# what happens to my lifetime subscription if Tivo goes bankrupt?



## johnny99 (Nov 10, 2008)

Tivo reported their quarterly earnings today and they are having trouble controlling costs while customer cancellations are increasing and new subscriptions are decreasing. Meanwhile, there are reports today that Google is developing some kind of set-top cable box that provides TV search and schedule information for free (ad-supported).

If Tivo declares bankruptcy, what happens to existing "lifetime" subscriptions?


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

What do you think would happen to it? 

Just as with any company offering a lifetime warranty and the company goes under......no company means no lifetime warranty. So if Tivo went under than your lifetime subscription would be lost. You really couldn't figure this out on your own?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

johnny99 said:


> Tivo reported their quarterly earnings today and they are having trouble controlling costs while customer cancellations are increasing and new subscriptions are decreasing. Meanwhile, there are reports today that Google is developing some kind of set-top cable box that provides TV search and schedule information for free (ad-supported).
> 
> If Tivo declares bankruptcy, what happens to existing "lifetime" subscriptions?


did you hear the parts of the conference call where they said they have tons of cash in the bank? and that how they had their second annual profit before ebitda?

they aren't going bankrupt anytime soon.

that said if they go bankrupt and no one buys them up than your box is potentially a door stop.

likely someone will buy them up though if for nothing else but to get their interlectual property. And not sure anyone buying them would want their name associated with pissing off a million or two 'former tivo' customers by shutting everything down.

But I'll really let the people who know finance pipe in on the liklihood of bankruptcy.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Tivo is unlikely to go broke anytime soon. They have cash coming in from the Dish lawsuit and that victory will only lead to cash coming from other providers. As for what would happen, I am sure some company would buy the remains from Tivo. It would be up to them what they decide to do, as they would not be required to honor your current lifetime. I'm sure they would probably give some kind of deal, but there is no requirement.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

They would just get bought out and continue on from there

don't worry about it


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Where did you find this? I just did a Google search and there were no hits.



> Meanwhile, there are reports today that Google is developing some kind of set-top cable box that provides TV search and schedule information for free (ad-supported).


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Somebody would undoubtedly take over the subs, as they did when Replay went bankrupt. Servicing the accounts is highly profitable (because of the monthly subs).

Bankruptcy is not a danger at all for TiVo for many years, though. They have hundreds of millions of dollars in cash, no debt, and hundreds of millions of dollars due them from the echostar lawsuit. They are losing money now only because they have massively increased research and development because of all the new models (as many as 5 are expected in the next year or so, mostly specialized like the DirecTiVo) and overseas expansion.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

you can listen to the call here:

http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?p=irol-eventDetails&c=106292&eventID=2739755

press release is here:

http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1400157&highlight=

one interesting postive the analysts asked about was the ARPU apparently made a significant uptick. Tivo wouldn't explain why (seemed afriad to discuss any contract details and then said "we dont want to give details of what our partners are doing")- but when pressed if it was a blip or a new trend they said it should be a new trend.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

magnus said:


> Where did you find this? I just did a Google search and there were no hits.


Maybe this?
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/08/google-and-dish-network-testing-tv-search-on-android-based-set-t/


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Resist said:


> What do you think would happen to it?
> 
> Just as with any company offering a lifetime warranty and the company goes under......no company means no lifetime warranty. So if Tivo went under than your lifetime subscription would be lost. You really couldn't figure this out on your own?


he asked about the subscription, not the warranty - could you not figure that out.

as others have pointed out -, even replay boxes still have service after all this time. No need to worry about service on the TiVo.
Then the fact TiVo is sitting on a pile of cash and has little debt will let them weather these lean times easily.


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## t1voproof (Feb 6, 2010)

I don't think Google is getting into the STB market anytime soon, but who knows?


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> he asked about the subscription, not the warranty - could you not figure that out.


Yes I knew what he was talking about. Try reading what I wrote again, before throwing the hammer at me.

But I was making a point about any company that goes out of business and sold anything claiming to be "lifetime". So obviously "lifetime", whether it be a subscription or warranty, is only in place if the company is still in business.....or if someone else takes over their assests.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Resist said:


> Yes I knew what he was talking about. Try reading what I wrote again, before throwing the hammer at me.


Oh Ok you just wanted deliberately to talk about something different and be so literal as to give the OP an answer that in reality would not happen. Ok then, have fun with that.


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## c.hack (Sep 8, 2004)

Remember ReplayTV? I got a lifetime subscription about 10 years ago. The company has been turned over so many times it is virtually gone. BUT, I'm still getting my ReplayTV guide just like 10 years ago.


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## whynot83706 (Jul 27, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> did you hear the parts of the conference call where they said they have tons of cash in the bank? and that how they had their second annual profit before ebitda?
> 
> they aren't going bankrupt anytime soon.
> 
> ...


Tivo brand is recognizable, they just need some fresh ideas to move forward so buyout would probably best thing that could happen to Tivo.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

IIRC Tivo promised when they first started selling boxes that if they ever went under they would put the necessary codes in the public domain so any interested parties could provide an alternative source of guide data. 

Also before Tivo was officially available in various foreign countries hobyists found a way to provide local guide data.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

petew said:


> IIRC Tivo promised when they first started selling boxes that if they ever went under they would put the necessary codes in the public domain so any interested parties could provide an alternative source of guide data.


It was not an official promise, just an employee (I believe Richard "Bullwinkle"?) stating that they would try and make sure customers were covered in case of bankruptcy, including going to public domain. It won't arise - now the current customers and contracts are a valuable asset that companies would jump to service (that wasn't necessarily true in the very beginning.)


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

If the lifetime subscription is in jeopardy, then your Tivo box isn't likely to work so well anyway (no software, no programming guide, etc.). It's the end of the world as we know it--I'm not worrying just about the lifetime I paid for but the Tivo boxes I love.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> They would just get bought out and continue on from there
> 
> don't worry about it


Precisely.

Moxi is now owned by Arris, and SA is now owned by Cisco. DVR companies are apparently worth buying to somebody.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

johnny99 said:


> Tivo reported their quarterly earnings today and they are having trouble controlling costs while customer cancellations are increasing and new subscriptions are decreasing. Meanwhile, there are reports today that Google is developing some kind of set-top cable box that provides TV search and schedule information for free (ad-supported).
> 
> If Tivo declares bankruptcy, what happens to existing "lifetime" subscriptions?


Anyone have a record of how many times a year this question is asked and answered?

As for Tivo going bankrupt - anything is possible, but they have $254 Million in the bank, no dept and Echostar owes them another $300 million plus additional damages from June 2009 forward.

As for Google getting into the set top business, they'll have similar problems to what Tivo has (primarily CableCARD and getting people to think beyond whatever the cable company gives them) UNLESS they really make it worthwhile for the MSOs to use a potential Google box. Most people these days aren't going to buy a cablebox that isn't also a DVR and Tivo has quite a few DVR-related patents, not just the Time Warp patent that's at the heard of the Echostar case, including one just issued related to the concept of season passes.

The other thing that was lost on the OP is that the rate of losses, especially in the MSO (now primarily DirecTV) is reversing and average revenue per MSO customer is increasing (about 15-20%) and the CEO said "this is not related to a one time event.

No offense to the OP, but this is just another "Tivo deathwatch" post that we've have pretty constantly for the last 10-12 years. IMO, the possibility that Tivo will go bankrupt is the lowest it's been in years.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Oh Ok you just wanted deliberately to talk about something different and be so literal as to give the OP an answer that in reality would not happen. Ok then, have fun with that.


What is your issue with me? I was making a point that "lifetime" doesn't mean lifetime, if the company goes out of business, that's all!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Resist said:


> What is your issue with me? I was making a point that "lifetime" doesn't mean lifetime, if the company goes out of business, that's all!


and that was incorrect. The rest was just me replying in kind to your sarcasm you showed the poster. It seems you can be sarcastic but others should treat you with utmost respect. Ok.


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## OLdDog (Dec 15, 2001)

This was asked back in the day and a TiVo employee (Richard B I think) {His last name is like the moose on Rocky the flying Squirrel but I cannot spell it right now} said that, "were TiVo to go out of business an unlock code would be released that would, at least. allow TiVos to do manual recordings.

Of course TiVos back then were much simpler and things like cable cards, MRV, and other advanced things did not exist, but I would hope that all TiVos would be able to perform at some level should the worst happen. 

But, as others have said, TiVo is not in current real danger of going out of business rather the only real danger is some sort of buyout which should not effect subscription models in any way but pricing and existing contracts should continue unchanged.


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## bkc56 (Apr 29, 2001)

funguy123us said:


> Goggle will take over the world one day. Anything they do, they win.


<off-topic>
That doesn't seem to be the case for Wave or Buzz (from what I've been seeing)
</off-topic>


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

jfh3 said:


> but they have $254 Million in the bank
> .


hmmm, me too... small world


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## ComputerLover (Apr 5, 2012)

johnny99 said:


> Tivo reported their quarterly earnings today and they are having trouble controlling costs while customer cancellations are increasing and new subscriptions are decreasing. Meanwhile, there are reports today that Google is developing some kind of set-top cable box that provides TV search and schedule information for free (ad-supported).
> 
> If Tivo declares bankruptcy, what happens to existing "lifetime" subscriptions?


GOOD QUESTION..LIKE I GOT MY MONEY REFUND $149.00 PLUS ANY MOVIES FREE NO CHARGE SEPT TO NOV 30, 2011 FROM SEZMI INC. SHUT DOWN ON SEPT 24TH,..THEY SEND MONEY REFUND TO SUBCRIBERS CUSTOMER'S SEZMI DVR 1TB DEVICE ONLY AND ANY MOVIES FREE UNTIL NOV 30 EXPIRED... NOT NEW CUSTOMER JOIN...ON SEPT 24,2011 AFTER..


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## vectorcatch (Nov 21, 2008)

Thank you for the seizure.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

t1voproof said:


> I don't think Google is getting into the STB market anytime soon, but who knows?


Google in taks with an investment firm on finding someone who take Moto STB division. Cissco is also trying to unload the SA STB division.

Tivo has stated that in the event that would cause them to go under an update would be sent that would open the boxes. Hacker would end proving support if no one took Tivo over. But, this all un-likely to happen with VM in the UK and RCN, and other cable provider using TiVo. Comcast may come around and offer TiVo if the VOD deal sell more Tivos.


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## marqattacks (Jan 10, 2012)

Before a company goes under, it is sold to someone else. When AT&T offered to buy T-Mobile, a lof customers claimed foul. They didn't want to lose the plans they paid for (or plans they were grandfathered into) by joining AT&T. AT&T assured the customers that they would continue having the plans they currently were subscribed to. 

I imagine that if TiVo ever "goes under" and is sold to the highest bidder, customers will retain the services they had.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Johncv said:


> ...
> Tivo has stated that in the event that would cause them to go under an update would be sent that would open the boxes. ....


i doubt there's anyway that tivo stops operating anytime in the next several years. Just not going to happen.

that said- is the above accurate? I dont know that TiVo, the company, ever said that.

Several years ago employees of TiVo did indirectly let it be known they would unleash a back door.

But that was a a few platforms ago- who knows if such an easy backdoor exists or not anymore.

More importantly- I'm not even sure at this point that anyone could unlock anything without fear of getting sued or prosecuted. Tivo would have to completely go out of business with zero hope of providing guide data before anyone could unlock anything- but at that point I'm not sure there would be anyone left with the keys. If there's any hope of a buyer coming along then anyone unlocking anything would potentially scutttle a deal since all the subs wouldn't have to spend anything for guide data anymore and could just get it for free someplace. Some cheese head lawyer would probably through around the DMCA too in a suit.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

c.hack said:


> Remember ReplayTV? I got a lifetime subscription about 10 years ago. The company has been turned over so many times it is virtually gone. BUT, I'm still getting my ReplayTV guide just like 10 years ago.


Hows that lifetime subscription working for you now?


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

scandia101 said:


> Hows that lifetime subscription working for you now?


From Replay TV's website on 1/2/2012: _After the announced shutdown of the ReplayTV programming guide service, we have had many positive, enthusiastic comments about the ReplayTV DVR products and services. In light of this response, ReplayTV and its parent company Digital Networks North America, Inc. have decided to continue the electronic programming guide service pursuant to the terms of your service activation agreement. We thank you very much for all of your support and enthusiasm over the many years these products have been sold.

As we have said previously, the analog programming that the ReplayTV units are capable of recording is in fact likely to be converted to digital signals in the very near future at which point the ReplayTV units will no longer be able to record such programming. We encourage our users to consider digital video recorders that have this digital recording capability as well as additional technological advances which are not a part of the ReplayTV units (all of which were end of lifed by 2006). For monthly subscribers of the ReplayTV service, we are exploring options by which you may continue paying for and receiving such service going forward. We apologize in advance should there be any minor disruptions in the ReplayTV service while we implement the continuation of the programming guide. Thank you. ReplayTV_

So basically, for a company that went out of business years ago and who's last product was EOL-ed in 2006, they're STILL trying to find a way to support their clients...even when their devices no longer will actually work with most cable systems or TV feeds any longer.

I've never owned one, but I think that's pretty darned good service, all things considered.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Interesting. A year ago I read that they were pulling the plug on the program guide service.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Don't ReplayTVs have an IR blaster to control cable boxes just like Tivos?? If so, then the mention of analog seems SLIGHTLY tangential.. (Though I guess there could be problems if it can only do 3 digit channels for some areas..)

BTW, I never used a Tivo with an IR blaster, since I think it's hokey.. Plus, I still record analog (mostly as 'backup' or conflict recordings.. sometimes I get the overlap part in analog if I think I'm going to miss the end of a show with overlapping recordings)


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## minimeh (Jun 20, 2011)

mattack said:


> Don't ReplayTVs have an IR blaster to control cable boxes just like Tivos?? If so, then the mention of analog seems SLIGHTLY tangential.. (Though I guess there could be problems if it can only do 3 digit channels for some areas..)
> 
> BTW, I never used a Tivo with an IR blaster, since I think it's hokey..


ReplayTVs do support IR blasters, and they are hokey.

The thing about it is that the IR codes within the firmware haven't been updated for years. So in order to drive a digital set top box tuner may require a rather elaborate and tricky process to inject the required codes. It's a process that is not for the typical casual user, so maybe the mentioning of analog is not so tangential.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

The other thing is IR blasters never seem to work very well because the boxes they control can often lag (e.g., cable STBs often lag a lot). As a result, watching TV using a blaster is more a case of "channel roulette" - what digit(s) did the box decide to misinterpret this time?


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## thebigdoghimself (Dec 8, 2010)

If you look at Tivo's profit & stock history you see a continued downward spiral. The stock peaked at around $40 in 2000-2001 but has continued to plunge. Currently the stock averages under $10 a share.

They continually lose money I think this last quarter they lost .18 per share so my question is. Where is this "tons" of money they supposedly have on hand coming from? 

Furthermore with Ceton soon releasing its "Q" with no monthly subscription late this year I don't see Tivo hanging on unless they can pull a rabbit out of the hat?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

thebigdoghimself said:


> If you look at Tivo's profit & stock history you see a continued downward spiral. The stock peaked at around $40 in 2000-2001 but has continued to plunge. Currently the stock averages under $10 a share.
> 
> They continually lose money I think this last quarter they lost .18 per share so my question is. Where is this "tons" of money they supposedly have on hand coming from?
> 
> Furthermore with Ceton soon releasing its "Q" with no monthly subscription late this year I don't see Tivo hanging on unless they can pull a rabbit out of the hat?


stock price is not at all (OK- barely....) related to how much cash they have on hand.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

BTW, stock talk is banned here (unfortunately IMHO).


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## thebigdoghimself (Dec 8, 2010)

Hi you are right cash on hand is not based on stock price. HOWEVER.

In order to have cash on hand you have to do at least 1 of two things 

A Make a profit

or 

B Borrow money 

Well we all know Tivo has NO clue on how to make profit (thus affecting stock price) 

and we all know what happens to companies when they keep borrowing money don't we?


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

You have read this thread, correct? You are somehow starting to follow TiVo, and understand the various cash and services settlements they have with others? 

So, your A and B don't fully cut it here. You seem to mean A as a profit from operations, and don't seem to be including other sources of cash.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey, don't spoil the fun! Let's just rehash all the discussion that has occured here in numerous threads, e.g.:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=482001
There is no question TiVo has plenty of cash. But the assumption that a good business plan necessarily has to include satisfying every desire of existing TiVo customers is questionable.


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## dstoffa (Dec 14, 2005)

WizarDru said:


> From Replay TV's website on 1/2/2012: _After the announced shutdown of the ReplayTV programming guide service, we have had many positive, enthusiastic comments about the ReplayTV DVR products and services. In light of this response, ReplayTV and its parent company Digital Networks North America, Inc. have decided to continue the electronic programming guide service pursuant to the terms of your service activation agreement. We thank you very much for all of your support and enthusiasm over the many years these products have been sold.
> 
> As we have said previously, the analog programming that the ReplayTV units are capable of recording is in fact likely to be converted to digital signals in the very near future at which point the ReplayTV units will no longer be able to record such programming. We encourage our users to consider digital video recorders that have this digital recording capability as well as additional technological advances which are not a part of the ReplayTV units (all of which were end of lifed by 2006). For monthly subscribers of the ReplayTV service, we are exploring options by which you may continue paying for and receiving such service going forward. We apologize in advance should there be any minor disruptions in the ReplayTV service while we implement the continuation of the programming guide. Thank you. ReplayTV_
> 
> ...


I own six Replays. None of them talk to the DNNA servers for their guide data. WiRNS and a SchedulesDirect subscription replace the *mothership* DNNA servers. I am completely self-sufficient (well, I am not relying on DNNA).

DNNA was looking to cut costs by pulling the plug on the EPG. In June of 2011, they sent out a message to all boxes reading that "The guide data will end on 7/31/11." If you had a monthly subbed unit, it was made "active". They stopped charging for guide service.

Uncompensated programmers released WiRNS 3.0, and with the help of some RTV programmers, made it possible to imitate the nightly connection to the mothership for guide data, clock setting, and activation. For this I thank them.

While WiRNS 3.0 was released, DNNA had a change of heart, probably some advice from their internal legal department, and issued a stay of execution. The guide data continues to this day (for all units, free of charge), although the dial-up users are having difficulty due to hand-shake authentications and a diminishing pool of dial-up access numbers.

From a DNNA standpoint, they haven't sold a unit in 6 years or so, so they've recaptured the hardware loss for the units they've sold and subscribed as monthlies. There is no reason to continue collection of monthly fees. And in reality, there is no way they could effectively recapture them, since WiRNS has the cypher key to modify activation. If they ever sent a software update down, one can always put an older image on.

As far as Tivo goes, I have no inklings how subscriptions are controlled, but I'd assume some similar method is used. If the end of days arrives for Tivo, I am sure they'd unlock the units (or someone would be able to leagaly provide the method to do so) so that the Tivos out in the world wouldn't become landfill, just like what happened with RTV.

Cheers!
-Doug


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## 241705 (Mar 9, 2010)

I know some of the financial history and it's not great. However, the new products in the Premiere line and the "streaming box" (whenever that comes out) give me some hope that things are changing. Plus, the deals with providers, such as the recent agreement for TiVo to be a key part of RCN's "TV Everywhere" solution give me the feeling that TiVo could be headed for big things in the future. Maybe I'm just being optimistic.

I really like my TiVo DVRs and think there is no better DVR solution on the market. It is my hope that they continue to be supported with guide data for as long as I choose to use them. If, at some point, there is no longer support and my TiVos become useless bricks - I will be unhappy about it but will move on. After all, it IS only television.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

thebigdoghimself said:


> Hi you are right cash on hand is not based on stock price. HOWEVER.
> 
> In order to have cash on hand you have to do at least 1 of two things
> 
> ...


Cashflow and profit are 2 different measures and while somewhat related are not at all directly linked in the short term of a year or 2 or 3.

For example, at one point Tivo amortized lifetime subs over a certain period of months (36 maybe? And used for illustration below). So they would collect your $400 dollars of cash and put it in the bank but then that year they only counted 12 of the 36 months or $133 as income towards their profit. Then there are things like depreciation and the like. (Sometimes they measure profit before much of that EBITA. In that case they have $237 dollars in the bank that are not at all counted as profit. (if you happen to buy lifetime in their 12th month then they only get 11 bucks to count towards their profit and 389 would be assigned to the future.

On the flip side business deals could be structured so tivo is getting a lot up front and so makes a profit early and then later its a big lossy mess.

So cashflow really isnt tied straight to profitability in the near term.

Also- Im not at all a big time investor so I have no clue- but dont you also raise cash by C selling shares?

So while long term all that matters, in the short term they are not a problem- Im too lazy to read back the whole thread but Id imagine some said that with the cash on hand it would be YEARS before anything drastic could happen.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

thebigdoghimself said:


> If you look at Tivo's profit & stock history you see a continued downward spiral. The stock peaked at around $40 in 2000-2001 but has continued to plunge. Currently the stock averages under $10 a share.
> 
> They continually lose money I think this last quarter they lost .18 per share so my question is. Where is this "tons" of money they supposedly have on hand coming from?
> 
> Furthermore with Ceton soon releasing its "Q" with no monthly subscription late this year I don't see Tivo hanging on unless they can pull a rabbit out of the hat?


TiVo has won patent infringement lawsuits, settled others and has substantial cash flow from licensing agreements. Although it is true TiVo has been unable to operate at a profit, I am confident TiVo will be around for many years, the DirecTV agreement, cable company agreements and domination of the OTA DVR market, however small it is, will assure that. Some small market will buy a Ceton Q although it is rather stupid to claim it is important it includes no monthly fee since neither does TiVo if you want to purchase a lifetime subscription but you apparently aren't really trying to compare products, just post meaningless negative comments.

As far as ease of use and reliability, I expect the Ceton Q to fall way short of TiVo just as all other Windows Media Center DVR solutions do. It might be pretty good but there are many, myself included that will stick with TiVo, TiVo just works better.


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## thebigdoghimself (Dec 8, 2010)

"Some small market will buy a Ceton Q although it is rather stupid to claim it is important it includes no monthly fee since neither does TiVo if you want to purchase a lifetime subscription"


How does paying for a lifetime subscription (at $400 or whatever it is currently) the same as not paying for a subscription at all? That's beyond stupidity to even go there. 

Yes your right I am not a fan of Tivo. I had been a customer for the last 12+ years. Both my Tivo's (S3 & S2) have died (S3 last month) and I have been deciding whether to buy an elite or go a different route. 

I will be honest in stating that the reason I'm not a tivo fan is that after 12 years they wouldn't do anything to keep me because both my units had HD upgrades. (it wouldn't have taken much to have made me happy)

As for the Ceton Q that's going to be a killer. Go to Amazon or Newegg and look at the reviews on their 4 tuner cards they have a good following. Now add an extra 2 tuners a Bluray drive, 2tb of built in HD space and the ability to play back on any computer or on any TV with the echo extenders. Not to mention that you will be able to stream media from your computer or server to your tv, its going to be a pretty damn good package. 

In the end if it works as well as the companies other products it will change the DVR market.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

thebigdoghimself said:


> How does paying for a lifetime subscription (at $400 or whatever it is currently) the same as not paying for a subscription at all? That's beyond stupidity to even go there.
> 
> Yes your right I am not a fan of Tivo. I had been a customer for the last 12+ years. Both my Tivo's (S3 & S2) have died (S3 last month) and I have been deciding whether to buy an elite or go a different route.
> 
> ...


Beyond stupid would be someone not realizing it costs money to provide software updates, fix bugs and provide guide data. You can either pay for it in the purchase price, pay for it by a separate one time fee or pay for it by subscription fees but no company, not Ceton, not any other can provide it all for free and stay in business. Either receive poor support, no product support or pay a price for it in some manner, those are the options.

If you think any PC or other DVR purchased at the time you purchased your Series 1 and Series 2 TiVos would be a good solution today as a DVR, you are dreaming.

The way I look at the Ceton product, assuming it is actually widely available for purchase, is that it will be very expensive and a tiny niche product. Whatever happens with the product won't change anything in any significant way, HTPCs with DVR functionality have been available for years and are a tiny niche market.

What is the Ceton product going to cost? How does it compare to TiVo for most individuals needs, both price and functionality? What are the chances it actually succeeds in finding a significant market?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

thebigdoghimself said:


> ...
> In the end if it works as well as the companies other products it will change the DVR market.


It will still have exactly the same issue that keeps TiVo a niche product - you will have to use a cable card (& tuning adapter in some markets). It may be closer to a "one box" concept than TiVo but honestly I don't think it will matter. It will still be a high priced niche product.


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## davefred99 (Oct 31, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> It will still have exactly the same issue that keeps TiVo a niche product - you will have to use a cable card (& tuning adapter in some markets). It may be closer to a "one box" concept than TiVo but honestly I don't think it will matter. It will still be a high priced niche product.


The excitement for Ceton to me is more about the Echo extenders that will should come to market this summer. The Ceton Q is just an a Windows Media Center embedded product. Most of us HTPC users can whip up a Media Center PC in our sleep and with the Ceton or Prime network cable card tuners now available our only missing piece to the puzzle is an alternate extender box thats not an Xbox game player.
Tivo's Idea of the IP extenders so far is half baked and a non starter for many with the requirement of it only working on the xl4. Plus knowing TIVO they will undoubtedly want a monthly or lifetime sub for there boxes.


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## babyfragthief (May 30, 2012)

i have 3 tivo boxes, and my friend has 5 tivo boxes, how many do your friends have? we all love tivo, yes it would suck if they went bankrupt, but if they were defunct, and jumping little tivo guy, was no longer active on my tv,,;-( I would take them out to the range...but until that day....I LOVE MY TIVO's


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