# Bolt & Comcast & moca



## Chris Cardone (Aug 11, 2017)

I am new. How do I set up moca? I'm in the process of setting up Bolt with Comcast. I also have 2 new Minis. Comcast signal comes in via coax. Coax goes to Modem/router. Ethernet goes from modem/router to Bolt. Since the coax is already going from wall to modem, how does coax also go to Bolt? Do I just use a 2x1 splitter: 1 from wall and the 2 go to modem and bolt?


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Yes. Use a splitter. Since you're using MoCA, make sure you get splitters rated for a fairly high frequency. I use 2.4gHz. The last batch I obtained seemed to be rated to 3gHz. You can probably be OK with a splitter rated even as low as 1gHz.

Use the POE filter. It really does help.

Does your Router support MoCa? Many of the Comcast Routers do, but it needs to be turned on in the settings. If your router doesn't, you'll need to use the Bolt as a 'Bridge' or obtain another MoCA adapter at the router. 

I recently had an issue on 1 install where Comcast would periodically 'sweep' through and re-disable MoCA. We finally bought a MoCA equipped modem to stop that.

You'll probably need to connect your Mini's with Coax, too. So probably a 3 or 4 port splitter? Unless you've got Ethernet run to the Mini's?

-KP


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

kpeters59 said:


> Yes. Use a splitter. Since you're using MoCA, make sure you get splitters rated for a fairly high frequency. I use 2.4gHz. The last batch I obtained seemed to be rated to 3gHz. You can probably be OK with a splitter rated even as low as 1gHz.
> 
> Use the POE filter. It really does help.
> 
> ...


2.4MGz splitters are no better than a standard 5-1002MGz one as far as MoCA is concerned. The only splitters which will improve MoCA signals are the ones from Verizon or Holland which are specifically Rated for MoCA and optimized to pass the MoCA frequencies more easily(lower port isolation). I would simply try to use what you have already in place but if you have issues connecting or intermittent MoCA signals, get the proper splitters for the job. Here is a source, Cable and Satellite Tools - Distributor of Tools for CATV, Satellite, Home Theater, Security, Telecom The same outfit sells MoCA filters.
If you are using one of Comcast's gateways, many have MoCA capability but getting it enabled and keeping it enabled are sometimes problematic. If it is a feature of your gateway, try searching in the settings for the MoCA and see if you can enable it. If it keeps getting turned off then try calling Comcast support and see if you can get your modem/gateway "white listed". If you don't want to be bothered with that, you can use the Bolt to create your MoCA network, but you are likely to get a bogus error message when you do, just ignore it and try using the MoCA.


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## Chris Cardone (Aug 11, 2017)

kpeters59 said:


> Yes. Use a splitter. Since you're using MoCA, make sure you get splitters rated for a fairly high frequency. I use 2.4gHz. The last batch I obtained seemed to be rated to 3gHz. You can probably be OK with a splitter rated even as low as 1gHz.
> 
> Use the POE filter. It really does help.
> 
> ...


The tech did install a POE filter. Bolt messaged that there was a problem setting up MoCA. I hooked up a mini in another room, and I got the same message. Two questions:
1) Coax comes from the wall to modem/router (m/r), so I split 1 to 2. One going to m/r, the other to Bolt. Does Bolt and splitter know to send messages back through SAME coax to rest of house? Are all splitters bi-directional? (My splitter is an Onn digital 5-2500mkz.
2) Are all the coax inside my house hooked together? In the box in my garage (POA), there are all these coax cables attached to nothing. Do I have to split the live coax from Comcast with a 1:3 splitter (the three rooms I plan to use Tivo)? If so, what specs do I need on that splitter? Will the integrity of the primary signal still be intact if I do this?


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

I would expect that "all" your coax's are not "attached to nothing". Surely (at a minimum) the coax feeding the room with your Router and (apparently) your TiVo are connected to the line feeding Comcast in from the Pole (Service in)?

You'd need to determine which rooms will also have TiVo's (Mini's?) and make connections in the box for them. That's where the 3(?) port splitter will go. Service In on the 'input' of the splitter (With the POE Filter on it, too) and the 3 rooms on the outputs. Then, you'll (apparently) need a 2-port splitter at the TiVo/Router location, too.

My experience is that splitting the Comcast signal for a 3 port and then again a 2 port splitter will not have a negligible effect on the signal. YMMV. Remember, only the TiVo and the Router will actually 'need' Comcast signal. The Mini's will only 'leech' off the TiVo via MoCA.

Again, use a high quality splitter that will pass the MoCA signal. It runs in the 1100mHz to 1500mHz range. Typically, TiVo's will use the lowest frequency signal, Ch 15, around 1100mHz. Maybe fcfc2 is correct that only splitters that have MoCA stamped on them are correct. I doubt it, but could be. You should try what you have and improve from there, if necessary.

In your garage wiring panel, is there Ethernet wire (cat 5 or 6), too? The Mini's could be connected that way, too, but that's another discussion.

-KP


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## Chris Cardone (Aug 11, 2017)

kpeters59 said:


> I would expect that "all" your coax's are not "attached to nothing". Surely (at a minimum) the coax feeding the room with your Router and (apparently) your TiVo are connected to the line feeding Comcast in from the Pole (Service in)?
> 
> You'd need to determine which rooms will also have TiVo's (Mini's?) and make connections in the box for them. That's where the 3(?) port splitter will go. Service In on the 'input' of the splitter (With the POE Filter on it, too) and the 3 rooms on the outputs. Then, you'll (apparently) need a 2-port splitter at the TiVo/Router location, too.
> 
> ...


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## Chris Cardone (Aug 11, 2017)

Only my one room (where my Bolt is) is hooked to the ISP coax. To go from 1 to 3 at the box, will using two 1 to 2 splitters be OK? (No ethernet in box). You've been a big help-Thanks!


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

fcfc2 said:


> 2.4MGz splitters are no better than a standard 5-1002MGz one as far as MoCA is concerned. The only splitters which will improve MoCA signals are the ones from Verizon or Holland which are specifically Rated for MoCA and optimized to pass the MoCA frequencies more easily(lower port isolation).


Well, no. MoCA on a TiVO uses frequencies in the 1125-1675 MHz range, so there's no guarantee that the common 5-1002 MHz (not "MGz") ones will pass MoCA. Port isolation doesn't matter a whole lot because the PoE filter reflects the signal, so the insertion loss (which is pretty much the same for all n-port splitters) is what really matters.

Here's a good reference. Refer to pages 20 and 21.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

Chris Cardone said:


> The tech did install a POE filter. Bolt messaged that there was a problem setting up MoCA. I hooked up a mini in another room, and I got the same message. Two questions:
> 1) Coax comes from the wall to modem/router (m/r), so I split 1 to 2. One going to m/r, the other to Bolt. Does Bolt and splitter know to send messages back through SAME coax to rest of house? Are all splitters bi-directional? (My splitter is an Onn digital 5-2500mkz.
> 2) Are all the coax inside my house hooked together? In the box in my garage (POA), there are all these coax cables attached to nothing. Do I have to split the live coax from Comcast with a 1:3 splitter (the three rooms I plan to use Tivo)? If so, what specs do I need on that splitter? Will the integrity of the primary signal still be intact if I do this?


All splitters are bidirectional so it's not a concern. Having all your coax on one and the same coax network is a concern as you MoCA or anything else for that matter. How many outlets do you have in your home, and how many are a "bunch". One of these testers or similar can help you trace unmarkered coax lines and a bit of colored tape can be used to simi-permently mark them for the future. 
https://www.amazon.com/DIGIPARTS-Po...&sr=8-4&keywords=Coax+signal+and+Cable+tester 
If that initial 3 way is not sufficient for all your needs, you might then consider getting one of the recommended versions with sufficient ports even if you too have doubts. Without some kind of tester, trial and error is your only option.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Chris Cardone said:


> Only my one room (where my Bolt is) is hooked to the ISP coax. To go from 1 to 3 at the box, will using two 1 to 2 splitters be OK? (No ethernet in box). You've been a big help-Thanks!


Well, that's not my 1st choice (or 2nd or 3rd...) but, as I said...try what you got and go from there...

Home Depot and Lowes probably have splitters (again, NOT my 1st choice...), as well as Radio Shack.

Do any of the rooms, by chance, have 2 coax runs? If possible, I'd prefer a single splitter in the garage feeding everything, even if they're in the same room.

-KP


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

m.s said:


> Well, no. MoCA on a TiVO uses frequencies in the 1125-1675 MHz range, so there's no guarantee that the common 5-1002 MHz (not "MGz") ones will pass MoCA. Port isolation doesn't matter a whole lot because the PoE filter reflects the signal, so the insertion loss (which is pretty much the same for all n-port splitters) is what really matters.
> 
> Here's a good reference. Refer to pages 20 and 21.


Actually that otherwise great link, proves absolutely nothing about a comparison between standard splitters vs those that have been specifically designed and engineered/ optimized to work better at the MoCA frequencies. Your assumption that all splitters are designed to have the same port isolation across their entire frequency range is true only for non-MoCA rated splitters. While the use of a properly positioned MoCA filter does improve/strengthen the MoCA signal, and while this would probably be enough for most any home with "home run" types of coax wiring, many if not the majority are not run that way, they often have a series of other (mostly standard) splitters downline, often hidden in walls etc. It is in these more typical homes that folks tend to have more problems with splitters/MoCA setups. Unfortunately with the increase in use (whole home DVR systems) and awareness, many manufacturers have taken to adding the terms "MoCA or MoCA compatible" to their product descriptions leading the unwary to think that they are somehow better for MoCA use. I confronted one of these guys on Amazon and pointedly asked if their MoCA terms mean that their splitters were in any way shape or form "optimized" for MoCA, the answer was a vague "well MoCA worked" in our testing, later, the my post and answer somehow disappeared.
If I hadn't done some fairly extensive testing with various splitters myself and dug for quite some time to find some clues as to what was causing the MoCA rated splitters to have better throughput, that I found references to "reduced port isolation at the MoCA frequencies".
If you had been hanging around these forums for the last several years, you would have seen several anechodotal reports of folks having trouble with various splitters, new and old, who finally tried the MoCA rated ones and were successful.
The OP's problem, I suspect, is most likely to be a simple incomplete coax network and he is likely to be successful once he figures out which cables go where.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

fcfc2 said:


> Actually that otherwise great link, proves absolutely nothing about a comparison between standard splitters vs those that have been specifically designed and engineered/ optimized to work better at the MoCA frequencies. Your assumption that all splitters are designed to have the same port isolation across their entire frequency range is true only for non-MoCA rated splitters.


I neither said nor assumed any such thing. And, you're still wrong about splitter bandwidth.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

m.s said:


> I neither said nor assumed any such thing. And, you're still wrong about splitter bandwidth.


Yes, there is nothing like a "you're wrong and I'm right" to clarify such things. Have you actually done any extensive testing of MoCA/network speeds with various brands of splitters, including several brands of sat grade versions with ranges over 2GHz? I am going to guess no. 
Here is a quote from the MoCA Alliance regarding the development of MoCA, "In 2005, the Alliance conducted tests of MoCA 1.0 in 250 homes throughout the US and verified better than 100 Mbps net throughputs in 97 percent of all outlets. The same data rate was achieved in 100 percent of outlets with *minor remediation to the in-home network*." Do you know what that minor remediation often was? It was upgrading various no-name-rated splitters with "new" splitters then currently available 5-1002MHz. Sometimes it involve other things like replacing older crimp type connectors and occasionally rerun some coax or some combination. The fact is that MoCA usually works on most all of the readily available splitters until or unless they don't, usually because of what I have already described, i.e., "cascaded splitters". 
While it is true that there is "no guarantee" that the 5-1002MHz rated splitters will pass MoCA effectively, they obviously do in many situations, in fact, most. But when they don't work or become intermittent, there are numerous reports that using the MoCA rated splitters have been successful, even when replacements like the typical 2GHz+ ones have failed to remedy their situations.
You may swap out an older 5-1002MHz rated splitters with one of the 2GHz+ ones and be successful but that doesn't guarantee it is because the splitter has a higher rating, it's newer and may simply be a better quality or not degraded/corroded and may have started working by replacing it with a new, different brand with the same rating. Once again, try what you have. If you have problems and want to try replacing splitters why not go with the one's actually rated for use with MoCA and have a consistent track record for being successful.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

Sorry, I didn't realize you knew so little about CATV. Yes, quality CATV 5-1002 MHz splitters have a better chance of working with MoCA than earlier department store 54-890 MHz (VHF/FM/UHF) ones made cheap for use with antennas. It should also come as no surprise that ones designed to pass the higher MoCA frequencies are even more likely to work well. Your claim that "2.4MGz splitters are no better than a standard 5-1002MGz one as far as MoCA is concerned" is simply wrong.


> You may swap out an older 5-1002MHz rated splitters with one of the 2GHz+ ones and be successful but that doesn't guarantee it is because the splitter has a higher rating, it's newer and may simply be a better quality or not degraded/corroded...


And I really don't have the time or inclination to educate you on basic RF and CATV technology. I spent over a week in formal training on two-way CATV technology, the basis for MoCA. I have a Amateur Extra Class radio license. You've obviously learned by Googling around. How exactly is this "better quality" you mention reflected in the specifications? Feel free to provide a link pointing to one of these 5-1002 MHz, made for MoCA splitters you seem to think exist. Then explain how they are "optimized to pass the MoCA frequencies more easily(lower port isolation)" if they're not rated higher than 1002 MHz. It would be the first actual reference you've provided.

I'll provide another reference - "*MoCA Technology, Installation Best Practices for a Home Network"*, straight from the source, MoCA itself, which says "It is important for good MoCA connectivity that a splitter with adequate frequency range be utilized" and with regard to PoE filters, "The advantage is that a MoCA signal going from an output port to another output port on a 2-port splitter without a POE filter will have the port isolation loss of typically 20 dB. But if a POE filter is installed on the input port of the splitter, the reflected signal would only have a 7 dB loss (35 dB from output port to input, then 3.5 dB from the input port to output port after being reflected by the POE filter)."

I'll note here that the Holland "MoCA Series" splitters you referenced have a specified max port isolation at MoCA frequencies of 25 dB, which is worse than the typical 20 dB mentioned by MoCA above.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Hey, y'all...maybe give Chris a break?

Every time something like this come up on TCF there's a pissing match about it and Chris just wants his TiVo to work...

There's a similar discussion having gone on for too long, if Chris desires to know that much:

Setting up a MoCA Network for Tivo

-KP


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

m.s said:


> Sorry, I didn't realize you knew so little about CATV. Yes, quality CATV 5-1002 MHz splitters have a better chance of working with MoCA than earlier department store 54-890 MHz (VHF/FM/UHF) ones made cheap for use with antennas. It should also come as no surprise that ones designed to pass the higher MoCA frequencies are even more likely to work well. Your claim that "2.4MGz splitters are no better than a standard 5-1002MGz one as far as MoCA is concerned" is simply wrong.And I really don't have the time or inclination to educate you on basic RF and CATV technology. I spent over a week in formal training on two-way CATV technology, the basis for MoCA. I have a Amateur Extra Class radio license. You've obviously learned by Googling around. How exactly is this "better quality" you mention reflected in the specifications? Feel free to provide a link pointing to one of these 5-1002 MHz, made for MoCA splitters you seem to think exist. Then explain how they are "optimized to pass the MoCA frequencies more easily(lower port isolation)" if they're not rated higher than 1002 MHz. It would be the first actual reference you've provided.
> 
> I'll provide another reference - "*MoCA Technology, Installation Best Practices for a Home Network"*, straight from the source, MoCA itself, which says "It is important for good MoCA connectivity that a splitter with adequate frequency range be utilized" and with regard to PoE filters, "The advantage is that a MoCA signal going from an output port to another output port on a 2-port splitter without a POE filter will have the port isolation loss of typically 20 dB. But if a POE filter is installed on the input port of the splitter, the reflected signal would only have a 7 dB loss (35 dB from output port to input, then 3.5 dB from the input port to output port after being reflected by the POE filter)."
> 
> I'll note here that the Holland "MoCA Series" splitters you referenced have a specified max port isolation at MoCA frequencies of 25 dB, which is worse than the typical 20 dB mentioned by MoCA above.


Well once again, you are pretty handy with the snide insults but you simply lack practical experience with actually using and testing these devices. Most of my knowledge of the subject is a result of both reading most everything provided by the MoCA Alliance and any other sources of the available data I could find, along with actual testing of numerous brands of splitters regarding their performance when using MoCA, a fact which you conviently ignored in your posts. Never actually did any I still surmise.
Just to clarify, I never did I say, mention, or suggest that standard 5-1002MHz splitters were "optimized" for use with MoCA. The fact is that that what I responded to was that the assumption was that getting one of those 2GHz+ splitters was the "best" for MoCA, when their have been more than a few posts from people who have tried them and not been successful when using them on a troublesome MoCA setup and who then went on with one of the MoCA rated brands and were successful. 
What I did was get my test results first and then try to make sense of the results. The Verizon and Holland, the only ones I could find with a "MoCA rating" performed the best on the network speed tests, but all the splitters I tested worked just not as fast as these MoCA rated ones. I searched for the "reasons" for these experiences and the clues / data were scarce to say the least, I found that same data for the Holland brand that you mention but use to support an erroneous conclusion. Yes it is likely that the difference in the MoCA rated splitters is likely that "lower port isolation at the MoCA frequencies" which gives the improved result. You reference the mention that the "recommended" or ideal port isolation is 20dB while the Holland specs say they provide 25dB's and seem to reach the conclusion that therefore there is no benefit to using the MoCA rated splitters. The question is do any of those others splitters even give you the specs on the "port isolation at the MoCA frequencies" and are they lower then the published data for the Holland version?? Thinking that the posted 25dB in the MoCA specs is not ideal but the issue is compared to what, the ordinary port isolation on standard splitters?
The fact is your whole week long course maybe simply did not make you an expert on all things MoCA especially lacking is a lot of practical experience and actual testing. 
I will simply suggest that you go about doing exactly what I did, buy as many different pairs of splitters as you can find including the Sat rated ones and then design and test the actual network throughput between 2 MoCA links. I used 2 way splitters with various types of configurations but settled on 2 daisy chained via their outputs from 2 separate MoCA devices connected to computers both with gigabit ports and SSD's. I used that configuration to try and maximize the port to port isolation issue. 
I would suggest and appreciate if you could hold off with an further rude insults and wait until you actually did some real world testing to comment further.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

So, that's a "No!"?

-KP


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

kpeters59 said:


> Hey, y'all...maybe give Chris a break?
> 
> Every time something like this come up on TCF there's a pissing match about it and Chris just wants his TiVo to work...
> 
> ...


Sorry, I was responding while you were posting. You are probably correct. This issue has come up in the past with some folks but apparently it resurfaces from time to time with relatively new folks who missed the discussions. I try not to be rude and insulting but it is a temptation with some folks. I will not respond publically on this thread any longer and use a pm if I can't resist further comments. Thanks for your patience.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Public response would probably be fine, but maybe if you'd just replied that "port isolation is an important factor when considering splitters in a MoCA installation", it would have been adequate. Also, our messages were 45 minutes apart, so...

FTR, I went and pulled a couple of the 2.4gHz and 3.0 gHz splitters I had in the truck and the Veracom's are rated as a 15db Port Isolation and the Direct Connect I haven't been able to locate that data yet, but I expect them to be similar.

Chris, make sure that all the connections are good and tight, as I've found that on a couple repair calls, that connections at wallplates and such were loose and tightening them up helped.

-KP


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

fcfc2 said:


> Most of my knowledge of the subject is a result of both reading most everything provided by the MoCA Alliance and any other sources of the available data I could find


You missed this: "3.5 Splitter Selection - The primary factor to consider is the frequency bandwidth of the splitter." - ibid. Reading doesn't imply understanding.


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## Chris Cardone (Aug 11, 2017)

kpeters59 said:


> Hey, y'all...maybe give Chris a break?
> 
> Every time something like this come up on TCF there's a pissing match about it and Chris just wants his TiVo to work...
> 
> ...


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## Chris Cardone (Aug 11, 2017)

I'm not interested in that stuff about the splitters (though I have got the ones that are rated at least 2300). OK. I set up the splitter in the garage cable box, but I still get the "C33 MoCA Network Problem" when I try to set up the BOLT as the Bridge. I have the cable guy coming out tomorrow, but any other help with this specific issue would be appreciated. I'm concerned that the cable guy is going to simply tell me that it's a Tivo issue that's out of his hands...


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

I stayed in a holiday inn express last night. Ask me anything about a moca chino. Going to side with fcfc on this. And quite frankly attemping to brag about a one week class and whatever else you may have just makes you sound childish and not knowledgeable


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

There appears to be a bug in the setup of the Bolt as a MoCA bridge:

Major problem with 2 new Bolts

It's apparently a 'fake' error.

The important part of the splitter discussion is that 'port isolation' matters. You need low port isolation, because the MoCA devices do need to be able to talk to each other.

The other important part is that a MoCA POE Filter can make a 3-fold improvement in signal level back in to the coax when it is used, so it's important, too.

-KP


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## Chris Cardone (Aug 11, 2017)

kpeters59 said:


> There appears to be a bug in the setup of the Bolt as a MoCA bridge:
> 
> Major problem with 2 new Bolts
> 
> ...


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## Chris Cardone (Aug 11, 2017)

WOW! It worked. Thanks for the heads up. I can't believe there is such a huge glitch in the new Bolt! Everyone: THE C33 ERROR IS BOGUS. YOU ACTUALLY DID SET UP MOCA USING BOLT AS THE BRIDGE!!! IGNORE THE "C33 PROBLEM" MESSAGE, AND GO TO YOUR MINI AND SET IT UP PER THE INSTRUCTIONS!!!


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## andydigirolamo (Jan 21, 2021)

I just need a diagram. I'm a very visual type of person. I have 1 bolt and 2 minis'


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

andydigirolamo said:


> I just need a diagram. I'm a very visual type of person. I have 1 bolt and 2 minis'


Diagrams abound. If you want something specific to your setup, you'd need to provide more detail, including TV source and Internet provider types, location of your router and modem (and antenna if applicable) relative to your TiVo boxes, and specific BOLT model #. And you'd want to review how your coax lines interconnect, through what components, to check MoCA compatibility and to identify where you'd need to install the "PoE" MoCA filter (for securing your MoCA signals inside the home).


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