# Native vs Hybrid vs Fixed 1080i vs 790p confussion



## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

Can someone(s) help me to understand which one is best for me to use please? If there's a thread for it just point me in the right direction. If it's out there I just haven't found it yet.

I have a Philips 50PFP5332D if the specs for the specific TV I have would help. 
Here's a link to it.
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/philips-50pfp5332d/4505-6482_7-32404752.html?tag=prod.txt.1

Thanks in advance for the help. I've read the help on the Tivo itself, but it's pretty confusing too.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

The best one to use is the one which works best. (Yes, that's circular.) You could try them and see.

What you really need to know is what resolutions your TV supports, your TV manual should tell you that. You also need to know which scaler is best, the one in the TiVo or the one in the TV. That's difficult to impossible to find out. The scalar is the bit which changes (scales) video signals from one format to another. In the TV it takes the incoming signal and formats it for the screen. In the TiVo it turns the signal as broadcast, to what is sent to the TV.

Once you've found out what resolutions your TV supports, you can work out which modes will work. If the TV does not support 480i, you might want to use one of the hybrid modes, or one of the fixed modes. The hybrid modes basically avoid sending 480i to the TV. Next does the TV support 1080i and/or 720p? If it doesn't support one of those, you need to be using one of the fixed or hybrid modes, so the TiVo is not sent a signal it can't use.

Once you've worked out which modes do work with your TV, you can then try working out which is best. A purist might use native, so that the TiVo doesn't scale anything, and the TV does it all. If 480i doesn't work you can use hybrid. Some people like to use one of the fixed resolutions as the TV takes a while to switch between formats.

I use hybrid, the black level on 480i is wrong for my TV (washed out shadows), so hybrid makes the TiVo sends 480p instead which has the same black level as the HD resolutions. I trust the TV to do a better scaling than the TiVo. Sometimes switching resilutions I get a few seconds of noise on screen, I can live with that.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

This is a matter of both technical and personal preferences. To me, letting the TiVo do the scaling is a better answer. Neither of my TVs switch cleanly when the input resolutions are changed, which quite frankly happens often when either surfing or going in and out of menus. For me, I much prefer the cleaner switches that I get when letting the TiVo scale everything to 1080i (Fixed). Of course you'ld need to make a choice that matches the resolution of your display. As a working video professional, I have yet to notice any real difference between the scalers in the TiVo and the TV that are great enough to dissuade me to accept the multi-second resolution switches that happen when in hybrid or native modes.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, I'm with MScottC. I can't tell any real difference in quality between letting the TV or the TiVo scale it, and the time it takes the TV to make the switches is too annoying--especially since the TiVo menus are 720 and most programming 1080, which means a resolution switch almost every time I go in and out of the menus.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

First, I go with Fixed because it takes too long to change channels with the resolution change.

Second, I couldn't really tell a difference between 720 and 1080 on my 768p plasma, I think I picked 1080 Fixed.


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## stream (Jul 25, 2007)

Agree with last 3 posts.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

I agree with the last few responses.

That device you have the pointer to has a display format of 720P. If you are not a purist or a videofile, just set your Tivo to output 720P fixed. Tivo does a decent job with the video process and you will have less "flashing" as the TV adjusts to the input signal when changeing channels.

I'm a bit of a videofile and I go through machinations like having the Tivo set to native, having the output go through a receiver that does video processing that outputs the 720P signal to my TV. In my mind, and probably no where else, I believe that the video processor in the receiver is the best of the three (Tivo, receiver and TV) and, therefore, I think I get a slightly better picture. My guess is that no one else that watches TV with me would ever see the difference. I'm very glad that Tivo allows the choices, it is a high end device and should have features for high end users, but for most people it just doesn't matter.

Al


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

The TV mentioned in the OP is 1366 x 768 and displays at 720p, so you'd probably be better off using the Native format on the TiVo because the TV is going to scale everything to 1366 x 768 anyway, and scaling things twice is almost certainly going to look worse than just letting the TV handle the scaling alone.


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## dshinnick (Jun 6, 2003)

Oh, jeez. Tivo's Output format, Tivo's Aspect Correction Mode, the TV's scaler....what a mess! I think some guru needs to write the definitive document explaining how all these pieces interact and the effect of turning on Tivo's option X with the TV's option Y, and how it varies if you're drinking beer vs. wine.

:O)


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Mars Rocket said:


> The TV mentioned in the OP is 1366 x 768 and displays at 720p, so you'd probably be better off using the Native format on the TiVo because the TV is going to scale everything to 1366 x 768 anyway, and scaling things twice is almost certainly going to look worse than just letting the TV handle the scaling alone.


Do you know if the TV supports 480i input on HDMI? Does it convert between input formats well and in a timely manner (that is, no flashing or multi-second blank screen).

The OP is indicating that he is not a hobbyist or videofile. I think it would be better giving the simplest and easiest solution that would cover most situations and give a pretty good picture.

Al


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

acvthree said:


> Do you know if the TV supports 480i input on HDMI? Does it convert between input formats well and in a timely manner (that is, no flashing or multi-second blank screen).


You're right - I was addressing the issue from a picture quality standpoint only. In actual use one of the other modes may prove to be more user friendly.


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## Joybob (Oct 2, 2007)

Just to contradict everyone:

I'm a big fan of 480p hybrid mode. Using the fixed 720/1080 modes doesn't work very well for analog stations since you can see the extra line used for Closed Captioning. The flicker when switching between 720/1080 is minimal and only lasts about a second.


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## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

Thanks for the input and education everyone. 

Here's what I already knew.

My TV supports 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i resolutions.
I'm not a videofile nor a purist, but I am pretty particular and picky about my stuff and want it to look/work the best that it can.

Here's what I figured out (so far) from this thread.

According to you all...what I end up using is most likely going to be a matter of personal preference. But, it's probably better to go with 720 or 1080 (fixed) because that'll help prevent lag due to resolution change during channel and menu changes.

When in Native and I change channels between 1080. 720, & 480 I get flashing pixelation and a black screen for a few seconds.
When my Tivo's in 1080 or 720 (fixed) I don't get flashing pixelation but, can't get any 480i.
When looking at it, I don't really notice a difference between 1080 & 720. 

Having said all of that...which would I be best with? I was under the impression that 720p was a higher resolution than 1080i since it was progressively scanning and not interlacing or de-interlacing. (** note - just because I use a few big words it doesn't mean I know what the hell I'm talking about. Just that I've read or seen it somewhere **)

(Also, on sports when the players are moving they're all a bit fuzzy until they slow down. Is that normal? IIRC that's one of the things 120hz is supposed to help?)

Again, thanks for the input. I really do appreciate you all taking the time to help me out. I'm just trying to figure this hi-def thing out and get my set to look as good as possible.

- edited to change 790p to 720p


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## Stephen Tu (May 10, 1999)

- It's 720p, not 790p

- Your set is a plasma set with 1366x768 native resolution, so inherently progressive. Everything sent to the set, whether 480i/480p, 720p/1080i, is going to be converted to that native res for display. Almost certainly native/hybrid is going to be the best video quality (smallest # of scaling/interlacing/deinterlacing operations), but if you can't tell much difference and want to get rid of the glitches due to the Tivo/TV re-syncing, I would probably use 720p fixed on your set. That way at least 720p video is minimally affected.

- 720p is not a "higher resolution" than 1080i. 1080i has 1920 pixels across, 720 has only 1280. For static images 1080i is clearly higher resolution. The difference is the vertical, 720p has 720 pixels vertically, every frame, while 1080i is interlaced with 1080 pixels vertically but split into two 540 fields. So if there is movement in the picture it effectively cuts the resolution for 1080i.

Fuzzier picture during motion -- there are probably lots of pieces in the video chain that contribute to that, motion is hard. Some of it is the broadcast itself, some may be your display. Probably worse with a 1080i broadcast.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

jacksonian said:


> First, I go with Fixed because it takes too long to change channels with the resolution change.
> 
> Second, I couldn't really tell a difference between 720 and 1080 on my 768p plasma, I think I picked 1080 Fixed.


Jacksonian,

If I were you, I'd go to 720p Fixed... The goal is to match the TiVo to the native resolution of your set. Tho the number you quote is 768, I'd venture to say the true resolution of your set is indeed 720p. There is no reason to upres and force interlace only to downres and create progressive scan.


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## Laserfan (Apr 25, 2000)

MScottC said:


> The goal is to match the TiVo to the native resolution of your set. Tho the number you quote is 768, I'd venture to say the true resolution of your set is indeed 720p. There is no reason to upres and force interlace only to downres and create progressive scan.


This is wrong! The goal is to obtain the best PQ on the OP's display, with the least amount of distraction/fiddling.

I have a Sony with 1366x768 and it scales EVERYTHING that comes in to it, period. There is no way to match Tivo output with the set's "native resolution". I have tried 720p and 1080i, and for this set down-rezzing 1080i looks better than 720p.

So the OP should try fixed 1080i and fixed 720p and see which displays best. I would never use the Tivo's NATIVE mode, for then it outputs whatever the TV channel is broadcasting, which results in switching anomalies.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

My TV supports all formats from 480i to 1080p and I prefer Native mode for the following reasons:

1. My TV seems to scale better than the TiVo (it should since it was a lot more expensive). The TV does special processing on SD content to make it look better.
2. My TV has separate settings for HD and SD content on the same input and remembers them. So, for example, HD is always displayed widescreen and SD is displayed letterboxed (black bars on the side). Also setting "zoom" mode on SD (for "widescreen" SD shows), does not zoom HD content, so the TiVo menu looks normal when I zoom a SD program. If the TiVo upscaled all SD content to 1080i, then my TV would think all programming was HD and I'd lose the ability to set things specifically for SD. I could use Hybrid mode to get around this, but I might as well just use Native.

The above benefits outweigh the negative of having to wait a few seconds when switching resolutions. In fact switching resolutions doesn't bother me with the exception of trying to turn CC on and off (TiVo please allow this to be done without having to go into the menus).

If I had a cheaper TV with less features, I'd probably be tempted to use fixed mode.


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## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

* Resolution
* 1366 x 768

* Display Format
* 720p

* Input Video Formats
* 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i 

These are the specs for mine. So you all think the 720p fixed, not 1080i fixed, would be best for my Tivo/TV set?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Personally I'd choose Native or hybrid, but if you want to go fixed, I'd say it depends on what you watch. If you mainly watch 1080i content, choose 1080i fixed. If you mainly watch 720p or 480i/p content, choose 720p. 

The reasoning is that you want to limit the number of times a program is scaled. A 720p channel can be fed directly to your TV as 720p, which will scale it to 768. If the TiVo scales it to 1080i, the TV is just going to have to scale it back to 768 any way. A 1080i channel would downscale to your 768 on your TV. If the TiVo downscaled it to 720p first, then the TV would need to upscale it to 768 and you'd lose 48 lines of resolution.

Your best bet, is to just try 1080i fixed for a while and then 720p fixed and see if you can tell the difference. If you can't then it doesn't make a difference what setting you use. If you can, then use the setting that looks better.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Ok, since this has moved over to how to get the best picture to a display, the best way is to use an external scaler, something like the iScan&#8482; VP50PRO, that can output the native resolution of 1366 X 768 of the OPs TV. The Tivo would then be set to Native to output the original image with no scaling, the iScan would then do all of the scaling using a high end scaler, the TV would have to do no scaling at all. This setup provides for a single scaling of the image at the users location and should produce the best image possible of the received image.

I still say there are easier, and less expensive, ways to go and most viewers won't notice the difference on anything less than a projection screen.

Al


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## Stephen Tu (May 10, 1999)

Geez, you're offering up the VP50Pro (MSRP $3499) as a solution to people with 768 flat panels?? That's a solution for people who are loaded & are using 100"+ $20k FP setups. Even their cheaper VPs are overkill. Not to mention that many of those plasmas/LCDs probably don't accept a 768 signal anyway. It'd be better to just buy a new 1080p set w/ a decent internal VP ...


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Actually, I was trying to point out that we keep going down the path of "the very best picture possible", instead of the simple but good enough answer to the question that the OP seemed to be asking.

I, personally, like the discussion about how to tweek the last possible bit of performance out of things, but I just keep getting the image of some poor guy with big open eyes thinking "I just wanted to know what output format to set".

Al


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

How about "the very best picture possible" given only the TiVo and the OPs TV? With those qualifications I would reiterate that using TiVo Native output and letting the TV handle all the scaling is likely to produce the best PQ since the image would only have to be scaled once.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

And I would "reiterate" that for the _*best overall viewing experience*, _1080i or 720p FIXED (matching your disply resolution) is the best. The scaler in the TiVo does a very fine job, and eliminates all the resolution change glitching that the native and hybrid modes causes in most displays.

But again, this is all a matter of personal preferences.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

I think MScottC has it nailed for most people that "just want to watch TV".

Al


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

MScottC said:


> And I would "reiterate" that for the _*best overall viewing experience*, _1080i or 720p FIXED (matching your disply resolution) is the best. The scaler in the TiVo does a very fine job, and eliminates all the resolution change glitching that the native and hybrid modes causes in most displays.
> 
> But again, this is all a matter of personal preferences.


for a 1080p set, would you set it for 1080i, or 720p fixed? ive got absolutely no experience with an s3 or tivo hd and ill be setting one up over the weekend for my ma.


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## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

acvthree said:


> I just keep getting the image of some poor guy with big open eyes thinking "I just wanted to know what output format to set".
> 
> Al


(In my best Arnold Horshack imitation) OOOOOOHHHHH! OOOOOOHHHHH! OOOOOOHHHHH! THAT'S ME MR. KOTTER! THAT'S ME MR. KOTTER!

Thing is, I think what I'm asking is in both of these posts. 
"the very best picture possible given only the TiVo and the OPs TV"
&
"best overall viewing experience" given only the Tivo the and OPs TV"



Mars Rocket said:


> How about "the very best picture possible" given only the TiVo and the OPs TV? With those qualifications I would reiterate that using TiVo Native output and letting the TV handle all the scaling is likely to produce the best PQ since the image would only have to be scaled once.





MScottC said:


> And I would "reiterate" that for the _*best overall viewing experience*, _1080i or 720p FIXED (matching your disply resolution) is the best. The scaler in the TiVo does a very fine job, and eliminates all the resolution change glitching that the native and hybrid modes causes in most displays.


Both of the above posts seem logical and make sense to me. But, they're different. 

Is "display resolution" the same as "display format"? i.e. 720p?
AND, how can I tell what looks best other than thinking "ok, that looks good". What I mean is, should I be looking at black areas, or whites, or corners, or edges, or what?

* Resolution
* 1366 x 768

* Display Format
* 720p

* Input Video Formats
* 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i

I'll eventually get the grasp of everything you all are saying. I really will. I like digging into this kind of stuff. I just can't get elbow deep into it right now.

p.s. Does OP mean original poster?


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

Billyh1026 said:


> p.s. Does OP mean original poster?


Yes.

The problem is that we don't know what exactly the manufacturer means by "Display Format". There are two possibilities:

1. All incoming signals are scaled to 1366x768 because that's the native resolution of the display.

2. The display may use a subset of the available pixels and display a true 1280x720 picture, centered on the entire screen.

If it's option 2 then letting the TiVo scale everything to 720p is the best choice because you never see any resolution changing artifacts or delays, and the TV wouldn't have to do any scaling itself.

If it's option 1 then I still say that sending the signal out in its native mode and letting the TV scale things by itself is the best choice, because doing it the other way would mean that for 1080i signals (or for 720p signals if you choose a 1080i output) there would be two levels of processing - one at the TiVo and one at the TV. There's no way you can scale an image twice and not lose some PQ.


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## BobB (Aug 26, 2002)

> And I would "reiterate" that for the best overall viewing experience, 1080i or 720p FIXED (matching your disply resolution) is the best. The scaler in the TiVo does a very fine job, and eliminates all the resolution change glitching that the native and hybrid modes causes in most displays.


But again, this is all a matter of personal preferences.



acvthree said:


> I think MScottC has it nailed for most people that "just want to watch TV".Al


Quite so. It's probably the right recommendation for the average viewer who finds the constant format-change wait annoying and may not notice the subtle loss of picture quality on some (not all) channels.

But speaking just for myself, I was definitely able to see the difference when using a fixed output meant that the original had to go through an extra generation of format conversion. Annoying as I find the wait (and on my Pioneer plasma that wait can be close to five seconds), the loss of picture quality was worse.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

BobB said:


> Quite so. It's probably the right recommendation for the average viewer who finds the constant format-change wait annoying and may not notice the subtle loss of picture quality on some (not all) channels.


It probably depends on how much the user watches live tv. Also, if the TiVo would keep the current resolution (720p or 1080i) for the menus as the last program being watched, then there would not be as much resolution changing so it wouldn't be as big a deal to run native mode.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

This is why I wish there were an HD-native and SD-upscaled video mode. My 1366X768 TV does a poor job with SD video compared to the TiVo, but HD video (in either HD resolution) looks much better when my TV gets it in its native resolution. So, I'd prefer to send 480i, 480p and 720p content in 720p, and 1080i content in 1080i. Since there is no such mode, I leave it set to 720p fixed, and will go in and toggle the mode (five deep into the menu :down when I watch a 1080i show.

As far as video scalers go, I don't think my TV can accept a 1360X768 or 1366X768 signal on any input but the VGA, anyway. So, I couldn't send a signal in the native resolution over the HDMI even if I wanted to.


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## bcwaller (Nov 6, 2007)

rickmeoff said:


> for a 1080p set, would you set it for 1080i, or 720p fixed? ive got absolutely no experience with an s3 or tivo hd and ill be setting one up over the weekend for my ma.


I would guess you will want to set it to 1080i fixed. If the set is an expensive one that has a great scaler, and has preferences for different types of input (SD/HD) like an earlier poster, then maybe not.

I got my TiVo a month ago and asked this same question. I really did not get responses as helpful as some here, but I did choose 1080i fixed. It solves the issue of the TV taking a second to switch formats when you move between 1080, 720, and 480 content. Since the TiVo can do the basic, zoom, and stretch modes, this solves the need for me to use my TV remote ever.

I'm assuming the TiVo does as good a job scaling as my low end TV, and it makes it faster to switch channels when I set it at 1080i fixed for my 1080p capable set.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

bcwaller said:


> I would guess you will want to set it to 1080i fixed. If the set is an expensive one that has a great scaler, and has preferences for different types of input (SD/HD) like an earlier poster, then maybe not.
> 
> I got my TiVo a month ago and asked this same question. I really did not get responses as helpful as some here, but I did choose 1080i fixed. It solves the issue of the TV taking a second to switch formats when you move between 1080, 720, and 480 content. Since the TiVo can do the basic, zoom, and stretch modes, this solves the need for me to use my TV remote ever.
> 
> I'm assuming the TiVo does as good a job scaling as my low end TV, and it makes it faster to switch channels when I set it at 1080i fixed for my 1080p capable set.


thank you. its a sony bravia 50e3000, and id imagine the scaler is probably nothing special.

since this is for me ma, im looking for the simplest solution with the least amount of hassle.


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## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

Thanks for all the input guys. It's been a huge education for me. I'm finding myself trying different the different modes.  They all have their pro's and con's. Thing is...I just have to figure out which one works best for me now.


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## rader023 (Dec 29, 2007)

aindik said:


> This is why I wish there were an HD-native and SD-upscaled video mode. My 1366X768 TV does a poor job with SD video compared to the TiVo, but HD video (in either HD resolution) looks much better when my TV gets it in its native resolution. So, I'd prefer to send 480i, 480p and 720p content in 720p, and 1080i content in 1080i. Since there is no such mode, I leave it set to 720p fixed, and will go in and toggle the mode (five deep into the menu :down when I watch a 1080i show.
> 
> As far as video scalers go, I don't think my TV can accept a 1360X768 or 1366X768 signal on any input but the VGA, anyway. So, I couldn't send a signal in the native resolution over the HDMI even if I wanted to.


Yes this would be a sweet option. If i could only switch between 720P and 1080I for my 768P panny plasma I would be in heaven. In my experience the Panasonic does not handle 1080i content in 720P well. Sports programs tend to have flickering scores....... SD doesnt matter to me so we could keep that in 720P or even just have it output in the last HD resolution that was used to reduce switching. Nothing is perfect though


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## ADGrant (Jul 2, 2002)

Mars Rocket said:


> The TV mentioned in the OP is 1366 x 768 and displays at 720p, so you'd probably be better off using the Native format on the TiVo because the TV is going to scale everything to 1366 x 768 anyway, and scaling things twice is almost certainly going to look worse than just letting the TV handle the scaling alone.


It would depend on how good the Tivo deinterlacer is relative to the TV's deinterlacer.


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## ADGrant (Jul 2, 2002)

rickmeoff said:


> for a 1080p set, would you set it for 1080i, or 720p fixed? ive got absolutely no experience with an s3 or tivo hd and ill be setting one up over the weekend for my ma.


You would not want to use 720p fixed for a 1080p set. Too much information will be thrown away.


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## IsItLive (Apr 3, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, I'm with MScottC. I can't tell any real difference in quality between letting the TV or the TiVo scale it, and the time it takes the TV to make the switches is too annoying--especially since the TiVo menus are 720 and most programming 1080, which means a resolution switch almost every time I go in and out of the menus.


Ok, I have noticed this too. I would like to use Native format but am currently using hybrid 480p/1080i only because nothing is broadcast in 720p, but the menus are in 720p. That means that instead of waiting for the TV resolution to switch about half the time, which I can deal with, it switches every time, and I cannot take it.

So my question was this: Tivo clearly has the ability to show the menus in any resolution. Is there a way to customize the menu resolution so that in Native mode the menus are displayed in 1080i or whatever resolution I happen to like?

Thanks, I searched around and this thread is the closest I've come to this issue. if I don't get an answer I'll start another thread.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

If you set your TiVo to any "fixed" resolution, that's the resoluion the menus will be displayed at.

I find it best to set the resolution to be fixed at whatever your TV displays at. SD will look relatively crappy whatever setting you use, so set it to look good for HD.


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## h00ligan (Nov 29, 2007)

morac said:


> My TV supports all formats from 480i to 1080p and I prefer Native mode for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. My TV seems to scale better than the TiVo (it should since it was a lot more expensive). The TV does special processing on SD content to make it look better.
> 2. My TV has separate settings for HD and SD content on the same input and remembers them. So, for example, HD is always displayed widescreen and SD is displayed letterboxed (black bars on the side). Also setting "zoom" mode on SD (for "widescreen" SD shows), does not zoom HD content, so the TiVo menu looks normal when I zoom a SD program. If the TiVo upscaled all SD content to 1080i, then my TV would think all programming was HD and I'd lose the ability to set things specifically for SD. I could use Hybrid mode to get around this, but I might as well just use Native.
> ...


The zooming HD content is an issue - i agree. Also running native or hybrid allows the tv to resync which removes the zoom handled by the tv. Also there is no 'just' setting aka the fishbowl on tivo. If i have to stretch content i need that mode. Additionally for Plasma owners, there is no scaling done if you watch lower res stuf - it just displays it at a lower res.. right? Finally, with the time the tivo gets the grey screen in between menu and program playing, most tv's will be finished switching no?


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## dmband (Jan 15, 2007)

does anyone have experience with tvio HD and samsung 6187s tv?
i had a 6187w and it worked perfect on native
but the 6187s doesn't work on native unless you have it on a HD channel
as soon as you try and go to a 480 program the screen turns black, i had to hook my laptop up and pretend i was importing a video to even see the tivo pages and change the setting to hybrid

also now with the 6187s all programs that are 720 show as 4:3 even when set to display at 16:9
if i set it to display at 4:3 the picture gets even smaller


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

I don't think the 6187 supports 480i, so if you're running native and tune to a channel showing an SD 480i signal then the TV will go blank. That's what Hybrid mode is for - it's just like native except 480i is converted to 480p, which your TV will support.

The Aspect Ratio problem sounds like your TiVo may be set for the wrong screen shape.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

h00ligan said:


> The zooming HD content is an issue - i agree. Also running native or hybrid allows the tv to resync which removes the zoom handled by the tv. Also there is no 'just' setting aka the fishbowl on tivo. If i have to stretch content i need that mode. Additionally for Plasma owners, there is no scaling done if you watch lower res stuf - it just displays it at a lower res.. right? Finally, with the time the tivo gets the grey screen in between menu and program playing, most tv's will be finished switching no?


The scaling is to allow 720p or 480 content to fill the screen (in the case of 4:3 content to fill the screen vertically). If you had a 1080 TV that didn't sale at all, you's have a black frame around all 720p content and a thicker frame around 480p or i content.

They really sell TVs that don't support 480i? That doesn't make sense to me as analog is not yet dead. Even after analog broadcasting goes away, there are still a lot of VCRs, non-progressive DVD players, camcorders and older video game consoles (not to mention Series II and I TiVos) that are 480i only, and your new TV won't work with them. Not everyone is going to spend the time transferring their VHS collections to DVDs, or replace a DVD player that still looks damn good with 480i via component on a big TV.


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

To clarify, they don't support 480i on HDMI inputs and maybe not component either. They do support 480i on standard composite video inputs. Since most (all?) S3 owners use either HDMI or component, this is likely the problem.


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## dmband (Jan 15, 2007)

Mars Rocket said:


> I don't think the 6187 supports 480i, so if you're running native and tune to a channel showing an SD 480i signal then the TV will go blank. That's what Hybrid mode is for - it's just like native except 480i is converted to 480p, which your TV will support.
> 
> The Aspect Ratio problem sounds like your TiVo may be set for the wrong screen shape.


thanks

the tivo is set to smart display 16:9 and 4:3
which worked perfect on my 6187w but doesn't work at all on the 6187s
its frustrating because the old tv worked great when it worked (had a power issue were it would keep turning off)
the new tv stays on but has all these other issues


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

If your TV is 16:9 I would just set it to that and leave it. The Smart Screen option is for TVs that automatically change their mode depending on the incoming signal. In my experience this frequently doesn't work because of the way the cable co. sends out the signal. Of course, this may have nothing to do with your problem, but I'd try the straight 16:9 setting anyway.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Mars Rocket said:


> To clarify, they don't support 480i on HDMI inputs and maybe not component either. They do support 480i on standard composite video inputs. Since most (all?) S3 owners use either HDMI or component, this is likely the problem.


That's a pretty general statement, and therefore wrong.

Many/most TV's support 480i over HDMI (like all 4 of the current HDTV's in my house, and I've never had one that didn't).

There are some inexpensive models and some older models that don't support 480i over HDMI, but that seems to be more of the exception, rather than the rule.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

There's a lot of conflicting information in this thread.

Your best bet will always be Native, as your TV was designed to scale all resolutions to the native resolution of the TV.

However, if you have an older or cheaper TV, the scaling in the TV may actually be pretty bad, in which case you *might* want to set the Tivo to fixed 1080i or 720p, whichever most closely matches the native resolution of your set. (For what it's worth, this really should only be used on smaller HDTV or ones where you're sitting far away, and you won't care much about the artifacts introduced). You'll never get a better picture with HD, but you might not see a worse picture.

The only real reason to use fixed is to avoid the delay going to and from the menus. Other than that, you'll never improve an HD picture by going fixed, you'll only degrade it (perhaps not noticably).

Also note that ABC, ESPN, FOX, (and maybe MyTV) all brodcast in 720p, as well as a bunch of the cable-only HD networks. So to whoever said earlier that nothing is in 720p is wrong.

720p source material will always look worse when letting the Tivo scale it to 1080i (and 1080i material will always look worse when letting the Tivo scale to 720p). It just might not be noticable to you on your set, but it's never going to make a 720p/1080i picture look better than when you send it Native. The larger and higher quality your TV/projector, the worse any fixed setting is going to look.

Bottom line - set it to what looks okay to you. Start with Native, then decide if fixed 1080i/720p is acceptable to you.

(The only other reason is potentially to improve SD picture quality, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to sacrifice HD picture quality for a marginal improvement in SD picture quality using the Tivo's scaler. Go buy a VP if you really want better SD picture quality.)


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Mars Rocket said:


> If your TV is 16:9 I would just set it to that and leave it. The Smart Screen option is for TVs that automatically change their mode depending on the incoming signal. In my experience this frequently doesn't work because of the way the cable co. sends out the signal. Of course, this may have nothing to do with your problem, but I'd try the straight 16:9 setting anyway.


If you set the TV to 16:9 and use a native or hybrid mode, it will send SD signals in a format that it expects the TV to render in (i.e. stretch into) 16:9 format (i.e., it will send the black bars if you use panel mode). Seems to me like you're losing resolution when you do that, unless you use the TiVo's zoom or stretch mode. Right?

If your TV is like mine, it expects that a 480i or 480p signal is 4:3, and will display it like that unless manually put in stretch mode. So, if you don't set your TV to stretch, and you set the TiVo to panel, you have two sets of bars and a squished picture. If you DO set your TV to stretch, it will (at least in my case) probably perform some kind of alteration of HD signals too (mine will overscan them), requiring you to turn on and off the stretch setting every time you change the resolution of what you're watching.

If you set the TV to 4:3 smart screen and use a native or hybrid mode, it will send SD signals in a 480i 4:3 format (i.e., the native format in which it was recoreded). It will also render its own menus in that format (because it thinks the screen is 4:3 and doesn't expect you to want letterboxed menus). You will not, however, be able to use the TiVo's aspect ratio controls at all on SD content. You are stuck with whatever aspect ratio controls are available from your TV.

Because my TV doesn't have a zoom function and also because the TiVo is better at converting SD programming to HD than my TV is, I use a fixed resolution output that I have to toggle every time I switch from 720p to 1080i programming or vice versa. This is a PITA. I wish there were two more output options:
HD Native/1080i SD upconvert
HD Native/720p SD upconvert


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## rodbac (Aug 16, 2005)

> Because my TV doesn't have a zoom function and also because the TiVo is better at converting SD programming to HD than my TV is, I use a fixed resolution output that I have to toggle every time I switch from 720p to 1080i programming or vice versa.


You notice enough of a difference between 720p and 1080i to bother? I consider myself at least moderately picky about IQ, and if there's an IQ difference between the two, I can't pick it out from where I sit.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

rodbac said:


> You notice enough of a difference between 720p and 1080i to bother? I consider myself at least moderately picky about IQ, and if there's an IQ difference between the two, I can't pick it out from where I sit.


Yes, I do. They both look much better in their native resolution than when they're not. I think it has something to do with the 1366X768 resolution of my set. There is always going to be a conversion with that. When sending HD content in the non-native resolution, you get two conversions. 1080i->720p->768p or vice versa. It doesn't look so hot. A bunch of motion blur when I watch a 720p show in 1080i, and a soft picture when I watch a 1080i show in 720p.

If I had a 1080p set, I might just leave it in 1080i fixed unless I got real bad artifacts from the interlacing on 720p stuff.


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## BobB (Aug 26, 2002)

aindik said:


> Yes, I do. They both look much better in their native resolution than when they're not. I think it has something to do with the 1366X768 resolution of my set. There is always going to be a conversion with that. When sending HD content in the non-native resolution, you get two conversions. 1080i->720p->768p or vice versa. It doesn't look so hot. A bunch of motion blur when I watch a 720p show in 1080i, and a soft picture when I watch a 1080i show in 720p.
> 
> If I had a 1080p set, I might just leave it in 1080i fixed unless I got real bad artifacts from the interlacing on 720p stuff.


Same here. I have the Pioneer 5080HD plasma, which has an incredibly good picture and a native resolution of 1366X768. I can definitely see the difference if I let the TiVo upscale a 720p program to 1080i and then have the TV downscale it back to 720p, as opposed to feeding the native 720p straight through. So I live with the format conversion lag time, even though it's almost five seconds (the one big drawback of this otherwise excellent TV).


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

AbMagFab said:


> That's a pretty general statement, and therefore wrong.


I was referring to the prior poster's tv (the 6187) - Samsung's don't (AFAIK) support 480i over HDMI.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

Mars Rocket said:


> I was referring to the prior poster's tv (the 6187) - Samsung's don't (AFAIK) support 480i over HDMI.


The 2006 Samsung HD TVs don't support 480i over HDMI (I have one), but the 2007 models do. Apparently there was some issue about the HDMI standard with 480i.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I have a Vizio 37" LCD. I have the TiVoHD set at 720p fixed. I switched this weekend to Native to see if the TV could scale better. Saw no discernible difference. But I did notice the lag time it sometimes took for the TV to switch when channels had different resolutions. I'm sticking with 720p fixed.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Stephen Tu said:


> Geez, you're offering up the VP50Pro (MSRP $3499) as a solution to people with 768 flat panels?? That's a solution for people who are loaded & are using 100"+ $20k FP setups. Even their cheaper VPs are overkill. Not to mention that many of those plasmas/LCDs probably don't accept a 768 signal anyway. It'd be better to just buy a new 1080p set w/ a decent internal VP ...


I wish I was loaded and had a 100+" screen, but I'm not and I only have a 65" screen. But the VP50 pro does make a big difference in the picture quality. And couple that with an Algolith HDMI FLEA noise reduction box and the picture is superb.


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## kingkong316 (Jul 13, 2008)

Reading this I am still a little unsure. My Tivo only works when I set it to 1080i fixed. Is this normal? I mean everything looks fine but when my fios tech came out and put in the cable cards it took him (Well me in the last hour) 5 hours to figure out that I had to set it to 1080i to work.

I mean everything looks great but I was just curious.


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## modnar (Oct 15, 2000)

Great thread!

I have a new TV (displays up to 1080p) and TiVo HD. I had set the TiVo output to 1080i fixed, but it sounds like I may want to give Native a try. I did notice some pixelation during high-action moments on the Olympics last night, although I know that could be NBC's fault.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

modnar said:


> Great thread!
> 
> I have a new TV (displays up to 1080p) and TiVo HD. I had set the TiVo output to 1080i fixed, but it sounds like I may want to give Native a try. I did notice some pixelation during high-action moments on the Olympics last night, although I know that could be NBC's fault.


NBC is 1080i native, so you won't get any improvement. NBC is generally moderate-to-poor quality with the Olympics this year.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

modnar said:


> Great thread!
> 
> I have a new TV (displays up to 1080p) and TiVo HD. I had set the TiVo output to 1080i fixed, but it sounds like I may want to give Native a try. I did notice some pixelation during high-action moments on the Olympics last night, although I know that could be NBC's fault.


You will always get the pixelation in situations like that from broadcast sources.


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## Martyp (Jan 6, 2004)

rodbac said:


> You notice enough of a difference between 720p and 1080i to bother? I consider myself at least moderately picky about IQ, and if there's an IQ difference between the two, I can't pick it out from where I sit.


The only way you would see a differance is if your tv was a 1080p set as just being a 720 set you can not see full 1080 i picture on it .


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## MichaelJHuman (Aug 3, 2005)

Note that you may have issues with Tivo renegotiating the display output. My series 3 continually changes itself to 1080i fixed no matter what I have chosen. I have not tested this issue with my receiver out of the loop.

My understanding of why some TVs will not accept 480i over HDMI and why many DVD players force 480p over HDMI is that 480i is too low of a bandwidth for some audio rates. There is not enough "space" to insert all the needed audio data. The workaround is to create redundant pixels, thus effectively doubling the video rate to 480p. that allows for a higher audio rate. Not all devices know how to handle this. I am guessing that most recent TVs have never HDMI chips that handle this.


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## s2krazy (Oct 31, 2003)

I have a Sony Grand Vega from a few years back. (no HDMI, component only) It does 1080i or 720p. I like both of the fixed outputs from the Tivo but I did notice that when using either in Fixed mode, I lose the ability to change the aspect ratio. I had gotten used to fiddling with it to fill the screen with the least compromise. 

It seems if I choose Native, I can change the ratio on SD but not HD. This means that if I'm recording a HD channel but they are showing a 4:3 image, I cannot override the settings to go the the TVs 'wide zoom' 

I am a bit baffled as to which is my best choice. Any thoughts?


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

s2krazy said:


> I have a Sony Grand Vega from a few years back. (no HDMI, component only) It does 1080i or 720p. I like both of the fixed outputs from the Tivo but I did notice that when using either in Fixed mode, I lose the ability to change the aspect ratio. I had gotten used to fiddling with it to fill the screen with the least compromise.
> 
> It seems if I choose Native, I can change the ratio on SD but not HD. This means that if I'm recording a HD channel but they are showing a 4:3 image, I cannot override the settings to go the the TVs 'wide zoom'
> 
> I am a bit baffled as to which is my best choice. Any thoughts?


You can change aspect ratio with the TiVo's Aspect button when the content is SD, but not when it's HD. This is regardless of your output mode.

Every TV is different, but many TVs, especially older ones, will let you use their aspect setting (zoom, stretch, etc.) when what the TV receives is SD but not HD. So, this will work when you are in Native or Hybrid mode with SD content, but not in 1080i fixed or 720p fixed mode with any content.

If your TV can't zoom on HD content (i.e., content it receives in 1080i or 720p), that means you won't be able to zoom on HD content no matter which output mode you choose. You'll be able to use your TV to zoom on SD content in "native" mode. You'll be able to use your TiVo to zoom on SD content in any mode. So, pick whichever mode looks best.


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