# HR20 just whacked all the shows...



## SpiritGreyWolf (Nov 5, 2005)

I can see that I shall need to plug back in my HR10-250. In a nutshell, box got updated (apparently the new menus are better contrasted so that I can see them better), but along with that all of the recorded shows are GONE!

and of course DirecTV was as helpful as usual.

Apparently the power went out today for about an hour and came back. When the HR20 came up all the shows were gone. Nice. The rep said, "Oh, well then that must be it".

I really hate this HR20. As soon as my contract is up I'll go back to a TiVo and this time use cable cards.... <sigh>


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## fjwagner (Jan 22, 2006)

http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82

for HR20 talk


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

Thanks for the comment on the HR20, I am still holding out.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Yep, DBSTalk.

But the most likely reason is because you had a power outage it may have damaged the hard drive. On boot up it detected it and couldn't recover from the damaged sectors and thus formatted the drive in an attempt to continue to work.

Exact same thing can happen with any computer or hard drive based device (however you'd find that it just won't boot). HR20 has some recovery software so that it tries to recover. If your hard drive fries on a Mac or PC or Tivo it's just plain fried and up to you to fix it.

Not sure what you expect when you have a power outage without a UPS for protection, any hard drive can be fried.

Highly recommend you get an UPS to put all your DVRs on so that they will be protected from spikes and such.

Sorry for the problem and good luck. But it certainly isn't the fault of the HR20.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

We've had 2 instances in the last 6 months where _all_ our saved programming has been completely wiped out on the HR20.

In the many years that I've owned TiVo's we've never experienced this. Unfortunately it seems this is something more prevalent on the new DVR's, as mine isn't an isolated incident.

Sorry this happened to you.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

It's certainly an indication of a bad hard drive. When this happened to my old T-60 it just wouldn't boot up at all or would take a really long time to boot up and then it would lock up right away. On the HR20 they built in this function that if it detects a bad drive to mark the sectors as bad and format to try to recover instead of just locking up or not booting at all. Your call on what is better I guess.

In any case, if this has happened to you I would certainly call DirecTV for a replacement receiver because if the drive was bad before it still is bad and could happen again.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Doesn't sound like bad hard drive:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=92939


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Yeah, it looks like the hard drives must be going out all over the place according to that thread, huh Scott?


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Sir_winealot said:


> We've had 2 instances in the last 6 months where _all_ our saved programming has been completely wiped out on the HR20.
> 
> In the many years that I've owned TiVo's we've never experienced this. Unfortunately it seems this is something more prevalent on the new DVR's, as mine isn't an isolated incident.
> 
> Sorry this happened to you.


Yep same here on 3 HR10-250 that died. Had to send them back and lost all my shows   .


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Look, it has been explained that if the hard drive is bad it may do this. The guy says the power went out and afterwords it did this. Thus the probablity of a bad sector or two is pretty good wouldn't you say?

I'm not making any excuse, it is what it is. Power outages kill hard drives all the time and it's usually the spike when the power comes back on that does it.

Maybe there is a bug that wasn't seen by the hundreds of CE testers. Always possible. But this one smells of bad hard drive. Anyway, report it on DBSTalk, this is not the place to discuss HR20 issues in detail per the mods.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

gio1269 said:


> Yep same here on 3 HR10-250 that died. Had to send them back and lost all my shows   .


Ooookay ...not really relevant since I wasn't talking about an HR10 though.

There's a big difference between a working unit that loses programming, and a unit that died. Try to keep up, and let's work on that focus thing. 

Scott, you're probably right about the HD sector, but my unit has done this and, other than the known bugs and whatnot, has been working normally (no obvious signs of failure).


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Before I put them all on UPS's, all my TiVo based DVR's made it through multiple power outages without losing all the recorded programs.

Even since putting them on UPS's I've had to pull the power to fix lockups,
and all the programs were still there afterward.

Power outage shouldn't make you lose all your data, computer or DVR.


phox


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

phox_mulder said:


> Power outage shouldn't make you lose all your data, computer or DVR.
> 
> phox


But it does. I can't tell you how many hard drives I've replaced in my job due to power spikes. It's usually not the outage itself that can kill a hard drive (or motherboard for that matter) it's when the power comes back on. It usually is a quick "shot" and can spike well beyond the limit of many consumer electronics. It is a common thing in the computer world and even your fridge or microwave can be fried by the surge/spike.

I personally have been lucky only losing one hard drive over the past 15 years due to a power surge after an outage, but I've seen it many, many times. Always safe to have a UPS. You may never get bit by it, but why take the chance.

And let's not make this a Tivo vs. non-Tivo thing. Has nothing to do with it. If it happened to a Tivo, as I already posted, it would just not boot or would hang and crash all the time. The HR20 has a feature that instead of doing that it tries to recover the drive (which can mean the loss of recordings). So in a Tivo's case basically the drive is unusable and you lose your recordings anyway, but you need to wait for a replacement before using again. With the HR20 they went with a different approach to try to get the user back up and running again. Either way you lose recordings.

Again, just be safe and get a UPS then it shouldn't happen.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Sir_winealot said:


> We've had 2 instances in the last 6 months where _all_ our saved programming has been completely wiped out on the HR20.
> 
> In the many years that I've owned TiVo's we've never experienced this. Unfortunately it seems this is something more prevalent on the new DVR's, as mine isn't an isolated incident...


Agreed. And my experiences mirror yours.

Having a HDD die and losing those recordings is one thing. No PVR software platform can do much about that. Hardware is hardware, and hardware has a finite lifetime.

But having all content regulary and completely just disappear on a HDD that seems to otherwise not have a problem is just not something that ever happens on Tivo boxes, while there are numerous documented cases of it on HR20 and other PVRs from DTV, and also on many of the platforms used by DISH network PVRs. It probably has very little to do at all with the integrity of the HDD itself, and everything to do with cataloging routines. IOW, software.

This is one of the many things that makes Tivo comparitively much more reliable to most other PVR platforms. If you've ever lost a HDD on your personal computer, you can probably relate to how the value of that data can sometimes be tens of times more dear to you than the value of the hardware it was stored on. If you lose 100 hours of recordings of serialized dramas that you may be part-way through and already emotionally invested in, it can be just as devastating, if not more so. Since backups are impractical for such data, having a platform that minimizes that possibility is worth its weight in gold.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> let's not make this a Tivo vs. non-Tivo thing. Has nothing to do with it. If it happened to a Tivo, as I already posted, it would just not boot or would hang and crash all the time. The HR20 has a feature that instead of doing that it tries to recover the drive (which can mean the loss of recordings). So in a Tivo's case basically the drive is unusable and you lose your recordings anyway, but you need to wait for a replacement before using again. With the HR20 they went with a different approach to try to get the user back up and running again. Either way you lose recordings


Is there any reason to correct this?

If anybody _does_ believe this, please so indicate.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

SpiritGreyWolf, did your newly empty system still have your settings and coller id list?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> And let's not make this a Tivo vs. non-Tivo thing. Has nothing to do with it. If it happened to a Tivo, as I already posted, it would just not boot or would hang and crash all the time. The HR20 has a feature that instead of doing that it tries to recover the drive (which can mean the loss of recordings). So in a Tivo's case basically the drive is unusable and you lose your recordings anyway, but you need to wait for a replacement before using again. With the HR20 they went with a different approach to try to get the user back up and running again. Either way you lose recordings.





Redux said:


> Is there any reason to correct this?
> 
> If anybody _does_ believe this, please so indicate.


100% I agree with it.

You can simply look over the history of reports here on problems with hard drives on the TiVos... What is the #1 thing people tell people, when they are getting stuck at the "Welcome Screens"... hard drive gone bad.

I have had two hard drives go bad in my TiVo's, and with one case... I lost 12 episodes of SmallVille, and I have never watched the series since.... and at the time, I didn't have 5 DVRs... I had one... which means I was without my DVR until I had it fixed.

And yes, the HR20 does have a boot cycle check for issues with the hard drive, and will attempt to do it's job and recover what it can.

You will see reports of people losing just "some" recordings, not all... after a reboot. That is the result of that process.

While there is no guarantee that these reported problems of total loss, are hard drive issues... do you have another plausable explanation? to explain why it seems to be hitting people with no pattern, other then it occured during a reboot?

And given the population of just the users at DBSTalk (that have acknowledged being a part of the forum, and owning at least 1 HR20), the report volume accross all four forum boards... is EXTREMELY low...

And given that the software update for the HR20-700 has now been out for over a week, and the HR20-100 was released in the AM hours yesterday... You may see a few more posts, but you won't see a "flood" if this was some coding issue.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

phox_mulder said:


> Before I put them all on UPS's, all my TiVo based DVR's made it through multiple power outages without losing all the recorded programs.
> 
> Even since putting them on UPS's I've had to pull the power to fix lockups,
> and all the programs were still there afterward.
> ...


Umm, yes it can, it is more common place then you think. Power flucations, power drops can all damage computer hardware. have had machine restart with no issue after a power outage/brownout, have had them crash and burn. Have had machine not appear to be affected by a outage/brownout/overvoltage when it occurs but 3 or 4 weeks down the like start throwing bad sectors and corrupted files. It basicly depends on what is occurring at the time the power issue occurred as to if it will recover or crash and burn. If the power sent out when it was updated the to do list/season pass, there is a good chance that the file was left in a unknown state and the OS determined on restart that a delete and rebuild was required.

In short - dirty power can cause a lot of damage on a device, be it immediately evident or sometime down the line. APC has brought out a complete line of UPS devices that are specificly designed for Home Theatre, given their repuatation - they are not doing it for the fluff and wow factor, but because there is a need for it


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

The dbstalk link that was mentioned above seems to indicate that folks lose their recordings because of the software as much as the hardware.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> ...HR20 does have a boot cycle check for issues with the hard drive, and will attempt to do it's job and recover what it can.
> 
> You will see reports of people losing just "some" recordings, not all... after a reboot. That is the result of that process...


There is nothing all that unique about that process. Virtually every microprocessor-based device does a sanity check and HDD checks (assuming it has a HDD) during its POST routine at startup.

And there is also nothing that special about the HR20 in that regard. All Tivos are capable of much the same recovery routines, which are known as kick-start routines and are built into the operating system. The only difference is that the box doesn't blindly try to recover (and delete what it designates as corrupt files) at startup on Tivo. You have to invoke the routines using remote commands, which gives you choices as exactly which routines to run rather than the arrogance of not being able to opt out of those routines.


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## dthreet (Jan 18, 2006)

Have not had any issues on w/ my hr20 other than the light doing off the wall stuff. I dont know why people hate it so much. since the last update I have to say I like it more than my HR10's. You have the fast forward correction just like tivo and from your play list you cak just click play on the group. Plays all shows back to back from oldest to newest.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> There is nothing all that unique about that process. Virtually every microprocessor-based device does a sanity check and HDD checks (assuming it has a HDD) during its POST routine at startup.
> 
> And there is also nothing that special about the HR20 in that regard. All Tivos are capable of much the same recovery routines, which are known as kick-start routines and are built into the operating system. The only difference is that the box doesn't blindly try to recover (and delete what it designates as corrupt files) at startup on Tivo. You have to invoke the routines using remote commands, which gives you choices as exactly which routines to run rather than the arrogance of not being able to opt out of those routines.


Never said it was unique...

But then if you are having those problems on a TiVo.... you then must know those key-strokes on the remote.... or find a website to tell you how to do them...

Instead of calling a repair company or getting it sent in.

So sure... the advanced user may know about it... but as has been pointed out multiple times... the DVR+ is not built for the hard core advanced tweaker, user, or for the lack of better term... geek of DVRs.

It is built for the average joe... and if that corruption can be fixed... it is..
If it isn't, the system does what it does... re-initilizes the drive as a last resort.

At a minimum, at least they still have a functional system... while either waiting for a replacement, or it could have repaird the issue...

Neither way is perfect for all.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Never said it was unique...
> 
> ... the DVR+ is not built for the hard core advanced tweaker, user, or for the lack of better term... geek of DVRs.
> 
> It is built for the average joe...


I never said you did, but the implication was pretty obvious.

I find it comically ironic that a platform that is patently unreliable and user-hostile would be the platform considered to be designed for the average joe, while a platform that is exceptionally reliable and exceptionally user-friendly that even includes a fuzzy-logic assistant that can figure out what to record all on its own would be considered to be the one designed for DVR geeks.

On the contrary, the entire concept of Tivo is a device that is so easy to use that you don't have to comprehend all of the underpinnings to have a successful experience with it. Most other platforms are way too complicated for Grandma to even consider using. Tivo is designed for the casual viewer first, even if in serving those customers it still wows the geeks with how elegantly it does that. Everything else seems to disappoint both crowds.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> I never said you did, but the implication was pretty obvious.
> 
> I find it comically ironic that a platform that is patently unreliable and user-hostile would be the platform considered to be designed for the average joe, while a platform that is exceptionally reliable and exceptionally user-friendly that even includes a fuzzy-logic assistant that can figure out what to record all on its own would be considered to be the one designed for DVR geeks.
> 
> On the contrary, the entire concept of Tivo is a device that is so easy to use that you don't have to comprehend all of the underpinnings to have a successful experience with it. Most other platforms are way too complicated for Grandma to even consider using. Tivo is designed for the casual viewer first, even if in serving those customers it still wows the geeks with how elegantly it does that. Everything else seems to disappoint both crowds.


Then the implication, or you jaded interpretation of my words... isn't as obvious, as it was never once implicated that this is the first device to do such a thing.... All that was pointed out, was what was going on at the reboot cycle, and what could be a genuine cause for the drive to be reset.

That's it.. Period...

---------------

It is pretty funny to think of it as unreliable..
As I have the oldest one... and it is just as reliable as my HR10-250.

So it is pretty comical, that 1 year later... people still can not come to grasps that the unit is reliable... just as reliable as any other DVR... And that it may have been rough at the start... but as of today (Which really is all that matters)... the box does function... and well...

It isn't perfect, but neither is TiVo (and they had a 6 year head start).

As for user friendly... I am sorry... I have seen that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... for the last year..
The HR20/R15 are just as user friendly... they are just different, and people HATE change...

The GUI is different... sorry you have to learn something new... but everything can't be the same.

You hit list to go to your playlist..
You hit menu to open the menu...
You select Search to do a search
You go to scheduler to adjust your todo list, your prioritizer, ect....

You bring up the guide with guide (depending on your optional setting, you may have to hit it twice)...

Hit channel up to go up, you hit channel down to go down.

So yes... it is different... and you can't use your memorized key strokes you have been used to for years to get placed... but frankly... the gui is very straight forward.

The menu's say Settings, Search, Favorites....

And sorry.. if TiVo was "that easy to use".
There wouldn't be a book titled: TiVo for Dummies

There are plenty of people that still can't figure out how to use all those TiVo features... if it was that easy... This forum would not be as popular as it was in it's "hight"...

And Grandma (my mother is a Grandma)... she waited 3 weeks for me to come over, to help her get her programs back into grouping... which as you know... is a little message at the bottom of her recorded programing...

Don't confuse "comfort with something" with "ease" of use.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

There is a dummies book for just about anything.... that is worth having. 



ebonovic said:


> And sorry.. if TiVo was "that easy to use".
> There wouldn't be a book titled: TiVo for Dummies


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> if TiVo was "that easy to use".
> There wouldn't be a book titled: TiVo for Dummies


This comment pretty much sums up your role on this Tivo forum.

No, you're not here to knock Tivo.

No, you're not a DirecTV shill.

You're just here to, what is it, keep the record straight or something.

But, as many have said, it is nice to have someone around here who has "contacts" at the current DirecTV management.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Redux said:


> No, you're not a DirecTV shill.


And that comment really captures your feeling towards me...
Thanks for sharing...

Doesn't change anything though...
You are not the first to throw that word at me... and you probably won't be the last...

Doesn't make it any more untrue then it was the first time it was thrown at me.

Oh... and for why the quote was there about the dummie book... read the threads... it was in reply to the statement:

"Most other platforms are way too complicated for Grandma to even consider using"

But then again... that wasn't your point... you want to attack me the person... not the content of what was posted.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

You know, when I first read the OP I was going to post "Just wait, someone will call it a 'feature'" but figured I'd let it go. I litterally laughed out loud when I read the thread again.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

I feel sorry for those that own the HR20 and do not have access to dbstalk as an 'online manual.' Without it, our HR20 would undoubtedly be on a closet shelf.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I have friends with HR20s who do not go to dbstalk and have been working just fine. I am around if they need help but they have only asked once.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

I have 2 friends with HR20s and they don't get on Internet forums. (They got them for our HD locals since neither wants to put up an antenna for OTA). Both got them last fall.

First friend had no troubles at all other then crashing and lockups. He thought it was crap. I helped him troubleshoot the problem was only with our one local CBS HD local. It was *terrible* when our market first launched. Had him just record the SD version for 2 weeks and he had nary a problem. Shortly after they upgraded the MPEG4 encoders in our market that took care of the problem. He hasn't had a problem since and while he said he missed DLB at first, being able to record 90% of their shows in HD far outweighed that.

The other friend hated the HR20 at first. Not because of any technical problems, he just didn't like the GUI and he really missed DLBs. I saw him again about 4 months later and he admitted that he got used to the GUI and actually likes it better now because of it's speed. He still missed DLBs but was willing to give that up for being able to record our HD locals and for getting MLB in HD. Now he's really excited with the new channels coming.

Notice the trend that content is king. But that's just a sample of 2 friends.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> Notice the trend that content is king. But that's just a sample of 2 friends.


I don't have any friends, so I can't comment in that regard. But I don't for a _second _ believe that those who have simply had an HR20 hooked up without some sort of subsequent help from somewhere, have had a 'pleasant' viewing experience.

Many of the "Tips & Tricks" and workarounds aren't something easily figured out.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> I don't have any friends, so I can't comment in that regard. But I don't for a _second _ believe that those who have simply had an HR20 hooked up without some sort of subsequent help from somewhere, have had a 'pleasant' viewing experience.
> 
> Many of the "Tips & Tricks" and workarounds aren't something easily figured out.


Can I be your friend? 

As your friend I'd like to remind you that people can be their own worst enemy. Within the first two pages of the HR20 user manual is a description of the remote that describes the keys and offers usage hints. The HR20 has been out for a year and people are still happy but surprised to learn that pressing DASH twice on the remote will delete a program from the Playlist. Yet it's been in their user manual the entire time. If people just took the time to read the manual, they'd learn a LOT of tips and tricks about their DVR.

As to Tips & Tricks shared online, well, as your friend I'd like to point out that this TiVo user (me) would never have known a lot of tricks for using the HR10 if not for THIS forum. For example ...

MENU+1 = Season Pass Mgr.
MENU+2 = To Do List
MENU+3 = Wish Lists
etc.

SPS30S = 30 second sskip
SPS[pause]S = Fast Toggle Progress Bar

Changing the remote code. Yes, it's in the manual .... but I didn't read that part.

The moral? RIF.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Sir_winealot said:


> I don't have any friends, so I can't comment in that regard. But I don't for a _second _ believe that those who have simply had an HR20 hooked up without some sort of subsequent help from somewhere, have had a 'pleasant' viewing experience.
> 
> Many of the "Tips & Tricks" and workarounds aren't something easily figured out.


Why? Most users of ANY device don't know the Tips and Tricks. I learned TONS of stuff about the Tivos here that I wouldn't know otherwise. They made my experience with Tivo better but, as with the HR20, I could easily use the box without them. In fact, I have learned very little about the HR20's tricks from the forum. I use the GUI mostly as it was clearly defined.

All my friends that got an HR20 had a quick review/walk thru and have had next to no issues since. One friend had a Tivo and had issues learning the new system but those who had no DVRs had zero problems at all. That tells me that unlearning is harder than learning. No surprise as I work with software updates all the time at my job and new things are easier for folks to learn than are changes.

BTW, taking your feelings about something and generalizing them to everyone is called "projecting."


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> BTW, taking your feelings about something and generalizing them to everyone is called "projecting."


It's my _opinion_ based on _my experience _ with the almighty HR20; it has absolutely nothing to do with my "feelings."

I apologize for not making that crystal clear by stating it as such with an "IMO," but I thought it was fairly obvious when stating things such as "Without it (dbstalk), _our_ HR20 would undoubtedly be on a closet shelf" as I did in my original post.

So I'll be more precise in expressing my opinions just as to avoid confusion in the future.

My opinion.  

And Drew ...thank you for being my friend. That's 1.....


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

> Notice the trend that content is king. But that's just a sample of 2 friends.


Of course that's true. And when there is only one product in the market, what are people going to do - use that product if they want the service.  But if, you ask them are they happy with that choice, the polls show that less than half think the HR20 is a good product.  So, no wonder that DirecTV's ratings have gone down.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Sir_winealot said:


> It's my _opinion_ based on _my experience _ with the almighty HR20; it has absolutely nothing to do with my "feelings."


Guess you missed the part where you decided what OTHERS did or did not do.

Your OPINION overrides FACTS?

I will give you credit. You live up to your name.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Guess you missed the part where you decided what OTHERS did or did not do.
> 
> Your OPINION overrides FACTS?


Er...guess I did ...could you kindly point it out to me? --I decided what "OTHERS did or did not do?" Are we in the same conversation here or have you wandered off?

What "FACTS" do you speak of? Please enlighten us as I think you are confusing FACTS with anecdotal evidence.

Link please. 



TonyD79 said:


> I will give you credit. You live up to your name.


Ouch. Cut to the bone.  
_Almost_ clever ...but indeed I do. In FACT, I'm enjoying a fine Chardonnay as I post ('hic').


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