# Ces 2016?



## jmy2469 (Oct 19, 2015)

Does anyone think that there may be a new TIVO product unveiled ay CES 2016 in January?


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## HD_Dude (Sep 11, 2006)

jmy2469 said:


> Does anyone think that there may be a new TIVO product unveiled ay CES 2016 in January?


Great question! I usually go every year, and that's where I saw an actual, live 'Mega.'

I wanted it.

Still do!


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## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

Perhaps a Bolt revision for the TiVo Mini. 

I wouldn't expect any new DVRs (i.e. Bolt Pro) to be unveiled. They may privately demo a Bolt Pro engineering prototype, but this would occur behind closed doors under signed NDA's - nothing of substance would leak about these meetings.


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## ShinySteelRobot (Apr 2, 2010)

mrizzo80 said:


> I wouldn't expect any new DVRs (i.e. Bolt Pro)


Why no Bolt Pro? Surely adding 2 more tuners and a larger hard drive to the base Bolt hardware they're already shipping wouldn't take more than a year?

After all, for any given lineup of Tivo hardware, isn't a "Pro" just the same hardware with a couple more tuners and more recording capacity?

TiVo just needs to engineer a larger Bolt chassis.

Heck, Weaknees is already shipping stock Bolts with up to 8TB of storage (external of course). Now we just need more tuners and we've got a Pro.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Wonder if they'll unveil the TiVo Bolt Aereo edition.


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## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

SullyND said:


> Wonder if they'll unveil the TiVo Bolt Aereo edition.


Oh yeah, totally forgot that is also in the pipeline.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

The plus and pro level S6 Bolts, (if they keep that name), should be coming pretty soon.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ShinySteelRobot said:


> Why no Bolt Pro? Surely adding 2 more tuners and a larger hard drive to the base Bolt hardware they're already shipping wouldn't take more than a year?
> 
> After all, for any given lineup of Tivo hardware, isn't a "Pro" just the same hardware with a couple more tuners and more recording capacity?
> 
> ...


TiVo usually announces new products after CES if they will announce anything around that time of year. The reason being is there are so many announcements at the time that they don't want to get lost in the shuffle.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bradleys said:


> The plus and pro level S6 Bolts, (if they keep that name), should be coming pretty soon.


TiVo said, in one of their posts, that the replacement for the 6 tuner Roamio line would coming sometime in 2016, I just hope it is not in white bent case.
IMHO the Bolt was to have a new product for the holidays, the Bolt, TiVo thinks, would make a good gift as the price gets you a year of service, good for OTA or cable.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

innocentfreak said:


> TiVo usually announces new products after CES if they will announce anything around that time of year. The reason being is there are so many announcements at the time that they don't want to get lost in the shuffle.


Another reason is the KayPro effect; you don't want a wave of excitement for a product you can't buy to impact sales of your existing line. You want the maximum interest when people will actually give you money, not for it to peak months in advance of product availability.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> The plus and pro level S6 Bolts, (if they keep that name), should be coming pretty soon.





Ira Bahr said:


> Yes. We are working on products that I believe will finally hit on many of the items that have remained over the years. There will be no Pro line product that has any fewer than 6 tuners or storage sizes that don't excite you. We probably could've delivered a BOLT with two more tuners and a larger HDD and called it a family, but we knew that the market--and especially our loyalists--deserved much more. *Look for something new next year, right on our normal three year cycle.*


According to the above it looks like the Bolt Pro is slated for Aug/Sept of next year, not "soon".


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> According to the above it looks like the Bolt Pro is slated for Aug/Sept of next year, not "soon".


I wouldn't be surprised if we see it sooner though like a February announcement with a March release like they have done in the past. It doesn't make a ton of sense to blow out the Plus and Pro models like they are if it truly is 8 months away.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That's true. Are they "blowing out" the Pro though? I thought most of the deals have been on the basic and Plus?


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## HobokenSkier (Oct 14, 2015)

lessd said:


> TiVo said, in one of their posts, that the replacement for the 6 tuner Roamio line would coming sometime in 2016, I just hope it is not in white bent case.
> IMHO the Bolt was to have a new product for the holidays, the Bolt, TiVo thinks, would make a good gift as the price gets you a year of service, good for OTA or cable.


It may be White but they have indicated it will not be bent to work with the CEDIA pro install community and rack mounts.

Would be nice of they made it with sturdy sides you could screw rack mount wings directly to and install it without a shelf.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> That's true. Are they "blowing out" the Pro though? I thought most of the deals have been on the basic and Plus?


Plus is gone and only available in renewed boxes. Plus is now discontinued.

Pro is $599 with lifetime to seems just about anyone while supplies last. They are supposedly still making the Pro though.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Last year's CES saw the introduction of the OnePass feature and iHeartRadio app, a showcasing of the still new-ish Roamio OTA, and a preview of the upcoming improved TiVo app for Android. Any guesses what we'll see from TiVo this week at CES 2016?

I'm guessing (and hoping) TiVo will introduce the Bolt OTA (aka Bolt Aereo Edition), an updated Mini, plus new apps for HBO Go, HBO Now, Hulu, and WWE for Bolt and Roamio. We may hear an update about the SkipMode trial rollout for Roamio too.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

My guesses are HBO Go, Tivo Bridge (Tivo-branded moca 2.0 adapter), and perhaps the Aereo Bolt is about ready.

I think the Mini and Bolt Pro are 2H products, but they might show closed door demos of those. There's also the Roku app which has been lurking in the private demo scene for a while.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Last year's CES saw the introduction of the OnePass feature and iHeartRadio app, a showcasing of the still new-ish Roamio OTA, and a preview of the upcoming improved TiVo app for Android. Any guesses what we'll see from TiVo this week at CES 2016? I'm guessing (and hoping) TiVo will introduce the Bolt OTA (aka Bolt Aereo Edition), an updated Mini, plus new apps for HBO Go, HBO Now, Hulu, and WWE for Bolt and Roamio. We may hear an update about the SkipMode trial rollout for Roamio too.


According to a post on the TiVo support forum in New Year's Eve, Hulu and wwe are being rolled out slowly to Bolt now.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> According to a post on the TiVo support forum in New Year's Eve, Hulu and wwe are being rolled out slowly to Bolt now.


Yes, I'd read about an updated Hulu app rolling out to some (though not yet all) Bolts. But there was no official announcement and nothing has been said about whether it will come to Roamio. So hopefully that will be part of a big streaming app-centric press release from TiVo this week!


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BTW, looks like outgoing TiVo CEO Tom Rogers will speak this Wed. Jan. 6 (the first day of CES) at the 2016 Citi Global Internet, Media & Telecom Conference, also held in Las Vegas. Hard to believe TiVo won't have *something* to announce this week.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

I think they'll at least have a Bolt Pro (I doubt there will ever be a Bolt Plus, the Roamio Plus was a mistake, and I think they learned their lesson on that one), and a Bolt Aereo/OTA on display. The Bolt Pro case isn't exactly hard, it has to be about the same as a Roamio Plus/Pro in order to be rack mountable. They could re-do the front, but that's about it.

They might announce some new apps. It would be cool if they had something really interesting to annouce, like their own streaming TV service with Bolt OTA/Aereo integration, but I highly doubt that's going to happen.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

My guess.... Nothing! They'll show off the Bolt, maybe the new Hulu and WWE apps an that's it. More times then not they've shown nothing new at CES.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> My guess.... Nothing! They'll show off the Bolt, maybe the new Hulu and WWE apps an that's it. More times then not they've shown nothing new at CES.


Remember the Mega TiVo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Wasn't that demoed at a cable show, not CES?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> My guess.... Nothing! They'll show off the Bolt, maybe the new Hulu and WWE apps an that's it. More times then not they've shown nothing new at CES.


Sadly, looks like you were right. Nothing new from TiVo at CES.

http://pr.tivo.com/press-releases/t...fire-tv-and-the-latest-mo-nasdaq-tivo-1237545

Oh well, my errant predictions were in good company as Dave Zatz was also expecting a new HBO Go app to be announced...


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Wasn't that demoed at a cable show, not CES?


Not quite. It was at a custom integrators show, I believe CEDIA.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

HarperVision said:


> Not quite. It was at a custom integrators show, I believe CEDIA.


The TiVo Mega was demo'ed at last year's CES, although it had already been shown or announced prior to that.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> The TiVo Mega was demo'ed at last year's CES, although it had already been shown or announced prior to that.


Yeah...like I said....*CEDIA 2014*!


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I gotta learn to stop being optimistic with my CES predictions. 

It's true they usually only share second-tier news at CES and save the unveils (like Aereo Bolt) for launch or when they aren't sharing a spotlight.

There could be more announcements to come, but that's just my unwarranted optimism again.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah I wouldn't get my hopes up. They rarely show anything new at CES these days.

They use to back in the old days, but that fell off years ago. For a few years they didn't even have a booth/room at CES.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah I wouldn't get my hopes up. They rarely show anything new at CES these days.
> 
> They use to back in the old days, but that fell off years ago. For a few years they didn't even have a booth/room at CES.


Last year's CES announcement of OnePass was a pretty big deal, IMO. I'm still hoping we finally get news of an HBO streaming app this week...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Have they ever really "announced" a new streaming app. I mean other then Margret saying something on her twitter feed or throwing something up on their blog?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

They're going to announce partnerships with SlingTV and PS Vue!


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## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

Dish announced Hopper 3. 16 tuners and "Sports Bar" mode (4 simultaneous 1080p video windows on a 4K TV) are the highlights.

http://www.cnet.com/products/dish-hopper-3/


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mrizzo80 said:


> Dish announced Hopper 3. 16 tuners and "Sports Bar" mode (4 simultaneous 1080p video windows on a 4K TV) are the highlights.
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/products/dish-hopper-3/


OMG I want that on my DirecTV Genie RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Bigg said:


> the Roamio Plus was a mistake


Umm, the Roamio Plus has a bigger hard drive, and 2 more tuners.. Even though I have since plopped in a 3 TB drive, the bigger hard drive at start was nice.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Have they ever really "announced" a new streaming app. I mean other then Margret saying something on her twitter feed or throwing something up on their blog?


Yep. They don't always but they have. Look through past press releases and you'll see iHeartRadio, Vudu, HSN. Given that HBO is kind of a big deal, and probably the most desired app missing from TiVo, I'd expect a press release when it comes out. Of course, this is TiVo, so there's really no accounting for what they do.


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## Bytez (Sep 11, 2004)

mrizzo80 said:


> Dish announced Hopper 3. 16 tuners and "Sports Bar" mode (4 simultaneous 1080p video windows on a 4K TV) are the highlights.
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/products/dish-hopper-3/


I hope this will finally push Tivo to add "picture in picture" as I and others have requested. This would be a killer feature.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

mattack said:


> Umm, the Roamio Plus has a bigger hard drive, and 2 more tuners.. Even though I have since plopped in a 3 TB drive, the bigger hard drive at start was nice.


I had to go double check which was the 1TB (Roamio Plus) and which was the (IMHO) overpriced 3 TB (Roamio Pro). I'd call the Pro the mistake, especially since it was so easy to upgrade the drive in the Plus.

They do need to release a Bolt Plus (or whatever they want to call their 6-tuner Bolt). But if they're still charging a stiff premium for larger drives I'd prefer it to come with as small (and cheap, and easy to upgrade) drive as possible.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> I had to go double check which was the 1TB (Roamio Plus) and which was the (IMHO) overpriced 3 TB (Roamio Pro). I'd call the Pro the mistake, especially since it was so easy to upgrade the drive in the Plus.
> 
> They do need to release a Bolt Plus (or whatever they want to call their 6-tuner Bolt). But if they're still charging a stiff premium for larger drives I'd prefer it to come with as small (and cheap, and easy to upgrade) drive as possible.


That was the mistake. They never should have offered two models with the only difference being the size of the hard drive. All that did was devalue the Pro version when you could buy a Plus and drop in your own larger hard drive for less money.

I'm fairly certain TiVo has learned from that mistake and when they release the Bolt Pro this year, there will only be one configuration. If users want to crack it open and install a larger drive, they will be welcome to do so, but it won't cannibalize TiVo's sales of its flagship device because they screwed up and offered a slightly-lower-than-flagship model.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> That was the mistake. They never should have offered two models with the only difference being the size of the hard drive. All that did was devalue the Pro version when you could buy a Plus and drop in your own larger hard drive for less money.
> 
> I'm fairly certain TiVo has learned from that mistake and when they release the Bolt Pro this year, there will only be one configuration. If users want to crack it open and install a larger drive, they will be welcome to do so, but it won't cannibalize TiVo's sales of its flagship device because they screwed up and offered a slightly-lower-than-flagship model.


I not so sure of that, I would have not traded in all my TPs if I had to pay the price of the Roamio Pro, and I only needed a 2 Tb drive.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

If they do offer two versions like that I suspect the price will be closer together. Like the current Bolt. If you make the price differential too high then it incentivizes people to do their own upgrades. In the case of the Roamio it was $200. If it was only $100 a lot less people would have bought the Plus over the Pro.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Or don't classify it as a separate model with a different name, but simply offer the Bolt Pro with two different sizes of storage. It's a subtle difference, but important, because then it doesn't create two different models with similar sounding names that cause consumers to get confused.


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## HD_Dude (Sep 11, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Wasn't that demoed at a cable show, not CES?


I saw the Mega at CES last year.....


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Someone else pointed out up thread that it was actually announced at CEDIA first, then shown at CES.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> . In the case of the Roamio it was $200. If it was only $100 a lot less people would have bought the Plus over the Pro.


That must have changed at some point as it was only $150 difference between the Roamio Plus and Roamio Pro when I was looking at them as part of the loyalty deal. $450 versus $600 and the lifetime service was $99 in both cases.

Scott


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

HerronScott said:


> That must have changed at some point as it was only $150 difference between the Roamio Plus and Roamio Pro when I was looking at them as part of the loyalty deal. $450 versus $600 and the lifetime service was $99 in both cases.
> 
> Scott


At the time of that sale your correct, but the original list price had a $200 difference, $399 for the Plus model and, $599 for the Pro model, and that without any service.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Jonathan_S said:


> They do need to release a Bolt Plus (or whatever they want to call their 6-tuner Bolt). But if they're still charging a stiff premium for larger drives I'd prefer it to come with as small (and cheap, and easy to upgrade) drive as possible.


Though remember, none of this is officially supported.

What would *really* be nice would be *official* support for bigger hard drives, like e.g. Playstations have. Though of course, being able to copy off non-copy-protected shows (and not being a video hoarder, which I admit 100% guilt), alleviates that.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

"It's called G.Fast, and Israeli chipmaker Sckipio is showing off the powerful technology at CES this year.

In a demonstration for CNNMoney, Sckipio showed off download speeds of nearly 750 megabits per second traveling over a standard phone line. That's 50 times faster than the broadband that you probably have coming into your home right now.

Sckipio says the G.Fast technology will debut in the United States later this year."


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> "It's called G.Fast, and Israeli chipmaker Sckipio is showing off the powerful technology at CES this year.
> 
> In a demonstration for CNNMoney, Sckipio showed off download speeds of nearly 750 megabits per second traveling over a standard phone line. That's 50 times faster than the broadband that you probably have coming into your home right now.
> 
> Sckipio says the G.Fast technology will debut in the United States later this year."


That's pretty incredible. FiOS advertises levels between 50 Mbps and 500 Mbps and that is fiber optic and they're saying 750 Mbps!

Most technologies show small incremental improvements. Fast DSL is about 10 to 15 Mbps, yes? That's the fastest I'm aware of over current phone line technology. That's a huge improvement!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

waynomo said:


> That's pretty incredible. FiOS advertises levels between 50 Mbps and 500 Mbps and that is fiber optic and they're saying 750 Mbps!
> 
> Most technologies show small incremental improvements. Fast DSL is about 10 to 15 Mbps, yes? That's the fastest I'm aware of over current phone line technology. That's a huge improvement!


They offer 45Mbps DSL here. It's VDSL where it's fiber to the curb and then DSL over the last couple hundred feet of copper. I believe G.Fast uses the same technique and the speeds you can achieve drop really quickly as the copper length increases or the quality of the copper decreases.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Bytez said:


> I hope this will finally push Tivo to add "picture in picture" as I and others have requested. This would be a killer feature.


It would not.

If you have a DVR, PIP is a solution to a problem that no longer exists. Once you have a DVR you can watch your program start to finish, skip over the commercials, and not miss the other program on the other channel that you would have watched in a tiny frame with PIP. Very few people want to watch more than one program at a time. Even regular television sets don't usually have PIP any more.

PIP is just an old-fashioned way to ruin two programs at the same time.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

ej42137 said:


> It would not. If you have a DVR, PIP is a solution to a problem that no longer exists. Once you have a DVR you can watch your program start to finish, skip over the commercials, and not miss the other program on the other channel that you would have watched in a tiny frame with PIP. Very few people want to watch more than one program at a time. Even regular television sets don't usually have PIP any more. PIP is just an old-fashioned way to ruin two programs at the same time.


Not for live sports, especially NFL Sundays, namely NFL Sunday Ticket! Remember it isn't just PiP, it can be PoP and some of us have large enough screens to show both at decent sizes. I zoom mine out on my 136" wide 2.35:1 CinemaScope screen and both fit side by side quite nicely, thank you very much! 

The ole..... "I don't need it, so no one does" mentality. Gotta love it. 

PS - Oh, and the 4K projector makes them both at least up-scaled to HD resolution too. So who has the "old fashioned, regular television" now?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

HarperVision said:


> Not for live sports, especially NFL Sundays, namely NFL Sunday Ticket! Remember it isn't just PiP, it can be PoP and some of us have large enough screens to show both at decent sizes. I zoom mine out on my 136" wide 2.35:1 CinemaScope screen and both fit side by side quite nicely, thank you very much!
> 
> The ole..... "I don't need it, so no one does" mentality. Gotta love it.
> 
> PS - Oh, and the 4K projector makes them both at least up-scaled to HD resolution too. So who has the "old fashioned, regular television" now?


Yes, let's stop this unfair bashing of the upper one percent!


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## jwort93 (Dec 18, 2015)

I was really hoping for a new wireless TiVo mini with 802.11ac 5GHz wireless. That would have been most excellent.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> "It's called G.Fast, and Israeli chipmaker Sckipio is showing off the powerful technology at CES this year.
> 
> In a demonstration for CNNMoney, Sckipio showed off download speeds of nearly 750 megabits per second traveling over a standard phone line. That's 50 times faster than the broadband that you probably have coming into your home right now.
> 
> Sckipio says the G.Fast technology will debut in the United States later this year."


You have to be VERY close to the CO to get anywhere near even 100mb (< 1000 ft), so don't hold your breath. The remaining DSL out there is often too far away for anything to work better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.fast


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> It would not.
> 
> If you have a DVR, PIP is a solution to a problem that no longer exists. Once you have a DVR you can watch your program start to finish, skip over the commercials, and not miss the other program on the other channel that you would have watched in a tiny frame with PIP. Very few people want to watch more than one program at a time. Even regular television sets don't usually have PIP any more.
> 
> PIP is just an old-fashioned way to ruin two programs at the same time.


Yep. PiP was only ever good on paper. In practice no one used it. 4 pics on a screen at the same time is going to turn out the same way.

And who really wants the sports bar setup in their home. I want my home setup in the sports bar. My personal big screen with the game I want to watch on it. A comfy couch. And the remote to the tv.


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## alarson83 (Oct 27, 2009)

trip1eX said:


> Yep. PiP was only ever good on paper. In practice no one used it. 4 pics on a screen at the same time is going to turn out the same way.
> 
> And who really wants the sports bar setup in their home. I want my home setup in the sports bar. My personal big screen with the game I want to watch on it. A comfy couch. And the remote to the tv.


As a sports fan, I for one would love to have the ability to have PiP so i can have more than one game on at a time. Come NCAA tournament time when you have 4 games running at once for the first few days, itd be great.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

alarson83 said:


> As a sports fan, I for one would love to have the ability to have PiP so i can have more than one game on at a time. Come NCAA tournament time when you have 4 games running at once for the first few days, itd be great.


Who doesn't want to have the ability to do something? But does anyone use it long term? That's the big question.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

dlfl said:


> Yes, let's stop this unfair bashing of the upper one percent!


I wish! Upper 1% of the the middle middleclass maybe, and that's pushing it! Many people have projection systems now, it's no longer for the elite snobbery. 



trip1eX said:


> Yep. PiP was only ever good on paper. In practice no one used it. 4 pics on a screen at the same time is going to turn out the same way. And who really wants the sports bar setup in their home. I want my home setup in the sports bar. My personal big screen with the game I want to watch on it. A comfy couch. And the remote to the tv.


See my previous post.



alarson83 said:


> As a sports fan, I for one would love to have the ability to have PiP so i can have more than one game on at a time. Come NCAA tournament time when you have 4 games running at once for the first few days, itd be great.


Zackly! 



trip1eX said:


> Who doesn't want to have the ability to do something? But does anyone use it long term? That's the big question.


Yes ( but you don't so I guess no one does :roll eyes: )


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

lessd said:


> At the time of that sale your correct, but the original list price had a $200 difference, $399 for the Plus model and, $599 for the Pro model, and that without any service.


Look at the price of a 1TB Hard Drive vs a 3TB Hard Drive in 2013 when the Roamio came out. There was a clear $200 difference in price at that time. One could not have "plopped" in a 3TB HD for $200.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

It works better just to put two TVs side by side. For the NCAA with regional time staggers there are rarely four games on at once, much less three or four exciting games on at once. Why have four screens at 25% area each when you can have two screens at 100% area each (and still monitor the 3rd and occasional 4th game with the current TiVo picture window).


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

series5orpremier said:


> It works better just to put two TVs side by side. For the NCAA with regional time staggers there are rarely four games on at once, much less three or four exciting games on at once. Why have four screens at 25% area each when you can have two screens at 100% area each (and still monitor the 3rd and occasional 4th game with the current TiVo picture window).


Cost and space concerns.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

series5orpremier said:


> It works better just to put two TVs side by side. For the NCAA with regional time staggers there are rarely four games on at once, much less three or four exciting games on at once. Why have four screens at 25% area each when you can have two screens at 100% area each (and still monitor the 3rd and occasional 4th game with the current TiVo picture window).


1. There are absolutely four games going on at once multiple times during the first Thursday and Friday of the NCAA basketball tournament. There are also many more than four games going on at once during the college football season. And if you have NFL Sunday Ticket or NBA League Pass or the like, there are more than four games going on at once all season long.

2. How many people have a second large TV?

2a. How many people who have a second large TV want to go through the hassle of setting it up to be viewed simultaneously with their primary large TV?

Most people who have a second (or multiple) large screens have those set up in other areas of their house to make TV watching convenient in those areas. And many people have some sort of sound system and other components hooked up to their main TV. And more and more, the main TV is attached to the wall and not sitting on a piece of furniture with room to put a second screen next to it. So it's not that simple to just pick up that second TV and plop it down next to the main TV and plug it in.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

trip1eX said:


> Yep. PiP was only ever good on paper. In practice no one used it. 4 pics on a screen at the same time is going to turn out the same way.
> 
> And who really wants the sports bar setup in their home. I want my home setup in the sports bar. My personal big screen with the game I want to watch on it. A comfy couch. And the remote to the tv.


Since I've got a friend who basically recreated the screens of a sports bar in his home I'd say at least a handful of people want it. IIRC Red Zone channel on the projector, then scoreboard channel on a smaller TV, and then below the projector another 6 or so computer monitors showing the entirety of each game. (Though I will say that if the home team is playing that game goes full time on the projector; so at least that's not a ADD-fest)

It's a bit crazy. But no PiP  (though every once in a while you get that effect when the Red Zone channel goes split screen)
Fantasy football makes some people do odd things.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> Since I've got a friend who basically recreated the screens of a sports bar in his home I'd say at least a handful of people want it. IIRC Red Zone channel on the projector, then scoreboard channel on a smaller TV, and then below the projector another 6 or so computer monitors showing the entirety of each game. (Though I will say that if the home team is playing that game goes full time on the projector; so at least that's not a ADD-fest)
> 
> It's a bit crazy. But no PiP  (though every once in a while you get that effect when the Red Zone channel goes split screen)
> Fantasy football makes some people do odd things.


lol. Yeah I mean no one as in no one uses their hot tub and no one uses their treadmill.

I don't mean it literally. I round off.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> Yeah no one uses their hot tub either nor their treadmill.


I do! I have to use my hot tub after using my treadmill because I'm in so much pain..............after using my treadmill!!!


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## ScottUrman (Dec 22, 2004)

series5orpremier said:


> It works better just to put two TVs side by side. For the NCAA with regional time staggers there are rarely four games on at once, much less three or four exciting games on at once. Why have four screens at 25% area each when you can have two screens at 100% area each (and still monitor the 3rd and occasional 4th game with the current TiVo picture window).


My dad used to bring the little black and white TV set from upstairs down next to his chair to watch two games at once. Ah the memories...


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

HarperVision said:


> Cost and space concerns.


You have access to 4K 136" projection and you're the one worried about cost and space  
Granted there aren't any great $600-$1000 plasmas anymore for high quality second TVs, but I live in a tiny apartment and fit a ton into a 12' x 10' viewing area.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

series5orpremier said:


> You have access to 4K 136" projection and you're the one worried about cost and space
> Granted there aren't any great $600-$1000 plasmas anymore for high quality second TVs, but I live in a tiny apartment and fit a ton into a 12' x 10' viewing area.


Its in a repurposed garage and I got amazing dealer cost on the 4K Sony projector for demo purposes and resale, if anyone is interested in one that's tricked out and ISF Calibrated?

I'm not talking about just me though. I'm talking about the average home Theater Joe.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Who doesn't want to have the ability to do something? But does anyone use it long term? That's the big question.


I use pip extensively. In fact, I make sure I have at least two linear sources attached to my tv.

On a usual night, I watch recorded programming and keep an eye on at least on live game at the same time. On football weekends, I put a game on each source and flip around.

PIP starting having a problem when people needed two sources (dvrs) to use it. Directv has pip on their genie and it is popular because it doesn't need a second box, second fee, etc.

While dvrs did affect the use of pip, it isn't because you sit and watch, it is because the setup gets more complicated. No one uses pip for watching recorded material. It is mostly for sports.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> I use pip extensively. In fact, I make sure I have at least two linear sources attached to my tv.
> 
> On a usual night, I watch recorded programming and keep an eye on at least on live game at the same time. On football weekends, I put a game on each source and flip around.
> 
> ...


^^^^^THIS^^^^^^

........and unless it's two recorded sports!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> Its in a repurposed garage and I got amazing dealer cost on the 4K Sony projector for demo purposes and resale, if anyone is interested in one that's tricked out and ISF Calibrated? I'm not talking about just me though. I'm talking about the average home Theater Joe.


And if you dropped a ton o money on one "tv" doesn't mean you have the next ton o money to drop on another. 😀


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Look at the price of a 1TB Hard Drive vs a 3TB Hard Drive in 2013 when the Roamio came out. There was a clear $200 difference in price at that time. One could not have "plopped" in a 3TB HD for $200.


Are you saying that at the time of that the Roamio came out a 3Tb drive itself cost more than $200?, I don't remember that, I know that when I did upgrade my first Roamio was in Aug 2013 and the 3Tb drive was about $125 on sale from Newegg. 
Also one could sell the 1 TB drive that was in the Roamio Plus.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

So what's more cost effective - $1000+ for a new DVR and service because it has PIP (some people assumed SkipMode would be exclusive to the Bolt and let that influence a purchase), or <$1000 for a cheapo LED flatscreen and Mini.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Or don't classify it as a separate model with a different name, but simply offer the Bolt Pro with two different sizes of storage. It's a subtle difference, but important, because then it doesn't create two different models with similar sounding names that cause consumers to get confused.


The problem is that the people on this forum would still be buying the smaller one and swapping the drive.



trip1eX said:


> "It's called G.Fast, and Israeli chipmaker Sckipio is showing off the powerful technology at CES this year.


I've seen a few sources reporting this as if it something new, even though we've known about it for a while.



waynomo said:


> That's pretty incredible. FiOS advertises levels between 50 Mbps and 500 Mbps and that is fiber optic and they're saying 750 Mbps!


Some of FIOS's hardware is gigabit capable. They just market the normalish-priced 50, 100, and 150mbps plans.



> Most technologies show small incremental improvements. Fast DSL is about 10 to 15 Mbps, yes? That's the fastest I'm aware of over current phone line technology. That's a huge improvement!


The distance limitations are pretty fierce. You basically have to have the fiber on the pole outside the house. It would be great for apartment buildings, and such, but I doubt you'll see much of it in the US. It will be HUGE in Europe and parts of Asia, like Korea, where they have large, competitive DSL markets, and don't always have cable like we do.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Bigg said:


> The problem is that the people on this forum would still be buying the smaller one and swapping the drive.


That's fine. There's no problem with that. The issue is with TiVo trying to sell two different models, both with a name that starts with P, where the only difference is storage size. That was just a pure marketing mistake. They never should have sold a model called Roamio Plus.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

lessd said:


> Are you saying that at the time of that the Roamio came out a 3Tb drive itself cost more than $200?, I don't remember that, I know that when I did upgrade my first Roamio was in Aug 2013 and the 3Tb drive was about $125 on sale from Newegg.
> Also one could sell the 1 TB drive that was in the Roamio Plus.


Well, i can tell you that the first 2 4TB Drives came out in Fall of 2013, thus 3TB were the top end one could purchase when the Roamios came out at the beginning of Q3.

NewEgg shows the Seagate Constellation CS ST3000NC000 3 TB 3.5" Internal Hard Drive - 6Gb/s SATA - 7200 rpm - 64 MB Buffer - Secure Erase - Hot Pluggable for $178.99 in July 2013.

Generally Speaking, the largest size 3.5 Hard Drive have been in the ~$250 range when released and the previous largest sizes coming in just under $200.

When 8TB become the real "next" largest from all brands, the 6TB will be priced under $200.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

When did you write that post. I just purchased a 6 TB drive for $199 about 4 weeks ago. This summer I bought 2 for $209.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

ej42137 said:


> It would not.
> 
> If you have a DVR, PIP is a solution to a problem that no longer exists. Once you have a DVR you can watch your program start to finish, skip over the commercials, and not miss the other program on the other channel that you would have watched in a tiny frame with PIP. Very few people want to watch more than one program at a time. Even regular television sets don't usually have PIP any more.
> 
> PIP is just an old-fashioned way to ruin two programs at the same time.


I disagree.. I admit I don't use PIP as much as I used to, but I *would* use it to e.g. watch/listen to a news show (or just buffered CNN) while skimming through late night talk shows and such.

I still _once_ in a while use my Toshiba XS32's PIP for this functionality (the Tivo is in the PIP).. Mostly QuickMode and/or downloading and watching on iPad faster than realtime has overtaken this..

A well done PIP (e.g. if I could do it between two Tivo recordings or recording + live/buffered TV) would be awesome.

Heck, the 4 HD simultaneous recordings of the new DISH DVR is at the very least *similar* to PIP.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

If the interest in PIP were actually that great I would expect television sets would still include them as a feature. I'm sure there are rabid sports fans with ADD that would be interested, but that doesn't make it a "killer feature". Particularly on a DVR, whose purpose is to eliminate the need to watch content in real-time.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> If the interest in PIP were actually that great I would expect television sets would still include them as a feature. I'm sure there are rabid sports fans with ADD that would be interested, but that doesn't make it a "killer feature". Particularly on a DVR, whose purpose is to eliminate the need to watch content in real-time.


When a TV does PIP it requires access to 2 sources of "TV". This was easy enough in the days of OTA or unscrambled analog cable, the TV manufacture just needed to add in a dual tuner. However once people started using STBs the only way for the TV to do PIP was to have 2 STBs. Which pretty much ended PIP being built into TVs. When STB/DVRs are involved PIP really needs to be done by the STB/DVR.

Bottom line is the fact that PIP stopped being built into TVs tells us very little about how people feel about PIP.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

Back in the day (when I had a 36" crt tv) we PiP'd our daughters baby monitor. We called it "Abigial TV Ch 76".

Our family room was far enough from the nursery that we didn't get a good signal from the monitor. So I installed a signal generator and notch filter and put her on 76.

I probably did that for 10 of our friends as well.

So for 6 years (2 daughters) we used PiP daily.

Now I think the 4 source "sports bar" solution would be excellent for sports. NFL Red Zone is great but I'd love to have 4 games in full to be watchable. March madness would be great as well.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

waynomo said:


> When did you write that post. I just purchased a 6 TB drive for $199 about 4 weeks ago. This summer I bought 2 for $209.


I am using a WD 6TB Red as the reference to that post.

One needs a quality drive midlevel drive in a DVR, not a cheap 5400 RPM Drive.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> I am using a WD 6TB Red as the reference to that post.
> 
> One needs a quality drive midlevel drive in a DVR, not a cheap 5400 RPM Drive.


Are you trying to be true to your user name.  Clearly that is not what TiVo uses or what is recommended in the forum here when you want to replace your drive in your TiVo unit. Greens seem to be the drives of choice.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> When a TV does PIP it requires access to 2 sources of "TV". This was easy enough in the days of OTA or unscrambled analog cable, the TV manufacture just needed to add in a dual tuner. However once people started using STBs the only way for the TV to do PIP was to have 2 STBs. Which pretty much ended PIP being built into TVs. When STB/DVRs are involved PIP really needs to be done by the STB/DVR. Bottom line is the fact that PIP stopped being built into TVs tells us very little about how people feel about PIP.


Actually it was reintroduced for led TVs. Most of the ones I looked at in late 2014 had it.

Now 4K is a different issue.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> Actually it was reintroduced for led TVs. Most of the ones I looked at in late 2014 had it.
> 
> Now 4K is a different issue.


That is interesting. I wonder if it has to due with the availability of apps being one of the 2 sources so there is more use for it again for people with STB/DVRs.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

waynomo said:


> Are you trying to be true to your user name.  Clearly that is not what TiVo uses or what is recommended in the forum here when you want to replace your drive in your TiVo unit. Greens seem to be the drives of choice.


I thought the proper one for DVR use was the Purple, at least a couple years ago when the Plus/Pro were introduced and which is the time frame we're talking about.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I thought the proper one for DVR use was the Purple, at least a couple years ago when the Plus/Pro were introduced and which is the time frame we're talking about.


Weaknees used the Purple, but I think that was because AV drives don't go above 3TB and they're cheaper than WD Red.

WD AV drives have always been recommended. When the Roamio came out, that was EURS, now it's EURX.

I think the current, and old, recommendation of WD drives would be, in order

AV
Red
Green(EZRX, new version is Blue EZRZ)
Purple


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Weaknees used the Purple, but I think that was because AV drives don't go above 3TB and they're cheaper than WD Red.
> 
> WD AV drives have always been recommended. When the Roamio came out, that was EURS, now it's EURX.
> 
> ...


Hmmm. Thanks. For some reason I was thinking Purple was the AV-specific one. Guess not.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> That's fine. There's no problem with that. The issue is with TiVo trying to sell two different models, both with a name that starts with P, where the only difference is storage size. That was just a pure marketing mistake. They never should have sold a model called Roamio Plus.


The issue is that they lost a lot of money on the two different models because people just upgraded them on their own, and the good margins were on the Pros. Hence, the Plus had to go. Marketing, less inventory, etc, are all side benefits.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

waynomo said:


> Are you trying to be true to your user name.  Clearly that is not what TiVo uses or what is recommended in the forum here when you want to replace your drive in your TiVo unit. Greens seem to be the drives of choice.


I am using that because of very specific reasons.

1) The Highest Capacity with good selection today is 6TB and several 8TB which have come out recently....so 6TB is the norm High Capacity today, just as 3TB was in June of 2013 when the Tivo Roamio Plus/Pro came out, with 4TB just beginning to make an appearance, as 8TB is today.

2) As I hope you are aware, Western Digital has redone their drive line. Previously there was a cheap WD Green (WD?0E*Z*RX) and a WD Green AV (WD?0E*U*RX) which is the drive you are referring to that most use in DVRs. I have some 3TB and 4TB of those in my DirecTV Genies.

3) The WD Green AV (WD?0EURX) has had the Green designation removed and is only available up to 4TB. http://www.wdc.com/wdproducts/library/SpecSheet/ENG/2879-800015.pdf

4) The current 6TB WD Green is different from the AV Drives - and not as good for continuous AV use.

5) As such, most Power Users that I am aware of wanting 6TB are using the WD Red.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> The issue is that they lost a lot of money on the two different models because people just upgraded them on their own, and the good margins were on the Pros. Hence, the Plus had to go. Marketing, less inventory, etc, are all side benefits.


To have OTA, Basic, Plus and Pro Models and only sell less than 150k in a year - too many choices - models had to be cut out.

(Actually there were 6 models as Bolt was rolled out, but considering Bolt essentially took the place of Basic and Plus, though with less tuners).


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> I am using that because of very specific reasons......................


I have my suspicions on who this is.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Hmmm. Thanks. For some reason I was thinking Purple was the AV-specific one. Guess not.


No, but a lot of people thought it was the replacement because Newegg listed the Purple as the "replacement" for the AV drives.

Scott


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

HarperVision said:


> I have my suspicions on who this is.


No one you know?


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## ilkevinli (Jan 6, 2001)

LOL. I see what you did there. 



slowbiscuit said:


> No one you know?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I don't think the community upgrade was much of a problem for TiVo frankly. 

First, the people on this form are just a subset of TiVos market. Most consumers do not open their devices - the type of person that uses this forum is going to be far more likely to upgrade then the average consumer.

Second, the Plus wasn't even the highest selling unit. The best selling unit was the base TiVo - this would have been true with or without the ability to upgrade the Hardrive.

Third, since the only real difference between the Plus and Pro devices was Hardrive Size, TiVo would project manufacturing based on predicted sales. In other words, they didn't make many of the Pro's

There is a segment of the market (High end) that wants nothing to do with upgrades, but has the disposable income to purchase simply based on features. Every CE manufacturer has a product in their line up for that consumer and TiVo is no different.

Smart on them for making the difference far less expensive for themselves to manage this time around. I always thought paying the TFX licensing fee just for the logo and startup "noise" wasn't a terribly good expense (even though I owned one)


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

bradleys said:


> Third, since the only real difference between the Plus and Pro devices was Hardrive Size, TiVo would project manufacturing based on predicted sales. In other words, they didn't make many of the Pro's


Interesting point here is that I bought a new Roamio Pro at the end of October 2015 as part of the loyalty offer which was manufactured in October 2014. Seems they may have over-projected on the Roamio Pro.

Scott


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

bradleys said:


> I don't think the community upgrade was much of a problem for TiVo frankly.


Certainly inventory and SKUs are simpler with only one 6-tuner model, that's a part of lean operations, BUT the community upgrades were probably costing them a lot, as those are the high-end users. The custom install users wouldn't upgrade like that, but that's an even smaller subset of the high end users.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

HerronScott said:


> Interesting point here is that I bought a new Roamio Pro at the end of October 2015 as part of the loyalty offer which was manufactured in October 2014. Seems they may have over-projected on the Roamio Pro.


Are you sure it wasn't refurbished?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Bigg said:


> Certainly inventory and SKUs are simpler with only one 6-tuner model, that's a part of lean operations, BUT the community upgrades were probably costing them a lot, as those are the high-end users. The custom install users wouldn't upgrade like that, but that's an even smaller subset of the high end users.


I think we have to ask: If the Roamio had been designed to be impossible to upgrade, how many of the people that purchased Plus models would have opted for the more expensive unit?

I suggest that number is relatively low... I purchased the Plus and haven't felt the need to upgrade at all. Space hasn't been an issue and I don't want to deal with pairing the cable card again. Now with streaming options and the size of the stock storage, upgrading the hard drive just isn't as intriguing as it was in the past.

Just because people manually upgrade, does not mean they would have spent the money on the pro. The upgrades we do are driven as much by "because we can" as by a real need for space.

No, I think the numbers aren't "significant" for TiVo. If they were, they would have built some protection into the system.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

bradleys said:


> I think we have to ask: If the Roamio had been designed to be impossible to upgrade, how many of the people that purchased Plus models would have opted for the more expensive unit?
> 
> I suggest that number is relatively low... I purchased the Plus and haven't felt the need to upgrade at all. Space hasn't been an issue and I don't want to deal with pairing the cable card again. Now with streaming options and the size of the stock storage, upgrading the hard drive just isn't as intriguing as it was in the past.
> 
> ...


I didn't upgrade my Plus either. I've been tempted but then I realize 1tb provides enough tv for family to watch for weeks before it would empty. New stuff is always being broadcast and recorded to replenish stuff you've watched. And there is always stuff to watch on Netflix/HBO Go/etc.

And, whether the hd is 1 TB or 3 TB, I'd just run into the same scenario where, once it fills up, I have to decide what to keep and what to delete. To me that decision making/management wouldn't change. It would just become what ~300 hours do you want to keep vs what ~100 hours do you want to keep.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

snerd said:


> Are you sure it wasn't refurbished?


Yes positive.

When I asked here, a few others responded they also had received units with older manufactured dates.

Scott


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

HerronScott said:


> Yes positive.
> 
> When I asked here, a few others responded they also had received units with older manufactured dates.
> 
> Scott


Refurbished TiVo come in a plane box, not the retail box and have their TSN changed form the original, a special number is added to the 2nd group of numbers that normally is 0001, but does change over time, all my Roamios have the 2nd group as 0001 (848-0001-xxxx-xxxx)


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

bradleys said:


> I think we have to ask: If the Roamio had been designed to be impossible to upgrade, how many of the people that purchased Plus models would have opted for the more expensive unit?


That may be true for some people. But impossible to upgrade isn't a thing, at least not with Weaknees around. It is a LOT easier to upgrade a Roamio Plus than it was on a Premiere, but there are ways to set up a disk for a Premiere to get up to 2TB.

I'd have to say that I now don't usually go above about 15% on my 2TB Premiere XL4 on Comcast, but I had it close to 90% when the Olympics were on and there was dozens of hours of content a day that I wanted to be able to skim. If I end up in a FIOS area, I think I'm going to get, at a minimum, a 3TB Roamio Pro. Flip side is that a 1TB on Comcast will soon be equivalent to a 3TB on most providers with the way they are compressing MPEG-4.


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