# SSDs in TiVos/DVRs, Yes You Can Do It (was: 5TB Bolt Drive to 7.68TB SSD Upgrade, Best Approach?)



## zombiephysicist

Hi All:

I'm about to upgrade my (already upgraded) 5TB bolt to a 7.68TB Micron SSD. If possible, I would like to get the shows off my current 5TB drive onto the 7.68TB SSD. I'm not sure what the best way to go about doing that and would like any suggestions.

OPTION A: I _think_ MFS Tools 3.2 should probably let me do this? I assume it's some app I run under windows with both drives plugged in, and hopefully straight forward?

OPTION B: Or, do I use, instead MFS Reformatter and some combination of that with MFS Tools 3.2?

Would appreciate any thoughts/suggestions. Thanks!

*Update 2022-07-22*
Info/1st update on results here:








SSDs in TiVos/DVRs, Yes You Can Do It (was: 5TB Bolt...


Hi All: I'm about to upgrade my (already upgraded) 5TB bolt to a 7.68TB Micron SSD. If possible, I would like to get the shows off my current 5TB drive onto the 7.68TB SSD. I'm not sure what the best way to go about doing that and would like any suggestions. OPTION A: I think MFS Tools 3.2...




www.tivocommunity.com





2nd update here:








SSDs in TiVos/DVRs, Yes You Can Do It (was: 5TB Bolt...


Hi All: I'm about to upgrade my (already upgraded) 5TB bolt to a 7.68TB Micron SSD. If possible, I would like to get the shows off my current 5TB drive onto the 7.68TB SSD. I'm not sure what the best way to go about doing that and would like any suggestions. OPTION A: I think MFS Tools 3.2...




www.tivocommunity.com


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## ThAbtO

MSFTools is not a Windows app, it really is either a bootable CD/USB stick that is linux based. 

I think its limited to 4TB for Roamio and Bolts, although I believe that MFSTools don't work right on Bolts.

MFSR should be called an expander since it expands the drive beyond the 3TB default max Roamio/Bolts can format to. You would plug the new/blank drive into the Roamio/Bolt for it to initalize it, then connect to a Windows 7+ PC to expand to the limits of the drive. 

I have done it on my Roamio from its original 500GB to the current 4TB WD Red drive, and its been running for about 5 yrs, at about 35% full.


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## zombiephysicist

I see, so since it is limited to 4TB, then I guess I need to use MFS Reformatter to make a 7.68TB partition. So assuming I do this, will MFSTools be able to see that larger partition and let me copy media from the old 5TB drive over. Or will it fail to work because it's unable to deal with anything larger than 4TB?


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## ThAbtO

zombiephysicist said:


> I see, so since it is limited to 4TB, then I guess I need to use MFS Reformatter to make a 7.68TB partition.


Your "7.68TB" drive may actually be a 8TB, as there are no 7.xxTB drives made. There also would not be a 7.6TB partition. Tivo is unlike your common PC that runs on a single partition. It uses up to about 14 partitions. Each partition may be limited in size which depends on its function.

As noted previously, I doubt MFSTools work on Bolts. unless its been updated to work on Bolts..

With MFSR you would be starting anew with a blank drive prepped to a Tivo.

There are other programs like KMTTG, to download non-copy-protected shows to a computer/PC/Mac, as well as backup/restore the passes. (as long as the drive still works in the Tivo.) You would need PyTivo/Desktop to put shows back to the Tivo newer drive, albeit one at a time.

Appending to your other thread: If you use standby and the software version v21.7+/Hydra/TE4... There is a bug where it may not wake up from standby properly and would require a reboot. Also, this version does not allow transfers of shows from a computer anymore, although Tivo to Tivo (Premiere and above) seems to still work, just have to use online.tivo.com to do it. There are lots of other bugs with this version.

It can be downgradable (rather upgrade) to v20.7+, but if you have a VOX model, you lose that function, but gain the ability to transfer shows as noted above.[/QUOTE]


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## zombiephysicist

Thanks. Well the drive is listed as that, so not sure what to tell you about that. See here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JQ2F2WG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thank you regarding noting MFSTools might not work. That's a bummer. But appreciate the info.

So basically, I have to use MFSR to format a blank drive and just lose my recordings on the other TiVo.

The TiVo to TiVo transfer will not work as this upgrade is on the same TiVo. Bummer.

As for dangers of Standby. It's worked so well for me, knock wood, so not sure what to say about it. But if I understand your version numbers, I'm using the "traditional" UI and have not upgraded to the new UI, so maybe that's another benefit of staying with the old UI! 

Thank you so much for your insights. Much appreciated!


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## ThAbtO

There are just too many bugs in the "newer" UI/Hydra/TE4/v21.7+ to even recommend upgrading to. Better to keep using v20.7+/TE3...


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## jmbach

zombiephysicist said:


> Thanks. Well the drive is listed as that, so not sure what to tell you about that. See here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JQ2F2WG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Thank you regarding noting MFSTools might not work. That's a bummer. But appreciate the info.
> 
> So basically, I have to use MFSR to format a blank drive and just lose my recordings on the other TiVo.
> 
> The TiVo to TiVo transfer will not work as this upgrade is on the same TiVo. Bummer.
> 
> As for dangers of Standby. It's worked so well for me, knock wood, so not sure what to say about it. But if I understand your version numbers, I'm using the "traditional" UI and have not upgraded to the new UI, so maybe that's another benefit of staying with the old UI!
> 
> Thank you so much for your insights. Much appreciated!


It might be possible with MFSTools if the recordings are reduced to less than 4TB of space. I have not really explored the shrink functionality of MFSTools yet so I do not know if this works as I expect it to.

The idea is this, use mfscopy -sam 2000 source target to copy and shrink the recording space to about 4TB.

If that is successful, then we can expand the drive to use the full recording space with the technique in the 10TB Roamio thread. The caveat is that you will need the a modified MFSTools version angra and I are working on. This version allows mfsadd to add a pair of partitions that mfsaddfix will move.

The key would be if the mfscopy command works to shrink the recording space and copies the recordings successfully.


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## zombiephysicist

jmbach said:


> It might be possible with MFSTools if the recordings are reduced to less than 4TB of space. I have not really explored the shrink functionality of MFSTools yet so I do not know if this works as I expect it to.
> 
> The idea is this, use mfscopy -sam 2000 source target to copy and shrink the recording space to about 4TB.
> 
> If that is successful, then we can expand the drive to use the full recording space with the technique in the 10TB Roamio thread. The caveat is that you will need the a modified MFSTools version angra and I are working on. This version allows mfsadd to add a pair of partitions that mfsaddfix will move.
> 
> The key would be if the mfscopy command works to shrink the recording space and copies the recordings successfully.


Thanks, it's 5TB and 100% full. I guess I could go in and prune a lot of shows off first and then try it.

But isnt the problem it cannot even deal see over 4TB? So since this is on 5TB it sounds like a recipe for nuking data... Which I'll probably end up doing regardless... Hmm, thanks for the thought.


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## jmbach

zombiephysicist said:


> Thanks, it's 5TB and 100% full. I guess I could go in and prune a lot of shows off first and then try it.
> 
> But isnt the problem it cannot even deal see over 4TB? So since this is on 5TB it sounds like a recipe for nuking data... Which I'll probably end up doing regardless... Hmm, thanks for the thought.


The command will restrict the copy to 4TB. The added partitions will expand the recording space to the full size of the drive. Each added partition pair would add up to 2TB of recording space.


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## zombiephysicist

jmbach said:


> The command will restrict the copy to 4TB. The added partitions will expand the recording space to the full size of the drive. Each added partition pair would add up to 2TB of recording space.


How does the restriction to 4TB work? Will it restrict it to the first 2 2TB partitions. Or to 4TB of actual content? Because I think I can easily delete 20% of the recordings on there so there is under 4TB of content, but it will still be on a 5TB space (and I'm not sure how it's partitioned, I let MSFR do it's thing in partitioning it to use the full 5TB--ie it could be 3 1.6TB partitions, or 2 2TB partitions and 1 1TB partition).

Thanks for the help.


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## jmbach

zombiephysicist said:


> How does the restriction to 4TB work? Will it restrict it to the first 2 2TB partitions. Or to 4TB of actual content? Because I think I can easily delete 20% of the recordings on there so there is under 4TB of content, but it will still be on a 5TB space (and I'm not sure how it's partitioned, I let MSFR do it's thing in partitioning it to use the full 5TB--ie it could be 3 1.6TB partitions, or 2 2TB partitions and 1 1TB partition).
> 
> Thanks for the help.


Consider using kmttg to offload that 20% to a NAS or your computer's hard drive.

The command creates two 2TB media partitions and then in theory copies the recordings over as long as there are not more recordings than space available.


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## HerronScott

ThAbtO said:


> As noted previously, I doubt MFSTools work on Bolts. unless its been updated to work on Bolts..


MFS Tools 3.2

Scott


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## HerronScott

And possibly for larger drives as well. 

10TB Bolt?

Scott


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## zombiephysicist

Thanks guys. I tried the MFSTools 3.3. Made a USB thupmbstick, but my surfacebook wouldnt boot it, so I just gave up. I did install the SSD. MFS Formatter did it's job and it formatted out to over 7100MBs and resulted in well ever 1200 HD recording hours.

So now we'll see how long it lasts.

Initial notes. The boot time etc isn't any faster. Which makes sense as I have come to realize, the Bolt has some kind of mini SD card boot device somewhere on it. The OS boots from that. So the only "speed up" the Bolt will gain might be when it's trying to get a listing of shows while it's heavily being written to. So I suspect in general, it should seem like the same speed.

The one benefit I did instantly feel was the lack of anxiety of moving the bolt around while it's working. Without a real spinning drive moving the bolt around is now anxiety free, no fear of a drive crash.

Anyway, let's see how long this puppy lasts.

I'm going to cross post this in this thread to give feedback on how long this drive might last.

Success Upgrading Bolt(+) with 4TB, 5TB + 2.5" Internal Drives?

Thanks for everyone's help!


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## ggieseke

Between UEFI BIOS and SecureBoot, it's tough to boot a modern-day computer like a surfacebook into anything but the installed OS.

Roamios and Bolts run the OS from flash memory on the motherboard, and on Bolts even the main database is on flash. I wouldn't expect much improvement (if any) in overall performance. It's still an interesting experiment if you can afford it, so keep us updated.


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## ThAbtO

ggieseke said:


> It's still an interesting experiment


That is one expensive experiment, especially since its 4x the cost of a conventional 8TB.


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## multiple

Hi zombiephysicist,

How's this drive holding out for you? I'm taking the plunge and buying this drive at rakuten for slight over $800 with the 15% discount.

I'm expecting the following longevity for this SSD drive...
9.60 MB/s for 19.2Mbps*4 tuners - the rate is likely a lot less than this due to additional compression used by cable but I'll assume the drive write amplification issue will offset this
829440 MB/day
7444889 MB Formatted drive size in MB (assuming your 7.1TB formatted drive size above)
8.98 Days to fill drive
1346 Days till 150 drive writes - expected drive failure
3.69 Number years before expected drive failure, no sleep
7.38 Number years before expected drive failure with 50% sleep


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## zombiephysicist

Well it's only been about 2 months, but it's fine. So it's too soon to tell.

I set the TiVo to go to Low standby mode, so it goes to sleep after 4hrs of inactivity and still records suggestions. That said, my Harmon remote puts the TiVo into standby whenever I turn it off. So the reality is that live 6 tuner 24/7 recording will not occur.

https://support.tivo.com/articles/Features_Use/Power-Saving-and-Standby-Modes

This post has links regarding what the real perils are IMO (TLDR; Live TV 24/7 6 tuner caching is the drive killer, so avoid it being engaged 24/7):

Success Upgrading Bolt(+) with 4TB, 5TB + 2.5" Internal Drives?

UPDATED: Also this post is useful in it discusses how many writes this micron enterprise drive is capable of as it is designed for a LOT of database read/writs:

MFS Reformatter (mfsr)

The bottom line for me is I think this drive has as much endurance as a regular hard drive, but just making sure you let the TiVo sleep so its 24/7 6 tuner live recording cache doesnt run 24/7 is likely the difference between the drive lasting say 5 years to the drive lasting say 15 years.

Knocking wood. So far, so good. But my usage so far is only 4% of the drive is used. So time has yet to tell the durability of the drive.

No real feeling of the TiVo being snappier. Even, sadly, when fast forwarding, it doesnt really feel any snappier. The only real plusses is it's a really big internal drive on the Bolt, and I feel zero fear moving the bolt around even when it's recording, because their are no moving parts.

Great deal on the drive BTW, the prices are dropping like rocks, which is great!


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## justen_m

zombiephysicist said:


> No real feeling of the TiVo being snappier. Even, sadly, when fast forwarding, it doesnt really feel any snappier.


Not that surprising. e.g. Back in the Series 3 time frame, TiVO<->PC file transfers were limited to around 12Mbps. The network was 100Mbps, the HDD even faster. The bottleneck was the slow-ass CPU on the TiVo. I suspect something similar here. The drive isn't the bottleneck. It's either the internal bus bandwidth or the CPU itself, depending on how data is copied from the drive buffer to main memory. Or, when fast forwarding, the computations required to index the frames in the data stream. Shrug. Same goes for boot times. The CPU is probably pegged when booting from a HDD, so an SSD won't make much of a difference. PCs, with fast Intel/AMD CPUs see a huge improvement, but not devices running from a relatively slow, cheap SoCs.


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## multiple

Prices are still dropping quickly. You can now get the Micron 5210 Ion 7.68TB drive @ Rakuten for $684 using the 20% coupon today (probably available once a month for about one or two days). I should say it cost me $664 (-1% (this is sometime up to 6%) if you register your credit card at ebates.com, then another -2% by using a 2% cash back card). I couldn't resist and ordered another one.


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## zombiephysicist

So over 3 months. So far, knock wood. Only 5% usage though.


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## multiple

I decided to upgrade one of my older Bolts which was on TE4 and had a lot of shows I wanted saved for the kids and the Micron 5210 would get stuck at the starting up screen. Luckily putting the old drive back in worked without loss of shows. I'm seeking help to see if my mfscopy procedure worked correctly first before giving up, but it is not looking good. I know with certainty that my Micron 1100 2TB no longer works under TE4, so I'm now suspecting the same for the Micron 5210 drives. Earlier I thought zombiephysicist was on TE4, so I thought it was safe.


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## zombiephysicist

Interesting. I never did copy. I just formatted it clean with mfsr and put it in as a new drive. And I'm using a Bolt + 6 tuner model. I'm not sure what the TE 4 is. 

I'm at 4 months and 6% usage (although I have hundreds and hundreds of suggestions on the drive so I do suspect it is in actuality full), and so far, knock wood, it's going great.

I can only vouch for the path I took and that it's working great (knock wood) for me so far. Sorry to hear of the problems you're experiencing. I wonder if you tried just nuking the drive with the mfsr and running to see if it might work that way. Just to reduce the number of variables.


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## jmbach

zombiephysicist said:


> Interesting. I never did copy. I just formatted it clean with mfsr and put it in as a new drive. And I'm using a Bolt + 6 tuner model. I'm not sure what the TE 4 is.
> 
> I'm at 4 months and 6% usage (although I have hundreds and hundreds of suggestions on the drive so I do suspect it is in actuality full), and so far, knock wood, it's going great.
> 
> I can only vouch for the path I took and that it's working great (knock wood) for me so far. Sorry to hear of the problems you're experiencing. I wonder if you tried just nuking the drive with the mfsr and running to see if it might work that way. Just to reduce the number of variables.


TE 4 or TE 3 refers to the UI. TE 4 is Hydra/Mira and TE 3 is Encore/Quattro which you can find at the very last few entries in the System Information screen.


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## zombiephysicist

Oh, thanks. Yea, I never upgraded to the new UI. I use the old traditional UI. Heard too many bad things about the new UI and that there was no easy undo for it. Mine says quattro.


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## multiple

v21.7+/Hydra/TE4 is the new UI interface. TE3 is the older UI. You mentioned earlier in this thread you stuck with the older UI, so unless you upgraded the software you are still on the older UI. If you accidentally upgrade you will lose your shows, assuming TE4 is the problem, and you would have to find a different drive to downgrade your Bolt. Unfortunately I have all Vox remotes, so just pressing the voice button kicks off the upgrade. This Bolt is for my kids and they just mash buttons till the get what they want, which means I likely can’t control the upgrade from happening.

Also everyone in the house likes the new UI and it has the auto commercial skip feature everyone likes. Under the new UI, the biggest loss for me is the ability to transfer shows between TiVos and PCs, which is an insurance policy during drive upgrade failures.


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## zombiephysicist

multiple said:


> v21.7+/Hydra/TE4 is the new UI interface. TE3 is the older UI. You mentioned earlier in this thread you stuck with the older UI, so unless you upgraded the software you are still on the older UI. If you accidentally upgrade you will lose your shows, assuming TE4 is the problem, and you would have to find a different drive to downgrade your Bolt. Unfortunately I have all Vox remotes, so just pressing the voice button kicks off the upgrade. This Bolt is for my kids and they just mash buttons till the get what they want, which means I likely can't control the upgrade from happening.
> 
> Also everyone in the house likes the new UI and it has the auto commercial skip feature everyone likes. Under the new UI, the biggest loss for me is the ability to transfer shows between TiVos and PCs, which is an insurance policy during drive upgrade failures.


Wow, that is insane!?!? A button press shouldnt launch an upgrade! And an upgrade shouldnt nuke shows! Crazy. TiVo is making it more and more desirable to stop using their devices and just go to full on streaming...


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## jmbach

zombiephysicist said:


> Wow, that is insane!?!? A button press shouldnt launch an upgrade! And an upgrade shouldnt nuke shows! Crazy. TiVo is making it more and more desirable to stop using their devices and just go to full on streaming...


Upgrade won't nuke shows unless your drive is one of the drives TE 4 hangs on. Technically those shows are not nuked but recovering from that nukes the recordings. If you know of a drive that works, cloning the drive would save it. Only downgrades lose shows.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## zombiephysicist

jmbach said:


> Upgrade won't nuke shows unless your drive is one of the drives TE 4 hangs on. Technically those shows are not nuked but recovering from that nukes the recordings. If you know of a drive that works, cloning the drive would save it. Only downgrades lose shows.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


But how do you know if TE4 hangs on a drive. Why wouldn't TE4 work with at LEAST all the same drives as TE3?


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## jmbach

zombiephysicist said:


> But how do you know if TE4 hangs on a drive. Why wouldn't TE4 work with at LEAST all the same drives as TE3?


That is the million dollar question. I started to investigate this in my spare time trying to see what is causing it to stall a while back when this all first started. Just ran out of spare time and work has been stalled.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## multiple

jmbach said:


> Upgrade won't nuke shows unless your drive is one of the drives TE 4 hangs on. Technically those shows are not nuked but recovering from that nukes the recordings. If you know of a drive that works, cloning the drive would save it. Only downgrades lose shows.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I expect cloning would work, but it would then force you to stay on TE4 and with the new drive. You could not return to TE3 nor use the SSD again as long as the Bolt is on TE4. I've probably been the most unlucky SOB on this site with drives failing on TE4. I really should have reverted all my TIvos to TE3, but it appears I'm a glutton for punishment.


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## jmbach

multiple said:


> I expect cloning would work, but it would then force you to stay on TE4 and with the new drive. You could not return to TE3 nor use the SSD again as long as the Bolt is on TE4. I've probably been the most unlucky SOB on this site with drives failing on TE4. I really should have reverted all my TIvos to TE3, but it appears I'm a glutton for punishment.


You can return to TE3 just like any other drive that would be in there. You will lose your recordings and probably have to reexpand the space but the core partitions would stay the same.

That is assuming it will boot to being operational.

You certainly can use the SSD on TE3. I cannot say which SSD will work with TE4. We probably should keep a list somewhere with drives that work with TE4.


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## zombiephysicist

Nearing 6 months of use, knock wood, and the SSD is holding up. However with only 7% capacity used, but the drive has likely filled up and over several times with suggestions.


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## zombiephysicist

7 months and 8% usage and holding up so far. Knocking wood.


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## zombiephysicist

About 8 months, 9% usage. All seems to be ok. Knock wood some more.


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## zombiephysicist

About 9 months, 10% usage (although drive is full of suggestions). All seems to be ok. Knock wood some more.


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## zombiephysicist

About 10 months. 11% usage. Knock wood, all seems to be well. Also I'm sitting the bolt up in a vertical position now, which wouldn't have been possible with a spinner drive. Nice if you have a need to shove it in weird position.


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## keithg1964

zombiephysicist said:


> About 10 months. 11% usage. Knock wood, all seems to be well. Also I'm sitting the bolt up in a vertical position now, which wouldn't have been possible with a spinner drive. Nice if you have a need to shove it in weird position.


Orientation does not matter for spinner drives.

https://www.howtogeek.com/128397/does-hard-drive-orientation-affect-its-lifespan/


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## zombiephysicist

keithg1964 said:


> Orientation does not matter for spinner drives.
> 
> https://www.howtogeek.com/128397/does-hard-drive-orientation-affect-its-lifespan/


So the drive is not vertical. It's in the bent part of the bolt. ----\

In the slash above. So when it's standing straight up and the spinner is basically pointing upwards but off in a slightly horizontal angle, then you have it spinning not vertically, and not horizontally. I guess the spin is definitely fast enough to create some gyro stability, but still, I think you're asking for trouble with it being off angle.

Furthermore, the HDMI cable going into is so stiff, that when I move things around, it easily moves and tips over the TiVo in it's spot. That definitely is not good for a spinner.


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## zombiephysicist

at 11 months, at 13% and all seems well (knocking wood).


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## RegGuheert

zombiephysicist said:


> at 11 months, at 13% and all seems well (knocking wood).


First, I would like to say "Thank you" for doing this experiment and for reporting the results, including updates!

You have chosen to use an enterprise-class SSD in your TiVo and it appears that you are using about 1% of the unit's endurance each month. Endurance ratings for enterprise-class SSDs are different than those for consumer-grade products, and, in fact, they seem to more closely match the operating environment seen inside the Bolt's case. Specifically, the JEDEC SSD standards organization defines the enterprise operating temperature to be 55°C versus 40°C for consumer grade SSDs, as can be seen on page 26 of this presentation by the then-acting chairman of the SSD standards committee. In addition, the enterprise-grade SSDs ratings are made by operating the units 24 hours/day versus 8 hours/day for consumer SSDs. Again, this seems like a good match for the TiVo Bolt. Also, these enterprise-class SSDs have much higher endurance ratings than their consumer-grade counterparts.

This all seems very good for the idea of using these enterprise-class SSDs in a TiVo, so where is the rub? If there is one (and I'm not sure there is), I would have to say it has to do with how JEDEC defines the end of life of these SSDs. In fact, the failure criteria for enterprise and consumer SSDs are different, as can also be seen on page 26 of that JEDEC presentation. Notably, the end-of-life criterion for data retention for consumer-grade SSDs is one year, but for *enterprise-level SSDs it is only three months!
*
On page 27 of the presentation they show two tables which include the MODELED number of WEEKS of data retention remaining at the end of life of SSDs. The top table shows remaining data retention for a consumer-grade SSD at the end of its life and the bottom table shows it for an enterprise-grade SSD. The green boxes show the measurement criteria for those two classes of SSDs.

So, what to make of all of this?

*Here are some of my conclusions based on the data in this presentation:*
- Most importantly, one of the ways that SSDs degrade is in their ability to retain the data which has been written to them.
- I don't see any information about how long SSDs retain data when new, but it seems that will depend upon the temperature at which the data was written.
- One of the reasons enterprise-class SSDs have higher endurance ratings is that their end-of-life criterion for data retention is more lax than is the one for consumer-grade SSDs. You can see this by looking at the two tables on page 27 of the presentation: The end-of-life consumer SSD still has 52 weeks of data retention by the enterprise criterion while *the end-of-life enterprise SSD only has 10 weeks (2.5 months!) of data retention by the consumer criterion*.
- It seems clear that a KUID recording on an SSD cannot simply be written and left there for the years that the user might expect it to be available. For instance, if we assume a 55-degree operating temperature for the end-of-life enterprise-class SSD, you can see that *anything written on such a degraded unit must be reread and rewritten within two weeks or the information will be lost* (top right cell in enterprise chart).
- For a 24-hour-per-day TiVo application (I understand this is NOT what the OP is doing), the temperature of the SSD will be fairly constant. As such, it seems that for the purpose of data retention while operating, cooler temperatures are preferred since storage and write temperatures are the same in that case (see the bottom-left to top-right diagonal cells).

*All this brings up the following questions in my mind:*
- Does the SSD firmware interpolate into a set of these degradation tables while operating to determine how often to reread and rewrite data before it gets lost, based on total data written and temperature? I assume that it would have to. If it only used the temperature information for that purpose, then it would need to rewrite data too frequently, IMO.
- Does operation of the SSD at high temperature cause it to have more write endurance? According to this source, it does:


Kristian Vättö at AnandTech said:


> Because higher temperature makes the silicon more conductive, the flow of current is higher during program/erase operation and causes less stress on the tunnel oxide, improving the endurance of the cell because endurance is practically limited by tunnel oxide's ability to hold the electrons inside the floating gate.


The obvious implication is that it would be best to keep your SSD buttoned up in your Bolt and running hot to improve its endurance. Too bad everything else in the box will suffer!
- I wonder at what percentage of life the OP's SSD will have a powered-off shelf life of only one year like a consumer-grade unit would have at end of life.
- Would a consumer-grade SSD have the same (or better?) life as an enterprise-grade SSD in a TiVo application? I ask this because the Micron 5210 series SSD the OP chose uses 4-bits-per-cell technology (it must write and read 16 different charge levels in each cell). This is equivalent to the Samsung QVO series, which is their lowest-grade consumer product. The Samsung 860 EVO series uses 3 bits per cell, meaning that it only has to differentiate between 8 voltage levels while the Samsung 860 PRO uses only 2 bits per cell, or 4 different voltage levels. I would think the Samsung 860 Pro would have both much more endurance AND much better data retention.

But I wonder if TiVo has already rendered this entire discussion moot by preventing SSDs from being used in Bolts running TE4. Does anyone have an SSD running in a TE4 Bolt? If so, please let us know your experience.

Thoughts?


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## RegGuheert

RegGuheert said:


> But I wonder if TiVo has already rendered this entire discussion moot by preventing SSDs from being used in Bolts running TE4. Does anyone have an SSD running in a TE4 Bolt?  If so, please let us know your experience.


Sure enough, I put a 2TB Samsung 860 EVO into my TiVo Bolt OTA and it stuck at "STARTING UP".

It seemed like it would be a pretty good fit...


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## zombiephysicist

RegGuheert said:


> First, I would like to say "Thank you" for doing this experiment and for reporting the results, including updates!
> 
> You have chosen to use an enterprise-class SSD in your TiVo and it appears that you are using about 1% of the unit's endurance each month. Endurance ratings for enterprise-class SSDs are different than those for consumer-grade products, and, in fact, they seem to more closely match the operating environment seen inside the Bolt's case. Specifically, the JEDEC SSD standards organization defines the enterprise operating temperature to be 55°C versus 40°C for consumer grade SSDs, as can be seen on page 26 of this presentation by the then-acting chairman of the SSD standards committee. In addition, the enterprise-grade SSDs ratings are made by operating the units 24 hours/day versus 8 hours/day for consumer SSDs. Again, this seems like a good match for the TiVo Bolt. Also, these enterprise-class SSDs have much higher endurance ratings than their consumer-grade counterparts.
> 
> This all seems very good for the idea of using these enterprise-class SSDs in a TiVo, so where is the rub? If there is one (and I'm not sure there is), I would have to say it has to do with how JEDEC defines the end of life of these SSDs. In fact, the failure criteria for enterprise and consumer SSDs are different, as can also be seen on page 26 of that JEDEC presentation. Notably, the end-of-life criterion for data retention for consumer-grade SSDs is one year, but for *enterprise-level SSDs it is only three months!
> *
> On page 27 of the presentation they show two tables which include the MODELED number of WEEKS of data retention remaining at the end of life of SSDs. The top table shows remaining data retention for a consumer-grade SSD at the end of its life and the bottom table shows it for an enterprise-grade SSD. The green boxes show the measurement criteria for those two classes of SSDs.
> 
> So, what to make of all of this?
> 
> *Here are some of my conclusions based on the data in this presentation:*
> - Most importantly, one of the ways that SSDs degrade is in their ability to retain the data which has been written to them.
> - I don't see any information about how long SSDs retain data when new, but it seems that will depend upon the temperature at which the data was written.
> - One of the reasons enterprise-class SSDs have higher endurance ratings is that their end-of-life criterion for data retention is more lax than is the one for consumer-grade SSDs. You can see this by looking at the two tables on page 27 of the presentation: The end-of-life consumer SSD still has 52 weeks of data retention by the enterprise criterion while *the end-of-life enterprise SSD only has 10 weeks (2.5 months!) of data retention by the consumer criterion*.
> - It seems clear that a KUID recording on an SSD cannot simply be written and left there for the years that the user might expect it to be available. For instance, if we assume a 55-degree operating temperature for the end-of-life enterprise-class SSD, you can see that *anything written on such a degraded unit must be reread and rewritten within two weeks or the information will be lost* (top right cell in enterprise chart).
> - For a 24-hour-per-day TiVo application (I understand this is NOT what the OP is doing), the temperature of the SSD will be fairly constant. As such, it seems that for the purpose of data retention while operating, cooler temperatures are preferred since storage and write temperatures are the same in that case (see the bottom-left to top-right diagonal cells).
> 
> *All this brings up the following questions in my mind:*
> - Does the SSD firmware interpolate into a set of these degradation tables while operating to determine how often to reread and rewrite data before it gets lost, based on total data written and temperature? I assume that it would have to. If it only used the temperature information for that purpose, then it would need to rewrite data too frequently, IMO.
> - Does operation of the SSD at high temperature cause it to have more write endurance? According to this source, it does:The obvious implication is that it would be best to keep your SSD buttoned up in your Bolt and running hot to improve its endurance. Too bad everything else in the box will suffer!
> - I wonder at what percentage of life the OP's SSD will have a powered-off shelf life of only one year like a consumer-grade unit would have at end of life.
> - Would a consumer-grade SSD have the same (or better?) life as an enterprise-grade SSD in a TiVo application? I ask this because the Micron 5210 series SSD the OP chose uses 4-bits-per-cell technology (it must write and read 16 different charge levels in each cell). This is equivalent to the Samsung QVO series, which is their lowest-grade consumer product. The Samsung 860 EVO series uses 3 bits per cell, meaning that it only has to differentiate between 8 voltage levels while the Samsung 860 PRO uses only 2 bits per cell, or 4 different voltage levels. I would think the Samsung 860 Pro would have both much more endurance AND much better data retention.
> 
> But I wonder if TiVo has already rendered this entire discussion moot by preventing SSDs from being used in Bolts running TE4. Does anyone have an SSD running in a TE4 Bolt? If so, please let us know your experience.
> 
> Thoughts?


Wow, great post with a lot of good issues brought up. I won't pretend to be able to answer all your questions, but will make some points that I think are relevant.

First, my drive is writing a lot more than its 13% capacity would indicate. I put my power savings on the lowest level of power savings, meaning it won't write 6 live streams 24/7, but it will and does save 'suggestions' which means, my drive has been 100% at capacity for quite a while. And deleting suggestions and recording new suggestions, as well as my wish lists. So there is reasonable turnover data wise, on the drive. That said, with only 13% of my TiVo devoted to things I care about, it's likely much more difficult to notice errors that might crop up, more predominately on the 87% of the "suggestions" content.

Second, I think, for most TiVo users, the powered-off shelf life of an SSD, which is far shorter for most SSDs than magnetic drives, is not too relevant, as the drive will spend it's useful life powered on and working in the TiVo, and at it's end of life, it's contents will be transferred, and the drive will either be junk or get a 2ndary life in another application.

The QVO is less ideal, I agree, but on the other hand, the enterprise level endurance of the drives seems fine to handle it, so on a bang/buck level, I'm happy with it. Right now, I think the drive has done way way way way better than the 5TB magnetic spinner I used, that had more 'hiccups' at this point in time than this SSD. Which is kind of surprising.

Also, as we move to 4k over air and 8k streaming, I suspect future recordings will be not in MPEG2 (which frankly isn't that great) and move to H264/265. I think the way higher compression there may be more subject to errors cropping up. Who knows, what it will mean. Not sure what it will all mean.

The inability to use TE4 is a serious limitation to be sure. I personally dislike TE4, but I'm sure many others will like it. So, this just may not be an option. On the other hand, I think this experiment is up-ending the old wisdom of "you can't use SSDs on a DVR". Also, I did this upgrade for a friend of mine who has a houseful full of folks beating up his TiVo way more than in mine, and his SSD is holding up as well. His is always 100% full and recording probably 5x as intently (since he has 5 more people in his home using it).

Anyway, thanks for the fun discussion. Lot of cool issues.


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## RegGuheert

zombiephysicist said:


> First, my drive is writing a lot more than its 13% capacity would indicate.


Perhaps I have misunderstood: I thought that you were saying the drive was reporting that 13% of its rated durability had been used, but it sounds like you are saying that your drive is 13% full. Can you please clarify which one is the case? TIA!

For reference, the Samsung 860 EVO 1TB in the laptop I am using right now has a write durability rating in TBW (Total Bytes Written) of 600TB. I can see using their Windows utility called Samsung Magician that the TBW for this drive is currently 7.8TB. In other words, I have used 1.3% of the life of the drive. I can also get this same information by reading the S.M.A.R.T information for the drive, but it is reported differently as "Total LBAs Written", currently 16715636385.

Since it seems you do not actually have that data for your SSD, we could estimate the worst-case numbers for a 6-tuner Bolt. Assuming six HD streams averaging about 2GB/hour, that would equate to about 50GB/day/tuner or 300GB/day. You happen to have the ONE SSD family from Micron which has durability specifications which can best be described as "wonky", but even if I use the ABSOLUTE lowest durability rating of 0.05 DWPD (Drive Writes Per Day) from the datasheet, your drive is warranted to work for five years even if you write 384 GB to it each an every day.

Based on that, if the tuners are running 24 hours per day, you would eat up about 15 percent of the drive's (absolute minimum specified) life each year. If you only operated the drive about 12 hours per day, you would use no more than about 8% per year.


zombiephysicist said:


> Second, I think, for most TiVo users, the powered-off shelf life of an SSD, which is far shorter for most SSDs than magnetic drives, is not too relevant, as the drive will spend it's useful life powered on and working in the TiVo, and at it's end of life, it's contents will be transferred, and the drive will either be junk or get a 2ndary life in another application.


That's certainly true...until it isn't. Imagine someone who moves or puts their old TiVo in a seasonal house or cabin. In those cases, it would be nice to have the unit retain its data. Fortunately, the Bolt should be able to reformat the drive in those cases since the firmware is NOT on the drive.


zombiephysicist said:


> The inability to use TE4 is a serious limitation to be sure. I personally dislike TE4, but I'm sure many others will like it. So, this just may not be an option. On the other hand, I think this experiment is up-ending the old wisdom of "you can't use SSDs on a DVR".


Except for the fact that I literally CAN'T use SSDs in my TiVo Bolt OTA.


zombiephysicist said:


> Anyway, thanks for the fun discussion. Lot of cool issues.


Likewise! I look forward to future updates from you on your drive.


----------



## zombiephysicist

Sorry, yea the 13% is what the TiVo reports as used. Meaning 13% of its capacity is used to store my shows. In reality, 100% of its capacity is holding shows, the other 87% being suggestions. I'm reporting the capacity as a rough and not so great proxy for intensity of use. My friend's TiVo that I upgraded just like mine, it gets used really heavily and is showing 100% full with their shows (they have a large household). It gets used more intensely. So far it's working well for them too, and they chewed threw a couple of spinning hard drives before the SSD. So surprisingly, this SSD is proving more robust than the spinners.

Thank you very much for the calculation. I made some similar rough calculations and arrived at roughly the same amount. However, since I'm using the power saver settings so the tuners are NOT recording live TV while the TiVo is in sleep mode, it only records my season passes and suggestions, I suspect the drive will last for as long as the TiVo itself... probably past 10 years. I'll likely have some other TiVo or device by then I would suspect.


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## zombiephysicist

So we’re a year in, 12 months down, and all is well, knock wood. I think based on all the common wisdom of ssds burning out on Dvr applications in months, this is a rousing success. My drive reports 14% usage. 

My friend, for whom I also upgraded to the same ssd, he’s at 100% capacity and beats the snot out of it. His device is working better and more reliably than with the original 3tb spinner which exhibited some problems from his heavy use.

I’ll keep reporting on wear, perhaps less frequently for a while, but it seems to me, at least with the settings I’m using, and the drive I picked, this is the future, even for dvrs. 

hoping this thread is useful for others down the line.


----------



## tommage1

zombiephysicist said:


> So we're a year in, 12 months down, and all is well, knock wood. I think based on all the common wisdom of ssds burning out on Dvr applications in months, this is a rousing success. My drive reports 14% usage.


Remember the 14% usage reported is only the recordings in the now playing list. Whatever is in the recently deleted folder is also usage on the drive but is not included in the reported 14%. After a year you might be running on a full drive yourself. You can tell, when a new recording is made if something gets permanently deleted in the recently deleted folder your drive is full. Most users who have been using their Tivo for a decent amount of time are probably always running on a full drive. Only way they would not be is if they go into the recently deleted folder and manually permanently delete items occasionally.


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## zombiephysicist

tommage1 said:


> Remember the 14% usage reported is only the recordings in the now playing list. Whatever is in the recently deleted folder is also usage on the drive but is not included in the reported 14%. After a year you might be running on a full drive yourself. You can tell, when a new recording is made if something gets permanently deleted in the recently deleted folder your drive is full. Most users who have been using their Tivo for a decent amount of time are probably always running on a full drive. Only way they would not be is if they go into the recently deleted folder and manually permanently delete items occasionally.


I think I mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread that I have TiVo suggestions turned on with thousands of suggestions, so in fact, my drive is actually 100% full (mostly with suggestions that get deleted and re-recorded regularly). So your point is spot on.


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## tommage1

zombiephysicist said:


> I think I mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread that I have TiVo suggestions turned on with thousands of suggestions, so in fact, my drive is actually 100% full (mostly with suggestions that get deleted and re-recorded regularly). So your point is spot on.


That's very good news. Since drive constantly full a great test  Large size SSDs will come down in price, some day might see 100TB SSD, heck they can fit 1TB on a micro SD card now, maybe more, that was 2019.


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## ncbill

tommage1 said:


> That's very good news. Since drive constantly full a great test  Large size SSDs will come down in price, some day might see 100TB SSD, heck they can fit 1TB on a micro SD card now, maybe more, that was 2019.


I have a plug-in slot caed for my Apple //e that takes SD cards...and one from years ago that takes CF cards.


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## tommage1

ncbill said:


> I have a plug-in slot caed for my Apple //e that takes SD cards...and one from years ago that takes CF cards.


I still have a //e and a C128D I use occasionally. I think there is an SD card adapter for the 128D (or C64/regular 128) also. Have not purchased them yet, maybe one of these days. Some games for the 64/128 took FOREVER to load and when swapping disks, Phantasie 1 and 2 come to mind..................


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## tommage1

RegGuheert said:


> The obvious implication is that it would be best to keep your SSD buttoned up in your Bolt and running hot to improve its endurance. Too bad everything else in the box will suffer!


Put it in an external enclosure and run a heater on it?


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## zombiephysicist

tommage1 said:


> Put it in an external enclosure and run a heater on it?


Has heat been an issue in the bolt? I haven't had an issue with my bolt, although I've taken the unusual step of standing my bolt on it's side. It looks a bit like a hockey stick standing up from its handle with the bent part going off in the air like a tree branch.

I'm not sure what the sources of heat are, but I guess the heat in that configuration would rise into the hockey stick part where the drive is, away from the CPU part of the TiVo. Not sure what the temperature of the drive is. Is there someway to tell somewhere on some info screen in the TiVo?


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## tommage1

zombiephysicist said:


> Has heat been an issue in the bolt? I haven't had an issue with my bolt, although I've taken the unusual step of standing my bolt on it's side. It looks a bit like a hockey stick standing up from its handle with the bent part going off in the air like a tree branch.


Bolts do run hot compared to other model Tivos. It's not the drive, I use a 3.5 in an external enclosure, you would think the MB temp of the Bolt would drop with that configuration but for me only a degree or two. So most of the heat must come from the board/chips/CPU?


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## High Technology

Now that they are making WD Red 2.5" SSDs, I am tempted to try one the next time my Bolt+ drive dies. https://www.westerndigital.com/products/internal-drives/wd-red-ssd

I've been through 2 TiVo returns now (I have 2 devices), and they last about 2 years each. My main one is now about a year old, and the other one was just replaced last week.

I have no idea if these will work on TE4, but cycling out these spinners in a device design that clearly put form over functionality is really bad.


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## zombiephysicist

15months down. at 20%. Knock wood, all seems ok.

My friend who I did the upgrade for, is still at 100% usage. He beats the snot out of his. All seems ok, better than the original drive ever was. Also around 15months of usage.


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## xylker

zombiephysicist said:


> 15months down. at 20%. Knock wood, all seems ok.
> 
> My friend who I did the upgrade for, is still at 100% usage. He beats the snot out of his. All seems ok, better than the original drive ever was. Also around 15months of usage.


I think the more useful metric here would be to remove the drive, then run Micron's tools on it to discover what the endurance is reported to be from their tool.
https://www.micron.com/products/ssd/storage-executive-software


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## zombiephysicist

xylker said:


> I think the more useful metric here would be to remove the drive, then run Micron's tools on it to discover what the endurance is reported to be from their tool.
> https://www.micron.com/products/ssd/storage-executive-software


Agreed. But, sorry, not realistic for our use to pull this apart any time soon.


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## 3 Cushion John

justen_m said:


> Not that surprising. e.g. Back in the Series 3 time frame, TiVO<->PC file transfers were limited to around 12Mbps. The network was 100Mbps, the HDD even faster. The bottleneck was the slow-ass CPU on the TiVo. I suspect something similar here. The drive isn't the bottleneck. It's either the internal bus bandwidth or the CPU itself, depending on how data is copied from the drive buffer to main memory. Or, when fast forwarding, the computations required to index the frames in the data stream. Shrug. Same goes for boot times. The CPU is probably pegged when booting from a HDD, so an SSD won't make much of a difference. PCs, with fast Intel/AMD CPUs see a huge improvement, but not devices running from a relatively slow, cheap SoCs.


Got both, 5T Edge and 5T bolt. The edge does seem a little faster with copying one to the other. The other bottle neck I don't have is: I have my home wired ethernet to every room with gigabit. So transfer times between tivos and downloading to pc is very fast. I'll be upgrading my other bolt the edge soon as a sale comes on. 2 edges will make my day. And since the edge takes the 5T and formats it on the fly and gives more space (15-20% more) I won't have to use mfstools any more. at least for the foreseeable future.


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## zombiephysicist

17 months and all seems well. I think at 25% usage.


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## tommage1

zombiephysicist said:


> 17 months and all seems well. I think at 25% usage.


Sounds good. Just FYI there is a "new" TE4 now. Seems to accept and format any drive (CMR or SMR) and any size, full format (seen up to 14TB in an Edge, at least 4TB in a Bolt, probably more, maybe same as Edge) Soooooo, if you ever pick up another of these SSDs maybe flip in a TE4 Bolt or Roamio and see what happens............. Your test is TE3 correct, did not work with TE4 at the time the project was started?


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## multiple

tommage1 said:


> Sounds good. Just FYI there is a "new" TE4 now. Seems to accept and format any drive (CMR or SMR) and any size, full format (seen up to 14TB in an Edge, at least 4TB in a Bolt, probably more, maybe same as Edge) Soooooo, if you ever pick up another of these SSDs maybe flip in a TE4 Bolt or Roamio and see what happens............. Your test is TE3 correct, did not work with TE4 at the time the project was started?


This is excellent news. I now have a Bolt that I don't mind wiping out. I'll give it a try this weekend. I had 4 of these SSDs waiting to be used across my TiVos, that I've been temporally using in my NAS. They might only have a few days of use on them.

Tommage1, is there a thread on this new release? To make sure I have the correct version, do you know the version number of TE4 needed before I begin the upgrade. .


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## jmbach

multiple said:


> This is excellent news. I now have a Bolt that I don't mind wiping out. I'll give it a try this weekend. I had 4 of these SSDs waiting to be used across my TiVos, that I've been temporally using in my NAS. They might only have a few days of use on them.
> 
> Tommage1, is there a thread on this new release? To make sure I have the correct version, do you know the version number of TE4 needed before I begin the upgrade. .


I have tried a Bolt with the latest TE4 with different drives.

Although the Bolt can now format large drives successfully, it still cannot use drives that previously did not work under TE4 that I have available to test.

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk


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## zombiephysicist

tommage1 said:


> Sounds good. Just FYI there is a "new" TE4 now. Seems to accept and format any drive (CMR or SMR) and any size, full format (seen up to 14TB in an Edge, at least 4TB in a Bolt, probably more, maybe same as Edge) Soooooo, if you ever pick up another of these SSDs maybe flip in a TE4 Bolt or Roamio and see what happens............. Your test is TE3 correct, did not work with TE4 at the time the project was started?


Mine is TE3. I'm not a fan of TE4 so never tried. Great to know they finally made it format any size drive. That's so great!


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## zombiephysicist

jmbach said:


> I have tried a Bolt with the latest TE4 with different drives.
> 
> Although the Bolt can now format large drives successfully, it still cannot use drives that previously did not work under TE4 that I have available to test.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk


Shame it still doesn't work with some drives. I've taken this decently far. Hopefully someone else will take it a step further and share with the community.


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## tommage1

multiple said:


> Tommage1, is there a thread on this new release? To make sure I have the correct version, do you know the version number of TE4 needed before I begin the upgrade. .


Not really, just pieced together by reading multiple posts over the past few months. And as JMBach reports while Bolt will format any size drive now the drives that did not work in the past still don't work (at least the ones he has to try I assume). Only thing I can say almost for sure is the EDGE on TE4 has formatted any drive used with it, CMR or SMR, 2.5 or 3.5. With the Bolt it has formatted some 4TB completely, don't know the model numbers or CMR vs SMR. I THINK one of the 4TB was 2.5 so that would pretty much have to be SMR.


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## kdmorse

Has anyone put together a known good/bad list of SSD's (good being defined as "works in both TE3 and TE4", I don't care so much about auto formatting as that can be side-stepped)? My initial searching hasn't turned anything up. But I do know people are continuing to assume Samsungs are a safe answer, and continuing to be disappointed when they don't boot.


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## zombiephysicist

So 18 months... 1.5yrs... all seems well.


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## multiple

Finally got around to testing out my 7.68TB drive and it still won't boot on a Bolt with TE4. The hard drive light was flashing, so I was hopeful it was formatting the drive, but it just hangs. One interesting thing to note, I could re-install the prior working drive and the data on that drive remained intact.


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## krkaufman

multiple said:


> I could re-install the prior working drive and the data on that drive remained intact.


I wonder if this result would be different were the BOLT able to fully boot-up using the 7.68TB drive.


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## jmbach

krkaufman said:


> I wonder if this result would be different were the BOLT able to fully boot-up using the 7.68TB drive.


So as long as the Bolt does not format a drive, the list of recordings and the ability to access them remains.

This becomes problematic when swapping drives because recordings will be added to the list. So if you copy and expand your original drive and place the new drive in the Bolt and record several shows, the list of shows will have the list from the original drive plus the shows recorded on the new drive. Swap in the original drive and you will have the list from the original drive plus the shows recorded from the new drive, however, you will not be able to access those shows that were only recorded on the new drive. Now record a few more shows on the original drive. Now we have the original list of shows from the original drive, shows recorded on the new drive, (which we cannot access) plus the newly recorded shows we just did on the original drive. Swap in the new drive and the list of shows includes the original list from the original drive, the shows recorded on the new drive (which we now can access), and the recently recorded shows on the original drive (which we cannot access).

After a while you have a big mess and headache.

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk


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## multiple

Does anyone know if the Edge box has any of the same issues with this drive or any of the other Bolt+TE4 problematic drives?

I might have to order one to try it out, but I don't want to get one if the issue is known to be present on Edge.


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## zombiephysicist

I wonder if you successfully formatted this drive under TE3, fresh install, and then hear transplant it into TE4 would the bolt then be able to make use of it as a successfully set up drive?


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## multiple

zombiephysicist said:


> I wonder if you successfully formatted this drive under TE3, fresh install, and then hear transplant it into TE4 would the bolt then be able to make use of it as a successfully set up drive?


That experiment was tried by myself and others and it does not help. The issue is inside the Bolt firmware, it just refuses to allow access to these affected drives and the boot process is halted. I've had 4 Bolts on several different drives (all drives upgraded on TE3) and once this bad code was added into TE4, the drives just refused to boot again. I went back and forth to TE3 and back to TE4 multiple times, and each time I upgraded to TE4 the Bolt refused to boot.


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## zombiephysicist

We're past 19 months, all seems to be going well for my drive and my friend who I set up at the same time. He really abuses his TiVo with far far greater use. So far these drives seem to be working better than our last mechanical drives.


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## zombiephysicist

zombiephysicist said:


> We're past 19 months, all seems to be going well for my drive and my friend who I set up at the same time. He really abuses his TiVo with far far greater use. So far these drives seem to be working better than our last mechanical drives.


21 months and counting...


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## zombiephysicist

23 months and counting


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## zombiephysicist

Alright it’s basically been 2 years. Drive is running great. I think at this point I’ve put to rest that you can’t use an ssd for a dvr. This drive works better than the native spinner that came with the TiVo.

My friends machine is also doing great and it’s basically been hammering it under heavy use and at 100% capacity and working constantly for 2 years.

Fingers crossed it will get to year 3+


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## bradenmcg

zombiephysicist said:


> Alright it's basically been 2 years. Drive is running great. I think at this point I've put to rest that you can't use an ssd for a dvr. This drive works better than the native spinner that came with the TiVo.
> 
> My friends machine is also doing great and it's basically been hammering it under heavy use and at 100% capacity and working constantly for 2 years.
> 
> Fingers crossed it will get to year 3+


I find this thread super interesting, but wanted to correct the impression here that your friend's "100% capacity" is in any way different from your "12% usage" or whatever.

If you have suggestions turned on, your "churn" is in all likelihood *much* higher than your friend's. Even assuming they have suggestions going as well... suggestions only record in free space. If you load a drive to "100%" with user content, then it won't record suggestions anymore. It _is_ going to flog the "spare" section that it would use for live TV buffering a lot harder though, because if the rest of the disk is all full, it can't spread the wear out more evenly across the blocks.

Thing is, whether it's your friend's "100% full" Tivo, or yours that is 12% + 88% suggestions... lack of free space, plus writes, make an SSD die more quickly. If you can keep space free, the wear leveling algorithms can work better with more free blocks to play with. One of the "tricks" of enterprise SSD is that they simply have more "overprovisioning" / spare blocks to go around. That 7.68TB Micron drive is likely to be at least 8TB nominal, possibly even 9 or 10TB. When they have more spare blocks, they can spread the "hot spots" out some more to help everything last longer.

Another thing worth noting, the 7.68TB SSDs are all QLC to my knowledge. This allows them to get the higher capacities without requiring a back-alley kidney surgery to afford. Problem with QLC is that it has far less write endurance than every SSD tech that has come before.

You and your friend are both sitting on ticking time-bombs. But if that bomb takes 3-5 years to go off, and you were only getting 1-2 years out of 2.5" spinning rust... who are any of us to judge, especially if the price is comparable? Heck, they don't even make 2.5" spinners larger than 4-6TB last I knew (and even those I think are extra thick?), so a 7.68TB SSD definitely does check a lot of boxes..

The only real sad part is that I doubt there are any noticeable performance increases from using the SSD.

I'd be *really* curious to see what a drive diagnostic / SMART dump says about the TBW and wear percentage of the drives at this point, but I understand it's no fun to yank and hook up to a computer to check. You shouldn't lose anything (other than your time) by doing it though. If you were interested in trying to extend the life of the SSDs, turning suggestions _off_, and also getting the Tivo into "standby" whenever possible (to cut down on the constant 30min buffer writing) would be ideal.


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## zombiephysicist

So it's been about 29 months and all is great for both our machines. His is still constantly churning with 5 people in his home maxing it out like crazy. We both have suggestions on as well. So knock wood, that's already better than other spinners that we got. 

I agree, if we turned suggestions off we would get even more life out of these drives. But at roughly 2.5years of constant hard use, it seems like our gamble was well played.


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## zombiephysicist

bradenmcg said:


> I find this thread super interesting, but wanted to correct the impression here that your friend's "100% capacity" is in any way different from your "12% usage" or whatever.
> 
> If you have suggestions turned on, your "churn" is in all likelihood *much* higher than your friend's. Even assuming they have suggestions going as well... suggestions only record in free space. If you load a drive to "100%" with user content, then it won't record suggestions anymore. It _is_ going to flog the "spare" section that it would use for live TV buffering a lot harder though, because if the rest of the disk is all full, it can't spread the wear out more evenly across the blocks.
> 
> Thing is, whether it's your friend's "100% full" Tivo, or yours that is 12% + 88% suggestions... lack of free space, plus writes, make an SSD die more quickly. If you can keep space free, the wear leveling algorithms can work better with more free blocks to play with. One of the "tricks" of enterprise SSD is that they simply have more "overprovisioning" / spare blocks to go around. That 7.68TB Micron drive is likely to be at least 8TB nominal, possibly even 9 or 10TB. When they have more spare blocks, they can spread the "hot spots" out some more to help everything last longer.
> 
> Another thing worth noting, the 7.68TB SSDs are all QLC to my knowledge. This allows them to get the higher capacities without requiring a back-alley kidney surgery to afford. Problem with QLC is that it has far less write endurance than every SSD tech that has come before.
> 
> You and your friend are both sitting on ticking time-bombs. But if that bomb takes 3-5 years to go off, and you were only getting 1-2 years out of 2.5" spinning rust... who are any of us to judge, especially if the price is comparable? Heck, they don't even make 2.5" spinners larger than 4-6TB last I knew (and even those I think are extra thick?), so a 7.68TB SSD definitely does check a lot of boxes..
> 
> The only real sad part is that I doubt there are any noticeable performance increases from using the SSD.
> 
> I'd be *really* curious to see what a drive diagnostic / SMART dump says about the TBW and wear percentage of the drives at this point, but I understand it's no fun to yank and hook up to a computer to check. You shouldn't lose anything (other than your time) by doing it though. If you were interested in trying to extend the life of the SSDs, turning suggestions _off_, and also getting the Tivo into "standby" whenever possible (to cut down on the constant 30min buffer writing) would be ideal.


By the way, bot of us have had our TivOs set to "Low" standby mode. In that mode TiVo suggestions are still recorded, however, there is no 30min buffer being recorded. I think that buffer recording is the biggest killer of drivers. Both SSD and spinner.


----------



## zombiephysicist

31 months and no issues for either me or my friend.


----------



## zombiephysicist

A bit over 34 months. all is well


----------



## rmd3003

I know it's about Bolt, but what about Edge? I'm thinking changing 2TB HD to 4TB Samsung EVO SSD. It has 2400 TBW endurance rating. Do I just swap it? Or I need to apply some software massaging? So my math is - 6 tuners running 24x7 at 6GB/hour. That's about 1TB/day (it's less but I round it). At 2,400TBW is should survive at least 6.5 years. Am I missing something? Well, except wasting a lot of money if it doesn't work


----------



## tommage1

rmd3003 said:


> I know it's about Bolt, but what about Edge? I'm thinking changing 2TB HD to 4TB Samsung EVO SSD. It has 2400 TBW endurance rating. Do I just swap it? Or I need to apply some software massaging? So my math is - 6 tuners running 24x7 at 6GB/hour. That's about 1TB/day (it's less but I round it). At 2,400TBW is should survive at least 6.5 years. Am I missing something? Well, except wasting a lot of money if it doesn't work


What you may be missing is the Edge is TE4 only. I personally know of no SSD that works with TE4 period, though I could be wrong. The tests being run on large SSD are TE3.


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## tommage1

DELETED


----------



## rmd3003

tommage1 said:


> What you may be missing is the Edge is TE4 only. I personally know of no SSD that works with TE4 period, though I could be wrong. The tests being run on large SSD are TE3.


Oh, I guess I missed this part. So, no upgrade for me unless I go with external disk drive.
Thanks


----------



## mdavej

Internal hard drives do still exist. Why not one of those. Or better yet, delete some old recordings once in a while.


----------



## tommage1

rmd3003 said:


> Oh, I guess I missed this part. So, no upgrade for me unless I go with external disk drive.
> Thanks


External is the way to go. As you would be using a 3.5" drive, which can last 5-10 years, 2.5" drives usually only last 2-3 years in a Tivo. And very difficult to find CMR 2.5", even if you do 3TB is the largest 2.5" CMR drive ever made. Many 3.5" capacities available (CMR, do not use SMR). I personally would stick with 3-4TB, there have been problems with boot loops when connected to internet with really large drives (10-14TB for me personally). 4 for 4 developed the problem, no one has REALLY figured out what causes it though I did a lot of tests. You can probably find threads about the internet connected boot loops. Mine were/are all running TE3, not sure if TE4 can develop the same problem.


----------



## rmd3003

tommage1 said:


> External is the way to go. As you would be using a 3.5" drive, which can last 5-10 years, 2.5" drives usually only last 2-3 years in a Tivo. And very difficult to find CMR 2.5", even if you do 3TB is the largest 2.5" CMR drive ever made. Many 3.5" capacities available (CMR, do not use SMR). I personally would stick with 3-4TB, there have been problems with boot loops when connected to internet with really large drives (10-14TB for me personally). 4 for 4 developed the problem, no one has REALLY figured out what causes it though I did a lot of tests. You can probably find threads about the internet connected boot loops. Mine were/are all running TE3, not sure if TE4 can develop the same problem.


Thanks, so be it. External is the way to go.


----------



## zombiephysicist

So it's been over 3 years (almost 37 months) of our SSDs cooking inside our bolts with no issues for both myself and my friend.

My friend's machine is always 100% full, and basically constantly recording with a family of 5 beating the crap out of it. My TiVo has been getting less and less use, and I'm basically getting ready to pull the plug and go full streaming I guess. I hate the Spectrum tuning adapter, It craps out too much. Worked so much better with FiOS but do not have that option here.

I think I've proven, rather definitively, that an SSD will work great for a DVR. I'll keep running it for a while, but there is a decent chance this may be one of my last posts on this.

Hope it's been helpful for others, if only as a proof of concept.

TiVo on TiVo brothers and sisters!


----------



## krkaufman

tommage1 said:


> I personally would stick with 3-4TB, there have been problems with boot loops when connected to internet with really large drives (10-14TB for me personally). 4 for 4 developed the problem, no one has REALLY figured out what causes it though I did a lot of tests.


Did you ever try blocking the DVR’s Internet connection at the router (e.g. child blocking)? I know this was a quick fix when I had a 8TB Roamio Pro rebooting. It allowed me to keep using the DVR with our Mini’s, and the rebooting issue didn’t recur after a few days of isolation.


----------



## jmbach

zombiephysicist said:


> So it's been over 3 years (almost 37 months) of our SSDs cooking inside our bolts with no issues for both myself and my friend.
> 
> My friend's machine is always 100% full, and basically constantly recording with a family of 5 beating the crap out of it. My TiVo has been getting less and less use, and I'm basically getting ready to pull the plug and go full streaming I guess. I hate the Spectrum tuning adapter, It craps out too much. Worked so much better with FiOS but do not have that option here.
> 
> I think I've proven, rather definitively, that an SSD will work great for a DVR. I'll keep running it for a while, but there is a decent chance this may be one of my last posts on this.
> 
> Hope it's been helpful for others, if only as a proof of concept.
> 
> TiVo on TiVo brothers and sisters!


If you do switch to streaming and are not going to watch anything on the TiVo, consider one last experiment. “Upgrade” the unit to the new UI experience (TE4) and see if the TiVo and drive survive the “upgrade.” Caveats are: if it does not, you do lose all recordings and if it does you are stuck with the new UI. Reverting back to the old UI loses all recordings. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ms602

tommage1 said:


> What you may be missing is the Edge is TE4 only. I personally know of no SSD that works with TE4 period, though I could be wrong. The tests being run on large SSD are TE3.


I was reading through the forum that TE4 (Hydra) will only work on an HDD.

1) I'm not a fan of TE3, I like TE4 better because I feel the horizontal scroll for multiple channels (on the guide) is more efficient for browsing. To each their own obviously.
2) I'm not a fan of TiVo+ (or the multiple ad banners on the guide) but I feel it's something to live with to get a fully updated TiVo experience. TE3 is only going to get more and more dated and old, TE4 is the only thing advancing.
3) I prefer SSD rather than HDD generally due to lower power consumption. I live off-grid on solar power, and the difference between a spinning drive and an SSD is like 5 watts. When you live on solar power, every watt counts.
4) I spent the whole day today (practically) fiddling with my TiVo and an SSD and I finally got it.
*TE4 booting from an SSD.*

Before I tell you all what I did, is it truly the case that no one here in the TiVo community has successfully installed TE4 to an SSD?


----------



## kdmorse

ms602 said:


> Before I tell you all what I did, is it truly the case that no one here in the TiVo community has successfully installed TE4 to an SSD?


I could certainly be wrong, but it's my inclination that this is a true statement. 

Some HDD's that worked with TE3, but not TE4, magically work with TE4 if independently powered, so that's my guess. But I'm not sure anyone's tried that with a SSD. Several other avenue's of experimentation have been contemplated to try to make drives more compatible with TE4, including firmware tweaks, but I don't think anyone's tried it yet. Ironically, most of the hard core tivo fiddlers vastly prefer TE3, so there's been far less fiddling on TE4 (myself included) than TE3.


----------



## ms602

This is how I was able to successfully boot TE4 (Hydra) from an SSD.

I have a Roamio WD500GB (2.5 OEM HDD from TiVo) running TE4. I plugged in a 512GB SSD (2.5 Sandisk X400), which did not boot, it just hung at the starting up screen (which other people have described). I checked the SSD, and something was changed, as previous existing partitions were removed.

First thing I tried, was to downgrade to TE3 while running from the OEM HDD (WD500GB). Once running TE3, I removed the HDD and installed the SSD. As expected, the DVR started, and TE3 slowly booted. No surprise here, many people have reported that TE3 works fine on an SSD. I didn't try to upgrade from TE3 to TE4 from the SSD (didn't think to bother). Next, I re-installed the HDD and upgraded back to TE4. I then removed the HDD and plugged both the HDD and SSD into my computer. I initiated a full-disk copy (sector-by-sector) using a free disk utility program (diskpart.com). I copied the entire disk contents of the HDD (running TE4) to the SSD. Once complete, I installed the SSD to the Roamio and started it up. At first, it took longer to boot than usual, but eventually booted up fully and ran without any problem. This is the first time I was able to run TE4 from an SSD. Upon subsequent reboots, boot time seems to shorten to something equivalent to booting from HDD. Many tasks were quicker when running from SSD.

What I've learned is there doesn't seem to be any barrier to running TE4 from an SSD. I don't think TiVo intentionally programmed anything to prevent TE4 from running on an SSD. It's possible that the TE4 installer is simply running into some technical barrier that prevents installation.

I recently bought an Edge for Antenna. I didn't realize specialized screws were used on the new DVR, I had to order a specialized driver bit by mail. So I cannot yet confirm whether I can use this same method to work on the latest model. Once I get the driver bit (4.5mm gamebit), I'll open up the Edge and try the same process. I can let ya'll know the outcome.

So in conclusion, TE4 is still unconfirmed to install on an SSD.. but I CAN confirm..
*TE4 is possible to run on an SSD.*


----------



## jmbach

ms602 said:


> This is how I was able to successfully boot TE4 (Hydra) from an SSD.
> 
> I have a Roamio WD500GB (2.5 OEM HDD from TiVo) running TE4. I plugged in a 512GB SSD (2.5 Sandisk X400), which did not boot, it just hung at the starting up screen (which other people have described). I checked the SSD, and something was changed, as previous existing partitions were removed.
> 
> First thing I tried, was to downgrade to TE3 while running from the OEM HDD (WD500GB). Once running TE3, I removed the HDD and installed the SSD. As expected, the DVR started, and TE3 slowly booted. No surprise here, many people have reported that TE3 works fine on an SSD. I didn't try to upgrade from TE3 to TE4 from the SSD (didn't think to bother). Next, I re-installed the HDD and upgraded back to TE4. I then removed the HDD and plugged both the HDD and SSD into my computer. I initiated a full-disk copy (sector-by-sector) using a free disk utility program (diskpart.com). I copied the entire disk contents of the HDD (running TE4) to the SSD. Once complete, I installed the SSD to the Roamio and started it up. At first, it took longer to boot than usual, but eventually booted up fully and ran without any problem. This is the first time I was able to run TE4 from an SSD. Upon subsequent reboots, boot time seems to shorten to something equivalent to booting from HDD. Many tasks were quicker when running from SSD.
> 
> What I've learned is there doesn't seem to be any barrier to running TE4 from an SSD. I don't think TiVo intentionally programmed anything to prevent TE4 from running on an SSD. It's possible that the TE4 installer is simply running into some technical barrier that prevents installation.
> 
> I recently bought an Edge for Antenna. I didn't realize specialized screws were used on the new DVR, I had to buy a specialized driver bit by mail. So I cannot yet confirm whether I can use this same method to work on the latest model. Once I get the driver bit (4.5mm gamebit), I'll open up the Edge and try the same process. I can let ya'll know the outcome.
> 
> So in conclusion, TE4 is still unconfirmed to install on an SSD.. but I CAN confirm..
> *TE4 is possible to run on an SSD.*


Roamios come with 3.5 inch drives unless something changed.

Something must have changed or it is just with Roamios. I tried that same procedure on my Bolt when the issue first surfaced and could not get it to boot. 

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk


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## ms602

jmbach said:


> Roamios come with 3.5 inch drives unless something changed.
> 
> Something must have changed or it is just with Roamios. I tried that same procedure on my Bolt when the issue first surfaced and could not get it to boot.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk


Roamio does have space for a 3.5 inch drive. However, I have one of these.





Amazon.com: ORICO 2.5 SSD SATA to 3.5 Hard Drive Adapter Internal Drive Bay Converter Mounting Bracket Caddy Tray for 7 / 9.5 / 12.5mm 2.5 inch HDD / SSD with SATA III Interface(1125SS) : Electronics


Amazon.com: ORICO 2.5 SSD SATA to 3.5 Hard Drive Adapter Internal Drive Bay Converter Mounting Bracket Caddy Tray for 7 / 9.5 / 12.5mm 2.5 inch HDD / SSD with SATA III Interface(1125SS) : Electronics



www.amazon.com




My Roamio has a Western Digital AV 500GB drive which I removed from a broken Bolt. I've also got a 4GB 2.5 Samsung HDD, as well as the 512GB Sandisk SSD.

The reason I run a 2.5 drive in a 3.5 drive bay, is because 2.5 drives are smaller and consume less power. As I previously said, when you live on solar power -- every watt counts.


----------



## tommage1

ms602 said:


> 4GB 2.5 Samsung HDD


2.5" Samsung 4TB? If so must be an SMR drive, there are no 2.5" CMR drives over 3TB.


----------



## ms602

tommage1 said:


> 2.5" Samsung 4TB? If so must be an SMR drive, there are no 2.5" CMR drives over 3TB.


ST4000LM016 -- Samsung 2.5'' 4TB drive, manufactured by Seagate, made in 2015.
"Perpendicular recording technology." (Page 5)
"Recording method Perpendicular." (Page 8)


https://www.seagate.com/www-content/support-content/samsung/internal-products/spinpoint-m-series/en-us/docs/100772113e.pdf



I haven't run any tests to conclude for sure whether it is PMR or SMR, however it was made in the time when SMR had not yet become standard manufacturing practice. If you want to find out whether it's PMR or SMR, feel free to buy one and test yourself. As for mine, it works, and when it stops, hopefully SSD prices will be more comparable. I plugged an SSD into my Roamio simply to determine if it would work (and it does work). My Roamio will continue to run the 2.5 Samsung 4TB drive. If the SSD works in the Edge (we'll see) then I plan to only ever use an SSD in it.


----------



## kdmorse

tommage1 said:


> 2.5" Samsung 4TB? If so must be an SMR drive, there are no 2.5" CMR drives over 3TB.


If I'm thinking of the right drive, it is indeed PMR, and they accomplished that by adding another two platters, and increasing the physical size of the drive (ie, it will not fit in most laptops). So it's kinda an odd duck, a 2.5inch drive that doesn't fit most 2.5 inch use cases. It was the last of it's kind, because the next revision of that drive (ST4000LM032) went SMR.


----------



## ms602

kdmorse said:


> If I'm thinking of the right drive, it is indeed PMR, and they accomplished that by adding another two platters, and increasing the physical size of the drive (ie, it will not fit in most laptops). So it's kinda an odd duck, a 2.5inch drive that doesn't fit most 2.5 inch use cases. It was the last of it's kind, because the next revision of that drive (ST4000LM032) went SMR.


ST4000LM016 -- Samsung 2.5'' 4TB drive, manufactured by Seagate, made in 2015.
"Perpendicular recording technology." (Page 5)
"Recording method Perpendicular." (Page 8)
https://www.seagate.com/www-content.../spinpoint-m-series/en-us/docs/100772113e.pdf 

I think it was removed from a portable casing, but it was sold to me bare and brand new. It still had the PDF manual stored, in which a portable casing was pictured.


----------



## kdmorse

ms602 said:


> I think it was removed from a portable casing, but it was sold to me bare and brand new. It still had the PDF manual stored, in which a portable casing was pictured.


Yup, it's a popular find among drive shuckers. (Well, it was, back in the day)


----------



## ms602

kdmorse said:


> Yup, it's a popular find among drive shuckers. (Well, it was, back in the day)


I'm really not a fan of hard drives (no pun intended). I'm sick of the lack of reliability. I had a drive circuit board fry once, and it cost me $2500 to have DataDoctors Frankenstein the thing and retrieve the data. I could have possibly YouTube'd some informal tutorial and tried it myself, but I didn't want to chance losing the important data.

Hard drives are heavy, large, fragile, power hungry, and again, unreliable. I can't wait for the day when I can donate or crush all my HDDs and rely only on SSDs. We're getting close to that day. The only hard drives I have around now are backups or the ones I use for TiVo. If I can get an SSD to work reliably on the Edge, that'll be the kicker for me.


----------



## kdmorse

ms602 said:


> I'm really not a fan of hard drives (no pun intended). I'm sick of the lack of reliability. I had a drive circuit board fry once, and it cost me $2500 to have DataDoctors Frankenstein the thing and retrieve the data. I could have possibly YouTube'd some informal tutorial and tried it myself, but I didn't want to chance losing the important data.
> 
> Hard drives are heavy, large, fragile, power hungry, and again, unreliable. I can't wait for the day when I can donate or crush all my HDDs and rely only on SSDs. We're getting close to that day. The only hard drives I have around now are backups or the ones I use for TiVo. If I can get an SSD to work reliably on the Edge, that'll be the kicker for me.


Oh, you're preaching to the choir here. The only place spinning disks have left in my world are mid-range NAS's. NAS's big enough (80TB) that building them out of SSD's would be crazy talk, but budgets not big enough to go with a real all-flash storage system. Anything above or below that niche, there's no place left in the world for spinning rust.

Tivo's are really an edge case, they have a bizarre objection to a small subset of drives in TE3, and a massive swath of drives in TE4, and we just don't yet know why.

I'm sure it's something silly. I used to work with a closed system that you had to use a USB thumb drive to load .ISO's into it. Only a few brands were supported, and it was a weird list. One day I got bored, broken into the thing, and tried to figure out why a SanDisk would work, but not a SanDisk Pro. The damn thing detected drives with a bash shell script that didn't properly "$quote" it's variables, and simply blew a gasket if the device manufacture string contained a space. That was it, most drives would fail to mount, all for want of two ""'s in a shell script.

I'm sure Tivo's problem with "some drives" is something that simple and stupid, and I'm equally sure it'll never get any better.


----------



## ms602

kdmorse said:


> Tivo's are really an edge case, they have a bizarre objection to a small subset of drives in TE3, and a massive swath of drives in TE4, and we just don't yet know why.


I chatted with TiVo support recently, to get a purchased Edge transferred to my account. I asked the agent for the company's official stance on SSDs. All they would say is "it's incompatible" (SSD) and "there's no other information." So I guess the community is just gonna to have to figure it out one slow step at a time. If disk cloning works, then we can possibly derive a process that community members can write a disk image to SSD. One step at a time though, I'll have to see if I can boot an SSD in the Edge first..


----------



## tommage1

ms602 said:


> ST4000LM016 -- Samsung 2.5'' 4TB drive, manufactured by Seagate, made in 2015.
> "Perpendicular recording technology." (Page 5)
> "Recording method Perpendicular." (Page 8)
> 
> 
> https://www.seagate.com/www-content/support-content/samsung/internal-products/spinpoint-m-series/en-us/docs/100772113e.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't run any tests to conclude for sure whether it is PMR or SMR, however it was made in the time when SMR had not yet become standard manufacturing practice. If you want to find out whether it's PMR or SMR, feel free to buy one and test yourself. As for mine, it works, and when it stops, hopefully SSD prices will be more comparable. I plugged an SSD into my Roamio simply to determine if it would work (and it does work). My Roamio will continue to run the 2.5 Samsung 4TB drive. If the SSD works in the Edge (we'll see) then I plan to only ever use an SSD in it.


Well first all all the term "PMR" is kinda generic now, can be CMR or SMR. It is not possible for there to be a CMR 4TB 2.5" drive, could not fit the number of platters needed into the drive based on largest 2.5" CMR platter size. Far as I know. That includes the 15mm case, that one can hold 5 platters (the max for a 2.5), but there are no 800GB CMR platters so would take at least SIX 2.5 CMR platters to reach 4TB. Not possible.

From HDD Platter Capacity website, note, specifically says SMR:

*"800GB/platter Section* (all drives under here use platters that can hold 800GB of data apiece.)
*SpinPoint M10P / Seagate Laptop HDD* (5400RPM, 128MB cache, SATA-600 interface, Advanced Format, Shingled Magnetic Recording, 15mm z-height)


> ST3000LM016 3TB (4/8 [short-stroked])





> ST4000LM016 4TB (5/10)


"

I kinda repeated your test with an SSD. 1TB. In a Bolt. It did format the 1TB with TE3 installed. However I did try to switch it to TE4 from TE3 before doing any clone. It did the download, and got message that was awaiting restart. But when I did the restart it did not install, to the SSD, froze on starting up screen. I put in a regular drive and it did format to TE4 so when trying even though the SSD didn't work the flash drive had updated to TE4. I went ahead and cloned the regular 1TB CMR drive to the SSD. I used a cloning dock which is a bit by bit copy far as I know. Unfortunately I did not get the same result as you, freezes at starting up. So, either for some reason the process likes your SSD but not does like mine. Or mine did not work because I was using a Bolt instead of a Roamio, different setup on the FLASH DRIVE?

The real test for you will be when there is a software update. Since it will mostly being reinstalling TE4 itself, will have to download then there will be the "pending restart" message. If I was you I would try your process again but after letting the Roamio format the SSD to TE3 then try switching to TE4 directly using the "app", see if it works. Skip the clone this time. If it does NOT work then it may not withstand a software upgrade in the future. Also will be interesting to see what happens with your Edge, what is on the flash drive is similar to TE4 on the Bolt?


----------



## tommage1

I do have a Roamio Plus being delivered soon. It is going to be used on a daily basis with 1TB 3.5" CMR drive on TE3. However I may try your process with the clone to SSD after switching it to TE4 temporarily for the test. If it works then maybe your test worked because a Roamio not a Bolt. 

My Bolt, I bought it because Tivo told me it had "all in" service. But when I got it it was acct status 11, evaluation. They did transfer it to my acct intact, ie on my online Tivo acct it says "all in". However on the Tivo itself it still says 11/evaluation. Am not happy as it cannot be returned, am going to use it as a "test" machine only, don't trust 11/evaluation for the future.

A couple tests I HAVE run so far. I found two ESata external devices that work with TE4 on the Bolt. One is a Sabrent (could be similar to the enclosure Weakness uses, looks the same, maybe Weakness uses a Sabrent but removes the Sabrent logo and adds their own?) And I tried a Thermaltake "toaster". it also works with TE4 Bolt. Both hooked up to Sata data port on the Bolt motherboard, then the ESata port on the enclosure.


----------



## ms602

tommage1 said:


> It is not possible for there to be a CMR 4TB 2.5" drive


I don't know what to tell ya. If it's that big a deal to you, feel free to buy one and run some tests yourself. Seagate publicly states that it's a PMR drive, and it boots and runs TiVo TE4 without any problem. Maybe it'll die in the future, but how is that different than any other drive? As I said, I hope it's my last hard drive, and I hope to be running all SSDs eventually.


----------



## tommage1

ms602 said:


> I don't know what to tell ya. If it's that big a deal to you, feel free to buy one and run some tests yourself. Seagate publicly states that it's a PMR drive, and it boots and runs TiVo TE4 without any problem. Maybe it'll die in the future, but how is that different than any other drive? As I said, I hope it's my last hard drive, and I hope to be running all SSDs eventually.


The point is PMR now can mean SMR or CMR. Calling a drive "PMR" NOW means nothing, need to be specific. Before SMR existed there was only PMR. Now that is known as CMR, conventional magnetic recording. PMR now can mean SMR or CMR (the "p" stands for perpendicular) Yours is SMR, there is no doubt. I have one. I hope it works for you for a long time. But since being used in a Roamio which uses 3.5" standard IF it fails maybe get a 3.5 CMR drive (not PMR which is meaningless now, and not SMR). Good luck to ya, am still interested in what happens with the Edge and if the Roamio on TE4 with SSD will withstand a software upgrade or works if you try switching it with the SSD on TE3 directly (no cloning) to TE4, using the app on the Roamio.


----------



## ms602

tommage1 said:


> The point is.. IF it fails maybe get a 3.5 CMR drive (not PMR which is meaningless, and not SMR).


I have a few Western Digital AV 3.5'' drives laying unused. I have a 500GB that was originally in the Roamio, as well as a 3TB and 2TB which are plugged into unused TiVo Premieres. I don't run a 3.5 in the Roamio, because 3.5 drives consume more power (being larger and heavier). If you have electricity wired from a power company, the difference is nill. I live on solar power and every watt counts. I don't see this as a big deal.



tommage1 said:


> ..am still interested in what happens with the Edge and if the Roamio on TE4 with SSD will withstand a software upgrade or works if you try switching it with the SSD on TE3 directly (no cloning) to TE4, using the app on the Roamio.


What I plan to do is follow the same process I did before. That is clone an Edge OEM drive to an SSD and try to boot. If it boots, I'll use it and see how long it lasts. If there's a reboot update, I'll cross that bridge when it comes. Will post when I get a gamebit and test an SSD in the Edge.


----------



## tommage1

ms602 said:


> I have a few Western Digital AV 3.5'' drives laying unused. I have a 500GB that was originally in the Roamio, as well as a 3TB and 2TB which are plugged into unused TiVo Premieres. I don't run a 3.5 in the Roamio, because 3.5 drives consume more power (being larger and heavier). If you have electricity wired from a power company, the difference is nill. I live on solar power and every watt counts. I don't see this as a big deal.


Yep, the 2.5 will use less power. Maybe get yourself a "killawatt" to test how much difference. Would end up a comparison, how much less power used by the 2.5 over time as compared to a 2.5" drive failing much quicker than a 3.5 so have to spend money to replace. However if you have the original 500GB and 3 and 2TB 3.5s available you should be covered. Good luck with the Edge, my Roamio Plus arrived so I will be testing with TE4 SSD for kicks, both letting it try to switch to TE4 from TE3 by itself (the app) or with the clone if that does not work. It's fun to experiment


----------



## tommage1

Wow, I did it. Put 1TB "cheapo" SSD into the TE3 Roamio Plus. It formatted to TE3 and seemed to work, pretty much as expected. I then tried the app on the Roamio to switch to TE4. It did the download, got to pending restart. Which is where I got to on the Bolt. So I restarted. AND IT WORKED. I now have a Roamio Plus on TE4 with a functioning cheapo 1TB SSD. May leave it in there awhile, see how it handles connections etc. Then will go back to TE3 and regular drive since that is what I will be using day to day. This did NOT work with the Bolt. Which leads me to guess can run TE4 with SSD on Roamio but not Bolt (we shall see about Edge when you try). Probably the difference in what is on the flash drive between Roamios and Bolts, flash drive on Bolt has more info than the flash drive on the Roamio. Cool, fun test


----------



## jmbach

tommage1 said:


> Wow, I did it. Put 1TB "cheapo" SSD into the TE3 Roamio Plus. It formatted to TE3 and seemed to work, pretty much as expected. I then tried the app on the Roamio to switch to TE4. It did the download, got to pending restart. Which is where I got to on the Bolt. So I restarted. AND IT WORKED. I now have a Roamio Plus on TE4 with a functioning cheapo 1TB SSD. May leave it in there awhile, see how it handles connections etc. Then will go back to TE3 and regular drive since that is what I will be using day to day. This did NOT work with the Bolt. Which leads me to guess can run TE4 with SSD on Roamio but not Bolt (we shall see about Edge when you try). Probably the difference in what is on the flash drive between Roamios and Bolts, flash drive on Bolt has more info than the flash drive on the Roamio. Cool, fun test


Interesting. I would venture to say that one of the software updates for TE4 may have allowed to work on the Roamio and it may just work on the Bolt now. (Or it may be that you have a special SSD)

If I can find my SSD, I may just try it out on my spare Bolt. 

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk


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## tommage1

jmbach said:


> Interesting. I would venture to say that one of the software updates for TE4 may have allowed to work on the Roamio and it may just work on the Bolt now. (Or it may be that you have a special SSD)


I just did it on a fresh Bolt, before I tried on Roamio. TE3 worked. Trying TE4 with the on device app did not work (downloaded but when restarting froze, never installed TO THE SSD, did install to the flash drive). I then tried the clone method, clone functioning TE4 CMR drive to the SSD. Again did not work, just freezes at starting screen. If you can get it to work with Bolt I'd be interested. Though I would never use an SSD in a Tivo myself  Cheapo 1TB SSD, "Team Group", not enterprise or even name brand.


----------



## ms602

tommage1 said:


> I would never use an SSD in a Tivo myself


To each their own. Glad you had fun. I won't know if this ever works in a Bolt, my Bolt is broken. I've got an Edge to test. Will post when I'm able to test in the Edge.


----------



## tommage1

ms602 said:


> To each their own. Glad you had fun. I won't know if this ever works in a Bolt, my Bolt is broken. I've got an Edge to test. Will post when I'm able to test in the Edge.


Yeah, looking forward to hearing what happens with Edge. We have different overall goals, you have the solar so need to save as much as possible power. Me, I want cheapest cost per TB for the drive and what will last the longest. If SSD does not work in Edge you MAY be able to use the 4TB SMR drive in the Edge. Since 15mm will be a tight squeeze, have to leave off a bracket and cover may not close completely. But may work, the stock drive in an Edge is SMR also. Does not mean ALL SMR will work in Edge but some will, maybe this one?

How did you get COMPLETE solar for your residence? I would love that, save money of course but really GREAT for the environment.


----------



## ms602

tommage1 said:


> you MAY be able to use the 4TB SMR drive in the Edge.


The drive is said to be PMR (2.5'' Samsung 4TB / 2015 / PMR / ST4000LM016). I'm not putting that into the Edge, it'll stay in the Roamio. The fit would be too tight in the Edge. I don't want the air hole being covered, that's a recipe for heat failure. Also not gonna customize the case by poking a hole or altering it in some way to fit a 15mm drive.

I've got a similar drive of lower height and lesser capacity (2.5'' Samsung 2TB / 2014 / PMR / ST200LM003). If an SSD doesn't work, I may end up using that drive in the Edge, we'll see. If an SSD works, I'll definitely do that and see how well it works long-term.

"I won't know if this ever works in a Bolt"

I said I don't have a Bolt, but I might actually. I have way too many frickin TiVos laying around and I need to get rid of some. I have an Edge, a Roamio, a broken Bolt, another Roamio, and 3 Premieres. I talked to Weaknees, and I'm going to sell them the Premieres (which are lifetime subscription) and donate the Bolt and 2nd Roamio. Regarding a Bolt.. I was talking to someone nearby who hasn't had luck selling his working Bolt. He's gonna give it to me to send to Weaknees for recycling/parts. So I'll have it to test an SSD before I send it away.

After a little spring cleaning, I'll just have an Edge and a Roamio (both lifetime subscription). Also got one of those TiVo Stream 4K dongles..



tommage1 said:


> How did you get COMPLETE solar for your residence? I would love that, save money of course but really GREAT for the environment.


I put in a really cheap solar system, as far as solar systems go. Basically, I only have a few days of reserve power available at any time. So if it rains or is cloudy more than 2 days, I've gotta turn off the DVR to make sure the fridge has enough power available. Solar systems are not standardized, there's no one way to do it. If you're interested, I'd look it up on YouTube. Any video maker is going to explain the subject and issues better than I can type it out. Tesla makes a decent sized battery called a PowerWall for the case, if you wanna look at something specific.


----------



## tommage1

ms602 said:


> I was talking to someone nearby who hasn't had luck selling his working Bolt. He's gonna give it to me to send to Weaknees for recycling/parts. So I'll have it to test an SSD before I send it away.


Yeah, price of Bolts is way down. Seems if lifetime $150-200. If monthly maybe not worth what it costs to ship, recycle or do something locally.

I'll read about solar. Though will be moving within a few years so no point in installing now. However maybe WHERE I move could take into account going solar in the future so good to know how it works/costs before buying the house.


----------



## ms602

I finally got a chance to try an SSD in the TiVo Edge, as well as the Bolt. It took more than a month to get a proper driver bit (Gamebit) by mail through which to open the Edge. Hence the long delay. I had a monthly Bolt that someone gave to me, and I recently purchased a lifetime Edge.

The overall result: SSD does not work in the Edge or the Bolt, by the sector-by-sector imaging method I previously mentioned.

First off, the Bolt. I found inserting an SSD to attempt to format it for Hydra does not work (as previously reported by users). The startup screen just perpetually hangs. Upon copying the working hard drive sector-by-sector to an SSD, the SSD does not boot, it passes the startup screen, but then hangs at a grey arrow page. Upon re-inserting the working hard-drive, same result (no boot, hanging at grey arrow page). I didn't think anything of this, and really didn't want to waste anymore time, so that's all that I did on the Bolt. It was a monthly/cancelled model, and I tossed it into a box with several other units I was sending to weaknees .com for donation/sale.

Second, the Edge. I found inserting an SSD to attempt to format it for Hydra does not work, the startup screen just perpetually hangs. I don't think this is surprising, as it's the same result as a Bolt. Same as the Bolt, upon copying the working hard drive sector-by-sector to an SSD, the SSD does not boot. It passes the startup screen, but then hangs at a grey arrow page. Upon re-inserting the working hard-drive, same result (no boot, hanging at grey arrow page). This time, I spent a little more time inserting various hard drives, and determined that the TiVo Edge seems to tie itself to a single hard drive upon formatting for use. This may also be the case for the Bolt, someone would need to do more testing to conclude such. I found this out by formatting the original OEM drive, re-installing the TiVo OS in the drive, then inserting another working drive (and going through the installation/update), then plugging-in the original OEM drive again and getting that same result (no boot, hanging at grey arrow page).

From prior testing on the Roamio, I maintain that TiVo developers may not be intentionally prohibiting Hydra from running from an SSD, but simply that the installer does not work with an SSD for some technical reason. I think I've found a difference between Roamio, and the Bolt and Edge -- which is that the Roamio doesn't do this disk tying I've mentioned. It's possible that TiVo offloaded more operating code from the Bolt/Edge to an onboard EMMC, which it didn't do for the Roamio, hence the possible difference (this is pure speculation). It would make sense according to other reports of the workings of newer models, specifically that newer models feature such an EMMC to make OS/GUI operation faster.

Roamio is the only model I've found that sector-by-sector disk cloning will enable Hydra to boot and run on SSD. That said, I'm kinda burnt out on TiVo tinkering for a while. I just donated/sold all my older DVRs (7 total) to Weaknees, so no more fiddling with any older units. For the time being, my Roamio is running a 4TB hard-drive (ST4000LM016) and the 2TB SSD I bought for it (CT2000MX50088D1) is sitting in a drawer. The Edge is in a drawer also. I'm not all too impressed by it, since it can't run an SSD, and has only room for a tiny hard drive.

If anyone wants to buy a used TiVo Edge for Antenna (with lifetime / All-In), hit me up.


----------



## tommage1

ms602 said:


> The Edge is in a drawer also. I'm not all too impressed by it, since it can't run an SSD, and has only room for a tiny hard drive.


The Edge will run a Seagate/Samsung 2TB ST2000lm003. It is a CMR drive, and only uses 3 platters so 9.5mm, will fit an Edge with no mods. It's not an SSD though.

And the SSD on TE4 Roamio, did not have to do any clones/copies. Just started with 1TB SSD on TE3 and ran the on device app to switch to TE4. Worked.


----------



## tommage1

tommage1 said:


> The Edge will run a Seagate/Samsung 2TB ST2000lm003. It is a CMR drive, and only uses 3 platters so 9.5mm, will fit an Edge with no mods. It's not an SSD though.
> 
> And the SSD on TE4 Roamio, did not have to do any clones/copies. Just started with 1TB SSD on TE3 and ran the on device app to switch to TE4. Worked.


Oh, I recently bought a zero hour ST2000LM003 from a guy. He may have one left. Hard to find other than used.


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## ms602

tommage1 said:


> Oh, I recently bought a zero hour ST2000LM003 from a guy. He may have one left. Hard to find other than used.


It's fine, I already have one (ST2000LM003) sitting in a drawer. It's a PMR drive (perpendicular), lol, says so in the published specifications. I'm sticking with the Roamio as my daily DVR mainly because it has 4 tuners. The Edge Antenna has 2 and I haven't found the 4 tuner version on sale anywhere. It's a rare case that I have more than 2 shows recording at the same time, but does happen from time to time.

TiVo has a sale right now for the Edge Antenna for $299.99 with All-In-Plan, plus tax and shipping. So it may be tough to get my money back, but that's okay. It can serve as a spare, unless I happen upon someone who wants it. If I ever decide to use it, I'll surely pop the thing open again and throw in that drive (ST2000LM003).


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## ms602

tommage1 said:


> Just started with 1TB SSD on TE3 and ran the on device app to switch to TE4. Worked.


Good to know. I'll use that method next time (instead of cloning), whenever I decide to switch the Roamio to SSD.


----------



## tommage1

ms602 said:


> t's a PMR drive (perpendicular), lol, says so in the published specifications


Well yes, but there are PMR/CMR drives and PMR/SMR drives. All are PERPENDICULAR, but there is a big difference between PMR/CMR and PMR/SMR. The Seagate 2TB is PMR/CMR, that is good. Will work fine in your Edge, even though it is TE4 only.


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## ms602

tommage1 said:


> Well yes, but there are PMR/CMR drives and PMR/SMR drives. All are PERPENDICULAR, but there is a big difference between PMR/CMR and PMR/SMR. The Seagate is PMR/CMR, that is good. Will work fine in your Edge, even though it is TE4 only.


I don't know why you keep dwelling on this whole PMR/CMR thing. It's not even the subject of anything I've intended to discuss in this forum topic. This forum topic is SSD, which is the main subject I've posted on.

The manufacturer of the drive (ST2000LM003) states that the recording method is perpendicular. If it were shingled, they would call it shingled, but they did not. So it is a PMR drive, it's listed in the specifications that way. If the drive used a shingled recording method, we might call it SMR. If you ask the senior TiVo community members, CMR and PMR drives are okay to use in a DVR, and SMR should be avoided.

Maybe there were drives made prior to using the perpendicular recording method that people could collectively call conventional. Or desktop drives that are made using the conventional recording method without any need for high density. In which case you could call them CMR, because they are conventional in the recording method.

I'm not any sort of hard drive engineer, but what I gather is that there are 3 types of drives (based on recording method).
Conventional (okay to use in a DVR)
Perpendicular (okay to use in a DVR)
Shingled (not okay to use in a DVR)

*ggieseke -- *or some other senior member -- Can someone settle this ongoing CMR/SMR debate?


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## tommage1

ms602 said:


> I don't know why you keep dwelling on this whole PMR/CMR thing. It's not even the subject of anything I've intended to discuss in this forum topic. This forum topic is SSD, which is the main subject I've posted on.
> 
> The manufacturer of the drive (ST2000LM003) states that the recording method is perpendicular. If it were shingled, they would call it shingled, but they did not. So it is a PMR drive, it's listed in the specifications that way. If the drive used a shingled recording method, we might call it SMR. If you ask the senior TiVo community members, CMR and PMR drives are okay to use in a DVR, and SMR should be avoided.
> 
> Maybe there were drives made prior to using the perpendicular recording method that people could collectively call conventional. Or desktop drives that are made using the conventional recording method without any need for high density. In which case you could call them CMR, because they are conventional in the recording method.
> 
> I'm not any sort of hard drive engineer, but what I gather is that there are 3 types of drives (based on recording method).
> Conventional (okay to use in a DVR)
> Perpendicular (okay to use in a DVR)
> Shingled (not okay to use in a DVR)
> 
> *ggieseke -- *or some other senior member -- Can someone settle this ongoing CMR/SMR debate?


Well again no, in the "old days" there was only PMR, perpendicular. Then they came out with SMR drives. What WAS known as PMR now became PMR/CMR or PMR/SMR. I keep mentioning it for OTHERS who may understand what I am talking about, they may be interested in the difference. Since most PMR/SMR drives will NOT work with TE4. I welcome ggieske or anyone else to confirm what I say, and by the way "I" am a senior member, there are those that know more, some who know less, anyone else can chime in, I would welcome it at this point.


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## ms602

tommage1 said:


> I keep mentioning it for OTHERS who may understand what I am talking about, they may be interested in the difference.


No, I'm not interested in what you're talking about.. I just want to hear from ggieske or someone senior so that I have something that I can quote back to you anytime you repeatedly bring the topic up. I mean really, I don't know why you keep bringing this PMR/SMR thing up. If anyone goes back and reads the thread, it started with me talking about an SSD, and wondered off to PMR/SMR because you swayed it that way.



tommage1 said:


> "I" am a senior member


Your title says registered, not premium member. I'd rather hear from ggieske or someone senior. I've talked with ggieske in the past, he's helpful, super knowledgeable, humble and polite. Everything I would expect a respectable senior member to be.

I am not a senior member. I work in IT, so I generally know technology, and it's so important that IT people not be condescending and preachy -- regardless of how qualified and knowledgeable they may be. I'm a longtime TiVo user myself (since series 3) and contribute here when I have something useful to share..


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## tommage1

ms602 said:


> No, I'm not interested in what you're talking about.. I just want to hear from ggieske or someone senior so that I have something that I can quote back to you anytime you repeatedly bring the topic up. I mean really, I don't know why you keep bringing this PMR/SMR thing up. If anyone goes back and reads the thread, it started with me talking about an SSD, and wondered off to PMR/SMR because you swayed it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> Your title says registered, not premium member. I'd rather hear from ggieske or someone senior. I've talked with ggieske in the past, he's helpful, super knowledgeable, humble and polite. Everything I would expect a respectable senior member to be.
> 
> I am not a senior member. I work in IT, so I generally know technology, and it's so important that IT people not be condescending and preachy -- regardless of how qualified and knowledgeable they may be. I'm a longtime TiVo user myself (since series 3) and contribute here when I have something useful to share..





ms602 said:


> Your title says registered, not premium member. I'd rather hear from ggieske or someone senior.


Premium means someone pays to be a premium member. You could be a one day member and have premium status, if you pay for it. Ggieske is both, for sure senior. And knows a LOT more than me. I HOPE he replies though, this so simple I am getting rather frustrated.


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## ms602

tommage1 said:


> Ggieske is both, for sure senior. And knows a LOT more than me.


I would love to hear from someone who knows more than Tommage1 on the PMR/SMR topic you continually bring up.

Until such time that I hear from Ggieske, I'm going to defer authority to this guy on YouTube.  He seems to be knowledgeable on the matter..


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## ms602

I'm now running TE4/Hydra on a 2TB SSD (CT2000MX50088D1) full-time in my TiVo Roamio. This will now serve as my daily full-time DVR, and I will report any further issues I encounter. Since *zombiephysicist *has reported 3 years of solid performance for TE3 in 2 TiVo Bolts, I have every reason to expect the same reliability. We shall see if any issues arise.

To setup, starting with a hard drive running TE4, I first downgraded to TE3 using the official support provided method.

[Choose HOME MENU > HELP > RESET TO DEFAULTS > REPEAT GUIDED SETUP. Press Thumbs Down, Thumbs Down, Rewind, Rewind on the remote control to display the Downgrade Your TiVo Box screen.]

Once the option to downgrade to TE3 was complete (but not rebooted to finalize), I powered down, plugged in the SSD (CT2000MX50088D1), and installed TE3 to SSD. As previously mentioned, my TiVo Roamio will not install TE4 directly to the SSD upon attempts to do so. I then initiated the upgrade app to move from TE3 to TE4 (no problem encountered).

[From *TiVo Central, *select *Apps. *Choose *Get New Experience *to launch the upgrade app*.]*

I wasn't expecting to move to SSD this soon. In prior posts, I said I was burnt out on TiVo fiddling, and would give it a rest and probably complete the migration to SSD after a few months. Well -- that plan changed today when I encountered a problem. My DVR unexpectedly became frozen/unresponsive. Arizona is experiencing the usual summer heat wave, and the temperature in my residence is 100 degrees Fahrenheit on a daily basis now. Rebooting the DVR did not fix unresponsiveness, and after opening up the DVR, I found that a plastic fastener had popped out of place from the heatsink. This created an air gap between the CPU and heatsink, causing it to overheat and cease functioning. I had to disassemble the whole DVR to fix the heatsink fastener (a plastic pin). Since I was fiddling around anyway, I figured I might as well take some extra time now to upgrade the drive to SSD, as I was expecting to do later anyway.

I hope this is useful to anyone interested in running TE4 on SSD in a Roamio. Roamio is the only DVR I know this will work.


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## zombiephysicist

So 40 months and all is well but this is the end for me. I just unplugged my TiVo and gone streaming.

However, my friend who uses his TiVo more intensely than I do with the family of 5 constantly pounding on it will keep using his. This may be my last report, but we are well past 3 years, and nearing 3.5 years with zero problems. He may keep his for years more to come. 

Hope this thread has helped those seeking to use an SSD.

Please share your SSD experiences here with others if you have put an SSD in your TiVo. I think this is a valuable test that upends "common knowledge" that no longer holds. Namely, SSDs totally DO work in a DVR. Not only do they work, they work BETTER than 2.5" spinner drives.

TiVo on my TiVo brothers and sisters!


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## tommage1

zombiephysicist said:


> So 40 months and all is well but this is the end for me. I just unplugged my TiVo and gone streaming.
> 
> However, my friend who uses his TiVo more intensely than I do with the family of 5 constantly pounding on it will keep using his. This may be my last report, but we are well past 3 years, and nearing 3.5 years with zero problems. He may keep his for years more to come.
> 
> Hope this thread has helped those seeking to use an SSD.
> 
> Please share your SSD experiences here with others if you have put an SSD in your TiVo. I think this is a valuable test that upends "common knowledge" that no longer holds. Namely, SSDs totally DO work in a DVR. Not only do they work, they work BETTER than 2.5" spinner drives.
> 
> TiVo on my TiVo brothers and sisters!


Really fun interesting project and good updates. Summary for me with SSD, I got them to work with Roamio and Bolt on TE3. Got to work on Roamio with TE4 (yes really, cheapo SSD also, not enterprise). But never got to work in Bolt on TE4. And am assuming would not work with Edge since TE4 only and the same flash drive/internal drive relationship as Bolt, Roamio does not have SQLite on flash drive, Bolt/Edge do.

I do think part of the reason for your success is you putting the Tivo into standby when not in use. I think as you mentioned not constantly recording the buffers could reduce wear and tear on drive, SSD or spinner.


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## tommage1

I will give my opinions for the best drives to use in Roamio, Bolt and Edge.

Roamio I'd always go with a spinner. TE3 or TE4. And always a CMR drive. Since 3.5" drives, reliable, almost any size can be used, and cost effective. Should last 5-10 years. Only thing to consider is if you want to use TE4 start with a TE3 drive and use the on board app to do the switch. That way you can always switch between TE3 and TE4 if you want. Though going from TE4 to TE3 will lose recordings/settings. If you let the Roamio self format a blank drive to TE4 you are stuck with it, can't go back to TE3.

Bolt, well ideal would be to go Sata to Sata with an external 3.5. Same considerations as above. Avoid the ESata port on the external though some will work. If you want to go internal, definitely want CMR for a spinner. The largest internal 2.5" CMR drive is 3TB, anything above is SMR. This is where the SSD could come into play. Could get above 3TB. But only TE3, no TE4. Kinda been "proven" with this test (that it works). At least with a high quality enterprise type SSD.

Edge, same about external 3.5. If internal I don't think SSD is an option, Edge being TE4 only. Spinners, most larger 2.5 CMR spinners are 15mm. And will not fit well in an Edge though can be done. I'd pick the ideal drive for an Edge as the 2TB Seagate/Samsung ST2000LM003. It is the ONLY 2TB or up (well there are none over 2TB) CMR drive that is only 9.5mm and will fit an Edge with no modification. That I know of.

So Roamio always internal spinner CMR 3.5. Bolt external Sata to Sata 3.5 CMR, or internal 2.5 CMR up to 3TB OR the large capacity SSD if on TE3. Edge, external Sata to Sata 3.5 CMR or if internal really only one model if 2TB, the Seagate/Samsung since 9.5mm. 15mm will kinda fit but have to leave out part of a bracket and case will not close completely.


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## CommunityMember

ms602 said:


> .... or some other senior member -- Can someone settle this ongoing CMR/SMR debate?


I am not a senior member, nor a hard disk geek, but if you want to know about what drives are what (conventional or shingled, etc.), refer to The HDD Platter Capacity Database click through the various vendors (be aware that some drives marketed as Seagate are under the Samsung vendor due to the Seagate/Samsung consolidation) and sizes, and look at the accumulated details (and you can also get a quick guess by looking at the drive cache numbers, pretty much all drive managed shingled drives have a very large cache to handle the needed reorganizations).


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## ms602

CommunityMember said:


> I am not a senior member, nor a hard disk geek, but if you want to know about what drives are what (conventional or shingled, etc.)..


I've heard of CMR, PMR, SMR, by experts outside of TiVo Community. As to why there was a discussion about CMR, PMR, SMR, in this forum topic (about SSD) that's a really good question..

If you read the discussion, I've chosen to move off hard disks entirely. Really, I couldn't care less about hard disk drives, I keep a few around just as unused spares. I care about hard drives about as much as I care about soldering. 😆 I may have to pretend to care about hard drives if a client has an older computer, but I think the technology is antiquated now. There may be large data applications (enterprise) that will continue to use HDDs, but consumer tech seems to be moving entirely to SSD (and related non disk storage tech) and I certainly applaud that move.

Maybe TiVo will continue to utilize hard drives in DVRs, but I'm not sure I'll be using a TiVo longterm. Streaming is getting to the point of parity, and even better in some regards.


----------



## CommunityMember

ms602 said:


> Maybe TiVo will continue to utilize hard drives in DVRs


It seems unlikely there will be a next-gen STB DVR with local storage (although never say never, again), as their remaining focus for STBs is on their MSO customers (not retail), and most of those are moving to IPTV and cloud DVR solutions rather than local storage solutions.



> but I'm not sure I'll be using a TiVo longterm. Streaming is getting to the point of parity, and even better in some regards.


There will always be those that will give up their TiVo only when it is pried from their cold, dead, hands, but the market (and TiVo itself) has moved on, even as the brand name itself has sufficient consumer recognition to be continued into new markets.

The OTT's/streamers/vMVPDs are certainly not my idea of a perfect ecosystem, but they have shown they have a viable, and for some people and in some cases preferable, alternative for content access.


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## ms602

CommunityMember said:


> There will always be those that will give up their TiVo only when it is pried from their cold, dead, hands..


TiVo (company) owners have already laid the groundwork for pulling the plug on the DVR business. The name change from "Lifetime subscription" to "ALL-IN" was certainly no accident. A DVR without an EPG (guide data) is about as useful as a VCR with a VHS tape. Sure, owners own their DVR, but without service, I'm not sure it's all that useful. Whether TiVo (company) continues is dependent upon consumer preference, and honestly, I think they're struggling.

For me, 80% of my needs are met by streaming, and really, mostly by Youtube. The main reason I still have the DVR up and running, is because PBS doesn't post all their content to Youtube. That could change. I mostly watch news, and the DVR can receive ABC, CBS, PBS, and NBC via antenna. On Youtube, those same broadcasters are available, as well as BBC, CBC, DW, France24, and hundreds of others. Youtube also has a cloud DVR service.

I'll keep the Roamio around until it dies or TiVo ends operation. I'll probably try and sell the Edge to get my money back. 😆


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## southerndoc

I think we're just counting the days until our TiVos lose functionality. I think they will continue to have guide data as I believe (could be mistaken) they sell this data. New DVRs probably won't ever be released.


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## High Technology

Sadly, I have to agree -- the Edge was honestly a bit of surprise, and likely is the last DVR TiVo will release.

I still can't really stomach the other devices I've played with -- I'm a TiVo diehard and have been around since the Philips Series 1, and been through Series 1, 2, 4 (Premiere), and 6 (Bolt), and somewhere in-between the 2 and the 4, I had DirecTV with the D-TiVos for a few years. I was poking around the forum, as one of the Bolts had a drive failure so I took my spare 2TB drive I bought about 2 years ago out of storage (pun intended) and did the swap. I wanted to buy another 2TB spare, but it looks like there are none to be found at this point other than from overseas.

Part of the issue isn't really TiVo's ability, but rather the inability to connect on newer cable platforms. We're FiOS where I live, but I'll likely be moving in a year, and I have no idea if there will be Cablecards where I'm going (because I don't know where I'm moving to yet). We currently own 3 Premieres (only 1 is in use - the others are spares), and 2 Bolt Vox units, and also have 2 Minis.


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