# TiVo "Palms"



## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

Sounds like TiVo is currently beta testing a new UI named "Palms".

Can't wait to hear what this is new UI is all about?


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

Source? Sounds tropical. How do I join?


----------



## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

ufo4sale said:


> Source? Sounds tropical. How do I join?


Re: Dreaded Tivo V58 Error - Comcast XFINITY TV | DSLReports Forums


----------



## PCurry57 (Feb 27, 2012)

spiderpumpkin said:


> Sounds like TiVo is currently beta testing a new UI named "Palms".
> 
> Can't wait to hear what this is new UI is all about?


I've been involved with TiVo beta before. Wholehome streaming and mobile streaming (android). Rule one is never post, text or give any public info about beta!

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Yeah, I was surprised at that post shared here from DSLReports. He must have alternate identities to keep him from being kicked out of the Beta program.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Series3Sub said:


> Yeah, I was surprised at that post shared here from DSLReports. He must have alternate identities to keep him from being kicked out of the Beta program.


Some leakage is always inevitable, such as the project name. Major leakage will get you kicked out. Anonymous major leakage will get *everyone* kicked out. They've had to completely drain the pool twice in the lifetime of the program...


----------



## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

kdmorse said:


> Some leakage is always inevitable, such as the project name. Major leakage will get you kicked out. Anonymous major leakage will get *everyone* kicked out. They've had to completely drain the pool twice in the lifetime of the program...


Interesting! I can certainly understand why a mass beheading may be necessary. I do respect a company developing technology or devices who need things under wraps. If they spend the time and money to develop it, then they deserve the rewards, and let the competition do their own work.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BUT I WANT TO KNOW!!!


----------



## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

kdmorse said:


> Some leakage is always inevitable, such as the project name. Major leakage will get you kicked out. Anonymous major leakage will get *everyone* kicked out. They've had to completely drain the pool twice in the lifetime of the program...


In this case, if TiVo cares to identify the leaker, it should not be all that hard to determine the most likely suspect(s), as it is unlikely too many of their beta testers reside in Bellingham WA as b10010011 does.


----------



## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

Being a beta probably means it's far along and release not far away? Just glad to hear TiVo hasn't abandoned TiVo DVRs.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

kdmorse said:


> Some leakage is always inevitable, such as the project name. Major leakage will get you kicked out. Anonymous major leakage will get *everyone* kicked out. They've had to completely drain the pool twice in the lifetime of the program...


I've been in various betas in the past that were scrubbed because of leaks, it's very disappointing to have one Richard ruin it for everyone.


spiderpumpkin said:


> Being a beta probably means it's far along and release not far away? Just glad to hear TiVo hasn't abandoned TiVo DVRs.


I wouldn't make that assumption, I've done enough beta projects with enough vendors over the past 20 years that I've had more than a few that died on the vine, and what became TE4 was in beta for a very very long time.


----------



## keithg1964 (Feb 2, 2006)

Cannot wait for all the "it's new" haters to talk about how bad Palms(TE5) is and you should downgrade(upgrade) to TE3/4.


----------



## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Well, at least it isn't named "face palms?"


----------



## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

ncted said:


> Well, at least it isn't named "face palms?"


That will become the TCF nickname 20 minutes after it is released and a few bugs have been found.


----------



## lhvetinari (Jun 24, 2019)

inb4 the flurry of threads about how TE5 sucks despite having never used it, and 4,000 separate posts asking for downgrade instructions for hardware that doesn't support being downgraded (here's looking at you, Bolt Vox OTA)


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

For those that like TE4, good for them. I don't plan on touching TE3. And if they can make TE5 without discontinuing TE3 or TE4, good for everyone. The more options the better. All I care about is not removing what I like, which is TE3.

Now, where is TiVo_Ted or someone else to calm our fears (hopefully)?


----------



## lhvetinari (Jun 24, 2019)

TKnight206 said:


> For those that like TE4, good for them. I don't plan on touching TE3. And if they can make TE5 without discontinuing TE3 or TE4, good for everyone. The more options the better. All I care about is not removing what I like, which is TE3.
> 
> Now, where is TiVo_Ted or someone else to calm our fears (hopefully)?


I'm not sure TE3 will ever "go away", at least for Roamio/Premiere platforms that currently run it (given the age of the Roamio, I can't imagine it'd run Palms very well - it isn't spectacular under Hydra as it is) but aside from the minor fix last month, it's basically frozen in time.

TiVo_Ted no longer works for TiVo, hasn't since early 2020.

As an aside, I wonder if the recent decision to stop activating plans on existing Premiere hardware is related to the "new hardware" that's supposedly coming down the pipe. Perhaps Palms becomes the next-gen of TE4, for Roamio and newer, while the existing lifetime fleet of Premieres are allowed to stay as-is, like the existing lifetime S3/HDs.


----------



## keithg1964 (Feb 2, 2006)

I just want to be the first that says TE6 Sucks.


----------



## andydumi (Jun 26, 2006)

snerd said:


> That will become the TCF nickname 20 minutes after it is released and a few bugs have been found.


Why wait, that guy on DSL clearly encountnered some bugs already!


----------



## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

TE4 sucking had nothing to do with it being new. It's about good things that were removed and bad things that were added to the Tivo OS.


----------



## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

TKnight206 said:


> Now, where is TiVo_Ted or someone else to calm our fears (hopefully)?


TiVo_Ted was surplussed by the company when the company decided to refocus their efforts elsewhere (along with the preparations for the split/sale/merger). That should likely tell you something about TiVo's priorities IRT their consumer DVR product line(s) going forward (TiVo now primarily cares about the operator market requirements for DVRs and providing customer insights to the operators).

Ted, on the other hand, was last known to be working for Amazon on the Fire TV team.


----------



## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

I want (another) Pony.


----------



## lhvetinari (Jun 24, 2019)

SnakeEyes said:


> I want (another) Pony.


Ask Santa (or your parents)?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

SnakeEyes said:


> I want (another) Pony.


I believe you can still source the FurReal Pony who you can name Buttercup (this is a Spunk reference, of course).


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

PCurry57 said:


> I've been involved with TiVo beta before. Wholehome streaming and mobile streaming (android). Rule one is never post, text or give any public info about beta!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk


The first rule of Beta Club is you don't talk about Beta Club.


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

SnakeEyes said:


> I want (another) Pony.


I miss him a lot.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tenthplanet said:


> The first rule of Beta Club is you don't talk about Beta Club.


How would you know?!?


----------



## ITGrouch (Jan 7, 2015)

CommunityMember said:


> TiVo_Ted was surplussed by the company when the company decided to refocus their efforts elsewhere (along with the preparations for the split/sale/merger). That should likely tell you something about TiVo's priorities IRT their consumer DVR product line(s) going forward (TiVo now primarily cares about the operator market requirements for DVRs and providing customer insights to the operators).
> 
> Ted, on the other hand, was last known to be working for Amazon on the Fire TV team.


Ted was one of the handful of ambassadors that TiVo had over the years. He was the last of that group. As for the "new" UI, it will be interesting to see if any series other than the Edge receiving it.


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> How would you know?!?


Apply Fight Club template then use a probability table, Voila


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

ITGrouch said:


> Ted was one of the handful of ambassadors that TiVo had over the years. He was the last of that group. As for the "new" UI, it will be interesting to see if any series other than the Edge receiving it.


Bolts might get it, they have enough horsepower.


----------



## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

ITGrouch said:


> it will be interesting to see if any series other than the Edge receiving it.


Since we are into random speculation territory......

And another possibility is that any new UI will never be released to the consumer side of the house even if it is clearly in the field today(*), as the updates may be targeted towards the operator(s), from which functionality and UI changes are now being driven (the consumer side may be coming along for the ride, but offering three different UIs on the consumer side (TE3, TE4, and TEnext) might be too big of a effort to support for the consumer TiVo side of the house, where as on the operator side of the house the operators tend for move everyone to be on the same UI, whatever that might be, so the support burdens are lower).

(*) One should remember that in the Before Times TiVo would invite people to their offices to beta test various new (experimental) UIs, often side by side, of which many of those tests never made it outside the building (and when things went really sideways and a box crashed while running the beta, there was someone from TiVo to fix/recover the box as part of the testing). Anything more than story board(s) now require making the software available "in the field" for extended testing, and that is possibly what b10010011 is participating in.


----------



## Balzer (Nov 12, 2006)

Soooo, more random speculation... Could Palms be some sort of Android based UI, perhaps? Going along with the Stream 4k?


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

SnakeEyes said:


> I want (another) Pony.


I still miss TiVoPony.


----------



## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

Balzer said:


> Soooo, more random speculation... Could Palms be some sort of Android based UI, perhaps? Going along with the Stream 4k?


The Android TV variant of the TiVo DVR which is used by some operators cannot be released into the consumer space (if that is what you suggesting might happen), only to operators due to licensing requirements, although testing future operator UIs is certainly a possibility during a beta that typically has various NDAs attached.

As you say, we are deep into the speculation space.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

CommunityMember said:


> The Android TV variant of the TiVo DVR which is used by some operators cannot be released into the consumer space (if that is what you suggesting might happen), only to operators due to licensing requirements, although testing future operator UIs is certainly a possibility during a beta that typically has various NDAs attached.
> 
> As you say, we are deep into the speculation space.


Yes, this.

I hate it when people just say "I wish TiVo would just use Android, it's free!" because they don't know what they're talking about.


----------



## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

I think this new interface will accompany new/refreshed hardware and will probably be pushed to the Edge. Roamio and Bolt are legacy devices so I would be surprised to see them not get Palms. This assumes that Palms is related to DVRs which I don't believe we have confirmation of.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

mrsean said:


> I think this new interface will accompany new/refreshed hardware and will probably be pushed to the Edge. Roamio and Bolt are legacy devices so I would be surprised to see them not get Palms. This assumes that Palms is related to DVRs which I don't believe we have confirmation of.


There is confirmation of nothing.

One person posted on a forum that he's a beta tester of a new UI called "palms" that apparently is DVR software based on the error he was complaining about. That is literally all there is.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Things Tivo has talked about recently:

- voice-activated profiles
- deep discovery that includes things like tone, mood, age of the content, etc.

A new UI would be the logical time to implement them.

I don't know about new hardware this soon, unless it's an updated Edge. Ted said that the mobo was built to accommodate 3.5" drives, and if I'm not mistaken they made it easier to use larger capacity drives in the past year...

But there hasn't been much in the way of cpu advancement on stbs to account for a Series 8.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

You’re taking a giant leap that the voice features necessitate a new UI.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

cwoody222 said:


> You're taking a giant leap that the voice features necessitate a new UI.


Neither needs a new UI; it's just pragmatic timing.


----------



## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

Balzer said:


> Soooo, more random speculation... Could Palms be some sort of Android based UI, perhaps? Going along with the Stream 4k?


This makes sense and could allow integration of apps currently not available in TE4, like HBOMax, SHO, Disney, Acorn, etc.

Might even enable streaming to Stream 4Ks, instead of Minis.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Steve said:


> This makes sense and could allow integration of apps currently not available in TE4, like HBOMax, SHO, Disney, Acorn, etc.
> 
> Might even enable streaming to Stream 4Ks, instead of Minis.


Well, except for this...

TiVo "Palms"


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Balzer said:


> Soooo, more random speculation... Could Palms be some sort of Android based UI, perhaps? Going along with the Stream 4k?





CommunityMember said:


> The Android TV variant of the TiVo DVR which is used by some operators cannot be released into the consumer space (if that is what you suggesting might happen), only to operators due to licensing requirements, although testing future operator UIs is certainly a possibility during a beta that typically has various NDAs attached.


Well, I don't think there's anything stopping TiVo from creating an OTA DVR that is based on Android TV Operator Tier. Imagine if the TiVo Stream 4K had built-in OTA tuners and a hard drive, and if the TiVo Stream app on it had a somewhat different UI that allowed for better DVR management controls akin to the TiVo Edge/Bolt/Roamio. (The app already has a live channel grid guide and some ability to control/integrate the Sling TV cloud DVR.) The existing TiVo Stream 4K device could be used as Mini-like extenders for secondary TVs.

Humax has already produced such an OTA DVR for the UK market, the Humax Aura. At this point, though, a hypothetical TiVo device along these lines might be based on some kind of customized version of the new Google TV UI/system rather than the existing standard Android TV home screen UI. (It remains to be seen how OEMs such as TiVo might be able to customize Google TV for their retail devices. We do know that Google plans to cease licensing the standard Android TV UI to OEMs over the next year or so and replace it with Google TV.)

Assuming one could get it approved by CableLabs (e.g. meet their security and compatibility standards), I guess it's theoretically possible to create a CableCARD retail DVR that runs on Android TV Operator Tier, although no one has ever done it so far and given that the FCC has abandoned the CableCARD mandate, no company is going to spend resources trying to make that happen. CableCARD is just riding on fumes at this point as it slowly fades away.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Series3Sub said:


> Interesting! I can certainly understand why a mass beheading may be necessary. I do respect a company developing technology or devices who need things under wraps. If they spend the time and money to develop it, then they deserve the rewards, and let the competition do their own work.


A codename is relatively meaningless, and at this point, the DVR market is a dying market that's just riding out the demise of pay TV while transitioning to a much smaller, more niche OTA market anyway, so it's not like it was 10 or 15 years ago.


----------



## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Bigg said:


> at this point, the DVR market is a dying market that's just riding out the demise of pay TV while transitioning to a much smaller, more niche OTA market anyway, so it's not like it was 10 or 15 years ago.


I think you have been predicting this for 10 or 15 years. TiVo has never been anything but a niche product. They are simply tweaking that niche.


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

I still think that Tivo should create original content like ED TV or something similar like the Truman Show. They'll be a multibillion company overnight.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

wizwor said:


> I think you have been predicting this for 10 or 15 years. TiVo has never been anything but a niche product. They are simply tweaking that niche.


The OTA DVR world is niche, and always has been. But the mainstay of TiVo's business, the pay TV market, is imploding.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> The OTA DVR world is niche, and always has been. But the mainstay of TiVo's business, the pay TV market, is imploding.


Yeah. And the tough thing for TiVo in the pay TV market is not only are consumers cutting the cord on cable TV, shrinking the overall market, but TiVo has competition as an outsourced solutions provider for those smaller MSOs launching IPTV/OTT cable TV services. The biggest competitor to TiVo's Next-Gen IPTV platform is probably MobiTV, which just recently landed CableOne/Sparklight as a client for their upcoming IPTV service that will replace their traditional QAM cable TV service.


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

We need a new head on this sinking ship.


----------



## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

Timing is everything. Have an option to buy a Roamio Pro with lifetime and probably will pass and wait and see how TE5 goes. I'll upgrade my Bolt just to make the TE3 Gestapo mad.

But really... My guess for TiVo would be any upgrade would be to enhance the ads and/or add the ability to gather data from us. The personal DVR days are numbered......


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cwoody222 said:


> Well, except for this...
> 
> TiVo "Palms"


I read the license a few years back when the Stream 4K was still being speculated about, and IIRC it said that you couldn't release a retail device without Google's permission. Maybe TiVo got their permission?

Alternatively maybe they'll do a Tablo style device where the DVR part is headless and just controlled via an app. Could make the Stream 4K a lot more desirable.


----------



## lhvetinari (Jun 24, 2019)

Dan203 said:


> Alternatively maybe they'll do a Tablo style device where the DVR part is headless and just controlled via an app. Could make the Stream 4K a lot more desirable.


Mavrik Part 2? Would be interesting.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

mrsean said:


> TE4 sucking had nothing to do with it being new. It's about good things that were removed and bad things that were added to the Tivo OS.


What's interesting is that in the Hydra beta process there were huge concerns from the testers about the changes and removal of certain features, the questions about the removals were always ignored by the team running the beta and what's interesting is that when it was finally released it was pretty obvious that all the core decisions and removals were locked in before the beta, we were just operational testers looking for bugs.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

dianebrat said:


> What's interesting is that in the Hydra beta process there were huge concerns from the testers about the changes and removal of certain features, the questions about the removals were always ignored by the team running the beta and what's interesting is that when it was finally released it was pretty obvious that all the core decisions and removals were locked in before the beta, we were just operational testers looking for bugs.


That's always what I'd expect when software reaches the late stage where people outside the company are asked to test.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> That's always what I'd expect when software reaches the late stage where people outside the company are asked to test.


I had been in other tests over the years where opinions were welcomed, but this was tough because the expectations were difficult to ascertain, normally tests tended to give expectations at the beginning.


----------



## edwinyuen (Dec 30, 2010)

dianebrat said:


> I had been in other tests over the years where opinions were welcomed, but this was tough because the expectations were difficult to ascertain, normally tests tended to give expectations at the beginning.


I've been in SW a long time and what I've seen more of a shift away from the Beta testing that you would want (where opinions and experiences help drive the decisions) to the one cwoody222 talks about (where opinions and experiences are used to justify the decisions already made and anything else is just noted but not weighed). This is especially true with any "voices" or public upvote sites. That data is now often used by teams as data points for positive support for their position but rarely for the opposite or for features requests.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Tivo was largely unyielding since the very beginning, a year prior to release. The only substantive change they made in that time was a List View option for My Shows, which was added at the eleventh hour, around the time the early access started.

Tivo pitched to testers that they'd get to discuss and debate with designers and researchers, but that never happened. Instead they had barely any contact at all except from one guy letting them know when new builds were available. No acknowledgement of feedback, or answers to anybody's questions, much less any "discussions" or "debates".

The silence just encouraged toxicity to fester to a point where some people were getting punchy with others, and Tivo didn't do anything about it because they weren't even watching the boards. A pretty ridiculous experience overall. They fell through hard.

To Palms testers, I sympathize but do hope that program isn't as stupid.


----------



## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

edwinyuen said:


> I've been in SW a long time and what I've seen more of a shift away from the Beta testing that you would want (where opinions and experiences help drive the decisions)


Beta testing, in the (original) formal use was never about changes to the product, it was to test already decided upon functionality with real world experience (because in the real world people find the most interesting bugs/features), and get the (majority) of the last major bugs squashed that the internal (typically called alpha) testing of the planned release did not catch.

What some people seem to want is access at the prototyping stages, and to provide feedback before any real decisions have been made. TiVo certainly does do prototype testing, but that is really early (and AFAIK is mostly done in their offices with captured volunteers seeing combinations of storyboarded screens and early alternatives with a one-way glass observation room for the designers to watch people's reactions and struggles). After those evaluations and feedback the UI designs are essentially fixed.

If one wants access to the prototyping stages, I believe TiVo used to have signups for their research group testing (not sure if the signup pages are still accepting volunteers, but at this point I am pretty sure in-person testing is suspended until further notice).


----------



## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

CommunityMember said:


> Beta testing, in the (original) formal use was never about changes to the product, it was to test already decided upon functionality with real world experience (because in the real world people find the most interesting bugs/features), and get the (majority) of the last major bugs squashed that the internal (typically called alpha) testing of the planned release did not catch.


You could be 100% correct, but I was a tester for Microsoft for Windows 95 and they WERE taking our feedback. Things were not set in stone, so it felt like we were doing something. It was dialup at the time, so it was an overnight DL to get the latest beta. Win 98 & M.E. were pretty similar. But, when XP came along, it is exactly as you described. MS did not listen to the testers and their mind was made up to remove the home screen and remove DOS. I quit after that. And of course, they HAD to relent and return to having a Home Screen. So, some companies change the rules or make their own.


----------



## edwinyuen (Dec 30, 2010)

pl1 said:


> You could be 100% correct, but I was a tester for Microsoft for Windows 95 and they WERE taking our feedback. Things were not set in stone, so it felt like we were doing something. It was dialup at the time, so it was an overnight DL to get the latest beta. Win 98 & M.E. were pretty similar. But, when XP came along, it is exactly as you described. MS did not listen to the testers and their mind was made up to remove the home screen and remove DOS. I quit after that. And of course, they HAD to relent and return to having a Home Screen. So, some companies change the rules or make their own.


I've seen both sides (and I did work at MS and ran a Beta program there for my products). The idea of Beta really depended on how extensive your Alpha or non-general audience but still public Beta might be. I've had features and changes made post-Beta/pre-RTM. But most Betas up until about 5 years ago did take a lot of feedback from testers, if not just for the fact that dissatisfied Beta testers like yourself would kill current and future Beta tests. Running Beta tests as just external bug bashing was a quick way to kill that Beta program unless the tests knew upfront that was the only purpose and often came with some sort of compensation.


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

lhvetinari said:


> I'm not sure TE3 will ever "go away", at least for Roamio/Premiere platforms that currently run it (given the age of the Roamio, I can't imagine it'd run Palms very well - it isn't spectacular under Hydra as it is) but aside from the minor fix last month, it's basically frozen in time.
> 
> TiVo_Ted no longer works for TiVo, hasn't since early 2020.
> 
> As an aside, I wonder if the recent decision to stop activating plans on existing Premiere hardware is related to the "new hardware" that's supposedly coming down the pipe. Perhaps Palms becomes the next-gen of TE4, for Roamio and newer, while the existing lifetime fleet of Premieres are allowed to stay as-is, like the existing lifetime S3/HDs.


How sure are we they won't activate Premieres anymore? Has anyone tried getting support to do it regardless?

Hopefully TE3 is here to stay. TE3 and TE4 are like Coke and Pepsi. Forcing one to use the other isn't going to go over well if they tried forcing TE4 and higher on those who strongly prefer TE3.

I wish the company would just focus on providing good guide data. Cartoon Network for the following week is all messed up. I had some shows on another network with SkipMode that skipped the entire episode. Sometimes you see decades old shows listed as new.



NashGuy said:


> Yeah. And the tough thing for TiVo in the pay TV market is not only are consumers cutting the cord on cable TV, shrinking the overall market, but TiVo has competition as an outsourced solutions provider for those smaller MSOs launching IPTV/OTT cable TV services. The biggest competitor to TiVo's Next-Gen IPTV platform is probably MobiTV, which just recently landed CableOne/Sparklight as a client for their upcoming IPTV service that will replace their traditional QAM cable TV service.


Where are you getting your information that they'll be *replacing* QAM with IPTV? Is there an article? As opposed to providing IPTV in addition to QAM services (like Comcast).



tommiet said:


> Timing is everything. Have an option to buy a Roamio Pro with lifetime and probably will pass and wait and see how TE5 goes. I'll upgrade my Bolt just to make the TE3 Gestapo mad.
> 
> But really... My guess for TiVo would be any upgrade would be to enhance the ads and/or add the ability to gather data from us. The personal DVR days are numbered......


You mean how they added pre-roll ads when playing recorded content? TE4 users need to speak up and demand that they don't do such illogical things. The only suitable place for sponsored ads are in the Discovery Bar, and even there is annoying.


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

amazon fire tv offers the ability to stream live channels from apps that offer live channels. There are several apps on the fire tv that offer live channels that integrate into amazon's built in live channel guide. A new app xumo was recently added. Tivo + would have been better if it just listed each individual channel in the guide like all the other cable or OTA channels with the ability to turn off unwanted channels and select channel favorites that appear at the top of the list. There are also other streaming apps that offer free content without paying for a subscription. All of this free content is riddled with commercials that can't be skipped. Perhaps this is Tivos plan.


----------



## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

shwru980r said:


> amazon fire tv offers the ability to stream live channels from apps that offer live channels. There are several apps on the fire tv that offer live channels that integrate into amazon's built in live channel guide. A new app xumo was recently added. Tivo + would have been better if it just listed each individual channel in the guide like all the other cable or OTA channels with the ability to turn off unwanted channels and select channel favorites that appear at the top of the list. There are also other streaming apps that offer free content without paying for a subscription. All of this free content is riddled with commercials that can't be skipped. Perhaps this is Tivos plan.


Channels DVR is great for pausing, recording and commercial skipping those live channels. I never liked watching Pluto but now that it can be loaded into Channels I watch it all the time. The TV Everywhere integration also works well.


----------



## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

TKnight206 said:


> Where are you getting your information that they'll be *replacing* QAM with IPTV? Is there an article? As opposed to providing IPTV in addition to QAM services (like Comcast).


Probably from an article such as this one: Cable One sets launch of IP-powered pay-TV service | Light Reading

CableOne is not the first provider to exit the classic linear QAM TV service (for reasons mentioned in that article). And there have been other articles, usually about small regional "mom and pop" providers, that have decided to drop TV service of any form from their offerings and just point customers towards the various OTT alternatives.

TV service (of any kind) produces a lot of revenue, but not a lot of profit, for most providers (a lot of the money coming in goes out to the content providers). And only the largest providers can negotiate contracts that even keep the margins acceptable. At this point, the primary reason to continue to provide TV service for the largest providers is not profit but to keep Wall Street happy in regards to revenue streams (which turns into lower borrowing costs, and higher stock prices, neither of which any CEO wants to put in jeopardy).

It should be noted that Verizon had previously toyed with (and was even about to pull the trigger on, then backed away from) a pure IPTV service rather than linear QAM, although still under their banner and content contracts, but at this point appears to instead just be letting TV service fade away (cord shavers, alternative OTTs and streaming services, etc.). If you sign up for new FiOS HSI service and ask about TV the CSRs were even known to be mentioning (pushing?) YTTV as an option (although last I knew they would still accept new FiOS TV service, it would appear it is not really in Verizon's long term plans).

Comcast may be doing a slow walk on their migration, but make no mistake, they are both adding new IPTV (only) content, and *removing* existing linear QAM channels that is now being made available only on IPTV. (although still under their content contracts and service offering). As one of the largest providers, they presumably still have content contracts that are (at least marginally) profitable so are likely to continue to offer TV services of some form(*). I don't believe anyone thinks Comcast's entire linear QAM service is going to go away quickly(**), but if you want to view all the channels you are paying for today you need to be using a Comcast IPTV capable platform (either their X1 branded devices, or a device that can use their streaming app).

(*) There are some hints that Comcast may be considering entering the OTT market and providing TV services even out of their footprint. Between their Xfinity Stream app, and their "Flex" streaming boxes (both already used by their existing in-footprint customers), they have most of the technology pieces available to make such a service available should they wish to compete with the YTTV/Hulu/Sling/etc., and one presumes that should they wish to offer such a service they will be able to negotiate the content contracts (typically the local OTAs are the most annoying because it is market by market, but they have been doing such for decades, so know the process and people and companies).

(**) There is not only a fair amount of equipment that is linear QAM only that needs to be replaced, there is also HSI capacity in some areas that will need to be improved for a pure IPTV-only offering across the entire footprint. Neither are insurmountable, and all have been in, and continue to be in, various stages of implementations.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

CommunityMember said:


> Comcast may be doing a slow walk on their migration, but make no mistake, they are both adding new IPTV (only) content, and *removing* existing linear QAM channels that is now being made available only on IPTV.


As an additional measure, Comcast periodically moves popular cable channels up to the higher-cost tier of service or into an add-on pack (e.g., TCM). As it happens, Cartoon Network, which your OP apparently is concerned about, is one of those channels. As of next month it will only be available via the top-tier Preferred TV service tier here in the Big South Region (and presumably throughout the Central Division).


----------



## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

chiguy50 said:


> As an additional measure, Comcast periodically moves popular cable channels up to the higher-cost tier of service or into an add-on pack (e.g., TCM). As it happens, Cartoon Network, which your OP apparently is concerned about, is one of those channels. As of next month it will only be available via the top-tier Preferred TV service tier here in the Big South Region (and presumably throughout the Central Division).


AT&T is still trying to figure out their strategy to actually make money on the Time Warner purchase, and has apparently increased carriage prices. In the olden days, passing through the increased fees was a no-brainer for a TV provider, but the increases have passed the tipping point for consumers, and therefore TV providers. As I recall the increases resulted in the AT&T/WarnerMedia properties being dropped by FuboTV. To slow tier price increases (since the TV provider pays by the numbers of customers of the tier) moving content that has lower viewership up a tier is sometimes easier than managing to negotiate a lower price (as lower price may have other implications due to various other 3rd party contract issues (resulting in less revenue here to receive far more revenue somewhere else; while I understand the business reasons, I do not agree with the entire non-transparent business arrangements that result in these approaches that manipulate and distort the market. But then again, I am sure my opinion is worth about zero to the people making a fair amount of money under the current practices)).

Of course, AT&T plans to offer some additional streaming services this year (a la Comcast/NBC's Peacock) which might end up being a cheaper way to get at least some of the AT&T/WarnerMedia's properties than having to move up a tier of TV service (it will, of course, depend on the details), but it will almost certainly not be a native TiVo app.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

CommunityMember said:


> TV service (of any kind) produces a lot of revenue, but not a lot of profit, for most providers (a lot of the money coming in goes out to the content providers). And only the largest providers can negotiate contracts that even keep the margins acceptable. At this point, the primary reason to continue to provide TV service for the largest providers is not profit but to keep Wall Street happy in regards to revenue streams (which turns into lower borrowing costs, and higher stock prices, neither of which any CEO wants to put in jeopardy).


It seems that Comcast and other MSOs have, in the last year or two, finally begun to move in baby steps towards caring about profits, not revenue. They've been bundling TV services basically at-cost for several years in order to increase revenue and sub numbers for Wall Street, which doesn't really make fundamental business sense, except that for Comcast, they own NBCU, so some of those carriage fees that make TV a roughly break-even business end up in NBCU's pocket, which is why telcos and MSOs should never have been allowed to own content companies (other than maybe a regional/local news network) in the first place. Were Comcast forced to divest NBCU, I think they'd probably drop most of their promo/bundle packages, and just let many of their TV subscribers cancel, knowing that they are a monopoly in most areas for broadband, where they have over 90% margins and are effectively able to charge four times over for the same service.



> It should be noted that Verizon had previously toyed with (and was even about to pull the trigger on, then backed away from) a pure IPTV service rather than linear QAM, although still under their banner and content contracts, but at this point appears to instead just be letting TV service fade away (cord shavers, alternative OTTs and streaming services, etc.). If you sign up for new FiOS HSI service and ask about TV the CSRs were even known to be mentioning (pushing?) YTTV as an option (although last I knew they would still accept new FiOS TV service, it would appear it is not really in Verizon's long term plans).


Verizon is interesting, as they are only one of couple of mid-sized MVPDs, similar in size to Cox. While Cox is doubling and tripling down on overpriced legacy TV services, Verizon is not, and is letting them fade. Part of the reason is probably because Verizon is a competitive provider for 99% of the homes that they cover, and there is probably somewhat of a self-selection bias of older legacy pay TV users on cable, versus cord cutters and more tech savvy people on FiOS.



> I don't believe anyone thinks Comcast's entire linear QAM service is going to go away quickly(**), but if you want to view all the channels you are paying for today you need to be using a Comcast IPTV capable platform (either their X1 branded devices, or a device that can use their streaming app).


That depends on the tech. I don't know what the implications are of having linear QAM on an N+0 rPHY system. From a pure bandwidth perspective, they are limited by the upstream, not the downstream, and TV just isn't using that much with their insane levels of MPEG-4 compression. If anything, they might retire MPEG-2 SD versions of channels, and move SD-only channels to MPEG-4 if they really needed the bandwidth. I believe most/all of their VOD is IP-based now, as are a lot of the HD sports packages and other niche/PPV content.



> (**) There is not only a fair amount of equipment that is linear QAM only that needs to be replaced, there is also HSI capacity in some areas that will need to be improved for a pure IPTV-only offering across the entire footprint. Neither are insurmountable, and all have been in, and continue to be in, various stages of implementations.


The big issue is figuring out IP multicast for the more popular channels. The strategy of using IPTV for the niche content and lesser-watched channels and QAM for the most popular channels gives them the best of both worlds for now. A lot of equipment that they have out in the field is really old, even the first couple of generations of X1 boxes have pretty archaic hardware in them that prevents any sort of efficient IP multicast system without at least adding a gateway to the network, if not actually replacing the whole box.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> That depends on the tech. I don't know what the implications are of having linear QAM on an N+0 rPHY system. From a pure bandwidth perspective, they are limited by the upstream, not the downstream, and TV just isn't using that much with their insane levels of MPEG-4 compression. If anything, they might retire MPEG-2 SD versions of channels, and move SD-only channels to MPEG-4 if they really needed the bandwidth. I believe most/all of their VOD is IP-based now, as are a lot of the HD sports packages and other niche/PPV content.


Yeah, I think Comcast's big move away from QAM will coincide with some type of network upgrade, whether that's N+0 rPHY or something else that coincides with DOCSIS 4.0. But at some point, they're going to have a fully IP network with no legacy QAM TV.

In the interim, they might take a half-step, not just to free up some bandwidth but also to spread out the transition of the remaining portion of their TV base (20%?) who are still on QAM-only hardware. I'm sure they want to spread out the hardware upgrade costs. Maybe they make all the channels exclusive to the Preferred package IPTV-only. Or maybe they eliminate all HD channels on QAM, leaving that system as MPEG-2 SD-only, which would force folks who care about HD to swap out their hardware. And then a couple years later, what's left of the QAM channels shut down and it's all IPTV.



Bigg said:


> The big issue is figuring out IP multicast for the more popular channels. The strategy of using IPTV for the niche content and lesser-watched channels and QAM for the most popular channels gives them the best of both worlds for now. A lot of equipment that they have out in the field is really old, even the first couple of generations of X1 boxes have pretty archaic hardware in them that prevents any sort of efficient IP multicast system without at least adding a gateway to the network, if not actually replacing the whole box.


All of the info I've seen all along indicates that Comcast's plans for IP multicast relies on the customer using a Comcast gateway. So I expect that's how it will be implemented. Those customers who take only TV service but not broadband will have to be given a locked-down gateway. But then they've been doing that very thing for years for customers who take VoIP service but not broadband, like some elderly family members of mine. (They also take TV from Comcast and are on old QAM-only STBs. But I don't think there's any reason why those couldn't immediately be swapped out for standalone Xi5 or Xi6 IPTV boxes since they already have a Comcast gateway in place.)

Comcast is probably OK with a certain percentage of their IPTV customers using their own non-multicast-capable retail cable modems and routers. In fact, they just added the Xfinity Stream app to their Flex box, allowing those broadband-only customers to easily add cable TV packages. And they don't require them to use a Comcast gateway. But once they eliminate lots, or all, QAM channels, they'll get serious about provisioning multicast and so will want to make sure that a substantial percentage of IPTV customers take Comcast's gateway. At some point, they may even require it and just bundle the cost in with the base package price.


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

TKnight206 said:


> How sure are we they won't activate Premieres anymore? Has anyone tried getting support to do it regardless?
> 
> Hopefully TE3 is here to stay. TE3 and TE4 are like Coke and Pepsi. Forcing one to use the other isn't going to go over well if they tried forcing TE4 and higher on those who strongly prefer TE3.
> 
> ...


TE3 will reach end the EOL or end of life cycle similar to older Microsoft OS. You may be able to use it but expect no software patches or support similar to Windows XP..you'll be on your own. At some point TE4 could also be replaced by a TE5. Keep your software updated, eventually all software reaches EOL.


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

CommunityMember said:


> Probably from an article such as this one: Cable One sets launch of IP-powered pay-TV service | Light Reading
> 
> Comcast may be doing a slow walk on their migration, but make no mistake, they are both adding new IPTV (only) content, and *removing* existing linear QAM channels that is now being made available only on IPTV. (although still under their content contracts and service offering). As one of the largest providers, they presumably still have content contracts that are (at least marginally) profitable so are likely to continue to offer TV services of some form(*). I don't believe anyone thinks Comcast's entire linear QAM service is going to go away quickly(**), but if you want to view all the channels you are paying for today you need to be using a Comcast IPTV capable platform (either their X1 branded devices, or a device that can use their streaming app).
> 
> ...


I haven't noticed a large amount of QAM being removed from Comcast. I think some foreign language stations went IP only. I think some previously SD-only channels are having HD IP equivalents added without the SD channels removed. Nationwide, has Comcast moved any English language channels from QAM to IP only that I've missed or forgotten about?

I wonder how many Cable One/Sparklight customers have TiVos that won't work if they truly end up getting rid of QAM. (Here's hoping they'd offer a limited QAM selection at minimum. No SD-duplicate channels and perhaps at a reduced mpeg4 bit-rate. If they were to offer 100 QAM channels, that'd be ~1.34375 terabits/hour of bandwidth. About ~1.72GB/HD-hour times 100 channels times 8bits/byte.) (391.3956 megabits/second)
Cable TV Equipment | Sparklight



tenthplanet said:


> TE3 will reach end the EOL or end of life cycle similar to older Microsoft OS. You may be able to use it but expect no software patches or support similar to Windows XP..you'll be on your own. At some point TE4 could also be replaced by a TE5. Keep your software updated, eventually all software reaches EOL.


The issue with XP is security. Probably less so with TE3.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> In the interim, they might take a half-step, not just to free up some bandwidth but also to spread out the transition of the remaining portion of their TV base (20%?) who are still on QAM-only hardware. I'm sure they want to spread out the hardware upgrade costs. Maybe they make all the channels exclusive to the Preferred package IPTV-only. Or maybe they eliminate all HD channels on QAM, leaving that system as MPEG-2 SD-only, which would force folks who care about HD to swap out their hardware. And then a couple years later, what's left of the QAM channels shut down and it's all IPTV.


I think they're just waiting for the market to continue to decline so they have to swap out less hardware. If anything, they'd get rid of MPEG-2 entirely. The MPEG-2 only boxes are easily 15+ years old on average at this point, I doubt that they really want to support all that junk indefinitely. If anything, I'd think they would have all IP-capable equipment out in the field long before they actually switch everything to IP-only.



> All of the info I've seen all along indicates that Comcast's plans for IP multicast relies on the customer using a Comcast gateway.


If they can get MoCA to work, the gateway method will work.



> Comcast is probably OK with a certain percentage of their IPTV customers using their own non-multicast-capable retail cable modems and routers. In fact, they just added the Xfinity Stream app to their Flex box, allowing those broadband-only customers to easily add cable TV packages. And they don't require them to use a Comcast gateway. But once they eliminate lots, or all, QAM channels, they'll get serious about provisioning multicast and so will want to make sure that a substantial percentage of IPTV customers take Comcast's gateway. At some point, they may even require it and just bundle the cost in with the base package price.


I don't see why they couldn't allow people to have their own internet modem AND a locked-down gateway for TV and phone services? They could even allow a gateway, modem, and eMTA all separate if people wanted it. I'd suspect that the vast majority of people who want their own modem are internet-only anyway, so it's probably a very small market for that.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> I think they're just waiting for the market to continue to decline so they have to swap out less hardware. If anything, they'd get rid of MPEG-2 entirely. The MPEG-2 only boxes are easily 15+ years old on average at this point, I doubt that they really want to support all that junk indefinitely. If anything, I'd think they would have all IP-capable equipment out in the field long before they actually switch everything to IP-only.


No, if they were to wait until normal attrition/box churn resulted in having all IP-capable equipment out in the field before shutting down QAM and going IPTV-only, they might be waiting until 2030. There's a small percentage of those old STBs with no DVR hard drive in them that will run on for years and there's a certain breed of customer that doesn't like change and wants to stick with the remote control, UI, channel numbers, etc. that they know.

So at some point, if they really do want to shut down QAM and have an all-IP network, they'll have to draw a line in the sand and send out notices to customers to switch out their hardware, just like they did with the MPEG-4 switchover for HD a few years back.

As I've thought about it more, the simplest way to spread out the equipment costs of an IPTV switchover would probably be to do it all in one fell swoop but in separate geographic regions one at a time. So rather than making big chunks of channels nationwide go IPTV-only, while leaving other channels on QAM, as an intermediate step before then taking the remaining channels IPTV-only too (as I had proposed above), it would probably just make more sense to do a full IPTV-switchover in a single test market (probably either Chicago, Nashville or Atlanta since Comcast seems to like rolling new tech out in those markets first).

So all customers in that market would be notified that as of a certain date, the only ways to continue accessing Xfinity TV service would be through X1 devices and the Xfinity Stream app on the range of devices that it's available on. And TV-only customers, when swapping out their old TV boxes/adapters, would be given a locked-down wifi gateway in addition to wireless Xi5/6 boxes or whatever new cheap IPTV box Comcast comes up with. (The software on those gateways and client boxes might automatically find each other and connect without the customer having to do anything. Just connect the gateway to the coax and power, then connect the client box to the TV and power.)

And once they've completed that in the initial test market and improved the process, they'd just repeat it for an entire region. Then the next, then the next, until after a couple years the whole national footprint is converted.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> I don't see why they couldn't allow people to have their own internet modem AND a locked-down gateway for TV and phone services? They could even allow a gateway, modem, and eMTA all separate if people wanted it. I'd suspect that the vast majority of people who want their own modem are internet-only anyway, so it's probably a very small market for that.


Yeah, I'd say you're right that the types who insist on using their own modem are probably internet-only customers (i.e. those who are very tech-savvy and/or trying to save money). So it probably wouldn't be difficult to ensure that the great majority of their IPTV customers were using a Comcast gateway.


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

NashGuy said:


> No, if they were to wait until normal attrition/box churn resulted in having all IP-capable equipment out in the field before shutting down QAM and going IPTV-only, they might be waiting until 2030. There's a small percentage of those old STBs with no DVR hard drive in them that will run on for years and *there's a certain breed of customer that doesn't like change and wants to stick with the remote control, UI, channel numbers, etc. that they know.*


What I bolded in your post, cannot be underestimated in my opinion. Even if they're a small number, they may be stubborn. Think of it like the Windows XP-forever people.

I really, really, really hope that they decide to keep QAM in some form, even if it's in a limited HD-only overly-compressed capacity. I do wonder how many would be so angry at losing their TiVo due to lack of QAM, that they'd just end up going the satellite route to spite the cable company.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TKnight206 said:


> What I bolded in your post, cannot be underestimated in my opinion. Even if they're a small number, they may be stubborn. Think of it like the Windows XP-forever people.
> 
> I really, really, really hope that they decide to keep QAM in some form, even if it's in a limited HD-only overly-compressed capacity. I do wonder how many would be so angry at losing their TiVo due to lack of QAM, that they'd just end up going the satellite route to spite the cable company.


Oh, I imagine a significant percentage of TiVo owners on Comcast would just drop that TV service completely and switch to a different option if it became incompatible with TiVo. But TiVo owners probably account for only 1-1.5% of Comcast's TV accounts, so I don't think they really care.

The kind of customer I more had in mind when I mentioned customers who don't like change and want to stick with the same equipment forever aren't TiVo owners but rather those folks who aren't very tech-savvy, who dread (rather than welcome) adopting any new kind of gadget. And/or those customers who just don't think or care all that much about cable TV even though they do want it to be there for them at times. I'd say that describes the great majority of those folks still using whatever old pre-X1 box or adapter Comcast handed them years ago. It's not that they love the thing but rather it's what they know and, as long as it ain't broke, why fix it?


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep just look at all the folks here who refuse to consider getting sticks to replace Tivo's crappy apps because they don't want to switch inputs.  They don't realize how bad the experience is compared to anything more modern because what they have works in it's own crappy way.

Change is hard for everyone. I honestly don't know what I'll do when Comcast rolls out IP to replace QAM, but it will definitely have to have a DVR service. So something like YTTV or AT&T TV, I'm not going back to being forced to watch commercials.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

slowbiscuit said:


> Change is hard for everyone. I honestly don't know what I'll do when Comcast rolls out IP to replace QAM, but it will definitely have to have a DVR service. So something like YTTV or AT&T TV, I'm not going back to being forced to watch commercials.


Well, at the rate Comcast is going, you may not have to worry about that until 2025! Five years ago, I was thinking it would've happened by now. And it obviously hasn't (although they've made a few baby steps in that direction).

So who knows what kind of awesome options you might have by the time Comcast pulls the plug on your TiVo?


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

NashGuy said:


> Oh, I imagine a significant percentage of TiVo owners on Comcast would just drop that TV service completely and switch to a different option if it became incompatible with TiVo. But TiVo owners probably account for only 1-1.5% of Comcast's TV accounts, so I don't think they really care.
> 
> The kind of customer I more had in mind when I mentioned customers who don't like change and want to stick with the same equipment forever aren't TiVo owners but rather those folks who aren't very tech-savvy, who dread (rather than welcome) adopting any new kind of gadget. And/or those customers who just don't think or care all that much about cable TV even though they do want it to be there for them at times. I'd say that describes the great majority of those folks still using whatever old pre-X1 box or adapter Comcast handed them years ago. It's not that they love the thing but rather it's what they know and, as long as it ain't broke, why fix it?


Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I liked my old Comcast box. The blue-type interface. I miss so many things that TiVo simply lacks.
To name a few...
1. Programming my platinum remote so the A button toggles captions. None of this "hold for two seconds" thing that TiVo forces me to do, or hitting multiple buttons otherwise. Why can't TiVo just let us enable an option in User Preferences so it acts as a toggle rather than having to hold the B button for two seconds?!
2. Being able to mute the DVR. As someone who uses headphones, I don't want to either take off my headphones or lower the audio switch/dial on my headphones. I simply want to hit the Mute button on the remote to temporarily mute the audio for any reason whatsoever.
3. Being able to use the DVR for On Demand, but not only that, being able to jump 15 and 30 minutes forward and backward in On Demand. (TiVo was nice in being able to skip eight seconds back in On Demand. I give them that.) So, if I had to watch a show that wouldn't let me fast-forward, and I need to get to minute 45 to see something that I missed for whatever reason in the recorded version (maybe a glitch in the broadcast), I don't want to wait 45 minutes plus commercials to see what I missed! I want to skip in 15 minute intervals and let it go from there. Something I could do with my Comcast DVR, but not my TiVo when it had On Demand.

My use of Comcast DVR refers to the old version, not the X1.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep just look at all the folks here who refuse to consider getting sticks to replace Tivo's crappy apps because they don't want to switch inputs.  They don't realize how bad the experience is compared to anything more modern because what they have works in it's own crappy way.


Ha, this was me! Using our TiVo for streaming. Mainly because I didn't want to have to teach my wife how to change inputs.

Then I bought Rokus for my TVs being fed by DirecTV (different location). Holy Cow, fast loading apps, easy controls, responsive. And lots of apps. And it turns out it wasn't that hard to change inputs. Can even do it with the TiVo remote.

Now I am adding Rokus to all my TVs. Up to five of them so far!


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TKnight206 said:


> Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I liked my old Comcast box.


I think it's safe to say that you're in the minority here.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> No, if they were to wait until normal attrition/box churn resulted in having all IP-capable equipment out in the field before shutting down QAM and going IPTV-only, they might be waiting until 2030.


Any upgrades would require some number of customers to be upgraded to modern equipment. It's a matter of how many. The longer they wait, the smaller that portion becomes, as some customers go internet-only, while others go to X1.



> So at some point, if they really do want to shut down QAM and have an all-IP network, they'll have to draw a line in the sand and send out notices to customers to switch out their hardware, just like they did with the MPEG-4 switchover for HD a few years back.


Correct. But the longer the wait, the smaller that task is. In a few years, it becomes a relatively minor task to pick up a handful of stragglers.



> As I've thought about it more, the simplest way to spread out the equipment costs of an IPTV switchover would probably be to do it all in one fell swoop but in separate geographic regions one at a time.


I don't think the equipment cost is that big of a deal at this point. They've gotten the costs way down, especially with the new all-IP boxes. It's more a matter of how to handle bandwidth and multicast during the transition, and whether the architecture forces them to go all-IP. In the meantime, moving over a few oddball channels at a time reclaims bandwidth, forces a few more customers here and there over to IP, and allows them to deliver more sports packages and additional channel tonnage without using any more QAM bandwidth. My sense is that they already have more downstream bandwidth compared to upstream for internet customers, so using some for IPTV is relatively inexpensive.



> And TV-only customers, when swapping out their old TV boxes/adapters, would be given a locked-down wifi gateway in addition to wireless Xi5/6 boxes or whatever new cheap IPTV box Comcast comes up with. (The software on those gateways and client boxes might automatically find each other and connect without the customer having to do anything. Just connect the gateway to the coax and power, then connect the client box to the TV and power.)


The other issue is getting customers who have their own modems set up with gateways, and dealing with local wiring issues that cause problems with MoCA. I don't know what the XG1v4 boxes have for internal modems, if they are D3.1 capable on their own, or if they would still need a gateway.



> And once they've completed that in the initial test market and improved the process, they'd just repeat it for an entire region. Then the next, then the next, until after a couple years the whole national footprint is converted.


And since they're Comcast, announce it, do a market or two, stop for a while, fall behind schedule by a few years, get about 85% done and then stop for a few more years, launch more upgrades in other markets, and then finally maybe finish 98% of their territory and still have some oddball analog system running somewhere....



NashGuy said:


> Yeah, I'd say you're right that the types who insist on using their own modem are probably internet-only customers (i.e. those who are very tech-savvy and/or trying to save money). So it probably wouldn't be difficult to ensure that the great majority of their IPTV customers were using a Comcast gateway.


I don't see any reason why they couldn't have a locked-down gateway for people who want to use their own modem for internet. As long as signal strengths are OK, you could have an IPTV gateways, D3.1 modem for HSI, and an eMTA for voice.



TKnight206 said:


> What I bolded in your post, cannot be underestimated in my opinion. Even if they're a small number, they may be stubborn. Think of it like the Windows XP-forever people.


There will always be some laggards in any technology transition. The technology must move on.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> Correct. But the longer the wait, the smaller that task is. In a few years, it becomes a relatively minor task to pick up a handful of stragglers.
> 
> I don't think the equipment cost is that big of a deal at this point.


If the equipment cost is already no big deal, then why wait a few more years until "cable TV collapses" (as you keep insisting is going to happen real soon now) so that there will be even less equipment to replace? I still think the cost of equipment replacement is a consideration (remember that it will involve issuing not just new STBs but in the case of TV-only customers, also a gateway), but not the main one.

As I've said before, I suspect that the move to an all-IP network will coincide with some kind of bigger architectural upgrade to the network, maybe the rollout of some aspect of DOCSIS 4.0. That upgrade will be the determining factor in when they fully do away with QAM TV. But they'll want to have the equipment swap-outs done before then and perhaps they'll want the cost of that spread out over time. As for multicast, I think Comcast may already be using it to some extent now. My understanding is that it was possible on DOCSIS 1.1, assuming you had routers/clients in place that could access it.



Bigg said:


> The other issue is getting customers who have their own modems set up with gateways, and dealing with local wiring issues that cause problems with MoCA. I don't know what the XG1v4 boxes have for internal modems, if they are D3.1 capable on their own, or if they would still need a gateway.


Not sure but I don't think the modem is the critical factor in being multicast-capable, I think it's the router. Although even if the router is not (as in the case where the customer uses their own router), it still may be possible for the STB/client device to access multicast if it's configured to do so. Not 100% sure on that though. I know that if a Comcast IPTV customer has an XFi Gateway, then even the Xfinity Stream app on Rokus, Fire TVs, etc. can be served by multicast streams, because the router is doing a multicast-to-unicast conversion and serving unicast streams to those clients (which is all they ever get). But X1 boxes may not have to rely on that function -- they may be able to natively access multicast streams on Comcast's network regardless of the router being used.


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

When cable goes down, recordings on DVRs tend to work. Not necessarily so with the X1.


----------



## bobfrank (Mar 17, 2005)

TKnight206 said:


> Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I liked my old Comcast box. The blue-type interface. I miss so many things that TiVo simply lacks.
> To name a few...
> 1. Programming my platinum remote so the A button toggles captions. None of this "hold for two seconds" thing that TiVo forces me to do, or hitting multiple buttons otherwise. Why can't TiVo just let us enable an option in User Preferences so it acts as a toggle rather than having to hold the B button for two seconds?!
> 2. Being able to mute the DVR. As someone who uses headphones, I don't want to either take off my headphones or lower the audio switch/dial on my headphones. I simply want to hit the Mute button on the remote to temporarily mute the audio for any reason whatsoever.
> ...


There is a mute button on the Tivo remote.


----------



## lhvetinari (Jun 24, 2019)

Bigg said:


> Any upgrades would require some number of customers to be upgraded to modern equipment. It's a matter of how many. The longer they wait, the smaller that portion becomes, as some customers go internet-only, while others go to X1.
> 
> Correct. But the longer the wait, the smaller that task is. In a few years, it becomes a relatively minor task to pick up a handful of stragglers.
> 
> ...


Per FCC filings with press excerpts, the XG1v4 has an integrated "DOCSIS 2.0+" modem integrated.

XG1V4 Set-top box Test Report ARRIS Group, . (fccid.io)


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> If the equipment cost is already no big deal, then why wait a few more years until "cable TV collapses" (as you keep insisting is going to happen real soon now) so that there will be even less equipment to replace? I still think the cost of equipment replacement is a consideration (remember that it will involve issuing not just new STBs but in the case of TV-only customers, also a gateway), but not the main one.


I'd bet it's more architecture driven. But Comcast doesn't need yet another reason not to upgrade things. Cable TV is already imploding, the trend has sped up significantly this year. MSOs just aren't showing the really spectacular losses since they are recapturing some lost DBS customers to partially offset their own losses.



> As I've said before, I suspect that the move to an all-IP network will coincide with some kind of bigger architectural upgrade to the network, maybe the rollout of some aspect of DOCSIS 4.0.


Yeah, I'd agree. They have little incentive to upgrade when they're upstream limited and have plenty of downstream bandwidth.



> As for multicast, I think Comcast may already be using it to some extent now. My understanding is that it was possible on DOCSIS 1.1, assuming you had routers/clients in place that could access it.


They may be for a few channels, but it's not very practical on an 8 channel DOCSIS group to do much beyond that.



> Not sure but I don't think the modem is the critical factor in being multicast-capable, I think it's the router. Although even if the router is not (as in the case where the customer uses their own router), it still may be possible for the STB/client device to access multicast if it's configured to do so. Not 100% sure on that though. I know that if a Comcast IPTV customer has an XFi Gateway, then even the Xfinity Stream app on Rokus, Fire TVs, etc. can be served by multicast streams, because the router is doing a multicast-to-unicast conversion and serving unicast streams to those clients (which is all they ever get). But X1 boxes may not have to rely on that function -- they may be able to natively access multicast streams on Comcast's network regardless of the router being used.


People with their own routers have no connection between X1 and their network. And Comcast has no control over the router. It's not a hard problem to solve. The locked down TV-only gateway could be used by people who want TV and their own modem. The X1 boxes may be able to access multicast directly, but it wouldn't work for large numbers of TV channels, as many of them only have 8 channel DOCSIS modems in them, so they would have to rely on a DOCSIS 3.1 gateway for any sort of large scale IPTV system. It's possible that they put a few sports channels on IP multicast, and all the boxes have to have that DOCSIS channel to access the IP multicast streams.



lhvetinari said:


> Per FCC filings with press excerpts, the XG1v4 has an integrated "DOCSIS 2.0+" modem integrated.


That's a real gem right there.


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

bobfrank said:


> There is a mute button on the Tivo remote.


Mute button does not mute the DVR like my legacy Comcast DVR would do. Mute button is intended to be programmed for a TV. My TiVo is hooked up to a 23 inch monitor.


----------



## bobfrank (Mar 17, 2005)

TKnight206 said:


> Mute button does not mute the DVR like my legacy Comcast DVR would do. Mute button is intended to be programmed for a TV. My TiVo is hooked up to a 23 inch monitor.


Never mind.


----------



## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

TKnight206 said:


> Mute button does not mute the DVR like my legacy Comcast DVR would do. Mute button is intended to be programmed for a TV. My TiVo is hooked up to a 23 inch monitor.


What are your headphones connected to? Can't you program the mute button to control whatever that device is?


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

NotVeryWitty said:


> What are your headphones connected to? Can't you program the mute button to control whatever that device is?


Nope. My 23 inch monitor has a headphone jack in back. While I can change the audio using buttons on the monitor, that's awkward, and isn't the same as muting it.


----------



## Balzer (Nov 12, 2006)

I was thinking about this "Palms" thing again this morning... and did a quick search... There are Palm Trees at the Google California Campus in Mountain View.... Hmmm.... 

Google Mountain View California Campus With Palm Trees High-Res Stock Photo - Getty Images

And then there is this confusing video, which talks about watching recorded shows... but also accessing the Google Play store.


----------



## KevTech (Apr 15, 2014)

Balzer said:


> And then there is this confusing video, which talks about watching recorded shows... but also accessing the Google Play store.


Video does not work.


----------



## lhvetinari (Jun 24, 2019)

KevTech said:


> Video does not work.
> 
> View attachment 58331


They must have pulled it, it was working a few hours ago when I saw it. Interesting.


----------



## Ryan12341 (Nov 5, 2019)

What was on the video, shoot i wish i could see. I know Tivo is def expanding their third party development (for cable providers) with the 4k Stream. But did this video look like it was expanding making a new DVR at home?


----------



## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

Balzer said:


> I was thinking about this "Palms" thing again this morning... and did a quick search... There are Palm Trees at the Google California Campus in Mountain View.... Hmmm....
> 
> Google Mountain View California Campus With Palm Trees High-Res Stock Photo - Getty Images
> 
> And then there is this confusing video, which talks about watching recorded shows... but also accessing the Google Play store.


Who posted the video on Youtube? Was it on Tivo's Youtube channel?


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

It was on the TiVo channel.

It was video for one of their cable company partners’ IPTV boxes running their custom AndroidTV build.

Similar videos have been seen before.

One of the screens shown even had a placeholder “CableCo11” label visible.


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

cwoody222 said:


> It was on the TiVo channel.
> 
> It was video for one of their cable company partners' IPTV boxes running their custom AndroidTV build.
> 
> ...


Are we assuming that Palms will be something for cable providers to put on their boxes?


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

TKnight206 said:


> Are we assuming that Palms will be something for cable providers to put on their boxes?


No. I'm saying the video had nothing to do with anything new.

I'm not assuming anything about "Palms". Literally all we know is some random guy in a forum said it was a new UI.

He could be a moron for all we know and just testing an iterative software update. (ie: not testing a brand new design for the UI, that is all COMPLETE speculation)

I personally don't believe a whole new UI is coming.

If anything, this YouTube video proves TE4 is here to stay, or else why would they be producing new Welcome videos for their cable co partner customers featuring it?


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

cwoody222 said:


> I personally don't believe a whole new UI is coming.
> 
> If anything, this YouTube video proves TE4 is here to stay, or else why would they be producing new Welcome videos for their cable co partner customers featuring it?


Yeah, the Hydra/TE4 UI was a major project for them and it's not that old. And consider the fact that the small-to-mid-sized cable and IPTV providers that TiVo targets as customers are increasingly de-emphasizing traditional pay TV and focusing on their much more profitable broadband, to the extent that some of them are now actively pushing vMVPDs like YouTube TV, Sling and Philo instead of their own cable TV service.

Frankly, I suspect that TE4 will be the last UI design that TiVo ever has, at least for traditional cable/IPTV boxes. (They may well overhaul the UI in the TiVo Stream app for retail streaming devices like the TiVo Stream 4K.) At this point in the game, I don't think the expense of developing, testing and deploying another major UI design would be justified by whatever additional revenue it might attract.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, the Hydra/TE4 UI was a major project for them and it's not that old. And consider the fact that the small-to-mid-sized cable and IPTV providers that TiVo targets as customers are increasingly de-emphasizing traditional pay TV and focusing on their much more profitable broadband, to the extent that some of them are now actively pushing vMVPDs like YouTube TV, Sling and Philo instead of their own cable TV service.
> 
> Frankly, I suspect that TE4 will be the last UI design that TiVo ever has, at least for traditional cable/IPTV boxes. (They may well overhaul the UI in the TiVo Stream app for retail streaming devices like the TiVo Stream 4K.) At this point in the game, I don't think the expense of developing, testing and deploying another major UI design would be justified by whatever additional revenue it might attract.


I could see a Tablo like headless box for OTA being a possibility. If it was cheap and well integrated into the TiVo Stream 4K it could be a decent seller since local channels still have limited availability on the skinny bundle type services.

Bit that wouldn't require a new UI. Or any UI.


----------



## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

Dan203 said:


> I could see a Tablo like headless box for OTA being a possibility


Android TV (the Google platform, not some name that some manufacturers slap onto their boxes and sell on places like Amazon) already has an integrated DVR in the Live Channels app (although you will likely need to add external storage to your Android TV device to be able to record anything substantial). When I last looked at it a few years ago it did support at least some network and USB based tuners (under a "Beta" warning for using external tuners rather than using vendor supplied apps, as it had to try to match guide data). So there is also that approach for a DVR.


----------



## lhvetinari (Jun 24, 2019)

Dan203 said:


> I could see a Tablo like headless box for OTA being a possibility. If it was cheap and well integrated into the TiVo Stream 4K it could be a decent seller since local channels still have limited availability on the skinny bundle type services.
> 
> Bit that wouldn't require a new UI. Or any UI.





CommunityMember said:


> Android TV (the Google platform, not some name that some manufacturers slap onto their boxes and sell on places like Amazon) already has an integrated DVR in the Live Channels app (although you will likely need to add external storage to your Android TV device to be able to record anything substantial). When I last looked at it a few years ago it did support at least some network and USB based tuners (under a "Beta" warning for using external tuners rather than using vendor supplied apps, as it had to try to match guide data). So there is also that approach for a DVR.


Smells like Mantis 2.0 - maybe with some local storage and the Stream 4K, it could actually work this time. Small box with a hard drive to record, and TS4K/Android TV app to watch. Now, if TiVo's record of streaming shows from their legacy DVRs wasn't so crappy...


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

The other issue here is that even if TiVo wants to do an ATSC 3.0 DVR, are they going to be able to move fast enough to market? With companies like Tablo and SiliconDust/Channels out there, they may just not be able to do it.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

lhvetinari said:


> Smells like Mantis 2.0 - maybe with some local storage and the Stream 4K, it could actually work this time. Small box with a hard drive to record, and TS4K/Android TV app to watch. Now, if TiVo's record of streaming shows from their legacy DVRs wasn't so crappy...


Yeah, I've wondered if they might try to go down the network-connected OTA DVR road again. Mavrik was a bust. In part, I think, because (for some reason) they wanted it to be able to store recordings in the cloud, which adds all sorts of technical and legal issues.

If TiVo did so, they'd likely use their TiVo Stream app (currently exclusive to the TiVo Stream 4K) as the front-end for the device, but they'd probably also want to make that app available for more devices too (Roku, Fire TV) to increase the addressable market they could sell the DVR to. Or maybe they'd just bundle in one TiVo Stream 4K device and remote with the headless DVR.

Hopefully such a hypothetical TiVo headless DVR would send out the original MPEG-2 streams to all devices that could handle it. I know that the processor in the TiVo Stream 4K is made to handle those native OTA broadcast streams, including 1080i. And I believe that at least some models of Roku and Fire TV devices (and definitely the Apple TV 4K) can also both decode MPEG-2 and deinterlace 1080i and 480i. So then it's just a matter of having an ethernet or fast enough wifi connection between the router and both the DVR and the client devices. But a decent signal on the 5 GHz band of an 802.11 AC wifi network is easily able to handle the original HD broadcast streams, which don't typically exceed 15 Mb/sec (and are often more like 7 to 10 Mb/sec). My Pixel 4a can display live local 1080i channels without a hiccup as I walk around my house. (The stream comes from my HDHomeRun tuner which is connected to the router via ethernet.)

In those cases where the client device couldn't handle the native MPEG-2 stream, or where the network connection to it isn't fast enough, then the DVR would have to transcode to a lower bitrate H.264 stream on the fly. That's what the old TiVo Stream device does. And some upper-tier TiVo DVRs have that transcoding capability built-in. But I personally wouldn't want to rely on transcoding because it increases the time it takes to change channels and it reduces the picture and sound quality at least a bit.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> And I believe that at least some models of Roku and Fire TV devices (and definitely the Apple TV 4K) can also both decode MPEG-2 and deinterlace 1080i and 480i. So then it's just a matter of having an ethernet or fast enough wifi connection between the router and both the DVR and the client devices. But a decent signal on the 5 GHz band of an 802.11 AC wifi network is easily able to handle the original HD broadcast streams, which don't typically exceed 15 Mb/sec (and are often more like 7 to 10 Mb/sec).


I don't think Roku can do MPEG-2, but regardless, for FireTV, ATV, and other devices that can, storing in MPEG-2 and transcoding in real time for playback on devices that can't is the way to go.


----------



## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

Bigg said:


> I don't think Roku can do MPEG-2, but regardless, for FireTV, ATV, and other devices that can, storing in MPEG-2 and transcoding in real time for playback on devices that can't is the way to go.


The latest versions of Roku from the last few years can do mpeg 2. It was added in OS 9, once the patent expired.


----------



## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

Did we ever figure out what the heck is "Palms"?


----------



## celtic pride (Nov 8, 2005)

I also need to know about ''palms'' I got until the 15th to decide on buying tivo edge for cable! My wife wont let me buy it though because she worries tivo will go out of business and i will be stuck with a door stop. I'm thinking of switching to AT&T TV ,or going back to directv. (I'm currently with frontier fios).


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

celtic pride said:


> I also need to know about ''palms'' I got until the 15th to decide on buying tivo edge for cable! My wife wont let me buy it though because she worries tivo will go out of business and i will be stuck with a door stop. I'm thinking of switching to AT&T TV ,or going back to directv. (I'm currently with frontier fios).


Don't expect to learn anything before the 15th.

Frankly this entire thing was kicked off by a single Reddit user's passing reference to a beta test so I wouldn't go basing purchasing decisions off of it.

Tivo has been in business over 20 years. There is nothing to indicate they will be out of business or not providing service to existing boxes in the near future.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

celtic pride said:


> I got until the 15th to decide on buying tivo edge for cable!


Do you already have a TiVo and are just looking to upgrade? If so, what model do you have? 
I expect that many would suggest just buying a Lifetime'd Roamio Plus or Pro off eBay for your DVR needs, and use a streaming box for most (if not all) your streaming needs.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

celtic pride said:


> I also need to know about ''palms'' I got until the 15th to decide on buying tivo edge for cable! My wife wont let me buy it though because she worries tivo will go out of business and i will be stuck with a door stop. I'm thinking of switching to AT&T TV ,or going back to directv. (I'm currently with frontier fios).


Why not buy a used 3TB Roamio Pro (or Plus and upgrade) that already has "all-in" service for under $300?
Far better buy for a far better unit IMNSHO

Or even a used 4 Tuner Bolt that can do cable or OTA?


----------



## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

mrsean said:


> Did we ever figure out what the heck is "Palms"?


No. And we might never find out.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mrsean said:


> Did we ever figure out what the heck is "Palms"?


Apparently some new TiVo UI based on what little I've gleaned from posts such as the following:

Re: Dreaded Tivo V58 Error - Comcast XFINITY TV | DSLReports Forums

But it seems like they just launched the completely new Hydra UI not that long ago. So maybe Palms is just a modest refresh of Hydra. Didn't they do a few slight refreshes of the classic TiVo UI that pre-dated Hydra?


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

This entire speculation thread is SOLELY based on this one persons statement which was:

“I am part of the Tivo "Palms" beta program. (Palms is the new UI)”.

That’s IT!


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

celtic pride said:


> I also need to know about ''palms'' I got until the 15th to decide on buying tivo edge for cable! My wife wont let me buy it though because she worries tivo will go out of business and i will be stuck with a door stop. I'm thinking of switching to AT&T TV ,or going back to directv. (I'm currently with frontier fios).


I wouldn't worry about Palms. But I would be concerned about the long-term viability of using a CableCARD with Frontier now that the FCC no longer requires them to support it. Heck, I'd be concerned about how much longer Frontier (which just exited bankruptcy and will now focus on expanding fiber broadband) might continue to even offer their own cable TV service. I could easily see them going the way of fellow telco CenturyLink, which stopped selling their own cable TV service (Prism TV) a few years ago and has apparently completely shut it down in at least some areas. (It was based on the same system as AT&T's Uverse TV, which AT&T no longer sells now either.)

Instead, CenturyLink just resells other companies' services: AT&T TV, DirecTV, DISH, and various SVODs like Hulu, Disney+, HBO Max, etc. Home TV services | CenturyLink

From what I've gathered on this forum in the past, Frontier has never been super-great about offering and supporting CableCARDs. The future viability of TiVos with that provider is probably even more tenuous now. Something to think about before plunking down a lot of money on new TiVo hardware and lifetime service, if that's something you're considering.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

cwoody222 said:


> This entire speculation thread is SOLELY based on this one persons statement which was:
> 
> "I am part of the Tivo "Palms" beta program. (Palms is the new UI)".
> 
> That's IT!


Ha, didn't realize that was the post cited at the start of this thread. So yeah, if that's the *only* bit of "evidence" that Palms exists, then it's quite possible that it doesn't. Given everything we know about what's been happening at Xperi/TiVo, I'd be surprised if they were investing resources in developing a whole new TiVo DVR UI.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

NashGuy said:


> Ha, didn't realize that was the post cited at the start of this thread. So yeah, if that's the *only* bit of "evidence" that Palms exists, then it's quite possible that it doesn't. Given everything we know about what's been happening at Xperi/TiVo, I'd be surprised if they were investing resources in developing a whole new TiVo DVR UI.


Yep!

The beta test could be for something completely minor and some random Reddit guy just called it a "UI" and people took that and ran.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> This entire speculation thread is SOLELY based on this one persons statement which was:
> 
> "I am part of the Tivo "Palms" beta program. (Palms is the new UI)".
> 
> That's IT!


Have we gone sufficiently Maple Street?


----------



## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

Well. Tivo also claimed to be launching new products this year so....


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

A commenter on Dave Zatz's site mentioned Palms&#8230;

"I hated the Palms menu version, it lost so many of the TiVo capabilities that the longtime TiVo owners love. I tried to like the Palms, but just couldn't put up with it; then it took 3 months of emails and phone calls with customer service to be able to push a rollback software version to my TiVo so that I could even further rollback my TiVo to the previous version (Hydra)&#8230; and then, I had to reset my TiVo Roamio so that I could rollback to the Quattro version."


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

krkaufman said:


> Have we gone sufficiently Maple Street?


Or X-Files..
the twenty-fourth episode and the third season finale of The _X_-_Files_. ... Mulder searches through the house and after rewording '_PALM_' to 'LAMP' ...
Tivo.. Lamp ?


----------



## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

It's nice to hear that there is indeed a new UI called Palms. Apparently, it's for Bolt and Edge (maybe Roamio too) but if it's also for these new mystery products that Tivo was bragging out earlier this year? I would think if they were launching something new in Sept/Oct, we would know about it by now.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

mrsean said:


> It's nice to hear that there is indeed a new UI called Palms. Apparently, it's for Bolt and Edge (maybe Roamio too) but if it's also for these new mystery products that Tivo was bragging out earlier this year? I would think if they were launching something new in Sept/Oct, we would know about it by now.


Three posts above I posted info from a person who was testing it on a Roamio.

When was TiVo bragging about new products? What did they say?

I don't recall them saying anything except for talking about the Stream 4k.


----------



## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

cwoody222 said:


> Three posts above I posted info from a person who was testing it on a Roamio.
> 
> When was TiVo bragging about new products? What did they say?
> 
> I don't recall them saying anything except for talking about the Stream 4k.


It was a one-line statement at the end of an article from earlier this year. I cannot find it anymore.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

mrsean said:


> It was a one-line statement at the end of an article from earlier this year. I cannot find it anymore.


New TiVo DVR UI (PALMS) : Tivo (reddit.com)


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

This?
""We believe that with our state-of-the-art voice authentication technology combined with TiVo's expertise in the OTT video space, we'll be able to unlock new experiences for consumers across the globe&#8230; and we're just getting started," said Vijay Balasubramaniyan, Pindrop's CEO in a statement."
from TiVo will learn your voice, and what you like to watch

That's not a comment from TiVo. Nor would I call it "bragging" about new TiVo "mystery products".

That's why I'm still shocked that Palms is real (or potentially real) since they haven't mentioned anything for retail consumers besides the Stream 4K in quite awhile.

I'm not a doom-sayer who thinks TiVo is pulling out of the retail DVR market (although they're reducing their reliance on it) but I just don't see why they'd spend time, money and resources on ANOTHER new UI. But who knows, maybe it'll make sense if/when it arrives.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

"The new feature isn't launching into existing TiVo products just yet, and instead will be woven into new devices that the company says will launch in the coming months."

Could be DVR, could be not, but would make sense if Palms is a thing that's happening anyway.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> "The new feature isn't launching into existing TiVo products just yet, and instead will be woven into new devices that the company says will launch in the coming months."


* Statement made at least as far back as Jan 29th. So "Coming Months" is now a bit questionable.


----------



## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

cwoody222 said:


> A commenter on Dave Zatz's site mentioned Palms&#8230;
> 
> "I hated the Palms menu version, it lost so many of the TiVo capabilities that the longtime TiVo owners love. I tried to like the Palms, but just couldn't put up with it; then it took 3 months of emails and phone calls with customer service to be able to push a rollback software version to my TiVo so that I could even further rollback my TiVo to the previous version (Hydra)&#8230; and then, I had to reset my TiVo Roamio so that I could rollback to the Quattro version."
> 
> View attachment 61697


Thanks for the s screenshot of that comment. I couldn't find this comment over there. Looks like they deleted it?

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

spiderpumpkin said:


> Thanks for the s screenshot of that comment. I couldn't find this comment over there. Looks like they deleted it?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


It's still there: https://zatznotfunny.com/2021-08/tivo-best-buy/


----------



## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

I would absolutely love it if TiVo were to port their software to an Online DVR. That would make a lot of sense considering the direction things are going so that means it'll probably never happen. But wouldn't it be great to have a TiVo DVR on your Apple TV? Come on TiVo!


----------



## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

bareyb said:


> ... wouldn't it be great to have a TiVo DVR on your Apple TV?


TiVo decided in early 2020, reportedly due to limitations in their own hardware, to not release the various TiVo apps (essentially an app based TiVo Mini) that had been in development for at least some TV centric platforms (Apple TV, Android TV, Fire TV, etc.) and demoed to the public in early 2019 at CES.


----------



## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

CommunityMember said:


> TiVo decided in early 2020, reportedly due to limitations in their own hardware, to not release the various TiVo apps (essentially an app based TiVo Mini) that had been in development for at least some TV centric platforms (Apple TV, Android TV, Fire TV, etc.) and demoed to the public in early *1999* at CES.


1999?


----------



## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

pfiagra said:


> 1999?


Quite the typo! Corrected.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bareyb said:


> I would absolutely love it if TiVo were to port their software to an Online DVR. That would make a lot of sense considering the direction things are going so that means it'll probably never happen. But wouldn't it be great to have a TiVo DVR on your Apple TV? Come on TiVo!


While I too would like to see this, I don't think it's going to happen. The existing OTT services all use their own apps for DVR functionality, so there is no place for a 3rd party app just for the DVR. And I actually talked to a higher up at TiVo a few years back and asked him why they didn't just do their own OTT service, like a SlingTV, and he said they had tried and could not get the licensing deals to make it happen.

I think going forward we're going to see them shift to OTA only DVRs with an app based UI similar to Tablo or Channels. That's the only way they survive in the modern world. And even then they're likely to be a shell of their former selves given how far behind they are.


----------



## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> While I too would like to see this, I don't think it's going to happen. The existing OTT services all use their own apps for DVR functionality, so there is no place for a 3rd party app just for the DVR. And I actually talked to a higher up at TiVo a few years back and asked him why they didn't just do their own OTT service, like a SlingTV, and he said they had tried and could not get the licensing deals to make it happen.
> 
> I think going forward we're going to see them shift to OTA only DVRs with an app based UI similar to Tablo or Channels. That's the only way they survive in the modern world. And even then they're likely to be a shell of their former selves given how far behind they are.


That makes me sad.... but I think you're probably right. 

I just picked up a cable card from Xfinity for a new lifetimed Bolt I got from WeaKnees. I was lucky to get the cable card too. She said they only had two cable cards left. The guy entered the number of the cable card in the system and he said "looks like it stuck, you're ready to go". So we'll see if that's actually the case. If I can get it paired the first try that will be a first.


----------



## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> And I actually talked to a higher up at TiVo a few years back and asked him why they didn't just do their own OTT service, like a SlingTV, and he said they had tried and could not get the licensing deals to make it happen.


Well they own MobiTV now. Maybe it will happen...


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

socrplyr said:


> Well they own MobiTV now. Maybe it will happen...


Isn't Mobi just the technology that lets a company roll out an IPTV solution? Mobi doesn't actually have any relationships with content providers (ie: networks) nor facilitates those relationships, does it?


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

cwoody222 said:


> Isn't Mobi just the technology that lets a company roll out an IPTV solution? Mobi doesn't actually have any relationships with content providers (ie: networks) nor facilitates those relationships, does it?


IIRC, Mobi wasn't involved in negotiating any of the carriage contracts between an IPTV operator and they channels they carried. It was up to the operator to have those rights in place. And then Mobi would either operate the entire service from their servers (i.e. completely outsourced managed solution) or put their software in place on the operator's servers (more akin to the type of solution TiVo has been offering to IPTV operators the past few years). And then, in either case, they would operator-brand their apps for Fire TV, Apple TV, etc. for customers to use. Not sure, but I don't even think Mobi offered a customized Android TV box for operators to optionally give their customers, the way that TiVo does.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> I think going forward we're going to see them shift to OTA only DVRs with an app based UI similar to Tablo or Channels. That's the only way they survive in the modern world. And even then they're likely to be a shell of their former selves given how far behind they are.


IF (big if) TiVo remains in the retail DVR space, I agree that the only path forward that probably makes sense will be OTA DVRs which, let's face it, is a pretty niche market. (Maybe it'll see a bit of uptick if/when Hulu loses current shows from NBC and Fox.)

But I'm honestly not sure how they could out-compete Tablo at this point in terms of an easy-to-use headless DVR. Only way, I think, would be if it tightly integrated in with an app, such as their TiVo Stream app on the TS4K, that also combines and two-way tracks content from all the most popular SVODs like Netflix, Prime Video, HBO Max, Disney+, etc. I don't *think* such an app is even possible on Roku, Apple TV or Fire TV, as those companies want to control any cross-app content-integration UI/UX on their devices. Google allows it on Android TV -- that's essentially what TiVo is doing now with the TiVo Stream app on the TS4K, minus the OTA DVR part. But as Google shifts their retail device ecosystem over from Android TV to Google TV, I'm not sure if even that would be possible on a next-gen TS4K should TiVo make one. Perhaps TiVo might work with Google to get OTA recordings and live content from a pared-down TiVo app integrated into the native Google TV home screen UI alongside streaming content. But then, given Google's interest in selling their own YouTube TV service, they may give free OTA TV the cold shoulder.

It always comes back to the core problem that TiVo doesn't have their own (decent) streaming app platform/OS.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> IF (big if) TiVo remains in the retail DVR space, I agree that the only path forward that probably makes sense will be OTA DVRs which, let's face it, is a pretty niche market. (Maybe it'll see a bit of uptick if/when Hulu loses current shows from NBC and Fox.)
> 
> But I'm honestly not sure how they could out-compete Tablo at this point in terms of an easy-to-use headless DVR. Only way, I think, would be if it tightly integrated in with an app, such as their TiVo Stream app on the TS4K, that also combines and two-way tracks content from all the most popular SVODs like Netflix, Prime Video, HBO Max, Disney+, etc. I don't *think* such an app is even possible on Roku, Apple TV or Fire TV, as those companies want to control any cross-app content-integration UI/UX on their devices. Google allows it on Android TV -- that's essentially what TiVo is doing now with the TiVo Stream app on the TS4K, minus the OTA DVR part. But as Google shifts their retail device ecosystem over from Android TV to Google TV, I'm not sure if even that would be possible on a next-gen TS4K should TiVo make one. Perhaps TiVo might work with Google to get OTA recordings and live content from a pared-down TiVo app integrated into the native Google TV home screen UI alongside streaming content. But then, given Google's interest in selling their own YouTube TV service, they may give free OTA TV the cold shoulder.
> 
> It always comes back to the core problem that TiVo doesn't have their own (decent) streaming app platform/OS.


I think this is how it might work. If they could integrate an OTA DVR for locals, with a cloud DVR like Sling, or something else, and all the shows on the various streaming platforms into a single UI like the one on the Stream 4K then I think they'd have a pretty compelling product. It would essentially realize their OnePass dream from years ago.

Looking at the Stream 4K now they're almost there. They have data for every major service except Apple TV+ (I hear that might be coming) and they can integrate Sling DVR recordings right into the UI. The only thing they don't have is the OTA DVR for the local channels. If they could add that it would be my go to platform of choice. The Stream 4K app UI isn't the best, but it's no worse than any other app and if it could integrate everything you watch into one UI then it would be fantastic.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> I think this is how it might work. If they could integrate an OTA DVR for locals, with a cloud DVR like Sling, or something else, and all the shows on the various streaming platforms into a single UI like the one on the Stream 4K then I think they'd have a pretty compelling product. It would essentially realize their OnePass dream from years ago.
> 
> Looking at the Stream 4K now they're almost there. They have data for every major service except Apple TV+ (I hear that might be coming) and they can integrate Sling DVR recordings right into the UI. The only thing they don't have is the OTA DVR for the local channels. If they could add that it would be my go to platform of choice. The Stream 4K app UI isn't the best, but it's no worse than any other app and if it could integrate everything you watch into one UI then it would be fantastic.


Ah, yes, I remember the unfulfilled dream of OnePass from when I dumped cable years ago and bought a Roamio OTA to hopefully use for all my viewing. Never quite panned out.

Anyhow, yeah, a solution like you're talking about would be cool. But would the headless DVR *only* work with the TS4K as the client viewer device? Or would TiVo release the TiVo Stream app for use on any Android TV device, such as the Shield TV and Sony smart TVs? It would definitely limit the market appeal of the device if it couldn't also be used with the more popular Roku, Fire TV and Apple TV streamers. Although that would mean developing a version of the TiVo Stream app for those platforms -- presumably without the OnePass-like integration of content from third-party SVOD apps, with would mean losing a lot of what would differentiate the experience vs. Tablo or Channels.

Honestly, the only way I can see TiVo, at this point, sinking the development resources into creating client apps for Roku, Fire TV and Apple TV (along with iOS and Android mobile) would be if most of that work could be repurposed for their IPTV partners. But of course, those pay TV services use the traditional Hydra UI on their client devices. (TiVo also announced client apps would become available for their IPTV partners too, but I don't know if that ever materialized.)

Perhaps this new Palms project is a unified UI and code base that can be largely replicated across whatever operator-supplied IPTV and retail OTT devices/apps they plan to support.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

NashGuy said:


> But of course, those pay TV services use the traditional Hydra UI on their client devices.


You say that like it's a bad thing?

You do realize the Hydra UI that the operators use is not at all the same *code base* that the retail devices use?

The operator devices run Hydra based on Android TV.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

cwoody222 said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing?
> 
> You do realize the Hydra UI that the operators use is not at all the same *code base* that the retail devices use?
> 
> The operator devices run Hydra based on Android TV.


I didn't imply Hydra was a bad thing at all. That's you reading tone into my words that isn't there. The point I was building up to is that TiVo uses different UIs for IPTV operators vs. the TiVo Stream app on the TS4K. Perhaps Palms is an attempt to unify the two. ("The new feature isn't launching into existing TiVo products just yet, and instead will be woven into new devices that the company says will launch in the coming months.")

As for Hydra on their IPTV boxes vs. Hydra on their retail DVRs (e.g. Edge, Bolt, etc.), there may be some code shared between the two. The IPTV boxes run atop Android TV (which based on the Linux kernel) while the retail DVRs run on some customized version of Linux, I think.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> Ah, yes, I remember the unfulfilled dream of OnePass from when I dumped cable years ago and bought a Roamio OTA to hopefully use for all my viewing. Never quite panned out.
> 
> Anyhow, yeah, a solution like you're talking about would be cool. But would the headless DVR *only* work with the TS4K as the client viewer device? Or would TiVo release the TiVo Stream app for use on any Android TV device, such as the Shield TV and Sony smart TVs? It would definitely limit the market appeal of the device if it couldn't also be used with the more popular Roku, Fire TV and Apple TV streamers. Although that would mean developing a version of the TiVo Stream app for those platforms -- presumably without the OnePass-like integration of content from third-party SVOD apps, with would mean losing a lot of what would differentiate the experience vs. Tablo or Channels.
> 
> ...


I think they're most likely to integrate something like this with the Stream 4K, or it's successor, not make an app that will run on any device. There are too many issues supporting the different devices, platforms and remotes. Having a bespoke device like the Stream 4K gives them control over the buttons and the complete experience. Plus like you said Android is the only platform that will allow them to truly do the OnePass thing.

But is that really a bad thing? The Stream 4K is only $30 and is a pretty capable little streaming stick with a nice remote. Would it be so horrible to have to use it instead of your Roku or Fire TV?


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

NashGuy said:


> I didn't imply Hydra was a bad thing at all. That's you reading tone into my words that isn't there. The point I was building up to is that TiVo uses different UIs for IPTV operators vs. the TiVo Stream app on the TS4K. Perhaps Palms is an attempt to unify the two. ("The new feature isn't launching into existing TiVo products just yet, and instead will be woven into new devices that the company says will launch in the coming months.")
> 
> As for Hydra on their IPTV boxes vs. Hydra on their retail DVRs (e.g. Edge, Bolt, etc.), there may be some code shared between the two. The IPTV boxes run atop Android TV (which based on the Linux kernel) while the retail DVRs run on some customized version of Linux, I think.


Apologizes, then.

I think the reason they do use different UIs for IPTV vs Stream 4K is out if necessity (what Google allows) rather than a chosen path.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> But is that really a bad thing? The Stream 4K is only $30 and is a pretty capable little streaming stick with a nice remote. Would it be so horrible to have to use it instead of your Roku or Fire TV?


No, not necessarily. But it kinda makes you wonder why they'd make it a headless DVR to start with. Why not build an Android TV-based DVR (kinda like the Humax Aura over in the UK) that basically has the same UI as the TS4K, with the TiVo Stream app pre-installed? It would have an HDMI out and connect directly to your main TV. It would have an internal hard drive, an input for your OTA antenna, an ethernet port and wifi 6. If you wanted to extend the experience to secondary TVs, instead of TiVo Minis, you'd just buy the TS4K for each TV at $30 a pop. If the network connection could handle it, the original MPEG-2 transport stream would be spooled out from the device to those TS4K clients. Otherwise, the DVR would have to transcode to H.264 or maybe even H.265. No transcoding would ever be necessary for viewing on the directly-connected primary TV.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> No, not necessarily. But it kinda makes you wonder why they'd make it a headless DVR to start with. Why not build an Android TV-based DVR (kinda like the Humax Aura over in the UK) that basically has the same UI as the TS4K, with the TiVo Stream app pre-installed? It would have an HDMI out and connect directly to your main TV. It would have an internal hard drive, an input for your OTA antenna, an ethernet port and wifi 6. If you wanted to extend the experience to secondary TVs, instead of TiVo Minis, you'd just buy the TS4K for each TV at $30 a pop. If the network connection could handle it, the original MPEG-2 transport stream would be spooled out from the device to those TS4K clients. Otherwise, the DVR would have to transcode to H.264 or maybe even H.265. No transcoding would ever be necessary for viewing on the directly-connected primary TV.


Easy of development. Right now they basically already have all the parts to make this work. They have the DVR software running on Linux and a robust streaming API that they use for the Mini. They just have to create a Android based UI to encompass it all.

Writing a whole new DVR from scratch on Android would be a much bigger undertaking.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

cwoody222 said:


> Apologizes, then.
> 
> I think the reason they do use different UIs for IPTV vs Stream 4K is out if necessity (what Google allows) rather than a chosen path.


Well, I don't think Google would allow TiVo to take over the home screen on the TS4K like they do on their Android TV Operator Tier boxes for IPTV partners, which don't even feature the standard Android TV home screen at all. But AFAIK, there's no reason that the UI *inside the TiVo Stream app* on the TS4K couldn't be more Hydra-like. I think it was a deliberate choice to make the UI in the Stream app be more graphical/title art-driven (like all the other streaming UIs everyone is used to), with less of an emphasis on linear channels and DVR recordings. Meanwhile, Hydra moved a bit in the graphical direction but they didn't want to take it *too* far away from the text-oriented UIs that TiVo DVRs have always used.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Easy of development. Right now they basically already have all the parts to make this work. They have the DVR software running on Linux and a robust streaming API that they use for the Mini. They just have to create a Android based UI to encompass it all.
> 
> Writing a whole new DVR from scratch on Android would be a much bigger undertaking.


Maybe, but I kinda doubt it. A lot of the work, in terms of the UI and controls, would be done in Android TV anyhow. And Android TV has built-in APIs for linear channels, OTA tuners, even DVR controls. You're really just talking about adding the mechanics of interacting with the tuners and hard drive under Android TV rather than in a separate headless Linux device. I don't think it would make a ton of difference in terms of additional dev work but, IMO, it would result in more marketable product versus a headless DVR that could only work with TS4K clients.


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

If TiVo had a lot of money would it be out of the realm of possibility to create original content like the big streaming companies?


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ufo4sale said:


> If TiVo had a lot of money would it be out of the realm of possibility to create original content like the big streaming companies?


Nothing's beyond the realm of possibility with enough money. That said, I can't imagine Xperi/TiVo ever deciding it makes sense for them to create their own original content. Assuming they continue to operate their TiVo+ set of free, ad-supported streaming channels, I doubt they ever include any original content. AFAIK, TiVo+ doesn't even feature any exclusive channels, just the same free third-party channels that appear in other apps like Pluto TV, Xumo, etc.


----------



## WorldBandRadio (Dec 20, 2010)

spiderpumpkin said:


> Can't wait to hear what this is new UI is all about?


It can't be any worse than that disaster that came out when Margret was the Chief Design Officer.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

WorldBandRadio said:


> It can't be any worse than that disaster that came out when Margret was the Chief Design Officer.


Hey now! We will tolerate no disparaging comments on our dearly departed TivoMargret (aka Margret Schmidt).

She was one of TiVo's most valued assets IMHO and a cherished participant in this community.


----------



## WorldBandRadio (Dec 20, 2010)

chiguy50 said:


> She was one of TiVo's most valued assets IMHO and a cherished participant in this community.


I agree 100%.

Her participation here was most excellent and very beneficial to this community.

However, I do have issues with the design of the UI (what's it called? hydra?) and some other technical issues that seem to have occurred on her watch.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Hydra was/is a disaster. However I'm not sure that was Margret's fault. I'm pretty sure she got promoted to "Chief Design Officer" after the Hydra project was underway. 

Whoever's fault it was deserves a kick in the butt though. TiVo went from having a fantastic UI that was enjoyable to use (it won Emmy's!) to one that's barely usable and completely generic.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I use hydra every single day. It’s totally usable.

I don’t miss TE3 in the slightest. It was great in the 00’s but it’s 2021 and it looks like it’s straight out of 2005.

Hydra is much more suited for large wide screens and to work side by side with modern streaming services’ UIs.

People may have their preference but calling it “barely usable” is a giant overreach.


----------



## MrDell (Jul 8, 2012)

cwoody222 said:


> I use hydra every single day. It's totally usable.


I have to agree,&#8230; I really don't mind hydra at all. It does have a more "modern " look and for the most part, I do most of of my show schedules on my iPad&#8230; I find the TiVo app very easy to navigate.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

WorldBandRadio said:


> I agree 100%.
> 
> Her participation here was most excellent and very beneficial to this community.
> 
> However, I do have issues with the design of the UI (what's it called? hydra?) and some other technical issues that seem to have occurred on her watch.


Bolt design? Total disaster. Have no idea if that was her though.


----------



## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

cwoody222 said:


> I use hydra every single day. It's totally usable.
> 
> I don't miss TE3 in the slightest. It was great in the 00's but it's 2021 and it looks like it's straight out of 2005.
> 
> ...


I couldn't care less EXCEPT for the guide. That makes TE4 bad for me. I recognize people use the guide differently and for some it might be fine, but for me it's a non-starter. Stopped using streaming apps on the TiVo long ago (they suck) so I can't comment on that.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cwoody222 said:


> I use hydra every single day. It's totally usable.
> 
> I don't miss TE3 in the slightest. It was great in the 00's but it's 2021 and it looks like it's straight out of 2005.
> 
> ...


You can get use to anything, that doesn't make it good. They could have modernized the basic aesthetics without changing the flow of the UI so drastically. The transition from the old S2/S3 UI to TE3 was a big jump too, but they did it in a way that was familiar and intuitive. TE4 looks like someone just said "how can we make the TiVo UI look more like Netflix?".


----------



## tim_m (Mar 8, 2017)

cwoody222 said:


> I use hydra every single day. It's totally usable.
> 
> I don't miss TE3 in the slightest. It was great in the 00's but it's 2021 and it looks like it's straight out of 2005.
> 
> ...


Agreed, i couldn't imagine using TE3 on my 50" 4k tv. I would look horrid.


----------



## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

I've used Hydra a few times but always switch back because Encore has live guide.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

kdmorse said:


> Anonymous major leakage will get *everyone* kicked out. They've had to completely drain the pool twice in the lifetime of the program...


On the flip side, I can tell you that TiVo (and testers themselves) more than once blamed a beta group as the source of a leak ... that didn't actually originate from testers.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

CommunityMember said:


> TiVo decided in early 2020, *reportedly due to limitations in their own hardware*, to not release the various TiVo apps (essentially an app based TiVo Mini) that had been in development for at least some TV centric platforms (Apple TV, Android TV, Fire TV, etc.) and demoed to the public in early 2019 at CES.


TiVo largely killed that initiative because they put the vast majority of their consumer eggs in the TiVo Stream 4K basket (and don't have the manpower or skill to multitask further imo). So more of a product marketing decision than a technological one.



Dan203 said:


> Hydra was/is a disaster. However I'm not sure that was Margret's fault.


Mostly hers. Which led to a civil war and ultimately her departure. They got away from what they did best and had locked down portions of the design before really doing the usability research. Anyhow, sounds like she's building up quite the team (many ex-TiVo) at Roku these days. :thumbsup:


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

tim_m said:


> Agreed, i couldn't imagine using TE3 on my 50" 4k tv. I would look horrid.


I use TE3 daily on my 65" 4K OLED and it looks perfectly fine, clearly YMMV.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

tim_m said:


> Agreed, i couldn't imagine using TE3 on my 50" 4k tv. I would look horrid.


*shrug* Looks great on my 55" OLED. I don't need graphics, a list of shows is fine. If they had only added the option to remove the useless discovery bar it'd be perfect.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

davezatz said:


> TiVo largely killed that initiative because they put the vast majority of their consumer eggs in the TiVo Stream 4K basket (and don't have the manpower or skill to multitask further imo). So more of a product marketing decision than a technological one.


Yeah there was no hardware limitation on the server (DVR) side for any Tivo client app, because it already worked on Android and iOS. They could've easily made the Stream 4k an almost-Mini just with the app alone, but didn't want to.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

IMHO the only way TiVo survives going forward is to release their own OTT service, ala SlingTV, and integrate it directly into the Stream 4K. Without that they fade into irrelevance. 

Maybe they eventually release a cheap OTA only DVR, ala Tablo, but I'm not sure if that's a big enough market to even bother with.


----------



## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

They could easily come up with a solution to partner with cable operators to license their IPTV streams.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Dan203 said:


> TE4 looks like someone just said "how can we make the TiVo UI look more like Netflix?".


Having your UI resemble something that hundreds of millions use daily ain't a bad thing.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cwoody222 said:


> Having your UI resemble something that hundreds of millions use daily ain't a bad thing.


It's the wrong UI for the job.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

davezatz said:


> Mostly hers. Which led to a civil war and ultimately her departure. They got away from what they did best and had locked down portions of the design before really doing the usability research. Anyhow, sounds like she's building up quite the team (many ex-TiVo) at Roku these days. :thumbsup:


This is my recollection as well. They had a vision and ran with it, making only one major change during the year of user testing. They were going to make My Shows use a weird, hybrid vertical/horizontal navigation that was unequivocally hated. "Classic" List View was added back in at the 11th hour as the dominant format, and the weird hybrid became options that was removed entirely a year and a half later.

They had the Vox hardware launch coming, so I guess they were forced to run with the the poorly adapted UI they had. Core stability put usability on the backburner.

I don't know what the civil war was regarding, but I don't think Hydra is something anybody is *fully* happy with. I'm bracing for Palms... We'll find out fairly quickly where usability landed on their priority list this time around.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> This is my recollection as well. They had a vision and ran with it, making only one major change during the year of user testing. They were going to make My Shows use a weird, hybrid vertical/horizontal navigation that was unequivocally hated. "Classic" List View was added back in at the 11th hour as the dominant format, and the weird hybrid became options that was removed entirely a year and a half later.


Yah, a point worth emphasizing is that most of us who *really* hate Hydra, do so because of how horrid it was early on. It *did* get better. (I still don't like it, but it's not the unusable hot mess that was sent to the public in the first release). But we're not likely to give it a chance again on our primary boxes because you can't roll it back (without wiping the box).

Core DVR functionality, playing a recording program, was hard. Someone who never lived through the first releases that practically required nintendo cheat codes to play a program, who is judging it freshly today, might not have the same harsh view.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I don't know what the civil war was regarding, but I don't think Hydra is something anybody is *fully* happy with. I'm bracing for Palms... We'll find out fairly quickly where usability landed on their priority list this time around.


With years of defections and also merger-related layoffs ("syngeries"), I assume whatever's coming won't have had the same rigorous usability testing and design may have shifted from original vision given the staffing carousel (as I believe Palms to have been part of the original TiVo+/more ads vision). However, they can still get something right or good. We shall see.


----------



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

davezatz said:


> &#8230;&#8230;. I assume whatever's coming won't have had the same rigorous usability testing &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


This comment triggers an (off topic, sorry!) comment from me:
I cut the cable and have been using YouTube TV for almost two years, using mostly the Amazon Fire app on my Fire Cube. Based on my experience, and also on posts in the YTTV subreddit, I would have to say that the YTTV apps are suffering from a major deficiency of usability testing! I wonder if that's just what sells in 2021?


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Based on my experience, and also on posts in the YTTV subreddit, I would have to say that the YTTV apps are suffering from a major deficiency of usability testing! I wonder if that's just what sells in 2021?


Yes. And in many years. Cos are compelled to deliver fast. Testing and iterating interface stuff is not fast and requires a different skill set than what is needed to simply launch. Also constant UI tweaks, even improvements, can be disruptive to users. I mean Chromecast with Google TV (and TiVo Stream 4K) has no dedicated play/pause button. That's kinda madness. (Most app developers are standardizing things on the center button and things have been improving, but behavior is not universal and pause can require two clicks - crazy).


----------



## bakerfall (Dec 6, 2004)

I went back to TE3 after using Hydra for several years. I got use to the UI changes, but what did it for me was the preroll ads (which I called and had removed multiple times only to have them return) and the Tivo+ ads in the guide. I miss auto skip, but other than that TE3 is a cleaner and far less annoying experience. If "Palms" maintains those "features" I have a hard time imagining myself using it.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

davezatz said:


> I mean Chromecast with Google TV (and TiVo Stream 4K) has no dedicated play/pause button. That's kinda madness. (Most app developers are standardizing things on the center button and things have been improving, but behavior is not universal and pause can require two clicks - crazy).


This is Google's fault -- it's a poor design decision that they made for Android TV. That lack of playback control UI/UX standardization is the main reason I won't use Android TV/Google TV. I've tried out that OS on various devices over the years but it's just a huge step backwards from Apple TV in that regard.


----------



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> IMHO the only way TiVo survives going forward is to release their own OTT service, ala SlingTV, and integrate it directly into the Stream 4K. Without that they fade into irrelevance.
> 
> Maybe they eventually release a cheap OTA only DVR, ala Tablo, but I'm not sure if that's a big enough market to even bother with.


I agree on both counts. Although I can't see TiVo ever getting into the already-crowded vMVPD market with their own OTT cable TV service; that's not where their experience/competency lies and there are already too many established competitors there who are barely scraping out a profit, if that. (Sony couldn't make it work with PS Vue while FuboTV is still losing money but hopes to become profitable thanks to in-app sports betting. The other remaining players are Google, Disney, Dish and DirecTV.)

As for OTA, yeah, it's a pretty niche market for OTA DVRs. TiVo could still compete there if they wanted but it's hard to see such a product really moving the needle for Xperi's bottom line in any meaningful way. I'm increasingly doubtful that ATSC 3.0 is ever going to take off and replace ATSC 1.0. Instead, I suspect that the recent increase in cord-cutter-fueled OTA antenna usage will subside and revert in the years to come as younger generations simply aren't interested enough in what OTA TV offers to bother with an antenna.

I think the TiVo brand lives on in the next few years pretty much just as an IPTV solutions provider for tier 2/3 broadband operators as they combine what they were already doing in that area with the similar Mobi TV business they just acquired. But that business will fade in the years to come due to two factors. First, more consumers will continue to dump linear-channel TV for on-demand streaming. Second, those IPTV+broadband operators are facing rising competition for linear-channel pay TV service from nationally-known streaming brands like YouTube TV and Hulu, which work just as well over the operator's broadband pipe as their in-house TiVo-powered IPTV service. How many of those IPTV services will still be available five years from now in 2026?


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah my hopes of them doing anything I suggested aren’t high, but I can dream. 

The current TiVo Stream 4K and Sling integration actually isn’t that bad, except that it doesn’t work with the AirTV OTA portion of Sling, and there are no alternatives for recording OTA that integrate with the TiVo app, so it's not a full feature replacement. If they supported AirTV, or had their own OTA DVR that integrated, I think I'd be pretty happy with it. Unfortunately I talked to a higher up at TiVo recently and they said they have no plans to add AirTV support.  So unless they do their own OTA DVR, or some OTT service that includes locals, there will never be a way to record OTA using the unified TiVo app on the TS4K.


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

How much money would I need to invest in TiVo to make original content only TiVo users would be able to have access to? I willing to pony up at least 3 commas plus into this business venture.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Still not any new info/rumor about “Palms”???


----------



## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

"Palms" is TiVo holding out their hands for cash.... The money from court cases is drying up.


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Theory One: Palms in an internet fairy tale at this point. Theory Two: Palms is the code word for TE 5 .


----------



## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

I really think that "Palms" is a code to force upgrade TE3 devices to TE4.

I'm going to go and hide now.....😬


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

I genuinely believe they had plans for a new UI.

I'm quite sure those plans are dead.


----------



## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

kdmorse said:


> I genuinely believe they had plans for a new UI.
> 
> I'm quite sure those plans are dead.


Probably the most reasonable response... Agree.


----------



## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

I’m at the point, I don’t really care anymore. TiVo’s are collecting dust as I rarely use them.


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

osu1991 said:


> I’m at the point, I don’t really care anymore. TiVo’s are collecting dust as I rarely use them.


Still the best DVR on the market with its original content and all.


----------



## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

ufo4sale said:


> Still the best DVR on the market with its original content and all.


I agree, just don’t have a use for them myself. My parents still use them for OTA recordings. I’ve just got to the point of not watching much TV anymore broadcast or subscription. Just doesn’t keep my attention or interest.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

ufo4sale said:


> Still the best DVR on the market with its original content and all.


I agree. And DVRs have become irrelevant now that streaming delivers a superior experience.


----------



## Phil T (Oct 29, 2003)

ej42137 said:


> I agree. And DVRs have become irrelevant now that streaming delivers a superior experience.


Not sure I agree. Been watching 1883 on Paramount Plus. I have the version through T-Mobile that includes commercials. Same with Peacock and Discovery Plus. Very annoying to have to sit through two minutes of commercials every few minutes when I know I could jump through them on my TiVO. Also needing too have multiple streaming boxes is a PIA.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Phil T said:


> Not sure I agree. Been watching 1883 on Paramount Plus. I have the version through T-Mobile that includes commercials. Same with Peacock and Discovery Plus. Very annoying to have to sit through two minutes of commercials every few minutes when I know I could jump through them on my TiVO. Also needing too have multiple streaming boxes is a PIA.


So you are paying to watch commercials? To me that seems a foolish economy. I watch 1883 on Paramount Plus. I have never seen a commercial on that service. If the commerical-free service were not available I would not subscribe.

I use Apple TV. I have several other boxes I could use, but that seems to have the best picture and most consistent interface, and the only missing service I can think of is Roku; I've only watched one program that was available only on Roku (the Zoey movie). I doubt I'll watch another. I don't know why you think you need multiple boxes to stream.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

ej42137 said:


> I don't know why you think you need multiple boxes to stream.


Every single streaming device has its quirks and/or limitations. If you are unaware of them, then you are probably not concerned with the highest quality A/V stream (e.g., UHD, Dolby Vision, DD+/Atmos, frame-matching, etc.).


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

ej42137 said:


> I agree. And DVRs have become irrelevant now that streaming delivers a superior experience.


Um, no. Hell no if you're talking about the viewing experience where Tivo is way better.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> Um, no. Hell no if you're talking about the viewing experience where Tivo is way better.


If I watch a program on TiVo the channel provider will feel free to trash up the lower third with distracting garbage. And the quality will be at best 1080s, compressed by the cable company to a fuzzy mess. The channels I stream have none of these issues, with resolution from 1080p to a beautiful HDR 4k. Best of all I can watch uninterrupted without having to skip commercial breaks.

TiVo does provide better trick play. But that is much less of an advantage when there aren't commercials to skip in the first place.

If chiguy50 thinks he gets a better picture using his TiVo I think he needs to get his eyes checked.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

chiguy50 said:


> Every single streaming device has its quirks and/or limitations. If you are unaware of them, then you are probably not concerned with the highest quality A/V stream (e.g., UHD, Dolby Vision, DD+/Atmos, frame-matching, etc.).


Those things are reasons to choose one box over another. They aren't justification for using multiple boxes.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

ej42137 said:


> If chiguy50 thinks he gets a better picture using his TiVo I think he needs to get his eyes checked.


Well, that's coming out of left field! Not sure where you derived that particular impression, but I do not stream from any TiVo device. I use either a Roku Ultra, CCGTV, Amazon FTVS4K, or the Android TV OS on one of my displays. But for the best PQ I rely on UHD Blu-ray discs played on my Oppo UDP-203.



ej42137 said:


> Those things are reasons to choose one box over another. They aren't justification for using multiple boxes.


I don't think you are following the logic. As I have already stated, EVERY streaming device available to date entails some compromise or another. Therefore, it is necessary to employ more than one in order to circumvent the particular feature lacking on any one specific device.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

chiguy50 said:


> I don't think you are following the logic. As I have already stated, EVERY streaming device available to date entails some compromise or another. Therefore, it is necessary to employ more than one in order to circumvent the particular feature lacking on any one specific device.


The original proposition from OP was that a TiVo is more desirable than using multiple devices to stream. My point was that one doesn't need to use multiple streaming devices. Your point seems to be that different streaming devices are optimal in different situations, and although correct, that doesn't imply that multiple streaming devices are required to provide a better experience than a TiVo.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

ej42137 said:


> The original proposition from OP was that a TiVo is more desirable than using multiple devices to stream. My point was that one doesn't need to use multiple streaming devices. Your point seems to be that different streaming devices are optimal in different situations, and although correct, that doesn't imply that multiple streaming devices are required to provide a better experience than a TiVo.


"Better experience" is entirely subjective. If simplicity and convenience is your main consideration, and if you are not using a programmable remote, then certainly using a TiVo DVR as your one-source device for TV and streaming video may be the optimal solution provided that you do not need access to the many apps missing from the TiVo-sphere.

However, a dedicated media streaming device will almost always provide a better experience over time than using the apps on a TiVo DVR/Mini. And since most devices are relatively cheap, it is not a significant investment. And for most people who are not concerned about the top-tier A/V codecs, one cheap streamer, such as a Roku stick, would probably suffice.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

ej42137 said:


> If I watch a program on TiVo the channel provider will feel free to trash up the lower third with distracting garbage. And the quality will be at best 1080s, compressed by the cable company to a fuzzy mess. The channels I stream have none of these issues, with resolution from 1080p to a beautiful HDR 4k. Best of all I can watch uninterrupted without having to skip commercial breaks.
> 
> TiVo does provide better trick play. But that is much less of an advantage when there aren't commercials to skip in the first place.
> 
> If chiguy50 thinks he gets a better picture using his TiVo I think he needs to get his eyes checked.


So your personal cable problems mean DVRs suck compared to streaming? Sure.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> So your personal cable problems mean DVRs suck compared to streaming? Sure.


I did not realize that the lower third inserts were aimed at me alone. Thank-you, I will contact my cable company to get it removed and go back to TiVo.

Do you know why the other people on TCF complaining about these issues are lying about it?


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

ej42137 said:


> I did not realize that the lower third inserts were aimed at me alone. Thank-you, I will contact my cable company to get it removed and go back to TiVo.
> 
> Do you know why the other people on TCF complaining about these issues are lying about it?


Since you didn't quote what you're referring to about TCF people "lying" I don't think it's answerable, you may want to clarify.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> Since you didn't quote what you're referring to about TCF people "lying" I don't think it's answerable, you may want to clarify.


Compression and broadcaster or local affiliate graphic overlays, common complaints on TCF.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

None of this changes the fact that you are giving up a superior viewing experience with Tivo, so there are gives and gets.

The point is that it's ridiculous to make a blanket statement that Tivos are inferior to streaming. No one disputes that the DVR's days are numbered or that cable vid quality is worse than streaming (generally). But Tivo gives you more flexibility especially for stuff like sports, news and anything with commercials.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> None of this changes the fact that you are giving up a superior viewing experience with Tivo, so there are gives and gets.
> 
> The point is that it's ridiculous to make a blanket statement that Tivos are inferior to streaming. No one disputes that the DVR's days are numbered or that cable vid quality is worse than streaming (generally). But Tivo gives you more flexibility especially for stuff like sports, news and anything with commercials.


I do agree with TiVo you are giving up a superior viewing experience that could have been had with streaming. If I cared to watch sport, the calculus might be difference, but I don't so it isn't.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

krkaufman said:


> Compression and broadcaster or local affiliate graphic overlays, common complaints on TCF.


Right, but how have we been "lying about it" on TCF? that's the truly befuddling part of that post.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> Right, but how have we been "lying about it" on TCF? that's the truly befuddling part of that post.


Without reviewing, my understanding was that the poster felt that many on TCF had complained about the effects of compression and overlay advertising, and was sarcastically responding to the reply that had characterized the view as a “personal” issue.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Wordle 253 4/6

🟨⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜🟩🟩⬜
⬜⬜🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

krkaufman said:


> Without reviewing, my understanding was that the poster felt that many on TCF had complained about the effects of compression and overlay advertising, and was sarcastically responding to the reply that had characterized the view as a “personal” issue.


Thank-you.

dianebrat is usually more perspicacious, perhaps she didn't read the previous posts.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

ej42137 said:


> Thank-you.
> 
> dianebrat is usually more perspicacious, perhaps she didn't read the previous posts.


I did read back, but nothing jumped out, thus my question


----------

