# TiVo Loses 163,000 Subscribers In October 08 Quarter



## TampaDon (Apr 26, 2004)

Hi.

Interesting article...

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/11/25/tivo-loses-163000-subscribers-in-october-08-quarter/8737

Don in Arizona


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I wonder how much of that is due to DirecTV users basically being forced to abandon their TiVos due to the new MPEG4 channels? I'd bet it's a big percentage. Unfortunately DirecTV users made up a big chunk of TiVo users, and when NDS bought DirecTV and squeezed TiVo out they cut off a huge customer base. Hopefully, now that DirecTV is owned by another company and repartnered with TiVo, subscribers will start to grow again. (at least once they finally release that new DirecTiVo box)

Dan


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## ncsercs (May 5, 2001)

I hope it's soon because the software in their DVR's are absolute junk.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Dan203 said:


> I wonder how much of that is due to DirecTV users basically being forced to abandon their TiVos due to the new MPEG4 channels? I'd bet it's a big percentage.


TiVo had a net loss of 28,000 owned subscriptions and 135,000 MSO (almost all DirecTV) subscriptions.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

So about 80&#37; of the loss was DirecTV. Like I said those numbers should level off once this new DirecTiVo hits the streets.

Dan


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

The DirectTivo losses one can dismiss, but isn't it more disturbing that TiVo had a net *loss *of 28,000 owned subscribers?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> but isn't it more disturbing that TiVo had a net loss of 28,000 owned subscribers?


I would think so - except I think when they say net subscriptions they are talking about actual number of units (TiVos) with a subscription, not the actual number of individual subscribers/households. There maybe some loss due to people replacing multiple single tuner units with one dual tuner unit.

Thanks,


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think it's probably because people are moving from SD to HD and opting for cable DVRs instead of paying $200+ out of pocket for a TiVo HD. (plus the hassle of getting CableCARDs installed) The economy going down the tubes and TiVo raising their monthly subscription prices probably didn't help either.

TiVo is in a tough spot. They're competing with cable companies who can subsidize the cost of a DVR by simply hiding the cost in the programming bill. TiVo's true cost is right out there in the open for people to see because they have no where to hide it. To be honest I think the future of TiVo is going to be deals with providers like DirecTV, Comcast and Cox. Standalone units are going to end up being a niche product for enthusiast who want to own instead of rent.

Dan


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/41...-profit-on-echostar-suit-q4-loss-expected-to/

_TiVos $105 million in damages from EchoStar (NSDQ: SATS) after a lengthy court battle get the credit for the DVR company swinging to a profit in Q3, with $100.6 million ($0.98 per share) versus last years $8.3 million loss. Without the EchoStar compensation, though, TiVo would have just narrowed its loss in Q3 to $900,000and the company warned investors that its Q4 net loss will likely widen to a range between $10- to $12 million. By comparison, TiVo (NSDQ: TIVO) lost $6.4 million in Q407.

While revenues were down 14.7 percent to 64.4 million, TiVo beat the Thomson Reuters analyst poll estimates of $50.7 million in revs and a loss of $0.6 per share (via AP)._


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I'd say a lot of things caused it. All of the above, 1 year free subs expiring under the upgrade deal a year ago, and the ECONOMY.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

ncsercs said:


> I hope it's soon because the software in their DVR's are absolute junk.


I'm pretty happy with DTV software - when I use my TIVO, the TIVO interface seems so last century


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo is in a tough spot. They're competing with cable companies who can subsidize the cost of a DVR by simply hiding the cost in the programming bill.


I think this is true. TiVo knows it and they've been trying to cut costs and make their stand-alone business sustainable until their strategies for cable/sat distribution and broadband content can take off.

TiVo is also bracing for a rough fourth quarter. The economy will eliminate luxuries like TiVo from many people's budgets. Best Buy, their top retailer, predicts CE sales down 15% and Circuit City, their number two retailer, is in bankruptcy. This will likely mean another big bleed of subscribers through the end of the year.

The good news is that they've got no debt and $200 million in cash to help them weather this.


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## Lazlo123 (Nov 7, 2006)

They've also got nothing to worry about because they're all but guaranteed a bailout from the government, right? Right?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I love Tivo and I dont think anything is going to happen soon but it's tough to see how they are viable long term. 

They hardly ever made money.

They are bleeding now. 

the comcast and cox deals have amounted to jack sprat so far after years of work.

The new directivo has to be some time away. 

even assuming the new directivo and comcast and cox deals all start to get loads of subs- tivo really never made much money when directv had piles and piles of tivo customers becasue they only make a buck a box or so. 

Maybe the ads and the downloads all start adding to the bottom line but for now tivo hasn't made anything big enough in ads that they are willing to say out loud how much it is. And if netflix is charging just 9 bucks a month for the download plan, how much of that (IF ANYTHING) are they sharing with tivo?


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

The New DirecTV deal should significantly improve TiVo's revenue based on the release stating the deal is significantly higher than the previous one.

As far as Comcast goes...well..when have they done anything fast and reliable? 

With $200+ million in cash, TiVo can afford to sit tight and let all these 3rd party groups fight over their brand name. 

The question will be: will one of these MSOs ever open up to the full TiVo suite of offerings, and allow a DTV (or Comcast) user access to the Netflix Streaming or Amazon On Demand?

PS: Don't forget...the Stand-Alone sub losses are in part due to the write-off of lifetime subs. My guess is real churn is much lower than what they have to put on the books.


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## TiVo Steve (Nov 8, 2005)

They just need to find somebody else to sue!


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## lofar (Mar 21, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo is in a tough spot. They're competing with cable companies who can subsidize the cost of a DVR by simply hiding the cost in the programming bill. TiVo's true cost is right out there in the open for people to see because they have no where to hide it. To be honest I think the future of TiVo is going to be deals with providers like DirecTV, Comcast and Cox. Standalone units are going to end up being a niche product for enthusiast who want to own instead of rent.
> 
> Dan


Yes and no, as a recent convert from cable DVR's I can say that the cable DVR's were indeed more expensive. The total cost was about $10-15 more. However, I think that only applies to households that have two DVR's because the cable companies get to charge double fees and don't give any discount. I paid something like $5.95/mo for each box/connection and then an additional $12/mo for the actual DVR service of which I had to pay twice. Plus taxes, fees, franchise fees etc. It was $40-45 a month extra on my bill for two cable DVR's. The cost margin between the two would be considerably lower with only one DVR in a household.

Tivo is a straight up $12.95 and $9.95 with no taxes or extra fees. Admittedly it took me a long time to jump into the tivo mainly because of the high up front costs and because i was scared of the possibly of cable card problems as well as general quality problems with the HD models.


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## Mamoth (Jun 21, 2004)

lofar said:


> Tivo is a straight up $12.95 and $9.95 with no taxes or extra fees.


Not everywhere. I get nailed for tax now. So do folks in TX and such.


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

lofar said:


> Yes and no, as a recent convert from cable DVR's I can say that the cable DVR's were indeed more expensive. The total cost was about $10-15 more. However, I think that only applies to households that have two DVR's because the cable companies get to charge double fees and don't give any discount.


It must vary with specific cable rates and number of DVRs in the house.

For me, I don't like paying both for hardware and subscription service. I'll pay for one, but I will avoid you twice for the same thing. So I didn't get a Tivo until last year, when the Dual Tuner models were free. And now I gladly pay the monthly sub, since the hardware didn't cost anything.

But as I look to a possible switch to HD next year, it's a tough choice. I need a $60/mo cable sub to start. The cable DVR is $10/mo. Or, I can buy a $600 HD Tivo, $6/mo in cable cards, and $10/mo for Tivo subscription.

Over 3 years, it's $70/mo with the cable company versus $93/mo with Tivo. Going Tivo increases my monthly bill by 33%! That's quite a lot. This is a tough sell in the best of times; these days it may seem "let them eat cake" extravagant to even Tivo owners.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

janry said:


> I'd say a lot of things caused it. All of the above, 1 year free subs expiring under the upgrade deal a year ago, and the ECONOMY.


I've reduced the number of TiVo boxes I operate as the MSD benefit has been eroded and the cost of ownership has grown. I think that kind of attrition also has an effect here.


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## Joey Bagadonuts (Mar 13, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I think it's probably because people are moving from SD to HD and opting for cable DVRs instead of paying $200+ out of pocket for a TiVo HD. (plus the hassle of getting CableCARDs installed)
> Dan


These are the two exact reasons (more the latter than the former) that keeps us from dumping our TWC DVR for an HD TiVo . We own three S2's but do most of our TV watching in the living room via a 50" Panasonic Plasma HD TV. After reading all of the horror stories about cable card installs and Time Warner, we decided to just go with a TWC DVR. Also, the fact that TiVo is gearing all or at least most of their updates toward their HD boxes doesn't sit well with me.


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## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

Tivo should get their boxes on Walmart shelves. In the brick and mortar stores. More eyes on their product. Couldn't hurt. I for one in this economy stopped walking into high end stores like Best Buy (high end to me). Not even to window shop because I know I can't afford anything I want there. Why torture myself.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'm a big tivo fan- and genrally never got worried about their finances- but it's starting to make me ponder....



kmill14 said:


> The New DirecTV deal should significantly improve TiVo's revenue based on the release stating the deal is significantly higher than the previous one.
> ...


assuming it's more per box- I also assume it's an extra fee add on- just like comcast. So although tivo might now get $2 a box, how many more subs will they get when the user has to pay $5 more to get it? Certainly it wont be the same amount as in the day's when they were the only directv choice. Assuming that it's twice the rate per box tivo would have to get more then 50% of the directv subs to upgrade to the pay more for tivo.

Maybe I'm wrong and tivo will be a free option?
Even then and assuming almost everyone takes it- is $2/box/month really enough to keep them in business? Would tivo have been vastly better off in the years when they were the only Directv box and they had millions of subs - if they got 2 bucks instead of 1? (not rhetorical questions- curious what the answer is since i dont pay attention much to their finances)



kmill14 said:


> ...
> As far as Comcast goes...well..when have they done anything fast and reliable?
> 
> ...


so what? Those are the people that Tivo needs to deal with. And the scary thing is Comcast might even be the best of the big cable companies to deal with. Have fun with the dolan's and cablevision. See what time warner does. it aint pretty.

But again it goes down to how many more people are going to "upgrade" their dvr's if it costs? I dont think it's huge. If it was a big percentage then Tivo would be all bragging about how the take rate in Boston (or wherever the test markets are) is so big. (and comcast would be all proud too as it would increase their ARPU which is their business model as DBS continues to steal subs)



kmill14 said:


> ...
> 
> With $200+ million in cash, TiVo can afford to sit tight and let all these 3rd party groups fight over their brand name.
> ...


Agreed- they have 200 to slowly bleed through. That's why I dont think anything bad will happen soon. But they never make money really so over time unless they keep winning big lawsuits that money is going to dwindle. They just can't seem to make a profit on their operations. And I'm not sure what the long term prospects are for us if they become just some intellectual property owner.



kmill14 said:


> ...
> 
> The question will be: will one of these MSOs ever open up to the full TiVo suite of offerings, and allow a DTV (or Comcast) user access to the Netflix Streaming or Amazon On Demand?
> 
> ...


likely to never happen- apparently if you read more recent FCC stuff the cable people are even against letting a tivo "series 4" ocap/true2way box access those 3rd party providers. So there's zero chance they allow it on boxes they deploy.

And even if it did- what would it matter? Would that many more people pay extra each month for tivo becuase they could get netflix streaming on it? And then would the pennies that amazon or netflix give tivo really add up to anything?



kmill14 said:


> ...
> 
> PS: Don't forget...the Stand-Alone sub losses are in part due to the write-off of lifetime subs. My guess is real churn is much lower than what they have to put on the books.


Totally agreed- I think they usually discuss in the conference call how many lifetimes are being written off the books- so maybe we can figure the real numbers? But still their churn has been going up over the years. They certainly aren't experiencing exponential growth where every year they sell 25% more then the year before or anything. So things aren't really changing- at best it's status quo, at worse they are going backwards.

Unfortunately they seem to be in a business model that they need to have a huge installed base and make pennies a month in profit off each. But they just dont have that huge base and doesn't seem at this point like they can get their anytime at all.

Things can change and I hope they do, but really I'm beginning to get concerned that it can't last forever.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Malcontent said:


> Tivo should get their boxes on Walmart shelves. In the brick and mortar stores. More eyes on their product. Couldn't hurt. I for one in this economy stopped walking into high end stores like Best Buy (high end to me). Not even to window shop because I know I can't afford anything I want there. Why torture myself.


they used to be in walmarts and the like- didn't make much difference.


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## quarkman97 (Nov 18, 2002)

Count me in as one of the lost subscribers. I switched to DirecTV in September and canceled both my Tivo subs and sold my hardware.

My Milwaukee Time Warner went SDV and with them dragging their feet with the tuning adapter and who know well it will work, I jumped ship.

Is DirecTV's DVR and UI far inferior to Tivo? Yep!

Will I get the new DirecTivo when it comes out next summer? You bet!

With that being said, it's hard to recommend Tivo HD to friends instead of the cable company or DirecTV's DVR.

I had to explain to a co-worker that she has to drop $200+ on the box and pay a monthly subscription to Tivo. Then have the cable company come out and install cable cards. And finally, wait for the tuning adapter to be released in your area.

Or just bring home a cable company DVR and plug it in. Yeah it's not as good, but the setup hassle vs. benefit of the Tivo HD for non-tech geeks like us is the deal breaker for the average consumer. Tivo already has the problem that most people still don't know how much better it is vs. the generic HD DVR. And now, with a more complicated setup process, I fear they they are driving more people away from the brand.

I love Tivo, but they/we will always have to jump through the cable company's hoops to get what we want. And with so much competition, I see people taking the easy route and getting/switching to a simpler DVR setup instead of the many steps to setup a Tivo HD.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

ShoutingMan said:


> Over 3 years, it's $70/mo with the cable company versus $93/mo with Tivo. Going Tivo increases my monthly bill by 33%! That's quite a lot. This is a tough sell in the best of times; these days it may seem "let them eat cake" extravagant to even Tivo owners.


You either want TiVo or you don't. If you want it you have to pay for the cost of the service. If TiVo's features are not important to you, then there is no reason to have it. I have a TWC DVR because it is included in the package I subscribe to. I hate it. The only time I use the TWC DVR is when I am updating the software on my TiVo and can't use it for 30 minutes.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ShoutingMan said:


> ...I can buy a $600 HD Tivo....


What? What?! Where to you get that?

This is what TiVo's Web site lists the MSRP for the HD box.

I suppose if you WANT to pay $600, you can. I just don't know anyone who's charging that much for the HD TiVo...


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

Bierboy said:


> What? What?! Where to you get that?


From Tivo and BestBuy. You got a source for cheaper Tivos?



Kablemodem said:


> You either want TiVo or you don't. If you want it you have to pay for the cost of the service. If TiVo's features are not important to you, then there is no reason to have it.


Obviously. The thread is about why Tivo has lost 163,000 subscriptions. It seems people are moving to the "...or you don't" side of your tautology. And one reason, in my estimation, is because of the high cost of switching to HD. If we switch to HD next year, I'm not sure which way I'll go. Tivo's great; 33% price premium is not.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

ShoutingMan said:


> From Tivo and BestBuy. You got a source for cheaper Tivos?


http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD652160-Digital-Video-Recorder/dp/B000RZDBM2

http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD658000-HD-XL-DVR/dp/B001EWEIOW

If you buy the regular TiVo HD for $245 you can add an additional 500GB of space by buying one of these for $125...

http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-WDG1S5000VN-500GB-Expander/dp/B0018O77Q2

and get a TiVo with 660GB, or about 100 hours of HD capacity, for $370. And if you're really adverse to paying for a subscription you can always get lifetime for $399. (it pays for itself in ~30 months, and holds a nearly 1:1 resale value on eBay)

Dan


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ShoutingMan said:


> From Tivo and BestBuy. You got a source for cheaper Tivos?


That's a TiVo HD XL with 150 hours of HD capacity compared to a typical cable company DVR with 20 hours or less. We're talking apples and bowling balls here.


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## Hew (Apr 18, 2004)

kmill14 said:


> The New DirecTV deal should significantly improve TiVo's revenue based on the release stating the deal is significantly higher than the previous one.
> 
> As far as Comcast goes...well..when have they done anything fast and reliable?
> 
> With $200+ million in cash, TiVo can afford to sit tight and let all these 3rd party groups fight over their brand name.


The CEO of TiVo said that he would rely more on the MSO's for marketing their boxes. With Comcast already launching a TiVo commercial, along with DirecTV's TV ads, there could be a big increase of all around marketing for TiVo software with TiVo not spending a cent on it. Since 3 of the top 5 Cable and Sat companies currently have deals for TiVo(Dish being the possible 4th out of 5) there could be competition as to who offers the most tivo features. This could hopefully make 100% of Tivo's software to be integrated into MSO's hardware.

Once Directv/TiVo relaunches, Sales will quickly surge since alot of ex DirecTivo users would want to go back to tivo.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Actually, you might think the opposite would be true, if others would think about how much content is really costing them.

I would think that it would be cheaper to go with a stand alone Tivo and OTA HD and then supplement with Netflix, Amazon, and Jaman.... then it would be to stay with Directv , Dish, Comcast or any other provider.



nrc said:


> TiVo is also bracing for a rough fourth quarter. The economy will eliminate luxuries like TiVo from many people's budgets. Best Buy, their top retailer, predicts CE sales down 15% and Circuit City, their number two retailer, is in bankruptcy. This will likely mean another big bleed of subscribers through the end of the year.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

ShoutingMan said:


> For me, I don't like paying both for hardware and subscription service.


So then get lifetime service.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

magnus said:


> Actually, you might think the opposite would be true, if others would think about how much content is really costing them.
> 
> I would think that it would be cheaper to go with a stand alone Tivo and OTA HD and then supplement with Netflix, Amazon, and Jaman.... then it would be to stay with Directv , Dish, Comcast or any other provider.


I think TiVo sees that as a future market - kill your cable company and use OTA and broadband content. It's just not mature enough to be a big driver yet. They do mention that they see some hope that the economy will drive video rentals as people choose to stay home for their entertainment.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

nrc said:


> I think TiVo sees that as a future market - kill your cable company and use OTA and broadband content. It's just not mature enough to be a big driver yet. They do mention that they see some hope that the economy will drive video rentals as people choose to stay home for their entertainment.


The real DVD from Netflex has the full THX digital sound, (if the movie was made with THX sound) the streaming to TiVo is just stereo for now, for people with good 5.1 or 7.1 audio systems the real DVD is much better + you get the extras that are part of some DVDs, some people get excited with the THX TiVo, when I don't know where or when any TiVo might get THX sound source as the cable co may compress the full Digital sound from any HBO movie, and I know on no cable channel including the networks that even mentions that they broadcast THX sound with their programing. All Series 3 models (3 of them so far) of TiVo record the audio in digital format and using the optical output you will get out what was put in without any denigration


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

Jebberwocky! said:


> I'm pretty happy with DTV software


:up:


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## Hew (Apr 18, 2004)

nrc said:


> They do mention that they see some hope that the economy will drive video rentals as people choose to stay home for their entertainment.


Does anyone know how much money Tivo gets from broadband movie downloads? Or, how many movies got downloaded in the past quarter?


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

mattack said:


> So then get lifetime service.


 I'm still paying for the subscription, just all up front.



nrc said:


> That's a TiVo HD XL with 150 hours of HD capacity compared to a typical cable company DVR with 20 hours or less. We're talking apples and bowling balls here.


That's a good point, but there's no exact comparison possible. I checked and TWC's DVR is supposed to hold 35 hrs of HD programming. Tivo's base model only holds 20 hrs, which is too little. I consider 40 the right amount. The TWC DVR is close enough, but with Tivo I'd have to go with the XL.



Dan203 said:


> and get a TiVo with 660GB, or about 100 hours of HD capacity, for $370. And if you're really adverse to paying for a subscription you can always get lifetime for $399. (it pays for itself in ~30 months, and holds a nearly 1:1 resale value on eBay)


The XL is $515 from Amazon, not $599. Not exactly a boorbuster savings. My cost premium decreases from $23/mo to $20.50/mo. Stlll nearly a 30% premium.

Yes, I could buy from one place, and then get a hard drive from another, and then read the FAQs and make it work myself, and then get the lifetime sub. Then call the cable company, get them to put in the two cable cards (assuming it works flawlessly), and then sell the Tivo on eBay in 3 years and make it all a financial wash.

Or I can pay $10/mo to TWC for a DVR.

Again, this goes to the heart of why Tivo is struggling to keep customers. An HD Tivo is very expensive and/or rather complex. I may stick with the HD Tivo next year, regardless of price, but it's easy to see why people won't pay such a premium.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Or you could ditch cable/satellite all together.

Then get a Tivo HD w/ lifetime (maybe even think about a used one). If you spent $500 total on this then it would pay for itself within a half year.

$80 per month for Directv * 12 months = $960 per year

Then after a bit of time you could buy a new drive 1TB and upgrade the Tivo HD using instantcake.... it's very easy (but downside is this method would not save recordings).

You would be surprised about how little you actually miss the content, especially with the changes that Tivo has made to get Amazon, Jaman and Netflix on board.



ShoutingMan said:


> Or I can pay $10/mo to TWC for a DVR.
> 
> Again, this goes to the heart of why Tivo is struggling to keep customers. An HD Tivo is very expensive and/or rather complex. I may stick with the HD Tivo next year, regardless of price, but it's easy to see why people won't pay such a premium.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Hew said:


> ... This could hopefully make 100% of Tivo's software to be integrated into MSO's hardware.
> 
> ....


"hopefully"????

If you mean that there wont be stand alone boxes we can buy ourselves then i think that's the worng word for sure.

that would be the worst possible thing- the MSO and DBS all censor what tivo offers- leaving out many of the features that differentiate the boxes from the generic swill.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Hew said:


> ...
> 
> Once Directv/TiVo relaunches, Sales will quickly surge since alot of ex DirecTivo users would want to go back to tivo.


and again- assuming every ex-directivo user goes back- what does that mean? They didn't make a profit when we were all there the first time.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

lessd said:


> The real DVD from Netflex has the full THX digital sound, (if the movie was made with THX sound) the streaming to TiVo is just stereo for now, for people with good 5.1 or 7.1 audio systems the real DVD is much better + you get the extras that are part of some DVDs, some people get excited with the THX TiVo, when I don't know where or when any TiVo might get THX sound source as the cable co may compress the full Digital sound from any HBO movie, and I know on no cable channel including the networks that even mentions that they broadcast THX sound with their programing. All Series 3 models (3 of them so far) of TiVo record the audio in digital format and using the optical output you will get out what was put in without any denigration


not that i think netflix is tivo's savior but..

Quick question-

Do you not find I love lucy to be funny even though its mono and in black and white 4:3 SD?

Some really care about quality but for the masses I dont think its such an issue. Convenience and the content itself I think trump those concerns. If that werent the case people would be made at hd-lite 2 HDs on a QAM and all the other things that go on. I just stayed at a brand new resort that advertised HDTVs in every suite. Sure they had HDTV but not a single HD channel. They just set the tvs to stretch it all and Im sure 90+% of the guests didnt notice or at least didnt care.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ShoutingMan said:


> I'm still paying for the subscription, just all up front.
> 
> That's a good point, but there's no exact comparison possible. I checked and TWC's DVR is supposed to hold 35 hrs of HD programming. Tivo's base model only holds 20 hrs, which is too little. I consider 40 the right amount. The TWC DVR is close enough, but with Tivo I'd have to go with the XL.
> 
> ...


you're really bent on making the tivo sound as expensive as possible huh? 

There's no need to exaggerate the total purchase price to buy a tivo and say it's 600 for the hardware. Your other points are very valid. It's just easier AND cheaper to go with cable- plan and simple. And that doesn't change if the tivo can be had for 200 or your mythical 600.

Tivo as it is now is for people that want tivo. It's not for people looking for the easiet to set up and cheapest.


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

MichaelK said:


> you're really bent on making the tivo sound as expensive as possible huh?
> 
> There's no need to exaggerate the total purchase price to buy a tivo and say it's 600 for the hardware. ...


I'm not bent on anything: I'm using the real prices that I would pay if I go to an HD Tivo. I've got quotes from my local TWC; talked to them Tuesday. I'm looking at the prices I'd pay if I buy a Tivo from a major retailer, including Tivo.com

You're right, I could drop the price discrepancy from $23 to $15/mo with the $299 Tivo HD, a less exhorbitant 15% premium. But then I have half the storage of the cable DVR, and wouldn't that be, as was said earlier, "comparing apples to bowling balls"?

I don't understand the contortions to try and escape the real pricing. Suggesting buying a lifetime sub is like having no subscription to pay? Suggesting home hacking the Tivo to add space cheaper. Suggesting bothering with selling stuff on eBay to defray costs?



> Tivo as it is now is for people that want tivo. It's not for people looking for the easiet to set up and cheapest


And that's exactly the problem this thread is about: Another 160k people decided that Tivo is not for them.



magnus said:


> Or you could ditch cable/satellite all together.


I get no OTA reception. Currently I have "lifeline" cable at $10/mo for the local networks. An HD Tivo with OTA HD would be great, but I don't think I could receive the HD signals.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Do you have an HDTV? If you do you might try it out. You might be surprised.... even with a little reception with a pair of rabbit ears... you might be able to buy a better antenna and get all the channels in clear reception.

I live about 15 miles from all the towers in the Dallas area and use an antenna in the attic. The picture is perfect but the picture from a pair of rabbit ears was a bit digitized on some of the channels.



ShoutingMan said:


> I get no OTA reception. Currently I have "lifeline" cable at $10/mo for the local networks. An HD Tivo with OTA HD would be great, but I don't think I could receive the HD signals.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

It's really just a problem with people not using dollars and cents (sense) to make decisions.



ShoutingMan said:


> And that's exactly the problem this thread is about: Another 160k people decided that Tivo is not for them.


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

For every Ying there's a Yang.
I paid $179 for a refurb HD Tivo plus $299 for the lifetime after I changed it from a monthly subscription and I spent another $109 for a 1 TB Hitachi drive to extend my recording space to 144 HD hours. So total outlay about $600.

I pay Charter cable an additional $4 a month for two S cable cards. I DON'T pay them $5 a month for an HD receiver and I DON'T pay them another $14.95 a month to add DVR functionality with 20-30 hours recording space on top of that.

So I save about $16 + taxes a month using a Tivo. So, in about 3 years I'll break even and in the meantime I have a lot more functionality and capacity than if I rented and I own it in the end.

Granted most people aren't going to crack the case and swap out a hard drive, but that's what the My DVR Expanders are for. Bottom line is that I don't see cost as an issue unless you can't afford the upfront costs.


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

magnus said:


> Do you have an HDTV? If you do you might try it out. You might be surprised.... even with a little reception with a pair of rabbit ears... you might be able to buy a better antenna and get all the channels in clear reception.


I have an early HDTV without a digital tuner. But I have lousy analog reception (hence the lifeline cable), so I'd expect equally bad for digital. A new HDTV is a possible upgrade next year (new home electronics or deck... tough choice ) I didn't bother with the subsidized digital converter box; I didn't want to pay $20+ for something I wouldn't use.

Donnoh - interesting counter-example


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

ShoutingMan said:


> But I have lousy analog reception (hence the lifeline cable), so I'd expect equally bad for digital.


I recently hooked up a coupon converter box for my parents. Before hooking it up some stations had really poor snowy reception, others were fine. After hooking it up they marveled at the wonderful picture on all channels on that old television, saying they didn't believe it could look that good. They were thinking of replacing it, but now plan to keep it and save their money.

Give it a try, you might be pleasantly surprised.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Don't forget that $40 off coupons for converter boxes are available from the government and can be applied for here.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Yep, the analog in my area sucked as well. And I went ahead and tried the converter box and rabbit ears. And before anyone says it... yes the picture is a lot better but it's a LOT better with a box that does not convert back to analog. So, a Tivo or an HDTV will have a LOT better picture than the converter boxes.



ShoutingMan said:


> I have an early HDTV without a digital tuner. But I have lousy analog reception (hence the lifeline cable), so I'd expect equally bad for digital. A new HDTV is a possible upgrade next year (new home electronics or deck... tough choice ) I didn't bother with the subsidized digital converter box; I didn't want to pay $20+ for something I wouldn't use.
> 
> Donnoh - interesting counter-example


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## Hew (Apr 18, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> and again- assuming every ex-directivo user goes back- what does that mean? They didn't make a profit when we were all there the first time.


The CEO did say that the DirecTV deal was significantly higher then what it use to be(from conference call transcript). In addition to that, directv will do most if not all of the advertising for TiVo. This means that TiVo will have high profit margin from the DirecTiVo subscribers.

TiVo is just about at break even now for the year if you don't count the Echostar payout. The new deal with DirecTV which gives tivo significantly more revenues per box then the previous deal will have a major impact on the bottom line. So it's safe to say that TiVo will be earning profits if most of the former DirecTivo subs come back.


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## Hew (Apr 18, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> "hopefully"????
> 
> If you mean that there wont be stand alone boxes we can buy ourselves then i think that's the worng word for sure.
> 
> that would be the worst possible thing- the MSO and DBS all censor what tivo offers- leaving out many of the features that differentiate the boxes from the generic swill.


That's not what I meant. Hopefully the MSO's will offer a Full TiVo software upgrade. No censoring of any features. I know that this is very unlikely, thats why I said hopefully. But if lets say the top 4 out of 5 companies offer TiVo services, the only way that each company can differentiate is by adding more and more TiVo features to their subs. This can lead to MSO's offering a full TiVo software box.

Don't forget that TiVo wants to be a pure software company that loads its software onto MSO's boxes. They are losing money for every box that they sell.


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> I think it's probably because people are moving from SD to HD and opting for cable DVRs instead of paying $200+ out of pocket for a TiVo HD. (plus the hassle of getting CableCARDs installed)


Or a digital system not compatible - like ATT UVerse.

That is what happened to my Sister-In-Law. She had two SA TiVos (1 S1, 1 S2) and Comcast went all digital. She switched to ATT UVerse since it was cheaper counting cable DVR .


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

CuriousMark said:


> I recently hooked up a coupon converter box for my parents. Before hooking it up some stations had really poor snowy reception, others were fine. After hooking it up they marveled at the wonderful picture on all channels on that old television, saying they didn't believe it could look that good. They were thinking of replacing it, but now plan to keep it and save their money.
> 
> Give it a try, you might be pleasantly surprised.


That's an encouraging note  When we upgrade to a new TV, we'll test out reception. Ideally, we'd get OTA HD and could use a Tivo HD without needing cable.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> they used to be in walmarts and the like- didn't make much difference.


don't think they were ever in walmart. they are in best buy and circuit city and some other stores like that.

This seems to me like the 8th annual TiVo is dying thread and like the others is trying so hard to analyze with so little actual info.

they actually beat analysts (you know the guys who get to gather all the real info and make some actual determinatiuons based on the actual info) expectations

PS -TiVo lost 28,000 actual subs - that includes lifetimes that go over 4 years old.
the other 135,000 had going to something else determined for them by DirectTV


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> don't think they were ever in walmart. they are in best buy and circuit city and some other stores like that.


MichaelK has to be referring back to when Wal-Mart and K-Mart had the Philips Series 1 units....

Scott


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HerronScott said:


> MichaelK has to be referring back to when Wal-Mart and K-Mart had the Philips Series 1 units....
> 
> Scott


ah ok, that was a while back. Walmart is known to be very demanding of vendors, perhaps TiVo decided it was not worth trying to keep them on the Walmart shelf. Walmart does not seem the place to try and sell a stand alone HD DVR anyway. TiVo is in that gray area between walmart and focused Home Theater stores and missed the boat last year on a under 500$ retail HD DVR in the best buy stores. now this year the economy is sinking sales. Good thing TiVo has that nice pile of cash to see them through


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the other 135,000 had going to something else determined for them by DirectTV


I jumped from DirecTV to Verizon FIOS. Better picture quality and no more weather interruptions. I'd imagine this was a 'win' for Tivo since they get the sub money directly instead of through DirecTV.


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## ROB-USA (Feb 1, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> I would think so - except I think when they say net subscriptions they are talking about actual number of units (TiVos) with a subscription, not the actual number of individual subscribers/households. There maybe some loss due to people replacing multiple single tuner units with one dual tuner unit.
> 
> Thanks,


I noticed in your bio line you have the Panny 800U Plasma. We'll be getting ours delivered shortly....will be dropping Dtv and switching to Comcast and purchasing the TiVo HDXL. Comcast in my area is offering existing Dtv users a superior deal. I really like Dtv, but I like TiVo better, so Dtv is losing out (for now).... The off topic part is, how are you liking your Pannny and TiVo HD? Thanks in advance.


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## hahathatsfunny (Jul 29, 2008)

nrc said:


> I think this is true. TiVo knows it and they've been trying to cut costs and make their stand-alone business sustainable until their strategies for cable/sat distribution and broadband content can take off.
> 
> TiVo is also bracing for a rough fourth quarter. The economy will eliminate luxuries like TiVo from many people's budgets. Best Buy, their top retailer, predicts CE sales down 15% and Circuit City, their number two retailer, is in bankruptcy. This will likely mean another big bleed of subscribers through the end of the year.
> 
> The good news is that they've got no debt and $200 million in cash to help them weather this.


As for expanding in retail outlets, TiVo should get their units sold on staples.com. While TiVo now has inked a deal with walmart.com, Costco stores, in addition to Best Buy and Sears, I think getting teamed with Staples, esp. Staples online, would be a good inroad for other reasons.

Staples just recently started carry Apple Ipods - and a lot of them are already sold out. Staples has a great reward system, has the office market, and is making inroads into popular accessories not office related. I buy a ton of office related items, with my customer #, get re-imbursed from my company, but accrue the reward points - which can be used for any of the fun stuff Staples has.

In with Staples could help offset the loss of Circuit City, if that chain goes under. I mean in the end, what good is it to be in on a store shelf in a big box store, with the store salesmen knowing little about it, when the smart consumer will likely be looking for the best deal, and can order directly from TiVo cheaper or by some other means. I just placed an order for a TiVO HD directly from Tivo as they were giving a discount as they were able to look up my account. But I just got my $60 reward check from Staples, and will probably use it for a GPS.


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## hahathatsfunny (Jul 29, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ah ok, that was a while back. Walmart is known to be very demanding of vendors, perhaps TiVo decided it was not worth trying to keep them on the Walmart shelf. Walmart does not seem the place to try and sell a stand alone HD DVR anyway. TiVo is in that gray area between walmart and focused Home Theater stores and missed the boat last year on a under 500$ retail HD DVR in the best buy stores. now this year the economy is sinking sales. Good thing TiVo has that nice pile of cash to see them through


I don't think its a great idea being at Wal-Mart, Kmart or Target, since TiVo is probably too high end for the mass number of Wal-Mart, Kmart and Target stores where more than half are ppl are buying low end items majority of the time. However, the online stores make a lot of sense.

I looked at Target and Wal-Mart, and Target.com was charging a shipping cost that outweighed the benefit of buying from there. For the TiVo HD, Wal-Mart didn't have Site to Store, though Wal-Mart was price competitive for the unit. Sears surprisingly did and one day they had a 10% off all electronics deal going on. In the end, I bought it straight from TiVo and got a better deal ($199 for a TiVo HD, not refurb), but I will have to pay for lifetime service.

In my situation, I like the benefits of TiVo To Go, transferring shows between units and the multi-service discoun over DVR service from Comcast. In my area, Verizon Fios now competes with Comcast, so a lot of the Comcast bundled packages are discounted, and the 1 year promotional pricing "rolls over, if you call in when its to expire" - according to a Comcast customer service rep, which is only happening because Fios is now competing. Of course, Comcast won't advertise or lower rates, but they can bundled it, make it a promotion, and when a customer calls to terminate it, can do this roll over stuff.

$129.99 - Comcast Internet, Phone and TV, Digital, all HBO, Starz and Showtime.
and then $22.90 in outlet fees which is my HD DVR from Comcast, with HD channels and DVR functionality, and a second standard digital box. I'm hoping that with my new TiVo box, I'll atleast save in some of the outlet fees cost.

I have another TiVo which gets international programming from Dish Network. I'll like that I will be able to transfer shows around. Comcast doesn't have the international programming that I want, Dish Network doesn't have CSN Philadelphia, and I anyways am not a fan of their DVRs. Tried DirecTV, Dish, Comcast and Verizon's DVRS and none were impressive. I did like my old Panasonic ReplayTV Showstopper unit though, as an alternative to the TiVo interface.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Hew said:


> That's not what I meant. Hopefully the MSO's will offer a Full TiVo software upgrade. No censoring of any features. I know that this is very unlikely, thats why I said hopefully. But if lets say the top 4 out of 5 companies offer TiVo services, the only way that each company can differentiate is by adding more and more TiVo features to their subs. This can lead to MSO's offering a full TiVo software box.
> 
> Don't forget that TiVo wants to be a pure software company that loads its software onto MSO's boxes. They are losing money for every box that they sell.


dont think that would ever happen.

it's clearly not the same but look at Verizon Wireless and GPS- they purposly lock it on all their phones although sprint as an example sells the same phone with it unlocked. Lot of good it does sprint- they're bleeding like mad.

But I agree it would be awesome


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> don't think they were ever in walmart. they are in best buy and circuit city and some other stores like that.
> 
> This seems to me like the 8th annual TiVo is dying thread and like the others is trying so hard to analyze with so little actual info.
> 
> ...


thanks for actual numbers- that doesn't seem so bad.

You think this is only the 8th annual tivo dying thread- I think it might be the 10th- laughing.

But as I wrote above- I'm starting to get concerned nothing they do seems to work. Nothing

and so they beat anaylysts estimates- what does that mean? The analysts thought they had a super sucky quarter but it only sucked a little?

also fyi- at some point you could buy tivo's at humax- you can still see the humax tivo webpages here:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/prod...art.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3874960
and looks like they even had them years and year ago with series 1's 14hr units:
http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/history/topic/45529-1.html


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> it's clearly not the same but look at Verizon Wireless and GPS- they purposly lock it on all their phones


The standalone GPS functionality is unlocked on the new Blackberry Storm from VZW. But I think it is the only such VZW phone (at this time, anyway). They are gradually opening up the services on their phones, such as offering more and more Bluetooth profiles.

But I don't know if the cable companies are under similar pressure to open their systems.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

CharlesH said:


> The standalone GPS functionality is unlocked on the new Blackberry Storm from VZW. But I think it is the only such VZW phone (at this time, anyway). They are gradually opening up the services on their phones, such as offering more and more Bluetooth profiles.
> 
> But I don't know if the cable companies are under similar pressure to open their systems.


actually nope - if i understand correctly - the blackberry storm is just as locked as ever. Wont work with google maps of other third parties as an example. Blackberry (rim)- just had a lot of power by giving VZ their touchscreen first exclusivley so they got VZ to allow the blackberry maps program inside the verizon walled garden.

So while verizon might open up bluetooth and other options which have no bearing on their products- they wont open up when it allows competitaion unless someone has more power.

Tivo has no such power with anyone to force any changes so they can bring their cool features inside cables fences.

Maybe Tivo will get more power- we can hope that things like netflix and the like make tivo more powerfull but i'm worried it's just wishful thinking.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> actually nope - if i understand correctly - the blackberry storm is just as locked as ever. Wont work with google maps of other third parties as an example. Blackberry (rim)- just had a lot of power by giving VZ their touchscreen first exclusivley so they got VZ to allow the blackberry maps program inside the verizon walled garden.


On a thread in the HowardForums Storm subforum, people say that they have gotten various third-party standalone GPS applications, such as nav4all, to work.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

not to drift from tivo- but that's GREAT news- i just got a Samsung Saga and it's locked and pissing me off- laughing


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> Maybe Tivo will get more power- we can hope that things like netflix and the like make tivo more powerfull but i'm worried it's just wishful thinking.


TiVo has always had the problem of people understanding why they would want a TiVo. 
record shows - I can do that with my VCR
pause and so forth - VCR or cable box/cable DVR

TiVo to Go - a few business travalers with laptops liked it but most saw no use in it
do some HME games or stream music - do that with my MP3 and Video game console
Rhapsody - do that with my MP3 - why no iTunes?

photos and MRV are about the only two features I have made someone else go - oohh cool over.
Even Amazon video rental left them kind of flat at 4$ a pop

that is why indeed walmart is a bad place to sell TiVo. monthly sub does not = bargain in most peoples eyes.

Netflix streaming may be the first feature for TiVo that everyday people can get their heads around as something cool and useful. helps that netflix is a sub service as well so that audience is already looking at monthly amount as a value way to go.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I have to say netflix streaming is a pretty slick thing to sell with. It might help. Tivo should get a mailing list from netflix and offer netflix subs some great deal. I'm guessing that's obvious to tivo's marketing people. I would guess that netflix and tivo appeal to similar groups. So if you grab the netflix subs and offer them a tivo for a big fat discount it might generate some traffic.


My sister-in-law called me the other day asking about blue-ray players and what to get my brother-in-law for christmas. I haven't paid much attention as my business is a little off this year so decided not to get myself a standalong blue ray player just yet. But I happened to have seen the posts here about the samsung blueray players with netflix. So I mentioned it to my sister in law- not knowing much about specifics I told her I guessed it would add $100 to the price for netflix. She didn't flinch- thought it was a great idea so that's all she will look at- the small handfull of players with netflix.

Had they not already been annoyed about tivo and the whole cable mess I probably could have talked her into getting a new S3 instead. 
(I gave them an S1 as a gift years ago with lifetime, then they got an S2- then they got cable HD around the time when tivo had no HD offering and they moved to cable DVR- then S1 dies and since they have a cabledvr they dont need to really spend the money on a new drive fo rthe S1 so they stop using it- then tivo doesn't reach out just but jacks their bill on the S2 since no longer MSD elgible- they're about done with tivo for now- maybe if an OCAP tivo ever shows up...)


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

I only read the first page of this thread before deciding to comment.

Tivo loses many possible new subscriptions to cable users who can get a DVR for very little. There are also many who have been paying for the monthly fee on an SD Tivo who have switched to the Cable DVR for a similar monthly fee except that it gets VOD and HD.

Tivo needs to implement a hardware lease option. Lets say you pay 18$ a month with no upfront fee and you get the Tivo hardware with a stipulation that if you decide to cancel and the hardware is not returned you get charged (just like the cable company). 
Not only would it allow people to choose the premium Tivo rental over the Cable co DVR but it would also let those who are unsure about Tivo to try it out for a while without any real commitment. 

I'm curious how all of you feel about my suggestion.


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## bluelinex (Nov 5, 2007)

I would like to just rent a DVR from the cable company with TIVO service & pay an extra fee. This way if the box breaks down I can go to the cable company office,pick up a new box & be up & running the same day. No stupid cable cards to wait to have installed.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

ShoutingMan said:


> That's a good point, but there's no exact comparison possible. I checked and TWC's DVR is supposed to hold 35 hrs of HD programming. Tivo's base model only holds 20 hrs, which is too little. I consider 40 the right amount. The TWC DVR is close enough, but with Tivo I'd have to go with the XL.


They have the same size hard drive. Somebody's inflating their numbers... 

And is your DVR from TWC really only $10 a month, or do you have to pay a box fee plus a service fee like those of us on Cox do? (I'd pay $16.21 more a month on my cable bill for the Cox box..takes me about 2 years to recoup the initial cost of the THD, which I got for $249 last christmas)


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> as I wrote above- I'm starting to get concerned nothing they do seems to work. Nothing


Yeah, I'm starting to get a bit worried myself. Companies are folding left and right... and TiVo, in spite of having IMO an excellent value for the cost of the product, just can't seem to get it together.

Yes, I've had some issues with the software, but really... I have a TiVo that works as a Netflix box, Amazon box, Rhapsody player, music player, plays all sorts of downloaded files (using my PC as converter), lets me transfer TV shows to my laptop, and is an OTA AND cable TV recorder, for less than the cost of an iPod, and (even including Rhapsody and Netflix services PLUS TiVo monthly cost) costs less than half of my cell phone plan.

I mean, we complain about the costs sometimes here, but geez - this is great value for the money.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Just stopped in to mention how much I love my TiVo...


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## Mindflux (Jan 16, 2008)

Where do you folks get your numbers from? Here with TWC Austin, I pay a $6.95 HD/DVR service and $5.10 for the digital converter (which I assume is the box DVR too?). Where and how are folks paying upwards to $25 for their DVR? I'm paying $12.05 if my figures are right assuming that both of those listed above are DVR fees. So, for me to rent two cable cards (TWC Austin doesn't seem to have "M" cards) is $2.65 each, plus 12.95 for Tivo + tax (assuming I don't buy a yearly sub or lifetime).

So, in short it costs me MORE to have a TiVo box than the provided DVR box (not including the up front MSRP $300 for the TiVo HD box).


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## AntennaRocks (Dec 14, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD652160-Digital-Video-Recorder/dp/B000RZDBM2
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD658000-HD-XL-DVR/dp/B001EWEIOW
> 
> ...


The way I can't seem to get Tivo to provide the HD antenna channel programming so that I can upgrade my Series 1 to work through my HD converter box, I would STAY AWAY FROM LIFETIME MEMBERSHIPS OR BUYING TIVO HARDWARE. Simply put, "Lifetime service" isn't. Is anyone suing over this yet? Who knows what else they won't provide in the future, and then you could be sitting there with a glorified VCR (I know I am).


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

AntennaRocks said:


> Is anyone suing over this yet?


i'll chip in $5 towards the lawyers' fees if you foot the rest of the bill.

d*****s


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

AntennaRocks said:


> The way I can't seem to get Tivo to provide the HD antenna channel programming so that I can upgrade my Series 1 to work through my HD converter box, I would STAY AWAY FROM LIFETIME MEMBERSHIPS OR BUYING TIVO HARDWARE. Simply put, "Lifetime service" isn't. Is anyone suing over this yet? Who knows what else they won't provide in the future, and then you could be sitting there with a glorified VCR (I know I am).


It's service for the lifetime of the unit. Welcome to the end of the lifetime of the unit.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

AntennaRocks said:


> The way I can't seem to get Tivo to provide the HD antenna channel programming so that I can upgrade my Series 1 to work through my HD converter box, I would STAY AWAY FROM LIFETIME MEMBERSHIPS OR BUYING TIVO HARDWARE. Simply put, "Lifetime service" isn't. Is anyone suing over this yet? Who knows what else they won't provide in the future, and then you could be sitting there with a glorified VCR (I know I am).


what functionality did you lose again?

So umm, no, I have not seen anyone else who, umm would publicly state they wanted to sue over something that so obviously looses before it even starts.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

AntennaRocks said:


> my Series 1


So upgrade the box to something current. Tivo's offered various upgrades from time to time. Take advantage of it and get with the current hardware and software.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

hahathatsfunny said:


> I buy a ton of office related items, with my customer #, get re-imbursed from my company, but accrue the reward points


 Ah, the old defraud the company for your own gain scheme, eh?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

wkearney99 said:


> Ah, the old defraud the company for your own gain scheme, eh?


Many companies encourage that as part of the perks.


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## jmace57 (Nov 30, 2002)

janry said:


> I'd say a lot of things caused it. All of the above, 1 year free subs expiring under the upgrade deal a year ago, and the ECONOMY.


<ding><ding><ding> I'll bet you nailed it janry!

Jim


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

I think this discussion/post is relevant http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6924731#post6924731

Basically because of a missing feature in the Tivo it creates significant extra monthly charges on top of its subscription fee.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Many companies encourage that as part of the perks.


And you do realize that's taxable income, don't you?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo requires a 12 month comittment, in part to cover hardware subsidies. Your idea would probably require a 24-36 month comittment. Tivo would have spend $$$ to handle the upfront costs and would have to spend money trying to collect termination fees from former customers. Tivo would probably have to include repairs in the monthly price. I assume your $18 figure includes hardware and service? I'm not sure if $6 a month is enough for hardware.

My guess is tivo still wouldn't be able to compete with cable companies for those customers that are looking for the cheapest DVR solution. Cable companies can "bundle price" and don't have any incremental cost in supplying guide data.

Tivo is sort of trying your idea with the Comcast program. You pay for tivo software on provider supplied boxes.



ciper said:


> I only read the first page of this thread before deciding to comment.
> 
> Tivo loses many possible new subscriptions to cable users who can get a DVR for very little. There are also many who have been paying for the monthly fee on an SD Tivo who have switched to the Cable DVR for a similar monthly fee except that it gets VOD and HD.
> 
> ...


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## will592 (Jan 4, 2007)

Mindflux said:


> Where do you folks get your numbers from? Here with TWC Austin, I pay a $6.95 HD/DVR service and $5.10 for the digital converter (which I assume is the box DVR too?). Where and how are folks paying upwards to $25 for their DVR? I'm paying $12.05 if my figures are right assuming that both of those listed above are DVR fees. So, for me to rent two cable cards (TWC Austin doesn't seem to have "M" cards) is $2.65 each, plus 12.95 for Tivo + tax (assuming I don't buy a yearly sub or lifetime).
> 
> So, in short it costs me MORE to have a TiVo box than the provided DVR box (not including the up front MSRP $300 for the TiVo HD box).


I get my numbers from Cox in Phoenix. When I dropped their HD DVR from my bill the total went down $28 (and change) a month. Digital Gateway service fee, HD fee (What?), DVR fee, DVR Rental. There was a time when it was a $10/month option for me but as they got people hooked they went ahead and cranked up the cost. I'd say you're lucky that your bill is so low, hope it stays that way for you.

Chris


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

Digital gateway+digital box fee is $10/mo, DVR service is $9.95/mo with Mediacom.

So that is more than the cost of the TiVo service + $1.99 cable card rental.


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## johnner1999 (Oct 26, 2002)

SnakeEyes said:


> Digital gateway+digital box fee is $10/mo, DVR service is $9.95/mo with Mediacom.
> 
> So that is more than the cost of the TiVo service + $1.99 cable card rental.


same here with CableVision -- cost for two HD DVR's from them is $38 a month LOL

and thats for that ****** 8300HD box... I told the rep they would need to pay me $38 a month to use them ;-)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SnakeEyes said:


> Digital gateway+digital box fee is $10/mo, DVR service is $9.95/mo with Mediacom.
> 
> So that is more than the cost of the TiVo service + $1.99 cable card rental.


the question to get the real difference in price though is 
What will be the total charges if you request a cable card

The cable company may well tack back on 
digital outlet fee
HD outlet fee
etc..


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the question to get the real difference in price though is
> What will be the total charges if you request a cable card
> 
> The cable company may well tack back on
> ...


The good news with Comcast is that at least on the primary outlet there are no additional charges beyond the $2.00 for the second cableCARD that my Series 3 requires. It looks like at least in our area, if you go with their DVR that there is a $6.95 DVR service fee on the primary outlet and then perhaps an $8.95 HD/DVR rental charge.

Scott


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the question to get the real difference in price though is
> What will be the total charges if you request a cable card
> 
> The cable company may well tack back on
> ...


I have a cable card. I just told you. It's $1.99

Those fees are tied, whether rightly or wrongly, with something the box provides such as Mediacom saying the digital gateway fee is for the guide data. That doesn't come with a cable card.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SnakeEyes said:


> I have a cable card. I just told you. It's $1.99.


rude much? Obviously my post was about if there are any fees *beyond* the cable card fee. Those need to be factored in as well. Such charges will vary by region.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

wkearney99 said:


> And you do realize that's taxable income, don't you?


so we're supposed to pay taxes when we get free plane tickets from miles earned during business travel?

yikes....


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> rude much? Obviously my post was about if there are any fees *beyond* the cable card fee. Those need to be factored in as well. Such charges will vary by region.


And you quoted me. And as I said, there aren't any.

If you were speaking in general and not specifically about me then you shouldn't have quoted me.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

SnakeEyes said:


> Digital gateway+digital box fee is $10/mo, DVR service is $9.95/mo with Mediacom.
> 
> So that is more than the cost of the TiVo service + $1.99 cable card rental.


I wish my dad's cable company would charge $1.99 per card. He pays $6.95 per card. Of course it is still better than paying $16.95 they wanted for their own DVR.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bigpuma said:


> I wish my dad's cable company would charge $1.99 per card. He pays $6.95 per card. Of course it is still better than paying $16.95 they wanted for their own DVR.


it's it 6.95 for cablecard or some combination of cablecard and addtional outloet fees?

At one time I paid a 2$ cablecard fee and a $4.95 addtional outlet fee.

if there's a line item for cablecard that says 6.95 I'd file a complaint at the FCC that it's excessive.

Many moons ago i read someplace that the FCC threatened cable with regulation of cablecard fees if they charged excessive amounts. It was some years ago and I beleive at the time the FCC suggested that up to $2 was reasonable. If you go back in time- for many years all the cable company's were at 2 bucks or below. Some have since pushed to 3 or 4. But if you are indeed paying a ~7 dollar fee then I think a complaint would get they FCC to say that's unreasonable. Not sure anything FAST would occur but one day in like 12 years i'm sure the fee would drop.

addtionaly outlet fees appear to be fair game with whatever the market will bear.

(unfortunately for the life of me I've never found the reference again)


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> it's it 6.95 for cablecard or some combination of cablecard and addtional outloet fees?
> 
> At one time I paid a 2$ cablecard fee and a $4.95 addtional outlet fee.
> 
> ...


I haven't actually looked at his bill so I really don't know. That is what he was told the cards would cost.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'm going to vote they call it 2 bucks or so for a card and the remainder is addtional outlet fee.

I know it's semantics (I'm getting hosed with the 2 cards and 2 outlet fees on each of my two S3's)- but to the FCC it's apparently ok to do.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SnakeEyes said:


> And you quoted me. And as I said, there aren't any.
> 
> If you were speaking in general and not specifically about me then you shouldn't have quoted me.


you siad that was more than the Tivo fee and 1.99$ cable card fee. My direct question is were there are other fees such as the digital outlet fee others have just posted about? Not until this post did you say directly there are no other fees.

but yes this was a general warning for all to check the cable bill and see what all fees they put on the bill.


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## F. Jones (Jun 2, 2001)

Here's how TiVo lost _me_ as a subscriber...terrible customer service. I have a Series 1, which I realize is old, but I've been paying the monthly fee and TiVo has not lived up to their end of the bargain. First Suggestions stopped working and now the programming data isn't being downloaded properly.

I thought, "Well, the box is old, and I'm going to upgrade to HD, so let's just give them one last chance (despite the fact that they don't deserve one based on their antagonistic treatment of their most loyal (and previously fanatic) customer base), and see what the new tech has to offer."

Apparently, I can't go HD and continue to use satellite. "Well, OK, I need to get that upgraded anyway to go HD, I'll go with the new AT&T bundle and maybe save some money."

Buuuuut, it doesn't work with that either.

So, while I have dearly loved TiVo for years and gone on about it endlessly to bored friends many times, they've just made it too difficult (and economically unfeasible as well as morally indefensible) to continue to feed them money to make my life more unpleasant.

If they had some convenient and/or reasonably-priced means of continuing with them, I would seriously consider it, but they can't treat me like garbage _and_ make things more difficult for me at the same time. I'd have to be a nut to stick with them.

So, I'll be getting some crappy DVR and my friends will have to listen to me moan about how it blows compared to my old TiVo, but at least I'll save time and money.

Just providing an anecdotal account of one out 163,000.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

F. Jones said:


> Apparently, I can't go HD and continue to use satellite. "Well, OK, I need to get that upgraded anyway to go HD, I'll go with the new AT&T bundle and maybe save some money."
> 
> Buuuuut, it doesn't work with that either.


Put the blame where it belongs, with the carriers. Use a content carrier that supports CableCard and you're set.


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## F. Jones (Jun 2, 2001)

wkearney99 said:


> Put the blame where it belongs, with the carriers. Use a content carrier that supports CableCard and you're set.


I'm not assessing blame on this particular issue, only explaining why I'm dumping TiVo. TiVo could have built up a reservoir of good will in me that might have forced my allegiance towards TiVo when it came to upgrading to HD, but since they didn't, this was the potentially camel-paralyzing straw, even if it wasn't technically their problem.

I suppose the larger point I'm making is the obvious one...good customer service breeds loyalty, while terrible customer service minimizes patience. If I'd felt they weren't trying to push me away, I'd jump through whatever hoops were necessary to stick with them.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

They built up plenty. Now that HD is available they did chose to make a unit that wouldn't work with set top boxes. Given the complexities and costs involved that's not a surprise. There's no way to translate that into some sort of 'loyalty' argument. That's just nonsensical.


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## F. Jones (Jun 2, 2001)

wkearney99 said:


> They built up plenty.


Not with me. They've been purposely irritating since last August and that tends to wear a person down.



> Now that HD is available they did chose to make a unit that wouldn't work with set top boxes. Given the complexities and costs involved that's not a surprise.


Why is it any more complex that doing what they've been doing for years? Not trying to be snarky, just asking the question. Also you're completely missing the larger point, but since you don't seem interested in it, I'll just let it drop.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> So, I'll be getting some crappy DVR and my friends will have to listen to me moan about how it blows compared to my old TiVo, but at least I'll save time and money.


On the bright side of things, since you are satellite user you will be pleasantly surprised how good of the DVR you will be getting. Both DSS providers have DVRs that put series 1 TiVo to shame. DirecTV's DVR HR-21 is at least on par with series 3 TiVo if not better. Dish's VIP722 is the best HD DVR on the market today. I think TiVo CS did you a favor by forcing you to use cheaper and better alternative.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

F. Jones said:


> I'm not assessing blame on this particular issue, only explaining why I'm dumping TiVo. TiVo could have built up a reservoir of good will in me that might have forced my allegiance towards TiVo when it came to upgrading to HD


Exactly how did they fail in this respect? Indeed, although I am not suggesting it was an altruistic move, they made a very dangerous and ultimately costly decision to engineer and release the S3 when they did. Admittedly, not to have done so would have been tantamount to suicide, but having done so they are now in a very difficult situation which might have been much more economically favorable had they NOT released the S3 class TiVos. OTOH, they would have missed out on 3 years worth of revenues and a lot of marketing momentum, which would very likely have been fatal.



F. Jones said:


> but since they didn't, this was the potentially camel-paralyzing straw, even if it wasn't technically their problem.


Technically? What are you suggesting they should have done? AT&T's U-Verse is proprietary. Had they produced a DVR without a signed contract from AT&T, then AT&T would have sued them out of existence, and not a single box would ever have been allowed to carry service. In addition, even had they gotten away with making an AT&T U-Verse compatible box, it would *ONLY* have been compatible with AT&T's U-Verse. It wouldn't work with any other system. Making a multi-syste box would have resulted in a box considerably more expensive than the S3, and you are already complaing about how much the S3 costs.

The same is true of Satellite services. If they ever manufactured a box compatible with Dish or DirecTV without a signed contract, the company in question would sue TiVo for their last red cent, and would refuse to turn on even a single one of the boxes.



F. Jones said:


> I suppose the larger point I'm making is the obvious one...good customer service breeds loyalty, while terrible customer service minimizes patience. If I'd felt they weren't trying to push me away, I'd jump through whatever hoops were necessary to stick with them.


How are they trying to push you away? They've made the most broadly supported DVR available to anyone - even more broadly supported than Scientific Atlanta and Motorola DVRs. The S3 class TiVos work with virtually every CATV system in the USA, and work with every single OTA broadcast station.

Again, what do you suggest they shoud have done differently? There was nothing - repeat *NOTHING* within their power they could have done to support even one single additional subscriber.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

F. Jones said:


> Not with me. They've been purposely irritating since last August and that tends to wear a person down.


How have they been "purposely irritating"?



F. Jones said:


> Why is it any more complex that doing what they've been doing for years?


How have they been not "doing what they've been doing for years"? About what change are you complaining?



F. Jones said:


> Also you're completely missing the larger point, but since you don't seem interested in it, I'll just let it drop.


I don't know whether he is (missing the larger point) or not, but I certainly am. I have no idea what behavior of TiVo's customer support has changed so radically for the worse since August, so I have no idea what your larger point would be.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

samo said:


> On the bright side of things, since you are satellite user you will be pleasantly surprised how good of the DVR you will be getting.


'Not from what I have heard. How easy is it to replace the internal hard drive on a Dish or DirecTV DVR with a larger one? How easy is it to copy the programming across one's home LAN to a video server or to copy to Blue Ray or DVD? How easy is it to hack the internal drive and add 3rd party applications? What is their substitute for Suggestions,and how does it work? What is their substitute for Wishlist searches and how does it work? How easy is it to schedule recording for a program not in the guide? How easy is it to schedule programming without using the stupid On Screen Guide? When searching for content, how fine-grained are the filters? Can one include a specific director while excluding a specific actor? Can one search by keywords from the guide data? How easy is it to serve music, pictures, and video from a local server? What about local weather reports, local traffic alerts, RSS feeds? What online video services (i.e. Netflix, Amazon On Demand, etc) are available? Can one browse You Tube? Can one order Pizza from them?



samo said:


> Both DSS providers have DVRs that put series 1 TiVo to shame.


Oh, wow! They have devices which are more powerful and sophisticated than one designed 11 years ago. Be still my heart. What's more, I'm skeptical of the statement. Even TiVo was not able to really outshine the S1 until the introduction of the S3.



samo said:


> DirecTV's DVR HR-21 is at least on par with series 3 TiVo if not better. Dish's VIP722 is the best HD DVR on the market today.


'Not from what I've seen. By the way, how much does it cost to buy the Dish VIP722, and how good is it's CableCard support? What 3rd party applications are available to load on the VIP722?
I think TiVo CS did you a favor by forcing you to use cheaper and better alternative.[/QUOTE]


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> Can one order Pizza from them?


LOL! No. But if your intent is to watch and record TV they work better than TiVo. I'm not going to address line by line all the garbage that TiVo added to what used to be clean interface at one time nor will I point out that some of the features that you consider unique to TiVo have been implemented long time ago on DSS DVRs, but one of the TiVo features that you accidentally omitted - additional ads is definitely not present.


> Oh, wow! They have devices which are more powerful and sophisticated than one designed 11 years ago.


OP will be switching from Series 1. He is not used to ordering pizza from TiVo. So he will be pleasantly surprised how nice DSS DVRs are as to compare with what he had for all these years and was paying $13 monthly for.


> By the way, how much does it cost to buy the Dish VIP722, and how good is it's CableCard support?


OP has satellite. No need for flaky cable cards. As for the price, for the new users both DSS providers will give you HD DVR for free, old users need to call and perhaps negotiate a little, but generally you can get them for under $200.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

samo said:


> LOL! No. But if your intent is to watch and record TV they work better than TiVo. I'm not going to address line by line all the *garbage *that TiVo added to what used to be clean interface at one time ...


While TiVo did add many marginal things over the years, I expect the addition of Netflix (and youtube)* will change calculations for many people.

* Generically - streaming and mp4 capability (incl. HD) ... coupled with an all you can eat type subscription model...

I see Netflix as the AOL of internet video in that, if you can remember AOL vs Prodigy or Compuserve, AOL pioneered the subscription models that ultimately led to its own explosion and ultimately the internet's.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> How easy is it to replace the internal hard drive on a Dish or DirecTV DVR with a larger one?


Dish's scheme for unlimited exchangeable outboard HDD storage for $40 makes hacking essentially an obsolete hassle.



> How easy is it to copy the programming across one's home LAN to a video server or to copy to Blue Ray or DVD?


How easy is it to record DVDs on a standalone recorder not part of a computer? Will it ever be possible to record Blu-ray discs on a standalone Blu-ray recorder?



> What is their substitute for Suggestions,and how does it work?


ReplayTV offered a HDD sized recording buffer instead of Suggestions. IMHO, a far better option. (YM of course V!)

LG offered a 6 hour rolling recording buffer which isn't dropped when changing channels and from which any part can be recorded to HDD and subsequently edited and then recorded on a DVD. MUCH better than either ReplayTV's (undeveloped) capabilities OR Suggestions. (YMV!)



> How easy is it to schedule recording for a program not in the guide?


Manual works without even a Green Card! (YMV!) 



> How easy is it to schedule programming without using the stupid On Screen Guide?


What's stupid about an EPG? ReplayTV's was always easier to use than TiVo's and offers more options even now. Why can't TiVo search from the EPG while a program is playing instead of making a viewer interrupt a program? THAT'S STUPID! :down::down::down: (YMV!)



> Can one order Pizza from them?


As you yourself said : 


> Be still my heart.





> Even TiVo was not able to really outshine the S1 until the introduction of the S3.


Apples are shinier than oranges. TiVo S1 & S2 are still fine for recording analog standard-def using a cable or satellite STB and are (figuratively) dirt cheap. 

ReplayTV's 5XXX was 'better' (more TiVolike in its search and prioritizing capabilities) than 4XXX (and earlier) ReplayTVs, but 4XXX has capabilities that neither RTV5XXX or TiVo offers. Ultimately it all depends on what a user wants. One size does *not* fit everybody! (YMV!) :up::down:


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## F. Jones (Jun 2, 2001)

samo said:


> Dish's VIP722 is the best HD DVR on the market today. I think TiVo CS did you a favor by forcing you to use cheaper and better alternative.


Thanks for giving me some hope and direction, samo. I've been reading stuff for the past couple of days, and I'm as confused as ever. So much of this is completely subjective (who would _want_ to order pizza from their TV?) that it's difficult to figure out what to commit to...and it tends to be a pretty big commitment.

It used to be easy. I wanted TiVo, so I'd just adopt a plan that worked with that. Now I'm looking for the inverse of what TiVo offers, and while that gives me a lot more in the way of options, options require a lot of knowledge I don't have. I'm not a video- or audiophile, so I don't want to learn a bunch of acronyms or crack open the case (although I'm technically savvy enough to do this, I don't consider the ability to tinker with a box to be of any value...it's just TV, so I set a priority on convenience)...I just want basically what I had before, only in HD. I'll check out the Dish DVR, thanks.

lrhorer, my beef with TiVo is based on their recent horrible customer service for Series 1 users. Suggestions stopped working in August (so updating to a DVR without them is a zero sum game at this point) and rather than acknowledging the problem, TiVo went into denial/stealth mode and sent people on wild goose chases and refused to answer whether or not they were going to fix the problem, or even think about the fixing the problem.

It took going to the BBB, contacting other outside consumer sites and letters to the CEO before the phone reps would even admit there was a problem. In my case, this was (after months of banging my head against the wall) resolved in a satisfactory manner, but right after that, guide data downloads started failing and TiVo's stance is the same place as it was when Suggestions failed. Suggestions are still not working, by the way, but I was given a partial refund. Actually, Suggestions would be slightly less important if there a free space indicator on the box, but that's another sore spot for me and also ancient history.

Now, I understand the Series 1 is old tech and there are problems with legacy hardware. I cut TiVo slack for months because I had previously been such a fanboy. My beef is with the customer service aspect, more so than the technical one.

This was a perfect opportunity to tell their Series 1 users "Look, we know you've gotten a lot of good years out your machines, but it's become a burden for us to maintain them, so here's a coupon/deal/whatever to help bring you into the 21st century and some information about the way the television world has changed since you made your last purchase."

They could have laid out a bunch of options and eased our way out of the Stone Age. Instead they give us the runaround and insult us. That's the kind of thing that drives people off, which is why I posted in this thread, as an explanation.

As for the tech, if the output going to the TV is standardized, then I don't understand why running that, from any source, through a third party device wouldn't work. If the TV can see the picture, then TiVo should.

Is the problem with satellite legal or technical?


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## doug6501 (Dec 31, 2006)

Jebberwocky! said:


> I'm pretty happy with DTV software - when I use my TIVO, the TIVO interface seems so last century


that is crazy. i've tried time warner's, cox's, and the latest AT&T and hate them all. the tivo system is clean and to the point. get me my shows and get there fast. neatly organize my shows and keep all the stupid slow menus. cable dvr's get kudos from people that have never touched a tivo - that's all.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

F. Jones said:


> They could have laid out a bunch of options and eased our way out of the Stone Age. Instead they give us the runaround and insult us. That's the kind of thing that drives people off, which is why I posted in this thread, as an explanation.


 TiVo has presented opportunities to upgrade by moving lifetime subs at many instances already. There were more when the series 2 first came out as well. How many times do they need to offer deals? As for the runaround, if TiVo had no idea what was going wrong, how could they give any info other then "We have no idea". Not much of a script for the CSR. I poked around in those threads and noted that TiVo employees had a distinct presence in them and were getting info and doing what they could to recreate the problems and look for the cause. So why call a CSR when you have a higher level TiVo employee posting what they know and where they are in troubleshooting the issue in a forum you know about?



> As for the tech, if the output going to the TV is standardized, then I don't understand why running that, from any source, through a third party device wouldn't work. If the TV can see the picture, then TiVo should.
> 
> Is the problem with satellite legal or technical?


Yes - the legal problem of needing the permission of DirectTV or Dish before getting access to their unencrypted digital stream or else the technical hurdle of making a DVR that could record from component output instead plus having to control the DBS receiver for less than 1,000$ kept TiVo or anyone from making a 3rd party marketable DVR. If you can not see that then there are still high level aspects of how a DVR works that you need to have a deeper understanding of. Displaying that picture and recording that picture to a hard drive in a digital format that can be used later are two very different things.
Plus no matter how well you engineer such a component recorder it will always be second best to the DBS DVR that simply writes the original digital stream right to the hard drive.

TiVo finally has a contract with DirecTV again now that they are under new ownership. That new TiVo Hd recorder will likely be out in 2009 but no one knows what it will be like yet. So right now if you go DBS then your only choice is to use the DVR that they supply. I had a friend drop by this evening and he was thinking to dive deeper into HD. I told him I liked my TiVo HD and cable a lot and had no regrets, especially with all the added features of TiVo I like to use. I also told him that DISH likely would end up having the best HD selection nad if he went that route to simply get the DISH DVR and he would likely be happy with it. Seemed a more rational set of reasons then I called the CSRs and they could not tell me all about something TiVo Had no idea about as to what was causing the issue on their 2 versions ago hardware.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

samo said:


> LOL! No. But if your intent is to watch and record TV they work better than TiVo.


The fact that you would claim that about a DVR with no dual live buffers and a 50 "series link" limit, along with other issues, suggests that your viewpoint isn't common or subjective. If DTV actually allows TiVo to implement something similar to the S3 a lot of DTV costumers will gladly pay extra to come back to TiVo.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

F. Jones said:


> As for the tech, if the output going to the TV is standardized, then I don't understand why running that, from any source, through a third party device wouldn't work. If the TV can see the picture, then TiVo should.
> 
> Is the problem with satellite legal or technical?


It's both, but ultimately it's really a business problem.

Capturing digital output directly via HDMI is possible, but not allowed according HDMI licensing.. That means that you would have to digitize and compress the HD stream from your component video outputs. This is possible, but the hardware is expensive and the resulting files are still quite large.

That means a very expensive DVR that you still have to connect to another set-top box with IR blasters. What Tivo has found is that even if people might prefer TiVo over a cable or sat company DVR, there is a limit to premium they'll pay or how much complication they'll tolerate.

The bottom line is that TiVo doesn't think that there are enough customers out there who will pay for a non-integrated DVR to justify the cost to design, build, and support one.


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## F. Jones (Jun 2, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo has presented opportunities to upgrade by moving lifetime subs at many instances already.


That was then, this is now. The Series 2s and Series 3s didn't provide any desirable benefit to me, so I didn't upgrade. Simple capitalism.

Speaking of which, note that TiVo has been getting "free money" from me for quite some time. I didn't take the lifetime service and I haven't made them eat any costs by buying their hardware at a loss. They've picked up their $13/month from me without complaint and only an imperceptible drain on their infrastructure.

They should be treating people in this situation like kings. Or at least like human beings.



> As for the runaround, if TiVo had no idea what was going wrong, how could they give any info other then "We have no idea". Not much of a script for the CSR.


You've misrepresented TiVo's response. The phone techs said "It's not our problem" and told people to chase down Sony and Phillips. That was their official response.

There was no official word from TiVo about the problem itself, which is even less information than "We have no idea". There was no acknowledgment that they even knew the problem existed. Whether or not they were ever planning on fixing it, or even thinking about fixing it, they should have said so.

If you have a contract with someone to provide a service and then they stop providing it without explanation, then it comes down to how much the customer is willing to take from the party in violation of the contract before they hit their breaking point. "We're sorry, we're working on it" would have been enough to keep me happy a good while longer.



> I poked around in those threads and noted that TiVo employees had a distinct presence in them and were getting info and doing what they could to recreate the problems and look for the cause. So why call a CSR when you have a higher level TiVo employee posting what they know and where they are in troubleshooting the issue in a forum you know about?


Because none of these people on the forum are speaking in an official capacity (and it took months before they said anything of interest). Their opinions on this topic are valueless. Additionally, if their customer service model is to leak a few cryptic, unconfirmed comments on an unofficial forum the vast majority of their customers have never heard of, they can't expect the results to be positive. Requiring their customers to fumble around in the land of "How is babby formed?" reflects on the kind of service a customer can reasonably expect in the future, and the quality of that service is part of the consideration when making a significant service-based purchase.

Getting the phone techs to say one sentence instead of another would have been trivial, but they didn't think the customer base was important enough to do that. That gives one a pretty clear picture of the quality of their customer service.



> I also told him that DISH likely would end up having the best HD selection nad if he went that route to simply get the DISH DVR and he would likely be happy with it. Seemed a more rational set of reasons then I called the CSRs and they could not tell me all about something TiVo Had no idea about as to what was causing the issue on their 2 versions ago hardware.


If you think my actions are irrational, then there are still low level aspects of how capitalism works that you need to have a deeper understanding of. But thanks for highlighting another reason to dump TiVo.

Anyway, the point of the thread is to discuss the loss of customers. Poor customer service is a well-established reason for customer loss, which is sad, because it's one of the easiest things to fix.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

F. Jones said:


> That was then, this is now. The Series 2s and Series 3s didn't provide any desirable benefit to me, so I didn't upgrade. Simple capitalism.
> 
> Speaking of which, note that TiVo has been getting "free money" from me for quite some time. I didn't take the lifetime service and I haven't made them eat any costs by buying their hardware at a loss. They've picked up their $13/month from me without complaint and only an imperceptible drain on their infrastructure.


so what did you want then. You could at any point pay the money to get a new TiVo and transfer the monthly sub over. But what the hey keep paying 13 a month for years versus a one time 199$ fee years ago and then complain about paying the 13 a month for old hardware because you never bothered to get the new hardware and simply switch the sub to it.

so sure, irrational consumers are a hard component to fit into capitalistic models and that is a deeper experience of knowing the artful way of adding that to the spreadsheets used to determine the best business model.

The TiVo employees in the threads said "we are sorry, we are working to figure it out" Too bad they did not take that 13 they got from you and others and raise it to 20 a month so they could spend money on the best CSR team in the World and add all those other irrational customers willing to pony up 20$ a month as well. Not doing sop was clearly their downfall


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## F. Jones (Jun 2, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> But what the hey keep paying 13 a month for years versus a one time 199$ fee years ago and then complain about paying the 13 a month for old hardware because you never bothered to get the new hardware and simply switch the sub to it.


I'm not complaining about this at all. When I bought the TiVo, I didn't know how long the company was going to last, so I took a route that seemed reasonable and it didn't pay off, financially. Nonetheless, I enjoyed the service so much that I happily paid the monthly fee without complaint. It was completely worth it to me.

My issue is with the poor customer service. I pointed out my particular situation only to highlight the fact that I'm the kind of customer TiVo should be trying to keep (ie, the best for their bottom line).



> ...irrational consumers are a hard component to fit into capitalistic models...


There's nothing irrational about paying a fair price for good service and not upgrading to get features that are of no interest to the customer. Responding positively to poor service would be irrational.



> The TiVo employees in the threads said "we are sorry, we are working to figure it out"...


You're misrepresenting and mischaracterizing the response. It was weeks before there was any response from a TiVo employee, at which time all he said was that they were "investigating". Well, that's interesting, but it doesn't answer the obvious consumer question of "Do you have any plans to fix it?". This is an extremely reasonable question, given that UK TiVo users were told their Suggestions would never work again. At least they got an answer.

Months later, he still had not answered that question, and the phone techs (the only official TiVo communication) were _still_ giving false information to the customer. During this time, customers were continuing to pay full price for degraded service.

Additionally, one rep, speaking unofficially in his spare time on an unofficial forum is not an actual response.

A customer who seeks information as to why a contract has been violated is not irrational and the party that violated the contract without explanation or obvious mitigating circumstances is not to be defended by rational individuals.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

F. Jones said:


> Getting the phone techs to say one sentence instead of another would have been trivial...


Hell, just getting YOU to say one sentence would be nice. Give it a rest already.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

F. Jones said:


> I pointed out my particular situation only to highlight the fact that I'm the kind of customer TiVo should be trying to keep (ie, the best for their bottom line).


umm, best for their bottom line is a customer who upgrades without looking for a handout or who at the least understands he is running on legacy hardware that will not get the same support it would have gotten 5 years ago. TiVo is indeed doing what is best for their bottom line and that line moved beyond Series 1 a while back.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> umm, best for their bottom line is a customer who upgrades without looking for a handout or who at the least understands he is running on legacy hardware that will not get the same support it would have gotten 5 years ago. TiVo is indeed doing what is best for their bottom line and that line moved beyond Series 1 a while back.


Smart thing for TiVo bottom line would be to send free refurb series 2 to all series 1 monthly subs (perhaps with 1 or 2 year commitment requirement).
But I don't recall the last time time TiVo made smart business decision except for lawsuit.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> Smart thing for TiVo bottom line would be to send free refurb series 2 to all series 1 monthly subs (perhaps with 1 or 2 year commitment requirement).
> But I don't recall the last time time TiVo made smart business decision except for lawsuit.


if they could drop all phone the mothership support with that then it probably would give them a positive return. Too bad they have such a hard time convincing people to use broadband.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if they could drop all phone the mothership support with that then it probably would give them a positive return. Too bad they have such a hard time convincing people to use broadband.


do a lot of new S2 and S3's really still use the phone line?

Maybe they should include wifi in the boxes?

But in the mean time- if that is a problem then why not just charge extra for phone vs broadband connections?

curious


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## F. Jones (Jun 2, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> umm, best for their bottom line is a customer who upgrades without looking for a handout or who at the least understands he is running on legacy hardware that will not get the same support it would have gotten 5 years ago.


I am just such a customer.

Is it your position that TiVo should lie to their customers and violate contracts without explanation? Please answer this question.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

F. Jones said:


> I am just such a customer.
> 
> Is it your position that TiVo should lie to their customers and violate contracts without explanation? Please answer this question.


in your case there was a problem with the Series 1, maybe. TiVo tried to deal with it - did determine there was indeed an issue and I assume are in the process of trying to fix it. I have not followed the threads after my initial curiosity.

It is more than just my opinion that no company should lie to their customers nor violate contracts. Kind of built into our business laws.

It is also my opinion that companies have a hard time with legacy stuff that no Subject Matter experts are around for anymore. TiVo may well have had a confused response to what was happening with some people in Tivo knowing more than others and all of them trying to get to the same root cause and then if it is something that needs fixed and then how.

TiVo could not live up to your expectations of correct data in the timeline you wanted. if you want to accuse them of deceit and contractual negligence that is your concern but in my opinion it is an over reaction.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

F. Jones said:


> Is it your position that TiVo should lie to their customers and violate contracts without explanation? Please answer this question.


Yes.

But only when that customer whines incessantly about it. Enough already. :down:


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

What was so intensely complex that stopped working?


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## F. Jones (Jun 2, 2001)

So, after all the bluster, we basically agree on all the relevant points.



ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo tried to deal with it - did determine there was indeed an issue and I assume are in the process of trying to fix it. I have not followed the threads after my initial curiosity.


Perhaps if you had read them more carefully, you would understand the issue, and wouldn't defend something you most likely don't actually agree with.



> TiVo could not live up to your expectations of correct data in the timeline you wanted.


It's a contractual agreement to provide Suggestions as part of the basic TiVo service. The issue has nothing to do with my personal beliefs.



> if you want to accuse them of deceit and contractual negligence that is your concern but in my opinion it is an over reaction.


That it is a violation of contract is simply a statement of fact. They know about the problem, but tell the customer something else (they are continuing to do so to this day, by the way)...that is either willful deceit or utter incompetence.

Since it seems clear you think all of those things are bad, it could be that you defended TiVo simply because this is happening to people who aren't you.

Fair enough.


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