# Game of Thrones S03E01 - 03/31/13



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

No thread yet?

I REALLY loved that the opening credits shows Winterfell burning. That was truly awesome.

Dani is really coming into her own.

As for the rest.. fastest hour on TV. If we can't get more episodes can we at least get 2 hour episodes? I'm ready for the next episode already!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Agreed, show goes by way to fast!

Great start to the season.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I realize they've got a ton of characters and different things going on, but I'm surprised we didn't see at least a quick scene of Jamie and Brienne.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I realize they've got a ton of characters and different things going on, but I'm surprised we didn't see at least a quick scene of Jamie and Brienne.


Or Arya or the 2 boys with Hodor (Hodor!).

I think LittleFinger is going to substitute Sansa for Kat. He needs to start working on getting a wife and heir now.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ereth said:


> No thread yet?
> 
> I REALLY loved that the opening credits shows Winterfell burning. That was truly awesome.
> 
> ...


I was going to post one last night but was too tired so instead of giving a half ass post just to be the thread starter I figured I'd wait until I got to work and give more detailed thoughts. (which are coming in another post) 

AND YES! Winterfell burning in the opening was amazing. Most definitely the fastest hour on TV. Even faster for me than SPN because there are no commercials to interrupt me so it seems like it just came on when the credits roll!


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

A good episode although I felt it was a setup for each character. Like, "here is Sansa and here is what she will be doing this season". When they only have 10 episodes "filler" like this feels like a waste. Dany was the only one I felt like they really moved along in this episode. 

Oh and Margery is Princess Di


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Where to even start on this episode. So much happened!!
First SO glad it's back!!! The only other show I watch live besides SPN. Thank god it's a 9pm and not 10pm show. 

I guess I'll start with the fact that I want someone to stab Tywin Lannister in the face so bad. Probably more than I want Joffrey to die. And that's reeeeeeeeal bad. I just want to curl around Tyrion and hiss at anyone that attempts to be mean to him. UGH. His life is so terrible. The people that should love him treat him like a disease. That scene with Tywin was painful to watch. I wanted to reach through the screen at him. 

The beginning with Sam and the creepy undead guy. (not sure if you'd call that an actual white walker?) That was a nice way to start it off. YOU HAD ONE JOB SAMWELL! Oops no ravens sent! "We have to warn them, or before winter's done, everyone you've ever known will be dead." I was excited to see Ghost save him until the others caught up. BUT not happy that Ghost and Jon are still separated! 

I was a little lost on the time in this episode. Like how long has it been since the finale? The opening scene with Sam indicated to me that it was right after the ending scene of season 2 and the white walkers have attacked and left most dead behind. Sam managed to escape and ran, and here we are. Yet then we move to Tyrion and from his face it seems at least weeks maybe months since the battle. Someone help me out here. 

And then to Jon Snow! GIANTS? I wasn't told there would be giants! Apparently neither was he! Heee. And I got frustrated with Jon last season because I felt he was a bit dense in his decision making but he's either really on board with joining them or that was the most convincing, conniving I've seen him! And let's face it, what he said probably had as much truth as anything even if he IS bluffing his way in. "I want to fight for the side that fights for the living." was just wow. And I just love love love Ygritte. Snarky and cute and her and Jon are so going to get it on. 

I'm still side eying Margaery but she really seems sincere in her wanting to help the orphaned kids. Joffrey watching her cracked me up. Yes we realize acts of kindness confuse you, little king. I liked her again during dinner. She was getting right under Cercei's skin wasn't she? 

Davos is alive! And Stannis still sucks! I really thought for a second they were going to have Davos say Joffrey when asked which king. But I should have known he's got far too much pride and honor to do such a thing. Good for him. Ton of good that does him when Stannis just tosses him in a cell. And his son is dead. Did Stannis even ask? I thought these two were besties? I assume it's because Melisandre has been filling his head with lies. I'm sure she's scolded him over and over about his loss because he listened to Davos. Ugh.

It's sad when so much happens in 60 minutes that I have to sit here and go "what am I forgetting? OH YEAH DRAGONS!!!!!!!!!" I'm sorry but I continue to love Jorah. Even if Danny never loves him back he'll protect her the best he can. The look he was giving Barristan was hilarious. Speaking of, I knew there was a reason we were reminded of him in the beginning. And the warlocks? They were trying to kill her because of what happened at Qarth or just because they are dicks? That scorpion thing was all kinds of creepy. It looked like a person's face was on it. Yeah pass on seeing that again!

And Robb and Winterfell. Wow. See again, how long has it been?? I thought last we saw was Theon and his men surrounded by enough that they felt they could not win. Then they knock Theon out and say "let's go home". So who exactly slaughterd all those people? Was that before that scene with Theon? Sorry I like to think I keep up pretty good with things but the timeline in this episode just screwed with me. And sorry but I am Team Robb when it comes to Catelyn. Lock her away. She had no right to allow Jaime to go. Mom or not. Apparently people are thinking Robb is being a prick about this? Really? Oh and did either of them wonder where Bran and Rickon was?? Last they knew they were at Winterfell when this all went down and now everyone is dead. 

Okay I'll stop rambling now. Can't wait to read other people's thoughts on my thoughts.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

When it ended I said to the wife "That was quick"!
A couple of points:
I noticed there was something different about Winterfell in the opening, but the folks here pointed it out that it was burning (so is it going to burn all season?)
The "Unsullied" training regimen makes the Navy SEALS look like wimps (although the SEALS are volunteers, the Unsullied conscripts)
Lady Margery is definitely a better queen than Goeffery deserves, which makes me think that it can't end well for her (although since Diana Rigg is playing her mother "the Queen of Thorns" that might improve her result)
Littlefinger definitely has the hots for Sansa as a Kat replacement --Creepy
I was going to say that Dany was going to buy at least some of the Unsullied as it fits Westerosi tradition of doing the wrong thing for the right reason, but I think that the former King's Guard commander will talk her out of it.
Stannis showed why no one wanted him as king, in spades. Has he not connected, Mellisandre's "pregnancy" the secret trip to the shore, and Renley's death?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robb was in Harrenhall (sp?), not Winterfell.

I was spoilered to the Giants because I rewatched season 2! when the old man tells the cripple Stark (can't remember the name) that there are no dragons and no Giants, I figured everything he says will be wrong


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay I'll stop rambling now. Can't wait to read other people's thoughts on my thoughts.


Love your ramblings, please don't stop. It reminds me of a lot of points I want to comment on!

As far as the timing, I don't look at each scene as happening simultaneously. So Jon Snow's scenes are right after the S2 Finale; while the King's Landing's scenes might be a month later. When I think about it this way, my head doesn't hurt as much.

Oh, and what is SPN? I'm only familiar with ESPN


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Robb was in Harrenhall (sp?), not Winterfell.
> 
> I was spoilered to the Giants because I rewatched season 2! when the old man tells the cripple Stark (can't remember the name) that there are no dragons and no Giants, I figured everything he says will be wrong


Oh thank you!!! I was baffled by that. I forgot they showed Harrenhall in the opening. Sadly they do not look that much different now. I hope they rebuild Winterfell though. It was lovely!

And I probably heard the giants thing but didn't take it seriously enough to remember at the time.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh thank you!!! I was baffled by that. I forgot they showed Harrenhall in the opening. Sadly they do not look that much different now. I hope they rebuild Winterfell though. It was lovely!
> 
> And I probably heard the giants thing but didn't take it seriously enough to remember at the time.


Same here...but on the re-watch, the guy tells him there is

1. no magic
2. no people who can see/live through animals
3. no white walkers
4. no dragons
5. no giants

he says these things in a couple of conversations. I figured since he was wrong about the first 4, there is no way he was right about the fifth!

you should have done your homework like the rest of us and re-watched season 2. tsk tsk tsk.


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## BradJW (Jun 9, 2008)

DevdogAZ said:


> I realize they've got a ton of characters and different things going on, but I'm surprised we didn't see at least a quick scene of Jamie and Brienne.


I like this show, but geez do they have a ton of characters. I guess it's probably easier if you've read the books (I haven't). Hard to keep track of everyone.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mwhip said:


> Oh and Margery is Princess Di





tiassa said:


> Lady Margery is definitely a better queen than Goeffery deserves, which makes me think that it can't end well for her


No way Margery is a nice person. I think it's all an act.



tiassa said:


> Stannis showed why no one wanted him as king, in spades. Has he not connected, Mellisandre's "pregnancy" the secret trip to the shore, and Renley's death?


He did not need to make any connections. He knew it from the start and told the Onion Knight to take the Red Woman to the shore and to NOT tell him what happened. He sent her to assassinate his brother using her magic.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

tiassa said:


> The "Unsullied" training regimen makes the Navy SEALS look like wimps (although the SEALS are volunteers, the Unsullied conscripts)


Oh yeah I totally forgot to comment on that. That was just gross and weird and WHAT? How is it even possible for someone to have their entire nipple cut off without flinching? Yikes.



tiassa said:


> Stannis showed why no one wanted him as king, in spades. Has he not connected, Mellisandre's "pregnancy" the secret trip to the shore, and Renley's death?


Didn't Davos even yell something about her having a demon spawn?? Will it sink in or is Stannis just that stupid? No wonder nobody wants him as their king.



Anubys said:


> Oh, and what is SPN? I'm only familiar with ESPN


Supernatural, my only real obsession!


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

I have to agree with many here about several topics. But the most impressive to me was that I was watching, looked up, and there were the credits. Fastest hour on TV ever! Whew, it just flew by. 

To me, that indicates how amazingly well put together this show is. Yes, not a lot happened, and it was a "connector" episode, but it's so well done, who cares? I could watch a whole season of GoT connector episodes, and be very happy, given how good this show is.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

So clearly the best show on TV right now. Sorry, Breaking Bad fans. It's not close.

I wasn't all that impressed with the beer, though. It was just "ok"


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I see Margery gaining the loyalty of the orphans and regular folk as ammunition against King Joffrey the A-Hole when it comes time for her to make her move against him. Just my non-book reading opinion. I agree that she's probably not a nice person.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

We already saw her being manipulative last season.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> So clearly the best show on TV right now. Sorry, Breaking Bad fans. It's not close.
> 
> I wasn't all that impressed with the beer, though. It was just "ok"


Beer?



TAsunder said:


> We already saw her being manipulative last season.


I can't wait for her wedding night. I bet it will be even more memorable than when she told Renly it was ok if her brother came in to get him "started"


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Oh my god HBO you are not even funny.

EXCLUSIVE: Peter Dinkalge Replaced for Game of Thrones Season 4
http://hbowatch.com/peter-dinklage-april-season-four/


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

So, my take on Margery is that she is highly political. That doesn't make her good or bad, just highly orchestrated and intentional. 

Her stop at the orphans home was a great political move, given she's about to marry a highly unpopular King. It was a great move to turn support to the boy King and garner support from the people. Her move with Renly was also similar, and all about working with what she had to get what she wants.

But that doesn't make her bad, just very politically astute. Shrewd, cunning maybe, but we don't know if her intent is to do good things or bad things, at least not yet.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh my god HBO you are not even funny.
> 
> EXCLUSIVE: Peter Dinkalge Replaced for Game of Thrones Season 4
> http://hbowatch.com/peter-dinklage-april-season-four/


Is it possible this is an Aprils Fools joke????


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mm2margaret said:


> Is it possible this is an Aprils Fools joke????


100% possible!

what does the episode title mean?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

mm2margaret said:


> Is it possible this is an Aprils Fools joke????


Well yeah, I cannot imagine it's anything else!


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

lol, i love reading all your comments.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Yeah, there are several clues to the real intent of the article:

George RR Martin:"It finally hit me last week while taking an indefinite break from writing The Winds of Winter to catch up on some of my favorite movies. I think it was his epic role in Willow that finally convinced me. Such wit. Such&#8230; tenderness."

"to maintain continuity, Warwick Davis' face will be digitally transposed over Mr. Dinklage's in all future releases of Game of Thrones on DVD and Blu-Ray."

Warwick has reportedly asked for 1 million dollars per episode, amounting to nearly 20 percent of the show's 50 million dollar per season budget. "We felt that Warwick's experience and star power was well worth the investment," Weiss said. "

On the subject of GoT April fool jokes, here's one from last year:
http://www.foxtrot.com/2012/04/04012012/


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I do hope this means "Life is Short" is coming back soon and this is a great cross-promotion (um...that is also an HBO show, right?)


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

tiassa said:


> Yeah, there are several clues to the real intent of the article:
> 
> Warwick has reportedly asked for 1 million dollars per episode, amounting to nearly 20 percent of the shows 50 million dollar per season budget. We felt that Warwicks experience and star power was well worth the investment, Weiss said. 


THIS says to me that it HAS to be an April Fools joke. 20 precent of the shows 50 million dollar budget? Can't be real....


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Only comment that I can make is that I loved it..  
(read books)


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Beer?


There's a "Game of Thrones" beer by Omegaang as part of the marketing fun for GoT.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BradJW said:


> I like this show, but geez do they have a ton of characters. I guess it's probably easier if you've read the books (I haven't). Hard to keep track of everyone.


I heard an interview last week with Benioff and Weiss where they said this show has the largest cast in the history of TV shows, and that when they put together the list of all the people they had to fly to the premiere party last week, they had 55 principal characters.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> lol, i love reading all your comments.


Same here. Now it almost makes me wish I hadn't read the books. I will set lurker mode to ON for the rest of the season.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

The Terrapin Family Band - "Game of Thrones Main Title Music" Cover

I love this!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

mm2margaret said:


> THIS says to me that it HAS to be an April Fools joke. 20 precent of the shows 50 million dollar budget? Can't be real....


Are you doing April fool's now???


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Anubys said:


> what does the episode title mean?


*Valar Dohaeris* means All men must serve in High Valyrian.

The episode title from Season Two's finale,* "Valar Morghulis"* translates to "All men must die".


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Good-- we have someone here who speaks high Valerian. 

Was that the same actor for Selmy? 

Remind me when John Snow and Ghost were separated? Sam runs pretty fast for a fat man.

So no Arya or Jamie and Brienne. Were they the only main characters left out?

I couldn't figure out where Rob and his mother were. I didn't think he could possibly have marched all the way up to Winterfell, but when was there a battle at Harrenhal? And Cat said the one guy was a Riverrun bannerman, but Rob obviously wasn't there for the battle. 

How could anyone not know how unfair it is to blame a baby whose mother dies in childbirth? I've heard that attitude mentioned other places too, and it always seems ridiculous to me.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> Remind me when John Snow and Ghost were separated?


When John went with the half hand (Night Watch guy he killed to earn trust among the wildlings) while Ghost stayed with the rest of the nights watch.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I was a little lost on the time in this episode. Like how long has it been since the finale? The opening scene with Sam indicated to me that it was right after the ending scene of season 2 and the white walkers have attacked and left most dead behind. Sam managed to escape and ran, and here we are. Yet then we move to Tyrion and from his face it seems at least weeks maybe months since the battle. Someone help me out here.


Time is weird in Game of Thrones. One issue is that the people are separated by pretty vast distances...weeks or months of travel time. So the time that passes in one places doesn't always have to match up with the time passing in another, and Martin makes full use of that.

The problem is, there are places where the time DOES have to match up (e.g., Barristan storms out of King's Landing at Joffrey's coronation, and travels to meet Dany last night). And as the books go on, the relative time frames make less and less sense, especially concerning Dany, who does a lot of traveling over great distances, yet stays more or less in sync with Westeros since word of her travels keeps getting back.

So either Martin just isn't paying that much attention to the passage of time and distance (which may be the case), or something funny is going on with the passage of time (which also makes some sense, in a world where seasons seem to have nothing to do with astronomical configurations).

It's an interesting choice they made "outing" Barristan immediately. In the books, he travels with Dany for quite some time before we find out who he is...which of course is impractical in a TV show, where we can look at his face and recognize him from King's Landing. But it changes his character somewhat...


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> His life is so terrible. The people that should love him treat him like a disease. That scene with Tywin was painful to watch. I wanted to reach through the screen at him.


Admittedly his family doesn't respect him, but his life is better than the other 99.9999% of the population that aren't Lannister's


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## gschrock (Dec 28, 2001)

tiassa said:


> Yeah, there are several clues to the real intent of the article:
> 
> George RR Martin:"It finally hit me last week while taking an indefinite break from writing The Winds of Winter to catch up on some of my favorite movies. 


I wish that part was an April Fools joke, but there's no real evidence that it's nothing but the truth.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gschrock said:


> I wish that part was an April Fools joke, but there's no real evidence that it's nothing but the truth.


Sometimes the truest truths are the ones people make up.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

mm2margaret said:


> So, my take on Margery is that she is highly political. That doesn't make her good or bad, just highly orchestrated and intentional.
> 
> Her stop at the orphans home was a great political move, given she's about to marry a highly unpopular King. It was a great move to turn support to the boy King and garner support from the people. Her move with Renly was also similar, and all about working with what she had to get what she wants.
> 
> But that doesn't make her bad, just very politically astute. Shrewd, cunning maybe, but we don't know if her intent is to do good things or bad things, at least not yet.


That was my take on it. She doesn't care about the orphans, but she cares about self-preservation. She sees that Joff can't walk out the door without being attacked because everyone hates him, and she knows she needs to change that (with regard to herself - she doesn't care about Joff beyond him making her the queen). Margery is smart enough to know that it's easier to rule people who like/love you than people who want to kill you.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> So no Arya or Jamie and Brienne. Were they the only main characters left out?


We also didn't see Bran and his gang. Hodor.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's an interesting choice they made "outing" Barristan immediately. In the books, he travels with Dany for quite some time before we find out who he is...which of course is impractical in a TV show, where we can look at his face and recognize him from King's Landing. But it changes his character somewhat...


I think we had talked previously about how that worked so well in the book but couldn't possibly work on TV and what they were going to do about it. I thought they might do something with makeup, hairstyles, but this is better. Just get that part of the plot over. It doesn't add that much to it, and we can replace it with the distaste Jorah obviously had for Selmy instead.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> I think we had talked previously about how that worked so well in the book but couldn't possibly work on TV and what they were going to do about it. I thought they might do something with makeup, hairstyles, but this is better. Just get that part of the plot over. It doesn't add that much to it, and we can replace it with the distaste Jorah obviously had for Selmy instead.


Yeah...what we lose is Selmy taking Dany's measure before he outs himself. That made book-him somewhat of a better person.

What we also lose is some extreme chronological improbability...in the books, he leaves Westeros, arrives in Qarth, and develops a reputation as the greatest cage fighter who ever lived before he hooks up with Dany (anonymously) early in Season 2. That just NEVER made any sense...years would have had to pass between word of Dany's marriage hitting Westeros and Dany meeting Whitebeard/Barristan, which would place the current Dany stuff in the future of the current Westeros stuff...but then a couple of books later we find out that this doesn't seem to be the case, that the storylines are still aligned.

As I said, either sloppy writing, or something weird is going on with time. But it seems the TV people have decided to avoid the issue altogether.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

astrohip said:


> We also didn't see Bran and his gang. Hodor.


Or Theon


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Or Theon


Did we miss Theon?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tivoboyjr said:


> Did we miss Theon?


Ah, Theon...[vague future-to-the-show book spoilers]


Spoiler



George R R Martin must HATE Theon! You think things are bad now? Just wait! You think things are going to be bad later? Just wait some more!


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

As someone who didn't read the books, some characters seem crucial and some, like Theon, seem tacked on to appease the people who read the books. Maybe at some point he'll seem to have a purpose, but so far, no Theon is just fine with me. There's a tiny bit of comic relief with him, but not enough to be worth it.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

robojerk said:


> Only comment that I can make is that I loved it..
> (read books)


I started a thread similar to the one we had last year for Season 2 and Book 2. Feel free to jump in there.

As far as this episode, loved it and look forward to rewatching it. The appearance of the giant was great and I also loved Dany's scenes with the dragons and then with the Unsullied. So glad it is back and looking forward to a great season.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

photoshopgrl said:


> Or Theon


Hey, didn't you have a thing last year for Theon? My fav is Rob....


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

mm2margaret said:


> Hey, didn't you have a thing last year for Theon? My fav is Rob....


Jon Snow is my favorite.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

robojerk said:


> When John went with the half hand (Night Watch guy he killed to earn trust among the wildlings) while Ghost stayed with the rest of the nights watch.


Well, not quite. Before they reached that mountain plateau (can't remember the name...where the first people stayed) they were all walking, and Ghost just kept wandering farther and farther off. Jon kept calling him and he wouldn't come back. Jon just kept going and Ghost kind of did his own thing. We never really knew where he went from there. I had assumed Ghost was continuing to shadow Jon from a distance somehow.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I couldn't figure out where Rob and his mother were. I didn't think he could possibly have marched all the way up to Winterfell, but when was there a battle at Harrenhal? And Cat said the one guy was a Riverrun bannerman, but Rob obviously wasn't there for the battle.


I'm a tiny bit confused. We know that Tywin marched off with most(?) of the soldiers to head to kings landing. We know that Jaqin killed at least a few of the soldiers left behind, but certainly not them all. Tywin had left whoever that guy was to be in charge at harrenhall and to try to track down the brotherhood. That's what the 200 dead (well, 199) northerners were there for. So I assume the tortured a bunch of people, then left on their way.

Also, didn't they make some mention as Robb was marching up to Harrenhall this episode about the Mountain (Gregor Clegane)? So was that the Mountain that Tywin left in charge last season? I'm horrible with faces, and since he was usually in a helmet, I never got very familiar with him. Have to go back and watch s2e10 again (even though I just watched it on Saturday)

Edit: oops, that was s2e8, and yes it was the Mountain. Somehow I didn't catch that in any of the 3 times I watched that episode.

side note: the reason I was watching again (both seasons 1 & 2) is because, it took me a year, but I finally got the wife interested in the show. She seemed to enjoy it, though unfortunately Baelor was spoiled for her, as that was the one episode she saw me watching the first time through, and the yells of "holy ****, they actually killed him?" were unforgettable to her.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> He did not need to make any connections. He knew it from the start and told the Onion Knight to take the Red Woman to the shore and to NOT tell him what happened. He sent her to assassinate his brother using her magic.


And just to make sure we knew he knew, s2e10 he talked with some regret about how "I killed my brother".


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I guess I'll start with the fact that I want someone to stab Tywin Lannister in the face so bad. Probably more than I want Joffrey to die. And that's reeeeeeeeal bad. I just want to curl around Tyrion and hiss at anyone that attempts to be mean to him. UGH. His life is so terrible. The people that should love him treat him like a disease. That scene with Tywin was painful to watch. I wanted to reach through the screen at him.


You know, as terrible as a character as Tywin may seem, I was actually kind of liking him the last 2 seasons. I could sort of sympathize with him...the guy running the war, trying to keep the family legacy from falling apart on his watch, while his heirs are squandering it away. When he realized Tyrion had a mind for things, he put aside his hatred for him and gave him some real power. This episode, I was not really shocked by his hatred over the "whore" issue, but on the scale of "whore vs savior of the city", it seemed "whore" carried the most weight. That was really shocking to me, and then the whole "killed your mother" bit just completely killed the character for me (and not just because it offended the Tyrion fan in me).



> The beginning with Sam and the creepy undead guy. (not sure if you'd call that an actual white walker?)


No, that was one of the dead people that a white walker had touched. We haven't learned their name in the show, but someone in last season's threads said they are called wights. The white walkers are more monster like, and the wights more zombie like



> That was a nice way to start it off. YOU HAD ONE JOB SAMWELL! Oops no ravens sent! "We have to warn them, or before winter's done, everyone you've ever known will be dead." I was excited to see Ghost save him until the others caught up. BUT not happy that Ghost and Jon are still separated!
> 
> I was a little lost on the time in this episode. Like how long has it been since the finale? The opening scene with Sam indicated to me that it was right after the ending scene of season 2 and the white walkers have attacked and left most dead behind. Sam managed to escape and ran, and here we are. Yet then we move to Tyrion and from his face it seems at least weeks maybe months since the battle. Someone help me out here.


That's what I thought too. It seemed like the WWs passed by Sam, they were looking at the plateu where the Nights Watch was, end season, start new season with clanking swords and screams, Sam runs that direction, meets up with some bloodied Nights Watch, and I assume we lost no more than an hour or two at most. But what was with the ravens thing? Last we saw, he was sent out to pick up poo with the other 2 guys.



> Davos is alive! ...far too much pride and honor...Ton of good that does him when Stannis just tosses him in a cell...I thought these two were besties? I assume it's because Melisandre has been filling his head with lies.


Totally what we'd expect from Stannis. Remember, Stannis cut off Davos' fingers for smuggling in food to help Stannis, saying "the good deeds do not outweigh the bad" (or something like that). For Stannis, friend or no friend, good intentions or bad, you do the crime you do the time.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

mm2margaret said:


> Hey, didn't you have a thing last year for Theon? My fav is Rob....


Nope not me. Actually I don't remember really liking him on first watch of the series. But over the break watching it back again I've realized just how awful his life has been and the terrible position he was put in. I have a ton of sympathy for him. I like Robb and Jon Snow but Jon frustrated the crap out of me last season. I don't think I have a thing for anyone. I spend my time wanting Joffrey to die and waiting on Tyrion to get something good in life, which I fear I will always be waiting on.



LordKronos said:


> And just to make sure we knew he knew, s2e10 he talked with some regret about how "I killed my brother".


Ah yes. Clearly I need to rewatch more episodes.



LordKronos said:


> No, that was one of the dead people that a white walker had touched. We haven't learned their name in the show, but someone in last season's threads said they are called wights. The white walkers are more monster like, and the wights more zombie like


Ah yeah now I remember someone saying that about the name. I didn't think they were called white walkers as I know they are different but I wasn't sure on the name.



LordKronos said:


> Totally what we'd expect from Stannis. Remember, Stannis cut off Davos' fingers for smuggling in food to help Stannis, saying "the good deeds do not outweigh the bad" (or something like that). For Stannis, friend or no friend, good intentions or bad, you do the crime you do the time.


Yes I might have acted much more surprised in my comments than I really was/am over that. I did remember the fingers thing especially after they showed his hand in the sun this ep.

I almost want to go back through the threads from last season and read my own thoughts to see how much I've changed on where I was on different characters vs where I am now.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

Ugh, you guys and your memories 
I spent most of the episode trying to remember who everyone was  
I watched season 2 online over a period of about one day (seems like at least year ago) and clearly did not absorb most of it.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

It was a good episode, but it definitely felt like a "lets meet the characters again" episode. I am looking forward to this season picking up steam.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> You know, as terrible as a character as Tywin may seem, I was actually kind of liking him the last 2 seasons. I could sort of sympathize with him...the guy running the war, trying to keep the family legacy from falling apart on his watch, while his heirs are squandering it away. When he realized Tyrion had a mind for things, he put aside his hatred for him and gave him some real power. This episode, I was not really shocked by his hatred over the "whore" issue, but on the scale of "whore vs savior of the city", it seemed "whore" carried the most weight. That was really shocking to me, and then the whole "killed your mother" bit just completely killed the character for me (and not just because it offended the Tyrion fan in me).


I have some thoughts into why Tywin was disgusted with Tyrion and his "whore". By all accounts, Tyrion did an excellent job of being the Hand. But who do you think briefed Tywin about what Tyrion did?

I say it was Cersei. If she fed Tywin stories about Tyrion being drunk all the time with 10s of whores in his bed at all times...well, it's certainly in character and Tywin would eat those lies up. Cersei would take credit for everything, give a song and dance about how she kept things together, and Tywin would believe her because he WANTS to believe her. Nobody would tell Tywin the truth for obvious reasons.

This is what I think happened.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Ah yeah now I remember someone saying that about the name. I didn't think they were called white walkers as I know they are different but I wasn't sure on the name.


Oh yeah, I forgot about the WW name change too. Just went and checked the wiki (always a dangerous thing to do with this show). The creatures we know as "white walkers" were called "the others" in the book.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think also Tywin was using Tyrion. Cersei wasn't getting the job done and Jaime wasn't available, so Tyrion was the only hope he had to hold the fort until he could get there himself. And now he's there, so he can revert to his "natural" attitude towards Tyrion.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think also Tywin was using Tyrion. Cersei wasn't getting the job done and Jaime wasn't available, so Tyrion was the only hope he had to hold the fort until he could get there himself. And now he's there, so he can revert to his "natural" attitude towards Tyrion.


Right. I don't think Tywin is under any illusions about what kind of person Cersei is, or how much he can (or can't) trust what she tells him. He may very well _want_ to believe any lies she may tell him about Tyrion, and he may actually _pretend_ to believe some of them if they happen to suit his purposes at a given moment. But I'm pretty sure he'd know they're lies.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And I also don't think his appointing Tyrion to act in his place reflected any change in his attitude towards Tyrion...it was an act of desperation, to be remedied as soon as possible.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And I also don't think his appointing Tyrion to act in his place reflected any change in his attitude towards Tyrion...it was an act of desperation, to be remedied as soon as possible.


Still, as Tyrion pointed out near the end of season 1, there were other relatives Tywin could have appointed, but he appointed Tyrion because he is his son. So honoring the bloodline rights seem to mean something. Yet this episode, the bloodline rights means nothing when it came to Casterly Rock.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Tywin blames Tyrion for killing his mother, that's a big strike against.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> Tywin blames Tyrion for killing his mother, that's a big strike against.


He also hates him for being a dwarf.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Cearbhaill said:


> Ugh, you guys and your memories
> I spent most of the episode trying to remember who everyone was
> I watched season 2 online over a period of about one day (seems like at least year ago) and clearly did not absorb most of it.


Don't feel bad. Me too, and I didn't really realize it until I rewatched seasons 1 & 2 last week.

I wonder how many of the ones with super memory have read the books? While doing the re-watch I realized just how much I missed the first time around because I had spent most of my time struggling to keep some of the characters and their relationships straight.

For instance, I didn't realize until the rewatch that Cersei and Jamie are not just brother and sister...but twins. That's just one minor point that adds a layer to the story, but was missed the first time around.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Dawghows said:


> Right. I don't think Tywin is under any illusions about what kind of person Cersei is, or how much he can (or can't) trust what she tells him. He may very well _want_ to believe any lies she may tell him about Tyrion, and he may actually _pretend_ to believe some of them if they happen to suit his purposes at a given moment. But I'm pretty sure he'd know they're lies.


Well, I'm sure people were falling all over themselves confirming Cersie's lies. It makes perfect sense for them to do so.

Changing topics:
Others have mentioned what happened in harrenhall. I got a different understanding of what happened. The way I understood it, the Mountain was left in charge and asked to kill the Brotherhood. When Robb marched on Harrenhall, the Mountain (and this is where my view diverges from others) did not stand and fight. He killed everyone and fled with his men.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

jehma said:


> He also hates him for being a dwarf.


I think this is the main reason he has such disdain towards him.  I'm sure all the other reasons are have a ring of truth to them, but when it comes right down to it, he's embarrassed of him.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> Don't feel bad. Me too, and I didn't really realize it until I rewatched seasons 1 & 2 last week.
> 
> I wonder how many of the ones with super memory have read the books? While doing the re-watch I realized just how much I missed the first time around because I had spent most of my time struggling to keep some of the characters and their relationships straight.
> 
> For instance, I didn't realize until the rewatch that Cersei and Jamie are not just brother and sister...but twins. That's just one minor point that adds a layer to the story, but was missed the first time around.


I think a re-watch is a must. There is a ton of dialogue that zooms right by that makes sense episodes later. Only knowing what has happened in the future does it make sense. For example, early in season 2, Mellisandre whispers in Davos' son's ear something about dying by fire is the purest form of death. On first watch, it's just religious BS. But knowing how he dies, the second time I watched that scene was a very chilling moment. She KNEW how he would die!

(and then she tells Davos about that conversation in this episode).

You cannot watch this show only once. You just can't!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> For example, early in season 2, Mellisandre whispers in Davos' son's ear something about dying by fire is the purest form of death. On first watch, it's just religious BS. But knowing how he dies, the second time I watched that scene was a very chilling moment.* She KNEW how he would die!*
> 
> (and then she tells Davos about that conversation in this episode).


:up:
And in that moment Davos knew that as well and that's why he freaked out and would have killed her right then and there had the guards not dragged him off her. I honestly didn't get that Sunday night watching but it dawned on me yesterday when someone on Tumblr posted a gifset of that scene and I realized why that made him so furious.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I think a re-watch is a must. There is a ton of dialogue that zooms right by that makes sense episodes later. Only knowing what has happened in the future does it make sense. For example, early in season 2, Mellisandre whispers in Davos' son's ear something about dying by fire is the purest form of death. On first watch, it's just religious BS. But knowing how he dies, the second time I watched that scene was a very chilling moment. She KNEW how he would die!
> 
> (and then she tells Davos about that conversation in this episode).
> 
> You cannot watch this show only once. You just can't!





photoshopgrl said:


> :up:
> And in that moment Davos knew that as well and that's why he freaked out and would have killed her right then and there had the guards not dragged him off her. I honestly didn't get that Sunday night watching but it dawned on me yesterday when someone on Tumblr posted a gifset of that scene and I realized why that made him so furious.


Wow, I didn't actually catch that. I thought he was just trying to kill her to kill her. He said something to that pirate about how if he couldn't convince Stannis, then he'd kill Mellisandra. I figured he pretty quickly evaluated Stannis' position and decided he'd need to resort to the killing.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Totally what we'd expect from Stannis. *Remember, Stannis cut off Davos' fingers for smuggling in food to help Stannis, saying "the good deeds do not outweigh the bad" (or something like that)*. For Stannis, friend or no friend, good intentions or bad, you do the crime you do the time.


Not exactly. Davos was a already smuggler by trade before he came to Stannis' aid during the siege of Dragonstone. Afterward, Stannis forgave much, but not all, of Davos' prior transgressions by taking only the tips of a few fingers, rather than the whole hand.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

jehma said:


> He also hates him for being a dwarf.


I recall a speech Tyrion made to Jon Snow back in S1 that "All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes", so I think this is definitely part of it.

However, I think the primary problem is that he sees Tyrion is amoral and not an example of the Lannister ideal, which is somewhat silly considering some of the things we know of the other Lannisters. Tyrion is the best of them, not the worst of them.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> it was an act of desperation, to be remedied as soon as possible.


It was a very practical act. He understands Tyrion's abilities. He knew that he needed someone that was crafty and cunning. There's no longer an immediate need for those abilities, so Tyrion is pushed aside and abandoned.

It's possible he even fears Tyrion, that Tyrion is the more capable leader and capable of assuming a position of power over the king. Tyrion doesn't need to be king; he is content to be the man with the real power who pulls the strings behind the scenes.



TriBruin said:


> It was a good episode, but it definitely felt like a "lets meet the characters again" episode.


To me it felt like it was all over the place, and as such lacking suspense and drama. I found it, sadly, to be a little _dull_. It was a typical season opener. I have much higher expectations for S03E02 (unless it ends up a 'lets meet the characters we didn't have time to meet in S03E01' episode)


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Honestly, they need to have 10 2 hour episodes. 

I have no idea how they will cover so much material


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> side note: the reason I was watching again (both seasons 1 & 2) is because, it took me a year, but I finally got the wife interested in the show. She seemed to enjoy it, though unfortunately Baelor was spoiled for her, as that was the one episode she saw me watching the first time through, and the yells of "holy ****, they actually killed him?" were unforgettable to her.


Funny, my wife is now watching it. She happened to be in front of the TV with me Sunday night as S3E1 aired, and watched it. And enjoyed it. But she was (duh) confused about several people. So I would stop and give her a little background every now and then. Ya' know, give 'em a taste and hope they get hooked. 

When it was over, I offered to play the pilot for her (I have every ep recorded). She watched it and is now officially hooked! Last night we watched S1E2. Even more hooked. So we'll try to watch an episode a night or so.

The problem is she knows certain things have happened. She saw Joffrey was king in S3E1, so she knows something happens to Robert before then. And several other changes. But she doesn't know how or why.

And rewatching them again is always fun for me!:up:


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Others have mentioned what happened in harrenhall. I got a different understanding of what happened. The way I understood it, the Mountain was left in charge and asked to kill the Brotherhood. When Robb marched on Harrenhall, the Mountain (and this is where my view diverges from others) did not stand and fight. He killed everyone and fled with his men.


Did we see this last year, or is it just stuff that happened off camera? Maybe Roose Bolton's men attacked and won but lots were killed in the process. He was there, but it was odd that Cat would be there so close to the front lines. I need to rewatch. 

So Tywin has been single since Tyrion was born--and he never spent any time with whores?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

*'Game of Thrones' Renewed by HBO for Season 4*

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2013/04/02/game-of-thrones-renewed-by-hbo-for-season-4/176041/

[not that there was any doubt...]


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> So Tywin has been single since Tyrion was born--and he never spent any time with whores?


He didn't marry any... 

I suspect it's not what Tyrion does that bothers him so much, it's how he does it. Appearances are everything.

And the fact that Tyrion does whatever he does in the form of a dwarf means no matter how he does whatever he does, he ain't gonna win with Dad.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And the fact that Tyrion does whatever he does in the form of a dwarf means no matter how he does whatever he does, he ain't gonna win with Dad.


That's it. Tyrion can't win. He could date only "nice" girls and drink only in moderation, and pops would be on his case for something else. Maybe for being too much of a wuss to get drunk and get himself a whore now and then.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Can someone who has read the books answer me something....

spoiler it because my question might give something away



Spoiler



Okay I'm seeing mentions in reviews that "show Robb" and "book Robb" are not lining up as far as how he treats his mother. Apparently book Robb stood up for her instead of basically tossing her in a cell? Why do you think the massive difference? Are they changing the story? Which do you agree with on this because I'm 100% on show Robb's side.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> Can someone who has read the books answer me something....
> 
> spoiler it because my question might give something away
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Cat has been very different than the books.. If anyone tried to explain Cat's future, they'd be spoilerizing too much. Just for some reason, they retooled her character.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Did we see this last year, or is it just stuff that happened off camera? Maybe Roose Bolton's men attacked and won but lots were killed in the process. He was there, but it was odd that Cat would be there so close to the front lines. I need to rewatch.


As I said in an earlier post, the last we saw of Harrenhall (other than Arya sneaking out) was Tywin leaving the Mountain (Gregor Clegane) in charge and telling him to track down the Brotherhood.

The first we saw of it this season was Robb and the other guy (second in command?) talking about it as the troops marched up. The other guy was talking about where to setup the seige line, which indicated he thought they were going to have a fight. Robb seemed to beleive there would be no fight. I took that to mean he somehow knew the place had already been deserted, but perhaps Clegane was still there, saw the troops approaching, and THEN ran. Either way, he had no real chance to defend the place, as Tywin took most of the troops with him to Kings Landing.


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## bobino (Jul 24, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> As I said in an earlier post, the last we saw of Harrenhall (other than Arya sneaking out) was Tywin leaving the Mountain (Gregor Clegane) in charge and telling him to track down the Brotherhood.
> 
> The first we saw of it this season was Robb and the other guy (second in command?) talking about it as the troops marched up. The other guy was talking about where to setup the seige line, which indicated he thought they were going to have a fight. Robb seemed to beleive there would be no fight. I took that to mean he somehow knew the place had already been deserted, but perhaps Clegane was still there, saw the troops approaching, and THEN ran. Either way, he had no real chance to defend the place, as Tywin took most of the troops with him to Kings Landing.


Since Clegane "The Mountain" could not defend Harrenhall against Robb's army he abandoned the already badly damage castle (damaged centuries ago by dragons). When he took off, he killed all the northern prisoners. That is what Robb found.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

bobino said:


> Since Clegane "The Mountain" could not defend Harrenhall against Robb's army he abandoned the already badly damage castle (damaged centuries ago by dragons). When he took off, he killed all the northern prisoners. That is what Robb found.


That's exactly how I understood it.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> Can someone who has read the books answer me something....
> 
> spoiler it because my question might give something away





Spoiler



I was surprised to see him basically throw her into the dungeon. Rob messed up big time by marrying that girl--he had promised to marry a Frey and broke his word. Cat messed up big time by setting Jamie free. Rob's bannermen were rightly upset. Still it was hard for him to punish her too much when his mistake was probably worse. They both followed their heart--him with the girl and her for Sansa and Arya. And she's his mother. He kept her at a distance after that, but didn't put her in a cell.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The big difference is that in one case, a king is doing what he wants. In the other, somebody is doing what the king forbade.

It's the difference between committing a political blunder, and committing treason.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

The main hatred for Jamie came from Robb's bannerman Lord Karstark (he's one that turned away in disgust after seeing all the northmen killed at harrenhall and is distantly related to the starks). Lord Karstark lost two sons to Jamie at some battle or other and wanted to execute him. Robb has to show his bannermen that he will govern fairly, even if it means locking his mother up.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I don't think anyone actually answered my question.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't think anyone actually answered my question.





Spoiler



Truth is, I don't know why the differences for Cat. It may have something to do with MAJOR future events, but I'm not telling what those are, and you should just let the inevitable happen..


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't think anyone actually answered my question.





Spoiler



In the books, Jamie is held captive at Riverrun and after she lets him go, she is confined to her room at Riverrun by her brother, Edmure, Lord of Riverrun. Since Riverrun isn't being used in the show, a cell is probably the best alternative for the writers because she doesn't have a room at Harrenhal. I don't think his attitude towards her is all that much different.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Honestly, they need to have 10 2 hour episodes.
> 
> I have no idea how they will cover so much material


From what I've heard, the third book will be split between S3 and S4 of the show, so they will basically have 20 episodes to cover that material.

Having said that, you know that they must have several hours of footage for every episode and then tons of it ends up being cut so they can get the episodes to approximately an hour. But would viewership really drop if the episodes were longer? I'll bet most viewers would appreciate an extra 20-30 minutes per episode to flesh out the situations more and fill in more of the details. And if it's an issue of them wanting to stick to 60 minutes so they can sell them into syndication someday, then how about doing 10-90 minute episodes for HBO that would then be syndicated as 15 60-minute episodes. Easier to edit, viewers are happier, more money for HBO down the road.


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## Mr. Merkin (May 6, 2005)

One thing I didn't understand was Cersei expressing concern about Tyrion spreading "rumors" to Tywin about her and Joffrey and Jamie. I mean aren't those rumors pretty much public knowledge by now? I mean Ned wrote that letter to Stannis and publicly questioned Joffrey's legitimacy to the throne and was beheaded for that, hasn't the word gotten out by now? I thought that made no sense. Also, the final scene with scores of White Walkers and Wights descending on the wall was a very different picture than how it opened with Sam out in the open and one leftover Wight with an axe. What happened to the others? They lost motivation and went home? Didn't make sense to me. This show is obviously more tightly written than the Walking Dead but those two points stood out to me.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Having said that, you know that they must have several hours of footage for every episode and then tons of it ends up being cut so they can get the episodes to approximately an hour.


Do you know this to be the case?

I'm not saying it's not, but it would be very unusual. They know how long X pages of script generally runs on-screen, so most of the "editing" will normally take place in the writing stage. Filming is extremely expensive, and it they know they have a one-hour time-slot, then they will aim for one hour worth of film. Since the show almost never fills its one-hour timeslot anyway, I doubt they're doing much trimming...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Do you know this to be the case?
> 
> I'm not saying it's not, but it would be very unusual. They know how long X pages of script generally runs on-screen, so most of the "editing" will normally take place in the writing stage. Filming is extremely expensive, and it they know they have a one-hour time-slot, then they will aim for one hour worth of film. Since the show almost never fills its one-hour timeslot anyway, I doubt they're doing much trimming...


OK, I was exaggerating with "several hours" per episode. But it's very common that even after shooting only what is supposed to be a 60 minute script, a show will end up with quite a bit more than that and the editor and director have to figure out what to cut.

My guess is that with a little more writing, and a little less editing, they could easily get 90 minutes of material each week. And then it would feel less rushed.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

robojerk said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Truth is, I don't know why the differences for Cat. It may have something to do with MAJOR future events, but I'm not telling what those are, and you should just let the inevitable happen..





Spoiler



See nobody has said anything about Cat being different just about Robb being completely different in his attitude toward her. I guess that's my confusion. Everyone keeps answering about Cat or about their locations but not about Robb specifically.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Mr. Merkin said:


> Also, the final scene with scores of White Walkers and Wights descending on the wall was a very different picture than how it opened with Sam out in the open and one leftover Wight with an axe. What happened to the others? They lost motivation and went home? Didn't make sense to me. This show is obviously more tightly written than the Walking Dead but those two points stood out to me.


At the end of season 2, Sam was no where near the wall.. He was/is very far north of it. I'm guessing the WWs/wights passed him by, or he ran away from their march... Thats why the Lord Commander was pissed for Sam not sending the ravens to warn the Wall about what they just saw.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> My guess is that with a little more writing, and a little less editing, they could easily get 90 minutes of material each week. And then it would feel less rushed.


But then they'd have to pay 50% more for the extra filming...


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> See nobody has said anything about Cat being different just about Robb being completely different in his attitude toward her. I guess that's my confusion. Everyone keeps answering about Cat or about their locations but not about Robb specifically.





Spoiler



The books are written from character's point of view, but there are not any chapters in books 1-3 with Robb's POV. They are told from the point of view from someone with him, or near him (like Cat). That's why we usually mention Cat. We read her inner thoughts, and know what she is thinking. With Robb we know what others saw, or heard what he said..


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But then they'd have to pay 50% more for the extra filming...


But that's my point, the footage is probably already there. Each conversation could have a couple more lines of dialogue. Each establishing shot could last a few more seconds. Each fight sequence could be edited to last a little longer. Sure, making a 90 minute episode would cost more. But it wouldn't need to cost 50% more. They could probably add 30 minutes per episode for a minor incremental cost by simply writing each segment to be a minute or two longer and not rushing through everything so quickly.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

DevdogAZ said:


> But that's my point, the footage is probably already there. Each conversation could have a couple more lines of dialogue. Each establishing shot could last a few more seconds. Each fight sequence could be edited to last a little longer. Sure, making a 90 minute episode would cost more. But it wouldn't need to cost 50% more. They could probably add 30 minutes per episode for a minor incremental cost by simply writing each segment to be a minute or two longer and not rushing through everything so quickly.


So, as a video editor with some professional experience I can tell you that typically it's a ten or eight to one editing proposition, footage to final edited video. Typically, it takes 60-120 minutes of footage to produce 4-8 minutes of edited video. I just edited a fashion shoot at Bloomingdales and we shot almost 80 minutes, of which we used about 6 minutes in the final video.

So, it really is typical to have lots of footage shot, but large portions are left on the editing floor (so to speak), and only a small amount ends up in the final video.

Can't say for sure how much was shot, but just giving you all some realistic numbers for footage shot vs. footage used.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

robojerk said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The books are written from character's point of view, but there are not any chapters in books 1-3 with Robb's POV. They are told from the point of view from someone with him, or near him (like Cat). That's why we usually mention Cat. We read her inner thoughts, and know what she is thinking. With Robb we know what others saw, or heard what he said..


Gotcha thanks for clearing that up! :up:


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mm2margaret said:


> So, as a video editor with some professional experience I can tell you that typically it's a ten or eight to one editing proposition, footage to final edited video. Typically, it takes 60-120 minutes of footage to produce 4-8 minutes of edited video. I just edited a fashion shoot at Bloomingdales and we shot almost 80 minutes, of which we used about 6 minutes in the final video.
> 
> So, it really is typical to have lots of footage shot, but large portions are left on the editing floor (so to speak), and only a small amount ends up in the final video.
> 
> Can't say for sure how much was shot, but just giving you all some realistic numbers for footage shot vs. footage used.


But is that the case for something scripted? When you're shooting a live event, you keep the cameras rolling and then afterward you distill it down based on what kind of things you were able to capture.

But for a scripted shoot where every scene is detailed in the script and every word is written, I doubt they're shooting 30 minutes of footage for a 3-minute conversation, or at least they're not shooting 30 minutes of _different_ footage. They might shoot the same scene three different times to get different lighting angles, plus another couple wide shots for coverage, so they may very well have 30 minutes of raw footage for a 3-minute conversation, but that's not all footage that could be edited together to make the episode longer.

If the script calls for a conversation that's three minutes and they shoot it that way, then in the editing bay they may decide that 30 seconds of that conversation is unnecessary and they edit it out. That's the type of stuff I'm talking about. The editors wouldn't have to trim stuff like that. Multiply that decision by 10-15x per episode and you end up with a much longer episode that tells more story without seeming like it's jumping around all the time and not ever finishing what should be told at each location.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

If GoT characters had Facebook.

http://www.happyplace.com/22775/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-1


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## Mr. Merkin (May 6, 2005)

robojerk said:


> At the end of season 2, Sam was no where near the wall.. He was/is very far north of it. I'm guessing the WWs/wights passed him by, or he ran away from their march... Thats why the Lord Commander was pissed for Sam not sending the ravens to warn the Wall about what they just saw.


No, if I recall correctly they were not far from the wall. I think you could even see it when the other two ran off and you could see it when the walkers marched. How far out could they be with just a shovel and a bucket and nothing else?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Mr. Merkin said:


> No, if I recall correctly they were not far from the wall. I think you could even see it when the other two ran off and you could see it when the walkers marched. How far out could they be with just a shovel and a bucket and nothing else?


No, they'd been north of the Wall for several days. Remember they first went to Craster's place where John saw him offer a son as a sacrifice to a white walker. And then the Nights Watch group continued on from there for a few days before they reached the Fist and John was separated from the group. So I think Sam was quite a long way from the Wall at the beginning of this episode.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

robojerk said:


> If GoT characters had Facebook.
> 
> http://www.happyplace.com/22775/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-1


If GoT happened in high school instead of Westeros:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY6dvlMfntw&list=PLYRxBw6QnHizkjkyLBKTfoMeN7vf-Nzrz[/media]

(there are three episodes)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mr. Merkin said:


> No, if I recall correctly they were not far from the wall. I think you could even see it when the other two ran off and you could see it when the walkers marched. How far out could they be with just a shovel and a bucket and nothing else?


You may be thinking of some mountains that were looming in the background.

They are in a mountain range, far north of the Wall.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Mr. Merkin said:


> One thing I didn't understand was Cersei expressing concern about Tyrion spreading "rumors" to Tywin about her and Joffrey and Jamie. I mean aren't those rumors pretty much public knowledge by now? I mean Ned wrote that letter to Stannis and publicly questioned Joffrey's legitimacy to the throne and was beheaded for that, hasn't the word gotten out by now? I thought that made no sense. Also, the final scene with scores of White Walkers and Wights descending on the wall was a very different picture than how it opened with Sam out in the open and one leftover Wight with an axe. What happened to the others? They lost motivation and went home? Didn't make sense to me. This show is obviously more tightly written than the Walking Dead but those two points stood out to me.


I don't think she was talking about the rumors about her and Jaime. But he could have told their father about her and the cousin, or her ordering his murder on the battlefield, or any of the other horrible things she did.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

I think many of my favorite scenes continue to be the ones between two characters. This week I loved the scenes between Tyrion and Cersei, Tyrion and Tywin, and even Dany and Jorah. Last season I think I watched every scene between Arya and Tywin multiple times.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

DevdogAZ said:


> But is that the case for something scripted? When you're shooting a live event, you keep the cameras rolling and then afterward you distill it down based on what kind of things you were able to capture.
> 
> But for a scripted shoot where every scene is detailed in the script and every word is written, I doubt they're shooting 30 minutes of footage for a 3-minute conversation, or at least they're not shooting 30 minutes of _different_ footage. They might shoot the same scene three different times to get different lighting angles, plus another couple wide shots for coverage, so they may very well have 30 minutes of raw footage for a 3-minute conversation, but that's not all footage that could be edited together to make the episode longer.
> 
> If the script calls for a conversation that's three minutes and they shoot it that way, then in the editing bay they may decide that 30 seconds of that conversation is unnecessary and they edit it out. That's the type of stuff I'm talking about. The editors wouldn't have to trim stuff like that. Multiply that decision by 10-15x per episode and you end up with a much longer episode that tells more story without seeming like it's jumping around all the time and not ever finishing what should be told at each location.


No, whether its scripted or not makes no difference. In a scripted scene, for instance, even on small budget shows, you'll have two, three, four or more cameras shooting the same scene so that you can have the same scene with different characters point of view. This gives someone like me lots of options so that they can choose the right cuts for the moment. So actually the total footage shot is probably even greater....


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

With regard to extra footage, I know from recent interviews with the showrunners that they had several scenes with Brienne/Jaime and then Bran that were filmed but then moved to the 2nd episode because of space/pacing/tonal concerns, so clearly they shoot *some* extra scenes.


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## Vendikarr (Feb 24, 2004)

I have not read the books, so I don't know if this is to come, but when Tyrion stormed out, it did not look like he was going to take no for an answer.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

The question really isn't how much additional footage is shot, it's how much additional footage is available that would add to the story. There's no question that aiming for 90 minute episodes would add to the production cost. The question that HBO has to ask if whether or not those additional 30 minutes would make the show more profitable or less profitable. I have no idea if they have looked at that or not, but I'm guessing that they are staying at ~60 minutes for a reason.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> With regard to extra footage, I know from recent interviews with the showrunners that they had several scenes with Brienne/Jaime and then Bran that were filmed but then moved to the 2nd episode because of space/pacing/tonal concerns, so clearly they shoot *some* extra scenes.


Those aren't so much "extra" in that they were part of what was planned, they just moved them to a different episode. So they still aren't extra, as in left over, as we did see them.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Azlen said:


> The question that HBO has to ask if whether or not those additional 30 minutes would make the show more profitable or less profitable. I have no idea if they have looked at that or not, but I'm guessing that they are staying at ~60 minutes for a reason.


I can't think of a way it would make it more profitable given that there aren't any commercials.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

The extra footage would only be available on the DVDs.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Kablemodem said:


> The extra footage would only be available on the DVDs.


Which I believe are already priced about as high as the market will bear.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

zordude said:


> I can't think of a way it would make it more profitable given that there aren't any commercials.


More people subscribing, higher retention rates, more DVD/Blu-ray/digital media sales. The question is would 90 minute episodes grow the audience, shrink the audience or have no impact on the size of the audience. 
Also if they were to increase the production budget, is a longer episode where they want to spend their money. There definitely other things that the money could go to.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mm2margaret said:


> No, whether its scripted or not makes no difference. In a scripted scene, for instance, even on small budget shows, you'll have two, three, four or more cameras shooting the same scene so that you can have the same scene with different characters point of view. This gives someone like me lots of options so that they can choose the right cuts for the moment. So actually the total footage shot is probably even greater....


You made the same point I did in the post you replied to. There is plenty of extra raw footage, but you can't edit together multiple angles of a conversation and make the conversation longer. In order for the extra footage to be useful for lengthening the episode, it has to be of additional stuff, not duplicates of the same stuff.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Azlen said:


> More people subscribing, higher retention rates, more DVD/Blu-ray/digital media sales.


Do you really think there are people out there who might be interested in the show but refuse to watch it only because it's too short?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> No, they'd been north of the Wall for several days. Remember they first went to Craster's place where John saw him offer a son as a sacrifice to a white walker. And then the Nights Watch group continued on from there for a few days before they reached the Fist and John was separated from the group. So I think Sam was quite a long way from the Wall at the beginning of this episode.


Yes, that's correct. And what might help give some perspective to it is HBO's map:

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/season3/#!/locations/fist-of-the-first-men/


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Mr. Merkin said:


> Also, the final scene with scores of White Walkers and Wights descending on the wall was a very different picture than how it opened with Sam out in the open and one leftover Wight with an axe. What happened to the others? They lost motivation and went home? Didn't make sense to me. This show is obviously more tightly written than the Walking Dead but those two points stood out to me.


Aside from the fact they were at The Fist of the First Men (and not the Wall), I thought that the opening sequence (when the screen was all black) made it sort of clear. End of season 2, the white walkers were approaching the First of the First Men. In the opening of Season 3, we heard the sound of screams and clanking swords. Then the men of the Nights Watch rescue Sam from that wight, but they appear to be bloody. It would seem the white walkers attacked and lost (or else the Nights Watch somehow retreated from the battle)


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I was just reading through HBO's viewers guide updates for this episode. I had been wondering since last season who the Brotherhood was that kept getting mentioned at Harrenhall. I think a few other people here were confused about it, and I never heard an explanation. Well, here is what the viewer's guide says:

THE BROTHERHOOD WITHOUT BANNERS
A group of outlaws, they answer to Lord Beric Dondarrion, who was tasked by Ned Stark, then Hand of the King, to bring Gregor Clegane to justice. With Joffrey Baratheon's ascension to the throne, Lord Beric's men became a guerilla force, sabotaging the Lannisters' Riverlands forces at every opportunity.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Do you really think there are people out there who might be interested in the show but refuse to watch it only because it's too short?


No I don't and that's why I don't think they'll be making 90 minute episodes any time soon.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I believe each episode this year will be closer to an hour. I recall that one of the producers said that we would get 5-10 minutes extra for each episode in season 3 (relative to seasons 1 and 2). In effect, we will be getting the equivalent of 2 extra episodes crammed into the usual 10.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

On this 60 or 90 minute episodes...perhaps 60 minutes is just the drama sweet spot. People are really busy, there's so much competition, and it's so easy to download and watch so much more TV than we used to. If they went to 90 minute episodes (and remember, this is a full 90...or 87, whatever...no ads), do you think some people who are not die hards like us might not even give it a chance, or give up on it, simply because they don't have the time to devote to it? I know from my standpoint, very often when there are elongated episodes of shows I like, I might not "get to it" right away, since I don't always have that block of time available. Hence, why I have about 40 movies saved up to watch. Finding a 2 or 2 1/2 hour block is difficult. And GoT is not one of those shows you want to watch in 10-15 clips at a time. It's kind of why I wonder where people on this thread find the time to watch each episode 2-3 times. I can barely make it through one week watching all the stuff I like, watching sports, or the occasional movie. I've been wanting to do a rewatch of Lost for 3 years now, and I just can't find the time to give to it.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I'd be happy if they did a behind the scenes/bonus scenes/bloopers/interviews show at the end of each season.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> On this 60 or 90 minute episodes...perhaps 60 minutes is just the drama sweet spot. People are really busy, there's so much competition, and it's so easy to download and watch so much more TV than we used to. If they went to 90 minute episodes (and remember, this is a full 90...or 87, whatever...no ads), do you think some people who are not die hards like us might not even give it a chance, or give up on it, simply because they don't have the time to devote to it? I know from my standpoint, very often when there are elongated episodes of shows I like, I might not "get to it" right away, since I don't always have that block of time available. Hence, why I have about 40 movies saved up to watch. Finding a 2 or 2 1/2 hour block is difficult. And GoT is not one of those shows you want to watch in 10-15 clips at a time. It's kind of why I wonder where people on this thread find the time to watch each episode 2-3 times. I can barely make it through one week watching all the stuff I like, watching sports, or the occasional movie. I've been wanting to do a rewatch of Lost for 3 years now, and I just can't find the time to give to it.


Good point! Often, I have a mix of 30, 60, and 120+ minute shows to watch, and I usually start with the short ones because the longer shows "feel" more overwhelming. And I DO normally watch the 2+ hour movies in pieces because I seldom have that long at one time.

I was late with GoT this week due to a busy stretch, but when I finally saw it, I had the "it's over already?" feeling that others have mentioned. But it really does take an hour (or 57 minutes) out of what can be a busy life.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

allan said:


> Good point! Often, I have a mix of 30, 60, and 120+ minute shows to watch, and I usually start with the short ones because the longer shows "feel" more overwhelming. And I DO normally watch the 2+ hour movies in pieces because I seldom have that long at one time.
> 
> I was late with GoT this week due to a busy stretch, but when I finally saw it, I had the "it's over already?" feeling that others have mentioned. But it really does take an hour (or 57 minutes) out of what can be a busy life.


Yep, it is the fastest hour on TV right now. I tend to look at the status bar quite often and the first time I looked with this ep was at the 45 min mark. Pretty cool. But we are the junkies. Someone who likes the show, but not love it might think twice about watching if it was 90 minutes.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I'd be happy if they did a behind the scenes/bonus scenes/bloopers/interviews show at the end of each season.


I don't recall what was on the season 1 bluray, but the season 2 bluray has a pretty cool behind the scenes, with a lot of info about the blackwater episode. There was also a roundtable discussion with a few of the actors/actresses.


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## gschrock (Dec 28, 2001)

zordude said:


> Which I believe are already priced about as high as the market will bear.


Actually, I feel the dvd's/blurays of this show have been pretty reasonable so far. I got blurays of the first season for $35, and don't think I paid anymore than that for the second season. For a tv show, that's pretty decent, and by the way that hbo used to price their series far sale, it's a steal.


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