# LOST S03E02 "The Glass Ballerina" 10-11-2006 *spoilers*



## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

59 minutes till show. Following Rules.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Wow...with friends like this, who NEEDS enemies?


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Did they need to twist the knife with the Red Sox footage? That was just wrong.


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## yaddayaddayadda (Apr 8, 2003)

This episode had a weird feel to it. Didn't 'seem' like a Lost episode. Sayid gets tricked pretty easily for being military. How'd the Others get to the sailboat undetected?


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Jeebus, the lostpedia page is already updated with Ben's name.


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## raober (Sep 10, 2006)

Figaro said:


> Did they need to twist the knife with the Red Sox footage? That was just wrong.


Really? Had a MUCH sweeter taste for me...


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## reddice (Mar 6, 2004)

I don't understand how those others are the good people. They kidnapped the tailies without any reason why which we don't know yet instead of just approaching them. They attack them and then they kidnap Jack, Kate & Sawyer and work them like slaves.

I knew Sun sleeped with that man and when Jin beated the snot out of him I think he knew that he cheated on his wife. I don't beleve that man jumped of the ledge. I bet you Sun's father did it.

I liked how at the end they showed the events of 2004 and showed how the Red Socks won the series. They must have gotten permission from the FOX footage.

Next week should be good showing what happened to the hatch people.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

reddice said:


> I don't understand how those others are the good people. They kidnapped the tailies without any reason why which we don't know yet instead of just approaching them. They attack them and then they kidnap Jack, Kate & Sawyer and work them like slaves.
> 
> I knew Sun sleeped with that man and when Jin beated the snot out of him I think he knew that he cheated on his wife. I don't beleve that man jumped of the ledge. I bet you Sun's father did it.
> 
> ...


You never saw her sleep with him. She even said that she couldn't. For all we know she got cold feet before anything happened.


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## reddice (Mar 6, 2004)

True. I must have missed that. When they use subtitles it is harder to follow since they speak another lanuage and you have to read what they said.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Not enjoying this season's Others-centric plotlines at all. The breaking rock/ditch digging thing just made no sense.

About time Jin learned English.

Man, Trixie didn't last too long.

Sun's dad's goo-goo-googly eyes are going to creep me out for the rest of the night.

"We're not the enemy." "We're not the enemy." "We're not the enemy." "We're not the enemy." Over and over and over. If you're not the enemy then explain why. Jeez!


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## reddice (Mar 6, 2004)

I like how they are showing more on the Others. I shows that they are real meanies and during the season we should know how they got to be that way.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

I am really sick of the others always getting the upperhand. I know Sun shot her but still why were they not watching the dock? It was next to the fire!!!! And they did not come from the water because none of them were wet. Just plain stupid for Sayid to be taken like that.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Not enjoying this season's Others-centric plotlines at all. The breaking rock/ditch digging thing just made no sense.
> 
> About time Jin learned English.
> 
> ...


Sun's dad is quite the charmer isn't he?


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Not enjoying this season's Others-centric plotlines at all. The breaking rock/ditch digging thing just made no sense.
> 
> About time Jin learned English.
> 
> Man, Trixie didn't last too long.


Who says Trixie....I mean Colleen is dead? She gets shot, then the boat conveniently sails away, presumably back to the others camp. So I would say that there is a pretty good chance that she will recover. She is too good of an actress to not be a part of this show. Plus, she shot George Hearst!!! LOL


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

scottykempf said:


> Who says Trixie....I mean Colleen is dead? She gets shot, then the boat conveniently sails away, presumably back to the others camp. So I would say that there is a pretty good chance that she will recover. She is too good of an actress to not be a part of this show. Plus, she shot George Hearst!!! LOL


Or back to Hydra camp there is a doctor being held captive there.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I loved they way they put sawyer in the lab experiment cage, and then it turns out sawyer is making a real life experiment out of it, systematically testing their weaknesses. It's just too bad about the dang video cameras!

About Jae's "Jump"...At first, I thought it was Sun's dad or other henchman that threw him out the window. However, he was holding the pearl necklace. Not sure why he picked it up to begin with, but if he was thrown I would have expected a struggle, and I would have expected him to drop it in the struggle.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Pretty good episode. It does seem like Sun slept with Jae, but they could still be leading us to believe things. 

What I want to know (and I may have missed something because my feed froze up for a while) Did Sun's dad actually tell Jin that Sun was sleeping with him or was there another reason that Sun's dad had for Jin to go after him???


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I liked the episode. The Sawx footage was tough on an already tough day.

They mustve come from the water, but you're right, they seemed awfully dry. Perhaps they had a dingy. I cant imagine that Ben would ever let Jack or anyone go home. I wondered if he meant the other side of the island, or home for real


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

unicorngoddess said:


> Pretty good episode. It does seem like Sun slept with Jae, but they could still be leading us to believe things.
> 
> What I want to know (and I may have missed something because my feed froze up for a while) Did Sun's dad actually tell Jin that Sun was sleeping with him or was there another reason that Sun's dad had for Jin to go after him???


Sun's dad said he disrespected their family. He did not go into detail what that entailed. I'd bet that when Sun goes to tell him, he says he knew....

I'm looking forward to next week and getting more clarity


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> I loved they way they put sawyer in the lab experiment cage, and then it turns out sawyer is making a real life experiment out of it, systematically testing their weaknesses. It's just too bad about the dang video cameras!
> 
> About Jae's "Jump"...At first, I thought it was Sun's dad or other henchman that threw him out the window. However, he was holding the pearl necklace. Not sure why he picked it up to begin with, but if he was thrown I would have expected a struggle, and I would have expected him to drop it in the struggle.


Dude...I can't believe that ABC let that through. They had a pearl necklace on Lost? LOL


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

The best lines of the night, paraphrasing:

Sawyer: You taste like strawberries.
Kate: You taste like fish biscuits.


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## Ladd Morse (Feb 21, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I'm looking forward to next week and getting more clarity


 You're kidding, right?


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## tony touch (Jul 16, 2004)

Figaro said:


> Did they need to twist the knife with the Red Sox footage? That was just wrong.


Carlton Cuse is a huge Red Sox fan...I'm assuming he had some input on that scene!


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> About Jae's "Jump"...At first, I thought it was Sun's dad or other henchman that threw him out the window. However, he was holding the pearl necklace. Not sure why he picked it up to begin with, but if he was thrown I would have expected a struggle, and I would have expected him to drop it in the struggle.


I would have expected Jae to drop the necklace in the *fall*.

+1 on the dismay over The Others claiming NOT to be the enemies. Why torment and torture Kate and Sawyer then? Why even bother attempting to make Kate feel pretty in a new sun dress only to make her break rocks using a pick-axe? This is making no sense.

I'm also starting to wonder if Juliette is not more of a co-leader with Ben, as opposed to just one of Ben's underlings, or maybe we'll find out that there are a faction of the Others that are loyal to Juliette. (Colleen definitely didn't like Kate.)


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

One thing I didn't quite catch, how did the clip of Sun as a child and the whole glass ballerina fit into the story? The only thing I could make of it is how other people always suffer for Sun's lies. First the maid, then Jae. Her last lie (abou the trap) seemed less clear...who suffered? The girl she shot (who cares about her...she's one of the "good guys")? The whole group for losing the boat (they just got it, and who knows if they were going to do anything useful with it)? 

That just didn't seem very clear to me.


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## Grumpy Pants (Jul 1, 2002)

Figaro said:


> Did they need to twist the knife with the Red Sox footage? That was just wrong.


YANKEES CHOKED, YANKEES CHOKED AGAIN!!!!!!


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Grumpy Pants said:


> YANKEES CHOKED, YANKEES CHOKED AGAIN!!!!!!


Well I guess you would certainly be able to recognize a choker now wouldn't you?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

The other's can't have that much contact with the outside world. If they did, Colleen (I thought it was Connie) would have seen enough movies/tv to know that you never tell someone holding a gun "You are not a killer." That always causes them to shoot you.



reddice said:


> I don't understand how those others are the good people. They kidnapped the tailies without any reason why which we don't know yet instead of just approaching them. They attack them and then they kidnap Jack, Kate & Sawyer and work them like slaves.


 They also get these really sadistic smirks on their faces. It's one thing to do bad things because you feel like you have no choice. It's something else to enjoy it as much as they seem to.



cheesesteak said:


> About time Jin learned English.


 I think learning English in just over 2 months is pretty good, especially when no one's making much of an effort to teach him.



unicorngoddess said:


> Did Sun's dad actually tell Jin that Sun was sleeping with him or was there another reason that Sun's dad had for Jin to go after him???


 No. At the funeral, Sun asked if he was going to tell Jin, and he said "It's not my place to tell him."



jenhudson said:


> The best lines of the night, paraphrasing:
> 
> Sawyer: You taste like strawberries.
> Kate: You taste like fish biscuits.


That was the best line. I guess without Hurley, the best line of the night has to to to someone, so it's Kate.


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

Never mind the best line, the best 'moment' of this episode was Sayid's reaction to Jin 'knowing' how to work the gun. _Priceless_


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Loved the Red Sox footage.. Even more, loved how he said "No they were down three games to none, against the Yankees in the league championship, and then they won eight straight"... Something about his face when he started that line was priceless.. like a bit of humor quickly buried under the serious playing of the tape..

Sawyer feeling them out was great too.. Saw the look of confusion on his face - rewound too - and guessed it was some kinda failsafe..

The second (well, I guess third) thing we've seen from the outside world (the Red Sox game).. (The snow guys w/Penny was one, and the radio that Hurley and Sayid listened to was apparently another, now that we know there's really a real outside world).

I wonder if that's how Ben's convincing many of the people under him to keep doing what he says - he's promising to take them "home" (those of them not born there).

Once again, when we heard his full name, the deliberateness of them presenting a full name (first + last) still has me guessing that there's some elaborate word circle we could/should be doing out of all of their names (everyone ever mentioned on the show) to reveal some secret.. (we did see a word circle too - I think Shannon had it). Benjamin Linus. Maybe as a kid he was told ghost stories about a magnetism research hatch called the Swan..

Another interesting exchange:

JACK: If you could leave this island, why would you still be here?

BEN: Yes Jack. Why would we be here?

By the way, Jack looked more surprised that the Red Sox won the world series than he did in seeing a big hatch sticking out of the ground on a deserted island..

Anyone else think the Hydra station is a submarine? (That might be a smeek - didn't read any threads this summer)

I too thought it was Sun's dad that threw him over, until we saw the necklace.. Now I think he jumped. So Sun's thought since then (and still does maybe?) that Jin killed him? I don't think Jin's killed anyone yet, right? (Even the dog guy - he just beat the hell out of him, right? My wife seemed to remember him going back or something, and that vaguely rings a bell, but I'm not sure).

Was the point of the ballerina flashback just to show us how afraid of her father Sun was? (Or maybe also to warm us up to him slightly, in a bizarre way?)

So, the six screens Ben looks at are Jack, one of the cages, hallways in the hydra hatch, and some other indistinguishable camera shot? Those do look close together - and they are jumping from location to location.. and he did say they were very close. I dunno, maybe they're right off the shore and there's a big underground tunnel after all.. (or it's a submarine with video transmissions)

What's with the "break these rocks and move them over there" busy work?

Ben had NO idea they had a boat.. "HOW?".. So maybe he didn't know Desmond even existed.. (yet he knew everything about everyone on flight 815.....)..

Does he want that boat so he can get off the island? Are they stuck there? Or did he just want it away from them? He used to have the initial Others' boat that they gave to Michael.. It seems more compelling/interesting if they actually do have a reason to stay on the island, as he indicated to Jack.

That Danny guy (who's being a jerk to Sawyer/Kate) is gonna be really pissed that his girl Colleen got shot in the stomach..  

"I got a question, boss!"

So now Kate knows Sawyer's name..

I love how the cute blond girl they bring in to successfully break Jack can't even get Sawyer to drink from a canteen. 

And add Sun to the list of people that's shot someone now (don't know yet if she killed her).

When Sun woke up naked next to the hotel guy, I paused and told my wife that there had been arguments here as to whether they slept together or not, and that should settle that. Then I corrected myself and said that in actuality, I'll bet that someone says something like "well they were only naked.. maybe nothing happened!"... Figaro, it looks like that prize goes to you.  She slept with him - this one is that simple.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I liked the episode but was a bit upset that Kate didn't make a run for the jungle while Sawyer was whacking those guys. She is both a fighter and a runner...we have seen that in the past. 

So the others need Jack? To be a doctor for them? To figure out why they can't breed children and have to steal them? Maybe all the other doctors have gotten old and died.

The comment that Benrylinus made about being on the island all his life makes me think of two things - one that he had been Born there, but then I said, wait...maybe he was BROUGHT there as a baby (and many others were too) for experiments to see how raising kids like this would work and he is indocrinated to the life on the island. Mindwashed that their way is the right way.

One question, why do they need the boat? Ben or Colleen said something about it just sailing around in circles. Will it actually work for them?

Okay, I didn't read the post before me, I was typing this out. But it looks like we have similiar observations and questions.

Though I had forgotten the comment Ben made to Jack about getting off the island and Yes Jack why


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> When Sun woke up naked next to the hotel guy, I paused and told my wife that there had been arguments here as to whether they slept together or not, and that should settle that. Then I corrected myself and said that in actuality, I'll bet that someone says something like "well they were only naked.. maybe nothing happened!"... Figaro, it looks like that prize goes to you.  She slept with him - this one is that simple.


Funny I looked at my wife and said "someone won't bother to read the subtitles and just assume that this took place after sex was had." Looks like you win the prize


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Paperboy2003 said:


> They mustve come from the water, but you're right, they seemed awfully dry. Perhaps they had a dingy. I cant imagine that Ben would ever let Jack or anyone go home. I wondered if he meant the other side of the island, or home for real


As soon as he said home, I said out loud to my wife "home? what does he mean by home? the other side of the island? HOME home?".. The videotape answered that - he just offered Jack a way back to civilization..

(at which point he'll wake up from the coma he's in, and come back from purgatory.  )


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

interesting that Ben actually said he would take Jack home, as opposed to let him go home. Will Jack have a personal escort, or just be set free? If Ben has been on the island his entire life, and he's the ring leader, I can't see him leaving. A Michael/Walt like send off, maybe...but not taking Jack home. It's not sincere and I am betting that "home" is the other side of the island.


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## mojomom (Oct 6, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> When Sun woke up naked next to the hotel guy, I paused and told my wife that there had been arguments here as to whether they slept together or not, and that should settle that. Then I corrected myself and said that in actuality, I'll bet that someone says something like "well they were only naked.. maybe nothing happened!"... Figaro, it looks like that prize goes to you.  She slept with him - this one is that simple.


Yes! Thank you for saying that. People, this is ABC, not Cinemax. What more can they show you on network TV to convince you that THESE TWO HAD SEX.

To me it seemed like the affair had been going on for quite a while (paraphrasing Jae, "I don't want to share you any more.") and Sun was just now breaking it off. It seemed clear it had gone on during the course of their "English lessons."


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

hanumang said:


> Never mind the best line, the best 'moment' of this episode was Sayid's reaction to Jin 'knowing' how to work the gun. _Priceless_


Agreed - awesome scene.



Figaro said:


> Funny I looked at my wife and said "someone won't bother to read the subtitles and just assume that this took place after sex was had." Looks like you win the prize


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

It seems like this is getting kind of Clintonian.

I guess we don't know for sure that Sun had "sexual relations" with that man, but can we agree that she got naked and got in bed with a man that isn't her husband, and that's not generally something a married person ought to do?


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> It seems like this is getting kind of Clintonian.
> 
> I guess we don't know for sure that Sun had "sexual relations" with that man, but can we agree that she got naked and got in bed with a man that isn't her husband, and that's not generally something a married person ought to do?


Maybe she had hypothermia? He was just helping her warm up. Besides, that guy had to be gay.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> As soon as he said home, I said out loud to my wife "home? what does he mean by home? the other side of the island? HOME home?".. The videotape answered that - he just offered Jack a way back to civilization..
> 
> (at which point he'll wake up from the coma he's in, and come back from purgatory.  )


 Funny, during that scene, I wondered if they were hinting at heaven, the "eternal home."

But I think he did mean the US. Also, schekeNYK, Ben sure sounded like he meant he would personally escort Jack home. Stranger and stranger.


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## mojomom (Oct 6, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> As soon as he said home, I said out loud to my wife "home? what does he mean by home? the other side of the island? HOME home?".. The videotape answered that - he just offered Jack a way back to civilization..
> 
> (at which point he'll wake up from the coma he's in, and come back from purgatory.  )


This story is getting more Wizard-of-Ozzy all the time! The wizard will get back in the balloon and fly Dorothy home.

Jack will wake up and find ruby slippers underneath his hospital bed.

I think it's interesting to imagine the Others from the point of view that they've grown up on the Island. Explains part of their strange world view.

Juliet is really creeping me out with her erratic behavior. So seemingly sweet at times, yet standing there holding a gun to Kate. (The actress is good--the character is freaky, you know, like "Carrie."

She must be what we mean when we tell our kids, "Not all people who mean to harm you act like they are mean."


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Just to throw out a comment. Maybe a smeek.

The sole purpose of the busy work is to get Sawyer and Kate all hot and bothered for each other. Why else would they make her wear that dress while she works. They WANT them together. I seriously think they are mating them (as many others have said).

-Mike


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

mojomom said:


> Yes! Thank you for saying that. People, this is ABC, not Cinemax. What more can they show you on network TV to convince you that THESE TWO HAD SEX.
> 
> To me it seemed like the affair had been going on for quite a while (paraphrasing Jae, "I don't want to share you any more.") and Sun was just now breaking it off. It seemed clear it had gone on during the course of their "English lessons."


I've already deleted, but the subtitles lead you to believe that we come into the scene BEFORE they have done anything. Sun says she "can't" not that she "shouldn't have"


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> I guess we don't know for sure that Sun had "sexual relations" with that man, but can we agree that she got naked and got in bed with a man that isn't her husband, and that's not generally something a married person ought to do?


Right - what we saw is now past the "innocent just learning to speak english from a friend" possible explanation from last season.. Now at best it'd be "innocent just learning to speak english from a friend while naked in bed with them".

As to Sun's lies, we've now identified another one..



> JIN: If I can't -- how can there be a baby?
> 
> SUN: I swear to you, Jin, I have never been with another man. That is the truth.
> 
> ...


"been with".. Yeah, it was in the context of explaining how she's possibly pregnant... ..but still, that's quite a statement to make, when you've actually lied down in a hotel room's bed, naked, with another person, behind your spouse's back (and kept it secret). I'd love to take that necklace.. ..but then he'd find out! At the very least, it's a huge lie of omission.

As a side note, I thought back to the pregnancy test episode where Jack told Sun the tests were pretty accurate. He told her she should tell Jin the truth - and the _whole_ truth.. Now in retrospect Jack's comment is more interesting, since we know how much he was burned by having his wife cheat on _him_.



mojomom said:


> Yes! Thank you for saying that. People, this is ABC, not Cinemax. What more can they show you on network TV to convince you that THESE TWO HAD SEX.


The directors cut of this episode will clarify it.. They'll insert a scene where she sits up and says "Wow, that was very satisfying sexual intercourse that the two of us just had right here and now, behind my husband's back. I have betrayed him! Thank you for making love to me."


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

mostman said:


> Just to throw out a comment. Maybe a smeek.
> 
> The sole purpose of the busy work is to get Sawyer and Kate all hot and bothered for each other. Why else would they make her wear that dress while she works. They WANT them together. I seriously think they are mating them (as many others have said).
> 
> -Mike


they already know that kate has a soft spot for sawyer. the closer they become, the easier it is to play them.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

They certainly did have Alex very curious at the end of last season how the baby was.. Maybe she was in the cage across from Carl, and they had her in that dress to get Carl all hot and bothered.. Maybe he knocker her up, and they brought her into that medical hatch and took her baby (she certainly seemed to want to save Claire from that fate).

Now that that's done (or that they can't find her, or are done with her, or something), they're trying Sawyer/Kate as was just suggested a post or two ago (and earlier).

Who knows what's in those fish biscuits.. maybe an aphrodisiac.. Then again, they really wouldn't need aphrodisiacs in this case..


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

2nd time today the Yankees went down in flames!


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

5thcrewman said:


> 2nd time today the Yankees went down in flames!


Going to assume your comment was not about the plane crash.

I'm from Boston and all - but thats a bit much.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

This just in - the Extreme Bad Taste Posting Award goes to ...


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Wasn't there a comment about the Red Sox that Jack's dad made in Season 1? I want to say while in the bar with Sawyer, but I could be way off.

Sayid's plan was asinine. It was like a bad Saturday Western - "We'll wait here, and ambush 'em at the pass!" And hey, Lone Ranger - Tonto over there may know more English than you think, but you'll still need to coordinate a PLAN once the bad guys - er, Others - show up. Very lame.

They set up a fake village just to fool Sayid, and he still underestimates them. Fool! Do not underestimate the power of the Dark Side of the Others!  

Kate's new nickname - Shortcake.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Delta13 said:


> Wasn't there a comment about the Red Sox that Jack's dad made in Season 1? I want to say while in the bar with Sawyer, but I could be way off.


Yes - Jack's dad talking to Sawyer:



> Some people are just supposed to suffer. That's why the Red Sox will never win the damn series


And Sawyer repeated it to Jack on the island - which made Jack pause.

Update: Quote can be found here:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0636288/quotes

-Mike


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## spelcheker (Nov 5, 2002)

Comeon people!!

SUN  Threw him out the window. Sheesh. 

Edit: And oh yes, my theory of the old lady at the door in ep01 being Benry's mom is looking good.


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## AstroDad (Jan 21, 2003)

5thcrewman said:


> 2nd time today the Yankees went down in flames!


wow, i just don't get people


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

5thcrewman said:


> 2nd time today the Yankees went down in flames!


WOW, that's just wrong.

At any rate, I took the flashbacks to show Sun's ability to be a bad girl and tell a lie to protect herself and also show her history of lying (right up to lying to Jin about Sayid's intentions with the fire).


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Yikes. Thanks for the Deadwood spoiler. 

This episode gave us some answers, without adding too many new questions.

Yep, Sun cheated. If your S/O is naked in bed with another person they've crossed that line.
Yes, they have contact with the outside world.
At least one of the Others have been on they island their entire life.

Of course, you need to believe Benry for the last two to be true.

I'm wondering how accurate Sawyer and Kate's assessment of the Others' capabilities are. The Others have been good at tricking the Losties into "misunderestimating" them.

I think the Others are dividing the Losties into "good" and "bad." They've already decided Sawyer and Kate were bad. They're still trying to figure Jack out - will he take Benry's orders?

Also, Hurley - and now Jin, Sun & Sayid - are trying to find their way back to Lost Beach from the dock. They've never travelled that path before - who knows what they'll discover?


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

atrac said:


> WOW, that's just wrong.
> 
> At any rate, I took the flashbacks to show Sun's ability to be a bad girl and tell a lie to protect herself and also show her history of lying (right up to lying to Jin about Sayid's intentions with the fire).


And to _still_ lie even knowing that someone else (the maid) will suffer for it.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

It does show that Sun can lie. 

Although I didn't think she'd be cheating with Jae. I thought he was in love with some woman he met in the US. 

I believe that the rock bit with Kate and Sawyer is to wear them down and make them more susceptible to whatever nefarious plan the Villagers have. 
And that's why Kate didn't fight back. It seemed obvious to me that she was getting pretty tired swinging that pickaxe when Sawyer decided to lay one on her.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

The Others *clearly* have contact with the outside world - Bush reelection, Reeves death, and for the clincher - the actual FOX broadcast of the final out of the 2004 World Series! Which only happened a month prior to the stated date (Red Sox won on 10/27, Benry says it is now 11/29) so the tape didn't come on the slow boat.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

With Jae's death, this would also seem to poke a hole in the theory that he is the future child's father. Unless these events happened right before Sun and Jin left, but I didn't catch or see a date reference.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Delta13 said:


> The Others *clearly* have contact with the outside world - Bush reelection, Reeves death, and for the clincher - the actual FOX broadcast of the final out of the 2004 World Series! Which only happened a month prior to the stated date (Red Sox won on 10/27, Benry says it is now 11/29) so the tape didn't come on the slow boat.


I don't even understand why this would be a point of contention.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Delta13 said:


> The Others *clearly* have contact with the outside world - Bush reelection, Reeves death, and for the clincher - the actual FOX broadcast of the final out of the 2004 World Series! Which only happened a month prior to the stated date (Red Sox won on 10/27, Benry says it is now 11/29) so the tape didn't come on the slow boat.


Or he could have taped it they probably have access to television.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> One thing I didn't quite catch, how did the clip of Sun as a child and the whole glass ballerina fit into the story? The only thing I could make of it is how other people always suffer for Sun's lies. First the maid, then Jae. Her last lie (abou the trap) seemed less clear...who suffered? The girl she shot (who cares about her...she's one of the "good guys")? The whole group for losing the boat (they just got it, and who knows if they were going to do anything useful with it)?
> 
> That just didn't seem very clear to me.


I think it shows that Sun lied to her father, which makes her not trustworthy in his eyes and it secondarily shows that she can lie in general (ie. to Jin).

I don't think that Sun slept with the other dude. Why else would she say "I can't." Can't what? Can't cuddle after sex?

The ballerina bit setup the fact that Sun's father can't trust her. If she didn't have sex with the english guy (which I'm not convinced she did), there is no way she could have conviced her father that "nothing happened" in order to save the English teacher no matter how far fetched it seemed since they were in bed. If she had been a truthful child then perhaps her father would have more reason to believe her no matter how extenuating the circumstances are.

I do think that the English teacher killed himself in shame, hence the pearl necklace. If her father had done it the would have likely showed Jin looking up and seeing a figure in the window or something.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Anybody want to take up a collection for Christmas gifts for the staff and cast? I figured this would work well for all of them:


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

dswallow said:


> Anybody want to take up a collection for Christmas gifts for the staff and cast? I figured this would work well for all of them:


This could quite possibly be the funniest thing you've ever posted.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

audioscience said:


> I don't think that Sun slept with the other dude. Why else would she say "I can't." Can't what? Can't cuddle after sex?


Her line probably means, "I can't do this anymore." It's emphasized that the affair has been going on for some time when Jae says that he didn't want to share her anymore. C'mon, people, stop analyzing TOO deeply in things that are already presented obviously. The producers don't have to spell every single thing out. We're not that dumb as a country, are we?

I don't think Sayid's plan was that dumb. I think he just forgot that the Others have a boat from the attack on the raft.

Looking forward to next week's episode when the focus moves back to the Exploding Hatch Aftermath. I love how they're taking their time in telling the story carefully. It's feeling more and more like a novel. For those of you who are arguing that the producers don't know where they're going/doing, the careful measurement of elapsed time suggests otherwise.

It's amazing that last year's subplot with Benry in the Hatch only occurred *last week* in Lost time. It's been a hell of a two months and then some for our Lostaways.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Anybody want to take up a collection for Christmas gifts for the staff and cast? I figured this would work well for all of them:


What's disappointing? What are you expecting from Lost that they haven't given you so far? The story hasn't been wrapped up yet. We're not even halfway through the season!


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

dswallow said:


> Anybody want to take up a collection for Christmas gifts for the staff and cast? I figured this would work well for all of them:


He looks hot, especially with the tatoo. Would love to see his face.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

tewcewl said:


> What's disappointing? What are you expecting from Lost that they haven't given you so far? The story hasn't been wrapped up yet. We're not even halfway through the season!


Yeah, sorry dswallow, I gotta agree w/tewcewl here.. Not sure what format you'd like for the show.. If it's one of these wrap-up-every-question-within-a-week shows you're aiming for, then wow - there are a lot of boring shows like that to pick from - watch one of those.

It's all about the journey, not the destination. If you're not enjoying the journey, you sure won't like the destination, since the destination is usually anticlimactic in mystery shows like this, in that the fun part (the mystery) is over.

The only thing I didn't like was that the hour went by too fast - if anything, I want more of the same. So I guess you could say I'm disappointed too from that perspective - but that's different than your disappointment.

Sorry you're not enjoying it (even this season).  
..Jeff


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I'm amazed how many fanboys of this show can't take even a single post of criticism. I'm in no way suggesting every show has to be any sort of neatly packaged complete wrapped-up-by-the-end story. But all that's going on these days is the writers are playing with everyone jsut tossing in random stuff to find, making odd connections between things and basically doing little more than adding fuel to this whole viral advertising concept for the show.

The entire premise of the show is becoming nothing more than trying to see how little they can reveal about the entire premise of the show. No matter how much "real time" has passed for the characters, this is the THIRD YEAR for the viewers. This was the FIFTIETH one-hour episode of the show.

There's been no progression of anything with this story. It may as well be a daytime soap at this point.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Oh dear GOD I can't help myself...

Best line from _next_ week:



Spoiler



"Whoa! Dude... the hatch blew off your underwear."



Greg


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## Uncle Briggs (Sep 11, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> Loved the Red Sox footage


As a Cardinal fan I would have prefered not to relive that moment.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

dswallow said:


> I'm amazed how many fanboys of this show can't take even a single post of criticism.


Hey, post all the criticism you want.. the problem isn't that I or others can't "take" it, it's that we're wondering if we're watching the same show as you.



dswallow said:


> I'm in no way suggesting every show has to be any sort of neatly packaged complete wrapped-up-by-the-end story. But all that's going on these days is the writers are playing with everyone jsut tossing in random stuff to find, making odd connections between things and basically doing little more than adding fuel to this whole viral advertising concept for the show.


Name ten "random" things they're adding, and we'll come back to this thread later in the season to see how many of them were random.. (I'm serious).. TV Shows where things are neatly wrapped up have the property that everything mentioned is usually directly used within that episode.. Shows like Lost that lay story lines down a season ahead of time have lots of details in them that seem random at times, but pay off in the end when you can say "they told us about that a whole season ago! cool!".



dswallow said:


> The entire premise of the show is becoming nothing more than trying to see how little they can reveal about the entire premise of the show. No matter how much "real time" has passed for the characters, this is the THIRD YEAR for the viewers. This was the FIFTIETH one-hour episode of the show.


And again, this is just where I (and presumably others like me) have trouble identifying with you on this point because I for one have watched a _hell of a lot_ of story happen in those first two years.. (questions initially being posed, time passing with hints dropped, and then complete answers given).

Others in previous posts have done a much more thorough job giving examples, but at the very least, we learned in the first two seasons that:
There are other people on the island
People are seeing things on the island
Multiple people have seen the same thing (e.g. horse)
Floating black smoke that can project images exists
A polar bear was on the island - and we know why
There's the possibility that there's a sickness/disease
There's a vaccine for that disease, maybe
An old wooden ship exists deep within the island
Many of the characters in the show have significant problems in their lives to work out
Many of the characters in the show have killed someone before or after arriving on the island
The island had a metal hatch buried beneath the dirt, which was found by Locke.
That hatch had a person in it, who entered a code every 108 minutes.
That hatch had supplies, records, an orientation video, and artificial light.
That hatch had concrete poured within it, blocking off half of it.
Metal was attracted to the walls in that hatch.
There are blast doors in the hatch.
There is food in the hatch.
The hatch might be involved in "saving the world".
Other people survived the same crash, and landed on the other side of the island.
Yet another group of people were already on the island before the crash.
Pushing the buttons in the hatch did indeed do something.
Not pushing the buttons caused an earthquake and crashed a plane.
The "Other" people on the island have a boat, yet are on the island.
There are OTHER hatches, not just the one found in the ground.
There is video surveillance of at least the hatches.
A group called Dharma existed.
Every once in a while, something called a Lockdown occurs that causes the blast doors to drop, while supplies are dropped from the sky.
Traveling away from the island by boat brings you right back to the island (quite reliably).
The outside world still exists.
The savage "other" people on the island aren't actually savage - they wear disguises.
They make lists of people to take (and have claimed that those are lists of "good" people)
They capture people and hold them against their will.
A french woman, who changed a radio transmitter to send a distress call, had her daughter taken when she was a baby.

Those are just some of the things that have happened _*on the island*_, which is only half of the story.. We've learned lots about each character's background, from the regional collection supervisor of a box company to the drug dealer.. Their back stories have also related directly to what's happening to them on the island. And we're watching almost all of the characters grow/change as a result of their stay on the island.



dswallow said:


> There's been no progression of anything with this story. It may as well be a daytime soap at this point.


Ok.. Just in the past two weeks, we've learned that the people we called Others live in houses, on the very same island that the plane crashed on.. At least one of them has lived there his entire life. There is a facility for the study of animals (at least bears and sharks/dolphins), which was initially used by Dharma, but is now being used to hold people captive in cages/tanks. At least one of them seemed to actually be expecting a plane to crash, then he told Ethan and Goodwin to go infiltrate and report with lists - and they knew what that meant. We've watched the careful breaking down of the three captives, building anticipation about why their being conditioned.. We saw one (Jack) invited to cooperate in exchange for the ability to someday _go home_. We were introduced to the hint of a relationship between two relatively new and important characters - Ben and Juliette. We saw Alex continue to inquire about things from our guys (having spoken to three already), with a hint given that she used to be in a similar role to the one Kate is in now. We've learned that the "Others" were surprised as hell that Desmond had a boat (or possibly that he even existed). We saw proof given to one of our main characters that the outside world exists. We watched a particularly cool recon mission to ascertain the strength of the guards holding Sawyer and Kate. And we learned that they are currently being monitored, even now in their cells.

The story has progressed in many directions, by leaps and bounds.. I for one found the story progressions intriguing and guess-provoking - not random. Based on the previous questions raised in earlier seasons that were completely answered (with interesting new questions deriving from the satisfactory answers to those questions), I believe the new questions introduced this season will be answered as well, in good time. In the meantime, the story progresses, rather well.

Soap operas just have random dialog and small events created randomly each day. Here, we have things planted seasons ahead of time showing up later, in well thought out reveals that don't feel forced or faked.

Again, I'm just surpised, wondering if I'm watching the same show as you. When it comes to criticism, I can take it - complain away.. just expect some fair criticism of your criticism too (which I'm sure you can take as well).


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Delta13 said:


> The Others *clearly* have contact with the outside world - Bush reelection, Reeves death, and for the clincher - the actual FOX broadcast of the final out of the 2004 World Series! Which only happened a month prior to the stated date (Red Sox won on 10/27, Benry says it is now 11/29) so the tape didn't come on the slow boat.


What kind of contact though? Clearly some people thought that he meant a more personal contact, but after his comment about Being on the Island all his life that has changed. 
All of the things Ben listed were NEWS items. Have Ben tell Jack something about his mother or one of his co-workers and it may be more believable. Couldn't they be using a satellite dish to get the news? Or maybe just a pneumatic tube from somewhere else to have the news sent to them. ; )
Wonder if the Others can make the boat go more than just around and around the island?


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## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

It seemed to me that the remote Ben used to turn on the Red Sox clip looked quite old, it was a pretty big block type thing...sort of like the same era technology as the computer in the hatch.

Aside from the idea that Sun will lie despite knowing that others will suffer, the glass ballerina also was the parallel of Jae falling and breaking.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

We do know that Sun cheated on Jin--that was new info. We don't know that Sun had intercourse with Baldy. They could have made that perfectly clear had they chosen too. He did keep his pants on--not that that would stop anyone with a zipper, but it makes it less likely. We still don't know who's baby she's carrying, or if it's even possible that it's Baldy's. (And we should probably be more specific--stop saying "slept with". We never saw them sleeping, nor do we care if they did. That word confuses the conversation.)

What animal was making that noise at the end when Sawyer and Shortcake were back in their cages? (You can listen again here at the 35:00 mark.)


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> We do know that Sun cheated on Jin--that was new info. We don't know that Sun had intercourse with Baldy. They could have made that perfectly clear had they chosen too. He did keep his pants on--not that that would stop anyone with a zipper, but it makes it less likely. ...


Aha! 

This just makes me want to laugh, seeing how there has been an argument in this thread about whether or not Sun had sex with Jae ... lots of people say yes, lots of people say no.

But I haven't seen anyone yet who didn't think Sun was naked in bed. How do you know she *was* naked? Oh, faith, from how the scene was presented? Then why not take it on faith that the naked woman in bed may have just had sex?

Oh, wait! We can't, because Jae climbed out of bed with his pants on. So maybe Sun was wearing a tank top and tennis shorts under those sheets ... she obviously wasn't naked either.

What should we believe?

I'm being facetious here, but I think the larger issue is not whether or not Sun had sex with Jae, but it's was Sun unfaithful to Jin? And the answer is clearly: YES.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I'm of the belief that the "I can'd do this" comment by Sun was to mean she couldn't leave Jin to be with Jae. That's what he was wanting from her, wasn't it? He wanted her to leave Jin and she said she couldn't. But it still seemed clear that she had sexual relations with Jae.


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

I got the impression that Sun had slept with him several times. Her dad got wind of it and that's why he charged in there.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I don't even understand why this would be a point of contention.


Lots of people were disputing it in last week's thread.

Those disputes are now over. They have telegraphed it to us. The others have contact with the outside world.


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

How can Juliette be EVERYWHERE at once? She's in every scene with the Others. 

Loved the look on Ben's face when Jack was laughing at him. He didn't realize how ridiculous it would sound to people that the Red Sox won the World Series. Probably because he has spent his entire life on the island.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> What animal was making that noise at the end when Sawyer and Shortcake were back in their cages? (You can listen again here at the 35:00 mark.)


I heard this too. I thought it sounded like the whispy smoke thing (security system) that flew by that one episode...


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

drew2k said:


> ...but I think the larger issue is not whether or not Sun had sex with Jae, but it's was Sun unfaithful to Jin? And the answer is clearly: YES.


It IS clearly 'yes'. (I doubt you'll find anyone willing to dispute THAT  .) And clearly an important revelation to the story. We learned that Sun is an habitual liar, especially to the men in her life who would control her. She's even willing to let others (the maid, at least) suffer for her lies. This is all very important character revelation stuff. I couldn't agree more.

But, the mystery of the "miracle" baby remains. Is it an island miracle? Or is it Baldy's baby? We still don't know. And without explicit confirmation, the story is free to advance in either direction.

Her unfaithfulness and deceitfulness is far more important from a character development standpoint. And the "miracle" baby is more important from an "island mystery" plot development standpoint. I think these can be considered separately, although they are obviously both linked. Only the latter is up for debate.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

danplaysbass said:


> I heard this too. I thought it sounded like the whispy smoke thing (security system) that flew by that one episode...


Hmmm... I thought it was just an ordinary animal--them being in a zoo and all. I just didn't recognize it.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Hope this is not a smeek, I only skimmed the thread so far...

I thought this was interesting:

The two "losties" that we, the viewer, *know* have committed cold-blooded premeditated murder are now locked in cages (a "prison", as it were) and are being made to break rocks (to do "hard labor").

Hmmmmmm......

Based on the kind of records they had on Jack, they almost certainly have Kate's rap sheet. The charges against her were "official".

On the other hand, at the time Sawyer boarded the plane, the authorities had not yet connected him with the murder he'd committed. The Australian authorities made him leave believing he was simply an undesirable punk, starting bar fights and stuff. Had he been a suspect in the murder that we know he'd committed, they wouldn't have deported him, they'd have detained him to stand trial.

I wonder if _after Sawyer left Australia_ on the flight, the investigators there linked him to the murder of that shrimp man? If so, the "others" would likely have those records too.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

They weren't breaking rocks, were they? I think they were just removing them. Kate dug them up, and Sawyer carted them off. Others were leveling the ground with hoes, and tamping the earth. I assumed they were about to erect some structure or building.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I believe that the rock bit with Kate and Sawyer is to wear them down and make them more susceptible to whatever nefarious plan the Villagers have.
> And that's why Kate didn't fight back. It seemed obvious to me that she was getting pretty tired swinging that pickaxe when Sawyer decided to lay one on her.


I completely agree with this. Moreover, I'd expand it a bit.

People have talked about what's being done between Kate and Sawyer as a "mating ritual" bit - and it may turn out to have that effect, but I don't think that's the purpose. Keep in mind there were other people in the rock-breaking labor camp, and Alex's friend in the other cage - although Alex's friend could also support the mating theory, who knows.

I suspect it's some type of behavior modification program. If you assume this is an offshoot/evolution of the Dharma Initiative, they may have lofty goals of saving humanity from itself, which would support a plan of forcing people into conformity or rehabilitating people with criminal behavior - like Sawyer and Kate. That would explain why Jack isn't there - he isn't a criminal. Besides, I'm suspecting they wanted Jack more for his doctor skills, which meant they had to "break" him differently.

Edit: Fishman above me provides good insight into this possibility.

So who were the other people on the rock crew? Tail section survivors? Other "others" who had displeased Ben?

And oh yeah, leaving the boat unguarded was Sayid's dumbest move ever. Sure, he doesn't really know how organized the Others are, but based on the fake village, he should have suspected more.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

mask2343 said:


> How can Juliette be EVERYWHERE at once? She's in every scene with the Others.


Maybe she's related to Jake, from Jericho? Could be in their blood ...


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I appreciated Sawyers read on Juliet as a cold-blooded killer. In her first episode, I wasn't sure if it was that her character was creeping me out whenever she went all smiley and nice, or if it was that the actress was annoying me. She may end up giving Ben a run for his money in the looney department. (Thought I already posted this, but I don't see it... Hope this isn't a repost.)


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Aha!
> 
> This just makes me want to laugh, seeing how there has been an argument in this thread about whether or not Sun had sex with Jae ... lots of people say yes, lots of people say no.
> 
> ...


Well considering that she is pregnant and we don't know the timeframe of the flashback in the hotel, the matter of whether or not she had sex is the larger issue. Who is the baby's father?


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

dswallow said:


> Anybody want to take up a collection for Christmas gifts for the staff and cast? I figured this would work well for all of them:


Not ready for a Lost version of this shirt, but if I comes in Smallville then I am interested.


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## TheDewAddict (Aug 21, 2002)

Figaro said:


> Did they need to twist the knife with the Red Sox footage? That was just wrong.


Yeah, of all the shows where I expected to see that replied, Lost was not one of them.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Why even bother attempting to make Kate feel pretty in a new sun dress only to make her break rocks using a pick-axe? This is making no sense.


They did it just for *US*


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

Why would Sun put on a kettle of water just before the expected confrontation with the others on the beach? Was she going to make them tea? It may just be a plot device to catch the boat on fire. That would really upset Benry.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> They weren't breaking rocks, were they? I think they were just removing them. Kate dug them up, and Sawyer carted them off. Others were leveling the ground with hoes, and tamping the earth. I assumed they were about to erect some structure or building.


Ad if I remeber correctly, when teh guy showed them the place, he sia dhere is the dig. Usually a "dig" means archaeology, but it is not really clear if that was what was meant. At the very least they did seem to be leveilling areas out and tamping the dirt down like they are building something like you said.

And, I am certainly not going to get mad about it because I delayed wathcing so long, but due to a recent move, we got behind on watching Deadwood. We just watched the last 2 episodes Tuesday and Last night. Good thing since that is a pretty major plot point.

It was good to see the actress that played Trixie getting some more work, even if it is over quickly (or not).


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## TomK (May 22, 2001)

I like the show, it's a great show with good acting and writing.....but nothing ever gets resolved and it keeps getting weirder and weirder. New mysteries keep appearing, I'm beginning to feel 'lost' watching this week after week. I can't stop watching because I hope to see something resolved.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> They weren't breaking rocks, were they? I think they were just removing them. Kate dug them up, and Sawyer carted them off. Others were leveling the ground with hoes, and tamping the earth. I assumed they were about to erect some structure or building.


When I said "breaking rocks" it was figurative.

The point was they were 1) Locked in cages (cells, "behind bars") and were 2) being forced to perform grueling manual labor.

Exactly like an old-fashioned prison. For the two known murderers (at least, who committed murder *before* crashing on the island) among the "losties".


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## i_be_broke (Feb 16, 2006)

Just to 'weigh in' on the whole...the writers have a plan/they're making this up...debate.

In season one, Kate was a resourceful, though spirited, felon. Now, she's a bimbo who just goes along with whatever the 'guys' (i.e. jack,sawyer) say. As I've been watching the last three eps, I ask myself how Kate would be able to elude authorities for two days, much less skirt herself off to Australia to start a new life. 

I think this show suffers from having too many cooks (or producers) in the kitchen. Do they want an action/adventure series or a soap opera? The 'T+A' feels a little gratuitous and it frustrates me how the characters get a case of the 'stupids' at just the right time (like make tea when you're expecting an ambush)


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

i_be_broke said:


> The 'T+A' feels a little gratuitous...


And what do you say when you receive a gratuity? You say "thank you".


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I'm sorry, but I'm getting really bored with the show. I don't need more explosions or anything, but some more plot/character development would be nice.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

danieljanderson said:


> It may just be a plot device to catch the boat on fire.


No, it was a plot device so that the Other women would know that there was someone on the boat (and recently, too)


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

Lee L said:


> It was good to see the actress that played Trixie getting some more work, even if it is over quickly (or not).


She's also on ER at the moment...so she's doing pretty well with her talent.


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> No, it was a plot device so that the Other women would know that there was someone on the boat (and recently, too)


Hmmm...the fact that one of their own got SHOT should tip them off.


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## mgarthe (Mar 3, 2006)

Figaro said:


> Did they need to twist the knife with the Red Sox footage? That was just wrong.


+1 :down:


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

can someone (hefe) dig up the dialouge from Ben's speech about current events? I think I remember him saying "your country re-elected George W. Bush" which to me rings very strangely. Of course we don't know where they are, and it seems Ben has always been an island inhabitant, but they all seem very Americanized. Maybe I am putting too much emphasis on the word "your" but it seems to separate Dharma/The Others, or at least Ben from our country/society. Makes their origins that much more interesting.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

How about a few tips for the "others." If you want to be considered the "Good guys."

Stop taking stuff from people, you know, stuff like boats, guns, identities, pregnant ladies, and children . Stop shooting at everybody with guns and tazers. Try telling the truth once and awhile instead of playing dress up and pretending to have been on the plane. Oh and finally, stop killing people!!


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

We now know how the others know so much about the people on the plane. With access to television, they've been watching Lost for the past two seasons.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

mask2343 said:


> Hmmm...the fact that one of their own got SHOT should tip them off.


No, you misunderstand.

The Other woman came downstairs in the boat. At that point, the Others didn't know whether or not there was anyone else aboard. Then she looked over to the stove and saw the burner was lit. Therefore, she knew that someone was there.

If not for making tea, Sun could have hidden longer and perhaps gotten away without confronting the Others.


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## gear (Oct 1, 2006)

I liked when the big balloon came up from under the ocean and pushed Michael and Walt back to the island.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Once again, when we heard his full name, the deliberateness of them presenting a full name (first + last) still has me guessing that there's some elaborate word circle we could/should be doing out of all of their names (everyone ever mentioned on the show) to reveal some secret.. (we did see a word circle too - I think Shannon had it).


Kind of surprised nobody mentioned this yet, as I'm usually not one to pick up on the more subtle devices thrown out there, but from the Seymore Butts school of thought:

Ben Linus=

Been Lyin' (to?) us

or

Been Lyin', Us.


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

mojomom said:


> I think it's interesting to imagine the Others from the point of view that they've grown up on the Island. Explains part of their strange world view.


I'm sorry, but I just can't buy that Ben was born there! The Dharma experiment started in the 1980s and that man is at least 40 years old. So does that mean they're implying there were folks there before the Dharma people arrived 25 years ago?

I thought the best line was Sawyer saying "Chain gang looks good on you..." to Kate. :up:

Love that Jack has been so easily broken by the blonde and Sawyer wouldn't even drink for the canteen she offered him. Proves to me how more worldy Sawyer is compared to the goodie-goodie Jack. Stick with him Kate! But like others, don't understand how the self-reliant Kate has become such a whimp in captivity. Putting her in a dress steals all her guts? :down:

Cheryl


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

gear said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I liked when the big balloon came up from under the ocean and pushed Michael and Walt back to the island.


  Was that from the previews for next week? If so, please follow forums rules and spoiler tag it.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

The word circle aside....

For some reason "Linus" rang a bell within the mythology of the show, but I can't place it. And I could be wrong.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Big_Daddy said:


> For some reason "Linus" rang a bell within the mythology of the show, but I can't place it.


Did we ever see him with a blanket?


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

speedcouch said:


> Love that Jack has been so easily broken by the blonde and Sawyer wouldn't even drink for the canteen she offered him. Proves to me how more worldy Sawyer is compared to the goodie-goodie Jack.


Or he's still just pissed that she tasered the crap out of him last episode.


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## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

3D said:


> Kind of surprised nobody mentioned this yet, as I'm usually not one to pick up on the more subtle devices thrown out there, but from the Seymore Butts school of thought:
> 
> Ben Linus=
> 
> ...


It's clearly Snub Line.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

smickola said:


> Aside from the idea that Sun will lie despite knowing that others will suffer, the glass ballerina also was the parallel of Jae falling and breaking.


Oh!! Good catch!!!


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

speedcouch said:


> I'm sorry, but I just can't buy that Ben was born there! The Dharma experiment started in the 1980s and that man is at least 40 years old. So does that mean they're implying there were folks there before the Dharma people arrived 25 years ago?


I had another thought along those lines but from the opposite perspective.

Suppose Ben's telling the truth about having been born on the island.

Suppose there've been generations of his society living there.

Perhaps Ben's group _is what caused DHARMA to fail!_ Perhaps, they messed with the DHARMA people in much the same way they're messing with the losties!

I sort of like the theory that Ben's group is not DHARMA and that they "sabotaged" DHARMA (either intentionally or as a side-effect of whatever interaction they had with the DHARMA people) for the following reason:

Ben's group truly didn't seem to realize the importance of/reason for "pushing the button." They didn't seem to expect the effect that occurred when the button wasn't pushed and when Desmond "turned the key" to terminate the magnetic research. They cavileirely didn't seem to care if the button got pushed or not. We now know, that was a dangerous assumption.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Was that from the previews for next week? If so, please follow forums rules and spoiler tag it.


No. It was a load of BS. (I watched the previews, nothing even remotely like that in them.) He's trolling us.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> I had another thought along those lines but from the opposite perspective.
> 
> Suppose Ben's telling the truth about having been born on the island.
> 
> ...


I thought the Dharma Initiative started in the sixties? If that was the case Ben could could have been born of Dharmites. I think he was, meanwhile there is another group of Others on the other side of the island from the Greg Initiative.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I guess it's not so hard to imagine that Juliette has broken Jack. After all, she did knock him the bleep out with just one punch.

With regard to the "murderers in cages" plotline... How would the Others know Sawyer killed anyone? 

Why would Ben use the false name Henry Gale, anyway?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

The DI was formed in 1970, according to the Orientation film. The actor that plays Ben was born in 1955.


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

Suppose Ben is offspring of a Dharma employee and "those who came before".


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> With regard to the "murderers in cages" plotline... How would the Others know Sawyer killed anyone?


I addressed that in my post.

They have Jack's whole life on file.

Kate's charges would be a matter of public record (easier to find than some of the info they had on Jack, in fact).

In this episode, Sawyer basically telegraphed to us that "James" is his real first name. This strengthens the assumption that "James Ford" is his real birth name. The "others" know that.

What I suggested in my post above: more than 60 days have passed since Sawyer was kicked out of Australia. Surely, there's been an investigation into the "shrimp man's" murder during that time. By now, the investigators in Australia may have identified "James Ford" as the primary suspect in that murder (and would surely be kicking themselves for letting him go!). The results of such an investigation may even have appeared in the Australian news media. The suspect of this sort of a homicide having been one of the "victims" of "lost" flight 815 would have been the sort of thing the news media would go nuts over!


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> The DI was formed in 1970, according to the Orientation film. The actor that plays Ben was born in 1955.


That doesn't mean anything. 
I posit that the some of the Others (& captives) suffer from accelerated aging. 
Look at what happened to Walt! 
And do you think Rousseau has been on the island long enough to explain the apparent age of Alex?


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Dharma still thinks they have people there, why would continue dropping food if not?


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Before reading all 100+ posts so far, had to comment on the Red Sox thing, saw Jack's reaction as soon it was mentioned, but still funny  very well done.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

5thcrewman said:


> That doesn't mean anything.
> I posit that the some of the Others (& captives) suffer from accelerated aging.
> Look at what happened to Walt!
> And do you think Rousseau has been on the island long enough to explain the apparent age of Alex?


Alex is supposed to be 16. Rousseau claims to have been on the island for 16 years so I would say yes.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

5thcrewman said:


> And do you think Rousseau has been on the island long enough to explain the apparent age of Alex?


Yes. Exactly. Perfectly.

She's been on the island 16 years. Alex was abducted as an infant and is now 16 years old. They cast an actress (who's actually 19 or 20, IIRC) who can pass for 16.

Furthermore, she asked Kate if she'd seen a boy "about my age" in the cages. Kate (truthfully) answered "no".

However, we (and Sawyer) *did* see such a boy in the cages, before they brought Kate in. He also looked about 16 to me!


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## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Why would Ben use the false name Henry Gale, anyway?


He assumed the identity of the balloon crash victim. (I think...lots to keep track of in this crazy show).


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> The DI was formed in 1970, according to the Orientation film. The actor that plays Ben was born in 1955.


Don't forget about Adam and Eve. There apparently were people there before Dharma.

As for Ben's full name, the only thing I figured out is that you can't spell Benjamin Linus without Sun and Jin. That probably means absolutely nothing.

There's something about an anagram with Ben's alias. I think this is it:
"Henry Gale Minnesota" = "see an other man lying." Pardon me if I'm smeeking from a previous thread.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> Hope this is not a smeek, I only skimmed the thread so far...
> 
> I thought this was interesting:
> 
> The two "losties" that we, the viewer, *know* have committed cold-blooded premeditated murder are now locked in cages (a "prison", as it were) and are being made to break rocks (to do "hard labor").


Sounded cool, but don't forget we know Eko killed guys in front of him with a machette (when still a drug dealer). Anna planned murder too, but she's dead.


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> Yes. Exactly. Perfectly.
> 
> She's been on the island 16 years. Alex was abducted as an infant and is now 16 years old. They cast an actress (who's actually 19 or 20, IIRC) who can pass for 16.
> 
> ...


I am confused. Who are you thinking the boy is?

I took it as if the boy was her boyfriend.

So why would it matter that he was about the same age as her?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> No. It was a load of BS. (I watched the previews, nothing even remotely like that in them.) He's trolling us.


He's not trolling, he's making a Prisoner joke.

(I laughed. Then again, I'm pretty old...)


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## chavez (Nov 18, 2004)

> It seems like this is getting kind of Clintonian.
> 
> I guess we don't know for sure that Sun had "sexual relations" with that man, but can we agree that she got naked and got in bed with a man that isn't her husband, and that's not generally something a married person ought to do?


come on people, use your brains. I can say that we can't be sure that Sun is really a woman because we've never seen her vagina. don't be stupid. they slept together. you've gotten all of the necessary evidence from the storytellers to come to that conclusion. there's no mystery here.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. When Juliet brought Jack some soup, Ben made a comment to Juliet along the lines of "You never made me soup." My wife and I both picked up on it, and agreed that it almost insinuates that at one time Juliet had to break Ben. If that is indeed the case, that furthers brings into question whether or not Ben has acutally been on the island his entire life. 

There don't seem to be any transcripts out for this episode out, but I'm keeping my eye out and I'll post the exact lines when I can find them. Maybe I'll just watch it again...


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Donbadabon said:


> I am confused. Who are you thinking the boy is?
> 
> I took it as if the boy was her boyfriend.
> 
> So why would it matter that he was about the same age as her?


I too think he was probably her boyfriend. I have no idea who he is beyond that.

The point I was making is that 5thcrewman expressed the opinion that Alex appeared to be *WAY* too old to have been Rouseaus child.

My point was that not only does Alex look 16 to me, a random boy that she described as "about my age" *also looked 16.* You should not read any assumptions other than that into my comment.

My point being, If you (5thcrewman) think Alex looks way older than 16 (I don't), we have this unknown boy to corroborate her age (as he was described in dialog as being Alex's age).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pcguru83 said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. When Juliet brought Jack some soup, Ben made a comment to Juliet along the lines of "You never made me soup." My wife and I both picked up on it, and agreed that it almost insinuates that at one time Juliet had to break Ben. If that is indeed the case, that furthers brings into question whether or not Ben has acutally been on the island his entire life.


In the first episode, there was some dialog between them about his not being invited to the book club that implied (or at least, from which I inferred) that they used to be an item, and split less than amiably. I just took the soup line as more of that...


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

chavez said:


> come on people, use your brains. I can say that we can't be sure that Sun is really a woman because we've never seen her vagina. don't be stupid. they slept together. you've gotten all of the necessary evidence from the storytellers to come to that conclusion. there's no mystery here.


Have you been watching this show? Nothing is ever what it seems. Flashback perspectives have never changed?


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

pcguru83 said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. When Juliet brought Jack some soup, Ben made a comment to Juliet along the lines of "You never made me soup." My wife and I both picked up on it, and agreed that it almost insinuates that at one time Juliet had to break Ben. If that is indeed the case, that furthers brings into question whether or not Ben has acutally been on the island his entire life.
> 
> There don't seem to be any transcripts out for this episode out, but I'm keeping my eye out and I'll post the exact lines when I can find them. Maybe I'll just watch it again...


He said that, but I assumed it was from their previous relationship that was majorly hinted at in the first episode this season. I think it's more telling that he is jealous of Jack (insinuating that Juliet has the option of falling for him) It makes me think that their plans for Jack have nothing to do with him going home- no need to be jealous if Jack had a real shot at leaving the island....


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Someone earlier said Ben didn't expect the red sox news to be so surprising... what? Of course he did, that's why he brought video tape. He knew it was so preposterous that no one would believe him without the video.

I agree with fish man about sawyer. I think that lots of info about the various losties is all over the media, or was, and that is how a lot of information about them was obtained.

Is the army hot blonde gun chick who torments jack from gia and that show kindred the embraced?

Yes, jack why would we? Because you think that you are either contagious or that the rest of the world is contagious...? I don't see any other explanation for the vaccinations they seem obsessed with.

Trixie is even more attractive in normal clothes and makeup... who'da thunked it?

Sayid's beard is growing a little funny. I have that same problem, though, so I won't make too much fun of him.

I'm having a hard time with the jack plot. It seems like maybe they just want to make jack understand that they aren't the bad guys, but then they should just tell him the truth instead of trickery.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

The girl who asked Kate if she'd seen another prisoner was Alex?! I didn't catch that. Didn't Alex and Kate ever meet?

Anyway, as to whether Ben has lived there his whole life or since Dharma or before Dharma or whatever... maybe his "whole life" means since he came to the island. Maybe he believes his "life" started when he came to the island and began his true purpose or whatever.

Just a thought.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Figaro said:


> Have you been watching this show? Nothing is ever what it seems. Flashback perspectives have never changed?


I'm sure the writers on this show really get a kick out of when they telegraph something to us in no uncertain terms and people still refuse to accept it.

It has now been clearly telegraphed to us that Sun was having an extramarital affair (that is, *SEX*) with the bald guy.

The question still remains, however, is the baby she's carrying the bald guy's, or a "miracle baby" of whom Jin is the father?

Don't read too much into the phrase "miracle baby". I know of cases in real life where a man was diagnosed as having too low of a sperm count to possibly father a child, and "miraculously" did anyway.


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

When they showed Benjamin looking at the video cameras, I saw Jack, Kate, and James. But there were other screens there. I meant to go back and look to see what they were, but forgot until now.

Anyone have a screenshot of the video monitors?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

chavez said:


> come on people, use your brains. I can say that we can't be sure that Sun is really a woman because we've never seen her vagina. don't be stupid. they slept together. you've gotten all of the necessary evidence from the storytellers to come to that conclusion. there's no mystery here.


For the record, I do think it's implied they had sex, and probably had on a number of previous occasions.

My point was that even if you don't think they committed "the act," then that doesn't mean everything was totally innocent. So this whole debate is immaterial. Put the best spin you can on what we saw, Sun still was in an elicit relationship, her father would still feel shamed/dishonored, and if Jin found out, he would still be upset.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> The girl who asked Kate if she'd seen another prisoner was Alex?! I didn't catch that. Didn't Alex and Kate ever meet?


I think this was Kate's first time meeting Alex. We, of course, have seen Alex several times. This was unquestionably Alex.



> Anyway, as to whether Ben has lived there his whole life or since Dharma or before Dharma or whatever... maybe his "whole life" means since he came to the island. Maybe he believes his "life" started when he came to the island and began his true purpose or whatever.
> 
> Just a thought.


Interesting thought. I don't buy it though. 

Ben's either bald-faced lying about that, or he's telling the truth (actually lived his whole life, 45 - 50 or so years, there). I have no strong opinion about this either way.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> When I said "breaking rocks" it was figurative.


Haven't left for work yet, so I was able to check the actual wording:

(Danny?): Alright, here's the jig. See these rocks here? That's where you two come in. You're going to chop them loose, and you're going to haul them out of here.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Donbadabon said:


> When they showed Benjamin looking at the video cameras, I saw Jack, Kate, and James. But there were other screens there. I meant to go back and look to see what they were, but forgot until now.
> 
> Anyone have a screenshot of the video monitors?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

I think it's obvious - though others will surely disagree  - that the comment about Ben's whole life being lived on the island will be proved out eventually. One way or another. It was not a throwaway line, but we will neither prove or disprove it based on what we've seen so far.

Not that we won't try, mind you ...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

3D said:


> Kind of surprised nobody mentioned this yet, as I'm usually not one to pick up on the more subtle devices thrown out there, but from the Seymore Butts school of thought:
> 
> Ben Linus=
> 
> ...


Hehe! I like it!


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

mitchb2 said:


> He assumed the identity of the balloon crash victim. (I think...lots to keep track of in this crazy show).


Yeah, but why? He could have used his real name or any other name. The Losties wouldn't have a clue. He didn't expect Sayid to dig up the body and find the drivers license.



Fishman said:


> What I suggested in my post above: more than 60 days have passed since Sawyer was kicked out of Australia. Surely, there's been an investigation into the "shrimp man's" murder during that time. By now, the investigators in Australia may have identified "James Ford" as the primary suspect in that murder (and would surely be kicking themselves for letting him go!). The results of such an investigation may even have appeared in the Australian news media. The suspect of this sort of a homicide having been one of the "victims" of "lost" flight 815 would have been the sort of thing the news media would go nuts over!


No offense - your posts are more thought provoking than mine ever are - but that's a lot of "may haves". Sawyer was a grifter, not a murderer.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> I'm sure the writers on this show really get a kick out of when they telegraph something to us in no uncertain terms and people still refuse to accept it.


Hey, its their own darn fault!  People even quesiton stuff about other shows now too, stuff that would have been obvious before, but since Lost is one of the few shows that require you to really think and observe that get widespread veiwership, it is changing the way people think about TV.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> No offense - your posts are more thought provoking than mine ever are - but that's a lot of "may haves". Sawyer was a grifter, not a murderer.


You apparently missed an episode.

His *entire reason* to be in Australia was to *murder that shrimp-cart owner in cold blood.* Execution style.

They showed it to us, quite graphically, I might add.

He was tricked into believing that the shrimp-cart owner was the "real Sawyer", who caused the death of his parents.. This is why he killed him.


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

Lee L said:


> Hey, its their own darn fault!  People even quesiton stuff about other shows now too, stuff that would have been obvious before, but since Lost is one of the few shows that require you to really think and observe that get widespread veiwership, it is changing the way people think about TV.


See I see it totally differently. Lots of people on this board go WAY overboard (ie, the sex thing, the purgartory theory). The show is pretty straight forward. What you see is usually what you get. If it isn't they usually show you right away (Desmond, the others camp). The parts of the show that need analysis are the "easter eggs" and such.

Like last week, people argued that they didn't have contact with the world, when it was obvious that they got the files from somewhere. So this week, they confirm the obvious. But STILL people don't believe it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> I think this was Kate's first time meeting Alex. We, of course, have seen Alex several times. This was unquestionably Alex.


When Kate was captured by The Others (the first time, when she followed Jack and Sawyer), she was held prisoner by Alex. But I don't think they spoke, or even that she saw Alex's face.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Was that from the previews for next week? If so, please follow forums rules and spoiler tag it.


No. I think it was probably just the OP's way of sarcasticly saying they should deal with what happened to Walt and Michael. Which it might be nice to see a glimpse of them for a minute (are they still drifting out there or did they get picked up?) but I want them to get to the hatch people first. We're only getting a handful of episodes before they go on another long hiatus, so I'd like to eventually know where everyone stands before they go back on hiatus.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

wow.....I didn't like this episode at all....booooooooring!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Figaro said:


> How about a few tips for the "others." If you want to be considered the "Good guys."


One thing to remember. As far as I know, throughout history NOBODY has ever thought of themselves as the bad guys. In America. we've always been the good guys. In WWII, the Nazi's considered themselves the good guys. Same with the Japanese. In the cold war, the Soviets considered themselves the good guys. Right now, both Israel AND Lebanon consider themselves the good guys. Same with Islamic extremists.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Re: Kate: count me in the group disappointed at what a hothouse flower she's turned into. She used to be one of the strongest characters on the show but ever since the episode where the Others captured her and used her to force Jack/Sawyer/etc. to hand over their guns she's been pretty pathetic. This episode was the worst: sure she's tired (IMO that's why Sawyer did what he did, even more than to test the Others: he wanted to give her a break) but a fight breaks out like that and you'll definitely get an adrenaline surge, at least enough to make _some_ kind of effort. We didn't even have to see it happen; if they'd showed Juliette holding the gun on her in some kind of position that made it obvious she'd tried to _do_ something rather than just standing there like an idiot, I'd have been happy 

Re: Jack: First, I don't think Jack has been broken... I guess it depends on what you mean. Yes, he does appear to not be fighting right now but perhaps he's waiting for a better opportunity. On the other hand he isn't joining up with the Others or thinking they really are "the good guys". Second, it's much harder for Jack IMO: he's all by himself in a cell with no air or sun, he has no idea what's happened to his friends, as far as he knows he's in an underwater facility which greatly reduces his ability to escape, etc. Sawyer and Kate are together, they are outside and can see freedom, etc. To be honest, I actually like Jack better now that he doesn't seem to think he's all that.

Re: Sun: as someone else mentioned there's absolutely no question she was unfaithful in at least the broad sense of the word. The only question is: is the baby Jin's or Baldy's?

Re: Sayid: super-lame that he let the boat get taken like that. You'd think he'd at least put up some kind of trap or alarm (tin cans tied together!) on the boat--are at least he'd tell Sun to be on guard! Sheesh. Plus, what's with this "oh gee, we lost the boat, I guess we better go home" stuff? I thought they'd start exploring on foot and do some kind of guerilla warfare on the Others or something.

In general, I hope we get back to the other side of the island and see what's going on there before too long...

Off topic: the news is that Kate and Charlie are getting married (I mean, in real life Evangeline Lilly and Dominic Monaghan are getting married). Dominic has often stated he's eager to start a family. With a show like Lost, where the entire 2+ years in real time has only taken a few months in "show time", having a major cast member like Kate get pregnant would be a disaster for the show I would think. They would have to write her out, I suppose, at least for the duration of the pregnancy (while she's showing).


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> One thing to remember. As far as I know, throughout history NOBODY has ever thought of themselves as the bad guys. In America. we've always been the good guys. In WWII, the Nazi's considered themselves the good guys. Same with the Japanese. In the cold war, the Soviets considered themselves the good guys. Right now, both Israel AND Lebanon consider themselves the good guys. Same with Islamic extremists.


This is precisely how I've always interpreted Ben's comment, "We're the good guys."

Ben's group clearly believes they're "doing good", that they are in the right.

If we, the losties, or anyone else agree or don't agree that they are "doing good" it is clearly a matter of perspective.

In fact, it becomes more and more clear as this show progresses that it's simply not a "good vs. evil" show. It's more complex than that.

All of the principal "lostie" characters have skeletons in their closets, mistakes they've made in the past, downright evil deeds, in some cases. Yet they all have some redeeming qualities also.

I think as they are developed, the "others" will be shown to be the same sort of complex characters. Not "good" or "evil", but a little of each.


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## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

Even though they've "told us", This episode really gave me the feeling that the DO have a final destination with this whole plot. They're doing a good job of meandering around on the way to the end.

I like the pacing of these first two episodes, someone said they come across more like reading a book and that's exactly what I was thinking. They've develped an engaging story with likeable (and hateable) characters and it's a fun journey to see where they will end up.

Now, with that said......
Obvoiusly the writers are not "gamers" or they would have never left Sun alone on the boat.
wow.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> This is precisely how I've always interpreted Ben's comment, "We're the good guys."
> 
> Ben's group clearly believes they're "doing good", that they are in the right.
> 
> If we, the losties, or anyone else agree or don't agree that they are "doing good" it is clearly a matter of perspective.


Exactly, which is why my favorite quote of the night was when Ben told Jack something to the effect that Jack should take a moment to see things from Ben's perspective. The way the losties treated Benry back at the hatch would have painted them as anything but good guys to someone who was not privy to everything they had endured in the fifty plus days since the crash. Until we know more about the Others history, we can't really say one way or the other whether their belief that they are the good guys is fair or unfair. The actions the others have taken which seem deplorable might be understandable when put in the context of what they've been through in the persumably many years that they've been on the island.

Edited to add: Look how the tailies treated Jin, Michael, and Sawyer when they first arrived. To me, it only seemed perfectly reasonable after seeing some of their backstory. I'm sure, however, that they still considered themselves the "good guys."


----------



## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

madscientist said:


> Re: Kate: count me in the group disappointed at what a hothouse flower she's turned into. She used to be one of the strongest characters on the show but ever since the episode where the Others captured her and used her to force Jack/Sawyer/etc. to hand over their guns she's been pretty pathetic. This episode was the worst: sure she's tired (IMO that's why Sawyer did what he did, even more than to test the Others: he wanted to give her a break) but a fight breaks out like that and you'll definitely get an adrenaline surge, at least enough to make _some_ kind of effort. We didn't even have to see it happen; if they'd showed Juliette holding the gun on her in some kind of position that made it obvious she'd tried to _do_ something rather than just standing there like an idiot, I'd have been happy


I was waiting for her to kick the guy in his pearl hatch right after he shocked Saywer the first time. That's her nature.

Then after the above incident, I really got the impression that something happened when she was with Benry, maybe something he told her. Because as you said, since then she's seems like she's lost the fight.
Also, the dress they're making her wear gives her a more feminine feel, I bet that also part of their tactics. Try to remove her from that Tomboy mentality.


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## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I'm looking forward to next week and getting more clarity


Good luck with that!!! ;-)


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

scottykempf said:


> Who says Trixie....I mean Colleen is dead? She gets shot, then the boat conveniently sails away, presumably back to the others camp. So I would say that there is a pretty good chance that she will recover. She is too good of an actress to not be a part of this show. Plus, she <spoiler for Deadwood>!!! LOL


Thanks for spoiling that! :down: :down: :down:


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


>


In the second pic., monitor #1 looks like a shot from the dock back into the woods where Jin and Sayid were hiding.


----------



## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I'm looking forward to next week and getting more clarity


I don't remember who clarity plays on the show?


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Are we sure that Sun had sexual relations with that bald man?


----------



## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I've scanned the thread pretty quickly this morning, so I hope I'm not smeeking, but someone brought up the question of how Ben could NOT know that they had a boat.

Ben knew that Desmond arrived on a boat, but likely assumed that he shipwrecked (which he did). What Ben DIDN'T know was that Kelvin had repaired Desmond's boat. The boat repair all happened out in the lagoon, where it would be unlikely that there was a camera present. I don't recall any discussions of Desmond's boat going on in the hatch. So it is entirely likely that Ben was downright shocked that the Losties had access to a boat.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

AJRitz said:


> Ben knew that Desmond arrived on a boat


With this show it's so easy to forget details, but as far as I knew, we don't even know that Ben knew Desmond existed, do we?


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Sounded cool, but don't forget we know Eko killed guys in front of him with a machette (when still a drug dealer). Anna planned murder too, but she's dead.


Anna is dead. And, there's evidence that the authorities did not pin the murder that she committed on her. If the others are going by public records (I speculated that the Australian authorities may have arrived at Sawyer as the prime suspect in the murder he committed _after_ his departure from Australia), the others may be unaware of the murders committed by Eko (or Anna, but that's moot, since she's already dead).

In Eko's case, he was a drug lord in a third world country. Authorities in those third world countries may not have pinned the murders he committed on him. Ergo, no public record. Or, perhaps, if the others know about his past, they may feel he's already atoned for his past sins.


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

They should have had a thought balloon over Jack's head when Ben showed him the TV:

"Oh my God. T.V. If they bring me a beer and some chips, I'll do anything they want. NO! NO! Don't turn it off! AWWWWW....."


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> Anna is dead. And, there's evidence that the authorities did not pin the murder that she committed on her. If the others are going by public records (I speculated that the Australian authorities may have arrived at Sawyer as the prime suspect in the murder he committed _after_ his departure from Australia), the others may be unaware of the murders committed by Eko (or Anna, but that's moot, since she's already dead).


They may also be unaware of the fact that Charlie was the one who killed Ethan. It'll be interesting to see how (if?) that revelation plays out.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Big_Daddy said:


> They may also be unaware of the fact that Charlie was the one who killed Ethan. It'll be interesting to see how (if?) that revelation plays out.


Yes.

And that Eko is the one who killed two other "others". They may only know that _some talie_ did it. They may suspect Anna Lucia.


----------



## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Anna is dead. And, there's evidence that the authorities did not pin the murder that she committed on her. If the others are going by public records (I speculated that the Australian authorities may have arrived at Sawyer as the prime suspect in the murder he committed _after_ his departure from Australia), the others may be unaware of the murders committed by Eko (or Anna, but that's moot, since she's already dead).
> 
> In Eko's case, he was a drug lord in a third world country. Authorities in those third world countries may not have pinned the murders he committed on him. Ergo, no public record. Or, perhaps, if the others know about his past, they may feel he's already atoned for his past sins.


Ethan and the other guy were sent to "make a list" of the survivors. Did they find out names and then Google them, or did they make the list based on their observations? Hopefully they answer that question sometime in the next 7 seasons.


----------



## gear (Oct 1, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He's not trolling, he's making a Prisoner joke.
> 
> (I laughed. Then again, I'm pretty old...)


You may be old but you still have a sense of humor.


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

speedcouch said:


> I
> Love that Jack has been so easily broken by the blonde and Sawyer wouldn't even drink for the canteen she offered him. Proves to me how more worldy Sawyer is compared to the goodie-goodie Jack.
> Cheryl


Well, Sawyer has access to water in his cage. Jack can ONLY get water from the blonde. So Sawyer can give himself the luxury of refusing her water. Remember, the first thing he did when he got back into his cage was to take a drink of water.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Fish Man said:


> Yes.
> 
> And that Eko is the one who killed two other "others". They may only know that _some talie_ did it. They may suspect Anna Lucia.


No, remember Eko connfessed to Benry that he killed those two "others" so he at least knows that much.


----------



## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> With this show it's so easy to forget details, but as far as I knew, we don't even know that Ben knew Desmond existed, do we?


We don't know this explicitly, but Desmond did live in the Losties' hatch for quite some time, and Ben has the ability to "spy" on that hatch, so it would be highly likely that he did know about Desmond.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

AJRitz said:


> We don't know this explicitly, but Desmond did live in the Losties' hatch for quite some time, and Ben has the ability to "spy" on that hatch, so it would be highly likely that he did know about Desmond.


I don't think we know for certain that he has the ability to spy on that hatch.

With the "deterioration" we've seen in the hatches, it's possible that his servaliance station does not have a feed from the "swan" hatch.

It's conceivable (albeit, not terribly likely) that when Ben was captured was the first time he was aware that the swan hatch was, in fact, still manned, if he even knew about its existence in the first place.

He may not have known about Desmond or Kelvin. Or, he may have know about Kelvin but assumed he was still the one manning that hatch, or any number of other possibilities.

In other words, Ben's level of knowledge about the swan hatch, or how "up to date" his knowledge about it's status was (who was manning it, etc.) prior to his being "captured" by the losties and held in that hatch, is pretty much unknown by us at this point.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

madscientist said:


> Re: Sayid: ...I thought they'd start exploring on foot and do some kind of guerilla warfare on the Others or something.


With his only support being 
1)a pregnant lady and 
2)a guy who 
a) is going to be more concerned with making sure his pregnant wife is safe, and 
b) doesn't speak or understand much english, and thus is difficult to strategize with

I don't think guerilla tactics would work so well.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

verdugan said:


> Well, Sawyer has access to water in his cage. Jack can ONLY get water from the blonde. So Sawyer can give himself the luxury of refusing her water. Remember, the first thing he did when he got back into his cage was to take a drink of water.


good point.


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## Haxx (Feb 25, 2003)

Here's a few thoughts. Granted, I haven't read the entire thread nor I have read the entire prior threads. So if this was brought up earlier please don't flame me. 

It is implied (by the others) that the dharma experiments are over. But, dharma food is still being airdropped. Wouldn't this mean dharma is still ongoing?

What if the kids are part of the other's prisoners, but are no longer kids. But some dharma technology (or island mystery) gone awry that ages them to adults?

Just a few thoughts, I wanted to share and get off my chest.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> Yes.
> 
> And that Eko is the one who killed two other "others". They may only know that _some talie_ did it. They may suspect Anna Lucia.


Eko confessed to "Henry" when he was in the hatch. He cut off a piece of his beard when he did it.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

pmyers said:


> wow.....I didn't like this episode at all....booooooooring!


I have to agree. I was all psyched up for it and it was a total letdown.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

smickola said:


> Aside from the idea that Sun will lie despite knowing that others will suffer, the glass ballerina also was the parallel of Jae falling and breaking.


Jae's fall was not as graceful.

Just saying.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

gear said:


> You may be old but you still have a sense of humor.


Well, I was zoomed.

But so was anyone who assumed you were giving away spoilers from next week's episode.


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## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Anna is dead. And, there's evidence that the authorities did not pin the murder that she committed on her. If the others are going by public records (I speculated that the Australian authorities may have arrived at Sawyer as the prime suspect in the murder he committed _after_ his departure from Australia), the others may be unaware of the murders committed by Eko (or Anna, but that's moot, since she's already dead).
> 
> In Eko's case, he was a drug lord in a third world country. Authorities in those third world countries may not have pinned the murders he committed on him. Ergo, no public record. Or, perhaps, if the others know about his past, they may feel he's already atoned for his past sins.


In Eko's case, they don't have him yet. Could be they're not interested in him for the reasons you mentioned or maybe they think they can only handle a few at a time. His day may come.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Re; Sayid's tactics.
Has there been any indication that he actually saw any combat?
Sure, he was a communications officer/torturer but it's not like he went to West Point or anything.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

desulliv said:


> In Eko's case, they don't have him yet. Could be they're not interested in him for the reasons you mentioned or maybe they think they can only handle a few at a time. His day may come.


Or when the Others were making up the list to give to Michael, they didn't realize Eko had killed their colleagues. And now they do, since Benry is back.


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## Tersanyus (Jun 27, 2004)

I have some observations I don't think were discussed.

I think there are lists of people of our Losties out there that the others have made up. Hence why Sawyer and Kate are made to break rocks like something from an old cartoon. Jack isn't evil since he's never killed anyone in cold blood like Sawyer and Kate

When Sun was on the boat that the others were about to take the woman who talked to her said that they (the others) weren't who she (Sun) thought they were. The woman knew about Sun. I'd take it to say she knew Sun wasn't "evil". So I believe if the others had taken Sun she'd have gotten the Jack "good" treatment in captivity. But Sun shot an other. Sun went from the "good" list to the "evil" list rather fast. Even if that woman doesn't die Sun still tried to murder her. Sun is on the "evil" list as the other people on the boat tried to shoot her. Though it doesn't matter much I'd be willing to believe if Sun hadn't shot at an other she'd just be taken to captivity and be watched like Jack is.

Alex had mentioned to Kate about the boy she was looking for was named Carl? Carl is the name of the young kid who helped Sawyer escape last week. Something is up with this. I don't know what yet.

I noticed tha when Sawyer and Kate were back in their cages at night when they were talking about what to do next they both looked in the same direction. I think they were looking back at the Hydra station. We know there are cameras there as we see Ben watching and listening to them. I think Sawyer and Kate both know they are being watched and probably know they are being listened to as well. The camera watching Jack has a flashing red light. The camera outside may not have a flashing red light but it should be the same. After all, this is an animal monitoring station. Why would the cameras be different.

Have we forgotten that in the season 2 finale Jack said he wouldn't have brought everyone out there if he didn't have a plan? Is there still a plan? Perhaps Michael knew about the cages with the cameras and warned them after Jack announced Michael was leading them to the others to be captured.


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

Haxx said:


> It is implied (by the others) that the dharma experiments are over. But, dharma food is still being airdropped. Wouldn't this mean dharma is still ongoing?


Not necessarily.

Dharma could have a contract with a third party to make the drops. And if the contract was written to last, say 30 years, and they paid in full ahead of time, then the third party would continue making the deliveries until the contract expired.


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## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

Haxx said:


> Just a few thoughts, I wanted to share and get off my chest.


Can you only use the computer when you are on your chest?


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

Donbadabon said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Dharma could have a contract with a third party to make the drops. And if the contract was written to last, say 30 years, and they paid in full ahead of time, then the third party would continue making the deliveries until the contract expired.


Spoiler (is it a spoiler?) from the Lost game over the summer that address this point.



Spoiler



Evidently the producers acknowleged pretty much just that in the game or whatever they did over the summer, that in advance, the drops were set up in perpetuity.



Someone posted some key points in last weeks thread IIRC.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Donbadabon said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Dharma could have a contract with a third party to make the drops. And if the contract was written to last, say 30 years, and they paid in full ahead of time, then the third party would continue making the deliveries until the contract expired.


From Lost Experience videos:


Spoiler



At the outset of the Dharma Initiative, they made arrangements to make food and medicine drops on the island "in perpetuity." Of course, that raises the question of why they made this arrangement. Who knows.



_Edit: It's not a smeek if someone beats you by only 2 minutes._


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## yaddayaddayadda (Apr 8, 2003)

chavez said:


> come on people, use your brains. I can say that we can't be sure that Sun is really a woman because we've never seen her vagina..


This sounds like intriguing research work. Where do I sign up?


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> I don't think Sayid's plan was that dumb. I think he just forgot that the Others have a boat from the attack on the raft.


I think Michael and Walt now have that boat. Not that Sayid would know that, but it doesn't appear that's how the Others slipped by Jin & Sayid. How DID they do it?


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Figaro said:


> Not ready for a Lost version of this shirt, but if I comes in Smallville then I am interested.


I'll take a "Medium."


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

To those who think that Sawyer pouring out the canteen shows that he's somehow stronger than Jack, don't forget that Jack refused to accept Juliet's food the first time also, and in fact tried to fight her and make a run for it. It was only after finding out that he (apparently) is in an underground bunker and clearly can't just run away and escape that he stopped being combative. And if you noticed toward the end of this episode (when Benry showed Jack the Red Sox footage), Jack still hadn't touched the soup that Juliet brought at the beginning of the ep.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

MacThor said:


> I think Michael and Walt now have that boat. Not that Sayid would know that, but it doesn't appear that's how the Others slipped by Jin & Sayid. How DID they do it?


Now that we've seen what a sophisticated village they actually live in, I have no doubt whatsoever that they didn't give Michael their _only_ boat. They probably have many boats.

If they did use a boat to sneak up to our losties' sail boat, it would have probably been a rowboat. No motor noise and no tall sail that would be spotted.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Lee L said:


> And, I am certainly not going to get mad about it because I delayed wathcing so long, but due to a recent move, we got behind on watching Deadwood. We just watched the last 2 episodes Tuesday and Last night. Good thing since that is a pretty major plot point.
> 
> It was good to see the actress that played Trixie getting some more work, even if it is over quickly (or not).


So if you hadn't caught up last night you wouldn't be mad?

Due to our recent move, we lost HBO and I've got Deadwood S3 queued up on Netflix. Delayed or not, there's no reason to be spoiling MAJOR plot points for Deadwood in a Lost thread. Want to make a crack about Swearengen being po'd at Sun for shooting Trixie, go ahead. But the spoiler was uncalled for and clearly against forum rules.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

danieljanderson said:


> Why would Sun put on a kettle of water just before the expected confrontation with the others on the beach? Was she going to make them tea? It may just be a plot device to catch the boat on fire. That would really upset Benry.


I don't think it would upset Benry at all if the boat caught on fire. I think it would serve the exact purpose that he wants. He doesn't want or need the boat, he just doesn't want the Losties to have access to a way off the island. It will disrupt their experimentation and could possibly cause them all to be found if someone were to leave the island and bring back a rescue party.

(Of course, it's also possible that they can't leave the island with the boat, hence the "sailing around in circles" line, but the look on Benry's face when he found out they had a boat tells me that he was genuinely scared that his little utopia was in jeopardy if anyone were able to use the boat to leave the island.)


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

devdogaz said:


> I don't think it would upset Benry at all if the boat caught on fire. I think it would serve the exact purpose that he wants. He doesn't want or need the boat, he just doesn't want the Losties to have access to a way off the island. It will disrupt their experimentation and could possibly cause them all to be found if someone were to leave the island and bring back a rescue party.
> 
> (Of course, it's also possible that they can't leave the island with the boat, hence the "sailing around in circles" line, but the look on Benry's face when he found out they had a boat tells me that he was genuinely scared that his little utopia was in jeopardy if anyone were able to use the boat to leave the island.)


I agree 100% with what you said here.

The scene in which Benry finds out that the losties have access to a boat tells us something else important as well:

Benry's people are not all-knowing about the losties. They don't have them under constant surveillance. While their background information on the losties is impressive (and disturbing), they don't know about everything they are doing. It's also unlikely they had the Swan station under surveillance or they would have almost surely known that Desmond arrived by boat and that his boat must still be around somewhere.

We can imply from this that they may or may not know who killed Ethan. They may not know that Michael killed Anna Lucia and Libby in the process of freeing Benry.

This means that the losties still have a chance to surprise Benry's people.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> They may not know that Michael killed Anna Lucia and Libby in the process of freeing Benry.
> 
> This means that the losties still have a chance to surprise Benry's people.


Wasn't Benry right there when Michael killed AL and Michelle? The other Others probably wouldn't have known about it, but Benry surely does.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Why is everyone still calling Ben Benry? His name is Ben.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

devdogaz said:


> Wasn't Benry right there when Michael killed AL and Michelle? The other Others probably wouldn't have known about it, but Benry surely does.


Ooops. Yes good point.

They (at least Benry) know that. However, the point that Benry was surprised by the boat (and, therefore, the losties still have the ability to catch him off guard) still holds.

In _this_ case, Benry and his people recovered from being caught off guard quite admirably. But maybe not next time...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Figaro said:


> Why is everyone still calling Ben Benry? His name is Ben.


We first got to know him as Henry. Then it was revealed that his name was Ben. It's just a witty combination of the two.


----------



## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

They already explained why Ben didn't want them to have a boat. Someone said that they went to the fake camp "just like we wanted them too". When Ben found out they had a boat, he was shocked and wanted the boat. Trixie's boyfriend was confused and Ben (or Trixie I forget) said "They could find US!" 

So I suppose they are in a portion of the island that you can't get to (or is heavily guarded) from land.


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## Granny (Mar 29, 2005)

pmyers said:


> wow.....I didn't like this episode at all....booooooooring!


 +1

Plot lines are becoming so wide I am caring less and less. I am trying to remember Hurley and Charlie and the rest, and what their stories are. Then, in a few weeks we will be thrown into the void again.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

cherry ghost said:


> In the second pic., monitor #1 looks like a shot from the dock back into the woods where Jin and Sayid were hiding.


100% I agree - I thought that too - but it seemed such an uninteresting place to monitor that I didn't feel like mentioning it.. Maybe they're just showing that the Others knew exactly where Sayid and Jin were.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

AJRitz said:


> We don't know this explicitly, but Desmond did live in the Losties' hatch for quite some time, and Ben has the ability to "spy" on that hatch, so it would be highly likely that he did know about Desmond.





Fish Man said:


> I don't think we know for certain that he has the ability to spy on that hatch.


It's totally possible that they can monitor that hatch from the video screen room. I bet that's where they contacted michael with the computer.

Think we'll see a Benjamin Linus backstory episode this season?


----------



## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> 100% I agree - I thought that too - but it seemed such an uninteresting place to monitor that I didn't feel like mentioning it.. Maybe they're just showing that the Others knew exactly where Sayid and Jin were.


Yes it most defiently does look like where they were hiding.

Also... in Camera #6 - that doesn't look like Kate but a smaller person. Perhaps that boy Alex was talking about (that broke out Sawyer last week)

It also looks like camera #1 changes, so the monitors perhaps rotate between differnt camears about the island.


----------



## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

Smaller person than Kate?


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

mask2343 said:


> Smaller person than Kate?


Look at screen 6 in Cherry Ghost's post above.

It looks like a small child in a cage like the ones Kate and Sawyer are in.

The person looks way too small to be Carl, who Sawyer met in last weeks episode (who was in the cage they later put Kate in). Carl was a 16 year old boy, roughly Kate's height, or perhaps slightly shorter. But this looks like an 8 - 10 year old kid. Well under 5' tall.

This small person's haircut also looks nothing like Sawyer, Carl, or Kate.

Apparently, there are more cages out of Kate and Sawyer's view.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Look at screen 6 in Cherry Ghost's post above.
> 
> It looks like a small child in a cage like the ones Kate and Sawyer are in.


Looks like Kate to me. Watch just before the scene cuts to the monitor. The horizontal bar is right about Kate's shoulder level. Thats exactly how it appears on monitor 6 also.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Look at screen 6 in Cherry Ghost's post above.
> 
> It looks like a small child in a cage like the ones Kate and Sawyer are in.
> 
> ...


That's Kate.


----------



## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> Looks like Kate to me. Watch just before the scene cuts to the monitor. The horizontal bar is right about Kate's shoulder level. Thats exactly how it appears on monitor 6 also.


It would have to be Kate. There are no other monitors showing her.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

IMO, it's Kate


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

stiffi said:


> It would have to be Kate. There are no other monitors showing her.


Its her, in the actual scene you can hear her talking to him.


----------



## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

MacThor said:


> So if you hadn't caught up last night you wouldn't be mad?
> 
> Due to our recent move, we lost HBO and I've got Deadwood S3 queued up on Netflix. Delayed or not, there's no reason to be spoiling MAJOR plot points for Deadwood in a Lost thread. Want to make a crack about Swearengen being po'd at Sun for shooting Trixie, go ahead. But the spoiler was uncalled for and clearly against forum rules.


You are right, that should not have been posted. However, since I delayed watching it so long, I would have not been as mad as if it was say, the week after the EP ran. Though, I suppose it is easy for me to say that now since I did not get spoiled.


----------



## JLWINE (Jun 18, 2002)

Delta13 said:


> The Others *clearly* have contact with the outside world - Bush reelection, Reeves death, and for the clincher - the actual FOX broadcast of the final out of the 2004 World Series! Which only happened a month prior to the stated date (Red Sox won on 10/27, Benry says it is now 11/29) so the tape didn't come on the slow boat.


Or at least access to a television signal via satellite or other means to the outside world. A lot of background information could also have been learned about the castaways from TV news coverage.


----------



## rbraddes (Aug 27, 2005)

I'm surprised that no one else caught this, but I guess that most people don't watch TV with subtitles...

When Colleen tells Danny that Ben is sending them off to get the sailboat, the subtitles say, "Ben wants us to take the Galaga".

Looks like they have a water craft of some sort...


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Or a spaceship.







.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

I hope they watch out for the aliens coming in off the side. Those were always a big pain.


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

If you like Juliet's combination of sweetness/creepiness, rent "Running Scared." I saw it a few nights ago and didn't even know Elizabeth Mitchell was in it until I saw her. She has a relatively small part but is very good - though the movie as a whole is just so-so. If you want more details, see below:



Spoiler



She plays a woman who appears to be a June Cleaver type but is actually a child molester/murderer, along with her husband.


----------



## Grumpy Pants (Jul 1, 2002)

Figaro said:


> Well I guess you would certainly be able to recognize a choker now wouldn't you?


Yes. They typically wear pinstripes.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Grumpy Pants said:


> Yes. They typically wear pinstripes.


That's odd for about eighty years they wore sox that were red in nature.


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Figaro said:


> That's odd for about eighty years they wore sox that were red in nature.


Straighten up and fly right


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

5thcrewman said:


> Straighten up and fly right


Dude why don't you take your tastless and tired act somewhere people find death of a person to be funny?


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

It's retro. I'm just recycling my '79 material.


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

5thcrewman said:


> Straighten up and fly right


Not funny. i don't care how much you hate the Yankees. The guy was born in California. He also played in Tampa, Oakland, Toronto, Cincinatti and Philly -- lots of non-Yankee fans have rooted for him. He has a son.

Then you make things worse by bringing up Thurman Munson.


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I noticed a few production errors I wanted to get out there:

1) Jin got off on the 2nd floor (as indicated by the 2 on the elevator) to give his "warning", but forced the guy into room 1516. I can't imagine he was thrown from the 2nd floor, so I think that was a production snafu.

2) As sawyer is forced to the ground once during the fight scene, as the camera pans up Kate to Juliette, I can see what looks to be an iPod headphone wire coming out of Kate's left hand and running up to the cleavage in her sundress (where I think it was tucked in to hide it). <edit: proved inaccurate a few posts down>

Note: I admit I didn't read this thread first. I searched it for "ipod" and "1516" and came up empty.


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

Granny said:


> Plot lines are becoming so wide I am caring less and less. I am trying to remember Hurley and Charlie and the rest, and what their stories are. Then, in a few weeks we will be thrown into the void again.


I agree. It was already difficult to follow this show for various reasons, and I am now getting increasingly concered that we have at least four different groups of people to keep track of. I feel like I'm watching _Alias_ again where I keep hoping that a once great show will be great again. _Lost_ hasn't reached the turd factor of _Alias_ yet, but they seem to be steaming along in that direction. I like the mystery but I want to feel like there's some sort of purpose for this endless maze of a plot.

This episode was particularly frustrating to watch on my local affiliate because of a rather useless "news" crawl on the screen that was obscuring the subtitles, so I checked out the internet version.









What you say, Sun?!








Oh, right. I knew that.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Judging from the screen shots ElJay, I'd say stick with the internet version. Nobody got shot 4 times on it, and it's widescreen and much brighter than yours!

And you may not be alone on the plot confusion - _Criminal Minds_ outdrew _Lost_ last night according to the overnight numbers. Wow, I never thought I'd ever hear myself saying that (and I like CM) ...


----------



## aepman (Oct 3, 2000)

Is this the first episode we've seen flashbacks from more than 1 person?

Todd


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> JAnd you may not be alone on the plot confusion - _Criminal Minds_ outdrew _Lost_ last night according to the overnight numbers. Wow, I never thought I'd ever hear myself saying that (and I like CM) ...


That is a wow!


----------



## Gene Plantz (Dec 31, 1999)

Fish Man said:


> Ben's either bald-faced lying about that, or he's telling the truth (actually lived his whole life, 45 - 50 or so years, there). I have no strong opinion about this either way.


maybe he is talking about his "born again" life........


----------



## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

Quoth Zap2It:


> CBS' "Criminal Minds" had a 10.9/16 in the 9 p.m. hour, beating the 10.2/15 for ABC's "Lost," though the ABC drama averaged more viewers.


The first number is households (I believe), so TECHNICALLY Criminal Minds had a higher rating, but more people watched Lost.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

aepman said:


> Is this the first episode we've seen flashbacks from more than 1 person?
> 
> Todd


No, they've done that with Jin and Sun before.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Gene Plantz said:


> maybe he is talking about his "born again" life........


Or maybe his entire life has been on the island, but he didn't start his life as an infant. He was created as an adult by the DHARMA project.

It is fun to make up nonsense theories


----------



## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

stalemate said:


> Or maybe his entire life has been on the island, but he didn't start his life as an infant. He was created as an adult by the DHARMA project.
> 
> It is fun to make up nonsense theories


Especially when this all makes so much sense.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Mike Farrington said:


> 2) As sawyer is forced to the ground once during the fight scene, as the camera pans up Kate to Juliette, I can see what looks to be an iPod headphone wire coming out of Kate's left hand and running up to the cleavage in her sundress (where I think it was tucked in to hide it).


I just checked (at the 25:40 mark on ABC.com, btw). It was just one of several strings that hang down on her dress. You can see them more clearly a little earlier while she's digging.

Was Tom/Mr. Friendly checking out Sawyer as he passed by Sawyer's cage at the beginning (6:25). Sure looked like it. Kate's not his type; Sawyer might be.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> With his only support being
> 1)a pregnant lady and
> 2)a guy who
> a) is going to be more concerned with making sure his pregnant wife is safe, and
> ...


But... but... but... it's _Sayid_!!


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


> I just checked (at the 25:40 mark on ABC.com, btw). It was just one of several strings that hang down on her dress. You can see them more clearly a little earlier while she's digging.


I just double-checked and you're correct, I take it back.

I thought she just had short tassles, but it turns out some of them are really long. The way one of them was wrapped in her left-hand just after Sawyer's post-fight stunning, I could have sworn she was clutching a small iPod.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I think Ben must have had done a great deal of planning to explain why he used Henry Gale's name. There was obviously no need to conceal his true name, that would have been of no value whatsoever to the Losties. Even if he had anticipated them digging up Henry Gale's body, the mere fact that it was a man's body would have revealed his lie about burying his wife. He knew so much about the balloon, he clearly planned things out in great detail in advance, so I can't believe that there wasn't some purpose to using the name Henry Gale.

I think there's no doubt that if he had wanted to lead them into a trap, like he suggested, that he could have. Given that the Others wanted the people on the list (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley), my guess is that perhaps it was part of a contingency plan based on who ended up going out to search for the body/parachute. He knew for sure that Sayid wouldn't leave any part of his story unconfirmed, which meant he would dig up the grave and find the guy's ID. I'm still trying to figure out what Ben accomplished by using Henry Gale's name though, but he clearly planned that whole thing out so intricately I'm inclined to believe there was some purpose.

I think the only thing we know for sure about Sun, Jae, and her pregnancy is that they were purposely ambiguous. "I can't" could have meant "I can't _anymore_ or "even though we're already at least partially naked in bed together, I can't go through with this." And we definitely don't know the timing of these events, which could possibly preclude Jae being the father, if he did indeed have sexual relations with that woman, Sun.

I admit I skimmed some of these posts, but are people actually thinking that the Others might actually be "good guys?" I mean, they might not be evil just for evil's sake, but they've kidnapped, tortured, murdered, imprisoned and enslaved people who posed no threat to them.

The Others might have the boat that Michael and Walt left with. They were told to follow a certain bearing (something SW IIRC) where they'd find rescue. Perhaps whoever they met up with returned their boat.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

pcguru83 said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. When Juliet brought Jack some soup, Ben made a comment to Juliet along the lines of "You never made me soup." My wife and I both picked up on it, and agreed that it almost insinuates that at one time Juliet had to break Ben. If that is indeed the case, that furthers brings into question whether or not Ben has acutally been on the island his entire life.
> 
> There don't seem to be any transcripts out for this episode out, but I'm keeping my eye out and I'll post the exact lines when I can find them. Maybe I'll just watch it again...


I had the exact same reaction. Definitely felt like there might be a little double-meaning to that line, with a possible previous relationship as well as a hint that maybe Henry was at one point locked up much like Jack. :up:


----------



## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

jradford said:


> I had the exact same reaction. Definitely felt like there might be a little double-meaning to that line, with a possible previous relationship as well as a hint that maybe Henry was at one point locked up much like Jack. :up:


there's definately some close past with them.. first he's pushed out of the book club, and now the line with the soup.. i don't know about him being locked up before.. he seems to have a higher status since he's doing all the monitoring and giving orders..


----------



## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

robbhimself said:


> there's definately some close past with them.. first he's pushed out of the book club, and now the line with the soup.. i don't know about him being locked up before.. he seems to have a higher status since he's doing all the monitoring and giving orders..


Maybe the whole Others project is some sort of leadership retreat, possibly even volunteered for!

They put the "candidate" through a bunch of trials, allowing them advance to a certain strata, before finally getting to lead the group and take on a new "candidate".

Ben was a captive, navigated the trials, and now leads the group.

Juliet is a few steps behind, possibly even "stuck" in her current position. Hence the resentment toward Ben.

Jack is the new "candidate". He's obviously the leader of the losties, and he's in the first steps of being tested.

Couldn't you just see a large mutinational company like Microsoft or Starbucks, lining up their execs for just such a program?


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, if so, I'm sorry, but the whole short conversation about the boat is interesting. Connie asks if she is interrupting, and Juliet replies, "Does it matter?" or something like that. Then Connie, ignoring Juliet and her reply tells Ben that they have a boat. Juliet shrugs and comments that they can sail around in circles all they want, it will keep them busy. Connie emphatically states that "They could find us!" Ben then tells her to get a team together, and that he wants that boat. 

The, they could find us, line is the most interesting piece of information, I think. Although it does not really look like it from most of what we have seen, they must be on, or close enough to the beach to be seen from a boat. They have a fake village, but they are very concerned about their real one being discovered. That fear is an exploitable weakness I think.

Everything that they are doing to the captives is psychological conditioning of some type.

Juliet was listening to "Downtown" when the plane crashed, and Desmond was listening to it when the hatch was blown. Saving money on royalty fees, or some sort of clue/message?

Ben told Jack, "Yes, if we could leave, why do we stay?" I think it safe to say that Locke will stay to keep the use of his legs, and Rose will stay to keep in remission, so I believe the "others" have reasons to stay that are similar.


----------



## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

Church AV Guy said:


> Ben told Jack, "Yes, if we could leave, why do we stay?" I think it safe to say that Locke will stay to keep the use of his legs, and Rose will stay to keep in remission, so I believe the "others" have reasons to stay that are similar.


And Jin and Sun will stay because they had a miraculous birth occur, not to mention, if they go back to Korea (?) Sun, or Jin, or Both will be tracked down by her father.

Sawyer and Kate will be arrested by U.S. and Australian Authorities.

Sayid could end up in an Iraqi court next to Saddam being tried as a war criminal.

Hurley would be insane again, and possibly institutionalized

Charlie would be an addict and maybe arrested

Etc...

I've thought this for a long time, that every single person would eventually be shown to have a reason to leave the outside world forever.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Church AV Guy said:


> Juliet was listening to "Downtown" when the plane crashed, and Desmond was listening to it when the hatch was blown. Saving money on royalty fees, or some sort of clue/message?


 No, Desmond was listening to "Make Your Own Kind of Music" by Mama Cass. Very similar musical style though.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I think Ben must have had done a great deal of planning to explain why he used Henry Gale's name. There was obviously no need to conceal his true name, that would have been of no value whatsoever to the Losties.


Sure there is. What if the Losties had somehow heard the name Ben. What if one of the others had slipped up and said his name in one of the previous encounters. Ben wouldn't know, and maybe noone would realize it. Of course, that doesn't give him a good reason to use the Henry Gale name, but it is reason not to use his own name.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Church AV Guy said:


> Although it does not really look like it from most of what we have seen, they must be on, or close enough to the beach to be seen from a boat.


What do you mean, it does not look like it? Last week, we saw them bring Kate out of a building and walk right up to an oceanside breakfast. We can be reasonably sure that Jack is in an underwater area, yet Juliet quickly makes it from Jack to Kate and Sawyer. I think there has been sufficient evidence that they are right on the water.


----------



## Blackssr (Mar 4, 2004)

hanumang said:


> Never mind the best line, the best 'moment' of this episode was Sayid's reaction to Jin 'knowing' how to work the gun. _Priceless_


Wrong! The best moment of the show was Kate bending over in that sexy dress! Great ass! Priceless.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Good news. 

The podcast has returned to its audio mp3 format.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

scheckeNYK said:


> can someone (hefe) dig up the dialouge from Ben's speech about current events? I think I remember him saying "your country re-elected George W. Bush" which to me rings very strangely. Of course we don't know where they are, and it seems Ben has always been an island inhabitant, but they all seem very Americanized. Maybe I am putting too much emphasis on the word "your" but it seems to separate Dharma/The Others, or at least Ben from our country/society. Makes their origins that much more interesting.


He said:

"...you've been on our island for 69 days. And yes, we do have contact with the outside world, Jack. That's how we know that during those 69 days your fellow Americans re-elected George W. Bush. Christopher Reeve has passed away. The Boston Red Sox won the World Series."

Interesting way to say it. Of course, Benry may not really feel like a citizen of any country if his whole life has been spent on that island.


----------



## Supfreak26 (Dec 12, 2003)

Finally got through the thread. Here are my thoughts...

1. Much better episode this week. Answered a LOT of questions, IMO. And less Jack is always a good thing.

2. Sun and baldie DID have sex. Those of you questioning this are grasping at straws. You do realize they can't show actual intercourse on network television, right? They have to use other (extremely obvious) ways to show they have had sex (and obviously more than once by the way they looked so comfortable together!)

3. I'm betting that baldie is Sun's baby daddy. The above relevation proves that IF the timeline fits. I'm sure we'll see that soon (or next season the way this show goes.)

4. Sawyer is the MAN! If the Others aren't afraid of him, they should be. If Kate would've been on even half of her game, they'd be free already. I can see the Others breaking Kate down but Sawyer is going to be one tough nut to crack. 

5. Speaking of Kate... IBIMB!!

6. The chain gang thing seemed a little weak, IMO. And it was a HUGE oversight to ignore the other folks swinging axes around them. Where would these other prisoners come from? They barely showed them on camera at all.

7. No way Benry sends Jack home. He's going to use that promise as a carrot to get him to do his bidding until he's completely brainwashed. As bad as they've portrayed him lately, it won't be a stretch for him to convert to the dark side.

8. Sayid's plan was just awful. It might've had a chance if the Others were complete idiots or were not on their home turf. As it was, they were sitting ducks. I'm glad Sun escaped, though. They have enough prisoners. Interested to see how the Others react to Trixie being shot. 


Great episode! Much much better than last week!


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

mqpickles said:


> No, Desmond was listening to "Make Your Own Kind of Music" by Mama Cass. Very similar musical style though.


Eek, you are right, and I am embarrassed. Note to self, never post something without checking first. I really thought it was the same song, so thanks for clarifying that for me.


----------



## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

A couple of observations:

I think there is a big difference between the others' having "contact" with the outside world and actually "communicating" with the outside world. As a few have suggested, that may just get newspapers and videotapes dropped with the rest of their supplies from Dharma. I don't think we have any strong evidence that they can actually communicate with the outside world. I guess the only counterargument is the info on Jack. 

Also, I thought it was interesting that Ben went to talk to Jack right after seeing the Sawyer/Kate exchange on the video monitors. It struck me that he seemed a bit concerned about Sawyer's recon mission, and so decided to try to accelerate things with jack a bit.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I would think that if Sun was having an affair she would be VERY careful about birth control. With no "island miracle" explanation and DNA testing available she and Jai both would've been in huge trouble. The baby must be Jin's.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Supfreak26 said:


> I'm betting that baldie is Sun's baby daddy.


Well, we'll know for sure if the baby is born bald. Right?????


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I would think that if Sun was having an affair she would be VERY careful about birth control. With no "island miracle" explanation and DNA testing available she and Jai both would've been in huge trouble. The baby must be Jin's.


So you're saying that she probably wouldn't act recklessly while screwing around on her husband, who by the way, just happens to kill people for a living. (Sorry, hope that doesn't sound sarcastic). Also, while we don't know the time lines exactly, she and Jin were trying to conceive, so for that reason I'd have to guess she wasn't using birth control.


----------



## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> So you're saying that she probably wouldn't act recklessly while screwing around on her husband, who by the way, just happens to kill people for a living. (Sorry, hope that doesn't sound sarcastic). Also, while we don't know the time lines exactly, she and Jin were trying to conceive, so for that reason I'd have to guess she wasn't using birth control.


I don't think he's killed anyone, but he did rough 'em up. Remember he couldn't kill Jai when it was clear that his father-in-law wanted Jai dead.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> The Others might have the boat that Michael and Walt left with. They were told to follow a certain bearing (something SW IIRC) where they'd find rescue. Perhaps whoever they met up with returned their boat.


I think the bearing they gave them was northwest. I don't remember exactly what it was, but I remember thinking that if the island is where we think it is, it would take them somewhere toward the Phillipines or Indonesia.



Supfreak26 said:


> 6. The chain gang thing seemed a little weak, IMO. And it was a HUGE oversight to ignore the other folks swinging axes around them. Where would these other prisoners come from? They barely showed them on camera at all.


I didn't think these people were prisoners at all. I just thought they were other Others helping with the overall project. Perhaps the guards are higher up in the chain of command so they don't have to do manual labor, but it's not like all their stuff gets built by slave labor. They have to have some of their own people helping if they're planning to build something there.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

drew2k said:


> I'm being facetious here


This is something that clearly shouldn't be tried at home.

What preceeded that statement is all pretty reasonable in the Lost world.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

speedcouch said:


> how more worldy Sawyer is compared to the goodie-goodie Jack.


The character "Jack" is in a position much like the actor. A minor and disposable character accidentally pushed center stage, and struggling.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

devdogaz said:


> I didn't think these people were prisoners at all. I just thought they were other Others helping with the overall project.


Other kidnapees from the tail section?


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Also, while we don't know the time lines exactly, she and Jin were trying to conceive, so for that reason I'd have to guess she wasn't using birth control.


There _are_ birth control methods you can use with your boyfriend but not use with your husband...


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

mqpickles said:


> Funny, during that scene, I wondered if they were hinting at heaven, the "eternal home."
> 
> But I think he did mean the US. Also, schekeNYK, Ben sure sounded like he meant he would personally escort Jack home. Stranger and stranger.


Not when you consoder the last ep. of season 2... IIRC, didn't "Ben" say Sawyer, KAte, and JAck were "coming HOME with us?"


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

desulliv said:


> I don't think he's killed anyone, but he did rough 'em up. Remember he couldn't kill Jai when it was clear that his father-in-law wanted Jai dead.


I finally watched it last night (can't remember last time it took me two days before watching a Lost episode).

The thing is, *we* know that Jin didn't kill Jae, but does Sun know that? All we were shown was that he left saying that he had to do it (it's the price of being married to her -- how's that for guilt), and next thing she finds out is that Jae is dead. I have this gut feel that a future flashback will prove otherwise, but from what we've been shown, Sun would think that Jin killed Jae. Perhaps _that's_ what pushed her into leaving Jin in the first place.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Church AV Guy said:


> The, they could find us, line is the most interesting piece of information, I think. Although it does not really look like it from most of what we have seen, they must be on, or close enough to the beach to be seen from a boat. They have a fake village, but they are very concerned about their real one being discovered. That fear is an exploitable weakness I think.


I agree that it's important, but I have a slightly different take on it. The line was spoken while they were in the underwater hatch. I think she was afraid that, while traveling by boat, they would find the hatch. This could mean that the hatch is not very deep underwater, and may even have a part that protrudes above water (like the entry).


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Well, we'll know for sure if the baby is born bald. Right?????


All joking aside, no, that wouldn't tell us anything! Baldness is passed down by the mother.. So if the baby was born and grew up and started going bald, it'd mean Jin had it to pass down (but it doesn't manifest itself in women often). To predict if the kid would be bald someday, you'd have to look at Sun's brothers for a guess, or possibly at Sun's mother's sister's sons (if Sun's mother had a sister) for a less precise guess.

Take it from a balding guy.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> So you're saying that she probably wouldn't act recklessly while screwing around on her husband, who by the way, just happens to kill people for a living. (Sorry, hope that doesn't sound sarcastic). Also, while we don't know the time lines exactly, she and Jin were trying to conceive, so for that reason I'd have to guess she wasn't using birth control.


Again, as was said above, he hasn't killed anyone that we've seen yet, but Jin probably doesn't know that..

But the unique part of my reply here is that while Jin might be feared, he's feared because he works for Sun's father! I'd feel relatively safe if I were Sun (except of course for the fact that her father is so disappointed in her and all..  )

Edit: Still, I'd use birth control!


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

wprager said:


> I finally watched it last night (can't remember last time it took me two days before watching a Lost episode).
> 
> The thing is, *we* know that Jin didn't kill Jae, but does Sun know that? All we were shown was that he left saying that he had to do it (it's the price of being married to her -- how's that for guilt), and next thing she finds out is that Jae is dead. I have this gut feel that a future flashback will prove otherwise, but from what we've been shown, Sun would think that Jin killed Jae. Perhaps _that's_ what pushed her into leaving Jin in the first place.


When Jin returned to the apartment after seeing Sun's father, Jin threw his folder on Jae onto a chair and covered it with his jacket. Sun didn't open the folder, so Sun has no idea that Jin was sent to kill Jae, and she would not suspect Jin of having any complicity in Jae's death.

(By the way, Sun's father told Sun at Jae's funeral service that he did not and would not tell Jin about Sun and Jae, so as of this point in the flashback history, Jin does not know his wife was unfaithful.)


----------



## jubrand (May 11, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Or a spaceship.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+10
:up:  :up:


----------



## niea_7 (Nov 5, 2003)

I think Sun is pregnant with Jin's child. The dates don't really make a lot of sense for it to be Jae's child. Well, unless the writers don't know what they're doing.

According to Lostpedia, the episode Sun got her positive pregnancy test represents days 58-59 (roughly 8 weeks) after the plane crash. 

When a woman conceives she is already considered to be 2 weeks pregnant (because dating goes back to the first day of her last period). If she is carrying Jae's child, this means she has to be at least 10 weeks pregnant. And this is assuming she conceived the day of the flight, which is unlikely. So probably if it is Jae's, she'd be further along than that anyway.

Now, if a woman is going to get morning sickness, it usually sets in pretty quickly. If a woman hasn't gotten morning sickness by 8 weeks (6 weeks after conception), then chances are she's not going to really get it. For the vast majority if women, morning sickness greatly reduces by 12 weeks pregnancy. It's possible that Sun wouldn't have gotten morning sickness until 10 weeks pregnant, when she decided to test, but not all that likely.

So. . if she tested because she suddenly started feeling dizzy and nauseated, then I'd say it's much more likely she's only 6-8 weeks pregnant and as a result, had to conceive on the island. Assuming Jin is the only man she's been with on the island, my guess is that the child is his.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

drew2k said:


> When Jin returned to the apartment after seeing Sun's father, Jin threw his folder on Jae onto a chair and covered it with his jacket. Sun didn't open the folder, so Sun has no idea that Jin was sent to kill Jae, and she would not suspect Jin of having any complicity in Jae's death.
> 
> (By the way, Sun's father told Sun at Jae's funeral service that he did not and would not tell Jin about Sun and Jae, so as of this point in the flashback history, Jin does not know his wife was unfaithful.)


Except that Sun knew her father found out about she and Jae and is disappointed. She knows her father is powerful and ruthless. Next thing she knows is that Jin has an assignment from her father that he doesn't want to do, but feels like he has to. She knows he's been involved with some pretty rough stuff in the past, so for him to be hesitant about this assignment means it's pretty serious. Then Jin goes to perform the assignment, and during the timeframe while he is gone, Jae turns up dead. I don't think it would take much of a leap for Sun to put all these things together and realize that Jae's death wasn't a coincidence.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

niea_7 said:


> Assuming Jin is the only man she's been with on the island.


With that kind of rigid thinking, you will never be a writer for Lost.

My theory is the father was the guy that got sucked into the engine. That extremely brief tryst will all be spelled out in a future back story.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Redux said:


> My theory is the father was the guy that got sucked into the engine.


That was Gary Troup. His name is an anagram for "purgatory". You can read his book 
Bad Twin.

I believe he was at a table near Sun/Jin at the airport in a back story scene.

Edit: Gary Troup is discussed here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/27/books/27lost.html?ex=1161057600&en=8de92b8f54d3e56d&ei=5070

From a VP of ABC: "Troup can be seen being sucked into an airplane engine in the first episode."


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

If you google Benjamin Linus, you get www.hansoadoptions.org. Click on the blank line at the bottom of the page. Intesting Dharma logo.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

i'm SURE it has been discussed here before, BUT

w/ the hanso site about adoption and such, couldn't the island be like a semi breeding ground, and that's why they want the children, to breed them to sell them for adoption?

or, the project closed down and took all the children w/ them, and so the others want children to continue going on.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

mask2343 said:


> If you google Benjamin Linus, you get www.hansoadoptions.org. Click on the blank line at the bottom of the page. Intesting Dharma logo.


Okay, that is freaky.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

That doesn't look like an official ABC site, so it's just created by fans, right?
(I forget exactly what the line is on the "official" sites)


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

I have a question maybe someone can answer for me.....

I watched the show religiously, but last year missed the last several shows of the season. I think I just got to a point where I was tired that they kept introducing new mysteries without explaining away any of the old ones. So my question is...

Have they cleared up any mysteries yet? I saw the opening for this season and I see a whole community of people... "the others". Well, when the "others" were introduced, they were a mystery. Are they any less of one now?

I'd just like to get a handle on some things before I get myself hooked again. I mean, I don't mind being hooked on a show, but I don't want to keep watching something over and over unless things finally get resolved. So has anything been resolved yet?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

ABC does not show as the owner of this website, so I go with fake. Nice try, though.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

bobcarn said:


> I have a question maybe someone can answer for me.....
> 
> I watched the show religiously, but last year missed the last several shows of the season. I think I just got to a point where I was tired that they kept introducing new mysteries without explaining away any of the old ones. So my question is...
> 
> ...


Nothing has been resolved. Status quo met.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Some mysteries may have been cleared up, but I agree, nothing's been resolved yet. I think it's safe to say the Others are definitely no less a mystery than they were before. Much more, based on what we've seen so far.

But remember, there's only 6 episodes to start the season, then it goes on break until January, then straight on till the end of the season. No reruns.


----------



## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

I don't think it comes back till March. Not Jan.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Actually, we're both wrong. February 7th is the projected restart date ...


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Delta13 said:


> Actually, we're both wrong. February 7th is the projected restart date ...


I wonder if the recent quake in Hawaii is going to effect that date?


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Delta13 said:


> Some mysteries may have been cleared up, but I agree, nothing's been resolved yet. I think it's safe to say the Others are definitely no less a mystery than they were before. Much more, based on what we've seen so far.
> 
> But remember, there's only 6 episodes to start the season, then it goes on break until January, then straight on till the end of the season. No reruns.


OK. When you say "some mysteries may have been cleared up", that gives me some hope. But it depends on what you mean by mysteries. I mean, here's things I thought were real myseries....

1) The purpose of the project inside that hatch
2) The island's monster
3) The Others

I know shows like the X-Files had an ongoing mystery that was never resolved until the end, but the majority of the show didn't center around it. I'm just hoping that as some new things are introduced, other things are laid to rest. I'd like to start watching it again, but with all of the shows I want to see, I have a limit to how much time I can spend in front of the TV. Here's an example....

Heroes has introduced that NYC will be devastated by a major explosion. That only happens a few weeks into the future. I'm pretty comfortable that the entire series, over multiple seasons and years, won't just cover a few weeks of real time. Most likely, those mini-plots will be resolved, and new ones introduced.

That's what I'm hoping Lost is doing.... resolving some mini-plots. When I was watching the Tivo'd eppy over the weekend, I got the same feeling I always got. "Wow! That was totally cool! I can't wait to see the explanation behind this! ... Oh wait. I've been saying that for a couple years now and still haven't seen an explanation."


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## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

bobcarn said:


> ... Oh wait. I've been saying that for a couple years now and still haven't seen an explanation."


Nothing's changed in that regard. As usual, the more we learn, the more we don't know.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Mike Farrington said:


> I wonder if the recent quake in Hawaii is going to effect that date?


One hopes not, though it might depend on any damage (if any) they took to sets and such. But the big problem is that the schedule *cannot* slip. Starting February 7th and going for 17 weeks meaning ending on May 30th.

One slip, and out of the sweeps they go! And on the season finale, of all things. But I'll bet they're fine.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Mike Farrington said:


> I wonder if the recent quake in Hawaii is going to effect that date?


D'y'think one of the LOST cast pressed another button and caused the quake? D'Oh!


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

One thing I don't think I saw mentioned here, is througout the first two seasons didn't we always here how the others wanted "good" people.

So saying Sawyer & Kate are on the chain gang because they're bad, doesn't really follow that basic idea that the others want good people (like all the kids).

I think the chain gang is where most of the people the others capture go at first, but Jack is wanted for another purpose, maybe his doctor skills, so he's not doing the hard labor.

-smak-


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

smak said:


> I think the chain gang is where most of the people the others capture go at first, but Jack is wanted for another purpose, maybe his doctor skills, so he's not doing the hard labor.
> 
> -smak-


We all think Jack is in a better position than Kate and Sawyer to avoid pain or suffering, but wouldn't it be a cool twist if we find out that Jack somehow suffers more or is in greater danger than Kate and Sawyer, who so far are only laboring in the sun?


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

drew2k said:


> We all think Jack is in a better position than Kate and Sawyer to avoid pain or suffering, but wouldn't it be a cool twist if we find out that Jack somehow suffers more or is in greater danger than Kate and Sawyer, who so far are only laboring in the sun?


He is in an underwater pen, right? The shark might come back.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

balboa dave said:


> He is in an underwater pen, right? The shark might come back.


James Woods is on Lost?


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

hefe said:


> James Woods is on Lost?


Funny. But I was thinking of the one that was eyeing Sawyer.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

bobcarn said:


> 1) The purpose of the project inside that hatch
> 2) The island's monster
> 3) The Others


1. pretty much resolved, if by "that hatch" you mean the one where they spent most of last season pushing a button every 108 minutes.
2. not resolved
3. some minor points resolved, some more major and minor questions raised.



bobcarn said:


> That's what I'm hoping Lost is doing.... resolving some mini-plots.


I'd say they're doing that, but whether you would be satisfied depends on what kinds of questions you're wanting answered and what level of proof you require to consider a matter settled (some people here are not satisfied by any answer shown if there is a metaphysical possibility of another alternative, however remote). I could give some examples, but they would likely spoil some episodes you haven't seen.

I can say this. It seems to me that the people (including some people here and my husband) who were starting to get annoyed the middle of last season have generally not been satisfied by the second half of last season or the first two episodes of this season. Those of us who are okay with the pace of the show and resolution of mysteries are those who have never had a problem with those things.

In other words, I don't know of anyone who thinks, "Boy, in January this show was really starting to piss me off, but now they've answered enough questions that I feel much better about it again." These people may exist, but I don't know about them.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

mqpickles said:


> 1. pretty much resolved, if by "that hatch" you mean the one where they spent most of last season pushing a button every 108 minutes.
> 2. not resolved
> 3. some minor points resolved, some more major and minor questions raised.
> 
> ...


I may be one of those people starting to get annoyed. I mean, I wasn't really "annoyed", just a bit tired of getting strung along.

They know the purpose of the project inside that hatch? Why they had to keep pressing that button?

As for the level of "proof" needed.... I'm not sure what you mean by "proof". I definitely don't want resolutions to revolve around "given this information, this is the most probable reason". Rather, I'd like a resolution to be something like "Hey. We found this booklet inside this locker. It was a diary from the guy that invented this project. Here's why they built this bunker and kept pushing the button." Something like that.

Maybe I best just stick with my other shows. There's so many shows on I like, there's just not enough time for me to watch them all. As much as I enjoy Lost (I was hooked from the very first opening show), they need to give me some meat once in a while. Instead I've only received Spam.

Mind you, I _like_ Spam, but only as _part_ of a nutritious meal, not as the only item on the plate.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> I may be one of those people starting to get annoyed. I mean, I wasn't really "annoyed", just a bit tired of getting strung along.
> 
> They know the purpose of the project inside that hatch? Why they had to keep pressing that button?


They know what happens when you don't press the button. How much more of a spoiler do you want?


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

Delta13 said:


> One hopes not, though it might depend on any damage (if any) they took to sets and such. But the big problem is that the schedule *cannot* slip. Starting February 7th and going for 17 weeks meaning ending on May 30th.
> 
> One slip, and out of the sweeps they go! And on the season finale, of all things. But I'll bet they're fine.


I don't see why it should... the quake was on the big island, and they film on oahu. i heard power has been disrupted throughout the islands, but that should be easy to fix inside a month.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

bobcarn said:


> Rather, I'd like a resolution to be something like "Hey. We found this booklet inside this locker. It was a diary from the guy that invented this project. Here's why they built this bunker and kept pushing the button." Something like that.


We don't know everything yet (still need to keep us watching), but we know a few things:


Spoiler



- After the Cuban missile crisis, the UN commisioned Valenzetti to study the end of the world
- Valenzetti equation tracks different factors that affect life and the end of the world:
electromagnetism, zoology, psychology, virology, etc. The key constants in the equation are 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42.
- Degroots funded by Hanso are researching the factors that affect the various parts of the equation through the various parts of the DHARMA project.
- The Swan hatch was investigating electromagnetism and suffered an "incident"
- After the "incident", a dangerous build up of energy in the Swan hatch was periodically alleviated by feeding it the numbers and pushing the button
- The "failsafe" blew the whole thing.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Spoiler



See how unsatisfying that was if you just read it now without watching, rather than having watched all the episodes? The destination isn't nearly as interesting as the journey.

How much time do we spend thinking about where someone was born and where they died? Not much. It's what they did during their lives that's interesting.

I'm telling you, it's the journey...


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## Hurley48 (Oct 18, 2006)

MikeMar said:


> Before reading all 100+ posts so far, had to comment on the Red Sox thing, saw Jack's reaction as soon it was mentioned, but still funny  very well done.


Jacks fathers favorite quote: "That's why the Red Sox are never gonna win the Series". Is he behind this???

About Ben beeing born on the island... Suppose survivors from the Black Rock have lived on the island for generations. And that _they_ have overtaken the Dharma peoples village. And then we have the four toe thingy...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

It's really on tonight! Can't wait.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> It's really on tonight! Can't wait.


But waiting is part of the journey!


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Hurley48 said:


> Suppose survivors from the Black Rock have lived on the island for generations.





Spoiler



BTW: The captain of the Black Rock was Magnus Hanso, the grandfather of Alvar Hanso who funded the DHARMA project.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Figaro said:


> But waiting is part of the journey!


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## Mike20878 (Jun 8, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> All joking aside, no, that wouldn't tell us anything! Baldness is passed down by the mother.. So if the baby was born and grew up and started going bald, it'd mean Jin had it to pass down (but it doesn't manifest itself in women often). To predict if the kid would be bald someday, you'd have to look at Sun's brothers for a guess, or possibly at Sun's mother's sister's sons (if Sun's mother had a sister) for a less precise guess.
> 
> Take it from a balding guy.


I think that's a fallacy. My mother insists there was no baldness in her family but I've been losing my hair over the last several years. My dad is bald and lost his at 18. Luckily it didn't start for me until about 30. I'm 36 now and I've got classic male pattern baldness.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Since this thread got bumped, I'll add this (which may have been posted, but I don't remember seeing it).

I listened to the official podcast which recapped this episode and Lindeloff and Cuse stated specifically that Sun and Jae DID have an affair. In fact, they said that when they shot the first part of the story with Sun and Jae for the episode in S2, Yunjin Kim (the actress who plays Sun) told them she wanted to play the relationship as if they were having an affair and they told her to go ahead and do so, because that wasn't inaccurate.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

But was it a _sexless_ affair?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

MacThor said:


> But was it a _sexless_ affair?


I guess it depends on your definition of love ...

*af‧fair*  /əˈfɛər/ [uh-fair]
_noun_
6.	an intense amorous relationship, usually of short duration.

_*am‧o‧rous*  /ˈæmərəs/ [am-er-uhs]
adjective_
1.	inclined or disposed to love, esp. sexual love: an amorous disposition.
2.	showing or expressing love: an amorous letter.
3.	of or pertaining to love: amorous poetry.
4.	being in love; enamored: She smiled and at once he became amorous of her.

*love*  /lʌv/ [luhv]
_noun_
1.	a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
2.	a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
3.	sexual passion or desire.
4.	a person toward whom love is felt; beloved person; sweetheart.
5.	(used in direct address as a term of endearment, affection, or the like): Would you like to see a movie, love?
6.	a love affair; an intensely amorous incident; amour.
7.	sexual intercourse; copulation.
8.	(initial capital letter) a personification of sexual affection, as Eros or Cupid.
9.	affectionate concern for the well-being of others: the love of one's neighbor.
10.	strong predilection, enthusiasm, or liking for anything: her love of books.
11.	the object or thing so liked: The theater was her great love.
12.	the benevolent affection of God for His creatures, or the reverent affection due from them to God.
13.	Chiefly Tennis. a score of zero; nothing.
14.	a word formerly used in communications to represent the letter L.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

OK, I'm going to say this once, and by all means, please don't take it the wrong way.

Shut the hell up!

Greg


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gchance said:


> OK, I'm going to say this once, and by all means, please don't take it the wrong way.
> 
> Shut the hell up!
> 
> Greg


How could that possibly be taken the wrong way?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

gchance said:


> OK, I'm going to say this once, and by all means, please don't take it the wrong way.
> 
> Shut the hell up!
> 
> Greg


Well, something struck a nerve, that's for sure!


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