# Game of Thrones S06E10 Season Finale The Winds of Winter



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Just turned this on but had to stop and say how fabulous it is to see Winterfell in the opening sequence without the Flayed Man all over it. And The Twins make a return.


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

So much greatness in tonight's episode.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

King Jon! R+L=J! Queen Cersei! Lady Morment! The revenge of Arya! Walder's comeuppance! The High Squirrel's comeuppance! Pycelle's comeuppance! Targaryens and Dothraki and dragons, oh my! 

Must...breathe.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Yeah that ending was pretty epic!

And we finally get confirmation on R+L=J :up:


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Lannisters are isolated no allies and definitely have the dragon queen coming for them. Do the Starks go after them from the other side? Does Arya know Jon and Sansa have winterfell? How will tyrion treat his brother in war?


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

That was certainly eventful.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

How is Varys traveling around so quickly? Or is there more than one of him?


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Oh my goodness gracious. This was the best episode of TV! 

Aaaaaaaugh!!! AWESOME!! Disgusting. And wonderful!
I was all over the map.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> King Jon! R+L=J! Queen Cersei! Lady Morment! The revenge of Arya! Walder's comeuppance! The High Squirrel's comeuppance! Pycelle's comeuppance! Targaryens and Dothraki and dragons, oh my!
> 
> Must...breathe.


More comeuppance: Lancel and Unella.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Wow, that's an impressive body count of named characters.

Margery, Loras, and Mace Tyrell
Kevan and Lancel Lannister
The High Sparrow and (probably) the entire Faith Militant
Tommen Baratheon
Grand Maester Pycelle
Lord Walder Frey

Arya gets a notch in her belt (and can do the face thing!). Littlefinger does not get his way.

Cersei is Queen, but probably not for long. Dani is sailing with the Dothraki, Ironborn, and Dorne as allies.

R+L=J is confirmed! The question remains, were they married?

C'mon Season 7!


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

goblue97 said:


> How is Varys traveling around so quickly? Or is there more than one of him?


I didn't know where he was headed. That was one of many pleasant surprises.

What was the look between Sansa and Littlefinger? 
I couldn't believe he flat out admitted he saw *himself* on the iron throne. Thought he be a bit more roundabout and subtle about it...


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

Shame!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mwhip said:


> Lannisters are isolated no allies and definitely have the dragon queen coming for them.


Plus I don't see whatever claim Cersei might have. Except by conquest, and that's a claim that can only be exercised by holding onto the throne long enough for everybody who disagrees to either die off or join up.

I wonder if Dany turning down Daerio's offer to take Casterly Rock is going to come back to haunt her? That seems to be the only place besides King's Landing that might remain loyal to Cersei, and giving her a place to fall back to might prove troublesome...


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> How is Varys traveling around so quickly? Or is there more than one of him?


Maybe Dani stopped in Dorne and picked him up as she was sailing north.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Holy crap! What an episode. Somehow I think it will take Martin 3 books and 16 years to tell the same story.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Wow. I think more happened in episode 10 then in the entire season.

Quick thoughts:

Cersei like big boom. She killed everyone, even her own family.

I can't believe how stupid the High Sparrow was. Not only didn't he think Cersei was up to something, he wouldn't let anyone else leave. Maybe he wasn't as smart as people give him credit for.

Tommen's death seen seemed someone comedic to me. I don't think it was supposed to be.

Wasn't expecting to see either Arya or Samwell again or Dorne either.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Plus I don't see whatever claim Cersei might have. Except by conquest, and that's a claim that can only be exercised by holding onto the throne long enough for everybody who disagrees to either die off or join up.


Considering Cersei basically murdered anyone else who could possibly claim the throne I'd call that a conquest. Though I think by actual right the thrown would go to Jamie based on their family tree.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

morac said:


> Tommen's death seen seemed someone comedic to me. I don't think it was supposed to be.


I thought the same thing. It was like a Monty Python sketch.


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## bantar (Apr 27, 2004)

I actually liked Cersei in this episode. But, I went back to hating her at her coronation.

I don't think she wanted Tommen dead, but I also don't think there was any grief either.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Curious as to how it plays out between Cersei and Jaime.


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

So did Arya actually bake that bread or did she find Hot Pie along the way?


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

heySkippy said:


> Grand Maester Pycelle












--Carlos V.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

So what now? We go into hibernation until April? How are we supposed to just *wait* after that?


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## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

Ereth said:


> We go into hibernation until April?


Winter IS here.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

morac said:


> Tommen's death seen seemed someone comedic to me. I don't think it was supposed to be.





TampaThunder said:


> I thought the same thing. It was like a Monty Python sketch.


The first thing that came to my mind was to wonder if he washed his hands while singing the "Happy Birthday" song just before he jumped*

* An Obscure Larry David movie; so obscure that I can't even find it on IMDB


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Love the little Lady Mormont!

Good grief, it's getting to the point where there won't be anyone left to die. We lost a lot of characters tonight!

Benjen can't pass The Wall anymore. And I guess Bran is just supposed to crawl the rest of the way?

Lots to process.


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> Love the little Lady Mormont!
> 
> Good grief, it's getting to the point where there won't be anyone left to die. We lost a lot of characters tonight!
> 
> ...


I think they are at the weir tree near Castle Black, the same one where Jon Snow took his nights watch vows.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

SoBelle0 said:


> What was the look between Sansa and Littlefinger?


Concerning.

I'll miss Maergery. Loved her laying it out for the Sparrow: "Cersei knows the consequences ...."

Still love her grandmother. "Let the grown women talk."

Who knew the Little Birds were so versatile?

The extra effort to make sure Lancel saw it coming...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

SoBelle0 said:


> What was the look between Sansa and Littlefinger?


I saw it as a bit of an "I told you so" from Littlefinger and Sansa's look was kind of "Oh crap, he was right."



wedgecon said:


> I think they are at the weir tree near Castle Black, the same one where Jon Snow took his nights watch vows.


They're still north of the Wall. Are you saying Jon Snow took his vows north of the Wall?


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Bummer for the prostitute - she'll never get paid now....


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Frey Pie!


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

This was a fantastic episode.

I "called" a ton of it, almost shot by shot.

Maybe it's that I'm paying more attention lately, but I called the High Sparrow and Tommen dead.

When Cersei looked out her window towards the Sept the first time, I made an explosion motion with my 2 hands.

And finally, i thought early on, the last scene would be an aerial shot of a sh**-ton of ships with Dragon insignia.

I think the last one was probably easy to predict.

But it was all so good, the whole series seems boiled down to brothers & sisters and aunts and nephews, and everybody seems related now.

-smak-


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

On second watch I noticed that when Qyburn bestowed the crown on Cersei he was wearing the symbol of the Queen's Hand......

Dany vs Cersei
Tyrion vs Qyburn 

Bring it on! 

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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I did expect there to be a scene of the White Walkers approaching the Wall. Isn't it about time for that to happen?


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I did expect there to be a scene of the White Walkers approaching the Wall. Isn't it about time for that to happen?


Season 8?

Gotta think next season will be focused on Dany taking King's Landing and then making an alliance with her nephew Jon SnowStarkTargaryen. Of course only Bran knows she is his Aunt. So maybe he is the one she ends up marrying as she mentioned when she dumped Daario Naharis...

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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

gossamer88 said:


> And we finally get confirmation on R+L=J :up:


Not quite. We got _+L=J confirmation. For some reason they had Lyanna whisper the part that might have confirmed R. I'm not sure if they did that because they think they can draw out the suspense (fat chance, it is almost impossible for it to be anyone other than Rhaegar), or if it was a plot contrivance to keep Bran from figuring out the father yet.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

smak said:


> This was a fantastic episode.
> 
> I "called" a ton of it, almost shot by shot.
> 
> ...


Aunt and nephew too imo.

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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

danielhart said:


> Of course only Bran knows she is his Aunt.


But does Bran know that Rhaegar is Jon's father? Lyanna whispered it so that we could not hear what she said. It seems possible that Bran did not "hear", either.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

danielhart said:


> Aunt and nephew too imo.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yah, i thought I posted that, so I re-posted.

And Jon & Sansa still brother & sister, but not the way they think they are.

I don't think Jon ever thought he had a claim to the Iron Throne, but now it seems he's a big contender.

-smak-


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smak said:


> And Jon & Sansa still brother & sister, but not the way they think they are.


What? Cousins, not siblings.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Passing thought....Theon meets the Red Woman, says "I heard what you did for Jon Snow...I have something that needs resurrecting...." 

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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> Maybe Dani stopped in Dorne and picked him up as she was sailing north.


That's exactly what happened. There are ships flying the banners of Dorne and Highgarden alongside the ships from the Iron Islands and Dany's ships. So, they stopped in Dorne and are now sailing to Casterly Rock.



DevdogAZ said:


> They're still north of the Wall. Are you saying Jon Snow took his vows north of the Wall?


Yes. That's where the closest tree is. When he first joined the Watch, the Lord Commander asked if there was anyone who kept the Old Gods because they'd have ride north of the Wall to take their oath.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

john4200 said:


> But does Bran know that Rhaegar is Jon's father? Lyanna whispered it so that we could not hear what she said. It seems possible that Bran did not "hear", either.


I'm thinking the R part of the R + L = J might not be confirmed until Jon takes the business side of a fire breathing dragon and nothing happens.

Supposedly it's been said that being fire proof is a Dany thing, not a Targaryen thing, but still, I think this would be cool.

-smak-


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

john4200 said:


> What? Cousins, not siblings.


Yes, my bad.

-smak-


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

john4200 said:


> But does Bran know that Rhaegar is Jon's father? Lyanna whispered it so that we could not hear what she said. It seems possible that Bran did not "hear", either.


I expect that if it's not fully clear now it will be as we will probably get more flashbacks so Sean Bean can get some work.

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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Lady Mormont gets sh*t done!

Arya is straight up gangsta although baking the Frey boys into a pie was something out of a Grimm's fairy tale.

I wonder if the people declaring Jon king of the north know how stupid he was as a battle commander.

Are all the Lannister kids dead now?

Benjen can't go past the wall but he could have given Bran and Whatshername a horse or called the North's equivalent of a taxi instead of just dumping them on the side of the road.

I expected Jaime to kill the Freys.

Poor Loras couldn't catch a break. He had his forehead carved right before getting blowed up.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Poor Lancel couldn't catch a break. He had his forehead carved right before getting blowed up.


Loras


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## debtoine (May 17, 2001)

So, when Lyanne said "Robert will kill him" she was referring to Robert Barratheon ?

T


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

debtoine said:


> So, when Lyanne said "Robert will kill him" she was referring to Robert Barratheon ?
> 
> T


Definitely.


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## debtoine (May 17, 2001)

This was quite the episode!

Anya's scene was fantastic, and I wonder if her doing the "face trick" means that she's still somewhat associated with the he Faceless G-d. Did she just bring one face? Did she bring more? Will we see her again as another character?

Cersei blowing up The Sept was inevitable, but the way it was shown, there were options of either that dude blowing out the candles, or Maergery getting people out, to make the explosion less effective. 

I do wonder, though, with the supposed fire power of Wild Fyre, how the blast could be so contained.


T


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

There is no other Robert mentioned in 7 seasons of Game of Thrones, that I recall.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Where's Gendry? Not that he matters anymore for proving pedigree of Tommen, and Dany is going to make the question of rightful heir moot, but in the meantime, he has as good a claim to the throne as Cersei.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I think it's becoming inevitable that Jaime will be the one to end Cercei. He killed the first guy who tried to burn up the city, and Cercei actually carried it out. And she is directly responsible for Tommen's death.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

smak said:


> Supposedly it's been said that being fire proof is a Dany thing, not a Targaryen thing, but still, I think this would be cool.
> 
> -smak-


I think it's some Targaryens and Jon is going to be on that list.



cheesesteak said:


> Lady Mormont gets sh*t done!
> 
> Are all the Lannister kids dead now?


Lady Mormont owned it.

Yes. Which makes Cercei phenomenally dangerous. As Tyrion said (paraphrased) her only redeeming quality is her love for her children.



debtoine said:


> So, when Lyanne said "Robert will kill him" she was referring to Robert Barratheon ?


Yes. And that she cared means she was a willing participant, not kidnapped and raped.

Now the question is: were they married? Is Jon not a bastard after all?



JETarpon said:


> Where's Gendry? Not that he matters anymore for proving pedigree of Tommen, and Dany is going to make the question of rightful heir moot, but in the meantime, he has as good a claim to the throne as Cersei.


I think last we saw was him staying with the Brotherhood Without Banners in season 3. I think he's going to show up again.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

As for R+L=J, who else could it be other than Rhaegar? She was under the Kingsguard protection so that wipes out any ridiculous theory that she was kidnapped by someone else. The only thing we don't know is whether the two had actually gotten married (Rhaegar already had a wife but, who knows what "rules" Targaryens may have had in that regard). There must be a maester around, somewhere, who would have performed the ceremony.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I don't think anyone thinks the father is anyone else, just that it hadn't been confirmed (like the mother has) and that Bran may not know.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Robin said:


> I think last we saw was him staying with the Brotherhood Without Banners in season 3. I think he's going to show up again.


Pretty sure Mel came and took him from the Brotherhood back to Dragonstone. This was when she told Arya that they would meet again.

Last we saw of Gendry was him rowing a boat after Davos helped him escape.

Did he end up back with the Brotherhood after that?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Jon is not fireproof. See season 1 where he burned his hand killing the dead wight.

Tapatic Tapcrapick Tapatalk


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> And she is directly responsible for Tommen's death.


I would argue against that. She was defending herself...the High Squirrel was using Tommen to kill Cersei (how do you think her trial was meant to end?), and she counter-played him (rather excessively, true, but still). I think Tommen may have realized what his actions had led to, and couldn't take it.

Not that he was a mustachio-twirling villain; just a complete idiot who allowed himself to be manipulated, and had no clue he was being used to judicially murder his own mother. I suspect at that moment he realized that because of what the High Squirrel tricked him into doing, something terrible was going to have happened one way or the other. (Ironically, I think that if the Squirrel's plan had worked, Tommen would have balked and turned against him rather than see his mother executed, which makes Cersei's action unnecessary...)

That's how I saw his suicide, anyway...


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> Pretty sure Mel came and took him from the Brotherhood back to Dragonstone. This was when she told Arya that they would meet again.
> 
> Last we saw of Gendry was him rowing a boat after Davos helped him escape.
> 
> Did he end up back with the Brotherhood after that?


Ah, my bad. I'm only half way through S3 on my rewatch.



Shaunnick said:


> Jon is not fireproof. See season 1 where he burned his hand killing the dead wight.


Good catch.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I would argue against that. She was defending herself...the High Squirrel was using Tommen to kill Cersei (how do you think her trial was meant to end?), and she counter-played him (rather excessively, true, but still). I think Tommen may have realized what his actions had led to, and couldn't take it.


Plus Cersei constantly underestimated his allegiance to Margary. Losing her was also a huge blow.

Maybe because her only love was Jaime she can't understand how someone could be so devoted to their spouse. She never saw his suicide coming.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I wonder if Ned killed all the women who were helping his sister...only way to keep the secret is to not have anyone know about it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I wonder if Ned killed all the women who were helping his sister...only way to keep the secret is to not have anyone know about it.


That doesn't seem at all Ned-like.

I suspect there has to be some mechanism for the secret to get out, although her servants don't seem a very satisfying one. Perhaps Ned's buddy/Meera's father?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That doesn't seem at all Ned-like.
> 
> I suspect there has to be some mechanism for the secret to get out, although her servants don't seem a very satisfying one. Perhaps Ned's buddy/Meera's father?


I agree. So it seems to me that are are a few people who can confirm the story; one of which Bran will probably go to once he passes the Wall (Mereen's father).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Glad I called it in the thread for ep 9; that everyone will turn to Jon, not Sansa.

The way I interpreted the look between Sansa and Littlefinger is this:

Sansa "ha. didn't see that one coming, did you? You thought it would be me and you would get the North by marrying me. You did all this for nothing".

LF: "well, crap. that didn't work out. I wonder if Jon likes men!".


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bantar said:


> I actually liked Cersei in this episode. But, I went back to hating her at her coronation. I don't think she wanted Tommen dead, but I also don't think there was any grief either.


I booed the screen a la Princess Bride. "you are the queen of garbage!"

She tried to save Tommen by keeping him away.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> She tried to save Tommen by keeping him away.


Speaking of which, he took the name King's Landing way too seriously.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I saw it as a bit of an "I told you so" from Littlefinger and Sansa's look was kind of "Oh crap, he was right." They're still north of the Wall. Are you saying Jon Snow took his vows north of the Wall?


Oh crap? Why would she be upset that the north is united.

I took it more as he was not happy because it puts a block in the way of his dream and she knows it and knows he will scheme against John now.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Was I having a nightmare, or did it say season finale? Oh, crap!

Otherwise, fantastic ep!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

RegBarc said:


> Speaking of which, he took the name King's Landing way too seriously.


He didn't stick the landing, though. Multiple point deduction.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

The music associated with Cersei this episode was nothing short of the best music I've heard in this series. Amazingly well done.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I love that with the exception of Jon in the north, what we have left is all female rulers. Four of them allied against Cersei.

There is a theory going around (with less support than the R+L=J one) that I'll spolerize though it is not really a spoiler if it's just a theory:



Spoiler



The theory is that Tyrion's father was not Tywin but the Mad King. That would make Tyrion and Dany half siblings and allow him to potentially be the third dragon rider (along with Jon).


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

What an odd turn for Tommen


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

wprager said:


> I think it's becoming inevitable that Jaime will be the one to end Cercei. He killed the first guy who tried to burn up the city, and Cercei actually carried it out. And she is directly responsible for Tommen's death.


So, Cercei is more mad than the Mad King. I think Jaime's work is not yet done. Now we wait for SE07.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Anubys said:


> The way I interpreted the look between Sansa and Littlefinger is this:
> 
> Sansa "ha. didn't see that one coming, did you? You thought it would be me and you would get the North by marrying me. You did all this for nothing".
> 
> LF: "well, crap. that didn't work out. I wonder if Jon likes men!".


I don't know. That look made me think that Littlefinger might have been successful in getting her to think about ruling the North _and_ the Seven Kingdoms. Sansa might not be happy with her position compared to Jon's.



RegBarc said:


> Speaking of which, he took the name King's Landing way too seriously.


Ha!


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)




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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

markp99 said:


> So, Cercei is more mad than the Mad King. I think Jaime's work is not yet done.


I don't think so. Aeron wanted to kill everybody. Cersei was pretty clever about primarily targeting her enemies (yes, with a fair amount of collateral damage, but she got the job done). It's just that, as is so often the case, she overreacted without regard for consequences.

So, not mad. Just kinda stupid (or at least, nowhere near as smart as she thinks she is, which I think is her defining characteristic).


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Do we want to know what the Mountain was doing to Cercei's tormentor?


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Do we want to know what the Mountain was doing to Cercei's tormentor?


He was standing there looking Mountain-y. 

I thought she was going to blind the woman at first (after saying that she wanted her face to be the last thing she saw). He didn't really seem to be doing anything nor does he seem all that capable of doing any of the normal male vs female evil that one might expect. He just seems to be REALLY big and mostly dead.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Arya is straight up gangsta although baking the Frey boys into a pie was something out of a Grimm's fairy tale.


Not Grimm's...Old Nan's. It's a call back to Bran's telling of Old Nan's story of the Rat Cook, who was cursed by the Gods for breaking the laws of hospitality.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

How appropriate! That's exactly what Walder did.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

What a good episode! Anyone major characters missing besides The Hound and Brienne?

Just thought of another - the Night's King.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think so. Aeron wanted to kill everybody.


I admit that I could totally be wrong as I do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of the Aeron backstory, but ever since they showed Bran receiving flashes of Aeron talking about burning them all, I've wondered if he was really ordering as much or if he was responding to something that Bran said to him. I keep thinking that the Hodor thing has to have more significance than just a cool way to explain his name. I have not developed a full on theory, but wonder how much of Aeron's craziness will turn out to be Bran trying to communicate with him.


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

3D said:


> I admit that I could totally be wrong as I do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of the Aeron backstory, but ever since they showed Bran receiving flashes of Aeron talking about burning them all, I've wondered if he was really ordering as much or if he was responding to something that Bran said to him. I keep thinking that the Hodor thing has to have more significance than just a cool way to explain his name. I have not developed a full on theory, but wonder how much of Aeron's craziness will turn out to be Bran trying to communicate with him.


:up: Bran, or someone with the same ability.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Arya's list is pretty small going into next season. Melisandre is still on it, and her last words to Arya were "We will meet again". Can't wait, she is due for a horrible death.

Oh yeah, we also saw Sam walk into the citadel and see the weird art piece history device thingie that starts off every episode.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

nickels said:


> Oh yeah, we also saw Sam walk into the citadel and see the weird art piece history device thingie that starts off every episode.


Great catch!


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jakerock said:


> I love that with the exception of Jon in the north, what we have left is all female rulers. Four of them allied against Cersei.


It's really a shame the north made the guy who nearly lost the war king, instead of the woman who won it. Jon Snow was pretty much an idiot. Furthermore, all of the males that Ned Stark seem to be pretty incompetent when it comes to winning wars. They are either emotional or principled instead of pragmatic. Just like Ned Stark himself was.



3D said:


> I keep thinking that the Hodor thing has to have more significance than just a cool way to explain his name. I have not developed a full on theory, but wonder how much of Aeron's craziness will turn out to be Bran trying to communicate with him.


I like this theory, though I wonder if it's a plot more fit for a book series that we will not see in the television series. We haven't explored much about Aegon (his name is Aegon, right, not Aeron?) in the TV series. Having not read the books, I don't know if there is more depth there.



nickels said:


> Arya's list is pretty small going into next season. Melisandre is still on it, and her last words to Arya were "We will meet again". Can't wait, she is due for a horrible death.


I wonder if she's going to be unable to stop killing people. Maybe she ends up going after all Lannisters (including Tyrion) and has to be stopped.

Anyhow, good ep, IMO the best of the season, and in the top episodes of the series. So many annoying characters killed off and annoying plot lines cleaned up, making room for less baggage next season. No more Freys. No more High Sparrow. We've sailed away from Meereen. We've finally cemented Cersei in place as not just the woman behind the problems on the iron throne, but the woman on the iron throne, so we can deal with her directly.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I'm hoping next season we see Bran watching R+L getting jiggy with it...

BTW, loved how Sansa rejected Baelish...again!


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That doesn't seem at all Ned-like.
> 
> I suspect there has to be some mechanism for the secret to get out, although her servants don't seem a very satisfying one. Perhaps Ned's buddy/Meera's father?


Howland Reed has always been my guess for how we find out about Jon's mother.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> BTW, loved how Sansa rejected Baelish...again!


Littlefinger is creepy - being in love with both Sansa and her mother.

Aren't the Lannisters broke? I vaguely remember Tywin saying something to that effect. There's a war coming but it's kind of hard to outfit, feed and pay your army when you're coffers are empty.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Littlefinger is creepy - being in love with both Sansa and her mother.
> 
> Aren't the Lannisters broke? I vaguely remember Tywin saying something to that effect. There's a war coming but it's kind of hard to outfit, feed and pay your army when you're coffers are empty.


He says he loves them, but I don't buy it. It's his creepy way to get to the Iron Throne. Speaking of which, that was a first for him to actually admit, right?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Oh crap? Why would she be upset that the north is united. I took it more as he was not happy because it puts a block in the way of his dream and she knows it and knows he will scheme against John now.


I may be wrong, but I took it as her realizing that Jon was getting all the glory and she was just going to be an afterthought, whereas with Littlefinger she would be more than that.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> Howland Reed has always been my guess for how we find out about Jon's mother.


You mean how THEY find out...we knew we were going to find out through Bran.


gossamer88 said:


> He says he loves them, but I don't buy it.


I buy it, albeit in his creepy, self-obsessed way. I think a lot of what he does is driven by his stalkery obsession with Caitlyn (and Sansa), his need to win them over, and his need to punish them for rejecting him.


----------



## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

Ereth said:


> So what now? We go into hibernation until April? How are we supposed to just *wait* after that?


Rebinge...40 weeks until April....60 episodes...easy


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Aren't the Lannisters broke? I vaguely remember Tywin saying something to that effect. There's a war coming but it's kind of hard to outfit, feed and pay your army when you're coffers are empty.


I believe Tywin first spoke of it when he asked Tyrion to guess how much gold had come out of the mines in the last two years. Tyrion asked if he wanted the guess in tons or ounces. Tywin told him it didn't matter, the number was the same either way.

Being broke is also why the Lannisters had to cozy up to the Tyrells.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

smbaker said:


> I like this theory, though I wonder if it's a plot more fit for a book series that we will not see in the television series. We haven't explored much about Aegon (his name is Aegon, right, not Aeron?) in the TV series. Having not read the books, I don't know if there is more depth there


Aerys

Interesting that you came up with Aegon. You sure you haven't read the books?


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I still can't believe that the rumors say there there are only 13 episodes left here. There is so much they need to cover and so many plot points missing.

I was thinking back to many of the character's roles this season and realized that many barely had more than an hour of screen time. Tyrion's role this entire season was within Mereen and I'm betting he had less than an hour total of screen time. I wonder how long it takes to film that.

Not to mention Indira Varma. She had less than 10 minutes I think.


----------



## spear (Oct 11, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> I may be wrong, but I took it as her realizing that Jon was getting all the glory and she was just going to be an afterthought, whereas with Littlefinger she would be more than that.


I believe Sansa was smiling when they were hailing Jon. She only had that look after she saw Littlefinger, so I had the same interpretation as TonyD79 -- that she was worried he would now try to eliminate Jon.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

BrettStah said:


> What a good episode! Anyone major characters missing besides The Hound and Brienne?
> 
> Just thought of another - the Night's King.


I was surprised we didn't see Euron. Probably too busy building ships.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> I was surprised we didn't see Euron. Probably too busy building ships.


It would be pretty funny if he sailed into Meereen and said "Ok, I've got the ships -- where's the army?"


----------



## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

BrettStah said:


> What a good episode! Anyone major characters missing besides The Hound and Brienne?
> 
> Just thought of another - the Night's King.


No check-in on Jorah either


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Aerys
> 
> Interesting that you came up with Aegon. You sure you haven't read the books?


Nope. I just knew it wasn't "Aeron", and the closest thing my brain locked onto was "Aegon". Aerys was the name I was looking for.



DavidTigerFan said:


> I still can't believe that the rumors say there there are only 13 episodes left here.


Is there only one more season? I thought there was to be two.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Odds Bodkins said:


> No check-in on Jorah either


I feel that Jorah and Daario's storylines are done. Be surprised if we ever see them again.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

No surprises last night except for Arya back in Westeros to dispatch Walder Frey. But I don't understand how she can swap faces without access to the House of Black & White in Braavos.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I guess the same way her mentor did it in the earlier seasons.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I think that being an assasin of the House of Black & White includes the knowledge of how to create the faces.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smbaker said:


> Is there only one more season? I thought there was to be two.


Two seasons, but at least one of them will not be full-length. So they say.
[edit]


> In an exclusive interview with Variety, showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss said they are weighing wrapping up the Emmy-winning saga of Westeros and the battle for the Iron Throne with just 13 more episodes once this sixth season is over: seven episodes for season 7; six for the eighth and potential final season.
> 
> I think were down to our final 13 episodes after this season. Were heading into the final lap, said Benioff. Thats the guess, though nothing is yet set in stone, but thats what were looking at.
> 
> Sources later clarified those exact numbers were premature, given that the showrunners are now just beginning to outline their plans, but said that any upcoming seasons may be shorter than the full 10 episodes of seasons past.


http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-end-date-season-8-1201752746/


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> He says he loves them, but I don't buy it. It's his creepy way to get to the Iron Throne. Speaking of which, that was a first for him to actually admit, right?


I think LF made a big miscalculation. He threw-in the Iron Throne as the goal thinking that this would entice Sansa to marry him. As with most power-hungry people, he failed to realize that not everyone shares that hunger.



ClutchBrake said:


> I believe Tywin first spoke of it when he asked Tyrion to guess how much gold had come out of the mines in the last two years. Tyrion asked if he wanted the guess in tons or ounces. Tywin told him it didn't matter, the number was the same either way.
> 
> Being broke is also why the Lannisters had to cozy up to the Tyrells.


Two details that I recall differently: It was Cersei, not Tyrion; and it was 3 years, not 2. I could be wrong about both!

Tywin and the throne are in debt up to their eyeballs to the Iron Bank. They relied on the Tyrells for money and - more importantly with winter HERE - food. The Lannisters are now completely surrounded and pretty much cut-off.



spear said:


> I believe Sansa was smiling when they were hailing Jon. She only had that look after she saw Littlefinger, so I had the same interpretation as TonyD79 -- that she was worried he would now try to eliminate Jon.


I will continue to disagree with all of you. I think Sansa was happy that things didn't turn out the way LF thought they would and was gloating.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I find it a little unbelievable that Cersei would be crowned as queen after what she did. That would essentially be like Osama Bin Laden being made POTUS after masterminding 9/11.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

RegBarc said:


> The music associated with Cersei this episode was nothing short of the best music I've heard in this series. Amazingly well done.


This. The music throughout this episode was (hauntingly) beautiful. :up:

While Cersei has the Iron Throne, her position is weak. The Lannisters control the Rock, the Riverlands (tenuous with weakened Freys) and I guess the Stormlands (I forget who is currently there). She has the army of angry queens (Dany, Yara, Olenna & Ellaria) on one side which includes Dorne, the Reach, the Essos forces and three dragons. On the other, the North and the Vale are allied against her. Who can she align herself with?

Perhaps Euron will reverse and try to wed Cersei. While Dany's fleet is impressive, the Dothraki and Unsullied are not naval forces capable of fighting at sea, and the Iron Fleet could do a lot of damage before they make landfall. Of course, fire-breathing air support evens the odds somewhat.

I wonder if Petyr is wishing he'd waited five minutes longer before taking out the Bolton forces.

I replayed the audio several times at the Tower of Joy scene. Lyanna whispered "his name is.....(inaudible)....if Robert finds out, he'll kill him." Other than "Rhaegar II" what name could be so bad?

Howland Reed still has a part to play. His daughter is with Bran. Whether you think Jon's father was confirmed last night or not, we know it's not Ned. So Ned came out of the tower with a baby - how far did Howland go to help him keep his secret?

I thought the silliest scene was at the Citadel. How could they possibly think Jeor Mormont was still Lord Commander? Jon Snow's been recruiting all over the North, including Bear Island! Characters all over Westeros are aware that Jon Snow was Lord Commander. Are we to believe that no ravens have made it to Oldtown with the news? Ridiculous. Do they think Stannis is still alive? I thought this place was the center of all knowledge.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> Jon is not fireproof. See season 1 where he burned his hand killing the dead wight.
> 
> Tapatic Tapcrapick Tapatalk


Maybe he's just Dragon-fire proof. The fire that Dany was in was the birth of the dragons, so that was dragon related too.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Maybe you have to believe you're a Targaryan and fire proof before you are.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Maybe you have to believe you're a Targaryan and fire proof before you are.


Or attend a Tony Robbins seminar.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I find it a little unbelievable that Cersei would be crowned as queen after what she did. That would essentially be like Osama Bin Laden being made POTUS after masterminding 9/11.


My impression is that anyone who would have had anything negative to say about the crowning was dead, so long live the queen! 

Having yourself put on the Iron Throne is a far cry from keeping it. Half the world is about to be on her doorstep looking to oust her and who does she have? A very well trained army with her brother at the head but not nearly the numbers she will be facing from all sides.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Two details that I recall differently: It was Cersei, not Tyrion; and it was 3 years, not 2. I could be wrong about both!


Nope. I have no good recollection. You are probably right on both! I just remember the part about the answer being the same.


----------



## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> I feel that Jorah and Daario's storylines are done. Be surprised if we ever see them again.


Not quite sure about Jorah, we still have the greyscale issue to deal with. His house and in particular his cousin Lyanna Moromont have had a pretty big role this season so there may be a reunion of sorts, but he still does have a price on his head.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> Maybe he's just Dragon-fire proof. The fire that Dany was in was the birth of the dragons, so that was dragon related too.


Dany was unaffected by the hot bath in an early episode (s1e01?) And burned down the building with the khals in this season. Those weren't dragon fire.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Crazy episode. It just flew by. I cannot wait until next season. As a book reader, I was used to knowing what was going to happen. The unknown was a nice change of pace.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

If winter is as badass as they think, and what with all of the battles and burnings and sieges, I can imagine starvation is a bigger risk than white walkers.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MacThor said:


> I thought the silliest scene was at the Citadel. How could they possibly think Jeor Mormont was still Lord Commander? Jon Snow's been recruiting all over the North, including Bear Island! Characters all over Westeros are aware that Jon Snow was Lord Commander. Are we to believe that no ravens have made it to Oldtown with the news? Ridiculous. Do they think Stannis is still alive? I thought this place was the center of all knowledge.


My guess is that the Snow administration didn't file the proper paperwork with the Maesters...


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

I think I read the first two books, and then decided I wanted to experience the show before continuing. Now I will go back and read the books (I may start over), and I'll probably figure out a "re-watch" schedule of the show, timed to lead up to the start of the next season.


----------



## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

So at the end... I assume all these major events occurred at roughly the same time? 

1.) Who knows about Jon Snow becoming King? 
2.) Who knows about Cerasi becoming Queen?
3.) Who knows that Mother of Dragons is sailing towards Kings Landing? (I assume)
4.) How big is the Lannsiters army now?
5.) How does the highgarden mother play into things? Dorne? I assume they are going after the Lannisters as well? 
6.) Does the highgarden mother know about her whole bloodline being murdered?

I assume Littlefinger will screw over the starks and cause them to lose out.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

pendragn said:


> Crazy episode. It just flew by. I cannot wait until next season. As a book reader, I was used to knowing what was going to happen. The unknown was a nice change of pace.


Yea I enjoyed it too other than my wife and coworker asking what's going to happen next.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

At least Loras didn't have to go out in public with that forehead tattoo.


----------



## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> My guess is that the Snow administration didn't file the proper paperwork with the Maesters...


Don't forget that the stores are not all in chronological order, this may have happened while Jon Snow was still the Lord Commander.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

smbaker said:


> Nope. I just knew it wasn't "Aeron", and the closest thing my brain locked onto was "Aegon". Aerys was the name I was looking for.


In all fairness, I did say that I did not have an encyclopedic knowledge of his history.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I don't get why anyone thinks Sansa should feel slighted. Granted, Jon isn't a great military commander ... especially considering how his previous command ended ... but Sansa didn't save the day with her superior military prowess. In fact, she didn't save the day at all ... Littlefinger and the knights of the Vale did that. All Sansa did was write a letter.

Arya seems to have not only made it to Westeros, but all the way out to the Twins in a very short amount of time. She must have the same travel plan Varys does.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

MacThor said:


> I replayed the audio several times at the Tower of Joy scene. Lyanna whispered "his name is.....(inaudible)....if Robert finds out, he'll kill him." Other than "Rhaegar II" what name could be so bad?


I missed that Jon probably was given a Targaeryan name. A lot of them seem to end in "on," so maybe "Jon" is a nickname for something more dragonish.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

How much time do you think elapsed between when Arya left Bravos and the events of this episode? There's no way for us to know,a s far as I can recall. 

I prefer that they skip over long travel days/weeks/months whenever possible, personally.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> Arya seems to have not only made it to Westeros, but all the way out to the Twins in a very short amount of time. She must have the same travel plan Varys does.


We don't know when all the different scenes are happening in time. So Arya leaving for Westros could have been months ago in time though it was only one show ago.

Of course, to get the timing to work for Varys we somehow need to jump ahead in the future from the destruction of the sept (since grandmother Tyrell has to find out about that event, then get summoned to Dorne AFTER Varys has already arrived with his plans...) then we have to jump ahead in time again so that he has time to travel back to be with the fleet...

OK so it is really pretty much impossible to reconcile the timing of all this stuff. Just think of all the stuff that will be happening during the next year while we wait for an update!


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

He didn't have to travel back if the fleet made a quick stop to Dorne on the way.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NatasNJ said:


> 6.) Does the highgarden mother know about her whole bloodline being murdered?


Judging from her conversation with the Head Snake, she must...


wedgecon said:


> Don't forget that the stores are not all in chronological order, this may have happened while Jon Snow was still the Lord Commander.


??? That's the point...they don't know that Jon is Lord Commander; they still have Jeor Mormont as High Commander.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

NatasNJ said:


> 5.) How does the highgarden mother play into things? Dorne? I assume they are going after the Lannisters as well?
> 6.) Does the highgarden mother know about her whole bloodline being murdered?


I think you need to re-watch the scene in Dorne. (That's OK, lots of us zone out for the Dorne parts) 

Olenna Tyrell's alliance with Dorne is purely for vengeance on the Lannisters. "Fire and Blood" according to Varys.

Also, she said "She (Cersei) murdered my son...my granddaughter...my grandson." So she knew.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> I missed that Jon probably was given a Targaeryan name. A lot of them seem to end in "on," so maybe "Jon" is a nickname for something more dragonish.


Yes, probably "Aerjon". Or maybe "AirJordan".


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Judging from her conversation with the Head Snake, she must...
> 
> ??? That's the point...they don't know that Jon is Lord Commander; they still have Jeor Mormont as High Commander.


Exactly. The mutiny at Craster's Keep was a looooooooong time ago. For the Citadel not to know about that, especially considering everything else that has happened at the wall/in the north since, is just...

it's.....

Inconceivable!!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shakhari said:


> I don't get why anyone thinks Sansa should feel slighted. Granted, Jon isn't a great military commander ... especially considering how his previous command ended ... but Sansa didn't save the day with her superior military prowess. In fact, she didn't save the day at all ... Littlefinger and the knights of the Vale did that. All Sansa did was write a letter.


It's not about who was responsible for winning the battle. It's about who is the rightful heir. According to Westerosi tradition, a full-blooded heir should be in line before a bastard, even if the full-blooded heir is a woman. Thus, Sansa's claim should be above Jon's. (Of course, we know that Bran is still alive and therefore he's the rightful heir, but none of the people at Winterfell know that.)



Shakhari said:


> Arya seems to have not only made it to Westeros, but all the way out to the Twins in a very short amount of time. She must have the same travel plan Varys does.


If you look at a map, the distance from Braavos to The Twins really isn't that great. If Arya took a ship and sailed all the way into The Bite and dropped her off there, then The Twins is very close. Plus, it was two episodes ago when we saw Arya leave Braavos, so that's pretty realistic. And Varys left Meereen a couple episodes ago as well. So the only thing that's unrealistic is Varys getting back to Meereen to sail with the fleet after meeting with Ilyria and the Queen of Thorns in Dorne. But if, as someone already said, the fleet already stopped off in Dorne and picked him up, then he didn't really travel far at all.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Not quite. We got _+L=J confirmation. For some reason they had Lyanna whisper the part that might have confirmed R. I'm not sure if they did that because they think they can draw out the suspense (fat chance, it is almost impossible for it to be anyone other than Rhaegar), or if it was a plot contrivance to keep Bran from figuring out the father yet.


I think the main point there was to hold back Jon's true name for an epic reveal at some later date. Bran probably knows all, the show runners just don't want *us* to know that tidbit yet.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I would argue against that. She was defending herself...the High Squirrel was using Tommen to kill Cersei (how do you think her trial was meant to end?), and she counter-played him (rather excessively, true, but still). I think Tommen may have realized what his actions had led to, and couldn't take it.
> 
> Not that he was a mustachio-twirling villain; just a complete idiot who allowed himself to be manipulated, and had no clue he was being used to judicially murder his own mother. I suspect at that moment he realized that because of what the High Squirrel tricked him into doing, something terrible was going to have happened one way or the other. (Ironically, I think that if the Squirrel's plan had worked, Tommen would have balked and turned against him rather than see his mother executed, which makes Cersei's action unnecessary...)
> 
> That's how I saw his suicide, anyway...


As the after-credits commentary suggested, I think she's at least to blame for leaving him alone in the wake of it all, to go and play petty revenge in the dungeon. She even pulled the Mountain away for that task, rather than leaving him to guard the king in a very chaotic and vulnerable moment.



DavidTigerFan said:


> Maybe you have to believe you're a Targaryan and fire proof before you are.


The books addressed that with a character that never made the series.


Spoiler



It takes more than just belief and a few drops of Targaryen blood to avoid becoming a crispy snack for dragons!


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> It's not about who was responsible for winning the battle. It's about who is the rightful heir. According to Westerosi tradition, a full-blooded heir should be in line before a bastard, even if the full-blooded heir is a woman. Thus, Sansa's claim should be above Jon's. (Of course, we know that Bran is still alive and therefore he's the rightful heir, but none of the people at Winterfell know that.)


But had Sansa given any indication sure WANTS to be in charge?

Even if she is the rightful heir and she knows she's the rightful heir I think she'd be happy to hand it over.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I will continue to disagree with all of you. I think Sansa was happy that things didn't turn out the way LF thought they would and was gloating.


I'll have to re-watch but I thought the smile went away as the speech progressed. Not that she was unhappy, just not sure.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Would Sansa have the ability to de-bastardize Jon?


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

RegBarc said:


> The music associated with Cersei this episode was nothing short of the best music I've heard in this series. Amazingly well done.


Maybe it was Talisa playing the harp.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

dcheesi said:


> I think the main point there was to hold back Jon's true name for an epic reveal at some later date. Bran probably knows all, the show runners just don't want *us* to know that tidbit yet. As the after-credits commentary suggested, I think she's at least to blame for leaving him alone in the wake of it all, to go and play petty revenge in the dungeon. She even pulled the Mountain away for that task, rather than leaving him to guard the king in a very chaotic and vulnerable moment. The books addressed that with a character that never made the series. * SPOILER *


 who


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

BrettStah said:


> Would Sansa have the ability to de-bastardize Jon?


She could marry him.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

BrettStah said:


> Would Sansa have the ability to de-bastardize Jon?


I've been wondering that, too.


----------



## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> Would Sansa have the ability to de-bastardize Jon?


I thought only a royal decree could do it.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

john4200 said:


> She could marry him.


That turns a bastard into a non-bastard? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

Ramsay's father de-bastardized Ramsay (without marrying him).


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Didn't Roose Bolton debadstardize Ramsay?


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

RegBarc said:


> I thought only a royal decree could do it.


Ah, so Ramsay's father didn't do it himself, but had King Tommen do it?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The father has to request it of the king and the king can grant or not. The father isn't alive, in this case.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

BrettStah said:


> That turns a bastard into a non-bastard?


That is not what I meant. If Sansa were the only surviving Stark, and he marries her, then he becomes Lord of Winterfell. Maybe.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Two thoughts. 

Cersie isn't all that tore up about Tommen. He did throw her under the bus when he decreed no more trial by combat. 

Perhaps a previously unknown document surfaces where Rob legitimized Jon in the event of Rob's death and no other heirs.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The thing Cersei was wearing looked almost military.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

BeanMeScot said:


> The thing Cersei was wearing looked almost military.


Perhaps she was shooting for something like this:


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> The thing Cersei was wearing looked almost military.


Yeah, they were pretty obvious about drawing parallels between her and Tommen getting dressed.

Which makes you wonder...DID she plan that she would take over from Tommen that day?


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

I'm not sure how she would know he would jump out the window. If she wanted to guarantee he was dead she could have had the Mountain kill him, or more likely just not stopped him from going to the trial.


----------



## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> Ah, so Ramsay's father didn't do it himself, but had King Tommen do it?


Correct, Ramsay was legitimized by royal decree, but that was sought by his father from the king. They may or may not have addressed this legality in the show, and I am just drawing a blank right now.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> Two thoughts.
> 
> Cersie isn't all that tore up about Tommen. He did throw her under the bus when he decreed no more trial by combat.


I think she is to the point where she's totally devoid of emotion. She lost Joffrey. She lost Marcella. She knew from the prophecy that she'd lose Tommen. She's suffered and been tortured. She's been humiliated. At this point, I think she basically just has the attitude of "F*** them all."


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

RegBarc said:


> Correct, Ramsay was legitimized by royal decree, but that was sought by his father from the king. They may or may not have addressed this legality in the show, and I am just drawing a blank right now.


Either way, there's nobody to make that request on Jon's behalf, and there's no chance that Cersei would grant it, so it's kind of moot.


----------



## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

Robin said:


> Yeah, they were pretty obvious about drawing parallels between her and Tommen getting dressed.
> 
> Which makes you wonder...DID she plan that she would take over from Tommen that day?


I think there was a point this season where Cersei resigned herself to the fact that the prophecy delivered by the witch in Season 4 was going to come true and there was nothing she could do to stop it. She also probably assumed the other part of the prophecy was about Margaery taking over ("there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear") , but that could also refer to Dany.


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> If winter is as badass as they think, and what with all of the battles and burnings and sieges, I can imagine starvation is a bigger risk than white walkers.


I was thunking the same thing.


----------



## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Either way, there's nobody to make that request on Jon's behalf, and there's no chance that Cersei would grant it, so it's kind of moot.


Yeah, I don't think there's any other way to legitimize someone. But then again, the King in the North doesn't need a noble name apparently (as all his banners made clear when swearing oaths of fealty to him).


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

BrettStah said:


> I'm not sure how she would know he would jump out the window. If she wanted to guarantee he was dead she could have had the Mountain kill him, or more likely just not stopped him from going to the trial.


They've gone on and one about her love for her children so I don't think she intended for him to die. Maybe it's because she was going in to battle?


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Either way, there's nobody to make that request on Jon's behalf, and there's no chance that Cersei would grant it, so it's kind of moot.


But The King of the North...


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Are all the Lannister kids dead now?


Yeah, and the witch's prophecy has now been fulfilled:



> Cersei: I've been promised to the prince. When will we marry?
> 
> Witch: You will never wed the prince. You will wed the king.
> 
> ...


Prophecy #2 could actually come to fruition twice. It will be interesting to see if Arya gets to Cersei before Daenerys. Based on the most recent update of Arya's list, it's just her and the Mountain left.

I guess we'll have to see how badly she wants to go home versus get revenge first.



cheesesteak said:


> Benjen can't go past the wall but he could have given Bran and Whatshername a horse or called the North's equivalent of a taxi instead of just dumping them on the side of the road.


Either that, or stay with Bran while Meera went to the Wall to get help.


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## bobino (Jul 24, 2002)

wedgecon said:


> Not quite sure about Jorah, we still have the greyscale issue to deal with. His house and in particular his cousin Lyanna Moromont have had a pretty big role this season so there may be a reunion of sorts, but he still does have a price on his head.


Jorah was pardoned by Robert for spying on Daenerys (giving info to Varys). This was revealed when Barristan Selmy found the pardon and confronted Jorah. It lead to his banishment by Daenerys.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I find it a little unbelievable that Cersei would be crowned as queen after what she did. That would essentially be like Osama Bin Laden being made POTUS after masterminding 9/11.


I don't think most people know she was responsible. And anyone who does most likely either does not have the power to stand up to her on that issue or prefers Cersei to have power more than the Sparrows.



MacThor said:


> I thought the silliest scene was at the Citadel. How could they possibly think Jeor Mormont was still Lord Commander? Jon Snow's been recruiting all over the North, including Bear Island! Characters all over Westeros are aware that Jon Snow was Lord Commander. Are we to believe that no ravens have made it to Oldtown with the news? Ridiculous. Do they think Stannis is still alive? I thought this place was the center of all knowledge.


I think the point of them not knowing was to illustrate how inwardly focused the Citadel was. I'm sure news made it to Oldtown, but what little attention the Citadel paid to the outside world was only via official word, and they only cared about that for the purpose of making an entry in a history book.

I thought Sam was kind of rude to the driver. He just jumped off without saying "thanks" or "goodbye". Hopefully he at least paid him well.



DevdogAZ said:


> So the only thing that's unrealistic is Varys getting back to Meereen to sail with the fleet after meeting with Ilyria and the Queen of Thorns in Dorne.


There was no indication of how much time had passed between Varys meeting with Ellaria and Olenna, and Daenerys setting sail for Westeros. Presumably Varys wouldn't have stuck around Dorne waiting for something bad to happen in King's Landing that would cause Olenna to want to seek revenge on the Lannisters via an alliance with Daenerys. So he must have just recently arrived in Dorne, and was seeking their allegiance when the events in King's Landing unfolded.

Given that the show didn't appear to have ignored how much time it would have taken Varys to have gotten to Dorne, I doubt they would have ignored that regarding his return.

It's also possible Varys met up with them in Dorne before they sailed for King's Landing, but I don't think it would be unrealistic for it to turn out to have happened the other way.

At the very least, Daenerys would have wanted assurances that Dorne was on her side before sailing for them. Maybe Varys sent a messenger, but even a messenger would have taken time to have gotten back to Meereen. And if they wanted to keep the alliance a secret for as long as possible, perhaps making people think Daenerys was sailing for Dorne in order to attack it first, Varys might not have trusted anyone else to bring that message back to Meereen.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The real question about Jon...probably the most important question in the world at this point...is did his parent just run away, or elope? Because if they married, he is not only a legitimate heir of the Starks (although only in line, since Ned's kids would come first), he is THE legitimate heir of the Targaryans. And the field of competitors has been pretty much cleared!


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

RegBarc said:


> The music associated with Cersei this episode was nothing short of the best music I've heard in this series. Amazingly well done.


Yah, I love operatic music behind somebody doing harm to people.

-smak-


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Is next season the final season? Or are they planning on doing two more?

I know they need to resolve all this king/queen stuff, but they also need to resolve the whole white walker thing too. Seems like a lot for a single season.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The real question about Jon...probably the most important question in the world at this point...is did his parent just run away, or elope? Because if they married, he is not only a legitimate heir of the Starks (although only in line, since Ned's kids would come first), he is THE legitimate heir of the Targaryans. And the field of competitors has been pretty much cleared!


It will also be interesting to see how Daenerys takes this news. Will she try to make a deal with Jon to let him be King in the North, while she becomes Queen in the South? Will Jon agree to give up his claim if she promises to use her army to help fight the White Walkers? Or will she be willing to give up her claim, and use her power to support Jon's?

Jon is younger than Daenerys, so perhaps from Daenerys' point-of-view, she is still the rightful heir.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

BitbyBlit said:


> Jon is younger than Daenerys, so perhaps from Daenerys' point-of-view, she is still the rightful heir.


Nope, Jon is several months older than Dany. Which makes her a funny kind of Aunt to him.

But since Dany is female, it is irrelevant. Even if Dany were male, I don't know that age would be the deciding factor. It would probably be decided by their fathers, and the status of their fathers when they were born (assuming both were legitimate).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Doesn't it also matter that Dany's father was king, while Jon's father never attained that title? So technically, Dany is the heir of the king, and Jon is the heir of the (deceased) heir.

But of course, the most important item is whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. If not, then Jon is still a bastard and not in line for anything.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

bobino said:


> Jorah was pardoned by Robert for spying on Daenerys (giving info to Varys). This was revealed when Barristan Selmy found the pardon and confronted Jorah. It lead to his banishment by Daenerys.


I hate being the one that corrects minor details...but it seems that it's a job nobody wants!

I don't think he found the pardon, I think that Tywin sent details of the pardon to them to disrupt Dany's inner circle and sow seeds of mistrust.

Just another little thing to show how brilliant Tywin really was. As Olenna said, it's not often that the truth resembles the legend.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Nope, Jon is several months older than Dany. Which makes her a funny kind of Aunt to him.


Ah, okay. I was confusing what happened to Elia with her mother. I thought her mother had been killed, and she was smuggled out of King's Landing as an infant, when in fact her mother, pregnant with her, was smuggled out.



john4200 said:


> But since Dany is female, it is irrelevant.


That's why I was saying that from Daenerys' point-of-view, she might still consider herself the rightful heir. From her point-of-view, gender shouldn't matter in terms of who has a claim to the throne.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> Cersie isn't all that tore up about Tommen. He did throw her under the bus when he decreed no more trial by combat.


Yeah, she told Qyburn to burn Tommen and spread his ashes over the Sept of Baelor. As if that is where he belongs.


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

smak said:


> Yah, I love operatic music behind somebody doing harm to people.
> 
> -smak-


Yeah the GoT subreddits pointed it out pretty much right when the episode ended. I think the isolated soundtrack got up on YouTube within an hour.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Yeah, she told Qyburn to burn Tommen and spread his ashes over the Sept of Baelor. As if that is where he belongs.


She said he belonged with his siblings. Since Joffrey and Marcella were buried in the Sept, and now they've been burned and are nothing but ashes, she wants Tommen's to join them and have his ashes spread there as well.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The real question about Jon...probably the most important question in the world at this point...is did his parent just run away, or elope? Because if they married, he is not only a legitimate heir of the Starks (although only in line, since Ned's kids would come first), he is THE legitimate heir of the Targaryans. And the field of competitors has been pretty much cleared!





DevdogAZ said:


> Doesn't it also matter that Dany's father was king, while Jon's father never attained that title? So technically, Dany is the heir of the king, and Jon is the heir of the (deceased) heir.
> 
> But of course, the most important item is whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. If not, then Jon is still a bastard and not in line for anything.


Rhaegar Targaryen was married to Elia Martell of Dorne, the whole plot of the Viper and the Mountain battle/duel/trial by combat. Danny (only daughter of the mad king) hadn't been born until the end of the rebellion. Rhaegar had been married off years before (since he had no Targaryen sisters to wed at the time, Targaryen's always marry siblings to keep line pure) and had at least 1 child with his wife already. So R+L=J has some legitimacy issues in the Irone Throne claim, but who doesn't at this point.. So why not him?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

robojerk said:


> Rhaegar Targaryen was married to Elia Martell of Dorne, the whole plot of the Viper and the Mountain battle/duel/trial by combat. Danny (only daughter of the mad king) hadn't been born until the end of the rebellion. Rhaegar had been married off years before and had at least 1 child with his wife already. So R+L=J has some legitimacy issues in the Irone Throne claim, but who doesn't at this point.. So why not him?


I don't know what the Westerosi rules are regarding polygamy. Is there any chance that Rhaegar was secretly married to Lyanna even though he was already married to Elia?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't know what the Westerosi rules are regarding polygamy. Is there any chance that Rhaegar was secretly married to Lyanna even though he was already married to Elia?


http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Polygamy#Polygamy_in_Westeros



> In Westeros, for both the highborn and lowborn, marriage is chiefly between two people, a man and a woman. The Faith of the Seven does not permit polygamy and considers it a sin


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

bobino said:


> Jorah was pardoned by Robert for spying on Daenerys (giving info to Varys). This was revealed when Barristan Selmy found the pardon and confronted Jorah. It lead to his banishment by Daenerys.


Good Catch, I had forgotten all about that.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

robojerk said:


> http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Polygamy#Polygamy_in_Westeros


So this means Jon is a bastard either way. I just find it hard to believe that GRRM would have the identity of Jon's parents be such a big secret and wait so long to reveal it if it wasn't going to have some significant impact on his prospects and on the plot.

Is the big reveal just that he has both Stark (Ice) and Targaryen (Fire) blood? Is that really all that significant, in the grand scheme of things? If he's a bastard, then he doesn't really have a claim to be an heir to any Stark or Targaryen titles, so that seems like it would be really anticlimactic if that were the case.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I like the pic on the polygamy page..










> King Aegon I Targaryen had taken both of his sisters to wife.


So since the Targaryon's get a pass on incest, maybe Rhaegar Jon can get a pass on his parents polygamy since it's in the family history.. Also Aegon the first's younger sister (I presume his 2nd wife, since tradition said he had to marry his older sister) produced his heir.


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## Royster (May 24, 2002)

MacThor said:


> I thought the silliest scene was at the Citadel. How could they possibly think Jeor Mormont was still Lord Commander? Jon Snow's been recruiting all over the North, including Bear Island! Characters all over Westeros are aware that Jon Snow was Lord Commander. Are we to believe that no ravens have made it to Oldtown with the news? Ridiculous. Do they think Stannis is still alive? I thought this place was the center of all knowledge.


Knowledge is different from News.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Royster said:


> Knowledge is different from News.


True. But since the mutiny, there has been the battle at the Wall, Stannis' defeat of Mance, Stannis' defeat by Ramsay, an election of Lord Commander (which required ravens to Eastwatch and Shadow Tower). Everyone else in Westeros knew Jon was LC. The Citadel, which is raven central, didn't get the memo?

It's a minor nit to be sure.

I also didn't understand why they killed Pycelle separately. They could have let him die in the blast.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> So this means Jon is a bastard either way. I just find it hard to believe that GRRM would have the identity of Jon's parents be such a big secret and wait so long to reveal it if it wasn't going to have some significant impact on his prospects and on the plot.
> 
> Is the big reveal just that he has both Stark (Ice) and Targaryen (Fire) blood? Is that really all that significant, in the grand scheme of things? If he's a bastard, then he doesn't really have a claim to be an heir to any Stark or Targaryen titles, so that seems like it would be really anticlimactic if that were the case.


Some Starks can Warg. Some Targaryens bond with dragons. Maybe having the blood of both allows him to Warg into a dragon.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

goblue97 said:


> I'll have to re-watch but I thought the smile went away as the speech progressed. Not that she was unhappy, just not sure.


As she watched littlefinger. It was her gaze at him that disturbed her smile.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Robin said:


> Dany was unaffected by the hot bath in an early episode (s1e01?) And burned down the building with the khals in this season. Those weren't dragon fire.


And when she picked up the hot eggs in mid season 1.


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

Shakhari said:


> Arya seems to have not only made it to Westeros, but all the way out to the Twins in a very short amount of time. She must have the same travel plan Varys does.


Why does everyone assume all these things are happening at the same time when in different parts of that land?


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I hate being the one that corrects minor details...but it seems that it's a job nobody wants!
> 
> I don't think he found the pardon, I think that Tywin sent details of the pardon to them to disrupt Dany's inner circle and sow seeds of mistrust.
> 
> Just another little thing to show how brilliant Tywin really was. As Olenna said, it's not often that the truth resembles the legend.


The pardon from Robert Baratheon was sent to Jorah by Varys and hand delivered to him just before the first attempt on Danerys' life - the wine seller who tried to poison her. He pretty much pissed the pardon away when he stepped in and stopped the assassination.

It's only a minor detail but no reason for you to be the only one to correct them.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Aeron, Aemon,.... Aejon


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Legitimacy doesn't matter to anyone who's left. Power matters. Jon has been declared King in the North. He has an army and several houses behind him.

There's only a few players left in the Game. None will care about Jon's _legitimacy_. Dany may care if he has Targaryan _blood_. But there are no other Targaryans to line up behind him if he is legitimate. The other players will only care if they can beat him, align with him or come to some accord.

Also, that Targaryan blood may come with a _Power_ of it's own. The impact of Jon's parentage will be aligning with Dany or a special Power.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

And remember that Dany cannot have children. Even if she takes Westeros, she needs someone of Targaryen blood to be her heir.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Doesn't it also matter that Dany's father was king, while Jon's father never attained that title? So technically, Dany is the heir of the king, and Jon is the heir of the (deceased) heir.


No. If we assume that Westeros uses the same rules of inheritance that the British Crown has traditionally used (which is a safe assumption based on what we've seen), then Jon's claim as Rhaegar's son (if legitimized) would be stronger than Dany's.

Using the British crown as an example, if Charles were to pass away before the Queen, William would be the heir to the Throne, with his children and brother behind him. William's uncle Andrew wouldn't suddenly leapfrog Harry and William and William's children just because he's the son of the Queen and William is only her grandson.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

3D said:


> Some Starks can Warg. Some Targaryens bond with dragons. Maybe having the blood of both allows him to Warg into a dragon.


O. M. F. G.  :up:


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Anybody have a problem with how Jon handled Mellisandre? banishing her seemed like a slap on the wrist. And Davos simply let her go after all his ranting and raving seemed strange.

I also need to mention that it was great seeing the look of joy/wonder as Sam saw that the Citadel was as grand as his wildest imagination.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Anybody have a problem with how Jon handled Mellisandre? banishing her seemed like a slap on the wrist. And Davos simply let her go after all his ranting and raving seemed strange.
> 
> I also need to mention that it was great seeing the look of joy/wonder as Sam saw that the Citadel was as grand as his wildest imagination.


Yeah, it seemed a little bet hedging. Hmm, maybe the Lord of Light is helping out.

Anyway, at least there's a chance of some more nekkidness (keep the necklace on please)


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Maybe a thanks for bringing me (back) into this world.

Sort of like how Robb didn't hang his mother for treason.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Robin said:


> Plus Cersei constantly underestimated his allegiance to Margary. Losing her was also a huge blow.


And on top of that, I'm fairly certain he knew his mother was responsible. The second most important woman in his life killed the most important woman in his life. I think that's what ultimately pushed him over the edge.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Anybody have a problem with how Jon handled Mellisandre? banishing her seemed like a slap on the wrist...


Did she help out in any way in the battle of the bastards? She said that Jon would need her help in the upcoming war but she didn't break a sweat when he needed her.

Good riddance to Tommen. I'm glad he jumped. He was an easily swayed weakling. Any man, let alone the damn king, who allows his mother to be imprisoned, beaten and made to endure the walk of shame should have been thrown out the window. He also let the love of his life to be imprisoned. Chump.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Didn't she also say, years ago, that in her vision she saw Jon Snow walking amongst the flames at Winterfell? Or am I misremembering that?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> He also let the love of his life to be imprisoned. Chump.


Well, I don't know if "love of his life" is right. He's still just a kid...probably "super-hot woman who's willing to sleep with him" is the closest he can come.

But your point still stands.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Anybody have a problem with how Jon handled Mellisandre? banishing her seemed like a slap on the wrist. And Davos simply let her go after all his ranting and raving seemed strange.


He should have forced the Red woman to take the Black.



Anubys said:


> I also need to mention that it was great seeing the look of joy/wonder as Sam saw that the Citadel was as grand as his wildest imagination.


And the library...


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Anybody have a problem with how Jon handled Mellisandre? banishing her seemed like a slap on the wrist. And Davos simply let her go after all his ranting and raving seemed strange..


She did resurrect Jon from the dead. So her banishment seems fair, and Jon's warning about never returning was on point.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Anybody have a problem with how Jon handled Mellisandre? banishing her seemed like a slap on the wrist. And Davos simply let her go after all his ranting and raving seemed strange.


Banishing her seems an odd choice, if he was swayed by her argument that she's a weapon against the Night King. Davos doesn't get justice, and Jon doesn't have the weapon.

Davos is dutiful. I doubt he'd harm her against his commander's orders.



> I also need to mention that it was great seeing the look of joy/wonder as Sam saw that the Citadel was as grand as his wildest imagination.


Maybe he can find the finished manuscripts for The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring in that library.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Also, I wonder why Melisandre never proposed to Jon before the battle, "You can have sex with me and father a shadow baby that can kill Ramsay with no other loss of life."


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ct1 said:


> And the library...


Speaking of the library, what was up with all the chains hanging down in front of all the books?


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of the library, what was up with all the chains hanging down in front of all the books?


Books used to be expensive...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MacThor said:


> Also, I wonder why Melisandre never proposed to Jon before the battle, "You can have sex with me and father a shadow baby that can kill Ramsay with no other loss of life."


I thought that required kings blood. Maybe Rhaegar's blood in Jon would work, but does Melisandre know that?


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> So this means Jon is a bastard either way. I just find it hard to believe that GRRM would have the identity of Jon's parents be such a big secret and wait so long to reveal it if it wasn't going to have some significant impact on his prospects and on the plot.
> 
> Is the big reveal just that he has both Stark (Ice) and Targaryen (Fire) blood? Is that really all that significant, in the grand scheme of things? If he's a bastard, then he doesn't really have a claim to be an heir to any Stark or Targaryen titles, so that seems like it would be really anticlimactic if that were the case.


At the very least, he is a person that can unite the two houses. The Starks are the house most concerned with the approaching White Walkers, and Daenerys is the one with the forces most capable of stopping them.

For all Petyr's cunning, I think he underestimated the threat of the White Walkers and overestimated the strength of the Lannisters. All the other houses are now against the Lannisters and/or allied with Daenerys. (Except possibly the Freys. But we'll have to see what the ramifications of Walder and his sons' deaths have for that house. And, as Jaime pointed out, they aren't much use to the Lannisters anyway.) The events he set in motion have ultimately ended with the Lannisters being in an extremely weak position, thus making it easier for Daenerys to stake her claim to the Iron Throne. And once she has established herself in King's Landing, it will be far harder for him to take the throne for himself than it would have been with Cersei, Tommen, or even Joffery in charge.

The only remaining potential threat to Daenerys are the Starks and the Vale, but I don't think they have the desire to fight her over the throne. And even if they did, they know that there is a greater threat to Westeros than her. Petyr could try to convince Jon to stake his claim to the throne (once his true parentage became more widely known), but it would be a long shot to try to pit the North against Daenerys. Although, if there were to be a war between them, it would be interesting to see how Theon once again handled the choice between allegiance to the Starks and the Greyjoys.

Given that attempting to use his manipulative skills on the Night King would likely be an exercise in futility, Petyr's best hope now is that the united forces of Westeros are able to defeat the White Walkers, but only barely. Of course, if Bran is able to learn from the Trees of Knowledge about Petyr's involvement in everything, he might not survive long enough to attempt anything anyway.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Books used to be expensive...


But they weren't preventing anyone from taking books off the shelf. They appeared to just be short pieces of chains hanging down, only anchored at the top. And even if they were tight and anchored at both ends, they weren't spaced closely enough to prevent books from being slid out between the chains. A true theft prevention system would need to be horizontal, not vertical.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Maybe he's just Dragon-fire proof. The fire that Dany was in was the birth of the dragons, so that was dragon related too.


Dany survived the hut burning with the dothraki horse lords, pus there are several clues in S1 where Dany seems to be impervious to heat.

Jon and Viserys have not had that protection. I do wonder if Viserys had lived if the dragons would have cozied up to him despite his cruelty.

Hopefully when (assuming it happens) Jon and the dragons meet up they will recognize his Targaryen roots.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> But they weren't preventing anyone from taking books off the shelf. They appeared to just be short pieces of chains hanging down, only anchored at the top. And even if they were tight and anchored at both ends, they weren't spaced closely enough to prevent books from being slid out between the chains. A true theft prevention system would need to be horizontal, not vertical.


I thought it had to do with getting to the higher shelved books. Climbing? Moving shelves? Pulling yourself along on a wheeled ladder?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Shaunnick said:


> Hopefully when (assuming it happens) Jon and the dragons meet up they will recognize his Targaryen roots.


Or if Bran and Jon are reunited, then Dany tries to attack the North with three dragons, it would be good to see Bran and Jon each warg into a dragon, and then it is two dragons against one, in favor of the North.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I think the fireproof thing is a Danny only thing at the moment. Like not all Starks were Worgs. 
I could argue maybe since the 'lord of light' (fire and all that) brought Jon back from the dead addition to his Targaryon blood, that now he's fireproof and just doesn't know it yet. Depends on what GRRM wants.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> For all Petyr's cunning, I think he underestimated the threat of the White Walkers and overestimated the strength of the Lannisters.


Seems to me he's been working against the Lannisters (secretly and not so secretly). They hold him in such contempt that he'll never rise under their rule.

But I agree that he, and just about everybody who isn't Jon Snow, has seriously underestimated the threat from the real North. As well as, of course, the threat from the East. I had thought that they were building to a great civil war in Westeros only to be overshadowed by Dany and the White Walkers, but the great civil war has already pretty much fizzled out. I can now see Jon raising an army to fight the Lannisters, only to find there's nobody left to fight!


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I thought that required kings blood. Maybe Rhaegar's blood in Jon would work, but does Melisandre know that?


She seemed to sense something within him when she tried to seduce him at Castle Black.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Seems to me he's been working against the Lannisters (secretly and not so secretly). They hold him in such contempt that he'll never rise under their rule.


Oh, he was definitely working against them. First it was by pitting the Starks against them, then it was pitting the Tyrells, and now it is the Vale (along with the Starks again). But I think he also thought they would take the other houses with them in a war that ultimately destroyed their house. Instead, they have now basically united all the other houses against them.

Ironically, this unity might be just what allows the people of Westeros to join together soon enough to stand up to the White Walkers. Had there been a different house in control of the Iron Throne, there might have been more contention over it. So, by being the lesser common enemy before the greater common enemy, the Lannisters might have played a key role in the defeat of the White Walkers.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I think the key to peace/alliance between the north and the south (assuming Danny kicks butt) is Tyrion.
Jon and Tyrion became friendly during the trip to the wall.
Tyrion treated Sansa with respect and humanity during her Lannister imprisonment. In hindsight if she had to choose between Jeoffrey, Ramsay, Littlefinger, or Tyrion I think Tyrion wins hands down..
I think Tyrion is also well aware that Ned and Cat Stark were manipulated by not only his family but others, and I think he thought of the Stark family as stubbornly noble good people, whose stubborn nobility was their fatal weakness (love in Robb's case).

I can easily see Jon and Sansa, or Tyrion reaching out to the other to discuss things. I mean Danny has already agreed to give the Greyjoys their independence, I'm assuming the Martells of Dorne got the same agreement. Tyrion knows the north is loyal to a fault to the Stark name and after such a discussion seeing that Jon and Sansa have no real interest to fight Danny, but instead are worried about monsters north of the wall I think an agreement would be easily made.

However Littlefinger is toxic, and would probably try sabotage any deal. Luckily Varys knows about Petyr's ambitions and has *hopefully* shared them with Tyrion and Danny.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> At the very least, he is a person that can unite the two houses. The Starks are the house most concerned with the approaching White Walkers, and Daenerys is the one with the forces most capable of stopping them.
> 
> For all Petyr's cunning, I think he underestimated the threat of the White Walkers and overestimated the strength of the Lannisters. All the other houses are now against the Lannisters and/or allied with Daenerys. (Except possibly the Freys. But we'll have to see what the ramifications of Walder and his sons' deaths have for that house. And, as Jaime pointed out, they aren't much use to the Lannisters anyway.) The events he set in motion have ultimately ended with the Lannisters being in an extremely weak position, thus making it easier for Daenerys to stake her claim to the Iron Throne. And once she has established herself in King's Landing, it will be far harder for him to take the throne for himself than it would have been with Cersei, Tommen, or even Joffery in charge.
> 
> ...


I've always felt since Season 1 that the game was between Petyr and Varys.

Petyr plays using chaos, pitting great houses against each other to weaken them, and add rungs to the ladder for him to climb. Remember, to him, "the climb is all there is."

Varys is using information to gather strength. He didn't want war to break out in Westeros until the Targaryens were ready to invade with the Dothraki. Now he has facilitated an alliance between the two biggest rivals in the south, plus the iron islands and the forces of Essos to boot!


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> But they weren't preventing anyone from taking books off the shelf. They appeared to just be short pieces of chains hanging down, only anchored at the top. And even if they were tight and anchored at both ends, they weren't spaced closely enough to prevent books from being slid out between the chains. A true theft prevention system would need to be horizontal, not vertical.


The chains appeared to be attached to the books.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

robojerk said:


> I think the key to peace/alliance between the north and the south (assuming Danny kicks butt) is Tyrion.
> Jon and Tyrion became friendly during the trip to the wall.
> Tyrion treated Sansa with respect and humanity during her Lannister imprisonment. In hindsight if she had to choose between Jeoffrey, Ramsay, Littlefinger, or Tyrion I think Tyrion wins hands down..
> I think Tyrion is also well aware that Ned and Cat Stark were manipulated by not only his family but others, and I think he thought of the Stark family as stubbornly noble good people, whose stubborn nobility was their fatal weakness (love in Robb's case).
> ...


Are Tyrion and Sansa technically still married?


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> But they weren't preventing anyone from taking books off the shelf. They appeared to just be short pieces of chains hanging down, only anchored at the top. And even if they were tight and anchored at both ends, they weren't spaced closely enough to prevent books from being slid out between the chains. A true theft prevention system would need to be horizontal, not vertical.


The books are attached via chains to the bookcases. It used to be common for valuable books in libraries.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

MacThor said:


> Are Tyrion and Sansa technically still married?


Well they never consummated the marriage


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

nataylor said:


> The books are attached via chains to the bookcases. It used to be common for valuable books in libraries.


That's right. It also used to be common for the books to be placed on the shelves spine-in (the opposite of what we currently do), as this better allowed the books to be removed from the shelves and viewed without tangling the chain when turning the book. Books were also typically stacked flat (lying down) not standing on edge as is the modern custom.


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

vertigo235 said:


> Well they never consummated the marriage


True. Sansa is the widow of Ramsey Bolton which may mean she is the heir to all Bolton lands and holdings. It also means she is available.

Great season final. I need a second viewing to digest all that happened.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

BitbyBlit said:


> It will also be interesting to see how Daenerys takes this news. Will she try to make a deal with Jon to let him be King in the North, while she becomes Queen in the South? Will Jon agree to give up his claim if she promises to use her army to help fight the White Walkers? Or will she be willing to give up her claim, and use her power to support Jon's?


It seems to me that Dany has way more power than Jon. Plus she and most of her allies are geographically away from the ravages of the coming winter. Also, I don't see Jon even wanting the iron throne. Ned wouldn't have, and I don't see Jon wanting it either. I think help with the White Walkers is all Jon really wants, but it may turn out that Jon is what Dany needs to keep her dragons in line.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

So, I had always pretty much assumed Daenerys would end up on the Iron Throne and that would be the end of it.

But with the reminder that she can't have children, it got me to thinking that even if she succeeds, it only pushes the problem off one generation. There will be no heir, and we get to have this war all over again whenever she dies (however far off that may be).

Even the idea of her pairing with Jon Snow doesn't solve that problem.

And while I don't think George RR Martin has any intention of "they lived happily ever after", I also don't know that he'd leave that big a hole in the story.

So who gets the throne *after* Daenerys Stormborn, first of her name, Queen of the Andals, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Robin said:


> Maybe because her only love was Jaime she can't understand how someone could be so devoted to their spouse. She never saw his suicide coming.


I've always wondered how much Cersi really loves Jaime as I think that Jaime loves her far more than she loves him.
(And that's a problem.)



DavidTigerFan said:


> Not to mention Indira Varma. She had less than 10 minutes I think.


That's 8 more minutes than Alexander Siddig had.

I was also hoping that they didn't pay Alfie Allen by the line in this episode.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> ??? That's the point...they don't know that Jon is Lord Commander; they still have Jeor Mormont as High Commander.


Bureaucrats are constant no matter where you go.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

JYoung said:


> I've always wondered how much Cersi really loves Jaime as I think that Jaime loves her far more than she loves him.
> (And that's a problem.)


A problem for him, sure...

As for her "it feels good".


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Ereth said:


> So, I had always pretty much assumed Daenerys would end up on the Iron Throne and that would be the end of it.
> 
> But with the reminder that she can't have children, it got me to thinking that even if she succeeds, it only pushes the problem off one generation. There will be no heir, and we get to have this war all over again whenever she dies (however far off that may be).
> 
> ...


I think I've heard or read here or elsewhere that GRRM has stated that this saga will not have


Spoiler



a traditional "happy" ending.



Given that, I was intrigued by the poster earlier today who suggested that it's always been Baelish and Varys playing the "Game" and perhaps once the war between Dany and Cersei and then the war between humans and White Walkers are concluded, one of Baelish or Varys will be left as the only people in any position of power and that's how the saga will end.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Ereth said:


> So, I had always pretty much assumed Daenerys would end up on the Iron Throne and that would be the end of it.
> 
> But with the reminder that she can't have children, it got me to thinking that even if she succeeds, it only pushes the problem off one generation. There will be no heir, and we get to have this war all over again whenever she dies (however far off that may be).
> 
> ...


She is the mother of dragons. Drogon will rule. 

I could see the war resulting in the destruction of King's Landing and the Iron Throne altogether. Perhaps the end result is something going back to the seven independent kingdoms, with a loose detente. Break the wheel, indeed.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> Didn't she also say, years ago, that in her vision she saw Jon Snow walking amongst the flames at Winterfell? Or am I misremembering that?


I thought she said that she saw a great battle/victory in the snow. That's what I remember.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think I've heard or read here or elsewhere that GRRM has stated that this saga will not have * SPOILER * .


And Jon Snow was truly dead and going to stay that way.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> And Jon Snow was truly dead and going to stay that way.


I thought he just said truly dead, but nothing about him staying that way..?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

MacThor said:


> I could see the war resulting in the destruction of King's Landing and the Iron Throne altogether. Perhaps the end result is something going back to the seven independent kingdoms, with a loose detente. Break the wheel, indeed.


I'm curious how the Free Folk are going to fit into all of this. They don't believe in bowing to any noble, not even Jon. And while Jon might be okay making a deal with them similar to Daenerys' with the Ironborn (you can be independent as long as you don't raid and pillage other territories), I'm not sure how many others, including Daenerys, would honor that agreement, and instead consider them to be rebels.

Tyrion made a good point that if Daenerys makes the same deal as she did with the Ironborn with all the kingdoms, then there won't be any left for her to rule. On the other hand, I think Daenerys cares less about power for power's sake than power for justice's sake. Admittedly, it is her view of justice, and she will beat people into submission to get her way. But if the other kingdoms were willing to adhere to her vision of justice, then perhaps she would be okay with the direct ruling over King's Landing, and loosely over the Seven Kingdoms only in the sense that if they violated the terms of their treaties with her, her and the other kingdoms would march against them (as part of their treaties).

She did say that the other kingdoms were free to ask for their independence as well. Perhaps having the house in control of King's Landing not a house tied to another kingdom might help to minimize bias when dealing with inter-kingdom matters.

Or maybe all of the remaining stockpiled wildfire is ignited in King's Landing, thus killing all of the invading White Walker army in the city along with everyone else. "Burn them all!" is the battle cry. "Burn them all!"

The rest of Westeros is left similarly in ruins, and there are barely any inhabitants left.

The last scene of the series shows a King's Landing that is completely silent save for the footsteps of a man walking through the rubble of the Great Hall of the Red Keep. It is Petyr Baelish. He sits down on the Iron Throne, and smiles. Then the credits roll.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I've always wondered how much Cersi really loves Jaime as I think that Jaime loves her far more than she loves him.
> (And that's a problem.)


She uses him when she needs something. She never _consults_ with him. This will become more apparent to him now that she's queen.



BitbyBlit said:


> Tyrion made a good point that if Daenerys makes the same deal as she did with the Ironborn with all the kingdoms, then there won't be any left for her to rule. On the other hand, *I think Daenerys cares less about power for power's sake than power for justice's sake*. Admittedly, it is her view of justice, and she will beat people into submission to get her way. But if the other kingdoms were willing to adhere to her vision of justice, then perhaps she would be okay with the direct ruling over King's Landing, and loosely over the Seven Kingdoms only in the sense that if they violated the terms of their treaties with her, her and the other kingdoms would march against them (as part of their treaties).


I don't know about the ruling KL part, but I can see Dany stepping back and letting others rule their regions with the threat of crushing them if they attack others _or_ are bad to their people (slavery).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

"Go ahead and rule your cute little kingdoms. Just remember that if you piss me off, you piss my dragons off. And a well-fed dragon is a happy dragon, and cattle costs money, so you might want to help make my dragons happy."


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Seems that Dan and David are pretty serious about finishing up the series soon:

http://deadline.com/2016/06/game-of-thrones-season-6-finale-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-hbo-1201780242/



> BENIOFF: Its two more seasons were talking about. From pretty close to the beginning, we talked about doing this in 70-75 hours, and thats what well end up with. Call it 73 for now. What Dan says is really true, but its not just trying not to outstay your welcome. Were trying to tell one cohesive story with a beginning, middle and end. As Dan said, weve known the end for quite some time and were hurtling towards it. Those last images from the show that aired last night showed that. Daenerys is finally coming back to Westeros; Jon Snow is king of the North and Cersei is sitting on the Iron Throne. And we know the Night King is up there, waiting for all of them. The pieces are on the board now. Some of the pieces have been removed from the board and we are heading toward the end game. The thing that has excited us from the beginning, back to the way we pitched it to HBO is, its not supposed to be an ongoing show, where every season its trying to figure out new story lines. We wanted it to be one giant story, without padding it out to add an extra 10 hours, or because people are still watching it. We wanted to something where, if people watched it end to end, it would make sense as one continuous story. Were definitely heading into the end game now.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I hate being the one that corrects minor details...but it seems that it's a job nobody wants!
> 
> I don't think he found the pardon, I think that Tywin sent details of the pardon to them to disrupt Dany's inner circle and sow seeds of mistrust.
> 
> Just another little thing to show how brilliant Tywin really was. As Olenna said, it's not often that the truth resembles the legend.


Didn't they all agree though that the letter wasn't forged? That means that it did come from Robert.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

goblue97 said:


> Didn't they all agree though that the letter wasn't forged? That means that it did come from Robert.


Or did they agree that it really did come from Tywin? I assume Tywin sent them a copy or something. Every document like that would have at least one duplicate in some government office!


----------



## markbox (May 3, 2004)

I don't believe we have difinitive proof that Daenerys can't have children. Just because a Dothraki witch told her that her chances of having children were the same as the chance that the sun would rise in the west and set in the east (along with a number of other unlikey events) does not mean it is true. What other proof do we have that Daenerys can't have children?

Also remember that this universe has magic. If the Lord of Light wants Daenerys to have a child then so it shall be. Or perhaps Jorah will show up with a healing elixir that he used to heal himself and he gives it to Daenerys to heal herself.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Or did they agree that it really did come from Tywin? I assume Tywin sent them a copy or something. Every document like that would have at least one duplicate in some government office!


I missed the Xerox machine in corner. 

Or, maybe he had it stored on his personal server.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

markbox said:


> I don't believe we have difinitive proof that Daenerys can't have children. Just because a Dothraki witch told her that her chances of having children were the same as the chance that the sun would rise in the west and set in the east (along with a number of other unlikey events) does not mean it is true. What other proof do we have that Daenerys can't have children?


She and Daario have been going at it a while?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

robojerk said:


> Rhaegar Targaryen was married to Elia Martell of Dorne, the whole plot of the Viper and the Mountain battle/duel/trial by combat. Danny (only daughter of the mad king) hadn't been born until the end of the rebellion. Rhaegar had been married off years before (since he had no Targaryen sisters to wed at the time, Targaryen's always marry siblings to keep line pure) and had at least 1 child with his wife already. So R+L=J has some legitimacy issues in the Irone Throne claim, but who doesn't at this point.. So why not him?


We also have no idea of the (Targaryen) customs at the time. Perhaps all he had to do was call in a maester to issue divorce papers and then perform the wedding ceremony, all in one fell swoop.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Seems that Dan and David are pretty serious about finishing up the series soon:
> 
> http://deadline.com/2016/06/game-of-thrones-season-6-finale-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-hbo-1201780242/





> BENIOFF: Its two more seasons were talking about. From pretty close to the beginning, we talked about doing this in 70-75 hours, and thats what well end up with. Call it 73 for now.


Many of the episodes this season were barely over 50 minutes. So it already seems like they were spreading things out to get to 10 episodes. If the last 13-15 episodes are as long as this one, it won't be so bad. But if they aren't, then the White Walkers win.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

goblue97 said:


> I missed the Xerox machine in corner.
> 
> Or, maybe he had it stored on his personal server.


He uploaded it to the cloud.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

goblue97 said:


> I missed the Xerox machine in corner.
> 
> Or, maybe he had it stored on his personal server.


First World people...they have no clue how things work in the "real" world. 

As any good bureaucrat will tell you, the King will sign 2 identical documents like that. One given to the person in question and another kept for the official records.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Ereth said:


> So who gets the throne *after* Daenerys Stormborn, first of her name, Queen of the Andals, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm?


I wouldn't really be surprised at all if the the series ended with the murder of whoever is currently on the Iron Throne.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Shakhari said:


> I don't get why anyone thinks Sansa should feel slighted. Granted, Jon isn't a great military commander ... especially considering how his previous command ended ... but Sansa didn't save the day with her superior military prowess. In fact, she didn't save the day at all ... Littlefinger and the knights of the Vale did that. All Sansa did was write a letter.


Sorry I'm late to the thread but I wanted to link you all to this article with Sophie Turner that may shed some light on this debate.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-finale-sophie-turner-906820


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

wprager said:


> He uploaded it to the cloud.


Only Bran "Three Eyed Raven" Stark can do that!


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

One thing that I've never been able to understand is the point of all the religions. We know that the "old gods" have an effect in the realm because of Bran being the 3 eyed raven, the weirwoods, and other magical events. And we know that Rhy'llor has power because of Beric Dondarrion and Jon Snow being brought back to life, but what is the point of them? Is GRRM and the show just using them as crutches? Will Jon be the reborn Azor Ahai and have Rhyllor strike down on the undead army? Will Bran and the old gods smack them down?

So far it just seems that GRRM needed a way for Bran to see in past so he created the weirwoods and he needed a way for Jon to come back to life so he created Rhyllor. Unfortunately, I don't think the show is going to have time to flesh these out any more and they'll be relegated to the crutches they are.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

danterner said:


> That's right. It also used to be common for the books to be placed on the shelves spine-in (the opposite of what we currently do), as this better allowed the books to be removed from the shelves and viewed without tangling the chain when turning the book. Books were also typically stacked flat (lying down) not standing on edge as is the modern custom.


A lot of archival libraries I've been to still store boors flat since it's better for the book long-term.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Finally watched this last night (and surprisingly, didn't get spoiled).

Good episode overall, but to me, a lot of it was telegraphed pretty obviously. Between Tyrion's mention of both the hidden wildfire and its purpose[1] in the last episode, and the scene of Tommen not being allowed to go to the Sept by the Mountain, I figured it was pretty clear the Sept was getting torched. But hey, such a nicely done scene otherwise, I'll let them have that one.

Similarly, once I saw that the Late Walder Frey was eating alone aside from a server girl, it was pretty obvious that was Arya and he was about to become the Late Late Walder Frey.

They seem to have rushed the Dorne-Highgarden alliance part.

[1] Why didn't they tap into that supply back in the Battle of the Blackwater when Tyrion was having them go into overtime in wildfire production?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

HBO just released this and has Rhaegar connected as Jon's father. So why the whisper then?


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I thought the whisper was Jon's real name.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Robin said:


> I thought the whisper was Jon's real name.


I thought that, too. And I think his name might be Aegon II.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

nataylor said:


> I thought that, too. And I think his name might be Aegon II.


You really think he's over 200 years old?!?


----------



## Boot (Mar 15, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, I don't know if "love of his life" is right. He's still just a kid...probably "super-hot woman who's willing to sleep with him" is the closest he can come.
> 
> But your point still stands.


Except that she wasn't willing to sleep with him.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> Tyrion made a good point that if Daenerys makes the same deal as she did with the Ironborn with all the kingdoms, then there won't be any left for her to rule. On the other hand, I think Daenerys cares less about power for power's sake than power for justice's sake. Admittedly, it is her view of justice, and she will beat people into submission to get her way. But if the other kingdoms were willing to adhere to her vision of justice, then perhaps she would be okay with the direct ruling over King's Landing, and loosely over the Seven Kingdoms only in the sense that if they violated the terms of their treaties with her, her and the other kingdoms would march against them (as part of their treaties).
> 
> She did say that the other kingdoms were free to ask for their independence as well. Perhaps having the house in control of King's Landing not a house tied to another kingdom might help to minimize bias when dealing with inter-kingdom matters.
> 
> ...


Dany doesn't have to make the same deal with everyone. Dorne and Tyrell will probably be semi-independent, as will the North and the Vale. The Lannisters have to go, though, so she's going to rule King's Landing, the Storm Lands, the River Lands, and Casterly Rock. That is, Dorne and the Tyrells will have the South, the Starks will have the North, someone will have the Vale, and Dany will rule everything in between.


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You really think he's over 200 years old?!?


I see now there already was an Aegon II (and III-V). That's a shame. I thought it would be a nice bookend to have a new Aegon unite the Seven Kingdoms into a single Kingdom.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Boot said:


> Except that she wasn't willing to sleep with him.


Well, we did see Margeary and Tommen in bed together and it was certainly stated that they had sex.

I have a question though: legally (if that applies in King's Landing now), who would have been next in line for the Iron Throne?

(Yes, Cersei is currently sitting on the Throne but as Rob pointed out, who in King's Landing is going to tell her no?)

With House Baratheon being almost completely decimated (Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis, Shireen, Selsye, and Renly) and no one really knowing about Robert's bastards, would control of the Iron Throne have gone to House Lannister with Jamie as the leading candidate?

(Ah Stannis, if you had more patience, you could have been a legitimate King without all the fighting.)


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

nataylor said:


> I see now there already was an Aegon II (and III-V). That's a shame. I thought it would be a nice bookend to have a new Aegon unite the Seven Kingdoms into a single Kingdom.


So what? Maybe he's Aegon VI. I like your theory and it would explain the name Jon, which does not seem to be short for Jonathan.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I wonder if the Targarians are considered outsiders in Westeros? They originally came in as outsiders and conquered all the people living there. And now they've been gone quite a while--it seems like a country would object to foreigners coming in and taking over again. And maybe unite against them? Of course if they have dragons......


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

I don't think "the people" give a flying crap which noble family is on the iron throne.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

I think Dany's biggest challenge in conquering Westeros will be keeping the Dothraki from burning down every house, killing all the men and raping all the women.

There might not be much left to rule by the time the war is over.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Well, we did see Margeary and Tommen in bed together and it was certainly stated that they had sex.


I had the same reaction. I think he meant recently, since her imprisonment. The church dude chastised her for not doing her wifely duties of late.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

3D said:


> So what? Maybe he's Aegon VI. I like your theory and it would explain the name Jon, which does not seem to be short for Jonathan.


Yes, much like GIF, we've all been pronouncing it wrong all this time. It's Aejon! How could we not have seen it before?


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Ereth said:


> Yes, much like GIF, we've all been pronouncing it wrong all this time. It's Aejon! How could we not have seen it before?


I guess I'm a little dense but has it been mentioned many times before and just flew right past me or has it been made clear that the pronunciation is with a hard g?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

3D said:


> I guess I'm a little dense but has it been mentioned many times before and just flew right past me or has it been made clear that the pronunciation is with a hard g?


For GIF? Yes, at least according to the man who actually invented it. (Many of us choose to ignore him). I made this joke, though, because there was a recent thread debating this exact topic. I was trying to make a funny about that. I would hope we would not debate it again here. Please?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I wonder if the Targarians are considered outsiders in Westeros? They originally came in as outsiders and conquered all the people living there. And now they've been gone quite a while--it seems like a country would object to foreigners coming in and taking over again. And maybe unite against them? Of course if they have dragons......


"Quite a while" being 20-ish years. They aren't gone from living memory by a long shot.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> For GIF? Yes, at least according to the man who actually invented it. (Many of us choose to ignore him). I made this joke, though, because there was a recent thread debating this exact topic. I was trying to make a funny about that. I would hope we would not debate it again here. Please?


Isn't it the other way around? He pronounces it as a J, and everybody else as a G?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

A lot of articles/people think the last scene in the north, Sansa is upset about Jon being claimed King of the North instead of her becoming queen. The way I watched it, she was smiling until she saw Littlefinger not smiling, and littlefinger's plan was for Sansa to be crowned, marry her, then pivot to claim the iron throne in some fashion. When she stopped smiling I took it as she is now afraid, either for Jon or herself as she knows just how conniving,evil, and murderous Petyr is and how Jon's advancement doesn't mesh with the plan he laid out.

Like Petyr didn't come to fight Ramsey, just to get a thank you. He isn't being rewarded how he feels he should.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

robojerk said:


> A lot of articles/people think the last scene in the north, Sansa is upset about Jon being claimed King of the North instead of her becoming queen. The way I watched it, she was smiling until she saw Littlefinger not smiling, and littlefinger's plan was for Sansa to be crowned, marry her, then pivot to claim the iron throne in some fashion. When she stopped smiling I took it as she is now afraid, either for Jon or herself as she knows just how conniving,evil, and murderous Petyr is and how Jon's advancement doesn't mesh with the plan he laid out.
> 
> Like Petyr didn't come to fight Ramsey, just to get a thank you. He isn't being rewarded how he feels he should.


According to the interview with Sophie Turner posted upthread by photoshopgrl:



> THR: In the scene, Sansa tells Jon that only a fool would trust Littlefinger. Later, she meets with Littlefinger and he paints this picture of himself on the Iron Throne, with Sansa at his side. She rejects him in the moment, but when Jon is crowned King in the North, Sansa and Littlefinger exchange a look with one another. What is Sansa thinking about Littlefinger's pitch by the end of the episode?
> 
> Sophie Tuner: As you say, she rejects him in the beginning, but there's definitely something in her that's it's kind of a jealousy toward Jon. He's getting all of the credit for basically Sansa saving his ass. Obviously he played a huge part in the Battle of the Bastards, but Sansa really saved him. There's a bit of jealousy there. She looks at Littlefinger knowing that he would have put her as Queen in the North, and given her the credit she deserves. I don't think she's gunning for the Iron Throne anytime soon, but she realizes that Littlefinger might be a better ally than she thought, a more trustworthy ally than she thought.


I'd say that since Sophie Turner has read the script and been given direction of how to play that scene, I'm going to take her interpretation of it over anyone else's (unless Dan and David or GRRM weigh in).


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Isn't it the other way around? He pronounces it as a J, and everybody else as a G?


In the commentary for the blu-ray for Season 3, GRRM pronounces it AY-gahn. Many readers that have thought about it think it should be EGG-on, since Aegon was nicknamed "egg". Some people pronounce it more like AY-gun or EGG-un.

Here is how "Emma Saying" thinks it should be pronounced:











EDIT:

I have never heard of someone who thought it should be pronounced AY-jahn or EH-jahn.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Ereth said:


> For GIF? Yes, at least according to the man who actually invented it. (Many of us choose to ignore him). I made this joke, though, because there was a recent thread debating this exact topic. I was trying to make a funny about that. I would hope we would not debate it again here. Please?


No, I am aware of the great GIF debate (not the Tivo Community one, just the general mispronunciation). Maybe I was being original after all.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Ever since the gif vs jif stuff started in this thread I swear I accidentally opened up the Silicon Valley thread by accident.

Stop it....


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

john4200 said:


> I have never heard of someone who thought it should be pronounced AY-jahn or EH-jahn.


Plenty of nicknames aren't directly contained in their root name.

Dick/Richard
http://m.mentalfloss.com/article.php?id=24761


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

One fan did some lip-reading, and theorizes that Jon's true name is Jaehaerys.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Robin said:


> Plenty of nicknames aren't directly contained in their root name.


No argument from me. I was just trying to summarize what I know about how people pronounce it or think it should be pronounced.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

robojerk said:


> A lot of articles/people think the last scene in the north, Sansa is upset about Jon being claimed King of the North instead of her becoming queen. The way I watched it, she was smiling until she saw Littlefinger not smiling, and littlefinger's plan was for Sansa to be crowned, marry her, then pivot to claim the iron throne in some fashion. When she stopped smiling I took it as she is now afraid, either for Jon or herself as she knows just how conniving,evil, and murderous Petyr is and how Jon's advancement doesn't mesh with the plan he laid out.


That's how I interpreted it as well. Sophie's comments seem to indicate that it was, in fact, jealousy over Jon. But when watching that scene, I saw it as fear over his safety.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> In the commentary for the blu-ray for Season 3, GRRM pronounces it AY-gahn. Many readers that have thought about it think it should be EGG-on, since Aegon was nicknamed "egg". Some people pronounce it more like AY-gun or EGG-un.


I was responding to Ereth talking about GIFs.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)




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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Robin said:


> I had the same reaction. I think he meant recently, since her imprisonment. The church dude chastised her for not doing her wifely duties of late.


"Well High Sparrow, I would of course love to provide my husband with an heir. But you've kept me locked up in the Great Sept."


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Isn't it the other way around? He pronounces it as a J, and everybody else as a G?


Yes. But point is he pronounces it wrong. Just because he invented something he called the Graphical Interchange Format doesn't give him the right over the English language pronunciation of the word "graphical".


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Does anyone know why the "little birds" killed Pycelle? He gave them candy and there was never anything else implied, was there?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

wprager said:


> Does anyone know why the "little birds" killed Pycelle? He gave them candy and there was never anything else implied, was there?


Proximate cause is that Qyburn told them to (off-screen).

As for why Qyburn told them, probably he and Cersei figured that Pycelle might object to Cersei being Queen.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

wprager said:


> Does anyone know why the "little birds" killed Pycelle? He gave them candy and there was never anything else implied, was there?


Varys is the one who gave them candy as they were his network of spies. Qyburn took that role over. Pycelle never had anything to do with the little birds.

And they killed him because Qyburn told them to.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Proximate cause is that Qyburn told them to (off-screen).
> 
> As for why Qyburn told them, probably he and Cersei figured that Pycelle might object to Cersei being Queen.


As to why they didn't just let Pycelle go to the trial and die in the wildfire blast instead?

I can think of two reasons:
1) A reward/revenge for Qyburn for having to listen to Pycelle insult him all this time
2) If Pycelle was at the Sept he may have figured out what was going on like Margaery did and convinced the High Sparrow to evacuate


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Varys is the one who gave them candy as they were his network of spies. Qyburn took that role over. Pycelle never had anything to do with the little birds.
> 
> And they killed him because Qyburn told them to.


Pycelle's treatment of the disadvantaged is what did him in. Remember his vanity and the unwillingness to pay the prostitute earlier? The "little birds" are children of those that are taken advantage of, such as the prostitute. Pycelle has probably stiffed them as well, in more ways than one, so they were more than willing to take him down. Qyburn only needed to give a little nudge.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

We also have no reason to think that Pycelle was going to go to the trial. No reason to think he wouldn't go either I suppose. But everyone else that occupied the small counsel against Cersei was at the trial already when Pycelle was lured away (unless I am mistaken).


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

wprager said:


> Yes. But point is he pronounces it wrong. Just because he invented something he called the Graphical Interchange Format doesn't give him the right over the English language pronunciation of the word "graphical".


What does the pronunciation of "graphical" have to do with the pronunciation of "gif"? If there was a Gnome International Fund, would its acronym be pronounced "nif"?

More importantly, how do they pronounce "gif" in the Common Tongue, and can we use that to determine whether or not it is actually English?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jakerock said:


> We also have no reason to think that Pycelle was going to go to the trial. No reason to think he wouldn't go either I suppose. But everyone else that occupied the small counsel against Cersei was at the trial already when Pycelle was lured away (unless I am mistaken).


Oh, I think Pycelle would have reveled in watching Cersei on trial. I think he would've been there.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> More importantly, how do they pronounce "gif" in the Common Tongue, and can we use that to determine whether or not it is actually English?


sin-KEV-itch.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

BitbyBlit said:


> What does the pronunciation of "graphical" have to do with the pronunciation of "gif"? If there was a Gnome International Fund, would its acronym be pronounced "nif"?
> 
> More importantly, how do they pronounce "gif" in the Common Tongue, and can we use that to determine whether or not it is actually English?


I figure if the guy who invented it went out of his way to specify the pronunciation, then that's how I'll pronounce it. I'm not sure how Linus Torvalds pronounce Linus, but I am sure how to pronounce Linux.

The right way to spell potato:

If GH can stand for P as in Hiccough 
If OUGH stands for O as in Dough 
If PHTH stands for T as in Phthisis 
If EIGH stands for A as in Neighbour 
If TTE stands for T as in Gazette 
If EAU stands for O as in Plateau
Then the right way to spell POTATO should be: GHOUGHPHTHEIGHTTEEA


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Isn't it the other way around? He pronounces it as a J, and everybody else as a G?


That's what I was trying to say. Did I screw it up somehow?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I was responding to Ereth talking about GIFs.


And Ereth was being funny about Ay-Jon. Or at least trying to be. Ereth doesn't seriously believe it's pronounced that way. Nobody should take Ereth seriously on this point. Sometimes his jokes just land flat. It happens.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Oh, the reason I came here...

I was watching "Gay of Thrones" on "Funny or Die", and while I didn't care for the bit, they made one joke that I thought landed rather well, especially for here.

They referred to Bran using the Weirwood Tree to get visions as "using his treevo". I LOVED that joke.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Then the right way to spell POTATO should be: GHOUGHPHTHEIGHTTEEA


You say ghoughphtheightteeau; I say ghoughphthistteeau.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

I missed this look from Littlefinger to Sansa, once Jon was declared King of the North:


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

One of the plots in the books which has been cut from the show is that Rhaegar's son with Elia Martell was saved. His name is Aegon, and since he would be Jon's half-brother, it's unlikely that Jon's Targaryen birth name would be Aegon as well.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> One of the plots in the books which has been cut from the show is that Rhaegar's son with Elia Martell was saved. His name is Aegon, and since he would be Jon's half-brother, it's unlikely that Jon's Targaryen birth name would be Aegon as well.


Book spoilers below (for a plot that has been cut from the show so non-book readers should be safe, but enter at your own risk.)


Spoiler



It has yet to be revealed if he's the real Aegon. In fact, Varys and Tyrion are travelling with him.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> HBO just released this and has Rhaegar connected as Jon's father. So why the whisper then?


Rickaard Start has two dads?


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

uncdrew said:


> Rickaard Start has two dads?


No. He has 3 male parent lines.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> No. He has 3 male parent lines.


4 parent lines...and 1 'a'


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Martin Tupper said:


> 4 parent lines...and 1 'a'


I'm confused. What does it mean? And who is he anyway? Is he in the show?


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

He was Ned's father. Also the father of Lyanna, Benjen, and Ned's older brother Brandon, who was supposed to marry Catlyn and be Lord of Winterfell, but was killed by Aerys


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> I'm confused. What does it mean? And who is he anyway? Is he in the show?


He's the father of Ned, Lyanna, Brandon and Benjen.

There are little tiny arrows indicating in which direction the lines go.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I'm confused. What does it mean? And who is he anyway? Is he in the show?


He's Ned's father (and therefore Benjen's, Lyanna's and Brandon's).

Not in the show but covered in dialogue concerning the back story (I think)

ah, Ereth beat me to it


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

He must have been in the show in a flashback, since he has a photo.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

BitbyBlit said:


> What does the pronunciation of "graphical" have to do with the pronunciation of "gif"? If there was a Gnome International Fund, would its acronym be pronounced "nif"?
> 
> More importantly, how do they pronounce "gif" in the Common Tongue, and can we use that to determine whether or not it is actually English?


First of all, I don't pronounce "gnome" the same as "Nome" (Alaska). Second, that is a case of a silent letter, not the same as the difference between hard and soft (if anything, you could have asked if I would pronounce it as "if").


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> He was Ned's father. Also the father of Lyanna, Benjen, and Ned's older brother Brandon, who was supposed to marry Catlyn and be Lord of Winterfell, but was killed by Aerys


D'oh. Thanks everyone.

I interpreted the arrows backwards. I thought he was one of Ned's kids. I can keep all the Stark-rats straight.

So Rickard and Brandon never really were on the show, right?


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

I like how they have line just for Abducted.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> D'oh. Thanks everyone.
> 
> I interpreted the arrows backwards. I thought he was one of Ned's kids. I can keep all the Stark-rats straight.
> 
> *So Rickard and Brandon never really were on the show, right*?


Lyanna was "abducted" by Rhaegar Targaryen. Rickard and Brandon went to King Aerys (Rhaegar's father) to demand Lyanna's return. Instead, Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon in a rather gruesome manner, and that chain of events is what started "Robert's Rebellion" which ended with Robert Baratheon as king and the Targaryen's killed and/or banished from Westeros.

The series starts a few years after all of these things are finished, with Robert as king and married to Cersei, Daenerys and Viserys in Essos trying to raise an army, and the Starks back in Winterfell minding their own business.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

I seem to recall a scene where Aerys had Rickard and Brandon burned alive. Or one burned and the other made to watch then killed. It was a very short flashback scene, maybe by Jamie.

Or I am confusing a memory from the book. CRS.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mr. Soze said:


> I seem to recall a scene where Aerys had Rickard and Brandon burned alive. Or one burned and the other made to watch then killed. It was a very short flashback scene, maybe by Jamie.


Wasn't that one of Bran's visions?


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Mr. Soze said:


> I seem to recall a scene where Aerys had Rickard and Brandon burned alive. Or one burned and the other made to watch then killed. It was a very short flashback scene, maybe by Jamie.


Execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark



> After Lyanna's abduction, her older brother Brandon was enraged and rode to King's Landing demanding the release of his sister and the death of Rhaegar. Aerys arrested him for treason and called for his father to come to the capital to ransom him. When Lord Rickard complied, Aerys, now utterly mad, arrested him for treason as well.
> 
> Lord Rickard demanded a trial by combat. Aerys declared "fire" the champion of the House Targaryen and had Lord Rickard suspended from the rafters of the throne room while pyromancers lit a blaze beneath him. As he burned, Brandon was brought into the throne room, a leather cord attached to a strangulation device was wrapped around his neck. Aerys told Brandon his father was a dead man but there was a chance to save him. A longsword was placed on the floor just out of Brandon's reach. And the more he struggled to reach it, the more the cord tightened around his throat. Brandon Stark strangled himself trying to free his father, who was roasted alive in his own armor. The entire court stood and watched this atrocity take place, Ser Jaime Lannister and the Kingsguard among them.





> "Five hundred men just stood there and watched. All the great knights of the Seven Kingdoms. You think anyone said a word, lifted a finger? No, Lord Stark. Five hundred men and this room was silent as a crypt. Except for the screams, of course, and the Mad King laughing. And later... when I watched the Mad King die, I remembered him laughing as your father burned... it felt like justice."
> ―_Jaime Lannister to Eddard Stark_





> The execution was set to be featured in a flashback scene. Footage of the scene appeared in the "Fear and Blood" first season trailer but has not appeared in any aired episode of the series. The scene was cut for time restrictions.
> In the scene, Aerys was played by Liam Burke and Brandon was played by an unidentified actor. It is unknown if an actor was cast to play Rickard.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Wasn't that one of Bran's visions?


The only time we've seen Aerys was in Bran's vision, but there were just two short scenes:

1. Aerys saying "Burn them all", and 
2. Jaime kingslaying him


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

ct1 said:


> Execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark


That's some really good writing! Gave me chills. Especially the quote from Jamie to Ned.

Maybe I will go back and read the books, after all.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> The only time we've seen Aerys was in Bran's vision, but there were just two short scenes:
> 
> 1. Aerys saying "Burn them all", and
> 2. Jaime kingslaying him


And I've heard a lot of speculation that #2 is actually a future vision of Jaime slaying someone else on the Iron Throne, perhaps Cersei.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> And I've heard a lot of speculation that #2 is actually a future vision of Jaime slaying someone else on the Iron Throne, perhaps Cersei.


That would be hard core.

I approve.

I just rewatched the one with the bear. I really like Jaime (when he's not pushing children out of windows).


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## Boot (Mar 15, 2000)

Robin said:


> I had the same reaction. I think he meant recently, since her imprisonment. The church dude chastised her for not doing her wifely duties of late.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking of.


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

danterner said:


> That's right. It also used to be common for the books to be placed on the shelves spine-in (the opposite of what we currently do), as this better allowed the books to be removed from the shelves and viewed without tangling the chain when turning the book. Books were also typically stacked flat (lying down) not standing on edge as is the modern custom.


That's interesting. When / where was that the case? Was that only for rare book collections?


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Robin said:


> That would be hard core.
> 
> I approve.
> 
> I just rewatched the one with the bear. I really like Jaime (when he's not pushing children out of windows).


My daughter has been watching, starting at the beginning. She really hates Jaime. I've been telling her he gets better. Last night was the bear. I asked if he redeemed himself yet. Not yet.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Tough crowd.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

> After Lyanna's abduction, her older brother Brandon was enraged and rode to King's Landing demanding the release of his sister and the death of Rhaegar. Aerys arrested him for treason...


And this is why the Stark family keeps getting slain. Seriously, what did Brandon think was gonna happen? He goes to the king, and says "kill your son for his crimes". Daddy King is just gonna "sure thing Bran"?

Honor and nobility is a great thing. But unless you temper it with reality, and awareness of the political situation... :down:


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

javabird said:


> That's interesting. When / where was that the case? Was that only for rare book collections?


Chains went out of fashion as books became easier to and consequently less costly to produce (and cheaper to replace if lost or stolen). And, as books became more affordable and libraries grew, space to store then became more of an issue and thus the switch from laying them flat to stacking them side by side. All of this was around the Middle Ages/Rennaissance.

See here: https://books.google.com/books?id=3...nepage&q=library book flat down chain&f=false



> This is a brief but valuable and interesting account of the interior arrangements of ancient libraries tracing the development of book storage from the reading desk to which books were chained to the comparatively modern wall case. The evolution of the modern book case may be traced in the following extracts from Mr Clark's useful work When books were first placed in a separate room fastened with iron chains for the use of the fellows of a college or the monks of a convent the piece of furniture used was I take it an elongated lectern or desk of a convenient height for a seated reader to use The books lay on their sides on the desk and were attached by chains to a horizontal bar above it As libraries increased in size and books were multiplied tiers of shelves had to be provided in addition to desks and the system of laying books flat on their sides had to be abandoned in favour of standing them upright on shelves above or below reading desks As Mr Clark states The system of chaining as adopted in this country would allow of the books being readily taken down from the shelves and laid on the desk for reading One end of the chain was attached to the middle of the upper edge of the right hand board the other to a ring which played 0 1 a bar set in front of the shelf on which the book stood The fore edge of the books not the back was turned forwards A swivel usually in the middle of the chain prevented tangling The chains varied in length according to the distance of the shelf from the desk The bar was kept in place by a rather elaborate system of iron work attached to the end of the bookcase and secured by a lock which often required two keys that is the presence of two officials to open it A typical example of this arrangement still exists in Hereford Cathedral The great increase of books consequent upon the invention of printing led to greater economy of storage being forced upon library owners while the necessity for chaining books was obviated because of their value being reduced through the multiplication of copies Hence arose the wall case with the ledge or desk running all round the room at about three feet from the floor The Mazarin Library at Paris which many librarians will remember is an excellent example of this arrangement and there are many old libraries in England similarly treated So far as I have been able to discover the first library arranged in the way with which we are familiar namely with the bookcases set against the walls instead of at right angles to them is that of the Escurial These cases were made by Herrera the architect of the building in 1584 There is no indication of chaining but in conformity with ancient usage the fore edge of the books instead of their backs is turned outwards and the desk is represented by a shelf carried all round the room at a convenient height


I'm an internet expert on this subject (meaning that I think I heard it mentioned in a podcast once but don't remember where or when, and I just spent about 2 minutes googling to make sure I'm not completely talking out of my ass), so take my explanation with a big fat grain of salt. Rob can give you more accurate info, I'm sure.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

SoBelle0 said:


> That's some really good writing! Gave me chills. Especially the quote from Ned.
> 
> Maybe I will go back and read the books, after all.


What quote from Ned?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I watched the scene of "the King in the North" again...the way I see the scene is that Sansa is enjoying how things turned out tremendously...then she looks over to Littlefinger and quickly realizes that this is not what LF wanted. Her smile vanishes as so she thinks "oh, crap. LF is already back to being an enemy. We're in grave danger".

I don't see her being jealous or unhappy in the least about Jon being hailed.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I watched the scene of "the King in the North" again...the way I see the scene is that Sansa is enjoying how things turned out tremendously...then she looks over to Littlefinger and quickly realizes that this is not what LF wanted. Her smile vanishes as so she thinks "oh, crap. LF is already back to being an enemy. We're in grave danger".
> 
> I don't see her being jealous or unhappy in the least about Jon being hailed.


Even after reading the Sophie Turner interview where she explains how she thinks that scene should be interpreted?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Even after reading the Sophie Turner interview where she explains how she thinks that scene should be interpreted?


For me, yes..

It makes no sense watching it thinking of how she interprets it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Even after reading the Sophie Turner interview where she explains how she thinks that scene should be interpreted?


I've seen many interviews where the actor had no clue what was going on and was just guessing. Usually, the actor errs on the side of glorifying the person they are playing.

You're assuming the writers told her what is going on so she could act it. I don't think that's necessarily true. It's just as likely that he told her "smile... Now look to your right...now stop smiling and look concerned"...they took 20 takes with different expressions and then the director picked the one that best expressed what he and the writers wanted.

In this case, I say what they wanted is to show my "oh crap..." theory


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I don't think Littlefinger has anything to worry from Jon; he has no aspirations for the Iron Throne and anyone, who knows anything about any of the Starks (as Littlefinger clearly should) would knows that. Jon wants the protect the North -- that's it. Littlefinger helped him accomplish that (and saved his life in the process). It would not take much convincing to get Jon to support putting Littlefinger on the Iron Throne.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DevdogAZ said:


> Even after reading the Sophie Turner interview where she explains how she thinks that scene should be interpreted?


Just recently we have had it thrown in our collective face that actors on GOT do no always tell the complete truth.



wprager said:


> I don't think Littlefinger has anything to worry from Jon; he has no aspirations for the Iron Throne and anyone, who knows anything about any of the Starks (as Littlefinger clearly should) would knows that. Jon wants the protect the North -- that's it. Littlefinger helped him accomplish that (and saved his life in the process). It would not take much convincing to get Jon to support putting Littlefinger on the Iron Throne.


On the other hand, Littlefinger needs a base of power to take and hold the Iron Throne; King of the North would provide such a base. On past experience, given two possible reasonable interpretations, for GOT the one containing more conflict and pain is the more likely. IMO Littlefinger is going to be a problem for Jon quite soon.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

wprager said:


> What quote from Ned?


Oops. Quote from Jamie *to* Ned. I'll fix it.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

wprager said:


> First of all, I don't pronounce "gnome" the same as "Nome" (Alaska). Second, that is a case of a silent letter, not the same as the difference between hard and soft (if anything, you could have asked if I would pronounce it as "if").


Would you pronounce the acronym for the Center for Advanced Technology "cat" or "sat"?



wprager said:


> I don't think Littlefinger has anything to worry from Jon; he has no aspirations for the Iron Throne and anyone, who knows anything about any of the Starks (as Littlefinger clearly should) would knows that. Jon wants the protect the North -- that's it. Littlefinger helped him accomplish that (and saved his life in the process). It would not take much convincing to get Jon to support putting Littlefinger on the Iron Throne.


While Jon might not be willing to commit forces to stop Petyr from taking the Iron Throne (especially from Cersei), I doubt he would commit forces to helping him take it. Sansa, on the other hand, might be convinced. And that's where the danger to Jon arises. It's better for Petyr if Sansa controls the North, and even better yet if he can via marriage to her.

But Sansa would never forgive Petyr if he physically harmed Jon (or even if she suspected it was him when it was, in fact, someone else). And Petyr knows this. So if he knows about Jon's true parentage, he might instead try leading people to the realization that Ned Stark's blood does not, in fact, "run through his veins" in the hope that finding out that Jon is a Targaryen when another Targaryen is coming to conquer the Seven Kingdoms might cause him to lose support.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I've seen many interviews where the actor had no clue what was going on and was just guessing. Usually, the actor errs on the side of glorifying the person they are playing.
> 
> You're assuming the writers told her what is going on so she could act it. I don't think that's necessarily true. It's just as likely that he told her "smile... Now look to your right...now stop smiling and look concerned"...they took 20 takes with different expressions and then the director picked the one that best expressed what he and the writers wanted.
> 
> In this case, I say what they wanted is to show my "oh crap..." theory


I think that shows a pretty dim view of the whole writing/acting/filmmaking process. I think it would be ludicrous to assume that the writers didn't have a sense of how they wanted Sansa to react in that scene, and just as unbelievable that they wouldn't communicate that information to the actor and director.

GoT is planned way better than that. No way are they telling Sophie, "OK, give us a happy look, now give us a scared look, now give us a thoughtful look, now give us a confused look, now give us a wary look, now give us an 'oh crap' look..." and then deciding the tone of the scene in the editing room.



ej42137 said:


> Just recently we have had it thrown in our collective face that actors on GOT do no always tell the complete truth.


I think that's obviously a very different situation. Why would Sophie Turner need to lie about that?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I read the interview, I don't see it in the scene.. They might have given her a few directions to go, but the end result they went with something that doesn't resemble what she's saying. She might be clinging to an idea based on a take where they asked her to emote something.

I wouldn't be against Sansa becoming a power hungry narcissist. It would be a return to roots of being a naive little girl thinking hitching her coattails to Petyr would actually be good for her in some romantic fantasy.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think that shows a pretty dim view of the whole writing/acting/filmmaking process. I think it would be ludicrous to assume that the writers didn't have a sense of how they wanted Sansa to react in that scene, and just as unbelievable that they wouldn't communicate that information to the actor and director.
> 
> GoT is planned way better than that....


Not really. For example, the bridge scene (and scene leading up to it) with Arya and the waif.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think that's obviously a very different situation. Why would Sophie Turner need to lie about that?


Sorry, if I were to tell you it would be a spoiler for next season.


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

danterner said:


> Chains went out of fashion as books became easier to and consequently less costly to produce (and cheaper to replace if lost or stolen). And, as books became more affordable and libraries grew, space to store then became more of an issue and thus the switch from laying them flat to stacking them side by side. All of this was around the Middle Ages/Rennaissance.
> 
> See here: https://books.google.com/books?id=3...nepage&q=library book flat down chain&f=false
> 
> I'm an internet expert on this subject (meaning that I think I heard it mentioned in a podcast once but don't remember where or when, and I just spent about 2 minutes googling to make sure I'm not completely talking out of my ass), so take my explanation with a big fat grain of salt. Rob can give you more accurate info, I'm sure.


Thanks for the link. That is so cool. I just love libraries.:up:


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)




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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Here's the rest if anyone missed them http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/...-thrones-in-gifs-season-6-episode-10-updated/


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

zordude said:


> Here's the rest if anyone missed them http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/...-thrones-in-gifs-season-6-episode-10-updated/


Still cracking up over the last GIF in that set.


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

zordude said:


> Here's the rest if anyone missed them http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/...-thrones-in-gifs-season-6-episode-10-updated/


Nice. I haven't seen the entire set before.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> I took it more as he was not happy because it puts a block in the way of his dream and she knows it and knows he will scheme against John now.


That's how I took the look. Sansa was pleased that the lords of the North were all uniting behind Jon, and then she looked over at Littlefinger and saw that he was displeased with this turn of events and was probably already working on a plan, and she realized that he was going to be a problem going forward.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Even after reading the Sophie Turner interview where she explains how she thinks that scene should be interpreted?


Yep. Even after. The way she explained it made no sense to the way it was depicted. I think the director (maybe through editing) got what he wanted from her, no matter how she may have have intended to play it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Yep. Even after. The way she explained it made no sense to the way it was depicted. I think the director (maybe through editing) got what he wanted from her, no matter how she may have have intended to play it.


Uh oh...DreadPirateRob is on my side? I need to re-evaluate my position! 

Seriously, though, we can argue about the meaning of a smile and a look all day; but this one - to me - seemed very clear; especially given what we know about the characters.

Sansa is not power hungry (if she were, she would've melted at LF's offer by the tree). She told Jon many times that he should take over. She repeated the mantra of "trust LF only if your goals intersect; but never trust him even then". We've been shown nothing to indicate that what she said in the interview is possible.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Uh oh...DreadPirateRob is on my side? I need to re-evaluate my position!


Don't worry. It won't happen again. 



Anubys said:


> Seriously, though, we can argue about the meaning of a smile and a look all day; but this one - to me - seemed very clear; especially given what we know about the characters.
> 
> Sansa is not power hungry (if she were, she would've melted at LF's offer by the tree). She told Jon many times that he should take over. She repeated the mantra of "trust LF only if your goals intersect; but never trust him even then". We've been shown nothing to indicate that what she said in the interview is possible.


Agreed. And the sequencing of the whole scene doesn't lend itself to the actress' interpretation. Basically, the scene goes like this:

Group shot: Everyone on their feet shouting "The King of the North!!" over and over.

Cut to Sansa: subtly starting to smile with a pleased/relieved look starting to dawn on her face as she takes it all in. Then she sweeps her eyes over the crowd, coming to rest on LF, and as she does, the smile that had just started stops immediately.

Cut to LF: stone-faced, leaning back against the wall. He's been staring at her the whole time. (In fact, if you watch the scene, a few shots before, they show him staring up at her). They lock eyes.

Cut back to Sansa: smile completely gone now, replaced with a look of growing apprehension, and even a little fear, as she realizes LF is going to be a problem.​
Even re-watching it and specifically looking for evidence of Sophie Turner's claims, I still don't see it. It's at the end of this clip:


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

I can't stand Sansa. So much so that it makes me not like the actress. Hearing this from her makes it easier to not like her.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

She has done such a great job of making Sansa appear stupid--especially in the earlier seasons--that I'm inclined to think the actress herself is stupid. And may have trouble understanding her scenes.... Or maybe she's just an awesome actress.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> She has done such a great job of making Sansa appear stupid--especially in the earlier seasons--that I'm inclined to think the actress herself is stupid. And may have trouble understanding her scenes.... Or maybe she's just an awesome actress.


It takes a genius to convince people you're that stupid!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It takes a genius to convince people you're that stupid!


But you never go full retard.


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

I started re-watching from the beginning. I forgot how annoying Sansa was. She was a complete brat only concerned with becoming the queen and having Joffrey's babies. Her character has done a complete 180.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> She has done such a great job of making Sansa appear stupid--especially in the earlier seasons--that I'm inclined to think the actress herself is stupid.


Would you say the same for Luke on Modern Family?


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> Would you say the same for Luke on Modern Family?


Not at all. Luke, like Haley, has shown signs of being very clever.

Plus I'm pretty sure the actor that plays Luke is legit smart. Like, really smart.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Yes. He is. But he's done such a good job of making Luke appear stupid that I was wondering if stellie was inclined to think that he was stupid.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It takes a genius to convince people you're that stupid!


Plenty of stupid people have convinced me they're stupid. 

I'm not a fan of the Sansa character either. I hope she doesn't factor in too much going forward.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

JETarpon said:


> Would you say the same for Luke on Modern Family?


Nope--I give the writers full credit for Luke's stupidity.


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