# is there any redeeming quality to Hydra?



## David R (Apr 10, 2018)

I love TiVo. I literally got my first TiVo in late 1999 and have owned at least a dozen. I described myself as a TiVolutionary. 

...then the DVR cable boxes came. My friends asked me why I still used TiVo. It’s the user interface and reliability I told them. Sure, I tried the Cox DVR - it was horrible. I always came back to TiVo. 
A week ago my Bolt+ (one of four TiVo’s I own now) says that there’s a new experience to upgrade to. Great! I go through the process - the system reboots, and... flashing lights of death. My $400 TiVo is now a brick. 
But I love TiVo so much, I overnight a new TiVo from Amazon. The new TiVo comes with the new experience - great! This will be cool!

Three days in and I hate it. It’s not that I’m just not used to it yet, it’s that the new UI sucks. How many times do I have to click on Select/Play to get a recording to actually play? I still can’t reliably delete something that I’ve just watched. And the damn thing just locks up and hiccups all the time. 

The main things that separated TiVo from the generic cable box (UI and reliability) are now gone. I search the TiVo Community forums and /r/TiVo... the problems I’m seeing today are literally the same problems that users were reporting back in October!

So what’s the deal? Does anyone like Hydra? Is there hope? What about my $400 brick that died during the upgrade?
I used to say “join the TiVolution”, but now I’m thinking about walking away.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I certainly would call TiVo about the bricking and see what can be done--and I would assume that TiVo would want to know.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

It's possible you had a hard drive failure, which can be replaced fairly easily. Tivo also has a Continual Care Plan if you were paying monthly/annual.

As for Hydra, the community here is basically 50/50. If you're thinking of reverting, revert early while you're still low on recordings. Reverting wipes the system clean, which is why you'll want to consider doing it sooner rather than later. You can always (reasonably safely) go back to Hydra later.

I'm not a big fan of Hydra either, and I'm also a bit salty about it knowing they married themselves to the design concept before any user testing, and ignored almost all their usability feedback for a year to get it out on schedule.

My basic guess is that Hydra is at least a year away from being what most would consider "polished" and even then there's no guarantee the other 50% are going to like it because there's no telling how long Tivo is going to continue to ignore or cherry-pick feedback.

The next update (anytime now) still isn't going to make things much better as far as usability goes, and in fact it makes one big change to the Home screen that will inevitably be controversial here, so we can only cross our fingers and hope a summer update actually incorporates what will then be 18 months of feedback.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I haven't really seen any glowing reviews of Hydra. I've seen people who kind of like it and think it has promise, but I haven't seen anyone who loves it. I'm sure there are a few, but I don't think it's anywhere near 50/50. 

I personally hate it. But mainly because TiVo made some bad choices that hinder usability. I think it looks cool, but that's about it. It's horrible to actually try and use.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

I have a Bolt and don't seem to have the problems most people are having with it, Tivo's are not perfect but most of the problems don't relate to/predate Hydra. When you read about the pain and frustrations people go through with Tablo's and some other units. Tivo is still the best solution for people who just want to watch and record TV, no mandatory streaming to watch, no playing with external storage that doesn't want cooperate. The easiest solution of course is to rent a box from your provider, but you're renting it. People who work with Windows 8 and 10 adapt to Hydra the quickest. Menu tile based systems are the future for devices with screens. Polishing may never happen, remember the old Tivo UI was a product of years of evolution.


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

If you're just a 'few days in' and hating I'm quite sure there's a 'return window' likely available. You mention having 4 so one out of service shouldn't have you out of business. I'd investigate the what's wrong withe the Bolt+. Is the failed Bolt+ an 'All-In/Lifetime' box or you're paying subscription fees?


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

David R said:


> Does anyone like Hydra?


I have been using it since release day... 99.99% of my daily activity is the same... I watch my recordings. Regarding the interface it looks more "modern" and some things are easier and some things are harder to accomplish. If I had to pick I'd take Hydra although bottom line it has been a complete non-event.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

I don't get why some shortcuts are gone and when going to my shows it's extra steps to GET to my show. It LOOKS nice but usability and user friendliness is lacking.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> *The next update* (anytime now) still isn't going to make things much better as far as usability goes, and in fact it* makes one big change to the Home screen that will inevitably be controversial here*, so we can only cross our fingers and hope a summer update actually incorporates what will then be 18 months of feedback.


Any chance you could save me some time spent digging through various threads and tip me off to this "big change to the Home screen"? (tia)


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

krkaufman said:


> Any chance you could save me some time spent digging through various threads and tip me off to this "big change to the Home screen"? (tia)


Think horizontally.

Unfortunately, that's not a euphemism.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

TiVo support is starting a rumor that there will be a Hydra release latter this month.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

David R said:


> So what's the deal?


From what I've read, it's a clean start. It's all of the TiVo code rewritten in a way that gives them a runway to develop the platform without running into whatever the constraints with previous code base were.



David R said:


> The main things that separated TiVo from the generic cable box (UI and reliability) are now gone.


The UI on my Hydra boxes is now similar to the high-end cable box that my cable company has been offering for awhile now (Cox Contour). Cox has been advertising the hell (also for awhile now) that Contour can do voice searches. Hydra just brought that capability to TiVo. I don't think TiVo had an efficient path forward with the old code when it comes to adding major new functionality like that. But who knows...


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## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

I love the Continue Watching strip.

I think the [Hit Down Arrow in Live TV] feature has promise, but so far it isn't that intelligent.

The HDUI was long in the tooth - almost 8 years old. It was still very usable, but I was ready for a UI refresh.

I like how the interface is in a single container now. No more cycling between the home screen container and the video window container. I would always get audio dropouts going in either direction in the HDUI, which was a small but annoying issue.

I like how UI interactions all get pushed onto a stack now, which allows you to hit the Back button to go back in time for all previous button presses. This comes in handy at times.


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## zirzlo (Jul 5, 2004)

I gave it 60 days. I figured by then I'd be used to all the changes. I figured wrong. I really wanted to like it, and yes, it looked cool, but actually using it was a PITA. I was using it on a Roamio Pro with 2 Minis. At the end of the day though, I bit the bullet and downgraded. What really did it for me was watching live sports, especially hockey. While watching anything really, but it was more evident in live sports broadcasts, the video would occasionally "speed up". It was almost as though it would temporarily go into Quick-mode for a second or two then video would return to normal speed; sound wasn't affected though. I wasn't really sure I was seeing what I just described, but when I downgraded, everything was smooth again. I also didn't realize how much slower Hydra was until I went back. I had a feeling things were slower, but didn't really notice how much until I went back and things were much snappier. It was worth going back for me!


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

krkaufman said:


> Any chance you could save me some time spent digging through various threads and tip me off to this "big change to the Home screen"? (tia)


Two horizontal strips. Cartoonishly large prediction bar.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I haven't really seen any glowing reviews of Hydra. I've seen people who kind of like it and think it has promise, but I haven't seen anyone who loves it. I'm sure there are a few, but I don't think it's anywhere near 50/50.
> 
> I personally hate it. But mainly because TiVo made some bad choices that hinder usability. I think it looks cool, but that's about it. It's horrible to actually try and use.


100% disagree. I think it is easier to use than the old interface and much more consistent. I was never a huge fan of the old interface and preferred the directv interface for years.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Two horizontal strips. Cartoonishly large prediction bar.


I'm assuming the so-called "prediction bar" will play a role in TiVo's revenues, over-weighting and slipping-in paid promoted content.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Charles R said:


> Regarding the interface it looks more "modern" and some things are easier and some things are harder to accomplish.


I admit I haven't used it except at the Tivo party thing on the weekend quite a while ago.

But can you explain WHAT specifically is easier? and how it is, compared to the old way for example?

(Like I've said elsewhere, IF I could switch back WITHOUT losing programs, I would absolutely 100% give it a "fair shake" of a few weeks at least.. But since I can't, I'll not willingly upgrade until they force it on me. I don't want to search with my voice. I do it once in a while on AppleTV, but it's still not THAT much of a benefit there.)

I mostly want a Tivo to be a "somewhat smarter VCR, including streaming options". The addition of streaming and such was even before I used streaming much, so I DO have streaming providers set up.. mostly so I can switch to a DIFFERENT box to actually watch Hulu on for example.. just because Hulu takes so long to start up. If I had Hulu or Comcast On Demand _content_ WITH the Tivo UI (even accepting streaming/cable-on-demand lag), it'd be great.. but that's not what we have.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Two horizontal strips. Cartoonishly large prediction bar.


I just don't "get" the prediction bar. Are the predictions so good at reading my mind that the bar replaces the "My Shows" listing?

It sounds like a fun parlor trick and icing on the cake--but it's not the cake, is it?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> 100% disagree. I think it is easier to use than the old interface and much more consistent. I was never a huge fan of the old interface and preferred the directv interface for years.


How is it more consistent? In the old UI you went up/down to select something and left/right to navigate between screens. 100% consistent. In the new UI you have go all 4 directions to select things and use sekect/back to navigate between screens. And there are inconstancies in how even that works. In most screens you use that scrolling text menu at the top to select a category, then go up/down to select an option, but not all. On some screens they use the left/right menu to contain options. Some even have logos/graphics on them that make them even more inconsistent. It's actually this specific inconsistency that bugs me the most about Hydra. If they had been a bit more consistent in their use of these controls it would be a lot better.

Not to say the old UI is perfect. It took them almost a decade to actually convert all the screens, and even when they finally did the last few bits seem rushed and slapped together. And I hate the way they consolidated a lot of the options into fewer menus. It feels cluttered now. But that was a recent update too, and likely decided upon by the same people who designed Hydra.


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## k2ue (May 9, 2002)

I'm done with Hydra -- both of my TiVos are reverted, and if Hydra is forced they will go cold.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

I find it really damning that the best response to the question of there being any redeeming quality is some people think it looks pretty. For the most part, everyone has that first reaction, looks pretty. But then when trying to use it they find it wanting for one reason or another. Another way of phrasing the question would be "is there any compelling reason to install Hydra?". Are there folders, that have been asked for for years? Nope. Is there ANY new functionality AT ALL? Well, you can talk to your remote!...at the cost of a distressingly long list of features that are lost and apparently never to return, and an even longer list of bugs that might be fixed "sometime in February" (clearly, the problem there is we failed to ask what year).

I know Rovi isn't listening, but when the best thing you can say about Hydra is "a handful of people on tcf don't mind it!", the pooch has been royally screwed. When you hold recordings hostage to force people to accept it, and then people STILL say "forget it, I'll take the hit", the pooch has been royally screwed. When the plan for stage 2 is to change the looks instead of addressing the bugs...you guessed it. Pooch. Royally.


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## joecom (Sep 10, 2014)

Everyone can adapt to the new UI. Things can be polished as we go and feedback is heard. As a developer myself, sometimes you look at something for so long that you visually miss marks that others will pick up on.

What is unacceptable is the quality of the release. Riddled with bugs, slow, constantly having to sit and wait for it to catch up, or restart due to lock up. That is the part that is unacceptable and what I am having a hard time understanding why it hasn't been fixed yet. Did no one use Hydra before releasing and experience these issues? Especially on the Mini. 

What I am curious to know is some people have zero problems while others are struggling like myself. I'm using a Roamio with 4 minis. I wonder if the Roamio doesn't have enough power but those on the Bolt do?


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

A couple little things were important to me. The LIVE GUIDE and the ability to display the clock on more than recordings. All(most) cable boxes have the time on them. Thats how you know your box is activated. When I used Hydra and did sps9s the time only showed on recordings. I dont know about other cheat codes-- the 30 sec skip is more of a "slide forward". I honestly feel the UI just prior to Hydra was excellent. Maybe a little more color diversity was needed.


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## k2ue (May 9, 2002)

mattyro7878 said:


> I honestly feel the UI just prior to Hydra was excellent. Maybe a little more color diversity was needed.


Exactly, Hydra was a solution to a non-existent problem.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

mattyro7878 said:


> the 30 sec skip is more of a "slide forward"


Sounds like your box isn't properly configured for the Skip, as opposed to Slip.

See: S-P-S-30-S 30-second skip removed from Bolt?

(And Hydra isn't to blame.)


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

aristoBrat said:


> From what I've read, it's a clean start. It's all of the TiVo code rewritten in a way that gives them a runway to develop the platform without running into whatever the constraints with previous code base were.


I'm pinning my hopes on this as the "glass half full" perspective, though somebody should still be in trouble for the bugs and instability issues (distinct from features left on the cutting room floor). One good example for your view was later posted by @mrizzo80:


mrizzo80 said:


> I like how the interface is in a single container now. No more cycling between the home screen container and the video window container. I would always get audio dropouts going in either direction in the HDUI, which was a small but annoying issue.


Hydra does seem to have eliminated the video and audio dropouts associated with Video Window transitions, something they've been unable to do for gen3/Encore.

User profiles are just around the corner.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

krkaufman said:


> Hydra does seem to have eliminated the video and audio dropouts associated with Video Window transitions, something they've been unable to do for gen3/Encore.


I wonder why they decided to change the audio. Used to be when you killed the video window in any menu, the box went to PCM and sound effects returned. Now it's just silence. Except for a restart, PCM doesn't happen once DD is used. Then again, they did add that great kettle drum sound when you make a mistake.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> User profiles are just around the corner.


You've always been so cute. 

And are user profiles even needed now--can't the prediction bar simply predict what you want?


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> You've always been so cute.
> 
> And are user profiles even needed now--can't the prediction bar simply predict what you want?


Yes, and no. Tivo still doesn't know who is handling the remote. If there is only one user/Tivo, user profiles are not needed, otherwise the prediction bar is terrible.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

reneg said:


> Yes, and no. Tivo still doesn't know who is handling the remote. If there is only one user/Tivo, user profiles are not needed, otherwise the prediction bar is terrible.


Yep--(unexpressed) sarcasm.


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## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

Tivo_Ted thinks that the next major Hydra update is going to tilt the scale in favor of Gen 4. I'd be surprised to see that happen.

The DVR business is being treated more and more like a liability since the merger. Tivo's been in the news quite a bit lately but it's all been about software partnerships or patents. It's been awhile since I've seen the words "TiVo" and "DVR" in the same article.


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## pmrowley (Apr 4, 2002)

My wife despises it. The great, intuitive guide they had is gone, replaced with the same damn grid everyone has been using since the '90s. The font is ugly, and things just don't flow like they used to. I should have researched it further; if I had known that rolling back would wipe my box, I would never have gone to the new interface. Tivo completely blew 14 years of WAF out the window with this new interface. I may have to go grab a Mini, just so we can have the old interface with this full Roamio.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

mrsean said:


> Tivo_Ted thinks that the next major Hydra update is going to tilt the scale in favor of Gen 4. I'd be surprised to see that happen.


Ha. I'd also be shocked. I've got popcorn ready for the impending Home screen discussion.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

pmrowley said:


> I may have to go grab a Mini, just so we can have the old interface with this full Roamio.


Sorry, any Mini using a Hydra host will upgrade to Hydra.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

pmrowley said:


> I may have to go grab a Mini, just so we can have the old interface with this full Roamio.


What @JoeKustra said. A Mini follows the version of its host DVR.

Another TiVo DVR to which to transfer your shows directly, or temporarily offloading your programs to a PC and restoring using PyTivo after rollback to gen3/Encore are the only options -- short of biting the bullet and accepting loss of all recordings and settings.

Note that copy-protected content would limit the transfer possibilities for saving recordings; and, on the other side of the coin, KMTTG can be used to save system settings for post-rollback restore.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

The one redeeming feature I see is that Hydra is the future and new features will go there first and maybe only there. Auto-Skip is an example where the auto-skip IFTTT feature was only for Hydra.

I'll hold off until 1) the feature disparity is more pronounced and 2) by then the Hydra bugs will be more worked out.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

pmrowley said:


> if I had known that rolling back would wipe my box, I would never have gone to the new interface.





pmrowley said:


> Wish I could roll back, but I have tons of copy-protected recordings.


Ow.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm not planning on upgrading anytime soon. The Old UI is so perfect that I can't imagine why they would want to change it. It's lightning fast on my Roamio OTA and does everything I need plus some. I guess I could try it, there's no downside to trying, since I am running lean right now (no recordings stored most of the time), but it doesn't sound like it's worth the hassle.


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

pmrowley said:


> if I had known that rolling back would wipe my box, I would never have gone to the new interface


Right before you upgraded, wasn't there was a huge message telling you "ROLLING BACK WILL WIPE YOUR BOX!!! ARE YOU REALLY REALLY REALLY SURE?"


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Lurker1 said:


> Right before you upgraded, wasn't there was a huge message telling you "ROLLING BACK WILL WIPE YOUR BOX!!! ARE YOU REALLY REALLY REALLY SURE?"


Not to my knowledge, but perhaps that's changed? I know the warning is part of the 'downgrade' process, but I can't say with certainty that it's part of the 'upgrade' process. What I can say is I don't believe enough advance warning was given, but I'm talking about what, half a year ago now? It's possible it changed since then or my memory is faulty. If it's functioning correctly, there initially wasn't even really a rollback process in place, but one was quickly cobbled together when the pitchforks and torches started arriving, so there wouldn't have been a warning as part of the very early upgrades.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

stile99 said:


> If it's functioning correctly, there initially wasn't even really a rollback process in place, but one was quickly cobbled together when the pitchforks and torches started arriving, so there wouldn't have been a warning as part of the very early upgrades.


The upgrades were allowed on 10/28/17 and the rollback procedure was published on 11/2/17. Both threads have ample warnings.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> The upgrades were allowed on 10/28/17 and the rollback procedure was published on 11/2/17. Both threads have ample warnings.


My apologies, I thought Lurker1 meant displayed on the screen as part of the process.


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

stile99 said:


> My apologies, I thought Lurker1 meant displayed on the screen as part of the process.


I did. But I suppose the onscreen warnings could have been added later for the general rollout. If you requested the early release, greater risks should have been expected.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Lurker1 said:


> I did. But I suppose the onscreen warnings could have been added later for the general rollout. If you requested the early release, greater risks should have been expected.


Very true. When one lives on the cutting edge, one must expect there to be wounds from time to time. Comes with the territory. That said, while it might not have been there in that brief time between initial install and when the rollback option was given, at no time has the uninstall NOT come with huge warnings regarding what is happening, and as noted, there sure is plenty of warning NOW.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

This whole thing is yet another reminder as to why any DVR should not be turned into a garbage dump. I've been guilty of hoarding junk on my DVR from time to time when my backlog got out of control, especially back when I had a TiVo on cable where I had a multi-year-long backlog problem, but I've gotten more disciplined, and now I am running very lean. Right now I have two shows on my TiVo, and they only a few hours old. My average show now only stays on there a few days before being watched or deleted. Some people may still be catching up from the post-PyeongChang backlog that inevitably happens after every Olympic games, but in general, this is a good reminder to clean up your act if your DVR is a landfill. These things aren't reliable storage, they're convenience devices, and hard drives can go at any time, etc. At least with TiVo you own the thing, so that's an advantage over a DirecTV or cable DVR where you have to periodically turn the box in if you move or they make upgrades to the system that requires new equipment.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

k2ue said:


> Exactly, Hydra was a solution to a non-existent problem.


I disagree. Sales are their problem, and its purpose is to increase sales, not to offer new services to those who already bought in. We offer little marginal revenue unless upgrading.

Now, it would be cool it it did all that plus some. But, we are not the target audience.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

jrtroo said:


> I disagree. Sales are their problem, and its purpose is to increase sales, not to offer new services to those who already bought in. We offer little marginal revenue unless upgrading.
> 
> Now, it would be cool it it did all that plus some. But, we are not the target audience.


it's a delicate balancing act. churn of existing customers is much more costly when compared with the cost of attracting new ones, and word of mouth from existing users goes a long way to drawing in new customers.

it's change that's market and competitor driven, and i don't see where tivo really had any choice, but it doesn't mean i need it, like it, or that it adds any value for me. if the old works better, i'll keep using it until it doesn't.


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

mattack said:


> I admit I haven't used it except at the Tivo party thing on the weekend quite a while ago.
> 
> But can you explain WHAT specifically is easier? and how it is, compared to the old way for example?
> 
> ...


The only redeeming value of Hydra right now IS the Vox remote! ONLY the Vox remote search goes through a whole database of TV shows and movies while the typing shirt search only displays currently available TV shows and movies. That's a big thing for me ... being able to have bookmarks and onepasses for items not currently available are a very valuable addition. Hopefully that change will be made for the typing search as well, but right now it's not there.
I also dislike the My Shows screen: it looks very sloppy with the recording red dots after the program name and not aligned to the left of the name.


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

stile99 said:


> I find it really damning that the best response to the question of there being any redeeming quality is some people think it looks pretty. For the most part, everyone has that first reaction, looks pretty. But then when trying to use it they find it wanting for one reason or another. Another way of phrasing the question would be "is there any compelling reason to install Hydra?". Are there folders, that have been asked for for years? Nope. Is there ANY new functionality AT ALL? Well, you can talk to your remote!...at the cost of a distressingly long list of features that are lost and apparently never to return, and an even longer list of bugs that might be fixed "sometime in February" (clearly, the problem there is we failed to ask what year).
> 
> I know Rovi isn't listening, but when the best thing you can say about Hydra is "a handful of people on tcf don't mind it!", the pooch has been royally screwed. When you hold recordings hostage to force people to accept it, and then people STILL say "forget it, I'll take the hit", the pooch has been royally screwed. When the plan for stage 2 is to change the looks instead of addressing the bugs...you guessed it. Pooch. Royally.


I'm glad you mentioned the folders that we all asked for years. Dish Network has it and it works beautifully. Why does Tivo refuse to do that?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Furmaniac said:


> I'm glad you mentioned the folders that we all asked for years. Dish Network has it and it works beautifully. Why does Tivo refuse to do that?


I know that deciding what features to include in a release, and getting them done technologically, can be difficult. But I just don't "get it" when core, desired, successful features get dropped. E.g. folder play, PC-TiVo box transfers (and this latter especially where TiVo wants users to use the box as their entertainment center).


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Just an editorial observation:

Everyone seems to focus on Hydra as a successor to Encore (the previous UI version). It isn't really. It is designed for the forthcoming all IP era of video distribution. Over the next 5 to 10 years the traditional method of delivery for TV (QAM modulated data over coaxial) will be replaced with all IP delivery over your broadband connection (whatever that may be - coax, fiber or wireless). This will require all new STBs and headend equipment. Those set top boxes will be more like computers than the older boxes, selecting and decoding streams of data based on IP address and port number. There are several companies trying to build the OS and UI suite to run on those boxes. The furthest along is Comcast's X1 platform, followed by Altice's Altice One and then TiVo's Hydra. Just like the first two are testing and refining the software with current users, so TiVo has released Hydra to us.

Hydra is TiVo's required next step to keep their MSO business alive. We are helping them refine it.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Diana Collins said:


> Hydra is TiVo's required next step to keep their MSO business alive. We are helping them refine it.


We are so nice. 

It would be easier if TiVo would send out updates more frequently. Any more frequently.


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

User-generated folders for shows under My Shows makes so much sense. They have them for wishlists so why not have them for all shows? it's a shame that dish network has them, PCS have folders, smartphones have folders ... but TiVo has no folders to put programs in. 
You would think that they would want to have have every single feature that their competition has. The technicians at Dish Network seem to be the best in the industry. They do pay TiVo a $5 monthly fee per customer for the use of the Dish Pass, which is their version of the Wishlist. I doubt that Dish owns a patent on the idea of folders, but if they do, TiVo should make a deal and pay them a fee. I really miss the folders that I had ... such as comedies, sports, documentaries, game shows, news programs, new sitcoms, retro sitcoms, etc.


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## k2ue (May 9, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> Just an editorial observation:
> 
> Hydra is TiVo's required next step to keep their MSO business alive. We are helping them refine it.


So we should wiggle our noses like Guinea Pigs? I want a DVR that works with streaming now, i.e. can record a requested streamed program or series -- if Hydra did that THEN it might be worth the needless disruption.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

Diana Collins said:


> Just an editorial observation:
> 
> Everyone seems to focus on Hydra as a successor to Encore (the previous UI version). It isn't really. It is designed for the forthcoming all IP era of video distribution. Over the next 5 to 10 years the traditional method of delivery for TV (QAM modulated data over coaxial) will be replaced with all IP delivery over your broadband connection (whatever that may be - coax, fiber or wireless). This will require all new STBs and headend equipment. Those set top boxes will be more like computers than the older boxes, selecting and decoding streams of data based on IP address and port number. There are several companies trying to build the OS and UI suite to run on those boxes. The furthest along is Comcast's X1 platform, followed by Altice's Altice One and then TiVo's Hydra. Just like the first two are testing and refining the software with current users, so TiVo has released Hydra to us.
> 
> Hydra is TiVo's required next step to keep their MSO business alive. We are helping them refine it.


Interesting thoughts...perhaps you have some "in"sights that would support your hypothesis that Hydra is, in fact, going to be IPTV capable which would be probably good, even great news, for Tivo users. This thinking seems to be based on the thought that current Tivo hardware with the Hydra software would be capable of downloading and decrypting the new IPTV standard. Or is it likely that the Hydra software would be used on a new generation of Tivo hardware capable of using IPTV as a source? Other thoughts, does the current legislation which forced cable cards on the ISP's also extend to allowing customer owned equipment like Tivos to be used with IPTV services, if not, then what is the likelyhood of getting additional legislation to allow such use by customers with their own equipment. If the ISP model of allowing the use of customer owned equipment to do the job, is it likely that this will be similar to the Comcast/Roku type setup where the Roku can be used to tune the channels, but the cost/price will be included by the piece, giving little advantage to buying your own equipment and assuming all support is left to the consumer?
The issue of current Tivo retail customers being used as unacknowledged beta testers, I am ignoring, as this seems to be the current standard anyway.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

IMHO all new upgrades will be in the Hydra UI, and only small bug fixes will come to the old UI. I don't think we will see any new features in the old UI but may in the Hydra. I had problems with using the Hydra at first, but now after using it for over 5 months and getting the Hydra options set up as I like things I am OK with this UI.


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## Anotherpyr (May 6, 2015)

There are cracks in the old UI on the streaming side. Most likely caused by providers producing the app instead of TiVo. When watching Netflix or Amazon video I find the buttons invoking unexpected behaviors. That’s something that should be universal through tall apps and the DVR content itself. Hopefully the final hydra ui will iron this out. In the meantime there are better streaming boxes available. The first strike in the old ui is the app load time.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Anotherpyr said:


> There are cracks in the old UI on the streaming side. Most likely caused by providers producing the app instead of TiVo. When watching Netflix or Amazon video *I find the buttons invoking unexpected behaviors. That's something that should be universal through tall apps and the DVR content itself. *Hopefully the final hydra ui will iron this out. In the meantime there are better streaming boxes available. The first strike in the old ui is the app load time.


I, too, have been surprised that there's not more of a mandatory "style sheet" for apps on TiVo.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

lessd said:


> I had problems with using the Hydra at first, *but now after using it for over 5 months* and getting the Hydra options set up as I like things I am OK with this UI.


A ringing endorsement . . . .


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

lessd said:


> I had problems ... at first, but now after using it for over 5 months ... I am OK with this.


The same could be said of any major injury or disability.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

fcfc2 said:


> Interesting thoughts...perhaps you have some "in"sights that would support your hypothesis that Hydra is, in fact, going to be IPTV capable which would be probably good, even great news, for Tivo users. This thinking seems to be based on the thought that current Tivo hardware with the Hydra software would be capable of downloading and decrypting the new IPTV standard. Or is it likely that the Hydra software would be used on a new generation of Tivo hardware capable of using IPTV as a source? Other thoughts, does the current legislation which forced cable cards on the ISP's also extend to allowing customer owned equipment like Tivos to be used with IPTV services, if not, then what is the likelyhood of getting additional legislation to allow such use by customers with their own equipment. If the ISP model of allowing the use of customer owned equipment to do the job, is it likely that this will be similar to the Comcast/Roku type setup where the Roku can be used to tune the channels, but the cost/price will be included by the piece, giving little advantage to buying your own equipment and assuming all support is left to the consumer?
> The issue of current Tivo retail customers being used as unacknowledged beta testers, I am ignoring, as this seems to be the current standard anyway.


Hydra is definitely designed to support IPTV, but that doesn't mean that retail TiVos will survive the end of cablecards. There will be no "IPTV Standard" - each provider will have their own authentication stack, just as Netflix and Amazon do today. TiVo hopes Hydra will be the UI used on the IP boxes of the systems that use TiVos now, and hopefully others as well. This is all for the company's benefit and why Rovi acquired TiVo. None of this does much for retail customers.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

imho, the transition to iptv will breathe new life into ota, even if it's only for a short time. like vod before it, iptv from the cable companies is simply not ready for prime time, and probably won't be for years to come.


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## johnfasc (Dec 24, 2014)

lessd said:


> IMHO all new upgrades will be in the Hydra UI, and only small bug fixes will come to the old UI. I don't think we will see any new features in the old UI but may in the Hydra. I had problems with using the Hydra at first, but now after using it for over 5 months and getting the Hydra options set up as I like things I am OK with this UI.


Agree.....Wow, after reading through these responses I am glad I am 'just a TiVo user'. I turn on the TiVo, search My Shows, go live, play music or see what's coming tonight. I don't mind waiting 4 seconds for an app to load, don't like the guide as much as the live guide but it's certainly not a deal breaker. I can live with one extra button press to watch a show (it's one second) and I never have guide problems or restarts or half the other bs, probably because I use my TiVo out of the box with no additional tv or recording devices. I don't need 5 Tivos intertwined with mini's and 4 gig hard drives. I use a roamio ota with no cable and love it! And it just works! And as far as the new Hydra... It's different but whenever something new comes out most people just don't like change, I do because it keeps me learning and my mind working. Just saying.....


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> It would be easier if TiVo would send out updates more frequently. Any more frequently.


I thought Ted had mentioned that they were going to be releasing updates for Hydra more frequently but I don't think we've seen that happen.

Scott


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Anotherpyr said:


> When watching Netflix or Amazon video I find the buttons invoking unexpected behaviors. That's something that should be universal through tall apps and the DVR content itself.


Don't forget the short apps! 

I do agree that it would be nice if the apps behaved the same as the TiVo interface but probably too much to expect given the size of the market. I'm just glad the apps are there.

Scott


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Lurker1 said:


> The same could be said of any major injury or disability.


I don't think any major injury or disability will have any updates, I not talking about learning to live with hydra, I am saying a year (or less) from now most likely the Hydra UI will have been upgraded with new features, the old UI, not much of a chance.


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

lessd said:


> I don't think any major injury or disability will have any updates, I not talking about learning to live with hydra, I am saying a year (or less) from now most likely the Hydra UI will have been upgraded with new features, the old UI, not much of a chance.


Yes, it was meant as a joke. When it comes to TiVo, new features always come with new bugs. So some of us would prefer to forego any new features, just get all the old bugs fixed and call it a day.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Encore has been working fine as an IPTV interface overseas, so I don't think it's an explicit purpose. The UI was already extended enough to not necessarily care what the video source is.

It's more about having a clean(er) slate for hardware portability (including mobile), more modern and extendable code, AND just being more all-around modern-looking. Tivo has some code that's 2 decades old. Keeping it all duct-taped together had added up in many ways. More expensive, slower development, etc.

Even though it was an overdue necessity, none of that means Hydra isn't problematic in its current state. I still recommend waiting at least a year for them to iron out the bugs and to see if they finally start listening regarding basic usability problems.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

I honestly don't believe people care about the clean slate. As reported many times, the vast majority like it at first, then come to dislike it not because they decided it didn't look pretty as they first thought, but because they discovered the pretty exterior was hiding an ugly interior. Had they taken the time needed, or at least shown any interest in correcting the mistake and doing so now, I really think half the discussions on Hydra wouldn't even be happening. But they are and will continue to do so not because they rebuilt it, but because they rebuilt it wrong.

Imagine you decide to rebuild a house. It's old, out of code, and knocking it down and rebuilding will be cheaper than constantly maintaining it. The construction company tells you a month, so you go stay with relatives in the meantime. When you return, it's beautiful! Then you walk in. You notice the builders "forgot" to include a bathroom. "Hey, you can just go when you're at work, you'll get used to it!". There's no floor in the master bedroom, just a 10-foot drop into the basement. "You just don't like change!" The kitchen has no oven. "We don't see what the fuss is about, we never use ours anyway, so you don't need one either!".

Rebuilding from the ground up isn't the problem.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

stile99 said:


> You notice the builders "forgot" to include a bathroom. "Hey, you can just go when you're at work, you'll get used to it!". There's no floor in the master bedroom, just a 10-foot drop into the basement. "You just don't like change!" The kitchen has no oven. "We don't see what the fuss is about, we never use ours anyway, so you don't need one either!".


LOLed for real. TCF in a nutshell.

Yeah, it's not the customers job to care about the clean slate. All we need to know is that it's not great in its v1.0 form. What I was also kind of perturbed by was that Tivo didn't even warn anybody about the missing features, either. Zatz did us a solid by doing it for them. How many extra ticked off people would there be if we didn't know any better?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> Hydra is definitely designed to support IPTV, but that doesn't mean that retail TiVos will survive the end of cablecards. There will be no "IPTV Standard" - each provider will have their own authentication stack, just as Netflix and Amazon do today. TiVo hopes Hydra will be the UI used on the IP boxes of the systems that use TiVos now, and hopefully others as well. This is all for the company's benefit and why Rovi acquired TiVo. None of this does much for retail customers.


IPTV is a transport, the UI should be irrrelevant. Agree that Hydra is primarily about MSO use, it's obvious to me by now that Rovi doesn't give a damn about retail customers.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

The UI is irrelevant technically, but the providers all want to control it. The smaller companies that already license TiVo software (domestically and internationally) are looking for both an updated product and one that will allow them to move to IP delivery. As they shop around, TiVo wants to be in the running, hence we have Hydra.

The older UI is like Windows 7, Hydra is like Windows 10. It isn't necessarily better, just more modern looking.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

k2ue said:


> So we should wiggle our noses like Guinea Pigs? I want a DVR that works with streaming now, i.e. can record a requested streamed program or series -- if Hydra did that THEN it might be worth the needless disruption.


The fact of the matter is that TiVo loses money hand over fist on people like us. The only reason they put up with us is the guinea pig factor.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> Hydra is definitely designed to support IPTV, but that doesn't mean that retail TiVos will survive the end of cablecards.


Comcast has slowed way down on the MPEG-4 and eventual IPTV transitions, MPEG-4 being a relative cakewalk compared to a fully bown IPTV conversion. They will be the first, as they have the resources to do it. Many small companies will be probably be using QAM until the end of cable TV.

Speaking of the end of cable TV, few of these discussions account for the fact that cord cutting is accelerating, and the pay tv market isn't going to look like it does today in 5-10 years. There is no way that 400 channel bundles can survive much longer. The channels that get picked up by vMVPDs will stick around, and the ones that don't probably won't. The overall linear TV viewership is going way down, and the current ecosystem is much too large and much too expensive. Streaming and DVR in the cloud is going to become the norm.

Due to cord cutting, I think the best life left for traditional DVRs is OTA, as OTA has a fairly bright future for the next decade, whether or not ATSC 3.0 actually happens.



slowbiscuit said:


> IPTV is a transport, the UI should be irrrelevant. Agree that Hydra is primarily about MSO use, it's obvious to me by now that Rovi doesn't give a damn about retail customers.


Agreed. Any UI can be used with any delivery mechanism, provided the right back end.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> What I was also kind of perturbed by was that Tivo didn't even warn anybody about the missing features, either. Zatz did us a solid by doing it for them. How many extra ticked off people would there be if we didn't know any better?


My wife is still pissed I subjected her to Hydra for a month or two (and lost all recordings going back).

As BigJim suggested, the IPTV discussion earlier in the thread is a red herring. It's a marketing bullet point to pitch potential MSOs and has no relevance to us retail customers. TiVo already did/does IPTV. Hydra is a cleaner, more extensible, hot swappable codebase with a fresher interface they thought could more easily port to different sorts of experiences - like small screen touch-based devices. However, they came up with the visuals before they really dug into the usability combined with understaffed and/or improperly managed teams (an opinion from my limited vantage point), exacerbated by the mid-project emergency guide retrofit and an alleged internal struggle that supposedly led to Margret's departure ... and here we are.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

davezatz said:


> Hydra is a cleaner, more extensible, hot swappable codebase *with a fresher interface they thought could more easily port to different sorts of experiences - like small screen touch-based devices. However, they came up with the visuals before they really dug into the usability* combined with understaffed and/or improperly managed teams (an opinion from my limited vantage point), exacerbated by the mid-project emergency guide retrofit and an alleged internal struggle that supposedly led to Margret's departure ... and here we are.


And that worked out well for Microsoft Windows 8 Metro, didn't it.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

Diana Collins said:


> The UI is irrelevant technically, but the providers all want to control it. The smaller companies that already license TiVo software (domestically and internationally) are looking for both an updated product and one that will allow them to move to IP delivery. As they shop around, TiVo wants to be in the running, hence we have Hydra.
> 
> The older UI is like Windows 7, Hydra is like Windows 10. It isn't necessarily better, just more modern looking.


First, before I get off topic below, I think that the wheels are spinning at Tivo, Inc Dev. I think they realize that they got A LOT of little and not so little things to fix. Ted has been away for a month now and he did say that there would be a (real?) update with some new goodies for Both platforms (in Jan or Feb...I said March). I do not think that Anything embarrasses them (mind you that I think Ted has been Great), but maybe the initial release of Hydra (and even if they did an update or two, the initial release is much the same, except for disastrous fixes they have made) made them think and test(?) a bit more and maybe want to convince more of us to go to Hydra.

Now I do like the 2nd comment (for once...the first one I am too lazy to understand, as many of the things you talk about Diana)! Yes, if you can believe it (LOL), I am still on W7Pro on my fast enough for me Desktop (I5, 6th gen) with my 24" monitor and real keyboard and real speakers. I was resistant to many versions of windows, being an OLD IT dog for many many years. W10 wants to update when IT FEELS like it. I DO NOT LIKE THAT! Also my Librarys do not convert! LAZY ME! I did try it when it came out, but of course I have a full backup of C always, and put 7 right back in. Would you expect anything else from me???  There is one thing I noticed in W10 that I liked. My USB hard drives go to sleep a lot on W7, but they did not on W10. Always thought that was a driver problem, but Ho Ho Ho, a Windows problem. Oh Boy, way off topic. Sorry guys!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Am I some weirdo in that I actually LIKE Windows 10 for the most part? I find it equally as good as Mac OS, which is a huge compliment, as I was a Mac fan for years until I recently switched back to build my own desktop, and I'm quite happy with Windows 10.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

I like Windows 10....but then, I like Hydra too.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Windows 10 is fine once you clean up the tiles off the start menu. Just like 8.1 was perfectly functional once you switched to the normal start menu.

Then again, neither version removed the ability to save files to the hard drive or use a printer, either. Remove these basic functions and see what the reaction is.


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## tethior (Jul 27, 2004)

Reading through this thread I appreciate all the points made. While I hate being the 'beta tester' for a company Microsoft has made that the industry standard for years. Being an IT guy for 20+ years I understand the need to get off old technology stacks and legacy code that limits your future (or increases your costs). All that said - there needs to be a mechanism through which we (the users) can provide feedback. Reading through this thread I am left wondering - HOW do we inform the Great and Powerful TIVO of our CONSTRUCTIVE feedback? While I am not happy with the Hydra update (Hail Hydra) for many reasons I will accept it as the future and work to make that future as good (for my use) as I can.

The one UI change that I must protest loudest is the lack of ability to ungroup the shows in my recordings. I can sort by date - but I dont know what the oldest item in my queue is. My typical use is to look for the oldest show in my queue. I do not usually binge watch a show, so grouping by shows less helpful for me.

A secondary issue is that the screen usage. I dont like "strips", but when I turned them off all I have is a blank space across the horizontal top of my screen. My content is now in these multiple excel like columns starting 1/2 ways down the screen. The actual usable content for me is now in less than 1/6 of my screen. My opinion - collapse the empty space.

So how do I share this information with Tivo. I have searched their site and found no mechanism and do not see any references to such in this thread or forum. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

tethior said:


> So how do I share this information with Tivo. I have searched their site and found no mechanism and do not see any references to such in this thread or forum. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


Try here -> http://advisors.tivo.com/wix/5/p2272893819.aspx


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> Try here -> http://advisors.tivo.com/wix/5/p2272893819.aspx




They used to look at those, that I know for sure. Remember when it gave you all those sick choices that people asked for not knowing Many (most, all) were impossible? Until they got rid of all that crap...LOL.

They cannot even release a new Hydra with more bug fixes...

No RC29 on my XL4 yet, what about you Joe? Since it has been said that Skip has not been activated for at least a copied recording...


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

samccfl99 said:


> No RC29 on my XL4 yet, what about you Joe?


Yes, -> 20.7.4.RC29


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> I like Windows 10....but then, I like Hydra too.


Why do you like Hydra? What is the advantage? I do not like trying to type numbers on my remote in the dark.
I have been using it about 3 weeks now and it does not seem to get any better for me. What can it do that the old UI did not do as well or better?


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

johnd01 said:


> Why do you like Hydra? What is the advantage? I do not like trying to type numbers on my remote in the dark.
> I have been using it about 3 weeks now and it does not seem to get any better for me. What can it do that the old UI did not do as well or better?


Don't type in numbers, slide and click on the tiles, works in total darkness and can be very fast. Typing in numbers is like working with a 10yr old cable box.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

johnd01 said:


> Why do you like Hydra? What is the advantage? I do not like trying to type numbers on my remote in the dark.
> I have been using it about 3 weeks now and it does not seem to get any better for me. What can it do that the old UI did not do as well or better?


As I said earlier...it doesn't have to be more capable or "do" anything different to be preferred. Windows 7 and Windows 10 "do" the same things, the difference being mostly in UI presentation and the overall UX paradigm. Yet some people hate Windows 10 and are sticking with Windows 7 as long as possible. There are still LOTS of people on Windows XP. Paradigm shifts are hard...people resist big changes. Just look at the depth of passion here about an alternative UI that is entirely optional.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

from what i'm reading, it's a little more than that - it's not only that it's different, it's less convenient and intuitive - that's not the same.

with windows upgrades comes new features, stronger security, and improvements, like 'em or not.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Well, all I can say is that we have used TiVo series 1, series 2, DirecTivos, DirecTV DVRs, Dish Network DVRs, and Windows Media Center, and I think they ALL intuitive once you wrap your head around the paradigm. Hydra is based around a visual paradigm that is similar to Hulu and several other services. It is also used by Comcast X1 and most other emerging UIs. Like Windows 8 and 10, Hydra is based on selecting content by image, not text listing. Windows 10 gave the users the option to turn off the graphics only after users pushed back. TiVo has dealt with this by continuing to support the older UI. If you don't lik Hydra, don't use it.

I just don't get the big issue. Some people like Hydra, some don't. That's life. Use whichever UI you prefer.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Windows Media Center? I had that for a month or so, and then I got another TiVo. MCE is horrendous. The UI makes absolutely no sense, it's horribly unreliable, misses recordings, crashes, etc, etc. It's not surprising that they eventually got rid of it, even though the concept of the HTPC was great.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Then there was Nero Liquid TV. Remember that? That was a failure from day one with no CableCard support.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> Well, all I can say is that we have used TiVo series 1, series 2, DirecTivos, DirecTV DVRs, Dish Network DVRs, and Windows Media Center, and I think they ALL intuitive once you wrap your head around the paradigm. Hydra is based around a visual paradigm that is similar to Hulu and several other services. It is also used by Comcast X1 and most other emerging UIs. Like Windows 8 and 10, Hydra is based on selecting content by image, not text listing. Windows 10 gave the users the option to turn off the graphics only after users pushed back. TiVo has dealt with this by continuing to support the older UI. If you don't lik Hydra, don't use it.
> 
> I just don't get the big issue. Some people like Hydra, some don't. That's life. Use whichever UI you prefer.


Until they stop investing in the text based one that can convey more information.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

NorthAlabama said:


> from what i'm reading, it's a little more than that - it's not only that it's different, it's less convenient and intuitive - that's not the same.


Some people just refuse to give up the narrative that it isn't the loss of functionality, it's just a matter of looking different. They can keep repeating it, but it'll keep being false.


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> As I said earlier...it doesn't have to be more capable or "do" anything different to be preferred. Windows 7 and Windows 10 "do" the same things, the difference being mostly in UI presentation and the overall UX paradigm. Yet some people hate Windows 10 and are sticking with Windows 7 as long as possible. There are still LOTS of people on Windows XP. Paradigm shifts are hard...people resist big changes. Just look at the depth of passion here about an alternative UI that is entirely optional.


I like upgrading early, but if the upgrade does not have a perceived advantage, I would rather not learn a new system. There seems to be an investment in predicting what shows I want to watch at the cost of having to select "My shows". Scroll down to "All Shows", then scroll down the list to the show I want. On a 16TB system, it is not a trivial matter. The old system was Tivo button twice to get to the last show selected. Then a select would continue the show. I have not found any way with the new system.
I do not see a way to sort by episode or to binge a season. 
It does seem snappier.


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## DVRanger (Nov 28, 2017)

I personally like HYDRA a lot better than the old TIVO interface. Not that its more functional, I just like the more engaging graphical presentation. Functionality wise its about the same, maybe regressed a little, but I see this being a worthwhile sacrifice for the much more visual presentation.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

i'll take ease of operation over pretty any day of the week.


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## DVRanger (Nov 28, 2017)

NorthAlabama said:


> i'll take ease of operation over pretty any day of the week.


I like a little of both myself.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

NorthAlabama said:


> i'll take ease of operation over pretty any day of the week.


I'd prefer appropriate tool for the job. A fork is very easy to operate, a forklift not so much. You would never use one for the other's job, how pretty the forklift is doesn't make eating the plate of spaghetti any easier and how easy it is to use the fork doesn't get the pallet of heavy items across the warehouse. And I most certainly won't sacrifice usability for pretty. "We're going to paint the forklift, really gussy it up, but we're taking away one of the two tines and one of the control levers, so it's going to look really cool and be easier to operate!". Nope.


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

Visual paradigm. Hieroglyphics. This is regression, not progressive change.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

David R said:


> I love TiVo. I literally got my first TiVo in late 1999 and have owned at least a dozen. I described myself as a TiVolutionary.
> 
> ...then the DVR cable boxes came. My friends asked me why I still used TiVo. It's the user interface and reliability I told them. Sure, I tried the Cox DVR - it was horrible. I always came back to TiVo.
> A week ago my Bolt+ (one of four TiVo's I own now) says that there's a new experience to upgrade to. Great! I go through the process - the system reboots, and... flashing lights of death. My $400 TiVo is now a brick.
> ...


?? On all of my TiVos running Hydra, it takes one button press of Select to have a title start playing. On two Bolts, a Mini Vox, a Roamio Basic, and a Mini v1. All start playing a show after hitting select once.

And deleting has also been reliable on every box I use with Hydra. I hit the clear button, and an episode is deleted right away. Just like it did when i used the HDUI.

I love using Hydra and have enjoyed it since the first day they made it available. I had only planned on testing it out. But liked it so much I upgraded all my TiVos that first day. I can't stand using the HDUi now. Overall the Hydra UI has been so much better in my use of it.

Of course there are still bugs with Hydra. But with how I use my TiVos, none of them are show stoppers.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Comcast has slowed way down on the MPEG-4 and eventual IPTV transitions, MPEG-4 being a relative cakewalk compared to a fully bown IPTV conversion. They will be the first, as they have the resources to do it. Many small companies will be probably be using QAM until the end of cable TV.
> 
> Speaking of the end of cable TV, few of these discussions account for the fact that cord cutting is accelerating, and the pay tv market isn't going to look like it does today in 5-10 years. There is no way that 400 channel bundles can survive much longer. The channels that get picked up by vMVPDs will stick around, and the ones that don't probably won't. The overall linear TV viewership is going way down, and the current ecosystem is much too large and much too expensive. Streaming and DVR in the cloud is going to become the norm.
> 
> ...


ATSC 3.0 is most definitely happening. The first station in the US started broadcasting in ATSC 3.0 a few weeks ago. With many more to follow over the years. The question is whether consumers will follow. And buy a large number of devices capable of receiving ATSC 3.0.

I know I plan to once they start broadcasting ATSC 3.0 here in the DC area. But I think we are still a year away in my area.


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## MMG (Dec 11, 1999)

aaronwt said:


> ATSC 3.0 is most definitely happening. The first station in the US started broadcasting in ATSC 3.0 a few weeks ago. With many more to follow over the years. The question is whether consumers will follow. And buy a large number of devices capable of receiving ATSC 3.0.
> 
> I know I plan to once they start broadcasting ATSC 3.0 here in the DC area. But I think we are still a year away in my area.


Capitol Broadcasting Launches ATSC 3.0 Television Station - ATSC

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

Downgraded today after 5 months of hating Hydra, while trying to get used to it.

For starters, if I got "here" with a right arrow I should be able to get back with a left arrow. If I click play on a title card, PLAY. Don't make be arrow down twice and click play. As far as navigation goes, it's the most frustrating I have used in a LONG time. And I cut my teeth on CPM.



wtherrell said:


> Visual paradigm. Hieroglyphics. This is regression, not progressive change.


Just wait until they "upgrade" to the light grey on white background (i.e. zero contrast) UI that seems so popular. And borderless input boxes so you get to guess where to put data and what to put there.

Present day UI designers need to be made to walk the plank.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

pldoolittle said:


> Downgraded today after 5 months of hating Hydra, while trying to get used to it.


Bad timing as the first real Hydra update (21.8.1.RC6) just rolled out today and it improves on a lot of functionality (Mini Guide is more Guide Live like) along with many major bug fixes. So Hydra essentially went from version 1.0 to 1.1 (21.7.2 -> 21.8.1).

Night and day difference on my Mini VOX. Even Netflix functionality has changed to load instantaneously on both Mini VOX and Roamio which was previously a Bolt only feature.



pldoolittle said:


> For starters, if I got "here" with a right arrow I should be able to get back with a left arrow. If I click play on a title card, PLAY. Don't make be arrow down twice and click play.


Changed in 21.8.1. Navigation now makes more sense and clicking Play on a title card now Plays.


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## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

CloudAtlas said:


> Bad timing as the first real Hydra update (21.8.1.RC6) just rolled out today and it improves on a lot of functionality (Mini Guide is more Guide Live like) along with many major bug fixes. So Hydra essentially went from version 1.0 to 1.1 (21.7.2 -> 21.8.1).
> 
> Night and day difference on my Mini VOX. Even Netflix functionality has changed to load instantaneously on both Mini VOX and Roamio which was previously a Bolt only feature.
> 
> Changed in 21.8.1. Navigation now makes more sense and clicking Play on a title card now Plays.


Does the left arrow now take you back or do you still have to use the back button?


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

CloudAtlas said:


> Bad timing as the first real Hydra update (21.8.1.RC6) just rolled out today and it improves on a lot of functionality (Mini Guide is more Guide Live like) along with many major bug fixes. So Hydra essentially went from version 1.0 to 1.1 (21.7.2 -> 21.8.1)


TiVo is it's own worst enemy. Ignoring that users in general should get notifications about major releases, any user who has contacted support to inquire about how to downgrade Hydra (as I did months ago) should absolutely have received a heads up. Did anyone? I certainly did not.

As for the upgrade, It's done now. _Maybe_ I'll re-upgrade when it gets to v2 or v3 and people here are speaking positively about it. But being an alpha tester left a bad taste in my mouth for Hydra.

As Dave mentioned, is the back arrow fixed? Have they stopped trying to sneak an upgrade in with the VOX button?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

pldoolittle said:


> TiVo is it's own worst enemy. Ignoring that users in general should get notifications about major releases, any user who has contacted support to inquire about how to downgrade Hydra (as I did months ago) should absolutely have received a heads up. Did anyone? I certainly did not.
> 
> As for the upgrade, It's done now. _Maybe_ I'll re-upgrade when it gets to v2 or v3 and people here are speaking positively about it. But being an alpha tester left a bad taste in my mouth for Hydra.
> 
> As Dave mentioned, is the back arrow fixed? Have they stopped trying to sneak an upgrade in with the VOX button?


The left arrow is not broken. Repeat that. It is a design change, not a bug.

So much for "different" not being an issue.


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> The left arrow is not broken. Repeat that. It is a design change, not a bug.


My apologies, allow me to rephrase: _Has the poorly thought through design change been rolled back?_



TonyD79 said:


> So much for "different" not being an issue.


Feel better now?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

pldoolittle said:


> My apologies, allow me to rephrase: _Has the poorly thought through design change been rolled back?_
> 
> Feel better now?


 Not really. You are still focusing on a difference. How about just using that as designed?

Missing functionality are mostly backdoor things like copies from PCs. Or the live guide (the new release is closer).

Complaining about having to use a left arrow versus back seems trivial.


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Not really. You are still focusing on a difference. How about just using that as designed?
> Missing functionality are mostly backdoor things like copies from PCs. Or the live guide (the new release is closer).
> Complaining about having to use a left arrow versus back seems trivial.


If my complaining about the functionality is trivial, of what value is is your complaining about my complaining? Less than trivial...

I don't like the new functionality. I consider it to be "broken", and I voiced that opinion here. If you don't agree, _feel free to scroll right on by._


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

pldoolittle said:


> If my complaining about the functionality is trivial, of what value is is your complaining about my complaining? Less than trivial...
> 
> I don't like the new functionality. I consider it to be "broken", and I voiced that opinion here. If you don't agree, _feel free to scroll right on by._


Because a litany of complaints affects how other users think of hydra and if they move forward or not. Users see a bunch of complaints rather than real issues to make decisions.

If you bought your first TiVo today, you'd just use the back button without complaint.


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Missing functionality are mostly backdoor things like copies from PCs. Or the live guide (the new release is closer).


And you are trivializing functionality that was removed from Hydra. Both transfer for PC & HMO support were very much promoted features from TiVo and not 'backdoors'. Your word choice doesn't paint an accurate picture either.


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Because a litany of complaints affects how other users think of hydra and if they move forward or not. Users see a bunch of complaints rather than real issues to make decisions..


Yes, that's how forums work. People share their perspective and other people read those perspectives and make decisions for themselves based on what they learn.

You've made it perfectly clear that you don't like my opinion. I hope I've made it perfectly clear that I hear you, and your comments have been given the consideration they deserve.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

pldoolittle said:


> If my complaining about the functionality is trivial, of what value is is your complaining about my complaining? Less than trivial...
> 
> I don't like the new functionality. I consider it to be "broken", and I voiced that opinion here. If you don't agree, _feel free to scroll right on by._


You mean they corrected the functionality to make more sense. The back button is very intuitive. While using the left button to go back is nowhere close to intuitive. Since it makes no sense to use the left button to go back to the previous screen.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> You mean they corrected the functionality to make more sense. The back button is very intuitive. While using the left button to go back is nowhere close to intuitive. Since it makes no sense to use the left button to go back to the previous screen.


Intuitive is different than convenient. The old way didn't require leaving the navigation circle on the remote. (At least within the TiVo UI. TiVo's done a poor job of coordinating with the streaming app developers to establish any sort of navigation control uniformity.)

The key is ... the left arrow still works as it always has; nothing's changed. Unless the user has opted to discard the old way of doing things in favor of upgrading their boxes to a "new experience," TE4.


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> You mean they corrected the functionality to make more sense. The back button is very intuitive. While using the left button to go back is nowhere close to intuitive. Since it makes no sense to use the left button to go back to the previous screen.


Obviously, I disagree. If I went right to open, left to go back makes perfect sense. It's also the way it's been done for 18 years. So we took functionality, changed it, and left the old button dead. That's not progress, it's change for change's sake.

I am also of the view that a no button (on any screen) should ever be "dead" or useless. If left has no function, make it go back. If I'm already playing and I press Play, display info. Or pause. Same for when I'm pausing and press pause. If I'm at the bottom on a menu and I press down, go to the top. Everything should allow one to move through the UI as fluidly and with as little effort as possible.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> You mean they corrected the functionality to make more sense. The back button is very intuitive. While using the left button to go back is nowhere close to intuitive. Since it makes no sense to use the left button to go back to the previous screen.


I have that argument every week with my Sony Walkman audio player, which likewise eschews the use of the left arrow on the "control circle" for a separately-placed back button, to go back to the previous screen. The use of the separate back button makes imminent sense--and yet my fingers still continually, intuitively press the left button, 3-4 years later, rather than separately reaching for the back button.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

In Hydra 21.8.1 navigation has changed. The left < and right > buttons are used to navigate horizontally in menus from left to right as if you were in the TV guide grid. Likewise the up ^ button and down ¥ button are .used to navigate vertically.

Selecting a menu item is done using the Select/OK button. The right arrow button no longer can be used in place of hitting Select/Ok button. The back button returns you back from where you just selected.


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

How can hydra zoom, sort by first airdate and binge?


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

What is the best program to replace tivo desktop with a Hydra system?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I use KMTTG and PLEX.

KMTTG will automatically transfers my shows to a PC, then it will automatically convert them to a format and naming convention that Plex can use. And then I can use Plex on the TiVos or other devices to view the content if I want to. Although I use it as mainly a backup to the shows on my TiVos.


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I use KMTTG and PLEX.
> 
> KMTTG will automatically transfers my shows to a PC, then it will automatically convert them to a format and naming convention that Plex can use. And then I can use Plex on the TiVos or other devices to view the content if I want to. Although I use it as mainly a backup to the shows on my TiVos.


Thank you.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

And the other option, pyTivo Desktop.


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## Bluecat25 (Jun 3, 2013)

TonyD79 said:


> Not really. You are still focusing on a difference. How about just using that as designed?
> 
> Missing functionality are mostly backdoor things like copies from PCs. Or the live guide (the new release is closer).
> 
> Complaining about having to use a left arrow versus back seems trivial.


Have they put back in the ability to binge a show? That was a biggy they took out. I hate Hydra, I just feel like it is clunky. And I hate not being able to just stream a series I 've recorded. Because I can't, I've been watching Hulu instead. Makes me wonder if Tivo is worth paying for. We are long time users, on our 3rd box. But it is really hard to like these days.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Bluecat25 said:


> Have they put back in the ability to binge a show? That was a biggy they took out. I hate Hydra, I just feel like it is clunky. And I hate not being able to just stream a series I 've recorded. Because I can't, I've been watching Hulu instead. Makes me wonder if Tivo is worth paying for. We are long time users, on our 3rd box. But it is really hard to like these days.


If it gets to that point, you always have the option of going back to Gen3.


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

Bluecat25 said:


> Have they put back in the ability to binge a show? That was a biggy they took out. I hate Hydra, I just feel like it is clunky. And I hate not being able to just stream a series I 've recorded. Because I can't, I've been watching Hulu instead. Makes me wonder if Tivo is worth paying for. We are long time users, on our 3rd box. But it is really hard to like these days.


I pay for Hulu but do not use it unless I am desperate to see a show I cannot get on cable or Amazon. Maybe 3 times a year. The UI is the main problem for me. Navigating is not fun. If it was my only source I may be better at it but to make Tivo look more like Hulu seems like several steps backward for me.

If I run 8TB to Tivo desktop, is there an easy way to get it back on my Tivo after I reset everything? Is there going to be a way to roll back without losing my setting/lists and shows?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

johnd01 said:


> If I run 8TB to Tivo desktop, is there an easy way to get it back on my Tivo after I reset everything? Is there going to be a way to roll back without losing my setting/lists and shows?


pyTivo Desktop can be used to transfer shows in both directions pre-Hydra (Hydra does not support PC to TiVo box transfers). kmttg can be used to save your passes. 
pyTivo Desktop

Easier to use pyTivo (discussion thread here)

kmttg

New program for 1 step TTG downloads, decryption, encoding - kmttg (discussion thread here)


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Bluecat25 said:


> Have they put back in the ability to binge a show? That was a biggy they took out.


An issue I can respect. I never used that on the old interface but you are talking about a capability not just a slight difference. Others include on box transfers and transfers to the box from a pc. The live guide was another. Perhaps the new mini guide satisfies that enough. Not being a live guide user, I don't know. I do know I will use it more since it is quick and easy without messing with the main guide....


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> An issue I can respect. I never used that on the old interface but you are talking about a capability not just a slight difference. Others include on box transfers and transfers to the box from a pc. The live guide was another. Perhaps the new mini guide satisfies that enough. Not being a live guide user, I don't know. I do know I will use it more since it is quick and easy without messing with the main guide....[/QUOTE
> I only use guide to troubleshoot why I did not get a program. The other time is if the guide data has not been updated so I can make a best guess at a manual recording.
> 
> I am finding the big icons are getting in the way. I end up going to all shows and scrolling down several screens to get to where I want. I will watch that show and have to jump through all the hoops to get to the show a few lines above where the last show was.
> When I open a folder I have to scroll sideways to view all. Is there a way to get view all as the default rather than an eppasode icon?


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## Megamind (Feb 18, 2013)

johnd01 said:


> When I open a folder I have to scroll sideways to view all. Is there a way to get view all as the default rather than an eppasode icon?


Go to Settings | User Preferences | My Shows Options and disable the episode strip. If I understand you correctly, that should address your issue.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Megamind said:


> Go to Settings | User Preferences | My Shows Options and disable the episode strip. If I understand you correctly, that should address your issue.


That is the way to get show lists most like the old interface. You will still get tiles for continued viewing but just one line.

I've switched back to the episode strip. It is one less click and seems smoother on latest release.


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## Megamind (Feb 18, 2013)

TonyD79 said:


> That is the way to get show lists most like the old interface. You will still get tiles for continued viewing but just one line.


True, although he specifically referenced opening a folder so my presumption was it was the episode strip and not the Continue Watching tiles that he didn't like.



TonyD79 said:


> I've switched back to the episode strip. It is one less click and seems smoother on latest release.


Same here. Of course, I don't usually have more than a few episodes of any given show at one time. If I had the multiple seasons that some people maintain, the list might be preferable to the strip.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I use the episode strip regularly. And typically have each show sorted by season(although a few I have sorted by date--fortunately the TiVo remembers the sort option for each show). So when I select a show, I just need to go to the left, two tiles, to have have the most recent episode highlighted.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

I tried hydra again for a week and today reverted back again. It is improved since my first try but I still like encore better. It's just easier to use and fewer steps to accomplish things. 

Example: I'm in the guide and see a show to record, record show is one press and I'm back in the guide. With Hydra it's 3 or 4 steps to record and return to the guide.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Megamind said:


> True, although he specifically referenced opening a folder so my presumption was it was the episode strip and not the Continue Watching tiles that he didn't like.


I know. Just adding that not all strips go away.



Megamind said:


> Same here. Of course, I don't usually have more than a few episodes of any given show at one time. If I had the multiple seasons that some people maintain, the list might be preferable to the strip.


Agreed. But then you select the tile to the left of the show to get the list.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> If you bought your first TiVo today, you'd just use the back button without complaint.


And all of the existing Tivo users get confused. And aggravated, as seen here, because staying in the arrow circle is so much easier.

Same experience I have when using the Netflix app, having to remember that the freaking Clear button is the way to exit the app.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> And all of the existing Tivo users get confused. And aggravated, as seen here, because staying in the arrow circle is so much easier.
> 
> Same experience I have when using the Netflix app, having to remember that the freaking Clear button is the way to exit the app.


I'm weeping tears.

Staying in the circle? That assumes you were in it. And then back button is just to the left. And that assumes you use the peanut. Lots of users use a universal.

Once you did something wrong (yes, left to exit is wrong), you can never fix it?

And you can exit Netflix many ways. Live tv. Menu. Clear. That's off the top of my head.


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## Megamind (Feb 18, 2013)

slowbiscuit said:


> because staying in the arrow circle is so much easier.


With my big thumb in a dark room, absolutely true. The use of the back arrow to return to a previous screen is also consistent with many browsers and other programs both desktop and mobile. So yes, personally, I'd like to have the option. But with that said, I understand the underlying logic behind the decision (especially with all the "horizontal" aspects of the UI design) and certainly don't think it's anything to get worked up about either way.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Once you did something wrong (yes, left to exit is wrong)


One man's "wrong" is another man's "intuitive." Many people loved that unique aspect of the TiVo experience; but, with TiVo's expanding to a streaming platform, the left/right mechanism creates an inconsistent user experience. TiVo may be able to (eventually) get the app developers to adhere to a common navigation scheme, but left/right for back/selection wouldn't be possible.

p.s. The 'Back' button should allow for exiting from most apps, just not immediate. The 'TiVo' button exits apps immediately.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

schatham said:


> I tried hydra again for a week and today reverted back again. It is improved since my first try but I still like encore better. It's just easier to use and fewer steps to accomplish things.
> 
> Example: I'm in the guide and see a show to record, record show is one press and I'm back in the guide.
> _*With Hydra it's 3 or 4 steps to record and return to the guide.*_


In Hydra, recording from the guide is 2 button presses not 3 or 4

1 Hit Record button.
2 Hit Ok button (selecting 'Record just this episode' in the pop-up menu returns back to the guide)

You also have the option to choose Watch Live, Create OnePass, Bookmark this episode or More info.


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## Megamind (Feb 18, 2013)

CloudAtlas said:


> 2 Hit Ok button (selecting 'Record just this episode' in the pop-up menu returns back to the guide)


If you have "Always Display Options" enabled (as I do), then after 'Record just this episode' you get another pop-up for 'Recording Options'. So, it _could_ be three steps. Still, to your point, I really don't think that's any different than Encore.


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

When I turn my tv on I still have to push another key that will not leave me where I left off. When I start in the middle of a show the buffer is not recorded so even if I happen to like what is on I cannot go back and see the previous part of the show. If I could switch back easy I would. I am using a Premier to watch my shows now. I wish I would have upgraded one of them instead of my best Roamio. I am waiting for a rollback that will not require dumping all my shows.


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

I use my Roamio OTA on a daily basis, for both live and recorded viewing. I switched to Hydra the day it became available, and while it had a few hiccups, I've never once regretted doing so, or even for a moment thought about going back. I would count myself solidly in the "like it" camp.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

CloudAtlas said:


> In Hydra, recording from the guide is 2 button presses not 3 or 4
> 
> 1 Hit Record button.
> 2 Hit Ok button (selecting 'Record just this episode' in the pop-up menu returns back to the guide)
> ...


I was only giving my opinion after trying it again.

I had to scroll down, adding steps, to select record just this episode in Hydra, Encore was already high lighted on record this episode. I also had to use back button to get back to the guide.

It was just one example of having to use more steps. I'm not saying it's a big deal, just the facts are that Hydra requires extra steps.


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

What is wrong with this method of downgrading?

Buy 2 or 3 Bolts 3TB Tivo Bolts, transfer all my shows and OnePass to them, roll back the software in my Romeo, transfer the shows back to Romeo and return the Bolts.

Is there a gotcha in there someplace? Does Tivo still have the 30-day return policy? 
There will be some shows that will not transfer and there will be some show that I choose not to transfer. 

PS. I posted this in another thread but really wanted it here.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Sounds workable to me, but somewhat unethical.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

slowbiscuit said:


> Sounds workable to me, but somewhat unethical.


Whole thread here -> Downgrade from Hydra without losing your shows?

I stopped looking when I saw the OP has a 16TB Roamio 90% full.


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## dupah (Aug 1, 2005)

I just watched the demo on YouTube from Tivo's Chief Design Officer and I have no interest in this whatsoever. Is there a way I can NOT upgrade to Hydra on my 2 boxes? I have both a BOLT and an old TIVO XLHD, so it may not even be an option on the latter. So far, I have not been prompted to upgrade and I want to avoid it happening accidentally.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

dupah said:


> I just watched the demo on YouTube from Tivo's Chief Design Officer and I have no interest in this whatsoever. Is there a way I can NOT upgrade to Hydra on my 2 boxes? I have both a BOLT and an old TIVO XLHD, so it may not even be an option on the latter. So far, I have not been prompted to upgrade and I want to avoid it happening accidentally.


At least at the present time, there is no Hydra upgrade requirement. And apart from odd circumstances, it should not happen unless you affirmatively choose it and initiate the upgrade process; even there, you are prompted by the process to confirm, to try to assure that you really want it. You should be safe, absent a TiVo change in policy.

(The one way that I can see the process starting accidentally is where you are using a VOX remote and inadvertently press the voice button, which will initiate the upgrade process--but again, you then are prompted to confirm.)


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Mikeguy said:


> (The one way that I can see the process starting accidentally is where you are using a VOX remote and inadvertently press the voice button, which will initiate the upgrade process--but again, you then are prompted to confirm.)


Twice. And three thumbs up, Enter.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

dupah said:


> I just watched the demo on YouTube from Tivo's Chief Design Officer and I have no interest in this whatsoever. Is there a way I can NOT upgrade to Hydra on my 2 boxes? I have both a BOLT and an old TIVO XLHD, so it may not even be an option on the latter. So far, I have not been prompted to upgrade and I want to avoid it happening accidentally.


That sounds like my GF. And she said the same thing with the SDUI until she was forced to use the HDUI. Now she couldn't go back to the SDUI. Although I will be glad if she ever switches to Hydra, because I can't stand using the HDUI at her house.


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## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

I'm new (again) to TIVO... Just got a new Bolt about a month ago. I do like the voice control, but the menu and guide SUX. So if I remove HYDRO, I guess I lose the VOX? Just got my wife to use it.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tommiet said:


> I'm new (again) to TIVO... Just got a new Bolt about a month ago. I do like the voice control, but the menu and guide SUX. So if I remove HYDRO, I guess I lose the VOX? Just got my wife to use it.


Yep--that's the trade-off.


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

Is there likely to be significant upgrades? If so will they be available on both platforms? 

I own two Windows 10 computers, but I only use the Windows 7 computers. Same kind of thing. Guess I am just an old man stuck in my ways.

I miss the binge viewing the most. I have learned to find my way around, but I really want to switch back. I feel I have given HYDRA plenty of time and it still sucks IMHO.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

johnd01 said:


> Is there likely to be significant upgrades? If so will they be available on both platforms?
> 
> I own two Windows 10 computers, but I only use the Windows 7 computers. Same kind of thing. Guess I am just an old man stuck in my ways.
> 
> I miss the binge viewing the most. I have learned to find my way around, but I really want to switch back. I feel I have given HYDRA plenty of time and it still sucks IMHO.


TiVo has said that the TE3 boxes will get bug fixes and the like, but not future developments. The TE4 boxes will get the future developments.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Lets hope Hydra one day gets some of the features already in TE3. Like the ability to load local content to the tivo.


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## ness282 (Oct 23, 2010)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> My basic guess is that Hydra is at least a year away from being what most would consider "polished" and even then there's no guarantee the other 50% are going to like it because there's no telling how long Tivo is going to continue to ignore or cherry-pick feedback.
> 
> The next update (anytime now) still isn't going to make things much better as far as usability goes, and in fact it makes one big change to the Home screen that will inevitably be controversial here, so we can only cross our fingers and hope a summer update actually incorporates what will then be 18 months of feedback.


So it's just about polished now?


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

One of the best upgrades they could do would be an easy way to go back to where we were before we push the button to try hydra.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

ness282 said:


> So it's just about polished now?


Eeeeeeh... will wait for the spring update and see where it's at.


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## Michael Preyer (Mar 28, 2019)

I am unpredictable, so having a prediction bar is useless.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

tommiet said:


> So if I remove HYDRO, I guess I lose the VOX? Just got my wife to use it.


If you have an Amazon Echo ("Alexa" device) you can get some of the voice features back in TE3. It's more basic, but it gives you pause/resume/commercial skip and changing channels by name. I got an Echo Dot for a few dollars as part of a deal w/ Spotify and it lives behind my couch for this very purpose.


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## Michael Preyer (Mar 28, 2019)

OrangeCrush said:


> If you have an Amazon Echo ("Alexa" device) you can get some of the voice features back in TE3. It's more basic, but it gives you pause/resume/commercial skip and changing channels by name. I got an Echo Dot for a few dollars as part of a deal w/ Spotify and it lives behind my couch for this very purpose.


Do you happen to know if Tivo will play nice with the Amazon Fire Cube with Alexa? I have not been able to make that link.


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

Hydra is just a personal preference (or personal hatred). At least TiVo has so far given us the option to NOT use it. PERSONALLY, i feel there is absolutely NO redeeming feature of this horrible software at all. For those of you who like it, great. But I hate it. And my wife continues to tell me and all her friends how horrible it is. She refuses to even turn on the TV in the bedroom any more because she is forced to use the TE4 interface on that set!

I have two Bolts, a Mini, and two S3s. Six months ago I upgraded one of the Bolts to Horrible_Hydra for testing, just so I could verify how good or bad it really was. And I wanted to be able to speak about it from personal experience. I also participated in a testing program where I had to systematically work through all the various screens and features so that I would really know what was in there and how it worked. Gawd it was miserable. They certainly made some big improvements in the most current release, but it still sux worse than a dozen hoovers.

If my first TiVo experience had been running Hydra, I can understand that I probably would have found it just fine - the same way my first VCR experience way back in the 70s was just fine - I had nothing better to compare it to. But That is not the case here - I have been using TiVos for well over 15 years, and EVERY version of the TiVo software I have personally used has been soooo much better than Horrible_Hydra.

I have given it PLENTY of time to just get used to the differences and overcome any resistance to change or the unfamiliar. Besides the testing, I use the TE4 Bolt every day to watch at least four news programs, and often several other programs too (my main evening watching is still done on the Bolt running TE3). I still hate the Horrible_Hydra software so bad that I finally just decided to leave that nasty Bolt in standby most of the time and simply access the programs on it from the other Bolt still running TE3. For my morning news programs, I recently reverted back to watching them all on the 12 year old S3 that the ruined Bolt is resting on in the sitting room.

It is good that TE4 is still optional, but really a bummer that they make getting RID of TE4 so traumatic for anyone with a lot of recordings. Because of that, I continue to strongly recommend that no-one should risk just trying the new software unless they REALLY understand what they are risking. I am just glad I had two Bolts so that I could compare them side-by-side!


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## k2ue (May 9, 2002)

I was solidly in the Ant-Hydra camp when I cord-cut last fall, but after being disappointed by the TiVo substitutes that could record streaming of non-OTA shows, and their cost, I went back to cable. Purchasing a Bolt VOX with Hydra & CableCard, I was surprised how easy it was to use, and could now see that they left room for future control by Fire, Roku, etc. So its real crime is just being different. . .


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

k2ue said:


> So its real crime is just being different. . .


Ya think so? I don't. There are real functionality and usability differences.

I went through a similar experience when I was forced to use a DISH DVR for three years after moving to a location where there were no other options. I never expected the DISH UI to look or feel exactly like TiVo, and it did have basic DVR functionality. But even after 3 years of constant use, I never quit resenting the things that I remembered from my TiVo use that I did not have with DISH. There were many things that were not as easy to do with DISH, and things like fine tuning the exact pause point or slow frame back/forward were virtually impossible. Would I have missed those if I had never had a TiVo? No, simply because I would not have even known they were possible.

Hydra, too, has taken away things that I know and love from my TiVos; I hate it for that. It has made many things less intuitive, and some things just generally harder to find or do; I hate it for that. It has put big worthless pictures on my screen that I have to remove just to accomplish anything; I hate it for that. It has put stupid sideways menus on my screen where things I want to find are no longer visible without navigating to the bar and then scrolling to the side - the same things that have always been visible on ONE screen in prior software; I hate it for that. Etc., etc., etc.

I do not care at all that it is different. I DO care that it is less usable. Give me the functionality and usability back, and then I will happily adjust to the "different".


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

I gave my wife a 72 inch 4k tv for Xmas this year. For valentines day I gave her a 1TB Bolt. I do not think she has used the Bolt directly. 
Is there a way to get TE3 on my new Bolt?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

johnd01 said:


> I gave my wife a 72 inch 4k tv for Xmas this year. For valentines day I gave her a 1TB Bolt. I do not think she has used the Bolt directly.
> Is there a way to get TE3 on my new Bolt?


This should get you where you need; it applies to Bolt boxes as well.

How to Rollback Hydra from Roamio and Mini's v1


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Michael Preyer said:


> I am unpredictable, so having a prediction bar is useless.


I can relate to that.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Michael Preyer said:


> I am unpredictable, so having a prediction bar is useless.


I just find it rather brain dead for a "smartbar".

- Never predicts movies. Ever. Literally not once.
- Never predicts VOD
- It predicts shows that have been watched and deleted for weeks.
- "Popular on now" is straight-up spam. I never watched an episode of sportcenter, Real Housewives, or the Kardashians in my life.

Hydra's What to Watch is pretty decent at surfacing my movie tastes. All of the above wasted space on the smartbar would be *infinitely* better spent on applying those suggestions to the bar.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Just as stupid as the waste of space Disco bar that came before it, in other words. But that's Rivo for ya, don't let users have options for this useless junk.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Asked and answered. No.


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## omelet1978 (Mar 7, 2006)

I've been using Hydra for a couple of days on a second Tivo Bolt that I have and my initial thoughts are that I prefer TE3.

In general, not having the Live Guide is the deal breaker for me since I'll use it to scan through channels to record movies. I was hoping the Mini Guide (pressing up) would be a more modern live guide but it is nowhere near as functional. Also, they need to cut down on all the tiles and clean up the interface a bit. A lot of the tiles or recommendations lead to shows that you have to purchase and in TE3 I was able to set that to show only movies that were free (on cable or streaming on Netflix). 

I think if I had not used Tivo before I'd be fine with it. The interface has promise by the way, but it feels like it'll be another year or two before it's as good at TE3.


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

omelet1978 said:


> In general, not having the Live Guide is the deal breaker for me since I'll use it to scan through channels to record movies. I was hoping the Mini Guide (pressing up) would be a more modern live guide but it is nowhere near as functional. Also, they need to cut down on all the tiles and clean up the interface a bit. A lot of the tiles or recommendations lead to shows that you have to purchase and in TE3 I was able to set that to show only movies that were free (on cable or streaming on Netflix).


Have you considered setting up a non-recording wishlist for movies?

On Hydra/TE4 it provides a nice list that can be quickly scrolled.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

I have to say that I LOVE Hydra and I'm never going back to T3. Minus the live guide.


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## omelet1978 (Mar 7, 2006)

pfiagra said:


> Have you considered setting up a non-recording wishlist for movies?
> 
> On Hydra/TE4 it provides a nice list that can be quickly scrolled.


Not really, when I've tried the Wishlist thing, it recorded a bunch of random shows. With the live guide though, I know what channels show movies and scan scroll through extremely fast and pick a few movies each week that I like or have wanted to see for a while.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

omelet1978 said:


> Not really, when I've tried the Wishlist thing, it recorded a bunch of random shows. With the live guide though, I know what channels show movies and scan scroll through extremely fast and pick a few movies each week that I like or have wanted to see for a while.


Turn off the recording on the wishlist and you get, well, a list. I use it for a lot of guide filtering like college basketball games, etc. Since you can do logical operations, it can be honed down quite a bit and be very useful.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

My take is the value of Hydra is the simple fact if gives TiVo a relatively modern looking interface. If I hadn't used TiVo since 2000 and just purchased one (with the old interface) I would be "shocked" how outdated the interface appears and promptly dismissed it accordingly. I have used Hydra since the day it was released and my experience has been 99.99% the same. A few more keystrokes here and a few less there. Just swapped drives in my TiVo (deleted everything) and had zero desire to go back...


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Just heard Live Guide is now working in Hydra.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

"any redeeming quality to Hydra?"

Some may find the new RC8**** *built-in AutoSkip *(no IFTTT required) redeeming, if not a killer* feature.









(link)​
* hopefully sans double-meaning (see ReplayTV Commercial Advance).

*** edit: *Per @davezatz, AutoSkip should arrive with a Spring Update for Hydra, not RC8. >see here<


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

foghorn2 said:


> Just heard Live Guide is now working in Hydra.


'Tis April 1st, isn't it.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Hydra on my Bedroom Bolt for a few months and have no plans to upgrade the Family Room Roamio. If I ever clear out recorded content, I may get rid of Hydra completely.


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

omelet1978 said:


> In general, not having the Live Guide is the deal breaker for me since I'll use it to scan through channels to record movies.


If you just wanted to look for Movies (or sports, etc.) on one or more specific channels, here is a very functional way to do that without Live Guide:

First, go to your channel list and make sure only the channel (or channels) you want to look at is selected as a Favorite.
Now bring up Guide and select A options.
In the Guide Options, set Channels to Favorites and Show Category to Movies, and hit A again. 
Now you can scroll down through the list while only looking at a single channel, much like the old Live Guide used to work. And if you want to look for that type of program on a couple channels at the same time, it might even be better than the old Live Guide, but it only works if you use a specific category of shows, not All.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

I'll eventually try TE4, but I'm not going to change it just for the sake of changing it. I expect the upcoming Roku and other streaming apps are going to have the TE4 look & feel, so that's probably when I'll give it a whirl. I like things to be consistent across the board. I also like HDMI-CEC support and hope it comes to the TiVo Minis. Most of our TVs have TiVos & Rokus on them and switching inputs can be confusing for family & guests.



Charles R said:


> My take is the value of Hydra is the simple fact if gives TiVo a relatively modern looking interface.


In fairness, they could've just re-skinned TE3 to make it look more modern. The organization and structure of the interface is great and always got top marks for ease of use.


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## Adam C. (Jul 24, 2017)

I upgraded my Roamio OTA and two Mini's to Hydra today. So far I'm loving it. I had all 3 devices upgraded in less than an hour. The color scheme is so much better than that 1990's style blue theme in legacy. I really don't understand why so many people hate Hydra so much. I find it just as easy, if not easier, to navigate than the legacy system. Getting to apps like Netflix and Hulu is even faster with the Hydra shortcuts. I know many people miss the Live guide but I never liked that anyway so no complaints from me.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Adam C. said:


> I upgraded my Roamio OTA and two Mini's to Hydra today. So far I'm loving it. I had all 3 devices upgraded in less than an hour. The color scheme is so much better than that 1990's style blue theme in legacy. I really don't understand why so many people hate Hydra so much.


I'm not sure "many" people hate Hydra rather they are vocal about their lack of love...  Overall I would say if you are here (TiVo Community) that itself disqualifies you as being a typically user. I can't believe (for a minute) TiVo didn't do new user testing on Hydra and found it preferred.

Regarding the lack of love I think part of it boils down to some feel they own their TiVo and TiVo doesn't have the right to force updates on them. As such it's _evil _and they aren't going to assimilate regardless of how painless it may or may not be. Now I understand if someone loses transfer features or what not not wanting to upgrade but overall it's a lot to do about nothing.


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## El Maestro (Nov 19, 2013)

It's......fine? Once you get used to it it's fine I guess. I sometimes miss the color/contrast of Encore but you get used to it. It's easy for me to say this because I didn't use the Live Guide and I never transferred recordings. If those are things that you use I can easily see not liking Hydra and understand the frustration.


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## dsm363 (Jun 26, 2002)

I tried it a year ago and didn't like it. The old folder based system was perfectly fine. I'm sure the new TiVo coming out this year will require the Hydra interface. It seems no different than the Cox cable box now with the Hydra interface.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Bring back live guide!


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

dsm363 said:


> I tried it a year ago and didn't like it. The old folder based system was perfectly fine.


I didn't care for it either, but since the spring update My Shows is a lot like the old one. The categories on the left can be partially customized and rearranged.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

TE4, Hydra was dead on arrival software. The person behind it should be fired or sued for the equivalent of software engineering malpractice. The guide, allowing simple back and forth network PC transfers, the future is much better than Hydra software. Retire the Hydra software along with the Bolt, bury it in the past where it belongs. Put it on the dusty self with Microsoft Vista. Come out with a new TE5 that returns the best and adds the rest.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Cut & Paste is faster: How to Rollback Hydra from Roamio and Mini's v1

I like TE4 because it is always showing new bugs. It keeps TCF invigorated. Without TE4 and the Bolt this would be a much more boring forum.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> TE4, Hydra was dead on arrival software. The person behind it should be fired or sued for the equivalent of software engineering malpractice. The guide, allowing simple back and forth network PC transfers, the future is much better than Hydra software. Retire the Hydra software along with the Bolt, bury it in the past were it belongs. Put it on the dusty self with Microsoft Vista. Come out with a new TE5 that returns the best and adds the rest.


Stop posting this over and over again. A lot of us like it. So speak for yourself. Claiming something was dead on arrival is not an opinion but a claim of fact that isn't true.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Cut & Paste is faster: How to Rollback Hydra from Roamio and Mini's v1
> 
> I like TE4 because it is always showing new bugs. It keeps TCF invigorated. Without TE4 and the Bolt this would be a much more boring forum.


It does? I haven't run into any real bugs and very few small ones.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

TonyD79 said:


> It does? I haven't run into any real bugs and very few small ones.


One that bites me: I enable my Mini Vox (from Standby) by hitting TiVo or Live TV. I may or may not have a display. If I hit TiVo again, or change channels or perform a soft rest I will get a screen. Its host is a basic Roamio. I'm not crying, but I use TE3 on my Mini every night and never have this issue. I'll wait, since it takes time to get rid of every trivial bug.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> TE4, Hydra was dead on arrival software. The person behind it should be fired or sued for the equivalent of software engineering malpractice. The guide, allowing simple back and forth network PC transfers, the future is much better than Hydra software. Retire the Hydra software along with the Bolt, bury it in the past were it belongs. Put it on the dusty self with Microsoft Vista. Come out with a new TE5 that returns the best and adds the rest.


I'll take Hydra ANY day over the HDUI. I can't stand using the HDUI when I'm at my GFs house. I switched to Hydra the first day it was available. I immediately liked it so much better that later that day, I installed it on the rest of my Tivos.(I had initially planned on using it on one box for a few weeks before deciding to use it on other TiVos)


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Stop posting this over and over again. A lot of us like it. So speak for yourself. Claiming something was dead on arrival is not an opinion but a claim of fact that isn't true.





aaronwt said:


> I'll take Hydra ANY day over the HDUI. I can't stand using the HDUI when I'm at my GFs house. I switched to Hydra the first day it was available. I immediately liked it so much better that later that day, I installed it on the rest of my Tivos.(I had initially planned on using it on one box for a few weeks before deciding to use it on other TiVos)


Hey, no one is stoping you from singing TiVo praises, you have a right to it. But just because you post here often, you are not entitled to your own facts. We all use TiVo and not all of us use it the same or have the same understandings of today's technological advances and why TE4 sucks for most of us.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I'll take Hydra ANY day over the HDUI. I can't stand using the HDUI when I'm at my GFs house. I switched to Hydra the first day it was available. I immediately liked it so much better that later that day, I installed it on the rest of my Tivos.(I had initially planned on using it on one box for a few weeks before deciding to use it on other TiVos)


I did the same. Put it on one TiVo to try it out and jumped onto it as soon as I could for the second. While I prefer TiVo my cable boxes, I always found the old interface to be cartoony and totally inconsistent on its mechanics.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> Hey, no one is stoping you from singing TiVo praises, you have a right to it. But just because you post here often, you are not entitled to your own facts. We all use TiVo and not all of us use it the same or have the same understandings of today's technological advances and why TE4 sucks for most of us.


Again. Try using facts. You say "non-starter" which is nonsense because the majority have moved on then you claim you represent the majority, which you don't. Ironic when you say I and not entitled to my own facts but you make up yours.


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> Stop posting this over and over again. A lot of us like it. So speak for yourself. Claiming something was dead on arrival is not an opinion but a claim of fact that isn't true.


Fact? You've never rhetorically used the expression "dead on arrival" to mean you vehemently oppose an idea? You really never tire of posting your defensive misguided interpretations of any and all negative commentary about Hydra, do you?

Here's a fact for you. The title of this thread is literally "is there any redeeming quality to Hydra?" which should be obvious that it was started by someone frustrated by Hydra (and the direction Tivo is heading with Hydra) asking what they could possibly be missing. An additional fact is that you seek out these threads and spend a lot of time attacking those that don't like Hydra. Perhaps if you avoid threads like these - especially when you see that they are quite plainly Hydra-***** sessions, you'd do your blood pressure well by avoiding them?

It's fan boys like you that bully and ruin forums like these. Which is why I've reverted back to just watching my four Tivo's while I can. 
Why I read this thread and your recent "take downs" is beyond me...

Now back to "serenity now" with my TE3 Tivo. #LONGLIVETHERESISTANCE


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> Hey, no one is stoping you from singing TiVo praises, you have a right to it. But just because you post here often, you are not entitled to your own facts. We all use TiVo and not all of us use it the same or have the same understandings of today's technological advances and why TE4 sucks for most of us.


I would say that for most of us, ie. 50.1% or more, that Hydra is probably fine. Otherwise you would think a majority of people would have rolled back and would be using the HDUI. Yet a majority of capable TiVos are using Hydra. (weren't the numbers posted at one point?)


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## sd2528 (Nov 5, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> I would say that for most of us, ie. 50.1% or more, that Hydra is probably fine. Otherwise you would think a majority of people would have rolled back and would be using the HDUI. Yet a majority of capable TiVos are using Hydra. (weren't the numbers posted at one point?)


By that logic for most people cable DVRs are fine so we can remove any features that aren't in those.

I'm glad you don't use or care about those features. But the fact that there was a TiVo Desktop and when they didn't have enough features in that and /or stopped supporting it other people cared about those features enough that there were at least 2 or 3 alternatives written to take it place that are still in use today. So these are important features for many that do make Hydra a nonstarter.


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> Again. Try using facts. You say "non-starter" which is nonsense because the majority have moved on then you claim you represent the majority, which you don't. Ironic when you say I and not entitled to my own facts but you make up yours.


Here is a FACT for you - it is my opinion that Hydra SUCKS. And another Fact - in my opinion, there is NOT ONE SINGLE redeeming feature of this terrible software. It took away great features, and it added NOTHING.

I have one Bolt running TE4 just for testing, so I could speak from personal experience. I absolutely HATE to turn on that box anymore! My main Bolt is running TE3, which is so far superior to me that I won't even try to add more words to explain it for those with closed minds. I also regularly watch an old S3 THD, and even that UI is FAR superior to TE4. It is connected to the same TV that my test Bolt is, and when I am in that room I almost always choose to watch the S3 instead of the Bolt I ruined with TE4.


> I would say that for most of us, ie. 50.1% or more, that Hydra is probably fine. Otherwise you would think a majority of people would have rolled back and would be using the HDUI. Yet a majority of capable TiVos are using Hydra. (weren't the numbers posted at one point?)


This statement strikes me as one of the most foolish in this entire thread. You imagine that the majority of people who have been screwed with TE4 are users of this forum and actually KNOW that they can remove that terrible software? What a joke. And furthermore, I would bet that even for those who DO know that they can roll back most boxes, the forced loss of ALL recordings and other data is enough to make many of them (perhaps even the majority?) just stick with the new software and be unhappy with it.

Of course, all of this is just MY opinion, to which I am absolutely entitled. You all are just as entitled to your opinions; but why don't you stop trying to wrap them in the lie of calling them "facts"? Save that word for something that can be objectively proven, such as TE4 REMOVED some features that many people care about.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

sd2528 said:


> By that logic for most people cable DVRs are fine so we can remove any features that aren't in those.
> 
> I'm glad you don't use or care about those features. But the fact that there was a TiVo Desktop and when they didn't have enough features in that and /or stopped supporting it other people cared about those features enough that there were at least 2 or 3 alternatives written to take it place that are still in use today. So these are important features for many that do make Hydra a nonstarter.


I stopped using TiVo Desktop in favor of kmttg years ago. I still use it daily. Shows are automatically transferred from my my TiVos to a PC. Then the .TiVo extension is automatically striped and it's automatically given a friendly Plex name and put in a Plex folder. Then I'm able to use one of my dozens of devices, including TiVos, to watch that content from the Plex PC if I want to.

Sent from my Nexus 7(16GB)


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

V7Goose said:


> Here is a FACT for you - it is my opinion that Hydra SUCKS. And another Fact - in my opinion, there is NOT ONE SINGLE redeeming feature of this terrible software. It took away great features, and it added NOTHING.
> 
> I have one Bolt running TE4 just for testing, so I could speak from personal experience. I absolutely HATE to turn on that box anymore! My main Bolt is running TE3, which is so far superior to me that I won't even try to add more words to explain it for those with closed minds. I also regularly watch an old S3 THD, and even that UI is FAR superior to TE4. It is connected to the same TV that my test Bolt is, and when I am in that room I almost always choose to watch the S3 instead of the Bolt I ruined with TE4.
> This statement strikes me as one of the most foolish in this entire thread. You imagine that the majority of people who have been screwed with TE4 are users of this forum and actually KNOW that they can remove that terrible software? What a joke. And furthermore, I would bet that even for those who DO know that they can roll back most boxes, the forced loss of ALL recordings and other data is enough to make many of them (perhaps even the majority?) just stick with the new software and be unhappy with it.
> ...


Well then you fell into your own trap.  You mean features that some people cared about. Since as you mention, most people probably didnt even Know about or use them. Your average person most definitely was not transferring content from a PC to a TiVo. or no even transferring TiVon to TiVo. Although no need for that anyway since you could stream TiVo to TiVo.

Sent from my Nexus 7(16GB)


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Many features gone, and I guarantee, most do not know a rollback is possible (ALBIET COSTLY)

With TIVO pushing TE4, so hard, by not doing patches for TE3, you know their argument that 'you can run te3 and te4, take your pick', but then they hide the rollback, make it destructive and do not patch the older version, that their direction is TE4 only.

I think we would need a ground swell of support for te3. Tivo obviously has forced this decision due to lots of dev hours, and will not go back


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

I think it's rather "silly" as TiVo has gone down a path (for several years) that clearly "wrote-off" a few features. Making it painfully obvious they have zero intention of bringing them back. One can debate endlessly how useful you may find them however you can't debate TiVo has left them behind and decided (based on more information than I'm guessing you have) they won't exist going forward. As such it appears rather silly to endlessly harp about them. At some point you need to move on... and thinking "whining" about them here is going to change anything isn't moving on... rather it becomes more so... "*You kids get off my lawn!"*


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

Charles R said:


> I think it's rather "silly" as TiVo has gone down a path (for several years) that clearly "wrote-off" a few features. Making it painfully obvious they have zero intention of bringing them back. One can debate endlessly how useful you may find them however you can't debate TiVo has left them behind and decided (based on more information than I'm guessing you have) they won't exist going forward. As such it appears rather silly to endlessly harp about them. At some point you need to move on... and thinking "whining" about them here is going to change anything isn't moving on... rather it becomes more so... "*You kids get off my lawn!"*


and what most people here fail to realize is that MSO's are dictating the Software now. They out number retail customers by 8-1


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> Well then you fell into your own trap.  You mean features that some people cared about. Since as you mention, most people probably didnt even Know about or use them.


Do you even know what a dictionary is? The word "many" is not hard for most people to understand.

And I didn't specify what features were removed, just that "some features" were removed "that many people care about." If you want to get snarky with other posters, at least try to respond correctly and honestly to what was said.


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

Charles R said:


> I think it's rather "silly" as TiVo has gone down a path (for several years) that clearly "wrote-off" a few features. Making it painfully obvious they have zero intention of bringing them back. One can debate endlessly how useful you may find them however you can't debate TiVo has left them behind and decided (based on more information than I'm guessing you have) they won't exist going forward. As such it appears rather silly to endlessly harp about them. At some point you need to move on... and thinking "whining" about them here is going to change anything isn't moving on... rather it becomes more so... "*You kids get off my lawn!"*


While I understand what you are trying to say, I can only agree with part of it. A public outcry about poor software CAN and DOES often make a difference. I do agree that TiVo has made it clear they have no intention of returning some of the removed features, but the facts show that they HAVE put quite a bit back in. Just one example:

The first couple of Hydra releases removed virtually all ability to see a simple list of programs, or even a simple list of menu entries; instead, everything was shown as space wasting tiles and horizontal strips. A few people said they liked this slow and cumbersome UI because it was more like a comic book and somehow "modern", but I saw a HUGE outcry on many forums about how bad it was to many many people. And guess what, in a release a few months ago, they FINALLY put back lists in most places! There are still a few stupid horizontal strips that unnecessarily hide available information and options, but those are much more limited than the original Hydra.

So they ARE listening to our unhappiness and grudgingly putting some things back. For you to claim that we all should just shut up and accept our punishment is a very poor approach in my opinion.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

V7Goose said:


> While I understand what you are trying to say, I can only agree with part of it. A public outcry about poor software CAN and DOES often make a difference. While I also agree that TiVo has made it clear they have no intention of returning some of the removed features, the facts do show that they HAVE put quite a bit back in. Just one example:
> 
> The first couple of Hydra releases removed virtually all ability to see a simple list of programs, or even a simple list of menu entries; instead, everything was shown as space wasting tiles and horizontal strips. A few people said they liked this slow and cumbersome UI because it was more like a comic book and somehow "modern", but I saw a HUGE outcry on many forums about how bad it was to many many people. And guess what, in a release a few months ago, they FINALLY put back lists in most places! There are still a few stupid horizontal strips that unnecessarily hide available information and options, but those are much more limited than the original Hydra.
> 
> So they ARE listening to our unhappiness and grudgingly putting some things back. For you to claim that we all should just shut up and accept our punishment is a very poor approach in my opinion.


They arent listening to you.. They are listening to there MSO customers


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## sd2528 (Nov 5, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> I stopped using TiVo Desktop in favor of kmttg years ago. I still use it daily. Shows are automatically transferred from my my TiVos to a PC. Then the .TiVo extension is automatically striped and it's automatically given a friendly Plex name and put in a Plex folder. Then I'm able to use one of my dozens of devices, including TiVos, to watch that content from the Plex PC if I want to.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7(16GB)


Something you didn't have to set up and do in the past because TiVo allowed you to do all of that native. You could stream to your TiVo app and transfer things back and forth to a PC to take advantage of your already existing network storage with little or no complications.

Why are you in favor or the slow erosion of features and the additional effort and services you have to use to compensate for that? It seems like a very odd stance to take.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

V7Goose said:


> So they ARE listening to our unhappiness and grudgingly putting some things back.


Having developed software since 1979 (starting and still owning the company) I would tend to believe the software is simply maturing. Which doesn't address a couple of obscure features (based on their judgement) long ago written-off.


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## sd2528 (Nov 5, 2006)

compnurd said:


> and what most people here fail to realize is that MSO's are dictating the Software now. They out number retail customers by 8-1


And you don't think they have the same complaints or would want and utilize similar features?


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

Charles R said:


> Having developed software since 1979 (starting and still owning the company) I would tend to believe the software is simply maturing. Which doesn't address a couple of obscure features (based on their judgement) long ago written-off.


Something that is "maturing" is gaining features and qualities with age. When you take away a feature and then later put it back, you have simply decided to correct a mistake. I am glad I do not have to use your software . . .


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

Besides TiVo desktop and TiVo's live guide what is missing?


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Charles R said:


> Having developed software since 1979 (starting and still owning the company) I would tend to believe the software is simply maturing. Which doesn't address a couple of obscure features (based on their judgement) long ago written-off.


Com'on Charles, they don't use FORTRAN, IBL, or COBOL anymore, but what replaced them didn't take away functionality like TE4.

Sorry Charlie, the grass doesn't belong to you.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

ufo4sale said:


> Besides TiVo desktop and TiVo's live guide what is missing?


The ability to transfer back and forth from TiVo from your personal library without having to use a proprietary system like Plex, which is limited, no 1080, 108Op or 4K on TiVo.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

Joe3 said:


> The ability to transfer back and forth from TiVo from your personal library.


Wouldn't that be considered TiVo desktop?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

ufo4sale said:


> Besides TiVo desktop and TiVo's live guide what is missing?


See here for an attempt at listing the key differences.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Is there any redeeming quality to this thread? [no replies needed]


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

philhu said:


> Many features gone, and I guarantee, most do not know a rollback is possible (ALBIET COSTLY)
> 
> With TIVO pushing TE4, so hard, by not doing patches for TE3, you know their argument that 'you can run te3 and te4, take your pick', but then they hide the rollback, make it destructive and do not patch the older version, that their direction is TE4 only.
> 
> I think we would need a ground swell of support for te3. Tivo obviously has forced this decision due to lots of dev hours, and will not go back


I agree with you totally, but for one little caveat. I don't believe in going backward. Therefore, dump TE4 in the Garbage along with Microsoft VISTA and unfortunately, what's looking more and more like Windows 10, and come out with TE5 that hasn't any of these senseless software issues and mistakes.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

philhu said:


> I think we would need a ground swell of support for te3.


Ponder that statement for a bit...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

*downsides* for me are:

1. less responsive on a Mini via Roamio Plus. if you quickly delete 5 episodes you'll see only 1 or 2 deleted and the other 3 don't appear to be deleted. Count to 5 and they may delete.

2. annoying menu prompts. for example, hit delete on a folder and a menu prompt comes up everytime. so annoying. i just want to delete. the whole reason to use the shortcut key (clear) is to quickly delete something. Not answer a menu prompt on whether i want to delete show, onepass or cancel.

3. in the grid guide the up/down arrows page up/down when at the top/bottom of the guide instead of scrolling up/down one more channel. This results in being sometimes annoying to see certain channels side by side like say eSPN 1 and ESPN 2.

4. in the guide the movie info is often terribly lacking (even after hitting the info button) and results in additional button presses. But record the show and hit the info button on the same show under My Shows and you are given thorough information displayed front and center.

5. can't page/up down in menu prompts. For example, add an extra hour to a sporting event and you have to hit arrow up 5 or 6 times to get back up to the top and complete your task. Before you could just hit page up/down (channel up/down.)

*positives* are:

1. it's got auto commercial skip. Youngest kid loves it it but his couple of shows (like impractical jokers with its 20 episodes per day  ) usually have the option. Personally I rarely get to use it on my shows. Funny thing is the person most likely to skip commercials (read: skips commercials 100% of the time) is the person that rarely sees auto commercial skip. The 2 others still in the household who often watch commercials including my youngest kid mentioned above constantly get auto commercial skip.

2. TE4 allows me to watch live tv or recordings while in the menus on my Mini. I like this because I'm often going back into the menus while a show is playing.

3. Last I suppose the ease of watching the next show in a group is a positive. It does save a few button presses I guess. ... although I get annoyed by the often premature prompts to do so and by the prompts to delete or keep shows after I exit. And the old way was left arrow out, arrow down and hit play. It was tried and true and worked quick. Now I'm waiting a little bit for prompts. So unsure if this one is a positive or not.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> Is there any redeeming quality to this thread? [no replies needed]


Well, hopefully it keeps the Hydra pro/con fights out of other threads, or at least lessens the incursions.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

V7Goose said:


> Something that is "maturing" is gaining features and qualities with age. When you take away a feature and then later put it back, you have simply decided to correct a mistake.


Sorry but both points aren't necessarily true. Maturing software often doesn't gain features rather you refine the experience which can often lead to less features... a different direction and or a more focused experience. In this case they were migrating a package and from user experience (as well as desired future use) they decided what was worth the effort of migrating... for a variety of reasons (with the understanding some may "miss" a feature or two).

Typically you'll put a bow on x features and that's what you'll go live with. Now with additional time you'll often "pretty" up the experience when time allows based on the current feature set not what you dismissed long ago.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

V7Goose said:


> Something that is "maturing" is gaining features and qualities with age.


I think the objective interpretation would map to a slowed rate of change, trending slower to a final state. TE3 is mature software.

Maturity in terms of code seems moot, though, in the context of TE3 vs TE4 since the code was supposedly rewritten for TE4 (as a "new experience").


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

compnurd said:


> and what most people here fail to realize is that MSO's are dictating the Software now. They out number retail customers by 8-1


We realize the tail is wagging the dog.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

Tivo is going to Hydra and that is that. There will come a time when TE3 will no longer be an option.


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## sd2528 (Nov 5, 2006)

mattyro7878 said:


> Tivo is going to Hydra and that is that. There will come a time when TE3 will no longer be an option.


I don't think anyone disagrees with this which is why we are asking for the feature we still use and love in TE3 to be added to Hydra before we are forced*.

Hell, a lot might WILLING convert to Hydra if these features were brought back before we are forced*.

*and by forced I am talking about either being forced to use Hydra or being forced to move on from TiVo completely.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

sd2528 said:


> Something you didn't have to set up and do in the past because TiVo allowed you to do all of that native. You could stream to your TiVo app and transfer things back and forth to a PC to take advantage of your already existing network storage with little or no complications.
> 
> Why are you in favor or the slow erosion of features and the additional effort and services you have to use to compensate for that? It seems like a very odd stance to take.


I stream most of my video content now. And I've been streaming all my music for many years now. So the change to Hydra accelerated that. But what really pushed me over was the crappy video quality that FiOS(and Comcast) has now. That is what pushed me last year to start watching most of my content from streaming providers.

And as part of that, I also use my TiVos, much, much, much less than I used to. If the FiOS video quality was even like it was five years ago(twelve years ago it was superb), I would still be on the Ultimate HD tier and viewing those shows from my TiVo recordings.

Although I still have my 200+ One Passes and everything still gets recorded on my TiVos from FiOS and OTA like before(as a last resort option to watch). But I mainly use my TiVos for only watching news now.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> I stream most of my video content now. And I've been streaming all my music for many years now. So the change to Hydra accelerated that. But what really pushed me over was the crappy video quality that FiOS(and Comcast) has now. That is what pushed me last year to start watching most of my content from streaming providers.


Dumb question, but since you are still paying for cable, do you have FIOS Verizon?
Did they come to your house to do a test?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> Dumb question, but since you are still paying for cable, do you have FIOS Verizon?
> Did they come to your house to do a test?


A test for what? The video quality is what it is. Whether I take a raw stream recorded from a TiVo, viewed on a PC. Or viewed on my UHD TVs. Or viewed at friends houses on an 8K TV, OLED TVs etc. It looks like crap everywhere I've viewed FiOS in Virginia, DC, and Maryland.

It looks nothing like the FiOS recordings I have from five or ten years ago.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

compnurd said:


> They arent listening to you.. They are listening to there MSO customers


But, they are _listening_.


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## k2ue (May 9, 2002)

I was a huge TE3 fan and hated Hydra, then I sold the TiVos and we used Plex and Emby for 6 months. Deciding we liked TiVo's functionality better, I bought back in and we started using the installed Hydra with no recent comparison to TE3. No problem, no hate, and we can see why it will lend itself to a similar app for streaming boxes. I guess it was just the abrupt change that put us off initally -- slower transition like the SD to HD menu move in TE3 might have worked better.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> A test for what? The video quality is what it is. Whether I take a raw stream recorded from a TiVo, viewed on a PC. Or viewed on my UHD TVs. Or viewed at friends houses on an 8K TV, OLED TVs etc. It looks like crap everywhere I've viewed FiOS in Virginia, DC, and Maryland.
> 
> It looks nothing like the FiOS recordings I have from five or ten years ago.


Sorry for asking, don't know what came over me.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

k2ue said:


> Deciding we liked TiVo's functionality better, I bought back in and we started using the installed Hydra with no recent comparison to TE3. No problem, no hate, and we can see why it will lend itself to a similar app for streaming boxes.


My take is the changes (per se) isn't/aren't really the main issue. Rather some believe they own (their) TiVos and as such TiVo doesn't have the "right" to alter it without their expressed permission. Now it's fine if they add features they like however if it goes the other way not so such. Ultimately you are using TiVo's service which can be altered at any time and one would have to reasonably expect it to be changed in a way that might not be to your liking. Obviously some people aren't willing to sacrifice for the greater good.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> Sorry for asking, don't know what came over me.


Sorry about that. I didn't intend to word it the way I did.

I guess some of the hostility in this thread wore off on me.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

I view this as no different than any other piece of software that gets upgraded and causes frustration. The last version of MS Office which was a major overhaul (maybe Office 13?) was so frustrating to use at first and I rolled it back as long as I could at home and thankfully my employer didn’t adopt it until they needed to as well. Still stuff that’s annoying 6 years later. 

Part of the issue is that many designers consider themselves auteurs and not just programmers and they get wrapped up in the visual vs the functional. I guess that’s just part of the design process. You can’t design something people want, you have to give them something they never knew they wanted to be a home run.

Is this something anyone never knew they needed?


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> Sorry about that. I didn't intend to word it the way I did.
> 
> I guess some of the hostility in this thread wore off on me.


Now you use the anger to call Fios and say, I am mad as hell and I am not going to be robbed anymore.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I view this as no different than any other piece of software that gets upgraded and causes frustration. The last version of MS Office which was a major overhaul (maybe Office 13?) was so frustrating to use at first and I rolled it back as long as I could at home and thankfully my employer didn't adopt it until they needed to as well. Still stuff that's annoying 6 years later.
> 
> Part of the issue is that many designers consider themselves auteurs and not just programmers and they get wrapped up in the visual vs the functional. I guess that's just part of the design process. You can't design something people want, you have to give them something they never knew they wanted to be a home run.
> 
> Is this something anyone never knew they needed?


I have dealt with good smart programmers and asked about our front facing UI when it was getting too old to look at and they said they didn't do graphics design and that they were programmers. Maybe they do things different on the West Coast, but on the East Coast, those MIT guys know enough to stay in their own lane.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Joe3 said:


> I have dealt with good smart programmers and asked about our front facing UI when it was getting too old to look at and they said they didn't do graphics design and that they were programmers. Maybe they do things different on the West Coast, but on the East Coast, those MIT guys know enough to stay in their own lane.


They sound smart and that their MIT education paid off!


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Joe3 said:


> I have dealt with good smart programmers and asked about our front facing UI when it was getting too old to look at and they said they didn't do graphics design and that they were programmers. Maybe they do things different on the West Coast, but on the East Coast, those MIT guys know enough to stay in their own lane.


I remember being in a programming class, an early lesson was concentrate on making it functional, reliable and don't get hung making it pretty. This was on the West Coast too.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Another downside to Hydra:

6. pause a game on the Mini and turn off the tv and the next day, when you turn the tv on, you discover it played through the rest of that game and the next ~3 ~3hr games. It's nothing terrible. It might use a little extra energy, it shows the games as played, and in this last case I saw the score of one of the games when I turned the tv back on the next day.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Another downside to Hydra:
> 
> 6. pause a game on the Mini and turn off the tv and the next day, when you turn the tv on, you discover it played through the rest of that game and the next ~3 ~3hr games. It's nothing terrible. It might use a little extra energy, it shows the games as played, and in this last case I saw the score of one of the games when I turned the tv back on the next day.


Why did it do that? I've done this many times on my Mini Vox and v1 Mini with Hydra. I'll come back days or weeks later and it's still paused in the same spot, where I was watching a program before.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> Why did it do that? I've done this many times on my Mini Vox and v1 Mini with Hydra. I'll come back days or weeks later and it's still paused in the same spot, where I was watching a program before.


That's what I thought. I guess it's probably user error.  It was a recent annoyance. But I probably just hit pLay on the Tivo remote while watching APPLETv. And then with the continuous playback of all shows in a folder it played them through them all or something. so it looks like I will have to take that back


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

disregard


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> The ability to transfer back and forth from TiVo from your personal library without having to use a proprietary system like Plex, which is limited, no 1080, 108Op or 4K on TiVo.


The Bolt and Mini VOX do support 1080p with Plex according to these posts and I don't believe anything supports 4K transfers back to a TiVo without transcoding (even on TE3) so only the 1080p part of your argument applies to Roamio's and old Mini's.

Plex for Tivo update for 1080p

Plex for Tivo update for 1080p

Scott


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## dsm363 (Jun 26, 2002)

I think the large 'suggestions' area and getting to things like shows is harder than it used to be.

Can't figure out how to get to the screen that showed what was on the 6 tuners too. Hydra is a big step backwards.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

I find that the 'right arrow' 'tuners' list is way more difficult to see what's happening. The 'box' around the tuner is vague and it's not immediately apparent which tuner is the one you're about to select.

Eventually, you can end up with nearly the same result as TE3, just not _nearly_ as intuitive...

-KP


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

kpeters59 said:


> I find that the 'right arrow' 'tuners' list is way more difficult to see what's happening. The 'box' around the tuner is vague and it's not immediately apparent which tuner is the one you're about to select.
> 
> Eventually, you can end up with nearly the same result as TE3, just not _nearly_ as intuitive...
> 
> -KP


minus removed features


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

True that, but I'd quit with push/pull back and forth to the TiVo quite a while before TE4 ripped it out of the system. 

I still pull a few shows I 'archive', but use Kodi to play them back. It's too simple and my shows just sit on their NAS 'til needed.

-KP


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

I never did push

i still do pull with kmttg and my archive with pytivo


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## dsm363 (Jun 26, 2002)

I gave it another try and downgraded again (my old Bolt died so they sent a replacement with the Hydra interface).

I really don't know why they had to change things so drastically.


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Having my huge tv archive (300 TB) available indexed to a tivo, NOT the horrible plex interface, is a joy

the new downside now is a mini running te3 cannot use the pytivo archive and cannot watch shows on a tivohd (series 3)


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

Where are you storing 300 tb of tv/movies?


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## philhu (Apr 11, 2001)

Supposed to be 30

and it is tv from 50s to 70s

old movies before 1974


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

300 tb is a lot!!! 30 I can see.


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