# MRV and TivoToComeBack Works if no cablecards



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

I do not have cablecard installed in my S3, and both MRV and TivoToComeBack works just fine.

Some data:

couldn't get any mpeg4 files to transfer (wmv, the avc files used on ipod). 
Non Tivo high bitrate videos worked fine. EG. Dan Maas's 400 MB, 9 minute JPL animation of MER rover mission
Satellite source Tivo file (Dish network) with its weird 540 wide aspect ratio played fine on the S3.
Resolution on the S3 displayed MPG is much higher than on the S2 (I will upload some photos to illustrate later). This may or may not be due to Component versus SVideo output, and not a superior display processor.
Very high datarate video (Maas video) did not saturate-stutter on high bitrate sequences, as is the case on the S2. This suggests some superiority on the S3 with data throughput.
Transfer speed approximately 4X faster than on the S2. (120 minutes of "Best" 540 wide video tivoback transfered in 29 minutes.)

Does anyone have the specs on the file format/ encoding details for the MPEG4s that this puppy eats?


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## BoyScout (Aug 9, 2002)

So you are just using the S3 as a player? No input signals at all other than OTA?


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Are you able to MRV an HD (OTA I assume) show over an S2?

I'm tempted to pull out my CableCards to try this, but I'm worried I'd never get them working again.


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

More info please!!! How are you access the Tivo without the S3 media key??? Through a web browser?


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## hornblowercat (Mar 4, 2007)

windracer said:


> Are you able to MRV an HD (OTA I assume) show over an S2?
> 
> I'm tempted to pull out my CableCards to try this, but I'm worried I'd never get them working again.


Smart man. Let's wait and see how this thing plays out.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Carlos_E said:


> More info please!!! How are you access the Tivo without the S3 media key??? Through a web browser?


Well, he didn't say TTG was working, which is where the MAK would come in (though it might be used behind the scenes for MRV, so more clarification is definitely needed here).


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## VanGoghLikesTivo (Jan 18, 2005)

Justin Thyme said:


> I do not have cablecard installed in my S3, and both MRV and TivoToComeBack works just fine.


I do not understand how you were able to activate transfers. When I go to the TiVo website, it tells me that transfers are not currently available for my S3. There is no option to activate transfers for the S3. I do not have cable cards with my S3. I can see music and photos on my network on my S3, but I cannot view my networked S2 units from my S3.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

VanGoghLikesTivo said:


> I do not understand how you were able to activate transfers. When I go to the TiVo website, it tells me that transfers are not currently available for my S3. There is no option to activate transfers for the S3. I do not have cable cards with my S3. I can see music and photos on my network on my S3, but I cannot view my networked S2 units from my S3.


Like you, the Tivo website says that transfers are "not currently available" for my S3.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

windracer said:


> Well, he didn't say TTG was working, which is where the MAK would come in (though it might be used behind the scenes for MRV, so more clarification is definitely needed here).


I have not attempted to download from the S3 to the PC. I will next and report back. I was able, as I said to transfer from my PC to the S3, which is a TTG operation.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

windracer said:


> Are you able to MRV an HD (OTA I assume) show over an S2?
> 
> I'm tempted to pull out my CableCards to try this, but I'm worried I'd never get them working again.


Huge bug with the DT Tivo. I can do the transfer, but the Best recorded video will not play. while it is transfering, you will see the progress bar, but no video. It isn't black, it is the green background.

This is really odd because the satellite source video did xfer to the S3. I don't see why the source (a PC versus an S2) would matter.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

BoyScout said:
 

> So you are just using the S3 as a player? No input signals at all other than OTA?


I am getting analog cable stations (about 70 or so.) I also can record digital QAM both SD and HD.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Although the two transfers from PC looked fine, it is obvious from the MRV failure from DT Tivo that this is not ready for prime time. 

The non Tivo MPEG (740x480) is solid- I can't crash it. 

I can crash the 540 wide Tivo origin mpeg by going into reverse. What it does is reverse then the video stops on a frame. No response to Tivo buttons- nothing. Just the paused frame, the progress bar, and no response. Can't do anything but reboot.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Here are some pictures comparing the PQ of the Series 3 versus the Series 2 on video transfered from a PC to these Tivo models via the TivoToGoBack feature. Animation video was created by Dan Maas and is the highest grade version of this work that I know of. 








Full frame from Dan Maas 720x480 DVD formatted video which was accessed via torrent in 2003. File name was "mer2003-sfx-dvd-24p-ac3.mpg" 390 MB.









detail of a frame transfered to a Tivo Series 2









Same detail area of a frame from video transfered to a Series 3 via TivoToComeBack.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Ok, after playing with this, my conclusion is that this is pretty useless for the general population, but for the determined, it is possible to establish a pathway from your S2 Tivos to your S3. You can also transfer other Mpeg2s (eg ripped DVDs and theoretically even hidef camcorder files) to your Series 3 from your PC.

I was unable to:

transfer Mpeg4s from PC to Series 3
transfer ANYTHING from a Series 3 to any other destination (S2 or PC). This includes digitized analog Cable, as well as unencrypted digital (S3 recordings of local QAM channels).
MRV transfer to or from the S3.
transfer of a .tivo file from a PC to an S3.

In these failed cases, it was possible to initiate the transfer. However, some error condition would occur- varying depending on case.

Soooo- if you have a plain .mpg file, you can transfer it to the S3. That's about it. To those of you who know the ropes, this means that you actually can transfer an S2 file to the S3, but it is a hassle. You first TTG the S2 .tivo to the PC. Convert to .mpg, then TivoBack the file to the S3.

Not for civilians, but it can be done.

BTW- in case anyone was wondering my TivoToGo flags are a,a,a.

If somehow I was permitted this capability in error, the only thing unusual about this was I transfered the account paying for it from an S2 to this S3. I do not intend to attach my S3 to the outside internet until I am done playing with this, or others are able to reproduce my results.

Bug update- I have been unable to reproduce the bug with the 544x480 mpegs. It appears to be only this one file I had from 2 years ago, that was probably recorded on a 240xxxx (2.0) Tivo. All the files from the 2.5 Tivos don't repro the freeze on reverse bug.

So all in all, it appears they have stable capability, but any functionality that would require accessing a file with TivoGuard protection on it has been disabled on the Series 3.

If any of this is unclear or futher photos would be helpful, please ask.

My next experiment is to upload xfer a hidef camcorder file to the series 3.


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

I'm still confused how are you uploading the files to the S3? What application?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Justin Thyme said:


> BTW- in case anyone was wondering my TivoToGo flags are a,a,a.


 This is the mistake IMO. For most with S3 this reads i,i,i which means none of the functionality Justin is describing will work for them. In any case Justin please continue experimenting as much as possible before you are disabled


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## headroll (Jan 20, 2003)

moyekj said:


> This is the mistake IMO. For most with S3 this reads i,i,i which means none of the functionality Justin is describing will work for them. In any case Justin please continue experimenting as much as possible before you are disabled


Didn't similar (although less functional) things happen early in the S3 release cycle based on the a,a,a issue and the ability that we could still set this (for Series 3) from tivo.com ...

Possibly the data had been temporarily and mistakenly moved from a box which service was transferred. We have seen names switch, possibly other configuration parameters too?

-Roll


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> I do not have cablecard installed in my S3, and both MRV and TivoToComeBack works just fine.
> 
> Some data:
> 
> ...


What the....????????    

No cablecards here, I can't transfer anything to anything else with regards to the S3..? How did you get this?


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

The only thing that I can do with my S3 without any cable of any kind, cards or otherwise, just an antenna, is to view photos and play MP3 files. 

I opened this with my heart in my throat thinking finally I could use my two S3 TiVos to advantage. But alas, I guess I will have to run HDMI room to room and kluge control with some X10 extenders.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Carlos_E said:


> I'm still confused how are you uploading the files to the S3? What application?


It is the same application and operation details as doing a TivoToGoBack transfer using a series 2 Tivo. I am running Tivo Desktop on the PC. The PC shows up as a folder at the bottom of my now playing list. Opening this folder, I see a list of all .mpgs and .tivos that are in the Tivo recordings folder on the PC.

Transfer of .tivo files from the PC appear to work (the number of minutes on info and the FF bar increases during the transfer). The bits get to the S3, but the S3 refuses to display the video.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

What S3 sw version are you running?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> No cablecards here, I can't transfer anything to anything else with regards to the S3..? How did you get this?


I think Headroll and Moyekj are correct. I shouldn't have the a,a,a flags on my account (Displayed in settings... System info). It must have been that way since I initialized the account. I only got the network rigged properly in the new house (where the S3 is) in the last few weeks, so the DT and the S3 haven't been able to see each other until recently. As I was driving the other day, I flashed on an image of the DT (a series 2 Tivo) folder at the bottom of the S3's list. Like a dolt, I was ignoring its appearance without realizing what it meant. That must have been going on for quite a while. Well- I should have been grinding the scratches out of the Bathroom counter and fixing the locks in the utility closet anyway.

But I couldn't resist trying some of the new capabilities of the S3. It really is has a remarkably higher resolution playing the same analog shows that I use the DT to record. I think the photos I have posted bear that out. It isn't a small subjective difference that only video nuts quibble about. Anyone with a screen larger than 30 inches should have a unit with S3 display capability, even if they only watch SD analog or digital shows like I do.

Some administrative error may have happenned when I moved to the S3 my account from an S2 with TivoToGo enabled. Unfortunately, more than one lock had to be left open for me to get full MRV and TivoToGo functionality. The S3 refuses to play and in some cases move (to the PC) any files with TivoGuard on them.

None of this is even vaguely shady. Since my Tivo does not have Cablecard installed, all of the S3 Tivo shows are legally copiable as is the case with shows recorded on the Series 2.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

zalusky said:


> What S3 sw version are you running?


Yeah, I thought about that (maybe they shadow dropped me a late beta as is their practice before a new rev). But no. I have the same as everyone else- 8.1.1 -01-2-648

Besides, if it was in the Sw version and not the flags, they wouldn't have forgotten to allow the TivoGuard access routines to operate normally.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> Yeah, I thought about that (maybe they shadow dropped me a late beta as is their practice before a new rev). But no. I have the same as everyone else- 8.1.1 -01-2-648
> 
> Besides, if it was in the Sw version and not the flags, they wouldn't have forgotten to allow the TivoGuard access routines to operate normally.


The reason I ask is there was a period of time you could select Allow transfers on "Manage my Tivo -> DVR preferences". During this time that changed the i,i,i to a,a,a.

Once it was a,a,a I could see my other tivos. Ijust couldnt do the actual transfer.

Subsequently they saw us talking about and issued a patch to stop that and we changed back to i,i,i.

However I thought maybe you had disabled upgrades somehow and it stayed at a,a,a.

I had heard a rumor once about trying to make MRV work for non-cable stuff and even more. Maybe part of that is upon us in this release and you have stumbled into it like I stumbled into the DVR preferences thing.


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## cgould (Dec 28, 2002)

Hi Justin, 
thanks for sharing this, hope your a,a,a stays for a while- 
I sent you a PM w/ this info and links of test files to download.

Could you do a BIG favor, and try downloading the PM'd HDV MPEG2 files to your PC, putting them into your transfer folder, and see if they transfer and play back fine? 
You mentioned hi-res MPG files worked, but these are specifically the HD MPG2 format I am interested in.

They are HDV-format files from my Canon HV10 HD camcorder, and I am EAGERLY hoping I can transfer and view my Hi-Def videos on the S3 once the TTCB feature works... I noted you wanted to try some as well.

Let me know if you have any problems/questions via email/PM.

Thank you so much!!


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

This is without a doubt an error on TiVo's part.

The reason MRV and ToGo and other .tivo files don't work is very likely because the S3 is not part of the authorized group of TiVos so the S3 doesn't have the decryption keys needed to view the encrypted files. Unencrypted files don't have this issue.

With that out of the way. I'm curious as to why everyone just assumes that the S3 can play video formats other than MPEG2 natively. Sure it has the hardware to do so, but without corresponding software it doesn't make a difference.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

morac said:


> The reason MRV and ToGo and other .tivo files don't work is very likely because the S3 is not part of the authorized group of TiVos so the S3 doesn't have the decryption keys needed to view the encrypted files.


If you believe Tivo, the S3 cannot support MRV/TTG because the code to support it _physically isn't there_. They removed it -- as opposed to disabling it -- to get CableLabs certification. The reason unscrambled, "simple" MPEG-2's work (when accidentally enabled) is because that's TivoCast.

(If anyone were to actually watch what goes on behind the blue LED, it's just straight HTTP transfer of an mpg file. In fact, the url will work in WMP, once you know what the url is. Before you get any ideas, 99% of what controlls TivoCast is HTTPS and therefore difficult to intercept.)


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## Carsten (Feb 5, 2007)

morac said:


> This is without a doubt an error on TiVo's part.
> 
> The reason MRV and ToGo and other .tivo files don't work is very likely because the S3 is not part of the authorized group of TiVos so the S3 doesn't have the decryption keys needed to view the encrypted files. Unencrypted files don't have this issue.
> 
> With that out of the way. I'm curious as to why everyone just assumes that the S3 can play video formats other than MPEG2 natively. Sure it has the hardware to do so, but without corresponding software it doesn't make a difference.


Not to forget that the onboard CPU isnt powerfull enough to encode/decode Divx/vxid/etc codec on the fly. The only reason it can work w/ MPEG2 is becuase it has an onboard decoder/encoder chip.


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## cgould (Dec 28, 2002)

Carsten said:


> Not to forget that the onboard CPU isnt powerfull enough to encode/decode Divx/vxid/etc codec on the fly. The only reason it can work w/ MPEG2 is becuase it has an onboard decoder/encoder chip.


I thought the decoder chip (acc to Tivolover's FAQ top this thread)was capable of more formats than that: (MPEG-4 AVC/H.264, and VC-1/WMV9 etc), but agreed the onboard existing software might not be able to handle that yet;
however at least for my specific interest, most HD camcorders use HD-res MPEG2 files, [email protected]/4:2:0, which should be very similar to the HDTV broadcast MPG2 (slightly different res, higher bandwidth 25mbps not 7-19 etc)


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

cramer said:


> If you believe Tivo, the S3 cannot support MRV/TTG because the code to support it _physically isn't there_. They removed it -- as opposed to disabling it -- to get CableLabs certification. The reason unscrambled, "simple" MPEG-2's work (when accidentally enabled) is because that's TivoCast.


While the results of TiVoCast is the same, comeback does not use the same methods as TiVoCast. Comeback uses the same protocols as ToGo (just in reverse). I'm inclined to believe MRV/TTG is there, but disabled (ie: i,i,i) as it makes no sense from a programmer's standpoint to rip out all the code when it is very simple on their end to disable it.

The fact that Justin Thyme can do anything transfer related now that his S3 is listing as "a,a,a" is pretty much proof of that.

Simply not giving the S3 a MAK would be enough to disable it. It's basically the same as if you took 2 TiVos on two different accounts and put them on the same network. They wouldn't talk to each other because they aren't authorized to.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

cgould said:


> Could you do a BIG favor, and try downloading the PM'd HDV MPEG2 files to your PC, putting them into your transfer folder, and see if they transfer and play back fine?


Well, I put them on an external drive and will trot over to the other house with them in a bit, but just looking at them, the dimensions seemed a little odd. I was expecting 720p's 1280x720, or 1080i's 1920x1080. Your camcorder is spitting out 1440 x 1088. I don't recall what my HD camcorder puts out, but it isn't this.

I'll give it a whirl, but I am not optimistic.

Hey codec motorheads in the audience- what's your guess here on what Tivo would support? Anyone know what the Cable on wire mpegs being sent as? I'll bet that's what will work if it doesn't eat this or the 720p/1080i dimensions.

Or hey, if TivoStephen or TivoJerry would like to drop a hint here, that would be nice.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Justin Thyme said:


> Or hey, if TivoStephen or TivoJerry would like to drop a hint here, that would be nice.


My guess is that they are very busy seeing to it that the hole you have brought to their attention is plugged.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Carlos_E said:


> More info please!!! How are you access the Tivo without the S3 media key???


Why not do it with a media access key? Manage my account tells me mine, but there's not a lot I can do with it.


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## cgould (Dec 28, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> Well, I put them on an external drive and will trot over to the other house with them in a bit, but just looking at them, the dimensions seemed a little odd. I was expecting 720p's 1280x720, or 1080i's 1920x1080. Your camcorder is spitting out 1440 x 1088. I don't recall what my HD camcorder puts out, but it isn't this.
> 
> I'll give it a whirl, but I am not optimistic.
> 
> ...


HDV format true tape-recorded res is always 1440x1080, (well for 1080i not 720)... it is re-scaled up to 1920 on camera outputs, and often in editors. 
If you have a harddisk-based or non-HDV camera (eg AVCHD?) , it might record full 1920. Note that AVCHD is MPEG4 compression so I doubt it would work.
Hopefully the tivo would accept whatever res/pixel size, as you seem to have shown earlier for various sized SD MPEG files.
Thanks much for your help, and hope your camcorder files work too.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Justin Thyme said:


> Hey codec motorheads in the audience- what's your guess here on what Tivo would support? Anyone know what the Cable on wire mpegs being sent as? I'll bet that's what will work if it doesn't eat this or the 720p/1080i dimensions.


 Digital cable transmissions (and ATSC OTA transmissions) are all mpeg2 transport streams. The HD variety are the usual 720p (1280x720, 60fps) or 1080i (1920x1080, 30fps) transmissions, the SD digital resolutions can vary but are also mpeg2 transport streams. For sure the S3 can decode those.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

No, mine is one of those small Sony Hidef cameras. Forget the model number, but it was the small one that bestbuy used to sell last summer.

Those odd dimenstions I mentioned actually are defined by a standard for accepted DVD mpeg resolutions. They correspond to fixed settings inside the Tivo- I forget the nomenclature, but resolution 0 was 720x480, 1 was 544x480, 2 was 480x480 and so on.

Anyway, woohoo my speculations didn't matter. The transfer worked but there were hitches. The fly one xferred ok. I could play it, but if I hit pause, rewind, the system would freeze requiring reboot. It also had some major blockey artifacts in the middle like what you see when rain interupts a satellite transmission. This fly one was super super short, so perhaps that was part of the freeze bug.

The chinese drum one runs fine, looks great. Does not crash Tivo playing in in 720p forced. Playing it with Video set to "Native", the S3 set the output to 1080i. When I hit pause rewind, it froze Tivo requiring reboot.

Resolution was great, but there were the same blocky artifacts.

Here are some images. Everyone has seen Hidef on the S3, so no big deal here- it's sharp, it's pretty. Only difference is it came from your camcorder.









Yeah, it is really on an S3.







Thanks moyekj for confirming my speculations on those dimenstions. I used graphedit in a quick and dirty attempt to transcode them to 1280x720, and 1920x1080, but my mpeg encoder (moonlight standard) would not accept widths that large. I have something around here I used on the Hidef files- hopefully it was not a trial and I can do some more test files in other resolutions to see how gnarly this "blockiness during zoom" bug is. Just for fun, I tried moonlights H264 encoder, which allowed the dimension but S3 wouldn't play it.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

cramer said:


> If you believe Tivo, the S3 cannot support MRV/TTG because the code to support it _physically isn't there_. They removed it -- as opposed to disabling it -- to get CableLabs certification. The reason unscrambled, "simple" MPEG-2's work (when accidentally enabled) is because that's TivoCast.


Removal of code is a strong claim that I have seen no evidence for, and lots of evidence against. Where did TiVo ever say they did that? I certainly believe they need more code in order to get everything to work (eg, different code to send an MRV S2 show to their hardware decrypter that's different on an S3 than an S2). But could you please substantiate your claim that TiVo said they had to remove code to get CableLabs certification?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> I was expecting 720p's 1280x720, or 1080i's 1920x1080. Your camcorder is spitting out 1440 x 1088.


The old HR10-250 has no problem with DirecTV's 1280x1080i. I wouldn't expect a problem with the width. As for the height, 1088 is actually common on "1080i" channels, too. It's something about being divisible by 16... and the last 8 lines are set to not display... I think.


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## cgould (Dec 28, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> No, mine is one of those small Sony Hidef cameras. Forget the model number, but it was the small one that bestbuy used to sell last summer.
> 
> Those odd dimenstions I mentioned actually are defined by a standard for accepted DVD mpeg resolutions. They correspond to fixed settings inside the Tivo- I forget the nomenclature, but resolution 0 was 720x480, 1 was 544x480, 2 was 480x480 and so on.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much Justin! Great screenshots- as sharp as the original HD- thanks!

The files are MPG2 converted from M2T (transport stream) so they're not fully native HDV files, but they otherwise weren't rendered much and don't have any glitches in them on playback (eg in VLC on the PC), so strange about the big blocks/artifacts in the middle. Do they play OK on your computer, or show the same artifacts? perhaps something glitched during up/download.

Yes the fly one is super short, just a few seconds, and the chinese charm one under 10sec also... HD file sizes are too much for the internet 
I have another nice one of flower closeups, 1:37, but it's 300MB, same converted M2T->MPG2. PM me for the URL if you want to try it.
I could try to get some M2T files, but not sure I have space to upload... I can't edit those w/o transcoding and they're bigger.

Meanwhile at least the "HD PC->S3 files transfer+playback" concept has been proven, it's possible, and I'll wait happily for the real thing to happen soon I hope w/ any issues resolved. (hint beta test volunteer  ) This would definitely be great to compete w/ AppleTV, as they don't have much HD content available/usable... and I won't have to muck with HD switchers or other media extenders


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I'm just wondering how you got the (a,a,a). Did you transfer lifetime from a S2, whereas most everyone transferred from a S1? We all know about the "name swapping". If you transferred lifetime from an S2, perhaps the (a,a,a) transferred with it.


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## Carsten (Feb 5, 2007)

I wonder why TivoComeBack isnt there anyway. Has nothing to do w/ getting content off the S3


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Administratively, it's not hard to see that it is much cleaner if it is either all on or all off. Sadly, that includes folks like me that have not bothered with cablecards yet. Since the device is a cablecard host, I can see how a legal agreement could be written so that cablelabs might have a say over capabilities even if cablecards weren't installed. Folks familiar with the CHILA might be able to offer speculation on that point.



Mike Farrington said:


> I'm just wondering how you got the (a,a,a). Did you transfer lifetime from a S2, whereas most everyone transferred from a S1? We all know about the "name swapping". If you transferred lifetime from an S2, perhaps the (a,a,a) transferred with it.


Mike, I have tried to figure that, but I have come up nothing. This install was a little bit out of the ordinary, since you normally start with a clean new account. And normally, folks install at least one cablecard. I never did.

Before I got the S3 I had a DT set up. I sold it to my neighbor, then when I initialized the S3, I already had a working account. Possibly when I initialized it, it passed the flags then. But as far as what I did- nothing out of the ordinary. I think I set it for transfers on Tivo.com but that is it. As far as I know, the flags were there from install. But they might have appeared later. I just wasn't paying that close attention, since I knew the status of MRV and didn't bother with any of it.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

cgould, your data rate was 25 mbps, so I had a theory that this is a combination of the Series 3 having to upconvert to 1920x1080, and then getting swamped by the datarate. Just as a datapoint, TivoToGoBack recommends no more than 8mbps for the S2, and Cable generally digitizes HD at 15mbps, according to what I have read in their trade magazines.

What program generated these mpg files? I ask, because I can't get Graphedit or Ulead VideoStudio 10 to output any HD files the Tivo will eat. SD files are no sweat. The best I can get, only the first frame is displayed. Most of them, it displays an error message that there was no video in the recording (although Info shows data is there). CBR, VBR, PES, no PES, I frame only or no, 29.97, 24, 30 or 60fps, standard dimensions or no.

If anyone knows of more mpg files on the net I can try, let me know the urls. I downloaded 1920x1080 mpegs: ftp://ftp.heise.de/pub/ct/spezial/emotion.mpg, and ftp://ftp.heise.de/pub/ct/spezial/crawford.mpg. These did not display on Tivo.

I'll break out the camcorder and convert some stuff over from the Sony Hidef camcorder. Sony Software is usually off the wall with formats, so I am not optimistic that it will help out. Any recommendations for HD Video software trials out there that will at least generate small hd mpg files?


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

Have you tried Quicktime Pro?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Nope- Is there a free trial of that, and do random conversions from mpg2 formats into compliant mpg? If not, yeah, I could shoot in the dark, but I'd rather pick up updates of VideoRedo, and the HD video editor competitors to Ulead, than buy something less full featured.

BTW- I just transfered some video from my camcorder, and the mpg produced has exactly the same parameters as CGould's- 25mbps CBR 1440x1080 Upper field first 29.97fps Audio mpeg layer 2 48Khz stereo 16bit.

The S3 ate CGould's file with these characteristics just fine. My directshow pipes must be loused up as is often the case, because I generate these with the same characteristics, and S3 turns its nose up at them. 

What a way to spend a Palm Sunday.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

I know Pirates of the Caribbean 2 has some HD preview that are 720p or 1080p, if you can strip the MPEG2 stream out of it, you can try it.

http://www.comingsoon.net/films.php?id=6175


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## cgould (Dec 28, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> cgould, your data rate was 25 mbps, so I had a theory that this is a combination of the Series 3 having to upconvert to 1920x1080, and then getting swamped by the datarate. Just as a datapoint, TivoToGoBack recommends no more than 8mbps for the S2, and Cable generally digitizes HD at 15mbps, according to what I have read in their trade magazines.
> 
> What program generated these mpg files? I ask, because I can't get Graphedit or Ulead VideoStudio 10 to output any HD files the Tivo will eat. SD files are no sweat. The best I can get, only the first frame is displayed. Most of them, it displays an error message that there was no video in the recording (although Info shows data is there). CBR, VBR, PES, no PES, I frame only or no, 29.97, 24, 30 or 60fps, standard dimensions or no.
> 
> ...


I used Ulead MediaStudio Pro8. As mentioned it just converts the M2T transport stream native format of the HDV tape, to regular program stream MPG2 file, no other real transcoding. All 1080-60i HDV video is 1440x1080 res at 25Mbps, upper field first.. 
If you use any editors to create/convert native HDV video , look for a HDV-1080-60i profile.
Sony Vegas should have a similar profile, but it will take and edit native M2T files.
Ulead VideoStudio10(plus) should have some HD profiles as well ..? maybe only the plus version, not std...
here's the data for profile from MSpro:

NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First (MPEG-2), 16:9
Video data rate: 25000 kbps 
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

PS you should be able to download free, usable trials for all of the above (Ulead VideoStudio10Plus, MSPro8, and Sony Vegas7), to capture/edit/generate HDV-compliant MPG files.

I'm hoping the S3 will take HDV-format 1440x1080 rather than some specific format, as that would save the most time/space re-rendering and transcoding. The S3 shouldn't have a problem displaying 1440 rather than 1920 I don't think.

8Mbps is the normal max for SD DVD-compliant MPG, and there is not much point encoding SD at higher res (no benefit), so not surprised at the above recommendation; and yes ATSC (broadcast HD) maxes out at like 15-19Mbps. One reason my Canon video looks sharper than DiscoveryHD 

I couldn't get the 2 heise.de MPG files to even play on my PC in VLC player (which does nearly everything)... MSPro played it OK. (maybe was the audio or high bitrate?)
MSPro said re its format:
1920x1080 29.97fps, 24bit, 16:9
30000 kbps (higher than 25... hmm)
Audio was Dolby Digital 5.1 48KHz @ 384Kbps, maybe that contributes..

For other sample HD/HDV files, check out dvinfo.net, has lots of reviews of HDV cameras, w/ various people posting various samples including M2T files (my next suggestion.) Some of them are quicktime MOV (eg H.264, doubt will play) or WMV etc, so they might not play, suggest the MPG/M2T ones only.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=139 is the forum for the HV10, there are lots of other camera forums as well.

OK, one Japan site that had some good sample M2T files: 30-200MB...
http://videosan.web.fc2.com/HV10docs/index.html


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## cgould (Dec 28, 2002)

yunlin12 said:


> I know Pirates of the Caribbean 2 has some HD preview that are 720p or 1080p, if you can strip the MPEG2 stream out of it, you can try it.
> 
> http://www.comingsoon.net/films.php?id=6175


1080p won't work (need 1080i), and neither would Quicktime, most HD quicktime is H.264 (MPG4) compression which I doubt the S3 would take straight out of the box. You'd need to convert to MPG2 compression (not sure if quicktime pro trial would do that.)


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

Quicktime Pro can export MPEG 2. You just need a serialized version.


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## cgould (Dec 28, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> Nope- Is there a free trial of that, and do random conversions from mpg2 formats into compliant mpg? If not, yeah, I could shoot in the dark, but I'd rather pick up updates of VideoRedo, and the HD video editor competitors to Ulead, than buy something less full featured.
> 
> BTW- I just transfered some video from my camcorder, and the mpg produced has exactly the same parameters as CGould's- 25mbps CBR 1440x1080 Upper field first 29.97fps Audio mpeg layer 2 48Khz stereo 16bit.
> 
> ...


PM me your snail-mail address and I'll buy you a box of Easter chocolates to make up for all your help testing


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Ok good news. It looks like folks with camcorders will be able to play their hidef on S3's with the software on there today. 

What I am seeing is that 1440x1080 (the format that came off of CGould and my hidef camcorders) works fine at very high rates (20mbps)- so long as you transcode from CBR (constant bit rate) to VBR (variable bit rate). No stuttering/ freezing. Stunning video. S3 is infrickingcredible. The S3 may handle even higher datarates- I just haven't pushed it hard yet. Since the transformation of CBR to VBR is trivial, I expect all the consumer video apps will make this very simple for civilians. 

===Warning- entering Video transcoder motorhead talk section====

I figured out why I was fouled up. My directshow pipes were indeed mucked up. I switched my output muxer (moonlight M71 was the culprit) and all is well with Graphedit. The problem with Ulead VideoStudio 10 was that to get anything Hidef, they very unhelpfully only output a transport stream not a program stream ("Mpeg-2" output has no option for PS vs. TS output). 

I'll push the limits and see what the max datarate is with VBR. Will try and post some pictures later. Suggestions of test case hidef Mpeg2s are most welcome. A good test case video would be one from some provider that wouldn't mind lots of hits from folks checking my data. I'm not sure this german fellow's video emotion.mpg 1920x1080 fits that bill- the xfer rate was very low.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

sorry if you said already- it's not clear to me-

Have you tried to upload any MP4 video?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Yes- in four flavours. 

1) H264 output from a Moonlight encoder (using graphedit)
2) MP4 using VLC's encoder (yeah, it is not just a player, but an encoder AND a stream server)
3) WMV 
4) AVC encoded by Tivo for an iPod.

Of course, there are hundreds and hundreds of variations on what file wrappers to use, and the settings on the encoders. Only .mpg and .tivo endings showed up in the file list on the S3, so I simply renamed file extensions to .mpg. 

All failed. I think there may well be something that works, but to be honest, I am too lazy to methodically go through the plausible permutations. If anyone with a convincing reason why one particular variation should work, if time allows, I'll give them a shot. I didn't think CGould's file would work but it did, so who knows. 

If any little birds want to drop a hint, there is always PM (not that anyone ever talks to me).

Due to the lack of Hidef mpeg2 test file suggestions, I think I will go with one of the small japanese M2T files off the site that CGould mentioned, and see what the highest data rate I can get. Hopefully there is one in there with a lot of frame differences to give a good stress test.


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## Leo_N (Nov 13, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Yes- in four flavours.
> 
> 1) H264 output from a Moonlight encoder (using graphedit)
> 2) MP4 using VLC's encoder (yeah, it is not just a player, but an encoder AND a stream server)
> ...


Have you tried using pipakin's Tivo.Net application yet? I don't remember if it works by MRV or TTCB. But I'm imagining that if it is using TTCB, you'll be able to use it.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

?? We are discussing running Mpeg4's natively on the S3, and wondering what flavour that the S3 would play (if any as of the current 8.1 software).

Converting to MPEG2 that the Tivo will eat is no problem. (Though I will wager that pipakin doesn't provide for the correct mpeg2 settings to transfer HD to the S3, since we just stumbled on them yesterday).


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> Yes- in four flavours.
> 
> 1) H264 output from a Moonlight encoder (using graphedit)
> 2) MP4 using VLC's encoder (yeah, it is not just a player, but an encoder AND a stream server)
> ...


thanks for the specifics- bummed...


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## Leo_N (Nov 13, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> ?? We are discussing running Mpeg4's natively on the S3, and wondering what flavour that the S3 would play (if any as of the current 8.1 software).
> 
> Converting to MPEG2 that the Tivo will eat is no problem. (Though I will wager that pipakin doesn't provide for the correct mpeg2 settings to transfer HD to the S3, since we just stumbled on them yesterday).


Yep, was just wondering if his app worked at all for streaming to the S3. He had said it was likely I believe, but no one had been able to check it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Leo_N said:


> Have you tried using pipakin's Tivo.Net application yet? I don't remember if it works by MRV or TTCB. But I'm imagining that if it is using TTCB, you'll be able to use it.


it works by TTCB and that's what seems to be working on the S3 so it will work...


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## EmailGuy (Feb 26, 2007)

I also have an S3 Tivo with no cable cards installed. I have an antenna connected that picks up about 20 ATSC stations over the air and I have an analog cable connection with about 70 cable channels.

I also have an S2DT and a PC running the Tivo Desktop. I currently serve up my DVD collection to my S2DT from my PC. I would love to be able to do the same for my S3.

Tivo cannot use the excuse that it doesn't work or that they are bound by cable labs because it has been demonstrated to work and I have no cable cards installed.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I dont think you need to petition- the fact it sort of works shows they are working on it. But if you read the specifics it's not yet ready for primetime (locks up and crashes at times). When it's done it will be on your box.

I guess maybe people posting in these type threads or writing petitions would show them it's important to us and they should devote sufficient resources to it- but if they haven't figured that out yet I'm not sure what the deal is.

As much as I want it today- we have to keep things in perspective- recent cable filings to the FCC indicate that there's something like 20-30,000 S3's in the wild at this point. There's probably something on the order of magnitude of like a million S2's (give or take a few hundred thou...). THey have spent millions on S3 R&D so far- making the S3 a huge money pit. On the plus side the S3 is it's flagship and likely the basis for the new upcoming CHEAP HD DVR they are working on. So there's a balance of priorities going on.


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## puffdaddy (Mar 1, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> Removal of code is a strong claim that I have seen no evidence for, and lots of evidence against.


What evidence do you have that the MRV code is still present?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

puffdaddy said:


> What evidence do you have that the MRV code is still present?


There's some circumstantial evidence since some early purchasers of the S3 could see their S2 on them and transfer program, but the programs were all pixelated.

The main reason many believe the MRV code is still present is because it makes no sense economically to remove it when it can be disabled. If you are in charge of a company, which would you rather do?

a) Pay a number of programmers to spend days going through all the code and rip out all references to MRV when there is a possibility that said code would need to be added back in later.

b) Use already existing mechanisms to disable MRV and not waste any money.

B is the answer that makes most sense business-wise. If they trust it enough to disable MRV on TiVos that aren't subscribed (they don't delete MRV code off your TiVo in that case), then I would think they trust it in this case.


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## Leo_N (Nov 13, 2003)

morac said:


> There's some circumstantial evidence since some early purchasers of the S3 could see their S2 on them and transfer program, but the programs were all pixelated.
> 
> The main reason many believe the MRV code is still present is because it makes no sense economically to remove it when it can be disabled. If you are in charge of a company, which would you rather do?
> 
> ...


Agree totally with morac. I was one of the ones in the thread a few months ago talking about this. The fact that we were getting MRV and TTG specific error messages proves to me that at least the old versions were in there. Probably not the same version we will ever see actually rolled out, I am sure they will need to add in programming to account for different content-protection levels, plus what I would be guessing is a Vista only DRM scheme if TTG were to ever see the light of day.


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## puffdaddy (Mar 1, 2006)

morac said:


> There's some circumstantial evidence since some early purchasers of the S3 could see their S2 on them and transfer program, but the programs were all pixelated.


The code for Apple's Rendezvous protocol (used by MRV to discover other tivos) has always been present (hence you can make other boxes appear in your NPL if you know what you are doing), but I was unaware that anyone had been even able to browse another unit's programs, let alone initiate transfers. Any pointers to this?



> The main reason many believe the MRV code is still present is because it makes no sense economically to remove it when it can be disabled. If you are in charge of a company, which would you rather do?
> 
> a) Pay a number of programmers to spend days going through all the code and rip out all references to MRV when there is a possibility that said code would need to be added back in later.
> 
> ...


While logical, I don't think it is what happened. I think you failed to factor the content providers into the business equation and to distinguish between SD and HD content. TiVo trusts that their protections discourage (but do not completely prevent) theft of service, but TiVo's isn't in the content generation/distribution business. The content providers are less sanguine about TiVo's content protection mechanisms.

Looking back, you can see that Tivo did exactly what you postulate they should. For DTivo software releases 6.1x/6.2x, they deactivated MRV & HMO without modularizing tivoapp, thus leaving the code intact. It was possible to bypass the spigotmap controls and re-enable those features. Then, someone went and made it possible for script-kiddies to do the same (zipper). A similar thing happened with the whole TTG feature of the SA units.

With those tools granting the unwashed masses access to unencrypted content, folks took note (DirecTV & CableLabs).

The large delay holding back the HD DTivo 6.3 release after the SD DTivo 6.2 release was that DirecTV was demanding something stronger that the "existing mechanisms to disable MRV". On the standalone side, the S3's release was delayed beyond that of the DT, even though the DT was a newer hardware release. The S3 (8.0.1) and HD DTivo (6.3) were nearly released at the same time, and both possessed HD content, content the providers were seeking to protect.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

As a former software engineering manager, I strongly agree with Morac and Leo_N's speculations.

If I didn't report it, the status of MRV on my machine:

Transfers from an S2 to an S3 work. The transferred show will not play, but all guide information is displayed, and the GBs used is displayed. Transfer speed is about 15 minutes for a 1 hour Show recorded at Best. That's about 4X what an S2 to S2 transfer takes. Bravo Tivo!

Transfers from S3 to S2 are disallowed. You can browse the S3 list of shows, initiate the transfer, get the wait message after clicking to "transfer this show", but the wait message terminates with an error message suggesting that the S3 left the network- I don't recall the text, but it is like- S3LRoom could not be found. Please check your network connections...


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## Leo_N (Nov 13, 2003)

puffdaddy said:


> The code for Apple's Rendezvous protocol (used by MRV to discover other tivos) has always been present (hence you can make other boxes appear in your NPL if you know what you are doing), but I was unaware that anyone had been even able to browse another unit's programs, let alone initiate transfers. Any pointers to this?


I was able to browse from S2 to S3 or the other way around don't remember which, when the settings were at a,a,a instead of the (normal on the S3 currently) i,i,i

If you do a search, this thread I believe happened somewhere in the late Nov. to early January range (just guessing, it's been a while).


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## puffdaddy (Mar 1, 2006)

Very interesting. Perhaps there are difference between 6.3x and 8.1.x that I was not aware of. This bears more investigation for a definitive answer; can anyone send me a copy of their 8.1.x or 8.0.x tivoapp?


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Justin Thyme said:


> As a former software engineering manager, I strongly agree with Morac and Leo_N's speculations.
> 
> If I didn't report it, the status of MRV on my machine:
> 
> ...


Not quite disallowed from the S3 to S2. At least during my fleeting experiments with a,a,a (see my posts in a previous thread; I think on occasion of the 8.1 release), I could transfer a show from an S2 to an S3, then transfer from the S3 to a second S2, and then watch it on the second S2. So the transfer code is fully functional, but dealing with the various show formats on the various machines was not operational (no analog S3 transfers to an S2 for instance).

Note that MRV requires extensive beta testing; I would imagine months. They really have to make sure it won't interfere with other activities on the S3, even in the presence of bad networks and other obstacles. (I believe the audio glitches while scrolling in the TiVo guide are an example of one activity interfering with another; that was fixed in 8.1).


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## cgould (Dec 28, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> I dont think you need to petition- the fact it sort of works shows they are working on it. But if you read the specifics it's not yet ready for primetime (locks up and crashes at times). When it's done it will be on your box.
> 
> I guess maybe people posting in these type threads or writing petitions would show them it's important to us and they should devote sufficient resources to it- but if they haven't figured that out yet I'm not sure what the deal is.
> 
> As much as I want it today- we have to keep things in perspective- recent cable filings to the FCC indicate that there's something like 20-30,000 S3's in the wild at this point. There's probably something on the order of magnitude of like a million S2's (give or take a few hundred thou...). THey have spent millions on S3 R&D so far- making the S3 a huge money pit. On the plus side the S3 is it's flagship and likely the basis for the new upcoming CHEAP HD DVR they are working on. So there's a balance of priorities going on.


I would disagree re priorities to one extent: in that getting TTCB at least to work on the S3, especially for HD video, would enable the S3 (and theoretically some cheaper "mainstream HD tivo") to be competitive with AppleTV and other media-extender STBs.
This is a critical marketing time as this niche is just starting to take root now- and often, the first "works well" product in a niche will take it over as market leader. Certainly with Apple's hat in the ring, the market sector is now "official", as opposed to the trojan-horse efforts of Microsoft & Sony with their HD game consoles (although they've been also looking to the HD disk playback not so much network, PS3 at least- xbox360 is definitely network focussed.)

While the S3 has maybe taken a lot of R&D money, are there other large projects/features to still implement in S2 land? If not, why not put money into the HD market? Several of the recent new projects (home movies, mobile, unbox, tivocast etc) all seem to work across both S2s and S3s...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cgould said:


> I would disagree re priorities to one extent: in that getting TTCB at least to work on the S3, especially for HD video, would enable the S3 (and theoretically some cheaper "mainstream HD tivo") to be competitive with AppleTV and other media-extender STBs.
> This is a critical marketing time as this niche is just starting to take root now- and often, the first "works well" product in a niche will take it over as market leader. Certainly with Apple's hat in the ring, the market sector is now "official", as opposed to the trojan-horse efforts of Microsoft & Sony with their HD game consoles (although they've been also looking to the HD disk playback not so much network, PS3 at least- xbox360 is definitely network focussed.)
> 
> While the S3 has maybe taken a lot of R&D money, are there other large projects/features to still implement in S2 land? If not, why not put money into the HD market? Several of the recent new projects (home movies, mobile, unbox, tivocast etc) all seem to work across both S2s and S3s...


there's really nothing to "disagree" about- I'm not advocating anything- I'm just pointing out that they have a list of priorities and that they dont have unlimited resources so I'm thinking that the S3 TTG/MRV group doesn't have 100 full time programmers or anything...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I think MRV currently doesn't work merely becasue the MAK on your account isn't getting to the S3- that's how it's disabled. The show transfers (you can see the gigs in the info screen) but it wont decrypt without hte MRv so it cant play. You can move it back to another S2 and that one will play it becasue it has the MAK to decrypt.

JMHO....


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

cgould said:


> I would disagree re priorities to one extent: in that getting TTCB at least to work on the S3, especially for HD video, would enable the S3 (and theoretically some cheaper "mainstream HD tivo") to be competitive with AppleTV and other media-extender STBs.
> This is a critical marketing time as this niche is just starting to take root now- and often, the first "works well" product in a niche will take it over as market leader. Certainly with Apple's hat in the ring, the market sector is now "official", as opposed to the trojan-horse efforts of Microsoft & Sony with their HD game consoles (although they've been also looking to the HD disk playback not so much network, PS3 at least- xbox360 is definitely network focussed.)
> 
> While the S3 has maybe taken a lot of R&D money, are there other large projects/features to still implement in S2 land? If not, why not put money into the HD market? Several of the recent new projects (home movies, mobile, unbox, tivocast etc) all seem to work across both S2s and S3s...


I have a PS3 and Sony's download store goes beta this summer.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

Justin Thyme said:


> As a former software engineering manager, I strongly agree with Morac and Leo_N's speculations.


Except you haven't dealt with Cable Labs certification. Tivo stated publically, months ago, the TTG/MRV capabilities were _REMOVED_ for CL. Not disabled, but removed. Tivo and Cable Labs both know full well we're going to get into the box. If you leave dormant code in the system, we _will_ find it, and we _will_ turn it on. We've been doing it for a decade, just because it has a cableCARD(tm) in it now doesn't mean it's automatically out-of-bounds. (I'd take the cableCARD(tm) apart if the cable company wouldn't **** a solid gold kitten.)



> Transfers from an S2 to an S3 work.


That's an interesting definition of "works". If TTG were working, the video would be playable. As it is, what the S3 gets from the S2 is junk -- Tivo Guard(tm) scrambled stuff it cannot unscramble.

As CrispyCritter pointed out, S2 to S2 via a S3 works/worked. The only way that works is if the S3 doesn't do any scrambling. This supports the Tivo statement that core code was removed, since transfers had to be enabled to get (a,a,a). Part of that process is setting the MAK. Even the S2 DTivo has to have a MAK set to hacker-enable TTG/MRV even though it's output isn't scrambled.

Anyone wanna try S3 to/from a hacker-enabled S2 DTivo?


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

cramer said:


> Except you haven't dealt with Cable Labs certification. Tivo stated publically, months ago, the TTG/MRV capabilities were _REMOVED_ for CL. Not disabled, but removed. Tivo and Cable Labs both know full well we're going to get into the box. If you leave dormant code in the system, we _will_ find it, and we _will_ turn it on. We've been doing it for a decade, just because it has a cableCARD(tm) in it now doesn't mean it's automatically out-of-bounds. (I'd take the cableCARD(tm) apart if the cable company wouldn't **** a solid gold kitten.)
> 
> 
> > Transfers from an S2 to an S3 work.
> ...


Cramer, your post makes no sense at all to me. Can you explain more?

1. Of course MRV capability was removed before the initial cablelabs certification of the S3.  Nobody denies that. What I challenged you to do was to find any statement from TiVo that the code was removed. You haven't (so far) even though you claimed they had said that. Where is that statement from TiVo that they removed the core code?

2. Transfers from an S2 to an S3 are working. What does that have to do TTG working? It's an "interesting claim" because it's completely accurate? You're not making any sense here. What the S3 got from the S2 upon transfer was a complete viewable show, just not viewable from the S3. It wasn't junk.

3. How do you make the jump from MRV correctly working to/from S2 to S3 to that proving that core code was removed? That is not the "only way that works". There's all kinds of other possible explanations, beginning with the S3 supports different video formats, a different video chip, and different database entries than the S2. If any of those is involved even peripherally in TTG, then TTG won't work until new code is written.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cramer said:


> Except you haven't dealt with Cable Labs certification. Tivo stated publically, months ago, the TTG/MRV capabilities were _REMOVED_ for CL. Not disabled, but removed. Tivo and Cable Labs both know full well we're going to get into the box. If you leave dormant code in the system, we _will_ find it, and we _will_ turn it on. We've been doing it for a decade, just because it has a cableCARD(tm) in it now doesn't mean it's automatically out-of-bounds. (I'd take the cableCARD(tm) apart if the cable company wouldn't **** a solid gold kitten.)
> ...


FYI- many of the cablelabs docs specifically say that they understand it's not reasonable for a hardware vendor to protect there box from any possible hack. There's a doc that specifically says something like they understand that approved devices probably cant reasonably be expected to protect against hacks that require mod chips or soldering on the board- so as long as the hacks to the S3 require pulling the chip and re flashing it then tivo is in the clear and so they wouldn't need to remove every single line of code.

That said, doesn't mean they didn't remove every last line. But I'm just saying that cable labs didn't necessarily demand/require the code to be removed as long as it was disabled and would require futzing with the prom to get to.

My personal opinion (so take it for what it is- LOL)- it's the lack of the MAK ont he S3 that stops it from working.


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## Maeglin (Sep 27, 2006)

Indeed... there is at least proof that, while previous versions of the S3 software may not have supported video transfers at all, 8.1 is at least one step in that direction (even if it is still normally disabled).

The HTTPS server that runs on the box, which facilitates transferring from it, was not there before the 8.1 release. Nothing was listening on that port. Starting with 8.1, there is something there, even though you can't currently do anything with it. I would call that a good sign.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Maeglin said:


> Indeed... there is at least proof that, while previous versions of the S3 software may not have supported video transfers at all, 8.1 is at least one step in that direction (even if it is still normally disabled).
> 
> The HTTPS server that runs on the box, which facilitates transferring from it, was not there before the 8.1 release. Nothing was listening on that port. Starting with 8.1, there is something there, even though you can't currently do anything with it. I would call that a good sign.


I forgot that-

that's an interesting point. Something has changed....


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## jkovach (Feb 17, 2000)

cramer said:


> Except you haven't dealt with Cable Labs certification. Tivo stated publically, months ago, the TTG/MRV capabilities were _REMOVED_ for CL. Not disabled, but removed.


I think you're reading too much into it. Removing capability does not have to mean removing the code. Disabling the code can have the result of removing the capability.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

cramer said:


> Anyone wanna try S3 to/from a hacker-enabled S2 DTivo?


Wouldn't help. S3 terminated the conversation on its end before any of the show was transmitted.

To repeat, inbound MRV workaround exists. Code could be written to move the desired show from the S2, convert to mpg. Then you could play on your S3.

Tivo Corp will work it out. As noted, there are some things it can move and others it is obligated not to move as of this time. It's complicated as usual, but they are grinding down the problem until it will be gone. I'm pretty confident this is just a matter of time- they are persistent bastards.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> so as long as the hacks to the S3 require pulling the chip and re flashing it then tivo is in the clear and so they wouldn't need to remove every single line of code.


There's no need to reflash the prom. Placing the drive in some other system to flip the appropriate resource bits will net the same thing. (a,a,a) vs. (i,i,i) is a setting, not a change in application code. It's a SATA drive so that complicates matters _slightly_, but one CoolMax external enclosure fixes that. Among the right circles, MFS is very well understood.

So, in the end, if they leave the code in tivoapp, it doesn't take any hardware modification to enable that code. If they remove the code, there's nothing at all to enable. The fact that a S2 tranfer to a S3 is unplayable supports the notion that part of the code is missing -- namely Tivo Guard(tm). What the S3 has, from it's perspective, is junk; it's not an mpeg stream. (and it's not, what the S2 is sending is a ".tivo" file.) And transfers from the S3 to a S2 are aborted by the S3... that says to me they removed/stubed out that part of the code. (anyone looked at the error logs after attempting a transfer?)

[EDIT] Here's the best I can currently dig up on the "removal" issue. The "_We've never seen it._" bit supports the code having been removed for certification. Keep in mind, 8.1 was not what was sent for certification. (8.0 might not have been either.) And there are reports in the HDTivo forum that 6.3 removed TTG/MRV from that platform, but I've not checked with the "hacker community". ('tho I'll find out first hand in a few days when my HDTivo arrives.)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cramer said:


> There's no need to reflash the prom. Placing the drive in some other system to flip the appropriate resource bits will net the same thing. (a,a,a) vs. (i,i,i) is a setting, not a change in application code. It's a SATA drive so that complicates matters _slightly_, but one CoolMax external enclosure fixes that. Among the right circles, MFS is very well understood.
> 
> So, in the end, if they leave the code in tivoapp, it doesn't take any hardware modification to enable that code. If they remove the code, there's nothing at all to enable. The fact that a S2 tranfer to a S3 is unplayable supports the notion that part of the code is missing -- namely Tivo Guard(tm). What the S3 has, from it's perspective, is junk; it's not an mpeg stream. (and it's not, what the S2 is sending is a ".tivo" file.) And transfers from the S3 to a S2 are aborted by the S3... that says to me they removed/stubed out that part of the code. (anyone looked at the error logs after attempting a transfer?)


Honestly not sure if pulling the drive is considered the same as fiddling with a prom. I'd have to go find that quote again and see how specific they are.

Here's the BIG quesiton- can you insert a MAK by pulling an S3 drive in "some other system" and will it stick. Caus'e the MAK is what seems to be holding up MRV (IMHO- no expert at all). Does the S3 even have the database element for the MAK or do you have to fiddle with the S3 tivoapp to get it to see the MAK- if you have to fiddle with tivoapp then the prom thing comes into play and tivo's off the hook.

If a mak will stay after set someplace else- can you please PM me - I'm all over that-LOL _(edit- need to say *without * a prom mod- last time I played with a prom i was just doing the hack on the flashable s1 directivo's and trashed it- but it got donated to the cause at the database so it all worked out.- but I'm plenty gun shy on my 800 dollar toy...)_

_edit: thinking about it through- doesn't the a,a,a or i,i,i come down from the moterh ship at each connection? If so you can change a,a,a all you want but the next day when it calls home you will be back to i,i,i. At best you can block it's calls come but after 2 weeks you run out of auth and tghe box boat anchors anyway. So not sure it's a realistic hack. You can't do it in the s3 without the prom mod- so you'd be pulling your drive daily (or at best every 13 days) to reanable the hack. Or am I wrong (totally possible you guys seem to know much more than I)_


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cramer said:


> ...
> 
> [EDIT] Here's the best I can currently dig up on the "removal" issue. The "_We've never seen it._" bit supports the code having been removed for certification. Keep in mind, 8.1 was not what was sent for certification. (8.0 might not have been either.) And there are reports in the HDTivo forum that 6.3 removed TTG/MRV from that platform, but I've not checked with the "hacker community". ('tho I'll find out first hand in a few days when my HDTivo arrives.)


not trying to have a pissing match but all i see in the article from tivo's mouth is:



> A spokesperson for TiVo would not answer direct questions about the Series3, CableLabs and DRM, but did release the following statement: "TiVo's primary goal was to launch and introduce the Series 3 to consumers in time for the holiday season this year. TiVo has the capability and a long history of downloading features to its customers on a regular basis. We are currently working with CableLabs on several technologies centered around moving content around the home environment."


nothing about removing anything.

I think the cablelabs guy is doing some laywer speak "we havne't seen it" can me that they haven't submitted an application. or They haven't shown us a trial version. And beyond that he's talking about TTG specifically not MRV at that point.

thanks for the link though- I like when I see tivo or cablelabs on the record on the issues to see some actual facts...


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## Carsten (Feb 5, 2007)

cramer said:


> There's no need to reflash the prom. Placing the drive in some other system to flip the appropriate resource bits will net the same thing. (a,a,a) vs. (i,i,i) is a setting, not a change in application code. It's a SATA drive so that complicates matters _slightly_, but one CoolMax external enclosure fixes that. Among the right circles, MFS is very well understood.
> 
> So, in the end, if they leave the code in tivoapp, it doesn't take any hardware modification to enable that code. If they remove the code, there's nothing at all to enable. The fact that a S2 tranfer to a S3 is unplayable supports the notion that part of the code is missing -- namely Tivo Guard(tm). What the S3 has, from it's perspective, is junk; it's not an mpeg stream. (and it's not, what the S2 is sending is a ".tivo" file.) And transfers from the S3 to a S2 are aborted by the S3... that says to me they removed/stubed out that part of the code. (anyone looked at the error logs after attempting a transfer?)
> 
> [EDIT] Here's the best I can currently dig up on the "removal" issue. The "_We've never seen it._" bit supports the code having been removed for certification. Keep in mind, 8.1 was not what was sent for certification. (8.0 might not have been either.) And there are reports in the HDTivo forum that 6.3 removed TTG/MRV from that platform, but I've not checked with the "hacker community". ('tho I'll find out first hand in a few days when my HDTivo arrives.)


Have you ever read anything about PGP/Hashs/etc?

If it was that was that easy as you say then we wouldnt have any problem getting into the TiVo and running our own software...

I dont feel like going into the details (google it if you want). But everything that runs/settings on the Tivo has signatures. This means if you go into the executable or settings (wherever they are stored) and you change something without resigning the file then the Tivo will throw an error message and halt execution. This check is on the BIOS level. The only way to remove this check would be to get the BIOS off the EPROM and make modifications to disable this signature check. Once you have that you'll need to reprogram the EPROM and that should do it.

I know there are other ways of doing it as well. Like buffer overflows...but again I dont want to go into all that detail. Google Xbox hacks or even S1/S2's.

I hope I didnt say to much....


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

cramer said:


> Here's the best I can currently dig up on the "removal" issue. The "_We've never seen it._" bit supports the code having been removed for certification. Keep in mind, 8.1 was not what was sent for certification. (8.0 might not have been either.) And there are reports in the HDTivo forum that 6.3 removed TTG/MRV from that platform, but I've not checked with the "hacker community". ('tho I'll find out first hand in a few days when my HDTivo arrives.)


I think you have a major misunderstanding of the CableLabs approval process that the S3 had to go through for initial approval. No code at all was looked at; CableLabs was required to treat the S3 as a black box and only test input/output behavior, according to CableLabs procedures that dt_dc has posted the links to. (Companies have to assured that their proprietary hardware won't be dissected if they submit something for approval). TiVo had to attest that restricted content was not available from other outputs, but that wasn't something that CableLabs tested or verified. So CableLabs had no opportunity to look at TTG code during the initial S3 approval.

The TTG and eSata approval process is different. CablesLabs has to approve a process and interface. My guess is that still won't involve looking at code, just something like a finite-state machine that TiVo will have to supply, and then for S3 approval will have to show the S3 satisfies the finite-state machine.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Regarding Tivo.Net- This works fine on the S3, converts all the usual files, my DivXs and the Hidef camcorder files just fine. 

Naturally, Tivo.Net was not written to take into consideration that it should not scale down Hidef files if the client is an S3. Hidef files are downscaled to 480 high by Tivo.net. 

Viewing Hidef camcorder files as I remarked earlier, will have to be transcoded if the S3 software does not change regarding playback performance with 25mbps (apparantely constant bit rate) files. I tried figuring out the formula for reliably transcoding these files, but I am half way moved in and my set up is a pain, making this experimentation painfully time consuming. (My good cpu is at the other house, and the video server where the S3 is is an ancient cpu with very slow processor/ low memory). Anyway, I am punting on further Hidef tests. I can easily get camcorder files over that look very nice and have no artifacts. CGould's charm video is an example. There is no question that good hidef files can be transfered to the S3 for playback- the S3 has no trouble playing back CableCo Hidef Mpeg files. 

The possibility that they might need to be transcoded when TTG gets turned on officially should not be a problem if software like Tivo.Net is updated to transcode Hidef files during the transfer. On the other hand, the reason that the hidef camcorder 25 mbps files stutter may be due to some minor tweaks to the data pipeline that the Tivo devs never tuned because no cable hidef shows would have such extreme datarates. But you will still have to send the camcorder files through a PC, so it hardly matters whether a transcode (that is effectively invisible with Tivo.Net) is necessary or not. 

I am going to reattach my S3 back to the net shortly, and it is possible I could loose my a,a,a settings. If there are any other experiments or things people suggest I try, let me know.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

fyi i you care- youcan cange the ffmpeg settingsthat tivo.net uses- so if you cared to play more you can set it to the correct reluton and the lik (I think...)


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

I'm sure you are right, but I think it needs more than a static setting. For example, I don't want it to convert 544x480's to 1440x1080, and if I request a 1440x1080 hidef camcorder movie from the DT Tivo, I don't want Tivo.Net to send me 1440x1080.

So there is a small decision tree in there requiring code.

I think a TivoBack server, and not 1.3 TB removable disk pairs is probably going to remain the most versatile solution for packrats of video.

Such a software package would do what Tivo.Net but also support:


Auto Archiving of shows from Tivo into MPEG4, thus doubling or tripling storage capacity.
Auto enhancement during archive (de interlace, anti aliasing, mpeg, film grain, and rf interference noise removal)
Download of filmography data and bitmaps into a MySql database
Terabytes and Terabytes of cheap drives means thousands and thousands of movies and shows. It must be much more easily navigable than a linear alphabetical list. So, Tivo Now playing list presents virtual folders of database information in folders by Actor, By Directory, by Genre etc., with subfolders showing the remaining dimensions. For example, Genre scifi would have an actors subfolder. Harrison Ford folder would have Blade Runner, Star Wars, and subfolders for other genres, allowing for non hierarchical navigation of content.
Power saving: Built to work so that server goes into hibernation during inactivity, and wakes up when a Tivo queries for the server directory. (Wake on Lan)

Yikes! Anyone check out the hit count? 3100 reads of this thread in only 5 days, and we aren't even on the main forum.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

Carsten said:


> Have you ever read anything about PGP/Hashs/etc?


Yes. I guess you are unaware of the patches to disable the initrd *that still pass the signature test.*



> If it was that was that easy as you say then we wouldnt have any problem getting into the TiVo and running our own software...


In fact, "we" don't. There's no initrdkiller for the S3 (yet.) Honestly, it's easier to change the prom; and that forever disables the initrd waste of time. (but then again, I know how to work with a soldering iron.)



> ... everything that runs/settings on the Tivo has signatures.


Apparently _you_ don't know how it works. The PROM validates the signature over the kernel and initrd. Then the initrd checks the signatures of every file that's supposed to be in root filesystem -- files that aren't supposed to be there get deleted, invalid files trigger a software reinstall. The contents of MFS *are not signed.* One can easily go flip a bit here or there to change a resource setting from "off" to "on" without pissing off any "BIOS" check. How exactly do you think "we" have been changing the backdoor password over the last several years? (in fact, the PROM has ZERO knowledge of MFS -- I know; I've disassembled the damn things.)


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

cramer said:


> Yes. I guess you are unaware of the patches to disable the initrd *that still pass the signature test.*


Which requires a PROM mod. You can't just plug in the Tivo hard drive into another machine and switch the i,i,i flag to a,a,a. If you did that, the Tivo wouldn't boot. You also have to remove the original PROM and flash a replacement one.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Because the TTG protocol functions on the S3, it probably comes as no surprize that PyTivo also works with the S3. I ran the test just to make sure this morning. No special settings were required for normal operation. I haven't had time to test anything fancy with it.


By the way, the title of this thread suggests that this only works with non cablecard Tivos. As far as I know, if you have a,a,a on anS3 with cablecards, it may well work perfectly fine. I just can't confirm it because I have not gotten around to getting the cards put in. Theoretically, it should work just fine.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Justin Thyme said:


> BBy the way, the title of this thread suggests that this only works with non cablecard Tivos. As far as I know, if you have a,a,a on anS3 with cablecards, it may well work perfectly fine. I just can't confirm it because I have not gotten around to getting the cards put in. Theoretically, it should work just fine.


All of my MRV transfers when I mistakenly had a,a,a were with cablecards, so I would expect your TTG functionality would work with cablecards, though like you I have no proof. Thanks for experimenting so carefully with all of this!


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Well yay.

PyTivo was very kindly modified by its author and I was able to transfer very high change Hidef files to the S3. For example:

ftp://ftp.heise.de/pub/ct/spezial/crawford.mpg was ragged as it started up, and as it ended, but there were no blockey breakups during any of the fast motions in this short hidef clip.

http://videosan.web.fc2.com/HV10docs/index.html has two files:
HV10-05, which is a very low datarate 1440x1080 file
HV10-12, a train passing by at high speed, also 1440x1080.

Amazingly, PyTivo's mpeg decoder (FFMPEG) actually handled the train quite well. The low datarate flower was a great hidef picture.

The downsides I found- I had to lower the datarate setting down to "6Mi" which I assume to be average VBR rate. If not, I can't understand how the picture would be even vaguely as crisp as it was. Even if this is an average rate, from what little I know, I would think this is way too low for a genuine Hidef picture.

What FFMPEG appeared to do on fast motion was two things- on the passing train, the detail of the foreground portion of the train was grainey, while the stationary objects were razor sharp. Secondly, during some motion on a camcorder shot of my daughter's classroom, the frame rate appeared to go down slightly- like maybe to 20fps- as if they just gave up and started repeating frames.

I also saw blockiness at the very beginning of the Crawford test file, and at the very end- I chalked that one up to some transition problem- either the encoder, or the S3, but from my armchair, I'd wager much easier to deal with.

The largest problem occured while I was playing back the train file before it had completely transfered. I got pretty rough with it, FF'ing up to the point it was just delivering, then triple REW back. Anyway, something happenned to the S3's ability to play back audio from any show from the Now playing list. Most of the time everything was just silent, but on test files, audio would play very intermittently. Video was unaffected. I tried a few things to get it back to normal, but gave up after not too long and restarted. Everything was back to normal after that, and I could not repro by simply FF'ing and REW'ing in an already transfered show. Something about an in progress transfer had some bugs. The workaround for such a bug is pretty easy- just start the transfer 10 minutes early and you'll never get up to the "just loaded" bits where the problem seems to occur.

In files I first encoded using a ulead media studio, I could get 20mbps (max VBR) rates on the daughter camcorder as well as CGould's charm video. The Train one I never did very well at- I couldn't even get 15mbps to work, but it wasn't like I knew what I was doing either.

Anyway, for all I know the S3 will be tuned for such transfers and FFMPEG will be able to transfer at much greater rates.

As of this point in time, what I have seen in these tests is that workable functionality for even Hidef files could be expected for TivoToGoBack transfers. Certainly, what is workable for gearheads like us is nowhere close to where products have to be for civilians. I have no way of telling how close they are. I have related the data I have collected. It's probably not enough to draw conclusions from, but what the heck- this is the blogosphere.

If Photos would be helpful on the graininess/ what this blockiness is that I am talking about, I can shoot a few more illustrations. They may well have more to do with the encoder than they do the S3, so I hesitate to document these artifacts. I could also take some shots of the Crawford sequence so that comparison could be made with the file played on a computer.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

There seems to be two schools of thought on how folks can take matters into their own hands and get TivoToComeBack working now on their S3's.

One seems to be that you can socket your S3 and change the PROM code, then change the TivoToGo bits. The second method seems to be that the PROM step is unnecessary. 

Whichever party is correct, I think there are a lot of folks that would be interested in learning how to do the part about changing the TivoToGo bits to a,a,a. The rest of it- hard drive manipulation and how to socket an S3 need not be covered that stuff is well coverred in DDB.


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