# TiVo is coming to your iPod, PSP



## jmoak

> _from The Startribune.com_http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/5738401.html
> SAN JOSE, CALIF. - TiVo Inc. is expanding its video recording service so users will be able to transfer recorded TV shows onto Apple Computer's iPods or Sony's PlayStation Portable -- the latest move to make TV available for viewing anywhere.


...


----------



## peteypete

How did the startribune get this scoop? Any other confirmations?


----------



## jmoak

peteypete said:


> How did the startribune get this scoop? Any other confirmations?





> _from The LATimes.com_
> *TiVo to Expand Portable Features*
> It is expected to allow users to transfer TV programs to iPods and PlayStations. The service could be available early next year.





> _from Seattlepi.com_
> Consumers would need certain video encoding software on their computers, provided by TiVo or bought elsewhere for about $15 to $30 in stores.


At least it's cheap, eh?


----------



## peteypete

Excellent! I may have to get one of those video ipods now. I heard somewhere that people were hacking Nanos to be able to play video. Anybody hear about that. 

Maybe this development will finally make mac users happy!


----------



## mattman

I have a video iPod, and this would make me very happy to have a onestep process for putting video from my TiVo on my iPod.

(at least I'm hoping that's what it will be)

Matt


----------



## jmoak

mattman said:


> I have a video iPod, and this would make me very happy to have a onestep process for putting video from my TiVo on my iPod.
> 
> (at least I'm hoping that's what it will be)
> 
> Matt





> _from the latimes story_
> TiVo subscribers will need to purchase special software to tap the features, said Jim Denney, TiVo's vice president of product marketing. The TiVo box would need to be connected to a home network and the program would first have to be transferred to a PC.


Download to your pc, then transfer to a ipod or a psp. Twostep process?

(gotta strap on the old ipod/psp drm before transfer to a ipod/psp)


----------



## TiVoPony

'Tis true, 'tis true...

Those pesky reporters, jumping the gun again.

Pony


----------



## ZeoTiVo

from star tribune article said:


> With its introduction in January of TiVoToGo, the digital video recording pioneer gave its broadband Series2 subscribers the ability to transfer recorded shows to Windows-based PCs and laptops as well as portable media players. But the service was available only to Microsoft-compatible devices. Now, by adding support for the MPEG-4 video format, TiVo hopes to capitalize on the popularity of iPods and PSPs.


MPEG-4 ? WTF?


----------



## TiVoPony

jmoak said:


> Download to your pc, then transfer to a ipod or a psp. Twostep process?
> 
> (gotta strap on the old ipod/psp drm before transfer to a ipod/psp)


Two step? We're not in Texas, are we? 

More details to come...

Pony


----------



## jmoak

ZeoTiVo said:


> MPEG-4 ? WTF?


hehehe...
I saw the light bulb over your head come on from way over here!


----------



## burnsy

According to the Wall Street Journal...

----------------------------

TiVo Plans to Allow Unlimited
TV-Show Downloads to iPods

By NICK WINGFIELD and BROOKS BARNES 
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113253403196102661.html?mod=technology_featured_stories_hs

...

Getting TiVo to work with an iPod isn't as simple as downloading music and videos to Apple's device from iTunes. First, a user's TiVo records a show onto the machine's hard drive. Then, the program is transferred over a home network to a PC, where it is translated into a video format compatible with the iPod. Next, the video must be transferred to the iPod from the PC. The whole process of getting an hour-long show onto an iPod could take more than two hours from the time a TiVo device finishes recording it.

For that reason, TiVo expects its users to set their machines to download shows to their iPods overnight. TiVo says the new software it will begin testing automates the process of synchronizing a TiVo and iPod. For weeks, TiVo users have traded tips over the Internet for getting TiVo shows onto the new iPod, but the process is labor-intensive in most cases. "We're trying to make it easy," says Jim Denney, vice president of product marketing at TiVo.

Mr. Denney says the size of video files will vary depending on the recording quality users select on their TiVos, but he estimates that 2½ hours of video in most cases will eat up about one gigabyte of storage on an iPod, or roughly one-thirtieth of the capacity of Apple's entry-level video iPod.

------------


----------



## gastrof

I like the PSP part. Much more sturdy looking a gadget than an iPod.

Of course, series 1 owners can't make use of this...

Or can we?


----------



## burnsy

Not cool...

-----------------

To help prevent piracy, TiVo says its software will insert an invisible watermark in shows that are formatted for iPods. If such programs show up on Internet file-sharing networks, entertainment companies, working with TiVo, will be able to use the watermark to identify the TiVo user from which it originated.


-----------------


----------



## ZeoTiVo

burnsy said:


> Not cool...
> 
> -----------------
> 
> To help prevent piracy, TiVo says its software will insert an invisible watermark in shows that are formatted for iPods. If such programs show up on Internet file-sharing networks, entertainment companies, working with TiVo, will be able to use the watermark to identify the TiVo user from which it originated.
> 
> -----------------


I would rather a watermark and the ability to officially move video around for my own fair use then the current DRM and no official way to do things.

A watermark only hurts those that would put the show out for illegal use beyond their own personal fair use.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

jmoak said:


> hehehe...
> I saw the light bulb over your head come on from way over here!


well it is just MPEG-4 outside the TiVo box for now. Be nice when we can stream/copy MPEG-4 back to the box :up:


----------



## jmoak

burnsy said:


> Not cool...


If you can transfer the video to your computer, edit it to your hearts content, stick it on your harddrive and watch it anytime you want, make a dvd out of it AND transfer and watch it on quite a few portable devices (now including the most popular ones)...

What makes it "uncool"?


----------



## jmoak

ZeoTiVo said:


> well it is just MPEG-4 outside the TiVo box for now. Be nice when we can stream/copy MPEG-4 back to the box :up:


One of those articles said something about "in the background" conversion of Tivo's mpeg2 to mpeg4, why not the other way around for 'net content?


----------



## Arcady

I can already transfer video from my DirecTiVo to my video iPod with a single click. Why would I pay somebody for this?


----------



## jmoak

Arcady said:


> I can already transfer video from my DirecTiVo to my video iPod with a single click. Why would I pay somebody for this?


Bless your heart, YOU don't have to!

But dem other folks, deay ain't as sharp as you be. Dis stuff here is fo dem regulr peoples. Now deay git to play jes lik de smrt fellers do!

YeeHaw!


well, not JUST like you do, but you get my drift!


----------



## rog

burnsy said:


> Not cool...
> 
> -----------------
> 
> To help prevent piracy, TiVo says its software will insert an invisible watermark in shows that are formatted for iPods. If such programs show up on Internet file-sharing networks, entertainment companies, working with TiVo, will be able to use the watermark to identify the TiVo user from which it originated.





ZeoTiVo said:


> I would rather a watermark and the ability to officially move video around for my own fair use then the current DRM and no official way to do things.
> 
> A watermark only hurts those that would put the show out for illegal use beyond their own personal fair use.


What Zeo said. The only reason an invisible watermark is bad is if you have intentions of illegally distributing the content from your TiVo to a wide audience.

I can't think of any sceanario where legitamate fair use is impacted by an invisible watermark.

As long as you keep the files to yourself (and maybe your family and friends), an invisible watermark is not going to cause you any trouble.

Why is that so uncool? It's a hell of a lot better than draconian DRM technologies... think Sony's recent botched attempts...


----------



## TiVoPony

Just to clarify...

There will be a beta for this. But it's not starting today...the beta will start up sometime next month. There's no start date to share yet, and no amount of begging or bribing will get you into that beta. Of course you can still try! But it won't work. 

Pony


----------



## peteypete

Ok, it would be super cool if you could just plug the ipod into the usb port of the tivo and then download using the remote control.


----------



## emfraser

peteypete said:


> Maybe this development will finally make mac users happy!


Do we even know if there will be Mac support for this? Probably not, given Tivo's track record...


----------



## Kenny Banyan

ZeoTiVo said:


> A watermark only hurts those that would put the show out for illegal use beyond their own personal fair use.


Well then, hope you enjoy that RFID tag in your passport and the hidden watermark from your color printer!

I hope the police do not find criminals with your stolen iPod, track it back to you, and accuse you of a crime you did not commit, just because you decided to give up your privacy to TiVo.


----------



## Kenny Banyan

TiVo to charge for this software according to the WSJ...


----------



## cptodd

I have not been one to complain about the lack of Mac HMO support but this will truly suck if folks with Macs can't take advantage of this!


----------



## GeeCee

Kenny Banyan said:


> TiVo to charge for this software according to the WSJ...


I was all excited until I saw this.

:down: :down: :down:

Then again, why would they charge for this and not Tivo Desktop?


----------



## Arcady

Why would anyone want to share a 320x240 file designed for a video iPod, when you can download HDTV-quality stuff anyway? As usual, DRM just serves to keep technology difficult to use for everyday users.


----------



## schalliol

$15 or $30 one-time fee makes this easily worth it. Jeez folks, that's a small price to pay for functionality you didn't ever expect when you bought your TiVo....Hopefully TiVoToGo will come to Mac with this, would be a reasonable time to do it. Also, I like the watermark idea, as long as they let people know about it. It can encourage people to not do illegal things with it while giving the normal folks new ways to use the content.


----------



## bigjohn

peteypete said:


> Maybe this development will finally make mac users happy!


yeah, no sweat.
just download the video to my PC via TiVoToGo and then transfer it to my Mac.

something wrong there, oh yeah, tivotogo doesn't even work for the mac in the first place


----------



## Ian

Hi Pony...

This is fantastic news!

I'm a long-time TiVo user (wink), and just yesterday, as I was listening to music on my video iPod (wink wink), I was thinking: wouldn't it be great if I had a way to watch my TiVo recordings on this thing? (wink wink wink)

Have a great weekend!

-Ian


----------



## bostlaw

cptodd said:


> I have not been one to complain about the lack of Mac HMO support but this will truly suck if folks with Macs can't take advantage of this!


It would definitely be great if it worked for my Mac and iPod...I'm not gonna hold my breath on this one though...I'd upgrade to a new video iPod for this functionality...but I won't upgrade to a video iPod and also buy a PC to do it...


----------



## rcfuzz

Arcady said:


> I can already transfer video from my DirecTiVo to my video iPod with a single click. Why would I pay somebody for this?


Can you explain how to do this? Does it work with an R10?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Kenny Banyan said:


> Well then, hope you enjoy that RFID tag in your passport and the hidden watermark from your color printer!
> 
> I hope the police do not find criminals with your stolen iPod, track it back to you, and accuse you of a crime you did not commit, just because you decided to give up your privacy to TiVo.


No problem, I just wrap everything in *tin foil* and then the black helicopters can not track it


----------



## ZeoTiVo

GeeCee said:


> I was all excited until I saw this.
> 
> :down: :down: :down:
> 
> Then again, why would they charge for this and not Tivo Desktop?


TiVo desktop has no conversion utility in it and thus no codecs needed. Now they are moving into the world of working with the video on the desktop. This has the possibility of -
:up: making transfer of video faster if they take the muxing work off the low power TiVo processor and onto the PC
:up: make playback easy as TiVo can include that video player we saw a brief glimpse of and tune it to use the one codec they supply in this new desktop
:up: if they go to a watermark method then they may be able to drop the directshow DRM and *bring TTG back to the Mac*
:up: open this up to any portable player out there just by hooking up to a PC via the devices dock.

but codecs do not come cheap and to use legally/commercially must pay a royalty.. If the new software had the above points it would be worth a one time fee to me. This software has the potential to be a huge advance forward


----------



## ZeoTiVo

rcfuzz said:


> Can you explain how to do this? Does it work with an R10?


the poster was being samrt alecky  He means he hacked his DirectTiVo to pull video off. ANd such talk can not be explained in this forum. I can say that to do this with an R10 you need to replace a chip on the unit which involves soldering and obviously voids the warranty


----------



## cwoody222

TiVoPony said:


> 'Tis true, 'tis true...
> 
> Those pesky reporters, jumping the gun again.
> 
> Pony


Pony,

Any comments on Mac support (or lack thereof)?


----------



## morac

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo desktop has no conversion utility in it and thus no codecs needed. Now they are moving into the world of working with the video on the desktop. This has the possibility of -
> :up: making transfer of video faster if they take the muxing work off the low power TiVo processor and onto the PC
> :up: make playback easy as the can put out that viewer and tune it to use that one codec they supply
> :up: if they go to a watermark method then they may be able to drop the directshow DRM and bring TTG back to the Mac
> :up: open this up to any portable player out there just by hooking up to a PC via the devices dock.
> 
> but codecs do not come cheap and to use legally/commercially must pay a royalty.. If the new software had the above points it would be worth a one time fee to me. This software has the potential to be a huge advance forward


I doubt that TiVo will stop DRM protecting the shows as they come out of the TiVo. There are already programs which can automatically download and convert TiVo files to PSP and Ipod compatible formats. I'm assuming the new software from TiVo will work the same way.


----------



## davezatz

Here's the official press release:

TiVo(R) to Bring TV Programming to Apple Video iPod(TM) and PSP(TM) (PlayStation(R) Portable)

TiVo to Provide New Capability for Quick and Easy Transfer of Viewer's Favorite TV Shows to iPod or PSP

ALVISO, Calif., Nov. 21 -- TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ:TIVO) , creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders, today announced an enhancement to its current TiVoToGo feature that will allow TiVo subscribers to easily transfer recorded television programming to their Apple iPod or PSP devices.

The enhancement will include exclusive capabilities such as TiVo auto-sync that will allow subscribers to choose if they want new recordings of their favorite programs easily transferred to their portable devices via their PC. Every morning the devices can be loaded with new programs recorded the night before.

"The increasing popularity of mobile devices for viewing video such as Apple's iPod and the PSP device demonstrate the enormous consumer demand for entertainment on the go," said Tom Rogers, CEO of TiVo. "By enhancing our TiVoToGo(TM) feature, we're making it easy for consumers to enjoy the TV shows they want to watch right from their iPod or PSP -- whenever and wherever they want."

TiVo said it will begin testing the feature in the coming weeks with a select group of TiVo Series2(TM) subscribers who own the Apple Video iPod or PSP devices. TiVo said it plans to make the feature available to its entire standalone TiVo Series2 subscriber base as early as the first quarter of next year.

Last year, TiVo made available to all its Series2 subscribers the TiVoToGo feature. The TiVoToGo feature allows subscribers to transfer TV shows from their DVR to a laptop or PC over their home network. From the PC, subscribers can watch the shows, or transfer them to devices compatible with Microsoft Portable Media Center format. Today's announcement adds support for the Apple iPod and Sony PSP, as well as the ability to specify Season Pass(TM) recordings to conveniently transfer to the portable device via the PC overnight.

Subscribers will need to purchase certain low-cost software to facilitate the transfer of content from the PC to these portable devices. To discourage abuse or unlawful use of this feature, TiVo intends to employ "watermark" technologies on programs transferred to a portable device using the TiVoToGo feature that would enable tracking of the account from which a transferred program originated.


----------



## Aeolius

Agreed. When TiVo supports Mac OS X with a revised Tivo Desktop, TiVoToGo, new Yahoo content, and iPod video transfer....AND adds HDTV support for recording cable TV (oh, and throw in support for adding external firewire hard drives), THEN I'll return my SA 8300 to Time-Warner and sign back up with TiVo. The 8300 is a far-superior DVR, but the user interface....blech!


----------



## zorak303

i'm already constantly transferring to my PSP (1000x better than the video iPod, BTW) and i'll be interested to see how the "official" conversion tool works.


----------



## lajohn27

RE: Stolen iPod

Well.. that should be easy to wiggle out of. 

Example : iPod was stolen on November 13th. Police report dated as of that date. Only shows on the iPod from before that date would be stamped with your invisible watermark.

And in all honesty.. they are not going to be chasing down one or six errant shows on the net, but rather they'll be looking for the people who would just post everything their TIVO records directly to the net in bulk.

I stand by Zeo's comments. Only those with nefarious plans need be upset about the invisible watermark. 

I work at a radio station and we download music directly from a secure website that watermarks every song we download with this radio station's call letters. You want to be sure we are VERY careful with managing those files and making absolute sure none of them find their way outside this building.

Other than that, this is the LEAST onerous DRM technology I can think of .. 

J


----------



## ZeoTiVo

morac said:


> I doubt that TiVo will stop DRM protecting the shows as they come out of the TiVo. There are already programs which can automatically download and convert TiVo files to PSP and Ipod compatible formats. I'm assuming the new software from TiVo will work the same way.


Yep I use what is out there as well to go to my smartphone. My post was about what I thought would be worth paying for and the *hope* they use the watermark instead of the the directshow filter that keeps TTG off of the Mac right now.


----------



## davezatz

ZeoTiVo said:


> My post was about what I thought would be worth paying for and the *hope* they use the watermark instead of the the directshow filter that keeps TTG off of the Mac right now.


That's an interesting question... I wonder about it too. There are arguments and rationalizations for using one versus the other or using both in addition to pondering at what time is the DRM and/or watermark applied.


----------



## atlantabriguy

Couldn't you just use this?

Videora


----------



## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> That's an interesting question... I wonder about it too. There are arguments and rationalizations for using one versus the other or using both in addition to pondering at what time is the DRM and/or watermark applied.


 Thinking solely for a system design and ignoring any legal issues/fears TiVo inc. would be considering. I would think that switching to just putting a watermark in the file on the way out and using the new conversion part of the desktop to do any muxing, fix up work to make it useable in the PC world it has the potential to speed up TiVoToGo to MRV or better speeds. Using macrovison to prevent content that has a specific agreement to not copy it, and then the watermark only to keep people in the realm of fair use would be a HUGE step forward for TTG. Now this may be all pie in the sky and TiVo has no intention of dropping the DRM is has now but I wanted to put this out for public discussion in case TiVo is leaning this way and needs a nudge.


----------



## davezatz

atlantabriguy said:


> Couldn't you just use this?
> 
> Videora


You could... but it requires you first remove TiVo encryption using another program. Though Videora's integrated that into some of their stuff (like the PSP Video 9 app) but they're using the notoriously quirky/buggy 3gp free converter which works sporadically. I'd rather pay a few bucks and have an all-in-one solution that works more often than not. For example TiVo's integration with WMP10 to produce WMV files is quick and reliable.


----------



## sepstein

bostlaw said:


> It would definitely be great if it worked for my Mac and iPod...I'm not gonna hold my breath on this one though...I'd upgrade to a new video iPod for this functionality...but I won't upgrade to a video iPod and also buy a PC to do it...


O.K., Pony, the Mac users are wondering if we're gonna be supported this time. The irony of an Apple device supporting PC only is almost too much to bear.

Steve


----------



## cptodd

sepstein said:


> The irony of an Apple device supporting PC only is almost too much to bear.
> 
> Steve


This was my point too. Perhaps (and I am not sure if we got the full story) this problem should be placed at Apple's feet (they refuse to let the TiVo folks have access to something critical. . .). I don't know. But it will be almost too much to bear if it is a PC only thing. I have been (as I usually do in the morning) checking out the Mac sites like macminute.com and macnn.com and I have found quite a few negative comments regarding the fact that TiVo2go does not work on OSX.


----------



## atlantabriguy

Thanks for the quick answer on Videora, davezatz!


----------



## jlb

This is intriguing, but I think the only way I would do this (which is constricted right now by my lack of a home network) would be if you could hook right into the USB port on the TiVo. Since I doubt this would be the case I guess I am out. And on top of that, I doubt I would upgrade my 30gb Photo to the Video, just to be able to do this.


----------



## JPA2825

Trying to decide between buying a new 5G iPod and keeping my current 3G, 20 gb. Ability to easily transfer shows to the new 5G would be a key factor. 

However, since I also have a Palm LifeDrive with TCPMP, is there an easy way (other than the above-mentioned TV Harmony which I'm going to explore) to get TTG shows onto the LifeDrive? If there is, I may stay with the 3G and use the LifeDrive for my TTG shows.

Any help would be much appreciated.


----------



## Goosesr

Hopefully tivo rewards will start carrying the video ipod soon to take advantage of this. Gotta blow through the old 20gb models first though I guess.


----------



## mrmkirsch

schalliol said:


> $15 or $30 one-time fee makes this easily worth it. Jeez folks, that's a small price to pay for functionality you didn't ever expect when you bought your TiVo....Hopefully TiVoToGo will come to Mac with this, would be a reasonable time to do it. Also, I like the watermark idea, as long as they let people know about it. It can encourage people to not do illegal things with it while giving the normal folks new ways to use the content.


Been there, done that. Before TiVO2Go functionality, TiVO came up with the Home Media for which it charged $99 for the first box and $69 for additional boxes. I sprung for the $167 so that I could transfer programming between my two boxes. Then, all of a sudden, one day I discovered that TiVO rolled the HMO functionality into the standard service. So I paid a large fee for something that ultimately got given away to all users. Don't think TiVO will ever see any additional $$$ for extra services from me again!


----------



## corjulo

You can bet Steve Jobs will insist on Mac support. PERIOD.


----------



## swinca

zorak303 said:


> i'm already constantly transferring to my PSP (1000x better than the video iPod, BTW) and i'll be interested to see how the "official" conversion tool works.


Same here. But if Tivo makes that process easier, I wouldn't mind paying a small one time fee for the software.


----------



## olubin

corjulo said:


> You can bet Steve Jobs will insist on Mac support. PERIOD.


Pony,

Can you put this question to rest? Mac users have been ignored by TiVo for a long time. At least get it over with quickly and let us know if this feature is even being developed for OSX. Thank you?


----------



## maxplanar

corjulo said:


> You can bet Steve Jobs will insist on Mac support. PERIOD.


Sadly, it seems he didn't insist enough. There's no Mac support for it. TiVo's lack of Mac support is incredibly frustrating, whoever's to blame. Not only this, but I'll bet the proportion of Mac users / TiVO owners is higher than the general computing population, as per for example internet users, who regularly show a higher proportion of Mac users than the 3% mark - I believe it's something like 11% the last survey I read. I wonder have we any way to get an idea of the metrics for TiVo-owning Mac users?

A survey here, though decidely unscientific, might give us some vague ballpark? Has that been done?


----------



## TiVo_Rod

TiVoPony said:


> Just to clarify...
> 
> There will be a beta for this. [edited]
> 
> Pony


BUT will it work on a Mac? TiVoToGo = MacNotGo :-(


----------



## rjcrum

For those of you who are interested, TVHarmony at http://www.tvharmony.com/main/ is a pretty slick FREE application.

It allows you to schedule downloads from your TiVo to your PC, converts the TiVo recording to the standard appropriate for an iPod or a PSP, maintains the DRM of the TiVo show by digitally watermarking the converted file with your MAK, and can automatically add the converted shows into your iTunes.

It really works well, IMHO.


----------



## TheSlyBear

maxplanar said:


> A survey here, though decidely unscientific, might give us some vague ballpark? Has that been done?


The MacWorld estimate of the Mac-using TiVo base was 15%.


----------



## davezatz

rjcrum said:


> maintains the DRM of the TiVo show by digitally watermarking the converted file with your MAK


Not exactly... it utilizes TiVo's dll to remove the encryption and add it's own copy protection by adding that MAK watermark. I know I'm splitting hairs here, but "circumventing" encryption could be illegal according to the DMCA though perhaps permissable under "fair use" - who knows! It seems clear these things violate our terms of service... But I don't think anyone will come after us for making personal copies.


----------



## mhn2

Arcady said:


> I can already transfer video from my DirecTiVo to my video iPod with a single click. Why would I pay somebody for this?


Please elaborate!


----------



## falc122727

gastrof said:


> I like the PSP part. Much more sturdy looking a gadget than an iPod.
> 
> Of course, series 1 owners can't make use of this...
> 
> Or can we?


Yes, if it's hacked. Do a google for ETIVO.


----------



## rjcrum

For Personal Use only, of course. I happen to be a big proponent of fair use, and see no reason why I shouldn't be able to move and playback any audio or video content that I have legally acquired, in the sphere of my own home, on any device of my choosing.

I'm not a lawbreaker. I'm just a consumer who believes that I should have the right to enjoy my entertainment when and where I want, on devices of my own choosing.

My daughter likes being able to watch SpongeBob SquarePants on her iPod!


----------



## Justin Thyme

It's sad, but it is not in Apple's interests to be helpful. Do you think Jobs wants to make it easy for people to load free video onto an iPod that he is trying to sell for $1.99? Think about it. Apple has even threatenned companies with lawsuits for their attempts to sell media that would play on an iPod. Jobs doesn't want any other fish in his pond and up until now he has been pretty good at keeping others out. You want better fluidity of media onto Apple platforms?

Write Jobs a letter. First, ask him to put real Mpeg2 support into Quicktime.

Secondly, ask him to license Fairplay. He has even been taken to court to force him to license Fairplay so they could sell music with protection (those suing lost). When Realnetworks figured out how to write pseudo Fairplay files, Jobs stated the next rev of iPod software would break RealNetworks's "scheme" to support iPods. And surprise, surprise- he made good on that threat.

Jobs even threatenned Realnetworks with a lawsuit for trying to support iPods with protected content. 

Your letter asking Jobs to be fair and not lock out other providers of video is basically asking him to allow direct competitors to his iTunes service.

Job's business model is: make money on the razor blade handle (iPod), make money on the razors (iTunes). The only DRM that works on iPod is fairplay, and by refusing to license it, he locks out most third party music and video vendors. Jobs likes the idea of $1.99, 320x240 video, extremely limited selection and DRM.

A million people in 20 days thought that was a great idea. 

That is, until a ballsy company like Tivo comes along and presents a different idea- How about no DRM (watermark only), any res you like, unlimited selection and Free videos?

The Tivo guys are leading the charge- they are a bunch of heroes in my book, and this feature is just another example of it.


----------



## bluebeetle

Does anyone know a good program to cut the commercials out? I tried the TVHarmony option but it doesn't work very well.


----------



## Justin Thyme

VideoRedo is awesomely fast. Highly recommended. www.videoredo.com

I used to do it a lot, but as fast as videoredo is, I found I am pretty lazy about cutting commercials. 95% of my 900 tivo archived movies have all the commercials intact.


----------



## bluebeetle

Sorry, I forgot to specify that I was looking for a good 'free' program to do this.


----------



## Justin Thyme

There is an automatic commercial detector you can enable in one of the free tools available on Doom9. Don't recall which one offhand. Maybe someone here does.

It's sensitivity is adjustable but still is a little dicey though and can mistakenly cut non commercials.


----------



## davezatz

To follow-up with Justin's thoughts on the market, here's an excerpt from an Ars article:



> How will the content industry react? Privately, I expect many of the big players are fuming. We can probably add Steve Jobs to the hoppin' mad list, because TiVo is not only looking to cash in on the popularity of the iPod, but they're doing it both without Apple's permission and right in the face of Apple's iTunes Music Store. Apple may sell a few more iPods as a result, but Apple's complete business model centrally locates the iTunes Music Store in the user experience. We've all heard the ruminations on how Apple makes so very little off of music and video sales. Their stature and stock price suggest otherwise. So do the actions of the content industry.
> 
> Indeed, as companies like Disney and NBC are venturing into ways to monetize content (a good sign that the business is not the black hole people think it is), TiVo is hoping to position itself as a product that can kill two birds with one stone. Get access to shows you can't normally watch by recording them with a DVR, and tap into the two most highly-visible mobile players out there and say, "hey, look, you don't have to pay for that show."
> 
> On the one hand, we have studios, technology companies, and politicians trying to convince us that TV is not only something that you pay for (unless you're the bunny ears type), but something that you pay even more for if you miss an original broadcast. The hope is that we'll look at $0.99 and $1.99 price tags on shows and think, "that's convenient, that's fair." On the other hand, those of us with DVRs find the idea of paying more for a TV show ridiculous. While it angers certain people when I do this, let me point out that a $60 cable+TiVo bill can get you a few hundred channels beyond the big networks, and something to the tune of 720 hours of content (more if you have dual tuners), but in Appleland, it only gets you 30 shows. There's much more to this comparison, but you get point: most of us already pay for TV, and not everyone wants to pay for select shows twice.


http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051121-5603.html


----------



## bluebeetle

I don't mind doing the cutting myself... I'd almost prefer that so there aren't any mistakes.


----------



## askewed

Now I really wish Apple would have bought TiVo!


----------



## logich

I've been playing with the autotranscoding in galleon on an apple, and it would be great if this new functionality was documented in an API and I could get video onto my new ipod using my mac. 

Are you sure that bribery won't work to get me in the beta? If not, when will the beta questionnaire be updated with a question about 5G iPods?


----------



## murrays

Justin Thyme said:


> It's sad, but it is not in Apple's interests to be helpful. Do you think Jobs wants to make it easy for people to load free video onto an iPod that he is trying to sell for $1.99?


First & foremost, Apple sells hardware. I believe this would help Apple sell more video capable iPods. I for one would be more interested in upgrading if I could watch programs on other TVs. Look how Apple has embraced Podcasting and Audio Books for examples of other people providing content.

Your issues with Fairplay ignore the underlying goal, selling iPods. Apple wants people who purchase music to be locked into iPods when they choose to upgrade. A look at Apples revenue would indicate that Jobs is making the right calls.

-murray


----------



## TiVoPony

Regarding the Macintosh...

Yes, we intend to support it, but not in the February release. Macintosh support for the new features announced today is planned for mid-2006.

Pony

(edited for clarity)


----------



## Cooper

There's a lot of complaining by Tivo users about the lack of Mac functionality - and I'm not saying it's not justified.

For me, the bigger issue is the lack of Tivo functionality for a large portion of TIVO owners - DirecTivo owners. Tivo reports these subscribers as Tivo subscribers - and still here's YET ANOTHER great feature that we won't be able to use.

Very frustrating...


----------



## chiefted

Ok wondering what the big news here is, I have been transferring stuff to my 
video iPod since I got it from my Tivo using Tivotogo and Tvharmony (on the windows machine) and Galleon and Direct show dump (using vitural pc) on my mac.


----------



## Justin Thyme

murrays said:


> Your issues with Fairplay ignore the underlying goal, selling iPods. Apple wants people who purchase music to be locked into iPods when they choose to upgrade. A look at Apples revenue would indicate that Jobs is making the right calls.


All you are doing is quibbling over the motivation. The important point you accept is that Apple is using DRM to lock out competitors. It doesn't matter the exact reason that it is in Jobs' interest to throw roadblocks in the way of other providers of video and music.

Having a Tivo supply free video removes Apple's lock in. If you own a video iPod today and 4 months later decide the 2.5 inch screen really isn't cutting it anymore, well- next time around you can move your video over to an Archos, or a iRiver. (BTW- for a music player check out the CNET downloaded Tivo show- very cool UI and alarm clock/ speaker docking station.)

The biproduct is that Apple's DRM policy provides a legal shield to Tivo. Content guys can only sue if the party has not taken reasonably available steps to protect the content. Apple has made it impossible to protect video content with DRM and in any case they are doing better than all of the carriers. The cableco decodes its video and sends it out analog lines that anyone can use to make digital copies using a PC. Tivo is actually doing a better job that the cablecos are by putting in watermarking. If macrovision at some future date requires via its licensing to put digital markers in Mpeg4 files, then Tivo will start doing that as well.


----------



## TiVoPony

Cooper said:


> There's a lot of complaining by Tivo users about the lack of Mac functionality - and I'm not saying it's not justified.
> 
> For me, the bigger issue is the lack of Tivo functionality for a large portion of TIVO owners - DirecTivo owners. Tivo reports these subscribers as Tivo subscribers - and still here's YET ANOTHER great feature that we won't be able to use.
> 
> Very frustrating...


Those features could work on your DIRECTV DVR with TiVo. DIRECTV has chosen not to make those features available. It is not up to TiVo.

Pony


----------



## Justin Thyme

TiVoPony said:


> Regarding the Macintosh...
> 
> Yes, we intend to support it, but not in the February release. Macintosh support for the new features announced today is planned for mid-2006.
> 
> Pony
> 
> (edited for clarity)


 Wow. WoW. Wow. This is getting very interesting.

(edited for clarity of emotion.)


----------



## olubin

TiVoPony said:


> Regarding the Macintosh...
> 
> Yes, we intend to support it, but not in the February release. Macintosh support for the new features announced today is planned for mid-2006.
> 
> Pony
> 
> (edited for clarity)


thank you.


----------



## IndyJones1023

Maybe I missed the news in another thread. Huzzah for TiVo!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/tv_nm/tivo_dc



> TiVo Inc. on Monday said it will begin testing a feature in the coming weeks to let some subscribers transfer recorded television programming to Apple iPod digital music players or Sony's PlayStation portable devices...


----------



## Steavis

That would be enough to send the video iPod to the top of my Christmas list... except that I own a DirecTiVo and do 99% of my computing on a Mac. D'oh!


----------



## murrays

Justin Thyme said:


> All you are doing is quibbling over the motivation. The important point you accept is that Apple is using DRM to lock out competitors. It doesn't matter the exact reason that it is in Jobs' interest to throw roadblocks in the way of other providers of video and music.
> 
> Having a Tivo supply free video removes Apple's lock in. If you own a video iPod today and 4 months later decide the 2.5 inch screen really isn't cutting it anymore, well- next time around you can move your video over to an Archos, or a iRiver. (BTW- for a music player check out the CNET downloaded Tivo show- very cool UI and alarm clock/ speaker docking station.)


First, Apple does nothing to stop Podcasts from playing on iPods. In fact, they embrace the added content. They are hardly throwing roadblocks in the way of other providers in this case!

Second, Apple has no lock in regarding video. Unlike music, only a small percentage of TV video content is paid for and iTMS is not going to change that. You cant legally acquire music of your choosing without paying a direct fee. Video, OTOH, is freely available over the air. Free content will instantly make the new iPod more attractive.

The only way I see Apple blocking this is if they have their own DVR functionality in the works.

-murray


----------



## edhara

Replace "ipod" with "PSP" and they've got themselves a winner for me. I still like the form factor of the PSP for viewing video better.

Having said that, though. It still might be enough to UMF me into an ipod video.


----------



## Cabinwood

Yikes, the UMF for a Video iPod is getting stronger and stronger.


----------



## IndyJones1023

It does work for PSP, Ed!


----------



## aindik

Thread here in the Coffee House.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=272266


----------



## BeanMeScot

edhara said:


> Replace "ipod" with "PSP" and they've got themselves a winner for me. I still like the form factor of the PSP for viewing video better.
> 
> Having said that, though. It still might be enough to UMF me into an ipod video.


There is a thread in the TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion forum. They indicated it would be for PSP or Ipod.


----------



## M82A1A

I think that this is going to be for the PSP as well. I think I read that on Engadget.

Also, remember that you have been able to transfer shows to Pocket PCs for a while. I have watched many shows on my Axim.


----------



## GeeCee

As a multi-platform user, thanks for the Mac love, Pony!  

Well, you and everyone else over there.


----------



## mtnagel

Edgadget posted a how-to on 10/18 about this that was posted on ilounge. I posted the engadget link here and it was removed in minutes. So the capability has been there for over a month, albeit not an official method.


----------



## Peter000

This is very exciting.


----------



## Hoffer

Too bad this doesn't work with DirecTV TiVos. 

I've never held a PSP or video iPod, but I think I'd rather use a PSP for video.


----------



## DougF

Good news. This could possibly convince me to get an SA again.


----------



## TheNumberSix

The only thing I want to say is...

*Thank you TiVoPony for the Mac update!* I eagerly look forward to this. TTG was the only thing that made me keep a Windows PC around.


----------



## edhara

> TiVo Inc. on Monday said it will begin testing a feature in the coming weeks to let some subscribers transfer recorded television programming to Apple iPod digital music players or *Sony's PlayStation portable* devices...


YES!!!! I am AWESOME! I have absolutely *NO* reading abilities whatsoever! I are illiterate! Illegitimate, even! Amd bain dread to boot! To shoe, even! HA HA!



DUH.


----------



## IndyJones1023

LOL, I love you, Ed.


----------



## edhara

IndyJones1023 said:


> LOL, I love you, Ed.


Love you too, bro.


----------



## Cooper

TiVoPony said:


> Those features could work on your DIRECTV DVR with TiVo. DIRECTV has chosen not to make those features available. It is not up to TiVo.
> 
> Pony


Fortunately or unfortunately, it probably won't matter come next year anyway, as Directv migrates us over to their own DVR, which will support features like this.


----------



## ellinj

edhara said:


> YES!!!! I am AWESOME! I have absolutely *NO* reading abilities whatsoever! I are illiterate! Illegitimate, even! Amd bain dread to boot! To shoe, even! HA HA!
> 
> 
> 
> DUH.


Reading is the easy part its the comprehension thats hard


----------



## MickeS

> So I paid a large fee for something that ultimately got given away to all users. Don't think TiVO will ever see any additional $$$ for extra services from me again!


I was wondering how long it would take before someone brought up that! 
You don't have to pay if you don't think it's worth it.


----------



## Gunnyman

Hoffer said:


> Too bad this doesn't work with DirecTV TiVos.
> 
> I've never held a PSP or video iPod, but I think I'd rather use a PSP for video.


oh but it does 
(as long as it's not a series 1 or an R10)


----------



## rainwater

Cooper said:


> Fortunately or unfortunately, it probably won't matter come next year anyway, as Directv migrates us over to their own DVR, which will support features like this.


You mean DirectTV has announced support for TiVoToGo functionality and the ability to sync to your ipod/psp?


----------



## Fofer

Steavis said:


> That would be enough to send the video iPod to the top of my Christmas list... except that I own a DirecTiVo and do 99% of my computing on a Mac. D'oh!


Me too.



Gunnyman said:


> oh but it does
> (as long as it's not a series 1 or an R10)


Indeed. A hacked DirecTiVo + TiVoTool for Mac + iPod Video = a very good thing indeed!


----------



## Cooper

Networking ability, yes. I'd bet money that I'll be able to transfer video files to my PC (or Mac) from the new Directv DVR. From there, it's an easy transfer to the ipod.

I'd prefer NOT to use this option. I'd rather keep my tivo. But if tivo can't get directv to support its technology, I guess it's the only option there is.


----------



## hear

I dont understand why this is such a great feature. It would be great if you could plug it into the back of your Tivo and than it would automaticly put it in your psp or IPOD. Taking forever for the transfer to pc and then your pc tied up going from the Tivo format to MP4? It is almost worthless. Put it in the USB and make it work. So simple but so stinking Pathedic this can already be done.. 
I have a tv card in my pc. I can record to free and convert using a free software and load on my pc right now doesn't take a genius. Make something great use the PORT!


----------



## ZeoTiVo

hear said:


> I dont understand why this is such a great feature. It would be great if you could plug it into the back of your Tivo and than it would automaticly put it in your psp or IPOD. Taking forever for the transfer to pc and then your pc tied up going from the Tivo format to MP4? It is almost worthless. Put it in the USB and make it work. So simple but so stinking Pathedic this can already be done..
> I have a tv card in my pc. I can record to free and convert using a free software and load on my pc right now doesn't take a genius. Make something great use the PORT!


a USB port does not a high power CPU with ability to convert formats make.

maybe next year in the newer cable card model but you will never see this for a Series 2 unless it had exepnsive hardware/firmware to do the conversion as part of the USB adapter hardware


----------



## ianmccarthy

isn't there some way to get the TiVoToGo stuff streamed from your PC to a mobile phone? 

(not that streaming would work with EITHER the iPod or the PSP today, so w00t! on there being a sync-and-go solution for those)


----------



## errandwolfe

You know I think it is great that you will be able to download and transfer your programs like this, but I must echo all the other Mac users out there. 

We all bought our Tivo's with the understanding that Macs were supported, at least to be able to share your MP3's with your Tivo if not download the programming. Since 10.4 has been released though it seems like Tivo has totally abandoned the Mac user base. Any time I call to get updates on when the new Tivo Desktop software will be out for Mac I get answers ranging from oh any day now to reps saying Macs will not be supported at all. 

For most of us on 10.4 we can at least play our mp3's using several hacks out there, now with osx86 (OS X for Intel hardware) right around the corner, it looks like folks who buy the new macs will be totally locked out of Tivo Desktop. Have a friend of a friend who has one of the 10.4.3 Intel Developer kits, Tivo Desktop won't even start. Only thing we have been able to figure out is it has something to do with java. 

I made up my mind that if by February '06 Tivo does not improve the way they treat us Mac folks, my Tivo is going bye-bye and I am just going to get my DVR from my cable company. I may not be able to play my mp3's anymore, but at half the cost of Tivo monthly and no hardware to buy, I will live. 

Thank you for listening and this concludes my rant of the day.


----------



## jmoak

hear said:


> Taking forever for the transfer to pc and then your pc tied up going from the Tivo format to MP4? It is almost worthless.


As I can download a 30min video to my computer in about 15min (540 hardware w/wired connection, higher quality would be almost realtime), and according to this article it takes 10min to convert and transfer to an IPod (which has been reported done on a pc "in the background"), your "forever" may be a bit overstated.

...and those who don't have the hardware or the skills to capture video themselves would hardly consider it "worthless".


----------



## bostlaw

TiVoPony said:


> Regarding the Macintosh...
> 
> Yes, we intend to support it, but not in the February release. Macintosh support for the new features announced today is planned for mid-2006.
> 
> Pony
> 
> (edited for clarity)


Can you edit the word "intend" for clarity????


----------



## cwoody222

TiVoPony said:


> Regarding the Macintosh...
> 
> Yes, we intend to support it, but not in the February release. Macintosh support for the new features announced today is planned for mid-2006.
> 
> Pony
> 
> (edited for clarity)


Holy sh!t... we got a statement! From someone we know! On the SAME day we asked for it! With a timeframe (vague as it may be)! Has the world stopped spinning?!

While I am suspect of the particular phrasing used "support for the *new features announced today* " will mean we still won't be able to play .tivo files on a Mac, at least this is SOMETHING.

Still ain't enough, though. But it's a start.


----------



## Justin Thyme

murrays said:


> First, Apple does nothing to stop Podcasts from playing on iPods. In fact, they embrace the added content. They are hardly throwing roadblocks in the way of other providers in this case!


My assertion was that Apple uses its DRM policy to block content that competes with iTunes. Podcasting does not compete with iTunes. Podcasting does not use DRM. Your first point is meaningless.



murrays said:


> Second, Apple has no lock in regarding video. Unlike music, only a small percentage of TV video content is paid for and iTMS is not going to change that. You cant legally acquire music of your choosing without paying a direct fee. Video, OTOH, is freely available over the air. Free content will instantly make the new iPod more attractive.


If your argument was correct, then Apple would have no problem licensing fairplay to Realnetworks, Akimbo, Walmart, Tivo, etc etc. for use with Video content.

But they don't. Why? Well I'm glad you asked.

Microsoft assumed the legal responsibility of transcoding DRM protected .Tivo files to for use on portable devices by employing their WMV format that has its own DRM. They did this because it was in their own interest: they wanted to promote the platforms that use their software. Similarly, to believe your argument, Apple would be similarly motivated to provide a converter of .Tivo files into iPod Video format. But they didn't. Why? Not in their interests.

Another mistake you are making is to confuse "Free" with "Free of legal obligation". Recall the lesson of ReplayTv. Free Video, yes. But Replay was not free of the legal obligation to do what was reasonably possible to prevent illegal copying. Not a lot of companies have the cajones to go right up to the line of risking an MPAA lawsuit. Apple was counting on that. So that leaves licensed content. No one is going to be able to put studio content on the internet without DRM, and Apple jolly well knows that as well. Apple's ace is that they only support one DRM which they won't license. So any way you want to cut it, it is a DRM lock out strategy.

Lastly, to your error on motivation. You confuse the small picture of iPod profit margins today with the long term bigger picture of the mature iPod-iTunes money machine.

Why does Jobs want to protect his service? Long term, players becomes a commodity with very slim margins. Calculators that used to cost several hundred dollars can now be purchased on a whim at the checkstand. Unlike general purpose computers with ever greater tasks put to them, playing an mp3 or mpeg video file costs the same processing power today as it did 7 years ago. Therefore, Moores law grinds the cost of performing that function down to zero. You pay more for the battery and case than the memory and processor.

Apple's long term revenues are with the iTunes service, not the music/video player. Therefore, their business model is in conflict with Tivo's.


----------



## murrays

Justin Thyme said:


> My assertion was that Apple uses its DRM policy to block content that competes with iTunes. Podcasting does not compete with iTunes. Podcasting does not use DRM. Your first point is meaningless.


Funny, I was able to load 300 CDs into iTunes free from Apples DRM. I suppose that doesnt compete with iTunes 

I agree, Apple would like to control all music and video distribution through iTMS, but you seem to think music and video are the same when, in fact, they have very different distribution and uses. I guess well have to disagree on the immediate and long term benefit to Apple.

-murray


----------



## tazzftw

It's nice to have something official for this, seeing as I do have the video iPod. However, what's irritating is that more than likely I won't be able to edit out commercials like TVHarmany is doing. Come on! I'm just going to skip over them on the device. At least let me get rid of them in order to save space.


----------



## TiVoPony

cwoody222 said:


> Holy sh!t... we got a statement! From someone we know! On the SAME day we asked for it! With a timeframe (vague as it may be)! Has the world stopped spinning?!
> 
> While I am suspect of the particular phrasing used "support for the *new features announced today* " will mean we still won't be able to play .tivo files on a Mac, at least this is SOMETHING.
> 
> Still ain't enough, though. But it's a start.


Hmmm...I see that I have to be very careful with each and every word that I choose to type. 

I did not intend for my statement to exclude playback on the Macintosh. My understanding is that that should be supported as well, in the same timeframe (mid-2006).

Pony


----------



## cwoody222

That's great news!

Hey - ya can't blame us for nit-picking every word TiVo has said officially about Mac support... since that only accounts for a few dozen words total since January of this year


----------



## slydog75

I don't understand the attraction of the Video IPOD... That screen is so freaking small. How much are they selling for? I understand theire benefit over the PSP (a hard drive) but what about the new Creative Zen Vision? Same size screen as the PSP with a 30G hard drive and flash card reader and it supports avie, mpegs and wmv. Of course, no Mac support, but that's the price you pay for using one.

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000590046151/


----------



## phloyd00

PONY:

Do we have any information (or maybe even a good guess) as to when this thing will be beta-tested, and how those people are going to be chosen? Particularly since there is no question on the beta testing application page pertaining to whether Tivo subscribers even own a 5th gen. ipod. 

I know all of us in this forum would certainly like to be on the list. 

...and did you say february would be when it is released standard for pc? Also, there's a lot of chatter in here about costs. Is that true?

Thanks for clearing up these issues............................................................


----------



## davezatz

slydog75 said:


> I don't understand the attraction of the Video IPOD... That screen is so freaking small. How much are they selling for? I understand theire benefit over the PSP (a hard drive) but what about the new Creative Zen Vision? Same size screen as the PSP with a 30G hard drive and flash card reader and it supports avie, mpegs and wmv. Of course, no Mac support, but that's the price you pay for using one.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000590046151/


Having owned both a Video iPod and a PSP, I can tell you the screen on the PSP is a thousand times better on many levels such as clarity and size. The iPod has the simple syncing ability and hard drive which are appealing. The Engadget guys and I were dissapointed in the Zen Vision - it's got a boatload of features in a nice form factor, but the viewing angle is pretty limited. You'll have to hold it at a specific angle to get the best image possible and watching with somene else (such as on a plane) is out of the question.

My current favorite in the portable world is the Archos AV 500: http://www.shoparchos.com/product.aspx?sku=2724201&culture=en-US

It's a bit industrial looking, but the screen is much better than the Zen and on top of the typical features you can also use it to record directly from your cable feed, DVD player, whatever. The AV 700 has a larger screen, but that also means it weighs and costs more.


----------



## tazzftw

slydog75 said:


> I don't understand the attraction of the Video IPOD... That screen is so freaking small. How much are they selling for? I understand theire benefit over the PSP (a hard drive) but what about the new Creative Zen Vision? Same size screen as the PSP with a 30G hard drive and flash card reader and it supports avie, mpegs and wmv. Of course, no Mac support, but that's the price you pay for using one.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000590046151/


Price is one. The Zen is much more expensive for such a small amount of hard drive space in comparison.

As for the screen, while the Zen is bigger, I don't need a big screen for watching video on short trips. The iPod gets the job done.


----------



## jjamezz

:up: :up: *That's the way it should be.... I didn't contract the production, therefore... Ishould not distribute it UNLESS theoriiginal contractors say it's OK.... in which case being tracked wouldn't matter anyway. * :up: :up:



burnsy said:


> Not cool...
> 
> -----------------
> 
> To help prevent piracy, TiVo says its software will insert an invisible watermark in shows that are formatted for iPods. If such programs show up on Internet file-sharing networks, entertainment companies, working with TiVo, will be able to use the watermark to identify the TiVo user from which it originated.
> 
> -----------------


----------



## megazone

ianmccarthy said:


> isn't there some way to get the TiVoToGo stuff streamed from your PC to a mobile phone?


Orb.com perhaps.


----------



## jjamezz

emfraser said:


> Do we even know if there will be Mac support for this? Probably not, given Tivo's track record...


 yes... Macintosh beta as well????

I sure hope so... support an Apple product, but not Apple PC's? (don't argue, the acronym is personal computer... )

Mac support please Mr. Tivo buddy guy, please.


----------



## phloyd00

jjamezz said:


> :up: :up: *That's the way it should be.... I didn't contract the production, therefore... Ishould not distribute it UNLESS theoriiginal contractors say it's OK.... in which case being tracked wouldn't matter anyway. * :up: :up:


Agreed.........If it didnt have the watermark, and if Tivo didn't have a media access key, you'd see all major networks and motion picture studios calling for Tivo to cease operations.

Unless you want to sell your downloads and commit a federal crime I don't see the problem.


----------



## megazone

peteypete said:


> Ok, it would be super cool if you could just plug the ipod into the usb port of the tivo and then download using the remote control.


The problem is the format. The TiVo records in MPEG2, the iPod and PSP use MPEG4. The TiVo doesn't have the horsepower to convert on the unit.

I'm also not so sure about the advantage of a direct connection. Most people have TiVos in their entertainment centers, and cabling in their iPod or PSP isn't so convenient. The only problem now is really that TTG is fairly slow. If the network transfer could be sped up it wouldn't be so bad.


----------



## megazone

corjulo said:


> You can bet Steve Jobs will insist on Mac support. PERIOD.


Since TiVo appears to be doing this without Apple, Steve Jobs can't insist on anything.


----------



## Y-ASK

WooHoo! I own a PSP! Let the good times roll...

Y-ASK


----------



## Redux

slydog75 said:


> I don't understand the attraction of the Video IPOD...


You're right. Your arguments are overwhelming. I doubt they'll sell a single one of them.


----------



## hammer32

Giddy up, TiVoPony


----------



## phloyd00

megazone said:


> Since TiVo appears to be doing this without Apple, Steve Jobs can't insist on anything.


I hope this doesn't mean that Apple will update iTunes or the iPod firmware to prevent Tivo's doing this--like they did with some competitors of the iTunes service early on................


----------



## milescoltrane

Arcady said:


> Why would anyone want to share a 320x240 file designed for a video iPod, when you can download HDTV-quality stuff anyway? As usual, DRM just serves to keep technology difficult to use for everyday users.


the peeps that 1) own a new iPod and 2) don't have a Tivo or DVR capable of transferring to a device would find this pretty handy don't ya think?

the fact that so many have lost any interest in the sonic quality of music speaks to this.

essentially if its there and already encoded/formatted people will download it


----------



## milescoltrane

phloyd00 said:


> I hope this doesn't mean that Apple will update iTunes or the iPod firmware to prevent Tivo's doing this--like they did with some competitors of the iTunes service early on................


this is a great point/concern and I feel likely. Currently no commercially downloadable music is able to be transferred to the iPod via supported methods. (unless the Real/Rhapsody solution is working - I haven't tried for a long while).

apple clearly wants iTunes software to be the only program legitimized to synch content to the iPod. this will be interesting to watch....... even though logically anything that helps drive content to the iPod should only help sell more iPods - apple hasn't opened it up for music


----------



## Justin Thyme

jmoak said:


> As I can download a 30min video to my computer in about 15min (540 hardware w/wired connection, higher quality would be almost realtime), and according to this article it takes 10min to convert and transfer to an IPod (which has been reported done on a pc "in the background"), your "forever" may be a bit overstated.


Jmoak- I think you are right the transfer time is not going to be a barrier, but I do think Zeo nailed the meaning of Bob's quip about not talking about a texas two step. If they do IO direct to Tivo file system, they will allow the conversion time to overlap both the inbound transfer time from Tivo and outbound xfer to iPod. Zeo's scenario is entirely possible. They could very well grab the bits off the wire and immediately pump into the mpeg4 transcode buffer. Since the task is simply to get into mpeg4 format, why mux up an intermediate mpeg2 file, only to then demux it then transcode to mpeg4? Step 1, you are IO bound, with the PC's processor idle waiting for IO from the Tivo. Step 2, you are Processor bound- the IO to disk is idled, waiting for the Mpeg4 encoder to grind the numbers. Step 3 you are IO bound again waiting for iPod IO. That's a fat lot of waste.

Kind of glanced over in all of this is the idea of making it all automagic- Making TivoToGo a geekless experience is key to maximizing this huge Tivo advantage. Install the software, set the shows to scan for, forget about it. Come home, dock your iPod to charge it, and it gets fed with data at the same time- maybe autoloading all shows on your Tivo(s) matching wildcards or attributes (eg. copy all shows marked Keep until delete). Really, who cares if the transfers take 5 microseconds or 5 hours. I don't pick up the iPod until morning anyway.

If I were writing such an app, I would pre cache converted files and have them waiting for xfer so that I could just touch and go a PSP after flashing the memory with the preconverted video. Transfer to iPod would also be at its maxiumum data rate.

That might be reading way more into a few words that Bob meant in an entirely different way, so take this all with more than a grain of salt. But after shifting this into D for Drag, let's shift into R for Race and see if the engine jumps out of the hood.

What are the implications for an automagic Desktop that does transcodes on the PC side? How would you for example do Multi Room Viewing when you have a Cablecard Tivo that has a recorded Mpeg4 file in a resolution that's too big for an SA tivo to display? What's going to do the downresing and or Mpeg2 conversion? Maybe there is no MRV between CC and SA tivos? Well, maybe. I will probably rev most of my boxes. But not necessarily. You might get real time transfer with a sufficiently fast PC, but to do it, you are going to need this sort of pipelined approach to data conversion where latencies from isolated steps are removed.

MRV between dissimilar platforms is not the killer requirement this addresses though. The same thing is very useful for Mpeg4 downloads off the net. Now you can do triple the number of shows downloaded CNet style with the same bandwidth cost- all this done with the key being that it be done in a very automagic fashion.

So throw the data direction into reverse. Or was that R for Race? Is the engine jumping out of the hood yet?


----------



## jstr

phloyd00 said:


> I hope this doesn't mean that Apple will update iTunes or the iPod firmware to prevent Tivo's doing this--like they did with some competitors of the iTunes service early on................


I think this will be good for iPod sales, so I don't think Apple will try to block it. I've been debating whether or not to buy an iPod, and this move by TiVo suddenly makes my decision easy (as in buy one as soon as this new service is released). I would guess that many other TiVo users also will buy iPods soon.

I think the only reason Apple would try to block it is if they see this as bad for their iTunes video sales, but their main goal is to sell hardware, so I think this is a win-win situation for both Apple and TiVo.

I love to see that TiVo is coming out with so many great new features recently. This one and the potential of the Yahoo alliance are very exciting.


----------



## megazone

phloyd00 said:


> I hope this doesn't mean that Apple will update iTunes or the iPod firmware to prevent Tivo's doing this--like they did with some competitors of the iTunes service early on................


The only way they can stop this is if they blocked ALL user provided video from the iPod. No way in hell.


----------



## jstr

megazone said:


> The only way they can stop this is if they blocked ALL user provided video from the iPod. No way in hell.


Good point! This will end up being in the same format as their own Quicktime Pro makes to play on the iPod, so there really is no stopping it.


----------



## phloyd00

jstr said:


> I think this will be good for iPod sales, so I don't think Apple will try to block it. I've been debating whether or not to buy an iPod, and this move by TiVo suddenly makes my decision easy (as in buy one as soon as this new service is released). I would guess that many other TiVo users also will buy iPods soon.
> 
> I think the only reason Apple would try to block it is if they see this as bad for their iTunes video sales, but their main goal is to sell hardware, so I think this is a win-win situation for both Apple and TiVo.
> 
> I love to see that TiVo is coming out with so many great new features recently. This one and the potential of the Yahoo alliance are very exciting.


First, I'm surprised Apple didn't want to endorse this. It does seem that Apple would recognize this is wonderful for them, but as we all know apple can be controlling over their products because they want to control everything. If they upgrade the firmware to prevent Tivo's doing this I am positive that everyone that has an iPod and a Tivo will and should be an uproar. Also, Apple should realize that the iPod is by far the most popular product they've ever had that traverses a lot of spectrums. Apple should not be a hog--we all know what happens to hogs--they get slaughtered...


----------



## phloyd00

megazone said:


> The only way they can stop this is if they blocked ALL user provided video from the iPod. No way in hell.


I hope you're right.


----------



## phloyd00

phloyd00 said:


> PONY:
> 
> Do we have any information (or maybe even a good guess) as to when this thing will be beta-tested, and how those people are going to be chosen? Particularly since there is no question on the beta testing application page pertaining to whether Tivo subscribers even own a 5th gen. ipod.
> 
> I know all of us in this forum would certainly like to be on the list.
> 
> ...and did you say february would be when it is released standard for pc? Also, there's a lot of chatter in here about costs. Is that true?
> 
> Thanks for clearing up these issues............................................................


Anyone have ANY clue about this???


----------



## hargreae

milescoltrane said:


> Currently no commercially downloadable music is able to be transferred to the iPod via supported methods.


 Wrong. eMusic.com downloads can be put into your iTunes library and synced to your iPod because they do not use DRM. It's a good site that folks should check out. No big-label albums are there, obviously, because those labels insist on DRM.

People who are saying that Apple will block TiVo from doing this don't seem to understand that Apple allows non-DRM'ed video files onto the iPod that are MPEG-4. This is why the conversion has to take place. If you know how to rip DVDs, you can load them (music videos take up about 25-40MB). Apple would probably have a problem if TiVo reverse-engineered FairPlay, like Real did with Rhapsody. This is probably why TiVo is going with the watermark method, which I think they should have used in the first place with TiVoToGo. Converting the MPEG-2 files to the .tivo format is what makes the transfer process so frickin' slow.


----------



## TiVoPony

phloyd00 said:


> PONY:
> 
> Do we have any information (or maybe even a good guess) as to when this thing will be beta-tested, and how those people are going to be chosen? Particularly since there is no question on the beta testing application page pertaining to whether Tivo subscribers even own a 5th gen. ipod.
> 
> I know all of us in this forum would certainly like to be on the list.
> 
> ...and did you say february would be when it is released standard for pc? Also, there's a lot of chatter in here about costs. Is that true?
> 
> Thanks for clearing up these issues............................................................


Already said what I can about the beta earlier in this very thread. And it was also reported in numerous places that February is the target. And yes, that's for the PC. And it was reported that there would be a small charge for this particular software.

It's all in this very thread...and we're only at five pages. 

Pony


----------



## corjulo

TiVoPony said:


> Regarding the Macintosh...
> 
> Yes, we intend to support it, but not in the February release. Macintosh support for the new features announced today is planned for mid-2006.
> 
> Pony
> 
> (edited for clarity)


Let me get this right, Tivo is going to release support for the iPod video but only on windows, with a promise of Mac support to follow. Fool me once...... Steve Jobs will never let this happen. Mac support or nothing


----------



## megazone

corjulo said:


> Let me get this right, Tivo is going to release support for the iPod video but only on windows, with a promise of Mac support to follow. Fool me once...... Steve Jobs will never let this happen. Mac support or nothing


Steve Jobs has absolutely no say in the matter.


----------



## murrays

jstr said:


> I think the only reason Apple would try to block it is if they see this as bad for their iTunes video sales, but their main goal is to sell hardware, so I think this is a win-win situation for both Apple and TiVo.


Video sales will NEVER take off the way music has, not at the current prices and slow speed.

You forgot the other reason Apple might want to block this...DVR functionality in an Apple set top box 

-murray


----------



## Justin Thyme

Video is different than music. It is hard to imagine Apple coming out with a DVR without HDTV support. And HDTV support without cablecard would make recording limited to the few Over the air channels in your city. 

So at this stage of the game, an Apple offering would pretty much have to have cablecard support. However, certification as a cablecard host is required prior to release. This is a public process that involves a prolonged set of tests. Microsoft has been in that process for about a year. Only in the last few weeks did they achieve an agreement with cablelabs on becoming a certified cablecard host. The target date for Windows cablecard is to be ready for the christmas season 2006. 

So if Apple has plans for a DVR, they will first have to achieve Cablecard certification. And that isn't going to happen overnight.

Apple could release a DVR today that could do what an SA Tivo does. But they also could have done it 6 years ago. So far they haven't. 

There is a good chance they will enter if they can figure out how to be more than a small player. What makes that a very difficult goal for Apple to achieve is Cableco giveaways, and Satellite company lockout of third party boxes that make direct connection to their network. 

We have heard the Apple DVR wishful thinking for the last 4 years.

Maybe next year.


----------



## alinke

Since the PSP has wi-fi capability, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to get TIVO files from the PSP directly. Would just need a TIVO TO GO Client for the PSP. This would be much more streamlined. In my opinion, TIVO should support both going through the PC and direct for PSPs. Just my two cents...


----------



## Arcady

And where would the MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 conversion take place in that setup?


----------



## alinke

Arcady said:


> And where would the MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 conversion take place in that setup?


good point, conversion would need to happen as space will be a constraint as most psp users probably have a 1 gig memory stick at the most given 2 gig memory sticks right now are very expensive.

If there was local tivo to go client application running on the psp, I would think that application could also take care of this conversion. may take a little longer than if my pc did it but I'd be willing to wait given the benefit of not having to go through the pc


----------



## NotVeryWitty

Justin Thyme said:


> So at this stage of the game, an Apple offering would pretty much have to have cablecard support. However, certification as a cablecard host is required prior to release. This is a public process that involves a prolonged set of tests. Microsoft has been in that process for about a year. Only in the last few weeks did they achieve an agreement with cablelabs on becoming a certified cablecard host. The target date for Windows cablecard is to be ready for the christmas season 2006.


Justin,

Do you know where Tivo is in this process for their CC-enabled box? Are they already certified? If so, how long did it take them?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

corjulo said:


> Let me get this right, Tivo is going to release support for the iPod video but only on windows, with a promise of Mac support to follow. Fool me once...... Steve Jobs will never let this happen. Mac support or nothing


Folks, this thread has the first clearly worded statements from a TiVo employee (giddy up, TiVoPony  ) that full TTG will be supported on the Mac in mid-2006. There was never a date set before this one in any statement from TiVo so there was no fool me once other than TiVo hit a brickwall on Mac support and had no progress to report for quite a while. I can understand being upset about this but..

I think we can lay the Mac support issue to rest for now as the new CEO seems to have set the vision of getting a fully functional TiVoToGo out there for both platforms by mid 2006. It seems this new ToGo will be set it and forget it in the grand tradition of an easy to use TiVo product as well. This is what TiVoPony has reported in this thread and there is nothing Steve Jobs can do to stop this and TiVo is well aware they need to hit this target as well.


----------



## jstr

According to cnet article :
"TiVo will add a link to its Web site in a few weeks seeking beta testers. Candidates will need to have a broadband connection, and the company will choose testers based partly on how respondents phrase their responses to some questions."


----------



## Justin Thyme

NotVeryWitty said:


> Do you know where Tivo is in this process for their CC-enabled box? Are they already certified? If so, how long did it take them?


 Thank you for your question. It caused me to review some of my crackpot thinking on this point. I know that the cablecard Tivo could come out in the first months of 2006 though most observers are guessing by mid 2006. That must mean they have signed the necessary agreements and done a lot of testing prior to this. This must be true but I don't see any quick corroboration of this from the cablecard site or sources like multichannel news.

Until I educate myself more or someone else can straighten me out, I think it is proper to retract my suggestion that the cablecard certification process is some sort of reliable tripwire for detecting the presence of a new OS platform applicant like Apple or Microsoft. Simply because Microsoft's signing and participation in the test waves was public does not mean that all participants need allow the public disclosure of their interactions with CableLabs.

It makes sense that even if cablelabs attempts to do its best to maintain confidentiality that the length of the certification wave would allow a lot of opportunities for leaks making their way to the prolific Mac Rumor blogs. The Micosoft MVP site claimed that the test wave that microsoft was it ended in August. Reviewing the schedule for the unidirectional test waves, that means their entrance shut off date was March. Multichannel news reported  their participation in June. So in that case, there was five months of warning before the cablelabs announcement  of a deal with microsoft on unidirectional cablecard availability for their platform. While it is true that self-verification is allowed for uni directional cablecard hosts, I would think that cablecard would not license to a new OS entrant until they had certified for themselves that the OS's output channel was secure. This is a difficult thing for a general purpose OS, because consumer platforms have stiven to achieve the highest possible speed often at the expense of security considerations.

I have no idea how high a bar Cablelabs has set or if Microsoft will be required to be running longhorn (Vista) to legally use cablelabs licensed technology, or if Microsoft bypassed longhorn by proposing an embedded windows closed box dvr design that experts predict is more palatable to the studios. I can imagine that the bar is fairly extreme due to the pressure of the studios. Whether those requirements would necessitate difficult changes to OSX is entirely unknown to me. So the problem of predicting Apple entrance would best be handled by someone intimate with OSX and how it would likely be required to handle protected video data. Even such a person would have a challenge since they would also have to be familiar or at least have sufficient information to make an educated guess about CableLabs' technical requirements. Even so, such an analysis would be useless in predicting a closed box Apple DVR design which presumably would pass cablelab's technical requirements more easily by blocking the possibility of untrusted processes running on the platform.

So it's a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, to borrow a phrase from Churchill.

To bring this back to the context of this thread, I was poo poo'ing Murray's suggestion that an Apple DVR might soon counter Tivo's initiative of providing a free source of video for the iPod. I no longer am confident there would necessarily be a public disclosure of Apple's efforts to become licensed as a unidirectional host by cablelabs. I suppose it is theoretically possible they already have an agreement in principle sufficient for Apple to take projects out of the lab and build advanced production prototypes.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

alinke said:


> good point, conversion would need to happen as space will be a constraint as most psp users probably have a 1 gig memory stick at the most given 2 gig memory sticks right now are very expensive.
> 
> If there was local tivo to go client application running on the psp, I would think that application could also take care of this conversion. may take a little longer than if my pc did it but I'd be willing to wait given the benefit of not having to go through the pc


the PSP is simply designed to display and play games, not do the kind of raw data conversion needed. Plus there is no room to hold something like the TiVo app anyway.

I think it is clear from the anouncement that a PC with horsepower and a large hard drive will be involved, you should just start planning for that now.


----------



## bostlaw

ZeoTiVo said:


> Folks, this thread has the first clearly worded statements from a TiVo employee (giddy up, TiVoPony  ) that full TTG will be supported on the Mac in mid-2006. There was never a date set before this one in any statement from TiVo so there was no fool me once other than TiVo hit a brickwall on Mac support and had no progress to report for quite a while. I can understand being upset about this but..
> 
> I think we can lay the Mac support issue to rest for now as the new CEO seems to have set the vision of getting a fully functional TiVoToGo out there for both platforms by mid 2006. It seems this new ToGo will be set it and forget it in the grand tradition of an easy to use TiVo product as well. This is what TiVoPony has reported in this thread and there is nothing Steve Jobs can do to stop this and TiVo is well aware they need to hit this target as well.


You may be reading his statement a bit expansively...Time will tell what transpires.


----------



## murrays

Justin Thyme said:


> To bring this back to the context of this thread, I was poo poo'ing Murray's suggestion that an Apple DVR might soon counter Tivo's initiative of providing a free source of video for the iPod. I no longer am confident there would necessarily be a public disclosure of Apple's efforts to become licensed as a unidirectional host by cablelabs. I suppose it is theoretically possible they already have an agreement in principle sufficient for Apple to take projects out of the lab and build advanced production prototypes.


Just to be clear, I was only suggesting Apples entry into DVRs as another possible reason that Apple might want to thwart TiVos efforts to load video onto iPods. To further elaborate on the speculation, the Mac Mini has a good form factor for such a device, but lacks some needed specs. Also, Apples front row software and remote point towards an interest in a multimedia set top box.

Another comment, Apple is well known for keeping their products secret and not announcing new features. Microsoft, OTOH, has a history of announcing features years in advance and, when products are released, not incorporating many of the pre announced specifications.

-murray


----------



## ZeoTiVo

bostlaw said:


> You may be reading his statement a bit expansively...Time will tell what transpires.


actually TiVoPony went a bit further than his first statement in this thread.



cwoody222 said:


> Holy sh!t... we got a statement! From someone we know! On the SAME day we asked for it! With a timeframe (vague as it may be)! Has the world stopped spinning?!
> 
> While I am suspect of the particular phrasing used "support for the *new features announced today* " will mean we still won't be able to play .tivo files on a Mac, at least this is SOMETHING.
> 
> Still ain't enough, though. But it's a start.





TiVoPony said:


> Hmmm...I see that I have to be very careful with each and every word that I choose to type.
> 
> I did not intend for my statement to exclude playback on the Macintosh. My understanding is that that should be supported as well, in the same timeframe (mid-2006).
> 
> Pony


----------



## rainwater

murrays said:


> Just to be clear, I was only suggesting Apples entry into DVRs as another possible reason that Apple might want to thwart TiVos efforts to load video onto iPods. To further elaborate on the speculation, the Mac Mini has a good form factor for such a device, but lacks some needed specs. Also, Apples front row software and remote point towards an interest in a multimedia set top box.


That is nonsense. Apple supports MPEG-4 and H.264 video on the Ipod. They can't selectively block TiVo content, because it isn't going to know that its even TiVo content.


----------



## murrays

rainwater said:


> That is nonsense. Apple supports MPEG-4 and H.264 video on the Ipod. They can't selectively block TiVo content, because it isn't going to know that its even TiVo content.


What's nonsense? Either Apple supports this or they don't and there are more than one possible reasons they don't. I never suggested that they could stop it.

-murray


----------



## vhuang

rainwater said:


> That is nonsense. Apple supports MPEG-4 and H.264 video on the Ipod. They can't selectively block TiVo content, because it isn't going to know that its even TiVo content.


Ahhh, but they probably *will* be able to know that it's Tivo content. In order to prevent a free for all of video file swapping, isn't Tivo going to put a watermark on their files identifying the subscribing offfender if the files get loose on the internet?

The same watermark could be used to block the file from desktop iTunes/iPod.

They could do this just as easily as they stopped RealNetworks from selling music for the iPod.

That would really suck!


----------



## gonzotek

murrays said:


> What's nonsense? Either Apple supports this or they don't and there are more than one possible reasons they don't. I never suggested that they could stop it.
> 
> -murray





> Just to be clear, I was only suggesting Apples entry into DVRs as another possible reason that *Apple might want to thwart TiVos efforts* to load video onto iPods.


???

I hear your main point, but the bolded text does seem to suggest more than just "either Apple supports it or they don't".


----------



## gonzotek

vhuang said:


> Ahhh, but they probably will be able to know that it's Tivo content. In order to prevent a free for all of video file swapping, isn't Tivo going to put a watermark on their files identifying the subscribing offfender if the files get loose on the internet?
> 
> They could do this just as easily as they stopped RealNetworks from selling music for the iPod.
> 
> The same watermark could be used to block the file from desktop iTunes/iPod.
> 
> That would really suck!


It depends. Will TiVo make it easy for other people(e.g. anyone not employed by TiVo) to detect and identify the watermark? If so, what's to stop someone from writing a piece of software that removes it? If not, how will Apple be able to use it?
/edit (in reply to your edit): I think the real problem Apple had with Real (sorry for the pun) was that Real had reverse-engineered FairPlay to produce FairPlay-encrypted files from Real's format. If Real had produced perfectly valid MP3s, albeit possibly with watermarking tech, do you think Apple would have had the same reaction? Of course, had Real done that, what would the copyright holders have to say about the process?


----------



## Justin Thyme

vhuang said:


> The same watermark could be used to block the file from desktop iTunes/iPod.
> 
> That would really suck!


 Such draconian moves by Apple risk alienating users and legal action against use of market dominance to squeeze out competition.

I'm with Megazone on this. There isn't a lot Jobs can directly do to stop Tivo from supporting Mac and iPods with this feature.


----------



## gonzotek

Justin Thyme said:


> Such draconian moves by Apple risk alienating users and legal action against use of market dominance to squeeze out competition.
> 
> I'm with Megazone on this. There isn't a lot Jobs can directly do to stop Tivo from supporting Mac and iPods with this feature.


Agreed. And really, why should he want to block TiVo? Someone would still have to BUY a video iPod before they could begin loading TiVo content to it, and how many people will buy it solely for that purpose. More than likely, they'll be purchasing iTunes music and videos, along with the content their TiVo pushes through to iTunes. It's much the same as the podcasting support of iTunes. Apple sells a great deal of music, but it also supports downloading free podcasts straight to the iPod. It helps keep the hardware sales going, and that's the real bread-and-butter for Apple.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Justin Thyme said:


> Such draconian moves by Apple risk alienating users and legal action against use of market dominance to squeeze out competition.
> 
> I'm with Megazone on this. There isn't a lot Jobs can directly do to stop Tivo from supporting Mac and iPods with this feature.


the only thing he could really do is identify iTunes video and only play that. That would be pointless though unless he had a very compelling video library of his own.


----------



## vhuang

gonzotek said:


> It depends. Will TiVo make it easy for other people(e.g. anyone not employed by TiVo) to detect and identify the watermark? If so, what's to stop someone from writing a piece of software that removes it? If not, how will Apple be able to use it?


People will always be able to hack and get the job done.

All this Tivo to iPod stuff is already done today by those with the time, inclination and expertise to do it.

All the "draconian" measures will do is prevent common folk from doing it.


----------



## vhuang

ZeoTiVo said:


> the only thing he could really do is identify iTunes video and only play that. That would be pointless though unless he had a very compelling video library of his own.


Either a compelling video library or agreements with the other TV networks.

This tivo to ipod thing could be just what he needs to close the deals with nbc and cbs. "Either you play with us (apple) and we both make money or people will download it from their Tivo for free and you make no money on portable digital video."

Personally, I don't think that's likely to happen (restricting video only to iTunes store purchased stuff). The genie is out of the bottle already.

As long as the ability to downoad third party video to the iPod--via podcasts, iMovie, quicktime--people will be able to get their own content, and their own shows, onto the device.


----------



## gonzotek

vhuang said:


> People will always be able to hack and get the job done.


Yes, but we're discussing this from Apple's point of view. If the watermark is detectable by Apple, it's obviously detectable by other parties as well. So if Apple is trying to block the video content based on the watermark alone, they'll eventually be unsuccessful because someone will just come up with a watermark-sanitizer program(which will almost definitely appear regardless of any action or inaction on Apple's part).


----------



## Justin Thyme

gonzotek said:


> Will TiVo make it easy for other people(e.g. anyone not employed by TiVo) to detect and identify the watermark? If so, what's to stop someone from writing a piece of software that removes it?


Well, it isn't going to be clear text, and watermarking is pretty difficult to detect. Consider the patent for the Veil watermarking technique. What they do is modulate their data by varying the luminescense of pixels from one frame to the next. Robust noise cancellation algorithms reduce the data to a crawl, but it is much better than VBI encoded data rates. Now, if all you want to do is encode a TSN, you use the same idea to quickly or slowly vary some other component of the visual signal in a way the user would not notice- such as in a non changing section of scenes throughout the video. The classic way of identifying such schemes is to analyse what is being done by comparing against the original signal, and the counter to that is to provide a number of spoofing signals to make it impossible to detect what method is being used.


----------



## morac

Apparently the networks are already up in arms over this announcement and are threateniing law suits.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117933376?categoryid=1238&cs=1&s=h&p=0


----------



## cwoody222

If they didn't sue for TiVoToGo I don't see what's different now?

(other than them losing $$$ from their own content download services)


----------



## Justin Thyme

Besides the argument that Tivo is protecting the data to the extent possible on the Apple (since they are blocked by apple from using FairPlay), they also have the FCC authorization of Tivo to go which specifically mentions portable devices.

It's way too late, and besides the dubious legal grounds for suing Tivo, from a practical standpoint there are too many big guns who would oppose the studios.

First, they are going to have to sue Microsoft as well because they started moving .Tivo files to portable devices first. Microsoft has extremely deep pockets. Not only are the studios going to lose big time, they risk getting a refinement of fair use that is not in their favor. 

Next up they will have to sue Dish Network too, because they are doing it with the Archos.

One of the first questions the court is going to ask is why the industry waited for one year after Microsoft made it's announcement that it would be providing this feature. It will look like corporate misuse of the courts to injure a vulnerable innovator if they go after Tivo and not Microsoft/ Dish.


----------



## jmoak

morac said:


> Apparently the networks are already up in arms over this announcement and are threateniing law suits.
> 
> http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117933376?categoryid=1238&cs=1&s=h&p=0


Thanks for the link, morac! and I did not even need a subscription to read it!

This should prove to be very interesting, considering the fcc regulatory approval tivo received for tivo2go last year.

... unless "distribution" can be defined as moving a show that you legally recorded for timeshifting from one device you own to another you own, or "exploitation of content" can be defined as privately watching said content outside of your home.


----------



## vhuang

cwoody222 said:


> If they didn't sue for TiVoToGo I don't see what's different now?


Three million Tivo users, probably a lot less TivoToGo users.

37 million iPod users by years end. Granted a lot fewer video ipods but enough to be a threat to their thoughts of new revenue streams.


----------



## JasonD

jstr said:


> According to cnet article :
> "TiVo will add a link to its Web site in a few weeks seeking beta testers. Candidates will need to have a broadband connection, and the company will choose testers based partly on how respondents phrase their responses to some questions."


I wonder what some of the questions might be?

Q: Do you have a Video Ipod?

A: Yes!

Q: Do you have a Tivo?

A: Yes!

Q: How has Tivo changed your life?

A: It's made me a bettor person by allowing me devote more time to charity.

Q: If you were on a life raft with Tivo and your wife and you could only save one who/what would it be.

A: Depends if I had lifetime or not.

Q: What would you be willing to do to get in on the Beta?

A: Anything.

ect.


----------



## bostlaw

Conceptually, this should not be a problem for networks in that it actually expands the viewing audience for their products...that should be a good thing...Only problem is that they want to control "distribution"...and would prefer to be paid something for the portable product... The ability to copy content over to an iPod or PSP isn't substantively different than recording the content onto DVD and watching on a portable DVD player...but there is a greater market to tap consisting of iPod owners and PSP owners than people who own portable DVD players...I commute 4 hours per day...and I never can catch up on the stuff recorded on my Tivos...I love the concept of being able to catch up on the recorded programs while sitting on the bus at night...But, there will be issues...too much potential additional profit perceived for networks to turn their backs on...they have to try something to develop a pay-per-program scheme like the Apple/ABC deal... I don't see the legal issues as any different than recording on a home vcr or dvr for personal use...but there's a buzz...and some network will attempt something in an effort to maintain control and get in on a potential new market...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

morac said:


> Apparently the networks are already up in arms over this announcement and are threateniing law suits.
> 
> http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117933376?categoryid=1238&cs=1&s=h&p=0


now this is the moment for TiVo. They have been careful up to this point. Have gotten the FCC to rule on what they are doing in broad terms and have had this out for awhile.

now they stepped on the revenue toes of the content providers and Apple. Will TiVo blink in the face of saber rattling or will they continue on with their plan to "rapidly provide new and exciting experiences for the consumer" to quote the NBC studios.


----------



## megazone

vhuang said:


> Ahhh, but they probably *will* be able to know that it's Tivo content. In order to prevent a free for all of video file swapping, isn't Tivo going to put a watermark on their files identifying the subscribing offfender if the files get loose on the internet?
> 
> The same watermark could be used to block the file from desktop iTunes/iPod.
> 
> They could do this just as easily as they stopped RealNetworks from selling music for the iPod.


No, it isn't something they can do 'just as easily'. The way they blocked Real Networks were tweaks to FairPlay to block Real's not-quite-100%-compatible reverse engineered solution. Since the TiVo watermark is embedded in the MPEG they'd have to decide the video stream to find the mark, and since every video is different that may not be so simple. Plus TiVo can just as easily tweak the watermarking.

And there is really no point in Apple doing it and facing the bad PR by blocking users from using their iPods as they want. It is just user supplied video, Apple has never done anything to block that, or user supplied music. It isn't like the iPod is a closed device that only accesses iTunes-supplied content.


----------



## BlackBetty

This is awesome news! Video iPod is now on my christmas list! and I hope that owners of video iPods are now saying "TiVo is now on my christmas list".


----------



## Cooper

How about "support for my Directivo" is on my christmas list?


----------



## Tivoli

Cooper said:


> How about "support for my Directivo" is on my christmas list?


You should call DirecTV and ask for it. It is not something Tivo can do.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Cooper said:


> How about "support for my Directivo" is on my christmas list?


 If you are technically inclined, you can transfer video onto your PSP or iPod from DirecTv. First you upgrade your DTivo by sending it to PTVupgrade. Then you download a particular program that PTV won't sell you. Then you can download the video directly to your PC. A third party tool converts the extracted video to PSP or iPod. I don't think I'm supposed to go into more details than that, but if you are interested in this sort of thing, you may find a bunch of relevant info on DaveZatz's site www.zatznotfunny.com.

Telling Directv you want this feature would definately be a good idea though. They definately won't do anything unless they hear that a lot of users really want this on their DirecTv Tivo.


----------



## Stu_Bee

With the Directv/Tivo deal basically dead, and DirecTV going with their own DVR's, I don't think they will spend any type of time/money/work on a software upgrade for the Directivos.


----------



## Cooper

Justin Thyme said:


> If you are technically inclined, you can transfer video onto your PSP or iPod from DirecTv. First you upgrade your DTivo by sending it to PTVupgrade. Then you download a particular program that PTV won't sell you. Then you can download the video directly to your PC. A third party tool converts the extracted video to PSP or iPod. I don't think I'm supposed to go into more details than that, but if you are interested in this sort of thing, you may find a bunch of relevant info on DaveZatz's site www.zatznotfunny.com.
> 
> Telling Directv you want this feature would definately be a good idea though. They definately won't do anything unless they hear that a lot of users really want this on their DirecTv Tivo.


That's awesome. I can't believe everybody doesn't know about this!

So simple.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Sure- it's exactly what I would do if I had Direct. In fact, one of the most primo DVR systems would be to get an HD direcTivo and then you can do the effective equivalent of HD TivoToGo. I have heard that you can do a firewire trick to output HD from some Cablecard boxes, but I have only read second hand info about it.

But let's be clear- this kind of thing is very much a geeky thing that most people would not be comfortable doing. It would be much better if DirecTv would allow their DirecTivo users to enjoy the same features that all other Tivo users have. When the PSP/video iPod support comes out, all tivo users should be allowed to get it.


Stu_Bee said:


> With the Directv/Tivo deal basically dead, and DirecTV going with their own DVR's, I don't think they will spend any type of time/money/work on a software upgrade for the Directivos.


Well, I don't know what part of "it's DirecTv's decision" that you don't understand. TivoPony stated that DirecTv's intransigence was the only thing blocking advanced Tivo features from being on DirecTivos. That's from the horse's mouth so to speak: 


TiVoPony said:


> Those features could work on your DIRECTV DVR with TiVo. DIRECTV has chosen not to make those features available. It is not up to TiVo.
> 
> Pony


source

Personally, I think Tivo should petition the FCC to require DirecTv to obey the law which requires all carriers to allow third parties to directly access their networks. I don't see any reason why Tivo should be prevented by DirecTv from selling DirecTivo's directly, and to take over the service of DirecTivos from new and existing DirecTivo customers. Since the DirecTivo (both SD and HD versions) is a proven design that has answerred DirecTv's security concerns, that it is a design that Tivo should be allowed to support and extend.


----------



## Rannyk

I told my grandson that he would soon be able to transfer TV shows to an Ipod via Tivo.
When his mother called called Tivo about it they said, " that it would not be available through Direct TV". Any truth to that? Arn't the majority of Tivo users connected to Direct?
I heard that you would be able to do it by using the remote. I'm learning here that you need to download to a computer. Is that correct.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Seriously everyone.

DirectTV will not allow any authorized upgrade of DirectTV TiVo DVRs and will stop deploying TiVo based DVR in favor of a box from a subsidiary -NDS. what part of this is hard to read and accept?


as for hacking a DirectTV TiVo DVR - that is a deeper subject and depends on the model number even - if it is a new R10 model for instance you have to replace a ROM chip on the system that prevents software hacks.

go to the undergorund forum here if you want to get into a full blown discussion on how to hack the unit. There are people posting there who have written the software you need.


----------



## slydog75

Rannyk said:


> I told my grandson that he would soon be able to transfer TV shows to an Ipod via Tivo.
> When his mother called called Tivo about it they said, " that it would not be available through Direct TV". Any truth to that? Arn't the majority of Tivo users connected to Direct?
> I heard that you would be able to do it by using the remote. I'm learning here that you need to download to a computer. Is that correct.


If you have a DirecTV Tivo with dual tuners then no this won't be supported with the new update (without hacking your unit). If you have a normal Tivo attached to your DirecTV reciever then this WILL work for you.

As for doing it with the remote, I don't think that's true on any unit. You'll need to download the programs from your stand alone tivo to a computer and then transfer them to your ipod.


----------



## rog

Here's a daily dose of B.S. for everyone:



http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1405 said:


> TiVo said last month that as part of its TiVoToGo service it will enable the easy transfer of recorded content to Apple's iPod and the Sony PSP.
> 
> "This is clearly not the proper way to behave," NBC Universal TV president Jeff Zucker told Variety. "*We have worked in concert with Apple to benefit the consumer; where others are not working with content providers is clearly not in the best interest of the consumer.*"


If any of my fellow laymen can explain how this is bad for the consumer, I'm all ears. 

Sheesh. When will the content producers get it?


----------



## Arcady

Yes, pan & scan copies of Battlestar Galactica at 320x240 surely benefit the consumer. Who would want to actually see the whole wide screen that was filmed and shown that way on the Sci Fi Channel? And at $1.99 it is surely a bargain.

You're right, these guys just don't get it.


----------



## HDTiVo

Arcady said:


> Yes, pan & scan copies of Battlestar Galactica at 320x240 surely benefit the consumer. Who would want to actually see the whole wide screen that was filmed and shown that way on the Sci Fi Channel? And at $1.99 it is surely a bargain.
> 
> You're right, these guys just don't get it.


Its so cool how overnight my cable bill became a bargain.

And I'm sure NBC does the right thing and letterboxes down to 320x180


----------



## ZeoTiVo

rog said:


> Here's a daily dose of B.S. for everyone:
> 
> If any of my fellow laymen can explain how this is bad for the consumer, I'm all ears.
> 
> Sheesh. When will the content producers get it?


there was something in the next sentence of that quote about pushing innovative features out to consumers quickly. Itw as the most unrealistic bullfarb I had read in a while. The guy needs to live in a small town with just basic cable for a whikle and get back to real conumer reality


----------



## DocNo

Justin Thyme said:


> So the problem of predicting Apple entrance would best be handled by someone intimate with OSX and how it would likely be required to handle protected video data.


Well, many have argued that the main reason for Apple switching to Intel was for the Intel Trusted Computing platform stuff, not just the CPU's

I still think Apple could give a flip about DVR's - that's not the future. Why try to deal with the hassle of trying to scrape content "off the air", with all the scheduling nightmares and users whining about commercials embedded in the programming when you can just sell the content commercial free on demand with no dependance on screwy networks and fussy cable/satillite companies?

Yup, the infrastructure isn't there for full resolution HD over the Internet yet, but broadband is gaining each year. And the current iTunes video offerings aren't doing too bad either, and networks seem to be falling over themselves to sign with Apple.

I know I would rather just download it than deal with scheduling crap for the shows I really like. I would still keep a DVR for "filler" material, but I would love to get all my "A list" stuff direct without commercials already. Not there yet, but give it time....


----------



## dshinnick

Boy, I am true-blue Tivo supporter; I have three. But it still amuses me that Tivo focuses on little techie things that (I believe) *most* people have little or no interest in. Do you really think that Tivo-to-go, or Tivo-to-Ipod is going to win new customers? It's like having a car that's not being well marketed, and the company offering new options on the color of the tires and expecting that to have a significant impact on sales. Offering these peripheral services won't change the big picture of mass adoption of the Tivo service. I still notice that virtually all the people I talk to about Tivo about either 1) have it and love it, or 2) have never heard of it, or have heard of it but don't really know what it does or why they need it. It's a matter of mass education, not a new tire color.

dave


----------



## ZeoTiVo

dshinnick said:


> Boy, I am true-blue Tivo supporter; I have three. But it still amuses me that Tivo focuses on little techie things that (I believe) *most* people have little or no interest in. Do you really think that Tivo-to-go, or Tivo-to-Ipod is going to win new customers? It's like having a car that's not being well marketed, and the company offering new options on the color of the tires and expecting that to have a significant impact on sales. Offering these peripheral services won't change the big picture of mass adoption of the Tivo service. I still notice that virtually all the people I talk to about Tivo about either 1) have it and love it, or 2) have never heard of it, or have heard of it but don't really know what it does or why they need it. It's a matter of mass education, not a new tire color.
> 
> dave


it is both a matter of mass education and new features. If the car looked like it was from 1960 - IE no changes made to the look but just the under the hood changes done to a modern engine/drive train and so forth it would not sell as well.

and on the subject of new cars - what about vehicles coming standard with DVD player/monitor and XM radio. seems like media delivery and mobility is of interest to *significant* numbers of consumers.

TiVo jumped on board the immdeiate buzz apple always generates with new products, and the video iPod was no different. The day after TiVo said it was going to allow movement to the iPod my local paper had a full color TiVo guy logo on it with an article about TiVo DVR and the iPod/PSP announcement. It is all linked together.

Now dual tuners and HD are definitely needed so when people or reviewers compare DVRs they start with a cable co DVR and TiVo on the same page and then talk about the differences. TiVo will then be well served by having a lot of features like this available to make sure the difference is sizeable and the sub seen as a value to the consumer


----------



## HDTiVo

dshinnick said:


> But it still amuses me that Tivo focuses on little techie things that (I believe) *most* people have little or no interest in.


These things will be most important as part of the software foundation for the next generation of TiVo hardware, which will have the power to handle them better. As far as we know, that's the HD platform. If TiVo really wants long term strength in the anaolg SA business, it will require a faster Series 2. We have a pretty good idea of where the software is going, but what they actually will do in hardware is more a mystery right now.

The most important word used in the quarterly conference call was "Insular" by CEO Rogers, as in we are not going to be as insular as we were. That means he is saying TiVo will be more open in a variety of ways which should accelerate its features and opportunities through third parties.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

HDTiVo said:


> As far as we know, that's the HD platform. If TiVo really wants long term strength in the anaolg SA business, it will require a faster Series 2. We have a pretty good idea of where the software is going, but what they actually will do in hardware is more a mystery right now.


I wonder about where the Series 2 may go as well. In the Investors power point slide they pointed out that analog cable was a large chunk of the market and there was no competition there to speak of. It seemed like they would like to get some real growth going in the analog cable market.

also in the Going into Taiwain market thread they showed a series 2 that had an ethernet port as the design that would sell there. Seems like they are breathing some new refernece design life into the series 2.


----------



## VinceA

The questions about having either a video-capable iPod or PSP have been added to the beta application site. I've already added my answers (iPod - no, PSP - yes).


----------



## jstr

dshinnick said:


> Do you really think that Tivo-to-go, or Tivo-to-Ipod is going to win new customers? It's like having a car that's not being well marketed, and the company offering new options on the color of the tires and expecting that to have a significant impact on sales. Offering these peripheral services won't change the big picture of mass adoption of the Tivo service.


By the time TiVo makes the Tivo-to-iPod feature available, there will be millions of video capable iPods out there, and that number will grow by a few million every quarter. Don't you think that many of those video-iPod owners will be looking for a less expensive solution than the $1.99 per episode that iTunes has to offer? TiVo will offer them a $12.95 per month solution (plus some up-front hardware costs) for as many episodes as their heart desires, plus having the ability to watch ANY of their favorite shows on their iPods.


----------



## rainwater

jstr said:


> By the time TiVo makes the Tivo-to-iPod feature available, there will be millions of video capable iPods out there, and that number will grow by a few million every quarter. Don't you think that many of those video-iPod owners will be looking for a less expensive solution than the $1.99 per episode that iTunes has to offer? TiVo will offer them a $12.95 per month solution (plus some up-front hardware costs) for as many episodes as their heart desires, plus having the ability to watch ANY of their favorite shows on their iPods.


Of course the quality will not be as good from the TiVo and the time it takes to transfer it will be several hours longer. I'm not saying its not a great idea, but it will not stop a lot of ipod users from using iTunes.


----------



## Justin Thyme

rainwater said:


> Of course the quality will not be as good from the TiVo


Wrong. The iTunes videos are 320 wide. The iPod is capable of 480 wide, so the Tivo can provide higher resolution video. If you mean without commercials, then 5 minutes with VideoRedo will take care of that problem on an episode- 10 minutes for a Movie. Or just FF.



rainwater said:


> transfer it will be several hours longer.


Nope. I do a lot of mpeg2->mpeg4 conversion. TTG transfer is about real time depending on model, and the mpeg4 converter I use most (divx) is a little better than real time on currently sold PCs. Even if you watched the iPod for 2 hours until the battery died and needed another 2 hours of shows, it will take you 4 hours to charge the battery. Two hours of video will be moved to your iPod before it is even done charging.

Of course mileage will vary depending on efficiency of of each person's network, processor, and what encoder that Tivo uses. But in any case it is all irrelevant because the typical mode is dock the iPod for charging, and pick it up before leaving in the morning. There is a huge amount of surplus time there, so the Tivo can be shovelling much more than 2 hours over to your iPod.

It's not like the person is standing around waiting for the transfer to happen. It's ready when the person needs it so who cares if technically speaking the transfer took 4 hours or 30 minutes. One of my computers moves the cursor forward as I type twice as fast as the other. Big deal.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Justin Thyme said:


> Wrong. The iTunes videos are 320 wide. The iPod is capable of 480 wide, so the Tivo can provide higher resolution video.


Higher resolution does not necessarily mean better quality. The ITMS downloads are most likely encoded off of studio source, or at the very least the broadcast source; the TiVo-to-iPod case is going to be encoding from whatever survives broadcast (the quality of which will depend on the TiVo's connection, i.e. RF/Cable/Sat) less any artifacts induced by the TiVo's (only passable quality) MPEG2 encoder.

That's not to say that I think that the ITMS stuff is worth the $1.99/episode asking price, mind you. I'd expect at something much closer to DVD quality to justify that amount.


----------



## davezatz

Justin Thyme said:


> If you mean without commercials, then 5 minutes with VideoRedo will take care of that problem on an episode- 10 minutes for a Movie. Or just FF.


I read in the other thread that TV Harmony will remove commercials when converting TiVo content for iPod playback. Haven't tried it yet, myself, but it sounds pretty cool. Wonder if the dude is going to start charging and/or if TiVo's announced software plans change that.

By the way, FF on the iPod is imperfect... the video frame pauses while you advance so you're never sure when to stop. You sort of get a feel for how much to move your finger, but it's not precise and you will waste time and get frustrated when you overshoot your target. At least I did. 

As far as the person complaining about transfer and conversion times, let me add my iTunes tv show download was close to real time... We'll need to factor that into the equation. Or as Justin said we can assume, whether content comes from iTunes or TiVo, it can be pushed over while we're in bed.


----------



## Justin Thyme

davezatz said:


> I read in the other thread that TV Harmony will remove commercials when converting TiVo content for iPod playback.


 I tried a commercial remover once on some Tivo content. Forget the name of the thing but it was public source and the code is being incorporated into more and more apps. Have no idea if it is the same thing. You can tune it for sensitivity so that you don't get false positives. I decided not to bother with it because incorporating it into my conversions would waste much more time than me just FF'd through them.

My general take is that if I find I am viewing a show a lot, I can always take it into videoredo and fix the commercials. I've done a few- but it's only a handful of classics.



Dennis Wilkinson said:


> .. less any artifacts.


 Theoretically speaking. But we are talking about a 2.5 inch screen here. How will anyone percieve any of these artifacts? Maybe on a TV, but then the 320 vs 480 disadvantage would also be more noticable. At worst it will be a wash on PQ. In any case, it is hard to find much merit to Rainwater's comment that the Picture Quality of Tivo generated iPod content is worse.

Dave has a more valid point on FF though. Unlike Mpeg2, I have noticed FF messed up with a lot of Mpeg4 formats and players. I don't know if it has to do with the method or how often key frames were generated or what. I say there seems to be format differences too, because my playing of WMVs on a linkplayer are smooth and I can FF past commercials with greater ease than the Divx shows. On the first press of FF, the movie will pause, and it wait while it is generating something- probably some sort of list of keyframes- this takes up to 45 seconds. Then you can FF/REW but god forbid you ever hit stop because then it will tost this list and you will have to regenerate it again. And forget about finding the exact boundary of the commerical or show. Either under or overshoot by a few seconds. Lame but dang their encoder is fast compared to other Mpeg4 encoders.

Anyway, if iPod has lame FF, then the commercials will be more annoying. I think people will blame the iPod and not Tivo for that problem though and if Apple refuses to fix it, folks may well decide to buy competitor video players that do FF better.


----------



## BlackBetty

schalliol said:


> $15 or $30 one-time fee makes this easily worth it. Jeez folks, that's a small price to pay for functionality you didn't ever expect when you bought your TiVo....Hopefully TiVoToGo will come to Mac with this, would be a reasonable time to do it. Also, I like the watermark idea, as long as they let people know about it. It can encourage people to not do illegal things with it while giving the normal folks new ways to use the content.


I see this fee going the way of the $99 HMO that is now free. mark my words.


----------



## davezatz

BlackBetty said:


> I see this fee going the way of the $99 HMO that is now free. mark my words.


While that is entirely possible, the dynamics are different. The fee will partially cover TiVo licensing a third-party codec, as opposed to something they built in-house. The good news is they still have some time to decide if they're going to charge or how much. They'll have happier customers and likely sell more boxes if they offer these features for free.... good will goes a long way. Having said that, anything under $30 is a reasonable expense I would pay.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2005-11/more-tivotogo-ipod-psp-details/


----------



## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> While that is entirely possible, the dynamics are different. The fee will partially cover TiVo licensing a third-party codec, as opposed to something they built in-house. The good news is they still have some time to decide if they're going to charge or how much. They'll have happier customers and likely sell more boxes if they offer these features for free.... good will goes a long way. Having said that, anything under $30 is a reasonable expense I would pay.
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2005-11/more-tivotogo-ipod-psp-details/


especially if they bring back that TiVo player on the PC and hook it to the codec they sell you. Ends all the hassles of viewing content on the laptop and provides the exact same interface everywhere. Also if they keep the desktop without the viewer and codec you can download the current setup for free and then choose if you want to pay for the app to make everything easier and more TiVo like.

Justin,
on my smartphone I stopped using the TiVo supplied plugin to make WMV files because mobile media player had no FF. It was incredibly annoying.
I went abck to making AVI files and playing them with an open source app called betaplayer becasue it had a configurable skip ahead function that was sweet. I set the skip forward to 15 seconds adn teh skip back to 8 seconds


----------



## JoeBarbs

logich said:


> .....when will the beta questionnaire be updated with a question about 5G iPods?


Its updated now. It asks about PSP and iPod with Video.


----------



## Big Devo

I want my iPod to play stuff through the TiVo and go through all the menu stuff just like it would on the little iPod screen on the TV.


----------



## dijkdes

I'm expecting my iPod with video to be delivered tomorrow and I can't wait to be able to watch some of my Tivo recordings on the iPod. However, I'm completely clueless as to how to do this. I know Tivo is supposed to come out with an upgrade to the software soon that will make that easy, but since I have no patience, can someone tell me how I can accomplish this now?

As I said I'm clueless, not to mention somewhat technologically challenged, so a step-by-step instruction would be much appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## davezatz

Check out TVHarmony... it's fairly simple.


----------



## lgondelman

I found another program that is similar to TV Harmony, but much quicker. Check out www.mytvtogo.com It's about $30 for the program, but works in 1/2 the time as TV Harmony does. It also will transfer the shows right to your Ipod and create a folder for them as well called "mytvtogo"


----------



## nhaigh

I'm sure that this has been posted before but I use Videora iPod Converter for downloaded files but it can do TiVi files as well. It works very well and can do batches of files which I find usefull.


----------



## MikeMar

nhaigh said:


> I'm sure that this has been posted before but I use Videora iPod Converter for downloaded files but it can do TiVi files as well. It works very well and can do batches of files which I find usefull.


I use direct show dump to convert to mpg, then video redo to cut comercials, then simply do the Videora iPod converter and it works like a charm 

I'm sure I don't need to do the direct show dump, but it is so easy, why not


----------



## MikeMar

And I just do the Videora settings of Mpeg 4 - downloaded video

I do the customer flag of -async 1 but not sure if it's needed


----------



## TivoPip

Interesting thread, but I don't use the regular PSP video player anymore anyway. Regularly the PSP only plays 320x240 video (like the iPod).  I have been using the PMPMod video player homebrew app for a while now and it plays 480x272 resolution video converted using a new version of Videora. The difference is night & day and every bit as good as a UMD movie.


----------



## Rawson819

Does anyone know the status on TiVo's supporting iPod & PSP? I did a search and didn't come up with anything. Last I'd read on another site NBC was considering a suit. Did that kill it?


----------



## cwoody222

TiVoPony said:


> Hmmm...I see that I have to be very careful with each and every word that I choose to type.
> 
> I did not intend for my statement to exclude playback on the Macintosh. My understanding is that that should be supported as well, in the same timeframe (mid-2006).
> 
> Pony


Well, TiVo finally delivered. The iPod/PSP update came today. 7 months to the day.

Sadly - but not suprisingly - there has been zero updates or movement on ANYTHING for Mac users.

Thanks for a big fat nothing, TiVo.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

cwoody222 said:


> Sadly - but not suprisingly - there has been zero updates or movement on ANYTHING for Mac users.


I don't think it "helps the cause", as it were, to make patently false statements. TiVo Desktop has indeed "shown movement" for Mac users in the interim (there have been two minor releases in that period, one which fixed the Tiger issues and a second to make things universal binary, both of which contain larger "hidden" features that illustrate progress towards full-blown TTG.) That the updates were not the one you wanted doesn't negate that there _were_ updates.

And "same timeframe" does not equal "same day". Mid-2006 is still in progress.


----------



## Bierboy

cwoody222 said:


> Well, TiVo finally delivered. The iPod/PSP update came today. 7 months to the day.
> 
> Sadly - but not suprisingly - there has been zero updates or movement on ANYTHING for Mac users.
> 
> Thanks for a big fat nothing, TiVo.





Dennis Wilkinson said:


> I don't think it "helps the cause", as it were, to make patently false statements. TiVo Desktop has indeed "shown movement" for Mac users in the interim (there have been two minor releases in that period, one which fixed the Tiger issues and a second to make things universal binary, both of which contain larger "hidden" features that illustrate progress towards full-blown TTG.) That the updates were not the one you wanted doesn't negate that there _were_ updates.
> 
> And "same timeframe" does not equal "same day". Mid-2006 is still in progress.


I have to agree with both of you to some extent. I've been a Mac user for 18 years and a TiVo user for only two years. Yes, there is some indication of "movement" on the Mac side of things, but I agree with cwoody222....this is a big fat nothing for Mac users. There's always a big splash when TiVo releases something for the Windoze abusers, but zippo for the Mac users.


----------



## megazone

Bierboy said:


> There's always a big splash when TiVo releases something for the Windoze abusers, but zippo for the Mac users.


Which is the bigger potential market to sell TiVo to? Windows, overwhelmingly. It makes more sense to make a bigger deal out of Windows-related updates because they'll get more return on any marketing investment. It isn't just TiVo - blogs, tech press, etc, all seem to make a bigger deal out of the Windows releases. It just matters to more people.

I'm sure TiVo is also well aware of their own user base and what kind of downloads they have on existing software, and perhaps what kind of systems are sharing the LAN with each TiVo (not hard to determine if they wanted to).


----------



## cwoody222

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> I don't think it "helps the cause", as it were, to make patently false statements. TiVo Desktop has indeed "shown movement" for Mac users in the interim (there have been two minor releases in that period, one which fixed the Tiger issues and a second to make things universal binary, both of which contain larger "hidden" features that illustrate progress towards full-blown TTG.) That the updates were not the one you wanted doesn't negate that there _were_ updates.
> 
> And "same timeframe" does not equal "same day". Mid-2006 is still in progress.


Fair enough.

However, it's the absolute slowest moving "progress" one could possibly hope for...


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

megazone said:


> It isn't just TiVo - blogs, tech press, etc, all seem to make a bigger deal out of the Windows releases.


I don't know that I necessarily agree -- most of the tech blogs and news sites that cover such things, particularly those that focus on TiVo and other DVRs, give pretty much equal time to Mac and Windows releases from TiVo. Apple and things Apple-related do get discussed in the tech press far in excess of their market share.

The "big splash" difference in TiVo's announcements stems from the releases themselves. Windows TiVo Desktop 2.3 adds a major new feature or two; the two Mac releases I mention are, so far as TiVo itself is concerned, bug fix releases. New features imply bigger announcement. Most of the real advances in the two Mac releases are undocumented -- they still show forward progress, but it's not something I'd expect to see TiVo trumpeting from the ramparts.

Having been in TiVos [engineer's] shoes (being an engineer on a product that had a group of vocal users who wanted a feature that wasn't our A-number-one priority, but that we were making real progress on and which took several releases to complete and enable), I suppose all this just hits a pet peeve of mine.


----------



## Bierboy

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> ...I suppose all this just hits a pet peeve of mine.


...and, unfortunately, we're all too used to it


----------



## Judy Brager

Is there any way to copy from Tivo to Go to a Nintendo DS Lite? I have the Max 4GB HDD and would love to take my Tivo with me.
TIA, Judy


----------



## davezatz

As far as I know, the DS does not have a built in video playing software. But there are some movie players carts out there that accept various flash memory. Lik Sang has a few: http://www.lik-sang.com/list.php?nav=over&category=246&PHPSESSID=f6dd88d7afd79f9a1c168af22bf90960

One model is actually a Nintendo line called Play-Yan, only sold in Japan (for now?) though Lik Sang imports them. I think all of these play flavors of MP4.


----------



## cwoody222

TiVoPony said:


> Hmmm...I see that I have to be very careful with each and every word that I choose to type.
> 
> I did not intend for my statement to exclude playback on the Macintosh. My understanding is that that should be supported as well, in the same timeframe (mid-2006).
> 
> Pony


Hey Pony... just curious... is this still your understanding?


----------



## cwoody222

Guess not huh?

Whatever. TiVo lies. I didn't expect anything different.


----------



## davezatz

cwoody222 said:


> TiVo lies.


I think there's a difference between lying to deceive someone and missing a target - which is probably what we have here. A status update, or better yet a release, is overdue... but I don't know that anyone has intentionally lied.


----------



## cwoody222

http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2181.htm?

They're "working hard" and "currently working". I - frankly - don't believe that. I don't think they're doing anything at all. I think (based on nothing more than the fact that it shouldn't take anyone this long to do something like this) that development has stopped.

So in my mind, they have an official statement leading us to believe that they are currently developing a product and they have a real intent to deliver a product.

I don't believe them. At all. Why should I? What do I have to go by other than a few photos running VLC 9 months ago and a vague statement from Pony last November?

They have to EARN my trust and my faith. They've done neither. And with each passing day they lose me more and more.

TiVo - prove me wrong. Update your FAQ. Give us a statement (even something vague and unofficial). Their silence speaks volumes. They don't say anything because they have nothing to say.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

cwoody said:


> So in my mind, I don't believe them.


Which is fine for you but perhaps we do not know what TiVo is actually running into as issues. Why would they NOT want to deliver TTG for Mac? Why would they deliberately lie as a company? 
The benefit of the Mac subscriptions retained would not outweigh the loss of good will. I think what we see in public on this issue speaks to the fact that TiVo ran into a real road block on this issue that they can not discuss in public. That speaks to me of negotiations with Apple that are not progressing as desired. Anyhow that is what is in my mind.


----------



## Welshdog

Seems to me that one explaination for a lack of information would be that Tivo is working closely with Apple on something. Tivo would then be expected to keep quiet on all details of the project. Even if an Apple/Tivo collaboration was not specifically about TTG it might behoove Tivo to remain mum on that front as well. Then both projects could be presented at the same time.

Who knows, we'll see.


----------



## TiVoPony

cwoody222 said:


> Hey Pony... just curious... is this still your understanding?


We have commented on this more recently, I recall an interview with Jim Denney that circulated here not long ago. He said that we're continuing to work on it, and we are.

I don't have a revised date to give you. What I said last November was truthful, however supporting the Macintosh is significantly more difficult than it should be.

It is well understood within TiVo that we do not yet offer TTG support for Macintosh, it has not been set aside or forgotten. I do not though have a revised date to share. I'll pass along new information as soon as I am able to.

I understand if some folks continue to express skepticism. I'm sorry if you feel that way, but I don't believe anything that we tell you will change your views, short of putting the software in your hands. And that's what we're working towards.

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## HDTiVo

TiVoPony said:


> We have commented on this more recently, I recall an interview with Jim Denney that circulated here not long ago. He said that we're continuing to work on it, and we are.
> 
> I don't have a revised date to give you. What I said last November was truthful, however supporting the Macintosh is significantly more difficult than it should be.
> 
> It is well understood within TiVo that we do not yet offer TTG support for Macintosh, it has not been set aside or forgotten. I do not though have a revised date to share. I'll pass along new information as soon as I am able to.
> 
> I understand if some folks continue to express skepticism. I'm sorry if you feel that way, but I don't believe anything that we tell you will change your views, short of putting the software in your hands. And that's what we're working towards.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


That was a very fair update. You did the right thing for the people who are interested.


----------



## jfh3

Great answer Pony, especially the last sentance.

I'm not a Mac user, but can understand their frustration - I've been waiting for the Series 3 for two years ...


----------



## cwoody222

TiVoPony said:


> I'm sorry if you feel that way, but I don't believe anything that we tell you will change your views, short of putting the software in your hands.


Yup. It's LONG past due to put up or shut up.


----------



## cwoody222

Why do you all suddenly thing there are these "negotiations" going on with Apple? There weren't negotiations needed with Microsoft for the Windows version. Nor with the iPod/PSP update. Did TiVo have to have negotiations with Sony?

I think all of you who think the holdup being some huge deal with Apple / iTunes / the upcoming iTues Movie Store are going to be sadly disappointed. There's NO evidence that's TiVo's working on anything, let alone working on something this big. Past Mac support also certainly doesn't seem to lead to the conclusion that TiVo's been big Apple fans and supporters in the past.


They could release an update that lets Mac users pull un-DRM'ed shows (which is what the iPod and PSP versions are) to their Mac for playback.

They could release an update that lets Mac users play watermarked shows.

They could release an update that works with their dongle-solution.

Hell, they could at least release an update that - officially - allows GoBack functionality. They haven't even done THAT yet. Customers are expected to read about a hack or use Galleon. Why haven't they even done THAT yet?! 'Cause they don't care about Mac users.

Instead they are still stymied by their own decision to use their own DRM scheme which they knew wouldn't work on Macs. They just keep beating that dead horse instead of finding a quicker path to get us Mac users the support we deserve... and have deserved for going on 2 years.


----------



## backspaces

TiVoPony said:


> I don't have a revised date to give you. What I said last November was truthful, however supporting the Macintosh is significantly more difficult than it should be.
> ...
> Cheers,
> Pony


I agree .. its hard to do many things. However, if I may humbly comment: The Right Solution is to produce non-platform specific solutions rather than a Windows version, a Mac version, and gawd help us, a Nokia solution, a Palm Treo solution, a WinMobile5 solution and so on.

There is a simple solution that ALL platforms can successfully use: the network. If TiVo would convert to a web services approach: the TiVo is a very simple home http service (much like LinkSys and other home routers, for example), it could support podcast/RSS to iTunes and other podcast desktop managers.

To be clear then, all my TiVo content that is not copywrite protected could simply be made available to any computer via "the web" .. i.e. my internal home network. Think of it as the TiVo Desktop in reverse: the TiVo Web Service.

This would be *very* easy to implement. Yes, the follow-on services themselves (transcoding to iPod, for example) would then be a bit more complicated, with TiVo carefully deciding what formats to support and so on. But the standards are there, and TiVo would simply be providing a simple, elegant, existing solution to a problem that has been bothering them for ages.

Owen http://backspaces.net/


----------



## mtchamp

I've been reading here and there that the rumor that Apple is doing the movie rental launch soon is for certain. The rumor that TiVo will be part of the movie rental service or that Apple will be part of the Series3 release is pure speculation. There has been no reliable information for any collaboration between TiVo and Apple on the Series3 rollout or iTunes Store Movie Rental launch.

What makes the rumor of Apple and TiVo doing a Series3/Movie Rental deal strong is the that the timing of both events are widely accepted to happen during the same week 09/10-09/17. I happen to think it's highly probable that TiVo's movie downloading service of Hollywood films is about to begin. I have long thought the Series3 premium product would be marketed in partnership with a content provider.


----------



## cwoody222

mtchamp said:


> I happen to think it's highly probable that TiVo's movie downloading service of Hollywood films is about to begin. I have long thought the Series3 premium product would be marketed in partnership with a content provider.


Keep dreaming.

Their only close call here was their Netflix deal which has been known to have ground to a halt due to Netflix not have digital download rights.

The connection between TiVo Mac ToGo support and an Apple iTunes Music Store is nothing more than fanboy dreams.


----------



## Bierboy

cwoody222 said:


> Yup. It's LONG past due to put up or shut up.


Hey...that's definitely not a nice thing to say. He's being honest here....and polite. Which is more than I can say for you.


----------



## cwoody222

I was simply agreeing with Pony.

The only thing that will convince me (us?) now is actual software.

I've heard enough non-announcements and excuses and apologies. The only thing I'll accept now (short of a "we've stopped development, it's not coming ever") is the actual software in my darn hands (relatively speaking, of course).

Hence, "put up" (give me software) or "shut up" (I've heard enough)


----------



## Bierboy

I guess that goes back to my days as a kid when my folks always emphasized that "shut up" was never a nice thing to say. But I understand what you're saying. I apologize.


----------



## cwoody222

Sorry if it came off too harsh. (but not like I'm being that nice, after all  )

"put up or shut up" is a (well?) known phrase. I didn't pick the words to be mean, I just used the phrase because it fit. I can see how you took it another way, though.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

cwoody222 said:


> TiVo - prove me wrong. Update your FAQ. Give us a statement (even something vague and unofficial). Their silence speaks volumes. They don't say anything because they have nothing to say.


it was harsh in light of the fact you asked TiVo to make some kind of statement, then you get pissed at the unsurprising vagueness of TiVoPony's post and go with Put up or shut up. - well don't keep asking them to say something then.


----------



## megazone

backspaces said:


> There is a simple solution that ALL platforms can successfully use: the network. If TiVo would convert to a web services approach: the TiVo is a very simple home http service (much like LinkSys and other home routers, for example), it could support podcast/RSS to iTunes and other podcast desktop managers.


Not going to happen, because the industry will not allow it. Any vendor who has made digitally recorded TV content openly shareable on a network has been pounced on - see also ReplayTV. Nearly all of the content on your TiVo is copyright protected - the default is that content is protected. To get approval for TiVoToGo back before they released it, TiVo had to include DRM. That was, and is, the only option in the current legal environment.

They're treading a bit dangerously with the new TiVo Desktop 2.3, which removes the DRM to convert for other platforms (like iPod). They're trying to apease the powers that be by making the conversion process add a watermark to the video to be able to track it to the offending user. So far, so good. But NBC, and others, have grumbled about it and hinted towards legal action over TiVo making their content portable.

An open solution, like an open web service, is simply not viable for a commercial vendor such as TiVo. They would be crushed by lawsuits, just like ReplayTV, because the content owners are dead set against making their content too freely available. They want to be able to sell you iTunes downloads, DVDs, etc.

The only way this works is for things like MythTV, where there isn't come central entity for them to sue.


----------



## eschasi

While I appreciate your posting here (and you're a brave guy to do it), since you are in the marketing group I need to ding your group on something.

Q: What's worse than not delivering on what you told your customers you'd do?

A: Keeping them in the dark when when that failure occurs.

I'm not singling you out personally, but this is marketing and sales 101 stuff. Keep your customers in the dark, and when you turn the lights back on they'll be gone. Thus far, Tivos performance on Mac-based software is almost a textbook example of how to do it wrong.

You're absolutely right - it's good not to give out bad data. But refusing to give out a date isn't the way to fix it. It's a way of telling us even less than you told us before, keeping us further in the dark.

Yet you claim that it's being worked on. Sorry, the performance doesn't support that claim. I've look at past performance and reduced information and can only come to the conclusion that it's not a priority, it wasn't a priority, and it's not likely to be a priority.

Furthermore, watching the open source community eat your developers lunch only makes the claims of difficulty less credible. For the record, I'm a 30-year software developer and have some minor understanding of the problems.

Does TiVo want to fix this problem? Seriously? Then start co-operating with the open source community and let them carry the ball that TiVo has so badly fumbled. Take the tiny fraction of the programming staff who are working on this, remove the coding responsibility from their hands, and let them be liason to the oss people who can do the work and who care more than TiVo about the solution. You'll be wildly surprised when they create things that put your current efforts to shame and (probably) work fine on Macs, and Windows, and Linux. After all, it's open source stuff that runs inside a TiVo. It's possible to make pretty cool stuff (and a profit too) when you do it openly and co-operatively rather than keeping it all in the dark.

Let a little light in. It's good for all of us.

Best,

Steve


----------



## eschasi

Well, judging from what TiVo and Roxio have done for us, that was a complete and utter waste of time.


----------



## Redux

eschasi said:


> Well, judging from what TiVo and Roxio have done for us, that was a complete and utter waste of time.


Well, it may be that what was being worked on simply didn't pan out, and this Roxio thing was an emergency bailout plan. Obviously it didn't take years to create that, no more than a few days (I would hope). Perhaps the original project will continue and a real product will emerge at some point in the future.


----------



## Dan203

Redux said:


> Well, it may be that what was being worked on simply didn't pan out, and this Roxio thing was an emergency bailout plan. Obviously it didn't take years to create that, no more than a few days (I would hope). Perhaps the original project will continue and a real product will emerge at some point in the future.


I recently started writing code professionally, and believe me even the simplest programs take more then a few days. Something like this probably took months.

Dan


----------



## eschasi

Dan203 said:


> I recently started writing code professionally, and believe me even the simplest programs take more then a few days. Something like this probably took months.
> 
> Dan


I've got 30 years on ya, and can firmly say "It depends."  But yes, from the description I've seen of the functionality, it was probably at least some months from starting work to when the product made it thru Quality Assurence.


----------



## Redux

eschasi said:


> it was probably at least some months from starting work to when the product made it thru Quality Assurence.


Well, I was making the assumption that customers are going to be the alpha testers, but if this is in fact a mature product, sure, could have taken a little while. Week and a half, even two.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

eschasi said:


> I've got 30 years on ya, and can firmly say "It depends."  But yes, from the description I've seen of the functionality, it was probably at least some months from starting work to when the product made it thru Quality Assurence.


you seem to be totally overlooking the DRM required by the legal environment. This is not a simple case of take this input - convert it this way and that way then apply some expertise in video playing or DVD burning to it to finish it off.

The main reason TiVo has always lagged the open source and hacker community is because they have to play in the DRM world and make sure they have done enough due dilligence to not get sued and that the product work across all their platforms in a customer supportable way.

they came close enough to bad tidings with the roxio partnership and the sudden appearence of open source TiVoDecoder. The anouncment on Zatz Not Funny noted that TiVo had to share DRM decryption detials with Roxio and I find it less than coincidental that the open source - reverse engineering of that DRM decryption appears in the wild around the same time.


----------



## MickeS

Redux said:


> Well, I was making the assumption that customers are going to be the alpha testers, but if this is in fact a mature product, sure, could have taken a little while. Week and a half, even two.


Two weeks? What are you smoking? Hell, a code change of two lines takes that long to get through all the hoops.


----------



## Dan203

ZeoTiVo said:


> The anouncment on Zatz Not Funny noted that TiVo had to share DRM decryption detials with Roxio and I find it less than coincidental that the open source - reverse engineering of that DRM decryption appears in the wild around the same time.


TiVo has had a relationship with Sonic (now Roxio) for a couple of years now, and they had to give up details about their decryption scheme from day one. This is evidenced by the fact that the MyDVD software has access to the metadata, which I know for a fact requires full access to their decryption scheme to get at. So the release of the tivodecode program is purely conicidence.

Dan


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Dan203 said:


> TiVo has had a relationship with Sonic (now Roxio) for a couple of years now, and they had to give up details about their decryption scheme from day one. This is evidenced by the fact that the MyDVD software has access to the metadata, which I know for a fact requires full access to their decryption scheme to get at. So the release of the tivodecode program is purely conicidence.
> 
> Dan


but on the windows desktop they could simply access the tivodesktop.dll when decryption was needed adn not really know the inside details.

with the Mac product the Roxio software engineers most likely had to code up the decryption within their own source code.

all speculation but TiVodecode is definitely a reverse engineering of the DLL from somewhere.


----------



## gonzotek

ZeoTiVo said:


> all speculation but TiVodecode is definitely a reverse engineering of the DLL from somewhere.


Search google for "tivo wiki horkuu"(unquoted) There is a wiki that is a technical discussion by some fairly smart people, which pretty much explains the whole tivodecode story, from understanding the basic file headers all the way to the working decoder, over a period of many months. There's really no speculation about how the tivodecode app came about, its pretty well documented.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

gonzotek said:


> Search google for "tivo wiki horkuu"(unquoted) There is a wiki that is a technical discussion by some fairly smart people, which pretty much explains the whole tivodecode story, from understanding the basic file headers all the way to the working decoder, over a period of many months. There's really no speculation about how the tivodecode app came about, its pretty well documented.


Thanks Gonzo. Guess I should read the HME forum more often.


----------

