# How much longer will DirecTivo's be useful?



## no2com (Feb 6, 2004)

I know DirecTV is moving their broadcast to MPEG4. Is this only for HD? Or will they start to move over SD channels as well? 

If its only for HD, has there been any prediction, by DTV or others, as to when all channels will be in HD? (I realize that a lot of that has to do with the producers of shows and recording them in HD, but I figure it is possible for a station to go HD for a few shows, but let the others stay in SD).

Thanks.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I think this question has been asked a few times in the last several months. I'd suggest using the search function, but I wouldn't know exactly what terms to use either. 

Anyway, DirecTV most likely won't be moving to all MPEG4 for some time. There's a whole lot of receivers they would need to swap out.


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## gworkman (Feb 6, 2006)

If your OTA reception is good, the HR10-250 will be useful for quite some time.


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## no2com (Feb 6, 2004)

gworkman said:


> If your OTA reception is good, the HR10-250 will be useful for quite some time.


Right. Thanks.

But I should have been more specific. I was referring to SD Tivo's like the HDVR2.


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## no2com (Feb 6, 2004)

JimSpence said:


> I think this question has been asked a few times in the last several months. I'd suggest using the search function, but I wouldn't know exactly what terms to use either.


I did, but wasn't coming up with what I wanted. I was hoping someone had a quick link to post.

Thanks.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

mpeg-4 is currently only for the high definition channels. To convert the standard definition channels to mpeg-4 would require DirecTV to replace millions of receivers. You will not see DirecTV change the standard definition channels for many years if ever.


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## Dkerr24 (Oct 29, 2004)

I bet Directv will continue to support the HDVR2 receivers until there are none left or until Directv goes bankrupt, whichever comes first.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

BTW, I still have a couple of Sony SAT-B50 receivers from 1999 that still work fine.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

I think that the SD channels will remain unchanged for several years, so SD DirecTV Tivos should last for a long time .... at least until their hard drives and other electronic parts die off.


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## dcstager (Feb 16, 2002)

That Sony SAT-B50 is a great receiver and interfaces perfectly with a standalone Tivo using the serial cable. It's great match because it's just as reliable as the Tivo itself. I got one for free during some promotion long ago and it's still in use when other equipment has long since been replaced.

As others have stated, DirecTV is not going to hassle swapping out equipment on this scale. Besides, DirecTV is not included in the laws that require broadcasters to transition to 100% digital and eliminate analog TV. Since DirecTV will probably be the only provider of analog TV in the future, they will benefit greatly by continuing to support the massive installed base of analog TVs.

I think that in the future, new licensing deals will be negotiated with Tivo and DirecTV and with cable companies nationwide. Tivo has built a better mousetrap and eventually cable will want to expand their customer base and transition to Tivo. DirecTV's HD future likewise probably involves Tivo too.

I'm sure the future will have a Series 3 HD-DirecTV only box.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

DTV has always been 100% digital. You can't get any channels unless you use a DTV receiver. When cable goes to 100% digital cable customers will need to use a box to receive all channels. Almost all cable systems currently transmit some analog channels so customers can get basic channels without having to pay for a receiver/convertor box.

You may think tivo will license with cable companies but tivo has been trying to that for years. Comcast is the only announced deal.

DTV decided to drop their relationship with tivo and to develop their own DVR. Their DVR has been released. *I haven't seen any speculation let alone credible information regarding any future DTivo units.*



dcstager said:


> That Sony SAT-B50 is a great receiver and interfaces perfectly with a standalone Tivo using the serial cable. It's great match because it's just as reliable as the Tivo itself. I got one for free during some promotion long ago and it's still in use when other equipment has long since been replaced.
> 
> As others have stated, DirecTV is not going to hassle swapping out equipment on this scale. Besides, DirecTV is not included in the laws that require broadcasters to transition to 100% digital and eliminate analog TV. Since DirecTV will probably be the only provider of analog TV in the future, they will benefit greatly by continuing to support the massive installed base of analog TVs.
> 
> ...


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## dcstager (Feb 16, 2002)

As I'm sure you and everyone here knows, DirecTV's "100% Digital" tag line simply refers to the way they deliver analog video. All those boxes produce analog video output and soon they will be the only provider. I can tell you that at present almost all of their video is delivered at 480x480 at about 1900-2500 kbps. I wouldn't know that unless I had a DTivo. I can make some nice Super Video CD pretty easy these days, but the "digital quality" is at the level of a video CD these days. It's no longer DVD quality video.

DirectTV still delivers a good analog picture when viewed on analog sets. Watching it on a HDTV reveals the flaws and it looks a lot worse. I have no idea what their bit rate is for their HDTV programming, but I'd wager it's no where near 1920 x 1080 @ 15000 kbps like the typical XVID or Matroska files readily available online.

The speculation posted is simply my own. The Tivo is a better mousetrap and it will take market forces to get any cableco or DirecTV to use the technology now or in the future. I think consumers will prefer Tivo software on their DVR and its adpotion will increase the presently flat customer base.

Contradiction is easy, discussion is hard.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Well, Directv would have to swap out every single Customers Receivers, so that in itself would take Years.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

DTV is 100% digital, *you can't hook the wire from your SAT directly to your TV.* Some cable systems are still analog, you can hook the wire directly to your analog TV set and get basic channels. When cable goes 100% digital every TV set will need a cable receiver/converter *exactly the same as DTV.* * Your original point is completely false. * The issue is only with over the air channels, received via an antenna.. Cable customers will be able to use their existing sets. The only change is every set, not cable card compatible, will need a box.

I like tivo but the marketplace has spoken. Tivo lost the DTV account and the Comcast rollout date keeps getting pushed back.

To answer the OP's question, new features, such as interactive stuff, can only be done on the new receivers. My guess is DTV will wait until more DTivo boxes get replaced through normal attritution before they do a swap out.



dcstager said:


> As I'm sure you and everyone here knows, DirecTV's "100% Digital" tag line simply refers to the way they deliver analog video. All those boxes produce analog video output and soon they will be the only provider. I can tell you that at present almost all of their video is delivered at 480x480 at about 1900-2500 kbps. I wouldn't know that unless I had a DTivo. I can make some nice Super Video CD pretty easy these days, but the "digital quality" is at the level of a video CD these days. It's no longer DVD quality video.
> 
> DirectTV still delivers a good analog picture when viewed on analog sets. Watching it on a HDTV reveals the flaws and it looks a lot worse. I have no idea what their bit rate is for their HDTV programming, but I'd wager it's no where near 1920 x 1080 @ 15000 kbps like the typical XVID or Matroska files readily available online.
> 
> ...


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## dcstager (Feb 16, 2002)

No need to repeat myself a third time. You simply do not grasp the point Lew.


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## doncoolio (Jul 9, 2006)

dcstager said:


> No need to repeat myself a third time. You simply do not grasp the point Lew.


Your point is false because you do not understand what exactly the FCC is doing. Go to the FCC page and do some research on DTV.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

dcstager said:


> No need to repeat myself a third time. You simply do not grasp the point Lew.


I gave you an opportunity to clear up the misinformation you previously posted.

I'm sorry I'm not communicating better but the following quote is *so misleading as to be completely wrong.* Digital cable supports analog TVs at least as well as DTV. Low cost converter boxes will support those customers who want to continue to receive their programming OTA. The laws requiring broadcaster to convert to 100% digital will put those customers, who don't currently require a cable box, *in the exact same category as current DTV customers.* Connect the box to your TV set and you're set to go.



> Besides, DirecTV is not included in the laws that require broadcasters to transition to 100% digital and eliminate analog TV. Since DirecTV will probably be the only provider of analog TV in the future, they will benefit greatly by continuing to support the massive installed base of analog TVs.


I'll agree with the previous posters in this thread. I'm sure DTV isn't in a rush to spend the buck to swap out the boxes.

I think the ship has passed, but I'm surprised DTV, DISH or a major cable company didn't use tivo for their DVR software and openly promote that as an advantage. Sometimes being the first, and even the best, isn't enough. How many photocopy machines are Xerox?


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I think the reason the DBS and cable companies haven't used TiVo as their standard DVR is $$$$. They don't want to pay for the system. DirecTV brought out their own version, thinking they can do better. Whether they succeeded is up for discussion.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Who is to say Directv will ever get rid of the Directv/Tivo boxes at all?

But remember, Directv is currently working on alot of stuff: A splitter for Dual tuners, its own version of Tivo Desktop Tivotogo etc.

The argument over Directv, Tivo, Comcast etc will always continue......

Now.... to put it another way: Is TIVO in a rush to get rid of all its Series 1 and 2 units in favor of the Series 3? NO WAY. They simple cannot afford to. Directv is in the same boat.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

SD DirecTivo's will still be useful until their hard drive dies.

Only HD is moving to MPEG4. You'll be just fine on your DirecTivo into the next decade.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

I expect to use my SD series 1, SD series 2 and HD DirecTiVo's for many more years. There may come a time when I choose to add an HR20 DirecTV DVR (non-TiVo) unit if the added HD satellite channels are worth the extra expense and UI hassle. But the HR20 would be an addition, not a replacement.


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## DonDon (Jan 14, 2007)

I believe there is some deal between Dtv and Tivo that ends in 2011, but I am not positive on the details.

I do know that something expired in February, I think it was that Dtv can no longer sell new Dtivo units. It didn't matter much as they no longer had any in stock to sell anyway.

I just looked through the old forum posts, and it looks like they delete after a month of no activity unless they are made sticky. But I am pretty sure I remember reading a couple of months ago that Dtv will support the Tivo boxes until at least 2011. After that, I am not sure.

I will prolly jump ship when the Commtivo unit is out and debugged. I am figuring at least a year for that though. 

Don


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

lew said:


> You may think tivo will license with cable companies but tivo has been trying to that for years. Comcast is the only announced deal.
> 
> [/B]


Cox


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## BobbyK (Apr 12, 2003)

lew said:


> DTV has always been 100% digital. You can't get any channels unless you use a DTV receiver. When cable goes to 100% digital cable customers will need to use a box to receive all channels. Almost all cable systems currently transmit some analog channels so customers can get basic channels without having to pay for a receiver/convertor box.
> 
> You may think tivo will license with cable companies but tivo has been trying to that for years. Comcast is the only announced deal.
> 
> DTV decided to drop their relationship with tivo and to develop their own DVR. Their DVR has been released. *I haven't seen any speculation let alone credible information regarding any future DTivo units.*


Directv still has a relationship with TiVo. They have extended their agreement, albeit to just avoid a lawsuit as you've seen with DISH. If you call DTV you will find that they will still sell the HR 10-250, TiVo equipped HD unit. However, you must ASK for it and they will likely try to push you into their crappy unit instead.

My question is, if an agreement with Satellite is necessary, there must already be some sort of agreement for TiVo to make Satellite compatible boxes as the Series 2 accepts Satellite... So why not an HD Unit? Is this due to the fact a NEW agreement would have to be reached to do a HD box? or is it that it was too expensive to make one and they had to choose between Satellite or cable? Neither of these answers make any sense to me. Can someone set me straight on this? I am scratching my head over this for sometime. I have no knowledge of the law/rules governing such.

Many thanks to anyone who can provide info.


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

What do you mean "Soon they will be the only provider"? Every provider that I know of offers analog output from their STB's.

Digital outputs:
HDMI
DVI

Analog outputs:
Composite (SD)
S-Video (SD)
RF Channel 3/4 (SD)
VGA (ED/HD)
Component (HD)

Also, I'm pretty sure that D* is transmitting their SD in standard NTSC resolutions, which generally means 330x480i for broadbast TV. I don't know why they would upconvert the broadcasters NTSC signal to 480x480 when it would just end up down-coverted again for display on the customers SD TV set.



dcstager said:


> As I'm sure you and everyone here knows, DirecTV's "100% Digital" tag line simply refers to the way they deliver analog video. All those boxes produce analog video output and soon they will be the only provider. I can tell you that at present almost all of their video is delivered at 480x480 at about 1900-2500 kbps.


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## grecorj (Feb 6, 2002)

Well, some people still have UltimateTV units. So I'd say: forever.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

BobbyK said:


> My question is, their must already be some sort of agreement for TiVo to make Satellite ready boxes as they already sell some...


TiVo does not have a satellite ready box. The R10 and the HR10-250 where the last two satellite boxes there were made.


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## BobbyK (Apr 12, 2003)

rminsk said:


> TiVo does not have a satellite ready box. The R10 and the HR10-250 where the last two satellite boxes there were made.


What I meant was that THE SERIES 2 accepts and is compatible with Satellite ...so why not an HD unit that accepts Satellite.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

BobbyK said:


> What I meant was that THE SERIES 2 accepts and is compatible with Satellite ...so why not an HD unit that accepts Satellite.


The series 2 standalone only accept analog signals and not the satellite signal. An mpeg encoder for analog hd is still quite expensive.


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## acahn (Nov 5, 2002)

i think a better question would be at what point does dtv begin adding new hd channels in mpeg4 only, so therefore not available on an existing directivo reciever. 

as for the debate between digital vs analog, i think the problem is that people assume that since directv is digital the quality is better than if it were analog. the move to digital cable is more about fitting more channels over existing lines, i.e. higher compression, i.e. lower quality. the same is true of satellite, lower the bit rate = fit more channels in the same space.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

acahn said:


> as for the debate between digital vs analog,.


I was not debating digital vs analog. I was pointing out that there is not a currently made TiVo unit that accepts satellite signals. The only available models now only accept an analog signal and recompress it.


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## BobbyK (Apr 12, 2003)

rminsk said:


> The series 2 standalone only accept analog signals and not the satellite signal. An mpeg encoder for analog hd is still quite expensive.


So you feel the reason TiVo didn't give us a standalone HD TiVo is the cost?

If it costs more, they charge more... One was put into the HR 10-250, correct? I bought mine for less than the series 3 costs and that was years ago. So I am not sure that would be the reason.


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## puffdaddy (Mar 1, 2006)

The HR10-250's have no mpeg encoders at all. They have two satellite and two ATSC OTA _tuners_ to capture streams that are already mpeg2 encoded.

SA units include mpeg encoders to produce an mpeg2 stream from an analog signal fed into it. An mpeg2 encoder that could handle a high definition stream would be very expensive.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

YESTERDAY, new locals are mpeg4. Some of the HD RSN channles, such as YES, are mpeg4. AFAIK all new HD channels will be mpeg4 only.

A better question would be at what point will existing HD channels be changed to mpeg4.



acahn said:


> i think a better question would be at what point does dtv begin adding new hd channels in mpeg4 only, so therefore not available on an existing directivo reciever.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

BobbyK said:


> So you feel the reason TiVo didn't give us a standalone HD TiVo is the cost?
> 
> If it costs more, they charge more... One was put into the HR 10-250, correct? I bought mine for less than the series 3 costs and that was years ago. So I am not sure that would be the reason.


Tivo didn't make an MPEG4 HD DirecTivo because DirecTV and Tivo ended their relationship and DirecTV now makes their own DVRs not using Tivo software.

And let's not debate why because there are LARGE threads here and elsewhere over the past year that cover this topic.


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## no2com (Feb 6, 2004)

acahn said:


> i think a better question would be at what point does dtv begin adding new hd channels in mpeg4 only, so therefore not available on an existing directivo reciever. .


Acahn has hit the nail on the head. Basically that's was trying to figure out. I realize the HDVR2 and the like and the HR10-250 are MPEG 2 based and that D* has moved their HiDef channels to MPEG 4.

I guess the only other thing for me to ask, is would D* ever consider moving SD channels to MPEG 4 to save bandwidth?


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

BobbyK said:


> So you feel the reason TiVo didn't give us a standalone HD TiVo is the cost?
> 
> If it costs more, they charge more... One was put into the HR 10-250, correct?


The HR10-250 does not contain an mpeg encoder. It records the satellite stream or ATSC signal directly. These signals have already been mpeg-2 compressed at the broadcast source.


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## John T Smith (Jun 17, 2004)

no2com said:


> I guess the only other thing for me to ask, is would D* ever consider moving SD channels to MPEG 4 to save bandwidth?


As has been said many times... VERY doubtful

Removing the MPEG2 data stream would mean current receivers, DTivo or just regular, would stop working

That would mean DirecTv would either have to FORCE people to pay for the change (several MILLION customers) or DTV would have to SUPPLY the new boxes free... and that would be MANY MILLIONS of dollars

I do not see the MPEG2 data stream being totally replaced


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## mrpurple (Sep 10, 2002)

Well I just called dircttv because alothough they are starting to advertise Buffalo Locals as being available in HDTV they certainly aren't in HD on my hdtivo. They said basically If I want locals in HD I need to swap out my HDTiVo and my dish for $99. They also said this is the only way to get the 150 new HD channels coming over the summer. I have had bad experiences with non-TiVo dvrs and am not looking forward to changing.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

mrpurple said:


> Well I just called dircttv because alothough they are starting to advertise Buffalo Locals as being available in HDTV they certainly aren't in HD on my hdtivo. They said basically If I want locals in HD I need to swap out my HDTiVo and my dish for $99. They also said this is the only way to get the 150 new HD channels coming over the summer. I have had bad experiences with non-TiVo dvrs and am not looking forward to changing.


Why change? You can have both HR10 and HR20 side by side. Use the HR20 only for the MPEG4 stuff for now while you get used to it and keep your HR10 running as normal. Over time you can migrate HD recordings over to the HR20. Eventually, even when MPEG2 HD is turned off the HR10 will still function just fine for OTA HD and all the SD channels.


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## PeterGriffin (May 25, 2005)

lew said:


> DTV is 100% digital, *you can't hook the wire from your SAT directly to your TV.* Some cable systems are still analog, you can hook the wire directly to your analog TV set and get basic channels. When cable goes 100% digital every TV set will need a cable receiver/converter *exactly the same as DTV.* * Your original point is completely false. * The issue is only with over the air channels, received via an antenna.. Cable customers will be able to use their existing sets. The only change is every set, not cable card compatible, will need a box.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Not true. Every new tv being shipped has a digital tuner built into it, not just analog. If you have an old analog only tv, you will need a cable box, but if you have one of the newer tv's with analog and digital, or just digital, tuners, you will not need a cable box.


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## rjnerd (May 28, 2007)

Is there any way that a successor to the h10, that can decode mpeg-4 in addition to all the other bells and whistles could become a reality? After hearing whats going on with directtv's roll-their-own h20, I am depressed. There are exactly two features that the h20 had, that I want to add to the h10 - the 60 rather than 30 minute buffer, and the disk space gauge.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Highly doubtful that you will see a TiVo based DirecTV HD DVR. 

There's a thread around here somewhere that asked this question.

BTW, the 60 minute buffer on the HR20 only buffers one channel.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

JimSpence said:


> Highly doubtful that you will see a TiVo based DirecTV HD DVR.
> 
> There's a thread around here somewhere that asked this question.
> 
> BTW, the 60 minute buffer on the HR20 only buffers one channel.


Correction: It's a 90 minute buffer on only one tuner.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I should have known that from reading the HR20 forum, but I just took the lazy route and repeated what rjnerd said.  I know I should check the other forum, and I may have in the past, but any word on if DirecTV will turn that 90 minute buffer into two 45 minute ones?

Bottom line, the DirecTV DVR's with TiVo will be useful as long as they keep working.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

You're correct - as long as there's an SD channel or OTA channel that the HR10 is authorized to received and record, the HR10 will be useful.

The door is still open on dual live buffers, or DLB, as it's referred to over at DBSTalk. (Man, that place loves its acronyms! ) 

DirecTV has an ambitious agenda this year with an updated interface on the HR20, the roll out of true Video-on-Demand (VOD, with both PPV and Free content), and this fall, the roll out of more than 75 new HD channels, but the good news is that even with all that, they haven't made a decision on DLB, one way or another. 

DirecTV is very well aware that DLB is of importance to the HR20 user base. I've been impressed with DirecTV's responsiveness to the HR20 user base, with many suggestions made by the users being implemented in the HR20, so I would not be surprised if some form of DLB some day makes it into the software ...

Many


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