# Lost 2/2/10 LA X (Parts 1 and 2) Spoilers



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

1st hour over.... !!!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I LOVE IT! I went thru the first half hour with goosebumps! Arzt!!!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Sucks being on the west coast this week!!!!


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

Liked the first half and now regret watching this junk. Last thing I want is a temple and new stupid characters. All the questions payoffs are lame and the hair styles on the alternate plane 815 ride are so off base along with missing characters. LAME!


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Welcome back...

Liked what they did with Locke...I wonder where home is?!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

What is LA X?

LAX is the L.A. airport. But with the space? The X?


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> What is LA X?
> 
> LAX is the L.A. airport. But with the space? The X?


Pretty sure it denotes an alternate timeline. Like there is LA, then LA X. Seems that there has been something that used this nomenclature before, but it's escaping me.

EDIT: 
Ah ha! Earth X


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Not impressed....it's officially jumped the shark (if it already hadn't). It better get better or I anticipate a final season like BSG....


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

NatasNJ said:


> Liked the first half and now regret watching this junk. Last thing I want is a temple and new stupid characters. All the questions payoffs are lame and the hair styles on the alternate plane 815 ride are so off base along with missing characters. LAME!


It's an alternate time line who gives a rats ass if the hair styles don't match...obviously there are changes,


Spoiler



Hurley is happy, Boone doesn't have his sister, Charlie lives...Desmond on the plane and then not....


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

And to further expound on the Earth X line of thought...



> Earth X is a 1999 comic book limited series written by Jim Krueger...published by Marvel Comics. Based on Alex Ross' notes, the series features *dystopian future version of the Marvel Universe.*


I'd say that's a pretty accurate description of what we've seen so far of "LA X"--everyone we've come to know and love has a pretty crappy situation to come back to (except maybe Hurley, has his luck turned?).


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Seems pretty obvious they're setting up Jack and Sawyer to parallel Jacob and pseudo-Locke.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Not impressed....it's officially jumped the shark (if it already hadn't). It better get better or I anticipate a final season like BSG....


Have faith, brother.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I seriously doubt most anybody is going to really be happy however Lost resolves (or, more likely, leaves hanging) their storylines. I'm just sort of happy it's going to come to some sort of close and we can be done with it.

That said, it was an unexpected bonus to see Boone again. Most of the rest of the episode(s) sucked, though... well, I guess Sayid coming back to life was good. Though I challenge anybody to claim they weren't expecting it to happen.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

So is this season gonna take place on the island and off? All season? I originally had the sense that the LAX stuff was simply like a "what if" fantasy sequence, showing them actually landing, etc, and then we'd resume with the on-island stuff, but they spent a lot of time in 2004 and they _seemed _to be setting up story lines. It would be insane if they tried doing both story-lines all season--it's all the same actors.

I even thought that maybe all the survivors would end up on the island anyway (as if to throw it in our face that you cannot, in fact, beat destiny), but they went out of their way to show us that in that timeline, there is no island--it's at the bottom of the ocean.

Total Mind F***.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Love that the smoke monster / black shirt guy / fake Locke wants to go home.

Home is either away from earth or back to some really far future that it wandered onto the island from, just to get stuck on the island.

The comic book that Walt was reading from season 1 dealt with a trapped very intelligent alien, kept by the government in a bunker (I believe on an island, I need to go find that comic). I always hoped they'd tie this back into that.

I'm fascinated by the lack of resolution of the problem of how we're able to see a 2004 where the plane-lands/the-island-is-at-the-bottom-of-the-sea/hurley-is-lucky and yet still see a 2007 where the hatch remains were still there and the 815 stewardess was still with the Others. We're seeing two timelines? Or are we seeing an alternate version of 2004 that will be made to undo itself eventually to resolve to the first version we saw? After the great loose-end resolutions from season 5, I have 100% confidence that all of this new stuff already has a satisfying planned resolution.

I can't believe we didn't figure out that the guitar case had an ankh.

I can't believe we didn't figure out that Jack, being a SPINAL SURGEON, would have interest in a wheelchair-bound John Locke. I'd have thought that we'd have at least once said something like "Too bad Jack didn't meet him before the flight" or something.

Sayid waking up alive doesn't have any of my interest yet. So far that feels weak. Maybe they put up the sand a bit too late and he got in (which would only work if smokey could split and be in two places at once - otherwise they went out of their way to show us with the flare that smokey was faaar away when they laid down the sand).

I'd suspected and guessed last season that Ben's daughter was the smoke monster, and after the finale guessed that black shirt guy and Locke were the smoke monster too. Glad to see it so clearly confirmed and labeled. I'm disappointed in myself though for not having previously thought of even one more fact to convince me of that - the Locke impersonator knew Locke's history (of what had happened to him on and off the island), AND we knew that the smoke monster could read minds (when the camera went inside the smoke monster and we saw flashes from Eko's childhood).. Another link.

During the episode I called out to my wife that we should be able to compare the stories of what we heard on THIS flight 815 with what we knew before, and see details of exactly WHAT blackshirt/smokey "had to go through to get" there in the foot with Jacob.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Should have had a pool on how long it would take before someone would claim it jumped the shark or called it lame. Damn, lost opportunity.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

> I can't believe we didn't figure out that Jack, being a SPINAL SURGEON, would have interest in a wheelchair-bound John Locke. I'd have thought that we'd have at least once said something like "Too bad Jack didn't meet him before the flight" or something.


I said the exact same thing when Jack made that comment--five previous seasons and not once did that ever cross my mind.



> During the episode I called out to my wife that we should be able to compare the stories of what we heard on THIS flight 815 with what we knew before, and see details of exactly WHAT blackshirt/smokey "had to go through to get" there in the foot with Jacob.


I thought he was referring to all the stuff that led to Locke's death which allowed him to impersonate Locke, gain the others trust, lead him to the statue, and convince Ben to kill Jacob. My guess was that Black Shirt was responsible for facilitating most of the events, if not all of them, that led to that moment, for that exact purpose. It's a stretch, but the only thing that makes sense at this point.

What doesn't make sense is what Black shirt had to be led to Jacob's location, when it seemed obvious from the opening of last season's finale that he he knew it where it was. Why go through the trouble. Just grab Ben, bring him in, and do your thing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jeeters said:


> Seems pretty obvious they're setting up Jack and Sawyer to parallel Jacob and pseudo-Locke.


That is exactly what I thought. That the series will end with the island restored in the care of Jack and Sawyer.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

Cindy said "they were on the FIRST plane". So another plane crashed on the island also.


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## sender_name (Feb 12, 2005)

LA X is of course the L.A. TEN...there will be 10 people who survive the attempt to make it from the plane to the baggage carousel and then from there acquire safe passage home on public transit in the greater Los Angeles area....
Geez...


Spoiler



who didn't see that jack had his pen stolen..and then when charlie was choking he couldn't find his pen...I was SOO hoping Sayid would pull out a box cutter


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## TheDewAddict (Aug 21, 2002)

Wow, one off episode and people are already *****ing? I guess you can't please everybody. 

Was it what I was expecting or hoping for? No, but it rarely is. I'm looking forward to next week.


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

tiams said:


> Cindy said "they were on the FIRST plane". So another plane crashed on the island also.


Ajira 316 was the other.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I have to admit that for some reason I didn't initially guess that when Hurley saw Jacob near the van that it was because he was dead. I knew he was dead, but I figured he'd jumped around or something, I dunno. So was Jacob human? The finale from last season had left the impression that Jacob and blackshirt were two of the same type of whatever.. Jacob can be stabbed, and killed? But anyway when he told Hurley that others wouldn't see him, I was like "oohhhhhhh.... awwww..".

Very interesting that Richard was SO concerned about the Others NOT shooting fake Locke (because THAT was probably still against the rules).

Good episodes, if you accept the assumption that it will be resolved satisfactorily. How many episodes in this season?

Was anyone else routing for Sawyer to kill Jack?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Should have had a pool on how long it would take before someone would claim it jumped the shark or called it lame. Damn, lost opportunity.


speaking of sharks.. nice cameo by the DHARMA shark... I could have sworn I saw the logo, I need to go back and check to be 100%

Diane


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Was anyone else routing for Sawyer to kill Jack?


Quite the opposite, actually.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Putting money on Richard being a slave on the Black Rock.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I loved Black shirt guy/Locke's line "Now let's not resort to calling names"


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TheDewAddict said:


> Wow, one off episode and people are already *****ing? I guess you can't please everybody.


:up:

It's like that every season though. Most of the scenes that made season five awesome were made possible by setup scenes in earlier seasons that people booed here.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> speaking of sharks.. nice cameo by the DHARMA shark... I could have sworn I saw the logo, I need to go back and check to be 100%
> 
> Diane


Yes, the logo was there. Towards its tail end.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> Putting money on Richard being a slave on the Black Rock.


That's certain money. Couldn't have been more clear on that one, I agree. Jacob made him "that way" (presumably that he couldn't age). I wonder why blackshirt took Richard, and where was he taking him? (Presumably to the temple?)

Very much enjoyed both the scene where the van guy was able to protect himself from smokey with ash, and then where smokey was able to defeat him by smashing walls around him to get him to fall out of the ash.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Oh, how I've missed Lost.

That was a fun two hours.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

So is Jacob reincarnated into Sayid's body, like he did with Christian's (Jack's dad's) body? But Jacob's nemesis didn't physically used Locke's body. I'm so confused.....


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> Sayid waking up alive doesn't have any of my interest yet. So far that feels weak. Maybe they put up the sand a bit too late and he got in (which would only work if smokey could split and be in two places at once - otherwise they went out of their way to show us with the flare that smokey was faaar away when they laid down the sand).


It's the real Sayid. Miles made a strange face when he hovered over Sayid's apparently dead body. He was trying to communicate, but couldn't make a connection, and gave a puzzled look. Clearly it's because Sayid hadn't passed on.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Very much enjoyed both the scene where the van guy was able to protect himself from smokey with ash, and then where smokey was able to defeat him by smashing walls around him to get him to fall out of the ash.


I wondered what was going on with that. It happened too fast for me to really catch but now that you explained it, I could see it.

I am interested in the fact that the more we get into this the less important Ben is. The guy that creeped us out in earlier seasons now is just a pawn in the island politics.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

How did Juliete know that "it worked"? (Especially after just having said that it didn't work a few minutes before that)

So we've officially seen two versions of the same time - the 815 flight (and hints of changes predating the flight - like Hurley never having anything bad happen to him, Desmond presumably completing his solo/solar(ha) race around the world, etc. That should lend a bit more credibility to our observation that the picture frames changed on the wall of the grieving mother that Miles brought the dustbuster to.

And what the hell happened to Desmond on this version of the flight?

BTW, LAX without the space is the luggage code for Los Angeles International Airport, for whomever was confused about the X.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

betts4 said:


> I loved Black shirt guy/Locke's line "Now let's not resort to calling names"


:up:


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

hefe said:


> Oh, how I've missed Lost.
> 
> That was a fun two hours.


Yes! I didn't realize quite how much I missed it until I saw Arzt.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

scheckeNYK said:


> It's the real Sayid. Miles made a strange face when he hovered over Sayid's apparently dead body. He was trying to communicate, but couldn't make a connection, and gave a puzzled look. Clearly it's because Sayid hadn't passed on.


Yeah I remember thinking at the time "ok, going to need to look for a resolution as to what was going through Miles' head right then". I'd imagined there was some awful secret of Sayid's that Miles had just discovered. I'll bet you're right. Have to rewatch.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

betts4 said:


> Yes! I didn't realize quite how much I missed it until I saw Arzt.


and multiple scenes with Frogurt!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I also was wondering why Jack didn't start CPR faster and why he let Kate stop him. CPR can be given for a longer time then that and get results. Jack would know that.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Anybody who didn't like that isn't a fan of Lost.. so many things were finally confirmed, and we have the whole alternate reality (or is it) thing..

I can't believe they are going to tie it up in 15 more hours, but damn, that was an incredible start.. how anyone could see this as an off episode or jumping the shark is beyond me... why do you even watch Lost if you didn't like that?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> and multiple scenes with Frogurt!


I was trying to ignore him....


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok so here's something that will be interesting.. Will we now finally get some definitive resolution as to what REALLY went on between Claire and the psychic that told her to raise Aaron by herself? In season one Charlie postulated that maybe if he really was a psychic, maybe HE KNEW the plane would crash, and that there really wasn't any adoptive couple in LA. We just saw a version of reality where 815 DIDN'T crash and yet Claire was still on that very flight.

Eko went to see that psychic who later claimed that he was a fraud, and I can't clearly remember the rest (maybe that he was a fraud but that part was real? I need to look that up).

It'll be interesting to see where Claire takes that cab to and who's there when she arrives (if anyone).

Did anyone else wonder why no one thought to say "Hey, since we're taking sure-to-be-dead-soon Sayid to the magic temple, why not take Juliete too? Sawyer here loves her, and she was pretty nice.. oh.. and SHE'S AN OTHER, AND THE TEMPLE IS FOR OTHERS" ???


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

Did I miss something? Why was Jack's neck bleedng when he went to the bathroom on the plane? He seemed suprised too.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Did anyone else wonder why no one thought to say "Hey, since we're taking sure-to-be-dead-soon Sayid to the magic temple, why not take Juliete too? Sawyer here loves her, and she was pretty nice.. oh.. and SHE'S AN OTHER, AND THE TEMPLE IS FOR OTHERS" ???


She was dead, Sayid wasn't.


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Ok so here's something that will be interesting.. Will we now finally get some definitive resolution as to what REALLY went on between Claire and the psychic that told her to raise Aaron by herself? In season one Charlie postulated that maybe if he really was a psychic, maybe HE KNEW the plane would crash, and that there really wasn't any adoptive couple in LA. We just saw a version of reality where 815 DIDN'T crash and yet Claire was still on that very flight.
> 
> Eko went to see that psychic who later claimed that he was a fraud, and I can't clearly remember the rest (maybe that he was a fraud but that part was real? I need to look that up).
> 
> ...


But if it's an alternate reality she might not be giving Aaron up for adoption. Heck, she might not even be pregnant.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

sender_name said:


> LA X is of course the L.A. TEN...there will be 10 people who survive the attempt to make it from the plane to the baggage carousel and then from there acquire safe passage home on public transit in the greater Los Angeles area....


I was thinking the first part of that was probably right:

Jack
Sawyer
Charlie
Hurley
Kate
Locke
Boone
Sun
Jin
Rose
Bernard
Desmond
Arzt

Even dropping Desmond, who wasn't supposed to be on the plane, and Arzt, who wasn't really a main character, that's still more than 10. Oh well.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

SocratesJohnson said:


> Did I miss something? Why was Jack's neck bleedng when he went to the bathroom on the plane? He seemed suprised too.


That, the body missing, Desmond on the plane, and the fact that Hurley still won the lotto.. if the island was destroyed/underwater, how did Hurley find out about the numbers...

As usual with Lost, tons more questions than answers, but luckily they have to wrap it all up soon


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

betts4 said:


> I also was wondering why Jack didn't start CPR faster and why he let Kate stop him. CPR can be given for a longer time then that and get results. Jack would know that.


And I was wondering why, when Kate said "JACK!" during that scene, he didn't stop for a second and say:

"Umm, Kate, do you remember about three years and 40ish days ago, you know like 40 days after 815 crashed, when you and I were alone in the jungle with Charlie's unconscious body? Do you remember me doing CPR on him, and you being to the left of me relative to that camera right there, EXACTLY like that right now, and me SAVING CHARLIE?? Like, if I'd listened to you, Charlie would have died then, but because I IGNORED you saying "JACK!! HE'S GONE!!" that my CPR worked and he lived? This doesn't seem a bit familiar to you Kate? IT'S THE SAME DAMNED SCENE! LEAVE ME ALONE AND LET ME DO FRIGGIN CPR!!!"

Like what else do they have to run off to do? Hell, try CPR for 30 minutes if you want, otherwise we're still just sitting around. But it doesn't matter - she already went through that exact same experience with him, and given how bad she SHOULD have felt after telling him to give up on Charlie before, you think she'd have learned her lesson and let him try with Sayid.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

SocratesJohnson said:


> Did I miss something? Why was Jack's neck bleedng when he went to the bathroom on the plane? He seemed suprised too.


Because Damon bit him obviously..... This is a crossover show now, no?


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

EW has a blog post tonight containing an interview with Damon Lindeloff and Carlton Cuse in which they address some of what is being speculated on here. There are definite spoilers in the interview for the premiere -- and, again, some of the speculation so far in this thread is addressed and answered. There is also general direction given for the rest of the season, although no outright spoilers other than confirming thematically what they are up to this year.

If you are an absolute spoilerphobe stay away, but if you don't mind knowing whether your interpretation of the premiere was correct, read on:

http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/02/02/lost-premiere-damon-carlton


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

GDG76 said:


> Anybody who didn't like that isn't a fan of Lost.. so many things were finally confirmed, and we have the whole alternate reality (or is it) thing..
> 
> I can't believe they are going to tie it up in 15 more hours, but damn, that was an incredible start.. how anyone could see this as an off episode or jumping the shark is beyond me... why do you even watch Lost if you didn't like that?


:up::up::up:


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Ok so here's something that will be interesting.. Will we now finally get some definitive resolution as to what REALLY went on between Claire and the psychic that told her to raise Aaron by herself? In season one Charlie postulated that maybe if he really was a psychic, maybe HE KNEW the plane would crash, and that there really wasn't any adoptive couple in LA. We just saw a version of reality where 815 DIDN'T crash and yet Claire was still on that very flight.
> 
> Eko went to see that psychic who later claimed that he was a fraud, and I can't clearly remember the rest (maybe that he was a fraud but that part was real? I need to look that up).
> 
> It'll be interesting to see where Claire takes that cab to and who's there when she arrives (if anyone).


Kate and Claire in the same cab together.

Kate ends up with Aaron again?


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I love how they bring old actors back: Arzt, Frogurt (I can't place what he did, though), and mostly the flight attendant. She was kidnapped by the others, but we never saw her with them.

I think the bomb splintered time, and this season will be a race to mend it.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

And of course Juliette had to die. She is in new episodes of V this season. They had an ad during LOST. I saw her as I was FFing thru and stopped to watch it to make sure it wasn't LOST related.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

Incredible premiere. I am so happy Lost is back and it was better than what I was expecting. I need to rewatch again tomorrow but a couple things that really stuck out (there were a lot).

1. Desmond. I had the feeling he was "visiting" Jack in this universe. Like how he was flashing previously. It almost seemed as if he came from somewhere else and then returned. I know he said he was sitting elsewhere on the plane, but it seemed like there was more to his presence than what it seemed. Maybe his flashes were always between universes, not the future. Also, maybe his vision of Claire and Aaron getting on the helicopter were from this universe.

2. This parallel universe must serve some importance to the end game. I don't think it is simply a "what could have happened scenario". Plus, this show doesn't introduce something without it paying off. Add to the fact that Juliet seemed to know "it worked." Very interesting to see how this develops.

Cannot wait to watch this again.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

GDG76 said:


> Anybody who didn't like that isn't a fan of Lost.. so many things were finally confirmed, and we have the whole alternate reality (or is it) thing..
> 
> I can't believe they are going to tie it up in 15 more hours, but damn, that was an incredible start.. how anyone could see this as an off episode or jumping the shark is beyond me... why do you even watch Lost if you didn't like that?


Exactly how I feel. This was completely awesome. I love trying to guess what's gonna happen and most of the time I can't guess right, but it's still fun to try and figure things out. If you didn't like this episode then this show just isn't for you. I'm completely confident that the show will tie the pieces together in the end.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I very much liked that by having it specifically be Desmond sitting next to Jack, that Jack was able to look at him and have a look of recognition on his face, and actually say "Do I know you?". They can do that to make the average viewer think "Jack somehow remembers a bit of being on the island!" but they're wrong - he recognizes him because of running with him in the stands of that football stadium, when Desmond told him "see you in the next life, bruthah".


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> I love how they bring old actors back: Arzt, Frogurt (I can't place what he did, though), and mostly the flight attendant. She was kidnapped by the others, but we never saw her with them.


Actually we did see her - she was outside the cage on the other island. I think it was Jack that she saw.

Nice shout out to the two kids, btw. They were from the tail section and would have been heading to LA to be with their parents. Shouldn't we be seeing them land? Or were they on the flight?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ooh.. Ok, with respect to Michael not appearing in this episode (even though practically everyone else did, including the voice of the pilot), I wonder if there's a good reason for it, like if the car that crashed into him when he was going to go see Walt was originally driven by Jacob/smokey/one-of-their-minions, so this time he wasn't hit by a car, and was able to go to Sydney several months earlier than the 815 flight.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Kimmel mentioned it on his show tonight and it was something I didn't notice but thought was interesting. On the plane, Jack was the nervous flyer and Rose was completely calm. I guess it was reversed when we first saw them. Seems like certain things got swapped around in the timeline?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I think too many people were expecting a Series Finale instead of a Season Premier tonight.


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

Just noticed a nice touch, Parkman (from Heroes) reprising his role as the pilot of 815. You can hear his voice making the in-flight announcement when they are about to land in LA.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

SocratesJohnson said:


> Just noticed a nice touch, Parkman (from Heroes) reprising his role as the pilot of 815. You can hear his voice making the in-flight announcement when they are about to land in LA.


Smeek from 3 posts ago!


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Jack said very important, I believe, while talking to Locke at the lost luggage department. He said "Nothing is irreversible." Locke did a surprised look, and Jack bowed his head. Hmm. 

Now it would be really cool if I only knew what it meant.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok here's something.. Exactly when the crash was supposed to happen, there's some turbulence - not enough to crash the plane, but enough to drop a bag and get eveyone afraid. At first I thought "ok, so maybe the hatch WAS still built and Desmond missed pressing the button but not by nearly as much time, and the plane wasn't actually brought down".. but they show that the island is underwater and that Desmond is actually on the plane.

Ok, tired. Need sleep.

Where's Penny? I hope successfully completing that race got him in the good graces of Widmore... Or, maybe he couldn't enter the race because he never met Libby..


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

DancnDude said:


> Kimmel mentioned it on his show tonight and it was something I didn't notice but thought was interesting. On the plane, Jack was the nervous flyer and Rose was completely calm. I guess it was reversed when we first saw them. Seems like certain things got swapped around in the timeline?


Lots did. Hurley is lucky and happy, and seems to have some serious business acumen. I believe Sayid and Nadya are together, as his look at the picture looked wistful not mournful. Boone doesn't have his sister with him. Christian misses the flight, and Desmond somehow makes it. Charlie wants to die. Jin has a ton of money with him.

So, did Rose not get cancer then? Jack is drinking but seemingly in sorrow. He was very calm and cool while saving Charlie, shall we say, professional. Sawyer's still the con guy but seems quite spry, not the guy who just killed the wrong "Sawyer" in Australia. We can't tell Claire's family condition. Locke seems to have some kind of faith about him - did he really make the walkabout?

And Arzt is in one piece. Oh wait, that was true ... on the plane anyway.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Crazy start of the season, with the introduction of completely new environments and characters. I still love it though - it's fun with a show that feels thought out, yet keeps throwing stuff from left field at the viewers.

So glad to have it back on the air!


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Same random thoughts from the first viewing:

In the alternate timeline, if they flew over the now underwater Island; weren't they still off course?

No Tailies (Eko, Ana Lucia, Libby) on the plane this time, I wonder?

Even though they said they were at what was left of the hatch after Desmond turned the failsafe, it looked more like the hatch construction site in The Incident.

I know that it's implied that MIB and Smokey are one-and-the-same ("Sorry you had to see me like that"), but there a couple of things about that scene I don't get. What's the significance of the beetle that Brahm picks up? Did MIB become the beetle? Did MIB become smokey or did he summon smokey? If he becomes the monster, why does the smoke come from the outside? 

I think the reason Richard said not to shoot Locke/MIB on the beach is because that would trigger Smokey to come and kill all of them. Maybe Smokey is a security system after all.

I wonder if Hurley is destined to be the new leader of the others, since (only?) he can talk to Jacob.

In the alternate timeline Sun and Jin are not the people they have grown to become during the course of the series - I don't like the old Jin & Sun!


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Good episodes, if you accept the assumption that it will be resolved satisfactorily. How many episodes in this season?


Hard to say. 18 hours total; if they pull a 3-hour series finale (which is entirely possible) then you'd have 15 episodes, if it's a 2-hour finale, you'd have 16.



jkeegan said:


> How did Juliete know that "it worked"? (Especially after just having said that it didn't work a few minutes before that)


You're thinking the wrong "it". Not Jack/Faraday's "it" (blow up the bomb, reset the timeline), Juliet's "it".



> Sawyer: "You hit the bomb? Why?"
> Juliet: "I wanted you to be able to go home. I wanted to make it so you never came to this damn island. It didn't work!"


Her dialogue just before dying reminded me a _lot_ of what Charlotte said just before she died. Remember, Charlotte's consciousness was jumping back and forth, and at one time she was a little girl.



> Juliet: "You can call me sometime. We can go dutch."


It's as if she went to a different time. Then, of course, she says



> "I have to tell you something. It's really, really important."


It worked. It sounds to me like she feels Sawyer's home.



Delta13 said:


> Jack said very important, I believe, while talking to Locke at the lost luggage department. He said "Nothing is irreversible." Locke did a surprised look, and Jack bowed his head. Hmm.
> 
> Now it would be really cool if I only knew what it meant.


I was thinking about this statement, too, but I think that's just Jack being Jack, the all-important surgeon who can do no wrong.



Delta13 said:


> Locke seems to have some kind of faith about him - did he really make the walkabout?


Yup. He told Boone he wasn't lying, and I believed him. That was one of the changes, he went on his walkabout.



latrobe7 said:


> Even though they said they were at what was left of the hatch after Desmond turned the failsafe, it looked more like the hatch construction site in The Incident.


I'm with you there, although the dialogue went



> Jack: "Where are we?"
> Kate: "At the hatch."
> Jack: "What, they built it?"
> Kate: "Yeah. They built it."


It also begs the question, if Juliet fell down the hole at the construction site, why would she be in the imploded hatch? Then again, I also wonder why the Volkswagen Bus would transport along with everyone else.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

I was expecting Juliet to be taken to the temple with Sayid, if there was to be any chance of recovery. It was kinda' surprising to see Sawyer want to stay back and bury her right away. ??


----------



## Eptiger (Jan 16, 2009)

getreal said:


> I was expecting Juliet to be taken to the temple with Sayid, if there was to be any chance of recovery. It was kinda' surprising to see Sawyer want to stay back and bury her right away. ??


Sayid probably didn't think it was possible and thought what they were doing was stupid. I think he was done following them. And it's not like Jacob told Hurley to save Juliet, too, so Hurley didn't speak up for Juliet, either. I think he wanted to stay back right away so he could find out through Miles what she wanted to say.

By the way, I think by "it worked" she meant that the bomb worked. Why would Sawyer be "at home" if she's dead? Either she figured out the parallel universe thing or somehow she went to that parallel universe. I think that hints at the fact that we're in a parallel universe situation and that's why it was in there. Just my theory.

Does anyone fully understand the parallel universe thing? I can kind of understand that it doesn't follow the Back to the Future model of time where there's only one time line and so on Lost they've created an alternate time line that they don't get to live in. However, assuming they somehow got sent forward in time on their time line, it doesn't make sense that the island wouldn't be underwater. They still should've gotten blown up.

Elton


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> The comic book that Walt was reading from season 1 dealt with a trapped very intelligent alien, kept by the government in a bunker (I believe on an island, I need to go find that comic). I always hoped they'd tie this back into that.


Green Lantern/Flash: Faster Friends.

It's currently out of print but if you haunt some large comic stores, you might find a copy there.



Philosofy said:


> I love how they bring old actors back: Arzt, Frogurt (I can't place what he did, though), and mostly the flight attendant. She was kidnapped by the others, but we never saw her with them.


Also, we saw her in the Others' Camp when Real Locke first went there.



latrobe7 said:


> No Tailies (Eko, Ana Lucia, Libby) on the plane this time, I wonder?


Bernard was there.

I thought this was great kick off. The story is moving forward nicely and we have that whole alternate time line/dimension thing going on that I admit has me confused for now.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Man, I'm going to miss this show.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I just love a tree-climbing Kate. Don't know why, but I do.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> That's certain money. Couldn't have been more clear on that one, I agree.


I'm not so sure. A) Richard is white, and 18-century slaves were almost always African (the whole point of slavery at that time was that black people weren't fully human) and a slave ship would have had entirely African "cargo," and B) he seems to be a hell of a lot older than the 18th century (he speaks Latin, and comes from a place with Egyptian statues).

I suspect he's been around a lot, lot longer than the Black Rock...

As for people being on the "new" Flight 816, I hope there's a mystical explanation for it. Because it's utterly insane to think that all those people (plus Desmond!) would still be on the same flight without Jacob's influence in their lives. He guided them all to the island the first time, and this time (supposedly!) he didn't.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> She was dead, Sayid wasn't.


exactly.. Sayid was just mostly dead...


----------



## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> In the alternate timeline, if they flew over the now underwater Island; weren't they still off course?


Remember that the island can move so that isn't really at issue.

What an awesome episode! I loved how when Miles and Sawyer were brought to the temple Miles said something about Sawyer taking out four of the others before being knocked out.

The fight with smokey in the foot was so well done. I loved how Brahm put the ash around but smokey still managed to get him with other tactics.

Does anybody else think Christian was on the plane but was transported off the plane mid-flight along with Desmond?

Between the catch up show, the previously on, and the two initial scenes we saw that whole Juliet hitting the bomb like 4 times in six minutes.


----------



## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Also loved Bernard's comment when he returned to his seat after the turbulence. It was something like "Now I know how the clothes feel in the dryer"


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

danplaysbass said:


> Does anybody else think Christian was on the plane but was transported off the plane mid-flight along with Desmond?


Yes. I can't think of a better theory anyway.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Hey, look. It's Evangeline Lilly on Ebay. Seriously. Can I borrow 5 grand? Seriously. (Free shipping, so that's nice.)
http://stores.ebay.com/evangeline-l...15QQ_sidZ811253455QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322


----------



## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

I think it's great that they've opened up this alternate timeline at this stage of the game- it's not as if they had any substantive mysteries to solve or mythology to explain. 
And ditto the additional characters- with a cast this small they were almost out of explorations there as well. There's next to no one left whose story could twist or hold any sort of mystery.

I guess with this much time left in the series they felt the need to invent enough new material to fill all the remaining time slots.
Bravo, Lost.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not so sure. A) Richard is white, and 18-century slaves were almost always African (the whole point of slavery at that time was that black people weren't fully human) and a slave ship would have had entirely African "cargo," and B) he seems to be a hell of a lot older than the 18th century (he speaks Latin, and comes from a place with Egyptian statues).


Even though it has the chains, I don't think it's been fully established that the ship is a slave ship, at least in the in the 19th century traditional sense. At the auction where Whidmore bought the journal from one of the ship's officers, the auctioneer claimed the ship was lost after leaving England for a trade run with Thailand. And Locke postulated that because of all the dynamite and other implements aboard, the ship perhaps had some sort of involvement with mining.

And *is* Richard white? In the "Euro" sense? He could easily pass for, say Persian. Perhaps his early origin is as an Egyptian slave and he'd been enslaved for centuries by black-shirt Locke.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Hey, look. It's Evangeline Lilly on Ebay. Seriously. Can I borrow 5 grand? Seriously. (Free shipping, so that's nice.)
> http://stores.ebay.com/evangeline-l...15QQ_sidZ811253455QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322


"Lunch"? Is that what the kids are calling it these days?


----------



## catcard (Mar 2, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> I know that it's implied that MIB and Smokey are one-and-the-same ("Sorry you had to see me like that"), but there a couple of things about that scene I don't get. What's the significance of the beetle that Brahm picks up? Did MIB become the beetle?


It was not a beetle - it was a bullet that was smashed at the end because "Locke/MIB" was somehow bullet-proof.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> How did Juliete know that "it worked"? (Especially after just having said that it didn't work a few minutes before that)


My thought on that is she was doing a little Desmond mind-skipping or something. Right before she died, she started rambling on about some jibberish and Sawyer tells her, "It's me...James." And she looks up at him like she had just remembered he was there or something and then they kiss. I think her conciousness went into the alternate reality and she realized that it worked.


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I have to say I was really glad that I watched the 8 pm recap of the story because this is the first time since LOST has been on that I actually feel like I know what is going on!



GDG76 said:


> how anyone could see this as an off episode or jumping the shark is beyond me... why do you even watch Lost if you didn't like that?


I can understand it because there is something about the temple people others and their bad costumes that I kindof groaned at. Reminded me of where the Matrix went...



GDG76 said:


> That, the body missing, Desmond on the plane, and the fact that Hurley still won the lotto.. if the island was destroyed/underwater, how did Hurley find out about the numbers...


I think there ARE crossovers between the two worlds. Christian's body and coffin are not on the plane because the coffin (with Locke's body) is on the island.

Can anyone give me a refresher on the Boone character? I barely remember him...


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

danplaysbass said:


> Remember that the island can move so that isn't really at issue.


So it randomly moved to a spot that will just happen to be flown over by a now on-course flight 815? I suppose that's as likely as time travel. And I am assuming that the Island isn't as 'active' in it's underwater state.



catcard said:


> It was not a beetle - it was a bullet that was smashed at the end because "Locke/MIB" was somehow bullet-proof.


Ah, thank you, that makes sense. But then that leaves the question, why does Smokey come from elsewhere if MIB transforms into Smokey? We hear the monster's approach and he comes in through the door... and if he's bullet-proof, why go anywhere...?


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

catcard said:


> It was not a beetle - it was a bullet that was smashed at the end because "Locke/MIB" was somehow bullet-proof.


I think the smashed bullet had hit the wall. It went right through Locke/MIB and hit the wall because he's "made of smoke" or had already turned to smoke by the time the bullet reached him.

It seems that the same instant the gunfire erupted is the same instant that fake Locke vanished (and re-appeared as the "Smoke Monster").


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Cearbhaill said:


> I think it's great that they've opened up this alternate timeline at this stage of the game- it's not as if they had any substantive mysteries to solve or mythology to explain.
> And ditto the additional characters- with a cast this small they were almost out of explorations there as well. There's next to no one left whose story could twist or hold any sort of mystery.
> 
> I guess with this much time left in the series they felt the need to invent enough new material to fill all the remaining time slots.
> Bravo, Lost.


You just exploded Professor Frinks sarcasm meter 

The new characters are people in the temple... though I don't know how "new" they are.. if nothing else, we've finally seen the true "others" which is huge..

The alternate reality should be a neat sideline into what would have happened without the crash. I find both the LA and island stuff interesting and I'm sure they know how to reconcile it..

In this episode we found out:

1. Richard came from the Black Rock and is eternal because of something Jacob or MIB did..

2. Saw the others and finally saw the temple and what was done to Ben so long ago..

3. Know who the smoke monster is...

4. Jacob really is dead...

Despite all the new stuff, on the island, it's still Jacob vs MIB. We're just seeing the factions and all the players...


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

GDG76 said:


> .. how anyone could see this as an off episode or jumping the shark is beyond me... why do you even watch Lost if you didn't like that?


What? We're not allowed to watch Lost if we don't like the final season opening episode? Geesh.....nazis abound here.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

So the "alternate timeline" we're seeing on the plane has some obvious differences. For instance, Boone is returning without his sister, in the original timeline, they're returning together. Hurley considers himself the "luckiest guy in the world", not the unluckiest.

Locke tells Boone he actually went on the walkabout. Of course, he could be lying, but in the alternate timeline, do you suppose he really managed to talk his way into being allowed to go? In his wheelchair? That would be interesting, and would make Locke a more confident and less pitiable person in that alternative timeline.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Cainebj said:


> I can understand it because there is something about the temple people others and their bad costumes that I kindof groaned at. Reminded me of where the Matrix went...
> .


I guess I really don't pay attention to stuff like that... I didn't think they were that blatantly bad since I didn't even notice it... I'm more focused on the story and main characters than the new role players or someones haircut or if everything fits exactly correctly with what we've already seen...


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> What? We're not allowed to watch Lost if we don't like the final season opening episode? Geesh.....nazis abound here.


Who said you couldn't watch it.. fantastic jump to Godwins Law though..

I just don't get how someone who like seasons 1-5 couldn't like last night's episode.

I think there is a backlash since it is so popular now but I think the show was still in top form and we saw some real cool stuff last night...


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

GDG76 said:


> In this episode we found out:
> 
> 1. *Richard came from the Black Rock* and is eternal because of something Jacob or MIB did...


I musta missed that (along with a gazillion other things, I'm sure ). How do we know Ricardus came from the Black Rock?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

GDG76 said:


> 1. Richard came from the Black Rock and is eternal because of something Jacob or MIB did.


Well, again, we don't _know _he came from the Black Rock. The island was inhabited long before the Black Rock showed up (somebody built all those ancient buildings and statues). And as I said before, there are indications that Richard is thousands, not just hundreds, of years old.

(His real name, by the way, is Ricardus, which is probably a mistake because that's not a Roman name; it's the Romanization of a German name.)


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

No more flashbacks, no more flash forwards, from now on we get flash sideways.

I'd forgotten that the rest of the Others had been sent to the temple. It's too bad the sonic fence isn't transportable, because the ash, or whatever it is, doesn't seem to be an effective protective barrier.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, again, we don't _know _he came from the Black Rock. The island was inhabited long before the Black Rock showed up (somebody built all those ancient buildings and statues). And as I said before, there are indications that Richard is thousands, not just hundreds, of years old.
> 
> (His real name, by the way, is Ricardus, which is probably a mistake because that's not a Roman name; it's the Romanization of a German name.)


Agreed, maybe I jumped the gun on that...


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

GDG76 said:


> I think there is a backlash since it is so popular now but I think the show was still in top form and we saw some real cool stuff last night...


I think a lot of people had this idea that this season was gonna be explanation after explanation. That all of our questions would be answered. And (as someone said above) they were in a "this is the finale" mode. So the backlash may be due to the fact we're still getting story--and more questions--not just answers.

The season just started, and they have a story to tell. My guess is we won't see substantial "winding down" (such as we get) until the very last few hours.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> No more flashbacks, no more flash forwards, from now on we get flash sideways.
> 
> I'd forgotten that the rest of the Others had been sent to the temple. It's too bad the sonic fence isn't transportable, because the ash, or whatever it is, doesn't seem to be an effective protective barrier.


I don't really understand how there can be any protective barrier... as was shown last night, smokey can just rain hell and fire from above by throwing crap into the circles...


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

astrohip said:


> I think a lot of people had this idea that this season was gonna be explanation after explanation. That all of our questions would be answered. And (as someone said above) they were in a "this is the finale" mode. So the backlash may be due to the fact we're still getting story--and more questions--not just answers.
> 
> The season just started, and they have a story to tell. My guess is we won't see substantial "winding down" (such as we get) until the very last few hours.


Makes sense to me if it was episode 9 or 10, but this is the premiere. They do need to get in gear to explain certain things, but have plenty of time to do it in...


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

gchance said:


> It also begs the question, if Juliet fell down the hole at the construction site, why would she be in the imploded hatch? Then again, I also wonder why the Volkswagen Bus would transport along with everyone else.


This might've been brought up already, but I think they blew up the hatch as it was being built (in 77?), but now it looks like they're at the hatch after Desmond turned the key (was that supposed to be 2007?). While they were moving all the metal, there was the exercise bike and that certainly wouldn't have been in the 1977 hatch yet. So I think the hatch people are in 2007(?)


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> exactly.. Sayid was just mostly dead...


Actually, Sayid WAS dead...after drowning. You're gonna tell me a surgeon doesn't know when someone is dead? 

And yes, from an earlier post, why was Juliette in the hatch wreckage when supposedly she had been at the bottom of the pit? See, these are among the MANY things that don't compute....even in the Lost world.


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

cmontyburns said:


> If you are an absolute spoilerphobe stay away, but if you don't mind knowing whether your interpretation of the premiere was correct, read on:
> 
> http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/02/02/lost-premiere-damon-carlton


Thanks for posting this! I highly recommend that anybody who watched this episode read this. It's made things much clearer in my mind.

This quote from one of the creators is especially good to clear some things in my mind:


Spoiler



*LINDELOF: *Right out of the gate, in the first five minutes of the premiere, you get hit over the head with two things that youre not expecting. The first is that Desmond is on the plane. The second thing that we do is we drop out of the plane and we go below the water and we see that the Island is submerged. What were trying to do there is basically say to you, God bless the survivors of Oceanic 815, because theyre so self-centered, they thought the only effect [of detonating the bomb] was going to be that their plane never crashes. But they dont stop to think, If we do this in 1977, what else is going to affected by this? So that their entire lives can be changed radically. In fact, it would appear that theyve sunken the Island. Thats our way of saying, Keep your eyes peeled for the differences that youre not expecting. Some of these characters were still in Australia, but some werent. Shannons not there. Boone actually says that he tried to get her back. There are all sorts of other people that we dont see. Wheres Libby? Wheres Ana Lucia? Wheres Eko? These are all the things that youre supposed to be thinking about. When our characters posited the What if? scenario, they neglected to think about what the other effects of potentially changing time might be and were embracing those things.


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

astrohip said:


> I musta missed that (along with a gazillion other things, I'm sure ). How do we know Ricardus came from the Black Rock?


I don't think we know that for sure. We do know that MiB/Locke said to Richard that it was good to see him out of chains, which possibly could have been from the Black Rock.


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> Actually, Sayid WAS dead...after drowning. You're gonna tell me a surgeon doesn't know when someone is dead?


And he was hooked up to all that modern medical equipment and knew there was no pulse and no brain activity at all.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DancnDude said:


> Thanks for posting this! I highly recommend that anybody who watched this episode read this. It's made things much clearer in my mind.


And I'll add a +100. It's not really spoiler-ish, just info-ish.

Another key quote from the interview, especially the final blurb from Lindelof:


Spoiler



*Is there a relationship between Island reality and sideways reality? Will they run parallel for the remainder of the season? Will they fuse together? Might one fade away?*
LINDELOF: For us, the big risk that were taking in the final season of the show is basically this very question. [Lindelof then explains the show has replaced the trademark whoosh! sound effect marking the segue between Island present story and flashbacks or flash-forwards, thus calling conspicuous attention to the relationship between the Island world and the Sideways world.] This is the critical mystery of the season, which is, What is the relationship between these two shows? And we dont use the phrase alternate reality, because to call one of them an alternate reality is to infer that one of them isnt real, or one of them is real and the other is the alternate to being real.
CUSE: But the questions youre asking are exactly the right questions. What are we to make of the fact that theyre showing us two different timelines? Are they going to resolve? Are they going to connect? Are they going to co-exist in parallel fashion? Are they going to cross? Do they intersect? Does one prove to be viable and the other one not? I think those are all the kind of speculations that are the right speculations to be having at this point in the season.
LINDELOF: But it is going to require patience. Weve taught the audience how to be patient thus far, so while theyre getting a lot of mythological answers on the island early in the season, this idea of what is the relationship between the two [worlds] is a little bit more of a slow burn.


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

The interview posted earlier in this thread seems to indicate the season is going to be split between the 815 doesn't crash timeline and the existing timeline we already knew. Given we've already invested five seasons worth of watching for the existing timeline, this literally half-assed reboot in the final season is not terribly inspiring. 

I mean we can ooh and ahh about people on the plane that we haven't seen for a while, but this show already goes overboard on that stuff in place of a real plot moving forward. It seems really late in the show to be wasting more time. Is there a reason to care about comparing the different circumstances? Oooh, Oceanic 815 was a trijet, now it's only got two engines! Exciting!! Hugo is lucky now!!! That flight attendant is still hot!!!! The part of my brain that recognizes faces I've seen before is so excited that these actors could be hired again and be put on that plane!!!!!!

I hope the guy on the other side of the wall who doesn't like to speak English goes away soon. Listening to him mumble gobbledygook and then a response by his translator used up all of my patience in this episode. 

We went from flashbacks, to flashfowards, to now flashsideways (with a three year gap in between?)


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

ElJay said:


> The interview posted earlier in this thread seems to indicate the season is going to be split between the 815 doesn't crash timeline and the existing timeline we already knew. Given we've already invested five seasons worth of watching for the existing timeline, this literally half-assed reboot in the final season is not terribly inspiring.


Have faith, brother. They have a story to tell.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

GDG76 said:


> Who said you couldn't watch it.....


Look at your own statement.


GDG76 said:


> ... why do you even watch Lost if you didn't like that?


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

astrohip said:


> Have faith, brother. They have a story to tell.


they have a story to continue to make up as they go... 

at least this season they know it's the last one, and can write accordingly.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ElJay said:


> ...his translator...


I disagree with literally every point you made, but this reminds me...who is that guy? He looks very familiar to me.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> No more flashbacks, no more flash forwards, from now on we get flash sideways.


No exactly. Unless I misunderstand the people currently on the island are in 2007 and the alternate timeline "plane didn't crash" people are in 2004.

So while the timelines are separate (the 2004 people _aren't_ the same as the 2007 people) we do get some backwards/forward action in the flashes.


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I disagree with literally every point you made, but this reminds me...who is that guy? He looks very familiar to me.


I think he's one of the hardware store owners from Deadwood...the sheriffs partner


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

scheckeNYK said:


> It's the real Sayid. Miles made a strange face when he hovered over Sayid's apparently dead body. He was trying to communicate, but couldn't make a connection, and gave a puzzled look. Clearly it's because Sayid hadn't passed on.


Wasn't Sayid's first words after being resurrected Locke's last thoughts when dying? I'm sure that would be puzzling to Miles, too...


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I think he's one of the hardware store owners from Deadwood...the sheriffs partner


yep. John Hawkes is the actor, played Sol Star in Deadwood.


----------



## tms317 (May 2, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I disagree with literally every point you made, but this reminds me...who is that guy? He looks very familiar to me.


Yeah, that was driving me nuts, too.
He looks super familiar....
I see someone figured it out above me. I don't think that's what i was remembering him from, though.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

He was also in an episode of Psych, that's where I remember him from.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> Look at your own statement.


He didn't say people shouldn't watch. He was merely stating that he didn't understand why people who didn't like this episode were fans of the show. In other words, what about the previous 5 seasons was different that made this episode stand out as being something worse?

There's nothing special about being the first episode of the last season that means they need to start answering all questions, and not introduce any more. If you combine all 6 seasons together, this is just one more episode in the story.

If by the end of the series nothing is resolved, then I could understand the complaints. But sometimes it is the very introduction of new questions that leads to the ultimate answers, so I don't see why it's such a big deal at this point.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> I think the bomb splintered time, and this season will be a race to mend it.


My thought as well. Somehow now, this season is about picking which version of what's going on is the permanent one, and then making it so.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> Actually, Sayid WAS dead...after drowning. You're gonna tell me a surgeon doesn't know when someone is dead?


And people with no pulse or 'dead' from drowning have been revived before. I still find it amazing that a) Jack didn't try harder/longer b) he didn't move to do it faster.

Has anyone seen the movie "Sliding Doors" the movies shows two paralell realities running side by side, changed by one single decision, and how some things must remain constant, while some change, but the two realities ultimately flow together and unify. It sounds familiar.  It seems like a good way to entwine the two. It will be a fun season!


----------



## wouldworker (Sep 7, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> It's like that every season though. Most of the scenes that made season five awesome were made possible by setup scenes in earlier seasons that people booed here.


That's my problem with the show - they rely too much on "awesome scenes" instead of having a story that makes sense. Locke is the smoke monster! Awesome, but ... so what? What the hell is a smoke monster anyway? Care to explain that, Lost?

I had stopped watching after season 2 because it looked like there was no actual story and they were just making it up as they went along. When they committed to ending the series I caught up and have been watching faithfully, but only because I hope that they'll resolve some of the questions in a satisfying way. With every episode, I become less confident that that will happen.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Ok here's something.. Exactly when the crash was supposed to happen, there's some turbulence - not enough to crash the plane, but enough to drop a bag and get eveyone afraid. At first I thought "ok, so maybe the hatch WAS still built and Desmond missed pressing the button but not by nearly as much time, and the plane wasn't actually brought down".. but they show that the island is underwater and that Desmond is actually on the plane.


I didn't get that at all.

To me, either the plane crashes or there's no notice of the island's presence. I then just thought they showed the turbulence to let us viewers know that was the time when the plane crashed last time.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Any bets on how long it will take Sawyer to beat the crap out of Jack?

The smoke monster thing bothered me because we saw it scare Eko with the faces of his past but Locke embraced it. Okay, well, we understand about Locke and his embracing it because he loves the island. But why did it/he kill the pilot in season one and chase others throughout the rest of the seasons. I am feeling let down by the explanation that it is actually MiB. It is the one aspect so far that I just am unhappy with.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> And yes, from an earlier post, why was Juliette in the hatch wreckage when supposedly she had been at the bottom of the pit? See, these are among the MANY things that don't compute....even in the Lost world.


As the bomb went off (or instead of the bomb going off?) you see a white flash. They were all sent forward in time to their present day. But their positions remained relatively the same. (Can't really explain why Kate was in a tree???) But since Juilette had fallen into the pit that the hatch was built over, that's where she was after they finished their leap through time.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

A few thoughts....

When did the island sink? Was Charles and Eloise able to make it off the island? If not, then there may not have been a race around the world for Desmond to enter. If Charles did not make it off the island...who hired the guy from Fringe to get Locke where he needs to be (putting the idea of a walkabout in his head).

Also...Eloise was pregnant in 1977...isn't Daniel older? Does Daniel (and Penny) have another sibling?


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

So I take it that the "Alternative Jack & co" will now replace flashbacks/flashforwards as a storytelling device... should be interesting how that storyline will run parallel to the story of "our" survivors going forward.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

mrdazzo7 said:


> What doesn't make sense is what Black shirt had to be led to Jacob's location, when it seemed obvious from the opening of last season's finale that he he knew it where it was. Why go through the trouble. Just grab Ben, bring him in, and do your thing.


He had to pretend he was Locke who didn't know where Jacob was. Pretending to be Locke played a part in manipulating Ben to kill Jacob, and also got Richard to the statue. If Real Locke's body had not been found, then Richard might have entered the temple to have done to him whatever Black Shirt had originally planned.



jkeegan said:


> Very interesting that Richard was SO concerned about the Others NOT shooting fake Locke (because THAT was probably still against the rules).


I wonder if Smokey is not allowed to attack people protected by Jacob unless they attack him (or Black-Shirt if he is a different entity) first.



gchance said:


> It also begs the question, if Juliet fell down the hole at the construction site, why would she be in the imploded hatch? Then again, I also wonder why the Volkswagen Bus would transport along with everyone else.


The failsafe device was placed right over the pocket of energy where they were drilling, so the hole that Juliet fell into was also the center of the implosion that Desmond caused. The question is, did the bomb cause them to jump forward in time, or did they jump forward just before the bomb went off?



Shakhari said:


> No more flashbacks, no more flash forwards, from now on we get flash sideways.


That's what I was thinking at first. But we could potentially be seeing a flashback in the sense of, "This is what would have happened if Jacob / Black-Shirt had not interfered." Or we could potentially be seeing a flashforward in the sense of, "This is what will happen once what is happening on the island is resolved."

And if they are setting this up so that the no-crash timeline leads to the crash timeline, which then leads back to the no-crash timeline, then perhaps this is both.



Shakhari said:


> I'd forgotten that the rest of the Others had been sent to the temple. It's too bad the sonic fence isn't transportable, because the ash, or whatever it is, doesn't seem to be an effective protective barrier.


I don't think the sonic fence is better. Smokey could have dropped things from above with that one too. Having things that Smokey can throw at you or drop on you and being in a tight circle is the problem.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

I'm thinking that it wasn't detonating Jughead that created two timelines, it was killing Jacob that did it. We know Jacob is the one who always wanted our Losties to come to the island. He brought them there by being present in each of their lives at critical points. He brought the Black Rock to the island and Mib was opposed to it coming. So could it be that by killing Jacob, MiB was able to create his preferred timeline wherein the island is underwater?


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

What if Black Shirt is the good guy and Jacob is the bad guy?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tiams said:


> I'm thinking that it wasn't detonating Jughead that created two timelines, it was killing Jacob that did it. We know Jacob is the one who always wanted our Losties to come to the island. He brought them there by being present in each of their lives at critical points. He brought the Black Rock to the island and Mib was opposed to it coming. So could it be that by killing Jacob, MiB was able to create his preferred timeline wherein the island is underwater?


Except Jacob was killed in the present, so any divergence would be in the future.


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> What if Black Shirt is the good guy and Jacob is the bad guy?


I'm going to say 95% chance that isn't the case. Jacob isn't the killer, where we know black shirt guy is and has killed people with very little reason to do so.

The pilot, Ecko, and numerous other people who were unarmed and not hostile. He didn't kill Locke when he had the chance though. Very interesting.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Bryanmc said:


> What if Black Shirt is the good guy and Jacob is the bad guy?


Impossible. Both Bram and Ben (who work for Jacob) said that they are the good guys.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> No Tailies (Eko, Ana Lucia, Libby) on the plane this time, I wonder?


Not just no Tailies - but notice that Hurley, Sawyer, and Artz are sitting in the tail section? They were near the back of the plane. And Charlie didn't go running to the front of the plane to the bathroom - he was in the back as well.



Bryanmc said:


> What if Black Shirt is the good guy and Jacob is the bad guy?


I've been thinking that, too. We typically think of 'white as good, black as bad', but why not turn that on its head? I've not been convinced that Jacob is necessarily good this entire time. The Others did some pretty interesting things (brainwashing Karl, killing the Dharma group) in the name of Jacob. Good is certainly a matter of perspective.

A couple people early said that Cindy (the flight attendant) was kidnapped by the Others. We don't know that. She 'disappeared' when the Tailies were walking across the island. And we saw her with the Others. The Tailies assumed she was kidnapped, but I don't think it was ever said by the Others or by Cindy that she was kidnapped. She seemed pretty happy to be there when we saw her on the other island, and we all assumed she was brainwashed. But...maybe not?


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

GDG76 said:


> Makes sense to me if it was episode 9 or 10, but this is the premiere. They do need to get in gear to explain certain things, but have plenty of time to do it in...


Exactly. I really liked the premiere and can't wait to see how the season unfolds, but I don't expect any closure on anything yet. They have 18 episodes to do it. That said, I don't think people who did't like the episode should be outcast for it--not every story line/development is for everyone. I though the Temple stuff was unexpected but also a bit over the top, especially when Shang Tsung popped out.


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## Dashel (Oct 2, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I disagree with literally every point you made, but this reminds me...who is that guy? He looks very familiar to me.


John Hawkes. I recognized him as the motel clerk in the movie Identity and as a writer in a Scully-centric episode of The X-Files.


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## Dashel (Oct 2, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> I don't think we know that for sure. We do know that MiB/Locke said to Richard that it was good to see him out of chains, which possibly could have been from the Black Rock.


I took that statement metaphorically to mean that Jacob is dead, and therefore Richard is free/no longer his "slave".


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

No idea if this has been brought up but...

Do we know who's flying the flight 815 in alternate world? 

Is it the pilot on the island and if so maybe he knew how to steer clear of the island some how but still close enough to feel a bit of the effects of the islands magnetic wave...


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> Locke tells Boone he actually went on the walkabout. Of course, he could be lying, but in the alternate timeline, do you suppose he really managed to talk his way into being allowed to go? In his wheelchair? That would be interesting, and would make Locke a more confident and less pitiable person in that alternative timeline.


Hmm. That would be interesting. I was getting the impression that the result of "succeeding" in keeping the plane from crashing was that everybody's life continued to be, or got more pitiful. That it really turns out to be the "wrong" decision for everybody. But who knows at this point...



Paperboy2003 said:


> This might've been brought up already, but I think they blew up the hatch as it was being built (in 77?), but now it looks like they're at the hatch after Desmond turned the key (was that supposed to be 2007?). While they were moving all the metal, there was the exercise bike and that certainly wouldn't have been in the 1977 hatch yet. So I think the hatch people are in 2007(?)


Desmond activated the fail safe on day 67...November 27, 2004.



Bryanmc said:


> No exactly. Unless I misunderstand the people currently on the island are in 2007 and the alternate timeline "plane didn't crash" people are in 2004.
> 
> So while the timelines are separate (the 2004 people _aren't_ the same as the 2007 people) we do get some backwards/forward action in the flashes.


If it's 2007 in the island scenes.



wouldworker said:


> That's my problem with the show - they rely too much on "awesome scenes" instead of having a story that makes sense. Locke is the smoke monster! Awesome, but ... so what? What the hell is a smoke monster anyway? Care to explain that, Lost?


No...Locke is dead! Awesome scene!


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Alfer said:


> Do we know who's flying the flight 815 in alternate world?


Seth Norris, the same pilot from the pilot. 

He identifies himself in an announcement to the passengers.


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Seth Norris, the same pilot from the pilot.
> 
> He identifies himself in an announcement to the passengers.


Ahhhh...so a *Hero* is flying the plane!!

So he read deep into Jack's mind and knew to avoid the island....

:up:


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I wonder if Jacob took the form of Sayid, like he did with Locke when he died. Of course, I guess it all depends on how the timelines work here.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Actually, Sayid WAS dead...after drowning. You're gonna tell me a surgeon doesn't know when someone is dead?
> 
> And yes, from an earlier post, why was Juliette in the hatch wreckage when supposedly she had been at the bottom of the pit? See, these are among the MANY things that don't compute....even in the Lost world.


I think Sayid is still dead.

Smokey came back as Locke and looked and sounded like him. Jacob is now back as Sayid.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

whitson77 said:


> I'm going to say 95% chance that isn't the case. Jacob isn't the killer, where we know black shirt guy is and has killed people with very little reason to do so.
> 
> The pilot, Ecko, and numerous other people who were unarmed and not hostile. He didn't kill Locke when he had the chance though. Very interesting.


But it all depends on perspective. If "good" is the island which of them has taken action to protect the island and which has brought people (and destruction) to the island?

We side with Jack and Co. as viewers, but what if actually they aren't the "good guys"?

I'm not sold on this idea, just some thoughts.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

This is the point in the Lost discussions that I kind of hate, because I spend all this time reading posts, picking ones to quote, doing some work, coming back to respond, only to find that another 10 pages have been posted in that time. *sigh* Such is life.



Fool Me Twice said:


> I just love a tree-climbing Kate. Don't know why, but I do.


:up: I know why, it has to do with testosterone.



danplaysbass said:


> Does anybody else think Christian was on the plane but was transported off the plane mid-flight along with Desmond?


Along with Locke's knives, yes. 



unicorngoddess said:


> My thought on that is she was doing a little Desmond mind-skipping or something. Right before she died, she started rambling on about some jibberish and Sawyer tells her, "It's me...James." And she looks up at him like she had just remembered he was there or something and then they kiss. I think her conciousness went into the alternate reality and she realized that it worked.


That's what I was getting at before, that whole scene was very similar to Charlotte's death.



GDG76 said:


> The new characters are people in the temple... though I don't know how "new" they are.. if nothing else, we've finally seen the true "others" which is huge..


The way I see it, there were two new characters (and of course one we hadn't seen in a long time). Everyone else was scenery. 



> In this episode we found out:
> 
> 3. Know who the smoke monster is...
> 
> 4. Jacob really is dead...


Not only did we find out who/what the smoke monster is, but they did it in one line of dialogue, which is frickin' awesome. Jacob really being dead has other implications. He led them to the temple, and told Hurley to use the guitar case, all while being dead. Hurley actually saw him. What about Charlie? Ana-Lucia? This means that he really was seeing them as well. Or could have been. He's not as crazy as he thought he was.



Bierboy said:


> What? We're not allowed to watch Lost if we don't like the final season opening episode? Geesh.....nazis abound here.


It's not so much not being allowed as it is not threadcrapping. What did you think peoples' reaction would be?



Shakhari said:


> I'd forgotten that the rest of the Others had been sent to the temple. It's too bad the sonic fence isn't transportable, because the ash, or whatever it is, doesn't seem to be an effective protective barrier.


That's a VERY good point. What's the correlation between ash and a sonic fence? They don't seem to be very connected.



Bierboy said:


> And yes, from an earlier post, why was Juliette in the hatch wreckage when supposedly she had been at the bottom of the pit? See, these are among the MANY things that don't compute....even in the Lost world.


Except, again, this is the first episode of 16. Do you think they may want you to wonder about it in order to set up the plot? Just maybe? If everything was laid out for you it would be a pretty boring show.



ElJay said:


> I mean we can ooh and ahh about people on the plane that we haven't seen for a while, but this show already goes overboard on that stuff in place of a real plot moving forward. It seems really late in the show to be wasting more time. Is there a reason to care about comparing the different circumstances? Oooh, Oceanic 815 was a trijet, now it's only got two engines! Exciting!! Hugo is lucky now!!! That flight attendant is still hot!!!! The part of my brain that recognizes faces I've seen before is so excited that these actors could be hired again and be put on that plane!!!!!!


I don't remember, were you one of the people who thought the flashbacks were a waste of time as well? It's called storytelling.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I disagree with literally every point you made, but this reminds me...who is that guy? He looks very familiar to me.


He's Geddy Lee.

What?



wouldworker said:


> That's my problem with the show - they rely too much on "awesome scenes" instead of having a story that makes sense. Locke is the smoke monster! Awesome, but ... so what? What the hell is a smoke monster anyway? Care to explain that, Lost?


Uh, Locke's not the smoke monster. John Locke is dead. Watch it again, I think you may have missed something.



betts4 said:


> Any bets on how long it will take Sawyer to beat the crap out of Jack?


Yeah, I don't think I was the only person who cheered when Jack got a face full of Sawyer's boot.



Bryanmc said:


> What if Black Shirt is the good guy and Jacob is the bad guy?


It's certainly something to consider.

Incidentally, as the guy in the temple (Geddy Lee) said, we now know the ash is to protect against Smokey, something attacking the person inside rather than stop the person inside from getting out. Like a certain cabin that was circled with ash, the ash of which got broken.

Now let's see how many posts have been made since I started mine.

Edit to add: 15 posts. Eh, not too bad. 

Greg


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> I think Sayid is still dead.
> 
> Smokey came back as Locke and looked and sounded like him. Jacob is now back as Sayid.


But what happened to Sayid's body then?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Sayid being Jacob fits nicely with my theory that Sayid has been fulfilling Eko's role in the story ever since they had to write him out...


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Popular Science's take on the season premiere.  http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/reviews/4344737.html


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MickeS said:


> But what happened to Sayid's body then?


Plus, Smokey didn't "come back as Locke"; Smokey never died. He was just disguising himself as Locke.


----------



## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

pjenkins said:


> yep. John Hawkes is the actor, played Sol Star in Deadwood.


I think John Lennon and Secret Asian Man made a great Templar tag team.
Actually Secret Asian Man himself (Hiroyuki Sanada) is some sort of Japanese Super Celebrity.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

betts4 said:


> Has anyone seen the movie "Sliding Doors" the movies shows two parallel realities running side by side, changed by one single decision, and how some things must remain constant, while some change, but the two realities ultimately flow together and unify. It sounds familiar.  It seems like a good way to entwine the two. It will be a fun season!


I like this. It doesn't make my brain hurt so much.

And especially since Lindelof said in that EW article.... (not smeeking, just reiterating)



Spoiler



And we dont use the phrase alternate reality, because to call one of them an alternate reality is to infer that one of them isnt real, or one of them is real and the other is the alternate to being real.


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> But it all depends on perspective. If "good" is the island which of them has taken action to protect the island and which has brought people (and destruction) to the island?
> 
> We side with Jack and Co. as viewers, but what if actually they aren't the "good guys"?
> 
> I'm not sold on this idea, just some thoughts.


Yeah, I'm all about kicking the tires on all sorts of theories. I have many of my own too, but I would be very surprised if Jack and Co. are playing the role of villian and the Monster was doing the right thing. It is going to be fun following the last couple of months of the show. I have a pretty solid prediction on how it will end.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

My favorite line: "Sorry you had to see me like that"

At first I wondered why Juliet had to die, especially after miraculously being rescued, but then saw the "V" commercial.

Any ideas as to why the healing waters weren't clear?

The mean Asian guy cut his hand with a knife to test the healing waters. I wonder why everybody on tv always cuts the palm of their hand to draw blood. That's a ***** to heal.

I wonder if the actual ending of this show will elicit as many angry howls as BSG's finale.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Cearbhaill said:


> I think John Lennon and Secret Asian Man [/url]


LOL. John and Yoko.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

astrohip said:


> I think a lot of people had this idea that this season was gonna be explanation after explanation. That all of our questions would be answered. And (as someone said above) they were in a "this is the finale" mode. So the backlash may be due to the fact we're still getting story--and more questions--not just answers.
> 
> The season just started, and they have a story to tell. My guess is we won't see substantial "winding down" (such as we get) until the very last few hours.





BitbyBlit said:


> He didn't say people shouldn't watch. He was merely stating that he didn't understand why people who didn't like this episode were fans of the show. In other words, what about the previous 5 seasons was different that made this episode stand out as being something worse?
> 
> There's nothing special about being the first episode of the last season that means they need to start answering all questions, and not introduce any more. If you combine all 6 seasons together, this is just one more episode in the story.
> 
> If by the end of the series nothing is resolved, then I could understand the complaints. But sometimes it is the very introduction of new questions that leads to the ultimate answers, so I don't see why it's such a big deal at this point.


Please. 
If some people had their way, all the questions would have been answered by Season 1, episode 13.
And we would have had four years of recorded organ music after that instead of what we have now.



whitson77 said:


> I'm going to say 95% chance that isn't the case. Jacob isn't the killer, where we know black shirt guy is and has killed people with very little reason to do so.
> 
> The pilot, Ecko, and numerous other people who were unarmed and not hostile. He didn't kill Locke when he had the chance though. Very interesting.


I suspect that was when he/it decided to use Locke to get to Jacob.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Replying to the page 2 stuff..



GDG76 said:


> That, the body missing, Desmond on the plane, and the fact that Hurley still won the lotto.. if the island was destroyed/underwater, how did Hurley find out about the numbers...
> 
> As usual with Lost, tons more questions than answers, but luckily they have to wrap it all up soon


According to the Lostpedia timeline, Hurley won the lottery in 2003, he heard the numbers before or up to 2000 (when Sam Toomey committed suicide), and Sam heard the numbers about 12 years before that (so that's around 1988). There's plenty of time after 1988 for the island to move to the bottom of the ocean. I do think it was nice though that they had Artz ask how he made his money, so we can know that he did still win the lottery.



Delta13 said:


> I believe Sayid and Nadya are together, as his look at the picture looked wistful not mournful.


He was on Oceanic 815 to fly to the US to see her (even prior to last night). Remember, the government gave him a chance to find out where she was (LA) and even gave him a ticket, in exchange for infultrating a terrorist group or something.



Delta13 said:


> Locke seems to have some kind of faith about him - did he really make the walkabout?


I thought that at first too, and even wondered if he was in a wheelchair.. When they revealed that he still WAS in a wheelchair, I believed that he was just *saying* he'd been on the walkabout (even as convincing as he'd sounded). Who in that circumstance would go around saying "yeah I flew to Australia to do this thing I wanted but they wouldn't let me", if they had Locke's confidence issues? If the bus couldn't handle the wheelchair before, it couldn't now - I don't think he did the walkabout.



latrobe7 said:


> I know that it's implied that MIB and Smokey are one-and-the-same ("Sorry you had to see me like that"), but there a couple of things about that scene I don't get. What's the significance of the beetle that Brahm picks up?


Was it a beetle? I thought it was a warped bullet, but I have only like 2% confidence in what I saw. Need to rewatch.



latrobe7 said:


> If he becomes the monster, why does the smoke come from the outside?


I took that as a form of habbit, like Superman flying out of the room before walking back in as Clark Kent.



latrobe7 said:


> I think the reason Richard said not to shoot Locke/MIB on the beach is because that would trigger Smokey to come and kill all of them.


I took that as "DON'T SHOOT HIM! IT'S AGAINST THE RULES! AND IF YOU DO, YOU'VE BROKEN THE RULES, SO HE'S ALLOWED TO KILL YOU, WHICH HE'S QUITE CAPABLE OF DOING!"



latrobe7 said:


> In the alternate timeline Sun and Jin are not the people they have grown to become during the course of the series - I don't like the old Jin & Sun!


I actually though that was pretty cool that they consistently showed them without the character arcs we've seen them experiencing. I took the money as a representation that Jin ALWAYS had money in the suitcase, but she just never knew about it because of the crash, and this recent discovery of the money at security was enough to push her currently-teetering-on-the-brink-of-leave-Jin-vs-stay-with-Jin state to leave-Jin, hence her keeping english secret at security.



JYoung said:


> Green Lantern/Flash: Faster Friends.
> 
> It's currently out of print but if you haunt some large comic stores, you might find a copy there.


I should have been more clear. I own the comic - I bought it seasons ago. I need to find it in my house somewhere. I'd read it back then, and I'm saying the story feels very similar.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not so sure. A) Richard is white, and 18-century slaves were almost always African (the whole point of slavery at that time was that black people weren't fully human) and a slave ship would have had entirely African "cargo," and B) he seems to be a hell of a lot older than the 18th century (he speaks Latin, and comes from a place with Egyptian statues).
> 
> I suspect he's been around a lot, lot longer than the Black Rock...
> 
> As for people being on the "new" Flight 816, I hope there's a mystical explanation for it. Because it's utterly insane to think that all those people (plus Desmond!) would still be on the same flight without Jacob's influence in their lives. He guided them all to the island the first time, and this time (supposedly!) he didn't.


1) You mean 815, of course, not 816 - I didn't miss something, right? (apologies if covered in later pages of the thread)

2) I can easily see a scene where they have him wanting to not mistreat slaves and someone telling him "then fine, you're a slave too"

3) Jacob made him that way, there's a slave ship on the ocean that smokey insinuates that Jacob brought to the island, and smokey says "you look different without the chains" or whatever he said. That to me is a clear indication that the writers want us to think Richard came from the black rock.

Unless... maybe the slave ship comes to the island to GET slaves, and captures Richard and puts him in chains...? Then he could have been there for a long, long time.

As for knowing Latin, hell, even the Dharma people had a blackboard teaching the kids about three different eras of hieroglyphics.. Learning Latin could be what they do in the temple.


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

gchance said:


> I don't remember, were you one of the people who thought the flashbacks were a waste of time as well? It's called storytelling.


I think plenty of the flashbacks were useful storytelling devices, while a minority were nothing but filler. Flashbacks are a lot different than just going on a new tangent for fun when there's so much else to be explained. Of course I'm sure they expect us to be so wowed by some magical convergence of these two flight 815 stories at the end and forget all the other stuff the show as foisted on us in the journey. Whatever happened, happened. Yeah, right.


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Any ideas as to why the healing waters weren't clear?


My thought on that is simply because Jacob's dead.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> 1) You mean 815, of course, not 816 - I didn't miss something, right? (apologies if covered in later pages of the thread)


My first thought is that 816 would be like saying LA X as an alternate timeline or whatever. 815 crashed on the island so we need a way to distinguish the alternative 815 that landed safely...but I probably overthought that and it could've just been a typo


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MickeS said:


> But what happened to Sayid's body then?


Jacob ate it.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

GDG76 said:


> I don't really understand how there can be any protective barrier... as was shown last night, smokey can just rain hell and fire from above by throwing crap into the circles...


Maybe it's a "rule" that he can't cross ash?


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

GDG76 said:


> I don't really understand how there can be any protective barrier... as was shown last night, smokey can just rain hell and fire from above by throwing crap into the circles...





jkeegan said:


> Maybe it's a "rule" that he can't cross ash?


maybe the ash is sacred, or blessed, or comes from a specific thing.
i was going to bring up the broken ash circle, as well.



Bierboy said:


> Actually, Sayid WAS dead...after drowning. You're gonna tell me a surgeon doesn't know when someone is dead?
> 
> And yes, from an earlier post, why was Juliette in the hatch wreckage when supposedly she had been at the bottom of the pit? See, these are among the MANY things that don't compute....even in the Lost world.





unicorngoddess said:


> As the bomb went off (or instead of the bomb going off?) you see a white flash. They were all sent forward in time to their present day. But their positions remained relatively the same. (Can't really explain why Kate was in a tree???) But since Juilette had fallen into the pit that the hatch was built over, that's where she was after they finished their leap through time.


i thought everyone was randomly scattered, and juliet happened to be there.


uncdrew said:


> I think Sayid is still dead.
> 
> Smokey came back as Locke and looked and sounded like him. Jacob is now back as Sayid.


smokey shapeshifted into locke. the chain of possession of sayid's body dictates that it's sayid. now can jacob possess bodies? i'd say no... what we do know is he can make hurley see him... did he make hurley see him as libby and charlie?

for the record, back when we were debating the plane at the bottom of the ocean... my theory was alternate timeline... i was right... in the wrong scenario


----------



## Necromancer2006 (Jan 26, 2008)

MickeS said:


> I wonder if Jacob took the form of Sayid, like he did with Locke when he died. Of course, I guess it all depends on how the timelines work here.


I don't think timelines mean anything to Jacob & MiB


----------



## Necromancer2006 (Jan 26, 2008)

JYoung said:


> Please.
> If some people had their way, all the questions would have been answered by Season 1, episode 13.
> And we would have had four years of recorded organ music after that instead of what we have now.
> 
> I suspect that was when he/it decided to use Locke to get to Jacob.


That's my theory as well - Locke wanted to believe and MiB was able to recognize he would be really easy to manipulate.


----------



## Necromancer2006 (Jan 26, 2008)

DancnDude said:


> My thought on that is simply because Jacob's dead.


Mine too. When Jacob died, the waters died with him.


----------



## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Cheezy death-kiss scene between Juliette-Sawyer. Who does that outside of soaps and Harlequin romance novels with Fabio on the cover. 

Any speculation that the water was dirty because Jacob was in it and now is in Sayid and because the water is now Jacob it can choose who to heal thus why Asian guy's hand didn't. It would also explain why Jacob said Sayid had to be saved. That would be an interesting development as Sayid/Locke already have a 'baddest man of the jungle' rivalry.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Very interesting that Richard was SO concerned about the Others NOT shooting fake Locke (because THAT was probably still against the rules).


I'm fairly certain that if they'd shot at Fake Locke, the same thing would have happened to them as happened to the guys inside the foot. Richard knew this, and that's why he shouted at them not to shoot him.


latrobe7 said:


> In the alternate timeline, if they flew over the now underwater Island; weren't they still off course?


I don't think that was meant to show us that it was literally right underneath their flight path. It was simply meant to show that in that new timeline, the Island is submerged. As stated in the Lindelof/Cuse interview:


Spoiler



Right out of the gate, in the first five minutes of the premiere, you get hit over the head with two things that youre not expecting. The first is that Desmond is on the plane. The second thing that we do is we drop out of the plane and we go below the water and we see that the Island is submerged. What were trying to do there is basically say to you, God bless the survivors of Oceanic 815, because theyre so self-centered, they thought the only effect [of detonating the bomb] was going to be that their plane never crashes. But they dont stop to think, If we do this in 1977, what else is going to affected by this? So that their entire lives can be changed radically. In fact, it would appear that theyve sunken the Island. Thats our way of saying, Keep your eyes peeled for the differences that youre not expecting.





cheesesteak said:


> Any ideas as to why the healing waters weren't clear?
> 
> The mean Asian guy cut his hand with a knife to test the healing waters. I wonder why everybody on tv always cuts the palm of their hand to draw blood. That's a ***** to heal.


In addition to the theory that the waters went dark because Jacob was dead, I wouldn't be at all surprised if at the beginning of the next episode, we find out that the water turned clear again as soon as Sayid was resurrected.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Is it next Tuesday yet???


----------



## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> The mean Asian guy cut his hand with a knife to test the healing waters. I wonder why everybody on tv always cuts the palm of their hand to draw blood. That's a ***** to heal.


Thank you. I have always wondered about that too.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

gchance said:


> ....It's not so much not being allowed as it is not threadcrapping. What did you think peoples' reaction would be?...


How in the hell is that thread crapping? This is a thread about the season premiere of Lost and all I said was I didn't like it......geeez...more nazis....


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Any ideas as to why the healing waters weren't clear?


I just thought they forgot to shock and chlorinate


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

ElJay said:


> The interview posted earlier in this thread seems to indicate the season is going to be split between the 815 doesn't crash timeline and the existing timeline we already knew. Given we've already invested five seasons worth of watching for the existing timeline, this literally half-assed reboot in the final season is not terribly inspiring.
> 
> I mean we can ooh and ahh about people on the plane that we haven't seen for a while, but this show already goes overboard on that stuff in place of a real plot moving forward. It seems really late in the show to be wasting more time. Is there a reason to care about comparing the different circumstances? Oooh, Oceanic 815 was a trijet, now it's only got two engines! Exciting!! Hugo is lucky now!!! That flight attendant is still hot!!!! The part of my brain that recognizes faces I've seen before is so excited that these actors could be hired again and be put on that plane!!!!!!
> 
> ...


I completely disagree with all of your points here. Aside from the minor and major differences in the "sideways" timeline (Jack gets one drink instead of two, Hurley's lucky, not cursed, etc.) I think it's a great way to compare how far our characters have gone in their growth arcs. This is, in a sense, return to season one so we can compare and contrast. I really like this circular storytelling. This is made even more explicit and the writers' purpose this year more obvious in the title of next week's episode, which I'm hiding for those who don't want to know:


Spoiler



"What Kate Does" (doesn't this remind anyone of an earlier Season 2 episode titled "What Kate *Did*"?


That said, we got some significant intel here. What's intriguing me so far in all of this is the role of the ash and Jacob's cabin. Who WAS in there? Obviously it was either Fake Locke / Smokey who couldn't escape OR Jacob himself was sealed in there, protected from Smokey. Since we've seen Smokey roam the island from Day One, one would make the logical conclusion that Jacob was inside. But I'm still not sure here.

Also, since the recap highlighted Charles Widmore VS. Ben prominently, this makes me eager to see a return to Widmore and find out what his actual role in all of this is.

One last thing: For those who are wondering about the location of the underwater island vis-a-vis the plane, it isn't completely implausible to consider that the plane still went off-course but was able to course correct since it didn't crash and everything was normal.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I want to take a moment to give kudos to the sound productive department, or whatever they're called.

Watching in DD 5 .1, that moment when Kate is up in the tree and can't hear was incredibly done. At first I thought that there was something wrong with my system -- that the middle speaker was out. But then I realized what I could hear and what I couldn't hear (and what Kate could and couldn't hear) and I was very impressed.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> I want to take a moment to give kudos to the sound productive department, or whatever they're called.
> 
> Watching in DD 5 .1, that moment when Kate is up in the tree and can't hear was incredibly done. At first I thought that there was something wrong with my system -- that the middle speaker was out. But then I realized what I could hear and what I couldn't hear (and what Kate could and couldn't hear) and I was very impressed.


Agreed. My wife immediately said, "It sounds like when you have earplugs in" and that continued until the sound started to come back. I had the distinct feeling that my ears had "popped" when the sound came back. It was incredibly well done.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> And yes, from an earlier post, why was Juliette in the hatch wreckage when supposedly she had been at the bottom of the pit? See, these are among the MANY things that don't compute....even in the Lost world.


I'm surprised no one caught this, even after it was quoted, but the pit that Juliette fell into was at the middle of the site where they were building the hatch. It makes sense that the stuff that was pulled underground during the incident would still have been there under the hatch after they built over top of it.


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

Dashel said:


> I took that statement metaphorically to mean that Jacob is dead, and therefore Richard is free/no longer his "slave".


+1


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

DancnDude said:


> My thought on that is simply because Jacob's dead.


+1


----------



## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

Since they seem to be living in alternate realities now, I wonder if Juliette will meet Sawyer in one of them? Before she says "It worked" she was talking about them going Dutch on a date. Maybe the realities for her collided.

Starring in V though, I guess she probably won't have a big part. 

I figured Jacob would be reborn in Sayid too, from the minute he told Hurley to take him there. We'll see if I'm right, you never know with Lost. We'll have a clash of good and evil but since they don't seem to be able to kill each other, they'll have to have the Losties do it.

I liked it, as always. I fear that people like Jeff, who examine every frame of this show, may never be happy with any ending the writers come up with though. I've heard them mention in many interviews that they had no idea the show would be scrutinized this obsessively and while I think they have a plan to wrap the show up satisfactorily to the masses - they can never tie up every single detail that some have interpreted as having meaning.


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

justapixel said:


> I figured Jacob would be reborn in Sayid too, from the minute he told Hurley to take him there. We'll see if I'm right, you never know with Lost. We'll have a clash of good and evil but since they don't seem to be able to kill each other, they'll have to have the Losties do it.


But did Jacob really know that MiB as Locke would be able to convince Ben to kill him at the time he gave Hurley the Ankh? The other factor that would lean toward the Sayid is now at least partly Jacob theory is the note telling the temple dwellers that they would be in deep doo doo if Sayid died.


----------



## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> How in the hell is that thread crapping? This is a thread about the season premiere of Lost and all I said was I didn't like it......geeez...more nazis....


You're a big fan of Godwin, aren't you?

Not to be confused with this Godwin:


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I want to take a moment to give kudos to the sound productive department, or whatever they're called.
> 
> Watching in DD 5 .1, that moment when Kate is up in the tree and can't hear was incredibly done. At first I thought that there was something wrong with my system -- that the middle speaker was out. But then I realized what I could hear and what I couldn't hear (and what Kate could and couldn't hear) and I was very impressed.


That was cool.

Production quality has always been top notch on Lost.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

pcguru83 said:


> You're a big fan of Godwin, aren't you?
> 
> Not to be confused with this Godwin:


Well played.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

hefe said:


> If it's 2007 in the island scenes.


It is 2007 because Jacob told Hurley he just died. And Jacob died in 2007.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> That said, we got some significant intel here. What's intriguing me so far in all of this is the role of the ash and Jacob's cabin. Who WAS in there? Obviously it was either Fake Locke / Smokey who couldn't escape OR Jacob himself was sealed in there, protected from Smokey. Since we've seen Smokey roam the island from Day One, one would make the logical conclusion that Jacob was inside. But I'm still not sure here.


Well, except for the fact Jacob was off the Island, interacting with the Losties at key moments.

What I did find interesting was that Jacob apparently can leave the Island while MIB/Fake Locke says he wants to go home, which implies he _can't_.


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

Bryanmc said:


> What if Black Shirt is the good guy and Jacob is the bad guy?


Well ... he is Lucifer on Supernatural


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

jkeegan said:


> Replying to the page 2 stuff..
> I took that as "DON'T SHOOT HIM! IT'S AGAINST THE RULES! AND IF YOU DO, YOU'VE BROKEN THE RULES, SO HE'S ALLOWED TO KILL YOU, WHICH HE'S QUITE CAPABLE OF DOING!"


When Smokey killed the pilot in season one, was he attacked first? How about Eko? What rules did those two break?

Re: Richard Alpert. If he was in chains and we want to tie him to myth, perhaps he is Prometheus?


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> It is 2007 because Jacob told Hurley he just died. And Jacob died in 2007.


Also when they set of the flares at the temple, Richard and the gang saw them from the foot statue.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

justapixel said:


> Since they seem to be living in alternate realities now, I wonder if Juliette will meet Sawyer in one of them? Before she says "It worked" she was talking about them going Dutch on a date. Maybe the realities for her collided.


I like this theory a lot.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Well, except for the fact Jacob was off the Island, interacting with the Losties at key moments.
> 
> What I did find interesting was that Jacob apparently can leave the Island while MIB/Fake Locke says he wants to go home, which implies he _can't_.


That's right. So who IS / WAS in there?

Why are people thinking that Sayid is possessed by Jacob? I don't think this is the case.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Trying to reply to this ever-changing thread is frustrating because as I read posts I want to comment, but later the issue has been beaten to death and the thread just keeps on getting longer.

So I've cut out a lot of what I wanted to say, and forget the rest. I'm tempted to just post as I think, and risk smeeking. But I haven't. 



unicorngoddess said:


> As the bomb went off (or instead of the bomb going off?) you see a white flash.<edit> But since _Juliet_ had fallen into the pit that the hatch was built over, that's where she was after they finished their leap through time.


When Desmond turned the Failsafe key and triggered the flash, we found him blown away from the Hatch and naked in the forest. What a missed opportunity for lovely Juliet.



BitbyBlit said:


> He had to pretend he was Locke who didn't know where Jacob was. Pretending to be Locke played a part in manipulating Ben to kill Jacob, and also got Richard to the statue.





whitson77 said:


> The pilot, Ecko, and numerous other people who were unarmed and not hostile. He didn't kill Locke when he had the chance though. Very interesting.


When Smokey (BlackShirt) confronted Locke in Season 1, Locke was spared because Smokey needed Locke to play an integral part in the "loophole".



Dashel said:


> I took that statement metaphorically to mean that Jacob is dead, and therefore Richard is free/no longer his "slave".


Moi aussi.



uncdrew said:


> I think Sayid is still dead.
> 
> Smokey came back as Locke and looked and sounded like him. Jacob is now back as Sayid.


Agreed.



cheesesteak said:


> Any ideas as to why the healing waters weren't clear?


Sewer backed up?  



tewcewl said:


> What's intriguing me so far in all of this is the role of the ash and Jacob's cabin. Who WAS in there?


It had to be BlackShirt in "Jacob's cabin". Ben admitted to the charade of pretending to speak with Jacob, when Locke actually HEARD the spectre plead "Help Me". So it must have been a captive BlackShirt dude who was in the chair looking like Christian Shephard. And, of course, Ben had no clue as to the existence of anyone other than Jacob.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm glad we have a consistent name for fake Locke, but where did MiB come from? I missed something.

I wonder if Christian was really Jacob, or really spoke for Jacob, or was he MiB all along, working on his plan to get Locke to help him kill Jacob. What about Echo's brother? It seems like Smokey can impersonate anyone who is dead without having the body. But he's alive. Can Jacob do that now that he's "dead"? Could he before? Maybe he just didn't cause it's not the sort of thing the good guy does. 

I really have trouble thinking of Jacob and MIB as living beings who can die. I'm not sure what they are, but it seems wrong to be able to kill them. So how would you kill MIB? Catch him in human form, or is that just part of him?

I totally think Sawyer overreacted in his blaming of Jack. They pretty much all agreed to try it, especially Juliet. If Sawyer was that sure it was a mistake, he should have stopped him. Do we see him turning evil now over this, when he was just going so far in the other direction? 


I wonder why Desmond was traveling from Austrailia to LA? His race would have been over years before, right? Assuming he was on the plane.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I'm glad we have a consistent name for fake Locke, but where did MiB come from? I missed something.


MiB = Man in Black.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Necromancer2006 said:


> Mine too. When Jacob died, the waters died with him.


But the waters worked...


----------



## UTV2TiVo (Feb 2, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> But the waters worked...


Did they?...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Well, except for the fact Jacob was off the Island, interacting with the Losties at key moments.
> 
> What I did find interesting was that Jacob apparently can leave the Island while MIB/Fake Locke says he wants to go home, which implies he _can't_.


Seeing that MIB is a smoke monster shape-shifter, I don't think his home is 2007 Bakersfield, CA.

I think his home is in the future or not on Earth. I think MIB can travel off the island quite easily, and probably has. Are there any other characters that don't seem right? Libby? Some of Hurley's funny farm friends?

MIB might have been influencing people off the island this whole time and we don't know it yet. Perhaps he interacts with Widmore. *shrug*


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Any ideas as to why the healing waters weren't clear?


Looked like somebody took a dump in their temple jacuzzi.



cheesesteak said:


> The mean Asian guy cut his hand with a knife to test the healing waters. I wonder why everybody on tv always cuts the palm of their hand to draw blood. That's a ***** to heal.


It's easier to hold the blood cartridge in a closed hand.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

UTV2TiVo said:


> Did they?...


Actually, I think not. I think what we see as Sayid is Jacob. Of course I could be wrong, but that's what I think.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

So is Hiroyuki (Dogen) related to Dr. Chang?


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> So is Hiroyuki (Dogen) related to Dr. Chang?


Isn't one Japanese and one Korean?


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Seeing that MIB is a smoke monster shape-shifter, I don't think his home is 2007 Bakersfield, CA.
> 
> I think his home is in the future or not on Earth. I think MIB can travel off the island quite easily, and probably has. Are there any other characters that don't seem right? Libby? Some of Hurley's funny farm friends?
> 
> MIB might have been influencing people off the island this whole time and we don't know it yet. Perhaps he interacts with Widmore. *shrug*


I was wondering if his home was simply the temple.


----------



## mrpope (Jan 13, 2006)

I thought the waters were unclear was an indication of Jacob's Death.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

justapixel said:


> Since they seem to be living in alternate realities now, I wonder if Juliette will meet Sawyer in one of them? Before she says "It worked" she was talking about them going Dutch on a date. Maybe the realities for her collided.


That was exactly what I was thinking as I typed her dialogue last night, but of course totally forgot to type it.  I think that line is our first hint of how the timelines are going to interact (I'm sure there will be more as well).

And I'm with getreal, this always happens with the Lost threads, the posts come in so fast and furious it's hard to take part.

Greg


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

After Sayid died, Miles looked like he was going to say something, and then changed his mind. I wonder if Miles knew that Sayid never really died, or if Sayid was telling him something.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MickeS said:


> I was wondering if his home was simply the temple.


That works too.

Why wasn't the temple permanently surrounded in ash?


----------



## tgmii (Feb 21, 2002)

Was it just me, or was John's explanation to Boone of odds of surviving a water landing with a "Good captain" a nod to Captain Sully?


----------



## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I want to take a moment to give kudos to the sound productive department, or whatever they're called.
> 
> Watching in DD 5 .1, that moment when Kate is up in the tree and can't hear was incredibly done. At first I thought that there was something wrong with my system -- that the middle speaker was out. But then I realized what I could hear and what I couldn't hear (and what Kate could and couldn't hear) and I was very impressed.


Kudos from me as well. I love having the audio in DD 5.1. The muffled diffuse quality was eerie. After a few seconds I realized it was because of the explosion and subsequent hearing loss.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

orangeboy said:


> Wasn't Sayid's first words after being resurrected Locke's last thoughts when dying? I'm sure that would be puzzling to Miles, too...


Awesome! That's it! There's my vote!



betts4 said:


> The smoke monster thing bothered me because we saw it scare Eko with the faces of his past but Locke embraced it. Okay, well, we understand about Locke and his embracing it because he loves the island. But why did it/he kill the pilot in season one and chase others throughout the rest of the seasons. I am feeling let down by the explanation that it is actually MiB. It is the one aspect so far that I just am unhappy with.


I don't think Locke saw the smoke monster. Locke described what he saw to Mr. Eko, and Eko replied something like "that was NOT what I saw...". I think Locke described it as the most beautiful thing he had ever seen, and I had the impression it was a white light or something, but I might have imagined the white light part. Now, the smoke monster DID try to grab Locke's leg and pull him into the ground (and Locke was strangely fine with that), but I don't believe that's what he saw.

I also don't think the smoke monster was trying to scare Eko with things from his past, but rather we were seeing scenes from his past because the camera went through the smoke monster.. In other words, I took it as the writers were trying to convey that the smoke monster was reading Eko's thoughts/past/history/etc from his mind, not showing him anything.



whitson77 said:


> I'm going to say 95% chance that isn't the case. Jacob isn't the killer, where we know black shirt guy is and has killed people with very little reason to do so.
> 
> The pilot, Ecko, and numerous other people who were unarmed and not hostile. He didn't kill Locke when he had the chance though. Very interesting.


Again, I don't think that when Locke looked up at something beautiful (the heart of this island) that he was looking at the smoke monster. Smokey did kill people, but with the exception of the pilot (and who knows what the pilot was like), didn't they all deserve it? Eko had killed many people. From smokey's point of view, people are bad - they come in, fight, leave a wake of destruction, etc.

I'm not weighing in on which is good/bad yet, just saying that a) I don't think Locke saw smokey that time, and b) from smokey's point of view, everyone he killed deserved it (except maybe Jacob?)

Of course, maybe smokey IS the island, and the smoke part (and the people it can form) are like it's head.. and that's why he's so conservative about outsiders - they're invading HIM.



Alfer said:


> No idea if this has been brought up but...
> 
> Do we know who's flying the flight 815 in alternate world?
> 
> Is it the pilot on the island and if so maybe he knew how to steer clear of the island some how but still close enough to feel a bit of the effects of the islands magnetic wave...


The pilot is the same in alternate 815 as the original 815 - Matt Parkman from Heroes (or the friend from Alias).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> I'm surprised no one caught this, even after it was quoted, but the pit that Juliette fell into was at the middle of the site where they were building the hatch. It makes sense that the stuff that was pulled underground during the incident would still have been there under the hatch after they built over top of it.


You really think that a competent building crew would simply leave all that crap in the hole and just build over it? I think the fact that they showed us heavy steel beams and the exercise bike were meant to clear up any speculation that she was still under the same pile of rubble that was pulled into the hole by the electromagnetic energy.


jkeegan said:


> The pilot is the same in alternate 815 as the original 815 - Matt Parkman from Heroes (or the friend from Alias).


Otherwise know as Greg Grunberg.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except Jacob was killed in the present, so any divergence would be in the future.


...unless Jacob ever skipped or traveled through time..


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Dashel said:


> John Hawkes. I recognized him as the motel clerk in the movie Identity and as a writer in a Scully-centric episode of The X-Files.


For me, apparently it's 24, The Perfect Storm, and The Practice (thank you imdb.com)


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I want to take a moment to give kudos to the sound productive department, or whatever they're called.
> 
> Watching in DD 5 .1, that moment when Kate is up in the tree and can't hear was incredibly done. At first I thought that there was something wrong with my system -- that the middle speaker was out. But then I realized what I could hear and what I couldn't hear (and what Kate could and couldn't hear) and I was very impressed.


I agree, and I made a similar comment to my wife at that point. Excellent.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

justapixel said:


> Since they seem to be living in alternate realities now, I wonder if Juliette will meet Sawyer in one of them? Before she says "It worked" she was talking about them going Dutch on a date. Maybe the realities for her collided.
> 
> Starring in V though, I guess she probably won't have a big part.
> 
> ...


I think season 5 made me happy.. Don't get me wrong, there's room for them to make it go wrong if they tried, but I've seen enough answered that I could be happy (certainly compared to Alias, for instance).

Of course, there's stuff I'd LIKE for them to tie in - like the picture frame and pictures changing with Miles and the dustbuster. I think that might actually tie in nicely with what they've started this season. So my hopes are actually set pretty high - but at least during this past episode, I said to my wife "just the plane part could have been the finale". Do I want more? Hell yeah. But I doubt I'll be disappointed.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> When Smokey killed the pilot in season one, was he attacked first? How about Eko? What rules did those two break?


When it comes to the pilot, that's where I'm going to blasphemously claim that my gut tells me they hadn't figured out enough of the story of the monster *while writing/filming the pilot* to make sure the monster only went after people who were either bad somehow or had broken some rule.

Of course, they can always address this by having some scene where we realize that the pilot was a horrible person, or was trying to get to the island deliberately or something (breaking a rule?). But that's my guess - they just hadn't planned that part yet. I'll be ecstatic to be shown wrong on that one! Even a nice retcon would fix that.

Eko had killed a whole bunch of people prior to coming to the island. He also refused to apologize to smokey-in-the-shape-of-his-brother, and said he regretted nothing.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

tewcewl said:


> That's right. So who IS / WAS in there?
> 
> Why are people thinking that Sayid is possessed by Jacob? I don't think this is the case.


One reason I'd find that believable is because Jacob was staring rather intently at Sayid, almost ignoring Hurley. It was like deciding whether he wanted to really be in that body from now on or not.

I wouldn't be surprised if we someday see a guy in some far past that looks like Jacob but was the guy that Jacob took his look from, and Jacob is similar to smokey (but white).

It's gotta rap up with those backgammon pieces..


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

A couple thoughts: MiB is prohibited from killing Jacob's agents, unless provoked. Anyone else (pilot, Eko) are fair game.

I think where this is leading is the two realities will have to be merged, and which reality wins will be up to the Losties. Some, like Locke, are better off never having been on the island. (I think Jack will cure Locke.) Others, like Sawyer, might opt for the island, since that is where he met Juliet (and Kate.) It will turn into a philosophical morality debate: who lives, who dies?


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

Last night on Kimmel, when asked if Jacob might be inhabiting the body of Sayid, Lindelof said, "Wow, interesting. I think *something* is inhabiting the body of Sayid."

So, if not Jacob, then maybe....Juliet? Locke? Nikki and Paolo? 

I also think that I have a good idea where this show is heading. I think Hurley will end up saving the human race...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

By the way, I kept wondering how the ash was broken around the cabin since Ben and Locke carefully stepped over it. Now I think I'd just forgotten. Wasn't it Hurley? I remember him backing away in a panic.

Doesn't make much sense though, because if it was smokey trapped inside - he was already free back when Danielle's team arrived, and when 815 crashed (pilot). If it was Jacob hiding inside, then..

.. hmm.. When Locke Ben and Hurley went to the cabin (before Ben/Hurley shared an Apollo bar), did they show the ash at all? If not, maybe it was now NOT intact, smokey went in, pretended to be Christian, told Locke to move the island, and set his loophole in motion? Eh, I dunno.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> That works too.
> 
> Why wasn't the temple permanently surrounded in ash?


Gooood question.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Whew! Caught up! We'll see how long that lasts.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I have to admit that I never thought of the alternate universe angle when trying to figure out what would happen this season for the last 8 months. I imagined both possibilities and where they would go, but never this, although I've seen it often enough in other shows and books. Did you all see this coming? Be honest now. 

Answers are nice. It's cool to get mysteries solved. But questions are even more fun. You can't speculate when the answer is given. I hope there's lots of questions not answered until the last ep. I loved this beginning. :up:


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> By the way, I kept wondering how the ash was broken around the cabin since Ben and Locke carefully stepped over it. Now I think I'd just forgotten. Wasn't it Hurley? I remember him backing away in a panic.
> 
> Doesn't make much sense though, because if it was smokey trapped inside - he was already free back when Danielle's team arrived, and when 815 crashed (pilot). If it was Jacob hiding inside, then..
> 
> .. hmm.. When Locke Ben and Hurley went to the cabin (before Ben/Hurley shared an Apollo bar), did they show the ash at all? If not, maybe it was now NOT intact, smokey went in, pretended to be Christian, told Locke to move the island, and set his loophole in motion? Eh, I dunno.


looking at lostpedia:

locke's first visit: with ben, there was ash, they stepped over, and that's when locke heard a voice say "help me", things flew around, and we saw a sihlouette of someone.

then hurley ran into the cabin, in a different place, no ash, saw a guy christian shephard in the chair through the window, and then the eye popped into his view scaring him.. he ran off and the cabin was shifting in space.. then disappeared

locke's second visit: couldn't find the cabin, but the ash circle was there

locke's third visit: no ash, that's when he talked with christian and claire. and christian (speaking on behalf of jacob) told him to move the island.

then the ilana scene with the ash circle broken.

i gotta think anything on the island that appeared to the losties was smokey.. christian, walt to shannon, horse to kate... all things that shouldn't have been there and walking around... ben's daughter to ben, eko's brother to eko...

jacob was living there, somehow the cabin started moving around, allowed smokey to get in and do his thing.

i am perplexed as to how claire fits into all of this, and if she's even alive...


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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

In the LA X universe, Is there a Penny? Her father, Charles Widmore, was a leader of the Others in 1977 (and until Ben grew up and forced him off the island). He was also on the island until at least a day or so before the island sunk. So he could easily have been killed. And Penny, if she were born at that time, could have easily been killed as well. I hope not. 

Daniel Faraday may have also died (in utero) with the island. Hopefully, Charlotte was evacuated in time.

It was just so gratifying, last season, when Desmond and Penny reunited, then Ben failed in his attempt to kill Penny. I thought Desmond and Penny were gonna get their happily ever after. Then they throw this alternate timeline at us, and now I have a second set of Desmonds and Pennys to worry about.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

My brother watches and we were talking tonight. He said "Apocalypse Now" And I had no idea what he meant (never saw it), He emailed me this link and said that Locke's scene was an obvious homage to the scene with Colonel Kurtz in his compound:






Bald man delivering a creepy monologue, leaning forward into the light for dramatic effect, then thoughtfully withdrawing into the shadows.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> When it comes to the pilot, that's where I'm going to blasphemously claim that my gut tells me they hadn't figured out enough of the story of the monster *while writing/filming the pilot* to make sure the monster only went after people who were either bad somehow or had broken some rule.


Might even been easier than that. If MiB doesn't want outsiders, the pilot was killed because he just delivered a whole mess of outsiders to the island (even if it wasn't Sean's fault).


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Alpinemaps said:


> Might even been easier than that. If MiB doesn't want outsiders, the pilot was killed because he just delivered a whole mess of outsiders to the island (even if it wasn't Sean's fault).


Yes, quoting myself.

Spoilers about the show I linked to above:


Spoiler



I remember my wife and I not quite getting the end of Felicity. Anyone remember how it ended? There was time travel or something involved. Since these are both JJ shows, I wonder if there's any relation?


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

You guys are crazy. No way I'm going to be able to keep up with this thread.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MonsterJoe said:


> You guys are crazy. No way I'm going to be able to keep up with this thread.


Welcome to TiVoCommunity Lost threads!


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> You guys are crazy. No way I'm going to be able to keep up with this thread.


I think you're ok for now. Once the surge of posts happened, now it's slowed. I think. 

Greg


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I clicked over to Now Playing, and the thread looked like the wall from the Heroes episode...and it's barely 24 hours old.


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

I was amazed I got the comment I wanted to make about Juliette in. I typically come to this thread the next day after watching to find 1000 posts already.

You guys are slacking.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

T-Wolves said:


> Last night on Kimmel, when asked if Jacob might be inhabiting the body of Sayid, Lindelof said, "Wow, interesting. I think *something* is inhabiting the body of Sayid."
> 
> So, if not Jacob, then maybe....Juliet? Locke? Nikki and Paolo?


I just rewatched that interview of them with Kimmel. There was some interesting stuff going on. Kimmel asked questions and told them to answer if it was a 'coincidence' or 'on purpose'. It is worth watching if you can find it somewhere online.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Maybe it's a "rule" that he can't cross ash?


Smokey can only kick ash. Oh, and take names. 



justapixel said:


> Since they seem to be living in alternate realities now, I wonder if Juliette will meet Sawyer in one of them? Before she says "It worked" she was talking about them going Dutch on a date. Maybe the realities for her collided.
> 
> Starring in V though, I guess she probably won't have a big part.
> 
> I figured Jacob would be reborn in Sayid too, from the minute he told Hurley to take him there. We'll see if I'm right, you never know with Lost. We'll have a clash of good and evil but since they don't seem to be able to kill each other, they'll have to have the Losties do it.


Damn! I was going to post the exact same theory for Juliet but plowed through the rest of the thread first - excellent thinking ma'am, even if I do say so myself. We will see Sawyer meet Juliet in the LA X alternate timeline for uh, coffee. Interesting thought: that would seem to imply that both timelines exist, not that only one of them can exist.

As to Jacob inhabiting Sayid, frankly I'm not a fan but I see the possibility. But if MIB could inhabit anyone he wants, duplicate anything he wants, seemingly anywhere, doesn't it seem a bit arbitrary for Jacob to only be able to do so at the Temple? After a live (or barely live) person is drowned in the temple pool? I know, it's Lost but still. (Sayid didn't spit up any water of any color when he awoke, which would be a bit unusual for a drowning. I don't if that means a thing though.)

A more interesting issue that I haven't seen anyone mention is the note in the ankh. First, that Yoko knew to break it open and look there was pretty wild - whoa! - and second, that Jacob correctly knew Sayid's condition before anyone left to go back to the island in the first place. Predestination? Hmm. And it seemed the letter had the names of the Losties on it too, but not Miles and Sawyer.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> Wasn't Sayid's first words after being resurrected Locke's last thoughts when dying? I'm sure that would be puzzling to Miles, too...


No, Locke's last thought was "I don't understand." (how sad was that, by the way?) Sayid's first words were "What happened?"


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## DrZoidberg42 (Oct 6, 2005)

Delta13 said:


> Lots did. Hurley is lucky and happy, and seems to have some serious business acumen. *I believe Sayid and Nadya are together, as his look at the picture looked wistful not mournful. * Boone doesn't have his sister with him. Christian misses the flight, and Desmond somehow makes it. Charlie wants to die. Jin has a ton of money with him.
> 
> So, did Rose not get cancer then? Jack is drinking but seemingly in sorrow. He was very calm and cool while saving Charlie, shall we say, professional. Sawyer's still the con guy but seems quite spry, not the guy who just killed the wrong "Sawyer" in Australia. We can't tell Claire's family condition. Locke seems to have some kind of faith about him - did he really make the walkabout?
> 
> And Arzt is in one piece. Oh wait, that was true ... on the plane anyway.


I may be wrong but wasn't Sayid flying to LA to find Nadya and she didn't die until he returned from the island. This is why he looked wistful not mournful.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

MickeS said:


> No, Locke's last thought was "I don't understand." (how sad was that, by the way?) Sayid's first words were "What happened?"


[expletive deleted]! I thought I had something there... 
Thanks for the clarification.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Interesting how these Others in the Temple instantly knew what to do when they heard that Jacob had died and how to protect themselves with ash against Smokey. However, Ben, who had been leader of the Others for years and years, knew nothing about Jacob or Smokey.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Interesting how these Others in the Temple instantly knew what to do when they heard that Jacob had died and how to protect themselves with ash against Smokey. However, Ben, who had been leader of the Others for years and years, knew nothing about Jacob or Smokey.


I don't think he know what was AT the temple.

I was thinking of this and it seem now that Ben was more figurehead of a leader because Jacob saw no need to change the status quo for awhile. Once things started changing with new people on the island, the hatch being blown, Faraday showing up and other things starting to snowball, then Ben was pushed aside.

No, maybe not figurehead. A leader until he failed some test? He did a lot of things Jacob asked but just wasn't told all the things that others knew.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Tiny continuity goodness from the writers: when the white flash happened, Hurley had no idea what happened. Jin did, and said he thought they went through time. Hurley was confused by that and Jin explained that he'd been through that before.

During my first watch I missed that yeah, Hurley hasn't been through any white flashes except the 316 plane.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm not sure Ben ever really _was _the leader. He seized power and arranged for his predecessor to be exiled, but perhaps he only ever _thought _he was the leader, and for whatever reason it suited Jacob (and Richard) to let him believe it.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure Ben ever really _was _the leader. He seized power and arranged for his predecessor to be exiled, but perhaps he only ever _thought _he was the leader, and for whatever reason it suited Jacob (and Richard) to let him believe it.


That is how it seems to me. Quite a 180 for Ben these last few episodes.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Gooood question.


Because rain will wash it away?

All I know is that once this season is over this will be an awesome show to rewatch from the beginning knowing how things turn out.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> Wasn't Sayid's first words after being resurrected Locke's last thoughts when dying? I'm sure that would be puzzling to Miles, too...


Sayid's first words were "What happened". Locke's dying _thought_ was "I don't understand."


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

orangeboy said:


> [expletive deleted]! I thought I had something there...
> Thanks for the clarification.


Damn. I based my instant agreement on the claim that it was the same line, which would have likely been an indication from the writers. Actually, good, because it makes more sense if Jacob becomes Sayid (or Sayid becomes the next spiritual leader, or however that works). They'd said before that Richard was like the Panchen Lama, needing to find the next leader. Maybe it wasn't clear which position Richard was looking to fill though? Ehh..


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Something completely unconnected to the paths people are taking, and I don't necessarily believe this theory. I was thinking about Smokey, and how he looked, so I did a little poking around.

Here's Smokey & Eko









Here's Smokey as seen in LA X (click for larger view)


Is it possible that Jacob and his nemesis are _two separate smoke monsters_? I realize the light inside the foot is different and darker, but wouldn't that result in a darker Smokey, not lighter? In LA X Smokey looked more like regular smoke, not black smoke.

I'm interested to hear what you guys think of it.

Greg


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## Necromancer2006 (Jan 26, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> When Smokey killed the pilot in season one, was he attacked first? How about Eko? What rules did those two break?


They may not have been "Protectors" as the others were. They were inconsequential to the agreement and therefore able to be killed at whim


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So, I was thinking back to when Christian showed Sun the picture of the Dharma recruits. She'd wanted to be reunited with Jin, and Christian told her that he was sorry, but she still had a long journey ahead of her.

Does that mean she won't see Jin anytime soon? If that journey was walking to the foot statue then walking back to the Swan hatch, that's not that long of a journey.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

gchance said:


> Something completely unconnected to the paths people are taking, and I don't necessarily believe this theory. I was thinking about Smokey, and how he looked, so I did a little poking around.
> 
> Here's Smokey & Eko
> 
> ...


That's not a ridiculous assumption for the members of this thread, but it seems to be a case of really stretching to provide a theory. I submit that smokey was gray in the poor lighting for the benefit of us viewers, just like pitch blackness is always well lit with blue light during night scenes in movies.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> That's not a ridiculous assumption for the members of this thread, but it seems to be a case of really stretching to provide a theory. I submit that smokey was gray in the poor lighting for the benefit of us viewers, just like pitch blackness is always well lit with blue light during night scenes in movies.


Yeah I gotta agree with this one - they just wanted us to see it (although you never know - they could be placing this in there as something we'll dismiss now but could later look back and find as a hidden bit of consistency for some future reveal of Ben as a white smoke monster.. but I doubt it).


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Yeah I gotta agree with this one - they just wanted us to see it (although you never know - they could be placing this in there as something we'll dismiss now but could later look back and find as a hidden bit of consistency for some future reveal of Ben as a white smoke monster.. but I doubt it).


Indeed. I think the revelation that "fake Locke is actually the Smoke Monster" is entirely profound and discussion-worthy enough without trying to read even more subtleties into it than are actually there.


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## Necromancer2006 (Jan 26, 2008)

betts4 said:


> No, maybe not figurehead. A leader until he failed some test? He did a lot of things Jacob asked but just wasn't told all the things that others knew.


I actually think it was a test - and he needed to succeed. Jacob needed a "Judas" and Ben (because Jacob alienated him) would need to fill that role. There was no fight in Jacob - there was nothing, and even Ben was confused about that. Jacob willingly and with purpose walked towards his death. He told Ben that the choice was his and Jacob wanted Ben to make the choice to kill him.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Delta13 said:


> We will see Sawyer meet Juliet in the LA X alternate timeline for uh, coffee. Interesting thought: that would seem to imply that both timelines exist, not that only one of them can exist.


I think that is part of what we are being shown/told. These are not _alternate _realities; they are two realities, both of which exist.



Turtleboy said:


> Interesting how these Others in the Temple instantly knew what to do when they heard that Jacob had died and how to protect themselves with ash against Smokey. However, Ben, who had been leader of the Others for years and years, knew nothing about Jacob or Smokey.


That's one of the things that's been bothering me about the Temple and the new group of Others. They seem so... disconnected from the other Others. We're not seeing much personnel overlap, and I would have expected quite a bit. The Others we've previously been exposed to have been quite civilized; these are like barbarians (relatively speaking).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

astrohip said:


> I think that is part of what we are being shown/told. These are not _alternate _realities; they are two realities, both of which exist.


That's one thing that bugged me about Lindelof's remark...(and he should know better, being the geek that he is)...he doesn't know what "alternate realities" means. Alternate realities DO exist; that's what make them "realities." If there's this world and that world, then you have two alternate realities. Neither one is "the real one" and the other is "the alternate"; they are both realities, and both alternates (to each other).

So when you say "These are not _alternate _realities; they are two realities, both of which exist," you are contradicting yourself. You are saying "These are not X, they are X."


astrohip said:


> That's one of the things that's been bothering me about the Temple and the new group of Others. They seem so... disconnected from the other Others. We're not seeing much personnel overlap, and I would have expected quite a bit. The Others we've previously been exposed to have been quite civilized; these are like barbarians (relatively speaking).


These are the Others that would have existed in the present if the Event had never happened. These Others clearly never conquered the Dharma Initiative and moved into their village.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> These are the Others that would have existed in the present if the Event had never happened. These Others clearly never conquered the Dharma Initiative and moved into their village.


But the event must have happened because we see the blown out hatch. Unless you are postulating that there was ANOTHER reason the hatch was built which led to ANOTHER reason why the hatch was eventually blown up...hmm...

Also - Richard clearly recognized the flare that went up. This means that he is familiar with the Temple Others. So if the timeline had changed radically, his memory had changed as well. Right?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mostman said:


> Also - Richard clearly recognized the flare that went up. This means that he is familiar with the Temple Others. So if the timeline had changed radically, his memory had changed as well. Right?


Of course. He's part of the changed timeline. He's lived his entire life there.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course. He's part of the changed timeline. He's lived his entire life there.


Richard and the party at the beach; and the Others at the Temple (along with Jack and everyone from 1977) are in the same 2007 timeline we've seen all along. Nothing has changed in their timeline. Whatever happened, happened.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Late reading and posting on a time limited library PC.
Loved the way that master people manipulator, human chess player Ben is SO manipulated by ~Locke/~Jacob/MiBLocke or whomever into killing Jacob.

I agree that Sayid is now a Jacob sock puppet.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

When Sun (in LA X) said she didn't speak Englis, it's possible she was telling the truth. She certainly looked confused as to why Jin would be carrying that much money, and that confusion may have been responsible for her delay in answering the female agent.

So, have we seen any of the Temple Others (_other_ Others?) before? I can't really put my finger on it, but they reminded me more of the Widmore/Ellie-led Others than the Ben-led Others.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

So the smoke monster can't get into the temple, or something like that

but it lived UNDER it and just couldn't go up?

So there must be some sort of protection that was there, or due to Jacob.

Am I way off on this or right on the money?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Yeah, I don't get that either; if the smoke monster is supposed to be a security system for the Temple and/or lives under it, how are they going to keep him out?

I also don't get who was using the cabin and when - if the ash circle was to keep MIB in; how was Smokey roaming around the Island since the pilot; and that would also mean it was Jacob in the cabin when Ben took Locke there, or at least it _wasn't _MIB... unless the ash ring was already broken...?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

astrohip said:


> That's one of the things that's been bothering me about the Temple and the new group of Others. They seem so... disconnected from the other Others. We're not seeing much personnel overlap, and I would have expected quite a bit. The Others we've previously been exposed to have been quite civilized; these are like barbarians (relatively speaking).


In Season 1, we were led to believe that there were two distinct groups on the Island, the group led by Ben that we've come to know as The Others, and another group that is more primitive. When the Losties found the medical hatch, there were costumes in there, so we then believed that there was only one group, but they were disgusing themselves to appear as two groups.

However, it's possible that there always were two groups and they're loosely related but don't generally function together. A couple seasons ago, Richard sent some of his people to The Temple, so we know he's familiar with it and it didn't seem like he had reservations about sending them there. But it did seem like more of an emergency plan.

So all of this is to say that I think it's now clear that there were the civilized Others, led by Ben and Richard, that moved into Dharmaville and then there are the Other Others, who remained more primitive and lived in the Temple. Both of these groups live in fear of Smokey, as evidenced by the ash and sonic fence.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> When Sun (in LA X) said she didn't speak Englis, it's possible she was telling the truth. She certainly looked confused as to why Jin would be carrying that much money, and that confusion may have been responsible for her delay in answering the female agent.


That hadn't even occurred to me, but you might be right. Several other things about the backstories of each of the characters had changed in that timeline, so it's entirely possible that Sun never took English lessons and is still subservient to Jin and has no intentions of leaving him once they land in L.A. If she were, that would have been a perfect time to speak up and ask for amnesty/protection.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> That hadn't even occurred to me, but you might be right. Several other things about the backstories of each of the characters had changed in that timeline, so it's entirely possible that Sun never took English lessons and is still subservient to Jin and has no intentions of leaving him once they land in L.A. If she were, that would have been a perfect time to speak up and ask for amnesty/protection.


But wasn't the plan to leave him at the airport in Sydney...not LA? She was suppose to sneak out of the airport and meet a car there and take off but when the car pulled up she changed her mind and decided to stay with Jin because he told her after he did this one thing for her father things would be different.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I'm beginning to think that my theory that the Island is purgatory is not accurate.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Seriously though, there are two timelines. The first timeline, on the Island, has never been changed. It was the one that always happened, including the survivors going back in time and being part of the Dharma initiative, and then going forward in time to "present day." Nothing there changed because the bomb didn't go off.

It's only in the other timeline where the bomb did go off that there are changes, i.e. the island is on the bottom of the ocean.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

brermike said:


> 1. Desmond. I had the feeling he was "visiting" Jack in this universe. Like how he was flashing previously. It almost seemed as if he came from somewhere else and then returned.


This is one of the ideas that I've seen around the blogosphere that I like; Desmond was not really there on the flight, and probably only Jack could see him... Maybe he's doing the job of 'time-cop' that Hawking did with him.

Another idea I thought was interesting was that maybe there are two smoke monsters; one is MIB the other is Jacob; the Jacob monster would have been the one that Locke saw that he thought was beautiful and the MIB monster was the one that tried to drag him underground. But then wouldn't the Jacob monster be white smoke?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

orangeboy said:


> Wasn't Sayid's first words after being resurrected Locke's last thoughts when dying? I'm sure that would be puzzling to Miles, too...


I believe Locke's final thought was "I don't understand?!!" while Sayid's first words after resurrecting were: "What happened?"


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Also remember that at the end of Season 3, Ben ordered Richard to take a group of Others to "the Temple."


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> These are the Others that would have existed in the present if the Event had never happened. These Others clearly never conquered the Dharma Initiative and moved into their village.


 (Disclaimer - random nonsensical yet fun demonstrably-wrong stream of consciousness to follow, which I don't at all believe)

Maybe Ben is the forking point. Maybe when Sayid shot Ben, they never tried bringing him to the temple (but they were still all there for the group orientation photo). Ben dies, Sawyer never goes with Kate to bring him to the others, Phil never sees videotape of him going out there, Faraday comes back and asks how they can find the others - but no one knows. Radzinski digs into the construction site, hits the pocket, they build the hatch, and Radzinski ends up inside with Inman. Inman brings Desmond into the hatch. Years later there's no Ben to get caught by Daniele, the Losties never meet the others, no one turns the wheel, no one goes back in time. They still dig up the hatch, still stop entering the code, but there's no ostracized Widmore on the outside trying to get back with a freighter because Ben never kicked him off of the island. Penny might exist (she was fathered off-island before his ostrisation), so she could see the failsafe result and find the island, and still get O6 members off. The island could tell ..

ah, I give up.


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## Necromancer2006 (Jan 26, 2008)

Turtleboy said:


> I'm beginning to think that my theory that the Island is purgatory is not accurate.


I believe you should have thought that a long time ago since it was denied in 2005 by Abrams himself.


----------



## CardfaninKC (Apr 17, 2007)

In a previous season, we were led to believe that Ben "summoned" the Smoke Monster as an act of revenge after Alex was killed.

I'm having trouble reconciling that with what we saw happen in this episode.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> But wasn't the plan to leave him at the airport in Sydney...not LA? She was suppose to sneak out of the airport and meet a car there and take off but when the car pulled up she changed her mind and decided to stay with Jin because he told her after he did this one thing for her father things would be different.


Yeah, I guess you're right. OK, throw my theory out.


Necromancer2006 said:


> I believe you should have thought that a long time ago since it was denied in 2005 by Abrams himself.


Zoom!


----------



## latenight (May 5, 2005)

Here are my 2 cents for what its worth. 

While the MIB (new Locke) found a loophole and a way to kill Jacob, Jacob knew of the future and set out to have someone take his place as the "good" vs the MIB "evil". This is why Jacob went back to give Hurley the artifact which told Jacobs followers that they needed to save Sayid. With Sayid's resurrection Sayid will now take over Jacobs role on the island. To Jacob I think his own death was simply the "progress" that he first mentioned to the MIB. 

From the first time we saw Jacob and the MIB and they were looking at the ship approaching the MIB said you still trying to prove me wrong. MIB believes that any group that finds the island will come... fight... destroy..currupt and it always ends the same. Then Jacob said something interesting. It only needs to end once and then everything else is just progress. 

Its hard to argue that the Oceanic crash survivors didn't come, fight, destroy, currupt but who is to say that the experiment is over. Could what they do in the alternate timeline be used to prove Jacob was right and the MIB was wrong.

My guess is the series ends with Locke and Sayid looking at a boat approaching the island and locke telling Sayid, Do you know how much I want to kill you?


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

latrobe7 said:


> Yeah, I don't get that either; if the smoke monster is supposed to be a security system for the Temple and/or lives under it, how are they going to keep him out?


isn't the temple temple separate from that entrance/hole?
what we thought was the temple was more of an entranceway... we saw the temple... all brand new and stuff.



> I also don't get who was using the cabin and when - if the ash circle was to keep MIB in; how was Smokey roaming around the Island since the pilot; and that would also mean it was Jacob in the cabin when Ben took Locke there, or at least it _wasn't _MIB... unless the ash ring was already broken...?


i think it was to keep smokey out. 
it was jacob first, then smokey got in when the cabin was shifting... and that's when we see christian/smokey



DevdogAZ said:


> That hadn't even occurred to me, but you might be right. Several other things about the backstories of each of the characters had changed in that timeline, so it's entirely possible that Sun never took English lessons and is still subservient to Jin and has no intentions of leaving him once they land in L.A. If she were, that would have been a perfect time to speak up and ask for amnesty/protection.


so does "what happened, happened" not apply to the alternate timeline?


getreal said:


> I believe Locke's final thought was "I don't understand?!!" while Sayid's first words after resurrecting were: "What happened?"


i believe that's smeek #3; over/under is 6 1/2


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I think it would have been a funny throwaway to see Nikki and Paolo on the plane ...

My take on the smoke monster is that it can't kill anyone who was touched/protected by Jacob. The pilot and Eko would have been fair game.


----------



## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> You really think that a competent building crew would simply leave all that crap in the hole and just build over it? I think the fact that they showed us heavy steel beams and the exercise bike were meant to clear up any speculation that she was still under the same pile of rubble that was pulled into the hole by the electromagnetic energy.


Didn't the magnet effect happen when they stopped pushing the button in the hatch? I think that is the exercise bike Desmond was using in the beginning of season 2. I think all that junk was left over from the second incident.



unicorngoddess said:


> But wasn't the plan to leave him at the airport in Sydney...not LA? She was suppose to sneak out of the airport and meet a car there and take off but when the car pulled up she changed her mind and decided to stay with Jin because he told her after he did this one thing for her father things would be different.


Is this true? I don't remember and I was thinking that maybe it was reversed this time around and that was the escape money Jin was going to use to run from his father in law.

Last thought...could the timeline that we see where 815 never crashed be the aftermath of when they finally set everything right at the end of this season? What I mean is, instead of fixing their problem and setting things right midway through the season then following up with how life is for the survivors for the rest of the season they are doing it at the same time so they can end it with one big finale?


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

CardfaninKC said:


> In a previous season, we were led to believe that Ben "summoned" the Smoke Monster as an act of revenge after Alex was killed.
> 
> I'm having trouble reconciling that with what we saw happen in this episode.


From lostpedia-
"Ben has been shown to be able to summon the [smoke monster] to destroy threats to the Island, though he is unable to control it."

So Ben has summoned it twice-
1) To kill the mercenaries (which we just see him disappear in the hidden room of his house). (The Shape of Things to Come, S4, ep 9)
2) And to be judged by it (Dead is Dead, last season ep 12)... but this is when we actually see him pull that plug, right?

Now knowing 'who' the smoke monster is .. it's funny to think about that ep "Dead is Dead." Ben summons it but he and 'Locke' have to go find it underground along the temple walls. The ground gives away and Ben falls through the hole (the same hole Jack, Kate, N gang walk around?).. which is how he and 'Locke' get separated... and now 'Locke' can do his smoky thing.

Ben didn't really need to summoned it because he was with it all along


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Cindy1230 said:


> From lostpedia-
> "Ben has been shown to be able to summon the [smoke monster] to destroy threats to the Island, though he is unable to control it."
> 
> So we've seen him summoned it twice-
> ...


ha that is great, didn't even think about that!  

and yeah that was the same hole he fell through.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

MickeS said:


> No, Locke's last thought was "I don't understand." (how sad was that, by the way?) Sayid's first words were "What happened?"





wprager said:


> Sayid's first words were "What happened". Locke's dying _thought_ was "I don't understand."





getreal said:


> I believe Locke's final thought was "I don't understand?!!" while Sayid's first words after resurrecting were: "What happened?"





bruinfan said:


> i believe that's smeek #3; over/under is 6 1/2


Right you are! You know it's difficult to stay current with this thread. I said it before.



getreal said:


> Trying to reply to this ever-changing thread is frustrating because as I read posts I want to comment, but later the issue has been beaten to death and the thread just keeps on getting longer.
> 
> So I've cut out a lot of what I wanted to say, and forget the rest. I'm tempted to just post as I think, and risk smeeking.


No guarantees from here on in. 

I like the idea of white smokey vs. black smokey, but there haven't really been any examples of a white smoke monster.

Too bad they never pursued Walt's potential, as they had alluded to in the Lost Missing Pieces #6: "Room 23".


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

bruinfan said:


> so does "what happened, happened" not apply to the alternate timeline?


Obviously not. Shannon wasn't on the plane with Boone. Hurley was the luckiest guy in the world rather than cursed. Jack was a nervous flyer and was being comforted by Rose rather than Rose being the nervous flyer being comforted by Jack.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Obviously not. Shannon wasn't on the plane with Boone. Hurley was the luckiest guy in the world rather than cursed. Jack was a nervous flyer and was being comforted by Rose rather than Rose being the nervous flyer being comforted by Jack.


And Charlie went from being a turd to becoming an obnoxious turd.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Obviously not. Shannon wasn't on the plane with Boone. Hurley was the luckiest guy in the world rather than cursed. Jack was a nervous flyer and was being comforted by Rose rather than Rose being the nervous flyer being comforted by Jack.


And according to the Jimmy Kimmel interview.. Cindy gave Jack only 1 bottle of vodka instead of 2.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Cindy1230 said:


> And according to the Jimmy Kimmel interview.. Cindy gave Jack only 1 bottle of vodka instead of 2.


And instead of saying, This, of course, breaks some kind rules (or something like that, I can't remember the exact line) he just says, "It'll be our secret."

But, yeah, originally he drank one bottle and put the other one in his pocket for later. Later turned out to be when Kate was sewing him up.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> Interesting how these Others in the Temple instantly knew what to do when they heard that Jacob had died and how to protect themselves with ash against Smokey. However, Ben, who had been leader of the Others for years and years, knew nothing about Jacob or Smokey.


It seems to me that Ben knew Smokey pretty well, but never knew Jacob.



gchance said:


> Is it possible that Jacob and his nemesis are _two separate smoke monsters_? I realize the light inside the foot is different and darker, but wouldn't that result in a darker Smokey, not lighter? In LA X Smokey looked more like regular smoke, not black smoke.
> 
> I'm interested to hear what you guys think of it.
> 
> Greg


Maybe they are both aliens whose natural state is smoke monster, but they can also take other forms. 



Turtleboy said:


> It's only in the other timeline where the bomb did go off that there are changes, i.e. the island is on the bottom of the ocean.


Are we sure it was the bomb that put the island on the bottom? So what happened to Jacob and MiB then? Did they go somewhere else? Turn into fish? Jacob then had no reason to influence the Losties' lives?

The fork happened 1 second before the bomb went off. The losties time traveled, and the Dharma people dragged all the metal out of the hole, and continued digging? 

I think I remember Richard telling someone that some of the Others didn't like Ben's idea of living in Dharmaville. Maybe they are the ones who live at the temple fulltime.

I hate to think that Christian was MiB. He said he wasn't Jacob, but spoke for him. Maybe Jacob doesn't commandeer bodies but just wins them over as allies. Maybe Sayid will just "speak for him." And Sayid seems like a weird choice for new Jacob. You'd think they would have picked a more popular character. Hurley maybe.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

getreal said:


> I like the idea of white smokey vs. black smokey, but there haven't really been any examples of a white smoke monster.
> 
> Too bad they never pursued Walt's potential, as they had alluded to in the Lost Missing Pieces #6: "Room 23".


I know while we've never seen white smokey, I do think that there may be something to the ash being and effective barrier for *both* sides of the battle, the MiB and Jacob side, and I can see the ash around Jacob's cabin being to let him rest and prevent MiB smokey from bothering him. That being said, I also have to wonder if the ash could hold either of them INSIDE a location, as in them trapping Jacob in the cabin with it.

I think there's a lot of ground to cover this season.
Diane


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Are we sure it was the bomb that put the island on the bottom?


From EW interview, Lindelof said, 


Spoiler



Should you infer that the detonation of Jughead is what sunk the island? Who knows? But theres the Foot. What do you get when you see that shot? It looks like New Otherton got built. These little clues [might help you] extrapolate when the Island may have sunk.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> From EW interview, Lindelof said,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



Yeah,but both the foot and New Otherton were built when the bomb was set off, so that doesnt' really help us at all.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

> Originally Posted by getreal
> Too bad they never pursued Walt's potential, as they had alluded to in the Lost Missing Pieces #6: "Room 23".


I think that is a shame too. They built Walt up little by little and then ? he was sort of a wasted storyline.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

betts4 said:


> I think that is a shame too. They built Walt up little by little and then ? he was sort of a wasted storyline.


They just need James Cameron to make a CGI Walt!


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

Remember Jacob was at the Jin/Sun wedding. In the LA X timeline this probably did not happen. So, whatever Jacob did in the original timeline's wedding to nudge things to his advantage, did not happen (or happened with a different agenda for Jacob).

Jin and Sun's relationship could be completely different. Sun may not have had a reason to learn English and may not want to leave Jin. They may not even be married.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Another idea I thought was interesting was that maybe there are two smoke monsters; one is MIB the other is Jacob; the Jacob monster would have been the one that Locke saw that he thought was beautiful and the MIB monster was the one that tried to drag him underground. But then wouldn't the Jacob monster be white smoke?


Jacob could be white smoke I suppose; problem is, every time he appears that way a new leader gets elected.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Delta13 said:


> Jacob could be white smoke I suppose; problem is, every time he appears that way a new leader gets elected.


Wouldn't it be the other way around? He only turns up _after _a new leader has been elected?


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Oooh, good point. A papal debate, I knew this thread was missing something.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

So is Ben only infallible when he speaks _ex cathedra_?


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> From EW interview, Lindelof said,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





vertigo235 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah,but both the foot and New Otherton were built when the bomb was set off, so that doesnt' really help us at all.





Spoiler



The foot wasn't built the same time as New Otherton. It was built at least 150 years before, if not centuries before (we saw the statue in the beginning of the Season 5 finale). New Otherton was obviously built in the 60's or 70's sometime, by the Dharma initiative.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

And barely that, if at all. He strikes me more and more like an antipope, lots of claims but it turns out not really in charge. And following the wrong Big Guy, to boot. Perhaps we should name him Antipope Judas I.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Remember Jacob was at the Jin/Sun wedding. In the LA X timeline this probably did not happen. So, whatever Jacob did in the original timeline's wedding to nudge things to his advantage, did not happen (or happened with a different agenda for Jacob).
> 
> Jin and Sun's relationship could be completely different. Sun may not have had a reason to learn English and may not want to leave Jin. They may not even be married.


Speaking of which, someone pointed this out on another messageboard, but I didn't want to post it until I verified it for myself, but I just rewatched the Jin/Sun scene at the airport. Here's the dialogue as they're taking Jin away.



> Customs Agent: "Ann, take him to the waiting area."
> Ann: "*Ms. Paik*, do you understand any English? Because if you do, if this is just a misunderstanding? You should speak up now. Do you understand me?"
> Sun: "No. English."


The person pointed out that neither one was wearing a wedding ring. I couldn't see Jin's left hand, but Sun definitely wasn't wearing one.

Greg


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

bruinfan said:


> so does "what happened, happened" not apply to the alternate timeline





DevdogAZ said:


> Obviously not. Shannon wasn't on the plane with Boone. Hurley was the luckiest guy in the world rather than cursed. Jack was a nervous flyer and was being comforted by Rose rather than Rose being the nervous flyer being comforted by Jack.


I don't know Devdog. Why wouldn't the rule apply? The paths of time diverged after 1977, different choices were made, certain events never happened apparently, but there would seem to be no evidence that the alternate timeline, excuse me, the parallel universe, is not just as consistent as the current one is. The differences between the timelines is a result of choices of free will since '77 - which is why I believe it was referenced at the end of the 1 hour "pre-game" show.

But I know, these 11 dimensions of reality give me a headache ... maybe we could get Michio Kaku to pop in here for the next 16 episodes and really blow things up.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The foot wasn't built the same time as New Otherton. It was built at least 150 years before, if not centuries before (we saw the statue in the beginning of the Season 5 finale). New Otherton was obviously built in the 60's or 70's sometime, by the Dharma initiative.





Spoiler



Yeah, but how does that help us with knowing if setting the bomb off had anythign to do with the island sinking?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The foot wasn't built the same time as New Otherton. It was built at least 150 years before, if not centuries before (we saw the statue in the beginning of the Season 5 finale). New Otherton was obviously built in the 60's or 70's sometime, by the Dharma initiative.


But the point of this discussion is that the presence of the Foot and New Otherton at the bottom of the ocean does not provide any clue as to when the Island became submerged, because both of them existed prior to 1977. The quote from the Darlton seemed to indicate otherwise.


Delta13 said:


> I don't know Devdog. Why wouldn't the rule apply? The paths of time diverged after 1977, different choices were made, certain events never happened apparently, but there would seem to be no evidence that the alternate timeline, excuse me, the parallel universe, is not just as consistent as the current one is. The differences between the timelines is a result of choices of free will since '77 - which is why I believe it was referenced at the end of the 1 hour "pre-game" show.
> 
> But I know, these 11 dimensions of reality give me a headache ... maybe we could get Michio Kaku to pop in here for the next 16 episodes and really blow things up.


I'm not saying that the parallel universe isn't internally consistent. I'm sure that it is. I was interpreting the question from bruinfan as meaning that "what happened, happened" in the timeline we've spent five seasons watching should apply to the non-crash version of Flight 815. I don't think that it does.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> But the point of this discussion is that the presence of the Foot and New Otherton at the bottom of the ocean does not provide any clue as to when the Island became submerged, because both of them existed prior to 1977. The quote from the Darlton seemed to indicate otherwise.


Let's look at what we know.

1. Both New Otherton (Dharmaville, whatever) and the Foot existed at the time the Island submerged. Which would place the island sinking at least in the 70's. (Lostpedia puts construction of Dharmaville "sometime in the '70's")

2. The detonation pretty clearly is the point where the two timelines were created. So the island didn't sink before then. So the island sank post-detonation-1977. I suppose it could have sunk in 1983, or 1995, or some other time after 1977.

3. The underwater shot shows lots of deterioration and sea life growing on and around the structures. Like it's been below sea-level for awhile.

4. Ask yourself, what kind of force is required to sink an Island. The only other besides a powerful hydrogen bomb interacting with a pocket of energy powerful enough to move the island through time, perhaps would be a massive earthquake. I would think a massive earthquake would leave more damage to buildings and structures, which were still standing. This was as if a massive sinkhole suddenly appeared under the island and it just dropped to the bottom of the ocean. Like something exploded and tore the bottom of the island out from underneath it. Something like.. a hydrogen bomb exploding in a pocket of powerful time-moving energy.

And finally



Spoiler



5. The PRODUCER OF THE PROGRAM inferred pretty strongly it was the bomb detonation that made the island sink.



I just don't see debate here.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> 4. Ask yourself, what kind of force is required to sink an Island. The only other besides a powerful hydrogen bomb interacting with a pocket of energy powerful enough to move the island through time, perhaps would be a massive earthquake.


I suppose another theoretical possibility is that the island moved to a place with a much deeper sea floor...


----------



## voripteth (Apr 9, 2003)

Everyone realizes that it wasn't Jughead that went off but just the small primer charge, right? Blow up a building, sure! Blow up the island, not a chance.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

voripteth said:


> Everyone realizes that it wasn't Jughead that went off but just the small primer charge, right? Blow up a building, sure! Blow up the island, not a chance.


But it exploded at a massive pocket of energy, so the resultant explosion could very well have destroyed the island (or, I suppose, the world, since saving the world by preventing that energy from being released was what the whole button thing was about in the first place!).


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

voripteth said:


> Everyone realizes that it wasn't Jughead that went off but just the small primer charge, right? Blow up a building, sure! Blow up the island, not a chance.


The Losties referred to it as the core of the H bomb. If it were the core, it would not explode, it takes an A-bomb to generate the temperatures necessary for a fusion explosion in a bomb. And that thing was not even close to being big enough for that. It may, however, be big enough to house the explosive that triggers the A-Bomb, which triggers the H-Bomb.

If it were the core, tapping on it would not cause it to explode and if tapping it caused it to explode, it is a simple chemical explosive bomb.

I'm not sure what Sayid was thinking when he took it out and called it the core. So either he had a hidden agenda, Sayid is much more ignorant that we have been led to believe, or the writers made a major blunder. My vote is for the first alternative -- especially now that we know Sayid is a necessary piece of Jacob's plan.

And I don't believe that Sayid is now simply Jacob's meat puppet. If Jacob wanted to take over someone's body, he had plenty of choices. But he specifically said that Sayid had to be saved. And he had planned it that way for quite some time without known contingencies.


----------



## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

I'm annoyed that the producers are intentionally not revealing the name of MIB. There's no real reason for the characters not to say his name.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

thenightfly42 said:


> I'm annoyed that the producers are intentionally not revealing the name of MIB. There's no real reason for the characters not to say his name.


Well, if Anti-Jacob's name is Satan, that would KINDA give something away.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> The Losties referred to it as the core of the H bomb. If it were the core, it would not explode, it takes an A-bomb to generate the temperatures necessary for a fusion explosion in a bomb. And that thing was not even close to being big enough for that. It may, however, be big enough to house the explosive that triggers the A-Bomb, which triggers the H-Bomb.
> 
> If it were the core, tapping on it would not cause it to explode and if tapping it caused it to explode, it is a simple chemical explosive bomb.
> 
> ...


Well Sayid said he RIGGED it to explode on impact, so while I don't know the inner workings of a bomb, he said he reworked it.

Take that for what it's worth, but it does sound like he knew the "core" or whatever wouldn't explode without changing it


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

thenightfly42 said:


> I'm annoyed that the producers are intentionally not revealing the name of MIB. There's no real reason for the characters not to say his name.


Unless the producers have a reason not to reveal his name until later. We may not be privy yet.


----------



## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

TriBruin said:


> Unless the producers have a reason not to reveal his name until later. We may not be privy yet.


Might be something really mythical like Hank or Barnie.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Magister said:


> Might be something really mythical like Hank or Barnie.


Tim?


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Magister said:


> Might be something really mythical like Hank or Barnie.





jkeegan said:


> Tim?


Vincent?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Vincent?


Darlton.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suppose another theoretical possibility is that the island moved to a place with a much deeper sea floor...


Yep, that's a possibility too.


----------



## scoot95 (Mar 14, 2006)

TriBruin said:


> Unless the producers have a reason not to reveal his name until later. We may not be privy yet.


Based on what I read on other forums, is can be deduced that his name is Esau:

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p98.htm


----------



## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

Okay only on page 6 of 11, but got to start somewhere...



danplaysbass said:


> Does anybody else think Christian was on the plane but was transported off the plane mid-flight along with Desmond?


They said that it never got loaded. So they must have a record of it not being loaded on that plane, but then lost track of where it was so they don't know where it is at now.



cheesesteak said:


> Any ideas as to why the healing waters weren't clear?


Originally I was going to say just because Jacob is dead. Then others started filling in...



Ment said:


> Any speculation that the water was dirty because Jacob was in it and now is in Sayid and because the water is now Jacob it can choose who to heal thus why Asian guy's hand didn't. It would also explain why Jacob said Sayid had to be saved. That would be an interesting development as Sayid/Locke already have a 'baddest man of the jungle' rivalry.


Interesting idea.



Turtleboy said:


> I want to take a moment to give kudos to the sound productive department, or whatever they're called.
> 
> Watching in DD 5 .1, that moment when Kate is up in the tree and can't hear was incredibly done. At first I thought that there was something wrong with my system -- that the middle speaker was out. But then I realized what I could hear and what I couldn't hear (and what Kate could and couldn't hear) and I was very impressed.


I was watching via Hulu on my crappy system speakers and it sounded realistic of tinnitus, so I have to guess it was great on a better sounding system.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Maybe Aslan or Puzzle (Narnia Chronicle's)


----------



## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Tim?


Some people might call him that.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Charon2 said:


> Some people might call him that.


(politely quietly claps)


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

I was just thinking about this episode and I had a thought (which others have probably made before and I somehow missed). The explosion when Juliette set off the bomb looked remarkably similar to the "purple sky" that happened when Desmond turned the failsafe key several seasons back. Does that imply that the "failsafe" was, in fact, a nuclear detonation?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hapdrastic said:


> I was just thinking about this episode and I had a thought (which others have probably made before and I somehow missed). The explosion when Juliette set off the bomb looked remarkably similar to the "purple sky" that happened when Desmond turned the failsafe key several seasons back. Does that imply that the "failsafe" was, in fact, a nuclear detonation?


I think it's just that both Juliette's explosion and Desmond's key safely (relatively) released island energy. They both were designed to have a controlled release of the energy before it built to the point where it would cause greater damage.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

bruinfan said:


> isn't the temple temple separate from that entrance/hole?
> what we thought was the temple was more of an entranceway... we saw the temple... all brand new and stuff.
> 
> i think it was to keep smokey out.
> ...


Actually, the first reply was not a smeek, so it's only two smeeks.

I hope this answer is not a smeek itself.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> Let's look at what we know.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I was merely pointing out that when Darlton said that we can make some inferences about the submerged Island because the Foot and New Otherton are on the bottom of the ocean, that's not necessarily the case. All that can be inferred from those things being there is that the Island sunk sometime after New Otherton was built.

But I agree that it's about a 99% certainty that the bomb Juliet detonated is what caused that.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

thenightfly42 said:


> I'm annoyed that the producers are intentionally not revealing the name of MIB. There's no real reason for the characters not to say his name.


HRG, MIB, to-may-to, to-mah-to.....


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Remember Jacob was at the Jin/Sun wedding. In the LA X timeline this probably did not happen. So, whatever Jacob did in the original timeline's wedding to nudge things to his advantage, did not happen (or happened with a different agenda for Jacob).
> 
> Jin and Sun's relationship could be completely different. Sun may not have had a reason to learn English and may not want to leave Jin. They may not even be married.


I respectfully disagree. I may be wrong but it sure seemed like Sun understood English. The hesitation between the words No and English is either a big red herring or it was her making the decision to leave Jin on his own. Having Jin caught with his ill-gotten loot could have been the last straw and she has really decided to abandon him to the currency violation as a way to get free of him.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

ronsch said:


> I respectfully disagree. I may be wrong but it sure seemed like Sun understood English. The hesitation between the words No and English is either a big red herring or it was her making the decision to leave Jin on his own. Having Jin caught with his ill-gotten loot could have been the last straw and she has really decided to abandon him to the currency violation as a way to get free of him.


This is what I was thinking too. She understood it. She had the same same hesitation when he told her in the airplane to button the top button on her sweater....she is tired of it.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

OK, here's another theory. Its way out there, but what if the Island is heaven? That would mean that Adam and Eve are really Adam and Eve. Jacob is the Father, Richard is the Son, and MiB is the Holy Ghost.


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## lodica1967 (Aug 5, 2003)

Wow finally made it through the whole thread. Almost everything I wanted to say has been covered.

The one thing I didn't see mentioned was the idea that the healing water could also be a fountain of youth. Maybe that is why Richard, Jacob and MIB never age? Just a thought. 

Maybe it cures you if you are injured but keeps you young if you are healthy.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Alpinemaps said:


> Might even been easier than that. If MiB doesn't want outsiders, the pilot was killed because he just delivered a whole mess of outsiders to the island (even if it wasn't Sean's fault).





Alpinemaps said:


> Yes, quoting myself.
> 
> Spoilers about the show I linked to above:
> 
> ...


About the ending of Felicity:


Spoiler



Yeah there was a whole weird time travel thing at the end of Felicity. About 5-6 episodes before the end, they were in the future and she and Ben broke up because he was cheating on her, and she went back to NYC for Noel's wedding and told Meghan that she should have stayed with Noel. Meghan did some sort of time travel spell to send her back in time so she could do things differently, and then there was a few episodes of Felicity back in the past (or I guess the present since the other episode was in the future), but in the finale Noel was killed in a fire and Felicity goes through this whole thing to undo the spell and go back to the future so that Noel wouldn't die. It was really confusing and at the end of it they said she had been sick or something with a fever. I can't remember now if we were REALLY supposed to think that she was actually time traveling or if it was supposed to be "oh it was all a fever dream, phew!"


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> ....... It will turn into a philosophical morality debate: who lives, who dies?


And to make a great tie in to the beginning, we'll have Jack or someone else saying "live together die alone. I think they will realize the dual realities but in order to fix it, they will have to choose together which one they prefer.......


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Also, books have always seemed to important....and I am surprise noone mentioned it yet (though I only read through Page 8)....

The book Desmond was reading on the plane in the opening scene was Haroun and the Sea of Stories by Salman Rushdie.....

One plot snippet of the book:

"Haroun Khalifa lives in the country of Alifbay, in a city so sad its inhabitants have forgotten its name. "

Maybe the city lost its name.......


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Weird that they found Montag's (sp) body within the walls of the temple area. Was MiB living within the temple then? 

Also weird that the bullet couldn't pierce MiB (that's how I took the bent bullet they picked up), but a simple knife killed Jacob. Of course, Ben asked why Jacob didn't put up a fight. Going back to the Jesus comparison, he seemed to be letting himself die for some reason. He told Ben he had a choice, but that was probably to give Ben a chance to save himself rather than to save Jacob. Also along those lines, Sayid went into the water and came out reborn--like baptism.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

dswallow said:


> I guess Sayid coming back to life was good. Though I challenge anybody to claim they weren't expecting it to happen


Possibly our cat, though she's pretty sharp and seemed bored when it happened.

Characters turn out to be not who they are. Dead people come back to life, routinely. Alternate timelines. Stream of consciousness plots. Portentous dialog delivered with furrowed brow. Transporter-like technobabble.

Jumped the shark?

The shark, my dear, has long since morphed into a piece of past-prime tuna fish.

Bad Robot, indeed.

And yet I watch; well, my wife watches; but I don't leave the room. God will hold me accountable for that.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> Weird that they found Montag's (sp) body within the walls of the temple area. Was MiB living within the temple then?


Ah, so that's where Montag is.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> OK, here's another theory. Its way out there, but what if the Island is heaven? That would mean that Adam and Eve are really Adam and Eve. Jacob is the Father, Richard is the Son, and MiB is the Holy Ghost.


I think you might need to re-read your bible if you believe Adam and Eve ended up in heaven


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I think you might need to re-read your bible if you believe Adam and Eve ended up in heaven


Oh man! Where's the spoiler alert? 
BTW, where DID they end up?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

lodica1967 said:


> The one thing I didn't see mentioned was the idea that the healing water could also be a fountain of youth. Maybe that is why Richard, Jacob and MIB never age? Just a thought.
> 
> Maybe it cures you if you are injured but keeps you young if you are healthy.


I don't recall that being mentioned before.
I like it! :up:


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## speaker city (Sep 28, 2005)

Pretty cool to see the guys that played Adams and Starr on Deadwood on Lost. I like when good actors get good parts.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

So who is Jacob talking about "They are coming" as he is dying?


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

brianp6621 said:


> So who is Jacob talking about "They are coming" as he is dying?


The losties that were stuck in 1977.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Hey wait a second..

Richard told Sun that he watched her friends (the people in the orientation picture) die. When? Does watching them walk to the construction site "count" as watching them die? Does just the lack of finding their bodies convince Richard that they died, even though he saw Locke disappear *three times*?


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

brianp6621 said:


> So who is Jacob talking about "They are coming" as he is dying?


Other others!!

Charles Widmore and company?


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

brianp6621 said:


> So who is Jacob talking about "They are coming" as he is dying?





TheMerk said:


> The losties that were stuck in 1977.


That's what I thought as well.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Seriously though, there are two timelines.


Here's my theory. And the nature of time travel makes this confusing to state, so bear with me.

The point of the bomb was to retroactively change the past such that the plane never crashed (et al.). It failed. However, something later in the season will happen that will finish what it started, and succeed. The story following that will be the alternate version of events caused by that retroactive change, the storyline in which the plane never crashed, and the island is underwater.

The "alternate reality" scenes we are seeing are, thus, yet another flashforward/flashback, just like the ones we've been seeing all along. I.e., seeing the story of Lost out of order. In this case, though, it's a flash*forward* to a later part of the story, though it's also a flash*back* to an earlier part of the history.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

lodica1967 said:


> Wow finally made it through the whole thread. Almost everything I wanted to say has been covered.
> 
> The one thing I didn't see mentioned was the idea that the healing water could also be a fountain of youth. Maybe that is why Richard, Jacob and MIB never age? Just a thought.
> 
> Maybe it cures you if you are injured but keeps you young if you are healthy.


Oh, I had a thought that the spring could be a Fountain of Youth but forgot to post it.

I do think it plays into why Ricardus doesn't seem to age.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

What is Jacob and MIB are angels and Jacob has tethered MIB to this world. Jacob wants to prove that man, even with free will, can choose a righteous path. MIB just wants to go back to heaven.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Hunter Green said:


> Here's my theory. And the nature of time travel makes this confusing to state, so bear with me.


 I didn't understand any of that. But nice try.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Hunter Green said:


> Here's my theory. And the nature of time travel makes this confusing to state, so bear with me.
> 
> The point of the bomb was to retroactively change the past such that the plane never crashed (et al.). It failed. However, something later in the season will happen that will finish what it started, and succeed. The story following that will be the alternate version of events caused by that retroactive change, the storyline in which the plane never crashed, and the island is underwater.
> 
> The "alternate reality" scenes we are seeing are, thus, yet another flashforward/flashback, just like the ones we've been seeing all along. I.e., seeing the story of Lost out of order. In this case, though, it's a flash*forward* to a later part of the story, though it's also a flash*back* to an earlier part of the history.





getreal said:


> I didn't understand any of that. But nice try.


I actually understood it. 

Mostly because this is what my wife thinks. And my wife doesn't read any message boards, nor listens to any podcasts. She watches the show (as she says, with a big question mark or WTF? hanging over her head), and asks me to help explain things.

But, she came up with that same theory on her own. It boils down to this - the 'flashsideways' is really just how the show is going to end. That's the timeline we'll see intact.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Alpinemaps said:


> But, she came up with that same theory on her own. It boils down to this - the 'flashsideways' is really just how the show is going to end. That's the timeline we'll see intact.


I think that theory is, as my PhD adviser loved to say, brilliant but wrong.

I think where they're heading is that these are two different worlds existing simultaneously, and that's a problem that needs to be resolved.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Yeah, I think the two timelines will at some point and somehow unify; the way a stream would if it a boulder was thrown into it (to use Faraday's analogy). The water flows around the boulder as two streams, then come back together on the other side.


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## Necromancer2006 (Jan 26, 2008)

I don't think it's about existing simultaneously at all - it's all predicated on this is what happened. I don't think it's anything about convergence at all... Remember Jacob and MIB saying "it's the same thing over and over".

What happened, happened. In both instances.

Imagine that flight 815 crashed. All the events that happened with it happened. Same thing with the Blackrock. All the events that happened with it, happened. Now - because a few people from the Flight 815 instance actually came back and tried to alter what happened, an anomaly was created that created the loophole MIB was after. Jacob also was able to set into motion events that would help his cause as well.

All the stuff that we see of Flight 815 landing is red-herring. We're getting glimpses of what would have happened - not actually what is happening. I don't think it's parallel at all. We're seeing what would have happened, not what happened. That's the difference (and also just my theory).

Sure, we have to reconcile that the Blackrock is there and in the same instance as Flight 815, but for all we know, this is the umpteen-thousandth iteration occurring.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think that theory is, as my PhD adviser loved to say, brilliant but wrong.
> 
> I think where they're heading is that these are two different worlds existing simultaneously, and that's a problem that needs to be resolved.


While I agree with you - you can tell my wife that. I'm not telling her she's wrong!


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think where they're heading is that these are two different worlds existing simultaneously, and that's a problem that needs to be resolved.


I think where they're heading is that these are two different worlds existing simultaneously, and there is no problem that needs to be resolved.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

zordude said:


> I think where they're heading is that these are two different worlds existing simultaneously, and there is no problem that needs to be resolved.


That would make for a pretty boring season...


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That would make for a pretty boring season...


Well I'm sure there will be lots of problems 

I guess I should clarify that I mean that I don't think the two realities need to be resolved into one "right" reality.

Z


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

zordude said:


> I guess I should clarify that I mean that I don't think the two realities need to be resolved into one "right" reality.


Would you care to place a small wager?

Say, winner gets to roundly mock the loser?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

zordude said:


> Well I'm sure there will be lots of problems
> 
> I guess I should clarify that I mean that I don't think the two realities need to be resolved into one "right" reality.
> 
> Z


Ooof, I can't think of a worse ending than to show tens or hundreds of parallel universes, all at different stages and with different conclusions. All stretching out on the screen saying, "Thanks for blowing 6 years watching this. Turns out nothing really matters."

2 realities? Just slightly less worse than that.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think that theory is, as my PhD adviser loved to say, brilliant but wrong.
> 
> I think where they're heading is that these are two different worlds existing simultaneously, and that's a problem that needs to be resolved.


Is Marv Wolfman writing this season?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> Is Marv Wolfman writing this season?


Crisis On Two Earths?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Anyone else notice that the note from Jacob was, essentially, a list of names? Maybe Jacob is Santa Claus


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

So the theory I was thinking about this morning in the shower is that the timelines will unify at the end of the series, the alternate timeline (currently in '04) will move along quickly so that by the last episode the timelines are lined up ready to unify. The 6 remaining people that Jacob has touched will come together in some kind of Voltron-like way to reconstitute Jacob; or fight for Jacob, and will defeat the MIB which will somehow bring the timelines together. In doing so, they will also have to sacrifice themselves, all the 815ers will die and their alternate selves will continue on in the unified timeline. This way everyone dies and yet also lives happily ever after.


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

Hunter Green said:


> Here's my theory. And the nature of time travel makes this confusing to state, so bear with me.
> 
> The point of the bomb was to retroactively change the past such that the plane never crashed (et al.). It failed. However, something later in the season will happen that will finish what it started, and succeed. The story following that will be the alternate version of events caused by that retroactive change, the storyline in which the plane never crashed, and the island is underwater.
> 
> The "alternate reality" scenes we are seeing are, thus, yet another flashforward/flashback, just like the ones we've been seeing all along. I.e., seeing the story of Lost out of order. In this case, though, it's a flash*forward* to a later part of the story, though it's also a flash*back* to an earlier part of the history.


If I'm reading this right and I think I am...I agree



Test said:


> ....
> Last thought...could the timeline that we see where 815 never crashed be the aftermath of when they finally set everything right at the end of this season? What I mean is, instead of fixing their problem and setting things right midway through the season then following up with how life is for the survivors for the rest of the season they are doing it at the same time so they can end it with one big finale?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

USA Today has a "Test Your LOST IQ" quiz today. Check it out. I got 12/15. I'm sure most of you will do better.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> USA Today has a "Test Your LOST IQ" quiz today. Check it out. I got 12/15. I'm sure most of you will do better.


13/15.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

14/15 - missed the book question


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> 14/15 - missed the book question


Same here.


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

I think the key is that what the Losties did in '77 effects not only them, but a lot of things. It's the differences we see in the flashsideways on the plane. People are different. Some are different in a major way (Charlie), some seem minor (Jack's fear of flying). 

I agree that at some point, they are going to realize there are two different realities happening and that only one can exist ("there can be only one"). It will be up to the Losties to figure out which reality "wins".

Don't know if it will happen, but I think it will be totally cool if at the last scene of the series is Jack and Locke on a beach with Sawyer looking at other and Locke saying "you know how much I want to kill you?"...


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

MasterCephus said:


> Don't know if it will happen, but I think it will be totally cool if at the last scene of the series is Jack and Locke on a beach with Sawyer looking at other and Locke saying "you know how much I want to kill you?"...


The first scene of the first season started with a close-up of Jack's eye opening.
The last scene of the finale could be Jack's eye closing. RIP.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Some guesses on what's different in the alternate reality:

-Sun doesn't speak English; Jin and Sun are not married; Jin _does_ speak English.

-Locked became paralyzed in a different way

-Sawyer didn't kill anyone in Australia

-The numbers Hurley won the lottery with are different

-Rose doesn't have cancer

-Sayid never worked for the CIA


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## flyers088 (Apr 19, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> USA Today has a "Test Your LOST IQ" quiz today. Check it out. I got 12/15. I'm sure most of you will do better.


14/15 but I think they messed up the Unstuck question.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

flyers088 said:


> 14/15 but I think they messed up the Unstuck question.


No, that was right.

The one about who saw the smoke monster first was a bit ambiguous...do they mean in the show or chronologically? There were two possible correct answers depending on how you interpret the question.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I remember a scene where Ben and Ethan took the baby, but I don't remember the smoke monster being there. Was it? (I bow to the 15's--I only got 10 )


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, that was right.
> 
> The one about who saw the smoke monster first was a bit ambiguous...do they mean in the show or chronologically? There were two possible correct answers depending on how you interpret the question.


The strange thing about the answer to that question was that it mentioned how Danielle saw the column of smoke when Alex was born. But I never equated the column of smoke that she saw, which appeared to come from a fire, to the Smoke Monster. Did other people think she was referring to Smoky when she made that comment?


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## ThePennyDropped (Jul 5, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> The strange thing about the answer to that question was that it mentioned how Danielle saw the column of smoke when Danielle was born. But I never equated the column of smoke that she saw, which appeared to come from a fire, to the Smoke Monster. Did other people think she was referring to Smoky when she made that comment?


I agree with you. The column of smoke she saw was smoke from a fire, not Smoky.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ThePennyDropped said:


> I agree with you. The column of smoke she saw was smoke from a fire, not Smoky.


On the other hand, she did see Smokey (at the wall to the Temple), right?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ok, right. Thanks.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> On the other hand, she did see Smokey (at the wall to the Temple), right?


Of course. I'm not saying Danielle never saw Smoky. I'm just saying that the little snippet they gave in that quiz to justify the correct answer was actually incorrect.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

I just watched the season premier and read the entire thread and my head is spinning. The one thing I didn't see addressed (which probably means I'm the only one who can't wrap my head around it) is... the temple... is in the current timeline, right? 2007? Which means it was there the entire time through the first five seasons? And no one ever saw it or was kidnapped into it or... anything else? That seems like quite a big place for no one to have accidentally run across...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

sushikitten said:


> I just watched the season premier and read the entire thread and my head is spinning. The one thing I didn't see addressed (which probably means I'm the only one who can't wrap my head around it) is... the temple... is in the current timeline, right? 2007? Which means it was there the entire time through the first five seasons? And no one ever saw it or was kidnapped into it or... anything else? That seems like quite a big place for no one to have accidentally run across...


A few seasons ago Ben sent half his people there and we heard about it. We saw Daniel's team go up to the wall of it and Montand was sucked in. They said the wall was big enough to keep people away. It does seem like a big island.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Okay. That stuff sounds familiar. I guess I was thinking the temple was from forever ago, because I thought it was in ruins when Losties saw it from the outside - but even if that was just for show, the actual temple was so huge I'm not sure how a small set of ruins could hide the whole compound.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

sushikitten said:


> Okay. That stuff sounds familiar. I guess I was thinking the temple was from forever ago, because I thought it was in ruins when Losties saw it from the outside - but even if that was just for show, the actual temple was so huge I'm not sure how a small set of ruins could hide the whole compound.


The only thing we ever saw before was the wall. The section of wall we saw wasn't in ruins, although it was clearly very old. There was also the opening that led down to where the French team was led by Smokey.

But the temple itself is apparently a mile or so in from the wall (I'm not sure where I got that, but it's in my brain from somewhere).


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