# MoCA or Wireless N - advice needed?



## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

I've been trying to work on a network upgrade for MRV between the four Tivo HDs and one Tivo S3 in my house and I'm working between a few options.

First off, all my Tivos have Wireless-G adapters, hooked into my Linksys WRT54G router running DD-WRT. Also on my network is a WAP54G working as a wireless bridge for my Xbox 360, PS3, Wii and HTPC. There's 3 laptops on the network as well, all with 802.11G cards or better.

Recently, I moved my home network from 192.168.1.x to 192.168.2.x, as I have UVerse showing up for Internet access only, and to get it to work with my existing router, I have to change the internal LAN to a different network than the 192.168.1.x network that the 2Wire HGV device uses for its network.

One option I've been looking at has been MoCA adapters, since they seem to be used by a number of the forum users, though there's only two options I've been initially looking at. Once is the ActionTec ECB2200 MoCA adapter and the other one is the MCAB1001 starter kit (adapters x2). From what I've seen of the Netgear adapter, it seems like it's only stuck in the 192.168.0.x network range, uses DHCP to get an address and you can't change the network range on it. The ActionTec is even less configurable, so I have no idea what network range it might use, or if it would work with my network. I have no issues with changing my network over to 192.168.0.x to work with the Netgear router, though the ActionTec MoCA adapters are cheaper by no small amount of money for the six I'd need.

The other option is upgrade my router and access point to 802.11N, with the Tivo N adapters on each of the Tivos. From what I've seen in some Google searching, the Tivo N adapter does do 2.4GHz and 5GHz 802.11N, so that would be some savings running all my N-wireless traffic at 5GHz. I'm just concerned that it might not be a better option than the MoCA adapters for throughput. I'm not specifically tied to the Tivo N adapter, though it might be easier with the Tivo N adapter.

Powerline doesn't seem like an option for me, due to the issues I've seen with the wiring in the house, as does running CAT6 around the house and setting up a home run for it somewhere.

If anyone has had any first-hand experience with the ActionTec MoCA adapters and can tell me if they work with any network range or if they're stuck with just one specific network range. I know I can move the home network over to the 192.168.0.x network to work with the Netgear MoCA adapters, though going that route is almost a $200 cost difference between the money I'd pay for the six single ECB2200 MoCA adapters from Amazon. 

I've seen varying reports about the ActionTec routers and how well they seem to work as MoCA adapters, so that might be a little too much work in trying to get them to behave.

Any advice would be appreciated.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

shrike4242 said:


> From what I've seen of the Netgear adapter, it seems like it's only stuck in the 192.168.0.x network range, uses DHCP to get an address and you can't change the network range on it.


I actually just put these into my home network last weekend, and I think you may be misunderstanding how the Netgear MoCA adapters work.

Yes, they are "stuck" in the 192.168.0.x range. However, that is only important when you're _configuring_ the device. You press the button on the back to put it into Setup mode and then connect it directly to your PC (so you have to change the network address on your PC to be in that range). And you don't connect to a web interface to configure them, you have to use Netgear's proprietary Windows utility (which "finds" the adapter on the 192.168.0.x network and connects to it). You actually only need to do this if you need to change the band or you want to turn on security (which I did). Once you turn off Setup mode and connect the MoCA to your coax "network" it doesn't actually have an IP address you can "see" anymore. In other words, during normal operation, you won't see the MoCA on your network at all.

My home network is using the 192.168.1.x range and I have had no problems with the MoCAs yet. In fact, I am pretty happy with the setup. Unfortunately I only have the initial kit right now, so I haven't been able to test MRV transfers MoCA-to-MoCA. I have the new Premiere using one of the MoCAs and the rest of my TiVos are using wireless G. I just bought another set of the Netgear adapters on eBay today though, so once those arrive I will have the other boxes all on MoCA as well. I'm also going to try connecting the MoCA to a switch so it can serve multiple devices at once instead of just one.

Here's my write-up on my setup experience, if you want more details.


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## ghuido (May 9, 2007)

What download are you getting over MOCA? I think the hardware limitations on the S3 are about 25-20 mbps. I use Wireless N bridges but have been thinking about MOCA for a long time.


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

windracer said:


> Here's my write-up on my setup experience, if you want more details.


I read over the review you posted, as well as the info above in your post. So, the MoCA adapters don't have any IP addresses on them, only for configuration purposes? So, it doesn't matter what my network range is, they'll work without IPs to pass data from adapter to adapter?

Sounds promising for the Netgear ones, at least. I hope someone with ActionTec adapter experience can weigh in with news as good as what you've stated.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

The MoCA adapters are not concerned with the IP ranges of your network. As far as your devices are concerned they are all directly connected. It's been my general experience that the vast majority of people get very good speeds from MoCA with little configuration.

If you are comfortable with some basic router configuration, you can buy some after-market MI424WR routers to work as MoCA bridges by following the directions at this link.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1145636

It's more complicated then setting up a dedicated bridge, but they're substantially cheaper.

F


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

shrike4242 said:


> So, the MoCA adapters don't have any IP addresses on them, only for configuration purposes? So, it doesn't matter what my network range is, they'll work without IPs to pass data from adapter to adapter?


That's my understanding, yes (I am by no means a network engineer or MoCA expert, however). And you're supposed to be able to mix MoCA adapters from different manufacturers, so I don't think they really use IPs but act like switches. They must use _some_ type of addressing, obviously, and you can only have a total of 16 on the coax network (which indicates a 4-bit addressing scheme of some sort?) but we don't need to concern ourselves with how they work, they just work! 

Here's Engadget's write-up on the Netgear units from last year when they were announced.

Yeah, they are pricey ... but I just picked up a second pair on eBay (new, in box) for $90 which saved me about 50% over buying them from Amazon.


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

fyodor said:


> The MoCA adapters are not concerned with the IP ranges of your network. As far as your devices are concerned they are all directly connected. It's been my general experience that the vast majority of people get very good speeds from MoCA with little configuration.
> 
> If you are comfortable with some basic router configuration, you can buy some after-market MI424WR routers to work as MoCA bridges by following the directions at this link.
> 
> ...


It sounds like the extra work might be worth the cost, though tossing "buy MI424WR" and "purchase MI424WR" into Google brought up a few results, most of them on eBay cheaper than the ECB2200s, though less than I'd need. The rest of them were above the cost of the ECB2200s, which would make it worthwhile to go with the ECB2200s or the MCA1001 kits.



windracer said:


> That's my understanding, yes (I am by no means a network engineer or MoCA expert, however). And you're supposed to be able to mix MoCA adapters from different manufacturers, so I don't think they really use IPs but act like switches. They must use _some_ type of addressing, obviously, and you can only have a total of 16 on the coax network (which indicates a 4-bit addressing scheme of some sort?) but we don't need to concern ourselves with how they work, they just work!
> 
> Here's Engadget's write-up on the Netgear units from last year when they were announced.
> 
> Yeah, they are pricey ... but I just picked up a second pair on eBay (new, in box) for $90 which saved me about 50% over buying them from Amazon.


There were a couple of sets of the MCA1001s on eBay for $120 + $25 shipping each, and another one that was $150 w/free shipping. The ECB2200s were at Amazon prices or more expensive on eBay.


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## evanborkow (Mar 17, 2008)

shrike4242 said:


> Sounds promising for the Netgear ones, at least. I hope someone with ActionTec adapter experience can weigh in with news as good as what you've stated.


I use three Action Tec HME2200-02's to connect my Tivo HD, Denon 990, printer, wireless bridge, and desktop to the router in another building.

There was no configuration necessary. It was completely plug & play.I am in the 192.168.0.x range.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

I should add that these are all pretty interoperable-I've connected actiontec bridges, actiontec routers, and Motorola NIM-100 network bridges without any issues at all. It's my (uninformed) understanding that they all use the same bridge chipsets.


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## ghuido (May 9, 2007)

I read the endgadget review and saw that it was saying that there might be an issue if you have a 3/4 or higher COAX Splitter at the source node. Did you experience an issue with this or are you getting the full 100 mpbs?


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

ghuido said:


> I read the endgadget review and saw that it was saying that there might be an issue if you have a 3/4 or higher COAX Splitter at the source node. Did you experience an issue with this or are you getting the full 100 mpbs?


I missed that in the initial write-up, though I do have a powered 8-way amplifier as the cable signal feeds into my house and splits off to the outlets around the house. It's supposed to be two-way capable, so cable modem usage won't be an issue, so I'd assume that I shouldn't have an issue with it.

Even if I had 30-40MBps speed, it's better than I'm getting over wireless and more than enough to shuttle HD back and forth between Tivos.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

ghuido said:


> I read the endgadget review and saw that it was saying that there might be an issue if you have a 3/4 or higher COAX Splitter at the source node. Did you experience an issue with this or are you getting the full 100 mpbs?


My connections actually top off around 60 mbps (testing with file transfers) though others have gotten the full 100 with fairly complicated splitter setups.

Unless you have two Premieres, the main inflection point is the reliable ability to get 25 mbps (fast enough to skip commercials while transferring). The S3/Tivo can't go much faster than this.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

shrike4242 said:


> I missed that in the initial write-up, though I do have a powered 8-way amplifier as the cable signal feeds into my house and splits off to the outlets around the house. It's supposed to be two-way capable, so cable modem usage won't be an issue, so I'd assume that I shouldn't have an issue with it.
> 
> Even if I had 30-40MBps speed, it's better than I'm getting over wireless and more than enough to shuttle HD back and forth between Tivos.


MoCA can't go back through an amplifier (i.e. one node on an input and one on an output), even cable-modem safe amplifiers. However, it can go between output nodes on an amplified splitter. Unless your devices are on the input side of the amp, you should be OK.


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

fyodor said:


> My connections actually top off around 60 mbps (testing with file transfers) though others have gotten the full 100 with fairly complicated splitter setups.
> 
> Unless you have two Premieres, the main inflection point is the reliable ability to get 25 mbps (fast enough to skip commercials while transferring). The S3/Tivo can't go much faster than this.


As long as I can pull down 25MBps between the HDs and the S3 I have, then that's plenty. I can't do much with wireless between Tivos, since I think my router's a bit overtaxed for clients with the 5 Tivos, the bridge with multiple devices behind it and 2+ laptops. I know it'll get faster with Premieres over HDs/S3, though that's off the future.



fyodor said:


> MoCA can't go back through an amplifier (i.e. one node on an input and one on an output), even cable-modem safe amplifiers. However, it can go between output nodes on an amplified splitter. Unless your devices are on the input side of the amp, you should be OK.


All the nodes are output nodes as the cable feeds in from the outside, hits the amplified 8-way splitter and then heads out to the outputs around the house.

Which brings up the question, is it worth splitting it at the output node to go the MoCA adapter or just use the in/out on the MoCA adapter to go to the Tivo it's networking?


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

shrike4242 said:


> All the nodes are output nodes as the cable feeds in from the outside, hits the amplified 8-way splitter and then heads out to the outputs around the house.
> 
> Which brings up the question, is it worth splitting it at the output node to go the MoCA adapter or just use the in/out on the MoCA adapter to go to the Tivo it's networking?


I would first try using the MoCA device passthrough (which is basically an internal splitter). This works for most people. If you find that the extra split is making your TV signal too weak, I would recommend getting a diplexer. Diplexers split the signal chromatically, sending the TV/cable modem signal through one output and the MoCA frequencies to another. Because it's not sending everything to both outputs, the signal loss is lower.

F


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

I found a signal amplifier in my attic when I was analyzing my setup before putting in the MoCA adapters as well. So I bought a few diplexers planning to bypass the amplifier for the MoCA part of the network. I ended up removing the amplifier altogether to see what would happen. TV signal was still fine, so I left it out and returned the diplexers. I do have a four-way splitter in the attic, which splits the incoming cable to the four room. I had to replace the one that was there with a new one because the old one was only passing up to 900MHz and I needed a 2GHz one so the MoCA signal wasn't filtered out.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

I received my second set of MoCA adapters (purchased on eBay) yesterday evening and got them set up. All of my HD boxes are on the MoCA network now so this weekend I'll trying running some various transfers and see what kind of throughput I'm getting.


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

windracer said:


> I received my second set of MoCA adapters (purchased on eBay) yesterday evening and got them set up. All of my HD boxes are on the MoCA network now so this weekend I'll trying running some various transfers and see what kind of throughput I'm getting.


I'd be curious to hear what transfer rates you get between your S3 and HD XL, since that would be the closest match to what I have in my environment.

I bet the transfers between your Premiere and S3 would be the fastest out of the Tivos you list in your signature.

I ended up ordering six of the Actiontec adapters from Amazon, which had a limit of 3 per account, so I had to do some work to get the other three I needed. They're showing as shipping in 1-3 weeks from the time I ordered, with the shipments showing arrival dates of 09/01/10 to 09/15/10. I would have gone with the Netgear kit, though they're more expensive on Amazon. There's a number of auctions for the Netgear kits, though most are used and the new ones are about what I'm paying for the Actiontec units. Plus, if there's an issue, Amazon will take care of it.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't know if it is too late for you to cancel your order, but if you buy them as sets of two, Amazon is shipping them immediately.

http://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Eth...2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1282323350&sr=8-2


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

fyodor said:


> I don't know if it is too late for you to cancel your order, but if you buy them as sets of two, Amazon is shipping them immediately.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Eth...2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1282323350&sr=8-2


Amazon's price on the singles bought in pairs saves about $22 per pair, so I don't mind waiting a few weeks to save $66 or so. They seem to be the cheapest option shipped for singles or the pairs, so I always have the pairs to pick up if the singles don't work out for some reason.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

I did some tests and here're my results with the MoCA adapters (from the Transfer History page of the Premiere):

1. Videos copied from remote device: 24.68 Mb/s
2. Videos copied to remote device: 51.71 Mb/s
3. Incoming DVR transfer: 36.91 Mb/s
4. Outgoing DVR transfer: 26.42 Mb/s

I don't have my old wireless G stats, but I know these are better!


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## ajayabb (Jan 12, 2007)

Wow, That's really good. I bet you wish you had done this sooner based on those specs


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

windracer, those are some good stats. I'm assuming that's either Premiere to HDXL, Premiere to S3 or S3 to HDXL? 

I may end up upgrading my router and access point/bridge to 802.11N devices since I think it's throttling my 18MBps UVerse data connection I just had installed yesterday, so I may be doing that anyway.

I'm still sticking to the MoCA adapters I have on the way, though I think your numbers are very encouraging, windracer. What router do you have all this hooked together with?


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

My router is the Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 running DD-WRT (v24-sp2 std - build 13064). So it's just a 10/100 switch, no gigabit. 

And shoot, I forgot to pay attention to what boxes I was transferring to/from.  I think it was all to/from the S3, not the THD. The TiVo Desktop transfers were to/from my Win7 PC which is also now on the MoCA network.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

windracer said:


> I did some tests and here're my results with the MoCA adapters (from the Transfer History page of the Premiere):
> 
> 1. Videos copied from remote device: 24.68 Mb/s
> 2. Videos copied to remote device: 51.71 Mb/s
> ...


Is that premiere to Premiere or to an older TiVo? With a gigabit Ethernet backbone, Premiere to Premiere I get 90mbs to 94mbs transfer rates.

I'm thinking about getting some MoCA adapters to use some of the coax I have to separate my network some more for the wireless bridges I use.(I can't add any more twisted pair to my router since we aren't allowed to add any more cabling outside) Currently with the wireless bridges connected to my gigabit network I get the same speeds as if the Premiere is connected directly to the wired network(90mbs to 94mbs)
But if I get these MoCA adapters i want to make sure I can achieve the same speeds. Otherwise I'll need to stick with only three ethernet cables in my main area when I need at least four to separate the traffic on my network the way I need it.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

I only have one Premiere, so it was to/from my Premier to the S3 OLED through a 10/100 switch. Sounds like you'll see better throughput with your setup.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

I should note that while I'm a big MoCA booster I've never been able to get more than 50 megabits/s on my computer-computer or computer-NAS connections. It's never been an issue for me so I haven't spent huge amounts of time trying to get faster speeds.

It seems though that many people have been able to max out their fast-ethernet connections with MoCA and people on this forum have reported 90-100 megabits/s transfers between premieres.


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

If I get the speeds that windracer is getting, then I'd be thrilled, since I'm getting about half that over 802.11G, and I think with 5 Tivos, 2 laptops and one wireless bridge with multiple devices behind it, my router is getting a bit swamped. Moving the Tivos to MoCA on their own "network" should help with that issue. 

25+ MBps would be what I should expect, and if I get 35+ MBps, I'd be tickled pink.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

fyodor said:


> I should note that while I'm a big MoCA booster I've never been able to get more than 50 megabits/s on my computer-computer or computer-NAS connections. It's never been an issue for me so I haven't spent huge amounts of time trying to get faster speeds.
> 
> It seems though that many people have been able to max out their fast-ethernet connections with MoCA and people on this forum have reported 90-100 megabits/s transfers between premieres.


thanks. That sounds promising for me. Now I just need to figure out whether to get the Actiontec, Netgear, or DLink MoCA adapters.


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> thanks. That sounds promising for me. Now I just need to figure out whether to get the Actiontec, Netgear, or DLink MoCA adapters.


I tossed the model # for the DLink MoCA adapters, DXN-221, into Froogle and found that most of the places that have it are $200 or there abouts. Most are on eBay.

Frys has it listed for $150 as a "while supplies" last.

windracer was lucky with finding the Netgear kits on eBay, so that might be another place to find it.

Amazon seems to be the cheapest place for the single ActionTec MoCA adapters, though they're backordered, which is where I'm at currently with mine.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> thanks. That sounds promising for me. Now I just need to figure out whether to get the Actiontec, Netgear, or DLink MoCA adapters.


If you're comfortable with some basic router configuration and you don't mind the extra size and power consumption you can buy some mi424WR routers pretty cheaply and configure them as dumb bridges. They're interoperable with other MoCA devices (dedicated actiontec bridges, NIM-100, etc).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1145636


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

fyodor said:


> If you're comfortable with some basic router configuration and you don't mind the extra size and power consumption you can buy some mi424WR routers pretty cheaply and configure them as dumb bridges. They're interoperable with other MoCA devices (dedicated actiontec bridges, NIM-100, etc).
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1145636


I just did this, and I have to say it is working out far better than I expected. I bought two MI424WR's on ebay. Though the prices for them are a lot more than they apparently were at one time, they are still way cheaper than buying new MoCA equipment. I bought two of them for about $80.

I was a little worried because my house is fairly big and the cable runs are very long. But it turns out that my S3 that is hooked up to MoCA is actually getting faster transfer rates to/from the PC than the one that is hardwired. I never imagined that the hardwired one would be the one that is the bottleneck for the MRV transfers between the two, but it appears to be the case. I'm getting about 65Mbps over MoCA and only about 45Mbps over the Cat5.


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## Lrscpa (Apr 20, 2003)

Not to change the subject too much, but I have had great success with Powerline Networking. I use adapters from Belkin, which I've had for 18 months with not even the slightest hiccup. Western Digital just released their own adapters too.


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

After a couple emails to Amazon for the two orders I had, both sets of ECB2200s are now in the shipping stage, as they had some in-stock to fulfill my backorder. They're showing as 2-4 weeks backorder and back up in price from when I ordered them.


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## shrike4242 (Dec 1, 2006)

All six ECB2200s arrived today from Amazon, so I'm going to get three of them hooked up (router, Tivo S3 and one Tivo HD) and run some tests to see what I get for speeds.

I'll have to see if I have five spare pieces of coax cable, since there aren't any in the box for the ECB2200s.


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