# TiVO Roamio Plus 6-Tuner DVR + Lifetime Subscription $599 + Free Shipping



## Wingershute (Oct 22, 2010)

https://www.tivo.com/shop/promo/summer-savings?SSAID=101512&SSAID=101512


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Only 2000 available!!!


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## digitalfirefly (Apr 15, 2005)

I have 2 XL4s and a premiere. All with lifetime. I'm considering going to the 3TB roamio with 2 minis...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

That was tempting since I'm about to end 10 years of cord cutting by getting digital cable for at least a year, but I think I'll stick with my Roamio Basic w/lifetime for the digital cable and use my 5-year old Premier XL w/lifetime for bonus OTA tuners. I should let the Roamio Basic investment amortize a little first and still have the freedom to leave cable if I want to.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

digitalfirefly said:


> I have 2 XL4s and a premiere. All with lifetime. I'm considering going to the 3TB roamio with 2 minis...


Get one of the fleabay discount codes then for $20 or so, you'll come out cheaper with the Minis ($174 lifetime w/code). Tivo is not discounting the Minis with this summer sale, only the Roamios.


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## digitalfirefly (Apr 15, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> Get one of the fleabay discount codes then for $20 or so, you'll come out cheaper with the Minis ($174 lifetime w/code). Tivo is not discounting the Minis with this summer sale, only the Roamios.


What code are you talking about?


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## Phasers (May 29, 2008)

Just use promo code Tivo50 for $50 off, making it $550 total. 

That's practically a steal.


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

I had just purchased a Roamio Plus at the full $899.98 with Lifetime sub on June 28th. Obviously being within my 30 day return window I immediately jumped on the phone after seeing this and asked if any of the 2,000 units at the $599.98 price were still available and he said yes. That was all I needed to hear. I told him very nicely that they could either credit the difference or I'd be returning the unit and purchasing one at the lower price while we were on the phone. Of course, I made sure to further comment the obvious fact that doing this would only create more hassle for them and myself.

He put me on hold for just 10 minutes to speak with a supervisor, came back, and said it was a done deal. I was told credit for the difference would be applied to my CC on file the day after my 30 day return period on the unit expires and he gave me a reference number. I'm assuming they did this to make sure I didn't ask for the credit and then still decide to turn around and return the unit anyway before 30 days was up. Whatever, nice to have gotten the credit without any hassle from them.

So, if anyone else bought within the last couple of weeks at full price with Lifetime, then I'd highly suggest you get on the phone A.S.A.P. before they sell those 2,000 units and your leverage disappears.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Phasers said:


> Just use promo code Tivo50 for $50 off, making it $550 total.
> 
> That's practically a steal.


If that's true that's insane! TiVo must be desperate to boost their second quarter retail sales numbers. At $550, they are essentially selling the hardware and service at cost. There's almost no profit for them at all at that price. I don't really need another Roamio Plus, but honestly at that price I'm tempted to just buy one and sell it for a profit on ebay or something. It's just too good of a deal to pass up.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I was debating this offer and the extra $50 off (pays the taxes) pushed me over the edge.

I'll sell my 2-tuner Premiere w/ Lifetime to recoup some of the cost.

This is a great deal! My initial Order Summary doesn't reflect the discounts but I assume (hope!) those will be applied later.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

digitalfirefly said:


> What code are you talking about?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Day-Sale-...972?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item233d05fcf4

Just an example, search for Tivo discount on fleabay to see other sellers.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I just typed "Tivo50" in the Promo Code box at checkout and $50 was instantly discounted.

I didn't do anything on eBay.

Thanks to the user Phasers here who gave the code.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

That pushed me over the top as well. That's like the price it's going for on Amazon, only with half-price lifetime.


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## jaj2276 (Dec 25, 2007)

So I jumped on this too along with the Tivo50 promo code.

A few minutes later, I get an email receipt with the price at $999. I log on to tivo.com and the order history there shows $999 too.

I jump on chat and have a "conversation" with the support agent who tries different reasoning on why $999 was the correct price. Long story short, my credit card shows a pending charge of $799 so I'll hold off on chat roulette until that pending charge becomes a firm $999 charge.

--- [snip] ---
Chat
Terminate the Chat Hang up Print the Transcript Chat with an agent
Please note: At this time, it is not possible to use chat to cancel TiVo service, or to update billing and credit card information. Please call TiVo customer support for assistance. Thank you for your understanding.

Status: Connected

Sarah (Listening)
Sarah: Thank you for contacting TiVo! My name is Sarah. So that I may better assist you, are you an existing customer?
Me: I am
Me: Long time, since 1998!
Sarah: Thank you, Joshua! In order to verify your identity, can you please provide the following account information?

*address (including city/state/zip)
*phone number

Me: <redacted>
Me: <redacted>
Sarah: Thank you for verifying your information. How may I assist you today?
Me: Well I just placed an order for the Tivo Roamio Plus w/ Lifetime service for $599. I also bought a Tivo Mini w/ Lifetime for $249. I then used the promo code of Tivo50 to get another $50 off for a total of $799. I placed the order and all went well. However I'm looking at the receipt that was sent via email and it has me at a price of $999.
Me: I also see in my order history that it also has me down for $999.
Me: I wanted to make sure that I'm being charged the correct amount.
Sarah: Unfortunately since that is already an offer that has a discount you cannot use a discount code to get an additional discount and they cannot be combined.
Me: Ok, although when I applied the code, it didn't "reject" it, it allowed me to place the order for $799.
Sarah: The TiVo50 has been expired for a long time.
Me: Again, that's fine, except Tivo's website accepted the promo code.
Me: If it has been expired for a long time, why did it allow me to place the order?
Me: with the promo applied?
Sarah: It will still allow you to enter he code, but the system knows it is not a valid code and that you already received a discounted offer. Which is why you didn't see a discount.
Me: But I did see the discount
Me: Only on the emailed receipt did it not show *any* discount.
Me: Not the $50 nor the Roamio Plus + Lifetime at $599.
Me: Is there a way I can send you a screenshot of an order?
Me: Or maybe you can attempt to order the same bundle that I ordered and see for yourself.
Sarah: You did get a discount, but it was not the bundle offer, you actually got the $50.00 discount.
Me: But the checkout page, and it still shows this, allows me apply the promo code, DOES NOT remove the bundle offer discount. You can go do this yourself.
Sarah: S00031 TiVo Package, Product Lifetime 
1 $399.99 $399.99 $0.00 $399.99 
R84800 TiVo Roamio Plus 
1 $349.99 $349.99 $0.00 $349.99 07/16/2014 
S00041 TiVo Mini Bundle, Product Lifetime 
1 $149.99 $149.99 $0.00 $149.99 
RA9200 TiVo Mini (RA9200) 
1 $99.99 $99.99 $0.00 $99.99

Here is the break down of your order. You got the $50.00 off of the TiVo box.
Me: Sarah, I understand that my total of $999.99 is $50 off the $1049. But that is NOT what Tivo's checkout page is showing.
Me: Order summaryEdit
TiVo Roamio Plus $399.99
with discount applied$349.99
Product Lifetime service $199.99
Limited warrantyINCLUDED
TiVo Mini $99.99
Product Lifetime service $149.99
Limited warrantyINCLUDED
Subtotal: $1,149.96 $799.96
Promo code: Tivo50
ShippingFREE
Tax (details) FREE
ORDER TOTAL:$799.96
Me: That's a straight copy and paste from http://www.tivo.com/checkout
Me: I can send you a screenshot or BETTER YET you can go and try to "buy" the same package and you'll see the same thing.
Sarah: Since you cannot combine offers, the system only took one offer which was the $50.00.
Sarah: I have the screen right in front of me.
Me: Apparently you do not or we're on two different systems.
Sarah: When you check you out cannot have two offers, the system will only take one.
Me: But that's the point. The checkout portion IS ALLOWING me to take both offers. It's telling me I'm only paying $799. There's not another page that will show a different price. I'm on the final page where I check the "I agree to the TiVo User Agreent and Privacy Policy" and click "Place Order".
Me: I understand that somewhere on the back end, that's not being communicated to the front end, it's doing something different. But the front end is definitely allowing and showing $799.
Sarah: How much were you charged through your bank account?
Me: That's not the point. I'm assuming you're charging me $999. I'm saying that's not what your website is showing me what will be charged. I literally placed this order 30 mins ago.
Me: Ahh actually, I just checked my Amex card.
Me: A pending charge of $799.96
Me: So the order history and email receipt which shows $999 is wrong. And of course the promo code worked.
Sarah: I would go with that, but since it is pending I can't guarantee that it will not switch back to the $999.96.
Me: Lol, ya seems like there needs to be some work done on your back end billing systems. Thanks Sarah.
Sarah: You're welcome! Is there anything else I can help you with today?
Joshua Johnson: Nope, that will be it.
Sarah: Thank you for contacting TiVo today. Your reference number for our conversation is 140716-002124. You can save this for your records, and if necessary, provide this to a later agent to pull up what we discussed. There will be a brief satisfaction survey emailed to you. We would appreciate any feedback on your TiVo Chat Support experience today.
Sarah: Thank you for using TiVo Chat and have a great day!
Type your message here, then click Send or press <Enter>

--- [/snip] ---


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

On the phone with them now. When the TiVo50 code is used it removes the other discount which bumps up the price dramatically.

The CSR rep is telling me using both codes is not allowed and she can't overwrite it. She's making me choose one or the other.

Their website quotes the price with both discounts applied; they should honor that whether they system is set up properly. 

If anyone gets both applied; please post there. Maybe someone from TiVo here can help?


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

That annoyed me as well but before going through the headache of contacting them I checked what the credit card was being charged, and it was the price I agreed to. That's typical Tivo. I have previous orders in my account history that are still priced incorrectly relative to what I actually paid. They know a penny more than anyone agrees to on the checkout page and they're getting some returns. Perhaps some accounting shenanigans going on for the quarterly statement.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

So on the phone I was told "you can't do both" but jaj2276 was told online that he supposedly can but that the order history won't show up properly?

Which is it, TiVo?!


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

series5orpremier said:


> That annoyed me as well but before going through the headache of contacting them I checked what the credit card was being charged, and it was the price I agreed to. That's typical Tivo. I have previous orders in my account history that are still priced incorrectly relative to what I actually paid. They know a penny more than anyone agrees to on the checkout page and they're getting some returns. Perhaps some accounting shenanigans going on for the quarterly statement.


Yeah most likely. I'd wait a few days for the charge on your credit card to clear to see how much you are actually being billed before worrying about it too much.


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## jaj2276 (Dec 25, 2007)

cwoody222 said:


> So on the phone I was told "you can't do both" but jaj2276 was told online that he supposedly can but that the order history won't show up properly?
> 
> Which is it, TiVo?!


My chat support agent also said I couldn't do both (and also claimed the Tivo50 code was old and expired). I just told her that my CC showed the amount that the website showed (which included both discounts) and she relented and said "ok, well just go with that amount then."

I forgot to point out in my original post that I was buying the Roamio Plus + Lifetime along with the Mini + Lifetime (which is why I was looking for a $799 price tag and not the $999 price tag).


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

It sounds like being able to use the "Tivo50" code along with this deal probably is a mistake.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It sounds like being able to use the "Tivo50" code along with this deal probably is a mistake.


But the front-end of their website allows it (and I have a screenshot).


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

cwoody222 said:


> But the front-end of their website allows it (and I have a screenshot).


They will probably honor it for people who have successfully used it already in their automated ordering system, but if they wanted to undo those transactions then technically they probably can legally.


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## jaj2276 (Dec 25, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It sounds like being able to use the "Tivo50" code along with this deal probably is a mistake.


I agree and I wasn't really looking to get both when I contacted support. I thought it was odd that it "chose" the $50 discount as opposed to the $150 bundle discount.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I got nowhere with my online chat:

me: i placed an order for the July Flash special Roamio. I also applied the TiVo50 Promo code for an additional $50 off. The front-end of your website allowed this and quoted me a final price of $598.10
me: but the order confirmation email was close to $1000. I called and spoke to a CSR.
me: she told me that it was not allowed to use both codes at once and when she tried, it would only apply the $50 discount, not the $300 lifetime discount
me: so right now I have an order for ~ $650 because I was unable to apply the TiVo50 $50 discount also. can you help?
Niles: We apologize for the confusion, but for that you would have to call us at 877-367-8486. We can not process any sales through chat or email.
me: I have a current order. I'm not looking to process a sale. Just looking to apply the $50 discount. The CSR that I talked to when I called said she could not but that's not right since your website quoted the price with the TiVo50 discount
Niles: So you are trying to get both the flash sale and the $50 off?
me: correct. your website did allow both but when it gave the order confirmation, it declined. (after order was placed; I actually had to cancel that initial order)
Niles: As we don't allow for those to stack that would be a problem. Currently you could only use the $50 off or the flash sale. We apologize for the confusion.
me: but your website does allow them to "stack". I have a screenshot showing the double-discount being applied.
Niles: It would allow you to try it, but they don't stack when you process the order. 
me: I don't think that's fair, to quote a price and then charge another
Niles: We apologize for that confusion. The web site shouldn't even offer it.
me: long-time TiVo user here (since 1999). anything you can do?
Niles: No, that deal is very specific.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

should do the mini as a separate transaction to get the 50 off?


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

Very tempted by this deal. Is it worth the net cost increase of ~$300 to upgrade from my existing lifetime Premiere 4? 2 extra tuners is nice...is the speed increase also noticeable? Thanks!


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## aridon (Aug 31, 2006)

I had a Premier and promptly threw it out. I thought they were so slow as to make them garbage.

Roamio is very fast and worthy.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

dmk1974 said:


> Very tempted by this deal. Is it worth the net cost increase of ~$300 to upgrade from my existing lifetime Premiere 4? 2 extra tuners is nice...is the speed increase also noticeable? Thanks!


Do it! You know you want to.


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

Website screwed me too. Ordered with the $50 discount which it showed at checkout as a total of $572. Then I got the e-mail and it said $872! Screw that...CANCEL!

Also, the pre-auth on my CC showed as $572.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

dmk1974 said:


> Website screwed me too. Ordered with the $50 discount which it showed at checkout as a total of $572. Then I got the e-mail and it said $872! Screw that...CANCEL!
> 
> Also, the pre-auth on my CC showed as $572.


If I were you, I would just let it go through, and if TiVo tries to go back and charge your credit card for more than the $572 after you receive the Roamio you can just dispute the charge with your credit card company. As long as you have the documentation proving that you agreed to pay $572, the credit card company should side with you and not allow them to charge you more than the $572 you agreed to.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It sounds like being able to use the "Tivo50" code along with this deal probably is a mistake.


I think 'you can't use two discounts on the same order' is just a standard line they're trained to tell everyone. No need to panic until you see what you're actually getting charged.


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> If I were you, I would just let it go through, and if TiVo tries to go back and charge your credit card for more than the $572 after you receive the Roamio you can just dispute the charge with your credit card company. As long as you have the documentation proving that you agreed to pay $572, the credit card company should side with you and not allow them to charge you more than the $572 you agreed to.


I didn't save the screen shot when ordering, but trusted the e-mail confirmation should be the same. Unfortunately it was $300 more! Maybe just not meant to be for me at this time.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

dmk1974 said:


> I didn't save the screen shot when ordering, but trusted the e-mail confirmation should be the same. Unfortunately it was $300 more! Maybe just not meant to be for me at this time.


Yeah if you didn't print out the confirmation screen then you better call them up and cancel it. $599 is still a great price though.


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yeah if you didn't print out the confirmation screen then you better call them up and cancel it. $599 is still a great price though.


Agreed, not bad, but fifty bucks is fifty bucks 

I'm sure this will be a hassle to resolve. I placed an order again taking screen shots as well.

Checkout page: $571.85
Order page: $771.85

But my AMEX pre-auth shows as $571.85


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

So if I understand right, using the $50 code is resulting in the invoice receipt not showing it but the preauthorization on the credit cards are showing the discounted price.

Seems to worth a try, the worse thing is to return it for a refund.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

That's basically it, yes.

I wasn't going to risk it when the difference was $300. Plus, I want to sell my current unit so I didn't want to spend time in limbo with two units while I fought over it / returned the Roamio.

I guess I'll just have to pay the "extra" $50 since that's the only price I let go thru.

My original order (done online, not with a CSR) which was cancelled just sent me a "shipping" notice but when I called in a panic (because that one was $900+) I was told it didn't actually ship, the email was wrong.

Confusing! All for a good (great) deal.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

eboydog said:


> So if I understand right, using the $50 code is resulting in the invoice receipt not showing it but the preauthorization on the credit cards are showing the discounted price.
> 
> Seems to worth a try, the worse thing is to return it for a refund.


One more thing:

If you use both codes it seems to only give you the $50, not the $300, which is quite the difference.

But if you just ignore the $50 code, everything matches up and you get the $300 off just fine.

So I guess I opted for the "sure thing" of doing it without the $50 vs. perhaps returning it or fighting for the refunded difference.

Up to you!


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

They want to make sure I can't cancel even if I wanted to. They claimed to have shipped it half an hour ago, less than 3 hours after I placed the order. They're eager to get these things out the door. It's all cool. I printed out the CC charge from my CC website as well as an order summary screen just in case they try to reneg... but I don't think there will be any problems.


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## digitalfirefly (Apr 15, 2005)

I ordered the Roamio Pro and used the Tivo50 code. Invoice say $982, but the charge to my credit card was $782. We'll see how it goes. 

If I like how the minis work I will have 2 XL4s and a Premiere XL for sale in the near future.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

another $50 off? Makes me want to order a second and resell the one I bought yesterday.


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## dalabera (Jan 10, 2013)

Phasers said:


> Just use promo code XXXXX for $50 off, making it $550 total.
> 
> That's practically a steal.


Could someone delete this post? It's causing so much confusion!!!!

I just ordered and happened the same thing....


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

dmk1974 said:


> Very tempted by this deal. Is it worth the net cost increase of ~$300 to upgrade from my existing lifetime Premiere 4? 2 extra tuners is nice...is the speed increase also noticeable? Thanks!


I don't know what the Premieres are like these days, but the Premiere is one of the things drove me away from TiVo along with regular monthly fees or extreme cost lifetime sub. I returned the Premieres and went the HTPC router for several years. Those Premiere units were buggy and slow as heck when they came out and a horrible product. Maybe they've gotten better over the years, I can't say.

What I can say is these Roamio units are very zippy and to me what the Premiere should have been out of the box. I'm very happy coming back to TiVo and having both a OTA Roamio and a Plus along with Mini. Being able to get a credit after ordering just two weeks ago for the difference with the flash sale is just icing on the cake. ;-) My two cents....


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Can you just refuse delivery to return a Tivo in order to avoid paying for return shipping?

I wish I hadn't seen this thread. Now I'm trying to get a Roamio for another $50 cheaper lol.


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## digitalfirefly (Apr 15, 2005)

deepthinker said:


> I don't know what the Premieres are like these days, but the Premiere is one of the things drove me away from TiVo along with regular monthly fees or extreme cost lifetime sub. I returned the Premieres and went the HTPC router for several years. Those Premiere units were buggy and slow as heck when they came out and a horrible product. Maybe they've gotten better over the years, I can't say.
> 
> What I can say is these Roamio units are very zippy and to me what the Premiere should have been out of the box. I'm very happy coming back to TiVo and having both a OTA Roamio and a Plus along with Mini. Being able to get a credit after ordering just two weeks ago for the difference with the flash sale is just icing on the cake. ;-) My two cents....


I have 3 premieres, all work great. One is from 2010.


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

series5orpremier said:


> They want to make sure I can't cancel even if I wanted to. They claimed to have shipped it half an hour ago, less than 3 hours after I placed the order. They're eager to get these things out the door.


They have same-day shipping for orders placed before 10 am PST or something like that.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

So Basicly they are selling lifetime service for $200 off??

Just my luck, I upgraded to a pro just a little over a month ago, had I known this was going to happen, I would have waited. Still tempted, I could always sell my Pro without lifetime later.

Would be nice if they offer the $200 off lifetime to existing customers, I would take that!


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

Really nice deal, way to go TiVo! I can't see how TiVo makes any money doing this but should get some happy customers.


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## Gene S (Feb 11, 2003)

Does MSD apply in this case? If you are a current owner would it only be $499 for the Plus?
Reading the hyperlink provided about "Product Lifetime Service", still has the blurb about MSD.


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

Chris Gerhard said:


> Really nice deal, way to go TiVo! I can't see how TiVo makes any money doing this but should get some happy customers.


I've been away from TiVo for awhile and I've always found this kind of comment fascinating, especially from TiVo fanatics, not saying you are one of course. I'm mean come on, we know how cheap the hardware has to be to produce and how cheap drives are these days. You can buy the stock WD10EURX drive from the Roamio Plus for $65. How much do you really think the rest of the hardware and case really cost? They have a huge margin.

Most all of the software development has a fairly sunk cost from long ago as the core is essentially the same with a bunch of UI tweaks over the years that couldn't have cost a fortune. That cost hasn't had to go up a ton over the years while hardware cost has to be going down. Their monthly and lifetime fess are fairly outrageous for essentially just providing guide data. (Yes I know I'm *****ing about price even though I just came back to TiVo anyway. LOL). Windows Media Centers have been giving guide data away for free for years! So, what is that marked up monthly fee or lifetime really for? Let's not say software development. I've already stated a bunch of that money was spent years ago. If it truly were for current software development, then for that kind of monthly fee or lifetime price these units should have been able to use every streaming service that a less than $100 Roku box can provide today.

So anyone who even remotely thinks that a "cut rate" $600 Roamio Plus price including Lifetime means TiVo isn't making money is out of their mind. If the company financials say they are losing money, then someone in upper management isn't handling the money right.

Edit: The one thing that really pissed me off the most making the switch back to Tivo was having to pay a Lifetime subscription fee for the Mini? I'm mean really? What the hell is that for and I dare someone to justify to me why that thing with no hard drive and a singular purpose serving content from a host TiVo should cost that much when an Xbox 360 4GB flash unit as an MCE extender can do the same and so much more from an MCE HTPC. Just about every single streaming service is on that Xbox you use as MCE Extender only. HBO Go, Netflix, Amazon, you name it. Yet I pay the same price for a Mini with lifetime just to send video to the bedroom from a TiVo in the living room and get none of those streaming services or the ability to play a game (if I were a gamer). Pretty ridiculous. The TiVo mini should have no monthly or lifetime fee at all. That thing is a cheap slave to the other TiVo's and can't even use a bunch of streaming services an Xbox 360 for the same price can??? Makes no sense. It should be sold for enough above hardware cost for them to make a profit. Honestly, if Microsoft hadn't decided to tell MCE users to F off with Windows 8 by making them pay extra for Media Center with no upgrades to that portion of the OS at all, I really don't think I'd have come back to TiVo. But, now that I'm back and have paid the money I feel I fully have a right to ***** about the TiVo shortcomings. ;-)


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## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

Send Zatz (best TiVo blogger I know of) a couple bucks if you are planning on buying. 

Use his affiliate link from his Twitter feed.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489138972392960000
I wonder how much he gets per sale? 1%? 2%?


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

I think they "fixed" the Tivo50 code, it now states it's no longer valid and doesn't adjust the price.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

That guide data is getting sent to me regardless of which of my new or old boxes it goes into, so that $200 half-price lifetime is pure gravy for them. And they're getting more profit on the Roamio Plus hardware than Amazon is selling it for $349.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

deepthinker said:


> I've been away from TiVo for awhile and I've always found this kind of comment fascinating, especially from TiVo fanatics, not saying you are one of course. I'm mean come on, we know how cheap the hardware has to be to produce and how cheap drives are these days. You can buy the stock WD10EURX drive from the Roamio Plus for $65. How much do you really think the rest of the hardware and case really cost? They have a huge margin.
> 
> Most all of the software development has a fairly sunk cost from long ago as the core is essentially the same with a bunch of UI tweaks over the years that couldn't have cost a fortune. That cost hasn't had to go up a ton over the years while hardware cost has to be going down. Their monthly and lifetime fess are fairly outrageous for essentially just providing guide data. (Yes I know I'm *****ing about price even though I just came back to TiVo anyway. LOL). Windows Media Centers have been giving guide data away for free for years! So, what is that marked up monthly fee or lifetime really for? Let's not say software development. I've already stated a bunch of that money was spent years ago. If it truly were for current software development, then for that kind of monthly fee or lifetime price these units should have been able to use every streaming service that a less than $100 Roku box can provide today.
> 
> ...


You pay for the guide data because you pay less than you should for the hardware.

Tivo doesn't even have close to the economy of scale of an Xbox 360. They don't really sell that many units a year. Their costs are higher.


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> You pay for the guide data because you pay less than you should for the hardware.
> 
> Tivo doesn't even have close to the economy of scale of an Xbox 360. They don't really sell that many units a year. Their costs are higher.


Wow really? Please tell me you're not trying to be yet another TiVo apologist and grab just onto the Xbox from everything I said. Yes I'm fully aware the TiVo user base is way smaller than that of Xbox and isn't anywhere near the size of that community and fully understand the concept of economies of scale. That being said the TiVo Roamio Plus is priced at $400 before monthly fees or lifetime price and I've already said the stock drive costs $64 right now on Amazon and Newegg, so you think that it costs another $336 or more to make and they have to have the sub or lifetime to break even. Seriously? Also, would you say the Roku user base is insanely higher than TiVo? I was in Sam's Club the other day and didn't know until I saw it, but there is a Roku stick that looks like a thumb drive being sold now that just plugs into the HDMI port on your TV and has a remote. If those guys can offer all of those streaming services for a device that costs $50 and plugs straight into an HDMI port and manage to stay in business, are you trying to tell me that TiVo could haven't gotten their financials and direction in order with the realities of the modern world by now to at least offer more than Netflix, Hulu, and crippled Amazon? LOL


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

I had to call Tivo for some changes on my account and to just say I tried, I inquired if there were any discounts for existing Roamio customers for lifetime service and was told no. Even when mentioning the current promotion, all they stated was if you had purchased a Roamio within the last 30 days they could but otherwise no.

Bummer....


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

deepthinker said:


> So anyone who even remotely thinks that a "cut rate" $600 Roamio Plus price including Lifetime means TiVo isn't making money is out of their mind. If the company financials say they are losing money, then someone in upper management isn't handling the money right.


According to TiVo's financial statements from last quarter, their gross margins on hardware sales are about 6% and their gross margins on service fees are about 62%. And that's before things like marketing expenses and taxes are taken out. So getting a 60% discount on the service fee for the Roamio Plus is actually a very good deal.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

deepthinker said:


> Wow really? Please tell me you're not trying to be yet another TiVo apologist and grab just onto the Xbox from everything I said. Yes I'm fully aware the TiVo user base is way smaller than that of Xbox and isn't anywhere near the size of that community and fully understand the concept of economies of scale. That being said the TiVo Roamio Plus is priced at $400 before monthly fees or lifetime price and I've already said the stock drive costs $64 right now on Amazon and Newegg, so you think that it costs another $336 or more to make and they have to have the sub or lifetime to break even. Seriously? Also, would you say the Roku user base is insanely higher than TiVo? I was in Sam's Club the other day and didn't know until I saw it, but there is a Roku stick that looks like a thumb drive being sold now that just plugs into the HDMI port on your TV and has a remote. If those guys can offer all of those streaming services for a device that costs $50 and plugs straight into an HDMI port and manage to stay in business, are you trying to tell me that TiVo could haven't gotten their financials and direction in order with the realities of the modern world by now to at least offer more than Netflix, Hulu, and crippled Amazon? LOL


I personally agree that the Tivo hardware is terribly overpriced. It's much like the cell phone market were but even then, while they tell you are buying a $600 cell phone, they mark down the price to $200 but put you in a 2 year contract.

It's the monthly fees that are the money maker for Tivo but then they turn around and charge a premium price for the hardware because they have no real competition other than the cable company rentals. Simple states they are cutting their own throats by over charging their hardware.

I really feel Tivo sales could skyrocket if they didn't have over priced hardware, everyone I talk to who considers Tivo is instantly turned off by being forced to buy a $400 box and then pay a monthly fee. As I understand that Tivo has fairly little in debt and a considerable amount of cash assets, it's a shame they don't chose to be more successful given they do have a good product.


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> According to TiVo's financial statements from last quarter, their gross margins on hardware sales are about 6% and their gross margins on service fees are about 62%. And that's before things like marketing expenses and taxes are taken out. So getting a 60% discount on the service fee for the Roamio Plus is actually a very good deal.


Okay, I don't pay attention to TiVo financials, but there is the problem right there! They are raping people with service fees with a 62% margin while still making a small profit on the hardware. If recent history has shown us anything it is that people are cord cutting to avoid fees more and more, although those same people then turn around and give money to Hulu, Netflix, and Amazon. (Logic escapes most) That leads us to the fact that TiVo needs to change their business model. Go ahead and sell the unit at a higher price right off the bat and scrap this monthly and lifetime fee crap. I know the difference, but a lot of the average folks will buy a TiVo not wanting to shell out the big bucks for product+lifetime while paying a monthly fee, and then think why the hell am I paying this monthly fee even for an OTA Roamio that has next to no Net streaming features, when I already have a monthly fee free Roku, Bluray player, etc with way more streaming services on all of them. Sell the TiVo hardware with the cost it takes to make along with a decent markup, but then make damn sure it can work with any streaming service that a cheap Roku, Apple TV, Bluray player can and still be a DVR. People will pay it. I've owned a Sony PS3 I paid $500 for years ago because it was the best and most future proof Bluray player on the planet. That same original gen PS3 now plays 3d Blurays and we're paying this much and TiVo still doesn't have every streaming service?

It's really kind of hilarious for them to market "Stop giving exorbitant fees to your cables company for your box!" when we make a 62% profit margin off of your service fees for giving you free guide data. LOL

A lot of folks today have a Roku, Apple TV, Bluray player, and hell even the cheapest Smart TV's that can stream just about every popular streaming service on the planet, outside of closed iTunes stuff on ATV, and a lot of folks have multiple combinations of those units. Think about how much they paid for all of those. If Tivo could just come out with say a Roamio OTA/CableCard unit for those that want to cord cut or are thinking about it that offered all of the most popular streaming services with no monthly or lifetime fee at a set price, even if it cost $600-700 dollars I bet people would snap them up like hotcakes. Everyone wants the ideal one box to rule them all and this would do it. OTA HD with access to all popular streaming services=HOMERUN! There is no excuse why they can't. Spend some of that cash and get the streaming services in order in the software on a Roamio..


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

deepthinker said:


> Okay, I don't pay attention to TiVo financials, but there is the problem right there! They are raping people with service fees with a 62% margin while still making a small profit on the hardware.


You did notice those were gross margins, right? Gross margins on digital services tend to be large because the cost of goods sold is very low. I suggest you read TiVo's 10Q before screaming "rape". 
-- Doug


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

deepthinker said:


> I've been away from TiVo for awhile and I've always found this kind of comment fascinating, especially from TiVo fanatics, not saying you are one of course. I'm mean come on, we know how cheap the hardware has to be to produce and how cheap drives are these days. You can buy the stock WD10EURX drive from the Roamio Plus for $65. How much do you really think the rest of the hardware and case really cost? They have a huge margin.
> 
> Most all of the software development has a fairly sunk cost from long ago as the core is essentially the same with a bunch of UI tweaks over the years that couldn't have cost a fortune. That cost hasn't had to go up a ton over the years while hardware cost has to be going down. Their monthly and lifetime fess are fairly outrageous for essentially just providing guide data. (Yes I know I'm *****ing about price even though I just came back to TiVo anyway. LOL). Windows Media Centers have been giving guide data away for free for years! So, what is that marked up monthly fee or lifetime really for? Let's not say software development. I've already stated a bunch of that money was spent years ago. If it truly were for current software development, then for that kind of monthly fee or lifetime price these units should have been able to use every streaming service that a less than $100 Roku box can provide today.
> 
> ...


The facts aren't complicated, no company is trying to compete with TiVo with DVRs to sell to consumers directly because there are no profits, look to Moxi, ReplayTV, LG, Sony and probably a half dozen others that tried and failed and got out. TiVo has rarely or never shown a profit from operations, this $300 discount definitely cuts deeply into any profits on a per unit basis. I suspect the bottom line will be a net loss per box sold, there is zero chance the retail price resulted in $300 profit per DVR sold.

If you know how to make a device like this profitably, provide the service, customer support, hardware, accept customer returns, and do so for years, go ahead and step forward and do it. Nobody is stopping you just like nobody is stopping all of the others who aren't trying either. Nobody is trying for a good reason, it is not as easy as you try to make it sound.

I suspect Microsoft did poorly with Windows Media Center which wasn't well received by a market willing to pay anything for that product so Microsoft won't bother with trying to support it and develop it further and I never thought it was worth messing with despite owning several PCs that included it. I played with it and let it be, preferring to use TiVo.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

deepthinker said:


> Wow really? Please tell me you're not trying to be yet another TiVo apologist and grab just onto the Xbox from everything I said. Yes I'm fully aware the TiVo user base is way smaller than that of Xbox and isn't anywhere near the size of that community and fully understand the concept of economies of scale. That being said the TiVo Roamio Plus is priced at $400 before monthly fees or lifetime price and I've already said the stock drive costs $64 right now on Amazon and Newegg, so you think that it costs another $336 or more to make and they have to have the sub or lifetime to break even. Seriously? Also, would you say the Roku user base is insanely higher than TiVo? I was in Sam's Club the other day and didn't know until I saw it, but there is a Roku stick that looks like a thumb drive being sold now that just plugs into the HDMI port on your TV and has a remote. If those guys can offer all of those streaming services for a device that costs $50 and plugs straight into an HDMI port and manage to stay in business, are you trying to tell me that TiVo could haven't gotten their financials and direction in order with the realities of the modern world by now to at least offer more than Netflix, Hulu, and crippled Amazon? LOL


Show me an off the shelf DVR that costs so much less than Tivo. If Tivo is making such a killing why haven't others entered the market?

Their latest press release says 4.5 million total Tivo subscribers. 3.5 million of those are MSO subscribers meaning they get their Tivo box from the cable company. Less than 1 million own their own Tivo. 51% of those 1 million pay recurring fees. The rest would be lifetime subscribers and of those 160k have fully amortized lifetime subscriptions meaning those folks have really old Tivos.

Roku sold 5 million units in 2013 alone.

I find it ironic you fight one extreme with another after recognizing the other extreme. You counter someone saying no way is Tivo making money off this sale with Tivo is making a killing and is so overpriced its ridiculous. The actual truth is in the middle somewhere. I wouldn't say no way could they be making money off $599 but I also know they are not raking in ridiculous profits either at $750 or $800. They have been barely afloat the past 5 years. Only recently ...in the past year... has their financial health improved somewhat due to settlement of the IP lawsuits and renewed relationships with MSOs.

Next I'm not sure it's up to Tivo to make Netflix or Amazon apps for their system. I think that's up to those corporations. afaik Apple doesn't make Tivo's iOS app. I think it is the same dealio on Tivo. I think the reason why they get short thrifted on Tivo is because of the relatively low install base.

I also think there are more difference between the Roku and Mini than meets the eye like the Mini probably decodes MPEG2 streams I would think while the Roku I would think doesn't. And then there are obvious differences like the Mini has a much nicer remote.

And regarding the Xbox again, don't forget it has lost money for MS overall since its inception. And MS makes $10 billion in profit per year in OS, OFfice and server software. They have many more resources than Tivo in more ways than one.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Anyway I bought another Roamio with the $50 code. They did the switcheroo with the price after the order was placed, but cc shows the $550 charge. I took screenshots before I placed the order. 

I couldn't resist trying to get a Tivo for another $50 less. Now I have to return one or sell it. I don't need 2. I have to see if I can avoid paying for return shipping.


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Show me an off the shelf DVR that costs so much less than Tivo. If Tivo is making such a killing why haven't others entered the market?
> 
> Their latest press release says 4.5 million total Tivo subscribers. That's counting MSO subs too I think.
> 
> ...


All very valid points than the previous poster to yours that seemed to be a bit more vitriolic. I admit I chose wrong words like "raping" etc, bit never said they were making a killing, just trying to counterpoint someone saying they are losing money with a deal like this one. I was mainly trying to make the point that those who truly think they are taking a loss on these units at a $600 price with lifetime are deluding themselves. No one seems to be refuting my conclusion with solid numbers at all other than to just refute me. Is anyone here really willing to try and tell me that beyond the Roamio Plus stock WD10EURX, that I can buy at Amazon for $64 right now that they definitely get cheaper in bulk, that the rest of the Roamio hardware cost another $335?

Are there other off the shelf DVR's worth a damn that work with both OTA/Cablecard worth a damn, no. Doesn't mean Tivo has to sit on their laurels and can keep charging high prices for these monthly fees and lifetime subs. Like I said this new generation are cord cutters for the most part,my son being one. If they just did a flat price with no monthly fee or extra lifetime fees that could capture the current generation. Now, if they make these boxes start being able to stream the most popular services like Roku's, etc,, then I think it's on and they have a home run. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from TiVo, hell I just came back after a multi-year absence, but I needed to get back to my original conclusion of the OP. They aren't "losing" money selling a $600 Roamio Plus with lifetime sub. Didn't say there we making a killing. Also as one had said about them barely staying afloat. Well considering the reasonable hardware prices and jacked up service fees, then if this company is barely staying afloat, then in my mind they need to find a new CEO.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Anyway I bought another Roamio with the $50 code. They did the switcheroo with the price after the order was placed, but cc shows the $550 charge. I took screenshots before I placed the order.
> 
> I couldn't resist trying to get a Tivo for another $50 less. Now I have to return one or sell it. I don't need 2. I have to see if I can avoid paying for return shipping.


If you get a case number and fax TiVo your screen shot you will get the checkout price, have to talk one level up from the CSR that answers the phone, if you can ask for Jaron as he now familiar with the problem. TiVo knows that you can't charge somebody more than the checkout price on your screen, even if it is a mistake.


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## Bytez (Sep 11, 2004)

digitalfirefly said:


> I ordered the Roamio Pro and used the Tivo50 code. Invoice say $982, but the charge to my credit card was $782. We'll see how it goes.
> 
> If I like how the minis work I will have 2 XL4s and a Premiere XL for sale in the near future.


You should have got a code from ebay to get the Pro, it would be $699.99 with lifetime.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

But the code costs $49 so it would have worked out the same cost. Also why risk $49 on an unknown code when the Tivo50 code was already working and giving the same known target final price on the tivo.com checkout page? It's not like Tivo wasn't going to charge him tax on the ebay deal even if it worked.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

deepthinker said:


> All very valid points than the previous poster to yours that seemed to be a bit more vitriolic. I admit I chose wrong words like "raping" etc, bit never said they were making a killing, just trying to counterpoint someone saying they are losing money with a deal like this one. I was mainly trying to make the point that those who truly think they are taking a loss on these units at a $600 price with lifetime are deluding themselves. No one seems to be refuting my conclusion with solid numbers at all other than to just refute me. Is anyone here really willing to try and tell me that beyond the Roamio Plus stock WD10EURX, that I can buy at Amazon for $64 right now that they definitely get cheaper in bulk, that the rest of the Roamio hardware cost another $335?
> 
> Are there other off the shelf DVR's worth a damn that work with both OTA/Cablecard worth a damn, no. Doesn't mean Tivo has to sit on their laurels and can keep charging high prices for these monthly fees and lifetime subs. Like I said this new generation are cord cutters for the most part,my son being one. If they just did a flat price with no monthly fee or extra lifetime fees that could capture the current generation. Now, if they make these boxes start being able to stream the most popular services like Roku's, etc,, then I think it's on and they have a home run. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from TiVo, hell I just came back after a multi-year absence, but I needed to get back to my original conclusion of the OP. They aren't "losing" money selling a $600 Roamio Plus with lifetime sub. Didn't say there we making a killing. Also as one had said about them barely staying afloat. Well considering the reasonable hardware prices and jacked up service fees, then if this company is barely staying afloat, then in my mind they need to find a new CEO.


YOu don't have any numbers to refute. Your only "number" is the price of a hard drive. There's been plenty of reasons, logic and some numbers that show profit margins and number of subscribers that dispute your notion that Tivo is making a killing on profits.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

deepthinker said:


> [...]those who truly think they are taking a loss on these units at a $600 price with lifetime are deluding themselves. No one seems to be refuting my conclusion with solid numbers at all other than to just refute me. Is anyone here really willing to try and tell me that beyond the Roamio Plus stock WD10EURX, that I can buy at Amazon for $64 right now that they definitely get cheaper in bulk, that the rest of the Roamio hardware cost another $335?


So based on your logic any commodity PC over $300-$400 is a cash cow, right? Yet other than Apple what PC manufacturer makes money? And these manufactureres are getting huge volume discounts on parts selling millions per month. TiVo does 25,000 - 40,000 units a month and outsources manufacturingg to Pace,LLC who also takes a cut of the price. And units sold wholesale to Best Buy and Amazon are marked down in price.

But what about that cash cow of monthly fees and lifetime? Let's see how much is left over after paying for 600 TiVo employees @ $80K/yr. That's a yearly recurring cost of $48 million.

Other yearly recurring costs include: R&D costs, manufacturing costs, shipping costs, returned unit costs, building leasing costs, marketing expenses, stock option costs, corporate taxes, misc company expenses,etc.

Companies need to generate profits that's just part of capitalism.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

trip1eX said:


> You don't have any numbers to refute. Your only "number" is the price of a hard drive. There's been plenty of reasons, logic and some numbers that show profit margins and number of subscribers that dispute your notion that Tivo is making a killing on profits.


Some numbers:
Virgin Tivo teardown $132

Premiere XL teardown $167


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## elborak (Jul 15, 2014)

series5orpremier said:


> But the code costs $49


They are $49 if you BIN, but they are also "make offer". And if you look at the order history you can see that they accept most offers.

In other words, $49 is at least twice what you can actually get them for.


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## DancyMunchkin (Jul 7, 2014)

CloudAtlas said:


> So based on your logic any commodity PC over $300-$400 is a cash cow, right?


deepthinker is anything but.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> .....
> Roku sold 5 million units in 2013 alone.
> 
> .....


You are thinking of the Apple TV. They sold 5 million Apple TVs in fiscal year 2012. It took Roku five years to sell 5 million Rokus. In 2013 they finally hit the 5 million mark.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

lessd said:


> If you get a case number and fax TiVo your screen shot you will get the checkout price, have to talk one level up from the CSR that answers the phone, if you can ask for Jaron as he now familiar with the problem. TiVo knows that you can't charge somebody more than the checkout price on your screen, even if it is a mistake.


Thanks. I may try to talk to "Jaron" today.

Looks like TiVo shipped me 2 units after all, instead of just one. One of them should have been cancelled, and is priced at $925.

I have to call them for a 3rd time today to straighten that out.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

eboydog said:


> So Basicly they are selling lifetime service for $200 off??
> 
> Just my luck, I upgraded to a pro just a little over a month ago, had I known this was going to happen, I would have waited. Still tempted, I could always sell my Pro without lifetime later.
> 
> Would be nice if they offer the $200 off lifetime to existing customers, I would take that!


I'm an existing customer and got the offer via email.


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## dcline414 (May 1, 2014)

No deal on the basic model? Tivo really does hate their OTA customers.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> You are thinking of the Apple TV. They sold 5 million Apple TVs in fiscal year 2012. It took Roku five years to sell 5 million Rokus. In 2013 they finally hit the 5 million mark.


No I had the right product. But I got the years wrong as it was quick google search while i was writing post. Roku sold 5 million over past 5 years.

Tivo in comparison has less than 1 million customer owned devices in the wild. That's going back alot more than 5 years too.

btw that number includes Minis as well and essentially all lifetime subs as long as they have contacted Tivo in last 6 months.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

telemark said:


> Some numbers:
> Virgin Tivo teardown $132
> 
> Premiere XL teardown $167


A number:

6 channel cablecard tuner $280


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## deepthinker (Oct 25, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> YOu don't have any numbers to refute. Your only "number" is the price of a hard drive. There's been plenty of reasons, logic and some numbers that show profit margins and number of subscribers that dispute your notion that Tivo is making a killing on profits.


Once again, I said specifically at the end of my last post that I didn't mean to say they were making a killing profit wise, just that the thought that TiVo "loses money" selling a Roamio Pro with lifetime for $600 is a bit ludicrous of a statement IMHO. This will be my last post regarding my statements. I honestly didn't mean to hijack the the thread about the deal and don't want to continue to do so.


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## IRJ (Jan 9, 2009)

I got around to buying a Romaio Pro on this offer so thanks Guys

Minor issue to note. Recently Tivo have been having a software glitch on their checkout page. I sign in as an existing Tivo user and get free shipping, but when I try to click to finalize the transaction an error message comes up and tells me I have NOT chosen a shipping option. But I have no option on the screen page to make a choice. Speaking to Tivo this is a know problem (I had to make the purchase by telephone). They are working to resolve the issue. Meantime they say if you refresh that page sometimes the option boxes come on and one has 2-3 seconds of time to a make the choice before the screen looses the option...

Now all I need is a "deal" on a couple of Tivo Minis + Lifetime (presently $250 a pop).


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## eric102 (Oct 31, 2012)

IRJ said:


> I got around to buying a Romaio Pro on this offer so thanks Guys
> 
> Minor issue to note. Recently Tivo have been having a software glitch on their checkout page. I sign in as an existing Tivo user and get free shipping, but when I try to click to finalize the transaction an error message comes up and tells me I have NOT chosen a shipping option. But I have no option on the screen page to make a choice. Speaking to Tivo this is a know problem (I had to make the purchase by telephone). They are working to resolve the issue. Meantime they say if you refresh that page sometimes the option boxes come on and one has 2-3 seconds of time to a make the choice before the screen looses the option...
> 
> Now all I need is a "deal" on a couple of Tivo Minis + Lifetime (presently $250 a pop).


$174 a pop if you purchase an Ebay code.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

digitalfirefly said:


> I ordered the Roamio Pro and used the Tivo50 code. Invoice say $982, but the charge to my credit card was $782. We'll see how it goes.
> 
> If I like how the minis work I will have 2 XL4s and a Premiere XL for sale in the near future.


Did anyone using the Tivo50 see the pre-authorization charge go up when the transaction cleared?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

jwbelcher said:


> Did anyone using the Tivo50 see the pre-authorization charge go up when the transaction cleared?


This isn't proof, but I did call up Tivo and they said it would be charged at the higher price.

They ended up canceling my order for me instead of giving me the $550 price even though it shipped. I checked the tracking number and it says they did a return to sender request on the package. It was already in KS after leaving TX.

I would have fought it but I already had a Tivo on the way. And thought it is better to not to deal with shipping one back or attempting to resell it.

In hindsight, if I knew Tivo could easily issue a return to sender request I might have canceled my first Tivo at $599. And then fought them and got the $550 price on the 2nd one.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

jwbelcher said:


> Did anyone using the Tivo50 see the pre-authorization charge go up when the transaction cleared?


If they did that after delivering the Tivo, that would be illegal.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

series5orpremier said:


> If they did that after delivering the Tivo, that would be illegal.


I just meant in the pre-authorization sense. For example, when a gas stations charges $1 before you fill up, but once the charge clears, its for the actual price. Since folks were seeing the lower price on the pre-auth, I was curious if it cleared at the discounted price. I got a different code that gives 50 bucks off and didn't know if it was worth burning it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> No I had the right product. But I got the years wrong as it was quick google search while i was writing post. Roku sold 5 million over past 5 years.
> 
> Tivo in comparison has less than 1 million customer owned devices in the wild. That's going back alot more than 5 years too.
> 
> btw that number includes Minis as well and essentially all lifetime subs as long as they have contacted Tivo in last 6 months.


TiVo has alot more than one million. One million is all they can count that are either paying monthly or within a few years of the initial lifetime order. After a certain number of years, lifetime TiVos are not counted any more.

My GF still has two of my original S3 TiVos that I got back in 2006. She is not counted in the 1 million TiVo number, even though she has two.


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## digitalfirefly (Apr 15, 2005)

jwbelcher said:


> Did anyone using the Tivo50 see the pre-authorization charge go up when the transaction cleared?


I still have a pending charge of $782 on my card. It shipped yesterday and should be here Monday.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jaj2276 (Dec 25, 2007)

Just went back in and looked at my Pending charges. It had been at 799.99 (Roamio Plus w/ Lifetime + Mini w/ Lifetime). 

I now see *two* charges from Tivo, one at 799.99 and the other at 999.99. I will start the good fight.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I have FIVE pending charges.

Awaiting a call back from Jaron @ TiVo.


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## jaj2276 (Dec 25, 2007)

Spoke to chat support, he said they can't do any credits/refunds so I needed to call the 877 #.

Called that # and got a support person who sounds like he's been dealing with this issue all day. After a few minutes on hold he said the only way they can do any sort of adjustment is for me to get the item, return it, and then get issued a new item. He couldn't do any of that so he transferred me to some other department.

Spoke to that person who said that there wasn't any way to get the $799 price point and that the only way to get adjusted to $849 was to wait for 30 days (I guess after the money-back guarantee period) and call them up and then they'd issue the credit. I was a bit shocked to say the least. Basically Tivo was saying that due to their screwup I had to give them back $50 and front them $150 for 30 days.

I told them then to just forget it, that I didn't want it, but because it had already been shipped I had to receive it, call up within the 30 days, and return it. I'll see if I can refuse shipment from UPS and then I'll just dispute with my credit card.

Honestly, the thing that has upset me about all this is not the $50 but that everyone at Tivo who I've spoken to has blamed *me* for getting this discount that I wasn't entitled to. As if I did something shady to get the discount applied. I love their product but they suck as a company.

Oh well, guess I can find something else to use my $799 on. I've got 18 months left on my Tivo Premiere before I try to get $99 lifetime and with this latest update, the Premiere is at least in the ballpark of a Roamio (fortunately I don't use more than 4 tuners that often).


----------



## FTD (Mar 7, 2007)

jaj2276 said:


> Honestly, the thing that has upset me about all this is not the $50 but that everyone at Tivo who I've spoken to has blamed *me* for getting this discount that I wasn't entitled to. As if I did something shady to get the discount applied. I love their product but they suck as a company.


I have been in since 2006 and never had a CSR be able to help with any type of discounts. I am always envious of those who are able to get discounts, especially on lifetime.

Where did this Tivo50 discount come from?


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

I ordered Wednesday afternoon and my CC still shows a pre-authorization of $572 (as it showed on my order page when I placed the order). No additional charges pending at this time.

The box also shipped out on Wednesday and is expected to deliver on Friday. I guess I'll have to keep checking my online CC status and see if the charge goes through as $572 or any other changes. I don't want to refuse the shipment if I do wind up getting charged the $572 as I was expecting to. If it's $772, they can keep it and have it shipped back on their dime.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> TiVo has alot more than one million. One million is all they can count that are either paying monthly or within a few years of the initial lifetime order. After a certain number of years, lifetime TiVos are not counted any more.
> 
> My GF still has two of my original S3 TiVos that I got back in 2006. She is not counted in the 1 million TiVo number, even though she has two.


From the financial report:

_"We count product lifetime subscriptions in our subscription base until both of the following conditions are met: (i) the period we use to recognize product lifetime subscription revenues ends; and (ii) the related TiVo-enabled device has not made contact to the TiVo service within the prior six month period."_

IN other words if your lifetime Tivo has phoned home at least once every 6 months then it is counted no matter how old.

And remember Minis are included in the subscription number.

Also in the 2014 quarter ending April, they only added 32,000 new subscriptions. That means at best they sold 32,000 new Roamios, Minis and Premieres. And overall they lost 9000 subscribers meaning more old equipment was canceled than new equipment bought.

It is actually a bit shocking how few units they sell via retail given how well known the Tivo name is.

Their MSO business though is going the other direction. They have 3.5 milllion MSO subscribers. They added 340,000 of those last quarter ending April 2014 and nearly 2 million since July of 2012.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

jaj2276 said:


> I told them then to just forget it, that I didn't want it, but because it had already been shipped I had to receive it, call up within the 30 days, and return it. I'll see if I can refuse shipment from UPS and then I'll just dispute with my credit card.


Tivo can call back the shipment. They called back mine and it had already crossed into Kansas.


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## Wiggum (Jun 11, 2004)

My unit shipped today. Still no change in my pricing as of yet. I will have to continue to monitor it.

I actually meant to use a virtual credit card one time use number but totally forgot.


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## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

trip1eX said:


> It is actually a bit shocking how few units they sell via retail given how well known the Tivo name is.


I think their obstacle is the initial purchase price. Many folks don't have the money or don't want to spend hundreds of dollars to buy a DVR. It's far easier to get one for free* from their local cable company.

*Of course, they're not free -- and in the long are more expensive than a TiVo. And a POS too...

With smartphones it's the opposite. People look at the initial purchase price and don't give a thought to the cost of the two-year contract (which can be $2,000 or more). Yet they fixate on buying a phone for $50 or $100.


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## jaj2276 (Dec 25, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> Tivo can call back the shipment. They called back mine and it had already crossed into Kansas.


I know they can (I had read your earlier post) but they claimed they could not. Luckily a UPS guy stops by my work almost daily (which is also where they are delivering it) so it's not too much hassle for me to just leave the Tivo/Mini box there and have the guy pick it back up the next day.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

jaj2276 said:


> I know they can (I had read your earlier post) but they claimed they could not. Luckily a UPS guy stops by my work almost daily (which is also where they are delivering it) so it's not too much hassle for me to just leave the Tivo/Mini box there and have the guy pick it back up the next day.


I wouldn't trust the wait 30 days either. If I still wanted one, I'd buy another with the discount and return this one. After 30 they can basically do what they want with no recourse.


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## jaj2276 (Dec 25, 2007)

I'm really hoping that as soon as I call them up to have it returned (day 1 of 30), they'll realize how silly they're being and give me the $200 credit that I feel I'm due.

If not, then off it goes and I'll wait for a better deal to come along. If I didn't already have a Tivo premiere w/ the latest summer update and a Tivo HD lifetime'd, I might be singing a different tune.

In my office of 8 people, I've gotten three others to buy Roamio + Mini combinations. Too bad there's not a way for me to get credit for that!


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## Phasers (May 29, 2008)

cwoody222 said:


> On the phone with them now. When the TiVo50 code is used it removes the other discount which bumps up the price dramatically.
> 
> The CSR rep is telling me using both codes is not allowed and she can't overwrite it. She's making me choose one or the other.
> 
> ...


This is why we can't have nice things.

You don't call and alert them that a promo code is working online when it shouldn't be! You take a screenshot and if for whatever reason they try and charge you more later, you dispute it with your credit card.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Phasers said:


> This is why we can't have nice things.
> 
> You don't call and alert them that a promo code is working online when it shouldn't be! You take a screenshot and if for whatever reason they try and charge you more later, you dispute it with your credit card.


For an item you have received this would work, but TiVo could cut off your service and the credit card co. would be of no help.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> From the financial report:
> 
> _"We count product lifetime subscriptions in our subscription base until both of the following conditions are met: (i) the period we use to recognize product lifetime subscription revenues ends; and (ii) the related TiVo-enabled device has not made contact to the TiVo service within the prior six month period."_
> 
> ...


I thought their policy used to be different? If they still count TiVos connecting, then why do their numbers keep dropping? I know I've sold at least twenty boxes that had lifetime service.

This truly makes it fell like the retail TiVo is definitely is near the end of it's life.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Phasers said:


> This is why we can't have nice things.
> 
> You don't call and alert them that a promo code is working online when it shouldn't be! You take a screenshot and if for whatever reason they try and charge you more later, you dispute it with your credit card.


For a difference of $50 I would have done that. But this was a difference of $300 and I wasn't going to take the chance (of having to pay or having to return it altogether).

I also will be selling my current unit to recoup some of the cost so I didn't want this new unit to be in limbo while we figured it out.

As it stands now I have 1 unit shipping that's "correctly" priced at $650 (after taxes) which I'm willing to pay (but I'd rather get that TiVo50 deal applied).

I have 1 other supposedly cancelled unit supposedly shipping at $925+tax which will be returned / refused for a full refund. That was a mistake (on TiVo's behalf). I was told it was cancelled and did not ship, but it looks like it did.

Then I have a slew of pending $925 charges (the phone rep made numerous attempts to get me both discounts, then cancelled) that I need to still clear up.

TiVo really messed up on this deal! No good deed... (on both our behalves!)


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## dcline414 (May 1, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> I thought their policy used to be different? If they still count TiVos connecting, then why do their numbers keep dropping? I know I've sold at least twenty boxes that had lifetime service.
> 
> This truly makes it fell like the retail TiVo is definitely is near the end of it's life.


And yet there are dozens of ATSC/QAM DVR-capable coming out. Makes you wonder why Tivo is so oblivious to where the real growth opportunity is.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> I thought their policy used to be different? If they still count TiVos connecting, then why do their numbers keep dropping? I know I've sold at least twenty boxes that had lifetime service.
> 
> This truly makes it fell like the retail TiVo is definitely is near the end of it's life.


I thought it used be be one of the two conditions being met, not both, and not worded quite the same (even a one word difference can make a LOT of difference). Under the way I remembered it, they couldn't/didn't count units past a certain period, no matter what, when they were lifetime subs.

Given TiVoMargret's withdrawal from the level of "TiVo cares" interaction she once provided (which there is no equal replacement for), I feel cheated. Sure, people can quote what her official title is, and/or say it was completely voluntary on her part. I've already heard those arguments.

I can't help but wonder if she was directed to stop making their half-azzed outsourced support provider look bad. My attitude towards TiVo was headed more positive with her prior level of active involvement. Now, it's headed back to where it used to be.

As far the retail subscription numbers go, I don't know what to make of that. I think retail's (our) true value to TiVo is as a platform TiVo can use us to test on, and work the bugs out for the MSO partners. The days of having so many TiVos, that participating in a beta or field trial was no big deal, are gone. How else are they going to test anything on any meaningful scale?

Once the MSO partnerships and "can't beat 'em, so might as well join 'em" transitions get far enough along, retail will be become a burden they'll want to be rid of. How long that will take, I don't know.

I see all kinds of reasons, and indications, pointing to the end of the road for retail. Even if the MSO partner direction goes south, I don't see that as something that would bring retail hope. IMO, the retail channel is doomed.

Unless something happens that makes "bring your own equipment" easier for all involved, without taking away the ability to skip commercials (like the recent announcements about Comcast & TiVo eliminating cablecard might result in), it may just be a matter of time before TiVo isn't any better than what the MSOs offer, or the only way to get a TiVo anymore is through the MSOs.

I guess I had better wrap all this up with: disclaimer - these are my opinions, views, feelings, and best semi-educated guesses.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

dcline414 said:


> And yet there are dozens of ATSC/QAM DVR-capable coming out. Makes you wonder why Tivo is so oblivious to where the real growth opportunity is.


Now that TiVo is in bed with the MSOs, what makes you think they would want anything to do with OTA? It's probably only still supported on the Roamio Basic as a stopgap measure, until they are done with retail, IMO.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

TiVo has never had a retail channel that made money. Back in the early days it was the DirecTV deal that pumped up the numbers, now it is cable partners. Not enough people care about what TiVo does better. All most people want or need is a digital version of a VCR. They don't know any better.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> All most people want or need is a digital version of a VCR. They don't know any better.


Yes and most people don't want to make an up front payment which is why Tivo is doing much better on the MSO front. I'd also toss in "having the cable company handle the install and activation" as another reason why Tivo's MSO business is doing much better than their retail business.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

My Roamio is here.... I got a cablecard this morning.....I can hardly wait....

I gotta go fly a kite with my kids though first.


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## dcline414 (May 1, 2014)

nooneuknow said:


> Now that TiVo is in bed with the MSOs, what makes you think they would want anything to do with OTA? It's probably only still supported on the Roamio Basic as a stopgap measure, until they are done with retail, IMO.


Why would they have to be mutually exclusive?

There is a large and growing market of consumers who want live news/sports and premium online content, and have supported a very robust retail segment of products and services that indirectly compete with some Tivo features.

If they're producing cable DVRs for a captive audience, why not utilize many of those same components to create a competitive retail product. I think their stream/mini technologies (and associated service fees) have huge retail demand, especially for non-cable customers.

I thought their goal was to get out of HARDWARE, not retail. So partnering with someone like LG or Samsung to make a box that relies on Tivo service.


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## JayBird (Jan 26, 2003)

All this business discussion aside, and getting back to the original topic of this thread, which is the offer at hand, at first glance it seems like a really enticing deal... until you look a bit closer...

It's $300 off of TiVo's full retail price for the Roamio (Plus or Pro) and non-MSD-discounted service. Note that since TiVo has cancelled the ability to use the $50 off code on top of this deal, that's no longer in the picture.

However, Roamio TiVos are available through Sam's Club for $100 off of what TiVo charges for them. And with MSD, the lifetime service is also $100 cheaper. So in reality, as someone who already has a TiVo and thus qualifies for MSD, this is really only a $100 savings, which is far less enticing.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

still 100 bucks off


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

put it this way. I have a perfectly good working Tivo HD w/lifetime

The ebay code has tempted me to get a pro w/lifetime.

Without that code or this deal my chance of buying a pro w/life time is 0%, I'll wait for the HD to die.

My chances of buying with the code or deal is around 90%, then sell the HD on ebay


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

Well, a little after lunch I saw an additional pending charge on my CC for $772 in addition to the still pending $572. I promptly called TiVo support since the box was out for delivery this afternoon. The rep apologized and immediately requested UPS to return the shipment to them (which shows on the tracking now) and told me that they could ship me another box for $622 (the amount without the $50 discount code). I told him no since I was disappointed, I wouldn't be getting the box til sometime next week, and that it was their fault and not mine for this screw up. IMO, very poor on TiVo's part. If anything, they should have offered the 3-year warranty or something for free or honored the $572 price.

I even offered another option where I buy the TiVo from Best Buy or Amazon (the latter has the box for $350) and then get the Lifetime service for $199 (since that's what was showing in the breakdown on my checkout page), but he said that the box had to be bought from TiVo.

Oh well...I'll wait for Roamio 2 or some better promo. More peeved about the principle of it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

dmk1974 said:


> Well, a little after lunch I saw an additional pending charge on my CC for $772 in addition to the still pending $572. I promptly called TiVo support since the box was out for delivery this afternoon. The rep apologized and immediately requested UPS to return the shipment to them (which shows on the tracking now) and told me that they could ship me another box for $622 (the amount without the $50 discount code). I told him no since I was disappointed, I wouldn't be getting the box til sometime next week, and that it was their fault and not mine for this screw up. IMO, very poor on TiVo's part. If anything, they should have offered the 3-year warranty or something for free or honored the $572 price.
> 
> I even offered another option where I buy the TiVo from Best Buy or Amazon (the latter has the box for $350) and then get the Lifetime service for $199 (since that's what was showing in the breakdown on my checkout page), but he said that the box had to be bought from TiVo.
> 
> Oh well...I'll wait for Roamio 2 or some better promo. More peeved about the principle of it.


Best Buy or Amazon pays much less than the retail price for their TiVos. For TiVo to give the discount on those boxes would be cutting their margins too much.


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> Best Buy or Amazon pays much less than the retail price for their TiVos. For TiVo to give the discount on those boxes would be cutting their margins too much.


I don't need the additional discount on the box vs the $350 list price at Amazon, but would hope to get it on the lifetime service ($199 vs the $399).


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

dmk1974 said:


> I'll wait for Roamio 2 or some better promo.


You may be waiting a very long time for that.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

JayBird said:


> All this business discussion aside, and getting back to the original topic of this thread, which is the offer at hand, at first glance it seems like a really enticing deal... until you look a bit closer...
> 
> It's $300 off of TiVo's full retail price for the Roamio (Plus or Pro) and non-MSD-discounted service. Note that since TiVo has cancelled the ability to use the $50 off code on top of this deal, that's no longer in the picture.
> 
> However, Roamio TiVos are available through Sam's Club for $100 off of what TiVo charges for them. And with MSD, the lifetime service is also $100 cheaper. So in reality, as someone who already has a TiVo and thus qualifies for MSD, this is really only a $100 savings, which is far less enticing.


$100 off is great plus no tax at least for me.

And I could have got this for $599 plus cost of code through ebay as detailed in the Roamio deals thread.

I was going to do that deal as it was actually . So this just avoids the code thing although I may go the code route for the Minis.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

andyw715 said:


> still 100 bucks off


Right, folks want to get upset they couldn't double dip. Meh. Its still a very good deal; its petty to get pissed. Its a shame a deal like this has caused people to feel they've been wronged in some way.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

jwbelcher said:


> Right, folks want to get upset they couldn't double dip. Meh. Its still a very good deal; its petty to get pissed. Its a shame a deal like this has caused people to feel they've been wronged in some way.


+1

I paid $739 for my Roamio Plus w/lifetime back in November and I thought I got a good deal then. $599 is a great deal.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> +1
> 
> I paid $739 for my Roamio Plus w/lifetime back in November and I thought I got a good deal then. $599 is a great deal.


Better than the $1K(plus taxes) I spent on my Roamio Pro back around launch.

Although if I had it over again I would have picked up the Plus. But I was fine with that at the time since the sale of my two Premiere Elite boxes covered most of the cost of the Lifetime Roamio Pro. So my out of pocket cost was minimal.


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## Wiggum (Jun 11, 2004)

dmk1974 said:


> Well, a little after lunch I saw an additional pending charge on my CC for $772 in addition to the still pending $572. I promptly called TiVo support since the box was out for delivery this afternoon. The rep apologized and immediately requested UPS to return the shipment to them (which shows on the tracking now) and told me that they could ship me another box for $622 (the amount without the $50 discount code). I told him no since I was disappointed, I wouldn't be getting the box til sometime next week, and that it was their fault and not mine for this screw up. IMO, very poor on TiVo's part. If anything, they should have offered the 3-year warranty or something for free or honored the $572 price.
> 
> I even offered another option where I buy the TiVo from Best Buy or Amazon (the latter has the box for $350) and then get the Lifetime service for $199 (since that's what was showing in the breakdown on my checkout page), but he said that the box had to be bought from TiVo.
> 
> Oh well...I'll wait for Roamio 2 or some better promo. More peeved about the principle of it.


When I got home from work today, I still did not have the additional charge on my card although my invoice on Tivo did show the 922 or whatever it was. I decided to call them up and see what they would say. They said the only way was to recall the other one and reorder it. I was not going to get into a tiff about 50 dollars.

I'd rather have this for the 599 then not having it at all.


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## dcline414 (May 1, 2014)

Would be interesting to know what would have happened if someone used a prepaid/debit card with just enough funds for the original authorization (or a credit card with a low limit), which it seems would have successfully initiated the shipment.

Tivo wouldn't be able to charge you more, and you would already have the equipment to hold hostage if they tried to shut off service or say you owed more. I would think in that situation they would rather forfeit the $50 than tie up legal resources going to battle.

Plus in buying a prepaid card you can sometimes get perks (like 4x Kroger fuel points, store loyalty program rebates, etc.) that more than offset the activation cost. Perhaps a lesson learned if Tivo ever offers a similar deal on an OTA model...


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

Wiggum said:


> When I got home from work today, I still did not have the additional charge on my card although my invoice on Tivo did show the 922 or whatever it was. I decided to call them up and see what they would say. They said the only way was to recall the other one and reorder it. I was not going to get into a tiff about 50 dollars.
> 
> I'd rather have this for the 599 then not having it at all.


I might have caved and accepted the one that was to be delivered to me today if they adjusted the price and had me pay the $50 more at $622. But when they said it had to be recalled, then another one shipped out at the $622 total price (not allowing me to set it up this weekend which for once was somewhat free), I told them no thanks and if I want one at that price I'll call them back. Very poor customer service on their part.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

dmk1974 said:


> I might have caved and accepted the one that was to be delivered to me today if they adjusted the price and had me pay the $50 more at $622. But when they said it had to be recalled, then another one shipped out at the $622 total price (not allowing me to set it up this weekend which for once was somewhat free), I told them no thanks and if I want one at that price I'll call them back. Very poor customer service on their part.


You a got a CSR that didn't know much. Unfortunately fairly common amongst big corps to get different results with different csrs.


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## leswar (Apr 14, 2005)

I too ended up with the two different pending charges on my CC. 


Tivo marketed this as a 'summer sale' - showing a discounted Lifetime service only.
No code was indicated nor needed to get this deal.
The Roamio Plus was listed at its regular price of $399.
The webpage made it clear that it was the service that was being discounted.

In the check-out cart the $50-code reduced the price of the hardware only.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Imagine buying something 'on sale' at a Publix supermarket.
You hand the cashier a "manufacturer's $1 off-coupon", thinking
you'll be receiving an additional savings to the discounted sale price.
The cash register rings the sale price and applies the manufacturer's
coupon correctly. You witness this on the terminal. The CC pad also shows this correctly.

You slide your CC thinking you paid that amount. At some future time
you see the cc bill has changed to the higher non-sale amount.

Upon complaining to the supermarket people they inform you that use of the coupon
has nullified their sale price on the item. But why?
Well you can use only one coupon (code). But you only used one coupon (code).
The item was on sale. No code was needed to get that sale price.

Supermarket service desks are very good at fixing mistakes like this in 
the customer's favor.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newegg has sales and deals. Sometimes sales get futher discounted when a code is
applied during checkout. Newegg sends codes in emails. They also list the code on 
the item's webpage. The checkout lets you know if the code is valid. Occasionally 
you can use more than one code. It is immediate and finite.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tivo needs to fix this in the customer's favor immediately.
Good Luck to anyone who waits after 30 days to see if tivo credits them.
"30 day return rights are gone!. CSRs say a lot of things to resolve calls. 
It doesn't mean what they tell you is true or will happen.


Qs: My item has shipped. It will be here on Tuesday. If I REFUSE delivery by UPS,
will TiVo credit my account in full? Or subtract some big return shipping charge? 
What a waste.

Would it be cheaper to return it myself by USPS? They probably have something 
cheaper than UPS.

What is the return process? Can't find anything on tivo's website. Do I 
call first even if I am refusing it when the UPS guy comes? Do I need 
an RMA or print a shipping label?

Thanks


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

leswar said:


> Would it be cheaper to return it myself by USPS? They probably have something cheaper than UPS.


Highly unlikely.

I haven't shipped a Roamio but shipping prices for a TiVo HD on eBay are typically:

USPS priority $46
USPS parcel post $31
UPS ground $21
FedEx ground $21

Additionally, Tivo probably gets a discounted rate from UPS far lower than what we can get.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I called TiVo for the fourth time yesterday since "Jaron" never called me back.

They supposedly intercepted the higher priced unit on its way to me so it won't arrive. But the CSR wasn't totally convinced.

The second unit is supposedly still shipping.

All the pending authorizations on my CC came off, now I just have the two actual charges for the unit I want (without the $50 deal) and the one that they stopped shipment on.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

This has got to be causing the credit card companies a lot disputed charge action with TiVo. I'm surprised they don't pressure TiVo to cut it out.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

> Would it be cheaper to return it myself by USPS?


I don't know Tivo's policies. For UPS:

Refusing delivery, causes a "Return to Sender"... Nobody gets charged for this return trip.

The original shipping fee though, is already spent. A retailer will either eat it, or pass it on to the customer when conditions warrant. Whatever this fee is, it's cheaper than you would get unless you have a volume account.

Tivo has an interception agreement with their shipper, so if you tell Tivo, they can call it back faster. Otherwise UPS says to wait for the first attempt, so you'll have the infotag numbers to make new arrangements.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

leswar said:


> Qs: My item has shipped. It will be here on Tuesday. If I REFUSE delivery by UPS,
> will TiVo credit my account in full? Or subtract some big return shipping charge?
> What a waste.
> 
> ...


Call up Tivo. They can issue a return to sender request. They did it for me after package shipped and had crossed into KS from TX.

They won't charge you. They didn't charge me and I didn't have to argue about it or anything.

I just told them the story. $50 off code. Total price was $550 when I placed the order. HIgher price afterwards.

And then said, I want the Tivo still if you will honor the price otherwise I do not want it and want to cancel the order. They came back and said they will cancel it. I asked if the package would come to my door. She said no. I asked again just to make sure that I don't have to deal with that. She said no. IT will be taken care of. (They also gave me option of getting it for the sale price of $599 without code.)

Later I checked the tracking number and the package, despite already crossing a few state lines, was being called back home.


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## leswar (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks everybody. Really good information and advice. I feel better.
I called TiVo and cancelled. I was polite. I acted confused ( still am).
I told them that I used a 50 $ code.

Talked with a nice lady in CS. She put me on hold to check with the supervisor.
She came back with the info that we all know by now (must cancel and reorder).

Bottom line: TiVo can call back the item at any point before delivery with
no cancellation fees or return-shipping charges. That's a relief!

According to the csr my cc will be credited when the tivo gets back to the warehouse
- about 7 days. She gave me a case number and documented the sale price. 
If I want to wait to re-order til after my cc is credited I will still be eligible for the 
sale price, even if it has ended. Good to know.

I don't think I'm going to re-order. I probably shouldn't be spending the initial $575 or 
the increased $628. I've had a new unopened/unsubscribed Basic from Amazon sitting 
under my bed since Christmas (cost after points was $92.). I wanted OTA capability at the time.
So it's an actual 628 vs 400 virtual.


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

leswar said:


> Thanks everybody. Really good information and advice. I feel better.
> I called TiVo and cancelled. I was polite. I acted confused ( still am).
> I told them that I used a 50 $ code.
> 
> ...


100% agree with you regarding not re-ordering. I even spoke to a supervisor who had no ability to work outside the box to get me a TiVo this weekend to set up (as I intended to when I ordered on Wednesday) by allowing the $199 on the PLS if I were to get a box at Best Buy or something. All I can do is re-order at the $622 price. If anything, he should have offered free next day shipping, free extended warranty, or something. I feel like they don't give a crap and am really soured towards buying another TiVo product right now. I'll just keep using the Premiere 4's and Mini's which are good enough right now i guess.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

I just got this order correct, I paid the $599.98 for the Roamio Plus/Lifetime + sales tax and will be given a $50 credit back on my credit card in the next week or so, works for me but it did cost me an extra $3.00 in sales tax, I can live with that.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

How'd you get the $50 credit? From your CC company or from TiVo?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> How'd you get the $50 credit? From your CC company or from TiVo?


From TiVo as a credit on my Credit Card, if you use your credit card to back charge TiVo, TiVo could cut off your TiVo service (I have never heard of such a case but I would not take that chance) that why I don't every want to go the credit card back charge route with TiVo. I did have a copy of my screen shot showing the $50 off price and had to fax that to TiVo. The only difference is that TiVo is not going to credit me for the CT sales tax on the $50 credit, but I will eat that $3 without any problem.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Thanks for sharing. How'd you get TiVo to agree to that? I also have a screenshot saved.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> Thanks for sharing. How'd you get TiVo to agree to that? I also have a screenshot saved.


I called up TiVo and told the first CSR that it was not correct to show what was going to be charged on your order than charge some other price, the CSR did agree and did two things, canceled my first order, than xfered me to Jaron, he asked me to fax him the screen shot and gave me a case # and asked me to call back after a day or so had passed, I did and gave the first CSR my case number, that CSR said the way it was going to work is she would place the order for the $599.98 price, than issue me a $50 Credit card credit, the sales tax was on the full order, and the $50 credit will not have any sales tax taken off, hence my extra $3 cost.


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

lessd said:


> I called up TiVo and told the first CSR that it was not correct to show what was going to be charged on your order than charge some other price, the CSR did agree and did two things, canceled my first order, than xfered me to Jaron, he asked me to fax him the screen shot and gave me a case # and asked me to call back after a day or so had passed, I did and gave the first CSR my case number, that CSR said the way it was going to work is she would place the order for the $599.98 price, than issue me a $50 Credit card credit, the sales tax was on the full order, and the $50 credit will not have any sales tax taken off, hence my extra $3 cost.


Glad it worked out for you! The supervisor I spoke with (David) was just as useless as the initial CSR. Would not try for any resolution at all. I have a screen shot saved as well.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dmk1974 said:


> Glad it worked out for you! The supervisor I spoke with (David) was just as useless as the initial CSR. Would not try for any resolution at all. I have a screen shot saved as well.


Try again in a week day, not on a weekend, see if you can get Jaron


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I requested to speak to Jaron on Thursday and they said they couldn't transfer me but would pass along a message and he'd call back within 48 hours. So I'll give him till end of today, I guess.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> I requested to speak to Jaron on Thursday and they said they couldn't transfer me but would pass along a message and he'd call back within 48 hours. So I'll give him till end of today, I guess.


Maybe Jaron wants to stay out of this mess now, I was the first to get to him.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lessd said:


> Maybe Jaron wants to stay out of this mess now, I was the first to get to him.


Maybe Jaron has been transferred to another dept.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

trip1eX said:


> Maybe Jaron has been transferred to another dept.


I wonder if that would be the "Desk Cleanout" or the "I Quit" Dept...

I always somewhat feel sorry for the CSRs who actually help and/or get things done, only to be thanked by every TiVo owner on TCF, asking/demanding to speak to them. Even more so, if they took care of things by going off-script.


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## FROD (Jan 26, 2005)

Man, I feel for the guys who tried to double stack coupons on their website. I tried the same thing, but when I saw my "order history" come in at the higher price, I immediately called TiVO CSR. I tried to negotiate with the CSR. No dice. They flat out do not double stack discounts. Not happening. So instead of going through the hassle of a possible return, I just took the bigger discount. Very happy I did. Tivo Roamio is AWESOME. 

Had an issue with Charter and synching up the Cable Card to my box. In the end, it was an account issue at the "head end" where they had to tie the box to the Cable Card. Once that was done, all was good. I went through and deleted the channels that are not part of my package. Transferred my Season Pass from my S3 to my Roamio via Season Pass on the TiVo website. Slick! Also, transferred beloved recordings over my network to the new box. 

One last thing, TiVo Stream is awesome. Works like a charm. My son was running into a buffer issue, but I put his iPad on the faster 5Ghz network and he was fine. Also, able to watch my shows anywhere outside my house. Amazing. 

Really too bad about lack of support for Android. My Nexus 7 would have been awesome with this. Given that TiVo axed they hardware dev team, me thinks Apple might be snagging themselves a little TiVo action/acquisition.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

FROD said:


> Man, I feel for the guys who tried to double stack coupons on their website. I tried the same thing, but when I saw my "order history" come in at the higher price, I immediately called TiVO CSR. I tried to negotiate with the CSR. No dice. They flat out do not double stack discounts. Not happening. So instead of going through the hassle of a possible return, I just took the bigger discount. Very happy I did. Tivo Roamio is AWESOME.


*BUT* it is bad business practices (may even be illegal) to show the customer the checkout price before the customer hits the* place the order button*, than change the price afterwards.
Has anyone every had an sight do that to you? even a grocery store will honor the shelf price if less than what the register charge was.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

lessd said:


> *BUT* it is bad business practices (may even be illegal) to show the customer the checkout price before the customer hits the* place the order button*, than change the price afterwards.
> Has anyone every had an sight do that to you? even a grocery store will honor the shelf price if less than what the register charge was.


If there was a price mistake, a retailer can opt to cancel an order rather than honoring the mistaken price. It happens from time to time.

http://news.cnet.com/Amazon-wont-honor-pricing-mistake/2100-1017_3-993246.html


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## FROD (Jan 26, 2005)

lessd said:


> *BUT* it is bad business practices (may even be illegal) to show the customer the checkout price before the customer hits the* place the order button*, than change the price afterwards.
> Has anyone every had an sight do that to you? even a grocery store will honor the shelf price if less than what the register charge was.


Yeah, agreed. I would have been pretty pissed had I been charged the super high price when the checkout clearly allowed the discount. I called them on it. And also charging me sales tax when they don't have a brick and mortar in my state. I don't get that at all.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> If there was a price mistake, a retailer can opt to cancel an order rather than honoring the mistaken price. It happens from time to time.
> 
> http://news.cnet.com/Amazon-wont-honor-pricing-mistake/2100-1017_3-993246.html


That lot different 1) the error was over 90% off the normal price TiVo was less than 10% off the price 2) Amazon canceled the order on the customer, not the other way around. If you had just placed the order with TiVo and went away for a few days your order would have been shipped at the higher price, that not what Amazon did.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

FROD said:


> Man, I feel for the guys who tried to double stack coupons on their website. I tried the same thing, but when I saw my "order history" come in at the higher price, I immediately called TiVO CSR. I tried to negotiate with the CSR. No dice. They flat out do not double stack discounts. Not happening.


I don't see this as "double-stacking" if you are only entering the one coupon code (for $50 off) at check-out. See my posts here and here for how I was able to get to an end price of $550 for the Roamio Plus. Caveat: YMMV.


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## jaj2276 (Dec 25, 2007)

I knew my incorrectly priced Tivo package was going to arrive today so I called up Tivo to start the return process hoping that they would see the folly of their ways and give me the price *their* website showed I was going to get charged.

Today's CSR was the 5th person I've spoken to about this issue. She was fully aware of the issue and asked what could they do to make things right. I said they could honor their original price. She said the only thing that she could do was to credit me $150 (the website quoted me at $799, I got charged $999, they think I should pay $849, hence the $150 credit). 

She went on to say that the $150 credit could only be applied after August 16th. I asked why (I knew/know why) and she said because if I got the credit now and returned the Tivo within 30 days, I'd be "entitled" to a full refund of $999 (on top of the $150 credit if they gave it to me now). I seized upon this word and asked her why I wasn't "entitled" to the price of $799 which is what I and Tivo agreed to. She had no answer of course.

She also brought up (along with all the other CSRs I've spoken to) that the system wouldn't accept stacking coupons. I asked her to tell me how I stacked coupons. I only entered one coupon (the Tivo50 code). The price of the Roamio Plus w/ Lifetime required no "coupon" for me to enter to get that price.

After saying she couldn't do anything else, I said to go ahead and process the return. She then told me that I would have to pay for return shipping. I told her in no uncertain terms would I be paying for return shipping for Tivo's mistake. There was no movement from her so I told her that I'd refuse shipment and she had no further comment.

Again, the really annoying thing about this entire thing is that every CSR I spoke to tried to put the blame on *me* for this error. As if I applied two discount/coupon codes knowing full well that one of them shouldn't apply. I did no such thing as I entered *one* discount code.

They suck.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

lessd said:


> *BUT* it is bad business practices (may even be illegal) to show the customer the checkout price before the customer hits the* place the order button*, than change the price afterwards.


It absolutely is illegal. And I agree there was no double-stacking. I only used one promo code on the flash sale checkout page. If promo codes weren't acceptable then why even have an input box for it? Chiguy is proof that not all promo codes were off limits.

The CSR was nice enough, even though I could tell that her supervisor told her to try to push me to accept the original shipment for a $150 credit instead of the $200 credit that would have brought the price to what I agreed to. I didn't bite because I wouldn't have otherwise ordered it to begin with.

I don't want to elaborate because I'm currently awaiting a CC reversal of the full amount of the grossly overcharged (+35%) price, but I'm still considering filing formal complaints with some government agencies. If Tivo were to have some vulnerable customers who don't double-check things and/or don't have the capacity to speak up, they would be getting away with some $200-$300 overcharges. Tivo certainly wasn't proactive in any way to contact me about the situation or put a hold on the shipment. I had to contact them, and if I didn't they would have been more than happy to take an extra $200 if I didn't notice.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

series5orpremier said:


> It absolutely is illegal. And I agree there was no double-stacking. I only used one promo code on the flash sale checkout page. If promo codes weren't acceptable then why even have an input box for it? Chiguy is proof that not all promo codes were off limits.
> 
> The CSR was nice enough, even though I could tell that her supervisor told her to try to push me to accept the original shipment for a $150 credit instead of the $200 credit that would have brought the price to what I agreed to. I didn't bite because I wouldn't have otherwise ordered it to begin with.
> 
> I don't want to elaborate because I'm currently awaiting a CC reversal of the full amount of the grossly overcharged (+35%) price, but I'm still considering filing formal complaints with some government agencies. If Tivo were to have some vulnerable customers who don't double-check things and/or don't have the capacity to speak up, they would be getting away with some $200-$300 overcharges. Tivo certainly wasn't proactive in any way to contact me about the situation or put a hold on the shipment. I had to contact them, and if I didn't they would have been more than happy to take an extra $200 if I didn't notice.


The problem with the CC reversal is if you own any other TiVos with Lifetime service TiVo could cut off your Lifetime Service, the thing is a mess of TiVos own bad web design.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I think you misunderstood. I'm waiting for Tivo to credit the charge themselves (it had already gone through even though I never received/accepted shipment). 

I have no doubt they would cut off service on a disputed newly purchased box, but for them to mess with prepaid in full service on older boxes out of some vindictive retribution would be illegal as well.


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## Bytez (Sep 11, 2004)

Hopefully this makes it to the Consumerist site.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

series5orpremier said:


> I think you misunderstood. I'm waiting for Tivo to credit the charge themselves (it had already gone through even though I never received/accepted shipment).
> 
> I have no doubt they would cut off service on a disputed newly purchased box, but for them to mess with prepaid in full service on older boxes out of some vindictive retribution would be illegal as well.


I also am waiting for my $50 credit I was promised, the CSR said it would take up to 10 days, I am only on day 2.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I'm really glad I called them after I got my initial Confirmation Email which said $925. Now I'm only fighting for $50 instead of $300.

(of course TiVo said they cancelled that $925 order but they didn't so now I have the charge on my CC which I have to wait for them to remove, once the package gets sent back to them)

My $650 Roamio Plus is set to arrive today. I'm happy I did it (I will be selling a 2-tuner Premiere with lifetime + Stream) but I am still bitter about the whole thing and the hoops I've had to jump thru just to fix the mess they created by shipping me multiple units and charging me for even more. I've called TiVo 5 times, never got a call back from them, and have had to call UPS 3 times over the situation. And pay UPS $10 to change the delivery so I could ensure I could Refuse Shipment if I needed to.

When I called once the CSR ran thru her script and said, "Thanks for being a TiVo customer for... um, I can't see how long, it doesn't go back that far." Yea, because I've been with TiVo since 1999 and I've owned every model except the TiVoHD. I've convinced others to buy probably close to a dozen TiVo units over the years.

And yet they're going to act like I did something wrong, all to save themselves $50 because THEIR system was messed up.

It REALLY rubs me the wrong way. Their silence here in this thread (and never calling me back) speaks volumes.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

What's up with TiVo csr's misquoting the time you have been with them? They do that to me all the time, suggesting I have only been a customer for a year despite having a TiVo subscription since 2006?

If they can't get that right, what else are missing? It appears their csr skill level has gone downhill drastically the last couple of years.


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

I'm pretty fed up with TiVo over this. Not only did they not honor the $50 code (which was for the BOX, not the SERVICE which was $199 per the deal), but now my CC shows the $772 as a CHARGE (not pending) as of today. I still have a pending charge from them for $572 (which is what I paid at checkout) as well as some $1 charge pending from them.

The Roamio Plus that was shipped (and then they intercepted to return to sender only after I contacted them on Friday) looks like it should be received by them today. But this is just a big pain in the a$$ for them to tie up my credit card, not honor their mistake, or try in any way to make it right for the inconvenience. Really feel like they are giving me/us the bird and they don't care.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Let me get this straight...TiVo knocks $300 off the price of a Lifetime Roamio and you guys are outraged that they won't let you get an EXTRA $50 off?

I honestly just don't understand people sometimes.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Hardly, Diana!

I'm "outraged" because TiVo quoted me a price AFTER CHECKOUT of $598 and then actually planned to charge me $925!

Only after I called did they determine they could not give me a price of $598 and only could go as low as $650. IF I WOULDN'T HAVE CALLED THEY WOULD HAVE CHARGED MY CARD (which, actually, they did, even though the order was canceled less than a half hour after I ordered it)

I'm also outraged because they never did cancel the $925 order even though they told me they did TWICE. I paid to have it shipped to a local UPS store so I could refuse payment only THEN to have it re-routed back to them.

Not to mention my CC has the $925 charge on it (for a purchase I CANCELED with a CSR on the phone within a half hour of ordering) until they process the return.

And don't forget the FIVE pending charges that sat on my card for 2-3 days.

I've called TiVo FIVE TIMES and UPS THREE TIMES and spent time checking / worrying about incorrect (and expensive!) charges on my CC. That's time I could have spent on other things.

All because THEY screwed up and won't take ANY responsibility for it.


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> Let me get this straight...TiVo knocks $300 off the price of a Lifetime Roamio and you guys are outraged that they won't let you get an EXTRA $50 off?
> 
> I honestly just don't understand people sometimes.


Diana, cwoody222 has it nailed. If there was no additional promo code for the $50 off, then the order would have not been an issue. It's their handling of it that is the major problem. If it wasn't for some of us checking our order totals and seeing the additional charge (like I'm assuming many non-TiVoForums members will be seeing), it would have been even more of a hassle.

And what, you don't like to save an extra fifty bucks if a company has a promo that allows you to do so???


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

series5orpremier said:


> I think you misunderstood. I'm waiting for Tivo to credit the charge themselves (it had already gone through even though I never received/accepted shipment).
> 
> I have no doubt they would cut off service on a disputed newly purchased box, but for them to mess with prepaid in full service on older boxes out of some vindictive retribution would be illegal as well.


It's in their TOS, which you agreed to every time you purchased service for any TiVo. They can, and have, turned off lifetime service on boxes already in-service, due to CC chargebacks, and/or other things they consider violating the TOS.

Before anybody gets all legalese on me, TiVo updated their TOS around the release of the Roamio, which affected all accounts and all TiVos with service on them, taking away the right to sue and do class-action lawsuits, unless you opted-out of the change. TiVo notified me of this by email and via a pop-up message on the Premieres I owned right before I bought Roamios. The change made arbitration the only recourse, and only on TiVo's terms.

Of course, the link provided via both forms of notifications, was a broken link. By the time I dug through their website enough to find the opt-out method, I found it had to be by certified mail (with signature and return receipt), written in a specific way (no form provided), notarized, and had a time limit. If they had posted a valid link, I could have made the deadline. Since they did not, and I had to dig for it, I agreed to the new terms, on all products on my account, by not opting-out. Now I can only arbitrate conflicts on TiVo's terms.

TiVo pulls this BS regularly, saying you can opt-out, but making it so difficult to do so. There's either no time to meet the deadline, or you just don't have the time to even get past all the obstacles.

There once was a guy who violated his NDA for a TiVo Beta. That violated the additional TOS (which also violated the base TOS), and resulted in loss of all TiVo service, with TiVo saying "You got off lucky". I can't prove this, cite sources, or say how I am aware of it. It shouldn't have been disclosed to me. I just happened to be in a position to be talking to somebody who had loose lips, and was an actual TiVo employee, not a contracted CSR-type person.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

dmk1974 said:


> And what, you don't like to save an extra fifty bucks if a company has a promo that allows you to do so???


Agreed. If the codes shouldn't work, the cart shouldn't allow them to entered. Only having a note on the first page is a poor way to enforce not allowing them...


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

No matter how anybody tries to put a spin on it, this was TiVo's fault, not the customer.

1. The promo code shouldn't have been accepted in the first place.
2. Adding a line, after the fact, that entering a code on the next page, for a no-code deal would invalidate the no-code deal is proof their system is broken, and they don't have anybody smart enough to fix it, or the code would just be rejected. This is TiVo's problem, not the customer.
3. TiVo likely has the right to just cancel with full refund. But, there should not be any cost to the customer (not even shipping).
4. Your rights vary by the state you live in. One size does not fit all.
5. Just because TiVo's TOS say you agree to their terms, and you agree (even if "agree" means not disagreeing), does not invalidate any rights your states adds by inclusions/exclusions. Brush up on your jurisdictional law.
6. Arguing law, which varies by state, is never going to get anywhere, except to an insanely long thread of debating.

I'm sure all the bickering and law interpretation will go on until the deal ends, and all outstanding issues are resolved. I'm only chiming-in, and don't intend on defending the contents of this post, which I'm sure will be picked apart and attacked bit by bit.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

So I see this offer is still available. So they still haven't sold 2000 units yet?


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

The difference in $50 would have made me purchase one as the offer was advertised as $199 off lifetime service not the hardware. I have been waiting to see how this played out and I'm truely disappointed that TiVo isn't making good on the offer they advertised.

What is more disappointing is they are not offering any discounts for existing customers to purchase lifetime unless you purchased a new Plus or Pro in the last 30 days (i called to see if there was any ).


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

jwbelcher said:


> Agreed. If the codes shouldn't work, the cart shouldn't allow them to entered. Only having a note on the first page is a poor way to enforce not allowing them...


And to add, that note was not on the order page last Wednesday 7/16. The note only started to show on the order page on Thursday or Friday after they realized there was an error with their system.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

cwoody222 said:


> Their silence here in this thread (and never calling me back) speaks volumes.


I thought these boards were not monitored by Tivo. Or is there another reason they would know about this thread?


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## dalabera (Jan 10, 2013)

I called and settled for a credit of $250 on my CC. For those wanting to take this to court and public agency go for it... I don't have the time to deal with it...


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## jaj2276 (Dec 25, 2007)

Another irritating thing about this whole affair is that Tivo claims that two coupons/discount codes were "stacked." Ok, so why did their system "choose" the one that advantaged them and disadvantaged the customer? 

If my receipt had showed a $50 difference (keeping the summer pricing, discarding the Tivo50), I would have complained but likely kept the units. The fact they kept the Tivo50 promo code and discarded the summer pricing "discount code" (which was not a coupon/discount code but that's beating a dead horse with Tivo) really annoyed me and caused me to refuse shipment and do a CC chargeback. I will call Tivo tonight to let them know the unit is on its way back (since there's no RMA # attached to the package and/or order).

I am going to go apoplectic if Tivo stops service to my existing Tivos (one lifetime'd, the other is on monthly plan).


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

jwbelcher said:


> Agreed. If the codes shouldn't work, the cart shouldn't allow them to entered. Only having a note on the first page is a poor way to enforce not allowing them...


Plus, that note wasn't there when I ordered.

Instead of fixing the underlying problem, they just added text which put the onus on the customer.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

telemark said:


> I thought these boards were not monitored by Tivo. Or is there another reason they would know about this thread?


They semi-officially monitor and speak to issues from time to time.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> So I see this offer is still available. So they still haven't sold 2000 units yet?


But, wait! There's more! Order before the (mythical limit of) 2000 units are sold, and get a free plush TiVo doll, for just an additional processing and handling fee (full price, plus shipping)!

TiVo's just insulating themselves by being able to terminate the offer before July 31st, claiming the 2000 sold.

Honestly, I thought about the odds of any TiVo (direct from TiVo) promo selling 2000 units in that short of a time period, advertised only on their website (I didn't get an email about it). I could have easily never known the offer was ever available, if it had not been posted here. That said, without forums, July 31st could have came and gone, and they might have never sold 2000 total.

Speaking of total, I don't see anything specifically stating 2000 combined, or 2000 of each. The 2000 total is mostly implied.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> Let me get this straight...TiVo knocks $300 off the price of a Lifetime Roamio and you guys are outraged that they won't let you get an EXTRA $50 off?
> 
> I honestly just don't understand people sometimes.


It is not the $50 per say it is that the checkout screen gave you a price (inc sales tax if any) before you hit the button *place the order*, at that point the price should not change 1 cent, someone said a Ipad/pod wherever was incorrectly priced at $12 on another sight, the order was canceled before the item was shipped, the price was not changed on your credit card, just zero out. Canceling an incorrect order before shipment and permanent charge on your credit is one thing, but sending out the order and charging your CC $150 or so more then the checkout price is quite another thing.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

telemark said:


> I thought these boards were not monitored by Tivo. Or is there another reason they would know about this thread?


Often, TCF members will direct TiVo's attention to TCF threads and/or posts, when desperately trying to get their way, or when trying to get the same deal somebody posted about getting, here.

Some members are of the mindset that TiVo has people on payroll monitoring this forum (in stealth-mode).

TiVo barely monitors their own forums. There was (and remains) an announcement here that states TiVo is now monitoring the forum (their own forum, when looked at closely). Others think just because TiVoMargret is sometimes active on here, she sees everything. I can't even keep up with what I want to keep up with on here.

I was originally appalled at the concept that every issue, bug, problem, and gripe posted here, needed to also be posted to TiVo directly, and that I had to use twitter to get news and updates. It really would be better if TiVo truly did have a section here, where posts would be seen by a TiVo rep. For now, the best threads to post in are ones started by TiVoMargret. Those who start threads can get email notifications about new posts to the thread, making it more likely she knows about thread activity, when she is the OP.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

cwoody222 said:


> They semi-officially monitor and speak to issues from time to time.


Calling it (any)-officially is a stretch. TiVoMargret, being the awesome person she is, *chooses to* go above and beyond her official title and duties, and try to address matters here. If history repeats itself, she'll get tired of the abuse directed at her, like TiVo employees of the past who *chose to* participate here, and it would be a great loss, likely the biggest loss ever.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> likely the biggest loss ever.


+1


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

nooneuknow said:


> But, wait! There's more! Order before the (mythical limit of) 2000 units are sold, and get a free plush TiVo doll, for just an additional processing and handling fee (full price, plus shipping)!
> 
> TiVo's just insulating themselves by being able to terminate the offer before July 31st, claiming the 2000 sold.
> 
> ...


Really a Tivo plush doll? why didn't they do that the first time? Those are hard to get (Given how slow the Tivo website is....).

Let me guess, you have to enter the coupon code "GetDollFree" to get the doll but of course that invalidates the discounted lifetime fee to full price that doesn't show up when you place the order, only after the credit card is finally charged......


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Apparently you can buy 99 of each, if you wanted to (and the cart page still gives a spot to enter a promo code, which I have not tried).

Copy + Paste from TiVo's website, after using https://www.tivo.com/shop/promo/summer-savings?SSAID=101512&SSAID=101512 once for each model, then adjusting quantity from cart:

Checkout

TiVo Roamio Plus
Product Lifetime service $199.99
EditLimited warranty Included

HDMI and Ethernet cables not included.
Remove
Qty 99 
$399.99

TiVo Roamio Pro
Product Lifetime service $199.99
EditLimited warranty Included

HDMI and Ethernet cables not included.
Remove
Qty 99
$599.99

*Enter promo code*

Subtotal (198 items):$138,596.04

Estimate tax & shipping

Shipping FREE
Standard Shipping

Tax(details):$8,019.00
TOTAL:$146,615.04

Checkout


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

nooneuknow said:


> Apparently you can buy 99 of each, if you wanted to (and the cart page still gives a spot to enter a promo code, which I have not tried).
> 
> Copy + Paste from TiVo's website, after using https://www.tivo.com/shop/promo/summer-savings?SSAID=101512&SSAID=101512 once for each model, then adjusting quantity from cart:
> 
> ...


I tried that, it split the order and showed two seperate models (but the same one with the quanity of 99 split betwen the two. You can actually order more than 99 that way....

And yes, if you enter the Tivo50 code, it takes the other "code??" away an deducts $50 per each one.

So if Tivo50 is the code for $50 off, what's the code for $300 off lifetime service? PLRS just takes $100 off.

Were is this code Tivo speaks of but doesn't show?


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

lessd said:


> It is not the $50 per say it is that the checkout screen gave you a price (inc sales tax if any) before you hit the button *place the order*, at that point the price should not change 1 cent, someone said a Ipad/pod wherever was incorrectly priced at $12 on another sight, the order was canceled before the item was shipped, the price was not changed on your credit card, just zero out. Canceling an incorrect order before shipment and permanent charge on your credit is one thing, but sending out the order and charging your CC $150 or so more then the checkout price is quite another thing.


Sure, I get that, and people have a right to be upset with that part of the saga, but a number of posts have been about people trying to find other ways to get an extra $50 off, and people being outraged that TiVo won't give them the extra $50 off, after acknowledgement from TiVo that it was an error to accept the code.

I honestly don't know how anyone found this page to begin with, since I have found no way to navigate to it from anywhere else on the website. As a web master I have often had pages on a website with no inbound links while I test it in the real world. I don't know if that was part of what happened here, but it may be a possibility.

Sure, running a charge different than the "order completed" confirmation page is a no-no. TiVo has fixed that, and has attempted to recall shipments where possible. But the bottom line is the deal is $300 off the price of a Roamio Pro or Plus. Period. TiVo doesn't want to sell them at $350 off. No addition offers or discounts apply.

Again, people have right to be angry about being charged a price different than was quoted on the order. But a lot of the outrage in this thread is not just about the charge being different, but also about TiVo not honoring the extra $50 off. IMO, that is just childish.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

eboydog said:


> I tried that, it split the order and showed two seperate models (but the same one with the quanity of 99 split betwen the two. You can actually order more than 99 that way....
> And yes, if you enter the Tivo50 code, it takes the other "code??" away an deducts $50 per each one.
> So if Tivo50 is the code for $50 off, what's the code for $300 off lifetime service? PLRS just takes $100 off.
> Were is this code Tivo speaks of but doesn't show?


The $199 lifetime service is already there, with the price for both models. 99 Plus & 99 Pro in my cart, without using any codes. I read a member was offered $50 off for finishing checkout, and wanted to see if I could get the same email. Then, I was curious how large of a quantity could be ordered, and just got silly.

I'm waiting to see if I get this alleged "if you finish your checkout" email, to see if any code is required for it, or if it will knock it off just by revisiting the cart after the email (if I get that email). I imagine it's $50 off the cart, not per item.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Diana Collins said:


> I honestly don't know how anyone found this page to begin with, since I have found no way to navigate to it from anywhere else on the website. As a web master I have often had pages on a website with no inbound links while I test it in the real world. I don't know if that was part of what happened here, but it may be a possibility


Ask the member that posted the page. IIRC, they got an email about the deal, which is how they got the link. I did not get that email, but can use the url.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Diana Collins said:


> I honestly don't know how anyone found this page to begin with, since I have found no way to navigate to it from anywhere else on the website. As a web master I have often had pages on a website with no inbound links while I test it in the real world. I don't know if that was part of what happened here, but it may be a possibility.


I got an email last Wed. Coincidentally I got it AGAIN today.

I've also been seeing it a LOT while surfing other sites (tailored to me, based on TiVo-related web history, no doubt) this past week.

It's also been published on at least 1 tech/TV blog I frequent.

It wasn't AT ALL not meant to be a published page... Not at all.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

So for those who tried to use the $50 off code....
was this message on the order page when you placed the order?


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

andyw715 said:


> So for those who tried to use the $50 off code....
> was this message on the order page when you placed the order?


Nope. Order placed around noon EST Thursday last week.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> Sure, I get that, and people have a right to be upset with that part of the saga, but a number of posts have been about people trying to find other ways to get an extra $50 off, and people being outraged that TiVo won't give them the extra $50 off, after acknowledgement from TiVo that it was an error to accept the code.
> 
> I honestly don't know how anyone found this page to begin with, since I have found no way to navigate to it from anywhere else on the website. As a web master I have often had pages on a website with no inbound links while I test it in the real world. I don't know if that was part of what happened here, but it may be a possibility.
> 
> ...


When I got the charge changed I call TiVo and the order was canceled, I asked for the original order and the $50 discount, no harm in asking as I did not threaten TiVo if I would not get the extra $50, some higher up fix the problem for me by giving me a $50 cr on my credit card after the order was replaced without the extra $50, for me simple, moral, and not childish .


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## jaj2276 (Dec 25, 2007)

Diana Collins said:


> Sure, I get that, and people have a right to be upset with that part of the saga, but a number of posts have been about people trying to find other ways to get an extra $50 off, and people being outraged that TiVo won't give them the extra $50 off, after acknowledgement from TiVo that it was an error to accept the code.


I'm pretty sure with this paragraph (especially since your first post on this thread was early on) that you are misrepresenting most of these posts. There are not "a number" of posts mad about not being able to somehow get an additional $50 off. A number of posts are discussing Tivo's poor customer service.



Diana Collins said:


> I honestly don't know how anyone found this page to begin with, since I have found no way to navigate to it from anywhere else on the website. As a web master I have often had pages on a website with no inbound links while I test it in the real world. I don't know if that was part of what happened here, but it may be a possibility.


The web page was initially posted on SlickDeals at least (that's how I got to it). I'm not sure how that's relevant to this discussion.



Diana Collins said:


> Sure, running a charge different than the "order completed" confirmation page is a no-no. TiVo has fixed that, and has attempted to recall shipments where possible. But the bottom line is the deal is $300 off the price of a Roamio Pro or Plus. Period. TiVo doesn't want to sell them at $350 off. No addition offers or discounts apply.


If you agree with your first sentence, then why are you posting? All of the complaints are from people who ordered BEFORE Tivo "fixed" the issue. The deal was $200 off lifetime service with a regular priced Roamio box. There was no code/coupon needed to get that deal. The Tivo50 code/coupon was asked for by Tivo's website (they had a section for it) and accepted it (i.e. the web page UPDATED once you applied the coupon showing you the discount).

Anyone else discussing other ways to get $50 off aren't complaining that they can't get it, they're discussing ways to see if they can get it (which some can so obviously Tivo still allows it in some cases!).



Diana Collins said:


> Again, people have right to be angry about being charged a price different than was quoted on the order. But a lot of the outrage in this thread is not just about the charge being different, but also about TiVo not honoring the extra $50 off. IMO, that is just childish.


And again, you are misrepresenting this thread. "A lot" of the outrage is about Tivo providing a product at a price (no coupon needed), allowing a coupon to be applied, informing you of the final price X, allowing you to place your order at price X and then charging your credit card Y.

Once it's discovered BY THE CUSTOMER (again, not by Tivo), Tivo claims that it's the customer's fault for this mess and has chosen (and charged) Y as the price when in fact the "correct" price (if the Tivo50 code had not been applied at checkout) is actually Z. Tivo has either 1) no way or 2) no will to adjust the charge from Y to Z in any practical manner.

Furthermore, Tivo had the ability to choose Y to be either Y1 or Y2. Y1 is this summer deal. Y2 is the non-summer deal with the Tivo50 code applied. Y1 < Y2. Guess which one they chose for Y? Yep, Y2.

The customer(s) have been given several options (after going through many CSRs) on how to get from Y to Z. Some have been told to ship back the original shipment and they'll get sent a new shipment. Some have been able to get an immediate credit. Some have been told that they'll need to wait for 30 days to get the credit. The fact that there's not a standard policy is absurd.

See, no where in these four paragraphs did I mention $50.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

nooneuknow said:


> I read a member was offered $50 off for finishing checkout, and wanted to see if I could get the same email. Then, I was curious how large of a quantity could be ordered, and just got silly.
> 
> I'm waiting to see if I get this alleged "if you finish your checkout" email, to see if any code is required for it, or if it will knock it off just by revisiting the cart after the email (if I get that email). I imagine it's $50 off the cart, not per item.





nooneuknow said:


> Ask the member that posted the page. IIRC, they got an email about the deal, which is how they got the link. I did not get that email, but can use the url.


The e-mailed offer (subj: "You left items in your TiVo cart. Buy now and save $50!") was for $50 off the order (not per item) for completing check-out. And it required entry of a unique promo code. Since the offer was directed specifically and exclusively to me, I cannot share it and--even if I did--I'm fairly certain it would not work for anyone else.

BTW, this part of the offer in particular caught my eye: "Return to your cart and complete your order *by January 31, 2015* and you'll save $50 on a new TiVo Roamio." The procrastinator in me loves this!


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

To bring things full circle, I did get my $650 Roamio Plus yesterday and set it up. So at least there's that bit of a mostly-happy ending.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

The cluster that this is continues.

Just today (a full week after the order arrived on my doorstep) I got the email from TiVo saying my other unit had arrived back to them. So my credit could be 7-10 days from now... HOWEVER, it only shows the amount of the hardware (not the Lifetime Service).

So I had to call them AGAIN to verify I was getting the other $600 (after tax) back too.

They said now that the hardware is back, the Service plan credit would be processed now too. Service was cancelled on the 18th but will just start to be processed now, on the 29th.

Nice.

Hope they enjoyed having my $1000 for these 3-4 weeks. Especially since this was THEIR fault.

I seriously will consider buying anything from them directly in the future. They are clearly not ready for prime time for e-commerce.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

cwoody222 said:


> The cluster that this is continues.
> 
> Just today (a full week after the order arrived on my doorstep) I got the email from TiVo saying my other unit had arrived back to them. So my credit could be 7-10 days from now... HOWEVER, it only shows the amount of the hardware (not the Lifetime Service).
> 
> ...


This kind of BS is exactly the reason I stopped buying directly from TiVo.

I went through a similar chain of events with defective Premieres, during their early adopter discount promo. They kept sending defective replacements until my credit was maxed-out, then stuck me with return shipping on the final unit, because I couldn't/wouldn't let them charge full-retail to my card for yet another replacement...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> The cluster that this is continues.
> 
> Just today (a full week after the order arrived on my doorstep) I got the email from TiVo saying my other unit had arrived back to them. So my credit could be 7-10 days from now... HOWEVER, it only shows the amount of the hardware (not the Lifetime Service).
> 
> ...


I made the same call for the same reason. I had to make sure they weren't forgetting about crediting lifetime back to me.

But it was a quick call and the CSR said both lifetime/hardware are being credited. .... and the entire amt was credited back to my cc in one lump sum.

Tivo's computer systems are like their apps. A bit behind the times. A bit old school. A bit ancient.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

jaj2276 said:


> ...If you agree with your first sentence, then why are you posting?...


I ask myself that question a lot around here.


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## dmk1974 (Mar 7, 2002)

For my f'd up order, I finally today (14 days later) got the credit back onto my credit card. Interesting that it still shows a pending charge from 7/16 for the $572 that the price should have been.

Complete hassle and waste of time...thanks for nothing TiVo!


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## jaj2276 (Dec 25, 2007)

Diana Collins said:


> I ask myself that question a lot around here.


Ha, good answer!


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

With all due respect, TiVo offered a rathered a good discount for lifetime service when purchasing a Roamio, the Tivo50 coupon code was a different discount which many attempted to take advantage of, which was not successful.

Yes , considering the what I myself would consider a minor amount of $50, TiVo should have allowed the additional discount up to the point they discovered their mistake but I fail to understand the criticism of TiVo when it's their prerogative to accept or reject the terms of sale of their product. Ok, so you tried to take advantage of technical glitch in purchasing something and for some it wasn't successful, that's the chance you took when attempting to receive the maximum discount.

Yes, TiVo for the sake of customer satisfaction could have handled it better but the the orginal offer, by their standard price structure still remains to be a good offer. This isn't far off from those rare online sales glitches were.a.computer error sells a $1,000 dollar item for $100 and people become angry that the wrong, excessively low price isn't honored.

Is it wrong to assume most who tried this, didn't know anything about the Tivo50 code until they read it here? You attempted to receive a discount that the TiVo never intended and it didn't work. I'm not trying to take up for TiVo as I already stated, they could have handled this better but is it really their fault that those who attempted to take advantage of this online offer error failed so aren't consequences partially yours?


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## dalabera (Jan 10, 2013)

eboydog said:


> Yes, TiVo for the sake of customer satisfaction could have handled it better but the the orginal offer, by their standard price structure still remains to be a good offer. This isn't far off from those rare online sales glitches were.a.computer error sells a $1,000 dollar item for $100 and people become angry that the wrong, excessively low price isn't honored.


Agree! They should send a slider remote to those affected!


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## dalabera (Jan 10, 2013)

dmk1974 said:


> For my f'd up order, I finally today (14 days later) got the credit back onto my credit card. Interesting that it still shows a pending charge from 7/16 for the $572 that the price should have been.
> 
> Complete hassle and waste of time...thanks for nothing TiVo!


I needed to call my Credit Card to remove the pending charge and they asked to conference in a TIVO CSR. Weird enough TiVo did not have a record of that transaction....


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

eboydog said:


> With all due respect, TiVo offered a rathered a good discount for lifetime service when purchasing a Roamio, the Tivo50 coupon code was a different discount which many attempted to take advantage of, which was not successful.
> 
> Yes , considering the what I myself would consider a minor amount of $50, TiVo should have allowed the additional discount up to the point they discovered their mistake but I fail to understand the criticism of TiVo when it's their prerogative to accept or reject the terms of sale of their product. Ok, so you tried to take advantage of technical glitch in purchasing something and for some it wasn't successful, that's the chance you took when attempting to receive the maximum discount.
> 
> ...


Not at all.

I did not try to "take advantage of a technical glitch". I was debating taking advantage of the original deal and then learned about the TiVo50 discount here.

It wasn't presented as "hey, see if you can get away with this too!" it was just another deal that was out there.

That pushed my decision over the edge to buy. I clicked the link for the summer deal TiVo sent me in an email, entered the code in the field they offered and the price read $550. I clicked "Buy".

Got my email confirmation and my price read $925.

This is where I learned about the code. I ordered 1-2 hours after that was posted, right when I had read it.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10176275#post10176275


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## spherular (Jan 16, 2014)

Looks like this sold out...

The original link

https://www.tivo.com/shop/promo/summer-savings

now redirects to

https://www.tivo.com/offer-expired-limited-stock


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

I don't think its taking advantage.

Prior to many, if not most, online buying transactions I will stop by retailmenot and see if there are any codes...

If I searched for Tivo coupon codes and this tread came up I would try to use the code.
If after I entered the code and the website said everything was AOK, but then my CC hold was charged some other amount and Tivo CSR didn't acknowledge their mistake, I probably would be pissed as well.

But, if that screen grab I posted (a few posts above) presented itself while ordering then I would realize that the code would not be valid with the promotion.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

eboydog said:


> With all due respect, TiVo offered a rathered a good discount for lifetime service when purchasing a Roamio, the Tivo50 coupon code was a different discount which many attempted to take advantage of, which was not successful.
> 
> Yes , considering the what I myself would consider a minor amount of $50, TiVo should have allowed the additional discount up to the point they discovered their mistake but I fail to understand the criticism of TiVo when it's their prerogative to accept or reject the terms of sale of their product. Ok, so you tried to take advantage of technical glitch in purchasing something and for some it wasn't successful, that's the chance you took when attempting to receive the maximum discount.
> 
> ...


The problem was simple, just before you press the button *"Place this order"* you have the price your going to pay (or should have) inc any tax and or shipping. Outside of an illegal hacking of the vender's web sight, that is the exact price one should be paying, if the system is incorrect the vendor (in this case TiVo) should cancel the order automatically, and as a curtsey, an E-Mail sent out telling the customer what happened. The customer has no obligation to keep checking that the order placed is what the vender is going to ship and the price the vendor is going to charge does match the customers expectations. I have stacked money off with say Newegg, sometimes it is OK other times the discount will not work, that the correct way to be handling this problem.


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## naich (Mar 29, 2010)

using a coupon code is not taking advantage of anyone. Changing the price after you pay is deceptive and frankly illegal. TiVO did not handle this well at all.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

spherular said:


> Looks like this sold out...
> 
> The original link
> 
> ...


You just *now* noticed that? Actually, I was surprised nobody else posted it was over. Too bad we'll never know how many were sold, in truth, not the "buy before all 2000 are gone" 2000 implied...


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

Interesting story, this guy that got TiVo to accept his $50 "left in cart" code. Seems reporting it with consumerist might have helped getting it.

http://consumerist.com/2014/07/31/t...serves-right-to-remove-discounts-after-order/


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

andyw715 said:


> So for those who tried to use the $50 off code....
> was this message on the order page when you placed the order?


The link the email took you straight to looks exactly like the screen grabs on the consumerist.com story. No mention of anything that would make you think you were getting less than what the email promised, which was another $50 off the combo promo.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

curiousgeorge said:


> The link the email took you straight to looks exactly like the screen grabs on the consumerist.com story. No mention of anything that would make you think you were getting less than what the email promised, which was another $50 off the combo promo.


I don't think TiVo had understood their own web site problems, the sight was not working the way anybody would have expected it to. I have never had this type problem with other sights.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It's site, there's no vision going on here (certainly not in Tivo's case at least).


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