# WeaKnees killed my S3



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I now have a $1,000 paperweight; thank you WeaKnees.

I had a 100% perfectly functioning S3. Two cablecards, and no problems. Working trouble-free for months. I decided to go the full WK 750GB upgrade. I paid for the HD, and the full service, where I send it in, and they install AND transfer all my programming. This was critical for me (and I was happy to pay extra for it) as I have 50-60 Wishlists, a couple dozen Season Passes, and about 15 shows I didn't want to lose, and hadn't watched yet. I FedEx'ed it overnight, and paid for them to do the same in return. I had my S3-less down time to 3 1/2 days. Not bad, eh?

I get a message from WK yesterday (Wed) that they had a problem copying my existing HD. It wouldn't copy, so they were going to install the 750Gb as is, and it was on its way back. They also made clear they weren't going to charge me for the failed service.

This is NOT what I wanted. Had I been given the option, I would have told them to keep the 750, put my 250 back in, seal it up & send it back. I would pay whatever shipping & service charges were involved. But it was already shipped back. Arrived today (Thur).

So now I am going to have to repeat guided setup, recreate 75+ SP & WL, and WTF about my existing shows? So I figure at some future point in time, I'll have to crack it open, put the 250/original HD back in, watch those shows, write down the SP/WL info, swap HD again, etc etc.

(Wait, it gets better... I mean worse)

But upon hooking it up, I can't get my cablecards to work. I've spent two hours with a very knowledgeable & friendly TWC rep, and we can't get bubka. It won't recognize them, no pairing, nada. Tried one at a time, both, neither, nothing. He suggests I bring them in to a TWC SC and swap them for two new ones. Oh boy, can't wait.

I thought I would put the original drive back in now, just to see if it would work. But WK didn't send the special Torx tools to swap them. Which they should, since I bought a new drive from them.

So now I have a paperweight, a doorstop. With no ability to swap drives, dead cablecards, lost programming. WeaKnees has helped me flush $500 down the drain, but more important to me, wasted my time and cost me my TiVo. I know it will come back some day, but I will have to spend HOURS to make that happen.

Obviously YMMV. But not all WeaKnees stories have happy endings.

PS: I am posting this here in the S3 forum since I would guess the great majority of WK upgrades are being done on S3 these days.

PSS: My S3 went out with 8.1.1 on it; came back with 8.0.1. Can't they at least put the latest version on it?


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

astrohip said:


> I thought I would put the original drive back in now, just to see if it would work. But WK didn't send the special Torx tools to swap them. Which they should, since I bought a new drive from them?


First of all, total bummer story. My condolences.

But, the torx tool should not be too difficult to find at any hardware store. A lot of cars have been using them for a while now. The old hdd will probably work with your cableCARDS. This is why I wanted to do my own image. Exactly why.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Have you even bothered calling them back to see what they'll do about it? Not once in your rant, do you mention contacting them again to see what they'll do to rectify the situation. You piss and moan about this, but you don't say you're doing anything about it. Why don't you grow a pair first instead of *****ing in a public forum? THEN, if they won't make it right, come back here.


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## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

He is fine to publish his story here, no matter what weaknees does, he has already suffered some pain. Hopefully there will be a follow up post saying that weaknees did something to hepl make up for their mistakes.
-Shaown


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

astrohip said:


> I now have a $1,000 paperweight; thank you WeaKnees.
> 
> I had a 100% perfectly functioning S3. Two cablecards, and no problems. Working trouble-free for months. I decided to go the full WK 750GB upgrade. I paid for the HD, and the full service, where I send it in, and they install AND transfer all my programming. This was critical for me (and I was happy to pay extra for it) as I have 50-60 Wishlists, a couple dozen Season Passes, and about 15 shows I didn't want to lose, and hadn't watched yet. I FedEx'ed it overnight, and paid for them to do the same in return. I had my S3-less down time to 3 1/2 days. Not bad, eh?
> 
> ...


The firmware changed? Do you have your original serial number written down. It sounds like they sent back a different unit. Possibly why your cable cards aren't working.

????


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

Bierboy said:


> Have you even bothered calling them back to see what they'll do about it? Not once in your rant, do you mention contacting them again to see what they'll do to rectify the situation. You piss and moan about this, but you don't say you're doing anything about it. Why don't you grow a pair first instead of *****ing in a public forum? THEN, if they won't make it right, come back here.


That wasn't very nice. Why are you so hostile? Do you work for Weakness?


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

Carlos_E said:


> The firmware changed? Do you have your original serial number written down. It sounds like they sent back a different unit. Possibly why your cable cards aren't working.
> 
> ????


I think you are confused, the software resides on the hard drive.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Carlos_E said:


> That wasn't very nice. Why are you so hostile? Do you work for Weakness?


Not even close....this guy comes in here to complain, yet hasn't made any effort to see if WeaKnees will respond to his issues. I have no problem with people posting complaints and issues IF they've been a pro-active consumer and made an effort to fix the problem. This guy hasn't.


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

maharg18 said:


> I think you are confused, the software resides on the hard drive.


Ahhh, understood.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Have you even bothered calling them back to see what they'll do about it? Not once in your rant, do you mention contacting them again to see what they'll do to rectify the situation. You piss and moan about this, but you don't say you're doing anything about it. Why don't you grow a pair first instead of *****ing in a public forum? THEN, if they won't make it right, come back here.


It's not about what they can do anymore. It's done. Everything that will need to be done to fix this will have to be done by ME. In their defense, I made it perfectly clear they do not intend to charge me for anything they were unable to do. I appreciate that, as some places would say "it's not our fault" and keep my money. My complaint is primarily not giving me a choice before returning it to me. Someone who pays extra for a complete transfer may have reasons for it, hence they should not just assume I want the new HD if it's gonna be empty. Perhaps they didn't want to lose the sale? Or maybe they just wanted to get it back quickly, knowing I was in a hurry, so they didn't wait. I also wanted to show that not every WK transaction is trouble free.

There are lots of ways to analyze this, but the bottom line is I am getting dumped on. I will lose time, my most precious commodity (see the other WK thread for why many of us pay for their service--to save time!). And yes, it was a "piss & moan".  I wanted to unload. I'm p*ssed. And I know I can get a Torx driver, which I will do tomorrow. But they could have sent one too.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Not even close....this guy comes in here to complain, yet hasn't made any effort to see if WeaKnees will respond to his issues. I have no problem with people posting complaints and issues IF they've been a pro-active consumer and made an effort to fix the problem. This guy hasn't.


Our posts crossed, but I'll smeek myself. There is no point in calling them, as there is nothing I can ask of them. I will have to get my unit working, by spending my precious time going down to TWC and swapping cablecards. Then setting my unit up again. None of which WK can do for me.

If and only if I decide to return the 750GB (unlikely if everything eventually works) will I have to contact them again. I will however email them to let them know they should ask what the customer wants to do if this happens again. Don't assume.

Was I the first person EVER to have a HD copy fail at WK? Rare? Common? Who knows...


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

- You're justified in venting about a non-working S3
- You're unjustified in expecting Torx tools
- You're unjustified in assuming the issue (non-working unit) doesn't lie with TWC's CableCards (in some markets CableCards DO need a fresh 'hard' update when the drive changes - not all S3 upgrades are flawless; and in your case, the image was NOT copied over, so CC reinit is essential). Perhaps the TWC person on the phone was just inept? Or perhaps the cards DID get fried (I trust you didn't ship the cards away to Weaknees and held on to them!?)
- The software version means bupkis. They dumped a working image on it, they just happened to have 8.0 instead of 8.1. Your uni will download the upgrade and do so overnight

All that said, it isn't impossible that weaknees DID ruin your S3 - but my money is on the CableCards being messed up.

So, much more politely than some others who posted before me, I have to respectfully question your unproven & overly dramatic subject line as well 

Good luck - hopefully it all works out soon! Sometimes CableCards need an overnight kick in the pants to 'light up'!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

ashu said:


> - You're justified in venting about a non-working S3
> - You're unjustified in expecting Torx tools
> - You're unjustified in assuming the issue (non-working unit) doesn't lie with TWC's CableCards


I agree. It has to be the cablecards; the odds the S3 is really dead are slim. But their actions led to this, and only my time can fix it. And venting is like sex with a stranger; it feels good when you first do it.  It's only later when you question your actions.



> So, much more politely than some others who posted before me, I have to respectfully question your unproven & overly dramatic subject line as well


Also agree. What should I name it? It needs to have impact, and help me vent my anger, but not be too maliciously malevolent.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

"Loud power tools, while fun to use - can be dangerous in untrained hands"

I speculate even MORE people would stop by to read a thread with that title. And it fits your criteria!


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## VanGoghLikesTivo (Jan 18, 2005)

This sounds awful. I was wondering if your S3 works properly receiving over the air signals if you remove the cablecards. If so, then it seems likely that the re-install will correct the problem with the Cablecards. I think its a little extreme to say your S3 is a paperweight. I also don't know why you would expect to get Torx screwdrivers.

With all that said, I think Weaknees should have handled the situation a lot better than they did. They should have given you the option to keep your 250 drive and cancel the whole deal. I imagine if you called them, they'd allow you to return everything and they would swap the 250 drive back in for you and refund your money for the 750 drive. Even if you keep the 750 drive, I think they ought to give you some sort of credit for all of the hassle you've had to go through.

Also, I thought TiVo had changed the software so that it can restore your season passes if you upgrade the drive. Maybe that feature isn't in the S3 software or not enabled on your system.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I have tried to change the title, to no avail. What am I doing wrong?

PS: Off to sleep, will try to dodge lawsuits from inappropriate thread subject until manana.


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## Scopeman (Oct 22, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Not even close....this guy comes in here to complain, yet hasn't made any effort to see if WeaKnees will respond to his issues. I have no problem with people posting complaints and issues IF they've been a pro-active consumer and made an effort to fix the problem. This guy hasn't.


People aren't allowed to post their stories/rants/complaints until after they have done some other series of steps first? FOr heaven's sake - this is just an internet forum, not some consumer-advocacy boot camp.

What next? No expressing opinions unless you can prove you've done the underlying research? It would get VERY quiet around here under that policy...

The OP has every right to rant about an expensive purchase/service that failed. He earns that right as soon as he paid for it - he doesn't have to call customer service before forming (and expressing) an opinion on whether his money was wasted.


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

pl1 said:


> The old hdd will probably work with your cableCARDS.


unlikely that they'll work without the cable company getting involved. As soon as the OP put the cards into the box w/ the new drive, they forgot about the old drive. As soon as you break the pairing, the cable company will have to reauthorize the cards to get copy protected channels.


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

ashu said:


> - You're justified in venting about a non-working S3
> - You're unjustified in expecting Torx tools


For the record, Weaknees DOES send the Torx tools for drive upgrades. I got them with both my Series 2 and Series 3 upgrades. Not that I needed them since I already had a set of Torx bits for my power screwdriver. I figure since WK did the drive upgrade for him they probably didn't see a reason to send the tools.

I do sympathize with the OP on this (and Bierboy's post was overly hostile and uncalled for). It does make me glad I decided to install the 750GB drive first thing when I got my S3.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Scopeman said:


> People aren't allowed to post their stories/rants/complaints until after they have done some other series of steps first? FOr heaven's sake - this is just an internet forum, not some consumer-advocacy boot camp.


Not at all, but it's a little unfair to vent like the before even calling the company to see what they'll do to make things right. At a minimum they can send him the tools he needs to swap hard drives. If he makes them aware of how badly things have been hosed, they may even do something else (partial refund, store credit) to make things right. You never know unless you ask. All that being said, I think it's a cablecard/TW issue. He got lucky the first time around getting things set up by someone with a clue, and unlucky to get someone this time around that doesn't know what they are doing.



Scopeman said:


> What next? No expressing opinions unless you can prove you've done the underlying research? It would get VERY quiet around here under that policy...


You mean some people want to avoid completely uninformed/incorrect opinions from being bandied about like they are facts? I can't imagine why raising the level of discourse to "people know what they heck they are talking about" is a bad thing. Nor can I imagine how this relates to the OP.



Scopeman said:


> The OP has every right to rant about an expensive purchase/service that failed. He earns that right as soon as he paid for it - he doesn't have to call customer service before forming (and expressing) an opinion on whether his money was wasted.


And we have every right to suggest ways that he can make the situation better, rather then just come in here insulting people.

Astrohip, that's a really crappy situation - even though you don't think that Weaknees can do anything at this point, it still wouldn't hurt to call them up, ask for the screwdriver, and tell them what all has happened (and maybe find out why they had trouble copying your drive, that's usually a pretty straightforward process). You never know what they may be able to do.


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## hornblowercat (Mar 4, 2007)

astrohip said:


> PSS: My S3 went out with 8.1.1 on it; came back with 8.0.1. Can't they at least put the latest version on it?


That will happen once your S3 calls in, it's not up to them to put that back in for you.

When the OP discovered the problem, his first reaction was to rant. As a professional therapist, I can assure you this was healthy for him to do.

The next step is to find a solution. Hopefully today he will post a follow up on what Weaknees said they will do to help him. However I did enjoy Bierboy's post. This place has gotten too quiet lately.

OK, so I'm not a therapist. But I dated one once and trust me I had a much better grip on reality then she did.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

Roderigo said:


> unlikely that they'll work without the cable company getting involved. As soon as the OP put the cards into the box w/ the new drive, they forgot about the old drive. As soon as you break the pairing, the cable company will have to reauthorize the cards to get copy protected channels.


Oh, OK, so as long as you pull the orig. hdd, image (or dd) it, and replace it with the new drive, you are OK. But if you connect the coax with the new drive first, it breaks the pairing at the cableco? Is that the correct way to understand it?


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

hornblowercat said:


> As a professional therapist, I can assure you this was healthy for him to do. OK, so I'm not a therapist....


...but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

astrohip said:


> PS: I am posting this here in the S3 forum since I would guess the great majority of WK upgrades are being done on S3 these days.


Why not post it in the weaknees forums? Unless I missed your post, I do not see it there. There is online support there as well.

Edit: (I would provide the URL but I guess a competitor's web address is forbidden or something.)


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

hornblowercat said:


> ....When the OP discovered the problem, his first reaction was to rant. ...


And therein lies his problem. A rational person would have first contacted the company responsible for the problem, gather as much information as possible, then post. His reaction is akin to a child's reaction when someone takes his favorite toy.


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

Bierboy said:


> And therein lies his problem. A rational person would have first contacted the company responsible for the problem, gather as much information as possible, then post. His reaction is akin to a child's reaction when someone takes his favorite toy.





Bierboy said:


> Have you even bothered calling them back to see what they'll do about it? Not once in your rant, do you mention contacting them again to see what they'll do to rectify the situation. You piss and moan about this, but you don't say you're doing anything about it. Why don't you grow a pair first instead of *****ing in a public forum? THEN, if they won't make it right, come back here.


Your first reaction doesn't sound much different than his.


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## rdrrepair (Nov 24, 2006)

hornblowercat said:


> That will happen once your S3 calls in, it's not up to them to put that back in for you.


Couldn't they have allowed the TiVo to call in and get 8.1 on his HD? It sounds to me like all they did was slap a HD in and then boxed it back up. I would think that they should have forced the call and gotten the update... sounds like they didn't want to do the extra steps to get it updated - more time spent = less profit margin. 


hornblowercat said:


> When the OP discovered the problem, his first reaction was to rant. As a professional therapist, I can assure you this was healthy for him to do.


Being a small business owner I would rather deal with someone "One on One" then to be smirked in such a public fashion.

Do good and no-one hears about it - do bad and everyone knows.

I would think at the very least a call should have been made to try to get some satisfaction BEFORE posting a rant... While it may be healthy for him to vent "THAT SECOND" it should also teach someone a little self control.

Vent if there is really a 1000.00 paperweight. I know if I plugged my unit in and it started to smoke and catch fire I would loose all control - he has lost some recordings and some time... I hope for his sake he has a longer fuse then 1 second.


hornblowercat said:


> The next step is to find a solution. Hopefully today he will post a follow up on what Weaknees said they will do to help him.


 I too would like to know what Weaknees has done or didn't do for him -- after he calls -- I was thinking about sending in my HD only to have them transfer my wifes shows to a larger drive, she's a slow watcher. If this is a bigger problem transfering S3's then S2's HD recordings I would like to know.

If my wifes recording do not transfer I will ask them to send my HD and money back and not get there upgrade, at the very least this post has enlightend me on another senario.


hornblowercat said:


> OK, so I'm not a therapist. But I dated one once and trust me I had a much better grip on reality then she did.


So true...


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Ok, I've had 12 hours to sleep on it (well, 6 hrs sleep, 6 hours listening to my wife tell me to just shut up, it's only TV--how DARE she?).

(trying to answer a variety of posts above...)

Yes, it was a rant. And as I have said more than once, the reason I haven't called WK is because there is nothing I expect from them at this point, nor is there anything they can do. It really isn't about the money; I paid top dollar for the "concierge" service. Yes, I suppose I will call them at some point, and they may go overboard to help (refunds, advice, etc). But as I keep stating, nothing they can do will keep me from having to spend a fair amount of time working to restore my S3.

Let's say they *had* copied my old HD over, but it still wouldn't work with the cablecards upon return (a likely poss.). I would still be upset, but mostly at myself & TW at that point. So my anger at WK is only half deserved. But since they started it (wow, that sounds mature), they get their just rewards.

I didn't know there was a WK forum. I may go there, post, and see what advice I get.

This thread may also serve notice to others like me that the upgrade process is not foolproof. And I suppose if I called WK, they may learn how to better handle problems like this. But that ain't my job. In today's world, you often only get one shot at a customer. And please don't let capn-vid from the other WK thread hear about this problem--he'll really give me the "I told you so".

Here is what I am going to do. Go to Home Depot, pick up whatever tools I need (no time for WK to ship them to me). Tonight I will replace the 750 with my original HD. See if I can get the unit working with the cablecards. If so, leave it as is for a while, and switch over to the 750 at my convenience. If not, I'll have to swap cablecards at the TW service center tomorrow (have you ever visited a walk-in service center on a Sat? like an airport terminal at Thanksgiving). If I swap cards, I may put the 750 back in first, making note of my WL & SP before I remove the 250 again. Oh, and try to watch a few of the critical shows on the 250.

Thanks everyone for your feedback, good or bad, deserved or not.  I'm not sure what's worse, one of those complaint threads where the OP has a post count of 2, and never returns, or this one, where you can't get rid of the OP.  

PS: Bierboy--at least I didn't mention Class Action. So I'm not a total idiot (just a partial one?).


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

One more Time Warner note (and mostly OT). The first time I called, thinking I only had to request a "ping" to get the cards alive, I had the usual CSR--friendly but useless. When I realized a couple hours later I had a real problem, I called back and was escalated to a cablecard specialist. This was the same group I called when I first installed the cc a few months ago; they help you get going with new cc. But I had lost their direct #, so I had to go thru CS.

I got a really sharp young guy. When I mentioned there were two cc, he said, "Oh, you must have a TiVo then." So he's sharp enough to know a TiVo is one of the few devices requiring two cc.

He told me the cards were definitely active on their end. They showed authorized & alive. He said sometimes when a card is paired to a device, and that device goes inactive for a while or has any kind of change to it, the cc will lose its (internal) authorization, and nothing they can do will reset it. When this happens one has to swap the cc out. He said it doesn't happen often, but isn't uncommon. I said, "If you turn your TV off for a few days, the cc can die?". He said no, most devices still have power running thru them when they are off, so that's not a problem. But if you unplug your TV for a few days, sometimes they die. Sometimes not. There is no pattern. Cablecards are just a PITA.

He also said he loves TiVo and how they work. He told me they were coming out with their own unit that used TiVo software (which of course all of us here know about--the infamous Comcast TiVo). He started rattling off model numbers; the 5100 and the 6200HD and yada yada. He seemed pretty pumped about them.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled programming . . .


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

when you say "no paring", does that mean you can't get to the pairing screen at all? or you can't get the cards to work in the pairing screen?

I know that when HDD in a S3 is changed, the Data field in the pairing screen is different. If you cable co is keeping track of that info in their authorization, then they need to update it.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

astrohip said:


> He said sometimes when a card is paired to a device, and that device goes inactive for a while or has any kind of change to it, the cc will lose its (internal) authorization, and nothing they can do will reset it. When this happens one has to swap the cc out. He said it doesn't happen often, but isn't uncommon. I said, "If you turn your TV off for a few days, the cc can die?". He said no, most devices still have power running thru them when they are off, so that's not a problem. But if you unplug your TV for a few days, sometimes they die. Sometimes not. There is no pattern. Cablecards are just a PITA.
> .


Interesting & good to know. Thanks for the feedback.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

yunlin12 said:


> when you say "no paring", does that mean you can't get to the pairing screen at all?.


at the cableco. They are pairing the cableCARD with the machine. If you take the cableCARD and move it to another machine, the cableco does not recognize it. (In our case, machine is hdd. So, if you image or copy your hdd, and put in the new hdd, it will work fine.)


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

pl1 said:


> at the cableco. They are pairing the cableCARD with the machine. If you take the cableCARD and move it to another machine, the cableco does not recognize it. (In our case, machine is hdd. So, if you image or copy your hdd, and put in the new hdd, it will work fine.)


That doesn't make sense. The CableCARD pairing info is in hardware on the board, not the hard drive.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sfhub said:


> That doesn't make sense. The CableCARD pairing info is in hardware on the board, not the hard drive.


It is on the hdd. AAMOF, a clear and delete will reset the pairing information.

http://techdigs.net/content/view/46/42/#ccconfig

The Clear & Delete everything menu resets the TiVo Series 3 back to factory settings. If you have installed and configured CableCARDs, your CableCARD will need to be re-registered with the Cable company. Most Cable providers can and will do this over the phone. But, be aware that there can be problems. For example, as of this writing, the system used by Comcast to manage CableCARD registrations inadvertently stores the old Data value in an area they call the sidecar. When changing the Data value on an existing card, even after a new value is put in this field, the field may revert to the old value automatically without their knowledge. Check before you hang up because if this error occurs, you will not receive your premium channels. It turns out, Comcast has to essentially exit the screen and re-enter, and then re-input the Data value. Bottomline, if you are doing this with your cable provider, have them double check the Data value after exiting the window on their system to be sure you both have the same number.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> And therein lies his problem. A rational person would have first contacted the company responsible for the problem, gather as much information as possible, then post. His reaction is akin to a child's reaction when someone takes his favorite toy.


Bierboy, stop whining about the thread and do something productive with your time.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

pl1 said:


> It is on the hdd. AAMOF, a clear and delete will reset the pairing information.


I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know, but how do you know it's on the hard disk?

A Clear and Delete definitely resets everything, and the cablecable will need to be re-paired after that. But that's a matter of sending a signal to the cablecard slot chip (or whatever), not a hard disk function.

My suspicion remains that those people who had to get re-paired after a hard disk exchange actually did a Clear and Delete either explicitly or implicitly; those people who did not do a Clear and Delete, did not have to get their cablecards re-authorized.

Thanks for the link. I had encountered that quite useful page previously but couldn't remember where it was! Now bookmarked.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

CrispyCritter said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know, but how do you know it's on the hard disk?.


Because, before I upgraded my hdd, I had read the warnings. That if you did your own image or dd, and restored to your new hdd, you would have no problem. That is true. I did the upgrade after having my cableCARDS installed and paired to Comcast. The warning stated that if you bought a drive or an instacake, you would need to get the cableCARDs reauthorized. Now, I can't put my finger on where I read this. So, I will concede, I do not know this to be a fact.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> His reaction is akin to a child's reaction when someone takes his favorite toy.


Exactly. After all, we are talking about our TIVOs, aren't we? 

1) TiVo
2) dog (Jack Russell)
3) HD TV
4) wife (tie w/)
BMW 550i
6) kids
7) TCF forums


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

The last time I opened a Tivo, it used hex screws, not torx. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_10664 and linked articles for an explanation of the difference.) Has this been changed?

If you lack a set of hex keys (though, they're not hard to get), you may be able to use a very small flat-head screwdriver instead.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

pl1 said:


> Because, before I upgraded my hdd, I had read the warnings. That if you did your own image or dd, and restored to your new hdd, you would have no problem. That is true. I did the upgrade after having my cableCARDS installed and paired to Comcast. The warning stated that if you bought a drive or an instacake, you would need to get the cableCARDs reauthorized. Now, I can't put my finger on where I read this.


All that could be true and it still doesn't mean that it is on the hard disk. It could be that TiVo resets the cablecard slot as part of the initial "Welcome to TiVo" script meant for the first use of the TiVo. To me, that seems like a reasonable thing for TiVo to do. As I recall, you have to go through that first use script when you use instantcake, but not when you copy your own disk (I've never bought a pre-made disk). So that could be an explanation that doesn't involve the hard disk.

As I said, I don't know what happens. This has been an open question for quite a while now, and I'm just trying to work through the possibilities.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

wmcbrine said:


> The last time I opened a Tivo, it used hex screws, not torx. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_10664 and linked articles for an explanation of the difference.) Has this been changed?If you lack a set of hex keys (though, they're not hard to get), you may be able to use a very small flat-head screwdriver instead.


All of the ones I've opened (Includes S1, AT&T S2, S2, S3 all SA's) have used a torx driver. You "can" use a hex key in some case if you can find the right size, I understand, although I have not tried this.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

pl1 said:


> It is on the hdd. AAMOF, a clear and delete will reset the pairing information.


So I read through the link and it appears part of the pairing info is fixed and on the board (Host) and part of it is dynamic/generated and stored in non-volatile memory, flash or HDD, (Data) and it is the Data portion that could change if you reset or use a different image.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sfhub said:


> So I read through the link and it appears part of the pairing info is fixed and on the board (Host) and part of it is dynamic/generated and on the HDD (Data) and it is the Data portion that could change if you reset or use a different image.


Well, good investigation on your part. I was researching other places myself and not coming up with much of anything. So, the *safest strategy (to not have to call the cableco)* is to image or copy your own working hdd and upgrade it yourself. According to weaknees, a high percentage of their customers have no problem just upgrading with their drive.

To quote (at weaknees):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are indeed aware that some (and for better or worse, very few) people are having issues like yours. Some have been able to solve the problem by calling their cable companies and asking for a cold hit.

Given how infrequent the problem is, we don't yet know for sure what is happening with some cable companies. There is nothing about the software that we are sending that is causing the problem. For example, we use the same software on fully-upgraded units that we sell, yet no customer of a complete unit has had the problem.

-AND-

From what we understand, Comcast marries each CableCARD to a specific host id. Each card slot in the TiVo has a separate ID. If you swap the cards around, certain channels might not work properly until the cards are re-paired (re-married) even if the cards have been put back into the correct slot. Similarly, if for some reason the host id changes, then the card has to be married back up to the new host id.

In order to re-marry the cards, the cable company has to send out another signal. In order to re-marry the card, Comcast actually has to have the new data number that is visible in the "CableCARD(tm) Pairing" screen, and that would need to be entered into their records.

If you have trouble, you could simply tell the cable company that the S3 had to be repaired so it would need to have the cards "paired up" (married) again.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sfhub said:


> So I read through the link and it appears part of the pairing info is fixed and on the board (Host) and part of it is dynamic/generated and on the HDD (Data) and it is the Data portion that could change if you reset or use a different image.


Is this what you are referring to?

CableCARD(tm): This ID is linked to the CableCARD, however most Cable companies don't use this value and instead use the UnitAddress.

Host: Host is the ID that is linked to the specific host device, such as your TiVo. It does not change unless you change to a different TiVo.

Data: This is a dynamic ID that is generated during a host reset or new CableCARD installation. It's the key piece of data that will change if reset your TiVo, move cards around or make other substantial changes. If the value changes, the Cable company must update their Data field value to match it.

UnitAddress: The unit address is the ID that is linked to the CableCARD. It does not change, unless you change CableCARDs.

At a minimum, it's crucial that the Cable company has the correct values for Host, Data and UnitAddress.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

pl1 said:


> Is this what you are referring to?


Yup.

The installer called in Host and Data over his walkie talkie to do the pairing.

The Data portion does look like it is generated when comparing the 2 slots.

It does look like if either component of the tuple, Host (fixed) or Data (generated) change, the pairing is busted.

My guy never called in the Unit Address but he did call in the Serial # of the CableCARD itself, so I assume they have some table somewhere that maps the Serial # to the Unit Address on their end.

Just an aside, but in the past Comcast in my area was not even pairing the CableCARDs, which could explain inconsistent behavior with S3 upgrades. There was a head-end update from Motorola that required the pairing info and Comcast contracted UEI to call past CableCARD installs and get the Host/Data info from the users over the phone.

So the pairing for my install apparently is (Host, Data, UnitAddress) as the link mentioned.

If I swap CableCARDs from one slot to the other, the 3-tuple is broken (UnitAddress).

If I reset the TiVo to factory, the 3-tuple is broken (Data)

If I move my HDD and CableCARD to another S3 the 3-tuple is broken (Host)

If my S3 and CableCARDs were never paired by Comcast in the beginning, I could probably do a lot of stuff to the HDD or even move the CableCARD to another device or swap slots and it would still work.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sfhub said:


> It does look like if either component of the tuple, Host (fixed) or Data (generated) change, the pairing is busted.


Interesting. Also, I had no idea what a tuple was until I googled it. Learn something every day.


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## GmanTiVo (Mar 9, 2003)

Thank you for the heads-up on your problem with the S3 upgrade.

I value my time and fully understand the crux of the matter:

If one pays for an important specific and perhaps deal breaking service ( in this case a transfer all programming from the existing HD) and doesn't receive such service nor has the opportunity to discuss before hand of the possible failure of such service (no transfer) to evaluate alternative options, it is a sham, plain and simple.

Of course miscommunications of priorities make this a tough one to call:
If the transfer of HD programming was specified as top/most important to the buyer, then the upgrade while most important to the seller (WeaKnees) should have been halted and or reversed upon the testing that the programming was missing.

I feel for the OP, that what was most important didn't come to fruition, matter of fact, the precious little time he has now is spent on resolving exactly what he didn't want to do nor have happen in the first place.  

btw, doesn't the replaced HD come back with the TiVo?


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

parzec said:


> Bierboy, stop whining about the thread and do something productive with your time.


As opposed to your whining about someone whining and adding even less content to the thread? 

pl1, thanks for the informative link and the good discussion, I'm a heck of a lot smarter for it. I've been thinking about upgrading my hard drive (I keep going back and forth between upgrading and waiting for ESATA), so this is good info to have.

Astro, re: one of your earlier comments, the difference between you and a first time poster that rants and runs, is that you stuck it out and turned things into a valuable technical discussion.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

GoHokies! said:


> pl1, thanks for the informative link and the good discussion, I'm a heck of a lot smarter for it. I've been thinking about upgrading my hard drive (I keep going back and forth between upgrading and waiting for ESATA), so this is good info to have)


Don't forget Sfhub! He got to the real bottom of it all! By pushing me in to a corner and asking if I REALLY knew this for a fact. I actually skimmed past the meat of the matter in the link I provided.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

sfhub said:


> So I read through the link and it appears part of the pairing info is fixed and on the board (Host) and part of it is dynamic/generated and on the HDD (Data) and it is the Data portion that could change if you reset or use a different image.


I'm sorry, I still don't see this on the link. Yes, the Data field is kept separate, but I see no indications that it's on the hard disk. The article talks about the "sidecar" but wherever that is, it's not the hard disk (cablecards cannot assume they have access to the hard disk, since they are designed for no-disk equipment).


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

GmanTiVo said:


> Of course miscommunications of priorities make this a tough one to call:
> 
> btw, doesn't the replaced HD come back with the TiVo?


Very valid point, and one I mentioned a few posts up. They knew I wanted it back quick, so in their effort to do so, may have discounted the "HD wouldn't transfer" problem. OTOH, they also knew that the transfer was important. So which path do they follow? The answer of course, is to ask me.

And yes, my 250GB original HD was in the box. I bought my Torx screwdriver today (at Radio Shack, Home Depot didn't have them), and plan on swapping drives tonight. Fingers crossed . . .


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

CrispyCritter said:


> I'm sorry, I still don't see this on the link. Yes, the Data field is kept separate, but I see no indications that it's on the hard disk. The article talks about the "sidecar" but wherever that is, it's not the hard disk (cablecards cannot assume they have access to the hard disk, since they are designed for no-disk equipment).


sidecar is part of the cable operator's user management application. I think that application bug is orthogonal to this issue.

Once we know there is a portion that is a dynamic generated value, we can see what situations cause it to be (re)generated.

It has to be stored somewhere that can be dynamically written to, EEPROM, flash card, HDD or any other storage device.

This is unlike the Host and Unit Address which appear to be designed as semi-permanent IDs.

One experiment someone can perform if they like is to use a separate image on their paired S3 and see if the Data portion changes. Then swap back the original disc and see if the Data portion returns to previous value.

It is possible an image swap causes a regenerate event for the Data portion leading one to believe the data is on the HDD when it is actually stored somewhere else, just triggered by image change. It is also possible there is some flexibility in design for the storage of the Data portion and the specs just say "device supplied generated data" and the implementation can choose where to store it.

Does someone have a link to the CableCARD spec so we can read up on it?


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

I haven't found the application note that describes how "Data" ID should be generated or stored but here is more info on the various MMI data:

Cable Card ID = AAA-BBB-CCC-DDD-c
- AAA = the manufacturer ID, Motorola was assigned 000
- BBB-CCC-DDD = the 9 least significant digits of the unit address (when in decimal format)
- c = the Luhn digit, which is a checksum defined by the OpenCable Copy protection specificationHost ID = EEE-FFF-GGG-HHH-c

Host ID = EEE-FFF-GGG-HHH-c
- EEE = This is the manufacturer ID
- FFF-GGG-HHH = A unique value assigned to a Host device
- c = the Luhn digit, which is a checksum defined by the OpenCable Copy protection specification

Data Field
- Unique randomly generated value created during the CableCARD/Host pairing process. This value is a private security data authenticator utilized by the Motorola Conditional Access System in performance of the functions specified in the CableCARD Copy Protection System specification.

Unit Address = III-JJJJJ-KKKKK-LLL
- Unique, 16 character, decimal value representing the unit address of the CableCARD module with the LLL representing the checksum

I looked at SCTE 41 and the section on MMI only had reference to CableCARD ID and Host ID. The Motorola note mentions the Data field is something utilized by the Motorola Conditional Access System. Wonder if that field is only for Motorola-based systems?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

GoHokies! said:


> ... Astrohip, that's a really crappy situation - even though you don't think that Weaknees can do anything at this point, it still wouldn't hurt to call them up, ask for the screwdriver, and tell them what all has happened (and maybe find out why they had trouble copying your drive, that's usually a pretty straightforward process). You never know what they may be able to do. ...


In my dealings with Weaknees, I have found them to be very responsive, and I agree with GoHokies!. Give them a call as they are very easy to work with, reasonable people, and have excellent service.

Sorry to hear about your troubles


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

So reading through the rest of SCTE 41 the generated data which somewhat matches the characteristics of "Data" is the AuthKey that is generated during initial connection.


> Authentication Key generation need occur only once (per Host-POD pair) when the POD and Host are first connected. The resulting AuthKeyP and AuthKeyH values and Diffie-Hellman Secret Key (DHKey) then need to be stored in non-volatile memory, and are used to generate transmission keys later in the key derivation step.


It just specifies "need to be stored in non-volatile memory" which could be anything from CMOS, flash memory, to hard drives. So I guess that doesn't help explain where this generated data is stored.

I did also find out that the AuthKey is stored on the POD (CableCARD) and AuthKey from Host and POD are compared at startup. If they match the full binding need not occur. If they don't match (presumably if you stick the POD in a new device or different slot) then the full binding and registration happens and you'll need to call in the Host/Data again.

Also apparently for 2-way capable hosts, the pairing can theoretically all be done out of band, automatically with no separate phone call from customer.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sfhub said:


> It is possible an image swap causes a regenerate event for the Data portion leading one to believe the data is on the HDD when it is actually stored somewhere else, just triggered by image change. It is also possible there is some flexibility in design for the storage of the Data portion and the specs just say "device supplied generated data" and the implementation can choose where to store it.


But one thing that is a fact is that if you change the hdd out, you lose the pairing at the headend. Correct? So, doesn't that in itself prove that the "dynamic ID" is written to the hdd? If it was anywhere else, it would still exist. Even if it is picked up on the boot up sequence to flash memory, it would need to be in the software.

I was just reading another interesting article regarding cableCARDs. It mentions how Vista supports cableCARDs. And then it mentions that the goal is to eliminate cableCARDS in favor of software, DCAS. Check this article out, Sfhub.

http://arstechnica.com/guides/other/cablecard.ars/2

Also, I guess this is not the first time these two links have been discussed:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/printthread.php?t=323639&page=2&pp=30

I got there by searching on Tivo "dynamic id"


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

CrispyCritter said:


> I'm sorry, I still don't see this on the link. Yes, the Data field is kept separate, but I see no indications that it's on the hard disk. The article talks about the "sidecar" but wherever that is, it's not the hard disk (cablecards cannot assume they have access to the hard disk, since they are designed for no-disk equipment).


Ok, read this article regarding the cableCARD. http://arstechnica.com/guides/other/cablecard.ars If the cableCARD is in a TV, it does not have to go through the same kind of verifications process as a TiVo like device. Edit:Meaning it is possible that the additional security process may require software from the hdd?

--------

The demodulated, encrypted signal passes from the TV into the CableCARD, which first checks the EMMs to see if the user is authorized to view that channel (basic channels may not require an EMM). If so, the card then pulls something called an "Entitlement Control Message" (ECM) out of the in-band signal. The ECM is the key needed to decrypt the channel, and it is sent along the line every 100 ms in order to eliminate the delay often found when switching channels on older systems. The ECM is also rotated every few seconds in order to discourage hacking. The ECM is itself encrypted by a proprietary mechanism built into both the headend and the CableCARD, so when a CableCARD attempts to descramble a channel, it first decrypts the ECM, which then allows it to decrypt the MPEG-2 stream. (Special thanks to The Diffusion Group and their report on digital cable for helping clarify some of this information.)

So far, so good, right? Now we have a clear MPEG-2 stream ready for viewingwhich is why the CableCARD re-encrypts the signal using the keys that it has already exchanged with the host device. This is to prevent hackers from using the CableCARD to decrypt the signal and then outputting it in a clear and easy-to-capture format. The newly-encrypted signal is passed to the host, which (if it's a TV) decrypts the signal using the shared key it has generated with the CableCARD and displays the stream for your viewing pleasure.

"But what about a DVR?" you ask, and with good reason. The cable company did not build all this encryption into the product only to see it thwarted by a digital video recorder that outputs an unencrypted HDTV signal to the television. Therefore, if the host device is not a display device, it is required to encrypt the video stream yet again for transmission to another device. This last type of encryption is "link encryption" such as HDCP, which Vista will also require between the PC and the monitor in order to display protected content in its full high resolution glory. It is likely that other operating systems (e.g., Mac OS X) as well as consumer electronics will use HDCP too.

Holy encryption, Batman! If we're using a DVR, the stream has now been encrypted three separate times, providing almost true end-to-end encryption. It's not complete, of course, because at some point a signal must be unscrambled (so that you can watch it), and most TVs have a slate of outputs. How to plug the final hole? CableCARD does this by sending Copy Control Information from the card to the host, which is required to abide by it (unless the maker wants its CableCARD license pulled). The system handles both digital and analog content, in both cases using a two-bit code (00, 01, 10, or 11). The CableCARD communicates directly with the CPU of the host device and lets it know what restrictions are in place for the current content. The digital side of things can prevent content from being copied altogether, if this is what the cable company wants, or it can allow a single copy, or even unlimited copying. The analog system is similar, but can dictate what level of Macrovision "split burst" protection must be applied to analog outputs.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sfhub said:


> Does someone have a link to the CableCARD spec so we can read up on it?


Is this what you are looking for? There are so many spec sheets I'm not sure which is which.

http://www.cablelabs.com/specifications/archives/


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## Gene Plantz (Dec 31, 1999)

rdrrepair said:


> Couldn't they have allowed the TiVo to call in and get 8.1 on his HD? It sounds to me like all they did was slap a HD in and then boxed it back up. I would think that they should have forced the call and gotten the update... sounds like they didn't want to do the extra steps to get it updated - more time spent = less profit margin.
> .


consider all the details involved in doing this. This would need to run guided setup and enter all the appropriate info. They may not know his zipcode, areacodes and cable system line-ups. I guess they could enter info based upon their own location just to get the downloaded update but still it is a good amount of work.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

pl1 said:


> But one thing that is a fact is that if you change the hdd out, you lose the pairing at the headend. Correct?


No! Nobody has proven that is necessarily true. Some people who change disks have lost their pairing, but nobody has shown that it's the change of disk that is at fault as opposed to other factors (eg, running the initial TiVo setup script, as I suggested.) Evidence might be if someone had used the original disk, then upgraded to a new disk (and had to have things re-paired), and then tried the original disk again. If they do things carefully, and the Data field is not stored on the disk, then it should not need re-pairing. If the data field is stored on the disk, it will need re-pairing. As far as I know, nobody has done this experiment.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

pl1 said:


> But one thing that is a fact is that if you change the hdd out, you lose the pairing at the headend. Correct? So, doesn't that in itself prove that the "dynamic ID" is written to the hdd? If it was anywhere else, it would still exist. Even if it is picked up on the boot up sequence to flash memory, it would need to be in the software.


I don't know if that is a fact. I think if you switch the HDD the pairing is probably lost, but the doesn't necessarily tell you where the pairing is stored, just describes an event that can cause the pairing to be lost.

I think it is a fact that there are some keys/data that are dynamically generated and stored in non-volatile memory. That non-volatile memory could take different forms so unless somebody knows the design better and can say for sure, there probably needs to be some experiments to figure out what is going on.

Let me give you an example of how the behavior when changing an HDD could lead one to the wrong conclusion.

Let's say the "Data" portion of the pairing is stored in some hardware non-volatile memory on the board.

Let's say you switch out the HDD.

Let's say CableLABs determined such an event should be considered questionable and they required the design of TiVo to check the TSN on the board to match a TSN that was recorded on HDD. If the TSNs don't match, then force the reset of of CableCARD slot and any saved auth info.

In that case, the pairing information could really be stored on the hardware board, but the reset of that data could be triggered by HDD/Image change.

On the other hand, it could also be stored on HDD and the behavior would still fit the observed behavior.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

CrispyCritter said:


> No! Nobody has proven that is necessarily true. Some people who change disks have lost their pairing, but nobody has shown that it's the change of disk that is at fault as opposed to other factors (eg, running the initial TiVo setup script, as I suggested.) Evidence might be if someone had used the original disk, then upgraded to a new disk (and had to have things re-paired), and then tried the original disk again. If they do things carefully, and the Data field is not stored on the disk, then it should not need re-pairing. If the data field is stored on the disk, it will need re-pairing. As far as I know, nobody has done this experiment.


I see. Or conversley, a clear and delete on the upgraded disk, put back in the original disk, and it works. The best one to test that right now is Astrohip. If his orig disk works, but the upgrade did not, it seems that would also prove it is the hdd. Edit:Oops, looks like I didn't pay attention close enough to what you said. He would have to get the new drive paired first, right? Then try the old drive.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

The news only gets worse...

I decided to put the original 250GB HD back in, so I can watch my shows & copy down all my SP & WL. Open the S3, swapped HD. Pretty easy, took me about 20 minutes being extra cautious.

Plug it in & fire it up. Uh oh. It's telling me I need to go thru guided setup. WTF? I knew I might not have cable access since the cc weren't working, but at least I could get my info copied down & watch shows.  

MY OLD HD IS EMPTY. Nothing, nada, bupkes. After going thru guided setup, the Now Playing, To-Do, everything...empty. THEY LOST MY ENTIRE TIVO HD. So now the thread title really is correct.

So I shut it down, and swap back to the new 750GB HD. As long as I got batsh*t, I might as well use the big disk. This time it takes about 10 minutes to swap.

Hook everything up, and go thru guided setup. I'm thinking, didn't I already do GS on this HD? As I proceed, I realize it is seeing the cc, so it wants to do a fresh GS. Fine with me!

GS goes smooth, and everything works. All my channels, HD, pay (HBO, etc), everything. I have no idea why, but the cc now work perfectly.

But I have lost everything! All my recorded shows, all my Season Passes, but most critical, all my WishLists. I had 50-60 WL, accumulated over years. Every time something grabbed my fancy, a new interest, an actor I liked, whatever, I created a WL (and of course deleted some over time). I had some WL so obscure, they only had a hit once or twice a year. I will never be able to remember or recreate all of them. Even when I migrated from the S2 to S3, I had them both hooked up to different inputs, and flipped back & forth, copying SP & WL. And some SP can't be set until the show starts up again. 

Is it the end of the world? Of course not. But it is very very painful. And it was unnecessary. Had I not paid WK to do this, it would not have happened.

This can not be blamed on anything but WeaKnees. It was perfect when I shipped it, with no signs of any impending HD failure (it's only 4 months old). It obviously wasn't damaged in transit; it still works. And I refuse to believe it just happened to give up the ghost at the very moment in time I sent it to them. They screwed up somehow.

I will send them an email, asking for a refund, since they bolloxed this entire order. And I'm not after money; I've stated repeatedly I didn't care about them making amends. But that was before I knew they lost my entire HD, and my 4 year history of what I do with TiVo.

So the Thread Title stands: WEAKNEES KILLED MY S3.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Youch. Sounds like they confused an sda with an sdb during the upgrade. Perhaps not too many people request the 'full transfer' upgrade? Still - unforgivable.

No backup/digital photos etc of the Sps/WLs?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

pl1 said:


> All of the ones I've opened (Includes S1, AT&T S2, S2, S3 all SA's) have used a torx driver.


Damn, you're right of course. I misremembered. Sorry. 



> _You "can" use a hex key in some case if you can find the right size, I understand, although I have not tried this._


Yeah, it works; I've only used hex keys on them (hence my confusion). Probably I should get some proper Torx tools...


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## hornblowercat (Mar 4, 2007)

astrohip said:


> The news only gets worse...
> 
> I will send them an email, asking for a refund, since they bolloxed this entire order. And I'm not after money; I've stated repeatedly I didn't care about them making amends. But that was before I knew they lost my entire HD, and my 4 year history of what I do with TiVo.
> 
> So the Thread Title stands: WEAKNEES KILLED MY S3.


I'd expect you to get that refund about two days after hell freezes over. I don't think anybody who installs or sells a hard drive would give you a refund. They may offer you a replacement, which at this point you certainly don't want. And even if they do agree to a refund you would have to send them back your hard drive at least.

But you are up and running and that is good news.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

astrohip said:


> But I have lost everything! All my recorded shows, all my Season Passes, but most critical, all my WishLists. I had 50-60 WL, accumulated over years. Every time something grabbed my fancy, a new interest, an actor I liked, whatever, I created a WL (and of course deleted some over time). I had some WL so obscure, they only had a hit once or twice a year. I will never be able to remember or recreate all of them. Even when I migrated from the S2 to S3, I had them both hooked up to different inputs, and flipped back & forth, copying SP & WL. And some SP can't be set until the show starts up again.
> 
> Is it the end of the world? Of course not. But it is very very painful. And it was unnecessary. Had I not paid WK to do this, it would not have happened.


I'm not making excuses for Weaknees here or trying to say they don't hold any responsibility here, but the first rule of sending anything that has losable data on it in for repair is MAKE SOME KIND OF BACKUP. Data loss is *always* a possibility. You should have at the very least written down your WL and SP lists, taken a picture of your TV screen with the lists up there, or something.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

astrohip said:


> The news only gets worse....


Stupid question, what about the s2 for SP's and WL's? Not there?


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

David Platt said:


> I'm not making excuses for Weaknees here or trying to say they don't hold any responsibility here, but the first rule of sending anything that has losable data on it in for repair is MAKE SOME KIND OF BACKUP. Data loss is *always* a possibility.


Agreed.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

David Platt said:


> I'm not making excuses for Weaknees here or trying to say they don't hold any responsibility here, but the first rule of sending anything that has losable data on it in for repair is MAKE SOME KIND OF BACKUP. Data loss is *always* a possibility. You should have at the very least written down your WL and SP lists, taken a picture of your TV screen with the lists up there, or something.


I know I know. I just ASSumed it would be a snap, so just do it. And now I reap it...

It does use Torx, T10 & T15. And one of the Torx screws holding the HD base in place is waaay down a narrow chute, too far for my Torx to reach. Had to improvise with a socket extender & tape 

I am a fanatic about backing up, and have a bunch of cute XCOPY routines that I run daily/weekly to backup up my laptop. I'm anal paranoid about it. [banging head on wall] So why didn't I do the TiVo? [/banging head]

I will check the S2, but it's been running pretty much unattended since the S3's arrival. It's kind of a last resort backup, if the S3 and the SA8300HD both mess up. About once a week, I turn on the TV it's hooked up to, and delete all the recordings I've already watched on the S3. But it may still have some WL on it. Good idea :up: . But my WL are also a dynamic creature, shifting all the time.

Oh well, I am just ranting again. My wife is reminding me at least it works, so shut up and watch TV. Prolly good advice. She always was smarter than me...


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## hornblowercat (Mar 4, 2007)

astrohip said:


> IOh well, I am just ranting again. My wife is reminding me at least it works, so shut up and watch TV. Prolly good advice. She always was smarter than me...


Kind of what I said a couple of post up ago, isn't it?


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

astrohip said:


> About once a week, I turn on the TV it's hooked up to, and delete all the recordings I've already watched on the S3.:


I was doing the same thing as you until it occurred to me to simply set all of my recordings to no more than two shows for each SP or auto WL and let the TiVo handle deleting them since I really didn't ever need the S2. I finally turned it off. It still has a life, too. I can now trust my second S3 (without the cableCARDs) as backup to my S3 with the cableCARDs. The only thing that blows out a recording is that damn EAS.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I had a weird experience when I upgraded my hard drive (a self install from Weaknees). I just assumed I'd have to recreate my S3's SPs. No big deal. So I started to do that from memory. And of course I forgot about half of them.

Well, after about a day I went back, and in my SP list there were ALL my old SPs! TiVo called them "Guides." And instead of a green circle with a double checkmark, there's a yellow circle with a single check. NO idea how that happened. I can only assume the SPs were stored somehow at TiVo.com, and were restored when the software compared the two lists (local and remote) and found some SPs had disappeared without being deliberately deleted.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Peter000 said:


> I had a weird experience when I upgraded my hard drive (a self install from Weaknees). I just assumed I'd have to recreate my S3's SPs. No big deal. So I started to do that from memory. And of course I forgot about half of them.
> 
> Well, after about a day I went back, and in my SP list there were ALL my old SPs! TiVo called them "Guides." And instead of a green circle with a double checkmark, there's a yellow circle with a single check. NO idea how that happened. I can only assume the SPs were stored somehow at TiVo.com, and were restored when the software compared the two lists (local and remote) and found some SPs had disappeared without being deliberately deleted.





eric_mcgovern said:


> Here is what I remember. If your Series 2 was hooked up to broadband, and your privacy settings were marked as "opt-in", TiVo would store a snapshot of your Season Passes on their end. If you replaced the hard drive, within a day or so your Season Passes would just magically reappear. A few people noticed it, and I believe TiVoPony stepped in and said "yep it's an undocumented, unsupported feature, but enjoy". Sure enough when I swapped my HD out a while back in my Series 2, all my Season Passes came right back.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4940973&&#post4940973


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Thanks cherry ghost. That explains it.  The way they came back was weird though. It didn't list any information on the SP info screen. it was all blank except for the menu items and the message "This guide will be recorded automatically."


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

David Platt said:


> I'm not making excuses for Weaknees here or trying to say they don't hold any responsibility here, but the first rule of sending anything that has losable data on it in for repair is MAKE SOME KIND OF BACKUP. Data loss is *always* a possibility. You should have at the very least written down your WL and SP lists, taken a picture of your TV screen with the lists up there, or something.


Agreed. If the data was important enough that it would cause some kind of freak-out if it got lost, then it's worth taking the minute or two to take digital pics of the screens. What if the HD got lost in transit, or got bounced around...? Wouldn't have been WK's fault and the data would still be lost.

Sorry to hear this nightmare story though, astrohip...


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

astrohip said:


> GS goes smooth, and everything works. All my channels, HD, pay (HBO, etc), everything. I have no idea why, but the cc now work perfectly.


I guess this confirms there is nothing stored on the HDD regarding the pairing as the 750GB from weaknees appeared to come with a default image (unless they somehow made the copy from the 250GB and switched to a backup partition)

In that case, there may be events that appear to be HDD related (but actually aren't) which can cause the paring to be lost and regeneration of the Data field. One of those events appears to be clear and delete everything (based on the article posted earlier)

A non-HDD event that could cause the pairing to be lost appears to be swapping CableCARD 1/2.

I guess there is a very remote chance some pairing info was stored on the HDD and similar as above, because of "privacy" settings being set to opt-in, were downloaded to the unit later on.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sfhub said:


> I guess this confirms there is nothing stored on the HDD regarding the pairing as the 750GB from weaknees appeared to come with a default image (unless they somehow made the copy from the 250GB and switched to a backup partition)
> 
> In that case, there may be events that appear to be HDD related (but actually aren't) which can cause the paring to be lost and regeneration of the Data field. One of those events appears to be clear and delete everything (based on the article posted earlier)
> 
> A non-HDD event that could cause the pairing to be lost appears to be swapping CableCARD 1/2.


While I agree with your assumption in theory, here's what I find baffling. The cableCARDS did NOT work when he simply plugged in the upgraded TiVo with the 750g. It was only when he first tried reinstalling the 250g and THEN the 750g came to life. Do you suppose it may be something written to the FAT or possibly reading something unique from the drive? Do hdd's have unique ID's? Or does something have to be written to them. As an example, Xp writes something to the hdd that damages the drive for TiVo. But, it definitely looks like the hdd is not storing anything, but merely providing an ID #.

Edit: Yet, having a unique ser# can't explain how copying an image to a new drive works fine. So why wasn't the trigger issued?


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## CheezWiz (Dec 30, 2006)

From this:
"I get a message from WK yesterday (Wed) that they had a problem copying my existing HD. It wouldn't copy, so they were going to install the 750Gb as is, and it was on its way back. They also made clear they weren't going to charge me for the failed service."

I think it is quite obvious to all of us here that they screwed this up and instead of being honest and saying that they did in fact screw it up, they lied to him. That is inexcusable, so I feel no sympathy for them in this thread.

As someone else posted, they must have overwritten the source drive the first go around. They should have admitted their mistake and contacted this guy to see how he wished to proceed. Instead they do the upgrade and send it back. They obviously care more about the $$ than the customer. I do not see how any of you can argue the side of WK in this case. They obviously tried to screw him over so I do not think that he owed them the courtesy of calling before posting. They SHOULD HAVE CALLED HIM! Eye for an eye you know... Do unto others... Somebody on their end screwed up, tried to cover it all up.. They did not call because they knew they could not simply put in the old drive as he would have probably asked them to do, since THEY ERASED IT!!

Now you can still try to deflect blame from them to the OP for not making a backup, COME ON! How often have any of us lost something in transit?? Those drives can take 250 G's when in the off state! WK's are supposed to be professionals who do not screw up. If he were expected to take out the drive and do a backup, THEN WHY PAY THEM TO DO ALL THIS?? Perhaps WK should not offer the service if they cannot guarantee they will not screw it up. Or perhaps they should have the professional foresight to create a backup of each drive that comes in just in case this scenario happens. Remember THEY ARE THE PROFESSIONALS, the customer is NOT. This whole blame the customer mentality really burns my roids!


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I didn't suggest that making a full backup made sense... merely made a friendly reminder to (at the very least) take digital pics of the SP and WL screens before removing the drive and sending it off, if that information would be impossible to remember or recreate. No, not doing so isn't the reason for WK's screw-up. But it would have made the aftermath a bit less painful.

I do agree from the sounds of it, WK screwed up... plain and simple. That 750 GB drive should be FREE!


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## CheezWiz (Dec 30, 2006)

Fofer said:


> I didn't suggest that making a full backup made sense... merely made a friendly reminder to (at the very least) take digital pics of the SP and WL screens before removing the drive and sending it off, if that information would be impossible to remember or recreate. No, not doing so isn't the reason for WK's screw-up. But it would have made the aftermath a bit less painful.
> 
> I do agree from the sounds of it, WK screwed up... plain and simple. That 750 GB drive should be FREE!


Sorry Fofer, I read more into the backup posts than was there. You are indeed correct that taking photos and such is a very important step before ANYONE does an upgrade. All the times I have upgraded ReplayTV's and Tivo's, I never thought of such a simple solution for saving SP & WL data.. It is very good to remind us all of the simple things that help..


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

astrohip said:


> This can not be blamed on anything but WeaKnees. It was perfect when I shipped it, with no signs of any impending HD failure (it's only 4 months old). It obviously wasn't damaged in transit; it still works. And I refuse to believe it just happened to give up the ghost at the very moment in time I sent it to them. They screwed up somehow.


That may be what happened but I have seen hard drives fail a week after the pc was received. I've also seen it happened a month and 90 days after they were received.

It doesn't happen often but it does happen.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

sfhub said:


> I guess this confirms there is nothing stored on the HDD regarding the pairing as the 750GB from weaknees appeared to come with a default image (unless they somehow made the copy from the 250GB and switched to a backup partition)
> 
> In that case, there may be events that appear to be HDD related (but actually aren't) which can cause the paring to be lost and regeneration of the Data field. One of those events appears to be clear and delete everything (based on the article posted earlier)
> 
> ...


I think you are correct, the HD has nothing to do with CC pairing settings. I did make one change before I hooked the S3 up with the 250GB. I had a splitter the first time I hooked up the 750/S3. I normally do not have a splitter, but I put one in so I could have the SA8300HD and the S3 running concurrently. The TW guy suggested I try removing it, then see if the CC works. I didn't have a chance to do that until the S3 had the original HD back in it.

My guess is the S3 with the 750GB from WK *would have worked out of the box* if the splitter hadn't been there. I don't think there was any interaction between the CC and the swapping of the HDs. I can't confirm this, this is just anecdotal evidence.

None of this makes the pain of not having backed up any easier to stomach. [continued sound of head banging on wall]


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

JYoung said:


> That may be what happened but I have seen hard drives fail a week after the pc was received. I've also seen it happened a month and 90 days after they were received.It doesn't happen often but it does happen.


I don't think you understand. His hdd did not fail. It still works. WK wiped it in error.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

While my conjecture (that they mixed up the source/destination drive in their command) MAY be right, as others have mentioned, don't discount the possibility that shipping jarred & kileld the drive! It CAN happen, however unlikely it sounds (75G+ shock is usually tolerable by new hard drives, when not powered up)

Although, as pl1 pointed out, the 250 still works. Hmmm ...


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

astrohip said:


> My guess is the S3 with the 750GB from WK *would have worked out of the box* if the splitter hadn't been there. I don't think there was any interaction between the CC and the swapping of the HDs. I can't confirm this, this is just anecdotal evidence.


Splitter? That doesn't matter. I have a a 2 way splitter to my cablemodem and then a 3 way splitter to my 3 TiVos off of the 2 way splitter. They all work fine. The only issue with a splitter is a degradation of signal strength. Sounds like the CSR was grabbing for something, anything.

Let me ask you. Did you ever do a clear and delete? You said you had to do a guided setup, right? But I was under the impression you had to do a clear and delete with a new image.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Considering the "original" 250 GB *works* but arrived without any of astro's settings or recorded shows, we can rule out the possibility that the drive died from a bump in transit. Had shipping killed it, the TiVo wouldn't boot at all!

WK must have either copied in the wrong direction by accident (and then made up the story about being unable to copy to the 750)... or otherwise somehow screwed up in their attempt, and just wiped the drive with a brand new image to try and "fix" the problem.

I put "original" in quotes because... maybe they mixed up his hard drive with another and sent the wrong one back?

There's no other explanation that I can think of, where a 250 GB drive would come back fully operational, but without his recorded shows and settings.

Anyway you slice it, the situation sucks. :down:


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

pl1 said:


> The cableCARDS did NOT work when he simply plugged in the upgraded TiVo with the 750g. It was only when he first tried reinstalling the 250g and THEN the 750g came to life.


This could be explained by the extra split in the line causing the signal strength to be too low.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

pl1 said:


> Splitter? That doesn't matter. I have a a 2 way splitter to my cablemodem and then a 3 way splitter to my 3 TiVos off of the 2 way splitter. They all work fine. The only issue with a splitter is a degradation of signal strength.


I think the signal strength was the whole point of mentioning the splitter.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sfhub said:


> I think the signal strength was the whole point of mentioning the splitter.


Why, do you think that would be enough of an issue for a cablCARD auth? Seems like there would be no picture first. I suppose if he went back to the splitter now to verify that it isn't the splitter.


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## CheezWiz (Dec 30, 2006)

ashu said:


> While my conjecture (that they mixed up the source/destination drive in their command) MAY be right, as others have mentioned, don't discount the possibility that shipping jarred & kileld the drive! It CAN happen, however unlikely it sounds (75G+ shock is usually tolerable by new hard drives, when not powered up)
> 
> Although, as pl1 pointed out, the 250 still works. Hmmm ...


The seagate drives can handle a 300 G shock when not in operation and 68 G when operating. WD can handle 250 G / 65 G. If the S3 took a hit hard enough to kill the drive in shipping, the motherboard would have cracked or worse. Lets get serious here..

I work IT at a medium-large University. I can say with reasonable accuracy that if a hard drive is going to fail due to defects, it will usually do so in the first 30 days of operation. On a Tivo, that would be accelerated because of its operational behavior. After that, the usual culprit is mishandling while in operation or power issues. The chances of a working drive being damaged in transport are so slim that I will fully discount that possibility. The heads are parked and locked when off and that is the only real chance of damage if the drive is packed to avoid direct physical damage to the circuit board.

An asteroid could come through my roof and kill me as I type this. Yes, it CAN HAPPEN. Is it? Naah...

Do not be afraid to call an apple an apple. They fubar'd this.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

pl1 said:


> Why, do you think that would be enough of an issue for a cablCARD auth?


I have a 4-port drop amp and my drop point. I have a 4-split going to my Motorola STB. It works fine. If change the 4-split to 8-split, the return path is too low and my box cannot get authorized nor can it get guide data.

Without knowing the incoming signal strength and all the splits in between the drop point and the S3, my question is basically how can you know signal strength is not an issue?


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## CheezWiz (Dec 30, 2006)

sfhub said:


> I have a 4-port drop amp and my drop point. I have a 4-split going to my Motorola STB. It works fine. If change the 4-split to 8-split, the return path is too low and my box cannot get authorized nor can it get guide data.


I had to put in an amp (inbound and return) because of splits in my house.... It will stop it all from working for sure.

Especially if a person uses cheap splitters that are not rated at a high enough frequency.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Followup to my conjecture: the *only* other scenario I could see that would explain the "erased" 250 GB would be if the drive got damaged in transit *to* Weaknees. That would explain why they were unable to copy it, I suppose.

HOWEVER (and this is a big however,) one would think if that were the case, they would say to the customer, "Hey, this drive wasn't operational when it arrived. Would you like us to try and fix it? We might have to erase it completely."

Getting back his original HD in a state any other than he sent it off is certainly unexpected. And Weaknees made it that way. The question is why, and why didn't they give him a heads up about it before he discovered it himself?


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sfhub said:


> I have a 4-port drop amp and my drop point. I have a 4-split going to my Motorola STB. It works fine. If change the 4-split to 8-split, the return path is too low and my box cannot get authorized nor can it get guide data.
> 
> Without knowing the incoming signal strength and all the splits in between the drop point and the S3, my question is basically how can you know signal strength is not an issue?


You can't. I guess I just assumed since everything was working properly before the change that it shouldn't be a factor. But, if he did not have any splits prior (which seems odd since he mentioned at least having the S2 as a backup), then I stand corrected.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

CheezWiz said:


> I had to put in an amp (inbound and return) because of splits in my house.... It will stop it all from working for sure.
> 
> Especially if a person uses cheap splitters that are not rated at a high enough frequency.


Ok, I'll shut up about that one.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

Fofer said:


> Followup to my conjecture: the *only* other scenario I could see that would explain the "erased" 250 GB would be if the drive got damaged in transit *to* Weaknees. That would explain why they were unable to copy it, I suppose.


Or, as noted before, it was replaced. Now, if it came in damaged and they gave him a working replacement for free, that is a whole other story. But, without any indication of what they did, they do leave themselves open to OUR interpretation. Seems like Astro should get the real story. He could even do that publicly at

w w w . w k f o r u m s . c o m /forums/index.php


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

pl1 said:


> Or, as noted before, it was replaced. Now, if it came in damaged and they gave him a working replacement for free, that is a whole other story. But, without any indication of what they did, they do leave themselves open to OUR interpretation. Seems like Astro should get the real story. He could even do that publicly at
> 
> w w w . w k f o r u m s . c o m /forums/index.php


That sounds like my suspicion - astro, do you have any way of knowing that the "original" hard drive that you got back was actually yours?

For all we know, they got original drives crossed up sitting on the workbench (since they sell upgraded Tivos, one assumes that they have a bunch of original Tivo drives that have never been used laying around) and they were unable to copy anything from "his" original drive since it wasn't actually his. Contact with WK MAY cause them to be able to look around the shop and make things right. It's a long shot, but I'll be fascinated to hear WK's side of this.


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## T-Shee (Sep 22, 2006)

pl1 said:


> Why, do you think that would be enough of an issue for a cablCARD auth? Seems like there would be no picture first. I suppose if he went back to the splitter now to verify that it isn't the splitter.


Cable cards get their pairing info/headend-handshake from a different frequency spectrum than the video spectrum, hence, OOB or "Out of Band" concept.

You could think of it like this: the cable card has it's own tuner, for specific channel list messages, authorization, ECMs, EMMs, etc. (This is the only 2-way part of CC v1.0).

It is entirely possible that a weak signal in the OOB freq. would cause the CCs to fail to authorize. {All splitters reduce the signal strengh after the split.)


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

T-Shee said:


> Cable cards get their pairing info/headend-handshake from a different frequency spectrum than the video spectrum, hence, OOB or "Out of Band" concept.
> 
> You could think of it like this: the cable card has it's own tuner, for specific channel list messages, authorization, ECMs, EMMs, etc. (This is the only 2-way part of CC v1.0).
> 
> It is entirely possible that a weak signal in the OOB freq. would cause the CCs to fail to authorize. {All splitters reduce the signal strengh after the split.)


Thanks, That is exactly what I was wondering.

After I was corrected earlier, I did a little research and I read that the OOB was in another spectrum, but I still couldn't figure out what signal strength was required. I originally figured it would be inconsequential compared to a video signal. But, I see now that it could be an issue.


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## rdrrepair (Nov 24, 2006)

astrohip said:


> But I have lost everything! All my recorded shows, all my Season Passes, but most critical, all my WishLists. I had 50-60 WL, accumulated over years. Every time something grabbed my fancy, a new interest, an actor I liked, whatever, I created a WL (and of course deleted some over time). I had some WL so obscure, they only had a hit once or twice a year. I will never be able to remember or recreate all of them. Even when I migrated from the S2 to S3, I had them both hooked up to different inputs, and flipped back & forth, copying SP & WL. And some SP can't be set until the show starts up again.


Wow, that sucks!

What happened to your S2 unit?

I believe that if you opted in to receiving offers from TiVo your season passes will be restored automatically. Just don't enter in any season passes and force a connection - that should restore you IF you opted in!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

pl1 said:


> Let me ask you. Did you ever do a clear and delete? You said you had to do a guided setup, right? But I was under the impression you had to do a clear and delete with a new image.


I've never done a C&D in my life; S2, S3, never. Never needed to.



sfhub said:


> I think the signal strength was the whole point of mentioning the splitter.


It was. And I think that was the TW CSR point also.



Fofer said:


> Getting back his original HD in a state any other than he sent it off is certainly unexpected. And Weaknees made it that way. The question is why, and why didn't they give him a heads up about it before he discovered it himself?


Yes, this is what burns me. If it was a bad HD, just say so. Or if they screwed up, say so. But to send back a complete clear & clean HD? How did it get put back in its original state? It wasn't like that when it left. There aren't many conclusions other than WK put a new image on it. But why? As others have mentioned, they may have accidentally wiped it out. They may have switched HD in error. Maybe it went bad, and they gave me a new one (yeah, right).



GoHokies! said:


> That sounds like my suspicion - astro, do you have any way of knowing that the "original" hard drive that you got back was actually yours?


No way that I know of. I had never opened my S3 until last night, have no idea what was in it, or any serial #s of HD, etc.

One thing I just thought of, but it ain't gonna happen. My old HD was on 8.1, but the 750 they sent me came with 8.0. I could reinstall the 250, and see what version is on it. If it's not 8.1, they put a new image on it. But since I now have a great running S3-750, with both cc pairing like lovebirds, I'm gonna leave well enough alone. (BTW, the 750 updated to 8.1 within hours last night!)

I sent my "it only gets worse" post late last night, when the full realization of what happened first hit. Now that a few hours have passed, I realize it's not the end of the world. I'm still not Mr. Happy (see how easily I turned this into YALT), but life goes on.

I will let y'all know what WK says when I hear from them. And many thanks for all the contributions & posts; it's been an illuminating thread.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Ummmm, wait - the 250 has never been installed back into your S3? I thought you said you did that yesterday when you found it was empty! Or did you forget to check the version on it (yeah, 8.0 would point to fubaring on WK's part!)

It's not like you have to 'install' the 250 to test that - open the box, put the 250 on a flat stable surface within reach, and switch cables to it from the 750 before firing up (connected to a nearby TV, of course).


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

ashu said:


> Ummmm, wait - the 250 has never been installed back into your S3? I thought you said you did that yesterday when you found it was empty! Or did you forget to check the version on it (yeah, 8.0 would point to fubaring on WK's part!)
> 
> It's not like you have to 'install' the 250 to test that - open the box, put the 250 on a flat stable surface within reach, and switch cables to it from the 750 before firing up (connected to a nearby TV, of course).


When I put the 250 back in last night, I didn't think to check the version, that's what I meant. And there is no way anyone touches my 750 now; it works, it's back in the rack. Keepa you hands offa my TiVo.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I had some WL so obscure, they only had a hit once or twice a year. I will never be able to remember or recreate all of them.


I just woke up from my afternoon nap, and clear as a bell, I remembered one of those obscure WL. Bai Ling! :up: Hadn't even had a hit yet, but when I do...

Hmm, it won't accept it. Why would it take her a couple weeks ago, but not now? Has my wife secretly raised the "maturity settings" on the TiVo?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Still no word from WK?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

astrohip said:


> I just woke up from my afternoon nap, and clear as a bell, I remembered one of those obscure WL. Bai Ling! :up: Hadn't even had a hit yet, but when I do...
> 
> Hmm, it won't accept it. Why would it take her a couple weeks ago, but not now? Has my wife secretly raised the "maturity settings" on the TiVo?


Try Ling Bai


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Try Ling Bai


I'd love to! :up:


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

The most important lesson here is to "backup" your SPs and WL's before doing anything like this.

I had to do a few C&DE's in my TiVo's lifetime (mostly dealing with hacking to work in Canada before it was supported here). Before I did, I took out my digital camera and took pictures of my Wishlist Screens, my To Do list, and my Seasons Passes. It cost me nothing. 

After GS I just parsed through my digital pictures and set up each SP and WL EXACTLY as they were, then deleted the pictures. Easy Peasy!

Before asking Weaknees or anyone to do this, a simple set of pictures (took no more than a few minutes) can guard against this kind of "disaster" 

...Dale


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

BTW, what shows did you lose? I'm sure that between all of us here, we can probably get you copies of most of what you need.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

But likely not in uncompressed HD (and if you CAN, I don't want to hear about your hacked S3  )


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I don't suppose you had tried using any guru guides before shipping it off. Doing so puts your account in opt-in status which will preserve your SP's in the event that you wipe your drive. I'm not sure if it backs up WL's as well or not. Too late for that to help now, but something to think about for the future.

Though if the TiVo came back with 8.0.1 on it, I'm not sure how well that would work since it needs at least 8.1.1 for the above to work.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

pl1 said:


> Because, before I upgraded my hdd, I had read the warnings. That if you did your own image or dd, and restored to your new hdd, you would have no problem. That is true. I did the upgrade after having my cableCARDS installed and paired to Comcast. The warning stated that if you bought a drive or an instacake, you would need to get the cableCARDs reauthorized. Now, I can't put my finger on where I read this. So, I will concede, I do not know this to be a fact.


I dropped a new 750 GB HDD with Tivo software pre-loaded from weaknees into my S3, without copying any info from my old S3 HDD, and the cable cards just kept on ticking, no need to redo pairing at all. So I doubt any info is stored on the Tivo HDD. When I compared the pairing info, only the Data field changed after the HDD replacement, the host IDs didn't change, and of course the cable card IDs are the same.

Here in San Jose, Comcast only keeps track of cable card ID, when activating cable cards, they didn't ask for host ID or data number, until Dec 2006 when they started collecting this info from existing cable card customers. I gave them the info, but it doesn't look like they are using this info yet.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

yunlin12 said:


> I dropped a new 750 GB HDD with Tivo software pre-loaded from weaknees into my S3, without copying any info from my old S3 HDD, and the cable cards just kept on ticking, no need to redo pairing at all. So I doubt any info is stored on the Tivo HDD. When I compared the pairing info, only the Data field changed after the HDD replacement, the host IDs didn't change, and of course the cable card IDs are the same.
> 
> Here in San Jose, Comcast only keeps track of cable card ID, when activating cable cards, they didn't ask for host ID or data number, until Dec 2006 when they started collecting this info from existing cable card customers. I gave them the info, but it doesn't look like they are using this info yet.


I think we have determined that fact throughout this thread and throughout Astrohip's amazing journey since he said that he replaced his drive and the cableCARDs work. I think we can safely say that it is the clear & delete function that does the damage by resetting the data field. That and other major changes like swapping cableCARDs.:

Data: This is a dynamic ID that is generated during a host reset or new CableCARD installation. It's the key piece of data that will change if you reset your TiVo, move cards around or make other substantial changes. If the value changes, the Cable company must update their Data field value to match it.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

morac said:


> I don't suppose you had tried using any guru guides before shipping it off. Doing so puts your account in opt-in status which will preserve your SP's in the event that you wipe your drive...


I'm not sure that does happen. I had opt-in status enabled prior to swapping out my original 250GB drive with a pre-configured WK 750GB DB35, and it did NOT save my SPs. I had to add them all again.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> I'm not sure that does happen. I had opt-in status enabled prior to swapping out my original 250GB drive with a pre-configured WK 750GB DB35, and it did NOT save my SPs. I had to add them all again.


According to this post the SP and WL should repopulate if the drive is swapped out. That was on the S2, but I believe it should work with the S3. The only issue is that in the S3's this feature was probably added in 8.1.1 (when Guru Guides and KidZone were) so if you swapped out when still running 8.0.1 it probably wouldn't work.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

morac said:


> According to this post the SP and WL should repopulate if the drive is swapped out. That was on the S2, but I believe it should work with the S3. The only issue is that in the S3's this feature was probably added in 8.1.1 (when Guru Guides and KidZone were) so if you swapped out when still running 8.0.1 it probably wouldn't work.


That may be it, morac. I swapped it out in December.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

yunlin12 said:


> I dropped a new 750 GB HDD with Tivo software pre-loaded from weaknees into my S3, without copying any info from my old S3 HDD, and the cable cards just kept on ticking, no need to redo pairing at all. So I doubt any info is stored on the Tivo HDD. When I compared the pairing info, only the Data field changed after the HDD replacement, the host IDs didn't change, and of course the cable card IDs are the same.
> 
> Here in San Jose, Comcast only keeps track of cable card ID, when activating cable cards, they didn't ask for host ID or data number, until Dec 2006 when they started collecting this info from existing cable card customers. I gave them the info, but it doesn't look like they are using this info yet.


If your area is not using Host and Data yet in the pairing then it is not possible to make any determination about what is or isn't stored where. If the Host and Data are not involved in the pairing (which is the case with Comcast in some areas) then you could theoretically move the CableCARDs to any device and they would work, yet it would not be proper to make the conclusion that everyone can do so.

I think you have proven that despite Comcast asking for your "Host" and "Data" info they are still not using it in the pairing. Otherwise the "Data" field changing would have broken your pairing. I recently did a drive upgrade by copying my working image and I verified the "Data" field did not change.

I think you have also determine that using a pre-formatted drive from Weaknees to perform the upgrade is a large enough event to trigger the "Data" field to change, which could potentially break the pairing for some systems (though not yours because the IDs are not in use yet for your system)


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

sfhub said:
 

> If your area is not using Host and Data yet in the pairing then it is not possible to make any determination about what is or isn't stored where. If the Host and Data are not involved in the pairing (which is the case with Comcast in some areas) then you could theoretically move the CableCARDs to any device and they would work, yet it would not be proper to make the conclusion that everyone can do so.
> 
> I think you have proven that despite Comcast asking for your "Host" and "Data" info they are still not using it in the pairing. Otherwise the "Data" field changing would have broken your pairing. I recently did a drive upgrade by copying my working image and I verified the "Data" field did not change.
> 
> I think you have also determine that using a pre-formatted drive from Weaknees to perform the upgrade is a large enough event to trigger the "Data" field to change, which could potentially break the pairing for some systems (though not yours because the IDs are not in use yet for your system)


Come to think of it, most cable card ready TV do not have HDD, and maybe flash memory for internal storage. So if any dynamic info (like Data) is stored on the host instead of the cards, then those TV would have to have at least flash memory to store them.

Anyway, glad to see this thread generating a lot of good discussion and information, a good thread considering the heated way it started.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Everytime I see this thread I think "...and dingoes ate my baby!"


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## weaknees (May 11, 2001)

One of the greatest things about TiVo is how passionate people are about itthe machine, the experience and the radical changes that it brings to TV watching.

Our employees don't fight fires, we dont put criminals in jail and we certainly don't cure diseases. Yet there is something oddly rewarding about helping people improve their TiVo experience.

By contrast, it is strikingly painful to hear from people who have lost critical content--Kids' appearances on TV, friends and family in the news, politicians who have stored their appearances on their TiVos, and so on.

We take these losses seriously and do what we can do help, although often there is absolutely nothing that we can do.

Astrohip's situation is particularly distressing because he had no reason to expect what he received back from us. In the 6 years that we have been doing this work, only a dozen-or-so times have people sent drives that they considered to be fully-functioning, only to find that we could not copy data. When this rare situation arises, we typically send a the upgrade drive together with customer's defective drive, as we received it. 

Astrohip, your situation was unique because after the copy failed, our technician loaded the new TiVo software on your 750GB and your 250GB simultaneously, rather than pulling your 250GB as he should have. This is a mistake that is not acceptable, but we frankly didn't see this as necessary or helpful detail for a voicemail message. From our perspective, your factory drive could not be copied, so it was not likely to live much longer anyway. I'm surprised that the drive booted at all in your TiVo or that the accidental software load even 'took'.

Be that as it may, I truly hope that we apologized to you in our message to you. As hollow as it will sound here, we really do regret and apologize for what you went through. For what it's worth, we chose to send your TiVo out to you rather than waiting to hear back, because most customers prefer the fastest turnaround possible.

We wish we knew what you were facing with your CableCARDs (or that we had seen this thread sooner), because at least we could have helped ease that pain, we could have sent you the Torx tools you needed, and we could have provided the details that you were seeking about your upgrade. I'm glad to hear that you finally resolved the card issue, but I am very sorry that it was such a nuisance to get there. 

As a company that deals nearly exclusively with TiVo, we are pretty uniquely attuned to the ties that our customers have to their TiVos. As crazy as it sounds to outsiders, we take our work quite seriously, and we have many procedures in place to ensure that customers' TiVos are treated properly when in our possession. 

Incidentally, despite the title of this thread, I cannot think of a single instance over the last 6 years that weaKnees has "killed" a TiVo. To the contrary, replacing a failing hard drive has breathed new life into thousands upon thousands of our customers' TiVos.


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## Six65and1half (Mar 17, 2007)

I am fairly new to the TVIO community, but it seems to me that weaknees is one of the good guys. 

As the resident computer geek for my extended family, I have learned that when it comes to computers, that sh*t happens. Parts quit working with little or no notice, and procedures you've done 20 times before with no problem, go horribly wrong the 21st time you do it , for no understandable reason. And that seems to be what happen here.

I understand and appreciate Astroship's frustration, I've been there , numbed it with alcohol and moved on. Data loss always sucks and is time consuming to recreate, But you got a machine with a nice new, big drive and ready for future adventures.

We are useing more powerfull computer techology to record a TV show then NASA used just 38 years ago to land men on the moon. Things go wrong.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Yup - reasonable and expected response from weaknees.

Of course, forgiveness in this specific situation/case is up to AstroHip - but he HAS already said he'll live with it.

As 665.5 said, sh*t happens. With weaknees, it is rare, but at least they have the decency to own up to it.

IMO, nothing more to see here - I'm moving on.


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## Leo_N (Nov 13, 2003)

pl1 said:


> I think we have determined that fact throughout this thread and throughout Astrohip's amazing journey since he said that he replaced his drive and the cableCARDs work. I think we can safely say that it is the clear & delete function that does the damage by resetting the data field. That and other major changes like swapping cableCARDs.:
> 
> Data: This is a dynamic ID that is generated during a host reset or new CableCARD installation. It's the key piece of data that will change if you reset your TiVo, move cards around or make other substantial changes. If the value changes, the Cable company must update their Data field value to match it.


I can confirm that a Clear & Delete everything didn't wipe my cablecards, although I am also pretty sure that Charter in my area does not do the full amount of pairing that is possible. I think they basically activate them, and call it good. I have done a C&DE, have put in a new Weaknees hard drive, and switched out one of my S3s (see: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=342498 ) completely without ever contacting Charter to do anything with my cable cards, so the actual answer to the pairing question is going to change depending on Cable company and headend setup.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Leo_N said:


> I can confirm that a Clear & Delete everything didn't wipe my cablecards, although I am also pretty sure that Charter in my area does not do the full amount of pairing that is possible. I think they basically activate them, and call it good. I have done a C&DE, have put in a new Weaknees hard drive, and switched out one of my S3s (see: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=342498 ) completely without ever contacting Charter to do anything with my cable cards, so the actual answer to the pairing question is going to change depending on Cable company and headend setup.


To expand on that, your specific cable company can choose to pair your CableCARD to your specific host device or they can choose just to activate the card.

If they choose just to activate the card, you can do anything you want with your TiVo's, including swapping drives, using someone else's image, returning the S3 to the store for a different unit, swapping cards in the CableCARD slots, moving the CableCARD to a QAM TV, etc. and it will still work fine.

However this is orthogonal to whether the particular action could cause the CableCARD to require re-pairing, because there was no pairing to begin with. Please note some cable companies have written down and/or called to ask for the Host/Data info but haven't actually enabled the pairing.

I think there were 2 questions brought up in this thread regarding pairing:
1) which events are considered serious enough to require re-pairing. Any event in which the "Data" field changes is significant enough to require re-pairing. Some people may see the "Data" field change but do not require re-pairing, but that is most likely because their cable company hasn't paired the devices (despite requesting the Host/Data fields)
2) since the Data info is dynamically generated, where is it actually stored. Is it stored on the CableCARD, somewhere in non-volatile memory on the host hardware, or is it implementation dependent and could be stored by the CableCARD drivers on the hard disk.

I could imagine a scenario where a person's cable company asked for the pairing info but didn't enable pairing yet. The person purchased a drive from Weaknees and installed it. The Data info changed (ie was dynamically regenerated), however, since pairing wasn't enabled, everything continued to work fine. Now after that event, the cable company finally got around to enabling the CableCARD pairing. When the 1TB drives come out, that person repeats the same process and buys a new drive from Weaknees, expecting everything to work, but now that pairing is enabled, it requires re-pairing of the CableCARDs.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sfhub said:


> I could imagine a scenario where a person's cable company asked for the pairing info but didn't enable pairing yet. The person purchased a drive from Weaknees and installed it. The Data info changed (ie was dynamically regenerated), however, since pairing wasn't enabled, everything continued to work fine. Now after that event, the cable company finally got around to enabling the CableCARD pairing. When the 1TB drives come out, that person repeats the same process and buys a new drive from Weaknees, expecting everything to work, but now that pairing is enabled, it requires re-pairing of the CableCARDs.


If this scenario WAS true, and the device is one-way, how could the headend ever find out the latest data information? I'm basing this on the recent thread discussion here. Would the cableco have to call to get the data info at that time? (And that could be the case since we have heard that Comcast has been contacting some customers after an update to the headend.)


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

David Platt said:


> BTW, what shows did you lose? I'm sure that between all of us here, we can probably get you copies of most of what you need.


Who knows, that's why I have a TiVo, so I don't have to rememberize anything. 

Seriously, I appreciate the offer. But if you look at my sig, you will see I have two other DVRs, an S2 and a SA8300HD. I use them to also record many of the same SPs as my S3, because I am anal to the max, and spend waaay too much time watching TV. So any regular OTA series, I will likely have duplicated. What I lost were the oddball things I had recorded. One offs, and things one finds cruising the WishLists. Nothing mission critical (although you wouldn't know that from my earlier posts!)



Fofer said:


> Everytime I see this thread I think "...and dingoes ate my baby!"


They did! But rather than create thread drift, I posted that story in the Happy Hour Forum.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

weaknees said:


> <snipped long & sincere reply>


Thank you for the reply WeaKnees. I just today sent you an email describing my adventure. Any resolution can be handled by email, as it should.

And everything you said is absolutely true. We *are* too passionate about these machines, hence my original post. And yes, my thread subject line was overly dramatic. I hope I made clear in all my various replies that (1) the S3 was not really "killed", and (2) many of my posts were made in the heat of the moment. Losing recordings & settings made me boil; a little time and hindsight has made me cooler. 

I can't attest to why or what you did to the original 250GB HD. It worked fine when I booted it this weekend, and obviously would have preferred your tech left it as is rather than put a new image on it. If it was gonna die (?), let it die with its memories.

If nothing else, it was an interesting thread on cablecard pairing, and how not backing up (or taking digipics of ones settings) can only lead to heartbreak, death or divorce (not in that order).

And yes, I *am* enjoying the benefits of a HUGE hard drive. I'm saving everything! And trying to get my RD Folder count to triple digits.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

astrohip said:


> And trying to get my RD Folder count to triple digits.


I have an equally large HD. I've found that, for whatever reason, the RD folder begins to whittle down in time, even if the "space" isn't required for it. (And no, I don't have Suggestions turned on.)

All it really maintains is "RECENT" deletions, nothing more. The entries don't stick around like Suggestions do, as sort of the "Free Space Indicator" we wish we had.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

pl1 said:


> If this scenario WAS true, and the device is one-way, how could the headend ever find out the latest data information? I'm basing this on the recent thread discussion here. Would the cableco have to call to get the data info at that time? (And that could be the case since we have heard that Comcast has been contacting some customers after an update to the headend.)


Well the most likely scenario if your pairing broke is that you, the customer, would notice you don't get encrypted content, and would call tech support, at which time they would ask for your Host/Data and update their records and reinitialize the cards.

The example of Comcast calling folks is because the Comcast/Motorola customer management app never provided a location to store the Host/Data pair (because it wasn't initially used) and that coupled with poor knowledge of the CableCARD pairing process led to Comcast never recording the info despite a Motorola application note that that information should be recorded outside of the customer management app. To that point, Comcast was just authorizing individual CableCARDs and not doing any pairing at all, so once you had an authorized CableCARD in possession, you could technically move it to other devices and it would still work.

Later on Motorola came out with an update that enabled the pairing support and at that point, Comcast realized they had never recorded this information on the initial CableCARD installs. To that end, they contracted a company called UEI (which manufactures various remote controls) to call people and get the Host/Data information that wasn't recorded the first time around. Apparently even after they have collected the information, that doesn't mean they have enabled the pairing, just that they have the information needed to enable the pairing at some future date.

BTW CableCARDs (even 1.x ones) are inherently 2-way devices. The CableCARDs themselves can communicate with the head-end. It is the "Host", in this case TiVo, which is not a "2-way" device (under CableCARD 1.0 specs).

In fact you are supposed to be able to take an existing 1.0 CableCARD and stick it in a 2-way capable host and it should support VOD, SDV, and associated services.

CableCARD 2.0 spec makes it mandatory for the Host to support 2-way. The physical CableCARD itself has supported 2-way ever since 1.0.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

WeaKnees did contact me, and offered a more than fair settlement. Especially considering they really didn't kill my S3, plus the tone of some of my earlier posts.  No, it's not a free hard drive (ok, I *was* dreaming there), but it helps make up for my pain & suffering. 

Can I change the thread subject to
The Thread Formerly Know As "WeaKnees killed my S3" ?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

astro - I will apologize here publicly for the tone of my first post in this thread in reaction to your initial post. My reaction, too, was somewhat heated in the moment and rather uncalled for. I've had extremely good experience with WK. I am glad you worked things out somewhat to your satisfaction with them. Now, let's all ENJOY our huge hard drives!


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Where's the teary-eyed smiley?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I think kumbaya around the campfire is next....


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Accepted. I never took it personally. I too am now an acolyte of the pimped out HD religion. In fact, I was gonna put that in my newly updated sig, but somebody beat me to it. 

PS: As someone else noted in another thread, my capacity shows as 107-HD/1015-SD.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

astrohip said:


> PS: As someone else noted in another thread, my capacity shows as 107-HD/1015-SD.


That's quite a difference, 98hr vs 107hr, 9hr of HD which is probably around 70GB HD space difference.

I wonder what is accounting for that difference. Are there different versions of the 750GB Seagate drive or does tivo have an alternate method of calculating capacity?

If it is a different version of the 750GB drive, wonder why Seagate doesn't market it as a 800GB drive.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

It is all an approximation anyway. Your cable provider and/or local OTA channels may or may not over/under compress channels. Look at the sizes of shows recorded from different channels


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

ashu said:


> It is all an approximation anyway. Your cable provider and/or local OTA channels may or may not over/under compress channels. Look at the sizes of shows recorded from different channels


Right, but is the TiVo capacity formula a dynamic approximation that takes that into account or does it use the same ratio all the time?


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

astrohip said:


> WeaKnees did contact me, and offered a more than fair settlement.


:up:


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

sfhub said:


> Right, but is the TiVo capacity formula a dynamic approximation that takes that into account or does it use the same ratio all the time?


Dunno. I've seen different results on different S2 systems (for identical disc upgrades) based on their known CBR encoding rates at various qualities, but of course that logic doesn't apply (out of TiVo's control) for the S3 and digital sources.

Maybe they updated their 'observed average bitrate'


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

sfhub said:


> Well the most likely scenario if your pairing broke is that you, the customer, would notice you don't get encrypted content, and would call tech support, at which time they would ask for your Host/Data and update their records and reinitialize the cards.


Minor correction. The customer would notice you don't get *copy protected* content. The cable company can encrypt channels, but not copy protect them. For just plain encrypted channels, the cable company doesn't need the host/card/data


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

morac said:


> Though if the TiVo came back with 8.0.1 on it, I'm not sure how well that would work since it needs at least 8.1.1 for the above to work.


I can confirm this TivoMagic thing definately works with the S3 now. Just last night my Terrabyte Tivo started freezing. Grrr.  Rather than screw around, I unhooked it, and plugged back in the original 250GB drive still running 8.0.1. Shortly after it updated to 8.1 all my SPs returned as Guides with single yellow check marks. I don't use WLs, so I don't know if they would return or not.


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## Saturn (Apr 10, 2001)

weaknees said:


> Astrohip, your situation was unique because after the copy failed, our technician loaded the new TiVo software on your 750GB and your 250GB simultaneously, rather than pulling your 250GB as he should have. *This is a mistake that is not acceptable, but we frankly didn't see this as necessary or helpful detail for a voicemail message.*


In other words, "we screwed up but thought we'd not mention it in case you never found out."

:down: :down: :down: 

Not that I ever would've used weaknees anyway (I do my own TiVo Futzing) but you can be sure I'll hestitate before sending anyone else your way either.


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## CheezWiz (Dec 30, 2006)

Saturn said:


> In other words, "we screwed up but thought we'd not mention it in case you never found out."
> 
> :down: :down: :down:
> 
> Not that I ever would've used weaknees anyway (I do my own TiVo Futzing) but you can be sure I'll hestitate before sending anyone else your way either.


Agree!! I wish Astro would run the WD utility on that drive to see if it has any bad sectors. Sorry, but I seriously doubt that the drive is bad.

I still believe they wiped it out by mistake.

At least a test of the drive could prove my opinion more likely wrong...

However, I suppose that since he (OP) has been satisfied, then the issue is over. But in my opinion, they took responsibility about as well as any politician does. I expect to see someone not involved resign now...


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## DonDon (Jan 14, 2007)

Unfortunately, in computer land, it is possible for something in the data indexing files could have been hosed up by cosmic rays or whatever that may have been preventing the copy, not necessarily a drive failing. 

I do my own Tivo work also, but this is the first, and only bad thing I have ever heard about Weaknees. They definitely screwed the pooch on this one, but they appear to have steppped up, admitted their mistake, and offered fair compensation to Astrohip. 

They seem like a pretty straight up company to me.

Don


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

DonDon said:


> Unfortunately, in computer land, it is possible for something in the data indexing files could have been hosed up by cosmic rays or whatever that may have been preventing the copy, not necessarily a drive failing. I do my own Tivo work also, but this is the first, and only bad thing I have ever heard about Weaknees. They definitely screwed the pooch on this one, but they appear to have steppped up, admitted their mistake, and offered fair compensation to Astrohip. They seem like a pretty straight up company to me.
> Don


Most people are not denying anything you said. But, that VM should have been more blunt. Instead of letting the OP *THINK * that the old drive was going to work fine, only to find out later the hard way that both drives were formatted with new software.



> I get a message from WK yesterday (Wed) that they had a problem copying my existing HD. It wouldn't copy, so they were going to install the 750Gb as is, and it was on its way back. They also made clear they weren't going to charge me for the failed service.


 Where does it say his original drive was wiped? The OP has to get a torx driver, open it up, reinstall his original drive only to find out it's wiped? That is the part most of us (I hope I'm correct in speaking for most of us, including Astrohip.) have a problem with, since the OP was paying someone else to do the dirty work.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Saturn said:


> In other words, "we screwed up but thought we'd not mention it in case you never found out."


Negative.

he found out that they screwed up when they left the message and he got back a Tivo with a 750 BG drive but no shows on it, so their mistake isn't a big secret. A short and succinct voicemail is the best (get to the point, donn't confuse someone that isn't technically inclined). if more data is needed or desired, then the person can call back and find out as much or as little as they care to (which is why so many of us at the beginning of the thread clamoured for AH to contact Weakness).

++ on DonDon - looks like they have stepped up to the plate, and they're likely to see my business when I decide to upgrade.


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## CheezWiz (Dec 30, 2006)

GoHokies! said:


> Negative.
> 
> he found out that they screwed up when they left the message and he got back a Tivo with a 750 BG drive but no shows on it, so their mistake isn't a big secret. A short and succinct voicemail is the best (get to the point, donn't confuse someone that isn't technically inclined). if more data is needed or desired, then the person can call back and find out as much or as little as they care to (which is why so many of us at the beginning of the thread clamoured for AH to contact Weakness).
> 
> ++ on DonDon - looks like they have stepped up to the plate, and they're likely to see my business when I decide to upgrade.


Negative.

The voice-mail simply said they were unable to copy the original drive, NOT THAT THEY HAD WIPED IT COMPLETELY! Which should have NEVER been done even if it did not copy. It should have been sent back in original condition. They do not magically get a fresh image.. I think the post was correct, they hoped he would not put it back in.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

astrohip said:


> WeaKnees did contact me, and offered a more than fair settlement. Especially considering they really didn't kill my S3, plus the tone of some of my earlier posts.  No, it's not a free hard drive (ok, I *was* dreaming there), but it helps make up for my pain & suffering.
> 
> Can I change the thread subject to
> The Thread Formerly Know As "WeaKnees killed my S3" ?


The mods can delete your thread if you would like. Just report it and ask.


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## CheezWiz (Dec 30, 2006)

Gregor said:


> The mods can delete your thread if you would like. Just report it and ask.


Don't delete the thread! Some good info in here.


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