# TIVO HD questions - sub transfer, QAM mapping



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

First question. I currently have 3 Tivos:
S2 ST w/ lifetime subscription 
S2 DT purchased Oct/2006, 6.95/mo subscription
S1 that I reactivated July/2007, 10.95/mo subscription (1yr commitment)

I just ordered myself a TIVO HD. I don't really have a need to have four Tivos. Can I transfer one of the above subscriptions to the new Tivo?

If not, then what rate will I have to subscribe at? I've seen people mention they are getting the $6.95 multi-unit discount on their Tivo HD, but last time I activated a Tivo, I was stuck at 10.95. 

Second question -- I'm one of those people who watches HD content without a cablecard. I get the four networks in digital HD as well as a few other things such as Discovery (and gobs of video-on-demand and crap that I don't care about) that showed up when I do a channel-search. I'd really like to be able to record these in HD without having to pay money for a cable card. As I understand, the Tivo HD doesn't support mapping the HD channels to analog channel numbers and you can only record the HD channels by manually using time/channel/duration. Does anyone know if they plan to fix this? It sounds like a HUGE glaring omission. 

Finally, can I get my cable co (Comcast) to give me cablecards without paying to upgrade to digital cable? I'm already shelling out $100/mo to these crooks for analog cable and Internet. I don't want to have to give them any more money than I have to.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Second question -- I'm one of those people who watches HD content without a cablecard. I get the four networks in digital HD as well as a few other things such as Discovery (and gobs of video-on-demand and crap that I don't care about) that showed up when I do a channel-search. I'd really like to be able to record these in HD without having to pay money for a cable card. As I understand, the Tivo HD doesn't support mapping the HD channels to analog channel numbers and you can only record the HD channels by manually using time/channel/duration. Does anyone know if they plan to fix this? It sounds like a HUGE glaring omission.


Nobody from TiVo has said anything about doing QAM mapping, and the Series 3 has been out for quite awhile. You might do a search, as I recall someone figured out a hack, but it required removing the hard drive and adding some files manually. I have no idea if the hack would work on the TiVo HD though.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

smbaker said:


> First question. I currently have 3 Tivos:
> S2 ST w/ lifetime subscription
> S2 DT purchased Oct/2006, 6.95/mo subscription
> S1 that I reactivated July/2007, 10.95/mo subscription (1yr commitment)


if it was me i would transfer the S1 sub onto it. Once you get the TiVo HD just go online and relace the S1 TSN with the new TSN for your TiVo HD.



> If not, then what rate will I have to subscribe at? I've seen people mention they are getting the $6.95 multi-unit discount on their Tivo HD, but last time I activated a Tivo, I was stuck at 10.95.


 the 6.95 rate is for a 3 year commitment - you are paying 10.95 becasue you only committed for one year. Whne the initial year is up you can make a new 3 year contract and get 6.95 a month. 


> I'd really like to be able to record these in HD without having to pay money for a cable card. As I understand, the Tivo HD doesn't support mapping the HD channels to analog channel numbers and you can only record the HD channels by manually using time/channel/duration. Does anyone know if they plan to fix this? It sounds like a HUGE glaring omission.


it is not a glaring ommission. TiVo is not going to enable you to steal digital cable with full season pass functionality is all. The ywould get hammered by cable companies if they did. The good news is - you can buy an digital antenna and get these same stations OTA and TiVo will supply guide data for that and mix it in with the cable guide data.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

> it is not a glaring ommission. TiVo is not going to enable you to steal digital cable with full season pass functionality is all. The ywould get hammered by cable companies if they did. The good news is - you can buy an digital antenna and get these same stations OTA and TiVo will supply guide data for that and mix it in with the cable guide data.


How is this theft of service? I thought the cable cos were required to broadcast the networks in HD. You mean to tell me that with encryption and cablecard capability and the virtual monopoly that the cable cos have, they're broadcasting HD networks in the clear by MISTAKE ? Someone ought to tell them!!!!


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo is not going to enable you to steal digital cable


Nobody is stealing anything. The FCC _requires _ that local digital channels rebroadcasted over cable be unencrypted, and available on the most basic tier of cable service. This was done to ease the transition to digital plug-and-play service, and to keep at least a minimum level of service open/unencrypted; you better believe that without such a rule, cable companies would encrypt _everything _ in a heartbeat. You have a right to these channels without a CableCARD. TiVo has chosen not to support them at this time; that's their right, but as a business decision I think it is a mistake.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> The good news is - you can buy an digital antenna and get these same stations OTA


That's great, if you can get them. Not everyone is in a geographic location that allows them to receive all their digital locals OTA.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Saxion said:


> TiVo has chosen not to support them at this time; that's their right, but as a business decision I think it is a mistake.


So do we know that this is a business decision? or is it something that has simply not been implemented yet? [I'm really hoping the latter]

I can't see why they would make this business decision, unless there is a backroom deal with the cable companies (or cablecard vendor) in order to force the consumer to upgrade to digital cable, which many consumers do not need or want. My personal viewing habits are such that I watch 90% of programming from the networks.

If the cable cos and Tivo have conspired to specifically prevent the Tivo HD from recording content that is mandated by the FCC to be unencrypted and available on basic cable, then this does not bode well for Tivo. Sure, it's a free world and Tivo can do what they want, but alienating customers is never a good idea and will end up with the product getting a bad reputation.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

By "business decision", I meant the decision analyzed from a business point-of-view; I wasn't implying exactly why they've done what they've done. No one really knows for sure why TiVo decided not to support unencrypted digital cable channels without a CableCARD, but the guesses range from support costs, to user confusion, to the instability of QAM assignments in some markets, to a desire to "play nice" with big cable (who are happy to obscure the fact that these channels come "for free" with basic cable) in order to grease the wheels for making deals to host the TiVo UI on cable-owned settop boxes.

Regardless of why, clearly a decision was made. From a business point-of-view (i.e. bottom and top line revenue), I think it was a mistake.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Tivo may not have any means to do [automatic] QAM mapping if that data isn't offered by Tribune.

Back when I had Comcast, they would periodically re-arrange the QAM lineup every month or two.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Saxion said:


> to a desire to "play nice" with big cable (who are happy to obscure the fact that these channels come "for free" with basic cable)


That's what happened to me. I had no idea until I brought the TV home back in December and did a channel scan that there was any such thing as a an unencrypted HD channel. In fact, browsing TV's at the local costco, I think each one of them had a 'you must buy digital cable or satellite to get this picture' type of disclaimer sticker under each one of them.

Going on comcast's website, I could find no mention that basic cable comes with digital HD channels, nor do the channel lineups include the channel numbers for the HD channels.

Although I'm no fan of government regulation, I think this is one place where some increased oversight from the FCC may be helpful. They may be abiding by the word of the law, but by obfuscating the HD channels, they are certainly violating the spirit of it.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

Ok, I just had almost this exact scenario. I have a series 2 DT whose commitment is up in 10 days. I called Tivo and they gave me the MSD for one month, and then when the commitment on the s2 is up, I'm just going to cancel it. She did say I could "transfer" the Series 2 sub to the HD, but suggested it'd be easer to do it the other way.

Also, I get all the open QAM channels with the HD, but they aren't mapped to the right channels and I don't get any guide info. They are perfectly watchable, and you can use trick play, pause, etc. You could probably setup manual recordings, but of course if they move around alot that's not very useful. Honestly, I want cable cards (will be calling to get them ordered soon) so I can get some of the non-open channels.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bkdtv said:


> Tivo may not have any means to do [automatic] QAM mapping if that data isn't offered by Tribune.
> 
> Back when I had Comcast, they would periodically re-arrange the QAM lineup every month or two.


If TiVo can map CBS HD at (in my case) Ch 233 than why without a CC can't they map the same data to (again in my case) to 3-1 (the CBS HD free cable ch.) ?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

lessd said:


> If TiVo can map CBS HD at (in my case) Ch 233 than why without a CC can't they map the same data to (again in my case) to 3-1 (the CBS HD free cable ch.) ?


I don't understand your question.

The cable company provides remapping information for digital cable with CableCard. With CableCard, you get a table of QAM channels and their appropriate channel numbers. For example, it tells your Tivo that QAM channel 106-11 is actually channel 205.

A small percentage of cable systems also offer PSIP info with channel mapping information. Some do this for their locals, but very rarely do they do it for all their QAM channels. For example, a cable provider may include PSIP information telling your Tivo that QAM channel 98-4 is actually channel 5. If your cable provider offers that PSIP guide information, Tivo will use it and display it as channel 5 with the appropriate guide information.

Tribune does provide remapping information for OTA channels.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> A small percentage of cable systems also offer PSIP info with channel mapping information. Some do this for their locals, but very rarely do they do it for all their QAM channels. For example, a cable provider may include PSIP information telling your Tivo that QAM channel 98-4 is actually channel 5. If your cable provider offers that PSIP guide information, Tivo will use it and display it as channel 5 *with the appropriate guide information*.


That last part is incorrect...even if PSIP maps the channel to the equivalent OTA channel number, the TiVo will _not _ supply guide data for it. TiVo separates "antenna channels" from "cable channels", and will not use guide data from the former on channels in the latter, even if the channel numbers match.

The above is one very simple way TiVo could fix this issue for a large number of users: if PSIP data is present, then use it to obtain the channel number (which it already does) and look up that channel number in the "antenna channel group" to supply guide data for it. Should be trivially easy.

Also, cable companies are _required _ to pass along the PSIP data if received from the broadcaster. I suspect the number of markets where this occurs is much higher than "a small percentage"; I suspect it is "most".


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Tivo may not have any means to do [automatic] QAM mapping if that data isn't offered by Tribune.


It isn't _currently _ offered by Tribune Media Services, but it _could _ be with some effort on their part.

Or, TiVo could use PSIP to obtain the OTA channel number and look that up in the guide, as explained above.

Or, TiVo could allow the user to manually associate the 6 or so locals (be they QAM or PSIP channel numbers) with the matching channel guide data for antenna-received channels; if QAM frequencies change, the user would be responsible for updating the map information.

Any of the above would be better than nothing, which is what we have now.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

Saxion said:


> It isn't _currently _ offered by Tribune Media Services, but it _could _ be with some effort on their part.
> 
> Or, TiVo could use PSIP to obtain the OTA channel number and look that up in the guide, as explained above.
> 
> ...


Cable companies don't provide channel mapping data to Tribune. Think of how that's arranged in the same way that satellite companies handle transponder assignments. Month to month these may change, and the boxes normally handle finding the frequency. That's what the cable card is for, otherwise the box has no way to know what channel 88-4 is for example.

The rest of your suggestions would be nice, but remember that features on the box would have to have customer and technical support behind it. It's not as easy as putting a feature out there that a few hardcore geeks on TCF want and then expect joe consumer to not call in to customer support when TWC changes the maps and screws it all up. To the customer, it looks like Tivo screwed up, even if it wasn't their fault. Really, requiring a cable card is the best way to handle it since it puts the onus on the cable company for providing correct data in the CC system, which they will, since their boxes use the same data.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Saxion said:


> That last part is incorrect...even if PSIP maps the channel to the equivalent OTA channel number, the TiVo will _not _ supply guide data for it. TiVo separates "antenna channels" from "cable channels", and will not use guide data from the former on channels in the latter, even if the channel numbers match.


I think you misinterpreted my comment.

I was referring to the instance where cable companies use PSIP data to remap QAM channels to the same channel numbers used on cable, which may or may not be the same as the OTA channel number. It is my understanding that a few few Comcast systems do this.

I now have FiOS, but when I had Comcast, they didn't pass PSIP data, so I had no way to test. However, are you saying that if channel 5 on Comcast is FOX5, and QAM channel 98-4 is remapped to FOX5, you won't get guide information for that channel?


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## Austin_Martin (Sep 13, 2006)

> That last part is incorrect...even if PSIP maps the channel to the equivalent OTA channel number, the TiVo will not supply guide data for it.


You're making a mistake here. The psip can map the channel to the proper cable channel number. When I didn't have cablecards in the Austin area, I did a channel scan, and the HD locals which are QAM were found. They then had the proper guide data for it.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

The "customer support" thing seems to keep popping up when it comes to QAM mapping, and it also keeps getting dismissed as some sort of fringe nerd desire, which is just as confusing.

Movie downloads were a geek's wet dream once. Tivo's CS managed to survive that addition, as well as all other features that were nerdy at one time.

QAM mapping wouldn't add any more of a tech support crisis than any other feature that's prone to real-world errors. For all anybody knows, it's on the to-do list along with everything else that's been missing since day 1 with the S3. The "CS" excuse is just a guess.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

I don't have an S3 or a TiVoHD, but I can relate what Comcast is doing in our area with PSIP data on HDTV channels.

The PSIP data provided here on Comcast maps channels to the OTA logical channel numbers, NOT the cable channel numbers being used on their own boxes.

For example, Comcast numbers the HDTV channels in the 100 series here, e.g., channel 107 (HD) on cable (with a Comcast box) is actually on 111-2 (IIRC) natively on cable and 39-1 natively on OTA and maps to 7-1 on OTA and on cable (QAM without a cable card); the old analog channel is 7.

It gets worse on some channels. Channel 16 analog OTA is carried on channel 6 analog cable. The PSIP data on the cable native HDTV channel (can't remember the exact channel assignment right now) causes a QAM tuner to treat it as channel 16-1, like it would for OTA reception. 

A cable card would map the channels to the Comcast STB equivalents, enabling the the cable guide data to match. 

I can't imagine a general TiVoHD or S3 user being able to manage manual mapping if they don't understand the concepts and details of channel mapping, constantly-changing native cable channel assignments (at least here in our Comcast service area), cable-specified unique HDTV channel numbers for their STBs and guide data, and so on.

I can see why TiVo would chose not to offer or support such a confusing arena. Even if you do understand PSIP and cable channel mapping from native cable channels, it is still quite a chore to keep up with ongoing changes.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The "customer support" thing seems to keep popping up when it comes to QAM mapping, and it also keeps getting dismissed as some sort of fringe nerd desire, which is just as confusing.
> 
> Movie downloads were a geek's wet dream once. Tivo's CS managed to survive that addition, as well as all other features that were nerdy at one time.
> 
> QAM mapping wouldn't add any more of a tech support crisis than any other feature that's prone to real-world errors. For all anybody knows, it's on the to-do list along with everything else that's been missing since day 1 with the S3. The "CS" excuse is just a guess.


Those are two totally different realms. Movie downloads can be done in such a way, since the box already has networking built in, that it doesn't take a nerd to know how to do (see iTunes).

Channel mapping is totally different. It'd be dependent on the customer watching a channel long enough to know what it is, write down the QAM number, and going through the mechanism to pick the right channel out of the list Tribune supplies. Plus, as mentioned by many people before, a lot of these channels change monthly or even weekly without any notice. When a customer misses a recording, the customer is invariably going to blame Tivo, which is going to generate a call, even if the CSR has to push the problem off on the cable company, that initial call costs more money than they would make off additional subscribers who are waiting for QAM mapping (which I suspect is very close to zero)


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> QAM mapping wouldn't add any more of a tech support crisis than any other feature that's prone to real-world errors. For all anybody knows, it's on the to-do list along with everything else that's been missing since day 1 with the S3. The "CS" excuse is just a guess.


I agree. Also, as I understand it most TVs with QAM tuners do this mapping just fine without CableCARDs?


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

MickeS said:


> I agree. Also, as I understand it most TVs with QAM tuners do this mapping just fine without CableCARDs?


No, actually, most TVs DON'T. The issue is most cable companies don't send PSIP (mapping data that doesn't depend on cable card) with their channels.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Movie downloads are merely one example. That the vast majority of wireless network adapters don't work didn't stop them from offering that feature. They even went out of their way to point out the precise adapter sub-revisions we needed. There are plenty of other examples, but this line of debate is off-point.

Those that manually record QAM channels are aware of the potential reliability issues, or quickly become aware of them. The problem exists whether there is a manual mapping feature or not.

"Blame Tivo" might be the reaction of those that don't understand what's happened, but it already is anyway because the problem exists all the same and they don't educate them otherwise. So add a warning screen just like they have for other features. Half-baked "manual recordings only" support with no warnings/education at all sounds like they're already asking for CS calls as it is. Which is why I doubt CS is a reason not to have it.

Adding mapping would at least give us SOME reprieve to be able to reclaim our season passes, which is supposed to be one of the primary selling points over other DVRs.

My QAM channels haven't moved since I got the S3 back in Feb. I may be lucky, but I want my season passes back all the same.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Saxion said:


> Nobody is stealing anything. The FCC _requires _ that local digital channels rebroadcasted over cable be unencrypted, and available on the most basic tier of cable service. This was done to ease the transition to digital plug-and-play service, and to keep at least a minimum level of service open/unencrypted; you better believe that without such a rule, cable companies would encrypt _everything _ in a heartbeat. You have a right to these channels without a CableCARD. TiVo has chosen not to support them at this time; that's their right, but as a business decision I think it is a mistake.


OK - steal was too harsh a word and I should not have used that. Though the Original post on this was how to get these channels with paying for digital cable 

and that is the point. Currently these channels are provided guide data by the cable company as digital channels and typically they do have an analog equivalent in the basic tier. Maybe not schedule for schedule but equivalent. If TiVo did overcome the technical hurdles to make a mapping that would stay solid and follow availble guide data they wouldstill be offering channles to cable customers that other customers with the same teir of service are not getting. Good for TiVo users for suree but bad for TiVo inc. as the business environment would gte worse for them since cable companies would have something bad (from their perspective) to point to during FCC hearings and so forth.

I would love for the FCC to get a backbone and actually start enforcing their rules in a unifrom *and full* manner. IT would be great if cable companies had to make sure they got the right PSIP data from upstream and then broadcast that downstream or else report same to the FCC to step in and make sure it is corrected. It would be great if the FCC enforced providing correct guide data for these channels. It would be great if the FCC.................. Well you get the idea. For TiVo to try and work a miracle under such conditions would just end up costing them business more so then generating business.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> If TiVo did overcome the technical hurdles to make a mapping that would stay solid and follow availble guide data they wouldstill be offering channles to cable customers that other customers with the same teir of service are not getting.


With all due respect... what the hell are you talking about?

Anyone can get these channels - that's the whole point of offering them "in the clear". If other people don't happen to have the equipment to get them, that's not our problem. And many DO have TVs that can get them. The cable companies can NOT point to this as "something bad" - this is the WHOLE POINT of the mandate to offer them for free.

That the cable company prefers to not tell you about them is another matter.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Movie downloads are merely one example. That the vast majority of wireless network adapters don't work didn't stop them from offering that feature. They even went out of their way to point out the precise adapter sub-revisions we needed. There are plenty of other examples, but this line of debate is off-point..


Actually the wireless adpater is on point. It is also something that Tivo had no control over 3 rd party adpaters . They were spending considerable resources for little gain as in the end all they had was upset customers as things were not rock solid. What a losing battle it was to point out which wireless adapters to use with many frustrating posts on getting adapters and getting them to work. "No, you need the adapter that has the blue dot on the box and the back of the adapter will have rev. 1a on it if you take it out of the box. Any other looks exactly the same with exact same model number will not work. There are reports Best Buy still had a couple" really only makes sense to geeks and no consumer was going to put up with it for long. Tivo finally just made their own wireless adapter and offer support for just their own now.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MickeS said:


> With all due respect... what the hell are you talking about?
> 
> Anyone can get these channels - that's the whole point of offering them "in the clear". If other people don't happen to have the equipment to get them, that's not our problem. And many DO have TVs that can get them. The cable companies can NOT point to this as "something bad" - this is the WHOLE POINT of the mandate to offer them for free.
> 
> That the cable company prefers to not tell you about them is another matter.


yes and on the TiVo it works just like a TV with digital tuner. Does the TV offer guide data? Does the TV map it correctly to say channel 323 or is it channel 8-3?
I am talking about providing guide data for these specific channels so that a season pass could pick them up and use them. That is the hurdle for TiVo. People have, with the S3 and now TiVo HD, tuned these channels in directly and can manually record them all they want. TiVo has passed along exactly what the cable company provides and to do any more than that puts the responsibility on Tivo's shoulders to keep it correct while the cable companies gleefully change them around as they like with no regard or warning to TiVo.

what other customers are not getting is the mapping and guide data. I am not opposed to this at all mind you, I am just pointing out that from a Cable Company perspective TiVo was messing with their line up. TiVo relies on cable companies good faith negotiations on a number of issues, and that of course is already tenuous at best. TiVo needs to consider the impact on that with each move they make


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes and on the TiVo it works just like a TV with digital tuner. Does the TV offer guide data? Does the TV map it correctly to say channel 323 or is it channel 8-3?


Well for example, the HD Homerun is PC based, so it does indeed map these channels correctly.

I know there are TVs out there that can do the mapping automatically without CableCARDs.

I don't think this is anything but a technical TiVo issue - it has little to do with their relationship with the cable companies who already provide the signals for free...


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Well if anyone would actually like to see the convoluted intensive manual process needed to map clear QAM in Beyond TV 4.0 (using a HDHomerun digital tuner). You can check it out here:

Maping Clear QAM with Beyond TV

After you read the above process I think its pretty clear that there is no way TiVo would or should do something like this.

Thanks,


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> OK - steal was too harsh a word and I should not have used that. Though the Original post on this was how to get these channels with paying for digital cable


My original post was on how to get the local network HD channels, which are mandated by the FCC to be broadcast unencrypted by the cable cos with their basic service to have guide data with the Tivo. I pay a healthy fee to the cable co for my standard (non-digital) service. If the FCC says I am entitled to these channels with that service, then I am entitled to receive these channels. I'm not trying to avoid paying for them -- the fee that I already pay includes those channels by law, and I want to receive what I am due.

This is a perfectly reasonable expectation of the consumer. If a device (Tivo HD) is marketed as an HDTV device, then at the very least it ought to be able to receive, record, and have guide data for the the HDTV channels that are mandated by the FCC to be broadcast in the clear.

I admit I don't understand all this talk of PSIP streams and such. All I know is that I plug my HDTV into the cable outlet, turn it on, my TV claims I get the following:

FOX = 34-1
NBC = 16-1
ABC = 9-1
CBS = 8-1

These channel numbers match the local channel numbers of my TV stations. I think (but I have not tried) that these are the same channel numbers that I would get with an OTA antenna. If my TV can do this, then the Tivo can do this. They don't change; they don't migrate; they don't move around. They've been fixed since I plugged the TV in back in December.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Well for example, the HD Homerun is PC based, so it does indeed map these channels correctly.
> 
> I know there are TVs out there that can do the mapping automatically without CableCARDs....


it does not map the channels a person maps the channels and it is not a simple point and click thing either. Also HD Homerun is not in any negotiations with cable companies and works with open source. IT is a great idea and perfect for us geek types but not something TiVo would look to for a best practice.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> it does not map the channels a person maps the channels and it is not a simple point and click thing either. Also HD Homerun is not in any negotiations with cable companies and works with open source. IT is a great idea and perfect for us geek types but not something TiVo would look to for a best practice.


I know the HD Homerun takes some work to get it done.

But see the post above for a TV that can do it automatically. There's no reason TiVo wouldn't be able to update software to to it automatically too, I'd think.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

smbaker said:


> I admit I don't understand all this talk of PSIP streams and such. All I know is that I plug my HDTV into the cable outlet, turn it on, my TV claims I get the following:
> 
> FOX = 34-1
> NBC = 16-1
> ...


if you have the S3 or TiVo HD you should be able to tune these same exact channels no problem on the TiVo. I think the skip to next tick mark button on the TiVo remote will let you enter the dash. Does the TV provide guide data for those stations?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> But see the post above for a TV that can do it automatically. There's no reason TiVo wouldn't be able to update software to to it automatically too, I'd think.


Actually I don't think it is the TV thats doing it more likely its the cable company is sending the correct remapping data with the channels stream like OTA. With digital OTA most channels are not broadcast on the channel your TV shows the channel on - as an example my local ABC channel is channel 13 for OTA analog, the digital version shows as 13.1 on a digital TV but is broadcast on a completely different channel. When the TV scans the channel the remapping info is in the stream so you never see the actual channel being used just the one that represents the same number everyone using analog is used to. There is no reason cable companies couldn't do the same thing - the problem is many are not and so far the FCC isn't forcing them to do it.

Thanks,


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if you have the S3 or TiVo HD you should be able to tune these same exact channels no problem on the TiVo. I think the skip to next tick mark button on the TiVo remote will let you enter the dash. Does the TV provide guide data for those stations?


I'm not at the TV at the moment, so I can't be sure, but I think it does display some info, like the name of the station and maybe the program name/duration. 99% of the time I watch TV through my S2DT (in standard definition).

The Tivo HD is due in tomorrow, so we'll see what happens when it shows up.

Scott


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

jblake said:


> ...
> Also, I get all the open QAM channels with the HD, but they aren't mapped to the right channels and I don't get any guide info.
> ...


Actually they aren't mapped to the same channels as used by the cable box, but they may be mapped to the right channel. All the FCC requires is that they be assigned a virtual channel number, but the VCN doesn't have to match anything else.

I can't think of a logical reason to do this except to screw users with clear QAM tuners. TWC-SC used to use the cable box numbers (as well as encrypting some local digital channels that weren't supposed to be encrypted), but changed their system not too. If you can believe the local techs, neither they nor the fols operating the cable plant in Columbia were aware of any changes when this was changed.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> QAM mapping wouldn't add any more of a tech support crisis than any other feature that's prone to real-world errors. For all anybody knows, it's on the to-do list along with everything else that's been missing since day 1 with the S3. The "CS" excuse is just a guess.


I agree. If they wanted to add the feature w/o support costs, they could just add it as an SPS enabled feature just like 30-second skip.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> I think you misinterpreted my comment. I was referring to the instance where cable companies use PSIP data to remap QAM channels to the same channel numbers used on cable, which may or may not be the same as the OTA channel number.





Austin_Martin said:


> You're making a mistake here. The psip can map the channel to the proper cable channel number.


You are both correct. 

PSIP data can either be: 1) missing entirely, 2) present and containing the local OTA channel number, or 3) present and containing the cable channel number.

Most markets should use case (2). This was how the system was envisioned to work by the FCC and why the FCC requires the cable company to pass on PSIP data if received from the broadcaster. In this case (which covers most people), the TiVo will not supply guide data (but could with a trivial modification).

Case (3) is very, very rare...I know Austin works this way and I guess there might be one or two others. It requires the cable company to generate the PSIP data themselves (containing the cable channel number) rather than pass on what they receive from the broadcaster. Also in this case, you might have to beg and plead with TiVo anyway to get them to supply the guide data...I know one user in Austin had to do this, and TiVo had to contact the cable provider to verify that their PSIP data was formed this way intentionally.

At any rate, the vast, vast majority of people are either in group (1) or (2) above, so I suggest we steer the conversation in that direction, and this was the market I was addressing. For such people, there is currently no way to get guide data.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> I agree. If they wanted to add the feature w/o support costs, they could just add it as an SPS enabled feature just like 30-second skip.


Do you actually look at what would be required to manually setup Clear QAM with guide data? Let me give you a short run down.


You would do a digital channel scan - this could easly result in several hundred channels which might or might not have the same channel numbers as the official line up. 
You would then go channel by channel first determining if the channel was encrypted or not and then for the unencrypted channels you would have to figure out what channel it was in your cable companies normal digital line up and tell TiVo to remap the channel to the official line up number. 
Any time your cable company decided to move channels around (which some people say is happening often) you would have to go through the whole process again. 

You actually think this could be a hidden feature?

Thanks,


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> Do you actually look at what would be required to manually setup Clear QAM with guide data? Let me give you a short run down.
> 
> 
> You would do a digital channel scan - this could easly result in several hundred channels which might or might not have the same channel numbers as the official line up.
> ...


That is *your* implementation. Mine is much simpler.

1) do zero scanning of channels
2) user goes on his local HD forum at avsforum.com and gets a list of channels from someone who's done it already
3) user types in the channel, verifies the picture, presses info, scrolls to remap icon, enters new channel #

I have an alternate implementation if the cable company provides PSIP.
4) once a night, scan the channel range for the original PSIP prior to remap. That tells you the new location, make the change automatically for the user. Alternatively if PSIP is provided, TiVo could just fix their implementation so subchannels can refer to cable antenna instead of forcing OTA antenna.

Users who don't know any better just get the CableCARD and never worry about enabling the hidden remapping feature.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> However, are you saying that if channel 5 on Comcast is FOX5, and QAM channel 98-4 is remapped to FOX5, you won't get guide information for that channel?


Generally the OTA channel number for a digital channel (i.e. 5.1 for FOX HD) is not the same as the cable channel number for the same (i.e. 706 for FOX HD). OTA digital channel numbers generally include a subchannel (".x" or "-x" notation) while cable does not. So to rephrase your question...if channel 5.1 is the OTA channel number for FOX HD, and QAM channel 98-4 is remapped to channel 5.1 by PSIP, then no you won't get guide information for that channel. Now, if PSIP instead mapped it to 706, you could get guide data...but that type of PSIP mapping is exceedingly rare.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> 3) user types in the channel, verifies the picture, presses info, scrolls to remap icon, enters new channel #


I have not worked with clear QAM but OTA digital does not work this way you have to do a scan to get anything (at least on the 2 TVs I have access too), I assumed QAM was the same does anyone know for sure?

Thanks,


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> I have not worked with clear QAM but OTA digital does not work this way you have to do a scan to get anything (at least on the 2 TVs I have access too), I assumed QAM was the same does anyone know for sure?


I have a Samsung OTA digital tuner, Sharp LCD with OTA/QAM digital tuner, and a MyHD MDP-130 PC OTA/QAM digital tuner.

They all allow me to just enter the RF channel # and they will tune. If PSIP is present, they will remap the location.

The initial setup might be stupid-proof and force a full scan, but it isn't necessary and anytime after the initial scan, you can enter the RF for any new channel and it will pick it up.

It works the same for OTA and QAM.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

Budget_HT said:


> I can't imagine a general TiVoHD or S3 user being able to manage manual mapping if they don't understand the concepts and details of channel mapping, constantly-changing native cable channel assignments (at least here in our Comcast service area), cable-specified unique HDTV channel numbers for their STBs and guide data, and so on.


This is why the FCC requires that PSIP be carried through on cable as received from the broadcaster. The goal was to allow the QAM freq to change, but the channel would always be mapped to the same place. PSIP is the right place to manage this complexity. If PSIP is in place and used correctly (and generally it is), this is not all that hard.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Saxion said:


> PSIP is the right place to manage this complexity.


If the FCC required PSIP of every cable channel (including ADS) and required the mappings to match the cable lineup channels, then all this can be managed in PSIP. If not, then there is only a partial solution.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Saxion said:


> This is why the FCC requires that PSIP be carried through on cable as received from the broadcaster. The goal was to allow the QAM freq to change, but the channel would always be mapped to the same place. PSIP is the right place to manage this complexity. If PSIP is in place and used correctly (and generally it is), this is not all that hard.


there have been plenty of cases of OTA channels not being received correctly on the TiVo and it usually rolls back to this PSIP data and the broadcast station not doing the correct thing. There have been threads here and in AVSforum about this. I am not going to look for them to include in this post but there is definitely an issue with broadcasters not following the standard. Interesting to Note that TVs do seem to not have as much trouble with this as a DVR does.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> Do you actually look at what would be required to manually setup Clear QAM with guide data? Let me give you a short run down.
> 
> 
> You would do a digital channel scan - this could easly result in several hundred channels which might or might not have the same channel numbers as the official line up.
> Thanks,


As I understand (from someone else's post), the S3 and HD already have the capability to do a channel scan, so this part is already implemented. In fact, this is also how you perform setup on most TVs, so users should be familiar with the concept of a channel scan.

All we need is a simple way to associate guide data with a QAM channel. For example in my case, tell Tivo either CABLE 16.1 = GUIDE(OTA 16.1), or that CABLE 16.1 = GUIDE(CABLE 6). For me these are the OTA NBC and the analog cable NBC respectively. Either would produce correct result.

I only need to do this with four channels, and I'm a happy camper.

I would be perfectly happy if the Tivo treated them as seperate channels, like it presumably does already with cable and OTA channels.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> there have been plenty of cases of OTA channels not being received correctly on the TiVo and it usually rolls back to this PSIP data and the broadcast station not doing the correct thing.


Then it is in the broadcaster's best interest to fix it. There is a market force at work here: providing accurate PSIP data, both OTA and in the cable feed, makes it easier for people to find/tune/make use of your channel. This will become even more critical as the analog shutoff date approaches. Market forces should push for correct PSIP data, and FCC regulations require this PSIP data to make it out over cable. Everything should be in place for TiVo to trivially supply guide data for them.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

jblake said:


> Plus, as mentioned by many people before, a lot of these channels change monthly or even weekly without any notice.


I am convinced this is a total myth. Every time I ask this, I get zero responses, but here goes again: can anyone reading this say with certainty that the QAM frequencies of their local HD channels (ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, WB, PBS) change any more than, say, once per year? I don't mean the rest of the cable channel lineup...just the above networks. I know mine have not moved in well over 2 years.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Saxion said:


> I am convinced this is a total myth. Every time I ask this, I get zero responses, but here goes again: can anyone reading this say with certainty that the QAM frequencies of their local HD channels (ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, WB, PBS) change any more than, say, once per year? I don't mean the rest of the cable channel lineup...just the above networks. I know mine have not moved in well over 2 years.


I don't know yet, but mine have been the same for a month and half at least.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Saxion said:


> I am convinced this is a total myth. Every time I ask this, I get zero responses, but here goes again: can anyone reading this say with certainty that the QAM frequencies of their local HD channels (ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, WB, PBS) change any more than, say, once per year? I don't mean the rest of the cable channel lineup...just the above networks. I know mine have not moved in well over 2 years.


When I had Comcast, they changed the QAM numbers on my locals about four times in a period of six months. That's what led me to give up my QAM tuner. This was also about two years ago, so it's possible they no longer do it as often; it's possible they are now more mindful of QAM viewers due to customer complaints.

Most of the changes occurred when they were adding channels. Cable companies obviously don't move around channels for the hell of it. They do it to optimize and tweak. If the cable company isn't re-encoding their local channels, they may be forced to change their lineup whenever the broadcaster changes the amount of bandwidth they allocate to their HD feed. If the local CBS affiliate increases their HD feed from 14Mbps to 17Mbps, as some do during the NFL season, would require a QAM change on many systems.

We do have a lot of new HDTV channels on the way over the next six months, so that is the period where I would expect to see more changes in the QAM lineup.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Saxion said:


> Then it is in the broadcaster's best interest to fix it. .


you would think so and I agree. Some boradcasters have fixed it, some say they are fine as is even though they do not follow the standard. What's a 3rd party to do? If it was me iwould do what TiVo has done and just get the HD line out the door and work on the features currently in the product line and get cable card solid and so forth. Then once the HD line is finally feature set and running steady I would have this on my list of things to do to make the DVR even better.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Tivo may not have any means to do [automatic] QAM mapping if that data isn't offered by Tribune.
> 
> Back when I had Comcast, they would periodically re-arrange the QAM lineup every month or two.


Don't have to start with automatic mapping - just give us manual mapping WHICH WOULD BE A TRIVIAL CHANGE TO THE EXISTING FUNCTION.

The Sony DHG series had this and it was/is quite easy to use.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Saxion said:


> I am convinced this is a total myth. Every time I ask this, I get zero responses, but here goes again: can anyone reading this say with certainty that the QAM frequencies of their local HD channels (ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, WB, PBS) change any more than, say, once per year? I don't mean the rest of the cable channel lineup...just the above networks. I know mine have not moved in well over 2 years.


My network HD QAM channels haven't moved at least since February when I got the S3. I heard they switched to their current positions sometime last fall, but nothing so far this year...

But I did a re-scan about a week ago and found that they had added A&E HD to the open QAM lineup. Bonus.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Saxion said:


> I am convinced this is a total myth. Every time I ask this, I get zero responses, but here goes again: can anyone reading this say with certainty that the QAM frequencies of their local HD channels (ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, WB, PBS) change any more than, say, once per year? I don't mean the rest of the cable channel lineup...just the above networks. I know mine have not moved in well over 2 years.


I can say for sure they move stuff around often in my area. There are 2 types of moves. One is to a different sequencing (subchannel #) within the same channel. The second is to a complete different RF.

The 2nd type was happening quite often about a year ago, then it calmed down to about once a month, then when ADS came, there were changes all the time again, then it calmed down to about once a month again.

The 1st type was also happening a lot, but now happens about once a week. My TV is able to recover from the 1st type by using some identifier to search for the same channel within the same frequency but possibly in a different sequence.

Whenever we get new channels, I can expect that some stuff gets moved around.

My area multiplexes NBC-HD and ESPN-HD. I remember on my PC QAM tuner I had it set to record some shows on NBC-HD on 116.1 and it worked for a while, then one day my show didn't record and I found out that NBC-HD had changed to 116.2 and ESPN-HD was now 116.1, so my PC QAM tuner tried to record an encrypted channel thus nothing got recorded.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> Don't have to start with automatic mapping - just give us manual mapping WHICH WOULD BE A TRIVIAL CHANGE TO THE EXISTING FUNCTION.


It really doesn't seem like it would be particularly hard, no.

For example, in the "Channels I receive" screen (or whatever it's called), there could simply be an option to press a key when you have a channel highlighted that would take you to another screen where you would enter the channel it should be mapped to. Seems like a piece of cake.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

sfhub said:


> I can say for sure they move stuff around often in my area.


What area are you in?


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

The FCC does not require all cable companies to pass PSIP, only if over a certain size. It might be 750Mhz or 1Ghz I can't remember exactly.

I don't think PSIP can be passed as received from the broadcasters, PSIP is used to describe the program streams on a channel. My local PBS broadcasts 3 channels, their PSIP says program 3 should display as 8.1, program 4 as 8.2 and program 5 as 8.3. Cable companies can fit much more in a 6Mhz channel than OTA can so its typical to mix OTA channels with cable stations and other OTA stations. The PSIP would need to be regenerated by the cable company to map the virtual channels to the correct cable channel and program number.

I know my local cable is modifying because the local forum reports several of the local channels have PSIP data mapping them to 0-0 and they map correctly OTA.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

I really really doubt that adding mapping is a "trivial" addition. Are you guys software developers? Do you not realize that even small changes such as reordering a menu requires weeks of testing to make sure it doesn't break other things? Do you even know how Tivo works under the hood? Just because you *really* *really* want it doesn't make it a trivial addition. I would LOVE to have QAM mapping, but I know it's just not feasible and not going to happen. The bottom line is the Tivo HD box specifically says you have to have cable cards to get digital cable channels. I think it's a bonus that you get to watch the free ones at all.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Saxion said:


> ...
> PSIP data can either be: 1) missing entirely, 2) present and containing the local OTA channel number, or 3) present and containing the cable channel number.
> ...


or 4) present with a number that corresponds to neither its OTA channel number (ie 7.1), its cable channel number (ie 707), or even its cable freq/subchannel ID (ie 106-1). The cable company can populate it as any one number or two number combo they like (subject to maximum values) they like. The FCC (actually the ATSC requirements implemented as federal law by reference) only says it must be populated. It doesn't mandate that the assigned virtual channel number make any sense. In fact some TWC operations have actually changed the PSIP table from the cable channel number to a two number combo and then won't give you a channel lineup to help you figure out the channels. Had they not changed this, an S3 w/o cablecards would be able to use iys program guide data.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Saxion said:


> What area are you in?


SF Bay Area.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> ...
> You would do a digital channel scan - this could easly result in several hundred channels which might or might not have the same channel numbers as the official line up.
> ...


Actually, if they had the same channel number you wouldn't have to try to figure it out and, more to the point, your guide data would probably work without your having to do anything.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

jblake said:


> I really really doubt that adding mapping is a "trivial" addition. Are you guys software developers?
> ...
> but I know it's just not feasible and not going to happen.
> ...
> I think it's a bonus that you get to watch the free ones at all.


What evidence are you offering that it is very difficult or moderately difficult? Do you know how TiVo implements their UI and channel guide? It could be as you described or it could be as others described. Your argument (as presented in your post) that QAM mapping is non-trivial is no stronger than the argument that it is trivial.

How do you know it's just not feasible and not going to happen? TiVo came out and said S1 implementation could not deal with the Daylight Savings Time changes, but someone here showed them a different way of looking at the problem and TiVo eventually integrated a version of that into S1 software.

I don't see why it is a bonus that you receive channels you are supposed to receive by FCC mandate.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

sfhub said:


> ...
> user goes on his local HD forum at avsforum.com and gets a list of channels from someone who's done it already.
> ...


So who is this mythical person who's done it already? Yet easier would be for the cable company to be required to publish the list.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Saxion said:


> This is why the FCC requires that PSIP be carried through on cable as received from the broadcaster. The goal was to allow the QAM freq to change, but the channel would always be mapped to the same place. PSIP is the right place to manage this complexity. If PSIP is in place and used correctly (and generally it is), this is not all that hard.


I don't think the FCC requires the channel number to be mapped through, It think that portion of the ATSC spec requires them to pass on the program guide data, not the channel number.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

sfhub said:


> If the FCC required PSIP of every cable channel (including ADS) and required the mappings to match the cable lineup channels, then all this can be managed in PSIP. If not, then there is only a partial solution.


If the FCC required the PSIP table to match virtual channel number with the cable company's published channel lineup, the guide would work right out of the box and we wouldn't be having this discussion.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

kb7oeb said:


> The FCC does not require all cable companies to pass PSIP, only if over a certain size. It might be 750Mhz or 1Ghz I can't remember exactly.


That's true; it's only a requirement for plants that are 750MHz or greater...which is pretty much everybody these days.


kb7oeb said:


> I don't think PSIP can be passed as received from the broadcasters


PSIP contains a lot of stuff; the channel number is only part of it. Only parts of the PSIP data is required to be passed through, and the channel number is one of those. See http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr76.640.htm

The pertinent parts:

"For each digital transport stream that includes one or more services carried in-the-clear, such transport stream shall include virtual channel data in-band in the form of ATSC A/65B: ``ATSC Standard: Program and System Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and Cable (Revision B)'' (incorporated by reference, see Sec. 76.602), when available from the content provider."

And:

"Each channel shall be identified by a one- or two-part channel number and a textual channel name"


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## T u r b o (Feb 23, 2000)

A TiVo-interface mapping system might not be easy to manage. I can imagine it being a real pain if you have a lot of channels. There is another option, though.

Why not build it into the webserver functionality of the TiVo? A simple web page built into the tivo could manage this pretty easily.

"Advanced" users that want to access this functionality should have no problem accessing it this way.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

vstone said:


> The cable company can populate it as any one number or two number combo they like (subject to maximum values) they like. The FCC (actually the ATSC requirements implemented as federal law by reference) only says it must be populated. It doesn't mandate that the assigned virtual channel number make any sense.


That's an interesting read on the regulations; I'm not a lawyer but that sounds like something the courts and/or the FCC would want to rule on. I think it's clear what the _intent _ was of the FCC and their reasoning behind it; scrambling the data to meaningless values certainly goes against any conceiveable understanding of intent. It's amazing what lengths cable companies will go to to get around the law and frustrate any attempts to reduce their Revenue Per User.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

vstone said:


> I don't think the FCC requires the channel number to be mapped through, It think that portion of the ATSC spec requires them to pass on the program guide data, not the channel number.


Again, please look at the above link. Also, I'm sure most of you know who dt_dc is, and here is what he says about it:

"Cable plants that are 750MHz or greater are required to carry the PSIP data for all unencrypted channels if it is supplied by the broadcaster."

And one of the items they must carry is "a one- or two-part channel number and a textual channel name"

Argue with him (if you dare...)


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

sfhub said:


> What evidence are you offering that it is very difficult or moderately difficult? Do you know how TiVo implements their UI and channel guide? It could be as you described or it could be as others described. Your argument (as presented in your post) that QAM mapping is non-trivial is no stronger than the argument that it is trivial.
> 
> How do you know it's just not feasible and not going to happen? TiVo came out and said S1 implementation could not deal with the Daylight Savings Time changes, but someone here showed them a different way of looking at the problem and TiVo eventually integrated a version of that into S1 software.
> 
> I don't see why it is a bonus that you receive channels you are supposed to receive by FCC mandate.


I'm not offering any evidence that it's very difficult, and I didn't claim that it is. I'm just stating that it MAY NOT be as easy as you say. I do have experience in software development environments and it is usually more trouble than you think to add features. A QAM - mapping application would take considerable resources, and would have very very VERY marginal advantages to Tivo. It wouldn't make them any more money, as it isn't a feature they could use to gain additional subscribers, and would do nothing but cost additional money in software development, testing, deploying, and also customer service.

Also, I didn't say it was a bonus that you get the "in the clear" channels, I said it is a bonus that the Tivo is working outside of it's advertised features. It clearly states on the box that to receive digital cable programming, a cable card is *required*


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sfhub said:


> What evidence are you offering that it is very difficult or moderately difficult? Do you know how TiVo implements their UI and channel guide? It could be as you described or it could be as others described. Your argument (as presented in your post) that QAM mapping is non-trivial is no stronger than the argument that it is trivial..


 S1 DST is a bad example - in that case TiVo had no one left with any real knowledge of the S1 code base. You can blame TiVo for not having that knowledge accesible but that is a different kind of thing.

I also can not say with certainity if this is trivial or not since I am not in the meetings. However I can think of design considerations that need to be understood first and point to channel mapping as non trivial

1. The channels you receive listing is integral to season pass/wishlist scheduling and conflict resolution. This is the core feature of TiVo DVR. any change that effects it would need a full suite of regression tests run to test those changes. Considering these are HD capable and digital lineup - those regression tests would indeed be weeks worth.

2. How do you determine which channels to map? What if Joe decides to map the first ten channel numbers to his favorite channels thinking that is an easy way to surf through them. Obviously that has to be stopped.

3. assuming you limit mapping to these QAM channels, what do you do about encrypted channels? there may be hundreds of them - all those multiple premium packages and music channels and on demand channels and so forth. How do you not present those for channel mapping

4. what happens if a wrong mapping results in massive conflicts or just the wrong show recorded everywhere.  How would a CSR track that down. You can not sit in an enterprise level design meeting and say only the geeks get to use this feature on a conmsumer product. there is a reason most of the back doors were eliminated and channel mapping was taken out early on.

5. if all goes well and you get by those early concerns now you have to persist this mapping across OS releases, regression test it and deal with it in any future designs like Universal Swivel Search and the like. A trivial - just hit a key and map a channel might make these other features that much harder and that much slower versus needing a non trivial solution that is a better plug and use component for other such apps.

6. Ok, so we have channels mapped and the user is all happy and forgot long ago they did that. Then they finally get some cable cards and put them in. What do you do with all the season passes and guide data attached to those mapped channels. You have to sort them out and make them work in the new cable card world that may or may not agree with the mapping done on the back end at the TiVo. Does the customer call in to support and ask what happened to his channel(s)? Again could be tough for support to figure that one out if the customer can not recall to tell them about something they did a year ago.

DVRs are a closed, highly integrated system. TiVo has a well designed UI that hides a lot of compexity. Change to such a system is usually not trivial. Do you think Tivo does not add a Free Space Indicator because they do not like us or because something that seems trivial is actually not trivial.

Like I said, TiVo is still working on adding in already done features from the S2 line. QAM mapping, while a really nice add on would have to wait from even a technical perspective. Now add in the political perspective of dealing with cable companies/Govt. bodies on other issues of great import to TiVo and DVR functionality. They would have to weigh the impact of revealing something the cable companies would obviosuly rather not show as they would obviously rather sell digital packages.

non-trivial just seems like a buzz word that does not begin to describe the considerations for Tivo on adding this feature


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

jblake said:


> It wouldn't make them any more money, as it isn't a feature they could use to gain additional subscribers


Of course it is exactly that. I think you underestimate the number of people who only want to watch just the local HD channels. If this group of people is so insignificantly small...then why did TiVo go through the comparatively huge expense of adding 2 ATSC tuners?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Saxion said:


> It's amazing what lengths cable companies will go to to get around the law and frustrate any attempts to reduce their Revenue Per User.


<bicker>it is almost like they show up to work each day with the intent to make some money</bicker> 
and on this level I would agree, they will go to great lengths to frustrate any attempts to reduce their revenue. The execs job is to increase revenue.

The FCC needs to get some teeth and make it very clear the mapping data needs to be there and be correct. They need to make everyone play on the same field and then TiVo could feel a lot more comfortable with letting their normal code already in place map the channels with no added hassles.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> <bicker>it is almost like they show up to work each day with the intent to make some money</bicker>


Oh I've got no problem with companies trying to make as much money as possible...it's the _lengths they go to _ to which I object. Compete well and fairly. Scrambling PSIP data, in clear antagonism to the FCC's intent and the public good, goes way too far.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

Saxion said:


> Of course it is exactly that. I think you underestimate the number of people who only want to watch just the local HD channels. If this group of people is so insignificantly small...then why did TiVo go through the comparatively huge expense of adding 2 ATSC tuners?


no, I don't underestimate that number of people, which is why I'm not surprised they put the ATSC tuners in. If all you want is local OTA HD, then that's what the ATSC tuners are for. Yes, I know not everyone can pick them up OTA, but that's outside Tivo's realm of ability to deal with it.

I just think that you are trivializing what is sure to be a complicated scheme to implement on the box.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

jblake said:


> I just think that you are trivializing what is sure to be a complicated scheme to implement on the box.


No one thinks that Sony software engineers are geniuses, or more talented than TiVo's, yet Sony put this feature in their DVRs. And simple user interfaces/low support costs are just as important to Sony as to TiVo. That stands as the single strongest argument that yes, this is important enough to do, and it is doable.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Saxion said:


> No one thinks that Sony software engineers are geniuses, or more talented than TiVo's, yet Sony put this feature in their DVRs. And simple user interfaces/low support costs are just as important to Sony as to TiVo. That stands as the single strongest argument that yes, this is important enough to do, and it is doable.


How much did those Sony DVR's cost again?
How many are in use?
Does the mapping work as intended on the Sony DVRs?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jblake said:


> I really really doubt that adding mapping is a "trivial" addition. Are you guys software developers? Do you not realize that even small changes such as reordering a menu requires weeks of testing to make sure it doesn't break other things? Do you even know how Tivo works under the hood? Just because you *really* *really* want it doesn't make it a trivial addition. I would LOVE to have QAM mapping, but I know it's just not feasible and not going to happen. The bottom line is the Tivo HD box specifically says you have to have cable cards to get digital cable channels. I think it's a bonus that you get to watch the free ones at all.


Yes, I am a software developer, and yes I can tell you that it is possible to do this within a reasonable timeframe, and have it fully tested.

Regardless of how easy or difficult the modification is, I believe it is a feature that many people will demand. The S3 was a 'premium' device, and you can expect people to go through the hassle of cablecards and paying the cableco additional money.

The Tivo HD is not a premium product. It's price point is set fairly low in comparison to the S3. Consumers are going to expect it to work with their basic cable service. If you buy a HDTV and plug it in, it gets the HD channels that are mandated by the FCC to be present. If you buy a Tivo HD and plug it in, then it should do the same [without a reduced feature set on those channels]


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

sfhub said:


> How do you know it's just not feasible and not going to happen? TiVo came out and said S1 implementation could not deal with the Daylight Savings Time changes, but someone here showed them a different way of looking at the problem and TiVo eventually integrated a version of that into S1 software.


Furthermore, if Tivo hadn't lcoked down the S2/S3/HD to make it 'unhackable', then I can almost guarantee that someone would have already written the code to implement the trivial QAM channel mapping, and the problem would be solved by now.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I also can not say with certainity if this is trivial or not since I am not in the meetings. However I can think of design considerations that need to be understood first and point to channel mapping as non trivial


I think you're making this far more difficult than it really is. All that is needed is a way to associate guide data with a channel number.

The Tivo can already tune the HD channels. It just doesn't have guide data for them. Let me specify

QAM(16.1) = GUIDE(OTA(16.1)) 
or 
QAM(16.1) = GUIDE(CABLE(6))

and it's done. Let the user sort out the issues dealing with having two NBC networks, as they (I'm assuming) already do when they get cable NBC and OTA NBC. The season pass logic must already be able to deal with this.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> S1 DST is a bad example - in that case TiVo had no one left with any real knowledge of the S1 code base. You can blame TiVo for not having that knowledge accesible but that is a different kind of thing.
> 
> I also can not say with certainity if this is trivial or not since I am not in the meetings.


Again, how do you know TiVo had no one left with any real knowledge. How do you know they don't have contracts with people that have left. I didn't blame TiVo, I simply stated what happened.

That is my whole point, not that it is or isn't trivial, but if one wants to state their position of trivial or not trivial is a stronger position than somebody else's, they should come up with something concrete, otherwise both positions are equally plausible.

However if you'd like to discuss your conjecture..



> However I can think of design considerations that need to be understood first and point to channel mapping as non trivial
> 
> 1. The channels you receive listing is integral to season pass/wishlist scheduling and conflict resolution. This is the core feature of TiVo DVR. any change that effects it would need a full suite of regression tests run to test those changes. Considering these are HD capable and digital lineup - those regression tests would indeed be weeks worth.


I could counter by saying that the functionality of mapping new channels already exists in TiVo software because it needs to handle a channel (re)map retrieved from the CableCARD. If you simulate the manual (automatic) channel remap by generating a CableCARD like channel map, you reuse the code and don't need to go through full regression. Whether this is possible or not depends on how it is actually implemented. It's possible this could work and it is possible it wouldn't but it does offer an alternative view to what you are suggesting.



> 2. How do you determine which channels to map? What if Joe decides to map the first ten channel numbers to his favorite channels thinking that is an easy way to surf through them. Obviously that has to be stopped.


As discussed earlier this doesn't need to be a feature exposed to everyone. Simply expose it via an SPS code and don't support it through customer service. Assume if someone wants to enable this, they know what they are doing.



> 3. assuming you limit mapping to these QAM channels, what do you do about encrypted channels? there may be hundreds of them - all those multiple premium packages and music channels and on demand channels and so forth. How do you not present those for channel mapping


As discussed earlier, you don't need to do any scanning.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5380988&&#post5380988

You don't need to design this for the masses. They will be using CableCARDs.



> 4. what happens if a wrong mapping results in massive conflicts or just the wrong show recorded everywhere. How would a CSR track that down. You can not sit in an enterprise level design meeting and say only the geeks get to use this feature on a conmsumer product. there is a reason most of the back doors were eliminated and channel mapping was taken out early on.


Umm, they would point the user to the existing schedule log that tells you why something didn't record, just like they do today. You are saying channel mapping was already there and was taken out? Where can I read about this?

The people who want this feature generally know what they are doing. The people who don't know simply go with CableCARDs. Such people probably do exist, but I've never personally heard a neophyte TiVo user clamoring for a QAM mapping feature, they simply get a CableCARD and get on with life. It is those advanced users who can't stand paying for CableCARDs just to get channel mapping that are wanting this feature.


> 5. if all goes well and you get by those early concerns now you have to persist this mapping across OS releases, regression test it and deal with it in any future designs like Universal Swivel Search and the like. A trivial - just hit a key and map a channel might make these other features that much harder and that much slower versus needing a non trivial solution that is a better plug and use component for other such apps.


As I mentioned earlier, you already need to handle all this for CableCARD provided channel remaps.



> 6. Ok, so we have channels mapped and the user is all happy and forgot long ago they did that. Then they finally get some cable cards and put them in. What do you do with all the season passes and guide data attached to those mapped channels. You have to sort them out and make them work in the new cable card world that may or may not agree with the mapping done on the back end at the TiVo. Does the customer call in to support and ask what happened to his channel(s)? Again could be tough for support to figure that one out if the customer can not recall to tell them about something they did a year ago.


As far as I can tell, TiVo doesn't do scheduling based on channel #s. It does it based on channel identifiers. Thus there is code already in TiVo to migrate your recordings from one guide representation to another. Adding a CableCARD would work the same way as before, match the channel identifiers and migrate.



> DVRs are a closed, highly integrated system. TiVo has a well designed UI that hides a lot of compexity. Change to such a system is usually not trivial. Do you think Tivo does not add a Free Space Indicator because they do not like us or because something that seems trivial is actually not trivial.


I won't conjecture why they don't add such a feature.



> Like I said, TiVo is still working on adding in already done features from the S2 line. QAM mapping, while a really nice add on would have to wait from even a technical perspective. Now add in the political perspective of dealing with cable companies/Govt. bodies on other issues of great import to TiVo and DVR functionality. They would have to weigh the impact of revealing something the cable companies would obviosuly rather not show as they would obviously rather sell digital packages.


Personally I'd have no problems with the argument that there are more important features sitting ahead of QAM mapping on the priority queue. Others might disagree but an argument can be made for both.

I think you are getting a little stretchy associating QAM channel mapping with political exposure of cable company preferences for sales.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

smbaker said:


> Yes, I am a software developer, and yes I can tell you that it is possible to do this within a reasonable timeframe, and have it fully tested.
> ...


As a software developer myself who has inherited code on more than one occasion, I'm amazed that you can make such a statement without reviewing the code. And that assumes the code isn't horribly mangled by (many reasons).


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Saxion said:


> Again, please look at the above link. Also, I'm sure most of you know who dt_dc is, and here is what he says about it:
> 
> "Cable plants that are 750MHz or greater are required to carry the PSIP data for all unencrypted channels if it is supplied by the broadcaster."
> 
> ...


I've seen posts from dt_dc, but I don't know who he is.

I went back at looked at the CFR and I have to agree with what he says, although it is discussed under a section about PODs (cablecards). I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see a way to wangle out of that. It appears to me they would have to pass on the (for example) 7.1 channel ID and could _NOT_ assign the number 705 which would correspond to published channel lineup. If this is true, then Tivo should provide automatic mapping. A few months ago somebody reported that their cable lineup showed the OTA 2 part numbers. Did the Tivo handle that correctly? In those cases where the S3 is connected to both cable and antenna, what would the S3 decide to do when recording from channel 7.1?

Maybe its time to wander down to the local Comcast office for another round of "Baffle 'em with my sparse knowledge."


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

smbaker said:


> I think you're making this far more difficult than it really is. All that is needed is a way to associate guide data with a channel number.
> 
> The Tivo can already tune the HD channels. It just doesn't have guide data for them. Let me specify
> 
> ...


Please reference my previous post.

I think that designing an interface for folks to sort OTA channel 7.1 CBS from clear QAM cable channel 7.1 CBS might be a non-trivial task since some folks never learned how to set the clock on their VCR's. Of course, these folks never recorded anything.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

smbaker said:


> Furthermore, if Tivo hadn't lcoked down the S2/S3/HD to make it 'unhackable', then I can almost guarantee that someone would have already written the code to implement the trivial QAM channel mapping, and the problem would be solved by now.


Herein lies the difference in the two outlooks I think.

Yes a hack could be coded and tested to do this in a reasonable amount of time. The hack would not be supported by anyone officially and no concerns as to how this effects the rest of the system would be analyzed in an enterprise way and certainly no thought would be given to the unknown of what strategic direction would dictate in terms of new features and future OS updates.

The Hack would most likely work, most likely not have a negative impact on the rest of the DVR and of course the hacker would take pride and incorporate any changes that made sense of fix something wrong that was brought to his attention. Heck the hack could even involve creating a text file with the mappings needed since a certain knowledge level is assumed of someone involved in hacking their own TiVo. Everyone would be patient about working through anything since the hacker was providing his services gratis for the love of his hobby/pride in hacking TiVo. All well and good.

TiVo has none of those luxuries since anything they provide is part of the paid subscription/hardware costs and has to account for all of what I included in my other post and deliver something rock solid or else send a fix quickly for anything found. Much like they are going through right now with the TiVo HD. They can not just whip out code changes but need to do things as part of a formalized release path. And that path goes across multiple code branches with these new hardware introductions by TiVo.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

smbaker said:


> I think you're making this far more difficult than it really is. All that is needed is a way to associate guide data with a channel number.
> 
> The Tivo can already tune the HD channels. It just doesn't have guide data for them. Let me specify
> 
> ...


Do you even know how Tivo works internally? I don't, and I'm sure you don't, so how do you know that it is as easy as writing QAM(XX.XX) = Lineup(3432)

You don't. You *hope* it is trivial, but you don't really know if it is or not, and it would likely take a Tivo developer several weeks to write this in, test it, have others test it, push it out to their beta testers, and then commit it to the next release. The developer does not work for free. Plus, other developers have to be let in on the changes, change any code they may be working on, it has to be documented, etc. That's a lot of resources to dedicated to a feature that is not going to make them one penny. There can't be more than maybe 10 people in the entire world who aren't buying a Tivo HD who would buy it if they added this one feature. There are many more widely requested features that are easier to implement and would generate more sales that haven't been implemented that would be a better use of a developer's time.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

vstone said:


> So who is this mythical person who's done it already? Yet easier would be for the cable company to be required to publish the list.


I have for my system, moyeki has for his system. There are many others. Read the avs forums for specific areas. There are other markets that are affected by this problem, PC-based recording, QAM-only tuners with no CableCARD. People know where the channels are, but there is no organized clearinghouse for this information.

Sure it would be easier if the cable company was required to publish the list, but good luck going that path. I'm suggesting you get it from someone else, because I know it can be done. If you can substitute an alternate method for getting the list, no problem, the rest of the steps continue to work.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

vstone said:


> If the FCC required the PSIP table to match virtual channel number with the cable company's published channel lineup, the guide would work right out of the box and we wouldn't be having this discussion.


I was responding to Saxion saying PSIP is the right place to manage this by pointing out that currently PSIP is only being populated for broadcast channels resent on cable lines for many cable systems (some do populate PSIP channel info for more channels but it is rare)

The point was even if you managed everything with PSIP (which a reasonable way to do this), if it doesn't apply to the full channel range, you've only got a partial solution.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

vstone said:


> Please reference my previous post.
> 
> I think that designing an interface for folks to sort OTA channel 7.1 CBS from clear QAM cable channel 7.1 CBS might be a non-trivial task since some folks never learned how to set the clock on their VCR's. Of course, these folks never recorded anything.


That situation is not new, they already have to handle this because one can get 7.1 over OTA and 7.1 over cable today.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sfhub said:


> As discussed earlier this doesn't need to be a feature exposed to everyone. Simply expose it via an SPS code and don't support it through customer service. Assume if someone wants to enable this, they know what they are doing.


would you seriously sit in a business meeting and propose the company should spend money and resource time on a feature you would hide from normal view and not advertise because it will help sell more boxes?

Would you further say we can bypass all the normal Standard Software Procedures because we can make it a trivial change since only smart people will use it?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

sfhub said:


> I have for my system, moyeki has for his system. There are many others. Read the avs forums for specific areas. There are other markets that are affected by this problem, PC-based recording, QAM-only tuners with no CableCARD. People know where the channels are, but there is no organized clearinghouse for this information.
> 
> Sure it would be easier if the cable company was required to publish the list, but good luck going that path. I'm suggesting you get it from someone else, because I know it can be done. If you can substitute an alternate method for getting the list, no problem, the rest of the steps continue to work.


 Yes, it's really not that hard to do to build the mapping table even if nobody else is around to give you the info. Remember that the only ones that need to be mapped out are the unencrypted ones (since the point is not to have to use cablecards) which are usually the local network channels only, which is a very small subset of the overall channel set.

This whole topic of QAM channel mapping with Tivo has been hacked to death - there is nothing new in this thread that I could pick out. I used to hold some hope that Tivo may actually accommodate this at some point in time but have long since given up on it. At this point the best hope for something to get done in this regard is for hacking community to get on it. This thread is an example of one approach to the problem:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=354008


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

sfhub said:


> I was responding to Saxion saying PSIP is the right place to manage this by pointing out that currently PSIP is only being populated for broadcast channels resent on cable lines for many cable systems (some do populate PSIP channel info for more channels but it is rare)
> 
> The point was even if you managed everything with PSIP (which a reasonable way to do this), if it doesn't apply to the full channel range, you've only got a partial solution.


I agree. I was addressing only resent OTA, but the issue applies to (as you say), say, Discovery HD, which, in some systems, was being sent in band and unencrypted, but may be disappearing from some TWC systems (ex: TWC-SC). Maybe dt_dc or Saxion can shed some light in this area. (Maybe they have. Time to go reread the entire thread, I guess)

I would say that PSIP is mostly being populated, but not necessarily with any useful data. It's possible that the cable companies would purposely violate federal law by not populating it, but it seems more likely that they would just throw in numbers that don't correspond to their channel listing and leave it at that.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

vstone said:


> As a software developer myself who has inherited code on more than one occasion, I'm amazed that you can make such a statement without reviewing the code. And that assumes the code isn't horribly mangled by (many reasons).


Back in the S1 days when the platform was open and "hackable", many people worked on it and extended the device in numerous ways. All sorts of innovative features were added, without documentation or support from Tivo. The codebase was in reasonable condition then; I'm assuming it is now.

Sure, sometimes you can get stuck with crappy code. I've inherited plenty of it myself. Often there's a learning curve involved, but there is very little that cannot be picked up. And we're not talking about inheriting someone else's crappy code -- we're talking about Tivo working on their own code.

Of course, software is 90% testing/bugfixing and 10% actual work, but I still don't think this feature is that bloody difficult to implement.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jblake said:


> Do you even know how Tivo works internally? I don't, and I'm sure you don't, so how do you know that it is as easy as writing QAM(XX.XX) = Lineup(3432)that haven't been implemented that would be a better use of a developer's time.


I haven't followed the internals of the Tivo since the S1, and even back then I didn't look at it that closely. However, the particular data structure must exist: there must be a list of channel numbers, and there must be a link between each entry in the channel list to the appropriate guide data. Of course I can't say what the particular data structures look like, but from outside examination of the device you can infer that they exist.

Could I be wrong? Of course I could.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> would you seriously sit in a business meeting and propose the company should spend money and resource time on a feature you would hide from normal view and not advertise because it will help sell more boxes?


I would never propose that the feature be 'hidden', but if I was sitting at the meeting that designed S3 and the HD then I would have made my voice heard that the S3/HD fully support receiving network HD programming over non-cablecard service. It broadens the market considerably, which increases the marketability of the device.

We're only talking about four channels here. Most of us in this forum could input that data quicker than we would spend on hold trying to schedule a truck roll from the cable co for a cablecard install.

In my case, where the PSIP data contains the channel number of the OTA station, it could even be done automatically. If what the other posters in this thread are saying is correct about the cable co being required to pass the PSIP data from the local networks, then I'll bet this will evolve to be the norm.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

smbaker said:


> In my case, where the PSIP data contains the channel number of the OTA station, it could even be done automatically. If what the other posters in this thread are saying is correct about the cable co being required to pass the PSIP data from the local networks, then I'll bet this will evolve to be the norm.


to be clear - I can see this becoming a feature in 2008 assuming that it does evolve to be done according to the standard and FCC rules. At that point TiVo could map it using in place code and feel comfortable it will work solidily save for the few deviations in the wild that would have to reported and fixed, much like macrovision flag flare ups of today. I think our local TWC cable company has 6 such channels currently, though no idea if thePSIP is right for them.

The hacking apprach thread dying off does not bode well for a trivial code to do this though.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

Tivo may have thought about this and worked out the numbers and came to a compromise..if you want local HD channels without a cable card, use OTA...simple enough.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Update - I got my S3 today, installed it and did a channel scan. My broadcast networks are all there (16-1, 34-1, 9-1, 13-1) and the channel numbers displayed are, as I suspected, the same as the OTA channel numbers. The tivo tunes and records, but as expected, does not have program data. 

The 'channel list' in setup lists all of the HD channels that it found, and is the natural place for the 'manual QAM mapping' feature that we're talking about. Heck, the format is exactly what we're looking for (channel, guide-name). From a UI perspective, it would be a simple and intuitive place for a manual mapping feature to exist. 

I have to ask this question, and it's a somewhat foolish question as I'm sure the answer is 'no', but has anyone tried splitting their cable into the antenna port and telling their Tivo that it has an antenna? In my case the QAM channel numbers match the ATSC channel numbers, so the guide data would be correct. I'm assuming this will not work for the obvious reason that the Tivo will be expecting ATSC (not QAM) on the antenna port. But hey, if you don't at least ask, then you never know...

Finally, one 'bug' to report. The Tivo seems to be unable to tune six-digit channels, for example 104-303 (which happens to be digital discovery for me). I don't give a hoot about these upper channel numbers (most are VOD/PPV movies), but it's interesting to note that I was unable to enter the channel number.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

smbaker said:


> I have to ask this question, and it's a somewhat foolish question as I'm sure the answer is 'no', but has anyone tried splitting their cable into the antenna port and telling their Tivo that it has an antenna? In my case the QAM channel numbers match the ATSC channel numbers, so the guide data would be correct. I'm assuming this will not work for the obvious reason that the Tivo will be expecting ATSC (not QAM) on the antenna port. But hey, if you don't at least ask, then you never know...


 Cable uses QAM modulation for digital channels, ATSC used 8VSB, so they are not compatible. Not to mention the fact that the respective carrier frequencies are most likely different frequencies anyway. There is very little chance the ATSC & cable designated carrier frequencies match up so it would be pointless even if the modulation scheme was the same for both. For Analog channels using NTSC the VHF channels 1-13 do matchup between OTA & cable which is maybe what you were thinking of.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jblake said:


> Tivo may have thought about this and worked out the numbers and came to a compromise..if you want local HD channels without a cable card, use OTA...simple enough.


It's not the simple for a lot of people who don't live in an area where they can get OTA HD channels.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

moyekj said:


> Cable uses QAM modulation for digital channels, ATSC used 8VSB, so they are not compatible. Not to mention the fact that the respective carrier frequencies are most likely different frequencies anyway. There is very little chance the ATSC & cable designated carrier frequencies match up so it would be pointless even if the modulation scheme was the same for both. For Analog channels using NTSC the VHF channels 1-13 do matchup between OTA & cable which is maybe what you were thinking of.


When I said 'channel number', I was referring to the number that Tivo displays for the channel. Perhaps a better name for this would be 'logical channel number' to distinguish what I'm talking about from the carrier frequency? I'm not familiar with the QAM/PSIP specifications, but I think in the cable case I'm talking about the channel number that is in the PSIP header for the QAM channel.

So, at the 'logical' level, the channel numbers do match up. I have a QAM channel that Tivo thinks is 16.1 (that's what Tivo displays on-screen), which is the same (logical) channel number that the OTA channel would be at. I suspect my plan doesn't work because the tuner that is wired to the antenna port is probably ATSC-only, and Tivo would never find a QAM channel that is attached to it.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

rainwater said:


> It's not the simple for a lot of people who don't live in an area where they can get OTA HD channels.


And it's kind of silly considering that the programming is there on the cable, in the clear, and mandated by the FCC to be present.

It'd be like telling people that it's too much work to supply the analog guide data for their local networks on cable, so stick an antenna on your roof and get your analog local networks from the antenna. We don't tolerate this for analog cable; we shouldn't tolerate it for digital. [yes, I know it's mainly the cableco's fault, not Tivo's]


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

Well we're just going in circles now and nothing is getting accomplished. Not everyone can get OTA HD, not everyone can get broadband internet, the world isn't perfect. The Tivo is what it is, they specifically advertise to get digital cable channels you must have a cable card, so I don't see where the argument is. Everyone can't have everything all the time. If you live outside an area that has OTA HD reception, get a cable card or don't get HD. That's how it works, that's the deal.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> would you seriously sit in a business meeting and propose the company should spend money and resource time on a feature you would hide from normal view and not advertise because it will help sell more boxes?


You should ask for the meeting notes where they decided to remove 30-second skip SPS (feature hidden from normal view) then decided to add it back because it would sell more boxes.

I don't see that they are advertising 30-second skip in the TiVo marketing literature. Do you?

Look if you want to say you feel something else is higher priority than this I don't have a problem with that. It seems you are stretching further and further to come up with reasons why not to do QAM mapping and skipping the strongest arguments against implementing it.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

smbaker said:


> So, at the 'logical' level, the channel numbers do match up. I have a QAM channel that Tivo thinks is 16.1 (that's what Tivo displays on-screen), which is the same (logical) channel number that the OTA channel would be at. *I suspect my plan doesn't work because the tuner that is wired to the antenna port is probably ATSC-only, and Tivo would never find a QAM channel that is attached to it.*


That is what moyekj said in his reply to you.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sfhub said:


> You should ask for the meeting notes where they decided to remove 30-second skip SPS (feature hidden from normal view) then decided to add it back because it would sell more boxes.
> 
> I don't see that they are advertising 30-second skip in the TiVo marketing literature. Do you?
> 
> Look if you want to say you feel something else is higher priority than this I don't have a problem with that. It seems you are stretching further and further to come up with reasons why not to do QAM mapping and skipping the strongest arguments against implementing it.


30 sec skip is easy for support reps to deal with. It is a back door and not official becasue of those business politics I spoke of earlier. That way they are not a commercial skipper and could take it out if they had too. I am sure more people will use the 30 sec skip and thus find more value in TiVo though than buy a box if it had QAM mapping.

Again I would find the feature useful as well, but I will just get cable cards anyhow when I get a tivoHD and hook up my OTA antenna so it is no deal breaker for me


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## clark_kent (May 6, 2007)

All you guys complaining that mapping is "too hard," or "too complicated," or "it's only for geeks" are defending TiVo where TiVo deserve NO defense and TiVo should not be getting a "PASS" for missing functionality.

I like TiVo and I have been a TiVo fan since the original S1 came out. They make an excellent product and the user interface is by far the best around. BUT, that does not excuse TiVo from providing basic (trivial) functionality that can be found in many other "lesser" devices. TiVo is a sophisticated product and should not fall short on simple functionality.

Let me start with something that IS "very" trivial, but, never the less, lacking in TiVo: how about channel "labeling" (channel captions)? Who in this forum thinks that this would be an "advanced" function? Would everyone use his function? NO. Would some people use it? YES. Do HDTV sets let you do this? YES. Do simple "minded" VCR recorders allow you to add channel labels/captions? YES. Can we do it on our $800 "best-of-the-best" DVR? NO! In fact, many many devices give you the ability to add your own channel labels even though not everyone does it. Why? Well, for one thing, it's friendly!

TiVo's position that a cableCard is "required" for digital channels: HDTV's can tune digital (QAM) channels and I have yet to see one HDTV manufacturer claim that you "must" have a cableCard to receive digital (clearQAM) channels. Samsung sells a digital (QAM) STB tuner. It does not require you to have a cableCard in order to tune QAM channels. I just picked up a Panasonic DMR-EZ475V (a DVD recorder w/QAM tuner). It's got "ACCUTUNE(tm) Digital Tuner" boldly proclaiming it's "digital" prowess. Nowhere, does it say that a cableCard is "required" for digital channel reception! In fact, it doesn't even have a cableCard slot. Yet, it manages to tune clearQAM channels just fine. Not only that, but I can even add my own channel labels, or chose from a list of channel labels from it's table! So, why is TiVo telling customers that they "need" a cableCard when in fact that statement is not only misleading and false but also, completely inaccurate.

"Mapping:" I must concur with those that think that this basic feature," no, make that basic functionality, is very(!) sorely lacking! But, lets take one step back from the program guide being absent, I can't even "label" my clearQAM channels so that at least I can tell what the heck channel I want to select from my favorite "friendly" channel list! Giving us the ability to label channels IS trivial! And, I would be willing to bet that TiVo has some form of a EPG channel "table" already somewhere in it's innards, so, letting us geeks "map" (or equate) a QAM channel number with a EPG designations IS trivial! If something as simple minded as a DVD recorder can allow ordinary customers to map complicated QAM channel numbers to a channel name or allow for independent channel labeling, why cant we do that with our uber-sophisticated ($800) S3? Who in this forum thinks that Panasonic intended (or is targeting) its QAM capable, channel mapping/labeling capable DVD recorder for geeks?

And, speaking of QAM channels: I have no doubt that QAM tuners are not all created equal. Some work better then others and it will take several generations before they all become proficient and equally capable. BUT, when a stupidly cheep QAM tuner can correctly identify a given QAM frequency and present the correct QAM channel for that frequency and my $800 S3 gives me goose eggs (0) for channel number for that same QAM frequency, that, is inexcusable! Theres a lot of chatter about the PSIP being this or that (and perhaps) not being correct, and thats is the problem, not the TiVo. But, Ive had 6 different QAM capable devices on the same identical cable source and not one of them has given me any 0 QAM channel numbers. How in the world are all those QAM tuners able correctly identify a given QAM frequency/channel and the $800 S3 lays a bunch of eggs???


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

Don't argue with Clark, I just saw him go into a phone booth to change.


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## Koan (Jan 8, 2002)

jblake said:


> There can't be more than maybe 10 people in the entire world who aren't buying a Tivo HD who would buy it if they added this one feature.


Many more than that, I'm sure. Potentially, the customer base includes everyone who subscribes to basic cable and has/buys an HDTV. When faced with having to pay an additional $40 or more per month for digital service, they will likely not buy the Tivo HD or return it when they find it doesn't work. Most subscribe to basic cable because OTA isn't an option.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Uh, Clark, the PSIP data that we're talking about also includes a "textual channel name." This is true of both OTA and cable variants of the PSIP tables. That name could presumably be picked up from the PSIP tables, if there. However since the channel lineup that Tivo, Inc keeps updated on your Tivo ALREADY HAS A TEXT NAME FOR EVERY CHANNEL, there is no need to spend time adding the capability for you to rename WFMY as CBS-NC or whatever suits your fancy. Assuming you forgot that the text name is there on the channel list, why not put down your keyboard right now, go over to your TV set and push the info button on your peanut. Why, there it is, a name asigned to the channel. Your less advanced devices have a naming capability ONLY because there is no requirement (that I am aware of anyway) to put channel naming in the vertival blanking interval (VBI) of analog channels. If your less advanced devices licensed some technology from TV Guide (or whoever own them now) the device could retrieve some data from the PBS channel VBI to ID every channel, except that I'm not sure that cable is required to pass this along. 

JVC used to make VCRs that could automatically set the time using info passed along in the VBI of Discovery or some such channel. Some TWC systems objected to passing along data without being paid for it so they blocked it. My local system didn't block, but it usually set the time in the wrong time zone.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

clark_kent said:


> BUT, when a stupidly cheep QAM tuner can correctly identify a given QAM frequency and present the correct QAM channel for that frequency and my $800 S3 gives me goose eggs (0) for channel number for that same QAM frequency, that, is inexcusable!


Have you tried this again recently? I did a 'channel scan' with my Tivo HD and it did supply the correct channel numbers for all the in-the-clear QAM channels. I didn't get any "0" channels out of it. Of course, they all had no guide data, but it did at least get the channel numbers correct.

Yesterday, I gave in and reconfigured the Tivo for antenna+cable. I grabbed a chunk of leftover RG-6 and a 12" piece of solid wire from the junk bin, hooked my contraption up to the antenna port, and I can now receive HDTV channels with guide data OTA at about 80% signal strength on all local networks. Maybe I'll drop by walmart and upgrade this to a full-fledged "rabbit ears".

It still seems exceptionally silly to me to pay $50/mo for cable, $1500 for an HDTV flatscreen, and $260 for a Tivo HD, only to be required to receive my channels via a $3 pair of rabbit ears.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

clark_kent said:


> ...
> And, speaking of QAM channels: I have no doubt that QAM tuners are not all created equal. Some work better then others and it will take several generations before they all become proficient and equally capable. BUT, when a stupidly cheep QAM tuner can correctly identify a given QAM frequency and present the correct QAM channel for that frequency and my $800 S3 gives me goose eggs (0) for channel number for that same QAM frequency, that, is inexcusable! Theres a lot of chatter about the PSIP being this or that (and perhaps) not being correct, and thats is the problem, not the TiVo. But, Ive had 6 different QAM capable devices on the same identical cable source and not one of them has given me any 0 QAM channel numbers. How in the world are all those QAM tuners able correctly identify a given QAM frequency/channel and the $800 S3 lays a bunch of eggs???


I would hypothesize that the TV sets, failing to find a proper channel number in the PSIP table uses the actual frequency-subchannel as a backup and that the Tivo doesn't do this. If true, someone smarter than I may be able to determine if the issue is in hardware or software. If the issue is in hardware, it's probably better from a marketing standpoint for Tivo, Inc to say "You must use cablecards." than to say "We have a bad chip, but if you get the cable company to fix the PSIP table, it will go away." People who get the cable company to fix the PSIP table are usually assigned to the "World Task Force for Solving Unsolvable Problems Like World Peace."

I asked the question in one the Tivo HD threads if somebody with a THD had seen the goose egg issue. I don't recall anybody saying they had. Perhaps they fixed it for the THD.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

vstone said:


> However since the channel lineup that Tivo, Inc keeps updated on your Tivo ALREADY HAS A TEXT NAME FOR EVERY CHANNEL, there is no need to spend time adding the capability for you to rename WFMY as CBS-NC or whatever suits your fancy.


I think he is only suggesting the channel labeling (as a simpler alternative to QAM mapping) because he isn't using CableCARDs and thus his channels aren't mapped, making the TiVo text names useless.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

vstone said:


> I would hypothesize that the TV sets, failing to find a proper channel number in the PSIP table uses the actual frequency-subchannel as a backup and that the Tivo doesn't do this.


All my channels (on my S3) that are missing PSIP display at their actual RF channel #s (as you would expect)

There is something else going on in Clark's case.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Koan said:


> Many more than that, I'm sure. Potentially, the customer base includes everyone who subscribes to basic cable and has/buys an HDTV. When faced with having to pay an additional $40 or more per month for digital service, they will likely not buy the Tivo HD or return it when they find it doesn't work. Most subscribe to basic cable because OTA isn't an option.


I'm also of the opinion that the market is huge for this feature. Like I said before, the S3 price point made it a 'premium' piece of equipment that was marketed toward the kind of people with 'premium' cable packages.

The HD price point is not aimed at that level. It's aimed at your average guy who has purchased a HDTV flat panel (which are quite affordable nowadays) and wants things to "just work" with his basic cable service. If I was Tivo, then I'd have found a way to automatically configure the four basic networks, even if I had to pay the major cable providers for the information, or had to pay a third party for the data.

Finally, I would have at least implemented the base case where the PSIP contains the channel numbers from the OTA stations, and make sure that automatically works. This is just silly that my Tivo gets channel 16-1 from cable, knows it is 16-1, but is too stupid to know that it is the same 16-1 that it gets OTA.

I'll bet Tivo has this capability within the year. I'd love to know the number of customer service calls from people upset that their fancy new "HD" Tivo has no guide data for "HD" channels.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

sfhub said:


> All my channels (on my S3) that are missing PSIP display at their actual RF channel #s (as you would expect)
> 
> There is something else going on in Clark's case.


Mine also showed goose eggs before the cablecards were installed.

I'm sure that there's a simple answer to this, but how do you know that the PSIP table isn't populated with the actual RF #'s or even with a number picked out of a hat ( as TWC seems to have done. I tested TWC in Myrtle Beach with a Westinghouse TV with really crappy software and the current Samsung STB. The results were inconclusive, but I think the Samsung would find a channel (by using the upchannel button) like 91-9001, tune to it, and then display 91-1. It would not find the channel by entering 91-1 and wouldn't allow me to enter 91-9001. I never could really figure out what they were doing.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

clark_kent said:


> All you guys complaining that mapping is "too hard," or "too complicated," or "it's only for geeks" are defending TiVo where TiVo deserve NO defense and TiVo should not be getting a "PASS" for missing functionality.


Saying QAM channel mapping is a missing feature is like saying a tivo not having a toaster is a missing feature. Tivo specifically and explicitly states that to get ANY digital cable channels you MUST have a cable card. It's right there on the box. At NO point did they ever advertise that you could get the QAM channels and that all the functionality would be there. I would love for my Tivo to have a lot of features it doesn't have, but they weren't advertised to me and while I'll make suggestions to Tivo and post in the suggestions forum, I won't argue that Tivo is screwing me somehow because they won't add them.

Has it ever occurred to you that Tivo's developers may be working on other things that they can actually advertise and use as a selling point instead of a feature that will bring them zero additional revenue and very very VERY few additional sales?

And I will keep repeating this, no one on this forum, aside from maybe the 2 or 3 Tivo employees, actually knows how hard or easy it would be to implement this. If Tivo follows good development practices (and considering how good and stable, overall, their software is, I would say they do) adding this would require 2 or 3 months of testing alone to make sure it doesn't break anything else on the box.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

sfhub said:


> I think he is only suggesting the channel labeling (as a simpler alternative to QAM mapping) because he isn't using CableCARDs and thus his channels aren't mapped, making the TiVo text names useless.


I don't see how that would fix the missing program guide data problem. He appears to be saying that there should be room in the table for this and Tivo should allow it. Tivo could certainly add another field to the table and allow the user to enter a name, but that would do him little good until the table adds a level of redirection or, as somebody else implied, added a different direction of the existing redirection scheme (not sure if that's clear).

I never thought much about the particulars, but I assume that its possible that modifying the existing redirection scheme may be the reason nobody at Tivo wants to talk about this. If the redirection scheme uses the cablecard to map channels to their frequency, the absense of a cablecard obviously breaks this. Perhaps they were so centered on a cablecard box that they didn't think folks would really want to use it without a cablecard and ended up with a system very hard to modify.

Long ago I was in some CompSci class. We were loooking at some machine language code that just seeme to juggle data around between registers and memory, with everything ending up where it started. It made no sense by itself, but if you at code immediately preceding it and following it, it made perfect sense (sorry I don't remember the particulars). Perhaps the much discussed mapping appears easy, but would cause cascading errors throughout the code.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jblake said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that Tivo's developers may be working on other things that they can actually advertise and use as a selling point instead of a feature that will bring them zero additional revenue and very very VERY few additional sales?


1) As numerous people have pointed out, there is a large base of customers who have basic (or standard) cable service who do not have cablecards. If Tivo can implement a solution then the product would be marketable to those users.

2) Also, look at all the trouble associated with cablecards not working, installers not showing up, installers not knowing how to install cablecards, cablecards failing after install, etc. This forum is filled with stories about these problems. Can't you see that a Tivo that could be fully self-installed, without requiring the cableco to roll a truck is more marketable than a Tivo that cannot?

3) Finally, a Tvio that requires third party hardware (the cablecard) to function is going to present more problems and customer support issues than a Tivo that is fully self contained, because Tivo controls the Tivo hardware but not the cablecard hardware. Tivo has no quality control over the cablecards; they have no idea what crappy hardware the cable installer is going to show up with.

There you go, three reasons why a Tivo that does not require a cablecard is more marketable than one that does.

Many users (including myself) have local networks that include the correct OTA channel number in the PSIP data, and this data is passed through by the cableco. One can expect this to be a continuing trend for those networks that aren't already doing it. For this growing body of users, the confguration of HD clear QAM networks could be nearly automatic.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

If you have basic analog cable, then you don't need an HD Tivo. If you need your Tivo to receive digital channels, THAT IS WHY CABLELABS, TIVO, AND THE REST OF THE CONSUMER ELECTRONICS INDUSTRY HAS CREATED CABLECARDS. A complicated channel mapping scheme that will flip flop month to month is not a better solution that having the cable company come out and install the cable cards.

Also, you cannot blame cable card troubles on Tivo. You are projecting the cable companies' issues on Tivo unfairly here.


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## Koan (Jan 8, 2002)

jblake said:


> Saying QAM channel mapping is a missing feature is like saying a tivo not having a toaster is a missing feature. Tivo specifically and explicitly states that to get ANY digital cable channels you MUST have a cable card. It's right there on the box. At NO point did they ever advertise that you could get the QAM channels and that all the functionality would be there. I would love for my Tivo to have a lot of features it doesn't have, but they weren't advertised to me and while I'll make suggestions to Tivo and post in the suggestions forum, I won't argue that Tivo is screwing me somehow because they won't add them.
> 
> Has it ever occurred to you that Tivo's developers may be working on other things that they can actually advertise and use as a selling point instead of a feature that will bring them zero additional revenue and very very VERY few additional sales?
> 
> And I will keep repeating this, no one on this forum, aside from maybe the 2 or 3 Tivo employees, actually knows how hard or easy it would be to implement this. If Tivo follows good development practices (and considering how good and stable, overall, their software is, I would say they do) adding this would require 2 or 3 months of testing alone to make sure it doesn't break anything else on the box.


You are right that the Tivo HD says it requires a cable card for digital channels, and QAM mapping is not advertised or promised. QAM functionality is hardly the same as a toaster though, and it's reasonable to ask for it or why it is not provided. You say again that it wouldn't provide Tivo additional revenue, but you don't back up that statement with any data. I understand you and many others probably have digital service, but why do you think there is not a large customer base out there that cannot or does not want to pay the monthly premium for digital service?


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## Koan (Jan 8, 2002)

jblake said:


> ...THAT IS WHY CABLELABS, TIVO, AND THE REST OF THE CONSUMER ELECTRONICS INDUSTRY HAS CREATED CABLECARDS.


The fact is cable companies provide QAM digital channels for basic service customers. Why shouldn't DVR functionality be available?


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

jblake said:


> If you have basic analog cable, then you don't need an HD Tivo. If you need your Tivo to receive digital channels


I don't think you understand how basic cable works. Basic cable includes analog and digital channels. These basic cable digital channels are SD and HD (rebroadcast of the OTA counterparts, assuming the carriage agreements are in place). Almost everyone gets ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, and PBS HD channels as part of basic cable.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

vstone said:


> I don't see how that would fix the missing program guide data problem.


It doesn't. That wasn't what he was trying to accomplish. He just wanted to label 116.1 as NBC-HD so the wife could watch livetv without complaining she didn't know what channel was being watched (the wife part I'm just making up to illustrate the point). He was suggesting this not because he felt it was a superior or alternate solution to QAM mapping, but rather more in an exasperated sense that if TiVo isn't going to do QAM mapping, at least let me label the channels so it is easier to channel surf livetv.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

I have a TV with a clear QAM tuner. They do not advertise that tuner's capability. I have a Samsung STB with a clear QAM tuner. There is no reference to the clear QAM capability in the manual. They probably do this to limit customer support problems. I just looked briefly through the original S3 manual. It discusses using cablecards. It also discuss OTA plus basic cable. I don't think they mean unecrypted QAM as basic cable. I think they are talking analog without a cable box. I don't think they want to support clear QAM. How was this capability announced to the world. Anyone remember?

I think they should go ahead and support it or say it won't be resolved soon or at all because the coding requires too many changes to the code.

If they are indeed working on digital replacement of the S2 (which I'm not sure I believe) they will have to address this.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

sfhub said:


> It doesn't. That wasn't what he was trying to accomplish. He just wanted to label 116.1 as NBC-HD so the wife could watch livetv without complaining she didn't know what channel was being watched (the wife part I'm just making up to illustrate the point). He was suggesting this not because he felt it was a superior or alternate solution to QAM mapping, but rather more in an exasperated sense that if TiVo isn't going to do QAM mapping, at least let me label the channels so it is easier to channel surf livetv.


Well, I think from Tivo's standpoint, they either address the mapping issue or they don't. I can't believe that they would want to add just naming, when that feature is not required if you use the product as they tell you too. If you add labeling without mapping, you're just admitting a problem without really fixing it.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

vstone said:


> I never thought much about the particulars, but I assume that its possible that modifying the existing redirection scheme may be the reason nobody at Tivo wants to talk about this. If the redirection scheme uses the cablecard to map channels to their frequency, the absense of a cablecard obviously breaks this. Perhaps they were so centered on a cablecard box that they didn't think folks would really want to use it without a cablecard and ended up with a system very hard to modify.


TiVo doesn't use the CableCARD to do the redirection in that sense. There is no dynamic call to the CableCARD that says this is channel # I want, please return me the frequency.

What it does use the CableCARD for is to retrieve a virtual channel map which it then presumably converts into TiVo specific internal channel map representation.

This retrieved channel map is detailed in ANSI/SCTE 65
http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/ANSISCTE652002DVS234.pdf

The absense of a CableCARD removes that method of *retrieving* the virtual channel map, but it doesn't preclude an alternate method of populating a virtual channel map, for instance by manual channel mapping.

Without looking at the implementation it is not possible to tell, but if the existing QAM channel mapping mechanisms in TiVo are sufficiently generalized it could be possible to replace the channel map retrieved from the CableCARD with a simulated channel map in the same format, generated through a manual (or automatic) QAM mapping process using user intervention (or PSIP info).


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

vstone said:


> Well, I think from Tivo's standpoint, they either address the mapping issue or they don't. I can't believe that they would want to add just naming, when that feature is not required if you use the product as they tell you too. If you add labeling without mapping, you're just admitting a problem without really fixing it.


I'm not arguing for the feature. I'm explaining what the OP's thought process was. He clearly would prefer QAM channel mapping and stated so. You reply should really be directed at his original post.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

The quote I was responding to said:


jblake said:


> *If you have basic analog cable, then you don't need an HD Tivo.* If you need your Tivo to receive digital channels


I'm pointing out there really is no such thing as "basic *analog* cable" anymore (at least for most customers out there). Your basic subscription includes *analog* and *digital* channels, so a basic "analog" customers could have a need for an HD TiVo (or HD PVR).

*If* the original quote had instead said


jblake said:


> If you have basic cable and want to record digital, then HD Tivo won't get the job done for you without CableCARDs.


then I would agree with what you are saying.


vstone said:


> I have a TV with a clear QAM tuner. They do not advertise that tuner's capability. I have a Samsung STB with a clear QAM tuner. There is no reference to the clear QAM capability in the manual. They probably do this to limit customer support problems. I just looked briefly through the original S3 manual. It discusses using cablecards. It also discuss OTA plus basic cable. I don't think they mean unecrypted QAM as basic cable. I think they are talking analog without a cable box. I don't think they want to support clear QAM. How was this capability announced to the world. Anyone remember?


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Thanks, sfhub. I think I'm almost learning enough to be dangerous!  

Now I need to fine time to attempt to learn from another tech ref!

Pending doing that, is there a whole lot of info in those tables that does not duplicate the info in the PSIP CVCT?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jblake said:


> If you have basic analog cable, then you don't need an HD Tivo.


...and why is this? Basic analog cable provides HD broadcast networks. By FCC mandate, it's part of the service that you are paying for. It's reasonable to expect the Tivo HD to tune the channels you are entitled to receive, with full feature set on those channels.

I agree that Tivo can make whatever product they want. If they don't want this functionality, then they don't have to provide it. But they do so at their own peril. A Tivo that does work with the channels you are entitled to receive has a wider user base than a Tivo that does not.


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## T u r b o (Feb 23, 2000)

jblake said:


> Do you even know how Tivo works internally? I don't, and I'm sure you don't, so how do you know that it is as easy as writing QAM(XX.XX) = Lineup(3432)


Having spent a lot of time going through TiVo's configuration database and resources, I do have a pretty good understanding of how TiVo maps the channels.

TiVo maps tunable channels (like 12, or 84-3) to "stations" in the lineup. A station is identified by it's callsign (channel 3 in Philly is KYW) as well as some other information. Guide data is based on stations, and not channel numbers, which provides a lot of flexibility.

All channels in your lineup are available in the TiVo database on your TiVo. All it takes is some simple changes to map these stations to different channel numbers.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

T u r b o said:


> ...
> All channels in your lineup are available in the TiVo database on your TiVo. All it takes is some simple changes to map these stations to different channel numbers.


Simple changes in the table, but not necessarily simple changes in the code.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

sfhub said:


> Without looking at the implementation it is not possible to tell, but if the existing QAM channel mapping mechanisms in TiVo are sufficiently generalized it could be possible to replace the channel map retrieved from the CableCARD with a simulated channel map in the same format, generated through a manual (or automatic) QAM mapping process using user intervention (or PSIP info).


They have the capability to tune and map program data to: antenna, analog cable, cablecard. Thus I would propose that if whatever mechanism they have is general-purpose enough to handle these three different cases, then it could probably handle clear-QAM as well.

The 'channel list' lists the clear-QAM channels, so obviously the info has made it as far as that data structure. Without knowing anything about the internal data structures, I still speculate that all it needs is a simple pointer from the appropriate entry in the channel list to the guide data (and a reverse pointer back from guide data to channel list). They're probably a lot more concerned with how to do the user interface and how to prevent users from inputting something foolish than they are with implementing the mechanics of the mapping.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jblake said:


> Saying QAM channel mapping is a missing feature is like saying a tivo not having a toaster is a missing feature. Tivo specifically and explicitly states that to get ANY digital cable channels you MUST have a cable card. It's right there on the box. At NO point did they ever advertise that you could get the QAM channels and that all the functionality would be there.


Well, that's the problem right there. They should have included this from the get go. It's inexcusable that they don't.

And for those that think this is too hard to do manually - in Sweden (where I used to live), ALL TV sets and recorders require the user to "map" channels. Basically, they all work like a radio with presets, you can assign any channel to any preset. It's a PIECE OF CAKE and I guarantee that it would have been an equal piece of cake for TiVo to do this if they wanted to: let the user re-assign any frequency to any guide channel number. If THAT is hard to do, then someone has programmed that part of the interface incredibly bad (if it was well done, it should ALREADY work like this, and only require some simple changes that would let the user input the parameters, instead of getting these parameters automatically).

But I don't think it's hard to do at all, it's just that they don't want to deal with and prefer to take the easy way out and blame the cable company.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

dupe - see below


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

smbaker said:


> ...and why is this? Basic analog cable provides HD broadcast networks. By FCC mandate, it's part of the service that you are paying for. It's reasonable to expect the Tivo HD to tune the channels you are entitled to receive, with full feature set on those channels.


Well, some cable systems in Japan in the late 1980's may have supported analog HD, but I doubt we ever saw it on a US cable system. 

CFR talks about a basic tier, which usually corresponds to a cable system's broadcast tier, which is often unadvertised. It includes local broadcast channels (both analog and digital). These are required to be unscrambled and unencrypted. It also usually includes local access channels, and, occasionally, ESPN. At various times on various cable systems it has effectively included channels like ESPNHD, TNTHD, and Discovery HD, but I'm not too sure that this was intentional. The next tier is often the basic cable tier, which is probably all analog and adds a bunch of cable channels. I doubt that the term "basic analog cable" means anything to the FCC outside of those cable systems that are not yet carrying any digital content.


> I agree that Tivo can make whatever product they want. If they don't want this functionality, then they don't have to provide it. But they do so at their own peril. A Tivo that does work with the channels you are entitled to receive has a wider user base than a Tivo that does not.


Yes, but the question is how much wider. Tivo may no think it is much wider, or they may be waiting for cable systems to be properly setup.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

jblake said:


> Saying QAM channel mapping is a missing feature is like saying a tivo not having a toaster is a missing feature. Tivo specifically and explicitly states that to get ANY digital cable channels you MUST have a cable card. It's right there on the box. At NO point did they ever advertise that you could get the QAM channels and that all the functionality would be there.


 I'm tired of this argument... If Tivo really didn't want people trying clear QAM tuning without CableCards then why not disable QAM tuning completely when CableCard(s) not installed? The fact that you can tune QAM without CableCards is a functionality they did choose to provide, so they should support it properly. They do not specifically point out the fact that if you do not use CableCards you will not get full functionality, at least that should be mentioned somewhere... Way back when the S3 was 1st released in megazone's FAQ/review he mentioned that Tivo would consider supporting clear QAM in a future update, so it's not like there was never any intent to support it. Clearly there are higher priorities in the pipeline which is why it hasn't happened, but that doesn't mean everyone clamoring for this feature (and there are surprisingly many) have no leg to stand on.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Well, that's the problem right there. They should have included this from the get go. It's inexcusable that they don't.


Well that's really a design/marketing decision. We may disagree with it. We may think that it's a mistake. However, in some respects its not much different from saying should the Tivo box be black or silver (or ...). The only people who can really consider it inexcusable are the stockholders, who may want to know the hows and whys of the decision or was this just missed by mistake until they were too far down the excution path to react in real time.


> And for those that think this is too hard to do manually - in Sweden (where I used to live), ALL TV sets and recorders require the user to "map" channels. Basically, they all work like a radio with presets, you can assign any channel to any preset. It's a PIECE OF CAKE and I guarantee that it would have been an equal piece of cake for TiVo to do this if they wanted to: let the user re-assign any frequency to any guide channel number. If THAT is hard to do, then someone has programmed that part of the interface incredibly bad (if it was well done, it should ALREADY work like this, and only require some simple changes that would let the user input the parameters, instead of getting these parameters automatically).
> 
> But I don't think it's hard to do at all, it's just that they don't want to deal with and prefer to take the easy way out and blame the cable company.


I agree that its PROBABLY not hard to do, but if this code was tweaked for performance reasons, manual mapping may just remove the performance benefit.

I'm sure the Tivo folk often look at some of our messages, including mine (maybe especially including mine) and say "What a bunch of idiots!" or "Don't these folk live in the real world?"


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

moyekj said:


> I'm tired of this argument... If Tivo really didn't want people trying clear QAM tuning without CableCards then why not disable QAM tuning completely when CableCard(s) not installed? The fact that you can tune QAM without CableCards is a functionality they did choose to provide, so they should support it properly. They do not specifically point out the fact that if you do not use CableCards you will not get full functionality, at least that should be mentioned somewhere... Way back when the S3 was 1st released in megazone's FAQ/review he mentioned that Tivo would consider supporting clear QAM in a future update, so it's not like there was never any intent to support it. Clearly there are higher priorities in the pipeline which is why it hasn't happened, but that doesn't mean everyone clamoring for this feature (and there are surprisingly many) have no leg to stand on.


Who knows? Maybe they're testing this even as we speak, er, type.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

jblake said:


> Tivo may have thought about this and worked out the numbers and came to a compromise..if you want local HD channels without a cable card, use OTA...simple enough.


Unless you live in the Denver market and don't have a prayer getting a good OTA digital signal for a year or so.

Basic QAM mapping is easy and Tivo just needs to get it done.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

vstone said:


> I agree that its PROBABLY not hard to do, but if this code was tweaked for performance reasons, manual mapping may just remove the performance benefit.


Oh come on! It's filling in a pointer in the channel list! They could add ten levels of indirection between the channel list and the guide data and have no noticable affect on performance.

There are things that can affect performance. This is not one of them. I think it's much more likely that they are concerned about the lack of an intuitive way to do this in the user interface than performance. Either that, or they simply haven't got around to it.

Finally there's always the possibility of a 'back room deal' between Tivo, the cablecos, and the cablecard company.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

I signed up for a steeply discounted digital package for a year from Comcast. Halfway through that year I got my S3 and cablecards. When the year was up, I canceled and downgraded back to lifeline basic. I kept the cablecards.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

smbaker said:


> I think it's much more likely that they are concerned about the lack of an intuitive way to do this in the user interface than performance. Either that, or they simply haven't got around to it.


That's my thinking also. IMO the biggest reasons you haven't seen QAM mapping are likely:
1) working on TiVo HD is more important
2) getting M-card working in M-mode is more important and affects more people
3) TTG and MRV are more important
4) official eSATA is more important
5) TiVo generally likes to think about the UI to make it idiot proof and they just don't have the time to think about it given other concerns so it isn't high on the priority list
6) how much exposure to customer support calls they may get with cable company moving channels around after they have been originally mapped and whether they can use PSIP to do the mapping automatically

Personally I have 2 S3s with 4 CableCARDs already. If I could get TiVo HD to work without CableCARDs I'd buy 2 TiVo HDs. It took me 3 weeks of back and forth to get my CableCARD billing the way it should be and everytime I change anything on my bill (including adding/subtracting equipment), they go back to the wrong way. Significant portions of my HD recording are within basic cable and I don't need every TiVo to have access to all the channels. 2 TiVo's with full access is good enough for me. I just need the additional TiVo's to record from basic cable and play on my main TiVo's over MRV. I expect many people are not in my situation but there are other situations where having TiVo HDs work w/o need for CableCARDs would convince them to buy (or buy more) units.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

greg_burns said:


> I signed up for a steeply discounted digital package for a year from Comcast. Halfway through that year I got my S3 and cablecards. When the year was up, I canceled and downgraded back to lifeline basic. I kept the cablecards.


I think when TiVo was originally designing the S3, they were under the false impression that CableCARDs would be something relatively simple for the end-user where they paid $1.50 and it just worked. I don't think they really anticipated the amount of CableCARD billing and installation nightmares that their users could be exposed to. Some people are scheduling 3+ visits and spending hours on the phone. Some people are being forced to pay HD equipment fees even though they are providing their own equipment, false additional outlet charges, etc. In some cases installing a TiVo results in *more* charges than leasing the cable company PVR.

There are many people who have no problem at all and it is just a matter of paying $1.50, scheduling a 1hr appointment, and everything works. I think those people would look at this thread and wonder why are you spending so much time discussing QAM mapping.

On the other hand, there are people who either had nightmares with billing, installation, or both, as well as people who simply feel it is a waste for them to pay money for a CableCARD just to do a channel mapping. They are probably ok with paying for a CableCARD to do decryption, but channel mapping is a waste, because they already receive the channel fine and other products they have used allow channel mapping.

They want to get back to the old cable-ready days where you pay for service and then you can connect as many devices as you need w/o needing to call the cable company.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

Basic cable does not include any digital channels, save for the OTA HD that is included on the line. However, it is stated, and I have said this in almost every post, the Tivo box specifically says that a cable card is required for full functionality regarding digital channels received by cable. If you didn't like that, then you shouldn't have bought it. We have plenty of time to sit and argue about it, but luckily Tivo is working on features such as Tivo to go and who knows what else that will actually make a difference to the bottom line, and that is the only thing that motivates them.

If you want local HD channels then use OTA. Them's the breaks. Tivo can't give everything to everyone all the time. Sorry that you can't get OTA HD. ***** to the TV stations. I can't get DSL back home. Do I gripe at Apple that my computer doesn't have some way of high speed internet? No. 

If you think QAM channel mapping would be used as a back door any more than 30 second skip, you are mistaken. Most people wouldn't have a clue what QAM is, and most everyday Joes aren't going to go through the hassle of mapping channels. The only people who would use that feature are the 30 or so geeks in this thread who want it so badly (and don't think I'm trying to disparage anyone here, I'm just as big a geek as anyone else)


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jblake said:


> Basic cable does not include any digital channels, save for the OTA HD that is included on the line.


That's like saying "basic cable does not include any analog channels, save for the OTA channels that are included, and maybe 3 or 4 more". Basic cable includes digital channels - period. It's not something particularly exotic.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jblake said:


> The only people who would use that feature are the 30 or so geeks in this thread who want it so badly (and don't think I'm trying to disparage anyone here, I'm just as big a geek as anyone else)


I'm glad to know that the cablecard is such a success that there are only 30 people subscribing to basic cable who do not have cablecards...

I'll bet if we could get the data from the cable companies about how many people are subscribing to basic cable, we would find the number is probably a lot closer to 30 million than it is 30. That is the subscriber base that the Tivo HD/S3 are not tapping.

As I've pointed out many times, my clear-QAM channels have the appropriate channel numbers encoded into their PSIP data. The channel numbers match the OTA station numbers. It's a simple matter of the Tivo recognizing this and applying some common sense. Will it work for everyone? No. That's why some people want a manual mapping feature.


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## Koan (Jan 8, 2002)

jblake said:


> Basic cable does not include any digital channels, save for the OTA HD that is included on the line.


Another statement without foundation. My Comcast basic tier includes both digital OTA HD and digital non-OTA SD channels.



> However, it is stated, and I have said this in almost every post, the Tivo box specifically says that a cable card is required for full functionality regarding digital channels received by cable. If you didn't like that, then you shouldn't have bought it.


I haven't, and will stick to my series 1 unless the QAM mapping happens or I can improve OTA reception.



> If you want local HD channels then use OTA. Them's the breaks. Tivo can't give everything to everyone all the time.


Maybe they can't, but maybe there are some things they can do without a lot of effort. No harm in asking for it.



> Sorry that you can't get OTA HD. ***** to the TV stations. I can't get DSL back home. Do I gripe at Apple that my computer doesn't have some way of high speed internet? No.


Another bad analogy. Apple's business model isn't providing high speed Internet to computer users; Tivo is in the business of providing DVR service for TV viewers.



> If you think QAM channel mapping would be used as a back door any more than 30 second skip, you are mistaken. Most people wouldn't have a clue what QAM is, and most everyday Joes aren't going to go through the hassle of mapping channels. The only people who would use that feature are the 30 or so geeks in this thread who want it so badly (and don't think I'm trying to disparage anyone here, I'm just as big a geek as anyone else)


Not to enter into an argument about the number of geeks and others who can & would follow clear instructions, but the point is there are a sizable number of potential customers who subscribe only to the basic cable tier who might buy the Tivo HD if it offered QAM mapping.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

jblake said:


> However, it is stated, and I have said this in almost every post, the Tivo box specifically says that a cable card is required for full functionality regarding digital channels received by cable. If you didn't like that, then you shouldn't have bought it.


Are you reading the same thread? People are not complaining that TiVo lied to them about the HD or S3 being able to record digital cable with no CableCARDs present. We know that it requires CableCARD and the reason for that being the channel maps (and decryption if your cable package requires it)

From what I gather, this is what the pro-QAM mapping folks are saying:
1) I won't buy a unit unless there is QAM mapping
2) I would buy another unit if there was QAM mapping
3) it shouldn't have to be this way, requiring CableCARDs, just for channel mapping because there are alternate solutions.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

This thread has actually been hilarious.

We've gone everywhere from "slightly inconvenient" to "not feasible" and back again, whatever was convenient for the moment to dismiss the feature.

When people want to be dismissive, they REALLY want to be dismissive.

To dismiss the cable subscribers that want to watch the digital/HD channels that they are entitled to get by government mandate as being some sort of small nerdy niche, that makes me LOL.

The terminology of "QAM mapping" SOUNDS like a nerdy concept, but to average people that say, "I want to watch HD channels I am paying the CC for, and the seasons passes I am paying Tivo for," it is not a small niche worth dismissing by any credible stretch of the imagination.

To also dismiss the feature because it doesn't make Tivo any money, are you serious? Season Passes are feature #1 over other DVRs. If Tivo can't even offer (1) the correct guide data to the channels we receive to (2) use season passes, that's all the fewer reasons to even have the Tivo. That sounds like money lost to me.

Are there any new excuses left? Do the terrorists win if we use open QAM?


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

vstone said:


> Originally Posted by vstone
> I agree that its PROBABLY not hard to do, but if this code was tweaked for performance reasons, manual mapping may just remove the performance benefit





smbaker said:


> Oh come on! It's filling in a pointer in the channel list! They could add ten levels of indirection between the channel list and the guide data and have no noticable affect on performance.
> ..


I guess the only thing I have to say is that I'm sorry the word "probably" isn't strong enough for you


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

vstone said:


> I guess the only thing I have to say is that I'm sorry the word "probably" isn't strong enough for you


No, I know where you were coming from. It's just that people seem to have pulled every conceivable excuse out of the hat for this being more difficult to do than it is. Someone was bound to try to attach performance to it sooner or later.

Unless there is some extraordinarily mind-bogglingly convoluted in the way the Tivo is code is designed, then the QAM mapping feature people are asking for is a minor modification that would have no effect on performance. In fact, I think "QAM mapping" is even too strong a word for it; it really just boils down to being able to associate guide data with channels in the channel list that have no guide data.

I still speculate that it comes down to the user-interface, which is in and of itself not difficult to program, but probably difficult for them to design an an intuitive manner. Either that or a "back-room deal" (i.e. cablelabs to Tivo: "You might find it easier to get MRV approved if your Tivo *requires* cable cards for HD").


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jblake said:


> B
> If you want local HD channels then use OTA. Them's the breaks. Tivo can't give everything to everyone all the time. Sorry that you can't get OTA HD. ***** to the TV stations. I can't get DSL back home. Do I gripe at Apple that my computer doesn't have some way of high speed internet? No.


This is more like if you got a high-speed Internet connection for free, but your Apple computer would only allow you to use a connection you paid for. You bet Apple would get a lot of complaints for that!


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Are there any new excuses left? Do the terrorists win if we use open QAM?


Well now that you mention it, Al-Qaeda does sound like the kind of group that would like to be able to watch digital programming without having to pay additional fees to the western capitalist infidels.... 

I think every possible excuse for not allowing clear-QAM has been enumerated. Tivo doesn't want to do it. I'm convinced it's not a technological problem, but is a human problem. Either they think the user-base is too dumb to use the feature properly, that the user base is dying for an excuse to lease cablecards, or that the user-base doesn't know they are entitled to free HD channels.

Personally I think the FCC should clear up the latter with some kind of campaign to inform the public that their basic cable includes digital HD networks. Let the cablecos deal with the CSR problems related with angry customers calling in and complaining about not receiving HD due to cableco obfuscation of channel numbers.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

For what it's worth, the people who want QAM mapping worse than peace on Earth have been pretty dismissive too. The fact of the matter is no one here knows how hard or easy it would be, and just because a vocal few on this board aren't going to buy an HD Tivo until it has it, doesn't mean that there are millions waiting for it. Tivo has prioritized the features they want to spend their development time on, and it's obvious that they're putting their efforts in other projects (Tivo To Go, etc). 

No cable company I have ever dealt with gives away the digital channels. Basic cable, at least at the 3 cable companies in the Birmingham, Alabama area (Charter, Comcast, and Bright House) do not put digital cable channels in the clear. When you connect a clear QAM tuner you get the OTA HD and a couple of barker channels. And if you want the local HD channels, Tivo already has a solution..an ATSC tuner. Why would they duplicate their efforts and include an ATSC tuner and then turn around and put resources into QAM mapping when most customers probably have digital cable anyway? Tivo has made a stand and said that if you do not want to use a cable card and you DO want OTA HD, then use OTA instead of the Open QAM channels.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

smbaker said:


> ...
> I still speculate that it comes down to the user-interface, which is in and of itself not difficult to program, but probably difficult for them to design an an intuitive manner.


If I had to bet, I'd bet on that. I've written programs for people where they basically designed the UI and I still had to explain it to them.


smbaker said:


> ...
> Personally I think the FCC should clear up the latter with some kind of campaign to inform the public that their basic cable includes digital HD networks.


Hear, Hear! But you & I don't have a lobbying budget.


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## SAH2 (Apr 1, 2007)

sfhub said:


> From what I gather, this is what the pro-QAM mapping folks are saying:
> 1) I won't buy a unit unless there is QAM mapping
> 2) I would buy another unit if there was QAM mapping
> 3) it shouldn't have to be this way, requiring CableCARDs, just for channel mapping because there are alternate solutions.


I fall into 2 of these categories. I have an S3 in the living room, but would buy 2 more HDTivo's for other rooms if they could handle the QAM mapping. I would also replace my parents S1 with one. The only have basic cable, and only watch the HD that is QAM in the clear. They do not want to upgrade to digital cable, and OTA is only an option for 2 channels due to their location. They are in their mid seventies and could not handle manual recording and would miss the Season Pass for the network HD. The obscure channels that Cox uses for the network shows is also confusing to them. They cannot remember that 111-1 is NBC HD and 111-6 is ABC HD.

I would actually be willing to pay a higher price if QAM mapping that allowed full Tivo functionality was included.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jblake said:


> No cable company I have ever dealt with gives away the digital channels. Basic cable, at least at the 3 cable companies in the Birmingham, Alabama area (Charter, Comcast, and Bright House) do not put digital cable channels in the clear. When you connect a clear QAM tuner you get the OTA HD and a couple of barker channels.


I think this is where we're misunderstanding each other. OTA HD is a digital channel. The cable companies are required to 'give away' the HD networks with basic cable service. Thus, basic cable service includes both analog AND digital channels.

I'm not asking for "Discovery-Antartica HD" or "History-Mars HD" or whatever oddball HD channels the cableco wants to sell me. I want the HD network channels that I am already paying for as part of my basic subscription.

Can I use an OTA antenna? In my case I can, and I've recently hooked one up (makes me feel like I'm back in the 70's). My point remains that I'm paying the cable company for HD network programming. Why should I need to use a rabbit ear antenna to pick up a channel that I AM PAYING the cable company to provide me with?


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## SAH2 (Apr 1, 2007)

jblake said:


> No cable company I have ever dealt with gives away the digital channels. Basic cable, at least at the 3 cable companies in the Birmingham, Alabama area (Charter, Comcast, and Bright House) do not put digital cable channels in the clear. When you connect a clear QAM tuner you get the OTA HD and a couple of barker channels. And if you want the local HD channels, Tivo already has a solution..an ATSC tuner. Why would they duplicate their efforts and include an ATSC tuner and then turn around and put resources into QAM mapping when most customers probably have digital cable anyway? Tivo has made a stand and said that if you do not want to use a cable card and you DO want OTA HD, then use OTA instead of the Open QAM channels.


I think you are missing that OTA requires an external anternna and is dependant on your location. Some people cannot get reception due to their geographic location. Their TV's can all pickup network HD, included by law in their basic cable, and they just want the same for the Tivo.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

SAH2 said:


> I fall into 2 of these categories. I have an S3 in the living room, but would buy 2 more HDTivo's for other rooms if they could handle the QAM mapping. I would also replace my parents S1 with one. The only have basic cable, and only watch the HD that is QAM in the clear. They do not want to upgrade to digital cable, and OTA is only an option for 2 channels due to their location. They are in their mid seventies and could not handle manual recording and would miss the Season Pass for the network HD. The obscure channels that Cox uses for the network shows is also confusing to them. They cannot remember that 111-1 is NBC HD and 111-6 is ABC HD.
> 
> I would actually be willing to pay a higher price if QAM mapping that allowed full Tivo functionality was included.


Would they be able to handle remapping them when the cable company changes them? Will you be willing to help reprogram it if they aren't? And how much and at what point are you willing to pay more..at the purchase of the box, or in the monthly fee? Why not just get some cable cards but not upgrade to digital cable?


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

smbaker said:


> I think this is where we're misunderstanding each other. OTA HD is a digital channel. The cable companies are required to 'give away' the HD networks with basic cable service. Thus, basic cable service includes both analog AND digital channels.
> 
> I'm not asking for "Discovery-Antartica HD" or "History-Mars HD" or whatever oddball HD channels the cableco wants to sell me. I want the HD network channels that I am already paying for as part of my basic subscription.
> 
> Can I use an OTA antenna? In my case I can, and I've recently hooked one up (makes me feel like I'm back in the 70's). My point remains that I'm paying the cable company for HD network programming. Why should I need to use a rabbit ear antenna to pick up a channel that I AM PAYING the cable company to provide me with?


I know that the OTA HD channels are digital. I think what people are trying to say is that on their systems all of the "digital tier" channels are out there free, which actually in most cases they are not. When I say "basic" or "analog" I'm referring to the lowest tier, the one that doesn't include all the channels you get when you get a set top box.

I know that a lot of people can't get OTA HD due to their location, but Tivo can't help where you live. There are some breaks when it comes to providing a box that does what the Tivo HD does at the price point they are offering it. One of those breaks is putting in an ATSC tuner for those who don't want digital cable, and requiring a cable card for those who do.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jblake said:


> I know that the OTA HD channels are digital. I think what people are trying to say is that on their systems all of the "digital tier" channels are out there free, which actually in most cases they are not.


Who is saying that? Nobody in this thread at least. Someone mentioned a couple of channels that were added, probably by mistake, that's all. What the discussion has been about are the free HD basic cable network channels. I don't understand how you could have interpreted it any other way.


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## Koan (Jan 8, 2002)

jblake said:


> I know that the OTA HD channels are digital. I think what people are trying to say is that on their systems all of the "digital tier" channels are out there free, which actually in most cases they are not.


No one said that. I said I also get some digital SD channels on my basic tier here in Arlington, VA, which is true. These channels are "0" subchannels; i.e., 0-1, 0-2, etc. My HD channels are "1" subchannels in the same way.



> I know that a lot of people can't get OTA HD due to their location, but Tivo can't help where you live. There are some breaks when it comes to providing a box that does what the Tivo HD does at the price point they are offering it. One of those breaks is putting in an ATSC tuner for those who don't want digital cable, and requiring a cable card for those who do.


Unless you have inside knowledge, I would rather hear from Tivo on this. You haven't shown that you are doing anything more than guessing at Tivo's reasons.


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## SAH2 (Apr 1, 2007)

jblake said:


> Would they be able to handle remapping them when the cable company changes them? Will you be willing to help reprogram it if they aren't? And how much and at what point are you willing to pay more..at the purchase of the box, or in the monthly fee? Why not just get some cable cards but not upgrade to digital cable?


The remapping would not be a problem. I do "remote PC support" now 

Where we are, Cox will not supply cable cards unless you upgrade your service about $40 a month more after everything is added in. This makes no financial sense just to get Tivo guide data for 4 channels.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jblake said:


> I know that the OTA HD channels are digital. I think what people are trying to say is that on their systems all of the "digital tier" channels are out there free, which actually in most cases they are not. When I say "basic" or "analog" I'm referring to the lowest tier, the one that doesn't include all the channels you get when you get a set top box.


My point has been from the beginning that my primary interest is in the broadcast networks. I don't really care one way or another what happens to all the other clear-QAM digital channels. It don't need to snoop on someone's VOB programming or weird discovery offerings. If we happened to get a capability to use those 'other' digital channels, then fine. If we don't, that's fine too.

I just want the programming that I pay for, which includes four digital HD networks. My Tivo should work on those four channels the same way it works on the other channels that I pay for, without a reduced function set.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jblake said:


> Would they be able to handle remapping them when the cable company changes them? Will you be willing to help reprogram it if they aren't? And how much and at what point are you willing to pay more..at the purchase of the box, or in the monthly fee?


If the clear-QAM channels that my TV tunes happen to change, do I call up Hitachi and say "Oh My God I don't know what to do the channel numbers changed!" ? I think you're giving people far too little credit. If someone is smart enough to program the channel mapping, then they are smart enough to reprogram it if the channels change.

If Tivo was really really concerned about this they could even stick a little disclaimer there with a "press thumbs down three times" confirmation that you understood that a user-defined mapping could change in the future. They could even set up a 'user-defined mapping flag' when the Tivo phones in for call data, so that your account would be flagged and tech support would know that you were using user-defined mappings if you called in [after all, last time I talked to a Tivo rep, they told *me* what size hard drive I had installed, so they're certainly getting info from the box]



> Why not just get some cable cards but not upgrade to digital cable?


The cable company is doing to give you cablecards without requiring you to subscribe to digital cable? Even if they would, they still want to charge me for each card, the cards are still a pain in the butt requiring an installer to install them, there are technical problems [pixelation, etc] associated with the cards, and the whole scheme makes the Tivo less reliable because it now relies on third party hardware that Tivo does not control.

Even if they gave me cablecards for free, why do I want them? The Tivo tunes the clear-QAM channels just fine, and the channels have the appropriate OTA channel numbers in the PSIP data.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

SAH2 said:


> Where we are, Cox will not supply cable cards unless you upgrade your service about $40 a month more after everything is added in.  This makes no financial sense just to get Tivo guide data for 4 channels.


That's what the CSR at Cox here told me too when I called them and asked (that I needed the digital package to get CableCARDs). She might have been wrong, but I didn't call back and try someone else. I don't see why I should have to go through all these hoops to be able to record something I am already paying for and that my TiVo already receives!

I went with OTA instead, which works fine, except for one channel. It seems more than a little silly though to have the "rabbit ears" next to my TV when my TiVo tunes the same channels from cable just fine... it just can't use the regular TiVo recording methods on them. I did end up adding the CW to the "channels I receive" even though it's on 106.1 instead of 58.1, because I can't get it OTA. So to record something in HD on that channel, I will have to use basic VCR functionality. Ridiculous.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

MickeS said:


> That's what the CSR at Cox here told me too when I called them and asked (that I needed the digital package to get CableCARDs). She might have been wrong, but I didn't call back and try someone else.


That is true of Comcast as well (in my area at least). When I canceled digital service, they wanted to collect the cards again. I just conveniently wasnt home the day of my appointment to downgrade. (like I was going to take a day off work for that  ). Dont get me started on what adding the inline-filter to my cable line to block the higher channels did to my internet service...  Comcast has been to my house more times since downgrading than I care to count.

They know I have the cards, they show up as a line item on my bill every month for $0.00. :up: I was also finally able to get rid of that ridiculous additional digital outlet charge too.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

This thread alone with 2300+ views and many responses along with other threads in the past and the number of views and responses prove that there is a lot of interest just by forum frequenters alone in this capability... Personally I would rank this more important than Swivel Search, Kidzone, and other features I'll never use (I won't use Unbox either but understand Tivo motivation to get that released), but that's just me... I know 2 people at work that with lifeline basic cable that would have bought Tivo HD units had it not meant they had to upgrade to digital cable + CCs just to get proper DVR functionality for recording network HD channels. The Tivo HD release now is closer to the target price point for these "cheap" folks who don't want to pay for full digital cable (not really because they are cheap but they are fine with just network channels). Add in proper clear QAM support and all of a sudden this becomes a compelling solution to them.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

moyekj said:


> I know 2 people at work that with lifeline basic cable that would have bought Tivo HD units had it not meant they had to upgrade to digital cable + CCs just to get proper DVR functionality for recording network HD channels.


I have two additional Tivos that I would seriously consider upgrading to HD models, but I will not do so until they support cable HD networks w/o cablecard. One set of rabbit ears is enough for my household -- I'm not going to stick a set of rabbit ears on every Tivo-enabled TV in the house, nor am I going to climb onto my roof and install a whole-house OTA antenna when I'm paying for cable service that provides the channels I want to record.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

jblake said:


> I think what people are trying to say is that on their systems all of the "digital tier" channels are out there free


No people are trying to say this. At all.


jblake said:


> I know that a lot of people can't get OTA HD due to their location, but Tivo can't help where you live.


You are forgetting why cable TV started out in the first place. It wasn't to provide _more channels _ than was available over-the-air; it was to provide the over-the-air signals to those _who could not otherwise receive them_. Originally cable did nothing more than retransmit the local broadcast stations, but with better signal quality. There are many, many places in the U.S. where it is difficult/impossible to receive all local digital stations using an antenna, or where erecting an antenna is difficult/impossible (think multi-story condos, rentals, dorms, rural homes, challenging geography, basement or whole-house reception for which antennas are impractical, elderly/disabled people who cannot erect rooftop antennas, etc).

Let's look at this logically. Take "Limited Basic" cable subscribers. Why do you think so many people subscribe to it? All you get are the locals (and some crap shopping channels)...so why don't all "Limited Basic" customers use an antenna instead? Maybe because...they can't? The large number of "Limited Basic" cable subscribers proves there is a sizable market that cannot be served by antennas (and "Limited Basic" subs are only the tip of the iceberg...you'd also have to add in many people who upgraded to other cable packages or even to satellite, but who still could not realistically use antennas). Even as everything transitions to digital (including OTA), that market will remain.

Let's continue our logic by asking if there's a large market of people who only want to watch local HD. Well, that market is large enough for TiVo to justify the relatively huge expense of 2 ATSC tuners in the S3. TiVo would not do this unless there were some serious numbers behind it.

So, now we have 2 large markets: those who cannot use antennas, and those who only want local HD. Take the intersection of the two; what do you have? A large market, comprised of those who cannot use antennas and who only want local HD.

This is bad. These are lost customers, or disappointed customers, or annoyed and irritated customers. The fact is, TiVo _can help where you live_. They can support inexpensive local HD content delivery, whether by antenna or cable. It really is that simple.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

jblake said:


> I know that the OTA HD channels are digital. I think what people are trying to say is that on their systems all of the "digital tier" channels are out there free, which actually in most cases they are not. When I say "basic" or "analog" I'm referring to the lowest tier, the one that doesn't include all the channels you get when you get a set top box.
> ...


Nope. The FCC mandatede basic tier is the OTA stuff. I'm not even sure that they're required to carry digital at all, but I think the interpretation is that if they carry it it most be unencryptee. On many, probably most, digital systems you get the basic cable tier (about 40 channels) viewable on your analog TV when the cable company removes a filter on the coax feeding your house. No STB required.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Saxion said:


> ...
> So, now we have 2 large markets: those who cannot use antennas, and those who only want local HD. Take the intersection of the two; what do you have? A large market, comprised of those who cannot use antennas and who only want local HD.
> ...


Now we're really talking about the market for digital cable STB's, not all of which will be in the market for a DVR.


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## clark_kent (May 6, 2007)

TiVo must LOVE all you guys that blindly defend TiVo, and conjure up reasons as to why they can not (some technical BS) or why they do not need to (some other BS) provide full TiVo functionality for ALL UNencrypted digital channels, WITHOUT a cableCard. 

And, those that think that only a handful of 30 some odd geeks are the only ones interested in recording UNencrypted local HD broadcast on there TiVo (with full TiVo functionality) are also equally out of touch with reality. 

Panasonic will probably sell thousands of DVD PVRs (I talked about above) to customers that want to record and time shift programming off the cable. It does not have TiVo sophistication or TiVo functionality, but it does tune ALL digital (including QAM) channel correctly. It does display ALL digital channel numbers correctly (even QAM). It will display ALL UNencrypted programs and happily schedule the recording of any digital channel without (crying) about needing a cableCard to do the job. You can schedule recordings on any channel, it doesnt matter what the label is and it doesnt even matter if there is anything viewable or not. It does have a very nifty feature: when you open up the schedule menu, a small window pops in that displays the current program on the channel number selected for recording. And, apparently, Panasonic does not think that they will end up with a support nightmare by allowing customers to attach any label to any channel (they do provide a table of labels, but you can make up your own label, if you like). 

I dont know if the Panasonic is the first of a new bread of personal video recorders that are fully digital (QAM) capable. Im sure there will be similar devices from other major players that will also be able to record digital HD programming WITHOUT (crying about) the need of a cableCard. And, sooner or later, some of those units will have hard disk drives built-in, and some will probably even offer TVguide (or similar) program guide data WITHOUT crying that that you need a cableCard.

Lets get back to TiVo. 

It wouldnt surprise me one bit to find that when the S1 came out, most TiVo customers where using the S1 to (merely) time shift ordinary local network broadcast channels. Sure, there where lots of cable ready channels, but, (most likely) there was more basic cable subscribers then anything else. Back in those days, the local channel lineup was relatively simple but setting the VCR clock to work was not. TiVo came along with a great product that offered a lot of features and flexibility to cable TV viewers. If I where to think about why TiVo development engineers did what they did, I would say that given the relative simplicity of cable and cable ready channels and the associated channel labels, they could have easily decided that since all cable channels and there associated labels was always a know quantity in every cable market; and there was no HD, no QAM, and no virtual channels or virtual mapping. So, if you take that view, then why would they want to introduce labeling when labeling was totally unnecessary, and why in the world would they want to over complicate the user interface with channel mapping when that was also totally unnecessary. If that was the thinking at that time, I could see how that might be reasonable and understandable. And, if that was the thinking, my guess is that they perpetuated and projected that thinking into all other successor TiVo products without any thought for change, since they already decided that no one would ever need any of that. I could also imagine that TiVo might have look at cable companies list of fees and came away thinking that no one is going to quibble with a $1.50 charge for a cableCard? If that was the case, it was obviously very naive. As its been pointed out by others, cable companies will not allow you to have a cableCard unless you add several tiers to your subscription. By then, your not paying just $1.50, your up to $40/$60/$80 some dollars (depending on your market), for a whole bunch of stuff you did not want. All you want is the cableCard. And, why do we need a cableCard? Is it the job of a cableCard to provide guide data? NO. Is it the job of a cableCard to provide digital channels numbers? NO. Is it the job of a cableCard to provide channel label information? NO. The job of a cableCard is to authorize reception of premium, ENCRYPTED service! WHY should we be forced to subscribe to unwanted service if we dont want ANY of those encrypted services in the first place? 

Lets forget the word QAM. Its too complicated and only geeks relate to it. 

Local network digital HD broadcast is on the cable in UNencrypted form. Does anyone honestly think that cable companies are putting local HD programming on the cable in UNencrypted form out of the goodness of there hart? Or, because they want to be nice to cable subscribers? Or, that maybe UNencrypted HD is there by mistake? NO. The ONLY reason local HD network is on the cable, UNencrypted, is because its mandated that the cable company MUST do that. Otherwise, they would encrypt all HD programming in a microsecond! Theres revenue value to the cable company in anything thats HD and theyre not about to let ANY revenue slip off the table (even if they are not entitled to it).

All you TiVo customers that voluntarily subscribe and want premium (encrypted) channels via cableCard, I say, good luck and go in peace. To those that think that only a handful of TiVo customers would want to record a few local HD channels, I say, you dont know what the heck your talking about. I bet the biggest TiVo S1 customer base is comprised of those that mainly watch (and record) local network broadcast. Anyone that has seen an HD program wants more HD. The networks got the message and from what I hear, there will be a slew of new network programs in HD come the fall season. I think theres a bunch of TiVo customers that are going to want to use TiVo on those UNencrypted local HD channels and be able to record those programs using the season pass.

The bottom line is that the S3 and I suspect the THD do not work as they should:

First, the S3 lays goose eggs for digital channels numbers. My unit is not a single isolated case. I personally have had three S3s on the same cable source and they all lay eggs; some lay more eggs then others. And, (I think) that Ive read posts by other S3 owners reporting similar egg harvestings. I know that at lease one THD owner has posted that his unit also laid a bunch of goose eggs. This IS a TiVo problem. TiVo should acknowledge the problem and tell us when/how it will be resolved. Telling us that we must use a cableCard to fix this problem is not only false but also misleading, at best, but the misdirection is deceptive.

Second, for TiVo to tell us that we must use a cableCard to have full TiVo functionality for UNencrypted HD channels is also false and misleading at best, and the misdirection is again deceptive. 

It is NOT the job of a cableCard to solve these two problems!

I may have uncovered a TiVo statement that supports the above premise. Most of the time that Ive gone through a setup process, I dont read all the stuff, I just click through it (like, who reads a manual). But the last time, I read some of the stuff and when you get to the setup page that asks if you have a cableCard and you check no you get a nice warning message in big bold letter telling you that:

Without a CableCard DECODER you will NOT be able to watch or record ENCRYPTED digital programming from your cable provider. (note: the emphasis is my doing)

My interpretation of that statement from TiVo: OK, whats the big deal? I dont want encrypted channels and why would I want to record any encrypted channel that I dont receive? 

My additional interpretation of that statement from TiVo: If it is NOT encrypted, Im entitled to full TiVo functionality! I get channel guides; I get to watch the channels; I get to record using season pass; in other words, full (normal) TiVo functionality (IS IMPLIED) for ALL UNENCRYPTED channels! 

So, TiVo, fix it already!!!


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## TiVoMonkey (Jan 12, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> Tivo may not have any means to do [automatic] QAM mapping if that data isn't offered by Tribune.


Exactly, Tribune does not have the QAM mapping information from the Cable companies.

Why would they? The cable companies map these QAMs to channels, and those channels are information that Tribune uses.

QAM mappings can vary by cable region, division, system, or even hub site, depending on the setup.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

TiVoMonkey said:


> Exactly, Tribune does not have the QAM mapping information from the Cable companies.
> 
> Why would they? The cable companies map these QAMs to channels, and those channels are information that Tribune uses.
> 
> QAM mappings can vary by cable region, division, system, or even hub site, depending on the setup.


And the most important....*subject to change*


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jblake said:


> And the most important....*subject to change*


Comcast in Hartford CT just moved all the OTA HD QAM channels to numbers that correspond to the current OTA stations. So normal NBC is OTA on UHF Ch 30 the cable analog is on ch 4 but the QAM HD for NBC is on 30-1, this just was fully implemented in the last few months, so things are a changing.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

TiVoMonkey said:


> Exactly, Tribune does not have the QAM mapping information from the Cable companies.
> 
> Why would they? The cable companies map these QAMs to channels, and those channels are information that Tribune uses.
> 
> QAM mappings can vary by cable region, division, system, or even hub site, depending on the setup.


Already discussed. For a large number of folks in question, PSIP virtual channel map information carries the information necessary to keep the OTA rebroadcast channels in sync. A simple nightly verification and/or scanning procedure would keep everything in sync with no need for user intervention.

For those areas where it isn't present or is only partially present then the person interested in the mapping feature needs to manually remap.

jblake will look at a manual remap situation as the glass is half full, the world will end, and tivo support will be swamped, but the reality is many folks would be willing to live with some inconvenience if there was at least some solution, albeit not 100%, rather than the current situation of absolutely no solution.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

clark_kent said:


> And, why do we need a cableCard? Is it the job of a cableCard to provide guide data? NO. Is it the job of a cableCard to provide digital channels numbers? NO. Is it the job of a cableCard to provide channel label information? NO. The job of a cableCard is to authorize reception of premium, ENCRYPTED service! WHY should we be forced to subscribe to unwanted service if we dont want ANY of those encrypted services in the first place?


That is the essence of my complaint too. There should be NO reason for us to be forced to get a CableCARD just to use the basic TiVo functionality on a channel that the TiVo already receives WITHOUT a CableCARD.


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## frantishak (Dec 7, 2006)

The only way for us to get noticed is to email Tivo about it every month (or every week!). As far as I am concern, the fact that there is no guide data for Unencrypted QAM is just a bug. The more we complain, the higher priority will get assigned by Tivo.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

MickeS said:


> That is the essence of my complaint too. There should be NO reason for us to be forced to get a CableCARD just to use the basic TiVo functionality on a channel that the TiVo already receives WITHOUT a CableCARD.


Out of curiousity, what do we expect is going to happen in 2009 when broadcast TV goes digital-only by FCC order? I'm assuming the FCC's regulation applies primarily to broadcast OTA stations, but is analog cable going disappear and be replaced by all-digital cable? If analog cable does go away, then are 'standard cable' channels going to be clear-QAM or will the cablecos be going to all-cablecard (at least for non-networks, which are mandated to be unencrypted) ?

At least by 2009 the cablecards should be debugged (I'm an optimist), the installers familiar with how to install them, and hopefully self-install permitted.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

smbaker said:


> Out of curiousity, what do we expect is going to happen in 2009 when broadcast TV goes digital-only by FCC order? I'm assuming the FCC's regulation applies primarily to broadcast OTA stations, but is analog cable going disappear and be replaced by all-digital cable? If analog cable does go away, then are 'standard cable' channels going to be clear-QAM or will the cablecos be going to all-cablecard (at least for non-networks, which are mandated to be unencrypted) ?
> 
> At least by 2009 the cablecards should be debugged (I'm an optimist), the installers familiar with how to install them, and hopefully self-install permitted.


Analog cable will definitely not be going away. Cable companies would love to go all digital (they love to get those "digital outlet fees") but those boxes aren't cheap. Plus, there's a lot of turmoil in the infrastructure right now. I wouldn't expect all digital to be the mainstream until 2015.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

What is clear from this threads many opinions is that the FCC needs to force the cable companies into using PSIP correctly on all the digital channels in their "Basic" package. At some point basic analog will disappear and it seems very reasonable that basic digital should work without a STB just like basic analog does (once someone has a TV with a QAM tuner).

The question on the table for TiVo is should they support clear QAM tuning now or not knowing that to support it now would mean manual channel mapping for many people? So far TiVo's answer is to not support it.

The pros and cons of this have been well addressed in this thread what I think TiVo owes everyone is to be honest about it. If they are not going to support clear QAM with manual mapping then they should honestly state that their Series 3 and TiVo HD DVRs only support digital cable when using cable cards and that clear QAM isn't currently supported.

Thanks,


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

SAH2 said:


> The remapping would not be a problem. I do "remote PC support" now
> 
> Where we are, Cox will not supply cable cards unless you upgrade your service about $40 a month more after everything is added in. This makes no financial sense just to get Tivo guide data for 4 channels.


Upgrade your service. Get the cards installed. Downgrade your service. Keep the cards and pay the monthly rental fee on them.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jblake said:


> Cable companies would love to go all digital (they love to get those "digital outlet fees") but those boxes aren't cheap.


It would also effectively eliminate "theft of service", at least for the channels that they are allowed to encrypt. I agree that they will likely be slow to roll-out all-digital due to the amount of work required on their part installing cable boxes and cablecards.

On the other hand, they can phase it in over time simply by migrating channels from analog to digital, thus 'encouraging' customers to upgrade.


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## chip_r (Apr 27, 2006)

smbaker said:


> On the other hand, they can phase it in over time simply by migrating channels from analog to digital, thus 'encouraging' customers to upgrade.


That's an interesting comment ... I had senior Comcast technican over at my house troubleshooting analog cable problems about 4 weeks ago and that's exactly what he said. Also according to the tech, about 70% of the customers in my area are still analog (i. e. potential higher revenue customers down the road).


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

clark_kent said:


> TiVo must LOVE all you guys that blindly defend TiVo, and conjure up reasons as to why they can not (some technical BS) or why they do not need to (some other BS) provide full TiVo functionality for ALL UNencrypted digital channels, WITHOUT a cableCard.


I don't think that those of us conjuring up reasons are saying they "can not." we are just provding several scenarios as to why they haven't. Some are technical, some are design, and some may just be related to priorities.


clark_kent said:


> ...
> And, apparently, Panasonic does not think that they will end up with a support nightmare by allowing customers to attach any label to any channel (they do provide a table of labels, but you can make up your own label, if you like).


Well, according to your decription it provides no guide data other than the current program. I happy that you can rename a digital channel, but I think that feature is probably there so you can name the analog channels.


clark_kent said:


> And, sooner or later, some of those units will have hard disk drives built-in, and some will probably even offer TVguide (or similar) program guide data WITHOUT crying that that you need a cableCard.


 Interesting. I have a Panasonic unit from 2003 that records analog to DVD or Hard Disk. Panasonic has not yet introduced an HD product for recording to a hard disk. Why is that?


> If that was the case, it was obviously very naive.


 In retrospect it may be naive, or it may have just been a bad decision that they currently regret. Or maybe at design time they really did think that everyone would want to be recording the Sopranos.


> The ONLY reason local HD network is on the cable, UNencrypted, is because its mandated that the cable company MUST do that. Otherwise, they would encrypt all HD programming in a microsecond!


 No, IF the OTA digital channels are carried on cable, they must be unencrypted. I'm pretty sure that the FCC, the stations, and the cable companies have not yet settled must-carry requirments for OTA digital.


> The networks got the message and from what I hear, there will be a slew of new network programs in HD come the fall season.


 If you're talking about the fall season, I suspect there won't be a significant number of new HD hours this season over last. New HD shows will be replacing other HD shows for the most part. NBC is purposely not stressing HD in the 8-9 time frame. SD reality shows are staying SD, for the most part. You will however start seeing more local & national news in HD. News junkies who must have HD will have to go cablecard to get CNNHD.


> I think theres a bunch of TiVo customers that are going to want to use TiVo on those UNencrypted local HD channels and be able to record those programs using the season pass.


 Could be. Tivo may be mulling that as we type.


> The bottom line is that the S3 and I suspect the THD do not work as they should:
> 
> First, the S3 lays goose eggs for digital channels numbers. My unit is not a single isolated case. I personally have had three S3s on the same cable source and they all lay eggs; some lay more eggs then others.


First time I recall seeing this particular comment. That is interesting. The theory that goose eggs result from poorly formed PSIP tables may have holes in it.


> And, (I think) that Ive read posts by other S3 owners reporting similar egg harvestings. I know that at lease one THD owner has posted that his unit also laid a bunch of goose eggs. This IS a TiVo problem. TiVo should acknowledge the problem and tell us when/how it will be resolved. Telling us that we must use a cableCard to fix this problem is not only false but also misleading, at best, but the misdirection is deceptive.


 I agree here, but their lawyers or marketing folk may be advising them otherwise.


> Second, for TiVo to tell us that we must use a cableCard to have full TiVo functionality for UNencrypted HD channels is also false and misleading at best, and the misdirection is again deceptive.


Actually, as it stands, it appears to be absolutely true, whether we like it or not!


> It is NOT the job of a cableCard to solve these two problems!


Unless Tivo, inc designed it that way on purpose (for better or worse).


> My interpretation of that statement from TiVo: OK, whats the big deal? I dont want encrypted channels and why would I want to record any encrypted channel that I dont receive?
> 
> My additional interpretation of that statement from TiVo: If it is NOT encrypted, Im entitled to full TiVo functionality!


No, the only additional interpretation is that you can watch and record unencrypted digital channels, but not that you get full Tivo functionality. If you think they should have been more specific in the manual about use without cablecards, I'll agree with you, but it's been a long time since I saw a manual for a consumer electronic product that answered every question that I had.


> in other words, full (normal) TiVo functionality (IS IMPLIED) for ALL UNENCRYPTED channels!


I'd love to say yes, but unless the cable companies publish the QAM channel numbers which the guide data is based on, its really not.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

jblake said:


> Analog cable will definitely not be going away. Cable companies would love to go all digital (they love to get those "digital outlet fees") but those boxes aren't cheap. Plus, there's a lot of turmoil in the infrastructure right now. I wouldn't expect all digital to be the mainstream until 2015.


Actually some cable companies WILL be going all digital in 2008.


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## jblake (Jan 24, 2002)

smbaker said:


> It would also effectively eliminate "theft of service", at least for the channels that they are allowed to encrypt. I agree that they will likely be slow to roll-out all-digital due to the amount of work required on their part installing cable boxes and cablecards.
> 
> On the other hand, they can phase it in over time simply by migrating channels from analog to digital, thus 'encouraging' customers to upgrade.


What I suspect will happen is they will at some point when the cable card stuff settles out start requiring set tops for all new customers, and any time you make a change/add service or otherwise have a tech come out, they'll "upgrade" you, even if you aren't getting anything above the basic tier. That way, through attrition and churn, they will get to a point that they can push it on the rest of their customers easier and cheaper.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

vstone said:


> Now we're really talking about the market for digital cable STB's, not all of which will be in the market for a DVR.


You're right: if we look at the market of people who cannot use antennas and who only want to receive local HD, not all of them want a DVR. But certainly many of them do...current estimates are that over 50% of U.S. households will have one by 2010 (up from 12% today). So perhaps only 50% of the above target market wants a DVR...that's still huge.

Another key point: for the above consumers who do want DVRs, there is currently *NO * option for them at all! They can't rent one from their cable company without upgrading to a full digital package. We're talking a huge captive audience...TiVo would literally have no competition there. This is low-hanging fruit. TiVo just has to step up.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> The question on the table for TiVo is should they support clear QAM tuning now or not knowing that to support it now would mean manual channel mapping for many people? So far TiVo's answer is to not support it.
> ...
> The pros and cons of this have been well addressed in this thread what I think TiVo owes everyone is to be honest about it. If they are not going to support clear QAM with manual mapping then they should honestly state that their Series 3 and TiVo HD DVRs only support digital cable when using cable cards and that clear QAM isn't currently supported.


IMO for OTA rebroadcast channels (which have PSIP virtual channel maps per FCC/CEA/NCTA agreement) most people will be able to benefit from *automatic* mapping. For the rest of basic cable besides OTA rebroadcast, like Home Shopping, Jewelry channel, CSPAN, etc. you may need to do manual mapping, but I think most people don't care too much about those. So the overall solution may require manual mapping if you want every channel in basic cable recorded, if you only care about the majors that have PSIP already, then you won't be exposed to manual mapping. I suspect almost all the people on this thread fall into this category. Further, if the FCC forced PSIP for all of basic cable, then everyone can enjoy automatic mapping.

TiVo has been honest about it. They said you need CableCARDs for digital cable.

What is at issue is many people don't feel this needs to be the case and we have seen competing products which offer mapping solutions and these products in many cases aren't even charging monthly service charges, so why shouldn't our ultra-advanced premium DVR do the same?

We are even willing to put our money where our mouth is and buy more units if this feature was present.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

smbaker said:


> It would also effectively eliminate "theft of service", at least for the channels that they are allowed to encrypt. I agree that they will likely be slow to roll-out all-digital due to the amount of work required on their part installing cable boxes and cablecards.
> 
> On the other hand, they can phase it in over time simply by migrating channels from analog to digital, thus 'encouraging' customers to upgrade.


I agree they will be migrating channels. They already did so in some test markets and recently for the entire Chicago market. Expanded basic went to digital-only.

There was already a plan to migrate to digital in place. There was 2 parts to the plan:
1) procure a relatively inexpensive ($75-$100) cable box so they could give 3-4 boxes per house where previously their budget was 1 included $300-$400 advanced cable box.
2) have this box delivered directly to the end-user and be user-installed.

The DCT-700 was the result of this planning. When I called in recently for the free DCT-700s they mailed the boxes to me with a self-install sheet. Of course the DCT-700 is no longer viable and the equivalent CableCARD version will have the cost of the box ($75-$100) + the cost of the CableCARD ($75-100) so that changes the plans a bit.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

sfhub said:


> For the rest of basic cable besides OTA rebroadcast, like Home Shopping, Jewelry channel, CSPAN, etc. you may need to do manual mapping


Those channels aren't digital. PSIP only applies to digital channels, which are only the local HD/digital rebroadcasted channels. TiVo correctly and automatically maps all analog channels today (i.e. Home Shopping, Jewelry channel, CSPAN, etc.) therefore no one has to do "manual mapping" for them.

_Edit: Sorry, I didn't understand that sfhub was referring to the possibility of digital simulcasts of said channels._


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Saxion said:


> Those channels aren't digital. PSIP only applies to digital channels, which are only the local HD/digital rebroadcasted channels. TiVo correctly and automatically maps all analog channels today (i.e. Home Shopping, Jewelry channel, CSPAN, etc.) therefore no one has to do "manual mapping" for them.


 There are unencrypted digital simulcast versions of these channels which have no PSIP information in my headend. In fact none of the digital simulcast channels have PSIP information for my headend including the network locals.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

moyekj said:


> There are unencrypted digital simulcast versions of these channels which have no PSIP information in my headend. In fact none of the digital simulcast channels have PSIP information for my headend including the network locals.


Interesting. I hadn't considered the fairly obvious case that the ATSC A/65C (implemented as law by reference) might not require populating the CVCT table with other than OTA channels. Back to the books.

The FCC requires the basic tier (OTA) unencrypted. Most cable systems add local access channels, shopping channels, and maybe ESPN to the mix. The next tier is usually the basic cable tier, which includes a bunch of cable channels delivered to your analog cable ready TV. These two are usually differentiated by a blocking filter on the coax coming into your premises.

Theoretically cable companies could have two clear QAM tiers also differentiated by a blocking filter, but I don't see it. I presume will will have the basic tier (unadvertised), basic digital, expanded digital, plus a whole slew of specialty tiers (MLB, etc.).


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Saxion said:


> Those channels aren't digital. PSIP only applies to digital channels, which are only the local HD/digital rebroadcasted channels. TiVo correctly and automatically maps all analog channels today (i.e. Home Shopping, Jewelry channel, CSPAN, etc.) therefore no one has to do "manual mapping" for them.


Those channels may not be digital on *your* cable network, but they are on mine. They are part of ADS, analog digital simulcast, which is a transition state to dropping analog completely. I'm addressing both the current and potential future look of cable (if it moves to all digital)


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

vstone said:


> The FCC requires the basic tier (OTA) unencrypted. Most cable systems add local access channels, shopping channels, and maybe ESPN to the mix. The next tier is usually the basic cable tier, which includes a bunch of cable channels delivered to your analog cable ready TV. These two are usually differentiated by a blocking filter on the coax coming into your premises.
> 
> Theoretically cable companies could have two clear QAM tiers also differentiated by a blocking filter, but I don't see it. I presume will will have the basic tier (unadvertised), basic digital, expanded digital, plus a whole slew of specialty tiers (MLB, etc.).


Just so there is no confusion I think different cable companies use slightly different terms to describe their offerings. Mine has the following

limited basic (includes "limited basic high definition - HD OTA" and "digital broadcast - SD OTA")
expanded basic
enhanced cable (most minimal digital package, limited basic + 1 channel from digital classic)
digital classic (what most people consider basic digital)
various other packages with more digital channels

Your cable provider looks like they use the following terms
basic tier
basic cable tier
basic digital? (are these proposed or actual tiers your cable company has)
expanded digital? (are these proposed or actual tiers your cable company has)

The reason I mention this is because until you listed out the tiers, if you had mentioned basic cable tier, I would have assumed that was the same as basic tier and this could have led to confusing replies.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

sfhub said:


> Those channels may not be digital on *your* cable network, but they are on mine. They are part of ADS, analog digital simulcast, which is a transition state to dropping analog completely. I'm addressing both the current and potential future look of cable (if it moves to all digital)


Thanks, I didn't understand that. You and moyekj make a good point: what to do with digital channels above and beyond the local broadcast channels, that might potentially be carried in the "limited basic" tier. I don't think many people really care that much about them, but market forces should encourage cable companies to assign them some channel number via PSIP...after all, I believe most of these are shopping channels. The cable company has a direct financial interest in making them as easy to find & tune as possible.

Of course, having TiVo guide data on things like shopping channels, CSPAN, and community access/local government channels, is of dubious value.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

PSIP is sent on the channel its remapping so if the QAM channel is moved the receiver will no longer find it without rescanning.



Saxion said:


> Those channels aren't digital. PSIP only applies to digital channels, which are only the local HD/digital rebroadcasted channels.


Actually PSIP does support providing guide data for analog channels, my PBS includes guide data on their digital signal for their analog channel but almost nothing uses it or supports it.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Just for fun, I just went through all the digital channels my TiVo Series 3 picks up (I don't have CableCARDs).

Turns out I receive 25 digital channels "in the clear", more than I thought.

Most of those are useless to me, but two of them are not. They are OTA channels that my antenna does not pick up (A PBS station and the CW), and it would be nice to be able to schedule shows on those channels.

The only HD channels that are in the clear for me are the networks. The rest of the channels are 4 PBS channels (that I can receive OTA), CSPAN, CSPAN2, 3 shopping channels including QVC, one "local origination" channel, 2 Spanish language channels, and SD versions of the HD channels (why do they have these?).

So even though these aren't "high value channels" to me (except QVC and the two aforementioned OTA channels I can't get with the antenna), I must say I was a bit surprised that there were as many as 20 unique channels broadcast digitally in clear QAM. I think TiVo needs to get on the ball here...


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

sfhub said:


> Just so there is no confusion I think different cable companies use slightly different terms to describe their offerings. Mine has the following
> 
> limited basic (includes "limited basic high definition - HD OTA" and "digital broadcast - SD OTA")
> expanded basic
> ...


I use the term basic tier because that what the CFR talks about. My current cable company (Comcast) actually calls it the broadcast basic. More advanced tiers are expanded basic, digital plus, digital basic, etc TWC-SC uses broadcast tier, cable tier, digital tier, etc. I have made several posts in various threads trying to differentiate between what are generally two analog tiers. Some folks are talking about wanting just the OTA stuff (basic tier/broadcast tier) and others seem to be assuming that this includes TNT, et al.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

MickeS said:


> They are OTA channels that my antenna does not pick up (A PBS station and the CW


That's a great example of the value of clear QAM reception over cable...many people can pick up only _some _ of their local HD channels using an antenna. My market (San Diego) is a great example...we have 3 transmitter locations, spaced very far apart at the perimeter of the city. That means that a lot of people live very close to one antenna, but far from the others. http://www.antennaweb.org is a great place to gauge your reception; it will tell you how far away your address is from each channel's transmitter, and what kind of antenna you'll need.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

My basic tier (limited basic) includes ADS discovery channel SD (but does not include discovery HD)


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

QAM mapping would also be a major selling point for me. Based on the number of views this thread has, I would figure that I am not alone...


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## Koan (Jan 8, 2002)

frantishak said:


> The only way for us to get noticed is to email Tivo about it every month (or every week!). As far as I am concern, the fact that there is no guide data for Unencrypted QAM is just a bug. The more we complain, the higher priority will get assigned by Tivo.


I couldn't find an email address on Tivo's site, but their new feature request form is here.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Koan said:


> I couldn't find an email address on Tivo's site, but their new feature request form is here.


Thanks!

I submitted a request for this there.


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## yourstoall (Jul 11, 2003)

I have a cable box, Tivo Box and the tv. All are hooked up. When I turn on the tv is has snow and states channel 3. I need to change the channel on the tv to AV-1 manually before I receive reception. Please advise. Thank you


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

yourstoall said:


> I have a cable box, Tivo Box and the tv. All are hooked up. When I turn on the tv is has snow and states channel 3. I need to change the channel on the tv to AV-1 manually before I receive reception. Please advise. Thank you


From the Urban Dictionary:



> Threadjacking
> Threadjacking (or threadjack) is often used in forums to describe the action of a user posting a response in an attempt to change the subject or intention of the original thread.
> 
> Origin?
> threadjack v. thread-jack (n. and v.), threadjacker [ < thread and hijack. Twuz I, the original Threadjacker A.K.A. SoCal_Dan- who coined this phrase on www.boatertalk.com] To move a thread away from the original topic by bringing up another, which may or may not have any relation or bearing to the original. Example: "The thread was about apples, and you begin talking about oranges. Soon everyone else begins talking about oranges. You threadjacked this."


Your Tivo sounds like it is connected to the TV using composite (or s-video) connections. If so, this is the way it should work.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

yourstoall said:


> I have a cable box, Tivo Box and the tv. All are hooked up. When I turn on the tv is has snow and states channel 3. I need to change the channel on the tv to AV-1 manually before I receive reception. Please advise. Thank you


"Hooked up" really doesn't tell us much.

Sounds like you have the TV coax input connected to the coax output of the cable box. When I had a non DVR HD cable box (some SA model) the coax output was blocked when the cable box was on.

I'm assumming that your Tivo box, cable box , and TV are HD and you have at least one splitter.

If your TV has an output coax to support a cable box (as mine does) take one outpit of the splitter and feed it to the TV. Use the TV coax out to feed the cable box. Take the other output of the splitter to the Tivo.

If your TV doesn't have an output coax, then you need either two splitters or a three way splitter

As jrm01 indicates, this may be an Tivo HD question, but not the one being discussed.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I rarely look at my bills, but I just noticed that basic cable for me has doubled in price. It used to be $9.95, now it's $19.95. That's just the "lifeline" cable.

I wonder if they did that because they are broadcasting the digital versions of those channels there now too.

TiVo needs to get working on incorporating unencrypted digital channels into the guide, even without CableCARDs, so I can get what I pay for - both from TiVo AND Cox.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

MickeS said:


> I rarely look at my bills, but I just noticed that basic cable for me has doubled in price. It used to be $9.95, now it's $19.95. That's just the "lifeline" cable.


Wow, that's terrible. My guess is they recently applied for and were granted a status of "subject to effective competition" by the FCC, which removes the right of your local franchise board to regulate the rate of "lifeline" cable service. Welcome to the brave new world of deregulation...

With cable slapping its customers in the face right and left, seems they are ripe for trouncing by phone companies/fiber-to-the-home...


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