# Do DVR-specific HDD really make a difference?



## anonymuse (Nov 27, 2005)

I've seen recommendations on the board for using Seagate DB35 Series and Maxtor (which, BTW, Seagate owns now) Quickview drives since they are better suited for DVRs. I'm can't remember or find the Samsung and Western Digital models that people recommend at the moment.

Why are they "better" than other Seagate, Maxtor, or Samsung models?

I know they're supposed to be quieter, but is that the only difference? If so, do you notice the difference above the fan any way?

Or are they somehow more durable to withstand constant use?

Thanks in advance!

BTW, It just amazes me how cheap hard drives are getting (just got WD MyBook 500GB for $129) and internals are even cheaper. Dealnews is blowing me away right now (http://dealnews.com/categories/Computer/Storage/Hard-Drives/Internal-Hard-Drives/473.html) and I have an itchy finger since I really want some more space on my DirecTV R10--250 GB would be massive for me!


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## GkarRacer (Feb 26, 2003)

It's not so much that they are quieter. It's that the controller is optimized for streaming data rather than random access all over the drive like a computer generally wants. Whether or not they are truly better I don't know, but the price difference is not that much. I just ordered a 750GB DB35 from NextWarehouse for ~298. I'll see how it goes after I upgrade.


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## anonymuse (Nov 27, 2005)

I wonder if they somehow have better cooling properties?


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## HomeUser (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote from WeaKnees Seagate DB35 DVR Specific Hard Drives
"Error Recovery: Desktop drives retry on errors to make sure that your Excel spreadsheet is exactly right - it's imperative. But when watching video, if one block of data is bad, you may not even notice a dark spot on one frame for 1/30th of a second. So these drives are tuned to move past errors faster, putting the stream of data as top priority. Where desktop drives often cause stutters, these drives run smooth."


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## kschauwe (Sep 17, 2003)

I believe DVR spec drives don't do Thermal Calibration while drive is being written or read.


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## Soapm (May 9, 2007)

When I began here I noticed most people were upgrading with non DVR drives. I took that to mean better is really relitive and probably not noticable under normal circumstances so I went the cheap route and bought a regular desktop drive. YMMV


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

GkarRacer said:


> the price difference is not that much. I just ordered a 750GB DB35 from NextWarehouse for ~298.


Based on that price, the difference is about $100.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

HomeUser said:


> Quote from WeaKnees Seagate DB35 DVR Specific Hard Drives
> "Error Recovery: Desktop drives retry on errors to make sure that your Excel spreadsheet is exactly right - it's imperative. But when watching video, if one block of data is bad, you may not even notice a dark spot on one frame for 1/30th of a second. So these drives are tuned to move past errors faster, putting the stream of data as top priority. Where desktop drives often cause stutters, these drives run smooth."


*Only * if TiVo chooses to use it, which I doubt very much. You have to use a different command to access the hard drive. Otherwise, that feature is meaningless.


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## anonymuse (Nov 27, 2005)

Hmmm.....this has turned into an interesting conversation. Keep it coming....


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## Pauli (Mar 1, 2004)

c3 said:


> *Only * if TiVo chooses to use it, which I doubt very much. You have to use a different command to access the hard drive. Otherwise, that feature is meaningless.


It is my belief that the same low-level commands from an application can be programmed to behave differently in the hard drive's firmware. I don't have any specific knowledge of this, however -- it is only an assumption. Do you have any inside knowledge about this?


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## GkarRacer (Feb 26, 2003)

Looking at the Seagate brochure, this drive is quieter and uses less power to allow for smaller power supplies. So that's a big plus there. I'm sure the TiVo's power supply is minimal.



> Only if TiVo chooses to use it, which I doubt very much. You have to use a different command to access the hard drive. Otherwise, that feature is meaningless.


Considering the original drive is a Western Digital, that may very well be true. Apparently the drive has some built-in timing functions as well as software controlled, so it may still benefit from the streaming. Then again, maybe not.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Pauli said:


> It is my belief that the same low-level commands from an application can be programmed to behave differently in the hard drive's firmware. I don't have any specific knowledge of this, however -- it is only an assumption. Do you have any inside knowledge about this?


That is certainly possible, but not practical. Usually you have both critical and non-critical data on the same drive. Therefore, you need different commands to access each type of data. New commands have been defined in the ATA standard for this purpose (non-critical data/streaming video).


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## HomeUser (Jan 12, 2003)

c3 said:


> *Only * if TiVo chooses to use it, which I doubt very much. You have to use a different command to access the hard drive. Otherwise, that feature is meaningless.


 Yes, that is it exactly. The hi-level software tells the drive I want the data form this area. The drive attempts to retrieve the data and receives a CRC error *1. The firmware routine in the hard drives tries several times re-reading the same area only accepting 100% good data before reporting the error to the OS. Now the OS can decide weather the data is important enough to re-read. This delay in the firmware can starve the display buffer causing the playback to freeze.

*1 "Soft" CRC errors are considered normal even on new drives they are considered soft errors if the data can be read within n number of tries.

Read about it in the Seagate DB35 Technology Paper (PDF)


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## anonymuse (Nov 27, 2005)

Found this on Seagate:

DB35 Series drives include several Seagate innovations targeted at maintaining video stream integrity, reducing power consumption, minimizing noise and enhancing digital rights management strategies. Collectively referred to as DynaPlay technology, these innovations help manufacturers design and build leading edge DVRs and compete more effectively in the market:

 Time-limited commands - Improve stream integrity (as opposed to data integrity) through time-limited commands
 Advanced power management - Reduce power consumption and control component costs
 Seagate SoftSonic acoustics-reduction technology - Minimized operational noise
 DriveTrust technology to support Digital Rights Management - Provides the optional capability to lock the drive to the system on which it is installed

Okay, I should have RTFM, so sorry.

Now for a really dumb question--I know I need an IDE drive for my system. Is ATA/100 an IDE drive? (I know SATA is not, but all the Seagate DB35 interfaces are listed as SATA or ATA/100.)


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

For all practical purposes related to what we're talking about here, there are only two types of drives on the market: SATA and non-SATA. PATA==IDE==ATA


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## HomeUser (Jan 12, 2003)

anonymuse said:


> Now for a really dumb question--I know I need an IDE drive for my system. Is ATA/100 an IDE drive? (I know SATA is not, but all the Seagate DB35 interfaces are listed as SATA or ATA/100.)


Yes the ATA/100 drive is an backward compatible with IDE and EIDE. EIDE is what you want for a Series2 TiVo. I don't know which interface the Series1 actually has the EIDE should work there also.

As *c3* noted PATA, ATA/133 ATA166 are EIDE also. I don't think you can find the older IDE drives retail however.


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## Soapm (May 9, 2007)

anonymuse said:


> Found this on Seagate:
> 
> <snip... these innovations help manufacturers design and build leading edge DVRs and compete more effectively in the market:


I think this was the key that was mentioned earlier. If Tivo was designed to take advantage of these features then great. However, Tivo ship with WD so I don't think they utilize any of these advantages. As for lower power comsumption, what exactly does that mean when people are putting two regular drives in their boxes and the power supply last??? The question is do you need lower power consumption...


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## anonymuse (Nov 27, 2005)

Soapm said:


> I think this was the key that was mentioned earlier. If Tivo was designed to take advantage of these features then great. However, Tivo ship with WD so I don't think they utilize any of these advantages. As for lower power comsumption, what exactly does that mean when people are putting two regular drives in their boxes and the power supply last??? The question is do you need lower power consumption...


From my perspective, the option which seems to make the most difference is the optimized data stream (WD calls theirs SilkStream). I think after this conversation that's why I would choose a DVR-specific HD.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

anonymuse said:


> I think after this conversation that's why I would choose a DVR-specific HD.


I have not seen any data supporting that choice. TiVo works fine with standard desktop drives, even the S3. My selection would be based on noise, price, warranty, and power (heat), not any "optimized" DVR features. FWIW, all of my upgraded TiVos have WD drives.


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## anonymuse (Nov 27, 2005)

c3 said:


> I have not seen any data supporting that choice. TiVo works fine with standard desktop drives, even the S3. My selection would be based on noise, price, warranty, and power (heat), not any "optimized" DVR features. FWIW, all of my upgraded TiVos have WD drives.


It appears that they take advantage of the streaming capabilities and the reduced noise is beneficial also. I'm looking at spending about $100 and that will get me a Seagate DB35 320GB drive which is plenty for me.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Several years ago, when the DVR hard drives were introduced, one of the posters, who works for tivo, said the tivo software was written to work just as well with regular off the shelf drives as with the more expensive DVR drives.

Tivo has had a lot of software revisions since then but the only posters who think the DVR specific drives make a real difference are the vendors who sell them.

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1352711#post1352711


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## anonymuse (Nov 27, 2005)

lew said:


> Several years ago, when the DVR hard drives were introduced, one of the posters, who works for tivo, said the tivo software was written to work just as well with regular off the shelf drives as with the more expensive DVR drives.
> 
> Tivo has had a lot of software revisions since then but the only posters who think the DVR specific drives make a real difference are the vendors who sell them.
> 
> http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1352711#post1352711


So, does anyone know if DirectTivo's or Tivo's models actually take advantage of the improved stream integrity and utilize it?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

You can do a search, I don't think tivo has ever written code to specifically use any of the more expensive DVR specific drives. I can't think of any reason to assume tivo's software would be written to use features present in drives they neither use nor suggest customers use. Why would tivo use a command that isn't applicable for the drives they support? It looks like tivo has written their software to work great with cheaper, stock drives.

Save your $$$ or spend the same $$$ and buy a larger drive.



anonymuse said:


> So, does anyone know if DirectTivo's or Tivo's models actually take advantage of the improved stream integrity and utilize it?


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## anonymuse (Nov 27, 2005)

I've been actually looking at a cheap harddrive at OfficeMax right now due to this conversation since I'd like to be able to have a long weekend to play around.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

anonymuse said:


> I've seen recommendations on the board for using Seagate DB35 Series and Maxtor (which, BTW, Seagate owns now) Quickview drives since they are better suited for DVRs. I'm can't remember or find the Samsung and Western Digital models that people recommend at the moment.
> 
> Why are they "better" than other Seagate, Maxtor, or Samsung models?
> 
> ...


For TiVo use, we've not seen a noticable difference, except in one very specific circumstance. In other words, it depends.

For the most part, its a Marketing thing, and the DB35 drives are the same as the desktop drives except for some difference in how the firmware is tuned.

Depending upon the type of TiVo you have, and the types of drives you are using, you may or may not notice/experience any difference as a result of using a DB35 over some other type of drive.

One situation where you would definitely notice a difference is when comparing a Seagate Barracuda Desktop drive to a Seagate DB35 750GB drive. Why? The DB35 is quieter, and the Barracude happens to be a *particularly* noisy drive. Guess what? Its just a firmware difference - the Barracuda is tuned for faster seek times and is noisier as a result. Guess what? DVR's like the TiVo don't need that type of random access - so the DB35's are quieter because the seek times are reduced (and you won't notice a performance difference on your TiVo because the performance of ALL drives is more than sufficient for all of the current TiVo implementations.

The reality of the situation is that it really is not going to matter what type of drive you use, as long as its reliable, and not mishandled in any way. All of these "features" that are claimed by the drive manufacturer's may actually make differences, but they are all incremental, and most likely won't make a difference to you as a consumer. They are important though because its an indication that the disk drive manufacturer's (expecially those who are Marketing DVR-specific drives) are recognizing some slightly different needs within the DVR market-segment and are putting some resources into trying to do the right thing and convince OEM's (like TiVo) to pick their products over a competitors.

But in the end, time and experience has revealed that it just doesn't make a difference... we've used Quantum, Samsung, Western Digital, Maxtor and Seagate drives in our kits. We've had "bad batches" of drives from practically every vendor, and although I have my own personal preference based upon my own personal experience, they are all acceptable for use in your TiVo.

Hope that helps,
Lou


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Lou--Thanks for providing information based on your extensive experience. I never read any credible information that suggests tivo function better with the more expensive drives.

The OP, and anyone else, should check the warranty terms. Most companies only provide a one year warranty, a few may be 3-5 years, and some OEM drives might only have a 90 warranty.



tivoupgrade said:


> For TiVo use, we've not seen a noticable difference, except in one very specific circumstance. In other words, it depends.
> 
> For the most part, its a Marketing thing, and the DB35 drives are the same as the desktop drives except for some difference in how the firmware is tuned.
> 
> ...


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## flyersfan (Nov 11, 2002)

If the only benefit is quieter operation, then the added cost (a $15 premium for a 250gb drive at the time of purchase) of the DB35 was worth it. We went from a chattering drive that you could hear all the time to a whisper-quiet drive that can barely be heard with your ear right next to the case.


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## anonymuse (Nov 27, 2005)

I really appreciate everyone's input on this matter. Thanks!


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

tivoupgrade said:


> For the most part, its a Marketing thing, and the DB35 drives are the same as the desktop drives except for some difference in how the firmware is tuned.
> 
> Depending upon the type of TiVo you have, and the types of drives you are using, you may or may not notice/experience any difference as a result of using a DB35 over some other type of drive.


I agree 100% with this - the only advantage of the DB35 for TiVo (Series 1 as that's all we have in the UK) use is the quieter seeks.

However, my experience of these drives when compared to the now discontinued (but still patchily available at premium prices) Samsung HA250JC 'media drive' is that the Samsung is quieter, cooler, more reliable and less prone to hum-inducing vibration than the Seagate. This is due mainly to the fact that the HA250JC is a 5400rpm drive, but the newer 7200rpm T133 series are also pretty good in these respects although they are not marketed explicity as 'media' drives like the DB35.

FWIW, I have now stopped supplying Seagate drives altogether for the time being as I found that the newer 7200.9 and 7200.10 series drives seemed much more likely to aggravate the helium sound bug than any other drive I've ever used. Add to that the fact that for some reason it's not possible to use a pair of new Seagate drives (even DB35s) in a Series 1 TiVo - although Seagate have a TiVo of mine and are looking into this at the moment - and you will see why I prefer to stick with Samsung


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Yes, the Samsung drives are quite good and over time, we've found them to be more reliable than every other drive out there. Unfortunately, they do not have a concerted Marketing effort behind them for DVR use, AND, they only have drives up to 500GB. That puts them a little behind the curve when it comes to Seagate and Western Digital. But with that said, we've been using them for about five years now, and they have always been great.


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## surfnutbry (Jan 21, 2004)

tivoupgrade said:


> One situation where you would definitely notice a difference is when comparing a Seagate Barracuda Desktop drive to a Seagate DB35 750GB drive. Why? The DB35 is quieter, and the Barracude happens to be a *particularly* noisy drive. Guess what? Its just a firmware difference - the Barracuda is tuned for faster seek times and is noisier as a result.
> Lou


Lou do you know if a Barracude can have its firmware updated to make it quieter like a DB35? Also if it can, do you know where I can find the update? I wish Seagate would make their acoustics adjustable like other manufactures.

Bryan


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

surfnutbry said:


> Lou do you know if a Barracude can have its firmware updated to make it quieter like a DB35? Also if it can, do you know where I can find the update? I wish Seagate would make their acoustics adjustable like other manufactures.
> 
> Bryan


I do know, but I'm sorry, I can't give you any details on that; I'm just not at liberty to discuss it, especially in public. What I can say is that the answer to that is a little more complicated than you might initially expect, and there are some legitimate reasons why the information is controlled.

Wish I could be more specific and I share your wishes on that last comment.

Lou


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Seagate does have utility to make acoustic adjustments, but it's not publicly available, and those who have it cannot legally disclose it. Why? Because Seagate does not want to license the patent.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

Just to reiterate what others have said. The end user is not given easy access to the acoustic management control on modern Seagate drives, so in Seagate's case the DVR-specifiic DB35 is preferable to their standard drive if only for the default acoustic setting. The rest of the manufacturers use an industry standard method that can universally be accessed by a utility such as the Hitachi Feature Tool. In that case just about any drive can be made quiet. This utility should be run on all non-Seagate drives.


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## anonymuse (Nov 27, 2005)

I've had my non-DB35 Seagate in for a day now and can't tell any sound difference. I'm just way happy to have put in 300GB for less than $90 right from a local store.


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## Soapm (May 9, 2007)

anonymuse said:


> I've had my non-DB35 Seagate in for a day now and can't tell any sound difference. I'm just way happy to have put in 300GB for less than $90 right from a local store.


I second this, I have a standard 7200.10 I just put in my box and with the cover off the Tivo I can't hear the drive at 6 inches. I don't hear it with my ear on the Tivo with the cover on. I think quiter is a relitive term???


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