# Threads that asking for Closed Caption in TiVoToGo



## jushen1 (Sep 19, 2004)

Here I compile the threads on the forum asking for the support of Closed Caption ( CC ) in TiVoToGo (TiVo2Go, TTG ...)

Search 1, Search 2.

Frankly speaking, I am quite disappointed by the fact that the released TTG is lacking of this important feature. It's hard to believe that all the developers at TiVo, and all the beta testers missed out this feature to let the end consumers find out by themselves as a bonus surprise. 

A full solution on this issue might be complicated, difficult, or involved, that I don't know; but without a word from TiVo regarding this issue is not very satisfying. They at least had informed Mac users that there wouldn't be Mac support immediately in the first release of TTG .... 

What makes it worse is that, just now I was trying to write an email to TiVo, and only found out that they don't have an email support. Guess I will rely on either TIVoBill here to forward my comments, or make a phone call myself next week.


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## TiVoBill (Jun 8, 2002)

jushen1,

My understanding is that CC data _is_ stored in the video files transfered using the TiVoToGo software. The problem is that there is no standard for where the CC data is to be stored in an MPEG2 file, so the codecs that display MPEG2 video vary widely in where they look for the CC data. Because of this, some (perhaps many of them) will not be able to display the CC data. It would be helpful if any of the forum participants can chime in on which codecs are and are not able to display CC data on a program transferred using TiVoToGo.


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## HTH (Aug 28, 2000)

In DVD authoring, I find that software requires that for closed captioning the user provide a "Line 21" file containing the CC data. And it can only be present on Region 1 disks. Some Region 1 DVD players don't even support Line 21 closed captions on playback. From what research I've been able to do so far, it goes in the MPEG-2 stream in "user data" fields.

MacCaption, a program that can generate line 21 data on a Mac for DVD mastering, costs from $3,995 to $5,995 depending on the feature set, so even if you could get TiVoVBI to generate the data with timecodes, the software needed to turn it into line 21 data for real closed captions on a DVD isn't worth the expense for non-studios, who tend to have a legal mandate and the budget for it.

I've yet to see a DVD player on a computer that displays them, but I haven't done any real testing of it. I wouldn't know of any codecs that would open them.


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

In a similar vein, as far as I know, WMP 9 and 10 require external SAMI (Synchronized Accessible Media Interchange) files to do closed captioning if you want to play multimedia files rather than the TV data stream :

"SAMI files are text files that have an .smi or .sami file name extension. They contain the text strings used for synchronized closed captions, subtitles, and audio descriptions. They also specify the timing parameters used by the Windows Media Player control to synchronize closed caption text with audio or video content. When a digital media file reaches a time designated in the SAMI file, the text changes accordingly in the closed caption display area of the Web page."

"SAMI files exist independently from digital media files and do not rely on a specific video or audio format to function. Since the files are separate, the Windows Media Player control will locate, parse, synchronize, and render each file on the client's computer. This provides for added flexibility and functionality because it allows for the editing of individual SAMI files, the incorporation of the SAMI file with different digital media formats, and the storage of SAMI files on different server locations."

I don't see anything in the Tivo DirectShow filter graph that is capable of extracting the data from the MPEG file and converting it to the required SAMI stream.


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## posicat (Jan 20, 2005)

Closed caption when sent via broadcast is in the blank area above the picture (as white dashes on a black background). I did notice on the .tivo files, that at least part of this blank area is visable, and appears to have the blinking white dashes that the CC data is stored in. I can't tell for sure if it is all there, because I don't know more about the CC format, I'm just the bearer of trivia.


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## dah31 (Aug 17, 2001)

TiVoBill said:


> jushen1,
> 
> My understanding is that CC data _is_ stored in the video files transfered using the TiVoToGo software. The problem is that there is no standard for where the CC data is to be stored in an MPEG2 file, so the codecs that display MPEG2 video vary widely in where they look for the CC data.


Yup. DVD, SVCD, TiVo, and ATSC all have their own `standards' for encoding CC data. (Standards---so many to choose from!)

The relevant ones look something like this:

TiVo stores CC data in the user data area of each MPEG picture (frame), with tag byte 0xcc (field 1?) or 0xbb (field 2?), a length byte (0x02), and the actual data (including parity bit). Source: foo.tivo file recorded and transferred a few minutes ago.

DVD stores CC data in the user data area of the GOP, like so:

```
header: 0x43 0x43 0x01 0xf8
length: 7 bits (high order bit indicates whether field 1 or field 2 comes first
  (I think; I don't believe I have a DVD with anything in field 2.
  Should try making one, I suppose.)
[i]length[/i] packets of data:
  0xff and two bytes of CC data
The fields appear to alternate.
```
Source: a commercial DVD (can you spot it? ;-) .

Sorry if that's not very clear, but I can provide code to illustrate. Output looks like so:

```
$ ./find_pictures </var/tmp/vts_01_\([0xE0]_Video_NTSC_720x480\)_1.m2v\
>  | head -n176 | tail +146         
0xb8 (GOP)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0x43 0x43 0x01 0xf8 (DVD closed captions):
            0xff 0x45 0x20 (E )            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0xd3 0x45 (SE)            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0xc1 0x4c (AL)            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0x20 0x4f ( O)            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0x46 0x20 (F )            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0x52 0xc1 (RA)            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0xd3 0xd3 (SS)            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0x49 0x4c (IL)            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0x4c 0x4f (LO)            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0xce 0xae (N.)            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0x94 0x2c (.,)            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0x94 0x2c (.,)            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
            0xff 0x94 0x2f (./)            0xfe 0x00 0x00 (..)
0x00   (picture: I)
0x00   (picture: P)
0x00   (picture: B)
0x00   (picture: B)
0x00   (picture: P)
0x00   (picture: B)
0x00   (picture: B)
0x00   (picture: P)
0x00   (picture: B)
0x00   (picture: B)
0x00   (picture: P)
0x00   (picture: B)
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb8 (GOP)
0xb2   (user_data:
```


```
[email protected]:~/stl2cc$ ./find_pictures </var/tmp/Faking\ It\ -\ \'\'Choir\ Girl\
> \ to\ Rock\ Chick\'\'\ \(Recorded\ Feb\ 27,\ 2005,\ BBCA\).TiVo\
> | head -n 1847 | tail -n165
0xb8 (GOP)
0x00   (picture: I)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x80 0x80 (..))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x20 0xb5 ( 5))
         type 0x00
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0x47, length(?) 0x41)
         type 0x39, length(?) 0x34)
         type 0x03, length(?) 0x42)
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x80 0x80 (..))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xba 0x20 (: ))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x80 0x80 (..))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x45 0xd0 (EP))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: P)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x80 0x80 (..))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xae 0x20 (. ))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x80 0x80 (..))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x32 0x20 (2 ))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x80 0x80 (..))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x43 0xc8 (CH))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: P)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x80 0x80 (..))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x4f 0x49 (OI))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x80 0x80 (..))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x8f 0xc1 (.A))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x80 0x80 (..))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x01 0x85 (..))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: P)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x94 0x20 (. ))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xc8 0x45 (HE))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x94 0xd0 (.P))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x8f 0x5e (.^))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x49 0x20 (I ))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x85 0x02 (..))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: P)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x54 0xc8 (TH))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xc2 0xc2 (BB))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x49 0xce (IN))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x43 0x45 (CE))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xcb 0x20 (K ))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x8f 0x5e (.^))
         type 0x00
0xb8 (GOP)
0x00   (picture: I)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x49 0xa7 (I'))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x85 0x01 (..))
         type 0x00
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0x47, length(?) 0x41)
         type 0x39, length(?) 0x34)
         type 0x03, length(?) 0x42)
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xc4 0x20 (D ))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xc2 0xc2 (BB))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x4a 0x4f (JO))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x43 0x80 (C.))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: P)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x49 0xce (IN))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x8f 0xa4 (.$))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x20 0x54 ( T))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x01 0x02 (..))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xc8 0x49 (HI))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x40 0xc1 (@A))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: P)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xd3 0x20 (S ))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xea 0x40 ([email protected]))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x43 0x4c (CL))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x8f 0x43 (.C))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xd5 0xc2 (UB))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x01 0x85 (..))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: P)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x20 0xd3 ( S))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xc8 0x45 (HE))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x45 0xd6 (EV))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x8f 0x5e (.^))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x45 0xce (EN))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x01 0x83 (..))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: P)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x94 0xf4 (.t))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x46 0xc1 (FA))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x49 0x46 (IF))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xcb 0x49 (KI))
         type 0x00
0x00   (picture: B)
0xb2   (user_data:
         type 0xcc (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0x20 0x54 ( T))
         type 0xbb (TiVo closed captions), length 0x02, payload 0xce 0xc7 (NG))
         type 0x00
0xb8 (GOP)
0x00   (picture: I)
0xb2   (user_data:
```



> Because of this, some (perhaps many of them) will not be able to display the CC data. It would be helpful if any of the forum participants can chime in on which codecs are and are not able to display CC data on a program transferred using TiVoToGo.


Perhaps the CC data could be transcoded from TiVo-style to DVD-style within the TiVo DirectShow Source Filter?


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## TiVoBill (Jun 8, 2002)

dah31 said:


> Perhaps the CC data could be transcoded from TiVo-style to DVD-style within the TiVo DirectShow Source Filter?


That is the current line of investigation that the TiVo Desktop development folks are following. They hope to be able to provide the CC data through the DirectShow filter in the future, which would alow it be displayed in any program that can use DirectShow filters.


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

dah31 said:


> TiVo stores CC data in the user data area of each MPEG picture (frame), with tag byte 0xcc (field 1?) or 0xbb (field 2?), a length byte (0x02), and the actual data (including parity bit). Source: foo.tivo file recorded and transferred a few minutes ago.


Thank You. This was the final final key I needed to make complete sense of the program stream and CC data with respect to the .tivo file.

On a side note I am inclined to support/pursue a SAMI solution rather than the DVD option. Microsoft's SAMI (Synchronized Accessible Media Interchange) standard will allow captioning of any digital multimedia file. SAMI is based on HTML, and is expected to include everything currently in EIA-608 (Line 21 analog TV CC) and EIA-708 ( HDTV and DTV CC ). Additionally, the Society of Motion Picture/Television Engineers (SMPTE) is finalizing a standard for the interchange of captions between different systems. It appears at this time that the SAMI format will also be the basis of this SMPTE standard.

If the Tivo CC data can converted into the SAMI format, developers will have a single multimedia standard to work with and can likely be encouraged to support this capability in a wide range of products. In the meantime, SAMI is already supported in WMP. As soon as SAMI files can be created from a .tivo file, they can be played back on the computer with captioning  not all the way to the goal, but a good first step.


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

dah31 said:


> TiVo stores CC data in the user data area of each MPEG picture (frame), with tag byte 0xcc (field 1?) or 0xbb (field 2?), a length byte (0x02), and the actual data (including parity bit). Source: foo.tivo file recorded and transferred a few minutes ago.


A follow up: I have been able to incorporate this information into some C++ code I had already started. The result was successful. I now can process a 30 minute best quality .tivo file and extract the CC data to a SAMI file in about 30  45 seconds. Viewing with WMP is still a little rough but the issues are text visibility and synchronization not with getting the process to work. These constitute user preference tuning issues, SAMI style settings, etc. and should be fairly straightforward to work out.

Provided the powers that be dont take exception, I will try to make an extraction utility available to anyone that wants it a soon as I am comfortable with the code stability and have worked out a distribution mechanism. This path does not rely on Codecs. It feeds the CC data in through a separate WMP parser so it should work with any Codec or decoder that works with a .tivo file.

For anyone that might be inclined to express concern about what I am doing and taking about in this forum: to accomplish this, I am parsing the program stream to extract the presentation time stamps from the GOP and frame headers, I also have to extract the closed captioning text and CC control codes from the user data. That is all. In particular, I am not parsing audio packets, video slices or macroblocks. As a result, the encryption protecting the copyrighted content is safe and uncompromised.


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## smithcferg (Mar 28, 2003)

Thanks so much for your work in decoding the SAMI file! I am very interested in getting extraction utility so my wife can "hear" the Tivotogo, otherwise it is Tivonogo for her, smile.

Another fellow developed has a set of tools called the scctools for working with closed captions. His tools are supposed to work successfully at decoding ReplayTV mpeg files. I tried using them on the Tivo mpeg and managed to get parts of the captions with time code, but not all of them, and not in order. Another program that allows for manipulating subtitles such as sami files is Subtitle workshop. This program also allows for converting from Sami to many other file formats.

Both are open to public use, thanks to the generosity of the authors.

Would also be nice if we could have a utility for directly "burning" Tivotogo to DVD and still get closed captions.

Thanks to all those that are working on making this a reality, hopefully a painless one, smile.

Sincerely,
smithcferg


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## smithcferg (Mar 28, 2003)

Here is a way that you can ask for this feature, using the additionall feature request form:
http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

smithcferg said:


> Thanks so much for your work in decoding the SAMI file! I am very interested in getting extraction utility so my wife can "hear" the Tivotogo, otherwise it is Tivonogo for her, smile.


If you want to try to work with what I have, I think it is far enough along that it is safe to do so. I still have some issues with responsiveness of the UI during the closed caption extraction which makes it hard to stop until it finishes the files you have selected. In a few instances, some of the captioning control codes arent being handled correctly but the program is basically working. I dont use closed captioning very much so I dont have a good feel for all of the usability nuances: visibility, synchronization, etc. Additionally, since I developed it, it works well for me and I have no installation/removal problems  I dont know if that will hold for anyone else

I intend to make the program available to those that want it as freeware and would appreciate any comments people that do use closed captioning a lot have to make about it.

The processing of closed captioning information takes place in parallel with the audio and video processing so you must have .tivo playback working on your computer with Windows Media Player 9 or 10. The closed captioning will neither improve nor degrade the current playback experience. This version of the program has no applicability to the burning and playback of DVDs. Maybe later, but not now.

If you want to help, you can download the program installer from my web page : http://shinnyo.com/t2sami/default.htm. I cant recommend wholesale downloading at this time. The program is not ready for mass distribution and it will ONLY be of use to people that want to watch closed captioning with Windows Media Player.

I believe closed captioning is important and would appreciate the assistance of other who believe the same and have experience I lack. Please bring any comments or opinions back to this forum for open discussion.

Thanks.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

That is most excellent work. My (soon to be) sister-in-law is near-deaf and she will appreciate your efforts immensely. If we wanted to send you some token of appreciation, would you accept some form of donation(cash via paypal or gifts from amazon wishlist, etc)? I fully realize you're developing in your spare time, and that a donation wouldn't entitle somone to any special support or consideration, I just think it would be a nice way to say thank you.


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

gonzotek said:


> That is most excellent work. My (soon to be) sister-in-law is near-deaf and she will appreciate your efforts immensely. If we wanted to send you some token of appreciation, would you accept some form of donation(cash via paypal or gifts from amazon wishlist, etc)? I fully realize you're developing in your spare time, and that a donation wouldn't entitle somone to any special support or consideration, I just think it would be a nice way to say thank you.


Thank you for the sentiment. It is always rewarding when one's efforts are acknowledged but mixing material things with something that (for practical reasons if no other) has to remain a gift gets messy. So take it in the spirit given : a contribution I happen to be able to make to the TiVo community.


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## smithcferg (Mar 28, 2003)

Wow! This is huge. I tried it out just now on a sample ten minute file and it worked flawlessly. I did enable the wmp player 9 as per instructions, don't know yet why the captions didn't play (I do have an extra captioning plug-in installed in the wmp which might have caused problems.) When I tried it in another free-for-use movie player, the subtitles showed up beautifully. 

You have done a great service for the deaf community, even more awesome, you are working on improving it even more. 

Tivotogo for all!

Thanks again.

Sincerely,
smithcferg


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

jmemmott said:


> Thank you for the sentiment. It is always rewarding when one's efforts are acknowledged but mixing material things with something that (for practical reasons if no other) has to remain a gift gets messy. So take it in the spirit given : a contribution I happen to be able to make to the TiVo community.


You are truly one of the most generous people I've ever encountered online or offline. Thank you very, very much.


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## ezrec (Jan 20, 2005)

Could you please post the source code to your utility?

I'd like to port it to Linux/MacOS X.


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## mstylady2 (Feb 13, 2005)

Thanks so much for your time and efforts to make this accessible to the hard of hearing/deaf community. 

i wanted to make sure i've done everything correctly; i'm unable to see the captions. i downloaded the program and followed the directions. turned on closed captioning on WMP10 as well, but not getting any captioning (programs are definitely captioned, "Oprah Winfrey"). Am i missing something?

Thanks!


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

mstylady2 said:


> i wanted to make sure i've done everything correctly; i'm unable to see the captions. i downloaded the program and followed the directions. turned on closed captioning on WMP10 as well, but not getting any captioning (programs are definitely captioned, "Oprah Winfrey"). Am i missing something?


To narrow it down, look in the directory with your .tivo files after you run the conversion program. (The Tivo Desktop has a directory icon at the bottom of the "Now Playing" window that will show you where this is and open the directory in a new window. For every .tivo file you converted, there should be a matching .smi file with the same basic file name. These are just text files - open one in WordPad ( Right click, Open With..., Choose Program..., WordPad ). It should be a long file made up mostly of lines like the following :

<SYNC Start=66598>

THAT WILL NOT GIVE THEM A 
<SYNC Start=68233>

MAJORITY IN THE TRANSITIONAL
<SYNC Start=70936>

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, IT DOES GIVE 
<SYNC Start=72370>

THEM A GREAT DEAL OF POWER IN 
<SYNC Start=73538>

DETERMINING THE NEXT GOVERNMENT 
<SYNC Start=74339>

AND WHO WILL RUN THE

If you are getting these files, you have extracted the CC text from the .tivo files and we need to focus on WMP 10 and why it isn't showing it to you. If you aren't getting these files, we need to look at what is happening with my program.

Let me know which it is and we will try to go from there.


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## mstylady2 (Feb 13, 2005)

jmemmott,

when opening the directory on tivo desktop, i see only four files

Two Real Player
Two WMP

both with the Oprah Winfrey recording noted.

the WMP indicates "movie clip"
the Real Player indicates "SMIL Document"

I have not used the Real Player to playback any TiVo recordings.

Let me know what you think it may be.

Thanks,
Juanita


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

mstylady2 said:


> the Real Player indicates "SMIL Document"


The RealMedia/SIML document issue is just confusion on the part Windows. It shouldn't cause any problems : SMIL is another markup language for authoring accessible multimedia presentations. Current versions of the Quicktime Player and the RealMedia Player support SMIL. SAMI is similar to SMIL, but was developed by Microsoft and is supported by Microsoft products. This can create confusion because SMIL files and SAMI files may both use the same (*.smi) extension.

It does mean that you are processing the .tivo files to create sami files but there is a problem with WMP interpreting the contents of the sami file. I think I know the cause but it is too messy to talk you though a fix so you will need to wait until I post a new copy of the program to my website. (one of the reasons I indicated that this isn't yet ready for wide distribution - you are all guinea pigs right now). I will let you know when it is ready.


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## mstylady2 (Feb 13, 2005)

Thanks for the follow-up.

I'd rather wait anyway; I'm not technical at all, so I need a "download it and run it" kind of thing. Thanks again for your efforts!


Juanita


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## bizi21 (Dec 2, 2004)

Thank you for your efforts to solve the closed captioning problem with TiVo transfers. I tried your program, but in looking at the *.smi file there is nothing past header info. Tried on two different transfers - same result. Will await future attempts. B


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

I just want to let you know that there is a newer version available. It cleans up UI issues and some formatting within the SAMI text. It also adds information on how to playback closed caption video in DirectShow media players other than Windows Media player. I use Zoom Player because it has been a staple in the HTPC (Home Theater PC) world for a long time.

Notable outstanding issues: I still haven't had time to clean up all of the closed caption control codes so embedded special characters can be an issue and special formatting can produce duplicated characters and other anomolies in the text : "I WANTED HIMIM TO O GO B BECAUSE IT ". Finally, the file format for TiVo files downloaded through the Tivo Desktop and those downloaded by other means (web browser, javaHMO) are slightly different. At this time, I only support the format created by the Tivo Desktop. If you use these other mechanism, the program won't find any CC information inside the file even though it is there: http://shinnyo.com/t2sami


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## Das Achteck (Mar 9, 2005)

Like bizi21, I am getting nothing in the file past the headers. That is so for 1.0012 as well as 1.0011.

I also use Zoom, but VSFilter 2.35 gave me some problems with Matroska so I dropped back to 2.34.


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

Das Achteck said:


> Like bizi21, I am getting nothing in the file past the headers. That is so for 1.0012 as well as 1.0011.
> 
> I also use Zoom, but VSFilter 2.35 gave me some problems with Matroska so I dropped back to 2.34.


If you have time to help me track this down, I would like to work from a known starting point. Try recording something like the half hour nightly news (NBC unless you have another preference) at Basic quality. That gives us a smaller file ( around 1GB) with know captioning content.

After you transfer it to the PC create a new directory off of the root : say C:\t2sami and copy the .tivo file into it while you are logged in as the account we will use to do the extraction. (C:\t2sami\NBC Nightly News (Recorded Mar 10, 2005, KSBW).TiVo ). Then try the conversion process.

I am trying to split the problem so I can get a handle on it. If you still can't extract the captions, I may need to get a copy of this file from you. We can work out the details offline (PM) but for the public record: the file will be encrypted and I do NOT want any information on your MAK. This should keep us within both the spirit and letter of the Tivo TOS.

If you don't have the time to work with me, let me know and we will find someone else in the forum with the same problem.

Thanks...


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## Das Achteck (Mar 9, 2005)

jmemmott said:


> .
> 
> If you don't have the time to work with me, let me know and we will find someone else in the forum with the same problem.
> 
> Thanks...


I have a full boat tonight - including Rather's last show. So I'll use that and get back to you tomorrow.

/EDIT

Still nothing past the headers. PM sent.


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## NYJetPhan (Mar 25, 2005)

Thanks Jmemmot for this great feature, its actually quite dissappointing that a user has to figure these things out. I do not use Media Player for my TiVo files, I have a Media Center PC which allows me to watch these shows as well as use my remote for FF, RR Pause and skip ahead...I could not use MP, major Codecs issues that were not cleared up even after a "recommended" purchase. I cannot get captions to display on Media Center using your program, they are there with MP though, I can just barely see them where they get cut off (thats my MP issue). Can you or anybody help me get these captions to show on Media Center? Any show I record with Media Center has and shows captions, so I know I am configured correctly in that regard. I can offer you any kind of outside help, I am deaf and home 24/7...let me know and THANKS A MILLION!!


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

NYJetPhan said:


> Thanks Jmemmot for this great feature, its actually quite dissappointing that a user has to figure these things out. I do not use Media Player for my TiVo files, I have a Media Center PC which allows me to watch these shows as well as use my remote for FF, RR Pause and skip ahead...I could not use MP, major Codecs issues that were not cleared up even after a "recommended" purchase. I cannot get captions to display on Media Center using your program, they are there with MP though, I can just barely see them where they get cut off (thats my MP issue). Can you or anybody help me get these captions to show on Media Center? Any show I record with Media Center has and shows captions, so I know I am configured correctly in that regard. I can offer you any kind of outside help, I am deaf and home 24/7...let me know and THANKS A MILLION!!


I do not have access to a MC so I cannot help much with that. Since positioning is an issue in WMP, my initial suggestion for that would to be to switch from the captioning built into WMP to the VobSub VSFilter I mention on my site: http://shinnyo.com/t2sami. On the site, I focus on its use in other DirectShow players but it will work with WMP just as well. It has been used longer and with a greater variety of players than the WMP captioning. It gives you better control over position, visibility, etc. of the captions. Install it and bring up the control interface while a movie is playing (ALT+"S") to make adjustments.

My personal best solution is not WMP. I use that as my baseline because it is consistent with Tivos recommendations. I use Zoom Player (http://www.inmatrix.com) with the VobSub VSFilter. I have no personal stock in Zoom Player except as a long time user but I can use it to tame the mixture of conflicting DirectShow filters and codecs that come from installing multiple DVD burner packages, video cards, capture cards, etc. It gives me a single, simple viewing interface for everything from DVDs to Divx to Tivo files without the need to continually tune the DirectShow filter merit or even leave the viewer. VSFilter gives me similar control over the captioning.


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## NYJetPhan (Mar 25, 2005)

Well, thanks for your help, I'll give the Zoom player a shot. Media Center is really a great PC, basically a DVR. If I had cable in this room I'd have a box here and no need for TTG, I'd just record here instead. But, we moved and there is no cable in this room...I did try that filter, and it was being used by my MP, but my picture was still bad. My problem was, and still is that my picture is cut off on all 4 sides. Captions where only visible if there were 2 (or would it be 3?) lines showing, then the top line would be visible. Thanks again, and great job.


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

If you are using another player, you can use the Alt + "S" key combination to bring up the VOBSUB interface. If you are using WMP, it often takes over the keyboard interface so you need to look in the system tray for the DirectVobSub icon (big green arrow on my system) while the movie is playing. Double click will open it. 

On the main tab, click the "Text Settings" button. In "Screen Alignment & Margins", change the bottom margin (defaults to 20 or 30 if I remember correctly). Make it 100 for example. That will move the captioning up the screen Your picture will still be cut off but the captions should be visible. Remember to "Apply" the results to make it permanent.


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## NYJetPhan (Mar 25, 2005)

HTH said:


> I've yet to see a DVD player on a computer that displays them, but I haven't done any real testing of it. I wouldn't know of any codecs that would open them.


Are you talking about Closed Captions on a PC DVD Player? 99% of all DVDs support either CC or Subtitles with a majority supporting both.I often have to turn off captions because I prefer subtitles. Every PC with DVD-Rom I've ever had supported CC. Or are you speaking of _BURNING Captions_ onto DVD? I am probably one of the few people that has never copied a DVD before, but I would imagine that the captioning signal would be copied, after all, a VCR does it.


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## groggle (Mar 19, 2005)

Take it from the deaf: all DVDs that have subtitles and captions that are displayable on PCs. I do it all the time. They also burn nicely from their source DVDs to burned DVDs. The missing captions in TiVoToGo are an omission. Just like working codecs for proper sound playback.


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## NYJetPhan (Mar 25, 2005)

I have actually fixed my playback problem on WMP, it was an obscure setting that I had to change, not all of the recommended Codecs I purchased, still no captions until I installed the filter. Finally I have this working, been pulling my hair out since early February when I first got TTG. Now lets see if we can get this to work on DVDs now...TiVo, are you listening?


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## groggle (Mar 19, 2005)

Well, dont leave us hanging, what's the obscure setting!


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## NYJetPhan (Mar 25, 2005)

Here is the link to my solution from the Support Forums. This may pertain to a host of people or possibly none:

http://forums.tivo.com/pe/action/forums/displaysinglethread?rootPostID=10158838&returnExpertiseCode=


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## curtiser (Mar 24, 2005)

Let me see if I understand the process correctly:

I download the T2SAMI program.

I run the T2SAMI program and select the programs I want to convert and hit START. When it finishes, nothing happens but the START is no longer dimmed and I hit the X button.

In the My Documents\My TiVo Recordings folder, there is one movie clip file for each program recorded plus one SMIL (RealPlayer) file.

I open up Windows Media Player, set the captions on, turned off video overlays, turned on high quality mode. Then I opened the TiVO file to play and entered the playback password.

No captions showed.

What else did I miss? I think I didn't.

Oh yes, the SMIL file did show captions when I opened with TextPad but it is of RealPlayer type.


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## NYJetPhan (Mar 25, 2005)

My video fix was for WMP, had nothing to do with Captions, thats why I was wondering why you wanted it. Download the Filter from his site and install that, then you will have captions. Sorry if you got a bit confused there, but some of that had nothing to do with captions, more of a supposed "Codecs" problem I was having.


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## curtiser (Mar 24, 2005)

NYJetPhan said:


> My video fix was for WMP, had nothing to do with Captions, thats why I was wondering why you wanted it. Download the Filter from his site and install that, then you will have captions. Sorry if you got a bit confused there, but some of that had nothing to do with captions, more of a supposed "Codecs" problem I was having.


Even if I turned the overlay back on, it still had no effect.

What "filter" are you talking about? I already downloaded T2SAMI and created the SMIL file. Nothing happens as I said earlier. What else is missing?


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## NYJetPhan (Mar 25, 2005)

There is a filter he has on his site...VSOB or something like that??? I deleted the install so I dont remember what it is called...it is there, I believe there are 2, just get the correct one then you will be reading as you watch...It is short ans sweet, just adds a .dll file I think.


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

curtiser said:


> Let me see if I understand the process correctly:
> 
> I download the T2SAMI program.
> 
> ...


The sequence of steps is correct. However, if you have been following my wanderings through the various threads on this issue, you will see that my program will not work for everyone. The simplest way to tell is to look at the SAMI(SIML) files that are created. If they are in the 1K size range, you are one of the unfortunate ones. If they are larger, say 30K - 90K, you have a filter/player issue that we can fix. If you look inside the SAMI files, you find the small ones have header information but no captioning text.

The underlying problem is that contrary to the assertion that all tivo files contain captioning data, this *appears* not to be the case. After looking at a collection of tivo files from various machines (working and otherwise), my current *conjecture* is that there is a combination of Tivo models and/or cable provider signals that is not being processed correctly on the Tivo side of the equation. These machines are inserting something in the correct location in the tivo file but it is not closed captioning information. When my program tries to process it, it recognises this and skips it. We end up with an empty SAMI file. No SAMI file, no captioning.

I have tried to narrow the cause with polls and questions on this forum and I am trying to get more information from Tivo but like all outsiders, I am at the mercy of of others to respond. In any case, if my conjucture is correct, the unfortunate ones will have to wait until Tivo releases its own solution or at least fixes the problem with the captioning information included in these tivo files.


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## curtiser (Mar 24, 2005)

I think I figured out a solution ... it is not ideal but when it comes to WinDoze, it makes sense.

Uninstall Windows Media Player completely and all of its related components.

Download the WMP from the Microsoft's website and install it. Turn on the captions/subtitles everywhere in the Options.

Go to the website and download both files from the shinnyo website (can't post the link).

Install the filter first then the t2sami.

Make sure the recorded program has been downloaded completely into ...\My TiVo Recordings.

Playback the recording directly from TiVo Desktop (not in WMP).

You got the captions now. Don't ask me why but I suspect that WinDoze messed up configs.

Now, that I've got the captions. Why are there a lot of misspellings and missed characters? Is it a format problem with different TiVo models? My model is almost 2 years old so it's not recent.


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

curtiser said:


> Now, that I've got the captions. Why are there a lot of misspellings and missed characters? Is it a format problem with different TiVo models? My model is almost 2 years old so it's not recent.


No the content of the caption, if you get it at all, is not dependant on the Tivo model. Only on the captioning content provided by the broadcaster. If you are getting strange results, I may be in my program but check to make sure the files were processed by the latest version of my program as earlier versions did have problems. Open one of the .smi files with WordPad ( right click in Windows Explorer, Open With, Choose Program, WordPad ). Third line down looks something like this :

T2Sami Tivo to Sami Closed Caption Converter (0.1.0014)

Version 0.1.0014 is the current version. If it doesn't say this, the tivo file was processed by an earlier version. The "About" box in T2Sami will give you the version installed on your computer. If it is correct, rerun the extraction by turning on the check boxes and pressing "Start". If you don't have the latest version of the program, download it from my site : http://shinnyo.com/t2sami and reinstall ( you don't need to remove the old - just Modify or Repair using the new installer ). Then rerun the extraction.

If none of the above apply, PM me because I may need to get a small sample to see what is different on your system.


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## curtiser (Mar 24, 2005)

jmemmott said:


> right click in Windows Explorer, Open With, Choose Program, WordPad ). Third line down looks something like this :
> 
> T2Sami Tivo to Sami Closed Caption Converter (0.1.0014)
> 
> ...


I confirm I do have the latest version. That line does appear exactly as you quoted.

It is broadcast from DirecTV using the Sat box on the stand-alone TiVo. I will PM you with info.


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## NYJetPhan (Mar 25, 2005)

I will say all decoders are not built equally. Outside of live programming I find CC to be pretty close to either correct English or the actual spoken word of the show (says my wife). I have split a cable and fed both my PC with Media Center and a small Sylvania TV and watched the same show simultaneously. I have noticed that the PCs CC is often a bit more messier. This is the same show, from the same source showing that it is not necessarily always the the source that determines the accuracy of CC but also the decoder within.


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## ppace (Feb 16, 2002)

I'm in the same boat as Curtiser was. T2sami does convert the captions. I am using Version 0.1.0014 and in fact the sample on the web site does show the captions! The file size of the converted files are fine ) but it doesn't show on WMP10 , I can't uninstall WMP 10 just seem to be able to "rollback" to 9 If install over the current version still no captions. It's fustrating . What should I try next, what are the caption settings I should have on (other than Play, Captions and Subtitles, on if available. Captions in english and the setting for show local file if present


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

You might try using the VobSub filter available on the "tools" page of the website. It has been around longer than the builtin SAMI functions in WMP. It seems to be producing more reliable playback results in a broad range of media players. I am adding "SRT" captioning to the next release of the program as an alternative with this in mind. SRT will only work if you have the VobSub filter but since it is also compatible with DVD authoring programs such as DVD-Lab Pro that can burn captions to a DVD, it should allow us to complete the process of taking captioned video through to stand alone players.


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## ppace (Feb 16, 2002)

ok, were getting somewhere. I downloaded vosub and when I run a program the captions are there! BUT the screen is smaller upside down and backwards! and double!!! If I play a file without a related caption file, it works fine. I guess it doesn't invoke vosub

Any suggestions? I feel because I can see the video with captions there must be something I'm not doing right..... so close....


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## Das Achteck (Mar 9, 2005)

ppace said:


> ok, were getting somewhere. I downloaded vosub and when I run a program the captions are there! BUT the screen is smaller upside down and backwards! and double!!! If I play a file without a related caption file, it works fine. I guess it doesn't invoke vosub
> 
> Any suggestions? I feel because I can see the video with captions there must be something I'm not doing right..... so close....


You should have a big green arrow in your tray when VobSub is loaded. Righr click on it and look for "original" and "flipped" picture. Check the one that is not checked.


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## ppace (Feb 16, 2002)

Thanks, just tried that. now the video shakes a bit but no other changes. I'll try updating the drivers tonight.


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## ppace (Feb 16, 2002)

no such luck, darn, double screen upside down


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

ppace said:


> no such luck, darn, double screen upside down


Your description does not register as something I have encountered before, especially the doubling part. It makes me suspicious that you have additional DirectShow filters being added to the mix that are in conflict. Another subtitle or captioning filter installed with another program perhaps. Anyway the best I can come up with right now is to play twenty questions to try to narrow the cause. Let's start with these:

If you click on the big green arrow in the task tray with the left mouse button, you get a property sheet. If you use the right mouse button, you get a context menu. Bring up the context menu (right button). The bottom of the menu lists the property sheets available in the DirectShow graph and gives us an idea of the filters being used. On my system I have : Default DirectSound Device, Video Renderer, DirectVobSub, Roxio MPEG2 Video Decoder, MPEG Audio Decoder, Roxio MPEG2 DeMuxer. What filters pages are shown on your system?

Doubling of the image - I need clarification. Side by side, one top of the another. Doubling of the video only, doubling of the captions, doubling of both?

If you alternately select "Show Subtitles", "Hide Subtitles" from the context menu. What happens to the image?

If you alternately select "Flipped Picture", "Original Picture" from the context menu, do both of the doubled images flip, one of them flip or none of them flip?


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## ppace (Feb 16, 2002)

First, Thanks so much for helping me solve this problem I really appreciate it!!!

1. Default DirectSound Device
2. Video Renderer
3. DirectVobSub, 
4. Cyberlink Video/SP Decoder for Dell
5. WMplug
6. Cyberlink Audio Decoder for Dell
7. Mpeg-2 splitter ------ could this be the cause????? How can I remove this? No properties come up when I click on it and it's not listed in programs

doubling of image- two copies of the screen side by side, upside down and in reverse
Double captions, Captions show right side up, but cut off because of double screen

captions go away when hide subtitles selected

flipped picture selection causes everything to stop - screens still there (like pause)


Please bear in mind all this only happens when directvobsub turns on (reading captions) if there is no caption file, everything plays normally


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

I did a little research on your filters and found out that the "Cyberlink Video/SP Decoder" is a DVD Video and Subtitle filter designed to decode *both video and closed caption data * for use during DVD playback. This tends to confirm my suspicion that you have two filters fighting for control over the caption display : Cyberlink Video/SP Decoder and VobSub. I don't own the Cyperlink filter so I can't tell you if it can be configured to work with either SAMI or SRT in this environment or if it is only good as a DVD filter. You will have to check with the manufacturer's support people. If it can't be configured to work by itself, you will have to replace the Cyberlink filters with something else while you are playing media files rather than DVDs.

The splitter is incidental. If we could actually view the graph layout we would likely find it is needed to supply both warring filters with their respective inputs : a side effect of the automatic graph construction process with both filters present. Without the caption data, the VobSub filter will not try to assert its role and a single video path sans captions ( WMP internal or VobSub ) is possible.


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

I have put a new version of my program onto my website (http://shinnyo.com/t2sami) with support for SubRip (SRT) formatted captions. If you want to use this format for playback, you *must* install an external filter such as the VobSub filter. I added the srt format to simplify the creation of DVDs from tivo files. SRT has been commonly supported for DVDs for quite some time. I have successfully used T2Sami and DVD-Lab Pro to create DVDs with the closed captions converted to Subtitles. I cannot generally advocate following the this path for two reasons :

1) It requires one step that Tivo won't sanction to prepare the files for use in DVD-Lab.

2) I have high regard for DVD-Lab Pro (http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/dvdlabpro.html) but unless you have other uses for it, it is too costly to be a solution for the average person.

I am still looking at/for alternative solutions to get around these two objections but I felt there might be some people that would like to know that there is a reasonable path from tivo --> captioned DVDs that works.


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## ppace (Feb 16, 2002)

As always, thanks for your help. I have tried updating the decoder (even trying the newest version on a trial basis) with no success. Can you recommend a decoder I could try?


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

ppace said:


> As always, thanks for your help. I have tried updating the decoder (even trying the newest version on a trial basis) with no success. Can you recommend a decoder I could try?


There is more that we can do but we have reached the point that it may not be of general interest since we are going to have to look specifically at the filters and DirectShow graph that is being built on your system. We can then try to see one of the filters you already have might work better or if you need to get others and how to get you system to use the right ones. For this reason, it would be better to take it offline and not tie up the open forum with a lot of messages.

If you do not have GraphEdit on your system, get a copy of it and put it on your system : http://www.videohelp.com/tools.php?toolsearch=graphedit. We can then use it to see which filters are being used, how they are connected and what our alternatives might be. When you have this installed, click on my name in the left column and send a private message letting me know you have it.


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## syounger64 (Aug 13, 2004)

NYJetPhan said:


> There is a filter he has on his site...VSOB or something like that??? I deleted the install so I dont remember what it is called...it is there, I believe there are 2, just get the correct one then you will be reading as you watch...It is short ans sweet, just adds a .dll file I think.


It worked for me! Thanks so much for this information. I finally can enjoy and "read" my TTG videos on my laptop anywhere! Yahoo! :up:


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## Rainsforth (Apr 19, 2006)

I downloaded t2sami, ran it through a known captioned show. It produced a Smil file, but there was no captions that showed up inside the smil file


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

Rainsforth said:


> I downloaded t2sami, ran it through a known captioned show. It produced a Smil file, but there was no captions that showed up inside the smil file


This thread is a little out of date. For a better view of the current state of affairs, you might want to read through this more current thread first : http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=243893. Then we will know if it is worth it to try to help...


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## kmead (Oct 21, 2007)

After I downloaded T2Sami, it worked great but I noticed captions are out of order. Is there a way to correct this? Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks!


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## jmemmott (Jul 12, 2003)

Probabily - but I will require more specific information about your system, settings and video content before I can try. Transferring that information is not going to be of much interest to anyone but you and I so I will take that part off the public forum and email you. That way, we can leave this thread for a comments of a more universal appeal.


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