# What will Comcast charge if I use a Mini?



## prisk (Nov 19, 2006)

Let me start by saying I despise Comcast and the exorbitant fees they charge for a cable box or cablecard ($9.95). I have 2 cable boxes in the house and 3 cablecards. The way they are allocated means I pay $9.95 x 3 for 2 boxes and 1 cc, plus $1.15 for a Cc installed in a 2-card Tivo S3 (to get them to acknowledge that price, which is on their website, required a complaint to the Illinois Attorney General's office, but it worked, and they even refunded 18 months worth of overbillings). But enough of my rant. Here is my question:

If I get a Roamio Plus and 3 TiVo Mini's (total of 4 TV's in the house), will I pay:

a) $0 for the boxes/CC since the first is free and there is only 1 CC in the house
b) $9.95 for a "digital outlet fee"
c) $29.85 because I have 3 devices getting signal, even though only one actually has a CC in it (assuming first one is free)
d) $39.80 because CC wants to charge for every TV in the house
e) something else, because Comcast has no idea what to charge and will make it up as they go along

Any thoughts? (and yes, I know to set this up is expensive initially, but I'd rather pay it to TiVo than Comcast).


----------



## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

I'm afraid I would have to go for (e) based on my experience of Comcast. The good news is they won't even know you have the Minis, so all you will pay is whatever they charge you for the Plus.


----------



## Bryan Lyle (Feb 6, 2002)

A


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Why would Comcast even know that you have Minis? They will charge you for the device that is hooked up to their system with a CC and nothing for Minis or PCs that you use to download stuff from your TiVo or anything else not related to them.

I don't even understand the question.

EDIT: Actually the first CC is usually included in your package, so A. I got stuck on wondering why you worried about the minis.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

a). The bonus of using the Mini. Though, this depends if your package includes a box. Comcast will not even know about the minis.


----------



## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

The only comment I would make to those saying "A" is that I would not put it beyond Comcast to start charging a fee based on the number of tuners activated on the cablecard.


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Comcast does not know you have the Minis and won't charge anything for them. What you pay for that one cable-card is up in the air though. In my case I don't pay for the 1 cable-card in my house, but I do get nicked with the BS "HD outlet" charge of $8.99 for that 1st cable-card which Comcast insists it also charges if I have their cable box and the same programming package.


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Scooby Doo said:


> The only comment I would make to those saying "A" is that I would not put it beyond Comcast to start charging a fee based on the number of tuners activated on the cablecard.


They would be stupid to do that, because the FCC would hand them their ass.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Scooby Doo said:


> The only comment I would make to those saying "A" is that I would not put it beyond Comcast to start charging a fee based on the number of tuners activated on the cablecard.


Comcast may not the best cable co (I don't know who is) but they will not be charging for each tuner used on a cable card, or charge you for each recording made. I will say that in CT Comcast does a great job for most of its customers.


----------



## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> They would be stupid to do that, because the FCC would hand them their ass.


What rule would they be breaking?


----------



## prisk (Nov 19, 2006)

An interesting side note: on the Tivo S3 (2 cablecards) and S4 (1 CC) I have HD, but not on the S2 (which uses a box) or the 4th TV which does not have a TiVo, just a standard cable box (no HD). They do not charge me for HD (an additional $16.99 per month) on a cablecard device.

So, although I am presuming (and hoping) for A, I lend credence to the person who states that Comcast might start charging based on the number of tuners enabled. Based on their past history, It sounds like something they'd do.


----------



## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

I had a Comcast cable box and a TiVo Premiere. I was being charged $9.95/month additional outlet, $2.95/month for CableCARD, and $9.95/month for an HD Technology fee.

I took the Comcast cable box back, upgraded to a Roamio Pro (with 4 Minis), and called Comcast to see what changed. I'm still being charged the CableCARD fee (even though their website says the first one is free; apparently they changed this about a year ago to start charging for it). I get a $2.50/month credit for my own equipment, and the $9.95/month digital outlet fee and the $9.95/month HD Tech fee were dropped.

I haven't received my first bill yet to verify this, but this is what the account representative said would occur.


----------



## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

FYI, when I called to get the CableCARD fee knocked off (after pointing it out on their website and arguing for hours), my CableCARD stopped working. They only way they could get it to work again is to charge the fee. I finally threw in the towel.


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Scooby Doo said:


> What rule would they be breaking?


They are required to have cable cards billed and work the same as their own provider equipment that they lease to customers. This is very easy to find, and there are huge threads about it.

So, if they wanted to charge for every tuner slot on a cable-card, they would need to make the same changes to their own mult-tuner DVR boxes.


----------



## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> So, if they wanted to charge for every tuner slot on a cable-card, they would need to make the same changes to their own mult-tuner DVR boxes.


Fair enough, but I wouldn't put that beyond them either! The problem with Comcast is the center seems to have very little control over the local management; as a result, somewhat irrespective of policy set by the center, the local management does seem to just make stuff up. See for example the many, many thread on HD technology fees, digital outlet fees etc.


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Well, it's not as easy as "local management" change with something this complex. It would require software on the back end that could figure out how many tuners on the CC you were using as well as updates to the billing software to account for them.

That's not a "local management" decision, that's a corporate decision and at the corporate level they are very aware of what they have to do to comply with the FCC.

Comcast, like other providers will tolerate cablecard until they can defeat it or move away from it. It's in our best interest if TiVo is able to get something like IPTV working with Comcast and others and then at that point CC is gone but perhaps they charge per "stream" you get simultaneously.

In any event, all of that is at least a few yrs away.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

They couldn't do that even if they wanted to. CCs are one way, meaning the cable company can communicate with them but they can not communicate with the cable company. So there is no way for the CC to report how many tuners it's supporting back to the cable company, and as such no possible way for them to charge per tuner. Plus there are laws in place limiting how much they can charge for a CC rental.


----------



## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> Well, it's not as easy as "local management" change with something this complex. It would require software on the back end that could figure out how many tuners on the CC you were using as well as updates to the billing software to account for them.
> 
> That's not a "local management" decision, that's a corporate decision and at the corporate level they are very aware of what they have to do to comply with the FCC.


Comcast is littered with legacy conditional access and billing systems. And yes, these are generally under the complete control of local management. That's why there is so little consistency in billing practice across regions. The number of tuners activated is right there in the cablecard settings screen which they already have remote access to. Not saying I think they will do something, just that it wouldn't be hard.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

geekmedic said:


> FYI, when I called to get the CableCARD fee knocked off (after pointing it out on their website and arguing for hours), my CableCARD stopped working. They only way they could get it to work again is to charge the fee. I finally threw in the towel.


Well, their system is set up to charge a fee and offset by providing a credit.


----------



## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> CCs are one way


I didn't know that. I stand corrected. I could have sworn the guy who paired my cablecard to my new Roamio said he could see at his end that it had worked.


----------



## prisk (Nov 19, 2006)

I think in my area (Chicago) the first device is free (you get a box or CC free). Then they charge for each additional device. Where they got confused is that my first device was a TiVo S3, which has 2 cards. The first was free, the second $1.15. What they did instead was give the first box for free, then charge $9.95 for both CC's in the Tivo S3. It was a net of about $8, but on principle it sucked. They rearranged the fee structure to maximize profit When I called them on this they said, basically, that the 1st Cc free, 2nd at a discount, doesn't apply if you have other devices. Kind of like saying, "Buy a big mac, second free. Unless you get fries, then the fries are free and the Big Mac is full price." They made it up as they went along. Or it was an internal policy, but conflicted with their printed policy on their web site. Here is the link: http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-support/cable-tv/about-cablecards/ and the actual text:

*How much will I be charged to use a CableCARD?*
The first CableCARD in a retail device (e.g., TiVo devices or CableCARD-equipped televisions) is provided at no additional charge to Comcast customers. If a second CableCARD is needed for the same device (e.g., TiVo Series 3 boxes), there is a nominal fee for the additional card. Check your local market pricing for this information. Again, this only applies to a second CableCARD in the same device


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Scooby Doo said:


> I didn't know that. I stand corrected. I could have sworn the guy who paired my cablecard to my new Roamio said he could see at his end that it had worked.


Yeah, he's full of sh*t. They can tell that their system is setup right, and they can send hits to the card which "should" enable specific features/channels, but they get no response from the card. The only way they can tell anything about the card is to look at those special screens on your TiVo itself.


----------



## timothy.downey (Feb 26, 2009)

My $0.02, since I've recently done exactly this. I'm down to only having a single cablecard from Comcast as my only equipment from them. Yay! Doing so has made my bill drop substantially. I have a Tivo Premiere XL4 and a Mini.

The trick for me to get the CC fees to go away was to return the CC (actually two S cards) from my old TivoHD when I got the Premiere. I returned the two S cards, an old Comcast settop box from a different tv, and got an M card in return. When they removed all the old equipment and added the M card, my CC charge went away.

The explanation was that as long as I had any other Comcast set top boxes, they were somehow the primary outlet and then they would charge for the CC. I know this is contrary to even the info you find on the Comcast website.

Either way, it worked out for me and between the set top box and the two S cards, I've dropped probably $20 a month off of my Comcast bill. Nice!

Tim


----------



## andrews777 (Aug 23, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah, he's full of sh*t. They can tell that their system is setup right, and they can send hits to the card which "should" enable specific features/channels, but they get no response from the card. The only way they can tell anything about the card is to look at those special screens on your TiVo itself.


I got a similar response from Verizon when I was working through some pairing issues yesterday. (I hadn't plugged the coax into the outlet.) The CSR kept insisting that everything was good on his end, so clearly they lack some feedback mechanism which is probably common across cable companies.


----------



## andrews777 (Aug 23, 2007)

timothy.downey said:


> The trick for me to get the CC fees to go away was to return the CC (actually two S cards) from my old TivoHD when I got the Premiere.


This brings up a point people with TivoHDs should consider: You can replace to S cards with a single M card in the TivoHD. I did that years ago (when I had an S card go bad) and that halfed the number of cards I needed.

Not an issue if you have a Roamio since it only has a single slot, but worth knowing if you are keeping a TivoHD active.


----------



## prisk (Nov 19, 2006)

When I spoke with TiVo today and went through my current configuration, the rep on the phone said to take the M-card out of my S4, put it in to the new Roamio, and then call Comcast to have them re-pair it to the new box. Sounds simple. Avoids a truck roll. Avoids Comcast touching my device. Anyone try this? Is Comcast even capable of handling this?


----------



## prisk (Nov 19, 2006)

timothy.downey said:


> My $0.02, since I've recently done exactly this. I'm down to only having a single cablecard from Comcast as my only equipment from them. Yay! Doing so has made my bill drop substantially. I have a Tivo Premiere XL4 and a Mini.
> 
> The trick for me to get the CC fees to go away was to return the CC (actually two S cards) from my old TivoHD when I got the Premiere. I returned the two S cards, an old Comcast settop box from a different tv, and got an M card in return. When they removed all the old equipment and added the M card, my CC charge went away.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I want to do. They charge me about $31 per months for the boxes ad CC's, minus $5 for my owned equipment. Think my payback period is about 2 years. Still, I'd rather pay double to TiVo than half to Comcast.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

prisk said:


> When I spoke with TiVo today and went through my current configuration, the rep on the phone said to take the M-card out of my S4, put it in to the new Roamio, and then call Comcast to have them re-pair it to the new box. Sounds simple. Avoids a truck roll. Avoids Comcast touching my device. Anyone try this? Is Comcast even capable of handling this?


Yes, I've done it several times in the past. Call Comcast's national cablecard number: 1-877-405-2298


----------



## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

Scooby Doo said:


> I didn't know that. I stand corrected. I could have sworn the guy who paired my cablecard to my new Roamio said he could see at his end that it had worked.


I had the same sort of experience calling Time-Warner.

I had to call Time-Warner CableCard hotline a second time because I replaced the hard drive after the first pairing call. Just making small talk with the CSR, I told him I was calling again for the same device because had I replaced the hard drive. He sounded surprised, and said something like "The Roamio is brand new and the drive failed?"

Somehow he knew the device was a Roamio, because I never said anything more specific than I had "a Tivo."


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

prisk said:


> When I spoke with TiVo today and went through my current configuration, the rep on the phone said to take the M-card out of my S4, put it in to the new Roamio, and then call Comcast to have them re-pair it to the new box. Sounds simple. Avoids a truck roll. Avoids Comcast touching my device. Anyone try this? Is Comcast even capable of handling this?


Did this with Charter the other day. Took like 5-6 minutes for her to get a supervisor to unpair the card (apparently grunts can't do that) but the she was able to complete the pairing to the new Roamio without issue.


----------



## Big Boy Laroux (Oct 10, 2006)

geekmedic said:


> I had a Comcast cable box and a TiVo Premiere. I was being charged $9.95/month additional outlet, $2.95/month for CableCARD, and $9.95/month for an HD Technology fee.
> 
> I took the Comcast cable box back, upgraded to a Roamio Pro (with 4 Minis), and called Comcast to see what changed. I'm still being charged the CableCARD fee (even though their website says the first one is free; apparently they changed this about a year ago to start charging for it). I get a $2.50/month credit for my own equipment, and the $9.95/month digital outlet fee and the $9.95/month HD Tech fee were dropped.
> 
> I haven't received my first bill yet to verify this, but this is what the account representative said would occur.


How did you get the HD Tech fee dropped? I was told that fee is for ANYONE receiving hd channels, not just if you have an hd comcast box.


----------



## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

Big Boy Laroux said:


> How did you get the HD Tech fee dropped? I was told that fee is for ANYONE receiving hd channels, not just if you have an hd comcast box.


Dunno. When I called the lady dropped both. Have a feeling it'll return when they do their audits. I haven't seen my bill yet to confirm it's been dropped.


----------



## prisk (Nov 19, 2006)

Big Boy Laroux said:


> How did you get the HD Tech fee dropped? I was told that fee is for ANYONE receiving hd channels, not just if you have an hd comcast box.


In my case, I had 3 CC's in tow TiVo's (2 in an S3 an 1 in an S4), plus two standard def boxes (the small Motorola ones), one on the S2 and one on a TV with no TiVo. It appears as though the CC's get HD regardless of the HD fee or not, and since I had no HD boxes in the house I didn't need the fee. Had it this way for 2.5 years. And at one point they did charge me the HD fee (along with the fancy HD box), then I returned it and got a regular box, and the fee went away.

I believe (could be wrong but I think not), that Comcast only charges the HD fee if you rent HD equipment from them (an HD box or DVR). Don't think it applies to CC's, but postings on forums indicate that Comcast will charge whatever they can if they think they can get away with it.


----------



## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

One of the major issues with discussing Comcast here is that every local office has different billing practices. It's not as bad as it used to be, but there are definitely differences in billing rates and practices.


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

prisk said:


> In my case, I had 3 CC's in tow TiVo's (2 in an S3 an 1 in an S4), plus two standard def boxes (the small Motorola ones), one on the S2 and one on a TV with no TiVo. It appears as though the CC's get HD regardless of the HD fee or not, and since I had no HD boxes in the house I didn't need the fee. Had it this way for 2.5 years. And at one point they did charge me the HD fee (along with the fancy HD box), then I returned it and got a regular box, and the fee went away.
> 
> I believe (could be wrong but I think not), that Comcast only charges the HD fee if you rent HD equipment from them (an HD box or DVR). Don't think it applies to CC's, but postings on forums indicate that Comcast will charge whatever they can if they think they can get away with it.


I have talked to Comcast extensively about this and they insist that if you have any equipment that gets HD that they have to charge you the HD charge, including with a cablecard.

I have never been able to get the HD fee removed.

//edit

OK, make a liar out of me Comcast. I just checked a more recent bill which has me down to one cable-card. There is zero charged for the cable-card and I appear to actually be getting a $2.50 per month "customer owned equipment" rebate back on my bill.


----------



## prisk (Nov 19, 2006)

jmpage2 said:


> I have talked to Comcast extensively about this and they insist that if you have any equipment that gets HD that they have to charge you the HD charge, including with a cablecard.
> 
> I have never been able to get the HD fee removed.
> 
> ...


That is consistent with billing practices in my area, Chicago. Having said that, they don't always know or understand their own practices very well, or have exceptions to the published policies that are not themselves published. I have 2 TiVos that use CC's, and I get a $5.00 credit each month for "customer-owned equipment." Of course, they charge me $31 for their own crappy equipment, but that's life in the big city. Waiting till TiVo announces a Christmas sale before I call them to order my new Roamio Plus and 3 Mini's. Agent on the phone said they will usually cut a deal if ordering that much stuff.


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Well, you will be very happy I think. The Roamios+Minis pretty awesome combo.


----------



## howardlee2 (Sep 13, 2013)

PRISK,

i couldn't help but chuckle at your comments re;"scamcast"! i also have a series 3 tivo with 3 other boxes and they are insistent on charging me $9.95 for each cable card in the series 3! i tried to walk both the CSR and her supervisor through the mislogic of what they do to no avail. in the past i have gone through the Northbrook village cable dpt. and eventually received a credit on my account but they never fixed the billing issue. i liked your idea of going through the il att. gen office. did you just fill out a form and mail it in or call them? and what was the process like?

thanks, HL


----------



## howardlee2 (Sep 13, 2013)

i am looking at getting roamio/mini solution but want to 'settle up' with scamcast first!


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

howardlee2 said:


> i am looking at getting roamio/mini solution but want to 'settle up' with scamcast first!


I think it's actually easier the other way. You drop down to one multistream cablecard, which if you don't have any other Comcast gear is the only device, and should be provided to you at no charge. All the other shenanigans just sort of evaporate.


----------



## howardlee2 (Sep 13, 2013)

jmpage2 said:


> I think it's actually easier the other way. You drop down to one multistream cablecard, which if you don't have any other Comcast gear is the only device, and should be provided to you at no charge. All the other shenanigans just sort of evaporate.


not sure i can get rid of all the comcast boxes as i have a slingbox attached to 1 of the boxes so my son can access our cable package (all the premium movie channels) and on demand. does the mini do comcast on demand (or roamio for that matter)?? he pays no cable tv charges this way other than high speed internet


----------



## howardlee2 (Sep 13, 2013)

and if i do get rid of everything what can i do with my series 3 with lifetime service?


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

howardlee2 said:


> not sure i can get rid of all the comcast boxes as i have a slingbox attached to 1 of the boxes so my son can access our cable package (all the premium movie channels) and on demand. does the mini do comcast on demand (or roamio for that matter)?? he pays no cable tv charges this way other than high speed internet


You should be able to hook the slingbox up to the mini as you can get composite video breakout cables for it.

On demand through mini and Roamio for Comcast is supported in some markets.

You can sell your lifetime S3 on eBay and it will cover the cost of a mini+lifetime.


----------



## howardlee2 (Sep 13, 2013)

is on demand supported in the chicago area?? damn comcast has not been kind to tivo or it's customers/stockholders over the years!


----------



## prisk (Nov 19, 2006)

howardlee2 said:


> PRISK,
> 
> i couldn't help but chuckle at your comments re;"scamcast"! i also have a series 3 tivo with 3 other boxes and they are insistent on charging me $9.95 for each cable card in the series 3! i tried to walk both the CSR and her supervisor through the mislogic of what they do to no avail. in the past i have gone through the Northbrook village cable dpt. and eventually received a credit on my account but they never fixed the billing issue. i liked your idea of going through the il att. gen office. did you just fill out a form and mail it in or call them? and what was the process like?
> 
> thanks, HL


Howardlee:
Go to the IL Atty. General site: http://illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/consumers/filecomplaint.html
There is a form you fill out and mail in. I got a surprisingly fast result. Basically, they forward the complaint to Comcast, in Philadelphia, which seems to take these things seriously. The Philadelphia office called me and fixed it immediately. Be sure to include screenshots of their web site quoting the $1.15 fee. Here is the funny thing: the lady in Philadelphia who called me to fix this issue was the same one who had been unable to fix it in the past.


----------



## prisk (Nov 19, 2006)

howardlee2 said:


> and if i do get rid of everything what can i do with my series 3 with lifetime service?


Sell it on ebay. Worth around $300-$350. That's what I plan to do with mine.


----------



## pillpusher84 (Jan 19, 2008)

prisk said:


> Howardlee:
> Go to the IL Atty. General site: http://illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/consumers/filecomplaint.html
> There is a form you fill out and mail in. I got a surprisingly fast result. Basically, they forward the complaint to Comcast, in Philadelphia, which seems to take these things seriously. The Philadelphia office called me and fixed it immediately. Be sure to include screenshots of their web site quoting the $1.15 fee. Here is the funny thing: the lady in Philadelphia who called me to fix this issue was the same one who had been unable to fix it in the past.


Sounds about right!


----------



## synch22 (Dec 30, 2003)

prisk said:


> Sell it on ebay. Worth around $300-$350. That's what I plan to do with mine.


Mine went for $250-270... Craig's.


----------

