# Tivo OTA Network DVR submitted to FCC



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

New Tivo files have been released by the FCC today.

Tivo has submitted a product called the Mantis. Unknown for sure if this is a codename or not.

It sounds like a semi-combination of Aereo and the Stream?

"The TiVO Inc. model TCD84A000 (Mantis) is a network DVR that is designed to receive OTA broadcast video and transcodes and send it out as a network stream either wired or wireless."

Wireless is up to 802.11ac speed.

Unit is 5.5 x 5.5 x 1.5 inches. (roughly Mini sized)

*There is no video-out.*

Looking through the pages, there aren't any details about things like internal storage or whether you "bring your own storage" like other boxes. So we can only speculate if it's internal, external, or (theoretically but not likely) cloud-based.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

It looks like TiVo's version of a Tablo to me. There is a USB port, so I assume that is where you plug in a hard drive for storage. So they are basically going head-to-head against the Channel Master DVR+ with their Roamio OTA and then head-to-head against Tablo with this thing. Maybe next they will license a version of their software to individual users to compete against Windows Media Center and the SiliconDust DVR.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Actually, it sounds -- and looks -- a lot like Simple.TV 2.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

The diagram makes it look like a larger version of the TiVo Stream.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

LoadStar said:


> Actually, it sounds -- and looks -- a lot like Simple.TV 2.


It certainly does.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

This means there will be Roku, Apple TV etc apps in order for this to display video. These apps better also make use of the TiVo stream.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Sounds like the "won't directly compete with streamers" product Ira wants us to test around CES time.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Interesting. A headless TiVo. Could be cool for a CableCARD product too. Would certainly solve the app issue if you could just use a Roku or AppleTV to watch your TiVo. Especially if they could tie it into OnePass like how they do it on the iOS app.


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## dr_mal (Mar 21, 2001)

I have a Roamio Plus (cable-only). I wouldn't mind getting something like this to add OTA capabilities, if that's a possible use case for this device.


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## dadrepus (Jan 4, 2012)

So, I guess this will put a dent in the Silicone Dust products as well? We will now be able to watch live TV as well as recorded tv on any connected device using the wonderful Tivo UI?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

No video output ought to simplify antenna aiming and troubleshooting.


By making it moot.


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## TrackZ (Jan 5, 2004)

This is awesome but there must be a cablecard version. If it works well I would switch to this in a heartbeat from my Bolt if the app support is there giving me a choice of using a fire tv, roku, Xbox, etc. 

Imagine a Windows 10 universal app running on PC and Xbox.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Give me one with a CC slot and a 4TB 2.5" drive and I'll be thrilled. I wouldn't mind shoving this in my wiring closet and using Minis and Apps for the rest of my TVs.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

As speculated above, this must be the thing that Ira was talking about in response to my question about a new kind of upcoming product which he says will be unveiled at CES next Jan. This is a good move for TiVo. I envisioned them at some point in the future putting out TiVo-branded OTA network tuners and TiVo apps (for live TV/DVR functionality) available for various popular streaming boxes (Roku, Fire TV, Apple TV, Android TV) plus mobile devices. I just didn't imagine that they'd get there this quickly. This will be a direct competitor against Tablo, Simple.TV and Silicon Dust's HDHomeRun DVR.

TiVo is known as a DVR company. They've tried to be a streaming platform too but they'll always be a second-class competitor there. That's less important for cable TV subscribers, who see streaming as a side dish while their big cable package is the entree, but for cord-cutters, streaming is probably more important than OTA TV. Better to leave streaming to the established victors and concentrate on what TiVo can do well: live TV with trick play + DVR.

I'm doubtful we'll see a CableCARD version of the Mantis. As I've said elsewhere, I expect that the TiVo Bolt+ to be unveiled next week will be the last CableCARD product that TiVo ever releases. CableCARD is dying.

Any guesses on what pricing will look like for the TiVo Mantis? Any thoughts on whether the Roamio OTA (the only series 5 product still selling) will be discontinued next year when this rolls out? I'm guessing it will...


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> As speculated above, this must be the thing that Ira was talking about in response to my question about a new kind of upcoming product which he says will be unveiled at CES next Jan. This is a good move for TiVo. I envisioned them at some point in the future putting out TiVo-branded OTA network tuners and TiVo apps (for live TV/DVR functionality) available for various popular streaming boxes (Roku, Fire TV, Apple TV, Android TV) plus mobile devices. I just didn't imagine that they'd get there this quickly. This will be a direct competitor against Tablo, Simple.TV and Silicon Dust's HDHomeRun DVR.
> 
> TiVo is known as a DVR company. They've tried to be a streaming platform too but they'll always be a second-class competitor there. That's less important for cable TV subscribers, who see streaming as a side dish while their big cable package is the entree, but for cord-cutters, streaming is probably more important than OTA TV. Better to leave streaming to the established victors and concentrate on what TiVo can do well: live TV with trick play + DVR.
> 
> ...


I would not say the Roamio OTA is the only Roamio still be sold given that the Roamio Pro is still the premium cable DVR being sold on TiVo's web site.

But I agree they need to put the Roamios out to pasture. It has been 3 years, they were very good DVRs but time to move on. The Bolt + should be a replacement for the Roamio Pro, and either this network attached OTA device or a Bolt OTA should become the base OTA model.

My guess on pricing depends on if the unit contains a hard drive or not. If they include one I am guessing something in the $400 zone with lifetime - which puts it in the same price range as Tablo. Unfortunately because streaming devices, android, & iOS can not handle MPEG 2 it will still need a chip capable of converting MPEG 2 to h.264 so it will actually have to be more advanced than a Roamio OTA.

It will be interesting to see what platforms TiVo makes this comparable with.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> I would not say the Roamio OTA is the only Roamio still be sold given that the Roamio Plus is still the premium cable DVR being sold on TiVo's web site.
> 
> But I agree they need to put the Roamios out to pasture. It has been 3 years, they were very good DVRs but time to move on. The Bolt + should be a replacement for the Roamio Pro, and either this network attached OTA device or a Bolt OTA should become the base OTA model.
> 
> ...


Ah, forgot the Roamio Pro is still (sorta) featured on the TiVo site. I imagine that it will be permanently moved to the Outlet section after the Bolt+ replaces it next week.

I know some streamers, including Roku, cannot handle MPEG2 but I think others can. I believe the 4th gen Apple TV can, as the Channels app (live + trick play TV with DVR features in beta) for that box can work with the Silicon Dust Connect OTA tuner, which streams the original MPEG2 feed from the antenna. Also, any box running Android TV 6.0 (the version that came out last fall) has support for MPEG2.

But, yes, the TiVo Mantis will have to be capable of transcoding since a lot of devices will require it. Hopefully it gives users control over whether/how content is transcoded for various devices (e.g. no transcoding for the Nvidia Shield TV in my house but transcoding down to low-bandwidth h.264 for my iPhone when away from the home network).

Also hoping TiVo doesn't include a hard drive in the Mantis in order to keep costs down and allow for easy storage upgradeability/swap-out. It should work with any USB drive but maybe they could have a short list of recommended USB 3.0 drives that they've vetted.

If there's only to be one version, I'm also hoping they keep costs down by going with fewer tuners, 2 or 3 rather than 4. (Tablo offers 2-tuner and 4-tuner models while Simple.TV has 1- and 2-tuner models.) Two OTA tuners would be plenty for me.


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## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

dr_mal said:


> I have a Roamio Plus (cable-only). I wouldn't mind getting something like this to add OTA capabilities, if that's a possible use case for this device.


Especially since TiVo killed the ability to transfer files from our Premiere to Roamio. We were using an old Premiere to get OTA stuff, then transferring that to our Roamios. That was killed this year. Boo TiVo.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

curiousgeorge said:


> Especially since TiVo killed the ability to transfer files from our Premiere to Roamio. We were using an old Premiere to get OTA stuff, then transferring that to our Roamios. That was killed this year. Boo TiVo.


Just curious. What happened? I transfer from Roamio to/from Premiere all the time.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

curiousgeorge said:


> Especially since TiVo killed the ability to transfer files from our Premiere to Roamio. We were using an old Premiere to get OTA stuff, then transferring that to our Roamios. That was killed this year. Boo TiVo.





JoeKustra said:


> Just curious. What happened? I transfer from Roamio to/from Premiere all the time.


Huh? I transfer from premiere to roamio all the time.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Given Tivo's mind for simplicity, I have to think there will be internal storage. Their new love of 2.5" drives makes that easier.

But it would also be kinda cool if they could use a Tivo DVR on the network for storage (if one exists). An interesting merger of Cable+OTA on a single box.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

dr_mal said:


> I have a Roamio Plus (cable-only). I wouldn't mind getting something like this to add OTA capabilities, if that's a possible use case for this device.


Ooh that would be an awesome use case as well. If a cable TiVo could use this as an external OTA tuner and integrate directly into the main TiVo's My Shows. :up:


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

curiousgeorge said:


> Especially since TiVo killed the ability to transfer files from our Premiere to Roamio. We were using an old Premiere to get OTA stuff, then transferring that to our Roamios. That was killed this year. Boo TiVo.





JoeKustra said:


> Just curious. What happened? I transfer from Roamio to/from Premiere all the time.





Aero 1 said:


> Huh? I transfer from premiere to roamio all the time.


I'm curious too what is the issue. Transfers are fine here with a Roamio to/from a Premiere.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> I would not say the Roamio OTA is the only Roamio still be sold *given that the Roamio Plus is still the premium cable DVR being sold on TiVo's web site.*
> 
> But I agree they need to put the Roamios out to pasture. It has been 3 years, they were very good DVRs but time to move on. The Bolt + should be a replacement for the Roamio Pro, and either this network attached OTA device or a Bolt OTA should become the base OTA model.
> 
> ...


It's the Roamio *PRO* that is still available, not the Plus.



NashGuy said:


> Ah, forgot the Roamio Pro is still (sorta) featured on the TiVo site. I imagine that it will be permanently moved to the Outlet section after the Bolt+ replaces it next week.
> 
> I know some streamers, including Roku, cannot handle MPEG2 but I think others can. I believe the 4th gen Apple TV can, as the Channels app (live + trick play TV with DVR features in beta) for that box can work with the Silicon Dust Connect OTA tuner, which streams the original MPEG2 feed from the antenna. Also, any box running Android TV 6.0 (the version that came out last fall) has support for MPEG2.
> 
> ...


Doesn't the FCC explanation reported by BigJimOutlaw already state that *it does transcoding*?



BigJimOutlaw said:


> New Tivo files have been released by the FCC today.
> 
> Tivo has submitted a product called the Mantis. Unknown for sure if this is a codename or not.
> 
> ...


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

curiousgeorge said:


> Especially since TiVo killed the ability to transfer files from our Premiere to Roamio. We were using an old Premiere to get OTA stuff, then transferring that to our Roamios. That was killed this year. Boo TiVo.


First as others have said there is no general issue transferring OTA recordings from a Premiere to a Roamio, so your problem must have something to do with your equipment/setup.

Second why are you transferring the recordings? You can stream from a Premiere to a Roamio without issues and it is nearly impossible to tell the difference.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

This device could actually be similar to the Sling AirTV device mentioned by Zatz where it has an OTA tuner and then integrates it into their OTT streaming TV guide/service (In Sling's case, SlingTV)?

Maybe it will integrate into a new service by TiVo through a third party like Evolution Digital using their eVUE-TV IPTV service?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

HarperVision said:


> This device could actually be similar to the Sling AirTV device mentioned by Zatz where it has an OTA tuner and then integrates it into their OTT streaming TV guide/service (In Sling's case, SlingTV)?
> 
> Maybe it will integrate into a new service by TiVo through a third party like Evolution Digital using their eVUE-TV IPTV service?


That would be cool. I'll be surprised if TiVo partners up with any kind of OTT "streaming cable" provider as it seems like a pretty big step away from the main thrust of Rovi/TiVo's current business. But it would be cool.

I do expect that, as others on this thread are hoping for, the Mantis's OTA tuners and recordings will be accessible from other TiVo and Mini units on the same network.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Partnering with a streaming TV service would require a good Cloud DVR system, both from a technical perspective, and a licensing perspective.

On the CableCard front, the Bolt+ may be around for a very, very long time, as the FCC seems to be waffling on the open access requirements for STBs. If they end up getting mowed over by the MSOs, then CableCard will end up as a zombie for TiVos and the SiliconDust system that will basically live on virtually forever with no replacement in sight, at least until the major MSOs go to IPTV, and TiVo loses access to them.

With the uncertainty in a CableCard replacement that would give access to IPTV/satellite, TiVo is smart to be looking at MSO relationships with IPTV, as well as the OTA market for a cheaper, more modern approach to OTA. I just wonder if this thing will work with TiVo Minis, as the interface on a Roku or Apple TV is not nearly as responsive as a TiVo Mini, and you have quality loss going from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> Partnering with a streaming TV service would require a good Cloud DVR system, both from a technical perspective, and a licensing perspective.
> 
> On the CableCard front, the Bolt+ may be around for a very, very long time, as the FCC seems to be waffling on the open access requirements for STBs. If they end up getting mowed over by the MSOs, then CableCard will end up as a zombie for TiVos and the SiliconDust system that will basically live on virtually forever with no replacement in sight, at least until the major MSOs go to IPTV, and TiVo loses access to them.
> 
> With the uncertainty in a CableCard replacement that would give access to IPTV/satellite, TiVo is smart to be looking at MSO relationships with IPTV, as well as the OTA market for a cheaper, more modern approach to OTA. I just wonder if this thing will work with TiVo Minis, as the interface on a Roku or Apple TV is not nearly as responsive as a TiVo Mini, and you have quality loss going from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4.


Maybe you're right that the MSOs will continue to offer CableCARD access for several years even if the current app-based plan under FCC consideration passes. But if I'm Comcast, why bother with the hassle of provisioning and pairing CableCARDs for 1% (and shrinking) of my customer base if I'm not forced to by the FCC? And if the FCC forces MSO to continue supporting CableCARD indefinitely (or at least until they retire QAM some time down the road), then can the current app-based plan be considered a "replacement" for CableCARD? It would seem to me more like an _addition_ to it. That said, let's say the app plan passes this Dec. I'm sure the FCC will want to do something to protect folks who, say, just bought a TiVo Bolt+ to ensure they get some amount of use out of it. Maybe the FCC forbids the sale of any new CableCARD-equipped STBs after a certain date? Who knows.

As for UI responsiveness, I find my old Apple TV 3 to be as or more responsive than my Roamio, so I'm not sure what you mean there about streaming boxes lagging the Mini in terms of speed. But yes, there would theoretically be some PQ loss in transcoding from MPEG2 to h.264, although if done right it could be slight enough that almost no one notices.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Sounds like it will always transcode. But if done right you can transcode without a significant quality loss. Currently the Stream functionality cuts the resolution to 720p and lowers the bitrate to something like 2.5Mbps, so the quality loss is pretty obvious on a big screen. But with a higher bitrate, and maybe 1080p support, it could be pretty much indistinguishable from the original. 

One thing that would drastically improve the user experience is if they transocded while it was recording rather then on the fly like the Stream does. If the video on the disk is already transcoded into a streaming friendly format (i.e. H.264 progressive) then trickplay functionality will be no different on those devices then it is on a Mini now.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Sounds like it will always transcode. But if done right you can transcode without a significant quality loss.* Currently the Stream functionality cuts the resolution to 720p* and lowers the bitrate to something like 2.5Mbps, so the quality loss is pretty obvious on a big screen. But with a higher bitrate, and maybe 1080p support, it could be pretty much indistinguishable from the original.
> 
> One thing that would drastically improve the user experience is if they transocded while it was recording rather then on the fly like the Stream does. If the video on the disk is already transcoded into a streaming friendly format (i.e. H.264 progressive) then trickplay functionality will be no different on those devices then it is on a Mini now.


Hmmmm, the Stream must've been designed by Comcast.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

So I think you can consider this just a Stand Alone OTA TiVo Stream with it's own tuners..

They will extend the Amazon Fire App for multiple streaming boxes and of course work with the mobile (IOS / Android) apps. *I highly doubt this will be a full TiVo UI.*

No reason why our full TiVo's with stream can't benefit from the extended ecosystem, but no need for someone with a full Tivo to own this box.

It would be a lot cheaper for TiVo to manufacture and support, thus it should be a lot less expensive. (Think of it as a gateway drug to a full feature TiVo!)

I do hope it simply allows you to choose a network location - that should not be a problem for OTA content...

Kudos to TiVo on this one...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HarperVision said:


> Hmmmm, the Stream must've been designed by Comcast.


It does this because it was designed at a time when the iPad 2 was state of the art and had a max resolution of 720p for video. They've never updated the video resolutions/bitrates since. (maybe the chip can't handle it)


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

My guess is that the apps that TiVo makes for various devices (Roku, Apple TV, etc.) to use with the Mantis will sport some version of the "next gen UI" that TiVo has stated is among their current projects. I suspect that it will be at least somewhat more graphical, with a bigger emphasis on poster art. It will need to somehow be more simplified; the current TiVo UI was clearly designed to work with the multi-button TiVo remote while the UI for the Mantis app will need to work easily with just the few buttons available on typical streaming box remotes. I imagine it will support those systems' voice search/control features too.

I wonder if they'll bother incorporating OnePass's streaming app support? Clicking a streaming title in your My Shows list would just launch the appropriate app if installed on that device, e.g. Netflix, and (if allowed) connect straight to that title within the app.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> So I think you can consider this just a Stand Alone OTA TiVo Stream with it's own tuners..
> 
> They will extend the Amazon Fire App for multiple streaming boxes and of course work with the mobile (IOS / Android) apps. *I highly doubt this will be a full TiVo UI.*
> 
> ...


The current Stream doesn't allow live TV streaming, so unless they fix that this will need to be some sort of DVR.

Seems very limited use case if it only allows streaming of live OTA channels. Not sure who would really be in the market for that. I know Aereo had quite a few customers, but I'm willing to bet a big chunk of them were people who lied about where they lived so they could get around sports blackout rules. Plus the Aereo service still had a DVR component.

I can't imagine TiVo releasing a product that is only a streamer. If it doesn't have a built in drive then I suspect you'll be able to connect one to the USB port and get the full DVR functionality.

As for the UI... the iOS and Android apps are pretty full featured already. The FireTV app sucks, but I assume they're working on that.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> I wonder if they'll bother incorporating OnePass's streaming app support? Clicking a streaming title in your My Shows list would just launch the appropriate app if installed on that device, e.g. Netflix, and (if allowed) connect straight to that title within the app.


They already have this in the iOS and Android apps, so I assume they'll do it for the streaming device apps too. It probably wont be quite as seamless as using the apps on the TiVo itself, as there will be no easy way to return to the TiVo app, but it will still allow you to aggregate the content into a single list which is better then most of these streaming platforms do on their own.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> My guess is that the apps that TiVo makes for various devices (Roku, Apple TV, etc.) to use with the Mantis will sport some version of the "next gen UI" that TiVo has stated is among their current projects. I suspect that it will be at least somewhat more graphical, with a bigger emphasis on poster art. It will need to somehow be more simplified; the current TiVo UI was clearly designed to work with the multi-button TiVo remote while the UI for the Mantis app will need to work easily with just the few buttons available on typical streaming box remotes. I imagine it will support those systems' voice search/control features too. I wonder if they'll bother incorporating OnePass's streaming app support? Clicking a streaming title in your My Shows list would just launch the appropriate app if installed on that device, e.g. Netflix, and (if allowed) connect straight to that title within the app.


Huh? This thing is an OTA tuner. Who said all your programs would be streamed?

The way to configure it is with an optional drive or tied into a bolt style TiVo ecosystem to do Dvr functions. Access via app's on various devices and full integration into the TiVo ecosystem.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> Huh? This thing is an OTA tuner. Who said all your programs would be streamed?
> 
> The way to configure it is with an optional drive or tied into a bolt style TiVo ecosystem to do Dvr functions. Access via app's on various devices and full integration into the TiVo ecosystem.


Sorry, not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying you only think the Mantis will work as a DVR is in conjunction with a regular TiVo, i.e. Bolt, Roamio, etc? I don't think that will be the case.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

This looks to me like a direct competitor to the Tablo. Tablo requires a USB HDD and is headless so it streams to other streaming devices. 

Only advantage here is that TiVo "could" integrate it into the TiVo ecosystem so that a cable only DVR (Bolt+ maybe?) could use it as an external OTA tuner and integrate OTA and cable into one box.


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

Interesting little device.

Any details on how many tuners this Mantis will have?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> Interesting little device.
> 
> Any details on how many tuners this Mantis will have?


We don't know. Zatz guesses it'll have two tuners over on his blog. I'd say that's a good guess, based on how many tuners other OTA DVR options provide (Tablo: 2 or 4, Simple.TV: 1 or 2, CM DVR+: 2, HDHomeRun: 2). The target market for something like this is price-sensitive, so makes sense to price it as competitively as possible. Maybe if it's successful, a second model would roll out with more tuners.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> Huh? This thing is an OTA tuner. Who said all your programs would be streamed?
> 
> The way to configure it is with an optional drive or tied into a bolt style TiVo ecosystem to do Dvr functions. Access via app's on various devices and full integration into the TiVo ecosystem.


I expect this to be a streaming device - like the TiVo stream, with OTA tuners, allowing you to connect to external storage and setup / manage recordings.

I expect the user experience to leverage what is already in play but extend to all the popular devices. What I mean by that is leveraging the Amazon Fire app, iOS app, Amazon app, and TiVo online.

Playback would be the same stream based output, not the smooth trickplay of a standalone TiVo.

This is just my interpretation / expectation for this device.

It would be an interesting, less expensive entry level device, but I don't expect it be be the TiVo feature rich experience.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> It does this because it was designed at a time when the iPad 2 was state of the art and had a max resolution of 720p for video. They've never updated the video resolutions/bitrates since. (maybe the chip can't handle it)


That reply was tongue in cheek Dan.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> We don't know. Zatz guesses it'll have two tuners over on his blog. I'd say that's a good guess, based on how many tuners other OTA DVR options provide (Tablo: 2 or 4, Simple.TV: 1 or 2, CM DVR+: 2, HDHomeRun: 2). The target market for something like this is price-sensitive, so makes sense to price it as competitively as possible. Maybe if it's successful, a second model would roll out with more tuners.


I can't imagine 2 vs 4 tuners would have a huge impact on price. Although the transcoding hardware might. The chip in the Bolt can only transcode 2 streams simultaneously.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> I can't imagine 2 vs 4 tuners would have a huge impact on price. Although the transcoding hardware might. The chip in the Bolt can only transcode 2 streams simultaneously.


I can tell you that Tablo charges $220 for their 2-tuner model and $300 for their 4-tuner. If TiVo were to come to market with only one model of the Mantis and price it head-to-head against Tablo, I think they'd have more success with 2 tuners at $220 than with 4 tuners at $300.

Tablo, like Plex DVR, also charges only $5/mo for guide data/service (or less if purchased by the year), so TiVo is going to have to forget about charging $12.50 to $15 per month.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> They already have this in the iOS and Android apps, so I assume they'll do it for the streaming device apps too. It probably wont be quite as seamless as using the apps on the TiVo itself, as there will be no easy way to return to the TiVo app, but it will still allow you to aggregate the content into a single list which is better then most of these streaming platforms do on their own.


Amazon just updated their software to include searching across apps for shows:


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Tivo wanted photos to be confidential but one of the reports has photos with a prototype in view. (bottom left) The box could change, since this prototype differs from the sketch in the OP.


That looks like an Arris Cable Modem!


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> Maybe you're right that the MSOs will continue to offer CableCARD access for several years even if the current app-based plan under FCC consideration passes. But if I'm Comcast, why bother with the hassle of provisioning and pairing CableCARDs for 1% (and shrinking) of my customer base if I'm not forced to by the FCC? And if the FCC forces MSO to continue supporting CableCARD indefinitely (or at least until they retire QAM some time down the road), then can the current app-based plan be considered a "replacement" for CableCARD? It would seem to me more like an _addition_ to it. That said, let's say the app plan passes this Dec. I'm sure the FCC will want to do something to protect folks who, say, just bought a TiVo Bolt+ to ensure they get some amount of use out of it. Maybe the FCC forbids the sale of any new CableCARD-equipped STBs after a certain date? Who knows.
> 
> As for UI responsiveness, I find my old Apple TV 3 to be as or more responsive than my Roamio, so I'm not sure what you mean there about streaming boxes lagging the Mini in terms of speed. But yes, there would theoretically be some PQ loss in transcoding from MPEG2 to h.264, although if done right it could be slight enough that almost no one notices.


I think you are looking at this wrong.

The FCC is not going to allow cable companies to drop cable card support on any QAM based systems without a replacement that works on those system. What is going on now is the FCC is effectively agreeing that there will not be a cable card replacement ever. What is gong to be replaced are the QAM based systems and when that happens the FCC is moving to accept cable company apps on streaming devices as a way to open up the STB market.

Cable companies are not going to run a full blown QAM cable system and a Full blown IP TV system at the same time. Which is what would be require to have an apps on very many streaming devices be able to replace STBs. Right now they could provide a limited number of independent IP streams to streaming devices but no way they could do that if say people want to replace even 20-30% of their STBs with apps on stream devices.

Of course the cable companies are now showing their true colors by saying what they previously offered isn't really acceptable. The bottom line is they are fighting to get the FCC to do nothing and require nothing as they move to IP TV systems. How fast that happens is anyone's guess, most systems are not even moving fully to h.264 yet and IP TV is likely going to be h.265 based systems to allow for the possibility of UHD broadcasts.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Sorry, not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying you only think the Mantis will work as a DVR is in conjunction with a regular TiVo, i.e. Bolt, Roamio, etc? I don't think that will be the case.


Not at all. But your post sounded like it was only going to be streaming.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I can't imagine 2 vs 4 tuners would have a huge impact on price. Although the transcoding hardware might. The chip in the Bolt can only transcode 2 streams simultaneously.


Ah, here is the beauty if they are going to make this things as sidecars to the existing TiVo ecosystem and can stack them from an app viewpoint. You buy how many tuners you want.

BTW, if they are doing what I think they are doing, then this is close to the wow! factor I was looking for.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> Not at all. But your post sounded like it was only going to be streaming.


No. Well, the OTA signal will be transcoded by the Mantis and then streamed to connected devices on the user's home network (and possibly away from home as well). So, yes, in that sense, it's all streaming.

I don't think the Mantis or the accompanying apps that serve as the front-ends for the device will be directly involved in any kind of internet streaming though, like from Netflix, Amazon, etc; those OTT apps already exist on any of the devices that Mantis may stream OTA TV to.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> No. Well, the OTA signal will be transcoded by the Mantis and then streamed to connected devices on the user's home network (and possibly away from home as well). So, yes, in that sense, it's all streaming.
> 
> I don't think the Mantis or the accompanying apps that serve as the front-ends for the device will be directly involved in any kind of internet streaming though, like from Netflix, Amazon, etc; those OTT apps already exist on any of the devices that Mantis may stream OTA TV to.


And probably uploaded to the TiVo Cloud DVR servers!


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> I think you are looking at this wrong.
> 
> The FCC is not going to allow cable companies to drop cable card support on any QAM based systems without a replacement that works on those system. What is going on now is the FCC is effectively agreeing that there will not be a cable card replacement ever. What is gong to be replaced are the QAM based systems and when that happens the FCC is moving to accept cable company apps on streaming devices as a way to open up the STB market.
> 
> Cable companies are not going to run a full blown QAM cable system and a Full blown IP TV system at the same time. Which is what would be require to have an apps on very many streaming devices be able to replace STBs. Right now they could provide a limited number of independent IP streams to streaming devices but no way they could do that if say people want to replace even 20-30% of their STBs with apps on stream devices.


I'm not sure it's really been defined one way or another. Initially, Unlock the Box was supposed to be about providing customers access not only to cable but also satellite service via the retail hardware of their choice. So I'm not sure the discussion is being framed in terms of "when cable switches from QAM to IP," although maybe it is. Obviously, if a streaming app approach is offered, that requires IP. It isn't clear to me if, should the current proposal pass, cable MSOs will be forced to transition to IP faster than they otherwise may have or if, as you suggest, the app thing wouldn't kick in until they get around to building an IPTV system, with CableCARD still being required on their legacy QAM system until then.

I'm pretty sure that Comcast today has the IPTV infrastructure to replace QAM-based service to their relatively small number of CableCARD users with IP/app-based service if they wanted to. They're already serving all of that up nationwide to apps on mobile devices. Adding a few hundred thousand Rokus, etc. wouldn't be a big deal. Now, if a quarter of their customers wanted to turn in their Comcast boxes and go the streaming app route, that might pose a challenge. But I honestly don't think that many people will want to.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

HarperVision said:


> Amazon just updated their software to include searching across apps for shows:


I saw that. VERY nice. Plus, they're opening up show recommendations on the home screen to support third-party apps, starting with Netflix and HBO, with more to come.

My biggest gripe against Fire TV has been that the UI is so Amazon-centric. For example, do a voice search for a given movie, and the only result would be that you can buy it from Amazon Video, it doesn't tell you that it's available for streaming on the Showtime app you have installed.

Also, in the past you couldn't even arrange apps where you wanted them on the Fire TV homescreen. It just provided a row with the last X number of apps you've used in the order you last used them from left to right. (To see the full list of apps installed, you had to dig into a submenu, I think.) But I think this new software update lets you place at least a few of your favorite apps in stationary spots on the homescreen.

But now that Amazon is fixing a lot of that sort of bias, and becoming at least somewhat more content-provider-neutral like Roku and Android TV, I may consider getting one. Haven't decided what I'll buy for my next streamer yet. Seems like every day there's some new announcement about this device or that app...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> No. Well, the OTA signal will be transcoded by the Mantis and then streamed to connected devices on the user's home network (and possibly away from home as well). So, yes, in that sense, it's all streaming. I don't think the Mantis or the accompanying apps that serve as the front-ends for the device will be directly involved in any kind of internet streaming though, like from Netflix, Amazon, etc; those OTT apps already exist on any of the devices that Mantis may stream OTA TV to.


Okay. I guess. I'm not following your adjustments but that's fine.

Oh, by your current definition, a mini is a steaming device so TiVo has been a streaming company for years. That's a bit tortured.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> I'm not sure it's really been defined one way or another. Initially, Unlock the Box was supposed to be about providing customers access not only to cable but also satellite service via the retail hardware of their choice. So I'm not sure the discussion is being framed in terms of "when cable switches from QAM to IP," although maybe it is. Obviously, if a streaming app approach is offered, that requires IP. It isn't clear to me if, should the current proposal pass, cable MSOs will be forced to transition to IP faster than they otherwise may have or if, as you suggest, the app thing wouldn't kick in until they get around to building an IPTV system, with CableCARD still being required on their legacy QAM system until then.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Comcast today has the IPTV infrastructure to replace QAM-based service to their relatively small number of CableCARD users with IP/app-based service if they wanted to. They're already serving all of that up nationwide to apps on mobile devices. Adding a few hundred thousand Rokus, etc. wouldn't be a big deal. Now, if a quarter of their customers wanted to turn in their Comcast boxes and go the streaming app route, that might pose a challenge. But I honestly don't think that many people will want to.


I think it is a pretty safe bet to say that Comcast is pretty far down the path of building out an IPTV delivery system. It is pretty clear their current hardware is designed to handle both QAM & IP delivery and from what I understand they have already implemented a DVR partially based on cloud storage. My guess is their conversion is being timed based on the cost to replace legacy equipment.

In the end the cable company game is to string the FCC along, long enough to get to IP TV without regulation. Satellite & IPTV delivery doesn't have any requirements now and that is where cable wants to be. Unless congress and the FCC grow some back bones, I have near zero belief that there will be any Government requirement for third part device access to Satellite or IPTV Pay TV systems in the future.

At this point I think the best consumers can hope for is that the Government/FCC holds the line on net neutrality. If OTT options and perhaps new tech (like 5G) allows for enough competition in the Pay TV field it may result in better STB/DVR proprietary options from the various players. But the dream of owning all your own equipment and simple switching between different providers at will and not loosing any content you have recorded is pretty much dead.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

atmuscarella said:


> At this point I think the best consumers can hope for is that the Government/FCC holds the line on net neutrality. If OTT options and perhaps new tech (like 5G) allows for enough competition in the Pay TV field it may result in better STB/DVR proprietary options from the various players. But the dream of owning all your own equipment and simple switching between different providers at will and not loosing any content you have recorded is pretty much dead.


At this point, I just hope OTA signals remain recordable by retail devices. I'm sure the broadcast networks would like to lock that down too when they transition to ATSC 3.0


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> Okay. I guess. I'm not following your adjustments but that's fine.
> 
> Oh, by your current definition, a mini is a steaming device so TiVo has been a streaming company for years. That's a bit tortured.


Again, not sure what you were even confused about to begin with or if you simply enjoy quibbling over semantics. If you want to know what the Mantis will be and how it will function, just check out https://www.tablotv.com.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> Again, not sure what you were even confused about to begin with or if you simply enjoy quibbling over semantics. If you want to know what the Mantis will be and how it will function, just check out https://www.tablotv.com.


I think it will be more than that.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

HarperVision said:


> I think it will be more than that.


I know you do, Harper. 

I know this isn't what you're talking about, but if TiVo is really on the ball, the Mantis will also work with existing TiVo DVRs and Minis as an extra set of OTA tuners that are automatically incorporated into those boxes' functionality when the Mantis is added to the same home network, as others have discussed above.

But I think the thrust of how this thing is marketed will simply be as a headless network OTA DVR, a direct competitor to Tablo.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

NashGuy said:


> I know this isn't what you're talking about, but if TiVo is really on the ball, the Mantis will also work with existing TiVo DVRs and Minis as an extra set of OTA tuners that are automatically incorporated into those boxes' functionality when the Mantis is added to the same home network, as others have discussed above.


That's a functionality that TiVo will probably announce is "coming soon" and will take them 2 years to implement.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> We don't know. Zatz guesses it'll have two tuners over on his blog.


I'd also guess an internal hard drive unlike Tablo and given consumer focus and box dimensions.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

davezatz said:


> I'd also guess an internal hard drive unlike Tablo and given consumer focus and box dimensions.


Mantis: 5.5 x 5.5 x 1.5 inches = 45.375 cu. in.
Tablo: 6.8 x 4.5 x 1.6 inches = 48.96 cu. in.

The Mantis is actually smaller than the Tablo. Doesn't look like there is room for an internal hard drive to me.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> I think it will be more than that.


I do too. If not does not integrate into an existing TiVo ecosystem then they have missed the mark.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> I know you do, Harper.  I know this isn't what you're talking about, but if TiVo is really on the ball, the Mantis will also work with existing TiVo DVRs and Minis as an extra set of OTA tuners that are automatically incorporated into those boxes' functionality when the Mantis is added to the same home network, as others have discussed above. But I think the thrust of how this thing is marketed will simply be as a headless network OTA DVR, a direct competitor to Tablo.


No. It should be marketed as everything. In a perfect world, they could draw people into the whole system with mantis as an entry. It would reinforce their Dvr (streaming and ota and all) sales and production. They want to stay in that market to be a provider to MSOs most of which will not be iptv for a long time.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Mantis: 5.5 x 5.5 x 1.5 inches = 45.375 cu. in.
> Tablo: 6.8 x 4.5 x 1.6 inches = 48.96 cu. in.
> 
> The Mantis is actually smaller than the Tablo. Doesn't look like there is room for an internal hard drive to me.


If the Mantis is that small, they'd have to use a 2.5" laptop hard drive (as in the Bolt) and layer the circuit board on top of or underneath the hard drive to get it all to fit. I don't know if that's a practical design or not given heat considerations and other factors that I'm sure I don't even really know about.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I could see them going disk less (enough for maybe a buffer, so a small solid state drive). If you want Dvr functionality you either pair up to a bolt or you add an external disk. Flexibility and price savings for all. If they make it plug and play, it becomes simple. 

I sure hope this is where they are going.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> I could see them going disk less (enough for maybe a buffer, so a small solid state drive). If you want Dvr functionality you either pair up to a bolt or you add an external disk. Flexibility and price savings for all. If they make it plug and play, it becomes simple.
> 
> I sure hope this is where they are going.


I'm not sure they would even bother with internal SSD for live TV. SSD has a finite number of writes and the live TV buffer is constantly being written, 24 hours a day , 7 days a week. The lifespan of an internal SSD would be like 2-3 years, tops. And if it's non-replaceable then it would limit the life of the unit. I'm betting it requires either another TiVo or an external HDD to work at all.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> No. It should be marketed as everything. In a perfect world, they could draw people into the whole system with mantis as an entry. It would reinforce their Dvr (streaming and ota and all) sales and production. They want to stay in that market to be a provider to MSOs most of which will not be iptv for a long time.


This kind of product is clearly aimed at the cord-cutter market, folks who are already using streaming devices like Roku, iPad, laptops, etc. and want to consume free OTA time-shifted (and place-shifted?) content on those same devices. I don't think Mantis would ever be a significant gateway product that those cord-cutters upgrade from to, say, a Bolt. Why? Are they for some reason switching to cable TV? Would they prefer to have to switch to a different device/screen/TV input for their OTA DVR than for their streaming?

You want your marketing message, what this product mainly does and the consumer segment it is designed for, to be the focus. It's an OTA network DVR aimed at cord cutters. TiVo has been experimenting in the OTA/cord-cutter space for two years now, first with various pricing structures on the original "limited edition" Roamio OTA (their first-ever OTA-only DVR), then with the refreshed 1TB Roamio OTA sold only with lifetime service. My guess is that it's still not selling as well as they had hoped and it will be put out to pasture when they take another stab at cord-cutters with the Mantis.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> I could see them going disk less (enough for maybe a buffer, so a small solid state drive). If you want Dvr functionality you either pair up to a bolt or you add an external disk. Flexibility and price savings for all. If they make it plug and play, it becomes simple.
> 
> I sure hope this is where they are going.


I don't think this is meant to be paired with a full TiVo. I think this will simply drive the mobile and Amazon Fire apps using a couple OTA tuners.

Would it need, does it have a buffer? I suspect the answer is no...

I suspect they will allow live tv transcode without trick play and the ability to record with the same trickplay experience you would get in today's mobile apps - extended for all the major streaming devices (Roku, Apple, Amazon)

This is a similar to how tablo, et al work.

You cannot send livetv direct to these streaming devices without transcoding - so you are going to find the live tv options to be very limited. Today the mobile apps do not allow live tv at all!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

As I mentioned above the limitations of the current Stream are due to the fact that they transcode on the fly. If they instead made the device transcode as it was recording then most of the limitations of the current streaming would be eliminated. If the live stream was transcoded as it was recorded and stored on the disk in it's transcoded, mobile compatible, format then you could offer the same experience as a Mini on pretty much any device.

Another bonus of transcoding as it records is that they can control the GOP structure of the recording, which would make trick play more consistent like it was back in the S1/S2 days rather then how it is now with FF speed varying from channel to channel.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> This kind of product is clearly aimed at the cord-cutter market, folks who are already using streaming devices like Roku, iPad, laptops, etc. and want to consume free OTA time-shifted (and place-shifted?) content on those same devices. I don't think Mantis would ever be a significant gateway product that those cord-cutters upgrade from to, say, a Bolt. Why? Are they for some reason switching to cable TV? Would they prefer to have to switch to a different device/screen/TV input for their OTA DVR than for their streaming?
> 
> You want your marketing message, what this product mainly does and the consumer segment it is designed for, to be the focus. It's an OTA network DVR aimed at cord cutters. TiVo has been experimenting in the OTA/cord-cutter space for two years now, first with various pricing structures on the original "limited edition" Roamio OTA (their first-ever OTA-only DVR), then with the refreshed 1TB Roamio OTA sold only with lifetime service. My guess is that it's still not selling as well as they had hoped and it will be put out to pasture when they take another stab at cord-cutters with the Mantis.


 OTA is nothing new to TiVo. They have made/sold OTA DVRs since the day they released their first DVR and have always had a current model that was an OTA DVR. In fact you will not find another company that has been continuously making new OTA DVRs longer than TiVo.

Special marketing to OTA users also isn't new, back in the dual tuner Premiere days TiVo offered monthly service for the 2 tuner Premieres that cost less for OTA only users than it did for those who where on cable.

What is new is TiVo attempting to find away to lower the cost of the hardware by removing hardware (the cable card bracket) & licensing (cable card) costs. This new product maybe a further attempt to reduce the cost of a TiVo OTA DVR, but we wont know that until we see the pricing and what else a person is going to have to buy to make it work.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> As I mentioned above the limitations of the current Stream are due to the fact that they transcode on the fly. If they instead made the device transcode as it was recording then most of the limitations of the current streaming would be eliminated. If the live stream was transcoded as it was recorded and stored on the disk in it's transcoded, mobile compatible, format then you could offer the same experience as a Mini on pretty much any device.
> 
> Another bonus of transcoding as it records is that they can control the GOP structure of the recording, which would make trick play more consistent like it was back in the S1/S2 days rather then how it is now with FF speed varying from channel to channel.


I believe that's what Tablo does -- immediately transcode the original OTA signal as its received to h.264 and store it in that format on the hard drive.

The problem with that approach is that every time you tune into a different channel on live TV, there's a pause while the transcoded buffer builds. You can watch online videos of the Tablo in action and see it do that. It's probably why Tablo doesn't even allow users to channel surf through live TV. If you want to change channels, you must bring up the program guide grid and select a different channel to watch. There's no "channel up" or "channel down" command from your remote.

Perhaps a way around that would be for the Mantis to pass through the original MPEG2 OTA stream for live TV to those devices that can decode it and use that device's on-board storage for building the trick play buffer. This seems to be what the Channels app does with the Apple TV 4. It's not a DVR (and has access to no hard drive or memory outside the Apple TV), it just takes the MPEG2 OTA stream from a Silicon Dust network tuner and plays it on the Apple TV with a 90-minute buffer. So perhaps TiVo's to-be-developed apps for Apple TV, Android TV and possibly other streamers could do the same thing.

Meanwhile, the Mantis would be transcoding to h.264 everything that it tunes to before storing it to its own connected hard drive. So when playing back a recorded show on any device, you'd get it as transcoded h.264. And when watching live TV on a device that can't handle the original MPEG2 passthrough stream (due to MPEG licensing or hardware issues or because it's a mobile device that may need a lower bitrate stream because it could be out-of-home), it also gets live TV as transcoded h.264, necessitating a pause when changing channels.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> OTA is nothing new to TiVo. They have made/sold OTA DVRs since the day they released their first DVR and have always had a current model that was an OTA DVR. In fact you will not find another company that has been continuously making new OTA DVRs longer than TiVo.
> 
> Special marketing to OTA users also isn't new, back in the dual tuner Premiere days TiVo offered monthly service for the 2 tuner Premieres that cost less for OTA only users than it did for those who where on cable.
> 
> What is new is TiVo attempting to find away to lower the cost of the hardware by removing hardware (the cable card bracket) & licensing (cable card) costs. This new product maybe a further attempt to reduce the cost of a TiVo OTA DVR, but we wont know that until we see the pricing and what else a person is going to have to buy to make it work.


Did TiVo have a model that was OTA-only, without a CableCARD slot, prior to the Roamio OTA? Putting out a model dedicated to OTA was a new development in TiVo's marketing history and drew some media attention to TiVo as an alternative for cord cutters. That said, yes, TiVo had for years offered units that could be used for cable and OTA but the pricing was too high for it to really take off among OTA-only folks.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> As I mentioned above the limitations of the current Stream are due to the fact that they transcode on the fly. If they instead made the device transcode as it was recording then most of the limitations of the current streaming would be eliminated. If the live stream was transcoded as it was recorded and stored on the disk in it's transcoded, mobile compatible, format then you could offer the same experience as a Mini on pretty much any device.
> 
> Another bonus of transcoding as it records is that they can control the GOP structure of the recording, which would make trick play more consistent like it was back in the S1/S2 days rather then how it is now with FF speed varying from channel to channel.


I agree, if the "DVR" stored the content in the final format then it would be far more reliable with the opportunity to be feature rich. But that does not support a live tv strategy - in that case they would still have to transcode on the fly.

That said, if the device had a small internal Hardrive to capture a transcoded buffer - the experience could be pretty robust.

But boy I tell you, the image of that box seems pretty small for even a laptop Hardrive. I suppose they could "require" an external drive... Hard to say


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> I believe that's what Tablo does -- immediately transcode the original OTA signal as its received to h.264 and store it in that format on the hard drive.
> 
> The problem with that approach is that every time you tune into a different channel on live TV, there's a pause while the transcoded buffer builds. You can watch online videos of the Tablo in action and see it do that. It's probably why Tablo doesn't even allow users to channel surf through live TV. If you want to change channels, you must bring up the program guide grid and select a different channel to watch. There's no "channel up" or "channel down" command from your remote.
> 
> ...


Live TV channel surfing is probably not high priority for a box like this. I can't imagine they'd jump through hoops like that just to speed up tuning slightly. No matter if they transcode or not there is still going to be a delay due to tuning, buffering, streaming, buffering again, and then decoding. Have you ever channel surfed on a Mini? It's pretty slow. Transcoding wouldn't add significantly to that.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> I suppose they could "require" an external drive... Hard to say


That's exactly what Tablo does. Their box wont work without an external hard drive. I think the channel master device does, but only as a basic OTA tuner with no buffer.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> Live TV channel surfing is probably not high priority for a box like this. I can't imagine they'd jump through hoops like that just to speed up tuning slightly. No matter if they transcode or not there is still going to be a delay due to tuning, buffering, streaming, buffering again, and then decoding. Have you ever channel surfed on a Mini? It's pretty slow. Transcoding wouldn't add significantly to that.


Yeah I agree with this. Channel surfing on my Minis is painfully slow. On SDV channels it takes approximately 5 seconds to change the channel. Transcoding would probably make it take about that long.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> That's exactly what Tablo does. Their box wont work without an external hard drive. I think the channel master device does, but only as a basic OTA tuner with no buffer.


I think the Channel Master does have a small internal drive for buffering.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Live TV channel surfing is probably not high priority for a box like this. I can't imagine they'd jump through hoops like that just to speed up tuning slightly. No matter if they transcode or not there is still going to be a delay due to tuning, buffering, streaming, buffering again, and then decoding. Have you ever channel surfed on a Mini? It's pretty slow. Transcoding wouldn't add significantly to that.


If the delay in changing channels is as bad as the Tablo, then the Mantis is not a solution I'd be interested in buying. Painfully slow.

But, as I mentioned above, Channels on Apple TV is snappy and looks very slick, so I'll keep an eye on what they do with the DVR features they're developing to add to the software. Unfortunately, though, Channels DVR will require a separate box running as the server.

I'll probably end up turning to an Android TV box though, most likely the 2nd gen Nvidia Shield TV coming this fall (although the Mi Box from Xiaomi is interesting). With all of the possibilities brewing there (Live Channels app, Plex DVR, HDHomeRun DVR, support for network OTA tuners as well as USB OTA tuners, DVR APIs built into the new Android TV 7.0), the Shield TV is the most likely candidate at this point to emerge as the lowest-cost one-box streaming+OTA DVR alternative to TiVo. We'll see...


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## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

tarheelblue32 said:


> That's a functionality that TiVo will probably announce is "coming soon" and will take them 2 years to implement.


TiVo in 2013: "Streaming over LTE coming to iPhone Q1 2014"


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## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

As I have said before, there is nothing in the market right now better than TiVo Roamio OTA. I don't see this being better than Roamio OTA. For people who own the Roamio OTA already (like myself) there is zero reason to get the new TiVo thingy (Mantis or whatever will be called).

I am really hoping this is not going to be the product announced in a week or so. From Ira's answers to questions, it does not look so, but, you never know....


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

thyname said:


> As I have said before, there is nothing in the market right now better than TiVo Roamio OTA. I don't see this being better than Roamio OTA. For people who own the Roamio OTA already (like myself) there is zero reason to get the new TiVo thingy (Mantis or whatever will be called).
> 
> I am really hoping this is not going to be the product announced in a week or so. From Ira's answers to questions, it does not look so, but, you never know....


We already know from a leak on the CEDIA website that it will be the Bolt+ announced there at the convention in Dallas next week. I guess it's possible that the Mantis could be announced there too but folks are assuming it's the thing that Ira mentioned would be announced at CES in Jan.

If you're happy with the streaming app capabilities of the Roamio OTA or don't mind switching between the Roamio OTA and a separate streaming box to meet your viewing needs AND you're happy with your current capabilities to watch recordings from your Roamio OTA on various non-TV devices (with the help of a TiVo Stream device), then I would agree that there's no good reason why you'd be interested in the TiVo Mantis. It probably won't improve on the Roamio OTA in terms of core DVR functionality and may, in fact, be a step down (possibly with live channel buffering and/or fewer tuners).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah the advantages of something like this compared to a Roamio OTA...

1) Can be anywhere in your home, so no need to get antenna signal near a TV
2) Can be expanded to more TVs using cheap streaming stick devices, rather then $120+ Mini (maybe even directly via smart TV?)
3) Same streaming stick can be used to access hundreds of apps that may not be available on a TiVo
4) Can be expanded to whatever capacity you want based on your needs/budget
5) Hopefully will be cheaper then a full blow OTA unit


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Well the tablo 2 tuner model runs about $200 and a USB Hardrive is going to be at least $50 - so at minimum you are into a tablo for ~ $250 and that assumes you already have at least one streaming box @ another $40 to $50. And and let's not forget the $5 a month service fee.

A Roamio OTA comes in at $400 flat

We already know most of these OTA guys can't do math, but the TiVo solution would have to be a damn good deal to make any sense.

Especially considering the user experience between a Full TiVo and a streaming app...

It will be interesting to see what they come up with. One nice thing about the Rovi merger is TiVo doesn't have to pay a third party for guide data any longer.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There is nothing preventing them from porting the full TiVo experience over to an app. They rewrote the UI of the TiVo a few years ago using HAXE which allows them to cross compile to many different platforms. I wouldn't expect them to release something like this and expect people to use a limited UI app like the current FireTV one. That would just be silly. They need full management capabilities if the box itself is headless. And as I mentioned above as long as they transcode as the show is being recorded all the trick play shortcomings of the current streaming implementation go away. You could watch on a Roku and the experience would be the same as a current Mini.

As for price... I wouldn't expect them to take the current "value" of the Roamio OTA into account. They'll likely mimic the competition. So if the Tablo is $200 + $5/mo the TiVo will likely be in the same ball park. It may not even offer a "lifetime" option.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Considering my last post again, I suppose a $200 Device creates a point of entry cost that is more palatable to some users.

If TiVo were to eliminate avoid a service fee it could put a huge dent in tablo sales.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> If TiVo were to eliminate avoid a service fee it could put a huge dent in tablo sales.


I doubt that. They've been trying for years to figure out the secret formula to get people to pay monthly rather then for lifetime. I suspect they'll take another stab at that with this new box as well.


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## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

NashGuy said:


> If you're happy with the streaming app capabilities of the Roamio OTA or don't mind switching between the Roamio OTA and a separate streaming box to meet your viewing needs AND you're happy with your current capabilities to watch recordings from your Roamio OTA on various non-TV devices .


YES to all of those. So no Mantis for me. Happy with Roamio OTA


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

bradleys said:


> Well the tablo 2 tuner model runs about $200 and a USB Hardrive is going to be at least $50 - so at minimum you are into a tablo for ~ $250 and that assumes you already have at least one streaming box @ another $40 to $50. And and let's not forget the $5 a month service fee.
> 
> A Roamio OTA comes in at $400 flat
> 
> ...


I think part of the pricing decision and consumer psychology for a network DVR (like Tablo) is that the buyer has already spent money on the streamer (Roku, Fire TV, etc.), is used to it, and likes it. And also that he and/or his family like watching "TV" (e.g. Netflix, YouTube, etc.) on laptops, tablets and phones around the house, all devices which the network DVR could wirelessly feed. So the network DVR is additive to a system that's already in place and works for him.

The reason that a network DVR might appeal to me, as a current Roamio OTA user, is that TiVo is a crap streaming platform and, while I do care about OTA TV, a quality streaming experience is more important to me.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Any idea what kind of sales numbers tablo is pulling off?

Dan, I Seem to remember a video that had a more complet UI running off a streamer. Am I crazy, I can't seem to find it at the moment.


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## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah the advantages of something like this compared to a Roamio OTA...
> 
> 1) Can be anywhere in your home, so no need to get antenna signal near a TV
> 2) Can be expanded to more TVs using cheap streaming stick devices, rather then $120+ Mini (maybe even directly via smart TV?)
> ...


While I agree with most of your observations, I can easily make a longer list of Roamio OTA advantages


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> Dan, I Seem to remember a video that had a more complet UI running off a streamer. Am I crazy, I can't seem to find it at the moment.


There was one from a few years ago. IIRC it was running in a browser on a PC and was a demo at the cable show.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

thyname said:


> While I agree with most of your observations, I can easily make a longer list of Roamio OTA advantages


I could too. Each person values different things though. TiVo has been trying to make traditional DVRs take off for years and has had very limited success. Perhaps they think that this type of setup will allow them to appeal to more of the cord cutter crowd.

There was also mention about integration with some sort of cloud DVR, we don't know what that portion entails yet. If they partner with one of the OTT skinny bundle services, like PSVue, and can integrate that directly into their UI that could be a HUGE boon for a product like this.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> I know you do, Harper.
> 
> I know this isn't what you're talking about, but if TiVo is really on the ball, the Mantis will also work with existing TiVo DVRs and Minis as an extra set of OTA tuners that are automatically incorporated into those boxes' functionality when the Mantis is added to the same home network, as others have discussed above.
> 
> But I think the thrust of how this thing is marketed will simply be as a headless network OTA DVR, a direct competitor to Tablo.


I hope it's more than that! 



Dan203 said:


> I could too. Each person values different things though. TiVo has been trying to make traditional DVRs take off for years and has had very limited success. Perhaps they think that this type of setup will allow them to appeal to more of the cord cutter crowd.
> 
> There was also mention about integration with some sort of cloud DVR, we don't know what that portion entails yet. If they partner with one of the OTT skinny bundle services, like PSVue, and can integrate that directly into their UI that could be a HUGE boon for a product like this.


I've been wondering why there hasn't been more talk of the cloud DVR too, Dan.

I'm thinking, as NashGuy knows, that they'd partner with someone they already have a business relationship with, Evolution Digital, maker of the eBox with TiVo GUI, and their eVUE-TV service.

This was hinted at I believe in the press release announcing the Rovi acquisition being official today, when they mentioned ".....emerging providers.....".


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> As for price... I wouldn't expect them to take the current "value" of the Roamio OTA into account. They'll likely mimic the competition. So if the Tablo is $200 + $5/mo the TiVo will likely be in the same ball park. It may not even offer a "lifetime" option.


Tablo offers yearly ($50) and lifetime ($150) service options, so I fully expect TiVo to match those prices.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

There's mention of "cloud DVR" in the FCC filing for the Mantis? This is the first I've read of that. Perhaps you have the option to upload copies of your recordings to TiVo's cloud so that you can access them anywhere you are in the world with an internet connection? The powerful cloud server could do real-time transcoding/bitrate adaptation to optimize for your device's internet connection. And since you wouldn't be sourcing the file as you view it from your home device, you wouldn't be constrained by your ISP's relatively slow upload speeds. 

Doesn't Plex offer something like this as part of their Plex Pass feature set?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Found it...

Yeah, Dan you may be correct... So this video shows a more complete TiVo UI running on an Amazon Fire TV accessing a cloud DVR. *Go to 38 minutes to the demo.*

With the Mantis you could consider that you are hosting your own little cloud...


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Maybe you're right that the MSOs will continue to offer CableCARD access for several years even if the current app-based plan under FCC consideration passes. But if I'm Comcast, why bother with the hassle of provisioning and pairing CableCARDs for 1% (and shrinking) of my customer base if I'm not forced to by the FCC? And if the FCC forces MSO to continue supporting CableCARD indefinitely (or at least until they retire QAM some time down the road), then can the current app-based plan be considered a "replacement" for CableCARD?


I don't think apps replace CableCard. The problem is that Comcast will probably start dropping channels off of QAM in 2018, and quite possibly next year there will be new channels/packages launched on IPTV. If you're on a more basic package, you might have a couple more years, but IPTV is coming, so the CableCard mandate becomes irrelevant anyway unless you just want SD or local channels, if even that.



Dan203 said:


> Sounds like it will always transcode. But if done right you can transcode without a significant quality loss.


There's always some quality loss, and if you're transcoding for a big screen, that's not something that you're necessarily going to watch to stream out to mobile devices, and definitely not out of the house. So are you then going to re-encode again?



bradleys said:


> So I think you can consider this just a Stand Alone OTA TiVo Stream with it's own tuners..


I'm hoping that Minis get direct access to it like they do for an OTA or Roamio. But we'll see I guess. There's just nothing like the TiVo experience with the Peanut and native TiVo hardware.



atmuscarella said:


> In the end the cable company game is to string the FCC along, long enough to get to IP TV without regulation. Satellite & IPTV delivery doesn't have any requirements now and that is where cable wants to be. Unless congress and the FCC grow some back bones, I have near zero belief that there will be any Government requirement for third part device access to Satellite or IPTV Pay TV systems in the future.


Comcast and Cox (which is a separate company but technologically is a more advanced version of Comcast, with basically the same pricing and X1, but running on 1ghz plants with SDV) are going to go IPTV, and my sense is, they will leave CableCard alone, and just let it die on it's own as they move to IPTV, and leave CableCard to have a smaller and smaller number of QAM channels available.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bradleys said:


> I don't think this is meant to be paired with a full TiVo. I think this will simply drive the mobile and Amazon Fire apps using a couple OTA tuners. Would it need, does it have a buffer? I suspect the answer is no... I suspect they will allow live tv transcode without trick play and the ability to record with the same trickplay experience you would get in today's mobile apps - extended for all the major streaming devices (Roku, Apple, Amazon) This is a similar to how tablo, et al work. You cannot send livetv direct to these streaming devices without transcoding - so you are going to find the live tv options to be very limited. Today the mobile apps do not allow live tv at all!


I sincerely hope you are wrong because a separate environment in a space that is largely already covered, including by your own line of products, is not a big step forward.

The price of a roamio OTA is not the hardware. It is the software. What does TiVo bring to the table if not their software.

A smaller, scalable box that can fit into their existing framework makes sense. A cheap OTA box limited to what it can do does not.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> I sincerely hope you are wrong because a separate environment in a space that is largely already covered, including by your own line of products, is not a big step forward.
> 
> The price of a roamio OTA is not the hardware. It is the software. What does TiVo bring to the table if not their software.
> 
> A smaller, scalable box that can fit into their existing framework makes sense. A cheap OTA box limited to what it can do does not.


Well, I am changing my mind a little on this - although it is absolutely possible that the TiVo apps will simply be repurposed mobile apps, the video I posted above shows a full feature UI running on an Amazon Fire streaming box.

The question is how many devices does TiVo want to support?

Will a rich UI work on a streaming stick just as well as it will work on a streaming box? I don't know... You can see a comparison in memory and processor power between the two devices on this link - it is pretty significant:

https://developer.amazon.com/public...re-tv/docs/device-and-platform-specifications

Also consider that Tablo's UI is similar in design to the TiVo Fire app...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bradleys said:


> Well, I am changing my mind a little on this - although it is absolutely possible that the TiVo apps will simply be repurposed mobile apps, the video I posted above shows a full feature UI running on an Amazon Fire streaming box. The question is how many devices does TiVo want to support? Will a rich UI work on a streaming stick just as well as it will work on a streaming box? I don't know... But consider this, Tablos UI is similar in design to the TiVo Fire app...


It isn't that hard to have a UI on multiple devices. Netflix has done it for years and years as have many others. And just dumping the OTA stream even with some Dvr capability into streaming devices is not a differentiator. But given that TiVo already does OTA already and they do Dvr already and they do device streaming already (minus are really streaming clients for roamios and bolts), it makes sense to have a scalable product that fits into a TiVo ecosystem and can work on its own either as a pure streamer or as a Dvr with additional hardware.

Making another system divorced from what they already have is strong themselves up in competition with themselves and introduces all kinds of internal costs (development, marketing, support). Expanding and offering a spectrum dovetails and can expand their market share.

I didn't think of it but once I saw the mantis and did some reading, it is so obvious it is brilliant.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> There's mention of "cloud DVR" in the FCC filing for the Mantis? This is the first I've read of that. .......


No, but TiVo has been mentioning it for awhile now supposedly.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yeah I agree with this. Channel surfing on my Minis is painfully slow. On SDV channels it takes approximately 5 seconds to change the channel. Transcoding would probably make it take about that long.


I noticed that the story at The Verge today about the new TiVo UI is titled "TiVo's new interface will cut down on channel surfing". I wonder if that's a line that TiVo PR is pushing as one of the benefits/goals of the new UI? Given the amount of time it takes to change channels with a Mini, as well as for those who have SDV, and which it may take with the Mantis if it has to build a transcoded buffer before showing a channel, I can see why TiVo would want to discourage channel surfing.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Channel surfing is dying anyway. It's mostly older people, who are use to watching TV the old way, that still do it.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Channel surfing is dying anyway. It's mostly older people, who are use to watching TV the old way, that still do it.


Eh? Speak up, I can't hear you sonny!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Channel surfing is dying anyway. It's mostly older people, who are use to watching TV the old way, that still do it.


Oh god, my dad does that on their X1 box. Drives me nuts. I'm like "look at the &%$#ing guide" everytime he does it in front of me.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Channel surfing is always annoying when someone else is doing it but I don't find it annoying at all when I'm doing it, ha! I like to take a spin around the channel block a lot of times when I turn on the TV, although given that I only have OTA, the block isn't that big.


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## danm628 (May 14, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Channel surfing is dying anyway. It's mostly older people, who are use to watching TV the old way, that still do it.


I resent that... 

Occasionally I will go channel surfing. Usually if it's late when I'm worn out but can't go to sleep. I'll flip through the channels. Sometimes surfing and sometimes using the guide. Occasionally I find something new to watch that way and create a 1P. Often those are older shows that I watched when I was a kid or teenager and didn't realize were being rebroadcast.

Usually I'll watch those rebroadcasts for a few episodes then slowly stop watching. Later I'll delete the 1P. Just because I enjoyed it when I was a younger doesn't mean it's worth watching now. Or that there isn't something better I'd rather watch instead.

I end up doing this about once a year.

- Dan


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Channel surfing is dying anyway. It's mostly older people, who are use to watching TV the old way, that still do it.


It seems just the opposite now. With younger people watching TV the way we did decades ago. with these services that give you no way to pause, FF, rewind etc. It's the young people that are watching like the old days. I'll stop watching TV before I go back to the way I watched TV in the seventies.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Channel surfing is dying anyway. It's mostly older people, who are use to watching TV the old way, that still do it.


I dunno. We used to pick up the TV Guide to see what was on. So the guide is now electronic.

Channel surfing in its strictest form (just pushing up and down) is pretty much dead but channel surfing using the guide is far from dead.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Channel surfing in its strictest form (just pushing up and down) is pretty much dead but channel surfing using the guide is far from dead.


If you're just picking from the guide then channel change speed is less of an issue. It's really only a problem for people just pushing up/down to go from channel to channel.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> If you're just picking from the guide then channel change speed is less of an issue. It's really only a problem for people just pushing up/down to go from channel to channel.


Yes and no.

I can feel the difference on my Minis versus the Bolt. But, yes, for slamming through the shows, you are right.

I just like to think that I surf with a board rather than body surf.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> Eh? Speak up, I can't hear you sonny!


bradleys, he said.....

*"CHANNEL SURFING IS DYING ANYWAY. IT'S MOSTLY OLDER PEOPLE, WHO ARE USE(D) TO WATCHING TV THE OLD WAY, THAT STILL DO IT."*


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

old people still channel surfing looking for boobs? sheesh!


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

TonyD79 said:


> I dunno. We used to pick up the TV Guide to see what was on. So the guide is now electronic.
> 
> Channel surfing in its strictest form (just pushing up and down) is pretty much dead but channel surfing using the guide is far from dead.


Necessity, habit, and preference are different things. We channel surfed because there was no EPG. You had to get off the couch to find the TV Guide. In the beginning, there was no random access...










(Before that, I was the remote control.)

You tend to memorize certain keys on the remote. Channel up/down tends to have a special share and is easier to hit in the dark than a number. It's worse now with sub channels. I tend to use the navigation keys to surf because the description for the selected channel is bigger than the info on the EPG. That's just me, but it's a preference.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

Hopefully in a few years something like this will be able to serve a couple of ATSC 3.0 streams to my Roamio so I can keep the old girl.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

wizwor said:


> Necessity, habit, and preference are different things. We channel surfed because there was no EPG. You had to get off the couch to find the TV Guide. In the beginning, there was no random access...


That logic worked when there are 3 channels. It worked pretty well when there were 5 or 6 channels. It wasn't horrible when there were 30 or 40 or 50 analog channels connected directly to the TV. It falls apart entirely when there are 400 channels, 120 or more in HD, with a box and digital signals that take a while to change channels.


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## darin2 (Sep 12, 2016)

interesting


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Bigg said:


> That logic worked when there are 3 channels. It worked pretty well when there were 5 or 6 channels. It wasn't horrible when there were 30 or 40 or 50 analog channels connected directly to the TV. It falls apart entirely when there are 400 channels, 120 or more in HD, with a box and digital signals that take a while to change channels.


One of the things I hated about Comcast was the inability to remove channels from the guide/lineup. I aggressively manage my list (45 channels right now) and surfing still works for me. File this under preference.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

wizwor said:


> One of the things I hated about Comcast was the inability to remove channels from the guide/lineup. I aggressively manage my list (45 channels right now) and surfing still works for me. File this under preference.


I keep my list much bigger because who knows what will pop up on what station. Say I had no interest in British TV (I do. It is just and example.) If I took BBCA out of the guide, I would miss that they are running a Star Trek original series marathon.

I basically only remove most religious channels, telemarketers and SD duplicates. I am smart enough to skip over things I am not interested in.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I uncheck anything that's not HD. I'm an HD snob and refuse to watch anything that's not HD even if it's otherwise something I'd be interested in.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Anything think TiVo is buying those Broadcom chips that power the Bolt and Bolt+ in volume to get discounted pricing and they'll use them in the upcoming Mantis and Mini 4K too? Since those chips can only transcode two streams at a time, and since we're thinking the Mantis will transcode everything that comes off each tuner before storing it to the HDD, this would suggest that the Mantis would only have two OTA tuners (which is what I was already thinking, to keep prices down and because that's about the norm in the OTA DVR space anyhow). OTOH, I guess there's no reason why the Mantis would need 4K/UHD capabilities, so maybe there's a significantly cheaper chip that can transcode as well but only handle 1080p. The Mini will, of course, need 4K/UHD streaming capabilities but wouldn't need to transcode anything (although maybe that could be a bonus feature since the Bolt and Bolt+ can only handle two transcoded streams vs. four for the Roamio Pro).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The Mantis doesn't need to be 4K. It's headless and there is nothing being broadcast in 4K anyway. No guarantee it will even use a Broadcom chipset since it's a whole new product and wont need to have a full blown OS/UI on it like current TiVos do. 

The Mini will likely use the sister chip to the one being used in the Bolt. Just like the current Mini uses the sister chip to the Premiere. It would be overkill to use a full blown DVR chipset in a Mini.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Ya unless TiVo knows something about ATSC 3.0 that would allow them to build ATSC 3.0 tuners into the Mantis it will never be anything but an ATSC 1.0 device - so no 4K needed. 

A new Mini is where they need to get 4K streaming going.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Ira confirmed that the new Mini coming out in 2017 will feature UHD. But, no, as I said, no need for UHD in the Mantis. It's still way too early for ATSC 3.0 consumer products.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> Ira confirmed that the new Mini coming out in 2017 will feature UHD. But, no, as I said, no need for UHD in the Mantis. It's still way too early for ATSC 3.0 consumer products.


My point was that neither one is likely to use the same chipset as the Bolt/Bolt+, so it's unlikely they're buying these chips in bulk because of these upcoming products.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> I uncheck anything that's not HD. I'm an HD snob and refuse to watch anything that's not HD even if it's otherwise something I'd be interested in.


Huh. There's a ton of programs I still enjoy going back and watching that were made before HD was developed.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

LoadStar said:


> Huh. There's a ton of programs I still enjoy going back and watching that were made before HD was developed.


Not me. Even if they're DVD quality and properly pillar boxed I still get annoyed. Too much other stuff out there, with better quality, that I could be watching.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

wizwor said:


> One of the things I hated about Comcast was the inability to remove channels from the guide/lineup. I aggressively manage my list (45 channels right now) and surfing still works for me. File this under preference.


Works fine on my TiVo.  I have most of the duplicated SD channels (that have an HD version) deleted too.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Comcast has improved a lot since I left in 2010 from what I see in the commercials. In 2010, we had had Comcast for two years after having Dish for ten years. We were pretty happy to replace our Comcast DVRs with DTVPal OTA DVRs which were visually and functionally similar to the Dish DVRs.


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

OK, I see this thread has just about been talked out but I've been trying to wrap my head around exactly what the Mantis product is in pretty simple terms. I realize we don't have all the facts but from what I've read I'm looking at this as basically a TiVo Stream with a couple of built in tuners? Presumably it will be able to stream to many more devices such as Roku, Apple TV, Fire stick/TV, etc? Unknowns are how storage will be handled, most likely external but perhaps cloud storage too?

I could definitely see a market for this if the price points are a enough better than a Roamio OTA especially as the target buyers probably already own a streamer or two. It would simplify installations especially for multi screen homes and the cost per screen can be as low as $30 for a basic streamer vs $150 per Mini. The Mantis unit can be located more easily to connect to an attic or rooftop antenna. I tend to help a few people each year who cut to cord. The opposition I tend to find to TiVo is it's initial cost, the high cost to expand to more TV's, and the hassles with all of the hard wiring required for a traditional TiVo/mini setup. This product would be more appealing to many of them and simpler to set up.


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## Luke M (Nov 5, 2002)

It looks like a Slingbox type product, if you replaced the analog input with antenna in. I would expect it to be inexpensive.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It's like a Tablo. Look that up if you want exact details. But basically it's a headless DVR where you supply the hard drive. You interact with it using an app on a streaming device like a Roku or FireTV. 

The 4 tuner Tablo is actually not that cheap. It's $300 and you have to buy the hard drive separately. Where it's cheaper is the service. The service only costs $5/mo, $50/year or $150/lifetime.


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## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> It's like a Tablo. Look that up if you want exact details. But basically it's a headless DVR where you supply the hard drive. You interact with it using an app on a streaming device like a Roku or FireTV.
> 
> The 4 tuner Tablo is actually not that cheap. It's $300 and you have to buy the hard drive separately. Where it's cheaper is the service. The service only costs $5/mo, $50/year or $150/lifetime.


So a 4-tuner Tablo WITHOUT hard drive and Lifetime costs $450, plus the streaming device (Roku, etc).

A Roamio OTA WITH hard drive included and Lifetime costs $400. Plus the great whole home DVR implementation of TiVo echo system with Minis.

Just saying.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

thyname said:


> So a 4-tuner Tablo WITHOUT hard drive and Lifetime costs $450, plus the streaming device (Roku, etc).
> 
> A Roamio OTA WITH hard drive included and Lifetime costs $400. Plus the great whole home DVR implementation of TiVo echo system with Minis.
> 
> Just saying.


Yeb and we still have people complaining that even at $400 the Roamio OTA cost to much for OTA users.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

thyname said:


> So a 4-tuner Tablo WITHOUT hard drive and Lifetime costs $450, plus the streaming device (Roku, etc).
> 
> A Roamio OTA WITH hard drive included and Lifetime costs $400. Plus the great whole home DVR implementation of TiVo echo system with Minis.
> 
> Just saying.


I think the main issue people have with the TiVo OTA is the lack of apps on the platform. A Tablo like device integrates the DVR into an app on a better apps platform. I think that "cord cutters" will find that to be a better solution.

I also suspect that the Mantis will include access to a new cloud based DVR and skinny bundle akin to PSVue.


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I think the main issue people have with the TiVo OTA is the lack of apps on the platform. A Tablo like device integrates the DVR into an app on a better apps platform. I think that "cord cutters" will find that to be a better solution.
> 
> I also suspect that the Mantis will include access to a new cloud based DVR and skinny bundle akin to PSVue.


I have the Tablo 4 tuner and it is ok but there are a couple things that make it unacceptable:
1. Frequent synch'ing of some sort of database between Tablo and devices. This can take a loooooong time even on a wired network. It is not like the Tivo app where guide data and recording show up within 1-2 seconds. Think 30 seconds minimum to many mnutes initially. If you don't connect frequently the sync event can take a long time and precludes you from using the device. Sad they architected it this way.
2. Very slow channel change time/buffering on initiating playback. 10+ seconds between channel changes is unacceptable. apparently they change channels, prime the transcoder and buffer data before sending it out to the requesting device. Starting remote playback take 30+ seconds.
3. No native recodings (you always transcode), and no surround AC3 support.
Setup was impossible over wireless and until I connected the device through cat6 I almost gave up and I am a technical person. The average consumer would not tolerate this. Maybe it was my Samsung phone but it happened on 2 different models.
I still have missing artwork for some shows but most populated within a few days. The box runs hot. I have a 1TB external drive attached. 
I have several Tivo S3's and a Roamio Pro as well as numerous other DVR's.
The Tablo was an interesting development and I pre-ordered but don't use it nearly as much as the daily Tivo.


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## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

qz3fwd said:


> I have the Tablo 4 tuner and it is ok but there are a couple things that make it unacceptable:
> 1. Frequent synch'ing of some sort of database between Tablo and devices. This can take a loooooong time even on a wired network. It is not like the Tivo app where guide data and recording show up within 1-2 seconds. Think 30 seconds minimum to many mnutes initially. If you don't connect frequently the sync event can take a long time and precludes you from using the device. Sad they architected it this way.
> 2. Very slow channel change time/buffering on initiating playback. 10+ seconds between channel changes is unacceptable. apparently they change channels, prime the transcoder and buffer data before sending it out to the requesting device. Starting remote playback take 30+ seconds.
> 3. No native recodings (you always transcode), and no surround AC3 support.
> ...


Thanks. That's good feedback, and I appreciate you posting it.

When I was doing my antenna project, I bought an HDHomeRun (two tuner). Long story short, I returned it. It was not even close to what I'd get with a Roamio OTA, which I did and happy with.

I also have a Bolt+ on Verizon FIOS and two Minis. The entire echosystem with TiVo on both cable and antenna is a pleasure to have and enjoy.

Call me TiVo fanboy if you want. I don't care. It works great for me.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

qz3fwd said:


> I have the Tablo 4 tuner and it is ok but there are a couple things that make it unacceptable:
> 1. Frequent synch'ing of some sort of database between Tablo and devices. This can take a loooooong time even on a wired network. It is not like the Tivo app where guide data and recording show up within 1-2 seconds. Think 30 seconds minimum to many mnutes initially. If you don't connect frequently the sync event can take a long time and precludes you from using the device. Sad they architected it this way.
> 2. Very slow channel change time/buffering on initiating playback. 10+ seconds between channel changes is unacceptable. apparently they change channels, prime the transcoder and buffer data before sending it out to the requesting device. Starting remote playback take 30+ seconds.
> 3. No native recodings (you always transcode), and no surround AC3 support.
> ...


The transcoding all the time is a necessary evil for this type of device because the streaming devices don't support the native formats most shows are broadcast in. (i.e. MPEG2 or interlaced) So it's highly likely the TiVo device will do the same thing.

The rest of your issues appear to be software issues and TiVo's current apps handle this much better then what you describe. So I'd hope that there apps for other streaming platforms will work similarly.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

The Mantis becomes the Mavrik.

TiVo Mavrik Takes On Tablo For Television Streaming


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## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

TiVo Mavrik Takes On Tablo For Television Streaming


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## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

Somebody spotted this earlier today over at Mini forum:

What is this new TiVO Mavrik about? Here is a tivo setup link...


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The Mantis becomes the Mavrik.
> 
> TiVo Mavrik Takes On Tablo For Television Streaming


I hadn't noticed it earlier, but I find it interesting that there is *ZERO TiVo branding* on the product in that image.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Cloud service

TiVo Mavrik is an OTA Cloud DVR!


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

So how much do we think TiVo is going to charge for cloud storage? It's an interesting math problem. Whatever they do, I sure hope it performs better than my Roamio streaming - let's get trickplay working reliably and let's integrate commercial skip.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I hipe cloud storage isn't the only option. I'd still hope they have the option to connect a USB drive for locql storage or at least a small internal drive.

I wonder if this will still support multi-room streaming to other TiVos and Minis? If so I may consider getting one for my OTA recording needs and give my Bolt to my sister.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Link to Dropbox, Box, Google Drive, etc?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Unless the Mavrik is able to avoid the kinds of problems the Tablo has, especially the wait times for live channel changing, I will have zero interest in it. I also have zero interest in cloud storage. Besides that, I'm concerned about HD PQ loss (and maybe loss of 5.1 sound) due to transcoding from 1080i MPEG2 to (likely) 720p MPEG4. But I have a feeling TiVo isn't targeting folks like me with this product.

At this point, I'm not sure what my next set-up will look like. I've ordered a new LG OLED TV and, for awhile anyhow, plan to use its built-in WebOS apps for streaming via Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, Plex, VUDU, Crackle and Pandora. Its Netflix, Amazon and VUDU apps all support UHD Dolby Vision, unlike any current STB (I think). Hopefully it eventually gets HBO Now and CBSN apps but, if not, I may just pick up a cheap Chromecast and use my Android phone for those services. (Apparently Chromecast playback can be controlled by the TV remote thanks to HDMI-CEC.)

I'll continue using my Roamio OTA until I find a better solution. Maybe 2017 will see a next-gen Nvidia Shield Android TV that supports Dolby Vision and also has a fully-baked OTA DVR solution.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Slow channel changing is always going to be an issue with devices like this. They transcode everything and that extra step takes a couple extra seconds. Not to mention whatever buffering needs to occur to account for the wifi performance of the streaming devices being used to play the content. It's highly unlikely their channel change times will be any better then Tablo for live TV.

Quality doesn't have to be 720p and they don't have to get rid of 5.1 audio. Most devices these days support 1080p too, so they could use 720p for 720p sources and 1080p for 1080i sources. The streaming formats like Dash and HLS also support multiple audio streams, so there is nothing preventing them from preserving the original 5.1 audio and transcoding to 2.0 AAC for devices that don't support 5.1.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

If this thing is trying to upload recorded TV, this is completely insane. Your average broadband subscriber in the US is working with a 5mbps upload, so the thing would need a ton of flash storage to buffer uploads, and the uploads would often take all night if a few things are recorded in the evening.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Quality doesn't have to be 720p and they don't have to get rid of 5.1 audio. Most devices these days support 1080p too, so they could use 720p for 720p sources and 1080p for 1080i sources. The streaming formats like Dash and HLS also support multiple audio streams, so there is nothing preventing them from preserving the original 5.1 audio and transcoding to 2.0 AAC for devices that don't support 5.1.


Yeah, that's all true, although if the Mavrik only performs a single transcoding for each recording, doing it at 720p would help in terms of bandwidth efficiency for streaming to various devices and also make the recording compatible with more devices, as some TVs/phones/tablets/computer monitors cannot display 1080 resolution. But I guess that's only a concern or possibility if we're assuming that the Mavrik will maintain recordings on a local hard drive like the Tablo TV (which can be set to record at 1080p, 720p or 480p). If it MUST be used with cloud storage, then I would guess that TiVo's servers (or, more likely, Amazon's cloud storage servers rented by TiVo) would be able to do whatever transcoding is needed on-the-fly, optimized for the specific recipient device and current network conditions.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bigg said:


> If this thing is trying to upload recorded TV, this is completely insane. Your average broadband subscriber in the US is working with a 5mbps upload, so the thing would need a ton of flash storage to buffer uploads, and the uploads would often take all night if a few things are recorded in the evening.


I agree. That seems like a bad idea.

I think that may Zats is reading too much into the "Tier" tab on the setup screen. I'm still hoping that this will integrate with some sort of OTT skinny bundle service and that is the purpose of the tier tab. Those channels can be recorded in the cloud and the local OTT channels could be recorded to a local drive, and the UI could integrate them seamlessly so you don't even know where the recording is coming from.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I agree. That seems like a bad idea.
> 
> I think that may Zats is reading too much into the "Tier" tab on the setup screen. I'm still hoping that this will integrate with some sort of OTT skinny bundle service and that is the purpose of the tier tab. Those channels can be recorded in the cloud and the local OTT channels could be recorded to a local drive, and the UI could integrate them seamlessly so you don't even know where the recording is coming from.


Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. However, they could do that already with the Roamio OTA, but maybe they want to be able to do an app-based experience on Roku, Apple TV, Fire TV, or Chromecast devices, figuring that cord cutters already have these devices.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

From my point of view cloud storage really only makes sense if we are talking about using the cloud storage for some OTT cable replacement package and recording OTA locally. There are plenty of people with slow upload speeds that would make OTA recordings even ones converted to h.264 nearly impossible to upload. 

Also do we know that all recordings will automatically be convert to MPEG 4/h.264? I know that is needed if you are streaming it to most of the various streaming devices (Roku, Fire TV, etc.) and Android or iOS devices. But computers, TiVo DVRs, & TiVo Minis could handle the unaltered MPEG 2 streams just fine. 

This will also be the first TiVo device since their Series 2 DVRs that isn't designed to comply with cable card requirements. Does that alter what TiVo has to do to "protect" the recordings? Could the OTA recordings be completely unprotected?


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

My OTA only 1TB Roamio that I recently bought doesn't have any protected recordings that I'm aware of.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

BrettStah said:


> My OTA only 1TB Roamio that I recently bought doesn't have any protected recordings that I'm aware of.


They are all .TiVo files which are "protected", the protection just doesn't prevent you from copying them to a computer. Cable card requirements are also part of the reason why you can not just plug a USB drive into your TiVo and transfer files to it. The cable card requirements have a number of "protection" type restrictions, that are not required when just recording an OTA broadcasts but are still there with a Roamio OTA because it and the software where designed to comply with all cable card requirements.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Ah, thanks!


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. However, they could do that already with the Roamio OTA, but maybe they want to be able to do an app-based experience on Roku, Apple TV, Fire TV, or Chromecast devices, figuring that cord cutters already have these devices.


I think TiVo's attitude here is "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". And TiVo can't beat those popular streamers, either in their app platform (availability and performance of apps) or in hardware sales. So rather than try to make a quality DVR+streamer, I think the idea is "Lots of people already have quality streamers, let's just tackle the DVR part as a solution that plugs into those streamers."


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> I think TiVo's attitude here is "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". And TiVo can't beat those popular streamers, either in their app platform (availability and performance of apps) or in hardware sales. So rather than try to make a quality DVR+streamer, I think the idea is "Lots of people already have quality streamers, let's just tackle the DVR part as a solution that plugs into those streamers."


I think you are correct. We already know they will have an app for Amazon Fire TV devices that appears will also work with stock android tablets/phones, will be interesting to see what other platforms they decide to support.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> I think TiVo's attitude here is "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". And TiVo can't beat those popular streamers, either in their app platform (availability and performance of apps) or in hardware sales. So rather than try to make a quality DVR+streamer, I think the idea is "Lots of people already have quality streamers, let's just tackle the DVR part as a solution that plugs into those streamers."


Yeah, I think you're right. I just wonder what they are going to do in order to try and organize all of these different sources of content. OnePass was an effort at that, but didn't really successfully do it. I won't cut the cord because of sports, but I'm thinking if I wanted to cut the cord, how would I organize content between all the various content sources. I'm already annoyed by having a totally separate interface for HBO Go from my TiVo, but I don't really want to pay for HBO for now, so I put up with it. Then add in OTT SVOD like Amazon and Netflix, and it's kind of a mess.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> Yeah, I think you're right. I just wonder what they are going to do in order to try and organize all of these different sources of content. OnePass was an effort at that, but didn't really successfully do it. I won't cut the cord because of sports, but I'm thinking if I wanted to cut the cord, how would I organize content between all the various content sources. I'm already annoyed by having a totally separate interface for HBO Go from my TiVo, but I don't really want to pay for HBO for now, so I put up with it. Then add in OTT SVOD like Amazon and Netflix, and it's kind of a mess.


Yep. And as a cord cutter who subscribes to two to four of those subscription services in any given month, that's exactly the situation I deal with. The idea of having all that content, along with OTA DVR, available through a single device and organized together into a single watchlist with OnePass was what brought me to TiVo in the first place. But as you say, they didn't really pull it off. I give credit to TiVo for trying and coming closer than anyone else so far, but for me, it's just not quite there. (And apparently the issues with the listing of streaming titles in the OnePass database have gotten worse since switching to Rovi guide data, the gift that seems to keep on giving.)

Honestly, I'm not sure if or when any single device will be able to successfully do all that. I'd love a device that has all the apps I want, simply with consistent playback controls (e.g. play, rewind, etc.) across all those apps, along with a first-rate solution for live and recorded OTA TV. Never mind having a fully consistent UI between apps (even Apple TV has given up on that) or a universal browse and watchlist overlay that pulls in the content of all the major streaming services. Apple is now trying to do the latter but, since it's missing both Netflix and Amazon, it's not really that "universal".


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

This month's TiVo survey had more questions about which channels you consider "must have". I really think that we may see an OTT skinny bundle type service integrated into this Mavrik.


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## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> This month's TiVo survey had more questions about which channels you consider "must have". I really think that we may see an OTT skinny bundle type service integrated into this Mavrik.


Yep! I thought the same when I saw the survey


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

After a couple delays, some temporarily confidential Mavrik stuff was finally released by the FCC.

CPU: BCM7251
RAM: 1 GB
WiFi: BCM43570 (802.11ac)
8GB embedded memory
USB & SD card slot (SD slot may not make it to the final product)

2 tuners. The CPU has Bolt-level performance and supports 2 transcode streams.

Still no documentation regarding its actual service usage. No internal storage other than the embedded memory.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

A bring-you-own-storage DVR?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

This could be all-cloud.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Yep, I know that's what people were speculating, but I saw the USB port and started wondering. A way to sell an even less-expensive DVR along the competitors' lines. (But then, has that really been the issue with TiVo? It's the subscription charge.)


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Two MAC addresses. That would be WiFi and Ethernet.


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

Only TWO tuners? That's a step back. Four tuners should be the minimum nowadays.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

It can't be only cloud. Aside from bandwidth caps and other issues, the 8GB of storage could fill up and the thing wouldn't be able to upload everything to the cloud, as some OTA broadcasts are upwards of 18mbps. Even if it transcoded to MPEG-4 at, say, 8mbps, that's still higher than some internet connection uploads, and would create a "pile-up" of recordings to be uploaded. This thing has to be BYO storage. It's probably for cost reasons, but it's too bad they didn't just put 250GB of flash storage on the board or something, with additional USB options, as that would be enough for some users.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Aside from bandwidth caps and other issues, the 8GB of storage could fill up and the thing wouldn't be able to upload everything to the cloud, as some OTA broadcasts are upwards of 18mbps. Even if it transcoded to MPEG-4 at, say, 8mbps, that's still higher than some internet connection uploads, and would create a "pile-up" of recordings to be uploaded.


Hm, anyone remember Boxee Cloud DVR's specs? It used flash to cache but not sure how much. Of course, they aren't really the gold standard here given that product's failure and the acquihire of the company/team...


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## tluxon (Feb 28, 2002)

I'm a little late to the thread, but I was drawn here because of the experience I had when on the phone with TiVo to order a Bolt this past week. I was on the fence regarding going with the Bolt and the Bolt+ and the CS rep was unexpectedly VERY persuasive about the advantages of going with the Bolt to retain cord-cutting capability. The cord-cutting scenario was definitely a point of emphasis, so something tells me their business plan has already committed to a diminishing role for cable television in their future. Most cord-cutters are doing so on the basis of IP streaming and OTA media, so if anyone's going to marry such diverse media sources into a seamless interface, I would bet on TiVo slaying it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

davezatz said:


> Hm, anyone remember Boxee Cloud DVR's specs? It used flash to cache but not sure how much. Of course, they aren't really the gold standard here given that product's failure and the acquihire of the company/team...


I had a theory about that. My theory was that they were going to use the local DVR to verify you had access to the recording, but then simply unlock a cloud recording they made themselves using the Aereo equipment. That way no upload bandwidth is needed.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Mavrik probably transcodes video on-the-fly at the same bitrate that the Bolt/Stream/Roamio do (~2 mbps on highest quality, making 1 GB/hr files.) Since the primary target is mobile that bitrate has more or less been fine for those screens. Wouldn't be surprising if you could choose a basic or medium bitrate as well for the bandwidth-conscious. BYOHDD would be a desirable option though.

You would think an option to use a local DVR would be a logical bonus, but who knows. It's Tivo. That might come 9 months after launch.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

It looks a lot like the simple.tv v2 that was made by silicon dust. If you look closely at the back picture you can see a small "SD" logo. Do you think it's also made by them?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

My first thought was that it was for an SD card slot that got removed at some point. The motherboard has those 4 holes with no hardware. But heck knows what's going on there.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

1) Dave's analysis shows that this unit does have an SD slot at least in this reference model

2) It makes no sense that this unit would have wifi. It is just like the TiVo stream - it does not need to be located near the television. It can be located near any Ethernet drop. There is no direct output from this unit, we know it is designed to provide a feed for an app on streaming boxes / device.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> My first thought was that it was for an SD card slot that got removed at some point. The motherboard has those 4 holes with no hardware. But heck knows what's going on there.





bradleys said:


> 1) Dave's analysis shows that this unit does have an SD slot at least in this reference model.
> 
> View attachment 28343


Thanks. That makes sense what the "SD" means.


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

I had noticed the SD logo as well and even though it's fuzzy I thought it looked more like the logo for SD cards. But I noticed there didn't seem to be hardware on the circuit board to accommodate that. Had not considered if the SD stood for Silicon Dust.

As to it having just two tuner's I suspect either this is just a scaled back product not intended to replicate a full TiVo DVR experience but more for the streaming crowd to be able to integrate some OTA TV with the TiVo UI on their streaming device, or as mentioned recordings will be cloud based and not actually recorded and uploaded from the device. In our area Time Warner's standard internet is only 1Mbps up. I think that's changing now with the Spectrum takeover but those speeds don't allow much for uploading recordings or doing out of home streaming.

I think there could be a market for this with cord cutters who are primarily focused on streaming, providing the price and implementation are done right. Unfortunately I don't think TiVo has any interest in just building low cost hardware devices. So there is nearly certainly going to be some kind of fee based structure tied to it for guide data or cloud storage.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I do not know enough about hardware design to tell if the components are on that mother board or not. From Dave's photo, there is obviously a slot the size of an SD card below the label. It is also pretty reasonable based on position that any physical connector would be on the bottom of the motherboard and we are only seeing an image of the top.

That said, you guys may be seeing something from this top view that tells you that an SD card connection cannot possibly be on the underside. I would not know.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Here's the underside. I'm curious about that little slit too. I thought this was an RF shield for the tuners, but now that I look at it again, it's an SD socket.


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## hytekjosh (Dec 4, 2010)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Here's the underside. I'm curious about that little slit too. Anything going in there would seem to hit the tuner's RF shield, though. At least it looks like a shield to me.
> 
> View attachment 28344


what are you curious about? it was/is a SD card slot.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

I am surprised at how complicated the circuit board looks.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Updated my post. Yeah it might be the SD card. I thought it was an RF shield.

SD card slot for comparison:


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

bradleys said:


> It is also pretty reasonable based on position that any physical connector would be on the bottom of the motherboard and we are only seeing an image of the top.


After looking at it again, I was thinking the same thing. I'm under the impression the SD card slot is on the bottom side of the board.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MikeBear said:


> Only TWO tuners? That's a step back. Four tuners should be the minimum nowadays.


The chip they're using only supports transcoding two streams at a time. Since this thing will have to transcode everything to work properly with OTT devices like Fire TV and Roku it makes sense that it's limited by the number of transcoders. Perhaps they will release a version later that uses the same chip as the original TiVo Stream. That chip could do 4 transcodes at a time.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> 2) It makes no sense that this unit would have wifi. It is just like the TiVo stream - it does not need to be located near the television. It can be located near any Ethernet drop. There is no direct output from this unit, we know it is designed to provide a feed for an app on streaming boxes / device.


It depends on where your antenna is located. If your antenna is in a location that doesn't have easy access to ethernet then wifi would make it a lot more convenient to setup. I'm sure the instructions will recommend ethernet if available.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> After a couple delays, some temporarily confidential Mavrik stuff was finally released by the FCC.
> 
> CPU: BCM7251
> RAM: 512 MB
> ...


The two Micron chips are RAM, DDR4-2400 4GB each. Micron Technology, Inc. - MT40A256M16GE 083E

The Samsung chip is 8GB eMMC solid state storage. KLM8G1WEPD-B031 - eMMC | Samsung Semiconductor Global Website

I assume the eMMC is used for the OS and UI, just like on the Roamio/Bolt. Perhaps the live buffers too? Not sure what the purpose of the SD slot is. Seems like the USB port would be a better choice for DVR storage.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

My bad, I mixed up the density vs depth. The micron chips are 4 gigabit a pop, or a total of 1 GB RAM.

The SD card slot doesn't make a ton of sense, wondering if it's a prototype vestigial part.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I thought the RAM was 4G*B* each, so 8GB total. I missed the small b in the description. But still 2GB, not 512MB. Also your terminology for the "embedded memory" threw me off. I'd consider eMMC to be storage, not memory.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> It can't be only cloud. Aside from bandwidth caps and other issues, the 8GB of storage could fill up and the thing wouldn't be able to upload everything to the cloud, as some OTA broadcasts are upwards of 18mbps. Even if it transcoded to MPEG-4 at, say, 8mbps, that's still higher than some internet connection uploads, and would create a "pile-up" of recordings to be uploaded. This thing has to be BYO storage. It's probably for cost reasons, but it's too bad they didn't just put 250GB of flash storage on the board or something, with additional USB options, as that would be enough for some users.


I wouldn't say for sure that it can't be cloud-only. Perhaps results would be sub-optimal for some users but Mavrik may still work with just a cloud-storage subscription and without a USB hard drive connected. (TiVo would be smart to make it flexible enough to work either way.) Take a look at the single-tuner Tablo Live device that was announced at CES along with the pending Tablo Cloud service that will work with it. How much storage do you think is built into that little tuner device for local queuing of recordings before uploading to the cloud?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> It depends on where your antenna is located. If your antenna is in a location that doesn't have easy access to ethernet then wifi would make it a lot more convenient to setup. I'm sure the instructions will recommend ethernet if available.


Yeah, it would need to have Wi-Fi, like the Tablo does. Right now, I'm seeing a cheap knock-off of Tablo that's not going to have as much horsepower. I don't like the whole concept behind Tablo with transcoding everything to MPEG-4, but if that's your thing, Tablo is really good at doing it, and has 4 tuners. I'm not sure what bitrates Tablo uses, but in order to do HD with MPEG-4, the bare minimum you can transcode to in real time is about 4mbps, and it looks horrible- just ask Comcast customers. They are also transcoding on racks of servers running software encoders on an IP network, not a couple hundred dollar box, FWIW.

The SD slot is interesting. Some lighter users might be fine with 128GB of storage, especially if it's transcoding everything as it comes in. It's interesting in terms of being an elegant solution, although for well under $100, you can get a USB bus-powered 2TB or larger hard drive, so I'm not sure how practical flash storage really is.

I'm hoping that there is a 4-tuner version to go head to head with the Tablo, but with the TiVo UI and branding. That being said, doesn't the Bolt already have all the hardware needed to do the same thing that a Tablo does if TiVo wanted to branch out into a Roku app, and re-jigger the mobile live streaming interface a bit?


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

Maybe it only has two ota tuners because it will also have an ott cloud service like Vue, SlingTV, DTV Now etc.?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> I thought the RAM was 4G*B* each, so 8GB total. I missed the small b in the description. But still 2GB, not 512MB. Also your terminology for the "embedded memory" threw me off. I'd consider eMMC to be storage, not memory.


I used the website's terminology for the storage; figured people would get the idea. But 4 gigabits is half a gigabyte each.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

SD slot is where the Nintendo Switch games go. (It's probably a service port so they can easily reflash the device.)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I used the website's terminology for the storage; figured people would get the idea. But 4 gigabits is half a gigabyte each.


You're right, 4Gb x 2 is only 1 GB. Doh! My math was off twice.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Is it possible that the Mavrik could use an existing TiVo for it's storage? So you could have a TiVo on cable and use a Mavrik for two OTA tuners.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

One has to believe that TiVo's play with this has to be to people who are not TiVo customers now and are unwilling to pay what it costs for a Bolt or a Roamio OTA & stand alone Stream. So unless the cost with lifetime service is in the sub $250 range I just don't see the point. 

As far as it being useful for existing Series 4-6 owners, there might be some value assuming it will work with existing units and doesn't degrade recordings too much when they are convert to h.264 or gives users the option to stay with MPEG 2. But again it would need to cost significantly less than the current 1TB lifetimed Roamio OTA. 

In the end the only reason it really interests me is because it sets a precedent for a future hardware ATSC 3.0 upgrade path, especially for Series 6 owners.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> Is it possible that the Mavrik could use an existing TiVo for it's storage? So you could have a TiVo on cable and use a Mavrik for two OTA tuners.


That would be cool. If it was like an HDHomeRun for your current TiVo.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> That would be cool. If it was like an HDHomeRun for your current TiVo.


That would be nice. I wonder how much development work that would require to update the TiVo OS on Bolt, Roamio, etc. to recognize and use those additional tuners in the Mavrik? The less work, the more likely it is to happen, I'd imagine, especially given that Mavrik is aimed at cord-cutters who don't already own a TiVo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

atmuscarella said:


> One has to believe that TiVo's play with this has to be to people who are not TiVo customers now and are unwilling to pay what it costs for a Bolt or a Roamio OTA & stand alone Stream. So unless the cost with lifetime service is in the sub $250 range I just don't see the point.
> 
> As far as it being useful for existing Series 4-6 owners, there might be some value assuming it will work with existing units and doesn't degrade recordings too much when they are convert to h.264 or gives users the option to stay with MPEG 2. But again it would need to cost significantly less than the current 1TB lifetimed Roamio OTA.
> 
> In the end the only reason it really interests me is because it sets a precedent for a future hardware ATSC 3.0 upgrade path, especially for Series 6 owners.


Since it's cloud based I'm betting there is some sort of monthly fee. Probably multiple teirs based on how much storage you want. The hardware itself will likely be cheap though. I'm betting it's <$200. A two tuner Tablo costs $220, plus the cost of the hard drive, plus $5/mo or $150/lifetime for service. I'm assuming they're trying to stay competitive with that.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Since it's cloud based I'm betting there is some sort of monthly fee. Probably multiple teirs based on how much storage you want. The hardware itself will likely be cheap though. I'm betting it's <$200. A two tuner Tablo costs $220, plus the cost of the hard drive, plus $5/mo or $150/lifetime for service. I'm assuming they're trying to stay competitive with that.


I understand why TiVo is moving to a cloud storage option and I understand why some people would find it very useful. However if they don't have an option to just slap a USB drive on this and use it without cloud storage I think they are crazy. I have ZERO interest in cloud storage and will not consider a DVR that requires it.

If you really have to pay over $400 for a dual tuner Tablo with lifetime & 1Tb of add on storage then TiVo's current Roamio OTA even if you count buying a stand alone stream is already killing it on price. The Channel master with 1TB isn't any cheaper than the Roamio OTA either. Given that you have been able to buy a Roamio and/or Roamo OTA on and off for almost 2 years for $3-400 makes me wonder what exactly all those people who claim TiVos cost to much are buying.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Given that you have been able to buy a Roamio and/or Roamo OTA on and off for almost 2 years for $3-400 makes me wonder what exactly all those people who claim TiVos cost to much are buying.


I think it's a leftover from earlier days--until the Roamio OTA with included lifetime subscription (or a special deal on the Roamio Basic or OTA with lifetime), TiVo's with a subscription really have been a hefty expense (yes, I know, that's heresy to say out-loud). I see the current Roamio OTA as a game-changer in that regard, and hope that it stays around so that others feel that they can afford to join the TiVo ecosphere. (Of course, even better would be if TiVo had done the deal with the Roamio Basic, so that cable users could get the benefit as well (at least, without modding a Roamio OTA by adding a cable card adapter to it).)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think TiVo is selling the Roamio OTA with lifetime at a loss. It's like their loss leader to get their subscriber numbers up. It's not sustainable long term. I'm betting the Roamio OTA goes away once this thing is released. 

Because of the way the Mavrik works, and because it's all cloud based*, they don't really need a 4 tuner unit. You can just buy two if you need 4 tuners. This makes it so they can keep the hardware cheap and focus on the subscription part instead. 

* I have it on good authority that this will be primarily a cloud product and that local storage is being "considered" but is not guaranteed.


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## steinbch (Nov 23, 2007)

Looks like we are getting closer. Not sure when this updated, but there is a link on the TiVo website under "How To" for "TiVo Online" that links to a *missing* Mavrik Viewer's Guide.

Use TiVo Online


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Good catch. Here's another oopsie on their website. The description for the Watch Epix page is wrong, accidentally confirming Roamio OTA cloud support.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> I think TiVo is selling the Roamio OTA with lifetime at a loss. It's like their loss leader to get their subscriber numbers up. It's not sustainable long term. I'm betting the Roamio OTA goes away once this thing is released.
> 
> Because of the way the Mavrik works, and because it's all cloud based*, they don't really need a 4 tuner unit. You can just buy two if you need 4 tuners. This makes it so they can keep the hardware cheap and focus on the subscription part instead.
> 
> * I have it on good authority that this will be primarily a cloud product and that local storage is being "considered" but is not guaranteed.


Perhaps they're planning not to have separate fees for service (unit activation and program guide) versus cloud storage for the Mavrik, which is why it may be cloud-only. If it's cloud-only, they won't even mention a subscription/service fee, they'll just make their money through recurring cloud storage fees, with different price levels depending on the amount of storage space you want to maintain. There won't be a lifetime option, only monthly plans (and maybe annual plans at a small discount). Once you stop paying the cloud storage fee, all your recordings go bye-bye, although you may be able continue using the Mavrik for live TV with trick play and a full program guide. (Now that TiVo and Rovi are one, they own the guide data, so it costs them virtually nothing to roll it out to hardware.)


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Good catch. Here's another oopsie on their website. The description for the Watch Epix page is wrong, accidentally confirming Roamio OTA cloud support.
> 
> View attachment 28363


So do you think my new Roamio OTA will offer cloud storage too? Epix isn't an ota antenna channel, so does this mean they're going to offer a streaming service like Vue or SlingTV?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BillyClyde said:


> So do you think my new Roamio OTA will offer cloud storage too? Epix isn't an ota antenna channel, so does this mean they're going to offer a streaming service like Vue or SlingTV?


The description text under the "Watch EPIX" heading is a mistake; it has nothing to do with EPIX at all, so it doesn't indicate anything about a potential new streaming service like Vue or Sling TV. But it does indicate that the Roamio OTA, along with the upcoming Mavrik, will be able to store OTA recordings in the cloud rather than on the local hard drive. I'm sure there will be an additional fee that Roamio OTA owners will have to pay for that cloud storage, though.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> Perhaps they're planning not to have separate fees for service (unit activation and program guide) versus cloud storage for the Mavrik, which is why it may be cloud-only. If it's cloud-only, they won't even mention a subscription/service fee, they'll just make their money through recurring cloud storage fees, with different price levels depending on the amount of storage space you want to maintain. There won't be a lifetime option, only monthly plans (and maybe annual plans at a small discount). Once you stop paying the cloud storage fee, all your recordings go bye-bye, although you may be able continue using the Mavrik for live TV with trick play and a full program guide. (Now that TiVo and Rovi are one, they own the guide data, so it costs them virtually nothing to roll it out to hardware.)


That's exactly what I expect they'll do. It'll just be one fee for storage and guide data all rolled into one with no option for offline storage.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> That's exactly what I expect they'll do. It'll just be one fee for storage and guide data all rolled into one with no option for offline storage.


Knowing the psychology of the cord-cutter market, I think it would be a smart move for TiVo to allow the Mavrik to serve up live TV (with the ability to pause/rewind) with full program guide to various streaming devices on the local network (Roku, Fire TV, Android, iOS, etc.) even if the user doesn't opt to pay for cloud storage, e.g. DVR functionality. That would essentially make it a competitor to Silicon Dust's network tuners (which don't require any ongoing fees for live TV). I don't think cord-cutters would balk so much at the idea of paying a reasonable fee for cloud storage (something that lots of companies already do) but having a piece of hardware that is completely useless without paying a recurring fee isn't going to be super-successful. (TiVo initially tried that with the Roamio OTA for $49 up front with a $15 monthly fee.)


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> If you really have to pay over $400 for a dual tuner Tablo with lifetime & 1Tb of add on storage then TiVo's current Roamio OTA even if you count buying a stand alone stream is already killing it on price.


I don't like Tablo's system since it's re-compresses the video, and the interface isn't as good, but if you have a bunch of TVs with streaming boxes, it's WAY cheaper than TiVo with TiVo Minis on every TV.



Dan203 said:


> I think TiVo is selling the Roamio OTA with lifetime at a loss.


At a loss? I doubt it. I'm not saying they're making a ton of money on it, but I can't believe it costs them that much to make that thing and provide it with data. The R&D costs were all sunk already on the Roamio, and they basically retired the line, so they are making some money on the OTA.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> That would be cool. If it was like an HDHomeRun for your current TiVo.


Agreed!

Ira voiced support for the idea back in the 2015 Quick Chat, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that the Mavrik would offer this functionality. 


Ira Bahr said:


> Interesting idea. We're looking at ways to expand the tuner count and will not degrade the experience for the customer. With that comes certain challenges but we are actively looking at it.
> 
> 
> krkaufman said:
> ...


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Mavrik


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Seems to just be a copy of online.tivo.com with a darker theme


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

davezatz said:


> Mavrik


TiVo DeathStar.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Dan203 said:


> I think TiVo is selling the Roamio OTA with lifetime at a loss. It's like their loss leader to get their subscriber numbers up. It's not sustainable long term. I'm betting the Roamio OTA goes away once this thing is released.
> 
> Because of the way the Mavrik works, and because it's all cloud based*, they don't really need a 4 tuner unit. You can just buy two if you need 4 tuners. This makes it so they can keep the hardware cheap and focus on the subscription part instead.
> 
> * I have it on good authority that this will be primarily a cloud product and that local storage is being "considered" but is not guaranteed.


Local storage takes away the monthly fees for renting cloud storage so I'm betting it will be cloud only to keep the revenue stream.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mschnebly said:


> Local storage takes away the monthly fees for renting cloud storage so I'm betting it will be cloud only to keep the revenue stream.


It will almost certainly require some level of cloud storage. The "maybe" I got was for the possibility of having local storage for offline viewing. Even if they allow ocal storage I suspect that you will not be able to use more local storage then the teir you pay for of cloud storage. So you wont be able to pay for the smallest tier of cloud storage and then attach a 3TB external drive locally. They'll have to match 1:1.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

If they make people do cloud, they massively limit the potential market. If they offer it as an option, they could only expand their potential market.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

All I can say is TiVo better put on one hell of a marketing campaign for this if half the stuff in this thread is true. No support for existing Tivos, no support for Minis, no or limited local storage, forced cloud storage. Who the heck is going to buy this? Certainly not traditional TiVo OTA DVR users. 

I sure hope almost everything that is being predicted is wrong. I certainly support it being an OTA DVR with a cloud storage option that can be used with third party streaming devices, but if that is all it is I have ZERO interest in it.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Seems to just be a copy of online.tivo.com with a darker theme


Yes but also probably more to it than that and in conjunction with tve.setuplab1.tivo.com/index.html, given it's a headless device - the web and/or app will provide the interface for management.



atmuscarella said:


> All I can say is TiVo better put on one hell of a marketing campaign for this if half the stuff in this thread is true. No support for existing Tivos, no support for Minis, no or limited local storage, forced cloud storage.


Well, the Mini stuff and the local storage situation are anyone's guess at this point. To your broader point, TiVo does indeed need good marketing which is something they've struggled with in recent years.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> All I can say is TiVo better put on one hell of a marketing campaign for this if half the stuff in this thread is true. No support for existing Tivos, no support for Minis, no or limited local storage, forced cloud storage. Who the heck is going to buy this? Certainly not traditional TiVo OTA DVR users.
> 
> I sure hope almost everything that is being predicted is wrong. I certainly support it being an OTA DVR with a cloud storage option that can be used with third party streaming devices, but if that is all it is I have ZERO interest in it.


1. If there is no local storage or no Lifetime option, then this thing is DOA. They also need to follow up with a 4-tuner version like Tablo, since most markets have all 6 main HD stations, it's easy to run out of tuners unless you have 4.

2. I don't think it needs to support the existing TiVo ecosystem. This is a device intended to compete with Tablo. However, it actually needs to compete with Tablo, not be some half-baked piece of junk.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

davezatz said:


> Yes but also probably more to it than that and in conjunction with tve.setuplab1.tivo.com/index.html, given it's a headless device - the web and/or app will provide the interface for management.


I was able to get into some of the setup screens. It looks like you'll be able to use that website to actually manage the settings for the whole device. I guess they need that since the device will be headless.

I wonder which platforms they'll support out of the gate? Seems like they would need a minimum AppleTV and Roku, maybe FireTV too.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

atmuscarella said:


> All I can say is TiVo better put on one hell of a marketing campaign for this if half the stuff in this thread is true. No support for existing Tivos, no support for Minis, no or limited local storage, forced cloud storage. Who the heck is going to buy this? Certainly not traditional TiVo OTA DVR users.
> 
> I sure hope almost everything that is being predicted is wrong. I certainly support it being an OTA DVR with a cloud storage option that can be used with third party streaming devices, but if that is all it is I have ZERO interest in it.


I think there will be support for existing TiVos because this is what I get when I click on the Mavrik link from Dave Zatz's post:































The third one shows a drop down list of all my TiVos and when I select my Roamio OTA I get what it shows in the fourth photo, saying I don't have a Mavrik to connect my OTA to.

This is all done through my iPhone so I'm not sure what happens when you use a PC. There's a lot of other things there when I click around too. If you hit the settings "cog wheel" it brings a bunch of Mavrik settings but of course I can do anything without one.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It does work with other TiVos, just not Minis. Using my Mom's account, which doesn't have any Minis, I'm able to navigate most of the pages.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

Dan203 said:


> It does work with other TiVos, just not Minis. Using my Mom's account, which doesn't have any Minis, I'm able to navigate most of the pages.
> 
> View attachment 28412


Yes thank you Dan203. I tried it with my Roamio OTA. That picture I posted has my guest room mini, but it's just that's what popped up first in the list. I clicked it and selected my OTA.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

On my account a Min is selected by default and if I try to change the device I get the error you posted. Was only able to get past the error using my Mom's account that doesn't have any Minis so her Premiere is selected first instead.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

Interesting. Thank you.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> On my account a Min is selected by default and if I try to change the device I get the error you posted. Was only able to get past the error using my Mom's account that doesn't have any Minis so her Premiere is selected first instead.


Perhaps it is using the same ASCII sort that TiVo online.com uses. I renamed my Mini and Premiere units with lower case so that the Roamio would be at the top of the list.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

JoeKustra said:


> Perhaps it is using the same ASCII sort that TiVo online.com uses. I renamed my Mini and Premiere units with lower case so that the Roamio would be at the top of the list.


Yeah I think that's the case, but when you change the names it doesn't filter over to that site immediately so you have to wait a day or two for it to update.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah I think that's the case, but when you change the names it doesn't filter over to that site immediately so you have to wait a day or two for it to update.


Did I mention that the name shown in "Name this TiVo" may not agree with System Information? Seems there is a bug somewhere.


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## Scooter Scott (Jun 1, 2015)

I returned my tablo to wait and see what this ends up being.


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