# New TiVo Service Holiday Pricing



## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Hey all,

We wanted to give everyone a heads up on special prices for the TiVo Service, available now thru February 2nd, for new TiVo DVR purchases. I know some information was leaked early, that was unfortunate...we hate leaks. But now we can share more details.

Our monthly prices have been reduced. Were now offering a single reduced monthly price of $12.95/mo with a one year commitment.

If you'd rather avoid monthly payments, weve reduced all prepaid plans: $129 for one year, $249 for two years, and $299 for three years.

If you're an existing customer adding a new box, the best deal of all for that shiny new TiVo DVR is our Product Lifetime Special Price - $399. (Limited time only thru February 2nd for new activations.) Remember - you need to be an existing subscriber to get this.

Current subscribers adding another DVR to their account may also choose a one year prepay for $99 (instead of $129). Or, customers adding a new box under monthly billing get a Multi-Service Discount rate at a standard $9.95/mo (no more math).

All of the pricing applies to new DVR activations (not for DVRs already on service plans). The official page with the details is here.

With TiVoToGo and MRV now available on the dual tuner TiVo HD, it could be a great time to pick up another DVR or two. 

Pony


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## Marc (Jun 26, 1999)

Are there any official comments about the demise of the $6.95/month rate that had been available for the MSD with the 3-year contract?


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> Hey all,
> 
> With TiVoToGo and MRV now available on the dual tuner TiVo HD, it could be a great time to pick up another DVR or two.
> 
> Pony


This seems to increase the cost of MRV, while decreasing the price of pretty much everything else. Kind of unfortunate that Tivo is raising prices on the customers that buy the most Tivo service. Unless I'm misunderstand, the lowest price one can get for a second DVR is $99 for one year, or $8.33/month.

(And I won't even gripe about the return of lifetime for only $100 more than 3 years, which I just committed to. Don't suppose Tivo would allow me to convert . . . )


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Marc said:


> Are there any official comments about the demise of the $6.95/month rate that had been available for the MSD with the 3-year contract?


The old MSD price was $6 off of your qualifying plan. The new MSD pricing is a flat $9.95/mo.

The MSD change is not promotional, it will extend beyond February 2nd. If you already have a box at $6.95, we're not changing that box. But any new boxes added to a qualifying account will be at the $9.95 MSD if you choose monthly.

Pony


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

TiVoPony said:


> The MSD change is not promotional, it will extend beyond February 2nd. If you already have a box at $6.95, we're not changing that box. But any new boxes added to a qualifying account will be at the $9.95 MSD if you choose monthly.


Does this also apply to S1/S2's coming off their 1 year of free service after a lifetime transfer?

Also does the TiVo box have to be purchased off the TiVo web site to get the promotional pricing (including lifetime) or can they be purchased elsewhere and get the new price during activation?


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

DrewTivo said:


> (And I won't even gripe about the return of lifetime for only $100 more than 3 years, which I just committed to. Don't suppose Tivo would allow me to convert . . . )


If you're within the 30 day return period, call Tivo and tell them you'll return the old unit and immediately buy a new unit if they won't upgrade you to lifetime.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

morac said:


> Does this also apply to S1/S2's coming off their 1 year of free service after a lifetime transfer?
> 
> Also does the TiVo box have to be purchased off the TiVo web site to get the promotional pricing (including lifetime) or can they be purchased elsewhere and get the new price during activation?


I'll ask about the S1/S2 coming off 1 year free service, but yes, I do believe the $9.95 applies. Six dollars off the qualifying monthly service is no longer available.

No, you do not have to purchase your DVR from tivo.com. The new pricing plans apply to all new activations between 11/8/07 and 2/2/08.

Pony


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## jrog (Sep 5, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> The old MSD price was $6 off of your qualifying plan. The new MSD pricing is a flat $9.95/mo.
> 
> The MSD change is not promotional, it will extend beyond February 2nd. If you already have a box at $6.95, we're not changing that box. But any new boxes added to a qualifying account will be at the $9.95 MSD if you choose monthly.
> 
> Pony


Well, it's actually not better for multi users, and what about multi users with Lifetime units as well? It's still more money per month than it was before???

This is getting ridiculous. I'll need an abacus before the day is out to find out how much I will pay Tivo every year.


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## twassel (Feb 20, 2006)

Pony, thanks for the information. I have an S3 (already lifetime) with an S2 (nearing end of 1 year free service when I transferred my lifetime to the S3.) If I understand correctly, I can now buy another S3 or TivoHD and get lifetime service for $399 again, yes? While I doubt I'd do it for a single-tuner S2, can I also upgrade that to lifetime separately? (I think not, based on the post.)

As always, your input and clarifications are most welcome by all (or mostly all <g>) on this board.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

jrog said:


> Well, it's actually not better for multi users, and what about multi users with Lifetime units as well? It's still more money per month than it was before???
> 
> This is getting ridiculous. I'll need an abacus before the day is out to find out how much I will pay Tivo every year.


Maybe that's the plan. Confuse everyone until they all just shell out $400 for lifetime!


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## jrog (Sep 5, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> Maybe that's the plan. Confuse everyone until they all just shell out $400 for lifetime!


What's wrong with an all inclusive plan? If you have a lifetime unit that's active, then for 19.95 a month, add up to 5 additional Tivos. I mean, they are making money on the Tivos I buy at the store, right? or $25, whatever. The only reason I want more boxes is so that I can use multi-room viewing, and in order to even record HD, I have to rent more cable cards in those rooms too, cause you don't let us use the QAM in the clear.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

TexasAg said:


> Maybe that's the plan. Confuse everyone until they all just shell out $400 for lifetime!


Although that wouldn't be so bad. We're all wishing we paid $300 for lifetime back when it was available . . .

(as for my unit, I'm not sure it's worth upgrading a secondary S2DT 80GB to lifetime--we'll probably get HD next year when we move, and this is the box I'd ditch).


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## lwong (Mar 1, 2001)

I'm paying the $6.95/mo MSD right now for my Series3. Is my price going to change? Or am I grandfathered in at the price indefinitely?


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## brianlees (Apr 16, 2007)

Is lifetime even worth it? After three years, aren't we just going to replace these units anyway? Or, is itjust me that feels this way?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

lwong said:


> I'm paying the $6.95/mo MSD right now for my Series3. Is my price going to change? Or am I grandfathered in at the price indefinitely?


See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5677711&&#post5677711


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

If we are all confused, can you imagine how confused the billing folks at TiVo are? They still don't understand how to bill for the latest Lifetime transfer.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

This pricing is much more logical. I hope you can make it permanent pricing and not promotional. Tivo's tendency to change pricing every year is way too confusing.

I think $9.95 MSD is too much, but I guess it is reasonable.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

DrewTivo said:


> (And I won't even gripe about the return of lifetime for only $100 more than 3 years, which I just committed to. Don't suppose Tivo would allow me to convert . . . )


Our customer support team is aware that there will be situations like yours. While our policy is 30 days for returns, they do acknowledge that every situation is unique and adjustments may be necessary for some customers.

This forum isn't a proxy for our actual customer support team - I'm just one guy, and I don't have access to any of their tools. But if you call our customer support people with a reasonable explanation of your situation they should be able to determine whether anything can be done (note my vague wording...every situation really is different, and this post will be read by lots of people. I'd guess in Drew's specific case he has a pretty good shot at an adjustment).

Oh, and if any of you should call, don't say 'That TiVo guy online said I could have an adjustment!'. Just to be clear, I didn't. Because someone will say that I did. Even though I just clarified that I didn't. Thanks - it does happen. 

One last thing - our systems don't allow the first line of call center representatives to make these types of adjustments. There are other people that they'd pass you to. It may take some of your time. But you should still be nice to the first line folks! 

Pony


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## jrog (Sep 5, 2004)

brianlees said:


> Is lifetime even worth it? After three years, aren't we just going to replace these units anyway? Or, is itjust me that feels this way?


No, I no longer feel as though it's worth it. I have a Single Tuner S2 with lifetime that works perfectly fine, but is basically useless. I have a DTS2 that I pay $6, a month for that is slightly more useful, but still not that great.

I just sold my Lifetime S3 on ebay with the plans of getting 2 HDs and paying the monthly $6 per, but now I'm not so sure. I may just get a single HD and sell the lifetime S2. I don't know what to do, but I'm looking at getting as much of my money back from Tivo as possible, as lifetime is a joke, and while I've been a customer since 99, I'm investigating alternatives.


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## mazman (Nov 13, 2002)

I have multiple units on 3 year MSD at $6.95/mo. What happens to the price at the end of 3 years?


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## cjchaps (Oct 8, 2007)

TiVoPony said:


> All of the pricing applies to new DVR activations (not for DVRs already on service plans). The official page with the details is here.
> 
> Pony


Is the $399 lifetime information on there? I'm not seeing it?


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## icfleming (Mar 14, 2005)

Typical luck for me.

I just ordered a Tivo HD off of Amazon when I saw that Comcast increased the DVR price to $14 a month starting in November. Figured with with $6.95 MSD for 3 years that it was worth it. Now Tivo magically chooses to increase the price right after Comcast does.

Does anyone else find it convenient that the new pricing coincides with the increase from Comcast?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

brianlees said:


> Is lifetime even worth it? After three years, aren't we just going to replace these units anyway? Or, is it just me that feels this way?


 The fact that lifetime is tied to a particular box instead of your account makes it very risky and unattractive compared to 3 year pre-pay in my opinion. With pre-pay (or monthly) option you can move that service to other boxes if you choose making it much more flexible at the price of being more expensive over the long haul.

With these pricing changes for my current setup were I to start over it would now cost me $3/month more with 2 units: 
unit1 - $300 pre-pay --> same under new plan
unit2 - $9.95/month MSD --> under old plan this was $6.95/month


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

cjchaps said:


> Is the $399 lifetime information on there? I'm not seeing it?


You need to sign in to your account to see the MSD (and lifetime) pricing.


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## bigusmfan (Feb 20, 2002)

cjchaps said:


> Is the $399 lifetime information on there? I'm not seeing it?


Log in and if you're eligible you'll see that lifetime option.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

Yeah, I don't want to pile on, cause I really like TiVo and the pricing schedule does not confuse me really. But that's because of two main things: I know the value of TiVo, and I pretty much know what plan I want.

But for new customers, that never had a TiVo, and probably getting much simpler offers from cable and satellite.... I think it causes these customers to think too much about pricing, and less about the differentiators of TiVo vs. the generics.

With the others it's simple: Cost of the box + a monthly fee. Some offer the box for free, some charge a bit, some charge shipping. But the monthly fee is consistent.

I do recommend TiVo to friends, and the most difficult part of the discussion is the costs involved. It's just too much math, with them contrasting prepaid durations vs. value vs. use of the equipment. Especially if all they've had are the generics, you can see them (not because of cost, but just out of complexity and determining the best value for them)... they start leaning back to "why don't I just get the one from the cable company?"

I know TiVo spent time and resources to come up with these plans, so me ranting is not valuable. But for me, recommending TiVo to friends, it would be simpler with something like this:

The box costs $$$
The monthly service plan costs $$
1 year prepay is $$$, and you save $ over paying monthly
Lifetime service is $$$ (and always offer this for new and MSD)

-basically drop prepaids beyond 1 yr, and keep lifetime available for new customers and existing.

I like what you did for MSD monthly and prepaid.

Basically, make things as simple as you can for new customers. If you have to introduce complexity, do it in the MSD area, after you have them as a customer and the know the value of TiVo vs. the generics.

Those are just my thoughts, probably many people can punch holes in them.


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

What about people, like me, who purchased a Tivo a few days ago from Amazon, with the expectation that they would be eligible for the previous rates? 

Like $6.95mo MSD?


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

I was dumb enough to not put lifetime on my Series 2 in late 2003. Now I feel like I'm missing out again with these new plans appearing just after my Oct. 13 TiVo HD purchase.  Who knows what that thing will cost after my three-year prepay expires.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

"I was dumb enough to not put lifetime on my Series 2 in late 2003. Now I feel like I'm missing out again with these new plans appearing just after my Oct. 13 TiVo HD purchase."

You are still in the 30-day Money-Back-Guarantee period. You should call Tivo Customer Service because you should still be able to get Lifetime on the box you bought last month.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> I was dumb enough to not put lifetime on my Series 2 in late 2003. Now I feel like I'm missing out again with these new plans appearing just after my Oct. 13 TiVo HD purchase.  Who knows what that thing will cost after my three-year prepay expires.


October 13 is less than 30 days ago; you should be able to cancel the prepay service, get a full refund, and buy the lifetime plan if you want.

Of course you also probably removed your Series 2 from your account, and that'd need to go back before you could buy the lifetime plan for the TiVo HD (unless you've got other TiVo's on your account already), so the whole thing may be rather convoluted to work out, but if you're patient, you should be able to get it done. 

I'm not really sure $399 for lifetime is all that good a deal anymore... we'll have to wait and see if that value is retained on resale or not; there might be a general feeling that a lifetime deal of some sort will happen often enough that resale of older equipment with lifetime may take a price hit.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

bilbo said:


> "I was dumb enough to not put lifetime on my Series 2 in late 2003. Now I feel like I'm missing out again with these new plans appearing just after my Oct. 13 TiVo HD purchase."
> 
> You are still in the 30-day Money-Back-Guarantee period. You should call Tivo Customer Service because you should still be able to get Lifetime on the box you bought last month.


Yeah, see TivoPony's response to my post about that. I don't think I'm going to get lifetime, but I would if I had just bought an HD unit instead of a SD unit.


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## cjchaps (Oct 8, 2007)

I'm a new Tivo User and within 30 days of buying my plan. I originally signed up for a prepaid $299 3-year plan. With the newer pricing I figure it's probably a safer bet to get the $129 1 year prepaid plan in so that is what I just did. I asked about lifetime but as the rules state that is only a MSD so they wouldn't give that too me. Depending on what happens tivo may be losing money from me in the long run because they are not offering the lifetime to everyone.


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## wabin (Jan 17, 2003)

I asked this in a different thread, but perhaps tivoPony can give an official reply. If I buy a new tivo and activate lifetime, is there anything at all stopping me from turning around and giving it to my friend or family member, who would then follow the standard protocol of transferring the lifetime sub to themselves? The lifetime sub still follows the box, right? Or does it now get tied into the account as well?


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

I doubt TivoPony will come out and give you an official response, but Lifetime Service goes with the box (and I did take a quick look at the Lifetime Subscription terms which appear to have been unchanged). Tivo cannot stop you from giving a Lifetimed box to a friend or family member.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

"TiVo Package, Product Lifetime service

* Includes a Product Lifetime Subscription to the TiVo service which covers the life of the TiVo DVR you buy  not the life of the subscriber. The Product Lifetime Subscription accompanies the TiVo DVR in case of ownership transfer."


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## dhoward (Mar 15, 2002)

Ok. I presently have one S2DT on lifetime and a 2nd S2DT on the $6.95 month to month MSD. I was planning on buying a HDTivo and swapping the TSN with my month to month Tivo via my account. Will I still continue to pay $6.95 when I do that?


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

bilbo said:


> I doubt TivoPony will come out and give you an official response, but Lifetime Service goes with the box (and I did take a quick look at the Lifetime Subscription terms which appear to have been unchanged). Tivo cannot stop you from giving a Lifetimed box to a friend or family member.


I'll ask. I'm not aware of any changes to Product Lifetime, the slant of the Engadget post was new to me. But I'll ask.

Pony


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## willp2 (Sep 15, 2007)

So am I correct in understanding that Tivo won't let you change plans once you've signed up? If that's true that really is nuts.

With my cable TV, telephone, cell phone etc if a new rate comes along even if I am under contract I can reset my contract at the new rate and a new term.

I could see if the promotional rate is just for a few months, but to basically penalize users at a higher rate forever seems crazy.

Hopefully I just misunderstand what's happening here.

*Edit: Just got off the phone with Tivo and they changed me to the new rate! It took awhile, but they did it.*


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## greggt007 (Dec 9, 2005)

wabin said:


> I asked this in a different thread, but perhaps tivoPony can give an official reply. If I buy a new tivo and activate lifetime, is there anything at all stopping me from turning around and giving it to my friend or family member, who would then follow the standard protocol of transferring the lifetime sub to themselves? The lifetime sub still follows the box, right? Or does it now get tied into the account as well?


so then wont a ton of these pop up on ebay? i'll just buy some tivohd's from amazon, activate them lifetime, and people can buy them w/ lifetime and only need one box....sounds like a loophole

i myself am thinking about switching my 3yr prepaid from my hd to my toshiba w/ tivo basic, and then buying lifetime on the hd, is this possible?


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## SMWinnie (Aug 17, 2002)

Engadget suggests that the limited-time-offer lifetime service is a lifetime-MSD.

Right now, I have a lifetimed S2 and a TiVoHD on $7/mo MSD. I would seriously consider picking up a new TivoHD with lifetime if I could then give the lifetimed Series 2 to my in-laws, but only if that would leave me with a lifetimed TiVoHD and another TiVoHD on MSD.

Put another way, can the limited-time-only lifetime box be the full-price "first" box to get MSD on other boxen? (Is the limited-time-only Product Lifetime Subscription a "Qualifying Subscription" for MSD?) The Engadget article implies not and my plan would not work. The price plan details (note: must be logged in to see) at TiVo.com suggest that my plan would work.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Well, this changes the math somewhat on my move from DTiVos to FiOS with two new THDs and a S2DT (adding to a lifetime S1 still on my account).

While I'd love to buy-in to lifetime, I just won't be able to swing $1200 on top of the upfront cost of the boxes. I thought that my annual would be just $250 for service, signing each on to a three-year contract ($6.95 per month for each). While this would jump $100 annually if I went month to month, I only have to pay $47 more annually if I pre-pay the $99 for a year and my term is shorter. That strikes me as a fair trade.

Now, I would love it if I could opt out of/switch an annual plan (prorated of course) into Lifetime before the February deadline is up. While I'll be activating my new boxes in a couple of weeks, by Feb. I could have the funds to switch/pop for lifetime on the HDs. But if I understand correctly, lifetime must be selected at time of service start (or within 30 days of service start at most).


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## JustAllie (Jan 5, 2002)

dswallow said:


> I'm not really sure $399 for lifetime is all that good a deal anymore... we'll have to wait and see if that value is retained on resale or not; there might be a general feeling that a lifetime deal of some sort will happen often enough that resale of older equipment with lifetime may take a price hit.


Even when lifetime was regularly available from TiVo Inc. for $249 and then $299, units with lifetime were selling on eBay for at least $200 more than units without lifetime.

Personally, I think it's a reasonably good bet that a high-definition TiVo is worth putting lifetime service on, because it should retain its resale value for years into the future... or at least I hope so.

I think the question is less clear for a standard definition TiVo, but people keep saying that there will be folks using SDTV for years, so maybe it's still worth it.


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## hawgcaller (Nov 8, 2007)

TiVoPony said:


> If you're an existing customer adding a new box, the best deal of all for that shiny new TiVo DVR is our Product Lifetime Special Price - $399. (Limited time only thru February 2nd for new activations.) Remember - you need to be an existing subscriber to get this.
> 
> Pony


So non-Tivo customers who'd like to get a Tivo are just SOL? I've been a ReplayTV and Sony DHG owner for over 5 years and love the DVR concept. I don't like the monthly fee concept however and have been holding off on a Tivo since they cancelled the lifetime subscription. If I could get an HD Tivo with lifetime then Tivo becomes interesting again.

-phil


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Until an official and reasonable solution to Switched Digital Video is available I am very weary about buying a lifetime subscription on a S3/THD box.


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## desiboy (Oct 3, 2007)

What's Tivo policy on lifetime TivoHD box if the box fails prior to 4yr ... 3yr? breakeven time?

TiVo Pony?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

brianlees said:


> Is lifetime even worth it? After three years, aren't we just going to replace these units anyway? Or, is itjust me that feels this way?


Lifetime Service for $400 is a great deal if you want it. What features do you expect to be available in 3 years other than the fix for SDV?

The MSD increase to $9.95 on new TiVo's is probably the most discouraging item in the new pricing structure. I bet there'll be changes.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

well, luck is on my side this time.

I just got in on the free DT deal and signed up for 6.95 for three years. Seems the 3 year comittment works both ways  

I have been thinking of buying myself a HD for christmas and the lifetime offer makes me think about it harder. The math nowadays is 399/9.95 = 40 months to payoff


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'm a 3 tivo sort of house. One in the master bed, one in the living room, and one in the basement for the kids. 

I'm all set with the one lifetime and 2 MSD at 6.95 units I have. But this new pricing paradign with MSD pretty much means I'll never add a new Tivo to my account again and I'll just go to cable or satellite that much easier. I guess everyone's threshold is different but 10 bucks a box more a month for 2nd and 3rd boxes is just too much in my mind when DBS charges one price (i know they get you for the capital cost reduction on the lease) and cable is just simplier in life.

I love tivo and i wish them well but the annual price futzing is getting out of hand.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

desiboy said:


> What's Tivo policy on lifetime TivoHD box if the box fails prior to 4yr ... 3yr? breakeven time?
> 
> TiVo Pony?


i beleive you get the 1 year warrenty and then from there they have a lump sum payment for repair (which is like 100 or 150 if i recall but search for the real number). Seems the hands down most often thing that goes wrong in life are the drives dying and you can likely get a bigger and better drive yourself for less than the 150 when the time comes.


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## cajun100 (Oct 5, 2006)

I appreciate all here trying to sort this out, but I find it exhausting! I went to the Tivo site and read all the latest pricing info. Can someone answer this question for me, directly?

Current gear:
S2 Lifetime Sub
S2DT just completed 1-year prepay - has reverted to $16.95 monthly (too much !!!)

IF I cancel my S2DT sub right now, wait a couple months, and REACTIVATE the same box, does it qualify for MSD pricing ($9.95) as a NEW sub? I have already asked for a reversion to the new MSD rate. Answer so far: no.

Yes, I know all this seems illogical, but given the pricing changed as of last July I see no alternative other than simply giving up on the second box.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

hmmm, actually I have a month to month at 6.95 that I assume I can still transfer to a new box. So now the math is 399/6.95 = 57 months. That does not seem worth it to me in that light.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cajun100 said:


> I appreciate all here trying to sort this out, but I find it exhausting! I went to the Tivo site and read all the latest pricing info. Can someone answer this question for me, directly?
> 
> Current gear:
> S2 Lifetime Sub
> ...


just agree to the year term and it goes to 9.95 a month or 99$ prepay. There is no 6.95 MSD rate anymore.


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## qskapunk (Oct 16, 2007)

Anybody have any luck on getting the lifetime subscription after recently buying a 3-year plan?

I just bought a TiVo HD not even 2 weeks ago and just bought the 3-Year plan for $299, but I would love a lifetime subscription for $399.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Good thing I activated my Series 3 last month at the three year $6.95 plan.


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## elenaran (Oct 17, 2006)

TiVoPony said:


> I'll ask about the S1/S2 coming off 1 year free service


I'm in the same situation, TiVoPony, so I'm eager to hear if I can get my S2 on lifetime.


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## tmesser (Apr 12, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Good thing I activated my Series 3 last month at the three year $6.95 plan.


Same here. I feel like I got a deal, and it's $6/month less than it would be if I started from scratch today with my three boxes.


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

qskapunk said:


> Anybody have any luck on getting the lifetime subscription after recently buying a 3-year plan?
> 
> I just bought a TiVo HD not even 2 weeks ago and just bought the 3-Year plan for $299, but I would love a lifetime subscription for $399.


If that was your first Tivo, then it wouldn't be eligible for lifetime.

If it was your second, third, etc, then it would be eligible.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

hawgcaller said:


> So non-Tivo customers who'd like to get a Tivo are just SOL? I've been a ReplayTV and Sony DHG owner for over 5 years and love the DVR concept. I don't like the monthly fee concept however and have been holding off on a Tivo since they cancelled the lifetime subscription. If I could get an HD Tivo with lifetime then Tivo becomes interesting again.
> 
> -phil


If you want just one Lifetimed TiVo, yes, it seems that way, unless you buy a secondhand Lifetimed TiVo to qualify you for the New Lifetime deal.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

qskapunk said:


> Anybody have any luck on getting the lifetime subscription after recently buying a 3-year plan?
> 
> I just bought a TiVo HD not even 2 weeks ago and just bought the 3-Year plan for $299, but I would love a lifetime subscription for $399.


I activated a 3-year MSD less than a week ago. The Customer Service Representative took care of me. I've only paid $6.95 so far, so I am really not concerned if I get charged $392.05 or $399.00, but I assume it will be one of those two figures.

"hmmm, actually I have a month to month at 6.95 that I assume I can still transfer to a new box. So now the math is 399/6.95 = 57 months. That does not seem worth it to me in that light."

That's not the way I do the math:
It is $399 - $250.20 (36 months times $6.95 per month) = $148.80
$148.80 divided by $9.95 per month (after 3-year commitment) = 14.95 months
36 months + 14 months = 50 months

Two things aren't taken into account in the analysis -- the time value of money and the inherent value of a Tivo with Lifetime Service (the market value of one on EBay should give you a good approximation of what a Tivo with Lifetime is worth).

Personally, I am out less than $1,000 and a Lifetimed S3 sells for more than $1,000 on EBay, I believe (I'm not going to bother to look it up just for the sake of this post). And I haven't even sent in my $200 rebate. So, I would say that the Lifetime Service has already paid itself off.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

moyekj said:


> The fact that lifetime is tied to a particular box instead of your account makes it very risky and unattractive compared to 3 year pre-pay in my opinion. With pre-pay (or monthly) option you can move that service to other boxes if you choose making it much more flexible at the price of being more expensive over the long haul.
> 
> With these pricing changes for my current setup were I to start over it would now cost me $3/month more with 2 units:
> unit1 - $300 pre-pay --> same under new plan
> unit2 - $9.95/month MSD --> under old plan this was $6.95/month


+1 :up: Similar situation for us...and my thoughts exactly about lifetime service.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

brianlees said:


> Is lifetime even worth it? After three years, aren't we just going to replace these units anyway? Or, is itjust me that feels this way?


It depends on your perspective, DVR and/or program source.

The most common TiVo failure is the HDD, next the fan and PSU, which all can be replaced with no effect on Product Lifetime Status. Plus Tivo or the manufacturer can replace it and an retain Product Lifetime on the replacement unit. Not to mention there will likely be upgrade promos in the future, knock wood.

If the DVR is no longer usable with your programming source, it would have resale value to a user that can use it with their program source.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

hawgcaller said:


> So non-Tivo customers who'd like to get a Tivo are just SOL? I've been a ReplayTV and Sony DHG owner for over 5 years and love the DVR concept. I don't like the monthly fee concept however and have been holding off on a Tivo since they cancelled the lifetime subscription. If I could get an HD Tivo with lifetime then Tivo becomes interesting again.
> 
> -phil


I don't understand it either. It's *NUTS.*

The plans have been (somewhat) simplified. But then there's always a new wrinkle like no lifetime unless you are already a subscriber.

This is simply haphazard incompetence. Even Dr. Evil couldn't think of pricing schemes this convoluted.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Lifetime Service for $400 is a great deal if you want it. What features do you expect to be available in 3 years other than the fix for SDV?


I expect more online content and other features, and on-DVR audio/video podcasting, when MPEG4 gets enabled.


> The MSD increase to $9.95 on new TiVo's is probably the most discouraging item in the new pricing structure. I bet there'll be changes.


Depending on your perspective maybe.

I can accept the $99/Yr with no commitment beyond that.

I have a New TiVo here was going to possibly go MSD with two year commitment (which I really don't ant to do), but thought I'd hold off and see what transpired, and the Writer's Strike will also reduce the need for a 3rd (or 4th, if I can manage to use the 2nd tuner on a DT without cable) recorder.
That $99 offer opens things a little, for me.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bilbo said:


> That's not the way I do the math:


 I have a month to month with no contract that was around before this all started. No 3 year period involved



> Two things aren't taken into account in the analysis -- the time value of money and the inherent value of a Tivo with Lifetime Service (the market value of one on EBay should give you a good approximation of what a Tivo with Lifetime is worth).


 We have been over time value of money before - it works out to like 10$ total. Not a significant factor.

I have an S2 with Lifetime on it right now started 3 1/2 years ago . I do not think it will fetch much on ebay - maybe 200$


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## nocturne1 (Aug 17, 2004)

So I just bought a TivoHD 3 months ago under a 3 year commitment (MSD). And a DT just came off a 1 year pre-pay last month (and is now at $18ish/month....*grumble*).

The way I read this, the only way that I can get anything with lifetime is to buy a NEW unit? I can't transfer my commitment to my DT, and pay for lifetime on the HD?


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## Hockey9 (Jan 21, 2002)

Not sure if this has been mentioned but the lifetime is only applicable to box 2,3,etc and not the original TivoHD (in my case).. I waited on hold for about an hour and talked to 3 csr's.. They would not update or transfer lifetime to my origianl box.. I bought a tivoHD on sept 7,2007 with a 3yr prepay.

So it did not matter which plan I chose monthly,yearly or lifetime. They wont change the state on the first box..
They did offer to refund some of the $299 prepay 3yr and switch my only box to another plan.
YMMV


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## teavaux (Jun 29, 2007)

I have a refurbished S2DT that I bought in June from tivo.com in order to get the $12.95 monthly rate with a 1 year commitment. I went on-line and saw I am eligible for the lifetime price on the MSD.

If I buy a TivoHD, and buy the $299 lifetime on it, and I decide not to renew the service on the S2DT in June'08, am I left with a single TivoHD with lifetime, and no additional costs for the unit?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

cajun100 said:


> I appreciate all here trying to sort this out, but I find it exhausting! I went to the Tivo site and read all the latest pricing info. Can someone answer this question for me, directly?
> 
> Current gear:
> S2 Lifetime Sub
> ...


You should have been given the options of $6.95, 8.95, 10.95/mo for 1,2,3 yr terms repectively. Call and insist they charge you properly and offer you a choice of the options you had at the time they improperly converted your expired pre-pay. Ask for a supervisor, since the first level person probably won't have such authority/knowledge.


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## jerobi (Sep 28, 2000)

mazman said:


> I have multiple units on 3 year MSD at $6.95/mo. What happens to the price at the end of 3 years?


Given current trends, there will probably be a few more price changes by then. That, and you'll be paying in Euros.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

teavaux said:


> I have a refurbished S2DT that I bought in June from tivo.com in order to get the $12.95 monthly rate with a 1 year commitment. I went on-line and saw I am eligible for the lifetime price on the MSD.
> 
> If I buy a TivoHD, and buy the $299 lifetime on it, and I decide not to renew the service on the S2DT in June'08, am I left with a single TivoHD with lifetime, and no additional costs for the unit?


thta is correct (except the Lifetime is 399)


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I don't understand it either. It's *NUTS.*
> 
> The plans have been (somewhat) simplified. But then there's always a new wrinkle like no lifetime unless you are already a subscriber.
> 
> This is simply haphazard incompetence. Even Dr. Evil couldn't think of pricing schemes this convoluted.


It really doesn't do much for TiVo. While its better for new customers, it is worse for existing customers.

The new plan or strategy doesn't do much to address the fundamental problems with the TiVo offerings that have strangled sales.

It is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.


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## Blahman (Mar 4, 2002)

I have a Pioneer Tivo with DVD burner and Tivo Basic. 
My Series 3 is current Pre-Paid for 1 year.

Could I transfer my pre-paid service to the Pioneer?
Would the Series 3 unit then qualify for the Lifetime?


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## mpmclaugh33 (Dec 30, 2004)

This new pricing is disappointing to me. I just purchased a TivoHD and transferred my S2 lifetime to the TivoHD. Ultimately I will have 3 tivos running for the forseeable future. If I had just added the HD unit to my account it would have been $6.95 a month. Now that I transferred the lifetime, when the S2 1 yr prepay ends I could end up paying $9.95 a month or more on the S2 unit. What seemed like a good deal last week no longer does based on the higher per month price I will end up paying. It would seem fair to me that units coming off of pre-pay due to a lifetime transfer would be grandfathered in at the rate in effect at the time of the transfer. Just my opinion.


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## JustAllie (Jan 5, 2002)

Hockey9 said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned but the lifetime is only applicable to box 2,3,etc and not the original TivoHD (in my case).. I waited on hold for about an hour and talked to 3 csr's.. They would not update or transfer lifetime to my origianl box.. I bought a tivoHD on sept 7,2007 with a 3yr prepay.
> 
> So it did not matter which plan I chose monthly,yearly or lifetime. They wont change the state on the first box..
> They did offer to refund some of the $299 prepay 3yr and switch my only box to another plan.
> YMMV


That's your only TiVo?

I guess it really is a multi-service discount deal.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> It really doesn't do much for TiVo. While its better for new customers, it is worse for existing customers.


 I agree. From everything I've seen so far this new pricing in general is worse for existing customers with multiple Tivos. If anything Tivo should have made MSD more attractive as an incentive for existing Tivo customers to buy more units, especially now that MRV is released for S3/THD units.


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## mazman (Nov 13, 2002)

jerobi said:


> Given current trends, there will probably be a few more price changes by then. That, and you'll be paying in Euros.


So the monthly price after 3 years wouldn't stay locked in at $6.95/mo?


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## clark_kent (May 6, 2007)

TiVoPony-

I understand that "Lifetime Service goes with the box" but some retailers offer extended warranty so my questions is:

What happens to "Lifetime Service" if the "Lifetime Box" is replaced by a new different box?

Thank you.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

mazman said:


> So the monthly price after 3 years wouldn't stay locked in at $6.95/mo?


 That's right, it will no longer be locked in at $6.95. It's the end of your contract at which time you revert to the pricing scheme in place at that time your contract expires.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

moyekj said:


> I agree. From everything I've seen so far this new pricing in general is worse for existing customers with multiple Tivos. If anything Tivo should have made MSD more attractive as an incentive for existing Tivo customers to buy more units, especially now that MRV is released for S3/THD units.


There is a terrible irony that just as TiVo had a compelling proposition with MRV and $6.95 MSD, they chose to foreclose the possibility of driving growth with all its benefits by raising the price to $9.95.

Add on to the irony the poor/buggy 9.X software and the flaky operation of TTG coupled with the price increase.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

mazman said:


> So the monthly price after 3 years wouldn't stay locked in at $6.95/mo?


Well, the recent wording on TiVo's terms has been the lower of...

But what it says as of today????????? TiVo usually gets around to figuring out those details in their own sweet time.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

clark_kent said:


> TiVoPony-
> 
> I understand that "Lifetime Service goes with the box" but some retailers offer extended warranty so my questions is:
> 
> ...


uhhh, it goes with the box...


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

Blahman said:


> I have a Pioneer Tivo with DVD burner and Tivo Basic.
> My Series 3 is current Pre-Paid for 1 year.
> 
> Could I transfer my pre-paid service to the Pioneer?
> Would the Series 3 unit then qualify for the Lifetime?


You can transfer the pre paid, but it looks like the lifetime is just for new units, or at least newer units still in the 30 day trial period.


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## ursine1 (May 1, 2001)

Good god; must the TiVo pricing scheme be consistently confusing?

Question: I have a S1 with lifetime. If I buy a new HD I should qualify for the $399 lifetime, right? Then, in theory, I could give away (or sell) the S1, and nothing would change on the HD, since I've already paid the $399 for lifetime, right?


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## rlcarr (Jan 18, 2003)

Interesting.

When I go to the pricing page when I am *not* logged in to my tivo account, I see the $12.95 monthly plan and the 1-year, 2-year, and 3-year pre-paid plans for $129, $249, and $299.

When I log in to my tivo account and go to that page, all I see are the $9.95 MSD monthly plan, the $99 MSD one-year prepaid plan, and the $399 lifetime plan.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

rlcarr said:


> Interesting.
> 
> When I go to the pricing page when I am *not* logged in to my tivo account, I see the $12.95 monthly plan and the 1-year, 2-year, and 3-year pre-paid plans for $129, $249, and $299.
> 
> When I log in to my tivo account and go to that page, all I see are the $9.95 MSD monthly plan, the $99 MSD one-year prepaid plan, and the $399 lifetime plan.


Right, you have to log out again to buy the 2 or 3 year pre-pay.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

rlcarr said:


> Interesting.
> 
> When I go to the pricing page when I am *not* logged in to my tivo account, I see the $12.95 monthly plan and the 1-year, 2-year, and 3-year pre-paid plans for $129, $249, and $299.
> 
> When I log in to my tivo account and go to that page, all I see are the $9.95 MSD monthly plan, the $99 MSD one-year prepaid plan, and the $399 lifetime plan.


Well, the $99 one year plan for MSD is better than any of the prepays*, and you'll for sure be doing MSD if you have a Tivo account.

* I suppose it might be better to pay $299 now for 3 year prepay than to pay $99 for one year and then renew that twice, given that that offer may be gone before then.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

A personal example:

I intend to buy another TiVo HD (my 3rd). Previously I was going to add it to my account for $6.95. Now I will definitely sub it for an old $6.95 monthly S2.

TiVo loses $6.95/mo for as long as I might have kept the old S2 - which at $6.95/mo would have been quite a while.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

DrewTivo said:


> Well, the $99 one year plan for MSD is better than any of the prepays*, and you'll for sure be doing MSD if you have a Tivo account.
> 
> * I suppose it might be better to pay $299 now for 3 year prepay than to pay $99 for one year and then renew that twice, given that that offer may be gone before then.


A concern with the $99 one year is the unknown price after that. $299 locks in for 3 years. Imagine a 2yr $8.95 MSD coming off next year and only having a choice of going up to $9.95 ...


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

TiVoPony said:


> I'll ask about the S1/S2 coming off 1 year free service, but yes, I do believe the $9.95 applies. Six dollars off the qualifying monthly service is no longer available.
> 
> Pony


Any word on this? 
In my ideal world, I'd love it if TiVo would recognize the early adopter S3 owners & grandfather the MSD of $6.95 in.

Think of it this way, if I had known that giving up my MSD of $6.95 for a year would mean I'd end up paying $9.95 for the rest of the life of the S2, I don't think I would have taken the '0ne year of free service'

3 years @$6.95=$250.2 (staying on the MSD)

2 years @$9.95=$238.8 (1year free + 2years @$9.95)

After 3 years the MSD is a much better deal.....

Thanks for getting back to us/me on this!

eta HDTivo--I'm with you, I suspect if the $9.95 pricing is in effect, I'll take out my S2 & put my S1 back in service.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> I'll ask about the S1/S2 coming off 1 year free service, but yes, I do believe the $9.95 applies. Six dollars off the qualifying monthly service is no longer available.


For the case where a customer took the lifetime transfer special offer and received 12 mo of free service on their old box, I have asked what will happen when that box finishes the 12 months. The current answer is that it would go to $9.95/mo, the MSD rate at the time. The team is still looking at whether there are exceptions to this or not, I'll pass along anything new that I learn.

Pony


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> A personal example:
> 
> I intend to buy another TiVo HD (my 3rd). Previously I was going to add it to my account for $6.95. Now I will definitely sub it for an old $6.95 monthly S2.
> 
> TiVo loses $6.95/mo for as long as I might have kept the old S2 - which at $6.95/mo would have been quite a while.


Same here. I just received an S2DT Tuesday which I was expecting $6.95 msd. It's been giving me a little trouble so I wanted it stable before I activated. It was to hold a spot until I got an hd unit eventually.

I have a Toshiba on $6.95 msd so I guess I'll return the DT and just transfer the eventual hd onto the Toshiba's plan. I'll then just use the Toshiba with basic.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> The old MSD price was $6 off of your qualifying plan. The new MSD pricing is a flat $9.95/mo.
> 
> The MSD change is not promotional, it will extend beyond February 2nd. If you already have a box at $6.95, we're not changing that box. But any new boxes added to a qualifying account will be at the $9.95 MSD if you choose monthly.


So to add a 2nd TiVo to my existing environment now costs $9.95 for TiVo service, $6.95 for Comcast's "Additional Digital Outlet", and $1.50 per month for a 2nd CableCard. So now we're up to $18.40 per month - $220.80 per year excluding taxes - and I haven't even bought a TV yet. Say I spend $500 for a TV and expect it to last for 5 years. Over that time frame, I'll have spent a total of $1604 plus taxes just to watch TV.

This really, really doesn't make any sense. TiVo and Comcast both need to drastically reduce the prices of multiple TVs in a single household.

.../Ed


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## clark_kent (May 6, 2007)

Originally Posted by clark_kent
TiVoPony-

I understand that "Lifetime Service goes with the box" but some retailers offer extended warranty so my questions is:

What happens to "Lifetime Service" if the "Lifetime Box" is replaced by a new different box?

Thank you.



HDTiVo said:


> uhhh, it goes with the box...


I can't imagine that if a "Lifetime Box" has a failure and then gets replace with a brand new box (extended warranty) that "Lifetime Service" just disappears and you get to buy new service...

TiVoPony-

Could you please clarify the issue?

Thank you.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

twassel said:


> Pony, thanks for the information. I have an S3 (already lifetime) with an S2 (nearing end of 1 year free service when I transferred my lifetime to the S3.) If I understand correctly, I can now buy another S3 or TivoHD and get lifetime service for $399 again, yes? While I doubt I'd do it for a single-tuner S2, can I also upgrade that to lifetime separately? (I think not, based on the post.)
> 
> As always, your input and clarifications are most welcome by all (or mostly all <g>) on this board.


Yes, you can purchase another box, add it to your account, and for $399 have Product Lifetime on on that second, third, fourth, or fifth box.

If you have a box on your account that does not have a current contract commitment, Product Lifetime may be purchased for that box as well. If it has any commitments on it (it's still under a contract, it's not month to month) Product Lifetime is not available.

In your specific case, the 'free 12 mo service' box may technically be considered as 'under contract' by our systems. I don't have an answer for you on that specific case yet...working on it.

Obviously, we look forward to taking your $399. Give me a bit of time and we'll figure out the smoothest way for that to happen. 

Pony


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

dwit said:


> What about people, like me, who purchased a Tivo a few days ago from Amazon, with the expectation that they would be eligible for the previous rates?
> 
> Like $6.95mo MSD?


Yes, the current rate for MSD would apply, which is $9.95/mo. I've passed your comment along to the team, they'll take a look if any change to policy would make sense here, but the current policy is $9.95 for MSD.

Pony


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> If you have a box on your account that does not have a current contract commitment, Product Lifetime may be purchased for that box as well. If it has any commitments on it (it's still under a contract, it's not month to month) Product Lifetime is not available.


so I have a DT I bought under a 1 year of service bundle plan.

Questions
1. If I did nothing, then would that DT box go to 9.95 a month come January?

2. once that year ends (In January) I could buy lifetime for it since it would just be a month to month until I did something.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

lwong said:


> I'm paying the $6.95/mo MSD right now for my Series3. Is my price going to change? Or am I grandfathered in at the price indefinitely?


You are grandfathered at $6.95/mo MSD for that box, as long as you have a second box on your account that acts as the qualifying box.

If you remove the qualifying box, MSD doesn't apply anymore (same as it's always been).

If you add a third box to your account, it's MSD is $9.95. Your second, grandfathered box would remain at $6.95 though.

If instead of adding a third box to your account, you chose to replace the grandfathered $6.95 box with a different DVR, you can do that. The new box would be at $6.95/mo and the old box wouldn't have service.

So basically...how ever many boxes are on your account at the old MSD rate, that's how many you can have in the future at the old MSD rate. Anything beyond that would be at the new MSD rate. And if your account no longer qualifies for MSD (because you canceled it for a bit, or dropped down to a single box, etc) then your grandfathered status goes away too. So keep your account MSD-capable. 

Pony


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

TiVoPony said:


> For the case where a customer took the lifetime transfer special offer and received 12 mo of free service on their old box, I have asked what will happen when that box finishes the 12 months. The current answer is that it would go to $9.95/mo, the MSD rate at the time. The team is still looking at whether there are exceptions to this or not, I'll pass along anything new that I learn.
> 
> Pony


Thank you. Seriously, I do appreciate Tivo having someone on the boards responding to our questions.



TiVoPony said:


> Obviously, we look forward to taking your $399. Give me a bit of time and we'll figure out the smoothest way for that to happen.
> 
> Pony


Best laugh all day-- 

(it's been a boring day)


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## Blahman (Mar 4, 2002)

dwit said:


> Blahman said:
> 
> 
> > I have a Pioneer Tivo with DVD burner and Tivo Basic.
> ...


If that is truly the case, then that bites. Heck, all I would really want is the lifetime on the S3, only reason for even doing something like that would be to get S3 lifetime as I don't really have another TV to connect the other one to. Although I suppose it would be good for conflicting Analog recordings.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

wabin said:


> I asked this in a different thread, but perhaps tivoPony can give an official reply. If I buy a new tivo and activate lifetime, is there anything at all stopping me from turning around and giving it to my friend or family member, who would then follow the standard protocol of transferring the lifetime sub to themselves? The lifetime sub still follows the box, right? Or does it now get tied into the account as well?


I've confirmed that nothing has changed in our approach to Product Lifetime Service. If you buy it, it stays with the box, and you may transfer/sell/gift/trade/barter/gamble that box to anyone you'd like. Product Lifetime Service stays with the box.

As far as being able to gift TiVo DVR's with Lifetime Service included, that's something the team is aware of and may support soon. Or not. I can't say definitively either way just yet. But it's being looked at. 

Pony


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I'm going to call TiVo and see if I can convert my 3-year commitment started in June, to a lifetime. I hope they'll go for it, even though I can't blame them if they don't. 

EDIT: or maybe I'll just go ahead and get a THD instead...


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

Blahman said:


> If that is truly the case, then that bites. Heck, all I would really want is the lifetime on the S3, only reason for even doing something like that would be to get S3 lifetime as I don't really have another TV to connect the other one to. Although I suppose it would be good for conflicting Analog recordings.


I may have spoken too early. A couple posts up, TivoPony seems to indicate that any unit not bound by contract is eligible for the lifetime.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

ewilts said:


> So to add a 2nd TiVo to my existing environment now costs $9.95 for TiVo service, $6.95 for Comcast's "Additional Digital Outlet", and $1.50 per month for a 2nd CableCard. So now we're up to $18.40 per month - $220.80 per year excluding taxes - and I haven't even bought a TV yet. Say I spend $500 for a TV and expect it to last for 5 years. Over that time frame, I'll have spent a total of $1604 plus taxes just to watch TV.
> 
> This really, really doesn't make any sense. TiVo and Comcast both need to drastically reduce the prices of multiple TVs in a single household.
> 
> .../Ed


This is one of the major reasons I stay with Directv. Each addtional box only costs me $5 extra a month. If you are only a one TV house then cable\tivo can be competitive.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

desiboy said:


> What's Tivo policy on lifetime TivoHD box if the box fails prior to 4yr ... 3yr? breakeven time?
> 
> TiVo Pony?


We don't take the service away if the box lasts far beyond that (Lots of eight year old Series1's out there). So Product Lifetime is your personal belief on how long the box will still be useful to you.

If the box fails and you have it repaired or replaced by an authorized source (see tivo.com for the official legalese), the lifetime service is maintained. If you just go out and buy another box to replace the old one, lifetime doesn't continue. It's for the life of the box.

Pony


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

dwit said:


> Same here. I just received an S2DT Tuesday which I was expecting $6.95 msd. It's been giving me a little trouble so I wanted it stable before I activated. It was to hold a spot until I got an hd unit eventually.
> 
> I have a Toshiba on $6.95 msd so I guess I'll return the DT and just transfer the eventual hd onto the Toshiba's plan. I'll then just use the Toshiba with basic.


I have an S3 with Lifetime and I have two S2 units at $6.95 per month. One is the old MSD at $6.95 with no commitment and the other is the new MSD at $6.95 with three year commitment. I want to sub a new TivoHD for the one with no commitment and maybe another for the second one as well. Has Pony confirmed we can do this?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> uhhh, it goes with the box...


Not if the unit is replaced under an authorized extended warranty (such as BestBuy's) which is exactly what the OP is asking about.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Ok, this seems to clear it up. Helps to read all of the posts!



TiVoPony said:


> You are grandfathered at $6.95/mo MSD for that box, as long as you have a second box on your account that acts as the qualifying box.
> 
> If you remove the qualifying box, MSD doesn't apply anymore (same as it's always been).
> 
> ...


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

cajun100 said:


> I appreciate all here trying to sort this out, but I find it exhausting! I went to the Tivo site and read all the latest pricing info. Can someone answer this question for me, directly?
> 
> Current gear:
> S2 Lifetime Sub
> ...


You don't have to wait a couple of months. Your S2DT is off of any service contract commitment, so you can call today and convert it to $9.95 MSD (does require a one year commitment on that box).

Pony


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

larrs said:


> I have an S3 with Lifetime and I have two S2 units at $6.95 per month. One is the old MSD at $6.95 with no commitment and the other is the new MSD at $6.95 with three year commitment. I want to sub a new TivoHD for the one with no commitment and maybe another for the second one as well. Has Pony confirmed we can do this?


It's pretty much a given that any plan except lifetime can be transferred among different units.

Just log in to your Tivo account and the selections on the left side of the page has the Transfer Service Number option.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

The last pricing was awful and we all *****ed about it for days. This seems very straightforward to the unclean masses (non-forum members  ). 

As for me, even at the $9.95 plus $3.98 for two cablecards would still put me at the same price as a cableco DVR monthly and it is worth the $279 upfront for a tivoHD to me for the diff between Tivo and the SA crap interface. 

Much simpler to understand though, and I really like the lack of commitments for new customers. It should help sell more boxes.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

nocturne1 said:


> So I just bought a TivoHD 3 months ago under a 3 year commitment (MSD). And a DT just came off a 1 year pre-pay last month (and is now at $18ish/month....*grumble*).
> 
> The way I read this, the only way that I can get anything with lifetime is to buy a NEW unit? I can't transfer my commitment to my DT, and pay for lifetime on the HD?


Well, because both of your DVR's currently have service, it is a little tricky. I'd suggest calling customer support. Essentially you'd be canceling your 3 year commit on the HD, buying Product Lifetime on that, and signing up for a minimum 1 year at $12.95 on the DT. There's typically a cancellation fee involved with dropping the commitment on the HD, but if you're nice they may be able to accomodate you in some way. Your case is probably worth a call.

Pony


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> Yes, the current rate for MSD would apply, which is $9.95/mo. I've passed your comment along to the team, they'll take a look if any change to policy would make sense here, but the current policy is $9.95 for MSD.
> 
> Pony


Thank you.

I know recently there have been many Tivo deals and thousands must have been bought/sold/ordered during the last week or so in anticipation of receiving the rates listed when ordered.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> A concern with the $99 one year is the unknown price after that. $299 locks in for 3 years. Imagine a 2yr $8.95 MSD coming off next year and only having a choice of going up to $9.95 ...


Right. Given the risk that Tivo will change its rates again, it may be safer to lock in. Perhaps one can buy 3 one-year subscriptions up front?


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

larrs said:


> The last pricing was awful and we all *****ed about it for days. This seems very straightforward to the unclean masses (non-forum members  ).


It's much simpler, except for people with service caught in the transition.

All the year+ commitments look different when faced with a different pricing regime after the contract is up.

And MSD price increase? :down: :down: :down:


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

DrewTivo said:


> Right. Given the risk that Tivo will change its rates again, it may be safer to lock in. Perhaps one can buy 3 one-year subscriptions up front?


That is the prepaid 3yr $299 plan.


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## HiddenID (Nov 8, 2007)

Not that I should have to worry (about either being spammed or my account being changed), but I created a new ID to make this post.

The plans make things easier for me.....easier to never have more than one box in our household. I had two STS2 boxes when my wife and I desperately needed to cut recurring monthly costs. We decided we would cancel our TiVo service (various monthlies since 2001.....never lifetime....oh well....). Anyways, TiVo agreed to let us retain one box at $6.95 in perpetuity. This was NOT a call to pretend to want to cancel and see what I could get. It was legitimate and Customer Service/Retention made a decision for us.

Anyways, I eventually purchased a DTS2 from E-bay and "replaced" the remaining box on my account with the new box.

I hope to have a new HDTV (currently just a 27inch analog Sony) soon (the BF prices are already starting to look great). When I do that, I'll want to upgrade to the TiVo HD. I will obviously buy this at retail/online and not direct from TiVo so that I can do a box replacement again. A TiVo HD at $6.95 a month in perpetuity seems great.

At that rate, it would take me just under 5 years to break even with the LT pricing of $399.

I guess once a single box monthly, always a single box monthly.

This will be my first and only post on this id.

Do I get to celebrate a 1 YAMM?


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## chazas (Jan 18, 2007)

TiVoPony said:


> Yes, the current rate for MSD would apply, which is $9.95/mo. I've passed your comment along to the team, they'll take a look if any change to policy would make sense here, but the current policy is $9.95 for MSD.
> 
> Pony


Looking forward to this one - I bought 2 additional HDs to replace my the FIOS boxes in my bedroom and gym yesterday morning and they were delivered today. Arrgh. :down:


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

DrewTivo said:


> And MSD price increase? :down: :down: :down:


I'll agree with you on that point, but I am not really sure it is an increase. Under the last pricing it ranged from $6.95 for a 3 year commit up to $13.95 per month IIRC.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I would think if you purchased within the last few days with the expectation of getting $6.95, then you should be grandfathered in. If you purchased from Amazon, or wherever, you should not be penalized for how long it takes for a box to be shipped to you. 

I'll toss out there that any box purchased, regardless of where, prior to the new pricing, should be able to get the $6.95 MSD. I would be rather pissed....no......extremely pissed if I were buying a second box, ordered, say 1 week ago, and then got it at home, opened it, activated it, and lo and behold my MSD option is $9.95.

There HAS to be some give here.


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## desiboy (Oct 3, 2007)

TivoPony Thanks for the response.

I went over the web page and looked up 'legalese' but cant answer this question: I have a lifesub on S2 and an ext warranty from BestBuy . If my S2 fails (HDD for instance), does BB send it to TiVo and pay for the costs... or would TiVo transfer Lifetime to a new box BB may give me at the store?

Others, any ext warranty experience w/lifetime units?



TiVoPony said:


> We don't take the service away if the box lasts far beyond that (Lots of eight year old Series1's out there). So Product Lifetime is your personal belief on how long the box will still be useful to you.
> 
> If the box fails and you have it repaired or replaced by an authorized source (see for the official legalese), the lifetime service is maintained. If you just go out and buy another box to replace the old one, lifetime doesn't continue. It's for the life of the box.
> Pony


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

larrs said:
 

> The last pricing was awful and we all *****ed about it for days. This seems very straightforward to the unclean masses (non-forum members  ).
> 
> As for me, even at the $9.95 plus $3.98 for two cablecards would still put me at the same price as a cableco DVR monthly and it is worth the $279 upfront for a tivoHD to me for the diff between Tivo and the SA crap interface.
> 
> Much simpler to understand though, and I really like the lack of commitments for new customers. It should help sell more boxes.


I agree and definitely think this is a very good change as far as pricing goes.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> As far as being able to gift TiVo DVR's with Lifetime Service included, that's something the team is aware of and may support soon. Or not. I can't say definitively either way just yet. But it's being looked at.
> 
> Pony


What is the resistance within TiVo to offering the $399 LT to everyone (esp. for THDs and S3s?)


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ah30k said:


> Not if the unit is replaced under an authorized extended warranty (such as BestBuy's) which is exactly what the OP is asking about.


I misread his question. Sorry.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

larrs said:


> The last pricing was awful and we all *****ed about it for days. This seems very straightforward to the unclean masses (non-forum members  ).
> 
> As for me, even at the $9.95 plus $3.98 for two cablecards would still put me at the same price as a cableco DVR monthly and it is worth the $279 upfront for a tivoHD to me for the diff between Tivo and the SA crap interface.
> 
> Much simpler to understand though, and I really like the lack of commitments for new customers. It should help sell more boxes.


I'll take the "complexity" and the $3/mo.



larrs said:


> I'll agree with you on that point, but I am not really sure it is an increase. Under the last pricing it ranged from $6.95 for a 3 year commit up to $13.95 per month IIRC.


This part you are right about, but if you are sophisticated, you are not buying the $249 box to keep it short term, so the $6.95 is most relevent. The knowledgeable TiVo customer is in it for the long term.



jlb said:


> I would think if you purchased within the last few days with the expectation of getting $6.95, then you should be grandfathered in. If you purchased from Amazon, or wherever, you should not be penalized for how long it takes for a box to be shipped to you.
> 
> I'll toss out there that any box purchased, regardless of where, prior to the new pricing, should be able to get the $6.95 MSD. I would be rather pissed....no......extremely pissed if I were buying a second box, ordered, say 1 week ago, and then got it at home, opened it, activated it, and lo and behold my MSD option is $9.95.
> 
> There HAS to be some give here.


I think TiVo has been flexible in this way in the past


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

jlb said:


> I would think if you purchased within the last few days with the expectation of getting $6.95, then you should be grandfathered in. If you purchased from Amazon, or wherever, you should not be penalized for how long it takes for a box to be shipped to you.
> 
> I'll toss out there that any box purchased, regardless of where, prior to the new pricing, should be able to get the $6.95 MSD. I would be rather pissed....no......extremely pissed if I were buying a second box, ordered, say 1 week ago, and then got it at home, opened it, activated it, and lo and behold my MSD option is $9.95.
> 
> There HAS to be some give here.


You said it the way I really wanted to. There's got to be thousands in that boat.

I think the S2DT was the #1 sales rank for a while at Amazon. They came bundled with a Gift Certificate and the certificates were back ordered for a while.


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## SMWinnie (Aug 17, 2002)

SMWinnie said:


> Engadget suggests that the limited-time-offer lifetime service is a lifetime-MSD.
> 
> Right now, I have a lifetimed S2 and a TiVoHD on $7/mo MSD. I would seriously consider picking up a new TivoHD with lifetime if I could then give the lifetimed Series 2 to my in-laws, but only if that would leave me with a lifetimed TiVoHD and another TiVoHD on MSD.
> 
> Put another way, can the limited-time-only lifetime box be the full-price "first" box to get MSD on other boxen? (Is the limited-time-only Product Lifetime Subscription a "Qualifying Subscription" for MSD?) The Engadget article implies not and my plan would not work. The price plan details (note: must be logged in to see) at TiVo.com suggest that my plan would work.


To follow up, at least one Engadget poster indicates that he called TiVo to take advantage of the offer and was told that the $399 lifetime offer was an MSD discount.

So, I remain curious. To obtain this new limited-time-offer Product Lifetime Service for a new TiVo, that TiVo needs to be added to an account where it would be MSD-eligible. (There needs to be another box with a "Qualifying Subscription" on the account.) *After* getting the new box added to the account, can the new box be the "Qualifying Subscription" supporting MSD for other boxes on the account?

Why is this relevant? Well, gifts are obvious (e.g., I might give my lifetimed "Qualifying Subscription" S2 to my in-laws) but there are other reasons. For instance, you might have a lifetimed (but not grandfathered) S1 "qualifying" some other TiVoes for MSD. Adding another lifetimed box is insurance against having to pay monthly if the S1's motherboard gets fried.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

larrs said:


> I'll agree with you on that point, but I am not really sure it is an increase. Under the last pricing it ranged from $6.95 for a 3 year commit up to $13.95 per month IIRC.


Fair point, but for Tivo's most loyal customers with the greatest numbers of Tivos, the price is going up, as most of them likely did commit.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

SMWinnie said:


> To follow up, at least one Engadget poster indicates that he called TiVo to take advantage of the offer and was told that the $399 lifetime offer was an MSD discount.
> 
> So, I remain curious. To obtain this new limited-time-offer Product Lifetime Service for a new TiVo, that TiVo needs to be added to an account where it would be MSD-eligible. (There needs to be another box with a "Qualifying Subscription" on the account.) *After* getting the new box added to the account, can the new box be the "Qualifying Subscription" supporting MSD for other boxes on the account?


Product Lifetime can only be added to an additional box on an MSD eligible account. That's to purchase Product Lifetime.

That doesn't mean that you can't gift or sell that box and it's lifetime service to someone else afterwards:

Link to earlier post on this

Pony


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

HiddenID said:


> Not that I should have to worry (about either being spammed or my account being changed), but I created a new ID to make this post.
> 
> The plans make things easier for me.....easier to never have more than one box in our household. I had two STS2 boxes when my wife and I desperately needed to cut recurring monthly costs. We decided we would cancel our TiVo service (various monthlies since 2001.....never lifetime....oh well....). Anyways, TiVo agreed to let us retain one box at $6.95 in perpetuity. This was NOT a call to pretend to want to cancel and see what I could get. It was legitimate and Customer Service/Retention made a decision for us.
> 
> ...


Everyone who has ever had an MSD box has had to have a full rate box of some sort first. I understand you have to go the other way - pay full rate or if your old box is "Qualifying" pay $9.95, and that can add some resistance, but really, you would be paying the same or less than anyone else overall. So what's the problem?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Can somebody explain why a 3 year pre-paid plan at $299 would be better than lifetime at $399?

Wouldn't you have to start paying something again at 3 years and 1 day, plus you have no saved value in the fact that you can sell your box with lifetime for a good chunk of the lifetime value?

-smak-


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Oh, and Pony please figure out what the options are for us with the 12 months of free service are on last year's xfer as soon as you can.

-smak-


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

smak said:


> Can somebody explain why a 3 year pre-paid plan at $299 would be better than lifetime at $399?
> 
> Wouldn't you have to start paying something again at 3 years and 1 day, plus you have no saved value in the fact that you can sell your box with lifetime for a good chunk of the lifetime value?
> 
> -smak-


1) If it's your first TiVo you can't pay $399 for lifetime; you have to first buy a TiVo and pay for some plan... the cheapest probably being $129 for 1 year prepaid. THEN you can buy a second TiVo and pay $399 for lifetime service. And after the first year, your prepaid unit will switch to the MSD rate (or, maybe, you can return the unit, and cancel the plan if within the first 30 days).

2) You can afford $299 but not $399. (i.e., a good deal is a deal you can afford)

3) You only conceive of needing one TiVo and want the flexibility of changing your hardware out when/if a new model is introduced without having to start paying an additional subscription fee.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

larrs said:


> The last pricing was awful and we all *****ed about it for days. This seems very straightforward to the unclean masses (non-forum members  ).
> 
> As for me, even at the $9.95 plus $3.98 for two cablecards would still put me at the same price as a cableco DVR monthly and it is worth the $279 upfront for a tivoHD to me for the diff between Tivo and the SA crap interface.
> 
> Much simpler to understand though, and I really like the lack of commitments for new customers. It should help sell more boxes.


I agree; it's much easier to understand.

FWIW, Comcast's price, when a customer gets additional STB's, increases; additional DVRs [or STB's] cost the same as the first one (a DVR is currently $13.95 mo.; a HDTV STB $6.50) *plus* a $5.10 monthly _Additional Outlet Fee_ for each addtional box.

TiVo's corporate mentality essentially favors bean counting, not unlike Google. Both enterprises are exceedingly good at what they do but can nontheless be infuriating when appearing overly manipulative.

Had I known the future I could have saved approx. $140. on what I just paid (on eBay) for a HD TiVo w/ Lifetime Service.

But y'know, so what!

TiVo is a truly useful great toy but is still basically a (relatively cheap) luxury item. Back in the days when Kay Thode and Ray Tube used to dance on their $300. 17" B&W screen, watching TV was just as much fun. Some of the programs were, if not actually better, certainly more memorable.

So why not just go with the flow? TiVo is the last survivor in the non-affiliated (standalone) DVR game! They gotta' be doing something right!


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

clark_kent said:


> TiVoPony-
> 
> I understand that "Lifetime Service goes with the box" but some retailers offer extended warranty so my questions is:
> 
> ...


After warranty replaces the box, Lifetime can be transferred to the replacement box.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

Thanks Pony, replying to this thread alone is probably a full time day job. It's been difficult to keep track Tivo's pricing up till now. I like this new change towards a simpler policy.


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## scoombs (Jun 23, 2002)

I read the thread and did not see a specific reference to this case, so...I currently have an S1 with no service plan. If I activate say a 1-year pre-paid, does it constitute a qualifying existing unit for lifetime eligibility if I then buy a THD? If so, I can then let service lapse again on the S1?


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

I would say that would work, TiVo is the "service not the box.


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

I might let a month go by, before adding the S3, to be safe.


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

dswallow said:


> October 13 is less than 30 days ago; you should be able to cancel the prepay service, get a full refund, and buy the lifetime plan if you want.
> 
> Of course you also probably removed your Series 2 from your account, and that'd need to go back before you could buy the lifetime plan for the TiVo HD (unless you've got other TiVo's on your account already), so the whole thing may be rather convoluted to work out, but if you're patient, you should be able to get it done.


I do still have my four year old S2 on its annoying 12.95/month that I foolishly didn't lifetime originally. With my THD purchase, I was probably going to retire that one. However, now it sounds like it would be the needed basis for being able to possibly convert my three-year prepaid into this new lifetime offering. Could I still drop the S2's service a month or two down the road and have the THD's lifetime be fine?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Could I still drop the S2's service a month or two down the road and have the THD's lifetime be fine?


As I understand it, you only need it there to purchase the Lifetime service and once that's done you could remove the other receiver from your account (and even just add it back in at a reduced MSD rate).


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## Thos19 (Dec 31, 2002)

I transfered lifetime on December 1, 2006 from my series 1 to my series 3. Since my pre-paid 1yr on my series 1 runs out on November 30th, I'll have to pay $9.95/mo to keep the series 1 subscription?

Boo. I haven't been this disappointed since software 9.2 glitched my cable cards in my series 3!  :down: 

Thos.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Thos19 said:


> I transfered lifetime on December 1, 2006 from my series 1 to my series 3. Since my pre-paid 1yr on my series 1 runs out on November 30th, I'll have to pay $9.95/mo to keep the series 1 subscription?
> 
> Boo. I haven't been this disappointed since software 9.2 glitched my cable cards in my series 3!  :down:
> 
> Thos.


Well, previously you'd have to pay $10.95/month (the 1-year rate of $16.95/month less the $6/month multi-service discount). So you're saving $1.00/month under the new plan.

Those that committed to 2 or 3 years are the ones that'll be paying more.

BTW, there's little/no advantage to keeping the Series 1 around. At least replace it with a Series 2 so you can use the various multi-room video features.


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## MapleLeaf (Oct 12, 2007)

dswallow said:


> As I understand it, you only need it there to purchase the Lifetime service and once that's done you could remove the other receiver from your account (and even just add it back in at a reduced MSD rate).


Hmm... then ethics aside, if you didn't already have any Tivos and wanted one with product lifetime, what's to prevent you from doing the following?

1) Buy two Tivos from someplace that offers a liberal return policy (Costco comes to mind).
2) Activate the first one at month-to-month for $12.95/month. This now becomes your "qualifying DVR" for MSD purposes.
3) Purchase product lifetime on the second Tivo.
4) Within 30 days, cancel the service on the first DVR and return it for a full refund.

I didn't go over the fine print of the new pricing plan, so maybe there's something in there that precludes this scenario. Perhaps the qualifying DVR has to have been purchased and/or activated before 11/8/2007? Perhaps you can't purchase product lifetime on the second DVR unless you commit to at least one year on the qualifying DVR? Or perhaps the (relatively quick) cancellation of the service on the qualifying DVR somehow invalidates the lifetime purchased on the second DVR?

Note that I'm not advocating this or even interested in doing it (I already have multiple Tivos that would count as a qualifying DVR), but it just piqued my curiousity if this was a possible loophole to get around the limitation that product lifetime was only available on your second, third, fourth, etc. units.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

MapleLeaf said:


> Hmm... then ethics aside, if you didn't already have any Tivos and wanted one with product lifetime, what's to prevent you from doing the following?
> 
> 1) Buy two Tivos from someplace that offers a liberal return policy (Costco comes to mind).
> 2) Activate the first one at month-to-month for $12.95/month. This now becomes your "qualifying DVR" for MSD purposes.
> ...


With HD Lifetime transfer offer wasn't there a 60+ day wait to prevent just this sort of thing?


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

scoombs said:


> I read the thread and did not see a specific reference to this case, so...I currently have an S1 with no service plan. If I activate say a 1-year pre-paid, does it constitute a qualifying existing unit for lifetime eligibility if I then buy a THD? If so, I can then let service lapse again on the S1?


I believe a one year pre-paid plan on the S1 would act as a qualifier for MSD, allowing you to purchase a TiVo HD and get Product Lifetime Service on it.

There are cancellation penalties for stopping a contract early, so I'm not sure you'd benefit by allowing the S1 service to lapse.

Pony


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## Heinrich (Feb 28, 2002)

I'm feeling really stupid. For some reason I paid more than anyone in this forum. Perhaps in the world. I bought a Series 3 in January and I paid $199 for 1 year.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

dswallow said:


> BTW, there's little/no advantage to keeping the Series 1 around. At least replace it with a Series 2 so you can use the various multi-room video features.


Except that most Series 1s can record by date/time unsubbed.
So you could use it as a backup or for occasional conflicts.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so I have a DT I bought under a 1 year of service bundle plan.
> 
> Questions
> 1. If I did nothing, then would that DT box go to 9.95 a month come January?
> ...


Not sure that there's enough information here to answer your question. For example, is this the only DVR on the account, and if not, what are the service plans for the others?

If it's the only box on the account, the answers are:

1. No, it would go to $12.95/mo
2. No, not unless you added another box to your account

Pony


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

dswallow said:


> 1) If it's your first TiVo you can't pay $399 for lifetime; you have to first buy a TiVo and pay for some plan... the cheapest probably being $129 for 1 year prepaid. THEN you can buy a second TiVo and pay $399 for lifetime service. And after the first year, your prepaid unit will switch to the MSD rate (or, maybe, you can return the unit, and cancel the plan if within the first 30 days).
> 
> 2) You can afford $299 but not $399. (i.e., a good deal is a deal you can afford)
> 
> 3) You only conceive of needing one TiVo and want the flexibility of changing your hardware out when/if a new model is introduced without having to start paying an additional subscription fee.


4) You bought a S2 and figure it's not worth an extra $100 for years 4 to infinity.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Heinrich said:


> I'm feeling really stupid. For some reason I paid more than anyone in this forum. Perhaps in the world. I bought a Series 3 in January and I paid $199 for 1 year.


That's less than the $19.95/month someone would pay if they committed to 1 year monthly. So there are those that pay more than you.


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## robm15 (Feb 23, 2004)

When I bought my S3 and transfered my lifetime to it, I did it on February 3rd, 2007. So my 1 year promo prepaid on the old TiVo will expire February 2nd, 2008. Can I call Customer Service on February 1st or 2nd of 2008 and purchase lifetime for that box? Technically it wouldn't be under contract any more.

Thank you,
Rob


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## nyjklein (Aug 8, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> You are grandfathered at $6.95/mo MSD for that box, as long as you have a second box on your account that acts as the qualifying box.
> ...
> 
> So basically...how ever many boxes are on your account at the old MSD rate, that's how many you can have in the future at the old MSD rate. Anything beyond that would be at the new MSD rate. And if your account no longer qualifies for MSD (because you canceled it for a bit, or dropped down to a single box, etc) then your grandfathered status goes away too. So keep your account MSD-capable.
> ...


Just to make sure I understand this correctly. I have two "uplifted" Lifetime S3s and two monthly S2s at the old $6.95 MSD rate. I can replace the two existing S2 boxes with shiny new S3s or THD boxes and then get the grandfathered $6.95 monthly MSD on both of these new boxes?

Jeff


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## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

BASTARDS
My 1 Year prepay from my Liftetime Transfer expired today (11/8). So I called to switch to MSD, and I hear as of today, you have to pay 9.95 .. not 6.95... 
LOL, I guess I didn't really need that 4th box, will cancel it.
-Shaown


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

smak said:


> Oh, and Pony please figure out what the options are for us with the 12 months of free service are on last year's xfer as soon as you can.
> 
> -smak-


+ :up:


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

shaown said:


> BASTARDS
> My 1 Year prepay from my Liftetime Transfer expired today (11/8). So I called to switch to MSD, and I hear as of today, you have to pay 9.95 .. not 6.95...
> LOL, I guess I didn't really need that 4th box, will cancel it.
> -Shaown


Mine fourth one expired two days ago (11/6) and they charged me $12.95. I just called and they said that was wrong; it should be $9.95. I said no thanks and canceled as well.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

ewilts said:


> So to add a 2nd TiVo to my existing environment now costs $9.95 for TiVo service, $6.95 for Comcast's "Additional Digital Outlet", and $1.50 per month for a 2nd CableCard. So now we're up to $18.40 per month - $220.80 per year excluding taxes - and I haven't even bought a TV yet. Say I spend $500 for a TV and expect it to last for 5 years. Over that time frame, I'll have spent a total of $1604 plus taxes just to watch TV.
> 
> This really, really doesn't make any sense. TiVo and Comcast both need to drastically reduce the prices of multiple TVs in a single household.


I didn't even add in the cost of the TiVo in this calculation so make that >$2,000 just to watch TV. And no, I didn't factor in a lifetime subscription since this offer keeps coming and going and coming and going but even I did, that would only drop the price by 10%.

.../Ed


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Except that most Series 1s can record by date/time unsubbed.
> So you could use it as a backup or for occasional conflicts.


Considering we were talking about the costs of subscribing, I didn't worry about the subset of Series 1 units that might be able to work as a dumb VCR. 

So, if he's considering subscribing the Series 1 unit, he should just get a Series 2 to replace it instead.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

ewilts said:


> I didn't even add in the cost of the TiVo in this calculation so make that >$2,000 just to watch TV. And no, I didn't factor in a lifetime subscription since this offer keeps coming and going and coming and going but even I did, that would only drop the price by 10%.
> 
> .../Ed


Thats about $0.88 a day to watch TV in your example. Is that really a lot? If you drink coffee, do you make your own or buy it at ____________?


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

kmill14 said:


> Thats about $0.88 a day to watch TV in your example.


You failed math . In 5 years there are 1,826 days so that makes it about $1.10 per day.



> Is that really a lot?


Yes it is. Of course, it's a lot to me - it might not be a lot to you. I work extensively with a volunteer organization (bundlesoflove.org) where $25 will help a baby in need by providing bedding, clothing, etc. to a family that can't afford these items. $2,000 will help 80 families. Some of these families don't have a TV or even a home to put one in. I heard a story last week about one of the families we helped - they lived in their car and the mother of a newborn child hung her IV bottle from her rear-view mirror. That puts a new perspective on life.



> If you drink coffee, do you make your own or buy it at ____________?


I only drink it at work and my employers pays 

.../Ed


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

greg_burns said:


> Mine fourth one expired two days ago (11/6) and they charged me $12.95. I just called and they said that was wrong; it should be $9.95. I said no thanks and canceled as well.


They were still wrong. It should have been $6.95 without contract term.

Complain. Maintaining the the $6.95 subs is now somehow valuable.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

scoombs said:


> I read the thread and did not see a specific reference to this case, so...I currently have an S1 with no service plan. If I activate say a 1-year pre-paid, does it constitute a qualifying existing unit for lifetime eligibility if I then buy a THD? If so, I can then let service lapse again on the S1?


Wouldn't you be far better off taking advantage of the Amazon bundle that gives you a DT for $99 with a $100 Service gift certificate?

That way you get the use of a new DT for 1yr instead of the S1 and pay the same $99. Plus you still have the S1 lying around too.

http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD64908...9?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1194584234&sr=8-1


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

nocturne1 said:


> So I just bought a TivoHD 3 months ago under a 3 year commitment (MSD). And a DT just came off a 1 year pre-pay last month (and is now at $18ish/month....*grumble*).
> 
> The way I read this, the only way that I can get anything with lifetime is to buy a NEW unit? I can't transfer my commitment to my DT, and pay for lifetime on the HD?


Sure you can. Also, your DT should have been eligible for $12.95 3yr contract.

In any event, you can cancel the service on the DT (you have no commitment anymore) and sub the DT onto the TiVo HD's 3yr plan. Then buy Lifetime on the TiVo HD.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

So now, the $6.95 sub is the new hot commodity to own, like yesteryear's lifetime sub was.


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## rickho (Mar 9, 2007)

Wow. I don't know what the hell has happened at TiVo, but they've gone from my "must have" to "warn all of my friends, family and coworkers not to buy one" list.

I decided to take advantage of the offer to transfer my lifetime service to a TiVo HD. In the process of doing the transfer, they botched it. My old box shows as lifetime and the new one says 1 year service only. Strike 1.

I call to get it straightened out. They say that it's going to take a few weeks for it to reflect in the system but Trust Me, the lifetime service has been transferred. (Why do I not believe it?) Strike 2.

We were also told that we qualify for a multi-service discount on a second box, and that it would be $6.95/month if you agree to a 3 year service plan. I figure at that price, I might as well pick up a Series 3.

The Series 3 arrived Wednesday, November 7th. I set it up and go to activate it on the web site. The web site is down for maintenance. (Strike 3) Can't call the support line. It's after 8pm PST. (Strike 4)

This morning, when I try to activate, the price has gone up. Those 3 years of service will now cost an extra $108. (Holiday Pricing? Who came up with it? Scrooge?) With the change in terms, I'd return the damned thing, however it'd cost me a restocking fee, my original shipping and return shipping.. another $120-$150. (Strikes 5 and 6)

So at this point, I either throw good money after bad and activate the box at the new rate, or try to pawn it off on some poor sucker locally. I'm sure as hell not going to sign up for that new great new lifetime offer that's available. Frankly, I question the viability of the company if this is what it does to formerly loyal tivo users.

I'm not the only one who's less than impressed with the service & support. A friend of mine ran into issues transferring his lifetime to a new HD box. Tivo tried to push through a charge of $199 followed by $179 for the transfer. When the extra $179 was refused, they canceled the transfer and told him the only way for him to fix it is if they charged him another $179, "But we'll issue an immediate credit for $179 so it'll even it out." It took several calls to tivo corporate to get that mess straightened out.

Never again.


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## smgord (Aug 10, 2004)

About 40 days ago, I signed up for 3-year MSD at $6.95/month. I also have an S2 on lifetime. It's funny that this new pricing comes now, because I've been going back and forth on whether I should have committed for three years at all, given the Comcast/Tivo boxes, and the likelihood that technology will progress to the point where, crappy hardware aside, you want the Comcast box instead just because of the two-way communication. 

Doing the math, 2 years MSD at the old pricing is only about $30 or $40 less than signing up for three years and paying the termination fee after two, which is the only reason I stayed with the 3 year plan. It would take five years to make the lifetime worth it on the S3, and I just don't think I'll care, particularly if I can keep it going indefinitely at $6.95/month. I know I'm taking a risk that the $6.95 will go up, but my S2 is hooked up to a TV pretty much only so that I qualify for the MSD. I'm sure it will come in handy at some point, but it's barely being used. Three years is a long time tech-wise -- by then, I assume Comcast will have a box that can record more than 15 HD hours, and the Tivo box may look like a bad investment altogether ...

In any event, it sounds like I'd have to beg and plead to change the 3-year commitment to lifetime, and given all of the above, it doesn't seem worth it.


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## ericr74 (Apr 16, 2001)

This sucks! I have a Series2 lifetime and I was just preparing to give myself a TiVo HD as a holiday present. My plan was to get the MSD at $6.95, but now that it's $9.95, I feel that's too much. I kind of doubt I'm going to buy in now....


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

It is only $8.25 a month if you get the 1 year pre-pay.

-smak-


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## EVizzle (Feb 13, 2005)

I was so angered from the changes at first, waaaaaaaaaaay too confusing for me. Pretty annoyed that I can't add a box at 6.95 anymore, but I might have another option.

I currently have a 40hr S2 w/lifetime, a S3 with 2 year MSD @6.95. The single tuner is really just a money saver, putting 6.95 back into my pocket for a few months now. I think I will get a THD with lifetime, wait a month, sell the S2 with lifetime and use this as an opportunity to upgrade, though expensively, my S2 to a THD.

My only concern is that pesky Comcast second digital outlet, so the THD would probably be only for MRV and OTA recording, but I would be able to keep my bill the same from Tivo and have 4 HD tuners instead of 2 and one analog. Not a bad setup, but when I figure out the pricing, it will not be a bargain...


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Pony, didn't see an answer...Any reason for no multi year pre-pay play for the multi service discount?

-smak-


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

20TIL6 said:


> But for new customers, that never had a TiVo, and probably getting much simpler offers from cable and satellite.... I think it causes these customers to think too much about pricing, and less about the differentiators of TiVo vs. the generics.


This is an extremely good point. Not just the cost, but the *complexity* of the pricing. Most of us on the forum are already happy with the boxes we have and will therefore put in the effort to figure out the deal that's currently best for us in the constantly shifting pricing. But a new customer looking into things?! I'd probably be scared off.

Marketing and word of mouth may not overcome that. This may lead to more repeat business than new business. Maybe that's why MSD pricing is going up.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

smak said:


> Pony, didn't see an answer...Any reason for no multi year pre-pay play for the multi service discount?
> 
> -smak-


I guess they were willing to allow for one year prepays and just eat the difference for the balance of the term but otherwise there is the issue of handling billing properly if your qualifying unit disappears and you're no longer eligible for the MSD rate.


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## fredct (Nov 15, 2004)

rickho said:


> I decided to take advantage of the offer to transfer my lifetime service to a TiVo HD. In the process of doing the transfer, they botched it. My old box shows as lifetime and the new one says 1 year service only. Strike 1.
> 
> I call to get it straightened out. They say that it's going to take a few weeks for it to reflect in the system but Trust Me, the lifetime service has been transferred. (Why do I not believe it?) Strike 2.


I understand your annoyance at the higher MSD price, but these two are absolutely correct and are by no means 'strikes'. When you do the transfer it takes 30 to 60 days to reflect in the billing system. I guess you may not like that, but its legitimate and you're getting what you paid and asked for.

Oh, and there's no way this is two strikes anyway cause its the same situation twice.

But you can relax, its correct.

Meanwhile, if your new box ends up shorting out in just over 2 years, you'll be glad you got the $9.95 instead of the old $6.95 which came with a 3 year commitment. Not that I don't understand the dislike of this part, again.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

So it seams TiVo is back to the $12.95 plan on month to month basis (which is what it use to be before the start of the confusing plans).

But what I don't understand is people like me are already out of their contract and on a month-2-month plan and paying $16.95 have to cancel their service. Then I would have to create a new 1 year contract to get the $12.95 plan. This makes no sense to me. There should be an easier way for people on these plans so they are automatically switched to the new month by month plan.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

rickho said:


> I decided to take advantage of the offer to transfer my lifetime service to a TiVo HD. In the process of doing the transfer, they botched it. My old box shows as lifetime and the new one says 1 year service only. Strike 1.
> 
> I call to get it straightened out. They say that it's going to take a few weeks for it to reflect in the system but Trust Me, the lifetime service has been transferred. (Why do I not believe it?) Strike 2.


This is the way the transfer process has worked ("Strike 1" and "Strike 2") since they started allowing lifetime transfers with the Series 3. It is not at all unusual.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> I'll take the "complexity" and the $3/mo.
> 
> This part you are right about, but if you are sophisticated, you are not buying the $249 box to keep it short term, so the $6.95 is most relevent. The knowledgeable TiVo customer is in it for the long term.
> 
> I think TiVo has been flexible in this way in the past


Tivo has to devise a working business model.

I applaud them in their attempt to provide new customers with a reasonable rate and a low $12.95 per month rate with a one-year commitment.

IMHO, in order for Tivo to cap the maximum rate new subscribers will pay, Tivo is now going to charge more for the Multi-Service Discount.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bilbo said:


> Tivo has to devise a working business model.
> 
> I applaud them in their attempt to provide new customers with a reasonable rate and a low $12.95 per month rate with a one-year commitment.
> 
> IMHO, in order for Tivo to cap the maximum rate new subscribers will pay, Tivo is now going to charge more for the Multi-Service Discount.


agreed
it all comes back to wanting Average Revenue Per Sub of 10$. This makes it happen over time as the 6.95 subs dry up. Most likely new customers are a better thing than MSD customers so now a new customer could come in at 200$ for a year on a DT and 350$ (if they shop) for an HD. Lowering that entry into the world of TiVo is far more critical than MSD customers.

also of note the 399/48 = 8.31 which is roughly the prepay monthly amount Tivo seems OK with in their spreadsheets. Guess they saw good sucess with the transfer lifetime to the new box for 199$ programs


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

nyjklein said:


> Just to make sure I understand this correctly. I have two "uplifted" Lifetime S3s and two monthly S2s at the old $6.95 MSD rate. I can replace the two existing S2 boxes with shiny new S3s or THD boxes and then get the grandfathered $6.95 monthly MSD on both of these new boxes?
> 
> Jeff


Yes. Just change the TSN online and you can change that grandfathered price over to the new DVRs. The new prices are only for new activations or, as it seems, units coming off commitments or prepay.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Pony, I know you are being hit with a lot of clarification questions, but I had another one. If you activate a new box from this point on, would you have the ability to *upgrade* that same box to Lifetime from monthly or annual plan if you make the change request prior to the Feb. deadline? Or do you firmly have to select Lifetime at time of initial activation (or within 30 days)?

I just ordered an S2 and 2 HDs yesterday, planning to activate them later this month when I move to new TV service provider. I have a couple of lifetime units already on my account, so all the new boxes would be eligible for the new MSD pricing and Lifetime. After shelling out the cash for the boxes themselves just prior to the holidays, I wouldn't have the funds to roll into Lifetime at the moment. I most likely would have the funds prior to the Feb. cut off date, however.

So I'm faced with a choice of frankly not activating three new units until February (and using FiOS boxes instead) in order to gain LifeTime. One would think TiVo would rather have that monthly revenue instead.


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## kmdmb (Sep 18, 2007)

So it's 9.95 instead of 6.95. $36 a year. In my opinion if the people whining about this can get that uptight about $36 a year, they probably can't afford a Tivo in the first place. Or cable for that matter. I know it's somewhat the principle of the thing, but life goes on. You guys have to learn to relax. I bought my first tivo 6 weeks ago. An HD with 3 year service. Was planning on adding another soon at 6.95. That's not going to happen. Is $36 a year going to change my plan? No way. If it's a problem I could eat at home one more night this year, or not go to the bar one night this year, or use 10 gallons less gas this year by not driving somewhere I don't really need to. All easy trade offs for having a year of Tivo. I'm just in a scrappy mood this morning. Flame away.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

I wonder how much per month it costs Tivo for each unit that connects to their servers and downloads data? I'm not talking about the cost of developing future upgrades, etc., but solely for bandwidth to provide the guide data. Then I'm wondering if Tivo could save money in (networked) multi-Tivo households by having one Tivo interface with their servers and the other Tivos getting their data from it.

Of course, that assumes there's really some significant costs associated with the bandwidth, which admittedly I'm questioning.

Anyway, just throwing an idea against the wall to see if it sticks.

As for the new pricing structure, I sure hope they can find one that works well and is understandable. I haven't been happy with any since the $12.95/mo with no commitment and the $6.95/mo MSD with no commitment!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ericr74 said:


> This sucks! I have a Series2 lifetime and I was just preparing to give myself a TiVo HD as a holiday present. My plan was to get the MSD at $6.95, but now that it's $9.95, I feel that's too much. I kind of doubt I'm going to buy in now....


$36/year is a dealbreaker?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bmgoodman said:


> I wonder how much per month it costs Tivo for each unit that connects to their servers and downloads data? I'm not talking about the cost of developing future upgrades, etc., but solely for bandwidth to provide the guide data. Then I'm wondering if Tivo could save money in (networked) multi-Tivo households by having one Tivo interface with their servers and the other Tivos getting their data from it.
> 
> Of course, that assumes there's really some significant costs associated with the bandwidth, which admittedly I'm questioning.
> 
> ...


HDTiVo did some math on the earnings reports and (I think) came out with 2.50 a month. Somewhere in that range anyhiw. And yes most of the cost is guide data and that is per TiVo, not per Household. Since the guide data takes up little bandwidth than I doubt it is a cost savings to try and reduce that. In fact it would most likely cost more to code and maintain that functionality then they would save in overhead


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> HDTiVo did some math on the earnings reports and (I think) came out with 2.50 a month. Somewhere in that range anyhiw. And yes most of the cost is guide data and that is per TiVo, not per Household. Since the guide data takes up little bandwidth than I doubt it is a cost savings to try and reduce that. In fact it would most likely cost more to code and maintain that functionality then they would save in overhead


As a reference point, ReplayTV charges $19.99 for a year for guide date for their PC product. That's $1.66 / month. They don't need to maintain the phone banks that TiVo does so TiVo has a higher cost basis. So overall I think something in the range of $2 - $2.50 marginal cost is probably about right for Tivo Boxes.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bilbo said:


> _Tivo has to devise a working business model_.





bmgoodman said:


> As for the new pricing structure, I sure hope they can find one that works well and is understandable. I haven't been happy with any since the $12.95/mo with no commitment and the $6.95/mo MSD with no commitment!


Well, we just found out they are at least three months away from coming up with something.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> HDTiVo did some math on the earnings reports and (I think) came out with 2.50 a month. Somewhere in that range anyhiw. And yes most of the cost is guide data and that is per TiVo, not per Household. Since the guide data takes up little bandwidth than I doubt it is a cost savings to try and reduce that. In fact it would most likely cost more to code and maintain that functionality then they would save in overhead


Its more like $2.25 and it includes alot of things. I think he specifically wants to know about saving money by reducing bandwidth and server investment. I guess that the guide data is around $1/mo and probably lower for additional units on the account than the first one.

I don't know anything more precise than that.


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## fredct (Nov 15, 2004)

bilbo said:


> Tivo has to devise a working business model.
> 
> I applaud them in their attempt to provide new customers with a reasonable rate and a low $12.95 per month rate with a one-year commitment.
> 
> IMHO, in order for Tivo to cap the maximum rate new subscribers will pay, Tivo is now going to charge more for the Multi-Service Discount.


And to be fair, it makes a lot of sense. While MSD is nice, the costs for TiVo on your first TiVo isn't really much less than the first one.

Their biggest cost (selling the hardware for a loss) is the same whether its your first, second, or fifth box. Same thing with the bandwidth for TiVoCasts, call ins, other free little apps like weather and traffic. The cost of any warranty repairs. All are the same no matter how many TiVos you have.

Now, you could argue that some costs are less - and I wouldn't dispute that - tech support might be less because you already know TiVos. But then again, now you've opened up MRV which is probably a feature that generates more calls than average.

But the biggest cost - making up the hardware subsidy - does not change. While I'm not a big fan of the change either, I always had felt that the MSD discount was maybe a little too good to really make sense.


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## ericr74 (Apr 16, 2001)

MickeS said:


> $36/year is a dealbreaker?


I'm not certain if it's a dealbreaker; I could afford an extra $36/year. But the value of buying a new TiVo is definitely diminished for existing customers. The ongoing cost just increased by 43%. I'll also have to upgrade my cable service and pay for cable cards (total of about $17/month), and when I add up the cable costs plus the TiVo sub cost it just isn't as attractive as it was a week ago. Really what I'm looking at is upgrading so that I have HD. How much is a better picture worth? To me it's hard to justify spending a lot of money.

I really like lifetime to eliminate ongoing costs, but $400 + $250 box cost in my opinion is too much to be spending on TV in addition to what I'm already spending (it's not that I'm not able, it's that I don't think it's a good value). I'm willing to do a pay as you go plan, but with higher prices and commitment (especially when I'm already heavily committed) the value decreases.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

fredct said:


> Their biggest cost (selling the hardware for a loss)


Your information is out of date. When you see a $100 rebate or the price much lower on the THD, you'll be back in business with your view.

However, TiVo had for years sold boxes with large hardware subsidies at $6.95. Were they stupid then, or are they stupid now?

Trick question.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

kmdmb said:


> So it's 9.95 instead of 6.95. $36 a year. In my opinion if the people whining about this can get that uptight about $36 a year, they probably can't afford a Tivo in the first place. Or cable for that matter. I know it's somewhat the principle of the thing, but life goes on. You guys have to learn to relax. I bought my first tivo 6 weeks ago. An HD with 3 year service. Was planning on adding another soon at 6.95. That's not going to happen. Is $36 a year going to change my plan? No way. If it's a problem I could eat at home one more night this year, or not go to the bar one night this year, or use 10 gallons less gas this year by not driving somewhere I don't really need to. All easy trade offs for having a year of Tivo. I'm just in a scrappy mood this morning. Flame away.


 :up: I'm pretty much with you on this. I've read all of the posts and I know it's the principle of the matter and all...plus TiVo has brought all of this angst on themselves by messing around with payment plans year after year after year.

But when it comes down to the bottom line, starving children aside, the dollar differences are chump change in the grand scheme of things...IMHO of course. 

What I'd really like to see TiVo do is settle on a flat rate...whatever their goal is and sit tight for a while. If the bottom line is $10/per box, so be it. If it's $15, okay. Honestly I really don't want to pay anything but nothing is free in this world. I'd even happily settle for a lifetime of (insert number here) on every box I own. Have a promo now and then, fine, always makes sense. When costs and services rendered go up, the price will too and thats okay. If it reaches a tipping point where its no longer worth it to me, thats fine as well. But figure it out and give me one, single number. Done. The business models for a flat plan exist already; its nothing new.

I was trying to explain the options to a friend that likes our TiVo the other day. He was thinking strongly about getting one. I could describe the plusses and minuses about a Series 2 Vs THD, S3, etc. But when it came to telling him how much he'd have to pay per month his eyes glazed over...and so did mine. Hes not getting onelost revenue.

I've been recommending TiVo ever since we got our first S1 over seven years ago. But until I can easily tell someone (like in the old days) Itll cost you 10 bucks a month (or $12/whatever) or if you want a lifetime subscription its $300 I cant really recommend TiVo anymore...and I really hate that because I really love TiVo. 

*Pahleeze TiVo...KISS!*


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

richsadams said:


> I've been recommending TiVo ever since we got our first S1 over seven years ago. But until I can easily tell someone (like in the old days) Itll cost you 10 bucks a month (or $12/whatever) or if you want a lifetime subscription its $300 I cant really recommend TiVo anymore...and I really hate that because I really love TiVo.


Same here. But at least right now, we can say something close to that.  "It's $12.95/month if you pay monthly, less if you choose some of the prepay options."


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## fredct (Nov 15, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Your information is out of date. When you see a $100 rebate or the price much lower on the THD, you'll be back in business with your view.
> 
> However, TiVo had for years sold boxes with large hardware subsidies at $6.95. Were they stupid then, or are they stupid now?
> 
> Trick question.


On their latest 10-Q financial report, hardware revenues was $6.2 million, while 'cost of hardware revenue' was $28.3 million.. That's $22.1 million lost on hardware sales. That means, on average, they sold each box for less than a quarter of what it cost them to make it (after rebate, etc).

Okay, the fine print says they impaired about $12 million of charges for unsold inventory (both finished products and raw goods) this quarter. But even taking that out, that's still $6.2 million on revenue of $16 million of cost. Which means they sell each box for ~40% of what it costs them.

While I'd be interested to know there's some other factor in the accounting that doesn't make it as it first appears, the hardware loss still does look like a real and substantial issue.


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## fredct (Nov 15, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> However, TiVo had for years sold boxes with large hardware subsidies at $6.95. Were they stupid then, or are they stupid now?


Considering they've hardly ever turned a profit... well, 'stupid' is of course unfair, but I'm not giving too too much weight to 'then'. As for now, that's yet to be determined.

Of course I realize that their financial history of not turning a profit is not, by any means, mostly due to the MSD. But nor do I think its unreasonable that the MSD deal may have been a bit better offer than was fully wise.


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## desiboy (Oct 3, 2007)

While looking at the pricing griping let us not forget the most innate premise of a business... a need have funds to invest in the future and survive... The S1's fueled S2, the S2 fueled (incrementally!) S2DT, then S3, THD and so on...

If it were not for cable companies, TiVo may not have innovated as fast, or would have charged a lot more. Checks and balances are good.

Having said that, my hands are tied when I recommend TiVo to others. The $300 up front + monthlies + aggravation of cable cards (and SDV's) keep it out of non-savvy masses who are content with basic DVR functionality.



fredct said:


> ...
> Their biggest cost (selling the hardware for a loss) is the same whether its your first, second, or fifth box. Same thing with the bandwidth for TiVoCasts, call ins, other free little apps like weather and traffic. The cost of any warranty repairs. All are the same no matter how many TiVos you have.
> ...


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## Deanq4 (Sep 30, 2005)

OK, I get that this is all for a second (or more) TiVo, but what if after I get the lifetime for say.... a TiVoHD I cancel the other one? I really only have one TV in the house and see no reason to keep it longer than I have to. Is that a deal breaker? I would likely get a TiVoHD after x-mas if that is the case.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

dslunceford said:


> Pony, I know you are being hit with a lot of clarification questions, but I had another one. If you activate a new box from this point on, would you have the ability to *upgrade* that same box to Lifetime from monthly or annual plan if you make the change request prior to the Feb. deadline? Or do you firmly have to select Lifetime at time of initial activation (or within 30 days)?
> 
> I just ordered an S2 and 2 HDs yesterday, planning to activate them later this month when I move to new TV service provider. I have a couple of lifetime units already on my account, so all the new boxes would be eligible for the new MSD pricing and Lifetime. After shelling out the cash for the boxes themselves just prior to the holidays, I wouldn't have the funds to roll into Lifetime at the moment. I most likely would have the funds prior to the Feb. cut off date, however.
> 
> So I'm faced with a choice of frankly not activating three new units until February (and using FiOS boxes instead) in order to gain LifeTime. One would think TiVo would rather have that monthly revenue instead.


Checking on this, not sure what would be possible. I'll let you know what I hear.

Pony


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

I think one thing to consider is that MSD is no longer a huge factor for a majority to Tivo users. Back in the days of Single Tivos, it was probably more common to buy more than one Tivo to handle schedule conflicts and show overlap (how many people complained about the CSI/ER one minute overlap.) 

Now Tivo only sells Dual Tuner Tivos. I would suspect that MOST regular Tivo users are quite happy with two tuners. This fills their needs to the point that the additional cost (initial and month) of additional Tivo (and two more tuners) is not worth the value.

I suspect Tivo is seeing their number of multiple Tivo households diminishing and it looking to better cover the costs.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

kmdmb said:


> So it's 9.95 instead of 6.95. $36 a year.


kmdmb--you're right. Not a biggie.

Or buy the 3 yr @ $299. The $6.95 for 36 months would have been $250. Fifty bucks over three years, or $16 a year difference.

I know change is discomforting, but come on. . . this will cost us $16/yr, and we're griping? 

And don't throw in the time value of money argument. The interest on that $300 buys 1/4 cup of joe a month


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> Checking on this, not sure what would be possible. I'll let you know what I hear.
> 
> Pony


Thanks Bob. I've been on DTiVos for many years now and haven't wandered over to the Coffee House or other SA forums in quite a while. Was glad to see you/TiVo still active over here with the community -- people will always grouse about changes like these, but I believe that TiVo still listens to its loyal customers more than 95+% of consumer companies out there, and your participation (and Stephen's, Jerry's, et al) at the forum is a big part of that.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

RBlount said:


> I think one thing to consider is that MSD is no longer a huge factor for a majority to Tivo users. Back in the days of Single Tivos, it was probably more common to buy more than one Tivo to handle schedule conflicts and show overlap (how many people complained about the CSI/ER one minute overlap.)
> 
> Now Tivo only sells Dual Tuner Tivos. I would suspect that MOST regular Tivo users are quite happy with two tuners. This fills their needs to the point that the additional cost (initial and month) of additional Tivo (and two more tuners) is not worth the value.
> 
> I suspect Tivo is seeing their number of multiple Tivo households diminishing and it looking to better cover the costs.


There still is a value to two TiVos though: A his and hers. By putting them in different rooms, connected to different TVs, husband and wife and each be simultaneously be using their own TiVos.

Also, by having separate machines, we can customize our thumbs settings to fit ourselves.

Also, the NP doesn't get so cluttered up with a bunch of shows we're not interested in (i.e. no need to weed through wife's shows to find our own.)

Also, the SP manager doesn't get so huge. I think huge SP lists can significantly slow down performance.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> Checking on this, not sure what would be possible. I'll let you know what I hear.
> 
> Pony


come on pony. you're going to turn down $10 per month on three high-definition tivo for about 3 months (about $90 total) and then the poster will fork over an additional $400 per tivo ($1,200 total). all in all it is almost $1,300, and tivo can't make a 7.5% return on that money in 3 months.

to the original poster, if you don't already have a tivo platinum mastercard it has a 0% intro apr for 6 months. that would get you into march with no problem.

https://www.tivo.com/mytivo/rewards/tivoplatinummastercard/index.html


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## desiboy (Oct 3, 2007)

I'm not TiVoPony, but in life or in business, there is value in _not _chasing a dollar here or there in lieu of consistency.

That said, I'd say TiVo stands to gain in major, major way, if it allows a 3 mo monthly window to convert to Lifetime (or multi year prepay). Standard one month is too short for addiction to kick in, you almost start to worry 2 weeks into purchase and act by 3rd to roll back.

TiVoPony: This is called VOC.



bilbo said:


> come on pony. you're going to turn down $10 per month on three high-definition tivo for about 3 months (about $90 total) and then the poster will fork over an additional $400 per tivo ($1,200 total). all in all it is almost $1,300, and tivo can't make a 7.5% return on that money in 3 months.
> 
> ...


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

One thing to remember. They aren't raising the rates for anybody that currently has MSD. They are only raising the rates for any future boxes you put on MSD.

So yah, if you were about to buy a new box and put it on MSD (like I am), then the price is more.

But for those thousands of people with a 2nd box at $6.95, there is no change.

-smak-


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

smak said:


> One thing to remember. They aren't raising the rates for anybody that currently has MSD. They are only raising the rates for any future boxes you put on MSD.


But they are lowering the month by month rate, so current month by month users are being charged more than new users.


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## jon96cobra (May 24, 2006)

I'm trying to decide if I should do it. I have 3 tivos non of them are on lifetime. I'm paying 26.85 a month for 2x S2 and 1x S3.

Do I have to get lifetime on each one of them since its per box and not the account holder?


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## gilbreen (Sep 5, 2007)

Any updates on how Tivo is addressing Tivos that were recently purchased but had not been activated? I have one enroute to me but now see the change to the MSD pricing.

I just activated 3 Tivo HDs in the last two weeks so still weighing my options about getting lifetime on one or some of them since I am within the first 30-day window.

I have a Series 1 with Lifetime so am paying the $6.95 on each of the Tivo HDs. Since TivoPony stated that you can maintain the same number of 'old' MSDs and swap out Tivos as appropriate, one thought is to cancel one of the TivoHDs, purchase Lifetime on it, swap in the new Tivo coming (it is an S2 DT for one one non-HDTV) and then eventually sell the Series 1 with Lifetime.

The question is whether or not the TivoHD with Lifetime would be a qualifying subscription to keep the others at the $6.95 MSD since it wasn't the original subscription at the time I signed up the other MSD boxes.

Any recommendations or other things to consider?


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## scoombs (Jun 23, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Wouldn't you be far better off taking advantage of the Amazon bundle that gives you a DT for $99 with a $100 Service gift certificate?
> 
> That way you get the use of a new DT for 1yr instead of the S1 and pay the same $99. Plus you still have the S1 lying around too.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD64908...9?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1194584234&sr=8-1


That surely merits some consideration, thank you. I have not had service on my S1 for years and so am not that up on the service pricing, but in reviewing the Tivo site it seems a year of pre-paid is $129. Would I not be better getting the $150 Fall rebate special instead of the $100 Service Gift Card with the purchase of the S2-DT unit? The former would seem to net me $21 while the latter would cost me ($29), all in the interest of getting a qualifying unit for the intended THD Lifetime eligibility.

Also to clarify from Pony's earlier reply about potential early termination feesMy original post talked about letting the renewed service on my S1 "lapse" (or the DT unit if I go that route), not to terminate it early. The idea being to convert the current S1 which I use for time/channel recording and manual season passes, getting the "benefit" of guide data for a year, and then back to time/channel recording after the pre-paid year lapses all while having HD capability and lifetime service on the new unit.


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## paladin732 (Nov 4, 2002)

I have a question about the new lifetime also:

The lifetime requires MSD to activate essentially, right? You can not activate it without another box. However, once it is on the box it is the same as any other lifetime, I.E. it becomes qualifying to give other boxes MSD if moved to another account after getting lifetimed.

So, would I be able to activate lifetime on a box for $399. Cancel my other two boxes, then reactivate them for $99/pre-pay year?

I do not see why this would not be possible. 


btw, is there any way to add valid warranty to a box already purchased, just in case it does go? (Although, isnt the only thing that really fails on these the HDD, which is easily replaced?, also... did they ever enable M-Cards on the original S3 boxes?)


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## mpd (Jul 16, 2005)

So I've got to be honest here, I'm feeling a little screwed. I just bought a TiVo HD in august with 3 year prepay, and now I can't upgrade to lifetime service? I bought it under the impression that lifetime services were a thing of the past. Now I have to wait three years just to pay $9.95/month even with MSD?

Even if I can hold on to the $6.95, I think I'm done with tivo once this contract is up...


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

mpd said:


> So I've got to be honest here, I'm feeling a little screwed. I just bought a TiVo HD in august with 3 year prepay, and now I can't upgrade to lifetime service? I bought it under the impression that lifetime services were a thing of the past. Now I have to wait three years just to pay $9.95/month even with MSD?
> 
> Even if I can hold on to the $6.95, I think I'm done with tivo once this contract is up...


For some situations, calling customer support may help. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, they're aware that there are some customers who are in particularly unique situations.

Pony


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

mpd said:


> So I've got to be honest here, I'm feeling a little screwed. I just bought a TiVo HD in august with 3 year prepay, and now I can't upgrade to lifetime service? I bought it under the impression that lifetime services were a thing of the past. Now I have to wait three years just to pay $9.95/month even with MSD?
> 
> Even if I can hold on to the $6.95, I think I'm done with tivo once this contract is up...


I can guarantee you that the MSD rate won't be $9.95/month in August 2010.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

scoombs said:


> That surely merits some consideration, thank you. I have not had service on my S1 for years and so am not that up on the service pricing, but in reviewing the Tivo site it seems a year of pre-paid is $129. Would I not be better getting the $150 Fall rebate special instead of the $100 Service Gift Card with the purchase of the S2-DT unit? The former would seem to net me $21 while the latter would cost me ($29), all in the interest of getting a qualifying unit for the intended THD Lifetime eligibility.
> 
> Also to clarify from Pony's earlier reply about potential early termination feesMy original post talked about letting the renewed service on my S1 "lapse" (or the DT unit if I go that route), not to terminate it early. The idea being to convert the current S1 which I use for time/channel recording and manual season passes, getting the "benefit" of guide data for a year, and then back to time/channel recording after the pre-paid year lapses all while having HD capability and lifetime service on the new unit.


Your earlier description of your account was that you had another TiVo active, no? So you get the DT, $100 Service Cert. and $99 one year MSD pre-pay all for a total of $99. I think you "waste" $1 on the certificate unless you keep the DT running after 1yr.

I don't know if you can get a rebate that nets you $21. Aren't those boxes not elligible for rebate?

Pony was wrong about the termination fee because you obviously are not cancelling early.


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## scoombs (Jun 23, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Your earlier description of your account was that you had another TiVo active, no? So you get the DT, $100 Service Cert. and $99 one year MSD pre-pay all for a total of $99. I think you "waste" $1 on the certificate unless you keep the DT running after 1yr.
> 
> I don't know if you can get a rebate that nets you $21. Aren't those boxes not elligible for rebate?
> 
> Pony was wrong about the termination fee because you obviously are not cancelling early.


I have no current subscribed Tivo units, just the S1 with no service, so I am not eligible for MSD I think. The rebate form on Amazon says it cannot be combined with any package deals, but I think is otherwise available if I do not do the service special.

"TiVo 2007 Fall Rebate"
"$150 TiVo® Series2 Dual Tuner DVR Rebate [valid only on TiVo Service Numbers (TSN) starting with 264, 275, 565, 590, 595, 649]"
"..not valid for bundled hardware and service offers"

Now once I buy the THD I would have two units with service, but I think that is a chicken/egg scenario since I need to have a subscribed unit to get the THD Lifetime offer to begin with.


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## mpd (Jul 16, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> For some situations, calling customer support may help. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, they're aware that there are some customers who are in particularly unique situations.
> 
> Pony


Thanks Pony, but I did call and they were unable/willing to do anything for me. I guess there's always the "keep calling until I get an answer I like" approach...


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## mpd (Jul 16, 2005)

dswallow said:


> I can guarantee you that the MSD rate won't be $9.95/month in August 2010.


touche, sir, touche...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

fredct said:


> On their latest 10-Q financial report,


Which is out of date. Applying it to the current situation is totally wrong. TiVo has a new product they are making now with different economics. S2s are in the warehouse, money paid. Whatever they cost to make is now irrelevant. Also, alot of the hardware loss had been an outgrowth of the terrible marketing plan they'd been using for a year and a half.

$6.95 MSD was a really good and reasonable price for TiVo and the customer in the past, and on the TiVo HD sales it had the chance to drive enough volume very well. Remember, unlike what you said, not all sales are the same or incur the same costs. Marginal sales are extremely important because they are easier, less costly and drive average costs down. That's what MSD @ $6.95 could do; that is also what Lifetime did; which is part of why things fell apart after March '06

Reducing the first box to $12.95/1yr is a big improvement. There they'll do better with first time sales. But those are the hard and costly sales - the ones that require the bulk of the costs. On balance, if volume goes up or down, I'm not sure, but it won't be big either way. Certainly TiVo will not be able to say their average new sub is at $13 anymore, and that is a good thing.

The error in people's thinking is that raising price somehow brings in more profit for TiVo. It does not. It lowers volume, revenue, and leaves fixed costs spread over fewer units. And believe me, those "fixed" costs are big with their crazy strategy of additional spending on marketing without focusing on volume. You point out the writedown  - that write down is an outgrowth of higher prices. Higher prices have led to massive losses at TiVo.

No, the only plan that makes sense is to _drive volume_ by pushing down the pricing curve, eliminating impediments like contracts, saving money on marketing relative to today's plan, all resulting in a _large user base_ that pays for the whole company despite lower service fees per unit.

Based on all that has happened to TiVo over the years, with their various attempts, the evidence is clear that is the right strategy. Instead, as always, TiVo killed something they could have had right before it could show itself.


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> For some situations, calling customer support may help. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, they're aware that there are some customers who are in particularly unique situations.
> 
> Pony


I ordered my unit from Amazon 11/01 and received it on 11/6. It was acting a little flakey so I wanted to sure it was stable and didn't try to activate until the 8th.

I kindly explained to the rep that I was expecting the msd rate, $6.95, as of the order date. After placing me on hold to check, she came back and said there was nothing she could do. The present rates are in the system and *can not be changed.*

I kindly asked to speak to a supervisor. I then was transferred to supervisor Chris and although apologetic, he told me the same as the rep and there was nothing that could be done.

I told him I had been in online contact with the marketing rep and told him I was doing as advised by the rep(TivoPony).

I told him I would hold off on the activation and wait for later info.

He did give me a Case#.

No offense, but I think a more effective "heads up" would have been an *advanced notice.*

This might be the first case I have heard of a rate change without advanced notice and does not seem fair or even reasonable, considering the circumstances.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

dwit said:


> No offense, but I think a more effective "heads up" would have been an *advanced notice.*
> 
> This might be the first case I have heard of a rate change without advanced notice and does not seem fair or even reasonable, considering the circumstances.


Something like this should NOT be given advanced notice.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

dwit said:


> I told him I had been in online contact with the marketing rep and told him I was doing as advised by the rep(TivoPony).


Dwit, I'm sorry that you're not finding satisfaction in the call.

I do have to ask you, and others, not to tell the reps (if you call) that 'TiVoPony said you'd fix this'. I haven't. I simply responded to mpd that there may be some cases where something can be done by the call center. The inverse is also true.

In this case, I know that both the call rep and the supervisor were giving you the correct information based on our current policies and the system tools they have available.

Pony


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## hurl03 (Nov 1, 2007)

So i am back to TiVo after suffering with the SA8300HD. I purchased a S3 on 10/26 from Circuit City - got it and activated with 3yr pre-pay service. Was disappointed when the lifetime service plans were announced. But then I activated my old S2 that was in the basement on the $12.95 monthly plan. Called to cancel the 3yr pre-pay on the S3 - for full refund because it was within 30 days. The reactivated the S3 with lifetime, the S2 now being the qualifying account. I also just activated a second S3 today with lifetime and then called to cancel the S2 monthly plan, again being within the 30 day period. A bit of a hassle, but in the end I now have two S3's with lifetime and will likely add a third before the promotion is over...


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

dswallow said:


> I can guarantee you that the MSD rate won't be $9.95/month in August 2010.


An even safer bet is that the MSD price will change between now and 8/10. Wouldn't surprise me that after three changes it's right back there.


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> Dwit, I'm sorry that you're not finding satisfaction in the call.
> 
> I do have to ask you, and others, not to tell the reps (if you call) that 'TiVoPony said you'd fix this'. I haven't. I simply responded to mpd that there may be some cases where something can be done by the call center. The inverse is also true.
> 
> ...


Just to let you know, I did not mention your name or this forum.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

dwit said:


> Just to let you know, I did not mention your name or this forum.


Yeah but it is not hard to figure out which forum and which marketing guy. 

I am surprised that TiVo is not being flexible. The way I remember it in the past TiVo has been so, particularly with regard to order date. You should pursue it and they may relent. You are not asking for something at all unreasonable.


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## nocturne1 (Aug 17, 2004)

It is so stupid with how there's all these different permutations that are required to get lifetime. Either sell it, or don't. Stop creating this environment where people either feel lucky or screwed.

In addition to alienating those who WANT to give MORE MONEY to TiVo but can't, you're also loading down the call center with these case-by-case negotiations. It's absurd.

TiVo has generally had probably the second most loyal user base out there (second to Apple), yet decides to make polarizing decisions like this. Where people who want to be lifetime customers, are told no, and then wonder if they even want to support the company. Oh, and generally raise monthly rates at that.

I still need to see if there's anything that can be done with my specific case. But the thing is, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops to give you guys more money....


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

mpd said:


> So I've got to be honest here, I'm feeling a little screwed. I just bought a TiVo HD in august with 3 year prepay, and now I can't upgrade to lifetime service? I bought it under the impression that lifetime services were a thing of the past. Now I have to wait three years just to pay $9.95/month even with MSD?
> 
> Even if I can hold on to the $6.95, I think I'm done with tivo once this contract is up...





TiVoPony said:


> For some situations, calling customer support may help. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, they're aware that there are some customers who are in particularly unique situations.
> 
> Pony


I tried with no luck on a TiVo I just did a 3yr plan on sept 14, I'll have to try again sometime.


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## fredct (Nov 15, 2004)

mpd said:


> So I've got to be honest here, I'm feeling a little screwed. I just bought a TiVo HD in august with 3 year prepay, and now I can't upgrade to lifetime service? I bought it under the impression that lifetime services were a thing of the past. Now I have to wait three years just to pay $9.95/month even with MSD?
> 
> Even if I can hold on to the $6.95, I think I'm done with tivo once this contract is up...


Maybe you can sue and get $100 credit at the Apple store. 

Seriously, prices change. I can understand people who have them enroute and were expecting $6.95, but, you bought the thing 3 months ago. You aren't getting anything more or less than you were expecting. You're getting exactly what you bought. Prices change, things come and go, hardware gets upgraded. Doesn't seem like any major injustice to me.


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## fredct (Nov 15, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Which is out of date. Applying it to the current situation is totally wrong. TiVo has a new product they are making now with different economics. S2s are in the warehouse, money paid. Whatever they cost to make is now irrelevant. Also, alot of the hardware loss had been an outgrowth of the terrible marketing plan they'd been using for a year and a half.


Why is the last 10-Q (from July) so 'out of date' that its 'irrelevant'? They had been selling S3s and TiVoHD already then. Now if you say that sales of that newer hardware doesn't have as much or any loss, that'd be interesting to know, but could you provide a source or reference on that? Because TiVo doesn't seem to have changed its tune - their last 10-Q, again, from July, says "We sell this hardware as a means to grow our service revenues and, as a result, do not intend to generate positive gross margins from these hardware sales."

Btw, the costs of a marketing plan would not be reflected under "cost of hardware revenues", so I don't see how that's relevant.

Again, if this is less or untrue on the newer hardware, I'd be interested to see a source on that.



> The error in people's thinking is that raising price somehow brings in more profit for TiVo. It does not. It lowers volume, revenue, and leaves fixed costs spread over fewer units. And believe me, those "fixed" costs are big with their crazy strategy of additional spending on marketing without focusing on volume. You point out the writedown  - that write down is an outgrowth of higher prices. Higher prices have led to massive losses at TiVo.


It is absolutely true that higher prices do not necessarily mean more profit or even more revenue. But neither do lower prices necessarily mean more profit or revenue. This is entirely dependent on the economics of the specific business and the shape and elasticity of the particular demand curve in question.

Neither you nor I, nor even the people at TiVo, have an exact idea what the specific demand curves look like. But they sure as heck have a lot more information than you and I on the subject.

Now they could certainly be wrong too, but it seems silly to me to just assume that lower prices would mean more profits. That's a huge leap.

There are also a ton of things going on with TiVo right now that could have influence on the profits more so than the immediate profit plans. There's new hardware (which *may* just be produced at a greater loss?), all the costs associated with the EchoStar lawsuit, amounts spent on advertising, etc. Do you have some greater analysis that shows a more distinct connection. If not, there are numerous other factors at play here.


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## scoombs (Jun 23, 2002)

scoombs said:


> "TiVo 2007 Fall Rebate"
> "$150 TiVo® Series2 Dual Tuner DVR Rebate [valid only on TiVo Service Numbers (TSN) starting with 264, 275, 565, 590, 595, 649]"
> "..not valid for bundled hardware and service offers"


Ah, what I failed to notice was the rebate was good for purchases through 10/14/07, so it would indeed seem that the S2-DT with $100 service credit would be the best way to go. $99 for the Tivo, plus $29 for the balance of the 1-year service after the included $100 gift card equals $128 total. I save a whole dollar over buying a 1-year plan for my S1, and end up with the S2-DT when the service lapses, as HDTiVo suggested.

So I think I get a new S2-DT, and a new THD with lifetime, all for aprox the cost of the original S3 and keep my trusty un-subbed S1 as a bonus. Come on SDV dongle...Come on SDV dongle...Come on SDV dongle...


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## kettledrum (Nov 17, 2003)

Okay I read through the entire thread and I almost forgot what my question was!

I have a lifetimed S2. If I buy another retail S2 unit and get the MSD prepaid for $99 does that in any way invalidate the hardware rebate?

This is the part of the T & C I'm not sure about.

(2) Rebate not valid for bundled hardware and service offers, including TiVo Packages sold at www.tivo.com. Rebate may not be combined with any other TiVo offer, including, but not limited to, TiVo units received through the TiVo Rewards program.

What is a "package plan"?

I see here it talks about "TiVo Package Payment Plans" and ""TiVo Service Only" Payment Plans" It does say that the package plan "(Includes TiVo DVR and Service)". I'm guessing that's where you bought the hardware and a service plan together, so in this case I would be getting a service only plan?

However, I guess I'm back to my original question of is the $99 prepaid plan another "TiVo Offer" that would invalidate the rebate?


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

kettledrum said:


> Okay I read through the entire thread and I almost forgot what my question was!
> 
> I have a lifetimed S2. If I buy another retail S2 unit and get the MSD prepaid for $99 does that in any way invalidate the hardware rebate?
> 
> ...


It would be fofilling your rebate obligation of having service on the hardware.

Packages is where the service is billed togather.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

TiVo is confusing enough to people. Your only going to confuse people even more with this convoluted pricing scheme.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> TiVo is confusing enough to people. Your only going to confuse people even more with this convoluted pricing scheme.


This new scheme is less complicated than before. Now you can go month-by-month with a single price or prepay for 1, 2, or 3 years. This is how they should of done it to begin with instead of the previous confusing plans.


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## pheezie (Nov 8, 2007)

I just bought the series 2 single tuner and a dual tuner what is the best way to get both rebates and activate both boxes? 
I want the 1 year prepaid so is that $129 + $99 or is it $99 + $99 but from what I have read I might have to pay the $12.95 for the first box then I'll get either $9.95 per month or $99 a yr on the second. 
The more I'm reading the more confused I'm starting to get please tell me the best way to set these 2 DVR's up at the best price and still qualify for the rebate.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

mpd said:


> So I've got to be honest here, I'm feeling a little screwed. I just bought a TiVo HD in august with 3 year prepay, and now I can't upgrade to lifetime service? I bought it under the impression that lifetime services were a thing of the past. Now I have to wait three years just to pay $9.95/month even with MSD?
> 
> Even if I can hold on to the $6.95, I think I'm done with tivo once this contract is up...


That's your choice, but it seems like in your anger at lifetime being introduced, you are not really examining your position.

You are paying $6.95 for three years. That's $250. Lifetime is $399. Difference of $149. Divide that by the 6.95, and it's another 21+ months.

So you would have to have your TiVo for almost *five* years before Lifetime washes to what you are paying. Can a TiVo make it five years? Easy. But it's not like they are scr*wing you every which way on this deal. What are the odds in five years there will be a new technology driving you to the S4 TiVo?  And you'll be glad you don't have that lifetime anchoring you to some old technology.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

astrohip said:


> So you would have to have your TiVo for almost *five* years before Lifetime washes to what you are paying. Can a TiVo make it five years? Easy. But it's not like they are scr*wing you every which way on this deal. What are the odds in five years there will be a new technology driving you to the S4 TiVo?  And you'll be glad you don't have that lifetime anchoring you to some old technology.


There's also the effect on resale value that lifetime usually has that should be considered... it's sometimes hard to quantify, I suppose, since if you have only one lifetime unit, it might not be something you'd really want to sell... but in those situations I'd think the 5-year payoff would be approaching or long past, too.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

fredct said:


> Why is the last 10-Q (from July) so 'out of date' that its 'irrelevant'? They had been selling S3s and TiVoHD already then. Now if you say that sales of that newer hardware doesn't have as much or any loss, that'd be interesting to know, but could you provide a source or reference on that? Because TiVo doesn't seem to have changed its tune - their last 10-Q, again, from July, says "We sell this hardware as a means to grow our service revenues and, as a result, do not intend to generate positive gross margins from these hardware sales."
> 
> Btw, the costs of a marketing plan would not be reflected under "cost of hardware revenues", so I don't see how that's relevant.
> 
> ...


Some of this I addressed in the prior post. I've written alot about this on my blog, including analysis of conference calls and investor presentations. There are links there to audio replays so you can get original source material. Scroll through the last few months.

But the bottom line to all the maybe its this and maybe it could be that conversation is that it isn't this, that or the other thing, but:



HDTiVo said:


> Based on all that has happened to TiVo over the years, with their various attempts, the evidence is clear that is the right strategy.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

fredct said:


> Why is the last 10-Q (from July) so 'out of date' that its 'irrelevant'?


Because it undercuts his argument, and that frustrates him. 



fredct said:


> Because TiVo doesn't seem to have changed its tune - their last 10-Q, again, from July, says "We sell this hardware as a means to grow our service revenues and, as a result, do not intend to generate positive gross margins from these hardware sales."


Precisely. Anyone who thinks TiVo doesn't lose money on hardware is just deluding himself.



fredct said:


> It is absolutely true that higher prices do not necessarily mean more profit or even more revenue. But neither do lower prices necessarily mean more profit or revenue. This is entirely dependent on the economics of the specific business and the shape and elasticity of the particular demand curve in question.
> 
> Neither you nor I, nor even the people at TiVo, have an exact idea what the specific demand curves look like. But they sure as heck have a lot more information than you and I on the subject.


100% correct. It is easy to sit back and whine about things, implying you could do better, but the reality is that professionals with marketing and cost data do a far far far far better job than amateurs posting on the Internet.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> Based on all that has happened to TiVo over the years, with their various attempts, the evidence is clear that is the right strategy.


Actually, a more plausible interpretation is that the right strategy is to find some other market, because this one isn't profitable.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bicker said:


> Because it undercuts his argument, and that frustrates him.
> 
> Precisely. Anyone who thinks TiVo doesn't lose money on hardware is just deluding himself.
> 
> 100% correct. It is easy to sit back and whine about things, implying you could do better, but the reality is that professionals with marketing and cost data do a far far far far better job than amateurs posting on the Internet.


The blind leading the blind is really unhelpful. That's just your usual FUD. You know very well I account for EVERYTHING at all times. You just want to troll and make it impossible for people to learn anything.

Now if you ever come up with anything of substance to contribute to this topic, post it. But don't disparage me with your uninitiated nonsense.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Back at you! 

And remarkably, my message here has as much value as your message it replies to.... imagine that.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

fredct said:


> On their latest 10-Q financial report, hardware revenues was $6.2 million, while 'cost of hardware revenue' was $28.3 million.. That's $22.1 million lost on hardware sales. That means, on average, they sold each box for less than a quarter of what it cost them to make it (after rebate, etc).
> 
> Okay, the fine print says they impaired about $12 million of charges for unsold inventory (both finished products and raw goods) this quarter. But even taking that out, that's still $6.2 million on revenue of $16 million of cost. Which means they sell each box for ~40% of what it costs them.
> 
> While I'd be interested to know there's some other factor in the accounting that doesn't make it as it first appears, the hardware loss still does look like a real and substantial issue.


I entirely agree with your overall point. TiVo has always lost money on hardware, and it will continue to lose money on hardware for the near future. HDTiVo is being a bit disingeneous: he knows TiVo loses money on most of the TiVoHDs that are sold. They make a profit on those they sell directly through tivo.com at full price, but lose money on any TiVo sold through a retail channel (eg Amazon, Best Buy, TiVoCommunity). At some point in the future TiVo may break even on hardware, but I'm not expecting it for a while.

All that being said, your last quarter figures don't mean a lot. Quarterly figures on low volume quarters are much less reliable than annual. Historically, TiVo has been much more in the "it costs 10% more to make than to sell". In the most recent year or two, it's been in the 20% more range, as they really tried to push sales. I would expect it to be in around the 5% more in the near future.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bicker said:


> Actually, a more plausible interpretation is that the right strategy is to find some other market, because this one isn't profitable.


What is necessary is a very comprehensive revamping of the strategy and company on many levels. Pricing and contract terms are just one piece of it. TiVo was actually getting close to sustained profitability, including the ability to grow at a decent rate and still report profits, before they went off course with Rogers' fiasco. That former model needed much work too, but it showed success was likely achievable.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

bicker said:


> Actually, a more plausible interpretation is that the right strategy is to find some other market, because this one isn't profitable.


Yes, I agree (and I do think this is a substantive comment despite HDTiVo). But I think the comment applies to the standalone market, not the entire TiVo market.

The way I see things, last year (giving away free TiVos) was the last attempt of TiVo to base the company on standalone DVRs. The competition from cable company DVRs with their $0 up-front costs has been growing extremely rapidly over the last 3 years. TiVo tried to match that (and it has always been the case that up-front costs dominate purchase decisions), and failed.

I believe TiVo has now decided that the independent standalone DVRs will never be dominant in the DVR market - they can't compete for the mass market DVR. They've settled for the high end of the mass market and try to break even there. Their long-term big profits will come from the cable (and satellite) companies with the small monthly fee and a share of the advertising revenue.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

HDTiVo said:


> What is necessary is a very comprehensive revamping of the strategy and company on many levels. Pricing and contract terms are just one piece of it. TiVo was actually getting close to sustained profitability, including the ability to grow at a decent rate and still report profits, before they went off course with Rogers' fiasco. That former model needed much work too, but it showed success was likely achievable.


They were nowhere close to sustained profitability because of the specter of cable company DVRs entering the market place. It's a changing world and they had to capture a much larger share of the market before the cable company DVRs got entrenched. TiVo tried and failed, but it was their last chance at that approach.

My view is that the failure wasn't all that bad for TiVo. Can you imagine what the last year sub numbers would have been like if they hadn't been giving away TiVos? It served to keep the sub numbers somewhat up while bridging to the subs from Comcast.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> HDTiVo is being a bit disingeneous: he knows TiVo loses money on most of the TiVoHDs that are sold. They make a profit on those they sell directly through tivo.com at full price, but lose money on any TiVo sold through a retail channel (eg Amazon, Best Buy, TiVoCommunity). At some point in the future TiVo may break even on hardware, but I'm not expecting it for a while.


I don't mean it disingenuously. I know there is some modest loss on TiVo HD sales, which I have written many times before. It is pretty small compared to losses over the past couple of years, so the $6.95 MSD rate certainly wasn't a bad deal for TiVo, which had offered it for a long time on hardware with much bigger losses.

What I am also saying is that there are many other costs which are not variable (HW loss is largely per unit) to be spread over whatever units manage to get sold (Gross Adds). Those costs dwarf the hardware cost issue - even the larger cost of the past - and volume drives them down (ie. SAC) to levels where lower sub fees make business sense over the entire enterprise because there are many more subs producing more total gross profit on service.

So I don't talk about charging $X/mo for the sake of saying it. I look at all TiVo's costs and the trends of sales and other factors to figure out if it is in fact likely to be practical. On top of that is future business development in non-sub fee revenue (like video sales, advertising, etc.) and the positive effect a larger sub base and higher growth rate would have on those.

I think TiVo should have given the THD a chance to shine in sales before messing with MSD. They are not known for making good decisions as their past performance has demonstrated. The other part - $12.95/mo and lower pre-pays - are an improvement; they are volume drivers. But as I said earlier, I don't think the entire price plan is going to move things very much one way or another.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

I just signed up for the 3 year plan at 6.95 a month. At the end of the 3 years can I still get it at the old MSD rate of 6.95?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> I just signed up for the 3 year plan at 6.95 a month. At the end of the 3 years can I still get it at the old MSD rate of 6.95?


No, you would go back to the current monthly MSD rate (whatever that may be in 3 years; currently 9.95). Or you can sign up again for whatever plan they may have at the time.

At least that is my understanding. Sound right?


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> No, you would go back to the current monthly MSD rate (whatever that may be in 3 years; currently 9.95). Or you can sign up again for whatever plan they may have at the time.
> 
> At least that is my understanding. Sound right?


Didn't Pony say that If you had a box prior to this pricing change that it wouldn't effect current boxes on your account? I had a box that just came off of the 1 year lifetime promotion and it automatically went to the 6.95 rate. I would expect that this TiVo would do the same thing since I signed up before they "raised" the rates for the MSD pricing. Plus I just moved to NY and found out that all my TiVo's are going to be taxed. So instead of paying 6.95 a month I now have to pay 7.55 a month.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

According to the TiVo website, upon expiration of the contract your box would be charged at the "then-applicable monthly rate", whatever that may be.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

CrispyCritter said:


> Their long-term big profits will come from the cable (and satellite) companies with the small monthly fee and a share of the advertising revenue.


Absolutely. That "holy grail" that people have been pursuing for years, of an affordable HD DVR without subscription, isn't going to be the most profitable use of the required capital for ANY company. Though, I'm not sure that even with the deals with companies like Comcast whether "big" profits will be forthcoming -- but at least there is a CHANCE of that happening that way.


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## soopergeek (Nov 7, 2007)

Guys,

I just changed my 3yr prepay MSD to the $99 1yr prepay. I was still within the 30 days.

Why did I do this? **Because it is very likely that within the next year SDV WILL RENDER MY TIVO USELESS**

I'm thrilled to have an escape plan.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> They were nowhere close to sustained profitability because of the specter of cable company DVRs entering the market place. It's a changing world and they had to capture a much larger share of the market before the cable company DVRs got entrenched. TiVo tried and failed, but it was their last chance at that approach.
> 
> My view is that the failure wasn't all that bad for TiVo. Can you imagine what the last year sub numbers would have been like if they hadn't been giving away TiVos? It served to keep the sub numbers somewhat up while bridging to the subs from Comcast.


I have other views beyond this specific topic which address the changing world problem.

TiVo failed because they made many mistakes. Deducing that the market isn't there based on TiVo's poor performance isn't right. There is an excellent chance that the market was and is there. Despite "generic" cable offerings, the DVR business (and extensions beyond DVR) is still not in a cannibalization stage, but expanding to offer opportunity to many players .

Note also that successful cable DVR uptake is leading to price increases. That gives TiVo an even better chance to make hay, but you don't raise a price until you've established your product and can see that a price increase can increase profits.

You are saying that CableSoft is the future, but how do you get to the numbers needed when you look at the whole enterprise, even if it is downsized significantly? Even looking at the rather successful DTV relationship and extending that to cablesoft, those revenues didn't amount to enough to make up for other costs. I'd like to see how you are calculating this.

You are betting on the success of something before it has even one paying customer. TiVo does this all the time, saying this or that is going to be great and then it doesn't pan out. I think there will be alot of cablesoft customers, but its a big stretch to get to levels that result in profits overall.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> I had a box that just came off of the 1 year lifetime promotion and it automatically went to the 6.95 rate.


Did it automatically go to 6.95/monthly? Why did you then call and sign up for a 3 yr plan to get the 6.95/month rate? We talking about the same box here?

Not that it matters, just wondering why when mine came off that promotion they wanted to charge me 12.95/month.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

HDTiVo said:


> I think TiVo should have given the THD a chance to shine in sales before messing with MSD. They are not known for making good decisions as their past performance has demonstrated. The other part - $12.95/mo and lower pre-pays - are an improvement; they are volume drivers. But as I said earlier, I don't think the entire price plan is going to move things very much one way or another.


I agree with that.

The new price plans are much simpler and to be preferred. TiVo doesn't need the messy contracts any more. The contracts were directly tied to the giving away of the free TiVos (and massive subsidies of the DT). They needed to both tie the user to the TiVo service and recoup the expense of the free TiVo. Now that the focus is on the TiVoHD at a nondiscounted price, contracts are unnecessary.

Yes, the MSD increase will certainly reduce sales of the TiVoHD. But not by much: $36 a year is not a lot, and it only affects a small portion of the market. The decrease from $16.95 to $12.95 will drive TiVoHD sales higher by much more.


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## holligl (Dec 28, 2004)

As long as they grandfather the previous MSD, the new lifetime cost would equivalent to 4.8 years, not even considering the time value of money. Glad I pulled the trigger earlier. We will probably keep our S2 Lifetime rolling as long as there is an analog feed (may not be that long), just for overflow programing we don't need on the THD.

TiVo needs to recognize that until SDV is addressed, they will have one major disadvantage/flaw in comparison to the cable company equipment.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> Did it automatically go to 6.95/monthly? Why did you then call and sign up for a 3 yr plan to get the 6.95/month rate? We talking about the same box here?
> 
> Not that it matters, just wondering why when mine came off that promotion they wanted to charge me 12.95/month.


I have several TiVo's. I transferred a seres II lifetime to the Series III when they ran the first promotion. I then tried to transferred a series II lifetime to the TiVoHD not realizing that I already transferred that same lifetime to the Series III last year. I did the only thing that made sense. I signed up for the 3 year plan at 6.95 a month.

The series II TiVo that the lifetime service was up on automatically switch to 6.95 a month without a commitment plan. That was my understanding when I took TiVo up on their first promotion lifetime offer.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> The series II TiVo that the lifetime service was up on automatically switch to 6.95 a month without a commitment plan. That was my understanding when I took TiVo up on their first promotion lifetime offer.


Mine too.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> Mine too.


I think I spoke to soon. TiVo royally screwed up several of my TiVo's on manage my account. Now I get the privilege to speak to one of the nice folks over a customer service to try and get this all straighten out. What's with the sarcastic face?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> What's with the sarcastic face?


Rolling my eyes at Tivo. 

Good luck.


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

Pony has said he'd look into the Box's we transfered the Lifetimes from. Lets *HOPE* we get some acknowledgment of our situations. 

I mean, after all we are Tivo's most loyal customers. A tip of the hat would go a long way. It could only be for owners who are in the know.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> I agree with that.
> 
> The new price plans are much simpler and to be preferred. TiVo doesn't need the messy contracts any more. The contracts were directly tied to the giving away of the free TiVos (and massive subsidies of the DT). They needed to both tie the user to the TiVo service and recoup the expense of the free TiVo. Now that the focus is on the TiVoHD at a nondiscounted price, contracts are unnecessary.
> 
> Yes, the MSD increase will certainly reduce sales of the TiVoHD. But not by much: $36 a year is not a lot, and it only affects a small portion of the market. The decrease from $16.95 to $12.95 will drive TiVoHD sales higher by much more.


Yes, exactly. The higher prices and terms drive overall profits down, while lower prices and less terms drive profits up. That is within the range of the reasonable numbers we are dealing with; for as counter example, $3.95/mo for service probably drives profits down not up.

In reality they didn't even need the contracts. That just drove sales away and costs excessively high. In reality, on average people who get TiVoes keep them around for a long time without any contractual bind. A related irony here has been that old TiVoes have been discouraged from being resubscribed. Old TiVoes incur virtually no SAC and certainly zero HW subsidy. It was all quite screwy.

Now the $12.95 is much better, but even the 1yr contract is not a good idea, just as you mention too.

$6.95 to $9.95 is a big jump. I don't believe looking at it as $36 per year and saying that's not much is the right way to predict the effects. Its not that those aren't literally true numbers, but the way people behave/react in the marketplace doesn't comport with looking at it from that angle.

In the end predicting that 16.95 to 12.95 will boost more than 6.95 to 9.95 takes off is pretty hard. We don't know what the mix has been. We don't know how much TTG/MRV would affect the mix now that there is much greater reason to have multiple hi def units. There are the myriad circumstances like the example I gave earlier which is common to many multi-TiVo owners where getting a THD and keeping an old S2 subbed really means the old S2 is costing me $9.95 a month, which means I drop the S2 and still pay $6.95 for the THD. So TiVo doesn't gain $3, it loses $6.95.

So it is a very muddy thing to predict. If it were me, and especially if it were TiVo with its poor predictive track record, I'd say I'll take the small loss on the THD units because the $6.95 contributes enough margin to help pay for the entire corporate expenses, and I'd let myself have a real nice Q4 relative to anything I've seen in a very long time, and let those results generate buzz everywhere from consumers and retailers to wall street; and then I'll decide whether to raise that price a bit because the sales are justifying it.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

gilbreen said:


> Any updates on how Tivo is addressing Tivos that were recently purchased but had not been activated? I have one enroute to me but now see the change to the MSD pricing.


I think you'd have to talk to a sympathetic CSR, if you want the current "old" rates.


> I just activated 3 Tivo HDs in the last two weeks so still weighing my options about getting lifetime on one or some of them since I am within the first 30-day window.
> 
> I have a Series 1 with Lifetime so am paying the $6.95 on each of the Tivo HDs. Since TivoPony stated that you can maintain the same number of 'old' MSDs and swap out Tivos as appropriate, one thought is to cancel one of the TivoHDs, purchase Lifetime on it, swap in the new Tivo coming (it is an S2 DT for one one non-HDTV) and then eventually sell the Series 1 with Lifetime.
> 
> The question is whether or not the TivoHD with Lifetime would be a qualifying subscription to keep the others at the $6.95 MSD since it wasn't the original subscription at the time I signed up the other MSD boxes.


Yes, the THD you put Pruduct Lifetine on would become the qualifying unit for MSD. You should swap the new one in first to maintain that level of MSD, then put the THD on Lifetime, then eliminate the Series 1.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

pheezie said:


> I just bought the series 2 single tuner and a dual tuner what is the best way to get both rebates and activate both boxes?
> I want the 1 year prepaid so is that $129 + $99 or is it $99 + $99 but from what I have read I might have to pay the $12.95 for the first box then I'll get either $9.95 per month or $99 a yr on the second.
> The more I'm reading the more confused I'm starting to get please tell me the best way to set these 2 DVR's up at the best price and still qualify for the rebate.


If you have no already activated TiVos, you need to activate one at the non-MSD rate, which would be $129/yr or other prepay rates, or $12.95/month. The second one you can activate with an MSD rate ($9.95/mont, $99/Yr, $399 Product Lifetime).


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

I could have sworn that TiVoPony said that if you currently own a box that is enjoying the $6.95 MSD price, that you're grandfathered at that price for life. That is, as long as you maintain a qualifying box after your contract is up, you can keep paying $6.95 month-to-month, with no contract. What's more, I thought he said you could even buy a new TiVo whenever your want and transfer your $6.95 subcription onto the new box, so that you can always keep up with the latest technology, and still keep your $6.95 price with no contract.

The only proviso, IIRC, is if you let your qualify box lapse in its sub, even briefly, because once that happens, you lose your $6.95 golden goose, and he can't be resurrected. He's dead forever.

Did I read him incorrectly?

I thought the $9.95 was for new MSD activations, not transferred or renewed activations.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

timckelley said:


> I could have sworn that TiVoPony said that if you currently own a box that is enjoying the $6.95 MSD price, that you're grandfathered at that price for life. That is, as long as you maintain a qualifying box after your contract is up, you can keep paying $6.95 month-to-month, with no contract. What's more, I thought he said you could even buy a new TiVo whenever your want and transfer your $6.95 subcription onto the new box, so that you can always keep up with the latest technology, and still keep your $6.95 price with no contract.
> 
> The only proviso, IIRC, is if you let your qualify box lapse in its sub, even briefly, because once that happens, you lose your $6.95 golden goose, and he can't be resurrected. He's dead forever.
> 
> Did I read him incorrectly?


I am sure he wouldn't say "grandfathered at that price *for * *life*." They are not changing the price of existing $6.95 month to month customers now, but they are not going to commit to never changing that price.

The dying qualifyer is something I am wondering about too. What becomes your qualifying subscription if you do not get another TiVo, and does that lead to losing one of your grandfathered $6.95'ers? If you do get another TiVo it would seem you sub that as a full rate qualifier. You can slip this in before the dead one drops out of your account.

I think the trick to understanding this will be you must keep a qualifying subscription alive at all times. If that is so, there are scenarios where you might need to buy another box and forgo a rebate.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> You are grandfathered at $6.95/mo MSD for that box, *as long as you have a second box on your account that acts as the qualifying box.*
> 
> If you remove the qualifying box, MSD doesn't apply anymore (same as it's always been).
> 
> ...


I bolded the applicable part of his post that seems to suggested a lifetime grandfathering of the $6.95 rate, and also note that he does say you can transfer that grandfathered deal onto a new S3 or S4 whenever you want.



HDTiVo said:


> I think the trick to understanding this will be you must keep a qualifying subscription alive at all times.


Yes indeed that's true, and so people who are lucky enough to have this deal should think hard before allowing their qualifying box's sub to lapse, even for a brief time. Because all it takes is a one day lapse for your $6.95 deal to be gone forever.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

timckelley said:


> I bolded the applicable part of his post that seems to suggested a lifetime grandfathering of the $6.95 rate,


You have a fairly active imagination.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Well, the only condition he put was that you must have a qualifying box. He didn't say "or until we come up with new rates". For that matter, the new rates are here, with no $6.95 among them, yet the grandfathering continues. Reading him literally, since he only names the one condition, the lifetime nature (so long you keep a qualifying box) is the way I infer it.

Perhaps TiVoPony should clarify here in this thread.

BTW, that why earlier in this thread, I referred to the $6.95 deal as being the new 'golden goose' that yesteryear's lifetime sub was. But the difference is, when they got rid of lifetime, we had some notice, and many people (include me) jumped on it, and converted our subs to lifetime. As far as I know, the axing of the $6.95 deal for new activations was given to us with no notice. So it's too late for anybody to generate a new $6.95 subscription.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

Why is TiVo making this so difficult for current customers to understand. You need a freaking lawyer to try and figure all this out. How this is suppose to attract new customers, I have no idea.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Generally, such things are complicated because customers are unwilling to pay the price associated with a simple pricing scheme, i.e., $12.95 per month, one year commitment, no matter what.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ufo4sale said:


> You need a freaking lawyer to try and figure all this out. How this is suppose to attract new customers, I have no idea.


*New * customers can now get by with a second year associate who's billable rate is much lower. 



bicker said:


> Generally, such things are complicated because customers are unwilling to pay the price associated with a simple pricing scheme, i.e., $12.95 per month, one year commitment, no matter what.


Nah, its more the result of the tendency of small minds to complicate things way beyond what is needed.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

What's so difficult to understand? I have absolutely no problem understanding the previous pricing structure, and the current one is much simpler. And no, I'm not a lawyer.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

c3 said:


> What's so difficult to understand? I have absolutely no problem understanding the previous pricing structure, and the current one is much simpler. And no, I'm not a lawyer.


If it was so easy to understand then why are so many people confused about TiVo's that are in transition? I'm not the only one that's confused by this.


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## fredct (Nov 15, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> If it was so easy to understand then why are so many people confused about TiVo's that are in transition? I'm not the only one that's confused by this.


Because that's problem, the transition. Moving from one plan to the other can be confusing for people who still have stuff signed up the old way.

And in fact, much of that is even for people who bought just in the last couple days to last couple months.

A transition is almost always going to be confusing, but the new pricing plan itself actually is pretty straight forward.


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

dswallow said:


> October 13 is less than 30 days ago; you should be able to cancel the prepay service, get a full refund, and buy the lifetime plan if you want.
> 
> Of course you also probably removed your Series 2 from your account, and that'd need to go back before you could buy the lifetime plan for the TiVo HD (unless you've got other TiVo's on your account already), so the whole thing may be rather convoluted to work out, but if you're patient, you should be able to get it done.
> 
> I'm not really sure $399 for lifetime is all that good a deal anymore... we'll have to wait and see if that value is retained on resale or not; there might be a general feeling that a lifetime deal of some sort will happen often enough that resale of older equipment with lifetime may take a price hit.


I decided to risk it. The cs rep just let me change my 3 yr. prepaid service (which I bought four week ago today) to lifetime for an additional $100. She also did it without having to cancel my service and immediately charge me the $399 while I wait for a refund of the $299.

In a few weeks I'll likely cancel my old S2 and resubscribe it at the new 9.95 MSD (though obviously 6.95 would have been better, considering how little I'll use this box!)


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## dangled (Nov 11, 2007)

I qualify for TiVo's Multi-Service Discount (and $399 lifetime offer), and I purchased a new Series 3 from an online retailer (expecting it to arrive next week).

Question: will I see the $399 lifetime offer when I activate the S3 on TiVo.com or does the $399 lifetime offer apply only to S3's purchased directly from TiVo?

Thank you.


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## tough joe (Sep 16, 2006)

hello

i have a series 2 ST 40 hour tivo with lifetime and a series 2 DT 550 hour with lifetime. I would love to be able to sell my single tunner with lifetime on ebay and buy a new series 3 with lifetime.

the web site https://www3.tivo.com/store/plans.do states "You must be an existing registered account holder with a "Qualifying Subscription" pursuant to TiVo's Multi-Service Discount Agreement to be eligible for purchase a Product Lifetime Subscription."

what does the "qualifying subscription" mean?


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

jrog said:


> Well, it's actually not better for multi users, and what about multi users with Lifetime units as well? It's still more money per month than it was before???
> 
> This is getting ridiculous. I'll need an abacus before the day is out to find out how much I will pay Tivo every year.


I'm with you. I was about to trade my 540 for an HD box at Christmas, which is about the time my S2DT will be 1 year old. I'm on the 3 year committment plan for $12.95 plus the MSD for $6.95. And as I understand the new plan if I took a lifetime on the HD unit I'd be paying $9.95 MSD on the S2DT.

But if I go with monthly it's $12.95 plus $9.95, which means an increase.

So for me technically I might be better off long term dumping both SD boxes and just get a lifetime on an HD box and see what happens after Feb, no?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tough joe said:


> hello
> 
> i have a series 2 ST 40 hour tivo with lifetime and a series 2 DT 550 hour with lifetime. I would love to be able to sell my single tunner with lifetime on ebay and buy a new series 3 with lifetime.
> 
> ...


it means if you manage to sell you S2 ST here without having to pay ebay the DT will, of course, work fine as the qualifying subscription for buying a new lifetime on an HD unit


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## renkablue (Sep 16, 2007)

TiVoPony said:


> Hey all,
> 
> We wanted to give everyone a heads up on special prices for the TiVo Service, available now thru February 2nd, for new TiVo DVR purchases. I know some information was leaked early, that was unfortunate...we hate leaks. But now we can share more details.
> 
> ...


I have been looking into an upgrade to HD tv and DVR after the 1st of the year. Let me ask if I understand this correctly. I am a current subscriber and if I purchase the Tivo Hd before Feb 2 for the special price of $399 I get the product lifetime - activating the 2nd box would get me a discount monthly price on the 1st Tivo? Am I missing something here?


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

renkablue said:


> activating the 2nd box would get me a discount monthly price on the 1st Tivo?


No, the price of the 1st TiVo does not change. MSD rate applies only at the time of activation, not afterwards. If your 1st TiVo is not under contract, you can cancel and re-subscribe after adding the lifetime unit.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

c3 said:


> What's so difficult to understand? I have absolutely no problem understanding the previous pricing structure, and the current one is much simpler. And no, I'm not a lawyer.


It doesn't matter whether or not *YOU* have a problem understanding the pricing. There are 988 replies to the Fall 2006 pricing thread. Some of the replies were simple *****ing but other replies clearly indicate that *many* people were genuinely confused.

Yes the recent changes simplified things a bit, but there are still many confused people. Just read all the comments and requests for clarification.

Plus there are many people, like me, who do "bleeding edge" technical stuff at work. We just want to relax at home. I'm sure I *could* take the time to make sense of the pricing, but I shouldn't have to. TiVo is not simplifying my life!


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## samaritan66 (Dec 19, 2006)

renkablue said:


> I have been looking into an upgrade to HD tv and DVR after the 1st of the year. Let me ask if I understand this correctly. I am a current subscriber and if I purchase the Tivo Hd before Feb 2 for the special price of $399 I get the product lifetime - activating the 2nd box would get me a discount monthly price on the 1st Tivo? Am I missing something here?


I'm pretty sure it will be Tivo HD box for $299 and the Lifetime for $399 (assuming you're a current subscriber, which I would bet you are) for a total of $698.

Otherwise, lifetime is only costing you $100 over the cost of the box.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

To be fair, I doubt those 988 replies translate into 988 instances of confusion. As a matter of fact, if I remember correct, there were a substantial number of messages that were instances of upset rather than confusion. Indeed, even confusion can stem strictly from frustration and disappointment rather than genuine lack of cogency of the information provided (i.e., people refusing to understand what they don't want to understand).

Just sayin'...


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## samaritan66 (Dec 19, 2006)

bicker said:


> To be fair, I doubt those 988 replies translate into 988 instances of confusion. As a matter of fact, if I remember correct, there were a substantial number of messages that were instances of upset rather than confusion. Indeed, even confusion can stem strictly from frustration and disappointment rather than genuine lack of cogency of the information provided (i.e., people refusing to understand what they don't want to understand).
> 
> Just sayin'...


Bicker,

One could argue the content of your last post in this pricing thread proved your point.


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## JFalc (May 3, 2005)

I am not happy with the price increases per month.
HOWEVER, one thing didnt make sense to me about the old pricing.

I was just told last week that i had to commit to 3 years to get $6.95 pricing per month for a series 2 DT.

but Analog TV signals are going to expire in the next couple years and be all digital.

So why does TIVO require you to commit to 3 years to get the best pricing.

I think this may have been a part of it (maybe also the Comcast increase).

-John


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

JFalc said:


> but Analog TV signals are going to expire in the next couple years and be all digital.


Commitment is for TiVo service, not hardware. You're free to change the hardware as often as you like (other than lifetime service).


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## nocturne1 (Aug 17, 2004)

nocturne1 said:


> So I just bought a TivoHD 3 months ago under a 3 year commitment (MSD). And a DT just came off a 1 year pre-pay last month (and is now at $18ish/month....*grumble*).
> 
> The way I read this, the only way that I can get anything with lifetime is to buy a NEW unit? I can't transfer my commitment to my DT, and pay for lifetime on the HD?


After 90 minutes on the phone with 3 people (most of it on hold), I was able to transfer my MSD 3 year monthly commitment to my DT, and buy a lifetime for my HD. Initially talked to billing, who said they couldn't do anything, so they sent me to tech support. He couldn't make the mods to my account either, so I was sent to retention. After getting there, I was all set within 10 minutes. So it seems that that group has the most leeway in getting things done, at least in my situation.

I'm glad TiVo made things work out the way I wanted. I still think it's incredibly stupid that it took so much time/effort to do so though. First rule in business is always make it easy for a customer to give you money.....


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

Only analog over the air ends 2/2009.

Cable companies still must support their analog subscribers until 2/2012 by either continuing to send broadcast channels analog down the coax or providing a cable box.

I'm sticking with my S2 DT (on the $6.95/month plan) for awhile.



JFalc said:


> but Analog TV signals are going to expire in the next couple years and be all digital.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

nocturne1 said:


> After 90 minutes on the phone with 3 people (most of it on hold), I was able to transfer my MSD 3 year monthly commitment to my DT, and buy a lifetime for my HD. Initially talked to billing, who said they couldn't do anything, so they sent me to tech support. He couldn't make the mods to my account either, so I was sent to retention. After getting there, I was all set within 10 minutes. So it seems that that group has the most leeway in getting things done, at least in my situation.
> 
> I'm glad TiVo made things work out the way I wanted. I still think it's incredibly stupid that it took so much time/effort to do so though. First rule in business is always make it easy for a customer to give you money.....


I think that's the most irritating part. For something that's supposed to make life more simple it shouldn't have to take you, the customer, to figure out what you're entitled to do and then have to invest a hour in phone tag to get the provider to do what they should have known how to on the 1st level.

From my experience it can be nearly impossible to convince a lower level rep that you need help from a higher power.

I can appreciate Pony's comment to be kind to the 1st tier. After all, everybody has to start somewhere. But I know when I used to work a customer service position if the customer was convinced I couldn't help I had no problems movin' the matter up the food chain until I gained the experience to do about anything a supervisor could and on occasion only needed a procedural signoff to process the matter. I actually took pride in getting it right the 1st time most every time.


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## ebf (Mar 21, 2005)

ncbill said:


> Only analog over the air ends 2/2009.
> 
> Cable companies still must support their analog subscribers until 2/2012 by either continuing to send broadcast channels analog down the coax or providing a cable box ...


Where did you here the part about analog over coax until 2012?


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

I've waited for a few days to calm but it hasn't really happened so I am posting now. I have to say I am pretty pissed off that I didn't wait to get my TiVo HD. Looking through my mail I see it shipped Oct 1st, activated I guess a few days later and went with the 3 year plan to get the 6.95, still outside the 30 day window. I'd have never done that had I known lifetime was right around the corner. I am tired of TiVo pricing changes. I seem to be the one always hosed.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

brianlees said:


> Is lifetime even worth it? After three years, aren't we just going to replace these units anyway? Or, is itjust me that feels this way?


If you buy the lifetime, that means you are much more likely to use it longer or at worst, sell it for more if you quit using it. I have an old series 1 with lifetime that I still use.

Chris


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ebf said:


> ncbill said:
> 
> 
> > Only analog over the air ends 2/2009. Cable companies still must support their analog subscribers until 2/2012 by either continuing to send broadcast channels analog down the coax *or providing a cable box.*
> ...


It's one of the two options mentioned in the FCC order.


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## Dick Kalagher (Jan 13, 2000)

I've read through this whole thread and the fine print on TiVo's site and I still can't figure out the answer to the following:

I buy 2 HD TiVos. Prepay $129 for one year on the first and $99 for one year on the second. What happens after the one year (assuming rates have not gone up)??

1. Can I prepay another year at the same price?

2. Do I pay monthly at $129/12 and $99/12?

3. Do I pay monthly $12.95 plus $9.95?

4. Can I choose a new plan (3 year, 2 year, etc)?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

nocturne1 said:


> I'm glad TiVo made things work out the way I wanted. I still think it's incredibly stupid that it took so much time/effort to do so though. First rule in business is always make it easy for a customer to give you money.....


you could have done all that at www.tivo.com - manage my account.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

After a year they will have gone through at least 3 more rate changes.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you could have done all that at www.tivo.com - manage my account.


nocturne1 was swapping units, so he would need a third inactive unit to do it at MMA.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Arcady said:


> After a year they will have gone through at least 3 more rate changes.


I guess once they find a pricing structure that works to make them profitable, they'll stop changing it so often. I'm not sure why they have more trouble being profitable than does their competition - maybe it's because their DVR is better, and therefore more expensive to produce? I (and probably many others) want a high quality DVR, but we don't want to pay a lot to get it. I guess those can be two conflicting desires. Or, if TiVo is to meet both desires, that makes it hard for them to be profitable.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> If it was so easy to understand then why are so many people confused about TiVo's that are in transition? I'm not the only one that's confused by this.


It is really simple to work with when you understand you can go online to manage my account and transfer subs around. The only caveat to watch out for is a penalty fee on early termination.

for my case
So I have two ToShiVo's that have been on month to month MSD for some time. They stayed at 6.95 adn will continue as long as I keep them active on some box. I also have a lifetimes 240 model to qualify MSD on all the other boxes.

I have a DT I bought on a 1 year package deal. It ends in January. All I need to do is wait until February, when the package agreemnet ends, and then transfer one of the month to month to the DT online at tivo.com by entering TSN numbers.

I will buy a HD and transfer the other Month to month to it. I could buy lifetime on it, also online, but since I can keep it 6.95 I see no need to spend the money for lifetime.

If I did not have the grandfathered month to month then it would be a simple buy lifetime or pay 99$ MSD prepay for a year as my best options.

If it was my first box ever then no lifetime and I can pay 12.95 a month for a year or prepay 129$ for the year.

This is all 6th grade logic at most. The long thread is really about trying to find some wya to go even cheaper or just be frustrated that new MSD subs went up to 9.95. Also you have the fringe group that did something in the past 30 days they want to retract now that they new info is out. You could eliminate 50% of this thread if they just called TiVo instead.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

timckelley said:


> I guess once that find a pricing structure that works to make them profitable, they'll stop changing it so often. I'm not sure why they have more trouble being profitable than does their competition - maybe it's because their DVR is better, and therefore more expensive to produce?


Please tell me who their competition is that is profitable?

Replay TV? out of business
Microsoft Ultimate? out of business
Moxi? left for a while and is now back for another try (no sign of profitability)
Sony? Has very expensive high end DVR's - no sign of profitability
There's a couple of other high end, very low volume DVRs out there, but no profits.

The satellite and cable companies, as far as I know, are forbidden to make a profit on their DVRs. They make their profits on the services.

Who precisely did you have in mind?


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## Rucker (Sep 21, 2006)

I did the lifetime transfer to an S3 a year ago, and got the 1yr "free" prepaid on my S1. I called Nov 1 to cancel the S1 and a retention rep pitched a deal including a discounted THD and $6.95mtm.

I called back Nov 3 to verify and accept the offer. I received the THD Friday, and called last night to get the service set up. After waiting on hold approximately 40 mins to talk to someone that couldn't help me, I was put on hold for another ~30 mins to talk to someone that didn't seem to know what he was doing. He transferred the 1yr service from the S1 to the THD and said I'd get the monthly rate when it expires later this month. He wasn't speaking in specific terms (like he wasn't sure what the answer was), but I was so sick of the 80 min call, that I couldn't bear to continue with someone that didn't seem to know his stuff (or wait another 30 mins for a 3rd person). I figured I'd call back next week when the 1yr is up. 

So my question... will it be converted to $12.95/mo, $9.95/mo, or the $6.95/mo rate I was quoted? And if it won't be the $6.95 rate I was quoted, who do I have to talk to to get it fixed? I don't know if I can bear another 80 min call.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Please tell me who their competition is that is profitable?
> 
> Who precisely did you have in mind?


I was thinking of cable companies, but I see I spoke too quickly, as you accurately bring up the point that just because a cable company is profitable, doesn't mean the DVR end of it is profitable... maybe it's the service end that's making them their money.

So if you isolate the DVR industry by itself, with no dilution, maybe nobody's profitable.

Also, maybe the cable companies figure it's okay to lose money on DVRs if it means they attract more service-paying customers. This sound like a disadvantage for TiVo Corp, as they don't have that luxary.


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## nocturne1 (Aug 17, 2004)

c3 said:


> nocturne1 was swapping units, so he would need a third inactive unit to do it at MMA.


I actually do have a 3rd inactive device (well, technically a TiVo Basic one). Saw that service could be transferred, but the website says that they basically support it for warranty/store replacements. So I didn't want to chance screwing things up, just in case. But I did think about trying that during the 90 minutes on the phone...


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> It is really simple to work with when you understand you can go online to manage my account and transfer subs around. The only caveat to watch out for is a penalty fee on early termination.
> 
> for my case
> So I have two ToShiVo's that have been on month to month MSD for some time. They stayed at 6.95 adn will continue as long as I keep them active on some box. I also have a lifetimes 240 model to qualify MSD on all the other boxes.
> ...


I don't know what part of this post to quote so i'll quote the whole thing. You don't automatically go to the 6.95 rate or at least I didn't. When I took TiVo up on the first lifetime series III transfer last year it went to 9.95 instead of 6.95 so even though I should of been "grandfathered" at that price I wasn't. So I called TiVo to see if I can get the 6.95 rate and they said NO because the new MSD rate was 9.95. Apparently I missed the cut off date by 3 days even though this TiVo was several years old. I spoke to a low level agent and a supervisor and asked If I could sign up for the 6.95 rate for 3 years and they said that they couldn't do it. Even though I have 6 active TiVo's and have been "with" the company for 7 years. 
I called TiVo back to cancel one of my Tivo's and she said that you don't have to do that. She offered me a 6.95 rate for life with no commitments. I took her up on her offer and I've been a happy customer ever since.

Like I said it is confusing for TiVo's in TRANSITION and not for new customers. Even one of TiVo's marketing executives can't answer some of our question so it's not as simple, for transition TiVo's, as some people think.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

timckelley said:


> I was thinking of cable companies, but I see I spoke too quickly, as you accurately bring up the point that just because a cable company is profitable, doesn't mean the DVR end of it is profitable... maybe it's the service end that's making them their money.
> 
> So if you isolate the DVR industry by itself, with no dilution, maybe nobody's profitable.
> 
> Also, maybe the cable companies figure it's okay to lose money on DVRs if it means they attract more service-paying customers. This sound like a disadvantage for TiVo Corp, as they don't have that luxary.


To look at it another way, Cable makes their money on the programming service, something TiVo doesn't have (to a profitable degree anyways), and can afford to take a bit of loss on DVR service.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Guys,

We appreciate the feedback on the new pricing promotion, we're glad to hear feedback that the options seem simpler to all of you. That was the goal.

There are a couple of corner cases I said I'd look into, specifically whether the MSD of $6.95 would be available for customers who have a box on a '12 month free' service plan (as a result of a previous lifetime transfer), and for customers who just purchased their additional box just prior to the MSD change.

While our policy is that the MSD price is now $9.95, in these two specific cases it may be possible to request an exception for the $6.95 rate. Every customers' case is unique...if you have had that extra DVR in the closet for months and months this wouldn't apply to you. Or if your 'free service' expired some time ago. But for people in this situation for whom there is an obvious overlap with the two MSD plans, a call to our customer support team may help.

Once again I have to add the disclaimer - please don't call and tell the representative that 'the employee on the forum said I could have this'. I haven't and I can't. I don't have those kind of powers. The support staff is the only way to handle this, and they'll evaluate it on a case by case basis. There's actually a fair amount of manual work to enable the old MSD price on a contract, it would not be a simple or short phone conversation (just to set expectations). 

And again, thanks for all of the feedback, it is helpful. 

Cheers,
Pony


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

I was successful at having a DT which was under a 3 yr MSD, has of Sept 14th. I think being a longtime owner of a TiVo might of helped! Now I will have 4 lifetimed TiVos, after I buy Lifetime on a TiVoHD I bought from TiVo.com. One is at a brother's house on dailup, he is looking to buy a new TiVoHD,then he will finish paying me $250 for the old one. 

Another brother has a TiVoHD from TiVo.com. He is going to transfer it, from 1 of my old S1 TiVo's he bought from me. Then later he might get my S2 to give all 3 of us atleast 2 TiVos, Ok, I might have 1 more tuner then them...


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

Thank you Pony!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> Like I said it is confusing for TiVo's in TRANSITION and not for new customers. Even one of TiVo's marketing executives can't answer some of our question so it's not as simple, for transition TiVo's, as some people think.


Well it is simple. As you state, you missed the cutoff by 3 days and did not get the 6.95 rate. What is complicated about that?

TiVoPony can not say who will get the 6.95 exception on transitions since things like when the 1 year expired and so forth occurred. What is complicated about the fact you have to call and find out from a CSR where your transition sub falls?

You called back and said you wanted to cancel the TiVo rather than end up on the 9.95 contract and they retained you at 6.95 month to month. Good for you and again not complicated.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> You called back and said you wanted to cancel the TiVo rather than end up on the 9.95 contract and they retained you at 6.95 month to month. Good for you and again not complicated.


Yeah, this is "great" customer service. You only get the good rates when you threaten to walk away.

There's a similar situation in terms of subscriptions to some magazines. They always want to get you to renew at much higher rates than they offer new customers. I stopped playing that game with them and I stopped subscribing to those magazines altogether.

Loyal customers should automatically get the *best* rates. Any other policy creates resentment and animosity.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Loyal customers should automatically get the *best* rates. Any other policy creates resentment and animosity.


It would be nice if things worked that way, but they don't. You have to think about it from the non-customer stand point. If a customer is already paying and "happy" (meaning not canceling), why offer them a discount?

The cable and phone companies are notorious for doing this. Comcast offers their biggest discounts to new customers while existing customers get no (or very small) discounts.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

If you really were a loyal customer, you wouldn't go around *****ing about a couple dollars a month.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Yeah, this is "great" customer service. You only get the good rates when you threaten to walk away.


It is the Best Practice in this sector. Remember, the objective of customer service isn't making Phantom Gremlin happy; the objective of customer service is helping to provide the best return for the owners of the enterprise.



Phantom Gremlin said:


> Loyal customers should automatically get the *best* rates.


In business, loyal customers, by definition, are those willing to *pay a premium* for your product or service.



Phantom Gremlin said:


> Any other policy creates resentment and animosity.


Most folks don't take business policies as personally as you apparently do.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Well it is simple. As you state, you missed the cutoff by 3 days and did not get the 6.95 rate. What is complicated about that?
> 
> TiVoPony can not say who will get the 6.95 exception on transitions since things like when the 1 year expired and so forth occurred. What is complicated about the fact you have to call and find out from a CSR where your transition sub falls?
> 
> You called back and said you wanted to cancel the TiVo rather than end up on the 9.95 contract and they retained you at 6.95 month to month. Good for you and again not complicated.


I called several days in advance before my one year free service was up and they told me they have NO way to find out what the price will be once the 1 year free service was up. To me this is very complicated because had they told me up front I could of signed up for a 3 year plan at 6.95 a month. Instead I had to waste precious time on the phone to try and get this all straighten out. Now it looks like I'm getting charged for the same TiVo twice all because I couldn't sign up for a new contract before my free one year service one was up.

And another thing that shouldn't be complicated is the ability to see all your DVR'S from manage my account. I have a lifetime TiVo that I can not view even though TiVo has no problem seeing it on my account. I called TiVo several times with this issue and it still hasn't been resolved. This is the kind of sh*t I shouldn't have to deal with.

But like you said it's not complicated so it must be me.

Just a side note, why is it that I have to pay a tax to use TiVo service in NY but if I use any other DVR there are no taxes associated with it?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> I called several days in advance before my one year free service was up and they told me they have NO way to find out what the price will be once the 1 year free service was up. But like you said it's not complicated so it must be me.
> 
> Just a side note, why is it that I have to pay a tax to use TiVo service in NY but if I use any other DVR there are no taxes associated with it?


Well it can be simpler however. TiVo should let CSR's change a plan, especially from free to send them money. The only caveat is the bundle deals that have to run their course.

the other stuff you listed was glitches in the systems not policies.

you have to pay tax for TiVo in NY becasue TiVo has offices in NY and NY law states they thus have to charge tax.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

morac said:


> It would be nice if things worked that way, but they don't. You have to think about it from the non-customer stand point. If a customer is already paying and "happy" (meaning not canceling), why offer them a discount?


There's an extremely important reason to treat existing customers well: *SAC aka Subscriber Acquisition Cost.*

This number is hundreds of $$$s per TiVo customer.

Unhappy customers stop paying. They don't evangelize. They actively badmouth your company. Etc.

This is the essence of how badly TiVo is screwing up. They can't acquire customers because the plans are complicated and confusing. They can't keep customers because the plans are complicated and confusing. E.g. see ufo4sale's post just above. As he said: *This is the kind of sh*t I shouldn't have to deal with.*


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> As he said: *This is the kind of sh*t I shouldn't have to deal with.*


yes, but he was talking about glitches in the system or the fact he could not start a paid contract on his free year when he wanted to. It actually had nothing to do with "complicated" pricing


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

The free service can be cancelled at anytime, and a new service can be started right after that.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

dswallow said:


> If you really were a loyal customer, you wouldn't go around *****ing about a couple dollars a month.


Loyalty is bilateral and reciprocal. Being treated "fairly" is one of the underpinnings of modern social behavior. We may have evolved this way.

For example, see Wikipedia about Inequity Aversion. Some (out of context) choice quotes:

_IA research on humans mostly occurs in the discipline of economics though it is also studied in sociology. Research on IA began in 1978 when studies suggested that humans are sensitive to inequities in favor of as well as those against them_

_Anthropologists suggest that this research indicates a biological and evolutionary sense of social "fair play" in primates, though others believe that this is learned behaviour._


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes, but he was talking about glitches in the system or the fact he could not start a paid contract on his free year when he wanted to. It actually had nothing to do with "complicated" pricing


Yes it does.

If the pricing were simple enough he wouldn't even need to call them in the first place. E.g. Buy lifetime for $300, or $10/mo for your first TiVo, $7/mo each additional. No commitment. Much like it used to be in the old days.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Unhappy customers stop paying. They don't evangelize. They actively badmouth your company. Etc.[/B]


But to stop paying, customers need to call and cancel and that's when companies bend over backwards to keep you. That's why most companies require you to call to cancel so they can throw money at you when you threaten to cancel. That appeases most people.

The customers they may lose from unhappy customers who quit no matter what the deal, is more than made up from the customers they gain by offering sign-up deals.

This is why there is so much churn in the service industry.

In TiVo's case they can't really compete money-wise with cable companies so it's hard to prevent churn, but most people find it very difficult to go to a generic cable DVR after having used the TiVo service.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Yes it does.
> 
> If the pricing were simple enough he wouldn't even need to call them in the first place. E.g. Buy lifetime for $300, or $10/mo for your first TiVo, $7/mo each additional. No commitment. Much like it used to be in the old days.


Your right, I believe at one point TiVo had the lowest churn rate amongs any subscription base service.


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## dbows (Oct 1, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> Hey all,
> 
> If you're an existing customer adding a new box, the best deal of all for that shiny new TiVo DVR is our Product Lifetime Special Price - $399. (Limited time only thru February 2nd for new activations.) Remember - you need to be an existing subscriber to get this.
> 
> Pony


Why are longtime (6+ years) lifetime owners of Tivo from DirectTv not considered existing customers???? I have a DirecTv Tivo with LifeTime and I just bought an HD Tivo which I have hooked to Comcast but I cannot get the MSD/Lifetime because one is with DirecTV.

DirecTv help put Tivo on the map and they have left us people who did that out to dry.

Really disappointing.


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## hddude55 (Jan 5, 2007)

TiVoPony said:


> Guys,
> 
> We appreciate the feedback on the new pricing promotion, we're glad to hear feedback that the options seem simpler to all of you. That was the goal.
> 
> ...


I still have a couple months left on the one year "free" plan and was told by a CSR that when my free period expires there is no chance I can get the $6.95 plan. I called a couple months ago to see about the $6.95 plan since I mistakenly thought my free plan was about done. When I discovered it still had a few months I asked if I could go ahead and sign up for the $6.95 plan to take effect as soon as the free period ended but was told that could not be done. Swell, now I can pay an extra $3 bucks a month.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> Guys,
> 
> We appreciate the feedback on the new pricing promotion, we're glad to hear feedback that the options seem simpler to all of you. That was the goal.
> 
> ...


Tell me about it!

Since I have the S2DT locked into 2 more years at $12.95 as it stands and the 540 (which I had really wanted to drop when I got an S3 as I need an OTA box) as I understand it if I even go lifetime on an S3 the S2DT gets locked into the higher rate.

Longer term of course I'd want a 2nd S3 to replace the S2DT but it would be no time soon before I could afford that too even without the lifetime fee.

I really hate monthly bills period anyway. The only saving grace is that at my current under $20 and autopay it's not quite so bad. So for me that's kinda my price point. After that it starts cutting into my programming choices. And that ain't good.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Well it is simple. As you state, you missed the cutoff by 3 days and did not get the 6.95 rate. What is complicated about that?
> 
> TiVoPony can not say who will get the 6.95 exception on transitions since things like when the 1 year expired and so forth occurred. What is complicated about the fact you have to call and find out from a CSR where your transition sub falls?
> 
> You called back and said you wanted to cancel the TiVo rather than end up on the 9.95 contract and they retained you at 6.95 month to month. Good for you and again not complicated.


I can't think of a good analogy so here's a bad one.

It would be like you tend to carry a high balance on your credit card and overnight without notice your credit card issuer decides to change your terms without notice and you can choose to either opt out and keep paying under the old terms but lose the use of your card with no time to apply for a new one and balance transfer or keep the card under the new terms. Perhaps not so much complicated as unfair to an existing customer.

Oh wait! That can't happen!! The credit card company has to give you advanced notice (even if you fail to read the fine print). That's the point! Little or no notice to existing customers so no opportunity to make choices within a reasonable amount of time. And no one size fits all to deal with the transition and possible case by case exceptions. I think there lies the confusion.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

hddude55 said:


> I still have a couple months left on the one year "free" plan and was told by a CSR that when my free period expires there is no chance I can get the $6.95 plan. I called a couple months ago to see about the $6.95 plan since I mistakenly thought my free plan was about done. When I discovered it still had a few months I asked if I could go ahead and sign up for the $6.95 plan to take effect as soon as the free period ended but was told that could not be done. Swell, now I can pay an extra $3 bucks a month.


Wow, it sounds like you had foresight, and acted early to do whatever you could to get in on the $6.95 deal, and still they wouldn't let you do it? That sounds frustrating.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

dbows said:


> Why are longtime (6+ years) lifetime owners of Tivo from DirectTv not considered existing customers???? I have a DirecTv Tivo with LifeTime and I just bought an HD Tivo which I have hooked to Comcast but I cannot get the MSD/Lifetime because one is with DirecTV.


Okay, this is a serious question about the "bigger picture" which the quoted post raises: *Why is lifetime only for existing customers?*

A serious answer could be along the lines of: _because otherwise Tivo would lose significant revenue under the following scenario(s) ..._

An answer that's probably closer to the truth would be: _because the marketing people who thought this one up suffer from cognitive impairment which will eventually progress to frontotemporal dementia._

Really, I can't think of a good business reason *why* TiVo would want to introduce a complication like this. Can anyone?


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Maybe because existing customers are already eligible for MSD, so it's already accepted they're the ones who will get a good deal on their next TiVo. And the reason they should get a good deal is because it seems silly to pay 2 times the price for 2 sets of guide data to the same house.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

Tivo was offering to transfer Lifetime for $199 from DiercTivos to Series3's about a year ago (in December, but then again earlier this year, too, I believe). Maybe you have already tried Customer Service regarding this matter, but if you haven't it may be worth a call.



dbows said:


> Why are longtime (6+ years) lifetime owners of Tivo from DirectTv not considered existing customers???? I have a DirecTv Tivo with LifeTime and I just bought an HD Tivo which I have hooked to Comcast but I cannot get the MSD/Lifetime because one is with DirecTV.
> 
> DirecTv help put Tivo on the map and they have left us people who did that out to dry.
> 
> Really disappointing.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

"February 01, 2007
Series3 Lifetime Service Transfers over? Maybe not.

For the last few months, TiVo has allowed owners of the new Series3 TiVo to transfer lifetime service from another TiVo to a Series3 for $199. Under the deal, TiVo will transfer lifetime service from any TiVo (standalone or DIRECTV DVR with TiVo) and they'll give you a year of service on the box you're transfering from (if it's a standalone). "

http://www.wkblog.com/2007/02/


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## hddude55 (Jan 5, 2007)

timckelley said:


> Wow, it sounds like you had foresight, and acted early to do whatever you could to get in on the $6.95 deal, and still they wouldn't let you do it? That sounds frustrating.


 I don't know that it was really foresight. As I said, I had thought I was about to the end of my "free" year or else I wouldn't have called TiVo, but since I had them on the phone I'd go ahead and make arrangements for when the free period ended, whenever that was.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> Your right, I believe at one point TiVo had the lowest churn rate amongs any subscription base service.


It's a lot easier to have low churn when you don't have any natural attrition yet because all of your subscribers are relatively recent ones. The longer Tivo stays in business the harder it will be to keep the churn low. Not sure the increase in churn is directly tied to bad policies or support.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> There's an extremely important reason to treat existing customers well: *SAC aka Subscriber Acquisition Cost.*


That only applies if you're actually going to lose a substantial number of customers due to a specific action. The things you're complaining about are insignificant in that regard, so there is no significant impact on SAC.



Phantom Gremlin said:


> Unhappy customers stop paying. They don't evangelize. They actively badmouth your company. Etc.


However, generally, it is only a fringe minority doing so when the issues are so inconsequential. They're viewed as pariahs rather than evangelists anyway.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Loyalty is bilateral and reciprocal. Being treated "fairly" is one of the underpinnings of modern social behavior. We may have evolved this way.


Fairness is preserved by each person getting what they were explicitly promised, combined with the recognition that customer acquisition takes priority in any consumer-facing business, in a mass-market economy where customers behave as they do in our society.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

TiVoPony said:


> Guys,
> 
> We appreciate the feedback on the new pricing promotion, we're glad to hear feedback that the options seem simpler to all of you. That was the goal.
> 
> There are a couple of corner cases I said I'd look into...


Pony, any follow-up on whether or not we *must* select Lifetime option at time of new activation or if new activations between 11/08/07 and 2/02/08 can move from monthly and/or annual plans to Lifetime if the move is requested on or before Feb. 2, 2008?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

restart88 said:


> . Perhaps not so much complicated as unfair to an existing customer.


this I can agree with. I am surprised TiVo did not announce a 30 days until kind of thing to avoid all the fringe cases. Along with, If you have a free 1 year deal that is not done, you can cancel the sub and sign up for a new one in the 30 days window or better yet we will let you do 3 yr 6.95 for 30 days past when those end.

My guess is cynically, that TiVo felt they would end up with a lot less 6.95 subs if they just did the change and made the hard core call in to get their due.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Has there been any determination yet about whether these LT subs are *Qualifing Subscriptions*?


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

bicker said:


> That only applies if you're actually going to lose a substantial number of customers due to a specific action. The things you're complaining about are insignificant in that regard, so there is no significant impact on SAC.
> 
> However, generally, it is only a fringe minority doing so when the issues are so inconsequential. They're viewed as pariahs rather than evangelists anyway.


It's fascinating to hear all these great comments from you, such as "insignificant", "fringe minority", "inconsequential", and "pariahs".

In the meantime, confusion reigns. TiVo isn't growing, and is losing money by the truckload. E.g.: $ 76m loss in '04, $37m loss in '05, $52m loss in '06.

So, yeah, lets demonize the "insignificant pariahs". Because the people running TiVo *obviously* know what they're doing.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TiVo is losing money because there aren't enough people willing to pay enough for what they're offering. It's a product without sufficient demand to sustain its cost.

The people running TiVo are almost surely going to know what they're doing better than some random, quasi-anonymous poster on the Internet (like you). Note that the industry analysts don't suggest your approaches. They'd condemn them as "nails in the coffin".

Remember, just because you want something, doesn't mean there is a profitable business case for it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> In the meantime, confusion reigns. TiVo isn't growing, and is losing money by the truckload. E.g.: $ 76m loss in '04, $37m loss in '05, $52m loss in '06.


well this is not complicated either. 
I tell people there is a monthly fee - many go, nah -no thanks then. It is simply they do not want to pay a monthly fee.

Now for those that understand TiVo and the value they get for the sub fee -- someone asked me yesterday though how they could upgrade from a single tuner. I told them they can get a DT for real cheap or an HD for 250 or so. Then they can either transfer the sub they have now or pay 9.95, or prepay 1,2 or 3 years for a discount,if they want to keep the single tuner subbed.

simple conversation and they are shopping around for price on the two models now.


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## HamptonWalsh (Aug 22, 2007)

dwit said:


> You said it the way I really wanted to. There's got to be thousands in that boat.
> 
> I think the S2DT was the #1 sales rank for a while at Amazon. They came bundled with a Gift Certificate and the certificates were back ordered for a while.


I guess it's comforting to know that there are others in the same boat.

I purchased a new Tivo from Amazon two weeks ago to replace an ailing but not yet dead single-tuner Humax model I've had for two years. The new box arrived right away, but the gift card took an extra week. As soon as it got here, I went to my computer to activate service and found that the monthly charge was no longer $6.95/month but now $99/year (or a variety of other prices). It's not a huge increase in price per month, but it is different than the data I had in my head when I made the decision to order this thing.

Over the phone with a supervisor, the best option I was given was to activate the new one using the $99 gift card, call back in a week, cancel the service, have the $99 credited back to my credit card, and then switch the serial number on my current $6.95/mo second Tivo to the new one.

The weird thing is, I'll still have two Tivos (having 3 would have been nice) and the upgrade from a single-tuner to dual-tuner will end up costing me just $1 (plus lots of time listening to Tivo's really bad hold music). The Humax will go in the attic with my old VCRs and boomboxes.

I'm really surprised Tivo decided to hold the line so firmly with people whose boxes were ordered and in the mail at the time of the price change. This was my first contact with their customer service in 5+ years as a customer, and it's thoroughly discouraging.


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## Cigar Dan (Dec 18, 2001)

HDTiVo said:


> Sure you can. Also, your DT should have been eligible for $12.95 3yr contract.
> 
> In any event, you can cancel the service on the DT (you have no commitment anymore) and sub the DT onto the TiVo HD's 3yr plan. Then buy Lifetime on the TiVo HD.


Can this be done? Here's my situation--I have 3 lifetime boxes (one S1, and two S2s), and 3 MSD boxes. One of the MSD is a recently purchased (but over 30 days) S3 that is on a 3 year agreement. I also have one of the Amazon S2DT boxes (still unactivated) that came with the $100 gift card.

Can I switch the S2DT onto the S3's 3-year agreement and then turn around and buy lifetime for the S3? That would be perfect for me.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Cigar Dan said:


> Can I switch the S2DT onto the S3's 3-year agreement and then turn around and buy lifetime for the S3?


yes


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

I just added my fifth Tivo two days ago. I am not at all upset to by paying $9.95 monthly rather than $6.95 for a three year commitment. I think I am like most people. It is $3.00 more per month for no commitment- a fair trade in my eyes. Or, I can opt for lifetime for a few bucks more than a three year commitment (Of course paid up front). I don't get the issue.


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## szatkoff (Jan 31, 2002)

I had ordered my Series 2 DT from amazon with the $100 gift card and was waiting to wire my 2nd floor with cat 5 before activating the service on the unit. Well since Tivo raised their price on the MSD, I promptly returned the unit. Even with the $100 of service, it just wasn't worth it to keeping the unit.


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## HamptonWalsh (Aug 22, 2007)

szatkoff said:


> I had ordered my Series 2 DT from amazon with the $100 gift card and was waiting to wire my 2nd floor with cat 5 before activating the service on the unit. Well since Tivo raised their price on the MSD, I promptly returned the unit. Even with the $100 of service, it just wasn't worth it to keeping the unit.


I agree with you and am only keeping the Tivo I got from Amazon because it's an upgrade on my second box for just a dollar (I paid $100, Tivo's refunding my credit card $99). If I didn't already have the two boxes, I probably would start considering other DVR options.

I can't believe I'm even thinking that way, but I'm still so steamed at Tivo's inflexibility on what TivoPony refered to earlier in this thread as "corner cases." Apparently customer service cannot help.


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## HamptonWalsh (Aug 22, 2007)

larrs said:


> I just added my fifth Tivo two days ago. I am not at all upset to by paying $9.95 monthly rather than $6.95 for a three year commitment. I think I am like most people. It is $3.00 more per month for no commitment- a fair trade in my eyes. Or, I can opt for lifetime for a few bucks more than a three year commitment (Of course paid up front). I don't get the issue.


Sorry to post about this a third time. This is the last, I promise. A 3-year commitment @ $6.95/mo is $250.20. Lifetime on an additional box is now $399. That's $148.80, which doesn't seem like a few bucks more to me, especially paid up front.

I agree, though, that the trade-off on not being tied in for 3 years is worth something, and I'm not complaining about the price changes themselves, just how the transition is being handled for those of us who bought their 2nd or 3rd Tivos before the monthly plans changed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HamptonWalsh said:


> Sorry to post about this a third time. This is the last, I promise. A 3-year commitment @ $6.95/mo is $250.20.


they should have let you have the 6.95 for 3 year deal.

for me,
I just made the 6.95 for 3 year deal on a S2 DT and since 250.20/9.95 = 25 months it now feels like a 3rd year free to me since after 3 years I am fairly positive I will no longer want to use a series 2 model and the Tivo HD will be the low end model in Tivo incs' lineup.

I owuld much rather pay 6.95 a month even for a TiVo HD than 399$ for lifetime. TiVo needs to make a profit to stay in business so I have no problem that they need to change pricing to achieve that, I just think they should have given a 30 day notice of the change and then they could hold firm on corner/fringe cases.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

HamptonWalsh said:


> Sorry to post about this a third time. This is the last, I promise. A 3-year commitment @ $6.95/mo is $250.20. Lifetime on an additional box is now $399. That's $148.80, which doesn't seem like a few bucks more to me, especially paid up front.


Um- arent you comparing apples to oranges. $148 more but you have lifetime. Isn't 3 years now $297 ($99 per year)? That would be $50 more.

BTW: I am still using my Panasonic Show Stopper (ReplayTV) now 6 years later. I am glad I opted for the lifetime service when I originally bought it.

BOb


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## AStar617 (Feb 13, 2003)

Genuinely interested in taking advantage of this to get a lifetime S3 (or at least S2DT) to go alongside my lifetime S2. Never could bring myself to transfer service off the S2 for no good reason, but getting an additional is much more attractive.

Curious about the future of cable TV hardware though. Lots of people are worried that the hardware is going to be obsolete once analog signals end. This may be a stupid question, but doesn't that only matter if you are using the built-in tuner and not the AV inputs w/IR blasters to the cable box or whatever? If you aren't concerned with HD quality or anything, where is the real pitfall? 

Excuse my leaps of logic in advance since it's 2am


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Has there been any determination yet about whether these LT subs are *Qualifing Subscriptions*?


Apparently not.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

AStar617 said:


> Genuinely interested in taking advantage of this to get a lifetime S3 (or at least S2DT) to go alongside my lifetime S2. Never could bring myself to transfer service off the S2 for no good reason, but getting an additional is much more attractive.


The only advantage would be no long term payments, and if you have other DVRs, the new Lifetime model would provide qualifying subscription for MSD (to my understanding)


> Curious about the future of cable TV hardware though. Lots of people are worried that the hardware is going to be obsolete once analog signals end. This may be a stupid question, but doesn't that only matter if you are using the built-in tuner and not the AV inputs w/IR blasters to the cable box or whatever? If you aren't concerned with HD quality or anything, where is the real pitfall?


Yes. If you are only using the built in analog tuners, you may be worried in the future when your respective analog service gets turned off. If you are using a tuner that outputs SD A/V (or can upgrade to one), you are golden.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

Just so I understand this.


If I add another S3 or a HD to the existing S3 I have(which has a 3-yr prepay on it) I can get the lifetime for the new unit at $399 and either pay the new MSD of $9.95(the old being $6.95) or go with another 3-yr prepay of $299(which is now about $50 more than the old MSD of $6.95 per month).


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## montag (Mar 10, 2001)

Please be kind.....

I haven't dealt with non Directv tivo's in years so I've got what I'm sure is a stupid question. 

My sister has an original Series 1 TiVo and is looking to replace it with a Series 2. She has lifetime on the S1. Can she transfer that to a S2 or is she S.O.L.?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

montag said:


> Please be kind.....
> 
> I haven't dealt with non Directv tivo's in years so I've got what I'm sure is a stupid question.
> 
> My sister has an original Series 1 TiVo and is looking to replace it with a Series 2. She has lifetime on the S1. Can she transfer that to a S2 or is she S.O.L.?


If she bought the lifetime service before January 21, 2000 she's eligible for a one-time transfer at no charge to another TiVo. I'd seriously consider at least a Series 2 DT or either of the HD units if you can go this route.

Otherwise the only offers at the moment:

A transfer of lifetime service to a TiVo HD unit for $199 if you bought it between 10/11/2007 and 11/8/2007.

Purchase new lifetime service for a TiVo for $399 if you currently have a MSD-qualifying receiver already.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Or in my case, they were nice enough to transfer my lifetime from my S1 (which I had only recently lifetimed) for free, to a TiVo HD because my S1 had a bad motherboard on it. But they made it clear that it was a one time exception they were doing for me. I was startled by this huge favor they did, but did not want to question it.  I'm still really grateful for what they did.


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## tomm1079 (May 10, 2005)

damn last night i just convinced myself i was sick of comcast and decided i was going to get the TIVO HD. Now I am not so sure anymore. I was planning on only having to pay the 6.95 a month now that it increases to 9.95 a month it makes the break even point further out. Maybe ill just switch out the TSN and deactivate a unit. Yeah it sucks..but it will then keep my pricing the same....


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## jfpga (Sep 28, 2003)

Kinda of off topic, but I have an Directv HDTivo which I have had since they came out years ago, purchased for somewhere around $900 to $1000. Anything still available for me to transfer that lifetime to a new Series 3 or HDTivo?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Sorry, no.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

tomm1079 said:


> damn last night i just convinced myself i was sick of comcast and decided i was going to get the TIVO HD. Now I am not so sure anymore. I was planning on only having to pay the 6.95 a month now that it increases to 9.95 a month it makes the break even point further out. Maybe ill just switch out the TSN and deactivate a unit. Yeah it sucks..but it will then keep my pricing the same....


Comcast just went through another round of price increases this month, the second time this year. DVR is now $14/month in my area.


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## Rucker (Sep 21, 2006)

Rucker said:


> I did the lifetime transfer to an S3 a year ago, and got the 1yr "free" prepaid on my S1. I called Nov 1 to cancel the S1 and a retention rep pitched a deal including a discounted THD and $6.95mtm.


Tivo refuses to honor the offer they made to me. Not only did I receive this offer from one rep, but I called back to someone else who confirmed the offer. I was given 48 hrs to accept the deal, which I did, yet now after I receive the box, they won't honor the deal. The floor supervisor said that the two reps should have only offered me the then current rate, but he went on to say that it didn't matter if they had offered that, they wouldn't honor it anyway. WTF?

I've had Tivo for about 7 years, and have always thought Tivo customer service was, if not exactly on top of things, at least honorable. Apparently not. Bait and switch is par for the course.

All I could get is the name of another floor supervisor which I suppose I'll call tomorrow. Maybe this person (unlike the last) will understand that they need to make sure their reps aren't making ANY time-limited pricing deals.

I hope TiVoPony reads this message. If this were my company, I would be ashamed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Rucker said:


> Tivo refuses to honor the offer they made to me. Not only did I receive this offer from one rep, but I called back to someone else who confirmed the offer. I was given 48 hrs to accept the deal, which I did, yet now after I receive the box, they won't honor the deal. The floor supervisor said that the two reps should have only offered me the then current rate, but he went on to say that it didn't matter if they had offered that, they wouldn't honor it anyway. WTF?.


wow, was it in the notes on you account?!
That does indeed sound very dishonorable to me to back out after you received the box and I assume paid for it as part of the deal


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## Rucker (Sep 21, 2006)

I assume it was in the notes. The original guy gave me a ref # and the 2nd person I talked to (when I accepted the offer) confirmed the deal. I could almost believe the first two people were mistaken about what rate they could offer. But when the supervisor tells me they should have offered me the then-current rate... then goes on to say they wouldn't have honored that anyway... and won't agree that they shouldn't make offers to customers that they don't intend to honor... well that's just plain absurd and I wonder if he has a clue. As I write this, I wonder if anyone will believe it. I can hardly believe it myself.

Perhaps this last time I was speaking to a couple of reps who didn't have the ability to do anything and were more interested in getting me off the phone than providing good customer service. Surely this can't actually be Tivo's policy. Can it?


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

So you even got a case # of the deal they made? You did give the case to the guy who refused to honor the deal right? When offered to transfer the lifetime from my S1 to a HD TiVo, I was so astonished by this generosity that I made sure to get a case #, thinking that would lock in the deal. In my case, it did, because when I called back after buying my new TiVo, and quoted the case #, they honored it. I would surely think that if you quoted your case #, which contains notes of the deal offered, that they would honor it.


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## Rucker (Sep 21, 2006)

On the first call, I just wanted to cancel my S1 service. The rep explained that if I were to cancel and add a MSD at a later time, I would get the current rate at that time, which would be higher than the offered rate of $6.95 mtm. He explained that the current mtm MSD rate was higher than the rate being offered. The rate is what sold me on the deal. I told him that I'd speak with my wife and call back. He said I would have to call back within 48hrs to get the deal, and gave me a reference number. (I have given the reference number to each rep I've talked with since.) After convincing the wife that instead of cancelling the S1, we should accept the offer, I called back (~36hrs later) and spoke with another rep who confirmed the terms of the deal (discounted TivoHD, $6.95mtm). She said I would have to call back after receiving the Tivo to get the service set up.

Amusingly, when I received the Tivo there was a sticker on the box and a flyer inside saying that service was already activated, but of course it wasn't. I call Tivo again, wait ~37 minutes, speak with someone who says they can't help me, get put on hold for another ~40 minutes, and speak with someone who didn't seem to know what he was doing. He said he had to transfer service from the S1, and that I'd have to call back after it ran out to get the offered rate. I thought that was odd, asked him when the service would run out, and he told me "about a month". Everything was non-committal from him. The first rep told me it ran out on the 15th or 16th (I don't have my notes with me currently), so I figured this 3rd rep was clueless. I didn't want to wait another 40 minutes to talk to someone else, so I gave up and decided to call again when the service ran out like he suggested. After the call I went to the website and confirmed there was less than a week remaining. I think he was probably incompetent, but in retrospect, I have to wonder if he was trying to get me past the 30 day return period.

So I call back last night, and speak to a person who says more or less "too bad". I admit I got a bit upset and asked why I should believe him and not the person that offered the deal or the person that accepted the deal. Eventually I got him to put me through to the floor supervisor who said they would not honor the $6.95 rate, and that reps are only allowed to offer the current rate. I then ask him if I had been offered the then-current rate, if they would have honored that, and he said no. I pointed out (twice) that they shouldn't offer rates they don't intend to honor, but he would only say that he'd make sure his reps knew what the current rate is (which doesn't address my point at all.) He would only give me the name of another floor supervisor which I've yet to contact. Based on that conversation, and that this person has the same title, I'm fairly certain this person won't be able to address anything either.

I kept notes with each call, and I'm 100% sure I didn't misunderstand the offer. The original rep went to great lengths to explain how good the deal was, I repeated the deal back to him, and I wrote it in my notes. Additionally, I called back and spoke with another rep who confirmed the terms of the deal. After receiving the Tivo, I get another story, and find out that I can't get the offered rate, that I can't get the standard rate at the time I accepted the offer, and that I can only get a new higher rate. If that isn't bait and switch, I don't know what is. I can't believe Tivo would treat any customer like this. To think about how long I've had Tivo, that I've given 4 Tivos as gifts, and have encouraged many people to get Tivo... well that just makes me mad. I'm a sucker.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Rucker said:


> ...I pointed out (twice) that they shouldn't offer rates they don't intend to honor, but he would only say that he'd make sure his reps knew what the current rate is (which doesn't address my point at all.) He would only give me the name of another floor supervisor which I've yet to contact. Based on that conversation, and that this person has the same title, I'm fairly certain this person won't be able to address anything either.


I'm not that certain the last person can't help. Don't give up the fight!

From what I can gather, TiVo splits its support responsibilities among a 3rd party outfit, and then its own people. The front-line reps are 3rd party and have no authority to fulfill what you were promised. It sounds like the floor supervisor was the direct supervisor of the front-line person, and thus would be 3rd party and have no authority either. You need to figure out how to get to the TiVo layer, and this new name may be in the TiVo layer.

Another way to get into the TiVo layer would probably be just to ask to speak to retention folks (ask cancel your service?). As your original call shows, those people are TiVo people authorized to make deals. My guess is that you should have been directed to them on your later calls after getting through the front line layer.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

I think your best bet is to get TiVoPony involved. You could PM him a link to this thread, and maybe he can do something.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

c3 said:


> Comcast just went through another round of price increases this month, the second time this year. DVR is now $14/month in my area.


Price increases here in Houston too. Except it's $17. :down:

It became a no-brainer to get a 2nd S3.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

My understanding is that you're grandfathered in until your current service commitment expires, if you're under commitment. Otherwise, you're grandfathered in until they decide to change that.


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## naren (Nov 3, 2006)

TiVoPony said:


> For the case where a customer took the lifetime transfer special offer and received 12 mo of free service on their old box, I have asked what will happen when that box finishes the 12 months. The current answer is that it would go to $9.95/mo, the MSD rate at the time. The team is still looking at whether there are exceptions to this or not, I'll pass along anything new that I learn.
> 
> Pony


What is the latest view on pricing for such boxes that are coming off their "1-yr free after lifetime transfer to another"?

I had my S2's lifetime transferred to an S3 last November. My old S2 just came off its 1-yr free, and I see a *$12.95* monthly charge on my account for it. Is that what's expected? (it's higher than either of the two alternatives being debated in this context!)

Just looking to find out what I should expect it to be before I call customer service...

Thanks,
- Narendran


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

naren said:


> What is the latest view on pricing for such boxes that are coming off their "1-yr free after lifetime transfer to another"?
> 
> I had my S2's lifetime transferred to an S3 last November. My old S2 just came off its 1-yr free, and I see a *$12.95* monthly charge on my account for it. Is that what's expected? (it's higher than either of the two alternatives being debated in this context!)
> 
> ...


They must not be giving you credit for your MSD status. I'd immediately call and remind them you have a qualifying unit, and that $12.95 needs to be at least as low as $9.95. I don't know if you'll be able to talk them down to $6.95 or not (based on the price change happening while your were in your free period).

If you want to be ambitious and really try for the $6.95 deal, based on what other people have saying, maybe the best bet is to say you want to cancel, and then get transferred to retention, as maybe they have more power to offer you the $6.95 deal than anybody else does. On the other hand, this could backfire, because maybe they'll just let you cancel, and it doesn't sound like you want that.

But you should have no problem getting the $9.95 price as that's the current pricing.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

naren said:


> I had my S2's lifetime transferred to an S3 last November. My old S2 just came off its 1-yr free, and I see a *$12.95* monthly charge on my account for it. Is that what's expected?


Yes, that's consistent with the current pricing policy. You're charged for the current monthly rate. If you want the MSD rate, you have to cancel and re-subscribe.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

timckelley said:


> They must not be giving you credit for your MSD status.


MSD rate applies only at the time of activation, not continuing from a non-MSD plan.


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

TiVoPony said:


> There are a couple of corner cases I said I'd look into, specifically whether the MSD of $6.95 would be available for customers who have a box on a '12 month free' service plan (as a result of a previous lifetime transfer), and for customers who just purchased their additional box just prior to the MSD change.
> 
> While our policy is that the MSD price is now $9.95, in these two specific cases it may be possible to request an exception for the $6.95 rate. Every customers' case is unique...if you have had that extra DVR in the closet for months and months this wouldn't apply to you. Or if your 'free service' expired some time ago. But for people in this situation for whom there is an obvious overlap with the two MSD plans, a call to our customer support team may help.
> 
> ...


Post #306 of this thread
My 1 year free is due to come off the free year in a few weeks. I'm not counting on the $6.95 rate- but would try if I really wanted a 3rd tivo.


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## kpdillon (Nov 29, 2007)

What is to stop my friend from buying me two Tivo's with lifetime for my house with this offer? Anything or can he pay $1400 and give me to lifetime HD units?

http://www3.tivo.com/tivo-promo/show.do?pg=/buytivo/hdgift.html

Second question: Can he spend even more money and buy me a Series 3 with lifetime? How about two of them?  I have such a nice friend.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

kpdillon said:


> What is to stop my friend from buying me two Tivo's with lifetime for my house with this offer? Anything or can he pay $1400 and give me to lifetime HD units?
> 
> http://www3.tivo.com/tivo-promo/show.do?pg=/buytivo/hdgift.html
> 
> Second question: Can he spend even more money and buy me a Series 3 with lifetime? How about two of them?  I have such a nice friend.


Rogers mentioned yesterday that Lifetime Gift was coming, so this is it.

Two TiVoes, no problem!

If you want S3s, your friend could do it the old way of buying it himself and then transfer it to you.

We are pretty close to seeing Lifetime return at $399 or less for all comers. Here you get a free adapter.

You might want to wait a few days to see if this gets extended to the S3 and/or the DT. The offer refers to a *Product Lifetime Service Gift Card* which does not yet appear for purchase anywhere else I can find. Perhaps they will add that to the Gift Card offerings, etc.


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## kpdillon (Nov 29, 2007)

How about two lifetimes in the same household? Any issue with that?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

kpdillon said:


> How about two lifetimes in the same household? Any issue with that?


Sure, why not ten! Live it up.


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## Emacee (Dec 15, 2000)

This thread has gotten pretty long and I may have missed something...

I have a Series 3 about one year old. I have the pre-paid three year plan. I would have gone for the Lifetime Plan had it been available.

What you appear to be saying is existing customers are out in the cold here. Those of us who bought a Tivo when the "lifetime window" was closed (available before, available now but not available then) are stuck with the plans we have.

The Lifetime Plan is $100 more than the three year plan. I'd be pleased to give you all an extra $100 for Christmas to upgrade to the Lifetime Plan. Is that an option?

Sorry but this new pricing does not do much to build my loyalty to TiVo. It seems short-sighted for companies to go after new customers as they take current customers for granted. It costs 20 times more to get a new customer than to keep a current one. Keep in mind that I can get a DVR from Verizon with additional capabilities and for less money while Tivo acts like it doesn't care about those of us who have been supporting it all along.



TiVoPony said:


> Hey all,
> 
> We wanted to give everyone a heads up on special prices for the TiVo Service, available now thru February 2nd, for new TiVo DVR purchases. I know some information was leaked early, that was unfortunate...we hate leaks. But now we can share more details.
> 
> ...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Emacee said:


> This thread has gotten pretty long and I may have missed something...
> 
> I have a Series 3 about one year old. I have the pre-paid three year plan. I would have gone for the Lifetime Plan had it been available.
> 
> What you appear to be saying is existing customers are out in the cold here.


You appear to be quite up to date.

Prices change. You bought something a year ago. You don't expect TiVo to give you a $200 rebate on your prior S3 purchase now that they have it for current purchases?

The longer you are into the plan, the less incentive for TiVo to allow you to opt out. You are a year in so I don't think it would make sense for TiVo to take the $100. Maybe $150 or $200. Call and make a fair offer to a supervisor. It can't hurt to try.


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## wineguru (Nov 30, 2007)

Hi all, I have a DirectTv Tivo Lifetime for a series 1 (Sony SAT60). I'm about to switch over to Verizon FIOS and I'm looking at the new $299 Tivo HD. I now see that Tivo is offering a lifetime for $699 with recv'r. Does this apply to me? Can I transfer my Lifetime? Do I have to deal directly with DirectTV or can I do it thru Tivo? Thanks. Tony


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I got an email today about lifetime service being available with the TiVo HD.

Does that go for units sold at retail or just ones bought from tivo.com?

I'm thinking of trying to convince my parents to replace one of their S2's. Both of their current S2's have lifetime If they wanted to pay monthly on the HD model would they qualify for discounted multi-service discount?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

wineguru said:


> Hi all, I have a DirectTv Tivo Lifetime for a series 1 (Sony SAT60). I'm about to switch over to Verizon FIOS and I'm looking at the new $299 Tivo HD. I now see that Tivo is offering a lifetime for $699 with recv'r. Does this apply to me? Can I transfer my Lifetime? Do I have to deal directly with DirectTV or can I do it thru Tivo? Thanks. Tony


The SAT-T60 is a DirecTV receiver; you're not a TiVo customer. To buy the $399 lifetime service for a receiver, you have to already be a TiVo customer with an active receiver on your account.

So technically you need to buy a TiVo receiver, pay for service, then you can buy another TiVo receiver and buy lifetime service for it. Alternately, you could find a friend who has a TiVo account already and buy a receiver and have them activate it on their account and purchase lifetime service for it at the same time. Then they can transfer the TiVo receiver to you and you can set up your own account with that receiver which will have lifetime service on it.

At the moment there's no current way for a new customer to buy their first receiver and buy lifetime service for it. It's only available to existing customers.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

cwoody222 said:


> I got an email today about lifetime service being available with the TiVo HD.
> 
> Does that go for units sold at retail or just ones bought from tivo.com?
> 
> I'm thinking of trying to convince my parents to replace one of their S2's. Both of their current S2's have lifetime If they wanted to pay monthly on the HD model would they qualify for discounted multi-service discount?


The TiVoHD model or the Series3 model would qualify for a multi-service-discount rate when added to your parents account; that currently is $9.95/month or $99 for 1 year, prepaid.


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

dswallow said:


> At the moment there's no current way for a new customer to buy their first receiver and buy lifetime service for it. It's only available to existing customers.


It's not easy becoming a new customer of Tivo.

I tried to buy a year service as a gift & had to buy a $100 GC instead. 
I was trying to give tivo $129 but they'd only take $100.


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## widenerb (Feb 20, 2007)

As far as I'm concerned, Tivo is taking advantage of the very customers who have been their biggest supporters since the beginning: Liftime subscribtion owners. I own 2 lifetimes, purchased prior to the introduction of the HD Tivo, or the dual tuner versions. By not allowing me to transfer at least one of the lifetime subsriptions to a new box (they will if I pay $200, which is almost the original cost) they are telling me that they don't care about me as a customer, they already have all the subscription fees they are likely to get from me. Well, they are right; I won't be spending my money for an HD Tivo and then have to pay again for a subscrption. If I am going to pay for HD I might as well go with the cable company, at least I don't need to buy the hardware, and the way TIVO is constantly raising prices, it won't be long before the monthly fee is the same as the cable company's.

Too bad, I have been a big TIVO booster for years, but I think I've had it.


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## wineguru (Nov 30, 2007)

Yes, I agree. I've been with Tivo since day one. One of the very first subscribers. The $299 I paid is not the issue it's just that I would like to have some options for being a loyal customer, even if it is now DirectTV. As I move to Verizon FIOS I would love to have the Tivo interface but I will not bend to extortion that the $699 is. I will live with the Verizon DVR and save my money if I have too.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

wineguru said:


> Yes, I agree. I've been with Tivo since day one. One of the very first subscribers. The $299 I paid is not the issue it's just that I would like to have some options for being a loyal customer, even if it is now DirectTV. As I move to Verizon FIOS I would love to have the Tivo interface but I will not bend to extortion that the $699 is. I will live with the Verizon DVR and save my money if I have too.


You've been a loyal customer of DirecTV; yet you're trying to blame TiVo for not rewarding you for that loyalty. That's kinda messed up.

DirecTV is actually rewarding your loyalty to them by generally offering free HR-20/HR-21 receivers and continuing to honor your lifetime DVR purchase by not charging the monthly DVR fees.

There was one offer that allowed DirecTV lifetime subscribers to "transfer" their lifetime service (actually nothing was transferred -- you still retained "lifetime" at DirecTV). That was a Series3-only offer back at the end of 2006/beginning of 2007. It required a $199 payment. And back then the Series3 was generally at best a $700 purchase. So for a total of $899 you could've done it almost a year ago.

Nowadays you can get a TiVoHD unit for about $250 and buy lifetime for it for $399... about $648... granted, you have to go through some twists and turns via a friend to get the lifetime service on your first TiVo receiver, but it's possible, if just a little awkward.

Nobody's screwing you except yourself in sticking with a Verizon DVR.


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## hansende (Dec 21, 2003)

TivoPony- I read your words 1 year ago and bought a lifetime with the understanding that I would qualify for $6.95/month. But I just got billed for $12.95!!! Here is your 
A link.

In Particular

Quote:
* If you take advantage of the 'Transfer Lifetime to Series3' promotion, the old box that used to have Lifetime will be eligible for $6.95/mo MSD (or whatever is equivalent...legalese for lawyers) after the 12 months of comp'd service is over.

__________________

I feel ripped off.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

widenerb said:


> By not allowing me to transfer at least one of the lifetime subsriptions to a new box (they will if I pay $200, which is almost the original cost) they are telling me that they don't care about me as a customer


That's silly. This is business we're talking about; it is nothing personal. Don't take it personally.

Figure it this way: You have lifetime service. TiVo is happy to provide you service under that original agreement. They're doing their part. You simply want more than you were promised.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

hansende said:


> TivoPony- I read your words 1 year ago and bought a lifetime with the understanding that I would qualify for $6.95/month. But I just got billed for $12.95!!! Here is your
> A link.
> 
> In Particular
> ...


Call them up and get MSD. Note the terms of MSD, as well as the price (now $9.95), have changed. Officially you now have to sign up for at least a one year contract to get MSD, though I think TiVo would waive that if you're a long-time customer. I wouldn't have wanted TiVo to automatically sign me up for a 1 year contract!


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Call them up and get MSD. Note the terms of MSD, as well as the price (now $9.95), have changed. Officially you now have to sign up for at least a one year contract to get MSD, though I think TiVo would waive that if you're a long-time customer. I wouldn't have wanted TiVo to automatically sign me up for a 1 year contract!


TiVo should stop playing this game. Its an invitation to raise churn to the levels you fear it will reach.

TiVo needs to reform how they treat used boxes so there is strong incentive to remain subscribed, and better yet, to re-sub an old unused box.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

hansende said:


> TivoPony- I read your words 1 year ago and bought a lifetime with the understanding that I would qualify for $6.95/month. But I just got billed for $12.95!!! Here is your
> A link.
> 
> In Particular
> ...


MSDs terms changed in July, so as you have to activate a at MSD to get MSD; boxes won't automatically go to to MSD.

A prepaid monthly box (which that free year technically is) will go to the going monthly rate, which would be 12.95, and not automatically get MSD. You have to cancel the current contract on it and re-activate it for the current MSD.
There is an off-chance you could get it down to $6.95.


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## HamptonWalsh (Aug 22, 2007)

Please do let us know if you get it down to $6.95/mo. I found both "managers" I spoke with completely inflexible about grandfathering in the box I had purchased before the price increase but could not activate due to the service gift card being on back order.


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## nocturne1 (Aug 17, 2004)

HamptonWalsh said:


> Please do let us know if you get it down to $6.95/mo. I found both "managers" I spoke with completely inflexible about grandfathering in the box I had purchased before the price increase but could not activate due to the service gift card being on back order.


Might want to talk to the customer retention group. They seem to have the most power to do things against the "normal" system.


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## letsroll (Dec 1, 2007)

I'm new to tivo and looking to buy it as a gift and am going crazy trying to figure out the best option.

Simple question, if I buy a lifetime subscription for a series 2 as a gift, can the lifetime service ever be transfered to a new box if they upgrade to an HD tivo? I know in the past there was a way to do it for $199, is that still the policy, or is that over, or is it like some promo thing tivo allows sporadically?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

letsroll said:


> I'm new to tivo and looking to buy it as a gift and am going crazy trying to figure out the best option.
> 
> Simple question, if I buy a lifetime subscription for a series 2 as a gift, can the lifetime service ever be transfered to a new box if they upgrade to an HD tivo? I know in the past there was a way to do it for $199, is that still the policy, or is that over, or is it like some promo thing tivo allows sporadically?


I believe the following 5 answers to your questions all are correct :

Yes, No, Maybe, Possibly and "_God knows what they'll do next!_" 

And I don't know how you do it if you are not already a TiVo customer yourself, but if you were you could manage it by buying the S2 w/ LT service yourself and transfering the box to your friend's account.

Welcome to the TiVo*f*usion!


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## dortega (Nov 13, 2007)

I'm a new S3 subscriber (within the 30 day window) with no other boxes, noticed the Lifetime option was available online for $399, called and inquired about upgrading to Lifetime. CSR mentioned I could cancel and signup for the 3 year plan - but inquired about upgrading over the phone. CSR agreed and processed the upgrade for the price difference ($100)!


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

dortega said:


> I'm a new S3 subscriber (within the 30 day window) with no other boxes, noticed the Lifetime option was available online for $399, called and inquired about upgrading to Lifetime. CSR mentioned I could cancel and signup for the 3 year plan - but inquired about upgrading over the phone. CSR agreed and processed the upgrade for the price difference ($100)!


Interesting way around the lifetime only being available to someone with an existing subscribed receiver. I wonder if it'd work even without going through the motions of subscribing to another plan first and then calling within 30 days. Or for that matter if even this method is consistently successful with different CSRs.


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## letsroll (Dec 1, 2007)

> believe the following 5 answers to your questions all are correct :
> 
> Yes, No, Maybe, Possibly and "God knows what they'll do next!"


lol, thanks, that's what I was thinking but thought I must be missing something here. Really wish tivo made the decisions easier....



> And I don't know how you do it if you are not already a TiVo customer yourself


I was going to use ebay for a new box with lifetime, then add another box with lifetime and give them both as a gift.

Didn't really want HD, dual tuner would be perfect, but don't want to waste lifetime and would rather give a gift that never needs a subscription.

Maybe I should just flip a coin


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## letsroll (Dec 1, 2007)

One other question I forgot to ask, if I go the service gift card route and give one year, next xmas can I buy antoher gift card for them. I would assume yes, but the gift card terms are kinda confusing with terms like "new activations only"

from tivo website


> *TiVo Service Gift Cards may be applied only to new activations of any TiVo service only subscriptions available at the time of gift card redemption


What's up with that? If i give one year, they have to start paying next year and I can't give them another year on a gift card next xmas?


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

letsroll said:


> What's up with that? If i give one year, they have to start paying next year and I can't give them another year on a gift card next xmas?


If you want to use another gift card, you have to cancel the current subscription and sign up again. You cannot apply a gift card to an existing subscription.


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## Looper (Jan 10, 2003)

I'm thinking about getting two new HD TiVos. I've been looking through this thread and am a little confused as to what my best option is with the new pricing plans. I used to have a lifetime on an old S2 unit, but transferred that to a friend a while ago when I switched to DTV - hence I'm not currently eligible for the MSD discount (and subsequently the $399 lifetime). Now I'm thinking of switching back to Comcast, but would like a genuine TiVo box.

Questions:

1) If I purchase two new units, can I activate one normally, and then activate the second unit with lifetime? It seems like I should be eligible for MSD after activating the first one. 

1a) If I do this, will my non-lifetime subscription be at the lower MSD rate? Or the full rate?

1b) If I do this, can I go back and convert my first box monthly subscription to another $399 lifetime?

2) If I have two boxes to activate, can I just cut to the chase and have them activate both with lifetime $399? I realize that I'm not initially eligible for MSD, but it seems like I should be able to turn both on at once and qualify. Maybe call TiVo directly?

3) Another option is to have my friend activate them for me, on his MSD-eligible account. Is it easy to transfer the units (with lifetime status) from his TiVo account to mine? Even after a short period of time?

3a) If I buy the units myself, is there any issue with the $200 rebate if the box purchaser (me) is different than the account that the box was activated under (my friend)?

4) In general, are there any issues with buying the TiVo boxes from a retailer as opposed to Tivo.com directly as far as limiting my options for activating the service, rebates, etc.?

Sorry for asking a lot of questions that have probably been answered already, but I have not been able to find definitive answers in here...

Thanks in advance.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

You should be able to accomplish what you want above with the run around methods you describe, but no one has yet confirmed that these new MSD-Lifetime subscriptions are indeed Qualifying subs for purposes of getting additional MSD/LT purchases.

You might via a phone call get a supervisor to give you the two @ $399 directly.


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## MomCatM4 (Oct 16, 2006)

Not only was I charged $12.95 when I already have one other TiVo on MSD, but between that charge showing up on my Visa bill and my receiving it in the mail, another charge was added after the closing date for the next month. I was not happy, to say the least--especially since my understanding was the same as others--once the "free" year was up, the charge would be the current MSD. The first person I talked to couldn't do the stop service/restart service to get the MSD, nor could she do anything about the charges. The second person could take care of the stop/restart, but was pretty adamant there was nothing to be done about the TWO $12.95 charges. That's when I asked to talk to a supervisor. The upshot was a compromise. I am to receive a $9 credit and then I "reupped" for another year at the $99 rate. Since this is on my old Series 2, I'll probably not renew at the end of next year--we'll see. But maybe this will help someone else who gets stuck with that surprise non-MSD rate?

JLB


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## scoombs (Jun 23, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> ..no one has yet confirmed that these new MSD-Lifetime subscriptions are indeed Qualifying subs for purposes of getting additional MSD/LT purchases.


I can confirm that a newly purchased Lifetime subscription (and now the only active unit on the account) is a qualifying subscription and will give the option for Lifetime when adding an additional unit.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

MomCatM4 said:


> Not only was I charged $12.95 when I already have one other TiVo on MSD, but between that charge showing up on my Visa bill and my receiving it in the mail, another charge was added after the closing date for the next month. I was not happy, to say the least--especially since my understanding was the same as others--once the "free" year was up, the charge would be the current MSD. The first person I talked to couldn't do the stop service/restart service to get the MSD, nor could she do anything about the charges. The second person could take care of the stop/restart, but was pretty adamant there was nothing to be done about the TWO $12.95 charges. That's when I asked to talk to a supervisor. The upshot was a compromise. I am to receive a $9 credit and then I "reupped" for another year at the $99 rate. Since this is on my old Series 2, I'll probably not renew at the end of next year--we'll see. But maybe this will help someone else who gets stuck with that surprise non-MSD rate?
> 
> JLB


While logged into my account I went to the Tivo homepage and looked at Tivos for sale.

As I looked at the details of the offer it said I was eligable for MSD, which I actually already have, but then said the add'l unit would be $9.95 with $12.95 crossed out and claiming this was a "reduction."

Since I already sorta understand what it meant from this thread I'd have to say it was a bit confusing to a newbie or someone who doesn't follow the boards here. One could get the idea that buying another Tivo would lower the monthly of the 1st Tivo to $9.95 rather than it actually being an *increase *for a new 3rd unit.

Let me say that I would have no interest in paying $9.95 for additional boxes. And more so since problems with the latest update. My S2DT STILL can't MRV with the 540, and previously after the update it was the other way around. This defeats my purpose in having 2 units! And both still have minor issues here & there since the "upgrade."

It is not worth $29.86 on top of my content providers' fees each month for me to have 3 Tivos even with the one at $6.95. I'm sorry it just isn't.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

$9.95 _is_ a reduction, from last years one year MSD pricing commitment that is, which is probably TiVo's perspective.
Or it is a reduction from the $12.95 first DVR monthly fee.


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## joedaddy (Mar 30, 2004)

Ok I haven't had a TiVo since I got rid of DTV a couple years ago.

I purchased a TiVoHD yesterday and so far have not activiated it. We also need a S2 DT for the back room. So could I just go purchase one, activate it, and then activiate my TiVoHD with the $399 lifetime plan?

I hope that makes sense because it does in my head.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

joedaddy said:


> Ok I haven't had a TiVo since I got rid of DTV a couple years ago.
> 
> I purchased a TiVoHD yesterday and so far have not activiated it. We also need a S2 DT for the back room. So could I just go purchase one, activate it, and then activiate my TiVoHD with the $399 lifetime plan?
> 
> I hope that makes sense because it does in my head.


makes sense all the way around, especially on waiting and doing lifetime on the TiVo HD.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

joedaddy said:


> Ok I haven't had a TiVo since I got rid of DTV a couple years ago.
> 
> I purchased a TiVoHD yesterday and so far have not activiated it. We also need a S2 DT for the back room. So could I just go purchase one, activate it, and then activiate my TiVoHD with the $399 lifetime plan?
> 
> I hope that makes sense because it does in my head.


Yes. You could probably even within 30 days cancel the S2DT service and resubscribe under a MSD rate since you'll then have lifetime on another receiver.


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## joedaddy (Mar 30, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Yes. You could probably even within 30 days cancel the S2DT service and resubscribe under a MSD rate since you'll then have lifetime on another receiver.


Hmm, now the gears are turning in my head! Is the longest MSD option 1 year for $99? Or is there a discount for longer prepaid subs?

Guess I should have grabbed more than one of the TiVoHD's for $176 when I had the chance.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

joedaddy said:


> Hmm, now the gears are turning in my head! Is the longest MSD option 1 year for $99? Or is there a discount for longer prepaid subs?
> 
> Guess I should have grabbed more than one of the TiVoHD's for $176 when I had the chance.


That's the cheapest (per-month) MSD option right now, at least unless you consider lifetime at $399 to be cheaper.


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## joedaddy (Mar 30, 2004)

dswallow said:


> That's the cheapest (per-month) MSD option right now, at least unless you consider lifetime at $399 to be cheaper.


Thanks for all the help. Was able to snag a ST S2 from Radio Shack for $48.97 plus the $170 MIR. Which works out to the unit and 1 year service for free after rebate.

Now if I could just get our VOIP service to work with it I would be all set.

Thanks again for the helpful info!


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

Hmmm ... now I'm starting to understand ... people *like* the new pricing scheme. It's just an updated version of Martin Gardner's _Mathematical Games_ column.

Seriously. I'm glad the pricing scheme was significantly rationalized over the 2006 edition, BUT ...

TiVo tries to reprent itself as a consumer product. A dramatic improvement over the status quo. So why is the pricing *still* so complicated that people need to ask questions on a 3rd party web site before they can understand it?


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## letsroll (Dec 1, 2007)

joedaddy said:


> Now if I could just get our VOIP service to work with it I would be all set.


I don't have Tivo yet, but from what I've read the newer Tivos don't need a landline, just a broadband internet connection. If you have a wireless adapter you should be okay.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

Last I heard you need a landline for the initial setup on the S2 units. No idea about the HD Tivos.

I use Vonage and have never had a problem using Tivo with it. Of course I hardly ever usa a phone connection because I have broadband. But I know it works.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

restart88 said:


> Last I heard you need a landline for the initial setup on the S2 units. No idea about the HD Tivos.
> 
> I use Vonage and have never had a problem using Tivo with it. Of course I hardly ever usa a phone connection because I have broadband. But I know it works.


The Series 2 DT, Series 3 and TiVo HD can all be set up out of the box using an Internet connection or a telephone line.


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## k00k (Nov 17, 2007)

I am not a current paying TiVo subscriber. I have an older TiVo that has been in the closet collecting dust and hasn't been subbed since 2003.

I purchased a TiVo S3 HD (THX one) last week from an online retailer (not direct from TiVo) and should receive it tomorrow. I'd like to get lifetime on it.

So my 3 part question is:

*1)* Can I re-sub my old TiVo for the regular monthly $12.95 sub thus enabling MSD?

*2)* Can I then purchase lifetime for my new S3 HD?

*3)* Finally, can I cancel the old unit's monthly plan within 30 days with no penalties and keep the lifetime on the S3 HD?

Any reason this won't work? Should I just call TiVo instead and ask them to give me Lifetime on my new S3 HD?

Thanks in advance!


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

With a lifetime on the HD you'd pay $7.95 MSD for the 2nd unit either way without all the song & dance as I understand it.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

restart88 said:


> With a lifetime on the HD you'd pay $7.95 MSD for the 2nd unit either way without all the song & dance as I understand it.


$9.95/month for additional units now, or $99 prepaid for 1 year.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

Yipes! They've raise it again already!! 

LOL

Thanks for catching that.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

restart88 said:


> Last I heard you need a landline for the initial setup on the S2 units. No idea about the HD Tivos.


(Looks at TiVo HD which has never been connected to a phone line)
(Looks at Series 3 which has never been connected to a phone line)
(Looks at Series 2 540 which has never been connected to a phone line)

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........
With the right network adaptor, a Series 2 doesn't need to be connected to the phone line.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

Right, but I was talking about trying the wireless G before I knew if he even had a broadband connection.

I can't remember if my S2DT needed a service connection before it had the drivers for the wireless adapter but I'm thinking it did.

I've since switched to all wired, but that's a different matter. The wireless adapter did work fine after the 1st service connection but that was about a year ago that I last faced that issue.

But come to think of it that was another thread where the guy had only a cell phone.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

restart88 said:


> I can't remember if my S2DT needed a service connection before it had the drivers for the wireless adapter but I'm thinking it did.


The Tivo adapter drivers came in 7.2.x something. Same time as they enabled broadband guided setup.

I thought the S2DTs came preloaded with 8.x something. But I don't know if that 8.x had all that 7.2.x had or not. The may not have merged the two platforms until a later build of 8.x.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

I have been to the Tivo Price Plans page and have been reading this thread and I can't figure out exactly what I need to do. I have two lifetimed Tivos and one with a soon expiring 1 year sub that I got when I transferred it's lifetime to the Series 3. I just bought an HD from Amazon. So what do I do next to buy a new lifetime sub for the THD? Do I call Tivo? Do I hook it up and activate it first? Tivo's website doesn't really explain what to do if you don't buy the box from them and you want a lifetime sub.


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## ckelly33 (Oct 30, 2004)

tivopony, you up for a question?

I put off making this decision (whether to go Lifetime) until this week. Here's my story:

I bought 3 S3's last year (at the *gulp* original price) and transferred my lifetime from a S1 to one of the boxes. Since I didn't really want to use the S1 anymore, the reps at TiVo were kind enough to place my 1 year "free" service that would have gove to an unused S1 over to one of my S3's.

Today, that 1 year contract ended. I was under the impression that I could add in lifetime to this unit - since it was under no sort of contract at all. I actually called back when this program was anounced and talked with a lady who confirmed that I could do that, but not until the 1 year expired - TODAY!

I called today and the guy said that unless I bought a NEW unit, I wasn't eligible. Which rep was right? If I cannot go to lifetime, will this box be "grandfathered in"?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

How many price changes do we need to go through before TiVo makes up it's mind?

In the last two years, lifetime went away, came back, went away, came back, we went to contract pricing, then a price change, now this.

I can't even explain to people how much TiVo costs anymore.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Consumer pricing tends to be as flaky as the consumers themselves.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> How many price changes do we need to go through before TiVo makes up it's mind?
> 
> I can't even explain to people how much TiVo costs anymore.


Until people with a clue what they are doing get into decision making positions. This time a tiny smidge of that is evident - hopefully not by pure accident.

Did you know that TiVo (and its CEO) believes that we think TiVo costs $25-30 per month, and that that is a problem they need to address with advertising/marketing?!

The pathology within the company and the disconnect from reality are truly things to marvel at.


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## thespacepope72 (Jan 25, 2005)

I have one S3 with 3 years prepaid because I have one TV. So my total costs to date are:

S3: $500
antenna/amp/install: $250
3-year prepaid: $300
Wireless-G adapter: $30

So for three years (assuming there are not other charges or repairs) my total cost is $1080 or about $30 per month.

If Tivo keeps their 3 year pre-paid pricing the same ($299), It will take me roughly 6 years (2 prepaid 3-year periods) to lower my average monthly cost to $19.17. This of course assumes that I will not have to repair or replace my Tivo, I stay with OTA, HDMI still exists and works, etc.

I have made a choice to only have one television in my home and therefore I am not eligible for Tivo's lifetime offers which would make this a better deal. Overall, my pricing is better than cable or satellite but for my current outlay, I could have built/purchased a really great HTPC which would provide me much more flexibility (online radio, DVD player, jukebox that works since 9.2 somehow breaks mp3 playback) than a S3.

Please excuse my complaining but I think it is really unfortunate that I am not eligible for lifetime service simply because I refuse to own two tvs and therefore 2 tivos.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

"Unfortunate" is a good word. I think if you look around here you'll see _some _folks using such rationales to support a contention that things are "unfair" or "wrong" rather than "unfortunately". You're keeping things in proper perspective.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

It sounds like there are loopholes that would allow a one TiVo owner to go lifetime, though.


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## thespacepope72 (Jan 25, 2005)

I called and asked nicely about getting in on the lifetime deal and was told that was absolutely not an option. I guess I could play CSR roulette but that can get tiring.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

The trick (which I learned from dswallow's post) is to order two TiVos, one with lifetime, and then cancel the nonlifetimed one within 30 days to get a 100&#37; refund, leaving you with the one lifetimed TiVo. No need to bargain with any CSRs.


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## thespacepope72 (Jan 25, 2005)

That is not an option since I am outside the 30 day window by about 6 months. TiVo is just plain silly for allowing new subs to do that and existing subs who paid alot more for the boxes to get left out in the rain. Timing is everything I guess.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Since you already did the 3 year prepay, I can see your point that to convert it to lifetime (and get a $299 refund in exchange for a $399 lifetime payment) would require CSR cooperation.

If you were month-to-month, you could just unsub, and then buy the second TiVo and lifetime the first one (that you just unsubbed), and then return the second TiVo within 30 days.

But you're not month-to-month, so that won't work.


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## thespacepope72 (Jan 25, 2005)

I guess that theoretically I could sell mine with remaining prepaid on eBay, buy two more, get lifetime on one of them, cancel the non-lifetime tivo, return the non-lifetime tivo, and be left with one lifetime tivo. I would love to explain that to the wife.


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## ckelly33 (Oct 30, 2004)

I just want to go Lifetime on one without any contract on it. I really don't understand the whole logic of me paying $299 for three years when I could pay $399 and get a lifetime service contract. 

My question stands: is this truly for NEW units only or is it an option for non-contracted units as well?


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## thespacepope72 (Jan 25, 2005)

There is no logic. This is for new units only. The additional catch is that the new units must be added as an MSD.

If you are month to month, do this:
1. Order a new TiVoHD or S3.
2. Add Lifetime on the new TivoHD or S3.
3. Cancel month to month on the old Tivo.
4. Now you have 1 Tivo S3 or Lifetime and one old tivo to sell on eBay.


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## thespacepope72 (Jan 25, 2005)

The more I think about this the more likely it is that am going to just end my relationship with Tivo when my contract is up, unless Tivo makes Lifetime an option for people like me.


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## ckelly33 (Oct 30, 2004)

I'm on hold with them and going ro try a shortcut to seth's idea - I'm going to try to canccel the old one and add it back as a Lifetime. Otherwise, I might try his way. It shouldn't be any trouble to cancel since it is now month-to month anyway.


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## thespacepope72 (Jan 25, 2005)

Based on my experiences I would strongly recommend never getting anything longer than a 1 year pre-paid unless it is lifetime.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Before they re-came out with lifetime, I think the 3 year prepaid was the most attractive option. It's unfortunate, as I think people would have thought that they were shrewd in picking it, only to discover a month later (for example), the new lifetime for just $100 more was announced.


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## ckelly33 (Oct 30, 2004)

Yeah, they really should either leave it or take it away. I paid $799 for my TiVo because the :Last chance to get TiVo lifetime" was only if you bought by 12/31 of last year...and supposedly only if you bought FROM TIVO! I came to find out that I could've saved $100-200 and bought it from amazon and TiVo would've still honored the Lifetime. That stung enough but then to REINTRODUCE it after rushing me to jump in before I would have otherwise....not a good way to treat a long-time customer that's been there since it hit the shelves.

like Tim said, I also feel for the guys 31 days out of an option that they didn't have. 

That seems to be the neew marketing - cater to the new customers at the expense of your loyal base. 

BTW, my "shortcut" worked.


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## nocturne1 (Aug 17, 2004)

nocturne1 said:


> After 90 minutes on the phone with 3 people (most of it on hold), I was able to transfer my MSD 3 year monthly commitment to my DT, and buy a lifetime for my HD. Initially talked to billing, who said they couldn't do anything, so they sent me to tech support. He couldn't make the mods to my account either, so I was sent to retention. After getting there, I was all set within 10 minutes. So it seems that that group has the most leeway in getting things done, at least in my situation.
> 
> I'm glad TiVo made things work out the way I wanted. I still think it's incredibly stupid that it took so much time/effort to do so though. First rule in business is always make it easy for a customer to give you money.....


Ok, now I'm pissed off. So I went through all of the above. Lifetime now on the HD, 3 year monthly MSD at $6.95 for the DT. Then I see the December charge. $12.95. I call them up, and they are telling me that it's the primary, so I don't get MSD. This was NOT explained to me when I made the change. Talked to billing, who offered me the current MSD of 9.95 (saying that's the only thing in the system), but I then wanted to talk to retentions to see if they could get me back to what I'd been paying. Which was worse - they wouldn't budge on the $12.95 until my 3 years is up.

Moral of the story - if you open your wallet to Tivo for lifetime, they reach in and grab even more. I'm just f'ing sick of all of this. My days of officially recommending them has just ended.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

nocturne1 said:


> Moral of the story - if you open your wallet to Tivo for lifetime, they reach in and grab even more.


 That's quite a story.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

nocturne1 said:


> they wouldn't budge on the $12.95 until my 3 years is up.
> 
> Moral of the story - if you open your wallet to Tivo for lifetime, they reach in and grab even more. I'm just f'ing sick of all of this. My days of officially recommending them has just ended.


This is so sick and twisted, I can't come to terms with it. I can see some tiny logic to TiVo needing a full rate unit on the account at some point to Qualify for the LT offer, but then the LT itself is supposedly a Qualifying sub. The end result is completely asinine.

Dispute all your charges and tell TiVo to suck wind.


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## nocturne1 (Aug 17, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> This is so sick and twisted, I can't come to terms with it. I can see some tiny logic to TiVo needing a full rate unit on the account at some point to Qualify for the LT offer, but then the LT itself is supposedly a Qualifying sub. The end result is completely asinine.


The explanation was that the oldest box on my account is the qualifying unit. Since the DT was older, it's now full rate.

However, I asked if I was to buy a brand new unit, transfer the service to the new one from the DT, and throw away the DT, is my qualifying unit now the lifetime HD. Of course, the answer is no. Because the service on it is older....

You just can't win. What's even more screwed is that I'm now stuck paying more for 3 years than it would cost me for lifetime (now that I'm at 12.95/mo). Incredible.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

This makes no sense, because I'm told that you can cancel the qualifying sub, and the lifetimes stays, even though there's no longer a qualifying unit. I infer that the choice of qualifying unit is not set in stone.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

nocturne1 said:


> You just can't win. What's even more screwed is that I'm now stuck paying more for 3 years than it would cost me for lifetime (now that I'm at 12.95/mo). Incredible.


Look, there is no such thing as a three year contract at $12.95 anymore. So if they are gaming you this way, you are entitled to a current contract on current terms. That would mean something like $12.95 for 1 year.

Not that I am even advocating the above. Its just that they are screwing you beyond belief here. They are playing a childs game of heads I win tails you lose. They are inconsistent, illogical, deceptive ...


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## nocturne1 (Aug 17, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Look, there is no such thing as a three year contract at $12.95 anymore. So if they are gaming you this way, you are entitled to a current contract on current terms. That would mean something like $12.95 for 1 year.
> 
> Not that I am even advocating the above. Its just that they are screwing you beyond belief here. They are playing a childs game of heads I win tails you lose. They are inconsistent, illogical, deceptive ...


The contract was started on the old pricing scheme. So it kept the same rates, but bumped me to non-MSD. Oh, according to them, I can feel free to pick another plan when the 3 years is up..... Or cancel the contract for...what was it, $300?, and then pick a new plan. But it's still going to be a non-MSD plan...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

nocturne1 said:


> The contract was on the old pricing scheme. So it kept the same rates, but bumped me to non-MSD. Oh, according to them, I can feel free to pick another plan when the 3 years is up..... Or cancel the contract for...what was it, $300?, and then pick a new plan. But it's still going to be a non-MSD plan...


BS.

Let's break it down.

You had a 3yr MSD contract and a month to month full rate "plan"

Clearly you could swap them so the 3yr MSD was on the DT and the HD was full rate.

TiVo permitted you, having a Qualifying sub, to buy LT on the unit with the Qualifying sub, which LT is supposed to still be a Qualifying sub. Thus you always had a Qualifying sub and never were not eligible for MSD, preserving your original $6.95 terms.

TiVo seems to be playing a game here, and in another situation in another thread, where if you somehow make a change to your Qualifying sub they cancel the Grandfathering on every other sub on your account, raising the price.

If instead of buying LT, you had taken the full rate (Qualifying) month to month on the HD and bought 1yr pre-pay for $129, would you expect to have your 3yr MSD plan change to non-MSD pricing? No, of course not.

I realize you understand all this. I am just articulating the absurdity of it.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

timckelley said:


> This makes no sense, because I'm told that you can cancel the qualifying sub, and the lifetimes stays, even though there's no longer a qualifying unit. I infer that the choice of qualifying unit is not set in stone.


You can do that on a new account because you have 30 days to cancel a new subscription. If a qualifying unit is under a commitment but past the 30 day cancellation period then you're stuck keeping it, or at least paying the penalty to prematurely cancel it.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

nocturne1 said:


> The contract was started on the old pricing scheme. So it kept the same rates, but bumped me to non-MSD. Oh, according to them, I can feel free to pick another plan when the 3 years is up..... Or cancel the contract for...what was it, $300?, and then pick a new plan. But it's still going to be a non-MSD plan...


If you can clearly write this up, maybe even including some graphic representation of it )), I'd suggest you give it one more try, in writing (as in real postal mail), cc'd to the executive offices at TiVo. The complexity of it all is simply beyond trying to explain on the phone, especially to someone who then has to explain it to someone else to get permission to do anything.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Oops. I guess I misunderstood. Well, maybe technically what TiVo is doing to nocturne is in the rules, though I'm still confused by this labyrinth. If it's by the rules though, I think the ramifications should have been explained to him, when they let him do the transfer.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

dswallow said:


> You can do that on a new account because you have 30 days to cancel a new subscription. If a qualifying unit is under a commitment but past the 30 day cancellation period then you're stuck keeping it, or at least paying the penalty to prematurely cancel it.


The thing is, he is keeping the commitment/contract. It also turns out that the contract is NOT the Qualifier. He is merely changing the Qualifying sub from one thing to another; like my example: he has a Qualifying month to month sub at $12.95 and he buys a 1yr pre-pay for $129. Certainly all the other TiVoes on his account don't reset.

Follow the logic of this... Suppose you have a Qualifying $12.95/mo sub and 5 other grandfathered $6.95 subs (some or all can be under contract terms) You change the Qualifying sub to $129 1yr pre-pay. Now TiVo raises all 5 of your other TiVoes to either $9.95 or $12.95 from $6.95 each.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

HDTiVo said:


> The thing is, he is keeping the commitment/contract. It also turns out that the contract is NOT the Qualifier. He is merely changing the Qualifying sub from one thing to another; like my example: he has a Qualifying month to month sub at $12.95 and he buys a 1yr pre-pay for $129. Certainly all the other TiVoes on his account don't reset.
> 
> Follow the logic of this... Suppose you have a Qualifying $12.95/mo sub and 5 other grandfathered $6.95 subs (some or all can be under contract terms) You change the Qualifying sub to $129 1yr pre-pay. Now TiVo raises all 5 of your other TiVoes to either $9.95 or $12.95 from $6.95 each.


I was really not trying to get into his specific case because I couldn't follow it (based from the posts of his that I read... I'm sure going back a little further would be something that might make it clear to me... still, the complexity is apparently there if it's not clear in every subsequent message), which is why I thought a written letter to TiVo might be better than trying to explain anything about it on the phone.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

HDTiVo said:


> TiVo permitted you, having a Qualifying sub, to buy LT on the unit with the Qualifying sub, which LT is supposed to still be a Qualifying sub. Thus you always had a Qualifying sub and never were not eligible for MSD, preserving your original $6.95 terms.


No, it does not work that way. You cannot use unit A as a qualifying sub to purchase lifetime on unit B, and then turn around to say that unit A qualifies for MSD because of unit B. If you want to get MSD on unit A, you have to cancel and re-activate at the MSD rate, using the lifetime unit B as the qualifying unit.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Let me see if I understand this correctly:
1. Original: full rate DT, 3-year MSD HD.
2. Swap: full rate HD, 3-year MSD DT.
3. Cancel HD: 3-year MSD DT becomes 3-year full rate DT.
4. Buy lifetime HD: 3-year full rate DT, lifetime HD.


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## nocturne1 (Aug 17, 2004)

c3 said:


> Let me see if I understand this correctly:
> 1. Original: full rate DT, 3-year MSD HD.
> 2. Swap: full rate HD, 3-year MSD DT.
> 3. Cancel HD: 3-year MSD DT becomes 3-year full rate DT.
> 4. Buy lifetime HD: 3-year full rate DT, lifetime HD.


Mostly correct. Except for #3 - I wasn't told that ANYTHING was cancelled. The Full rate DT that got swapped to the HD wasn't under contract (in fact, it came out of prepay a month prior to all of this).

So what it seems is that #3 DID happen, without my knowledge. As far as I was had known, I didn't go a second without having service on 2 Tivos. The word cancel was NEVER mentioned to me, nor any mention of rate increases.

Anyways, I guess I'll try writing this out and send to Tivo as suggested here. Wish me luck that they don't increase my rate even further after reading it!


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## djenkins (Dec 3, 2007)

I'm a new user, I've bought two Series3s that are on their way. If I register the first one, I become an existing subscriber, yes? Then I can get lifetime for the second one for $399? Immediately? And a multiple-service discount for the first one, after some cancellation or change of service? I&#8217;ve got to do this in a way that won&#8217;t mess up my rebates, which have time constraints and require &#8220;minimum 1-year service commitment&#8221;. I'd appreciate someone stepping me through the best way to navigate this...I'd go for two Lifetimes if I could get them, I think...


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

djenkins said:


> I'm a new user, I've bought two Series3s that are on their way. If I register the first one, I become an existing subscriber, yes? Then I can get lifetime for the second one for $399? Immediately? And a multiple-service discount for the first one, after some cancellation or change of service? Ive got to do this in a way that wont mess up my rebates, which have time constraints and require minimum 1-year service commitment. I'd appreciate someone stepping me through the best way to navigate this...I'd go for two Lifetimes if I could get them, I think...


You can't cancel the service then resubscribe and get a rebate. Once you cancel in the 30 day window, you no longer qualify for a rebate. If you resubscribe that same tivo, you won't qualify for a rebate because it has been previously activated.


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## djenkins (Dec 3, 2007)

scandia101 said:


> You can't cancel the service then resubscribe and get a rebate. Once you cancel in the 30 day window, you no longer qualify for a rebate. If you resubscribe that same tivo, you won't qualify for a rebate because it has been previously activated.


Then what would you suggest? Register the first with a 1-year prepaid? Monthly no good because of the "1-year commitment" clause? Then get lifetime on the second box, then get MSD for the first one after a year?


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

TiVoPony said:


> If you're an existing customer adding a new box, the best deal of all for that shiny new TiVo DVR is our Product Lifetime Special Price - $399. (Limited time only thru February 2nd for new activations.) Remember - you need to be an existing subscriber to get this.


(hope this wasn't already asked)
Hey TiVoPony,

I know your post says February 2nd and when I go to https://www3.tivo.com/store/plans.do while logged in, it also says "These special prices expire on February 2, 2008."

However, when I click on Plan Details under "TiVo Package, Product Lifetime service" while logged in, it says "This is a limited time offer available from November 8, 2007 until *February 13, 2008*. TiVo reserves the right to terminate this offer at anytime, for any reason."

Is the 13th a typo or does the offer really end on the 13th?


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## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

Wow. I remember when TiVo was easy. 

You just went to the store, picked either monthly or lifetime and that was that. I was in costco yesterday, and was pricing out a new HDTV and an HDTiVo. I found what I wanted and went home for spousal approval. Then I came here to make sure the MSD was still $6.95/mo (I have an existing S2 with Lifetime).

As it stands, (and I haven't read all 10 pages), I think I'm looking at either $399 for lifetime, or $9.95/mo for MSD. Not only am I leaning towards not getting the HDTiVo now, but I'm also skipping the HD TV (and the associated increase in my cable bill).

Congrats TiVo - you're helping me do my part towards a recession


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## rturrentine (Jan 24, 2003)

DVDerek you also have the option of transferring the lifetime from the S2 to the new HD box for $199. Tivo will then give you a free year on the older S2. After the year is up, I think you go to the 9.95 pricing.

In my case, I have a S2 lifetime and two older S2 for 6.96/month. I can transfer service to my new HD from the one of the 6.95 units (one is broken anyways) or transfer lifetime to it for $199.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

I have several Tivos. One is my original S1 that I transferred lifetime from and is nearing the end of its one year free. The second is an S3 with lifetime (transferred from the S1), the third is a Tivo HD at $6.95 MSD transferred from an S2 unit (I no longer have that S2). The fourth is an S2 at $6.95 and the fifth is another TivoHD at $9.95 at the current MSD.

I am about to cancel the S1 as it is not being used. Based on the comments of some, is that S1 my unit that causes all of the others to be eligible for MSD? Will that cause my two $6.95 units to re-set to $9.95?


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

larrs said:


> Will that cause my two $6.95 units to re-set to $9.95?


no


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## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

rturrentine said:


> DVDerek you also have the option of transferring the lifetime from the S2 to the new HD box for $199. Tivo will then give you a free year on the older S2. After the year is up, I think you go to the 9.95 pricing.
> 
> In my case, I have a S2 lifetime and two older S2 for 6.96/month. I can transfer service to my new HD from the one of the 6.95 units (one is broken anyways) or transfer lifetime to it for $199.


This is still available? Back the first time they announced this deal with the HDTiVo, my old Series 2 wasn't old enough to qualify.


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## rturrentine (Jan 24, 2003)

To transfer lifetime, the old lifetime unit still has to meet qualifications.

http://www3.tivo.com/tivo-promo/show.do?pg=/buytivo/hdservicetransfer.html

Unfortunately the pricing is complicated, depending on what your current Tivo account is, etc.

At least you can get lifetime. New Tivo users don't have that option.. at least directly (they can have it gifted to them).


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## VanGoghLikesTivo (Jan 18, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> Guys,
> 
> While our policy is that the MSD price is now $9.95, in these two specific cases it may be possible to request an exception for the $6.95 rate. Every customers' case is unique...if you have had that extra DVR in the closet for months and months this wouldn't apply to you. Or if your 'free service' expired some time ago. But for people in this situation for whom there is an obvious overlap with the two MSD plans, a call to our customer support team may help.
> 
> Once again I have to add the disclaimer - please don't call and tell the representative that 'the employee on the forum said I could have this'. I haven't and I can't. I don't have those kind of powers. The support staff is the only way to handle this, and they'll evaluate it on a case by case basis. There's actually a fair amount of manual work to enable the old MSD price on a contract, it would not be a simple or short phone conversation (just to set expectations).


How is a customer supposed to request an exception to get the $6.95 rate if we can't refer to your posts outlining the policy? I had a Lifetime Humax box and paid $199 to transfer to a new S3 unit in December 2006 with the understanding that I would get free use of the old box for a year and then pay $6.95 per month afterwards. I used both boxes during the 2007 with no problems. However, in January 2008, my credit card was billed for $12.95. When I called customer support to complain that I was no getting the $6.95 rate, they were able to reduce the rate to the $9.95, but said it was not possible to get the $6.95 rate. The support person knew nothing about an exception that could be made or manual work to enable the old MSD price (or at least did not tell me). I spent over an hour on the phone with customer support to no avail. The best they could offer me was $100 off a new TivoHD unit which I don't need, but suppose I could try to eBay.

I am frustrated by the way TiVo is treating its long-time customers. TiVo advertised the lifetime transfer deal as a one-time chance for its VIP customers. What TiVo did to me was jack up the monthly rate without any notice.


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