# Pay monthly for an additional tivo? HAAA



## honduh chicken (Mar 9, 2009)

Tivo... my HERO, I'm so thankful they're willing to give the GENEROUS discount of $2.00 per month on a second Tivo.

WTF is WRONG with companies? Am I the only one that feels like the second "subscription" should be free? 

If you break down what a "second subscription" really is, it's a line item on a bill, a small amount of bandwidth for a second box to DL the menu's, and most importantly to Tivo, it means they'll move another unit off store shelves. 

I'm going to pay $300, plus, $6.00 per month to TWC, PLUS $9.00 per month to Tivo just so I can head off to bed, and continue watching TV in my bedroom? Does anyone else feel that if a current user is willing to commit to parting with $300-$500 of their hard earned (and scarce) disposable income to buy a SECOND Tivo device, they should at least be rewarded with a little bit of gratis bandwidth so they can use it on a second television? They're providing a Program Guide.. Not the programming itself! 

Anyone else agree? /rant


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Who wouldn't like their second subscription to be free?

TiVo essentially broke even in the last year (minus the Echostar settlement), so it's hard to argue that they are ripping off customers. Your costs equal their costs.

In FY2009, TiVo sold $57.7 million in hardware for $41.1 million. Said differently: if you bought your box for $250, the hardware cost TiVo $350 to build. The subscription helps to offset that difference.

In FY2009, TiVo service revenue was $188.4 million and it cost them $44.6 million to provide (guide data isn't free, nor are the servers to deliver it). TiVo's average revenue per subscription was $8.16, after lifetime subscriptions were amortized over a five year period. Said differently: if the average customer paid $8.16/mo, then it cost TiVo $1.93/mo to provide the service.

None of the above factor in the costs of the software. TiVo spent another $62 million on R&D alone, which works out to $2.68/mo of the $8.16/mo average subscription. Add together the R&D and the cost of providing the service, and that accounts for $4.62/mo of the $8.16/mo average subscription.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Exactly, they take a LOSS on hardware, so it will NEVER be free

And the point of the contracts now is to set it up so they make money on any sale


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

honduh chicken said:


> Anyone else agree? /rant


'Not anyone with any sense. TiVo is in business to make money. Their business model graciously allows the consumer to pay off TiVo's cost to deliver their products over a period of time, rather than up-front, if they so choose. Generally, I don't. Since I intend to own my TiVos for quite some years, I have lifetime subs, purchased when the Tivos were purchased.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mahermusic said:


> I know what you're feeling. I purchased a car a few years back, and went back 3 months later to get a 2nd one for my wife. Do you know they had the GALL to ask me to pay for the 2nd car? Sheesh...


You mean they didn't even offer to pick up the tab for the gasoline on the 2nd car? Scandalous!


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

The service is lot more than simple guide data, it is the right to use a lot of the features TiVo offers, and TiVo has a right to revenue for those features.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I agree with the OP. I love working for free and I'm sure he does also.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

janry said:


> I agree with the OP. I love working for free and I'm sure he does also.


I work HARD for my no Money, so hard for it honey!


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

classicsat said:


> The service is lot more than simple guide data, it is the right to use a lot of the features TiVo offers, and TiVo has a right to revenue for those features.


No kidding. The marginal cost for providing service to an additional unit is essentially zero, but by that theory all Tivos should get free service.

Would I like the price to be less? Of course, but Tivo has to recover the costs of developing software somehow.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

DrewTivo said:


> No kidding. The marginal cost for providing service to an additional unit is essentially zero, but by that theory all Tivos should get free service.
> 
> Would I like the price to be less? Of course, but Tivo has to recover the costs of developing software somehow.


Basic software licensing model for ALL software that costs money


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

honduh chicken said:


> Tivo... my HERO, I'm so thankful they're willing to give the GENEROUS discount of $2.00 per month on a second Tivo.
> 
> WTF is WRONG with companies? Am I the only one that feels like the second "subscription" should be free?
> .
> ...


No, I don't agree. If you subscribed to satellite radio (XM/Sirius), I'm guessing you would rant about them charging for a second receiver so you could listen to it in a second car as well. These are service companies and are not in business to make money on the hardware (even though TiVo sells the hardware as well).

I'm sure everyone would like to see a bigger discount but I doubt that is going to happen. I went with lifetime on mine (actually lifetime transfer from my series 1 units).

It sounds like you would be interested in the device someone else has proposed in another thread which is a cheaper, subscription-less TiVo extender so you can watch shows in the bedroom that are recorded on your TiVo.

Scott


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## scoobs77 (Apr 14, 2009)

MikeMar said:


> I work HARD for my no Money, so hard for it honey!


Don't we all!!


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

Tivo Free? I have lifetime on one unit, and pay a fee for the second to Tivo, but its reasonable for service provided. Whats much more unreasonable is for Cox to charge a gateway fee for every TV/Tivo connected to their service....its a rip off. I don't mind the converter/Cable Card rental, but that digital gate way fee is a rip off. I am sure other cable providers do the same thing.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

this is not the customer they are looking for.
You can go about your business
Move along.



PS - get a second HD for 250 and lifetime for 299 - so that for 549 you indeed do get the second serice with no monthly fee.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

I have had my TiVoHD now for 2 months and use FiOS service and can tell you this. In the 3.5 years i have had FiOS i have gone through 8 HD DVR's and 3 SD STB's. The guide they use is a joke, vague or just wrong program descriptions and reruns listed as NEW shows that record regarless of how you have the DVR set up and i could go on and on. After putting up with crap equipment and a worse guide the fee for TiVo service isnt all that bad and my TiVoHD pays for itself in a year compared to renting junk equipment from Verizon. The OP needs to get a grip!


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## honduh chicken (Mar 9, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> this is not the customer they are looking for.
> You can go about your business
> Move along.


k, thanks. Hey! You should be a security guard at Tivo when you grow up!


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## honduh chicken (Mar 9, 2009)

Plus, most corporate models are leaning toward customer loyalty these days anyway. Most competing services already offer a multi-room solution, so if Tivo wants to stay competitive they will have to provide some sort of value in this area eventually. Weather it's a multi room solution with split tuners, or the ability to add additional subscriptions for a very low price.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

honduh chicken said:


> Most competing services already offer a multi-room solution,


Could you name a few? and why aren't you using one of them to get what you want?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

honduh chicken said:


> k, thanks. Hey! You should be a security guard at Tivo when you grow up!


well I have my sights set on Jedi Knight but thanks for the tip


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## honduh chicken (Mar 9, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well I have my sights set on Jedi Knight but thanks for the tip


I gave up my change of become a Jedi Knight for the opportunity to touch a real live girl in middle school...

and regretted every moment since.


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

Umm, you touched a middle school girl? That's pretty sick man. She might be young, but I'm sure she can spell "statutory"...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

honduh chicken said:


> I gave up my change of become a Jedi Knight for the opportunity to touch a real live girl in middle school...
> 
> and regretted every moment since.


I have a Daughter in Middle school - we need to talk!!!


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## honduh chicken (Mar 9, 2009)

scandia101 said:


> Could you name a few? and why aren't you using one of them to get what you want?


My Dish network DVR has two outputs, and a second remote. If you run the DVR in "dual" mode, you can watch each tuner in individual rooms, or recorded video in either room. Before people get all crazy, there's a very spacific reason I don't just use the Dish DVR... ready?

it sucks.

I love Tivo, I want to marry Tivo, and have kids with Tivo that are born with little antenna on their heads.. but I just think that because I'm already a customer, I should be afforded more than a 20% discount on the service for a second account.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

honduh chicken said:


> My Dish network DVR has two outputs, and a second remote.


wrong answer - if you are spending 300$ on the TiVo Hardware - that is a TiVo HD which does not work with DISH at all. I call troll.


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## andymeng (Apr 14, 2009)

Well the first thing I note on this and a tech support forum is the incredibly snotty attitude directed toward anyone who dares doubt or question the holy Mecca of TiVo. People get a grip, Tivo is NOT a religion, it's a service offering. You don't worship it, you try to make it better.

If this weren't your attitude you may have arrived at a fairly simple solution, which is to put a pc or laptop in the bedroom and watch it on there or plug it into the TV. There's free. Or, if you just want to watch live TV then get a standard box for the bedroom as I have. If I want to watch a pre-recorded show (rarely) I put it on the laptop.

But I have to totally agree with chicken, a minor discount on the 2nd box is outrageous. A $2 or $3 per month 2nd subscription fee is much more appropriate. If that were the case I'd have the 2nd TiVo myself so they are throwing away a few bucks a month on me cause it's simply not worth it. Who was it that compared asking for a free 2nd subscription to asking for a 2nd free car? Simply a magnificent comparison. Magnificently moronic. Instead, compare it to a similar product, software licencing. Adobe allows 2 activations on it's software, as do most companies. One for your main PC (living room TiVo) and one for your laptop (bedroom). Microsoft Office, realizing the practical uses of the product, offers 3 (*count em, three*) activations for main, kids, and mobile thus allowing a household to use one copy for all their legit purposes. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

And I came here to complain about the increase in ads all over the TiVo considering it's already the highest priced product of it's type. If I wanted advertising I'd watch it on live TV. Guess there's not going to be any sympathy here though, and I'll probably get demands to pay a 10% tithe to the religion of TiVo. hmmm, would that be a tax deductable religious donation?

Get Real

Chicken get a laptop for the bedroom.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Now someone else feels the need to register and defend the first poster... Hmmm.

just for the sake of other people reading this thread.

TiVo pays for the guide data per box. The monkeys demand being paid per device 
TiVo looses or makes razor thin margin on the hardware

the monthly sub is their business model for making a profit.
The OP wants TiVo to spend some money to add the code to reduce the number of subs needed. It simply does not fit the business model and the people that have been on this forum a while all know it. TiVo is well aware that lowering the sub would lead to more sales, Duh. Still the amount of deliberate flame bait stays high and the two new posters can have fun agreeing with each other I guess.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

It has already been said that Tivo is not brimming with cash. As there is no such thing as a free lunch, a discount for a second software liscence means an increase in the initial liscence. 

That would certainly address your concern, but raise others for us who only want to use one, and is certainly part of the embedded costs of the example marketing practices sited.


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## andymeng (Apr 14, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Now someone else feels the need to register and defend the first poster... Hmmm.
> 
> just for the sake of other people reading this thread.
> 
> ...


Well no I didn't register to defend Chicken, and not entirely defending him. But being thoroughly annoyed at having my arse reemed a good one someplace else by a religious zealot I put my 2 cents worth in.

While we're on this topic though, I agree that Tivo bases everything on the box. I ought to know. I got a bad box, had to go through nightmares and a 3 week refund on the one box and pay for a new subscription on the new box. Pain in the arse and I almost said I'll just deal with the Verizon service if they are that stupid.

So has anyone considered that tying the service to a box is not the smartest business model? Maybe the administrative nightmare of it is the reason for such a slim profit margin.

once again, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

The extra service fee being so high is one reason I went to MythTV when I left DirecTV. DTV charged $5/receiver for the extra one, and that's it. The DVR fee of $5 covered all DVRs on the account. Setting the multi-box rate to about $5 would likely sell more subscriptions. The downside is they may go into the red doing it. So I can see why they don't. However, it's a valid point that the OP is making. Perhaps, for some of you, it's not a big deal. But when I looked into things I was considering Comcast+TiVoHD to replace DTV. By the time I got done with the TiVo fees and the Comcast fees, I would be paying about $25/mo MORE than I paid DTV for about the same service. 

My wife and I took a close look at what we actually watched and decided that OTA would do for 90&#37; of what we wanted. The rest we can get via online services like the channel operators' website, Hulu, or just wait a bit and use DVDs. It's working great for us. It might not work for everyone, so decide for yourself.


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## argicida (Feb 17, 2009)

MikeMar said:


> Exactly, they take a LOSS on hardware, so it will NEVER be free
> 
> And the point of the contracts now is to set it up so they make money on any sale


Yeah I view it as a reasonable choice - but but for a major DVR user who 4 or more it becomes too big a cost difference so I stay with DirecTV


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## andymeng (Apr 14, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Now someone else feels the need to register and defend the first poster... Hmmm.


And the thing that really set me off, (apologies if I went off too much) was that noone offered any solutions like downloading to a PC in the bedroom.

As an aside note that in this thread alone there are 2 people that have TiVo and would pay a modest 2nd box fee, and 2 people that have totally forgone TiVo because it's pricing model is just too high. Assuming the non-TiVo people have DirecTV Tivo or what the heck are they on this forum for.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Yes, if they drastically reduce the subscription on the 2nd box, they're going to have to increase it on the first. The current pricing makes some sense though, because in a way, the multi-TiVo people are subsidizing the single-TiVo people. By making it cheap to have just one TiVo it entices nonTiVo-ites to start using TiVo. Once you're sucked in, it's not as hard to recruit you to a multi-TiVo-ite. So the first TiVo needs to be cheap just to get people to try it out.


The other way I look at it, is that the part of the price of the TiVo is the service. Since the hardware is sold at a loss, part of the service fee is indirectly really for the hardware. So I just look at the total cost (price of the box + service fee) as being what I pay to get the TiVo. It makes total sense that you should have to pay that whole fee again to get your second TiVo.

(BTW, since all 3 of my TiVos are lifetimed, I don't pay any monthly fee. I just consider the lifetime fee I paid as being part of the fee to get that TiVo.)

And finally, if the multi-service discount is $2 / month, and if $2 is their real cost for providing service on each box, then when you think of it, you're already getting service for free on that second box. The rest of the "service fee" (net after discount) is really to help pay for the underpriced hardware.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Aren't you getting a discount with MSD? What else do you want? Free? The only way that will happen is if Tivo changes their model to allow for free boxes with more than normal advertising.



honduh chicken said:


> I love Tivo, I want to marry Tivo, and have kids with Tivo that are born with little antenna on their heads.. but I just think that because I'm already a customer, I should be afforded more than a 20% discount on the service for a second account.


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## Pixel (Jan 10, 2003)

honduh chicken said:


> F*ucking people need to re-read the OP. I'm not asking for anything free, I'm willing to pay what they ask for the hardware, just the ability to use the my PAID Tivo service in a different room on a different device at a different time (not worth an extra $10 per month).
> 
> Maybe if I inject a bunch of useless sarcasm you all will understand better...
> 
> OMG, it's TOTALLY worth $10 per month for a second device, considering the already overworked Tivomonkeys have to RE-TYPE all that guide data so it shows up on my bedroom Tivo... and to think it always matches my Living Room Tivo perfectly! They never make a mistake! How can they type so fast.


Sarcasm noted. Bravo on your wit. 

What you want is a subscription per household. Or yourself. Without regard to any hardware you do or don't have. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

Here's the thing - TIVO doesn't make money selling hardware. They lose it. On each one. They make money selling software and the guide data subscription for the hardware. For each one.

That's what their business is about. The software and guide data. NOT the hardware. The hardware is a kind of loss leader.

I happen to have 2. The second one is $3 less than the first. I'd like the guide data and software (and the ocassional updates) to be free for any units beyond the first. And in a sense they could be if I bought a lifetime (the hardware, not me) subscription at the start.

So, I hope that explains it clearly. Though I don't expect that you're going to like their business model anyway.


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## Pixel (Jan 10, 2003)

andymeng said:


> So has anyone considered that tying the service to a box is not the smartest business model?


But is it really tied to a box? For a THD, Series 3, etc., yes, it looks that way.

But what about that Liquid TV from Nero? It looks like some software and a video card for your PC. Couldn't that be moved from PC to PC to PC (at the time you upgrade to a newer PC)? That seems like the software is then not tied to a particular box. The software an guide data just follows along to every computer you own.


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## andymeng (Apr 14, 2009)

Pixel said:


> But is it really tied to a box? For a THD, Series 3, etc., yes, it looks that way.
> 
> But what about that Liquid TV from Nero? It looks like some software and a video card for your PC. Couldn't that be moved from PC to PC to PC (at the time you upgrade to a newer PC)? That seems like the software is then not tied to a particular box. The software an guide data just follows along to every computer you own.


Yes it is. Your subscription (lifetime or not) is tied to the TiVo unit itself. Again, get a defective one and you have to open a whole new account and get a credit back on the old account. I only have 1 box so can't try it, but I would venture a guess that there is something just like the ipod that keeps you from moving it. I may be wrong.

However there is no issue with setting up multiple PC's to access the same TiVo box. I have this desktop and my laptop both connected and can upload/download from either to the box.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

andymeng said:


> And the thing that really set me off, (apologies if I went off too much) was that noone offered any solutions like downloading to a PC in the bedroom.


the tone of the OP was way off base, it does not attract much in the way of actual help


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## argicida (Feb 17, 2009)

andymeng said:


> However there is no issue with setting up multiple PC's to access the same TiVo box. I have this desktop and my laptop both connected and can upload/download from either to the box.


And a decent PC these days can output to a bigscreen TV but it sure is easier to just put a hidef DVR with every TV.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

andymeng said:


> Yes it is. Your subscription (lifetime or not) is tied to the TiVo unit itself. Again, get a defective one and you have to open a whole new account and get a credit back on the old account.


wrong for monthly subs. You need to do some more research before trying to bait people


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## andymeng (Apr 14, 2009)

Pixel said:


> Here's the thing - TIVO doesn't make money selling hardware. They lose it. On each one. They make money selling software and the guide data subscription for the hardware. For each one.


OK, I have a question. Can someone point me to the information on how TiVo is losing money on the hardware? I paid 299 for mine at BestBuy, and I know a little bit about electronics and mass production. The TiVo DVR or any electronics cost relatively little to actually make. It's a bunch of circuit boards, wires, LED displays, a fan, a hard drive, and a case. So the physical components would be only marginally higher than a video recorder or a DVD player that can be had for $29.95, plus a hard drive that just keeps getting cheaper by the day.

So if the unit is being sold at a loss 2 factors come to mind, first that the R&D per unit is being factored into the cost. Using good old economics, this means if you double your sales volume the cost per unit for R&D drops in half. As in a fixed cost for those familiar. If this is true, then keeping the price high, particularly on additional units, to the point that it drives away sales is a poor business plan. Again, in this thread alone there are 6 confirmed no sales due to pricing that would be sales if the subscription fee were nominal.

The second thought is that if the cost is high due to limited production, then getting more people hooked (like picking up the 6 units in this thread) would allow for higher mass production thus reducing the cost per unit.

So someone point me to the stats on how they are losing money selling the things, I want to see them for myself.

In case anyone is wondering, I love my TiVo. It's the best thing since sliced bread and the microwave, but everything I see and have had to deal with indicates a poor business plan.


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## andymeng (Apr 14, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> wrong for monthly subs. You need to do some more research before trying to bait people


I paid yearly (129) and got a bad unit. Had to return it, and had to request refund and set up an entirely new account with the new unit. Love the service but that was a pain in the #$%^&*() If an actual monthly subscription is different than the yearly, I'll stand corrected.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

All this time I thought the MSD was $3.00 per month ($12.95 - $9.95).


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## honduh chicken (Mar 9, 2009)

andymeng said:


> OK, I have a question. Can someone point me to the information on how TiVo is losing money on the hardware? I paid 299 for mine at BestBuy, and I know a little bit about electronics and mass production. The TiVo DVR or any electronics cost relatively little to actually make. It's a bunch of circuit boards, wires, LED displays, a fan, a hard drive, and a case. So the physical components would be only marginally higher than a video recorder or a DVD player that can be had for $29.95, plus a hard drive that just keeps getting cheaper by the day.
> 
> So if the unit is being sold at a loss 2 factors come to mind, first that the R&D per unit is being factored into the cost. Using good old economics, this means if you double your sales volume the cost per unit for R&D drops in half. As in a fixed cost for those familiar. If this is true, then keeping the price high, particularly on additional units, to the point that it drives away sales is a poor business plan. Again, in this thread alone there are 6 confirmed no sales due to pricing that would be sales if the subscription fee were nominal.
> 
> ...


You hit on a major point that I think most of the train riders have failed to see. Market equilibrium is is only achieved once the price point is where it should be. More users would invest in second units if they didn't have to pay damn near full price for the service on the second box. The companies that "get this" have already been mentioned. But I can use Adobe CS4 on my work comp, and bring it home on my laptop at night.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

andymeng said:


> So someone point me to the stats on how they are losing money selling the things, I want to see them for myself.


Did you see my first post to this thread? It quoted the numbers from TiVo's FY2009 annual report. In the last year, TiVo sold $57.7 million in hardware for $41.1 million.



andymeng said:


> OK, I have a question. Can someone point me to the information on how TiVo is losing money on the hardware? I paid 299 for mine at BestBuy, and I know a little bit about electronics and mass production. The TiVo DVR or any electronics cost relatively little to actually make. It's a bunch of circuit boards, wires, LED displays, a fan, a hard drive, and a case. So the physical components would be only marginally higher than a video recorder or a DVD player that can be had for $29.95, plus a hard drive that just keeps getting cheaper by the day.


It doesn't sound like you know as much as you think. The cost of a DVD player is not at all comparable.

DVD players are built around cheap [email protected] SoCs with 16MB memory. There are wide selection of competing solutions from which to choose, most of which are now competing on price. When it comes to DVR SoCs, there's basically only one game in town (Broadcom), and these chips are priced accordingly. These DVR SoCs cost about 10x as much as the [email protected] decoders in low-end DVD players.

The TivoHD is based around a Broadcom BCM7401 DVR SoC ($30/ea in 10,000 unit quantities) with 256MB memory. It also has 2x MicroTune MT2131 tuners, 2x AMD Theater 314 QAM/VSB demodulators, 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs (to support analog channels), 1x VIXS XCode 2115 IC with dual integrated [email protected] encoders and a CableCard interface, a dedicated bank of 32MB DDR400 SDRAM for the VIXS X-Code, a Silicon Image SiI5723 Dual SATA controller to support eSATA expansion, and a Xilinx Spartan-3 XC3S200 FPGA. Some of these parts cost $10-20 each.

The logic board itself is relatively complex. Here's an overall shot. This closeup shot shows the parts beneath the hard drive. I don't have a shot showing the tuners beneath the metal shields.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Using the OPs analogy, I should be able to take my one copy of Windows OS and put it on as many computers as I want.


Don't you have to buy a license for each computer (legally)?


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

honduh chicken said:


> ...But I can use Adobe CS4 on my work comp, and bring it home on my laptop at night.


But you can't use them at the same time, that's explicit in the Adobe license.

So if you use that analogy on TiVo, it would mean turning OFF the living room machine when you want to use the bedroom machine. That means nothing gets recorded or downloaded on the Living room TiVo until you've switched off the bedroom TiVo and turned back on the living room TiVo.

Are you sure that's what you want? I think you're on your own there.


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## andymeng (Apr 14, 2009)

bkdtv said:


> Did you see my first post to this thread? It quoted the numbers from TiVo's FY2009 annual report. In the last year, TiVo sold $57.7 million in hardware for $41.1 million.
> 
> It doesn't sound like you know as much as you think. The cost of a DVD player is not at all comparable.
> 
> ...


link to annual report didn't work, but I'll go look. Not to hopefully beat this into the ground, but the Verizon DVR, Comcast, DirecTV, etc. are going to have that same Broadcom chip, it appears at brief glance to be the common chip that runs almost all similar devices. They will all have the cablecard interface, tuners, all the high def and low def audio. All those are just chipsets produced in the millions and again most are common to all similar products.

The real difference is the propriatary stuff that makes TiVo the best on the market. Mostly software, aka R&D. So I have to go read their report but once again if the R&D is factored into that cost and is a major part, then doubling the sales volume could easily turn a sales loss into a sales profit. A pie chart of costs would be helpful but I have to break for family dinner, so later.

But remember that similar units from competitors are selling for less and turning a profit, so you have to give that some thought.


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

andymeng said:


> ...
> But remember that similar units from competitors are selling for less and turning a profit, so you have to give that some thought.


No they are not, they are subsidizing the price as well. They get the money back from you when you sign up for the cable/Satellite service


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

andymeng said:


> link to annual report didn't work, but I'll go look. Not to hopefully beat this into the ground, but the Verizon DVR, Comcast, DirecTV, etc. are going to have that same Broadcom chip, it appears at brief glance to be the common chip that runs almost all similar devices. They will all have the cablecard interface, tuners, all the high def and low def audio. All those are just chipsets produced in the millions and again most are common to all similar products.


I fixed the link.

Broadcom has a virtual monopoly on DVR SoCs.

As far as the costs of other products, Dish Network's DVR costs about $400 if you want to "own it" -- but then you've still got to pay the monthly DVR fee. During a conference for investors last year, DirecTV reported the cost of its HR20 hardware at $450, while touting the reduced cost of its HR21 replacement at $250 --- this didn't include the cost of the software. In 2007, Motorola charged $480 (in quantity) for its DCT6416 DVR, although I'm sure cable companies pay less now; Motorola hardware doesn't come with software.



andymeng said:


> The real difference is the propriatary stuff that makes TiVo the best on the market. Mostly software, aka R&D. So I have to go read their report but once again if the R&D is factored into that cost and is a major part, then doubling the sales volume could easily turn a sales loss into a sales profit. A pie chart of costs would be helpful but I have to break for family dinner, so later.


Software is not factored into the cost of the hardware. That's a separate line item, which comes in at ~$62 million (under R&D).



andymeng said:


> But remember that similar units from competitors are selling for less and turning a profit, so you have to give that some thought.


TiVo has one competitor in the market for standalone CableCard DVRs -- Moxi. The Moxi sells for $799 and that price includes a lifetime subscription. The Moxi hardware does not incorporate analog tuners, nor does it support ATSC (OTA). It does use a newer, faster version of the Broadcom DVR SoC to provide a high-definition interface that takes full advantage of 16:9.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

You don't buy the TiVo software when you buy a TiVo, you buy the hardware and you subscribe to the TiVo service (unless you buy a lifetime sub). The TiVo doesn't do what it is designed to do without service. You can watch what you have already recorded but you can't record anything new or use any of the other features. It's like buying a netbook and not connecting it to the internet. You can use whatever software is already on the netbook, but you can't get any new content or browse the internet without paying for internet service. In the case of a computer, one company makes its money on the hardware and another company makes its money on the service. In the case of TiVo, they lose money on the hardware and try to make money on the service. TiVo has no incentive to give away the service.


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## Bob_Newhart (Jul 14, 2004)

Could't you just run an additional cable from the living room Tivo into the bedroom to watch it?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I solved the problem by buying the lifetime subscription for units #1, 2, and 4.


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## andymeng (Apr 14, 2009)

bkdtv said:


> I fixed the link.
> 
> Broadcom has a virtual monopoly on DVR SoCs.


Thanks for the new link and the info. Saved me tons of research and I stand corrected, I had no idea that Broadcom had such a lock on it. I had 199 stuck in my head for a replacement DVR from Verizon, but that was well over a year ago so never mind I may have been mistaken.

The point is still there that buying a 2nd unit then paying a full subscription is too darned expensive for the mortal man. 20% discount, so 8/month, but it doesn't stop there, add 3.99x2 for the 2 additional decoder cards, plus tax, etc. and you're up near 20/month for a 2nd box. That's just plain too much for a normal working (or in my case retired) guy that has a budget. I could plunk down an extra 50-100 for the unit but not 20/month. And obviously there are many others in the same situation.

So thank you for your time and a clear, technically competitent answer   as opposed to some of the other #$%^&*( responses that so  annoyed me.

what's the answer? I still maintain download to the laptop and take it to the bedroom either plugged into a TV or not.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

There's also some hardware you can buy (I forget the name of the company that sells it, but you can buy it online) that hooks up your TiVo in such a way that it's content goes through your house's coaxial cable and then you can watch your programs on any TV in the house you want. The kit you buy that does this also allows your TiVo remote to work next to the other TVs. (IIRC, you connect some kind of IR receiver near the other TV, and that receiver sends the signal into the coax, where it emerges next to the TiVO itself and controls it.)

So you can take your remote with you to the other room and remotely operate your TiVo with it, and watch your programs on the other TV.


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## jjberger2134 (Nov 20, 2002)

timckelley said:


> There's also some hardware you can buy (I forget the name of the company that sells it, but you can buy it online) that hooks up your TiVo in such a way that it's content goes through your house's coaxial cable and then you can watch your programs on any TV in the house you want. The kit you buy that does this also allows your TiVo remote to work next to the other TVs. (IIRC, you connect some kind of IR receiver near the other TV, and that receiver sends the signal into the coax, where it emerges next to the TiVO itself and controls it.)
> 
> So you can take your remote with you to the other room and remotely operate your TiVo with it, and watch your programs on the other TV.


Do you mean something like this?
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2367761&tab=summary

or this?
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technolo...5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1239761524&sr=8-5


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I realize that the guide data is not the only thing we pay for, but IMHO, part of the bandwidth costs could be reduced if only one Tivo in a household 'phoned home' and the rest got the guide data from the 'master' Tivo.

This would require all to be on the same account, and require all to have the same setup (i.e. lineup), so it seems like various VPN hacks to get multiple Tivos on one account to 'steal' data would be less likely than being able to transfer shows between widely separated Tivos.. (which I presume is easy with enough networking know-how)


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

jjberger2134 said:


> Do you mean something like this?
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2367761&tab=summary
> 
> or this?
> http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technolo...5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1239761524&sr=8-5


Those work differently than what I was thinking of. I think the word "cross" is in the name of the manufacturer I'm thinking of, but can't quite remember.

But your links are very interesting, and probably work just as well. Your second link is especially interesting because of the low price.


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## honduh chicken (Mar 9, 2009)

timckelley said:


> Those work differently than what I was thinking of. I think the word "cross" is in the name of the manufacturer I'm thinking of, but can't quite remember.
> 
> But your links are very interesting, and probably work just as well. Your second link is especially interesting because of the low price.


Or I could get a slingbox and watch my Tivo from anywhere in the world. Not the point, I want to add a second device to my bedroom TV so I can view and watch tivo'd shows from my living room tivo while I go to bed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

honduh chicken said:


> Or I could get a slingbox and watch my Tivo from anywhere in the world. Not the point, I want to add a second device to my bedroom TV so I can view and watch tivo'd shows from my living room tivo while I go to bed.


so how is that TiVo HD and DISH working out for you?


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

jjberger2134 said:


> Do you mean something like this?
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2367761&tab=summary
> 
> or this?
> http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technolo...5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1239761524&sr=8-5





timckelley said:


> Those work differently than what I was thinking of. I think the word "cross" is in the name of the manufacturer I'm thinking of, but can't quite remember.
> 
> But your links are very interesting, and probably work just as well. Your second link is especially interesting because of the low price.


Just a shot in the dark here, but could this be the company that you were thinking of?
http://www.xantech.com/Home/


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## Pixel (Jan 10, 2003)

andymeng said:


> Yes it is. Your subscription (lifetime or not) is tied to the TiVo unit itself. Again, get a defective one and you have to open a whole new account and get a credit back on the old account. I only have 1 box so can't try it, but I would venture a guess that there is something just like the ipod that keeps you from moving it. I may be wrong.


Interesting.

I've had at least 1 TiVo since the series 1. Most often 2. Last fall I got a THD. So for a while I had 3. Only until I got the THD connected then I ended service on a S2.

But that first THD was defective. I had to arrange with TiVo for it's return and an advance replacement.

All of that happened on my existing account. All of the working units I ever had are shown on my account. The one that I had to return for a replacement is not shown on my account.

So I agree that the subscription follows the TiVo, but I say again, with Liquid TV looking like it's nothing more than a TV tuner card and some software, why shouldn't it be possible to move it from PC to PC when you upgrade your computer without TiVo knowing or caring about that?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I think it would be a good idea for TiVo to lower the multi service discount on additional units for exsisting subs, like how TV providers price price premium channels:

1st sub, $12.95 month/129 year
2nd sub $8.95 month/99 year (I know. Exists now)
3rd sub $6.95 month/69 year
....

Those $6.95 monthlies would still be profitable according to the above.

The idea is the biggest users, and easiest acquistions, of TiVo ssubs are Tivo subs who want to MRV to more rooms.

Bring back the evangelical incentives for those to bring in new users, too.


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## Pixel (Jan 10, 2003)

honduh chicken said:


> You hit on a major point that I think most of the train riders have failed to see. Market equilibrium is is only achieved once the price point is where it should be. More users would invest in second units if they didn't have to pay damn near full price for the service on the second box. The companies that "get this" have already been mentioned. But I can use Adobe CS4 on my work comp, and bring it home on my laptop at night.


This train rider is clear on all of that. There's a larger point that you're missing or not addressing:

TiVo has to make money to stay in business.

It's exactly that simple. We are not privy to the exact internal operations. What we can safely assume is that they have costs to do business and wish to make a profit running it. All of that has to be divided up somehow. right now, it's the pricing arrangement you object to. It could be something different. Yet still yield the same amount of money to them.

In some ways, arranging the pricing to be more satisfactory to you could be like negotiating the price of a car when you have a trade in. The salesman/woman can arrange the deal however necessary to make it acceptable to the buyer yet get the same money overall.

So, you *could* get the 2nd, 3rd and so on DVR at no cost whatsoever as far as the subscription goes, but the 1st one might be $30/mo. Would that be acceptable?

You could also get the same deal I just described, priced as it is now, $12.95/mo. but have ads before it executes a command you input (change channels, go to settings, ect.) Ad revenue might generate the income they need.

Or you can use the option already available - buy the lifetime subscription for each unit and be done with it. After a few years, you break even on each one and it's all gravy after that.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

mattack said:


> I realize that the guide data is not the only thing we pay for, but IMHO, part of the bandwidth costs could be reduced if only one Tivo in a household 'phoned home' and the rest got the guide data from the 'master' Tivo.


Bandwidth costs are marginal, especially for broadband users. The guide data costs more than the bandwidth it uses, and is licensed per box anyways.

There is no real effective way to reduce the cost for MSD without taking away from the bottom line, except for increasing the price of the primary subscription or the hardware sale.


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## honduh chicken (Mar 9, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so how is that TiVo HD and DISH working out for you?


I'm not 100% sure what kind of e-turd direction you're going with this, but if you're being serious... than.. good?

I hate Dish. It sucks. It's going away soon. The Tivo HD's working great. The first one I bought didn't work at all, but I returned it to best buy, and got a replacement at the store, and was able to call and have my Tivo account switched to the new unit with little to no hassle. Working with TWC on the cable cards and most recently the tuning adapter is another story.


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## honduh chicken (Mar 9, 2009)

classicsat said:


> Bandwidth costs are marginal, especially for broadband users. The guide data costs more than the bandwidth it uses, and is licensed per box anyways.
> 
> There is no real effective way to reduce the cost for MSD without taking away from the bottom line, except for increasing the price of the primary subscription or the hardware sale.


LOL, I love how some people answer as if they're the CFO of Tivo.

Reduction in cost for MSD (assuming that's the "device" you're talking about) is possible, if the margin was lower on 2nd (and subsequent) subs, more users may be apt to buy them, thus moving more units off shelves, meaning more users are "tied" to them, higher subscription numbers (which effectively means more ad dollars), and more monthly revenue (from the 2nd sub itself). OR, alternately they can get nothing, keep their box on the shelf, and no additional sub revenue because eventually someone else will catch up with Tivo, (local cable provider, dish provider, etc). And they WILL make it cheaper to own a second device, as they've already proven with their set-top boxes.

From the people I've talked to, most love their Tivo, but would not buy a second because of cost. It's nothing short of a missed opportunity for Tivo.

It's simple marketing 101. Tivo could sell 1 device, but to cover their costs, they'd have to sell it at $1,000,000. OR they could sell it at $1 and end up selling 1,000,000 units! It's a delicate process, with a zillion other variables than the example I just listed above, but when you talk to 10 real life Tivo owners (not internet fanboys), and they all say "I'd totally buy another one, but I don't want to pay another $15-20 a month on top of the $300 I'll shell out for the 2nd box) then you know Tivo hasn't quite hit the nail on the head.

Why do you think the Apple decided to slash the price of the iphone dispite having the hottest product in a decade and sales records other manufacturers would kill to have? Someone was smart enough to figure out, "hey" if the price was lower, more people would own them.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

honduh chicken said:


> Why do you think the Apple decided to slash the price of the iphone dispite having the hottest product in a decade and sales records other manufacturers would kill to have? Someone was smart enough to figure out, "hey" if the price was lower, more people would own them.


I think you've mentioned that several times, but the iPhone example isn't relevant.

All reports suggest that the margins on the iPhone are substantial. iSuppli reported that the iPhone 3G costs $173 in parts, so dropping the retail price from $499 to $399 was certainly doable. With the TivoHD, you are already paying below cost for the hardware.


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

It's true that a lower price means greater volume, but does the extra volume balance out the lower margin? It's the old joke -- you lose money on every sale, so how do you make a profit? Volume!

Suppose they did what the OP proposed -- service on the second box is free. They'd certainly sell a lot of second boxes... which they sell at a loss. And no increased subscription revenue. Whoops.

Okay, some non-TiVo owners would buy in if they could get two subscriptions for one. Going by the proportions of cost vs. revenue given above, the subsidy for a $299 HD is about $120. Lifetime is $399. So after selling two HDs, they'd have $159 left over instead of $279.

So if they currently sell 50,000 HDs (made up number), how many do they have to sell to start making more money with a 2-for-1 lifetime? 87,336. Sure, sales will increase... but by 75%?!?

They could reduce the discount, but that also reduces the increase in sales. Right now TiVo seems to think that $100 off for a second lifetime subscription is the right point. They could be wrong, but they're the ones that have seen all the numbers.


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