# Patriot Media/Central NJ/Cable Cards/S3



## trlyka (May 21, 2003)

Anyone use Patriot? Did you set up an appointment to receive a cable card for your S3?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

changed from directv to cable last week. I had triple play installed but they use contract installers and they wont permit them to handle the cablecards so you have to get a second appointment (which they seem to plan to charge me for but i plan to ***** about the bill when it comes since it's there fault a second truck roll was required.

I also am having my phone number ported from Sprint/Embarq (the local phone provider here in flemington). Sprint being prehistoric takes 15 days to cough up the number. That makes a mess becasue I have a work order in to port my number. Their system wont allow a second work order to get opened to install the cablecards untill the port is complete. I found the VP of operations email on teh website and asked him if he could help me out and he was really responsive (emaimling me back over the weekend on his blackberry) and they found a way to override the system for me and get me an install today.

On to the install:

Basically went ok. The installer put both cards in at once and had the head end hit them both at once. I'm not positive but I think that's a nono. They first card took but nothing but the local HD's were turned on. So the installer had to call back and get the authorization sent for those. THen I checked the second card and it hadn't "paired" at all and refused even to give channel banners (the first card would give channel banners but no picture before they authorized it.) I suspect the tivo can only pair one at a time so when they sent the signal for both at once the tivo only locked on to the first one. He called and they send whatever signal again and all is now well.

So dont let the guy leave until you make sure all your channels are activated on both tuners.

settings>cablecard, remote, devices>cablecard decoder>configure card 1 <or 2> (only becomes active after they are installed > test channels> then navigate through them all.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

My appointment is on Tuesday Oct 3rd. I'm very irritated they require a truck roll to do this. I know the installer is going to take one look at my system and say "You put the card in." That's what they did when the installed the cablebox years ago.

(waiting not so patiently)


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## trlyka (May 21, 2003)

I work in CS at Patriot and I have been trying to get some more information on our cable cards. I only know that they are made by Motorola. I will try to get more information. In the past few days I have been getting a little feedback on any installs we do for cable cards with the Tivo S3. I work closely with the girl who schedules the appointments so I asked her to tell me of any issues the customers call her about after the install of cable cards in a Tivo S3. So far it's mostly been about not receiving certain HD channels on the 2nd card. The cable card product is still fairly new. Now with the tivo S3, we are learning a whole new aspect of using the card. So I'm sure there will be certain issues as we go along.

I'm happy to hear we were able to get you the appointment for the cable cards before the porting of your phone number. We are typically unable to schedlue 2 different 'Service change' work orders at the same time. Usually one needs to be completed before another is opened. The cable card situation is a little different. We have a limited amount of techs that can actually install the cards. This is why we can't install them on the fly like a cable box or modem. Don't count on the install fee to be waived. It's a standard fee that all cable card installs have.

I can't wait to get my first S3. I have been a Tivo user since the Series 1 came out. 7 or 8 yrs ago? And have since pruchased 3 more series 2 Tivo's since. I was happy when I was able to get the Motorola HD dual tuner boxes, but I will eventually replace them for the Tivo S3.



MichaelK said:


> changed from directv to cable last week. I had triple play installed but they use contract installers and they wont permit them to handle the cablecards so you have to get a second appointment (which they seem to plan to charge me for but i plan to ***** about the bill when it comes since it's there fault a second truck roll was required.
> 
> I also am having my phone number ported from Sprint/Embarq (the local phone provider here in flemington). Sprint being prehistoric takes 15 days to cough up the number. That makes a mess becasue I have a work order in to port my number. Their system wont allow a second work order to get opened to install the cablecards untill the port is complete. I found the VP of operations email on teh website and asked him if he could help me out and he was really responsive (emaimling me back over the weekend on his blackberry) and they found a way to override the system for me and get me an install today.
> 
> ...


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

Why does Patriot require a tech to install a cablecard? Based on the information available to me it sounds like a relatively simple list of instructions: 

1. Connect RF cable to Cable In. 
2. Write down serial numbers from each CableCard 
3. Insert card 1 into slot 1, wait until CableCard MMI screen appears. 
4. Call Cable to activate/initialize the card. 
5. Test channels to verify that the card has been activated. 
6. Repeat steps 3 though 5 for the second cablecard. 

Why can't I stop by the Patriot office and just pick up a pair of cards? Why make me wait over a week and charge me $20 for an install where I'm sure I'll do most of the physical work?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I doubt the poster above gets to make such decisions. She/he is just trying to be helpfull.

I went to the office and they wouldn't hand out the cards. I emailed the VP of operations and they wouldn't hand me the cards. So asking a CSR isn't going to get you the anser you want.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

I don't really expect an answer from the CSR. Mostly I wanted to vent my frustration.

I'm sure Patriot is actually trying to provide better service by sending a tech, who is at least somewhat familiar with the possible issues and can troubleshoot and communicate with the home office. Sending a tech better serves most of their customers who would be in over their heads dealing with self-install, and then flooding their call center with complaints. 

Since I am a very technically oriented person, so I am the exception rather than the rule to most of the customers they support, but it irritates me to have to wait for something I could do myself. I'm less concerned about the $20 fee (I bought a Series 3 after all) than I am about the wait for the appointment. 

If you still have it handy, can you PM me the email of the VP you mentioned? I'll send him an email as well.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

trlyka said:


> I work in CS at Patriot and I have been trying to get some more information on our cable cards. I only know that they are made by Motorola. I will try to get more information. In the past few days I have been getting a little feedback on any installs we do for cable cards with the Tivo S3. I work closely with the girl who schedules the appointments so I asked her to tell me of any issues the customers call her about after the install of cable cards in a Tivo S3. So far it's mostly been about not receiving certain HD channels on the 2nd card. The cable card product is still fairly new. Now with the tivo S3, we are learning a whole new aspect of using the card. So I'm sure there will be certain issues as we go along.
> 
> I'm happy to hear we were able to get you the appointment for the cable cards before the porting of your phone number. We are typically unable to schedlue 2 different 'Service change' work orders at the same time. Usually one needs to be completed before another is opened. The cable card situation is a little different. We have a limited amount of techs that can actually install the cards. This is why we can't install them on the fly like a cable box or modem. Don't count on the install fee to be waived. It's a standard fee that all cable card installs have.
> 
> I can't wait to get my first S3. I have been a Tivo user since the Series 1 came out. 7 or 8 yrs ago? And have since pruchased 3 more series 2 Tivo's since. I was happy when I was able to get the Motorola HD dual tuner boxes, but I will eventually replace them for the Tivo S3.


I assume you mean Joanie? She is very nice. (i'm sure she knows who I am- how many Michael K.s that got the VP involved with their install in the last week can their be-LOL)

But you can watch me ***** about the install fee- LOL. I know you guys dont make the rules so I wont be rude to the CSR's but I will ask that it get waived and then escalate the situation if the CSR cant.

The price list says that cablecard installs are free on the same trip. It wasn't my fault that patriot sent out an installer who was not qualified to do it in one trip. 21 dollars wont kill me but I really find it unpleasant to pay becasue it was patriots decision to use 2 different techs - not mine. I specifically told the CSR when I ordered that I wanted triple play with one sd STB, one HD STB, and 2 cablecards. Patriot sent out a guy unqualified to install the 2 cablecards- not me.

I think the problem with the second card not getting the channels correctly is they "hit" the second card before the first one was done doing whatever it does. The installer called in and had them "hit" the first card. it took and the tivo then goes into a screen with a swirl that says somethign like "acquiring channel information" it takes around 5-6 minutes to do that. Midway through that the installer and 'dispatch' decided totry and hit the second card. I GUESS that the tivo wont pair with the second card while it's busy dealing with the first card getting the channel list from patriot. You might want to suggest to Joanie or "dispatch" to tell the techs to let the first card finish 'acquiring channels' before they hit the second card. I think that might solve the problems with the second card.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cassiusdrow said:


> I don't really expect an answer from the CSR. Mostly I wanted to vent my frustration.
> 
> I'm sure Patriot is actually trying to provide better service by sending a tech, who is at least somewhat familiar with the possible issues and can troubleshoot and communicate with the home office. Sending a tech better serves most of their customers who would be in over their heads dealing with self-install, and then flooding their call center with complaints.
> 
> ...


sorry dont have the email handy, but it's floating around their website someplace.

They are very responsive and nice so just drop him a note (unlike many complanies you dont need to get a nasty tone to get somethign done- very pleasant indeed)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cassiusdrow said:


> ....
> 
> I'm sure Patriot is actually trying to provide better service by sending a tech, who is at least somewhat familiar with the possible issues and can troubleshoot and communicate with the home office. Sending a tech better serves most of their customers who would be in over their heads dealing with self-install, and then flooding their call center with complaints.
> ....


I agree- i think their motivation is good. But I think most of the issue is they just dont have much experience on their end with the cards. SO they need to learn before they can let the end users try.

One women handles all the cablecard installation requests, only a limited number of techs are permitted to install, and i didn't get the feeling that every one in "dispatch" knew how to send the commands to the cards since the installer asked for a specific guy. So I just think they dont quite feel 100% comfortable on their end yet.

I get the sense that maybe they only do 5-10 cards a day at this point, so it's possible they've installed some tiny nuymber only in the hundreds or low thousands 100's at this point. (there was a blurb on their website that they only jsut hit their 50,000 broadband and 5,000 phone customers. I would GUESS the cablecard rate is much much lower than either of those.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

The Patriot tech was here this morning for under an hour and the cards are installed. The first card was bad so he had to swap it out, but the next two cards were fine. Another a small hitch was that the HD Plus tier of channels was not authorized, so the cards had to be hit again. The tech said he had done 3 or 4 other Series 3 installs and he did seem familiar with process outlined by the TiVo package inserts. He was aware that the 161-4 error was nothing to worry about and was thorough in checking that the TiVo could see all subscribed channel tiers on both cards. 

So, other than having to wait 8 days for the appointment, I am very pleased.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

curious was it an african american fellow?

I'm wondering if they have one guy that does them all since they are so small.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

No, he was caucasian. I'd be surprised if they only had one tech that does cablecard installs - it's never a good idea to have only one person who knows how to do something important to the company. But it seems reasonable that they would only have a few techs who can do it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

they are such a dink i thought it possible.

If joanie is out of the office there is no one else you can talk to in order to get an appointment scheduled. 

Did he ask for "uni" when he called in to activate the cards. I'm not sure if thats a job title or a guys name- curious...


Have to go back and correct my rant above paying for the install above- I went through the rate sheet again and it says nothing about free install same trip- only says that for HD boxes- so i guess there's nothing to complain about that they forced a second trip.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

I don't remember who he asked for when he called in, but he spoke to 3 different people. 

I'm having the "copy protection" issue that others on the forum have described. I scheduled two recordings at 3am, one on HDNET the other on INHD. When I checked this morning they had been recorded and deleted due to "copy protection". I checked the CCI settings on my cablecards and both were set to 0x03 (copy never). I am not happy. 

I've a called Patriot Media customer support about this, but they claimed this is not under their control. The CSR said he would email Joanie as she is not currently available and then he would call me back tonight by 9pm.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

I made some short recordings from the various HD channels and the following channels had copy protection enforced: 

UniversalHD, DiscoveryHD, INHD, INHD2, TNTHD, HBOHD, HDNET, HDNET Movies. 

And the CSR never called back.


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## jbarrie (Sep 17, 2006)

Some of you may be interested in my history. I was advised by Darlene, the original predecessor of "Joannie" the CC support person, that I was the FIRST non-TV set installation of a CC performed by Patriot in NJ. And yes, the bleeding edge turned out that way for all of us.
I had cable cards installed in my Panasonic HDTV and my Sony HDD500 PVR. I also have a Series 2 TiVo-140 that I STILL USE EVERY DAY. That lesson may interest some of you, with or without a Series 3. And, yes, I am looking hard at Series 3 for my next step, but I need some better news on Patriot's practices for the CCI problem.
What I can tell you is that the customer support that Darlene provided (and Joannie is likely to be the same level) was nothing short of superb. The technical people behind her were also excellent. The home installers visited me a half-dozen times, and included one excellent and knowledgeable Caucasian, and also a splendid installer, young to me, African American, who was a true pleasure to work with. He helped me several times. There were several more CC installers, as of 12 months ago.
The Piscataway office and their support is great. I confess, that in one chapter, I persuaded the folks to let me reinstall the card for myself without an installer. I can assure you, it's not painless. It turned out in the end that one of my cards was faulty. That's lesson one. The Motorola cards have a significant fail rate at installation. This was a Ptriot-wide experience at that time.
Lesson 2, was of course, the CCI setting for all the "plus" and "premium" package channels. This prevented my very zealous Sony HD DVR from recording any program on HD channels such as ESPN, Universal and above. That condition is still true. I have diabled the premium+ channels from everything except my STB. I study this forum with interest, because that's also what holds me back from getting a Series 3. Darlene made great efforts to explore the cause of the CCI setting. The last answer I got in spring this year (just before her promotion) is the same as the last post. "Not under Patriot's control." PLEASE let us all know if someone finds the fix for this!
Lesson 3 is disturbing, HD programs for CBS & NBC at random days (every week or two) fail to record for the same CCI setting reason. To a lesser extent this also occurs for ABC. If you review the AVS forum, you'll find an opinion that this is the result of a faulty operation in a provider, and can also occur because of a failure that scrambles the CCI data somewhere in the transmission path. For example, this blockage occurred on 50+% of West Wing episodes, so don't underestimate the aggravation factor, here.
Lesson 4, back to good news, HDTV is absolutely superb. You REALLY DO get so spoiled you don't want to look as an SD program again. At first, I was really sorry about my Series 2, because its interface & functionality as a PVR was/is far better than anything else in the marketplace. That's the one I wanted to use, but it isn't an HD recorder.
Lesson 5a: Patriot has packaged the STB into your service fee. If you return it because you don't need it, you don't get a reduction in fee. So, why return it? That's rhetorical, by the way.
Lesson 5b, well, HD on Series 2, kind-of. The Series 2 displays outstanding imagery for the little TiVo introduction screen and jingle, when you restart it. Perhaps you wondered why your TV programming is far less in quality. Of course, bandwidth s the answer, but the processor & disk work just fine with an HDTV monitor. Just for a lark, I set my TiVo Series 2 to control the STB (through infrared - since it's a cut down Motorola), and attached the TiVo to the TV with S-video (a measurable step down from DVI/HDMI, but there we are). I now record on the Series 2 lots of HD channel programming. The result amazed me. I record all programs in "best" quality. It's not real HD, but it's a jolly site better than the Series 2 does with ANY SD channel. Yes, you lose the Dolby5.1 sound, and have to put up with synthetic surround from your AV receiver (but a fiber-optic cable does help). Something else, the TiVo2 is quite untroubled by any CCI settings. Guess which channels therefore record without problem? Before anyone yells, I have emphasized that this is NOT real HD quality, but it's a great way for me to continue using my TiVo2 as something more than a door-stop.
This CCI problem has been solved by other cable companies. It's a shame that Patriot has been turning a deaf ear to some loud customer complaints for a full year now! COMCAST doesn't seem to have this problem. I'm sure Patriot can fix it, if they're motivated.
As I said at the start, Patriot customer and technical support has been superb. Sadly, the management team behaves like a mule with blinkers. Perhaps this story makes some of you nervous about signing up for the special 2-year service contract offer/bargain Patriot just offered you last month?


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## trlyka (May 21, 2003)

Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I was helping my Mom move the past couple weeks.

Your break down of the process is pretty much how it goes. The cable cards need to be programmed/matched up to your TV set. This is something that can only be done at the time of install. It's similar to programming a MAC address for a cable modem. It sounds easy enough, but it isn't always going to be as easy as it sounds. We want to make sure everything works. This is why we don't hand over the cards and then have to set up a service call when you call to ask why you can't get it to work. It's just easier and more efficient to have a tech do it for you. Perhaps when cable cards become common place, we won't require a tech visit or charge for installation.

HTH



cassiusdrow said:


> Why does Patriot require a tech to install a cablecard? Based on the information available to me it sounds like a relatively simple list of instructions:
> 
> 1. Connect RF cable to Cable In.
> 2. Write down serial numbers from each CableCard
> ...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

trlyka-

Thanks for takign the time to post

can you check into the copy protection issue with Joanie or direct us who we need to speak to. 

2 specific questions-

1) if other providers dont set their CCI to 00x03 for the premium channels (which casues recorded content to self distruct after 90 minutes) then why is patriot? From reading the otehr threads here on the issue seems that most providers have 00x02 set which allows the tivo to record but not save to VCR.

2) what is with the bogus random copy protection enabled on the boradcast channels- I had it happen to Jericho the othernight on WCBS-DT. I believe that is illegal according to FCC rules.


Luckily i can get philly OTA for broadcast channels so I'm using those for recording everything HD broadcast. But I'm going to dump the HD package and all my movie channels as they are basically worthless to me with the 90 minute limit.


(I cant wait to you get your series3 so you can report back to the higherups first hand what a mess the copy protection is!)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

jbarrie said:


> Some of you may be interested in my history. I was advised by Darlene, the original predecessor of "Joannie" the CC support person, that I was the FIRST non-TV set installation of a CC performed by Patriot in NJ. And yes, the bleeding edge turned out that way for all of us.
> I had cable cards installed in my Panasonic HDTV and my Sony HDD500 PVR. I also have a Series 2 TiVo-140 that I STILL USE EVERY DAY. That lesson may interest some of you, with or without a Series 3. And, yes, I am looking hard at Series 3 for my next step, but I need some better news on Patriot's practices for the CCI problem.
> What I can tell you is that the customer support that Darlene provided (and Joannie is likely to be the same level) was nothing short of superb. The technical people behind her were also excellent. The home installers visited me a half-dozen times, and included one excellent and knowledgeable Caucasian, and also a splendid installer, young to me, African American, who was a true pleasure to work with. He helped me several times. There were several more CC installers, as of 12 months ago.
> The Piscataway office and their support is great. I confess, that in one chapter, I persuaded the folks to let me reinstall the card for myself without an installer. I can assure you, it's not painless. It turned out in the end that one of my cards was faulty. That's lesson one. The Motorola cards have a significant fail rate at installation. This was a Ptriot-wide experience at that time.
> ...


do you know does the copty protection foul up the PVR (patriot dvr- moto box)?

I too am using an SD to record the HD's- Works really well - it's more like a widescreen DVD than HD but as you poitn out still way better than SD.

I would agree- their people seem great, I'm just not impressed with the companies "systems"


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## jbarrie (Sep 17, 2006)

I asked about this last fall. Darlene assured me that the Patmedia PVR takes no notice whatever of copy protection. I didn't smile any more than you probably aren't. 

Again, at the time, there was a lot of discussion on the AVR Forum site (for the Sony DD500) about the "conspiracy" of the cable companies to force customers to rent their low grade PVRs (forever, of course). 

I think the conspiracy theory is a bit much, but my evidence of falsehood would be for Patriot to fix this copy protect problem that there's no question that they've created. 

The harder I pressed, the more entrenched their management became. The temperature was pretty chilly by the time I gave up in mid Spring, this year. A little help from a bunch of you good folks would make some difference. I am sure I am the only person who protested.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> do you know does the copty protection foul up the PVR (patriot dvr- moto box)?


From everything I have read (including some CableLabs documentation), this type of copy protection only affects CableCARD products that are recording programs. Cablebox PVRs do not have to adhere to the CableCARD copy protection rules because they are not CableCARD devices and CableCARD devices that do not record are unaffected because they don't actually record anything.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cassiusdrow said:


> From everything I have read (including some CableLabs documentation), this type of copy protection only affects CableCARD products that are recording programs. Cablebox PVRs do not have to adhere to the CableCARD copy protection rules because they are not CableCARD devices and CableCARD devices that do not record are unaffected because they don't actually record anything.


have you found any laws regulations or rulings (dockets) from anyplace explainign what is and isn't allowed for the flags?

From what I gether the Memorendum of Understanding between Cable and CEA in 2002 said that the 90 minute BS flag was only to be used for VOD and PPV. And that in 2003 the FCC essentially blessed the agreement. But I cant find the regulation that made it so and i cant even tell if the FCC gave the whole MOU 'approval' or only the parts unrelated to copyright flags. I cant even find the text of the MOU anyplace.

I'ld like to have the facts so when I call/write to complain I can clearly point them to the appropriate place to show them what they are doing is wrong.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cassiusdrow said:


> I made some short recordings from the various HD channels and the following channels had copy protection enforced:
> 
> UniversalHD, DiscoveryHD, INHD, INHD2, TNTHD, HBOHD, HDNET, HDNET Movies.
> 
> And the CSR never called back.


anyone call back yet?


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> have you found any laws regulations or rulings (dockets) from anyplace explainign what is and isn't allowed for the flags?
> 
> From what I gether the Memorendum of Understanding between Cable and CEA in 2002 said that the 90 minute BS flag was only to be used for VOD and PPV. And that in 2003 the FCC essentially blessed the agreement. But I cant find the regulation that made it so and i cant even tell if the FCC gave the whole MOU 'approval' or only the parts unrelated to copyright flags. I cant even find the text of the MOU anyplace.
> 
> I'ld like to have the facts so when I call/write to complain I can clearly point them to the appropriate place to show them what they are doing is wrong.


I am not a lawyer, but the references to this that I found where in  Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 76, §76.1904. This reads to me as they are not allowed to limit copying on any programing that is broadcast over the air (NBC-HD and such should be set to copy freely), and they are only able to apply the "copy never" flag to Pay-Per-View and Video On Demand, which should allow pausing for up to 90 minutes. The DFast License and SCTE 41 also outline the CCI flags. They have violated both of these conditions.



MichaelK said:


> anyone call back yet?


I left a message for Joanie on Friday 10/06/2006. She returned my call about an hour later and she said she would speak to the engineers and call me back.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

thanks I got the same info in this thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4464292&&#post4464292

so i thin kyou are onto something.

I am emailign the VP again shortly and I plan to include the regulation and I'll post his answer.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

well I emailed the VP and have yet to hear anything. I included the link to the CFR and explained the way I read it was they were not in compliance with the regulation (I dodn't want to say breakign the law just yet). I was curteous and praised there great customer service and the great product compared to Directv but told him this cablecard issue was a major problem. 

I have been investigating some more and there is clearly a huge mess going on here.
besides the blocked channels listed above:
UniversalHD, DiscoveryHD, INHD, INHD2, TNTHD, HBOHD, HDNET, HDNET Movies by cassiusdrow and espn by jbarrie I also find it's on starzhd. I didn't check them all but the ones i checked were all set to 0x03. 

BUT MORE SCREWED UP is a random sampling of the all digital channels (101and above) shows the CCI flag is basically NEVER 0x00 (like it apparently should be on the retransmitted broadcast locals) but mostly 0x02 or even 0x01 which apparently is only supposed to be reserved for copy once that's already been copied- so that shouldn't be on any live tv show at all.

either their is a serious bug someplace in their headend, the moto cablecards, or the tivo, or they just have their whole headend set terrible wrong.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

I've also had random shows on NBCDT and ABCDT hit with the 0x03 copy never flag. This has stopped me from removing my season passes from my Pioneer 810 and S2. At least I'll still have the SD version if the flags are set wrong on the S3.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

where are you located? I'm in Flemington and use an antenna in my attic to get the philly stations so i dont have to deal with this mess for the broadcast networks. I silver sensor and a preamp works great from here. That's another option to get HD.

(I too have an S2DT and an 810 for SD- the S2 actually makes an alright picture if I record the HD channel from the moto box and then zoom it on my tv. IT's not HD but at least widescreen and somewhat better than SD)

I got nailed on CBSDT and WNETDT so dont trust anything from them (although I'm not sure the flag was 0x03 at the time or not)


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

I'm in Hillsborough. I haven't tried to setuping up an OTA antenna. I live in a townhouse and I'm not sure I'll get a clear enough signal from my attic. I'd like to buy locally so I can return it if it doesn't work, but I haven't found anyplace that sells them. I haven't really looked very hard though.

I've been using the same trick of recording the HD channels on the S2 box, it does look better than the analog channels.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'm in a townhouse in flemington and my antenna's in the attic. Circuit city at the somerville circle has the phillips brand silver sensor. You probably need a preamp though- circuit city might have one. If not, is there still a radio shack in the shopping center by amwell road and 206? IF not there is one here in flemington on 202 about 3 blocks south of the circle (accross from home depot) and i would guess the rat shack must have 'em. 

Patriot has most of the stuff you can get with antenna but there is something cool about getting 20 or 30 channels/subchannels all for free. Plus you'll get philly so if you are into sports you can get different stuff sometimes from the philly feed versus the NY affiliate.

There's a million varibles but if you can buy local and return i'd try it for sure.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

I'll check CC then. Thanks for the info. I have say the thought of running more wire to the attic doesn't thrill me. I spent several weekends running cat5 and coax and crawling around in the attic here sucks. And I've already filled up all the jacks behind my AV rack.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

looks like PERHAPS annoying the VP worked. Or the joanies engineers figured it out.

I'm still going through all the channels to see what's up but right now I set up a recording on HBOHD and it's FINE- no nuke flag. CCI is now 0x02.

Looks like they still have the 02 on NBCHD which is also wrong but just getting rig of all the darn 90minute self destructs is a huge huge plus!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i'll report back with the cci's for all the channels when i get a chance...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Patriot might be yoiung and learning but they ROCK.

all the HD channels are now CCI 0x02 

all is well. 

No one has gotten back to me to tell me what was up yet but looks like they fixed the erroneous 0x03 flags for sure.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> Patriot might be yoiung and learning but they ROCK.
> 
> all the HD channels are now CCI 0x02
> 
> ...


A recording from HDNET last night was not sticken with the "copy never" problem for the first time since the cablecards were installed so that is a good sign. But unless I hear something from Patriot, I'm sceptical that they actually did anything. It could have been the 8.0.1b update TiVo pushed yesterday.

Either way I'll take it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cassiusdrow said:


> A recording from HDNET last night was not sticken with the "copy never" problem for the first time since the cablecards were installed so that is a good sign. But unless I hear something from Patriot, I'm sceptical that they actually did anything. It could have been the 8.0.1b update TiVo pushed yesterday.
> 
> Either way I'll take it.


I forced the .b update last night and checked right after and there was no change at that point. So I THINK it was something on Patriots end. But I havn't gotten a reply either so cant be sure.


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## trlyka (May 21, 2003)

MichaelK,

I sent your questions on to a few different people that I thought might be able to answer. Here is the email:

My Original email and I included your questions....

Hi guys,

I belong to the Tivo Community forums. I started a thread regarding the Tivo S3 and our cable cards. I would like to get as much information on the cable cards as possible. I would also love to have a point of contact should a cable card question come up that I can't answer. Below is a post from one of our customers. This is an example of many questions people have. I appreciate your help on this. Thanks

The reply......

Tracie,

I will have to double check but I believe all of Patriots channels are set to Copy Once

Over the air channels are not encrypted by Patriot and therefore easy to pick to up with a digital tv. In fact, a cable card would not even be needed to pick up OTA digital channels.

Then I replied back......

Jim,

Is the question regarding the self destruct accurate? I think the concern is that they can't copy and save certain programs/channels. Especially the premium channels. I really don't understand how a program can self destruct. Or is it that it won't record anything over 90 min? Why would we limit a program to only be recorded once or not at all? Are we set for 00x03 or 00x02? I am not sure what this means except according to the person with the questions, I assume in one mode it allows you to copy and the other won't. Sorry for all the questions, but this is a big deal to Tivo users. I have several non Hi-Def Tivo units and will eventually purchase the S3.

Thank you

End of email...

You'll have to forgive my ignorance. I am not familiar with all the Tivo terminology used here 

I'll keep you updated the best I can as I get more information.



MichaelK said:


> trlyka-
> 
> Thanks for takign the time to post
> 
> ...


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

trlyka said:


> The reply......
> 
> Tracie,
> 
> ...


Tracie,

Thanks for you help with these issues.

The 0x03 notation is how the CableCard displays the CCI (Copy Control Information). The codes translate to:

CCI byte EMI values: 
0x00 - Copy freely (no restriction on copying) 
0x01 - Copy no more (this is a "copy once" after one additional copy has been made) 
0x02 - Copy once (only one additional copy may be made) 
0x03 - Copy never (no copies can be made, and recordings must be deleted after 90 minutes)

There are three issues:

1 - Premium channels (HBO, etc) and HD Plus channels (HDNET, INHD, etc) are set to "Copy Never" (0x03). "Copy never" is only permitted to be used on Pay-Per-View and Video On Demand according to  Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 76, specifically §76.1904, paragraph (b)(1). These channels can at most be set to "copy once" (0x02). It is possible that his issue has been resolved as both MichealK and I have been able to make recordings form some of these channels and they do not self-destruct as you put it.

2 - HD Channels for the local broadcast networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, etc) are set to "Copy Once" (0x02). Channels that are broadcast unencrypted over the air should always be set to "copy freely" (0x00) according to  Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 76, specifically §76.1904, paragraph (a).

3 - No channel should ever be set to "copy no more" (0x01). This is intended to be used in conjunction with "copy once" (0x02).


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

trlyka-

thanks for gettign involved. I emailed JG and although I havne't heard back I think he had someone work on it - since it was partially fixed last night. 

I learned alot more since my original post.

(I will preface this all with - "as best I understand")

Basically there are 4 possible CCI values for different restriction levels:

0x00 - do whatever you want (MUST be used for OTA- allowed for cable)
0x01 - copy no more (would be set by the tivo after copying a 0x02 below)
0x02- copy once (allowed for 'cable channels)
0x03- copy never (only allowed for PPV or VOD and causes content to self destruct in 90 mns)


Before last night many of the HD "cable" channels wer set to 0x03 (they are all listed above in the various posts but it's pretty much irrelevent now since they all seem fixed now). WHich was illegal. They changed all those to 0x02 so that was great.

MOST channels you guys have set to 0x02. WHich is totally fine for cable type channels. But apparently illegal for the rebroadcast locals. Even though though they fixed the 0x03's last night they still have the HD locals set to 0x02- that is not legal and they should correct it. Right now it's not a probelm for tivo- but if tivo gets MRV or TTG workign then it will be a big deal and there will be another uproar. ALso- I haven't checked the SD digital subchannels like weather plus and the like- but those probably need to be oxoo to be legal too.

Also- I havne't had time to go through each and every SD digital channel but you should tell them to double check those. (it takes forever with tivo to dig up the CCI on a particular channel so i just checked every HD and a few SD's) I happened to stumble along one channel 102 NikP is set to 0x01. That is not allowed for cable. They can only use 0x02 (or 0x00 for no restrictions). So there certainly could be others. That will absoultely make a mess for MRV/TTG. So they should probably check to make sure there are no other 0x01's- I only looked at maybe 10 sd channels and happened to see that one.

Incidently you might ask them why are they even setting everything to 0x02? If the content providers dont require it of you guys (and I doubt every single channel does) then you are just putting undue restirctions on your customers for no reason at all.

thanks agin for passing along my our concerns. You guys really are great how responsive you are.


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## trlyka (May 21, 2003)

Can you PM me the email address you sent your questions to? I will look into why you didn't get a reply. Thanks



MichaelK said:


> well I emailed the VP and have yet to hear anything. I included the link to the CFR and explained the way I read it was they were not in compliance with the regulation (I dodn't want to say breakign the law just yet). I was curteous and praised there great customer service and the great product compared to Directv but told him this cablecard issue was a major problem.
> 
> I have been investigating some more and there is clearly a huge mess going on here.
> besides the blocked channels listed above:
> ...


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## trlyka (May 21, 2003)

*Below is the response form our technical department after the last email I sent. It sounds like they are aware of a lot of the issues and are working to make any necessary adjustments on our end to help:*

Tracie,

Regarding the 90 minute self destruct complaints from customers, they are correct and I hope I have corrected the problem. I changed the CCI settings from (0x03) copy never to (0x02) copy once on several channels today. Sorry about taking so long to get back to you but, it took us quite awhile to verify this. Hopefully this will satisfy the problem with the TIVO series 3 customers. Could you check with some TIVO customers and see if this has helped and then get back to me. 

This still doesnt explain why some customers are having problems with OTA broadcasters. Apparently even though we dont even encrypt the HD networks coming out of NYC, the broadcasters themselves are able to set a broadcast flag to prevent copying in customer devices. After browsing through the tivo community thread it seems there were several customers (in different parts of the county) complaining about the inability to record the first show of Jericho. This is what makes me think it is a broadcaster limitation. I will try and find out more about this problem with the OTA broadcasters, but I believe that is beyond our control as we just pass these signals through to the customer and our controls are set to (0x00) copy freely. Here are some links you may find interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_flag

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=319525

*Let me know if this answers your questions/concerns. Also, he was asking if the adjustments he made helped the copy issue.

Thanks*


MichaelK said:


> trlyka-
> 
> thanks for gettign involved. I emailed JG and although I havne't heard back I think he had someone work on it - since it was partially fixed last night.
> 
> ...


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

Tracie, 

It does indeed look like the (0x03) "copy never" problem on at least some of the HD Plus channels has been fixed. I will try to spend some time over the next several days to check all the HD and digital channels for strange CCI settings.

Thank you very much for participating in this forum and for your assistance with this issue.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

tracie- you guys rock.

I verified last night that ALL the 0x03's were gone on all the HD channels.

I looked today and the 0x01 was corrected on that oddball nik channel and is now set to 0x02 which is legal. I'm guessing your engineers went though all the channels to check.

But can you ASK them to confirm the digital OTA broadcast channels are set to 0x0. As I am not seeing that on my end. On my box tHey all are 0x02. I checked all the HD network channels just now as well as some of the subchannels like WNETDT2 and NBC's weatherplus.

Also, if you can ask and they are allowed to answer- I'd like to reiterate- why are you guys setting everything to 0x02 anyway? If your contracts dont require it you are just putting unneccesary restrictions on your customers. One thing you could have your engineers lok into (maybe you guys are reading this now????) look into is cableric's post here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4470271#post4470271

bascially he says the latest version of the moto CAS system has a setting for externally defined such that your guys dont even need to set the flags themselves but can let the providers. Maybe they want to PM cableric and check with him, he seems very knowledgable and seems very open to help.

_edit:_ _I changed the above to refelct that I was seeing 0x02 on the broadcast channels. But it looks like others are seeing 0x00. So Patriot seems to be right on the ball on this.

Looks like the CCI values on the cablecard screens on the S3 dont necessarily reflect reality. See my post here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4482229&&#post4482229

as long as it's working and recording as it should I figure let sleeping dogs lie. We'll see what happens if/when MRV gets enabled if there are any restrictions or not...

I really cant help but say that patriot really rocks compared to directv and sprint/embarq - have a problem like this with either of those numnuts and see how far you get. Patriot seems to step right up and do whatever they can whenever there are issues._


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

Well I'm seeing a new issue now. I recorded Firefly off UniversalHD tonight at 7pm ET, and when I press info in the show description it says:

Restrictions: Due to the policy set by the copyright holder, this recording: Cannot be transferred to VCR, DVD, or any other media device. To learn more visit www.tivo.com/copyprotection.

This is different from the message that the "copy never" 0x03 flag displays. I don't know what the CCI flag was during the recording, but because it says it cannot be transferred (copied) I'll guess that it was 0x01 (copy no more).

I've also seen this on shows from HDNET and TNTHD. But there are also shows from those channels that do not have this message.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I am not positive- but i think that's a macrovision flag- i'm under the impression that the CCI just stops digital copies?

change to the channels now and see what the CCI is, just to be sure. I think a glitch might casue a failsafe 0x03 but to get a CCI of 0x01 they would need to manualy set that.

Could be just a specific show pushing that flag but that sounds odd.

But maybe- why dont you go ahead and add them to the list in http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4482615#post4482615

and maybe some others are getting nailed on those shows on other providers and we can see if maybe it's the station sending that flag.


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## cassiusdrow (May 21, 2003)

Tracie, 

Can you tell me if Patriot Media does analog-digital simulcasting (ADS) of the analog channels (2-99)? Meaning if a user just plugs the cable into their TV and tune channels 2-99 they get analog channels, but when a user with a digital cablebox tunes the cablebox to channels 2-99 they get a digital feed instead. 

The reason I ask is that the CableCARDs are delivering analog channels for 2-99, and if digital versions of channels 2-99 are available, I'd like the CableCARDs to deliver those channels.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i"m thinking they only have analog becasue the quality 1-99 on their own DVR are so bad compared to Tivo- that box must be encoding them itself at a really low bit rate. If they were digital that box would hopefully just record the digital stream and the quality would be better- equal to the 100-160's that are digital SD.

Just speculation though- would be nice to get an answer from someone who knows.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

prepare to assimilate-

resistance is futile...

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6430323.html?display=Breaking+News


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## mbernste (Apr 6, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> prepare to assimilate-
> 
> resistance is futile...
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6430323.html?display=Breaking+News


Comcast isn't that bad. You won't get the "home town" level of support, but they take customer service very seriously. I had them for years before I moved to Cablevision Land. When I got an HD box from them the tech went out of his way to get the right cables to hook it up with my old Series 2 TiVo.

You might lose the HDNET channels though.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

mbernste said:


> Comcast isn't that bad. You won't get the "home town" level of support, but they take customer service very seriously. ....


thanks for the feedback.

On the one hand - I was hoping that being a dink would mean they wouldn't do switched video anytime soon and I beleive I've read that comcast will be by year end- so that bums me. On the other hand if my S3's get cripled I guess I'll have the option of the comcastivo to rent- we are a motorola system and I think that's the box tivo is ready to do?

What's interesting to me is 
1) the home town service- 
RCN owned the system and a guy bought it from them for 3,100/sub in 2002. One of the first things the guy says he did to specifically make people realize this was not the shoddy service of RCN was to stop the outsourced call center and to beef up their own call center- I beleive they have doubled the number of CSR employees in the 5 years by getting rid of the outsourced call center. Seems comcast has some giant call center in Jabib and it's a nightmare to get a local person to talk to.

2) RCN ran the system into the ground it was analog only with 1-way cable modems when the guy bought it. The locals mayors used to literally stand up at town meetings and in the papers and tell people not to use cable but to get SBS.

He outbid "att broadband" (part of the current comcast) by paying 3,100 a sub or $345 million. Then he invested 70 million to rebuld the system. And now it's a shining example of how good a cable system can be- it was voted cable system of the year or some such in 2006. They apparently have the highest broadband penetration rate in the US from major systems that report such things. They have a very high triple play penetration rate. He completely turned it around.

Now just 5 years later he is getting over 6k/sub - the third highest ever paid per sub. Doesn't that show the idiot goliath's that if you invest in the system to give people a great product and great service that you'll make tons more? Why didn't ATT/Comcast just buy it themselves in 2002 from RCN and invest the money to make it good and then they would have had it for much cheaper?


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## jbernardis (Oct 22, 2003)

I haven't seen much activity on this thread in a while. I live in the patmedia area, but have directv. I am strongly considering switching to patmedia since weaknees has their killer deal on the S3. Does patmedia have all of the bugs worked out. Seems like so since all has been quiet here.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

after the first few weeks when they corrected their CCI issues and Tivo updated the software it's been smooth sailing. ONCE- I had to reboot when the tivo didn't see the cabelcard channels (couldn't tell you if it was tivo's software or patriots cablecards that were the issue-but the reboot fixed it all up right away).

In fact I have them coming out Friday to give me another 2 cards for my second series3.

I couldn't be happier with patriots pricing, service, quality, or options. Triple play just kicks butt plain and simple.

FWI- if you didn't see in the local papers- comcast is in the process of acquiring patriot- so that's something to be aware of for the future (honestly not sure if that's good or bad)


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## jbernardis (Oct 22, 2003)

Thanks for the reply.

I actually ordered two S3's - but instead of weaknees, I got them from TCS - got a much better deal. I'm eager to get them to give directv the boot.

I knew about the comcast acquisition - not sure if it's good or bad.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

It's a lot of fun to tell directv to bite you.

I enjoyed it myself!


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## krybka (Mar 25, 2005)

How long did it take to get the cable cards from PatMedia?

I can't stand the DVR that PatMedia gave me. I also have 2 DirecTV SD TiVo's. I am trying to decide whether I should get a Series 3 TiVo and use PatMedia or upgrade my DirecTV to HD.

Recommendations?

Thanks,

Ken


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## jbernardis (Oct 22, 2003)

I got my cable cards in about 2 weeks. I have no experience with the patriot DVR, so I can't comment. I know I didn't want to go that route when I saw the minimal capacity that the unit would have. Also, the quality of the non-DVR boxes I got from them bore out this concern. In addition to the cable cards, I got a digital box and a high def box - both of them as big as tanks. The hi-def box doesn't even have an HDMI connector and the digital box doesn't even have an s-video output. I can't believe they're putting out such poor quality devices. If these are any indication, the DVR must be truly terrible.

Incidentally, I have 2 series 3's for a total of 4 cable cards. The technician brought 6 cable cards with him, and needed every on of them because two of them were bad. Make sure they bring some extras.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i got my latest cable card install in 2 days after i called for an appt. it's hit or miss depending on when they can fit you in.

I had directv for like 6+ years before I went to patriot last year. I've been very happy with them. But Directv's new HD offering "coming soon" seems very compelling. I wonder what comcast is planning on doing. The one thing that really keeps me off directv though is the 2 year commitment- the way things are changing so much lately it's tough to commit to anyone for that long. With cable you can go and try it for a few months and if you want just walk away. 

on their boxes- I had one of their HD Dvr's for a few weeks, I also have had one of their HD boxes (it's exactly the same as their dvr except it has no drive that's why it's so giant.) The dvr wasn't so pathetic but i couldn't live with the tiny drive in it. All their equipment is the same models but different versions- If they drop an SD box without an SD output you can ask for one with S-video. Earlier HD boxes had DVI and the newer come with HDMI- you just need to ask if they give you the wrong one. They are very friendly and responsive (at least until comcast comes in and fires all the csr's and assimilates patriot into their call centers 1,000 miles away....)

Also keep in mind that since comcast bought them at some point tivo software on the moto rental dvr's is an option- probably not till 2008 but eventually...


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## jbernardis (Oct 22, 2003)

Has anyone purchased any of the sports packages from Patriot Media. When I switched from Directv a couple of months ago I was assured that I could watch NHL Center Ice on my cablecard devices. Well I just asked the question again when I was actually ordering the package, and they told me I could not watch on my cablecard device because it's a "pay-per-view" package and cablecard is only one way. 

Now I knew I would be unable to order with my remote, but I thought that I'd be able to watch a PPV program if I ordered it over the phone. Anybody have any experience with this?

Thanks


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## thomamon (Oct 17, 2003)

Just got my new HD Tivo and will be having the cards installed in about a week or two. Just curious tho, can I still order PPV's and use my WWE 24/7 with the TiVo box?


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## jbernardis (Oct 22, 2003)

thomamon said:


> Just got my new HD Tivo and will be having the cards installed in about a week or two. Just curious tho, can I still order PPV's and use my WWE 24/7 with the TiVo box?


Not sure about PPVs in general, but I purchased NHL Center Ice from Patmedia and it works fine - even though the first person I talked to said that it wouldn't work because I "could not watch PPV events with a cablecard device". I think you ought to be able to order PPV events via the telephone, but not with your remote.


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## thomamon (Oct 17, 2003)

jbernardis said:


> Not sure about PPVs in general, but I purchased NHL Center Ice from Patmedia and it works fine - even though the first person I talked to said that it wouldn't work because I "could not watch PPV events with a cablecard device". I think you ought to be able to order PPV events via the telephone, but not with your remote.


Nice, so you did it over the phone? Thats no big deal at all, as long as you can order it. I only order 1 PPV a month.

Now to find out if my VOD works, can't live without my WWE 24/7!


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## jbernardis (Oct 22, 2003)

thomamon said:


> Nice, so you did it over the phone? Thats no big deal at all, as long as you can order it. I only order 1 PPV a month.
> 
> Now to find out if my VOD works, can't live without my WWE 24/7!


Yes - I ordered NHL over the phone. PPV ought to work for you, but I think you're likely to have some problems with VOD.


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## thomamon (Oct 17, 2003)

jbernardis said:


> Yes - I ordered NHL over the phone. PPV ought to work for you, but I think you're likely to have some problems with VOD.


Not what I want to hear... I don't want to have a separate box for that although I dno't have a good feeling about it.


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