# New Cablecard rules - must cable co. provide all programming packages



## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

Okay, so I know the new cablecard rules that went into effect in August say that cable companies must provide cablecard users a discount for not having a set top box. I have two different questions. I want to make sure I know I have a leg to stand on before I call my cable company.

I have Mediacom in Iowa if that makes any difference.

First, I'm not aware that Mediacom "bundles" the rental cost of a set top box with any of their packages. I believe that the set top box rental is always an explicit line item charge on the bill for "rental". As such, are they still required to give me any sort of discount for having my TivoHD and not one of their own set top boxes? I would think that since I'm not being charged rental for a box I don't have, I'm not entitled to a discount on top of that. Or am I, and if I am, then what's the reasoning for that?

Second, are cable companies now required to offer a cablecard user all of the same packages they would offer someone who has a cable company set-top box? When I first got my TivoHD and cablecard installed a few years ago, I had a Mediacom DVR. I had a programming package that, while still didn't bundle the cost of the DVR rental, did give me a discounted price including HBO or Showtime. When I gave up the cable company DVR in favor of my TivoHD with cablecard, they said I could not longer have the programming package that I had. They said that package required having one of their set top boxes and if I didn't have the set top box then I couldn't have that package. I had to drop back to a lower package, which was essentially the same price I was paying except without HBO, and then add HBO a-la-carte if I wanted it. I could keep the set top box and then keep the package, but then I was still paying extra for the set top box I would never use. So I gave them back the set top box and just dropped HBO.

So I'm wondering now if I can call them back and force them to give me the package that includes HBO (or I might go for Showtime), and if they try to give me the spiel about requiring their set top box, if I can tell them to get stuffed (or rather, politely point them to the new FCC requirements).

The FCC rules clearly state that if the cable company bundles their set top box in any packages, then they have to give a discount for not having the set tob box, but it doesn't really explicitly say anything about requiring them to offer such packages to cablecard users, although I would think it's kind of implied.

Thanks!


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm no expert, but you'd think the FCC regs would prevent the cable companies from giving preferential treatment or services to people who rent their boxes rather than a cable card. (And they do still get to RENT the cards, albeit for a lower price.)

Of course, since when have logic and justice ever been major points in this type of thing?

__________________
Fleep was never known for long nosed pigeons.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

The way I have been reading it, the discount only applies if you are subscribed to a package that includes a set top box for free (IIRC).
If you have a STB and are being charged a rental fee, I would think you have no such package.

Your second question is an interesting one. 
I don't think the regs say they have to provide every service package to all, only that they have to allow 3rd party devices on their system.

It's just another loophole the cable companies can use to discriminate against Tivo users.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Discounts for bundled STBs (or DVRs) are an interesting question, and could be termed as discrimination although good luck hassling the FCC for that one. Since they're giving discounts for cards now, I doubt it.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights

Pay only for equipment you have. Your operator must give you a discount on any packages that include the price of a set-top box if you choose to use your own CableCARD-enabled device. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5).


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Their practices seem discriminatory at the least. I would contact the fcc and see where that takes things. Tell your cable Co that you made the complaint.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

jrtroo said:


> Their practices seem discriminatory at the least. I would contact the fçc and see where that takes things. Tell your cable Co that you made the complaint.


Easiest way to file a complaint with the FCC is online.

https://esupport.fcc.gov/ccmsforms/form2000.action?form_type=2000E

You can also phone them, email, or send them a letter per the following instructions.

http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm?sid=d1e664&id=d1e752

Alternatively, you may want to post a message here to see if other's have had a similar experience. Perhaps Mediacom monitors this message board.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/mediacom


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

In the OPs case I had the exact same thing happen with Comcast a couple of years ago - they offered a bundle with free DVR and HBO for a year and I took it, then told them not to bother sending out a tech for the DVR since I had Tivos. It never showed on the bill (since it wasn't activated) and I got the package discount anyway. Now it's even better because we also get the card credits.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

sbiller said:


> http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights
> 
> Pay only for equipment you have. Your operator must give you a discount on any packages that include the price of a set-top box if you choose to use your own CableCARD-enabled device. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5).


I believe (haven't read the pertinent citations) that it's also a rule that if the operator charges for a set-top box, there must be a separable charge for the cablecard inside the set-top box, and that cablecard charge is the same if the only thing you rent is the cablecard. This also leads to a savings for the person bringing his own equipment.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Zaphod said:


> Okay, so I know the new cablecard rules that went into effect in August say that cable companies must provide cablecard users a discount for not having a set top box. ..............
> The FCC rules clearly state that if the cable company bundles their set top box in any packages, then they have to give a discount for not having the set tob box, but it doesn't really explicitly say anything about requiring them to offer such packages to cablecard users, although I would think it's kind of implied.
> 
> Thanks!


I suspect the cable cos have many ways to get around this. See this post where I questioned if ANYONE had received BYOB discount:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8812488#post8812488
As you see two Comcast customers replied they had got them. I'll be amazed if a Time Warner customer has actually got one. My bundle doesn't include a STB. How would anyone know what all the bundle packages are so they could even tell if this is fair?

If the STB or DVR is "free" as part of a bundle, do the FCC regs force the Cable Co. to define an effective monthly rental for them?


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

dlfl said:


> If the STB or DVR is "free" as part of a bundle, do the FCC regs force the Cable Co. to define an effective monthly rental for them?


My cable operator (Bright House Networks) discounts their combo package by $8.00 per month because I'm not using their box. This is not shown on the cable bill.

I'm expecting that the FCC will have to release some clarification on the rules based on feedback from retail CE providers like TiVo and Ceton.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dlfl said:


> I suspect the cable cos have many ways to get around this.


Well, not "many". The only way is if the STB is offered free with all packages.



dlfl said:


> As you see two Comcast customers replied they had got them. I'll be amazed if a Time Warner customer has actually got one.


TWC customers don't get an active discount, per se, because TWC doesn't bundle their STBs and DVRs. Any regular user gets hit with an STB or DVR fee. The 3rd party users don't get hit with the fee. If they do offer a bundle, then any user getting that bundle but not getting the STB / DVR is due a discount.



dlfl said:


> My bundle doesn't include a STB. How would anyone know what all the bundle packages are so they could even tell if this is fair?


If your bundle does not include an STB or DVR, then you are getting the discount, because anyone who does not have their own receiver gets hit with an STB / DVR fee that you do not.



dlfl said:


> If the STB or DVR is "free" as part of a bundle, do the FCC regs force the Cable Co. to define an effective monthly rental for them?


Yes. It is equal to the highest cost of an STB on any service that does not bundle the STB, or the cost of an extra STB for their bundles.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> I suspect the cable cos have many ways to get around this. ....





lrhorer said:


> Well, not "many". The only way is if the STB is offered free with all packages.


I think they hide what they're doing in a confusion of bundles and promotional offers, the details of which are opaque to consumers, or would require laborious detective work to uncover.


dlfl said:


> I'll be amazed if a Time Warner customer has actually got one. My bundle doesn't include a STB. How would anyone know what all the bundle packages are so they could even tell if this is fair?





lrhorer said:


> If your bundle does not include an STB or DVR, then you are getting the discount, because anyone who does not have their own receiver gets hit with an STB / DVR fee that you do not.





dlfl said:


> If the STB or DVR is "free" as part of a bundle, do the FCC regs force
> the Cable Co. to define an effective monthly rental for them?





lrhorer said:


> Yes. It is equal to the highest cost of an STB on any service that does not bundle the STB, or the cost of an extra STB for their bundles.


I think that's too simplistic compared to reality. My son lives just two miles from me and has what appears to be the same bundle as mine (same channels, same internet) but he gets an 8300 DVR free for a year as part of a promotional offer (or whatever the appropriate name is). His total monthly bill is within one dollar of mine. This probably doesn't violate the FCC regs (TWC has lots of crafty lawyers) but it illustrates how they can easily work around the intent of the regs.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dlfl said:


> I think they hide what they're doing in a confusion of bundles and promotional offers, the details of which are opaque to consumers, or would require laborious detective work to uncover.


Their rate for a STB, however, is clearly posted. It's $4.95 a month, IIRC. The DVRs are $9.95, IIRC.



dlfl said:


> I think that's too simplistic compared to reality. My son lives just two miles from me and has what appears to be the same bundle as mine (same channels, same internet) but he gets an 8300 DVR free for a year as part of a promotional offer (or whatever the appropriate name is).


It does not matter what the promotional offer might be. If that bundle includes a receiver as part of the package, anyone who declines the receiver with that bundle, discounted or not, is due the FCC mandated discount. In the case of the bundled DVR, that should be $9.95. In the case of a bundled STB, it would be $4.95



dlfl said:


> His total monthly bill is within one dollar of mine. This probably doesn't violate the FCC regs (TWC has lots of crafty lawyers) but it illustrates how they can easily work around the intent of the regs.


No, it just means he is getting a promotional deal. If you have the same bundle, and declined to take the bundled receiver, then you are due a discount. If the plan you have does not include a bundled receiver, then any customer who subscribes to that plan will be charged extra for any receivers he leases, while you are not.

You are forgetting something, here. Any attempt to reduce or eradicate discounts to TiVo and other 3rd party device owners, who represent less than 1% of their subscriber base, will negatively impact the revenue from those not using their own device, and that is something they cannot afford. Add to this the fact they don't make any money directly on the STBs and DVRs, and they aren't going to fiddle with the balance sheets to discommode a handful of subs. Most of their packages don't include an STB or DVR, anyway, so most of their packages don't qualify for the discount in the first place.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> ......I think that's too simplistic compared to reality. My son lives just two miles from me and has what appears to be the same bundle as mine (same channels, same internet) but he gets an 8300 DVR free for a year as part of a promotional offer (or whatever the appropriate name is). His total monthly bill is within one dollar of mine. This probably doesn't violate the FCC regs (TWC has lots of crafty lawyers) but it illustrates how they can easily work around the intent of the regs.





lrhorer said:


> ......No, it just means he is getting a promotional deal. If you have the same bundle, and declined to take the bundled receiver, then you are due a discount. If the plan you have does not include a bundled receiver, then any customer who subscribes to that plan will be charged extra for any receivers he leases, while you are not.
> .........


Nah. I think if my son had a TiVo the promotional offer would have morphed into one that did not include the "free" DVR, but was identical otherwise. There is no practical way for the consumer to know and compare all the bundles and promotions they offer so as to pin them down on BYOB. Perhaps the FCC could do it but they don't have the horsepower for it.

If someone has actually received this discount from TWC, I'm still waiting to hear about it.


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

OP here. Thanks everyone for all the thoughts.

Yeah, I didn't really think that I would get a device discount as I'm pretty sure Mediacom never bundles hardware with any packages.

I guess regarding the package I'll just have to call and ask about programming packages and see if they ever say anything about requring one of their STBs to get it. Then if they do and won't budge, I'll file a complaint with the FCC using that link that someone provided in an earlier reply in this thread (thanks for that link!).

Regarding dlfl's situation, the only other factor I can think of there is, he mentions that his son's package with the free STB is specifically a "promotional offer", and thus not a standard package. My question would be, why is it promotional? Is his son a new subscriber? Or some other scenario that qualified him for the "promotion" that dlfl himself doesn't qualify for? If so, that is an entirely different situation and I'd agree that dlfl himself wouldn't get anything out of that if he didn't qualify for the "promotion" to begin with. BUT, for example if it's a promotion for being a new subscriber, I WOULD expect that another new subscriber coming in and being offered the same package without mentioning up front that they have a Tivo, would then be able to say that they have a Tivo and would be entitled to receive the package AND the discount for not taking the STB.

Basically, I'm saying the details on why the son has this "promotional" package are an important factor that has not been shared and thus no conclusion can be drawn yet.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Zaphod said:


> Yeah, I didn't really think that I would get a device discount as I'm pretty sure Mediacom never bundles hardware with any packages.


You still pay less with a TiVo + CableCard than someone who gets the same package with a STB + CableCard...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Zaphod said:


> ..........Regarding dlfl's situation, the only other factor I can think of there is, he mentions that his son's package with the free STB is specifically a "promotional offer", and thus not a standard package. My question would be, why is it promotional? Is his son a new subscriber? Or some other scenario that qualified him for the "promotion" that dlfl himself doesn't qualify for? If so, that is an entirely different situation and I'd agree that dlfl himself wouldn't get anything out of that if he didn't qualify for the "promotion" to begin with. BUT, for example if it's a promotion for being a new subscriber, I WOULD expect that another new subscriber coming in and being offered the same package without mentioning up front that they have a Tivo, would then be able to say that they have a Tivo and would be entitled to receive the package AND the discount for not taking the STB.
> 
> Basically, I'm saying the details on why the son has this "promotional" package are an important factor that has not been shared and thus no conclusion can be drawn yet.


My son indeed was a new subscriber. And yes it would seem if the customer was clever enough not to mention they had a TiVo until after getting the deal, they should be able to do what you say. I suspect the typical Tivo owner (who is not reading this thread) would be likely to have mentioned they had a TiVo piror to getting the offer, because they would want to be reassured by the cable co that Tivo was supported and how much cable cards cost, etc.

I repeat: If anyone has received a BYOB discount from TWC, please post!


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## Thos19 (Dec 31, 2002)

The only beef I have with Verizon FIOS is that their CC rental fees are so high: $3.99 each/month, while Comcast is only $1.50 for the first and and the second free.

Is it cost effective to simply buy a CC (or in my case 2; I have a Series 3)? Does FIOS even let you register a CC not provided by them? Has anyone here successfully done this?

Thos.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Comcast is not $1.50 for the first and the second free - it's supposed to be free for the first and the regular outlet fee (currently $8.50 - $8.95) for additional cards, minus the $2.50 - $2.99 card credit. Or $6 net for each extra card, which is even higher than FIOS and a ripoff IMO.

Only *some* areas get lucky and get the old 'extra card in a Tivo' $1.50 fee for each extra card.


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## Thos19 (Dec 31, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Comcast is not $1.50 for the first and the second free - it's supposed to be free for the first and the regular outlet fee (currently $8.50 - $8.95) for additional cards, minus the $2.50 - $2.99 card credit. Or $6 net for each extra card.
> 
> Only *some* areas get lucky and get the old 'extra card in a Tivo' $1.50 fee for each extra cards.


Sorry, that's what I had with Comcast before switching to Fios. I must have been one of the "lucky" ones.

Thos.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Comcast is not $1.50 for the first and the second free - it's supposed to be free for the first and the regular outlet fee (currently $8.50 - $8.95) for additional cards, minus the $2.50 - $2.99 card credit. Or $6 net for each extra card, which is even higher than FIOS and a ripoff IMO.
> 
> Only *some* areas get lucky and get the old 'extra card in a Tivo' $1.50 fee for each extra card.


Based on what I have read here and in other threads, Comcast charges vary from area to area. Sometimes, even from person-to-person in the same area.

I am also in the Atlanta area. I have the "Digital Starter" package which includes one digital outlet. I have a STB and two digital TiVos and have two additional "Digital Service" fees of $8.50/mo and two $2.50/mo credits for "Customer Owned Equipment". Any digital outlet, whether included or additional includes an STB or one CableCARD. I would only incur a specific charge for a CableCARD if I had two cards installed in the same device - like say a TiVo 3 OLED.

I do agree that the charges are a ripoff and that we have regressed to the original model where they are charging for every outlet.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> Based on what I have read here and in other threads, Comcast charges vary from area to area. Sometimes, even from person-to-person in the same area.


Would you believe that some people (cough cough) pay less for two sets than they would for one, since the newly-applied BYO discounts are greater than their second outlet fee?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

pdhenry said:


> Would you believe that some people (cough cough) pay less for two sets than they would for one, since the newly-applied BYO discounts are greater than their second outlet fee?


Yep. As I've said before, Comcast seems to be more of a loose confederation of locally controlled companies rather than a centrally controlled corporation.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

pdhenry said:


> Would you believe that some people (cough cough) pay less for two sets than they would for one, since the newly-applied BYO discounts are greater than their second outlet fee?


If you're lucky enough to get the $1.50 card price, sure. Then they give you the new $2.50 credit on top of that, so you net $1 a month for every extra card you get.

But they're not doing it right according to their own policy, so you are lucky to be in that area.


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## jmelan (Dec 3, 2011)

Time Warner is still both refusing to offer a discount (BYOB) on existing packages and refusing to discount new packages for cablecard owners in my area as of 12/2 (it is technically impossible for customer service to apply a discount for unused HD DVRs).

The cost of an HD DVR + DVR service is clearly stated on the Time Warner website as $20.48 per month per box in my area. I am paying $40.96 + tax per month for 2 boxes I do not want to use.

My plan includes 2 boxes that are not part of the package price. When i tried to return one of the boxes, I was told my rate would go UP because I no longer met the requirements for the package price (so the HD DVR is sitting in my closet).

Furthermore, when calling customer support last week and requesting an upgrade to cablecard service, I was told that self-installation was not allowed. I was able to get a self-install kit after going to the local store.

FCC complaint has been filed.


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

jmelan said:


> The cost of an HD DVR + DVR service is clearly stated on the Time Warner website as $20.48 per month per box in my area. I am paying $40.96 + tax per month for 2 boxes I do not want to use.
> 
> My plan includes 2 boxes that are not part of the package price. When i tried to return one of the boxes, I was told my rate would go UP because I no longer met the requirements for the package price (so the HD DVR is sitting in my closet).


OP here. Well, since you say you ARE paying separate for the DVR's, it's NOT part of the package price, I would say that you, like me, won't get a discount on the package price for having your own equipment.

But your 2nd part about trying to return their boxes and them telling you that you are no longer eligible for that package then does sound like exactly what happened to me when I first got my TivoHD and turned in my Mediacom DVR. And I would agree, they shouldn't be able to do that, and that's really where the meat of my original post is. The FCC rules don't explicitly state that situation.

But seriously, you'd rather pay an extra $40/month for 2 DVR's you don't use? Would the programming cost go up that much that it would still cost you more than that in extra programming costs to give them up? Even in that case, did you think about maybe trying give only one of them up? If you keep only one, I would think you still qualify for the programming package. Or do they say something having to have their box on every TV line in the house? Oh, another option, and I did do this for a short time initially after I got my TivoHD, swap the DVR's that you don't use anyway down to just normal non-DVR STBs that should be much cheaper in the monthly costs.

In my case, in the end I told Mediacom to get stuffed (not in those words of course) and just dropped HBO that I didn't watch that much anyway so my programming costs went back to what I was paying before, I just didn't get HBO in the package.

On a side note, please post back here if anything comes of your FCC complaint, expecially in regards to them trying to raise your programming cost if you don't keep their STBs.


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## jmelan (Dec 3, 2011)

Time Warner told me I am not eligible for ANY packages at all because they ALL include some time of DVR or cable box _service_ and you MUST have a cable box/DVR otherwise they must remove the_ service_ from the plan and the package gets removed at the same time (customer service is unable to get around it).

Therefore, if I take my DVRs out of the closet and return them I lose all of my package discounts which are more than $40


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

jmelan said:


> Time Warner told me I am not eligible for ANY packages at all because they ALL include some time of DVR or cable box _service_ and you MUST have a cable box/DVR otherwise they must remove the_ service_ from the plan and the package gets removed at the same time (customer service is unable to get around it).
> 
> Therefore, if I take my DVRs out of the closet and return them I lose all of my package discounts which are more than $40


So your package includes the dvr's in a discounted price. If that the case Time Warner is correct. With out the dvr the price would go to it normal price. The discounted price is for using their dvr not Tivo's.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

If there's a non-DVR STB package (sounds like there is) my understanding is that the FCC requires TW to rent the CableCard for a lower monthly fee than the STB+CableCard, either through a BYO discount or separate pricing for the STB and CC. That's the whole reason Comcast is giving a discount - because the FCC requires it. I expect TW will get in line once enough people file complaints.


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## jmelan (Dec 3, 2011)

pdhenry said:


> If there's a non-DVR STB package (sounds like there is) my understanding is that the FCC requires TW to rent the CableCard for a lower monthly fee than the STB+CableCard, either through a BYO discount or separate pricing for the STB and CC. That's the whole reason Comcast is giving a discount - because the FCC requires it. I expect TW will get in line once enough people file complaints.


exactly correct, more people need to file complaints against Time Warner, Comcast if following the correct guidelines

"Your operator must give you a discount on *any packages that include the price of a set-top box *if you choose to use your own CableCARD-enabled device."

They do have a BYOB application, but so far everyone has either received no response or have been told they are not eligible with no explanation.


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## jmelan (Dec 3, 2011)

caddyroger said:


> So your package includes the dvr's in a discounted price. If that the case Time Warner is correct. With out the dvr the price would go to it normal price. The discounted price is for using their dvr not Tivo's.


they would still have to subtract the discounted price of the DVRs based on the FCC guidelines, which would need based on the following:



> ( 2 ) For any bundled offer combining service and an operator-supplied
> navigation device into a single fee, including any bundled offer
> providing a discount for the purchase of multiple services, such
> provider shall make such offer available without discrimination to any
> ...


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

jmelan said:


> Time Warner told me I am not eligible for ANY packages at all because they ALL include some time of DVR or cable box _service_ and you MUST have a cable box/DVR otherwise they must remove the_ service_ from the plan and the package gets removed at the same time (customer service is unable to get around it).
> 
> Therefore, if I take my DVRs out of the closet and return them I lose all of my package discounts which are more than $40


Yeah, definitely pursue your FCC complaint, and please do post back here if it makes any progress.

But I'd still question if you need to have BOTH DVR's. If you return only one, you still have one, so wouldn't you still qualify for the discounted package?


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## jmelan (Dec 3, 2011)

nope

it turns out when I picked up the second DVR I was changed into a different bundle that includes 2 DVR service fees - of course I did not agree to this in any way whatsoever. i specifically asked if I could bring the second box back if I decide not to use it later and was told yes, of course. the most ridiculous part is that the boxes are actually separate from the bundle, but the bundle includes the "DVR service" which requires me to keep both DVRs or lose the package.

now this would all be fine, except the old 1 DVR bundle (that includes showtime, variety, sports, etc) does not exist in the same form anymore, and the new variation is way more expensive, so that returning one box causes an increase in my bill of $20. I can't even say just take the box I don't care about the DVR charge on my bill - they still want to change plans on me and increase the bill. the box has to go back to my house so my bill doesn't increase.

so, congrats to all the Time Warner customers with old slow DVRs, my brand new fast Samsung HD DVR is sitting in my closet completely unused.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

jmelan said:


> Time Warner told me I am not eligible for ANY packages at all because they ALL include some time of DVR or cable box _service_ and you MUST have a cable box/DVR otherwise they must remove the_ service_ from the plan and the package gets removed at the same time (customer service is unable to get around it).
> 
> Therefore, if I take my DVRs out of the closet and return them I lose all of my package discounts which are more than $40


That is in violation of the FCC rules, but it sounds like it is backwards. Certainly here in San Antonio, almost none of the packages have a DVR bundled with them. What is your city and what plan do you have?


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## jmelan (Dec 3, 2011)

southern california, current plan is listed as "build your own bundle", includes lots of stuff, looks like customer service (who has always been very nice) was able to just put whatever they wanted in there. To be honest, i doubt that the customer service person would have known about the later issues with returning the box - since it is outside of the bundle price it is completely absurd that I could not return them. In fact, several customer service agents and told me they could do it and then only later realized they could not when trying to remove the boxes from my account.

I would be more than happy if time warner would just let me return the DVRs that are not even part of the bundle.

Looking at the new customer packages it seems that there are some very low level packages that do not include a DVR, but I was told I did not qualify for these as a current customer (probably wrong). Consistent with the BS I have been told, all packages that include a DVR service force you to choose a DVR. It is IMPOSSIBLE to sign up for one and choose no box - and these include virtually all packages with a significant discount on cable plus internet.


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## jmelan (Dec 3, 2011)

here you go - unable to sign up for any of these and not get a DVR (which you HAVE to pay for outside of the bundle if it says service instead of box)


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

I have Comcast in Michigan.
I have 5 cable cards and 1 Motorola DVR (DCH3416).
Cablecards are allocated accordingly:
Sharp LC45GX6U TV - 1 cc 
Tivo S3 - 2 cc's each
I pay $1.50 for all of the 5 cards, plus an extra outlet fee ~$8.95, and I think another $8.95 for the DVR. I also get the BYO discount. I cannot reacall the BYO discount - a couple bucks I think.

I also have another Tivo - Premiere, another Sharp, and a HDHomeRun 6CC for which I need 4 more cablecards, but havent gone down the self install route yet. Every time I had to have tech's come out for cablecards, it was extremely painfull and not very successfull, if they even bothered to show up on the scheduled appointment date. So I really hope and pray the self install will be smooth and easy this time, several years later?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Rather unfortunate that they have implemented the HDHomeRun 6CC as two separate 3-tuner units rather than one 6-tuner unit, thus requiring two CableCARDs.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Agreed, my guess is that it had something to do with reducing costs because internally they just pair two 3-tuner units together.


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## xberk (Dec 3, 2011)

jmelan said:


> here you go - unable to sign up for any of these and not get a DVR (which you HAVE to pay for outside of the bundle if it says service instead of box)


What did you wind up doing, if anything? I use Time Warner SoCal for my internet connection. I think I want to switch (from Directv) to TWC for TV and one phone. I just bought two TIVO Premiere's so do I have choice (we love our old Series 2 Tivos but want to switch to HD) .. if I buy lifetime on the Premieres, isn't that like a very long contract for cable?

A bundle with all services should get me the best pricing .. TWC offered a package that didn't include any DVR. $2 per cable card. But to get this I had to go into one of their local offices. Over the phone is not the way to go. Too confusing and I generally cannot understand what they are saying -- they go too fast for me. In the office they put together a deal ala carte and then found a bundle that it could fit into somehow .. I've yet to sign up. I'll go back to the office and see what today's deal is like ..

The problem is they will not commit to anything in writing BEFORE you buy it unless it is a published offer - and even those offers are not really complete. 
It's hard to evaluate what you are actually going to be charged and what you will actual get. I'm sort of attached to that way of doing business. Quaint. I know. I think most people just surrender and go for it, not being very sure of what the final cost and services will turn out to be -- and with what options they have for the future.

Ahhhhh...for the simpler days when we were happy with 3 channels.


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## jmelan (Dec 3, 2011)

be careful of the packages in the store - most likely it is just them assembling the full cost packages together (but maybe not). the whole home dvr packages give a much better discount, but they can not give them to you without a dvr (the billing system will not permit it) and they will not offer a BYOB discount (does not exist in the billing system).

depending on exactly what you need, it may still be cheaper to get a whole home DVR package and then stick it in a closet until the promotional rate expires (which it will).

in my case, i got rid of some services i did not really need that were part of a prior promotional package and was able to lower my monthly rate considerably. TWC did NOT allow me to return my boxes under my current package or apply a discount, so they are still far from being in compliance with the FCC mandate.

I couldn't even get the cablecard packages listed on the recent rate increase sheet


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## MacGuruTX (Sep 20, 2006)

Are you in S.D?

I just went through this

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8903042#post8903042



jmelan said:


> southern california, current plan is listed as "build your own bundle", includes lots of stuff, looks like customer service (who has always been very nice) was able to just put whatever they wanted in there. To be honest, i doubt that the customer service person would have known about the later issues with returning the box - since it is outside of the bundle price it is completely absurd that I could not return them. In fact, several customer service agents and told me they could do it and then only later realized they could not when trying to remove the boxes from my account.
> 
> I would be more than happy if time warner would just let me return the DVRs that are not even part of the bundle.
> 
> Looking at the new customer packages it seems that there are some very low level packages that do not include a DVR, but I was told I did not qualify for these as a current customer (probably wrong). Consistent with the BS I have been told, all packages that include a DVR service force you to choose a DVR. It is IMPOSSIBLE to sign up for one and choose no box - and these include virtually all packages with a significant discount on cable plus internet.


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

slowbiscuit said:


> Agreed, my guess is that it had something to do with reducing costs because internally they just pair two 3-tuner units together.


Nope-Cablelabs "certification" hassles go away when they used 2 3-tuner units. Only 1 trip throuogh Cablelabs tortured process instead of 3, which saved months off the time to market for them.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

qz3fwd said:


> Nope-Cablelabs "certification" hassles go away when they used 2 3-tuner units. Only 1 trip throuogh Cablelabs tortured process instead of 3, which saved months off the time to market for them.


That makes no sense at all. Why would a 6-tuner unit require 3 trips through the process?


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

I may have missed this being answered earlier in the thread, but in terms of the packages..

All MSOs are required to offer all of the same linear channels (read: non on-demand) to CableCard subscribers as are offered to subscribers using MSO-provided set top boxes. There should be no difference as to the availability of channels or packages between equipment. This is, however, dependent on your CableCard equipment supporting a Tuning Adapter, if required (but since we're talking about TiVos here that's not a problem)


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

JosephB said:


> I may have missed this being answered earlier in the thread, but in terms of the packages..
> 
> All MSOs are required to offer all of the same linear channels (read: non on-demand) to CableCard subscribers as are offered to subscribers using MSO-provided set top boxes. There should be no difference as to the availability of channels or packages between equipment. This is, however, dependent on your CableCard equipment supporting a Tuning Adapter, if required (but since we're talking about TiVos here that's not a problem)


No, this was never officially answered anywhere in this thread yet. Everyone presumes that this is the case, no official word. A few people have filed complaints with the FCC about it but none have posted back if they've gotten any results from those complaints yet.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

Zaphod said:


> No, this was never officially answered anywhere in this thread yet. Everyone presumes that this is the case, no official word. A few people have filed complaints with the FCC about it but none have posted back if they've gotten any results from those complaints yet.


No, this is not a presumption. This is directly from the FCC, it is the law that they MUST provide all linear channels to CableCard subscribers:

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights



> Receive all linear channels (channels other than on-demand) in your subscription package. This includes premium channels and specialty channels. For some channels delivered using a technique called switched digital video, you may need a second device called a tuning adapter. This device is typically provided at no additional charge to CableCARD customers. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(4). CableCARD-ready devices currently cannot receive your cable operators Video on Demand services.


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

JosephB said:


> No, this is not a presumption. This is directly from the FCC, it is the law that they MUST provide all linear channels to CableCard subscribers:
> 
> http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights
> 
> ...


Yes, I've read that web page many times. That's not what this thread is about (I'm the original poster). That rule makes no mention of programming "packages", just that all channels must be available.

There is also this statement on that web site:



> Your operator must give you a discount on any packages that include the price of a set-top box if you choose to use your own CableCARD-enabled device.


What this thread is about, and what this FCC web page does not explicitly make clear, is "packaging" of channels into bundles when the cost of the set-top box is NOT included in the programming package bundle.

What my cable company (mine is Mediacom in Iowa, and apparently a few others based on posts in this thread) does is that they NEVER bundle the COST of the set-top box in the cost of a programming package (the set-top box rental is always a separate cost line item on the monthly bill), but they are telling me that I can't get certain programming packages if I don't have THEIR set-top box.

I CAN get all the channels, so they are fulfulling that part of the rules, I just have to pay for them ala carte.

And their set-top box is NOT bundled in the cost of the programming package, so that rule doesn't apply (I don't expect any discount for not having their STB since their STB is not actually part of any package).

There's nothing I see on that FCC rules web page that says anything about the cable company being required to offer the same programming packages to customers who don't have set-top boxes when the set-top box is NOT bundled as part of the package.

I presume the spirit of the rules intend for this to be required but that web page doesn't explicitly say it.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

Zaphod said:


> Yes, I've read that web page many times. That's not what this thread is about (I'm the original poster). That rule makes no mention of programming "packages", just that all channels must be available.
> 
> There is also this statement on that web site:
> 
> ...


The spirit (and I'm pretty sure at some point the letter) of the rules is to ensure that there is no discrimination over those who bring retail cable card devices (tivos) vs. those who take the MSO provided set top box.


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## MacGuruTX (Sep 20, 2006)

Ok, so I just filed the following complaint with the FCC reference number 12-C00362091. Will see if I actually get any kind of response...



> FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5) and FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5)(C)
> 
> Time Warner will not maintain cable bundle package rates if you use a cable card.
> For example, there is a "mega-charged" package. This package "includes" a DVR. If you have cable cards on your account and turn in the DVR, then they split the bundle package and force you to a la carte pricing.
> ...


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## Zaphod (Feb 18, 2003)

MacGuruTX said:


> Ok, so I just filed the following complaint with the FCC reference number 12-C00362091. Will see if I actually get any kind of response...


Please do post back any results, either if you hear from the FCC or if Time Warner changes anything as a result of the complaint.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

I'm thinking that at some point, barring some kind of improvement, we should compile a list of documented issues and file them as a comment against the CableCard/AllVid proceedings. A list of prior document complaints would add weight to such a filing.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I have one for Comcast in my thread here, specifically that I believe that their additional outlet fees (with card credits) do not comply with the new rules. I have also filed an FCC complaint about it and will report back if I hear anything.


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## arizon (Apr 16, 2010)

I would like to see a forum dedicated to Cable Cards regardless of Cable Provider and Tivo Series to discuss topics about them. For example, I have tried to find information in the forums about buying my own cable cards instead of forking over $ every month to rent one.

Note: I could not find any information in the FAQ section on how to go about doing that or how to contact the site moderator with forum topic suggestion.

--arizon


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

JosephB said:


> No, this is not a presumption. This is directly from the FCC, it is the law that they MUST provide all linear channels to CableCard subscribers:
> 
> http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights


FWIW, just to be accurate. It is not a LAW. It is a rule. The FCC has mandated certain rules of which this belongs to a set. No legislation was passed (or even reviewed to be honest). It is a technical but important distinction.

The integration ban was passed by congress and is a law. This is a rule. Both are legally binding for all practical purposes.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

What Warner Cable is doing may also be a violation of F*T*C regulations.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

wmhjr said:


> FWIW, just to be accurate. It is not a LAW. It is a rule. The FCC has mandated certain rules of which this belongs to a set. No legislation was passed (or even reviewed to be honest). It is a technical but important distinction.
> 
> The integration ban was passed by congress and is a law. This is a rule. Both are legally binding for all practical purposes.


FCC Rules have the effect of law. I'm not a lawyer and this isn't a courtroom so I apologize that I didn't parse my language as such.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

wmhjr said:


> FWIW, just to be accurate. It is not a LAW. It is a rule. The FCC has mandated certain rules of which this belongs to a set. No legislation was passed (or even reviewed to be honest). It is a technical but important distinction.
> 
> The integration ban was passed by congress and is a law. This is a rule. Both are legally binding for all practical purposes.


The integration ban isn't a law, either. These are all FCC rules intended to implement Section 304 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 which calls for competitive availability of commercial navigation devices. Rule 76.1204 is the integration ban. These new CableCARD rules are in 76.1205.

http://louise.hallikainen.org/FCC/FccRules/2012/76/1204/


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## Speed Daemon (Jan 15, 2012)

These days it's far less important whether it's a law, rule or tariff. The thing to watch is whether there's a civil or criminal penalty, or both. Of course in the end the only party that can be harmed by either penalty is the average individual. Cable companies can't be jailed, so criminal penalties bounce right off them. And civil fines that would leave most people destitute, homeless and unemployable wouldn't put a dent in the cable company's corporate slush fund.

As usual, might makes right. Knowing your rights is one thing. Having any real power to compel others or empower yourself to enforce those rights is squarely in the "don't hold your breath" category. You might as well be Goober running around shouting "citizen's arr_a_st, citizen's arr_a_st!"


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## alarson83 (Oct 27, 2009)

Zaphod, another iowa mediacom customer here. Seems like this is worth adding. The music channels, mediacom has for some unknown reason, tied to their digital gateway (which should only be needed for the guide and VOD on the regular cable boxes). 

Despite having no need for a digital gateway (as that's what mediacom's service provides), and despite their channel lineups online mentioning no requirements for those music channels, i was informed i would not be able to get those channels without paying an additional $4\month that my boxes dont need (and im not even sure they can have added to them)


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## pileosnafu (Jul 23, 2005)

Did anyone that filed an FCC complaint get anywhere? 

I work for a cell phone company and I know they (and the BBB) give us about 10 days to resolve a claim. I sent a letter to the Office of the President of BHN for Central Florida today (7 pages), and got a basic I got your letter and am researching it and will touch base with you Saturday. Using the way the company I work for operates based on what was stated and mentioned in my letter it would be reviewed by a few people, before an answer was given. 

I'm tired of paying less to have their box, and not getting a credit for the box.


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## pileosnafu (Jul 23, 2005)

Just got a call from the BHN rep assigned to my account. Seems they will have to give me a box and provide a credit each month as they don't have any type of promos when the end user doesn't have their box. I'll post more later


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