# Game of Thrones 8/13/17 "Eastwatch"



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And now we know...Jon was legitimate.


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## purwater (Aug 25, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And now we know...Jon was legitimate.


That's what I said to my wife.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And now we know...Jon was legitimate.


And Drogon likes him!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

So if Dany is Mother to Dragons, I guess that makes Jon Cousin to Dragons?

That's quite a motley crew he's gathered for his little expedition! And it looks like Gendry has a purpose in this story after all.

Ironic that Sam gets one of the most important pieces of information he'll ever get...and completely disregards it because it comes from Gilly, just like the Maesters completely disregarded what he had to say.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I'm sure we will have the full text of the message soon. I could only see that it said someone was dead. Interesting that Arya and Littlefinger are spying on each other. Littlefinger is trying to get between Arya and Sansa. Good to see Gendry again. That's quite the crew heading beyond the wall.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> I'm sure we will have the full text of the message soon.


I'm pretty sure that was from when Sansa betrayed her father in a vain attempt to save him. Now coming back to haunt her.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Lots of interesting things going on here.

So Cersei is pregnant? Guess that witch didn't see a 4th baby coming, did she....assuming Cersei isn't lying about it, which I suppose is a possibility.

Gendry is back...I had a feeling he'd show up as soon as we knew Davos was heading to Kings Landing. Cool to see all of these old loose ends surfacing once again. Now I actually have to rethink all the other loose ends I may have forgotten about

So what is Littlefinger up to. Was that scroll planted for Arya to find? I assume yes. Is it actually legitimate or forged? What was it about. All I could read was:

...love is dead, killed from wounds he took in a .....
...Joffrey and tried to steal his throne. The La[???nisters???]...
....Kings Landing and swear fealty to King Joffrey and...
Your [???faithfull???] sister
Sansa

Other than 1 or 2 extra blurry words, there wasn't much more to get from what we saw. I tried looking from the back side of the scroll but it seemed way to blurry to infer any words from my 1080p version. Is the show available in 4k at all? Anyway, from what I can see there, it looks like a scroll from Sansa to Robb saying that Ned was dead and to call Robb to Kings Landing, and I think it's forged and trying to make it look like Sansa was taking Joffrey's side. Though it could be a legitimate scroll that Sansa was forced to write. I'll have to go back and check season 1 or early season 2. I recall Robb got a scroll or 2 by raven at the time...perhaps this was one of those.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm pretty sure that was from when Sansa betrayed her father in a vain attempt to save him. Now coming back to haunt her.


It appears Littlefinger is trying to get between Sansa and Arya. That would certainly help his cause. He obviously wanted her to find it.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ahh....just checked Season 1 Episode 8. Sansa is pulled into Cersei's chambers along with Pycell, Varys, and Littlefinger...and Cersei tells Sansa to write to Catelyn and Robb and urge Robb to come to Kings Landing and swear fealty. Though this was written before Ned's death. I'm not sure what the "love is dead, killed from wounds he took" part refers to


Edit: oh, that must refer to Robert's death. Now checking the scroll again, I can make out "wound's he took in a boar hunt"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Ahh....just checked Season 1 Episode 8. Sansa is pulled into Cersei's chambers along with Pycell, Varys, and Littlefinger...and Cersei tells Sansa to write to Catelyn and Robb and urge Robb to come to Kings Landing and swear fealty. Though this was written before Ned's death. I'm not sure what the "love is dead, killed from wounds he took" part refers to


That's Robert's death by boar, I believe...


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's Robert's death by boar, I believe...


I snuck the ninja edit it before you could post


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I'm curious how Sam would have reacted to his father and brother's death. They were both dicks to him. Although the new Dickon seems a little nicer.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

So Littlefinger's doing a good job gently tugging the strings as he always does. I'm betting he's been whispering in everyone else in order to encourage the bannermen to want to turn on Jon in favor of Sansa.

At the beginning...Bronn and Jamie surfaced pretty far from the battle...another oddity about this whole water ending last week. One thing I will note is that we know they were talking about crossing the Blackwater rush. Apparently according to the book, that's a very deep, very fast running river, so presumably that's why it looked so deep last week and why they were so far away this week. Yet the water seemed a bit calm when they surfaced.

As least we resolved any uncertainty about the two Tarley's in last weeks battle....they are both alive...ok, were.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Also, you will notice, there was no sign of Drogon being crippled by the Scorpion...


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Ironic that Sam gets one of the most important pieces of information he'll ever get...and completely disregards it because it comes from Gilly, just like the Maesters completely disregarded what he had to say.


I think he disregarded it less because it came from Gilly, and more because it didn't seem relevant.

That information would only be relevant if he knew whom Rhaegar had married, that they had had a child, and that the child was still alive today. I'm assuming the book details that it was Lyanna whom Rhaegar had married, and if that book was among those that Sam took with him, he might eventually stumble upon that fact, and it will pique his interest. But even with that knowledge, he would still have to find out about the child, and that child's identity.

If Sam knows Jon's history and also finds documentation that Lyanna was pregnant, then he might be able to connect the rest of the dots.

I wonder if he will bring this information to Daenerys, and she won't believe him, thinking he is doing it because of what she did to his family. And then we will have to hope that Jorah makes it back in time to tell her what Sam did for him before she burns Sam alive too.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm pretty sure that was from when Sansa betrayed her father in a vain attempt to save him. Now coming back to haunt her.


At the time, I think she truly believed that her father had been caught up in a conspiracy to steal the crown from Joffrey. She didn't think he was the driving force behind it, but thought that he had been manipulated into it.

So even though Cersei told her what words to write, I think she believed them to be true. In other words, I think it was less, "You better write these lies or else your father dies," and more, "The only hope for your father's survival is for your brother to prove your family's loyalty to the crown."

Unfortunately, Arya might not realize it was the latter.

But I'm holding out hope that she knew Petyr was watching her, and is leading him along hoping that he will expose his true colors to Sansa. She can disguise herself as other people. There's no need to spy on Petyr as Arya unless she wants him to know she's there.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> I'm curious how Sam would have reacted to his father and brother's death. They were both dicks to him. Although the new Dickon seems a little nicer.


I don't remember his brother treating Sam poorly. He didn't stick up for him, but didn't berate him like his father did either. Was there more about that in the books?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> But I'm holding out hope that she knew Petyr was watching her, and is leading him along hoping that he will expose his true colors to Sansa. She can disguise herself as other people. There's no need to spy on Petyr as Arya unless she wants him to know she's there.


This seems likely to me. LF doesn't know she is a Faceless one.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Well, my shake my head moment happened right a way this episode. How does Jaime (the guy charging at Danerys with a spear) and Bronn magically turn into Michael Phelps and wind up alive, downriver from the carnage of the battle? No one thought to make sure the "guy trying to kill our khaleesi" should be hunted and killed? I can suspend my disbelief with the best of them but this is just silly. Not to mention he was able to hike all the way back to Kings Landing, alive and well, to give Cersei a SITREP (situation report) and make further plans to maintain the throne.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

In an earlier thread, someone mentioned Drogon going face to face with Jon Snow and sniffing out his dragonhood. I think it was Anubys but whomever it was, good call.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> Well, my shake my head moment happened right way this episode. How does Jaime (the guy charging at Danerys with a spear) and Bronn magically turn into Michael Phelps and wind up alive, downriver from the carnage of the battle? No one thought to make sure the "guy trying to kill our khaleesi" should be hunted and killed? I can suspend my disbelief with the best of them but this is just silly. Not to mention he was able to hike all the way back to Kings Landing, alive and well, to give Cersei a SITREP (situation report).


And on top of that, they completely glossed over Tyrion thinking Jaime was dead. (I'm assuming everyone thought Jaime was dead because otherwise they would have gone after him.) They went from that to Tyrion offering to pass a message to Cersei through Jaime. What happened when they found out that Jaime was alive? Was anybody shocked that he had escaped dragon fire and made it down the river in full armor?

In my opinion, Jaime should have been captured, and then released as a gesture of good will in order to take the message back to Cersei. Or, even better, he should never have charged Daenerys in the first place.

That whole scene and the resulting events were completely wasted and unnecessary.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> In my opinion, Jaime should have been captured, and then released as a gesture of good will in order to take the message back to Cersei. Or, even better, he should never have charged Daenerys in the first place.
> 
> That whole scene and the resulting events were completely wasted and unnecessary.


I'm glad I'm not the only one. For such a great show, this seemed like very weak writing.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I did get a kick out of Davos' Westerosi Viagra scam, and also Tyrion quickly welcoming Gendry to the team after he had bashed the two guards' heads.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I burst out laughing when Davos said to Gendry, "I thought you might still be rowing." You know that line only made it into the show because of all the jokes and memes about Gendry still out in that rowboat.

Looks like Eastwatch has the same flawed gate design. Can't wait to see the White Walkers exploit that.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Dany seemed pretty startled that Jon and Drogon got so cozy, but she didn't warn him away in the first place.

It feels like they are setting things up for everybody to turn on the more and more ruthless Dany, especially when it's more than likely revealed that Jon Snow is the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, which she might not give up without a fight.

-smak-


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> It feels like they are setting things up for everybody to turn on the more and more ruthless Dany, especially when it's more than likely revealed that Jon Snow is the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, which she might not give up without a fight.


Which brings us back to my theory that Jon leverages his status (once everybody knows it) into allowing Dany the Iron Throne in exchange for Dany agreeing to leave the North alone...


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which brings us back to my theory that Jon leverages his status (once everybody knows it) into allowing Dany the Iron Throne in exchange for Dany agreeing to leave the North alone...


Jon doesn't want the Iron Throne, so it's not like he'd be giving up anything.

As for Arya and Littlefinger, those scenes reminded me of when she was casually wandering around the city in the open being hunted by the Waif. Maybe she's not as good a Faceless Man as everyone thinks.


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## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

A pretty good writeup on the Arya scenes with the scroll:

Watch the leadup scenes that explain Arya's note in this week's Game of Thrones episode, Eastwatch


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Anyone else put off a little by Aunt Dany making googly eyes at her nephew Jon?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

wprager said:


> Anyone else put off a little by Aunt Dany making googly eyes at her nephew Jon?


Not me. She doesn't know they're related.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

wprager said:


> Anyone else put off a little by Aunt Dany making googly eyes at her nephew Jon?


No more than Jaime banging Cersei in a Winterfell tower.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

wprager said:


> Anyone else put off a little by Aunt Dany making googly eyes at her nephew Jon?


Oh, Dany is falling head over heels...and Tyrion sees it...



cheesesteak said:


> Not me. She doesn't know they're related.


Not only does she not know, I doubt she would care.

I don't see any way Sam took the scrolls that contain the proof that Raegar and Lyanna were legally married. To him, they are the scrolls of the man who counted steps, windows, and craps...he wouldn't waste space on anything but white walker books.

I thought LF was trying to trick everyone in thinking Jon Snow is dead so Sansa would take over...Glad to see that I was wrong about that...Love TCF!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I wonder if Jon sent a raven to Winterfell with the message that the King of the North was back in the North. Probably not.

Gilly will probably somehow have smuggled out the Raegar scroll.

Looks like we're going to get Arya on Sansa drama every episode now.

I wish the Night King's army would get a bit more pep in their step.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Sam handed that book to the kid. I doubt he meant to bring it but I bet it gets brought because the kid was playing with it.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Gilly will probably somehow have smuggled out the Raegar scroll.


I could be wrong, but didn't she give that one to the baby to play with?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> Well, my shake my head moment happened right a way this episode. How does Jaime (the guy charging at Danerys with a spear) and Bronn magically turn into Michael Phelps and wind up alive, downriver from the carnage of the battle? No one thought to make sure the "guy trying to kill our khaleesi" should be hunted and killed? I can suspend my disbelief with the best of them but this is just silly. Not to mention he was able to hike all the way back to Kings Landing, alive and well, to give Cersei a SITREP (situation report) and make further plans to maintain the throne.


Yeah, lots of weird little disappointments. Littlefinger might as well have been twirling his moustache while a soap opera organ went dun-dun-dun. Would have been much better not to know he planted the paper on purpose.

Khalisi's makeup was heavy and painfully obvious.

And right, float downriver wearing armor then pop up and walk off.

Plus, all of this back and forth travel had to take months. What's up with Winter? Shouldn't there at least be flurries in Westerns?


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

I'm not a book reader but I found a pretty decent youtube channel that has some videos that are like audio books (mildly illustrated) being read by GoT TV show characters. I think they provide a good history/background for those of us that didn't read the books.

It's called scrivatv. If you search it on youtube, it should come right up.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Yeah, lots of weird little disappointments. Littlefinger might as well have been twirling his moustache while a soap opera organ went dun-dun-dun. Would have been much better not to know he planted the paper on purpose.


Although if the twist (as suggested above) is actually that ARYA is playing LITTLEFINGER, then they set it up perfectly...they'd have to be sure that everybody knows that Littlefinger thinks he's playing Arya for that to work dramatically.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I wish the Night King's army would get a bit more pep in their step.


Cut them some slack...they're dead tired!


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Am I wrong, but would the raven scroll Littlefinger found actually help Sansa if its out of circulation? That scroll, while we know was done under duress, could show Sansa to be a traitor. If LF uses it, then he's scum, but he could be doing it to protect Sansa.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> I don't remember his brother treating Sam poorly. He didn't stick up for him, but didn't berate him like his father did either. Was there more about that in the books?


Not a book reader, but I remember him being kind of an a-hole.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Seen on twitter:

**what it's like being a woman**

GILLY: here's the biggest reveal of the season it says—

SAM: could you shut up I'm tired of this let's go


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Seen on twitter:
> 
> **what it's like being a woman**
> 
> ...


And I repeat, the irony is that Sam is so grumpy because the Maesters have just blown off what he has to say.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> In an earlier thread, someone mentioned Drogon going face to face with Jon Snow and sniffing out his dragonhood. I think it was Anubys but whomever it was, good call.


I predicted something similar, though I'll admit I was expecting it to be one of the other dragons (which he would eventually end up riding).


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

I've read many times about how Sam is an idiot by just ignoring Gilly on such an important fact. However, only a few people know about Jon's parents, and Sam is not one of them. Why should he care of some tidbit about Raegar?

Finally, it seems like that book is coming with them, so it will be mention again in the future.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Now that Sam has dropped out of Maester school, how long before he starts getting threatening student loan payback ravens?

I saw this on philly.com:


> Having The Hound (Rory McCann) and Beric Dondarrion (Richard Dormer) join Jon's ragtag band of White Walker-seeking brothers - which already included Ser Jorah (Iain Glen) and Tormund Giantsbane (Kristofer Hivju) - felt like the first installment of the Westeros remake of _The A-Team_.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

smak said:


> ...especially when it's more than likely revealed that Jon Snow is the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms...


Someone help me out, please. 

Dany's father was the mad king. The mad king's brother is Jon's father. (I know their names but can't spell them!)

Is that correct?

What is the line to the throne that would make Jon the rightful ruler?

I would have thought Dany or her brother, then Jon as their cousin.

I'm not really up on the whole line of procession thing.

Thanks!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> Sam handed that book to the kid. I doubt he meant to bring it but I bet it gets brought because the kid was playing with it.





heySkippy said:


> I could be wrong, but didn't she give that one to the baby to play with?


No, I watched it a few times to verify. There was a book in front of Gilly that she was reading. There was a book in the center of the table that Sam was transcribing from, and a book in front of Sam that he was transcribing to. The book he picked up was the one in the middle of the table that he was transcribing from. After he hands the kid the book, you can still see Gilly's book in front of her.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

ClutchBrake said:


> Someone help me out, please.
> 
> Dany's father was the mad king. The mad king's brother is Jon's father. (I know their names but can't spell them!)
> 
> Is that correct?


No, John's Dad is Rhaegar, who is the mad kings oldest son, and dany's oldest brother. The rule of succession dictates that the oldest son becomes king, and then the oldest son's children go after him, and it's only when all descendents (edit: legitimate descendents...bastards dont count, which is why gilly's find is important) in that oldest son's subtree are dead that you start backtracking in the tree to find a second oldest son, at which point you begin tracing down that family tree.

Of course, now that Jon has already died, has his claim to the throne been voided the same way his vows to the nights watch were?


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## lparsons21 (Feb 17, 2015)

dcheesi said:


> I predicted something similar, though I'll admit I was expecting it to be one of the other dragons (which he would eventually end up riding).


I'm thinking he will end up riding one of them too.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dtle said:


> I've read many times about how Sam is an idiot by just ignoring Gilly on such an important fact. However, only a few people know about Jon's parents, and Sam is not one of them. Why should he care of some tidbit about Raegar?


He's not an idiot for ignoring Gilly on such an important fact. He's an idiot for ignoring Gilly. If he'd been a good boyfriend and just paid attention to her, then when that information became critical, he would know it.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> No, John's Dad is Rhaegar, who is the mad kings oldest son, and dany's oldest brother. The rule of succession dictates that the oldest son becomes king, and then the oldest son's children go after him, and it's only when all descendents (edit: legitimate descendents...bastards dont count, which is why gilly's find is important) in that oldest son's subtree are dead that you start backtracking in the tree to find a second oldest son, at which point you begin tracing down that family tree.
> 
> Of course, now that Jon has already died, has his claim to the throne been voided the same way his vows to the nights watch were?


Ah!

Thank you so much!  :up:


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He's not an idiot for ignoring Gilly on such an important fact. He's an idiot for ignoring Gilly. If he'd been a good boyfriend and just paid attention to her, then when that information became critical, he would know it.


Assuming the scroll had the information about who he was remarried to. I would assume it would, but I'd also assume that Gilly would know who house Stark is and I'd expect that if she saw the Stark name mentioned there she would have persisted in telling Sam even after he rudely cut her off.

Edit: however, I think the important thing is that Sam knows Rhaegar's marriage was annulled and him remaried. Bran's vision can provide all the info necessary. It seems like he knows everything that's happened, even down to the details of Sansa rape and the words that Littlefinger spoke to Varys in an insignificant private conversation, so I'm sure Bran know about both the lineage and the annulment/remarriage. Sam merely needs to be able to say "wait, Bran isn't just making this up...I can prove that really did happen".


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

ClutchBrake said:


> Someone help me out, please.
> 
> Dany's father was the mad king. The mad king's brother is Jon's father. (I know their names but can't spell them!)
> 
> ...


All legitimate males are important and legitimate females are only important if there are zero males. There used to be zero legitimate males. Now we've found a male in the line. We found out last night he's a legitimate one.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> All legitimate males are important and legitimate females are only important if there are zero males. There used to be zero legitimate males. Now we've found a male in the line. We found out last night he's a legitimate one.


Plus, as Kronos points out, Rhaegar's line takes precedence even if Dany counts because he's her older brother.

With this information (that Rhaegar's first marriage was annulled and he then married Lyanna), Jon's claim becomes indisputable. The only problem is proving it to Dany. And that can be taken care of with a combination of Gilly's document and Bran's vision (assuming he can take her back the way Max von Sydow took Bran back). Once she knows who he is, I suspect her sense of fairness will force her to deal with him, well, fairly.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Plus, as Kronos points out, Rhaegar's line takes precedence even if Dany counts because he's her older brother.
> 
> With this information (that Rhaegar's first marriage was annulled and he then married Lyanna), Jon's claim becomes indisputable. The only problem is proving it to Dany. And that can be taken care of with a combination of Gilly's document and Bran's vision (assuming he can take her back the way Max von Sydow took Bran back). Once she knows who he is, I suspect her sense of fairness will force her to deal with him, well, fairly.


I beat you to it again with another edit  Maybe I should just post again instead of appending with an edit...I just hate making post after post every time a new thought comes to me right after the previous post.

But as I said above (in another edit, I beleive)...an important consideration is how Jon's death plays into the line of succession (not that anyone needs to know, or would believe it if they were told, but still....)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> But as I said above (in another edit, I beleive)...an important consideration is how Jon's death plays into the line of succession (not that anyone needs to know, or would believe it if they were told, but still....)


Dany _has _been persistently interested in Davos's slip about the knife to the heart...

But she doesn't strike me as the type who would, in the end, allow her claim to the throne to rest on a technicality. Tyrion might argue strongly for it, and she might listen for a while, but ultimately I think a deal is in the works (Jon's recognition of and support for her in exchange for the North's independence in some fashion).


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

smak said:


> Dany seemed pretty startled that Jon and Drogon got so cozy, but she didn't warn him away in the first place.


Right? She looked really surprised. But then what did she think would happen, Drogon would munch him? Then _why was she doing that?_



wprager said:


> Anyone else put off a little by Aunt Dany making googly eyes at her nephew Jon?


She seemed _really_ happy to see Mormont, too. But, yeah, the googly-ness and "I haven't given you permission to leave."... I think she is seeing Jon as a Good Person which may help her step aside for him. Perhaps even, she will feel "dirty" after all the things she'll have to do in the war.



LordKronos said:


> Edit: however, I think the important thing is that Sam knows Rhaegar's marriage was annulled and him remaried. Bran's vision can provide all the info necessary... *Sam merely needs to be able to say "wait, Bran isn't just making this up...I can prove that really did happen".*


Perhaps it will be Gilly that speaks up.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I wish the Night King's army would get a bit more pep in their step.


Well, they are White Walkers, not White Runners. Plus, they are doing a 10,000 steps team-building challenge so they are deliberately taking a longer route. 



Philosofy said:


> Am I wrong, but would the raven scroll Littlefinger found actually help Sansa if its out of circulation? That scroll, while we know was done under duress, could show Sansa to be a traitor. If LF uses it, then he's scum, but he could be doing it to protect Sansa.


It does help Sansa. But Petyr wasn't trying to get the message to expose anything about her. He wanted Arya to think Sansa asked him to do this for her, which will make Arya think Sansa was trying to cover it up, thus making things seem more nefarious than they actually were.

On the flip side, Arya can't just kill somebody, and become them without people wondering where she went. So perhaps getting into a fight with her sister is just the excuse she needs to "leave"...


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> so I'm sure Bran know about both the lineage and the annulment/remarriage. Sam merely needs to be able to say "wait, Bran isn't just making this up...I can prove that really did happen".


Or Gilly. It doesn't necessarily have to be Sam that makes the connection.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tlc said:


> Right? She looked really surprised. But then what did she think would happen, Drogon would munch him? Then _why was she doing that?_


I think she was expecting Drogon to roar and Jon to be freaked out. It was an intimidation play, which failed.


tlc said:


> She seemed _really_ happy to see Mormont, too. But, yeah, the googly-ness and "I haven't given you permission to leave."... I think she is seeing Jon as a Good Person which may help her step aside for him. Perhaps even, she will feel "dirty" after all the things she'll have to do in the war.


I'm not convinced she was being googly...she may have just been showing her growing realization that Jon is not a usurper, but rather somebody she can respect and trust. Which will become important when she's forced to see him as a more legitimate claimant to the throne than she is.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> I wonder if he will bring this information to Daenerys, and she won't believe him, thinking he is doing it because of what she did to his family. And th
> But I'm holding out hope that she knew Petyr was watching her, and is leading him along hoping that he will expose his true colors to Sansa. She can disguise herself as other people. There's no need to spy on Petyr as Arya unless she wants him to know she's there.


Arya's disguise skills require a face to use. There was no indication that she took any from the training house. (Was that called the Black & White house or something?)

Which brings up the Frey revenge. Where did she get that face that Frey did not recognize? He'd have known someone as pretty as that if she lived there.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

As good as last weeks episode was I was disappointed by this episode. I was distracted by the fact they just let Jaime swim away. So the leader of the opposing army is about to attack Dany and he gets knocked into the water by one of his men. So what do they do after that? Just watch him swim away? Assume he drowned? Does he swim underwater that whole way to the other side with armor and a gold hand? Why not have the dragon boil that water and make sure he's dead?


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

dtle said:


> I've read many times about how Sam is an idiot by just ignoring Gilly on such an important fact. However, only a few people know about Jon's parents, and Sam is not one of them. Why should he care of some tidbit about Raegar?


Yeah. It would be one thing if Gilly knew its importance, and Sam ignored her. But Gilly didn't care about the details; she was just excited to be discovering all this information because of her newly-learned ability to read.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while we got to jump straight to the significant part with our inside knowledge of the importance of that information, Sam and Gilly had been reading through those books for hours a day over the course of many days. So Gilly had likely shared all kinds of fun facts with Sam. This was, to Sam, seemingly one more useless fact in the long list of facts about which he and Gilly had been reading.

On top of that, I think Sam is around the same age as Jon, so he would have been an infant during the time of Robert's Rebellion, if he had even been born. Thus, Rhaegar would have been nothing more than a historical figure to him.

And Sam is not focused on politics right now, but on finding out how to stop the White Walkers. Even if he did know the full truth, I doubt he would care about it if it didn't involve Jon (or, I guess, maybe himself ).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JFriday said:


> As good as last weeks episode was I was disappointed by this episode. I was distracted by the fact they just let Jaime swim away.


He didn't swim away, he was carried across the river underwater by Brom, and then dragged out.

Which is just SO much better!


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not convinced she was being googly...she may have just been showing her growing realization that Jon is not a usurper, but rather somebody she can respect and trust. Which will become important when she's forced to see him as a more legitimate claimant to the throne than she is.


That's how I saw it too. I think it was platonic affection she was showing, not romantic. Jon's actions, including his willingness to risk his life on this latest mission, have shown her that he is more concerned for the protection of the realm than gaining power.

And Jon, I think, recognized that she was genuinely concerned for his safety, even though, as he pointed out, it would mean the end of the King in the North if he were to fail.

So I saw the scene as simply demonstrating the increasing trust and friendship between Jon and Daenerys.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> Well, they are White Walkers, not White Runners ...


They might as well be called White Crawlers at the pace they're moving.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> Am I wrong, but would the raven scroll Littlefinger found actually help Sansa if its out of circulation? That scroll, while we know was done under duress, could show Sansa to be a traitor. If LF uses it, then he's scum, but he could be doing it to protect Sansa.


Littlefinger isn't trying to protect Sansa. He's trying to drive a wedge between Sansa and Arya. 


tlc said:


> Right? She looked really surprised. But then what did she think would happen, Drogon would munch him? Then _why was she doing that?_


As Rob said, she was trying to intimidate and show dominance, but then Jon flipped it on her by not being afraid, by actually touching Drogon, and by Drogon seeming to like it. 


JFriday said:


> As good as last weeks episode was I was disappointed by this episode. I was distracted by the fact they just let Jaime swim away. So the leader of the opposing army is about to attack Dany and he gets knocked into the water by one of his men. So what do they do after that? Just watch him swim away? Assume he drowned? Does he swim underwater that whole way to the other side with armor and a gold hand? Why not have the dragon boil that water and make sure he's dead?


Jaime's plot armor is more powerful than any reason you can devise as to why he should have died in that battle. No reason to continue dwelling on it. Jaime needs to live to fulfill his role in the story. So while it may be stupid that none of Dany's men tried to find him, and that he seemingly floated a mile or more down river while underwater, it doesn't matter.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But she doesn't strike me as the type who would, in the end, allow her claim to the throne to rest on a technicality. Tyrion might argue strongly for it, and she might listen for a while, but ultimately I think a deal is in the works (Jon's recognition of and support for her in exchange for the North's independence in some fashion).


I don't know, she's been getting pretty obsessed with her rule lately, so who knows. I'm even reminded of the parallels to the Dance of Dragons...the Targaryen civil war between brother and sister for their father's throne. The daughter has long been thought to be the true heir but the father remaried and had another male heir. The new male was considered rightful by many and given the throne, thought others supported the daughter. The daughter, based out of dragonstone, started a war with her brother for the throne.

Not perfectly parallel, but definitely some similarities.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> He didn't swim away, he was carried across the river underwater by Brom, and then dragged out.
> 
> Which is just SO much better!


Again, the Blackwater Rush is supposed to be a very fast river, which means it could have carried them far quickly (though from what we saw, it didn't appear so fast moving, and even if it were, thats still a long way to be carried on a single breath.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I don't see any way Sam took the scrolls that contain the proof that Raegar and Lyanna were legally married. To him, they are the scrolls of the man who counted steps, windows, and craps...he wouldn't waste space on anything but white walker books.


I figure Gilly took the book she was in the middle of.



LordKronos said:


> No, John's Dad is Rhaegar, who is the mad kings oldest son, and dany's oldest brother. The rule of succession dictates that the oldest son becomes king, and then the oldest son's children go after him, and it's only when all descendents (edit: legitimate descendents...bastards dont count, which is why gilly's find is important) in that oldest son's subtree are dead that you start backtracking in the tree to find a second oldest son, at which point you begin tracing down that family tree.


And then if you get desperate enough you pick a girl.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> He didn't swim away, he was carried across the river underwater by Brom, and then dragged out.
> 
> Which is just SO much better!


"You could have killed me!"


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Question about Jon and Dany's very convoluted plan to capture a Wight and bring it to King's Landing to prove to Cersei that everyone needs to focus their efforts on defending the realm from the White Walkers: Do the wights have to be in some kind of proximity to a WW in order to be animated? Like if Jon & Co. capture one and then take it several miles away from the rest of the WW army, is it suddenly going to go back to being dead since it's not close enough to a WW's magic?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And I repeat, the irony is that Sam is so grumpy because the Maesters have just blown off what he has to say.


That's not a fair comparison. Sam was saying very important things that they simply didn't believe.

Gilly - up to that point - was telling him about how many steps are in one building, how many windows in another, and how many craps the guy took...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

But it's still ironic.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Question about Jon and Dany's very convoluted plan to capture a Wight and bring it to King's Landing to prove to Cersei that everyone needs to focus their efforts on defending the realm from the White Walkers: Do the wights have to be in some kind of proximity to a WW in order to be animated? Like if Jon & Co. capture one and then take it several miles away from the rest of the WW army, is it suddenly going to go back to being dead since it's not close enough to a WW's magic?


I don't think we know. We still don't exactly have a great explanation for why the season 1 wight was able to make it into castle black despite the wall having a magic spell to keep them out. It could be that the spell only stops the white walkers from coming through, but not the wights. Or maybe the dead body didn't become a wight until some white walker hiding in the trees just outside the wall raised him. Or it could be that he was a wight but, due to distance limitations, had been inactivated until a white walker got close enough (and maybe the spell only prevents them from coming through on their own but doesn't prevent the nights watch from carrying them through).


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But it's still ironic.


Like a black raven in your Dornish wine


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Littlefinger isn't trying to protect Sansa. He's trying to drive a wedge between Sansa and Arya.


I don't know if that's goal as much as the tool. I don't think his goal has changed: he wants Sansa to be the Queen of the North. He can marry Sansa. He can't marry Jon.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I don't know if that's goal as much as the tool. I don't think his goal has changed: he wants Sansa to be the Queen of the North. He can marry Sansa. He can't marry Jon.


Right. But he has seen that Arya can be very dangerous and has clearly learned a lot since her days in King's Landing. So he's afraid that if Sansa starts bonding with Arya, it will jeopardize his role as Sansa's primary confidant. Thus, keeping them at odds with each other is how he maintains his relationship with Sansa.


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Question about Jon and Dany's very convoluted plan to capture a Wight and bring it to King's Landing to prove to Cersei that everyone needs to focus their efforts on defending the realm from the White Walkers: Do the wights have to be in some kind of proximity to a WW in order to be animated? Like if Jon & Co. capture one and then take it several miles away from the rest of the WW army, is it suddenly going to go back to being dead since it's not close enough to a WW's magic?


Lord Commander Mormont sent Alliser Thorne to Kings landing with the still animated hand of one of the wights. By the time he got there though, it had rotted. It was still moving until it rotted.

My guess about the dead is that they need freezing temperatures to keep from decomposing, which is why they have waited until winter.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> On top of that, I think Sam is around the same age as Jon, so he would have been an infant during the time of Robert's Rebellion, if he had even been born. Thus, Rhaegar would have been nothing more than a historical figure to him.


Rhaegar "kidnapping" Lyanna Stark is what precipitated Robert's Rebellion. This is a BFD, especially to a maester-wannabe like Sam.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Here's a dumb theory: Jamie didn't drown because Bronn is a disciple of the drowned god.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MacThor said:


> Rhaegar "kidnapping" Lyanna Stark is what precipitated Robert's Rebellion. This is a BFD, especially to a maester-wannabe like Sam.


And of course what's important isn't that he realize the significance of the information, but just that he HAVE the information when it becomes relevant.

As it stands now, Gilly's gonna have all the Maesterly glory!


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

tlc said:


> Arya's disguise skills require a face to use. There was no indication that she took any from the training house. (Was that called the Black & White house or something?)
> 
> Which brings up the Frey revenge. Where did she get that face that Frey did not recognize? He'd have known someone as pretty as that if she lived there.


I don't think they're consistent about how the face magic works. Remember she also used Frey's face after killing him, so it seems like she can use any dead person's face. We've also seen other Faceless Men disguised as living people.


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

Demandred said:


> I don't think they're consistent about how the face magic works. Remember she also used Frey's face after killing him, so it seems like she can use any dead person's face. We've also seen other Faceless Men disguised as living people.


She was pretty deliberate to hold his head up while he bled out, she likely was doing the prep work to harvest his face.

When have we seen any Faceless Men as living people?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

JoeyJoJo said:


> When have we seen any Faceless Men as living people?


What face was Arya wearing when she killed Walder Frey?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> What face was Arya wearing when she killed Walder Frey?


I believe it was one of his younger wives.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> I believe it was one of his younger wives.


No it was one of his daughters.
No it was one of his grand daughters. 
Oh heck let's just say we're all correct here.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think she was expecting Drogon to roar and Jon to be freaked out. It was an intimidation play, which failed.


It seems more and more Drogon is acting on direct verbal commands from Dany. So I'm not 100% sure she expected Drogon to roar at Jon there, but I think she was surprised that Drogon would let Jon get that close. I'm not sure what she thinks about that really. Maybe she thinks only Targaryen's can do that, but Tyrion came pretty close to doing the same with the other 2 dragons.

-smak-


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Another question: Why does it matter which of the Targaryens (Dany or Jon) has the more legitimate claim to the Iron Throne? The Targaryens lost their claim to the throne when they were defeated and deposed during Robert's Rebellion. If Dany builds an army and wins a war to depose the current monarch, then she would be the rightful queen, because at that point the throne would belong to whoever took it by might, not whoever was entitled by lineage.

I mean, isn't the Targaryen's claim to the throne based on them taking it in a war many centuries ago? So their claim is ultimately based on might, not birthright. And that would be the same with Dany, if she's the leader of the army that overthrows Cersei.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

"Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."

Speaking of Monty Python, did the guards trying to keep Arya out of Winterfell remind anyone of guards from Monty Python and the Holy Grail?


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Why don't the men in the north wear hats? I expect them to start doing the Safety Dance.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Another question: Why does it matter which of the Targaryens (Dany or Jon) has the more legitimate claim to the Iron Throne? The Targaryens lost their claim to the throne when they were defeated and deposed during Robert's Rebellion. If Dany builds an army and wins a war to depose the current monarch, then she would be the rightful queen, because at that point the throne would belong to whoever took it by might, not whoever was entitled by lineage.
> 
> I mean, isn't the Targaryen's claim to the throne based on them taking it in a war many centuries ago? So their claim is ultimately based on might, not birthright. And that would be the same with Dany, if she's the leader of the army that overthrows Cersei.


Law isn't everything, but it's important. Dany isn't claiming the throne by right of conquest, she's claiming it by right of birth. Without that right of birth, she's literally no better than Cersei.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> I believe it was one of his younger wives.


Frey wasn't like Caster...he even asked Arya if she was one of his. Once she said she was not, then he copped a feel.

He had lots of wives, but never an implication of incest.

Great. I'm defending Walder Frey!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Great. I'm defending Walder Frey!


I always had my suspicions about you...


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I don't know if that's goal as much as the tool. I don't think his goal has changed: he wants Sansa to be the Queen of the North. He can marry Sansa. He can't marry Jon.


Do we know that for a fact?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

In Westeros, don't you have to be opposite sex and/or a sibling to marry?


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

they could move to dorne.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> In Westeros, don't you have to be opposite sex and/or a sibling to marry?


As far as we know, the only "moral" police got blown up last season in a whole bunch of green fire.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I am still wondering why Jon is keeping the knife in the heart story from Dany. This is twice now he's skirted around letting her know he was brought back.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I am still wondering why Jon is keeping the knife in the heart story from Dany. This is twice now he's skirted around letting her know he was brought back.


I think the reason is that the writers are planning on her (or her advisors) using it against him after she finds out who he is, but before she decides to deal with him. So for now they have to keep dangling it in front of us so it won't come out of nowhere when it happens.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the reason is that the writers are planning on her (or her advisors) using it against him after she finds out who he is, but before she decides to deal with him. So for now they have to keep dangling it in front of us so it won't come out of nowhere when it happens.


I don't agree but you still made me chuckle.

Also can someone tell my boy Petyr he's playing a game he can't win with Arya. I'm counting on his demise now. This can't end well for him.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the reason is that the writers are planning on her (or her advisors) using it against him after she finds out who he is, but before she decides to deal with him. So for now they have to keep dangling it in front of us so it won't come out of nowhere when it happens.


I think my response to this can be summed up by this video from Murder by Death. In this video, I'm Peter Sellers and you're David Niven!






Since nobody has come back from the dead before to contend for a throne, I see no reason why there would be some rule that it disqualifies you. In fact, since Dany's mythos is all about magic and surviving fire (she "died" twice in huge fires), I don't see why coming back from the dead isn't even MORE qualification for being worshiped/followed.

What I think is happening is that Jon is his usual humble self and doesn't want to appear larger than life. When Dany discovers the truth, that will be the final discovery that will make her realize that he is "the one" for her. Jon is the eventual King of Westeros. He's the only one who doesn't want it and thus is best suited for the job.

Everything I've seen so far from the author makes this conclusion very likely in my mind.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the reason is that the writers are planning on her (or her advisors) using it against him after she finds out who he is, but before she decides to deal with him. So for now they have to keep dangling it in front of us so it won't come out of nowhere when it happens.


But not the reason for him now as he has no clue that he is a rival.

I think he doesn't want to show weakness or have her denounce him as a zombie.

Let's see. A guy who returned from the dead via witchcraft is trying to convince you to battle an undead army.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Law isn't everything, but it's important. Dany isn't claiming the throne by right of conquest, she's claiming it by right of birth. Without that right of birth, she's literally no better than Cersei.


But the Targaryen's claim to the throne ended when Robert overthrew Aerys. It shouldn't matter anymore which Targaryen would have been the rightful heir to the throne 30 years before. It's a new day and a new dynasty and it can start with anyone.


photoshopgrl said:


> I am still wondering why Jon is keeping the knife in the heart story from Dany. This is twice now he's skirted around letting her know he was brought back.


Because he's already asking her to take a pretty big leap of faith to believe that an army of undead is marching on Westeros and poses a bigger threat than anything Cersei could muster. If she then finds out that he also claims to have died and been brought back to life, that may just be one step too far and suddenly Jon gets no dragonglass, no help, and perhaps she throws him in prison for trying to defraud her.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also can someone tell my boy Petyr he's playing a game he can't win with Arya. I'm counting on his demise now. This can't end well for him.


Yeah, I'm not thinking this ends well for him.

As for Jon not telling, would you tell someone the God of Light raised you from the dead? I doubt it.  He has no clue Dany can't be killed by fire.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> But the Targaryen's claim to the throne ended when Robert overthrew Aerys. It shouldn't matter anymore which Targaryen would have been the rightful heir to the throne 30 years before. It's a new day and a new dynasty and it can start with anyone.


That doesn't matter. Certainly not to Dany. Her family's throne was usurped. It is, by rights, hers.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

dtle said:


> I've read many times about how Sam is an idiot by just ignoring Gilly on such an important fact. However, only a few people know about Jon's parents, and Sam is not one of them. Why should he care of some tidbit about Raegar?
> 
> Finally, it seems like that book is coming with them, so it will be mention again in the future.


If it was Rhaegar he may have paid attention. But he doesn't care about any "Ragger" getting his marriage annulled.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Law isn't everything, but it's important. Dany isn't claiming the throne by right of conquest, she's claiming it by right of birth. Without that right of birth, she's literally no better than Cersei.


Succession laws and customs which legitimize the claim to a throne are important only to adhere supporters to your cause. Once you are the despot, you are free to legitimize your claim by changing the laws, as Cersei has recently demonstrated. (Apparently Westeros generally follows English succession customs, which makes sense as it has been demonstrated (fewer, mountains) that they speak English there too.)

None of that is important to Daenerys politically or strategically since all significant elements of her power base are loyal to her person and consider her their legitimate ruler for reasons not having anything to do with Westeros political history.

On another note, anyone who thinks Dani's regard for Jon is platonic should watch the episode again, and pay attention to her face when Jon is present.

Also, Littlefinger's trap for Arya is so obvious that I suspect that it will turn she is the trapper, not the trappee. We'll have to see how that pans out.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

JFriday said:


> As good as last weeks episode was I was disappointed by this episode. I was distracted by the fact they just let Jaime swim away. So the leader of the opposing army is about to attack Dany and he gets knocked into the water by one of his men. So what do they do after that? Just watch him swim away? Assume he drowned? Does he swim underwater that whole way to the other side with armor and a gold hand? Why not have the dragon boil that water and make sure he's dead?


It is entirely possible that Dany simply did not see Bronn's rescue because of the large pillar of fire that was obstructing her view. She might have assumed that whoever that crazy guy on a horse was (how would she have known who it was given that he was covered in mud and soot), he was now just a pile of wet ashes. What they should have don, instead of showing Jaimie slowly sinking to the bottom, is a strong current pulling him downstream.

The bigger issue I have is with Tyrion. He *saw* Jaimie on the field. Did he see him charging Drogon? Not sure. If he didn't, then I guess we are to assume that he didn't find Jaimie on the field, and assumed he escaped.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

tomhorsley said:


> "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."
> 
> Speaking of Monty Python, did the guards trying to keep Arya out of Winterfell remind anyone of guards from Monty Python and the Holy Grail?


Maybe if they spoke with outrageous French accents.

"Fetchez la vache!"
"Quoi?"
"FETCHEZ LA VACHE!"
Moooo!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> But not the reason for him now as he has no clue that he is a rival.
> 
> I think he doesn't want to show weakness or have her denounce him as a zombie.
> 
> Let's see. A guy who returned from the dead via witchcraft is trying to convince you to battle an undead army.


He was only mostly dead.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> That doesn't matter. Certainly not to Dany. Her family's throne was usurped. It is, by rights, hers.


Sure. I understand why she would want the throne and why she thinks she's entitled to it. But she's not going to get onto the throne because everyone else is going to stand aside due to her superior claim. The only way she gets it is by overthrowing the current occupant of that chair. And at that point, she's the rightful queen by virtue of conquest. So whether Jon's claim is superior to hers shouldn't matter one iota.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

It does and will to her


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

wprager said:


> The bigger issue I have is with Tyrion. He *saw* Jaimie on the field. Did he see him charging Drogon? Not sure. If he didn't, then I guess we are to assume that he didn't find Jaimie on the field, and assumed he escaped.


Tyrion absolutely saw Jaimie charging Dany/Drogon. That's why we saw him (Tyrion) standing on the hill saying "Don't be an idiot! You're an idiot! etc., expletive, etc."


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> It does and will to her


Of course it matters to her. She believes the throne should be hers by right. But her opinion would only matter if everyone else agreed with her and Cersei simply stepped aside because she recognized Dany as the rightful ruler of Westeros. Since we all know that's not going to happen, then by the time Dany achieves that position, she will have done so through might and conquest. And the fact that Jon's claim may have at one time been superior to hers won't matter. She'll be queen because she won the war, not because of her name or who her father was.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's Robert's death by boar, I believe...


[Cersei]
"Appropriate, since Robert was always such a bore."
[/Cersei]



gossamer88 said:


> Not a book reader, but I remember him being kind of an a-hole.


Yeah, he was a real Dick on Sam.
(Bronn snickers)

I too was glad to see Gendry again and I liked how he introduced himself to Jon with Davros just rolling his eyes.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

wprager said:


> He was only mostly dead.


Which of course means slightly alive.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Another question: Why does it matter which of the Targaryens (Dany or Jon) has the more legitimate claim to the Iron Throne? The Targaryens lost their claim to the throne when they were defeated and deposed during Robert's Rebellion. If Dany builds an army and wins a war to depose the current monarch, then she would be the rightful queen, because at that point the throne would belong to whoever took it by might, not whoever was entitled by lineage.
> 
> I mean, isn't the Targaryen's claim to the throne based on them taking it in a war many centuries ago? So their claim is ultimately based on might, not birthright. And that would be the same with Dany, if she's the leader of the army that overthrows Cersei.


I don't think it's ever been mentioned on the show, but Robert's paternal Grandmother was a Targaryan. Her brother and sister were the Mad King's parents.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Of course it matters to her. She believes the throne should be hers by right. But her opinion would only matter if everyone else agreed with her and Cersei simply stepped aside because she recognized Dany as the rightful ruler of Westeros. Since we all know that's not going to happen, then by the time Dany achieves that position, she will have done so through might and conquest. And the fact that Jon's claim may have at one time been superior to hers won't matter. She'll be queen because she won the war, not because of her name or who her father was.


Well, Dany has made a point of mentioning that she is the last Targarian. This is the basis of her belief that the throne is hers by right. We don't know how she will react when/if she discovers that

a. She is not the last.
b. The other one has a higher claim than hers.

Complicating the matter is how righteous she is AND how she gets weak in the knees whenever Jon speaks or enters the room, and it's clear that Dany will have some things to think about before simply saying "I don't care, it's ME ME ME".


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Nobody has mentioned yet why it was important for Jamie to escape instead of getting captured and then returning with the offer of armistice from Dany: We had to have the ending scene of Cersei warning Jamie to never betray her again.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Nobody has mentioned yet why it was important for Jamie to escape instead of getting captured and then returning with the offer of armistice from Dany: We had to have the ending scene of Cersei warning Jamie to never betray her again.


Nah, it was more important for us to see how Jaime has lungs like a navy seal (and then some). Seriously, this little detail really bugs me. How Dany's army didn't pursue him just boggles my mind.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> We don't know how she will react when/if she discovers that


"If." Tee-hee. You're so naïve.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

goblue97 said:


> Nah, it was more important for us to see how Jaime has lungs like a navy seal (and then some). Seriously, this little detail really bugs me. How Dany's army didn't pursue him just boggles my mind.


Oh, believe me, my eyes rolled round and round in my head like a slot machine when they came out of the water with the smoke from the battle a mile away in the horizon!

All I'm saying is they needed Jaime not to get captured so they could have the scene with Cersei (Bronn might need to switch sides real soon!). Sure, I wish they had thought of a better way to have the dramatic ending for the previous episode AND for Jaime not to get captured. But they didn't!



Rob Helmerichs said:


> "If." Tee-hee. You're so naïve.


Agreed. I would have gone with...let's see...what's the word here...stupid?...that's the one!

I can't stop playing and replaying that youtube clip...I can't stop giggling like a little girl every. single. time. Peter Sellers was so awesome.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Anyone else think Tyrion may be a targarian too? (Didn't he "pet" one of the other dragons in the dongeon?)


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I saw this on philly.com:
> 
> _Having The Hound (Rory McCann) and Beric Dondarrion (Richard Dormer) join Jon's ragtag band of White Walker-seeking brothers - which already included Ser Jorah (Iain Glen) and Tormund Giantsbane (Kristofer Hivju) - felt like the first installment of the Westeros remake of The A-Team._


They should be called the D-Team.

Jon Snow - was dead
Beric Dondarrion - was dead
Sandor Clegane (The Hound) - was practically dead
Jorah Mormont - was almost mentally dead
Gendry - was scheduled to be dead
Thoros of Myr - brings people back from the dead. Plus, earlier on in his life he probably almost drank himself to death.
Tormund Giantsbane - not sure about him. I think he's the mole.

And maybe special guest star...

Benjen Stark - is undead? Kinda undead? One foot out of the grave?

Hopefully they don't end up bringing back a Trojan wight.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

MacThor said:


> Rhaegar "kidnapping" Lyanna Stark is what precipitated Robert's Rebellion. This is a BFD, especially to a maester-wannabe like Sam.


You bring up a good point that Sam fixing a big hole in the Citadel's official histories would likely score major brownie points with the maesters. But I think he is so focused on finding information about the White Walkers right now that, absent its relevance to someone he knows personally or in a position of power who might support him, he would only care about that information insofar as it would allow him to increase his status, and get access to additional books.

Part of me wonders how much of a secret it is within the Citadel, however. Was Gilly really the first person to have read that book? What if Archmaester Ebrose knew of that information, but was bound by an oath not to tell anyone?

When he saw how persistent and stubborn Sam was, perhaps he saw an opportunity to nudge him in the direction of finding the truth.



DevdogAZ said:


> Because he's already asking her to take a pretty big leap of faith to believe that an army of undead is marching on Westeros and poses a bigger threat than anything Cersei could muster. If she then finds out that he also claims to have died and been brought back to life, that may just be one step too far and suddenly Jon gets no dragonglass, no help, and perhaps she throws him in prison for trying to defraud her.


That was my thought too. He didn't want to appear any crazier than he already did. And he doesn't have the means nor the desire to prove that it worked on him. (But maybe Beric will be up for it if he and Thoros come back with Jon. )


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The only thing I really want by the last episode of this show is for Daenerys to open a can of dracarys on Cersei.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> The only thing I really want by the last episode of this show is for Daenerys to open a can of dracarys on Cersei.


Seems a little quick and easy.

I think I'd rather have one of the Starks handle her. Sansa and Arya have shown a penchant for payback.

I'd be happy with Jaime killing her as well.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> The only thing I really want by the last episode of this show is for Daenerys to open a can of dracarys on Cersei.


Cersei being pregnant really puts a damper on the "Jaime kills Cersei" theory; something I have expected with near-certainty. OTOH, it would make it much more dramatic!


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Any chance Bronn-Bronn switches to Team Daenerys in the near future?


----------



## Howie (May 3, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> The only thing I really want by the last episode of this show is for Daenerys to open a can of dracarys on Cersei.


I'd like to see her get the gold crown like Dany's brother got.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Cersei being pregnant really puts a damper on the "Jaime kills Cersei" theory; something I have expected with near-certainty. OTOH, it would make it much more dramatic!


Although she must be pretty far along. By my calculations, an army train would take about 5 weeks to get to Highgarden. That's ten weeks there and back. Then it would take several weeks or months to sail from Dragonstone to Eastwatch. So she should already be at least 3-4 months gone. At the rate they're burning time, she could easily pop by the end of this season.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Or maybe when she doesn't start showing, she'll admit to Jaime that she was just lying to him to ensure his loyalty and that will be the final impetus for him to wring her neck.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Oh, Dany is falling head over heels...and Tyrion sees it...


As many wise men know, the way to a woman's heart is to have her pets (and/or children) like you.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Assuming the scroll had the information about who he was remarried to. I would assume it would, but I'd also assume that Gilly would know who house Stark is and I'd expect that if she saw the Stark name mentioned there she would have persisted in telling Sam even after he rudely cut her off.
> 
> Edit: however, I think the important thing is that Sam knows Rhaegar's marriage was annulled and him remaried. Bran's vision can provide all the info necessary. It seems like he knows everything that's happened, even down to the details of Sansa rape and the words that Littlefinger spoke to Varys in an insignificant private conversation, so I'm sure Bran know about both the lineage and the annulment/remarriage. Sam merely needs to be able to say "wait, Bran isn't just making this up...I can prove that really did happen".


So does head chief honcho maester know that the news of R+L = J was in that work he gave to Sam?

If so, uh... why didn't he just go get it? So I guess not, eh?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> Why don't the men in the north wear hats? I expect them to start doing the Safety Dance.


Yet the wildlings wear hoods. That makes me laugh every time: we see who has some actual sense w/r/t winter weather.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Plus, as Kronos points out, Rhaegar's line takes precedence even if Dany counts because he's her older brother.
> 
> With this information (that Rhaegar's first marriage was annulled and he then married Lyanna), Jon's claim becomes indisputable. The only problem is proving it to Dany. And that can be taken care of with a combination of Gilly's document and Bran's vision (assuming he can take her back the way Max von Sydow took Bran back). Once she knows who he is, I suspect her sense of fairness will force her to deal with him, well, fairly.


Does a document and a vision hold up in court?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Dany _has _been persistently interested in Davos's slip about the knife to the heart...
> 
> But she doesn't strike me as the type who would, in the end, allow her claim to the throne to rest on a technicality. Tyrion might argue strongly for it, and she might listen for a while, but ultimately I think a deal is in the works (Jon's recognition of and support for her in exchange for the North's independence in some fashion).


Or she just kills Jon. She basically killed her brother.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Or she just kills Jon. She basically killed her brother.


But he deserved it. And she's starting to realize that Jon doesn't.

I think her innate sense of fairness will ultimately preclude her putting Jon aside when she knows he's the rightful heir (although I suspect it will be a struggle to get there...they're been emphasizing her dual nature, having both a deep-rooted sense of fairness and compassion, and a very violent temper). It won't matter whether it can be proven in a court of law, as ling as she knows it to be true. She and he will come to some kind of agreement. I'd say again what my theory as to the nature of that agreement will be, but I've said it often enough and I'm getting tired of Anubys mocking me for it.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> So does head chief honcho maester know that the news of R+L = J was in that work he gave to Sam?
> 
> If so, uh... why didn't he just go get it? So I guess not, eh?


I don't think so. It was buried in a book of trivial information from a maester who most ignored because of his triviality. It is clear from most of Sam's interaction with the maesters that they think they already know all there is to know and make fun of previous maesters.

Also, Sam wasn't ignoring Gilly. He was ignoring and making fun of the information in the book. It was mostly tedious after a long period of tedium where he was at the point of giving up.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

My sister just told me that the the actress playing Cersei and the actor playing Bronn were a couple in real life and had a terrible breakup. When they were asked to be on GOT, they both wrote it in their contracts that they are never to be in the same scene together.

is my sister full of crap or is this true?

That might explain why Cersei asked Jaime if he's going to punish Bronn!


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But he deserved it. And she's starting to realize that Jon doesn't.
> 
> I think her innate sense of fairness will ultimately preclude her putting Jon aside when she knows he's the rightful heir (although I suspect it will be a struggle to get there...they're been emphasizing her dual nature, having both a deep-rooted sense of fairness and compassion, and a very violent temper). It won't matter whether it can be proven in a court of law, as ling as she knows it to be true. She and he will come to some kind of agreement. I'd say again what my theory as to the nature of that agreement will be, but I've said it often enough and I'm getting tired of Anubys mocking me for it.


I don't subscribe to the idea she has a violent temper. Everything she has done has been measured and planned. Nothing has been in a rage that she regretted later. Everyone cheered when she decimated the slave masters yet when she executes an enemy after giving them a choice, that is temper?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> Here's a dumb theory: Jamie didn't drown because Bronn is a disciple of the drowned god.


If there's a fire god, there would logically be a water god.

Neptune, Poseidon, Lady of the Lake, Aquaman, Pamela Anderson, Spongebob Squidpants... something?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

There is a water god. The Drowned God. Euron drowned and came back to life. That's the prerequisite for being the leader of the Iron Islands.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> I don't think so. It was buried in a book of trivial information from a maester who most ignored because of his triviality. It is clear from most of Sam's interaction with the maesters that they think they already know all there is to know and make fun of previous maesters.


And also that just gives them the marriage, not the parentage. The problem is nobody has both pieces of the puzzle yet.


TonyD79 said:


> I don't subscribe to the idea she has a violent temper. Everything she has done has been measured and planned. Nothing has been in a rage that she regretted later. Everyone cheered when she decimated the slave masters yet when she executes an enemy after giving them a choice, that is temper?


Well, she had to be talked out of burning King's Landing to the ground...


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Anubys said:


> My sister just told me that the the actress playing Cersei and the actor playing Bronn were a couple in real life and had a terrible breakup. When they were asked to be on GOT, they both wrote it in their contracts that they are never to be in the same scene together.
> 
> is my sister full of crap or is this true?
> 
> That might explain why Cersei asked Jaime if he's going to punish Bronn!


Don't know about anything written into their contracts, but the rest appears true.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> Yeah, I'm not thinking this ends well for him.
> 
> As for Jon not telling, would you tell someone the God of Light raised you from the dead? I doubt it.  He has no clue Dany can't be killed by fire.


I think Arya is a bit too new to her powers and a bit too full of herself. My money is on Littlefinger, unless outside forces come into play.

Wouldn't Jon (and most everyone else) have heard the stories of Dany surviving multiple fires? Isn't that in her Starbucks coffee cup title somewhere? Unburnt?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> There is a water god. The Drowned God. Euron drowned and came back to life. That's the prerequisite for being the leader of the Iron Islands.


I meant a real one.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Can someone please explain the Davos/Gendry connection? I sense they hung out some in previous seasons but I don't quite have the full story.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Can someone please explain the Davos/Gendry connection? I sense they hung out some in previous seasons but I don't quite have the full story.


Gendry was with the Brotherhood without Banners. Mellisandre showed up and they handed Gendry over to her. She took him back to stannis. They did some ritual to use his blood (since it was the kings bloodline) to put out the curse that supposedly killed the 3 usurpers (Joffrey, Robb, and Greyjoy). I believe they were going to use him for more, which probably including killing Gendry. Davos told Stannis it wasn't right and then one night Davos set Gendry free in a rowboat. That's why Stannis threw Davos in jail. It's also why Davos made the joke about Gendry still rowing (which was a joke made by the fans, since the last we saw of Gendry 4 seasons ago was him going off in a rowboat)


----------



## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

uncdrew said:


> I meant a real one.


If the Drowned God is not the real water god then who is the real Fire God?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

dwatt said:


> If the Drowned God is not the real water god then who is the real Fire God?


Alec Baldwin?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

dwatt said:


> If the Drowned God is not the real water god then who is the real Fire God?


The Lord of Light brought Jon back from death several days later. That's true god-power there, even by modern medical standards. The Drowned "God"???? Oh wow....he knows CPR. At best, he's a Minor Deity with lifeguard certification.


----------



## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

"Listen to me-- I once told Bronn that if I ever saw you again, I'd cut you in half."

"It'll take you a while with a sparring sword."


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

wprager said:


> If it was Rhaegar he may have paid attention. But he doesn't care about any "Ragger" getting his marriage annulled.


 This. Gilly's pronunciation was so terrible that I doubt Sam realized who she was talking about. If he had I'm sure he would have been interested, even if he didn't connect Jon to the story (which he definitely would not have without more background)... the last Targaryen lord putting aside his wife and secretly marrying someone else? Of course he would be interested.

But, some random guy named "Ragger"? Not so much.

And of course Gilly, living her life north of the wall, would have no idea who any of these people were or why they would be interesting.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Gendry was with the Brotherhood without Banners. Mellisandre showed up and they handed Gendry over to her. She took him back to stannis. They did some ritual to use his blood (since it was the kings bloodline) to put out the curse that supposedly killed the 3 usurpers (Joffrey, Robb, and Greyjoy). I believe they were going to use him for more, which probably including killing Gendry. Davos told Stannis it wasn't right and then one night Davos set Gendry free in a rowboat. That's why Stannis threw Davos in jail. It's also why Davos made the joke about Gendry still rowing (which was a joke made by the fans, since the last we saw of Gendry 4 seasons ago was him going off in a rowboat)


Thanks. That's all slowly coming back to me.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

dwatt said:


> If the Drowned God is not the real water god then who is the real Fire God?


I've seen evidence of the Fire God. I haven't seen evidence of this Drowned God. Have I?

Euron spitting up some water isn't quite enough for me.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, she had to be talked out of burning King's Landing to the ground...


That was tactical. It wasn't that something just pissed her off and she greeted it with fire and fury. She thought she needed to escalate because her tactics were losing.

She told as much to Jon on her final decision.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Dawghows said:


> Tyrion absolutely saw Jaimie charging Dany/Drogon. That's why we saw him (Tyrion) standing on the hill saying "Don't be an idiot! You're an idiot! etc., expletive, etc."


He also knew he survived and was back at Kings Landing, he went there to try to convince him the White Walkers were real.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

dcheesi said:


> I predicted something similar, though I'll admit I was expecting it to be one of the other dragons (which he would eventually end up riding).


I kept mishearing the one dragon's name as "Rhaegar_"_, not "Rhaegal" and thinking that of course somehow the dragon (not actually, as it turns out) named after Jon's real father would end up in the North fighting the army of the dead with him.



DevdogAZ said:


> But the Targaryen's claim to the throne ended when Robert overthrew Aerys. It shouldn't matter anymore which Targaryen would have been the rightful heir to the throne 30 years before. It's a new day and a new dynasty and it can start with anyone.


Tell that to Charles II of England. Being able to claim that the rebellion was an aberration and you're resuming the rightful (and hopefully peaceful and just) rule of the kingdom can be a powerful psychological advantage to stabilize the throne, especially in the immediate aftermath of the transition. Being able to claim that you didn't seize a kingdom by conquest but instead finally put down the dastardly rebellion that ousted the rightful rules and brought strife and ruin to the kingdom isn't a small thing.

(And when contrasted to two fairly short lived lines that each took the throne by force Robert, Joffrey, Tommen then Cersei. and then proceeded to let things got to hell through neglect or mismanagement...)


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> That was tactical. It wasn't that something just pissed her off and she greeted it with fire and fury. She thought she needed to escalate because her tactics were losing.
> 
> She told as much to Jon on her final decision.


Call me quirky, but I think being willing to murder thousands of innocent people because you aren't getting your way displays a serious temperament problem...


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Tell that to Charles II of England. Being able to claim that the rebellion was an aberration and you're resuming the rightful (and hopefully peaceful and just) rule of the kingdom can be a powerful psychological advantage to stabilize the throne, especially in the immediate aftermath of the transition. Being able to claim that you didn't seize a kingdom by conquest but instead finally put down the dastardly rebellion that ousted the rightful rules and brought strife and ruin to the kingdom isn't a small thing.
> 
> (And when contrasted to two fairly short lived lines that each took the throne by force Robert, Joffrey, Tommen then Cersei. and then proceeded to let things got to hell through neglect or mismanagement...)


The problem there is that when people think "Targaryen", they think of the Mad King who burned his enemies with dragonfire. Bloodline notwithstanding, Dany has a long way to go to get people's trust. OTOH, the fact that she's displacing Cersei should be a big point in her favor.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Took a while for Cersei's *alleged* pregnancy to show up in this thread. Guess the episode was full of other stuff to talk about. Interesting how Jaimie asked if it was his. He knows the last time he slept with here -- would have been months or hours, no? She should either be showing *A LOT* or he should not really be questioning the parentage.

There were a couple of throw-away lines as Same left the other maesters. One was about a book by/about "Jenny of Oldstones" who claimed she descended from the Children of the Forest. I wonder if that's one of the books Sam took with him. The other was about someone named "Lodos", who claimed he was a descendant of the Drowned God. I wonder if either of these two throwaway lines will figure in the story.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

wprager said:


> Interesting how Jaimie asked if it was his.


He didn't ask that, though.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

To be fair, we don't know how long ago the Battle of the Loot Train was...the way time passes on this show, it could've been a month...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BrettStah said:


> He didn't ask that, though.


I thought he did...


----------



## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I thought he did...


He asked who she was going to say the father was.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

realityboy said:


> He asked who she was going to say the father was.


Yep!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

realityboy said:


> He asked who she was going to say the father was.


Ah...I didn't get that...it did seem strange and Cersei wasn't angry at the question...that makes a lot more sense.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Call me quirky, but I think being willing to murder thousands of innocent people because you aren't getting your way displays a serious temperament problem...


Truman had a temperament problem?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> To be fair, we don't know how long ago the Battle of the Loot Train was...the way time passes on this show, it could've been a month...


I heard someone on a podcast speculate that from the time we saw Jaime and Cersei sleeping together, there has been enough travel done that if she were really pregnant from that time, she should already be showing. For example, since that episode, we've had Jaime lead an army against Highgarden, and then after winning that battle, he spent another week or more supervising the gathering of food from the Reach. So that whole process of marching an army from King's Landing to Highgarden, and then most of the way back before being attacked by a dragon would have taken several weeks. Then after that battle, Tyrion and the Dothraki had to return to Dragonstone. Then Davos had to row from Dragonstone to King's Landing and back. And then after he returned, Jon and Co. had to sail from Dragonstone up to Eastwatch. So if we're talking about realistic travel times, it's been at least three months since we saw Cersei and Jaime in bed together.


----------



## Howie (May 3, 2004)

Maybe birthin' them babies takes more than 9 months in their world.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> <snip>So if we're talking about realistic travel times, it's been at least three months since we saw Cersei and Jaime in bed together.


True, but tons of women don't show much at all in three months. Regardless, I'm with those who think Cersei is making it up to tie Jamie to her.

tta


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Howie said:


> Maybe birthin' them babies takes more than 9 months in their world.


I don't know nothin' 'bout birthin' babies


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

What if ...

Jamie & Cersie's baby falls into the hands of the Night King?

dun dun dun!!!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tivotvaddict said:


> True, but tons of women don't show much at all in three months. Regardless, I'm with those who think Cersei is making it up to tie Jamie to her.
> 
> tta


Agreed. I'd say that most women likely aren't showing that early. The podcast I was referring to speculated that it had been closer to 4-5 months in show time since that incident, but as I typed out the actual things that happened since then, I decided I couldn't substantiate it being that long.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Agreed. I'd say that most women likely aren't showing that early. The podcast I was referring to speculated that it had been closer to 4-5 months in show time since that incident, but as I typed out the actual things that happened since then, I decided I couldn't substantiate it being that long.


Going to guess it's the RHAP post show recaps... haven't listened to this week's yet but if I remember correctly we're both fans from Survivor and/or Big Brother. 

tta


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

wprager said:


> Took a while for Cersei's *alleged* pregnancy to show up in this thread. Guess the episode was full of other stuff to talk about.


Sorry it took so long. I tried to post sooner but 6 people got in on this thread before me. But thanks for noticing 154 posts later.
Game of Thrones 8/13/17 "Eastwatch"


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tivotvaddict said:


> Going to guess it's the RHAP post show recaps... haven't listened to this week's yet but if I remember correctly we're both fans from Survivor and/or Big Brother.
> 
> tta


Yes, it probably was. Because I haven't gotten to A Cast of Kings for this episode yet. But just to be clear, I'm a fan of Survivor and The Amazing Race, but I've never seen an episode of Big Brother.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> What if ...
> 
> Jamie & Cersie's baby falls into the hands of the Night King?


I don't think that will happen. That witch only foresaw her having 3 kids. That tells me either she's making it up, or she'll either die or miscarry before giving birth. My money is on Cersei dying first.


----------



## Howie (May 3, 2004)

ct1 said:


> I don't know nothin' 'bout birthin' babies


I knew somebody would get that.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, it probably was. Because I haven't gotten to A Cast of Kings for this episode yet. But just to be clear, I'm a fan of Survivor and The Amazing Race, but I've never seen an episode of Big Brother.


After this season, I may never watch another. 

Back on thread: I enjoy hearing Rob and Stephen discuss the episodes as they always bring up something I haven't thought of or seen other places.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Want to make your own Game of Thrones cape|?

First by a rug from Ikea, then follow the pattern.
IKEA Releases Instructions How To Make 'Game Of Thrones' Cape After Costumer Reveals Actors Wore IKEA Rugs


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

tivotvaddict said:


> True, but tons of women don't show much at all in three months. Regardless, I'm with those who think Cersei is making it up to tie Jamie to her.
> 
> tta


Not when it's their fourth (fifth?) pregnancy.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> Sorry it took so long. I tried to post sooner but 6 people got in on this thread before me. But thanks for noticing 154 posts later.
> Game of Thrones 8/13/17 "Eastwatch"


You know someone has to mention it, then someone else has to comment on it, and then there is a discussion that ensues. It's like in official meetings someone has to put forth a motion, another has to second it, then the vote.
Or maybe my eyesight and attention span are getting worse with age.


----------



## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

FYI,

Episode 6 has been leaked early. Audio sounds hollow. Video quality is ok but has a watermark.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I heard someone on a podcast speculate that from the time we saw Jaime and Cersei sleeping together, there has been enough travel done that if she were really pregnant from that time, she should already be showing. For example, since that episode, we've had Jaime lead an army against Highgarden, and then after winning that battle, he spent another week or more supervising the gathering of food from the Reach. So that whole process of marching an army from King's Landing to Highgarden, and then most of the way back before being attacked by a dragon would have taken several weeks. Then after that battle, Tyrion and the Dothraki had to return to Dragonstone. Then Davos had to row from Dragonstone to King's Landing and back. And then after he returned, Jon and Co. had to sail from Dragonstone up to Eastwatch. So if we're talking about realistic travel times, it's been at least three months since we saw Cersei and Jaime in bed together.


There's no reason to think that the last time we saw them together was the last time they were together. These are the same people who arrived at Winterfell and immediately headed for an abandoned tower where they could be together after a long trip up the King's Road.

They probably had sex within a day of his return to King's Landing. If his meeting with Tyrion was a few weeks after his return to the capital, they've likely been together many times since then.

When Jaime walks into Cersei's room after his meeting with Tyrion, you can hear Qyburn say that he can give Cersei something to take and she says it won't be necessary. That could either be the end of a conversation where she tells Qyburn she is pregnant and he's offering to give her something that would cause a miscarriage; or she could be telling him that she wants to get pregnant and he offers to mix a concoction that will help her conceive.

If she actually is pregnant (which I wouldn't bet on), she's not necessarily that far along when she tells Jaime.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

And that was my original point. Jaime could've been back from the battle with Dany for a month or more...So Cersei would've just missed her very first period and she is only 4-6 weeks pregnant. Qyburn asks if she wants to abort and she says no.


----------



## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

Malcontent said:


> FYI,
> 
> Episode 6 has been leaked early. Audio sounds hollow. Video quality is ok but has a watermark.


Looks like there is also a 1080p copy with better audio. The audio is in stereo (aac), not 5.1. Video is in a flv container. There is no watermark.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Qyburn asks if she wants to abort and she says no.


Or he could have been saying he could give her something for morning sickness.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> And that was my original point. Jaime could've been back from the battle with Dany for a month or more...So Cersei would've just missed her very first period and she is only 4-6 weeks pregnant. Qyburn asks if she wants to abort and she says no.


Men have certainly done more than ride a horse 200 miles to have sex... He might have returned during the siege of House Tyrell between innings.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

For the record, I think she's pregnant.

She's obviously fertile, she obviously has sex, and I really think her main goal in life is ruling Westeros and I assume she really wants an heir. I think the most Ockham Razory thing is that she's actually pregnant.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Malcontent said:


> Looks like there is also a 1080p copy with better audio. The audio is in stereo (aac), not 5.1. Video is in a flv container. There is no watermark.


HBO Spain supposedly aired the episode accidentally. I'm not quite sure how that happened but this leak is completely unrelated to the HBO hack. That last leaked episode had record viewership. We'll see if the leak has any impact on this one.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> For the record, I think she's pregnant.
> 
> She's obviously fertile, she obviously has sex, and I really think her main goal in life is ruling Westeros and I assume she really wants an heir. I think the most Ockham Razory thing is that she's actually pregnant.


I agree. She doesn't need to manipulate Jaime in this fashion. Any sane guy would have bolted screaming a long time ago. The man clearly loves her.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Are we allowed to discuss the leaked episode around here?


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Are we allowed to discuss the leaked episode around here?


Technically no. You aren't even supposed to start a thread until one hour before it airs.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Are we allowed to discuss the leaked episode around here?


So tempting. Must resist...


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Yeah, it's going to be hard. No spoiler tags, even?


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Yeah, it's going to be hard. No spoiler tags, even?


I'm sure there are a hundred other places on the internet you can do that.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Yeah, it's going to be hard. No spoiler tags, even?


are you trying to zoom us?

just in case: No. This is a thread for this episode. Feel free to start a thread for the next episode for all those who stole it and watched it early!

Edited to add: and enjoy your vacation from TCF once you're banned


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Yeah, it's going to be hard. No spoiler tags, even?


It's being discussed in this reddit thread. 

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252Fasoiaf%252Fcomments%252F6ty9w9%252F


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Keep spoilers beyond this episode out, please.

I know some of the mobile reading apps or the like don't properly work with the spoiler tag. Don't ruin it for anyone.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Yeah, it's going to be hard. No spoiler tags, even?


Please don't.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

ClutchBrake said:


> Keep spoilers beyond this episode out, please.
> 
> I know some of the mobile reading apps or the like don't properly work with the spoiler tag. Don't ruin it for anyone.


I agree. The scope of this thread is pretty clear, Season 7, Episode 5, "Eastwatch."


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Obviously I wasn't going to post anything in this thread. I was just asking if leaked episode threads are allowed in NP.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

wprager said:


> Not when it's their fourth (fifth?) pregnancy.


Fifth. She had a baby by Robert and he died.

And yes, you show earlier with each subsequent pregnancy. But with the way time passes on this show I think she really is pregnant.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

My guess is that she's pregnant, but either it won't live, or she won't.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> Fifth. She had a baby by Robert and he died.
> 
> And yes, you show earlier with each subsequent pregnancy. But with the way time passes on this show I think she really is pregnant.


While there was nothing in the show that hinted at this, and I have not read the books, I'm putting my money on Cersei killing Robert's baby. A boy, heir to the throne, that wasn't a Lannister/Jaime's? no way. She killed him.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> While there was nothing in the show that hinted at this, and I have not read the books, I'm putting my money on Cersei killing Robert's baby. A boy, heir to the throne, that wasn't a Lannister/Jaime's? no way. She killed him.


Weren't we led to believe she had real affection at one point for Robert? Before the supposed miscarriage?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Weren't we led to believe she had real affection at one point for Robert? Before the supposed miscarriage?


I think it was before they married...i.e., before she got to know him.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I found this to be interesting since I have a crappy memory and didn't read the books.

Edited to add: _Maybe minor spoilers_

*Why Gendry's Return to Game of Thrones Is Such a Big Deal*


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Are there spoilers at that link (info from anything other than the episodes that have aired on HBO)?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> Are there spoilers at that link (info from anything other than the episodes that have aired on HBO)?


The only two minor things that reference to anything that wasn't shown in the show are:


Spoiler



1. That Robert Baratheon used a warhammer and used it to kill Rhaegar Targaryen (Jon's father)
2. That Valyrian steel can only be created with magic and dragonfire.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Weren't we led to believe she had real affection at one point for Robert? Before the supposed miscarriage?


As Rob has mentioned, I seem to recall something about this when she and Robert talked openly about their relationship. I think she mentioned something about him wishing for Lyanna on their wedding night (or something along these lines). So the bloom was off that rose real quick. Certainly by the time she carries and gives birth.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Part of me wonders how much of a secret it is within the Citadel, however. Was Gilly really the first person to have read that book? What if Archmaester Ebrose knew of that information, but was bound by an oath not to tell anyone?


The Maester's gather information. It's not clear to me if they care about _distributing_ information.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think her innate sense of fairness will ultimately preclude her putting Jon aside when she knows he's the rightful heir (although I suspect it will be a struggle to get there...they're been emphasizing her dual nature, having both a deep-rooted sense of fairness and compassion, and a very violent temper). It won't matter whether it can be proven in a court of law, as ling as she knows it to be true. She and he will come to some kind of agreement. I'd say again what my theory as to the nature of that agreement will be, but I've said it often enough and I'm getting tired of Anubys mocking me for it.


Perhaps we should ask what exactly "Breaking the Wheel" means. Could she just intend to enforce seven separate kingdoms? ("_Don't make me turn this dragon around and come back here._") Either way (that or letting Jon have it), she'll have plenty to do on the East Side.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I found this to be interesting since I have a crappy memory and didn't read the books.
> 
> Edited to add: _Maybe minor spoilers_
> 
> *Why Gendry's Return to Game of Thrones Is Such a Big Deal*


I kind of like the featured comment

_Gendry is just another set of arms now. His backstory is an artifact of when the show was trying to follow the books, and they needed a Baratheon bastard for Melisandre's king's blood magic. In the books, she was going to use another of Robert's bastards who was living on Dragonstone, but the show composited the two characters, then had Davos send him off rowing because they had written themselves into a corner.

Now, they're just trying to pay off the character, so don't expect him to play any significant role beyond being part of the Magnificent Seven Beyond The Wall._

Interesting discussion on one of the podcasts this week about directors. Since the show is filmed in many different locations and those locations appear most weeks, I had overlooked the fact that all, for example, outdoor scenes at Dragonstone were probably filmed at one time. Since a lot of the show is like that they were pondering how much an episode director really does. They talked about the jetting off to each location but that makes no sense since the actors have to be in different places for their scenes. So if you have 4 (or so) directors this season, were they all really in one location to film some specific scenes for their episode?

They also talked about how unhappy they are with acceleration of the show. I can see that. They are cramming 4-5 standard seasons into 2 shorts ones and it's really starting to show.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JohnB1000 said:


> Interesting discussion on one of the podcasts this week about directors. Since the show is filmed in many different locations and those locations appear most weeks, I had overlooked the fact that all, for example, outdoor scenes at Dragonstone were probably filmed at one time. Since a lot of the show is like that they were pondering how much an episode director really does. They talked about the jetting off to each location but that makes no sense since the actors have to be in different places for their scenes. So if you have 4 (or so) directors this season, were they all really in one location to film some specific scenes for their episode?


No, the logistics of filming the show are extremely complicated. There is filming going on simultaneously in multiple locations. Each location has a full crew and extras and everything. And most of the actors stay in the same location most of the time. Generally the directors direct two episodes per season. So if Director A is directing episodes 1 and 2, and each of them have scenes at Winterfell, then they would schedule those Winterfell scenes from 1 and 2 to be filmed all together over the course of several days or week or so, then Director A would leave and go to Croatia to film all the King's Landing scenes in episodes 1 and 2, etc. Meanwhile, Director B would come to Winterfell and film the Winterfell scenes for episodes 3 and 4, etc.

The directors don't shoot every frame of the episodes they direct. Due to scheduling or for convenience, they may have one of the other directors or a second unit crew shoot some short scene(s) that they couldn't get to. But for the most part, the director whose name is on the episode was in each of those locations filming those scenes.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Did you directly quote the transcript of the podcast?

It seems really odd that you might have 6 scenes in one location, spread across 6 EPs, with a common theme but different people fly in to direct them. Then you have a character like Jaime in multiple locations with the director flying in to film his scenes.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I found this to be interesting since I have a crappy memory and didn't read the books.
> 
> Edited to add: _Maybe minor spoilers_
> 
> *Why Gendry's Return to Game of Thrones Is Such a Big Deal*


While they might be right about Gendry's role, Tobho Mott was not the one who reforged Ice, at least not on the TV show. The blacksmith was someone from Volantis.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Obviously I wasn't going to post anything in this thread. I was just asking if leaked episode threads are allowed in NP.


Please don't. I remember when a few shows would air an episode early, in a "special manner". Maybe on Demand, or something like that. The threads became a convoluted fustercluck. People posting based on the early viewing, pages of posts, then people would come in to the thread when it actually aired, and they were smeeking like crazy. It wasn't much fun.

Just wait until Sunday. Please.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> While they might be right about Gendry's role, Tobho Mott was not the one who reforged Ice, at least not on the TV show. The blacksmith was someone from Volantis.


I don't know who Tobho Mott is, but I do recall Tywin saying he brought 1 of 2 specialists left in the world from Volantis to forge the 2 swords.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tobho Mott was Gendry's boss in the blacksmith shop when we first met him.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I don't know who Tobho Mott is, but I do recall Tywin saying he brought 1 of 2 specialists left in the world from Volantis to forge the 2 swords.


According to Tywin, there were only 3 specialists left in the world who could reforge Valyrian steel. And he brought in the best one. Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't others who aren't known, including, I suppose, Tobho Mott. But I would think knowing how to do that would be something you would advertise, as it would indicate your skill.

Regarding the books:

(Spoilerized in case anyone wants to avoid all information from the books. But there's no future information here, only comparisons to the show.)



Spoiler



From Tobho Mott:


> In the A Song of Ice and Fire novels, Tobho Mott is a native of the Free City of Qohor who learned to smith there, including the working of the fabled Valyrian steel. He moved to Westeros when younger and has successfully built up his own business thanks to his formidable skills. His armory is a large building at the top of the Street of Steel, impressive in size and outfittings.
> 
> When Eddard Stark asked Mott who paid him Gendry's apprentice fee, Mott answered evasively, but eventually admitted it was a mysterious lord who did not identify himself that paid him both the apprentice fee and to keep his mouth shut about the youth.
> 
> ...


So in the books it is, in fact, Mott who reforges Ice. But we don't know much about the Mott in the show.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

!!!!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Holy crap, that's Bronn!

Now I won't be able to watch GoT without expecting him to start singing and dancing...


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Holy crap, that's Bronn!
> 
> Now I won't be able to watch GoT without expecting him to start singing and dancing...


i personally would love to see it, but not sure there are enough bronn got eps left, now that he's given jamie his three-dragon two-week notice.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JohnB1000 said:


> Did you directly quote the transcript of the podcast?
> 
> It seems really odd that you might have 6 scenes in one location, spread across 6 EPs, with a common theme but different people fly in to direct them. Then you have a character like Jaime in multiple locations with the director flying in to film his scenes.


No, I didn't quote anything. What I posted is what I've learned from listening to and reading multiple sources over the years. I suspect the issue you raised is why they have each director do two episodes per season, usually two back-to-back episodes.

I'm sure there is some cooperation among the directors, and if Director A has a short scene with two characters talking and it's the only instance of that location appearing in either of his episodes, they'll probably schedule a different director who has more scenes at that location to pick it up. But most of the scenes you see in any given episode were directed on location by the person whose name is credited as the director of that episode.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I did hear that this next episode is awesome. Hope that's not a spoiler.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> I did hear that this next episode is awesome. Hope that's not a spoiler.


I just watched it



Spoiler



!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I did hear that this next episode is awesome. Hope that's not a spoiler.


It's also the longest episode in GoT history, at over 70 minutes. But it will only hold that honor for a few days, because the season finale is over 80 minutes.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> It's also the longest episode in GoT history, at over 70 minutes. But it will only hold that honor for a few days, because the season finale is over 80 minutes.


Actually, it's "only" 66 minutes...


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Please no more about the leaked episode.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

pendragn said:


> Please no more about the leaked episode.


Yeah, what the hell, folks... wrong thread, wrong forum.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

I've already been borderline spoiled in two other boards. Clam up for the love of mike, it's only three days away.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Saturn_V said:


> I've already been borderline spoiled in two other boards. Clam up for the love of mike, it's only three days away.


I'm avoiding the internet, basically, since I heard about the leak...but even here, people just can't help themselves..."oooh...I know something you don't...I saw it first..."

Jeez...who gives a crap...good for you...it's not like you discovered Atlantis...


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I'm avoiding the internet, basically, since I heard about the leak...but even here, people just can't help themselves..."oooh...I know something you don't...I saw it first..."


Basically like was the first 4 seasons with the book readers.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Seriously? You people think the length is a spoiler? That didn't even come from the leaked episode. That's been provided by HBO PR. To be clear, I have zero knowledge about the next episode. I haven't even seen the "Next time on..." for it.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

I don't think that was the post that was the main issue - but I'm not sure what's so difficult to comprehend - nothing about future episodes should be discussed in threads about existing episodes. That is pretty simple. Don't post info about "previously on...", don't post director info, or title, or episode length, or anything about actors and whether they're in or not in the episode, etc. While some things about the future episode may very well be non-spoilery to you, me, and almost everyone else, it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to figure out what is or isn't a spoiler, when simply not posting anything about the upcoming episodes automatically avoids all spoilers.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Seriously? You people think the length is a spoiler? That didn't even come from the leaked episode. That's been provided by HBO PR. To be clear, I have zero knowledge about the next episode. I haven't even seen the "Next time on..." for it.


Yeah, but I could see someone talking about the length, then blurting out "and this happens at the end of it". The length isn't a spoiler, but the more people talk about the leaks, the more likely something that IS a spoiler will leak out.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> It's also the longest episode in GoT history, at over 70 minutes. But it will only hold that honor for a few days, because the season finale is over 80 minutes.


That makes me happy.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Did the people that are so adverse to spoilers ever get the TV Guide as a kid. I know the first thing I did when it came in was to read the synopsis of all my favorite shows. Maybe that's why I don't care about spoilers.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

It's funny how excited everyone gets when I didn't see a single thing that could be considered a spoiler. Maybe I missed it.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

JFriday said:


> Did the people that are so adverse to spoilers ever get the TV Guide as a kid. I know the first thing I did when it came in was to read the synopsis of all my favorite shows. Maybe that's why I don't care about spoilers.


tv guide, then the on-screen guide - i always look ahead.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

JFriday said:


> Did the people that are so adverse to spoilers ever get the TV Guide as a kid. I know the first thing I did when it came in was to read the synopsis of all my favorite shows. Maybe that's why I don't care about spoilers.





NorthAlabama said:


> tv guide, then the on-screen guide - i always look ahead.


That's great, and there's absolutely nothing wrong doing that - some people watch "Next time on..." previews, too. Nothing wrong with that either.

It's just not an appropriate discussion topic for a thread about a different episode.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

...and it has been mentioned MANY times that e-mails, for example, do not have spoiler tags. So if someone puts something about the leaked episode in spoiler text (which happened here), it is very possible to read it in your email by accident.

I just don't get the need to do these type of things. I just bought an expensive car, for example, and more than one person made it a point to tell me how much pleasure I should have because I'll be the first person in my area to be driving that model. Maybe I'm missing some sort of male gene, but I still don't get why that would be something that should bring me any pleasure/pride.


----------



## Howie (May 3, 2004)

I can wait. I hate the aholes that steal these shows. I'm not going to do anything to encourage them.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Howie said:


> I can wait. I hate the aholes that steal these shows. I'm not going to do anything to encourage them.


Well, in this case nobody "stole" anything. HBO Spain accidentally released the wrong episode.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Then someone downloaded and shared it.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

We're going to be out of episodes soon enough. I don't need to rush it.


----------



## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I just don't get the need to do these type of things. I just bought an expensive car, for example, and more than one person made it a point to tell me how much pleasure I should have because I'll be the first person in my area to be driving that model. Maybe I'm missing some sort of male gene, but I still don't get why that would be something that should bring me any pleasure/pride.


It's the whole "being ahead of the curve". One of the biggest reasons anyone would volunteer to be a beta tester for a product/software.

If you could get an iPhone 9, or a Samsung Galaxy 9, or next gen Tivo etc, now, before anyone else, you wouldn't be tempted?

It's one of the reasons I go a TiVo way back when they first came out, and had a ReplayTV before that.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I watched the leaked episode not to be ahead of the curve, but because I hang out at enough geeky web sites that it might be difficult to avoid spoilers.

But since I watched it, here I even stopped commenting on the last episode because I didn't want to accidentally give anything away just by my knowledge of next week shaping my views of last week. If I inadvertently let it slip about the Martian tripods from War of the Worlds invading King's Landing at the end, people would never forgive me!


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ..I hang out at enough geeky web sites...


No, really?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> No, really?


I know, it's hard to believe. But it's true, I swear!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> ...and it has been mentioned MANY times that e-mails, for example, do not have spoiler tags. So if someone puts something about the leaked episode in spoiler text (which happened here), it is very possible to read it in your email by accident.
> 
> I just don't get the need to do these type of things. I just bought an expensive car, for example, and more than one person made it a point to tell me how much pleasure I should have because I'll be the first person in my area to be driving that model. Maybe I'm missing some sort of male gene, but I still don't get why that would be something that should bring me any pleasure/pride.


Nice humble-brag. Well done. *golf clap*


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Nice humble-brag. Well done. *golf clap*


LOL. Yeah. Just tell us what car you bought, already


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> We're going to be out of episodes soon enough. I don't need to rush it.


Me too. I actually like spending Saturday and Sunday eagerly anticipating putting the kids down and hunkering down for some Westeros.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I watched the leaked episode not to be ahead of the curve, but because I hang out at enough geeky web sites that it might be difficult to avoid spoilers.
> 
> But since I watched it, here I even stopped commenting on the last episode because I didn't want to accidentally give anything away just by my knowledge of next week shaping my views of last week. If I inadvertently let it slip about the Martian tripods from War of the Worlds invading King's Landing at the end, people would never forgive me!


Thank you for not spoilerizing. :up:


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ACoolDude said:


> It's the whole "being ahead of the curve". One of the biggest reasons anyone would volunteer to be a beta tester for a product/software.
> 
> If you could get an iPhone 9, or a Samsung Galaxy 9, or next gen Tivo etc, now, before anyone else, you wouldn't be tempted?
> 
> It's one of the reasons I go a TiVo way back when they first came out, and had a ReplayTV before that.


Of course I would want it. Because it's better than what I have. Not because I'm the first and everyone would look at me and be envious.



uncdrew said:


> Nice humble-brag. Well done. *golf clap*





DUDE_NJX said:


> LOL. Yeah. Just tell us what car you bought, already


LOL...didn't mean it that way, but wish I did 

Back on topic, didn't Robert prefer to use a hammer as well?

Oh, and I really don't want any of the Magnificent 7 or 10 to die...maybe the priest and the leader of the brotherhood. But I really want Tormund to get it on with Brienne and it would be a shame if Gendry stops rowing just long enough to die quickly. And I can't live without the Hound's cranky one-liners!


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## The Spud (Aug 28, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I watched the leaked episode not to be ahead of the curve, but because I hang out at enough geeky web sites that it might be difficult to avoid spoilers.


I watched it because I have no will power. 

For me the worst part wasn't the possibility of accidentally spoiling it for someone else since I don't normally comment in these threads, but now I have to wait even longer for the next episode.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I watched the leaked episode not to be ahead of the curve, but because I hang out at enough geeky web sites that it might be difficult to avoid spoilers.
> 
> But since I watched it, here I even stopped commenting on the last episode because I didn't want to accidentally give anything away just by my knowledge of next week shaping my views of last week. If I inadvertently let it slip about the Martian tripods from War of the Worlds invading King's Landing at the end, people would never forgive me!


I think it's kind of sweet that Rob thinks anyone reads his posts...awwww...so sweet


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I think it's kind of sweet that Rob thinks anyone reads his posts...awwww...so sweet


Perhaps, if he drove a nicer car...


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Back on topic, didn't Robert prefer to use a hammer as well?


Yes. Back in mid season 1, when Robert and Barristan Selmy are reminiscing about their first kill Robert talks about caving in someone's breastplate with his hammer.



Anubys said:


> Oh, and I really don't want any of the Magnificent 7 or 10 to die


That would be magnificent 7, I guess. Jon, Jorah, Gendry, (Davos stayed at Eastwatch), Tormund, The Hound, Thoros of Myr, and Beric Dondarrian. Then we see about 6 other people behind them, they look like they're pulling something, but we don't get a very good look at any of them. Are they just random (unnamed) wildlings along to help out? Or maybe other members of the Brotherhood? Back at the beginning of this season we saw about 10 members when they stayed at that house that The Hound and Arya stayed in a few seasons ago. Yet we only saw the 3 main guys in a cell this episode.

I did a screen grab and brightended it up a bit, but I'm still not sure who I'm looking at


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

probably some sort of portable cage to put the wight in...


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## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)




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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Oh, and I really don't want any of the Magnificent 7 or 10 to die...maybe the priest and the leader of the brotherhood. But I really want Tormund to get it on with Brienne and it would be a shame if Gendry stops rowing just long enough to die quickly. And I can't live without the Hound's cranky one-liners!


Correct. I'd love a glorious, death-free minor victory from this team. I like how they came together, their different styles, personalities, weapons, etc.

I don't even remember what's in "Coming Next Week" and what's in past episodes, so I'll stop talking now. But I'm eager to see them go North.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Correct. I'd love a glorious, death-free minor victory from this team. I like how they came together, their different styles, personalities, weapons, etc.
> 
> I don't even remember what's in "Coming Next Week" and what's in past episodes, so I'll stop talking now. But I'm eager to see them go North.


They're going North?!?! Why would you post that without spoiler tags?!?!?!


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> probably some sort of portable cage to put the wight in...


I'd assumed it was a sledge with supplies; but you could well be right that it's some kind of cage. (Or maybe it's a cage for the way back full of supplies for the search )


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> They're going North?!?! Why would you post that without spoiler tags?!?!?!


Now hang on. That was part of the episode we're allowed to discuss here.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Now hang on. That was part of the episode we're allowed to discuss here.


But we don't really know they're going north.

1) At the end of the episode, it looks like blizzard conditions. They could very well end up going in circles.

2) Going to hunt for a white walker is just sort of an insane plan. Yeah, they could get lucky and encounter a single one like Sam did, or a couple of them like in the pilot episode. But I think the more likely scenario is they encounter a ton of them. We saw what happened at Hardhome...an entire wildling camp didn't stand a chance, so what chance do a dozen men have? Seems the more likely plan is that they've gone as far north as they're going to, and now they'll either just set up camp (and that's what they're pulling...their tents, firewood, and smores ingredients) and wait for the white walkers to come to them, or they turn west and follow along the wall until they run into some white walkers. Then they can grab one and make a mad dash for the nearest manned gate.

I was certain one of these would happen, but now that we've been spoiled with the whole "going North" thing, whats the point of even watching the next episode now????


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

My guess is one of the gang will die north of the wall and will become the white walker they bring back.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> My guess is one of the gang will die north of the wall and will become the white walker they bring back.


Beric has died how many times now? Thoros keeps bringing him back from the dead....can he also bring him back from the undead? Or maybe in a sort of "fool me twice, can't get fooled again" moment, the guy's from the Brotherhood once again sacrifice Gendry to further their cause


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Beric has said that he doesn't know why the Lord of Light keeps bringing him back. Maybe we'll find out that his purpose was to stay alive long enough to die on that side of the Wall to help accomplish this ridiculous plan of Tyrions.


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

I think Anubys got a Mr. Mercedes. I'm jealous. Which class?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

You spoilerphobes, if you get hit by a bus before Sunday night you'll regret not watching the Spanish leak.

Full disclosure: didn't watch it, but I've accidentally spoiled myself elsewhere. 

Interesting idea about the wight being one of the group heading out. But I just think the whole idea of bringing back one of the undead to convince Cersei that WW exist is ridiculously stupid. If I was her that would never convince me of anything.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

wprager said:


> But I just think the whole idea of bringing back one of the undead to convince Cersei that WW exist is ridiculously stupid. If I was her that would never convince me of anything.


Whether she believes they exist or not, it's very hard for me to think Cersei would care. She seems to think there's no enemy she can't defeat.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Howie said:


> I think Anubys got a Mr. Mercedes. I'm jealous. Which class?


LOL...it's embarrassing to spend so much money on a car; something completely out of character for me...a strange set of circumstances had to fall perfectly into place for it to happen...But I still feel weird about it and weird talking about it...Mercedes finished in second place by my selection committee (comprised of me, myself, and I!) 



wprager said:


> Full disclosure: didn't watch it, but I've accidentally spoiled myself elsewhere.


I had to read that again...I absolutely read that as "soiled myself" the first time


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

wprager said:


> Full disclosure: didn't watch it, but I've accidentally spoiled myself elsewhere.


This is the only reason I did watch it. I would have been spoiled because within a day there were hundreds of edits from it on tumblr. Also why I stopped talking about this episode because now I'm scared I'll say something referencing the one I just watched.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

wprager said:


> You spoilerphobes, if you get hit by a bus before Sunday night you'll regret not watching the Spanish leak.
> 
> Full disclosure: didn't watch it, but I've accidentally spoiled myself elsewhere.
> 
> Interesting idea about the wight being one of the group heading out. But I just think the whole idea of bringing back one of the undead to convince Cersei that WW exist is ridiculously stupid. If I was her that would never convince me of anything.


Agreed. Pretty bizarre idea.

Why not take trusted people with ravens. The second you confirm WW send the raven flying home.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Sending the animated hand a few seasons ago, however, was a great idea. Once you had it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Agreed. Pretty bizarre idea.
> 
> Why not take trusted people with ravens. The second you confirm WW send the raven flying home.


Who could they take that Cersei would trust? She hates them all and would cheerfully kill them on sight. The object is to convince her to suspend the civil war so they can all band together (if only temporarily) to save the human race. Bringing back a wight would certainly prove that wights exist!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Who could they take that Cersei would trust? She hates them all and would cheerfully kill them on sight. The object is to convince her to suspend the civil war so they can all band together (if only temporarily) to save the human race. Bringing back a wight would certainly prove that wights exist!


It proves they exist but does not prove there is an army of them. Nor does it mean much to her either way. She thinks she's too far South to matter and they can't get past that wall anyhow. I'm not sure this is a well thought out plan, even from Tyrion, whom I consider the smartest character on the show.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Who could they take that Cersei would trust? She hates them all and would cheerfully kill them on sight. The object is to convince her to suspend the civil war so they can all band together (if only temporarily) to save the human race. Bringing back a wight would certainly prove that wights exist!


I wonder if even with that she would recognize the danger. Even if she accepts that White Walkers are real, will she see them as simply a means to thin both the North and Daenerys' armies? Her views don't seem that different than Petyr's other than that her goal is to maintain power rather than gain it.

The only way I can see her agreeing to join forces is if she believes that her own life is in danger. On the other hand, perhaps the wight would be enough to convince Jaime to turn against Cersei, knowing how much danger she would be putting everyone in.

And then of course there is the question of what Euron would do. Cersei only agreed to marry him after they won the war. If the war is temporarily halted, where does that put him? Would he recognize the danger that the White Walker army poses to the entire kingdom?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Cersei has her own re-animated henchman. She might even think she has a rapport with the apres-death crowd.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Dear God...only 2 episodes left and then we have to wait at least 1.5 years for any more episodes!

that is really depressing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Dear God...only 2 episodes left and then we have to wait at least 1.5 years for any more episodes!


People keep saying this but the only place I've heard it is here. Has that actually been announced?

I know _this _season was delayed a couple of months because of the weather...


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> People keep saying this but the only place I've heard it is here. Has that actually been announced?
> 
> I know _this _season was delayed a couple of months because of the weather...


It's going to start filming in October. Current season started filming in September. I think the 1.5 years is just a worst case scenario though. I don't think it's been officially announced.

'Game of Thrones' Final Season Won't Start Production Until October


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> People keep saying this but the only place I've heard it is here. Has that actually been announced?


It hasn't been announced. Google for "Game of thrones 2019" and you should find plenty of articles about it. It seems that in an interview the writers just sort of threw out that it could be a possibility, depending on how things work out after they finish writing. I've never found anything more substantive than that.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Since I was whining and complaining (something I'm VERY good at), I, of course, picked the worst case scenario for when we will see the next season.

My estimate is based on nothing but pessimism with no basis in facts.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Who could they take that Cersei would trust? She hates them all and would cheerfully kill them on sight. The object is to convince her to suspend the civil war so they can all band together (if only temporarily) to save the human race. Bringing back a wight would certainly prove that wights exist!


Military/political types figure this out all the time. You have truces to deliver messages, communicate, etc. You have trusted people and methods to get these things done.


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