# Almost a perfect alternative?



## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

Well, tivo is not getting any younger, and the lack of hd has started to annoy... I have explored the alternatives before, but found them unsatisfying, or stable with sky.

I have decided to give windows 7 another go. Running a few days now, and so far it seems to have replicated tivo functionality pretty well, with significantly better picture quality.

Using a dreambox 500s, two pcie dvbs2 cards running on windows 7 premium. The dreambox links to a piece of software called tvsource, which takes charge of managing the two dvbs2 cards, and allows the matching up of sky. The encryption of the sky card (the new white card) is handled by the dreambox.

Setting up season passes on MCE is pretty simple, and it prioritises them the same as tivo. The guide data is not as good as Tivos, however, and i am in the process of exploring the integration of digiguide data into the media centre which is more comprehensive then either tivos, sky or microsofts.

The investment is expensive, i am running a dual core 2.6ghz core2duo, a hd3650 ati card (with hdmi, these cards have built in 5.1 audio also), a motherboard with one full pcie slot and three pcie mini slots (allowing a third tuner if need one), with two dvbs2 cards. Probably a cash cost of about £350.

Major test of the system was letting the wife loose on it, she likes it, it is certainly wife friendly and the windows media centre remote is pretty similar to tivo...

So far so good, just need to improve the guide data, once thats done, then i can see no drawbacks!!!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

What guide data issues have you had? I've not noticed any of any significance.


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

TCM2007 said:


> What guide data issues have you had? I've not noticed any of any significance.


Gaps on quite a number of channels 'no data available', non of the hd channels have guide data, and the movie channels all seem a bit iffy. Lots of shows only have generic information, not episode specific.

With Tivo, you get it now and then, but most of the time, the information is present for all the channels that are available.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

There is no way Windows Media Center passes WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) or KAF (Kids Acceptance Factor) in our household 

I went down similar routes, trying alternatives. If I made a table of devices I have tried and their impact on Tivo Usage, they would all be sitting at 0% apart from the solution I wrote about here:

http://tivoland.com/Tivoland/The_Future_of_TV.html

That has had a massive impact on Tivo's dominance in our household, where-as nothing else even registered a percentage point!
We have even cancelled many Season Passes (as we are way ahead of the UK airings). We also have a library of Shows stacked up which we haven't started watching yet, ready for a lull period when our current favourites come to an end. My wife loves Cougar Town which we are nearly through the first season, not sure if its even started in the UK yet!

As a result the constant pursuit to find a suitable alternative to archive live tv (as its aired over here) has become somewhat of a legacy desire now.


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

healeydave said:


> There is no way Windows Media Center passes WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) or KAF (Kids Acceptance Factor) in our household
> 
> I went down similar routes, trying alternatives. If I made a table of devices I have tried and their impact on Tivo Usage, they would all be sitting at 0% apart from the solution I wrote about here:
> 
> ...


Well, tvix gets more use then either tivo or mce, as we download a lot of tv also.


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## benfjo (Dec 20, 2006)

gazter do you have some good instructions on getting the dreambox to work with WMC? I have also been investigating this options but so far have not found a simple set of instructions of setting up the dreambox. 

I'm also expecting a low WAF/KAF/MAF (Me Approval Factor!) for this option, however having to ability to play my movie collection and any downloaded TV series from a single box/UI will help a great deal.

JB


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

benfjo said:


> gazter do you have some good instructions on getting the dreambox to work with WMC? I have also been investigating this options but so far have not found a simple set of instructions of setting up the dreambox.
> 
> I'm also expecting a low WAF/KAF/MAF (Me Approval Factor!) for this option, however having to ability to play my movie collection and any downloaded TV series from a single box/UI will help a great deal.
> 
> JB


I more or less followed these instructions:

http://richardcollins.net/etc_media_center_htpc.html

I even used the same dvbs2 cards.
Installed windows 7, and cards, all as normal (used a 2.5ghz core2duo, nice and meaty but not expensive), 2gb of memory, used a hd3450 (or3650, cant remember which) which has hdmi with its own sound chip, makes configuring the tv really easy (you plug in hdmi, and stand back, and that's it).
Installed latest tvsource software follow instructions above.

For dreambox, i also used the same image as the link, i tried the gemini image but found that the cccam 2.1.3 wasnt stable on it.

Once cccam 2.1.3 is installed on the dreambox (done through the download options), the cccam.cfg file needs a bit of fiddling with, just follow the instructions...

certainly works, you can skip all the bit about newcs, not needed with the ccam 2.1.3


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## benfjo (Dec 20, 2006)

Thanks, just what the doctor ordered.

JB


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

gazter said:


> ... used a hd3450 (or3650, cant remember which) which has hdmi with its own sound chip ...


Some AMD-based motherboards come with HDMI on the motherboard, which cuts down the heat and/or noise. It's possible that some Intel-based boards do it now as well, although I haven't looked lately.


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

iankb said:


> Some AMD-based motherboards come with HDMI on the motherboard, which cuts down the heat and/or noise. It's possible that some Intel-based boards do it now as well, although I haven't looked lately.


The new intel series of boards for the i5 cpu have hdmi built in, but bizarrely the gpu is stored within the i5 cpu (not all of them have this feature).

The gpu by all accounts however cant handle 1080p hardware assisted..


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

I don't follow MCE anymore, so probably a stupid suggestion, but is there no support for the Broadcom Crystal HD BCM70012 that everyone is using these days as a cheap way to get 1080p support on PC type kit.


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

healeydave said:


> I don't follow MCE anymore, so probably a stupid suggestion, but is there no support for the Broadcom Crystal HD BCM70012 that everyone is using these days as a cheap way to get 1080p support on PC type kit.


I dont know, but the cheap £30 ati 3650 (or 3450 cant remember which), seems to handle 1080p with little trouble, i have been monitoring task manager while running a 1080i bbc hd feed, while simultaneously recording another channel, and the machine ticks over at 90% idle, with the dvbserver software jumping up to 10% on a regular basis.

I can only presume that the ati card is managing the 1080p picture (from a 1080i source) in hardware without any noticable performance impact.

This version of media centre has no extra codecs or anything else installed other then the software mentioned, it all seems to work reliably.

Only issue is the guide date being substandard compared to tivo, and i cant seem to manage using big screen epg, to many stages, to few instructions.

The primary feature of tivo, is the capacity to prioritise season passes, windows 7 media centre does this perfectly well, and even has a bit more functionality then tivo (you can choose it to have a preference for hd, if the show is shown on a hd channel etc etc).


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## DX30 (May 22, 2005)

iankb said:


> Some AMD-based motherboards come with HDMI on the motherboard, which cuts down the heat and/or noise. It's possible that some Intel-based boards do it now as well, although I haven't looked lately.


I'm using the Intel DG45ID microATX motherboard. It has HDMI onboard and does MPEG2, H.264 AVC, and VC1 in hardware, so pretty good for Bluray.


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## afrokiwi (Oct 6, 2001)

Hi gazter,

This is something i have been thinking of doing as well, i love my Tivo but i also love my HD. I seriously notice the difference with picture quality between my humax box and my Tivo + the ability to record and watch live Tv at the same time really appeals to my other half .... she just doesnt get it.

What case are you using to house all this?

The dreambox, it can decrypt a legit sly card? 

Regards

Mark


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

gazter said:


> Gaps on quite a number of channels 'no data available', non of the hd channels have guide data, and the movie channels all seem a bit iffy. Lots of shows only have generic information, not episode specific.
> 
> With Tivo, you get it now and then, but most of the time, the information is present for all the channels that are available.


I'm on Freeview and all channels have data. I sometimes see the generic data thing but much less than I used to on TiVo. Maybe satellite is worse.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

I'm on both Freeview and Freesat. It seems to use the same guide data for both such that, to resolve conflicts, it can switch a recording between Freeview and Freesat, between a channel and the +1 channel, between the first showing and repeats, and between SD and HD.

The main problem with the guide data is BBC's HD channel, where it is anybody's guess as to whether they are going to change the schedule at the last moment or not.

For other channels I find the EPG is fairly accurate on programmes and schedules, except that a lot of first showings are marked as repeats, a lot of series episodes are marked as not part of a series, and it often records more than one instance of the same programme.

So long as you have a lot of diskspace, you just record more than you need and delete the extra showings that it records.

Even with the errors in the EPG data, I find Media Center with multiple tuners and loads of diskspace to be vastly superior to a Series 1 TiVo, both in terms of capacity and functionality.

However, I can understand that some other family members may be intimidated by the more sophisticated but complex interface.


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

afrokiwi said:


> Hi gazter,
> 
> This is something i have been thinking of doing as well, i love my Tivo but i also love my HD. I seriously notice the difference with picture quality between my humax box and my Tivo + the ability to record and watch live Tv at the same time really appeals to my other half .... she just doesnt get it.
> 
> ...


Dreambox, yes, legit card, it unscrambles all the channels that you have as part of your subscription. Remember the dreambox isnt really sending the signal, just the decryption codes.

I use an old case that i bought a while ago made by Antec, a black overture case, excellent looking case, but in the past i found that it couldnt manage without over heating. Todays processors run much much cooler so have no issues now, as well as the ati card (with a fan, the passive ones run far to hot by themselves under pressure).

http://chadarius.com/files/antec overture pc case.JPG


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## afrokiwi (Oct 6, 2001)

So reading through the setup post this is not true then?

_ .... swap the card back to the SKY+HD box at least once a month otherwise the viewing card will stop working ...._



gazter said:


> Dreambox, yes, legit card, it unscrambles all the channels that you have as part of your subscription. Remember the dreambox isnt really sending the signal, just the decryption codes.
> 
> I use an old case that i bought a while ago made by Antec, a black overture case, excellent looking case, but in the past i found that it couldnt manage without over heating. Todays processors run much much cooler so have no issues now, as well as the ati card (with a fan, the passive ones run far to hot by themselves under pressure).
> 
> http://chadarius.com/files/antec overture pc case.JPG


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

afrokiwi said:


> So reading through the setup post this is not true then?
> 
> _ .... swap the card back to the SKY+HD box at least once a month otherwise the viewing card will stop working ...._


That is (reportedly) no longer the case, the 2.1.3 cam software is supposed to be able to update the entitlements, i havent used the system long enough to see if this is so, but others have reported it as so.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

iankb said:


> Some AMD-based motherboards come with HDMI on the motherboard, which cuts down the heat and/or noise. It's possible that some Intel-based boards do it now as well, although I haven't looked lately.


Yep - and if you can find an nVidia 9400/9300 IGP based solution you can get an even better solution with integrated HDMI video.

The 9400 IGP can deliver better de-interlacing, and 7.1 PCM audio over HDMI, whereas most of the ATI integrated graphics are 2.0PCM and DD/DTS only - so not as good with True HD, DTS HD MA or PCM multichannel Blu-ray/HD-DVD audio. (The ATI IGP stuff has limited de-interlacing with lower powered CPUs due to a hyperthreading limitation ISTR)

I built an ATI HD 3200 IGP + AMD CPU (low-ish powered Athlon) as my first HD HTPC - and it was OK. However the de-interlacing annoyed me - so I added a 4450 GPU - which improved things and also gave me 7.1 PCM audio over HDMI.

However I then built an nVidia 9400 IGP + Core 2 Due E7400 system - and that works better for me.

If you are into Blu-ray and have a 24p TV - avoid Intel's IGPs - even the new i3 chips with integrated CPU and GPU on the same die have issues with 24p output I believe (tearing, microstutter etc.)

For a low power, thin client, the Atom + Ion (nvidia 9400M I believe) combo works very well. Good for HDTV, Blu-ray and with decent de-interlacing and 7.1 PCM audio.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

healeydave said:


> I don't follow MCE anymore, so probably a stupid suggestion, but is there no support for the Broadcom Crystal HD BCM70012 that everyone is using these days as a cheap way to get 1080p support on PC type kit.


Quite a lot of work going on with the Broadcom chip for XBMC under Mac OS X and Apple TV (where you can swap out the Wifi card with the Broadcom accelerator to let an Apple TV play 1080p H264 content). Still some issues - particularly with interlaced content.

I think the nVidia Ion has slightly muddied the waters for PC users - though netbook makers (including Dell) are supplying Broadcom accelerators to allow HD Flash streaming (Adobe support it) and HD video replay on low power netbooks without using Ion.

The Acer Revo series are well worth looking at for low-power, low-cost HD 1080p replay solutions - both for Windows 7 and Linux - particularly for networked tuner streaming (which with TVSource becomes a possibility in Windows Media Center) You can get Revos for £150 or less now - though some have no optical output, and there are dual core and single core models, and they benefit from 2GB of RAM.


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## mrick (Jan 6, 2008)

healeydave said:


> There is no way Windows Media Center passes WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) or KAF (Kids Acceptance Factor) in our household
> 
> I went down similar routes, trying alternatives. If I made a table of devices I have tried and their impact on Tivo Usage, they would all be sitting at 0% apart from the solution I wrote about here:
> 
> ...


I cannot tell you how excited I am to find your post. After having my second failure in a few months and after having TIVO tied up in knots because they can't figure out what they shipped me and yet to honor my warranty after repeated promises - I am looking for a solution.

This Mac Mini has me enthralled.

I am curious if I can stream to two different HDTVs from the same mac mini.

I am also curious if I need the Roku. The Roku is cheap so I don't mind picking it up as well.

Again - thanks for your post. I have not been able to stream Netflicks for months and now I can't even get the box replaced so this is very timely.

Mrick


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Sneals2000 said:


> The Acer Revo series are well worth looking at for low-power, low-cost HD 1080p replay solutions - both for Windows 7 and Linux - particularly for networked tuner streaming (which with TVSource becomes a possibility in Windows Media Center) You can get Revos for £150 or less now - though some have no optical output, and there are dual core and single core models, and they benefit from 2GB of RAM.


I have a Revo, and while it's possible to overload its poor processor if you get carried away (2 x record, 1 x play back, 1 x remote stream, 1 x extender session, 1 x torrent client had it crawling) overall it's a practical solution.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

@mrick

The latest mac mini's have decent processors in them for such a small box, but when it comes to putting demand on the box, it all comes down to what your want to output.
1080p 24 can be very demanding 

Would you be wanting to output different media to the TV's?

Because there are more than one way to skin a cat, for example I have a villa in Florida with TV's in all the bedrooms and the games room. There is also a 24" iMac in the villa for guests to use to surf the web, catch up with email etc. I have also run cat5 cable from the computer to every TV in the house.

Using one of these:

http://www.hdtvsupply.com/hdmi-splitter-over-cat5.html

The guests and send a movie to one or all TV's simultaneously simply by switching the TV to the relevant AV channel. Obviously this is splitting the output so renders no additional burden on the device playing the media. This will output to 8 TV's which is great value for under £300 but obviously you can get smaller devices too.


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## mrick (Jan 6, 2008)

healeydave said:


> @mrick
> 
> The latest mac mini's have decent processors in them for such a small box, but when it comes to putting demand on the box, it all comes down to what your want to output.
> 1080p 24 can be very demanding
> ...


I was hoping for 1080P if I can get it.

That splitter would work. With the existing TIVO, I was going to wire the composite on one and HDMI on the other. But that splitter would work just fine.

Would work on the mini mac as well. I was hoping that is was the answer. Being so small it would be unobtrusive for the deocr.

Mrick


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## KiNeL (Feb 6, 2006)

I find this thread seditious and subversive.

This is a forum FOR Tivo not AGAINST it.

I must insist that all contributions cease and those who have posted be immediately taken out and shot.

lol


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