# Software 3.01 on UK boxes?



## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

According to our Antipodean cousins, it's possible to run the 3.01 software on a UK TiVo.

http://www.tuhs.org/twiki/bin/view/Software/LatestTiVoSoftwareVersions

Has anyone here been brave / foolhardy enough to try it? Is there a changelog showing the differences between the version?


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## cleudo (Apr 7, 2002)

You'd lose the guide data though, wouldn't you? And if it did successfully connect, wouldn't you be downgraded back to 2.5.5?


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

It would see 2.5.5 as a different version and download it and pend a restart everytime, during the restart it would not change partition as the newly 2.5.5 download would be a older version and it would stay on 3.01..
But if the 3.01 could report as 2.5.5 (or 2.5.5a depending on what the service number is linked to) then it would be ok...

I think I may give this a go on a old drive in a tivo..



Interesting,


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

It is interesting what info is on that site..

Especially as they have a PC running as a guide data providor to the AU tivo's which auto compiles the guide data, and allows the AU tivo's to grab the data via its daily call...

I suppose if UK guide data stops then we would all have no problems or worries, and monthly sub people would actually be &#163;10 PCM better off.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

IIRC, functionally speaking our 2.5.5 and the US's 3.0 were broadly the same? The US didn't have 2.5, they went straight from 2.0 to 3.0.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> IIRC, functionally speaking our 2.5.5 and the US's 3.0 were broadly the same? The US didn't have 2.5, they went straight from 2.0 to 3.0.


But letting UK Tivo S1 owners also have V3 of the software would have avoided giving the impression that we are the forgotten colonial poor relations of the Tivo empire.

Surely V3.0 must have some significant differences over 2.5.5 to justify a whole version number increment?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Surely V3.0 must have some significant differences over 2.5.5 to justify a whole version number increment?


Would that be another patented Pete77 "fact" then? (Otherwise known as an 'opinion')


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> But letting UK Tivo S1 owners also have V3 of the software would have avoided giving the impression that we are the forgotten colonial poor relations of the Tivo empire.
> 
> Surely V3.0 must have some significant differences over 2.5.5 to justify a whole version number increment?


If memory serves 3.0 in the US and 2.5.5 in the UK were basically the same functionally. It was a release which integrated the codebase between series 1 and series 2 TiVos.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Would that be another patented Pete77 "fact" then? (Otherwise known as an 'opinion')


It was a question seeking a response actually.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> It was a release which integrated the codebase between series 1 and series 2 TiVos.


OK so a similar interface but perhaps harder to hack? But if so why don't the boys in Oz and NZ only exclusively use V2.5.5 and steer clear of V3?


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## bignoise (Oct 7, 2000)

I'm most interested in whether it might be possible to 'hack' the OFFICIAL Australian TiVos (when they're released) for use in the UK. 

Twin DVB-T tuners? With TiVo software? We'll be having more of that please. Please?


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Don't they use a different standard for digital terrestrial TV? So the tuners wouldn't work?


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## bignoise (Oct 7, 2000)

Nope, Australia use DVB-T, MPEG-2, just like the UK do. Which I think bodes well.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

bignoise said:


> Nope, Australia use DVB-T, MPEG-2, just like the UK do. Which I think bodes well.


Yes, it does.

So the only problem could be the service number not being registered on the UK database?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Raisltin Majere said:


> So the only problem could be the service number not being registered on the UK database?


Almost certainly the UK database will not provide EPG updates to software v3.01 and/or the format of the updates will not be compatible with v3.01

Therefore there is no way to obtain legitimate paid EPG service and use software v3.01 in the UK.

They manage it in Oz because they do not use legitimate paid Tivo EPG data.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> and/or the format of the updates will not be compatible with v3.01


Do we know this or are we supposing?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Raisltin Majere said:


> Do we know this or are we supposing?


I would have thought one of our esteemed forum members would have already tried this in the last several years and reported back if they had achieved success.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

This discussion is entirely pointless. Why would anybody *want* to try to use 3.01 on a UK TiVo when it's clearly not supported by TiVo's UK servers and the functional differences in the software are minimal?

Clearly, if we were talking about the latest US verion (is it 9.xxx these days, I lose track) then there would be an advantage to getting it working, but 3.01 vs. 2.5.5 when 3.0 was just a codebase consolidation and 3.01 a bugfix? I think not.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> This discussion is entirely pointless. Why would anybody *want* to try to use 3.01 on a UK TiVo when it's clearly not supported by TiVo's UK servers and the functional differences in the software are minimal?


I am sure if there was a significant advantage in using the 3.0 software and it could be made to actually work on our UK machines that by now it would have happened.

The most likely scenario is the Tivo servers will not release the EPG updates to any machine with a UK Service Number that is running V3.0 or higher. And whilst Service numbers on Tivo S1 UK machines can be amended (although not by legal means) a US service number compatible with software version 3.01 would not then be entitled to receive UK EPG updates but only US ones.

So Catch 22 I fear.

The only way round this is to start our own UK EPG source that does not mind about Version 3.01 software. But no one is going to do this while we still have a legitimate UK Tivo service and thus doing so would constitute service theft.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> I am sure if there was a significant advantage in using the 3.0 software and it could be made to actually work on our UK machines that by now it would have happened.
> 
> The most likely scenario is the Tivo servers will not release the EPG updates to any machine with a UK Service Number that is running V3.0 or higher. And whilst Service numbers on Tivo S1 UK machines can be amended (although not by legal means) a US service number compatible with software version 3.01 would not then be entitled to receive UK EPG updates but only US ones.
> 
> ...


The software number is stored in MFS. I've not tried it, but it wouldn't surprise me if you could just change that entry in MFS and the TiVo would report to base that it had 2.5.5.

I don't believe the Aussies roll-you-own data is different for 2.5.5 or 3.0.1 machines, so that shouldn't be an issue.

But as Blindlemon says, it's pointless.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> The software number is stored in MFS. I've not tried it, but it wouldn't surprise me if you could just change that entry in MFS and the TiVo would report to base that it had 2.5.5.
> 
> But as Blindlemon says, it's pointless.


Have you actually seen a working 3.0 or 3.1 US Tivo box in the USA to be able to confirm that there are absolutely no additional menu options or features?

I'm sure one of our longstanding US forum members who runs a V3.01 S1 machine could confirm that is the case in an instant.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> The only way round this is to start our own UK EPG source that does not mind about Version 3.01 software. But no one is going to do this while we still have a legitimate UK Tivo service and thus doing so would constitute service theft.


SERVICE THEFT....

If I choose to have a utility running on the PC that grabs data from digiguide, and compiles it into a slice for my tivo to download from.. I don't see how I am breaking the law???

The tivo is MINE, and does not belong to TIVO.. If I choose to mod a file and change the IP to my PC for the download of its daily slice, then that is up to me...

I understand talking about the methods is not allowed on this independant site, and I respect this, but it is not service theft.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

I disagree. The "tivo service" includes the functionality, for which you must pay. If you contrive a way of using the functionality without paying tivo then you are, indeed, stealing the service.

Of course, if you choose to continue to pay (or have a life time sub) and decide to get your guide data in the way that you describe, it would not be stealing.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

blindlemon said:


> This discussion is entirely pointless.


And yet you still choose to participate  



blindlemon said:


> Why would anybody *want* to try to use 3.01 on a UK TiVo when it's clearly not supported by TiVo's UK servers and the functional differences in the software are minimal?


Curiosity? Isn't that almost a pre-requisite to be a hacker? where would we be if the original tivo hackers had never thought "I wonder if...".

As it happens, I put the aus image on a hard drive I had lying around, but the hard drive is dead, seemingly so nothing to report .



blindlemon said:


> Clearly, if we were talking about the latest US verion (is it 9.xxx these days, I lose track) then there would be an advantage to getting it working, but 3.01 vs. 2.5.5 when 3.0 was just a codebase consolidation and 3.01 a bugfix? I think not.


you're absolutely right, but nobody has come out and categorically stated this to be the case. Also, nobody has said they have tried it and UK servers rejected any requests.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> SERVICE THEFT....
> 
> If I choose to have a utility running on the PC that grabs data from digiguide, and compiles it into a slice for my tivo to download from.. I don't see how I am breaking the law???
> 
> ...


The TiVo hardware is yours; the TiVo software, like all software, is used by you under LICENCE from TiVo; you don't own it. The terms of the license forbid you from doing what you suggest.

This you wouldn't be breaking the criminal law, but you would be in breach of contract.

You are correct that it isn't "service theft" per se, but you are not free to use software in ways forbidden by its license.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> The TiVo hardware is yours; the TiVo software, like all software, is used by you under LICENCE from TiVo; you don't own it. The terms of the license forbid you from doing what you suggest.
> 
> This you wouldn't be breaking the criminal law, but you would be in breach of contract.
> 
> You are correct that it isn't "service theft" per se, but you are not free to use software in ways forbidden by its license.


Ok, so changing the IP address on the tivo for its daily slice may break some rules re the software and the modification on the tivo software...

But, what if, my router diverted the IP the tivo is trying to contact (Tivo servers) and directed it to the SW running on the PC delivering the digiguide modified slice???.

The tivo software is unmodified in this case???

I understand the subscription to tivo, is to provide guide data and updates, support administration.
Of which I do not require.
Loading my tivo with guide data myself I can not see it breaking the law...

I have started my New Years drinkies, so apologies if this analogy is incorrect.

But I can not see Asda having a issue with me if I decide to get my own cow and produce milk from it to drink rather than using Asda's bottled milk.. Even if I put that milk into a asda beaker I purchased from them for my use... lol.. You have to chuckle, don't ya..


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

But you will be using the functionality, which is a part of the service.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

I think the crux of this is whether there is a *TiVo provided alternative* to DIY listings data.

Clearly, in regions where TiVo don't offer any data then rolling your own is not depriving them of any revenue. However, in the UK where TiVo *do* provide data, using any method to circumvent paying for that data could be considered service theft.

Of course, if the TiVo you were using to do it happened also to have a lifetime sub, then I guess you could argue that you had already paid for the service so what you were doing was just an experiment for your own intellectual stimulaton...


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> Ok, so changing the IP address on the tivo for its daily slice may break some rules re the software and the modification on the tivo software...
> 
> But, what if, my router diverted the IP the tivo is trying to contact (Tivo servers) and directed it to the SW running on the PC delivering the digiguide modified slice???.


Any kind of reverse engineering of TiVo systems is forbidden, and that is clearly necessary in order to create data slices.

Of course all our hacks fall into the same category, including the ones which allow you to get data over the internet!



> But I can not see Asda having a issue with me if I decide to get my own cow and produce milk from it to drink rather than using Asda's bottled milk.. Even if I put that milk into a asda beaker I purchased from them for my use... lol.. You have to chuckle, don't ya..


Software is an entirely different kettle of fish, because you are only buying the right to do some stuff with it under a legal agreement, not actually buying it outright. I suspect Vista would be even more expensive is buying a copy actually meant you owned it!

A closer analogy might be you buying a CD and making a copy for a friend. It's "your" CD, so why shouldn't you do what you want with it?


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## mikeyp (Dec 22, 2005)

Since my Tivo has a lifetime sub I would not consider it to be stealing to obtain tv guide data from an alternate source since tivo would not stand to gain or lose from my activities, as with a lifetime sub I don't ever forsee them asking me for any more money. If however you have a tivo with a monthly sub I would see issues with obtaining guide data from elsewhere.
Since however I have a lifetime sub, till the day tivo stops giving me guide data I see no point in using anything other than the official source of guide data. 

I do however see a technical problem with using the US V 3.0 software. We use SCART here in the UK which allows us to use the RGB connections to our TVs. The americans however do not have scart so can at best use S-video. Wouldn't this mean that our tivos being composite or RGB would be limited to just composite as RGB would not be supported in the US software?


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

My original question was "Is there a changelog showing the differences between the version?"

If 3.01 is merely a code consolidation and a UI change, it's not worth bothering with. If it contains magic software to output 720p and Dolby Digital, then it would be very interesting.

As it happens, it looks like there is nothing significant about 3.01 over 2.5.5 that makes it worth installing, configuring, bug fixing and hacking.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikeyp said:


> If however you have a tivo with a monthly sub I would see issues with obtaining guide data from elsewhere.


Unless you were still paying your monthly sub to Tivo too. In which case there should no more issues involved than for Tivo Lifetime subscribers who choose to source their own data.


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## mikeyp (Dec 22, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> Unless you were still paying your monthly sub to Tivo too. In which case there should no more issues involved than for Tivo Lifetime subscribers who choose to source their own data.


True, but then what's the point?


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

If I buy a 2nd hand one, and provide it with my own data, then as far as I am concerned it is fine.. It is my box to own, not subsidised, and my hardware to do what I wish with.. Simple...

I am suprised that so many are defensive about potecting what rights tivo have over the old software they allow us to use, and that we still pay &#163;10 PCM for development and upgrades...

The only part of our &#163;10 PCM for upgrades goes to the US market.. We are treated like mugs from TiVo Inc US..

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the distribution of Tivo's compiled slices, or cloning service numbers.. But if I choose to compile my own slice (Even if it is automatic) then it is my hardware to do so...

The Aussies have got it right, and as soon as tivo pull out of the UK and compensate all us lifetime owners, we can get on with some real progress with our boxes.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

6022tivo said:


> I am suprised that so many are defensive about potecting what rights tivo have over the old software they allow us to use, and that we still pay £10 PCM for development and upgrades...


Erm... no. It's £10 a month for the EPG and meta-data that makes Tivo do what it does so well; including any dev+upgrades.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

6022tivo said:


> The Aussies have got it right, and as soon as tivo pull out of the UK and compensate all us lifetime owners, we can get on with some real progress with our boxes.


Real progress ? I doubt home-brew guide data would be as good as tribune, programme info would be ok (i.e. radiotimes/digiguide) but not series links etc


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Real progress ? I doubt home-brew guide data would be as good as tribute, programme info would be ok (i.e. radiotimes/digiiguide) but not series links etc


Maybe not, but would be a lot cheaper..

The DEV, UPGRADE part of our £10 (or $20) is not going to DEV, UPGRADE our units.

I think I realise why TiVo are still hanging in on the UK, if people are still happy to pay £10 a month for guide data, when we now have SKY providing it for free, and FREEVIEW providing it for free (Inc series links) then they are just mugging us along.. Guys in the US would not put up with a $20 Monthly fee for what we are getting...

But I suppose it is just the roll over british culture.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

6022tivo said:


> ....when we now have SKY providing it for free, and FREEVIEW providing it for free (Inc series links)....


Yet myself and many others are still opting for paying the money. Maybe we still see value in it. You said yourself in another thread earlier today that you came back to using your Tivo after a year trying to use Sky+.



6022tivo said:


> I used Sky+ for the minimum 12 months before I ditched it with so much joy.....


Also, sky _used_ to charge £10 a month for their recording facility. In fact they only stopped charging it _last year_, after what... five, six years or so?


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

cwaring said:


> Yet myself and many others are still opting for paying the money. Maybe we still see value in it. You said yourself in another thread earlier today that you came back to using your Tivo after a year trying to use Sky+.
> 
> Also, sky _used_ to charge £10 a month for their recording facility. In fact they only stopped charging it _last year_, after what... five, six years or so?


I didcome back, but I would not pay £10 for the data PCM, Sky charged for people not on the top package for a whle which I also thought was a right rip off to be honest.

Trying not to be negative, but depending on what you are using as a source, I don't know why a freeview person would not use a recorder with the series links built in, just for the picture quality, as well as the savings..


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

6022tivo said:


> I did come back, but I would not pay £10 for the data PCM, Sky charged for people not on the top package for a whle which I also thought was a right rip off to be honest.


So you had to either pay a tenner a month _or_ buy some more channels you obviously weren't bothered about or you'd already have them. Some choice  



6022tivo said:


> Trying not to be negative, but depending on what you are using as a source, I don't know why a freeview person would not use a recorder with the series links built in, just for the picture quality, as well as the savings..


Are the Freeview series links as reliable as Tivos (mostly )? I know that VM's V+ aren't. eg the three week break for "Neighbours" has broken that programmes series link!


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## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

I have brought my life-time subbed UK TiVo when I moved from the UK to Australia last year. I also have a US series 1 Phillips. Both are now running the same TiVo image (version 3) complete with philips banners. It seems that the inclusion of palmod into the image will allow it to run on both US and UK series 1 hardware.

As for differences between 2.5.5 and 3.0...... I cant see any except:
1. The backdoor key sequence to sort now playing
2. Running version 3 in pal mode prevents you from accessing the phone and decoder menu so you cannot force make the daily call using the menu or change your decoder box. Although if you boot back into NTSC mode then you can access the menu force the call and then reboot back into PAL mode.
3. All the menus have a solid black bar at the bottom (due to number of lines difference between PAL NTSC?).
4. The progress bar when you ff or rew is higher up the screen.
5. Pressing TiVo - 0 plays the intro animation.
6. My Thompson Scenium is no longer as recommended by Sky Digital 

As far as I can tell everything I had on 2.5.5 i still there on 3 and I dont have anything extra.

I cant really see why you would want to waste the time in trying to upgrade.....

Oh BTW: The sw you would need to compile your own head-ends to run your own TiVo emulator service states that it may only be used where an official TiVo service is not available. This means you are breaking the licensing on the slice generation tools as well as on the TiVo unit. It will be interesting to see what happens to OzTiVo.... So far no C&D but it cant be far away. Also the OzTiVo guys will be breaking their own licensing rules regarding the head-end generator too........


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

sfalvey said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens to OzTiVo.... So far no C&D but it cant be far away. Also the OzTiVo guys will be breaking their own licensing rules regarding the head-end generator too........


Interesting post which fully answers nearly all the unanswered questions regarding 3.01 use on a UK Tivo.

Coming back to the last point you made (above) once the official Tivo service is launched in Australia I can't see how anyone can carry on using their current Tivo with non official data with a clear conscience unless they also buy and subscribe to service on one of the new Tivos, whilst retiring the current hacked units to the bedroom or study for secondary use.

In any case I would have thought that as Tivo fanatics most of you in the Oztivo movement would be only too eager to get your hands on one of the new units ASAP, even though it will mean parting with yet more hard earned cash........


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

More importantly, would they be prepared to make these tools available to us if we find ourselves with no tivo service?


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## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> In any case I would have thought that as Tivo fanatics most of you in the Oztivo movement would be only too eager to get your hands on one of the new units ASAP, even though it will mean parting with yet more hard earned cash........


I agree, I have already signed up for consideration on the beta program. Regardless I intend on purchasing as soon as they come available. I look forward to switching off my old S1 TiVos. Having used the official UK service for a number of years I am well used to a decent EPG service (something that Oz does not have on any platform) but the new features on the boxes we are getting should be fantastic.

I just hope that they re-launch in the UK in case I move back any time soon........


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## beastman (May 26, 2002)

sfalvey said:


> I agree, I have already signed up for consideration on the beta program. Regardless I intend on purchasing as soon as they come available. I look forward to switching off my old S1 TiVos. Having used the official UK service for a number of years I am well used to a decent EPG service (something that Oz does not have on any platform) but the new features on the boxes we are getting should be fantastic.
> 
> I just hope that they re-launch in the UK in case I move back any time soon........


Can you tell when will Oz get the new TiVos and is it true they will have adverts that can't be skipped?
Also are the Kiwis likely to get them around the same time or would it be later for them?


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## sfalvey (Feb 26, 2004)

I think we are getting a little O/T here but..

The official word is that it will be heavily marketed for the Olympics this year so I would suspect an Easter launch. (For official word read reported in the press here not actually announced by TiVo). With the call for beta testers going out just before Christmas hopefully the beta programme will kick off in the next couple of weeks.

As for the ad skipping. This point was clarified. The backdoor 30-second skip was removed in the US models and is unlikely to be re-introduced for the Oz market. FF and REW will work as normal regardless of ads or anything.

No idea about the kiwis, hadn't even heard they were getting a TiVo service. As none of the channels will be the same TiVo would have to partner with someone else for NZ.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

sfalvey said:


> No idea about the kiwis, hadn't even heard they were getting a TiVo service. As none of the channels will be the same TiVo would have to partner with someone else for NZ.


Given the population of NZ I don't see how it can possibly be cost effective to undertake either the marketing effort or produce the EPG for such a smaller user base?

If it is cost effective to market Tivo in NZ then surely it would be cost effective for Tivo to re-enter the UK even as a specialist niche PVR product.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

Raisltin Majere said:


> More importantly, would they be prepared to make these tools available to us if we find ourselves with no tivo service?


Or to other countries that currently don't have TiVos, such as Sweden *hint* *hint*


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## CarlWalters (Oct 17, 2001)

sfalvey said:


> I have brought my life-time subbed UK TiVo when I moved from the UK to Australia last year. I also have a US series 1 Phillips. Both are now running the same TiVo image (version 3) complete with philips banners. It seems that the inclusion of palmod into the image will allow it to run on both US and UK series 1 hardware.
> 
> As for differences between 2.5.5 and 3.0...... I cant see any except:
> 1. The backdoor key sequence to sort now playing
> ...


very interesting post - thanks. I'm guessing that point 4 might be related to point 3 (less lines means that the progress bar appears higher up the screen)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> I suppose if UK guide data stops then we would all have no problems or worries, and monthly sub people would actually be £10 PCM better off.





sfalvey said:


> Having used the official UK service for a number of years *I am well used to a decent EPG service (something that Oz does not have on any platform)*


I hope that the comments of our former UK Tivo using colleague (who is now out in Australia and OzTivoing) will demonstrate to 6022tivo that we will emphatically not be better off if Tivo withdraw the official UK service and we are instead forced to source our own UK EPG data.

As is made clear the relatively high quality of the UK EPG data source is in fact very much missed and the data they grab for the ad-hoc Australian OzTivo service only barely seems to work.


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