# FIOS TV pixellation fix - attenuate to SNR 31



## AbMagFab

Since I was the first person to post this, and we've since seen this fix nearly everyone who has tried it, I'd like to recommend we sticky this?

*Problem:* Pixellation with FIOS TV, usually on a fixed set of channels at a time (often one or two frequencies), but the channel "block" can also sometimes move after a while.

*Why:* Since FIOS TV goes from fiber to coax right at your house, there is virtually no signal loss from the source. This means you can have a signal as hot as 10-15db. While this is "within specifications", it appears that it's too hot for the Tivo (more likely, there are other factors that trigger this issue as well, but it's all related to being such a strong, hot signal).

*Symptoms:* Other than the obvious pixellation, the most notable objective symptoms are in the Diagnostics screen. Most notably, the "RS Uncorrected" count will skyrocket when on a bad channel. Sometimes it will start at 0 and stay there for a few minutes, but once it gets hit, it just shoots through the roof (like 100's of thousands). RS Corrected will also count up, but that's not really an issue by itself. If you change channels (off the frequency) and then change back, it might stick at 0 for a few minutes, then it will skyrocket again. Sometimes, it's time of day related, where it will be fine at noon, but at 4pm it's skyrocketing again. Often you won't see any problem on the cable box, cable DVR, or TV w/cable card, even at the same time on the same channel.

*Potential fix:* It seems that the Tivo tuners are more sensitive than the cable box tuners and even TV tuners with cable cards. While SNR by itself, technically, isn't a fix, it's the best indicator for a fix. On the diagnostics screen, you want to look at the SNR number (not the cable card ones, the tuner ones). Usually this will be in the high 30's. *For FIOS TV and Tivo HD/S3, the "magic SNR number" appears to be 31.* So you want to attenuate your signal down so that the SNR is 31. Even at 32/33, the pixellation will continue. While you will see your signal strength drop, as long as it stays above ~45, you should be fine.

*Where to buy:* You can buy in-line attentuators from a number of places, just do a google search. They are about $2/each, or less in bulk (10 or more). I suggest you get a mixed bag, like a few each of 10db, 6db, and 3db to give you some flexibility in how much you attenuate the signal at each Tivo.

*Installation:* Just plug in line, in the coax (they screw in to the coax end). You can do this right before the Tivo (best for testing this fix), or you can do it at the source, and then tweak a little bit at each Tivo (install one more if needed, since cable lengths can cause variable attenuation).

*Non-FIOS problems:* While this might work for people without FIOS, it's less likely since this is due to too strong a signal. Most pixellation (IMO) other than this are due to any number of factors, including too weak a signal, dirty hubs between you and the CO, and a bad source signal.

That's it. This has fixed a dozen or so people since I've posted it and been tracking it, so I think we can officially say this is a fix for at least a good number of people who have tried it.


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## bkdtv

_Repost..._

Steps to Fix


 Order a pack of attenuators. These screw on to the end of the coax.

http://www.smarthome.com/7800.html

Verizon issues these same attenuators to installers, but most do not know to use them for TiVos.

 Find a channel with pixelization.

 Once you've found a channel with pixelization, open Settings -> System Information -> Diagnostics. With this screen, you can monitor your SNR and number of RS Corrected and RS Uncorrected errors.

*Your goal is to eliminate the RS Uncorrected errors and the fluctuation in the SNR. A few occasional RS Corrected errors are fine; it is the RS Uncorrected Errors that indicate pixelization.*

 Disconnect the coax cable from the TiVo.

Note the process of disconnecting and reconnecting the coax will result in a lot of RS Uncorrected and RS Corrected errors, but don't worry about that. Only worry about errors that increment after the cable is firmly connected.

 Most seem to require -10dB to -16dB of new attenuation. A few require as much as -20dB. I would start with -20dB and work your way down.

Screw one -20dB attenuator onto the end of the coax cable. Then reconnect the coax back to the TiVo.

 Is the problem fixed? Wait 60 seconds. Have the RS Uncorrected errors stopped incrementing on the Diagnostics screen?

 If not, or you aren't getting a picture, disconnect the coax again and repeat using one -10dB attenuator and one -6dB attenuator.

Is the problem fixed? Wait 60 seconds. Have the RS Uncorrected errors stopped incrementing on the Diagnostics screen?

 If not, disconnect the coax again and repeat using one -10dB attenuator and one -2dB attenuator.

Is the problem fixed? Wait 60 seconds. Have the RS Uncorrected errors stopped incrementing on the Diagnostics screen?

 If not, disconnect the coax again and repeat using a single -10dB attenuator.

Is the problem fixed? Wait 60 seconds. Have the RS Uncorrected errors stopped incrementing on the Diagnostics screen?

 If not, disconnect the coax again and repeat using a single -6dB attenuator.

 By now, the problem should be fixed.

You may want to check a random channel in each QAM block to confirm the problem is eliminated on all channels. I would suggest you test the channels below:


 one local SD channel (ex: NBC)
 one local HD channel (ex: CBS-HD)
 one national SD channel (ex: USA)
 one national HD channel in the lower QAM block (ex: FOOD-HD or HGTV)
 one national HD channel in the QAM block (ex: MHD or SHO-HD).
If you ever see stutter on the Tivo that is not accompanied by RS Uncorrected errors on the Diagnostics screen, that can be fixed with a Settings -> Reboot. I've had the studder issue occur twice since July and a reboot fixed it each time. This issue should be eliminated completely with the next Tivo software update.


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## JonHB

Add me to the list of people that have fixed this problem by using an attenuator.

I came home tonight and turned on the TV and the channel currently on (KTLADT/805) was severely pixelated. Ahh, perfect opportunity to work on this. Good thing I ordered those attenuators a couple of weeks ago!

I put on a -10 dB and it brought my signal to -31dB. RS uncorrected stopped dead in its tracks! Whoo hoo!!

Follow the instructions given in the first 2 posts of this thread and you will fix your problem completely.

Thank you AbMagFab & bkdtv for documenting this so well.


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## litkaj

You've got to be careful with this as it's very possible when working top-down that you've fixed a few channels and broken others. Make sure that you check one channel from each frequency.


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## rlawson4

Where do you buy and ATTENUATOR? Do you have a model # so I can see if Amazon has one.


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## bkdtv

rlawson4 said:


> Where do you buy and ATTENUATOR? Do you have a model # so I can see if Amazon has one.


Instructions and order details are in the second post.

http://www.smarthome.com/7800.html


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## rlawson4

Thank. Much appreciated.


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## joysbox

grrr, want to try this, but I only have problems in PLAYBACK mode, I haven't seen any pixilation in live tv. I only really get to see tv about 2 hours a day at best. Any suggestions?
j


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## richsadams

Nice work *AbMagFab *and *bkdtv*. :up: FIOS is coming to our neighborhood soon (buh-bye Comcast). Hopefully things will be fine, but your info will be a good addition to my toolbox in case something comes up.


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## yunlin12

Not sure if it applies for FiOS, but is there a signal strength indicator anywhere in your system? I'm on Comcast with hidh speed internet, and if I go to http://192.168.100.1/, I can see a web page served by the cable modem reporting these statistics. Mine says about 34 SNR, and an inbound signal strength of 12dBmV. My electrical engineer gut feeling is that both the signal strength and the SNR need to be tuned correctly to make the receiver work right. I think of the signal strength as a DC signal, and SNR as the AC signal. But without knowing the industry definition for these measurements, it's hard to say what's best.

Here's a link to AVS post about using cable modem to see signal strength info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12405367#post12405367


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## bkdtv

The TiVo or Motorola DVR is the only signal strength indicator.

Verizon FiOS does not use modems. Fiber connects to the box on the side of your house (or in your basement), and from there you have ethernet output.


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## evlg

litkaj said:


> You've got to be careful with this as it's very possible when working top-down that you've fixed a few channels and broken others. Make sure that you check one channel from each frequency.


How do I know which channels are on a frequency? How many frequencies do I have? Do I just have to try every single channel on the TiVo?


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## bkdtv

evlg said:


> How do I know which channels are on a frequency? How many frequencies do I have? Do I just have to try every single channel on the TiVo?


The channels are grouped together as follows:

National SD channels
Local SD channels
Local HD channels
National HD channels - low (ex: Food HD, HGTV)
National HD channels - high (ex: MHD, SHO-HD)

You can check a few channels from each group.


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## AbMagFab

bkdtv said:


> The channels are grouped together as follows:
> 
> National SD channels
> Local SD channels
> Local HD channels
> National HD channels - low (ex: Food HD, HGTV)
> National HD channels - high (ex: MHD, SHO-HD)
> 
> You can check a few channels from each group.


Not really. The channels are grouped about 10 per frequency (SD) and 2 per frequency (HD).

You can see the frequency of the channel on each card on the diagnostics screen.


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## AbMagFab

litkaj said:


> You've got to be careful with this as it's very possible when working top-down that you've fixed a few channels and broken others. Make sure that you check one channel from each frequency.


No you don't. I wish you "theory" folks would stay in your own threads.

If this appears to fix the problem for you (as described quite dramatically by people in this thread), then it's fixed. The problem doesn't move around because of the attenuation.

Stop spreading FUD, please.


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## AbMagFab

evlg said:


> How do I know which channels are on a frequency? How many frequencies do I have? Do I just have to try every single channel on the TiVo?


It doesn't matter. If you don't notice the problem anymore, it's fixed.


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## bkdtv

AbMagFab said:


> Not really. The channels are grouped about 10 per frequency (SD) and 2 per frequency (HD).
> 
> You can see the frequency of the channel on each card on the diagnostics screen.


I think you misinterpreted my comment. There isn't likely to be much difference between two adjacent QAM channels, so my suggestion was to check a handful of channels from different blocks. Verizon groups channels in QAM blocks as I indicated above.

If you were going to check one channel from each block after installing an attenuator, you might check for pixelization (or RS Uncorrected errors) on USA, your local NBC (SD), your local CBS (HD), FOOD-HD, and SHOHD or MHD.


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## jmr50

In spite of flushing $50 on AbMagFab's last suggestion for macroblocking problems (the ill-advised just-amp-it idea), I decided to give this one a try, because some of the measurements I'd collected suggested we were overdriving the TiVo. And, thankfully, it actually does seem to have helped the problem - 16dB of attenuation has worked great for 2 weeks now, and still going strong, with no side effects on any channels. If you're sitting on the fence, I can give a resoundingly positive vote. And, it was a cheap fix, too.


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## AbMagFab

jmr50 said:


> In spite of flushing $50 on AbMagFab's last suggestion for macroblocking problems (the ill-advised just-amp-it idea), I decided to give this one a try, because some of the measurements I'd collected suggested we were overdriving the TiVo. And, thankfully, it actually does seem to have helped the problem - 16dB of attenuation has worked great for 2 weeks now, and still going strong, with no side effects on any channels. If you're sitting on the fence, I can give a resoundingly positive vote. And, it was a cheap fix, too.


Nice to see you just throw money at problems without thinking. Glad to help.

Did you consider doing some problem solving yourself? Naw, that's too gosh darn complicated for you country-folk.

For what it's worth - amping is a solution for some problems, and attenuation is a solution for other problems. Amazing!


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## FiosUser

I have fixed my Fios + Tivo Series 3 pixelation problem this way.

I added two 3 and one 8 attenuators to the back of my Tivo. Problem solved. (I had pixelation on TNT and TBS).


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## dgbretz

Does it make any sense to have pixelation without any RS Uncorrected Errors? I have seen pixelation and then checked the diagnostics and not seen any errors.

I plan to try the attenuators to get to the 'right' SNR anyways but would like to understand why I don't see errors reported.


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## litkaj

AbMagFab said:


> No you don't. I wish you "theory" folks would stay in your own threads.
> 
> If this appears to fix the problem for you (as described quite dramatically by people in this thread), then it's fixed. The problem doesn't move around because of the attenuation.
> 
> Stop spreading FUD, please.


Yes, you do. It's not "theory" and it's certainly not FUD. The original problem is not moving; the new problem is occurring because certain channels are now too weak to tune properly. I know this can happen as it happened to me two months ago.

I started getting some breakups and pixelation on 459MHz through 477MHz (digital versions of 1-49 and all of the Music Choice channels). When running a cable directly to the ONT didn't help I figured the signal might have been too strong.

I broke out the collection of attenuators I had the install tech leave me when the CableCARDs were first "installed" and went to work. 459-477 cleared up with anywhere between 15-20dB of attenuation. However, at anything more than 17dB the channels in the low 700's started flaking out. I backed off to -16dB and now everything is fine.


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## sflippen

:up:
I just began having severe pixelation problems three months after installation. I was not aware of this suggestion on the forum. I thought that based on a varying signal strength (TiVo-provided) from 70-90% and sometimes all the way to 0 (lost lock), I was looking at a bad cable or a problem with incoming signal. The VZ HD STB worked fine, which was mildly frustrating when reporting the problem.
I insisted it was not a "TiVo" problem and requested a tech dispatch to check signal levels. She was proud to show me the results which were, "Excellent"!
Fortunately, there was a video SME, Sean, at the VZ Hampton FSC that was aware of the issue and advised to install the attenuator. The problem is solved!


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## vfrjim

Thanks for the fix, I had an adjustable Attenuator from Radio Shack hanging around, I attached it and adjusted it till it said 31 db(down from 38 db) and no more pixelization on my Tivo with Fios.


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## richsadams

vfrjim said:


> Thanks for the fix, I had an adjustable Attenuator from Radio Shack hanging around, I attached it and adjusted it till it said 31 db(down from 38 db) and no more pixelization on my Tivo with Fios.


Thanks for the update and welcome to the forum. :up:

I don't have any real macroblocking problems, but I have one of these and wondered if it is the same thing you're using JIC.


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## vfrjim

richsadams said:


> Thanks for the update and welcome to the forum. :up:
> 
> I don't have any real macroblocking problems, but I have one of these and wondered if it is the same thing you're using JIC.


looks like it but mine is black in color


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## litkaj

I've been looking for one of those for a while. Anyone know where to get one? Radio Shack doesn't sell them any more.


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## richsadams

litkaj said:


> I've been looking for one of those for a while. Anyone know where to get one? Radio Shack doesn't sell them any more.


When the OP mentioned the device it reminded me that I had something like it that I actually purchased years ago to address a red-push issue I had with a Mitsubishi RP TV I used to have. (It didn't really help.) For whatever reason I kept it in my box of electronic "stuff".

I don't have FIOS mad but I do have a very strong signal (35db - 37db) from Comcast and get some macroblocking on a couple of HD channels (NBC in particular). I thought about attenuating the incoming signal to see if it would make any difference and *vfrjim's *post peaked my interest.

I doubt that this little device will help much...it's pretty cheaply made and not very precise. I suspect that usng dedicated attenuators as others have suggested is the way to go but it might give me an indication if making some adjustments will work. I'll report back once I've given it a try.

I thought that RS might still be selling them based on a similar post from a few months ago.


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## bizzy

Wow, I thought I was probably the last person in the world using a mitsu rptv 

Are you still waiting for your "Promise" Module?


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## richsadams

bizzy said:


> Wow, I thought I was probably the last person in the world using a mitsu rptv
> 
> Are you still waiting for your "Promise" Module?


Ha! Good one! I just wish I had kept it now...it _was _"HD Ready" after all.


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## threshar

Well, I tried this fix, but I don't think this is my problem.

When I tune into say, PBS-HD the signal stays at 100 and SNR is pretty solid at 35-36db and I get no hiccups, pixelation, gray screens. 

However, when I tune into say, Showtime-HD the signal strength goes crazy - it jumps from 0-100 and the SNR jumps around accordingly, and I get lots of hiccups. 

Now, when this is happening, I can't tune into a channel in the same block - say StarzHD. But tuning into a local-hd channel works fine. signal goes back to sanity.

I tried various levels of attenuation (Luckly my pal had a similar problem and had a bag of them so I just borrowed them) from 24db to 3. nothing helped. a bit of attentuation may have reduced it a bit, but it still was going crazy.

Today for an experiment I'm going to move the tivo downstairs where the, oh lets call it, the virgin line comes in and see if it is the run verizon did from there to my livingroom. Still odd it mainly affects stations such as sho-hd. (I'd wager it has something to do with increased bandwidth usage).

I also get gray screen syndrome on some regular (SD) channels as well, but it is intermitent. (When it tunes in, I just get a gray screen. I'd wager it is very much related to the signal strenth issue).

and for the record, the line goes ont->40' outside->inside->splitter->tv1 and another 30' run to tv2. The tv1 has a -4 vz installed on it. the other has nothing. Verizon ran all the cables.

well, here's to hoping I can solve it. Really annoying when I get gray screen syndrome or none of my movies record or are pixelated.


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## richsadams

threshar said:


> Well, I tried this fix, but I don't think this is my problem.
> 
> When I tune into say, PBS-HD the signal stays at 100 and SNR is pretty solid at 35-36db and I get no hiccups, pixelation, gray screens.
> 
> However, when I tune into say, Showtime-HD the signal strength goes crazy - it jumps from 0-100 and the SNR jumps around accordingly, and I get lots of hiccups.
> 
> Now, when this is happening, I can't tune into a channel in the same block - say StarzHD. But tuning into a local-hd channel works fine. signal goes back to sanity.
> 
> I tried various levels of attenuation (Luckly my pal had a similar problem and had a bag of them so I just borrowed them) from 24db to 3. nothing helped. a bit of attentuation may have reduced it a bit, but it still was going crazy.
> 
> Today for an experiment I'm going to move the tivo downstairs where the, oh lets call it, the virgin line comes in and see if it is the run verizon did from there to my livingroom. Still odd it mainly affects stations such as sho-hd. (I'd wager it has something to do with increased bandwidth usage).
> 
> I also get gray screen syndrome on some regular (SD) channels as well, but it is intermitent. (When it tunes in, I just get a gray screen. I'd wager it is very much related to the signal strenth issue).
> 
> and for the record, the line goes ont->40' outside->inside->splitter->tv1 and another 30' run to tv2. The tv1 has a -4 vz installed on it. the other has nothing. Verizon ran all the cables.
> 
> well, here's to hoping I can solve it. Really annoying when I get gray screen syndrome or none of my movies record or are pixelated.


Sorry you're having troubles...it can be very frustrating. It may or may not be true in your case, but if you're getting a solid signal on some channels but not on others I'd call Verizon. It may have something to do with your setup or it could be a cable card issue...or it may (probably?) be something outside of your home.

We went through the same thing a while back...some channels were perfect while others were a mess or didn't work at all. When we called the CSR had us tune to various channels and finally isolated which "block" was giving us problems. They did some work on their end (no truck roll or anything) and in about an hour everything was fine. They may have re-hit our cable cards or it mght have been something else. 

The CSR explained that channels are delivered within certain frequencies. The frequencies aren't necessarilly related to the channels themselves (i.e. Showtime and Starz may or may not be part of the same group). That's why some will work normally and others won't.

Thanks for keeping us posted and let us know what you find out. :up:


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## TexasAg

My pixelation was minor at the prior attenuation level, but I went ahead and added more attenuation to my S3. But, the SNR varies from station to station. If I get one down to 32, others will drop to 30. I finally put in enough to get most stations down around 31-33. The weird thing is that it drops the signal strength down into the 70s, but the S3 seems OK with it. I think I might be seeing a little less pixelation now.


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## rifleman69

I've applied a 12 and a 6 so far, which drops the SR from 36-37 to 34-35. Either of the 12 and 6 reduces all uncorrected errors (and just about all of the corrected one's too) but every now and then I get a blip where the video freezes for about 2-3 seconds and then catches up. Having no attenuators makes both corrected and uncorrected shoot off into the hundreds of thousands very quickly.

Probably put on another 10-12 just to make sure, most of the individual channels strengths are still just under 100 if not at 100.


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## rifleman69

Now have 12 + 6 + 6 on and the SNR appears to fluctuate between 30 and 32. Couple of non-corrected errors on a non-HD channel (about 30 in the span of a couple of hours). Still noticed a little glitching on FOX HD last night during the football game.

It's getting better but not 100% yet. Signal strength is definitely not an issue.


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## Chris3G

am i correct in assuming that when you guys have a pixelation problem on a particular channel, it happens regardless of what is on the screen at the time? I've been noticing some macroblocking on my new TV with FIOS and Tivo HD, but it only happens during scenes with heavy motion. Is this inherent to the feed and not what you are all talking about here? My signal strength is locked at 100 and SNR is 36/37, but both RS corrected and uncorrected are always at 0.


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## rifleman69

For me, it doesn't matter what's happening on the particular channel although there is some sort of movement going on (it's not Sunrise Earth)


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## sesmith3

Ahhhh the Mitsu Promise Module... "Promise" as in Mitsubishi promises to lighten your wallet for another $1000 as soon as you decide you can't live without an HD tuner..


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## litkaj

Chris3G said:


> am i correct in assuming that when you guys have a pixelation problem on a particular channel, it happens regardless of what is on the screen at the time? I've been noticing some macroblocking on my new TV with FIOS and Tivo HD, but it only happens during scenes with heavy motion. Is this inherent to the feed and not what you are all talking about here? My signal strength is locked at 100 and SNR is 36/37, but both RS corrected and uncorrected are always at 0.


If RS Uncorrected is at 0 then that is in the feed. Some of the channels, such as DiscoveryHD, aren't broadcast at quite as high a bitrate as others (such as HDNet).


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## SGR215

I have an unusual issue. I'm noticing no pixelation so far however, I do notice at times "RS Uncorrected" will have 100+ when I first switch to a channel. It won't go any higher after it has tuned to the channel and I notice no issues in the feed whatsoever. Is this normal?

The vast majority of the time "RS Uncorrected" stays at 0 along with "RS Corrected".(There are times RS Corrected jumps to 3000 though) My signal hovers between 35-37DB.

Edit: Pixelation has arrived. Attenuators are on the way so hopefully it'll be fixed when they arrive.


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## SGR215

Hopefully someone can help me out. I installed a 6db attenuator when I first got them and everything seemed fine. 0 Corrected and 0 uncorrected RS errors. Today I suddenly noticed one of my HD channels was pixelating constantly and sure enough the RS Uncorrected errors was spiking significantly. I installed another 3db attenuator and now I'm not seeing any RS Uncorrected errors however, I'm seeing a lot of RS Corrected errors. For example, in 553 seconds I've had 4900+ RS corrected errors. Should I be concerned about this? I also can't attenuate to SNR 31 exactly. It hovers between 31-34db. If I put any more attenuators on it begins to pixelate bad and go into the mid 20's.


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## TexasAg

SGR215 said:


> I also can't attenuate to SNR 31 exactly. It hovers between 31-34db. If I put any more attenuators on it begins to pixelate bad and go into the mid 20's.


My S3 has done really good, and I'm between 31-33db.


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## richsadams

TexasAg said:


> My S3 has done really good, and I'm between 31-33db.


That seems to be the sweet spot. I've noticed that when I see issues the signal is usually 35 and above...sometimes up to 37.


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## rifleman69

I find 32/33 is better overall for all channels than 31. 31 left UHD and Discovery HD Theater at 28/29 which was totally unwatchable. 32/33 leaves everything between 31 and 34 which works just fine for me. It definitely was not exponential as tuning down 1 or 2 put a few channels down 3 or 4. Trial and error.


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## kmalone576

I've had FIOS with my S3 since last summer with no problems until past few weeks - severe pixelation on some channels not others that did not occur with the Verizon STB I also have. Tech came out and attenuated my signal which seemed to fix it. But I still have some problems on different channels... funny thing is I noticed in the diagnostics screen that one tuner has no problems on some channels and the other has a lot on the same channel (RS uncorrected skyrockets and severe pixelation). Does this sound like now I have a bad cable card on top of the other problem that I thought was fixed? Not looking forward to have to set up another appt for a new cable card install. Or does anyone think since I had a long period of no problems and nothing seems to have changed on Verizon's end that my S3 might be the problem?


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## bkdtv

kmalone576 said:


> I've had FIOS with my S3 since last summer with no problems until past few weeks - severe pixelation on some channels not others that did not occur with the Verizon STB I also have. Tech came out and attenuated my signal which seemed to fix it. But I still have some problems on different channels... funny thing is I noticed in the diagnostics screen that one tuner has no problems on some channels and the other has a lot on the same channel (RS uncorrected skyrockets and severe pixelation). Does this sound like now I have a bad cable card on top of the other problem that I thought was fixed? Not looking forward to have to set up another appt for a new cable card install. Or does anyone think since I had a long period of no problems and nothing seems to have changed on Verizon's end that my S3 might be the problem?


You may need more attenuation. As far as I know, CableCards do not cause RS Uncorrected errors, which is how TiVo measures the errors causing pixelization and dropouts.

It's best to buy your own $12 attenuator pack from Smarthome rather than asking Verizon to come out. That way, you can find just the right amount of attenuation that you need.


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## kmalone576

bkdtv said:


> You may need more attenuation. As far as I know, CableCards do not cause RS Uncorrected errors, which is how TiVo measures the errors causing pixelization and dropouts.
> 
> It's best to buy your own $12 attenuator pack from Smarthome rather than asking Verizon to come out. That way, you can find just the right amount of attenuation that you need.


So its possible that the current level of attenuation is good for one cable card but not the other? In other words for example channel 99 works fine on one cable card/tuner but is horribly pixelated on the other. I have some extra attenuators that the verizon tech left for me to play around with if I had other problems, but I would expect that the signal should affect both cable cards the same, but I could be wrong. Thanks for any advice!


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## kmalone576

Well I don't quite understand it, but I changed around the attenuation some more and now channel 99 works on both tuners... the verizon tech had put on an 8 and a 6 resulting in SNR of 27 on the tuner that was having problems with 99 and 29 on the other. I changed it to an 8 and a 3 now one is at 30 the other at 31 and so far so good. Thanks to whoever figured this out - the verizon tech seemed to realize a too hot signal was the problem, but did not about the tivo diagnostics screen.


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## rifleman69

Yeah, SNR of 27 is way too low. Being higher is better than lower in this case.


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## AndyMorrison

I have FIOS and am using a Series 3 and two TiVo HDs with S-cards. This morning on the Series 3 the reception of Fox Soccer Channel deteriorated to the point that nothing was being received. On the diagnostic screen it appeared that the TiVo was unable to get a signal lock and the modulation indication kept changing from QAM-256 to QAM-64. After about 25 or 30 minutes, during which I did nothing, the channel finally came in and was mostly watchable after that. Since I was recording the program on one of the TiVo HDs in another room I assumed that when I watched the recording I would see the same problem as the Series 3. However, the recording was perfect with no signal loss or pixellation. Does this sound like a 'too hot' signal or is it more likely a problem with my Series 3? BTW, I've seen pixellation before on the Series 3 but I don't recall ever losing the signal completely.


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## darthplagueis86

I have done the reccomnended fix, putting on 10DB antenuator, whch fixes my pixelation on the majority of my channels. However, there are a few remaining channels that I watch a lot that have major problems still (ABC HD). My SNR is at 31/32, but I have RS correct numbers/RS uncorrected numbers in the 500-5000 range most of the time on that one channel. I have tried resetting my tivo, that didn't work. I have a good strong signal according at the verizon cable guy. Why is this still happening on this certain channel? Any sugesstions?


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## rifleman69

Try an 8, remember not every channel comes in at the same SNR.


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## richsadams

darthplagueis86 said:


> I have a good strong signal according at the verizon cable guy.


Welcome to the forum and sorry you're having trouble, it can be frustrating indeed. The problem is that your signal may be _too _strong which is just as bad as one that is too weak. Verizon assumes the stronger the signal the better. That's why an attenuator works for some folks...it reduces or "attenuates" the signal strength.

As *rifleman69 *suggests, additional experimentation may be in order.


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## darthplagueis86

richsadams said:


> Welcome to the forum and sorry you're having trouble, it can be frustrating indeed. The problem is that your signal may be _too _strong which is just as bad as one that is too weak. Verizon assumes the stronger the signal the better. That's why an attenuator works for some folks...it reduces or "attenuates" the signal strength.
> 
> As *rifleman69 *suggests, additional experimentation may be in order.


I have tried every possible antenoator combo and I seem to still have this problem. I've narrowed it down to the 9/10DB strength level, that brings down my SNR number to 32/33. I still can't get rid of the RS corrected and RS Uncorrected numbers to go away on some channels. Most of the channels are fine, but some, including some major HD channels, like ABC HD, Universal HD, Discovery HD Theater, are still having pixelation problems. My signal stength says it's around 75. Is there anything else I can do to fix this, or I may have to go back to my old verizon cable box, since it wasn't a problem there.


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## richsadams

darthplagueis86 said:


> I have tried every possible antenoator combo and I seem to still have this problem. I've narrowed it down to the 9/10DB strength level, that brings down my SNR number to 32/33. I still can't get rid of the RS corrected and RS Uncorrected numbers to go away on some channels. Most of the channels are fine, but some, including some major HD channels, like ABC HD, Universal HD, Discovery HD Theater, are still having pixelation problems. My signal stength says it's around 75. Is there anything else I can do to fix this, or I may have to go back to my old verizon cable box, since it wasn't a problem there.


It sounds like you've done everything you can do to address the signal issue. I'd have a look at the cable cards next. There have been reports for months of cable cards being faulty (particularly Scientific Atlanta cards) and especially with slot #1. Many have had numerous cable cards installed before they worked without issue. I can't remember if you said which TiVo you have, but if you have the TiVo HD, some folks are switching from two "S" cards to an "M" card and seeing results.

When we moved recently our cable guy brought about a dozen cards with him saying that some work and some don't...and that getting them to work was kind of a Russian roulette game.  Fortunately two "S" cards worked right away with our S3 and a new "M" card worked fine with our THD.

Anyway, that would be my next step. It's also quite possible that your TiVo is just not doing what it's supposed to do and may need to be replaced. You might get a case started with TiVo. Sometimes they'll arrange a three-way call with you and Verizon to try to sort things out.

Best of luck!


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## rifleman69

darthplagueis86 said:


> I have tried every possible antenoator combo and I seem to still have this problem. I've narrowed it down to the 9/10DB strength level, that brings down my SNR number to 32/33. I still can't get rid of the RS corrected and RS Uncorrected numbers to go away on some channels. Most of the channels are fine, but some, including some major HD channels, like ABC HD, Universal HD, Discovery HD Theater, are still having pixelation problems. My signal stength says it's around 75. Is there anything else I can do to fix this, or I may have to go back to my old verizon cable box, since it wasn't a problem there.


Call TiVo and explain your problem. Another thing to note (at least for me) is that a single 12db attenuator had more signal degradation than a 10 and a 3. My picture was better at 32/33 than 31. You might also have Verizon come out and turn down the signal a bit on the ONT that's on your house.


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## darthplagueis86

Well, the Verizon cable guy came out today, and he said I should not be using any attenuators at all, that just makes the problem worse. I agree with him, because ever since I started using them, my picture has gotten worse, and even doesn't come in on certain channels, and that's with just 8db on. He boosted the signal strength, which as temporarily solved the pixelation, but we will see how long it lasts. He also changed a splitter and wiring in our hose, and said that may have been the cause. I will monitor the progrees the next few days, and hopefully the problem has been fixed, but after many tries, and 4 different cable appointments, I am not sure it is completely gone.


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## richsadams

darthplagueis86 said:


> Well, the Verizon cable guy came out today, and he said I should not be using any attenuators at all, that just makes the problem worse. I agree with him, because ever since I started using them, my picture has gotten worse, and even doesn't come in on certain channels, and that's with just 8db on. He boosted the signal strength, which as temporarily solved the pixelation, but we will see how long it lasts. He also changed a splitter and wiring in our hose, and said that may have been the cause. I will monitor the progrees the next few days, and hopefully the problem has been fixed, but after many tries, and 4 different cable appointments, I am not sure it is completely gone.


Good to hear things are looking up. :up:

Curious as to what you're seeing for SNR on various channels now that the signal has been increased.

Also noted that a number of folks have resolved problems by replacing coax and/or splitters (or removing splitters altogether) and that others were successful with attenuators. It's obvious that there's no obvious "silver bullet".

Thanks for the feedback and best of luck.


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## ChickenCheese

I started seeing some pixellation after my install, so I installed a 10 and a 6 attenuator (the SNR was around 35-36). It dropped to about 33 and for the most part, the problems went away. However, I've been noticing that some times the audio part drops out for a second or two (video stays unaffected). When this happens, I go to the diagnostic screen to look, but there wasn't any uncorrected errors.

Any ideas what could be causing this?

The audio dropouts seem to happen when I change to certain channels. And then the dropouts only last about 5 minutes. So if I'm watching a hour long show, I'll only have problems for about the first 5 minutes. Then it's fine.


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## darthplagueis86

richsadams said:


> Good to hear things are looking up. :up:
> 
> Curious as to what you're seeing for SNR on various channels now that the signal has been increased.
> 
> Also noted that a number of folks have resolved problems by replacing coax and/or splitters (or removing splitters altogether) and that others were successful with attenuators. It's obvious that there's no obvious "silver bullet".
> 
> Thanks for the feedback and best of luck.


Well, after 2 days of the problem going away, it is slowly, but surely returning again. My SNR number is at 35/36 on all of my channels, and I have 0 RS corrected numbers and 0 RS uncorrected numbers. I am only getting pixelation on about 3/4 of my HD channels, but after the cable guy came two days ago, it was fine on all channels. I have a feeling that it will progressively get worse again. When the cable guy came, I told him that Tivo said my cable cards are activated, but not paired up, and he said he had no clue what that means. He also said that the attenuators are making my problem worse, and that RS corrected numbers are not causing this either. I am really doubting the knowledge of Tivo and Verizon at this point, because both have been giving me the runaround for weeks. I am at a loss at to what I should do next. I am am considering even returning Tivo, and just going back to the regular verizon HD box. Any last minute advice?


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## richsadams

darthplagueis86 said:


> Well, after 2 days of the problem going away, it is slowly, but surely returning again. My SNR number is at 35/36 on all of my channels, and I have 0 RS corrected numbers and 0 RS uncorrected numbers. I am only getting pixelation on about 3/4 of my HD channels, but after the cable guy came two days ago, it was fine on all channels. I have a feeling that it will progressively get worse again. When the cable guy came, I told him that Tivo said my cable cards are activated, but not paired up, and he said he had no clue what that means. He also said that the attenuators are making my problem worse, and that RS corrected numbers are not causing this either. I am really doubting the knowledge of Tivo and Verizon at this point, because both have been giving me the runaround for weeks. I am at a loss at to what I should do next. I am am considering even returning Tivo, and just going back to the regular verizon HD box. Any last minute advice?


SNR of 35/36 (or higher) is above the "sweet spot" of 31/32. It may be enough to cause problems. Cableco's are famous for just increasing the signal strength rather than fine-tuning it to the ideal. I'd have another go with the cable guy again...and this time ask for someone that understands cable cards and TiVo. If it was good for a while, something is changing to cause problems. It may well be that something is wrong with TiVo but until everything is right from the cable company, that will be hard to determine.

If you have a TiVo case number, keep it open and if you can't get satisfaction from the cableco ask TiVo for a three-way call so you, the cableco and TiVo can all be on the line at the same time.

Hang in there...it _can _work! With four-million + subscriptions I guess there will be some problems and it's too bad that you (or anyone) has to go through these sorts of things. You have my sympathy and I wouldn't blame you if you bailed, but it might be worth another look.


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## ilh

Hold on a sec. If he is seeing 0 uncorrected RS errors, how can this be a signal problem (too hot)?


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## AbMagFab

richsadams said:


> SNR of 35/36 (or higher) is above the "sweet spot" of 31/32. It may be enough to cause problems. Cableco's are famous for just increasing the signal strength rather than fine-tuning it to the ideal. I'd have another go with the cable guy again...and this time ask for someone that understands cable cards and TiVo. If it was good for a while, something is changing to cause problems. It may well be that something is wrong with TiVo but until everything is right from the cable company, that will be hard to determine.
> 
> If you have a TiVo case number, keep it open and if you can't get satisfaction from the cableco ask TiVo for a three-way call so you, the cableco and TiVo can all be on the line at the same time.
> 
> Hang in there...it _can _work! With four-million + subscriptions I guess there will be some problems and it's too bad that you (or anyone) has to go through these sorts of things. You have my sympathy and I wouldn't blame you if you bailed, but it might be worth another look.


If you see 0/0 on the RS items, then it's a source problem, not a Tivo or signal problem.


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## richsadams

AbMagFab said:


> If you see 0/0 on the RS items, then it's a source problem, not a Tivo or signal problem.


That's pretty much my take on it too.


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## darthplagueis86

Ok, the cable guy is coming out again(for a 5th time) and I noticed that my RS corrected/uncorrected numbers have gon efrom 0 from last night, now they are at 400-600 range. I will tell the cable guy to check the signal source, as you reccomended. I'll let you know what he does. I hope this works this time!!!


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## richsadams

IIRC the recommend signal strength should be -10 to +10 dBmV with a SNR of 31-32. The tech should be putting a device on the line at the TiVo connection point to measure the signal. To address these issues most cableco's will simply increase the signal strength which may work for their own STB's and DVR's (particularly one's w/o cable cards) but too strong a signal (just as too weak a signal) can cause havoc with TiVo. 

The RS corrected/uncorrected numbers indicate a signal/tuner issue for that particular channel at that particular time. It's possible/probable that you would have seen an erratic SNR at that time as well.


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## darthplagueis86

Now my tivo won't even receive any HD channels at all. I called tivo, they insists that the cable cards need to be paired up, then I call verizon to ask them to pair them up. Verizon will not provide any support at all because it is a tivo product, and the cable cards have already been swaped, the lines have been checked, and the signal is fine. So basically, I have no service at all on my tivo hd channels, and neither compnay will help me out. I have a $800 tivo box, which does not work, and it not eliglbe for return. What to do???


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## ciucca

darthplagueis86 said:


> Now my tivo won't even receive any HD channels at all. I called tivo, they insists that the cable cards need to be paired up, then I call verizon to ask them to pair them up. Verizon will not provide any support at all because it is a tivo product, and the cable cards have already been swaped, the lines have been checked, and the signal is fine. So basically, I have no service at all on my tivo hd channels, and neither compnay will help me out. I have a $800 tivo box, which does not work, and it not eliglbe for return. What to do???


Did you try the attenuator work around? You can order from smart home.


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## darthplagueis86

yes, no luck..just made things worse. on the right now with tivo/verizon trying to get my cable cards paired up...that is what tvio says will fix the problem, but verizon will not pair them up, just activate them. This is hell!!


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## ciucca

let us know what happens. As far as I know Verizon does not pair the cards to the device. In the CC menu on my TIVO, in "the conditional access" menu. The "host validation" is unknown 00. I would be interested to know if pairing actually makes a difference. I have heard that Verizon is not able to pair the cards at this time in their system, but may be able to by the end of the year.


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## ochlocracy

I&#8217;ve been working on trying to solve my problems for weeks now, and I think I finally got this band-aid fix to work. I&#8217;ve done a lot to get my Series 3 & Tivo HD to work with FiOS. I just wanted to make a post here with all the information I&#8217;ve collected because I think it could help lead to a more permanent fix. 

When I first got my series 3back in June I had pixilation on almost all my SD channels, none on my HD. After a month or so it went away on it&#8217;s own and worked great up until Dec. Since Dec. I&#8217;ve had the problem on about a dozen SD channels, still all of the HD are fine. After reading through all of the information here I found the attenuator fix, but was unable to find the correct combination. I&#8217;d get to the point where pixilation occurred once every 5 min, instead of once every 5 sec. which was watchable, but that would drop my signal so low that at certain times of the day I couldn&#8217;t tune to some channels ie. HD. 

Without attenuation my signal is great on my all my channels except the dozen or so that pixilate. The good channels are all above 95, and fluctuate between 95-100 every 3-4 sec. The bad channels are all over the board, and fluctuate typically from 40-100 every sec. 

I tried all the things mentioned on the forums; replaced cable cards, replaced splitters, attenuation, ran a direct line to the ONT, replaced the ONT, removed all other devices from the line including ActionTech router, etc.

So I finally started to investigate this further and found out that the channels I have problems with share the same frequencies. I am in the Tampa area and these are the channels that I have problems with on my Series 3 and the frequencies they run on.

Tivo Series 3 
Station	Freq (Mhz)	Channel
Lifetime 435.000 120
Oxygen 435.000 124
Bravo 435.000 165
Nick 435.000 256
History 441.000 108
SOAP 441.000 123
Style 441.000 140
Scifi 441.000 160
A&E 441.000 161
Toon Disney	441.000 221
CNN 447.000 80
CNN-HL 447.000 81
CNN-WN 447.000 86
Cartoon Network	447.000 227
Boom 447.000 228

I haven&#8217;t had time to check every channel one by one, but since I started seeing the pattern I was certain now It&#8217;s Verizon signal&#8230;.or some interference in that range&#8230;or tivo doesn&#8217;t like that range. 

I had a Verizon tech out here this morning, and the tech turned out of be an old acquaintance so I jumped at the opportunity to bug the hell of him, probe him for information and ask him for as many favors as I could in order to solve this problem once and for all because I didn&#8217;t have any luck with attenuation, and was certain my problems lay with their signal. He admitted he wasn&#8217;t the most knowledgably person to talk to about why those frequencies were the only ones that were affected but said he would take any information I had and pass it to someone who would. 

I got him to bring out his test meter and plug it into my line. Results showed the signal was anyway from -1db to +2db on the channels he was trained to test, think he said 2, 50, and 2??; so I asked him to punch in 80 and his metered showed -30db, then channel 120 also showed -30s. Now he was unsure if the channel option actually tuned to the actual channel associated for TV signal, but only my bad channels were showing the -30db, everything else was near 0&#8230;so... possible more evidence that it&#8217;s Verizon&#8217;s signal. 

We were unable to solve the problem while he was here, but he did leave me another pile of attenuators so I could continue to play musical attenuators.
I printed out all the information we had so he could pass it along to another tech. I&#8217;m hoping to get a call tomorrow from another tech that understands the cable system a little better, and it willing to work with me on this TiVo issue assuming its Verizon&#8217;s signal. 

After he left, I finally decided to see if I could get this attenuator fix to work. I removed all the excess coax and splitters going to other TVs and just focused on my series 3, and after 22.5db worth of attenuation (in the middle of the line, not at the TiVo) it&#8217;s the best it&#8217;s going to get. There is still pixilation, but it&#8217;s minimal, maybe once an hour and my other channels seem to have enough strength @70s with a SNR 32-34. So in my case 31 was not the magic number on my Series 3. (22.5db includes all attenuation from the ONT, all splitters, and attenuators)

After the success with the Series 3 I went to my TiVo HD to try to get rid of the problems on the two channels. Pixilation solved at 20.5db of attenuation, Signal strength @80s, and SNR of 31-32. 

While I was trying the attenuator fix I called TiVo support in hopes they had a new answer to my problem since the last time I called. The support agent was interested in the frequencies that were problematic, and asked for all the info I had about them so she could pass it along; but still no new information.

All in all after weeks of trying to tune to SNR of 31 with attenuators, I finally got this fix to work. I still hope to hear from a new tech tomorrow, and try to solve the problem without using so much attenuation, I&#8217;ll keep you guys posted. But I&#8217;d like to see what channels/frequencies/market others were having their problems I believe it could lead to a more permanent fix.


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## ciucca

I'm am having the same problems with the same frequencies you are, the only difference is that they are mapped to the digital local channels I receive here in NNJ. It's my guess everyone is experiencing problems on the low frequencies, but depending were you are different channels are mapped to them, explaining why it shows up on different channels for different people.

I think it's definitely the low frequency bands that are having the issue. Sorry the attenuation has not worked for you. I am using 16dbmv of attenuation and although I still get low number of uncorrected errors in the QAM freq range you mention, it is barely noticeable, a few hundreds in a about 4 hours time. Keep trying the attenuators you may need a few db more.

Good write up. I'm glad you are keeping on top of the issue. I hope it can be fixed in software, but I'm skeptical, I think it is the QAM tuners TIVO uses. I read somewhere that TIVO uses a consumer grade QAM tuner, and Motorola uses a better one. What else explains why the Motorola STBs don't have nearly the same problem. TIVO probably used cheap tuners to save money. I work in the telecommunications hardware industry and I can't count how many times cheaper hardware chips were substituted to save production costs. The majority of the time it came back to bit them, because the chip did not perform to spec.


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## GoHokies!

ciucca said:


> Good write up. I'm glad you are keeping on top of the issue. I hope it can be fixed in software, but I'm skeptical, I think it is the QAM tuners TIVO uses. I read somewhere that TIVO uses a consumer grade QAM tuner, and Motorola uses a better one. What else explains why the Motorola STBs don't have nearly the same problem. TIVO probably used cheap tuners to save money. I work in the telecommunications hardware industry and I can't count how many times cheaper hardware chips were substituted to save production costs. The majority of the time it came back to bit them, because the chip did not perform to spec.


Can you explain how test equipment measures all the channels near 0dB except for the "problem channels" (which are at -30dB) is in any way whatsoever related to the tuners that Tivo used in their hardware?

(hint: Not possible. It's a Verizon problem).


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## ciucca

GoHokies! said:


> Can you explain how test equipment measures all the channels near 0dB except for the "problem channels" (which are at -30dB) is in any way whatsoever related to the tuners that Tivo used in their hardware?
> 
> (hint: Not possible. It's a Verizon problem).


I can only speak to my house were I am having a similar issue. I have tested the signal and although there are signal fluctuations it is no where near a 30db drop. I and many others that have Motorola boxes and TIVO have a problem with the TIVO. Explain that. Logic tells me if the Motorola boxes work and the Tivo does not , then, well what do you think it is


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## rschare

I've read a bunch of these threads. Can someone tell me how to test the attenuation of the signal? Do I do this on different channels? Thank you.


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## ochlocracy

I did some more trouble shooting today trying to narrow down the problem. 

I started with the Motorola box. This box sits in a room that no one is ever in so I have not known if there has been any pixilation. Hooked it up; direct line to the ONT no attenuation. So I sat in there watching about an hour worth of TV flipping through the channels, watching the known bad channels for anything. No pixilation occurred during the this time, but I did notice that the pictured appeared to stumble.. Hard to explain, but I figured I was looking to deep into it trying to find anything. 

The Motorola box is a SD box attached to an SD TV via composite so I thought maybe composite might handle the problems (if they were there) differently since its an analog signal. So I moved to my Tivo HD and hooked it up with both S-video and composite; pixilation still occurred without the correct attenuation. 

The Motorola box does pixilate when it is first tuning to any channel, but thats all I could find. I was also able to make it pixilate when I fiddled with the coax, not necessarily the connections, but just moving it around. 

Next I moved onto my Samsung HD TV that had a cable card in the back and had some success. I first ran a direct line from the ONT without any attenuation. Then I stole a cable card from my TiVo HD and put it in the back, and started flipping through the channels. Found some new channels that pixilated, and what do u know the 3 channels I found are all on the same frequency. It appears my HDTV doesnt like the 777mhz. 

So now of my 3 cable card devices, each of them dislikes its own frequencies. 

Heres my current list. 

Tivo HD 
Station Freq (Mhz)	Channel
WGN	411.000	9
Comedy	429.000	170

Tivo Series 3 
Station	Freq (Mhz)	Channel
Lifetime	435.000	120
Oxygen	435.000	124
Bravo	435.000	165
Nick	435.000	256
History	441.000	108
SOAP	441.000	123
Style	441.000	140
Scifi	441.000	160
A&E	441.000	161
Toon Disney	441.000	221
CNN	447.000	80
CNN-HL	447.000	81
CNN-WN	447.000	86
Cartoon Network	447.000	227
Boom	447.000	228

Samsung HDTV 
Station	Freq (Mhz)	Channel
FUNIMAT	777.000	231
TVONE	777.000	241
FAMNET	777.000	212


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## rifleman69

rschare said:


> I've read a bunch of these threads. Can someone tell me how to test the attenuation of the signal? Do I do this on different channels? Thank you.


Yes, under diagnostics in the tivo menu. You can tune to any channel you receive and you'll see how good of a signal is coming in.


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## ciucca

One interesting thing I noticed last night while troubleshooting a QIP6416 issue.
I was "unscrewing" the cable from the back of the Moto 6416 box and my wife noticed pixelation on the TIVOHD (I have 16db of attenuation on the tivo). I then put the diagnostics screen on the tivo and had my wife remove and replace the 6416 cable in the other room, and the uncorrected and corrected errors started rapidly increasing on the tivo.

I am going to try to turn off all the other moto boxes I have and the router and see if I still get pixelation without the attenuation. It's possible the 2-way communication and/or the moca on the coax is causing interference the tivo can't handle. Has anyone already tried this test? To be able to test this for a 24 hour period I will have to send the family away for a few days  Just wondering if anyone tried it, before I start fighting with my family.


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## GoHokies!

That's a really good thought.


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## ochlocracy

ciucca said:


> It's possible the 2-way communication and/or the moca on the coax is causing interference the tivo can't handle. Has anyone already tried this test? To be able to test this for a 24 hour period I will have to send the family away for a few days  Just wondering if anyone tried it, before I start fighting with my family.


Yeah I had my ONT switched over ethernet for my internet so I didn't have to use crappy ActionTech router with the super small 1KB NAT table. So my 1 motorla box no longer receives guide data, and my internet is no longer on the MoCA.

Didn't fix the problems.


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## ciucca

Well, after literally hours of getting nowhere with DirecTV and having them send out a service tech (who replaced my triple-LNB+multiswitch) to no avail, I have finally found what is going on. If someone at DirecTV can get this to an engineer, I'd be thankful.

To summarize the problem: Following the upgrade to some Series 2 DTiVos from 3.1.1c to 3.1.1d, the odd transponders would not function on one of the inputs. On mine, it was #1, on many people's it was #2. The problem is the same. Sometimes switching cables will solve or temporarily solve the problem. However, most people have not had success with this, including me.

Here's what I believe the problem to be, and a workaround until D* figures out they created the problem with the software upgrade:

The 3.1.1d rev of the software changed the "cobra" driver and removed an option "gHighPowerLnb" from the internals (this forum won't let me post the name of the other one, so you'll need to do a Google search to find where I saw this). In addition, I have built a signal attenuator (see below) that reduces the signal level on the input that cannot address the odd transponders that has worked. It looks to me like they now assume that ALL multiswitches and/or LNBs are "high power" and have increased the signal level. This excessive signal from the DTiVo to the LNB/multiswitch causes it to overload and not function properly.

The solution is for D* to admit there's a bug, put the fire under the rears of their engineers to repair the driver, and get a fix out to their customers pronto. My experiences with them in the past week doesn't give me much confidence in this, but I can only hope...

Anybody remember this fron D* in 2004? The FIOS Pixelation is very similar. I'll bet it is a software issue and it needs to be fixed in the next software release. the temporary fix was signal attenuation.  I guess TIVO is a quality software house.


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## psuzebra

Just wanted to share my experience...

After a couple months of normal use, I started experiencing some issues with my FIOS TV + TiVoHD on Friday night.

826 ESPN HD and 827 ESPN2 HD wouldn't show up. The THD just kept saying something about searching for a signal. 840 Food HD and 841 HGTV HD would experience a lot of pixelation and audio and video dropping. I had originally 13db worth of attenuators in the coax going into the THD to get an SNR of ~31.

I went all weekend hoping the issue would just fix itself. Duh me.

On Monday, I added another 3db attenuator to the line. After a few minutes, 826 and 827 both came in okay and the pixelation on 840 and 841 went away. The SNR is now about 28.

Not sure what changed, but so far so good.


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## ilh

I have 19dB attenuation (10dB attenuator plus 3.5dB 2-way splitter plus 5.5dB 3-way splitter) and am at SNR 35/36. I don't have any pixelation that I can see.

I did see a bit on a few channels when I had only 12dB attenuation and SNR of 38/39.


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## ochlocracy

psuzebra & ilh What frequencies are those channels on in your area?

Tune to channel > Tivo > Messages & Settings > Sys Info > Diag. make sure you're looking at the correct tunner and channel.


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## jpeelers

Went the attenuator route and it has improved the situation but not eliminated it. Best SNR for us has been 34/35. Anything lower and we go to "FAIR". My question relates to errors, however. Uncorrected are pretty much nailed at 0 but correctable errors range from a few hundred to a four or five thousand. Excuse my ignorance - I am a newbie - but is this a problem? If so, what is my next step? Thanks!

Judy


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## gguillot

I have been fighting the same issues with my Series 3 and my fiber-to-the-home provider (GVTC.) No one - I mean the cable company AND Tivo - seem to be able to fix the problem, nor do they seem to care. If you can live with the Verizon's DVR shortcomings, I suggest you get your money back for the Tivo - otherwise you could be like me and still fighting with it a year after you bough it.


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## ciucca

Lets face it. If you want to get rid of the pixelation you are going to have to use the attenuator work around, posted multiple times on this board. If the attenuator trick doesn't work then you are truly F*#$ed.

I know enough about RF and DSP to know that the problem is not the service provider (verizon, comcast, etc), not the signal, it is the Tivo hardware circuitry. I don't care what others on this board think. A majority I believe don't want to face the truth and blame their beloved Tivo Corporation. It's my educated guess that the problem is the Tivo hardware and cannot be tweaked in software, or the QAM tuner driver, otherwise it would have been fixed by now.

If Tivo cared about their customers they would admit it is their fault. They would redesign the QAM tuner circuitry and replace the tuner with a better one (more costly) and offer everyone having the issue an even exchange when the newly designed boxes are available.

I'm sure Tivo is marginally surviving financially and is scared to admit the problem. This is probably the reason they opted for cheap crap hardware to begin with. It's time for the Tivo employees on this board to own up and admit the hardware is unfixable. We all like to rip microsoft, but at least they owned up to the problems in the xbox 360 design and are replacing defective xboxs with a refurbished unit that has an updated motherboard that fixes the issue. I understand that Tivo does not have the financial resources microsoft has, but pretending it is the cable providers problem and sweeping it under the rug is not the answer either. I know 10 people in NNJ having pixelation issues with FIOS and cable, and none are going to ever buy another Tivo again unless something is done. So sticking your head in the sand is not going to make your company last any longer.

Time for TivoPony and other Tivo people here to admit and address the pixelation problem as the sev 1 show stopper issue that it is, and do something about it.

Of course this is my rant, thank you for reading.


----------



## ilh

I noticed a fair bit of pixelation and uncorrected RS errors on Discovery HD Theater today, channel 836 and 747MHz I believe. It looks like I'll need to try more than 19dB of total attenuation to drop from 35/36dB down to 31ish.


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## kmalone576

So although I posted earlier that I had fixed the problem by adding 11db worth of attenuation, after only a few weeks it appears I was wrong. Yesterday I started notice pixelation on the showtime channels 361,362, etc. Looking at the diagnostics, the SNR was ranging 29-33. I decided to experiment by adding less and more attenuation. Going from 11 to 9 made the RS uncorrected skyrocket... so I tried going to 12. This improved the RS Uncorrected errors (but they still did slowly accumulate). However this small increase in signal attenuation made other channels (e.g. 99 TWC) unwatchable due to pixelation. So with 11 db of attenuation I can watch TWC clearly with pixelation on Showtime and with 12 db of attenuation Showtime is a better (though not perfect) but TWC is unwatchable. The problem with this fix it doesn't fix all the channels. Fortunately I mostly watch the HD channels which all seem okay (right now) with either combination. 

This is really getting irritating however. I have a Verizon HD box hooked up to the same TV on a different input and it has no problems on any channel. I could call verizon again and I'm sure they would come out and check it out again, but I have to say if it works with their equipment I think the problem lies with Tivo more than there signal. Maybe their signal is not perfect, but apparently their STB can handle its fluctuations or strength. 

Maybe the problem lies with Tivo's ?low quality? tuner as someone suggested. But if I continue to have problems I can't keep playing with attenuators or spend a whole day waiting for a verizon tech to come out or spend hours on hold with tivo tech service only have them tell me the problem must be with Verizon. Nor should anyone have to after spending the money for a S3. I am getting more and more tempted to give up on Tivo and deal with a suboptimal DVR interface rather than a suboptimal picture.


----------



## ciucca

If you haven't called Verizon then do it if not then don't waste your time calling them again. They are very nice they will come to your house change everything (wires, cable cards, ONT, etc), but it ain't going to help. It's definitely the tivo, otherwise the tivo people who read this board would speak up and defend their product.


----------



## kmalone576

I agree - I'm actually quite impressed with the effort that Verizon has put out in order to try to make it work unfortunately there's not much more they can do.


----------



## sturdydog

Sorry for any cross posting, I posted this in the other Pixelation thread and it was suggested that here might be a better spot as this is Verizon specific.

I too am having pixelation troubles with Verizon FIOS. I have a question I have not seen anybody touch on. I have two TiVos. One Series 3, one HD. The Series 3 works perfect, hardly ever seen a corrected packet and never a an uncorrected one. While the HD has all kinds of issues and many channels are only useable only after 24db of attenuatuation. Believe me all things are equal between the units from a signal standpoint as I have swapped cable cards / cables / splitters everyway possible and the results are the same.

The one thing that I find different between the two is the Series 3 shows Channel Bits: 30750 in the diagnostics screen, while the HD unit shows 30746. What does this number mean? Could this be the cause of my problems?

Can everybody please share what channel bits their system shows and whether or not they are having this problem?


----------



## NovaFIOS

I have had FIOS since July 07 and have had multiple problems with their Motorola Box. I am on my third box after the previous 2 died, 2 within a week of each other. The box stinks, the software stinks and it craps out way too much. The one thing is that the picture has been really good. The HD is flawless, the SD could be a bit better, but no pixelation or anything.

Because of the problems, I finally decided the time has come to bite the bullet and purchase a TIVO HD to replace the crappy moto box. I have done some research regarding cable cards and attenuation etc, however after reading this thread, I am now really nervous whether the thing is going to work correctly with FIOS. IF i do not get the same perfect picture with TIVO that I was getting with FIOS and I spent nearly $300 on a TIVO, my wife is going to kill me. Did I make a big mistake????


----------



## ciucca

NovaFIOS,

All I can tell you is if I spent time reading the posts concerning FIOS and TIVOHD I would NOT have purchased it. Everyone rags on the motorola HD boxes you rent from FIOS. I admit they have their problems, but at least they do not pixelate on any channel for me. IMO the pixelation outways all the other issues. Now you can "fix" pixelation if you want to go the attenuator route. It improved my problem 90-95&#37;, but you are taking a risk, that you are one of the few the work around does not help. What area of the country are you in? From the multitudes of posts it's possible some FIOS areas may not have a problem (maybe just a theory). 

Again if I know now what I didn't know then, I would have waited, to see if a solution is ever found before spending $300 for the tivo and wireless gizmo, and $200 for the dvr extender. This is the opinion of 1 person.


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## bkdtv

I am in N. VA and had pixelization on a few SD channels. Adding an attenuator eliminated the pixelization on those channels.

If you are really worried, then buy the TiVo locally -- I believe BB and CC both have it for around $250 -- so you can return it if you are in the minority with pixelization issues that an attenuator does not address. You have 30 days to cancel service and return the TiVo without any penalty, aside from the $25 Verizon CableCard installation fee.

You could keep the Motorola DVR in the meantime, if you want. In N. VA, customers are now permitted to drop-off old equipment at Fair Oaks Mall (thus avoiding the pickup fee).


----------



## brigont

Guys, 

Anyone know of an adjustable attenuation module of some sort. 

Sure, these fixed db attenuators are a cheap solution. What about an expensive box with an adjustable attenuator control that lets you dial in the exact amount of att you need for perfect reception. 

I also like lighting my firepalce with cash and wiping my A**with... well you get the point!

BG


----------



## richsadams

brigont said:


> Guys,
> 
> Anyone know of an adjustable attenuation module of some sort. BG


As in these posts from earlier in this thread? IIRC someone posted info about a more modern version from RS which included a signal amp but actually attenuated the signal however I can't seem to find it right now.


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## sflippen

bkdtv said:


> You could keep the Motorola DVR in the meantime, if you want. In N. VA, customers are now permitted to drop-off old equipment at Fair Oaks Mall (thus avoiding the pickup fee).


DON'T RETURN any HD equipment to Verizon! They are now "out-of-stock" On their HD STB's and DVR's. I believe they estimate mid-March before they get more in, but they already have a backlog of pending installs.

Hold on to them long enough to confirm you have any trouble, because you won't be able to go pick them up right away if you do!


----------



## sturdydog

Thought I would give this a little bump as I have not seen any reponse.

I have an HD and a Series 3, the Series 3 works flawlessly and the HD has a lot of pixelation problems. The one thing that I find different between the two is the Series 3 shows Channel Bits: 30750 in the diagnostics screen, while the HD unit shows 30746. What does this number mean? Could this be the cause of my problems?

What Channel bits are the rest of you showing with and without problems?


----------



## bkdtv

sturdydog said:


> Thought I would give this a little bump as I have not seen any reponse.
> 
> I have an HD and a Series 3, the Series 3 works flawlessly and the HD has a lot of pixelation problems. The one thing that I find different between the two is the Series 3 shows Channel Bits: 30750 in the diagnostics screen, while the HD unit shows 30746. What does this number mean? Could this be the cause of my problems?
> 
> What Channel bits are the rest of you showing with and without problems?


My TivoHD reports 30750 for N. VA FiOS.

I had pixelization on a handful of SD channels but a 10dB attenuator (on top of my other splitters / existing attenuation) eliminated that.


----------



## richsadams

sturdydog said:


> What Channel bits are the rest of you showing with and without problems?


30746 - Series3 w/2 Comcast/Motorola "S" cable cards - No problems
30746 - TiVo HD w/1 Comcast/Motorola "M" cable card - No problems

The only time I note tiling/macroblocking/pixelization is when the SNR is 36+ which is fairly rare and seems to happen on the local NBC channel more than any other.

My results are also posted on this thread discussing many of the same issues (w/both FIOS and cableco's) with various suggestions for fixing things that have worked for some.


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## kmalone576

S3 - intermittent problems with 30746


----------



## brigont

Yes,

This is confirmed. If you are awaiting a Fios install and they have committed to giving you gear then you are ok (although I imagine they would have conducted all the installs with existing equiptment by now and everyone else on the calendar are playing the waiting game).

No HD gear for all new orders and replacements for now...

Brian



sflippen said:


> DON'T RETURN any HD equipment to Verizon! They are now "out-of-stock" On their HD STB's and DVR's. I believe they estimate mid-March before they get more in, but they already have a backlog of pending installs.
> 
> Hold on to them long enough to confirm you have any trouble, because you won't be able to go pick them up right away if you do!


----------



## brigont

Thanks richard,

But no need... Daisy-chaining three 6db attenuators did the trick. I have been reviewing all recent recordings and don't see macroblocks anymore.

Only time will tell.

Brian



richsadams said:


> As in these posts from earlier in this thread? IIRC someone posted info about a more modern version from RS which included a signal amp but actually attenuated the signal however I can't seem to find it right now.


----------



## NovaFIOS

I bought my TIVO on AMAZON but they also have a 30 day return policy as well as the TIVO service. I will keep the FIOS Moto Box and do a trial with the TIVO. While I like the TIVO software much better, I agree that pixelation on any channel especially HD would be a show-stopper for me. I just don't understand why Verizon and TiVo can't get their crap together.

Verizon is coming this morning to install the S-Cards. Since I had so much trouble with the previous DVRs they agreed to waive the installation fee. If it works I can return the moto box to the local Verizon Experience Store. If not, I will keep it and return the TIVO. 

BTW I am in Northern Virginia. I have read other posts where people say they do not have any trouble? I am starting to wonder if this is a small number of people having these problems or is it everyone.


----------



## Martin Tupper

I'm with Fios in Falls Church, VA. I had this problem my Series 3. Had to add 18dB worth of attenuation. 

Just installed two new TiVoHD's and didn't have to attenuate at all with the same ONT, cable cards, and internal cabling.


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## NovaFIOS

Ok, Verizon came and installed cable cards. The tech was very nice, (helped me hang a picture while he waited for Cards to initialize  ) 
First card took a bit, he had to call in and get some help to get the digital channels to show up, but they did come up, second card was up and running really quickly. I think, he was there for approximately an hour.

So far I have not seen any sort of pixellation at all on any channels. I did notice on HD HBO that there seems to be a flicker at the top of the screen which could be annoying but i am going to wait to see if its all the time. Other HD channels were very crisp. Lower SD channels were as good as they were with the Motorola box. 

I am treating this as a trial. I have 30 days where I can return my TIVO and stop the service if anything comes up. The tech told me my signal was around 2 (whatever that means). He said a hot signal was around 4 so I shouldnt need any attenuators. I asked for some just in case and he gave me a few and also a splitter. He also gave me his card if I have any problems within the next 3 days. 

I also kept the Motorola box so that I can either return it myself, or reinstall it if I decide TiVo aint worth it. So far, it is. I was able to listen to some of my ITunes music the other day through my Home Theater system, sounded awesome, I am going to test the Amazon Unbox thingy, and I have scheduled a few recordings online.

One thing that is a little annoying is that when changing channels sometimes, the screen goes blue for a sec and says "No Signal" then comes back. I think this happens when the video is changing formats - 720p - 1080i etc. Also, when going to the TiVo Screens it does this too. Anyone else experience this? I remember it did this on the moto box too until i adjusted to only be 720p and did the 4:3 override.

Anyway, will let you know how things go.


----------



## NovaFIOS

Ok, First Night with TIVO HD and FIOS and all I can say is "I FREAKIN LOVE IT". It is flawless, I have had absolutely no pixellation issues on any channel. I solved the channel changing flicker/delay by setting the Video Format to 720P fixed. Although my TV is capable of 1080i, I don't see a difference between 720 and 1080 and I have read some forums where it says 720 is better anyway. (unless you are at 1080P which noone broadcasts in anyway) Incidently, I had my motorola box set up this way as well.

I am now enjoying the wonderful ease and stability of TiVo. I played around with some of the online scheduling features and also ordered an Unbox video, all of which were set up and waiting for me when I got home.

With the use of TiviTunes and the universal audio thingy, I have tested playing some of my iTunes stuff which sounded great through my Audio System. (Good bye CD players). 

I am sorry others have had such issues, but I am very very happy right now. I highly recommend switching from the crappy Motorola box. :up:


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## richsadams

NovaFIOS said:


> I highly recommend switching from the crappy Motorola box. :up:


I found one of these to be preferable over the Motorola box we used to have.


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## ciucca

NovaFIOS said:


> Ok, First Night with TIVO HD and FIOS and all I can say is "I FREAKIN LOVE IT". It is flawless, I have had absolutely no pixellation issues on any channel.
> 
> I am sorry others have had such issues, but I am very very happy right now. I highly recommend switching from the crappy Motorola box. :up:


All I can say is check back in a month and let us know how it's going


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## NovaFIOS

Did you have it working only to have it not working later?  As I said in previous post, I am treating the 30 day return and cancellation as a trial period but from what I have so far experienced, I am very pleased. I kept my motorolla just in case, but i would love to throw that piece of **** under a bus.

BTW, I agree with richsadams


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## bkdtv

NovaFiOS,

Your experience mimics mine, although I did have to add a 10dB attenuator to eliminate pixelization on ~5 SD channels. I never had pixelization on the other SD and HD channels.

The TivoHD should get even better with the software update expected in March.


----------



## NotVeryWitty

bkdtv said:


> NovaFiOS,
> The TivoHD should get even better with the software update expected in March.


bkdtv,

Did I miss the announcement that makes you expect the update in March? (I did see last week's message from TivoPony that said an update was coming some time "soon", but IIRC he didn't promise a date.)


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## kmalone576

NovaFIOS said:


> I am treating this as a trial. I have 30 days where I can return my TIVO and stop the service if anything comes up.


Just an FYI - my S3 and FIOS worked flawlessly together for more than 6 months (with no attenuators, etc) before I started having pixelation problems requiring playing musical attenuators. So having no problems for 30 days doesn't guarantee it will always work...


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## sturdydog

kmalone576 said:


> Just an FYI - my S3 and FIOS worked flawlessly together for more than 6 months (with no attenuators, etc) before I started having pixelation problems requiring playing musical attenuators. So having no problems for 30 days doesn't guarantee it will always work...


My worked for many months as well then had problems for about 2 months and now works flawlessly with no attenuators while my HD unit has problems. Go figure. Personally I think it is software problems as hardware problems would be more consistent in my opinion.


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## bkdtv

NotVeryWitty said:


> bkdtv,
> 
> Did I miss the announcement that makes you expect the update in March? (I did see last week's message from TivoPony that said an update was coming some time "soon", but IIRC he didn't promise a date.)


TivoPony said they hoped to have the update out just after the Superbowl last month, but that a bit more work was required.

I think March is a safe bet, but I don't have any new information.


----------



## NovaFIOS

What is the software upgrade supposed to do? Is is supposed to make it more stable?


----------



## bkdtv

NovaFIOS said:


> What is the software upgrade supposed to do? Is is supposed to make it more stable?


Part of your monthly fee goes toward software improvement to add features / functionality.

TiVo added a revamped wishlist, eSATA external drive expansion, TTG, and MRV with the last software update. The next software update is supposed to eliminate bugs and improve performance. From the post above, we should see it very soon.


----------



## ilh

I added another 6dB attenuation to bring my THD to 25dB (16dB attenuators, 3.5dB 2-way splitter, 5.5dB 3-way splitter) in an attempt to stop errors on 836 (HD Theater, 747MHz). I'm still seeing some corrected errors, but uncorrected seem better than with only 19dB attenuation. I'm finally down to 31-32dB SNR. I must have a beast of a ONT putting out lots of signal.


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## bilbo

i added 10db of attenuation to get my snr down to 31/32. before i got to that value of attenuation, i had no picture with 20db of attenuation (black screen), and i seemed to have pixellation at 16db of attenuation and uncorrected errors were tallying up at 16db (snr was about 27/28 -- did not notice what the signal strength was). it seems to have taken the pixelation i had away (which were occuring on the hd channels only as far as i can tell).

this seems to be a pretty good setting so far -- i didn't try 13db. it sounds like from the comments that 31 or 31/32 is the sweet spot, and 32/33 is still too high. so i guess i am right on the edge, but i'm assuming it is best to use as little attenuation as necessary to correct the problem and get the snr at the "sweet spot."

my pixellation problem has been fairly recent on the hd channels only, however (about the last four weeks -- i recorded lost on both abc's last night and ended up having to watch it in 4:3 standard-def because of pixellation on abchd). i had not had much of any problems before that {at least on the hd channels -- a few channels in the 150-160 standard definition digital range started pixellating about a year ago (i.e. sci-fi; this problem lasted for about four weeks but i believe bkdtv said verizon was doing some work in my area at that time)}.


----------



## kmalone576

I'm still having pixelation problems.... With the current attenuators, I have a SNR of 34 on one channel (no pixelation) and a SNR of 27-28 on another with bad pixelation. Removing some attenuation improves it on one, but then the 34 goes up and I have pixelation on that channel. Is there anything do to about the wide variation of signal on different channels? Or do I just have to pick which channels I care more about watching on Tivo and watch the others on the Verizon STB which can somehow tune all channels properly?

On a (?maybe) related note, at the home tech store (www.hometech.com) on the page where they sell attenuators, they have something called a satellite inline IF slope equalizer. The description is as follows

"*-12dB @ 40 MHz
-5.5dB @ 1 GHz
-0.3dB @ 2.1 GHz

Coaxial cable attenuates high frequencies more than low frequencies. The TSEQ-2150 creates an attenuation loss equal and opposite to cable loss. This problem is most severe when cascading amplifiers one after the other. The signal differences are amplified to a point where the higher frequency signals are so small compared to the low frequency signals that they can no longer be received. The TSEQ-2150 provides a balanced signal level by compensating for the high frequency attenuation and allowing all signal levels on all channels to be of equal amplitude at distant locations. Therefore, the picture quality on higher channels will be maintained. "*

Does anyone know if something like this would be of any use in this situation where the signal seems different at different frequencies? I really don't know much about this stuff so this thing may be of no use but it caught my eye.


----------



## richsadams

kmalone576 said:


> I'm still having pixelation problems.... With the current attenuators, I have a SNR of 34 on one channel (no pixelation) and a SNR of 27-28 on another with bad pixelation. Removing some attenuation improves it on one, but then the 34 goes up and I have pixelation on that channel. Is there anything do to about the wide variation of signal on different channels? Or do I just have to pick which channels I care more about watching on Tivo and watch the others on the Verizon STB which can somehow tune all channels properly?
> 
> On a (?maybe) related note, at the home tech store (www.hometech.com) on the page where they sell attenuators, they have something called a satellite inline IF slope equalizer. The description is as follows
> 
> "*-12dB @ 40 MHz
> -5.5dB @ 1 GHz
> -0.3dB @ 2.1 GHz
> 
> Coaxial cable attenuates high frequencies more than low frequencies. The TSEQ-2150 creates an attenuation loss equal and opposite to cable loss. This problem is most severe when cascading amplifiers one after the other. The signal differences are amplified to a point where the higher frequency signals are so small compared to the low frequency signals that they can no longer be received. The TSEQ-2150 provides a balanced signal level by compensating for the high frequency attenuation and allowing all signal levels on all channels to be of equal amplitude at distant locations. Therefore, the picture quality on higher channels will be maintained. "*
> 
> Does anyone know if something like this would be of any use in this situation where the signal seems different at different frequencies? I really don't know much about this stuff so this thing may be of no use but it caught my eye.


*
EDIT: Per the OP's post, this device apparently does NOT work and may cause cable card problems.*

Sorry to hear that your signal and TiVo are giving you grief. By your description it's fairly obvious that your incoming Verizon signal strength has a wide disparity between various frequencies. It's apparent that their answer to most situations is to pump out the strongest signal possible. That seems to work for their box but for the moment TiVo and/or the cable cards they supply aren't able to handle it.

I think my first option would be to have Verizon come out and attempt to stabilize their signal across all frequencies as much as possible. I've no idea how or if they can do that, but if you're seeing that much difference it doesn't seem like that would be a normal situation.

Failing that the attenuator you've found _may_ be the perfect answer. I had to do a little digging, but I'm assuming that it's this one?










Although it's designed for a satellite system I don't see any reason it wouldn't work with a regular cableco signal. The question is, which frequencies are you and/or others seeing problems on. Perhaps someone with some more in-depth experience will chime in?

But for about 10 bucks w/shipping, I think it would certainly be worth a try. If it works you may be in line for the Pioneer Club Founder's Medal of Honor and all of the associated privileges! 

*
EDIT: Per the OP's post, this device apparently does NOT work and may cause cable card problems.*


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## kmalone576

yeah I doubt verizon's going to be able to stabilize the signal - especially since it works with their STB. That was the item I saw, I've ordered it because as you say its cheap and it can't hurt trying it out.


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## richsadams

kmalone576 said:


> yeah I doubt verizon's going to be able to stabilize the signal - especially since it works with their STB. That was the item I saw, I've ordered it because as you say its cheap and it can't hurt trying it out.


Thanks for keeping us updated. :up: Let us know how it turns out and TIA.


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## NovaFIOS

I am still not experiencing any problems, but my question is, does the TIVO HD work well with Cox cable? If it turns out that I end up with all these problems with FIOS as so many other are, I will switch out FIOS TV before I go back to that horrible moto box.


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## bkdtv

NovaFIOS said:


> I am still not experiencing any problems, but my question is, does the TIVO HD work well with Cox cable? If it turns out that I end up with all these problems with FIOS as so many other are, I will switch out FIOS TV before I go back to that horrible moto box.


Yes, although I believe Cox in N. VA now now delivers some of their HD channels using SDV. The TivoHD cannot currently tune SDV channels, but the USB SDV adapter (coming later this year) should address that.


----------



## NovaFIOS

Ok, so I guess I am not immune. I finally discovered some weird happening on some HD channels last night. I was watching Terminator on FOX and while there was no "Pixellation" at least what I would think pixellation looks like (the screen was crystal clear, there was a weird lag when the camera panned and their was actio scenes. Close-ups seemed to be fine, there was no audio lag, just when there was panning of the camera around the room or following a character it was like almost slow-mo. It hurt my eyes to watch. Didn't happen on the SD versions of the channels, and didnt happen on all HDs. I restarted the box and then went to bed, this morning it seemed backed to normal. I did check the cable cards while it was happening, and it showed he signal strength jumping between 93 and 100. The Uncorrected whatever was 0 and the DB was around 36-37. I don't know what any of that means other than signal strenght but I guess I will see how it looks tonight. Anyone experience anything like this?


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## richsadams

NovaFIOS said:


> Ok, so I guess I am not immune. I finally discovered some weird happening on some HD channels last night. I was watching Terminator on FOX and while there was no "Pixellation" at least what I would think pixellation looks like (the screen was crystal clear, there was a weird lag when the camera panned and their was actio scenes. Close-ups seemed to be fine, there was no audio lag, just when there was panning of the camera around the room or following a character it was like almost slow-mo. It hurt my eyes to watch. Didn't happen on the SD versions of the channels, and didnt happen on all HDs. I restarted the box and then went to bed, this morning it seemed backed to normal. I did check the cable cards while it was happening, and it showed he signal strength jumping between 93 and 100. The Uncorrected whatever was 0 and the DB was around 36-37. I don't know what any of that means other than signal strenght but I guess I will see how it looks tonight. Anyone experience anything like this?


I've seen the same thing on HD channels now and again...and like you not on all channels, etc. If I rewind and play it again, it's still there. It's fairly rare though so I've attributed it to the broadcast itself. Our local NBC affiliate had all sorts of issues when they were converting everything over to HD. There were constant video and audio problems on their HD broadcast (but not on SD). I record the NBC Nightly News in HD and it was fairly painful to watch and listen to for a while. Now that they're done everything is just about perfect though.

I happened to be in Costco the other day and noticed that sort of behavior as well as sporadic pixelization on all of their display HD TV's. I asked one of the floor people about it and he said that he thought it was the a problem with the amp/distributor setup they had. I've seen the same thing in our local Circuit City now and then. HD PQ seems to be an issue no matter what kind of equipment is involved.


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## joysbox

I may be in the same boat. Never had any issues until two weeks ago. I was checking the threads and it seems like the signal was too hot, but I didn't think my tivo should be rebooting every ten minutes or so. The replacement tivo seems to be working fine - so wish us luck.


----------



## richsadams

joysbox said:


> I may be in the same boat. Never had any issues until two weeks ago. I was checking the threads and it seems like the signal was too hot, but I didn't think my tivo should be rebooting every ten minutes or so. The replacement tivo seems to be working fine - so wish us luck.


Luck :up:


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## brigont

Rich,

How did you find this thing. You need to get out more 

Brian

P.S. - A few weeks into fios with 22 pounds of attentuation on the tivo and all appears to be working well. Thanks again for all the help.



richsadams said:


> Sorry to hear that your signal and TiVo are giving you grief. By your description it's fairly obvious that your incoming Verizon signal strength has a wide disparity between various frequencies. It's apparent that their answer to most situations is to pump out the strongest signal possible. That seems to work for their box but for the moment TiVo and/or the cable cards they supply aren't able to handle it.
> 
> I think my first option would be to have Verizon come out and attempt to stabilize their signal across all frequencies as much as possible. I've no idea how or if they can do that, but if you're seeing that much difference it doesn't seem like that would be a normal situation.
> 
> Failing that the attenuator you've found _may_ be the perfect answer. I had to do a little digging, but I'm assuming that it's this one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although it's designed for a satellite system I don't see any reason it wouldn't work with a regular cableco signal. The question is, which frequencies are you and/or others seeing problems on. Perhaps someone with some more in-depth experience will chime in?
> 
> But for about 10 bucks w/shipping, I think it would certainly be worth a try. If it works you may be in line for the Pioneer Club Founder's Medal of Honor and all of the associated privileges!


----------



## NovaFIOS

Ok so its getting close to the point where I will be tied to TIVO as my 30 day moneyback guarantee is going to expire next week. Other than the 1 evening where there was a few HD channels that seemed to lag, I have had 0 problems and I love my TIVO so much I think you would have to pry it from my dead cold hands...  I am hoping my experience sticks as I am going to hand back my Motorolla box that has been staring at me lifeless under the TIVO since I switched. I do not miss On Demand that much and have downloaded some UnBox videos which were cool, although allegedly On Demand will be pushing out HD content and UnBox does not. Does anyone know when UnBox will if ever have HD content? I did a trial on Rhapsody and it kicked A**, such great digital quality pumped through my sound system. Too bad I already have so much ITunes stuff, but I have also downlowed some stuff to enable me to play ITunes stuff through TIVO.. Very cool. Anyway, for anyone who is still on the fence, I love it....


----------



## richsadams

brigont said:


> Rich,
> 
> How did you find this thing. You need to get out more
> 
> Brian
> 
> P.S. - A few weeks into fios with 22 pounds of attentuation on the tivo and all appears to be working well. Thanks again for all the help.


Ha, can't blame me for that one.  That little device was found by another member (on this post). I'm still waiting to hear if it worked or not.


----------



## psuzebra

richsadams said:


> Ha, can't blame me for that one.  That little device was found by another member (on this post). I'm still waiting to hear if it worked or not.


I'm curious to hear if kmalone576 had any luck with that gadget too.

I've been having all sorts of trouble trying to find a good medium amount of attenuation so that I can get all of the HD channels w/o pixelation.

6db fixes pixelation on ESPN but still get pixelation on HDNet and DSCHD.
9db fixed pixelation on ESPN and DSCHD but still get pixelation on HDNet.
12db fixes pixelation on ESPN, DSCHD, and HDNet, but now the signal isn't strong enough on Food and HGTV and the TiVo can't tune them in.

Ugh.


----------



## vinsuz

First I want to say thanks to all of you who have taken the time to post your experiences and opinions. I had FiOS installed this past Monday; my first THD install went flawlessly, and although the second THD was a little more problematic (four Fiber Solutions CRSs and four CableCards over four hours), everything is working beautifully! I am still stunned at the difference in the picture quality compared to Comcast -- even my wife noticed it which is saying something!

Unfortunately, I sat down to watch a basketball game tonight on ESPN HD and experienced the dreaded macroblocking (or pixelization) on both THDs. I was able to convince the FiOS CSR to schedule a visit, and now that I came across this thread I feel that I'm better prepared for the service call.

I plan to print AbMagFab's and bkdtv's posts and give them to the tech so hopefully they'll be better prepared for the next TiVo install -- maybe that'll get me some good karma!!

I'll check back and post my experiences; hopefully it'll be good news!


----------



## kmalone576

So the "inline slope equalizer" thing didn't work - It seemed to have the same affect as attenuation (affected all channels equally)... but then when I took it off my cable cards ceased to work! I don't know if it is unlucky coincidence or somehow the device fried or reset my cable cards - they won't get any channels and say "not tuned, wrong card state" on the diagnostic screen. Whether it was related or not I don't know, but it seems awfully suspicious. So anyway bottom line is it didn't help with pixelation and may have crashed my cable cards. Sometimes I guess you have to take one for the team.... Verizon guy is on his way out today.


----------



## richsadams

kmalone576 said:


> So the "inline slope equalizer" thing didn't work - It seemed to have the same affect as attenuation (affected all channels equally)... but then when I took it off my cable cards ceased to work! I don't know if it is unlucky coincidence or somehow the device fried or reset my cable cards - they won't get any channels and say "not tuned, wrong card state" on the diagnostic screen. Whether it was related or not I don't know, but it seems awfully suspicious. So anyway bottom line is it didn't help with pixelation and may have crashed my cable cards. Sometimes I guess you have to take one for the team.... Verizon guy is on his way out today.


Sorry to hear that, but thanks very much for the follow up. :up:

I'll add a note to my post to steer clear of them!


----------



## sturdydog

Ok, I may have had a revelation today! Could this problem be caused by RF noise? Let me explain and give some water holding ability to my theory. I have two TiVos, and HD and a Series 3. The Series 3 worked perfect until one day it didnt. Had Verizon out checked everything and bla bla to no avail. I was able to get things working ok with some attenuation though. Well later I found it worked flawlessly again with NO attenuation. Couldnt even begin to explain it but I thought what the hey Ill take it. Well then I added an HD unit and had problems from the get go even though the Series 3 continued to work like a champ. 

Well tonight I sat with a pile of attenuators futzing with the HD unit and a light bulb went off. What had changed with the Series 3 from when it worked to didnt and did again? Well nothing except its location. Everything was in a temporary pile of equipment for many months and during that period was re-organized once or twice. Currently all my gear is housed in an equipment rack, where the Series 3 has always worked flawlessly, and when I added the TiVo HD I pulled out the Verizon DVR and stuck the HD in its place, where it never worked. Well when the bulb went off I pulled it out of the rack and positioned it as far away as I could with the cables that are in place and wallah (sp?) or at least almost. Now I have one tuner that works perfect with no attenuation and the other is better but still needs a little help.
So this begs the question, could this be entirely an issue of RF noise and attenuation is only helping to reduce the noise? Could the cover be pulled and some shielding added to the tuner to help the noise?

What are everybodys thoughts?


----------



## richsadams

sturdydog said:


> Ok, I may have had a revelation today! Could this problem be caused by RF noise? Let me explain and give some water holding ability to my theory. I have two TiVos, and HD and a Series 3. The Series 3 worked perfect until one day it didnt. Had Verizon out checked everything and bla bla to no avail. I was able to get things working ok with some attenuation though. Well later I found it worked flawlessly again with NO attenuation. Couldnt even begin to explain it but I thought what the hey Ill take it. Well then I added an HD unit and had problems from the get go even though the Series 3 continued to work like a champ.
> 
> Well tonight I sat with a pile of attenuators futzing with the HD unit and a light bulb went off. What had changed with the Series 3 from when it worked to didnt and did again? Well nothing except its location. Everything was in a temporary pile of equipment for many months and during that period was re-organized once or twice. Currently all my gear is housed in an equipment rack, where the Series 3 has always worked flawlessly, and when I added the TiVo HD I pulled out the Verizon DVR and stuck the HD in its place, where it never worked. Well when the bulb went off I pulled it out of the rack and positioned it as far away as I could with the cables that are in place and wallah (sp?) or at least almost. Now I have one tuner that works perfect with no attenuation and the other is better but still needs a little help.
> So this begs the question, could this be entirely an issue of RF noise and attenuation is only helping to reduce the noise? Could the cover be pulled and some shielding added to the tuner to help the noise?
> 
> What are everybodys thoughts?


Interesting theory. I'm not sure about RF noise, but an EMF and EMI has been known to cause problems for a number of folks with TiVo eSATA expansion drives when they place them too closely to a high power source such as a receiver or UPS or near a strong magnetic field such as a sub woofer. Running coax in line with power cables can cause PQ issues as well. (Power cables should never be bundled with any other cables and if they have to cross it should be at 90 degree angles.)

It would be interesting to find out if placing a TiVo that's experiencing trouble in another location, preferably as far away from where it's currently located, makes any difference.


----------



## Marc

I just recently fixed up my pixelation problem by adding 11 dB of attenuation to my TiVo HD. I had started noticing the pixelation showing up, but only on my local SD channels. Other channels were just fine.

What's kind of strange is that it had been working great for three months; the pixelation only started a couple of weeks ago. I don't know what changed during that time, but I finally got too annoyed with the pixelation and broke out the stash of attenuators that the FiOS installer had left me. I was surprised that I needed to go up to double-digit attenuation to bring the level down.

I got the feeling that the SNR value on the TiVo HD CableCARD diagnostic screen maxes out around 36 dB because the first 8 dB that I put on didn't even change that number. It wasn't until I got the attenuation up to 11 dB that the SNR number dropped down to 34 dB.


----------



## rifleman69

Marc said:


> I just recently fixed up my pixelation problem by adding 11 dB of attenuation to my TiVo HD. I had started noticing the pixelation showing up, but only on my local SD channels. Other channels were just fine.
> 
> What's kind of strange is that it had been working great for three months; the pixelation only started a couple of weeks ago. I don't know what changed during that time, but I finally got too annoyed with the pixelation and broke out the stash of attenuators that the FiOS installer had left me. I was surprised that I needed to go up to double-digit attenuation to bring the level down.
> 
> I got the feeling that the SNR value on the TiVo HD CableCARD diagnostic screen maxes out around 36 dB because the first 8 dB that I put on didn't even change that number. It wasn't until I got the attenuation up to 11 dB that the SNR number dropped down to 34 dB.


Nope, I've had the SNR # at 37 or 38 originally.


----------



## mona6356

I now have Directv with TIVO and am thinking of consolidating with Verizon Fios for TV, Internet and Home phone.The price would be about the same as with the individual services but internet will be much faster (vs DSL), and unlimited LD with phone. My question though, is Fios Tivo as good as, better than, or worse than Directv Tivo. I'm concerned with moving around the screens, setting up recordings, Season Passes, and obviously, the quality and reliability of the picture. Should I switch to Fios and why? Or should I stay?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## TheBar1

mona6356 said:


> I now have Directv with TIVO and am thinking of consolidating with Verizon Fios for TV, Internet and Home phone.The price would be about the same as with the individual services but internet will be much faster (vs DSL), and unlimited LD with phone. My question though, is Fios Tivo as good as, better than, or worse than Directv Tivo. I'm concerned with moving around the screens, setting up recordings, Season Passes, and obviously, the quality and reliability of the picture. Should I switch to Fios and why? Or should I stay?
> 
> Any information would be greatly appreciated.


I made the switch from DirecTV to FiOS in August. The SD picture quality on Fios is definitely better (much less compression on the signal, I suspect). I originally had Verizon's DVR (not TiVo) when I switched, but I finally convinced the wife to go back to TiVo in February. We now have a TiVo HD, and I am really happy to be back  When I was with DirecTV, I had both S1 and S2 TiVos for about 6 years.


----------



## threshar

for the record, I had verizon out here a while ago (oh, probably a month or two at this point!) and they tried to diagnose the problem - they then added some attenuation lovin before the tivo and things have been rock solid since. I'm unsure how much because I wasn't here when they were and I never think to check. 

so it does seem the signal strength screws with mr. tivo.


----------



## kmalone576

So the last verizon tech I spoke with over the weekend confirmed what I have wondered about for a while. Verizon has been changing their signal strength on occasion which would explain why you can have a perfectly working set up all of the sudden become problematic. He said their signal had gotten hotter in my area (MD) in late 2007 which was causing a lot of problems for people near the home office. This was about the time I had started having pixelation problems. At that time the tech came out, measured my signal (<+20) and attenuated it fixing (mostly) my picture. That particular tech had no knowledge of any change in signal. The tech who came out over the weekend measured my same signal and found it to be -8db (before attenuation) and thought it was too low (at least for their box) and removed some attenuation that was on the line close to the ONT. He said that because they were getting so many calls about errors from a too strong signal and having to put so much attenuation on most set ups that Verizon had recently bumped their signal down by a few decibels. So now I had to remove some of my attenuators on the Tivo. I currently only have a 6db attenuator on my box with an SNR around 35 on most channels with great picture, no RS errors (corrected or uncorrected). So although the Fios/S3 combo is not without issue, I'm glad to finally have a reason why I can have no problems for so long and then all of the sudden have pixelation without changing my set up. I know some have said that the signal strength is determined by the ONT, but there most be some influence that the fiber signal coming in plays in determining how strong the signal ends up at your STB.


----------



## bigguy126

Just had FIOS installed yesterday. Got same story as kmalone576. Tech told me that Fios was too hot and they have lowered it in my area (Pittsburgh) to be +12 db. My installation has 2 splitters before Tivo. Tech did a line test and found it perfect at the tivo (+4??). Have not noticed any pixellation yet.

Picture quality MUCH better than comcast. Esp on analog chanells.


----------



## ciucca

kmalone576 said:


> So the last verizon tech I spoke with over the weekend confirmed what I have wondered about for a while. Verizon has been changing their signal strength on occasion which would explain why you can have a perfectly working set up all of the sudden become problematic. He said their signal had gotten hotter in my area (MD) in late 2007 which was causing a lot of problems for people near the home office. This was about the time I had started having pixelation problems. At that time the tech came out, measured my signal (<+20) and attenuated it fixing (mostly) my picture. That particular tech had no knowledge of any change in signal. The tech who came out over the weekend measured my same signal and found it to be -8db (before attenuation) and thought it was too low (at least for their box) and removed some attenuation that was on the line close to the ONT. He said that because they were getting so many calls about errors from a too strong signal and having to put so much attenuation on most set ups that Verizon had recently bumped their signal down by a few decibels. So now I had to remove some of my attenuators on the Tivo. I currently only have a 6db attenuator on my box with an SNR around 35 on most channels with great picture, no RS errors (corrected or uncorrected). So although the Fios/S3 combo is not without issue, I'm glad to finally have a reason why I can have no problems for so long and then all of the sudden have pixelation without changing my set up. I know some have said that the signal strength is determined by the ONT, but there most be some influence that the fiber signal coming in plays in determining how strong the signal ends up at your STB.


I work for Verizon and this is Bull Crap. We do not change our signal. The only thing left to blame is the Tivo box. I do own a TIVOHD  even though I work for Verizon.:


----------



## rifleman69

ciucca said:


> I work for Verizon and this is Bull Crap. We do not change our signal. The only thing left to blame is the Tivo box. I do own a TIVOHD  even though I work for Verizon.:


Wanna bet?


----------



## kmalone576

ciucca said:


> I work for Verizon and this is Bull Crap. We do not change our signal. The only thing left to blame is the Tivo box. I do own a TIVOHD  even though I work for Verizon.:


Well it seemed like a good explanation to me. So you're telling me that my Tivo has twice suddenly become unable to tune Verizon's never changing signal requiring me to change the level of attenuation to it all other things being equal? I'm not defending the S3 - it definitely has issues, but a signal change makes a lot of sense in what I and others have experienced. And in dealing with multiple different verizon CSR's and techs there is a wide variety of knowledge and understanding of the product, so I'm not surprised some Verizon employees have different information than others.


----------



## richsadams

I can't say one way or another about Verizon changing or not changing their signal strength, but cableco's have been altering their signal strength for years depending on the localized requirements. I don't know why Verizon would handle things any differently. 

I agree with kmalone576 that the Verizon tech's explanation makes sense based not only on his but many other's experiences here. However again, can't argue the issue with regard to what Verizon may or may not do either way.


----------



## kas25

I just got a package of different stregth attenuators and have started experimenting with different ones. Is it recommended to start with the larger or smaller numbers? Will I lose any quality? If so, more or less with larger or smaller numbers? Thanks.


----------



## hmm52

I've had 3 Sony cablecard devices for 29 months, 1 Tv & 2 DVRs; and a c.c Toshiba Tv for 16 months. The last 15 months with FiOS. First 8 of those months were completely free of tiling/macroblocking/pixelation. Tiling first seen on Toshiba in August - local HDs. Worst stretch was in November - Toshiba pixelated horrifically on over 50% of all SDs & HDs; small macroblocks also appeared through 3 Sony tuners every 30 - 60 seconds on a few channels. After ripping apart house & swapping out much equipment to no avail, Verizon "Big Boss" passed matter on to next level. Tiling became a non-issue in next 24 hours. He called to say that problem had been fixed in nearby central office. Since then Toshiba has tiled occasionally on local HDs. By design, the Sonys will shut off feed if signal is too hot. I've yet to see that happen with either FiOS or Comcast. No macroblocks observed through them since 11/07 (1 very brief exception).

I've had an S3 for 7 weeks. First 2 weeks - it tiled on local HDs (507-525MHz) & 5 others on 2 frequencies; Toshiba tiled on locals to lesser extent. Attenuation beyond that of VZ 5way splitter is not an option currently. While it can clear the locals, quite a few SDs & HDs are knocked out or pixelated with just an 8db attenuator added. Antenna channel chosen when tiling appears in locals. Fine for that. With addition of 2nd cablecard after 1st 2 weeks, I've seen significantly worse performance on tuner 0. It has no tune or heavy pixelation on all channels 711-777MHz, inconsistent tuning 639-645MHz, & the same occasional difficulties as tuner 1 on locals. No problems with either tuner below 507 or above 777MHz. Pixelation on Toshiba & tuner 1 has been much less in last 5 weeks. Tuner 1 usually shows 0&0 for errors on channels that tuner 0 has off the chart errors - upper frequencies.

Exchange S3 was requested last week. If it also has problems, especially beyond the locals, I'll see what remedy Verizon can provide; and continue to remind TiVo Inc. of its product's weaknesses. I wrote Toshiba off long ago.


Rich --- Did you hear about that unfortunate woman's run in with a sting ray in the Keys? How long are the odds against that ever happening? I doubt I'll ever be able to get my wife out for a boat dive again. (It was never easy.)


----------



## richsadams

kas25 said:


> I just got a package of different stregth attenuators and have started experimenting with different ones. Is it recommended to start with the larger or smaller numbers? Will I lose any quality? If so, more or less with larger or smaller numbers? Thanks.


Start small and work your way up. Each attenuation will reduce signal strength. Eventually you'll reduce the signal to the point that it will be lost on some or all channels. Hopefully you'll find a "sweet spot" before that.


----------



## richsadams

hmm52 said:


> Rich --- Did you hear about that unfortunate woman's run in with a sting ray in the Keys? How long are the odds against that ever happening? I doubt I'll ever be able to get my wife out for a boat dive again. (It was never easy.)


I saw that news story...beautiful spotted eagle ray jumped out of the water and into the boat, knocking her over along the way; banged her head on the deck and died.  (Sad that they let the ray die.) I've read other stories about rays clearing the water like dolphins...weird. The odds of that happening to anyone are probably much smaller than being hit by lightning..._much _smaller I would think. Freak of nature I suppose.

We had the opportunity to swim w/mantas in Hawaii a while back...awesome experience! :up: Here are a couple of pics of the wife and I with a few of the friendly little guys...

http://i31.tinypic.com/2cf3yvp.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/10hvh1i.jpg

Okay...back OT.


----------



## hmm52

Much, much, much smaller chance than being hit by lightening. Sometimes people aren't open to the laws of probability. It's just the deep, dark, mysterious ocean - not their element. You either have the mentality of a diver or you don't; though my wife and I witnessed large school of graceful eagle rays gliding just overhead while hunkering down behind reef to stay out of strong current. - Windward side of Grand Cayman in very rough conditions. Except for us, everyone had gone with the current. You can imagine the disaster scene at surface 45 minutes later. What a contrast of images in one dive!

Off the old airport, Big Island, right? I took my ex-girlfriend's son there to get certified. That night dive was his first after certification. 3 boat loads of Cousteau people also came to see the mantas. They acted like they were schoolchildren seeing the circus for the first time. Mantas enthusiastic also. Good memories..........


Gotta go


,


----------



## richsadams

hmm52 said:


> Off the old airport, Big Island, right?


That's the place. The best used to be off shore at the old Kona Surf Hotel, but since their lights no longer shine in the water, the mantas have moved on. Still a great experience! :up:

Travel safe.


----------



## webin

I'm going to post a more in-depth report in the FioS thread, but I thought I'd briefly mention my experience with macroblocking on the CC install I had this afternoon.

After getting the CC's functional, my installer flipped through various channels to make sure it was all working. We found macroblocking, but ONLY on channel 803, which is CW. It could have been on more, but none we saw. I mentioned the signal could be "too hot" as I've seen around the forums, and he pulled an attenuator from his pocket (not sure what size) and tried it, but didn't make a difference. Eventually, he decided to swap out my OTN box, upgrading me from "806 to 812". Essentially, my Internet is now MoCa instead of Ethernet. It fixed the macroblocking on that channel, and I haven't seen any picture quality issues on any channel in the 2 hours I've been playing with it. I also notice that my SNR is 37 or 38 on many channels. For the time being, it seems to be working nicely, so let's hope it stays that way.

Edit: Also, I'm getting +3dB signal strength from the wall, and the installer told me they are putting out +11dB at the central office (where ever that is), and hope to bump it up to +18dB (for reasons I can't remember).


----------



## richsadams

webin said:


> I'm going to post a more in-depth report in the FioS thread, but I thought I'd briefly mention my experience with macroblocking on the CC install I had this afternoon.
> 
> After getting the CC's functional, my installer flipped through various channels to make sure it was all working. We found macroblocking, but ONLY on channel 803, which is CW. It could have been on more, but none we saw. I mentioned the signal could be "too hot" as I've seen around the forums, and he pulled an attenuator from his pocket (not sure what size) and tried it, but didn't make a difference. Eventually, he decided to swap out my OTN box, upgrading me from "806 to 812". Essentially, my Internet is now MoCa instead of Ethernet. It fixed the macroblocking on that channel, and I haven't seen any picture quality issues on any channel in the 2 hours I've been playing with it. I also notice that my SNR is 37 or 38 on many channels. For the time being, it seems to be working nicely, so let's hope it stays that way.
> 
> Edit: Also, I'm getting +3dB signal strength from the wall, and the installer told me they are putting out +11dB at the central office (where ever that is), and hope to bump it up to +18dB (for reasons I can't remember).


Good info. Thanks for posting. :up:


----------



## hmm52

webin said:


> I'm going to post a more in-depth report in the FioS thread, but I thought I'd briefly mention my experience with macroblocking on the CC install I had this afternoon.
> 
> After getting the CC's functional, my installer flipped through various channels to make sure it was all working. We found macroblocking, but ONLY on channel 803, which is CW. It could have been on more, but none we saw. I mentioned the signal could be "too hot" as I've seen around the forums, and he pulled an attenuator from his pocket (not sure what size) and tried it, but didn't make a difference. Eventually, he decided to swap out my OTN box, upgrading me from "806 to 812".


Perhaps you could verify with installer that it's a Motorola ONT. They usually call back or leave a card. A number of techs have bemoaned the fact that they couldn't upgrade my ONT further - & from Tel Labs to Motorola. Incompatilbility with old equipment at my central office. Motorolas are supposedly better at dealing with line errors. My ONT is a 612 as I recall.


----------



## vinsuz

I had the Verizon tech out to look at my HD boxes. His meter showed a "perfect signal" (according to him); 0db and full signal strength. We tried several combinations of attenuators to no avail -- they didn't seem to improve the affected channels and made unaffected channels worse. 

Interestingly, before the tech arrived, some of the channels experiencing problems cleared up on their own, but the problem returned on those same channels after the tech disconnected and reconnected the coax. And after a couple of days the channels cleared up again. As it stands now, it seems the affected channels have moved and reduced in number (as far as I can tell as it's hard to keep up with 300+ channels).

None of my HD channels seem affected anymore (at least for now), so I'm just going to live with the situation. I did call Verizon's cancellation department even though I really didn't want to cancel the service, and asked for a "free" HD set-top box so that when I encounter an affected channel I can switch TV inputs to watch the set-top box. Not only did they agree, they also gave me the movie package for free for the rest of the year AND $100 off my first bill!

I really don't know what to think, but my feeling is that the problem has less to do with the actual signal and is an issue with the CableCards and/or the TiVo tuners. But that's just my gut talking.


----------



## holee

As a soon to be HD TiVo user with Verizon FiOS, you guys are doing an amazing job of making me panick. Potentially annoying to unusable service. Not having happy thoughts.


----------



## webin

Keep in mind we aren't posting about all the beautiful channels we are seeing (well, some of us are). The pixelation stuff is only on a few channels, and most people aren't seeing it. I wouldn't recommend worrying until (if) you actually see if on your setup.

Be sure to let us know how your install goes tomorrow (or whenever it comes).


----------



## richsadams

holee said:


> As a soon to be HD TiVo user with Verizon FiOS, you guys are doing an amazing job of making me panick. Potentially annoying to unusable service. Not having happy thoughts.


I have to admit that I'm a little concerned as well. We currently have Comcast, but Verizon is spray painting various colored stripes all over our streets and driveways in preparation for FIOS in our neighborhood. I was initially jumping for joy, but I'm a little worried now.

Currently everything we have is almost perfect, but I understand that Comcast is beginning to compress their HD even more now (to be able to brag about having more HD channels at the cost of PQ) and I'd really love to have the huge "pipe" that FIOS offers for broadband. But all of the attenuation and macroblocking talk is putty a big wet blanket on things.

Webin, you say you're "near Portland". Where exactly and how would you rate your overall experience w/Verizon and FIOS? TIA!


----------



## gamo62

vinsuz said:


> I had the Verizon tech out to look at my HD boxes. His meter showed a "perfect signal" (according to him); 0db and full signal strength. We tried several combinations of attenuators to no avail -- they didn't seem to improve the affected channels and made unaffected channels worse.
> 
> Interestingly, before the tech arrived, some of the channels experiencing problems cleared up on their own, but the problem returned on those same channels after the tech disconnected and reconnected the coax. And after a couple of days the channels cleared up again. As it stands now, it seems the affected channels have moved and reduced in number (as far as I can tell as it's hard to keep up with 300+ channels).
> 
> None of my HD channels seem affected anymore (at least for now), so I'm just going to live with the situation. I did call Verizon's cancellation department even though I really didn't want to cancel the service, and asked for a "free" HD set-top box so that when I encounter an affected channel I can switch TV inputs to watch the set-top box. Not only did they agree, they also gave me the movie package for free for the rest of the year AND $100 off my first bill!
> 
> I really don't know what to think, but my feeling is that the problem has less to do with the actual signal and is an issue with the CableCards and/or the TiVo tuners. But that's just my gut talking.


$100 off your first bill! How much IS your bill?


----------



## rifleman69

richsadams said:


> I have to admit that I'm a little concerned as well. We currently have Comcast, but Verizon is spray painting various colored stripes all over our streets and driveways in preparation for FIOS in our neighborhood. I was initially jumping for joy, but I'm a little worried now.
> 
> Currently everything we have is almost perfect, but I understand that Comcast is beginning to compress their HD even more now (to be able to brag about having more HD channels at the cost of PQ) and I'd really love to have the huge "pipe" that FIOS offers for broadband. But all of the attenuation and macroblocking talk is putty a big wet blanket on things.
> 
> Webin, you say you're "near Portland". Where exactly and how would you rate your overall experience w/Verizon and FIOS? TIA!


FiOS is head and shoulders above Comcast and DirecTV (IMO) that it's not even funny. You will notice the picture quality difference in both HD and SD broadcasts. Didn't know that L.O. was finally getting FiOS, that's great news!


----------



## richsadams

rifleman69 said:


> FiOS is head and shoulders above Comcast and DirecTV (IMO) that it's not even funny. You will notice the picture quality difference in both HD and SD broadcasts. Didn't know that L.O. was finally getting FiOS, that's great news!


Good to hear and I think we'll take the leap when it's available. I know most of the people that find their way here have a problem and only account for a very small percentage of the TiVo/FIOS population...but some of the stories are real nightmares and I can sympathize with their frustration. People that are happy with everything rarely end up posting on forums like this.

Not sure when it'll be ready at our house, but our streets sure look like a graffiti artist has been busy!


----------



## webin

richsadams said:


> Webin, you say you're "near Portland". Where exactly and how would you rate your overall experience w/Verizon and FIOS? TIA!


I wrote much more than I expected, and it'd be better in the Verizon thread, so I'll answer there.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6134538#post6134538


----------



## richsadams

webin said:


> I wrote much more than I expected, and it'd be better in the Verizon thread, so I'll answer there.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6134538#post6134538


Excellent! Thanks very much! :up:


----------



## sweh

Colour (I'm English) me confused.

I thought the ONT converted from incoming optic to coax. So how can the strength of the signal change? I'm really confused.

Anyway, to my real problem.

At this moment I have tuner 0 tuned to 170 (429Mhz; Comedy central) and the signal strength is changing from 100 to 93 to 87 to 61 to 43 (eep; just hit zero) and back to 100. SNR is bouncing from 37db down to 33db and back. It has 28,000 RS uncorrected (increasing by 100 or so every second) and 620,000 RS corrected (increasing by 1000 every second).

But at the same time tuner 1 is tuned to 825 (717Mhz; TNT HD) and is a rock solid signal strength 100 and with SNR bouncing between 36 and 37dB with an (unchanging) 255 uncorrected errors over the course of 1.2 hours.

Now for an experiment, I just changed tuner 0 to 169 (627Mhz; BBC America) and am now also getting solid 100 with SNR 36/37. So I don't _think_ it's a cable card issue.

Could this be Verizon being bad on Comedy Central? Or could it be the signal is "too hot" and needs attenuating? Some of my symptoms appear to match the too hot side (high SNR, RS uncorrected increasing) but why does this only impact some channels, and why does the signal strength keep changing?


----------



## Marc

sweh said:


> At this moment I have tuner 0 tuned to 170 (429Mhz; Comedy central) and the signal strength is changing from 100 to 93 to 87 to 61 to 43 (eep; just hit zero) and back to 100. SNR is bouncing from 37db down to 33db and back. It has 28,000 RS uncorrected (increasing by 100 or so every second) and 620,000 RS corrected (increasing by 1000 every second).


This is exactly the symptom of a "too hot" signal coming in to the TiVo.

I had the same problem. I think that the displayed SNR value caps out at a maximum value, and the actual value is higher.

I ended up adding 11 dB of attenuation before my SNR finally showed a drop, but even then it was just 2 or 3 dB on the screen. At that point, my error rate finally stopped increasing and stabilized.

I think that the signal strength affects certain frequency rather than others, so you'd see the problem on some channels but not others.


----------



## webin

Update on my setup: I initially reported that I was experiencing macroblocking on CW (in HD), but that swapping the ONT fixed it. As time has gone on, I've encountered macroblocking on several channels, as least CW and Fox (both HD). I haven't really had time to diagnose the problem and figure out the full range of channels I'm getting it on, but I'm sure it's the same hot signal problem. When I finally get some time off (dern deadlines), I'm going to get some attenuators and knock the signal down.


----------



## sweh

Marc said:


> This is exactly the symptom of a "too hot" signal coming in to the TiVo.


Ok, thanks. I've ordered a set of attenuators and will play with them when they arrive. 10:30pm on Wednesday on Comedy Central seems a good time for problems.


----------



## rcr2

I just got FiOS and (knock on wood) have had no problems. Installer said the signal was coming in very hot, too, so I was worried, but everything seems to be running a-ok.


----------



## rashid11

I had to add 8 + 8 + 3 + 3 = 22 Db of attenuation to drop the SNR to 33 Db !!!
These 4 attenuators was what FIOS guy gave me when he did the install. I guess
I have to spring for an extra one or see if local RatShack has the variable attenuator.

The fact my Tivo HD was showing 38 Db originally prolly means that it is the max
value it will display (some folx reported seeing 39 Db).

About attenuators reducing the noise along with the signal - they do reduce incoming noise, but the "native" thermal noise of Tivo's own RF stages is not affected and stays constant (within reasonable temp range).

About macroblocking - even with my extremely hot signal, most channels seemed to be OK. But, I _did_ see totally random pixelization/macroblocking on different channels. Hopefully it is gone now ... I'd still like to get down to the "golden" 31 Db SNR number


----------



## sweh

Stage 1 test; 1 put in a 20db attenuator and the system wouldn't tune into anything at all. It could be a bad attenuator, or it could just have degraded the signal too much. 

So I put a 10db in. Now on Comedy Central the signal strength bounces between 68 and 75, and the SNR bounces between 32 and 33dB. A little high compared to what others have written, but in the past 12 hours there have been zero Uncorrected errors on that channel. RS Corrected goes up occaisionally (4180 in 12 hours). 

(Annoying design; the cable input is very close to the eSATA connector, and wobbling that cable caused the box to reboot; the TiVo eSATA port is a little too loose).

Hopefully this has solved my problems and I won't need to add in a second attenuator.


----------



## richsadams

sweh said:


> (Annoying design; the cable input is very close to the eSATA connector, and wobbling that cable caused the box to reboot; the TiVo eSATA port is a little too loose).


 It's more likely that the cable's connector is the culprit. You might want to replace it with the recommended SIIG Serial ATA external cable...less than $10. Other cable recommendations (Section III, #26)


----------



## shaggy2002

Last night I noticed that one of my cable cards was no longer working in FIOS. I attemted to run Diags and it stayed at please wait forever. I had to hard boot the tivo and when it came back both cards were working again and I thought everything was good until I started flipping between Showtime, Starz and they all were pixalating every 10-15 seconds. ON local channels HD and SD I experience no pixelation. I never had a problem before with my SNR prior to the card quit working. It is doing this on both cards as well. Is there anything I can check to determine what my problem may be? or do I need to call FIOS?


----------



## rudolpht

richsadams said:


> Thanks for the update and welcome to the forum. :up:
> 
> I don't have any real macroblocking problems, but I have one of these and wondered if it is the same thing you're using JIC.


We'll I have one of these (at about 60% between min & max) plus a 6 DB pad.

I am truthfully amazed at the change (HBO HD, BBCA, 5starmax were my bad channels). I actually just bought an HD Tivo to replace a S3 because my other TivoHD was showing stability until a few recent recordings. I need to get more Pads in and then I should be set (fixing the S3 and my other existing TivoHD) and the new replacement HD Tivo gets returned unopened. I'm getting signal that bounces between 68 and 72 but steady at 31 SNR. I'll fix up the existing HD Tivo also (unless you thin it's OK to attenuate before the splitter) (2 Tivos (HD & S3) , data, and 1 Fios HD DVR box)

Side item: I was having lots of issues with 8.3 and I'm wondering now (after I replaced the HD) if I shouldn't go back to my old one that had the nightly reboots (or toss it into an enclosure and try to make it a second drive married to my already larger drive in the S3).

THANKS!!!!


----------



## webin

I have been using a 10db attenuator to help with my pixelation. I still get minor pixelation on some channels... notably FoxHD, and will also get signal drop out from time to time, where sound and video cut out for a few seconds (on any channel, even FoxHD). I chalk it up to bouncy signal strength, and was planning to try 8db at some point.

Anyways, onto my question. I woke up this morning and was getting the grey screen with a "can't find signal" message. My cable cards were showing signal strengths of 45 and "-". I took the 10db attenuator out of the line, and the video signal returned (though I didn't check strength).

The question: Have cable attenuators been known to go bad? It seems like a fairly simple piece of hardware, so I wouldn't expect much failure, especially after months of use. I think it could also be a suddenly weaker signal from Verizon, but haven't had time yet to look into the issue.


----------



## Thos19

I've had FiosTV since March and experienced pixelation for the first time last night. Thanks to this thread, I was prepared with attenuators, and fixed the problem...for now.

What is bugging me is this: Why did I not have a problem for the first few months? It seems like it should be either my signal is either too hot, or not. It shouldn't suddenly manifest itself out of the blue. I doubt that Fios suddently decided to boost my signal yesterday and cause the problem. If it is the tuner section in my Series 3 being inadequate to the task, is it a function or the circuitry "wearing out" over time from receiving a hot signal, and the eventual solution will have to be a new tuner board? Or perhaps the next generation of Tivo will be the solution as it may or may not have a better built tuner section?

Very strange...

Thos.


----------



## richsadams

When everything has been fine for a time and then things go south my guess is that the FIOS signal is being adjusted by Verizon and has nothing to do with the end-user's setup. IIRC other posts (on this thread, or maybe another) mentioned that Verizon was becoming more aware of the "hot" signal strength issues and were making some changes. Even the normal cableco's do that on a neighborhood basis on occasion, although theirs is usually in response to a weak signal.


----------



## robostock

Thos19 said:


> I've had FiosTV since March and experienced pixelation for the first time last night. QUOTE]
> 
> I also live in MA and experiencing pixelation with my FIOS. I don't have any attenuators so a service call may be in order.
> 
> OBTW: The channels were UHD and Discovery HD. Coincidently I think it started happening with the removal of the analog channels.
> 
> My question is:
> Would the removal of the analog affect the signal strength or quality in anyway?


----------



## hmm52

Thos19 said:


> I've had FiosTV since March and experienced pixelation for the first time last night. Thanks to this thread, I was prepared with attenuators, and fixed the problem...for now.
> 
> What is bugging me is this: Why did I not have a problem for the first few months? It seems like it should be either my signal is either too hot, or not. It shouldn't suddenly manifest itself out of the blue. I doubt that Fios suddently decided to boost my signal yesterday and cause the problem. If it is the tuner section in my Series 3 being inadequate to the task, is it a function or the circuitry "wearing out" over time from receiving a hot signal, and the eventual solution will have to be a new tuner board? Or perhaps the next generation of Tivo will be the solution as it may or may not have a better built tuner section?Thos.


I concur with Rich. Since signing up with FiOS 11/06, the signal from my central office has varied quite a bit. First 8 months were perfect. Rough patch of tiling/pixelation July/August last year. Catastrophic in November. Mild episodes after that. Pretty good for last 2.5-3 months. TiVos, HD & S3, are very sensitive to signal level. The task is easier if you've only got high level signals, not combined with ones too low.

I do have an S3 with one bad tuner. It's weaknesses haven't changed since being put into service the beginning of February. Tiling or no tune on the same channels as always.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

richsadams said:


> When everything has been fine for a time and then things go south my guess is that the FIOS signal is being adjusted by Verizon and has nothing to do with the end-user's setup.


Your speculation makes sense, but is still confusing to me. Maybe someone with more detailed FiOS knowledge can jump in.

My basic understanding is that FiOS TV is delivered to the ONT on the side of your house over fiber. Then the TV channels are converted into RF and sent over your coax cable to your TVs.

So does the FiOS system have the capability of remotely adjusting the RF signal strength in your ONT? Or is something else going on?


----------



## richsadams

Phantom Gremlin said:


> So does the FiOS system have the capability of remotely adjusting the RF signal strength in your ONT? Or is something else going on?


No idea, just a theory. But if attenuation can address the issues at one point and then things get bad and removing the attenuation makes things right again...my WAG is that the signal has changed.

They just laid FIOS in our neighborhood and I'm itching to jump on board, both for the (mostly) unadulterated TV signal as well as the big broadband "pipe". All this chatter still makes me think they haven't ironed out the fine points yet, so I'm a bit nervous.


----------



## webin

richsadams said:


> All this chatter still makes me think they haven't ironed out the fine points yet, so I'm a bit nervous.


Even on their worst day, I'd take Verizon over Comcast.


----------



## richsadams

webin said:


> Even on their worst day, I'd take Verizon over Comcast.


Good point!


----------



## Thos19

Well, I'm still having problems with pixelation even after the attenuation. Looking at the Hi-Def channel tier (which is all I really watch), it only happens on the local channels. Once I get to channel 825 and highter (TNT, HDNet, HBO) the reception is flawless with zero uncorrected and corrected errors. As a couple others on this thread have noted, it happens on one card in my Series 3, but not the other. I guess that is better than nothing.

I have a call into Fios to try to get someone out to my house and maybe dial down the signal strength. Then I guess I'll try the attenuation route again.

At least the pixelation didn't start until after I had watched season finale of LOST. 

Thos.


----------



## mazurkr

off topic somewhat...

but this thread came up in a google search for "fios lake oswego"

for those portland-area members, can you answer a coupla questions for me?

1 - i see fios is coming to lake oswego. is it also coming to west linn? if not, why not, as all the surrounding communities seem to be in the pipeline.

2 - for fios vs directv, will i be able to have access to midwest (specifically michigan) sports on any of the hd channels with fios, as i could get with the nfl and nba packages on directv?

thanks in advance!


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

mazurkr said:


> this thread came up in a google search for "fios lake oswego"


You may (or may not!) get better answers in this thread on avsforum.


----------



## richsadams

mazurkr said:


> off topic somewhat...
> 
> but this thread came up in a google search for "fios lake oswego"
> 
> for those portland-area members, can you answer a coupla questions for me?
> 
> 1 - i see fios is coming to lake oswego. is it also coming to west linn? if not, why not, as all the surrounding communities seem to be in the pipeline.
> 
> 2 - for fios vs directv, will i be able to have access to midwest (specifically michigan) sports on any of the hd channels with fios, as i could get with the nfl and nba packages on directv?
> 
> thanks in advance!


Welcome to the forum!

They've been busy installing FIOS in our part of LO for a couple of months now but haven't made it available yet. My brother-in-law lives in Wilsonville and had FIOS installed in his neighborhood about a year ago. Seems there's no rhyme or reason to the roll-outs except possibly permitting, available funding, etc. I'm sure West Linn is on the list, but who knows when it will appear.

No idea about the specific sports programs, but I'm looking at a Verizon brochure I picked up at one of their stores and it lists an add on premium offering called "Sports Package" for $7.99/mo. which offers 13 channels: Fox College, Sports (Atlantic, Central and Pacific), Outdoor, Sportsman and more. A Verizon CSR may or may not be able to answer your specific question and as Phantom says, the AVS Forum might get you some more info.

This Verizon link has a listing of HD and SD channels as well.


----------



## hmm52

You think Verizon may be withholding an offer because they know you'll be a demanding customer?

I wouldn't put too much stock in Fox Sports Net programming. ESPN passed on some tennis tournaments earlier this year that they traditionally carried. FSN picked them up. What a disaster. Their scheduling (and sticking to it) and coverage was abysmal in every respect. The local high school geeks could have done better. At the time I signed up, Verizon offered a significant discount if you signed up for both the movie & sports packages. I think FSN is done on an arcane regional basis. In Philly the association is with Comcast Sports Net - one of the channels that commonly pixelated with Phila. VHO. Each cable area's coverage is different; unlikely to be as broad as with satellite.


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## richsadams

hmm52 said:


> You think Verizon may be withholding an offer because they know you'll be a demanding customer?


What makes you think that?  

A Verizon FIOS installer of some nature was actually working on something in the little box/hole in the ground in front of our house when I went outside to get the mail. I asked her when she thought things would be up and running and she said everything will be active by the end of this month (June); then they have to run tests and such. She also said that she had heard about me and was disconnecting our house permanently.  Kidding. She said that we would be able to get FIOS access about mid July or so. Sigh. Can't wait!


----------



## hmm52

Your house *will* be disconnected permanently - from copper cables. Several summers ago, we had a nasty storm which felled many trees and utility wires. The power outage was expected to last 6 days, but ended at 4. The ONT UPS gave out at 8 hours or so. Only phone and Internet back then. T-Mobile service quit immediately; I guess the hamsters running the cell tower's generator took off with the wind. Dry ice and lanterns. Camping out for adults in home.

You should stay committed to griping at least a little. Verizon seems pretty pleased with themselves over FiOS TV. Apparently they've dropped their request_and_send IPTV deployment as if the plan never existed. Has to be good news for cablecard users. They don't see a "business case" for changing much. I haven't heard of any plans to increase QAMs at VHOs and COs so a significantly expanded lineup may not be a priority as well.

I saw some pixelation on an ESPN2HD recording for only the second time through the S3, yesterday. Since it was very occasional and limited, I wrote it off as source related. We'll see. I haven't heard back from exec's office about new replacement. Probably busy with the THD video freeze challenge.


----------



## wmcbrine

hmm52 said:


> I haven't heard of any plans to increase QAMs at VHOs and COs


Eh? They're doing that right now, in conjunction with the analog shutdown.


----------



## Deanq4

richadams:

I am in Forest Grove and they allowed me to get fios about 2 weeks early. Ask the techs for the number (will see if I can find it and PM it to you) and get signed up to get it a little before others. I was the first person in Forest Grove to get it and they were shocked that I was getting it. So it never hurts to bug them a little about the dates, they may even have a tenative roll out date set up.

They were great about the install too, jut be sure to give them a heads up that you have TiVo and want the cards, the guys I had actually enjoyed the tivo set-up (it went easy) and said off the record that they wished the set top boxes were as nice as the tivo's.


----------



## hmm52

wmcbrine said:


> Eh? They're doing that right now, in conjunction with the analog shutdown.


I just noticed Verizon's statement of today - 25 or so HDs to be added starting in July as analogs are progressively closed out region by region.


----------



## richsadams

Deanq4 said:


> richadams:
> 
> I am in Forest Grove and they allowed me to get fios about 2 weeks early. Ask the techs for the number (will see if I can find it and PM it to you) and get signed up to get it a little before others. I was the first person in Forest Grove to get it and they were shocked that I was getting it. So it never hurts to bug them a little about the dates, they may even have a tenative roll out date set up.
> 
> They were great about the install too, jut be sure to give them a heads up that you have TiVo and want the cards, the guys I had actually enjoyed the tivo set-up (it went easy) and said off the record that they wished the set top boxes were as nice as the tivo's.


Thanks for that...but I'm still a little leery of being the first on my block to get it. I yearn for that big broadband pipe and better HD PQ to be sure. But honestly, everything I have (Comcast triple package) is working without any issues. I'm worried about trading that for the possible problems I've read about here. I may wait a tad longer to see how it works for my neighbors. Sounds like your setup is humming along though which is encouraging. :up:


----------



## Thos19

Well, Verizon came out to my home to see my pixelation. Coincidentally or not, my pixelation started at the same time Verizon dropped the analog channels in my area, according to the technician. He said there was a new "filter" to put on the line that Verizon had been using recently in response to pixelation complaints. He also said my ONT was outdated (I had internet 2 years prior to TV being offered), and should be swapped. He did the work in about 30 minutes.

I really had my doubts that it would work, but the pixelation is completely gone for the moment, even with all of my attenuators removed. SNR still floats above the magic 31/32 (closer to 35/36), but I have zero uncorrected and zero corrected errors showing on the diagnostic screens. 

Don't know how long this will last, but I'll keep the attenuators handy.

Thos.


----------



## wmcbrine

It seems they often do the ONT swap, just because it's one of the few things they can actually do there at the customer's premises -- not because there's actually anything wrong with the ONT. However, as I understand it, the newer ONTs have a slightly less hot TV output.


----------



## richsadams

Thos19 said:


> Well, Verizon came out to my home to see my pixelation. Coincidentally or not, my pixelation stated at the same time Verizon dropped the analog channels in my area, according to the technician. He said there was a new "filter" to put on the line that Verizon had been using recently in response to pixelation complaints. He also said my ONT was outdated (I had internet 2 years prior to TV being offered), and should be swapped. He did the work in about 30 minutes.
> 
> I really had my doubts that it would work, but the pixelation is completely gone for the moment, even with all of my attenuators removed. SNR still floats above the magic 31/32 (closer to 35/36), but I have zero uncorrected and zero corrected errors showing on the diagnostic screens.
> 
> Don't know how long this will last, but I'll keep the attenuators handy.
> 
> Thos.


Good post...thanks for that. Seems that they might be getting a handle on things. :up:


----------



## JonHB

I found out last night that a few of my recordings were missed because Tivo stated that there was no signal. Sure enough, the channels in question were completely black, not even pixelated. I removed my 10db attenuator and the channels came back. However, I now have pixelation on a new set of channels (different ones from when I first put the attenuator on). Yep, I'm starting to think there was something changing on VZ's end as well. I'm in SoCal, and unfortunately, I don't follow the news on the analog disco dates so I don't know for sure if that is related. My pixelation is now on Showtime HD and I'm probably going to drop those channels anyways...


----------



## ilh

Based on another thread in this forum, it would appear this "filter" is a low-pass filter so MoCA signals don't mess with the TiVo's tuners.


----------



## hmm52

Correct. In November one marked "Low Pass Filter 5~860MHz" was installed between splitter and feed from ONT. A few cable ends, splitter, router, and ONT were also swapped out for updated models in November. None of it made one iota of difference. The number and severity of tiling channels remained exactly as they were for weeks. It all cleared overnight a few days later. A tech said that the problems had been corrected at CO. Later I found out that some using Motorola boxes had difficulties in many, not all, areas served by VHO8 during the same period - to about the level seen on the Sonys, not the mess on the Toshiba. The S3 would have fried or been comatose had it been in place then.

I have been expecting a flurry of pixelation when Verizon drops the analogs, 6/23 here, then adds new channels later. I wasn't expecting it this soon. The FO men's final was a disaster throughout (tiling wise also). I was a jackass for not recording on antenna channel or backing up on one of the Sonys. Complacency. Tiling and no tune has coincided with changes made at VHO. I agree that Verizon in particular has challenged the TiVos' tuning abilities. But am I the only one disappointed by TiVoJerry's post a few days ago? His suggestions are appreciated and they're not inaccurate. Missing though was an acknowledgement that, in terms of QAM tuning, Tivo is bringing up the rear. To me this apparent acquiescence doesn't bode well for TiVo's current or future products. _Bicker_ recently listed robustness as his top priority. I would settle for competitive performance. In the meantime I hope VHO8 and the Ambler CO get their acts together. Or it will be a rough summer for the S3.


----------



## richsadams

hmm52 said:


> I would settle for competitive performance.


 Here, here! :up: :up:


----------



## hmm52

No reason for anybody out your way to be apprehensive about new installs. You might remember that my best stretch with FiOS TV was the first 8 months. Perfect. Error free (except for billing of course). And VHO8 - Philadelphia has a well earned reputation for [insert slanderous noun of choice here ____________] and it seems VZ is dragging its heels on updating early COs. Mine 3 years old now. So what's life like in/on Lake Oswego?


----------



## richsadams

Yep, still looking forward to FIOS' big pipe and lotsa HD channels. Life is good here...last weekend it snowed not too far from here. This weekend it will be 80 degrees or so.  Other than that it's all good! (I usually hate that saying, but it applies at the moment.)


----------



## Thos19

Well that was brief. 

My pixelation is back, as before. Noticed it as I was about to watch the NBA finals last night. It was only happening on one tuner, so I simply watch the game on the "good" tuner.

(sigh) Guess I gotta try the attenuators again, tonight.

Since this all started when they dropped the analog channels in my area, I wonder if things might improve when they add the new HD channels in early July. I can hope, right? Right? 

Thos.


----------



## ilh

After reading about how MoCA can adversely affect the THD's tuners, I disconnected my FiOS-supplied ActionTec router from the coax. (It is connected to the ONT via Cat5 since I had FiOS internet long before TV was avilable.) After returning all my FiOS STB's, there was no point in having MoCA any longer for me.

Anyways, after doing this, I don't believe I have seen a single RS uncorrected error for several days. Before, I would get a few thousand over the course of a 4-hour NESN recording. The last several times I've checked, my RS uncorrected/corrected errors have been 0/0, even after 4-10 hours on channels that used to show occasional minor pixelation and RS uncorrected errors (e.g., NESNHD, DSCHD, etc...).

I think there is something to this MoCA interference, or at least ActionTec interference. Maybe I'll try removing my attenuators now.

--Lee


----------



## Thos19

The only pixelation I get is on the local HD channels 802-808. Anything above is perfect with no errors corrected or uncorrected.

I have my FIOS internet in the same set up as you, ilh, as I had it a year before FiosTV was made available in Abington, MA. Cat5 cable from the basement. Fios is just coaxial cable from the street.

I don't know much about MoCA. Care to elaborate further?

Thos.


----------



## ilh

Thos19 said:


> I don't know much about MoCA. Care to elaborate further?


The Verizon STBs talk to each other and the ActionTec router using MoCA, which is essentially ethernet over coax. This is how their DVR can stream content to other STBs.

MoCA uses frequencies above 1GHz, which shouldn't interfere with cable tuning (up to 850MHz with Fios, I believe). However, in a thread in this forum, a TiVo employee stated that MoCA can adversely affect a TiVo's tuning and that it is recommended to have a low-pass filter between MoCA and the TiVo, and that Verizon is now installing such filters in new installations with TiVos.

This does beg the question why is the TiVo's tuning affected by MoCA? It sounds like it is missing its own internal filter.

--Lee


----------



## webin

Is it possible to unplug the actiontec router from the system and see if the pixelation disappears? Would MoCa need to be disabled on the ONT at all (I'm not really sure how they work)? Does anyone with ethernet running to their ActionTec router experience pixelation?

If we can do field testing to determine if it's the actiontec router and/or moca, we could take steps to mitigate them. For instance, since I don't have any Verizon set-top boxes, I don't really need the actiontec router, and I don't need the moca.


----------



## Rowan

webin said:


> Does anyone with ethernet running to their ActionTec router experience pixelation?


I have ethernet running to my ActionTec from the ONT and still get pixelation but I do have two verizon boxs that are connected up to the ActionTecs moca connection.


----------



## ilh

Rowan said:


> I have ethernet running to my ActionTec from the ONT and still get pixelation but I do have two verizon boxs that are connected up to the ActionTecs moca connection.


That was exactly my configuration. The ActionTec and your two STBs are talking MoCA. It might be worth taking your ActionTec and STBs off coax for an hour or two to see if it improves things for your TiVo. I wouldn't recommend leaving unterminated coax laying around though as that could cause other problems (reflections). Best would be to route your TiVo Coax straight to the ONT.


----------



## webin

ilh said:


> Best would be to route your TiVo Coax straight to the ONT.


This is something I can do as a test, but with my schedule, I won't have much chance to until Wednesday evening. If anyone has the opportunity to try it earlier, I'd love to hear your results. Hopefully it will be "I saw pixelation, unplugged my router, pixelation went away, plugged it back in, pixelation came back."


----------



## moyekj

ilh said:


> The Verizon STBs talk to each other and the ActionTec router using MoCA, which is essentially ethernet over coax. This is how their DVR can stream content to other STBs.
> 
> MoCA uses frequencies above 1GHz, which shouldn't interfere with cable tuning (up to 850MHz with Fios, I believe). However, in a thread in this forum, a TiVo employee stated that MoCA can adversely affect a TiVo's tuning and that it is recommended to have a low-pass filter between MoCA and the TiVo, and that Verizon is now installing such filters in new installations with TiVos.
> 
> This does beg the question why is the TiVo's tuning affected by MoCA? It sounds like it is missing its own internal filter.
> 
> --Lee


 FYI, I use MOCA with Motorola NIM100 boxes and 2 S3s and have not experienced any sustained visual interference issues. My cable company recently expanded to 850MHz for video channels and still no issues for me. As stated MOCA operates >= 1GHz. The NIM100 boxes can be configured to use different frequencies if desired, but I left them at their default which I believe is close to 1GHz.
I saw that statement by TivoJerry about MOCA possibly interfering which got me wondering, so I went and checked a few channels for which I noticed I was getting some RS correctable & uncorrectable counts. Unplugging my MOCA devices did not change anything and then a couple of days later I checked again (with my MOCA units plugged in) and there are no RS errors anymore, so I conclude that was a cable company signal issue that was cleared up. These were HD channels recently added to the lineup.


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## webin

ilh said:


> It might be worth taking your ActionTec and STBs off coax for an hour or two to see if it improves things for your TiVo.


Does anyone know if I can physically reconnect the ethernet connection between my ActionTec and the ONT (and disconnect the coax connection) and reasonably expect the router to continue providing internet service? Would the home office need to reconfigure anything in the system, or would it simply work?

I briefly unplugged the coax to test it's affects on TV pixellation, but couldn't bear to be without my Internet long enough to get definitive results. My ONT still has a CAT-5 cable running into the box (but not plugged in), so all I would need to do is connect the actiontec to the wall.


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## hmm52

Verizon installed a low pass filter in November 2.5 months before buying first TiVo, an S3, but I did have 4 cablecard devices in place then. It did not decrease tiling.

The VZ filter is 40mm long; 14mm across the flats. (9/16 X 1.75"). Chrome with silver tape around center chamfer "5~860MHz Low pass filter". No brand or part # markings.

I have a free VZ STB connected in office but never use it. Currently I'm getting mild tiling through S3 on local HDs w/o attenuation so have 11dB att. at its cable input. For purpose of this post I removed attenuators then later disconnected Actiontec from splitter. No difference in tiling behavior on locals observed with or w/o router connected.

Living with FiOS and a TiVo could be miserable if not for attenuators - very dependent on your VHO and CO and how they're managing things at any one time. It varies much. I would think that they'd have enough sense to not add the new channels during the Olympics. Dropping the analogs here Monday. We'll see.


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## webin

hmm52 said:


> The VZ filter is 40mm long; 14mm across the flats. (9/16 X 1.75"). Chrome with silver tape around center chamfer "5~860MHz Low pass filter". No brand or part # markings.
> 
> I have a free VZ STB connected in office but never use it. Currently I'm getting mild tiling through S3 on local HDs w/o attenuation so have 11dB att. at its cable input. For purpose of this post I removed attenuators then later disconnected Actiontec from splitter. No difference in tiling behavior on locals observed with or w/o router connected.


In the interest of data collection, is it possible for you to remove the low pass filter and repeat the with/without attenuator tests? (I assume you can screw it on/off the coax line like the attenuators).

I've been attempting to test the without/without actiontec-speaking-moca stuff on my simple setup, but the pixellation I was seeing in normal configuration was pretty weak today. It's hard to test when it's not broken.


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## hmm52

Sure. Thursday evening though. Note that my VZ feed has been improving through the week. Thursday's signal is anybody's guess.

I assume you've seen the benefits of attenuators. That's where you'll see dramatic change.


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## webin

Yep... I do notice a difference when I put a little attenuation on the line. Most of my pixellation comes on 801 (Local Fox) and 803 (Local CW). Without attenuation, they are usually bearable, but occasionally completely unwatchable. With 8dB attenuation, they are always watchable, with only occasional mild pixellation.... but 802 (ABC) will sometimes lose it's signal completely. In the last couple days (while trying to test), I've actually not seen very much pixellation at all, and currently don't have any attenuators on.

Go figure... as soon as I want to test a theory (moca interference), it gets better on its own. I'm sure it's just a temporary clear area and pixellation will return eventually.


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## hmm52

I ran a basic test to find effect of Verizon filter on tiling/pixelation through my S3. Without attenuators it has been medium to heavy on the local HDs this morning and evening. I've seen worse. Both test series were with no attenuation, VZ STB powered up, and channels tuned for 45-70 minutes. RS Uncorrected values are at per hour rate and rounded to nearest thousand.

(first series)--*filter installed* at splitter input. Actiontec coax disconnected

507MHz... ch816... 743k RS Unc
525MHz... ch812... 605k RS Unc
525MHz... ch817... 714k RS Unc
519MHz... ch813... 450k RS Unc

(second series)--*filter removed* from splitter. Actiontec coax connected

525MHz... ch817... 742k RS Unc
519MHz... ch813... 516k RS Unc

No tiling was observed on scan of other channels which have previously tiled - with and w/o filter. Tests were obviously limited but the filter doesn't look like a factor to me, not in pixelation. I'll leave it off to see if anything else crops up. 11db is doing the job at the moment.


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## richsadams

hmm52 said:


> I ran a basic test to find effect of Verizon filter on tiling/pixelation through my S3. <snip>


Good info. Thanks! :up:


----------



## webin

I was really looking forward to testing the moca theories tonight, but I can't get the dang thing to be anything other than perfect!


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## hmm52

Verizon is cooperating with my tests. Most of the locals are still coming in at over 10,000 RS Uncorrected errors per minute. I ran 3 more series, all with 11db attenuators at S3 input. The second of these failed because of a freeze/reboot, and was redone. RS Unc values and rates were checked only at beginnings and ends of tests, and found to be over 10,000/minute each time; end of last test was highest, 11,330 - without attenuation. Duration was over 9 hours for both series. RS Uncorrected at per hour rate. (not in thousands)

(3rd series)--*filter removed* 11db attenuation Actiontec coaxed

513 MHz... ch811... 25,056 RS Unc

(4th series)--*filter installed* 11db attenuation Actiontec coaxed

513 MHz... ch811........ 689 RS Unc

I'll rerun the tests for obvious reasons.

*EDIT*--- I'm wrapping up the tests because the _quality_ of the VZ feed has shown itself to be too uneven. The final series were run this morning for an hour each. RS Uncorrected errors were very different when checked at end of each test for 15 minutes - attenuators removed.

(5th series)-- *filter installed* 11db atten. router coac connected

513 MHz... ch 811..... 5 RSU/hour....... With atten. removed - 1222 RSU/min.

(6th series)-- *filter removed* 11 db atten. router coax connected

513 MHz... ch 811..... 1 RSU/hour....... With atten. removed - 8667 RSU/min.

------- Anybody who wants to try my VZ filter in their setup is welcome to do that. Send me a PM. I don't think it diminishes pixelation in my configuration and use. Immediate and consistent results are what I'm looking for. Found with attenuation. Not found with the low pass filter.


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## jpulver

My Tivo HD worked fine with Comcast for a long time. Then my Tivo HD worked fine with Verizon FIOS for two months after I replaced Comcast with Verizon in January 2008. (Twelve hours for installation; an installer who had never seen a Tivo; great consternation.) By March, severe pixelation began on certain HD channels (the worst have been high-def CBS, ABC, NBC).

Verizon techs came and went more times than I can count. They were clueless. Most recently a tech tried everything he could think of (yet again) and then, as another tech had done before, he decided to swap out the cable cards. Big problem, however: He had never installed cable cards in a Tivo before. I was without service for two or three days while Verizon tried to figure out how they had screwed up my account. My account did not show that I am entitled to cable cards, so the cards wouldn't activate.

I called Tivo more than once, too, trying to get some help. The Tivo folks seemed to know less than Verizon, and certainly less than I had learned on this forum and elsewhere. Finally, a couple of days ago, I called Tivo and this time insisted on talking with someone who was familar with the pixelation problem involving Verizon FIOS and Tivo HD. 

Here's what I was told this time: It's imperative that Verizon install a "low-pass filter" at the ONT, and that the signal then be attenuated at the cable outlet closest to the Tivo HD. To fine-tune, I was told to attach attenuators to the cable until the diagnostics page (Tivo Central/Messages & Settings/Account & System Information/Diagnostics) shows a signal strength below 95 and an SNR no higher than 30-35. I was told I could reduce the signal strength to as low as 70-75. I was told to keep adding attenuation until the pixelation stops.

The Tivo tech asked me to notify Verizon that the preceding procedures and instructions will rectify the problem. For some reason, he said, Tivo was having trouble getting the word spread throughout Verizon. Odd. He emphasized that BOTH the low-pass filter AND the attenuators are needed to eliminate the pixelation.

I was skeptical, after having worked on this problem for months, but willing to try one more time. The Verizon tech came back, installed a low-pass filter and gave me a bag of attenuators. After adding 12 db of attenuation, I still had some pixelation. But after adding a total of 14 db of attenuation the pixelation finally has gone away. (At least for the past two days; but this time I think it's been stopped for good.)

On the "bad" channels, my signal strength is now down to 68-75, and SNR down to 30-33. I still get some RS Uncorrected errors, but not nearly as many as before. The large number (millions, sometimes) of RS Uncorrected errors always coincided with the pixelation.

My concern now is that the HD picture quality has been diminished. I'll keep watching, and if I become certain that the picture quality is not worth it, I'll do what I've been threatening to do for three months: switch back to Comcast and pay the extra $20 a month for fewer channels.

I hope this post helps others struggling with this frustrating problem.


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## richsadams

jpulver said:


> My Tivo HD worked fine with Comcast for a long time. Then my Tivo HD worked fine with Verizon FIOS for two months after I replaced Comcast with Verizon in January 2008. <snip> I hope this post helps others struggling with this frustrating problem.


That's very good info...thanks for the post. I'll keep it for the day that the VZ folks arrive at our doorstep, hopefully next month.

You have to wonder what happened between the time FIOS was installed and two months later to mess up your signal.  Others have reported similar issues; worked for months and then all sorts of problems that could only be corrected with attenuation, and now it looks like a filter as well. Then it makes me wonder if things will change again sometime down the road as it appears to have for others posting here that were able to reduce or remove their attenuation to get decent PQ. Hopefully VZ is narrowing things down to a signal that will work for everyone.

Thanks again! :up:


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## wmcbrine

jpulver said:


> My concern now is that the HD picture quality has been diminished.


Eh? Apart from actual errors (which appear as pixellation or dropouts), you can't affect the PQ from a digital signal. It's either there, or it's not. Attenuators cannot make it look worse (other than by causing dropouts).


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## hmm52

jpulver said:


> .....I was skeptical, after having worked on this problem for months, but willing to try one more time. The Verizon tech came back, installed a low-pass filter and gave me a bag of attenuators. After adding 12 db of attenuation, I still had some pixelation. But after adding a total of 14 db of attenuation the pixelation finally has gone away. (At least for the past two days; but this time I think it's been stopped for good.).....
> 
> My concern now is that the HD picture quality has been diminished. I'll keep watching, and if I become certain that the picture quality is not worth it, I'll do what I've been threatening to do for three months: switch back to Comcast and pay the extra $20 a month for fewer channels.
> 
> I hope this post helps others struggling with this frustrating problem.


I haven't noticed degradation in PQ with attenuation, as long as you don't push it too far and create pixelation or no tune with weak signals, anywhere in the lneup. Which is your VHO? My feed was perfect for 1st 8 months - VHO8 (Phia.) & local CO; off and on issues since then; very good for 3 month stretch until 2 weeks ago. Summer vacations?

Since the local HDs are the repeat offenders, I'll finish the Feb '09 antenna setup this weekend. It's better to get the locals reliably that way than receive aggravated calls from my wife, or sit down to recordings destroyed due to complacency. And if it's only the locals. you don't need attenuators with antenna in setup. I expect another rough period when VZ adds the new channels so fasten your seat belts.

As noted in edit to my previous post, I haven't found reason to believe in the low pass filter as a remedy for pixelation. Anyone who wants to try it for themselves, send me a PM.


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## jpulver

I hope you're right about attenuation not affecting PQ. I'll keep checking the PQ. Thanks.


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## moyekj

jpulver said:


> I hope you're right about attenuation not affecting PQ. I'll keep checking the PQ. Thanks.


 If you eliminate RS uncorrected errors and signal strength is OK then that's as good as it gets.


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## jpulver

My signal strength sometimes drops down to the 60s (with 14 db attenuation and a low-pass filter) but I'm still getting a picture. I still occasionally get a few hundred uncorrected errors (rather than the millions I was getting before the filter and attenuators), but no pixellation now. I think I'm good to go at this point. Finally.

Oh, and I think I'll soon decide that the picture quality has not been affected. I returned my tv's settings to default, and that seemed to do the trick.


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## bhaas

Any thoughts from folks why the filter should be installed at the ONT and not in front of the TiVo? There are no active components between the ONT and TiVo that can cause mixing or distortion products among the moca and TV signals- it would occur in the tivo's receiver. It seems, without knowing much about the setup, that the filter should be just upstream from the tivo. Clearly I don't understand something in the moca layout.


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## rifleman69

jpulver said:


> I hope you're right about attenuation not affecting PQ. I'll keep checking the PQ. Thanks.


He is right, this isn't analog anymore.


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## rocko

jpulver said:


> Here's what I was told this time: It's imperative that Verizon install a "low-pass filter" at the ONT, and that the signal then be attenuated at the cable outlet closest to the Tivo HD.


Wouldn't installing the low-pass filter at the ONT kill MoCA throughout the network? I guess it's OK if you don't have any STBs running but I imagine it would hose any MoCA dependent hardware. I, like others, am using NIMs to carry my ethernet to far-flung spots in my house.

Edit: Not to mention the Actiontec - I'm also a Verizon internet subscriber and am not running the ethernet from my ONT with cat 5.

I ask this in the interest of clarification, since I'm not (fingers crossed) experiencing major uncorrected errors. FYI I do have about 8db of attenuation on my S3 but none on my THD.


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## ah30k

rocko said:


> Wouldn't installing the low-pass filter at the ONT kill MoCA throughout the network? I guess it's OK if you don't have any STBs running but I imagine it would hose any MoCA dependent hardware.


I think the intent would be to install the low-pass just at the TiVo. Installing the low-pass at the ONT would do nothing since all of the MoCA sources would be on the local LAN.


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## rocko

ah30k said:


> I think the intent would be to install the low-pass just at the TiVo. Installing the low-pass at the ONT would do nothing since all of the MoCA sources would be on the local LAN.


When I said "throughout the network" I, of course, was referring to the local LAN. My point was that it would kill all MoCA traffic, screwing with VOD and the like.


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## ah30k

rocko said:


> When I said "throughout the network" I, of course, was referring to the local LAN. My point was that it would kill all MoCA traffic, screwing with VOD and the like.


A filter only stops signals going through the filter. If the filter is on any one device it would only stop the MoCA on that device. In this case, the filter on the ONT would prevent MoCA from going into the ONT. This neither helps the TiVo or stops the MoCA from working on the LAN. I don't thing the MoCA is used for VOD, just for inter-STB sharing. I am I am having a hard time explaining this in text form, the heat must be getting to me.


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## bhaas

VoD and guide data, etc are delivered to the ONT via IP transport... the data (1490nm, IIRC) not the television (1550nm) optical path. I am not sure how the STB receives the guide and VoD- dedicated TV band channel and signalling, I imagine


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## hmm52

I can't help with the speculation. I would tend to agree that if it's TiVos in particular that are having problems with the MoCA traffic then put the filters just ahead of them.

The tech who swapped out the ONT & splitter and installed the low pass filter, all in November, is the sharpest cable tech I've met. He is now the "Big Boss" for my general area. He is the only tech who has clipped a meter inside the ONT and read line errors at different frequencies directly from the street feed. This was after he checked _everything_ thoroughly throughout the house. I know. It seems ass backwards but it's the Verizon way. Once he saw the volume of line errors at ONT, he told me it had to be corrected at the street or central office level. Within 36 hours it was.

He installed the LP Filter at the input side (from ONT) of a 6 way splitter. Included on the output side were 4 cablecard devices, none of them TiVo then, and a basic VZ SD STB. The filter hasn't interfered with VZ STB guide data. I've never used VOD - except what drifted over from neighbors through clearQAM while with Comcast.


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## jpulver

See my post above from six days ago. I have a low-pass filter at the ONT, which has had no effect on the picture quality through my four Verizon set-top boxes, which I have in addition to my TiVo HD.

I have added 16 db of attenuation (two 8 db attenuators) to the cable attached to the TiVo HD box. I had been told by TiVo to continue to add attenuation until the pixellation stops. (Fourteen db nearly fixed it; 16 db absolutely stopped the problem.)

Now, finally, after adding the low-pass filter and the attenuation (as TiVo had recommended), I have finally eliminated the pixellation entirely. These changes have not affected the picture quality through the TiVo HD nor through the four STBs.

Spread the word!


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## ah30k

Where did you get your LPF? Is that a standard RatShack item?

Anyone know if the LPF will fix the audio dropouts?


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## jcostom

jpulver said:


> See my post above from six days ago. I have a low-pass filter at the ONT, which has had no effect on the picture quality through my four Verizon set-top boxes, which I have in addition to my TiVo HD.
> 
> I have added 16 db of attenuation (two 8 db attenuators) to the cable attached to the TiVo HD box. I had been told by TiVo to continue to add attenuation until the pixellation stops. (Fourteen db nearly fixed it; 16 db absolutely stopped the problem.)


I added a 20 dB attenuator on Friday (tried 3 and 16 first), and throughout the weekend, we've been pixelation free. We didn't have it all the time, but since adding the attenuator, it hasn't returned. I don't have a low-pass filter installed at this time. What symptoms would I be seeing were I in need of the low-pass filter?


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## thegeek

Instead of a low pass filter, has anybody tried a diplexer? You could ask your installer if they could toss you a MoCA NID and a pair of terminator caps. Heck, some installers are even putting in a MoCA NID even if it's not needed, so you might already own a spare one 

The NID is basically a diplexer that allows an installer to splice in a MoCA signal on top of another provider's video feed, since they run on different frequencies.

There are 4 ports on a MoCA NID.

RF out
ONT In
Home Coax
CATV In

In this application, you would plug your coax feed into ONT In, and then another cable into the RF out and have that feed the Tivo. Cap the other two off with 75 ohm terminator caps.


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## ah30k

Th problem is that if there are any STBs on the RF-LAN then the MoCA is already diplexed onto the RF cable and will get into the TiVo through the ONT-in.

edit - proved wrong. isn't the first and certainly won't be the last. I thought a diplexer added the two signals together but it turns out there is a low-pass on one input and a high-pass on the other prior to them getting added together.


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## thegeek

I was suggesting putting the NID right at the Tivo.

FYI, I'm parked at an SNR of 37 dB and it's purring like a kitten though I've only had the cards installed as of a few hours ago. The installer was kind enough to leave me with a handful of attenuators.

I had to throw 16 dB of attenuation to get it down to an SNR of 31 dB which drove the signal strength down to around 50. Got piles of uncorrecteds and the picture was breaking up. I'll keep the attenuators around just in case, but so far so good.

I currently do not have MoCA.


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## ah30k

thegeek said:


> I was suggesting putting the NID right at the Tivo.
> 
> ...
> 
> I currently do not have MoCA.


If you don't have MoCA then no worries.

If you did have MoCA on your local RF LAN (ie Verizon supplied STBs) then the MoCA signals would traverse through the NID un-impeded.

edit - proved wrong. isn't the first and certainly won't be the last. I thought a diplexer added the two signals together but it turns out there is a low-pass on one input and a high-pass on the other prior to them getting added together.


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## bhaas

the Tivo site specifically states a LPF or diplexer can be used (support article 5-12-01). 

A diplexer combines or splits out two different frequency bands, effectively filtering one from the other. A sat/antenna diplexer's cutoff on the antenna side is about 800MHz, and MoCA typically runs 950-1050MHz.

One word- a filter or diplexer may not always be a full solution- MoCA is designed to be able to run the "wrong" way across splitters and suffer lots of attenuation, so even a filter will not always knock it down completely.

RS has them for $21.99, p/n 16-2567. Circuit City has one for $8.95.
You need to install the diplexer "backwards"- connect the cable from the wall to the "TV" terminal (one terminal end), and connect the TiVo to the "ant" terminal. You need to put a 75Ohm termination cap on the "sat" terminal (6-pack at RS for a few dollars).

FWIW< I put one in on the HD I was having issues with and it DID make a significant difference.


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## ah30k

You're right. After further looking into it, I was mistaken. Thanks.


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## Deanq4

bhaas said:


> the Tivo site specifically states a LPF or diplexer can be used (support article 5-12-01).
> 
> A diplexer combines or splits out two different frequency bands, effectively filtering one from the other. A sat/antenna diplexer's cutoff on the antenna side is about 800MHz, and MoCA typically runs 950-1050MHz.
> 
> One word- a filter or diplexer may not always be a full solution- MoCA is designed to be able to run the "wrong" way across splitters and suffer lots of attenuation, so even a filter will not always knock it down completely.
> 
> RS has them for $21.99, p/n 16-2567. Circuit City has one for $8.95.
> You need to install the diplexer "backwards"- connect the cable from the wall to the "TV" terminal (one terminal end), and connect the TiVo to the "ant" terminal. You need to put a 75Ohm termination cap on the "sat" terminal (6-pack at RS for a few dollars).
> 
> FWIW< I put one in on the HD I was having issues with and it DID make a significant difference.


did you put it at the wall terminal or on the ONT?


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## bhaas

its sitting between the tivo and the house cabling. Make sure the "ant/sat" side is conected to the wall side, and the "ant" terminal connects to tivo, and the "sat" terminal is properly terminated. 

Putting it at the ONT will have little to no effect as far as I can tell, since the MoCA runs amongst the STBs and the router (or ONT, depending on which generation your local FiOS insall is), and would still be present at the TiVo is you only filter at the ONT.

BTW- saw a diplexer at Home Depot for $9.95.

I'll try to bring it into work tomorrow and get some S11/S21/S22 traces to show the filtering characteristics versus frequency.


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## Deanq4

bhaas said:


> its sitting between the tivo and the house cabling. Make sure the "ant/sat" side is conected to the wall side, and the "ant" terminal connects to tivo, and the "sat" terminal is properly terminated.
> 
> Putting it at the ONT will have little to no effect as far as I can tell, since the MoCA runs amongst the STBs and the router (or ONT, depending on which generation your local FiOS insall is), and would still be present at the TiVo is you only filter at the ONT.
> 
> BTW- saw a diplexer at Home Depot for $9.95.
> 
> I'll try to bring it into work tomorrow and get some S11/S21/S22 traces to show the filtering characteristics versus frequency.


Thanks, My issue is that when I add the right amount of att. I lose signal on a couple of channels. most of them are running between 50-60 (a little low for me) was wondering is the diplexer would help with that. I am thinking I might be able to lower the number if Attueters so that I still get a good signal (70+) and still keep the SNR to 30-31.


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## bhaas

It seems correct that adding a diplexer wil allow you to remove some attenuation, since the attenuators serve the dual purpose of cooling the desired signal down and also the MoCA signal. I would add the diplexer/filter and remove 3dB of attenuation, see what that does. 
Its frustrating, but trust me- this is exactly the same thing engineers do in the hardware lab- adjust one thing, check. Adjust one other thing a small amount, check. Adjust again, check. repeat.


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## Deanq4

Thanks I will try it out. Going to hit a Home Depot tonight and see it they have the diplexor reported. There is a ratshack on the way home (sorry not paying $21 for a diplexer) to the 75ohm caps. Will report back later.


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## rickster30us

About 2 weeks ago after nearly a year my S3 started pixelation on certain Starz channels. It does not do it all the time but has been getting worse over the past week. I have FIOS... I tried attenuating the signal but it did no good. When my SNR is around 34 or 35 I have no problems. When it starts pixelating the SNR jumps all over the place but usually 31 or less. I get tons of uncorrected SRs. The frequency affected is 621. I have read the posts and I don't think attenuating is my issue. I have VZ coming out today. However, around 10 pm last night the pixelating stopped. It is still not pixelating as of 3:30 PM. I don't know what is going on. I am getting some Corrected RS but no Uncorrected. I have 2 VZ boxes in addition to my TIVO. Any idea what I should do or tell Verizon. I don't understand why it starts and stops. It has stopped now for nearly 24 hours and I didn't do a thing. Any help is greatly appreciated. I also have FIOS Internet. I do not use the VZ DVR where I can play it from any room. Just the standard HD DVR boxes from VZ. BTW... What is MoCA?


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## bhaas

ask them for a lowpass filter to install between the TiVo and the wall cabling, or buy a diplexer.
MoCA is pretty much ethernet over coax, except it runs at 1GHz, above where TVs and STBs can see. Except, apparently, TiVo.

It's how the STBs get their program guide data, how they communicate with the mother ship about your PPV/VOD requests, and how the boxes receive the VOD shows.


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## Gerhard

FYI:

Today I added SAT/CTV Diplexers as low-pass filters to both my S3 Tivo and the output from the ONT (with 75 ohm terminators on the high-side of the diplexr).

On Universal HD I was getting tons of RS Uncorrected errors, so I lowered dB attenutators to a single 6dB one at the Tivo after the diplexer.

The RS Uncorrected errors have completely stopped. Video quality is still good, I'm just not getting any picture loss.

I do have a bunch of NM-100 units through-out the house, plus the ones built into the Motorola cable boxes.

I'm still not happy with the distortion / marco blocking /pixelization or whatever you get with action / reapid motion... and I wonder if that's a limitation with the S3 and MPEG compression, but the signal distortion issues seem to be solved.


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## Gerhard

bhaas said:


> Putting it at the ONT will have little to no effect as far as I can tell, since the MoCA runs amongst the STBs and the router (or ONT, depending on which generation your local FiOS insall is), and would still be present at the TiVo is you only filter at the ONT.


So the way it used to work is that if you had standard cable and you didn't have a low pass filter at the point that the cable came into your house, the ehternet-over-cable would go outside your house and back up stream.

Since FIOS is fiber, it really shouldn't be an issue, but I put one at both ends simply for network security as a "just in case." (Though it really should not be needed... you never know.)

I've actually separated out the MoCA network from the rest of the house network. (My firewall has multiple segments, and I'm using VLANs to give the NM-100, Tivos [3 of them], Denon AVR, AppleTV, and Motorola STBs their own internet connection.) You never know what information those devices could be used to collect, and I'm not going to just trust Verizon to protect me!

-grin-


----------



## thegeek

Most new installs use MoCA from the ONT to the router for the internet portion of FiOS as well. If you're not set up to have data run via ethernet from the ONT to your router then tossing a diplexer at the ONT filter MoCA will kill your internet.


----------



## Gerhard

thegeek said:


> Most new installs use MoCA from the ONT to the router for the internet portion of FiOS as well. If you're not set up to have data run via ethernet from the ONT to your router then tossing a diplexer at the ONT filter MoCA will kill your internet.


Nope, in my case there is an ethernet connection running to my computer room directly from the ONT.

What verizon typically does is install a router with a MoCA connection and then feeds that into the house cable from somewhere else in the house.

The Verizon tech that did the inital install was unable to explain to me why this was required. So I told him no, as why would I want Verizon installing something on my network that I have no clue what it's doing? (I had FIOS Internet before TV existed, so my router did not have a MoCA bridge in it...).

[The MoCA bridge is only required if you want the STB's from Verizon to actually get program data or do on-demand stuff, which is not needed if you have Tivos or don't care about on-demand.]

Currently, I use NIM-100s to bridge MoCA onto the cable system in the house, and that bridge is located in the computer room - not next to the ONT.


----------



## bhaas

thegeek said:


> Most new installs use MoCA from the ONT to the router for the internet portion of FiOS as well. If you're not set up to have data run via ethernet from the ONT to your router then tossing a diplexer at the ONT filter MoCA will kill your internet.


really??? There's no catV running from the ONT to the router? I thought that the new installs had catV for the PC-destined IP and coax for the STB running out of the ONT- with no coax at the router.

My install is the previous generation- all IP goes to the router, and the router splits the traffic onto coax or cat5.

If there is cat5 between the ONT and router, and no coax at your router, then all PC-destined IP (ie internet) is on the cat5, and filtering will have no effect.


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## Deanq4

ok, so after adding the diplexer like was stated above. I still get pixilation on a couple of channels, but is it less. I upped the attueters to 13db (from 12) and it gets the signal to 31 SNR, but still get pixilation on the ABCHD channel, it is better, but not great. If I bring it up to 15db it brings the signal down too low for most the channels. I think I may put things on hold till Fios changes and adds all the channels. i may then try to call verizon and have them look at it see it they can add something to fix it.


----------



## thegeek

bhaas said:


> really??? There's no catV running from the ONT to the router? I thought that the new installs had catV for the PC-destined IP and coax for the STB running out of the ONT- with no coax at the router.
> 
> My install is the previous generation- all IP goes to the router, and the router splits the traffic onto coax or cat5.
> 
> If there is cat5 between the ONT and router, and no coax at your router, then all PC-destined IP (ie internet) is on the cat5, and filtering will have no effect.


Assuming you don't have any NIMs or Verizon STBs, yes there's no MoCA to filter. Not everybody is on an Actiontec. Some folks have the older D-Link router + NIMs.


----------



## Gerhard

thegeek said:


> Assuming you don't have any NIMs or Verizon STBs, yes there's no MoCA to filter. Not everybody is on an Actiontec. Some folks have the older D-Link router + NIMs.


Yep, that would be me.

As for the post above yours...

I have had some pixelization after I put the splitters in, but it's been very light by comparion. Some of my channels are still VERY hot, even with 6dB of attenuation and the diplexer. (I'm thinking 8-10dB total...) Even when the signal strength is 70dB, the SNR is 33-35dB.

So I either need to get the Verizon filter, and see if it works better... or add a little more attenuation.

The difference is significant though...


----------



## Wakefield33

Worked for me, thank you AbMagFab !:up:


----------



## thegeek

Gerhard said:


> ....Even when the signal strength is 70dB, the SNR is 33-35dB.
> 
> So I either need to get the Verizon filter, and see if it works better... or add a little more attenuation.
> 
> The difference is significant though...


FYI, the signal strength figure isn't measured in dB. It's more like the bars on a digital cell phone which is an arbitrary score based upon statistics on how many errors it's picking up and either correcting or not.


----------



## Gerhard

thegeek said:


> FYI, the signal strength figure isn't measured in dB. It's more like the bars on a digital cell phone which is an arbitrary score based upon statistics on how many errors it's picking up and either correcting or not.


Interesting. Every distortion analyzer I've ever used displays SNR as XX decibels.


----------



## thegeek

SNR and "signal strength" are two different things.


----------



## lrhorer

thegeek said:


> SNR and "signal strength" are two different things.


OF course they are, which is why they also are measured in different units. S/N is the ratio of the signal level to the noise level, and is usually measured in dB. The signal level, sometimes called "signal strength". is a measure of the amount of signal (irrespective of the amount of noise), and can be measured in dBmV, dBm, dBW, Volts, mV, Watts, mW, etc. On CATV systems, the signal level is usually measured in dBmV. A signal level of +60dBmV is 1 Volt RMS across 75 ohms.


----------



## moyekj

I've never seen or heard of a Signal Strength reading on the Tivos greater than 100 (or less than 0 for that matter), so I assume it's some kind of percentage level unless the reading is truncated when > 100. I usually focus on SNR and RS corrected/uncorrected as more useful and well defined measurements.


----------



## Deanq4

so I have seen a little bit of pixilation, not as bad as before. I was wondering if it was more the SNR or the MCoS thing?

I went to watch one channel today and the signal was in the 40's and I could not watch it, so I need to remove some of the attueters, but then my SNR is going to be up in the 34-35 range.

Tips?


----------



## dforemsky

Can pixellation be caused by a bad cable card?

I've been trying to nail down my pixellation issue for a while now and last night noticed that the signal strength was jumping all over the place with one card and steady with the other. I'm just not sure if this a symptom of a bad card, bad Tivo or bad ONT.

I've tried different levels of attenuation, and even tried the backward diplexer idea last week. Attenuation helped on most of the channels, but the pixellation is stubborn on several of them (all of them in the "national" tier, mostly channels 144, 145 and 146 but probably more since those are my wife's favorite channels).

I called Tivo, and they recommended attenuation to keep the signal strength between 93 and 95. The problem with that is that when I do that for the bad channels, other channels have low signal. However, now the signal seems to jump all over the place on the bad channels.

I then called Verizon who tried a couple of things from their office that didn't help, then sent out a tech without any cable cards and had never even seen a Tivo. He left me some more attenuators and wished me luck.

Should I ask for a new card? A low pass filter? A cancellation of my TivoHD subscription?

thanks!


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## Deanq4

It sounds like it is just trial and error with the attueters. I have gone from 3 up to 16 and back trying to find a happy medium. I just started the diplexer thing, and have had better luck, but have not had it on long. I am trying to find out now if the signal strengh is the important factor or is it more of the SNR thing.


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## jcostom

After adding a 20dB attenuator to our THD, nearly all of our pixelation problems vanished, with one exception - Food Network HD. That's been the problem child, and mostly at night, in particular. We do enjoy Next Food Network Star and the Challenges, so we wanted to get it cleared up.

I added a diplexer, flipped around with the extra pole capped, and the pixelation seems to have vanished. It could just have been a lucky run of 15 minutes, but we'll see. For us, the combo of the reversed diplexer and a 20dB attenuator seems to be the magic combination.

I about blew the minds of the guys in Radio Shaft when they found out what I was going to be doing with the diplexer. They also had that deer-in-the-headlights glare in their eyes when I mentioned the attenuators too. "So, an attenuator, that's like an amplifier, but backwards?" Yikes.


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## litkaj

jcostom said:


> I about blew the minds of the guys in Radio Shaft when they found out what I was going to be doing with the diplexer. They also had that deer-in-the-headlights glare in their eyes when I mentioned the attenuators too. "So, an attenuator, that's like an amplifier, but backwards?" Yikes.


Hey, at least your's carries them. I went to the local crap shack last weekend looking for a diplexer and they didn't have those or the F-terminators.


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## mulscully

dforemsky said:


> Can pixellation be caused by a bad cable card?
> 
> I've been trying to nail down my pixellation issue for a while now and last night noticed that the signal strength was jumping all over the place with one card and steady with the other. I'm just not sure if this a symptom of a bad card, bad Tivo or bad ONT.
> 
> I've tried different levels of attenuation, and even tried the backward diplexer idea last week. Attenuation helped on most of the channels, but the pixellation is stubborn on several of them (all of them in the "national" tier, mostly channels 144, 145 and 146 but probably more since those are my wife's favorite channels).
> 
> I called Tivo, and they recommended attenuation to keep the signal strength between 93 and 95. The problem with that is that when I do that for the bad channels, other channels have low signal. However, now the signal seems to jump all over the place on the bad channels.
> 
> I then called Verizon who tried a couple of things from their office that didn't help, then sent out a tech without any cable cards and had never even seen a Tivo. He left me some more attenuators and wished me luck.
> 
> Should I ask for a new card? A low pass filter? A cancellation of my TivoHD subscription?
> 
> thanks!


had a similar issue, removed cable cards, blew them and the slot on the tivo with air, and reseated them.. rebooted and everything was fine...

BTW no attenuators in my tivo 100% signal strenght and the SNR? in the mid to upper 30's.. Have attenuators, just havent had to use them yet...


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## rifleman69

Deanq4 said:


> It sounds like it is just trial and error with the attueters. I have gone from 3 up to 16 and back trying to find a happy medium. I just started the diplexer thing, and have had better luck, but have not had it on long. I am trying to find out now if the signal strengh is the important factor or is it more of the SNR thing.


Have diplexor and I believe 12db's of attenuation here with no to very very little attenuation here. Used to have some problems with UHD, HDNet, and the HDTheater Discovery Channel (but not Discovery HD) every now and then but that's it. Keep fiddling around with it Deanq.


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## bk_mallicote

Notification send out 7/22 to VZ employees. This issue would have to be resolved by a field technician.

*Technical Description
Some customers may report that their TiVo Series 3 or TiVo HD DVR is exhibiting severe tiling / pixelation / macroblocking on multiple channels.

*Communication to Customer
Apologize to the customer for the inconvenience and perform the below workaround.

*Resolution/Workaround
In order to workaround the tuner issue within TiVo, alter the RF power levels reaching the unit within the home. If multiple TiVo units are in place, RF power levels to each unit must be adjusted individually. Testing has shown that attenuating the signal to the TiVo to an approximate power level of -17.5dBmv digital (ch 55), then the tiling issue is alleviated.

Procedure:
Step 1. Access the TiVo diagnostic screen (TiVo, Messages & Settings, Account & System Information, Diagnostics)
Step 2. Locate the Signal to Noise rating (SNR, provided in dB) Note: [Normal SNR should be in the 35-37dB range]
Step 3. Attenuate the signal to the TiVo until the SNR is this screen reads in the 31-32dB range
Step 4. Verify RF levels with Sunrise meter (should be in -17.5dBmv range for digital channel 55)
Step 5. Check that channels for all subscribed services are funtioning (tunable) by the TiVo
Step 6. Check that the channels that were exhibiting tiling are displaying normally.


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## FiosUser

bk_mallicote said:


> Notification send out 7/22 to VZ employees. This issue would have to be resolved by a field technician.
> 
> *Technical Description
> Some customers may report that their TiVo Series 3 or TiVo HD DVR is exhibiting severe tiling / pixelation / macroblocking on multiple channels.
> 
> *Communication to Customer
> Apologize to the customer for the inconvenience and perform the below workaround.
> 
> *Resolution/Workaround
> In order to workaround the tuner issue within TiVo, alter the RF power levels reaching the unit within the home. If multiple TiVo units are in place, RF power levels to each unit must be adjusted individually. Testing has shown that attenuating the signal to the TiVo to an approximate power level of -17.5dBmv digital (ch 55), then the tiling issue is alleviated.
> 
> Procedure:
> Step 1. Access the TiVo diagnostic screen (TiVo, Messages & Settings, Account & System Information, Diagnostics)
> Step 2. Locate the Signal to Noise rating (SNR, provided in dB) Note: [Normal SNR should be in the 35-37dB range]
> Step 3. Attenuate the signal to the TiVo until the SNR is this screen reads in the 31-32dB range
> Step 4. Verify RF levels with Sunrise meter (should be in -17.5dBmv range for digital channel 55)
> Step 5. Check that channels for all subscribed services are funtioning (tunable) by the TiVo
> Step 6. Check that the channels that were exhibiting tiling are displaying normally.


Hip-hip-hooray!


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## Deanq4

Update: Ok so I brought it down to 10 DB with the diplexer. Seems to be ok, at least I can deal with it. I see some pixialation, but not as bad as before. It may be the chanels now since we just did a huge channel change here and a couple of them are new. Plus some issues are on channels that I had before, but were fine.


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## webin

Lowes stocks diplexers for $8.98, and F-Terminators for $2.97/4 or $5.97/10.


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## webin

webin said:


> Lowes stocks diplexers for $8.98


This doesn't seem to affect my pixellation at all. This is the diplexer Lowes sells: http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=85-323

When I hook it into my coax line just before the tivo, in either direction, it seems like it has zero effect on pixellation. It's actually worse than what I'm currently using... a 4-way splitter (5-900 mhz) and 6db of attenuation. I am using the splitter for the simple fact that it provided the female connection I needed to hook in the attentuator, but I'm thinking it may be helping block the moca too. I'd say this setup blocks 90% of my pixellation, so I'm not sure why I'm even playing with the diplexer.


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## mbhuff

As been mentioned before, but easy to miss, even though a splitter is only rated for 5-900 mhz, that just means that's all it's designed for. It doesn't mean that it will definitely block everything >900 mhz. A diplexer or low pass filter is designed intentionally to block all signals > 860 or so. I diplexer or low-pass filter is only needed if it's possible that a MoCA signal (ethernet over coax cable) is being sent along the line.


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## mulscully

ok, last night out of no where massive pixellation snr all over the place 31 - 76 and signal strength jumping 45-95. all on 810 NBC Philly Area - channel 817.. as a matter of fact I noticed all the channnels pixalating were in the 500000khz area.. other channels were fine.. Added diplexer - no help - disconnected Moca - no help, reconnect Moca, left duplexer in and added 13 db of attenuation - FIXED..

unless I missed it somewhere I think we should be trying to figure out if it is a freq range with the issue.. I know FIOS has been doing channel reallgnment, so not sure if 810 - 817 were in the 500000khz range before reallignment.. Maybe the Tivo is particularly sensitive within a freq range.. Maybe I did not notice it before because the pixalation was on channels I don't watch....


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## hmm52

TiVos are sensitive to signal but not within specific frequency ranges - in my experience. When Verizon's signals are off, as they have been on the local HDs for past 5-6 weeks, I see it on both an S3 and Toshiba cablecard TV, same channels. Locals are notorious here VHO8 Phila., Ambler CO but 3 prior months were solidly fine - no antenna or attenuators needed. (5-600Mhz range for locals also; same place as always). 14db currently clipped in at back of S3. 8db on Toshiba. All's well. For now.

Major addition of channels is yet to come -- unless I missed it. Been overseas for awhile experiencing the incredible shrinking dollar.


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## webin

hmm52 said:


> Major addition of channels is yet to come -- unless I missed it. Been overseas for awhile experiencing the incredible shrinking dollar.


Nope, hasn't hit you in PA yet. I think you're looking at early September.

Tonight when I get home from work, my plan is to get the Fiber Solution Center to disable MOCA on my ONT, enable Ethernet, and break my IP lease. This should (in theory) get me back online, but with no MOCA signals on my network. If my light pixelation continues, then we'll know it's more than just those frequencies causing interference.

~~~~
Update: It took the FSC tech guys about 10 minutes total to get my requests taken care of. At this point, my internet is over Ethernet, and there should theoretically be no MOCA on my network. On the ONT box, the Ethernet light is on, and the MOCA light is off.

I'm still seeing very light pixelation on my worst offending TV channel. Previously, I was using 6db of attenuation, and right now I'm using none. I'd say it's comparable, or a little worse, than what I experienced with 6db of attenuation. I'll keep an eye on it and add a little attenuation back (or play with the diplexor) to see if I can knock the pixelation down to nothing.

(This test has proven that the MOCA signal may be a contributing factor, but isn't the sole culprit.)


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## mulscully

update: after attentuation all is well with that Tivo... had Verizon install another set of CCs in a new tivo.. Both Tivos are hooked to the same splitter (only 2 things on that splitter) 1 tivo needs attentuation, other is fine without it.. Go figure....


----------



## webin

mulscully said:


> Both Tivos are hooked to the same splitter (only 2 things on that splitter) 1 tivo needs attentuation, other is fine without it.. Go figure....


See.. that's an interesting observation. To me, that says that the source of the pixellation is inside the tivo box, and varies from box to box. It makes me think about manufacturing tolerances and how one box could have a "weak link" that is introducing the pixellation (which I'm thinking is related to radio frequency interferance). I guess Cable Cards could also be the source, but I'm less electronically inclined to know how.


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## johnhab

So I'm in Northern Virginia and got FIOS about a 4-5 weeks ago. The guy came in, got the cable cards set up and it worked flawlessly on my S3 for 2 weeks. After that, well beyond pixelation, I would get virtually total un-usability (box would not respond to remote, would lock up and reboot by itself, etc.). Thought it was a bad hard drive but still talked with TiVo support and they concluded it was the strength of the FIOS signal (box works fine when you remove the input).

So I've read most of this thread and went out and got the SmartHome attenuators and a diplexer. Through trial and error I estimate I need something like 28dB of attenuation (I have to split my signal and the splitter output is -7dB), but I cannot generate that exact number (21dB) with the SmartHome attenuators as the smallest increment they have is 3db (22dB cards can't tune, 20dB box operation stutters, see below), so a bunch of questions:

1) Given my attenuation guess above, does anyone know of a place on the net that sells 1 and/or 2db attenuators, or alternatively a variable attenuator like Radio Shack used to sell, but has decided that it doesn't carry anything useful anymore (yes sarcasm but I don't understand why someone would go to RS to buy a cell phone or stereo when there's 10 other places much better suited to do so).

2) In doing my testing I either get 29-30dB of S/N, which gets me fine reception on SD channels, but HD either doesn't tune at all or is pixelated, with signal strength of about 45. If I drop attenuation the smallest increment I can (22dB to 20dB), I then get 31-33dB S/N, signal strength jumps to 55-60, but then the box starts to choke (the background routines start to stutter, remote commands begin to not be acknowleged, etc.). Do I have any hope of getting a satisfactory result if I can change my attenuation by 1 or 2dB? My box seems extremely sensitive/to have a very narrow range in which it might work.

3) If I have Verizon come out and reduce the signal strength at their closet, will that help my cause as I won't have to attenuate the signal so much that I begin to lose reception completely? Most of the #s I've seen in this thread have been in the teens or lower, not 27dB.

4) Also I notice that one cable card usually has a slightly lower S/N than the other, e.g., one will have 31 dB S/N, while the other has 30dB, and also the signal strengths differ by 3-6 (not sure of SS units). Is that normal? Should I ask Verizon for another set of possibly "better matched" cable cards?

5) Sorry if this is stupid question, but when I went on SmartHome and bought the attenuators, one of the "customers who bought this also bought" items was a tilt compensator? Would that help in this case by "leveling" the attenuation across the frequency spectrum such that HD channels won't cut out when the right S/N is achieved?

6) I'm sorry but I haven't seen in the thread what ONT and MoCA means? Could someone decrypt the acronyms for me?

7) Any other recommendations? After hours of fruitless trial-and-error I was seriously ready to take my S3 and throw it out the window -- but fortunately came to my senses! ;-)


----------



## wmcbrine

johnhab said:


> 6) I'm sorry but I haven't seen in the thread what ONT and MoCA means? Could someone decrypt the acronyms for me?


ONT = Optical Network Terminal -- the big box on (probably) the outside of your house. This is where the laser is.

MoCA = Multimedia over Coax Aliiance -- this is the system Fios uses to send TCP/IP over your coaxial TV cables. It's used between the Verizon set-top boxes and the router, and (often, but not always) between the router and the ONT.


----------



## johnhab

wmcbrine said:


> ONT = Optical Network Terminal -- the big box on (probably) the outside of your house. This is where the laser is.
> 
> MoCA = Multimedia over Coax Aliiance -- this is the system Fios uses to send TCP/IP over your coaxial TV cables. It's used between the Verizon set-top boxes and the router, and (often, but not always) between the router and the ONT.


Thanks, that info helps. I'm in a large condo building, so I'm guessing the ONT is in a closet somewhere in the building. Verizon gave me two boxes within my unit: 1) a ZyXEL VDSL modem and 2) a 3rd-party wireless router that is Verizon branded. The tech said something like the VDSL modem was for pay per view/on demand stuff, but I don't remember exactly.

So ONT was previously discussed because either 1) the best solution is to decrease the signal at the ONT and/or 2) attenuate it there vs. within my unit?

And MoCA was discussed because the frequencies employed/signal strength/other characteristics of this system are wholly/partially the root cause for the TiVos overloading (aside from the TiVo circuitry issues mentioned)?


----------



## webin

I'm sorry to hear you're having such a rough experience Johnhab. Have you looked around the forums to determine if you are having the "S3 pixellation/stuttering/rebooting" issues? I don't know much about them, but having your TV signal go from perfect to crap after 2 weeks makes me think it could be the box just as much as it's the signal (and "works perfectly when source is unplugged" is something specific I've heard from that line of troubleshooting).

If it IS the FiOS signal, I've never heard of anyone needed more than 20db of attenuation, and most are much lower (I use 6db). You'd be the worst on the forums  I have no idea what a tilt-a-whirl is, but I'd definitely recommend having a FiOS tech come out to troubleshoot your connection. They can use their equipment to check signal strength coming out of the ONT, as well as what's coming out of the wall by your TV. They should also definitely install a "low pass filter", which could presumably help somewhat. If you convince them that the issue is with their signal, you may/should be able to get them to do the service call for free.

Good luck!


----------



## SeanC

johnhab said:


> Thanks, that info helps. I'm in a large condo building, so I'm guessing the ONT is in a closet somewhere in the building. Verizon gave me two boxes within my unit: 1) a ZyXEL VDSL modem and 2) a 3rd-party wireless router that is Verizon branded. The tech said something like the VDSL modem was for pay per view/on demand stuff, but I don't remember exactly.
> 
> So ONT was previously discussed because either 1) the best solution is to decrease the signal at the ONT and/or 2) attenuate it there vs. within my unit?
> 
> And MoCA was discussed because the frequencies employed/signal strength/other characteristics of this system are wholly/partially the root cause for the TiVos overloading (aside from the TiVo circuitry issues mentioned)?


I live in a condo and have exactly the same system. Because we have Zyxel modems we don't have to use the Verizon router (probably an Actiontec MI424WR), thus eliminating MoCA, because our internet comes from the modem and not the router. This only works if you aren't using Verizon cable boxes, which I am not, so I gave the heaveho to the actiontec, I still need to attenuate my signal though to avoid pixelation.


----------



## hmm52

johnhab said:


> ....So I've read most of this thread and went out and got the SmartHome attenuators and a diplexer. Through trial and error I estimate I need something like 28dB of attenuation (I have to split my signal and the splitter output is -7dB), but I cannot generate that exact number (21dB) with the SmartHome attenuators as the smallest increment they have is 3db (22dB cards can't tune, 20dB box operation stutters, see below), so a bunch of questions:
> 
> 1) Given my attenuation guess above, does anyone know of a place on the net that sells 1 and/or 2db attenuators, or alternatively a variable attenuator like Radio Shack used to sell, but has decided that it doesn't carry anything useful anymore (yes sarcasm but I don't understand why someone would go to RS to buy a cell phone or stereo when there's 10 other places much better suited to do so).
> 
> 2) In doing my testing I either get 29-30dB of S/N, which gets me fine reception on SD channels, but HD either doesn't tune at all or is pixelated, with signal strength of about 45. If I drop attenuation the smallest increment I can (22dB to 20dB), I then get 31-33dB S/N, signal strength jumps to 55-60, but then the box starts to choke (the background routines start to stutter, remote commands begin to not be acknowleged, etc.). Do I have any hope of getting a satisfactory result if I can change my attenuation by 1 or 2dB? My box seems extremely sensitive/to have a very narrow range in which it might work.
> 
> 3) If I have Verizon come out and reduce the signal strength at their closet, will that help my cause as I won't have to attenuate the signal so much that I begin to lose reception completely? Most of the #s I've seen in this thread have been in the teens or lower, not 27dB.
> 
> 4) Also I notice that one cable card usually has a slightly lower S/N than the other, e.g., one will have 31 dB S/N, while the other has 30dB, and also the signal strengths differ by 3-6 (not sure of SS units). Is that normal? Should I ask Verizon for another set of possibly "better matched" cable cards?
> 
> 5) Sorry if this is stupid question, but when I went on SmartHome and bought the attenuators, one of the "customers who bought this also bought" items was a tilt compensator? Would that help in this case by "leveling" the attenuation across the frequency spectrum such that HD channels won't cut out when the right S/N is achieved?
> 
> 6) I'm sorry but I haven't seen in the thread what ONT and MoCA means? Could someone decrypt the acronyms for me?
> 
> 7) Any other recommendations? After hours of fruitless trial-and-error I was seriously ready to take my S3 and throw it out the window -- but fortunately came to my senses! ;-)


It would be helpful if all FiOS TV users had the area in their profile; better yet their CO, central office. I've used FiOS TV since 11/06 and believe that signal problems are directly related to the VHO and CO serving you; occasionally the faults might be on the house or street level; never in my case. Varies month to month, and sometimes hour to hour. First tile not seen until 7/07, accompanied by a million friends; second catastrophic period was in 11/07 - always on Toshiba cc TV, not the Sony cc devices. Also seen by many, not all, served by VHO8 (Phila) at those times with VZ's own Motorola boxes.

I've only seen reboots clearly caused by signals once. This was my fault as I had a distribution amp in antenna setup that was too much for the S3 and seriously interfering with tuner 0's QAM tuning, but not tuner 1's. When gain at ant. dist. amp was decreased or ant. coax removed, or QAM channel changed to an easier one, nasty reboot cycle stopped. But I've never needed anything near 28db of attenuation to eliminate pixelation. As others have said, there may be variation in tuners from TiVo to TiVo. The tuner is not their strength. 14db att. is where it's at now during a rough patch.

Your starting point should be the signal level at coax end before TiVo. VZ tech can check this. VZ's recommended range is 0-6; for TiVo it should be 0; db or dbmv or something else I don't know. Tech should also give you a bunch of attenuators. VZ's are 3,6,8 and 9db I think. Should be all you need if you have enough of each.

I don't like splitters inline, especially for devices very sensitive to signal, so avoid them. Better to have straight shot to VZ splitter near ONT. If you do it yourself, Lowe's has the tools, cable, and terminals you need (pass on the Phillips ends though). Care required with shielding and center wire protrusion should be minimal.

Verizon installed a Low Pass Filter with other things 11/07. When pixelation returned in June after a perfect two months, I tested it in and out. In my setup it made no difference whatsoever to pixelation but I have little to no MOCA activity in house. I have since sent it to NJ FiOS TCF member. It made no difference in his case either but don't know his MOCA status.

Early in the pixelation threads, there was discussion of tilt compensators. I don't remember anybody using them successfully. In the end it is Verizon's problem and their responsibility. TiVo owner's shouldn't have to do more than use a modest amount of attenuators from time to time. VZ is capable of providing a quality signal for extended periods of time. With some VHOs and COs, that's all they provide. In other areas their feeds fall into the ditch for short and long stretches. They need to be told this by customers even if it's a PITA for us. Much patience required as only the top techs and "Big Bosses" have the ears of the CO, maybe VHO. - my experience. When problem reaches them, resolution can be very quick - 24-36 hours.

Antenna should be an easy alternative to attenuation if your pixelation is just on the locals. - common

I've used up to 5 cablecard devices since '05. They are used for decryption, then display obviously. But I don't believe they make a bit of difference to tuning. When the cards are pulled, the diagnostic values, SS, SNR etc., remain exactly as they were. Same for premiums not in your package; they are tunable but not available to watch without authorization. The exception in my memory being SA cards years ago which had electrical flaws that necessitated modifications to Sony HD DVRs that had to use them because of provider.

Good luck


----------



## johnhab

SeanC said:


> I live in a condo and have exactly the same system. Because we have Zyxel modems we don't have to use the Verizon router (probably an Actiontec MI424WR), thus eliminating MoCA, because our internet comes from the modem and not the router. This only works if you aren't using Verizon cable boxes, which I am not, so I gave the heaveho to the actiontec, I still need to attenuate my signal though to avoid pixelation.


But SeanC I have the ZyXEL but failed to mention that I also have a Verizon HD/DVR box as well (which has worked fine thus far), so that is inconsistent with your setup.


----------



## johnhab

webin said:


> I'm sorry to hear you're having such a rough experience Johnhab. Have you looked around the forums to determine if you are having the "S3 pixellation/stuttering/rebooting" issues? I don't know much about them, but having your TV signal go from perfect to crap after 2 weeks makes me think it could be the box just as much as it's the signal (and "works perfectly when source is unplugged" is something specific I've heard from that line of troubleshooting).
> 
> If it IS the FiOS signal, I've never heard of anyone needed more than 20db of attenuation, and most are much lower (I use 6db). You'd be the worst on the forums  I have no idea what a tilt-a-whirl is, but I'd definitely recommend having a FiOS tech come out to troubleshoot your connection. They can use their equipment to check signal strength coming out of the ONT, as well as what's coming out of the wall by your TV. They should also definitely install a "low pass filter", which could presumably help somewhat. If you convince them that the issue is with their signal, you may/should be able to get them to do the service call for free.
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks webin. No I haven't looked at those separate issue(s) because as I said I originally thought it was a bad hard drive but went through the diagnostics with TiVo support and they said since HD/other content played back fine when the cable wasn't connected, it almost certainly wasn't the HD, but the fact that the box locks up due to the overwhelming strength of the FIOS signal.

Yeah unfortunately I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm going to have to have Verizon to come out again to fix it or at least get it to a point where the signal is at a level where I could fix it with what I have at hand (i.e., not having to attenuate the signal 27dB!).


----------



## SeanC

Yeah, I thought you might have a Verizon box. Oh well.


----------



## lrhorer

ciucca said:


> I work for Verizon and this is Bull Crap. We do not change our signal.


So in other words the Verizon representative lied to the subscriber.

In fact, I am sure you are correct. The specifications for signal levels at the ONT have probably not changed, and it is somewhat unlikely there was any neighborhood wide change in levels at any time since the delivery of service.



ciucca said:


> The only thing left to blame is the Tivo box.


'Total horse pookey. There are hundreds of other things which can be causing the problem, over a dozen of which are extremely common.



ciucca said:


> I do own a TIVOHD  even though I work for Verizon.:


It doesn't mean you know what the hell you are talking about. Where and when did you get your engineering degree or NSCTE certificate?


----------



## lrhorer

dforemsky said:


> Can pixellation be caused by a bad cable card?


Surely. Anything in the signal path can adversely affect it.



dforemsky said:


> I've been trying to nail down my pixellation issue for a while now and last night noticed that the signal strength was jumping all over the place with one card and steady with the other. I'm just not sure if this a symptom of a bad card, bad Tivo or bad ONT.


One card, or one tuner? It could be a symptom of any one or more of them being bad or something else. You need to narrow down the symptoms a great deal. Do you have an M-card or two S-cards?



dforemsky said:


> I called Tivo, and they recommended attenuation to keep the signal strength between 93 and 95. The problem with that is that when I do that for the bad channels, other channels have low signal. However, now the signal seems to jump all over the place on the bad channels.


You need to determine what the actual levels are. Once that is done, you can determine if attenuation, amplification, or equalization is appropriate. Until then, there's really not much definitive which can be said.



dforemsky said:


> I then called Verizon who tried a couple of things from their office that didn't help, then sent out a tech without any cable cards and had never even seen a Tivo. He left me some more attenuators and wished me luck.


Did he read out to you the actual levels of a number of carriers in the spectrum? We need hard data before we can really talk about either likely problems or solutions.



dforemsky said:


> Should I ask for a new card? A low pass filter? A cancellation of my TivoHD subscription?


No, first you need firm signal level data at the output of the ONT and at the back of your TiVo. Make sure all connections are tight (not too tight!) and al the connectoirs are properly crimped. Unless you are a champion weightlifter, you should be able to take the cable (not attached to any device), grasp the connector in one hand and the cable in the other and pull as hard as you can without the connector coming off in your hand. The connectors should thread easily and snuggly all the way down on the splitters, termination bocks, etc. There should be no evident cuts or kinks in the cables. Any cable which was at one time severely kinked should be replaced - the kink may have cracked the shielding.


----------



## lrhorer

johnhab said:


> So I've read most of this thread and went out and got the SmartHome attenuators and a diplexer. Through trial and error I estimate I need something like 28dB of attenuation


That is an awful lot. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a lot.



johnhab said:


> (I have to split my signal and the splitter output is -7dB), but I cannot generate that exact number (21dB) with the SmartHome attenuators as the smallest increment they have is 3db (22dB cards can't tune, 20dB box operation stutters, see below), so a bunch of questions:


I don't follow you, at all. What is the output of the ONT at the lowest frequency (55 MHZ) and the highest frrequency (850MHz) carrier? How many TVs do you have? What are the cable distances to the TVs? What was the measured signal level at each set? An exact amount of attenuation is not necessary. The TiVo will receive signals across a wide range of levels. They just need to be fairly flat, no more than 1000MHz in frequency, within the receiver's sensitivity range, and not exceeding in total power the receiver's maximum limit. I don't recall the TiVo's actual sensitivity specs, but a full spectrum with no carrier much higher than -10dBmV and no carrier lower than -20dBmV should be fine.



johnhab said:


> 1) Given my attenuation guess above, does anyone know of a place on the net that sells 1 and/or 2db attenuators, or


It is not necessary to maintain levels that closely. a variation of +/- 5dB should not be significant if all levels are appropriate.



johnhab said:


> 2) In doing my testing I either get 29-30dB of S/N, which gets me fine reception on SD channels, but HD either doesn't tune at all or is pixelated, with signal strength of about 45.


There is no difference between SD carriers or their reception and HD carriers. Indeed, the most common deployment in CATV systems is 2 HD channels and 1 SD channel per QAM. It's possible your FIOS system might be putting all the HD channels on one set of carreirs and all the SD on another, however. With more than 130 carriers capable of handling more than 150HD channels and 750 SD channels simultaneously, at this point in time they can dedicate channels to one or the other if they so choose.



johnhab said:


> If I drop attenuation the smallest increment I can (22dB to 20dB), I then get 31-33dB S/N, signal strength jumps to 55-60, but then the box starts to choke (the background routines start to stutter, remote commands begin to not be acknowleged, etc.). Do I have any hope of getting a satisfactory result if I can change my attenuation by 1 or 2dB? My box seems extremely sensitive/to have a very narrow range in which it might work.


No, there's definitely something else going on. While it's true the large number of carriers greatly reduces the dynamic range of any receiver (by 22 dB for 133 carriers vs. 1 carrier, to be exact), the TiVo's dynamic range is much greater than that. Off the top of my head, I'm wanting to say the maximum input power to the unit is something like +13 or +16 dBmV, I think. Maybe someone else has the actual specs handy. For a perfectly flat spectrum of 133 carriers, that's a signal level of -9 or -6 dBmV for each carrier. I also don't recall the maximum sensitivity of the TiVo tuners, but it should definitely be something below -20d BmV.



johnhab said:


> 3) If I have Verizon come out and reduce the signal strength at their closet, will that help my cause as I won't have to attenuate the signal so much that I begin to lose reception completely? Most of the #s I've seen in this thread have been in the teens or lower, not 27dB.


Attenuation is attenuation. It doesn't make any difference where it happens, unless your system is susceptible to some sort of ingress signal. In that case, attenuation may not help at all, and in any case you are better served attenuating the signal at the receiver. Then only exception is if the ONT itself is producing large amounts of intermodulation products ecasue of levels being too high. Such is possible, but not likely unless the signal levels are close to or exceed 35 dBmV for any carrier or 50dBmV total.



johnhab said:


> 4) Also I notice that one cable card usually has a slightly lower S/N than the other, e.g., one will have 31 dB S/N, while the other has 30dB, and also the signal strengths differ by 3-6 (not sure of SS units). Is that normal? Should I ask Verizon for another set of possibly "better matched" cable cards?


The CableCards have nothing to do with signal levels or S/N. They do not receive the RF signals. They receive the demodulated signals from the tuners after passing through some number of logic stages. Noise in the tuner sections can and will produce errored bits in the digital signal stream, but the signal level and noise level of the digital bit stream is fixed by the internal circuitry and is not affected by any external signal.



johnhab said:


> 5) Sorry if this is stupid question, but when I went on SmartHome and bought the attenuators, one of the "customers who bought this also bought" items was a tilt compensator? Would that help in this case by "leveling" the attenuation across the frequency spectrum such that HD channels won't cut out when the right S/N is achieved?


One is not trying to obtain a "right" S/N level. The higher the S/N ration, the cleaner the signal, period. Unfortunately, while the S/N level in a system increases one-for-one with increasing signal levels, the 3rd order distortion increases 2 dB for every 1dB increase in signal level. Every signal transmission is a trade-off between S/N and distortion. Unfortunately, the distortion also increases with the number of carriers, so a very wideband spectrum must be transmitted and received at a much lower level than in a more narrow bandwidth system.

To answer your question, however, it depends on the actual signal levels with which you are dealing. The "tilt compensators" you saw mentioned are probably designed to attenuate the lower frequency carriers more than the high frequency carriers. This, to make up for cable loss in faqirly long cabe runs. It is likely, hgowever, the FIOS system may put out signals with a deliberate tilt, the high end in frequency also being higher in level than the lower end of the spectrum. If this is the case, then unless the signal passes through a fairly long run of cable, then probably not. Indeed, just the opposite may be the case, and if indeed the FIOS spec is for a 7 - 10 dB tilt from the low end to the high end, it may be necessary to run the signal through 100 feet or so of RG-6 to bring down the high end a bit.

The absolute optimum is for every carrier to have precisely the same signal level at the receiver, but in practice this is never the case. Things will work perfectly well, however, as long as no carrier is too much higher than any other. A good rule of thumb in a system like FIOS with up to 133 carriers is no carrier should be more than 7 dB higher than any other. In some cases this may mean adding a tilt compensator if the lowest chanels are too high or in the opposite case running the signal through a few dozen feet of extra RG-6.


----------



## lrhorer

wmcbrine said:


> ONT = Optical Network Terminal -- the big box on (probably) the outside of your house. This is where the laser is.


Um, well sort of. The upstream signals for broadband service and 2-way services are modulated into a LASER at the ONT, but the LASER which produces the signals for his TV reception is back at the headend.


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## lrhorer

webin said:


> Lowes stocks diplexers for $8.98, and F-Terminators for $2.97/4 or $5.97/10.


That's a 2.1Ghz diplexer. It won't help at all. You need a diplexer or Low Pass Filter with a cutoff around 900MHz. Much higher than that and it won't attenuate the MOCA carrier. Much lower and you'll lose some channels.


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## webin

lrhorer said:


> That's a 2.1Ghz diplexer. It won't help at all. You need a diplexer or Low Pass Filter with a cutoff around 900MHz.


You DID read the post where I said it didn't help, right? In all actuality, now that you bring it up, I'm not sure that the one I bought was 2.1ghz or 900mhz. If I did buy the 2.1ghz version, it's definitely an oversight on my part, but there's no real need to rehash it.


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## lrhorer

webin said:


> You DID read the post where I said it didn't help, right? In all actuality, now that you bring it up, I'm not sure that the one I bought was 2.1ghz or 900mhz. If I did buy the 2.1ghz version, it's definitely an oversight on my part, but there's no real need to rehash it.


Yes, I read it. My point was it never had a chance of helping. A 900MHz diplexer with the high pass port properly terminated, or an 850 - 1000MHz low pass filter will eliminate any spurious signals above 1000MHz (like the MOCA carrier). This in turn can help eliminate pixelization in the Tivo, but ony if the MOCA carrier is part of the problem being experienced by the user at hand.


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## Phantom Gremlin

lrhorer said:


> I don't recall the TiVo's actual sensitivity specs, but a full spectrum with no carrier much higher than -10dBmV and no carrier lower than -20dBmV should be fine.


Ha. Wishful thinking. The TiVo HD tuners are, in my opinion, a P.O.S. I define P.O.S. as meaning "far inferior to the tuners in cable company STBs". Just look at all the complaints. These forums would be far quieter if the tuners were up to snuff.

Personally, I only have anecdotal evidence of this. But in my case my TiVo HD was very flaky with input of -9dBmV, began working robustly when I added a +15dB amp. Of course, cable company boxes work fine in my house without needing distribution amps.

Unfortunately the only "signal strength meter" I have is the status page in my Motorola cable modem. So the great caveat with my single-data-point anecdote is that the signal strength of the Internet I receive is "about the same" as the video channels.


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## david(dallas)

I have had my TIVO w/cable card for over 1 month and I just started seeing this issue on a few local network channels. Problem doesn't exist on the Fiso receiver. My number if 37ish. 
My question is would this be my problem if it just started happening or would I have had this problem since day one. 
I guess I can try this fix and go from there.
If it doesn't fix it, what next, Call TIVO or Verison FISO?


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## webin

If you try the attenuators, and are unhappy with the results, I think your next step should be to contact verzion "fios", and ask if a tech could come out to help you troubleshoot.... make sure you know whether or not they will charge you a service fee for the visit.


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## Gregor

Noticed some 'weirdness' while doing some testing today.

I put the 4002IFD diplexer on yesterday and didn't notice much (if any) improvement while watching ABC yesterday, so this morning I took it off and decided to try a bunch of different attenuators and log the results



Code:


channel 514 (ABC, 519000kHz)

Att  SigStrn  SNR
0     90/100  36
20    50      28
10    86/90   34
16    68      31
13    77      32  
3     100      36

I then set the attenuation to 13 and started flipping through the HD channels.

When I got to channel 866, SHOWHDP (183000 kHz), it would not display. I could only get the channel to display at 0 or 3 attenuation, where the SS was 100 and the SNR 36.

Even at 6 attenuation, I get a black screen.

It's on the same tuner, and has a similar SS when unattenuated, so why won't the channel display at a similar attenuation?


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## sinanju

I had FiOS installed Thursday. I mentioned this issue to the installer and he left a handful of attenuators with me. Last night I noticed one of my SD channels pixelating. So I popped a 6dB on and all is right with the world. I'm not down to a S/N of 31dB... more like 34-35... but that one bad channel is now experiencing no errors.

I have none of their equipment except the CableCARDs and I insisted on using my own router, so there's no MOCA to deal with.

EDIT:

Not all is right with the world... more below...


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## Dmon4u

Yet another source for the Attenuators:

https://www.mcmelectronics.com/search.aspx?C=&K=Attenuator Pad

Promo Code EMC073 may get you another 10% off, last time I checked.


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## cuyahoga

sinanju said:


> I have none of their equipment except the CableCARDs and I insisted on using my own router, so there's no MOCA to deal with.


You were able to pull this off?

Its exactly what I'd like to do. The use of their router is what was holding me back from making the switch.

Any magic words I need to say in order to make this happen?


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## sinanju

cuyahoga said:


> Any magic words I need to say in order to make this happen?


"I'm not using your router; I don't need it because I have none of your equipment besides CableCARDs... nothing requires MOCA"

They'll have to reconfigure the ONT for ethernet, but it's perfectly doable.


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## webin

cuyahoga said:


> You were able to pull this off?
> 
> Its exactly what I'd like to do. The use of their router is what was holding me back from making the switch.
> 
> Any magic words I need to say in order to make this happen?


It sounds like you may be a bit of a technical guy (based on the fact you show disdain for the actiontec router). They provide their router for free, but if you have your own available and ready when the tech arrives (and you know how to access and configure it), I'm fairly certain the tech will let you and maybe help you get things up and running with your own equipment instead of theirs. It's also possible to make configuration changes yourself after the fact (you'll need to scrape these forums for posts about using your own router). You'll likely need to make a call to the Fiber Solutions Center with information (MAC address) of your router. This also assumes you have an ethernet cable running from the ONT to your router for ethernet, and coax from ONT to TV for... TV.

I was running my internet over moca for a while, but switched it to an existing ethernet cable (from an old pre-tv configuration). After plugging the ethernet into the ONT, I reset my router and called FSC. They turned moca off on the ONT and turned on ethernet, and I was up and running again. I could swap out their actiontec for my old linksys and make a similar call.

I'm rambling. Sorry about it.


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## cuyahoga

webin said:


> It sounds like you may be a bit of a technical guy (based on the fact you show disdain for the actiontec router)...
> 
> I'm rambling. Sorry about it.


No, feel free to ramble away! Both you and sinanju have very helpful ramblings.

So, the ONT will tie into my existing coax for the TiVOs and Verizon can be convinced to run CAT-5 (or whatever category ethernet they like) into my existing router from the ONT for network.

Nice.


----------



## sinanju

cuyahoga said:


> No, feel free to ramble away! Both you and sinanju have very helpful ramblings.
> 
> So, the ONT will tie into my existing coax for the TiVOs and Verizon can be convinced to run CAT-5 (or whatever category ethernet they like) into my existing router from the ONT for network.
> 
> Nice.


When I did a renovation, I had the electrician run power, coax, phone, and two CAT 5e ports to the space under my stairs. When I had Comcast and Vonage, the Vonage box pluged into the house phone wiring with a simple patch cable. The coax ran to the cable modem. The ethernet ports were connected to the router, also under the stairs, and ran to the office and the entertainment center for the TiVo.

Now that I have the ONT from FiOS, the phone patch cable runs from the house port to it instead of the Vonage box. The coax was turned around on the splitter in the cellar so the space under the stairs is the input to the system rather one of the outputs (since the cable modem is now out of business), and the ethernet comes directly from the ONT to the router.


----------



## sinanju

I'm getting corrected errors along with the occasional rash of uncorrected errors resulting in pixelation on the HD channels that share QAMs at 111, 117, and 123 MHz. On rare occasions 135 MHz experiences it, too. 123 is the most likely to lapse into pixelation. With the exception of the pixelation storms, the channels on 123 MHz seem to tick along at an average of 3 corrected errors/second with none uncorrected, though the count does not increment steadily.

The attenuation fix has already been applied -- the Verizon tech actually spent a while getting things just right. MOCA is not enabled on the ONT and I double-checked that the light is off. All other channels are rock solid. I've raised and lowered the temperature of the unit by a full degree on either side of the common operating temperature and it doesn't seem to be related.

Verizon is still looking into things, but I was curious to know if anyone else had an idea.


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## rocko

Here's a question. Do we actually know for a fact that enabling the ethernet port on the ONT prevents MoCA traffic on the coax feed? Or am I just making an assumption that it might work that way?

If the main reason to use the ethernet port on the ONT is to 86 the Craptiontec that's all well and good. I ask since I, and lots of other apparently, find MoCA to be a good thing seeing that we use NIMs to provide wired ethernet to locations where we don't/can't have CAT5/6 runs.

Others who are having problems with their S3's due to MoCA chatter might be interested as well - they might think that they're taking MoCA out of play by losing the Actiontec when in actuality the MoCA is still there.


----------



## sinanju

rocko said:


> Here's a question. Do we actually know for a fact that enabling the ethernet port on the ONT prevents MoCA traffic on the coax feed? Or am I just making an assumption that it might work that way?


I think that seeing the MoCA light out on the ONT is a good way to know it's dead.


----------



## rocko

sinanju said:


> I think that seeing the MoCA light out on the ONT is a good way to know it's dead.


And is your (or anyone's) MoCA light out ?


----------



## webin

rocko said:


> And is your (or anyone's) MoCA light out ?


My moca light is out because I specifically set up the ethernet connection to provide internet service, called Verizon, and had the Moca turned off. I also disconnected the run of coax that was going to my actiontec.

It had no noticeable influence on my pixellation.


----------



## substance12

I started noticing additional pixelation and audio drop outs (randomly of course) since the fios HD channel realignment. anyways, I started paying more attention to the diagnostics page and it seems (from my brief observations) that tuner 0 has all the uncorrected and corrected errors while tuner 1 has almost none. 

1) is this normal?
2) I have uncorrected and corrected errors in the 10-100 thousand range. is this also normal. Do those numbers ever work their way down to zero or does it just accumulate? And I don't necessarily get any pixelation/audio drop outs when it is in this range. Sort of random really.


----------



## sinanju

rocko said:


> And is your (or anyone's) MoCA light out ?


Yes


----------



## sinanju

substance12 said:


> I started noticing additional pixelation and audio drop outs (randomly of course) since the fios HD channel realignment.
> 
> 1) is this normal?


No



substance12 said:


> 2) I have uncorrected and corrected errors in the 10-100 thousand range. is this also normal. Do those numbers ever work their way down to zero or does it just accumulate? And I don't necessarily get any pixelation/audio drop outs when it is in this range. Sort of random really.


They are a running count. The count resets when the channel is changed.

Call Verizon. Complain. My theory is that the grand FiOS realignment opened up frequencies that were unused, previously. Those that experienced relief with attenuation under the old scheme may find channels have appeared on or been moved to frequencies with power levels too high or low.

A little bird had informed me that Verizon isn't all that interested in working with TiVo to figure out what's going on and fix it. If there is no way to get a completely usable lineup, and Verizon isn't interested in providing one or working with TiVo to achieve one, I may just end up going back to Comcast.


----------



## richsadams

sinanju said:


> A little bird had informed me that Verizon isn't all that interested in working with TiVo to figure out what's going on and fix it. If there is no way to get a completely usable lineup, and Verizon isn't interested in providing one or working with TiVo to achieve one, I may just end up going back to Comcast.


Interesting. I really want to switch to FIOS. VZ installed all of the lines on our street and apparently they've finally started connecting people up so I almost made the call. But it's posts like these that still have me on the fence.


----------



## sinanju

richsadams said:


> Interesting. I really want to switch to FIOS. VZ installed all of the lines on our street and apparently they've finally started connecting people up so I almost made the call. But it's posts like these that still have me on the fence.


Well, I just got off the line with Verizon and they're escalating... so I will finally stop seeing trucks with all of their pretty attenuators.

I just discussed this with my wife... my plan was to torture Verizon until they either figured something out or one of us gave up. She wants to stick with them since only one of the unusable channels is one we watch and not that frequently... plus, there's an SD equivalent, which for that content is ok. Channels we do watch look very much better than they did on Comcast, since FiOS doesn't need to do the stupid 3 HD channels/QAM thing Comcast does.

So, it's your call. I understand your trepidation, though.


----------



## JacksTiVo

As I posted on another thread, my pixelation & audio stuttering was caused by a bad eSATA cable connection on the My DVR Expander. If you have an eSATA connected hard drive on your S3 or HD TiVo and are willing to lose what is recorded on it, then try removing it and see if that corrects the problem you are having. (Disconnect via the TiVo instructions, don't just unplug it.)

BTW, for what it is worth, Verizon's tech support and field techs have been very responsive and well trained. They see very few TiVo units so they do not have much experience with them. My prior cable provider also had little knowledge about TiVo.


----------



## sinanju

JacksTiVo said:


> As I posted on another thread, my pixelation & audio stuttering was caused by a bad eSATA cable connection on the My DVR Expander.


No storage expander here.


----------



## FiosUser

Just thought I would report that today I got a diplexer from Home Depot (the only one they have, which was $9+)

I removed all my attenuators and put the diplexer in and all my pixelation is gone. The picture is better now too.

I put the cable from the wall going into the OUT of the diplexer (the side with only one opening) and then put a line to the Tivo from the ANT (not satellite) end of the diplexer.

Happy FIOS'ing!


----------



## Ziggy86

Keep us updated.

Steven



FiosUser said:


> Just thought I would report that today I got a diplexer from Home Depot (the only one they have, which was $9+)
> 
> I removed all my attenuators and put the diplexer in and all my pixelation is gone. The picture is better now too.
> 
> I put the cable from the wall going into the OUT of the diplexer (the side with only one opening) and then put a line to the Tivo from the ANT (not satellite) end of the diplexer.
> 
> Happy FIOS'ing!


----------



## exdishguy

FiosUser said:


> Just thought I would report that today I got a diplexer from Home Depot (the only one they have, which was $9+)
> 
> I removed all my attenuators and put the diplexer in and all my pixelation is gone. The picture is better now too.
> 
> I put the cable from the wall going into the OUT of the diplexer (the side with only one opening) and then put a line to the Tivo from the ANT (not satellite) end of the diplexer.
> 
> Happy FIOS'ing!


What diplexer did you buy? I can't see any on their web site.

I've tried the attenuators and it has helped. But I still get some pixelation. The Fios tech left me a low pass filter to try but that didn't work either.


----------



## Gregor

FiosUser said:


> Just thought I would report that today I got a diplexer from Home Depot (the only one they have, which was $9+)
> 
> I removed all my attenuators and put the diplexer in and all my pixelation is gone. The picture is better now too.
> 
> I put the cable from the wall going into the OUT of the diplexer (the side with only one opening) and then put a line to the Tivo from the ANT (not satellite) end of the diplexer.
> 
> Happy FIOS'ing!


Why did you hook it up that way?


----------



## FiosUser

exdishguy said:


> What diplexer did you buy? I can't see any on their web site.
> 
> I've tried the attenuators and it has helped. But I still get some pixelation. The Fios tech left me a low pass filter to try but that didn't work either.


Still going strong. No pixelation whatsoever.

Ha ha, as if that store would actually have something on its website!

Sorry, there was not a brand or anything. It just said "Diplexer" on the package (just another cheap A POS).

You'll have to actually go there for this I guess (if you can).


----------



## substance12

I've started to get pixelation after the channel realignment. Of the channels I watch I seem to experience it mostly on FLN 166 and disc HD. I checked out the diagnostics on FLN and SNR was around 31, signal str was wack, etc. I'm not sure attenuation is the solution here.


----------



## SeanC

I've been playing with attenuation ever since I got FIOS with moderate success, meaning I was able to get the pixelation down to minor events where I could still hear and see what was happening, as opposed to losing whole chunks of programming.

I started with 10dB, then moved to 16, then 20, then 19. Then FIOS came out and added a low pass filter so I took of the attenuators off, but the pixelation came back, so I put 10 on, but I was still getting significant pixelation so I just went to 13, which seems to be working well.

I really want to try out the diplexer, though, I gotta get one.


----------



## sinanju

My report has gone to the Chronic Resolutions Team in Providence. The original trouble ticket is closed, but presumably "Tony" has the issue as one of his to-dos.

If anyone else is still experiencing pixelation after applying the attenuation fix, I'd suggest you keep on them -- perhaps we can achieve some sort of critical mass to get them focused.

I'd especially look at lower QAM frequencies... in my case, I have consistent pixelation on 123, 117, and 111MHz. It appears that the attenuation fix might have worked for them, but the signal is not stable enough -- signal strength is highly variable, as is the SNR, with occasional crashes to 0. You'll only be able to find out what channels are on what frequencies by going to the TiVo's diagnostics screen, hitting the Live TV button, finding the channel, left arrow back to the diagnostics screen, hit Live TV, channel up, left arrow, repeat ad nauseum.

If you are in New England, the lower frequencies I mentioned map as follows:


*111MHz* 622 (Science HD), 630 (Animal Planet HD)
*117MHz* 585 (Big 10 HD), 625 (Smithsonian HD)
*123MHz* 628 (History HD), 639 (TLC HD)

If I reduce the attenuation, that seems to fix those lower frequencies by making the bottom end of the range of instability still high enough to avoid uncorrectable errors, but at the expense of blowing out all of the other channels.


----------



## substance12

has anyone ever had pixelation and audio drop outs but for only 1 show? I need to test this more thoroughly but Iron Chef on FLN almost always pixelates/audio drop outs on me. I briefly checked out FLN at another time and the diagnostics showed the signal strength going back and forth as it did with Iron Chef... but the show still played fine.

I've already called up fios and they reset my cable cards, which I'm not sure if that did anything at all. For me this all started happening after the channel realignment. Only previous incident was with the olympics.


----------



## sinanju

substance12 said:


> has anyone ever had pixelation and audio drop outs but for only 1 show? I need to test this more thoroughly but Iron Chef on FLN almost always pixelates/audio drop outs on me. I briefly checked out FLN at another time and the diagnostics showed the signal strength going back and forth as it did with Iron Chef... but the show still played fine.
> 
> I've already called up fios and they reset my cable cards, which I'm not sure if that did anything at all. For me this all started happening after the channel realignment. Only previous incident was with the olympics.


Have you ever seen it live? Have you checked the RS numbers when it happens? It could be the feed from the network to Verizon.


----------



## substance12

sinanju said:


> Have you ever seen it live? Have you checked the RS numbers when it happens? It could be the feed from the network to Verizon.


I've seen it live. what i need to test out is to watch the program 20 mins before IC comes on, the program itself, and 20mins after.

There are RS numbers though I cannot remember what they were. Is there an acceptable RS corrected or uncorrected number? I was watching some program last night that had 100 corrected and it was just staying there.... no pixelation whatsoever.


----------



## sinanju

substance12 said:


> I've seen it live. what i need to test out is to watch the program 20 mins before IC comes on, the program itself, and 20mins after.
> 
> There are RS numbers though I cannot remember what they were. Is there an acceptable RS corrected or uncorrected number? I was watching some program last night that had 100 corrected and it was just staying there.... no pixelation whatsoever.


You won't see corrected errors. Small numbers of uncorrected errors may be unnoticeable. If you're seeing glitches and the uncorrected number is 0, then the glitches are actually being broadcast.

In the test you describe, I think the counter will reset at the beginning and the end of the recording... you may want to keep that in mind. You'll be able to tell by looking at how long the TiVo has been tuned to the channel. That would reset with the RS counters.


----------



## sinanju

substance12 said:


> I need to test this more thoroughly but Iron Chef on FLN almost always pixelates/audio drop outs on me.


I'm recording Top Chef on FLN right now ("Octopus" @ 11pm Eastern on 11/6). I'll let you know if I see anything.


----------



## sinanju

sinanju said:


> I'm recording Top Chef on FLN right now ("Octopus" @ 11pm Eastern on 11/6). I'll let you know if I see anything.


There were ~12500 errors, 90% of which were corrected. The rest occurred in two stretches of about 1.5 seconds each that showed some tearing.

And, to confirm my previous postulate, though the channel remained the same, the counters reset when the recording was over.

EDIT: ... and there were 0 errors of either stripe in the next 30 minutes.


----------



## ilh

sinanju said:


> My report has gone to the Chronic Resolutions Team in Providence. The original trouble ticket is closed, but presumably "Tony" has the issue as one of his to-dos.
> 
> If anyone else is still experiencing pixelation after applying the attenuation fix, I'd suggest you keep on them -- perhaps we can achieve some sort of critical mass to get them focused.
> 
> I'd especially look at lower QAM frequencies... in my case, I have consistent pixelation on 123, 117, and 111MHz. It appears that the attenuation fix might have worked for them, but the signal is not stable enough -- signal strength is highly variable, as is the SNR, with occasional crashes to 0. You'll only be able to find out what channels are on what frequencies by going to the TiVo's diagnostics screen, hitting the Live TV button, finding the channel, left arrow back to the diagnostics screen, hit Live TV, channel up, left arrow, repeat ad nauseum.
> 
> If you are in New England, the lower frequencies I mentioned map as follows:
> 
> 
> *111MHz* 622 (Science HD), 630 (Animal Planet HD)
> *117MHz* 585 (Big 10 HD), 625 (Smithsonian HD)
> *123MHz* 628 (History HD), 639 (TLC HD)
> 
> If I reduce the attenuation, that seems to fix those lower frequencies by making the bottom end of the range of instability still high enough to avoid uncorrectable errors, but at the expense of blowing out all of the other channels.


This exactly matches my experience, except I would add 600 (CNN HD), can't remember its QAM but it was low too, perhaps 127MHz.

I gave up calling Verizon. I have my attenuation such that I am mostly OK, but I really wish they would clear up their apparent signal strength variation in those low QAMs. It can be fine for an hour or two and then signal strength drops and it is completely unwatchable for 15 minutes.

--Lee


----------



## substance12

sinanju said:


> There were ~12500 errors, 90% of which were corrected. The rest occurred in two stretches of about 1.5 seconds each that showed some tearing.
> 
> And, to confirm my previous postulate, though the channel remained the same, the counters reset when the recording was over.
> 
> EDIT: ... and there were 0 errors of either stripe in the next 30 minutes.


I turned on FLN the other night and I was getting the pixelation/audio drop out (some random show, not iron chef). So that throws out the idea that it's that particular show.

I called up FSC and the guy could not resolve my issue and raised it to a higher tech support level. I'm supposed to get a call on monday.


----------



## sinanju

ilh said:


> This exactly matches my experience, except I would add 600 (CNN HD), can't remember its QAM but it was low too, perhaps 127MHz.
> 
> I gave up calling Verizon. I have my attenuation such that I am mostly OK, but I really wish they would clear up their apparent signal strength variation in those low QAMs. It can be fine for an hour or two and then signal strength drops and it is completely unwatchable for 15 minutes.
> 
> --Lee


For me, CNN HD is on 231 MHz. It took a long time to figure out the right combo of attenuators to get the problem down to where it is now -- the techs don't trust them, claiming the numbers on them are rough estimates.

How did they close out your ticket? Were you sent to Chronic Resolutions or do they think it's fixed. If the latter, I would encourage you to keep pressing them. It's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease and right now, it would appear the squeak is not loud enough.


----------



## sinanju

substance12 said:


> I turned on FLN the other night and I was getting the pixelation/audio drop out (some random show, not iron chef). So that throws out the idea that it's that particular show.
> 
> I called up FSC and the guy could not resolve my issue and raised it to a higher tech support level. I'm supposed to get a call on monday.


I noticed afterward that FLN had random moments of pixelation myself... I just hadn't updated my posting.

*sigh*


----------



## pxc0

The attentuation fix solved the problem for me on both of my Tivo HD boxes. Used a -20 db attentuator on each and have experienced no pixelation issues in over a week.


----------



## substance12

if I have signal strength that is going between 50-100 (on my problem channels)... it doesn't seem to me that attenuation would be the fix for this scenario. anyone care to comment?


----------



## V7Goose

I personally don't believe attenuating the signal is ever the correct answer, ESPECIALLY if it drops the signal strength below 90. I know that sometimes it seems to clear up a problem, but it is just masking things. 

For example, when I first got my S3 a couple of years ago I had big problems on some channels. I also had LOTS of devices connected to my cable (a 6-way splitter and another 4-way off of that on just the drop where the TiVo was, plus multiple splitters on drops in other rooms. All those splitters and connected devices cause a lot of attenuation, so I suspected the problem was weak signal. I bought a cheap booster at the hardware store and tried it out. During lots of playing around and testing with different configurations, I happened to notice that the bad channels seemed to clear up at one point where I had the booster in line but UNPLUGGED. When not powered, the booster acts like a massive attenuator, so this really surprised me. Further checking showed that although the bad channels had gotten better, most of the previously GOOD channels now had very low signal strength and new problems. In the end, all the problems proved to be with the incoming signal and were fixed by the provider when I pushed them to provide decent service.

I also wanted to remind everyone that pixelation or other signal problems do not always come from the TiVo. It sure seems easy to blame TiVo, but you have to watch other devices and signal sources a lot to get a good comparison. When I am at home I am watching a TiVo device 99.99% of the time, so when I see the occasional program that pixelates a lot I tend to assume it is another friggin FiOS/TiVo issue. But I have the same cable that feeds my S3 connected to my Sony plasma TV without cable cards. That TV has digital tuners, so it gets most of the non-premium channels. The other night when the TiVo was busy on both tuners I switched over to the straight cable feed in the TV to watch a different channel, and I occasionally saw some of the same pixelation issues that we usually attribute to the TiVo. In this case there could be no doubt that the problem was being broadcast instead of being caused by either the TiVo or a cable-card.

I occasionally travel a lot, and when away from home I get to watch lots of different cable providers without TiVo or cable boxes, and I often see pixelation issues, proving that the signal problem is not unique to FiOS. I am certainly not trying to say that all, or even most of the PQ problems we see are are outside the TiVo, but some of them are. Don't be too quick to judge.

Another PQ issue that is often blamed on TiVo is the loss of detail in very fast moving scenes in HD. I can say with confidence from repeated comparisons that this problem is NOT TiVo. I see the same loss of detail on direct-connected HD TVs, both at home and in other locations.


----------



## sinanju

V7Goose said:


> I personally don't believe attenuating the signal is ever the correct answer, ESPECIALLY if it drops the signal strength below 90. I know that sometimes it seems to clear up a problem, but it is just masking things.


Verizon has issued a technical bulletin to their field techs telling them to attenuate exactly as described in the subject of the original posting in this thread.



V7Goose said:


> For example, when I first got my S3 a couple of years ago I had big problems on some channels. I also had LOTS of devices connected to my cable (a 6-way splitter and another 4-way off of that on just the drop where the TiVo was, plus multiple splitters on drops in other rooms. All those splitters and connected devices cause a lot of attenuation, so I suspected the problem was weak signal.


A six-way splitter and an additional -12 dB of attenuation was required just to get the signal in my house *down* to where most channels are just above a 90 signal strength.



V7Goose said:


> I bought a cheap booster at the hardware store and tried it out. During lots of playing around and testing with different configurations, I happened to notice that the bad channels seemed to clear up at one point where I had the booster in line but UNPLUGGED. When not powered, the booster acts like a massive attenuator, so this really surprised me. Further checking showed that although the bad channels had gotten better, most of the previously GOOD channels now had very low signal strength and new problems. In the end, all the problems proved to be with the incoming signal and were fixed by the provider when I pushed them to provide decent service.


Glad that worked out for you. However, something else is going on here. Both Verizon and TiVo know it. As I mentioned, Verizon has forwarded my problem to a chronic issue department and TiVo closed my bug report as a duplicate of one they're already working on.



V7Goose said:


> I also wanted to remind everyone that pixelation or other signal problems do not always come from the TiVo. It sure seems easy to blame TiVo, but you have to watch other devices and signal sources a lot to get a good comparison. When I am at home I am watching a TiVo device 99.99% of the time, so when I see the occasional program that pixelates a lot I tend to assume it is another friggin FiOS/TiVo issue. But I have the same cable that feeds my S3 connected to my Sony plasma TV without cable cards. That TV has digital tuners, so it gets most of the non-premium channels. The other night when the TiVo was busy on both tuners I switched over to the straight cable feed in the TV to watch a different channel, and I occasionally saw some of the same pixelation issues that we usually attribute to the TiVo. In this case there could be no doubt that the problem was being broadcast instead of being caused by either the TiVo or a cable-card.


Yes, pixellation can be caused by other things, but we're referring to pixellation actually reported as RS-uncorrected errors. Pixellation caused by problems between, for example, FiOS and the broadcaster very likely won't appear as uncorrected errors. The pixellation would be sent to the subscriber as if it were a proper picture.



V7Goose said:


> I occasionally travel a lot, and when away from home I get to watch lots of different cable providers without TiVo or cable boxes, and I often see pixelation issues, proving that the signal problem is not unique to FiOS. I am certainly not trying to say that all, or even most of the PQ problems we see are are outside the TiVo, but some of them are. Don't be too quick to judge.


Other services sometimes suck, too. Good to know.



V7Goose said:


> Another PQ issue that is often blamed on TiVo is the loss of detail in very fast moving scenes in HD. I can say with confidence from repeated comparisons that this problem is NOT TiVo. I see the same loss of detail on direct-connected HD TVs, both at home and in other locations.


Yes, we know about bandwidth limitations, too. Have a look at the conversations in this forum related to Comcast squeezing 3 HD channels into 1 QAM and you'll see how much we know about it.


----------



## substance12

just had a fios tech come out. He did the usual line test to see if any hardware was bad... none of it was.

end result is that disc hd and ktla HD are horrible. disc hd has wild fluxuations in signal strength and ktla hd 505 is just pixelated to hell but has 100&#37; sig strength 38snr.

he played around with various attentuators. i know the fios techs know this by now. 

briefly checking FLN 166 and national geo HD 621... these seemed ok. /crosses fingers

the main piece of news I want to share is that the tech told me that ever since the channel realignment, other customers with tivos have been having problems. so I'm not alone in this. they suggested I call tivo and see what they have to say. Swapping out cable cards was an option thrown out there but he didn't have any on him. He also was not aware of the M-cards.

update1: fln and 621 still affected though it seemed not as bad. 505 cleared up (wierd).


----------



## V7Goose

sinanju said:


> Verizon has issued a technical bulletin to their field techs telling them to attenuate exactly as described in the subject of the original posting in this thread.
> 
> etc. etc. etc.


Glad you are so sure of yourself. I got my problems fixed. Hope you can do the same.


----------



## sinanju

V7Goose said:


> Glad you are so sure of yourself. I got my problems fixed. Hope you can do the same.


I've got a copy of the bulletin on my desk. I'd be happy to scan it for you and post it, if you find it so hard believe.


----------



## subgenius37

So I had some Tivo HD Pixelation problems with FiOS, I have 2 Tivo HDs and I was having problems on both so I knew it wasn't just the tivo box. I tried the attenuators, that Verizon provided, to dampen the signal and that helped some but didn't really fix it. I had Comcast before with multi-streaming cards and never had a problem. Just so you know FiOS has multi-streaming cards, they may not have a number in there systems and the techs may not know about them but if you are insistent you can get them. It took me two tries and I finally got some. That didn't fix my problem either. But it was cheaper so that was a plus. So what finally fixed my problem was two diplexers http://www.beachaudio.com/Dynaflex/S-252-p-70205.html 2 bucks a piece. Basically I have a MOCHA based FiOS router for my internet and the internet signal was bleeding into the TV signal and TIVO couldn't process it. Oddly enough you plug the wall end into the "out" (or end with only 1 side), and the tivo end into antenna end. What does it do, it acts as a filter and strips out the signal issues. Added plus, I don't need the attenuators anymore! I have NO problem watching a 37-38 DB signal at 100% strength. Verizon didn't know what the heck they are/were so I had to buy them myself. I saw the tip on this thread, thanks for the help. BTW You may be interested to know that some pixelation problem maybe coming from the single stream cards, I know that lots of people had problems with them at Comcast. I can't verify they actually did anything in my case other than make things cheaper per month (3.99 x 2 cards instead of 3.99 x 4 cards). However if the 2 dollar diplexers don't help then you may consider trying the multistreaming cards.


----------



## webin

sinanju said:


> I've got a copy of the bulletin on my desk. I'd be happy to scan it for you and post it, if you find it so hard believe.


Dude, chill out a little. What V7Goose is trying to say is that attenuators, which are the most common "solution" to pixellation doesn't really solve the issue. They only dampen the issue. Attenuators do nothing to fix the overly hot signal put out by the OTN, they do nothing to fix TiVos low-quality tuner cards, and they do nothing to "clean the cards" at the Verizon head-end (which is what V7Goose got them to do for his pixellation).

Everyone, consumers and FiOS techs, know about attenuators as a work-around. What V7Goose is advocating is a more complete set of solutions that actually fix the problems instead of mitigate them. There's no reason to jump on his case.


----------



## SeanC

subgenius37 said:


> So what finally fixed my problem was two diplexers at 2 bucks a piece.


Thanks for the link. I've been trying to buy a diplexer for a few weeks but I haven't found one locally.


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## Thos19

subgenius37 said:


> Just so you know FiOS has multi-streaming cards, they may not have a number in there systems and the techs may not know about them but if you are insistent you can get them. It took me two tries and I finally got some.


I'd like to get and M-card for my Series 3, if for nothing else than to reduce my bill. Can you tell us a little more how you were able to get Fios to give you one (I've had no luck)? Did they require a tech visit?

Thos.


----------



## wmcbrine

Thos, the S3 doesn't support M cards yet (well, not in M mode, anyway -- the point is, you still need two).


----------



## exdishguy

subgenius37 said:


> So I had some Tivo HD Pixelation problems with FiOS, I have 2 Tivo HDs and I was having problems on both so I knew it wasn't just the tivo box. I tried the attenuators, that Verizon provided, to dampen the signal and that helped some but didn't really fix it. I had Comcast before with multi-streaming cards and never had a problem. Just so you know FiOS has multi-streaming cards, they may not have a number in there systems and the techs may not know about them but if you are insistent you can get them. It took me two tries and I finally got some. That didn't fix my problem either. But it was cheaper so that was a plus. So what finally fixed my problem was two diplexers http://www.beachaudio.com/Dynaflex/S-252-p-70205.html 2 bucks a piece. Basically I have a MOCHA based FiOS router for my internet and the internet signal was bleeding into the TV signal and TIVO couldn't process it. Oddly enough you plug the wall end into the "out" (or end with only 1 side), and the tivo end into antenna end. What does it do, it acts as a filter and strips out the signal issues. Added plus, I don't need the attenuators anymore! I have NO problem watching a 37-38 DB signal at 100% strength. Verizon didn't know what the heck they are/were so I had to buy them myself. I saw the tip on this thread, thanks for the help. BTW You may be interested to know that some pixelation problem maybe coming from the single stream cards, I know that lots of people had problems with them at Comcast. I can't verify they actually did anything in my case other than make things cheaper per month (3.99 x 2 cards instead of 3.99 x 4 cards). However if the 2 dollar diplexers don't help then you may consider trying the multistreaming cards.


I'm not sure how the heck this works but I'll try anything at this point. Wouldn't this be the same as using a low-pass filter? I've tried a low-pass filter and numerous amounts of attenuation and while I can reduce the pixelation, it still happens.

In any event, you say that you ran the feed from the ONT (the wall) into the single input on the diplexer and then I assume you used the left side/antenna side to output to the Tivo HD?


----------



## Ziggy86

exdishguy said:


> I'm not sure how the heck this works but I'll try anything at this point. Wouldn't this be the same as using a low-pass filter? I've tried a low-pass filter and numerous amounts of attenuation and while I can reduce the pixelation, it still happens.
> 
> In any event, you say that you ran the feed from the ONT (the wall) into the single input on the diplexer and then I assume you used the left side/antenna side to output to the Tivo HD?


Could a picture be posted?


----------



## subgenius37

Thos19 said:


> I'd like to get and M-card for my Series 3, if for nothing else than to reduce my bill. Can you tell us a little more how you were able to get Fios to give you one (I've had no luck)? Did they require a tech visit?
> 
> Thos.


So I called the FiOS support line. Contacted the "customer support"/"order new service". I was still having pixelation problems so I asked them if I could get a tech to come out and replace my cards with Multi-streaming cards. They said they only had one SKU in the system for cards. I assured them that I knew that they had them and that on the official Verizon Fios forum people had indicated they had received them as long ago as August. So the customer support rep sent out a tech to fix my problem with these new multi-streaming cards and added a ton of notes on what to bring. He shows up with single streaming cards, he didn't get the notes. So he called his boss had a little back and forth then drove across town to pick up the multi-streaming cards. Came back and installed them no problem (well as little problem as cable cards usually cause techs). So just being persistent worked. Very few people (senior tech only) even knew they had them. No one in the call center in any category knew they existed. I think the persistence point needs to come with the local office as they actually have the inventory, but that's just a guess based on my experience.

- James


----------



## subgenius37

exdishguy said:


> I'm not sure how the heck this works but I'll try anything at this point. Wouldn't this be the same as using a low-pass filter? I've tried a low-pass filter and numerous amounts of attenuation and while I can reduce the pixelation, it still happens.
> 
> In any event, you say that you ran the feed from the ONT (the wall) into the single input on the diplexer and then I assume you used the left side/antenna side to output to the Tivo HD?


Correct, that is how i have it setup. Pixelation is a result of many different things. I actually believe I needed two fixes the multi-streaming card and the diplexer. I know this will sound weird but the pixelation had a slightly different look to it once I got the multi-streaming card. Hard to describe but the pixelation pattern looked different. Perhaps too much time playing video games. At any rate I think I have a test that may help determine if a diplexer would help, but I only have one sample set (me).

A test to see if a diplexer would help would be to check to see if there is a direct correlation to increased pixelation and increased internet traffic. Start a large download and/or anything that would increase network traffic, then check the RS Corrections/Uncorrected numbers and/or just the visable pixelation. I was able to find a direct correlation between the two. My wife and I would both be on the internet streaming video or doing anything traffic intensive and boom tons of pixelation. Practically halt traffic and the attenuators did there job no problem, very LOW RS corrections and uncorrected numbers and no visible pixelation.

Hope this helps.


----------



## subgenius37

Ziggy86 said:


> Could a picture be posted?


I'll try to post a picture of the diplexer setup later today.


----------



## substance12

subgenius37 said:


> Correct, that is how i have it setup. Pixelation is a result of many different things. I actually believe I needed two fixes the multi-streaming card and the diplexer. I know this will sound weird but the pixelation had a slightly different look to it once I got the multi-streaming card. Hard to describe but the pixelation pattern looked different. Perhaps too much time playing video games. At any rate I think I have a test that may help determine if a diplexer would help, but I only have one sample set (me).


I was under the impression that the diplexer fixed your problem... now I'm reading that you actually needed the M-card as well and that you still have pixelation? or are you saying that without the diplxer, there is a difference between the pixlation using the S and M cards?

I don't think you're the only sample. I've come across a few random posts that people have reported this working. there's also a post where the user said he/she got the fios tech to put a LPF at the ONT.


----------



## subgenius37

substance12 said:


> I was under the impression that the diplexer fixed your problem... now I'm reading that you actually needed the M-card as well and that you still have pixelation? or are you saying that without the diplxer, there is a difference between the pixlation using the S and M cards?
> 
> I don't think you're the only sample. I've come across a few random posts that people have reported this working. there's also a post where the user said he/she got the fios tech to put a LPF at the ONT.


Correct the diplexer fixed the problem. Multi-streaming did not totally remove pixelation. I was trying to indicate that I thought I saw a difference between S and M and that it possibly could have been a factor.

I am suggesting that if the diplexer doesn't fix the problem it may also need a multi-streaming card. I also know people that had Comcast had problems with their single streaming cards and that the multi-streaming cards cleared up their problem. Also Comcast and Verizon use the same brand/model of cablecards, Motorola. My original hope was that this alone would fix my problem, it didn't. The diplexer did. Because I can't try the diplexer with a single streaming card I can't say either way if the cable card was a factor in my fix, but it is part of my setup.


----------



## Ziggy86

subgenius37 said:


> I'll try to post a picture of the diplexer setup later today.


Thanks


----------



## subgenius37

Images as promised. 
The first picture shows the diplexer configuration. The black coax is coming from the wall and the white is going to the tivo HD box.



The second is of the DVR diagnostic screen showing a DB strength of 38 and 0 RS corrected and 0 RS uncorrected



Hope this helps.


----------



## exdishguy

subgenius37 said:


> Images as promised.
> The first picture shows the diplexer configuration. The black coax is coming from the wall and the white is going to the tivo HD box.
> 
> 
> 
> The second is of the DVR diagnostic screen showing a DB strength of 38 and 0 RS corrected and 0 RS uncorrected
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this helps.


Well the good news is that I have zero RS uncorrected and corrected errors (well I had maybe 8 on one channel over 10 minutes).

The bad news is that my local HD channels no longer work! (and I don't mean OTA HD...my Fios HD locals) I had to catch a last minute flight so I didn't have time to further investigate.

subgenius37, can you verify each of your channels to insure they are ALL coming in? This looks very promising but I suspect the diplexer is filtering out a portion of the band that my local HD channels are on.


----------



## substance12

what frequency are your local HD channels on? technically the diplexer should only filter those channels out if they are outside the frequency range. what is it? 860ish Mhz on the high end and 5Mhz on the low?


----------



## exdishguy

substance12 said:


> what frequency are your local HD channels on? technically the diplexer should only filter those channels out if they are outside the frequency range. what is it? 860ish Mhz on the high end and 5Mhz on the low?


Dunno until I get home. The channel numbers are 502, 504, 507...in that range. But I didn't have a lot of time to play around with it and I had to hurry to reconnect the attenuators so my wife can watch TV while I'm out of town. I did check 77 MSG, 190 COM, and 250 (some cartoon channel...not sure which one) as they were all my problem channels. I also checked the SD locals on 2, 4, 7 as well as HBO on 899....life was good. But again, I had no signal at all on 502, etc.

I think this may help to further pinpoint the problem and to give my Fios tech something to work with. I'll reconnect it all up again on Sunday and give see what happens before I call them out again. Argghhh...


----------



## Ziggy86

Why do you have 2 black wires coming from the wall?



exdishguy said:


> Well the good news is that I have zero RS uncorrected and corrected errors (well I had maybe 8 on one channel over 10 minutes).
> 
> The bad news is that my local HD channels no longer work! (and I don't mean OTA HD...my Fios HD locals) I had to catch a last minute flight so I didn't have time to further investigate.
> 
> subgenius37, can you verify each of your channels to insure they are ALL coming in? This looks very promising but I suspect the diplexer is filtering out a portion of the band that my local HD channels are on.


----------



## richsadams

Ziggy86 said:


> Why do you have 2 black wires coming from the wall?


Optical illusion...there's only one coax coming from the wall which loops around to the diplexer in the OP's picture.


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## subgenius37

richsadams said:


> Optical illusion...there's only one coax coming from the wall which loops around to the diplexer in the OP's picture.


Correct. I couldn't bend the black coax tight enough to have it all fit in the frame. Btw if you're looking for good cheap coax cable of any length monoprice.com seems to have the best deals.


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## subgenius37

substance12 said:


> what frequency are your local HD channels on? technically the diplexer should only filter those channels out if they are outside the frequency range. what is it? 860ish Mhz on the high end and 5Mhz on the low?


Honestly I'm not sure. I seem to get all the same channels I used to 2 through 800. I'm not sure if channel number relates to frequency though.


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## sinanju

subgenius37 said:


> Honestly I'm not sure. I seem to get all the same channels I used to 2 through 800. I'm not sure if channel number relates to frequency though.


You can see what frequency a channel is on by looking at the diagnostics screen while you are tuned to that channel.


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## exdishguy

sinanju said:


> You can see what frequency a channel is on by looking at the diagnostics screen while you are tuned to that channel.


Just got back in town and checked some of the local HD channels. Channel 502 is on 507000KHz and channel 504 is at 513000KHz. Why they aren't showing up with the diplexer is beyond me. The diplexer basically acts as a low pass filter only passing 5-860MHz. Well Verizon gave me a low pass filter that is 5-860MHz and it passes the channels, but I see tons of RS uncorrected errors. With the diplexer, I see no RS errors, yet I cannot see the local HD channels.....friggin' bizarre and frustrating.

I'll try the diplexer again tomorrow and report back. Maybe I'll wait a bit to see if the local HD channels show up after 15 minutes or so....dunno.


----------



## ehagberg

So I've got FIOS with two S-cards (M-cards weren't available when they did my install or so they claimed) and a Tivo HD, which usually works fine, but I'd been noticing pixellation on a few channels, so I started surfing my HD channels and checking their frequencies to see if there was a pattern with pixellation/errors reported by the tivo diagnostic screen and the frequency.

Last night around 9 or 10pm I found that channels on 111, 117 and 123MHz were flaking out, but my wife didn't want to bother checking the rest of the channels (we've really only noticed it on HD ones, btw) so I waited until this morning and started checking things again. Strangely enough, the channels on the bad frequencies last night are having no problems whatsoever this morning, but now a different range of frequencies and channels has gone haywire: 327, 339 and 345MHz.

I do have a diplexer in place as many others have reported using one to filter out signals from the ONT/Actiontec router, but even removing that doesn't affect what I'm seeing wrt the pixellation (or lack of) this morning.

Has anyone else seen fluctuations like this? Does it sound likely to be something wrong on Verizon's end of things?

Thanks,
-Eric


----------



## wmcbrine

ehagberg said:


> Has anyone else seen fluctuations like this?


Yep.



> _Does it sound likely to be something wrong on Verizon's end of things?_


Yes, just as it always is.


----------



## modular46

I installed 2 TIVO DVR's after multiple verizon DVR problems. As soon as the HD series 3 was installed I saw a lot of digital tiling. But I didn't see anything on the XL. Does anyone know if the XL has been designed to resolve these issues? Is anyone having problems with the XL? I have 14 db of attenuation on the series 3 and it has resolved all tiling issues so far but I'm only watching SD programming right now because it's hooked up to a SD set.

Has anyone thought about starting a committee or petition to Verizon? I would be interested in setting up a website or some other means to let Verizon know that their DVR's suck and that that we have to go through these issues with TIVO to get good service. I find this situation to be unacceptable. I like many of you have had verizon techs come out and don't know what the hell they are doing and have spent about 20 hours on the phone with verizon and tivo to resolve these issues.


----------



## exdishguy

modular46 said:


> I installed 2 TIVO DVR's after multiple verizon DVR problems. As soon as the HD series 3 was installed I saw a lot of digital tiling. But I didn't see anything on the XL. Does anyone know if the XL has been designed to resolve these issues? Is anyone having problems with the XL? I have 14 db of attenuation on the series 3 and it has resolved all tiling issues so far but I'm only watching SD programming right now because it's hooked up to a SD set.
> 
> Has anyone thought about starting a committee or petition to Verizon? I would be interested in setting up a website or some other means to let Verizon know that their DVR's suck and that that we have to go through these issues with TIVO to get good service. I find this situation to be unacceptable. I like many of you have had verizon techs come out and don't know what the hell they are doing and have spent about 20 hours on the phone with verizon and tivo to resolve these issues.


I have an XL and 2 HDs and have issues with all of them. I wouldn't mind starting a web site or petition right here if we can do it. Then send it to both the FCC and Verizon. I cannot believe Verizon meets CableLabs specs. I wish I could prove that, but I think this is the angle we need to voice our complaint to the FCC and Verizon.


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## ehagberg

wmcbrine said:


> Yep.
> 
> Yes, just as it always is.


So assuming this is a Verizon issue, is there something specific I should tell them to fix in order to get things working reliably?

Interestingly, at the moment, I have no pixellation (or errors) on either the low-100MHz or the mid-300MHz range at all. I imagine that'll swing one way or the other later in the day again.


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## richsadams

ehagberg said:


> So assuming this is a Verizon issue, is there something specific I should tell them to fix in order to get things working reliably?
> 
> Interestingly, at the moment, I have no pixellation (or errors) on either the low-100MHz or the mid-300MHz range at all. I imagine that'll swing one way or the other later in the day again.


Check the RS Corrected and uncorrected errors on all of your HD channels (or at least the one's you care about). Even though it's not prefect, your TiVo may be compensating for the bad signal enough that you're not seeing issues right now but if there are continual errors (corrected would likely be higher if you're not seeing anything) there's still a problem.

Attenuation seems to be the cure at the moment (although some folks here have been able to pummel their local VZ techs into actually fixing the "too hot" signal issue.) Go back to the first post on this thread and you'll find information about adding attenuation to your signal with some very inexpensive bits of hardware (oddly enough...called attenuators!).

FWIW others have had zero luck with diplexers and yet others are having zero problems after adding one...a lot of variables there and it sounds like the one you have may not be the key (might not be doing anything to help at all, or only some). If you scroll up you might try the one that subgenius37 is using. All diplexers are not built alike.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes. :up:


----------



## ehagberg

richsadams said:


> Check the RS Corrected and uncorrected errors on all of your HD channels (or at least the one's you care about). Even though it's not prefect, your TiVo may be compensating for the bad signal enough that you're not seeing issues right now but if there are continual errors (corrected would likely be higher if you're not seeing anything) there's still a problem.


That's what I mean when I say that there are problems - the corrected and uncorrected values go through the roof while on the channels that have no problems, the errors (both corrected and uncorrected) remain at 0.

When things are fine, the SNR on the good channels is still about the same as on the "bad" ones - somewhere between 34 and 37dB, so I'm more than a bit skeptical regarding how attenuation is going to make things any better, especially as the problem goes away and comes back at various times of day on different frequency bands, while doing nothing to the connectivity.



> Attenuation seems to be the cure at the moment (although some folks here have been able to pummel their local VZ techs into actually fixing the "too hot" signal issue.) Go back to the first post on this thread and you'll find information about adding attenuation to your signal with some very inexpensive bits of hardware (oddly enough...called attenuators!).
> 
> FWIW others have had zero luck with diplexers and yet others are having zero problems after adding one...a lot of variables there and it sounds like the one you have may not be the key (might not be doing anything to help at all, or only some). If you scroll up you might try the one that subgenius37 is using. All diplexers are not built alike.
> 
> Best of luck and let us know how it goes. :up:


The diplexer I've got was a 40-864MHz one that I thought had helped out the situation, as the problem channels were fine after I added it... but it seems more likely now that there's something going on in the signal I'm being fed that varies over the course of the day/night and the "improvement" I saw was really just that what Verizon was sending had changed in some fashion... and continues to do so.


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## richsadams

ehagberg said:


> ... but it seems more likely now that there's something going on in the signal I'm being fed that varies over the course of the day/night and the "improvement" I saw was really just that what Verizon was sending had changed in some fashion... and continues to do so.


Yep, have to agree there. Also, don't confuse SNR with signal strength...although a low SNR can indicate a problem. SNR is signal to noise ratio or (in somewhat layman's terms) how "clean" a signal is, not necessarily how strong. Attenuation can reduce signal strength which seems to be the overall problem with VZ FIOS.

Keep us posted.


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## ehagberg

richsadams said:


> Yep, have to agree there. Also, don't confuse SNR with signal strength...although a low SNR can indicate a problem. SNR is signal to noise ratio or (in somewhat layman's terms) how "clean" a signal is, not necessarily how strong. Attenuation can reduce signal strength which seems to be the overall problem with VZ FIOS.
> 
> Keep us posted.


It seems like I'm having problems more like the ones V7Goose was having with particular frequencies - though mine aren't constantly bad according to the tivo diagnostics screen. And I don't have a VZ STB at my location to compare results.

Rather than bother with attenuators, I'll try to go his route and try to get VZ to fix their signal, which is clearly fluctuating from being perfect at some times of the day to causing problems across particular bands of frequencies at other times of the day.


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## modular46

What upsets me is that Verizon's boxes are horrible, I've tried to get them to work reliably and they just don't. But yet they have to charge you $2.99/card even when you go out and buy equipment so that it's reliable. The cable cards should be part of the service. It's like Verizon giving you a $59.99 plan and then start charging you for the coaxle cable thats coming into the house. 

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Verizon has horrible equipment so you have to go out, by the Tivo receivers, pay the montly service fee for each receiver, and then pay Verizon for cable cards.


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## exdishguy

modular46 said:


> What upsets me is that Verizon's boxes are horrible, I've tried to get them to work reliably and they just don't. But yet they have to charge you $2.99/card even when you go out and buy equipment so that it's reliable. The cable cards should be part of the service. It's like Verizon giving you a $59.99 plan and then start charging you for the coaxle cable thats coming into the house.
> 
> Does this make sense to anyone else?
> 
> Verizon has horrible equipment so you have to go out, by the Tivo receivers, pay the montly service fee for each receiver, and then pay Verizon for cable cards.


I agree - the Verizon boxes are really awful. They gave me one (that I don't use) so I hooked it up thinking maybe I could use it for the occasional PPV. Well the HDMI does not work with my projector - it is clearly an HDCP issue. I explained this to the tech and they had no clue what HDCP even was. But another tech said that they've had a lot of HDMI issues with LG, Samsung, Sharp displays.

What is more frustrating is that they keep telling me they don't have M-Cards. In fact they don't even know what they are. If it weren't for this forum I wouldn't have a leg to stand on but I can clearly see that some folks up here have M-Cards.

I did complain about paying 2x what I should have to for cable cards and escalated it. Eventually I got a billing supervisor to credit me $100 off for my troubles. But with the continuing picture problems I think I am going to have to try and force them to send me M-Cards.

As far as my picture issues - I tried another one of the diplexers I bought (same brand/type) and my local HD channels now work. Albeit, I am seeing quite a few RS corrected and uncorrected errors. I haven't had time to watch TV long enough to know if the RS errors manifest themselves into visible artifacts on the TV yet. Strangely, I lost 4 other channels but don't care since they are ones that I don't watch.


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## richsadams

ehagberg said:


> It seems like I'm having problems more like the ones V7Goose was having with particular frequencies - though mine aren't constantly bad according to the tivo diagnostics screen. And I don't have a VZ STB at my location to compare results.
> 
> Rather than bother with attenuators, I'll try to go his route and try to get VZ to fix their signal, which is clearly fluctuating from being perfect at some times of the day to causing problems across particular bands of frequencies at other times of the day.


Sounds like a plan. I wouldn't dismiss attenuation in the meantime (a set only costs a few bucks). The VZ tech here clearly knew (and volunteered before I asked) that some frequencies needed attenuation for TiVo. Most of the techs carry an inventory on their trucks.

Best of luck and let us know what VZ does and has to say!


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## Thos19

exdishguy said:


> Just got back in town and checked some of the local HD channels. Channel 502 is on 507000KHz and channel 504 is at 513000KHz.


My pixelation problems returned recently to my Series 3 and I'm pretty frustrated.

Like Exdishguy, my pixelation problems are limited to the channels in the 500000KHz range, which for me are the regular network stations (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc.) All the other channels are 100% unaffected..

The strange part is when I attenuate, the pixelation problems are nearly eliminated, BUT ONLY ON TUNER #1. Tuner #2 has pixelation no matter how much attenuation, type of diplexer, etc I use. So I find myself hoping that when the Tivo is scheduled to tape a network show, it records on Tuner 1. This seems very ridiculous to me.

Does this mean that my Series 3 is defective (beyond the apparent inherrent limitation which requires attenuation to begin with)? It doesn't make sense to me that attentuation would alleviate problems in one tuner but not the other. I have tried swapping cable cards, and even got two new ones from Verizon, but the issue remains identical, and ongoing. 

Thos.


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## SeanC

I'm in MA as well. I have played extensively with attenuation, with mixed results. I'm at 20 right now and my pixelation problems have been virtually eliminated, to the point that I'm hesitant to put a diplexer that I just bought into the mix. But I don't believe I've found the solution, I've seen it come and go in the past, and if I had to bet money on it, I'd bet I'll be seeing bad pixelation on some channel soon and when it happens then I'll put the diplexer in there.

When I've seen pixelation it usually shows up on the major networks, but I've seen it on ScifiHD too, and several other HD channels.


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## exdishguy

Thos19 said:


> My pixelation problems returned recently to my Series 3 and I'm pretty frustrated.
> 
> Like Exdishguy, my pixelation problems are limited to the channels in the 500000KHz range, which for me are the regular network stations (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc.) All the other channels are 100% unaffected..
> 
> The strange part is when I attenuate, the pixelation problems are nearly eliminated, BUT ONLY ON TUNER #1. Tuner #2 has pixelation no matter how much attenuation, type of diplexer, etc I use. So I find myself hoping that when the Tivo is scheduled to tape a network show, it records on Tuner 1. This seems very ridiculous to me.
> 
> Does this mean that my Series 3 is defective (beyond the apparent inherrent limitation which requires attenuation to begin with)? It doesn't make sense to me that attentuation would alleviate problems in one tuner but not the other. I have tried swapping cable cards, and even got two new ones from Verizon, but the issue remains identical, and ongoing.
> 
> Thos.


Well the diplexer isn't really working for me either. Even though I get my HD locals now I was watching COM last night (190 on 429000 MHz) and it was pixelating and the RS uncorrected errors were through the roof. Back to attenuating for now. Argghhh....

I'm calling Verizon again today. They'll blame the Tivo's like they always do though so I guess I'll write the FCC again and complain about their poor support for cable cards.


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## sinanju

Get a trouble ticket from Verizon. Keep pestering them about it. Eventually, it will be escalated to Chronic Resolutions. My contact there hasn't been very chatty, though.

As for the FCC, if I recall correctly, Verizon isn't regulated like the other MSOs. I may be mistaken, but I don't think they are actually required to provide CableCARDs.


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## SeanC

sinanju said:


> As for the FCC, if I recall correctly, Verizon isn't regulated like the other MSOs. I may be mistaken, but I don't think they are actually required to provide CableCARDs.


I concur.


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## Marc

sinanju said:


> As for the FCC, if I recall correctly, Verizon isn't regulated like the other MSOs. I may be mistaken, but I don't think they are actually required to provide CableCARDs.


I don't believe this is the case. I believe they did receive an extension to the deadline by which they were supposed to support CableCARDs due to their recent entry into the market, but that date had passed some time back.


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## sinanju

Marc said:


> I don't believe this is the case. I believe they did receive an extension to the deadline by which they were supposed to support CableCARDs due to their recent entry into the market, but that date had passed some time back.


You are correct... http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6561883.html


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## sinanju

Verizon's complaint line of last resort (for New England and perhaps elsewhere) is:

+1 800 483 7988

If I don't hear back from the chronic issue resolution guys -- at least some indication that my issue hasn't been stuck in a circular file -- I'll be giving them a call. I'd encourage anyone who's fed up to do the same.


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## webin

richsadams said:


> The VZ tech here clearly knew (and volunteered before I asked) that some frequencies needed attenuation for TiVo.


Does that quote imply that you're wired for FiOS now, Rich?


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## richsadams

webin said:


> Does that quote imply that you're wired for FiOS now, Rich?


Actually no...I'm still on the proverbial fence. While walking our dog the other day I noticed a VZ truck and tech on my street and ended up chatting with him for about 10 minutes or so. He was very knowledgeable about all things FIOS and when he found out I knew something about FIOS and TiVo (thanks to the good folks here) we began to pick each other's brains. He said he had done some TiVo installs and had to add an attenuator for a certain frequency range (can't recall which as my wife was about to strain her eyes from rolling them too much  ).

So it's here and available but I keep reading the downside postings and am still hesitant to pull the trigger. Comcast is getting worse here I think because the HD PQ seems to be degrading and I'm starting to see some macroblocking too. I've read that they're squeezing more and more HD channels in by continually compressing signals so I may just jump ship anyway. Decisions, decisions.

How's your experience going?


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## webin

I'm 98&#37; happy with the service. I am using maybe 6db of attenuation (and no MOCA) and only experience pixellation occasionally. Usually it's just a few random blips in Judge Judy (on FoxHD, though seems less since it moved to 6pm?). Maybe once every month or two, some random show will be painful to watch... most recently it was some random tivo suggestion on History International. Honestly, for me, the pixellation issue has become so minuscule that I don't really feel motivated to try to fix it further. This is the first time I've ever had HD, and find that with the exception of Comedy Central and BBC America, pretty much everything I watch is in the HD tier because I'm VERY happy with how it looks (and I wish I could compare it to Comcast HD for you).

It's been a while since I've had comcast (and never their HD), but knowing what they have to do to fit more content through their soda straw of a bandwidth, I'd really recommend the fire hose that is FiOS. The two services are "roughly" the same now, but in the years to come, I don't see how cable companies can compete. In Hillsboro, I think Comcast is getting desperate already... I get mail ads about three times a week, and just this weekend, it was a 16 page magazine-style pamphlet that must have cost them a pretty penny to produce. Maybe they know their business plan isn't future-proof like Verizon's.


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## exdishguy

Well another visit by a Verizon Fios tech, and another bridge to nowhere. Nice guy though and reasonably knowledgeable. He gave me his cell and told me to call him Sat and that he'd try to get some M-Cards for me and come back.

That said, I had him punch in different channels on his meter and asked him if the signal should be consistent for each channel/freq - he said in theory it should be but he has rarely seen them consistent across the band. Since it is clear to me that there is fluctuation on certain freqs that manifest themselves into visible crap on certain channels, then to me I have to think the ONT may be part of the problem. In other words, the ONT is what multiplexes the RF channels so it is the ONT that doesn't seem to do so consistently across ALL of the freqs/channels. 

But the Tivo may also be to blame as well since it clearly is more intolerant of these fluctuations than the standard Fios DVR equipment (which do not suffer from these issues). Which one is more to blame? Which one is compliant with CableLabs specs and which one is not? Dunno. But I do not think this is a matter of Verizon outputting too hot of a signal so much as it is that the ONT is outputting an inconsistent signal across the entire 5-860Mhz band.

The tech said he may install a new ONT. I guess it is worth a try but I really are wondering if Verizon needs to escalate this to Motorola and get their techs involved to investigate their part of this.


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## richsadams

webin said:


> I'm 98% happy with the service.


Glad to hear things are going well. We may just make the move here pretty soon. I talked to the VZ folks about their higher-end 20/5(?) broadband as well and it's only $10 more a month than their standard 10/2(?) so that's a real plus. We're looking for one more plus and that's the international sports channel Setanta. We're huge rugby fans from our New Zealand days and have been downloading All Blacks' and other matches via broadband. The PQ is painful to say the least but DirectTV is the only other way to get it and that's a big NO! Verizon claims to be offering it now so I have a little more due diligence to do.

Thanks for the great feedback! I'll post when we make the transition...hopefully now that VZ has more TV and hopefully TiVo experience things will go a little more smoothly at this point.


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## sinanju

exdishguy said:


> The tech said he may install a new ONT. I guess it is worth a try but I really are wondering if Verizon needs to escalate this to Motorola and get their techs involved to investigate their part of this.


They tried two ONTs in my place. Both produced the same behavior.



exdishguy said:


> But the Tivo may also be to blame as well since it clearly is more intolerant of these fluctuations than the standard Fios DVR equipment (which do not suffer from these issues). Which one is more to blame? Which one is compliant with CableLabs specs and which one is not? Dunno. But I do not think this is a matter of Verizon outputting too hot of a signal so much as it is that the ONT is outputting an inconsistent signal across the entire 5-860Mhz band.


The TiVos are CableLabs-approved devices, too. One can presume that they were subjected to the same testing the Moto equipment was. Perhaps TiVo needs to fix something, but if Verizon isn't actively engaging TiVo to figure out what's going on, Verizon is only getting part of the picture.

My call to the customer advocate line resulted in a call back from the Chronic Resolution folks. They insist that the issue is "being worked" (gosh, how I hate that phrase) and that they have TiVos in house for testing. They don't know who "they" are, don't know what the state of the investigation is, nor do they know who they're working with at TiVo. I'm guessing the answers are "nobody", "nowhere", and "no one". I'm told I will be contacted with actual answers. I plan to be a squeaky wheel until then.

One very annoying part of the conversation was when one of them tried to argue that their own equipment worked and the TiVos were not their equipment. I countered that this problem, by all accounts, does not exist on other cable systems and that they were required to work with CableLabs-approved CableCARD devices.

My advice would be:

Work with the field techs to attenuate to the best possible result, though it won't be perfect.
Call the support number and make sure you have a trouble ticket number.
Press support until you are forwarded to Chronic Resolutions in your region's Fiber Solutions Center.
If you aren't getting regular status updates, call the customer advocates.
Make sure you get names and phone numbers from everyone past 1st line support.
In the end, the problem will probably only be resolved when fixing it becomes less trouble than not fixing it. When the Chronic Resolution folks have to spend time every week fielding calls from people with unhappy TiVos, maybe that will happen.


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## richsadams

sinanju said:


> In the end, the problem will probably only be resolved when fixing it becomes less trouble than not fixing it. When the Chronic Resolution folks have to spend time every week fielding calls from people with unhappy TiVos, maybe that will happen.


Well put...and this is the sort of thing that keeps me on the fence. Sigh.


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## mae

richsadams said:


> Well put...and this is the sort of thing that keeps me on the fence. Sigh.


I've been sitting on the fence for a few months now as well. I've been sticking it out due to 3 TVs w/o STBs that I'll need with FIOS. Comcast's poor channel choices here (IMHO) - dropping the DC locals from analog, FOXNEWS HD and Speed HD over Bravo HD and Weather Channel HD, the lack of any version of the Travel Channel and frequent outages were pushing me, but the bill that arrived today may have tipped me. A "promotion" of about $60 a month that I've had for a few years expired. A call to the retention people (and supervisor) wouldn't get me more than $10 a month unless I took their phone service. I keep telling them when I have IP service w/o an outage for 30 days I'll consider it (hasn't happened in 3 years

I've read this and the main FIOS thread. Anyone local have more specific advice or points to consider before I jump? The CSR I got prices from even knew what M cards were and said they had them.

Thanks for your help


----------



## richsadams

Still fence sitting, but leaning into FIOS territory myself more every day. It seems like the folks out here (left coast) are having less issues than our cousins to the east, so maybe we're a little more fortunate, I don't know. That big broadband pipe, excellent (read: uncompressed) SD and more importantly HD PQ and all are really calling me though.


----------



## mae

Rich,

In addition to all the quality issues, the prices here push even harder. If I were to take the Comcast phone, they would be about equal, but after the year promotion, would rise to about $40 a month more. With the VZ phone and Comcast services I have now FIOS comes out at an $80 a month saving even with 3 more STBs. After the promotion is still is about $50 cheaper. For $600 a year and at least the potential of better picture quality and more bandwidth, it is hard to resist.

I don't know how prices for Comcast and VZ compare in your area, but it sure is a wide gap here.

Mark


----------



## richsadams

We're right around $150/mo. for Comcast phone/broadband/tv (including HBO and Showtime). VZ would be about $50/mo. less for the first year...or they'll let you lock into 2 years at that price with a two year contract (but stiff penalties for withdrawal). They'll throw in a free VZ DVR for the first year...no thanks. I don't think it'll be long before we switch over. 

The other concern is VZ's billing and accounting support which most everyone agrees is atrocious. We've had VZ cell phones for a couple of years and it's been very, very painful making any changes whatsoever. Guess we'll need to be sure everything is perfect going in so we won't have to make any changes later.


----------



## ah30k

mae said:


> I've been sitting on the fence for a few months now as well. I've been sticking it out due to 3 TVs w/o STBs that I'll need with FIOS. ...


Had you been in FIOS before the switch to all-digital you could have gotten free STBs (basically a DCT-700) for any analog TVs you had in the house that would lose reception due to the switch. At the time of the switch I requested three DCT-700s (two S2 TiVos and a media center PC) which are costing me nothing per month. The magic was that you had to make the request at the time of the A->D switch. I don't mean to gloat, but it was a sweet deal.


----------



## Ziggy86

Please keep us posted as to what they tell you. Thanks for keeping on them 



sinanju said:


> They tried two ONTs in my place. Both produced the same behavior.
> 
> The TiVos are CableLabs-approved devices, too. One can presume that they were subjected to the same testing the Moto equipment was. Perhaps TiVo needs to fix something, but if Verizon isn't actively engaging TiVo to figure out what's going on, Verizon is only getting part of the picture.
> 
> My call to the customer advocate line resulted in a call back from the Chronic Resolution folks. They insist that the issue is "being worked" (gosh, how I hate that phrase) and that they have TiVos in house for testing. They don't know who "they" are, don't know what the state of the investigation is, nor do they know who they're working with at TiVo. I'm guessing the answers are "nobody", "nowhere", and "no one". I'm told I will be contacted with actual answers. I plan to be a squeaky wheel until then.
> 
> One very annoying part of the conversation was when one of them tried to argue that their own equipment worked and the TiVos were not their equipment. I countered that this problem, by all accounts, does not exist on other cable systems and that they were required to work with CableLabs-approved CableCARD devices.
> 
> My advice would be:
> 
> Work with the field techs to attenuate to the best possible result, though it won't be perfect.
> Call the support number and make sure you have a trouble ticket number.
> Press support until you are forwarded to Chronic Resolutions in your region's Fiber Solutions Center.
> If you aren't getting regular status updates, call the customer advocates.
> Make sure you get names and phone numbers from everyone past 1st line support.
> In the end, the problem will probably only be resolved when fixing it becomes less trouble than not fixing it. When the Chronic Resolution folks have to spend time every week fielding calls from people with unhappy TiVos, maybe that will happen.


----------



## jburvant

Ive been reading through this thread to get some tips on dealing with my pixellation problems. First off heres my setup: My cable provider is Charter, I have the 180 GB Tivo HD, Im using a Motorola M-card, and the cable from the wall is going straight to the Tivo( no splitters).
I receive about 40 HD channels and have noticed pixellation on 6 channels. All 6 have tons of RS Uncorrected. This is what their diagnostics looked like:
-	707 ABC HD, 710 CBS, 712 PBS HD
o	Frequency = 759,000 KHz
o	Signal Strength = 44-56, sometimes drops to 0
o	SNR = 29-30 dB

-	730 DISC HD, 740 HDNET, 741 HDNETMV
o	Frequency = 753,000 KHz
o	Signal Strength = 44-56, sometimes drops to 0
o	SNR = 29-30 dB

Here is a sample of channels that work perfectly:
-	703 CW HD
o	Frequency = 777,000 KHz
o	Signal Strength = 81-87
o	SNR = 34 dB
-	706 NBC HD
o	Frequency = 627,000 KHz
o	Signal Strength = 93-100
o	SNR = 36-37 dB
-	708 FOX HD
o	Frequency = 777,000 KHz
o	Signal Strength = 81-87
o	SNR = 34-35 dB
-	720 ESPN HD 
o	Frequency = 825,000 KHz
o	Signal strength = 81-93
o	SNR = 34-35 dB
-	731 TNT HD
o	Frequency = 807,000 KHz
o	Signal Strength = 81-87 
o	SNR = 34 dB
-	750 HBO HD
o	Frequency = 741,000 KHz
o	Signal Strength = 62-68 
o	SNR = 32 dB

Now it seems to me that those of you with FIOS needed to knock down their SNR a bit, and maybe, in contrast, I need to boost my signal to get those pixellating channels above the 32 dB SNR level. Does that seem right? Could a signal booster from radio shack do the trick?


----------



## Thos19

This is just a shot in the dark, but does everyone here have Motorolla cards? Anyone experiencing the same pixelation issues using Scientific Atlanta cards?

Thos


----------



## substance12

well my diplexer finally came in from partsexpress and no luck for me. pixelation was as bad as ever. currently my solution is using 8+8+6 db attenuators. it's not a great solution but it's the only thing that makes NGC, Disc HD watchable.


----------



## evlg

ah30k said:


> Had you been in FIOS before the switch to all-digital you could have gotten free STBs (basically a DCT-700) for any analog TVs you had in the house that would lose reception due to the switch. At the time of the switch I requested three DCT-700s (two S2 TiVos and a media center PC) which are costing me nothing per month. The magic was that you had to make the request at the time of the A->D switch. I don't mean to gloat, but it was a sweet deal.


I got a DCT-700 and found it to be pretty close to worthless. The only channels it tunes are the local channels. I can't get ESPN or CNN or anything worth watching.

Do you have the same experience? I wonder if mine is just misconfigured or something.


----------



## wmcbrine

Yes, yours is misconfigured. They can tune all SD channels.


----------



## exdishguy

Thos19 said:


> This is just a shot in the dark, but does everyone here have Motorolla cards? Anyone experiencing the same pixelation issues using Scientific Atlanta cards?
> 
> Thos


I just had another tech to my house today and he told me they are looking at SA to replace the Motorola ONTs as well. I asked him about SA cards and he didn't know about them. Do you know if Fios has them deployed anywhere?


----------



## exdishguy

I've escalated to chronic resolutions and supposedly my case will be assigned to a dedicated "executive" as a single point of contact. That said, I wonder if we should be collecting up our names and trouble tickets to get better organized to take on Verizon? As much talk as there is on this forum, the Fios forums, etc. Verizon will tends to act as though no problem exist. They've sent techs out to my place at least 6 times now and each time they do I have to repeat myself and let them see the issue only to have them offer little to no help. This issue needs to be recognized at the upper levels of Verizon and I think we need to push them to involve Motorola, SA, CableLabs, Tivo...whatever it takes to get this matter resolved.

BTW - it is clear to me this issue is not limited to Tivos as we all might think up here. The Moto STB/DVRs lock up and have other issues that are all probably related to the same issue IMO. But in their case, I don't think they can see a screen with RS errors like we can and most Moto DVR owners aren't typically as techincally savvy as folks up here.


----------



## sinanju

exdishguy said:


> I've escalated to chronic resolutions and supposedly my case will be assigned to a dedicated "executive" as a single point of contact. That said, I wonder if we should be collecting up our names and trouble tickets to get better organized to take on Verizon?


That's a great idea. I've just sent you a PM. If you want to send me your ticket # in a PM, I'll start piling them up on the desk of the guy in the Providence resolution center.

EDIT:

Let me extend the offer to everyone having the problem. I'm happy to collect ticket numbers and pile them on a single desk. The chronic resolution center generally closes tickets when they receive an issue, so give me your location and the ticket number that was sent to them and then closed... they can see the closed tickets.


----------



## ah30k

evlg said:


> I got a DCT-700 and found it to be pretty close to worthless. The only channels it tunes are the local channels. I can't get ESPN or CNN or anything worth watching.
> 
> Do you have the same experience? I wonder if mine is just misconfigured or something.


yes, yours is misconfigured. I get all authorized SD digital channels.


----------



## ah30k

Thos19 said:


> This is just a shot in the dark, but does everyone here have Motorolla cards? Anyone experiencing the same pixelation issues using Scientific Atlanta cards?
> 
> Thos


Verizon does not use SA. Yet.


----------



## ah30k

exdishguy said:


> I just had another tech to my house today and he told me they are looking at SA to replace the Motorola ONTs as well. I asked him about SA cards and he didn't know about them. Do you know if Fios has them deployed anywhere?


My post just above this was that Verizon is not using SA but I was referring to their QAM/IP signalling and other traditional equipment such as CableCARDs where you usually see Mot or SA in any one footprint. After seeing your post, I suppose they could use an SA ONT though.


----------



## bivrak

The problem below is almost exactly what I have. 628 and 639 are worst for me. 585 and 625 are watchable but have a little pixellation now and then. Other two seem fine.

I haven't tried attenuation myself yet. Verizon is coming Friday.

My signal strength on these channels is low (45 or 50, sometimes dropping to 0 them popping back up to 45 or 50) and my SNR tends to be 30db or 29db. Sometimes it is actually the magic "31", but I still have pixellation even at 31.

Is attentuation likely to help me, or do I need something else?

As others have reported, I had no issues until the recent channel lineup change.

And tips / suggestions / sharing of experience greatly appreciated.

Thanks



sinanju said:


> My report has gone to the Chronic Resolutions Team in Providence. The original trouble ticket is closed, but presumably "Tony" has the issue as one of his to-dos.
> 
> If anyone else is still experiencing pixelation after applying the attenuation fix, I'd suggest you keep on them -- perhaps we can achieve some sort of critical mass to get them focused.
> 
> I'd especially look at lower QAM frequencies... in my case, I have consistent pixelation on 123, 117, and 111MHz. It appears that the attenuation fix might have worked for them, but the signal is not stable enough -- signal strength is highly variable, as is the SNR, with occasional crashes to 0. You'll only be able to find out what channels are on what frequencies by going to the TiVo's diagnostics screen, hitting the Live TV button, finding the channel, left arrow back to the diagnostics screen, hit Live TV, channel up, left arrow, repeat ad nauseum.
> 
> If you are in New England, the lower frequencies I mentioned map as follows:
> 
> 
> *111MHz* 622 (Science HD), 630 (Animal Planet HD)
> *117MHz* 585 (Big 10 HD), 625 (Smithsonian HD)
> *123MHz* 628 (History HD), 639 (TLC HD)
> 
> If I reduce the attenuation, that seems to fix those lower frequencies by making the bottom end of the range of instability still high enough to avoid uncorrectable errors, but at the expense of blowing out all of the other channels.


----------



## exdishguy

bivrak said:


> The problem below is almost exactly what I have. 628 and 639 are worst for me. 585 and 625 are watchable but have a little pixellation now and then. Other two seem fine.
> 
> I haven't tried attenuation myself yet. Verizon is coming Friday.
> 
> My signal strength on these channels is low (45 or 50, sometimes dropping to 0 them popping back up to 45 or 50) and my SNR tends to be 30db or 29db. Sometimes it is actually the magic "31", but I still have pixellation even at 31.
> 
> Is attentuation likely to help me, or do I need something else?
> 
> As others have reported, I had no issues until the recent channel lineup change.
> 
> And tips / suggestions / sharing of experience greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks


Sounds like you won't be able to attenuate. Have the tech check the signal but you may need to get the signal up before worrying about attenuating to 31db. How long is your RG6 cable run?


----------



## bivrak

I have three TiVo HDs, all having the same problem. There's a three-way splitter outside by the ONT. Two of my TiVos are far from the splitter, so the cables are very long. One is only about 10 feet away.

As far as I can tell, the problem is about the same on all three units. Does that make sense? Or should it be better on the one with less cable?

Thanks



exdishguy said:


> Sounds like you won't be able to attenuate. Have the tech check the signal but you may need to get the signal up before worrying about attenuating to 31db. How long is your RG6 cable run?


----------



## exdishguy

bivrak said:


> I have three TiVo HDs, all having the same problem. There's a three-way splitter outside by the ONT. Two of my TiVos are far from the splitter, so the cables are very long. One is only about 10 feet away.
> 
> As far as I can tell, the problem is about the same on all three units. Does that make sense? Or should it be better on the one with less cable?
> 
> Thanks


Well there would be some loss over longer distances but it sounds like you have another issue. My signal was very hot no matter at all of my three Tivo HDs - I think the tech said I was +5dB.

One thing I noticed is that like your situation, my bad channels seem to "bounce" in terms of signal strength and SNR rather wildly. The signal strength on my bad channels can drop from 58 to 0 when things are really bad.


----------



## bivrak

Verizon was out today to my house. I am in the Maryland suburbs of Washington and have the same problems on the same channels. I have the same issues on all three TiVo HDs in my house, so I find it extremely unlikely that my issue is related to problems with a particular TiVo or cablecard.

The tech tried all the usual TiVo fixes, like attenuation and a low-pass filter. It made no difference.

He then tested the frequencies listed below on his little "tricorder-like" device (not sure what it's called) and reported that he was getting errors on those frequencies. He went outside and tested the signal coming directly from the ONT. Same result.

He called The FSC and said they opened a ticket for the NNMC or something like that to check the signal for the channels on these frequencies at the Central Office later today. My ticket was closed. The tech suggested I call back next week to follow up if the problem hasn't been resolved by then.

He agreed with what's already been suggested here on the forum, namely that:

1. This QAM low frequency pixellation problem is not the same as the more widely known "signal too hot - attenuation" issue, and can not be resolved by attenuating. 
2. The signal appears to be too low coming from upstream from my house on those channels only, while if anything, it is too hot on all the other channels. 
3. The reason they aren't deluged with complaints is because TiVo's tuners seem to be more sensitive to this "low signal on certain frequencies only" issue than Verizon's STBs.

I agree with what's been said before, that we need to keep complaining until they realize this is a global issue with their signal strength on these frequencies and respond accordingly.

I plan to give them a week or so and then call the Verizon executive complaint department if it comes to that.

I also am going to call TiVo support later today. I know they can't help me, but maybe they can try to escalate this with Verizon?

This is very frustrating, as it's probably something that could be fixed quickly if we could just get the attention of the right person.

I'll update again next week.

-Bivrak

P.S. Should there be a separate thread for this issue, since several of us are seeing that it cannot be resolved by attenuating, and is specific to these few channels?



sinanju said:


> My report has gone to the Chronic Resolutions Team in Providence. The original trouble ticket is closed, but presumably "Tony" has the issue as one of his to-dos.
> 
> If anyone else is still experiencing pixelation after applying the attenuation fix, I'd suggest you keep on them -- perhaps we can achieve some sort of critical mass to get them focused.
> 
> I'd especially look at lower QAM frequencies... in my case, I have consistent pixelation on 123, 117, and 111MHz. It appears that the attenuation fix might have worked for them, but the signal is not stable enough -- signal strength is highly variable, as is the SNR, with occasional crashes to 0. You'll only be able to find out what channels are on what frequencies by going to the TiVo's diagnostics screen, hitting the Live TV button, finding the channel, left arrow back to the diagnostics screen, hit Live TV, channel up, left arrow, repeat ad nauseum.
> 
> If you are in New England, the lower frequencies I mentioned map as follows:
> 
> 
> *111MHz* 622 (Science HD), 630 (Animal Planet HD)
> *117MHz* 585 (Big 10 HD), 625 (Smithsonian HD)
> *123MHz* 628 (History HD), 639 (TLC HD)
> 
> If I reduce the attenuation, that seems to fix those lower frequencies by making the bottom end of the range of instability still high enough to avoid uncorrectable errors, but at the expense of blowing out all of the other channels.


----------



## sinanju

bivrak said:


> He then tested the frequencies listed below on his little "tricorder-like" device (not sure what it's called) and reported that he was getting errors on those frequencies. He went outside and tested the signal coming directly from the ONT. Same result.


I believe they call it a "Sunrise Meter".



bivrak said:


> I agree with what's been said before, that we need to keep complaining until they realize this is a global issue with their signal strength on these frequencies and respond accordingly.
> 
> I plan to give them a week or so and then call the Verizon executive complaint department if it comes to that.


The complaint resolutions number at Verizon is +1 800 483 7988



bivrak said:


> I also am going to call TiVo support later today. I know they can't help me, but maybe they can try to escalate this with Verizon?


Actually, if you just call 1st line support and tell them that you're getting nowhere with truck rolls, you can also suggest they forward your ticket to Chronic Resolutions.



bivrak said:


> This is very frustrating, as it's probably something that could be fixed quickly if we could just get the attention of the right person.


If you want to PM me your ticket number and your location, I'll add it to the pile I'm trying to form on the desk of the Chronic Resolutions folks in my area. So far, only my ticket and *exdishguy*'s are on that pile. I don't know what critical mass would be for action, but I'm pretty sure that number isn't "2".


----------



## Billster

Has the new software update (if it didn't cause any other bugs) addressed the pixellation problem? I've only needed a slight attenuation (8db) to eliminate the pixellation and wondered what everyone else was doing.


----------



## sinanju

Billster said:


> Has the new software update (if it didn't cause any other bugs) addressed the pixellation problem?


No.


----------



## bicker

Hmmm... since Animal Planet and Science are two channels we're like to enjoy, perhaps we should hold off switching to FiOS until this is resolved? Is this problem affecting everyone with TiVos, or just a small percentage?


----------



## SeanC

Billster said:


> Has the new software update (if it didn't cause any other bugs) addressed the pixellation problem? I've only needed a slight attenuation (8db) to eliminate the pixellation and wondered what everyone else was doing.


I've been playing with attenuation for a couple of months now, trying to dial it in.

After the update I removed all attenuation. Over a period of 48 hours I felt that there was less pixelation then I had experience in the past, but that doesn't mean much as it has always been a fairly random event in my case, it did take awhile to find programs that were pixelating though.

So now I'm back to my 20dB attenuator.


----------



## sinanju

SeanC said:


> So now I'm back to my 20dB attenuator.


If you have a trouble ticket, opened or closed, with Verizon, I'd love to add it to the pile I'm trying to build at the Chronic Resolution center along with mine, *bivrak*'s and *exdishguy*'s.

PM me the number and your town, if you want to join the club.


----------



## SeanC

sinanju said:


> If you have a trouble ticket, opened or closed, with Verizon, I'd love to add it to the pile I'm trying to build at the Chronic Resolution center along with mine, *bivrak*'s and *exdishguy*'s.
> 
> PM me the number and your town, if you want to join the club.


I do not. I haven't ever called about video issues. I've spent my energy trying to get my 20/5 working, and keep it up. Every other month something happens and I lose my internet. One tech came and cut my line, that took 2 weeks to get fixed. Then just last week "they" did something to my account and it turned off my internet. That took 4 days to get corrected. Just yesterday it went out again and I had to call and have them break the lease to get it back up.

I've often contemplated about opening a ticket about the pixelation, but I just haven't bothered.


----------



## sinanju

SeanC said:


> I've often contemplated about opening a ticket about the pixelation, but I just haven't bothered.


I would encourage you to do so, though I understand time constraints. If you let 1st line support know that you're aware of the attenuation recommendation and you can provide the ticket number of others with the same issue (you can certainly have mine and I'll let *bivrak* and *exdishguy* speak for themselves), perhaps you can get fast-tracked through the normal, useless stuff they usually try.


----------



## subgenius37

So this is a follow up to some of my posts earlier, talking about a diplexer fixing my particular Verizon FiOS cable card + TIVO HD problem. It is still working except between 8-9:30 on Tuesday night. For whatever reason on that night I get a bunch of RS errors all around the 5.1 MHz frequency, which ends up being HD broadcast channels. I am in the Portland, OR area and I am wondering if others are seeing this too. I tried to attenuate the problem away on Tuesday night and that made it WORSE. So this is an altogether new problem. But as someone else in this thread wrote, heck if it works 98% of the time I guess I'm happy. Still want to get this resolved though. 

- SubG


----------



## richsadams

subgenius37 said:


> I am in the Portland, OR area and I am wondering if others are seeing this too.


I'm in Lake Oswego and haven't pulled the trigger on FIOS just yet (still have Comcast) but I'm following this and other FIOS threads closely. I'd be really interested to know as well...and what you or anyone else is doing to resolve things. Thanks for checking in and TIA for reporting back! :up:


----------



## FiosUser

subgenius37 said:


> So this is a follow up to some of my posts earlier, talking about a diplexer fixing my particular Verizon FiOS cable card + TIVO HD problem. It is still working except between 8-9:30 on Tuesday night. For whatever reason on that night I get a bunch of RS errors all around the 5.1 MHz frequency, which ends up being HD broadcast channels. I am in the Portland, OR area and I am wondering if others are seeing this too. I tried to attenuate the problem away on Tuesday night and that made it WORSE. So this is an altogether new problem. But as someone else in this thread wrote, heck if it works 98% of the time I guess I'm happy. Still want to get this resolved though.
> 
> - SubG


I have a diplexer fixing my pixelation. Granted, I only get to watch a couple of hours of TV a day and it is all recorded, I still haven't seen any pixelation since putting the diplexer on about 2 months ago.


----------



## webin

subgenius37 said:


> I am in the Portland, OR area and I am wondering if others are seeing this too.


I'm out in Hillsboro, and it dawned on me today that I can't actually tell you when I last saw pixelation. Maybe it's just the channels I'm watching, but I'm not experiencing ANY issues with picture quality right now (I still have my 6db attenuator on). So instead of 98%... go ahead and bump me up to 99.8% happy with quality of service.

And 21% happy with the billing department, but that's another issue.


----------



## exdishguy

Finally getting an M-Card to try out. I should have it by Friday. I don't know if it will work or not but its worth a try since nothing else seems to work.


----------



## bivrak

I'm not positive yet, but it looks like they may have fixed this in Maryland / suburban Washington yesterday.

Last night I checked, and I had no problems on any of the six low frequency channels identified earlier by Sinanju.

The ones that had been worst for me had been 628 and 639. They'd been literally unwatchable for the last couple of weeks. Last night they looked perfect.

DVR Diagnistics showed a signal fluctuating between 62 and 68. (Had been between 40 and 50 dropping down to 0 when signal lock was lost.)

SNR was consistently 31 or 32. (Had been in the 20s.)

And RS Uncorrected never budged from 0. (Had very rapidly increased before.)

I've read where people say these problems occasionally get better at certain times of day and then return. So I was afraid channels 628 and 639 would be unwatchable again this morning. But I just checked, and I'm seeing the same thing as last night. They still look perfect.

So yeah, I still want to see this result consistently at different times of day for the next few days before I declare victory, but it's looking very good right now.

I hope if it really is fixed that they'll soon do the same thing in other parts of the country and fix it for the rest of you, if they haven't already.

Sinanju, how are things in New England today?

I'll give what I hope will be my final update within a few days.

-Bivrak



bivrak said:


> Verizon was out today to my house. I am in the Maryland suburbs of Washington and have the same problems on the same channels. I have the same issues on all three TiVo HDs in my house, so I find it extremely unlikely that my issue is related to problems with a particular TiVo or cablecard.
> 
> The tech tried all the usual TiVo fixes, like attenuation and a low-pass filter. It made no difference.
> 
> He then tested the frequencies listed below on his little "tricorder-like" device (not sure what it's called) and reported that he was getting errors on those frequencies. He went outside and tested the signal coming directly from the ONT. Same result.
> 
> He called The FSC and said they opened a ticket for the NNMC or something like that to check the signal for the channels on these frequencies at the Central Office later today. My ticket was closed. The tech suggested I call back next week to follow up if the problem hasn't been resolved by then.
> 
> He agreed with what's already been suggested here on the forum, namely that:
> 
> 1. This QAM low frequency pixellation problem is not the same as the more widely known "signal too hot - attenuation" issue, and can not be resolved by attenuating.
> 2. The signal appears to be too low coming from upstream from my house on those channels only, while if anything, it is too hot on all the other channels.
> 3. The reason they aren't deluged with complaints is because TiVo's tuners seem to be more sensitive to this "low signal on certain frequencies only" issue than Verizon's STBs.
> 
> I agree with what's been said before, that we need to keep complaining until they realize this is a global issue with their signal strength on these frequencies and respond accordingly.
> 
> I plan to give them a week or so and then call the Verizon executive complaint department if it comes to that.
> 
> I also am going to call TiVo support later today. I know they can't help me, but maybe they can try to escalate this with Verizon?
> 
> This is very frustrating, as it's probably something that could be fixed quickly if we could just get the attention of the right person.
> 
> I'll update again next week.
> 
> -Bivrak
> 
> P.S. Should there be a separate thread for this issue, since several of us are seeing that it cannot be resolved by attenuating, and is specific to these few channels?


----------



## sinanju

This issue is like an elderly relative -- it has good days and bad days. Lately, things had been pretty good. There have been stretches of no errors at all. Then even longer stretches where the error rate has been entirely correctable. This morning, in just 200 seconds, I have 460k correctable and 42k uncorrectable errors on 628.

Sadly, I don't think anything has changed for any of us. I think there's just been a run of good luck.


----------



## bivrak

You're right. Things are bad again here this evening. Sigh.



sinanju said:


> This issue is like an elderly relative -- it has good days and bad days. Lately, things had been pretty good. There have been stretches of no errors at all. Then even longer stretches where the error rate has been entirely correctable. This morning, in just 200 seconds, I have 460k correctable and 42k uncorrectable errors on 628.
> 
> Sadly, I don't think anything has changed for any of us. I think there's just been a run of good luck.


----------



## exdishguy

bivrak said:


> You're right. Things are bad again here this evening. Sigh.


My neighbor called me today and asked if I was having problems with Fios. He told me some of the channels "distort and break up" and when he watches them. Here is the bonus: they are they same channels I am having issues with AND HE HAS A MOTOROLA 7000 series DVR!

I'm not saying that Tivo is completely off the hook, but in my case and in my area, it seems to me that Verizon has signal integrity issues at the head-end on certain channels/frequencies.

What is really depressing is that my Fios tech found some M-Cards for me but since the Moto 7000 uses an M-Card, I'm not so sure that they will help me other than lowering my monthly out-of-pocket for cablecards.


----------



## bivrak

I have M cards and I am having the problem. I can't speak for whether or not M cards help with the "signal too hot - solve by attenuation" problem as I've never had that, but they don't seem to prevent the "signal too weak on low frequencies" problem. Though to be fair, I can't say for sure my issues wouldn't be worse with S cards. But I can say M cards won't completely make the issues go away.

Maybe it's a good sign that someone with non-TiVo hardware is having the problem. Maybe they'll get more complaints.

I work in the technology field myself, and also for a large company - though not as large as Verizon. My guess is that this problem probably could be resolved fairly easily and quickly if it could be brought to the attention of the right person or group. The real problem is getting the huge Verizon bureaucracy, where the right hand almost always knows nothing about the left, to recognize there's an issue and bring it to the right person or group's attention. That may take us months, and then it's likely to be fixed in a day or two. Frustrating!



exdishguy said:


> My neighbor called me today and asked if I was having problems with Fios. He told me some of the channels "distort and break up" and when he watches them. Here is the bonus: they are they same channels I am having issues with AND HE HAS A MOTOROLA 7000 series DVR!
> 
> I'm not saying that Tivo is completely off the hook, but in my case and in my area, it seems to me that Verizon has signal integrity issues at the head-end on certain channels/frequencies.
> 
> What is really depressing is that my Fios tech found some M-Cards for me but since the Moto 7000 uses an M-Card, I'm not so sure that they will help me other than lowering my monthly out-of-pocket for cablecards.


----------



## exdishguy

bivrak said:


> I have M cards and I am having the problem. I can't speak for whether or not M cards help with the "signal too hot - solve by attenuation" problem as I've never had that, but they don't seem to prevent the "signal too weak on low frequencies" problem. Though to be fair, I can't say for sure my issues wouldn't be worse with S cards. But I can say M cards won't completely make the issues go away.
> 
> Maybe it's a good sign that someone with non-TiVo hardware is having the problem. Maybe they'll get more complaints.
> 
> I work in the technology field myself, and also for a large company - though not as large as Verizon. My guess is that this problem probably could be resolved fairly easily and quickly if it could be brought to the attention of the right person or group. The real problem is getting the huge Verizon bureaucracy, where the right hand almost always knows nothing about the left, to recognize there's an issue and bring it to the right person or group's attention. That may take us months, and then it's likely to be fixed in a day or two. Frustrating!


I plan on walking my Fios tech next door to see the problem for himself on the neighbors DVR. That said, I think there are at least a couple of issues at hand here - the sensitivity of the tuners in the Tivo boxes which can be corrected with attenuators. And signal integrity issues at the head-end in the Fios system that result in MPEG errors that on some frequencies are so bad, cannot be corrected and thus result in pixelation. I suppose there is the possibility that S-Cards do not perform as well as M-Cards and contribute as well...but I doubt it.


----------



## richsadams

bivrak said:


> The real problem is getting the huge Verizon bureaucracy, where the right hand almost always knows nothing about the left, to recognize there's an issue and bring it to the right person or group's attention. That may take us months, and then it's likely to be fixed in a day or two. Frustrating!


Well put. :up: Hopefully no one will give up on doing their part to get things resolved. Those that follow (like us fence-sitters ) will be forever grateful. TIA!


----------



## NJRonbo

Well, I just joined the club!

Got Verizon Fios the other day as well as two Tivo branded HD units. Within hours I noticed major pixelation problems. Spent most of the day on the phone with Fios who helped me discover that the pixelation was only happening on those televisions in my home with Tivo. It was at that point Verizon would help me no further as they claimed they don't support Tivo since it is not their equipment.

I then found this thread and countless more across the Internet. I just ordered a package of signal attenuators from SmartHome, but God knows if that will work or not.

The more I think of this problem and the amount of complaints posted across the Internet, the more angry I have become. To think that Tivo has known about these issues for the past three years and done nothing to upgrade their units is quite disturbing.

I went over to the Tivo website in hopes of firing off a pointed letter to their customer service and executives. No such links to contact either exist. All that does exist over there is a discussion support forum. I posted this message to it today...

http://forums.tivo.com/pe/action/forums/displaythread?rootPostID=10413471

Who knows if anyone with influence will read it. My goal at this point is to make
some noise. I need contact information for any executives with that company. I think that Tivo owes it to its customers to upgrade these units and make replacements available to those who may be out of warranty and are still experiencing problems with the Fios service --- especially for the fact that the company has been ignoring these complaints for the past three years.

Anyone that can assist?


----------



## modular46

I had to send Verizon back one of my cable cards can anyone tell me how to setup the new card through the Menu settings? I have a HD Tivo and FIOS.

Thanks


Dave


----------



## substance12

has anyone experimented with the attenuator location? such as before the diplexer? at the tivo? at the wall outlet? would this make a difference at all?


----------



## NJRonbo

People are telling me not to place the attenuator anyplace but at the
Tivo connection.


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## westcoastexport

I am in No Va and having issues with channels 552 (TBS) and 590 most significantly. Through the use of attenuators, I was able to get the SNR to 31 (with minor fluxation) but RS uncorrected was still ~ 22700000. The pixelation was unchanged. Anyone have suggestions beyond the attenuators?? Thx


----------



## Dmon4u

Not sure if this was posted here before or not:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19801518

"If you have problems with FiOS TV....

If you are having problems with FiOS TV either pixelating/tiling/artifacting and have a 611i ONT (White ONT with 4 POTS ports, NO MOCA) or a Motorola 1000V and no one has been able to resolve the issue, check to make sure a low pass filter, MoCA Diplexer, or MOCA NID has been installed on the coax feed immediately after the ONT. There is a known issue that affects only these two types of ONTs. Basically, the video signal when tested appears to be normal and within specifications and so the tech doesn't seem to find anything wrong with the video signal out of the ONT. The actual cause however is isolated to a defect in the ONT Triplexer. What happens is that the MOCA from the Actiontec router or the motorola nim backfeeds into the ONT. The ONT is supposed to have a triplexer that keeps those signals from interefering with each other. To fix the problem, the Moca Lan signal (1125mhz-1175mhz) needs to be filtered out of the coaxial network prior to reaching the ONT 611i or ONT 1000V. The best way is to place a low pass filter immediately after the ONT which will pass through 5-860MHz video signal, but not allow the 1125-1175Mhz moca signal from the router to reach the ONT. This signal only needs to travel between router and set-top boxes. If a low pass filter is unavailable, then a diplexer or moca nid may be used. Please note this does not affect the MOCA cable ONT's such as the Tellabs 612, or the Motorola 1000M. If you are having problems with your TV service and everything else has been tried and you have this particular model ONT, make sure the technician tries this. If he has any questions tell him to refer to Doc. No. 2007-00021-MDP Issue C for methods and procedures.

Thought I would post this for those who may have this issue since unfortunately not every tech reads the methods and procedures or knows about this issue."

by "originalvztech"


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## substance12

why would placing the diplexer after the ONT vs at the tivo make a difference?


----------



## Dmon4u

Perhaps the "backfeed' (or better known as feedback to most of us) is the original cause of problems, at least in the ONT(s) stated.


----------



## wsc123

I have been having a similar problem as described by subgenius below. I'm in the Portland, OR area and for the past few weeks have been getting a lot of intermittent pixelation and audio drop-outs on the HD local channels around the low 500MHz frequency range (particularly on channel 508). Verizon has been out twice to try to resolve the problem, but no success. I have an HD Tivo with two single-stream cable cards.

The SNR on these channels is 31-32dB, but the signal strength is much lower than on the channels that don't have the problem, usually around 60-70, but often dropping below 40 or as low as 0, resulting in hundreds of thousands of RS errors.

Are others in the Portland area still having this problem? Does anyone know how to get this fixed? Every time Verizon sends out a technician, the problem doesn't seem to be happening while they are at my house, but then it starts up again a few hours later. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.



subgenius37 said:


> So this is a follow up to some of my posts earlier, talking about a diplexer fixing my particular Verizon FiOS cable card + TIVO HD problem. It is still working except between 8-9:30 on Tuesday night. For whatever reason on that night I get a bunch of RS errors all around the 5.1 MHz frequency, which ends up being HD broadcast channels. I am in the Portland, OR area and I am wondering if others are seeing this too. I tried to attenuate the problem away on Tuesday night and that made it WORSE. So this is an altogether new problem. But as someone else in this thread wrote, heck if it works 98% of the time I guess I'm happy. Still want to get this resolved though.
> 
> - SubG


----------



## wm2008

NJRonbo said:


> Well, I just joined the club!
> 
> Got Verizon Fios the other day as well as two Tivo branded HD units. Within hours I noticed major pixelation problems. Spent most of the day on the phone with Fios who helped me discover that the pixelation was only happening on those televisions in my home with Tivo. It was at that point Verizon would help me no further as they claimed they don't support Tivo since it is not their equipment.
> 
> I then found this thread and countless more across the Internet. I just ordered a package of signal attenuators from SmartHome, but God knows if that will work or not.
> 
> The more I think of this problem and the amount of complaints posted across the Internet, the more angry I have become. To think that Tivo has known about these issues for the past three years and done nothing to upgrade their units is quite disturbing.
> 
> I went over to the Tivo website in hopes of firing off a pointed letter to their customer service and executives. No such links to contact either exist. All that does exist over there is a discussion support forum. I posted this message to it today...
> 
> http://forums.tivo.com/pe/action/forums/displaythread?rootPostID=10413471
> 
> Who knows if anyone with influence will read it. My goal at this point is to make
> some noise. I need contact information for any executives with that company. I think that Tivo owes it to its customers to upgrade these units and make replacements available to those who may be out of warranty and are still experiencing problems with the Fios service --- especially for the fact that the company has been ignoring these complaints for the past three years.
> 
> Anyone that can assist?


I contacted Tivo Corporate today at 408-519-9100 about thsi very issue. I've got a Verizon DVR and two Tivo HDs. The Verizon unit isn't great, but it's really reliable and does not ever have this problem. The 2 THDs are experiencing more and more pixelation problems. It's getting really bad. Verizon won't help any more because they say this is a product quality issue with Tivo and that Tivo is responsible for fixing this. Tivo today was of very little value and I'm not expecting much out of them. I'm going to try the attenuator route at my own cost, but because of the signal readings on my units I'm not expecting the issue to be resolved. I'm very unhappy with Tivo at the moment. It appears to be a very clear product design flaw, otherwise the Verizon Moto units would also experience issues. There is nothing proprietary about those moto units - they are the same units being used by Comcast for example. Since the issue is a "tuning" issue it affects live viewing. The core product is failing and Tivo has yet in my case to even attempt to resolve it other than telling me to call Verizon. They told me today that any costs associated with rolling a truck to me are my responsibility.


----------



## bicker

More specifically, the TiVo is far more sensitive than, i.e., not as robust as, the standard cable company boxes, and too much so, given the typical variation of signal quality we see out in the wild. Of course, that doesn't mean it cannot work -- it does in most cases -- but there does seem to me to be a difference in the extent to which the TiVo's are subject to pixelization as compared to cable company boxes.


----------



## bkdtv

wm2008 said:


> I contacted Tivo Corporate today at 408-519-9100 about thsi very issue. I've got a Verizon DVR and two Tivo HDs. The Verizon unit isn't great, but it's really reliable and does not ever have this problem. The 2 THDs are experiencing more and more pixelation problems. It's getting really bad. Verizon won't help any more because they say this is a product quality issue with Tivo and that Tivo is responsible for fixing this. Tivo today was of very little value and I'm not expecting much out of them. I'm going to try the attenuator route at my own cost, but because of the signal readings on my units I'm not expecting the issue to be resolved. I'm very unhappy with Tivo at the moment. It appears to be a very clear product design flaw, otherwise the Verizon Moto units would also experience issues. There is nothing proprietary about those moto units - they are the same units being used by Comcast for example. Since the issue is a "tuning" issue it affects live viewing. The core product is failing and Tivo has yet in my case to even attempt to resolve it other than telling me to call Verizon. They told me today that any costs associated with rolling a truck to me are my responsibility.


An attenuator solves the problem for most, but not everyone. It's still unclear why some people still have problems after attenuating their signal.

It is certainly frustrating when you are seeing an unwatchable picture on your screen due to a signal issue.

Before you put all the blame on TiVo though, consider that they completed the design for the TivoHD before FiOS TV became readily available. FiOS TV only became available to a significant number of potential customers in 2007, and the TivoHD was released in July, 2007. The actual hardware design was probably completed 6-12 months before that.

The signal levels coming out of a Verizon FiOS ONT are basically unheard of when it comes to other cable providers. It is unlikely that TiVo would have tested anything during the design phase would have prepared them for the kind of signal levels -- typically between +14dB and +24dB -- coming out of a FiOS ONT. Most cable providers put out a signal between -6dB and +6dB.

_The signal levels at the far end of this range can also cause problems for the FiOS' Motorola DVR, although with the Motorola, the problem first takes the form of stutter (dropped frames). Pixelization only results with the strongest of signals._

I have one of the circa-2006 Motorola 610 ONTs which output an average signal of around +22 dB. The ONT / splitter output isn't 100% linear across all frequencies, so some channels were +18dB and others were as high as +25dB. Even with two splitters subtracting -3dB to -4dB each, I had terrible pixelization on perhaps a dozen HD channels with the TivoHD. These were the channels that were output by the ONT in the +24dB to +25dB range. In fact, this signal was strong enough to cause problems for Verizon's Motorola QIP6416; on the 6416, I saw dropped frames / stutter on many of the same channels that were causing problems for the TivoHD.

With the Motorola DVR, I needed a -3dB attenuator to eliminate the dropped frames / stutter. To completely eliminate the pixelization on a TivoHD XL, I needed a -10dB attenuator. If you add in the two splitters I have, that's a total of of -16dB to -18dB attenuation. Even with all that, the TiVo still reports the signal on many of my channels at 92-95, and the channels that used to have problems are reported with a signal strength of 99-100. If those channels are 99-100 (out of 100) now, imagine what they must have been before I added the -10dB attenuator.

It's impossible to say how exactly much attenuation you will need because the signal strength varies by the ONT model. Verizon has gone through several different ONTs in the past three years. At around +22dB average output, the Motorola 610 that I have is at the extreme end of the spectrum. My understanding is that the latest ONTs output closer to +16dB. Depending on your installation / splitters, you may not need any attenuation at all. Or you may need -6dB to -10dB. When the installer comes to install your CableCards, I would ask them to install a -6dB attenuator right off the bat, and I would ask them to leave you a spare -10dB attenuator in case you need it later.

In a perfect world, the TiVo would be able to adjust the sensitivity of its tuner based on the signal levels it detects. Or at the very least, adjust the sensitivity of the tuner when you select Verizon FiOS in Guided Setup. But we don't really know what kind of system-level options they have with the tuner they opted to select for the design. It may not be possible to adjust tuner sensitivity to the degree necessary to support FiOS without an attenuator.

Now that TiVo is aware of the issue, one would certainly hope that a future model would incorporate a tuner that is able to handle stronger signals without the need for the user (or installer) to add an attenuator to achieve an acceptable picture.


----------



## wm2008

Well, I appreciate your perspective bkdtv but I don't necessarily agree. Here are my issues - and a clarification for you. The clarification is that I already HAVE the cablecards installed, and have had for many months. So there is nobody coming to my home unless I somehow get it scheduled and pay for it.

The reason that I strongly believe that Tivo is completely to blame here is because reasonably high quality engineering knows what a "FMEA" and a "C&E Matrix" is. Apparently Motorola does, as the 6416-2 units which were designed even before the Tivo HD can deal with the "Verizon signal issue" with no visible downside to the customer. The Tivo units cannot. The Moto 6416-2 is the exact same unit - with no design changes - as has been used for example by Comcast.

I have a 612 ONT - not the often blamed 610 or 611 units. Signal strength is not necessarily consistent across all channel blocks. This means that it is in fact possible that attenuating the "problem" channels may in fact introduce current or future problems with other channels which are not at this time having a problem. The attenuation is a bandaid if it works - nothing more. I'm hoping it works, but honestly do not have high hopes. I understand that design problems can happen, but I am incredibly disappointed in the attempts to defer blame onto Verizon and the apparent lack of urgency toward supporting existing and paying customers. Also, this past weekend my "problem channels" show up with a signal strength of peak 94, but really averaged between 60-80 - _at the exact same time that the pixelation was happening_


----------



## bkdtv

wm2008 said:


> Apparently Motorola does, as the 6416-2 units which were designed even before the Tivo HD can deal with the "Verizon signal issue" with no visible downside to the customer. The Tivo units cannot. The Moto 6416-2 is the exact same unit - with no design changes - as has been used for example by Comcast.


The QIP6416 used by Verizon is very similar in design to that used by Comcast, but not the same. It adds MoCA (used by Verizon to download guide information) and it has more memory than the earliest versions of the DCT6416. It also uses firmware and settings customized for Verizon.

Even then, the Motorola DVRs still have problems with the unattenuated signal from some ONTs, like the Motorola 610. Verizon installers are instructed to install attenuators for the Motorola STBs/DVRs with those ONTs.



wm2008 said:


> Also, this past weekend my "problem channels" show up with a signal strength of peak 94, but really averaged between 60-80 - _at the exact same time that the pixelation was happening_


When the tuner in the TivoHD is "overpowered," it doesn't show a stable signal of 100. That is responsible for some of the confusion on this subject. People look at the TiVo diagnostics screen, see a signal that alternates between 40 and 80 (or even 0 and 60), and they their signal is too low. The opposite is usually true.

On the channels that exhibited pixelization for me before the attenuator, my signal would constantly alternate between 30-50 and 80-95. Once the -10dB attenuator was added to the cable, I got a constant 99-100 on those channels, and 92-95 on most of the others.


----------



## substance12

bkdtv said:


> On the channels that exhibited pixelization for me before the attenuator, my signal would constantly alternate between 30-50 and 80-95. Once the -10dB attenuator was added to the cable, I got a constant 99-100 on those channels, and 92-95 on most of the others.


odd. when I added a diplexer/attenuator, the signals that were wildly fluxuating did not go back to the 90s. they stayed low but the fluxuations were less.


----------



## wm2008

bkdtv said:


> The QIP6416 used by Verizon is very similar in design to that used by Comcast, but not the same. It adds MoCA (used by Verizon to download guide information) and it has more memory than the earliest versions of the DCT6416. It also uses firmware and settings customized for Verizon.
> 
> Even then, the Motorola DVRs still have problems with the unattenuated signal from some ONTs, like the Motorola 610. Verizon installers are instructed to install attenuators for the Motorola STBs/DVRs with those ONTs.
> .


Ah, but there's the rub. The tuner is in fact the same. I'm not disputing that there may be more memory than _the earliest versions_, but memory is not the issue here, correct? And similar comcast units have similar memory capacity, correct? This would be more related to buffering than to tuning. As for firmware, well, assuming that a firmware change could correct this than Tivo is even more to blame than before. But I don't think that's the case. I think this is a tuner design issue whereby it is far too sensitive. As mentioned, I have a 612 ONT - which is not covered by the recommendation to install attenuators.

The other problem is that adding attenuators simply applies a bandaid to this which can in fact cause problems on OTHER channels. This has been reported on this site. Tivo should fix the problem. Not rely on Verizon for a bandaid. Frankly, if Tivo were so certain of the issue, they should send out attenuators at no cost. Heck, they should package them with the Tivo HD!


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## NJRonbo

Over a week ago I sent snail mail letters to both the CEO and Vice President
of Distribution/Sales for the Tivo Corporation.

It was a polite, yet pointed letter about Tivo's lack of addressing problems
that have been reported to them for well over the past year or two.

Thus far, I have received no response.

I have posted this issue on Tivo's own forum, and it comes of great surprise
to me when I am told that Tivo management doesn't even read nor respond
to what gets posted there.

In fact, talking with long-time Tivo users, it seems the company is bent on
selling more Tivo units with less emphasis on customer support. 

I bought over $1200 worth of Tivo product and services that will be returned
and canceled should I continue to get no reply from the corporate office. At
that point, I will be sure to post letters of warning to potential Tivo/Fios customers
on every website across the Internet that deals with Tivo discussion.

Personally, I am very upset that I made this sort of investment with a company
I had thought were a little more quality conscious than they now appear to be.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

NJRonbo said:


> I have posted this issue on Tivo's own forum, and it comes of great surprise
> to me when I am told that Tivo management doesn't even read nor respond
> to what gets posted there.
> 
> ...
> 
> Personally, I am very upset that I made this sort of investment with a company
> I had thought were a little more quality conscious than they now appear to be.


Your post highlights the key failing that TiVo has. It's not that the box has problems, it's that these problems have existed for well over 1 1/2 years and TiVo has done *nothing* about them. TiVo management obviously just doesn't give a flying f*** about this. They're glad-handing twits who just want to keep making "deals" and keep adding useless features that are poorly implemented.

And, just to forestall any comments about how this isn't really TiVo's fault, I say: *Bull****.* If the Motorola box works much much better than the TiVo, then it's de facto TiVo's problem. I'm really tired of reading about +dB, -dB, attenuate this, diplex that, etc ad nauseum.

They should just fix the f'n hardware. Period. And then, just for grins, they should squash a few software bugs.


----------



## bicker

While I think your comments are over-the-top, I think you're right that TiVo should have acknowledged the fact that the S3 and HD are not sufficiently robust, and should have been/should be working on that. I contrast this issue with the silliness regarding QAM mapping, for example -- it really helps show the types of issues that TiVo *should *be working on (pixelization).


----------



## wm2008

Actually I think his comments were spot on, though I also agree with you that other issues (such as QAM mapping) are relatively insignificant. Core product reliability and performance issues are being swept under the rug all while new (some would say useless) features are being added. Tivo has not stepped up to address the issue and insists on abandoning customers and telling them to call Verizon. The actual adjectives used in the previous post might be a bit emotional, but the meaning is no less clear and relevant. If VZ were to enable eSATA storage support and MRV at this point, I would probably abandon Tivo without question. I would definitely miss the Tivo UI, but I'd be much happier to be able to watch content. Even live content, which I cannot reliably do with my Tivos.


----------



## substance12

I'm having a fios rep come over to give me their HD box as well as 2 new cable cards. from my viewing, w/o attentuators and a diplexer, I have pixelation on 3 channels. 1 is cleared up using the attentuators, the other 2 are "better'. i'm getting cold feet in that perhaps the new cable cards might be worse...

thoughts?


----------



## jtrain

wsc123 said:


> I have been having a similar problem as described by subgenius below. I'm in the Portland, OR area and for the past few weeks have been getting a lot of intermittent pixelation and audio drop-outs on the HD local channels around the low 500MHz frequency range (particularly on channel 508). Verizon has been out twice to try to resolve the problem, but no success. I have an HD Tivo with two single-stream cable cards.
> 
> The SNR on these channels is 31-32dB, but the signal strength is much lower than on the channels that don't have the problem, usually around 60-70, but often dropping below 40 or as low as 0, resulting in hundreds of thousands of RS errors.
> 
> Are others in the Portland area still having this problem? Does anyone know how to get this fixed? Every time Verizon sends out a technician, the problem doesn't seem to be happening while they are at my house, but then it starts up again a few hours later. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.


I'm in the Oregon market as well (beaverton area) and I had attenuation on my S3 (w/ cablecards) and no attenution on my upstairs THD (w/ cablecards). I was noticing the low signal levels on the local network HD channels myself (even to the point of losing season pass recordings altogether), so I decided to remove the attenuation (-12db) from my S3, which bumped the signal level considerably on the suspect channels and also bumped all of the other channels up to the mid 90's to 100. I've been happy with my S3 since then.

Alternatively, I placed the -12db attenuator on my upstairs THD to see if that would resolve the pixelation issues on the THD up there, and what do you know, voila, it was fixed.

Obviously I'm not sure why that fixed it on either TiVo, but needless to say, I'm happy with it, and so is wifey. Is there a technical explanation? probably, but I'm happy as a clam right now. The upstairs THD is closest to the ONT physically, while the S3 is the furthest away in the house from the ONT. I did not have any coax replaced when I switched from Comcast to FiOS TV.


----------



## NJRonbo

In order to be completely fair to both sides of this situation, I thought I would bring you all up-to-date...

In response to the letter I sent to the CEO and VP of Sales at Tivo corporate, I received a call from their executive offices the other evening.
Basically, there is very little Tivo can do to fix the problems with Fios. Although they have been aware of the Fios situation for some time, the problem is that their units are also used with cable services, and if there were any modifications done to their tuners, it would jeopardize the performance with those cable services. In other words, they claim they can't alter their tuners to work with one service without affecting the other.

The tech that called me was very knowledgeable. I told him I put a -10b attenuator at the Tivo connection and that most all the pixelation has disappeared except for some fleeting pixelation that comes and goes. The tech said rather than throw another attenuator on the problem and risk losing the signal on some channels, to use a small piece of coax and a barrel connector to bring the signal down just ever more slightly. He said that may resolve the problem.

I will say that they were generous enough to give me an extra 30 days on trial service and the option to return the hardware directly to them if I am not able to resolve the situation.


----------



## wm2008

NJRonbo said:


> In order to be completely fair to both sides of this situation, I thought I would bring you all up-to-date...
> 
> In response to the letter I sent to the CEO and VP of Sales at Tivo corporate, I received a call from their executive offices the other evening.
> Basically, there is very little Tivo can do to fix the problems with Fios. Although they have been aware of the Fios situation for some time, the problem is that their units are also used with cable services, and if there were any modifications done to their tuners, it would jeopardize the performance with those cable services. In other words, they claim they can't alter their tuners to work with one service without affecting the other.
> 
> The tech that called me was very knowledgeable. I told him I put a -10b attenuator at the Tivo connection and that most all the pixelation has disappeared except for some fleeting pixelation that comes and goes. The tech said rather than throw another attenuator on the problem and risk losing the signal on some channels, to use a small piece of coax and a barrel connector to bring the signal down just ever more slightly. He said that may resolve the problem.
> 
> I will say that they were generous enough to give me an extra 30 days on trial service and the option to return the hardware directly to them if I am not able to resolve the situation.


In response to the post above, I'm sorry to see that you've swallowed the total BS that the Tivo pointy-heads fed you. "Tivo cannot fix Fios problems"? Really? You now agree that it's a Verizon problem?

Here is the problem with their lies. They claim that they cannot modify their units to allow them to operate correctly on Fios without creating a situation where they then don't work on other cable systems. Well, perhaps they should call Motorola. That would be the manufacturer of the 6416-2 which does not experience pixelation on the same exact Fios system. It's also the unit used by Comcast, Time Warner, etc in different parts of the country - NOT on Fios. Somehow Motorola understands that the tuner cannot catastrohpically fail when signal strength variation occurs. That would probably be because they understand the concepts of 6 sigma, C&E matrices, FMEAs, and other quality tools to be used in engineering and manufacturing environments. Let's be clear. This is NOT a Verizon issue. The TivoHDs have also been reported to have the exact same issue with OTA reception as a result of tuners being altogether too sensitive. Who then does Tivo say is responsible?

To be clear, Tivo MUST be able to play nicely on other peoples networks, such as Verizon. Without Verizon, Comcast, etc - Tivo is nothing but a hunk of worthless circuitry. By failing to properly design products and then subsequently failing to provide adequate support, Tivo is isolating themselves. I have zero interest in playing a finger pointing game between two vendors who I am paying. 30 days of service is a worthless gesture intended to reduce stress, but in no way serves to remotely address the issue. In my case, I've been listening to Tivo make worthless promises for over a year to fix the issue - and I purchased my devices from a retailer. For me that means that I made a mistake in believing that Tivo was still the same company that they used to be, and that they would resolve the issues. I am now faced with abandoning Tivo and losing my investment of 2 Tivo HDs, as well as all the service fees I've paid for over a year with absolutely no fixes (other than replacing one of the units that failed completely). Until Tivo steps up to the plate and accepts responsibility for this, I strongly recommend avoiding Tivo products for anyone who is actively considering such items at this time.


----------



## webin

wm2008 said:


> I am now faced with abandoning Tivo and losing my investment of 2 Tivo HDs, as well as all the service fees I've paid for over a year with absolutely no fixes (other than replacing one of the units that failed completely).


I hope you lose a ton of money when your temper boils over and you finally give up the Tivos. Karma's a ***** sometimes.

We all understand your frustration. We all understand your point of view. We don't all agree with you 100%. Yes, the tuner's in the THD aren't a perfect solution for FiOS, but the experiences you've had with your specific tivos, tvs, and set top boxes have really skewed your point of view. It's NOT just tivo hd units. In fact, that Moto box you say is so bulletproof is probably experiencing the same RS Uncorrected errors the THDs are, but doing something to hide them (dropping frames perhaps?). Rich Adams tried to explain this to you in the other thread: Just because your equipment is showing you one thing does not mean it's the universal truth. Most importantly, you MUST realize there are thousands upon thousands of TivoHD units out there on FiOS that are performing perfectly.

What's more, your point of view has skewed what you believe to be the facts about Tivo the company. They have acknowledged the issue for a long time. They have had engineers look at as many "pixellating" boxes as they can. They have determined that the best solution is to attenuate the signal. Don't believe me? Call Tivo tech support and ask. Tivo has been forthcoming and open, as demonstrated by the phone call mentioned above. It should be noted that the "best solution" of attenuating was determined by looking at many factors. They could have people install a dollar worth of equipment, or they could issue a multi-million dollar recall that may or may not fix the problem, but would definitely sink the company. I attenuated, and I'm happy with my tivo.

Stop letting your anger rule your emotions, look at all the facts in a logical manner, and if it doesn't make sense to keep your tivos, get rid of them.

I'm keeping mine, and will continue to buy them as often as the need arises.


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## bicker

webin said:


> We all understand your frustration. We all understand your point of view. We don't all agree with you 100%.


That's a good point: I find myself agreeing with OP precisely 50%. 



webin said:


> In fact, that Moto box you say is so bulletproof is probably experiencing the same RS Uncorrected errors the THDs are, but doing something to hide them (dropping frames perhaps?).


Which would be less objectionable to more consumers, so there would be no reason for TiVo to take that approach as well. How a device *handles *failure is as important as how infrequently it experiences failure. I remember teaching this engineering lore over 25 years ago, when I worked at Bell Laboratories. I'm sure designing for robustness is still part of the engineering curriculum.


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## wm2008

webin said:


> I hope you lose a ton of money when your temper boils over and you finally give up the Tivos. Karma's a ***** sometimes..


Nice. Real nice. So the device has a known issue and your Fanboy response is to blame the poster. Very very helpful. If I were as juvenile as you I would respond with something like I hope your Tivos fail catastrophically tonight and you experience the issues that so many others experience. Maybe a better description of "Karma" would be that Tivo would see the results they deserve for abandoning customers. IMHO. Obviously not your.



webin said:


> We all understand your frustration.. We all understand your point of view.


I don't believe you do.



webin said:


> the experiences you've had with your specific tivos, tvs, and set top boxes have really skewed your point of view. It's NOT just tivo hd units. In fact, that Moto box you say is so bulletproof is probably experiencing the same RS Uncorrected errors the THDs are, but doing something to hide them (dropping frames perhaps?).


This illustrates how you don't understand my perspective. I wouldn't care if there were some dropped frames that I didn't notice. I do care that last night again my family and I attempted to view the most recent NCIS (which the kids really like) and it was totally unviewable with massive pixelation. As Bicker noted, you are clearly not an engineer, as you would otherwise realize that how devices handle failure modes is every bit as important as how what causes them to fail. The moto unit deals with this failure mode incredibly better than the Tivo unit - which frankly just fails and leaves the owner without recourse.



webin said:


> What's more, your point of view has skewed what you believe to be the facts about Tivo the company. They have acknowledged the issue for a long time. They have had engineers look at as many "pixellating" boxes as they can. They have determined that the best solution is to attenuate the signal. Don't believe me? Call Tivo tech support and ask. Tivo has been forthcoming and open, as demonstrated by the phone call mentioned above. It should be noted that the "best solution" of attenuating was determined by looking at many factors. They could have people install a dollar worth of equipment, or they could issue a multi-million dollar recall that may or may not fix the problem, but would definitely sink the company. I attenuated, and I'm happy with my tivo.


I'm happy that you're happy. Nonetheless, I totally disagree with your description of the situation above. First of all, this has been going on for over a year. Tivo has responded as quickly as - well - they haven't. Let's get first things first. The issue could be designed out of the unit. They failed to do this to begin with. Moto didn't. Second. The attenuation "solution" is not a total solution. It creates a band-aid that "sometimes" works, and "sometimes" doesn't. In some cases it started working but stopped later due to changes in SNR. Not an issue with the Moto design. In other cases attenuation allowed some channels to start working, but reduced signal on other channels creating a new problem. Known, documented fact. It's a dice roll. Third. IF it's really a problem and the Tivo solution, then SEND USERS SOME ATTENUATORS WHEN THEY CALL. DON'T BE SO DARNED WORTHLESS AND STOP TELLING CUSTOMERS TO CALL VERIZION. I wouldn't be as critical of Tivo if they even made that effort, but they haven't. And frankly I see no evidence whatsoever having talked to Tivo a number of times about this issue (with corresponding ticket numbers) that they have done anything to support their customers. This doesnt' even consider the fact that the Tivo tuner ALSO experiences OTA issues with high signal strength. I suppose Tivo would have users call every broadcast channel when that occurs? That's a real solution.



webin said:


> Stop letting your anger rule your emotions, look at all the facts in a logical manner, and if it doesn't make sense to keep your tivos, get rid of them.
> 
> I'm keeping mine, and will continue to buy them as often as the need arises.


Right back at you. Stop letting your fanboy love of Tivo keep you from looking at them just like you would any other company that you provide product from. Here's my position - and it isn't much different from my perspective about what has happened to the auto industry. When imports were becoming far more competitive in the US, some people walked around screaming "buy american" - and took the heat off of detroit when they had the means to really change processes and revamp. We didn't do it and we let them off the hook. Now, when push comes to shove they can't compete AND they don't have the resources to restructure without a ton of help.

Tivo is now in a market where there is real competition, and where the competition has some direct advantages. Maybe not to you, but most certainly (as evidenced by fact) to so many others. Abandoning customers and providing less than properly engineered product should not be rewarded by blanket acceptance. If they continue down this path, I fear that you won't have the opportunity to buy that many more devices from them in the future.


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## ah30k

webin said:


> I hope you lose a ton of money when your temper boils over and you finally give up the Tivos. Karma's a ***** sometimes....


Stopped reading this post after the first sentence. What a di*k!

Hoping for someone to lose a ton. Real nice.

I hope you have a wonderful day.


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## bicker

ah30k said:


> Hoping for someone to lose a ton. Real nice.


It would be nice to lose 20-30 pounds though.


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## webin

ah30k said:


> Hoping for someone to lose a ton. Real nice.


I admit, it was a pretty d*ck thing to do. I'm sorry. Whether or not I'm a Tivo Fanboy or not is a matter of perspective, but I responded to wm in the same manner he was posting. It's not what I want for this board.

What I have a real problem with, is reading post after post that is nothing more than whining and complaining and spouting things that aren't necessarily true.

Vehemently complaining on this board doesn't help solve problems. It only helps the poster blow off some steam. I believe there are better ways to do that, and we shouldn't have to read it in every post someone writes. I'm reading a book called "Shut Up, Stop Whining, and Get a Life" by Larry Winget, which teaches that whining and foot stomping doesn't change anything. You actually have to do something if you want to make things better. I might suggest buying some attenuators.

And now I'm going to remove myself from this thread (and the sticky thread) for a while. I really enjoyed the months of troubleshooting where we searched for causation and solution, but that's not what's happening anymore. It's just a bunch of whining.


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## substance12

I had a FIOS tech who came over today who had a lot of experience with tivo. Here are the highlights:

- use splitters to attenuate as oppose to attenuators. his logic was that the splitters are more effective in knocking down the signal across all applicable frequencies. attenuators did not do as good a job.
- he experimented with various splitters and barrel connectors trying to find the sweet spot
- the best results were a combination of attenuator, diplexer, and splitter
- he left me 3 splitters to play with if I wasn't happy with the results
- my original signal was hot... even for fios boxes. the first tech didn't tell me this.
- he claimed there was a sweet spot with tivos... but i think we already know that.

i'm going to echo what another person in this thread said. tivo knows about this. they made their box to be compatible with cable companies... not fios. 

he also said the most effective complaints to verizon are via letter. send an angry letter to the thousand oaks, CA address (i can't find it at the moment). Now i'm not implying this is all verizon's fault and you should ***** to them about it. i have other complaints with them... this last bit of info is just fyi.


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## lrhorer

substance12 said:


> why would placing the diplexer after the ONT vs at the tivo make a difference?


Well, if one has more than one TiVo, then putting the filter before the splitter eliminates the need for two or more filters. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter where the unit goes from a signal quality perspective.


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## richsadams

webin said:


> What I have a real problem with, is reading post after post that is nothing more than whining and complaining and spouting things that aren't necessarily true.
> 
> Vehemently complaining on this board doesn't help solve problems. It only helps the poster blow off some steam. I believe there are better ways to do that, and we shouldn't have to read it in every post someone writes.


+1 :up:


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## lrhorer

wm2008 said:


> The reason that I strongly believe that Tivo is completely to blame here is because reasonably high quality engineering knows what a "FMEA" and a "C&E Matrix" is.


What utter nonsense! No amount of clever engineering on earth can avoid physical limitations. Indeed, at its heart, all engineering is about dealing with physical limitations - with a hard eye on implementation costs. The simple, unalterable fact is that the amount of 3rd order distortion in a receiver or other active device increases 3 dB for every 1 dB increase in signal level, resulting in a 2 dB decrease in the signal / distrotion figure for every 1 dB increase in level. The amount of distortion also increases as 20 times the base ten logarithm of the bandwidth (or number of carriers). Finally, for a given receiver design, it increases 2 dB for every 1dB increase in sensitivity. Thus, any designer is faced with a simple, unalterable choice. One can deploy a sensitive receiver capable of dealing with low signal levels, or one can deploy an insensitive receiver capable of dealing with higher signal levels. Note even the most insensitive receiver will overload with high enough signal levels. Industry standard CATV specifications call for an ideal minimum of -10 dBmV on any digital channel behind a receiver. To deliver that ideal, most CATV systems design to a minimum of -3 dBmV (+7 dBmV for analog channels) at the subscriber tap on the lowest frequency and around -1 dBmV (+9 dBmV on analog channels) at the highest frequency. Since subscriber taps are engineered in 3 dB increments, this means the output at the low end should never be more than 0 dBmV at the low frequencies unless the signal has a reverse tilt (near the end of the feeder line), in whihc case the high end should never be more than +2 dBmV. It is assumed the cable drop length will be about 35 meters maximum, and the customer will have 2 TVs. In the late 1980s, many CATV systems increased their subscriber tap levels by 3 dB to allow for customers with 4 TVs. Note it is not a simple matter to increase subscriber tap outputs. The number of subscribers serviced by a feeder realm can drop by more than 75%, greatly increasing the number of required amplifiers, thereby increasing the amount of noise and distortion. The standard levels are a compromise between being the cost of delivering service to the average user versus the cost of supplying individual amplifiers to those customers falling outside the norm. FIOS does not suffer this limitation, so they can simply eliminate the need for subscriber amplifiers by delivering ungodly signal levels to the customer's demark. They also stuck a carrier way up above normal RF frequencies, one I suspect happens to be very near the TiVo's RF section's IF carrier. Dealing with an Out of Band input carrier near or above the IF carrier of any superheterodyne receiver can splash distortion products all over the map.

The situation is exacerbated by the very wide bandwidth of the FIOS spectrum. Their spectrum is roughly 133 carriers, and they load it to the gills. Now, that is mostly a good thing for FIOS subscribers, but a spectrum with 133 carriers exhibits a whopping 42 dB greater 3rd order distortion than a system with a single 6 MHz carrier. Most CATV systems only deliver at most 110 carriers, and nothing even close to 1200Mhz.

The bottom line is TiVo is left deciding between using a tuner which can deal well with the (extremely common) problem of low signal levels, whether OTA or on CATV systems, or designing for FIOS subscribers, who make up a very small percentage of their subscriber base. They cannot do both.



wm2008 said:


> Apparently Motorola does, as the 6416-2 units which were designed even before the Tivo HD can deal with the "Verizon signal issue" with no visible downside to the customer. The Tivo units cannot.


What evidence do you have to support this? Have you tried both the Motorola and TiVo units side-by-side with inputs of -30 dBmV to compare their performance?



wm2008 said:


> The Moto 6416-2 is the exact same unit - with no design changes - as has been used for example by Comcast.


Which proves nothing. If Comcast's subscriber only has 1 or 2 TVs and their plant has been well designed, and the subscriber tap is not too far away, then everything will work just fine. If not, Comcast will simply install a house amplifier, just as TWC had to do in my house.



wm2008 said:


> I have a 612 ONT - not the often blamed 610 or 611 units. Signal strength is not necessarily consistent across all channel blocks.


If not, then FIOS has more problems they need to fix. The difference between the lowest level and the highest level of any carrier in the spectrum should never under any circumstances exceed 9 dB. The difference in level between any two adjacent carriers should never exceed 4 dB. Those are the FCC specifications.



wm2008 said:


> This means that it is in fact possible that attenuating the "problem" channels may in fact introduce current or future problems with other channels which are not at this time having a problem.


Which is one of several reasons why an attenuator is not the best idea, unless signal levels are high across the band. An equalizer or an equalizer in conjunction with an attenuator may be a more appropriate solution to signal level issues, and an appropriate band pass filter is indicated if there are any high level out of band carriers present.



wm2008 said:


> The attenuation is a bandaid if it works - nothing more. I'm hoping it works, but honestly do not have high hopes. I understand that design problems can happen, but I am incredibly disappointed in the attempts to defer blame onto Verizon


It is a simple fact: Verizon's signals lie *WAY* outside normal industry specifications. Fortunately, equalizing signals, attenuating them, and removing spurious OOB signals is easy and cheap. Dealing with low signal levels is much more expensive and difficult. Dealing with a low S/N is impossible, and unfortunately there are people out there who suffer this issue. They are really stuck.



wm2008 said:


> and the apparent lack of urgency toward supporting existing and paying customers. Also, this past weekend my "problem channels" show up with a signal strength of peak 94, but really averaged between 60-80 - _at the exact same time that the pixelation was happening_


The TiVo does not measure signal strength. It measures S/N, which is a completely different animal. Given FIOS's system design, a very high S/N is not surprising, and although a high S/N is anything but a bad thing, it is not a comprehensive measure of signal quality.


----------



## lrhorer

bkdtv said:


> An attenuator solves the problem for most, but not everyone. It's still unclear why some people still have problems after attenuating their signal.


I cannot speak with 100% authority, since I don't have any ONTs on the bench, but from reports on this very website I think the answer is pretty clear. Some ONTs produce an Out of BAnd signal up above 1000MHz. I suspect that, combined with high signal levels and possibly equalization issues are the culprit. Since an attenuator only addresses the issue of high signal levels, it is far from surprising it cannot always solve the problem.



bkdtv said:


> Even with all that, the TiVo still reports the signal on many of my channels at 92-95, and the channels that used to have problems are reported with a signal strength of 99-100. If those channels are 99-100 (out of 100) now, imagine what they must have been before I added the -10dB attenuator.


The Tivo does not report signal strength. It reports S/N. In a hypothetically noiseless receiver in a hypothetically noiseless environment, a signal can have a very high S/N, even if it is infinitesimally small. In practice, both the environment and the receiver have a certain noise floor. This means even if presented with a "perfect" signal whose S/N exceeds 80dB, the S/N measured at the receiver will be considerably lower. It will, however, track precisely with signal level, meaning the S/N will increase precisely 1 dB with a 1 dB increase in signal. Generally speaking, most real-world digital signals are probably going to have a S/N of around 45 dB or so. Given their systems topology, a FIOS signal may actually be somewhat higher, perhaps even 60 or 65 dB.



bkdtv said:


> In a perfect world, the TiVo would be able to adjust the sensitivity of its tuner based on the signal levels it detects.


That is nonsense given the definition of "sensitivity". The sensitivity of a tuner is defined as the minimum signal level it can recover with a given set of quality specifications. It is by definition not "adjustable". The TiVo, like most modern receivers is quite capable of receiving signals over a very broad range of levels, generally much broader than an analog TV tuner. Like any tuner, however, there are overload levels above which the TiVo's tuners cannot operate reliably. On any receiver, those overload levels are dependent upon a number of factors, including signal level, total input power, bandwidth, carrier spacing, etc.



bkdtv said:


> Or at the very least, adjust the sensitivity of the tuner when you select Verizon FiOS in Guided Setup. But we don't really know what kind of system-level options they have with the tuner they opted to select for the design.


Yeah, we do. The sensitivity of a tuner is a fixed result of its design. As I said, it cannot be made variable. While it is hypothetically quite possible to insert a variable attenuator in front of the tuner section, doing so inserts its own set of issues into the situation, not the least of which is an increase in cost.



bkdtv said:


> Now that TiVo is aware of the issue, one would certainly hope that a future model would incorporate a tuner that is able to handle stronger signals without the need for the user (or installer) to add an attenuator to achieve an acceptable picture.


I doubt it. Doing so would require utilizing a less sensitive receiver, which would only serve to have other users start complaining while the FIOS users stop complaining, robbing Peter to pay Paul, as it were. What might be practical, especially in light of the advent of SDV, is to incorporate a low pass filter in front of the tuner section. This would havea very low impact - perhaps 1 dB - on sensitivity, would not affect either OTA or CATV users in general, and would solve many FIOS user's problems out of hand. For the rest, attenuating the signal to industry standard levels is simply not difficult or expensive, and any subscriber unwilling to take the minuscule trouble to do so is just being obtuse and indolent.


----------



## lrhorer

substance12 said:


> I had a FIOS tech who came over today who had a lot of experience with tivo.


His "experience" leaves a great deal to be desired.



substance12 said:


> - use splitters to attenuate as oppose to attenuators. his logic was that the splitters are more effective in knocking down the signal across all applicable frequencies. attenuators did not do as good a job.


This is utter nonsense. Attenuators are extremely simple passive devices whose frequency response is very flat - far flatter than any splitter. Within their specified bandwidth, they will attenuate the signal by precisely the specified amount within limits defined by the precision of the attenuator. Of course, one may acquire both low and high precision attenuators, and the band specification will vary from one attenuator to another, but even the most generic, least expensive CATV attenuators will perform admirably from 5 MHz to 1000Mhz or better. By comparison, a high quality splitter will typically have up to 2 dB higher loss at 1000MHz than at 50 MHz.



substance12 said:


> - he experimented with various splitters and barrel connectors trying to find the sweet spot


As a general rule of thumb, one is always best served to minimize the number of devices and especially the number of connectors. At best, each device and each connector represents an additional point of failure, and connector issues are the most prevalent cause of signal problems.



substance12 said:


> - he claimed there was a sweet spot with tivos... but i think we already know that.


While the Automatic Gain Controls on modern receivers - including the TiVo - are quite effective, and while digital receivers enjoy the benefits of digital signal recovery, one of which is a wide range of acceptable signal levels, every receiver has an optimum receive level. The problem is, with a broadband receiver that optimum value drops with increasing numbers of carriers. With analog TVs the situatin was simple. All TVs by design (and law) had an optimum input level of 0dB mV, and OTA carriers were very sparse. Most TVs were able to produce excellent pictures with levels between -3 and +15 dBmV. With the advent of CATV and its highly packed spectrum, many TVs began having problems with levels above +6 or even +3 dBmV.



substance12 said:


> i'm going to echo what another person in this thread said. tivo knows about this. they made their box to be compatible with cable companies... not fios.


Well, I don't know if they "know" about it. There are a large number of anecdotal reports of problems from FIOS subscribers. The suggestion - even a very strong one - that a certain sector of subscribers are having trouble is 
not in any way diagnostic of a root cause, even if numbers of them report alleviating the issue through some means. Surely, it is pertinent information, but before a company hauls off and implements system wide design changes, they need to have confirmation on the bench.


----------



## bicker

lrhorer said:


> What utter nonsense! No amount of clever engineering on earth can avoid physical limitations.


Go back, then, earlier in the thread, to the poster who commented how that the Motorola boxes don't exhibit this problem as much, and explain how is it that people don't notice problems with Motorola boxes as much as they do with TiVo boxes. As long as there is a difference, there, and TiVo isn't the winner, then TiVo has a problem.

Clever engineering involves more than manipulating physical qualities.


----------



## lrhorer

bicker said:


> Go back, then, earlier in the thread, to the poster who commented how that the Motorola boxes don't exhibit this problem as much,


No, thanks. Once again, however, I can only suggest you read *MY* posts, wherein I explain the fact and why TiVo would be potentially foolish to follow suit.



bicker said:


> Clever engineering involves more than manipulating physical qualities.


Right. And you have been a professional communications engineer for how long? Your degree in electrical engineering or physics is from which university? You have designed how many RF or digital circuits?


----------



## bicker

And you've effectively shown why electrical engineers with discipline-induced myopia, who therefore don't understand systems engineering, aren't good product team leaders.


----------



## lrhorer

webin said:


> What I have a real problem with, is reading post after post that is nothing more than whining and complaining and spouting things that aren't necessarily true.


Even if they were true, and much of what has been posted here is nothing more than uneducated, unsupported nonsense, whining and moaning isn't going to solve anything, especially talking to a flunky 1000 miles away from the problem.



webin said:


> Vehemently complaining on this board doesn't help solve problems. It only helps the poster blow off some steam.


Or deliberately annoys everyone else, which is the troll's objective. I've also seen some posts which smell heavily of agents provocateur, although of course I have no proof and am even uncertain of what organization might support them. That said, I am convinced the majority of posters reporting problems in this thread have a legitimate problem.



webin said:


> I'm reading a book called "Shut Up, Stop Whining, and Get a Life" by Larry Winget, which teaches that whining and foot stomping doesn't change anything. You actually have to do something if you want to make things better.


*AMEN!!* We seem to be growing into a nation of chronic whiners. The worst offenders in this thread have done nothing but make phone calls, (allegedly) write letters, and complain about how bad their situation is. It's amazing how few can tell us what the levels behind their TiVos are, as this is the primary diagnostic which allows anyone to embark on a course of action. Without that measurement, any and all actions of any sort are nothing more than farting in the wind. If the user is too lazy or inept to obtain a measurement of the signal levels, then they have rather little chance of fixing the issue. I haven't seen anyone post a spectrum analysis of the signals behind the TiVo, and that is the second important diagnostic without which little other than signal level and perhaps equalization can be addressed. Finally, I haven't seen a single measurement of OOB signals made by anyone at the back of the TiVo. This artifact strikes me to be likely as the most significant proximate cause of problems on FIOS systems, although high levels also seem likely as a proximate cause, and improper equalization is definitely not completely off the radar.



webin said:


> I might suggest buying some attenuators.


I suggest getting some measurements. No technician or engineer worth even half his salt would ever even begin to try to fix an issue without proper measurements. While I am not expecting the people of this forum to be technicians, a clue needs to be bought from those people who fix these sorts of issues for a living. Certainly, sticking in a pad to see if it helps is both inexpensive and easy, but it is a shot in the dark, and without a good diagnostic, there is no way to tell how close to the mark the shot may be hitting.



webin said:


> And now I'm going to remove myself from this thread (and the sticky thread) for a while. I really enjoyed the months of troubleshooting where we searched for causation and solution, but that's not what's happening anymore. It's just a bunch of whining.


If you haven't already, I rather wish you wouldn't. Attitudes like yours are a refreshing break from whining and silliness.


----------



## wm2008

lrhorer, 

You are apparently having difficulty with reading comprehension. Either that, or you are falling prey to the "design for design's sake" mentality that so many less than effective engineers have historically taken.

Here are some facts, just so you don't have to go back through posts which completely refute your position.

1) I currently have BOTH TivoHDs and a Moto 6416-2.

2) At the time that pixelation is happening, BOTH TivoHDs often experience the issue - on the same channel, at the same time. The Moto unit does not display the issue. It may be dropping frames, but it is not perceptable to the user.

3) When the units are swapped so as to even remove the physical port that they are plugged into, the symptoms follow the TivoHDs and never follow the Moto. Your comment that Tivo cannot design for both low signal strength as experienced by cable users AND "the very small percentage" of Fios users, is frankly totally incorrect. As evidenced, Motorola is already doing it. In fact. And frankly, from a design perspective it would be a superior solution to force amplification of a low signal environment rather than casually disregarding a high signal environment (in particular with the low signal percentages are dropping and the high signal - fios - is the most rapidly growing segment). Further, it solves yet another problem. As you correctly point out, many cable customers were forced to have amplification due to low signal strength. Guess what? The cableco does that at no cost because of the Tivo would in theory suffer, so would the cableco devices. So, the consumer is not left with the dilemma that everything that the cableco/vz provides works correctly and only the Tivo does not. So, that solution would provide a Tivo that works everywhere that content is provided - including both with Cable and with Fios. The current design does not.

4) These are consumer electronics devices, intended to provide a given result to the user. A failure mode of imperceptable frame drops is a superior mode than massive pixelation and audio drops. That's even assuming that frame dropping is occuring on the Moto. 

5) Tivo claims themselves that "they know about it". They simply blame Verizon. Moto doesn't have to. To insinuate that Tivo is not aware is frankly disengenous and unethical. There is even a mention on their site about this and the link to contact Verizon. I'd say that's pretty much proof. You may not agree.

6) The Tivo reports both S/N AND signal strength.

7) You completely fail to recognize that Tivo has the issue here. Not Verizon. Look at Tivo sales vs Verizon Fios sub growth. Which do you think is growing faster? Now, look at Fios sub growth compared to cable sub growth (such as Comcast). There is an increasingly large difference whereby Fios is gobbling up huge areas of the market. VZ has no legal requirement or financial incentive to fix what you consider "their problem " (and which I don't think is their problem). Even though they are not legally required to do so at this time, they are already complying with part of the integration ban by supporting cablecard. If Tivo is going to simply blame VZ and not address this (as obviously Moto did with their design - factually proven) then they are for the most part isolating that entire market segment, which serves to even diminish their current market in the face of increasing competition and price pressure. Let me give you a little tip - when that happens to companies and they become more revenue challenged, the first thing that suffers is engineering design and quality. From a marketing perspective they're forced to try to keep up with adding features, but they then lack the resources to adequately fund such projects. As a result, customers typically start to see more and more issues. So while you think Tivo's position on this will not affect anyone other than those "few" (in your opinion) people affected by this, in fact that is far from the truth. Frankly, I'm already of the opinion that that's why we're experiencing some of these issues to begin with. They've already started that spiral.

This frankly seems to be more of the issue where some Tivo users are terribly excited to have the most elegantly designed mousetrap that often doesn't trap the mouse. It is honestly a perspective that overly technically focused individuals lacking overall design and quality objectivity can fall prey to. This is the reason that qualified engineers without project focus are often not allowed to have any decision making within the project. They are given very specific requirements and technical specifications along with literal use cases - but not freedom of design. "Heads down tactical" engineers focus on a single tree, but completely miss the fact that the forest is burning down around that tree. 

And again, I'd ask for that IEEE or whatever you want "industry standard" that mandated SNR at 31. Please show me that spec outside of Tivo. 

For those that think this is just whining, grow up and treat Tivo and these devices for what they are. They are commodity consumer electronics. Simply being "fanboys" of Tivo without creating pressure here and in other public forums serves no purpose. It will certainly not generate any emphasis to Tivo to actually correct these issues. So long as people here would prefer to attack those experiencing severe issues which frankly make their product worthless and blindly support a product, Tivo will be more than happy to roll more less than quality product out and not make needed improvements. Tivo still has promise and can still fix some issues. But by endorsing their abandonment of existing customers you undermine your own future.


----------



## wm2008

lrhorer said:


> Even if they were true, and much of what has been posted here is nothing more than uneducated, unsupported nonsense, whining and moaning isn't going to solve anything, especially talking to a flunky 1000 miles away from the problem.
> 
> Or deliberately annoys everyone else, which is the troll's objective. I've also seen some posts which smell heavily of agents provocateur, although of course I have no proof and am even uncertain of what organization might support them. That said, I am convinced the majority of posters reporting problems in this thread have a legitimate problem.
> 
> *AMEN!!* We seem to be growing into a nation of chronic whiners. The worst offenders in this thread have done nothing but make phone calls, (allegedly) write letters, and complain about how bad their situation is. It's amazing how few can tell us what the levels behind their TiVos are, as this is the primary diagnostic which allows anyone to embark on a course of action. Without that measurement, any and all actions of any sort are nothing more than farting in the wind. If the user is too lazy or inept to obtain a measurement of the signal levels, then they have rather little chance of fixing the issue. I haven't seen anyone post a spectrum analysis of the signals behind the TiVo, and that is the second important diagnostic without which little other than signal level and perhaps equalization can be addressed. Finally, I haven't seen a single measurement of OOB signals made by anyone at the back of the TiVo. This artifact strikes me to be likely as the most significant proximate cause of problems on FIOS systems, although high levels also seem likely as a proximate cause, and improper equalization is definitely not completely off the radar.
> 
> I suggest getting some measurements. No technician or engineer worth even half his salt would ever even begin to try to fix an issue without proper measurements. While I am not expecting the people of this forum to be technicians, a clue needs to be bought from those people who fix these sorts of issues for a living. Certainly, sticking in a pad to see if it helps is both inexpensive and easy, but it is a shot in the dark, and without a good diagnostic, there is no way to tell how close to the mark the shot may be hitting.
> 
> If you haven't already, I rather wish you wouldn't. Attitudes like yours are a refreshing break from whining and silliness.


If you are accusing me of being a troll, how about this? Let's talk off-line. I'll PM you a con call 800 number. I can walk you through everything on this end, including my device sn's, etc. Whatever you need to feel comfortable that this isn't a troll. It's just a customer who paid up front for products and then paid monthly, and who has been given a run-around and no working solutions from Tivo for over a year. Let me know. I'm available right now.

And now you expect Tivo customers on Fios to have their own spectrum analyzers? Are you SERIOUS?


----------



## lrhorer

subgenius37 said:


> So this is a follow up to some of my posts earlier, talking about a diplexer fixing my particular Verizon FiOS cable card + TIVO HD problem. It is still working except between 8-9:30 on Tuesday night. For whatever reason on that night I get a bunch of RS errors all around the 5.1 MHz frequency


I think you need to look again. CATV Broadcast signals* range from 55.35 MHz up to 800+ MHz in 6 MHz increments (with a 4 MHz gap between channel 4 at 67.35 and channel 5 at 77.35, plus a 20 MHz gap from 88 - 108 MHz between channels 6 and 98 for FM radio stations). The frequencies between 5 and 45 MHz are used for upstream transmissions for 2-way communications in order to deliver internet access, SDV, IPPV, etc.

*Most CATV systems offset their broadcast frequencies by 10KHz from the FCC standard OTA frequencies. The standard OTA freqencies are 55.25MHz, 61.25MHZ, etc. Some CATV systems make use of the FM band from 88 - 108 for video or other transmissions.


----------



## bicker

lrhorer said:


> We seem to be growing into a nation of chronic whiners.


Abso-friggen-lutely. Given our disagreement on other issues, I thought it important to highlight things we agree about.



wm2008 said:


> 2) At the time that pixelation is happening, BOTH TivoHDs often experience the issue - on the same channel, at the same time. The Moto unit does not display the issue. It may be dropping frames, but it is not perceptable to the user.


This is the most critical point in this thread. I haven't seen some people that this comment was directed to respond to it yet.



wm2008 said:


> Simply being "fanboys" of Tivo without creating pressure here and in other public forums serves no purpose. It will certainly not generate any emphasis to Tivo to actually correct these issues.


That's not what online forums are for. Rather, online forums are for fostering the best experience for users, not for setting unfounded expectations. The way to create pressure for TiVo is to stop giving them money. Period. That's what businesses acknowledge. Money. Nothing else matters. As you can see, "whining" doesn't have the effect you desire. It works against what a lot of other people want, and so you won't -- WON'T -- get the unrebutted soap-box that you need for your tactic to work. So get over that, and use the appropriate measures for applying pressure: Stop giving TiVo money if you don't like what they're giving you.


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## sinanju

wm2008 said:


> And again, I'd ask for that IEEE or whatever you want "industry standard" that mandated SNR at 31. Please show me that spec outside of Tivo.


In support of your point, *wm2008*, here's some discussion on the subject taken from the Verizon tech notice that documents the attenuation workaround. To quote:



> Testing has shown that attenuating the signal to the TiVo to an approximate power level of -17.5dBmv digital (ch 55), then the tiling issue is alleviated.*
> 
> CableLabs specifications are for a QAM256 tuner to accept a RF signal from -15dBmv to +15dBmv for digital. Verizon uses a more stringent standard than CableLabs of -6dBmv to +5dBmv for digital. Knowingly providing the TiVo a RF power level in the -17dBmv range is out of specification, but it resolves the tiling issue for the customer.
> 
> However, the fact that the fact that the signal level is so low may cause secondary issues, such as an intermittent loss of channels. This is to be expected when a TiVo is set up with such a marginal signal level.


*Wacky grammar as written.


----------



## wm2008

Also, an update FWIW. While my SN has not changed (as reported by the Tivo) the pixelation issues have dramatically increased. Previously pixelation typically happened on some non-broadcast network (ie, not on ABC, CBS or NBC for example) HD streams. In particular over the past couple weeks, pixelation now happens on just about any channel. This past week CBS was pretty much not viewable. I can't say what else may be going on, but I've made no changes inside my home, no ONT changes, no attenuators, splitters, etc, and no changes to the Tivo. It doesn't "appear" as though the signal was made hotter by VZ. But I can't say for sure.


----------



## wm2008

bicker said:


> That's not what online forums are for. Rather, online forums are for fostering the best experience for users, not for setting unfounded expectations. The way to create pressure for TiVo is to stop giving them money. Period. That's what businesses acknowledge. Money. Nothing else matters. As you can see, "whining" doesn't have the effect you desire. It works against what a lot of other people want, and so you won't -- WON'T -- get the unrebutted soap-box that you need for your tactic to work. So get over that, and use the appropriate measures for applying pressure: Stop giving TiVo money if you don't like what they're giving you.


Well, I disagree, Bicker. I understand your point. And it is very possible that I will stop giving Tivo money - no doubt about that.

But my point is that reputation matters also. And the more people that can see - and read - that Tivo is not the second coming of Christ and that there may be issues, the greater chance that public perception may generate some desire for movement by Tivo. Further, the more people that continue to bring up these issues and not allow them to drop, the more "evidence" newer people have to try and force Tivo to accept responsibility and do nothing about it. It's about turning on bright lights to make serious issues visible rather than allowing a company to sweep their problems - and customers - under the rug. It's about those people (like me) who didn't purchase their units direction from Tivo, who spent the money up front and experienced issues, who listened to Tivo tell them that the issues would be resolved for more than a year, and who now have no recourse to get their money back that was effectively stolen. Those customers can stop paying monthly fees, but that does nothing for the devices themselves, and since Tivo disables all useful function of the devices within 30 days of killing your Tivo sub, that's a big issue.

I don't expect everyone to climb on the soap box. I also just don't appreciate when people are so myopic in their love for Tivo that they abandon and ignore real issues. Tivo counts on that.


----------



## bicker

wm2008 said:


> I don't expect everyone to climb on the soap box.


Then be fair and don't expect to have an unrebutted soap box. Don't disparage people for criticizing your criticisms.


----------



## wm2008

bicker said:


> Then be fair and don't expect to have an unrebutted soap box. Don't disparage people for criticizing your criticisms.


Criticism is fine. Open minded and willing to listen is part of it. I do not expect to not be rebutted. I do expect that people who claim to know what they're talking about not make crap up or ignore what they don't like hearing. That's the problem. Like lrhorer insinuating (pretty much stating) that I'm a troll here and not genuine. After he made that claim I offered a quick solution to "rebut" his allegation. Still waiting.

But anyway, I do realize it's an uphill battle. But not fighting it is what I've done for a year. I just lurked, listened to Tivo, called them, tried diagnosing on my end, lived with the issues - but said nothing. More than a year of that is long enough. As I've said before, were the TivoHD reliable I'd love it completely. Money certainly wasn't the issue as I bought 2. But I should have known better when I wasn't comfortable enough to lock myself into a service agreement to save on monthly fees. I guess I should have listened to my gut feeling then. Now I've got quite a bit of money invested and it doesn't look like there is a likely long term solution. I posted in another thread that the problems are increasing. Because pixelation on another show that we recorded was so terrible last night it was not viewable. So, we decided to try the netflix on demand again. We've had mixed results so far. Started playing a movie. TivoHD locked up. Had to unplug it - no response from remote. Rebooted. Tried again with another title. It started to load, then locked up. Same thing. Neither title was HD. Just 2 cents.


----------



## lrhorer

wm2008 said:


> You are apparently having difficulty with reading comprehension.


My reading comprehension is fine.



webin said:


> Either that, or you are falling prey to the "design for design's sake" mentality that so many less than effective engineers have historically taken.


No, I am just an effective engineer who understands the the physical limitations of RF systems, the reality of the signal level profiles experienced by better than 80% of the CATV and OTA attached TiVos, and the global ramifications of implementing a less sensitive receiver than is deployed in the TiVo. It might well help *YOU*, but *YOU* are not 80% of CATV users out there.



wm2008 said:


> 1) I currently have BOTH TivoHDs and a Moto 6416-2.


I read and understood that. What you don't seem to understand is, it isn't particularly relevant. The fact refutes nothing, but does serve to underline your lack of understanding of the situation.



wm2008 said:


> 2) At the time that pixelation is happening, BOTH TivoHDs often experience the issue - on the same channel, at the same time. The Moto unit does not display the issue. It may be dropping frames, but it is not perceptable to the user.


I also read and understood this from your posts. Having dealt with precisely this situation innumerable times in my career as a CATV engineer, I am painfully ware of how irrelevant this also is.



wm2008 said:


> 3) When the units are swapped so as to even remove the physical port that they are plugged into, the symptoms follow the TivoHDs and never follow the Moto.


'Again with the irrelevant. Now if it did follow the Moto, you would have something, but in the event a very different something. As it is, I don't see anyone claiming the Motorola is not less susceptible to the issue. What you seem unable to grasp is the Motorola is less susceptible *BECAUSE IT IS LESS EXPENSIVE AND INFERIOR*. I cannot count the number of highly sensitive, extremely expensive devices (including TVs) I have seen which are driven insane by high signal levels when much cheaper, much lower quality devices work just fine, the two sitting right together, side by side. When I was an undergraduate in Physics at A&M, I worked in the lab. We had one RF receiver which cost over $20,000 (more like $80,000 in today's dollars). At the time, with the exception of a SQUID probe, it was one of the most sensitive devices on the planet. It would have a total meltdown if taken out of a totally shielded room. It could literally be driven nuts by a persons's breath or bringing one's hand close to its sensor. When I was a CATV engineer, our technicians were given very inexpensive little 19" color TVs right off the retail dealer's shelf (I think they were Panasonics, or maybe Samsungs) to carry to customer's houses. They even had mechanical rather than digital tuners, and had to be used with a converter to receive more than 12 channels. Virtually every day one of our techs came across a customer whose $2000 TV was having fits, but the little 19" models had a perfect, if small, picture. If I recall, I think they cost us about $58, in lots of 100. The tech would (or was supposed to) check the levels at the tap, and if they were good, pad down the TV. Significant to this thread, the reverse was not true. Frequently, a customer would complain of snowy pictures, and upon arrival the picture would indeed be a bit snowy. Plug in the cheap little TV, and sometimes there would hardly even be a picture. Everything comes at a price, and the completely inevitable price of greater sensitivity - the ability to capture lower level signals - is a higher susceptibility to distortion and common mode interference.



wm2008 said:


> Your comment that Tivo cannot design for both low signal strength as experienced by cable users AND "the very small percentage" of Fios users, is frankly totally incorrect.


It's not just Tivo, and please provide the credentials or engineering specifications which support your assertion that I am incorrect.



wm2008 said:


> As evidenced, Motorola is already doing it. In fact.


No, they aren't. As with every CATV equipment manufacturer of which I am aware, they assume their customer - the CATV provider - will be bound to deliver whatever amplification is necessary to bring the signal levels up to acceptable levels for their device. TiVo does not have that luxury. Their customer is not a CATV company, and indeed the TiVo may not even be attached to a CATV company.



wm2008 said:


> And frankly, from a design perspective it would be a superior solution to force amplification of a low signal environment rather than casually disregarding a high signal environment (in particular with the low signal percentages are dropping and the high signal - fios - is the most rapidly growing segment).


You are seriously suggesting TiVo should be responsible for supplying amplifiers for their customer? Are you nuts? There is no reason TiVo should be supplying filters, attenuators, or equalizers with their product, but you can't be seriously saying they should deliberately design their system so it frequently requires a $30 amplifier rather than a $2 attenuator?



wm2008 said:


> Further, it solves yet another problem. As you correctly point out, many cable customers were forced to have amplification due to low signal strength. Guess what? The cableco does that at no cost


Some do. Many do not. Indeed, TWC here used to charge for them. I don't know if they still do, or not, but I suspect they may. It is true in a properly designed and balanced CATV system, a customer with 1 or 2 TVs less than 40 meters from the subscriber tap should never need an amplifier, but in the event of a customer having more than that number of receivers and being further from the subscriber tap the TiVo is able to handle it. Just as a matter of record, the Scientific Atlanta 8300HD I was forced to use for an interminable time was not. Without my house amp in place (I have 12 outlets), the 8300 could not retrieve signals on many channels. Both my S1 and S3 can. Not having done the testing, I cannot say for certain, but I suspect it might handle high levels batter than the TiVo, as well. The 8300HD is the sorriest, most pathetic piece of crap ever attached to a CATV drop.



wm2008 said:


> because of the Tivo would in theory suffer, so would the cableco devices. So, the consumer is not left with the dilemma that everything that the cableco/vz provides works correctly and only the Tivo does not. So, that solution would provide a Tivo that works everywhere that content is provided - including both with Cable and with Fios. The current design does not.


I am sorely tempted to reply sarcastically, but I will refrain, and merely point out the idealogical myopia displayed in your posts in general is definitely highly evidenced in these sentences. If you will look on the back of the TiVo, you will see two inputs. One says, "*antenna*". I don't mean to be offensive, but the simple fact is you are being very self-centered with your thinking. The number of TiVo users employing their antenna inputs is probably greater than the number of FIOS subscribers (many people use both inputs, after all). Not only that, but design specs and good intentions aside, the number of CATV outlets out there with lower than spec outputs is appallingly high. The number of above spec outputs, even adding FIOS into the mix, is comparatively low. I know, because I have made the measurements, many hundreds of times. The prudent 3rd party engineer will design toward the presence of low signal levels, both OTA and CATV, rather than high levels, as it is by far the more common problem, and vastly the more difficult and expensive one to correct for the customer. The fact it leaves you in the cold is admittedly bad luck, but frankly it is the chance you took when you decided to go with a provider who chooses to deliberately deliver out of spec signals to their subscribers.

To fend off what I perceive as a likely retort, I am not suggesting FIOS re-engineer their systems, either. If I were designing an ONT, I would more than likely design it precisely as they did, with the exception of insuring there are no spurious OOB carriers present at the customer port. Since there is no systemic or economic impact (as there is with CATV plant) to producing high subscriber levels, and since it allows for many more receivers and longer wall drops without amplification, higher levels at the ONT are definitely the way to go. Verizon can easily buy 10 - 20 times as many attenuators and equalizers as amplifiers for the same cost, and they are likely to be needed on far fewer systems. It's a great financial move. (I do believe I would have built in a variable attenuator into the design, however, and rely upon the installers to set proper levels. Apparently Verizon does not trust their installers to handle this properly. Unfortunately there is probably some wisdom in this attitude.)



wm2008 said:


> 4) These are consumer electronics devices, intended to provide a given result to the user.


No, they are intended to provide a given result *when supplied with signals meeting industry standard specifications*. They won't work with U-Verse, and they won't work with European standards. Although they do work at least somewhat with higher than acceptable signal levels, there is no reason to expect they must. That is why standards exist. FIOS is not meeting them. Conditioning the signal so it does meet those standards is quite easy and inexpensive. Yet you whine on, and on, and on...



wm2008 said:


> 5) Tivo claims themselves that "they know about it".


I don't know whether they do, or not. It is certainly possible they ("they" being TiVo engineers, not some number of front line CSRs) are aware of and have investigated the situation.



wm2008 said:


> They simply blame Verizon.


Again, perhaps "they" ("they" being an official statement from authorized public company representatives of TiVo, Inc.) have, and perhaps not. It is perfectly clear from the few measurements which have been posted here the FIOS signals are far, far outside industry specifications, however. I'm not sure "blame" is the right word, but it certainly is not TiVo's fault FIOS is delivering signals that do not meet industry standard specs.



wm2008 said:


> Moto doesn't have to.


That is just silly. Motorola doesn't sell its DVRs to consumers, so if their boxes ever do suffer any systemic problems, they would be discussed exclusively between Motorola and their corporate customers. No consumer would ever be involved or informed of any of it.



wm2008 said:


> To insinuate that Tivo is not aware is frankly disengenous and unethical.


I never said they were not. I never commented on it one way or the other. It's irrelevant to the issue at hand.



wm2008 said:


> 7) You completely fail to recognize that Tivo has the issue here. Not Verizon. Look at Tivo sales vs Verizon Fios sub growth. Which do you think is growing faster?


Are you mad, or are you just being deliberately obtuse? This is an engineering issue. It has absolutely nothing to do with whose business is enjoying more revenue growth.



wm2008 said:


> If Tivo is going to simply blame VZ and not address this (as obviously Moto did with their design - factually proven)


No one, certainly not you, has presented a single fact to this end. On a Motorola DVR, for a typical, flat FIOS signal, what is the nominal overload level in dBmV? For the same profile, what is the minimum sensitivity in dBmV? For an optimum signal level with the same profile, what is the minimum S/N which will result in a signal capture with better than 1E6 bits / error? What are those same numbers if the frequencies above 850 MHz are filtered out? What is the maximum triple beat product the receiver can handle with the aforementioned error rate? What are the values of the same metrics for the TiVo? Answer those questions and you will have made a case for Motorola having "successfully addressed the problem". Until then you've done nothing but make a lot of aggravating noise. Meanwhile you are complaining about how lazy Tivo is without lifting a finger to resolve your issue.

<tons of highly irrelevant, totally unsupported horse pooky deleted>



wm2008 said:


> And again, I'd ask for that IEEE or whatever you want "industry standard" that mandated SNR at 31. Please show me that spec outside of Tivo.


Try reading my posts. Unless I am much mistaken, I was the first to point out this is a bogus metric through which to attempt to resolve the issue. Oh, and just BTW, industry standard CATV specs are based mostly on FCC regulations, and are published by the SCTE, not IEEE.



wm2008 said:


> For those that think this is just whining, grow up and treat Tivo and these devices for what they are. They are commodity consumer electronics.


Which perform well within acceptable parameters when used with signals that conform to industry standards. That you choose to employ them with signals that far exceed industry standards is your problem. That some other device is capable of working more reliably under those conditions and performs less reliably under more common conditions is irrelevant. I have some $1 plastic mugs which can take far more punishment than one of my $30 pieces of Waterford crystal, too. I don't think my guests would be terribly impressed if served in the plastic mugs at a formal dinner party.


----------



## Timber

'nuff said.

-=Tim=-


----------



## lrhorer

wm2008 said:


> If you are accusing me of being a troll, how about this?


I never said that, and in fact I was not thinking of you when I made the general statement. I hate to be specific on this sort of thing, but for example one of the posters claimed to be a Verizon employee, and I found his posts less than credible. He is a good candidate for being a likely troll. There have been several others whose posts seemed more intent on raising a disturbance than offering any good content. I'll not comment on your possible motivations (I feel that to be inappropriate) except to say it does not seem very much to me you are a troll or have the intent to merely stir up trouble. In short, the comment was not aimed at you. I'm sorry you thought it was.



wm2008 said:


> Let's talk off-line. I'll PM you a con call 800 number. I can walk you through everything on this end, including my device sn's, etc.


'Not unless you have a reliable signal level meter to hand. If not, the call would be pointless. Assuming you don't own one yourself, if you get a Verizon tech or other qualified technician or engineer out to your house and I happen to be online, then drop me a PM and I'll speak with him to help you resolve the issue. Otherwise, you can have them take the measurements and get back to me. A better notion, however is to simply have them verify (and modify, if necessary) the signal levels to make certain no digital carrier is below -15dBmV and no analog carrier (excluding FM audio carriers) is below -3 dBmV, no digital carrier is above 0 dBmV and no analog carrier is above +12, no digital carrier is more than 9 dB higher than any other digital carrier, and no analog carrier is more than 9 dB higher than any other analog carrier. Have them look for carriers above 850 MHz and insure that any such carriers are at least 20 dB lower than the lowest digital carrier. Make them show you the readings on the SLM and make them show you the entire spectrum up to 1500 MHz on the analyzer.



wm2008 said:


> Whatever you need to feel comfortable that this isn't a troll.


I don't particularly think you are, but on the other hand I don't really care if you are. Enough participants are reporting issues that I am pretty well convinced they exist, and the conversation is an important one, even in the event you should be just trying to get a rise out of people. Again, I'm not suggesting you are.



wm2008 said:


> and who has been given a run-around and no working solutions from Tivo for over a year.


Which is one of my major points. Quit looking to TiVo to fix something they did not break, and could not fix even if they did. Even assuming your incorrect assertions concerning the design of the S3 / THD were correct, a re-design of the platform would not help you fix your problem, as only newer models would enjoy the design. Even if they went to the absurd length of issuing a recall, it would still take many weeks to resolve an issue not of TiVo's making in the first place. A trouble call to Verizon should take far, far less time. Barring satisfaction from them, a few minutes on the internet and a few dollars on your credit card can resolve the issue, but first you should have those measurements.



wm2008 said:


> And now you expect Tivo customers on Fios to have their own spectrum analyzers? Are you SERIOUS?


Of course not! A spectrum analyzer is as close as a phone call to Verizon. Even I don't have my own Spectrum Analyzer. It belongs to the company. Even at that, given company policy I would make sure my boss would know should I ever take it home for personal use.


----------



## lrhorer

sinanju said:


> In support of your point, *wm2008*, here's some discussion on the subject taken from the Verizon tech notice that documents the attenuation workaround.


I've seen this document before, and whether official or not, it's not very credible. While the Tivo (or any other reasonable consumer-grade TV receiver) should be able to handle any single carrier, even a digital carrier, of +15 dBmv, it requires quite an unusual receiver to handle 133 carriers all +15 dBmV in level, especially if they are digital. That is a broadband level of more than +57 dBmV, or over .70 volts. It's 1.7 million picowatts dumped into a device designed to detect signals as low as 400 picowatts. Think of it as trying to hear a child's whisper in the middle of 100 Rush concerts. The suggestion a consumer-grade device should be designed to handle 133 carriers at +15 dBmV is not reasonable. On the other hand, -15 dBmV is quite low for an analog AM video carrier, but not at all for an FM or digital carrier of any sort. Indeed, -10 to -20 dBmV is pretty typical for such carriers.

Perhaps more importantly, it doesn't properly address the very real issue of spectrum flatness (even though it brings it up), focussing instead only on channel 55, and it says nothing concerning the OOB carrier many FIOS customers are reporting and which I consider to be most likely the most significant culprit. Of course, hitting the receiver with .7 volts and a high level carrier just above 1 GHz is a lot like sitting it on an anvil and hitting it with a sledge hammer. Failure shouldn't really be unexpected.


----------



## wm2008

lrhorer,

Sorry - I've been tied up. I had to move my Moto box to my downstairs family room just as company got here to watch the AFC game, and both of my Tivos were pixelating so incredibly bad that they are worthless at this point. The moto unit performed perfectly. Neither Tivo performed whatsoever. I showed the differences (connected both to my display) for our friends to display the obvious Tivo design defect.

You see, we'll just have to disagree. There is no industry standard of 31db. What you consider irrelevant to this situation precisely describes your inability to understand the market, and the situation. Failure modes are the key issue here, and the failure mode demonstrated by the Tivo is unacceptable. Your refusal to acknowledge that there is some meaning to the fact that the Moto units when connected to the same port on the same segment to the same display on the same channel at the same time never every exhibit any issues, and the Tivos continue to fail simply indicates to me that you simply want to defend Tivo no matter the circumstance. I'm sorry, but being a CATV engineer carries no weight for me. Frankly, if anything it shows some amount of bias in that you have a personal view based on your experiences of what you think the technology "should" be, rather than what it is. The inability to produce any sort of regulation or standard which clearly shows Verizon producing a signal "out of compliance" is simply evidence that it does not exist. Remember - my larger issue is that the Tivo - whether or not the signal is hot - cannot meet the performance specs and characteristics of the so-called "inferior" moto unit. At this point in time, it is frankly in this circumstance a failure. 

Your opinion is that tivo bears no responsibility here. You have a right to that opinion. I just think you're so far off base that you can't see straight about this. You tell me that my assertion that attenuators are not an "easy and simple solution" is not true and to prove it. Do yourself a favor and read some other posts and threads. Perhaps, maybe just this thread where there are documented examples of attenuators not correcting the issue. It is a lie to say that they are a simple and effective solution. It is accurate to say that sometimes it is a cheap solution that may or may not last. That it does not always fix the issue, and that it can cause problems in other areas. To deny this is unethical and dishonest - or simply uneduated.

Furthermore, please do me a favor and read a bit more carefully and with a bit more consideration. I never ever said that Tivo should ship amps with every unit. I simply said that it would be a more effective solution for tivo to ship less sensitive tuners which in SOME cases may require amplification, but would require attenuation in far less instances. It would enable the Tivo HD to (in theory disregarding other sw issues, netflix lockups, etc) to be more reliable for more people. Further, I'd love to see the metrics you have to defend your position that Fios THD customers are such a small percentage. Further, I'd love your business background and perspective to illustrate why such a market group should be disregarded.

I will not comment on what I may be your competence technically as a CATV engineer. I will only say that I believe your troubleshooting techniques and analysis to be very poor in this case. As an engineer, I find fault with both your position and your examples. I simply do not agree whatsoever with your position or statements. Were any of my engineers to respond to customers in this fashion I would terminate them. I realize I am not your customer, but frankly my perception is that you may as well be employed by Tivo. You simply can't find any fault with them or their product.

Still waiting for that "Industry Standard" you keep talking about.

Summary? I do think Tivo bears responsibility. This is a marketing nightmare. These devices are not functioning properly, and Tivo blames Verizon. Verizon blames Tivo. Problem? It's Verizon's network and they don't need Tivo. The tuner is improperly designed and implemented. It is too sensitive - assuming that signal is the issue (and if it's not, then attenuation does nothing whatsoever). I think Tivos casual disregard for the situation is reprehensible. It is unacceptable. It frankly rises to the level of class action to be honest.


----------



## richsadams

wm2008 said:


> It frankly rises to the level of class action to be honest.


----------



## webin

/Sigh. I simply can not remain silent. You're just too stubborn. Also, I've been asked specifically by several of this forum's most respected members to not withdraw from the community because of a few people like you.



wm2008 said:


> and both of my Tivos were pixelating so incredibly bad that they are worthless at this point. The moto unit performed perfectly. Neither Tivo performed whatsoever.


It's blatantly clear that your tivo's aren't working. Either fix them or get rid of them. I'm fairly confident you could convince tivo that your boxes are catastrophically borked and have them send you new ones. They're nice like that. Or, you could buy the attenuators we've suggested, maybe a low-pass filter, and get a fairly decent picture. As I said last time, complaining to us doesn't really make your tivos work.



wm2008 said:


> There is no industry standard of 31db.


You mean 31 signal to noise ratio (or SNR, or S/N). But since we're gentleman, we'll overlook misused terminology. Anyone without specific knowledge of CATV systems could make that mistake. Also, to the best of my knowledge, and I could be wrong, no one has claimed 31 SNR to be an industry standard. It was determined to be a good number through trial and error field tests. From the very first post of this thread:


AbMagFab said:


> *For FIOS TV and Tivo HD/S3, the "magic SNR number" appears to be 31.*





wm2008 said:


> Failure modes are the key issue here, and the failure mode demonstrated by the Tivo is unacceptable. Your refusal to acknowledge that there is some meaning to the fact that the Moto units when connected to the same port on the same segment to the same display on the same channel at the same time never every exhibit any issues, and the Tivos continue to fail simply indicates to me that you simply want to defend Tivo no matter the circumstance.


lrhorer went through a very detailed explanation of why the Motorolla box doesn't show the same errors a tivo box does. I actually learned a great deal from his discussion of tuner sensitivity. What's more, based on this new knowledge, I have a much more thorough understanding of what's occurring on the two boxes, and what an end-user can do to negate the problem. It's perfectly clear for me, why isn't it for you? Of course, it's become remarkably clear that you don't care about the engineering limitations, so I guess the facts don't really matter. You're too stubborn to see the problem as anything more as "tivos don't work so tivo sucks".



wm2008 said:


> I'm sorry, but being a CATV engineer carries no weight for me. Frankly, if anything it shows some amount of bias in that you have a personal view based on your experiences of what you think the technology "should" be, rather than what it is.


I find his experience as a CATV engineer to be invaluable in understanding the technical limitations we are facing. Instead of imposing some personal bias on what he feels the technology "should be", lrhorer has given us the cold, hard, unrefutable facts about the system design, whether we like them or not. In fact, I would argue that it's YOU that are showing a bias of what the technology "should be". Simply, you feel the tuners should work for both very weak signals AND very strong signals. It's a desire that's not economically feasible (as lrhorer explained), and I feel Tivo has done a decent job designing the THD to work with both extremes.



wm2008 said:


> You tell me that my assertion that attenuators are not an "easy and simple solution" is not true and to prove it. Do yourself a favor and read some other posts and threads. Perhaps, maybe just this thread where there are documented examples of attenuators not correcting the issue. It is a lie to say that they are a simple and effective solution. It is accurate to say that sometimes it is a cheap solution that may or may not last. That it does not always fix the issue, and that it can cause problems in other areas.


What we ALL are saying is that attenuators usuaully are able to fix most of the pixellation problems people have. The problem of course, is that the hot signal is not the only problem. For instance, in some cases an out-of-band signal (the MoCa band delivering internet and program guide) is interfering with electronics in the tivo and causing additional pixellation. This may actually be part of your tivo's problems. In cases like these we recommend a low pass filter or diplexers to cut out signals over 850 Mhz.



wm2008 said:


> To deny this is unethical and dishonest - or simply uneduated.


Well now you're just being overly dramatic. When have we denied that attenuators may not fix all the pixellation. Did you even read the discussion on diplexers we had last month? What we CAN assert is that attenuators a cheap band-aid that has a pretty good chance of helping out. On my system, a 6Db attenuator was all I needed.



wm2008 said:


> Furthermore, please do me a favor and read a bit more carefully and with a bit more consideration. I never ever said that Tivo should ship amps with every unit.


I did go back and read what you said, and while you didn't specifically say "ship amps with every unit", that is the gist of how I interpretted your previous statement:


wm2008 said:


> <wm2008's previous statement>
> And frankly, from a design perspective it would be a superior solution to force amplification of a low signal environment rather than casually disregarding a high signal environment... <cut rambling> ... So, that solution would provide a Tivo that works everywhere that content is provided - including both with Cable and with Fios. The current design does not.
> <end previous statement>





wm2008 said:


> I simply said that it would be a more effective solution for tivo to ship less sensitive tuners which in SOME cases may require amplification, but would require attenuation in far less instances. It would enable the Tivo HD to be more reliable for more people. Further, I'd love to see the metrics you have to defend your position that Fios THD customers are such a small percentage.


What you are saying is Tivo should redesign an existing product to conform to a new system that barely existed when the TivoHD was engineered in Q1/Q2 2007. FiOS launched in October 2006 (TV came after Internet) and had less than half a million subscribers when THD launched in July 2007. As of Q2 2008, Comcast TV has 24.7 million subscribers, and FiOS had 1.2 million at that time. Through Q3 2008, FioS had 1.6 million TV customers (it could be as high as 2 million today).

Here are the web pages where I found that information:
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=122850
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070724-tivo-hd-series3-lite-gets-official.html
http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/05/verizon-sued-for-allegedly-inflating-fios-subscriber-numbers/
http://www.fierceiptv.com/story/verizon-adds-233-000-fios-tv-customers/2008-10-27
http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/05/comcast_beats_estimates_thanks.php

Combine those numbers with all the other CableCos and people using THDs with over the air transmission, and FiOS has no more than 2% market share (that's my estimation), and those using THD's with FiOS is probably less than 100,000 people (again, my own back-of-the-napkin estimates). Also, we can estimate that less than half of THD/FiOS users are experiencing pixellation, based on how many people in this forum report no issue vs how many report issue. My point here is that the TivoHD IS designed to work well for the vast majority of the people using it. Yes, that fact sucks for us on this forum, since we are on the short end of the stick.



wm2008 said:


> I will not comment on what I may be your competence technically as a CATV engineer. I will only say that I believe your troubleshooting techniques and analysis to be very poor in this case. As an engineer, I find fault with both your position and your examples. I simply do not agree whatsoever with your position or statements. Were any of my engineers to respond to customers in this fashion I would terminate them. I realize I am not your customer, but frankly my perception is that you may as well be employed by Tivo. You simply can't find any fault with them or their product.


Since you sound like a project manager of some sort, and see fit to question lrhorer's competence, I see it fair game to ask you about the team morale and turn-over rate of those people you are in charge of. If you respond to you engineers in the manner you do here, I'm sure they hate you. If the tone and attitude you use on this forum is at all indicative of your professional mannerisms, it sounds like you make a crummy boss. I'm not just referring to your aggressive responses to those opposing you or your inability to have a calm, level-headed discussion, but also your stubborn desire to stick to "what you know is right." You ignore any facts that contradict your point of view because they don't conform to your world view. It's a dangerous position to take, particularly if you make executive decisions concerning your projects (or whatever work you do professionally).



wm2008 said:


> It frankly rises to the level of class action to be honest.


I think you're a delusional.  In the long run, it doesn't really matter what you think, or what I think, or what anyone else here thinks. You are too stubborn to believe anything other than that you already believe, and no amount of back and forth will convince anyone of anything new.


----------



## richsadams

webin said:


> It's blatantly clear that your tivo's aren't working. Either fix them or get rid of them. I'm fairly confident you could convince tivo that your boxes are catastrophically borked and have them send you new ones. They're nice like that. Or, you could buy the attenuators we've suggested, maybe a low-pass filter, and get a fairly decent picture. As I said last time, complaining to us doesn't really make your tivos work.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> You are too stubborn to believe anything other than that you already believe, and no amount of back and forth will convince anyone of anything new.


I know the gentleman is frustrated...understandably so. But those two paragraphs pretty much sum up how I suspect most anyone left reading this thread feels.


----------



## wm2008

Webin, here are my responses to you...

1) There are people on this specific thread who stated that these problems are easily and simply solved with attenuation. There are people on this thread who have indicated that attenuators are the magic silver bullet, and that I'm being unreasonable because they're that easy and reliable of a solution. That clear, and that blunt. And it is a lie. Please read the threads and you'll see that I have been consistent in acknowledging that attenuation sometimes does and sometimes does not solve the issue, and when solved sometimes the issue recurs. Further, I have attempted (and continue to attempt) to correct this. I "borrowed" 2 attenuators (that's all I could find on short notice), and I did schedule a service call with Verizon. It is actually scheduled for today - that's the first available date for this particular attempt.

2) Tivo will NOT admit that there is catestrophic failure on the boxes. I have called Tivo corporate and they frankly are doing nothing. The only thing they offered to do was allow me to cancel my subscriptions. I can provide the dates, times of the calls, and the names of the individuals. This as stated includes calling Tivo Corporate, which frankly was nothing but the same help desk at a different number. Furthermore, you may recall that one of the 2 boxes in question is ALREADY a replacement for a "borked" box. Sending new boxes obviously does nothing. I'm frankly confused why you would even suggest such an obviously unhelpful suggestion.

3) I am not a project manager - at least no more than anyone else in this business who is required to understand project management. Your assumption is incorrect. And, BTW, I have extremely low turnover and always have. No issues here, so I please remember the first 3 letters of the word "assume".

4) I totally disagree with Lrhorer and his assessment of the tuners as well as the difficulty in engineering the tuners. It is a fact that the Moto units function (from a pixelation perspective and tuning) more reliably on both the Comcast and the Fios systems. They certainly may have their own disadvantages, but that's not one of them. That Moto box is used across multiple systems and does not have this deficiency. The Tivo unit does. The description of sensitivity is fine. However it changes nothing. 

5) I am most certainly saying that Tivo needs to address this issue with Tuner implementations on their design, otherwise they will continue to create the same issues as time passes. Furthermore, the issues are without question likely to only increase in frequency as Fios becomes more and more of a large scale standard. I'm not saying that they should recall every TivoHD. I am saying that they should "participate" in attempting to find a solution for known issue happening with paying customers. They are not.

6) I only used the "31db" phrase to indicate that there is NO STANDARD AT ALL BEING IN QUESTION. When you read these threads, and see people making comments about how "oh, just attenuate down to 31db and you'll be fine" or "The Tivo doens't report signal strength - only S/N ratio", "Verizon is out of spec in their signal", or "the Verizon signal is not within industry standards" maybe you'll understand the sarcasm that was intended - especially since there has yet to be a single example explicitly showing the "standard" and in what way Verizon is failing to maintain it. Add to this that in this and other threads, when confronted with specific language about the "standards" and their implementation, "some" people here then just say that they don't "trust" the information. 

My relationships with my groups is actually very good. Frankly, the problem is an inability to recognize and admit to design issues - and to hold Tivo at least partially responsible for a known defect. I frankly would not consider an individual behaving this way to be an Engineer. They would simply be more of a techie who is unable to understand product lifecycle management, and quality design processes. Honestly, we don't run into that very much. It's actually more of a symptom of days gone by. The consumerization of many of these markets has pretty much killed that out of date philosophy. The differentiator is that we understand that we have customers - and we're all focused on those customers to the extreme. So it is unacceptable for us to simply foist our customers off to other vendors when our products experience issues. Here, Tivo will do nothing whatsoever. Their total answer and support is to tell me to call Verizon, and frankly that if that means me paying for a service call, etc, then it's my problem. Furthermore, as stated MANY times, I fail to understand the rationale of Tivo not spending the few pennies to try sending attenuators to customers experiencing this issue. Without question, this would go a long way in "working with the customer". The frankly honest truth is that I do not see Tivo making any effort whatsoever in these cases. I see no action. Except, that is, the action of taking service fees.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

I'm one of the people who *have* read most or all of this thread, and I've learned a lot. I don't agree that it's "beating a dead horse".

Over the years TiVo has designed many boxes, some more reliable than others. They have also released good software and bad software. I can accept all that. What I can't accept is TiVo's invariably poor response to big problems and small problems, to hardware problems and software problems.

For the most part, TiVo's answer to hardware problems is to ignore them. E.g. I owned one of TiVo's original S1 boxes, it had a very substandard modem. Yet TiVo continued to ship that same modem design for years, instead of improving it.

This tuner problem with FiOS is, to me, much the same thing. TiVo certainly can't afford to spend $30 per unit to fix the problem, but maybe there's a more creative solution. Maybe there's a $3 solution that fixes the problem for 90% of the people. Heck, maybe there's a $0.30 solution that fixes the problem for 50% of the people. At any rate, I doubt that TiVo has even *tried* to attack this issue from a hardware perspective.

Same with software. When TiVo releases new software it's invariably two steps forward, one step back. Sometimes three steps back.

IMO TiVo does not have in place a good engineering culture.


----------



## NJRonbo

I thought perhaps I already posted this here already...

I sent letters to Tivo corporate, specifically the CEO and VP of Distribution.

Received a phone call a few evenings ago from a tech at the Executive desk.

He explained that Tivo has been aware of the Fios problem for a long time
now. They are unable to modify the tuners as in doing so they risk new
problems with compatibility issues with cable systems.

Now I don't particularly buy this excuse, but I am unqualified to argue it.

He thought the attenuators were the best idea as that is what he has found
works for most people. I told him I was using a -10db attenuator and that all
the pixelation was gone except for a few seconds here and there. He suggested
rather than adding another attenuator and risking losing signal, to go out and
buy a short coax patch cable and barrel connector to bring the signal down just
ever so slightly more.

Tivo also extended my 30 day hardware and cancelation options to 60 days so
that I could ensure that the system was working properly.

So far, after adding -10db attentuation and a coax cable with barrel connector,
I can say that there are no longer any pixelation issues....at least, for the moment.


----------



## wm2008

OK, just to be open about the situation concerning Fios and the known TivoHD pixelation issues, here's the latest.

I left work early to meet Verizon at my home. They showed up. Can't say they knew anything about Tivos, but at least the technician was easy to work with and open to discussion. Some findings....

1) Sunrise meter showed SNR to be at around 28.
2) TivoHD showed SNR to be at around 38
3) VZ Moto box diags showed SNR to be at around 28.

Question that we both had: Why do both TivoHDs show a significantly higher SNR reading than do either the sunrise meter or the Moto? 

4) Pixelation observed across multiple channels on both TivoHDs on both tuners on each TivoHD.
5) No pixelation observed on the Moto unit.
6) All readings and specs for signal strength, SNR, extremely well within "normal acceptable standards" according to Verizon tech.
7) Applied -14db of attenuation on each TivoHD. (experimented a bit to get this, as we needed to do this through the Tivos since they are reporting completely different SNR than the sunrise meter.
8) Now, SNR is at 31, sometimes 32.
9) While pixelation is vastly improved, it is not gone from EITHER of the tuners on EITHER of the TivoHDs.
10) Applied another -3db of attenuation to one of the TivoHDs
11) Started losing signal on some channels. 
12) Went back to -14db. 

That's where it's at now. It appears as though the TivoHD tuner requires a VERY narrow range in which it can reliably operate, at least from my experience and with Verizon there using a meter and testing with attenuaters. So, the problem is not completely resolved to begin with, and I'll continue to observe to see how it plays out. Further, the attenuators had to be applied at each Tivo rather than prior to distribution, because otherwise it would have reduced the signal too much for reliable operation of the Moto unit which continues to function perfectly. I still currently have the Moto unit AND one of the TivoHDs connected to my "main" TV until I get a better handle on this.

One other update: Verizon showed me yesterday that their new (and being installed in my area) HD DVRs do in fact do MRV in HD. So from a base functionality perspective, the only thing really really important to me that they still miss is expandable storage. Since the Netflix feature (which is cool) so frequently locks up and forces an unplug reboot of the Tivo I have to say that they are getting closer to really being technically competitive with Tivo. Their UI is still nowhere near as nice. Of course, I'm also seeing program guide errors on Tivo right now. I've got content that is recorded (repeatedly) as one thing when it's really another. The Moto program guide is correct and the Tivo (on channel 462 for example) continues to be wrong.


----------



## bkdtv

wm2008 said:


> Of course, I'm also seeing program guide errors on Tivo right now. I've got content that is recorded (repeatedly) as one thing when it's really another. The Moto program guide is correct and the Tivo (on channel 462 for example) continues to be wrong.


Why don't you indicate the channel names? For me, 462 is WJLA Weather (a local subchannel), which probably .1% of FiOS customers watch .1% of the time. Better to have 99% of the channels right on the TiVo than 99% of the channels periodically wrong on the FiOS DVR, imo.

The FiOS DVR has information wrong on a regular basis for popular channels like ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, TNT, ESPN, FX, Versus, etc. Most of the time, new episodes are flagged as repeats and repeats are flagged as new episodes. But it's not uncommon to see listed programs off by 1-hour to 24-hours; for example, many of the recent college football games were off by 24-hours in Verizon's guide. No need to take my word on this -- a quick look at the Verizon boards will show people periodically missing new episodes of popular shows like Heroes, House, 24, etc. Here's one thread of dozens with guide data complaints.

These errors also assume Verizon's Motorola DVR is functioning normally. With the latest software, the Verizon DVR will occasionally "lose" its tuners, so no programs get recorded until a reboot. And its not uncommon for the file system on the Verizon DVR to become corrupt, resulting in 50-75% lost recording capacity until a reset (all recordings deleted). With just 25-50% usable capacity, more recordings get deleted due to limited space.

The TiVo certainly has faults but guide information is not one of them. Verizon uses Tribune Media (same company used by DirecTV and Microsoft's Windows Media Center). It's not 100% perfect, but it's the best and most reliable information available in the country. Verizon's own Motorola boxes use guide data from FYI Television, which is the least reliable guide data provider.



wm2008 said:


> One other update: Verizon showed me yesterday that their new (and being installed in my area) HD DVRs do in fact do MRV in HD.


For an extra $4/mo ($19.99/mo plus tax), you can add "MRDVR" capability to the Verizon DVR that will allow you to stream SD and HD recordings to the QIP HD STBs ($9.99/mo) and SD recordings to the QIP SD STBs ($5.99/mo). Streaming to other DVRs is not supported. After tax pricing in my area:

First box
Verizon MRDVR ($21.59/mo) = *$259.08/yr*
TiVo monthly ($12.99/mo) + M-CARD ($4.31/mo) = $17.30/mo = *$207.60/yr*
TiVo prepaid yearly ($129/yr) + M-CARD ($4.31/mo) = *$180.72/yr*

Second box for MRV
Verizon HD STB ($10.79/mo) = *$129.48/yr*
TiVo monthly ($9.99/mo) + M-CARD ($4.31/mo) = $14.30/mo = *$171.60/yr*
TiVo prepaid yearly ($99/yr) + M-CARD ($4.31/mo) = *$150.72/yr*

That's what the overwhelming majority of Verizon FiOS customers pay. Of course, there are some customers that have promotional discounts. Customers on the TiVo retention plan pay $6.99/mo on every box, which works out to *$135.60/yr* after the FiOS M-CARD and taxes. Verizon has promotions for its own DVR too; any new FiOS customer that signs up online can get a free Motorola DVR for the first six months.

_What does all this have to do with pixelization? Ooops..._


----------



## ah30k

You forgot that you need to pay upfront purchase price for TiVo though. Comparing dollars and cents is very difficult since they operate on slightly different models.

When talking about MRV, you need to look at whole-home costs. In that case, Verizon will bill for a second HD client at the secondary sets at full price while TiVo will offer a MR discount for secondary sets.

If you have an S3, then you need two CableCARDs for each set.

In general, comparing costs is a very individual activity.

edit - wow, just realized how off topic I've gotten here. Sorry.


----------



## wm2008

Some edits and corrections....

Not sure that the "overwhelming majority" of Verizon customers don't get discounts. Everyone in this region seems to be getting Moto DVRs at some sort of discount or special. But, that could stop at any time to be honest. It just hasn't as of the past year. I paid (and still do) $9.99 for my VZ Moto DVR. I pay 2x$3.99 for cablecards alone for each TivoHD - not including the Tivo cost or service. Those incentives may not be available everywhere I'm sure. It is a case by case basis. 

The Moto DVR (only IMHO and experience) has neither lost it's tuners or signal - nor has it ever experienced corruption. At one time I had 3 of them, I'm down to 1 (plus the 2 TivoHDs) now. None of them ever had any of these issues. Not saying that they don't exist. 

I'm not surprised that the info I got about MRV last night may not be entirely accurate. I'm going to check on this also, but I'm guessing that the VZ guy either misunderstood the technology, or he misunderstood my question.

I also agree that the TivoHD scheduling is far superior to the Moto. But (to get back to pixelation) you need to be able to watch the content for that to mean anything. I'm still working on that. After attenuation, still experiencing pixelation.


----------



## sinanju

wm2008 said:


> OK, just to be open about the situation concerning Fios and the known TivoHD pixelation issues, here's the latest.
> 
> [...]
> 8) Now, SNR is at 31, sometimes 32.
> [...]


Assuming they left you with some attenuators of varying values, as I suggested you request, and you're still seeing significant pixellation, you might want to try removing a bit of attenuation. I'm sure the magic number for many is 31, but my experience is that a bit higher actually works better... For me, ~34 seems best.


----------



## webin

wm2008 said:


> Question that we both had: Why do both TivoHDs show a significantly higher SNR reading than do either the sunrise meter or the Moto?


Very good question indeed, and as best as I can remember, you're the first to report that variance. Is there anyone else reading with both boxes that can check on this?



wm2008 said:


> 6) All readings and specs for signal strength, SNR, extremely well within "normal acceptable standards" according to Verizon tech.


Within Verizon's standards, which I would expect, but still hotter than most CATV systems.



wm2008 said:


> 9) While pixelation is vastly improved, it is not gone from EITHER of the tuners on EITHER of the TivoHDs.


How would you rate the pixellation now? Is it watchable, but not perfect now? Or is it still above your pain threshold? How often does the pixellation occur?

Also, I wanted to thank you for the tone of your posts today. I like you better this way


----------



## SeanC

webin said:


> Very good question indeed, and as best as I can remember, you're the first to report that variance. Is there anyone else reading with both boxes that can check on this?


When I get home I'll check it out.


----------



## SeanC

Verizon STB on Channel 505 ABCHD 26dB
Series 3 tuned to same with no attentuation 35-36dB signal strength 95-100
With 20dB attentuation 31-32dB signal strength 68-72

If I don't use the 20dB attentuator I'l get random severe pixelation. At least lasting several minutes in duration sometimes whole programs.

With the attentuator I occasionally see very brief pixelation on DiscoveryHD and ScifiHD. Very brief meaning I can tell that I saw the pixelation but it was probably less than .2 seconds in duration.

I consider that to be 99.9&#37; pixelation free, and I'm happy with that.


----------



## lrhorer

wm2008 said:


> You see, we'll just have to disagree.


Please think about that statement for a moment. You are speaking with a professional engineer whose very professional existence and livelihood are entirely dependent upon his ability to design, build, and troubleshoot systems like the one about which we are speaking. He's not a young, green engineer, either. He is a 30 year veteran who has seen many, many engineers of inferior talent fall by the wayside. He is damned good at what he does, and both his position and his paycheck reflect that competency. (To the rest of the forum, I apologize that this sounds like self aggranizement, but he has called my professional qualifications into question, and I feel the need to publicly clairify what those qualifications are.)



wm2008 said:


> There is no industry standard of 31db.


You aren't even bothering to read my posts. *READ MY LIPS: a Signal/Noise ratio of 31 dB has nothing to do with this issue*. It's an unintentional red herring the person who started this thread and others have perpetuated.



wm2008 said:


> What you consider irrelevant to this situation precisely describes your inability to understand the market, and the situation.


This has nothing to do with the market, and I understand the situation completely. It has everything to do with this: *DO YOU WANT YOUR TIVOS TO FUNCTION PROPERLY, OR NOT?*



wm2008 said:


> Failure modes are the key issue here, and the failure mode demonstrated by the Tivo is unacceptable.


No, it isn't. How can I make this simple for you? It is impossible - hammer that into your head: *IMPOSSIBLE IMPOSSIBLE IMPOSSIBLE* to design at any cost a unit capable of an infinite range. It is Impossible: *IMPOSSIBLE IMPOSSIBLE IMPOSSIBLE* to design a receiver with a reasonable price tag which can handle the entire range of signals found in the marketplace under all conditions. Do you understand that? If not, go back and hammer it into your head, again. Now that you understand it, realize that Tivo, for a reasonable price, can either design their units to cover 80% of the customers out there, or they can design their unit to cover 98% of the customers out there. Which should they do?

If you answered, "80%", then you are a fool. If you answered, "98%", then guess, what? You are left in the cold, because you are one of the 2% excluded by the practical, ethical, economic, and market savvy approach. If you truly believe it is better to kiss off 20% of the marketplace as opposed to 2%, then you don't know anything about marketing, either.



wm2008 said:


> Your refusal to acknowledge that there is some meaning to the fact that the Moto units when connected to the same port


It's irrelevant because it is non-diagnostic. Either you want to get your problem fixed, or you don't. *NO MATTER WHAT ELSE, YOUR PROBLEM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR MOTOROLA DVR, SO FORGET ABOUT IT!!!!!* It won't help you, TiVo, FIOS, or the friggin' tooth fairy to fix your porblem. It certainly is not helping anyone else.

If you don't want your problem fixed, then you *ARE* a troll, your actual possession or frustration with any number of TiVo units notwithstanding. I am not saying you are a troll, but if you persist in blathering on about marketing and failure modes, then clearly you have no interest whatsoever in fixing your problem, and consequently that makes you a troll, QED.



wm2008 said:


> I'm sorry, but being a CATV engineer carries no weight for me.


Then go get a salesman or a hairdresser to fix your problem. Let us know when he has it fixed.



wm2008 said:


> Your opinion is that tivo bears no responsibility here.


No, it is not. They have a responsibility to provide a unit which at a minimum meets industry standard specifications and functions properly with other related systems which meet industry standard specifications. They also have a responsibility to try to meet their customer's needs and expectations within reasonable limits. Expecting that they must function with some system which fails to meet industry standard specs is just stupid. That some other device can function in that environment is irrelevant. If you purchase an automobile with a gasoline engine, the fact your neighbor's vehicle runs on diesel is irrelevant. Don't expect yours to. Some diesels are even capable of running on gasoline, but if you buy an automobile with a diesel engine and put gasoline in it, don't be surprised when the engine blows large holes in the cylinder walls and cracks the heads. The fact SOME engines can get away with it, does not mean a Mercedes 450 SL can or should.



wm2008 said:


> You tell me that my assertion that attenuators are not an "easy and simple solution" is not true and to prove it. Do yourself a favor and read some other posts and threads. Perhaps, maybe just this thread where there are documented examples of attenuators not correcting the issue.


I'll allow that this could easily be a misapprehension on your part of what I have said, but it is based upon not reading my posts carefully. Let me try to correct it. If we just for for the moment assume the TiVo has a "flaw" in that it cannot handle high enough levels, and that the problem you and others are experiencing stems solely from the presence of higher levels than the TiVo can handle, then with 100% certainty we know that an attenuator of the proper size will fix the problem. In the event, the solution costs less than $3.

You with me so far?

Now let me introduce you to the concept of reducta absurdum. In a formal proof, we can show that an assertion is false by showing if it is assumed it leads to a contradiction, a paradox. The paradox in this case is, some of the members of the conference have reported adding attenuation does not fix the problem. Assuming their reports are acurate - and I have no reason to believe they are not - it follows that high levels are not the issue, or at least not the entire issue. QED

That is what I have been saying in this thread from day 1. How you missed it is frankly beyond me.



wm2008 said:


> It is a lie to say that they are a simple and effective solution.


I never once said they were effective. Not once. It is a lie to say I did. They are a simple and inexpensive solution. That they are effective at all is not entirely clear, although the fact they have been reported to be at least somewhat effective is not surprising at all in view of the likely culprits. Any 3rd order distortion product in a receiver can be reduced significantly by reducing the overall input power. This does not mean the source of the unwanted products is high levels, it just means the problem can be masked by attenuating the signal. Conversely, any OOB carriers, particularly ones close to the receivers 1st stage IF frequency can produce high levels of 3rd order distortion. Reducing the input levels will greatly reduce the distortion products, but getting rid of the carrier will eliminate them altogether. To simplify: an attenuator may help, and in some cases may be called for, but a filter is the only thing that will remove the element that is most likely to be the primary proximate cause in many, most, or possibly even all these situations. (Note: assuming all these reports the same root causes is not appropriate in any case.)

Do you understand, yet? If so, then great. If not, then you just need to do one of 2 things:

1. Forget about what you think you know and take the word of an acknowledged expert.

2. Remain frustrated.



wm2008 said:


> Furthermore, please do me a favor and read a bit more carefully and with a bit more consideration.


Consideration is not the issue. I read very carefully. What's vastly more important, I understand the *IMPLICATIONS* of what you said, as I am afraid you clearly do not.



wm2008 said:


> I never ever said that Tivo should ship amps with every unit.


Yes, you did, or at least your statements unambiguously lead to the situation where your statements require they should ship amplifiers to people who have problems resulting from the re-design.

Try and follow again.

You are adamant that TiVo should fix your problem. Unless I am to assume you are just an arrgant, overweaning @ss, then I must infer you think this to be the case for any customer suffering from a result of TiVo's design parameters. Again, assuming high levels are the only current issue, and that the solution as you suggest is to design the TiVos with less sensitive receivers, then the very large number of customers with low levels who previously would have had good PQ will now be suffering with poor PQ, the solution of which is for TiVo to ship out amplifiers. QED

You said it. You just did not think deeply enough about what you were saying to see the inevitable consequences of your statements.



wm2008 said:


> I simply said that it would be a more effective solution for tivo to ship less sensitive tuners which in SOME cases may require amplification, but would require attenuation in far less instances.


First of all, the statement is untrue. High levels are rare. They are especially rare in the absence of other, quite serious artifacts produced by the high levels in the CATV plant. High levels (high enough to cause problems, anyway) from an antenna are also rare, especially since the antennas produce only a handful of carriers. FIOS is an exception. Because of their network design, they can and do deliver signals that are not just high, but outrageously high. That said, and being a fact, I do not believe that high levels, or high levels alone are responsible for all the issues FIOS customers are having. Nonetheless, the simple fact is, 30% or better of all RF feeds found in households are at the low end of the spectrum, well below optimum specifications. Less than 10% experience high levels, and a large fraction of those experience artifacts in the video regardless of whose receiver they use, the distortion products having been produced in the CATV plant. I tell you I know this because not only have I read the industry's engineering reports, I have measured them myself. Now you have to either believe me, or else you think I am a liar. If the latter, I have to insist you point to the peer reviewed documentation which supports that belief.



wm2008 said:


> It would enable the Tivo HD to (in theory disregarding other sw issues, netflix lockups, etc) to be more reliable for more people.


No, it wouldn't. That's the whole point. It would solve problems for 2% or less of all TiVo customers while creating problems for 10 - 20%. That is not a reasonable trade-off. What's more, the cost per customer to alleviate the 10% - 20% group would be more than 20 times higher than those required to alleviate the problems for the 2%. Add it all together, and the result is it could cost 100 times more to fix. Again, that's assuming levels are the problem, which I doubt.



wm2008 said:


> Further, I'd love to see the metrics you have to defend your position that Fios THD customers are such a small percentage.


My understanding is FIOS is in fewer than 5% of homes serviced by CATV or CATV-like services, while Time Warner, Comcast, and Cox service more than 80% of such customers. Correct me if I am wrong. Of the 5% who have FIOS, and once again assuming levels are the only issue, then less than half of FIOS customers would be likely to have the problem. Being very generous, that leaves 2.5%.



wm2008 said:


> Further, I'd love your business background and perspective to illustrate why such a market group should be disregarded.


Although my background as a successful businessman does provide me with just such credentials, one needn't be a genius to know that no vendor can possibly meet the needs of every potential customer. Even if it were possible, it is never practical. Instead, the wise businessman makes it a point to invest his resources in such a way to best meet the demands of the demographic for whom he is best suited to deliver the highest volume of margin, whether it be a small number of high margin customers or a large volume of low margin customers. Catering only to a small number of low margin customers is a great way to go bankrupt in a hurry, and that is precisely what you are suggesting TiVo should do.



wm2008 said:


> Still waiting for that "Industry Standard" you keep talking about.


I posted them. See to it Verizon's signals meet them, and you will find yourself without issues. Continue to blather on about things about which you haven't the faintest clue, and we will all see you are the very thing I did not think you were: a troll.


----------



## bicker

Your insistence on ignoring the reality of the Motorola boxes undercuts your whole argument. If Motorola can do something, it is not unreasonable for TiVo to have been able to do the same thing. And that's regardless of how long your message is, how much you bold your comments, and how much you make your comments in all-caps.


----------



## lrhorer

wm2008 said:


> It doesn't "appear" as though the signal was made hotter by VZ. But I can't say for sure.


It's possible, but not overly likely. The ONT should be very stable.


----------



## lrhorer

wm2008 said:


> 1) Sunrise meter showed SNR to be at around 28.


That is patently *HORRIBLE*. FCC specifications for an analog carrier are no less than 55 dB. Even if Verizon is putting their digital carriers 15 dB below analog levels - much lower than normal - that would still comeup with a 40 dB S/N. Given FIOS' system design, they should be easily hitting 60 or 70 dB. Nonetheless, QAM transport systems can usually live with S/N ratios of 20.



wm2008 said:


> Question that we both had: Why do both TivoHDs show a significantly higher SNR reading than do either the sunrise meter or the Moto?


A more sensitive tuner will always have a higher internal S/N than a less sensitive one for a given input signal, provided the input signal itself has a better S/N than the receivers. Otherwise, the noise of the input signal overwhelms the noise floor of the receiver. Having a lower S/N floor is by definition what makes a more sensitive receiver more sensitive. If your tech didn't know that, then he's got a lot to learn.



wm2008 said:


> 4) Pixelation observed across multiple channels on both TivoHDs on both tuners on each TivoHD.
> 5) No pixelation observed on the Moto unit.


Is this supposed to be something we didn't know? Please stop posting irrelevancies. What were the signal levels? What were the levels and frequencies of OOB carriers?



wm2008 said:


> 6) All readings and specs for signal strength, SNR, extremely well within "normal acceptable standards" according to Verizon tech.


That is meaningless. *What were those figures?*

<a bunch of blather deleted>
Please stop posting irrelevant nonsense.



wm2008 said:


> That's where it's at now. It appears as though the TivoHD tuner requires a VERY narrow range in which it can reliably operate, at least from my experience


Your experience is zero, and your alleged attempt to fix your issue seems all but deliberately designed to fail. Your deductions are so laughably ludicrous as to be beyond belief.

Out of curiosity and a desire to inject a little sanity into this situation, I did a little testing today. Since I am no longer a CATV engineer, I do not have access to all the tools I once did, and thus my testing is a bit limited, but the results are quite telling.

The only 1000 MHz amplifier I could find lying around was a little 10dB number, and while I used to have some pads lying around somewhere, I couldn't find any. The best I have at the moment is a 4-way splitter, but even that gives me better than 17 dB of range. Note that FCC specs call for a 10 dB window between 0 and +10 dBmV for optimal RF inputs to an analog TV set. Most do a bit better than this, allowing even an 800MHz broadband signal to be as high as +12 dB or so, and many still showing very decent pictures at -6 or in rare cases even -10 dBmV. Most average sets begin to show slightly noticeable noise and snow around -4 to -6 dBmV. Tomorrow or Thursday I will find some pads around here or go get some so I can take these guys all the way down until they start to fail. They did not do so today.

The signal levels behind the set here at the house are just a bit high, although nothing out of spec. The spectrum is quite nicely flat, with a fairly ordinary negative slope. TWC San Antonio runs their QAM carriers 6 dB below their analog carriers. Normalizing for all analog video, the spectrum would run from +10 dBmV on channel 2 to +3.5 dB on the highest carrier at 783 MHz. Normalizing for all digital carriers, that woudl be +4 dBmV at 55MHz and -2.5 dBmV at 783 MHz. The analog carriers stop at channel 77 (541 MHz).

Adding the 10dB amplifier, the levels become +20 on channel 2, +16 on channel 77, +10.5 at 591 MHz, and +7.5 at 783 MHz. This far exceeds FCC specs. The pictures are perfect. Most channels show 0 uncorrected errors and about 1 corrected error every 2 minutes or so. Removing the 10dB amp and replacing it with a 4-way splitter results in +3 dBmV on channel 2, -1 dBmV on channel 77, and -11 at 783 MHz. This is below FCC specs on all channels above channel 50. Pictures remain perfect, and I only found a couple of channels with any errors, corrected or not, over a 2 minute period of observation of each channel.



wm2008 said:


> So, the problem is not completely resolved to begin with


'No great surprise there.



wm2008 said:


> Further, the attenuators had to be applied at each Tivo rather than prior to distribution, because otherwise it would have reduced the signal too much for reliable operation of the Moto unit


What did I tell you? The Motorola is considerably less sensitive than the TiVos.



wm2008 said:


> which continues to function perfectly.


No, it doesn't, at least not if the other members of this forum are to be believed. According to them, FIOS signals may run as high as +20 dBmV. Since you failed to post your levels, either before or after, it's hard to tell for certain what effect 14 dB of attenuation had, but if the Motorola is failing with 14 dB of attenuation on a signal that was anything near +10 dB at the outset, then it is truly a piece of crap. If it's really true (I'm skeptical), then no wonder FIOS blasts out signals so high with their ONT. If what you say is even remotely true, then part of what is happening is FIOS is producing incredibly high signal levels to make up for the turdware they are delivering as a DVR. I actually don't think it is the case - for the millionth time I think it is almost certainly OOB carriers and maybe the spectrum tilt more than the signal levels that are out of whack, but it's the conclusion with which you have left us from the information you have given. It follows then that the TiVo is failing because of the outrageous levels FIOS is delivering to make up for their POS DVR. So by your logic, it is up to Motorola to redesign their unit and then FIOS to correct their network to follow suit.

The simple truth, however, is that you did little that was of any value and gave us no information of any value at all.


----------



## webin

lrhorer said:


> I think it is almost certainly OOB carriers


For those playing the home game, these out of band (OOB) carriers lrhorer is referring to are the MoCa signal Verizon uses to deliver Internet and program guide information. It operates in the 1150Mhz range, according to reports. You can prevent signals at this frequency from reaching the TiVo using a low pass filter, or a diplexer that passes through signals in the 5-900 Mhz range. Based on what I have on hand, it seems many splitters also limit to this range, though I'm sure there's a technical reason why they are ineffective (maybe that's their spec range of proper operation, but also allow other frequencies through?).

As a point of reference, which I've discussed previously, when we were first looking into MoCa interference as a culprit, I took the step to remove MoCa signals from my system. I wired my Internet connection to run on an existing Ethernet cable, disconnected the coax from my router, and called FiOS Solution Center and had them disable MoCa on my ONT. I can't verify that there are no MoCa signals being generated, but the appropriate light on the ONT is off. While the improvements aren't an on-and-off type result (I never had strong pixellation to begin with), I can say that since doing so, I experience VERY little pixellation. This would indicate (inconclusively) that the MoCa signal was causing some amount of pixellation on my Tivo.


----------



## lrhorer

Oh, I nearly forgot. For purposes of comparison and perhaps to aid a bit in understanding, here are some signal quality results. I picked 5 channels more or less at random, plus the OOB carrier at 75MHz, and recorded their S/N and level specs for each attenuation.



Code:


Ch	Freq	-7		0		+10
2	669	30/63		34/87		35/100
50	741	31/68		34/81		36/100
164	657	30/63		35/87		35/100
180	705	31/72		35/87		36/100
OOB	75	23		26		28


----------



## lrhorer

webin said:


> I can say that since doing so, I experience VERY little pixellation. This would indicate (inconclusively) that the MoCa signal was causing some amount of pixellation on my Tivo.


Thanks, webin. It is even entirely possible there is something else going on here none of us has considered, and since I am not physically on site in front of any of these problems, my ability to troubleshoot is very limited, and also distressingly prone to be ineffective, like trying to perform surgery with a blindfold on. That said, in order of what I believe to be the major contributor to these problems and the best solution there to to the most minor contributor, we have:

MoCa or other spurious carriers : Install 850 MHz Low Pass Filter
High levels : Attenuate the signal
Skewed levels : Equalize the signal

Whether in your case an attenuator is also indicated, I don't know. If all the signal levels are in the high 90s or 100, then it may not be a bad idea, although it is preferable someone with a Signal Level Meter check out the levels. If the signals at one end of the spectrum are all 100s and the signals at the other end of the spectrum are all 50s, then it may be a good idea to equalize the signals with either a tilt compensator or a long piece of cable, depending on the slope. Once equalization has been achieved, it may be necessary to remove some attenuation. In some cases, it may even be necessary to add an amplifier, but this situation should be rare, especially on FIOS systems.

Note no transmission system is perfect, and an occasional pixellation event should not be considered cause for consternation. By "occasional", I mean something on the order of once every two or three days, at most once a day. Also, if one channel is experiencing the problem more or less continuously, but only that one channel has the problem, then they are probably having some sort of issue at the source. This is one instance where having two devices can be diagnostic. Obviously, if both the Motorola and the TiVo are chugging out garbage on one channel and no other, the problem is unlikely to be with the DVRs. The same is true if the problem persists on a handful of channels. If something like 11 SD channels or 2 HD channels and 1 SD channel are spitting out garbage, the CATV company may have a QAM modulator going out.

Here, for example, I copied a movie to the video server three or four days ago that had a couple of very brief, small pixellation events in it, right during the opening credits. The rest of the movie was pristine, so I left it on the server, and I'm not going to worry about it. One program on TNTHD the other day had quite a few drop-outs and pixellation events in it, but it was the only channel that had the problem. It quit after an hour or so.


----------



## lrhorer

webin said:


> or a diplexer that passes through signals in the 5-900 Mhz range. Based on what I have on hand, it seems many splitters also limit to this range, though I'm sure there's a technical reason why they are ineffective (maybe that's their spec range of proper operation, but also allow other frequencies through?).


The bandwidth spec for a splitter or other flat-loss device is the range of frequencies throughout which the device is guaranteed to operate within the given tolerance. Firstly, this does not mean a 900 MHz splitter does not operate beyond 900 MHz, just that it is not guaranteed by the manufacturer to operate beyond that region. If it does, it does. If it doesn't, you can't return it (or box-loads of them) claiming they do not work. Secondly, a properly operating splitter or other flat-loss device will typically pass frequencies well above and below its operating range, but the loss at those frequencie may be higher than the guaranteed flat-loss of the device. It may not be much higher, possibly only a couple of dB or so, but it still fails spec, and as such cannot be considered operational in those frequencies. To be effective against a high level interference carrier, the device may need to attenuate the signal at the offending frequency by 10, 20, even 30 or 40 dB. If the level of the MoCa carrier is no higher than the lowest QAM carrier, then dropping its level by 15 - 20 dB is probably fine, but most 900 MHz splitters probably attenuate signals at 1150 MHz by only 3 or 4 dB more than at 800 MHz, if that.


----------



## richsadams

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I'm one of the people who *have* read most or all of this thread, and I've learned a lot. I don't agree that it's "beating a dead horse".


The point of my post had nothing to do with the original topic and ongoing discussion in this thread (which is more than legitimate IMO), but was in reference to the proposition that something TiVo is doing or has done is so egregiously harmful to its owners that the only route of remedy is a class action lawsuit.


----------



## lrhorer

richsadams said:


> The point of my post had nothing to do with the original topic and ongoing discussion in this thread (which is more than legitimate IMO), but was in reference to the proposition that something TiVo is doing or has done is so egregiously harmful to its owners that the only route of remedy is a class action lawsuit.


The notion of a lawsuit is patently ludicrous in any event. All any manufacturer needs to to to prove themselves absent malice (and thus immune to damage litigation) is to show their device meets its published specifications, and that the device was being used with signals that did not meet those specs. A manufacturer is not liable in any state of which I am aware for any damages incurred from use of a device in an environment outside its published specs.


----------



## exdishguy

lrhorer said:


> That said, in order of what I believe to be the major contributor to these problems and the best solution there to to the most minor contributor, we have:
> 
> MoCa or other spurious carriers : Install 850 MHz Low Pass Filter
> High levels : Attenuate the signal
> Skewed levels : Equalize the signal


Thanks for your informative posts. I've tried the low pass filter combined with the attenuators and I still have problems. Today, I finally managed to get an MCard installed and as you'd expect - it offered no improvement (other than on my wallet).

I think item three on your list is definitely one of the culprits as I've had techs check signal integrity on a couple of different channels and they aren't consistent at all. That said, I've had the ONT changed already in case it wasn't modulating properly - but that didn't work either.

Coupled with the above, my neighbor has a Moto DVR and he consistently sees pixelization on some of the same channels I do. That would infer that some channels have issues at the head end or that his Moto does in fact struggle with skewed levels too.

I guess the bottom line is that this issue is multifaceted and Verizon is more culpable than Tivo (IMO) since their own equipment exhibits similar or the same problems as the Tivo's (albeit less frequently).

I do wonder though - can I assume that Tivo could not field update their units to work with Fios because they are using can-tuners vs. silicon tuners so the sensitivity/tolerances cannot be dialed in with firmware?


----------



## webin

exdishguy said:


> Coupled with the above, my neighbor has a Moto DVR and he consistently sees pixelization on some of the same channels I do. That would infer that some channels have issues at the head end or that his Moto does in fact struggle with skewed levels too.


My immediate thought would be that the errors are being introduced at the head end.... lrhorer would tell us that a confabulator modulation card (or something beyond my comprehension ) is dirty or dying and needs replacement. V7Goose was very successful demonstrating identical symptoms and convincing Verizon to replace something in the headend office, which fixed his pixellation completely.


----------



## wm2008

lrhorer, your misguided attempts to manipulate this thread are pathetic, and frankly your inability to consider anything other that Tivo perfection are laughable.

You make comments and statements about "standards" yet you cannot produce them. Where are these "standards" lrhorer? Where? Why does a sunrise meter show completely different measurements than the Tivo? Why? My "attempts" to fix the problem are "all but deliberately designed to fail"? Really? Let's see, I've had Verizon AND Tivo involved. I've asked ALL OF THEM what can be done. I've had Verizon HERE. I've added the friggin attenuators. I've experimented with them. All of this with a Moto unit displaying ZERO PIXELATION.

So *READ MY LIPS - READ MY LIPS- READ MY LIPS *to use your own language...

I - and "Normal" customers not having the benefit of being the obvious right hand of the CATV gods like you are simply want the devices to work. I don't CARE if behind the scenes the Moto is dropping frames so long as it isn't visible and yields no unacceptable external evidence. I NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER (that enough for you?) said that the tuner could - or should - be designed for "infinite" variability. Only that it be designed for REASONABLE variability. Perhaps - just maybe - to the extent that Moto has done. Maybe to you that's unreasonable. Maybe you're just unreasonable.

So, since you got personal and attacked, let me be more clear. I do not hold your "experience" or attitude in high regard. A Tivo HD which is from "your" engineering perspective (whatever that is) designed perfectly but which functions with flaws is an inferior product than one that has a "failure mode" (which ANY responsible and competent engineer should understand) yielding no critical failures.

I don't own a sunrise meter. I am like thousands of other people who are forced to have others such as Verizon attempt to analyze this. Your position seems to be that every customer must be a CATV engineer, and that attempts to remediate this in any other way are pathetic and "designed to fail". Your attitude is SO incredibly Tivo biased that it is beyond description. Tivo themselves have been of zero value. None. Zilch. Their solution? Call Verizon. Well, I've done that. All the VZ equipment works perfectly.

So, genius, what happens next? How about a scalable solution that allows for Tivo customes (you know, those people who are NOT CATV engineers but paid Tivo for a product and service) to get their products to work? Other than of course those people quitting their jobs and going back to school to become CATV engineers? Since the people who design, manufacture, distribute, sell and support the product (Tivo) have only one answer (Call Verizon) and since Verizon can't find anything wrong and correctly point to the fact that their equipment is functioning, what next?

You're right. The title of this thread is not accurate. It ought to be titled "Tivo pixelation issues - try some attenuators and if they don't work screw you".


----------



## JustAllie

Between all the arguing, has anyone come up with a reliable fix for this problem? Should I try the attenuators?

18 pages of back and forth are a lot to wade through.

My problem is periodic pixelization on some SD channels. (I don't watch the HD channels that much, so I can't say what they're like.) Most recently I've noticed it on CBS and NBC. It doesn't seem to be my Series3 hard drive that's at fault, because when I rewind, the pixelization occurs in the exact same spot -- so presumably it's in the signal from FiOS, or an issue with the CableCARDs, or something. 

I have some attenuators from SmartHome -- which one(s) should I try first?


----------



## bicker

wm2008 said:


> lrhorer, your misguided attempts to manipulate this thread are pathetic, and frankly your inability to consider anything other that Tivo perfection are laughable.


Let's be clear about something. lrhorer and I rarely agree with each other -- and indeed there are many aspects of this very issue that lrhorer and I disagree about, however I think it is safe to say that we both agree that TiVo is *not *unequivocally in the wrong here, as you're trying to assert.

As I mentioned before, since Motorola found a way to, it is likely that TiVo _could _have made their product more robust, with regard to this failure mode. Beyond that, in general, TiVo could have done a much better job with regard to making the TiVo S3 and HD more robust -- there are other instances of lack-of-robustness in TiVo's designs, that we've discussed over the years.

However, they had no obligation to do so, and are not necessarily wrong for not doing so. They'll lose some sales and incur some other costs, perhaps, for not having made their product more robust, but for all we know it would have cost them more to engineer the product to reduce the extent to which the failure mode is noticeable. There is no minimum level of robustness that a CE manufacturer must achieve in their designs, and to assert that there is shows a distinct lack of understanding of the mass-market consumer marketplace, just like asserting that there is no way to design more robustness into the product (i.e., making the failure mode less noticeable by end-users) shows a distinct lack of understanding of systems engineering.



wm2008 said:


> So, since you got personal and attacked, let me be more clear.


To be fair, I think you got personal with folks in this thread who you disagreed with long before lrhorer got person with you. I think you're better off quitting that issue before you fall too much further behind, since his responses to you are substantially just response-in-kind, and therefore perfectly justifiable as such.



wm2008 said:


> Your attitude is SO incredibly Tivo biased that it is beyond description.


You are better off quitting this issue, too, before you fall too much further behind. Your attitude is "so incredibly" anti-TiVo biased. Balance, unremarkably, is found somewhere between your extreme (and therefore indefensible) position and his extreme (and therefore indefensible) position: TiVo isn't "right"; and TiVo isn't "wrong".


----------



## Dmon4u

JustAllie said:


> I have some attenuators from SmartHome -- which one(s) should I try first?


Cutting through the chaff around here,

I had good results starting with 16 db (a 10 and a 6) and then adjusting up or down from there.


----------



## thecrave

I've had good results with a diplexer (no attenuators) thus far.


----------



## NJRonbo

I thought I had posted this here previously....maybe I did, maybe not.

I wrote Tivo corporate shortly before Christmas. Received a call from
a Tech located at their corporate office.

Basically, Tivo has been aware of this problem for quite some time but
claim there is little they can do to modify their players without the chance
of making them unusable on cable systems. In other words, if they try to
correct the problem for one then it affects the other.

I have no knowledge of whether they were being truthful or not, but they
did at least call me back and not only explain their situation but try to help
me correct it. They also extended my trial period for an extra month.

I used a -10db attenuator and also (per Tivo's suggestion) added a short
coax patch cord with barrel connector to slightly bring the signal down lower.

Thus far, the pixelation is totally gone.


----------



## substance12

NJRonbo said:


> I thought I had posted this here previously....maybe I did, maybe not.
> 
> I wrote Tivo corporate shortly before Christmas. Received a call from
> a Tech located at their corporate office.
> 
> Basically, Tivo has been aware of this problem for quite some time but
> claim there is little they can do to modify their players without the chance
> of making them unusable on cable systems. In other words, if they try to
> correct the problem for one then it affects the other.
> 
> I have no knowledge of whether they were being truthful or not, but they
> did at least call me back and not only explain their situation but try to help
> me correct it. They also extended my trial period for an extra month.
> 
> I used a -10db attenuator and also (per Tivo's suggestion) added a short
> coax patch cord with barrel connector to slightly bring the signal down lower.
> 
> Thus far, the pixelation is totally gone.


thanks for the update. can you post the address you mailed to them?

also, what do you mean by a coax patch cord?


----------



## lrhorer

exdishguy said:


> Coupled with the above, my neighbor has a Moto DVR and he consistently sees pixelization on some of the same channels I do. That would infer that some channels have issues at the head end or that his Moto does in fact struggle with skewed levels too.


A head-end issue is the more likely cause in this scenario, although the latter is possible.



exdishguy said:


> I guess the bottom line is that this issue is multifaceted and Verizon is more culpable than Tivo (IMO) since their own equipment exhibits similar or the same problems as the Tivo's (albeit less frequently).


It is suggestive of that, but hardly conclusive. It could even be a case of two bad DVRs, unlikely as that is.

I do wonder though - can I assume that Tivo could not field update their units to work with Fios because they are using can-tuners vs. silicon tuners so the sensitivity/tolerances cannot be dialed in with firmware?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what the hardware in the TiVo HD is, but even the S3's can-tuners could be replaced. The bottom line is the sensitivity of the TiVo is just fine. I had intended to get some attenuators the last couple of days to investigate the Tivo's minimum sensitivity, but other things have intervened.


----------



## NJRonbo

Thomas S. Rogers, Tivo CEO
2160 Gold Street 
P.O. Box 2160 
Alviso, CA 95002-2160

A coax patch cord is a 1-2' piece of coax that you can buy at Radio Shack.

The idea is not to over attenuate or you will lose signal on some channels.

For that reason, the Tivo tech said he generally recommends using a -10db 
attenuator combined with a small patch cord with a barrel connector to bring
the signal down ever so slightly more without over doing it.

For me it worked great. The -10db attenuator still resulted in fleeting glimpses
of pixelation that lasted seconds at a time. Really not a big deal, but once I added
the additional piece of coax and the connector (female to female) it totally removed
any random pixelation.

Now, from what I hear, each home is different. Some homes need more
attenuation. It's even recommended that you look at the Tivo menu and make
certain that you stay within certain signal parameters (as probably discussed
in this thread).

I don't have the time to sit and fiddle with stuff. I did this blindly, hoping to
throw on an attenuator and get results. So far, it has worked.


----------



## lrhorer

wm2008 said:


> lrhorer, your misguided attempts to manipulate this thread are pathetic, and frankly your inability to consider anything other that Tivo perfection are laughable.


Feel free to laugh. All of my TiVos work perfectly well WRT this issue, as do the vast majority of Tivos out there. Frankly, I no longer care in the least about yours. I will, however, continue to try to help those who actually want their Tivos to work, which clearly you do not.



wm2008 said:


> You make comments and statements about "standards" yet you cannot produce them. Where are these "standards" lrhorer? Where?


I produced them once. I'm not going to reproduce them again. It's clear to me you almost certainly do not wish to see them, but on the odd chance you do, look up FCC Regulations CFR 47 part 76, wherein CATV Proof of Performance specifications for CATV systems are spelled out.

By the way, specifically stated in those regulations is the requirement "...maximum level must not overload subscriber's equipment. "

Please feel free to go argue with the FCC over that, as you have done ad nauseum in this thread.



wm2008 said:


> Why does a sunrise meter show completely different measurements than the Tivo?


Not being there, I cannot say for certain. The values reported by you , however, were horrible, and even a 30 mile long CATV cascade should have much better S/N than that. Given the FIOS cascade is 1 amp deep, if the S/N is really that bad, then there is something horribly wrong with the FIOS system. That said, there are plenty of possible causes of the situation.

On Tuesday, I had Time Warner come out to diagnose a problem we were having locally. Now, the problem was known to be happening to TiVos city wide, so the truck roll was not really necessary, but rather than muddy the water, I allowed them to come to the house to do proper testing. Time Warner also employs Sunrise test sets (actually, so do we, but different ones), and both techs had Sunrise meters with them. Testing the very same drop, the two sets showed more than a 6 DB difference in level on all channels. Independent verification showed one of the meters was incorrect, the other accurate. Since the problem was entirely unrelated to levels, or indeed to signal quality at all, it really did not matter, but the fact I was able to prove to the techs the problem was not with the TiVos prevented them from blaming them, as they tried to do at first.

Not that it is actually relevant to this case, but Scientific Atlanta DVRs did not have the problem. Clearly TiVo was at fault for poor design, right? Wrong. A number of CSRs had made a systematic error in setting up TiVo accounts which did not become evident until the Tuning Adapter was deployed. I'm not saying anything like this is at issue on FIOS systems, but the simple fact is a working device of different type / design is not diagnostic of very much in this situation.



wm2008 said:


> Why? My "attempts" to fix the problem are "all but deliberately designed to fail"? Really? Let's see, I've had Verizon AND Tivo involved.


Merely getting someone involved, as you put it, isn't going to help. To the best of my ability to tell, no one with which you have dealt has had the resources, either mental or physical, to fix the problem. The very fact it isn't fixed bears this out.



wm2008 said:


> I've asked ALL OF THEM what can be done.


Asking a moron for advice is hardly the best way to obtain a solution. How many of them were engineers? Why is it when you do ask an engineer what can be done, you completely ignore his instructions?



wm2008 said:


> I've had Verizon HERE.


Whoopie. You did not ask them the pertinent questions I told you to ask. You did not report any significant feedback. Apparently you did not have them measure the level of the MoCa carrier or other carriers above 1000 MHz. Instead of actually asking what the levels were and writing them down, you apparently just took his word for it that "everything is fine". I can't count the number of times technicians have told that lie to me, including from many who worked for me. It doesn't take a genius to know many people will tell a facile lie in order to get out of doing any extra work. It also doesn't take a genius to know someone may be mistaken. The only way to know is to double-check the work, and that means having him read the numbers and writing it down.



wm2008 said:


> I've added the friggin attenuators.


Which I already expressly told you is doing little other than farting in the wind. Why did you do this? What purpose did it serve? Why do you persist in intentionally doing things that have very little chance of succeeding and then blaming TiVo for your own malfeasance? A professional engineer whose former field was the very one in question has told you what to do. Until you do it, you have no cause to blame TiVo, Verizon, or anyone else.



wm2008 said:


> I've experimented with them. All of this with a Moto unit displaying ZERO PIXELATION.


Oh, we didn't know that. Obviously, that solves the problem, and so you're happy.



wm2008 said:


> I - and "Normal" customers not having the benefit of being the obvious right hand of the CATV gods like you are simply want the devices to work.


Apparently not. Apparently you just want to crow about how the Motorola works and the Tivo doesn't. Otherwise, you would have taken my advice.



wm2008 said:


> I don't CARE if behind the scenes the Moto is dropping frames so long as it isn't visible and yields no unacceptable external evidence. I NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER (that enough for you?) said that the tuner could - or should - be designed for "infinite" variability. Only that it be designed for REASONABLE variability.


I've already shown the Tivo has a more than 17dB window, which is more than respectable: it is a factor of more than 25 from the lowest to the highest level, and quite a bit wider than an average TV set. I never said anything about the Motorola dropping frames, or anything else. The Motorola is not relevant.



wm2008 said:


> Perhaps - just maybe - to the extent that Moto has done. Maybe to you that's unreasonable. Maybe you're just unreasonable.


Motorola hasn't done it, as evidenced by your post. The S/N is worse, and its ability to handle lower - but not apparently low - signal levels is by your own evidence inferior to the Tivo's. That it works for you does not even begin to mean it has a wider tolerance range than the Tivo. More importantly, you keep harping on the sensitivity and high signal tolerance of the sets, when it very likely has little to do with the situation. I suspect the Tivo could be re-designed to handle a 50 watt input signal and it would make little difference.



wm2008 said:


> So, since you got personal and attacked, let me be more clear. I do not hold your "experience" or attitude in high regard. A Tivo HD which is from "your" engineering perspective (whatever that is) designed perfectly


There is no such thing as perfect design, and the Tivo is certainly not perfect. The Tivo meets and exceeds industry standard specifications for handling signal levels, both high and low. That is all it can reasonably be required to do WRT this issue. You can rant, rave, and squeal all you want, and it will not change the fact. That, or you can take my advice and have the situation fixed in a matter of a couple of days.



wm2008 said:


> Your attitude is SO incredibly Tivo biased that it is beyond description. Tivo themselves have been of zero value. None. Zilch. Their solution? Call Verizon. Well, I've done that. All the VZ equipment works perfectly.


The only bias in my attitude is a (or was) a genuine desire to fix the situation. Calling Tivo is never going to help with this problem, ever. Calling them is a waste of time. It's not their problem, it never was their problem, and it will never be their problem. (Caveat: I don't recall your saying the TiVo had been replaced. This all could be the result of having a bad TiVo, although I seriously doubt it.) You can rant and rave at them all day long, and it won't solve your problem. You could force the company into bankruptcy,and it won't solve your problem. You could hold the senior staff of TiVo hostage and it won't solve your problem. The one and only thing that will solve your problem is to bring the signals at the back of the Tivo into line with industry standards. Period. This can only be done by someone on site at the source of the problem, which seems likely to be at your house. The most likely means of achieving the end are getting rid of OOB carriers and balancing the signal. If that still doesn't help, an investigation of what may be extremely low S/N issues on the FIOS plant may be in order. Once all of this has been addressed, clearing the FIOS plant of all prospective issues, then it may be appropriate to talk about TiVo's engineering, but even then only after the Tivo has been replaced.



wm2008 said:


> So, genius,


I am not quite a genius. My IQ tests at slightly below genius level. It is more than sufficient to this task, however.



wm2008 said:


> what happens next? How about a scalable solution that allows for Tivo customes (you know, those people who are NOT CATV engineers but paid Tivo for a product and service) to get their products to work?


How about you follow my advice? That has a good chance of working.



wm2008 said:


> Other than of course those people quitting their jobs and going back to school to become CATV engineers?


You (and they) are already paying Verizon a good little chunk of change for engineering services. Avail yourself of them.



wm2008 said:


> Since the people who design, manufacture, distribute, sell and support the product (Tivo) have only one answer (Call Verizon) and since Verizon can't find anything wrong and correctly point to the fact that their equipment is functioning, what next?


By your own testimony, the FIOS equipment isn't working. A S/N as low as the one your reported is completely out of line. What's more, you did not report back on the actual levels, flatness, or magnitude of OOB carriers. Without that data, no one can claim the FIOS signal is properly operational.



wm2008 said:


> You're right. The title of this thread is not accurate. It ought to be titled "Tivo pixelation issues - try some attenuators and if they don't work screw you".


What can I do to get through to you? Despite my explicit instructions to the contrary, you insisted on @#%#ing around with attenuators , when they had little chance of fixing the problem. You were told this, several times. Now you are complaining because p*ssing on the spark plug didn't make the engine run. "Screw You", is starting to seem very much like the appropriate response to someone who asks for advice, refuses to follow it, and then whines about the fact his refusal to follow that advice results in a poor outcome.


----------



## lrhorer

NJRonbo said:


> A coax patch cord is a 1-2' piece of coax that you can buy at Radio Shack.


A 2' patch cord is not going to significantly affect signals (unless it is bad). The loss of a typical RG-6 cable is less than 0.02dB at 50 MHz and less than 0.14 dB at 1 GHz. A 20 meter patch cord will definitely have an affect on the signal, but not necessarily the desired one. If the system tilt is very positive and the level somewhat high, then a moderately long piece of coax will help. If the system tilt is negative, then the last thing one should add is additional cable, although once again a jumper less than 3 meters long is not going to have any significant effect.



NJRonbo said:


> The idea is not to over attenuate or you will lose signal on some channels.


Which will easily happen if the high frequencies are lower than the low frequencies and an additional unnecessary piece of cable is added to the equation. Variations of 1 dB or less are generally not significant.



NJRonbo said:


> Now, from what I hear, each home is different. Some homes need more attenuation.


You don't have to hear very well to know this. First of all, reportedly the output level varies somewhat with the model of ONT installed. Secondly, some homes have only 1 TV, while others have 4 or more. At the highest frequencies on the FIOS lineup, a 2-way splitter will lose about 4.5 dB, while a 4-way splitter will lose almost 9 dB, and an 8-way splitter will lose over 13 dB. On top of that, some houses are large (one with more than 4 TV sets probably will be), while others are quite small. This means the length of the drops will vary quite a bit. At 50 MHz, the RG-6 cable will attenuate the signal by about .05 dB / meter, while at 1000 MHz, it attenuates about 0.24 dB / meter. Thus, a more or less typical 20 meter drop will attenuate the low end about 1 dB and the high end about 4.8 dB. Increaseing or decreasing the drop length will change the losses correspondingly, resulting in higher or lower levels at the receiver.



NJRonbo said:


> I don't have the time to sit and fiddle with stuff. I did this blindly, hoping to throw on an attenuator and get results. So far, it has worked.


Which is OK-ish. It's a quick, simple, and inexpensive thing to try. I would not rate its odds of success terribly high, but if it worked in your case, then I'm happy for your luck. It is very much like shooting rabbits in comeplete darkness. The fact rabbit are common means it is not an entirely futile effort, but eve in the most rabbit-infested field, actually hitting one is not too terribly likely.


----------



## webin

All this talk lately has re-motivated me to do some analysis of my fios signal, and I've come up with a question.

I looked at 45 HD channels in DVR Diagnostics, all with Tuner 0 (which seems to produce more quality issues than the other). I found that channels with a lower frequency have higher signal strength and SNR (I also found SNR and Str seem to be almost perfectly linked). I seem to have the most picture quality issues on the local HD channels, which are on frequencies 507MHz, 513MHz, and 519MHz. I also didn't find any channels on frequencies in the 400-500MHz range.

Thinking about out-of-band carries and such.... can anyone think of a reason Verizon hasn't put channels on frequencies in this range? (Conversely, can anyone find a channel that IS in that range?) I'm wondering if there's a logical connection between that gap in frequencies, and my problem channels being the very next frequencies used. I'm wondering if there's some non-channel signal utilizing that range that's interfering with the cosmic karma.

On a separate (but equal) note, I have found that MOST of my RS Corrected and RS Uncorrected errors are occurring on the problematic local HD channels, as would be expected with signal issues. I was watching channel 506 (CBS) for a while in particular, and found my signal strength was more variable than other channels... even dropping momentarily to 0 from time to time. I doubt this is related to my attenuation (all tests were with 6dB attenuation), but will have to decide if it's a head-end issue.

One last editors note: My use of the term "problematic" is relative. A problematic channel for me is still very watchable.


----------



## richsadams

webin said:


> All this talk lately has re-motivated me to do some analysis of my fios signal, and I've come up with a question. <snip>


Good questions and observations. I don't have any answers but I'm also interested in hearing from others about your findings.

Thinking about issues with local HD channels, would it be worthwhile to try OTA to see how things look? I had an indoor Terk antenna connected to our Series3 for a while and the local network HD channel's PQ was remarkably good...as good as Comcast's. I think you're within 10 miles of the local antenna array and if you're still having problems I'm wondering if it might be worth a try? It wouldn't solve the VZ issues of course, but you'd at least have decent quality recordings until they are resolved.

That said, I saw minor pixelization/macorblocking once in a while even with OTA broadcasts, so I don't think it can ever be perfect.


----------



## JustAllie

Dmon4u said:


> Cutting through the chaff around here,
> 
> I had good results starting with 16 db (a 10 and a 6) and then adjusting up or down from there.


My pixelization is very sporadic, so I just started with a -10 dB and will see how that goes. Thanks very much for the response.

It turns out that I already have a short patch cord between the attenuator and the TiVo, because I split the signal between my TiVo Series3 and my housemate's TiVo Series2 in this particular room. So I am probably already attenuating the signal by splitting it.


----------



## necrotaur

Hello,

I have had the two THD's working fine for a while now, but noticed a couple issues recently:

QAM channels at 195 MHz (ESPNNEWS HD & Starz4Kids) are horribly pixelating and are unwatchable. I have not watched these before, so I don't know if its been an issue

QAM Channels at 201 MHz (ESNPU HD & HSN HD) don't even get a signal.

I have done everything, including adjusting / removing attenuation removing my NIM100's and diplexers (which were properly terminated, BTW) and checking the connections. Is anyone else in VHO8 seeing these issues? I find it hard to see that these two specific frequencies are having issues, and it being directly related to the attenuation issue.

Adjusting the attenuation affects any channel except the ones on 195, and I never see a signal on 201.

If anyone can check what is going on and post, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!

Steve


----------



## sinanju

necrotaur said:


> If anyone can check what is going on and post, I would appreciate it.


Those channels are not on those frequencies in my neck of the woods. You're going to have to give people an idea of where you are if you want someone to compare their experience to yours.


----------



## necrotaur

Sorry, I thought I said I was in VH08 (Philadelphia). As far as I am aware - V* standardizes on frequencies:

195 MHz = ESPN News (Channel 572) and Starz4HD (Channel 845)

If Someone can tune to 572 or 845 and check - if those are your numbers, and if the the frequency in the DVR Diagnostics Screen (under Messages and Settings->Settings->Remote, Cable Card & Devices->CableCard Decoder->Configure CableCard 1->DVR Diagnostics) matches 195 MHz, can you report if it comes in ok?

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## sinanju

necrotaur said:


> Sorry, I thought I said I was in VH08 (Philadelphia). As far as I am aware - V* standardizes on frequencies:
> 
> 195 MHz = ESPN News (Channel 572) and Starz4HD (Channel 845)
> 
> If Someone can tune to 572 or 845 and check - if those are your numbers, and if the the frequency in the DVR Diagnostics Screen (under Messages and Settings->Settings->Remote, Cable Card & Devices->CableCard Decoder->Configure CableCard 1->DVR Diagnostics) matches 195 MHz, can you report if it comes in ok?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve


My bad. I must have grabbed the wrong channel from the guide when I popped it up.

572 is on 195MHz for me, so you're right about that. The channel looks fine here in Massachusetts... that's with the cable split 4 ways and an additional -12dB applied at the TiVo.


----------



## necrotaur

No prob.

I have a variable attenuator and have gone from 0 to 20db with no change in signal strength. I can vary the SNR from around 33 to 29 in the range, but RS uncorrected just increments insanely fast. I could see it being a hardware issue, but it happens on both TiVos with all 4 cablecards. I have unused connections terminated, validated all connections are tightened, filtered out MOCA with diplexers and attenuated the signal, and still this channel is an issue.

My neighbor has a Moto HD box and I got him to tune 572, and it comes in ok. Argghhhh - this is so frustrating. 

Anyhow, thanks for checking.

Steve


----------



## percyad

Okay folks - I've been quietly reading and trying different suggestions mentioned over the last few weeks trying to get my TivoHD working with Verizon Fios here in Buffalo, NY. I've had Verizon here twice (big surprise - they found everything within specifications), changed out virtually every piece of cable and splitter, tried three different low-pass filters (two diplexers and a LP filter provided by Verizon), all different attenuation values, disconnected the cable from the router and I still get bursts of RS Uncorrected errors and severe pixelization.

And yes, the Motorola STB and QIP-7214 I also have in the house have perfect picture all the time. (I've even tried turning them off and disconnecting them to see if they are the source of the problem)

I am convinced that there is something else going on here. If it were just attenuating the signal, I would have this fixed weeks ago. 

So, what I'd like to do is get a little more scientific about narrowing down the problem beyond my specific situation. 

If you have tried all the above and are still having problems, how about posting the following information about your installation:

What city do you live in?
Model # of the ONT:
Model and DOM of the TivoHD/Series3?
Do you have any Motorola devices on the cable too?
If so, which devices?
Is there a 860MHz low pass filter on the ONT?
Have you tried the low pass filter?
Attenuation? How much?
Actiontec Router?
Using Cat-5 Ethernet or MOCA?
What channels have problems?
When does it happen (all the time/in bursts/certian times of the day)?
Any other symptoms?

Maybe we can figure this out for Tivo and Verizon and help them fix it!


----------



## sinanju

percyad said:


> So, what I'd like to do is get a little more scientific about narrowing down the problem beyond my specific situation.
> 
> If you have tried all the above and are still having problems, how about posting the following information about your installation[...]


When reading through the thread, you must have missed my invitation to collect Verizon problem report numbers and consolidate them on 12/2.

Unfortunately, there didn't seem to be much interest here and the ones I did collect and present in consolidated form to the Verizon Chronic Issues group for their consideration resulted in a simple, "Don't bother, we know who they are."


----------



## techjunkie

I can see that this thread has grown tremendously, but putting aside everything after page one for the moment, thanks to the OP for the original advice. My issuse is resolved. Too much attenuation fixed the "broken" channels, but "broke" working channels. Finding the right level was easy though:

I have two Series 3 HD TiVos and three FiOS SD boxes and the FiOS modem all connected by RG6 home runs back to a Verizon-provided 6 way splitter. Despite the attenuation naturally provided by the 6-way splitter, I still had horrible frequent pixellation only on the SHO HD channels 868-874 on all four TiVo S3 HD tuners (2x2). Every other channel was perfect.

Having been through a similar situation with these TiVos and Cablevision of LI previously, I anticipated painstaking phone calls and cable card issues, boosters, shoulder shrugs and finger pointing. To my relief, Verizon was support was top notch - leagues ahead of Cablevision. Upon calling them, after only a very brief wait, the first person the automated system connected me to was well versed at cable card issues. I was pleasantly surprised. As a preliminary attempt to solve the problem, she reset all my equipment remotely, but being that I was not home at the time, I'd have to call back upon returning home to see if the resets resolved the issue, or if it would have to be escalated to some other team. Having dealt with Cablevision's cards and technicians, I was fully prepared to arrive home to find all my channels completely lost.

After ending that call, I googled the issue and found this thread. (Thanks again.)

When I got home, I was pleased to discover that although there was no improvement, all my channels were still there.

I dug up a 10db attenuator that I had laying around (Cablevision had put it on their own equipment to protect it from the booster they installed trying to fix pixellation on some HD channels when they were my provider) and tried it on one of the TiVos. It didn't completely solve the problem, but did make an improvement, leaving less significant, less frequent pixellation on the affected channels and did no harm to any others.

Word of caution: unplug your TiVo from the AC outlet before adding the inline attenuators. I managed to do something to my cable cards by adding it while the TiVo was powered on and even after restarts, found I had lost most of my subscribed channels. It would start up already tuned to a working SHO HD channel but after surfing away from it, I could not pick it up again. A second call to Verizon proved to be just as impressive as the first. This tech. reprogrammed my cable cards successfully in a few minutes and was surprised to hear that I had already spent $$ ordering my own attenuators. He was prepared to send a technician out for a visit to solve the problem and made no mention or threat of any charge if the problem was deemed to be with my own equipment.

I had already purchased new in-line attenuators online from Home Network Supply because the vendor linked on page 1 was out of stock of the variety pack and I wasn't sure I'd be able to find the one that I mentioned before. I got 2x10db, 2x6db and 2x3db (no 2db offering from HNS). They arrived two days after ordering and I'm happy to report that things are _almost_ perfect now.

16db was too much attenuation - while it fixed the SHO HD channels, it CAUSED bad pixellation on ONE Encore channel, 360. I dropped back to 13db (10+3) on one TiVo and found only the slightest, infrequent pixellation on ch. 360 and no problem on the SHO HD channels, or any other. On my other TiVo 3 I used two 6db attenuators, but because of the length of the two combined and the lack of space behind that unit, for flexibility's sake, I had to add a 6" piece of RG6 and a female to female coupling connector. I'll consider that unit to be attenuated by 12db + whatever the short cable and coupling connector adds (12.2db?). The results are almost identical to that of the first unit. I actually have component cables run between rooms, leftover from a time before the two units could share programs over ethernet. This allowed me to do a PIP comparison of both units tuned to ch 360 at the same time. Each would occassionaly suffer minor pixellation, but oddly enough, never at the same time or on the same part of the screen.

In the end, the only pixellation I ever see on any of the four tuners is the occasional pixellation on a single channel (360), and no loss of audio.

All in all, this was an inexpensive fix that was easy to implement.

I suppose I could call Verizon again and have them come out and tinker with the signal strength on specific frequencies to just attenuate the fequency range of the originally affected channels but it's really not worth the trouble just for the occasional pixel pop on ch. 360. (If it were say, a major HD network and happend during LOST, I would call them, or maybe try 11-12db attenuation first.)

I called Verizon years before FIOS was available in my area to see if it would support cable-cards, and then purchased my TiVo 3 units immediately after. After two years of waiting for FiOS to be available in my neighborhood, now that I finally have both, I couldn't be happier with the two combined. For the first time since going Hi-Def, (having tried multiple TiVo versions and TV providers along the way, and few horrid provider DVRs) I am once again finally as satisfied as I was with Dish Networks and my turbonet and storage modded Philips TiVo 1, before ever HDTV existed.


----------



## webin

techjunkie said:


> When I got home, I was pleased to discover that although there was no improvement, all my channels were still there.


That line made me laugh... it's like going to the dentist, and being happy to still have a working kidney when you leave.

I'm glad you were able to successfully find a solution to your pixellation, and your story is excellent information. Happy fiosing (that's a word, right?)


----------



## techjunkie

I should know better than to tempt Fate by posting out loud. After enjoying the last half of the Matrix on one HBO HD channel, I switched to Transformers about 30 minutes in on another HBO HD channel. About an hour in, pixellation on that channel got so bad, it actually stalled at one point, requiring me to switch channels to get it going again.  I powered down, removed the 6db attenuator and left the new 10db one in. Maybe the new one is somehow stronger than the old 10db one I had, because the SHO HD channels don't show any pixellation and neither does Encore on 360. I made it through the rest of Transformers without a hitch. Since then I've been switching between Disturbia and The Matrix which both started on other HD channels just as Transformers ended. So far so good. Fingers crossed that this will keep working at all hours of the day.

I checked the 6-way in the attic - each output is labeled 11.5db. I have an antronix 8-way that must attenuate more, so my next move if things go south again is to try that switch with the 10db attenuator. If still no joy, then I'll call FIOS. Not sure what the bedroom TiVo is doing signal-wise. It's 1:20 AM. Time for bed. ; )


----------



## techjunkie

I realize I'm late to the party here, and apologize for not reading through the entire thread before posting this, but it occurs to me that the TiVo probably attenuates the entire 0-1000 Mhz frequency range up or down internally based on some sampling, but can't selectively attenuate specific frequency range blocks up or down. If that's correct, then knocking the entire frequency range down with an attenuator isn't a perfect solution if the problem stems from some blocks having stronger than average signal strength and others having weaker than average signal strength.

EDIT: hey guess what? I'm still up on a work night because I decided to wade through 14 pages of this thread. still dont' know what my bedroom TiVo is doing because I haven't been to bed yet. not that it would matter, the s/n ratio probably changes at different times of day and now isn't when I usually watch TV. So, carrying on... having just received FIOS, I'm pretty sure I've got the newest components available, and I've read that it might be necessary to equalize the signal strength across all the entire frequency range so my next question is this... how? Is there an equalizer that I can purchase, or does FIOS have to equalize the signal for me? Beginning not to care...must sleep.


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## hmm52

techjunkie - I read your post before going to sleep but didn't respond. I think you asked, but edited out later, something to the effect "Is there something VZ can do on their end to tweak their settings (to clean up their feed)?" The short answer - Yes!!

I've been meaning to enter the tempest between wm2008 and Irhorer but haven't made the time yet. I have a long list of speculations, beliefs, based on some years of living with various cablecard devices, FiOS and Comcast. The one that apples to your situation is this:

Adjusting signal level through attenuation may and often does help devices cleanly tune signals with line errors. But the faults causing tiling/pixelation are usually not a result of signal level itself. While the errors can be introduced anywhere in the feed - source --> VHO --> CO --> street --> home distribution, most of my problems, and probably many others', were gifts from the CO (central office). The times when my problem frequencies were checked at street cable end entering ONT by top VZ techs, they were loaded with line errors; the matter was then bounced to the CO and completely remedied shortly thereafter (less than 2 days).

It's worth checking everything in your house anyway and Verizon will probably require that before checking the street feed - my experience with the top techs also. I found FiOS service to be most responsive when it was new to my area; Internet then TV. The challenge is in getting the right tech to take an interest in your case then pass it on the CO if necessary. Good luck with that. There is only so much a subscriber can do in house. Rather than putting much energy into calls to TiVo or into microfine tuning your signal level, I recommend trying to push the issue to your CO. My best guess is that the cause of your pixelation is there.


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## exdishguy

I've had FIOS out to my house so many times I've literally lost count. The last trip I had an arrogant a$$ FIOS network tech assigned to my field tech walked the tech through testing every drop with his sunrise meter starting from the ONT out. They replaced the ONT, checked the fiber connections at the ONT and street but refused to check the CO. The result is that with attenuators I have most channels working pretty well - but then again, I've had that for a while now. The problem channels were on my local HD channels and now they've moved into the 900s.

Interestingly enough, each drop my tech tested with his sunrise meter FAILED but the network tech had him read the BER, SNR, and dbmV to him and said the drops were fine. But here are my concerns with the findings:

1. The SNR fluctuated wildly on some channels. I had to ask the tech to specifically plug in the freq to test the problem channels. Typically the techs only check four channels across the band by default.

2. The gain varied across the band quire a lot - I think channel 3 was +6dbm and channel 120 was over +18dbm. The network tech had the field tech attenuate the signal at the ONT by 3db but I still had to add as much as 14db at each of my Tivos.

3. Of course, the Moto DVR worked fine. I had the tech go into the diagnostic screen and their counter for corrected/uncorrected errors were zeros and every now and then I'd see errors but the counter would reset instead of cumulatively displaying them. 

4. Also noteworthy to me was a stat called "AGC 12&#37;". The Moto boxes have an AGC built in and according to Tivo, the Tivo's do NOT have an AGC.

Soooo...here is my latest theory:

a) that Verizon purposely jacks up their signals output and does so unevenly across the band. Why? Because they know that their equipment can handle it with the AGC they had Moto put into their DVRs.

b) that attenuation may never work for some installs, such as mine, because the Tivo's don't have an AGC and my signals range so widely from one end of the band to the next. Some installs may be fine if the output power from the ONT is flatter across the band.

c) fiber path and/or CO problems can certainly be a contributing factor in some installs. I cannot rule the CO out for mine but Verizon has decided to tell me that my "Tivo's aren't compatible with their service". Nice to know after they told me it was when I bought the service.....FCC report filed yesterday.

This AGC thing really make a lot of sense to me but someone like Irhorer to comment on the technical viability of this theory. But an Automatic Gain Control, if present on the Moto and not the Tivo, would in fact automatically attenuate the signal to 0dbmV which may well be a major reason why the Moto boxes work with FIOS and Tivos are hit and miss at best.

If FIOS is doing this intentionally then it fries my a$$ and I may dump them and go to TW as soon as I can get a TA. Not sure if they'll be any better and I know the bitrates will be lower...but I have principals and cannot forgive this if that is what FIOS is doing.

Now if Tivo designed a box without an AGC that was intended to be sold aftermarket to cable customers all over N. America....well, that seems silly to me as well. But this is a design omission that cannot be changed in the field so I won't get anywhere with that. Besides, if the cable companies weren't doing everything they could do to undermine Cablecards and customer equipment (like Tivo) then this would not be an issue. But shame on Tivo for not anticipating that the cable companies would not give up their monopolistic and unethical ways so easily. 

One last rant...Moxi looked really interesting until they confirmed that their $800 box cannot stream video between other Moxi boxes on your home network. Are you friggin' kidding me? So if I buy $2,400 worth of Moxi HD DVRs I cannot share content between them? Talk about product managers with their heads up their a$$es.

Update - Tivo L2 now confirms that they have AGCs....I couldn't believe it when they told me they didn't.


----------



## Ziggy86

If AGC is not built in for Tivo can they (Tivo) make such a thing for their customers who are experiencing problems with pixelation as an ad on? I would even purchase it just to get a good picture if it helped.


----------



## exdishguy

Ziggy86 said:


> If AGC is not built in for Tivo can they (Tivo) make such a thing for their customers who are experiencing problems with pixelation as an ad on? I would even purchase it just to get a good picture if it helped.


Actually, the Tivo's have AGCs - I could not believe this when one of their 1st level support guys told me this. Sure enough, a L2 tech told me that they do in fact have AGCs.

I just picked up some of the Radioshack variable attenuators mentioned earlier in this thread and had the Verizon tech come by with his Sunrise meter to dial them in. Things are improved but it is only the first day...

Right now I still think that the Verizon signal is too hot and isn't flat enough across the band. +6dbm to +18dbm as measured from the ONT by the tech. So while we can usually attenuate and fix most of the band, invariably we start seeing issue pop up elsewhere in the band. So if my variable attenuators don't work, I think I am going to push to get Verizon to flatten the signal across the band....at least bring it within a 5dbm swing rather than 12dbm.


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## exdishguy

Ziggy86 said:


> If AGC is not built in for Tivo can they (Tivo) make such a thing for their customers who are experiencing problems with pixelation as an ad on? I would even purchase it just to get a good picture if it helped.


BTW - I work for a mixed-signal semiconductor company and have spoken to one of my RF engineers about designing a circuit that effectively "equalizes" the Verizon signal. My sense is that it won't be a cheap circuit and would require a DSP...and expensive software programming. But I'm not an EE so I'll see what my engineers come up with. Maybe they can dream up a cheap way to do this with an external dongle of some sort.


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## Ziggy86

exdishguy said:


> BTW - I work for a mixed-signal semiconductor company and have spoken to one of my RF engineers about designing a circuit that effectively "equalizes" the Verizon signal. My sense is that it won't be a cheap circuit and would require a DSP...and expensive software programming. But I'm not an EE so I'll see what my engineers come up with. Maybe they can dream up a cheap way to do this with an external dongle of some sort.


Keep us posted, please.


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## Ziggy86

exdishguy said:


> Actually, the Tivo's have AGCs - I could not believe this when one of their 1st level support guys told me this. Sure enough, a L2 tech told me that they do in fact have AGCs.
> 
> I just picked up some of the Radioshack variable attenuators mentioned earlier in this thread and had the Verizon tech come by with his Sunrise meter to dial them in. Things are improved but it is only the first day...
> 
> Right now I still think that the Verizon signal is too hot and isn't flat enough across the band. +6dbm to +18dbm as measured from the ONT by the tech. So while we can usually attenuate and fix most of the band, invariably we start seeing issue pop up elsewhere in the band. So if my variable attenuators don't work, I think I am going to push to get Verizon to flatten the signal across the band....at least bring it within a 5dbm swing rather than 12dbm.


How will they flatten the signal? To your house only or across the board?


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## exdishguy

Ziggy86 said:


> How will they flatten the signal? To your house only or across the board?


I really don't know. It's a theory at this point. I don't know if they can do this at the ONT or have to do it at the CO.

For now, the variable attenuators are doing a good job of "masking" the problem. I still see pixelization though so I'm going to keep pushing for an answer from both Tivo and Verizon.


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## Ziggy86

How long does the pixellation last, a few seconds? Is it enough to make you not watch the channel and is it constant or a few time a day?


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## sinanju

Ziggy86 said:


> How long does the pixellation last, a few seconds? Is it enough to make you not watch the channel and is it constant or a few time a day?


For me, the issue affects 6 channels and is like an elderly relative -- it has good days and bad. When it's bad, some of those 6 channels are unwatchable for an entire day. More than once just this month I've had to reschedule recordings around a pixelation storm.


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## NJRonbo

Since the attenuation I have seen little to no pixelation. I actually only see
traces now and then.


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## christoman

Not sure if this belongs in this thread or not, but a number of months ago I took the advice of this thread and used attenuators to fix my pixelation problem on both Tivo HDs (I have FIOS). All of a sudden this week, a large number of channels just won't tune at all. A few will bounce between not tuning and very heavy pixelation (huge RS Uncorrected errors). As far as I know, nothing changed in terms of the overall environment (although something could have happened with FIOS outside my house). I have a tech coming over tomorrow. Any advice on how to direct him? Thanks.


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## bivrak

sinanju said:


> For me, the issue affects 6 channels and is like an elderly relative -- it has good days and bad. When it's bad, some of those 6 channels are unwatchable for an entire day. More than once just this month I've had to reschedule recordings around a pixelation storm.


For the last few months, I've had good days and bad days with the same six channels as you. On the good days, the signal strength on those six channels approached 60%, while all other channels were at 100%. On the bad days, the signal strength would dip down to around 40%, while again, all the hundreds of other channels were at 100%.

The last couple of days all of the six low frequency channels have looked great. The TiVo diagnostic screen is now reporting 100% signal strength on those six channels, which I never saw before, even on the days when they looked fine on my TV.

I'm cautiously optimistic that Verizon finally figured out that THEY had a problem and have now fixed it.

Sinanju, are you seeing the same thing in Rhode Island I'm seeing in Maryland? I hope so.


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## Dmon4u

A while back someone mentioned that they could not find Variable Attenuators:

I found this one: http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/30-2118

On sale for $9.15 with source code # 9SC108


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## JJA

count me as another successful repair to the pixelation problem. FIOS tech came out Saturday (I placed the service call Friday afternoon) and installed -13 which brought my SNR to 31. Picture great over the weekend. He also left me an assortment in the event I had to make some changes.


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## NJRonbo

JJA,

What exactly did they install? Was it attenuators?


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## JJA

NJRonbo said:


> JJA,
> 
> What exactly did they install? Was it attenuators?


yes. a -10 and -3. ONe week and still no pixelation.


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## jazmaan

I'd been running Verizon FIOS TV without any issues for about six weeks. Then a few days ago my HD local network stations started pixellating like crazy. NBCHD, CBSHD, FOXHD and ABCHD were unwatchable with broad swashes of pixellation every few seconds. I scanned these forums and elsewhere and tried turning off my Moca Router and I tried the reverse diplexer trick with no success.

Then, in digging through my box of old electronic gadgets I stumbled upon an old Radio Shack "High Gain Cable TV Signal Amplifier with Adjustable Gain Control". I remembered that someone else had reported success with a discontinued Radio Shack variable attenuator. I wasn't sure my adjustable "Signal Amplifier" was the same thing. In fact I thought it was probably the exact opposite of what I needed, but out of desperation I gave it a try. At first it didn't help much. I tried turning the gain all the way down but it was still pixellating, although I thought I did see some very slight improvement.

I was at the end of my rope. But as I contemplated my next move (a call to Verizon), a miracle happened. After about 5 minutes the pixellation completely disappeared! As I type this I've been watching for three hours without even a hint of pixellation on any channel! Hallelujah! The only down side is that the Radio Shack gadget needs to remain plugged in to the wall.


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## BobCamp1

exdishguy said:


> Actually, the Tivo's have AGCs - I could not believe this when one of their 1st level support guys told me this. Sure enough, a L2 tech told me that they do in fact have AGCs.


Well, there are good AGCs and not-so-good AGCs. They obviously don't work well enough for some Verizon installations.

Since this problem isn't as wide-spread for other cable companies, Verizon probably isn't helping.


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## jazmaan

Even though my Radio Shack variable gain amplifier fix was working, I decided to call Verizon. They sent out a tech within 1 hour! I had to insist that he put an attenuator on the line. He was giving me all sorts of rationale for why an attenuator wouldn't work. But as soon as he put the attenuator on (-6db) the pixellation cleared up completely. He was astounded. "I guess I just learned something!" he said. He left me with a couple of extra attenuators of different strengths. Now everything is working fine.


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## exdishguy

jazmaan said:


> Even though my Radio Shack variable gain amplifier fix was working, I decided to call Verizon. They sent out a tech within 1 hour! I had to insist that he put an attenuator on the line. He was giving me all sorts of rationale for why an attenuator wouldn't work. But as soon as he put the attenuator on (-6db) the pixellation cleared up completely. He was astounded. "I guess I just learned something!" he said. He left me with a couple of extra attenuators of different strengths. Now everything is working fine.


I hope you have better luck than I did. My variable attenuators worked for a few days and then returned. I suspect the Verizon signal drifted some how....but who knows. I'm just sick of the whole thing. If Verizon cannot fix my service soon I'll keep TWC for now. But with TWC's neo-nazi limitations on fair-use that cripples MRV for all channels but my locals, I may just give up on Tivo altogether and use the stupid Motorola DVRs. Or maybe I'll wait for DirecTV to ship a new DirecTivo? 

Check back in a few days if you don't mind and let us know if the attenuator is still working for you.


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## jazmaan

exdishguy said:


> I hope you have better luck than I did. My variable attenuators worked for a few days and then returned. I suspect the Verizon signal drifted some how....but who knows. I'm just sick of the whole thing. If Verizon cannot fix my service soon I'll keep TWC for now. But with TWC's neo-nazi limitations on fair-use that cripples MRV for all channels but my locals, I may just give up on Tivo altogether and use the stupid Motorola DVRs. Or maybe I'll wait for DirecTV to ship a new DirecTivo?
> 
> Check back in a few days if you don't mind and let us know if the attenuator is still working for you.


I had a slight relapse and had to add one more -6db attenuator. Been pixellation free since then.


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## NYHeel

I've noticed some minor pixellation on ESPN HD 570. I put in a -6db attenuator but that didn't really do anything. I was at a 38 SNR and the -6db attenuator lowered me to 37. Is that normal? Also, does Home Depot sell these things? Anyone locally?


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## bkdtv

NYHeel said:


> I've noticed some minor pixellation on ESPN HD 570. I put in a -6db attenuator but that didn't really do anything. I was at a 38 SNR and the -6db attenuator lowered me to 37. Is that normal? Also, does Home Depot sell these things? Anyone locally?


Most people need closer to 10-12dB, I think. I have one the earliest Motorola ONTs which output a very "hot signal" -- I require 16-18dB attenuation.

Verizon FiOS installers have them, and you can order them online from Smarthome.com, but I'm not aware of any nationwide retailers that carry them.


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## NYHeel

bkdtv said:


> Most people need closer to 10-12dB, I think. I have one the earliest Motorola ONTs which output a very "hot signal" -- I require 16-18dB attenuation.
> 
> Verizon FiOS installers have them, and you can order them online from Smarthome.com, but I'm not aware of any nationwide retailers that carry them.


I've got an old ONT as well although I do have a 6 line splitter on the line. I guess I'll just order from smarthome.com.


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## subgenius37

So I post a while ago about my experiences with attenuating to SNR 31/32, then finally using a low pass filter to remove most of the pixellation and I took off the attenuation because I thought it made the signal worse. I also mentioned that I had a multi-streaming cable card (only 1 card required for each box). Then I posted a follow up saying that I still had pixellation problems sporadically. After 2 more tech visits and 1 call trying to get them to fix the signal at the source. I ended up figuring out a fix that seems to be working 99% of the time. 

So with the multi-streaming cards you need 14 DB down and specifically 2 3DB down attenuators and 1 8 DB down attenuator. For whatever reason if you use a a 6DB and an 8DB or any other combo the attenuation changes based on channel. Sadly I can't explain it, and neither could the tech I described it to when I was looking for help. Now when I get pixellation it will be 1 or 2 little blips at most during a show that used to get wrecked with it. 

Hopefully this help others out there. I would have switched back off the multi-streaming cards but they were going to charge me a service fee to put in the new single streaming cards AND twice as much per month. So there you go. 

- subG


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## richsadams

subgenius37 said:


> So I post a while ago about my experiences with attenuating to SNR 31/32, then finally using a low pass filter to remove most of the pixellation and I took off the attenuation because I thought it made the signal worse. <snip>


Nice follow-up and good info. Thanks! :up:


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## fahooper

NYHeel said:


> I was at a 38 SNR and the -6db attenuator lowered me to 37. Is that normal?


I was at 37/38 SNR. When I put in a -20db attenuator my SNR went to 31/32. Haven't seen any problems since (4 days).


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## panksdmz

subgenius37 said:


> So I post a while ago about my experiences with attenuating to SNR 31/32, then finally using a low pass filter to remove most of the pixellation and I took off the attenuation because I thought it made the signal worse. - subG


got my FIOS video installed yesterday. One of the Tech was a Tivo user himself and was aware of the issue with the "hot signal" from ONT. He confirmed that a low-pass filter works better the the attenuators and asked me to try that before using the attenuators.

He also told me that the problem is worse with the Morotola ONT's (i have a really old 610 series) and according to him the problem in pixelation was because of the signals coming from the router into the coax cable (i have my coax also feeding the new Actiontec router).

Not sure how much of this is already known information.. wanted to share what i learnt.

I'm not having any pixelation problems.... yet. Am at SNR 36. 

This thread was really useful :up:


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## sinanju

panksdmz said:


> He confirmed that a low-pass filter works better the the attenuators and asked me to try that before using the attenuators.


The filter doesn't work better than the attenuators... they fix two different problems.


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## cpettis

I just went through the hassle of troubleshooting this issue, and thought I would share my solutions. Verizon came out to install the cable card in my second TIVO HD, and put 16 db of attenuators on both systems based on levels he read with a power meter. I had been running my TIVO HD in the living room with no attenuation and very rare pixelation. After the attenuators were installed, I noticed some channels with low power readings on both systems. I removed an attenuator on the new TIVO and all channels I checked were at 97&#37; minimum, with most at 100%. SNR was between 36 and 38 db. My older system had issues with RC errors with no attenuators and low or no signal with an 8db attenuator installed. The only difference between the 2 systems installation was the new one was connected to the FIOS splitter with 100% quad shield RG6, while the older system had a 6 ft piece of RG58 in the line. I replaced the RG58 with RG6 quad shield and all the channels were pegged at 100%, but there were some RC errors on the problem channels. I added an 8 db attenuator and all channels were greater than 97%, with SNR's of 35 to 38 db and so far no RC errors. Based on past experience as an RF calibration technician, I think the RG58 cable, which dates back to the original cable installation, had a frequency response issue, but I don't have the equipment at home to prove this. I do think that Verizon's channel to channel power levels have some issues, but checking the complete signal pathway from the FIOS box to the TIVO can also help. I'm going to continue to monitor the DVR diagnostics when I see any pixelation issues, but for now it looks like I've solved my problems.


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## modular46

What's weird about my issues is that I only experience pixalation on Channel 256 Noggin and it's 603,000 K frequency. My s/n is about 34-35 db, and it only comes and goes. I have 14 db of attentuation on it (an 8 and a 6) and I don't notice any s/n drop until I reach about 20 db and it starts messing up other channels. I'm using a PDI 3 way splitter too. I"m not sure what ONT I have it only says Verizon on the white outter plastic case.

The Tivo 3 that has this problem isn't used for HD only SD for my 2 year old. I just feel bad because I record all her shows and 50% of the time it's pixelated.

I also have a TIVO HD unit that experiences the same issues, and has no pixilation on any of the HD channels that I watch. Only on 603 frequency.

I'm using 2 single M cards on both receivers.

Any suggestions?


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## aldiesel

I am having problems only on local HD and sub-channels (upper 400's and low 500's) in Phila VHO. I have attenuated with 18 db (two 6 db's and two 3 db's). I have also used a low pass filter as suggested elsewhere. My SNR on all of those channels fluctuates between 30 and 32. Most times it locks in at 31. Yet I still get thousands of uncorrected errors. Should I try a different combination of attenuators?


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## Joe01880

aldiesel said:


> Should I try a different combination of attenuators?


Attenuate to zero uncorrected errors or as close to it as you can get without loosing picture. Thats what i have done using FiOS and have no ploblems. I use 1- 12 and 1- 8 for a total of -20db attenuation. the SNR is between 29 and 31 depending on the channel. Signal strenth is between 45 and 60 depending on the channel.


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## fahooper

fahooper said:


> I was at 37/38 SNR. When I put in a -20db attenuator my SNR went to 31/32. Haven't seen any problems since (4 days).


Saw minor quick pixellation after this change. Changed to -22db attenuation with SNR of 30 and signal strength of 50-60. In two weeks no pixellation.


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## GmanTiVo

So which Attenuator(s) are the best or prefferred by folks here?

I ask because I myself just recently am incurring pixelation & freezes with FIOS, after almost 2 years of trouble free viewing and there seem ti be many different brands & types on ebay to chose from.

Thanks in advance,

Gman


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## sinanju

GmanTiVo said:


> So which Attenuator(s) are the best or prefferred by folks here?


The pile of free ones left by the FiOS technician are my favorite.


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## microbubba

Have Cox Cable.

Pixellation started last year. No amount of attenuation fixes it.

SNR bounces between 32 & 39, Signal strength bounces 95-100.
RS Corrected / Uncorrected ALWAYS remain at 0. Zip-Zero-Nada.

Is it a signal issue?


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## sinanju

microbubba said:


> Is it a signal issue?


You answered your own question:



microbubba said:


> RS Corrected / Uncorrected ALWAYS remain at 0.


If it was a signal issue causing pixelation, you'd see a climbing uncorrected value. Keep in mind that the number is only valid for live TV -- it is not preserved for a recording -- and it is reset whenever you change the channel or a recording starts or stops.


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## webin

GmanTiVo said:


> So which Attenuator(s) are the best or prefferred by folks here?


Most people are getting the variety pack from SmartHome (do a forum search for the link). This pack includes 2 attenuators at each of about 5 different values, so there's plenty of combinations you can put together to find the perfect amount for you. Others have purchased a variable attenuator to "dial" it in, but I have no info on those (search might).


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## microbubba

sinanju said:


> You answered your own question:
> 
> If it was a signal issue causing pixelation, you'd see a climbing uncorrected value. Keep in mind that the number is only valid for live TV -- it is not preserved for a recording -- and it is reset whenever you change the channel or a recording starts or stops.


More: It only happens on HD content channels. Especially is both tuners are on HD.

We have the DVR Expander (Officially Tivo Supported) but live TV and recordings that are HD will pixellate until it seizes. Recording "Red Light" continues but program is cut off (partial)

SD recordings are 100% fine and if we only stay in _SD world_ then Tivo operates like I expect it to. Some would say that HDD & Expander are suspect, but all Season Passes/ LiveTV are 100% fine when recorded in SD.


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## richsadams

webin said:


> Most people are getting the variety pack from SmartHome (do a forum search for the link). This pack includes 2 attenuators at each of about 5 different values, so there's plenty of combinations you can put together to find the perfect amount for you. Others have purchased a variable attenuator to "dial" it in, but I have no info on those (search might).


Link to attenuators from Smart Home.

Mine came in the mail on Friday in prep for next Monday's install. (Yes I _was_ in fact a Boy Scout, what about it?  )

Webin...are you using any at the moment?


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## sinanju

microbubba said:


> SD recordings are 100% fine and if we only stay in _SD world_ then Tivo operates like I expect it to. Some would say that HDD & Expander are suspect, but all Season Passes/ LiveTV are 100% fine when recorded in SD.


SD is ~25% of the disk activity of HD. One way to eliminate the disks as a theory would be to test them. Head here:

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/308

Try the procedures under *Check the TiVo DVR and DVR Expander hard drives*


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## webin

richsadams said:


> Webin...are you using any at the moment?


Yah, I'm still using 6db. I haven't touched it in months. Don't try to fix what isn't broken and all that. I haven't seen a lick of pixellation in quite a while, so I either have a perfect amount of attenuation or too much. Without seeing any problems, I'm not all that motivated to see if I can improve it.


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## richsadams

webin said:


> Without seeing any problems, I'm not all that motivated to see if I can improve it.


That makes perfect sense. I'll post what I see next week. Hopefully I'll have nothing to report, no PQ issues, no attenuation...it'll all be perfect! Well, I can dream can't I?


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## GmanTiVo

sinanju said:


> SD is ~25% of the disk activity of HD. One way to eliminate the disks as a theory would be to test them. Head here:
> 
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/308
> 
> Try the procedures under *Check the TiVo DVR and DVR Expander hard drives*


Thank you very much!

Gman


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## modular46

For those still struggling with your system I tried what Richsadmas recommended way back on page 1. I bought a Radioshack Adjustable Attenuator from EBAY for $10. It's part #15-678 I had 14 DB of attenuation of my sets (One 8, and one 6) and I was still getting pixelation from time to time. I was able to dial in a little more attenuation and I've been trouble free since. 

Stop trying different combinations of attenuators and pulling your hair out. This is the ultimate device as you can keep going down ever so slightly until your problems are resolved. I don't know why it took me so long to get this. I've had it on for over a week and not one pixelation issue. There are several people selling these on EBAY just search by RadioShack 15-678 attenuator. For $10 bucks you cant beat it.


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## richsadams

modular46 said:


> I bought a Radioshack Adjustable Attenuator from EBAY for $10. It's part #15-678 I had 14 DB of attenuation of my sets (One 8, and one 6) and I was still getting pixelation from time to time. I was able to dial in a little more attenuation and I've been trouble free since.


That's good to know...although I can't take credit for it...the idea came from another member (vfrjim) and I happened to have one and wanted to see if they were one in the same (and they were). Looks like this...










Here's one on e-bay...only $2.95!

Our FIOS install is tomorrow. I have a set of the Smart Home attenuators already, so I guess I'll dig out the RS attenuator as well. Fingers crossed I won't need any of them, but it's good to be prepared I guess. I'll report back!


----------



## DCIFRTHS

richsadams said:


> ... Our FIOS install is tomorrow. I have a set of the Smart Home attenuators already, so I guess I'll dig out the RS attenuator as well. Fingers crossed I won't need any of them, but it's good to be prepared I guess. I'll report back!


I'm looking forward to hearing how your install goes.

I started seeing pixelation tonight, six days after the FiOS install. It may be that I never tuned to affected channels before this evening.

Anyway, channel 411 at 729000KHz is unwatchable as it pixelates approximately every five seconds. Sound goes out too.

Signal Strength: 0-90 (constantly changing).
SNR: Fluctuates to as low as 8 and as high as 34.
RS Uncorrected: 2254396 (and climbing)
RS Corrected: 10954296 (and climbing) 
Time since tune start: 9173 seconds.
Time since tune start: 9173 seconds.

I do not have the Verizon Actiontec router. I am using Ethernet for the internet. The MoCA LED is not lit on the ONT, and the only devices hooked up to the coax cable are the three S3 boxes.

Does this sound like what others are experiencing? Anyone have any comments/ideas?

I have been reading this thread for a long time now (hours), and I am practically seeing double...

Edit: All three S3 boxes are showing the same pixelation.


----------



## FiosUser

I'm reporting back on my fix.

I first tried the attenuators, but eventually they didn't work.
Then, I got one of the diplexers from Home Depot and that did the trick! Uh, at least I thought it did. For months it worked. Then a few weeks ago I got the pixelation and sound dropping out on the MusicChoice channels and Discover HD. The horror...

So, I kept the diplexer on, and added a small attenuator (3 I think) and then also put a splitter on. 

I think this magical potion almost fixed it. Only the MusicChoice channel cuts out now and again, but Discovery is back.

Just to plug the diplexer though...that is what solved the problem for months, so I recommend trying one of those (remember to do it backward...in the out and out only through antenna)


----------



## Gregor

I've had mine with the attenuators (13) and diplexors as well. I see what I'll call pixellation "storms" from time to time, and dropouts as well.

During these the HD Moto box I have seems to be fine.


----------



## modular46

It's been a month and a half since I removed the attenuators in favor of the adjustable radio shack device. What's great about the RS device is that you can slowly decrease the attenuation and monitor the results. I was able to get 0 pixilation with the SNR down to 29-30 and the signal level about 45-48. What's weird is thaht I'm getting uncorrected errors still but they have dropped significantly and I see no picture issues what so ever. I've been picture clear for 3 full weeks. I've watched a varied to channel frequencies and the biggest problems I was getting was on VH1 classic and Noggin. I record a ton of shows for my daughter and I would get major hits and pixelation with 13 db of attenuators on a SNR of 33-34 and a signal of about 55.

What's really weird is that I tried more attenuators and it didn't improve the picture but adding the RS device really has worked. Like I mentioned, I see absolutely no picture issues now, and its been all good for 3 plus weeks.

I wanted to post this because I was really close to giving up the TIVO and going back to the POS Verizon boxes. For those that put attenuators on their lines, saw an improvement but still see issues from time to time try to find one of the Radio Shack boxes. 



Dave King


----------



## GmanTiVo

^^ Dave,

Can you kindly provide me the RS model # (or item name), I have been i 2 different stores and salesmen are unable to find it.

Thank you in advance

Gianmarco


----------



## richsadams

I think this is what Dave is referring to (although he may have a newer model)...










I believe it was Radio Shack part number 15-678 but I'm pretty sure they discontinued making it several years ago. I used to use the one I have to attenuate the red push on an old Mitsubishi rear projection TV I once had.

Maybe the picture will help, but I'm pretty sure they don't make them any more. Perhaps Dave has a source?

Best of luck and let us know how things go.


----------



## mae

GmanTiVo said:


> ^^ Dave,
> 
> Can you kindly provide me the RS model # (or item name), I have been i 2 different stores and salesmen are unable to find it.
> 
> Thank you in advance
> 
> Gianmarco


Here's a link to an $11.95 alternative I bought (but since I had it, didn't need it) . It looks about the same.

Mark

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/ANTENNAS-DIRECT-/30-2118


----------



## GmanTiVo

^^ thank you 

I hear there is a possible software upgrade being beta tested that may indeed put to rest this issue but the amount of pixellation I'm having is varying day to day and adding/removing static attenuators is becoming old fast, a variable one will allow me to dail in the correct attenuation on a per need basis (per channel) 

Gman


----------



## ah30k

Variable attenuators are great as long as you can program your TiVo to reach out and dial it in every time it needs to record a show!

Seriously, this is getting on my nerves in a big way. The fact that I am getting serious pixelation on one of my more commonly watched HD channels amplifies the problem.

Something has to change; either my service provider or my DVR. TiVo and FIOS are clearly incompatible in my case. I am torn over which one should change!


----------



## NotVeryWitty

GmanTiVo said:


> I hear there is a possible software upgrade being beta tested that may indeed put to rest this issue


Where did you hear this -- I have avoided upgrading my S2DT and changing from Charter to Fios because of the pixelation issue, and would love it if this was true!


----------



## sinanju

NotVeryWitty said:


> Where did you hear this -- I have avoided upgrading my S2DT and changing from Charter to Fios because of the pixelation issue, and would love it if this was true!


If it's true, the only people who could verify it would be inside the beta or TiVo employees -- both of whom are bound by a non-disclosure agreements concerning such things.

The first rule of Beta Club is you do not talk about Beta Club...


----------



## richsadams

NotVeryWitty said:


> Where did you hear this -- I have avoided upgrading my S2DT and changing from Charter to Fios because of the pixelation issue, and would love it if this was true!


Trust us for now (or not).  If/when there is a fix word will get around very quickly and you can upgrade to HD. Mind you...you will never be able to go back.


----------



## Thos19

Indeed, no talking about Fight Club ! 

Thos.


----------



## NotVeryWitty

richsadams said:


> Trust us for now (or not).


In Rich I trust.


----------



## richsadams

NotVeryWitty said:


> In Rich I trust.


Be afraid...be very afraid.


----------



## Ziggy86

richsadams said:


> Be afraid...be very afraid.


Rich,

So you have FIos and Tivo now.

Are you happy you switched? Any pixellation issues?


----------



## GmanTiVo

sinanju said:


> If it's true, the only people who could verify it would be inside the beta or TiVo employees -- both of whom are bound by a non-disclosure agreements concerning such things.
> 
> *The first rule of Beta Club is you do not talk about Beta Club...*


What Beta Club? I know nuthin' 'bout Beta Club. Forgeddabout it, no such thing as Beta Club 

disclaimer.... I am in no way affiliated with Beta Club, Tivo and or its affiliates.... damn, don't want my kneecaps popped


----------



## GmanTiVo

richsadams said:


> Trust us for now (or not).  If/when there is a fix word will get around very quickly and you can upgrade to HD. Mind you...you will never be able to go back.


..... After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill -- the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the upgrade fix -- you stay in Wonderland and I show you how good the Tivo-FIOS goes."


----------



## modular46

GmanTiVo said:


> ^^ Dave,
> 
> Can you kindly provide me the RS model # (or item name), I have been i 2 different stores and salesmen are unable to find it.
> 
> Thank you in advance
> 
> Gianmarco


The one I have is 15-678, you can't get it at radio shack anymore you have to get it from EBAY.

I'm still free of any pixilation. I set it and forget it about it now. It doesn't have to be adjusted after it's dialed in.


----------



## modular46

ah30k said:


> Variable attenuators are great as long as you can program your TiVo to reach out and dial it in every time it needs to record a show!
> 
> !


What are you talking about? Once the attenuator is set its set, no adjustments are needed.


----------



## ah30k

I thought different channels needed different attenuation?


----------



## Deanq4

What really gets me is that for the longest time I was ok, TNTHD went out and is horrible now. i got one of the RS units but it only helps a little. Really getting annoying.

If Verizon gets bad when they switch owners, I am gone.


----------



## modular46

ah30k said:


> I thought different channels needed different attenuation?


The FIOS signal is so strong that in some frequency ranges you need to attenuate the signal. I have found that tuning to the worst channel works well as it doesn't affect the other channels.


----------



## modular46

Deanq4 said:


> What really gets me is that for the longest time I was ok, TNTHD went out and is horrible now. i got one of the RS units but it only helps a little. Really getting annoying.
> 
> If Verizon gets bad when they switch owners, I am gone.


Have you monitored the data from the channel? What is the SNR for the channel? What are the uncorrected errors you are seeing after keeping the channel on the tuner for at least 6 hours?

From my experience I found that the RS unit needs to be almost fully clockwise. You need to get a baseline, monitor the data, and then keep slightly adjusting the attenuation in steps. You need to make a change, record the data, and then monitor the channel. If you still still pixelation keep adding more attenuation.

I didn't see much improvement instantly but I did it in baby steps to see what my worst channels needed. You just can't adjust the dial and watch the pixelations, you need to do like I mention, you should see an improvemment. I do not see any pixelation on any channel on 2 different Tivo receivers. One is a Series 3 HD, and the other is the giant HD hard drive unit.


----------



## blacksnakeball

I am one of those unfortunate FIOS hot signal guys. My new Tivo HD XL just doesn't seem to like the FIOS signal. I have been on this board and the Tivo forum and got some great advice on numerous occasions from bfdtv and others. I have tried a low pass filter and many different combinations of attenuators. I have tried the Radio Shack dial attenuator. But my signal issues have gotten worse over the past month.

I want to love Tivo. I was an early adopter with Replay TV and would still own that box if it could record HD. I spent years with a SA 8300 HD Explorer with Time Warner Cable in Manhattan but I could not pass up the speed and price of FIOS and hate TWC anyway. I started with the crappy Motos from Verizon and had overheating issues and hard drive failure within 2 weeks on my first box. I did some research here and fell in love with Tivo and bought the XL on April 25th.

From day one I have tried the signal fix and I have spent quite a bit of time with VZ at my home (they ave been pretty good about trying to fix on their end) I have also let Tivo know since day one that I am experiencing signal issues.

I met a guy on the Tivo boards who told me he was in a beta program and that a patch was imminent but could not tell me anymore. He said dont waste time with VZ coming to your apartment with any more attenuator crap- there will be a patch.

Based on that info and the totally random nature of my signal issues I have decided to try and wait it out as long as I can before my wife and daughter turn on me. The signal seems to go hot whenever we switch to a channel that is important to us. For me it is SNY in NYC -the Mets channel. I cannot watch a game anymore! My wife has issues with HBO and my daughter's kiddie shows seem to have to problem too. Sometimes the pixellation will be heavy for 10 minutes and then dissipate. Other times I can get a week straight of rock solid picture but lately it has been consistently bad. When it is bad the SNR fluctuates from 37-29 and the signal strength goes from 100-45. The RS uncorrected have been appearing more and more on channels we did not see them on before.

A few weeks into my trial month I called to complain to Tivo and they waived my monthly charge. A few weeks into my second month I called to complain but had to take it up to the next level of CS to get them to give me another month credit. I actually agreed to cancel my service because i was so upset with them. It is set to expire in 3 days.

Still I delay any decisions because I want to believe this can be fixed. I decided I had 3 options. Do nothing and hope that the beta fix comes in soon (yes i have registered for the beta and have begged Tivo to bring me in but their CS people are clueless) Secondly, I though maybe a new cable card from VZ might solve my problems and third I thought perhaps a new box from Tivo might work. Obviously there are people with Tivo and FIOS who are enjoying cable TV - I want to be THAT guy. Anyone think a new card or box might do the trick?

If I can't solve this problem soon I want to return the unit and get my MONEY back. I called J&R Music World where I purchased the box in April and they said any return after 30 days must go through manufacturer. I called Tivo today to find out their return and/or replacement policy and got into a huge pissing match. Basically there L2 tech support rep told me that since it is over 30 days I cannot return the box under any circumstances!!! He says it is a FIOS problem and I waited more than 30 days! He says that since by canceling my monthly service a few weeks ago that somehow this precludes me from pursuing a return or replacement. He says I cannot even get a refurb at cost to me. WTF???

I know I am getting bad info and I am livid. I would consider swapping out the box but I do not want a refurb and do not want to pay anything for shipping. The Tivo L2 guy says I cannot swap or even make a return because there is nothing wrong with the box and it is past 30 days. I asked him how he did not know it was a hard drive issue and even though all signs point to signal problem how can they rule out hardware issues. He said it did not matter I am stuck with this 2 month old box and can only sell it on ebay!

Of course now I just want to return this box and recoup my $5oo+ that I shelled out for it in April. Perhaps I will wait tilll there is a FIOS fix or perhaps I will never buy a Tivo again!

But how would any of you proceed? Are there some corporate people at Tivo that will listen to reason? I went from being a Tivo evangelical to a Tivo hater in one 20 minute phone call.

They have a known issue and yet do not inform consumers that they might experience signal issue with a major provider of HD content? I got the sense that they also know they have problems in Manhattan but of course cannot prove it. What about my 90 day warranty? All I know is the box doesn't work with my cable provider.

Thoughts? Sorry to ramble on but I am spitting blood


----------



## TiVoJerry

Not all FIOS customers experience the same level of pixelation. That said, we have been testing a fix for some time that has provided extremely significant improvement for all testers. The SW release carrying this is coming very soon.


----------



## rocko

TiVoJerry said:


> Not all FIOS customers experience the same level of pixelation. That said, we have been testing a fix for some time that has provided extremely significant improvement for all testers. The SW release carrying this is coming very soon.


That's good news for a lot of us. Without betraying your grillmaster oath, is this something that would get rolled into a general release or would it need to be specially requested/deployed?

Thanks again for your continued support, Jerry.


----------



## mae

TiVoJerry said:


> Not all FIOS customers experience the same level of pixelation. That said, we have been testing a fix for some time that has provided extremely significant improvement for all testers. The SW release carrying this is coming very soon.


Jerry,

Has this been tested on systems that are on FIOS _but don't have any issues_?

I'd hate for this to break what has been working perfectly since my install.

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## TiVoJerry

webin said:


> Since Jerry seems to be breaking the code of silence a bit...
> 
> Yes, it's been tested on "working perfectly" FiOS systems.


Please keep in mind that just because I make a statement as a representative of the company, it does not mean that allows anyone to break their NDA, even after the update is rolled to the public.


----------



## dmeleedy

I am completely at wits end. If there is a way to beta fix this test,
then please sign me up!

I have tried every attenuator I can get my hands on. Added a diplexer.
I have patiently tried to minimize the pixelation, and nothing works.
I can't wait for this fix!!

I've been a tivo user from very near the beginning, and don't want to give it up...


----------



## sinanju

dmeleedy said:


> I am completely at wits end. If there is a way to beta fix this test,
> then please sign me up!
> 
> I have tried every attenuator I can get my hands on. Added a diplexer.
> I have patiently tried to minimize the pixelation, and nothing works.
> I can't wait for this fix!!
> 
> I've been a tivo user from very near the beginning, and don't want to give it up...


You can volunteer for beta testing at fieldtrials.tivo.com


----------



## dmeleedy

sinanju said:


> You can volunteer for beta testing at fieldtrials.tivo.com


That site appeared to only have a login box, with no way to create
an account.


----------



## bkdtv

dmeleedy said:


> That site appeared to only have a login box, with no way to create
> an account.


Use *this link* from the _Using TiVo_ FAQ in my signature.

Use the same account name on that site that you do here, so TiVo can recognize you.


----------



## innocentfreak

I have tried several emails but no luck here. I never get the confirmation email. I know I used to be signed up under my old series 2 but this screen name doesn't work and I no longer have that old email address.


----------



## TiVoJerry

We just started rolling 11.0d to a random set of HD DVRs in the field last night. The main intent of this SW is to reduce pixelation for FiOS customers. Results have been extremely favorable. The changes made may even improve video quality with other providers as well.

This begins the CS Ramp evaluation of the SW and what's effect on our call centers might be. I review all cases logged against these units for a couple of weeks before we deem it acceptible to send to all HD DVRs. Barring any unforeseen need to hold it back, it goes out to the entire population very quickly, so there is no need to for a priority list.

Please refrain from PMing me asking to receive the SW sooner. My inbox (and my "plate" in general) is already getting pretty full and I doubt I could handle the volume. Try to be patient just a little longer. 

Thank you.


----------



## richsadams

Excellent to hear Jerry and thanks very much for taking the time to keep us posted...I know it's not part of your job description! :up:

BTW, both of our TiVo's are doing very well since we switched to FIOS about a month and a half ago but I can understand the frustration and hope this addresses the issues others are having.


----------



## alleyooptroop

thank goodness someone on the verizon boards posted a link to this discussion. looks like i'm not the only one. here's what i had posted:

_- 52" Sony xbr9 lcd hdtv (about a month old)
- TiVo HD dvr (about 3 weeks old)
- verizon fios HD service
- all connected via hdmi from monoprice

so I can't help but notice pixelation when there's a fast moving scene like a quick panning of the camera. I especially notice it when there's quick contrast in light like in an explosion. Slower moving movies look gorgeous - sweeny Todd for example looked awesome. I tried watching speed racer the other night. With all the quick movement it looked terrible. I've read that it could be more a product of the signal from verizon. The compression causes it? I just want to be sure that that's the reason and not anything else. Thanks in advance for any replies._

so i've read through a lot of this thread and i think i'll try adjusting the attenuation. the fios installer DID install an attenuator (not sure of the strength) when he came to install the cable card but i still have to check all the diagnostics to find out the signal strength (i found this thread while i was at work). i am really curious about this software upgrade though. can i call tivo and have them send it to me?


----------



## richsadams

alleyooptroop said:


> thank goodness someone on the verizon boards posted a link to this discussion. looks like i'm not the only one. here's what i had posted:
> 
> _- 52" Sony xbr9 lcd hdtv (about a month old)
> - TiVo HD dvr (about 3 weeks old)
> - verizon fios HD service
> - all connected via hdmi from monoprice
> 
> so I can't help but notice pixelation when there's a fast moving scene like a quick panning of the camera. I especially notice it when there's quick contrast in light like in an explosion. Slower moving movies look gorgeous - sweeny Todd for example looked awesome. I tried watching speed racer the other night. With all the quick movement it looked terrible. I've read that it could be more a product of the signal from verizon. The compression causes it? I just want to be sure that that's the reason and not anything else. Thanks in advance for any replies._
> 
> so i've read through a lot of this thread and i think i'll try adjusting the attenuation. the fios installer DID install an attenuator (not sure of the strength) when he came to install the cable card but i still have to check all the diagnostics to find out the signal strength (i found this thread while i was at work). i am really curious about this software upgrade though. can i call tivo and have them send it to me?


My understanding is that VZ does not compress their signals (hence the reason for the superior PQ).

Not sure if attenuation or the update will cure what you're seeing, but don't bother calling TiVo. The CSR's will either have no idea what you're talking about or will simply say no. In addition, although it's not confidential, the less some levels of support are made aware that we have "inside info" the better. Per Jerry's note the update will be pushed out in a couple of weeks. Once it's released into the wild it happens very quickly.

You can take comfort in knowing that historically TiVo has been able to address any issues that have arisen. Ideally this will be one more they will conquer.

BTW, welcome to the forum!


----------



## alleyooptroop

richsadams said:


> Not sure if attenuation or the update will cure what you're seeing,


just to reiterate, my pixelation isn't horrible but it is quite noticeable on fast moving scenes. i have noticed that occasionally discovery hd gets really pixelated. i guess it will be a wait and see situation. i haven't had a chance to run the diagnostic yet since i just found this forum today but it looks like some people here have had luck with the attenuators. i wish the variable attenuator was available at a store near me so i could give it a try (anyone know where i could get one on the west side of LA?). i'm really curious about the sw update.


----------



## rifleman69

TiVoJerry said:


> We just started rolling 11.0d to a random set of HD DVRs in the field last night. The main intent of this SW is to reduce pixelation for FiOS customers. Results have been extremely favorable. The changes made may even improve video quality with other providers as well.
> 
> This begins the CS Ramp evaluation of the SW and what's effect on our call centers might be. I review all cases logged against these units for a couple of weeks before we deem it acceptible to send to all HD DVRs. Barring any unforeseen need to hold it back, it goes out to the entire population very quickly, so there is no need to for a priority list.
> 
> Please refrain from PMing me asking to receive the SW sooner. My inbox (and my "plate" in general) is already getting pretty full and I doubt I could handle the volume. Try to be patient just a little longer.
> 
> Thank you.


Awesome news Jerry, TiVo listened to their customers.


----------



## wmcbrine

alleyooptroop, the problem you're describing is really not what this thread is about. The "Fios pixellation problem" is due to errors that can occur at any time. Macroblocking during fast action is not a matter of errors, but simply of inadequate bandwidth for the number of transitions that the MPEG encoder needs to represent in a given time. It's a normal and inescapable aspect of digital TV, and is not particular to Fios -- in fact, you should see less of it on Fios than on most services.

I'm guessing this is your first time with digital TV? If so... you get used to it. I noticed macroblocking a lot when I first started with digital TV, but I soon stopped seeing it, except in extreme cases. I think it's worth it for all the analog artifacts that don't exist anymore in the digital realm -- ghosts, snow, etc. -- but it's a trade-off.

You may be able to reduce the apparent effects by adjusting your display -- in particular, if you have a sharpness setting, turn it down (probably all the way).


----------



## alleyooptroop

thanks for chimimg in. that's kind of what i thought at first but i can't remember the pixelation being as noticeable when i had the verizon stb. plus, discovery hd and biography hd (just remembered) are having severe pixelation occasionally. i guess i won't know for sure until i can run the diagnostic when i get home.

is macroblocking unique to lcd tv's? or does it happen with plasma as well?



wmcbrine said:


> alleyooptroop, the problem you're describing is really not what this thread is about. The "Fios pixellation problem" is due to errors that can occur at any time. Macroblocking during fast action is not a matter of errors, but simply of inadequate bandwidth for the number of transitions that the MPEG encoder needs to represent in a given time. It's a normal and inescapable aspect of digital TV, and is not particular to Fios -- in fact, you should see less of it on Fios than on most services.
> 
> I'm guessing this is your first time with digital TV? If so... you get used to it. I noticed macroblocking a lot when I first started with digital TV, but I soon stopped seeing it, except in extreme cases. I think it's worth it for all the analog artifacts that don't exist anymore in the digital realm -- ghosts, snow, etc. -- but it's a trade-off.
> 
> You may be able to reduce the apparent effects by adjusting your display -- in particular, if you have a sharpness setting, turn it down (probably all the way).


----------



## GmanTiVo

:up:
Well I may be one of the lucky ones....  my kids said to me last night there was a Tivo message about updated software..... I am on the road so cannot verify until tomorrow, keeping fingers crossed 

Gman


----------



## wmcbrine

alleyooptroop said:


> is macroblocking unique to lcd tv's? or does it happen with plasma as well?


It has nothing to do with the display, except insofar as the display is of high enough quality to reveal it, or is adjusted to artificially enhance edges (aka "sharpness"). With a 52" HDTV display, you're going to see flaws of all kinds more clearly than with a smaller and/or SD set.


----------



## richsadams

GmanTiVo said:


> :up:
> Well I may be one of the lucky ones....  my kids said to me last night there was a Tivo message about updated software


Odd. It would be very unusual if there were a message. (Might have been a channel lineup change?) Only full/seasonal updates with new features, etc. generally carry a "public" message. Historically minor updates and patches (which this would be) have never included a message AFAIK. Usually the only way to tell if you've received a minor update (say from v11.0c to v11.0d) is by checking the software version on the system info screen. It will be interesting to know if you're one of the (hopefully) lucky ones..._and_ if this update actually has a notification message.


----------



## bicker

I dunno about that. There was one software update that I got the message three or four times for. (I assume I was one of the guinea pigs for that one.)


----------



## richsadams

bicker said:


> I dunno about that. There was one software update that I got the message three or four times for. (I assume I was one of the guinea pigs for that one.)


Interesting. I can't recall if our TiVo's have been in the two-week test phase or not but the only messages I've seen are for the major updates. Although I don't recall anyone ever saying anything about it, perhaps they push a message to the test folks to make them aware of a change so that if they see issues they'll be sure to mention it if they call in?


----------



## ah30k

Damn, just ran down to check and I am still at .c. Hopefully this will roll out quickly. TiVo, please consider this is more than just a new feature roll-out, it is a hopeful fix to a problem that totally ruins the viewer experience.


----------



## bicker

richsadams said:


> Interesting.


For all I know, all they were testing is whether the message was getting sent okay!


----------



## almahix

I wish I knew this was happening. I just paid a lot of money to exchange 2 older HD units because the attenuation helped but did not resolve the FIOS pixelation issues.

Recently I bought a third HD and with the attenuation it is rock steady. The two older ones were swapped ($159.00 each + return shipping) and one of the two replacements is even older than the ones I returned and still has frequent problems. The other one was slightly newer and seems to be doing better than the original.

Tivo denies that any design or manufacturing change has ocurred, but I have reliable examples to indicate that the newer units of the same product have fewer problems with pixelation.

I am making the assumption that the relative age is determined by the last two quartets of the service numbers and the MAC ids. This has been my experience with regard to those numbers. My two original HDs were 803E-xxxx, the third is 8063-xxxx, the replacements are 803A-xxxx and 804C-xxxx.


----------



## alleyooptroop

considering that it's sony's top of the line lcd i could see how it would reveal those flaws. i'm def going to check the sharpness level though. hopefully that helps.



wmcbrine said:


> It has nothing to do with the display, except insofar as the display is of high enough quality to reveal it, or is adjusted to artificially enhance edges (aka "sharpness"). With a 52" HDTV display, you're going to see flaws of all kinds more clearly than with a smaller and/or SD set.


----------



## RoyK

I got d last night too. I don't have FIOS so can't speak to whether there are improvements there but *I can testify that the gray screen on analog channels problem that version c fixed for me is back in spades.* I had two programs fail to record this afternoon because of the problem so once again i can't rely on my TiVo HD to record what I ask it to.


----------



## RoyK

DCIFRTHS said:


> Maybe you should PM Jerry on that issue?


I did.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

TiVoJerry said:


> We just started rolling 11.0d to a random set of HD DVRs in the field last night. The main intent of this SW is to reduce pixelation for FiOS customers. Results have been extremely favorable. The changes made may even improve video quality with other providers as well.


I'm glad that TiVo is addressing the problem. *However,* this thread is 19 months old. *Why, oh why* has it taken you so long to respond?

Seriously. TiVo can't hope to stay in business for the long term with that sort of "ignorance is bliss" attitude. To me, basic functionality is much more important than ads from Dominos Pizza, or Netflix streaming, or fancy search, or ... just about anything else!


----------



## DCIFRTHS

RoyK said:


> I did.


Cool :up:


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I'm glad that TiVo is addressing the problem. *However,* this thread is 19 months old. *Why, oh why* has it taken you so long to respond?


I was wondering the same thing. So much time passed I assumed it was a hardware thing and they couldn't do much about it (sorta like the S3 being gimped on M-cards). But alas, a software fix after all this time. Very happy to hear it, but why now and why so long?


----------



## sinanju

alleyooptroop said:


> thanks for chimimg in. that's kind of what i thought at first but i can't remember the pixelation being as noticeable when i had the verizon stb. plus, discovery hd and biography hd (just remembered) are having severe pixelation occasionally. i guess i won't know for sure until i can run the diagnostic when i get home.
> 
> is macroblocking unique to lcd tv's? or does it happen with plasma as well?


I recorded Speed Racer during the free HBO weekend and it did look like crap. It had every ingredient for a bad translation to HD: Lots of contrast, lots of sharp edges between primary colors, and lots of action. But, perhaps the truly fatal flaw was a terrible box office that left little money or interest in a really high-quality encoding -- though, that's speculation, of course.


----------



## alleyooptroop

So I was able to check the diagnostics. I put it on foodnetwork HD where I get the pixelation only on fast moving scenes. Here's what I get:

signal strength: 50 - 100
snr: 30 - 34
RS uncorrected: 1410000 and climbing
RS corrected: 11380000 and climbing

could someone dicipher for me? Should I attempt some attenuation adjustments? 

Do they sell attenuators at radio shack?


----------



## bkdtv

alleyooptroop said:


> So I was able to check the diagnostics. I put it on foodnetwork HD where I get the pixelation only on fast moving scenes. Here's what I get:
> 
> signal strength: 50 - 100
> snr: 30 - 34
> RS uncorrected: 1410000 and climbing
> RS corrected: 11380000 and climbing
> 
> could someone dicipher for me? Should I attempt some attenuation adjustments?
> 
> Do they sell attenuators at radio shack?


Some of what you are seeing during movement could be compression artifacts. That said, *RS Uncorrected* errors also cause pixelization and audio dropouts when they increment by the millions. Most are able to address this with attenuation, although it sounds like that may no longer be necessary with this upcoming 11.0d software discussed in the posts above.

If you don't want to wait for the 11.0d software to arrive, you can order one of each attenuator for a total of $8.19 from MCM Electronics.


----------



## modular46

TiVoJerry said:


> We just started rolling 11.0d to a random set of HD DVRs in the field last night. The main intent of this SW is to reduce pixelation for FiOS customers. Results have been extremely favorable. The changes made may even improve video quality with other providers as well.
> 
> Thank you.


Jerry

When we get 11.0d do you suggest removing all attenuators or keeping them where they give us the best signal overall?

Thanks again for posting your information on this forum. You didn't have to do this but you offering information that many on here really needed.

Thanks

Dave King


----------



## ciucca

Can people who have the 11.0d software and FIOS post any observations concerning the pixelation issue? This would be most helpful.

Thanks.


----------



## SeanC

modular46 said:


> When we get 11.0d do you suggest removing all attenuators or keeping them where they give us the best signal overall?


I'm going to remove my 20Db attenuator and see what happens.


----------



## Ziggy86

I am getting pixellation on one channel (HBO HD) and I checked the signal strength and it shows about 83-85% while my other channels all seem to have 98-100%

I am on Time Warner cable not FiOS but I have the same issues as you guys.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

sinanju said:


> I recorded Speed Racer during the free HBO weekend and it did look like crap. It had every ingredient for a bad translation to HD: Lots of contrast, lots of sharp edges between primary colors, and lots of action. But, perhaps the truly fatal flaw was a terrible box office that left little money or interest in a really high-quality encoding -- though, that's speculation, of course.


It would be interesting if someone who owns the DVD or Blu-ray can record it from HBO HD and compare. It would be quite sad if a DVD was superior to "HD" from HBO.

It would also be interesting if the TiVo stored the values of corrected and uncorrected errors as part of the recording. If the recording looks like crap but the error numbers are low, that would tend to exculpate the TiVo.


----------



## bkdtv

I have FiOS and received the 11.0d update yesterday.

I was previously able to eliminate 99+% of all pixelization with 16+dB attenuation. Without this attenuation, most channels exhibited massive pixelization and some channels would not reliably tune.

I did not notice any problems post-install. To test potential improvement with this release, I removed my attenuation this afternoon. To my surprise, I do not see any pixelization on any channel. I checked all my favorite channels for RS Uncorrected errors, and saw none except for occasional errors in the first second or so after tuning a channel. After the first second, there were no further RS Uncorrected errors. Channels that previously required some attenuation to tune...can now be tuned without attenuation and without pixelization.

*Verdict:* At least for me, the 11.0d update eliminates the need for attenuation. Pixelization is nowhere to be seen. :up::up::up:


----------



## richsadams

bkdtv said:


> *Verdict:* At least for me, the 11.0d update eliminates the need for attenuation. Pixelization is nowhere to be seen. :up::up::up:


Awesome! :up:


----------



## Gregor

Wow that is great news, I'll have to keep an eye out for that.


----------



## sinanju

Phantom Gremlin said:


> It would be interesting if someone who owns the DVD or Blu-ray can record it from HBO HD and compare. It would be quite sad if a DVD was superior to "HD" from HBO.


"Speed Racer features a stunning, jaw-dropping 1080p/VC-1 transfer that, in my humble opinion, puts some other high-scoring Blu-ray releases to shame."

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1658/speedracer2008.html


----------



## alleyooptroop

this is great. i just have to wait for the 11.0d update (i have 11.0c right now). anyone know when i should get it?



bkdtv said:


> I have FiOS and received the 11.0d update yesterday.
> 
> I was previously able to eliminate 99+% of all pixelization with 16+dB attenuation. Without this attenuation, most channels exhibited massive pixelization and some channels would not reliably tune.
> 
> I did not notice any problems post-install. To test potential improvement with this release, I removed my attenuation this afternoon. To my surprise, I do not see any pixelization on any channel. I checked all my favorite channels for RS Uncorrected errors, and saw none except for occasional errors in the first second or so after tuning a channel. After the first second, there were no further RS Uncorrected errors. Channels that previously required some attenuation to tune...can now be tuned without attenuation and without pixelization.
> 
> *Verdict:* At least for me, the 11.0d update eliminates the need for attenuation. Pixelization is nowhere to be seen. :up::up::up:


----------



## richsadams

alleyooptroop said:


> this is great. i just have to wait for the 11.0d update (i have 11.0c right now). anyone know when i should get it?


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7362339#post7362339


----------



## DCIFRTHS

bkdtv said:


> I have FiOS and received the 11.0d update yesterday. ... *Verdict:* At least for me, the 11.0d update eliminates the need for attenuation. Pixelization is nowhere to be seen. :up::up::up:


That's great news. I haven't received version 11.0d yet, so I guess I will have to wait until they roll it out to everyone. I don't have many channels that pixilate, so I can deal for another couple of weeks.

I am *so* curious what TiVo has changed. In this post, TiVoJerry said...


> The changes made may even improve video quality with other providers as well.


...any educated guesses ???


----------



## bicker

Hmmm... one of four reasons not to switch to FiOS eliminated (with the second of four reasons scheduled for elimination on October 20).


----------



## richsadams

bicker said:


> (with the second of four reasons scheduled for elimination on October 20).


Which is...  Dying to know 'cause I already switched and am loving it. Will life get even better?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

richsadams said:


> Which is...  Dying to know 'cause I already switched and am loving it. Will life get even better?


Maybe he is locked into a contract with his current provider.


----------



## bicker

richsadams said:


> Which is...  Dying to know 'cause I already switched and am loving it. Will life get even better?





DCIFRTHS said:


> Maybe he is locked into a contract with his current provider.


No, no.

There were five things (I miscounted before, when I said "four" things) for which Comcast was better that FiOS that precluded me from switching:

(1) Comcast works perfectly fine with TiVos, without any need to screw around with attenuation.

(2) Comcast provides expanded basic to every television in my home for no extra charge.

(3) Comcast provides AMC in HD, so we'll be able to enjoy Mad Men in HD.

(4) Comcast is $40 less expensive, per month, for the same services.

(5) Comcast supports my router as primary, so I know how to set up the dual port-forwarding arrangement that I need on my LAN.

This fix by TiVo obviates #1. #2 is obviated on October 20, when Comcast starts requiring a box on every television with that level of service, just like FiOS. #3 is only relevant until November 1, when the season finale of Mad Men is broadcast. (I could switch back to Comcast if FiOS doesn't get AMC in HD by the time Mad Men's next season begins, probably more than a year from now.) #4 expires in November (though I may be able to get it extended) #5 is just a matter of waiting until someone else has the same needs as I do with regard to dual port-forwarding, and incurs the pain of figuring out how to get it to work reliably, and posting it online. 

So perhaps by the end of the year, FiOS and Comcast will be on par with each other, and I'll be considering switching then.


----------



## vurbano

wmcbrine said:


> alleyooptroop, the problem you're describing is really not what this thread is about. The "Fios pixellation problem" is due to errors that can occur at any time.


I thought the problem had to do with the signal level of Fios being too high and could be solved with attenuators. Pardon me if I am wrong, trying to figure it all out for my upcoming Fios install on July 8, 2009


----------



## vurbano

I think there are 4 things that Comcast is better than Fios at for you in your opinion. I have never watched Mad men and could really care less.


----------



## bkdtv

vurbano said:


> I think there are 4 things that Comcast is better than Fios at for you in your opinion. I have never watched Mad men and could really care less.


Mad Men and Breaking Bad are two of the best shows on TV, imo.  I'd rank them right up there with Dexter and Damages.

If you haven't seen those shows, you may want to grab the DVDs from Netflix.



vurbano said:


> I thought the problem had to do with the signal level of Fios being too high and could be solved with attenuators. Pardon me if I am wrong, trying to figure it all out for my upcoming Fios install on July 8, 2009


It is a tuner sensitivity issue. Sometimes it is the signal strength and other times the signal spec seems to be differ enough from other cable companies to cause problems for the TivoHD. In many cases, attenuation completely resolves the problem, but there are also instances where it doesn't (or doesn't resolve the problem on every channel) as evidenced by this thread. Even when attenuation does eliminate the problem, it can be a tedious process to find the right amount.

It looks like the new 11.0d software will finally address the issue. I previously required 16-18dB of attenuation to eliminate pixelization, and so far with the new software, I haven't needed any attenuation at all. I am just one person, and it's only been two days, but this update *appears* to make the TivoHD's tuner at least as robust as the Motorola DVR, because I required 3-4dB attenuation to eliminate pixelization and stutter on that box last year.

_Edit: I have one of the original Motorola 601 ONTs which outputs as a "hot" signal at over +21dB. From the ONT, I have a three-way splitter, so my TiVo is probably seeing a signal in the +15dB range. Newer ONTs output a signal in the +10 to +16dB range, before any splits._


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

bkdtv said:


> *Verdict:* At least for me, the 11.0d update eliminates the need for attenuation. Pixelization is nowhere to be seen. :up::up::up:


This is almost enough to make a grown man cry.

How many people (hundreds?, thousands?) fiddled with attenuators over the last 18 months? How many truck rolls from Verizon? How many exchanged boxes? How many RMAs? How many posts on TiVo Community?

And now there's a *software fix?* Eighteen months later? That's all it comes down to? TiVo initialized some chipset registers incorrectly (or something similar), and someone finally got around to fixing it?

Corporate culture is so incredibly important. I've tackled flaky hardware in the past, chased intermittent problems, worked on obscure customer problems. Thankfully most companies I have worked for understood that it was *important* to do that, to root cause problems, to not put their hands over their ears and say: "I'm not listening!".

Too bad that attitude is not part of TiVo's corporate culture.


----------



## bkdtv

Phantom Gremlin said:


> And now there's a *software fix?* Eighteen months later? That's all it comes down to? TiVo initialized some chipset registers incorrectly (or something similar), and someone finally got around to fixing it?


I doubt we will ever know the source of the problem.

Was it a bug in the TiVo software? Was it a problem with the firmware for the Microtune silicon tuner? Was it a problem with the QAM demod driver provided by ATI?

Was it coincidence that TiVo and/or its partners were only able to resolve this problem after FiOS TV came to CA? Was it coincidence that this problem was only fixed after Broadcom acquired ATI's DTV business and took over product support and driver development?


----------



## bicker

Perhaps they would have been better off never fixing this.


----------



## modular46

This truly is great news, I am grateful that TIVO recognized the problem and worked out a solution to this. I think its most important to remember that TIVO has to deal with different signals from different companies where as each provider only has to worry about their own signals. 

The headaches I got from the pixelation problem was nothing compared to the unreliability I had with the motorola boxes with Verizon. Verizon also offered me nothing for my trouble and problems. I signed a 2 year committment to Verizon with the trust that I would get good working equipment and as soon as my 1 month grace period was over they had me and they didnt really care about my problems even after talking to supervisor after superivosr. 

It's all about supply and demand and Verizon has so many customers switching to them that they can't meet the demand and therefore really have put their customer support on the backend. At least Tivo addressed their issues.


----------



## modular46

One other thing that I just thought about. Now that the pixelation problems are to be resolved, what about the Cable card issues? Any word if one cable card will work with the FIOS service? I feel it's totally unfair that Verizon makes you pay extra for cable cards so to view their signal in the first place. Yet alone they make you pay for 2 cable cards per receiver to receive the signal. If you have 3 receivers that's a good amount of money.

It's like you get Comcast service, agree to the contract and amount with Comcast and then all of a sudden they decide to charge you a $5 surcharge per month for each co-ax cable you have at each set. 

Any word if one card will work with each set?


----------



## rainwater

modular46 said:


> One other thing that I just thought about. Now that the pixelation problems are to be resolved, what about the Cable card issues? Any word if one cable card will work with the FIOS service?


Most Fios markets are only deploying M-cards now, so I am not sure what you mean. Either way, you should use a different thread since this thread is relating to pixelation issues with Fios.


----------



## ah30k

bicker said:


> Perhaps they would have been better off never fixing this.


When a critical problem (and the amount of pixelation we are seeing makes this a critical problem) lingers for so long and the parade of fan-boys claiming it is not TiVos fault stretches around the block and then finally a fix is announced you should expect just a little bit of anger, no?

Or are your fan-boy glasses distorting your view?


----------



## sinanju

Phantom Gremlin said:


> And now there's a *software fix?* Eighteen months later? That's all it comes down to? TiVo initialized some chipset registers incorrectly (or something similar), and someone finally got around to fixing it?


Or, there's a problem with Verizon's equipment that TiVo has just figured out how to work around. There's as much evidence for that perspective as yours.


----------



## richsadams

sinanju said:


> Or, there's a problem with Verizon's equipment that TiVo has just figured out how to work around. There's as much evidence for that perspective as yours.


That's the exact scenario with the original TiVo HD release and Scientific Atlanta cable cards. THD's worked perfectly with Motorola CC's, but SA's cards were problematic for some reason. After three software tweaks TiVo was able to overcome whatever the issue was. I'm sure both cards were meeting the "standards" that everyone is happy to point to, but obviously there was a difference. Clearly that can happen.

The issue hasn't affected me (and I'd wager a majority of TiVo FIOS users) but I can understand the frustration for others. Late to the party or not I'm just glad someone stepped up to the plate to resolve it.


----------



## ah30k

sinanju said:


> Or, there's a problem with Verizon's equipment that TiVo has just figured out how to work around. There's as much evidence for that perspective as yours.


OK, it took them 18 months of terrible product experience to figure out how to work in a Verizon environment.

That really doesn't sound all that much better if you ask me.


----------



## flynz4

I have probably driven more "industry specifications" (sometimes called standards) than any other human being on the planet. From experience... I do not believe that there was ever a perfect specification... nor a specification that was not interpreted differently by various very smart and competent engineers.

At the end of the day... for standards to work it takes a strong commitment by all of the companies involved to work on interoperability issues. I predict this will never change.

/Jim


----------



## wmcbrine

modular46 said:


> One other thing that I just thought about. Now that the pixelation problems are to be resolved, what about the Cable card issues? Any word if one cable card will work with the FIOS service?


That's not a Fios issue. It works the same way on all systems: a single "M" (multistream) card suffices for the TiVo HD, but not for the original Series 3.


----------



## richsadams

flynz4 said:


> I do not believe that there was ever a perfect specification... nor a specification that was not interpreted differently by various very smart and competent engineers.
> 
> At the end of the day... for standards to work it takes a strong commitment by all of the companies involved to work on interoperability issues. I predict this will never change.


Well put Jim. :up:


----------



## vurbano

bkdtv said:


> Mad Men and Breaking Bad are two of the best shows on TV, imo.  I'd rank them right up there with Dexter and Damages.


Ive watched Dexter, its OK. Id say BSG, Lost, Weeds,Chuck,2.5 men,Big Bang theory, Fringe, were/are the best shows on TV. Of course none compared to Deadwood and Sopranos.


----------



## alleyooptroop

So I'm still waiting on the update but I decided to check the diagnostics again and saw that my snr was at 37. Could this be continuing my macroblocking problems during fast action scenes? I know that macroblocking is caused by the compressed signal from the provider but a couple pages back someone mentioned that the fios signal isn't compressed.


----------



## bkdtv

alleyooptroop said:


> So I'm still waiting on the update but I decided to check the diagnostics again and saw that my snr was at 37. Could this be continuing my macroblocking problems during fast action scenes? I know that macroblocking is caused by the compressed signal from the provider but a couple pages back someone mentioned that the fios signal isn't compressed.


All high-definition signals are compressed. Verizon just doesn't re-compress most channels further to add compression beyond what the content provider already uses. For example, Verizon doesn't take a channel distributed as 16.5Mbps and re-compress it into 8-12Mbps like most other providers.

The premium movie channels all distribute their channels at relatively low bitrates, so you'll see compression artifacts during scenes with lots of movement. The HBO and Cinemax channels are only distributed at 6-7Mbps VBR with 8Mbps peaks using MPEG-4, and this is achieved with realtime compression of a MPEG-2 source by HBO. By comparison, channels like ESPN, Hdnet, and TNT use 17-19Mbps, or more than twice the bandwidth.

Your SNR does not have anything to do with picture quality. The only indicator on DVR Diagnostics that has any effect on picture or audio quality is RS Uncorrected errors. RS Uncorrected errors is how the TiVo reports signal errors that cause pixelization and audio dropouts. If you see 0 RS Uncorrected errors on the channel, then you know you are seeing the channel just as it is delivered. A few dozen RS Uncorrected errors won't be noticeable, but if you see millions RS Uncorrected errors per minute, then you know that additional pixelization and/or AV degradation is introduced.

Many are able to eliminate these RS Uncorrected errors with attenuation, which also reduces the SNR. The SNR 31 referenced in this topic is only meant as a suggested guideline to help people apply the right level of attenuation.

The new 11.0d release appears to address this problem, so that RS Uncorrected errors are eliminated without any need for attenuation. I've now had the 11.0d release for four days and have not seen any pixelization or any RS Uncorrected errors on any channel after tuning, without attenuation.


----------



## bicker

ah30k said:


> Or are your fan-boy glasses distorting your view?


With respect: Get off your high horse. I was commenting on the unreasonable (bordering on irrational) nature of the criticism that I was replying to. I've never had a dog in this hunt, and if you go back in the threads on this you'll see that the only comments I've ever put in were criticisms of TiVo, linking this situation to a general lack of robustness in the S3, including references to my own trials with TiVo's overly-persnickety tuners.

People can acknowledge that this was a limitation of the TiVo without granting all manner of juvenile pot-shots being launched at TiVo in response.


----------



## alleyooptroop

So is it just LCD's that have this problem? Would I notice it on a plasma?



bkdtv said:


> All high-definition signals are compressed. Verizon just doesn't re-compress most channels further to add compression beyond what the content provider already uses. For example, Verizon doesn't take a channel distributed as 16.5Mbps and re-compress it into 8-12Mbps like most other providers.
> 
> The premium movie channels all distribute their channels at relatively low bitrates, so you'll see compression artifacts during scenes with lots of movement. The HBO and Cinemax channels are only distributed at 6-7Mbps VBR with 8Mbps peaks using MPEG-4, and this is achieved with realtime compression of a MPEG-2 source by HBO. By comparison, channels like ESPN, Hdnet, and TNT use 17-19Mbps, or more than twice the bandwidth.
> 
> Your SNR does not have anything to do with picture quality. The only indicator on DVR Diagnostics that has any effect on picture or audio quality is RS Uncorrected errors. RS Uncorrected errors is how the TiVo reports signal errors that cause pixelization and audio dropouts. If you see 0 RS Uncorrected errors on the channel, then you know you are seeing the channel just as it is delivered. A few dozen RS Uncorrected errors won't be noticeable, but if you see millions RS Uncorrected errors per minute, then you know that additional pixelization and/or AV degradation is introduced.
> 
> Many are able to eliminate these RS Uncorrected errors with attenuation, which also reduces the SNR. The SNR 31 referenced in this topic is only meant as a suggested guideline to help people apply the right level of attenuation.
> 
> The new 11.0d release appears to address this problem, so that RS Uncorrected errors are eliminated without any need for attenuation. I've now had the 11.0d release for four days and have not seen any pixelization or any RS Uncorrected errors on any channel after tuning, without attenuation.


----------



## bkdtv

alleyooptroop said:


> So is it just LCD's that have this problem? Would I notice it on a plasma?


Ehh? My post didn't say anything about LCDs.

If you don't see any RS Uncorrected errors on the System Information -> DVR Diagnostics screen, then you are seeing the picture as it is sent. If the action on the screen requires more bandwidth than HBO gives to the channel, you will see compression artifacts regardless of what TV you have.

Some displays can make existing compression artifacts more apparent (easily seen) with their built-in processing; what I've read suggests that the XBR9 may do that with the default settings. You might try the XBR9 settings suggested by Cnet. _If the picture with these settings is too dark, you might up the brightness a few ticks._

If you still aren't happy with the picture on the XBR9, then you might return it and try something else. I like the Panasonic TC-P54G10 plasma for rooms without bright lighting.


----------



## alleyooptroop

Here's an interesting thread regarding the macroblocking issue. Looks like attenuation (at least for this guy) DID effect his macroblocking issue:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=400278&highlight=Macroblocking



bkdtv said:


> Ehh? My post didn't say anything about LCDs.
> 
> If you don't see any RS Uncorrected errors on the System Information -> DVR Diagnostics screen, then you are seeing the picture as it is sent. If the action on the screen requires more bandwidth than HBO gives to the channel, you will see compression artifacts regardless of what TV you have.
> 
> Some displays can make existing compression artifacts more apparent (easily seen) with their built-in processing; what I've read suggests that the XBR9 may do that with the default settings. You might try the XBR9 settings suggested by Cnet. _If the picture with these settings is too dark, you might up the brightness a few ticks._
> 
> If you still aren't happy with the picture on the XBR9, then you might return it and try something else. I like the Panasonic TC-P54G10 plasma for rooms without bright lighting.


----------



## bkdtv

alleyooptroop said:


> Here's an interesting thread regarding the macroblocking issue. Looks like attenuation (at least for this guy) DID effect his macroblocking issue:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=400278&highlight=Macroblocking


You're beginning to sound like a broken record. 

Once again, pixelization can be caused by RS Uncorrected errors. Attenuation can often eliminate these RS Uncorrected errors, thereby eliminating the pixelization that they cause.

Many on this forum, myself included, found that attenuation eliminated the RS Uncorrected errors that were responsible for mass pixelization. Without any attenuation, I saw tens of millions of RS Uncorrected errors per minute which produced mass pixelization, even when there was no movement on the screen. I needed 16-18dB of attenuation to eliminate those errors; eliminating those errors eliminated the pixelization. With the new/upcoming 11.0d software, TiVo appears to have figured out a way to eliminate the RS Uncorrected errors without the attenuation, so attenuation is no longer necessary.

If you do not see RS Uncorrected errors on the DVR Diagnostics screen for the channel, then attenuation won't do anything because there is nothing to fix. You're seeing exactly what is broadcast and you'd see the same thing regardless of what box you are using. The settings on your TV can increase the visibility of those artifacts on your TV.


----------



## subgenius37

Been a while since I posted, but I had another solution for the Verizon FiOS w/ TIVO HD problem some MAY want to try. I have it attenuated with a low pass filter and this does "fix" the problem say 95% of the time. I'm in the Portland, OR area and most of my problems are on the local HD channels. So my solution for the last 5%, I bought a powered HD antenna http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=2 . 23$ and I now get a clear HD picture all the time. I had to run setup on the TIVO box again to be able to use Cable Cards and an Antenna, nothing deleted just took a while to run the setup again. I will say I am VERY impressed with the quality of the over-the-air PQ. Easily as good if not better than the FiOS signal.

Something to consider.


----------



## richsadams

subgenius37 said:


> Been a while since I posted, but I had another solution for the Verizon FiOS w/ TIVO HD problem some MAY want to try. I have it attenuated with a low pass filter and this does "fix" the problem say 95% of the time. I'm in the Portland, OR area and most of my problems are on the local HD channels. So my solution for the last 5%, I bought a powered HD antenna http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=2 . 23$ and I now get a clear HD picture all the time. I had to run setup on the TIVO box again to be able to use Cable Cards and an Antenna, nothing deleted just took a while to run the setup again. I will say I am VERY impressed with the quality of the over-the-air PQ. Easily as good if not better than the FiOS signal.
> 
> Something to consider.


Per TiVoJerry's recent post v11.0d will ideally make all of the work-arounds unnecessary. And per bkdtv's testimony it works (at least for him)!


----------



## ciucca

Phantom Gremlin said:


> This is almost enough to make a grown man cry.
> 
> How many people (hundreds?, thousands?) fiddled with attenuators over the last 18 months? How many truck rolls from Verizon? How many exchanged boxes? How many RMAs? How many posts on TiVo Community?
> 
> And now there's a *software fix?* Eighteen months later? That's all it comes down to? TiVo initialized some chipset registers incorrectly (or something similar), and someone finally got around to fixing it?
> 
> Corporate culture is so incredibly important. I've tackled flaky hardware in the past, chased intermittent problems, worked on obscure customer problems. Thankfully most companies I have worked for understood that it was *important* to do that, to root cause problems, to not put their hands over their ears and say: "I'm not listening!".
> 
> Too bad that attitude is not part of TiVo's corporate culture.


I think a few people remember the DTIVO issue around 4 or 5 years ago. It turned out that a tuner parameter was initialized with an incorrect value. I'm sure it is a similar issue this time. The sad part is that it took over a year to be fixed. I wonder what changed over there to wake them up.


----------



## richsadams

ciucca said:


> I think a few people remember the DTIVO issue around 4 or 5 years ago. It turned out that a tuner parameter was initialized with an incorrect value. I'm sure it is a similar issue this time.


If that's the case why would a majority of TiVo/FIOS installs be working perfectly fine? Wouldn't that be problematic for everyone (such as it was for owners of TiVo HD's and SA cable cards)? Just asking.


----------



## webin

Phantom Gremlin said:


> And now there's a *software fix?* Eighteen months later? That's all it comes down to? TiVo initialized some chipset registers incorrectly (or something similar), and someone finally got around to fixing it?


It's actually a hardware fix. What TiVo has done is assemble some carbon nanostructures inside the tivo box into some robot-like mechanisms. These "nanobots" then moved to the tuner card circuitry and hardwired a new copper/zinc connection between solder points SP425 and SP203. This allowed increased amperage flow between the two primary tuner chipsets.

The reason the fix took so long to implement was because autonomous nanobot programming is still an incredibly difficult process, particularly with you give the little guys nano-welding torches.


----------



## richsadams

webin said:


> It's actually a hardware fix. What TiVo has done is assemble some carbon nanostructures inside the tivo box into some robot-like mechanisms. These "nanobots" then moved to the tuner card circuitry and hardwired a new copper/zinc connection between solder points SP425 and SP203. This allowed increased amperage flow between the two primary tuner chipsets.
> 
> The reason the fix took so long to implement was because autonomous nanobot programming is still an incredibly difficult process, particularly with you give the little guys nano-welding torches.


That is sooooo cool!! And not a moment too soon. :up:


----------



## MPSAN

richsadams said:


> That is sooooo cool!! And not a moment too soon. :up:


And the best thing is it was explained by someone in Hillsboro! Perhaps he is a Netflix "plant" as that is where the Call Center is (actually in the bldg near where I worked!).


----------



## webin

MPSAN said:


> And the best thing is it was explained by someone in Hillsboro! Perhaps he is a Netflix "plant" as that is where the Call Center is (actually in the bldg near where I worked!).


I'm actually just across the street from one of the Intel campuses, where they have some people doing hardware overhauls: http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/488-17-intel-r-d-hillsboro.html

I assure you though, no circuits were harmed by my nanobot slave army....


----------



## vurbano

alleyooptroop said:


> this is great. i just have to wait for the 11.0d update (i have 11.0c right now). anyone know when i should get it?


Ditto. I am scheduled to get FIOS installed on 7/8/09 and would rather not run out and buy attenuators if a software upgrade will fix the problem. If it works they need to roll it out.


----------



## sinanju

vurbano said:


> Ditto. I am scheduled to get FIOS installed on 7/8/09 and would rather not run out and buy attenuators if a software upgrade will fix the problem. If it works they need to roll it out.


You shouldn't buy attenuators in either case. Every Verizon truck that has rolled to my house has had a pile of them in every denomination. Just ask for them if you haven't gotten the update.... They left me with 3x8dB, 2x3dB, and 1 6dB attenuators.


----------



## almahix

According to TiVo, the 11.0.d rollout is in progress. It started on 6/30 and they estimate all regions will have received the update within 3 weeks.


----------



## vurbano

almahix said:


> According to TiVo, the 11.0.d rollout is in progress. It started on 6/30 and they estimate all regions will have received the update within 3 weeks.


goodness, 3 weeks is a long time. I guess I am spoiled being a D* CE tester every week.


----------



## richsadams

almahix said:


> According to TiVo, the 11.0.d rollout is in progress. It started on 6/30 and they estimate all regions will have received the update within 3 weeks.


According to TiVoJerry the CS Ramp evaluation began distribution on the 1st to a limited number of boxes. That lasts for at least two weeks to determine how much feedback TiVo receives. Based on that and if they deem the upgrade fit they will then begin distribution to the wild. Generally that can take as long as several weeks to complete. However since this is a limited update it may go much quicker. IIRC upgrades are sent out Monday through Thursday. In reality I wouldn't expect full distribution to be completed until the end of the month, but hopefully sooner (providing it works of course).


----------



## almahix

I read his post last week. What I posted is what I was told today by Tivo technical support person Seth. He and Jerry can duke it out!


----------



## DeWitt

bkdtv said:


> Ehh? My post didn't say anything about LCDs.
> 
> If you don't see any RS Uncorrected errors on the System Information -> DVR Diagnostics screen, then you are seeing the picture as it is sent. If the action on the screen requires more bandwidth than HBO gives to the channel, you will see compression artifacts regardless of what TV you have.
> 
> Some displays can make existing compression artifacts more apparent (easily seen) with their built-in processing; what I've read suggests that the XBR9 may do that with the default settings. You might try the XBR9 settings suggested by Cnet. _If the picture with these settings is too dark, you might up the brightness a few ticks._
> 
> If you still aren't happy with the picture on the XBR9, then you might return it and try something else. I like the Panasonic TC-P54G10 plasma for rooms without bright lighting.


this thread is not the place for display wars, but if you really want to know all of the issues that matter or not for displays,(and learn about Macroblocking issues) I suggest looking at the display forums on avsforum.com. they seem to be the definitive reference.


----------



## alleyooptroop

DeWitt said:


> this thread is not the place for display wars, but if you really want to know all of the issues that matter or not for displays,(and learn about Macroblocking issues) I suggest looking at the display forums on avsforum.com. they seem to be the definitive reference.


i understand that but if the macroblocking is being caused by the way my tivo processes the verizon fios signal, then this is probably the best thread to watch. just so everyone can see what i see here are some screenshots of speed racer i took with my cell phone:

there's a scene where a bad guy puts some raw meat into an aquarium of piranha like fish. here's what it looked like when the fish were scrambling to eat









the scene cuts to a closeup of one of the drivers which still looks pixelated









then it smoothes out


----------



## bkdtv

alleyooptroop said:


> i understand that but if the macroblocking is being caused by the way my tivo processes the verizon fios signal, then this is probably the best thread to watch. just so everyone can see what i see here are some screenshots of speed racer i took with my cell phone:


If you aren't seeing bulk numbers of RS Uncorrected errors on the TiVo, then you are seeing the image exactly as it is delivered by FiOS and there is no macroblocking caused by the TiVo.

There is nothing special about how the TiVo decodes high-definition MPEG-2 signals; in fact, the TiVo uses the same processor / decoder as the Motorola box. You see the same compression artifacts on _Speed Racer_ with the FiOS' Motorola boxes.

FiOS' Motorola DVR user:



URFloorMatt said:


> I watched Speed Racer on either HBO Family or one of the secondary Cinemax channels when there was tons of macroblocking. I forget which it was.


The issues with Speed Racer aren't specific to FiOS either. A number of DirecTV customers complained too:



CPanther95 said:


> I know Speed Racer is a demanding (and very crappy) movie on bandwidth, but I tuned into it today on Starz (edit: Cinemax) and the blocking was horrendous. Been a while since I saw something on D* that I'd classify as unwatchable due to D*'s delivery - but that would certainly be how I'd classify Starz this morning.





moob said:


> I remember seeing the _promo_ for Speed Racer on MAX and it was horrendous. And it was weird because it was one of those promos with a bunch of different movies, and only Speed Racer looked like crap.





demonspawn said:


> glad im not the only one to notice this. the macro blocking was horrible on this movie and of course they keep showing it over and over


When X program requires Y bits, and Y bits aren't available, you'll see blocking and other compression artifacts. It has nothing to do with the TiVo or how the TiVo handles the FiOS signal.

As noted above, the premium movie channels use significantly more compression than many other channels, so they will exhibit more compression artifacts during complex scenes than other channels. A movie like _Speed Racer_ is just about the worst possible test case for these highly compressed channels (compressed by HBO, not FiOS). Of the HBO and Cinemax channels, the main east and west feeds end to offer somewhat better picture quality, so I would record from those when you can.


----------



## alleyooptroop

i just can't believe that this is the norm. i was so excited to finally move to hd and this is what i get. it's just so irritating. so i would see this if i was on directv or really any other provider?

btw, i talked to tivo tech support tonight and it sounded like the guy i spoke to didn't know anything. he just ran through the series of questions in his book (even after i explained the macroblocking issue) and just offered to replace my tivo hd unit. it's like he wasn't even trying.



bkdtv said:


> If you aren't seeing bulk numbers of RS Uncorrected errors on the TiVo, then you are seeing the image exactly as it is delivered by FiOS and there is no macroblocking caused by the TiVo.
> 
> There is nothing special about how the TiVo decodes high-definition MPEG-2 signals; in fact, the TiVo uses the same processor / decoder as the Motorola box. You see the same compression artifacts on _Speed Racer_ with the FiOS' Motorola boxes.
> 
> FiOS' Motorola DVR user:
> 
> The issues with Speed Racer aren't specific to FiOS either. A number of DirecTV customers complained too:
> 
> When X program requires Y bits, and Y bits aren't available, you'll see blocking and other compression artifacts. It has nothing to do with the TiVo or how the TiVo handles the FiOS signal.
> 
> As noted above, the premium movie channels use significantly more compression than many other channels, so they will exhibit more compression artifacts during complex scenes than other channels. A movie like _Speed Racer_ is just about the worst possible test case for these highly compressed channels (compressed by HBO, not FiOS). Of the HBO and Cinemax channels, the main east and west feeds end to offer somewhat better picture quality, so I would record from those when you can.


----------



## bkdtv

alleyooptroop said:


> i just can't believe that this is the norm. i was so excited to finally move to hd and this is what i get. it's just so irritating. so i would see this if i was on directv or really any other provider?


Yes. In fact, every other provider is worse. With FiOS, you only see macroblocking that bad with certain content on certain channels, such as HBO, Cinemax, and HGTV. Many (most?) channels do not use such high levels of compression, so they look much better. With other providers, you see similar artifacts with far more content on far more channels.

As I noted above, the settings on your TV can make it worse. For example, if your sharpness setting is too high, or you have certain processing modes enabled (like DNIE on Samsung televisions), then the TV will enhance the edges of macroblocks to make them much more obvious and therefore distracting. Using the default settings on the TV will cause you to see more artifacts than you should; I've already linked Cnet's recommended settings for your TV, so I assume you are using them.



alleyooptroop said:


> btw, i talked to tivo tech support tonight and it sounded like the guy i spoke to didn't know anything. he just ran through the series of questions in his book (even after i explained the macroblocking issue) and just offered to replace my tivo hd unit. it's like he wasn't even trying.


The TiVo support folks are not A/V enthusiasts like many members of TCF and AVS. They only know what they've been taught in a short training course. The rest of the time, they must to refer to the "book."


----------



## oViTynoT

I'm anxious for the new software. I've currently got 28dB (!!) of attenuators on my TiVo; No amount of attenuation fixed all my problems. Without them, some channels are bad. WITH thim, other channels are bad but the ones I care most about are good.


----------



## flames9

vurbano said:


> Ditto. I am scheduled to get FIOS installed on 7/8/09 and would rather not run out and buy attenuators if a software upgrade will fix the problem. If it works they need to roll it out.


Thanks to this baord--U guys rock---I knew of the FIOS/TIVO problems and talked the verizon tech, who had NO clue!! He didn't bring any Attenuators, BUT he went back to their office and picked me up a handful! Super nice guy. Luckily I havent used them, as for the most part all is well. A few channels do show some pixels, but they are not channels we watch!


----------



## alleyooptroop

so the macroblocking will show up regardless of the type of tv? i have a friend who has a dlp and he claims he gets none on directv hd.



bkdtv said:


> Yes. In fact, every other provider is worse. With FiOS, you only see macroblocking that bad with certain content on certain channels, such as HBO, Cinemax, and HGTV. Many (most?) channels do not use such high levels of compression, so they look much better. With other providers, you see similar artifacts with far more content on far more channels.
> 
> As I noted above, the settings on your TV can make it worse. For example, if your sharpness setting is too high, or you have certain processing modes enabled (like DNIE on Samsung televisions), then the TV will enhance the edges of macroblocks to make them much more obvious and therefore distracting. Using the default settings on the TV will cause you to see more artifacts than you should; I've already linked Cnet's recommended settings for your TV, so I assume you are using them.
> 
> The TiVo support folks are not A/V enthusiasts like many members of TCF and AVS. They only know what they've been taught in a short training course. The rest of the time, they must to refer to the "book."


----------



## bkdtv

alleyooptroop said:


> so the macroblocking will show up regardless of the type of tv? i have a friend who has a dlp and he claims he gets none on directv hd.


Perhaps your friend isn't watching the same channels or the same programs? Or maybe his TV has better video processing than your Sony? Or maybe he has done a better job adjusting the settings on his TV to minimize the appearance of artifacts?

Macroblocking will always show up when the channel provides insufficient bandwidth for a particular scene (typically scenes with lots of action or lighting effects). That doesn't mean the artifacts will appear equally bad on every display. Compression artifacts can appear worse on displays with mediocre or inferior video processing (wrt deinterlace and edge enhancement). And compression artifacts will almost always look worse on TVs when the sharpness control is too high or an edge enhancement mode is enabled (such as DNIE on Samsung TVs).

With my 60" Pioneer Kuro, I rarely see macroblocking on the HD channels where I record most of my programs -- the "big four" local networks, TNT, USA, FX, SciFi, Hdnet Movies, CSNDC, MASN, the various ESPNs, Showtime East, and Starz East. I do see macroblocking with action/intensive scenes on the HBO and Cinemax channels, but I've learned to record from the main east and west feeds (ex: HBO-E, Cinemax-E) as they tend to exhibit fewer compression artifacts than the secondary feeds (ex: HBO2, HBO Signature, HBO Comedy, etc). I have not noticed macroblocking in the shows I regularly record on the HBO East feed -- True Blood, Entourage, etc.

_Note compression levels on ABC, CBS, FOX, and NBC vary from market to market. Each local affiliate determines on their own how to split their limited bandwidth between the HD channel and any SD subchannels for weather, traffic, etc._

As far as DirecTV, they don't even offer the channels you seem to be complaining about (the secondary HBO and Cinemax HD feeds). Even so, search the DirecTV forums on DBSTalk.com for "macroblocking" and you'll see hundreds of results. Click here for a DirecTV discussion from this past week.

If you have any further questions or comments on this topic, please send me a PM or post a new thread. This thread is meant for discussion of pixelization due to RS Uncorrected [signal] errors, not overcompression. TiVo has a fix upcoming for A/V issues due to RS Uncorrected errors, but there can't and won't be a fix for artifacts introduced by the channels themselves with overcompression.


----------



## hmm52

alleyooptroop said:


> so the macroblocking will show up regardless of the type of tv? i have a friend who has a dlp and he claims he gets none on directv hd.


Your particular issue doesn't interest me much. But I am really impressed by the wealth of theoretical and practical information *bkdtv* has given you. Wouldn't some appreciation be appropriate?


----------



## ehagberg

Any news as to when 11.0d will get pushed to a wider audience?

I'm still suffering (to some extent) with my FIOS pixellation and would love to see this nagging problem just go away.


----------



## richsadams

ehagberg said:


> Any news as to when 11.0d will get pushed to a wider audience?
> 
> I'm still suffering (to some extent) with my FIOS pixellation and would love to see this nagging problem just go away.


It's been in test 8 days and that usually takes two weeks (depending on feedback). It might be another week or so before it begins going out to everyone (if they're happy with the results) and then it's the luck of the draw as to when it'll show up. Hang in there!


----------



## DingoAce10

Hello all,
Sorry if this is obvious (or has been talked about/answered), I just don't have time to read all 25 pages of this post.
Just a few weeks ago this started to happen... My local HD channels (CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX, WB, UPN) started to "cut out" (pixelated) on us and are basically unwatchable. All recording are very messed up.
Is the Verizon FIOS problem or my Tivo S3? All other HD channels seem to be fine.

Thanks and again sorry if this has already been explained.


----------



## alleyooptroop

hmm52 said:


> Your particular issue doesn't interest me much. But I am really impressed by the wealth of theoretical and practical information *bkdtv* has given you. Wouldn't some appreciation be appropriate?


trust me, i'm absolutely appreciative of all the comments regarding my issues. i love forums like this where people share experiences and knowledge.


----------



## TiVoJerry

We have just made the decision to roll 11.0d to the rest of the units in the field. Barring any unforeseen delays, all HD DVRs will have it by this weekend so there isn't a need for a priority list. 

I just want to remind everyone that the update will happen automatically. Forcing a connection will not bump you up the list to receive the SW. We manually add TSNs once a day to receive the update. The only way it would help you get SW faster is if you happen to make the connection between the time we map it and the time your DVR is already scheduled to connect. 

Thank you all for your patience while we assessed this update.


----------



## NJRonbo

TivoJerry,

Hello.

I'm kind of lost here as I have been loosely following this
thread through email subscription.

Am I understanding correctly that Tivo is rolling out a software
update for all their HD DVRs that will fix the pixelation problems
caused by Verizon Fios incompatibility?

If this is the case, how does one download the software? You 
claim that it will be done automatically, but being unfamiliar with
the manner in which Tivo updates software I was not certain if
anything had to be done manually to accept the update.


----------



## richsadams

NJRonbo said:


> TivoJerry,
> 
> Hello.
> 
> I'm kind of lost here as I have been loosely following this
> thread through email subscription.
> 
> Am I understanding correctly that Tivo is rolling out a software
> update for all their HD DVRs that will fix the pixelation problems
> caused by Verizon Fios incompatibility?
> 
> If this is the case, how does one download the software? You
> claim that it will be done automatically, but being unfamiliar with
> the manner in which Tivo updates software I was not certain if
> anything had to be done manually to accept the update.


You don't have to do anything. This and all software downloads happen automatically when TiVo connects to the "mother ship" to get guide data, etc. That generally happens once per day. The update will also install automatically at 2 a.m. your local time.

Just as an FYI once the download has completed you may see "Pending restart" listed in the Last Status line on the Phone & Network Screen or on the System Information screen. As mentioned TiVo will automatically install the upgrade at 2 a.m. your time or you can reboot it using the TiVo menu Restart option or unplug it and plug it back in and it will update immediately.


----------



## NJRonbo

Cool, thanks Rich.

So, what is this update all about? Is it going to fix the problem?

Can I take the attenuators off of the Tivo? They were beginning to 
fail in any event.


----------



## dlfl

NJRonbo said:


> Cool, thanks Rich.
> 
> So, what is this update all about? Is it going to fix the problem?
> 
> Can I take the attenuators off of the Tivo? They were beginning to
> fail in any event.


The update is about exactly the problem that required the attenuators. AFAIK it has fixed the problem for everyone who has the update. BTW how do you tell an attenuator is failing?


----------



## richsadams

NJRonbo said:


> So, what is this update all about? Is it going to fix the problem?
> 
> Can I take the attenuators off of the Tivo? They were beginning to
> fail in any event.


Here's what Jerry had to say originally...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7362339#post7362339

Ideally you should be able to remove any attenuation. Fingers crossed.


----------



## bkdtv

You should no longer need any attenuators after the 11.0d update. Refer to TiVoJerry's post above and *my review of the 11.0d update* on July 2nd.


----------



## lrhorer

NJRonbo said:


> Cool, thanks Rich.
> 
> So, what is this update all about? Is it going to fix the problem?
> 
> Can I take the attenuators off of the Tivo? They were beginning to
> fail in any event.


Attenuators fail? That's unlikely. An attenuator is nothing but a small resistor network comprised of three resistors. I've never seen one fail, unless someone applies a fairly large ( > 5V) voltage across the input or output.


----------



## moyekj

I just hope 11.0d doesn't disturb anything for non-FIOS users. Hopefully there were a good percentage of non-FIOS users involved in beta testing. I'm going on 3 week vacation out of state starting Wednesday and so my S3s will be at the mercy of hands off software upgrades. I suppose it should likely be fine since TiVo decided to release the software to everyone despite at least 1 complaint I've seen I think from a Comcast user that it broke things. Hopefully it was determined that the side effects for non-FIOS users were minimal especially seeing as FIOS users are still a very small minority compared to user base at large.


----------



## lrhorer

richsadams said:


> My understanding is that VZ does not compress their signals (hence the reason for the superior PQ).


All digitally transmitted video is highly compressed. An uncompressed digital SD stream requires a minimum of 120 Mbps @ 8 bits per sample for "good" reproduction, 150 Mbps @ 10 bits per sample for "excellent" reproduction, and 180 Mbps @12 bits per sample for "perfect" reproduction. (Twelve bits per sample allows for a digitization error as low as 0.025%. which is below the threshold of detectability for a human being.) A 60 fps 1080p stream can run as high as 3Gbps. I don't know what rate shape Verizon applies, but I suspect it would be the more or less "standard" rate of 2 HD and 1 SD streams in a (very much standard) 38 Mbps QAM. Such a rate shape allows videos to occasionally peak at just a bit over 20Mbps.


----------



## TiVoJerry

moyekj said:


> I just hope 11.0d doesn't disturb anything for non-FIOS users. Hopefully there were a good percentage of non-FIOS users involved in beta testing. I'm going on 3 week vacation out of state starting Wednesday and so my S3s will be at the mercy of hands off software upgrades. I suppose it should likely be fine since TiVo decided to release the software to everyone despite at least 1 complaint I've seen I think from a Comcast user that it broke things. Hopefully it was determined that the side effects for non-FIOS users were minimal especially seeing as FIOS users are still a very small minority compared to user base at large.


Of course we took this into consideration. We tested with plenty of non-FiOS customers.


----------



## dlfl

TiVoJerry said:


> Of course we took this into consideration. We tested with plenty of non-FiOS customers.


Can the 11.0d fix(es) be beneficial for non-FIOS setups in some cases?

I've had my HD/Cable-card/TA setup for four days and it is working great. I've been holding my breath that 11.0d won't break it.

It's so nice to have a TiVo engineer working with us on the forum, *especially* one with the GrillMeister rating!


----------



## richsadams

dlfl said:


> Can the 11.0d fix(es) be beneficial for non-FIOS setups in some cases?


You must have missed these posts?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7383308#post7383308



> "Of course we took this into consideration. We tested with plenty of non-FiOS customers."


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7362339#post7362339



> "The main intent of this SW is to reduce pixelation for FiOS customers. Results have been extremely favorable. The changes made may even improve video quality with other providers as well."


----------



## richsadams

lrhorer said:


> All digitally transmitted video is highly compressed. An uncompressed digital SD stream requires a minimum of 120 Mbps @ 8 bits per sample for "good" reproduction, 150 Mbps @ 10 bits per sample for "excellent" reproduction, and 180 Mbps @12 bits per sample for "perfect" reproduction. (Twelve bits per sample allows for a digitization error as low as 0.025%. which is below the threshold of detectability for a human being.) A 60 fps 1080p stream can run as high as 3Gbps. I don't know what rate shape Verizon applies, but I suspect it would be the more or less "standard" rate of 2 HD and 1 SD streams in a (very much standard) 38 Mbps QAM. Such a rate shape allows videos to occasionally peak at just a bit over 20Mbps.


bkdtv responded earlier and this is more good info. Explains why HBOHD looks so lousy compared to some other channels.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

I got the update on all three of my S3 boxes this evening.

So far, on all the channels I have checked, the signal is pegged at 100, the RS Corrected/RS Uncorrected errors are at zero, and the picture looks fine. Even channel 411, which used to show many errors and noticeable pixelation, is perfect.

I hope it stays this way, and that everyone has the same good results 

Thanks TiVo.


----------



## richsadams

DC's post reminded me of the upgrade so just for fun I forced a connection on our TiVo Series3 and our TiVo HD tonight. After the connection both showed "Pending restart" so I tried a menu reboot. Left them alone for about fifteen minutes and when I returned interestingly both boxes were still on the "Almost there...just a few minutes more" screen.  Since this wasn't a regular service update I didn't expect to see the normal update screens, but I hadn't seen them stay on the "Almost there..." screens that long either. I left them alone and checked back in another fifteen minutes and both were playing normally. I'm not sure how long the reboot actually took. Most people won't notice as updates are installed at 2 a.m. local time, but it was a little concerning to see them take so long to boot up this time.

After they came to life I checked and both are now on v11.0d. I took a quick look at various channels. FIOS problems have been a rarity and although we've seen some macroblocking/pixeization I've never added any attenuation. There are a few channels that I know have some issues (RS Uncorrected errors) in our household including VersusHD and USAHD. It was only a ten minute test or so, but so far RS Corrected and Uncorrected errors all show zeros. FWIW the PQ on both channels looked quite good, in particular USAHD seemed to look better (might be my imagination though). Everything else seems to be functioning normally (but I didn't take the time to look at _all_ of the bells and whistles).

Certainly not conclusive findings so I'll have to spend a little more time checking things out later but in a nutshell I'd say so far so good for FIOS and v11.0d ! :up:


----------



## DCIFRTHS

richsadams said:


> DC's post reminded me of the upgrade so just for fun I forced a connection on our TiVo Series3 and our TiVo HD tonight. After the connection both showed "Pending restart" so I tried a menu reboot. Left them alone for about fifteen minutes and when I returned interestingly both boxes were still on the "Almost there...just a few minutes more" screen.  ...


One of my boxes needed to be unplugged as it got stuck on the "Welcome! powering up..." screen for a good two hours.

The last box didn't reboot at 2:00 am. I'm not sure why 
A soft reboot did the trick though.


----------



## SeanC

richsadams said:


> FWIW the PQ on both channels looked quite good, in particular USAHD seemed to look better (might be my imagination though).


I received the d update a week or so ago and removed my 20dB of attenuation. One thing I noticed right away was that USAHD looked A LOT better. Without attenuation I would have pixelation problems, with the attenuation I had an odd picture tearing effect, minor, much better than pixelation, but still noticeable and annoying.

Since the update and removing the attenuation the picture on USAHD has been excellent.


----------



## herbman

Confirming no pixelation (or rs errors) on FIOS with 11d with no attenuation. Previously I had minor pixelation on some and major pixelation on other channels with -6db applied. Smooth sailing now!


----------



## richsadams

DCIFRTHS said:


> One of my boxes needed to be unplugged as it got stuck on the "Welcome! powering up..." screen for a good two hours.
> 
> The last box didn't reboot at 2:00 am. I'm not sure why
> A soft reboot did the trick though.


I almost pulled the plug...I haven't much patience plus it was getting late...but I decided to leave them alone a little longer and it paid off. It seems like there are always a few folks that end up doing a hard reboot after an upgrade. Odd that it didn't install automatically on your other box either. 



SeanC said:


> I received the d update a week or so ago and removed my 20dB of attenuation. One thing I noticed right away was that USAHD looked A LOT better. Without attenuation I would have pixelation problems, with the attenuation I had an odd picture tearing effect, minor, much better than pixelation, but still noticeable and annoying.
> 
> Since the update and removing the attenuation the picture on USAHD has been excellent.


20dB of attenuation?  So it's not my imagination that USAHD looks better? Phew! I didn't have any attenuation though, so maybe it is my imagination. Who knows.

We have SP's for several shows on USAHD including House, Burn Notice and my wife likes Royal Pains (trade off for Burn Notice I think ). The last episode of Royal Pains had some terrible pixelization, enough that we had to FF though parts. There were glitches now and then but I hadn't seen anything that bad previously. Hope now that (in addition to the possible PQ improvements) the pixelization will be a thing of the past.


----------



## SeanC

Well, yeah, I think I really wanted to do 19 but couldn't and 18 was 3 sixes maybe? I don't remember exactly except to say that I was using a combination of 3 attenuators and needed slightly more, the 1 20 worked as the best compromise.


----------



## moyekj

Cox cable here. Got the 11.0d upgrade on both my S3s and they installed very quickly and without issue - seemed like less than 20 minutes each. Probably helps that currently I have almost no recordings on either one. I checked a few of the channels I record from the most for a few minutes and didn't see any RS corrected/uncorrected errors. Note that I didn't have any issues before the upgrade so was just checking to see that the upgrade didn't affect anything. Only time will tell for sure but on a preliminary basis looks to be OK thus far.


----------



## BobCamp1

richsadams said:


> Most people won't notice as updates are installed at 2 a.m. local time, but it was a little concerning to see them take so long to boot up this time.


[Pure speculation]
Maybe it involves a firmware upgrade to one of the other chips?

[/Pure speculation]

Glad they finally fixed it. I may switch to FIOS soon. 
NOT glad it took 18 months. I'd get fired if it took me that long to fix something like that.


----------



## richsadams

BobCamp1 said:


> [Pure speculation]
> Maybe it involves a firmware upgrade to one of the other chips?
> 
> [/Pure speculation]
> 
> Glad they finally fixed it. I may switch to FIOS soon.
> NOT glad it took 18 months. I'd get fired if it took me that long to fix something like that.


IIRC TiVo firmware is never, has never been upgraded, only the software. Could be wrong but IIRC that was a statement made by Jerry or Stephen or someone at TiVo a while back.

So far (even with the few glitches) FIOS has been great for us. I'm still on the "it wasn't TiVo's fault...millions of boxes work fine otherwise and I'm glad they stepped up to the plate side of things. But let's not go there...ever again.  ).


----------



## aaronwt

dlfl said:


> The update is about exactly the problem that required the attenuators. AFAIK it has fixed the problem for everyone who has the update. BTW how do you tell an attenuator is failing?


what about those of us that never had a problem with FIOS?


----------



## mae

I got it last night and manually rebooted. Took about 20 minutes for the install.

No problems here, but I've never had any prior (with no attenuation). Just glad it didn't seem to break anything!

I still have a relatively low signal on two QAM pods (591 and 597 MHz) but that didn't cause any problems before either. There is another thread where there are reports of a problem. I've posted it on the VZ Direct forum at BBR but haven't heard anything back. My only concern with it is that there is failing hardware on VZ's end and it may get worse before it gets better.

I don't see any difference on USA though.

So far, so good!


----------



## rainwater

richsadams said:


> IIRC TiVo firmware is never, has never been upgraded, only the software. Could be wrong but IIRC that was a statement made by Jerry or Stephen or someone at TiVo a while back.


AFAIK, they do have drivers that rely on the chip makers to update. So its possible it was a 3rd party driver or firmware change, but TiVo rarely makes information like this public so we have no way of knowing. I really doesn't seem like it could of been fixed with a simple software update. My guess is it required a driver update and software could of changed to work with the new driver changes.


----------



## webin

aaronwt said:


> what about those of us that never had a problem with FIOS?


I had pixillation problems for the first 10 months or so of FIOS, but it had cleared up pretty well before I received this software version.

Since receiving the software, I've continued to experience no problems whatsoever (and I see the "pegged 100%" signal quality everyone else does, where I didn't before).


----------



## bkdtv

rainwater said:


> AFAIK, they do have drivers that rely on the chip makers to update. So its possible it was a 3rd party driver or firmware change, but TiVo rarely makes information like this public so we have no way of knowing. I really doesn't seem like it could of been fixed with a simple software update. My guess is it required a driver update and software could of changed to work with the new driver changes.


I think that is highly likely as well.

At bootup, the TiVo loads separate Linux drivers for the Broadcom DVR CPU (bcm7401_C1), ATI ATSC/QAM demodulator (ati314_Gen06), and VIXS XCode (xcode2drv), among others.


----------



## richsadams

bkdtv said:


> I think that is highly likely as well.
> 
> At bootup, the TiVo loads separate Linux drivers for the Broadcom DVR CPU (bcm7401_C1), ATI ATSC/QAM demodulator (ati314_Gen06), and VIXS XCode (xcode2drv), among others.


That would be good news indeed. I always felt like my TiVo's were just sitting there getting further and further behind while other things like CC's, etc. were getting firmware updates that resulted in improved operations.

Oh Jerry...can you comment? Does TiVo occasionally push firmware updates?


----------



## bkdtv

richsadams said:


> Oh Jerry...can you comment? Does TiVo occasionally push firmware updates?


Most other DVR manufacturers load drivers from flash memory (i.e. firmware), but TiVo does not. On TiVo, all of the software, including the drivers, load from the hard drive just as on your PC. That's one reason why bad sectors on the drive can cause so many problems.


----------



## richsadams

bkdtv said:


> Most other DVR manufacturers load drivers from flash memory (i.e. firmware), but TiVo does not. On TiVo, all of the software, including the drivers, load from the hard drive just as on your PC. That's one reason why bad sectors on the drive can cause so many problems.


More evidence and makes perfect sense. :up:


----------



## rifleman69

d works for me for every channel that I watch (so there could still be others) except for UHD which is still dialed in at 31 SNR but the error count jumps by the hundreds/thousands. Most likely a Verizon issue, I don't normally watch that channel but for a few times but it's pretty bad.


----------



## bkdtv

rifleman -- Have you tried removing your attenuation?


----------



## GmanTiVo

Re-Post from another thread, thought it may be relevant here as well 

I have had .d now for approx 1 week, removed the -20db attenuator, signal strength back to 100, 37db.

I have left the tuners on the 2 most problematic channes for me (DiscHD and FoodHD) over the weekend. Happy to report Uncorrected errors stayed at 0 for both tuners and not a single pixellation. 

WHOOT WHOOT 

YAY



Thank you Tivo

Gman

ps, I know many are still in the que for the update..... perform a "Kickstart 51" on a daily basis, it may help


----------



## DeWitt

GmanTiVo said:


> ps, I know many are still in the que for the update..... perform a "Kickstart 51" on a daily basis, it may help


From previous comments from Jerry, there is no way to move up in the queue.

My number came up yesterday. I removed all attenuation and can also report great success. 100 signal strength, 0 uncorrected errors.

Looks like a winner!


----------



## vurbano

TiVoJerry said:


> We have just made the decision to roll 11.0d to the rest of the units in the field. Barring any unforeseen delays, all HD DVRs will have it by this weekend so there isn't a need for a priority list.


Hurrrrraay!!!!!!!!


----------



## TiVoJerry

GmanTiVo said:


> ps, I know many are still in the que for the update..... perform a "Kickstart 51" on a daily basis, it may help


This will not in any way cause our servers to deliver SW to you sooner.


----------



## rifleman69

bkdtv said:


> rifleman -- Have you tried removing your attenuation?


Doing that tonight, but have noticed that several other channels that had pixellation (nothing as bad as UHD) were rock solid with the attenuation so figured that UHD might be in the same boat. Will report back tonight.

I don't have any other way to check if UHD is just simply bad at my house due to only having a non-HD receiver on the only other tv in the house, just throwing that out there before someone else mentions it.


----------



## rocko

Add me to the list - 

My THD was having fits with TCM (230) - RS corrected/uncorrected out the wazoo. 9db of attenuation made it watchable. 11.0d came down last night and it looks like RS corrected/uncorrected are at 0 after about an hour of tuning/watching. That's with and without the attenuation (which is now removed).

Good job, TiVo :up:


----------



## GmanTiVo

TiVoJerry said:


> This will not in any way cause our servers to deliver SW to you sooner.


No it won't force your servers to deliver the .d SW when it has not been approved yet but you should recognize that if my TSN number is in the approved que for that day and my S3 is set to check in only at 4am (while I sleep), doing a Kickstart 51 at 2pm in the afternoon will force the unit to upgrade the approved (by TSN) SW rather than waiting do do it automatically later on. 

I stand corrected, see below post

Gman


----------



## bkdtv

GmanTiVo said:


> No it won't force your servers to deliver the .d SW when it has not been approved yet but you should recognize that if my TSN number is in the approved que for that day and my S3 is set to check in only at 4am (while I sleep), doing a Kickstart 51 at 2pm in the afternoon will force the unit to upgrade the approved (by TSN) SW rather than waiting do do it automatically later on.


Please don't confuse people. No one should run Kickstart to install the new software.

Any reboot or restart will immediately install software if it was downloaded during the last connection.

You can check to see whether the new software is on your TiVo, waiting for install, under Messages & Settings -> Settings -> Phone & Network. "Pending Restart" means that your TiVo has the new software ready for install. If the software is on your TiVo and ready for install, you can install it immediately by restarting your TiVo under Messages & Settings -> Restart or Reset TiVo -> Restart the TiVo DVR.


----------



## GmanTiVo

bkdtv said:


> Please don't confuse people. No one should run Kickstart to install the new software.
> 
> Any reboot or restart will immediately install software if it was downloaded during the last connection.
> 
> You can check to see whether the new software is on your TiVo, waiting for install, under Messages & Settings -> Settings -> Phone & Network. "Pending Restart" means that your TiVo has the new software ready for install. If the software is on your TiVo and ready for install,* you can install it immediately by restarting your TiVo under Messages & Settings -> Restart or Reset TiVo -> Restart the TiVo DVR*.


Thank you for the clarification, I am glad I did no damage to my Tivo by doing something else.

Gman


----------



## leeherman

I switched to FIOS in late March and have had some serious pixelization issues on certain channels with my bedroom Tivo HD and rare issues with my living room S3. 

I bought attenuators but never got around to installing them. I'll be looking forward to receiving the new update and testing the results, especially on the bedroom Tivo. I'll update when I receive and test the software.

LH


----------



## rifleman69

An update, UHD looks to be good so far, but I've noticed that before the pixellation would come and go on certain programs. Will look at it more tonight and tomorrow to see if it holds, removed all attenuation for now (Actually I have a splitter being used in the back and haven't removed that but still went from 18db to 2db or so).


----------



## bkdtv

Note UHD is highly compressed by Universal, so you will see compression artifacts. This update won't do anything about compression artifacts that are already part of the original picture signal. But it should eliminate the pixelization caused by signal errors (i.e. massive numbers of RS Uncorrected errors under System Information -> DVR Diagnostics).


----------



## vurbano

Hope I get the update soon.


----------



## TiVoJerry

We just mapped the final batch of units. If you don't have SW yet, you can make a connection to get it now. Otherwise it will download automatically on your next regular service connection.


----------



## rocko

TiVoJerry said:


> We just mapped the final batch of units. If you don't have SW yet, you can make a connection to get it now. Otherwise it will download automatically on your next regular service connection.


Thanks again Jerry. BTW, are you guys hiring? I've been out of work for about 3 months now and watching *way *too much TV. Good thing I have my TiVos


----------



## rifleman69

bkdtv said:


> Note UHD is highly compressed by Universal, so you will see compression artifacts. This update won't do anything about compression artifacts that are already part of the original picture signal. But it should eliminate the pixelization caused by signal errors (i.e. massive numbers of RS Uncorrected errors under System Information -> DVR Diagnostics).


It's not the compression artifacts, it's definitely pixellation that I had on that channel. The uncorrected and corrected errors jumped up by the hundreds/thousands.


----------



## almahix

Thanks to everyone for the information and the regular updates. The guy I spoke to at Tivo about this recently was full of BS with regard to how the updates were to be rolled out by 'region'. Seems more like random vs geography. All my Tivo HDs woke up this morning with 11.0.d, and so far, the channels that were the worst, 50, 51, and 240, are all free of uncorrected errors. I'll be watching those numbers closely for a while, hopefully we've all seen the last of this pixellation problem. I'm surprised that Verizon was so tolerant and helpful when it wasn't even their problem.


----------



## vurbano

TiVoJerry said:


> We just mapped the final batch of units. If you don't have SW yet, you can make a connection to get it now. Otherwise it will download automatically on your next regular service connection.


Came home from work and it was downloaded. Reset the units and now both are updated. I checked one channel, USA Ch50 an SD channel. It was the first one I saw when I got FIOS and it was macroblocking like crazy before the update. All of SD channels were unstable but since I only watch HD on the tivoHD's it didnt matter. Now with 11.0.d it looks great and very stable. I suspect it has fixed all of the SD channels. On the HD channels there were only occasional signs of a problem so it will take longer to evaluate them.:up::up::up:


----------



## bkdtv

almahix said:


> I'll be watching those numbers closely for a while, hopefully we've all seen the last of this pixellation problem. I'm surprised that Verizon was so tolerant and helpful when it wasn't even their problem.


If a signal is out of spec, or sometimes differs from the spec used by cable companies, does that make it TiVo's fault? I agree it was TiVo's responsibility to fix, but I don't think we know enough to assign the blame to TiVo. Many (but not all) CableCard TVs still exhibit the same problem, as do the CableCard tuners for Vista Media Center PCs.

I do appreciate that TiVo (and its partners) spent the time to create a workaround. It's just unfortunate that it didn't happen sooner.


----------



## vurbano

Well by fixing it they have really opened up another market (Fios) for the tivo unit IMO. The SD channels were unwatchable here before the fix and I was flat out lied to by my installer. "Oh our signal levels don't get that high"


----------



## Alcatraz

almahix said:


> Thanks to everyone for the information and the regular updates. The guy I spoke to at Tivo about this recently was full of BS with regard to how the updates were to be rolled out by 'region'. Seems more like random vs geography.


It seems like there are always a few agents who like to either make up stories about various subjects they know little about, or give an answer just to sound like they know something. I don't know why he didn't just admit "I'm not sure how that works but I'm sure you'll get it very soon."



almahix said:


> I'm surprised that Verizon was so tolerant and helpful when it wasn't even their problem.


What makes you draw that conclusion? IIRC {i.e. the following statement could be wrong}, I thought I'd read  that Tivo was working with Fios in a joint venture to figure this thing out. If so, I don't think anyone here is in a position to state for sure what the cause was.

Like many here, I'd be curious to know the answer but I also know that a detailed explanation is unlikely. I doubt either company will want to point fingers now that it is resolved.....or maybe it's the start of a new and bee-you-tiful Verizon & Tivo relationship!!! 
Hey, you never know....


----------



## rocko

Alcatraz said:


> ... maybe it's the start of a new and bee-you-tiful Verizon & Tivo relationship!!!
> Hey, you never know....


Mheh heh. It's funny that the next time they show Casablanca on TCM (230) it will actually be watchable - thanks to 11.0d 

Note: It's been over 24 hours tuned to channel 230 with 0 RS corrected/uncorrected errors. I'll go out on a limb here and say they nailed this one. Woo hoo !


----------



## FiosUser

So is this thread going to be dead now?

Can't wait to get home and perform the connect. Bye-bye attenuators and hello to a good picture once again!


----------



## richsadams

rocko said:


> Note: It's been over 24 hours tuned to channel 230 with 0 RS corrected/uncorrected errors. I'll go out on a limb here and say they nailed this one. Woo hoo !


Okay, I was doubtful when I read your earlier post...but you're right. Watching TiVo 24 hours a day is really a bit much.  Hope that new job at TiVo comes your way soon!


----------



## dvdguru

I have TWC (not Fios) and have been having the same problems as the fios people. I'm a new tivo customer (bought the 1tb hd tivo) in april and have had the pixellation/stuttering/sound dropout problems the whole time. TWC came out and removed the house amp and it didn't help
without still using the attenuation.

I got the bag of attenuators and have tried a thousand different db combinations. It helped some but I still had audio dropouts, recordings that would speed up roughly 20 seconds and then start to play, pixellation, etc.

I got the update this morning and removed the attenuators and all seems to be good so far. No droupouts or anything, just a steady feed from the cable company. Now, this is live tv but I'm going to be watching recorded material over the weekend but so far this update ROCKS! I used to have dropouts w/in the first few seconds of playing recorded programs and I just checked and that problem is gone too.

Thanks to tivo for the update as 2 weeks ago I was ready to call them and swap out my brand new tivo. I read about the update on this site and thought "well, I guess I can tolerate this thing for a few more weeks and see how the update goes". So far I'm extremely happy I waited.

This update so far has me as a new customer from thinking "I believe I just wasted a thousand dollars on this thing" to "ok, this is what I was expecting performance-wise when I bought this Tivo."

Thank you Tivo for fixing this. I don't care whose fault it was just that it was fixed


----------



## FiosUser

I found 11.d waiting for me when I got home. 

My Tivo is now naked of extra screw-ons! The picture is a lot better too (on USA HD like everyone is saying. Also my Discovery HD now isn't pixelated anymore.)


----------



## richsadams

Per my earlier post we received v11.0d on the 14th. All looked good until tonight when we were watching Burn Notice on USAHD (which had previously shown macroblocking/pixelization w/high RS Uncorrected errors). During the opening of the show one scene cross-fade showed some serious problems. The rest of the show was fine. I checked the diagnostics later and the channel showed zero RS Corrected and Uncorrected errors, but that was after the show had already aired.

Here's a link to a brief YouTube clip showing the problem in normal and slo-mo.






Just curious if anyone else had recorded it and noted the same thing. If so I can attribute it to the program and not TiVo. It doesn't show up as poorly in the YouTube video but the artifacts are pretty bad when you actually watch it. The scene just prior to the breakup (two yachts on the water) was in stop motion (intentional I believe) and my gut tells me it was a program/broadcast issue but just wanted confirmation if others had seen the same thing.

FWIW although I think USAHD's PQ has improved since v11.0d, the quality of this particular recording didn't seem any better and in fact not as good as some others.


----------



## ehagberg

richsadams said:


> Just curious if anyone else had recorded it and noted the same thing. If so I can attribute it to the program and not TiVo. It doesn't show up as poorly in the YouTube video but the artifacts are pretty bad when you actually watch it. The scene just prior to the breakup (two yachts on the water) was in stop motion (intentional I believe) and my gut tells me it was a program/broadcast issue but just wanted confirmation if others had seen the same thing.


I see the same thing in my recording. Looks to me like it was an intentional fade effect and nothing actually wrong.


----------



## richsadams

ehagberg said:


> I see the same thing in my recording. Looks to me like it was an intentional fade effect and nothing actually wrong.


Glad to hear that. If it was a "creative" cross-fade it was terrible. The first part worked, but then the picture broke up...might have been intentional but it didn't work IMO. What lousy timing for us. 

Thanks for checking! :up:


----------



## leeherman

I received the latest software update on both my HD and S3. 

The HD was having some serious problems on certain channels, but as of last night I see no pixelization and no errors, corrected or uncorrected.

Great job Tivo!

Thanks!

LH


----------



## dlfl

richsadams said:


> Glad to hear that. If it was a "creative" cross-fade it was terrible. The first part worked, but then the picture broke up...might have been intentional but it didn't work IMO. What lousy timing for us.
> 
> Thanks for checking! :up:


You FIOS people live in a strange pampered world! (Now that you have 11.0d)  If TWC customers with Tuning Adapters posted every time we saw a little glitch like that, the forum would be flooded.

(See the official Time Warner Cable thread and the Time Warner Cable Tuning Adapter thread for examples.)

Oh well, we're happy for you! (We want FIOS! We want FIOS!)

BTW, how much does FIOS cost you, including cable card(s)? I shouldn't ask because the answer will probably just make me feel worse because it's less than what I'm paying for TWC. Then there's the copy protection thing.....


----------



## rocko

richsadams said:


> Glad to hear that. If it was a "creative" cross-fade it was terrible. The first part worked, but then the picture broke up...might have been intentional but it didn't work IMO. What lousy timing for us.
> 
> Thanks for checking! :up:


And I thought *I *was watching too much TV


----------



## rocko

dlfl said:


> ...
> 
> BTW, how much does FIOS cost you, including cable card(s)? I shouldn't ask because the answer will probably just make me feel worse because it's less than what I'm paying for TWC. Then there's the copy protection thing.....


It depends on the package. Triple Freedom includes landline telephone, Internet and TV. Here's my bill:


----------



## ah30k

On that shown bill, I had the $99 triple play package with Premier but my contract recently expired and I learned the hard way that they bump you to a'la'carte pricing which is $150 rather than the bundle price of $99.

Also, they don't offer Premier anymore so you need to go down to basic for $99 bundle (only about 7 HD channels) or move up to extreme for $120 bundle.

Moving from the now extinct Premier @ $99 to the Extreme @ $120 got me more HD channels but I don't know if it is worth the extra $20/month over Premier. Doesn't really matter though since Premier is extinct. The Basic $99 was a non-starter for me since the HD is sooo limited.

Bottom line now is that your FIOS choices are
Basic Triple Play with about 7 HD channels = $99
Extremen Triple Play with a full slate of HD = $120
Any Movie or sports packages = extra (although the Extreme seems to have many HD sports already)
CableCards = $3.99 each (or $2.99 if grandfathered in)
Digital Adapters (for S2s) = $3.99 each I think (or free if grandfathered in)


----------



## BobCamp1

bkdtv said:


> If a signal is out of spec, or sometimes differs from the spec used by cable companies, does that make it TiVo's fault?


Yes, it does. Tivo is supposed to ask Verizon if there is anything special about their signal BEFORE they design the box or claim FIOS compatibility with an existing box. After all, Verizon isn't part of CableLabs and yet the Tivo was designed to work only with CableLabs networks. I think it's reasonable to assume there could there be some problems.

I am glad it finally works. I may switch from DirecTV to FIOS next year as well as upgrade to HD, and it would be nice to get another Tivo.


----------



## rocko

ah30k said:


> On that shown bill, I had the $99 triple play package with Premier but my contract recently expired and I learned the hard way that they bump you to a'la'carte pricing which is $150 rather than the bundle price of $99.
> 
> Also, they don't offer Premier anymore so you need to go down to basic for $99 bundle (only about 7 HD channels) or move up to extreme for $120 bundle.
> 
> Moving from the now extinct Premier @ $99 to the Extreme @ $120 got me more HD channels but I don't know if it is worth the extra $20/month over Premier. Doesn't really matter though since Premier is extinct. The Basic $99 was a non-starter for me since the HD is sooo limited.
> 
> Bottom line now is that your FIOS choices are
> Basic Triple Play with about 7 HD channels = $99
> Extremen Triple Play with a full slate of HD = $120
> Any Movie or sports packages = extra (although the Extreme seems to have many HD sports already)
> CableCards = $3.99 each (or $2.99 if grandfathered in)
> Digital Adapters (for S2s) = $3.99 each I think (or free if grandfathered in)


Here's what I found when I looked into changing my existing plan. These numbers look different than the ones you quoted. You might try going online to your Verizon account to see what you come up with ?

One thing I did notice was the $99 plan shows 15/5 Internet instead of my current 20/5.


----------



## dlfl

Is the phone service in these bundles traditional copper wired or also via fiber?


----------



## rocko

dlfl said:


> Is the phone service in these bundles traditional copper wired or also via fiber?


Fiber to the ONT (termination on premises) - then POTS inside the house. Twisted pair from the street is replaced by fiber.


----------



## richsadams

rocko said:


> It depends on the package. Triple Freedom includes landline telephone, Internet and TV. Here's my bill:


Ours is pretty close to that as well. We have another movie package and Setanta Sports channel (+$14.94/mo.).

The total is about $50 less per month than we were paying Comcast plus we have more premium channels as well as a lot more HD channels to choose from. The price is locked for two-years and they also gave us a $150 Visa card for signing up. I think you can get a free Netbook now (glad they offered cash at the time as we're more-or-less all Mac here). Costs a bundle to get out of the contract though so I was sweating a few bullets about switching with the PQ thing, but it all turned out just fine. :up:

EDIT: Forgot to add that we have 20/5 broadband.


----------



## ah30k

rocko said:


> Here's what I found when I looked into changing my existing plan. These numbers look different than the ones you quoted. You might try going online to your Verizon account to see what you come up with ?
> 
> One thing I did notice was the $99 plan shows 15/5 Internet instead of my current 20/5.


Here are the ones that show up for me

(the $99 non-extreme package does not seem to be showing now but it did yestersay ?)


----------



## ah30k

We're getting way off topic, but... I guess pricing depends on which franchise you are in.


----------



## bkdtv

New York and New Jersey customers generally pay less. NYC customers get 35/15 service for the same price as 15/5 service in many areas.


----------



## dmeleedy

Just to followup on my earlier frustrated post.
I got the Tivo updated software and after that things were
much much better. But I still noticed a slight amount
of pixellation, so I removed the attenuator that was on the line
(20db). After that the signal strength went from 60ish, to 100.
The SNR is at 36->37 db. I haven't seen any RS Uncorrected
or even Corrected errors.

Thanks Jerry, and the folks at Tivo.


----------



## modular46

I finally got 11.0D myself and I've removed all attenuation as well and the picture looks great. No pixelation. Great job Tivo for fixing this issue.


Dave


----------



## y8s

I have 11.0d and my comedy central HD (channel 690 / 855000 KHz) is all over the place signal wise. I was getting "searching for signal" messages popping up so I removed all but the Verizon installed attenuator and the SNR went up a little but the errors (both) still kept increasing. I removed the last attenuator and Corrected errors still increase at a regular rate with the RS Uncorrected increasing occasionally (every few minutes it'll jump up). Strength bounces between 68 and 75 and SNR is at 33 or 32.

Other tuner is on channel 664 (Food HD) 597 MHz and 100 strength / 37-38db and seems stable.

oh
wait

strength dropped down to 50 and uncorrected errors started increasing as I was typing. then signal, SNR and RS all went to "-" for a moment. 

Not good..


----------



## Ziggy86

So has this issue been resolved for most people? I have not seen a post here for about a week.


----------



## substance12

Ziggy86 said:


> So has this issue been resolved for most people? I have not seen a post here for about a week.


there were 2 channels in particular that were problematic for me. I haven't watched 1 of them too much but the other I have watched an average amount. verdict: problem solved. I took off an ugly mess of attenuators and splitters. My signal is 100% str and 38snr. I wanted to wait a few weeks before posting. will post back again in a few weeks if things go negative.


----------



## DeWitt

Ziggy86 said:


> So has this issue been resolved for most people? I have not seen a post here for about a week.


Mine has been perfect. I removed all my attenuation. Signal strength is usually at or near 100 and I see 0 uncorrected 0 uncorrected errors even on what where the worst channels.

Not only is the picture perfect (Pun intended...) but I have not had a spontaneous reboot since 11.0d installed. It used to be a fairly common occurrence on the problem channels.


----------



## FiosUser

Case closed for me.


----------



## evlg

I didn't have too many problems with pixelation, but since 11.0d came out my RS Uncorrected is 0 every time i look at it.

I do see some errors in channels (in particular, National Geographic channel this Sunday morning). The RS Uncorrected was still 0, leading me to believe the problems were in the head end or somewhere further upstream. But the video and audio glitches were quite annoying.


----------



## Ziggy86

I have Time Warner cable here in NY and I see pixellation from time to time, testerday was very bad but only on HBO HD channels and maybe because we were having bas thunderstorms.

Here is my question, when I see pixelation I go immediately to the diagnostics screen and I see NO error, should I not see errors in diagnostics if there is pixellation?

Steven


----------



## bkdtv

Ziggy86 said:


> I have Time Warner cable here in NY and I see pixellation from time to time, testerday was very bad but only on HBO HD channels and maybe because we were having bas thunderstorms.
> 
> Here is my question, when I see pixelation I go immediately to the diagnostics screen and I see NO error, should I not see errors in diagnostics if there is pixellation?


The RS Uncorrected errors always increment, regardless of whether you are on the DVR Diagnostics screen. They error count only resets when (a) you change channels, (b) when a recording starts, and (c) when a recording ends.

HBOHD is highly compressed so it tends to exhibit compression artifacts during movement and scene transitions. This has nothing to do with the signal or the TiVo.


----------



## Ziggy86

So most people have this issue with HBO HD? Same issue with HBO HD on FiOS?


----------



## bkdtv

Ziggy86 said:


> So most people have this issue with HBO HD? Same issue with HBO HD on FiOS?


The HBO and Cinemax channels are highly compressed everywhere. HBO East and West should look a little better on FiOS, but the other HBO feeds (converted from 6Mbps MPEG-4) are probably comparable to what you are accustomed to with Time Warner.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

bkdtv said:


> The HBO and Cinemax channels are highly compressed everywhere. HBO East and West should look a little better on FiOS, but the other HBO feeds (converted from 6Mbps MPEG-4) are probably comparable to what you are accustomed to with Time Warner.


Why are the East and West coast feeds different from the rest of the country? Or are you saying that the main HBOHD feed is less compressed than the HBO "sub- channels"? Am I making any sense???


----------



## wmcbrine

He's saying that the main channels are sent from HBO in MPEG-2, while the others (HBO2, HBO Comedy, etc.) are sent as MPEG-4, which Verizon then has to reencode to MPEG-2.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

wmcbrine said:


> He's saying that the main channels are sent from HBO in MPEG-2, while the others (HBO2, HBO Comedy, etc.) are sent as MPEG-4, which Verizon then has to reencode to MPEG-2.


Thanks for the explanation! One more question if you have a chance...

Which adversely affects picture quality the most: The re-encoding (codec switch), or the feed being shrunk "(converted from 6Mbps MPEG-4)"?


----------



## wmcbrine

I don't think the premise of the question is quite right. Both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 are lossy, and there's no getting around that. MPEG-4 should, in principle, preserve more of the quality at a lower bitrate, so that 6 Mbps of MPEG-4 is equivalent to some higher rate of MPEG-2 -- you might suppose that to be 12 Mbps, for comparison, but there's no exact equivalent. So, assuming that the main HBO channel is MPEG-2 at 12 Mbps, it might be about the same quality as HBO 2 in MPEG-4 at 6 Mbps. Then, since not all their equipment can handle MPEG-4 yet, Verizon reencodes the MPEG-4 channels to MPEG-2, necessarily resulting in a (small) loss in quality. But that would be just as true if they were reencoding an MPEG-2 channel, or any other source.

In practice, all the HBO channels look pretty good to me, and I haven't noticed the difference between HBO and HBO 2.


----------



## JAB

Anyone else on FiOS experiencing video that gives the impression of missing frames? It's hard to describe. Not pixelation or stuttering, but jerky motion, like frames are being dropped, particularly noticeable during scenes with lots of motion. I'm experiencing this intermittently with programs recorded in HD from major networks. As an example, it was very noticeable for me with the most recent episode of _Fringe_.

I'm using a TiVo S3 with the most recent software, and I'm in the Northern Virginia area.


----------



## aaronwt

I didn't notice anything on fringe. But I also output at the native resolution and use my DVDO EDGE to scale up to 1080P.


----------



## bkdtv

JAB said:


> Anyone else on FiOS experiencing video that gives the impression of missing frames? It's hard to describe. Not pixelation or stuttering, but jerky motion, like frames are being dropped, particularly noticeable during scenes with lots of motion. I'm experiencing this intermittently with programs recorded in HD from major networks. As an example, it was very noticeable for me with the most recent episode of _Fringe_.


I had no trouble with the latest episode of Fringe.

Are you using a 120MHz or 240MHz LCD? If so, you may notice jerky motion with certain display settings. For more information, refer to the AVS owner's thread for your particular display.


----------



## evlg

I have seen dropped frames/stuttering without pixelation ever since 11.0d came out.

My suspicion is that the "fix" for pixellation just converts the problem into a stutter or dropped frame, which is maybe more tolerable.


----------



## bkdtv

evlg said:


> I have seen dropped frames/stuttering without pixelation ever since 11.0d came out.
> 
> My suspicion is that the "fix" for pixellation just converts the problem into a stutter or dropped frame, which is maybe more tolerable.


The "fix" included new tuner improvements to better handle the FiOS signal. That eliminated massive RS Uncorrected errors that caused pixelization. If you aren't seeing RS Uncorrected errors on your DVR Diagnostics screen, then you you should see the signal exactly as delivered. If you're still seeing larger numbers of RS Uncorrected errors (i.e. tens of thousands), then those could cause dropped frames.

Stutter can also be an early indicator of internal or external drive failure; stutter is common on My DVR Expanders that are starting to fail. As mentioned above, various display settings on some popular Samsung, Sony, and Toshiba 120-240MHz LCDs will also cause stutter with certain signals regardless of your box and provider, which you can read more about on the AVS Forum.


----------



## JAB

The TiVo was sending 1080i to a Denon 5308, which uses a Realta to convert to 1080p/60, before delivering the signal to a Sony VPL-VW200. The Sony upconverts to 96 Hz / 120 Hz and refreshes at 192 Hz / 240 Hz.

I don't think this is a settings issue. I normally don't let the Sony process the picture any further, although I've played with Motion Enhancer in an attempt to get rid of the problem. With Motionflow off, the Sony just repeats frames to reach 120 Hz / 240 Hz. And, the only thing I'm permitting the Realta to do is deinterlace and scale.

I too thought that 11.0d might have been simply masking the pixelation by dropping overly pixelated frames. That's certainly what it looks like. I'll take your word that it doesn't.

The effect is 100% reproducible on replay.


----------



## bkdtv

JAB said:


> The TiVo was sending 1080i to a Denon 5308, which uses a Realta to convert to 1080p/60, before delivering the signal to a Sony VPL-VW200. The Sony upconverts to 96 Hz / 120 Hz and refreshes at 192 Hz / 240 Hz.
> 
> I don't think this is a settings issue. I normally don't let the Sony process the picture any further, although I've played with Motion Enhancer in an attempt to get rid of the problem. With Motionflow off, the Sony just repeats frames to reach 120 Hz / 240 Hz. And, the only thing I'm permitting the Realta to do is deinterlace and scale.
> 
> I too thought that 11.0d might have been simply masking the pixelation by dropping overly pixelated frames. That's certainly what it looks like. I'll take your word that it doesn't.
> 
> The effect is 100% reproducible on replay.


If you're still seeing RS Uncorrected errors, then you could have dropped frames. I assume you've tested the TiVo without a My DVR Expander to rule that out as a possible cause.

Have you disabled the Denon's video processing to rule that out as a cause? [Yes, I realize that Realta HQV _should_ provide excellent deinterlace and scaling.]


----------



## JAB

Removing the DVR Expander will be a real PITA. I'd like to exhaust everything else first, especially since I don't think the DVR Expander is the problem. Would you expect a hard disk issue to be 100&#37; reproducible on replay and so intermittent? My past experience has been that such problems were in the signal before it reached the hard disk.

The problem only occurs on some channels some of the time. I don't think I've ever seen it on anything other than a broadcast network, which tends to point the finger at the broadcaster or FiOS, although it could be something like the 11.0d issue.

It did occur to me, as I posted my last message, to completely disable the Realta and let the projector do the deinterlacing. I'll try that. Good suggestion.

I should probably mention that I'm particularly sensitive to these types of issues, so a significant percentage of other people watching the same material probably wouldn't notice it, especially if they were viewing it on a smaller screen.


----------



## bicker

The problem is that exhausting everything else first means trying your local cable company next, to see if you have the same problem. If you do, then you are back to it being most likely a DVR Expander problem (or perhaps a hard drive problem, I suppose). It seems to me that divorcing the DVR Expander is a *less* draconian test scenario than switching providers would be.


----------



## bkdtv

If you see this issue primarily (or only) on broadcast networks, you might connect a set-top antenna to the TiVo to compare feeds. Verizon FiOS passes local networks as is, so if you see the same issue on a secondary source, that would rule out a signal problem as the cause.

If you're within 15 miles of the broadcast networks, you might try small set-top antenna like this ($11.99).


----------



## JAB

bicker said:


> The problem is that exhausting everything else first means trying your local cable company next, to see if you have the same problem.


Perhaps "everything" is too extreme a statement. How about everything less inconvenient first? I wouldn't certainly divorce the DVR Expander before switching providers. However, there are a number of things that can be done short of switching providers.



bkdtv said:


> If you see this issue primarily (or only) on broadcast networks, you might connect a set-top antenna to the TiVo to compare feeds. Verizon FiOS passes local networks as is, so if you see the same issue on a secondary source, that would rule out a signal problem as the cause.


I have a nice rooftop antenna with amplifier that _often_ does a good job of pulling in signals, although I haven't used it since getting FiOS. The only reason I haven't tried the antenna yet is the problem is so intermittent, that I'm not really in a position to record every show twice, from two different sources. However, that is another excellent suggestion, so I'll put it in the queue. I really appreciate your insights on this.


----------



## JAB

OK. First, I'm a moron. _Fringe_ is broadcast in 720p, which means the S3 was converting 720p to 1080i before the Realta ever saw the signal. The very first thing to try would be native output from the TiVo. Unfortunately, the episode in question was deleted, so I'm at the mercy of the problem surfacing again for more diagnostics.


----------



## richsadams

JAB said:


> Unfortunately, the episode in question was deleted, so I'm at the mercy of the problem surfacing again for more diagnostics.


It's not in the Recently Deleted folder?


----------



## evlg

bkdtv said:


> The "fix" included new tuner improvements to better handle the FiOS signal. That eliminated massive RS Uncorrected errors that caused pixelization. If you aren't seeing RS Uncorrected errors on your DVR Diagnostics screen, then you you should see the signal exactly as delivered. If you're still seeing larger numbers of RS Uncorrected errors (i.e. tens of thousands), then those could cause dropped frames.
> 
> Stutter can also be an early indicator of internal or external drive failure; stutter is common on My DVR Expanders that are starting to fail. As mentioned above, various display settings on some popular Samsung, Sony, and Toshiba 120-240MHz LCDs will also cause stutter with certain signals regardless of your box and provider, which you can read more about on the AVS Forum.


When I see the problem RS Uncorrected Errors is reported as 0.

I never noticed this problem before 11.0d, and it started happening as soon as I received 11.0d

I don't have any fancy 120hz or 240hz equipment and I certainly haven't modified any settings.

It really feels like to me they just tweaked the tuner to stop reported RS Uncorrected errors in this instance, and drop the frame to "fix" the pixellation issue. I.e. hide the symptom if they couldn't fix the problem.

Does anyone remember the original Quake 1 QTest? When the framerate got low, a turtle icon appeared. They implemented some optimizations after that, but the biggest change they made was the remove the turtle icon. When the final version came out everyone said "hey no more turtle!" and it sure felt faster.


----------



## JAB

richsadams said:


> It's not in the Recently Deleted folder?


Nope. First thing I checked.


----------



## Dmon4u

I always wonder about the level of frustration with FiOS and TiVo HD. Mainly because more often than not I read about people and their FiOS DVR: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23128345-Had-enough


----------



## richsadams

Dmon4u said:


> I always wonder about the level of frustration with FiOS and TiVo HD. Mainly because more often than not I read about people and their FiOS DVR: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23128345-Had-enough


Agreed. Ours has been almost flawless since our install almost six months ago (even before v11.0d). Just wish we'd made the switch sooner.


----------



## Floridaman

bkdtv said:


> I have FiOS and received the 11.0d update yesterday.
> 
> I was previously able to eliminate 99+% of all pixelization with 16+dB attenuation. Without this attenuation, most channels exhibited massive pixelization and some channels would not reliably tune.
> 
> I did not notice any problems post-install. To test potential improvement with this release, I removed my attenuation this afternoon. To my surprise, I do not see any pixelization on any channel. I checked all my favorite channels for RS Uncorrected errors, and saw none except for occasional errors in the first second or so after tuning a channel. After the first second, there were no further RS Uncorrected errors. Channels that previously required some attenuation to tune...can now be tuned without attenuation and without pixelization.
> 
> *Verdict:* At least for me, the 11.0d update eliminates the need for attenuation. Pixelization is nowhere to be seen. :up::up::up:


I have the Tivo HD XL model dvr. I am using it with Fios and it has the current software 11.0D My signal strength is 100% on all channels and I subscribe to every channel. The SNR reading is 37 on all of the channels. I haven't had any issues with pixellation but just in the past few days have noticed audio drop outs. The sound will cut out for a second then it is fine for a few minutes and then does the same thing again. Tivo is telling me that the signal is way too strong and needs to be adjusted with an attenuator. They also believe this will take care of the audio issue. I thought the 11.0D software addressed these issues. Is the audio cutting out a problem related to SNR or is there a problem with the Tivo unit itself? Should I get an attenuator and if so what db rating should I get?

Thanks


----------



## jayhajj

Floridaman said:


> I have the Tivo HD XL model dvr. I am using it with Fios and it has the current software 11.0D My signal strength is 100% on all channels and I subscribe to every channel. The SNR reading is 37 on all of the channels. I haven't had any issues with pixellation but just in the past few days have noticed audio drop outs. The sound will cut out for a second then it is fine for a few minutes and then does the same thing again. Tivo is telling me that the signal is way too strong and needs to be adjusted with an attenuator...
> Thanks


 I have a Premiere with FiOS service and was getting 91% signal strength and 37db SNR. My TiVo was intermittently rebooting and hanging in the menu. When I contacted TiVo for support, the representative said it was because my signal was too high that and the extra processing power required to run the HD interface was too much for the TiVo. He referred me to this thread. Sounds like "Get attenuators" is right up on their list after "Pull the power cord". If this is so common, TiVo should stock them and provide for free or shipping costs only or partner with a company to provide a variety pack at a good discount.

I have three other Premieres that had been running the old menu with no problems but when I enabled HD menus on one, it hung too. When I disabled HD interface on the main TiVo for 4 days, it didn't have problems any longer either.

These Premieres replaced HDs that had functioned for 9mos with no problems.

I ordered one each of 3db, 6db, 8db, 10db & 12db attenuators from
http://www.cableandwireshop.com/cable_tv_satellite_in_line_attenuator_fam-3_to_20_db_pad.html
for $9.75 plus $3.39 USPS First-Class Mail Parcel shipping.
Ordered on Saturday and received them Wednesday. Chose these vs smarthome to have more flexibility with smalled sizes since I didn't expect to be using the 20db ones they included in their variety pack. With these you get a lot more specific in the db amount you use.

I added an 8db & 3db to drop the readings to 50% signal strength and 31db SNR. I guess the db ratings aren't an exact science so don't only order "X"db if you need to drop your SNR by "X". Are their any negative consequences to a 50% signal strength?

I'll update later once I confirm if the TiVo can run for a few days without a reboot or hang.

-Jay


----------



## DeWitt

The reboot and hang issues in the premeire using HD menu's are well known and documented. Rumor is Tivo will have a fix soon. The Fios signal strength should not be an issue. 

On my HD I removed all my attenuation after the software fix.

My new Premiere XL runs very happily in SD mode with signal strenght in the high 90's without any issue on Fios. I have been beating it up with channels that caused issues on the HD and have not yet had an audio/video glitch or freeze/reboot.


----------



## richsadams

Agreed, the FIOS signal shouldn't be a problem at all. We have FIOS and our Premiere XL is doing fine...although the HDUI is pretty slow. Signal strength is 94&#37; - 97% and SNR is 37 - 38 on both tuners. 

Have a look at your RS Corrected and Uncorrected errors. The best experiment is to watch the 'offending' channel(s) live. As you start, go into DVR Diags and check the RS Uncorrected and Corrected counts. As you watch and see events, go back into DVR Diags and recheck the RS counts. Post back what you see. The RS Uncorrected counter counts how many times the demodulator was unable to recover any bit errors in the data in a packet. These events will likely result in macroblocking and at worst can cause the unit to freeze or reboot. 

Not saying that attenuation might not fix things, but odds are it won't make much or any difference. An update may resolve things or it could be something else such as a hard drive.

Let us know how it goes.


----------



## bkdtv

jayhajj said:


> I have a Premiere with FiOS service and was getting 91% signal strength and 37db SNR. My TiVo was intermittently rebooting and hanging in the menu.


As noted above, there are known stability issues with the HDUI's TiVo Central. For now, the *only* solution is to switch to the "classic" SD interface under Settings -> Display.

TiVo says that it will have a fix for the HDUI instability later this month.


----------



## jayhajj

DeWitt said:


> The reboot and hang issues in the premeire using HD menu's are well known and documented. Rumor is Tivo will have a fix soon. The Fios signal strength should not be an issue.





richsadams said:


> Agreed, the FIOS signal shouldn't be a problem at all. We have FIOS and our Premiere XL is doing fine...although the HDUI is pretty slow. Signal strength is 94% - 97% and SNR is 37 - 38 on both tuners.
> 
> Have a look at your RS Corrected and Uncorrected errors...


 Well after three hours with the attenuators, the HD menu hung. I have been assuming the box was wedged but I had a recording going this time and it was only missing the time from when I pulled power, so it appears the HD menu is all that is hanging. I have never gotten any RS errors of either kind and the TiVo rep was informed of this.

I called TiVo support to get additional assistance and the new representative said right away that this is a HD menu issue and attenuators were not needed and I could remove them. I complained that the previous rep had me waste money and wanted some credit or discount to use at the TiVo store, maybe for a $10 shirt or something. He put me on hold for a minute and came back, oh _yes_, I did need the attenuators. 

TiVo had no ETA on the fix and I complained that if I wanted the classic interface, I would have stuck with my four HDs! I also mentioned my 30 guarantee and what if I wait 2 months and their is no fix. He noted on my account, so if the fix isn't soon, I can return them.

I can't believe a major bug such as this slipped by QA. They mush have really rushed this out. Why? 

-Jay


----------



## richsadams

jayhajj said:


> I have never gotten any RS errors of either kind and the TiVo rep was informed of this.


Really? Zero errors? With FIOS? That is very unusual by itself...but really neither here nor there I suppose.

Historically TiVo has always been able to address issues like this and there's no reason to think that they won't this time. It's never soon enough but I'm pretty certain they will take care of it...hopefully sooner than later because it is quite frustrating at the moment.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

richsadams said:


> Really? Zero errors? With FIOS? That is very unusual by itself...but really neither here nor there I suppose.


My experience with errors on FiOS is very channel dependent. E.g. right now channel 502 KATU, frequency 513 MHz, has no RS corrected or uncorrected. But channel 780 Disney, frequency 327 MHz, has a few RS uncorrected and many many corrected.

Detailed info:
channel 502, 37 dB, 0 uncorrrected, 0 corrected, 475 seconds.
channel 780, 34 dB, 13 uncorrected, 1,390,000 corrected, 490 seconds.

The one with errors is national, the one without is local. Which probably means the two blocks of channels are being combined by Verizon locally. But even on the channel with reported errors, they occur infrequently enough that as a "casual" viewer I haven't noticed them in the program itself.

I haven't experimented with adding attenuators or diplexers, but I may try them just to see if I can get the error count to decrease.


----------



## richsadams

Phantom Gremlin said:


> My experience with errors on FiOS is very channel dependent.


My experience as well. I haven't seen any issues (macroblocking, etc.) for a long time. As long as it behaves I don't think I'll try any tweaks (if it ain't broke..etc. - Sorry MPSAN  ).


----------



## chriseng

Anyone having this issue recently? These four channels have been exhibiting the macroblocking problem described in this thread for the past few days. Previously they worked fine. I don't have any attenuators, but I never needed them before. The diagnostics screen shows millions of RS Uncorrected after just a few minutes. SNR jumps from low 30s to single digits to teens, it's all over the place. Sometimes the Tivo even pops up the message saying it's trying to tune in the cable source. Any ideas? No other channels are affected as far as I can tell, just these (unfortunately, three of my kids' favorite shows are on 256, Nick Jr.).


----------



## richsadams

I had a few issues the other day...some channels were unwatchable. I ended up rebooting (pulled the plug...waited 10 seconds and plugged it back in) and everything was fine. No idea what happened.


----------



## MPSAN

richsadams said:


> I had a few issues the other day...some channels were unwatchable. I ended up rebooting (pulled the plug...waited 10 seconds and plugged it back in) and everything was fine. No idea what happened.


Yeah, if it ain't broke...

Anyway, mine seems to be OK, but I do see a little noise, or breakup, once in a while on a lot of stations. Audio is fine, and it is just for a few lines of video for a second or so and even then it is not a full line from left to right.


----------



## chriseng

Yeah neither soft reset or hard reset fixed the problem. I'm skeptical that attenuation is needed since I've had this FioS/TiVo combination for months now and never had picture problems. But that's probably the next thing to try. I'm sure Verizon won't be able to help.

EDITED to add: Crap, it's a lot more channels than I thought. I just flipped through all of them. It seems to be certain frequencies:

Chan Freq

77 609k
107 609k

122 627k
123 627k
125 627k
132 627k
161 627k
163 627k
168 627k
189 627k
198 627k
259 627k

187 603k
213 603k
214 603k
218 603k
219 603k
222 603k
253 603k
254 603k
255 603k
256 603k
273 603k

641 591k
681 591k

664 597k
665 597k


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## Phantom Gremlin

chriseng said:


> Anyone having this issue recently? These four channels have been exhibiting the macroblocking problem described in this thread for the past few days. Previously they worked fine.


AVSForum.com has local HDTV threads.

Perhaps you will find some kindred spirits to commiserate with, or at least to confirm that others in your local area are seeing the same problems.


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## caughey

Don't be too sure that Verizon won't be able to help, I've found them to be competent.

Also, check your coax cables and connections. I've only had pixelation problems with a specific frequency range of channels twice. Once it was fixed by replacing a cheap splitter, and once just by tightening a connection that had worked loose.

Good luck!


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## richsadams

And someone mentioned earlier that it turned out to be their cell phone that was wrecking havoc? Once they turned it off things were good? There are certainly a lot of possibilities. With that many problematic channels I agree it's probably part of the cable system, a connector or possibly a failing cable card. I'd do some inspections of the various parts and pieces around the house...they don't last forever. If that doesn't turn up anything a call to VZ is in order IMHO.


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## chriseng

Fixed! In case anyone was curious:

The technician they sent out had never seen this problem before, so I had to suggest the debugging steps once we got past "the signal is strong" -- swapping out cablecard, swapping out coax, swapping in STB for TiVO, etc. -- but eventually the culprit turned out to be the ONT. Naturally the last thing we tried.


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## richsadams

chriseng said:


> Fixed! In case anyone was curious:
> 
> The technician they sent out had never seen this problem before, so I had to suggest the debugging steps once we got past "the signal is strong" -- swapping out cablecard, swapping out coax, swapping in STB for TiVO, etc. -- but eventually the culprit turned out to be the ONT. Naturally the last thing we tried.


The ONT...who would'a thunk? Glad things are back to normal again. Enjoy!


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## Ovit311

Old Tivo user but new to FIOS. Had the installer put an attenuator on the Tivo just in case any pixelation problems. So far so good...


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## richsadams

Ovit311 said:


> Old Tivo user but new to FIOS. Had the installer put an attenuator on the Tivo just in case any pixelation problems. So far so good...


Try removing it and see how things go...odds are you won't see any problems w/o it either. The need for attenuators went away over a year ago when VZ began dialing their signal strength back to reasonable levels.


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## MatthewH12

Has anyone ever heard of a TivoHD with Fios using an MCard having an SNR of 37-38 on Tuner 0 with no pixelization, and a SNR of 25 on Tuner 1 with lots of macro-blocking, pixelization and channel tuning issues? Why does it only affect one tuner and not the other?


----------



## wmcbrine

MatthewH12 said:


> Has anyone ever heard of a TivoHD with Fios using an MCard having an SNR of 37-38 on Tuner 0 with no pixelization, and a SNR of 25 on Tuner 1 with lots of macro-blocking, pixelization and channel tuning issues? Why does it only affect one tuner and not the other?


Are they tuned to the same channel? If not, that's pretty normal, yeah. The channels don't have a consistent signal level; most of them are within spec, most of the time, but sometimes some of them go out, while others are fine.

If they _are_ tuned to the same channel, then it sounds like a problem with the TiVo.


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## MatthewH12

wmcbrine said:


> Are they tuned to the same channel? If not, that's pretty normal, yeah. The channels don't have a consistent signal level; most of them are within spec, most of the time, but sometimes some of them go out, while others are fine.
> 
> If they _are_ tuned to the same channel, then it sounds like a problem with the TiVo.


It affects tuner 1 (whose snr is ~27)mno matter what channel its on, and does NOT affect tuner 0 (whose SNR is ~37-38), no matter what channel it is on. Tuner 1's signal is so low that it won't pull in a picture, yet tuner 0 will just fine. Already spoke to TiVo, they said it's probably the cable system, but why would it only affect one tuner? Also, my tivo upstairs (Same model, etc), doesn't have an issue with either tuner, and both SNR's on it are 37-38 constant.

It's weird =\.


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## wmcbrine

MatthewH12 said:


> Already spoke to TiVo, they said it's probably the cable system, but why would it only affect one tuner?


It wouldn't, and it's pretty absurd for them to say that. Call back until you get someone competent. Your TiVo is defective, end of story.


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## MatthewH12

wmcbrine said:


> It wouldn't, and it's pretty absurd for them to say that. Call back until you get someone competent. Your TiVo is defective, end of story.


If that's true, it would make the 2nd bad tivo we've gotten, the first one had a bad cable card slot.

Tivo's sending out another box, 3rd times the charm right?


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## PooperScooper

Not much action here lately but after reading this thread I thought I had a solution with pixelization but the SNR on the affected channels is not "high". I just got FIOS a couple days ago (triple play with ultimate HD) and Showtime HD, SpikeHD and MGMHD all have pixelization. And each channel has an SNR of 30 (29 sometimes on Sho) and RS uncorrected counts always climbing. Channels that work fine have an SNR of 32 and 0 RS errors.

The tech installed 2 splitters: ONT -> splitter 1 ( Network, 2nd splitter) and splitter 2 with 3 outputs, one is the TivoHD. I tried ONT->TivoHD and nothing changed. The same TivoHD connection worked fine with Comcast using the same splitter.

I could try swapping the TivoHD coax, I guess. Is there some sort of signal "control" on the ONT a tech could dial up a tad? Do I need a signal booster?

larry


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## shamilian

Check your signal level. ( on the DVR Diag screen ). It is likely at 100% add attenuators until the level is below 100% and the SNR is below 35db.

You may also add a low-pass filter from FIOS tech. Their moca signal may affect the tuner in the Tivo.


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## PooperScooper

shamilian said:


> Check your signal level. ( on the DVR Diag screen ). It is likely at 100% add attenuators until the level is below 100% and the SNR is below 35db.
> 
> You may also add a low-pass filter from FIOS tech. Their moca signal may affect the tuner in the Tivo.


 Thanks for the reply. The signal level for the affected channels is at 45-50% depending whether the SNR is 29 or 30.

I'm going to replace the cable run to the Tivo with RG6 (can't tell it the current cable is RG6 or not, there's no markings and). After that and still no solution I'll contact Verizon.

larry


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## ah30k

This thread is very old about a problem that has since been fixed in software.

There were many many people experiencing serious problems and they were all fixed with a sw update. To my knowledge, no one is using attenuators any more.

I suggest you start a new thread if you are having problems.


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## shamilian

PooperScooper said:


> Thanks for the reply. The signal level for the affected channels is at 45-50% depending whether the SNR is 29 or 30.
> 
> I'm going to replace the cable run to the Tivo with RG6 (can't tell it the current cable is RG6 or not, there's no markings and). After that and still no solution I'll contact Verizon.
> 
> larry


Your signal level is too low should be at least 70%. If it is about these levels for all channels then you need to boost the signal level/remove splitters. If it is only a few channels then it could be a bad connector.


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## barrett14

Can a high signal strength also cause problems with your internet connection as well? I found out I am having this issue with my new Roamio, and wondering if it can explain my intermittent internet connection. (Charter has been unable to fix it)


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## whm

I am having an issue with pixelation on my Premiere XL. The picture will will get blocky or even "shimmery" if you can imagine that. The sound will stutter in and out. During this, sometimes the pixlated pitcture will freeze for a few seconds.

I purchased the first box in 2010 and last April/May (after 2.5 years in service) the picture started to pixelate intermittently. At first very minor glitches that were short and barely annoying, but after about a month the pixalation episodes began to occur several times per hour and would last 30 - 60 seconds. I called tech support and they said it was that my hard drive was failing. I read about the kickstart codes somewhere here and ran the hard drive test. It did fail one of the tests, but also was still running after 2 days. I finally unplugged and tried to reboot the box, but it was stuck in an endless "welcome" screen loop. I had purchased an extended warranty and used that to replace the failed box. TiVo, as expected, sent me a refurbished unit in early June.

This box has been in service for a little more than 100 days. There were a few very minor glitches in the picture during the first 90 days, (nothing alarming) but just after 90 days the "pixelation episodes" started again with this box. They have gotten just as bad as the last box, lasting about 30- 90 seconds and occurring about 2-4 times an hour.

I called tech support at TiVo to try and find out if there might be ANY other reason for this to occur besides a bad hard drive. They had me look at the diagnostics. They were as follows:

Tuner 0: SS=67; SNR=33 dB; RS Corrected=0; RS Uncorrected=0
Tuner 1: SS=85; SNR=36 dB; RS Corrected=0; RS Uncorrected=0

They told me the SNR on tuner 1 was a bit high (I never thought a high SNR was a bad thing), and suggested I try replacing the cable card. I did that last Saturday. Now I&#8217;m getting readings of signal strength at about 67 - 70 on both tuners and SNRs of about 33-34 and RS all zeros on both tuners, but yet the pixelation is still occurring. 

There is a splitter to the cable modem that I have not tried replacing yet but will. Does this sound like a bad hard drive or something else? I have another extended warranty on this box, but no sense replacing the box again if it&#8217;s something external to the box. Just seems odd that when I replaced the box back in June, it seemed to work fine for a while and is now doing this and getting worse. It seems that if it was the splitter, cable or even the cable card, the new box would have immediately had the same problem as the old box.

Any ideas what to try next before trying to exchange the box? (oh actually I am on Comcast, not FIOS)


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## L David Matheny

whm said:


> I am having an issue with pixelation on my Premiere XL. The picture will will get blocky or even "shimmery" if you can imagine that. The sound will stutter in and out. During this, sometimes the pixlated pitcture will freeze for a few seconds.
> 
> I purchased the first box in 2010 and last April/May (after 2.5 years in service) the picture started to pixelate intermittently. At first very minor glitches that were short and barely annoying, but after about a month the pixalation episodes began to occur several times per hour and would last 30 - 60 seconds. I called tech support and they said it was that my hard drive was failing. I read about the kickstart codes somewhere here and ran the hard drive test. It did fail one of the tests, but also was still running after 2 days. I finally unplugged and tried to reboot the box, but it was stuck in an endless "welcome" screen loop. I had purchased an extended warranty and used that to replace the failed box. TiVo, as expected, sent me a refurbished unit in early June.
> 
> This box has been in service for a little more than 100 days. There were a few very minor glitches in the picture during the first 90 days, (nothing alarming) but just after 90 days the "pixelation episodes" started again with this box. They have gotten just as bad as the last box, lasting about 30- 90 seconds and occurring about 2-4 times an hour.
> 
> I called tech support at TiVo to try and find out if there might be ANY other reason for this to occur besides a bad hard drive. They had me look at the diagnostics. They were as follows:
> 
> Tuner 0: SS=67; SNR=33 dB; RS Corrected=0; RS Uncorrected=0
> Tuner 1: SS=85; SNR=36 dB; RS Corrected=0; RS Uncorrected=0
> 
> They told me the SNR on tuner 1 was a bit high (I never thought a high SNR was a bad thing), and suggested I try replacing the cable card. I did that last Saturday. Now Im getting readings of signal strength at about 67 - 70 on both tuners and SNRs of about 33-34 and RS all zeros on both tuners, but yet the pixelation is still occurring.
> 
> There is a splitter to the cable modem that I have not tried replacing yet but will. Does this sound like a bad hard drive or something else? I have another extended warranty on this box, but no sense replacing the box again if its something external to the box. Just seems odd that when I replaced the box back in June, it seemed to work fine for a while and is now doing this and getting worse. It seems that if it was the splitter, cable or even the cable card, the new box would have immediately had the same problem as the old box.
> 
> Any ideas what to try next before trying to exchange the box? (oh actually I am on Comcast, not FIOS)


A high SNR is a good thing, assuming that what they measure really is a proper signal-to-noise ratio. It sounds like you did indeed have a bad drive earlier, and some of your symptoms sound like that could be happening again. _However_, not all glitches are caused by your equipment. If you have signal lock and program lock and zero RS errors of either type (or maybe even some corrected errors), you are receiving _perfectly_ the transport stream being sent by the transmitter, and any pixelation you see must be a part of the signal being sent. IOW, _under those circumstances_ the picture glitches had to occur prior to transmission. Keep investigating.


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## ChurchillWS

Is anyone else still having issues like this? I'm a newish Bolt owner and I seem to be getting choppy streaming from my Verizon FiOS service that I never had when I was using their STB.


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## JAB

I do not typically see any significant choppiness on FiOS. Rarely, I'll get what looks like a dropped frame or two. Somewhat consistently on CW, there will be intermittent digital audio problems that manifest as audio choppiness or static. None of these problems have risen to the level of me wanting to do something about them, and I'm pretty picky.

Where are you located?

Have you checked the metrics mentioned in this thread to ensure you don't have a signal strength (too low or too hot) issue?


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## ChurchillWS

I have checked against the numbers in this thread and it is possible that the signal is too hot, but it doesn't seem like the attenuators change any of the numbers when they are inserted, but the reception does get choppier if it is attenuated too much, e.g., 20DB+.

It also doesn't seem to be consistent as sometimes we can watch without issue, but sometimes it is unwatchable. I think it mostly affects the big networks NBC, Fox, ABC. I don't remember having too much of an issue with the premium channels or channels like FX or USA too much. 

I am in the NYC market.


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## JAB

OK. I'm in DC market, so you might have an issue that wouldn't affect me.


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## RMSko

Bumping this thread. I'm in the NY area and have FiOS and a Bolt and have bad pixelation on HD CBS. My SNR is 36 so perhaps I need to drop that a bit. Anyone having this issue or have any thoughts?


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