# HBO's Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison Of Belief



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Parts of this expose of Scientology's practices and abuses are mind boggling. High executives were exiled to "The Hole", basically a prison for months and years. Mothers were separated from the babies because the babies were annoyances. Physical abuse. Mental abuse. Dirty tricks on people who tried to raise the alarm about the inner goings on of Scientology.

There was one scene that described a literal game of musical chairs. Exiled members in The Hole were forced to play musical chairs where the person who "lost" would be kicked out of Scientology and everybody beat the crap out of each other so he or she wouldn't lose.

I can understand people using various methods of self help to improve themselves and to remain on the straight and narrow but at some point you have to realize your belief system is wrong and damaging. It's strange to me that whole families of parents, children and grand parents turn their backs on members who simply question Scientology. Every religion should have a come when you want and leave when you want with no repercussions philosophy.

Scientology seems to be a California thing. I don't know if it has any presence around here. Certainly not a big presence. I first started hearing about it about 20 years ago because one of my favorite jazz pianists, Chick Corea was a proponent of Scientology and there were occasional dust ups because of its cult-like status when he'd perform over seas.

One thing that may just be a coincidence but then again... The Church Of Scientology was virulently against this documentary and the day after it was broadcast on HBO, hbo.com isn't available. The website is up but it just resolves to a black page.

Here's Scientology's rebuttal to the HBO documentary: http://www.freedommag.org/hbo/ As described in the documentary, these guys don't mess around, they attack.


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## jamesl (Jul 12, 2012)

its up 
it just takes a long time to load 

the whole page is one big flash file


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Scientology seems to be a California thing. I don't know if it has any presence around here.


They used to have a really annoying presence here. Back in the early 80s, they used to hang out to proselytize in front of a newsstand/bookstore where I worked. They gave up after a few weeks because certain employees (cough) came up with creative ways to disrupt their activities. But they just moved to another corner.

I have no idea if they still do that. But they have a pretty spectacular "church" in St Paul (they took over the old Science Museum, when the museum got a new building).


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I haven't watched yet, but isn't there a large location in Clearwater, FL?


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

I thought it was pretty good. Definitely interesting.

From the link in the OP, I found this video which attempts to discredit Mike Rinder, one of the people interviewed in the documentary. I have no idea how credible he is, but the over-the-top style of this video is kind of amusing:

http://www.freedommag.org/hbo/videos/mike-rinder.html


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

We watched and all I can say is I cannot look at Cruise the same way again. I mean I know he's a little weird, but this exposes him to a whole new level. I'm just disappointed the Katie Holmes part was not mentioned. Was also hoping to learn more about Leah Remini's departure.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

I was also waiting for something about Katie Holmes. I didn't think of Leah Remini. Both of their stories could have been interesting.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

I remember seeing the Dianetics book here in Chicago in the late 60's or early 70's. I thought it was a diet book.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> Was also hoping to learn more about Leah Remini's departure.


I heard it was because she fat.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> There was one scene that described a literal game of musical chairs. Exiled members in The Hole were forced to play musical chairs where the person who "lost" would be kicked out of Scientology and everybody beat the crap out of each other so he or she wouldn't lose.
> ...
> Scientology seems to be a California thing.


did you even watch the show you're posting about?

1) While they "played" musical chairs, he didn't actually kick them out.. (Yes, that was just another ploy for people to feel grateful for him.)

2) The documentary itself showed them buying TONS of land an ALREADY having tons of "churches" all throughout the world.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> I haven't watched yet, but isn't there a large location in Clearwater, FL?


<sigh> Yes. I believe it's their "spiritual headquarters". My brother lives very close to it, so I've seen it many times while visiting him.

There may indeed be one advantage to the icecaps melting and the oceans rising.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

mattack said:


> did you even watch the show you're posting about?
> 
> 1) While they "played" musical chairs, he didn't actually kick them out.. (Yes, that was just another ploy for people to feel grateful for him.)
> 
> 2) The documentary itself showed them buying TONS of land an ALREADY having tons of "churches" all throughout the world.


I'll admit to watching it around 1 am but I don't see what your problem is with my musical chairs quote. These were people in The Hole who were fighting to remain in The Hole. I just didn't add the part that it was a farce because he didn't kick anyone out. Also, although they own tons of real estate world wide, I've never, ever, ever heard any references to Scientology outside of California and celebrities.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I'll admit to watching it around 1 am but I don't see what your problem is with my musical chairs quote. These were people in The Hole who were fighting to remain in The Hole. I just didn't add the part that it was a farce because he didn't kick anyone out.


Well, you did specifically say that the person who lost would be kicked out...


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Back in the early 80s, they used to hang out in front of a newsstand/bookstore where I worked to proselytize.


I had to read that a few times.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

turtleboy said:


> i had to read that a few times.




(Text added to make the smiley work)


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, you did specifically say that the person who lost would be kicked out...


And that was the premise of the musical chairs "game". The loser would be kicked out of prison, back into the real world, but they all fought to remain in prison. That Miscavige didn't kick anyone out after all seems not as important to me. Yes, it was part of the mind game but the fact that these people fought each other to remain in prison conditions seemed like the bigger story. To me, at least.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

The striking thing to me was the comment early on by (I think) it was his ex wife where LRH was supposed to have said, (paraphrasing), the easiest way to make money was to have a religion. I think it's one of the reasons why they fought so hard for tax-exempt status and blackmailed the IRS into giving it to them. Then sucker a bunch of rich folk to donate and now the church is worth billions.

But this kind of made me think, and I'll preface this by saying I'm an agnostic. What if something like the Catholic Church was new (I chose that because it is HIGHLY organized in a way that Scientology is) today and we know nothing of God and Jesus. Think about how crazy some of the ideas of the RC church would sound? And think back about how they used to use similar tactics to get people to blindly follow and how if you didn't they'd excommunicate you. So new religion = cult, but old religion = non cult? I guess it depends on how you define cult.

OK, discuss. I'm sure I'll get berated pretty badly now.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

This week's episode of the Liar City podcast is all about Scientology.

Liar City is one of my favorite podcasts. They go way back in the history of each story they tell, not just one event that everyone knows about.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

There's a story widely told, but possibly apocryphal, that Scientology started as a bet between LRH and another science fiction writer (usually Heinlein, but sometimes Asimov)...


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> The striking thing to me was the comment early on by (I think) it was his ex wife where LRH was supposed to have said, (paraphrasing), the easiest way to make money was to have a religion. I think it's one of the reasons why they fought so hard for tax-exempt status and blackmailed the IRS into giving it to them. Then sucker a bunch of rich folk to donate and now the church is worth billions.
> 
> .


Somewhere in his 3 volume autobiography, Isaac Asimov said the same thing. 
Hubbard brought it up in conversation long before he started Scientology, when they were both writing for the pulp science fiction magazines.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Honora said:


> Somewhere in his 3 volume autobiography, Isaac Asimov said the same thing.
> Hubbard brought it up in conversation long before he started Scientology, when they were both writing for the pulp science fiction magazines.


The obvious difference here is that Hubbard actually created one.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There's a story widely told, but possibly apocryphal, that Scientology started as a bet between LRH and another science fiction writer (usually Heinlein, but sometimes Asimov)...


Harlan Ellison claims to have been present when the bet was made, so I tend to disbelieve it.

Another version is that the three discussed each doing major stories about a manufactured religion. Seems possible though the resulting works usually cited as the products certainly are spread out in time!

Clearly, based on a number of sources, Hubbard said more than once that religion was a great way to make a buck.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> The obvious difference here is that Hubbard actually created one.


Asimov said that Hubbard said it; i.e., he serves as independent confirmation of what Hubbard said.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> PIt's strange to me that whole families of parents, children and grand parents turn their backs on members who simply question Scientology. Every religion should have a come when you want and leave when you want with no repercussions philosophy.


While other religions may not openly encourage repercussions for leaving or speaking out against the church, many believers still do similar things in the name of their beliefs. I watched a documentary about Atheist on CNN the other night. They had an segment about a young man who lived in a very religious Christian family who decided he didn't believe and joined an Atheist club at his college. His Dad said on camera that he doesn't really talk to his son anymore because "The reality is, youre talking to a dead person". There was another man who was a preacher that decided he no longer believed and because of that his wife left him. There are also many, many, stories out there of Christian families completely disowning their own children because they come out as gay. So these sorts of things are not unique to Scientology.

Based on this documentary it looks like Scientology is just a really wealthy cult. No different then the hundreds of cults that have existed in the name of Christianity. They just managed to suck in much wealthier believers.

The whole story about Zenu and the volcano is really no more ridiculous then two people populating the entire earth or a man rising from the dead. It's all fiction paraded as truth.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> The whole story about Zenu and the volcano is really no more ridiculous then two people populating the entire earth or a man rising from the dead. It's all fiction paraded as truth.


The difference is pretty huge, though.

Zenu isn't hard-wired into our culture so we get indoctrinated into it from birth, regardless of whether or not we attend the services.

As the saying goes, "'We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> While other religions may not openly encourage repercussions for leaving or speaking out against the church, many believers still do similar things in the name of their beliefs. I watched a documentary about Atheist on CNN the other night. They had an segment about a young man who lived in a very religious Christian family who decided he didn't believe and joined an Atheist club at his college. His Dad said on camera that he doesn't really talk to his son anymore because "The reality is, youre talking to a dead person". There was another man who was a preacher that decided he no longer believed and because of that his wife left him. There are also many, many, stories out there of Christian families completely disowning their own children because they come out as gay. So these sorts of things are not unique to Scientology.


And I've heard of Islamic fanatics actually killing people who leave Islam. I don't know enough about any other religions, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of that goes on in them.

It's hard to tell what the line is between "cult" and "religion", especially at the fringes.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Scientology seems to be a California thing.


It only seems this way because of a few high profile actors are members.


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## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

allan said:


> It's hard to tell what the line is between "cult" and "religion", especially at the fringes.


The number of practicioners. That's the only difference.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

allan said:


> It's hard to tell what the line is between "cult" and "religion", especially at the fringes.


It is, but I think they way they isolate their followers from learning anything bad about the religion and openly attack anyone who says anything negative about their religion makes it more cult like. But I guess maybe they have to do that sort of stuff to protect their "brand" since they don't have thousands of years and millions of followers to do it for them.


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## gschrock (Dec 28, 2001)

I've always found it kinda amusing that they have a cruise ship. Seems to be docked in Aruba an awful lot (on cruises I've taken (obviously not on their ship), if we stop in Aruba it's almost always there. Course, don't know if it's still closed off because of asbestos, that could be why it's always there.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

cheesesteak said:


> Here's Scientology's rebuttal to the HBO documentary: http://www.freedommag.org/hbo/ As described in the documentary, these guys don't mess around, they attack.


Wow. The response videos about the participants are pretty amusing.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I think Scientology's response is more for their own members than it is for the public.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> I think Scientology's response is more for their own members than it is for the public.


In which case simply yelling loud so everyone in the room could hear it might have been just as effective.


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## cheerdude (Feb 27, 2001)

Haven't seen it yet... but do they mention Lisa McPherson at all in the documentary? Hearing about her story was the first time that I had heard about Scientology; although I knew of Hubbard before that.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The difference is pretty huge, though.
> 
> Zenu isn't hard-wired into our culture so we get indoctrinated into it from birth, regardless of whether or not we attend the services.
> 
> As the saying goes, "'We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."


Which sort of gets to my point. Think about it from a rational 21st century viewpoint how silly some tenants of the Judeo-Christian bible and culture seem when you put them up against what we know now. They can be perceived as 2000 (or more) year old stories told during a time when so much of what we know now as science seemed otherwordly (and I'm sure a lot of Islam falls into this rhelm as well, I just don't know enough about it to form an opinion). Is it any more silly than what Scientology is? It's only because it's a 20st Century religion that spits in the face of organized established religions. I'm not saying I believe in Scientolgoy (I don't), but that if you take a step back and look at ALL religion, there's a lot that seems really silly and controlling.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

verdugan said:


> The number of practicioners. That's the only difference.


I think a lot of it is also history and culture. I'm sure in the time of the Romans, Christianity was a cult. Now it's a religion. Why? because of 2000 years of it dominating European and eventually American culture. Judaism is a small religion, but not considered a cult because it's been around longer than even Christianity. LDS is considered a cult by some because the religion is not even 200 years old.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The difference is pretty huge, though.
> 
> Zenu isn't hard-wired into our culture so we get indoctrinated into it from birth, regardless of whether or not we attend the services.
> 
> As the saying goes, "'We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."


Watch "Religilous".


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## Thom (Jun 5, 2000)

mattack said:


> Watch "Religilous".


Correct spelling: Religulous.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Which sort of gets to my point. Think about it from a rational 21st century viewpoint how silly some tenants of the Judeo-Christian bible and culture seem when you put them up against what we know now. They can be perceived as 2000 (or more) year old stories told during a time when so much of what we know now as science seemed otherwordly (and I'm sure a lot of Islam falls into this rhelm as well, I just don't know enough about it to form an opinion). Is it any more silly than what Scientology is? It's only because it's a 20st Century religion that spits in the face of organized established religions. I'm not saying I believe in Scientolgoy (I don't), but that if you take a step back and look at ALL religion, there's a lot that seems really silly and controlling.


Which is basically the whole point of Trey and Matt's "Book of Mormon". Yes, they were specifically mocking LDS, but it really could have been about any religion. They all contain stuff that seems rather ludicrous when held up to scrutiny.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Scientology seems to be a California thing.


We had a very prominent veterinarian here in my little Arkansas town who was very much into Scientology. People loved him and he won all sorts of people's choice awards as "Favorite Veterinarian". He was very personable, upbeat....almost too happy.

Remember Tom Cruise jumping on Oprah's couch? I could see this guy doing just that.

He spent a lot of time in Florida on Scientology trips and eventually sold his 3 practices here and moved there. I wonder if Florida has a large Scientology population? (in comparison to other states)


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> We had a very prominent veterinarian here in my little Arkansas town who was very much into Scientology. People loved him and he won all sorts of people's choice awards as "Favorite Veterinarian". He was very personable, upbeat....almost too happy.
> 
> Remember Tom Cruise jumping on Oprah's couch? I could see this guy doing just that.
> 
> He spent a lot of time in Florida on Scientology trips and eventually sold his 3 practices here and moved there. I wonder if Florida has a large Scientology population? (in comparison to other states)


Scientology headquarters are in Clearwater, Florida. I don't think they have any real presence outside of that area though.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Scientology headquarters are in Clearwater, Florida. I don't think they have any real presence outside of that area though.


His "new" practice (he moved several years ago, so new as in comparison to the one here) is in Palm Harbor. Makes perfect sense. I had always assumed the church was why he moved down there.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

cheerdude said:


> Haven't seen it yet... but do they mention Lisa McPherson at all in the documentary? Hearing about her story was the first time that I had heard about Scientology; although I knew of Hubbard before that.


No, they completely avoided any mention of Lisa McPherson (though people should Google her story). HBO could have done like they did for Robert Durst and commissioned a 6-part documentary in order to expose more of Scientology's dark underbelly.

I had researched Scientology about 15 years back and it is mind-boggling to see videos of some members actively pursuing and intimidating people who managed to break out of this awful cult, and then to see interviews with these same people after THEY got out and how the same tactics they had used against others were now being used against them.

Try to watch the BBC documentary as well.



Jstkiddn said:


> We had a very prominent veterinarian here in my little Arkansas town who was very much into Scientology. <snip>
> He spent a lot of time in Florida on Scientology trips and eventually sold his 3 practices here and moved there. I wonder if Florida has a large Scientology population? (in comparison to other states)


I wouldn't be surprised if he sold his 3 practices to give to Scientology and he may now be happily scrubbing toilets with a toothbrush in the double-wide trailer in Florida.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I just googled him and found a video of him hawking something called Clear Advantage Profit Solutions. 

"Clear"? LOL Yes, it appears to have ties to Scientology.

edit: Kevin Adney, DVM if anyone is curious.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

About 30 years ago when we had our first townhouse our next door neighbor (single 30 something woman) got into Dianetics. One night we could here her crying and screaming and we could hear others in her place the guy on the otherside went over to see if everything was ok and was convinced she was ok. Right after this she had a breakdown and had to be hospitalized.


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## xuxa (Oct 8, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> I haven't watched yet, but isn't there a large location in Clearwater, FL?


Yes, they own a bunch of buildings in downtown Clearwater and they have had a plan to pretty much take over the city. Start taking pictures in the area and you will quickly be visited by their security


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

xuxa said:


> Yes, they own a bunch of buildings in downtown Clearwater and they have had a plan to pretty much take over the city. Start taking pictures in the area and you will quickly be visited by their security


Sorta' like Area 51, huh? Xenu, space aliens ... do the math!


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## bruab (Nov 16, 2001)

I'm just finishing the book and it's fascinating stuff, especially the early years about LRH. It's interesting that like some other religions, Scientology had a succession issue when he died. Miscavige muscled out the two people LRH designated as his successors.


The Lisa McPherson story is in the book, BTW.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

bruab said:


> I'm just finishing the book and it's fascinating stuff, especially the early years about LRH. It's interesting that like some other religions, Scientology had a succession issue when he died. Miscavige muscled out the two people LRH designated as his successors.
> .


I wish they would have gone into that more in the documentary. In the documentary, it was basically (paraphrasing), "When LRH died,, there was a leadership vacuum. But then Miscavige stepped up to the plate. the end."


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I have this on a DVR and I am looking forward to watching it. About the only thing I know about Scientology came from the South Park episode from 6 years ago or so. I thought that was great, Thetans, e-meters and alien souls and I thought they made all of that stuff up. That couldn't possibly be part of Scientology, who could believe that nonsense? Then I read it had a basis in reality, it wasn't just an absurd parody, I laughed more after I read that, it made it even funnier.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

It is pretty bizarre what otherwise sane and smart people will believe... Someone able to turn a few fish and bread loaves into enough food to feed a huge crowd, someone talking to their deity via a burning bush, someone walking on water, someone seeing their deity in a piece of toast, and so on.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Watched this a couple days ago. It basically confirmed everything I had heard about it, and Tom Cruise.

I remember seeing Dianetics commercials when I was a kid...they were really compelling. I remember thinking it was about developing psychic powers.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Harlan Ellison tells the story that he was there, as a 16-year old, when Hubbard was complaining that you couldn't make enough money at a penny a word, and that it was Lester Del Ray, who had been a former evangelist, who suggested "Start a religion", and that the writers around the table then suggested various components that became part of Dianetics.






If you don't want to watch the video, you can read the story, told again in text, here: http://tonyortega.org/2013/02/16/scientology-mythbusting-with-jon-atack-making-a-million/


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> Harlan Ellison tells the story that he was there, as a 16-year old, when Hubbard was complaining that you couldn't make enough money at a penny a word, and that it was Lester Del Ray, who had been a former evangelist, who suggested "Start a religion", and that the writers around the table then suggested various components that became part of Dianetics.


Unfortunately, as I understand it Ellison's story has shifted pretty radically over time (including when it happened and who was involved), until nobody is sure if it's something that actually happened, or something that he has convinced himself happened (like Brian Williams and the helicopter), or something that he just wanted to have happened.

I really want to believe it, because it fits so perfectly with my preconceptions about Scientology and Hubbard, but I have a hunch that it's just Ellison's memory playing tricks with the story about Hubbard saying the way to make money is to start a religion (which seems to be much better attested) until A) Ellison was there, and B) it was much more than it really was...


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## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I think a lot of it is also history and culture. I'm sure in the time of the Romans, Christianity was a cult. Now it's a religion. Why? because of 2000 years of it dominating European and eventually American culture. Judaism is a small religion, but not considered a cult because it's been around longer than even Christianity. LDS is considered a cult by some because the religion is not even 200 years old.


I think once you reach into the millions, you are way into religion territory. So Judaism is very much a religion.

And I totally agree with you, Christianity in its day was a cult as far as the established religions of the time were concerned.


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## bsnelson (Oct 30, 1999)

I just watched this. I'd heard some of the stuff before, but wow. Now I definitely understand the hold that the thing has on Tom Cruise. 

Hopefully the whole thing will wither and die with so much of the truth being exposed these days. They learned years ago that they can't control the Internet; the truth is out there 

Brad


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> The striking thing to me was the comment early on by (I think) it was his ex wife where LRH was supposed to have said, (paraphrasing), the easiest way to make money was to have a religion. I think it's one of the reasons why they fought so hard for tax-exempt status and blackmailed the IRS into giving it to them. Then sucker a bunch of rich folk to donate and now the church is worth billions.
> 
> But this kind of made me think, and I'll preface this by saying I'm an agnostic. What if something like the Catholic Church was new (I chose that because it is HIGHLY organized in a way that Scientology is) today and we know nothing of God and Jesus. Think about how crazy some of the ideas of the RC church would sound? And think back about how they used to use similar tactics to get people to blindly follow and how if you didn't they'd excommunicate you. So new religion = cult, but old religion = non cult? I guess it depends on how you define cult.
> 
> OK, discuss. I'm sure I'll get berated pretty badly now.


scientology and Christianity make the same amount of sense to me.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> I think a lot of it is also history and culture. I'm sure in the time of the Romans, Christianity was a cult. Now it's a religion. Why? because of 2000 years of it dominating European and eventually American culture. Judaism is a small religion, but not considered a cult because it's been around longer than even Christianity. LDS is considered a cult by some because the religion is not even 200 years old.


I was raised catholic. So after Going Clear, I got to thinking how similar some of the areas are (creation myth, confession, giving of money, transcendence). The Catholics just figured out a much more sustainable way of not taking too much and giving enough back. Scientology can't fund Miscavige directly, but somehow the pope can have his own city/country. Then there was the whole Crusades thing. It really is fascinating to think about. All religions started as a cult with some mesmerizing, charismatic figure (although I sure don't see that with LRH. Evidently going clear doesn't work on teeth). A handful survived to become global cultural "norms". And now Islam seems to be conducting their own crusade.

I was at dinner with some folks and we got to talking about how the couples met. One were high school sweethearts. The parents were a little reluctant for a Catholic to marry a Presbyterian. And I thought wow, you have this vast compendium of shared belief, but somehow variety B is wrong, and wrong enough to potentially disrail a wedding.

So, in 500 years, if Scientology survives, it will no doubt fracture into branches that argue over some aspect of the teaching. What a crazy species we are!


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

I always knew LRH was a nut case, but just how much more of a nut case is really apparent in this program.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Unfortunately, as I understand it Ellison's story has shifted pretty radically over time (including when it happened and who was involved), until nobody is sure if it's something that actually happened, or something that he has convinced himself happened (like Brian Williams and the helicopter), or something that he just wanted to have happened.
> 
> I really want to believe it, because it fits so perfectly with my preconceptions about Scientology and Hubbard, but I have a hunch that it's just Ellison's memory playing tricks with the story about Hubbard saying the way to make money is to start a religion (which seems to be much better attested) until A) Ellison was there, and B) it was much more than it really was...


I don't doubt you. I'll have to dig out my copy of "Before the Golden Age" to verify, but my memory tells me that Asimov tells the story there of Hubbard making the "only way to make money is to start a religion" speech at a con, where he didn't win any awards. The way I remember the story was that Hubbard was angry when he said that, but that's not how Ellisons story works at all, so I don't trust my own memory, and I'm not sure what box that particular book is in. (But maybe it wasn't a con, but a gathering, perhaps, since Cons weren't big then, but were by the time I read it, and maybe I just conflated the two).


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

SNL did a great Scientology parody video last night. Both the SNL video and the original one that they are parodying are here:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/brilliant-snl-fake-ad-ridicules-scientology-and-cultish-fad-religions/

Youtube links are unreliable b/c both NBC and Scientology are equally nasty with takedown notices.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

Maybe someday Matt and Trey will do a 'Book of Scientology' musical.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> SNL did a great Scientology parody video last night. Both the SNL video and the original one that they are parodying are here:
> 
> http://www.mediaite.com/tv/brilliant-snl-fake-ad-ridicules-scientology-and-cultish-fad-religions/
> 
> Youtube links are unreliable b/c both NBC and Scientology are equally nasty with takedown notices.


It's also available on Yahoo Screen. And that one shouldn't disappear.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I just turned HBO back on in prep for the upcoming GoT season, so I caught this on the other night and hit record. I just finished watching it this morning.

Mind boggling does not begin to accurately describe what I just saw. Although, I do have to give kudos to them for setting up an almost perfect situation for themselves. Get people to tell you their deepest, darkest secrets and then use those secrets as leverage against them. And somehow make them LIKE IT! Genius!

Oh, one afterthought. L. Ron's teeth? WTF?


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I watched it and thought it was really good. The former high level members that have so many shocking things to say makes me think it is all true or at least mostly true. 

I am still not clear on the origins as described by LRH, something about Xenu sending airplanes from somewhere that dropped cryogenically frozen people into volcanoes on earth or was Xenu just the chosen overlord after the thawed, Thetan infested people emerged from the volcanoes? Who is God in this religion, LRH, Xenu, or other?


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

I found 2 things really amazing. First, they have all these people getting indoctrinated into a religion that doesn't even tell the people what the origins are until they have been there for a few years. 

Second, LRH didn't even have enough imagination to come up with fancy spaceships. He said the vehicles looked similar to the airplanes of the time he wrote his fairy tale. He didn't even understand that you don't need wings on a spaceship.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

midas said:


> Second, LRH didn't even have enough imagination to come up with fancy spaceships. He said the vehicles looked similar to the airplanes of the time he wrote his fairy tale. He didn't even understand that you don't need wings on a spaceship.


But don't they have to enter the atmosphere and maneuver to drop the people into the volcanoes?


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But don't they have to enter the atmosphere and maneuver to drop the people into the volcanoes?


Actually you'd probably something more like a helicopter or Harrier type device. I'm not thinking a DC-10 is going to be able to hover very well.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I watched it and thought it was really good. The former high level members that have so many shocking things to say makes me think it is all true or at least mostly true.
> 
> I am still not clear on the origins as described by LRH, something about Xenu sending airplanes from somewhere that dropped cryogenically frozen people into volcanoes on earth or was Xenu just the chosen overlord after the thawed, Thetan infested people emerged from the volcanoes? Who is God in this religion, LRH, Xenu, or other?


Xenu was (is?) the galactic overlord from 75 million years ago who sent thetans to Earth.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

midas said:


> Actually you'd probably something more like a helicopter or Harrier type device. I'm not thinking a DC-10 is going to be able to hover very well.


Wouldn't have to hover...just fly over and drop them out the bomb hatch!

It's easy when Xenu's on your side...


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Wouldn't have to hover...just fly over and drop them out the bomb hatch!
> 
> It's easy when Xenu's on your side...


Well maybe if he was the pilot.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I am still not clear on the origins as described by LRH, something about Xenu sending airplanes from somewhere that dropped cryogenically frozen people into volcanoes on earth or was Xenu just the chosen overlord after the thawed, Thetan infested people emerged from the volcanoes? Who is God in this religion, LRH, Xenu, or other?


From what I gleaned Xenu is the ruler of the other planet. The people he dropped into the volcanoes are what became the Thetans. They're like little ghosts that infest people and cause them pain and mental illness.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

getreal said:


> Xenu was (is?) the galactic overlord from 75 million years ago who sent thetans to Earth.





Dan203 said:


> From what I gleaned Xenu is the ruler of the other planet. The people he dropped into the volcanoes are what became the Thetans. They're like little ghosts that infest people and cause them pain and mental illness.


Alright, thanks, now that makes sense. There is no god according to Scientology but there is demonic possession or I guess more properly, Thetanic possession. No wonder people are paying all of that money to be audited and rid of those awful Thetans.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Where do the Thetans go when you expel them?

Are you actually being selfish and causing other people pain by driving your Thetans out because now they need a new home?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Where do the Thetans go when you expel them?
> 
> Are you actually being selfish and causing other people pain by driving your Thetans out because now they need a new home?


That information will cost you.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

bruab said:


> It's interesting that like some other religions, Scientology had a succession issue when he died.


I realize this is tangential, but what other religions had this issue? (I guess Sunni vs Shia is the other one I can think of at the moment..)

When did "we" start counting years based on 1 AD?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mattack said:


> When did "we" start counting years based on 1 AD?


They came up with the notion in the 6th century, but it took a few centuries after that for it to become widely used.

Before then (and really, to a large degree for a long time after then) years were counted by the reign of the most important local ruler (usually a king or emperor). And even before then, the Romans used Consular years (i.e., "In the Consulship of Joe and Bob").


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Apparently, one of the interviewees in the documentary is Mike Rowe's assistant.
https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMik...41827.116999698310182/971620766181400/?type=1

How long until Scientology goes after Rowe?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

midas said:


> I found 2 things really amazing. First, they have all these people getting indoctrinated into a religion that doesn't even tell the people what the origins are until they have been there for a few years.


And that's after they've extracted a fair amount of money from their followers.

At least with other major religions, it doesn't cost you that much to find out what it's about.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

mattack said:


> I realize this is tangential, but what other religions had this issue?


Mormons and Buddhists, to name two.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Finally saw this today. I was surprised to learn that LRH and Miscavige were/are genuinely bat-**** crazy. I always thought they knew what they were doing (i.e., they were cynical, not insane), but it's pretty clear they both drank their own Kool-Aid.

And now I really want to read the book.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Finally saw this today. I was surprised to learn that LRH and Miscavige were/are genuinely bat-**** crazy. I always thought they knew what they were doing (i.e., they were cynical, not insane), but it's pretty clear they both drank their own Kool-Aid.


LRH was definitely nuts, but I'm not convinced that Miscavige is. I think he's just a power hungry megalomaniac.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I did hear on the news that Tom Cruise is leaving Scientology behind but didn't try to find any subsequent stories to see if that has happened. Scientology may be the biggest bunch of stupid BS ever invented by man and passed off as religion, and I know it has a lot of competition for that title.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I did hear on the news that Tom Cruise is leaving Scientology behind but didn't try to find any subsequent stories to see if that has happened. Scientology may be the biggest bunch of stupid BS ever invented by man and passed off as religion, and I know it has a lot of competition for that title.


Replace "biggest" with "newest" and I'd agree with you!


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

allan said:


> It's hard to tell what the line is between "cult" and "religion", especially at the fringes.


About a century or so. Other than that, there's no difference.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

I'm surprised that so many people are viewing this documentary as some kind of revelation. The truth about them was pretty well exposed during the church's war against the internet in the late 80s/early 90s, and then the South Park guys exposed them again in the early 2000s. 

Are people not paying attention, or do they just keep forgetting?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

busyba said:


> I'm surprised that so many people are viewing this documentary as some kind of revelation. The truth about them was pretty well exposed during the church's war against the internet in the late 80s/early 90s, and then the South Park guys exposed them again in the early 2000s.
> 
> Are people not paying attention, or do they just keep forgetting?


I saw the South Park episode, but other than that, I knew nothing about Scientology, so much of what was in the doc was new to me, especially the stuff about how they treat their members.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

The Cult of $cientology is all about controlling the message.

There have been dozens of documentaries and documentation about the atrocities that they cause. Including "taking care of" those who seek to expose them. (They apparently have high-ranked people inside the IRS - enough to quash any sort of investigation or audit into them). And when I say "take care of" I don't mean simple harassment. Encouraging members to actively terminate those people is the name of the game.

And so is, of course, taking down any site hosting any sort of information.

Also look at the messaging - you never hear of $cientology - they never actively promote themselves under that banner UNTIL you get in. You'll get provocative signage along the lines of "Are you feeling empty? Try our book" or "Book an appointment". It's all about keeping a low profile so the masses don't really know what it is. (As you can guess from the dollar sighs, they also means test you - if you're too poor, they do not help. Their goal is really to part you from as much money as they can, hence why their membership consists of a large number of richer people. You can't advance without money. You're not a true believer unless you can spend millions.).

As for cult vs. church, I suppose one difference is charity. Most religions as we recognize them do provide charitable work. Cults generally do not, since their goal is to attract the right kind of members, and generally those are ones with means.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

busyba said:


> I'm surprised that so many people are viewing this documentary as some kind of revelation. The truth about them was pretty well exposed during the church's war against the internet in the late 80s/early 90s, and then the South Park guys exposed them again in the early 2000s.
> 
> Are people not paying attention, or do they just keep forgetting?


Not paying attention. It doesn't impact their life so they don't care.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> Replace "biggest" with "newest" and I'd agree with you!


This


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Worf said:


> (They apparently have high-ranked people inside the IRS - enough to quash any sort of investigation or audit into them).


Did you see this documentary? It went into them vs. the IRS.. Not "inside" people, but the whole lawsuit.


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