# TiVo Cuts 50 Jobs Amid Restructuring



## apsarkis (Nov 16, 2004)

"Signaling a greater emphasis on MVPD partnerships and a reduced focus on its retail strategy, TiVo is pushing ahead on a restructuring and reorganization that will affect about 50 full-time employees and a number of contractors."

http://www.multichannel.com/news/content/tivo-cuts-50-jobs-amid-restructuring/402924


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## caughey (May 26, 2007)

It's not good news when people lose jobs, but that's the reality of business.

There was an interesting paragraph at the end:


> Though TiVo is placing a greater emphasis on North American MSO growth and international expansion, it isn't abandoning the retail market, a company official said.
> 
> TiVo, for example, will continue to support and bring new features to products such as the new 4K-capable Bolt device and its Roamio DVR family. The company, Multichannel News has learned, is also expected to introduce some new retail-focused products later this year that are not traditional DVRs.


I wonder what a non-traditional-DVR retail-focused product is.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

caughey said:


> There was an interesting paragraph at the end:
> 
> I wonder what a non-traditional-DVR retail-focused product is.


I would guess it not a 6 tuner Bolt.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Tivo considers the Bolt to be non-traditional. They don't call it a DVR, instead it's a "Unified Entertainment System".

It's just part of their internal buzzwords language.


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## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

caughey said:


> It's not good news when people lose jobs, but that's the reality of business.
> 
> There was an interesting paragraph at the end:
> 
> I wonder what a non-traditional-DVR retail-focused product is.


Aereo-centric product?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

caughey said:


> I wonder what a non-traditional-DVR retail-focused product is.


Maybe a streaming box with their UI as the aggregator.

Or, as was said, it's just marketing speak.

I found it interesting they now have less than 1 million retail subscribers (~950k.) It seems even lower than a year ago.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

apsarkis said:


> "TiVo is pushing ahead on a restructuring and reorganization that will affect about 50 full-time employees and a number of contractors."


Well, there go all the skipmode taggers.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

caughey said:


> It's not good news when people lose jobs, but that's the reality of business.
> 
> There was an interesting paragraph at the end:
> 
> I wonder what a non-traditional-DVR retail-focused product is.


Roku?


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

I don't understand why the market for the traditional TiVo is not robust.


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

epstewart said:


> I don't understand why the market for the traditional TiVo is not robust.


Too expensive especially for All-In / Lifetime added on top. No one wants to buy a retail device that has monthly costs.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

epstewart said:


> I don't understand why the market for the traditional TiVo is not robust.


This.

I think people are lazy and just go with the cable company.

You'd have to pry my Tivos out of my cold dead hands.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> Too expensive especially for All-In / Lifetime added on top. No one wants to buy a retail device that has monthly costs.


They could lower the price on TiVo service and more people would buy. It might result in enough more sales to make it worth TiVo's while.


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

People just want simplicity. They make one call to the cable co. and they bring everything out and hook it up. Usually no upfront costs and no separate company (TiVo) to pay. No cable card hassles to deal with. If something breaks or doesn't work right, they just call the cable co. And many don't even realize how much they are paying for the cable co. DVR. And since most have never experienced a TiVo they don't even understand there is a better option (that is often cheaper). It makes it very tough for a company like TiVo. A feature like Skip Mode is smart though, especially if it continues to be a TiVo exclusive. It gives people a new reason to consider TiVo.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> Too expensive especially for All-In / Lifetime added on top. No one wants to buy a retail device that has monthly costs.


But even with the raised lifetime costs, it is CHEAPER over the long run, if people actually knew how to figure out long term costs for things..

but people are stupid.


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## jmerr74 (Nov 3, 2015)

I did the math it worked out for me. My cable bill went from $120 a month to $50. I'll make up my initial costs in les than a year. I'm happy to be back in the TiVo realm.


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

TeamPace said:


> People just want simplicity. They make one call to the cable co. and they bring everything out and hook it up. Usually no upfront costs and no separate company (TiVo) to pay. No cable card hassles to deal with. If something breaks or doesn't work right, they just call the cable co.


I agree with this. Tivo + Cable Card + Tuning Adapter = headaches. If you know and love the Tivo interface, you're willing to do what's necessary to get it working. But it's no fun when you have a problem and you have to make calls to Tivo and the cable company and they're each blaming the other one as the cause of the problem. At least if it's all from one company, they'll make it work.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

sushikitten said:


> You'd have to pry my Tivos out of my cold dead hands.


Word!

(or at least the remotes)


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Traditional DVRs are Tivo's strength.


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## Chevelleman (Feb 28, 2016)

Geez I hope this doesn't they won't be able to fix the mpeg4 skip mode problem now.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

warrenn said:


> I agree with this. Tivo + Cable Card + Tuning Adapter = headaches. If you know and love the Tivo interface, you're willing to do what's necessary to get it working. But it's no fun when you have a problem and you have to make calls to Tivo and the cable company and they're each blaming the other one as the cause of the problem. At least if it's all from one company, they'll make it work.


From the start of the cable card /tuner adapter on the TiVo, TiVo has a hard time competing with the offer of the cable co, my cable plan has a DVR included so if I did not have a TiVo I would have the Comcast DVR, to exchange it for a TiVo I would purchase a Roamio Plus, get a free cable card and $2.50 cr. My Roamio would at least $500 to $700 depending on the time you made your purchase, My most costly Roamio Plus was $225 + $400 lifetime, + $100 for the hard drive upgrade = $725, my least costly Roamio Plus was $450 inc. Lifetime + 100 Drive upgrade = $500. At $2.50/month I will never get my money back, but to me it is worth it.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

Chevelleman said:


> Geez I hope this doesn't they won't be able to fix the mpeg4 skip mode problem now.


Or the problems with Plex on the Bolt ...


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

... Plus, I don't feel that TiVo advertises well. Apple has always sold their products at a premium price, but Apple does great advertising ...


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

I am surprised. I would have thought that more TiVo's for OTA would be sold as the cable companies keep on raising prices. But Antennacraft (RadioShack) is now gone, making it more expensive for many to go OTA.

I guess it has to do with momentum, I paid for Showtime and HBO for years even though I didn't watch them. I did the same thing with AOL, paid for it well after I stopped using it. It did not seem like a lot of money at the time, it was just easier to keep paying, just in case I would use them. 

One problem is that people have tried flat antennas and they don't work all that well in many cases. And there is not much relation between antenna price and results, the whole thing thing is very haphazard and its mostly trial and error. We need better tools.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

jth tv said:


> We need better tools.


Amen to that.

For those wanting to hear TiVo talk, 5pm today: https://biz.yahoo.com/cc/6/150286.html


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## Brad Bishop (Sep 11, 2001)

sushikitten said:


> This.
> 
> I think people are lazy and just go with the cable company.
> 
> You'd have to pry my Tivos out of my cold dead hands.


I think it's a little more than that.

I think there's upfront costs. I can go to the cable company and, while they may charge me $20/month for a DVR, I don't have to pay a huge amount today.

With TiVo there's the upfront cost of he unit plus either the monthly fee or a lifetime fee. So the shopper is thinking, "I can go to the cable company and then be charged $20/mo for their DVR or I can go to TiVo and pay $300 for a DVR and then either pay $20/mo for it (I don't know what the current fee is) or pay $600 for lifetime (I think that's right) - and I have to pay all of that today."

Add to it that cable boxes have improved over the years. They were horrible the last time I used one around 2007 but I have friends that now say, "Yeah, they're pretty good now.." Plus the liability of it all: If my TiVo dies it's my problem. If my cable box dies it's the cable company's problem.

And finally, considering anyone's brush with the cable company regarding cable cards and tuning adapters over the last 10 years and the cable company doesn't look so bad.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

humbb said:


> Well, there go all the skipmode taggers.


They messed up with Blindspot last night. None of my boxes had Skip mode on it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mattack said:


> But even with the raised lifetime costs, it is CHEAPER over the long run, if people actually knew how to figure out long term costs for things..
> 
> but people are stupid.


Well plenty of people can figure it out but they are also lazy. My brother knows that he could save money with Comacst by going to TiVo. Heck he could even save money by going to the X1 platform. But instead he keeps his old Comcast motorola DVRS with external hard drives attached. And keeps paying a monthly fee higher than an X1 box would cost. He just doesn't want to deal with it since he has a bunch of programs on the DVRs with no way to extract them.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

epstewart said:


> ... Plus, I don't feel that TiVo advertises well. Apple has always sold their products at a premium price, but Apple does great advertising ...


iTivo


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

"TiVo, for example, will continue to support and bring new features to products such as the new 4K-capable Bolt device and its *Roamio DVR* family. "

Updated Bolt CPU in existing Roamio boxes would get me to buy.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

Don't forget about the lack of the cable company VoD. I've tried to pitch Tivo to many of my friends but they don't want to give up the VoD. While I know that it's completely replaceable by Netflix or just recording stuff, many of my friends are used to using VoD for kids shows and catching up on shows they didn't record.

I know TiVo has Comcast VoD but in my area the cable options are Verizon Fios or Cablevision's Optimum. Neither of which have their VoD on the Tivo.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

NYHeel said:


> Don't forget about the lack of the cable company VoD. I've tried to pitch Tivo to many of my friends but they don't want to give up the VoD. While I know that it's completely replaceable by Netflix or just recording stuff, many of my friends are used to using VoD for kids shows and catching up on shows they didn't record.
> 
> I know TiVo has Comcast VoD but in my area the cable options are Verizon Fios or Cablevision's Optimum. Neither of which have their VoD on the Tivo.


My co-workers had embraced VoD a few years ago but now they are back to recording everything. Since with VoD, with many shows you can't skip over commercials or FF.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> They messed up with Blindspot last night. None of my boxes had Skip mode on it.


Same problem, maybe one of the employees that left was the Blindspot AD marker


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## Chuck_IV (Jan 1, 2002)

warrenn said:


> I agree with this. Tivo + Cable Card + Tuning Adapter = headaches. If you know and love the Tivo interface, you're willing to do what's necessary to get it working. But it's no fun when you have a problem and you have to make calls to Tivo and the cable company and they're each blaming the other one as the cause of the problem. At least if it's all from one company, they'll make it work.


This is a big issue.

I DON'T believe people are stupid, as someone mentioned above, I believe many actually choose to pay more for the simplicity of the set up.

I was talking to a friend of mine just last night about Tivo. After finishing the discussion, while he liked what he heard, he just didn't want to bother with the hassles involved with getting not only the main Tivo set up with the cablecard/TA,, but also handling a MOCA set up for any minis(since he is not networked all around the home).

Paying extra for less hassle is what he was after and I completely understood.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

kokishin said:


> iTivo


Hee, hee!


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

warrenn said:


> I agree with this. Tivo + Cable Card + Tuning Adapter = headaches. If you know and love the Tivo interface, you're willing to do what's necessary to get it working. But it's no fun when you have a problem and you have to make calls to Tivo and the cable company and they're each blaming the other one as the cause of the problem. At least if it's all from one company, they'll make it work.


I agree with the CC, TA, plus cable companies complete and utter resistance to actually support cable cards and being allowed to get away with this purposeful negligence, combined with the ignorance and/ or reluctance of consumers to use the only real tool they have via an FCC complaint= headaches for the consumer and smiles from the cable companies.
TA's are allegedly used to cram more channels into the existing bandwidth, here's an idea, put all of the shopping channels, religious channels, and "community" access channels on the SDV stations, and most would never need a TA.
Cable card issues can and are always "fixed" when one of the handful of people who know how to properly activate them are eventually located but their knowledge somehow never seems to get translated into a simple "trouble shooting" guide that gets distributed to all of the tech people.
In my opinion, all of the current talk of a "new" box will fall into the same process that the cable card and previous attempts to force retail devices on cable companies. It will be first delay at every step of the process, then do everything possible to cripple the devices, limit their functionality, and make them unnecessarily complex to setup.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> Well plenty of people can figure it out but they are also lazy. My brother knows that he could save money with Comacst by going to TiVo. Heck he could even save money by going to the X1 platform. But instead he keeps his old Comcast motorola DVRS with external hard drives attached. And keeps paying a monthly fee higher than an X1 box would cost. He just doesn't want to deal with it since he has a bunch of programs on the DVRs with no way to extract them.


An argument for TiVo (or teach him about torrents)


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

I can see that some of you missed your morning coffee today. I am not ready to go down the rabbit hole with some of you just yet. I don't believe that TiVo has gotten their new CEO just yet. What could be happening is that they are clearing all the dead wood out before the new guy gets there. (Maybe they are just the lawyers ). They are making changes at the top, and because it is sorrily needed, and it is finally recognized that to take the company in a new direction it requires new leadership. This could be the answer to the complaints many of us have been having over the years. However, many have bought into TiVo despite the complaints hoping for the best. Perhaps, the best is yet to come~


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## Brad Bishop (Sep 11, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> My co-workers had embraced VoD a few years ago but now they are back to recording everything. Since with VoD, with many shows you can't skip over commercials or FF.


I find that VoD is a really poorly implemented great idea.

Problems with:
- forcing commercials
- organization (this is the main one for me): Try to find something. It's incredibly cumbersome to dig through the categories which sometimes may be "genre" and that may be mixed with "TV Shows" or "Movies" (which may or may not lead to adult movies) or "ABC Shows" or "A&E Best Bets" - it's a mess!

It seems like it'd be so easy to fix, too with a top level of:
- Featured
- New Movies (PPV)
- PPV
- Special Events
- New Movies
- TV Shows
- Adult
- TV Channels
- ABC
- CBS
- NBC
- Fox
- A&E
- History
- Movies
- By Name
- A
- B
- D
- By Genre
- Comedy
- Romance
- Action
- Drama
- By Decade
- 1920s
- 1930s
- 1940s
- Genre
- Action
- Comedy
- Drama
- Sci-Fi
- Romance

But no.. They can't do that so, IMO, finding what I want to watch is too much of a PITA. You may go down a series of branches, reach the end, and you can't find what you're looking for. You're pretty sure it's there but now you have to start back at the top and re-guess your way down. It's just so dumb.

It's one of the things I REALLY like about the TiVo: OnePass. It takes all of that nonsense (even on Hulu and Netflix) out of the equation.. Though Hulu and Netflix are MUCH better at getting you to what you're looking for (if they have it).


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

TiVos are hugely better products than they were five years ago. We can use them for whole-home cable or OTA TV viewing and also for Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, Hulu, Vudu, Plex etc. streaming. But I'll betcha that not 1 out of 10 potential customers even knows what-all these boxes can do. Again, I come back to poor promotion and advertising ... and also spotty customer support and problem solving ... These are areas in which there needed to be greater monetary investment, which has not materialized ...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

All of the above. Tivos are expensive. 

Pay $900 up front or $20/mo from your cable/satellite co. Sure you can save money in the long run with a Tivo. I do it. But you can also save money by switching between cable and satellite and taking advantage of their new customer offers. If you're married to Tivo you can't do that because Tivo only works on cable.

ON top of that you still have to pay for cablecard every month which for some is $4-$5/mo.

Tivo doesn't have VoD except for Comcast now I guess. You have to set up your Tivo. The general public is clueless about that stuff and/or doesn't want to be bothered. And then you assume all responsibility if there is a problem.

The "premium feel" of Tivo is lost on most people who, as long as they can record a show and play it back, are happy.


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## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

waynomo said:


> Word!
> 
> (or at least the remotes)


Yes. But with more partnerships TiVo is available as a product from the cable company. Mediacom is in my area offer a TiVo solution. If it was a Roamio I would have went that route then purchase. But they are using the Series 4 or Pace boxes. But it is less a headache. It took me two weeks and about 10 Reps to get my cable card correctly paired.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> All of the above. Tivos are expensive.
> 
> Pay $900 up front or $20/mo from your cable/satellite co. Sure you can save money in the long run with a Tivo. I do it. But you can also save money by switching between cable and satellite and taking advantage of their new customer offers. If you're married to Tivo you can't do that because Tivo only works on cable.
> 
> ...


You left out the cost math when its comes to multiple TVs. We have 3 TVs in out house. Many have more.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Chopra's comments on the future of TiVo indicate the move away from retail and focus more on the MSO side. Even the move away from the CableCard will be focused on how that will apply to their MSO partners and less on retail.
http://www.multichannel.com/news/content/tivo-adds-318k-mso-subs-19k-retail-subs-q4/402965


> Chopra also expanded on how TiVos retail strategy will look amid the companys restructuring. Its not abandoning retail, but it *retail-facing spending levels will come down.*
> 
> I think we've had to make an honest assessment that some of the money we've invested from a marketing perspective has not really generated the kind of subscription growth there that we wouldve liked to have seen, Chopra said.
> 
> ...


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Deepak Chopra need to shut the hell up! 

or I'm going to get Trump on over there!


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

Jed1 said:


> Chopra's comments on the future of TiVo indicate the move away from retail and focus more on the MSO side. ...
> http://www.multichannel.com/news/content/tivo-adds-318k-mso-subs-19k-retail-subs-q4/402965


Seems like discouraging news to me. TiVo continuing to pull resources away from the retail side and disappointed with their growth in that arena.


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## LoveGardenia (Apr 24, 2015)

I hope they continue to give support for years down the road because the money people spent on their boxes and lifetime. TiVo should be seeing some revenue gain on their service with their current plans. As far as the VOD service goes, I have TWC app on the Roku and I can watch a lot of shows and movies without recording. TiVo should try pitching their product and service more with Ad placements on TV, newspapers and mags (a lot people to see that in Doctor offices). As far as the tuning adapters and cable card problems the FCC should/can require cable companies to offer two way cards or better software so those cards will work without TA's. There's no way this can't work because there's too many apps for different cable companies. If I'm wrong please correct me.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

While it might be a bit more convenient for me to buy at Bestbuy and Frys, it is still pretty easy to buy from Amazon. At this point, a Tivo is not a very mainstream product, I would think they would not miss much by simplifying retail by mainly selling through Amazon and Weaknees.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

'Thousands of popular sites' at risk of Drown hack attacks
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35706730

Wake up Tivo.....


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jth tv said:


> 'Thousands of popular sites' at risk of Drown hack attacks
> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35706730
> 
> Wake up Tivo.....


Which relates to the topic at hand how?


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

dianebrat said:


> Which relates to the topic at hand how?


1. Tivo has the problem
2. Maybe because they laid someone off.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jth tv said:


> 1. Tivo has the problem
> 2. Maybe because they laid someone off.


I don't follow. It seems like you just spammed a topic with a random link. Perhaps make your own thread next time.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

TeamPace said:


> Seems like discouraging news to me. TiVo continuing to pull resources away from the retail side and disappointed with their growth in that arena.


If you read the last two paragraphs you will see that retail subscriptions acquisitions costs will be lower, translates to less deals, and MSO hardware costs will move lower as they transition to third party hardware. This translates that there will be no Bolt Pro as TiVo used the Roamio Pro for the T6 MSO unit.



> It also *expects single-digit percentage declines in retail service revenues*, and decreased technology revenue from both lower IP licensing and professional services revenues.
> 
> TiVo is also forecasting adjusted EBITDA for FY 2017 to be $145 million to $155 million, citing higher service and software and tech revenue growth, reduced operating expenses (not including restructuring), *lower TiVo-owned subscription acquisition costs*, and an *MSO hardware margin drop of about $10 million as TiVo continues to transition to third-party hardware.*


They will be using Pace's MG1, which is the same unit for Comcast X1, for MSOs. My cable company is testing the MG1 with TiVo software right now.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

rainwater said:


> I don't follow. It seems like you just spammed a topic with a random link. Perhaps make your own thread next time.


Perhaps it is shades of things to come, layoffs putting TiVo retail customers data at risk.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jth tv said:


> Perhaps it is shades of things to come, layoffs putting TiVo retail customers data at risk.


What are you even talking about?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jth tv said:


> Perhaps it is shades of things to come, layoffs putting TiVo retail customers data at risk.


I have no clue what your agenda is in relation to this thread, you're pretty much just making up facts and spitting them out with no connection to the article posted starting this thread and you've randomly inserted a web vulnerability link in it, do you get click through credits on that link? it's the only logic I can see to posting it.

this aint a BBT thread..


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> this aint a BBT thread..


Where's Professor Proton when you need him?


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

NYHeel said:


> Don't forget about the lack of the cable company VoD. I've tried to pitch Tivo to many of my friends but they don't want to give up the VoD. While I know that it's completely replaceable by Netflix or just recording stuff, many of my friends are used to using VoD for kids shows and catching up on shows they didn't record.
> 
> I know TiVo has Comcast VoD but in my area the cable options are Verizon Fios or Cablevision's Optimum. Neither of which have their VoD on the Tivo.


Really? I always found cable and satellite VoD to be total crap that almost never worked. You're telling me people actually use, rely on, and in some cases, pay to use it? Sometimes I don't feel like I am living in the same world as other people...


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ncted said:


> Really? I always found cable and satellite VoD to be total crap that almost never worked. You're telling me people actually use, rely on, and in some cases, pay to use it? Sometimes I don't feel like I am living in the same world as other people...


The only money maker on the video side of cable companies is VOD. Without VOD, I doubt cable companies could even continue to provide video services at all.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

rainwater said:


> The only money maker on the video side of cable companies is VOD. Without VOD, I doubt cable companies could even continue to provide video services at all.


Cable companies charge extra for VoD? I thought it came with most people subscriptions. Or are you talking about Pay Per View?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> Cable companies charge extra for VoD? I thought it came with most people subscriptions. Or are you talking about Pay Per View?


I know with Comcast and FiOS, VOD includes free titles as well as titles you pay for. So the same moves you rent from Vudu or Amazon to stream, you can also rent those titles from VOD on FIOS and comcast and stream them too.


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

atmuscarella said:


> Cable companies charge extra for VoD? I thought it came with most people subscriptions. Or are you talking about Pay Per View?


Pay Per View is normally an event you pay for to watch as it happens. Video on Demand is just like going to Vudu or where ever you rent movies. You rent the VOD movie. With DISH for example you can rent 1080P movies that otherwise would be 1080I on the normal Satellite channels or any number of current movies.

The material from regular Satellite/Cable channels such as past episodes is free, and normally called On Demand, not Video On Demand.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

tampa8 said:


> Pay Per View is normally an event you pay for to watch as it happens. Video on Demand is just like going to Vudu or where ever you rent movies. You rent the VOD movie. With DISH for example you can rent 1080P movies that otherwise would be 1080I on the normal Satellite channels or any number of current movies.
> 
> The material from regular Satellite/Cable channels such as past episodes is free, and normally called On Demand, not Video On Demand.


Ya terminology is sometimes interesting and different depending on where you are and who you are talking too. Kind of like Soda, Pop, Soda Pop, & Coke, depending on where you are each is used as a generic term for the same stuff.

The people I know who have cable all refer to watching a show they missed live as watching VoD, so that is what I am used to. It has been a long time since I had Pay TV - the last time was dish back in the SD days, I thought we called renting a movie back then Pay Per View, but who knows. I have always considered Vudu pay per view video on demand and something like Netflix subscription video on demand, also refer to both as streaming video again either pay per view or subscription.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Hard to call it PPV because now you have purchase options and two day rentals.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> Hard to call it PPV because now you have purchase options and two day rentals.


Ya little hard define some services, Amazon is even worse could be available via subscription, for rent, or for purchase. Back when I had Dish the Pay Per View/rental movies were for 24 hours so I guess you could watch it more than once if you wanted (actually used to record some with my Humax, might actually still have some movies on it).


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> Cable companies charge extra for VoD? I thought it came with most people subscriptions. Or are you talking about Pay Per View?


Movie rentals are still huge on VOD. Not all content is free, but the free content includes advertisements.

The PPV business is dying a slow death the last few years outside of a few events a year.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

VoD is just the ability to start watching any show whenever you want to whether it's part of a subscription or a 1-time rental without having to record anything first. Content isn't stored locally.

Contrast that with linear which is time slot based and broadcast. 

There are also downloads but those are pretty much VoD these days since you can start watching most of them asap. 

Tivo turns your linear tv into a "managed" version of VoD in many ways. But is limited to what it records. You can't just call up any show at any time. So we call it time shifting.

PPV is, if you think about it, a very "primitive" version of VoD. Same with HBO and its 10 channels. There's lots of showings of the same content and the end result is the end user is much more able to call up a show at their convenience than with traditional linear broadcasting. But it is its own thing.


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

ncted said:


> Really? I always found cable and satellite VoD to be total crap that almost never worked. You're telling me people actually use, rely on, and in some cases, pay to use it? Sometimes I don't feel like I am living in the same world as other people...


The sad thing is, many people use the cable/satellite VOD over Netflix and Amazon and Vudu and Hulu and yadda yadda.

It's very sad.


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## JBDragon (Jan 4, 2004)

TIVO has been pricing themselves out of the market!!! When I got my first TIVO back in 1999, Lifetime was $199. That was high for me back then but ok, Now it's $599. $600 for a program guide. Something I got for FREE using Media Center for a number of years. Where there's other options these days that are either FREE with a Channel Master Box, or some of the others with a $4.99 a month, $49.99 a year or $149.99 Lifetime.. THIS is the kind of prices I would expect for program guide Data. $15 a month? $600 Lifetime. I didn't cut the cord to then be bent over and taken by TIVO!!!

I lucked out and Got a Roamio OTA with Lifetime service for $299. That was a fair price! Of course, 2 Mini's and a Stream later and Tivo had more of my money, but it was a fair deal. Threw in a 3tb HDD into he Roamio. It's a great setup. I hate enough monthly fee's to deal with as it is, I sure wouldn't want a $15. Let alone a Antenna user having to for out $15 a month. 

People are cutting the cord left and Right and TIVO is driving them all away from TIVO with these high prices. The Bolt, Starting price $299.99 to $399.99 you get one year and then it's $12.50 a month, $149.99 a year forever. In only 5 years you've spent $749.95, plus the Box for a total of $1,049.94 to $1,149.94. That's in only 5 years time for a BOLT!!! I paid $299 and got lifetime. That's a fraction of the price. What was selling like crazy? Well the $299 Roamio's were!!! 

Who after cutting the cold in their right mind is going to pay at Minimum $1,049.94 in 5 years time just to use a DVR? What's TIVO smoking? Of course you can go LIFETIME and now it's $299.99, plus $599.99. Now you've spend $899.98. Now that crazy high lifetime price seems better as its cheaper in 5 years time. Who though wants to drop that much money for a service? This is Tivo causing people to flee. It's how much? Hell No!!!

If I had to pay these kind of prices, I wouldn't have a TIVO!!! I cut the cord to stop being raped by the cable company. i sure don't want to be raped by TIVO!!! I don't get the bolt, I don't get the prices. I don't know what sales currently are, but it can't be huge.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

TiVo can be pricing themselves out of the market or price themselves out of business, they not making much if any money so I would like to have the choice of getting a TiVo if I can afford it and think it is a good value for me, if they drop the price and go out of business, I lose that choice.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

JBDragon said:


> TIVO has been pricing themselves out of the market!!! When I got my first TIVO back in 1999, Lifetime was $199. That was high for me back then but ok, Now it's $599.





JBDragon said:


> I lucked out and Got a Roamio OTA with Lifetime service for $299. That was a fair price! Of course, 2 Mini's and a Stream later and Tivo had more of my money, but it was a fair deal.


Here's a link to an inflation calculator. FYI, your $199 from 1999 would be worth nearly $300 now -- about the same thing you paid for your TiVo with Lifetime.

That $300 price was not 'a fair price' -- it was a bargain. You cannot buy a comparable DVR for that price. TiVo is glad you signed up and very happy you invested in a couple Minis and a Stream. TiVo looks forward to collecting your monthly fee when your Lifetime unit fails.


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## HobokenSkier (Oct 14, 2015)

warrenn said:


> I agree with this. Tivo + Cable Card + Tuning Adapter = headaches. If you know and love the Tivo interface, you're willing to do what's necessary to get it working. But it's no fun when you have a problem and you have to make calls to Tivo and the cable company and they're each blaming the other one as the cause of the problem. At least if it's all from one company, they'll make it work.





warrenn said:


> I agree with this. Tivo + Cable Card + Tuning Adapter = headaches. If you know and love the Tivo interface, you're willing to do what's necessary to get it working. But it's no fun when you have a problem and you have to make calls to Tivo and the cable company and they're each blaming the other one as the cause of the problem. At least if it's all from one company, they'll make it work.


My gut feel it that most TA just overheat and then get flakey. Now mine is in a rack it runs cooler and more reliably


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

According to TiVo's new CEO, his comments were misrepresented by the media. TiVo has no intention of exiting the retail market.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

geekmedic said:


> According to TiVo's new CEO, his comments were misrepresented by the media. TiVo has no intention of exiting the retail market.


The initial comments made it clear they weren't exiting the retail business. How anybody could interpret it any other way is surprising to me.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

rainwater said:


> The initial comments made it clear they weren't exiting the retail business. How anybody could interpret it any other way is surprising to me.


Plus if they actually were going to exit the retail market in some fashion, it would be the Bolts that would get abandoned. The Bolt Pro will eventually be what replaces the Roamio Pro for the MSO customers. So if they have to develop a Bolt Pro for the MSOs anyway, then they might as well also have a retail version. Now I could see the development of a Bolt Pro possibly being delayed a while, as demand for 4k hardware from MSOs probably isn't that great at the moment. But a Bolt Pro will come eventually.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

JBDragon said:


> TIVO has been pricing themselves out of the market!!! When I got my first TIVO back in 1999, Lifetime was $199. That was high for me back then but ok, Now it's $599. $600 for a program guide. Something I got for FREE using Media Center for a number of years. Where there's other options these days that are either FREE with a Channel Master Box, or some of the others with a $4.99 a month, $49.99 a year or $149.99 Lifetime.. THIS is the kind of prices I would expect for program guide Data. $15 a month? $600 Lifetime. I didn't cut the cord to then be bent over and taken by TIVO!!!
> 
> I lucked out and Got a Roamio OTA with Lifetime service for $299. That was a fair price! Of course, 2 Mini's and a Stream later and Tivo had more of my money, but it was a fair deal. Threw in a 3tb HDD into he Roamio. It's a great setup. I hate enough monthly fee's to deal with as it is, I sure wouldn't want a $15. Let alone a Antenna user having to for out $15 a month.
> 
> ...


i have been thinking about getting a new 6 tuner tivo. But once i saw lifetime price, i decided no way. There is no way im paying that much, i have purchased 7 tivos so far. I guess it time to look elsewhere.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Plus if they actually were going to exit the retail market in some fashion, it would be the Bolts that would get abandoned. The Bolt Pro will eventually be what replaces the Roamio Pro for the MSO customers. So if they have to develop a Bolt Pro for the MSOs anyway, then they might as well also have a retail version. Now I could see the development of a Bolt Pro possibly being delayed a while, as demand for 4k hardware from MSOs probably isn't that great at the moment. But a Bolt Pro will come eventually.


Does anybody have any information when any MSO is going to start putting out any 4K channels that the Bolt could record in 4K ?? To upgrade from a Roamio with Lifetime to a Bolt with All-in just to get a few streaming channels in 4K does not seem to be a reasonable expense since most 4K HDTV have 4K apps that will let you stream 4K already.
Are any networks going to 4K anytime soon ??


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Videodrome said:


> i have been thinking about getting a new 6 tuner tivo. But once i saw lifetime price, i decided no way. There is no way im paying that much, i have purchased 7 tivos so far. I guess it time to look elsewhere.


What about the Roamio Pro for $499 plus lifetime for $99 deal that seems to still be going on for existing subscribers?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Videodrome said:


> i have been thinking about getting a new 6 tuner tivo. But once i saw lifetime price, i decided no way. There is no way im paying that much, i have purchased 7 tivos so far. I guess it time to look elsewhere.


TiVo was recently offering the Roamio Pro w/lifetime for $600 to people who called in and asked for it. I don't know if that deal is still available, but it's worth a shot if you really want one.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

lessd said:


> Does anybody have any information when any MSO is going to start putting out any 4K channels that the Bolt could record in 4K ?? To upgrade from a Roamio with Lifetime to a Bolt with All-in just to get a few streaming channels in 4K does not seem to be a reasonable expense since most 4K HDTV have 4K apps that will let you stream 4K already.
> Are any networks going to 4K anytime soon ??


There is not even a cable standard for 4k - and licenses in place for all the patents that would be needed by the cable providers and stb.

The license holders of HVEC finally came together and got serious about licensing, but between that, and HDR, no standards in place (and there are competing HDR standards as well, which is more important than 4k in some respects).

Finally, how many cable systems have a ton of bandwidth for 4k?

Nothing insurmountable - but a lot different than if a standard was in place.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> There is not even a cable standard for 4k - and licenses in place for all the patents that would be needed by the cable providers and stb.
> 
> The license holders of HVEC finally came together and got serious about licensing, but between that, and HDR, no standards in place (and there are competing HDR standards as well, which is more important than 4k in some respects).
> 
> ...


So the Bolt and a 6 tuner Bolt is way ahead of its needed time, if the above is true, a 4K DVR is not needed for some time, I know if your purchasing your first TiVo you may want the newest, but the Roamio Plus/pro may be a much better deal (for cost) for the next 3 to 5 years, when the Bolt itself may be replaced by a newer model, and some standard for 4K cable comes into being. Do we know for sure that any of the standards that's under discussion will all work for recording 4K/HDR on the current Bolt model ?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

lessd said:


> So the Bolt and a 6 tuner Bolt is way ahead of its needed time, if the above is true, a 4K DVR is not needed for some time, I know if your purchasing your first TiVo you may want the newest, but the Roamio Plus/pro may be a much better deal (for cost) for the next 3 to 5 years, when the Bolt itself may be replaced by a newer model, and some standard for 4K cable comes into being. Do we know for sure that any of the standards that's under discussion will all work for recording 4K/HDR on the current Bolt model ?


Tell that the Dish and Directv customers who have seen actual 4k live content on their system.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Tell that the Dish and Directv customers who have seen actual 4k live content on their system.


What does that have to do with anything? Satellite is a completely different distribution standard. If there's not currently a way to transmit 4k content via cable, it doesn't matter if satellite is already doing it.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

DevdogAZ said:


> What does that have to do with anything? Satellite is a completely different distribution standard. If there's not currently a way to transmit 4k content via cable, it doesn't matter if satellite is already doing it.


It is just another set of DVRs able to do what TiVo cannot.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

rifleman69 said:


> The sad thing is, many people use the cable/satellite VOD over Netflix and Amazon and Vudu and Hulu and yadda yadda.
> 
> It's very sad.


 They are not fighting for bandwidth with adaptive streaming, cable vod has the potential to work better, you are dealing with a non-internet network.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

wizwor said:


> Here's a link to an inflation calculator. FYI, your $199 from 1999 would be worth nearly $300 now -- about the same thing you paid for your TiVo with Lifetime.
> 
> That $300 price was not 'a fair price' -- it was a bargain. You cannot buy a comparable DVR for that price. TiVo is glad you signed up and very happy you invested in a couple Minis and a Stream. TiVo looks forward to collecting your monthly fee when your Lifetime unit fails.


He said that the Lifetime subscription was $199, not the Tivo. Lifetime for $300 today would still be half of what Tivo is currently charging.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

geekmedic said:


> According to TiVo's new CEO, his comments were misrepresented by the media. TiVo has no intention of exiting the retail market.


He stated their focus and attention was going towards MSOs as that's where the future was. Anyone able to read their 10-Q and 10-K could figure that out. You do not be a CFO or have an accounting degree to spot the trend.

The CMO talk last year essentially stated the same thing.

He never said they were abandoning retail, but as with most company statements, the devil is in what isn't said.

If focus is to MSO equipment, high priced cutting edge retail units will not get even the level of funding they have in the past.

3TB 6 tuners seem to be the "cutting edge" for the foreseeable future.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> It is just another set of DVRs able to do what TiVo cannot.


What do you expect TiVo to do about that? They can't create and deploy the standards necessary to broadcast 4K content over the existing cable systems. They're at the mercy of the cable industry getting their **** together. Until then, TiVo can make all the 4K-compatible DVRs it wants, but there won't be anything for them to record, and the high likelihood is that by the time the 4K standard is deployed, the TiVo hardware/software won't even work with it.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

JBDragon said:


> TIVO has been pricing themselves out of the market!!! When I got my first TIVO back in 1999, Lifetime was $199. That was high for me back then but ok, Now it's $599. $600 for a program guide. Something I got for FREE using Media Center for a number of years. Where there's other options these days that are either FREE with a Channel Master Box, or some of the others with a $4.99 a month, $49.99 a year or $149.99 Lifetime.. THIS is the kind of prices I would expect for program guide Data. $15 a month? $600 Lifetime. I didn't cut the cord to then be bent over and taken by TIVO!!!
> 
> I lucked out and Got a Roamio OTA with Lifetime service for $299. That was a fair price! Of course, 2 Mini's and a Stream later and Tivo had more of my money, but it was a fair deal. Threw in a 3tb HDD into he Roamio. It's a great setup. I hate enough monthly fee's to deal with as it is, I sure wouldn't want a $15. Let alone a Antenna user having to for out $15 a month.
> 
> ...


 Most cord cutters would have never owned a Tivo in the first place, and some will never realize the savings they seek. Cable has never been cheap compared the other things you buy.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

4k is as stupid as 3d, totally unnecessary for most people in their living rooms. 

Just another spec to sell more products at a higher price.


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## connie_w (Jan 10, 2015)

epstewart said:


> ... Plus, I don't feel that TiVo advertises well. Apple has always sold their products at a premium price, but Apple does great advertising ...


I agree. I didn't know there was a Tivo option for me when I was on the hunt for a DVR solution for OTA only. I stuck with cable about 2 years longer than I could have when I was first looking into it because I simply didn't know it was available. It really didn't come up when I was researching. The "helpful" folks at Best Buy even told me there was no DVR for OTA because it was illegal to record OTA. It wasn't until a year or so later when I was at Best Buy again and one of the fellows there told me he "thought" maybe this Tivo thing might do what I wanted and showed me an empty shelf space where it would have been if they had it. LOL!

Then I started trying to figure out things from the Tivo website and Googling specifically for Tivo. Not really a friendly website to find straight-forward information. I believe it was that I finally bumped into this community site that I was able to definitely determine that Tivo would fit my need.

I think they could stand to do more marketing.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

lessd said:


> So the Bolt and a 6 tuner Bolt is way ahead of its needed time, if the above is true, a 4K DVR is not needed for some time


A 4K Bolt is good for streaming 4K content. That is why people are buying 4K tvs. They aren't buying 4K tvs expecting 4K content over traditional cable.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

connie_w said:


> I agree. I didn't know there was a Tivo option for me when I was on the hunt for a DVR solution for OTA only. I stuck with cable about 2 years longer than I could have when I was first looking into it because I simply didn't know it was available. It really didn't come up when I was researching. The "helpful" folks at Best Buy even told me there was no DVR for OTA because it was illegal to record OTA. It wasn't until a year or so later when I was at Best Buy again and one of the fellows there told me he "thought" maybe this Tivo thing might do what I wanted and showed me an empty shelf space where it would have been if they had it. LOL!
> 
> Then I started trying to figure out things from the Tivo website and Googling specifically for Tivo. Not really a friendly website to find straight-forward information. I believe it was that I finally bumped into this community site that I was able to definitely determine that Tivo would fit my need.
> 
> I think they could stand to do more marketing.


Funny, since TiVo is just now saying that they've been spending too much on marketing and getting too little return, which is why they're going to shift their focus to MSO rather than acquiring more retail subscribers.


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## connie_w (Jan 10, 2015)

DevdogAZ said:


> Funny, since TiVo is just now saying that they've been spending too much on marketing and getting too little return, which is why they're going to shift their focus to MSO rather than acquiring more retail subscribers.


Where have they been marketing it? Seriously, I think their marketing group is not doing a good job. Makes me wonder if they aren't just trying to do it themselves and are not using a true marketing staff or agency.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

foghorn2 said:


> 4k is as stupid as 3d, totally unnecessary for most people in their living rooms.
> 
> Just another spec to sell more products at a higher price.


Then HD is unnecessary too. Heck TV in general is unnecessary.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> Then HD is unnecessary too. Heck TV in general is unnecessary.


Well, I suppose that electricity and indoor plumbing are technically "unnecessary" too.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

rainwater said:


> A 4K Bolt is good for streaming 4K content. That is why people are buying 4K tvs. They aren't buying 4K tvs expecting 4K content over traditional cable.


People with a 4K HDTV don't need a Bolt to stream 4K, as the 4K TVs themselves have apps that can do that, the Bolt is a lot of extra money to keep one remote, a Harmony would much less expensive.

And I agree the for most people with 60" or less HDTV 4K input will mean very little difference in the experience, not like SD to 1080i/720P HD. I see movies in a theater and I am not bold over with the great resolution and color depth that a good movie may have, it not like I come out of a theater and say *WOW* I wish I could get that experience in my home, if the story is crap, the picture quality does not matter that much. We are being forced into 4K without the full standard ready and little 4K programing except from satellite and that does not have anything to do with TiVo. As I said before IMHO the Bolt is ahead of its time.


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## mark1958 (Feb 13, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> They messed up with Blindspot last night. None of my boxes had Skip mode on it.


That's strange because mine came thru with skip on both of my Pro's (2/29 & 3/7).


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

connie_w said:


> Where have they been marketing it? Seriously, I think their marketing group is not doing a good job. Makes me wonder if they aren't just trying to do it themselves and are not using a true marketing staff or agency.


For the Roamio launch, I saw billboards (don't remember where, California?) as well as very large (20-30 feet long) poster ads in Dulles airport. Both seemed odd placement choices to me.


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## HobokenSkier (Oct 14, 2015)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> There is not even a cable standard for 4k - and licenses in place for all the patents that would be needed by the cable providers and stb.
> 
> The license holders of HVEC finally came together and got serious about licensing, but between that, and HDR, no standards in place (and there are competing HDR standards as well, which is more important than 4k in some respects).
> 
> ...


h265 reduced bandwidth requirements enormously.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

HobokenSkier said:


> h265 reduced bandwidth requirements enormously.


This is what I think allot of people are forgetting about. h.265 isn't going to be used for just 4K content. As more devices support h.265 more services will utilize it to reduce bandwidth requirements. The Bolt is positioned to take advantage of that and the sooner TiVo has a "Pro" version "unified entertainment system" that supports h.265 the better.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Funny, since TiVo is just now saying that they've been spending too much on marketing and getting too little return, which is why they're going to shift their focus to MSO rather than acquiring more retail subscribers.


TiVo markets their product? I only know about it from the past.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> This is what I think allot of people are forgetting about. h.265 isn't going to be used for just 4K content. As more devices support h.265 more services will utilize it to reduce bandwidth requirements. The Bolt is positioned to take advantage of that and the sooner TiVo has a "Pro" version "unified entertainment system" that supports h.265 the better.


If cable starts going to h.265 (1080i/720P) does that *not* work on the Roamio line of products??


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

lessd said:


> If cable starts going to h.265 (1080i/720P) does that *not* work on the Roamio line of products??


Not currently. It might be possible with a software update, assuming the Roamio hardware is capable of handling it. I wouldn't be too worried though. I doubt any cable companies will use h.265 compression for 1080/720 HD for at least another decade.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Not currently. It might be possible with a software update, assuming the Roamio hardware is capable of handling it. I wouldn't be too worried though. I doubt any cable companies will use h.265 compression for 1080/720 HD for at least another decade.


Yes. They are only just starting to switch to H.264. Look how long that has been out.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

foghorn2 said:


> 4k is as stupid as 3d, totally unnecessary for most people in their living rooms.
> 
> Just another spec to sell more products at a higher price.





aaronwt said:


> Then HD is unnecessary too. Heck TV in general is unnecessary.





tarheelblue32 said:


> Well, I suppose that electricity and indoor plumbing are technically "unnecessary" too.


UHD content with HDR looks amazing. It is very much worth the upgrade. With just the resolution upgrade you need to sit a certain distance away to see the difference. but with HDR, you can sit very far away and still see a huge difference between UHD HDR content and UHD SDR content.

Of course all these things are first world issues. But to me Internet and Tv are just as necessary as electricity.


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## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

Jed1 said:


> If you read the last two paragraphs you will see that retail subscriptions acquisitions costs will be lower, translates to less deals, and MSO hardware costs will move lower as they transition to third party hardware. This translates that there will be no Bolt Pro as TiVo used the Roamio Pro for the T6 MSO unit.
> 
> They will be using Pace's MG1, which is the same unit for Comcast X1, for MSOs. My cable company is testing the MG1 with TiVo software right now.


Mediacom is past testing of the pace 6 tuner Tivo. So must be promising on that end. just not the retail end. But it hasn't been promising for how many years now! So that tells me they are losing money elsewhere (Patents???)and can't take the risk in the retail area.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

lessd said:


> If cable starts going to h.265 (1080i/720P) does that *not* work on the Roamio line of products??





tarheelblue32 said:


> Not currently. It might be possible with a software update, assuming the Roamio hardware is capable of handling it. I wouldn't be too worried though. I doubt any cable companies will use h.265 compression for 1080/720 HD for at least another decade.





aaronwt said:


> Yes. They are only just starting to switch to H.264. Look how long that has been out.


I am nearly certain that h.265 requires the new chip in the Bolt. It may take years for cable to move to h.265 for anything other than 4K, but there is also streaming, & OTA that will also use h.265. I am sure someone will be able to live without h.265 support for a fairly long period of time but if I was paying top dollar for a new DVR I would want h.265 support. TiVo made the right call with h.264 support for the TiVo HD and that was what 8 years ago - my guess is that people who still have a TiVo 8 years from now will want/need them to support h.265 and there is no reason not to expect many new TiVos to last that long.


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## HobokenSkier (Oct 14, 2015)

lessd said:


> If cable starts going to h.265 (1080i/720P) does that *not* work on the Roamio line of products??





tarheelblue32 said:


> Not currently. It might be possible with a software update, assuming the Roamio hardware is capable of handling it. I wouldn't be too worried though. I doubt any cable companies will use h.265 compression for 1080/720 HD for at least another decade.





aaronwt said:


> Yes. They are only just starting to switch to H.264. Look how long that has been out.


All good points.

For bandwidth in the cable pipe switching from mpeg2 to mpeg4 (h264) will be a major bandwidth saver.

The TiVo boxes from premiere on have hardware for that.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

HobokenSkier said:


> h265 reduced bandwidth requirements enormously.


Yes it does.

It also requires EVERY sub on their system to have a new STB/DVR before it can clear up that bandwidth.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

aaronwt said:


> UHD content with HDR looks amazing. It is very much worth the upgrade. With just the resolution upgrade you need to sit a certain distance away to see the difference. but with HDR, you can sit very far away and still see a huge difference between UHD HDR content and UHD SDR content.
> 
> Of course all these things are first world issues. But to me Internet and Tv are just as necessary as electricity.


And currently there are at least 4 different HDR Standards and none are compatible.

Different TVs are using different HDR formats. Last I heard Samsung was using their own HDR format so they would not need to pay licensing fees, lol.

Just today LG announced they would build in support for the top 2 HDR types in their set.

But we (or perhaps I should say I as I have asked multiple times here) have yet to hear what HDR format(s) the Bolt Supports.


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## HobokenSkier (Oct 14, 2015)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Yes it does.
> 
> It also requires EVERY sub on their system to have a new STB/DVR before it can clear up that bandwidth.


As I corrected above mp4 vs mp2 will have the same impact on catv in the near term.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

HobokenSkier said:


> As I corrected above mp4 vs mp2 will have the same impact on catv in the near term.


.h264 is not as efficient as .h265, so no, the impact is dramatically different, not the same impact.

But regardless, all STBs/DVRs on the MSO need to be able to handle the new format before one can clear that bandwidth.

Look at Directv still using tremendous bandwidth on their superior Ku satellites for MPEG2 SD programming when their MPEG4 units have now been available for 10 years.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

tarheelblue32 said:


> TiVo was recently offering the Roamio Pro w/lifetime for $600 to people who called in and asked for it. I don't know if that deal is still available, but it's worth a shot if you really want one.


I grabbed this (with bonus slide remote added for free). Although I wanted a Plus, they ran out. Sold my 2x2 tuner Premieres for $245 each.
$600 (six tuners) - $490 (four tuners) = $110 for two more tuners, modern tech and a free slide remote.
Great deal from my viewpoint. A first time customer may find the prices steep, but a Roamio and some Mini's work a lot better than my mother-in-laws Cox, Whole-Home mess. She's got people out fixing it once a quarter.

A bit concerned that if TiVo reduces retail focus, will we continue to get great, new hardware?


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> TiVo markets their product? I only know about it from the past.


When they left Costco, they lost a lot of traction in my opinion.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> .h264 is not as efficient as .h265, so no, the impact is dramatically different, not the same impact.


Conversion to h.264 from mpeg-2 is actually a much bigger impact than h.265 because the conversion to h.264 is actually happening. Many cable markets are now all digital with all boxes in the field supporting h.264 so this conversion is actually possible. Converting to h.265 is many, many years off and may actually never happen in the cable world.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> And currently there are at least 4 different HDR Standards and none are compatible.
> 
> Different TVs are using different HDR formats. Last I heard Samsung was using their own HDR format so they would not need to pay licensing fees, lol.
> 
> ...


Samsung HDR UHD TVs supports HDR10, which is what UHD BDs support. Sony also supports this as well as most HDR UHD TVs. And if a UHD BD has Dolby Vision HDR, it is required to also have HDR10. Most Tvs that are capable of using Dolby Vision will also use HDR10 as well. HDR10 is supposed to be the standard.

DOlby Vision is supposedly better because it is dynamic throughout the movie while HDR10 is set the same for the entire movie. But whether a home user will actually see a difference between the two remains to be seen. There won't be any UHD BD players capable of DOlby Vision until late this year. The first few players will only have HDR10 capability.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

tvmaster2 said:


> When they left Costco, they lost a lot of traction in my opinion.


Because when I think electronics with great user friendly design the first thing I always think of is Costco.. wait, wut?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

aaronwt said:


> Samsung HDR UHD TVs supports HDR10, which is what UHD BDs support. Sony also supports this as well as most HDR UHD TVs. And if a UHD BD has Dolby Vision HDR, it is required to also have HDR10. Most Tvs that are capable of using Dolby Vision will also use HDR10 as well. HDR10 is supposed to be the standard.
> 
> DOlby Vision is supposedly better because it is dynamic throughout the movie while HDR10 is set the same for the entire movie. But whether a home user will actually see a difference between the two remains to be seen. There won't be any UHD BD players capable of DOlby Vision until late this year. The first few players will only have HDR10 capability.


Last I heard, the BD UHD Specs call for an open HDR Format.

Fox is using HDR 10 while Warners is using Dolby Vision. Last I heard Netflix is also using Dolby Vision.

As HDR 10 can only handle 10 Bit and Dolby Vision can handle 12 Bit, clearly Dolby Vision is superior on that and other fronts, not that the superior tech has always won.

Even CBS has stated that in the 4K masters coverage next month they will not be doing HDR because of the Technology isn't where it needs to be with Standards, so I am not sure why you are calling HDR 10 the standard, just because Fox and Samsung got their UHD BD Player out first.

And this still does not answer the question, which HDR Format(s) if any can the TiVo Bolt do?

It would be nice to get some official specs on that.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> Because when I think electronics with great user friendly design the first thing I always think of is Costco.. wait, wut?


It's about getting to the masses. I can see the point. If TiVo wants to be boutique, then they live in a slim margin. If they want to be successful you sell to the masses. You can still be user friendly (which I don't really think TiVo is necessarily more user friendly than a lot of other electronic devices) and sell to the masses.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Back to the original point from the OP, if some of you that have been around here for a while remember, I predicted this more than 3 years ago. Matter of fact, not to pretend to be Carnac or anything (remembering Johnny Carson) but even the timing is pretty close.

My position - again - is that we here on this forum are not even close to being representative of the overall market. We ARE the "Niche". We manipulate the numbers as to how if you calculate everything perfectly, a Tivo solution can "save money" over an MSO solution. But there are massive problems with that premise. First of all, it's a commitment in order to do it. If you don't commit to a certain number of years of ownership - assuming no other changes - then the Tivo experience is more expensive - in many (if not most) cases FAR more expensive. The second issue is that it locks you into a technology solution for a long time when the market could change around you, making your solution far less effective. It also forces you to take the "maintenance" or "failure" risk. 

Is it a better UI? Yes - absolutely. IMHO. Does it offer some advantages? Sure. Are there advantages you lose? Yes. 

But the fundamental problem is that it's a "luxury" product priced to be a niche offering, complicated by the cablecard issues. Todays retail public is an "instant gratification" buying group. They want it easy, they want it cheap, and they want it now. For actual implementation, Tivo is disadvantaged on all of those fronts. 

I've believed for a long time that Tivo's future is with the MSOs - not with retail. The public has continued to vote that the Tivo retail market - at current pricing, and enabled with current cablecard technology, is simply not large enough to truly be profitable. Tivo has been kind of "circling the drain" in retail for a while, and the new pricing structure (all-in, increased costs for "lifetime", elimination of what we "used to call lifetime") is simply the fight vs flight response of a company that can't find a way to make retail sustainable. 

Tivo can't fix this with reliable 4K. Dolby Vision, etc. Or with a Bolt Pro. I've been on the Tivo train for a while, but I've kept my eyes open, and know that almost certainly, with my Roamio Pros and minis, I've bought my last Tivos. If a tech focused person like me that both has disposable income to spend - AND likes messing with this stuff - feels that way, it's not likely that Joe SixPack is going to suddenly change their viewing habits and spending habits. Tivo is simply too expensive at this point to be a profitable retain venture. They either have to further raise prices (which will cannibalize their existing market, actually reducing revenues) or lower costs - or just concentrate on MSOs.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

wmhjr said:


> But the fundamental problem is that it's a "luxury" product priced to be a niche offering, complicated by the cablecard issues. Todays retail public is an "instant gratification" buying group. They want it easy, they want it cheap, and they want it now. For actual implementation, Tivo is disadvantaged on all of those fronts.


I sort of agree with you on that point. I also consider an AVR 5.1 system to be a "luxury" product, and it usually costs much more than a TiVo. Everyone likes a new, large flat panel TV. Few want large speakers. I would never recommend a TiVo to most people, but for a few friends (technical people tend to have technical friends), I would explain the TiVo world and let them decide.

It's nice we still have a choice. I think there will always be a choice for those with the desire, information and money.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I honestly don't think Tivo will be around a whole lot longer in the retail space. I'm not saying this year or even next year. But Beyond that, I just don't see Tivo being able to support retail operations much longer than that. The market is changing far too much, streaming content really decreases the value of the Tivo experience, and the ongoing migration to IPTV services and cord cutting continues to undermine the market cap Tivo lives in. Unfortunately, I think Tivo maybe had a shot a couple years ago, but it would have had to really streamline and cut retail costs - combined with far better software quality - in order to reduce the cost of entry for a new customer - combined with a better quality experience. But even with that, the changing market kind of turns Tivo into the modern equivalent of a VCR to some extent.

I'm enjoying my Roamio/mini experience right now, but constantly have my eyes open for what's "next" - and for me I can't see it being Tivo. The Bolt - considering the very very small capability addition and the high cost - are not even worth discussing for me. That's even assuming they would (which they probably won't) release a Bolt Pro. Without a Pro, it's not even a viable solution.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I just re-read post # 1 of this thread and its link. It mentions the March 1 earnings report. If you're interested, here is a short version of that report: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/tivo-posts-earnings-q4-lags-141002446.html
It doesn't fill me with doom & gloom.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> Back to the original point from the OP, if some of you that have been around here for a while remember, I predicted this more than 3 years ago. Matter of fact, not to pretend to be Carnac or anything (remembering Johnny Carson) but even the timing is pretty close.
> 
> My position - again - is that we here on this forum are not even close to being representative of the overall market. We ARE the "Niche". We manipulate the numbers as to how if you calculate everything perfectly, a Tivo solution can "save money" over an MSO solution. But there are massive problems with that premise. First of all, it's a commitment in order to do it. If you don't commit to a certain number of years of ownership - assuming no other changes - then the Tivo experience is more expensive - in many (if not most) cases FAR more expensive. The second issue is that it locks you into a technology solution for a long time when the market could change around you, making your solution far less effective. It also forces you to take the "maintenance" or "failure" risk.
> 
> ...


I agree, the problem with cost of a TiVo DVR is dependent very much on the cable system you have, and the cable package you purchase, TiVo is less expensive for a low end cable package that does not come with a MSO's DVR, and far more expensive for some high end MSO packages like I have. My package comes with a DVR, by not taking the DVR I get one free cable card + $2.50/cr. So I am saving $2.50/month by purchasing my own Roamio, and taking on the repair risk, so for me no way you can spin that TiVo is the less expensive DVR option for me, but I want it, and can afford it, so I use TiVo. 
I don't even try to explain TiVo to friends anymore, most just get the Comcast DVR and call Comcast (and not me) when something does not work.


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## epstewart (Mar 1, 2003)

The posts here pretty much agree: the big question for the retail-type TiVo most of us are accustomed to is whether it is worth the money one needs to spend on it, given today's entertainment market. If TiVo Inc. were able to sell any given model (say, the Bolt) cheaply enough, people would flock to it. If it were priced way, way too high, none of us would even care. It seems to be priced in the middle. Sales are not brisk. Which is why TiVo is downplaying retail sales now.

Before, TiVo clearly thought loading up the boxes with a s**tload of features was the way to high sales and profits. My Bolt, my Roamio Plus, and my Mini, taken together, give me incredibly more features than my old, now defunct TiVo models ever had. If I add up the "worth" that TiVo Inc. wants people to ascribe to all those features, my current gear is a huge bargain compared to my defunct gear, even with the cost of lifetime service. However, I don't  and nobody else does  ascribe much worth to several of those features. For example, I don't subscribe to HBO, so I can't use HBO GO.

Each of us has a set of the newer TiVo features we really want, and probably a much larger set of newer features we don't much care about. So the price of a TiVo box with lifetime service does not seem like such a huge bargain. Many of us can get those features and capabilities we really approve of more cheaply by buying other entertainment options instead of a TiVo.

That's what I think the discussion in this thread has mostly been about ...


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

epstewart said:


> The posts here pretty much agree: the big question for the retail-type TiVo most of us are accustomed to is whether it is worth the money one needs to spend on it, given today's entertainment market. If TiVo Inc. were able to sell any given model (say, the Bolt) cheaply enough, people would flock to it. If it were priced way, way too high, none of us would even care. It seems to be priced in the middle. Sales are not brisk. Which is why TiVo is downplaying retail sales now.
> 
> Before, TiVo clearly thought loading up the boxes with a s**tload of features was the way to high sales and profits. My Bolt, my Roamio Plus, and my Mini, taken together, give me incredibly more features than my old, now defunct TiVo models ever had. If I add up the "worth" that TiVo Inc. wants people to ascribe to all those features, my current gear is a huge bargain compared to my defunct gear, even with the cost of lifetime service. However, I don't  and nobody else does  ascribe much worth to several of those features. For example, I don't subscribe to HBO, so I can't use HBO GO.
> 
> ...


TiVo features that go beyond the main DVR function add very little to the value for most users, I use Netflix on my Roamio, but if the Roamio did not have the Netflix app I would not care much as I have Netflix app on my HDTV and my BD player also.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Last I heard, the BD UHD Specs call for an open HDR Format.
> 
> Fox is using HDR 10 while Warners is using Dolby Vision. Last I heard Netflix is also using Dolby Vision.
> 
> ...


With streaming there is no standard. They can use whatever they want. But on a UHD BD, HDR10 is the standard. The Blu-ray Disc Association requirements say that if any other HDR format is used, then HDR10 is also required to be on the disc.

And all my Warner UHD BD titles have HDR10 on them.

As far as the Bolt, while it should be able to use HDR10, I don't think it can do Dolby Vision without the Dolby Vision chip. At least that is the case with the first UHD BD players.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

JoeKustra said:


> I just re-read post # 1 of this thread and its link. It mentions the March 1 earnings report. If you're interested, here is a short version of that report: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/tivo-posts-earnings-q4-lags-141002446.html
> It doesn't fill me with doom & gloom.


You'd better read that report again, friend.

Hardware sales continue to decline. Non-GAAP operating income is WAY WAY down. Operating expenses 27% higher.

My read on the earnings report shows a dependency on MSO agreements and inclusion of them for subscriber base calculations, combined with an expectation for growth pretty much in the Western Europe/Latin areas - again via MSO agreements.

Since this thread is about "retail", there is nothing in that report that is good news on the retail front IMHO.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Being a glass half full kind of person, I read this: The year-over-year upside was primarily driven by higher Service and software and technology revenues (about 83% of revenues), which rose 11% to $101.7 million and was within managements guidance range of $101$104 million.

I have no illusions of TiVo becoming the next Google or Netflix, but I can sleep at night.

I guess we all feel the pain of the higher "Service" revenue. That kinda sucks.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

JoeKustra said:


> I just re-read post # 1 of this thread and its link. It mentions the March 1 earnings report. If you're interested, here is a short version of that report: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/tivo-posts-earnings-q4-lags-141002446.html
> It doesn't fill me with doom & gloom.


Ask the 50 people that lost their jobs because "TiVo is doing so well" How they feel about the 10-K results. I doubt any of them feel the results were great - and most were filled with gloom and doom". Likewise, I doubt firing 50+ people did wonders for moral of the rest of the employees.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

The thing is that you need to look at the 10k from two different perspectives. If you're looking at the viability of the company, it isn't terrible at all - though an approximate 8% headcount reduction isn't reassuring other than to help reduce expense.

From the perspective of the consumer retail market (like us in this forum) it's pretty bad news. 

Those two perspectives are obviously completely separate from the perspectives of the employees themselves.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Ask the 50 people that lost their jobs because "TiVo is doing so well" How they feel about the 10-K results. I doubt any of them feel the results were great - and most were filled with gloom and doom". Likewise, I doubt firing 50+ people did wonders for moral of the rest of the employees.


*shrug* Anyone with half a brain and isn't an idiot (random or not) should know if the business they're working for is performing adequately or not, and would usually know how the pulse of the company is doing.

I've worked for companies where we knew cuts were coming because of overall poor performance, several times we've been surprised to NOT get cuts in a year of poor performance, and then when we had to lay people off morale didn't go in the tank, we knew those of us left were there to help the company get back on its feet, it is possible to view the acceptance of layoffs as a positive that the company knows it has a problem and is working on resolving it as opposed to having its head stuck in the sand. Sure it bites to be one of those laid off, but that's better for the others than closing the company down.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Plus if they actually were going to exit the retail market in some fashion, it would be the Bolts that would get abandoned. The Bolt Pro will eventually be what replaces the Roamio Pro for the MSO customers. So if they have to develop a Bolt Pro for the MSOs anyway, then they might as well also have a retail version. Now I could see the development of a Bolt Pro possibly being delayed a while, as demand for 4k hardware from MSOs probably isn't that great at the moment. But a Bolt Pro will come eventually.


The issue is whether or not Tivo will allow retail to jeopardize their MSO business (which pays the bills). Every new retail purchaser of a Tivo is also someone that is no longer in the market for an MSO- even in the markets where the MSO and Tivo have an agreement. Tivo's way to survive is to make a retail strategy that does not cannibalize its MSO market. The only way I can see that working is basically to do away with Lifetime. If they did that, there would be no reason one couldn't just move to the MSO Tivo (which both Tivo and the MSO want) if they are a customer of an MSO that has Tivo available.

However, that strategy would also likely kill Tivo's viability at retail, so it is a big issue for them. Most who buy a Tivo do so to get streaming services, etc., which also has ramifications for an MSO who really doesn't want to share their users with streaming services, or at least want to make it as difficult as possible.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

larrs said:


> The issue is whether or not Tivo will allow retail to jeopardize their MSO business (which pays the bills). Every new retail purchaser of a Tivo is also someone that is no longer in the market for an MSO- even in the markets where the MSO and Tivo have an agreement. Tivo's way to survive is to make a retail strategy that does not cannibalize its MSO market. The only way I can see that working is basically to do away with Lifetime. If they did that, there would be no reason one couldn't just move to the MSO Tivo (which both Tivo and the MSO want) if they are a customer of an MSO that .
> 
> However, that strategy would also likely kill Tivo's viability at retail, so it is a big issue for them.


Agree completely. For even more reasons. It costs a great deal for Tivo to continue supporting retail. There are additional R&D costs, as well as ongoing support, customer service, etc. These are all operating expenses that detract from discretionary spend on MSO related activities - or that detract from the bottom line in EBITDA.

The larger the delta between revenues from retail vs from MSO, the greater the risk that Tivo exits retail altogether. Frankly, if I were on the Tivo board, that is exactly the direction I'd push for. It cuts a ton of cost while not giving up significant revenue, and allows the company to stay focused. This, while we all see the HW market going through fundamental change.

That's why I'm very curious as to whether there will ever be a "Bolt Pro". I'm also curious about retail only subs, after a little more time passes between the elimination of the "old lifetime" and old multi discounts. Given advances in capacity on MSO provided solutions, were I to be starting out today, there is no way I could justify the expense of 2 "Pro" equivalent units and 4 minis plus lifetime - or with the monthly sub cost. Given the loss of 2 tuners each on the Bolt, that would require 3 Bolts.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

larrs said:


> The issue is whether or not Tivo will allow retail to jeopardize their MSO business (which pays the bills). Every new retail purchaser of a Tivo is also someone that is no longer in the market for an MSO- even in the markets where the MSO and Tivo have an agreement. Tivo's way to survive is to make a retail strategy that does not cannibalize its MSO market. The only way I can see that working is basically to do away with Lifetime. If they did that, there would be no reason one couldn't just move to the MSO Tivo (which both Tivo and the MSO want) if they are a customer of an MSO that has Tivo available.
> 
> However, that strategy would also likely kill Tivo's viability at retail, so it is a big issue for them. Most who buy a Tivo do so to get streaming services, etc., which also has ramifications for an MSO who really doesn't want to share their users with streaming services, or at least want to make it as difficult as possible.


I don't understand this. If someone resides in an MSO served area and gets his own TiVo, the only thing the MSO loses is the rental fee. I don't think that is much of a loss to the MSO. More importantly I think the vast, vast majority of cable subscribers are served by cable companies that don't use TiVos, Charter, Comcast, TWC, etc.

I think the retail market perhaps serves as a proving ground for TiVo, a way to develop their new equipment and get it stable. I'm not sure the MSOs would like to deal with issues that crop up when new equipment or software updates are released.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

UCLABB said:


> I don't understand this. If someone resides in an MSO served area and gets his own TiVo, the only thing the MSO loses is the rental fee. I don't think that is much of a loss to the MSO. More importantly I think the vast, vast majority of cable subscribers are served by cable companies that don't use TiVos, Charter, Comcast, TWC, etc.
> 
> I think the retail market perhaps serves as a proving ground for TiVo, a way to develop their new equipment and get it stable. I'm not sure the MSOs would like to deal with issues that crop up when new equipment or software updates are released.


Actually, rental fees are a very big deal to the MSO. They make up a great (and growing) slice of their revenues. And on top of that, in many cases it's where their highest margin is. So losing rentals definitely impacts them.

Beyond that, it's not a direct correlation between what Tivo develops for retail and what they provide to MSOs. And frankly, the MSOs would far prefer to deal with that issue than to deal with cablecard issues. You need to consider that the MSOs networks (including deployed devices) are controlled via systems that are FAR different than retail Tivos. For example, for many years, those MSOs using Scientific Atlanta hosts used SARA to manage all of the devices.

Bottom line is that current Tivos are a big PITA for MSOs on more than one front.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

larrs said:


> The issue is whether or not Tivo will allow retail to jeopardize their MSO business (which pays the bills).


Last quarter, TiVo's MSO service revenue was 19.8 Million and retail service revenue was $20.01 Million.



larrs said:


> Every new retail purchaser of a Tivo is also someone that is no longer in the market for an MSO- even in the markets where the MSO and Tivo have an agreement. Tivo's way to survive is to make a retail strategy that does not cannibalize its MSO market.


TiVo only has a retail presence in the U.S., and much of its MSO growth is coming from outside the U.S. Additionally, the vast majority of cable subscribers in the U.S. are with cable companies (Comcast, TWC, Charter, etc) that are not partnered with TiVo and never will be.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Last quarter, TiVo's MSO service revenue was 19.8 Million and retail service revenue was $20.01 Million.
> 
> TiVo only has a retail presence in the U.S., and much of its MSO growth is coming from outside the U.S. Additionally, the vast majority of cable subscribers in the U.S. are with cable companies (Comcast, TWC, Charter, etc) that are not partnered with TiVo and never will be.


True and true. However, the retail business is dying while the MSO business is growing with plenty of upside, even if it is Internationally. Add in the support, etc and I would venture that $20.1M impacts the bottom line negatively and the MSO business makes money, hence my comment on the MSO business "paying the bills".

As far as retail, Tivo may have another play with cable cutters, but they'll need to work hard to leverage that with maybe a SlingTV plus streaming type off offering.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

UCLABB said:


> I don't understand this. If someone resides in an MSO served area and gets his own TiVo, the only thing the MSO loses is the rental fee. I don't think that is much of a loss to the MSO. More importantly I think the vast, vast majority of cable subscribers are served by cable companies that don't use TiVos, Charter, Comcast, TWC, etc.
> 
> I think the retail market perhaps serves as a proving ground for TiVo, a way to develop their new equipment and get it stable. I'm not sure the MSOs would like to deal with issues that crop up when new equipment or software updates are released.


It is not about the rental fees, although that contributes beau coup to the bottom line. It is more about controlling the customer. Retail boxes do not get access to the "other" $ervices that an MSO offers (i.e. VOD) and also gives the user access to streaming services that most MSO's would rather avoid in favor of their $ervices.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

dianebrat said:


> *shrug* Anyone with half a brain and isn't an idiot (random or not) should know if the business they're working for is performing adequately or not, and would usually know how the pulse of the company is doing.
> 
> I've worked for companies where we knew cuts were coming because of overall poor performance, several times we've been surprised to NOT get cuts in a year of poor performance, and then when we had to lay people off morale didn't go in the tank, we knew those of us left were there to help the company get back on its feet, it is possible to view the acceptance of layoffs as a positive that the company knows it has a problem and is working on resolving it as opposed to having its head stuck in the sand. Sure it bites to be one of those laid off, but that's better for the others than closing the company down.


Wow....if cutting 50 people increased moral, maybe they should cut 100 more!


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I've wanted to know for the better part of a decade what the heck they were doing to spend $100m per year on R&D. Their output never accounted for it. Always seemed like a goosed number.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I've wanted to know for the better part of a decade what the heck they were doing to spend $100m per year on R&D. Their output never accounted for it. Always seemed like a goosed number.


It does seem like an awfully high number for not a lot of output, and the R&D number has been increasing every quarter for the past year. It was $28.4 Million last quarter. I guess all those bug fixes in the last software update were expensive.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Wow....if cutting 50 people increased moral, maybe they should cut 100 more!


That'd be an AWESOME jab.. if only I'd actually said it, which I didn't, what I DID say was that layoffs do not always result in morale going down if you have a decent dialog with your employees.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

larrs said:


> It is not about the rental fees, although that contributes beau coup to the bottom line. It is more about controlling the customer. Retail boxes do not get access to the "other" $ervices that an MSO offers (i.e. VOD) and also gives the user access to streaming services that most MSO's would rather avoid in favor of their $ervices.


C'mon, I said the most important thing is the vast majority of TiVo retail units go to the big cable companies. The amount the MSOs are losing from customers buying their own tivos has to be peanuts. Just how many MSO customers do you think own their own tivos?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

UCLABB said:


> C'mon, I said the most important thing is the vast majority of TiVo retail units go to the big cable companies. The amount the MSOs are losing from customers buying their own tivos has to be peanuts. Just how many MSO customers do you think own their own tivos?


Again, a UCLA Business School Grad could read the 10-K and calculate a rough figure on that.

Less than 500,000 Retail Subs.

Given OTA runs 11.8% of the general population, one would believe that with TiVo it would be no different - the number drops to below 450k Retail subs on cable.

...even at an average of $20 for the DVR (higher than what I pay on FiOS) would come out less than $9.5M.....but then cablecards cost needs to be subtracted.

Given the variation from Comcast's free for the first to FiOS and others, $3 average is not out of the question, so $150k would come out of that.

So a reasonable number is it cost cable $9M - $9.5M in REVENUE per year.

Of course, there are also Capex Costs with those DVRs, so the bottom line is even less.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

UCLABB said:


> C'mon, I said the most important thing is the vast majority of TiVo retail units go to the big cable companies. The amount the MSOs are losing from customers buying their own tivos has to be peanuts. Just how many MSO customers do you think own their own tivos?


You really don't understand what I am saying. If Tivo is my supplier, the customer sees that and, if I am charging $20 a month for equipment plus a DVR fee of $10, do I really want my customers to be able to go out and buy their own box and at the same time eliminate their access to the other offerings that make me money?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Tivo's retail business is pretty small. Under a million subs and that includes Tivo Minis if I remember correctly.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Tivo's retail business is pretty small. Under a million subs and that includes Tivo Minis if I remember correctly.


As someone said earlier, if I were a Tivo board member, I would likely vote to exit that business- it has to be a drain on profits. My thought is they are waiting until all of the key patents expire and we'll likely see just that. I am afraid we are probably seeing the last of Tivo at retail. However, Tivo supporter or not, cable and OTA customers owe Tivo a lot. The very spiffy new DVRs from the SatCos and CableCos would have never come about without Tivo blazing the trail they did. I still think there is a future for Tivo on the MSO side. In fact, without having to compete with the retail side of Tivo, larger MSOs might actually license Tivo's software.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

larrs said:


> You really don't understand what I am saying. If Tivo is my supplier, the customer sees that and, if I am charging $20 a month for equipment plus a DVR fee of $10, do I really want my customers to be able to go out and buy their own box and at the same time eliminate their access to the other offerings that make me money?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I understand that the TiVo supplied MSOs lose some money if people buy their own equipment. All I am saying is that I don't think it amounts to enough to concern them much.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

larrs said:


> As someone said earlier, if I were a Tivo board member, I would likely vote to exit that business- it has to be a drain on profits.


Tivo releases new software to the retail boxes before the MSO boxes.
The retail customers have become beta testers. I think Tivo and the MSO's recognize the value.


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