# SWM-8 to SWM-8 to Zinwell WB68 Cascade?



## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

Can you cascade a 2nd SWM-8 downstream from another SWM-8? I know that would be unusual but it's the only idea I can come up with to get my friend's dtivos connected.

It's a SWM/MFH2 system where there is no access/coax lines from the legacy ports available. My friend has a single coax line running to his condo unit connected to an H21 and he wants to add his dtivos which are currently inactive due the connection/legacy issue. The coax line coming into the unit connects upstream to a SWM-E2, which "is a Dual SWM Combiner used to connect two SWM-8 Multiswitches using one power supply in an MFH2 system" - see:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=SWME2

The SWM-E2 was installed by the homeowner's association to eventually serve several units and is in a common wiring closet of the building, however he is currently the only unit in the building connected to the SWM-E2 which connects to a rooftop 5lnb kaku dish. There is only 1 line into his unit from the wiring closet where the SWM-E2 sits and adding 2 lines of coax from the legacy ports running to the unit isn't an option. But if another SWM-8 was cascaded downstream inside his condo unit then he'd have access to the legacy ports of his own SWM-8 in order to drive the dtivos.

If he bought his own swm-8 and connected the 4 inputs with a sws-4 way splitter connected to the line coming into the unit from the SWM-E2 would it work? By the way, the SWM-E2 is powered by its own 24v dc power supply in the wiring closet so it's not a situation where the SWM-8 power inserter inside the condo would be powering the entire system.

Or should I tell him that tivo in his situation is a lost cause and go with the directv dvr which he is very reluctant to do? He actually has 2 dtivos sitting idle that he'd like to connect and doesn't want to give them up. If it matters, he also has a Zinwell WB68 sitting idle as well - he brought it with him from where he used to live where he had the 5 tuners connected (H21 + 2 dtivos) to it. If the 2nd SWM-8 can be cascaded, can the Zinwell 6x8 then be cascaded by connecting the 101 13v & 18v inputs to 2 legacy ports of the SWM-8?

I can't find any posts where someone in a similar situation (SWM/MFH) has figured out how to connect their dtivos when they can't connect to the legacy ports. Any ideas are appreciated.

For example, are there any devices that can sit in the middle between a SWM-8 and a legacy multiswitch downstream to enable driving dtivos? Perhaps something like the old destackers but that convert the SWM signal for use by a legacy tuner?


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

No, you cannot cascade SWMs. You would need to split the four incoming satellite cables to feed both SWM8 modules. 

You could connect a multiswitch to the SWM8's legacy outputs if you only want to deliver the 101&#186; satellite to the "legacy" connected Receivers/DVRs. Then you would need to connect two of the SWM8's legacy outputs to the first two multiswitch SAT Inputs.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

litzdog911 said:


> You would need to split the four incoming satellite cables to feed both SWM8 modules.


Thanks for the feedback, but unfortuntately running parallel SWM's isn't an option. The dish and SWM-E2 don't belong to him since it's an MFH installation so he's not in a position to split the lines between the rooftop dish and the SWM-E2 in the wiring closet since these are shared by all the units in the building. Also, looked into adding an 18" dish on his condo balcony to drive the dtivos with feed from 101 but his line of sight is blocked by an adjacent building. The only source for signal is the shared master rooftop dish.



litzdog911 said:


> You could connect a multiswitch to the SWM8's legacy outputs if you only want to deliver the 101º satellite to the "legacy" connected Receivers/DVRs. Then you would need to connect two of the SWM8's legacy outputs to the first two multiswitch SAT Inputs.


Unfortunately this too is not an option. The constraint is 1 single coax line running from the SWM in the building's wiring closet that runs to each individual unit. Adding additional coax lines running from the legacy ports of the SWM in the wiring closet out to the individual condo unit isn't an option. However, additional coax can be run within the unit, so if there was a way to gain legacy ports in the unit then it would work, but it appears there is not way to "downconvert" swm from a single coax line to a legacy receiver.

If one had a swm integrated lnb is there any way to connect a dtivo to it? That's not the situation here, but It would seem that solution method would work for the scenario I've described. In other words, has anyone figured a way to connect a dtivo to a SL3-SWM or SL5-SWM lnb?

Or is his only solution in this situation to use tivo with directv to use a standalone series 2 controlling a swm receiver (such as a d12)? Will a standalone series 3 control a d12? or only a series 2? Thanks.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Series 3 is out of the picture - it does not support satellite boxes. Series 2 would work, I suppose. See www.patersontech.com for adapters for controlling DirecTV boxes by serial, or use the IR blaster (yuck).


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

stevel said:


> Series 3 is out of the picture - it does not support satellite boxes. Series 2 would work, I suppose. See www.patersontech.com for adapters for controlling DirecTV boxes by serial, or use the IR blaster (yuck).


thanks steve for the usb tv translator idea. didn't know there was a non-ir blaster solution. That makes going that route less unattractive.

So the usb end connects to the d12 and the 9 pin end of the translator then connects to the null modem cable (db-9 to tip) and that tip plugs into the series 2 serial port?

Is there any advantage to using an H20/21 instead of a D12 if you are recording to a series 2? Wouldn't you use s-video input with either one meaning the resolution quality would be the same from either receiver? Or would you want to use an H20/21 tuned to an hd channel and let it be downconverted and sent to the series2 as opposed to using a D12 standard definition?

None of the series 2 have component inputs do they? is s-video as good as it gets on those boxes?

Thanks.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

1. Not much advantage using an HD Receiver with an SD Tivo. You might have slightly better video quality, but Tivo's Guide Data will be confused trying to select HD vs. SD channels on the HD DirecTV Receiver. A D12 is the way to go.

2. Yes, use SVideo. 

3. That might work. But I think the Tivo will not be able to properly distinguish channel selections between HD and SD channels on the HD DirecTV Receiver because they both use the same channel numbers. And I don't think the video quality on an SD Tivo would really be noticable. 

4. No, Series 2 Tivos do not have Component Video inputs. SVideo is your best bet.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

I did some initial experimenting and may have found another solution by diplexing both the SWM output & legacy output of the SWM-8 over a single coax line.

First, I connected the SWM1 output port of the SWM-8 to an Eagle Aspen D-2200 - pictured here: http://www.antennas.tv/product-p/eagle-aspen-diplexer.htm

However, I connected via the TV side of the diplexer (5-860 MHz). I didn't expect it to work since the diplexer is not power passing on that side (TV: 5-860 MHz). At least I don't think it passes power on that side - doesn't show that it does. However the H21 is working fine via diplexer. On the SWM Signal Strength screen of the H21 it shows a reading of 97 for channel 2 and 84 for channel 3. Channels 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, & 9 all read zero.

I'm a little confused as to why this is working without passing power from the receiver through the diplexer out to the SWM-8. Does the Eagle Aspen actually pass power on both sides? Or is it not necessary since the SWM-8 is part of an SWM-E2 which has its own 24v dc power supply. Here is a photo of the SWM-E2 (with power supply):
http://www.weaknees.com/images/swm2-expander-installed-lg.jpg

With SWM, once the receiver locks onto 1 of the 8 swm channels at bootup, can the receiver then receive signal from any transponder without having to send power upstream to the SWM? Does the receiver always stay locked onto that channel while powered up? Does the channel ever change, or only at reset? I don't have a full understanding of the power passing for SWM. Why does an SWS-2 or SWS-4 only pass power on 1 of the ports instead of all 4 (in the case of an SWS-4)? What if the receiver connected to the power passing port of the SWS-4 is unplugged, do the 3 receivers/tuners connected to the other 3 non-power passing ports still work? Or is the power passing port only important for connecting a power inserter downstream? In this case a 24 v dc power supply is connected directly at the SWM-E2 so there isn't a downstream power inserter issue.

I expected to see readings of zero for several of the higher swm channels since those above 860mhz wouldn't be passed through when going through the tv side of the diplexer. However, I expected to see a reading for chanel 1, but it reads 0. The diplexer is rated down to 5mhz so shouldn't channel 1 have a reading similar to channels 2 & 3? Or is something else at play here? Every reset results in zero on channel 1.

Also, since I am only showing signal strength on channels 2 & 3, is there a way to see via the receiver which of those 2 channels has actually been assigned and is being used? In other words, how do I know which of the 8 swm channels I'm operating over, i.e. was assigned at boot up?

I've hit the red front panel reset button several times and I get the same solid results each time. Solid readings on channels 2 & 3 in the SWM signal strength screen, and signal strength of 84+ on all satellites (99/101/103/110/119) and transponders I should be receiving. In other words, the H21 is able to operate the same as if it was connected to the SWM without the diplexer. The only difference is that when connected directly (without the diplexer) I see readings for channels 1-3 & 5-9. For some reason channel 4 seems to keep showing zero. Does that mean channel 4 is assigned and in use by the H21?

I realize that a pitfall of this scenario might be that if other receivers in the building (in another condo unit) booted up and grabbed channels 2 & 3 then those would be unavailable and the H21 wouldn't be able to use the other channels 4-9 since they are above the 860 mhz cutoff. But at this point, no other condo units in the building are connected to the SWM-E2.

In this scenario, by forcing the H21 SWM receiver to use an available swm channel below 860 mhz it seems that frees the other side of the diplexer (SAT port 950-2150 Mhz side) to use for the legacy receiver, in this case a dtivo (in single tuner mode). The legacy port of the SWM-8 connects to the SAT port of the diplexer in the wiring closet. Then it runs over the single coax line out to the condo unit. Then a 2nd matching diplexer connects to the H21 (via tv side <860 mhz) off one side and the dtivo off the other side ( >960 mhz).

It looks like this wiring scheme will work for driving both a legacy receiver and swm receiver off a single coax line source, but I haven't connected the dtivo yet to actually test that side of the equation since I'm not clear on the power passing that is going on and if I should be using a different diplexer. Are there diplexers (such as the NAS) which pass power on both sides? Or is it not relevant in this situation since power is inserted right at the SWM-E2? In other words, power only needs to be passed on the legacy dtivo >960 Mhz side (which the diplexer does pass on that side)? Is there any chance of damaging the dtivo by connecting it in this fashion? Can a legacy receiver be damaged by connecting it to an SWM-E2 with 24v dc power supply if it was getting a feed from the SWM1 port instead of entirely from a legacy port (say by accident; mixing up the coax lines)?

Also, I know there is a 9th channel which operates as a control channel for the other 8. What part of the bandwidth does it reside in? Is it channel 1? Does it change? Am I screwing up that control channel by connecting this way? does it cross over inbetween the 860 to 950 mhz range?

If anyone has solid answers or has experimented with this or can point me to threads where this is discussed it would be appreciated. Thanks -Tivoyahoo


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

tivoyahoo said:


> I realize that a pitfall of this scenario might be that if other receivers in the building (in another condo unit) booted up and grabbed channels 2 & 3 then those would be unavailable and the H21 wouldn't be able to use the other channels 4-9 since they are above the 860 mhz cutoff. But at this point, no other condo units in the building are connected to the SWM-E2.


In thinking about this more, capacity shouldn't be an issue for a while since currently only 1 tuner is using the SWM-E2 which has 16 tuner capacity (2 combined SWM-8's). If additional tuners that are added get connected to the other SWM-8 (let's call it B) then they would not be able to take up channels 2 & 3 from the first SWM-8 (let's call it A) since they are on the separate SWM-8 (B). As I understand it, the SWM-E2 just shares the input feeds from the dish, but the swm channels don't get shared. In other words, there are still 2 separate 8 channel systems (A & B) and a tuner connected to SWM-8 (B) can't grab one of the channels from the other SWM-8 (A) even though both SWM-8's are connected to the same SWM-E2. in other words, as long as additional tuners get connected to the other SWM-8 (B) and no additional tuners connect to SWM-8 (A) then there wouldn't be a conflict. It would only be a potential conflict once other condo units need to utilize more than 8 tuners and (A) needs to be utilized for more than just the one condo unit that is diplexing. Do I have this right?


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

tivoyahoo said:


> I expected to see readings of zero for several of the higher swm channels since those above 860mhz wouldn't be passed through when going through the tv side of the diplexer. However, I expected to see a reading for chanel 1, but it reads 0. The diplexer is rated down to 5mhz so shouldn't channel 1 have a reading similar to channels 2 & 3? Or is something else at play here? Every reset results in zero on channel 1.


I was previously under the mistaken impression that swm used frequency range 5-2150mhz, but have now read that Swm doesn't operate below 974mhz so I now suspect the diplexers are leaking signal above 860mhz on the tv side to which the H21 is connected since it shouldn't work (but it is) given the following:

- swm uses the frequency range 974 mhz to 1790mhz
- 2.3 mhz is used for communications between SWM equipment
- a swm channel frequency is 100mhz wide
- channel 1 is 1076 mhz
- programming guide data uses 974 mhz

I can see it leaking through channels 2 & 3 which go up to 1280 mhz and then cutting off there and blocking off higher frequencies, but I don't know why channel 1 is showing 0. Isn' that frequency @ 974 mhz? Why would the diplexer block 974 but pass the higher frequencies up to 1280 mhz?

Is the Eagle Aspen just not reliable? I think I have some holland diplexers which I may try to see if I get the same results. Will test further but not optimistic this is viable.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

Can someone tell me if this is true:
The 101 satellite feed from a legacy port operates entirely within frequency range 950-1450 MHz for both even and odd transponders (13v & 18v).

If so, could you stack/combine the upper swm channels above 1450 mhz with the legacy below 1450 onto a single coax? The upper swm channels being Channel 6 @1586mhz, Channel 7 @1688mhz, Channel 8 @ 1790mhz?

Once the ird establishes its swm channel at power on/reset, does the guide data flow down that channel at that assigned frequency range? Or does it flow through a different channel (at 974mhz?)? In other words, does guide data alway flow at a fixed swm frequency or does it change?

In this scenario, all 8 channels of the swm are not neeeded. Only trying to drive 1 swm tuner at this point. If an upper swm channel is used, couldn't the dtivo operate from the 950-1450 mhz range? Is there a splitter/diplexer that splits at the 1450mhz range?

Or is there a way to stack the swm signal to below 950mhz, feed it down a single coax with the legacy frequency, then destack the swm signal back to its original state (above 950mhz) at the swm ird?


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

tivoyahoo said:


> Is the Eagle Aspen just not reliable? I think I have some holland diplexers which I may try to see if I get the same results. Will test further but not optimistic this is viable.


I tested several different diplexers and found that some would leak frequencies above 860 mhz when the swm feed was connected to the TV side (<860mhz). Other diplexers (such as the holland) blocked the frequencies above 860 mhz and none of the swm frequncies passed through. However with the "leaky" diplexers (like the eagle aspen) the ird was able to acquire a channel in the lower frequency range (near 1mhz) and work. However, once a legacy receiver was powered on over the other leg (>950mhz) it would interfere with the swm channel and only the legacy receiver would work properly effectively commandeernig the 950-1450 mhz frequency and kicking the swm ird offline.

So I am wondering if there is a way to separate out just the swm channels above 1450 mhz? Perhaps with some type of frequency or band separator?

Or alternatively is there a way to use a stacker/destacker and polarity locker to force the swm frequency use to above 1450mhz allowing it to be stacked on top of regular legacy 950-1450 mhz to allow it to coexist over the same coax line? In other words, between the swm1 output port and the swm ird would sit the stacker/dstacker/polarity locker.

Thanks.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

Or perhaps part of the problem with it "semi-working" is my choice of diplexer and issues with the 2.3mhz control signal??

this thread shows problems with the d2200 eagle aspen I first tried:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133521

Perhaps if I had the NAS diplexer which handles the 2.3 mhz control signal properly that would change my results?? Anyone with any ideas? Hoping to get at least one dtivo tuner working and to coexist with swm irds.


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## rbtravis (Aug 9, 2005)

tivoyahoo said:


> Or perhaps part of the problem with it "semi-working" is my choice of diplexer and issues with the 2.3mhz control signal??
> 
> this thread shows problems with the d2200 eagle aspen I first tried:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133521
> ...


Consider buying a bigger multi-switch - I purchased a 16x4 Spaun multi-switch for under $15.00 on ebay


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