# New details on upcoming Australian TiVo



## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

Just come across some info on the upcoming TiVo for Oz presented at CES....

In Summary
Positives
Kidzone - Enhanced parental control as far as I can see
100+ Free internet TV channels includes wish list searching
Internet movie on demand (expected to be PPV)
Series 3 with dual DVB tuners.
TiVo to go download of content to PCs etc.
Creation of DIY channels that can be shared with other TiVo users.

Negatives
No news on price or launch date.
Inclusion of ability to have inserted unskipable ads (prevention of FF, REW) both within programs and within menus 
No news on disk size

Reference
http://www.theage.com.au/news/artic...1199554709370.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

According to DVB - http://www.dvb.org/dvb-deployment-data.xls
Australia uses 7MHz channels on UHF and VHF - the UK has 8MHz on UHF. They use 8K exclusively whereas we use a mix of 2K and 8K (although we'll be at 8K only for ASO), they also use 64 QAM and we use a mix of 16 and 64.

So, the AUS$500 question (£225 + shipping and tax) is..... Will it pick up our FreeView?

Do US TiVo's have to connect to the Internet for their guide updates - or can they use an EPG provided by Digital TV?

I don't see any reason why it couldn't use the Internet channels - unless it uses IP Geolocation.


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## alunj (Oct 9, 2000)

They dont right now. My US Humax does all the internet stuff just fine.
Only problem is I need as US address credit card to use amazon unbox on it.


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## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

terryeden said:


> According to DVB -
> So, the AUS$500 question (£225 + shipping and tax) is..... Will it pick up our FreeView?


Going in the other direction, my Freeview boxes all worked in Australia but the lack of a dual VHF/UHF tuner meant I was not able to get all the channels.

I would expect taking a digital tuner in the other direction would work just fine. The downer would be on the HD broadcasts. Australia uses the same encoding for SD and HD - DVB-T broadcasts. When/if HD terrestrial is launched in the UK it will be on DVB-T2 using MPEG-4 I believe so even if the Australian TiVo can pick up Freeview it wont be compatible when HD starts.


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## bignoise (Oct 7, 2000)

sfalvey said:


> I would expect taking a digital tuner in the other direction would work just fine.


Well that sounds like something that can be tested. How much is a bog standard Australian DTT box? Anyone fancy ordering one and trying it out in this country?


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## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

A cheapo SD box goes for about $50 (20 quid approx). Sometimes you can get them as low as $40 when they are on special.

Ironically ordering from web sites in Oz is often more expensive than buying from stores so YMMV on the price.


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## bignoise (Oct 7, 2000)

Interesting. By the way, have you advance registered with TiVo? They're looking for beta testers for the Australian one right now...


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## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

Oh yes. 

The email went out on the Oztivo mailling list last week. TiVo emailed out the invites to those on its own mailing list a week later they will notify successful applicants for the beta program soon hopefully.

sending positive thoughts, sending positive thoughts, sending positive thoughts,


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

terryeden said:


> According to DVB - http://www.dvb.org/dvb-deployment-data.xls
> Australia uses 7MHz channels on UHF and VHF - the UK has 8MHz on UHF. They use 8K exclusively whereas we use a mix of 2K and 8K (although we'll be at 8K only for ASO), they also use 64 QAM and we use a mix of 16 and 64.
> 
> So, the AUS$500 question (£225 + shipping and tax) is..... Will it pick up our FreeView?


AIUI there is a degree of compatibility between the UK and Aus implementation of DVB-T (apart from the UK being UHF only).

Apart from the BBC/C4/ITV/Five HD tests in London which were 8k - the UK is entirely 2k 16QAM and 2k 64QAM AIUI. However when the Crystal Palace tests were done prior to Freeview launching (after ITVDigital folded) 8k was trialled for receiver compatibility - and all boxes and IDTVs apart from the very early ONDigital models were fine. 8k is more robust than 2k AIUI - meaning 24Mbs 8k 64QAM is likely to match 18Mbs 2k 16QAM for coverage - the only real reason we are 2k only is that the very early silicon available when we launched DTT was 2k only... 8k also supports SFNs where multiple transmitters can use the same frequency, allowing "on-channel" relays and fill-ins to be used.

However AIUI there are also some differences when it comes to certain aspects of the standards in terms of housekeeping. It could be that most DVB-T firmware copes with both these days - as OEM manufacturers probably want a single model to sell in all DVB territories these days - though in Aus there are both SD-only and SD/HD boxes for their ageing DVB-T + MPEG2 HD standard.

(The UK is likely to be DVB-T2 + H264 for HD - eventually)



> Do US TiVo's have to connect to the Internet for their guide updates - or can they use an EPG provided by Digital TV?


The US models use internet connectivity. AIUI Tivo provides more metadata than was provided by the DVB-T and PSIP EPGs used in the UK and US (and PSIP is OTA only and very poorly implemented compared to the UK 7 day EPG on Freeview). Freeview Playback has added some more metadata in the UK - not sure about Aus - but Tivo still has more I believe (stuff like actors etc.)



> I don't see any reason why it couldn't use the Internet channels - unless it uses IP Geolocation.


Though the listings would presumably be useless as you'd be getting them for the wrong geographic location... US boxes with a US EPG, Aus boxes with an Aus EPG etc...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Sneals2000 said:


> Though the listings would presumably be useless as you'd be getting them for the wrong geographic location... US boxes with a US EPG, Aus boxes with an Aus EPG etc...


Especially as I believe Service Numbers cannot be hacked or altered on Tivo S3 models.

Thus the only way an Australian Tivo S3 would be made to work in the UK if it was with the blessing of Tivo Inc...........


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## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

Something else I noticed about the DVB-T boxes in Australia. As there is no MHEG interactive content none of the boxes I have seen supports "Press Red" or "Text" etc. All the boxes have a red, blue, yellow, green button but they tend to be assigned to box specific functions such as aspect ratio or audio stream selection. 

Given that, I wouldn't expect the Australian TiVo to have MHEG support either.


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

sfalvey said:


> Given that, I wouldn't expect the Australian TiVo to have MHEG support either.


No great loss - unless it affects subtitles.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

This is probably just gossip...but:
http://business.smh.com.au/tivo-could-be-binned-in-airwaves-war/20080305-1x7v.html


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## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

From the Sydney Morning Herald last week...



> Another TV network executive says the collaboration by broadcasters on the bundle of channels to be called FreeView is unprecedented. It has already resulted in the Seven Network freezing launch plans for its TiVo digital recorder service until at least the middle of this month while it decides whether to proceed, delay or bin the project.


and CNET commentary on the issue.
and Financial Review on it not being stocked by major retailers.

... even though the beta trialling is underway looks like they might drop it.  Fingers crossed they make the right choice here and launch soon but I am now beginning to doubt it...


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

OK, why would that affect their plans? I don't see how the two are really related.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

dswallow said:


> OK, why would that affect their plans? I don't see how the two are really related.


If the FTA Australian Freeview project sees the launch of PVR boxes with no monthly subscription charge with a decent range of channels to record from then why will anyone want to buy a more expensive Tivo box with a high monthly subscription to pay is the obviously line of thinking here.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Because TiVo is better 

What's the likelihood that an Australian freeview 'PVR' will be any better than the rubbish available here under that category?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> Because TiVo is better


When did being better ever guarantee anything in the nasty commercial world?

Look at Sky HD and V+ vs the outcome for Tivo UK. Or Betmax vs VHS etc, etc. Or look at Casio watches - consistently rubbish over many years but successful due to huge marketing clout and a worldwide distribution network



> What's the likelihood that an Australian freeview 'PVR' will be any better than the rubbish available here under that category?


Well if they are lucky then they might manage to arrange for everything to work like Freeview Playback with proper Metadata and Series Links etc. But probably as the rubbish recorders with only one tuner and no Metadata will be chepaer the dumb public will buy those in droves instead.


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> Because TiVo is better
> 
> What's the likelihood that an Australian freeview 'PVR' will be any better than the rubbish available here under that category?


... and if they advertise the Tivo advantage the way they did over here then they're dead before they start


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## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

OK so latest reports look like its happening after all.

AU$500 for the box (approx UKP200), however the proposed AU$10-12 (UKP4-4.80) subscription was the thing that made some of the retailers baulk. Your average Aussie would consider that too high and as a result the subscription cost will be "slashed" but what too they are not saying.

Launch still expected "before the Olympics".

Enjoy....

Gizmodo
Afr


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

sfalvey said:


> AU$500 for the box (approx UKP200), however the proposed AU$10-12 (UKP4-4.80) subscription was the thing that made some of the retailers baulk. Your average Aussie would consider that too high and as a result the subscription cost will be "slashed" but what too they are not saying.


The obvious trick is no subscription for 6 or 12 months to lure people in so they are then hooked.

The proposed subscription of only 5GBP a month already looks very cheap. I don't see how they can do it for less in a country with such a relatively small population compared to the USA.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I don't see how they can do it for less in a country with such a relatively small population compared to the USA.


If they have an agreement with the partner Australian network to receive listings data in a compatible format, then they should just be able to run it through an automated process to turn it into TiVo guide data. And the service will probably be hosted in the US anyway (as ours is) so their capital investment in Australia should be low.

The UK guide data cost is an anomaly, unfortunately for us, which is why the lifetime option is still a bit of a bargain :up:


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Unless tivo UK would launch with a SKY CAM, I would not pay another &#163;10 PCM for recording freeview..
I understand (apart from the UK T1) tivo have dropped the option of a lifetime service.

A freeview tivo series 3 and &#163;10 PCM, I don't think I could.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> A freeview tivo series 3 and £10 PCM, I don't think I could.


How about £3.99 per month?


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> How about £3.99 per month?


I can get a dozen freeview devices which will twin record, with season passes, get guide data for 14 days. A Tivo S3 can not be hacked, and apart from the interface, I can not see a advantage of having one that may cost hundreds of pounds and then a subscription???

I know this is a tivo forum, and we all love the product, but I don't see the attraction to something that costs when they can be had for peanuts for free???

Am I the only one?


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

6022tivo said:


> I don't see the attraction to something that costs when they can be had for peanuts for free???


Where can a TiVo be had for peanuts for free?

The problem is you're comparing apples to oranges and suggesting that because you can get apples for free you should be able to get oranges for free also. But TiVo and 'other recorders' are *not* the same thing. That's why TiVo costs more.

I agree that £10 per month is not feasible these days, but in the US, new TiVos come with prepaid one, two or three year packages that work out very cheap with no monthly cost at all in the initial period, then it's something like $6.95 per month after that, or you can buy another two or three years.

(NB. nit pickers: please don't bother to point out that it's actually $7.95 or there is no three year plan. My point is that there are ways round the £10 per month hurdle and TiVo is already using them to good effect in the US.)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> I can get a dozen freeview devices which will twin record, with season passes, get guide data for 14 days. A Tivo S3 can not be hacked, and apart from the interface, I can not see a advantage of having one that may cost hundreds of pounds and then a subscription???


I thought their Series Link did not yet work on most channels apart from the BBC and doesn't work as well as a Season Pass.

Also what are the Wishlist functions like on Freeview Playback? Plus no Suggestions.

And what about moving through the program. Is there trick play like jumping back and forth a quarter or half an hour or jumping from the start to the end of the program and back?

Not to mention the likely dismal choice of channels on Freeview once Sky remove their three channels and replace them with subscription Sky Picnic. If that is OfCoN allows Sky to go ahead with Sky Picnic as I expect they will to ensure the continued support of the Murdoch newspapers at the General Election for New Labour. Just look at who is CEO of OfCoN and his past employment background.:down:


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> Where can a TiVo be had for peanuts for free?


On Ebay or even Freecycle providing it has no sub or Cachecard.

However I think the point you meant to make was that a decent Freeview Playback box is around £200 for the Humax or TVonics or more than that for a Topfield. And they will be redundant and need to replaced in 18 months time when HD on Freeview launches.

A BBC/ITV HD Freesat PVR would be a better idea and more future proof but not until they can also receive all the C4 and Five television channels.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> I can get a dozen freeview devices which will twin record, with season passes, get guide data for 14 days.?


Odd as I thought there were only three Freeview Playback boxes on the market.

The rest are all dumb dual tuner PVRs with simple timers (not Freeview Playback boxes) that have their recording of your favourite series screwed when its showing time changes or it is not on air for a week.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

You have to look at what the customer wants....

Recording features, the series links season passes or whatever you want to call them are a bonus.. I thought they worked with most freeview recorders, sorry if only the BBC use them.

The other tivo Bonus features I don't think people who have not used them would be bothered with. Wishlists, tivo central???? (Who still uses that??) are useless.

They would have to shake up the subscription like you said to get me looking. Maybe 12 months built in or something, and it would have to be HD freeview, although getting SKY to open its encryption cams thingies may be the way to go.


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## chimaera (Nov 13, 2000)

Pete77 said:


> However I think the point you meant to make was that a decent Freeview Playback box is around £200 for the Humax or TVonics or more than that for a Topfield. And they will be redundant and need to replaced in 18 months time when HD on Freeview launches.


Hardly redundant, or necessarily needing to be replaced, since they will still work perfectly with SD. How many times 18 months is it since your ancient TV became redundant and needed to be replaced


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

chimaera said:


> Hardly redundant, or necessarily needing to be replaced, since they will still work perfectly with SD. How many times 18 months is it since your ancient TV became redundant and needed to be replaced


My point is why ditch Tivo for a Freeview PVR when a better replacement with no monthly subs and that can also do HD recording is only 12 to 18 months away. If I didn't have a Tivo with a Lifetime Sub, Tivoweb and a lot of recording capacity and was just Jo Bloggs with no PVR at all then I might see things quite differently.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> A Tivo S3 can not be hacked


Yes it can; it's just a little more complicated.

(PS, your definition of "little" may vary!)


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> Am I the only one?


No.


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## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

There is a huge difference between the UK Freeview and the newly branded Australian FreeView. In the UK there are far more channels than in Australia.

If Seven Network can provide a business plan and a deal that TiVo can sign off on with a maximum consumer base of 20m vs the 60m+ in the UK with a channel base of (at the moment) around 7-8 channels on FreeView vs. what, 30 odd on Freeview then surely TiVo would have a much bigger opportunity in the UK even if it was on Freeview only.

Seven will be selling/facilitating the sale and delivery of content via the new TiVo as well so even though there are a very limited number of channels there will be PPV and announced plans are around 150+ channels of free content via the IP connection.

Name me one single UK Freeview PVR that can do that without a subscription.

Would I buy a cheapo PVR for a couple of hundred and no sub vs. purchasing access to far more content for a bit more up front and a small sub?..... Hmmm... Let me think....

As blindlemon said, apples and oranges.


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## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

> THE Seven Media Group will launch its TiVo digital video recorder in July after a strategic overhaul that includes a surprise move to scrap a planned monthly subscription fee for the broadband-enabled service.


Almost unbelievable

Still no mention on launch price.

Slightly off topic I have been watching this thread regarding the DVB reference model for a little while. Looks like they are taking the newly developed Aussie model as a potential for international sale. Interesting....


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