# TiVo to return to the UK



## [email protected]

I was at the Broadcast Digital Channels conference yesterday and it was announced TiVo is to return to the UK via Freeview. There will be a DTT PVR with TiVo technology built in. No more details were announced. It will launch this year though. The announcement was made by technology company Decipher.

I got excited anyway!


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## andyjenkins

Interesting. My daughter will be pleased 

Shame if they would miss the Sky market though, but not all of us need or want dual tuners (with the advent of +1 channels). I can understand them skipping these subscribers - as to provide a dual tuner box would require customers to get a dual LNB - and lets be honest, how many would? And I can't see Sky+ subscribers buying a TiVo to replace their Sky+ boxes either. Still would have been nice to get a new box for the living room though.


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## davisa

A freeview TiVo for the UK is excellent news - welcome back TiVo! While not exactly what I'd want (I'm on Cable) I'm probably not the target audience anyway. I hope it will have an external source input - but I assume it won't. Probably get one anyway though!


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## George

Sounds very good news, however I have to say I'll believe it when I see it (or when Gary confirms it


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## fister

I'd be happy if TiVoPony confirmed it also ;-)


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## GarySargent

I've not heard anything.


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## kitschcamp

Well, now you've defected to the dark side...


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## AENG

TiVoWho?


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## bignoise

Decipher isn't a technology company, they're "digital media consultants" who spend lots of time coming up with papers about what they think is happening in the market and how advertisers/broadcasters could react to it.


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## TimmyRaa

As a long-time user of TiVo, I sold it last year in favour of a Freeview PVR. I may have paid £200 for it, but I'd still be tempted by a Freeview TiVo! I'm amazed TiVo didn't license the technology to someone like Topfield or Humax, for use in one of their PVRs. I'm sure this is covered somewhere else on the forums here though!


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## Tony Hoyle

If there's a freeview Tivo sign me up!

OTOH this sounds more like speculation than an actual deal - if Tivo had signed a deal like that they'd have announced it themselves.


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## yaffle

I'd love a new TiVo, but a freeview one is pretty useless to me until they extend coverage to my part of London


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## TimmyRaa

What part of London could possibly be out of the coverage for Freeview? The underground??


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## Bob The Skutter

If this is true sign me up too, I'm just experimenting with building a Media Centre PC but I'd rather have a new Tivo.


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## TheBear

I think they are possibly making a mistake.

Imagine joe public in Currys (Or whatever) and the salesman says: "You can have this Hingfungo freeview PVR for £129.99, subscription free...or you can have this TiVo freeview PVR for the same price but you'll need to pay £10 per month to use all the features".

Which one will the public buy?

Sure, people have heard of TiVo but will they be willing to pay a subscription?

TiVo need to bring out a PVR that is unique and can therefore justify the inevitable subscription.


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## fister

TiVo service will revert to TiVo basic after 30 days unless you pay £10 pm I suppose. 
I seem to recall that Humax were on this site a while ago asking about TiVo and what we thought of it. I think they then went and did their own DVR


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## andyjenkins

TheBear said:


> TiVo need to bring out a PVR that is unique and can therefore justify the inevitable subscription.


But TiVo *is* unique. As far as I'm concerned, and I guess 100's (1000's?) of others are concerned, there's no PVR on the market today thats worthy of replacing my 5 year old+ TiVo.

Does'nt that tell you something about TiVo ?

My car's last a lesser time than my TiVo does. Heck - my women last lesser time !!!


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## aerialplug

If this is true (and I really hope it is), I also hope they include the functionality to record from a second set top box via a scart and IR dongle, like the current model does.

A dream TiVo for me would be one with a built in 2 tuner freeview reciever and the ability to record off Sky only if the channel isn't available on the internal tuners.

Analogue UHF would be a waste of resources since it would have a limited shelf life as almost all regions will have switched off analogue by 2012.

My series 1 TiVo's lasted longer than analogue's got left!


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## Stradlingp

TheBear said:


> Imagine joe public in Currys (Or whatever) and the salesman says: "You can have this Hingfungo freeview PVR for £129.99, subscription free...or you can have this TiVo freeview PVR for the same price but you'll need to pay £10 per month to use all the features".


Without an 'official' announcement this is all hypothetical of course but....

perhaps they will use the same strategies as in the USA. i.e.

virtually give the hardware away but tie the consumer in for a year. It works for mobile phones.

or give the service away for a period of time and then hook the junkie (I mean consumer) by taking away their Tivo service which they can no longer live without :up:

Whatever happens (and hopefully this rumour is true!), TiVo will have to be much better at marketing this time round.

Ironically, the existence of Sky+ may help to educate the masses.


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## mrtickle

They'll have to improve the guide data considerably before re-launching IMHO. The data is the cornerstone to how well TiVo works. Orphaned season passes are NOT funny; and when new customers suddenly discover their favourite programme hasn't been recorded for no obvious reason they'll want answers.
At the moment with so few problems being reported, you'd think Tribune and TiVo would mop them up and fix them quickly. If anything I'm finding it harder getting data fixed than it used to be :-(


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## Pugwash

Stradlingp said:


> Ironically, the existence of Sky+ may help to educate the masses.


I emailed T3 magazine last month when they put Sky+ in their hall of fame.  Pointed out the TiVo was there first. :up:


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## andyjenkins

mrtickle said:


> They'll have to improve the guide data considerably


I thought about this too, but queried if they would have too? Surely they could work off the 4TV EPG ? That would be one less headache they would have to live with, the consumer would understand it better (ie not having to have a second EPG source), and could potentially even loose the remit for the monthly subscription model that could spoil this whole game plan.

Saying that, even 4tv has its limited (nightly download etc etc) so it would still not catch late ammendments to programming schedule.


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## steveroe

I don't know the details of what 4TV offer, but unless it includes the metadata that powers TiVo (OAD, episode ids) then it would still need to be enhanced (this is what we pay the sub for).


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## cwaring

So this 4TV service, which I've actually never heard of by the way, is 100% accurate 100% of the time is it?  (Plus steve's point )


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## mrtickle

I've used a DigiFusion DVR for a while (now relaunched as Sony SVR-S500, but made by Beko in Turkey. Instantly screams "not Sony build quality" so beware). It used that data. You get start/stop times, date and a synopsis. Genre too maybe.

SPs wouldn't work properly without a unique Episode ID for each episode*; FRO needs an OAD for each episode, but more importantly Suggestions need the genres and actors. As it is one of the biggest selling points of the Tivo service there is no way they could use anything other than Tribune data at the moment.

* we take it for granted now but the 1.5.2 software used before Easter 2002 didn't have the 28-day rule. Tons of duplicates everywhere, many needlessly stopped other programmes being recorded; a nightmare compared to these days!


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## Mark Bennett

Freeview is not available in my area either - and probably never will be 
I'm lead to believe the radar installations around Farnborough totally screw the signal. (Analogue TV is no good either - everyone here either has NT-HeLL or $ky...)


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## iankb

I think that it's fairly obvious that TiVo cut the payment to Tribune as an economy measure that would enable to the UK service to continue. I think that they would be stupid not to improve the service if they wanted to start expanding the UK customer base.

As to marketing it correctly, Sky have done most of the work for them. Forget the "Press pause and make a cup of tea" approach. All they need to say now is "It's like Sky+ but's much, much, better". However, maybe they shouldn't get Sky to do the marketing this time round.


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## 6022tivo

I don't have any issues with the Media Centre EPG I get for free.

It works very well for season passes and works well if I allow it to record a series that may have repeats on a different channel in case of a conflict. (i.e. set a CH4 series to record and it will record an episode from E4 if the Ch4 one conflicts)... I don't think TiVo can do this?, can it??

Who does/provides the Media Centre EPG??


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## ndunlavey

Something annoying about the PVRs that use the 4TV data is that you're shagged if you can't receive the multiplex that 4TV is on.


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## peteypete

I don't live in the UK, but what's freeview, and how do you think the tivo interface would be integrated into freeview set top boxes?

Also, how many boxes are out there? And do they have a broadband connection too?


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## cwaring

www.freeview.co.uk Basically, it's a digital replacement for the current analogue terrestrial service. No, they aren't broadband-connected. EPG data is received over-the-air.


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## AENG

I get my EPG data via a telephone line, AFAIK. Or are you referring to something completely different?


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## AENG

Oops! Spoke too soon. You're outside the strictly TiVo regime, of course.


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## iankb

We know that TiVo want to come back into this country, and were seen at a UK exhibition a year or so ago with the obvious intention of finding a manufacturer. However, this thread may be speculation based upon that knowledge, rather than based upon a firm agreement between TiVo and a volume manufacturer.

As I perceive it, manufacturers have either been reluctant to accept TiVo's terms, or have not been able to manufacture, finance or market the sort of volumes that TiVo would expect before they committed themselves to longer-term support.

If it is a genuinely accurate piece of news (and I really hope that it is), it seems a strange way to release it.


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## terryeden

While Decipher have a long history of reporting on TiVo - http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tivo+site:www.decipher.co.uk
I can't see anything on their site. http://www.decipher.co.uk

So, I'll say the same thing I say every month, "I'll keep paying my monthly sub... the second I go lifetime they'll release a new box..."


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## terryeden

Sorry to put a downer on everyone - but I just called Decipher. While they are monitoring what TiVo are doing in the US, they have absolutley no news about any UK activities.

I suspect that someone was talking about the new Freeview PVR scheme and its possible implications for TiVo which got translated to "new box coming out soon".

I'd love it to be true - but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Of course - the guys at Decipher could have been bs'ing me..... 

T


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## Anndra

terryeden said:


> ...So, I'll say the same thing I say every month, "I'll keep paying my monthly sub... the second I go lifetime they'll release a new box..."


Terry. Please go lifetime.


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## Glen

Well if it is true then i'm very disappointed that they wont release one for use with Sky! Glad i got a lifetime as it looks as if i'll be with my current TiVo for years to come!


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## ndunlavey

Freeview is the FTA digital terrestrial service.

http://www.freeview.co.uk/


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## mrtickle

6022tivo said:


> I don't have any issues with the Media Centre EPG I get for free.
> 
> It works very well for season passes and works well if I allow it to record a series that may have repeats on a different channel in case of a conflict. (i.e. set a CH4 series to record and it will record an episode from E4 if the Ch4 one conflicts)... I don't think TiVo can do this?, can it??


It certainly can (surprised you didn't know!). Either have a Wishlist, or an E4 SP as well as a C4 SP.



> Who does/provides the Media Centre EPG??


Tribune - which is why it works in Media Centre as well as TiVo; their listings have the rich metadata to make this sort of functionality possible.


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## BillyT2002

I wonder if this move will influence Sky to re-think their own position with TIVO for both the U.K. Sky television and U.S.A. DirecTV markets? I sure hope so. Rupert, it's high time that you admit that alienating your business from TIVO in favor of substituting it with your own, proprietary technology is a HUGE mistake. It's also time to bring TIVO back into the fold.


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## TimmyRaa

BillyT2002 said:


> I wonder if this move will influence Sky to re-think their own position with TIVO for both the U.K. Sky television and U.S.A. DirecTV markets? I sure hope so. Rupert, it's high time that you admit that alienating your business from TIVO in favor of substituting it with your own, proprietary technology is a HUGE mistake. It's also time to bring TIVO back into the fold.


But Sky+ seems to be very successful, from what I've read. And so what if it's proprietary technology? So is TiVo - it's closed, and licensed to prevent usage anywhere other than in TiVo boxes.

I'm speaking as someone who had a TiVo, and was disgusted myself with Sky for helping market it, and then bring out a competitive product themselves. That said though, it has worked for them.


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## Peter We

I was in a TV focus group today. The interviewer was showing use a US Tivo for the advertising interface. He mentioned that Tivo were coming back to the Uk becuase Sky's marketing deal had expired, so Tivo can sell it here again.


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## BillyT2002

Hey, we all have our preferences. I'm still hoping this forces Sky's hand. I've seen and used the R15 which is based on the Sky+ DVR and I'm not impressed.


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## GarySargent

Just to remind everyone... it is HIGHLY unlikely any of these rumours are true. Whilst it would be nice, lets not get carried away. If I was a betting man I'd bet this is a load of rubbish.


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## kitschcamp

Just to ensure it doesn't get lost...

From http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=303090



GarySargent said:


> If it has TiVo inside I'll eat MrTickles hat. I'll close this thread as we already have one bogus rumour thread here http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...ad.php?t=302898


pdf made, just in case!


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## iankb

Before getting too carried away, has MrTickle actually agreed to letting Gary eat his hat.


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## mrtickle

He agrees  (for the **** up TV rumour)
If the Decipher rumour is true then I'm keeping it!


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## TheBear

andyjenkins said:


> But TiVo *is* unique.


I know that. You know that.

However, will a Currys sales droid be able to get that over to Joe Public and will Joe public appreciate that it's worth paying a subscription for?

Joe Public is likely to question paying for a TiVo EPG when the likes of 4TV do an EPG for free.


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## TheBear

Peter We said:


> He mentioned that Tivo were coming back to the Uk becuase Sky's marketing deal had expired, so Tivo can sell it here again.


That's a possibilty. Maybe TiVo have been unable to release a new UK model due to contractural reasons?

Sky: "Here's lots of dosh, TiVo, all you gotta do is sign this bit of paper. Don't worry about the small print. We want to work with you on this, honest".

TiVo: "OK"

Sky: "Tee hee!"


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## cwaring

Uncle Rupy would never do anything like that though, would he?


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## pgogborn

Well at least Thomson is bring out a new PVR for the half baked Top Up TV "Video on Demand" service. 









Available this Autumn


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## cleudo

TheBear said:


> Joe Public is likely to question paying for a TiVo EPG when the likes of 4TV do an EPG for free.


Yep. No way would TiVo get away with a £10 a month sub for an epg nowadays.

Maybe the answer would be for them to sell banner advertising on the various Tivo Menus and interactive links within progs (which would be clever if you could store the interactive content on the tivo along with the clip).


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## cwaring

cleudo said:


> Yep. No way would TiVo get away with a £10 a month sub for an epg nowadays.


Then again, the Tivo EPG is a lot more than x programme on y channel at z time. It's all the meta-data behind it that's the 'clever bit'; which is what you're paying for. Maybe


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## GarySargent

cleudo said:


> Yep. No way would TiVo get away with a £10 a month sub for an epg nowadays.


Not sure how you come to that conclusion. Sky get away with it for Sky+ unless you take out one of their top tier packages, and there is no lifetime option.


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## cleudo

GarySargent said:


> Not sure how you come to that conclusion. Sky get away with it for Sky+ unless you take out one of their top tier packages, and there is no lifetime option.


Sky have everyone over a barrell - they kill the pvr functionality if you don't pay the £10 (if you don't have the premium channels).

I would like to see how many people actually pay Sky £10 a month for it.


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## BillyT2002

Why won't old Rupey die already anyway? He's as old as the hills. What keeps that geezer going?


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## GarySargent

Maybe many don't pay £10 per month. I don't I upgraded my package. As a reult I pay Sky even more than £10 per month extra! Who wins?!


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## sanderton

Very few pay the extra £10. The majority (about 2/3 IIRC) of *all * Sky subscribers fulfill the "getting it free" criteria, and I would think among people with a Sky+ box they would be even more likely to have a qualifying package.


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## cleudo

OK, but all that reinforces my point. 

Who amongst the tivo-unknowing general British public would buy a Tivo pvr now at a cost of £10 a month.

Either: a) £10 on top of a Sky sub, making the overall cost quite a lot or
b) £10 on top of a freeview box, which isn't a lot but goes against the general 'freeview' mentality...

So, I dont thing a monthly sub is a valid business model, & if they tried it, they'd fail in the UK again.

Getting money out of advertisers is a much more likely proposition, & Tivo would be ideally placed for that with a bit of clever programming...

With the continuing growth of PVRs, the whole advertising model goes down the drain. You can't force the populace to watch 3 and a half minutes of comms every 12 minutes or so in primetime. Instead, you have to be able to use the pvr platform to deliver comms in it's own right.

Instead of the current real-time red dot interactive advertising, you could have a Tivo platform offering time-shifted interactive advertising loading a browser straight onto the manufacturers website.

The potential is absolutely huge...


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## blindlemon

cleudo said:


> So, I dont thing a monthly sub is a valid business model, & if they tried it, they'd fail in the UK again.


We're back to the same old debate based on the existing buisness model.

If you look at what TiVo are doing in the US these days, they're giving the boxes away for free if you buy a service package, either upfont or monthly. If you buy 3 years upfront the cost 'per month' over that period is very low and there's no box to buy. The current US prices converted roughly to £ (rounding in TiVo's favour) are :-

* £9.75/month or £270 prepaid with 3-year commitment
* £10.91/month or £212 prepaid with 2-year commitment
* £11.49/month or £129 prepaid with 1-year commitment

£129 for an 80gb TiVo with all the funky Series 2 features and a year of free service, or £270 for the same machine with 3 years service. That's equivalent to *£7.75/month including a free box* if you sign up for 3 years and prepay.


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## Jo.Cassady

People, please don't post rumours/stories unless you have a link to back it up. Moderators : please dit the title and prefix the title with 'Rumour" in front of it


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## NCG_Mike

BillyT2002 said:


> Why won't old Rupey die already anyway? He's as old as the hills. What keeps that geezer going?


The transfused blood of young people... Excellent!


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## cleudo

blindlemon said:


> We're back to the same old debate based on the existing buisness model.
> 
> If you look at what TiVo are doing in the US these days, they're giving the boxes away for free if you buy a service package, either upfont or monthly.


That would be quite favourable if it launched here - however, it's got a whiff of desperation about it.

Tivo haven't actually posted a profit in any year since they were founded in 1997. How can they keep that going?? [source - ft.com]


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## ndunlavey

It's what happens with mobile phones.


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## Richardr

The original TIVO model was very similar to the mobile phone model in this country, i.e. the initial hardware was subsidised by at least part of the monthly payment.

Given that the market for Sky and ntl / Telewest PVRs will be dominated by the platform owners own boxes, that leaves Freeview - which will be the most popular platform in the long run.

However, given that hard disc freeview recorders are available for not much more than £100, can TIVO compete in this market? 

The higher spenders to me will tend to be in the satellite or cable market, and freeview will be the lower end.


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## Tony Hoyle

Tivo can easily compete - they're not trying to produce a generic freeview box but something completely different. There is nothing even close to Tivo in the market at the moment except Sky+ (which isn't even as good, and costs £299 + £120 a year).

OTOH it seems Tivo are struggling enough in their own market and the chances of them coming back to the UK seem pretty nonexistant at the moment.


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## blindlemon

Why? They've recently started selling boxes in Taiwan for the first time; they've just won a big patent case against Echostar/NDS in the US; the new pricing model is very attractive...

The UK Freeview market is wide-open due to the fact that NONE of the existing machines are any good and the take-up of Freeview here is roaring ahead with ever-increasing pace. Sure, you can get a cheap Freeview DVR for under £100, but it will be flaky, bug-ridden and have hardly better functionality than a VCR. Even the "better" Freeview DVRs like the Topfield and Fusion are still bug-ridden and limited in their usefulness compared to a TiVo - and they cost quite a lot more than £100.

If TiVo re-enter with an 80gb twin-tuner Freeview machine for £129 with a year's free service they will clean up. Period :up:


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## worm

As long as they retain the Linux OS.

The hackability is a big plus in my book (although it's not a deal breaker)


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## iankb

worm said:


> As long as they retain the Linux OS.


They'll retain the Linux OS, because it's efficient, cost-effective, and they have invested a lot in the dependent developments. However, don't expect the Series 3, etc, to be as open to hacking as the Series 1, anymore than the current Series 2 is.


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## cwaring

Don't the Series 2/3 have all (or at least 'a lot') of the functionality built-in that the hacks currently provide anyway? (Genuine question. I don't have a clue )


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## blindlemon

Yes they do, and in some cases more


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## AENG

blindlemon said:


> NONE of the existing machines are any good
> and Sure, you can get a cheap Freeview DVR for under £100, but it will be flaky, bug-ridden and have hardly better functionality than a VCR. Even the "better" Freeview DVRs like the Topfield and Fusion are still bug-ridden and limited in their usefulness compared to a TiVo - and they cost quite a lot more than £100.
> 
> If TiVo re-enter with an 80gb twin-tuner Freeview machine for £129 with a year's free service they will clean up. Period :up:


I really do hope that blindlemon is right in his prediction. But will Joe Public ever understand the facts?

Alan


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## badboyzx6r

can you believe this?

MOD EDIT: Links to ads and auctions are not allowed!


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## katman

badboyzx6r said:


> can you believe this?


"ITEM RETAILS FOR $500.00 "

That line set the alarm bell ringing and a quick google for "Humax Tivo" turned up

http://www.humaxusa.com/products_DRT800_80.html

Quick look through the specs confirms that it is an NTSC device

"Content Sources 
Integrated NTSC / Analog Cable Tuner 
External Cable and/or Satellite Set-top Box "

Seller has several on offer direct from China but I suspect any UK bidder will be sadly disappointed. Would be VERY nice if a PAL version was planned for the UK/Europe though


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## coderus

iankb said:


> We know that TiVo want to come back into this country, and were seen at a UK exhibition a year or so ago with the obvious intention of finding a manufacturer. However, this thread may be speculation based upon that knowledge, rather than based upon a firm agreement between TiVo and a volume manufacturer.
> 
> As I perceive it, manufacturers have either been reluctant to accept TiVo's terms, or have not been able to manufacture, finance or market the sort of volumes that TiVo would expect before they committed themselves to longer-term support.


 I'm wondering why don't TiVo just build a universal TiVo model which would be good for all markets, as alot of electronic gadgets seem to deal with varying power voltages (110-240), NTSC or PAL ..etc. Ok I guess simplistic but would then be easy for all to get their hand on their hardware. This would then also remove the need to have a specific manufactor for a region.

I hope too one day we see TiVo back in the UK for a Series3. I hope Sky cann't stop them.


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## iankb

coderus said:


> I'm wondering why don't TiVo just build a universal TiVo model which would be good for all markets ...


TiVo don't, and don't want to, do any manufacturing. They just want to license their design to manufacturers, and sell their service to the end-user. Their problem seems to be finding a manufacturer who will create and market a model for them in this country.


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## hustler

iankb said:


> TiVo don't, and don't want to, do any manufacturing. They just want to license their design to manufacturers, and sell their service to the end-user. Their problem seems to be finding a manufacturer who will create and market a model for them in this country.


I don't believe that for a second. As I mentioned before, the US companies who make TiVo boxes also have UK operations. The R & D has already been done on those S2 boxes.
Here we have TiVo giving away S2 units for free, when those very same units could be easily modded by the manufacturer for a UK market, and then sold at say, £249.
Every current UK TiVo subber would snap those up in an instant.

Which is the better business model for manufacturers....giving away the box for free or charging for the box? I believe that the only stumbling block to TiVo re-launching in the UK is TiVo themselves. Who presumably don't want to invest in the upgrading of the software, finding office space and employing TiVo staff.

/steps off soapbox. 

Just noticed on digg, that the S3 info is up.

http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr.asp

I've mischeviously put my name on the mailing list.


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## terryeden

coderus said:


> I'm wondering why don't TiVo just build a universal TiVo model which would be good for all markets, as alot of electronic gadgets seem to deal with varying power voltages (110-240), NTSC or PAL ..etc.


Aside from the fact that TiVo don't make the hardware - there's the issue of different TV standards.

Series 1 TiVos had to have a specific PAL chip or NTSC chip. Differnt regions use different frequencies for broadcast. Not every area uses Scart or S-video. DTT can use a wide variety of codecs. Phone lines are different throughout the world.

The power issue is trivial to fix - take a look a PCs. It's the broadcast specific stuff that's the problem.


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## iankb

hustler said:


> I don't believe that for a second.


Everyone's welcome to his view, but I doubt that TiVo would have been at a trade exhibition in this country if they weren't looking to re-open a service here. I do suspect that the biggest stumbling blocks are the licence costs to the manufacturer, the end-user service cost which affects its marketability, who pays for the marketing, and the ability of the manufacturer to support the volume production and long-term commitment that would justify the costs of a new UK operation.

They've always said that the technical differences between the two services would be relatively-easy to overcome.


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## Nebulous

Presumably, Tivo have some sort of hardware reference design on which they developed their software. Why don't they just release this design into the public domain. That way any enterprising company (or person) could take up the challenge and manufacture the units. Tivo could then just sell software packages in the same way that microsoft sell Windows. I can go out and buy a blank computer and a copy of Windows and I'm up and running in no time, or I can buy one with it pre-installed. There's no real reason that I can see, why Tivo couldn't be the same, except that Tivo not only get a sale for the software but subscription fees too.


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## Richardr

Don't forget that TIVO own a lot of patents, and one part of their business is enforcing them - see the current court action with Echostar in the US. They look likely to end up getting some quite large royalties as a minimum, and this could apply to a number of other PVR manufacturers / platforms out there.

Could they put the TIVO reference hardware design into the public domain without losing this revenue?


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## Mike B

Couldn't they simply allow use of the reference design by hardware manufacturers under some form of strict NDA (non-disclosure-agreement) ?


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## Nebulous

Richardr said:


> Don't forget that TIVO own a lot of patents...
> ...Could they put the TIVO reference hardware design into the public domain without losing this revenue?


I haven't studied any of Tivos patents, but I would doubt that any of them are for hardware. Their core business is software and subscription services and I assume this is where they would have applied their patents.
However, I'm sure someone will be along shortly with evidence to the contrary


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## Nebulous

...in fact, come to think of it, why don't they release Tivo as a software package, for PC's running linux. Tivo is written in linux anyway isn't it? There are PCI video and freeview cards available for use with Windows mce that could be utilised for such a scheme.


----------



## hustler

iankb said:


> Everyone's welcome to his view, but I doubt that TiVo would have been at a trade exhibition in this country if they weren't looking to re-open a service here.


What year was this? 
ISTR, TiVo have always used the 'we are actively seeking partners for UK a re-launch' or words to that effect. I think that line is getting a little threadbare. Before re-launching in the UK...I think TiVo would require a few basic essentials such as premises and staff. Do you know the phone number of the TiVo UK HQ?? BTW, I don't think the Sky building in Livingston counts.

Anyways, I think before launching any new hardware, TiVo should update and bugfix the prehistoric 2.5.5. software. One update in four years is really not reasonable support. My £20 Pioneer DVD-R drive has had three updates to fix bugs and add new features, within the last 18 months.

 Sad smiley for the lack of TiVo support.


----------



## katman

hustler said:


> Anyways, I think before launching any new hardware, TiVo should update and bugfix the prehistoric 2.5.5. software. One update in four years is really not reasonable support. My £20 Pioneer DVD-R drive has had three updates to fix bugs and add new features, within the last 18 months.
> 
> Sad smiley for the lack of TiVo support.


My SKY+ box has had a couple of Firmware updates since I got it last November and still locks up or plays with no audio if I fast forward into the program.

My Tivo just works..... and works.... and works. I dont know what bugs you are refering to but I personally am not having any problems with my unmodded TiVo.


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## cwaring

I was just going to ask to which "bugs" hustler was referring as I haven't come across any on my Tivo recently (ie since I've owned it )


----------



## iankb

I think that hustler is under the impression that bugs and additional functionality are synonymous, and that TiVo can magically download the additional hardware resources that would be required to make a Series 1 into a Series 2.

To me, the Series 1 TiVo is far more reliable, functional and user-upgradeable than any other PVR/DVR that I've heard of to date, so why would anybody want to change it. I would almost certainly upgrade to a Series 2 or 3 if it were available, but I see no reason for them to alter the Series 1, especially if that removed some of the ability to hack it.


----------



## hustler

iankb said:


> I think that hustler is under the impression that bugs and additional functionality are synonymous, and that TiVo can magically download the additional hardware resources that would be required to make a Series 1 into a Series 2.


Where did I say that? I never suggested that a software update can turn a S1 box into a S2.



> To me, the Series 1 TiVo is far more reliable, functional and user-upgradeable than any other PVR/DVR that I've heard of to date, so why would anybody want to change it. I would almost certainly upgrade to a Series 2 or 3 if it were available, but I see no reason for them to alter the Series 1, especially if that removed some of the ability to hack it.


As I run a vanilla box, why should I care about you if you lose your hacks. When you hack the box, you accept that risk that perhaps an official upgrade will render your 3rd party hacks useless.

iankb, you still haven't answered my question. What year were TiVo at a show looking for partnerships for a UK launch?

TiVo bugs? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk/

It seems the 'regulars' are oblivious to these bugs and are not affected by them, so they should remain unfixed. I've been affected by a couple of them...so pardon me for wanting a better product.


----------



## iankb

hustler said:


> iankb, you still haven't answered my question. What year were TiVo at a show looking for partnerships for a UK launch?


I'm not in the trade, but if you searched on this forum you would find comments from people who are that TiVo have been seen in various trade shows in UK and Europe. While its obvious that nothing has happened, it doesn't mean that TiVo had been actively ignoring the UK. As to whether they've given up by now, I've no idea.


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## Regor

TiVo were at Mediacast2005 last year at Olympia. There is a thread about this in the archives called "Tivo Inc's 'finest' holding meetings in the UK?" Do a search for Tetris and you'll find it


----------



## HyperionX

hustler said:


> Where did I say that? I never suggested that a software update can turn a S1 box into a S2.
> 
> As I run a vanilla box, why should I care about you if you lose your hacks. When you hack the box, you accept that risk that perhaps an official upgrade will render your 3rd party hacks useless.
> 
> iankb, you still haven't answered my question. What year were TiVo at a show looking for partnerships for a UK launch?
> 
> TiVo bugs? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk/
> 
> It seems the 'regulars' are oblivious to these bugs and are not affected by them, so they should remain unfixed. I've been affected by a couple of them...so pardon me for wanting a better product.


Hi Hustler.

what "bugs" are you referring to?

I have an unhacked TiVo and I haven't noticed any _bugs_ so far however it's very possible that I've missed them. *- EDIT: Just saw the link to the Tivobugs listings. I've not seen many of these to be fair.* 

On the wider point there is something that I think might have been missed in this conversation and that is - convergence or "not wanting another box."

At present if TiVo were to simply license it's software to a hardware manufacturer if that manufacturer doesn't already produce a "tuner" device it means having to convince consumers to buy another box to go in to the already crowded TV real estate along with the DVD player/recorder, digital STB, etc.

It's my understanding that there is a growing resistance to doing that. Since TiVo can't sell its solution to Sky and apparently the cable companies are too far down their own development route that only leaves the lower end market of Freeview. And there as someone above said the margins are very low...even basic PVRs can be purchased for £100 and no subscription.

It's a shame that TiVo could never make it work with the cable companies - that would have the most viable and attractive solution.


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## kitschcamp

And there clearly is a need for a decent PVR Europe-wide. When buying something for Swedish television, I mentioned that in the UK I had a TiVo and the guy behind the counter started drooling.


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## cyril

Now that BBC HD looks as though it is here to stay, I think a High Definition capable series 4 TiVo with four tuners (2 Freeview, 2 satellite free to view) with DVD recorder and an analogue scart/component input could be a viable option.


This would appeal as an all-in-one box solution.


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## HyperionX

cyril said:


> Now that BBC HD looks as though it is here to stay, I think a High Definition capable series 4 TiVo with four tuners (2 Freeview, 2 satellite free to view) with DVD recorder and an analogue scart/component input could be a viable option.
> 
> This would appeal as an all-in-one box solution.


I would tend to agree...but...the way that the UK market is currently structured that would restrict them to the Freeview market.....the lower margin end. Admittedly this market is growing but the expectation and positioning has been and will continue to be basement pricing for universal television provision - effective something to replace the old analogue FTA stuff.

Again this might have been more viable/practical at the outset of Freeview but now even Freeview is setting up its own cross-manufacturer Freeview PVR standard.

At first glance most of what this new standard will do is "standard TiVo" fare (not enough to lead to copyright infringement I would assume) but again it makes the value proposition of a TiVo box even less attractive to manufacturers. When these manufacturers are building to a sale price of £200 max...where will TiVo recover the £250 lifetime subscription..? By its nature the ongoing £10 charge would not fit into the FTA (Free-to-All  ) mantra for Freeview

If the rest of Europe has a similarly structured market...(to be honest I don't know how the rest of Euorpe's broadcast and TV provision market is structured) TiVo is going to struggle in Europe full stop...

There may be some hope if they decide to move to something like a software strategy where it licenses the software to manufacturers and allows them to tweak as necessary....but they doesn't seem to be a path that they want to take.

I wish I could be more optimistic about TiVo coming to the UK 

In fact I really hope that the TiVo spottings are actually the visible signs of TiVo working with the Freeview organisation...

I wonder if the oft-predicted advent of cablecards might make TiVo more viable...?

If I understand the concept correctly, cablecard should allow me to receive my cable subscribed channels and play them through any cablecard enabled device without the need for the cable companies own equipment....if that were the case all bets would be off! :up:


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## Milhouse

cyril said:


> Now that BBC HD looks as though it is here to stay, I think a High Definition capable series 4 TiVo with four tuners (2 Freeview, 2 satellite free to view) with DVD recorder and an analogue scart/component input could be a viable option.
> 
> This would appeal as an all-in-one box solution.


Personally I still think a modular unit would suit TiVo best in Europe - how about a base unit with 4 slots that would accomodate any combination of cable (digital or even RF), CAM/CAM-free satellite or freeview tuners (including market/country-specific variants). Sell it bundled with one or two tuners and let the owners add additional tuners later. Of course this will add to the cost initially, but tuners should be made compatible across all manufacturers of TiVo (Sony, Pioneer, Philips - ok, I'll stop dreaming) so the cost will be shared.

It will never happen of course, but producing a single unit for the UK that ignores cable owners or comes with 2 tuners that will never be used (eg. freeview for sat users and vice-versa) probably isn't sensible if TiVo want to target multiple platforms and multiple regions.


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## BrianHughes

cyril said:


> Now that BBC HD looks as though it is here to stay, I think a High Definition capable series 4 TiVo with four tuners (2 Freeview, 2 satellite free to view) with DVD recorder and an analogue scart/component input could be a viable option.
> 
> This would appeal as an all-in-one box solution.


Drool!!!


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## mikerr

Its possible to watch encrypted channels on both sky and cable on PCs directly using a Dragon CAM - uses your subscription card, so it perfectly legal.

I doubt tivo or any company would ship something like that though....


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## HyperionX

It's a stretch I know and it actually refers to a recent in the US but I would suggest it does offer an better shape of hope that TiVo might explore markets outside of the US....

TiVo cuts deal with Cox, hints at Series 3 HD box 
The link is from the CNet Alpha blog posted a few days ago called "TiVo cuts deal with Cox, hints at Series3 HD box".

Basically it refers to a deal that TiVo have signed that will allow them to offer the TiVo software as an upgrade to existing PVRs in the wild rather than having to build and sell their own.

Why do I see some hope in that....? If they continue down that route it's entirely possible that this could give them a viable route into the lower Freeview market without having to build and sell new hardware.

Doesn't this contradict what I've said previously..? Well not exactly. I think they could offer a virtually neutered TiVo on a standard Freeview box and then offer the full TiVo experience for a nominal upgrade or monthly charge like the current £10 per month or similar.

They could make a real play for the _upgrade from Freeview_ market as well.

Depending on how aggressive they might want to go there's no reason why they can't offer a highly customised version to the cable operators...running on the bespoke cable hardware.


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## mark27

is it in the ones from tesco?


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## iankb

HyperionX said:


> Basically it refers to a deal that TiVo have signed that will allow them to offer the TiVo software as an upgrade to existing PVRs in the wild rather than having to build and sell their own.


Unfortunately, the hardware resources that are included in a cheap Freeview DVR box would be totally-inadequate to run the TiVo system. It's probably only 'top-end' companies such as Humax and Topfield that have the architecture to support it, and they seem to have resisted the TiVo licensing scheme. Global manufacturers probably already have dedicated US TiVo models that they could modify, if they felt so inclined.

In practice, buying into the TiVo hardware architecture is probably not much more than buying into the software architecture and licensing scheme, so I can't really see it taking off in this country. Current TiVo owners would be reluctant to 'upgrade' to anything that isn't a fully-fledged TiVo.


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## HyperionX

iankb said:


> Unfortunately, the hardware resources that are included in a cheap Freeview DVR box would be totally-inadequate to run the TiVo system. It's probably only 'top-end' companies such as Humax and Topfield that have the architecture to support it, and they seem to have resisted the TiVo licensing scheme. Global manufacturers probably already have dedicated US TiVo models that they could modify, if they felt so inclined.
> 
> In practice, buying into the TiVo hardware architecture is probably not much more than buying into the software architecture and licensing scheme, so I can't really see it taking off in this country. Current TiVo owners would be reluctant to 'upgrade' to anything that isn't a fully-fledged TiVo.


Not quite sure I understand what you mean by _totally inadequate_" for hardware resources to be honest....There are several very well suited hardware producers in the Freeview space already aside from Humax and Topview who could support TiVo. In addition TiVo could be offered as a value add-on in a similar way to the existing Freeview devices that offer recording or extended EPGs or multiple tuners compared to the basic devices.

Secondly my point was that by offering the TiVo system as more of a software add-on for the hardware they're already delivering...the licensing changes. TiVo could even offer licensing to the manufacturers that only charged if someone took up the TiVo option. This changes the dynamic for the hardware manufacturer significantly.

Lastly...I would never expect existing TiVo users to upgrade to a diluted introductory TiVo offering but as I think I indicated in my post my thinking was the initial _free offering_ would be like the existing free TiVo offering....users (including existing TiVo users) could upgrade to the full TiVo experience for an ongoing fee.

For existing users they would have access to the latest software and/or the latest and potentially more varied hardware devices.

All of this is of course wildy speculative and unlikely to occur but we can still hope...


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## HyperionX

mark27 said:


> is it in the ones from tesco?


Sorry mark27  this is still limited to the US
...but I hope that it might signal a way for TiVo to spread out from the US....

We can but hope.....


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## Andy Davies

iankb said:


> In practice, buying into the TiVo hardware architecture is probably not much more than buying into the software architecture and licensing scheme, so I can't really see it taking off in this country. Current TiVo owners would be reluctant to 'upgrade' to anything that isn't a fully-fledged TiVo.


I have seen a comment elsewhere saying that Tivo had a demo of their software running on a PC based platform at CES [Edit: changed as -> at]


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## iankb

Andy Davies said:


> I have seen a comment elsewhere saying that Tivo had a demo of their software running on a PC based platform as CES


It would be really-interesting to see how TiVo software and Windows MCE compare, when the hardware costs are similar. I suspect that TiVo would probably expect more for the software and a lifetime subscription than the cost of the Windows MCE OS.

In my case, the choice would probably be made on the ability of the software to be upgraded through add-ins.

However, if the hardware requirements are anything like MCE, it would probably be twice as expensive as a dedicated TiVo. The best solution might be a dedicated networked device that makes and plays back the recordings, and a PC-based software interface to control it. The database would be PC-based, and only hardware-control commands would need to be passed to the recording unit, so it would be dramatically quicker than using TivoWeb.


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## NoS34me

While running the TiVo software on a PC would be a step in some kind of direction, I'm not convinced it's the right one. In the US, the hardware prices of the Series2 TiVo units just kept dropping until there was no associated hardware cost, so long as you signed up for 12 months of TiVo service.
The way I see it, having had several buddies running MCE, is that the cheap little TiVo boxes win just on out and out reliability, as much as anything else. In over 5 years, my TiVo never let me down except when the network had screwed with the schedule at the last minute. Hardly the fault of my TiVo.

I don't intend this to be controversial, but with all the ruckus over Microsoft I don't understand why you friendly European folk haven't kicked up about the incumbent media suppliers. The behavior of Sky and friends is nothing short of anti-competitive and monopolistic.
In the US, it was federally mandated that cable companies have to supply you with a cablecard if you ask for it. This means that your TV can tune to all the channels that you pay for without having another box, and that your TV can be held responsible for decoding the video (for good or bad). The only thing cablecard lacks is Video On Demand, which in my experience is no big deal.
I don't see a similar setup here... from concept at least, cablecard makes it a whole lot easier to build boxes, such as Series3 TiVos, that can work in cable and OTA environments AND without losing channels you pay extra for.

For sure, I'd welcome TiVo to these shores. I recently bought a Freeview box (made by Humax) and returned it soon after. The interface was terrible. Humax UK should get in touch with their buddies in California


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## Milhouse

NoS34me said:


> I don't intend this to be controversial, but with all the ruckus over Microsoft I don't understand why you friendly European folk haven't kicked up about the incumbent media suppliers. The behavior of Sky and friends is nothing short of anti-competitive and monopolistic.


Murdoch & Labour

Murdoch has Labour in his pocket - I can't really see the UK government wanting to upset Murdoch by taking his company to court. Quite how Sky have evaded the interest of the EU with regard to the CAM is beyond me - friends in high places? Or perhaps no manufacturer has felt it necessary to complain?

And have you seen some of the media tycoons in Italy - they *are* the elected government! 

I'd love to see the introduction of a CableCard-type requirement in Europe, compatability with the US CC would be sensible if feasible so that US devices would be easier to market in the European market (ie. make CC a global standard).

Will it happen with the corrupt media moguls we have in Europe - I very much doubt it.


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## NoS34me

Milhouse said:


> Murdoch has Labour in his pocket - I can't really see the UK government wanting to upset Murdoch by taking his company to court. Quite how Sky have evaded the interest of the EU with regard to the CAM is beyond me - friends in high places? Or perhaps no manufacturer has felt it necessary to complain?
> 
> And have you seen some of the media tycoons in Italy - they *are* the elected government!


Thanks for the info - enlightening 



> I'd love to see the introduction of a CableCard-type requirement in Europe, compatability with the US CC would be sensible if feasible so that US devices would be easier to market in the European market (ie. make CC a global standard).
> 
> Will it happen with the corrupt media moguls we have in Europe - I very much doubt it.


It would make sense to use the same cablecard as the US, just for manufacturing, but I don't see that as big a deal as having the capability in the first place.


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## nathan

The reality though regarding Sky is that:

a) Murdoch is not Sky. News International only owns IIRC 37% of Sky. Sky is a publicly listed company.
b) Sky have, essentially, single-handedly built the pay/multichannel TV market in the UK. They shouldered the risk, they are entitled to the reward.

Finally 

c) Describing the people in the UK as European is more likely to be viewed as controversial than discussing Microsoft/Sky/Tivo etc. ;-)


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## NoS34me

nathan said:


> The reality though regarding Sky is that:
> 
> a) Murdoch is not Sky. News International only owns IIRC 37% of Sky. Sky is a publicly listed company.


That shouldn't make their behavior more or less excusable??



> b) Sky have, essentially, single-handedly built the pay/multichannel TV market in the UK. They shouldered the risk, they are entitled to the reward.


But regardless, they shouldn't be allowed to dominate, if we assume this is a free market environment? Or am I being too naive?



> Finally
> 
> c) Describing the people in the UK as European is more likely to be viewed as controversial than discussing Microsoft/Sky/Tivo etc. ;-)


LOL! Thanks for that. I've already had my knuckles rapped by a few folk for just that reason... who'd have thought there'd be such sentiment


----------



## nathan

NoS34me said:


> That shouldn't make their behavior more or less excusable??
> 
> But regardless, they shouldn't be allowed to dominate, if we assume this is a free market environment? Or am I being too naive?
> 
> LOL! Thanks for that. I've already had my knuckles rapped by a few folk for just that reason... who'd have thought there'd be such sentiment


I'm not excusing the behaviour of Murdoch/Sky/NI, just putting it into perspective. I find the whole "it's all Murdoch's fault" just sloppy, lazy thinking.

Whilst Sky may or may not dominate pay TV (personally, I don't think that they do), the elephant in the room with regards to media in this country is the BBC. They are the dominant force, far more powerful than Murdoch, and one that does not have to respond to a free market environment as they have a guaranteed revenue stream.

If you consider that UK foreign policy for the past 500 years or so is to cause trouble and turmoil in Europe, you won't go far wrong!


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## Andy Davies

iankb said:


> It would be really-interesting to see how TiVo software and Windows MCE compare, when the hardware costs are similar. I suspect that TiVo would probably expect more for the software and a lifetime subscription than the cost of the Windows MCE OS.
> 
> In my case, the choice would probably be made on the ability of the software to be upgraded through add-ins.
> 
> However, if the hardware requirements are anything like MCE, it would probably be twice as expensive as a dedicated TiVo. The best solution might be a dedicated networked device that makes and plays back the recordings, and a PC-based software interface to control it. The database would be PC-based, and only hardware-control commands would need to be passed to the recording unit, so it would be dramatically quicker than using TivoWeb.


I guess it depends on how similar the costs are i.e. would Tivo require a lighter weight platform than MCE and would this reduce costs in anyway?

I think in the long term I'm going to end up with a Linux PVR sitting in a cupboard somewhere and a slim box (something like Apple's iTV) sat under the TV(s).

Andy


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## Milhouse

nathan said:


> Whilst Sky may or may not dominate pay TV (personally, I don't think that they do), the elephant in the room with regards to media in this country is the BBC. They are the dominant force, far more powerful than Murdoch, and one that does not have to respond to a free market environment as they have a guaranteed revenue stream.


Maybe so, but the BBC support a digital platform that is open to everyone whereas Sky have a closed and proprietary platform that is open to no one but their chosen hardware suppliers who cannot compete with Sky themselves. Granted this situation is no doubt due to economics - the guaranteed income from the BBC licence fee contrasted with the vast amounts Sky have ploughed into building their infrastructure. Now that Sky are turning a very nice profit (£805m in 2005), isn't it about time they relaxed the restrictions on hardware manufacturers entering the market (providing they don't permit theft of service etc.)? Innovation is never going to happen in the satellite market while it conflicts with Sky's own income stream. Who wins here? Certainly not me or you.

Legislation will be required before true innovation occurs in the UK satellite market, but unfortunately this will never happen while we have Rupert's buddies living in #10 (yep, more lazy thinking).


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## terryeden

Reading through this, it strikes me that the BBC shoukd do with TiVo what they did with the Acorn (BBC Micro / Master).

Fantasy scenario.....
BBC sells dual FreeView TiVos with DVD burners for, say £200.
For your licence fee you get free listings.
For, say £10 per month or £200 lifetime, you get TiVoWeb access (through bbc.co.uk/myTiVo), software updates, wishlsts, HMO etc etc.

The BBC then collect, monitor and sell all the viewer information - surely that must be worth millions to them - if they can show that the new series of "Celebrity Strictly Come Doctor Who" gets X Million viewers - that helps them market it abroad.

They also bolster the FreeView market. They can sell preview programmes (as long as it's something more interesting than Dosser and Joe).

Total fantasy of course - but when I become Director General of the BBC it will happen.

T


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## wonderboy

I like this idea a lot, BBC & Tivo. At least then I wouldn't grudge the license fee so much...


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## ndunlavey

nathan said:


> They are the dominant force, far more powerful than Murdoch, and one that does not have to respond to a free market environment as they have a guaranteed revenue stream.


Thankfully, yes.


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## AENG

"terryeden for DG" would get my vote. :up:


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## technoflare

I did a google search for Tivo freesat and got all excited about it when I read quotes about a possible return, but reading this thread has wiped the smile from my face as it seems this prospect goes right back to 2006! With epgs on freesat and freeview i cant see the £10 a month option working, nor a one off fee. If they could make money from the box itself and could offer the kind of experience we got with the old tivo i would buy a HD freesat for a small premium above the Humax PVR. 

Maybe not the right time now I guess, maybe Tivo's UK moment has passed forever now... a victim of Sky and those that let it get into the position of power in the UK.


----------



## cwaring

terryeden said:


> ...if they can show that the new series of "Celebrity Strictly Come Doctor Who" gets X Million viewers - that helps them market it abroad.


Except that the don't _need_ any help to market their shows abroad. For example, SCD is the most-used show format in the world 



nathan said:


> I find the whole "it's all Murdoch's fault" just sloppy, lazy thinking.


Who has priced the popular sports out of the range of most other broadcasters, including the BBC?
Same with movies.
Same with most US imports (I said most, not all. Plus the BBC aren't allowed to show many anyway!) _and_ locks them up tight so no terrestrial broadcaster can show them, even years later.



> the elephant in the room with regards to media in this country is the BBC. They are the dominant force, far more powerful than Murdoch, and one that *does not have to respond to a free market environment as they have a guaranteed revenue stream*.


As another user has already said, that is a good thing, isn't it? (The highlighted bit.)

I would also disagree with the "far more powerful than Murdoch" comment too. See above re Sports and films.

Sky make _far_ more money than the BBC receives per year (from subs, ads _and_ programme sponsorship!), yet they spend most of it on only two areas; the afore-mentioned sports and movies. They could quite easily spend more on other, more standard UK-centric productions (like the BBC) but they choose not to. That's fine. I don't have a problem with that. But how anyone can say the BBC is "far more powerful", etc., when it is Sky that earns all the money (mainly for it's shareholders of course!) is beyond me.

If you consider that UK foreign policy for the past 500 years or so is to cause trouble and turmoil in Europe, you won't go far wrong![/QUOTE]


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## cyril

Well hardware costs seem to have come down somewhat -I've seen a blu-ray player in Asda for 75quid.

So maybe it's time for a four to six tuner + blu-ray with TiVo software for say &#163;350+&#163;200 lifetime sub?

There should be a gap in the market somewhere in-between the expensive Panasonic HD Freesat bluray DVRs (&#163;550+) and the Humax HD Freesat DVR (&#163;250)


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## iankb

cyril said:


> So maybe it's time for a four to six tuner + blu-ray with TiVo software for say £350+£200 lifetime sub?


The problem with a six-tuner TiVo would be the amount of diskspace required. Nowadays, people expect to be able to record HD, and they aren't willing to accept the lower-quality of TiVo-style compression.

My Windows 7 Media Center can take 20GB of diskspace to record a film in HD, and it can only be offlined to expensive Blu-Ray disks.

I have 2.5TB of diskspace and, with two FreeView and one FreeSat tuner, it fills up quite quickly.


----------



## cyril

iankb said:


> The problem with a six-tuner TiVo would be the amount of diskspace required. Nowadays, people expect to be able to record HD, and they aren't willing to accept the lower-quality of TiVo-style compression.
> 
> My Windows 7 Media Center can take 20GB of diskspace to record a film in HD, and it can only be offlined to expensive Blu-Ray disks.
> 
> I have 2.5TB of diskspace and, with two FreeView and one FreeSat tuner, it fills up quite quickly.


Well the TiVo would have a USB external port enabled, so a 1.5TB external drive should suffice for most users.

I think I have about 10TB now spread across 6 SkyHD, 3 FoxsatHD,1 FortecHD, 4 Windows Media centres, 7 TiVos. About half of them are not in use for various reasons.


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## EvilBoB

Just been reading this thread and it's got me excited - especially the mention of Humax being involved. I have a Humax Foxsat HDR and there is an big s/w update coming soon. If it were Tivo I would be so stoked!

Probably not though


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## Glen

If TiVo were to return to the UK, they would make a big deal out of it to get as much coverage as possible. I really loved my TiVo! Infact its still sitting on my tv stand unplugged. The lure of HD was far far too much for me after yonks of resisting and the final acceptance that they won't be back.


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## Automan

Glen said:


> If TiVo were to return to the UK, they would make a big deal out of it to get as much coverage as possible. I really loved my TiVo! Infact its still sitting on my tv stand unplugged. The lure of HD was far far too much for me after yonks of resisting and the final acceptance that they won't be back.


Accurate program recording start and stop control for a new Tivo would be a must for me and I suspect a strong selling point.

Automan.


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## DeadKenny

EvilBoB said:


> Just been reading this thread and it's got me excited


Sadly this is a bumped thread from 2006. Nothing to see here. Move along.

There's really no chance of TiVo's return now in my opinion. Even if they tried, they'd have a massive mountain to climb and would have to invest a vast amount in advertising just to build up awareness (and remember they couldn't be bothered before). The market is saturated with Freeview PVRs and that's really the only place they could gain a foothold. There's really no business sense in trying for just a niche product.


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## cleudo

DeadKenny said:


> Sadly this is a bumped thread from 2006. Nothing to see here. Move along.
> 
> There's really no chance of TiVo's return now in my opinion. Even if they tried, they'd have a massive mountain to climb and would have to invest a vast amount in advertising just to build up awareness (and remember they couldn't be bothered before). The market is saturated with Freeview PVRs and that's really the only place they could gain a foothold. There's really no business sense in trying for just a niche product.


This story is from the end of August, but case ongoing - I wonder if the likes of Sky, Humax etc etc might be getting a tad concerned...

http://newteevee.com/2009/08/26/tivo-sues-att-and-verizon-for-dvr-patent-infringement/


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## mikerr

Neither freesat or freeview fit in with TiVo's subscription model, and while us TiVo Zealots may happily pay &#163;400 for a new tivo... the public wouldn't pay more than &#163;100/&#163;200.

A TiVo software update to V+ would be the most viable option here,
it would be a good fir for VirginMedia, to differentiate their product from sky+
and could be sent to all existing units as an over the wire update.

The V+ box hardware is actually a Scienfic Atlanta 8300DVB, which already runs TiVo software in the US...

Why VirginMedia decided to write their own inferior software is beyond me - politics ?
or is a TiVo licence so expensive...?


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## countjocular

I'd gladly pay to have TiVo software running on my Sky+ box. A dual-boot option would mean people could carry on using the crappy Sky+ interface if they wanted, and the likes of us could use all the functionality of Tivo with the benefits of twin-tuners and improved picture quality.
Schedule info is 'live' in the satellite feed, though the dial-up option could always be used. Networking could always be achieved through the serial port.

Someone once said here that there's more Sky+ users in the UK than TiVo users in America. TiVo Inc. could expand their client base massively and relatively easily. BSkyB could benefit from new customers who've always avoided the Sky interface like the plague.
Downsides are Sky never admitting there's a better interface out there, and of course reliability issues across the many types of Sky boxes.

Dreams, eh?

Cheers,
Phil


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## iankb

Automan said:


> Accurate program recording start and stop control for a new Tivo would be a must for me and I suspect a strong selling point.
> 
> Automan.


That alone doesn't solve the problem, since a delayed programme on one channel may then overlap a scheduled recording on another channel. And it wouldn't be easy to predict the problem, and set your recording preferences.

To me, the only solution is a large number of tuners. With those, you can set a sizeable padding if you can't get real-time broadcast triggers.


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## DeadKenny

mikerr said:


> A TiVo software update to V+ would be the most viable option here,
> it would be a good fir for VirginMedia, to differentiate their product from sky+
> and could be sent to all existing units as an over the wire update.
> 
> The V+ box hardware is actually a Scienfic Atlanta 8300DVB, which already runs TiVo software in the US...
> 
> Why VirginMedia decided to write their own inferior software is beyond me - politics ?
> or is a TiVo licence so expensive...?


Virgin, formerly NTL, formerly CableTel (all the same company just rebranded themselves with the name of the companies they took over), have always done the most arse about face things. There's little logic in why they do what they do, but they do like reinventing the wheel and doing it badly.

There's no way they'll change software for TiVo software. It's extra cost for something no one but a few of us here wants. Sure it may be better but virtually no one is aware of TiVo beyond the odd reference in The Simpsons that they shrug at, and they have no real need of it so long as the existing box records programmes off the telly.



countjocular said:


> I'd gladly pay to have TiVo software running on my Sky+ box. A dual-boot option would mean people could carry on using the crappy Sky+ interface if they wanted, and the likes of us could use all the functionality of Tivo with the benefits of twin-tuners and improved picture quality.
> Schedule info is 'live' in the satellite feed, though the dial-up option could always be used. Networking could always be achieved through the serial port.
> 
> Someone once said here that there's more Sky+ users in the UK than TiVo users in America. TiVo Inc. could expand their client base massively and relatively easily. BSkyB could benefit from new customers who've always avoided the Sky interface like the plague.
> Downsides are Sky never admitting there's a better interface out there, and of course reliability issues across the many types of Sky boxes.
> 
> Dreams, eh?


Dreams indeed. Sky owns the platform and they will never allow a legitimate third party system on it. TiVo won't come to the UK without a legitimate platform.

We can forget Sky. Virgin is unlikely. Freesat/Freeview, maybe but the market is saturated with PVRs anyway.

TiVo is perhaps a bit dated now anyway as Internet TV is going to be the way forward.


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## cwaring

DeadKenny said:


> TiVo is perhaps a bit dated now anyway as Internet TV is going to be the way forward.


You haven't seen the Series4 then?


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## DeadKenny

cwaring said:


> You haven't seen the Series4 then?


Seems little need for a TiVo though when there are lots of net TV boxes on the market now in various forms, all a lot cheaper than a TiVo I'd guess.

I'm really not sure what my route forward is. I was going to go Sky+ HD, but the bugs with and the £10 a month it put me off. Then I thought I can live with the free stuff and for HD the majority of stuff of interest is on BBC. Thought of Freesat HD but then again I can just get a box or build one that will do iPlayer. I've got the broadband speed for the HD stuff. SD iPlayer I can already do just hooking up my netbook to the telly. Oh, and there's www.tvcatchup.com I found recently which covers a lot of the free channels.

Don't know, but if a new TiVo was going to be £300 and then a subscription on top!!!


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## blindlemon

mikerr said:


> The V+ box hardware is actually a Scienfic Atlanta 8300DVB, which already runs TiVo software in the US...
> 
> Why VirginMedia decided to write their own inferior software is beyond me - politics ?
> or is a TiVo licence so expensive...?


Yep - for a while I hoped this would happen too, but maybe you're right and a TiVo license is prohibitively expensive.... who knows


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