# Upgrade 2TB hard drive suggestions? Green or Regular? 5900 or 7200RPM ?



## jlin (Nov 20, 1999)

I'm trying to decide between the two Seagate drives on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004CCS266/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005T3GRN2/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Do I need to do anything special to fix the 'sleeping-wake up' problem associated with the WD Green drives?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I thought you were getting Seagate drives?(I have no idea about the drives in the TiVos since I have not messed with my own drives with the Premieres) At least they are finally below $100. Another 30% to 35% drop and they will finally be back to pre-flood levels.


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## jlin (Nov 20, 1999)

Per upgrade instruction, there's a particular procedure that needs to be done to WD Green drives to work as an upgrade drive in Tivo.

I'm just wonder if Seagate drives would just be plug-and-play.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

The WD20EURS is the way too go, Copy-Expand-Supersize, no need to mess with adjustments.

This is what is used in the Elite/XL4
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8747373#post8747373

http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-AV-GP-Intellipower-Internal/dp/B0042AG9V8/


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## jlin (Nov 20, 1999)

ST2000DL003 is currently $99 on Amazon

Thanks for the tip on WD20EURS..it's $125 though.


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## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

jlin said:


> ST2000DL003 is currently $99 on Amazon
> 
> Thanks for the tip on WD20EURS..it's $125 though.


There have been reported issues in these forums with Seagate drives. The general concensus is that the WD drives are the way to go, even at a higher cost. What you are referring to is the need to run WDIDLE on the green WD drives that have the Intelli-park "feature". It's a free utility but requires that you open your desktop PC and connect the new drive directly to the motherboard in order to run it.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

lillevig said:


> but requires that you open your desktop PC and connect the new drive directly to the motherboard in order to run it.


Opening up your case, disconnecting the system drive(s) and directly connecting the old and new TiVo drives is the best and fasted way to use JMFS anyway, and requires no purchase of USB connectors.


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## jlin (Nov 20, 1999)

So no need to run WDIDLE for WD20EURS?


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

jlin said:


> So no need to run WDIDLE for WD20EURS?


No need.


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## jlin (Nov 20, 1999)

I'm updating two HD Tivo's I've picked up from Craiglist for under $50.

Should I keep both of the original 160GB hard drives? Or is ONE original drive sufficient for backup?

I believe the drives are not married to the units and they're basically identical, especially after downloading the latest update?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jlin said:


> I'm updating two HD Tivo's I've picked up from Craiglist for under $50.
> 
> Should I keep both of the original 160GB hard drives? Or is ONE original drive sufficient for backup?
> 
> I believe the drives are not married to the units and they're basically identical, especially after downloading the latest update?


If you don't use the original drive you will have to do a clear and delete before you can use it. You can't view content recorded from one box on another by putting the drive in another box. I always put my original drives away so I have them if needed. And if I sell the box I typically include the original drive as well to increase the value of the sale price.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

jlin said:


> ST2000DL003 is currently $99 on Amazon
> 
> Thanks for the tip on WD20EURS..it's $125 though.


I think NewEgg has it $10 cheaper right now, but if you read the feedback on the NewEgg page for that model, go down to where a guy talks about the firmware change from CC32 to something else.

It's not yet known for certain what problems, if any, "advanced format" 4K sector drives cause for TiVos, and you can't count on getting good reliable info from drive makers as to which model implements it in what way if it has it.

I got a couple of those drives with the old CC32 firmware from Best Buy just before the flooding in Thailand drove prices up.

Tried one in an S3 HD and it seemed to want to reboot a lot.

Swapped in a WD20EADS and haven't had any problems since, although if they still make that model number they may have changed them to advanced format without warning.

7200RPM is overkill, all it gets you in a TiVo is extra heat, and maybe extra power drain.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I recently got $99 lifetime on my TiVo HD so have decided to keep it for a long time, even if it means replacing the power supply some day. I've had a WD10EADS drive in it for almost 3 years now with no known problems -- runs cool and quiet. I am leery of the "Advanced Format" drives, even though I know a number of people have upgraded TiVos with them and reported success. As I understand it, even when they function correctly they are actually forced to do 3 seeks instead of 1 when emulating non-Advanced Format drives, as they must do in a TiVo. I don't like that idea.

So I decided to buy another WD10EADS to have on hand when my current one fails. (I'm happy with 1 TB.) From looking at the WD website, Amazon, NewEgg, etc., I get the definite impression it's getting harder and harder to find the WD##EADS drives (new). Amazon lists one but estimated delivery time is many weeks. One of their "storefront" suppliers had them and supposedly had them in stock. But when I contacted them, they said they were out of stock. (So much for the accuracy of their Amazon storefront page.)

I finally ended up ordering one from an eBay store site for $96, free shipping. I contacted them and found that, although new, the drive does NOT have the WD warranty (2 yrs I believe) -- but they provide their own 180-day warranty. I plan to perform the WD extended diagnostic test on the drive as soon as I get it.

Seems like upgraders are in a somewhat problematic situation at this point with this Advanced Format thing.


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## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

CoxInPHX said:


> Opening up your case, disconnecting the system drive(s) and directly connecting the old and new TiVo drives is the best and fasted way to use JMFS anyway, and requires no purchase of USB connectors.


True for JMFS but I have only run WinMFS and MFSTools. Can't see ever needing anything larger than 1TB. USB adapters are cheap and allow me to also backup and restore images for older IDE drives.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

dlfl said:


> I recently got $99 lifetime on my TiVo HD so have decided to keep it for a long time, even if it means replacing the power supply some day. I've had a WD10EADS drive in it for almost 3 years now with no known problems -- runs cool and quiet. I am leery of the "Advanced Format" drives, even though I know a number of people have upgraded TiVos with them and reported success. As I understand it, even when they function correctly they are actually forced to do 3 seeks instead of 1 when emulating non-Advanced Format drives, as they must do in a TiVo. I don't like that idea.
> 
> So I decided to buy another WD10EADS to have on hand when my current one fails. (I'm happy with 1 TB.) From looking at the WD website, Amazon, NewEgg, etc., I get the definite impression it's getting harder and harder to find the WD##EADS drives (new). Amazon lists one but estimated delivery time is many weeks. One of their "storefront" suppliers had them and supposedly had them in stock. But when I contacted them, they said they were out of stock. (So much for the accuracy of their Amazon storefront page.)
> 
> ...


I hate to have to tell you this but recently somewhere I saw someone say they got a recently manufactured 10EADS and it was AF now.

The point of which I don't get, as it's not needed for anything up to 2TB.

Maybe you'll get lucky and get some NOS.

What you're paying for that 10EADS is about what I paid for the 20EADS I got a year or so ago, pre-flood

And they were getting hard to find then.


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## jlin (Nov 20, 1999)

So I'm confused.

Should I get 20EADS or WD20EURS ?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

jlin said:


> So I'm confused.
> 
> Should I get 20EADS or WD20EURS ?


Post links for from where you'd get them and we'll see if we can tell if they're AF or not.

I'm surprised anyone still has any 20EADSes for sale.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

jlin said:


> I'm updating two HD Tivo's I've picked up from Craiglist for under $50.
> 
> Should I keep both of the original 160GB hard drives? Or is ONE original drive sufficient for backup?
> 
> I believe the drives are not married to the units and they're basically identical, especially after downloading the latest update?


They're married to the units in that each expects to find itself in the TiVo with a TSN that matches what they have in their database.

They'll work in the other one, you just have to go through the whole green screen delete everything routine.

Better to set each TiVo up the way you want it, then copy its drive to a bigger one, and keep each's original drive on the shelf as a backup/diagnostic tool.

Get a labelmaker or Sharpie and note the TSN of each TiVo on its drive to avoid confusion in future.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

unitron said:


> I hate to have to tell you this but recently somewhere I saw someone say they got a recently manufactured 10EADS and it was AF now.
> .........


I've started an email case ticket with WD support asking if this is true. I also asked whether, if it is true, you can tell which units have AF by the serial number.

I can't even find a spec page for the WD10EADS on the WD site. It gives every appearance of a discontinued product. It does say that all AF drives will say so on their labels. Adding AF strikes me as too major a change to not involve assigning a different model number -- and WD doesn't seem to have any hesitation about using new model numbers!


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## jlin (Nov 20, 1999)

unitron said:


> Post links for from where you'd get them and we'll see if we can tell if they're AF or not.
> 
> I'm surprised anyone still has any 20EADSes for sale.


I just have a spare 20EAD as one of my spare drives in my storage...debating whether to put that one in or $99 ST2000DL003 from Amazon that will be arriving next week.


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## nrnoble (Aug 25, 2004)

lillevig said:


> There have been reported issues in these forums with Seagate drives. The general concensus is that the WD drives are the way to go, even at a higher cost.


I do not know what the past issues might have been, but I installed a Seagate 2TB drive in my Premiere and the Seagate HDD barely last two weeks. At first I was getting random reboots, then finally the TiVo would not boot at all, just stayed frozen on first startup screen and would not boot any further. Put the original TiVo drive back in and everything started working again.

Since, I have upgraded to WD 2TB green HDD, and have not had any problems.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

nrnoble said:


> I do not know what the past issues might have been, but I installed a Seagate 2TB drive in my Premiere and the Seagate HDD barely last two weeks. At first I was getting random reboots, then finally the TiVo would not boot at all, just stayed frozen on first startup screen and would not boot any further. Put the original TiVo drive back in and everything started working again.
> 
> Since, I have upgraded to WD 2TB green HDD, and have not had any problems.


The good news is you should be able to slap that Seagate into a PC running Desktop or something from our open source brethren and offload non-copy protected shows, so it won't go to waste.

That's what I did when an ST2000DL03 gave my S3 HD a bad case of the random reboots and I dd'ed it over to a WD20EADS. TiVo and PC are both doing fine.


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## nrnoble (Aug 25, 2004)

unitron said:


> The good news is you should be able to slap that Seagate into a PC running Desktop or something from our open source brethren and offload non-copy protected shows, so it won't go to waste.
> 
> That's what I did when an ST2000DL03 gave my S3 HD a bad case of the random reboots and I dd'ed it over to a WD20EADS. TiVo and PC are both doing fine.


Thanks, I shall try that. I do have linux box that I do that with.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

nrnoble said:


> Thanks, I shall try that. I do have linux box that I do that with.


My bad, it was a 003, not 03

I put it in an XP box, but here's something I found in a customer review at NewEgg

"Unfortunately the replacement drives have the CC98 firmware on them while the orginal ones have CC32. CC32 reports the sector size as 512 logical/512 physical. CC98 reports 512 logical/4096 physical."

Mine's got the CC32 firmware.

What problems the later version might cause with which OS I can't say.

As I understand it, advanced format (4K sectors) is only necessary for drives over 2TB, so I don't understand why the industry needs to sow these landmines.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

A while ago the industry said they were moving their drives to AF.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> I've started an email case ticket with WD support asking if this is true [that some WD10EADS drives are Advanced Format]. I also asked whether, if it is true, you can tell which units have AF by the serial number.
> .......


Haven't got a reply from WD but I now have verified the answer: Yes, some WD10EADS drives are Advanced Format. I got this by zooming in on a label on this drive displayed in an e-Bay seller's listing.

So if you're motivated to try to buy a WD##EADS drive to avoid AF, beware.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> Haven't got a reply from WD but I now have verified the answer: Yes, some WD10EADS drives are Advanced Format. I got this by zooming in on a label on this drive displayed in an e-Bay seller's listing.
> 
> So if you're motivated to try to buy a WD##EADS drive to avoid AF, beware.


I got a reply from WD and the situation is more complicated than I imagined:

WD says no ORIGINAL MANUFACTURE WD10EADS drives were AF but refurbished or re-manufactured versions could be AF. However, if a drive is AF it will say so on the label affixed to the drive case.

So I've been the victim of my own failure to read the small print on eBay. The drive that I purchased is categorized as "New - Other" by eBay (which is different from just "New"). Turns out the definition of "New - Other" essentially just means the drive looks new, which I think is very misleading. If you zoom in 400% on the photo of a "new" drive on eBay, the "Advanced Format" is not on the label. But the opposite is true for the drive I ordered.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

jlin said:


> I just have a spare 20EAD as one of my spare drives in my storage...debating whether to put that one in or $99 ST2000DL003 from Amazon that will be arriving next week.


Why don't you try that Seagate, and see how it works, and share that knowledge with the rest of us?

If it doesn't work you can fall back on the WD.


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## farmermac (Jan 31, 2012)

So am I missing something, why aren't you guys just getting the eurs drive instead of playing the ears AF lottery. The eurs is designed for AV recording?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

farmermac said:


> So am I missing something, why aren't you guys just getting the eurs drive instead of playing the ears AF lottery. The eurs is designed for AV recording?


AFAIK this about sums it up:



unitron said:


> ........It's not yet known for certain what problems, if any, "advanced format" 4K sector drives cause for TiVos, and you can't count on getting good reliable info from drive makers as to which model implements it in what way if it has it.
> .........


And the EURS are AF, I believe. I'd rather not take the chance.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

dlfl said:


> And the EURS are AF, I believe. I'd rather not take the chance.


I have been using a WD20EURS for about 10 months w/o issue.
Besides TiVo uses EURS drives, and the Elite uses the WD20EURS


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

CoxInPHX said:


> I have been using a WD20EURS for about 10 months w/o issue.
> Besides TiVo uses EURS drives, and the Elite uses the WD20EURS


My TiVo is the HD model. Also, when TiVo uses an advanced format drive as original equipment, whatever adjustments (e.g., sector alignment) are necessary for efficient operation can be done at the factory.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

dlfl said:


> My TiVo is the HD model. Also, when TiVo uses an advanced format drive as original equipment, whatever adjustments (e.g., sector alignment) are necessary for efficient operation can be done at the factory.


Well, a pre-AF version of the WD20EADS, if one can find said same, works fine in the HD.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

unitron said:


> Well, a pre-AF version of the WD20EADS, if one can find said same, works fine in the HD.


Yep, as I've already said earlier in this thread, a pre-AF WD10EADS is what I already have working in my HD (for almost 3 years now) and my goal is to get another one to put on the shelf for that day when the current one fails.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

dlfl said:


> Yep, as I've already said earlier in this thread, a pre-AF WD10EADS is what I already have working in my HD (for almost 3 years now) and my goal is to get another one to put on the shelf for that day when the current one fails.


I sincerely wish you the best of fortune in finding one or more of those and fear you'll need all the luck you can get to do so.

What this country needs is an Indiana Jones end of Raiders of the Lost Ark-style warehouse full of new old stock of the stuff we want new old stock of.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

unitron said:


> I sincerely wish you the best of fortune in finding one or more of those and fear you'll need all the luck you can get to do so.
> 
> What this country needs is an Indiana Jones end of Raiders of the Lost Ark-style warehouse full of new old stock of the stuff we want new old stock of.


(My previous WD10EADS order arrived today and as I expected was labeled AF so it's being returned.)

I just found a seller on eBay that has non-AF drives. 8 left after I just ordered mine:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Dig...d=51341265963967676&pid=100015&prg=1008&rk=1&
I contacted the seller to verify that AF is not on the label. These are eBay "new" and according to WD these two conditions mean it will not be AF.
I should have it in 2 days.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

I know that an AF drive bigger than 2Tb will not work on a TP even if it is not expanded, but I don't know for sure if a AF drive at 2Tb or less will work on the TiVo. Has anybody tried an AF 2tb or smaller drive on any any TiVo ?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

lessd said:


> I know that an AF drive bigger than 2Tb will not work on a TP even if it is not expanded, but I don't know for sure if a AF drive at 2Tb or less will work on the TiVo. Has anybody tried an AF 2tb or smaller drive on any any TiVo ?


Supposedly the WD20EARS is a 4K drive and lots of people have used it in S3 HDs and Premieres.

I tried a Seagate AF 2TB and had reboot problems, but I can't swear it was the drive and not me mis-preparing it.

But rather than experiment a lot, I just swapped it out for a 512 byte sector WD20EADS which is working fine, although that Seagate is working as a single NTFS partition in an XP machine with no problems.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

unitron said:


> Supposedly the WD20EARS is a 4K drive and lots of people have used it in S3 HDs and Premieres.
> 
> I tried a Seagate AF 2TB and had reboot problems, but I can't swear it was the drive and not me mis-preparing it.
> 
> But rather than experiment a lot, I just swapped it out for a 512 byte sector WD20EADS which is working fine, although that Seagate is working as a single NTFS partition in an XP machine with no problems.


I guess we need more information on AF drives and TiVo.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lessd said:


> I guess we need more information on AF drives and TiVo.


Yep, and understandably neither the drive mfr's nor TiVo have any business interest in supporting DIY TiVo drive upgrades -- so we users have to generate this info ourselves.

The data I've seen on using non-aligned WD AF drives on XP indicate a huge performance penalty and it isn't clear how one could ensure alignment on the TiVo system. (WD provides a tool for this for the XP case.)


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dlfl said:


> Yep, and understandably neither the drive mfr's nor TiVo have any business interest in supporting DIY TiVo drive upgrades -- so we users have to generate this info ourselves.
> 
> The data I've seen on using non-aligned WD AF drives on XP indicate a huge performance penalty and it isn't clear how one could ensure alignment on the TiVo system. (WD provides a tool for this for the XP case.)


Well I am trying a WD AF 1Tb drive now (doing the copy) will let you know the results ASAP. Note this drive has the delay timer set to 12 seconds, I disabled it to make sure i was only using the AF part of the drive for the TiVo TP.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

lessd said:


> Well I am trying a WD AF 1Tb drive now (doing the copy) will let you know the results ASAP. Note this drive has the delay timer set to 12 seconds, I disabled it to make sure i was only using the AF part of the drive for the TiVo TP.


Good news the WD 1Tb with AF works without problems in the TP, the drive model is WD10EARX the UPC is 718037778679


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lessd said:


> Good news the WD 1Tb with AF works without problems in the TP, the drive model is WD10EARX the UPC is 718037778679


I still have reservations. Take a look at these test results comparing AF drive performance on XP with- and without- running the WD alignmnet tool:
http://hothardware.com/Reviews/WDs-...Format-Windows-XP-Users-Pay-Attention/?page=2
We're talking 2X to 3X differences.

Now I've always heard the HDD's in TiVo's are not pushed anywhere near their performance limits, so it could well be that non-aligned AF drives will perform OK in TiVo's under typical loading. However, to really test them you need to stress them, i.e., set the tuners to two high-bitrate HD channels, and also do some other stuff such as MRV, TTG, PyTiVo push/pull, Amazon movie download, etc.

Also, as I understand it, the non-aligned AF drive emulates 512 sector drives by a read-modify-write sequence on the 4096 sectors, which multiplies the number of seeks and read/writes by some factor. I have to wonder if this additional wear-and-tear doesn't impact longevity.

I'm guessing that when TiVo installs an AF drive in original equipment, they handle the alignment issue that is addressed by the WD tool for XP. However, this procedure is not available to DIY upgraders, and I read somewhere that the version of Linux used in older Series 3 models cannot support 4K alignment at all.

So it looks like once the non-AF drive supply dries up, we have to use the AF drives and hope for the best.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dlfl said:


> I still have reservations. Take a look at these test results comparing AF drive performance on XP with- and without- running the WD alignmnet tool:
> http://hothardware.com/Reviews/WDs-...Format-Windows-XP-Users-Pay-Attention/?page=2
> We're talking 2X to 3X differences.
> 
> ...


The drive does not make more seek noise than the non AF drives I was using, both are quiet and you have to have your ear near the drive with the cover off to hear the drive at all.
I don't know about Linux, is the version of Linux different from Series 3 to Series 4? such that the Series 4 Linux does handle the new AF drives.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> (My previous WD10EADS order arrived today and as I expected was labeled AF so it's being returned.)
> 
> I just found a seller on eBay that has non-AF drives. 8 left after I just ordered mine:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Dig...d=51341265963967676&pid=100015&prg=1008&rk=1&
> ...


LOL - joke on me!
First: IGNORE THAT SELLER'S LISTINGS ON eBay!
I got the drive today and they shipped a WD10EAD*X* instead of the WD10EAD*S* they listed. No warning -- just shipped the wrong item. The drive is on its way back for refund. In response to my complaint they offered a lame excuse that they had ordered WD10EADS "from their supplier" but had not checked the drives, and they don't know if they will ever have WD10EADS. When I re-checked their listing earlier today (before complaining) they still showed 8 units in stock. Now they've changed the listing to a price of $299 but still showing 8 in stock. They explained "the price will keep anyone from buying until they get more in stock".  What a way to run a railroad!

I can't find anything that is WD10EADS without AF on eBay now. I'll probably just wait until I actually need a new drive and take a chance on one of the AF models. It's possible the WD10EAX would have worked and it wasn't labeled AF but I could find very little user experience with it, and besides, I wasn't going to reward the seller by keeping it.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

dlfl said:


> LOL - joke on me!
> First: IGNORE THAT SELLER'S LISTINGS ON eBay!
> I got the drive today and they shipped a WD10EAD*X* instead of the WD10EAD*S* they listed. No warning -- just shipped the wrong item. The drive is on its way back for refund. In response to my complaint they offered a lame excuse that they had ordered WD10EADS "from their supplier" but had not checked the drives, and they don't know if they will ever have WD10EADS. When I re-checked their listing earlier today (before complaining) they still showed 8 units in stock. Now they've changed the listing to a price of $299 but still showing 8 in stock. They explained "the price will keep anyone from buying until they get more in stock".  What a way to run a railroad!
> 
> I can't find anything that is WD10EADS without AF on eBay now. I'll probably just wait until I actually need a new drive and take a chance on one of the AF models. It's possible the WD10EAX would have worked and it wasn't labeled AF but I could find very little user experience with it, and besides, I wasn't going to reward the seller by keeping it.


If the X wasn't labeled AF, and you got it at a fairly decent price, you should have put the squeeze on them to give you a partial refund to get you not to return it even though they sent the wrong thing.

Then you'd have a drive (at a discount) you could use in a computer if nothing else.


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## farmermac (Jan 31, 2012)

dlfl said:


> LOL - joke on me!
> First: IGNORE THAT SELLER'S LISTINGS ON eBay!
> I got the drive today and they shipped a WD10EAD*X* instead of the WD10EAD*S* they listed. No warning -- just shipped the wrong item. The drive is on its way back for refund. In response to my complaint they offered a lame excuse that they had ordered WD10EADS "from their supplier" but had not checked the drives, and they don't know if they will ever have WD10EADS. When I re-checked their listing earlier today (before complaining) they still showed 8 units in stock. Now they've changed the listing to a price of $299 but still showing 8 in stock. They explained "the price will keep anyone from buying until they get more in stock".  What a way to run a railroad!
> 
> I can't find anything that is WD10EADS without AF on eBay now. I'll probably just wait until I actually need a new drive and take a chance on one of the AF models. It's possible the WD10EAX would have worked and it wasn't labeled AF but I could find very little user experience with it, and besides, I wasn't going to reward the seller by keeping it.


The eads is the old version. The eadx is the replacement. For all practical purposes most buyers wouldn't see a difference between the 2 drives.

Again I must ask, why don't you just get an actual wd a/v drive and skip all the hassles you're having tryin to find a NOS eads drive?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

farmermac said:


> The eads is the old version. The eadx is the replacement. For all practical purposes most buyers wouldn't see a difference between the 2 drives.
> 
> Again I must ask, why don't you just get an actual wd a/v drive and skip all the hassles you're having tryin to find a NOS eads drive?


Well, since you ask again:
1. "most buyers" have Win7 PC's and the AF drives are actually a better choice for them but my application is a TiVo HD and there is at least reason to question whether Advanced Format drives are a good choice for that.

2. What is an example of an "a/v" drive (that doesn't have AF)?


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## edtude (Oct 12, 2009)

Ok so just checking here, I am getting ready to try out the hard drive swap on my TivoHD so if I read all this right the WD20EURS should work fine and dandy and give me tons of recording space, correct?


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## farmermac (Jan 31, 2012)

yes its your best bet. Made for AV applications.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

lessd said:


> I guess we need more information on AF drives and TiVo.


Why can't you just execute this command on a properly working hard drive?

fdisk -lu /dev/sda

All the partitions' start sector numbers must be divisible by 8 for it to be aligned properly. If they already are, then order all the AF drives you want.

Make sure the 512-byte compatibility jumper on the hard drive is NOT installed -- it's really just supposed to be used with Windows XP only. It just adds one to the sector number internally, which silently moves the Windows XP start sector from its default of 63 to 64. But it just adds confusion when checking things manually.

Alignment is something that could easily be added to WinMFS. If it hasn't been already.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

BobCamp1 said:


> Why can't you just execute this command on a properly working hard drive?
> 
> fdisk -lu /dev/sda


You can, but if it's a TiVo drive it will tell you nothing, as fdisk doesn't read the Apple Partition Map which TiVo drives use.

Did you mean

pdisk -lu

?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> Why can't you just execute this command on a properly working hard drive?
> 
> fdisk -lu /dev/sda
> 
> ...


This is what i have done, I used a WD 2.5Tb drive and did just a copy from the original 320Tb Drive to this WD 2.5Tb AF drive. I did not expand or supersize the copy, so when put this WD 2.5Tb drive into a TP the record space should have been the same as the original 320Tb drive space was. The TP would not boot with this WD 2.5Tb drive in it, the same copy done on an AF WD 1Tb drive booted without problems, so then I expanded and supersized this WD 1Tb drive and all worked great.
So as i said we need more information on how these new AF drives work with TiVos of different series, as my work was only done on the Series 4 with 20.2.1.2 software.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

lessd said:


> This is what i have done, I used a WD 2.5Tb drive and did just a copy from the original 320Tb Drive to this WD 2.5Tb AF drive. I did not expand or supersize the copy, so when put this WD 2.5Tb drive into a TP the record space should have been the same as the original 320Tb drive space was. The TP would not boot with this WD 2.5Tb drive in it, the same copy done on an AF WD 1Tb drive booted without problems, so then I expanded and supersized this WD 1Tb drive and all worked great.
> So as i said we need more information on how these new AF drives work with TiVos of different series, as my work was only done on the Series 4 with 20.2.1.2 software.


What software did you use to do the copy?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> Why can't you just execute this command on a properly working hard drive?
> 
> fdisk -lu /dev/sda
> 
> ...


Can WinMFS be used with Premiers yet?

Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

unitron said:


> What software did you use to do the copy?


JMFS live CD


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

unitron said:


> You can, but if it's a TiVo drive it will tell you nothing, as fdisk doesn't read the Apple Partition Map which TiVo drives use.
> 
> Did you mean
> 
> ...


Yes, I did. I was only off by one letter. 

I don't remember if pdisk -l will output using sector numbers (vs. cylinder numbers). I don't know if the 'u' parameter will work, but all it does is force fdisk to output using sector numbers. If pdisk -l already does that, then it's not needed.

pdisk is on the MFSLive CD:

http://www.mfslive.org/softwareguidep6.htm#diskpartition


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

lessd said:


> This is what i have done, I used a WD 2.5Tb drive and did just a copy from the original 320Tb Drive to this WD 2.5Tb AF drive. I did not expand or supersize the copy, so when put this WD 2.5Tb drive into a TP the record space should have been the same as the original 320Tb drive space was. The TP would not boot with this WD 2.5Tb drive in it, the same copy done on an AF WD 1Tb drive booted without problems, so then I expanded and supersized this WD 1Tb drive and all worked great.
> So as i said we need more information on how these new AF drives work with TiVos of different series, as my work was only done on the Series 4 with 20.2.1.2 software.


That's a completely different problem. Hard drives greater than 2 TB cannot use an MBR, pdisk, or fdisk. They must use GPT instead (which are a completely different set of commands).

This problem has absolutely nothing to do with Advanced Format.

If Tivo and the MFSTools don't support GPT (I'm pretty sure they don't), you can't ever use a hard drive greater than 2 TB.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> That's a completely different problem. Hard drives greater than 2 TB cannot use an MBR, pdisk, or fdisk. They must use GPT instead (which are a completely different set of commands).
> 
> This problem has absolutely nothing to do with Advanced Format.
> 
> If Tivo and the MFSTools don't support GPT (I'm pretty sure they don't), you can't ever use a hard drive greater than 2 TB.


I connected this drive to my Windows 7 computer and could choose MBR or GPT type of formatting, with MBR I got only 2.2TB of space, with GPT I got the full 2.5Tb of space but the drive was not bootable without using some other software.
I thought all drives that were 2.5Tb or bigger *must* use AF, or is this an error on my part.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

lessd said:


> I connected this drive to my Windows 7 computer and could choose MBR or GPT type of formatting, with MBR I got only 2.2TB of space, with GPT I got the full 2.5Tb of space but the drive was not bootable without using some other software.
> I thought all drives that were 2.5Tb or bigger *must* use AF, or is this an error on my part.


There's a hard 2 TB limit using MBR. That limit doesn't exist using GPT.

Generally speaking, hard drives larger than 2 TB tend to have Advanced Formatting for practical reasons, but they're not required to.

FYI, BIOS only supports MBR which is why you couldn't boot using GPT as is. UEFI (BIOS's replacement) supports booting from GPT. Most Sandy-Bridge PCs support UEFI, though they may not state it in their manual.

There are various work-arounds to this, which basically fool the BIOS into thinking there is a bootable MBR partition with valid CHS parameters. That prevents the BIOS from throwing an error. Windows 7 takes over immediately after that, recognizes it's really a GPT drive, and boots the rest of the way.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

BobCamp1 said:


> Yes, I did. I was only off by one letter.
> 
> I don't remember if pdisk -l will output using sector numbers (vs. cylinder numbers). I don't know if the 'u' parameter will work, but all it does is force fdisk to output using sector numbers. If pdisk -l already does that, then it's not needed.
> 
> ...


Actually both

pdisk

and the Linux version of

fdisk

are on there, along with some other utilities with which one can also quickly get into trouble, like

hdparm

and

dd

and

dd_rescue

But they can, at times, also be lifesavers.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> There's a hard 2 TB limit using MBR. That limit doesn't exist using GPT.
> 
> Generally speaking, hard drives larger than 2 TB tend to have Advanced Formatting for practical reasons, but they're not required to.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that information, now I have a better understanding of these large hard drives, as my computer is 2.5 years old and uses the LGA1366 socket for my I7 I assume I don't have UEFI on this computer.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

lessd said:


> Thanks for that information, now I have a better understanding of these large hard drives, as my computer is 2.5 years old and uses the LGA1366 socket for my I7 I assume I don't have UEFI on this computer.


No problem. Most people don't know you really shouldn't buy a hard drive greater than 2 TB today. It just causes more problems than it solves. Maybe in a couple of years, once PCs and operating systems and third-party tools support it better.

Anyway, it's a definite no-no for a Tivo, which uses APM (same limits as MBR).


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> Yes, I did. I was only off by one letter.
> 
> I don't remember if pdisk -l will output using sector numbers (vs. cylinder numbers). I don't know if the 'u' parameter will work, but all it does is force fdisk to output using sector numbers. If pdisk -l already does that, then it's not needed.
> 
> ...


I looked online and found this partition table for the Series 1 (which is also what I have):

1 Apple_partition_map Apple 63 @ 1
2 Image Bootstrap 1 4096 @ 37893184 2.0M
3 Image Kernel 1 4096 @ 37897280 2.0M
4 Ext2 Root 1 262144 @ 37901376 128.0M
5 Image Bootstrap 2 4096 @ 38163520 2.0M
6 Image Kernel 2 4096 @ 38167616 2.0M
7 Ext2 Root 2 262144 @ 38171712 128.0M
8 Swap Linux swap 260096 @ 38433856 127.0M
9 Ext2 /var 262144 @ 38693952 128.0M
10 MFS MFS application region 1048576 @ 38956096 512.0M
11 MFS MFS media region 37893120 @ 64 18.1G
12 MFS New MFS Application 1024 @ 40004672
13 MFS MFS New MFS Media 194428928 @ 40005696 92.7G
14 Apple_Free Extra 7024 @ 234434624 3.4M

All of those sector numbers (except the partition map itself) are divisible by 8, so a Series 1 is already aligned to support an Advanced Format drive. But I think they changed the partition layout in the Series 2 Tivos (and beyond).


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