# Tivo Stream & False Advertising!! I want my $ Back!



## Adaptel (Nov 6, 2009)

Being a loyal TiVo customer since day one, I was really excited when the slick email came from Tivo marketing announcing the capabilities of their new Tivo Stream product. It was just what I was looking for. I have an iPad, but hardly use it over my much preferred Android Tablet and phone. This was way back in mid 2012, and the promo email, website, and everything that talked about the Tivo Stream said "Now Working With IOS Devices" and "Android Support Coming Soon".

Well, the reason I decided to buy it the first day it was available was that I could play around with it on my iPad, then it will REALLY BE USEFUL to me when the android comes out SOOOOON! No reasonable person would expect soon to be close to a year. Since then, Tivo got $129.00 for the box, and all the monthly fees....while I wait to figure out what TiVo means by "Soon".

Android devices now outnumber IOS by quite a bit...GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER AND STOP MAKING PROMISES TO SELL PRODUCTS THAT YOU CANT KEEP!!! Where can I get my money back for a product that was completely misrepresented? It doesn't appear TiVo ever plans to add the Android support.

When will I buy another TiVo product after being a loyal customer for so long???? SOON!


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## ferrumpneuma (Jun 1, 2006)

Class action!!!!!!!!


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## jjd_87 (Jan 31, 2011)

There are no monthly fees on the Stream. 

A year is soon compared to 10 years BTW.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Do you have a sample of the advertising?


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

yeh what monthly fees


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## supasta (May 6, 2006)

"Soon" has always been "a long time from now" with TiVo.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

You should know better than to buy a product on day one based on the promise of a feature you require "coming soon".

And number of Android devices vs iOS devices is irrelevant, iPad owns a ridiculously commanding lead in the tablet market and Android will not be in a position to catch up to them within the next few years if at all. The only competitive presence in the tablet segment that iOS is going to be worried about is Windows 8.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

Philmatic said:


> And number of Android devices vs iOS devices is irrelevant, iPad owns a ridiculously commanding lead in the tablet market and Android will not be in a position to catch up to them within the next few years if at all. The only competitive presence in the tablet segment that iOS is going to be worried about is Windows 8.


The number of Android vs iOS devices is relevant unless you are Tivo in which case you ignore the mobile trends and release a product that only works on only one platform. It's been almost 8 months now.

The tablet market is maturing, and like the iPhone, the iPad will begin to fade as the market leader. The tipping point will likely be in 2014.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13...of-shipments-apple-still-controls-nearly-half


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

I guess the point that I'm making that Windows 8 is not just tablet OS, it comes installed on every new desktop and laptop PC, so the installed user base will *explode* in the coming quarters and any gains Android made will be wiped out.

TiVo should focus on streaming with Windows 8, that would take care of desktops, laptops and an admittedly miniscule tablet market. *Then* Android.

Of course if they can work on both at the same time (Since it seems they farm the work out), then the more platforms the better. My preference is only valid in a serial development environment.


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## Adaptel (Nov 6, 2009)

I misspoke when I said my TiVo stream was generating monthly fees. I just get a bunch of charges on my credit card from TiVo every month (have 4 tivos). Another gripe BTW, they don't seem to have an easy way to "sync" billing so that I get one charge for all 4 devices.

I cannot find the original ads, but I am 100% positive that their website and promotional email DID SAY "Android version coming soon". Here is an interview with Tivo CEO Thomas Rogers from September 2012 who says "Right now it is only for IOS but there will be Android capability" (around 5:50min in video). 
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/new-...d-ceo-rogers-says-D8gDY9eJQyaN283pCKwP0w.html


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

As others have said, "soon" is relative, and since there was no time frame mentioned there is still plenty of time for "soon" to happen.

This is Tivo we're talking about, if you've been here since 2009 then you know that everything comes out late with them, and usually only 3/4 baked.

There's no false advertising, only differing interpretations, and the fact that you didn't realize there wasn't a monthly fee until it was pointed out suggests that you might have made other mistakes in what you read/saw vs. reality.


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## PCurry57 (Feb 27, 2012)

Philmatic said:


> I guess the point that I'm making that Windows 8 is not just tablet OS, it comes installed on every new desktop and laptop PC, so the installed user base will *explode* in the coming quarters and any gains Android made will be wiped out.
> 
> TiVo should focus on streaming with Windows 8, that would take care of desktops, laptops and an admittedly miniscule tablet market. *Then* Android.
> 
> Of course if they can work on both at the same time (Since it seems they farm the work out), then the more platforms the better. My preference is only valid in a serial development environment.


Many people who have bought new Windows 8 laptops and pc's have taken them back. the % of returns is higher than prev. Windows 8 Phones are difficult to use as a phone to many steps required to make a call. many people have an investment in XP/VISTA/Win 7 compatible software that does not run on Win 8.

Windows 8 is a FAIL!


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I know how to make those monthly cc statements easier to read. Lifetime. (Sorry, could not resist)


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

PCurry57 said:


> Many people who have bought new Windows 8 laptops and pc's have taken them back. the % of returns is higher than prev. Windows 8 Phones are difficult to use as a phone to many steps required to make a call. many people have an investment in XP/VISTA/Win 7 compatible software that does not run on Win 8.
> 
> Windows 8 is a FAIL!


The fact that you can't tell the difference between Windows 8 Phone, RT and Pro tells me that I shouldn't pay attention to you.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The Stream uses encrypted HLS for streaming. Android did not support encrypted HLS until version 4.0. Before the Nexus and Kindle Fired HD tablets became available in late summer/early fall there was only one Android tablet on the market, made by Samsung, that even had Android 4.0+ and it's sales figures weren't very good. By contrast all iOS devices support encrypted HLS so while their percentages might be less then Android overall, the percentage capable of using the Stream are much, much higher. 

Also Windows 8 does not natively support encrypted HLS. However there is a company that sells an SDK that allows you to add encrypted HLS support to a Windows 8 app. Although they only released the update with encryption support at NAB a few weeks ago, so even if TiVo could use that it's likely a ways off.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

So what that says to me is choosing encrypted HLS was a stupid decision seeing as it locks you in to fewer platforms.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> The Stream uses encrypted HLS for streaming. Android did not support encrypted HLS until version 4.0. Before the Nexus and Kindle Fired HD tablets became available in late summer/early fall there was only one Android tablet on the market, made by Samsung, that even had Android 4.0+ and it's sales figures weren't very good. By contrast all iOS devices support encrypted HLS so while their percentages might be less then Android overall, the percentage capable of using the Stream are much, much higher.
> 
> Also Windows 8 does not natively support encrypted HLS. However there is a company that sells an SDK that allows you to add encrypted HLS support to a Windows 8 app. Although they only released the update with encryption support at NAB a few weeks ago, so even if TiVo could use that it's likely a ways off.


That maybe all well and good but it is old news. At this time 56% Android devices are running 4.0 or higher. Things change and time moves on, so should Tivo.


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## jjd_87 (Jan 31, 2011)

atmuscarella said:


> That maybe all well and good but it is old news. At this time 56% Android devices are running 4.0 or higher. Things change and time moves on, so should Tivo.


So the question is half of Android more than all of iOS? (I genuinely don't know) And then what percentages of TiVo users of have 4.0 or higher? (Not necessarily 56% could be more or less). Android is still so fragmented no matter what you say.


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## Austin Bike (Feb 9, 2003)

There are a handful of issues here:

1. Yes, Android has higher market share, but that is for all devices, including phones. While stream works on phones, it was probably not the primary market, tablets were. iOS has a much larger install base of tablets. For the first time, Android has taken the tablet lead, that should be expected to continue. But that is a "moving forward" and future statement, having larger share for one quarter does not break the several year head start that apple has.

2. Even though Android share is above apple, it is not clear that all of those tablets have the latest OS. They should, but "Android" is a generic statement, the market is highly fragmented on both devices and OS versions.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/01/idc-tablet-share-q1-2013/

Now, the other issue is buying something with the expectation of future support. No offense, but when you buy something you should expect that what you are getting is what you will have. This is precisely why I have not bought a mini yet. When it supports the features I want (that they have said they will) I will buy, not before.

Early adopters generally get burned.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jjd_87 said:


> So the question is half of Android more than all of iOS? (I genuinely don't know) And then what percentages of TiVo users of have 4.0 or higher? (Not necessarily 56% could be more or less). Android is still so fragmented no matter what you say.


I am not aware that I said anything about Android fragmentation. I quoted an article that showed 56% of Android devices are running Android 4.0 or higher. The post after mine quoted an article showing new Android tablets outsold new iOS tablets by a significant number.

My point is simple; things have changed significantly in the last year and TiVo needs to move with the market and support Android devices soon not latter.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

Philmatic said:


> TiVo should focus on streaming with Windows 8, that would take care of desktops, laptops and an admittedly miniscule tablet market. *Then* Android.


Tivo should focus on streaming to *web browsers regardless of platform* and Android support. Browser streaming will appeal to almost 100% of current owners, and Android support will address Tivo's inability to comprehend evolving mobile trends.

I'd said this before, but I'll say it again since I genuinely don't understand: Tivo is a small company, and small companies are usually more limber -- can change directions quickly and can adapt to emerging trends faster than a large corporation. Is Tivo culture to blame for these missteps? Is it poor leadership that stuck their heads in the sand when interpreting changing mobile trends? It just seems someone has iOS blinders on when leading a company that should be platform neutral. Customers should be able to see Tivo, see what they can do with their laptop or tablet or phone, and then move forward.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

mr_smits said:


> Tivo should focus on streaming to *web browsers regardless of platform* and Android support. Browser streaming will appeal to almost 100% of current owners, and Android support will address Tivo's inability to comprehend evolving mobile trends.
> 
> I'd said this before, but I'll say it again since I genuinely don't understand: Tivo is a small company, and small companies are usually more limber -- can change directions quickly and can adapt to emerging trends faster than a large corporation. Is Tivo culture to blame for these missteps? Is it poor leadership that stuck their heads in the sand when interpreting changing mobile trends? It just seems someone has iOS blinders on when leading a company that should be platform neutral. Customers should be able to see Tivo, see what they can do with their laptop or tablet or phone, and then move forward.


The issue here is locking down the content in ways that do NOT expand on to television screens, Tivo has been very consistent in this approach. My take has always been that they're very cautious around ticking off the content providers, and staying away from any alternative big screen display is their solution.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

moyekj said:


> So what that says to me is choosing encrypted HLS was a stupid decision seeing as it locks you in to fewer platforms.


It's a well established standard that meets the content providers requirements for protection. Plus it's super simple. Basically just a a TS stream broken up into small chunks for easy seeking.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

dianebrat said:


> The issue here is locking down the content in ways that do NOT expand on to television screens, Tivo has been very consistent in this approach. My take has always been that they're very cautious around ticking off the content providers, and staying away from any alternative big screen display is their solution.


Tivo may be timid in regards to potentially upsetting content providers, but that doesn't explain their inability to adapt to the changing mobile landscape. I know there is clear love for iOS in the Tivo leadership, but at a certain point you have to adjust to the reality and make compatibility with other OS and formats a priority.

Edit: I know Android streaming is supposedly on the way. What about browser streaming? Windows 8? Etc? Tivo is playing catch up to the market instead of leading it.


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## Austin Bike (Feb 9, 2003)

Streaming to a tablet or phone is "safer" because it is a more "closed" environment.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> It's a well established standard that meets the content providers requirements for protection. Plus it's super simple. Basically just a a TS stream broken up into small chunks for easy seeking.


It's a well established standard that doesn't run on the next generation of windows and doesn't run on 44% of the market leading mobile OS.

Tell me again how it's a well established standard?

People making excuses for the fact that the stream is locked in to a single OS are completely out of line. Especially using the "soon is relative" argument.

We shouldn't have to coddle our hardware and service providers. They should meet our demand.

I literally have not bought a stream because it doesn't support multiple operating systems and we're a multiple operating system household.

I don't know how poorly the stream is doing, but if it's a total disaster (as I suspect it is) it's because of their lack of platform support. And I imagine they are getting regular returns on it, because everytime I get an ad for it, it just says "Stream to your mobile device" and I have to click 3+ times to find the list of supported devices to figure out "****, still just iOS."

Stop making excuses for TiVo's exceptionally slow development lifecycle. It's an embarrassment. I let it go for the TiVo boxes themselves (stability is EXTREMELY important for a cable box, and a slow produce lifecycle is GOOD there) but absolutely unacceptable for the world of mobile OS's. They should be 3-4 revisions down the line by now and available for all of the major mobile OS's, including a native Win8 app.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

Austin Bike said:


> Streaming to a tablet or phone is "safer" because it is a more "closed" environment.


You mean streaming to the iPad? Netflix and Amazon don't seem concerned about streaming to computers.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mr_smits said:


> You mean streaming to the iPad? Netflix and Amazon don't seem concerned about streaming to computers.


Ya the BS about security is getting about as old as the BS about supporting other plat forms. When it is easy to find multiple examples of companies supporting multiple plat forms and providing several ways of accessing content outside of ones home I call BS on all of it and put the fault solely on TiVo. Perhaps if TiVo focused on pushing the envelop instead of waiting to see what everyone else has done they might gain a little more success with the stand alone DVR/streaming media markets. Playing it safe sure hasn't done much for them.


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## Austin Bike (Feb 9, 2003)

mr_smits said:


> You mean streaming to the iPad? Netflix and Amazon don't seem concerned about streaming to computers.


Bigger companies with more lawyers.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between being right and having all of the time and money to prove you are right.


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## quikah (Dec 16, 2006)

Austin Bike said:


> Bigger companies with more lawyers.
> 
> Keep in mind that there is a difference between being right and having all of the time and money to prove you are right.


This argument doesn't even make any sense. Does streaming to iOS somehow make them immune to litigation? There are secure ways to stream to android, iOS and desktops. Netflix, Amazon, HBO, etc. are able to do it. TiVo just chose to use the least portable method available. It was probably entirely due to development costs.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Grakthis said:


> It's a well established standard that doesn't run on the next generation of windows and doesn't run on 44% of the market leading mobile OS.
> 
> Tell me again how it's a well established standard?


HLS is an open standard based on well known technologies. It uses MPEG Transport Streams for storage, which have been used in broadcasting for 20+ years, and HTTPS for encryption which has been used on the web since it's inception.

The fact that it's supported by 56% percent of Android devices and 100% of iOS devices makes it supported by a bigger percentage of the total market then any similar technology. In fact I've done a lot of research in this area and the only alternatives are proprietary technologies with licensing fees or even worse OS support. In fact the the reason MS didn't include HLS in Win8 is because they are trying to push their own proprietary technology for video streaming instead. (like always) Eventually they will crack and add HLS. In the mean time there are 3rd party alternatives to add HLS to Win8.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mr_smits said:


> Netflix and Amazon don't seem concerned about streaming to computers.


They don't? Is/was there Silverlight (DRMed player) on Linux?


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