# Journeyman 12/19/07 (S1E13) "Perfidia"



## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

Wow, just wow. What a great episode. 

Screw NBC, they don't even deserve this show. It's too good for them.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

All I can say is, BURN IN HELL NBC!!!!

A great episode in so many ways. It's too bad that it may not have a life.


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

What a great episode! I can get on the "Burn in Hell NBC" band wagon. This is such a great show and this show explained so much. But, if this was the last episode I get to see, then I can say they ended it in the right way. No cliff hangers, which is the way it should be.


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## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

What an awesome way to go out. I wish that it had been obvious that Evan was born under the comet. His age didn't match up well with Dan or "old" Livia.

I'm not sure how Elliot Langley would have interpreted Livia's status. We don't really know if her 1948 self lived to 2007 without traveling, only that she can travel to 2007.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Sad to see it go. 

tk


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

.... Dan Vasser never returned home....





 Couldn't resist. Man, I'm bummed this show won't be around. Perhaps if they kept it on the shelf, and let Medium lead into it, it would have been able to make it.

Oh, and the "love of his life" was the (unrequited) love of mine in high school. I asked Joanna Going out once, but she shot me down.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Fantastic final show (assuming it isn't coming back). It left me pretty darned satisfied. But with enough questions to make a comeback interesting.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

If this is the end, I'm at least not as pissed off as I thought I would be. But this show will be sorely missed by me.


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

Welcome about the Burn in Hell NBC bandwagon plenty of room left for everyone to come aboard! I thought this episode was awesome and I am sad to see it go.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

This show was so good that it made me pissed all over again that it's over. 

That was a cute bit at the beginning with Katie wanting to "watch" and Dan getting shy and unable to leap. It reminded me of the time my GF in college wanted to watch me pee and I couldn't.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

WinBear said:


> What an awesome way to go out. I wish that it had been obvious that Evan was born under the comet. His age didn't match up well with Dan or "old" Livia.


Well, I don't think he was in the "proper" place in his own timeline. He ended up in the looney bin after leaping naked into a public place and then insisting that he was a traveller, and then the tranqs kept him from leaving.

I _did_ keep waiting for Dan to ask him what his birthday was though. That seemed like _such_ an obvious question to ask, given the information he had at that point.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

A good ending, if it has to end. The last scene or two gave me the feeling of being added at a point at which they knew they needed to wrap it up but I could just be reading too much into it.  With 15 minutes to go it felt there were more questions and no answers but they managed to wrap it up nicely with a suitable air of mystery.

As I've said (and others) before many top British TV shows don't have 13 episodes EVER. Sometimes it's better to let it run it's story and go out strong, instead of devolving into something that's a shadow of it's former self.


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## jstack (Mar 26, 2005)

Another amazing episode. This show will be sorely missed.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> Oh, and the "love of his life" was the (unrequited) love of mine in high school. I asked Joanna Going out once, but she shot me down.


Maybe you should have learned to salsa. 

The last time Dan and Livia saw each other, he said something about having the feeling they weren't going to see each other for a long time. I took that to mean Dan had some kind of insight that he wasn't going to be "traveling" anytime soon. Yet he jumped at the end of the show, which we have to assume was shortly after the events of this ep. What was up with that?

I loved this episode and this show. Every time a commercial came up I dreaded hitting FF because it meant the hour was going to end even sooner (but I still didn't watch any commercials). It really would be great if they could figure out a way to bring this back, but if it doesn't, I suppose they did a decent job of tying it up.

But since it's likely done forever: BURN IN HELL, NBC!!!


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Maybe you should have learned to salsa.
> 
> The last time Dan and Livia saw each other, he said something about having the feeling they weren't going to see each other for a long time. I took that to mean Dan had some kind of insight that he wasn't going to be "traveling" anytime soon. Yet he jumped at the end of the show, which we have to assume was shortly after the events of this ep. What was up with that?


Dan was Livia's "assignment." But now he had learned enough and gotten the hang of it that he would be able to do things on his own now, without her assistance.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> The last time Dan and Livia saw each other, he said something about having the feeling they weren't going to see each other for a long time. I took that to mean Dan had some kind of insight that he wasn't going to be "traveling" anytime soon. Yet he jumped at the end of the show, which we have to assume was shortly after the events of this ep. What was up with that?


I think he meant traveling with her.

You think that if Evan knew that he could unexpectedly leap, he'd stop sleeping in the nude.
And I'd think that Dan would want to carry old money with him at all times as well.

Oh, well. I guess the show was too good for the general public.


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## Bulldog7 (Oct 6, 2002)

busyba said:


> This show was so good that it made me pissed all over again that it's over.
> 
> That was a cute bit at the beginning with Katie wanting to "watch" and Dan getting shy and unable to leap. It reminded me of the time my GF in college wanted to watch me pee and I couldn't.


TMI in spades, but I do agree that the episode was really, really good. It worked as a finale and as a stepping stone to more if the powers at NBC (and all of the writers and producers, too) pull their heads out of their rearward facing orifices.

If they don't, can I jump on the BURN IN HELL wagon too, please?? Thanks!!


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Oh, well. I guess the show was too good for the general public.


+1

If only one of us could go back in time and prevent the existence of Blue Collar Comedy...then maybe it would have been picked up.


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## bpurcell (Mar 16, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> The last time Dan and Livia saw each other, he said something about having the feeling they weren't going to see each other for a long time. I took that to mean Dan had some kind of insight that he wasn't going to be "traveling" anytime soon. Yet he jumped at the end of the show, which we have to assume was shortly after the events of this ep. What was up with that?


I felt this was a wink at the audience that they knew this was the end of the show.


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## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

Their best episode of the bunch.

One nitpick: These writers love making their characters annoying. First the wife was super annoying for a few episodes before becoming palatable. Then I wanted to punch the brother in the face (insert number of times) for a few episodes before he calmed down. And then we had to endure the annoying sister-in-law. Oh, and I almost forgot that the doctor-girlfriend doing stuff like digging in other people's medicine cabinets.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I'm not going to piss all over the show, because I did like it, especially after a shaky start.

But it wasn't the best show on Earth either. I totally see why it's just not some people's cup of tea.

First, it's Sci-fi.
Second, it's Sci-fi.
Third, and most importantly, it's Sci-fi.

As a rule, that just doesn't go over well with the general public, with obvious exceptions.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> But it wasn't the best show on Earth either.


No show is, so far.  But a lot of people really liked this one.


Peter000 said:


> I totally see why it's just not some people's cup of tea.
> 
> First, it's Sci-fi.
> Second, it's Sci-fi.
> ...


I'm not so sure of that. Evidently the networks think the general public wants sci-fi, because they keep buying sci-fi shows every year. Now maybe they're just stupid to buy them, but I think the real problem is, after they've bought them they don't know what to do with them (re scheduling and marketing.)


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

BIH NBC!!!

What a great ending (yes, I'm a realist). They did a good job of wrapping the show up. I especially like at the very end when Dan let his wife see him leave. It was touching.

I think if they were to continue this show there would be enough to finish out the first season and maybe do a second. Any more than that and it might get old.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

danplaysbass said:


> I think if they were to continue this show there would be enough to finish out the first season and maybe do a second. Any more than that and it might get old.


I can see this show easily go at least 4 or 5 seasons, if they wanted to. It can go in virtually any direction storywise, and time travel allows for very diverse settings and characters.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I can't really say burn in hell...I'm satisfied with the ending. It was a great run for a show I really enjoyed. If it came back for a season two, most people would just complain about how its not as good as season one. That's not to say if they decided to bring it back I wouldn't watch, but the package as a whole was enjoyed and beautifully wrapped up at the end. 

I'll be buying it on DVD for sure.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

busyba said:


> Well, I don't think he was in the "proper" place in his own timeline. He ended up in the looney bin after leaping naked into a public place and then insisting that he was a traveller, and then the tranqs kept him from leaving.


But the tape of them dancing was from 2004 and he and his wife seemed to be the same ages they were in 2007, so I think 2004 and 2007 were both current for him. I do agree though that Evan's timeline was very confusing.

And what was with Dan not being able to travel until Evan died? How did that figure in to the scientist saying the numbers were shrinking? Any ideas?

tk


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

I'm also glad they didn't leave us with a major cliffhanger that would never be resolved. That would have really been annoying.


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## headroll (Jan 20, 2003)

pendragn said:


> And what was with Dan not being able to travel until Evan died? How did that figure in to the scientist saying the numbers were shrinking? Any ideas?
> 
> tk


Maybe it (the ability) has to be transferred from one traveler to the next, but must be done by proximity.

Evan died (near) where Dan first leaped. Maybe travelers are dying and not transferring their abilities successfully.

This may also lead to the reasoning why so many people were born on the same days, but only a few are travelers.

-Roll


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

Someone else said if it followed Medium it might have made it. I don't know if it's the show it followed so much as the show(s) it went up against. While I will never understand what people like so much about CSI: Miami, it's ratings are always high and any show pitted against it has death written on it before it ever airs the first episode.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

A great end to a great show. RIP, Journeyman. BIH, NBC.

My fingers are crossed, but I'm not holding out much hope, that the strike will cause NBC to decide to order new episodes next season after all, and that the actors will not have already all moved on to other things by then.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

headroll said:


> Maybe it (the ability) has to be transferred from one traveler to the next, but must be done by proximity.
> 
> Evan died (near) where Dan first leaped. Maybe travelers are dying and not transferring their abilities successfully.


He died near Dan after Dan and Livia changed his original death. Originally he died in the home of the lady and husband, and Dad still jumped.


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## headroll (Jan 20, 2003)

Bryanmc said:


> He died near Dan after Dan and Livia changed his original death. Originally he died in the home of the lady and husband, and Dad still jumped.


But the 'final' reality places them close to each other. Maybe Dan needed to save Evan long enough to allow himself to be near him during his death. His assignment was not to save Evan per se, but to have him die under the correct conditions so he himself could become a traveler.

-Roll


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Kamakzie said:


> Welcome about the Burn in Hell NBC bandwagon plenty of room left for everyone to come aboard! ....


Here I come...

*BIHNBC!!!!!!*

I could easily see, aside from this being resuscitated, some kind of spinoff with some, but not all of the characters (depending on who is available).


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## bubba1972 (Mar 28, 2005)

I am so sad to see this show go. I have one question. After one of Dan's jumps he asks Livia the date as soon as she showed up and she knew it. How was that?


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

Probably useless to go on about plot theories, but what the heck, here goes:

I think Evan was "put down" for lack of a better term by whomever is controlling the traveling. Langley seemed to indicate people were watching, and warned Dan about how powerful his ability was. 

It seems to me Evan was right, and by introducing the dancing and mentioning Perfidia, he actually did cause some sort of recognition in his wife. At the very moment she glanced at him knowingly, he died.

I think that was the purpose of Dan seeing the news story about the Supervisor and his girlfriend breaking up. 

Perhaps Evan caused her to remember, or even merged two timelines, and for that, he was killed.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

bubba1972 said:


> I am so sad to see this show go. I have one question. After one of Dan's jumps he asks Livia the date as soon as she showed up and she knew it. How was that?


I noticed that too! I said to my wife, "how comes she always knows the date"?


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

stiffi said:


> Probably useless to go on about plot theories, but what the heck, here goes:
> 
> I think Evan was "put down" for lack of a better term by whomever is controlling the traveling. Langley seemed to indicate people were watching, and warned Dan about how powerful his ability was.
> 
> ...


That is a very interesting and intriguing theory. I like it.


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

stiffi said:


> I noticed that too! I said to my wife, "how comes she always knows the date"?


I think it just may be a matter of her traveling long enough that she automatically gets the date the moment she arrives. She looks for it and figures it out some how. Dan was doing this when he traveled and didn't see Olivia, but when he saw her the moment he popped in he just asked her what the date was.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Just wanted to mention that the predictions of the Doctor/Girlfriend playing a significant role went unfulfilled 

I am more and more convinced that they wrote this episode AFTER learning it was likely they would at least be out for a long break. In some ways it didn't flow.

Again I'd love to see more shows have 1 strong 13 or so episode life, I am satisfied with the ending and fear it coming back and being nowhere near as good.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

headroll said:


> But the 'final' reality places them close to each other. Maybe Dan needed to save Evan long enough to allow himself to be near him during his death. His assignment was not to save Evan per se, but to have him die under the correct conditions so he himself could become a traveler.
> 
> -Roll


This also goes along with Dan and Livia saying good-bye. Her mission was to make sure that Dan was there to inherit the time travel abilities maybe. It seemed a bit of a dual mission...teach him about his purpose and guide him to make sure he gets the power to begin with.


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## rkester (Jan 10, 2005)

I really wish I had recorded all of the episodes to keep. I loved this show and will miss it.

NBC needs to pull their heads out of their hulu filled asses and quit acting like babies. Good shows are rare and they just put down a perfectly good horse here.


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## needo (Jul 9, 2003)

I couldn't read the writing on the bottom of the notebook at the end of the episode. What did it say?


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

needo said:


> I couldn't read the writing on the bottom of the notebook at the end of the episode. What did it say?


Something about not caring I think "I just don't care anymore"


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

stiffi said:


> Something about not caring I think "I just don't care anymore"


Thank you! I couldn't read it either!


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

stiffi said:


> Something about not caring I think "I just don't care anymore"


Which makes me think since he did not care in doing the time travel anymore, etc. then he was killed off and Dan took his place since he would care. Also it shows why at the end of the episode/show Dan told his wife that he won't stop doing it knowing that if he did then he might be killed off. Just some possible thoughts about it, maybe not right but that is what is great about this show, it makes you think and offers some great discussions.


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## headroll (Jan 20, 2003)

Anyone have screencaps of Evans Journal. Could be an interesting read.

-Roll


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I thought it was in reference to the show not being picked up.

ETA: I see that I smeeked. I don't care anymore



DevdogAZ said:


> Maybe you should have learned to salsa.
> 
> The last time Dan and Livia saw each other, he said something about having the feeling they weren't going to see each other for a long time. I took that to mean Dan had some kind of insight that he wasn't going to be "traveling" anytime soon. Yet he jumped at the end of the show, which we have to assume was shortly after the events of this ep. What was up with that?
> 
> ...


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

headroll said:


> Anyone have screencaps of Evans Journal. Could be an interesting read.


One of the pages refers to a person named Shelton. Moon Bloodgood's character in Day Break was named Rita Shelton.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Quick question: Would you pay to see a Journeyman movie?


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

wprager said:


> Quick question: Would you pay to see a Journeyman movie?


Heck Yeah!

Is this Kevin?


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

wprager said:


> Quick question: Would you pay to see a Journeyman movie?


As long as all the original cast was in it and had a compelling storyline to follow, yes.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stiffi said:


> I think Evan was "put down" for lack of a better term by whomever is controlling the traveling. Langley seemed to indicate people were watching, and warned Dan about how powerful his ability was.


I don't think Langley was talking about the "people" behind the time traveling; I think he was talking about the government agency(s) who are trying to investigate/control time traveling.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think Langley was talking about the "people" behind the time traveling; I think he was talking about the government agency(s) who are trying to investigate/control time traveling.


Dan has mentioned several times he wants to find out "who is doing this"

Evan also said "whomever is pulling our strings" indicating at least he thought it was some sort of controlled project.

Just saying there is some precedent to at least postulate that there is someone or something controlling the traveling.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

stiffi said:


> Dan has mentioned several times he wants to find out "who is doing this"
> 
> Evan also said "whomever is pulling our strings" indicating at least he thought it was some sort of controlled project.
> 
> Just saying there is some precedent to at least postulate that there is someone or something controlling the traveling.


Langley seemed pretty honest though when he said he wasn't even sure if there was someone in control of it.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Here's the one (admittedly minor) thing that bugged me about the nature of the leaping....

1) Presumably there is some kind of intelligent controller at work, since the leaps are to specific times and places for definite purposes. 2) Since this is time travel, if there's a destination you need to get to, it really doesn't matter when you leave; you'll arrive when you are supposed to arrive.

So why the hell doesn't the "intelligent controller" be a little more careful about the circumstances under which he sends the traveller off?! Like, if Dan is with his kid at a street fair, why not wait until the kid is safe with someone else before you make Dan leap? I mean, what's the rush, he's travelling through _time_. 

I realize that from a storytelling standpoint, inconvience is far more interesting, but it just bugged me a bit, that's all.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

I can only assume that if the story had continued, and the producers had been allowed to flesh it out properly, this would have been explained. In other time travel stories, there are "windows" within the space-time continuum, and when the appropriate window between the traveler and the destination opens, THAT is when the journey must happen. If you miss the window, the opportunity is lost.

See! It's easy to write your way around such difficulities. Neither Livia, nor Evan, could control when the journeys happened to them.


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## headroll (Jan 20, 2003)

Church AV Guy said:


> I can only assume that if the story had continued, and the producers had been allowed to flesh it out properly, this would have been explained. In other time travel stories, there are "windows" within the space-time continuum, and when the appropriate window between the traveler and the destination opens, THAT is when the journey must happen. If you miss the window, the opportunity is lost.
> 
> See! It's easy to write your way around such difficulities. Neither Livia, nor Evan, could control when the journeys happened to them.


But Livia didn't sleep in the nude (unfortunately)

-Roll


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> In other time travel stories, there are "windows" within the space-time continuum, and when the appropriate window between the traveler and the destination opens, THAT is when the journey must happen. If you miss the window, the opportunity is lost.


That's how I always assumed it would be explained too. There was some discussion about it in a thread for a previous episode.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

stiffi said:


> Probably useless to go on about plot theories, but what the heck, here goes:
> 
> I think Evan was "put down" for lack of a better term by whomever is controlling the traveling. Langley seemed to indicate people were watching, and warned Dan about how powerful his ability was.
> 
> ...


That was my take on it, too. I thought that also explained why she was so distraught as he was collapsed on the floor. Her distress seemed to go beyond "get help for this stranger I just met and shared a dance with" and was at a deeper "someone very important to me needs help - HELP!" level.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

busyba said:


> Here's the one (admittedly minor) thing that bugged me about the nature of the leaping....
> 
> 1) Presumably there is some kind of intelligent controller at work, since the leaps are to specific times and places for definite purposes. 2) Since this is time travel, if there's a destination you need to get to, it really doesn't matter when you leave; you'll arrive when you are supposed to arrive.
> 
> ...


Here's how I've rationalized it in my mind.

Think of time running not in a straight line, but as a path that winds around, running hairpin turns and curley cues. And let's say that you can only time travel in a straight horizontal line. You'd have to wait until the right moment when you're parallel or "even" with your destination before you leap. That's what I think is happened here. Or what the thought process was.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

so in theory if he changed it from the guy getting hit by the car, that newspaper disappears from his pocket right?


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

newsposter said:


> so in theory if he changed it from the guy getting hit by the car, that newspaper disappears from his pocket right?


It depends.

Dan is obviously immune from the changes in the timeline that he causes; he rememebered Zack and didn't know his daughter when all that happened. So the question is, what's the nature of the immunity? Is it something inside of Dan, or is it that whoever or whatever jumps off the rails of time is no longer bound by causality?

If it's the latter, then the newspaper now exists outisde of the timeline it used to be in and will not be affected by the fact that the guy no longer got hit by the car.

To put it in scientific terms, it's all wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

He still had a picture of Zach in his pocket after he erased him, so I think anything on his person stays immune as well.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Bryanmc said:


> He still had a picture of Zach in his pocket after he *erased him*


Wow. Hearing it in those terms gave me chills.


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## headroll (Jan 20, 2003)

busyba said:


> Wow. Hearing it in those terms gave me chills.


Just makes me think of Back To The Future.

"Erased ... From Existence"

-Roll


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Bryanmc said:


> He still had a picture of Zach in his pocket after he erased him, so I think anything on his person stays immune as well.


Except for citrus...for some reason, it explodes


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Love the show and most any story involving time travel, but the more you discuss it and ask questions, the more obvious it becomes that time travel is impossible. (I'm sure lots of you disagree with me)


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Love the show and most any story involving time travel, but the more you discuss it and ask questions, the more obvious it becomes that time travel is impossible. (I'm sure lots of you disagree with me)


Time travel is not impossible. Everyone does it all the time...but we only know how to travel FORWARD in time.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> Love the show and most any story involving time travel, but the more you discuss it and ask questions, the more obvious it becomes that time travel is impossible. (I'm sure lots of you disagree with me)


You're gonna change that opinion when I come over and talk to you yesterday.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Loved the show and the finale, but I agree that they did keep on introducting annoying characters.

From Jack's GF, to Dan & Jack's mom, to the wife's sister. Enough already.

When the audience knows that Dan's not mentally ill, and a good husband, we don't really need new character after new character to say he's mentally ill and a bad husband.

Despite that little nitpick, BIH NBC.

-smak-


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

I lump the FBI agent in the annoying character pile too. Dan dropped off all the money back in to the past, the FBI guy should not have had a reason to trail Dan. If Dan had been really creative at all, he should have mentioned that he won the bill while high stakes gambling and kept it as a memto of when he decided to stop. Many of the bills should have been traced to that game, he WAS there, so no case, no reason to investigate.

The FBI guy said it was money that trips up Journeymen, but Evan and Livia both said sad it was the shoes, right? FBI guy not so smart.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Church AV Guy said:


> I lump the FBI agent in the annoying character pile too. Dan dropped off all the money back in to the past, the FBI guy should not have had a reason to trail Dan. If Dan had been really creative at all, he should have mentioned that he won the bill while high stakes gambling and kept it as a memto of when he decided to stop. Many of the bills should have been traced to that game, he WAS there, so no case, no reason to investigate.
> 
> The FBI guy said it was money that trips up Journeymen, but Evan and Livia both said sad it was the shoes, right? FBI guy not so smart.


The FBI guy was totally rogue, operating an illegal investigation. The money was just a pretense to be able to investigate him overtly. What he was after was time travellers.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> The FBI guy said it was money that trips up Journeymen, but Evan and Livia both said sad it was the shoes, right? FBI guy not so smart.


That was just their personal observations. It's like asking someone wearing a polo shirt, dockers, & birkinstocks who has a goatee if they work in IT. It's the "uniform". Someone else might say no, it's the ponytail, it's a giveaway every time. 

Greg


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Funny, I don't remember this past September as being quite so...sepia.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

trainman said:


> Funny, I don't remember this past September as being quite so...sepia.


No no no. Time travel has a temporary distortion effect on the cone photoreceptors of the eye.

Silly boy, didn't they teach you ANYTHING in biology class?!?


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

trainman said:


> Funny, I don't remember this past September as being quite so...sepia.


Hmmmm, Larry Craig on the TV, must be September 2007.


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## ebf (Mar 21, 2005)

headroll said:


> But the 'final' reality places them close to each other. Maybe Dan needed to save Evan long enough to allow himself to be near him during his death. His assignment was not to save Evan per se, but to have him die under the correct conditions so he himself could become a traveler.
> 
> -Roll





Bryanmc said:


> He died near Dan after Dan and Livia changed his original death. Originally he died in the home of the lady and husband, and Dad still jumped.


I thought Evan was hit by a car jay-walking the first time? Or was that the second time?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> Except for citrus...for some reason, it explodes


*chuckle* that was actually one of the questions I was hoping they were going to answer!!!!

I'm usually quick to respond to the Journeyman threads, but I wanted time to let this sink in as an ending to see how I felt before I went and offered my opinions. Having 24 hours behind it, I'm going to give my vote that I'm satisfied with the answers they gave the loyal viewers, they didn't answer everything, but they certainly pointed us the right way.

As per my usual disclaimer, they got me to cry, twice, first was when Dan said he'd always come home and katie said she'd leave the light on, and then the final scene where he knows he's about to jump, and he whispers her name so she can watch him, gawd.. I'm such a sap, I'm getty all welled up just typing it.. (I'm a sucker for anyone tugging on the ole heart..)

And I really liked the fact that we spent the 1st half of the episode wondering if Evan was the real deal or not, but in the end we knew, and his sacrificing his love so she could live, talk about going "off mission" I think that's the grand daddy of them, so no wonder he got punished in so many ways.

:up:

Diane


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

ebf said:


> I thought Evan was hit by a car jay-walking the first time? Or was that the second time?


First time was getting hit while jay-walking. Dan convinced him not to jay-walk that day, so the next time he got killed by the security people.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

The only nitpick I had with this episode, is that Livia called Dan on his iPhone to let him know that his past self was on his way. Wouldn't his past self have gotten that call since he ALSO has the exact same iPhone?


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> The only nitpick I had with this episode, is that Livia called Dan on his iPhone to let him know that his past self was on his way. Wouldn't his past self have gotten that call since he ALSO has the exact same iPhone?


Damn you nitpicker!!


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## kmcorbett (Dec 7, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> The only nitpick I had with this episode, is that Livia called Dan on his iPhone to let him know that his past self was on his way. Wouldn't his past self have gotten that call since he ALSO has the exact same iPhone?


In cases of cloned cell phones, I've heard the carrier routing systems will pick one or the other but not both.

/kmc


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

kmcorbett said:


> In cases of cloned cell phones, I've heard the carrier routing systems will pick one or the other but not both.
> 
> /kmc


And now that we think about it-how does Livia have a working cell phone in 2007. Did she invest some money back in the 40s to pay for an AT&T Family Plan in the future?


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## ZooCaretaker (May 22, 2007)

busyba said:


> So why the hell doesn't the "intelligent controller" be a little more careful about the circumstances under which he sends the traveller off?! Like, if Dan is with his kid at a street fair, why not wait until the kid is safe with someone else before you make Dan leap? I mean, what's the rush, he's travelling through _time_.


I think it's something Dan had to learn to control. He's being called .... like a phone call or a kid calling him...and he must answer, but at first he couldn't control when he went, so he was just wisked away. But as the show progressed, he knew when he was going and was able to duck away.... and in the final episodes we saw him taking a last drink before travelling .... and in the final scene, he was sitting in the chair all dressed and ready to go.



Peter000 said:


> The only nitpick I had with this episode, is that Livia called Dan on his iPhone to let him know that his past self was on his way. Wouldn't his past self have gotten that call since he ALSO has the exact same iPhone?


So do we know when Dan got his iPhone? Did he have it the first time he leaped? If not, maybe... he got it with a brand new number so Livia was only calling his present self. Can't figure where Livia got the cel phone, though.

I know it doesn't make sense to propose wild tangents any more but it's still fun to think. Langley said the numbers were dwindling to which Dan replied there was one other... It's been proposed that one can only journey during their lifetime. If Livia and Dan won't be seeing each other for a while, maybe Livia's present day life is ending. Now if there is a master puppeteer pulling all the strings, maybe they need the travelers to be alive in the present to be able to send them to the past or (in Livia's case) pull them to the future.

It was a great ending with the perfect amount of questions answered and left open. The more I think about it, the more I realize how many potential plot twists there could have been -- but as it is right now, Journeyman was/is a phenomenal 13 episodes. I'd definately pay to see a movie and for the DVD! I'm gonna miss it.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

All I can say is what I've said before. The demise of the show is the fault of NBC for marketing it as a new Quantum Leap complete with a far more attractive 'Al'. But that's just not really a fair comparison. I will say that the ending had a very Quantum Leap acceptance of the mission type ending.


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

atrac said:


> +1
> 
> If only one of us could go back in time and prevent the existence of Blue Collar Comedy...then maybe it would have been picked up.


No, I'd want to go back to a time before someone got the great idea for Who Wants to be a Millionaire or Survivor and change _that_ timeline! Millionaire is really when TV took a turn for the worse IMHO...

Great episode with an ending that could stand alone as a finale or left a few open-ended things for possible continuation.

Couldn't help but believe the guy from Livermore is really a bad guy. Like he was the one who wants to use and manipulate the travelers. I think Dan sensed that too and that's why he didn't tell him about Livia.

As to the person who pointed out Bristish shows go out while they still on top instead of waiting until they were just a shell of their former selves - _Scrubs_ immediately came to mind for me.

If this show falls to the wayside for more reality crap or something else appealing to the masses, I'm definitely on the BIH NBC wagon.

Cheryl


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Sirius Black said:


> All I can say is what I've said before. The demise of the show is the fault of NBC for marketing it as a new Quantum Leap complete with a far more attractive 'Al'. But that's just not really a fair comparison. I will say that the ending had a very Quantum Leap acceptance of the mission type ending.


It's funny, when it first aired these threads were FILLED with Quantum Leap comparisons that to me came completely out of left field. I never saw QL in this show, and I never saw QL in the marketing; I just saw it in people talking about the show. So if you're going to blame Quantum Leap for the show's demise, AFAIC it's not NBC's fault and it's not the show's fault, it's the fault of unimaginative people who have to say "X is the new Y" but faced with an X that's like nothing they've ever seen before.

And I think that's the REAL problem: Like nothing they've ever seen before.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

speedcouch said:


> No, I'd want to go back to a time before someone got the great idea for Who Wants to be a Millionaire or Survivor and change _that_ timeline! Millionaire is really when TV turn a turn for the worse IMHO...


I wish they'd at least have been honest about it.

"Who Wants to be a Millionaire in 40 Years?" would've been more accurate. Probably would've kept a lot of people from caring, too.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

speedcouch said:


> Couldn't help but believe the guy from Livermore is really a bad guy. Like he was the one who want to use and manipulate the travelers. I think Dan sensed that too and that's why he didn't tell him about Livia.


There's certainly something more there. After all, Langley called Dan while Dan was in the past, too.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...And I think that's the REAL problem: Like nothing they've ever seen before.


So true, Rob. They had NO CLUE how to handle this show, promote it, or slot it.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

dswallow said:


> I wish they'd at least have been honest about it.
> 
> "Who Wants to be a Millionaire in 40 Years?" would've been more accurate. Probably would've kept a lot of people from caring, too.


Actually, Millionaire gave a check for the full amount. There was no installment plan for that show.

...and Millionaire was NOT when TV went downhill - it was down a long time before that show. It wasn't the show that sucked, it was the fact that ABC had to run it in EVERY free space they had until everyone was so sick of it. The show itself was actually pretty good.

With the writers' strike and reality TV being cheap and not requiring writers, expect a LOT more of this in the coming months.


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## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

I'd like to explore the Langley angle a little more. Is he on the outside but has "some" info? I didn't like that he couldn't tell Dan who was "pulling the strings". I think he knew but didn't say. 
Leaving that part unresolved kinda bugged me.


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## Royster (May 24, 2002)

dswallow said:


> "Who Wants to be a Millionaire in 40 Years?" would've been more accurate. Probably would've kept a lot of people from caring, too.


Are you telling me that the Million Dollars was *an annuity* and not a lump sum?

/I wonder if those annuities are in my annuity block.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

busyba said:


> To put it in scientific terms, it's all wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.


Nice! :up:

Funny, when Langley was talking to Dan in the elevator, mentioning how Dan was the last remaining journeyman (apparently unaware of Olivia), I thought to myself, "ah, so he's the last of the time lords!"


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> The only nitpick I had with this episode, is that Livia called Dan on his iPhone to let him know that his past self was on his way. Wouldn't his past self have gotten that call since he ALSO has the exact same iPhone?


If you're going to nitpick that, explain how she had a cell phone in the first place. She looked like she had just gotten out of the shower and had no time to properly dress, but she has a phone?


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## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

tivogurl said:


> If you're going to nitpick that, explain how she had a cell phone in the first place. She looked like she had just gotten out of the shower and had no time to properly dress, but she has a phone?


You know what... you're right!! That's it, I'm never watching another new episode again!!!!


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

tivogurl said:


> If you're going to nitpick that, explain how she had a cell phone in the first place. She looked like she had just gotten out of the shower and had no time to properly dress, but she has a phone?


Maybe she borrowed it from someone on the street. I mean we were watching Dan inside the building so anything could have happened with her hanging out there. Also maybe it was the other time traveler dude's phone and he gave it to her so they could be in contact.

Shame she wasn't still in the shower when she traveled, gosh Dan couldn't you have gone just a few minutes earlier?

Also I thought the same thing in regards to how does she have a phone and then the whole wouldn't it call both phones. I know when I have upgraded my phone and waiting for the new one to activate I actually could receive calls on the old one just not place them so someone called and both phones actually did ring.


----------



## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

Einselen said:


> Also I thought the same thing in regards to how does she have a phone and then the whole wouldn't it call both phones. I know when I have upgraded my phone and waiting for the new one to activate I actually could receive calls on the old one just not place them so someone called and both phones actually did ring.


This is complete threadjacking, but who cares, the show's canceled (I mean has yet to be renewed)

Anyway...Are there cell phone plans that give you 1 number but 2 or more phones? You know, so your cell line would work like your home line...someone calls and all your phones ring?


----------



## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

stiffi said:


> This is complete threadjacking, but who cares, the show's canceled (I mean has yet to be renewed)
> 
> Anyway...Are there cell phone plans that give you 1 number but 2 or more phones? You know, so your cell line would work like your home line...someone calls and all your phones ring?


I know it is possibly to have two lines into one phone. I am sure it probably could be possible to have two phones tied to one number it may take a little more advance programming within the system but the question would be why? Family plans let you share minutes and cell phones are portable so they are usually on the person. Not like you need to be tied in to a certain location as the traditional land lines.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

Einselen said:


> I know it is possibly to have two lines into one phone. I am sure it probably could be possible to have two phones tied to one number it may take a little more advance programming within the system but the question would be why? Family plans let you share minutes and cell phones are portable so they are usually on the person. Not like you need to be tied in to a certain location as the traditional land lines.


I was thinking of people who have NO land line. You could have two cell phones, and leave the second around the house so people could still reach you when you turn your phone off, or kill the battery.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

tivogurl said:


> If you're going to nitpick that, explain how she had a cell phone in the first place. She looked like she had just gotten out of the shower and had no time to properly dress, but she has a phone?


You know, that actually bugged me. One of the few things about the show that has. I'm going to pretend she borrowed it from someone on the street.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

ZooCaretaker said:


> So do we know when Dan got his iPhone? Did he have it the first time he leaped? If not, maybe... he got it with a brand new number so Livia was only calling his present self.


He probably didn't have it in the pilot because the producers didn't have a product placement deal in place yet.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

danterner said:


> Nice! :up:
> 
> Funny, when Langley was talking to Dan in the elevator, mentioning how Dan was the last remaining journeyman (apparently unaware of Olivia), I thought to myself, "ah, so he's the last of the time lords!"


Does that make Olivia The Master?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

busyba said:


> The FBI guy was totally rogue, operating an illegal investigation. The money was just a pretense to be able to investigate him overtly. What he was after was time travellers.


But what evidence would he have had to help him pinpoint Dan once the Dylan McCleen money was all lost in the past?


busyba said:


> He probably didn't have it in the pilot because the producers didn't have a product placement deal in place yet.


Maybe I'm missing your sarcasm (yes, I see the wink, but don't get where you're coming from), but Dan definitely had the iPhone in the pilot. It was discussed extensively in the thread for the pilot as well, including the product placement issue.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> But what evidence would he have had to help him pinpoint Dan once the Dylan McCleen money was all lost in the past?


Well, it wasn't _all_ lost, obviously. The fact that Dan's brother took one of the bills and ran the serial number (thus putting Dan on the guy's radar, although he probably was there already because of the plane incident) was never changed by Dan (_later_) sending the rest of the money into the past. And even if most of the money was recovered in the past, it's possible that the case wasn't closed since it's unlikely that they'd be able to make any kind of meaningful connection between the money and anyone at the liquor store robbery. And even if the case was closed, the serial number would probably still give a hit on the case.



> Maybe I'm missing your sarcasm (yes, I see the wink, but don't get where you're coming from), but Dan definitely had the iPhone in the pilot. It was discussed extensively in the thread for the pilot as well, including the product placement issue.


I had no idea whether the phone was in the pilot or not. I was just having a laugh (iz 'e 'avin a laugh?!?[/AndyMillman] ).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

busyba said:


> Well, it wasn't _all_ lost, obviously. The fact that Dan's brother took one of the bills and ran the serial number (thus putting Dan on the guy's radar, although he probably was there already because of the plane incident) was never changed by Dan (_later_) sending the rest of the money into the past. And even if most of the money was recovered in the past, it's possible that the case wasn't closed since it's unlikely that they'd be able to make any kind of meaningful connection between the money and anyone at the liquor store robbery. And even if the case was closed, the serial number would probably still give a hit on the case.


OK, but if much of the money from the hijacking turned up in the liquor store robbery, and many more bills made their way into circulation via the poker game, the FBI would never have had much reason to track those bills. It means that the one bill Jack stole from Dan was the only one that made it to 2007 unaccounted for. It's extremely unlikely that anyone would be watching the money network for over 30 years for one specific bill and even then, because of what happened to the rest of the money, nobody would have even known to look for that bill.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

tivogurl said:


> If you're going to nitpick that, explain how she had a cell phone in the first place. She looked like she had just gotten out of the shower and had no time to properly dress, but she has a phone?


Well, it's established they know maybe 15-20 seconds before hand that they're going to leap. That's enough time to grab her cell phone off the dresser but not properly dress.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> Well, it's established they know maybe 15-20 seconds before hand that they're going to leap. That's enough time to grab her cell phone off the dresser but not properly dress.


She's got a cell phone sitting on the dresser in 1948?


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> She's got a cell phone sitting on the dresser in 1948?


She lived in our time for several years, and she's made several trips to time in our recent past. It's not unlikely that she'd pick up a phone at some point and take it back with her.


----------



## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

busyba said:


> She lived in our time for several years, and she's made several trips to time in our recent past. It's not unlikely that she'd pick up a phone at some point and take it back with her.


Yeah but we saw what can happen when people take future devices into the past.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> OK, but if much of the money from the hijacking turned up in the liquor store robbery, and many more bills made their way into circulation via the poker game, the FBI would never have had much reason to track those bills. It means that the one bill Jack stole from Dan was the only one that made it to 2007 unaccounted for. It's extremely unlikely that anyone would be watching the money network for over 30 years for one specific bill and even then, because of what happened to the rest of the money, nobody would have even known to look for that bill.


The way I figure it, back when the robbery happened, all the serial numbers got put into a database somewhere. No matter what happens later, those numbers are in the system. It's not like anyone is going in there and scrubbing out old data. So later, someone runs that number and it hits on that database and a flag goes up.

Of course, the money isn't even the main thing. It's likely that this FBI guy was covertly looking at Dan from back when he disappeared from the plane. From the dialogue, we know that he's got at least a passing familiarity with other Travellers, so mysterious disappearances are definitely something he'd have his antennae up for. In the course of his scrutinizing Dan, he's probably checking out friends and family as well. So when the brother runs a serial number on a bill that hits on a federal database, the FBI guy sees that as his "in" into Dan's life so he can get closer. (the fact that it's mysterious money from the past reinforces his suspicions, but he was already on his way even without it).

So basically, the money had nothing to do with the FBI guy looking into Dan; he was already doing that, just not to our knowledge.

Once it was revealed that the FBI guy knew of time travel _before_ he came upon Dan, it opened up all kinds of possibilities as to how he ended up looking at Dan.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Kamakzie said:


> Yeah but we saw what can happen when people take future devices into the past.


The danger is in _leaving_ present devices in the past. Taking future devices back with you to your own present isn't as dangerous (and it's not dangerous at all to the traveller, since the traveller can only change his future that way, not his past), especially if you keep a lid on it.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> She's got a cell phone sitting on the dresser in 1948?


The first thing my husband said was, "Man, that's a really old Nokia."

My answer to him was, "Well, she's the one that told Dan to keep an older cell phone."

My guess is that by keeping an old cell phone with her at all times she'll be prepaired to use it in the era of cell phone usage. So I find it really believable that she could've grabbed the phone from her time before traveling to meet up with Dan.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

unicorngoddess said:


> The first thing my husband said was, "Man, that's a really old Nokia."
> 
> My answer to him was, "Well, she's the one that told Dan to keep an older cell phone."
> 
> My guess is that by keeping an old cell phone with her at all times she'll be prepaired to use it in the era of cell phone usage. So I find it really believable that she could've grabbed the phone from her time before traveling to meet up with Dan.


But who's paying the bill


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## bbussey (Dec 21, 2007)

spikedavis said:


> And now that we think about it-how does Livia have a working cell phone in 2007. Did she invest some money back in the 40s to pay for an AT&T Family Plan in the future?


Livia always carries various items with her for when she travels to the future. If you look closely, it is the same red cell phone that she had in the pilot episode, when she (1997 version) called Dan to give him Neal Gaines' work address.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

JohnB1000 said:


> But who's paying the bill


Automatic bill payments deducted from an account she set up when she bought Google stock back in 1960.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Here's an interesting question: If Ethan had to die for Dan to start traveling, does this mean Livia dies around 1992 (2007 - 15 years that Ethan had been traveling) for Ethan to start traveling? That would make her about 70-80 at the time of her death.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Royster said:


> Are you telling me that the Million Dollars was *an annuity* and not a lump sum?


On the prime-time version of "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" with Regis, the winners all got checks for the full amount, as TonyTheTiger indicated.

On the currently-running daytime version with Meredith Vieira, the big winners are paid in annuities.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

trainman said:


> On the prime-time version of "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" with Regis, the winners all got checks for the full amount, as TonyTheTiger indicated.
> 
> On the currently-running daytime version with Meredith Vieira, the big winners are paid in annuities.


According to the Wikipedia article the change to annuities occurred sometime around 2004. Though they did experiment earlier with other screwy things.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

jschuur said:


> Here's an interesting question: If Ethan had to die for Dan to start traveling, does this mean Livia dies around 1992 (2007 - 15 years that Ethan had been traveling) for Ethan to start traveling? That would make her about 70-80 at the time of her death.


I don't think so. I think I saw something, maybe even an interview with the creator of Journeyman, that said they can only travel within their own lifetime.


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## Lars_J (Feb 1, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> I don't think so. I think I saw something, maybe even an interview with the creator of Journeyman, that said they can only travel within their own lifetime.


No, that's just a common fan theory - also contradicted by the last episode. I think it was mostly budgetary and story reasons why it ended up that way.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Lars_J said:


> No, that's just a common fan theory - also contradicted by the last episode. I think it was mostly budgetary and story reasons why it ended up that way.


A common fan theory based on Kevin Church flat-out stating it.


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## Lars_J (Feb 1, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> A common fan theory based on Kevin Church flat-out stating it.


Ok, got a source?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Lars_J said:


> Ok, got a source?


I've seen it in several places. Here's one:



> KEVIN FALLS: The rule we have now is that Dan only travels within his own lifetime, Falls also wrote about how far back in time they are willing to let their central character go. That goes back to the early 70s. The other time traveler has a secret that we'll get to in the first 10 episodes. For Dan, it's only within his lifetime.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

I don't know that I think that quote means dan (or any other traveler) can't travel outside of their time, just that Dan doesn't. Langley said his group was started because things were showing up in antiquity that were modern, like the sculpture of the plane in preflight native America (I can't remember if he said Aztec or what). If the rules of time travel say a traveler can't travel outside of their lifetime then how did all of these things get there?

tk


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> If the rules of time travel say a traveler can't travel outside of their lifetime then how did all of these things get there?
> 
> tk


Because they're changing the rules as they go along. The quote just cited is pretty modified from the one that I saw earlier, which I can't track down, but he used to be a lot firmer about the limitation.

And that's fine, what counts is what's in the show. I always thought it was stupid of Church to say anything that could tie his hands or make a liar of him down the road. It kind of reminds me of comic book writer Mark Millar, who certainly has his genius side but he just doesn't know how not to talk. If there's something he can't talk about, instead of not talking about it, he drops hints. This being the internet age, people generally figure out what he's getting at within about, oh, 15 seconds. Then he has to back-peddle, which he tries to do by being clever and implying that he didn't really say what he really said. It just gets worse and worse, until he is backed so far into a corner the only way out is to shut up or lie. And, of course...he just can't shut up.

One hopes that Church has done a better job of learning his lesson than Millar has...


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

You keep saying Kevin Church. Do you mean Kevin Falls?

tk


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Even if it is accepted as a given that a particular journeyman can only travel to points within their own lifespan, that's not necessarily inconsistent with Langley's comment that clay airplane models were found with the Aztecs (or whomever it was). Remember that there are multiple journeymen, and that they are from different time periods, and that they can interact with each other. What if they play "telephone" with each other. Dan gives a message/knowledge to Oliva. Now, during her own travels, Olivia shares that knowledge with a hypothetical journeyman born in 1880 that lived until 1960. Now that journeyman has Dan's knowledge, even though their lifespans don't overlap and they never would have come across each other. Olivia was used as a bridge. It can keep going, so that eventually Dan's knowledge winds up back to, say, the height of the Aztec civilization. If the knowledge Dan passed back was what an airplane looks like, well there you go. Not that I'm saying this is what I think happened - there's absolutely no support for this in the one or two sentences Langley said - just that it could explain the Aztec thing without running afoul of the idea of no Journeyman (or, at least, Dan) traveling outside of their own lifespan.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> You keep saying Kevin Church. Do you mean Kevin Falls?


Yes. Yes, I do.

(Wonder why I got that wrong name stuck in my head..?)


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yes. Yes, I do.
> 
> (Wonder why I got that wrong name stuck in my head..?)


My guess is that it's a Falls Church thing. Ever been to DC? 

tk


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Saying stupid things; being caught in lies; being hopeful one learns their lessons...

Church

I can understand the slip.


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## DarwinK (Dec 23, 2007)

Questions I would have liked to see addressed that it seems we'll now never know:
1. Surely Livia must have been curious about her future in her mainstream life. Did she ever try to check up on herself? Did she never have the opportunity in her early days of traveling? Did she not bother once she was stuck in the '90s because she thought that's when she'd live out her natural life? Did she decide not to after she started traveling again, because knowing her destiny might cause her to change her behavior in the '40s that would then affect the future in unknown ways?
2. If she wanted to know, but doesn't have the opportunity now to check up during her short leaps, she could have Dan do the research when he's "home".
3. Surely Dan must have been curious about Livia's future, and once he knew she was from the '40s, he would have researched her. If he couldn't find out about her, would that be because she was using a different name then? As a good reporter, he'd surely think to search San Francisco marriage records around late December 1948 for a groom named Henry and a bride born on whatever-the-date-was 1923. Even if he knew she didn't want him to, it's certainly consistent with his character that he'd do it: He'd want the comfort of knowing her life went well, and if it didn't, he'd want to help her.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

> KEVIN FALLS: "The rule we have now is that Dan only travels within his own lifetime," Falls also wrote about how far back in time they are willing to let their central character go. "That goes back to the early 70s. The other time traveler has a secret that we'll get to in the first 10 episodes. For Dan, it's only within his lifetime."


Again, I take that as being a statement on the production limitations that they've placed on themselves and not a statement on the nature of time travel tech in their universe.

Even if you take that as a comment on the tech, notice that the statement is specifically limited to only Dan, while the "other time traveller", Olivia presumably, is specifically excluded from the statement.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

*BURN IN HELL, NBC!*

That is all.

Oh, and I will be buying this on DVD. When does it come out?


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

busyba said:


> That was a cute bit at the beginning with Katie wanting to "watch" and Dan getting shy and unable to leap. It reminded me of the time my GF in college wanted to watch me pee and I couldn't.


Shy? Dan didn't get shy. 1st, He has no control over when he leaves, so how could being "shy" affect it? 2nd, He heard the evil SIL on her way into the room just before he was about to leave so he got out of there asap so that she (the SIL) wouldn't see him leave.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> Shy? Dan didn't get shy. 1st, He has no control over when he leaves, so how could being "shy" affect it? 2nd, He heard the evil SIL on her way into the room just before he was about to leave so he got out of there asap so that she (the SIL) wouldn't see him leave.


He looked like he was feeling awkward standing there while Katie stared at him and I think that it may have, on an subconscious level, impeded the leap from happening.

It definitely seemed that over time he came to have an incrementally higher bit of control (he certainly had a lot more advance notice than he had earlier in the series). Nothing major, but the ability to hold it off for just a few seconds if necessary.

In any case, if you don't get to hung up on the tech, that scene was totally _played_ as if Dan was having a case of shy bladder.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

busyba said:


> He looked like he was feeling awkward standing there while Katie stared at him and I think that it may have, on an subconscious level, impeded the leap from happening.
> 
> It definitely seemed that over time he came to have an incrementally higher bit of control (he certainly had a lot more advance notice than he had earlier in the series). Nothing major, but the ability to hold it off for just a few seconds if necessary.
> 
> In any case, if you don't get to hung up on the tech, that scene was totally _played_ as if Dan was having a case of shy bladder.


If you say so.
(I bet you heare that a lot)


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## Sandlapper (Oct 26, 2003)

I loved this show, but did anyone else ever notice that Dan would call 911 or tell someone to call 911 when he would be in a time before 911 was invented.

That always bothered me.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Sandlapper said:


> I loved this show, but did anyone else ever notice that Dan would call 911 or tell someone to call 911 when he would be in a time before 911 was invented.
> 
> That always bothered me.


9-1-1 was first used in 1968 in Alabama ( http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl911.htm ). I don't know when San Francisco started using it, but I would assume it wouldn't have taken too long to spread to the major cities.

Dan's date of birth was established as being either 1972 or 73, and they never had him jump outside of his lifespan, so I can't think of any situations where he would have told someone to call 9-1-1 during a time before 9-1-1 would have been widely used.

The earliest jump I can think of was when he helped the woman who went into labor on the airplane (and they couldn't have called 9-1-1 from there).


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

I wish you guys would stop posting to this so It will move off the front page... I keep crying every time I see it when I come to the site.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I wish you guys would stop posting to this so It will move off the front page... I keep crying every time I see it when I come to the site.


Lest we forget...


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

getbak said:


> 9-1-1 was first used in 1968 in Alabama ( http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl911.htm ). I don't know when San Francisco started using it, but I would assume it wouldn't have taken too long to spread to the major cities.


You might be surprised -- when I moved away from the Pittsburgh suburbs in early 1999, they were _just about_ to introduce 911 in the parts of Allegheny County that weren't the city of Pittsburgh (because it had already been in use in Pittsburgh for years). Of course, if you were to find yourself time-traveling back to the Pittsburgh suburbs in 1998, people would _probably_ know what you meant by "call 911," and would duly dial "0" or their local 7-digit emergency number.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

trainman said:


> You might be surprised -- when I moved away from the Pittsburgh suburbs in early 1999, they were _just about_ to introduce 911 in the parts of Allegheny County that weren't the city of Pittsburgh (because it had already been in use in Pittsburgh for years). Of course, if you were to find yourself time-traveling back to the Pittsburgh suburbs in 1998, people would _probably_ know what you meant by "call 911," and would duly dial "0" or their local 7-digit emergency number.


That's true, in the late 90s I moved to a small city (~20,000) that still didn't have 911, but like you said, everyone would have understood the term "call 9-1-1".


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

getbak said:


> Dan's date of birth was established as being either 1972 or 73


July 6, 1972

I only noted that because I was born August 5, 1972. I look at Dan, and I look at myself, and I don't really see Dan as a 35 year old. He seems older to me (late 30s?)


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Sadara said:


> While I will never understand what people like so much about CSI: Miami, it's ratings are always high and any show pitted against it has death written on it before it ever airs the first episode.


I'm not sure if you like any CSIs, but a lot of us just like the CSI shows.. (Though I actually stopped watching them sometime during last season when I had far fewer tuners and disk space. Since I also have netflix, I'll catch up on them eventually. Somewhat ironically, I 
actually am more willing to stop watching the more popular shows, since I know they're more likely to show up on DVD.. though lately pretty much anything non-reality shows up on DVD eventually.)


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Alpinemaps said:


> July 6, 1972
> 
> I only noted that because I was born August 5, 1972. I look at Dan, and I look at myself, and I don't really see Dan as a 35 year old. He seems older to me (late 30s?)


The actor was born in 1973.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm reading The Time Traveler's Wife which was recommended by a few people on this thread a while ago. It's a great book--thanks. Really different from Journeyman, tho--especially the traveling naked part. Hard to do that on network TV, I guess.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

I recommended TTTW, and thought Journeyman would be an almost duplicate. I'm so glad it wasn't! The two can exist very well. They were similar but pretty different takes on the topic.

I wish Dan could have interacted with himself in the past, though. It would have been a big help to himself sometimes.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

trainman said:


> Of course, if you were to find yourself time-traveling back to the Pittsburgh suburbs in 1998, people would _probably_ know what you meant by "call 911," and would duly dial "0" or their local 7-digit emergency number.


Well, I've never lived there, but I suspect they'd know what 911 meant from pop culture usage, just like people outside of California know what the "DMV" means even though other states don't use that term. (i.e. A frequent goof in movies set in other places is to refer to the DMV.)


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

mattack said:


> Well, I've never lived there, but I suspect they'd know what 911 meant from pop culture usage, just like people outside of California know what the "DMV" means even though other states don't use that term. (i.e. A frequent goof in movies set in other places is to refer to the DMV.)


Huh? DMV is a California only thing? News to me.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

Virginia *D*ivision of *M*otor *V*ehicles or *DMV*. It's been called the DMV in Virginia as long as I can remember.

VA DMV website: www.dmvnow.com


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bryanmc said:


> Huh? DMV is a California only thing? News to me.


Yeah, I've always thought it was universal.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

New York uses DMV also. So who doesn't?


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

busyba said:


> New York uses DMV also. So who doesn't?


Iowa doesn't, MVD site.

tk


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> Iowa doesn't, MVD site.


...which is the second hit when you Google "iowa dmv"...


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

But does any state use something that isn't some permutation of the letters 'D', 'M' and 'V'?


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

busyba said:


> But does any state use something that isn't some permutation of the letters 'D', 'M' and 'V'?


We use DOT here, but people still call it the DMV


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

busyba said:


> But does any state use something that isn't some permutation of the letters 'D', 'M' and 'V'?


Massachusetts, it's the Registry of Motor Vehicles,
RMV


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

In New Jersey it's the New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission (NJMVC), formerly Motor Vehicle Services (MVS).


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## Generic (Dec 27, 2005)

getbak said:


> 9-1-1 was first used in 1968 in Alabama ( http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl911.htm ). I don't know when San Francisco started using it, but I would assume it wouldn't have taken too long to spread to the major cities.


All California counties were required to have 9-1-1 operational in their county by 1986 although many counties had it prior to the cut-off date.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

pendragn said:


> Iowa doesn't, MVD site.
> 
> tk


that explains a lot...


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

mrmike said:


> We use DOT here, but people still call it the DMV


We have a DOT here in Virginia too (actually VDOT), but it's the agency that maintains the roads. The DMV licenses people to drive and registers vehicles.

Actually the DMV might be a divison of VDOT, but most people see them as seperate. The DMV is where you get your license and VDOT is who you ***** at when the snow isn't cleared from the roads!


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

busyba said:


> But does any state use something that isn't some permutation of the letters 'D', 'M' and 'V'?


Actually, yes.

Here in Georgia, the DMV became the DDS (Department of Driver Services) a couple years ago.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Utah is DMV while Arizona is MVD.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

dswallow said:


> In New Jersey it's the New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission (NJMVC), formerly Motor Vehicle Services (MVS).


But everybody still calls it the DMV


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## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

MVA in MD. Motor Vehicle Administration. Administration trumps Department in poor service, ridiculous fees, and total fustercluckedness.

Frank


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Can someone say "thread hijack?"


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Can someone say "thread hijack?"


Well, it's not like there's going to be anything new about Journeyman to talk about.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> But everybody still calls it the DMV


Very true.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Can someone say "thread hijack?"


In Virginia, we call that a "hijacked thread", but we understand what you meant.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

According to what I can find, Merced County was the first to implement 911, and it was done in March of 1970. I'm betting the rest of CA wasn't far behind.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

busyba said:


> Well, it's not like there's going to be anything new about Journeyman to talk about.


touche.... well played Sir, well played


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

busyba said:


> But does any state use something that isn't some permutation of the letters 'D', 'M' and 'V'?


Illinois Secretary of State office.


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## jk5598224 (Jan 29, 2003)

Did Journey officially get cancelled?


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

jk5598224 said:


> Did Journey officially get cancelled?


No they're still around. They have a new album coming out next year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_(band)


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

We watched the last four shows last night. We both kept saying "I can't believe they are canceling this!"
The ep where he had Caroline instead of Zach was a real winner for me.

What a shame.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

It would be great if they got an Emmy and during the acceptance speech the winner said, "Burn In Hell NBC!"


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

TVGuide.com has Journeyman listed as one of the worst shows of 2007.

http://www.tvguide.com/special/BestofYear07/worsttv.aspx

I do not even know how they can begin to call it the worst of 2007. I agree with nearly everything else on that list, but not Journeyman!


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Sadara said:


> TVGuide.com has Journeyman listed as one of the worst shows of 2007.
> 
> http://www.tvguide.com/special/BestofYear07/worsttv.aspx
> 
> I do not even know how they can begin to call it the worst of 2007. I agree with nearly everything else on that list, but not Journeyman!


TV guide, one of the worst "magazines" of 2007.


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

scottykempf said:


> TV guide, one of the worst "magazines" of 2007.


:up:


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Sadara said:


> TVGuide.com has Journeyman listed as one of the worst shows of 2007.
> 
> http://www.tvguide.com/special/BestofYear07/worsttv.aspx
> 
> I do not even know how they can begin to call it the worst of 2007. I agree with nearly everything else on that list, but not Journeyman!


Nice comments about that on their message boards:

Adam Schubak has been hammering Journeyman since before Day 1, and apparently doesn't possess the attention span required to watch this intelligently-written and finely-acted television program. Inexplicably, he doesn't realize that the primary focus of the show IS the relationships between the four lead characters, and how the time-traveling affects them. The main emphasis of this series never was the missions. And, when reviewing all thirteen episodes as one full-bodied story, you see the characters evolve and how well the story flows from beginning to end. The series is reminiscent of such long-running character-driven dramas such as Hill Street Blues, the West Wing, and Deep Space Nine. And as a bonus, it can be watched by the entire family (despite the inappropriate 10pm timeslot). Regardless of whether the show is renewed by NBC or not, Journeyman will go down as a classic when all is said and done -- especially in an era of the mindless reality-based or formulaic drivel that dominates the schedule and attempts to pass as "quality" broadcast television.

"Worst of 2007?" Hardly. This series was the best drama on NBC, let alone the best with science-fiction elements, and arguably the best drama on broadcast television this season.

---

Wow..."flat" characters? "missions are yawners"? Maybe 10pm was waaay past Adam Schubak's bedtime.. for him to think much. I hope he knows something about developing plot lines if he considers himself a serious critic. He can go watch his "laugh riot" 'samantha who' show. At least he'll get the plot there.

"Journeyman" has been the most rewarding tv show I've watched in a long time. The writing, acting and pacing has been getting better and better with each episode. If you suffer from "get it now" attention spans and quantum leap rehash, which i bet a lot of viewers did, you won't get past the first ep.

If Adam gave it another chance, he'd actually witness a great DEVELOPING drama and rich characters and a little scifi to boot.

Ignore Schubak's shortsighted dismissal and watch it for yourself on nbc.com or iTunes. Journeyman is awesome.

---

Wow, I can't believe Journeyman made the worst list! By far, this show was the best show of the fall season.

This show delivered with a great story arc and intriguing characters. What's truly refreshing, it didn't spoon feed a storyline to audience like so many tv shows today.

It's a shame to see Journeyman leave the air.

---

I'd have to agree with every show you listed on your 'worst of 2007' list, except for "Journeyman". But hey, no one is perfect, so I won't hold that against you.

'Journeyman' obviously didn't work for you because of the time travel element and how that affected the lead character's personal relationships. I'm glad the show wasn't a new version of 'Quantum Leap'. That show sucked and should be on a 'worst of' list. If you were expecting that, I can see why you didn't like it.

But to add it to a list that contains 'Cavemen' or 'Viva Laughlin' or 'Bionic Woman' is absurd. Those shows were trash, while 'Journeyman' is like a fine wine, with elegant writing, rich storylines, interesting acting, etc. If you were hoping for a 'mission of the week' into the past, 'Journeyman' shot for something higher, more promising. It wasn't the greatest show of all time, far from it. But it was definitely among the finest of 2007.

In truth, though, yearly 'best' and 'worst' lists, as well as weekly reviews like those in 'TV Guide' are rather silly. Why would anyone care to read what one individual thinks about art or entertainment? Are we that insipid that we have to read what others feel about things we find entertaining? We each see beauty in different things. Write your own 'best' and 'worst' lists and stop reading reviews of any kind. You'll find your life will be richer when you seek out TV shows, movies, books, CDs, etc and use your own brain to determine what is good and what is not. Reviews are a waste of time to read. Turn on your TV or go to a movie, and enjoy. It's a better way to spend your leisure time!

---

And so on... 

It's almost like they put it there just to avoid the message board being populated exclusively with "yep."


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I wish you guys would stop posting to this so It will move off the front page... I keep crying every time I see it when I come to the site.


Sorry.


wprager said:


> Quick question: Would you pay to see a Journeyman movie?


Sure, as long as one of the key characters doesn't get killed off in the final five minutes.



busyba said:


> ...So why the hell doesn't the "intelligent controller" be a little more careful about the circumstances under which he sends the traveller off?! Like, if Dan is with his kid at a street fair, why not wait until the kid is safe with someone else before you make Dan leap? I mean, what's the rush, he's travelling through _time_.  ...


Like many of the time traveling shows (Quantum Leap, Goodnight Sweetheart and now Journeyman), I took the time travel experience to be linear, that is:

The protagonists life is like a book, and travel can only happen between pages and the to and from positions must be the same on both parts. (i.e if you are needed on page 34, line 12, word 6, and you are on page 564 and line 12 word 6 has you at the fair with your kid, that is when you go.)


busyba said:


> But does any state use something that isn't some permutation of the letters 'D', 'M' and 'V'?


Indiana has the *B*MV, the Bureau of Motor Vehicles.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

Just got done watching the episode and while it did do a fine job of closing out the series, I am certainly disappointed that it came to an end.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Man, Sherm. Not only do I get to lament the death of JM, but you have to remind me of another great show (Goodnight Sweetheart)!

I'll have to try and find the final two seasons though - I came here in '98 and missed them.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

Check your local PBS station, mine ran the show a couple of years back.


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