# Game of Thrones - S06E09 "The Battle of Bastards" - 06/19/16



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I'm gonna need to come back to this but WHAT IS HAPPINESS WATCHING THIS SHOW? This feels so strange! Bye Ramsay. Sansa watching the dogs tear into him! :up:

The last remaining giant was the only real sad part I wasn't expecting honestly. I knew Rickon wouldn't make it to the finale the moment he was captured. 

I have so much to say but it's all so garbled forgive me!!

Petyr saves the day with the Knights of the Vale. Everyone forgot all about him. All my friends were shocked. Not me. I called it and I'm so happy that it went down as I thought in that instance! I really thought we'd have at least one more casualty on our side though. I really thought Tormund was toast a minute. 

Grey Worm slicing their throats in one swoop was so badass. And was it just me or was Yara totally hitting on Dani? Heeeeee! 

Also Davos is going to have her ass hung. 

More as I think. I'm just too shocked and awed that this was a good episode. That makes me really fear for the finale!!!


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

It wasn't just you  I loved their interaction. 

I was so happy with how Ramsay died!


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I haven't had knots in my stomach watching a battle scene since Saving Private Ryan's opening.

But man was that a satisfying episode! Once Ramsay mentioned that the dogs haven't eaten in seven days, I knew it was gonna bite him in...

The Mereen stuff was great too. Finally Drogon's siblings join the party! Not to mention Yara (who knew she was bootylicious!). Dany definitely was on their side once Theon mentioned it's Yara who wants to rule the Iron Islands. I don't think it would have gone well the other way around.

Davos putting two-and-two together was not a surprise since they showed Shereen in the 'Previously on'. But I think Melisandre is safe. He's going to need her in case something happens to Jon.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

jehma said:


> It wasn't just you I was so happy with how Ramsay died!


Agreed, although in truth any way he could die other than old age or in his sleep would have made me happy.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> I haven't had knots in my stomach watching a battle scene since Saving Private Ryan's opening.


That. You really felt like you were there.

I can't believe next week is the season finale. Noooooooo!


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

He talked up the dogs, then didn't let them go?

Where is Ghost? I was half expecting him to take out Ramsay.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

gossamer88 said:


> I haven't had knots in my stomach watching a battle scene since Saving Private Ryan's opening.


I honestly had my knees hiked up to my chin and kept peeking at the tv from over them just waiting on something bad to happen.

And this I was punching my own hand yelling HIT HIM AGAIN LET SANSA DO IT


Spoiler














I'm way too invested in this show, glad to see you all are too.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

SullyND said:


> He talked up the dogs, then didn't let them go?
> Where is Ghost? I was half expecting him to take out Ramsay.


I think Ramsay meant after they surrendered and were back at Winterfell. 
As for Ghost I am so thankful he wasn't there. I was going to commit harry carry if I had to watch another direwolf die.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I have to admire Ramsay's leadership skills. You would think that after 98% of his men had been killed (many of them at Ramsay's own order), at least some of the remaining 2% might think "Hey, maybe I'm on the wrong side." But no, they all seemed to stick with him until the end!

OK, Sansa has finally redeemed herself.

I knew the episode would be a corker when the battle in Mereen was how they started it! Any other show, that would have been the season climax!


Dawghows said:


> Agreed, although in truth any way he could die other than old age or in his sleep would have made me happy.


A heart attack while making love to a beautiful woman with whom he was deeply in love?


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> A heart attack while making love to a beautiful woman with whom he was deeply in love?


Maybe it's just me, but I can't quite see that as a realistic possibility.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Serpentine!


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I called pretty much everything in this episode:

1. Dragons torching the ships? Check. (They found the missing CGI budget to boot.  )
2. Nights of the Vale riding in Lord of the Rings style to save the day? Check.
3. Rickon dying? Check.

Overall a good episode.



gossamer88 said:


> Finally Drogon's siblings join the party!


And they made their own door!


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

morac said:


> 2. Nights of the Vale riding in Lord of the Rings style to save the day? Check


I kept think Braveheart throughout the battle scenes. Was half expecting Jon to scream Freedom! As he emerged.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Nobody has mentioned yet that the dragons had to break out. Huh. Back in the day, if someone had confirmed "Goth", there would be a lot of strutting around these parts.

Edit! Nope - mentioned just above.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Very satisfying episode overall. There were a lot of predictable pieces, but it was still good. Once again, Tyrion gets some of the best dialog.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> And was it just me or was Yara totally hitting on Dani? Heeeeee!


Line of the season...

D: "And I imagine your offer is free of any marriage demands?"

Y: "I never demand, but I'm up for anything, really."


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Serpentine!


Heh...I thought exactly the same thing.


Dawghows said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I can't quite see that as a realistic possibility.


But you said "any way he could die," not "any way he could die that's a realistic possibility"!


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Serpentine!


LOL. Unfortunately, I don't think Rickon ever saw that movie.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

So I guess Bran is the last legitimate heir of Winterfell...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

The Vale was predictable and we all knew they were coming. Just like Lord of the Rings and every other book/movie... "Couldn't you have arrived a few hours earlier. Sheesh!"


Great episode and glad to see Bolton get his. Also liked the dragons torching the fleet.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Serpentine!


I said exactly that!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rickon was stupid. Don't run in a straight line, dummy!

Ramsay being devoured by starving dogs. Yay!!!!

I'm sad that my man Wun-Wun was killed but he did bleep a lot of bad guys and their horses up before he went out!

Littlefinger's army showing up when things looked bleakest was about as predictable as Jon Snow coming back from the dead.

Two bad guy armies wiped out in one episode! And the dragons kicked ass too!

I'm liking badass Sansa.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Serpentine!


No kidding. When running from alligators or archers or alligator archers you run zig zag. Stupid kid.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> No kidding. When running from alligators or archers or alligator archers you run zig zag. Stupid kid.


Alligator archers use crossbows of course. Short arms and all...


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I was expecting Jon to be a better general. He must have at least been around when Robb was getting his training, right? And Robb was an excellent general.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Serpentine!


So much this


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So I guess Bran is the last legitimate heir of Winterfell...


Sansa is a legitimate heir. Women aren't preferred, but they can inherit if there are no living male heirs -- just as we saw with Lady Mormont at Bear Island.

It does bring up an interesting question: Will Sansa declare herself Queen of the North next week? She can't exactly swear her fealty to King Tommen, who still believes she was involved in Joffrey's death.

With Bran's location unknown and presumed dead, Sansa is the rightful Lady of Winterfell.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I was expecting Jon to be a better general. He must have at least been around when Robb was getting his training, right? And Robb was an excellent general.


After the discussion between Jon and Sansa about how cunning Ramsey is, I was surprised that Jon allowed himself to be so easily manipulated and fell right into Ramsey's trap. But then again, I guess I have to remember that


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

getbak said:


> Sansa is a legitimate heir. Women aren't preferred, but they can inherit if there are no living male heirs -- just as we saw with Lady Mormont at Bear Island.
> 
> It does bring up an interesting question: Will Sansa declare herself Queen of the North next week? She can't exactly swear her fealty to King Tommen, who still believes she was involved in Joffrey's death.
> 
> With Bran's location unknown and presumed dead, Sansa is the rightful Lady of Winterfell.


I was going to add that Benjen is technically a living heir too except I think he renounced all title when he joined the Watch. But then again he was kinda dead so like Jon his watch has ended too?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> The Vale was predictable and we all knew they were coming. Just like Lord of the Rings and every other book/movie... "Couldn't you have arrived a few hours earlier. Sheesh!"
> 
> Great episode and glad to see Bolton get his. Also liked the dragons torching the fleet.


Yeah everything about this episode was predictable yet still very satisfying.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Serpentine!


Lol. The In-laws, right?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I wonder if they setup things multiple episodes ago so you forget about them.

I forgot about the Dothraki army.

I knew somebody was going to come to save Jon, but forgot exactly who it was going to be.

But still, really good episode, less politics, more action 

-smak-


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

danielhart said:


> Lol. The In-laws, right?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yes, but "Generation Kill" ran with it and made it unforgettable.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

getbak said:


> Sansa is a legitimate heir. Women aren't preferred, but they can inherit if there are no living male heirs -- just as we saw with Lady Mormont at Bear Island.
> 
> It does bring up an interesting question: Will Sansa declare herself Queen of the North next week? She can't exactly swear her fealty to King Tommen, who still believes she was involved in Joffrey's death.
> 
> With Bran's location unknown and presumed dead, Sansa is the rightful Lady of Winterfell.


Is she also the heir to whatever the Boltons had?


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Davos putting two-and-two together was not a surprise since they showed Shereen in the 'Previously on'.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Rickon has always been such a minor character, even in the books, that his death doesn't really have any impact. Just another GoT Red Shirt.

Sansa has really come a long way, hasn't she? Passing through the hands of one sadist after another certainly has had an impact.

Oh, and Tyrion confirmed the rumors of vast quantities of wildfire stored beneath the Great Septon.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

smak said:


> I wonder if they setup things multiple episodes ago so you forget about them.
> I forgot about the Dothraki army.
> I knew somebody was going to come to save Jon, but forgot exactly who it was going to be.


Yes I had forgotten the Dothraki as well. I guess I remembered Baelish because I like him and most people don't.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

We've got a queen of the seven kingdoms, Westeros, and a Lady of Winterfell. Women are taking over the world!



Shakhari said:


> Rickon has always been such a minor character, even in the books, that his death doesn't really have any impact. Just another GoT Red Shirt.


Yeah, it wasn't about the impact in us, it was about the impact on Jon. Killing him just before he could rescue him to push all his buttons.

Jon even knew it was going to happen, he just had to try anyway. Playing his part in Ramsay's game.

(No thanks, Swype, I don't need to add "Ramsay's" to the dictionary because DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD.)


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Yes I had forgotten the Dothraki as well. I guess I remembered Baelish because I like him and most people don't.


I'd forgotten the Dothraki too. They weren't in the Previously, were they? Was Littlefinger?

When Sansa was yelling at Jon about going in to battle with too few men why didn't she mention "oh and by the way I've called in the Nights of the Vale so let's sit tight for a couple of days and see if they make it."


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Shakhari said:


> Rickon has always been such a minor character, even in the books, that his death doesn't really have any impact. Just another GoT Red Shirt.
> 
> Sansa has really come a long way, hasn't she? Passing through the hands of one sadist after another certainly has had an impact.
> 
> Oh, and Tyrion confirmed the rumors of vast quantities of wildfire stored beneath the Great Septon.


The red keep.

And that is where Tyrion got his supply from for the battle of the blackwater. Whether or not there is any left we'll see.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Robin said:


> I'd forgotten the Dothraki too. They weren't in the Previously, were they? Was Littlefinger?
> 
> When Sansa was yelling at Jon about going in to battle with too few men why didn't she mention "oh and by the way I've called in the Nights of the Vale so let's sit tight for a couple of days and see if they make it."


A raven may not have found its way to her at her new address, 211 Random Battle Camp Lane, The North, Westoros, and so she knew nothing until Littlefinger came and collected her.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Line of the season...
> D: "And I imagine your offer is free of any marriage demands?"
> Y: "I never demand, but I'm up for anything, really."


Yep! I cracked up at that one, I wasn't sure they'd go there, but it helped me laugh in a very non-laugh worthy episode.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Robin said:


> I'd forgotten the Dothraki too. They weren't in the Previously, were they? Was Littlefinger?


I don't watch the previously on anymore because I don't like to know what to expect. I skip right to the opening sequence. That alone gives you an idea of who is in the episode based on what they show, although they showed Braavos last night and we didn't go there.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

danielhart said:


> Yeah everything about this episode was predictable yet still very satisfying.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Agreed. Very satisfying.

What did we learn at the end? With the new inhabitants of Winterfell?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Are we to assume the Sons of the Harpy are done?

Also, was disappointed in Wun Wun during the battle. Looked to me like he coulda taken out a lot more. Especially with his feet. RiP Wun Wun...


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> The red keep.
> 
> And that is where Tyrion got his supply from for the battle of the blackwater. Whether or not there is any left we'll see.


Tyrion had the pyromancers making wyldfire. They reported to him that they had produced much more than they had expected to be able to.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Serpentine!


Yeah. I can see how nasty the arrows could be with all the archers at once but when Ramsey is shooting in his own, seems pretty easy to avoid. It ain't exactly a speeding bullet.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't watch the previously on anymore because I don't like to know what to expect. I skip right to the opening sequence. That alone gives you an idea of who is in the episode based on what they show, although they showed Braavos last night and we didn't go there.


That is not consistent. Especially when they don't go to a lot of places. They need to fill it up.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Is she also the heir to whatever the Boltons had?


The North is theirs. At this point, they have the authority to distribute the Boltons and the Karstarks's lands to their allies, like the Mormonts. Of course, they have no army to support them anymore. Hopefully, the houses that stayed neutral will now come back to them.



Robin said:


> When Sansa was yelling at Jon about going in to battle with too few men why didn't she mention "oh and by the way I've called in the Nights of the Vale so let's sit tight for a couple of days and see if they make it."


Lots of "stupid" for this show and this one took the cake. But also Jon rushing 5,000 men in anger. Another one is how they storm Winterfell and kill everyone in sight but leave Ramsay alone in the middle of the yard to kill the Giant


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> A raven may not have found its way to her at her new address, 211 Random Battle Camp Lane, The North, Westoros, and so she knew nothing until Littlefinger came and collected her.


Yeah, but she knew they'd been requested. He didn't.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Robin said:


> Yeah, but she knew they'd been requested. He didn't.


She also knew that if she told Know-Nothing about it, all it would accomplish would be another yelling fit.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> Yes, but "Generation Kill" ran with it and made it unforgettable.


Never even heard of this. I absolutely meant The In-Laws.

I think the battle scene was too long. I miss the days of glossing over battles unless they are epic/unusual like Hardhome or (whatever the name of the King's Landing/wildfire battle was). Ramsay pulling the Braveheart trick of killing his own men with the archers could never happen in real life.

In Braveheart, the king was killing the infantry. Bad, but these are the poor who no one cares about. In Ramsay's case, he was killing his cavalry! The real soldiers and his nobility (i.e. the sons and cousins of the Lords that allied with him). No way an order like that wouldn't get him killed instantly.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Anubys said:


> But also Jon rushing 5,000 men in anger.


I don't thin Jon really rushed in anger. He charged originally to save Rickon. He had to run forward after that to avoid the thousands of arrows flying at him.

Though considering he survived about 5 or 6 arrow barrages while everyone around him died, maybe he didn't need to run forward.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I wonder how the Mormont 62 fought in the battle.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

morac said:


> I don't thin Jon really rushed in anger. He charged originally to save Rickon. He had to run forward after that to avoid the thousands of arrows flying at him.
> 
> Though considering he survived about 5 or 6 arrow barrages while everyone around him died, maybe he didn't need to run forward.


He absolutely did. Watch it again. They even showed Turmond saying "don't" (and maybe even Davos). They saw it for what it was: Ramsay tricking Jon into throwing away his battle plan and blindly charging.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> He absolutely did. Watch it again. They even showed Turmond saying "don't" (and maybe even Davos). They saw it for what it was: Ramsay tricking Jon into throwing away his battle plan and blindly charging.


Although to be fair, I don't think Jon was smart enough to realize that everybody would follow him...


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Except they didn't think he was going to rush towards them. If they did they would have sent some arrows there, too.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Serpentine!


I am so happy I wasn't the only one thinking that!


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I wonder what Littlefinger is going to want in return? You know he doesn't do ANYTHING without an ulterior motive (although there IS he relationship with Sansa and his love for her mother that MIGHT make him more charitable but I doubt it LOL)

There was a part of me that thought that Ramsey was going to win, because, this being GoT, the good guys rarely win.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Enjoyable, but -


Wow, is the actor who plays Jon Snow a bad actor
They needed more giants and better armor on the giant they had
Yarra does have a fetching behind
Too bad Sansa couldn't have risen above her tormentor's level and doled out some quick death
But fair enough, and I am so glad he's gone. I was dreading the prospect of Ramsey riding off into hiding somewhere. I definitely wanted him gone
That was a nice move by Grayworm. Definitely cut the eyeshadow guy
Not sure why you'd fight in a heavy golden mask
Tyrion sure got off easy
If what's his name in the Iron Islands can build a 1000 ships lickety split. then why can't Dany? Clearly there are shipwrights
I thought Tyrion let the other dragons go? He just unchained them (quite easily!) and then let them stay in their grotto? Still, fun to see them bust out and all three flying around torching ships
But you'd think a good and brave archer would take Dany out on one of those flybys
All in all quite a kick-ass episode. So Dany is going to be the ruler of the 7 kingdoms, but Jon/Sansa can remain "Wardens of the North"? And why would that be unusual for the Iron Islands, then? I'm assuming that Jon and Dany meet up to take on the undead (who conveniently seem to be taking their time).


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

ct1 said:


>


Oh my God, that's good!


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Robin said:


> I'd forgotten the Dothraki too. They weren't in the Previously, were they? Was Littlefinger?
> 
> When Sansa was yelling at Jon about going in to battle with too few men why didn't she mention "oh and by the way I've called in the Nights of the Vale so let's sit tight for a couple of days and see if they make it."


Because that wouldn't fit the plot, and wouldn't heighten the drama....its' a writing thing, and yes, in any normal battle preparation, that would have been covered...but this is, after all, a drama....

I noticed it too, but it didn't bother me too much...still really enjoyed the episode.


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> Rickon has always been such a minor character, even in the books, that his death doesn't really have any impact. Just another GoT Red Shirt.
> 
> Sansa has really come a long way, hasn't she? Passing through the hands of one sadist after another certainly has had an impact.
> 
> Oh, and Tyrion confirmed the rumors of vast quantities of wildfire stored beneath the Great Septon.


Jamie also told Brianne about this a few seasons ago in their famous "hot tub" scene.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> But you'd think a good and brave archer would take Dany out on one of those flybys


I'd imagine that, never having seen a dragon before, having only heard of them in stories, that most of them were busy trying not to crap their pants.

Even those who were not, that's a really hard shot to make. She's moving, and turning, and mostly protected by the dragons neck. She's a very tiny mobile target. And unlike Rickon, she did not move in a straight line. Dragons understand "Serpentine" in a very innate way.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> But man was that a satisfying episode! Once Ramsay mentioned that the dogs haven't eaten in seven days, I knew it was gonna bite him in...


:up: Loved this! Bon appitite!


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I wonder how the Mormont 62 fought in the battle.


It appears one of them went down inside the castle has Jon used a "Mormont" shield to defect Ramsay's arrows.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I wonder what Littlefinger is going to want in return? You know he doesn't do ANYTHING without an ulterior motive (although there IS he relationship with Sansa and his love for her mother that MIGHT make him more charitable but I doubt it LOL)


To me, that's easy. At this point, he will want to marry Sansa. He finally gets Catlyin-light, only younger. He gets a son out of her and he instantly becomes Warden of the North (ok, regent for the Warden of the North). He will then control the Vale and the entire North. 2 down, 5 to go.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

astrohip said:


> Line of the season...
> 
> D: "And I imagine your offer is free of any marriage demands?"
> 
> Y: "I never demand, but I'm up for anything, really."


And the smiles on their faces as they size up and appreciate one another were fantastic. They are going to be good friends and allies.

Daario might be in for the night of his life at some point  

Add to it Sansa's smile at the end; and the ladies of the Realm had themselves quite an episode.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Yeah. I can see how nasty the arrows could be with all the archers at once but when Ramsey is shooting in his own, seems pretty easy to avoid. It ain't exactly a speeding bullet.


Even running in a perfectly straight line at a set pace, I'm not sure an archer could hit Ricken with a death shot through the heart.

It made for nice TV, but I wonder how possible that is.

Ramsey would not have put that in motion if he thought he'd miss. So not only did he make the shot, he was very confident he'd make the shot.

He should be in the Summer Olympics and bring the gold home to Winterfell.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

If we're lucky, the High Sparrow and the Faith Militant will get real dead next week.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> They needed more giants and better armor on the giant they had


Or even a big shield would have helped a lot. I can see them not having time to fashion a set of giant armor, but how hard could it be to have a Mormont blacksmith fasten together a bunch of shields to make him a giant shield?

Also, they could have made him a giant spear. With all those ridiculously long spears that Bolton had, surely it would not be hard to get one giant spear for Wun Wun. Although a giant mace would probably be better, and not that hard to make.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Even running in a perfectly straight line at a set pace, I'm not sure an archer could hit Ricken with a death shot through the heart.


Might not have been a kill shot. Maybe he was just stunned until those 30 other arrows tagged him.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

gossamer88 said:


> Also, was disappointed in Wun Wun during the battle. Looked to me like he coulda taken out a lot more. Especially with his feet. RiP Wun Wun...


Same! I said this after the episode, he should have just swept their asses with his leg and at least half would go down.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> If we're lucky, the High Sparrow and the Faith Militant will get real dead next week.


I'm not sure I want that. That means Cersie wins. I get how high and mighty the High Sparrow acts, but outside of Tyrion none of the Lannisters get any sympathy from me. Especially since Marjorie is now on the High Sparrow side.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Steveknj said:


> I'm not sure I want that. That means Cersie wins. I get how high and mighty the High Sparrow acts, but outside of Tyrion none of the Lannisters get any sympathy from me. *Especially since Marjorie is now on the High Sparrow side.*


But isn't she just playing him? I'm wondering if there's an outcome that she wins but the High Sparrow and Co go down and Cercei does as well. Jaime is a much better person without her influence.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> But isn't she just playing him? I'm wondering if there's an outcome that she wins but the High Sparrow and Co go down and Cercei does as well. Jaime is a much better person without her influence.


That could very well be, but, I think first the High Sparrow gets rid of the Lannisters, then Marjorie gets rid of the High Sparrow? I'm not a fan of the High Sparrow, but for me, he's a means to an end, and that's get rid of the incest twins once and for all.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I'm betting that's what she is working towards. It remains to be seen if she will succeed.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Lots of "stupid" for this show and this one took the cake. But also Jon rushing 5,000 men in anger.


Especially after Sansa warned him that this is the game Ramsay plays.....don't fall for it.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> But isn't she just playing him?


She is totally playing the high sparrow.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Ramsey would not have put that in motion if he thought he'd miss. So not only did he make the shot, he was very confident he'd make the shot.


And he missed the earlier, easier shots on purpose (one of them, he wasn't even looking!). Now THAT'S confidence!


Steveknj said:


> I'm not sure I want that. That means Cersie wins.


Except Cersei never wins. She may accomplish her goals, but her goals tend to be aimed at short-term satisfaction in exchange for long-term losing.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> The Vale was predictable and we all knew they were coming. Just like Lord of the Rings and every other book/movie... "Couldn't you have arrived a few hours earlier. Sheesh!"


In this case, though, I think they could have. But Jon's army was meant to be as much Sansa's trap for Ramsay's as Rickon was Ramsay's trap for Jon.

Sansa knew that Ramsay was going to use Rickon to play on Jon's love for his brother. And when Jon was dismissive of her warnings, she decided that their best chance of winning would be to let Jon play into Ramsay's hand, causing Ramsay to put his army in a vulnerable position for the Vale to come in and slaughter.

I think Jon realized what Sansa had done, which was why he said, "I'm going to bury my brother in the crypt, next to my father" instead of "I'm going to bury our brother in the crypt, next to our father". He thinks she betrayed their family by allowing Rickon to die in order for things to play out the way they did.

But Sansa was right. Rickon was the biggest threat to Ramsay's hold over the North. Ramsay only kept him alive because it was more beneficial for him to die later rather than sooner. Was there a risk that he might miss killing Rickon, and end up losing him along with his plan to manipulate Jon's army into charging? Yes. But he enjoyed taking those kinds of risks to play his games, and only Sansa truly knew that he was crazy enough to do something like that.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

There is knowing what could happen and then actually seeing it unfold. That battle scene was a joy to watch. So much chaos. People dying all around and it just felt like you were there on the inside of it with them. When Jon got trampled it and almost suffocated it was an amazing scene. The camera work and effects should win some awards for this episode. I put it as one of the best episodes in the history of the show, at least visually speaking.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

nickels said:


> I put it as one of the best episodes in the history of the show, at least visually speaking.


In other words, a typical GoT Episode 9.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Between the three even-numbered season penultimate battle episodes that we've had so far, I'd rate this a very close second to Season 2. While the battle at King's Landing was more epic, I enjoyed the strategy involved in the battles in this episode better. Season 4's battle at the Wall comes in a distant (relatively speaking) third.

We'll see what happens in Season 8. Although I imagine the biggest battle will be in the final episode.



photoshopgrl said:


> I don't watch the previously on anymore because I don't like to know what to expect. I skip right to the opening sequence. That alone gives you an idea of who is in the episode based on what they show, although they showed Braavos last night and we didn't go there.


I think the opening sequence only shows which locations have active storylines, not necessarily which ones will have scenes in a particular episode.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> I think the opening sequence only shows which locations have active storylines, not necessarily which ones will have scenes in a particular episode.


They mostly try to use the places that are in the episode but if they had done that for this one, we would have only had 2 places: Mereen and Winterfell. That's not enough for the opening sequence.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Or even a big shield would have helped a lot. I can see them not having time to fashion a set of giant armor, but how hard could it be to have a Mormont blacksmith fasten together a bunch of shields to make him a giant shield?
> 
> Also, they could have made him a giant spear. With all those ridiculously long spears that Bolton had, surely it would not be hard to get one giant spear for Wun Wun. Although a giant mace would probably be better, and not that hard to make.


Yeah, how about a weapon. I mean sheesh. You could have him rip a tree out of the ground and use it. Instead he's flailing his arms around trying to bat away spears.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> In this case, though, I think they could have. But Jon's army was meant to be as much Sansa's trap for Ramsay's as Rickon was Ramsay's trap for Jon.
> 
> Sansa knew that Ramsay was going to use Rickon to play on Jon's love for his brother. And when Jon was dismissive of her warnings, she decided that their best chance of winning would be to let Jon play into Ramsay's hand, causing Ramsay to put his army in a vulnerable position for the Vale to come in and slaughter.


I like that.

Except...

Sansa admits she knows nothing about battle and how it works. She's no strategist. I don't think she could pull that off. Plus, it would require really tight communication and timing with Littlefinger. Even with 2-way radios I don't think they pull it off as perfectly as they did.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Poor Jaime Lannister.

He was all happy that he had so quickly and easily taken care of Riverrun in order to get back to Cersei, and now he might need to deal with a potential threat to the Freys from the North. I guess he's going to have to stay up there a little longer.

He does have a few options though.

1. Let the Tullys go in exchange for a treaty with the Freys.

2. Pull a Tywin, and have Walder Frey open the doors to the Twins for the Lannister army, who will then proceed to sack the city.

3. Pull a Walder, and invite Walder down to Riverrun, where he then slaughters him and the rest of the Frey army, blaming it on the Tully army escaping from Frey custody.


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## trnsfrguy (Apr 28, 2005)

gossamer88 said:


> Not to mention Yara (who knew she was bootylicious!).


I'm glad I wasn't the only one to notice that.



nickels said:


> There is knowing what could happen and then actually seeing it unfold. That battle scene was a joy to watch. So much chaos. People dying all around and it just felt like you were there on the inside of it with them. When Jon got trampled it and almost suffocated it was an amazing scene. The camera work and effects should win some awards for this episode. I put it as one of the best episodes in the history of the show, at least visually speaking.


I agree.. What I especially liked was the way the horses ran through people and hearing the sound of that collision. I can't recall ever seeing it filmed that way in any other film or tv show.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

That battle was brutally ****ing crazy. For just one second when Jon was being trampled I thought ****, he's going to die, and a lot of people are going to be pissed off. I too think the show should get some awards for this episode.
My sister seems to keep thinking any dead body of the north can be subject to reanimation. I keep having to tell her that as long as the wall is still up I doubt the Night King has any power south of it. She then proceeds to say that she hopes they quickly burn the bodies in case the wall comes down in the next episode....

As for the plot. I wish the good guys would win a battle just once because they did something smart.. Jon lets his emotions take hold of him, and puts his smaller army in a precarious position (maybe he hoped they would stay behind and stick to the plan) and luckily the knights of the Vale showed up and cleaned up.

I still hate Sansa.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Anubys said:


> The North is theirs. At this point, they have the authority to distribute the Boltons and the Karstarks's lands to their allies, like the Mormonts. Of course, they have no army to support them anymore. Hopefully, the houses that stayed neutral will now come back to them. Lots of "stupid" for this show and this one took the cake. But also Jon rushing 5,000 men in anger. Another one is how they storm Winterfell and kill everyone in sight but leave Ramsay alone in the middle of the yard to kill the Giant


The giant was already dying. Bolton didn't kill him as much as hasten the process


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

BitbyBlit said:


> I think Jon realized what Sansa had done, which was why he said, "I'm going to bury my brother in the crypt, next to my father" instead of "I'm going to bury our brother in the crypt, next to our father". He thinks she betrayed their family by allowing Rickon to die in order for things to play out the way they did.


I didn't get this impression at all. Jon would never act this way IMO.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Sansa admits she knows nothing about battle and how it works. She's no strategist. I don't think she could pull that off.


She didn't need to know about battle formations in order to know that Ramsay liked taking big risks in order to get big rewards. I doubt she was giving orders to the Vale army or planning the details of how they would engage the Bolton forces, but I think it was her decision for them to hold back until Jon's army had engaged Ramsay's.

One thing we do know that she decided was not to tell Jon about the Vale. And I think that was for the same reason she had them wait to attack. She didn't want Jon to put them in the same vulnerable position as he was putting his army.



uncdrew said:


> Plus, it would require really tight communication and timing with Littlefinger. Even with 2-way radios I don't think they pull it off as perfectly as they did.


The Vale army could have moved to a nearby position in the night, and then scouts could have watched the battle to determine the best time to strike. The Bolton army had Jon's army surrounded for a good amount of time before the Vale army showed up. As soon as the Bolton army had taken that formation, scouts could have passed the signal back to the Vale army for them to charge.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

While I'm glad he's gone and it's over, the thought that Winterfell's wooden door would make an effective defense against a siege is pretty laughable.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

GoT YouTube page has a great inside look at the battle. Kitt Harrington was really standing there when all the horses were approaching.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> While I'm glad he's gone and it's over, the thought that Winterfell's wooden door would make an effective defense against a siege is pretty laughable.


Were the hinges on the wrong side?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

BitbyBlit said:


> She didn't need to know about battle formations in order to know that Ramsay liked taking big risks in order to get big rewards. I doubt she was giving orders to the Vale army or planning the details of how they would engage the Bolton forces, but I think it was her decision for them to hold back until Jon's army had engaged Ramsay's.
> 
> One thing we do know that she decided is not to tell Jon about the Vale. And *I think that was for the same reason she had them wait to attack. She didn't want Jon to put them in the same vulnerable position as he was putting his army.*
> 
> The Vale army could have moved to a nearby position in the night, and then scouts could have watched the battle to determine the best time to strike. The Bolton army had Jon's army surrounded for a good amount of time before the Vale army showed up. As soon as the Bolton army had taken that formation, scouts could have passed the signal back to the Vale army for them to charge.


If you're suggesting Sansa waited until Jon's army was pretty much being slaughtered when encircled by Ramsay's men because she didn't want the knights of the Vale to be put in harms way, once that info comes to be known it wouldn't surprise me if an arrow suddenly impales her.

I do think Petyr would wait for the best moment to ride in and clean up. Then once he asked things like to marry Sansa it would be hard for her to refuse since all of the Stark forces would see Petyr as the hero of the day. Sansa would have just been browning her pretty armor from the side lines until Petyr and his army rode up.


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## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

This episode was like a sugar high; Great to watch, but as soon as it was over you realized:

1. There is only 1 episode left this season
2. No one you really liked died this episode, so the next one will suck, cause...


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

1.


DevdogAZ said:


> After the discussion between Jon and Sansa about how cunning Ramsey is, I was surprised that Jon allowed himself to be so easily manipulated and fell right into Ramsey's trap. But then again, I guess I have to remember that


2. Did no one in Jon's army have proper armor or a shield? And as others have mentioned, why wasn't the giant armed in some way?

3. I like Sansa much better since she grew a pair.

4. I loved Ramsey being eaten by his own dogs.

5. I'm beginning to wonder if the three for the dragons might not turn out to be Dany, Yara (did I get her name right?), and Sansa. I'd love to see that happen. Let's face it - having men run things hasn't turned out very well.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> She didn't need to know about battle formations in order to know that Ramsay liked taking big risks in order to get big rewards. I doubt she was giving orders to the Vale army or planning the details of how they would engage the Bolton forces, but I think it was her decision for them to hold back until Jon's army had engaged Ramsay's.
> 
> One thing we do know that she decided was not to tell Jon about the Vale. And I think that was for the same reason she had them wait to attack. She didn't want Jon to put them in the same vulnerable position as he was putting his army.
> 
> The Vale army could have moved to a nearby position in the night, and then scouts could have watched the battle to determine the best time to strike. The Bolton army had Jon's army surrounded for a good amount of time before the Vale army showed up. As soon as the Bolton army had taken that formation, scouts could have passed the signal back to the Vale army for them to charge.


Perhaps you're right.

But they certainly made us feel they just magically showed just in the nick of time.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> Perhaps you're right.
> 
> But they certainly made us feel they just magically showed just in the nick of time.


That might have been Littlefinger's doing. Maybe he did have scouts relaying what was going on, and waited on purpose to show up at the last second. Having your army show up at the beginning of a fight creates one level of gratefulness. Having them show up when all seems lost creates quite another. Makes you wonder.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> In this case, though, I think they could have. But Jon's army was meant to be as much Sansa's trap for Ramsay's as Rickon was Ramsay's trap for Jon.
> 
> Sansa knew that Ramsay was going to use Rickon to play on Jon's love for his brother. And when Jon was dismissive of her warnings, she decided that their best chance of winning would be to let Jon play into Ramsay's hand, causing Ramsay to put his army in a vulnerable position for the Vale to come in and slaughter.
> 
> ...


Wow. I don't think there's a single point you make that I agree with. So Sansa sacrificed Rickon (who she thought was never going to survive, granted) AND Jon Snow (because the fact that he survived is practically a miracle); plus her entire army? so now the only power in the area is the one Littlefinger controls? Why? for the satisfaction that she is the one who wins instead of Jon?

I'm not trying to start a name-calling flame war, so please don't take this the wrong way: I think your theory is absurd.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Serpentine!


Me, too. Jon even got close enough to yell "Serpentine" or something before Rickon was hit.



gossamer88 said:


> Also, was disappointed in Wun Wun during the battle. Looked to me like he coulda taken out a lot more. Especially with his feet. RiP Wun Wun...


Right? He could have walked through/over and attacked from the rear. Or led a break-out just by sweeping his feet as he walked. And all the comments about armor and weapons are correct, too.



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Not sure why you'd fight in a heavy golden mask


 Or why a slave wouldn't hit the road with that much gold, maybe after _"Uh, I lost my mask in the last skirmish, can I have another?"_



BitbyBlit said:


> In this case, though, I think they could have. But Jon's army was meant to be as much Sansa's trap for Ramsay's as Rickon was Ramsay's trap for Jon.
> 
> Sansa knew that Ramsay was going to use Rickon to play on Jon's love for his brother. And when Jon was dismissive of her warnings, she decided that their best chance of winning would be to *let Jon play into Ramsay's hand*, causing Ramsay to put his army in a vulnerable position for the Vale to come in and slaughter.


An interesting thought that she did it on purpose! I'd assumed that was just when Littlefinger got there. If true, it cost a lot of lives (mostly Wildlings). But I guess a straight up battle would've cost many, too.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)




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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

So who was carrying around the really long Stark-Winterfell banners they released down the castle walls?

Good thing they still had them.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

nirisahn said:


> That might have been Littlefinger's doing. Maybe he did have scouts relaying what was going on, and waited on purpose to show up at the last second. Having your army show up at the beginning of a fight creates one level of gratefulness. Having them show up when all seems lost creates quite another. Makes you wonder.


An even better reason is so that his army takes as few casualties as possible, while the other armies take the brunt of the casualties, and of course to keep Bolton from winning. The ideal situation would be if both armies completely wiped each other out, then Littlefinger rides in large and in charge. He was not lucky enough to get that perfect outcome, but he did achieve an outcome nearly as good (for him).

As others have said, it makes no sense for Sansa to have planned things to happen as they did. That would have been stupid of Sansa. While she has been stupid in the past, I cannot believe she would be that stupid now. Although it was stupid of her to not tell Jon that she sent the letter. If he knew, he could have tried to delay the battle and/or sent scouts out looking for the incoming army.

I think the best that could be said of the situation is that Sansa sent the letter out, foolishly told no one, and then knew nothing about the incoming army until Littlefinger showed up at wherever Sansa was hiding behind the battle lines. Most likely Littlefinger had sent scouts ahead and did not announce himself to Sansa until he was ready to attack, which as previously mentioned, was at such a time as to sustain the minimum casualties to his army, while still preventing Bolton from winning.

By the way, all these ravens going about carrying messages, are they magical? In the books they were just like pigeons. Homing pigeons are called such because they each have a home -- usually wherever they were raised. You can only send a pigeon message to one place -- the home of the pigeon. So you end up carrying around birds that are homed to different locations, so you can send messages to one of a few predetermined locations.

How did Sansa manage to send a message to Littlefinger? Did he leave a raven with her that was homed to his location? And where was his location? It could not have been all the way in the Vale. Littlefinger had already started the army marching north some time ago. Then he met with Sansa in the North (where was the army? already in the North? or Littlefinger rode ahead?), and she sent him away. Then she somehow sent him a letter and he showed up.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> There was a part of me that thought that Ramsey was going to win, because, this being GoT, the good guys rarely win.


I love that about GoT. There are no guarantees that the good guys like so many shows.



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> [*]If what's his name in the Iron Islands can build a 1000 ships lickety split. then why can't Dany? Clearly there are shipwrights


He WANTS a thousand ships built lickety split. It remains to be seen whether he's going to get what he wants.

Plus building ships is what iron born do you. Danny's crew isn't as skilled at it.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Littlefinger is playing the game. Hold the Vale out of the fray until the Boltons and Starks are weaker. Play the Lannisters and Tyrells and Faith against each other. 

Of course the ramifications of this battle are severe. The Nights Watch and the combined forces of the North don't have the numbers to defend against the Night King.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

trnsfrguy said:


> I'm glad I wasn't the only one to notice that.


Hardly. I'm straight and I sure noticed!



uncdrew said:


> So who was carrying around the really long Stark-Winterfell banners they released down the castle walls?
> 
> Good thing they still had them.


I'm sure when Theon arrived he had them rolled up neatly and stored in the basement.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

What do you think Varys is up to?

What are your predictions for the season finale?
Does the wall come down?
Does Westeros burn?


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Riding the dragons will eventually be Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion. We will surely find out soon that Jon is a Targaryen, Daenerys already rides one, and Tyrion freed two from their chains. I'll put my money on those three. It isn't like we have tons of episodes left. After this one we are down to like 15 hours (still unconfirmed) to finish the story. The overall pace of the final two seasons should be a lot faster.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The pace of the story is already a lot faster than it was when they had books to follow.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

It occurs to me that Jon is basically Ned (does what he considers to be the right thing, no matter how much damage it would cause, and not always too bright about it), only Ned was surrounded by much better people when it counted (Robert Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, etc.) who were able to compensate for his excess of nobility.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

Interesting that so many have said the episode was predictable.
It was just the opposite for me - Pretty much the opposite of everything I thought was going to happen actually happened.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> The Vale army could have moved to a nearby position in the night, and then scouts could have watched the battle to determine the best time to strike. The Bolton army had Jon's army surrounded for a good amount of time before the Vale army showed up. As soon as the Bolton army had taken that formation, scouts could have passed the signal back to the Vale army for them to charge.


I have little doubt that Littlefinger's army was available to attack much earlier than they did, but he held them back until Jon's army was wiped out. Though I don't think that was Sansa's plan, but Littlefinger's. Littlefinger was probably disappointed that Jon wasn't killed.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Because Sansa never told Jon about little fingers army, I have to believe that she played a part in the ruse and that she knew they would swoop in at the end instead of before the fight.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

morac said:


> I have little doubt that Littlefinger's army was available to attack much earlier than they did, but he held them back until Jon's army was wiped out. Though I don't think that was Sansa's plan, but Littlefinger's.


I believe in Westeros they call that a "Frey move".


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I think Littlefinger's army swooping in when things look bleakest was just for dramatic effect. Something like that always happens in fiction. Maybe not always but enough that it's not surprising when it happens. Like when Dany just happened to show up at the pyramid at the end of last episode.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Littlefinger told Cersei his plan for the Vale about a season ago, although he was saying what was going to happen after Stannis fought the Boltons (expecting a closer fight). He said that he would sit back and wait for them to destroy each other in battle, then the Vale army would come in and crush whoever remained. Although it didn't work out with Stannis, it did with Jon Snow.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> I think Littlefinger's army swooping in when things look bleakest was just for dramatic effect. Something like that always happens in fiction. Maybe not always but enough that it's not surprising when it happens. Like when Dany just happened to show up at the pyramid at the end of last episode.


And Tywin showing up at the Battle of Blackwater.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

I saw this today as a mission in the Tiny Tower app. Pretty timely.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I think Littlefinger's army swooping in when things look bleakest was just for dramatic effect. Something like that always happens in fiction. Maybe not always but enough that it's not surprising when it happens. Like when Dany just happened to show up at the pyramid at the end of last episode.


Deus Ex Machina has probably been around as long as fiction has been around.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

kaszeta said:


> I believe in Westeros they call that a "Frey move".


After all, he's known as the "late" Walder Frey for a reason ...


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

tlc said:


> Or why a slave wouldn't hit the road with that much gold, maybe after _"Uh, I lost my mask in the last skirmish, can I have another?"_


Why does it have to be real gold?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Azlen said:


> Deus Ex Machina has probably been around as long as fiction has been around.


Except that wasn't a Deus ex Machina, because they set it up in advance...


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except that wasn't a Deus ex Machina, because they set it up in advance...


Yeah true but I was more referring to cheesesteak's comment that someone or something coming in and saving the day when things look the bleakest is something that frequently happens in fiction.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Azlen said:


> Yeah true but I was more referring to cheesesteak's comment that someone or something coming in and saving the day when things look the bleakest is something that frequently happens in fiction.


I suspect there's a word/phrase for that as well! They seem to have a word/phrase for just about everything...


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

Wow! So much going on. Love it. 

I've always believed the dragons were still down in the catacomb. I figured the show runners would use this moment to show their emergence. Much more dramatic than them having escaped without any mention. The dragons using their fire on the ships in defense of Meereen was quite a sight. What a great sequence.

I think Littlefinger timed his arrival such that most of Jon's army would be dead so that his Knights of the Vale would be the force in power at Winterfell. Every little move has a purpose in his game of thrones. I doubt Sansa had anything to do with specific timing of events. Sansa really didn't want to involve Littlefinger as she is quite aware of his scheming ways but she realized she had no choice.

Sorry to see the giant gone. Was he the last of his kind?

Ramsey get's his due and feeds his dogs one last time. Thank the Seven he's out of the picture.

I have a feeling Cersei is going to ignite all the wildfire beneath King's Landing essentially gutting the city and possibly killing her own son by mistake. I hope that is not what happens.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

goblue97 said:


> And Tywin showing up at the Battle of Blackwater.


And Stannis showing up just in time during the Night's Watch vs the wildlings.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> I like that. Except... Sansa admits she knows nothing about battle and how it works. She's no strategist. I don't think she could pull that off. Plus, it would require really tight communication and timing with Littlefinger. Even with 2-way radios I don't think they pull it off as perfectly as they did.


You did see Sansa riding with littlefinger, right. No need for massive coordination. He was just off over the other hill and they had a lookout.

I agree Sansa (with held from littlefinger) planned it exactly how it happened. It was not deus ex Machina and trite last minute rescue. It was the plan.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

nickels said:


> Riding the dragons will eventually be Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion. We will surely find out soon that Jon is a Targaryen, Daenerys already rides one, and Tyrion freed two from their chains. I'll put my money on those three. It isn't like we have tons of episodes left. After this one we are down to like 15 hours (still unconfirmed) to finish the story. The overall pace of the final two seasons should be a lot faster.


Tywin said that he could not prove Tyrion wasn't his child, so maybe he is not a Lannister?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

anubys said:


> serpentine!


That's what i was yelling at the screen!

And my wife was, like, "Huh?" I doubt she'd ever seen that movie.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

wprager said:


> That's what i was yelling at the screen!
> 
> And my wife was, like, "Huh?" I doubt she'd ever seen that movie.


They also reference it in the movie "Cars".


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

RegBarc said:


> Tywin said that he could not prove Tyrion wasn't his child, so maybe he is not a Lannister?


He said that because he was an egotistical mean SOB and could not believe that it's possible someone as fantastic as him would spawn a dwarf. I took that line as something that tells me exactly who Tywin is as opposed to having any truth or deeper meaning in it.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Rory McCann, the Hound, with and without makeup



Spoiler


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Serpentine!


I was screaming that. Mrs. S. didn't get the reference though.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Have they euthanized those dogs yet?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mr. Soze said:


> I was screaming that. Mrs. S. didn't get the reference though.


The funny thing is, I don't remember seeing that movie. So either I did and the only thing I remember about it is the "Serpentine!" bit, or I didn't and "Serpentine!" is so deeply ingrained in our society that I know it anyway.


----------



## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

How hard would it be to dodge a single arrow when running at that distance? an Arrow travels around 225FPS/150MPH (compound bows do about 200MPH). Homerun baseballs travel at about 90-110 MPH. So, not THAT much faster than a pro baseball.

Or even if Rickon zigged when Ramsay let go, he should have had a few seconds before the arrow reached him.

Well, according to Mythbusers: 


> The average arrow travels at about 250 feet per second. Lets say you respond at the moment you see the shooter releasing the arrow. With a reaction time of 0.20 seconds, you would need to be 50 feet away to react and dodge the arrow.


So, doable.

Or, well, Serpentine!


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Of course you could also zig into it.

As a dopey teenager with a bow and not much sense, I spent some time in my backyard shooting an arrow more or less straight up. After 3 or 4 turns, I got over enthusiastic and shot it too high and out of sight. I freaked out and started to run for the cover of our porch. After a few yards of running, the arrow landed in front of me - one step away from going into my skull.

I sometimes marvel that I survived puberty.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I sometimes marvel that I survived puberty.


But did you?

Maybe that arrow DID go into your skull. And your life was supposed to flash before your eyes, but since you hadn't actually done anything yet, it was your future life that you would have had that flashed before your eyes. And this is it.


----------



## KevinG (Sep 3, 2003)

Re-watched last night. Another example of sloppy writing.

Sansa had already left via horse when Ramsay informs Jon that he hasn't fed his hounds. Yet, later, Sansa says, "You said so yourself." I can't imagine a scenario where anyone would bother to tell Sansa that Ramsay had said that after she left....

Unless, <evil grin> When Sansa asked Jon "Where is he?", Jon explained where he was, and why he was there.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Yeah, I can imagine a few different scenarios, and the one you listed is pretty easy to imagine.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Was one of the dragons notably bigger than the other two?


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Have they euthanized those dogs yet?


That was the part that bothered me. You know they have to put the dogs down.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> Was one of the dragons notably bigger than the other two?


Absolutely.

Drogon is the largest and most independent. Rhaegal and Viserion were the ones that were chained up.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

goblue97 said:


> Was one of the dragons notably bigger than the other two?


Yes, the other two were chained and probably starved. Besides, dragons "don't do well in captivity" or something.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I wonder if Arya will show up at Winterfell in the finale.


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Wow. I don't think there's a single point you make that I agree with. So Sansa sacrificed Rickon (who she thought was never going to survive, granted) AND Jon Snow (because the fact that he survived is practically a miracle); plus her entire army? so now the only power in the area is the one Littlefinger controls? Why? for the satisfaction that she is the one who wins instead of Jon?
> 
> I'm not trying to start a name-calling flame war, so please don't take this the wrong way: I think your theory is absurd.


agreed


----------



## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

This absolutely fits of Littlefinger wanting the other armies weakened so he's the strongest force. Sansa did NOT plan this IMO. The only thing she did (assuming she even knew Littlefinger was coming) was not tell Jon. We never received notification of any kind that she knew they were coming.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

I'm leaning towards Sansa being in on the plan.

She knows Ramsey is clever. She knows they need more men. Jon won't listen to her. She also knows that if the Vale shows up early, Ramsey will just hole up inside Winterfell and not come out.

So she lets the big battle happen, lets Ramsey get out of the castle and show his army, then the Vale swoops in.

It shows that she has learned more from Littlefinger than she'd probably like to admit. Ned or Catelyn or Robb would never have done such a thing. And they are dead.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Someone already mentioned that Winterfell had a wooden gate. One flaming arrow and 10 minutes later there is no gate. 

There is absolutely no way that Sansa was in on the delay -- that was all Littlefinger. That plan had a 99-42/100s % chance of getting Jon killed. Sansa would not want that.


----------



## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I wonder if Arya will show up at Winterfell in the finale.


I wouldn't be surprised if some unknown character starts assassinating people in support of Winterfell and it turns out to be Arya after a face removal reveals her true identify.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

wprager said:


> Someone already mentioned that Winterfell had a wooden gate. One flaming arrow and 10 minutes later there is no gate.


That's a prop/set error. In the books, there is an iron portcullis.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Fahtrim said:


> This absolutely fits of Littlefinger wanting the other armies weakened so he's the strongest force.


I was just thinking this too. It wasn't a matter of the typical movie where the cavalry rides in just in time to save the day. This was Littlefinger deliberately planning on weakening Jon Snow to the greatest extent possible (even better if he had been killed in battle) and then riding in with his army to save the day and be the new protectors of Winterfell.

I wonder if he's going to try to kill Jon Snow now. Can't have two alpha dogs.


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

sbourgeo said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if some unknown character starts assassinating people in support of Winterfell and it turns out to be Arya after a face removal reveals her true identify.


And then Sansa says, "Where was that school, again? Do you happen to have an application I can fill out?"


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

smbaker said:


> I wonder if he's going to try to kill Jon Snow now. Can't have two alpha dogs.


There's no way I believe he'd try to kill Jon Snow. Jon has no rightful claim to anything. He's going to try to wed Sansa. Then he can have his cake (sansa) and eat it too (winterfell). Killing Jon just makes that happening less possible. He's got to be back in good graces with Sansa at this point (at least mostly) so I assume he's going to try to move in now.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I would think that if Littlefinger's army was at the battle in time and could choose its strategy for how to best defeat the Bolton army, that there would be better tactics they could have used, such as coming in from the flank and cutting off the Boltons from Winterfell. Waiting until Jon's entire army was nearly decimated doesn't really make much sense UNLESS it was his plan all along to have no virtually Northerners left on either side once the battle was over.


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## KevinG (Sep 3, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Then he can have his cake (sansa) and eat it too (winterfell).


I'm glad you pointed out which was which.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

KevinG said:


> I'm glad you pointed out which was which.


Trying to keep it PG here folks!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Also am I the only person completely charmed by Petyr and lowkey rooting for him and Sansa? And yes, I do feel rather dirty for even typing that out but... oh well.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

I have to love Carcetti. I mean Littlefinger.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I like Littlefinger (always have) but I'm not rooting for him to get together with Sansa. That just feels creepy. Probably because Aidan Gillen is four years older than me, and Sophie Turner is four years older than my daughter, so it just feels wrong.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also am I the only person completely charmed by Petyr and lowkey rooting for him and Sansa? And yes, I do feel rather dirty for even typing that out but... oh well.


I'm not sure if I would call it charmed but he seems like someone I'd rather have on my team than be my enemy. Still not sure he can be trusted though so he may be better off dead.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also am I the only person completely charmed by Petyr and lowkey rooting for him and Sansa? And yes, I do feel rather dirty for even typing that out but... oh well.


If he weren't dead, how about Tywin Lannister and Sansa?

I don't see much difference between Tywin and Littlefinger, except perhaps that Tywin did not pretend to be a good guy. They are both selfish, conniving, and almost completely without honor.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> If he weren't dead, how about Tywin Lannister and Sansa?
> 
> I don't see much difference between Tywin and Littlefinger, except perhaps that Tywin did not pretend to be a good guy. They are both selfish, conniving, and almost completely without honor.


Do you consider Littlefinger to be a "bad guy?" Tywin was always presented as a bad guy, but I've never felt like Littlefinger was presented that way.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

john4200 said:


> If he weren't dead, how about Tywin Lannister and Sansa?
> 
> I don't see much difference between Tywin and Littlefinger, except perhaps that Tywin did not pretend to be a good guy. They are both selfish, conniving, and almost completely without honor.


Littlefinger seems more "charming" than Tywin. Still totally amoral, but most of the people still living are anyway.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

He was behind the assassination attempt of Bran, betrayed Ned, and threw Lysa through the moon door.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> He was behind the assassination attempt of Bran, betrayed Ned, and threw Lysa through the moon door.


Not to mention that he orchestrated the assassination of Jon Arryn, which started this entire mess in the first place.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'd say Littlefinger was worse than Tywin. Tywin was exactly who he seemed to be. Littlefinger is just as bad, but pretends not to be.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'd say Tywin was worse than Littlefinger. Tywin was exactly who he seemed to be. Littlefinger is just as bad, but pretends not to be.


For me that makes Littlefinger worse.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Littlefinger is an opportunist. Sometimes he aligns with bad guys if that's going to benefit him, sometimes he aligns with good guys if that's going to benefit him. I don't think he's been shown to just be a flat out, repugnant, evil guy like Tywin was shown to be with the way he treated all of his kids.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> He was behind the assassination attempt of Bran, betrayed Ned, and threw Lysa through the moon door.


He was also behind Joffrey's murder and killed the court jester.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Littlefinger is an opportunist. Sometimes he aligns with bad guys if that's going to benefit him, sometimes he aligns with good guys if that's going to benefit him. I don't think he's been shown to just be a flat out, repugnant, evil guy like Tywin was shown to be with the way he treated all of his kids.


I think you are forgetting that Littlefinger would arrange "bribes" for rich or powerful men using his brothels. Littlefinger would supply boys to pedophiles, and he even sold prostitutes to unhappy customers knowing that the customer was likely to kill them (like he did with Ros and Joffrey).

But I think the worst thing he did is how he treated Lysa. He was always aware that she was infatuated with him, so he used her in any way he liked, persuaded her to murder her husband, let her think that he was going to marry her, and then when she got jealous of Sansa and tried to kill her, he murdered Lysa without a second thought. That is stone cold evil, as far as I am concerned.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> But I think the worst thing he did is how he treated Lysa. He was always aware that she was infatuated with him, so he used her in any way he liked, persuaded her to murder her husband, let her think that he was going to marry her, and then when she got jealous of Sansa and tried to kill her, he murdered Lysa without a second thought. That is stone cold evil, as far as I am concerned.


I guess that never bothered me, because Lysa was shown from her first introduction to be a complete lunatic who also murdered people without a second thought. So her meeting her fate through the Moon Door was simply karma as far as I'm concerned, rather than Petyr being stone cold evil.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

john4200 said:


> I think you are forgetting that Littlefinger would arrange "bribes" for rich or powerful men using his brothels. Littlefinger would supply boys to pedophiles, and he even sold prostitutes to unhappy customers knowing that the customer was likely to kill them (like he did with Ros and Joffrey).


 I forgot about the brothel things. Oy.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Littlefinger is wonderfully written and portrayed. He's as evil as they come but charmingly charismatic when he wants to be. Kinda like Boyd Crowder. Or Al Swearengen.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> For me that makes Littlefinger worse.


Oops, that's what I meant to say. Edited.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> I guess that never bothered me, because Lysa was shown from her first introduction to be a complete lunatic who also murdered people without a second thought. So her meeting her fate through the Moon Door was simply karma as far as I'm concerned, rather than Petyr being stone cold evil.


I did not say the murder of Lysa was the worst thing he did. I said it was how he treated Lysa that was the worst. He completely used her and then threw her away. This was a girl that he knew since childhood -- who he grew up with. He felt nothing for her, and he knew that she loved him. So he used that to get her to do whatever he wanted. As for Lysa being crazy, I'd say a large part of that comes from having the love of her life persuade her to murder her husband, and then not follow through with his promise to marry her.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

ClutchBrake said:


> Littlefinger is wonderfully written and portrayed. He's as evil as they come but charmingly charismatic when he wants to be. Kinda like Boyd Crowder. Or Al Swearengen.


ahhhh thank you this makes total sense then because even though Boyd was not a good guy, I always was secretly wanting him to come out on top. So I'm just easily charmed by the bad guys manipulative charisma. Good to know about ones self! 
Also I still have Deadwood sitting here to watch.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JETarpon said:


> He was behind the assassination attempt of Bran, betrayed Ned, and threw Lysa through the moon door.


2 for 3.

Littlefinger was not behind the assassination attempt on Bran. Littlefinger did lie about it though -- he convinced Cat that the assassin's knife belonged to Tyrion, when Littlefinger knew it did not. Littlefinger lied because he wanted to create strife between the Lannisters and the Starks.

It was never explained in the show who was behind the assassination attempt on Bran. It was explained in the books (not likely a spoiler, but on the extremely small chance that the show ever gets around to explaining a now obsolete plot point, I'll spoilerize it) :



Spoiler



Littlefinger lost the dagger in a bet with Robert Baratheon, not with Tyrion. And Robert made some comment -- in Joffrey's hearing -- about killing their horses when they break a leg, but being too weak to do the same to a crippled child. Jaime and Tyrion both deduce that Joffrey took the dagger from Robert's things and gave it to an assassin he found to kill Bran.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> He was behind the assassination attempt of Bran, betrayed Ned, and threw Lysa through the moon door.


To be fair he did warn Ned not to trust him...


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

ct1 said:


> Rory McCann, the Hound, with and without makeup
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler





Spoiler

















photoshopgrl said:


> Also am I the only person completely charmed by Petyr and lowkey rooting for him and Sansa? And yes, I do feel rather dirty for even typing that out but... oh well.


You should.


Also, what happens if Sansa finds out that Baelish betrayed Ned.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Once you've killed one husband the next one's easy.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I did not say the murder of Lysa was the worst thing he did. I said it was how he treated Lysa that was the worst. He completely used her and then threw her away. This was a girl that he knew since childhood -- who he grew up with. He felt nothing for her, and he knew that she loved him. So he used that to get her to do whatever he wanted. *As for Lysa being crazy, I'd say a large part of that comes from having the love of her life persuade her to murder her husband, and then not follow through with his promise to marry her.*


Are you saying that the crazy stuff we saw her doing when she was first introduced (throwing her subjects through the Moon Door, breastfeeding her way-too-old son) were caused by Littlefinger?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

sbourgeo said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if some unknown character starts assassinating people in support of Winterfell and it turns out to be Arya after a face removal reveals her true identify.


That's how I see it.

... and some of those murders will be come with such uncanny timing as to spoil a plot against the Starks or other good guys.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

ClutchBrake said:


> I have to love Carcetti. I mean Littlefinger.


Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyit.

I can't believe it just now hit me that he's Carcetti. Somewhere deep down I was doing the "now what have I seen him in again?" thing.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

john4200 said:


> If he weren't dead, how about Tywin Lannister and Sansa?
> 
> I don't see much difference between Tywin and Littlefinger, except perhaps that Tywin did not pretend to be a good guy. They are both selfish, conniving, and almost completely without honor.


Hmmm...

Which would I rather be around? Tywin
Which would I rather have as the father of my child? Tywin, I guess?
Which would I rather have sex with? Hmm...


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Are you saying that the crazy stuff we saw her doing when she was first introduced (throwing her subjects through the Moon Door, breastfeeding her way-too-old son) were caused by Littlefinger?


I'll repeat for the third time, I am saying that Littlefinger's treatment of Lysa was the worst thing he did (which is saying a lot, since he did many bad things).

Littlefinger knew Lysa since childhood. He should have easily been able to predict that she would be likely to go crazy (crazier?) after he persuaded her to kill her husband and then did not marry her.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

uncdrew said:


> Which would I rather have as the father of my child? Tywin, I guess?


Depends on whether the child is a perfect physical specimen or not.


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

john4200 said:


> I'll repeat for the third time, I am saying that Littlefinger's treatment of Lysa was the worst thing he did (which is saying a lot, since he did many bad things).
> 
> Littlefinger knew Lysa since childhood. He should have easily been able to predict that she would be likely to go crazy (crazier?) after he persuaded her to kill her husband and then did not marry her.


She never killed Jon Arryn. Cersei and Jamie poisoned him when he was Hand of the King to Robert Barratheon.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ClutchBrake said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Drogon is the largest and most independent. Rhaegal and Viserion were the ones that were chained up.


In fairness, Drogon was always the biggest, even before the captivity of the other two.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

su719 said:


> She never killed Jon Arryn. Cersei and Jamie poisoned him when he was Hand of the King to Robert Barratheon.


I'm glad someone else spoke up about that one. I didn't recall her having any involvement in the killing of John Arryn.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'd say Littlefinger was worse than Tywin. Tywin was exactly who he seemed to be. Littlefinger is just as bad, but pretends not to be.


Tywin had money, a huge lordship, and a huge army. He didn't have to pretend to get ahead.



su719 said:


> She never killed Jon Arryn. Cersei and Jamie poisoned him when he was Hand of the King to Robert Barratheon.


Littlefinger had Lysa poison Jon on orders from Cersei and Jaime. Lysa said as much herself.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

goblue97 said:


> I'm glad someone else spoke up about that one. I didn't recall her having any involvement in the killing of John Arryn.


I didn't refresh before I posted...see my post above


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

su719 said:


> She never killed Jon Arryn. Cersei and Jamie poisoned him when he was Hand of the King to Robert Barratheon.





goblue97 said:


> I'm glad someone else spoke up about that one. I didn't recall her having any involvement in the killing of John Arryn.


Lysa was ABSOLUTELY involved in the death of her husband. She poisoned him and blamed it on the Lannisters.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> Littlefinger had Lysa poison Jon on orders from Cersei and Jaime. Lysa said as much herself.


Right. Lysa said it herself in a conversation with Littlefinger in S04E05 "First of His Name".



> When you gave me those drops and told me to pour them into Jon's wine, my husband's wine -- when you told me to write a letter to Cat telling her it was the Lannisters...


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

From the GOT Wiki



> Season 4
> After being reunited with Petyr Baelish, Lysa obsessively declares her love for him and the things she has done to demonstrate it, including *lacing Jon's wine with Tears of Lys* and then sending a letter to Catelyn accusing House Lannister of the assassination.[8]


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyit.


C'mon man, that was Clay Davis.


----------



## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

Robin said:


> Once you've killed one husband the next one's easy.


We're still talking about Game Of Thrones here, right?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

sbourgeo said:


> We're still talking about Game Of Thrones here, right?


Okay I laughed really loud :up:


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Marco said:


> C'mon man, that was Clay Davis.


I know.

Just my initial reaction to putting it together.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

uncdrew said:


> Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyit.
> 
> I can't believe it just now hit me that he's Carcetti. Somewhere deep down I was doing the "now what have I seen him in again?" thing.


I can't believe you didn't recognize him. In season one he was the only guy who looked out of place as being from Westeros to me. No matter what he wore or how he talked, he still looked like Baltimore.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

john4200 said:


> 2 for 3.
> 
> Littlefinger was not behind the assassination attempt on Bran. Littlefinger did lie about it though -- he convinced Cat that the assassin's knife belonged to Tyrion, when Littlefinger knew it did not. Littlefinger lied because he wanted to create strife between the Lannisters and the Starks.
> 
> ...


Are you sure that wasn't explained in the show? This sounds very familiar and I haven't read the book.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Another one is how they storm Winterfell and kill everyone in sight but leave Ramsay alone in the middle of the yard to kill the Giant


 I was pretty sure Ramsay ran away just when Wun Wun came through the door. Then he came back with a bow but apparently no one noticed him until it was too late.



uncdrew said:


> Yeah, how about a weapon. I mean sheesh. You could have him rip a tree out of the ground and use it. Instead he's flailing his arms around trying to bat away spears.


 So much this. From the minute they started the charge I was asking repeatedly "why doesn't he have a tree or something?!?!" Finally my wife told me to cut it out. Or hey, what about a bit more armour? Anything? The guy is by far your most potent offence and you're just leaving him out there to dry, all but useless.

In retrospect I think that giving him a big club would have made him too OP so they just pretended that no one thought of it. Or maybe he left it back by his tent and didn't want to go back for it.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Part of the problem with having Wun Wun be much of an offensive force is that it would then require lots of additional logistics for filming and for visual effects. For example, if he's got a club/tree and he's taking a big swipe at the Bolton forces, presumably then you're going to see several Bolton soldiers go flying through the air. So they've either got to set up some kind of apparatus on set to film actors flying through the air with green screen backdrop, or they've got to add all of that in with VFX in post. Either way, my guess is they simply decided they didn't have the time/budget to make that happen, so they simply didn't show Wun Wun taking those offensive actions.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> There's no way I believe he'd try to kill Jon Snow. Jon has no rightful claim to anything. He's going to try to wed Sansa.


I don't see Jon Show being very agreeable to his sister marrying Littlefinger. Jon will spot him for the creep he is immediately. Jon is going to be in Littlefinger's way. Littlefinger is going to have to hatch some kind of plot to be rid of Jon Snow, be it trying to kill him or finding some other reason why he needs to leave winterfell.

He's the master manipulator who has been behind much of the conflict of the series. It goes all the way back to the death of Jon Arryn. I wouldn't be surprised if Littlefinger had some hand in Rickon ending up in the custody of the Boltons.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

smbaker said:


> I don't see Jon Show being very agreeable to his sister marrying Littlefinger. Jon will spot him for the creep he is immediately. Jon is going to be in Littlefinger's way. Littlefinger is going to have to hatch some kind of plot to be rid of Jon Snow, be it trying to kill him or finding some other reason why he needs to leave winterfell.
> 
> He's the master manipulator who has been behind much of the conflict of the series. It goes all the way back to the death of Jon Arryn. *I wouldn't be surprised if Littlefinger had some hand in Rickon ending up in the custody of the Boltons.*


Oooooh I did not even think of that! I guess Littlefinger can manipulate me BIG time...LOL!


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

ClutchBrake said:


> Lysa was ABSOLUTELY involved in the death of her husband. She poisoned him and blamed it on the Lannisters.


And this is why I'm re-watching the entire series from the beginning. It continues to amaze me how much more I am getting out of it a second time.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> And this is why I'm re-watching the entire series from the beginning. It continues to amaze me how much more I am getting out of it a second time.


The Wire is another show that gets better with repeated viewings. :up:


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> Oooooh I did not even think of that! I guess Littlefinger can manipulate me BIG time...LOL!


As mentioned earlier, we're trying to keep the conversation PG here


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Anubys said:


> As mentioned earlier, we're trying to keep the conversation PG here


:up:


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

brianp6621 said:


> Are you sure that wasn't explained in the show? This sounds very familiar and I haven't read the book.


The show has a straightforward claim with the dagger: It was originally Petyr's, but he lost it directly to Tyrion as a bet. No explanation on how the dagger got from Tyrion's possession to the assassin that I recall.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

ClutchBrake said:


> The Wire is another show that gets better with repeated viewings. :up:


Yes. It must have to do with having so many characters involved and immediately knowing who they are the second time around.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I'd swear that at some point, on the show, Tyrion deduced that Joffrey stole the dagger and was responsible. I'll have to check some recaps.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

cherry ghost said:


> I'd swear that at some point, on the show, Tyrion deduced that Joffrey stole the dagger and was responsible. I'll have to check some recaps.


Nope, never happened on the show.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Nope, never happened on the show.


I recently watched the ep where Tyrion objected dagger accusation. Possession/loss/theft does ring a bell.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

I don't recall exactly which episode it was in but somewhere around the middle of season 2, Theon says something along the lines of appearing like a eunuch in front of his people. Little did he know......


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> The show has a straightforward claim with the dagger: It was originally Petyr's, but he lost it directly to Tyrion as a bet. No explanation on how the dagger got from Tyrion's possession to the assassin that I recall.


But that was only true if Tyrion bet against Jaime, which he would never do.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

cherry ghost said:


> I'd swear that at some point, on the show, Tyrion deduced that Joffrey stole the dagger and was responsible. I'll have to check some recaps.


Regarding that, in the books:



Spoiler



It was said somewhere that Petyr lost the dagger to Robert, not Tyrion, and it is intimated that Joffrey took it.

Tyrion says to Jamie during Tyrion's escape from King's Landing,

"Joffrey would have been a worse king than Aerys ever was. He stole his father's dagger and gave it to a footpad to slit the throat of Brandon Stark, did you know that?

"I ... I thought he might have."


----------



## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

This is definitely a show I will binge rewatch. I have a hard time remember past events and keeping track of all the characters. I'll probably wait until it wraps up in 2018 and then start over.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

VegasVic said:


> This is definitely a show I will binge rewatch. I have a hard time remember past events and keeping track of all the characters. I'll probably wait until it wraps up in 2018 and then start over.


That's what I'll probably do as well. I want to rewatch The West Wing and The Wire now, thanks to this thread.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

I just watched this episode again and found a minor plot problem. Before the battle Sansa gets angry, tells Ramsay that he is going to die in the morning and to get a good night's sleep, then SHE LEAVES. At that point Ramsay goes on and on about starving his dogs for 7 days to Jon and company. Sansa must have great hearing, because she isn't there when he says it. She brings it up at the end like he said it to her, but she was long gone when he said it.


----------



## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

nickels said:


> I just watched this episode again and found a minor plot problem. Before the battle Sansa gets angry, tells Ramsay that he is going to die in the morning and to get a good night's sleep, then SHE LEAVES. At that point Ramsay goes on and on about starving his dogs for 7 days to Jon and company. Sansa must have great hearing, because she isn't there when he says it. She brings it up at the end like he said it to her, but she was long gone when he said it.


I just assumed Jon told her when they met again after the battle and that's why he was put in the kennels.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

nickels said:


> I just watched this episode again and found a minor plot problem. Before the battle Sansa gets angry, tells Ramsay that he is going to die in the morning and to get a good night's sleep, then SHE LEAVES. At that point Ramsay goes on and on about starving his dogs for 7 days to Jon and company. Sansa must have great hearing, because she isn't there when he says it. She brings it up at the end like he said it to her, but she was long gone when he said it.





RegBarc said:


> I just assumed Jon told her when they met again after the battle and that's why he was put in the kennels.


Yep, that's the most likely explanation. There's no indication of how much time has elapsed since Jon's pummeling of Ramsay and the next scene with Ramsay strapped to the chair, but it's safe to say Sansa and Jon had an opportunity to discuss what should be done to him.


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## Squeege96 (May 1, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Do you consider Littlefinger to be a "bad guy?" Tywin was always presented as a bad guy, but I've never felt like Littlefinger was presented that way.


LittleFinger is absolutely the bad guy. He was the one who put all of this into motion by having Jon Arryn poisoned, manipulated Lysa into writing that bogus letter to Caitlyn, then gave Tyrion's dagger to Bran's would-be assassin in Season One. He betrayed Ned Stark, orchestrated the death of Joffrey with the Queen of Thornes, and has slowly been amassing power.

He is one crafty SOB!


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

For my WoW friends (use headphones because there is cursing in the audio):


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> He was behind the assassination attempt of Bran, betrayed Ned, and threw Lysa through the moon door.


And had both Jon Arryn and JOffrey murdered.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Shaunnick said:


> And had both Jon Arryn and JOffrey murdered.


If you are trying to argue that Littlefinger is a bad guy, the fact that he was responsible for finishing Joffrey is not very good supporting evidence.


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## bobino (Jul 24, 2002)

> He was behind the assassination attempt of Bran


Was Petyr Baelish in Winterfell to orchestrate the assassination attempt on Bran Stark?

I believe in both the books and the TV show, he was in King's Landing when the party arrives from Winterfell.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

bobino said:


> Was Petyr Baelish in Winterfell to orchestrate the assassination attempt on Bran Stark?
> 
> I believe in both the books and the TV show, he was in King's Landing when the party arrives from Winterfell.


Yeah.. I think Jeoffrey was alone in planning Brandon's assassination attempt. I think Petyr took advantage of Cat's trust to further steer the Stark's against the Lannister's though. Petyr is the villain, he created all of this chaos.


> Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, are given a chance to climb. They refuse, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Littlefinger ends up being the one on the Iron Throne when this is all over with


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

bobino said:


> Was Petyr Baelish in Winterfell to orchestrate the assassination attempt on Bran Stark?
> 
> I believe in both the books and the TV show, he was in King's Landing when the party arrives from Winterfell.


Evidence points to Joffrey. As conniving as Baelish is, I'd be surprised if he'd murder Cat's child, with how he felt about her.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

You guys keep forgetting about that fool Dontos!


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

hefe said:


> Evidence points to Joffrey. As conniving as Baelish is, I'd be surprised if he'd murder Cat's child, with how he felt about her.


Yet her daughter ended up in the hands of Ramsay Bolton, probably the most sadistic character in the series, a turn of events that was pretty beneficial to Littlefinger.

No sooner did Sansa escape Bolton than Rickon ended up in Bolton's custody.

When this series is all said and done, someone needs to make a cut of all the Littlefinger scenes together. It'll show him as the true bad guy of the series. He seems to get around and have his fingers in everything.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

hefe said:


> Evidence points to Joffrey. As conniving as Baelish is, I'd be surprised if he'd murder Cat's child, with how he felt about her.


But Cat was always his 2nd love....power being his first.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Even so, evidence points to Joffrey.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

bobino said:


> Was Petyr Baelish in Winterfell to orchestrate the assassination attempt on Bran Stark?
> 
> I believe in both the books and the TV show, he was in King's Landing when the party arrives from Winterfell.





goblue97 said:


> But Cat was always his 2nd love....power being his first.


If Baelish had sent the assassin in to kill Bran, he wouldn't have had him carrying a knife traced back to him. Only Joffrey is stupid enough to give him a recognizable knife to do the job.

Baelish is sitting in a good spot right now, but what will he do when the dragons come? And why hasn't he tried to unite with Dany?


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

hefe said:


> Even so, evidence points to Joffrey.


Oh, I agree. I was just pointing out that there is no limit to what he will do to gain more power.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

goblue97 said:


> Oh, I agree. I was just pointing out that there is no limit to what he will do to gain more power.


Sure, in the abstract, anyone might do anything. The writers of the series, or Martin in the books could decide that characters do things that serve plot that wouldn't make a lot of logical sense in a real world. Really, anything is possible. I'm just inferring with the information available what seems most and least likely.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Guys...at the time of the attempt on Bran, Joffrey was a spoiled little brat in the shadows of Robert, Cersei, Jaime, Littlefinger...etc

He wasn't in the power circle at all and could not care less about Bran...

the attempt on Bran was to silence him regarding seeing Jaime and Cersei doing the nasty (and I mean NASTY) in the tower. Joffrey had NOTHING to do with this...


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Guys...at the time of the attempt on Bran, Joffrey was a spoiled little brat in the shadows of Robert, Cersei, Jaime, Littlefinger...etc
> 
> He wasn't in the power circle at all and could not care less about Bran...
> 
> the attempt on Bran was to silence him regarding seeing Jaime and Cersei doing the nasty (and I mean NASTY) in the tower. Joffrey had NOTHING to do with this...


I realize that I'm bringing in some book knowledge to it, but he did. Nothing in the show in this area is different in the book, but there is extra in the book that implicates him that the show didn't include. There's really no reason to believe that this was changed from the book. And in the absence of contradicting evidence in the show, I'm going with that.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Guys...at the time of the attempt on Bran, Joffrey was a spoiled little brat in the shadows of Robert, Cersei, Jaime, Littlefinger...etc
> 
> He wasn't in the power circle at all and could not care less about Bran...
> 
> the attempt on Bran was to silence him regarding seeing Jaime and Cersei doing the nasty (and I mean NASTY) in the tower. Joffrey had NOTHING to do with this...


I agree. This whole conversation I've been wondering if the first person typed "Joffrey" instead of "Jamie" and it stuck.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Robin said:


> I agree. This whole conversation I've been wondering if the first person typed "Joffrey" instead of "Jamie" and it stuck.


I believe I was the first person to mention it, and I definitely did NOT mean Jaime.

There is almost no doubt that Joffrey hired the assassin in the books. In the show, as hefe already explained, there is less evidence for that, but also no contradictory evidence.


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

And I thought the general rule is that book-talk/knowledge is not to used in show threads unless stated in the thread title.

And also, where is it written that because it's in the books, it is implied in the show?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

teknikel said:


> And I thought the general rule is that book-talk/knowledge is not to used in show threads unless stated in the thread title.
> 
> And also, where is it written that because it's in the books, it is implied in the show?


It's not written, but since there's no evidence to the contrary, why make up who did it from thin air?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

hefe said:


> I realize that I'm bringing in some book knowledge to it, but he did. Nothing in the show in this area is different in the book, but there is extra in the book that implicates him that the show didn't include. There's really no reason to believe that this was changed from the book. And in the absence of contradicting evidence in the show, I'm going with that.





john4200 said:


> I believe I was the first person to mention it, and I definitely did NOT mean Jaime.
> 
> There is almost no doubt that Joffrey hired the assassin in the books. In the show, as hefe already explained, there is less evidence for that, but also no contradictory evidence.


It was not implied in the show at all, as far as I can remember. I can state with 99.9% certainty that - as far as the show is concerned - the attempt on Bran's life is a mystery and the only suspects they implied/possibly involved are Cersei, Jaime, Littlefinger, and Tyrion (with Littlefinger acting as the facilitator for Cersei and Jaime; just like he did with Jon Arryn).

As I stated earlier, all we've seen is that Bran had to be killed before he woke up and told everyone what he saw in the tower. Joffrey had nothing whatsoever to do with that.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> As I stated earlier, all we've seen is that Bran had to be killed before he woke up and told everyone what he saw in the tower. Joffrey had nothing whatsoever to do with that.


Based on what evidence? There was nothing on the show to say that Joffrey had nothing to do with the attempted assassination.

Joffrey is actually a plausible candidate. Littlefinger was not there, but he said the knife belonged to Tyrion. Which is likely a lie, since why would Littlefinger tell the truth? Of the people you mentioned, that only leaves Jaime and Cersei. Jaime is too clever to use an identifiable knife. That leaves Cersei, who might be stupid enough to do it.

And also Joffrey, who easily could be stupid enough to do it.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

teknikel said:


> And I thought the general rule is that book-talk/knowledge is not to used in show threads unless stated in the thread title.


You're correct and I've been slightly ticked about those discussing book plot points openly in the thread.
The only good thing is that it's been minimal since the show is now ahead of the books


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

I haven't read the books so I must have been swayed by what I've read either here or on reddit.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

smbaker said:


> I wonder if he's going to try to kill Jon Snow now. Can't have two alpha dogs.





photoshopgrl said:


> There's no way I believe he'd try to kill Jon Snow. Jon has no rightful claim to anything.


But Littlefinger appears to know something about Jon's parentage. (See his scene with Sansa in the crypt.) Killing Jon would make that inside information useless. On the other hand, using that info might make Jon more of a player in The Game. He may want to elevate Jon and ride those coat tails for a bit...


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> Nope, never happened on the show.


I am pretty sure it was Cersei who called out Joffrey for the attempt on Bran's life.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> I am pretty sure it was Cersei who called out Joffrey for the attempt on Bran's life.


Nope, nm, I am mixing scenes from the show with my memory of a conversation from the books.

Oh well, cat's out of the bag for the non book readers. Just another reason to hate Joffrey.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Well, let's be clear about something. While we are mixing knowledge from the books and show (it's hard not to if you've done both) the identity of the assassin is not certain. The show gives some info, the books add some more, but in neither case is it 100% confirmed. All you can say is that a) nobody can say for certain who did it, and b) evidence from the books implicates an additional party and c) there is nothing in the show to contradict the additional information. But really, it's still a mystery in both realms, even if some characters think they know. All I'm saying is that there's no way to rule out any of the culprits definitively.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

hefe said:


> Well, let's be clear about something. While we are mixing knowledge from the books and show (it's hard not to if you've done both) the identity of the assassin is not certain. The show gives some info, the books add some more, but in neither case is it 100% confirmed. All you can say is that a) nobody can say for certain who did it, and b) evidence from the books implicates an additional party and c) there is nothing in the show to contradict the additional information. But really, it's still a mystery in both realms, even if some characters think they know. All I'm saying is that there's no way to rule out any of the culprits definitively.


I think it is 99% certain in the books who did it. In the books, it is a fact that Robert Baratheon won the knife from Littlefinger. Since Tyrion and Jaimie discussed the identity of the assassin, it is very unlikely that either of them hired the assassin (they could have been lying to each other, but that conversation seemed quite sincere). Littlefinger was not there, and it would be difficult for him to get the knife back. So that only leaves Cersei and Joffrey. While it is possible that Cersei got the knife and hired the assassin, it seems unlikely, especially given that Jaimie did not suspect her of it (he knows her pretty well). That leaves Joffrey, who is made all the more likely since he was desperate for Robert's "fatherly" approval, and he heard Robert comment that they would kill a horse who has broken its leg, but they are too weak to kill a crippled boy.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

When do other countries see GoT? Does Great Britain get the episode on HBO simultaneously with the US East Coast (which would be at 2 am Monday morning)? Do they get it earlier in the evening? Do they get it the next night?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> When do other countries see GoT? Does Great Britain get the episode on HBO simultaneously with the US East Coast (which would be at 2 am Monday morning)? Do they get it earlier in the evening? Do they get it the next night?


Didn't they vote to Westerexit?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> When do other countries see GoT? Does Great Britain get the episode on HBO simultaneously with the US East Coast (which would be at 2 am Monday morning)? Do they get it earlier in the evening? Do they get it the next night?


I know they don't get it earlier, because it doesn't show up in Magic Land until after it airs here...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I know they don't get it earlier, because it doesn't show up in Magic Land until after it airs here...


Actually, the reason I started wondering is because a couple weeks ago, a version of that night's episode showed up earlier on Sunday afternoon. But I figured if it aired earlier there, we'd all have heard about it because there would be spoilers all over social media and it would be a huge deal.

Anyway, so if they don't get it early, it means the first time they could get it is 2 am Monday morning. Is that when they get it? Or does the GB feed of HBO show it Monday evening? Later?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

hefe said:


> Didn't they vote to Westerexit?


Wrexit sounds better.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Actually, the reason I started wondering is because a couple weeks ago, a version of that night's episode showed up earlier on Sunday afternoon. But I figured if it aired earlier there, we'd all have heard about it because there would be spoilers all over social media and it would be a huge deal.


That leak was probably from an on-demand streaming service that made the video available too early by mistake.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

teknikel said:


> And I thought the general rule is that book-talk/knowledge is not to used in show threads unless stated in the thread title.


It's really hard for book readers to remember what they read vs what they saw on the show. I was sure that the scene I'm thinking of related to Joffrey's motive was on the show, but I guess I was wrong. Luckily I didn't post it.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

You don't want people using book knowledge to spoil something that hasn't happened yet on the show, but what's wrong with using book knowledge to help figure out something that the show did a poor job of portraying or left out entirely?


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Especially when it's a plot point from 4 or 5 seasons ago.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> Especially when it's a plot point from 4 or 5 seasons ago.


Yep, and also a plot point that will realistically never be further explored in the show.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I use HBO Go and it is available to stream at 9pm on Sunday nights.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Kablemodem said:


> You don't want people using book knowledge to spoil something that hasn't happened yet on the show, but what's wrong with using book knowledge to help figure out something that the show did a poor job of portraying or left out entirely?


This. I doubt they are going to rehash this on the show so I'd say if the book provides more information about it, it's fair game.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Kablemodem said:


> You don't want people using book knowledge to spoil something that hasn't happened yet on the show, but what's wrong with using book knowledge to help figure out something that the show did a poor job of portraying or left out entirely?


This is my take on things. I care about spoilers not book vs show events already happened. :up:


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

At this point, it's the show spoiling the books! C'mon Martin, get it done!


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

hefe said:


> At this point, it's the show spoiling the books! C'mon Martin, get it done!


He's busy writing 20 pages of prose about Ramsay carving that apple before stabbing Osha ("delicately peeling layer upon layer from the tender Arbor apple from Highgarden")


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Based on what evidence? There was nothing on the show to say that Joffrey had nothing to do with the attempted assassination.
> 
> Joffrey is actually a plausible candidate. Littlefinger was not there, but he said the knife belonged to Tyrion. Which is likely a lie, since why would Littlefinger tell the truth? Of the people you mentioned, that only leaves Jaime and Cersei. Jaime is too clever to use an identifiable knife. That leaves Cersei, who might be stupid enough to do it.
> 
> And also Joffrey, who easily could be stupid enough to do it.


I understand that arguing a point with you can be an endless proposition. So I'll say this and get out: your argument that "there was nothing on the show to say that Joffrey had nothing to do with the attempted assassination" has a simple logic flaw: that would apply to anyone. IOW, there's nothing in the show to say that Hodor had nothing to do with it, either.

So the fact that the show didn't try to prove a negative is not proof of anything.



hefe said:


> Well, let's be clear about something. While we are mixing knowledge from the books and show (it's hard not to if you've done both) the identity of the assassin is not certain. The show gives some info, the books add some more, but in neither case is it 100% confirmed. All you can say is that a) nobody can say for certain who did it, and b) evidence from the books implicates an additional party and c) there is nothing in the show to contradict the additional information. But really, it's still a mystery in both realms, even if some characters think they know. All I'm saying is that there's no way to rule out any of the culprits definitively.


And that's been my point. Everyone lied. It's a complete mystery. We don't know and will probably never know. However, the show presented us with plenty of evidence to theorize about the culprit. None of the evidence presented even remotely pointed to Joffery (or Hodor, or Benjen, or the Night King).

So anyone who includes Joffrey on the list of suspects is bringing baggage from the books. If you watched the show only, Joffrey is not a suspect.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

If you watched the show only, everyone is a suspect.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> So the fact that the show didn't try to prove a negative is not proof of anything.


No, I did not say that the show did not prove a negative. I said that your claim that Joffrey had nothing to do with the assassination attempt has no supporting evidence on the show.

You have no basis for eliminating Joffrey from the list of suspects. He was there, we know that he was quite capable of murder from subsequent show events, and he matches the profile of someone who would stupidly use an identifiable knife. He must be considered as a suspect.

Motive, means and opportunity. Joffrey lacks a clear motive in the show (although he has been known to kill for no reason), the means certainly exist within his abilities (stealing the dagger and finding a footpad to do the job), and he was there so he had plenty of opportunity.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)




----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> No, I did not say that the show did not prove a negative. I said that your claim that Joffrey had nothing to do with the assassination attempt has no supporting evidence on the show.
> 
> You have no basis for eliminating Joffrey from the list of suspects. He was there, we know that he was quite capable of murder from subsequent show events, and he matches the profile of someone who would stupidly use an identifiable knife. He must be considered as a suspect.
> 
> Motive, means and opportunity. Joffrey lacks a clear motive in the show (although he has been known to kill for no reason), the means certainly exist within his abilities (stealing the dagger and finding a footpad to do the job), and he was there so he had plenty of opportunity.


I did not claim that Joffrey had nothing to do with it. I did not dispute the means or the opportunity. Everyone except Cat "could" have done it or ordered it done. That includes Ned or any Stark, even.

As you say, ON THE SHOW, Joffrey had no motive. That's is all I've been saying. So we agree.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> I did not claim that Joffrey had nothing to do with it. I did not dispute the means or the opportunity. Everyone except Cat "could" have done it or ordered it done. That includes Ned or any Stark, even.


Actually, you did claim that Joffrey had nothing to do with that:



Anubys said:


> Joffrey had nothing whatsoever to do with that.


Perhaps you added in your head "that we were shown on-screen". But that is not what you wrote. Joffrey could have overheard something, or have another reason entirely. Or no good reason other than delighting in hurting and killing.

As for everyone could have done it, that is absurd. Few people had access to the dagger, few people would have been stupid enough to try killing Bran anyway since they would know or could easily find out that Cat had not left Bran's bedside for a second, and would not be likely to leave him in the event of an alarm. Few people would have been stupid enough to use an identifiable dagger, or have motive to try to frame someone else for the killing. The list of plausible suspects is short, and Joffrey had the means, opportunity, and foolishness to do it. Jaime and Tyrion would not be so foolish. Maybe Cersei or Robert would be, but Robert is not practiced at intrigue (and so would have not managed it, or have been seen or overheard), and Cersei probably would have asked Jaimie about it and he would have pointed out how foolish it would be to try with Cat at Bran's bedside. None of the Starks would have been so foolish, and they all have motive NOT to kill Bran.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

markp99 said:


>


Sproingclaw, the heirloom blade of House Mormont. This is where the rubber really meets the rode.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> When do other countries see GoT? Does Great Britain get the episode on HBO simultaneously with the US East Coast (which would be at 2 am Monday morning)? Do they get it earlier in the evening? Do they get it the next night?


It's broadcast 2am on Mondays here


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

TiVoStephen said:


> Sproingclaw, the heirloom blade of House Mormont. This is where the rubber really meets the rode.


Hi Stephen!


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Did anyone catch Seth Meyer's "Game of Jones" bit on Thursday's Late Night where he watched this episode with Leslie Jones? You should check it out on YouTube; pretty hilarious.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

A Medieval Historian wrote a column for Tor comparing this battle to actual medieval battles. Who knew there was a job doing that? Hey, Rob, you could have a part time backup career!

http://www.tor.com/2016/06/23/getting-medieval-on-game-of-thrones-battle-of-the-bastards/


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> I use HBO Go and it is available to stream at 9pm on Sunday nights.


You mean HBO Now no?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> You mean HBO Now no?


No. HBO Go is where you subscribe to HBO but can watch it streaming. HBO Now is where you don't subscribe to HBO but can stream it.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> No. HBO Go is where you subscribe to HBO but can watch it streaming. HBO Now is where you don't subscribe to HBO but can stream it.


Had no idea you can stream the new episodes at the same time it is airing. I thought one had to wait after it airs on HBO.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> Had no idea you can stream the new episodes at the same time it is airing. I thought one had to wait after it airs on HBO.


Yeah, I was surprised when I first tried it at that time. It shows on the main page of HBO Go as a new episode right at 9pm. It's nice because it automatically shows the After the Show stuff with the producers right after you watch it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> A Medieval Historian wrote a column for Tor comparing this battle to actual medieval battles. Who knew there was a job doing that? Hey, Rob, you could have a part time backup career!
> 
> http://www.tor.com/2016/06/23/getting-medieval-on-game-of-thrones-battle-of-the-bastards/


Don't listen to Ereth. If Rob is ever going to get promoted to head janitor at Burger King, he really needs to concentrate on his full time job.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Don't listen to Ereth. If Rob is ever going to get promoted to head janitor at Burger King, he really needs to concentrate on his full time job.


Dude, I'm not a fast-food janitor. I'm an apartment building manager.

And I assure you, that's a lot more impressive.

No, really! It is!!


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

So Sansa gets all the community property, right?

She now owns the Dreadfort?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JYoung said:


> So Sansa gets all the community property, right?
> 
> She now owns the Dreadfort?


What's Dreadfort? the name is familiar but I'm not sure what it is? is that the name of the castle at Winterfell?

I suspect everyone will turn to Jon. Even as a bastard, he's still the one most of the army listens to.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

The Dreadfort is the stronghold of the Boltons. Or, it was until the Boltons line was wiped from the world. Right now, it has no lord.

We could see Sansa elevate some of the people who were loyal to the Starks to lordships. Lord Davos of the Dreadfort has a nice ring to it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

getbak said:


> The Dreadfort is the stronghold of the Boltons. Or, it was until the Boltons line was wiped from the world. Right now, it has no lord.
> 
> We could see Sansa elevate some of the people who were loyal to the Starks to lordships. Lord Davos of the Dreadfort has a nice ring to it.


Ah, yes. Thanks for the reminder.

I suspect Sansa will go all Rains of Castamere on the entire Bolton family and land. The lord who gave up Rickon will also pay.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I think the Dreadfort is the castle of the Boltons. Are there any Boltons left? Ramsay killed everyone else, and now he's dead. Maybe Sansa will inherit it?????

(couple of minutes late there)


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Baelish is sitting in a good spot right now, but what will he do when the dragons come? And why hasn't he tried to unite with Dany?


Because his opponent is Varys in the "game," and he's representing the Eastern conference.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

getbak said:


> The Dreadfort is the stronghold of the Boltons. Or, it was until the Boltons line was wiped from the world. Right now, it has no lord.
> 
> We could see Sansa elevate some of the people who were loyal to the Starks to lordships. Lord Davos of the Dreadfort has a nice ring to it.


Baelish: "Sansa, why worry your pretty head about the Dreadfort? I'll take care of it."


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