# Hope for Positive TiVo Improvements?



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Well it looks like TiVo is finally thinking about streaming and more tuners!

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-04/tivo-prepping-4-tuner-hd-dvr/​
Thanks,


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Will the extender require a Tivo subscription?


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## 1gr8ftoy (Apr 2, 2011)

nice, too bad I bought a premier.....4 days ago lol!


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## Mike Pfeifer (Mar 17, 2011)

I wish I got that survey, looks like a good one.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> Will the extender require a Tivo subscription?


That's a good question... I should have posed it within the post. Then again, it's possible none of this may end up in retail and the 'extender' is merely a streaming cable box (versus DVR) that cable companies can offer along side a DVR.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I can't see an extender needing a subscription, but I'm sure TiVo would justify it somehow.

I envision a box that just streams from the main DVR, even live TV if a tuner is available.
It could also be made compatible with streaming from a PC or other devices, so it could be sold as a stand alone device.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

steve614 said:


> I envision a box that just streams from the main DVR, even live TV if a tuner is available.


Leaks indicate what we're calling an 'extender' contains a CableCARD slot.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

That's very weird. So would the point be to be able to watch live TV on the other TVs.. but ALSO stream from the Tivo? I guess that's *sort* of useful.. but if someone has Tivos.. why would they want to watch live TV in normal circumstances? (I watch CNN as I'm going to sleep, but that's the extent of my *regular* watching of live TV.)


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

"Hope for Positive TiVo Improvements?"

At this point many might even settle for negative improvements instead of nothing but crickets.


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

mattack said:


> That's very weird. So would the point be to be able to watch live TV on the other TVs.. but ALSO stream from the Tivo? I guess that's *sort* of useful.. but if someone has Tivos.. why would they want to watch live TV in normal circumstances? (I watch CNN as I'm going to sleep, but that's the extent of my *regular* watching of live TV.)


The weakness in Tivo is that it doesn't have a "hivemind" when you have more than one device. We've got two Tivos, giving us a total of four tuners, but we have to manually manage the recording of shows across the two devices to get best use out of the four tuners.

But with a single four-tuner device that streams to the other TV, it would be a better solution; it would manage all four tuners to best effect. And it would still give me full Tivo functionality on multiple TVs: I could watch pre-recorded material. But if I want to watch live TV, which I do not infrequently, I'd still have pause, rewind, and even record.

I've been thinking that, with Tivo seemingly stagnated, that next year I should replace my two TivoHDs with a custom built four-tuner HTPC. If a four-tuner Tivo with streaming-extenders is released (and that works well), I would seriously considering buying a system.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Considering the Premiere hasn't received a significant update a year after release and remains unfinished, odds of Tivo being able to sell me a "super-Premiere" are ... low. 

This company needs to finish the products it's currently selling before starting on something new.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

mattack said:


> That's very weird. So would the point be to be able to watch live TV on the other TVs.. but ALSO stream from the Tivo?


Yeah. Don't think of this in retail terms as we're used to. Think about how cable or satellite companies offer both standard cable boxes and DVRs. The "extender" is a non-DVR TiVo that just so happens to also receive streamed content from a full-on TiVo DVR. I suspect retail is an afterthought at this point and if it were me, beyond cable partner distribution, I'd only offer the 'extender' online.


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## Floydian (Jul 16, 2009)

What will they think of next?


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't foresee even the mythical extenders will be sold retail (except maybe ebay, lol). I wonder if the extenders will work with pytivo and streambaby.. and if possible without a real Tivo in the house. The extender is what I really wanted a year or so ago when I got my 2nd Tivo.

I still fear we are going to see alot of great Tivo development.. but only available on the cable company side. Retail seems dead and all the new ideas/development/requests seem to be coming up to Tivo via cable companies. I think the change from Retail development is mainly because people are used to being ripped off via Cable companies, so there is alot more money to be made.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Nothing technical stopping them from making an extender for $100 ala an Apple TV.

Overall though Tivo is treading water. 

I expect tech companies to make tv over the internet truly happen before I expect great Tivo development.

Tivo is the Flip Video Camera except it had a much longer run.

But now with on-demand tv over the internet and via the cable companies getting better no one needs what Tivo does any more except to skip commercials which I do love.

The content companies should be screaming for video streaming to happen yesterday because you can't skip commercials. Nothing is saved on your end except a bit of the show is cached.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> The content companies should be screaming for video streaming to happen yesterday because you can't skip commercials.


The content companies sell content, the cable companies and broadcast networks sell advertising. Their objectives and strategies sometimes overlap, but often they don't. The content companies are most concerned with not alienating their distribution partners which is where they make most of their money. You see them experimenting with Internet streaming... but mostly as bundled with service (like Comcast and Time Warner are doing with iPad apps). But it's getting interesting, a real exciting time. Not sure what TiVo's role will be.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> But now with on-demand tv over the internet and via the cable companies getting better no one needs what Tivo does any more except to skip commercials which I do love.


Lets be honest no one needs TV.

To assume everyone or even a majority of people who currently use a DVR will find streaming content from the Internet an acceptable replacement to a their DVR does not make any sense to me.

First not everyone has reliable cap free high speed Internet access that can provide HD content to multiple TVs at the same time.

Second some people who purchased large screen HD TVs actually care about the quality of the content they are watching. No low cost streaming service is going to meet the quality of the HD I record form OTA for a long time.

Third some people find it slightly annoying to pay for content they already paid for or received for free from OTA.

I am sure some people will find it acceptable and I am also fairly sure the trend will continue into the future. But I look at this as the same as people dropping their cable or satellite subscriptions. Sure some do but not enough to matter and of those that actually do drop cable or satellite a good DVR and OTA along with streaming from Internet is what actually makes it workable (and yes I am one of the people who has dropped cable/satellite).

Thanks,


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Lets be honest no one needs TV.
> 
> To assume everyone or even a majority of people who currently use a DVR will find streaming content from the Internet an acceptable replacement to a their DVR does not make any sense to me.
> 
> ...


Who said anyone needed TV? I said no one is going to need Tivo when everything is on-demand either via the internet or cable company. That will happen before any great rush of development for Tivo.

I'm not even taking the cable company out of the equation.

Quality and bandwidth issues are becoming moot points.

I'm sure there will be exceptions like folks in the mountains who get TV via satellite. I'm not addressing those.

I'm just making the simple maybe obvious observation that what as once done by the VCR and then the DVR is now done on the server-side of things.  Thus no need for a box in your house to time shift video.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

davezatz said:


> The content companies sell content, the cable companies and broadcast networks sell advertising. Their objectives and strategies sometimes overlap, but often they don't. The content companies are most concerned with not alienating their distribution partners which is where they make most of their money. You see them experimenting with Internet streaming... but mostly as bundled with service (like Comcast and Time Warner are doing with iPad apps). But it's getting interesting, a real exciting time. Not sure what TiVo's role will be.


I know what Tivo's role will be. It will disappear. Obvious as the sun sets every day.

The DVR is now on the server side of things. No need to have a box in the house to time shift for you. That is the not-so-distant future.

I also didn't even limit myself to internet-only streaming. On-demand via the cable company has the same effect.

Many cable customers don't bother with a DVR because of On-Demand.

I'm not saying this happens overnight. But it seems like we are poised for things to change within the next 5 years.


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## rayik (Feb 4, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> I know what Tivo's role will be. It will disappear. Obvious as the sun sets every day.
> 
> The DVR is now on the server side of things. No need to have a box in the house to time shift for you. That is the not-so-distant future.
> 
> ...


DVRs can continue to serve to time shift free OTA broadcasts. For OTA, Tivo serves the same purpose as when it originally came out in the era of cable / satellite with no DVRs.

That is the role it serves in our household. We have completely cut the cord. OTA and internet streaming (using ROKU for most everything and XBOX 360 for only ESPN3).


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Who said anyone needed TV? I said no one is going to need Tivo when everything is on-demand either via the internet or cable company. That will happen before any great rush of development for Tivo.


 My first line was meant as a joke no one has ever needed a TiVo or even TV for that matter - none of this is a necessity it all optional.



trip1eX said:


> I'm not even taking the cable company out of the equation.


Why? From what I see there is more of a chance that people will dump cable and go to OTA with a good DVR and add Internet streaming instead of dumping their DVR and adding streaming. I time shift 100% of my viewing so to get rid of my DVR means streaming everything not likely to happen anytime soon.



trip1eX said:


> Quality and bandwidth issues are becoming moot points.


Really? I think not. Quality over the Internet is still very low and bandwidth is going to become more of an issue. If you don't care about quality that is your business but don't assume most people with 50+ inch set bought them to view low quality HD.



trip1eX said:


> I'm sure there will be exceptions like folks in the mountains who get TV via satellite. I'm not addressing those.


The exception is to find someone who has replace a DVR with streaming only and is happy paying more and watching lower quality HD.



trip1eX said:


> I'm just making the simple maybe obvious observation that what as once done by the VCR and then the DVR is now done on the server-side of things. Thus no need for a box in your house to time shift video.


Maybe someday for those lucky enough to live in the right place but I listed all the reason why it isn't going main stream anytime soon.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

rayik said:


> DVRs can continue to serve to time shift free OTA broadcasts. For OTA, Tivo serves the same purpose as when it originally came out in the era of cable / satellite with no DVRs.


Yep. As long as OTA is viable. This is one of the exceptions I wasn't addressing. Off topic, but I don't think the model is OTA viable if everyone is skipping commercials with their DVRs.



rayik said:


> That is the role it serves in our household. We have completely cut the cord. OTA and internet streaming (using ROKU for most everything and XBOX 360 for only ESPN3).


Yes that is a different issue. I'm not talking about cord cutting.

I'm talking about the day when I can get everything on-demand via streaming at an equivalent or good enough quality whether from the cable company or from another company via the internet.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Why? From what I see there is more of a chance that people will dump cable and go to OTA with a good DVR and add Internet streaming instead of dumping their DVR and adding streaming. I time shift 100% of my viewing so to get rid of my DVR means streaming everything not likely to happen anytime soon.


I'm not excluding the cable company because they have an on-demand model in place right now. You can watch alot of content on-demand via the cable company without a DVR. They also happen to have large selections of their content available via internet streaming.

DVR OTA is great, but not going to exist in the long run. How can it? HOw can it become the mainstream way of watching tv if everyone is skipping commercials and the shows are supposed to be funded by commercials?

It will only stay that way if it is subsidized in some form or another. LIke if most shows are watched live by most people. That won't be me, but I know how some are and maybe most folks that watch these shows have to watch it as early as possible in order to "not be left behind" at the water cooler.



atmuscarella said:


> Really? I think not. Quality over the Internet is still very low and bandwidth is going to become more of an issue. If you don't care about quality that is your business but don't assume most people with 50+ inch set bought them to view low quality HD.


That is already falling apart. Comcast just announced 105 mbps internet in every service area. Cost is high now I'm sure, but 105 mbps is way more than even enough bandwidth for a few high quality HD streams. I get 15 mbps today as it is. I can stream a good quality HD stream to my home. This will come relatively quick.

The market won't take off at the top end either. IT will take off in the middle because folks will take the middle (in terms of picture quality) and convenience over the highest end. Eventually of course bandwidth takes care of everything.



atmuscarella said:


> The exception is to find someone who has replace a DVR with streaming only and is happy paying more and watching lower quality HD.
> 
> Maybe someday for those lucky enough to live in the right place but I listed all the reason why it isn't going main stream anytime soon.


Nah you are just looking at today and the last 5 years. I'm looking at today and the next 5.

I'm not sure what you're arguing. That folks want to pay for DVRs and have to program wishlists and season passes etc instead of just typing in a show they want to watch and watching it? That folks want to pay for these machines and the fees associated with them instead of having an easy Netflix-like service?

You gotta be kidding me if this what you think.

No the only question is when. And right now we are the cusp of the when.

To drive it back on topic - How can there be any future positive developments for Tivo when the future is a Tivo-less future?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

ShoutingMan said:


> The weakness in Tivo is that it doesn't have a "hivemind" when you have more than one device. We've got two Tivos, giving us a total of four tuners, but we have to manually manage the recording of shows across the two devices to get best use out of the four tuners.
> 
> But with a single four-tuner device that streams to the other TV, it would be a better solution; it would manage all four tuners to best effect. And it would still give me full Tivo functionality on multiple TVs: I could watch pre-recorded material. But if I want to watch live TV, which I do not infrequently, I'd still have pause, rewind, and even record.


But it would require a hard drive (or maybe 30 minutes worth of flash if they didn't allow record).. Plus the rental of another cablecard/extra digital drop fee.

That seems very expensive for a "once in a while thing".

The extender idea (even if, which I hope there is not, there is a VERY small monthly fee) makes perfect sense to me... The cable card IN an extender that's NOT a DVR all by itself is what seems strange.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

It doesn't seem that strange to me. It merely offers the option of an additional tuner for that room. If you never watch live TV, then you wouldn't need the CableCARD. You would be free to just stream recorded content from other rooms. 

For example I have a friend staying with me and I record more than enough shows for both of us and we have similar tastes. He could easily go out and buy an extender to connect to my current setup. This would allow him to watch any of my shows. Otherwise I either need to move a TiVo in his room, or he buys a TiVo on my account and then transfers it to his own account when he leaves.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

mattack said:


> The extender idea (even if, which I hope there is not, there is a VERY small monthly fee) makes perfect sense to me... The cable card IN an extender that's NOT a DVR all by itself is what seems strange.


Not strange at all seeing has how it is most likely born out of a STB for MSOs...


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

mattack said:


> The extender idea (even if, which I hope there is not, there is a VERY small monthly fee) makes perfect sense to me... The cable card IN an extender that's NOT a DVR all by itself is what seems strange.


Of course the idea thing would be for them to offer existing customers a cheap upgrade to the new system, as well as a firmware download for their old unit that turns it into an extender box .


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## rayik (Feb 4, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> Quality over the Internet is still very low and bandwidth is going to become more of an issue. If you don't care about quality that is your business but don't assume most people with 50+ inch set bought them to view low quality HD.
> 
> The exception is to find someone who has replace a DVR with streaming only and is happy paying more and watching lower quality HD.


Actually, I've found streaming quality to be very, very good. We have a 47" TV and use a Roku. The HD offered by Netflix and Hulu Plus is the equivalent of the HD that we recieved from DirecTV. There are other channels on the Roku that offer very good quality HD. I had not been expecting that when I first started to explore internet streaming as an alternative to D* or cable.

As for metered bandwidth, in our first full month of cord cutting (OTA and internet streaming) we used 37GB. That is far below the 250GB cap that our ISP imposes. (We really only watch TV at night.)


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

mattack said:


> But it would require a hard drive (or maybe 30 minutes worth of flash if they didn't allow record).. Plus the rental of another cablecard/extra digital drop fee.
> 
> That seems very expensive for a "once in a while thing".


I don't follow: the master device has a four-tuner system. The extenders would need perhaps a small amount of memory, and would stream live or pre-recorded media form the master. This can be done with a Windows PC (master) and Xbox (extender).

If this has not been a problem for you, then you don't have the nuisance of managing multiple Tivos to record three or more shows that are on a the same time. This is a seasonal issue, needing to program two Tivos to record the various shows, and then decide whether to watch in the room they were recorded in, or transfer to a different Tivo to watch.

A centralized tuner box that streams to one or more satellite units would be a better solution; it would be more Tivo like that Tivo is now. If my wife heard there was a four-tuner Tivo with extenders, we'd probably buy them immediately.


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> Comcast just announced 105 mbps internet in every service area.


That sounds like an awfully fast way to reach that 250 GB per month cap.


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## MrSkippy53 (Jan 27, 2011)

JimboG said:


> That sounds like an awfully fast way to reach that 250 GB per month cap.


Wonder if they give u a larger cap. After all the service is like $199 per mo or like $119 if part of a bundle...


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

ShoutingMan said:


> I don't follow: the master device has a four-tuner system. The extenders would need perhaps a small amount of memory, and would stream live or pre-recorded media form the master. This can be done with a Windows PC (master) and Xbox (extender).


You have to pay per cablecard, and possibly even extra 'digital outlet fees', beyond the cablecard cost itself.


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

mattack said:


> You have to pay per cablecard, and possibly even extra 'digital outlet fees', beyond the cablecard cost itself.


So? That's true if you have multiple Tivos. And a non-issue if you use only over-the-air HD, like I do. Four tuners is four tuners, and all the better if they're all managed collectively than split across multiple devices.

An interesting rant on last week's "Hypercritical" episode (from 5by5.tv). John Siracusa rants that Tivo's survey is pointless and a bad sign: of course people want more tuners and new functionality and so on. But they're missing crucial things, like making the Tivo faster, or at least the same, and certainly not getting than slower with every iteration as it does now.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ShoutingMan said:


> So? That's true if you have multiple Tivos. And a non-issue if you use only over-the-air HD, like I do. Four tuners is four tuners, and all the better if they're all managed collectively than split across multiple devices.


That statemewnt is not internally consistent. Managing four tuners collectively does not imply they are not split across multiple devices. Managing all the tuners from a single UI vector is nice. I unequivocally do not prefer they reside in one device.



ShoutingMan said:


> An interesting rant on last week's "Hypercritical" episode (from 5by5.tv). John Siracusa rants that Tivo's survey is pointless and a bad sign: of course people want more tuners


I don't. Emphatically, if a 4 tuner box costs more than $25 more than a 2 Tuner box, I'll take the 2 Tuner box - which is what I have. Implementing a 4 tuner box would make me LESS LIKELY to buy the next genration TiVo.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

lrhorer said:


> I don't. Emphatically, if a 4 tuner box costs more than $25 more than a 2 Tuner box, I'll take the 2 Tuner box - which is what I have. Implementing a 4 tuner box would make me LESS LIKELY to buy the next genration TiVo.


An interesting position, at least to me. With per-device subscription prices, I'd certainly be all over a 4-tuner model. BUT, they have to prove to me now that they can *finish* such a product. I will *NOT EVER AGAIN* buy a Tivo that's not finished.

In the immortal words of W., "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me--you can't get fooled again."


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> I don't. Emphatically, if a 4 tuner box costs more than $25 more than a 2 Tuner box, I'll take the 2 Tuner box - which is what I have. Implementing a 4 tuner box would make me LESS LIKELY to buy the next genration TiVo.


Why?

Even if you only record at most 2 shows at the same time, it frees up 2 tuners for suggestions which based on your other posts would be a good thing for you. On top of that it also allows you more freedom in padding shows since you will always have extra tuners free.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Why?
> 
> Even if you only record at most 2 shows at the same time, it frees up 2 tuners for suggestions which based on your other posts would be a good thing for you. On top of that it also allows you more freedom in padding shows since you will always have extra tuners free.


Add possibly PIP which they thought about but never did.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> Lets be honest no one needs TV.


I don't know, some people act as if they are more addicted to it than a Heroin addict.



atmuscarella said:


> To assume everyone or even a majority of people who currently use a DVR will find streaming content from the Internet an acceptable replacement to a their DVR does not make any sense to me.


I agree with just about everything you say. More and more ISPs are implementing caps or threateing it. My ISP has a quiet one. My brother's ISP has a ridiculous 250M a month limit.

My service peaks at about 6 Mbps. I could pay extra to get 10.

There is something more, and much more important, though. If I have said it once, I have said it a dozen times. The TiVo's most important feature is its ability to act as an automated filter to eliminate garbage. On the CATV feeds there are tens of thousands of programs a week, but most are drek. The TiVo offers a highly configurable, highly automated means of eliminating almost all the drek and presenting the user with a much shorter, but still very long list of items available for viewing, almost all of which the user would like to watch at one time or another. I've looked at NetFlix and at Amazon, and not only do both suffer from significant technical limitations, but both offer the same hideously tedious prospect presented to the shopper at Target who might consider digging through the massive pile of unsorted DVDs in the bargain video basket.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> Why?


Are you joking? 'Becasue it costs extra money to obtain something I don't care to have. The extra tuners are worth virtualy nothing to me.



innocentfreak said:


> Even if you only record at most 2 shows at the same time, it frees up 2 tuners for suggestions which based on your other posts would be a good thing for you.


It's fairly unusual to have both tuners active on more than 1 TiVo. It's not worth an extra $75 to me to be able to have 12 tuners active. If a few of the Suggestions that would be recorded if I had more tuners do not get recorded, I'll live.



innocentfreak said:


> On top of that it also allows you more freedom in padding shows since you will always have extra tuners free.


Since they are always available, they are never used, and as such have no value.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bmgoodman said:


> An interesting position, at least to me. With per-device subscription prices, I'd certainly be all over a 4-tuner model. BUT, they have to prove to me now that they can *finish* such a product. I will *NOT EVER AGAIN* buy a Tivo that's not finished.


There are a lot more considerations than just having the ability to record more shows or being able to control all the recordings from a central location.



bmgoodman said:


> In the immortal words of W., "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me--you can't get fooled again."


Huh? Who is "W", and what the heck is that supposed to mean?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Wow, from Texas, and you don't even know who W is?


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> That statemewnt is not internally consistent. Managing four tuners collectively does not imply they are not split across multi0ple devices. Managing all the tuners from a single UI vector is nice. I unequivocally do not prefer they reside in one device.
> 
> I don't. Emphatically, if a 4 tuner box costs more than $25 more than a 2 Tuner box, I'll take the 2 Tuner box - which is what I have. Implementing a 4 tuner box would make me LESS LIKELY to buy the next genration TiVo.




I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Four tuners, with current Tivos, requires two separate two-tuner Tivos, and they're not managed as a unified system.

Presumably a future four-tuner Tivo would manage recording across all four tuners in a superior way to me having to manage manually recordings on two separate devices. (I'd be OK if Tivo created some sort of "hive mind" software solution, where multiple Tivos would communicate and sort out the programming. But they haven't. And I don't believe they will.)

And even if a four-tuner device and an extender costs more than two two-tuner devices, I'd buy the four-tuner solution, since it would be superior.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Extra tuners would get used during football season to record back to back games on the same channel without having to modify the padding every week.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> I've looked at NetFlix and at Amazon, and not only do both suffer from significant technical limitations, but both offer the same hideously tedious prospect presented to the shopper at Target who might consider digging through the massive pile of unsorted DVDs in the bargain video basket.


That's an ignorant position. Netflix has many automated ways to filter content. MOre ways than Tivo I believe.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> ... Netflix has many automated ways to filter content. MOre ways than Tivo I believe.


Netflix actually has less. Using TiVo Search, I can specify HD + Movies (+ genre) or HD + TV (+ genre) and find specific Netflix content. Go to the Netflix website, and _all_ HD content is lumped together in it's own "genre". Netflix categorizes SD content quite well, but I personally prefer HD offerings.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Don't forget Netflix does have their API that allows others to develop tools for using Netflix.

http://www.instantwatcher.com


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

ShoutingMan said:


> I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Four tuners, with current Tivos, requires two separate two-tuner Tivos, and they're not managed as a unified system.
> 
> Presumably a future four-tuner Tivo would manage recording across all four tuners in a superior way to me having to manage manually recordings on two separate devices. (I'd be OK if Tivo created some sort of "hive mind" software solution, where multiple Tivos would communicate and sort out the programming. But they haven't. And I don't believe they will.)


TiVo could make the TiVo Premiere with a Multistream CableCARD work with 4 tuners by a software update. The M-card is _supposedly_ designed to tune 6 streams simultaneously.

We can also make the supposition that streaming can be done in software.

What I ask for first is that merely using the S4TP as a two-tuner TiVo like an S3 not have it bog down and crash.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Where in the world did you hear that? The tuners are in hardware, not software. Streaming yes, more tuners, no.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

netringer said:


> TiVo could make the TiVo Premiere with a Multistream CableCARD work with 4 tuners by a software update. The M-card is _supposedly_ designed to tune 6 streams simultaneously.
> 
> We can also make the supposition that streaming can be done in software.
> 
> What I ask for first is that merely using the S4TP as a two-tuner TiVo like an S3 not have it bog down and crash.


Meaning you don't need more m-cards just more physical tuners all using one m-card. To bad they can't make it modular like a PC with slots and then we can buy upgrades like tuners, ram, disk, ... and they can charge high margin for them. BUT NO!!!


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

ShoutingMan said:


> I've been thinking that, with Tivo seemingly stagnated, that next year I should replace my two TivoHDs with a custom built four-tuner HTPC.


I was thinking along the same lines as you, so I did some investigation by browsing Microsoft media center forums. Microsoft media center seems to be as stagnant as TiVo is, and has some serious scheduling bugs that cause occasional missed recordings and require periodic cold reboots to temporarily fix. Serious bugs aren't getting fixed, new revisions aren't getting released, and the scuttlebutt is that Microsoft has unofficially abandoned the product, at least as far as DVR functionality is concerned. Check out some of the relevant forums and you'll see what I mean.


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

tivogurl said:


> I was thinking along the same lines as you, so I did some investigation by browsing Microsoft media center forums. Microsoft media center seems to be as stagnant as TiVo is, and has some serious scheduling bugs that cause occasional missed recordings and require periodic cold reboots to temporarily fix. Serious bugs aren't getting fixed, new revisions aren't getting released, and the scuttlebutt is that Microsoft has unofficially abandoned the product, at least as far as DVR functionality is concerned. Check out some of the relevant forums and you'll see what I mean.


Interesting. Talking with some Windows Media Center users in a different forum, they're quite enthusiastic about both the Win7 software and the new hardware (e.g. 4-tuner cards). They've not mentioned systematic bugs.

Do you have any particular links you can share?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Not only that, but 7MC's guide data is not as accurate as Tivo's. Repeats are often not flagged correctly and late lineup changes are often not picked up on 7MC where they are on Tivo. But hey, it's free.


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## anotherlab (Jun 23, 2005)

I would love to see a road map from TiVo for what would be coming next. Last month I switched from Time Warner Cable to FiOS TV and signed up for their multi-room DVR. With TWC, I had 2 Series 2 boxes and a TiVo HD. I canceled the contracts on the Series 2 since they wouldn't work well with FiOS and the FiOS DVR was cheaper.

A week after getting FiOS TV, the drive in my HD fails. I get the endless green screen of death reboot cycle. Now I have a few choices. I can get either get a new drive or "upgrade" to the Premiere. From everything that I have read here, the Premiere sounds like an unfinished product. It's been out long enough that I wonder what is TiVo plan for that platform.

The FiOS TV is good enough that I don't have the urgent need to replace the TiVO HD. There are things that I miss from the TiVo, but I have enough functionality with the FiOS DVR that I can wait and see what is going on. It does feel strange to not have a functioning TiVo in my house after 6 years. For the price that TiVo would charge for an upgrade to the unfinished Premiere, I can get a large, TiVo formatted drive from WeaKnees. In the meanwhile, I can save a few bucks by canceling the subscription on the HD and on the CableCARD that it was using.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

ShoutingMan said:


> Do you have any particular links you can share?


50hz in 7mc is actually output at 60hz

7mc not recording new episodes

media center missed recording 2 new shows


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

So you post one link from the RTM edition back in 2009 and another one from over a year ago?

Based off that TiVo has the same problems based off some of the threads in Season Pass Alerts and Now Playing.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> So you post one link from the RTM edition back in 2009 and another one from over a year ago?


I'm fairly certain the bugs in question haven't been fixed, that's why I've seen comments on those boards to the effect that Media Center's DVR functionality is abandonware.

To be fair, TiVo hasn't been fixing those kinds of bugs either, a fact somewhat overshadowed by their inability to fix their HD UI. The difference is that TiVo's scheduler has fewer bugs and doesn't require daily handholding, as some posters say their 7MC setups do.


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## Hogues92 (Jan 8, 2006)

tivogurl said:


> I'm fairly certain the bugs in question haven't been fixed, that's why I've seen comments on those boards to the effect that Media Center's DVR functionality is abandonware.
> 
> To be fair, TiVo hasn't been fixing those kinds of bugs either, a fact somewhat overshadowed by their inability to fix their HD UI. The difference is that TiVo's scheduler has fewer bugs and doesn't require daily handholding, as some posters say their 7MC setups do.


I've been using WMC for years now and have never missed a show. I've also been on all the major (and minor) WMC forums and those few and somewhat dated links that you posted are pretty rare.

There are people with WMC who have problems and, like most of these forums, they post to get help. Seriously, look at these forums. If I went to TGB or AVS and posted a few links about the Premiere, I could conclude that Tivo is the worst product on the market, when we all know it works damn well. People tent to post problems rather than praise.

Now, as to WMC being "abandonware" (great word!), that is a huge worry. I think that we have to wait to see what happens when W8 alpha is released. But, frankly, I worry that all non-cable co. DVR software (including Tivo) is headed in that direction. That being said, I couldn't be happier with my W7/Ceton setup.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ShoutingMan said:


> I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Four tuners, with current Tivos, requires two separate two-tuner Tivos, and they're not managed as a unified system.


Yes, but putting them into a single unit does not make them more attractive, to me. Quite the opposite. Allowing them both to be managed from a single location would.



ShoutingMan said:


> Presumably a future four-tuner Tivo would manage recording across all four tuners in a superior way to me having to manage manually recordings on two separate devices.


...And when the TA on that machine has a heart siezure, which they do frequenty, what happens? You lose all the recordings. At least with 3 sets of independent tuners, I only lose potentially something like 1/3 of them. Indeed, when a recording is particularly important to me, as is rarely but occasionally the case, I record it on two different machines to make sure I get it.

What happens when the hard drive on the unit dies?



ShoutingMan said:


> (I'd be OK if Tivo created some sort of "hive mind" software solution, where multiple Tivos would communicate and sort out the programming. But they haven't. And I don't believe they will.)


At this point it seems unlikely, it's true. I suspect there may be patent issues preventing them from implementing the protocols.



ShoutingMan said:


> And even if a four-tuner device and an extender costs more than two two-tuner devices, I'd buy the four-tuner solution, since it would be superior.


But it's not a superior solution. In several very important ways, including price, it is inferior, even unacceptably so. I'll take reliability and flexibility over convenience a million ways from Sunday.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> Extra tuners would get used during football season to record back to back games on the same channel without having to modify the padding every week.


Since I have never in my adult life watched a football game, this is entirely moot for me. It certainly doesn't prevent one from dedicating a 3rd tuner on a 2nd TiVo to such a use, however.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Hogues92 said:


> I've been using WMC for years now and have never missed a show.


Do you have a Tuning Adapter?


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## Hogues92 (Jan 8, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Do you have a Tuning Adapter?


No, I'm lucky. Frankly, I hadn't thought of TA problems. Are there different TA problems with different platforms, or does the TA's have the same problem with, say, the Ceton card as they would Tivo?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Hogues92 said:


> No, I'm lucky. Frankly, I hadn't thought of TA problems. Are there different TA problems with different platforms, or does the TA's have the same problem with, say, the Ceton card as they would Tivo?


I don't really know. That's why I asked. Other than extended power outages or last minute schedule changes or over-runs, none of which the WMC system could avoid, either, the only reason my Series III class TiVos have ever missed a recording is a locked-up TA.

Also, I'm not sure how "lucky" that is. Unless you are on an all-digital system, it means your channel line-up is quite limited.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mattack said:


> Wow, from Texas, and you don't even know who W is?


My first thought was Bill W, who founded Alcoholics Anonymous. By the reference to Texas, I'm guessing maybe it is George W. Bush? I certainly wish I didn't know who he is.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> That's an ignorant position. Netflix has many automated ways to filter content. MOre ways than Tivo I believe.


I freely admit to having a limited knowledge of the Netflix interface. Since there doesn't seem to be a way to observe it without signining up for Netflix, I'm limited in my personal experience of the system. That said, what I have heard of the Netflix interface suggests it is vastly less sophisticated or flexible as the boolean expressions supported by the TiVo.



orangeboy said:


> Netflix actually has less. Using TiVo Search, I can specify HD + Movies (+ genre) or HD + TV (+ genre) and find specific Netflix content. Go to the Netflix website, and _all_ HD content is lumped together in it's own "genre". Netflix categorizes SD content quite well, but I personally prefer HD offerings.


That has been my (admittedly limited) experience, as well. Not only that, but the number of interesting offerings (especailly in HD streaming) seem to be minimal, at best.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

zalusky said:


> Add possibly PIP which they thought about but never did.


I would pay to have PIP removed from my TiVo. I have a TV that has PIP on it. It's exceedingly annoying.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> I freely admit to having a limited knowledge of the Netflix interface. Since there doesn't seem to be a way to observe it without signining up for Netflix, I'm limited in my personal experience of the system. That said, what I have heard of the Netflix interface suggests it is vastly less sophisticated or flexible as the boolean expressions supported by the TiVo.


As I have previously posted...http://instantwatcher.com

No need to be a member.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> As I have previously posted...http://instantwatcher.com
> 
> No need to be a member.


Is *that* the Netflix UI? The one that is supposed to have more filters than the TiVo? It's pathetic. I'll give it moderately high marks for displaying 30+ titles per page. TiVo's 8 per page is utterly horrible. Other than that, though, it's weak as water. It also doesn't help that the selection is downright dismal. According to the search, less than 2200 HD movies are available for streaming. Something like 90% of those are garbage, leaving maybe 300 - 300 interesting programs, most of which I already have. I continue to struggle to see the value, here.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> Is *that* the Netflix UI? The one that is supposed to have more filters than the TiVo? It's pathetic. I'll give it moderately high marks for displaying 30+ titles per page. TiVo's 8 per page is utterly horrible. Other than that, though, it's weak as water. It also doesn't help that the selection is downright dismal. According to the search, less than 2200 HD movies are available for streaming. Something like 90% of those are garbage, leaving maybe 300 - 300 interesting programs, most of which I already have. I continue to struggle to see the value, here.


No that isn't. It is a third party site using the API. It is merely a way to see some of what is available via Netflix. There may be better sites out there, this is just the one I know off hand.

The rest is all your opinion on how it is all crap except what you watch so I will just once again ignore that part.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

The Tivo Netflix interface has a lot to be desired. You are presented with a list of movies (that you have to select online and add them to an instant watch folder) similar to the NPL only the background is red with the Netflix logo instead of the TiVo guy.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> Since I have never in my adult life watched a football game, this is entirely moot for me. It certainly doesn't prevent one from dedicating a 3rd tuner on a 2nd TiVo to such a use, however.


This applies to any live programming that is time padded, not just football. You're in the minority, if you have never watched football. Football is extremely popular and I think this would be a great marketing tool. It would eliminate the need for manual intervention to avoid a missed recording when using a wish list search to record football. Using a second Tivo is just another workaround, because you still have to transfer the program or go in the other room to watch it. I suppose you could have two HD Tivos hooked to one TV, but that's kind of expensive just to watch football.

Another option would be for the Tivo software to recognize back to back time padded recordings on the same channel keep recording the second program on the same tuner as the first program.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> My first thought was Bill W, who founded Alcoholics Anonymous. By the reference to Texas, I'm guessing maybe it is George W. Bush? I certainly wish I didn't know who he is.


I would have thought the mangling of the old saying would have given it away.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

shwru980r said:


> Another option would be for the Tivo software to recognize back to back time padded recordings on the same channel keep recording the second program on the same tuner as the first program.


I wish TiVo could do this. I would even settle for the WMC method where you can have soft padding only when available so you can pad everything and it will never cause you to miss a show due to the padding.


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

We agree on this: we'd like a Tivo solution that holistically manages more than two tuners. I'd be fine if I could receive a Tivo software update that brought centralized management of both my Tivos' schedules, as you prefer.

As for reliability: it's all about degree. You consider four tuners in a single box too risky. Do you consider two-tuners in a single box too risky? What about four, single-tuner devices to record four channels? It seems you've got an arbitrary demarcation. In five years, you'll have 8-tuner boxes and argue that 16-tuner boxes are too risky 

I want a 4-tuner management system. I consider that concept superior to the current need to manually manage and de-conflict individual boxes. As it seems more likely for that to appear in a new four-tuner box than a through a multi-box management software update, and that will be fine for me.



lrhorer said:


> Yes, but putting them into a single unit does not make them more attractive, to me. Quite the opposite. Allowing them both to be managed from a single location would.
> 
> [...]
> 
> But it's not a superior solution. In several very important ways, including price, it is inferior, even unacceptably so. I'll take reliability and flexibility over convenience a million ways from Sunday.


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## qunewsguy (Sep 19, 2006)

I just got a new survey asking me about 3D TV and whether I'd be interested in a 3D TiVo.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Did you get the last survey also?


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## TooMuchTime (Jun 29, 2008)

I got the survey that the initial post was all about. As I recall, the question was to rate percentages on some TiVo improvements. I _think_ I put 55% on a 4 tuner TiVo box and 45% on multi-room viewing without copying. _Or it was the other way around._ Either way, both were pretty close in my estimation.

In the comments at the end I requested a feature to block programs by name. There's always hope...


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> I know what Tivo's role will be. It will disappear. Obvious as the sun sets every day.
> 
> The DVR is now on the server side of things. No need to have a box in the house to time shift for you. That is the not-so-distant future.
> 
> ...


So. We frequently will collect and entire season of a show to watch during a down turn in new shows, does the on demand options on the cable system keep the old episodes indefinitely for people that do this, or is it like Hulu and they only keep the 3 or 4 newest ones?


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