# No End In Sight For TiVo Losses



## PoobBubes (Jun 30, 2010)

No End In Sight For TiVo Losses

This doesn't sound good.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)




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## plazman30 (Jan 23, 2005)

The economy is in the sh*tter. The TiVo is a luxury items. It's going to suffer in this economy.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

plazman30 said:


> The economy is in the sh*tter. The TiVo is a luxury items. It's going to suffer in this economy.


Actually luxury items are doing well in this economy - rich are getting richer. Tivo is not a luxury item, it is a mid-price CE item and costs less than most cell phones. Tivo has lost money in every economy in last 11 years, so there is nothing new besides high churn rate (almost 25% per year). It is four times higher than it was 10 years ago.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

25&#37;! I didn't know it was that high. At that rate, how long can they stay in business?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

They said almost the same thing about my company, ten years ago. We were losing money. Our competitors were many, and they all had sexy, attractive market positions. We were boring, and had the poorest earning potential in our sector.

So the analysts said.

All but one of the many major enterprise competitors in our sector have gone chapter 13, and that one went chapter 11. It's doing better, now, but its limping. In the mean time, we've gone from a company only a few times larger than Tivo is right now to a multi-billion dollar a year enterprise. We never filed chapter anything. Our capital expenditures right now are leaving everyone else in the dust - even the giant, non-enterprise players. Meanwhile, all the stock certificates purchased by everyone who believed the analysts are now worth less than Confederate money.

So much for the analysts.


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## jmill (Feb 22, 2010)

lrhorer said:


> They said almost the same thing about my company, ten years ago. We were losing money. Our competitors were many, and they all had sexy, attractive market positions. We were boring, and had the poorest earning potential in our sector.
> 
> So the analysts said.
> 
> ...


You're comparing apples to oranges.

TiVo need to rethink their business model and *innovate, innovate and again innovate[]/b]. They're still using pretty much the same DVR as 11 years ago. Yes, TiVo Premiere is slightly faster but at the end it is still the same TiVo as Series 2 and Series 3. Except for support for high-def, there is nothing really new or super exciting.*


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## plazman30 (Jan 23, 2005)

jmill said:


> You're comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> TiVo need to rethink their business model and *innovate, innovate and again innovate[]/b]. They're still using pretty much the same DVR as 11 years ago. Yes, TiVo Premiere is slightly faster but at the end it is still the same TiVo as Series 2 and Series 3. Except for support for high-def, there is nothing really new or super exciting.*


*

I really think TiVo needs to become a merger of a DVR, a Roku and be able to play media off a uPNP share.*


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

That was a brutal quarter, no question, and the settlement with Dish Network and the upcoming DirecTV contract are desperately needed and the solutions. TiVo will not turn it around with just cable and OTA DVR revenue but thankfully shouldn't have to.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

jmill said:


> You're comparing apples to oranges.


He's not making any comparison at all, he's saying that analysts can be very wrong by stating a specific example.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> He's not making any comparison at all, he's saying that analysts can be very wrong by stating a specific example.


Thanks, and that's right. One among many.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Chris Gerhard said:


> That was a brutal quarter, no question, and the settlement with Dish Network and the upcoming DirecTV contract are desperately needed and the solutions. TiVo will not turn it around with just cable and OTA DVR revenue but thankfully shouldn't have to.


Pleanty of businesses have suffered far more brutal ones and survived well enough. While I agree, of course, that both the things you mention are extremely important, The FCC's actions over the next few months may be far more important still. There may be finally a glimmer of hope the FCC may actually force the CATV companies into adopting some reason.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

plazman30 said:


> I really think TiVo needs to become a merger of a DVR, a Roku and be able to play media off a uPNP share.


Other than the fact that they still require their own media server (vs uPNP), they've pretty much done just that. They just haven't implemented any of it in a way that is compelling enough for even their diehard customers to see it as particularly innovative.

TiVo has tried to focus on TiVo Search as the single point of integration for content. So far that effort hasn't won many people over.


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## plazman30 (Jan 23, 2005)

nrc said:


> Other than the fact that they still require their own media server (vs uPNP), they've pretty much done just that. They just haven't implemented any of it in a way that is compelling enough for even their diehard customers to see it as particularly innovative.
> 
> TiVo has tried to focus on TiVo Search as the single point of integration for content. So far that effort hasn't won many people over.


Roku offers more online content than TiVo does right now. Hulu Plus should have launched on TiVo before Roku.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> Actually luxury items are doing well in this economy - rich are getting richer. Tivo is not a luxury item, it is a mid-price CE item and costs less than most cell phones. Tivo has lost money in every economy in last 11 years, so there is nothing new besides high churn rate (almost 25% per year). It is four times higher than it was 10 years ago.


the person simply meant that a middle class consumer does not need a Tivo or any DVR and can cut that from the budget.

also with discussion of DirectTV subs versus Tivo owned subs the picture is inaccurate on TiVo churn rate


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## jimboevv (Jan 17, 2005)

When Tivo first started - I have been a customer for almost 10 years - it was very innovative, even cutting edge. Now, with Netflix streaming available on almost ANY device, they need to find more unique approaches to continue that feeling of innovation. Here's a suggestion: Imagine how powerful it would be to partner with someone like Sling? A one-box solution that would record and share my content across multiple platforms would be awesome. Also, why don't they figure out a way to help people stream their content to and from the Mac platform without third-party tools. The tivo community, at times, seems better at the innovation than the folks at the company. Here's hoping that Tivo gets its groove back!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jimboevv said:


> Imagine how powerful it would be to partner with someone like Sling? A one-box solution that would record and share my content across multiple platforms would be awesome.


DiSH network bought Sling and has DVRs out that use it - these are not burning up the market share either.

People equate innovative with profits but that equation does not always happen in the real business world of bottom lines. It is just something that we ourselves would want BUT at the current price point or lower. The majority of Consumers typically are not willing to pay more for innovation


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jimboevv said:


> When Tivo first started - I have been a customer for almost 10 years - it was very innovative, even cutting edge. Now, with Netflix streaming available on almost ANY device, they need to find more unique approaches to continue that feeling of innovation. Here's a suggestion: Imagine how powerful it would be to partner with someone like Sling? A one-box solution that would record and share my content across multiple platforms would be awesome. Also, why don't they figure out a way to help people stream their content to and from the Mac platform without third-party tools. The tivo community, at times, seems better at the innovation than the folks at the company. Here's hoping that Tivo gets its groove back!


You may think lack of new innovative features on the TiVo is what holding TiVo back from selling 10X what their selling, IMHO it's just not true, it's cable cards + cable co. hassle as compared to the cable co DVR, for most active people on this form my statement may not be true, but for Joe six pack and many non technical others with busy lives, they don't have time or care about TiVos better interface, the cable DVR does their job and one call fixes any problem at zero cost, no shipping, tech support hassle, as the cable co.s just give you a new DVR if you say you have problems, no unplugging the DVR and wait 9 minutes to see if it now works etc.
TiVos main chance to make it big is their patents, and if they hold up TiVo will be a very successful co.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

because premiere is just a loser, really its just a worse version of tivo. Tivo needs to scrap it current design and start over. Maybe start with 3 tuners, and a faster interface.


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

What they need to push is OTA plus the internet offerings of broadband. I cut my cable several years ago and went with Tivo and have saved at least $4k by now less the cost of the Tivos. I don't know why more people don't so that. Oh wait, the same excuse me and everyone else uses "I need that one channel that I can't get over the air" or "my wife has to have HDTV."


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

The premiere should have had 3 tuners. I would upgrade to a premiere if it had 3 tuners. It requires manual intervention each week to record NFL football on Sunday and extend the recording time by an hour on the network that has 2 games. 3 tuners would resolve the issue.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

shwru980r said:


> The premiere should have had 3 tuners. I would upgrade to a premiere if it had 3 tuners. It requires manual intervention each week to record NFL football on Sunday and extend the recording time by an hour on the network that has 2 games. 3 tuners would resolve the issue.


That sucks doesn't it? 3 tuners is the Brute force way of fixing it.

Simple software fix would do it too though. Instead it's an example of Tivo not further refining its recording technology after all these years.

Tivo should be smart enough to recognize I'm recording 2 games back to back on the same channel and record the 2nd game no matter how long I extend my recording of the first game.

It should also let me clip the beginning of any program by more than a minute particularly for sporting events where missing the first 10 or 15 or 30 minutes isn't dire.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

wireless200 said:


> What they need to push is OTA plus the internet offerings of broadband. I cut my cable several years ago and went with Tivo and have saved at least $4k by now less the cost of the Tivos. I don't know why more people don't so that. Oh wait, the same excuse me and everyone else uses "I need that one channel that I can't get over the air" or "my wife has to have HDTV."


Yes I think promoting Tivo with OTA and broadband offerings would be a nice marketing effort.

Their broadband offerings unfortunately are behind other devices in number and implementation.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Last why doesn't Tivo have a leading streaming feature? 

Tivo streaming should be everywhere Netflix is. I should be able to stream my Tivo'd shows to a Roku or ATV or BR player. 

I shouldn't have to buy a $300 Tivo plus $300 lifetime so I can watch my shows that are on my other Tivo. I shouldn't have to buy a $300 Tivo plus $13/month to do that either. I shouldn't have to do this unless I want or need more tuners.

Maybe a Tivo recording is too bandwidth intensive/not efficient enough. Is it still Mpeg2? I guess it probably difficult to do real-time h.264 encoding per tuner with Tivo's processing power? 

Tivo could even make their own cheap streaming box.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

jimboevv said:


> When Tivo first started - I have been a customer for almost 10 years - it was very innovative, even cutting edge. Now, with Netflix streaming available on almost ANY device, they need to find more unique approaches to continue that feeling of innovation.


Why?



jimboevv said:


> Here's a suggestion: Imagine how powerful it would be to partner with someone like Sling?


Such a device might make it through CableLabs certification, but I shouldn't like to bet the house on it, and the cost of licensing the patents from Sling / Dish would be, to say the least, prohibitive. Charlie Ergen (sp?) woud probably rather cut his cohones off with a dull knife than sell a patent to TiVo.



jimboevv said:


> A one-box solution that would record and share my content across multiple platforms would be awesome.


You would call it, "Awesome". The average potential buyer would call it, "Too expensive for something I neither want nor need."



jimboevv said:


> The tivo community, at times, seems better at the innovation than the folks at the company. Here's hoping that Tivo gets its groove back!


If this surprises you, then you are being foolish. Third party developers are *ALWAYS* more innovative.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> The premiere should have had 3 tuners. I would upgrade to a premiere if it had 3 tuners.


I don't want a Premier. If it had three tuners, I would want it even less, given it would be considerably more expensive.



shwru980r said:


> It requires manual intervention each week to record NFL football on Sunday and extend the recording time by an hour on the network that has 2 games. 3 tuners would resolve the issue.


So in other words, it isn't necessary for you, either.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> DiSH network bought Sling and has DVRs out that use it - these are not burning up the market share either.


Oh, but jimboevv would buy one, so obviously TiVo should invest whatever amount it takes to implement sling. 

And obviously the millions of subs on CATV systems who are leasing DVRs are all going to immediately dump their leased DVRs and buy TiVos if they add a third tuner. All of us who own TiVos already are also going to dump however many TiVos we already own and buy new TiVos to get that third (or ninth!) tuner for which we really have no particular need, that won't work with our Tuning Adapters in any case.

Right.



ZeoTiVo said:


> People equate innovative with profits but that equation does not always happen in the real business world of bottom lines.


Usually quite the opposite. Glitz usually sells far better than any true innovation, and costs almost nothing to implement, while true innovation often costs a great deal to implement.



ZeoTiVo said:


> It is just something that we ourselves would want BUT at the current price point or lower. The majority of Consumers typically are not willing to pay more for innovation


I certainly am not, at least not for innovation in and of itself. It needs to support a very real need, not just be "gee whiz".


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> Last why doesn't Tivo have a leading streaming feature?


They do. I think you need to be more specific. Do you mean outbound streaming? When the S3 was developed, it wasn't allowed by CableLabs. It was only after the introduction of the THD - long after its development, that CableLabs relaxed their requirements. What's more, the THD and S3 don't have the horsepower to decrypt and stream simultaneously.



trip1eX said:


> Tivo streaming should be everywhere Netflix is. I should be able to stream my Tivo'd shows to a Roku or ATV or BR player.


So go buy a DVR that does. Oh, wait...



trip1eX said:


> I shouldn't have to buy a $300 Tivo plus $300 lifetime so I can watch my shows that are on my other Tivo. I shouldn't have to buy a $300 Tivo plus $13/month to do that either. I shouldn't have to do this unless I want or need more tuners.


So you want TiVo to spend more money delivering a box to you so you can give them less money. Exactly what would be their motivation for doing so?



trip1eX said:


> Maybe a Tivo recording is too bandwidth intensive/not efficient enough. Is it still Mpeg2? I guess it probably difficult to do real-time h.264 encoding per tuner with Tivo's processing power?


With the exception of analog video, the TiVo doesn't encode anything. All digital video coming into the TiVo is - surprise, surprise - already digitally encoded. If it comes in MPEG2 (all CATV and Digital OTA content), then it stays MPEG2. If it comes in MPEG4, then it stays MPEG4. All the TiVo does is encrypt it.



trip1eX said:


> Tivo could even make their own cheap streaming box.


So they could sell fewer DVRs and - more importantly - fewer subscriptions? Again, why would they? Why *SHOULD* they?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> Yes I think promoting Tivo with OTA and broadband offerings would be a nice marketing effort.


In context, this doesn't make much sense. They support OTA - more substantially than any other DVR, and they support broadband services, again more substantially than any other DVR. They are marketing both. What is it you are saying they are not doing that they should?



trip1eX said:


> Their broadband offerings unfortunately are behind other devices in number and implementation.


Oh, really? Name one other DVR with more substantial broadband offerings, other than an HTPC.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wireless200 said:


> What they need to push is OTA plus the internet offerings of broadband. I cut my cable several years ago and went with Tivo and have saved at least $4k by now less the cost of the Tivos.


Which is less than 1/10 of what you have paid for OTA.



wireless200 said:


> I don't know why more people don't so that.


Well, the fact with the exception of PBS there is virtually nothing even remotely worthwhile OTA probably has something to do with it.

Some of us also object to being forced to support the lowlife scum who run the networks, and so would avoid network programming even if were decent.



wireless200 said:


> Oh wait, the same excuse me and everyone else uses "I need that one channel that I can't get over the air" or "my wife has to have HDTV."


From what I hear, few wives are dedicated to HD. Certainly all the females with which I have had the conversation are ambivalent at best concerning HD vs. SD. How that is germane to the issue escapes me, however. The locals are HD OTA if they are HD on the local CATV system. Not having CATV service doesn't prevent one from viewing HD.

I want pay TV because:

1. I want to pay my own way. I do not want to force you, or anyone else, to pay for my entertainment.

2. No offense, but I object to you - or anyone else - forcing me to pay for your entertainment. This would be true even if it were less than it costs me for CATV services, but the fact it costs much more than 10X as much as CATV service makes it particularly galling. The fact the programming is so truly pathetic makes it virtually unbearable to me. (Which is why I avoid Network TV even though I am paying dearly for it.)

3. Of the dozens of programs I record every week, the vast majority are on premium channels (HBO, SHowtime, Encore, Cinemax, etc.). Some are on PBS, which of course I could get OTA. The remainder are on Cable Channels. I avoid recording anything off the network affiliates.


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## Gene S (Feb 11, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> In context, this doesn't make much sense. They support OTA - more substantially than any other DVR, and they support broadband services, again more substantially than any other DVR. They are marketing both. What is it you are saying they are not doing that they should?
> 
> Oh, really? Name one other DVR with more substantial broadband offerings, other than an HTPC.


The problem, is you are equating Tivo to ONLY a DVR. Have you been to the website recently?

Here you go. http://www.tivo.com/what-is-tivo/tivo-is/index.html

That big flashy eye catching graphics that takes up the top 1/3 of the web page... It doesn't even mention it's a DVR!

Tivo has advertised itself as a multimedia box. As that, it falls short!


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> I don't want a Premier. If it had three tuners, I would want it even less, given it would be considerably more expensive.


How could you want it even less if you don't want it to start with? How much more would it cost with 3 tuners?



lrhorer said:


> So in other words, it isn't necessary for you, either.


I think it is necessary. If I forget to do it, then one game is not recorded.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> And obviously the millions of subs on CATV systems who are leasing DVRs are all going to immediately dump their leased DVRs and buy TiVos if they add a third tuner.


Tivo doesn't need every person leasing a cable company DVR to switch to Tivo for Tivo to turn a profit. That's ridiculous.

A third tuner would resolve the issue with recording NFL football or other back to back live broadcasts that can run longer than their alloted time.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

All I know is this Sunday I am watching Football with the family and someone asks about the score of another game. I am not an engineer, but even I would think in an attempt at the one box to rule them all, getting quick access to sports scores would be semi-important. So instead of showing the power and coolness of Tivo by quickly selecting SPORTS SCORES in one of the menus, a group of people sit and watch the top corner of the screen for sports scores to pop up all the while wondering why. Tivo=Fail.

It attempted to do big things and forgot all the little ones. And along the way, ads become more important then sales.


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Which is less than 1/10 of what you have paid for OTA.
> 
> Well, the fact with the exception of PBS there is virtually nothing even remotely worthwhile OTA probably has something to do with it.
> 
> ...


You kind of lost me on some of this stuff. I haven't paid anything for OTA. It's 100% free.

I was suprised after cutting the cable - there' s a decent amount of stuff on OTA. Every big sports game is on there. There's a ton and I mean a whole lot more trash on cable than network. I watch cable when I travel and it's just unbelieveable. Fall of western civilization stuff. In any case you have all those (expensive) movie channels. I use netflix or other streaming features on tivo and in the worst case wait the day or two it takes for Netflix to mail me the dvd. How much tv do you watch to need so many movie channels anyway? It sounds like you're paying for a lot of content and not using most of it.

I really think I'm missed something when you refer to "lowlife scum who run the networks." What are you talking about? How is network worse than cable only channels? Either way OTA network is free and if you have cable you're paying the cable company to pay the cable-only and main networks for content.

Sorry, I still don't know how you're being forced to pay for network TV. I haven't paid for it in four years but have had a nice array of channels to watch. In case you didn't know each OTA main channel also includes several side channels. I actually get quite a few channels.

I think you should rephrase it as "no one should make me pay for cable." I foresee the politicians forcing broadcast (OTA) off the air and selling the spectrum and forcing us free TV watchers to pay cable or satellite. Of course we'll have to pay for that but the "poor" people will be subsidized by the rest of us so they can have "free" TV too.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Well, the fact with the exception of PBS there is virtually nothing even remotely worthwhile OTA probably has something to do with it.
> 
> Some of us also object to being forced to support the lowlife scum who run the networks, and so would avoid network programming even if were decent.
> 
> ...


your issues though, are simply not the same issues of most people. 

I also do not understand why you do not do netflix for the shows off premium channels and in that way support the network scum even less. You have a lag on watching shows but your support dollars, at least the ones you can control by directly spending, are targeted


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> How could you want it even less if you don't want it to start with? How much more would it cost with 3 tuners?
> 
> I think it is necessary. If I forget to do it, then one game is not recorded.


to go to 3 tuners - TiVo would have to completely replace the chips in use now. That would mean redoing the low level software that interacts with the chips. Likely they could not support 3 sets of (digital/analog/OTA) tuners -- in fact the TiVo would be like the Moxi -- which did indeed have dismal sales.

so to recap 
- the 3rd tuner is simply not just soldering on some more hardware and a few software tweaks.
- 3rd tuner would likely not increase sales that much
- you know the issue with your football games 
- you know how to avoid those issues.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

wireless200 said:


> I was suprised after cutting the cable - there' s a decent amount of stuff on OTA. *Every big sports game is on there.*


Totally untrue, but you probably don't care about sports all that much. I do and can't live without cable.


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## billhelm (Nov 26, 2009)

slowbiscuit said:


> Totally untrue, but you probably don't care about sports all that much. I do and can't live without cable.


And if you want to watch your local MLB, NBA or NHL team on a regular basis, you're currently SOL without cable, unless you live in a market where there's a lot of OTA games broadcast (and there aren't many of those). There's still draconian blackout rules applied to the internet alternative products for these three leagues that force you to go the cable route.

It sucks, but it's the one thing keeping me from cutting the cord.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> Tivo should be smart enough to recognize I'm recording 2 games back to back on the same channel and record the 2nd game no matter how long I extend my recording of the first game.


I reported that as a bug a few years ago, when NBC was sending TiVo guide data that would go 9-10:01/10:00-11:00 for back to back shows, causing the TiVo to allocate two tuners rather than the one that is actually necessary. If I thought NBC had the institutional smarts to do it, I would have accused them of intentionally taking advantage of a TiVo bug in order to monopolize tuners and prevent recordings of other channels. As you say, TiVo shouldn't treat shows as overlapping if they're on the same channel.


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

billhelm said:


> And if you want to watch your local MLB, NBA or NHL team on a regular basis, you're currently SOL without cable, unless you live in a market where there's a lot of OTA games broadcast (and there aren't many of those). There's still draconian blackout rules applied to the internet alternative products for these three leagues that force you to go the cable route.
> 
> It sucks, but it's the one thing keeping me from cutting the cord.


Actually I'm able to watch plenty of sports. Every Saturday - College games all day including my favorite college teams in the ACC and SEC. Yes, sometimes I have to stream my own college's games or worst case stream from the radio. Sunday, NFL all day. Great games. Every playoff game in any sport is broadcast. NASCAR is on 1st 3rd and last 3rd of the season. Yeah sure I'll cop to admitting you can get more games on cable. At $120 or more per month forget it. How much is you guy's cable bill anyway?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

billhelm said:


> And if you want to watch your local MLB, NBA or NHL team on a regular basis, you're currently SOL without cable, unless you live in a market where there's a lot of OTA games broadcast (and there aren't many of those). There's still draconian blackout rules applied to the internet alternative products for these three leagues that force you to go the cable route.
> 
> It sucks, but it's the one thing keeping me from cutting the cord.


that's the problem- if you are a fan of your local sports team that plays most of it's games on an RSN then you are hosed.

Luckily it seams the leagues see a huge potential source of revenue and are starting to experiment with in market streaming. Apparently the NBA has some trials, and the Yankees with their YES network have some babysteps (can stream if you already have cable). MLB.tv apparently figures they will price your single in market team the same as they price the whole out of market package. Their logic is most people buy the out of market package for a single team- and i suppose they are right.

If I could by the one RSN that I care about over the net I COULD drop cable.

the thing is I'd still need a phone, and I'd still need a fat pipe to stream down. The only fat pipe in my town is owned by comcast. Once i have to get raped for their internet only price- I might as well as pony up another 19.99 a month for thier unlimited VOIP. Now I'm at a point where all the cable tv i want only costs a few tens of dollars a month. So while I COULD ditch cable if i could stream my local RSN, I'm not sure it would be a huge cost savings to forgo tv- so i probably would stick with triple play if I think about it.

Will be interesting to see if at some point wimax or LTE or some 4g whatever can become the last mile of copper (coax or twisted pair) and so i can stream to my tivo over that. But that doesn't seam likely to be an economical solution since all the wireless people seem to be shooting for pay per byte for their new networks.


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> [...]
> 
> the thing is I'd still need a phone, and I'd still need a fat pipe to stream down. The only fat pipe in my town is owned by comcast. Once i have to get raped for their internet only price- I might as well as pony up another 19.99 a month for thier unlimited VOIP. Now I'm at a point where all the cable tv i want only costs a few tens of dollars a month. So while I COULD ditch cable if i could stream my local RSN, I'm not sure it would be a huge cost savings to forgo tv- so i probably would stick with triple play if I think about it.
> 
> [...]


How much are you paying if you add cable? My 8 Mbs TW cable internet is $45 a month and I used Vonage at about $25/month. I could go cheaper on Vonage by dropping it and using cell phones but I have kids plus we do a lot overseas calling. Overseas is free on Vonage.

If I added cable and DVR, no sports or movie packages is would be over $120 month more. Sure they might have some first year introductory for less but $120 year is robbery. My TW DVR alone used to be $5.95 but they've raised it to around $12 now. Add up everything you need on TW and it's crazy the amount you spend to watch TV.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> to go to 3 tuners - TiVo would have to completely replace the chips in use now. That would mean redoing the low level software that interacts with the chips. Likely they could not support 3 sets of (digital/analog/OTA) tuners -- in fact the TiVo would be like the Moxi -- which did indeed have dismal sales.
> 
> so to recap
> - the 3rd tuner is simply not just soldering on some more hardware and a few software tweaks.
> - 3rd tuner would likely not increase sales that much


True but TiVo could still offer other models with it.

They could release a 4 tuner OTA TiVo without CableCARD which past the R&D/programming cost the hardware should be a lower cost than the current 2/2/2 model. I would think there would be some interest for OTA people.

They could release a 3 tuner OTA and 1 Tuner CableCARD. They could release a 3 tuner CableCARD and 1 tuner OTA or the best of them all a 4 tuner CableCARD. 

Now for all I know they could release a 4/4/4 box since I don't know anything about what new tuner chips are in the market now since the release of the Premiere and BKDTV seems to be MIA lately.

I still think TiVo should look at offering a 4 tuner OTA model and a 4 tuner CableCARD TiVo even if they did them as a limited edition model just to see how well they sold.

Of course all of this depends on how difficult it is to code additional tuners into the mix. I still say TiVo is working on it for next year, but of course when we see it who actually knows.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> So they could sell fewer DVRs and - more importantly - fewer subscriptions? Again, why would they? Why *SHOULD* they?


Same reason Netflix went into streaming instead of standing still mailing out DVDs.

IF you don't innovate and change with the times you die.

Tivo is selling fewer DVRs and subscriptions anyway. Maybe this would have helped or will help?

Anyway it is all asterisked by the control cable companies exhibit over the set top box market.

Still Tivo could have/should have/ would have been leading the streaming box category at this point.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> In context, this doesn't make much sense. They support OTA - more substantially than any other DVR, and they support broadband services, again more substantially than any other DVR. They are marketing both. What is it you are saying they are not doing that they should?
> 
> Oh, really? Name one other DVR with more substantial broadband offerings, other than an HTPC.


I'm not talking support. I said marketing and promoting. Make the public aware of what they can do with a Tivo and OTA in conjunction with Netflix and Amazon on-demand, etc. You could even partner with those services to get the word out.

But working against such an effort is the Rokus, BR players, consoles, etc mostly do Netflix, Amazon, etc better than Tivo does it.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> True but TiVo could still offer other models with it.
> 
> They could release a 4 tuner OTA TiVo without CableCARD which past the R&D/programming cost the hardware should be a lower cost than the current 2/2/2 model. I would think there would be some interest for OTA people.


Good point. I'd go further and say a 2 tuner OTA Tivo with no cablecard in conjunction with their streaming services ( improved) would be desirable to many consumers. Maybe also support clear QAM.

You could even market it with just flash memory to further get the cost down. And let customers add their own hard drive.

Flash would give you enough space to store the OS, updates and record a program or three.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

wireless200 said:


> How much are you paying if you add cable? My 8 Mbs TW cable internet is $45 a month and I used Vonage at about $25/month. I could go cheaper on Vonage by dropping it and using cell phones but I have kids plus we do a lot overseas calling. Overseas is free on Vonage.
> 
> If I added cable and DVR, no sports or movie packages is would be over $120 month more. Sure they might have some first year introductory for less but $120 year is robbery. My TW DVR alone used to be $5.95 but they've raised it to around $12 now. Add up everything you need on TW and it's crazy the amount you spend to watch TV.


just looked it up and comcast internet here would be 45 a month for 15Mbs. I'd honestly have to think about vonage- but always just assume to be too much of the hassle factor for me- comcast phone is 45. So now I'm at 90.

I would need the local version of MLB.tv to watch my favorite baseball team all the time- the annual out of market MLB.tv price is 120 i believe and as above I've read that they would charge the same for your single local team. so 10 more a month- now I'm at 100.

So chucking in 20 more a month for a pile of channels isn't all that crazy to me. Even though we probably only watch 12-15 of them in any one given month. I dont buy cable to get disney and nickelodeon for my kids, we dont buy it for the discovery channels or nat geo for the wife and I, I dont buy it to get the 2 PBS channels I can't get without an antenna, we dont buy it for the local highschool channel that we check 6-8 times a year for inclement weather status. But getting all that sort of stuff for $20 a month doesn't seem like that bad a deal. If they weren't morons and worked with Tivo to get me the free VOD stuff on the tivo then the value proposition would be even better- they'd lock me in for sure.

If I were willing to be bothered with vonage then 40 more a month does seem like a lot- but for the time being vonage is just a bit too much or a pain in my tucus.  And I'm pretty close to being to the point of ditching landlines all together but I'm not quite there yet.

Taking the phone savings off the able- cable at the moment has a lock called bandwidth caps. I'd think that i'd nail the caps streaming everything. And if I didn't nail the caps they have today- if we all switched to streaming I'm sure they would respond (and they probably would NEED to respond to stay alive)- by fiddling with caps and/or raising prices.

So at the moment- there are some small subset- like yourself who are getting over on cable- and good for you someone should! But I dont think that it's realistic that it will stay that way for the masses cable will change to deal with the new eventuality. Cable owns the only viable pipe for many at the moment and so there's not much we can do to get away right now. Hopefully 4G changes that- but I'm just not sure.


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## DrewS3 (Sep 19, 2008)

Tivo would be doing a lot better if they:
- Made a new, pretty, HD interface.
- Fixed the broadband applications to make them at least as usable as the versions on Roku/Xbox/PS3/LG Bluray players/Squeezebox, etc.
- Added SMB/Upnp/DLNA streaming of mp3/wma/flac etc.
- Made an inexpensive way to stream to another TV.
- Improved TivoToGo to allow custom settings for higher quality video.

Then market it as the super all-in-one media streaming DVR, and a great solution for people who want to cancel their cable bill.

They sort of tried to do some of the above but they don't get much buy-in from the geeks and the trend setters because most of thier non-core features are so half-baked and clunky, like Netflix, Rhapsody, Photos, TivoToGo, MRV, and the UI. People aren't likely to recommend Tivo as a broadband box and no momentum can build.


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## DrewS3 (Sep 19, 2008)

trip1eX said:


> Still Tivo could have/should have/ would have been leading the streaming box category at this point.


Absolutely. I hate buying new boxes for my TV, expecially since the Tivo is already plugged in and turned on all the time. I now have four broadband boxes under my TV and only use the Tivo for DVR functions because it is so outclassed by the others in the broadband features.


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## burdellgp (Mar 28, 2008)

wireless200 said:


> Every playoff game in any sport is broadcast.


Nope. With cable, I can watch 162 Atlanta Braves games a year (well, 161 this year because of a schedule change pre-empted by FOX). Without it, this year I would have seen about 3 or 4 (and MLB.tv has blackout rules, so I can't watch them there). The first round (and half of the second round) of the MLB playoffs are on cable. Almost all of the college football bowl games are on cable.


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## dstoffa (Dec 14, 2005)

wireless200 said:


> Actually I'm able to watch plenty of sports. Every Saturday - College games all day including my favorite college teams in the ACC and SEC. Yes, sometimes I have to stream my own college's games or worst case stream from the radio. Sunday, NFL all day. Great games. Every playoff game in any sport is broadcast. NASCAR is on 1st 3rd and last 3rd of the season. Yeah sure I'll cop to admitting you can get more games on cable. At $120 or more per month forget it. How much is you guy's cable bill anyway?


Since when is TBS available in all markets over the air? They now air the League Division series and one League Championship Series for MLB. FOX does one LCS and the World Series.

Since when are ALL NHL Playoff games available on OTA?

Since when are ALL NBA Playoff games available on OTA?

Every playoff game in any sport is NOT broadcast OTA.

Sorry, but you need CableTV or a dish if you want to get your sports on.

Cheers!
-Doug


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## nexus99 (Oct 17, 2002)

To make Tivo more appealing to me...

1) I need a way to record more things concurrently. Either more tuners. (I have peaked out at 4 running at the same time but that is very uncommon.) Or a way to fully integrate 2 2-tuner boxes under one set of controls. I do like the Moxy format here... a box with more tuners.

2) An easy way to watch things recorded on Tivo on other devices. On TVs in other rooms, on my iPod/iPhone/iPad, etc. I like the Moxy strategy here too... a small box for the extra bedroom that can display content streamed from the main box.

3) A way to stream and watch video I have out of disk storage. I have ripped all my Blu-Rays to ISO and if the Tivo would play them I woudn't have to spend money buying a new Dune box. That money could go to Tivo.


Yes, I know this is jamming the features of multiple products into a TIVO... but that would make it really rocking cool.

Maybe if the Tivo software could run as an application on my PS3... now that would be pretty hot.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

wireless200 said:


> Every playoff game in any sport is broadcast. NASCAR is on 1st 3rd and last 3rd of the season.


Again, untrue - most of the Chase is on ESPN. Stop generalizing.

Look, we get it, you don't want to pay because you're not a big sports fan. Some of us do.


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Again, untrue - most of the Chase is on ESPN. Stop generalizing.
> 
> Look, we get it, you don't want to pay because you're not a big sports fan. Some of us do.


Nope. I had the same conversation with someone earlier this year and had checked.

Thirty six races - only eleven not on Fox or ABC. So 70% are available free more than my "generalization" of 2/3's being free.

Maybe the word you're thinking of is "rationalizing." Apply liberally to self.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> ...
> 
> So at the moment- there are some small subset- like yourself who are getting over on cable- and good for you someone should! But I dont think that it's realistic that it will stay that way for the masses cable will change to deal with the new eventuality. Cable owns the only viable pipe for many at the moment and so there's not much we can do to get away right now. Hopefully 4G changes that- but I'm just not sure.


here's a timely article about how if everyone moves to streaming then everyone's bills will go up:

Netflix is a bandwidth hog. Who will pay? (Hint: You.)


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

wireless200 said:


> Nope. I had the same conversation with someone earlier this year and had checked.
> 
> Thirty six races - only eleven not on Fox or ABC. So 70% are available free more than my "generalization" of 2/3's being free.
> 
> Maybe the word you're thinking of is "rationalizing." Apply liberally to self.


Do you always ignore your prior posts, or what? You said, 'every playoff game in any sport', which is absolutely not true for all of the major sports as has been shown in this thread.

Are you trying to deny that almost every NASCAR Chase (i.e., playoff) race was on ESPN this fall? Here's a link to the 2010 broadcasts, since you seem to be blind to the facts - 20 out of 36 races were on cable including all but one Chase race. Or that MLB playoff games were on TBS? Seriously?

Whatever, man - you go your way believing what you want to believe, the serious sports fan goes another.


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Do you always ignore your prior posts, or what? You said, 'every playoff game in any sport', which is absolutely not true for all of the major sports as has been shown in this thread.
> 
> Are you trying to deny that almost every NASCAR Chase (i.e., playoff) race was on ESPN this fall? Here's a link to the 2010 broadcasts, since you seem to be blind to the facts - 20 out of 36 races were on cable including all but one Chase race. Or that MLB playoff games were on TBS? Seriously?
> 
> Whatever, man - you go your way believing what you want to believe, the serious sports fan goes another.


The shedules I've seen show differently. http://onpitrow.com/files/2009/12/2010-sprint-cup-schedule.pdf
I'm sure I watched some of the chase races on OTA tv.
I'll cop to the fact that not every last playoff game in any sport is on free TV. The examples given in a post above, I didn't contradict - the fact is, I don't care much for NHL or NBA although games are shown on free tv.

A number of baseball playoff games were on TV expecially with the eventually WS winners the Giants. I like the Braves and saw enough games this year that I didn't feel the urge to spend $120 month for more.

I don't know your definition of the serious sports fan but the ones I consider serious don't watch every last game and mostly watch what I get for free on their paid cable. More power to 'em. Those cable prices help keep the economy going.

The main hole in free tv is ESPN which is one of main pay networks that drive the price of cable so high. I can stream espn3 so I watched some college games that way. Plus there's a couple of other streaming services for college games. You go ahead and pay the Heat's salary, I'll keep the change.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

LOL, for the $60/mo. I'm paying right now to get all of Comcast's channels in HD, I can see why the Heat are underperforming.

Your link to NASCAR 2010 is broken, but mine isn't and was 100&#37; accurate - I recorded and watched all of the races. If you want to do this, you have to pay. Sorry that you don't see this as reality, but it's true for any serious fan of most sports or teams. Some of the Braves games, using your example, are on free TV - Peachtree here in the ATL - but the majority are on Fox Sports South or SportsSouth.

A serious (diehard) fan, to me, is someone who wants to watch as many of his sport or team's games as he can. You obviously are not one, and that's ok, but don't try to tell the rest of us that we're idiots for spending the money. It's just a difference of opinion.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

There is alot of sports on OTA though. You have to acknowledge that.

Mostly during the weekend and mostly stuff that has a national audience.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

wireless200 said:


> I'm sure I watched some *only one* of the chase races on OTA tv *this season*.


Fixed your post.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

2011 NASCAR Schedule

All times ET. Dates, locations and times subject to change.

Date	Race	Track	TV Schedule
02/20/11	Daytona 500	Daytona International Speedway	FOX, TBD
02/27/11	Subway Fresh Fit 500	Phoenix International Raceway	FOX, TBD
03/06/11	TBA 400 Las Vegas Motor Speedway	FOX, TBD
03/20/11	Food City 500 Bristol Motor Speedway	FOX, TBD
03/27/11	Auto Club 500	Auto Club Speedway	FOX, TBD
04/03/11	Goody's Fast Relief 500	Martinsville Speedway	FOX, TBD
04/09/11	Samsung Mobile 500	Texas Motor Speedway	FOX, TBD
04/17/11	Aaron's 499	Talladega Superspeedway	FOX, TBD
04/30/11	Crown Royal 400	Richmond International Raceway	FOX, TBD
05/07/11	Southern 500	Darlington Raceway	FOX, TBD
05/15/11	Autism Speaks 400	Dover International Speedway	FOX, TBD
05/21/11	Sprint All Star Race	Charlotte Motor Speedway	SPEED, TBD
05/29/11	Coca-Cola 600	Charlotte Motor Speedway	FOX, TBD

06/05/11	Kansas 400 Kansas Speedway	TNT, TBD
06/12/11	Gillette 500 Pocono Raceway	TNT, TBD
06/19/11	Heluva Good! 400 Michigan International Speedway	TNT, TBD
06/26/11	Toyota/Save Mart 350 Infineon Raceway	TNT, TBD
07/02/11	Coke Zero 400 Daytona International Speedway	TNT, TBD
07/09/11	Kentucky 400	Kentucky Speedway	TNT, TBD
07/17/11	Lenox Industrial Tools 301	New Hampshire Int'l Speedway	TNT, TBD

07/31/11	Brickyard 400	Indianapolis Motor Speedway	ESPN, TBD
08/07/11	Pennsylvania 500	Pocono Raceway	ESPN, TBD
08/14/11	Heluva Good! @ The Glen Watkins Glen International	ESPN, TBD
08/21/11	CARFAX 400 Michigan International Speedway	ESPN, TBD
08/27/11	Irwin Tools Night Race Bristol Motor Speedway	ABC, TBD
09/04/11	Emory Healthcare 500	Atlanta Motor Speedway	ESPN, TBD
09/10/11	Air Guard 400 Richmond International Raceway	ABC, TBD

2011 Chase for the Sprint Cup 
09/18/11	LifeLock 400	Chicagoland Speedway	ABC, TBD
09/25/11	Sylvania 300	New Hampshire Intl Speedway	ESPN, TBD
10/02/11	AAA 400 Dover Intl Speedway	ESPN, TBD
10/09/11	Price Chopper 400 Kansas Speedway	ESPN, TBD
10/15/11	Bank of America 500 Charlotte Motor Speedway	ABC, TBD
10/23/11	AMP Energy 500	Talladega Superspeedway	ESPN, TBD
10/30/11	TUMS 500	Martinsville Speedway	ESPN, TBD
11/06/11	AAA Texas 500	Texas Motor Speedway	ESPN, TBD
11/13/11	Kobalt Tools 500 Phoenix Intl Raceway	ESPN, TBD
11/20/11	Ford 400	Homestead-Miami Speedway	ESPN, TBD


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

NASCAR's Chase for the Sprint Cup moved from ABC to ESPN this year, but TV viewers haven't followed.

Ratings for the first four Chase races in 2010 were down 27 percent compared with last year. The decline is enough of a concern that top ESPN and NASCAR executives met in Charlotte last weekend to come up with ways to reverse the trend.

It's a drop-off that has caught network and property executives off guard, and it has led them to analyze viewership patterns to pinpoint reasons for the decline.

http://www.nascar.com/2010/news/business/10/18/tv-ratings-chase-drop/index.html

although they say it is mostly due to moving the start time to 1pm EST which goes head to head with NFL games rather than due to the move to ESPN.


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> to go to 3 tuners - TiVo would have to completely replace the chips in use now. That would mean redoing the low level software that interacts with the chips. Likely they could not support 3 sets of (digital/analog/OTA) tuners -- in fact the TiVo would be like the Moxi -- which did indeed have dismal sales.
> 
> so to recap
> - the 3rd tuner is simply not just soldering on some more hardware and a few software tweaks.
> ...


Actually, if Tivo were smart they would come up with a way to utilize multi-tuner households much better than they do now. Specifically, if the season passes and their prioritization could be spread across multiple tuners in multi-Tivo houses I think this could be a nice feature. As it stands now, I have to remember to schedule stuff on my other Tivos whenever I get conflicts scheduling on my primary Tivo. Wouldn't it be nice if Tivo checked my second Tivo and let me know that there is an unused Tuner on that box? Given I have MRV, this feature would work very well in my setup and would obviate the need for Tivo to design another hardware box, with a third tuner, that I won't buy since I have 6 tuners in my house already. Tivo just needs to make it a lot easier for me to use all 6 tuners if I need them!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

exdishguy said:


> Actually, if Tivo were smart they would come up with a way to utilize multi-tuner households much better than they do now. Specifically, if the season passes and their prioritization could be spread across multiple tuners in multi-Tivo houses I think this could be a nice feature. As it stands now, I have to remember to schedule stuff on my other Tivos whenever I get conflicts scheduling on my primary Tivo. Wouldn't it be nice if Tivo checked my second Tivo and let me know that there is an unused Tuner on that box? Given I have MRV, this feature would work very well in my setup and would obviate the need for Tivo to design another hardware box, with a third tuner, that I won't buy since I have 6 tuners in my house already. Tivo just needs to make it a lot easier for me to use all 6 tuners if I need them!


I made your exact post about 3 years ago 
Problem nowadays is that copy flags can hinder MRV and make automatic coop scheduling a problem as well.

TiVo needs streaming first or for the FCC to tell cablelabs to do only hardware certifications for cable cards and drop software requirements like having to honor the nocopy flag. That and continuing to improve the premiere software should be TiVo top priorities


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

and actually the hacking community had the above software solution YEARS ago. Someone made an app that checked on every ~ :15 and :45 to see if there was a conflict at the next :30 or :00 and if it found one it asked other tivos on the network to record the conflict if they had a free tuner.

Flags have made a mess of this but it's almost shamefull they didn't include such a feature way back when the hackers showed them how to do it years ago.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> and actually the hacking community had the above software solution YEARS ago. Someone made an app that checked on every ~ :15 and :45 to see if there was a conflict at the next :30 or :00 and if it found one it asked other tivos on the network to record the conflict if they had a free tuner.
> 
> Flags have made a mess of this but it's almost shamefull they didn't include such a feature way back when the hackers showed them how to do it years ago.


I doubt the engineers told them it could not be done. This was likely a design and business decision. It is always one thing for a hacker to add some functionality and not be concerned if the interface is simple or geeky to use, and always different for a business to come up with the KISS interface that lets even people technically challenged use it.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

IIRC co-operative scheduling is covered by a ReplayTV patent.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Gregor said:


> IIRC co-operative scheduling is covered by a ReplayTV patent.


That shouldn't be a big problem for Tivo. Directv owns the replay patents. Directv licenses the Tivo patents. A little quid pro quo and they are out of excuses.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I doubt the engineers told them it could not be done. This was likely a design and business decision. It is always one thing for a hacker to add some functionality and not be concerned if the interface is simple or geeky to use, and always different for a business to come up with the KISS interface that lets even people technically challenged use it.


poor management decision yet again.

I hade seeing the UI excuses all over (not specifically to tivo, it's a common excuse). The early Tivos and apparently most of what apple does- prove that you can make a good UI. So it's doable. Management should let find good engineers and let them make good features. They should find good UI guys and let them make good UI's. And they should focuse on telling the marketing putztes how to sell the resulting product.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> poor management decision yet again.
> 
> I hade seeing the UI excuses all over (not specifically to tivo, it's a common excuse). The early Tivos and apparently most of what apple does- prove that you can make a good UI. So it's doable. Management should let find good engineers and let them make good features. They should find good UI guys and let them make good UI's. And they should focuse on telling the marketing putztes how to sell the resulting product.


I would argue that TiVo has some very good UI design folks out there. Any feature TiVo has introduced (aside from desktop which is different) my family of not tech wife and kids has been able to use without much direction from me at all. No maybe it was never UI design that held up coop scheduling, I of course have no facts about what goes on in TiVo meetings.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I would argue that TiVo has some very good UI design folks out there. Any feature TiVo has introduced (aside from desktop which is different) my family of not tech wife and kids has been able to use without much direction from me at all. No maybe it was never UI design that held up coop scheduling, I of course have no facts about what goes on in TiVo meetings.


I wouldn't argue against that- but some of the newer stuff (on the S3's) really seams cobbled in instead of designed as a whole. VOD for example is kind of broken up for example- you get some features/filters from tivobeta and others using the vod areas but neither does it all.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> ...They should find good UI guys and let them make good UI's.


that's a lot easier said than done. how do you tell a good one from a bad one during an interview?


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## mahohmei (Dec 18, 2008)

My father-in-law got a TiVo in something like 2001, and my then-fiancee got one in 2004. When I married her, I "married" the TiVo too, and the same Series2 has been our house ever since. Maybe we'll get a Premiere and HDTV via CableCARD from Comcast some day, but for now, the TiVo is IR-kludged into the Comcast cable box.

I have promised my wife that, in the hypothetical situation that TiVo goes under, I'll build us a MythTV box rather than deal with the Comcast "DVR", which was programmed by a cat sleeping on a keyboard.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> that's a lot easier said than done. how do you tell a good one from a bad one during an interview?


I dont work in HR now as a UI designer hiring manager so i couldn't tell you. 

But seriously- it's probably like supreme court porn- you know 'em when you see 'em (Or at least when you them when you see their work).

I can aim you to a lot of BAD UI designers if you want.  I'll start you with the duffus that made the UI for the sat radio/ media center/ rear seat video in my wife's mini-van. I'm thinging the cats programing cable dvr's would laugh at that one.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> But seriously- it's probably like supreme court porn- you know 'em when you see 'em (Or at least when you them when you see their work).


You can't see their work when you interview them. It belongs to the previous company and you could never verify they actually designed what you saw anyway. It's always a team effort, what and how much they contributed is never known.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

mahohmei said:


> I have promised my wife that, in the hypothetical situation that TiVo goes under, I'll build us a MythTV box rather than deal with the Comcast "DVR", which was programmed by a cat sleeping on a keyboard.


I don't think you have to worry about the next few years.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I wouldn't argue against that- but some of the newer stuff (on the S3's) really seams cobbled in instead of designed as a whole. VOD for example is kind of broken up for example- you get some features/filters from tivobeta and others using the vod areas but neither does it all.


That was the problem of legacy code that they could not easily integrate features into without rewriting a lot of the code. Kid zone was the first noticeable cobble on that was not a UI decision but simply how they could do it in the time they had to make it to market


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> You can't see their work when you interview them. It belongs to the previous company and you could never verify they actually designed what you saw anyway. It's always a team effort, what and how much they contributed is never known.


And ANYONE could lie about anything on their resume yet someone people pcik through the chaffe all day long.

Ever heard of a portfolio? It's a collection of past projects you can show someone.

- and I guess a photographer, landscaper, author, etc, etc could lie about what past work they have done too- but once you have them you will know and if they suck you fire them.

I'd assume you keep a UI house in team- or are you saying it's more the type of thing they hire them for a project and walk away? If I'm wrong then that explains it- but i just figured tivo hired some good UI folks years ago and they know what they are doing- when they are allowed to work. I supposed thinking about it- the way newer things were cobbled into the S3's - whoever started the ball all those years back is now long gone and there is no clear UI thinking going on.

anyway- there's no need to argue how hard it is to find good help- everyone has that problem. And it's not an easy answer. But if it's critical to your business you better figure out how to find the right person for that role.


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