# Good news!!!!



## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

From Tivo central:

Unofficial TiVo guide service - status & signup


Tivo announced today it will be cease the data download service for UK Thomson TiVos on June 1st,
nearly 11 years after it was introduced as the UK's first PVR.

"On 1 June 2011, TiVo will be discontinuing the service for Series1 TiVo
Recorders in the UK. Your current service will continue to be provided until
that time at no charge. For further information, go to tivo.com/UKSeries1."
Read the announcement in full at TiVo's website here
Unofficial service

An unofficial replacement service is already under active development
A new hard drive will be required 
- purchased from us - recent customers may return their drives for a free re-image
This service will not be active until after 1st June 2011


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## Nimbus (May 29, 2004)

One assumes that should this replacement epg work, then the image needed will also be freely available.

So people will be able to make their own new hard drives, if they want, rather than paying..

Unless 'Tivo central' are doing this in parallel to the guys at Tivoland


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## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

Well don't care if i have to pay! I have Sky HD (and had Sky+) but nothing is better than my Tivo.

I've only had it since last year, but i love my Tivo and its remote so much.

Wish lists, season pass, thumbs up, thumbs down, and instant replay - Sky does not have any of them. Sky+ is just like it says, "a video recorder with out tapes" and yes it has series link but its no way as good as a season pass!

Put simply Tivo was and still is the best PVR on the planet!!!


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

crossdynamite said:


> Sky+ is just like it says, "a video recorder with out tapes"
> 
> Put simply Tivo was and still is the best PVR on the planet!!!


My Video Recorder was much better than SKY+, it never failed to record a program due a non-existant powercut and the only time Tivo let me down was when the SKY box locked up !


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## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

Even a freesat PVR is better than Sky+. lets say you want to recoded a program on ITV1 HD on freesat but set the program to recoded via ITV1 SD, it will record the the program on ITV1 HD, and if you can't record a program because it clashes with another program, freesat, like Tvio will give you a list of options like recoding the program at a different time or day.

So would you not say that Sky needs to learn something from Tivo and even freesat!

Also forgot to say, a tivo season pass lasts forever once set up, where as a Sky series link only lasts a month if the program is not on for more than 30 days!

And what I don't like about Sky is the way you can't hide the channels you don't get! Sky have said it can't been done! But u can do it on tivo freesat and even on freeview!!


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## djqster (Oct 22, 2010)

crossdynamite said:


> And what I don't like about Sky is the way you can't hide the channels you don't get! Sky have said it can't been done! But u can do it on tivo freesat and even on freeview!!


Of course it could be done. Sky just want you to see that 'Pay us money to get this channel' message when you try to watch a program you might like.

I got a Sky+HD and it's a miserable piece of crap. I was planning to return to TiVo when my Sky contract is up in the middle of April...


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## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

I'd return mate! and if you don't know a Sky HD box can be controlled by Tivo. So if u don't want pay TV from sky, no need to get a freesat box, just use your Sky HD.


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## djqster (Oct 22, 2010)

crossdynamite said:


> I'd return mate! and if you don't know a Sky HD box can be controlled by Tivo. So if u don't want pay TV from sky, no need to get a freesat box, just use your Sky HD.


Yep, I know that. But the Sky+HD is prone to locking up and uses a fair bit of power too. I already bought my TiVo a Philips freeview box intending to use the TV's tuner to make up for TiVo's single tuner. I don't actually have a terrestrial aerial on the house at the moment so it's satellite or nothing right now.
I could use TiVo and the two old Sky boxes I have in the garage but that would make for a lot of boxes & wires around the place.


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## Fred Smith (Oct 5, 2002)

Nimbus said:


> One assumes that should this replacement epg work, then the image needed will also be freely available.
> 
> So people will be able to make their own new hard drives, if they want, rather than paying..
> 
> Unless 'Tivo central' are doing this in parallel to the guys at Tivoland


I think you will find the owner of TiVo Central recently signed up on Tivoland.

http://www.tivoland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=521&highlight=#521


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## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

Also, would they be any way you think, that on the new hard drive, you could get rid of skys search and scan banner when viewing via tivo.

Looks stupid, having tivo's banner at the top and skys at the bottom! Or does know one else really mind?

I know you can hide the banner on sky, but as always its sky, so u cant get rid of it all together!!!


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Mike at Tivo Central here 


 yep - I'm part of the "team" at dave's forum - which is just a convenient place - whatever we end up with - it won't be exclusive to tivocentral or tivoland...


 *I'm just informing all TiVo owners that June 1st is not the end *


 Most owners don't want to know who's working on what script etc - just what it means to them - i.e. replace drive - job done.


 if you want to delve in and make your own image, go ahead... same as before.


 most owners can't / won't fiddle with drive images etc - that's why I've been selling preconfigured upgrade drives for the past few years.


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## geekspeak (Oct 1, 2002)

mikerr said:


> replace drive - job done.


No network card needed? Freephone daily call number?

Also (not sure best way to ask) but are there no copyright issues of the epg data. i.e. Will all this be 100% legal? (Not for one second suggesting otherwise, just asking how this works.)


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

geekspeak said:


> No network card needed? Freephone daily call number?


Dial-up should be possible, and I'm going to be working on that, but probably not on a freephone number, unless you know of anybody willing to foot the bill? A geographic or uk-wide (03) number is probably what we'll end up with, but at least if you have inclusive calls on your line they will still be free.


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## BlackPrince (May 16, 2009)

That all sounds very promising. What's the relationship between "irrelevant" & "mikerr", though - are you both speaking for TivoCentral?


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

Nope, I'm just a user, contributing to the forums with ideas, although I seem to be the only one talking about dial-up users. 

So, I'm doing my bit and currently setting up a test dial-up server with firewall to allow IP redirection (so as to point unmodified TiVos at the replacement server) to see if we can allow non-networked machines access. I've got most of the kit and resources required already, so it's just a case of putting in a bit of time setting it all up. Oddly, the only thing I didn't have spare was a suitable modem, so been busy on eBay this weekend - seems all my usual suppliers don't stock anything dial-up any more. Apparently nobody uses it.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

BlackPrince said:


> That all sounds very promising. What's the relationship between "irrelevant" & "mikerr", though - are you both speaking for TivoCentral?


Well Mike is TivoCentral but irrelevant is a forum member I know rather better from the www.saynoto0870.com discussion forum, assuming that he's the same guy? He won't recognise me as I'm known as NGMsGhost over there.

If irrelevant, as an avid saynopto0870'er, does have any input then I certainly hope that an 03 number will definitely be used to replace the 0800 as I can see the obvious temptation for Mike or Dave to set up an 0844 or even an 0871 number and then take a rake off the not insubstantial daily data retrieveal call stream.

I personally will still be campaigning for Tivo to change its mind for the time being as I don't think it can possibly justify its decision politically in the middle of a full UK relaunch. Also for all the criticism Tribune has got over the years I rather suspect any replacement service will be less good than we have now (perhaps only 7 days instead of 21 days data and/or much poorer Metadata for Wishlists) although I would expect some of the channels that Tribune has turned a blind eye to the launch of such as CBS Drama to also have data in the new unofficial Tivo service.

I don't like the sound of having to fully reimage the drive and lose all my current recordings though. Surely as I have a Cachecard network card connection there must be a way to just upload an install file for the new operating system on to the existing drive?


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

Pete77 said:


> I can see the obvious temptation for Mike or Dave to set up an 0844 or even an 0871 number and then take a rake off the not insubstantial daily data retrieveal call stream.


The statement has been made that this project will be non commercial.

Alek


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

alek said:


> The statement has been made that this project will be non commercial


Yet strangely a lot of non commercial organisations have very eagerly made use of 084 and 087 numbers.

The usual excuse given is that the revenue made from these numbers merely goes towards covering their operating overheads. Take NHS Direct for instance.


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Well Mike is TivoCentral but irrelevant is a forum member I know rather better from the www.saynoto0870.com discussion forum, assuming that he's the same guy? He won't recognise me as I'm known as NGMsGhost over there.


Yep that's me. Not been over there for a while; other things been taking up a lot of my time.



> If irrelevant, as an avid saynopto0870'er, does have any input then I certainly hope that an 03 number will definitely be used to replace the 0800 as I can see the obvious temptation for Mike or Dave to set up an 0844 or even an 0871 number and then take a rake off the not insubstantial daily data retrieveal call stream.


I looked into using an 0871, briefly, thinking it might help cover running costs. But at 10p+10p/min to call with a call every day, £6 a month in call costs before you even start... of which maybe 30p will be received by the owner .. no thank you!!

Initial tests will be on an 0161 number, because I have a spare landline here I can co-opt for the purpose, if I can get away with dropping a telephone cable down three flights of stairs .... Then, if that works, I've got a VoIP delivered 03 number I'll try it out on. If that proves reliable, it'll be easier to provision more lines that way than using real landlines.

I'm also, in parallel, looking into a completely software method too, which would also be on an 03.

OK, it'll cost to call, but I hope most people will be on a package that allows for inclusive calls most of the time.



> I personally will still be campaigning for Tivo to change its mind for the time being as I don't think it can possibly justify its decision politically in the middle of a full UK relaunch. Also for all the criticism Tribune has got over the years I rather suspect any replacement service will be less good than we have now (perhaps only 7 days instead of 21 days data and/or much poorer Metadata for Wishlists) although I would expect some of the channels that Tribune has turned a blind eye to the launch of such as CBS Drama to also have data in the new unofficial Tivo service.


Agreed on both points.



> I don't like the sound of having to fully reimage the drive and lose all my current recordings though. Surely as I have a Cachecard network card connection there must be a way to just upload an install file for the new operating system on to the existing drive?


Some of the work being done, not by me so I'm unsure as to the exact implications, is to extract the current channel IDs etc., rather than just allocating afresh. I'm hopefull this will allow for a more seamless transition.. But yes, install should at worst be download some scripts and run them.


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## BrianHughes (Jan 21, 2001)

VoIP is unlikely to work with a dialup modem as the bandwidth is just too restricted. However as you'll be limited to 33.6k anyway (56k only works with specialist receiver equipment at the ISP) perhaps you'll be lucky. 

A standard 01 number should be fine, although you'll be stuck with line rental costs.


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

BrianHughes said:


> VoIP is unlikely to work with a dialup modem as the bandwidth is just too restricted. However as you'll be limited to 33.6k anyway (56k only works with specialist receiver equipment at the ISP) perhaps you'll be lucky.


Using G711 there is no compression, and minimal latency, and as it matches the encoding already in use on the PSTN networks, I'm hoping it should perform as well as a POTS line. I already run V23 over it with no issues at all, so am hoping I can get V32bis without too many problems.


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## BlackPrince (May 16, 2009)

Pete77 said:


> I don't think it can possibly justify its decision politically


Eh?


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## BlackPrince (May 16, 2009)

Thanks for the overview of your excellent work, Mikerr and irrelevant. I'll pop over to the tivoland forums to see if I can help.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

mikerr said:


> Mike at Tivo Central here
> 
> 
> yep - I'm part of the "team" at dave's forum - which is just a convenient place - whatever we end up with - it won't be exclusive to tivocentral or tivoland...


Thanks for clearing that up Mike.

Just to re-iterate what Mike's said, the alternative EPG will be a community (not to be confused with the tivocommunity forums)  driven project just like the ones in Australia, Canada etc.

Whilst the project is hosted over at the tivoland.com forums, Mike and I will both be integral parts of the project.

I think we have proved that after years of offering service & support to Tivo users in the UK, that we have staying power and are happy to go providing support for years to come, so its appropriate for us to be involved in the project. Whilst we do have a vested interest with our spare part businesses, no part of the new epg project will be commercial and or linked to either tivoland or tivocentral.

Just to back that up, the emulation software has licensing restrictions preventing it from being used commercially!

We started out hobbyists just like most Tivo users and I'm pretty sure I speak for both of us when I say over the last few years, continuing these businesses are more of a hobby than ever!
Tivo abandoning hardware in the Uk for several years and Sky essentially shafting Tivo with Sky+ being the route causes


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

BlackPrince said:


> Eh?


Tivo dumping all its most loyal S1 customers just when it is trying to re-establish the Tivo brand for new UK sales with a new UK partner (Virgin) is clearly a politically (with a small p) unwise move as many of the people who might have most promoted the new Tivo the most to their friends and relatives in Virgin Media land now telling them not to touch it with a barge pole.

If you think politics is only putting a ballot paper in a ballot box and don't understand the term more widely then that's entirely up to you.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

TiVo isn't reestablishing the TiVo brand, Virgin is. If they saw merit in your argument I'm sure they'd have asked TiVo to keep the service going. Guess thay don't.

You going to come over to TivoLand to help out make the new EPG, or just sit here and imagine TiVo will change their minds?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Tivo dumping all its most loyal S1 customers just when it is trying to re-establish the Tivo brand for new UK sales with a new UK partner (Virgin) is clearly a politically (with a small p) unwise move as many of the people who might have most promoted the new Tivo the most to their friends and relatives in Virgin Media land now telling them not to touch it with a barge pole.


"I had this Series 1 Tivo. There is a newer version around that you'd love, but don't get it 'cos I hate Tivo right now."

Yeah, that's a really well-thought-out argument 

I had a S1 Tivo. I _know_ how good it was and I would happily reccommend _anyone_ to get one from VM if they can.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> the people who might have most promoted the new Tivo the most to their friends and relatives in Virgin Media land now telling them not to touch it with a barge pole..


Yeah, we've been so badly treated only having continued support for nine years after the hardware was discontinued. What appalling service. And a terrible product.

Get a grip.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> "I had this Series 1 Tivo. There is a newer version around that you'd love, but don't get it 'cos I hate Tivo right now."
> 
> Yeah, that's a really well-thought-out argument


No don't get it because the company can't be trusted as they let us Tivo S1 owners down by withdrawing service from 50% of the UK even though all those customers were happy with the service is my position.

I presume your constant two fingers up at those of us living outside Virgin cable land is your form of revenge on all those of who wisely bought a Tivo Lifetime subscription while you did not.:down::down::down:


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Yeah, we've been so badly treated only having continued support for nine years after the hardware was discontinued. What appalling service. And a terrible product.


But our Tivo S1 products still work and 50% of us have no upgrade path to a replacment product is the point.

It is the lack of an upgrade path to a new model outside Virgin Tivo land that makes it incumbent on Tivo to go on offering service to those customers. Also even within Virgin cable land their early adopter pricing for the new Virgin Tivo is far too high to justify cutting off service to the S1 units at this stage.

They should have waited until they had rolled out the Tivo interface across all of their existing customer base.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I presume your constant two fingers up at those of us living outside Virgin cable land is your form of revenge on all those of who wisely bought a Tivo Lifetime subscription while you did not.:down::down::down:


I have *never* "put two fingers up" to *anyone* on this Forum; ever, and I resent the implication that I have.

I asked someone previously to point out any of my supposed "gloating/bragging" posts. That was yesterday and I'm still waiting. I guess he couldn't actually find any. So, same challenge to you. Please link to any "two finger" posts I have made recently. (And I mean _actual_ "two fingers" posts, not just your interpretation of them.)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> I have *never* "put two fingers up" to *anyone* on this Forum; ever, and I resent the implication that I have.


And you have gone on and on ever since the announcement of the new Virgin Tivo with your position that the sun shines out of Virgin' back side and they can do no wrong because you happen to live in an area where you can have a new Tivo.

You have consistently shown no sympathy or understanding whatsoever towards those of us who have had a Tivo for many years, cannot get a new Virgin model replacement and are now to have the old Tivo service disconnected at what is clearly some Virgin marketing man's behest (i.e. that due to the usual childhish rivalry between Virgin and Sky they take the view that there must not be any Tivo in operation in the UK that can support the reception of services broadcast by their main rival - Sky).

Why do you always feel the need to resort to calling someone a fool or an idiot when you disagree with them. Presumably that must be a sign that you realise you have lost the argument.


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## smatson (Mar 14, 2001)

I need a long cable for vm tivo in jersey


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> But our Tivo S1 products still work and 50% of us have no upgrade path to a replacment product is the point.


TiVo were never under any obligation to provide an upgrade path. They sold us hardware and a service, we got great value for money from it, they've now decided they can't sustain it any more. That's a shame, but anger (which you extremely tetchy tone today reveals) is not a useful reaction.

Why not put some of your energy into helping out with a replacement EPG? Then it really won't matter a jot that TiVo have ended the service.

Alternatively, carry on in your self appointed role as the victim-in-chief of bad bad business.

Positive or negative, your call.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> And you have gone on and on ever since the announcement of the new Virgin Tivo with your position that the sun shines out of Virgin' back side and they can do no wrong because you happen to live in an area where you can have a new Tivo.


Well, once again that's a whole load of rubbish. Of course there's stuff wrong with VM and I'm happy to weigh in on such a discussion should anyone want to start one. I have, however, spoken in favour of VM when someone decides to post something that is either demonstrably incorrect or based on incorrect information.



> You have consistently shown no sympathy or understanding whatsoever towards those of us who have had a Tivo for many years, cannot get a new Virgin model replacement and are now to have the old Tivo service disconnected at what is *clearly some Virgin marketing man's behest* (i.e. that due to the usual childhish rivalry between Virgin and Sky they take the view that there must not be any Tivo in operation in the UK that can support the reception of services broadcast by their main rival - Sky).


Well yes. Apart from my showing support for contacting Tivo about it; signing the petition and wishing those people well who are trying to get replacement service going. All of which is documented in my posts on this Forum.

Not _quite_ sure how you get that I have "shown no sympathy or understanding" from that, but okay  

I do not think that contacting Watchdog or the main-stream press about it will help in the slightest, but I still support people's right to do so if they want.

Oh, and the bit I have embolded is simply your assumption based on absolutely nothing other than the fact that the service is being withdrawn.



> Why do you always feel the need to resort to calling someone a fool or an idiot when you disagree with them.


1. Example please.
2. I might call someone's _opinion_ idiotic or foolish but I don't call _people_ idiots.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> the old Tivo service disconnected at what is clearly some Virgin marketing man's behest (i.e. that due to the usual childhish rivalry between Virgin and Sky they take the view that there must not be any Tivo in operation in the UK that can support the reception of services broadcast by their main rival - Sky).


Got to love Pete, never happier than when coming up with a far-fetched opinion and stating it as fact.

Try an alternative interpretation: TiVo lost money in the UK from day one, and have understandably wanted to exit fully for some time. However they felt that it was good customer service and only fair to keep the service going for a reasonable amount of time after they withdrew hardware sales. Nine years seemed more than reasonable so they've now stopped it. It's not TiVos fault that in the last 10 years no-one has sold a better PVR.

No need to invoke the spirit of Murdich or Branson.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

IMO TiVo decided to stop service for "old S1 TiVos" once "new TiVos" are on sale. That's Tivo's decsion, not VM's.

As for the "only 50% coverage" argument - TiVo has no obligation to enable everyone to get it. They're obviously interested in subscriber numbers first and foremost.

Since VM has stated they'll eventually use TiVo on ALL boxes - that's a huge subscriber base for TiVo (3 million), and much better than selling a few boxes into an already saturated freeview PVR market.

There are probably _already_ more VM boxes than S1 TiVos in active use right now - and at launch or soon after will be more than Thomson ever sold (100k ?)


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

And also, as already stated previously - and not by me - VM was _probably_ their only possible option. They wouldn't want to go with Sky again for obvious reasons and Freeview/Freesat is out as the subs model doesn't fit.


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## CH1 (Jul 18, 2004)

Sounds like you guys are streets ahead but my bro is South Africa mentioned this site to me :

http://tivoza.nanfo.com/wiki/index.php/TiVo_South_Africa

don't know whether the fact they appear to have been doing this for some time might be of use to the very clever geeks who read this site and leave me scratching my head in amazement! They might have some ideas to share as they seem as passionate about TiVo as we are.


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## CH1 (Jul 18, 2004)

sorry - I should have said - this is in response to the initial post and page 1 threads - things seem to have gone a bit off track in recent posts. 
I'm glad TiVo supported the product as long as they did - it IS a shame they don't seem to realise how patchy Virgin's coverage in the UK is nor what a great product TiVo is (the Thompson PVR is not in the same league - I stupidly assumed it would have the same brand quality but was sadly disappointed and although I have it hooked up to second TV still rely on series one TiVo for anything essential to record) but surely if we CAN keep some sort of service going we are all after the same thing? Do those of you looking at this think it will be possible to keep the favourites function going? I am sure Sky and Virgin know what viewers are watching so can't see why they can't offer this - also the season pass that lasts from one season to the next - it is so annoying when I find the box has missed a new series that TiVo picks up with ease


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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

CH1 said:


> sorry - I should have said - this is in response to the initial post and page 1 threads - things seem to have gone a bit off track in recent posts.
> I'm glad TiVo supported the product as long as they did - it IS a shame they don't seem to realise how patchy Virgin's coverage in the UK is nor what a great product TiVo is (the Thompson PVR is not in the same league - I stupidly assumed it would have the same brand quality but was sadly disappointed and although I have it hooked up to second TV still rely on series one TiVo for anything essential to record) but surely if we CAN keep some sort of service going we are all after the same thing? Do those of you looking at this think it will be possible to keep the favourites function going? I am sure Sky and Virgin know what viewers are watching so can't see why they can't offer this - also the season pass that lasts from one season to the next - it is so annoying when I find the box has missed a new series that TiVo picks up with ease


An replacement service is being investigated over on the tivoland.com forums.


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## JonnyJackov (Jan 17, 2003)

I use my tivo in spain, dialling up a national spanish number which I get free on my spanish landline package. It would be nice if you guys consider us as well whilst investigating a new system.

Obviously I would be glad to help or test things from spain. 

Just so good to hear my Tivo may not be dead come June, I haven't felt the same using it since the announcement. Sort of like I'm in mourning lol


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## paulcahill (May 8, 2009)

Having come to TiVo relatively recently I am devastated at the news of losing the epg service. My wife has chronic illness which enforces long periods of inactivity. She is a complete technophobe but has embraced our s1 TiVo like nothing before, she loves it as I do. 

I'm afraid I can offer nothing in the way of technological help but wish to convey my/our heartfelt thanks and encouragement to all those who can and are striving to offer an alternative. We have the lifetime subscription but would be more than willing to pay the reasonable costs for an alternative service, at the end of the day I feel I have no moral right to ask someone else to do what I cannot for nothing even though I am currently paying nothing. 

I am also heartened by the number of other TiVo enthusiasts none of whom are anything less than passionate to keep what is, after all, the best bit of kit on the planet. I am amazed that this technology did not get the widespread acclaim and uptake, its suppression must surely have been politically and financially motivated to make any sense at all? I am certainly nowhere near VM provision and quite frankly am happy with what we currently have, as with many things today 'progress' can be somewhat questionable!

I look forward to using our TiVo for many years to come, in whatever guise.

Wishing everyone the very best, Paul Cahill

Series 1
Networked Cachecard
Upgraded HD
Grundig SD Freesat
Panasonic 32" LCD with built in Freeview and Freesat


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## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

Paul, are you saying your Tivo is upgraded to HD?

If not, does anyone think that a Tivo could have an HD tuner fitted inside the box, or be able to up scale SD to HD?

If that could be done, I would then not have to use my Sky+ HD box!


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## sjp (Oct 22, 2001)

HD = Hard Disk?


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## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

Oh yeah! lol


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

crossdynamite said:


> If not, does anyone think that a Tivo could have an HD tuner fitted inside the box, or be able to up scale SD to HD?


Our S1 boxes have an aerial feed and an analogue tuner so the question is whether that tuner is on board the motherboard in the Tivo or sits in its own little slot? Even if it does sit in its own little slot the the S1 works by turning an analogue tuner signal in to a digital recording. So I doubt it could be changed to capture a digital recording off a digital Freeview HD tuner card and then have the HDMI output (where are the HDMI sockets on an S1 - answer there aren't any) to feed to your tv.

I think the only way to get an HD Tivo in the UK outside Virgin cable land would be for people to start importing the Australian Freeview HD Tivo and see if there was a way to get that working in the UK.


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I think the only way to get an HD Tivo in the UK outside Virgin cable land would be for people to start importing the Australian Freeview HD Tivo and see if there was a way to get that working in the UK.


How much are they? And are the DVB-T formats compatible? PSU? connectors? Hmm...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

irrelevant said:


> How much are they? And are the DVB-T formats compatible? PSU? connectors? Hmm...


I seem to remember that in principle it could handle our DVB-T format and/or Freeview HD format. There were a load of threads about it on this forum at one stage when it had just launched out there.

If we are going to go to all the trouble of developing our own UK Tivo EPG then I for one would be all in favour of also looking at whether the Australian Tivo could be got to work over here to provide twin tuner and HD recording functionality. The Freeview signal is fairly poor where I live but that will change during digital switchover next year.

Of course www.oztivo.net is all about hacking the S1 units as they don't want to be seen to hack the S3 due to the potential service theft or copyright implications.........


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## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

I know there is no HDMI input on the tivo. I did read some where, that a guy did fit a freeview tuner inside Tivo and was able to record from it. So we know that can be done.


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## Fred Smith (Oct 5, 2002)

I think you will find he fitted a Freeview box insides in his TiVo and used the FV box Scart out to TiVo's Scart in. So bypassing the existing analogue tuner as you would with any Scart connected equipment. So all he really did was put a small box inside a large box.


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## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

What would be the point in doing that? Is it not simple just change the existing analogue tuner for a digital one (freeview)?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

crossdynamite said:


> What would be the point in doing that? Is it not simple just change the existing analogue tuner for a digital one (freeview)?


Neatness and tidiness including WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).


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## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

So was he able to use tivos epg with freeviews tuner? and would we be able to watch freeview and record say off sky via scart at same time?


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

crossdynamite said:


> I know there is no HDMI input on the tivo. I did read some where, that a guy did fit a freeview tuner inside Tivo and was able to record from it. So we know that can be done.


I presume that you mean this one...


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## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

Yes I do mean that one.


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> If we are going to go to all the trouble of developing our own UK Tivo EPG then I for one would be all in favour of also looking at whether the Australian Tivo could be got to work over here to provide twin tuner and HD recording functionality.


I dare say that once we get a replacement service up and running, then such things can be looked into ... The priority has to be keeping the existing kit running first.

As it happens, I've got an American Series 1 box here too, which I'm hoping to press into use in some form, assuming it still works: its been in the bottom of the cupboard since 2005..

I can, however, see TiVo Inc being unhappy with anybody commercially selling localised "current" models of box, as it could be considered challenging their agreement with VM. Our trying to keep our decade old stuff running I expect them to just ignore..


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## crossdynamite (Feb 18, 2011)

I do think we do need to get our Tivo running fully with Epg after June 1, but it would just be nice to up grade our tivos for the digital age, with feeview/HD


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## richard_hamblen (Nov 7, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> But our Tivo S1 products still work and 50% of us have no upgrade path to a replacment product is the point.
> They should have waited until they had rolled out the Tivo interface across all of their existing customer base.


Pete - stop thinking about yourself and your own pain. I know it hurts but its not the end of the world. Others are working on an epg to replace the service from Tivo.

Many of us have products that still work but companies no longer support them. There are very few products that organisations still support 10 years after launch without cost. I have spent my career working for software and hardware companies, and we stop supporting old products. Products have a life span and eventually it is no longer commercially viable to support them. Im surprised and pleased to have had my Tivo work for this long and so should you.

SKY screwed over Tivo, so SKY are responsible for your lack of ability to get the new technology. It is VM who have purchased the license to us Tivo software on VM (cisco) boxes. VM understand the value of Tivo and have invested in it, so their customers gain the benefits. Yes, existing Tivo customers in a VM area have an option and those not in a VM area are a bit screwed. I know you dont have the choice, but guess what... you cant change that. BUT others are coming to your aid and you will get a 'community' epg which is better than nothing.

Tivo gain no revenue to support series 1 boxes. Some people use the internet to get the data, so those that do dial up and are on a monthly subscription and are not on VM areas will be very small, and barely covering the cost of the epg today, let alone when they loose all the series 1 custmers who move to VM. What Tivo are doing makes commercial sense. If I were a Tivo product manager, I would cut the service as it is unsustainable.

Tivo is not a charity it is a commercial operation and they need to do what makes commercial sense and drives shareholder value. If they don't the company folds... period. They do not exist to service Pete, Richard and whoever.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

richard_hamblen said:


> Pete - stop thinking about yourself ....


Something he has accused me of recently. Oh the irony


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Plagiarist.


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## richard_hamblen (Nov 7, 2002)

cwaring said:


> Something he has accused me of recently. Oh the irony


You've been posting on this and other sites for years. I've never noticed you of thinking of yourself.

I remember petitions you started to drive support from VM towards Tivo. You, like many of us, believe SKY caused Thompon to stop production of Tivo and stop it being commercially viable and viewed VM and the only way to bring a new lease of life to Tivo into the UK... and you were right.

So not noticed you thinking about yourself but more thinking about the masses experiencing Tivo.


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## richard_hamblen (Nov 7, 2002)

> Read the agreement from 2000 - it's the same as it is now:
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


@Pete - you are quite vocal about the closing of the service, did you ever read the T's and C's from Tivo - its been pointed out on a number of threads you've posted, but I'll remind you just in case you missed it


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

richard_hamblen said:


> did you ever read the T's and C's from Tivo - its been pointed out on a number of threads you've posted, but I'll remind you just in case you missed it


Ts and Cs are of no interest to me as the law allows suppliers to change them on customers retrospectively all the time to their advantage as my bank and credit card suppliers do almost every other month. So you have no rights as an ordinary customer of a commercially supplied product other than to take your custom away (assuming there is not a t and c stopping you from doing that or imposing a penalty if you do). On the other hand you are the customer are not allowed to vary the Ts and Cs with the supplier. Ts and Cs are always quoted by companies as an excuse for committing dark and evil acts upon their customers. The reality is that the customer has no option but to nominally agree to such terms. Check out the OFT's guide on the matter at www.oft.gov.uk/about-the-oft/legal-powers/legal/unfair-terms/guidance

The bottom line is that the costs of continuing to service the S1s in the UK was clearly not very significant or Tivo would have canned the S1 service years ago, especially in the dim dark days of 2006, 2007 and 2008 when the last Tivo units had long since been sold and there seemed no likelihood at all of Tivo re-entering the UK marketplace.

This sudden closure of the S1 service has clearly been insisted on by Virgin who cannot bear the thought of a service that will still support Sky boxes (which Tivo now seem to wrongly remember the S1s as only supporting) continuing to run and who presumably see the cancellation of the S1 service as being an opportunity to force another 3,000 or so Tivo S1 customers in a Virgin cable area but who do not take a paying Virgin tv service (or who only take the free M package with a phone line or broadband) to have to take the new Virgin Tivo product including its very expensive monthly rental and one off new box purchase cost.

Tivo does actually have to worry about their reputation in withdrawing S1 service as this matter is now already being talked about across the pond as the beginning of the end in terms of Tivo continuing to support its older series of Tivo units.

With regard to the other products you were involved in supporting no longer being supported surely in most cases you are talking about a support line being closed or spares no longer being available but are not talking about a daily data supply intrinsic to the operation of the product being withdrawn on what is really very short notice. If they were going to withdraw S1 service they should given at least 12 months notice in my humble opinion.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

crossdynamite said:


> I do think we do need to get our Tivo running fully with Epg after June 1, but it would just be nice to up grade our tivos for the digital age, with feeview/HD


HD is definitely a non-starter; Freeview HD uses DVB-T2 and MPEG-4, neither of which are in use in Aus or supported by an Aus TiVo.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> This sudden closure of the S1 service has clearly been insisted on by Virgin who cannot bear the thought of a service that will still support Sky boxes (which Tivo now seem to wrongly remember the S1s as only supporting) continuing to run and who presumably see the cancellation of the S1 service as being an opportunity to force another 3,000 or so Tivo S1 customers in a Virgin cable area but who do not take a paying Virgin tv service (or who only take the free M package with a phone line or broadband) to have to take the new Virgin Tivo product including its very expensive monthly rental and one off new box purchase cost.


I guess if you keep repeating the same bits of pure speculation as fact there's a chance someone might believe them to be true.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I guess if you keep repeating the same bits of pure speculation as fact there's a chance someone might believe them to be true.


Isnt't that the same business that David Cameron or most ministers of religion are involved in every single day of the week.

Also many newspaper stories involve speculation.

If Tivo can definitively prove that the Virgin had no influence on their decision to close the S1 service then I am more than happy for them to publish a statement categorically stating that fact and explaining why it makes sense to withdraw the service before even all S1 customers in a Virgin Cable area will have an adequate opportunity to upgrade without loss of Tivo service.


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> This sudden closure of the S1 service has clearly been insisted on by Virgin who cannot bear the thought of a service that will still support Sky boxes (which Tivo now seem to wrongly remember the S1s as only supporting) continuing to run and who presumably see the cancellation of the S1 service as being an opportunity to force another 3,000 or so Tivo S1 customers in a Virgin cable area but who do not take a paying Virgin tv service (or who only take the free M package with a phone line or broadband) to have to take the new Virgin Tivo product including its very expensive monthly rental and one off new box purchase cost.


I was talking to the head of the TiVo team at Virgin yesterday about S1 boxes when I was ordering my VM TiVo. He said that VM had been taking a lot of flak over the death of the S1 service and had been quite surprised by TiVo's decision to pull the plug, which they had not even been warned about.

Could of course be lying but the guy seemed very genuine.


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

Karnak said:


> I was talking to the head of the TiVo team at Virgin yesterday about S1 boxes when I was ordering my VM TiVo. He said that VM had been taking a lot of flak over the death of the S1 service and had been quite surprised by TiVo's decision to pull the plug, which they had not even been warned about.
> 
> Could of course be lying but the guy seemed very genuine.


It's very possible that somebody high up in VM was as ignorant of the existing S1 presence, and put the word "exclusive" in the contract, and TiVo Inc took that requirement to it's logical conclusion.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Karnak said:


> I was talking to the head of the TiVo team at Virgin yesterday about S1 boxes when I was ordering my VM TiVo. He said that VM had been taking a lot of flak over the death of the S1 service and had been quite surprised by TiVo's decision to pull the plug, which they had not even been warned about.
> 
> Could of course be lying but the guy seemed very genuine.


He was probably the head of their Tivo sales team but firstly my motto is never ever trust a salesman trying to sell you something (admitting Virgin are behind killing the S1 service would put customers off signing up for the new Tivo) and also that whilst he may well be a senior Virgin Tivo sales person but he is still not privy to the contractual discussions between Neil Berkett and other senior Virgin Media executives and Tivo Inc.

I am also prepared to countenance the possibility that Tivo's withdrawal of the S1 service is due to muddled thinking from the remoteness of Aviso in the USA that the new Tivo service fully replaces the S1 service and so them wrongly thinking nobody would have a problem if it was withdrawn once that was in place. However if that is the case then I believe the decision can be reversed. If Tivo S1 service was killed off at the contractual insistence of Virgin then I doubt that the decision can be reversed.

There is also a third possibility which is that Sky insisted on withdrawing from any further support involvement with the Tivo S1 in view of Tivo now being a Virgin marketed product and that this forced Tivo's hand as they did not properly consider the alternative of just continuing the data feed without a support line or moving any support that is needed to their customer service operatives at Tivo HQ in Aviso.


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> He was probably the head of their Tivo sales team but firstly my motto is never ever trust a salesman trying to sell you something (admitting Virgin are behind killing the S1 service would put customers off signing up for the new Tivo) and also that whilst he may well be a senior Virgin Tivo sales person but he is still not privy to the contractual discussions between Neil Berkett and other senior Virgin Media executives and Tivo Inc.


As I say, not trying to argue that VM are right in all of this but I had already agreed to buy the thing at that point.

I did also previously speak to the 'TiVo Champion' from Neil B's office and although he seemed sympathetic about the death of the S1 he didn't blame TiVo directly. So, read into that one as you wish.


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> There is also a third possibility which is that Sky insisted on withdrawing from any further support involvement with the Tivo S1 in view of Tivo now being a Virgin marketed product and that this forced Tivo's hand as they did not properly consider the alternative of just continuing the data feed without a support line or moving any support that is needed to their customer service operatives at Tivo HQ in Aviso.


This may be possible? Back in October I was talking to a BSkyB Tivo CS rep, who discussed the VM box, and said they (Sky) might not be doing TiVo CS much longer. I should have paid a bit more attention...


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

richard_hamblen said:


> You've been posting on this and other sites for years. I've never noticed you of thinking of yourself.
> 
> I remember petitions you started to drive support from VM towards Tivo. You, like many of us, believe SKY caused Thompon to stop production of Tivo and stop it being commercially viable and viewed VM and the only way to bring a new lease of life to Tivo into the UK... and you were right.
> 
> So not noticed you thinking about yourself but more thinking about the masses experiencing Tivo.


Thank you Richard. Though I'm pretty sure my Petition had zero affect on anything


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

Pete77 said:


> Ts and Cs are of no interest to me as the law allows suppliers to change them on customers retrospectively all the time to their advantage as my bank and credit card suppliers do almost every other month


That's because you have signed contracts containing clauses that allow this to happen. If you didn't agree with those clauses, you shouldn't have signed the contracts.

You signed a contract with TiVo that contained a clause allowing them to cancel the service for any reason or no reason with 30 days' notice. If you didn't agree with that, why did you sign it?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Thank you Richard. Though I'm pretty sure my Petition had zero affect on anything


I disagree.

I think given that the timing of your petition and the general Virgin lobbying back then about a Virgin box possibly running Tivo software (as the Scientific Atlanta boxes they were then issuing for V+ customers were doing so for several US cable operators) and the subsequent Virgin and Tivo partnership announcement that your petition along with the other lobbying work may very well have triggered Virgin to have an exploratory meeting with Tivo about their cable box software. And that from that little acorn the large oak tree of a whole new Virgin Tivo may have grown.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

GWR71 said:


> That's because you have signed contracts containing clauses that allow this to happen. If you didn't agree with those clauses, you shouldn't have signed the contracts.
> 
> You signed a contract with TiVo that contained a clause allowing them to cancel the service for any reason or no reason with 30 days' notice. If you didn't agree with that, why did you sign it?


Dohhhh. That was because I wanted a Tivo S1 and they weren't willing to supply it on any other terms or negotiate with me personally and anyhow I didn't sign anything contrary to what you claim. I merely purchased the product from Currys with a credit card and gave Sky my credit card number for the Lifetime service on the phone.

I find that people in the customer services environment of a customer crunching variety (i.e. their employer is always right and the customer is always wrong) always start to refer darkly to any nasty terms and conditions when they want to do something to a customer that they know will make the customer upset and angry. And in my experience when they have to use terms and conditions to justify doing something nasty and unpleasant to the customer the relationship has usually irretrievably broken down and they have lost that customer for good.:down::down::down:

Even when buying my leasehold flat the situation was the same. The lease existed already for several years and the developer was not open to negotiation over their content. That is why we now have the concept of unfair contract terms given that usually they are imposed on the customer who cannot negotiate them.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> I am also prepared to countenance the possibility that
> 
> There is also a third possibility o.


I think more likely by far is the 4th possibility, that TiVo had been wanting to save cash by stopping the UK service for some years, but had not done so because of the potential damage to the TiVo brand when trying to get a new partner for the UK, and because they genuinely wanted to do right by the original TiVo subscribers.

Once a new parter was signed, many S1 TiVo people could upgrade, and the remaining rump was so small then there was no longer a viable reason to keep it going.

Another possible contributory factor is that the deal which meant TiVo didn't pay Sky for their services - possibly including the 0800 number - after 2003 may have come to an end, so TiVo's costs may have been about to increase.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> ..... as I can see the obvious temptation for Mike or Dave to set up an 0844 or even an 0871 number and then take a rake off the not insubstantial daily data retrieveal call stream.
> 
> .....


I think that suggestion is a bit out of order. Dave has made it quite clear that he's not interested in making this commercial.


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

Pete77 said:


> Dohhhh. That was because I wanted a Tivo S1 and they weren't willing to supply it on any other terms or negotiate with me personally


So you agreed to the terms, so you've got nothing to complain about, especially since they have given you considerably more than 30 days' notice of the termination of the service, and have supplied that service for many years longer than anyone reasonably expected them to.

You should do a bit of searching of this forum's archive - you'll see that once it was confirmed that TiVo UK was effectively no more in 2003, there was widespread concern that the service was in imminent danger of being pulled.


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## dmeldrum (Jan 3, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I am also prepared to countenance the possibility that Tivo's withdrawal of the S1 service is due to muddled thinking from the remoteness of Aviso in the USA that the new Tivo service fully replaces the S1 service and so them wrongly thinking nobody would have a problem if it was withdrawn once that was in place.


TiVo clearly did not want to abandon the UK market, and continued providing the Series 1 service for a number of reasons:

1) Reputation
2) They had no upgrade path to offer subscribers
3) It may hinder attempts to relaunch in the UK with a new partner.

Providing that service had a cost, and no matter how low some peoPle believe that cost to be, it clearly exceeded any revenue TiVo might continue to earn. The costs include the dial-up service, the servers servicing the UK customers, the guide data and the customer service systems and people.

It is clear to me that the Virgin service shares nothing with the S1 service. The guide data is from Tribune to Virgin, TiVo are not involved. The servers that service Virgins TiVos are almost certainly Virgins. The customer service is also from Virgin. It would appear that TiVo provide the software but Virgin are doing everything else themselves.

So faced with a tiny number of S1 customers, a set of costs with no hope of any revenue, and no strategic benefit to maintaining the S1 service, TiVo have made the most sensible business decision possible. Stop the S1 service whilst giving a reasonable amount of notice to customers, and don't charge any that may have still been paying.

I'm sure TiVo understand that not all S1 customers can get Virgin service. Even if there were as many as 500 S1 customers who cannot/will not switch to Virgin, even if all of them were still paying £10 per month, there is nowhere near enough revenue to cover costs.

So what do you want TiVo to do? Provide a loss making service indefinitely? A business may do this for a period of time if there is a long term payback, but that is not the case here. TiVo have already delivered that and with Virgin have now got the payback. Ending the service is the right thing to do, no matter how sad that is, and even though some will be inconvenienced.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

dmeldrum said:


> I'm sure TiVo understand that not all S1 customers can get Virgin service. Even if there were as many as 500 S1 customers who cannot/will not switch to Virgin, even if all of them were still paying £10 per month, there is nowhere near enough revenue to cover costs.


There are a lot more than 500 Tivo S1 users who will be left with no service on June 1st.

Tivo originally sold over 20,000 units and perhaps up to 30,000 (Thomson made up to nearly 30,000 units but how many were never sold is not known). Anecdotal evidence suggests that at least 35% of them and perhaps up to 50% of them are still use (most of these have a Lifetime Sub since those paying monthly were always under more economic pressure to consider more recent equipment with no monthly subscription). Even the thread in this forum that asked owners still using them to post to confirm their use attracted well over 500 registrations. There are many Tivo owners who were recommended to get them by sons or nephews who never ever visit this forum from one end of the year to the other.

Of the 7,000 to 10,000 units still in use at least 50% will be not in Virgin cabled areas. That leaves 3,500 to 5,000 customers with no Tivo service of any flavour at all. Of the 3,500 to 5,000 in Virgin cable land many do not wish to upgrade at this stage because of Virgin's early adopter pricing. £149 for the new box is not bad but still much more expensive than a basic Sky HD box with a lock in sub but the ongoing level of minimum subscription requirement with the XL package is too high to encourage customers on the M or M+ packages to consider upgrading. Without the cancellation of Tivo S1 service most of them would have hung on until they have a new Tivo without that level of subscription commitment. Of course perhaps that is why some senior Virgin sales person leaned on Tivo to cancel the Tivo S1 service as soon as possible........

And finally by the way every one of you smug so and sos who have switched to Windows MCE, Sky HD etc because of your obsession with always using the latest thing (eg HD which is so little different from SD as to be of very marginal benefit as I am reminded every time I visit my sister's house where she has a Sky HD box and an HD widescreen plasma tv) or who are getting a new Virgin Tivo and who smugly say "I think Tivo can't be expected to go on with the S1 service" are simply undermining the efforts of those of us who want to go on receiving Tivo S1 service and who are campaigning with Tivo to that effect.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> There are a lot more than 500 Tivo S1 users who will be left with no service on June 1st.


How many £10 a month payers outside of a Virgin area though? 500 sounds about right, although I don't ave access to your random statistics generator (35%?).



> And finally by the way every one of you smug so and sos who have switched to Windows MCE, Sky HD etc because of your obsession with always using the latest thing (eg HD which is so little different from SD as to be of very marginal benefit as I am reminded every time I visit my sister's house where she has a Sky HD box and an HD widescreen plasma tv) or who are getting a new Virgin Tivo and who smugly say "I think Tivo can't be expected to go on with the S1 service" are simply undermining the efforts of those of us who want to go on receiving Tivo S1 service and who are campaigning with Tivo to that effect.


Longest. Sentence. Ever.

I'm not sure how MCE (introduced 2004) and Sky+HD (introduced 2006 and with nearly 2m subscribers) count as "early adopter".

Of course many original TiVo owners were early adopters (£600 for a hard disk recorder in 2000 was not mass market), and many may well have moved on to adopt newer technologies. Particularly the ones with an interest in AV, which TiVo has not really been much use for since screens over 36-inch became commonplace. Both reasons why your suggestion that half are still in use is way out of line.

Anyway, at the risk of being smug, do tell us about your campaign to have the service continue. Apart from a a couple of posts re-iterating your long held belief that TiVo won't cut the service off, even though they have, it's not clear what these "efforts" of yours consist of? A Pete-patented e-mail to the CEO perhaps, or maybe a phone call - national rate of course, that'll soon have them crawling back.


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## gary cheshire (Oct 1, 2001)

smatson said:


> I need a long cable for vm tivo in jersey


Go halves if you like

anymore tivo users in GBJ do you know


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## dmeldrum (Jan 3, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> There are a lot more than 500 Tivo S1 users who will be left with no service on June 1st.
> 
> Tivo originally sold over 20,000 units and perhaps up to 30,000 (Thomson made up to nearly 30,000 units but how many were never sold is not known). Anecdotal evidence suggests that at least 35% of them and perhaps up to 50% of them are still use (most of these have a Lifetime Sub since those paying monthly were always under more economic pressure to consider more recent equipment with no monthly subscription). Even the thread in this forum that asked owners still using them to post to confirm their use attracted well over 500


Well we can all make up numbers, only TiVo know exactly how many S1 boxes are still in use, and they are unlikely to share that with us. We do know that with that information, they decided that it was not worthwhile continuing the service.

Internet forums are not a good place to do statistical analysis, they tend to skew and polarise the results with those who think a service is great and those who think it is terrible and ignore the silent majority in between.

However I believe your supposition of how many S1 boxes are still in use is greatly exaggerated. This forums survey is the only factual input we have, and that found less than a thousand. Even if there were another nine boxes for every one identified, the numbers are still tiny.

I'm glad we agree that the number of £10 per month subscribers is/was tiny. So the point remains, with no revenue stream worth collecting, why should TiVo continue the S1 service?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

dmeldrum said:


> I'm glad we agree that the number of £10 per month subscribers is/was tiny. So the point remains, with no revenue stream worth collecting, why should TiVo continue the S1 service?


In order to preserve their corporate good name in the UK due to its new use in conjunction with Virgin and equally important in order to avoid causing shockwaves back in the USA or in other markets like Australia about the commitment of the company to continuing to support customers using its older units.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

They have clearly evaluated that risk and decided it is either negligible or not worth the cost of the service to negate.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> They have clearly evaluated that risk and decided it is either negligible or not worth the cost of the service to negate.


Perhaps they evaluated the risk incorrectly like the BAA did at Heathrow with snow.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Perhaps, but given the almost total lack of fuss about this outside of this forum, it looks do far as though they were right


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


...that, or just use the replacement EPG after June 1st


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## ramtops (Sep 26, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> And finally by the way every one of you smug so and sos who have switched to Windows MCE, Sky HD etc because of your obsession with always using the latest thing (eg HD which is so little different from SD as to be of very marginal benefit as I am reminded every time I visit my sister's house where she has a Sky HD box and an HD widescreen plasma tv) or who are getting a new Virgin Tivo and who smugly say "I think Tivo can't be expected to go on with the S1 service" are simply undermining the efforts of those of us who want to go on receiving Tivo S1 service and who are campaigning with Tivo to that effect.


I haven't switched to anything up until now, but I do think that Tivo have supported a tiny market for far longer than many of us might have expected. I can't have a new Tivo here, and to be frank, I wouldn't want it - too expensive and too locked down.

But I will be retiring our Tivo, for which we continued to pay a tenner a month to support the service for ten years or so - we felt was worth it. For us, Tivo's time is over, though it's been just a wondrous piece of kit. I shall really miss being able to use the web browser to set it.

Your numbers could be wildly off the mark - we just *don't know*, do we.


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## CarlWalters (Oct 17, 2001)

mikerr said:


> Do not go gentle into that good night.
> Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
> 
> ...that, or just use the replacement EPG after June 1st


marvellous  - cheered me up no end.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Dylan rools KO?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ramtops said:


> But I will be retiring our Tivo, for which we continued to pay a tenner a month to support the service for ten years or so - we felt was worth it. For us, Tivo's time is over, though it's been just a wondrous piece of kit. I shall really miss being able to use the web browser to set it.


Why will you not be keeping it going if the community effort here makes it possible with our own new EPG service???



> Your numbers could be wildly off the mark - we just *don't know*, do we.


Those who have the numbers at Tivo are at liberty to publish them if they wish to do so to justify their decision.

At least 50% of Tivos had a Lifetime Sub (the number was published somewhere at one stage) and even though some early adopter types upgraded to other boxes in the main they passed on their still working Tivo box to a friend or relative or continue to use it as a second PVR with another tv in another room in their house.

I think it is quite reasonable to think that the majority of Tivos with a Lifetime sub are still going as the product was so good people wanted to keep it going and the pre-prepared replacement hard drives have been available for several years now at fairly reasonable prices in the event of hard drive failure. Sky's Tivo customer services section even pointed customers towards those services once their machines were out of warranty if they had a hard drive failure.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Do not go gentle into that good night.
> Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


He is only quoting a well known poet who attended my old school some years before me. But I agree entirely with the sentiments expressed of continuing to fight to keep the service going.


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## dmeldrum (Jan 3, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Those who have the numbers at Tivo are at liberty to publish them if they wish to do so to justify their decision.


They could, but I suspect they won't, because they don't *have *to justify their decision to anyone.



> I think it is quite reasonable to think that the majority of Tivos with a Lifetime sub are still going as the product was so good people wanted to keep it going and the pre-prepared replacement hard drives have been available for several years now at fairly reasonable prices in the event of hard drive failure.


I disagree, but like you I have no facts to support the assertion.

My logic is simple, TiVo S1 was taken up by technically savvy early adopters, the bulk of whom have probably contributed to this forum over the last ten years. S1 is an analogue product, whose internal tuner is already obsolete in many parts of the country, and will be completely obsolete next year. The sort of people who appreciate TiVo are those who appreciate TV and technology in general. So they are more likely than the general population to have invested in new TVs and other digital services in the last ten years.

We do know that a number of TiVo evangelists, myself included, had already retired their S1 boxes prior to this latest news. If a proportion of the evangelists can decide that it is time to move on, then why would we expect anything less from the rest of the S1 owners? I personally took a step down and switched to Virgin V+ box. I knew that I was losing a number of cool features, I knew that it was a poor replacement. But it was integrated, it had three tuners, it was cheaper, it had better picture quality and HD, it was on average more reliable. I'm sure many early TiVo customers reached similar conclusions and went with either a Freeview PVR, Sky HD or BT Vision as popular replacements, or explored MCE and other options if they were technically savvy. I cannot believe your position that the majority of Series 1 TiVos sold are still in active use.

If there is a hidden army of S1 owners who are up in arms about the closure announcement, why have so few of them joined this forum and posted? Why has the response on other more popular general purpose forums been so quiet? Since it seems that everyone in the world except me are on Facebook, where are the thousands of Facebook users campaigning for S1 to continue?

My view is that apart from a few hundred keen supporters here, there are not that many S1 TiVo owners in the UK still using the service, and for those that are, most will switch to Virgin if available. If they don't switch now, they will when the price comes down.

Which leaves a small number, who cannot get Virgin cable, and who will miss out. Which is a shame, but not really big in the grand scheme of things, and something that TiVo have considered and deemed acceptable. We may not like their decision, but at least I can understand how they reached it, and can agree for them it is the right decision.

Compared to everyone in the country having to upgrade their analogue TVs for digital switchover, the retirement of a niche service that hasn't been sold for eight years is not going to get the attention you desire.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

dmeldrum said:


> Compared to everyone in the country having to upgrade their analogue TVs for digital switchover, the retirement of a niche service that hasn't been sold for eight years is not going to get the attention you desire.


But the point you are missing is that Tivo has never discontinued service before on any existing box so this does have huge potential implications for Tivo subscribers across the pond in the USA.


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

dmeldrum said:


> It's not quite the same thing.
> 
> For 15 quid or less anyone can add a freeview box and continue using their old tv.
> 
> ...


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

dmeldrum said:


> Since it seems that everyone in the world except me are on Facebook, where are the thousands of Facebook users campaigning for S1 to continue?


There are currently (ie at the time of this post) 115 people who have 'liked' the "Save S1 Tvo" page on FB.

Well said on the rest of your post, too.


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## dmeldrum (Jan 3, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> But the point you are missing is that Tivo has never discontinued service before on any existing box so this does have huge potential implications for Tivo subscribers across the pond in the USA.


One day, I'm sure that TiVo will discontinue the S1 service in the USA. I don't know how soon that will be, but I do know that the business model over there is very different.

Tivo USA need to provide the same listings data for S2/S3 customers who are still paying. The S1 data is generally a subset, so the marginal cost is minimal. I am assuming that the billing/support infrastructure for S1 is shared, so again marginal cost is small. I also assume that Tivo have a reasonable revenue stream still from S1 customers, since it is a much larger market.

So the USA decision criteria is very different to UK.

The only thing we know for certain is that all good things come to an end, so S1 services will eventually end.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

dmeldrum said:


> The only thing we know for certain is that all good things come to an end, so S1 services will eventually end.


True. But I suspect that in another 10 years time with most things being broadcast in HD and BBC/ITV Freesat having evolved and improved a lot more that far less people would have felt strongly about the matter.

I also think that if Tivo were going to kill the service that they should have given more like a year's notice to allow people time to make adequate plans for a replacement service. They clearly knew they were going to kill the service when they stopped taking subs four or so months ago but they chose to hide their planned demise date for the service at that stage.


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## dmeldrum (Jan 3, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> True. But I suspect that in another 10 years time with most things being broadcast in HD and BBC/ITV Freesat having evolved and improved a lot more that far less people would have felt strongly about the matter.


Probably true, but TiVo probably feel the number now is low enough to be inconsequential.



> I also think that if Tivo were going to kill the service that they should have given more like a year's notice to allow people time to make adequate plans for a replacement service. They clearly knew they were going to kill the service when they stopped taking subs four or so months ago but they chose to hide their planned demise date for the service at that stage.


Well the three months they have given us is three times what the contract said they had to give us, and I don't imagine another nine months would really make that much difference to those affected. The cost to TiVo of another nine months service may have been considered. I agree it would have been nice for them to signpost their intentions earlier, but they would not have reached a definite date for end of service until they had confirmation from Virgin of wider availability. This would indicate that TiVo were considering the needs of S1 customers in their planning, particularly if the rumour is true that TiVo had a contractual clause for Virgin to offer S1 customers the new box early.

Overall, although I think it is very sad for the S1 service to end, I think TiVo have gone above and beyond the call of duty in keeping it going this long. If an alternative EPG service can be provided, then I hope it is successful.


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

Pete77 said:


> I also think that if Tivo were going to kill the service that they should have given more like a year's notice to allow people time to make adequate plans for a replacement service


What do you actually mean by "time to make adequate plans for a replacement service"? I can only assume that you're referring to the community being able to make the guide data available independently, since it doesn't take a year of planning to switch to Sky+ or a Freeview PVR, and since it looks hopeful that the alternative EPG will happen before the official cutoff, would an extra nine months really make a colossal amount of difference?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> True. But I suspect that in another 10 years time with most things being broadcast in HD and BBC/ITV Freesat having evolved and improved a lot more that far less people would have felt strongly about the matter.
> 
> I also think that if Tivo were going to kill the service that they should have given more like a year's notice to allow people time to make adequate plans for a replacement service. They clearly knew they were going to kill the service when they stopped taking subs four or so months ago but they chose to hide their planned demise date for the service at that stage.


Hello! Most things are broadcast in HD already.

Not clear ho having an extra eight months would really assist with deciding between Sky and Freeview - I've heard of considered decisions but that's ridiculous.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

dmeldrum said:


> They could, but I suspect they won't, because they don't *have *to justify their decision to anyone.


Hmmm. Do we have any TiVo shareholders here? They would be entitled to ask questions at the next company meeting open to them.


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## ramtops (Sep 26, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> Why will you not be keeping it going if the community effort here makes it possible with our own new EPG service???


Because for us it's time to move forward - we want better picture quality, and we don't have the space to keep that, the freeview box, and the Sky stuff.


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## woldsweather (May 9, 2008)

cwaring said:


> There are currently (ie at the time of this post) 115 people who have 'liked' the "Save S1 Tvo" page on FB.
> 
> Well said on the rest of your post, too.


First I've heard of it so I'm off there for a tick now.


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