# What does the monthly cost pay for?



## mikesown (Nov 15, 2005)

Why does TiVO charge a monthly fee for service? I can understand that they charge a subscription fee for the series2 to pay for the inital cost of the TiVO, but why have a service fee on a series3? Is TiVO really loosing money on each box sold at $500 wholesale, and $800 retail? Does TiVO make up their guide data by hand? Isn't the guide data freely availible anyway, free of charge? To me, the monthly fee seems outrageous. Pay $800 for a DVR, then pay $14 a month. TiVO's software is great, no question about that, but after a year, you end up paying over $150 just for the privilage of having the TiVO. It's hard to believe that this cost is going towards guide data that is freely availible, and it's very hard to believe that this is going towards software development, since most things are already implemented in the code that are needed. There's not any heavy software development left for TiVO to do, only minor bugfixes. 

Is the monthly fee unfair? Is it justified? Am I wrong in thinking that this is just TiVO's excuse to dip into my wallet for the mere privilage of owning a TiVO?


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

I think a good portion of the fee goes to R+D. Also you have to figure there is a budget for tech support, website, marketing, Teleworld infomercials, etc.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

Before you go ranting and raving, you should do some of your own due diligence. Tivo is not exactly a profitable company. Tivo did manage to raise a significant (~$65 million) amount of cash in a secondary stock offering a few weeks ago (the secondary was completed 1-2 days before the Tivo's injunction against Echostar was blocked). But Tivo has in general struggled to make even a meager profit.

You can find a lot of free information at:
http://finance.yahoo.com
Tivo's Nasdaq stock symbol is TIVO.

Look at TIVO's financials (quarterly 10Q and annual 10K reports -- Full Filings at Edgar Online) that are available from links for SEC Filings.


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## Phil W (Oct 24, 2006)

I'd just be thrilled if my subscription paid for a timely update to the massive slowdown that 7.3.1 brought me over 2 months ago.


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## wscannell (Dec 7, 2003)

The guide data that keeps your TiVo up to date with what is on TV is not free. It costs TiVo to subscribe to the guide and to operate the servers that allow you to download the data.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

It is a clever way that TiVo has found to extort money from you every month AFAIC. You pay or your box is disabled. In spite of its many faults it does have nice features - features that should have been completely paid for as part of the box's purchase price.

The only service that YOU get for your money is the guide update (which are available eleswhere at no cost but unusable by your TiVo), periodic poorly done "Updates" that screw up the box for months at a time, and access to one of the poorest customer service organizations on the planet.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

What is AFAIC? As far as I... conclude?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

classicX said:


> What is AFAIC? As far as I... conclude?


"As Far As I'm Concerned" - it's common chat shorthand.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

RoyK said:


> It is a clever way that TiVo has found to extort money from you every month AFAIC. You pay or your box is disabled. In spite of its many faults it does have nice features - features that should have been completely paid for as part of the box's purchase price.
> 
> The only service that YOU get for your money is the guide update (which are available eleswhere at no cost but unusable by your TiVo), periodic poorly done "Updates" that screw up the box for months at a time, and access to one of the poorest customer service organizations on the planet.


Extort??? No, you are purchasing a service. The guide data is NOT free. If you get updates via phone line, modem access must be paid for. The entire server infrastructure that gives you guide data and service updates must be paid for. R&D is significant. Regardless of all the idiotic rantings about TiVo's "incompetent programmers", developing and testing software costs time and money.

Just like any other service, if you don't feel that you are getting good value for your $$$, cancel the service!


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I think someone else here said that the fee was for hot tubs and carribian vacations for the TiVo executives....


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

A small portion goes toward guide data. A small portion goes to R&D. Much goes to pay outlandish salaries to incomptetent executives who do not understand that most people hate monthly fees.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

mikesown said:


> Why does TiVO charge a monthly fee for service? I can understand that they charge a subscription fee for the series2 to pay for the inital cost of the TiVO, but why have a service fee on a series3? Is TiVO really loosing money on each box sold at $500 wholesale, and $800 retail?


TiVo is a service company first off, hardware second, TiVo boxes are made and sold so that they can sell the service to them.

The Series3s get no different base service than the Series 2s.

They are sold, initially, as high-end A/V product, just becasue they can, and are getting sales at that pricepoint. Given time, they may lower the price, when the current market is saturated.



> Does TiVO make up their guide data by hand? Isn't the guide data freely availible anyway, free of charge?


No, They buy data from Tribune. For companies like TiVo, the data has to be paid for. For individual private users, we can independantly access Tribune's data free.

TiVo also processes the guide data in their servers, to a form that is easy for the small CPU/RAM in the DVR to process, and the TiVo recording features to use.



> To me, the monthly fee seems outrageous. Pay $800 for a DVR, then pay $14 a month. TiVO's software is great, no question about that, but after a year, you end up paying over $150 just for the privilage of having the TiVO. It's hard to believe that this cost is going towards guide data that is freely availible, and it's very hard to believe that this is going towards software development, since most things are already implemented in the code that are needed. There's not any heavy software development left for TiVO to do, only minor bugfixes.


Again, the guide data is not free to TiVo. The fee also pays fro R&D on new software features, and to see what went wrong with 7.3.1.

You don't tell me TiVo ToGo, G adapters, HME, TiVoGoback, TiVocast, KLdzone, Recently Deleted, are not features that magically appear.



> Is the monthly fee unfair? Is it justified? Am I wrong in thinking that this is just TiVO's excuse to dip into my wallet for the mere privilage of owning a TiVO?


They aren't dipping into your wallet (that is the job of the IRS), you are voluntarily paying the fee.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

All this discussion of how the fee gets spent is interesting, but pointless. 

It's a license fee for use of software that is not available for a flat fee (the way most consumers are used to paying for software). It used to be available for a flat fee (per box), but not anymore.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

It can be argued that software updates benefit TiVo more than they benefit the user. If TiVo didn't update the software with new features the product wouldn't be as fresh and attractive as others in it's class. Also software updates frequently include benefits that add to TiVo's bottom line from ad revenue or merchandising deals. The entire KidZone update was added to sell product to a different market segment and didn't include any feature requests I've seen on this board, except for maybe the undelete. That last I think was TiVo throwing us a bone to justify the update to those that had no need for KidZone.

As an aside, I really wish KidZone had included more things for Kids. As it is all it does is place restrictions on children without any real benefits. When my youngest heard about it she was excited til she learned it would just keep her from watching some shows, shows she had no desire to watch anyway. 

I believe the quote was "ewww gross"


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

mikesown said:


> Why does TiVO charge a monthly fee for service?


Millions of people who back in 2000 it was thought would have purchased a TiVo by now have the same questions.


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## Qwertinsky (Oct 24, 2006)

ping said:


> It's a license fee for use of software that is not available for a flat fee (the way most consumers are used to paying for software). It used to be available for a flat fee (per box), but not anymore.


I certainly am glad my old box is lifetime subscribed. 

Tivo is nice, but it certainly is not worth $15 a month. Specially when I can get an HD DVR from Comcast for $10 a month.

All of the monthly subscribers need to start badgering Tivo to bring back the lifetime option.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Qwertinsky said:


> All of the monthly subscribers need to start badgering Tivo to bring back the lifetime option.


It will never happen. TiVo is happy marketing TiVo to people who want to signup for a contract to pay monthly. It's a much bigger audience than those willing to pay a lot of up front costs.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

FYI monthly on first TiVo is 12.95 - anything higher is a limited time bundle deal where the extra pays the hardware charge.

at one point a few years ago TiVo followed the lead of a then competitor ReplayTV in placing the lifetime subscription cost into the intial purchase price of the TiVo. Pay this amount (I do not recall the exact dollar amount but Probably 500$ or more), take the box home and use it forever without paying anything else.
Sales dropped so TiVo went back to offering the option of lifetime or monthly.

The lifetime at 299$ was a no brainer on the first TiVo but when they rolled out the Multi Service discount of 6.95 it was not so clear cut. Since that equated to 48 months of service before I paid out 299$ I went monthly on my other TiVos as they were hardware I hope to not be using in 3 years. Two will revert back to TiVo Basic and have value as a more or less manual DVR with DVD burning and playback. I am quite happy to have the MSD monthly option on those boxes.

Also at one point HMO was going to cost another one time fee and TTG would have followed suit. Instead TiVo worked to lower costs by making the new features included in the service and moved to a monthly subscription plan. It keeps TiVo needing to keep the product fresh through new features. Yes I pay money out monthly but the value of the TiVo DVRs to me has increased over that time period. A good deal to me. Yes, some have had product problems and that indeed drops the value considerably to them adn they will post with that perspective but I also post my perspective that overall I have found the initial small investment in TiVo DVRs and the monthly cost to be worth every penny.

My cable bill on the other hand has risen for the same or less service overtime and I expect it get worse as I use extended basic cable and expect they will start moving channels off the analog package. Wish they had a forum I could go b!tch in


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## rlc1 (Sep 15, 2003)

Qwertinsky said:


> I certainly am glad my old box is lifetime subscribed.
> 
> Tivo is nice, but it certainly is not worth $15 a month. Specially when I can get an HD DVR from Comcast for $10 a month.
> 
> All of the monthly subscribers need to start badgering Tivo to bring back the lifetime option.


Try getting a Comcast DVR and see if you feel the same. I've got one, and I also have two Tivos. I use the Comcast DVR to record shows that broadcast in HD and watch them on my big-screen TV, and I use Tivo for everything else, and as kind of a backup. Not ready to buy a Tivo S3 at this point. But sometimes I feel it's not worth it to see the shows in HD, because the experience of using the Comcast DVR is so bad. Everything is so awkard; even fast-forwarding through commercials is painful, as the remote seems to have a 2-second delay, etc., etc., etc...


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

January 31st -- 2006; 2005; 2004; 2003; 2002
Net Revenue -- 195,925; 172,055; 141,080; 96,010; 19,397
Net Loss -- (34,398); (79,842); (32,018); (82,261); (160,723)
Cash -- 85,298; 87,245
All dollar amounts in thousands for Fiscal Years Ending on January 31st.

http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001193125-06-080457&Type=HTML

Tivo should have approximately $120 Million now in Cash and Cash Equivalents.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I think I will state the obvious - the problem with TiVo is volume. The above reports showed less than 1.5 million stand alone (SA) TiVo units as of 1/06. If TiVo had 10 or 20 million SA units they would be the next Microsoft. 

No matter what the users of this forum think basically the vast majority of TV viewers have voted that TiVo isn't worth what it costs. 

Think about it over 110 million households with TVs, over 300 million TVs in use, about 25-30 million new TVs sold per year and 95 million households with a VCR and TiVo only has 1.5 million SA units in place, from a sales volume (or financial) point of view TiVo is a bust. 

I think TiVo should have caused a paradigm shift in the way people view TV - but apparently not that many people agree with me. 

Thanks,


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## gtrogue (Jun 18, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> at one point a few years ago TiVo followed the lead of a then competitor ReplayTV in placing the lifetime subscription cost into the intial purchase price of the TiVo. Pay this amount (I do not recall the exact dollar amount but Probably 500$ or more), take the box home and use it forever without paying anything else.
> Sales dropped so TiVo went back to offering the option of lifetime or monthly.


I don't ever remember Tivo selling full priced boxes with full Tivo service. AFAIK, the box and the service have always been sold separately. The only expections were the units that included Tivo Basic service.
I bought my first Tivo in the fall of '99 and it cost me $400 (for a 14 hour model) and I still had to pay separately for service- $9.95/month, $99.95/year, or $200 for lifetime.

And I'm sure Tivo dumped the lifetime service for several reasons. I'd be willing to bet that one of the reasons they went to a straight subscription based model was that not that many people opted for lifetime service anyway, relatively speaking.

As for the Series 3, show me another CE dual tuner HD DVR that costs less than $600 that isn't a clunky hunk of crap, like every leased cable co. DVR.
$600 seems pretty reasonable for the hardware considering that it wasn't that long ago that the same price would only have gotten you a box with a single OTA ATSC tuner. Plus, if you are willing to wait, you'll probably be able to pick up an S3 for about half its current price in the coming year.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> I think TiVo should have caused a paradigm shift in the way people view TV - but apparently not that many people agree with me.
> 
> Thanks,


actually even cable Companies are not pushing out as many DVRs as you would think. I know of no one else in my neighborhood who has any type of DVR except for the few I have turned on to a TiVo.

I think HD is starting to get more adoption than DVRs and DVRs may get an uptick as people call the cable company to upgrade to HD package and get sold a DVR.

I do not understand why more people do not get that a DVR is VERY different from a better VCR.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

gtrogue said:


> I don't ever remember Tivo selling full priced boxes with full Tivo service. AFAIK, the box and the service have always been sold separately. The only expections were the units that included Tivo Basic service.
> I bought my first Tivo in the fall of '99 and it cost me $400 (for a 14 hour model) and I still had to pay separately for service- $9.95/month, $99.95/year, or $200 for lifetime.


 I read about it on this board and I do not think it lasted long as it did not go well. maybe it was some deal where you could buy lifetime in the store it was actually two different things but the customer just paid one price. Like I said I read about it here vs having actually seen it first hand.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> I think I will state the obvious - the problem with TiVo is volume. The above reports showed less than 1.5 million stand alone (SA) TiVo units as of 1/06. If TiVo had 10 or 20 million SA units they would be the next Microsoft.
> 
> No matter what the users of this forum think basically the vast majority of TV viewers have voted that TiVo isn't worth what it costs.
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head. Personally though I feel that the lackluster numbers are a result of high prices and ignorance. First, until recently TiVo was not an affordable product. It was priced ridiculously high for what in most consumers eyes was a glorified VCR without portability. For the most part that perception remains for those people without a home network, or with an S3. TiVo worked hard to add portability but it still is limited, so in a sense it's inferior to VHS. Second, TiVo is hard to describe on paper and again until recently had a major drawback. You couldn't record and watch TV at the same time. Again the VCR pulls ahead. So in the minds of the average consumer TiVo is an inferior VCR that locks you into watching one show at a time and it's expensive. 12.95/month for a VCR?!

Ok, now everyone here knows the real difference, but based on TiVo's sales numbers this product is clearly not working with the general public. TiVo has made some important changes however. Dual Tuner S2 and S3 HD devices that finally lets a user watch and record two shows. (Should have been there from the beginning) For a limited subset of users we can now take shows to a friends house or loan them via DVD, take them on the road with TiVo2Go, and transfer shows between TiVo's in the house. That's not enough however. The average user generally doesn't know about any of this or care. To them the sub is still too high to pay for a VCR.

Unfortunately I think it's too late for TiVo to become a mainstream product on it's own, thus the new track with the S3 to the higher end crowd. A crowd that is interested in AV equipment and does it's research before making a purchase. So TiVo has made the decision, "If sales are gonna suck and volume is going to be low anyway, why not accept that we have a niche product and move on?"

Edit:
The first TiVo's should have had the Standby function on the TiVo central screen. Call it "Watch Live TV" and for the Full Live TV features call that "Watch TiVo" The standby function is entirely too difficult to use on a SA S2.


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## gtrogue (Jun 18, 2001)

Tivo's biggest problem, and it has always been their biggest problem, is that people don't know they need Tivo until they have Tivo.
I don't know a single person that has ever owned a Tivo that would ever consider not having a DVR again, and if they have a choice they would choose another Tivo over any other type of DVR.

On the other hand, I know people that use the POS's the cable companies provide, like my sister and BIL, and they are indifferent to DVR's. To them a DVR is just a VCR that doesn't use tape, and if you are using a cable co. DVR that is about what it is. Only the Tivo experience makes people true believers.

I had a Motorola HD DVR box from Comcast and after about two weeks of using it I decided that Tivo was more important to me than recording HD. The only way I would ever consider using a cable co. DVR again is if it is running Tivo software.

For all the complainers, cancel your Tivo service and pay the cable co. $10-$14 a month for their box and then decide how much that $12.95/month to Tivo is worth to you.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

I was trying to describe to 3 friends the other night why Tivo is better than whoever's cable company's dvr.

I tried the software setup (they said it's the same as theirs)
I tried the reliability (they said they either didn't have a problem or didn't care enough)
I tried everything I could think of.

what finally got a big OOOHHHHH that's AWESOME out of them....

multi-room viewing

I said how we record w/ our 3 tivo's (1 is a dummy box, no tivo hooked up to it right now)
and transfer shows between them. We told them how we record a few things per time slot and watch them in WHATEVER room we want.

That got them! I think that is what would get them to switch over to Tivo if anything. 

MRV and TTG are 2 of the main reasons why I love tivo, that and the reliability of the software


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

gtrogue said:


> I had a Motorola HD DVR box from Comcast and after about two weeks of using it I decided that Tivo was more important to me than recording HD. The only way I would ever consider using a cable co. DVR again is if it is running Tivo software.


Maggie and I have pretty much decided that we have to do this setup next year when we get an HDtv

we have 3 s2's right now, and DirecTV, we will probably get the HD direcTV box and hook it up to our main tv, BUT we will also hook up a dummy s2 box (networked but not recording) and then have the other 2 s2's record everything!!

If and WHEN the direcTV HD box misses something, we will have it backed up in SD on an S2, no big deal.

I will not trust anything but a tivo, and will ALWAYS record ALL important shows on a TIVO, even if it means recording the exact same thing in HD and SD


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> I don't know a single person that has ever owned a Tivo that would ever consider not having a DVR again, and if they have a choice they would choose another Tivo over any other type of DVR.


This board is full of people who will not get another Tivo - because they currently have lifetime service and will not buy another Tivo if it is not an option. I will never pay a monthly fee for a DVR. Neither will the majority of "regular" people. There was a Tivo article on Digg today, and there are many many comments by people who are going to MythTV rather than pay monthly fees. Put simply, there is no loyalty to a company that requires monthly fees. Tivo may be nicer & easier to set up than Myth boxes, but not enough to warrant the monthly price.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Atomike said:


> This board is full of people who will not get another Tivo - because they currently have lifetime service and will not buy another Tivo if it is not an option. I will never pay a monthly fee for a DVR. Neither will the majority of "regular" people. There was a Tivo article on Digg today, and there are many many comments by people who are going to MythTV rather than pay monthly fees. Put simply, there is no loyalty to a company that requires monthly fees. Tivo may be nicer & easier to set up than Myth boxes, but not enough to warrant the monthly price.


ummm don't most cable co's dvr's cost a montly fee????


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## jkalnin (Jan 8, 2003)

As it goes now I am no longer paying anything for my Tivo. My lifetime has already paid for itself, and I love the free updates (even the ones that slow my guide down to a halt). 

Now comes the hard question: if my current Tivo dies do I replace it and pay a monthly fee? Really, I can't say I would. Comcast DVR does enough that it would satisify me.

The removal of the lifetime service is probably the craziest decision Tivo has ever made. They should have just made it more expensive.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

jkalnin said:


> As it goes now I am no longer paying anything for my Tivo. My lifetime has already paid for itself, and I love the free updates (even the ones that slow my guide down to a halt).
> 
> Now comes the hard question: if my current Tivo dies do I replace it and pay a monthly fee? Really, I can't say I would. Comcast DVR does enough that it would satisify me.
> 
> The removal of the lifetime service is probably the craziest decision Tivo has ever made. They should have just made it more expensive.


do you just have 1 tivo? Current people with a lifetime unit (like myself) are the perfect people to get multiple tivo's. get up to 5 i believe for just 6.95 a month.

I know I could never live w/o MRV


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MikeMar said:


> I was trying to describe to 3 friends the other night why Tivo is better than whoever's cable company's dvr.
> 
> I tried the software setup (they said it's the same as theirs)
> I tried the reliability (they said they either didn't have a problem or didn't care enough)
> ...


That's what I've seen before as well. MRV is something the other DVR's don't have that is very nice. Especially to people with children.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Stormspace said:


> That's what I've seen before as well. MRV is something the other DVR's don't have that is very nice. Especially to people with children.


I think there are TONS of reasons why MRV is awesome

Don't have to worry about room.

We record majority of our prime time shows on our living room tivo on high quality, (250 gig drive) so it eats up space, and we don't watch them that fast, so they build up quickly. We can keep them on there and mrv down random shows like friends and simpsons when we want, but they don't take up room on it.

for children, do you mean you just mrv in shows to their room? or down to the main tivo when the adults want to watch something?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

One of the main reasons most people are not willing to pay extra for a Tivo is that they have a life. They realize TV is just entertainment. If they want a DVR, they can get one that will do 95% of what they want, 95% of the time from the cable company, without paying Tivo $13 a month plus the purchase price.


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## Stephen Tu (May 10, 1999)

> You couldn't record and watch TV at the same time. Again the VCR pulls ahead.


Eh?? No VCR lets you record + watch a previously recorded program at the same time like the Tivo has since the beginning. VCRs let you bypass the VCR recording & watch live TV via the TV's tuner, but Tivo has always had the exact same option (with splitter or using standby option) even before the DT units. This has never been a VCR advantage, except for people with misconceptions about how to hookup for watch + record.

I think the main problem with Tivo not catching on in greater numbers is cost combined with people not understanding the paradigm shift to near video on demand. Average person thinks "I only record a couple things a month on the VCR", they translate that to thinking they'd only record the same amount on a Tivo, then they don't want to spend hundreds for just a couple of recordings a month. Heck there are many VCR owners with the blinking 12:00 who don't record anything unless they are there to start the recording. None of the commercials really adequately explained the concept of recording _everything_ you watch on TV, and watching on your own schedule, which is foreign concept to most viewers since it is impractical on VCRs.


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## gtrogue (Jun 18, 2001)

Atomike said:


> This board is full of people who will not get another Tivo - because they currently have lifetime service and will not buy another Tivo if it is not an option. I will never pay a monthly fee for a DVR. Neither will the majority of "regular" people. There was a Tivo article on Digg today, and there are many many comments by people who are going to MythTV rather than pay monthly fees. Put simply, there is no loyalty to a company that requires monthly fees. Tivo may be nicer & easier to set up than Myth boxes, but not enough to warrant the monthly price.


Like I said, go get somebody else's DVR. I hope you like crappy user interfaces and clunky features.
As for MythTV that's exactly what it is, myth. Very few people in the market for a CE DVR have the know how and time to setup and maintain an HTPC. Despite what you perceive and what techy nerds say on the internet. If you want to go that route, by all means, but the average joe consumer isn't ready for it.

I'm not trying to change your mind but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that more people are willing to pay a monthly fee than pay large upfront fees for hardware and a permanent software license. For Tivo it's always been that way. As I said, I don't have exact numbers but I think you'd probably find that the majority of Tivo subscribers are on monthly plans, even those that got their Tivo while lifetime subs were still available.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

RoyK said:


> It is a clever way that TiVo has found to extort money from you every month AFAIC. You pay or your box is disabled. In spite of its many faults it does have nice features - features that should have been completely paid for as part of the box's purchase price.


LOL!

How well does your cell phone work without a service plan?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> No matter what the users of this forum think basically the vast majority of TV viewers have voted that TiVo isn't worth what it costs.


The vast majority of TV viewers:

a) don't know what Tivo costs
b) don't know what Tivo is or can do
c) even if they know (a) or (b): believe the myth that a cable company DVR is less expensive

Tivo hasn't figured out how to market to the majority of TV viewers. That's their biggest problem.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> LOL!
> 
> How well does your cell phone work without a service plan?


Almost as well as my phones at home.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

> Why does TiVO charge a monthly fee for service?


To make money would be my guess.


> I can understand that they charge a subscription fee for the series2 to pay for the inital cost of the TiVO, but why have a service fee on a series3?


Again, to make money, I'd figure.


> Is TiVO really loosing money on each box sold at $500 wholesale, and $800 retail?


I doubt it, but I have no inside info so that's just a guess.


> Does TiVO make up their guide data by hand?


They don't make it up, they buy the data from Tribune Services then add detail to it and package and deliver it to their customers.


> Isn't the guide data freely availible anyway, free of charge?


The raw data is, but what tivo delivers is much more than raw data. There are many guide services out there that will deliver it to you for a price, or you can go get it off the net or build your own system to get it for you. How much work you want to put into getting it or how much you're willing to pay for it is up to you.

_<i skipped the opinion. not that i want to argue that it's wrong or anything. i think everyone is entitled to their own opinion. i'm just answering the questions.>_


> Is the monthly fee unfair?


To some it seems to be, but not to me. Each to his own, right?


> Is it justified?


To me it is, but not to others it seems. Each to his own, right?


> Am I wrong in thinking that this is just TiVO's excuse to dip into my wallet for the mere privilage of owning a TiVO?


Are you for some reason unable to prevent folks from "dipping" into your wallet for services you don't seem to want? I would think that would be very easy to prevent.

I wish you the best of luck with that one.


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## Qwertinsky (Oct 24, 2006)

MikeMar said:


> what finally got a big OOOHHHHH that's AWESOME out of them....
> 
> multi-room viewing
> 
> ...


Woopty-doo, multiroom viewing does not even excite me.

We only have one TV in the house   

To me Tivo is nothing but a glorified VCR anyway. In all the years we had it I don't think I ever did anything more fancy than record one show while watching another. I could do that with the VCR, but my wife never could figure out how to program the VCR, so we got Tivo.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

gtrogue said:


> Tivo's biggest problem, and it has always been their biggest problem, is that people don't know they need Tivo until they have Tivo.
> I don't know a single person that has ever owned a Tivo that would ever consider not having a DVR again, and if they have a choice they would choose another Tivo over any other type of DVR.
> 
> On the other hand, I know people that use the POS's the cable companies provide, like my sister and BIL, and they are indifferent to DVR's. To them a DVR is just a VCR that doesn't use tape, and if you are using a cable co. DVR that is about what it is. Only the Tivo experience makes people true believers.


I totally agree on your first point. Here are some of my examples:

Friend 1: Thinks TiVo is a ripoff. Mentioned to me some unknown Panasonic DVD recorder and it being "like TiVo", yada yada. I loan her a Series 2 I bought w/lifetime and now she loves it.
Friend 2: Tried to convince him about TiVo and he's not real excited. He's seen DTivo at his sister's place. I loaned him my Series 1 w/lifetime and he became a true believer.
Friend 3: Blah blah, TiVo's not worth it. Man, TiVo must have some crazy mind control on you or something.  Finally, he does buy a Series 2 and he and his wife love it.
My mom: Who would buy and pay all this $ for it? I loan her my Series 1 (partly so I can catch Nightly Business Report when drop by their house). She likes it although she's not very good at operating it and eventually forced my hand to give it to her. 
Former coworker: Blah blah.. TiVo.... oh, I'm not gonna get it, digital cable, blah. He finally got a DirecTivo (years ago) and he and his wife love it.


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

> What does the monthly cost pay for?


Oh, why, everything! Policemen, trees, sunshine! And lets not forget the folks who just don't feel like working, God bless 'em!


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> LOL!
> 
> How well does your cell phone work without a service plan?


It can call 911 - at least it has some basic functionality.

My car doesn't run without gas either. So what? TiVo is a PVR, not a cellphone.

I don't have to pay Whirlpool every month to make my clotheswasher work, my pc runs just fine without a subscription, so does my IPod, etc. And Whirlpool and Apple don't shove untested and defective software to my appliances and degrade their performance.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

RoyK said:


> It can call 911 - at least it has some basic functionality.
> 
> My car doesn't run without gas either. So what? TiVo is a PVR, not a cellphone.
> 
> I don't have to pay Whirlpool every month to make my clotheswasher work, my pc runs just fine without a subscription, so does my IPod, etc. And Whirlpool and Apple don't shove untested and defective software to my appliances and degrade their performance.


Hey, you can pause LiveTV w/o a subscription. That way you don't miss any of your show if you have to call 911 on your unsubed cell phone.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Qwertinsky said:


> Woopty-doo, multiroom viewing does not even excite me.
> 
> We only have one TV in the house
> 
> To me Tivo is nothing but a glorified VCR anyway. In all the years we had it I don't think I ever did anything more fancy than record one show while watching another. I could do that with the VCR, but my wife never could figure out how to program the VCR, so we got Tivo.


Can you say that you have never:



Paused LIVE TV
Start watching a show while it was still recording
Setup a Season Pass

Try any of those with a VCR.

Seeing how this is a Tivo enthusist forum, of course people are going to promote Tivo's function. But, that doesn't mean it is for everyone. If all you do is record an occasional show for future viewing then Tivo is probably not for you. A VCR or Recordable DVD would be better for you.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MikeMar said:


> I think there are TONS of reasons why MRV is awesome
> 
> Don't have to worry about room.
> 
> ...


In our house we have two rooms that are public (ie not bedrooms) with TiVo. Either of these rooms might be recording shows that we want to watch after the kids are in bed. For us it's easier to just send them to bed and then retire ourselves and watch in the bedroom. Rather than have them disturbed by us moving about the house.

There is also the one TV per room situation. Two people want to watch different stuff from the same TiVo. Avoids some fights.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Stephen Tu said:


> Eh?? No VCR lets you record + watch a previously recorded program at the same time like the Tivo has since the beginning. VCRs let you bypass the VCR recording & watch live TV via the TV's tuner, but Tivo has always had the exact same option (with splitter or using standby option) even before the DT units. This has never been a VCR advantage, except for people with misconceptions about how to hookup for watch + record.
> 
> I think the main problem with Tivo not catching on in greater numbers is cost combined with people not understanding the paradigm shift to near video on demand. Average person thinks "I only record a couple things a month on the VCR", they translate that to thinking they'd only record the same amount on a Tivo, then they don't want to spend hundreds for just a couple of recordings a month. Heck there are many VCR owners with the blinking 12:00 who don't record anything unless they are there to start the recording. None of the commercials really adequately explained the concept of recording _everything_ you watch on TV, and watching on your own schedule, which is foreign concept to most viewers since it is impractical on VCRs.


I was talking about perceptions, however the standby mode on a TiVo is buried in a menu and not easily reachable. For the most part the VCR had a one button standby mode. I'M not saying the VCR is better, what I'm saying is that the TiVo lacked some features available on VCRs. An easy standby mode (ie record and watch another station), portability, and unlimited storage capacity via archiving.

All of these things were eventually added into the product but the lack of them has contributed to TiVo's slow adoption. Add to that the feeling that many people don't think paying 12.95/month for a VCR is a bargain, and a nebulous feel for the actual working of the machine and people will stick with what they know and is free after purchase.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> LOL!
> 
> How well does your cell phone work without a service plan?


That is a little different. You actually get content from your cellular service, voice communications. TiVo doesn't provide the content, only the guide data which should be optional.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Hey, you can pause LiveTV w/o a subscription. That way you don't miss any of your show if you have to call 911 on your unsubed cell phone.


Have you ever tried to use an unsubbed S2? Dude it's like the worst with nag screens every time you go to TiVo Central. I wouldn't recommend using one unsubbed to anybody unless TiVo let you turn off the nags.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RBlount said:


> Can you say that you have never:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 and with the dul tuner I record two shows at once while watching something else I recorded a few days ago. Need 3 vcrs for that. 


> Seeing how this is a Tivo enthusist forum, of course people are going to promote Tivo's function. But, that doesn't mean it is for everyone. If all you do is record an occasional show for future viewing then Tivo is probably not for you. A VCR or Recordable DVD would be better for you.


 true enough on we a close to the subject. I made it through before a DVR and it is just TV. IF a show did not fit my schedule then I did not watch it before. The thing that is the paradigm shift in going to a DVR is that it is easy to store up shows you wnat to watch and the whole family can easily use it. Few people would record 6 shows in one night across 3 networks like I do on some nights. I did not have to pick the shows I wnated to watch before the new show aired. I have them all recording and can decide at my liesure what to watch. I have Kidnapped that I have not even started to watch yet. if I had to juggle tapes and VCRs and make sure the kids did not mess with the system I would never have such a now playing list. Worth every penny of my entertainment budget spent on the TiVo DVRs


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and with the dul tuner I record two shows at once while watching something else I recorded a few days ago. Need 3 vcrs for that.
> true enough on we a close to the subject. I made it through before a DVR and it is just TV. IF a show did not fit my schedule then I did not watch it before. The thing that is the paradigm shift in going to a DVR is that it is easy to store up shows you wnat to watch and the whole family can easily use it. Few people would record 6 shows in one night across 3 networks like I do on some nights. I did not have to pick the shows I wnated to watch before the new show aired. I have them all recording and can decide at my liesure what to watch. I have Kidnapped that I have not even started to watch yet. if I had to juggle tapes and VCRs and make sure the kids did not mess with the system I would never have such a now playing list. Worth every penny of my entertainment budget spent on the TiVo DVRs


+1

Our entertain expense has actually gone down since we got TiVo. We used to spend money on DVD rentals and purchases. With TiVo a good movie is always at our fingertips. The last DVD I was given took me four months to watch since there's so much good stuff on TiVo.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> Have you ever tried to use an unsubbed S2? Dude it's like the worst with nag screens every time you go to TiVo Central. I wouldn't recommend using one unsubbed to anybody unless TiVo let you turn off the nags.


Don't go to TiVo Central.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Don't go to TiVo Central.


LOL! If only it were so easy. Also every time the TiVo goes idle it displays the nag. It's a real PITA and I supposed was designed that way, but in a way I'm glad I've experienced it. I just wouldn't recommend the path I took to see it. (Stolen wallet, canceled card and TiVo expired before the new card was issued.)


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## Qwertinsky (Oct 24, 2006)

RBlount said:


> Can you say that you have never:
> 
> Paused LIVE TV


Sure a few times when we first got it. 
But I don't anymore because the picture quality sucks when passing through the Tivo. 
Besides my old series 1 is not HD and I primiarly watch the HD feeds when I do watch live TV.



RBlount said:


> Start watching a show while it was still recording


I really don't think I have ever done that. 



RBlount said:


> Setup a Season Pass


Ok, sure but that one feature does not make it worth the monthly fee.

Thats why I lifetime subscribed it to begin with. 



RBlount said:


> Try any of those with a VCR.
> 
> Seeing how this is a Tivo enthusist forum, of course people are going to promote Tivo's function. But, that doesn't mean it is for everyone. If all you do is record an occasional show for future viewing then Tivo is probably not for you. A VCR or Recordable DVD would be better for you.


As I said before, I was fine with the VCR, it's my wife that could not program it.

In fact I believe the main reason Tivo is so popular is because people who's VCR has been blinking 12:00AM for the past ten years can operate a Tivo.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Qwertinsky said:


> In fact I believe the main reason Tivo is so popular is because people who's VCR has been blinking 12:00AM for the past ten years can operate a Tivo.


BINGO, you just hit the MAIN reason why people get a Tivo other cable co dvr's.

it's EASY TO USE.

Last year when I had roommates, got a 2nd tivo for the living room, took me like 5 min to teach all of them how to use it and to multi-room view down shows from my tivo (that tv didn't get digital channels)


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

gtrogue said:


> I don't know a single person that has ever owned a Tivo that would ever consider not having a DVR again, and if they have a choice they would choose another Tivo over any other type of DVR.


If I really wanted another DVR, I'd most likely choose another TiVo, becasue of its provider portability and initial cost. For my current provider (starchoice), I'd have to go out and buy their DVR, and it ain't cheap.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

RoyK said:


> It can call 911 - at least it has some basic functionality.
> 
> My car doesn't run without gas either. So what? TiVo is a PVR, not a cellphone.


TiVo is a DVR service, key word sevice. The hardware is the means to get that service.


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## jmastrol (Oct 24, 2006)

gtrogue said:


> On the other hand, I know people that use the POS's the cable companies provide, like my sister and BIL, and they are indifferent to DVR's. To them a DVR is just a VCR that doesn't use tape, and if you are using a cable co. DVR that is about what it is. Only the Tivo experience makes people true believers.
> 
> I had a Motorola HD DVR box from Comcast and after about two weeks of using it I decided that Tivo was more important to me than recording HD. The only way I would ever consider using a cable co. DVR again is if it is running Tivo software.
> 
> For all the complainers, cancel your Tivo service and pay the cable co. $10-$14 a month for their box and then decide how much that $12.95/month to Tivo is worth to you.


Agreed .. they are very different than a TiVo, however, they do have some interesting features and cost far less than a TiVo subscription. Take the Echostar (Dish Network) dual tuner DVR. It hooks up to two televisions and has two remotes (one per TV). Either control can set up schedules to record events (including their "Dish Pass" ripoff of TiVo's feature). The DVR can record on either of those tuners and those events can be played on either TV (that whiz-bang "multi-room viewing feature" mentioned elsewhere in this thread). Pretty nifty IMHO. But, it is no TiVo. If you have a monthly TiVo subscription, you pay $12.95 per month. The Echostar DVR is only $5.75 per month in addition to your paid Dish Network television service.

My point? Some people are too cheap to pay for a quality TiVo DVR with all it's great features. For them there is, for now, a few alternatives like the Echostar DVR. But, again, it is not nearly as feature rich as a TiVo.

I have seen both in action and LIKE THE TiVo BETTER.

Just my $0.02 worth .. YMMV.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

jfh3 said:


> How well does your cell phone work without a service plan?


Someone else mentioned 911.

But there are "plans" way way cheaper than what most people pay..
http://www.cellguru.net/prepaid_compare.htm

(I'm currently on Virgin Mobile, but some of the other ones look like I would recoup the difference fairly quickly.. a year or two at most. My phone is an 'emergency' phone, so I spend effectively $5/month and rarely use it.. So it has a ton of accumulated credit that I can use if I suddenly go on a big calling binge.. actually, I wish I could use this phone for my Tivo phone calls, since one thing I *do* pay for that annoys me is a local phone just for my Tivo nowadays.. The charge for getting some HomePlug adapters and series 1 ethernet adapters is enough that I haven't gotten around to doing that yet..)


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## Qwertinsky (Oct 24, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> How well does your cell phone work without a service plan?


Not to well but wouldn't you rather pay say $300 for a lifetime of cell phone service than what ever you are now paying per month?


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Qwertinsky said:


> Not to well but wouldn't you rather pay say $300 for a lifetime of cell phone service than what ever you are now paying per month?


with cell phones?? I'd rather pay per month


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

Concerning the guide data from Tribune, my understanding is that TiVo is buying a premium version of the information, getting more detail than you would get with the free listings. I'm not sure what the added info is in this particular case; it might include things like the unique program identifier tags and such. Stuff that facilitates Wish Lists, Suggestions, Season Passes, and such, beyond the simple "show X is on channel Y at time T, and here is some description text."


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Qwertinsky said:


> Not to well but wouldn't you rather pay say $300 for a lifetime of cell phone service than what ever you are now paying per month?


YAFA (acronym) 1. Yet Another Flawed Analogy.


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## Uncle Briggs (Sep 11, 2004)

I pay $26.85 to TiVo every month for my 3 units. I am very happy with the service I get for that fee. I think it is a fair price for an outstanding product.


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## MatrixOutsider (Mar 7, 2003)

mikesown said:


> Why does TiVO charge a monthly fee for service? I can understand that they charge a subscription fee for the series2 to pay for the inital cost of the TiVO, but why have a service fee on a series3? Is TiVO really loosing money on each box sold at $500 wholesale, and $800 retail? Does TiVO make up their guide data by hand? Isn't the guide data freely availible anyway, free of charge? To me, the monthly fee seems outrageous. Pay $800 for a DVR, then pay $14 a month. TiVO's software is great, no question about that, but after a year, you end up paying over $150 just for the privilage of having the TiVO. It's hard to believe that this cost is going towards guide data that is freely availible, and it's very hard to believe that this is going towards software development, since most things are already implemented in the code that are needed. There's not any heavy software development left for TiVO to do, only minor bugfixes.
> 
> Is the monthly fee unfair? Is it justified? Am I wrong in thinking that this is just TiVO's excuse to dip into my wallet for the mere privilage of owning a TiVO?


Have you taken any accounting and finance courses? If so, you would understand that Tivo carries a lot of manufacturing overhead and administrative costs that we don't see unless we know how to read Tivo's financial statements. Tivo is also carrying a huge debt that needs to be paid off before it sees a profit.


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