# Sky+ Discussion



## Guest

Had Sky+ installed this morning, great peace of kit from what i can see so far (no recording functions for 24hrs though, teething problem with the system).

Biggest problem is that that I.R codes have changed. My tivo can't change the Sky+ channel so tivo is close to useless at the moment. My old sky remote won't work with the sky+ box either.

Can the i.r database in tivo be hacked?


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## sammoj

This was a known issue before release.

I would like to buy another digibox to replace my itvDigital system and although I don't think I would want to use Sky+ the most sensible choice (as it is only £85 more expensive than a vanilla box) is to buy the Sky+ box, itvDigital is costing me £12 per month anyway so the subs would actually be cheaper. But I would want to use the Tivo with the box - I am not sure it is in Tivo's interests to provide the codes but I would like them to do so like you.


This way I have a choice should Tivo pull the UK plug.


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## Automan

As suspected! different IR codes! The digitalspy was correct!

However, the wonderful Sky magazine say the open keyboard should perform all the functions it did! I assume all but enter any numbers!

Not being able to record for 24hrs sounds worrying. Are Sky hours like Microsoft minutes?

Reeves29, What is the problem? why can't it record? Can it even pause livetv?

I would expect TiVo to take a couple of months to come up with new codes that will work Sky+

Automan.


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## Norm

So can you use the EPG to change the Sky channel (as you can with the ordinary DigiBox) without setting it to record? If you can, presumably you can use this as a kludge to record on the TiVo?

------------------
Regards

Norman


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## Guest

I can't use any of the new features, record, pause tv can't shedule any recordings in the future. Comes up with a number to ring when i try to record, engineers said this was happening with everyone today. The Optical output works fine though.

The box is about 50% bigger (won't fit on my shelf). Its faster than old pace box but slightly slower than my old panasonic.

They only way i can use tivo is to set sky+ to the right channel before tivo wants to record or use the personnal planner. No chance of any suggestions.


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## Automan

It does not sound like Sky+ is off to a good start...

I assume if all the extra features don't work it must use a different epg data stream than the old Sky boxes? And I assume this data is not being transmitted turning Sky+ into no more than Sky (maybe slightly less if it no longer works with TiVo).

By the way, Reeves29, did you get a new viewing card in the post? If yes, do you need for the new box?

Automan.


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## Guest

Recording is activated for mine - engineer had to persist for a while with the Sky person but then it became available within 2 minutes.

You can set a dialing prefix so hopefully it will work when I get to Cyprus - i.e. just set the prefix to 0044 - unless of course it dials an 0845 number which won't work from outside of UK - ho hum, will have to wait and see.

BTW - can't rewind live TV - no 30mins cache like TiVo - bummer







And when I tested a movie recording it estimated it would need 11% of the disk - pathetic compared to TiVo - pah!


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## GarySargent

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *By the way, Reeves29, did you get a new viewing card in the post? If yes, do you need for the new box?*


Positing in uk.media.tv.sky suggests you *have* to use the old one - not the new one.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


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## GarySargent

Couple of questions:

1. Does Sky+ handle recordings expiring like TiVo - that is have a "Save Until" feature, or do you need to manually delete recordings if you run out of disc space.

2. In the next software upgrade to TiVo we can do funky thinks like tell it to have a season pass for The Weather, but only ever keep one copy of it - that way you always have the latest weather report but don't fill up your hard disc with old ones. Anything advanced like this in Sky+ or is it all quite basic?

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


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## Guest

You only get a new card if you are having your old box in another room (took the engineers 15 mins to find this out). So they activied my old card.

Looks like what the engineers told me was bull (2 engineers 2 hours to install it, not good). Phoned sky up, after 25mins found out i wasn't getting recording functions because i am billed by invoice, you can only have sky+ if you pay by credit card or direct debit. Setup a d/d told to wait for the recording funtion to activate, nothing after 1 hr.

Didn't have this much trouble with tivo.


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## martinwh

Does the Sky+ box have two separate LNB F-connectors on the back or one "special" connector for the new multi-core LNB down lead.

I'm asking 'cos I presently have two separate LNB down leads and would prefer to use them than have the Sky engineers run a new multi-core cable.

What type of connectors (and how many) are on the back on the new Quad LNB?

Martin


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## wattieuk

Cant say Im surprised about problems with the new Sky box! I have had about 9 digiboxes after buying one for £200 when they first came out. I finally got a Panasonic but that gave up the ghost when the new software went in and then it took them 3 more boxes to give me one that worked! I think the extra Sky charge is disgraceful. They already provide a schedule for Sky digital so I dont see why it sould be more for the same schedule on Sky+. Anyway I ordered my Tivo yesterday from Spectrum (It didnt come today like they said but I did order it late yesterday afternoon so it will hopefully come on Monday). I also have an ITV Digital box which I use for the ITV sports channel and find the box is more reliable than the digibox. I am going to hook the Tivo up to the ITV box because I only really record films off Sky and usually lend them to my dad! SO I will continue to do that with my VHS and use the Tivo to record soaps, sitcoms etc! No need at all for a Sky+ box - and if its bigger it wouldnt fit under my tv in the cabinet anyway!


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## Guest

> Originally posted by martinwh:
> *Does the Sky+ box have two separate LNB F-connectors on the back or one "special" connector for the new multi-core LNB down lead.*


The box has two regular f-connector sockets. The LNB has four regular f-connector sockets.


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## Guest

finally got recording functions to work after another 15mins on the phone.

No 30 min buffer as mark_shelley said which is a shame if you miss what was said.

If you do use the pause button, it starts a buffer from there. You can pause 1 channel while recording another so it must have 2 encoders therefore hopefully not to difficult for sky to update sky+ to record 2 different programs.

Also if you pause a channel you can't go off to any tv guide or planner as you have to 'leave paused live tv'. Which means if you pause a program for 10mins and then want to check if you have set a program to record..... you can't









1 Good thing about using tivo and sky+ together is that if your recording a sky channel on tivo and Sky+ starts a recording half way through, it doesn't change the channel so you don't messup your tivo recording.

1 Bad thing is that there is no Autoview on the planner anymore so you can't use tivo with sky untill the I.R codes are updated. The only way is to set tivo to record a program and leave sky on the channel you want to record.

In my opinion at this stage there is no winner between Sky+ and Tivo, they both have their good and bad points.

Once tivo update the i.r codes for sky+ then that would create tv heaven


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## Guest

> Originally posted by GarySargent:
> *Couple of questions:
> 
> 1. Does Sky+ handle recordings expiring like TiVo - that is have a "Save Until" feature, or do you need to manually delete recordings if you run out of disc space.
> 
> 2. In the next software upgrade to TiVo we can do funky thinks like tell it to have a season pass for The Weather, but only ever keep one copy of it - that way you always have the latest weather report but don't fill up your hard disc with old ones. Anything advanced like this in Sky+ or is it all quite basic?
> 
> *


1. Recordings do expire, but this is a settable option with 3 choices:

a. You can have it entirely manual (ie you take care of all the deletions and if there is no room the programme wont get recorded

b. You can get warned when you are running low on space. You still have to delete your recordings to make more space.

c. You can have it entirely automatic where it will physically remove your programmes to make more room in the order of viewed programmes then un-viewed programmes.

2. At the moment you just has what tivo has (i.e the Series link option).

Interesting points of note I've seen :

The box has an optical out cable. The box it came in has a Dolby digital logo on it, so high hopes for DD films and sport in the future.

Programme clash warnings are also available.

It is possible to bookmark points in a single programme to return to later.

Box Office films are recordable, however you don't pay for them until you start watching them. When you start watching a film, you have a 24hr viewing window. If you don't watch it gets deleted in 7 days.

Like Tivo it remembers where you are in partially viewed programmes.

As confirmed, Sky+ and Sky use different remote codes, but Pronto and RC5000 users can rest easy as remote codes from Sky+ are 'learnable' with no problems. But beware, Tivo will not be in a rush to add Sky+ to their databases.

The new viweing card IS for the secondary box, you still use your primary one for Sky+


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## Guest

Another note...

Regarding padding... I had set up my Sky+ to record the Father Ted Series starting at 9.00p.m on E4. Interestingly, it kicked off recording at 8.58pm.. Auto padding at the start. Question is, what about the end? We shall see.


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## pauljs

Hang on a minute! Sky Plus is available and they haven't even sent me the info pack I asked for. Am I the only one not to have it?

BTW I'm not keen on the £10 charge for ??? and wish I was allowed to install myself. Yes I can do dishes too and I am not keen on a Sky "engineer" messing with my AV kit.









[This message has been edited by pauljs (edited 09-01-2001).]


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## GarySargent

I know what you mean - though when NTL came round they took one look at my equipment and told me to sort it out









(Thats an old picture by the way - I have even more stuff now!)

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


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## scgf

> Originally posted by GarySargent:
> *I know what you mean - though when NTL came round they took one look at my equipment and told me to sort it out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Gary, is that an Arcam AV50 I can see? You also appear to have an Arcam power amp. Do you bi-amp your speakers? I have an AV50 amp and 8P power amp, bi-amped to a pair of floor-standing Allison CD7 speakers and the sound is superb - I have never heard better.


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## GarySargent

Its an Arcam Alpha 10 Integrated Amp powering left and right front speakers. There's an Arcam Alpha 10 power amp with 3rd channel upgrade powering center and two rear speakers.

The dolby digital processing is done by the Pioneer SP-D07 processor.

Speakers are Kef Q65's front, Kef Q35's rear, Kef Model 200 Reference Series centre, and Rel Q400e subwoofer. All bi-wired but not bi-amped (yet!). And yes it all sounds absolutely superb









------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk

[This message has been edited by GarySargent (edited 09-01-2001).]


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## Automan

The have just finished installing Sky+

Took 2hrs on site for one chap (on a Sunday Morning).

Anyway snags.

1. Can't use that dish, it's on the chimney. Retaining safety harness fixing points would need fitting which could damage your chimney! Only option, new dish at a different location.

Did not think the neighbours would like the noise at 09:00 Sunday morning but luckily I installed a system in the Kitchen and thus he fitted a new quad lnb to that dish.

The system...
It took 30 mins to get record features turned on via sat. If you don't pay the £10.00 a month Sky+ won't record or pause anything.

Next my old card was set to the box, easy 3 minutes.

Using The system...
1. The SVHS output does not switch aspect mode! (RGB okay)
2. Engineer says units are made by Amstrad for Pace!
3. Can't find a single series that's linked thus no auto episode record facility.
4. Picture not so good as my Sony box (slight fringing of images but still good).
5. Does not work with TiVo but if you have an Open keyboard it can be reprogrammed to work with Sky+ by pressing all the correct buttons!
6. Optical output does no more than it did on my old Sony Digibox, just 48Khz two channel.
7. Dual LNB cable has a max run of 30 metres.
8. Box is same width as TiVo but slighly deeper.
9. Packaged box of Sky+ is even bigger than TiVo box packaging.

I took some photos and will post these soon.

Automan.

I took some images and will post very soon.


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## OzSat

> Originally posted by Automan:
> 
> 1. Can't use that dish, it's on the chimney. Retaining safety harness fixing points would need fitting which could damage your chimney! Only option, new dish at a different location.
> 
> *Installers don't like heights*
> 
> The system...
> It took 30 mins to get record features turned on via sat. If you don't pay the £10.00 a month Sky+ won't record or pause anything.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 1. The SVHS output does not switch aspect mode! (RGB okay)
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 2. Engineer says units are made by Amstrad for Pace!
> 
> *And are installed for ITV Digital free-of-charge for Sky ?*
> 
> 3. Can't find a single series that's linked thus no auto episode record facility.
> 
> *Try EastEnders*
> 
> 4. Picture not so good as my Sony box (slight fringing of images but still good).
> 
> *This is also being reported elsewhere*


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## Norm

Can you set it to record a radio programme directly? If so, this would be a big plus for me over TiVo.

------------------
Regards

Norman


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## sammoj

> Originally posted by GarySargent:
> *I know what you mean - though when NTL came round they took one look at my equipment and told me to sort it out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Thats an old picture by the way - I have even more stuff now!)
> 
> *


I assume the kitchen sink is in the cupboard


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## Automan

At 11:15 this morning my Sky+ had it's 1st brainstorm!

It turned itself off and just left the remote control led illuminated (it was playing back a recording it was making).

Pressed the Sky key and it came back on and started making the recording again from that point (start of movie now lost).

I suppose it may have been installing a software update and like TiVo restarts without even asking?

Also I checked - NO, it won't record a radio channel!

Perhaps they should call it Sky HalfPlus!

See some of my images at http://www.stormpages.com/morlocks/skyplus.htm should you wish...

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-02-2001).]


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## TivoUK

You are doing better than me.

My Sky+ turned up at 10:00 and after 30 minutes of phone calls it went away again









I wanted old digibox moved to another room, and Sky+ installing.

The guys job sheet had just installing the Sky+, his work for the day was mapped out at knowing what he had to do, ends up that he could / would not do the extra work and left.

Now trying again for a week on Monday, the 10th. Am home that day as BT coming to install ADSL. Wonder if I will have a good day then...........









[This message has been edited by TivoUK (edited 09-02-2001).]


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## Guest

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *
> It turned itself off and just left the remote control led illuminated (it was playing back a recording it was making).
> 
> Pressed the Sky key and it came back on and started making the recording again from that point (start of movie now lost).
> *


Same thing happened to me last night, came back from the pub to find sky+ switched off and my Con Air recording 'failed'









Not being able to record Radio channels is a pain.

Starting to miss using Tivo, not used the last couple of days, pointless until it can change channels.

How hard would it be for Tivo to update the I.R codes if they are already in the Open keyboard? I have tried various codes in tivos selections, nothing worked yet.


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## GarySargent

Thats a rediculous packaging box!

So does anyone fancy doing a Sky+ vs TiVo chart? I can stick it on http://www.tivoportal.co.uk somewhere if you want.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk

[This message has been edited by GarySargent (edited 09-02-2001).]


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## Automan

I also hope that Sky / Pace & TiVo can get the Sky+ IR codes added ASAP (looked for an update in IR database version, current rel is 87).

Compared with TiVo it's program guide is s**t

And with virtually no program series links (I refuse to check Eastenders) it's back to the manual days! However, the epg data does seem to follow actual start / finish times so perhaps when it does manage to make a recording it won't chop the end off!

If only we could have a Sky / TiVo intergrated unit - All us Sky viewers would have it made...

Of course, I could hook my Sony Digibox backup (got a new card) and link it to TiVo and my third dish feed (from my other dish on the chimney), pay another £12.99 a month and then TiVo could record again!

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-02-2001).]


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## GarySargent

There's no reason why TiVo wouldn't add the codes as it doesn't matter to them really if you have both Sky+ and TiVo - adding the codes doesn't help those that have Sky+ but not TiVo!

Automan have you tried some of the other IR codes TiVo has to see if any work? (Any Amstrad codes in there?!







)

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


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## Automan

> Automan have you tried some of the other IR codes TiVo has to see if any work? (Any Amstrad codes in there?!


Gary,
I've tried all the ones under Pace and following your suggestion will try the Amstrad ones...

Of course with Sky+ I can do this while it's recording as it uses the second lnb feed exclusively for making booked recordings (it's recording Objective Burma on 104 at the moment and so far it's not rebooted!).

Of course, the other marvel of Sky+ is its pretty led display indicating playback etc. This can be turned off.

Automan.

Followup...
Gary,
No joy so I followed TiVo's advice and telephoned Customer Services.



> *
> No code. It will be added but they have been busy working on a new software release and thus had no idea when a code would be availble.
> 
> TiVo is not designed to control another pvr.
> *




I still think it may be a couple of months...

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-02-2001).]


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## Guest

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *
> Of course, I could hook my Sony Digibox backup (got a new card) and link it to TiVo and my third dish feed (from my other dish on the chimney), pay another £12.99 a month and then TiVo could record again!
> 
> Automan.
> 
> [This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-02-2001).]*


Automan, is your new card for free channels or for £12.99 a month sub?

Thought about using my Panasonic box for free channels, (would need to get on the roof to run cable from the 3rd lnb feed) didn't want to pay sky £25 extra to install my second box when i can do it myself. I am not going to pay £12.99 for a second sub myself £52 a month for Tv is about my max.

(btw, did you look at the Quad LNB? is the 4 connectors the same as on the back of the digibox's?


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## sammoj

> Originally posted by TivoUK:
> *
> Now trying again for a week on Monday, the 10th. Am home that day as BT coming to install ADSL. Wonder if I will have a good day then...........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> [This message has been edited by TivoUK (edited 09-02-2001).]*


ADSL Installed - ha, you thought you had problems with Tivo - good luck, hope you don't use an Athlon PC or Via chipset....









Believe me your fun is about to begin, out of 40 days since I installed I have had 31 with interruptions, poor responses or no service at all - I'll live with the last 2 minutes of Eastenders being missing compared to BT OpenWoe.


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## cjgpers

automan,
You could test series link tonight on Disney at 11pm


------------------
Chris Gray


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## Guest

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *And with virtually no program series links (I refuse to check Eastenders) it's back to the manual days! However, the epg data does seem to follow actual start / finish times so perhaps when it does manage to make a recording it won't chop the end off!)*


Sky+ automatically pads the beginning and end by 2 mins either side. (That's assuming it is not recording either anything before or after).


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## Guest

> Originally posted by sammoj:
> *
> ADSL Installed - ha, you thought you had problems with Tivo - good luck, hope you don't use an Athlon PC or Via chipset....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe me your fun is about to begin, out of 40 days since I installed I have had 31 with interruptions, poor responses or no service at all - I'll live with the last 2 minutes of Eastenders being missing compared to BT OpenWoe.
> 
> *


My ADSL has been installed for at least a year and in that time it only has dropped twice and I've never called support.


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## sammoj

I am impressed - looking at the newsgroups this does not seem to be the general impression of BT Open World.

Anyway, enough of that - has nothing to do with Tivo......


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## Automan

Just watching Escape To Victory recorded form Sky Cinema...
Sky+ started recording 7 minutes before the movie started!

Watched UFO (6% disc space), The Fugitive (4% disc space) which were both hour shows....

I have now found some linked programs to record...

1. Stargate (which I could not find in the A-Z under Sci-Fi, had to go to Wednesday's progs to find it).
2. Voyager
3. Andromeda

However no series links for any of the following
1. The Twilight Zone
2. Sliders
3. Poldark
4. LA Law
5. Hawaii 5-0

And re some earlier question..
Yes, they sent me another viewing card but of course it would cost £12.99 a month to activate.

A picture of the quad lnb which has four normal (but very close together 'f' connectors) can be seen at http://www.stormpages.com/morlocks/skyplus.htm (It's a Philips SC519QS/S).

Automan.


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## GarySargent

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *A picture of the quad lnb which has four normal (but very close together 'f' connectors) can be seen at http://www.stormpages.com/morlocks/skyplus.htm (It's a Philips SC519QS/S).*


Agh - you cunningly removed your TiVo service number - but I'm a dab hand at reading the barcode form...







(not!)

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


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## Automan

TiVo number removed to protect the innocent!
My box now has 42 jobs booked to record over the next seven days (used picture & picture mode to view both TiVo & Sky+ screens).

When you get to the bottom of a page of booked events and you press page down it takes 4 seconds before the next page is displayed!

Also you cant jump to the end of a recording (to make sure its not been chopped off), the only option is to watch the whole thing at x12 speed! (You can however jump to the start of a recording).

As reported, if a recording is booked for 22:00 it starts at 21:58 unless its recording something ending at 22:00 in which case thats the changeover time.
I expected digital precision epg control, not just to stick a couple of minutes on Just means even more time is wasted at 12x ff.

Also, when you go out of fast forward it does not jump back a few seconds (like TiVo does). Thus you have to be really alert not to miss the action.

Automan.


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## TivoUK

Not a good weekend on the PVR front









Called the Thomson agent for Tivo (have a call in for the NICAM fix - then I can put my new 2 X 80 gig. discs in!!!







as they told me a week ago I was going to get a new box, but they did not have it yet.

Turns out they still do not have one to give me yet, so I hope it arrives this week so I can do the work this weekend.

So, if all goes well







I might have a new Tivo (upgraded), Sky + and ADSL by Monday.

Hands up if you think it will really happen like that ...









[This message has been edited by TivoUK (edited 09-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by TivoUK (edited 09-03-2001).]


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## Norm

Well I've cancelled my order for Sky+. It was supposed to have been installed on Saturday but they eventually told me at 2.30 that the engineer was ill and the earliest new date they could give me was in 2 weeks, after I will be in hospital for an operation.

The delay and your posts have given me pause for thought. The fact that TiVo cannot control the new box (and I amagine won't be able to for some time) and the inability to record radio are big minuses for me.

I can always reconsider later on and, who knows, it may even be a little cheaper by then. I'll probably go for it once I know TiVo can control the viewing channel. I can't be bothered to have to keep changing the DigiBox channel so TiVo can record and it's pointless if you can't record on TiVo 2 programmes on different channels on the same day (when I'm out).

PS Since starting to type this post, I have just had a message that the engineer is arriving today between 12 and 3. Too late - I've cancelled!

------------------
Regards

Norman


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## Automan

I have just been reading the manual for my Sky+

It says on page 11 about live pause that if you do pause your Sky+ set top box will then record until the end of the programme.

Does this indicate that you then miss the beginning of the next program?

If so, bad sky+

I shall try it later...

I also note that the VCR in socket supports RGB input.

Also to confirm page 32 says


> Your Sky+ set top box cannot record audio-only programmes or interactive applications.


However, pin control works ok on rated recording both to book them to record and for playback so if you have young children this must be a plus.

Box office events can also be recorded and if you don't watch them no charge. If you do watch you can view as many times as you wish for a 24hr slot from the 1st time you watch. Auto delete will then occur (some movies may have extra limits imposed to change these values).

Also changing channels is instant as is the on-screen guides.

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-03-2001).]


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## Norm

If the DigiBox is off, will it turn itself on to record?

------------------
Regards

Norman


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## Automan

Sky+ only needs to be on in standby mode to make recordings. Thus no fears form power cuts / software updates (unless the update happens while it's recording?).

P.S. My unit is being fed by a 625VA ups and it registers a 7% load.

Automan.


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## Norm

Can I repeat a question I asked earlier as now you are getting more experienced in using Sky+.

With an ordinary DigiBox you can use your Personal Planner from the EPG automatically to change the viewing channel to a particular programme. Do you still have that facility in the Sky+ box - ie without recording?

If so, I presume it changes the viewing channel and not the recording channel? If so, presumably you can set up all the programmes you want to record on TiVo so that the Sky+ box changes the viewing channel so TiVo can record them.

Will this work? At least it would mean that you only have to duplicate your settings on the 2 boxes and not have to rely on manually changing the Sky channel whenever TiVo is about to record something.

------------------
Regards

Norman


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## Guest

Yes, reminders can be set to change channel independently of making recordings. Thus it's possible to set tivo to record something on Sky+ and record it as long as you set the duplicated AutoChange reminder to go with it. 

Also something I didn't see before, reminders also can have the Series Link tied to them as well. So you can autochange every episode of EastEnders if you wish, without recording any of them.


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## Automan

Norm,
I think not. If you book a recording with the pp it uses the second lnb and does not display the channel it's recording.

If you set the pp for a reminder and the box is on it only pops up with a message suggesting you change channels (I think, will confirm later to see if it actually changes the channel).

If the reminder does change channel unattended this will be great and will help tivo make recordings.

Thanks for the idea Norm.

P.S. Not used to the pp as it never made to my model of Sony Digibox.

Automan.


----------



## ChrisA

This point was mentioned earlier but is CRITICAL to getting your SKY+ Box. If the dish is on the chimney & it is single brick ALL standard installers would have to drill a 20mm hole in the thing for health and saftey codes, or as in my case and many others get a trained hight's team with the correct equipment to perform the install. I feel this point should have been raised during the booking process so as to save all the rebooking and delay etc. I am now in two minds based on other things I have read about just cancelling the whole thing!! By the way I was the installers 3rd cancellation for the day due to this problem. So it is not just a flyer, and it is only noon.


----------



## Automan

Yes, the chap who installed my system who was a field service tech (rather than a system installer) said one of the three he was doing on Saturday had to be cancelled because the dish was on the chimney.

Automan.


----------



## Guest

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *It says on page 11 about live pause that if you do pause your Sky+ set top box will then record until the end of the programme.
> 
> Does this indicate that you then miss the beginning of the next program?
> 
> [This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-03-2001).]*


Don't know if you got around to trying this, but you DO miss the start of the next program. When the program finishes (plus the 2 mins) you get the message 'press select to go back to live tv' when you do it goes back to realtime


----------



## RichardBourke

It's interesting how we all thought thought that Sky+ sounded great until people actually saw what it was like!

It sounds to me like Tivo is loads better - if it had padding, then it should kill Sky+. Maybe it will work just how Tivo were hoping: that Sky will do a lot of the marketting and advertising for the PVR concept, and then people will buy Tivo because it is better.

Like Norm I won't get Sky+ if it can't record radio channels. 

Richard.


----------



## Automan

> Will this work? At least it would mean that you only have to duplicate your settings on the 2 boxes and not have to rely on manually changing the Sky channel whenever TiVo is about to record something


Norm,
Alas no! The PP reminder message just stays onscreen waiting for you to press select or backup and thus it won't change channel for a TiVo recording.

And yes, the pause live TV SUCKS!
If for example at 19:25 you answer the phone while watching the simpsons and press pause - all well and good.

15 minutes later you press play and it resumes. However it stops recording at the end of the first simpsons and thus you miss the 1st 10 minutes of whats on next....

This really is VERY POOR SHOW!

Automan.


----------



## Automan

I think I now have my 1st Sky+ bug!
Tried to see if you could get subtitles to work on playback - answer yes!

Then I went to watch another recording from UK Gold.
With the extra 2 mins on the front I selected ff x12 to get to the program. One snag, it gets stuck at high speed and won't respond to any controls. I also noted that when this happend the onscreen rotating green display stops rotating and only moved erratically (does not effect the led display on stb front).

I have turned subtitles off and so far it seems okay again but I shall replay the recording from start to confirm.

By the way, it does record the old style teletext from UK Gold but it's very erratic (I seem to recall it was like that live on sky?).

Automan.


----------



## Guest

Is the two minute padding really enough to stop the missing of the end of some programs ? I would not have thaught so.


----------



## Automan

> Is the two minute padding really enough to stop the missing of the end of some programs ? I would not have thaught so


So far it's been okay and some channels seem to adjust the epg data start/end times to match the programs actual start/end times.

It for example manage to capture both "The Simpsons" on BBC2 tonight without chopping any starts/ends off

Just rechecked the fast forward (and rewind) and yes, the problem is cleared if subtitles are turned off (the fault was repeatable).

For info, Sky+ seems to use space up as follows...

130 Twilight Zone (29mins, 2%)
109 Poldark (62mins, 6%)
102 The Simpsons (25mins, 2%)

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Some small extra info...
1. Yes, the TV Link mouse works with Sky+ but your old Sky remote won't. (setup menu for second rf port power in the same place as original digiboxes).

2. Open keypad, to reprogram for Sky+ proceed as follows
A. Press TV
B. Press Select & Blue together (two led flashes)
C. Press 2
D. Press Select (two led flashes)

Done...
This also works on the Sky remote but most buttons don't seem to work (may vary on age of remote).

To revert the remote back press 1 in step C. (or take the batts out for 30 mins).

Automan.


----------



## sammoj

Can you watch one program on the tv link whilst viewing another on the main scart output or does it function like a current digibox where both TV's display the same channel. If so, I think it's "mysky" with a panasonic digiboc for me with my Tivo.

John


----------



## Automan

> Can you watch one program on the tv link whilst viewing another on the main scart output or does it function like a current digibox where both TV's display the same channel. If so, I think it's "mysky" with a panasonic digiboc for me with my Tivo.


John,
I'm afraid not. It only has one MPEG decoder output stage and thus only can pump out one thing at a time.

However, I've now watched 14 recording and none have had their start's or ends cutoff and the picture is a bit better as it not remanufactured mpeg.

Automan.


----------



## sammoj

OK - Thanks for the prompt response.

So, this doesn't solve my problem - I want to be able to watch one Sky channel while my Son watches bloody Rugrats!

It looks like I stick with onDigital for 6 more months paired with the Tivo and then think about MySky. From what I have seen so far Tivo appears to be the superior product with V2.5.5 going to knock the socks of Sky+ - lets just hope they survive the Sky+ marketing battle.

Can't work out what is going on with Sky buying into Tivo and launching Sky+ - boy would I love to be a fly on the chairmans wall just to find out what the real game is.

Oh well, time will tell.

John


----------



## Guest

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *the TV Link mouse works with Sky+ but your old Sky remote won't. (setup menu for second rf port power in the same place as original digiboxes).
> 
> *


There goes my idea of getting tivo to control sky+ box


----------



## richard plumb

see, Sky+ isn't all doom and gloom. We can now compare and contrast the two systems, which is good for everyone.

About the pausing of live TV - if I pause during Eastenders, and it gets to the end and brings up the message 'press select to return to live TV', can I still unpause and watch the end of eastenders? Is it actually saved as a recording?


----------



## Automan

> I want to be able to watch one Sky channel while my Son watches bloody Rugrats!


You can only watch one live channel with Sky+
If you want to watch two live channels you need the second box option at an extra £12.99 per month.

True, if you pause Eastenders it will record it to the end of the episode but you won't get to see the next program...

I guess TiVo's 30 minute buffer & Sky+'s record to program end both have merits.

With TiVo if you are away from your TV for 45 minutes the 30 minute buffer will expire and thus you will miss the program end. Sky+ however will just record to the program end and wait for you to press the play button.

P.S. I have had the fast forward / rewind problem again where it gets stuck at high speed and won't respond to the remote (rotating graphic circle goes erratic when this happens). Anyone else had this problem? Only so far on chn 109 & 124 perhaps bit rate related?

Automan.


----------



## njkmoore

I agree with RichardBourke - it was a very unfair comparison to make between TiVo and Sky+, before the latter had been rolled out. We are currently using software for TiVo that has hardly changed in over a year and is about to be updated. Comparing that with an idealised Sky+, that is assumed bug-free, hardly seems reasonable. This is especially true as it is the glitches that cause the most aggrovation and we are only just beginning to see the Sky+ problems.

My personal prediction is that Sky will come under a lot of pressure from advertisers to prevent ad skipping. This issue is looming ominously in the states and will surely follow here. This may become the USP of TiVo vs combined boxes.

Having said all that, TiVo must get 2.5.5 out soon - roll out the beta please!

[This message has been edited by njkmoore (edited 09-04-2001).]


----------



## sammoj

> Originally posted by richard plumb:
> *see, Sky+ isn't all doom and gloom. We can now compare and contrast the two systems, which is good for everyone.
> 
> B]*


*

I never doubted that Tivo would be a technically superior product, it is the marketing & strange relationship with Sky that had me concerned.

I am, however, relieved to see so many new members popping up here recently after Sky+ is released. This inferes that they made the choice and opted for Tivo - this is good news for all of us who have invested in the little chap.

John*


----------



## TivoUK

Question for the Sky + owners.

I record stuff for myself from the digibox on the Tivo, with the digibox set to widescreen. However, I also record stuff for a US friend and dub them to tape at the weekend.

At the moment I have to change the digibox from 16X9 to 4X3 when I record his stuff and that is a bit of a pain as I work away during the week and it means that weeks shows are 4X3 or letterboxed.

With the Sky+ recording the data stream, if I just change the TV option from 16X9 to 4X3 when I dub his shows to tape, will shows recorded with the setting at 16X9 play back in 4X3 format??


----------



## Automan

Just recording a bit of the 13th Floor from chn 305 (Sky Mov W/S) with my normal Sky+ box setings (16x9).

Box says by the way about this recording

"PartRec: 1m, Startmissed, 10.00pm Tue 4 Used 1%"

Plays back perfect in 16x9 mode

Now setting Sky+ to 4:3 Letterbox

Plays back perfect in 4:3 letterbox (on my 4:3 telly in kitchen)

New setting Sky+ to 4:3 Letterbox Off

Again perfect fullscreen 4:3 playback on a 4:3 telly.

So yes TivoUK you can play the recordings back with the correct aspect ratio on 4:3 or 16:9 kit.

Another Sky+ bonus!

Now back to The Simpsons which Sky+ tells me I'm 5 minutes into.

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-04-2001).]


----------



## pauljs

Automan


Please, is there any chance of seeing some screen shots (or Photos) of the Sky + EPG, menu's etc

Thanks for the pictures of the install on your web page.

I'm surprised they have gone for a quad LNB, My dish is a ground mount in the garden so I would have to run cable myself otherwise they would walk away as it would be a non standard install


----------



## Automan

Pauljs,
The engineer did 1st offer to stick a third Sky dish on the house but I thought at 09:00am the neighbours might get slightly annoyed at someone drilling more holes!

Thus he said we could use that dish which is well secured to the wall and of course is easy to service - it suits me.

I shall also take some Sky+ menu shots very soon (via the S-VHS output to my PC).

Automan.


----------



## TivoUK

Thanks for the info on the 4:3 16:9 question, put my mind to rest and my US friend will be pleased with his recordings!

Now, if only they turn up on Monday as promised and can do the install this time


----------



## GarySargent

I've had an email from someone who claims Sky said that he could have a lifetime subscription to Sky+ for £100 !

I've double checked it with him and he says: "All I have to do is tell the engineer at installation that I want the lifetime sub of £100 and it will be done. I queried it with the sales guy and he assured me it was available."

First I've heard of this...

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## ChrisA

As a result of Gary's last post I have just phoned SKY to check up about this £100 lifetime sub. The SKY represntative checked up through supervisor level regaring this matter on my behalf. I have been authorised by the person on the phone to state that this is NOT the case there is no £100 lifetime sub option!! The representative has now passed on the information to other people at SKY to make sure via the Internet that this apparent miss-information is stopped.


----------



## Guest

Maybe this is a confusion of the staff offer. Apparently Sky staff are entitled to a lifetime subscription to the Sky+ system. Except that was supposed to be £50 not £100.

It's not available until the 17th anyway. If indeed it is available at all.


----------



## Automan

A request was made for some Sky+ screen images...

Thus visit http://www.stormpages.com/morlocks/samples/samples.htm for some samples....

Please note that each of the sub pages from this page (eight of), may take up to 2 mins to load on a V90 connection.

Automan.


----------



## chimaera

> Originally posted by nemity:
> *Interestingly, it kicked off recording at 8.58pm.. Auto padding at the start. Question is, what about the end? We shall see.
> *


That might not be quite such a good feature if/when advert skip is disabled!


----------



## GarySargent

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *A request was made for some Sky+ screen images...
> 
> Thus visit http://www.stormpages.com/morlocks/samples/samples.htm for some samples....*


Thanks Automan - very interesting.

My initial impressions are that it looks a little clunky to use but obviously its hard to tell from screen shots (especially when you aren't used to using it).

Whats it like to use? Is it easy or are you always having to think about what button you need to press? Seems to overuse the colour buttons.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## chimaera

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *A request was made for some Sky+ screen images...*


Very interesting, thanks for that.

It looks like the EPG has less space for an individual programme description than TiVo. However, it may be more accurate







Since it only has 7 days of guide data, what happens when you go on holiday for longer than that?


----------



## Automan

> Whats it like to use? Is it easy or are you always having to think about what button you need to press? Seems to overuse the colour buttons.


Gary, I must admit for the first couple of time I pressed the red button thinking it was for record!
Other than that, it's okay and if it's for a user upgrading from a standard Digibox I'm sure they will get used to the changes very quick.

One does have to get used to returning to the Personal Planner to delete what you have just watched and press yellow. I suppose they expect people to just let the items auto delete?

Automan.


----------



## Automan

> what happens when you go on holiday for longer than that?


If the series links were all in place and your recordings don't add up to more than 20hrs you are okay.

Of course, I can't afford to go on holiday anymore!

You can press the Information button on a item in the EPG for more information on it.

Automan.


----------



## xneilj

Hey thanks for that Automan. Interesting to see it in action. Personally I think I prefer the TiVo interface (too many large fonts and garish colour schemes in use on Sky+ for my liking) but as Gary says, you don't really know what it's like until you start using it.









Neil.

------------------
See the TiVo UK FAQ at http://www.tivoukfaq.com


----------



## Automan

As my TiVo box is not much use linked to Sky+ (till an IR database update or someone finds out if you can press all the right buttons on the STB to change it's IR codes) it's not doing much.

Thus I've hooked it up to my ITV Digital Box!
I impressed that it converted my season passes that were on Sky channels to record from ITV Digital equivalents (except Sci-Fi ones that have ??? ?? for channel numbers).

I did however note that IR channel changing was a little "erratic" - Not a problem with Sky+

Also if you think the onscreen menu's are bright, take a look at this http://www.stormpages.com/morlocks/samples/page9.htm (just added)

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-05-2001).]


----------



## xneilj

You've probably tried this already but if you're using it with a FAST IR setting, try dropping it to medium. What STB do you have anyway?

Neil.

------------------
See the TiVo UK FAQ at http://www.tivoukfaq.com


----------



## Automan

> You've probably tried this already but if you're using it with a FAST IR setting, try dropping it to medium. What STB do you have anyway?


It's the new Pioneer model.
In medium speed the box only thinks the digits are to far apart and says no such channel as it repsonds to one digit.

Thus it's on fast.

IR is a major downfall with the current UK TiVo model but I recall the new software release should improve it? But when?

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

Automan I'm real grateful for these pictures and explanations, but would you mind producing a Macromedia Flash demonstration programme so I can try using it - oh and then if you can hook up the box to your PC and let me control and view it remotely that would be superb









------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## Guest

Automan....

There is another menu, the installer setup. Press services then select system setup. On that screen press 0 then 1 then select. It brings up more options, be careful though one of them you can erase your whole hard disks recording at a touch of the select button to "confirm" argh!


----------



## Automan

Yes, I assume it's option 7? Was not bold enought to select it!

Anyway, I noticed a cosmetic error on a menu so with that and the FF problem and duplicate enries in the PP I thought a call to Sky was in hand see http://www.stormpages.com/morlocks/samples/page10.htm for evidence of errors.

Anyway, I paused chn 998 to get the number just before 20:00. At that point it got stuck with the press Select or Backup to resume liveTV. It would not. Not till I ff to catchup with live and then pressed Sky. Perhaps this bug occurs when you have paused live when it starts a recording (Stargate).

Anyway, I explained that - no one else has complained.
fast forward sometime erratic - no one else has complained.
Dialing Typ message onscreen - It did not do this after 20:00 on my system or theirs!

They did suggest I try resetting the system (mains plug out) Said I've done that plus it's recording Stargate.

Anyway, they said they would esculate my problems.

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

Yes but they also say that no one has reported the fact that the digiboxes reboot all the time. Did they offer to send an engineer out to you for £50?









------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## mrtickle

I understand that that scam has gone up to £60


----------



## Guest

I am sure that if your box is under 1 year old (which sky+ is of course) that the engineer call out is free? 

It was when i had alot of problems with my old Pace box's. Hope pace's sky+ box is more reliable, don't want to go through that again.


----------



## Automan

Just in case it's signal / LNB related (the FF/RW problem) I've just linked the LNB2 input to my original dish (it does however give lower readings than the new quad lnb).

Anyone else having problems with Sky+ ?

Automan.


----------



## Guest

i have had fast forward 'crash', fast forward being stuck on screen but not actually moving (only way out was to press tv guide). Only seemed to happen on 1 recording, and was repeatable on that recording.


----------



## Automan

Reeves29,
I glad to know I'm not alone!
Many Thanks

I suspect the user interface during playback does not cope with glitches in satelite reception.

P.S. I set my TiVo (now linked to ITV Digital) to record an episode of M*A*S*H this morning from Sky One and yes! It cut the last two minutes off!

Perhaps Sky will run everything two minutes late to p*** TiVo owners off?

Automan.


----------



## Guest

AUTOMAN........Hi I'm quite new to the forum and think its great. I have recently ordered Sky+ and am interested to find out more about the Bookmark function. Is it available yet and if so is it any good? If it is possible could you post a couple of pics of the bookmark function? 

Thanks a lot.

------------------
GM


----------



## Automan

> could you post a couple of pics of the bookmark function?


Will start taking some screen dumps now...

Done! http://www.stormpages.com/morlocks/samples/samples.htm And select Page 11

Also bookmarks do work with livetv pause mode.

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-06-2001).]


----------



## Guest

AUTOMAN!!! Thank you so much for them, many thanks!!

What do you personally think of Sky+? Obviously at the mo its maybe not quite as good as TIVO but its OK yeah?

------------------
GM


----------



## Automan

GM,
Yes Sky+ is okay and one of my colleagues at work who had ITV Digital ordered one today. Install on 15th of this month.

Product not perfect and not as smart as TiVo but does have features that TiVo does not.

*Plus Point's*
Less Boxes In Your Living Room
Fast Operation and channel surfing
Always Records The Correct Channel
Bookmarks
No Daily Phone Call
Can record Boxoffice 18 rated events
Parental control on recordings
PCM CD Quality Sound
Always broadcast quality picture
So far I've yet to miss the start or end of a recording
Noise level generated by box no worse than TiVo
Can record one channel while you watch another (or the same).
Only takes a minute after powerup before you can play rather than 3hours).
Box has more "style" to the naked eye.
State Of The Art product

*Minus Point's*
Only 7 Days Of Program Guide.
Personal Planner is primitive with only some series links.
Remote won't control your amp.
Only works with Sky TV channels that are in the EPG
No slight rewind after fast forward so you have to be quick not to miss the action (when your skip the adds).

If I was going to buy a Personal Television Recorder (PTR) I think I would go for Sky+

However I would prefer a intergated TiVo Sky box (TiVo+) and am keen to see/use the next beta release of TiVo software.

I'm sure others would disagree with some of the above...

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

As I've just said in another thread the two products are different enough to complement each other nicely and its really up to individual consumers to decide which product is right for them.

Neither is really better than the other overall, but each does some things better than the other.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## GarySargent

Now that we've got over the initial excitement of the Sky+ launch I'm going to retitle this thread "Sky+ discussion" and if we could try and keep all Sky+ discussions in this thread that would be superb









Thanks.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## Guest

> Originally posted by Automan:
> Fast Operation and channel surfing


You say this but does it differ from box to box (the signal quality etc.) or are they all generally quick?

P.S Thanks for your view!

------------------
GM


----------



## Yorkshirelad6

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *Plus Point's*
> .
> .
> No Daily Phone Call
> .


How do you know? It might not need a daily phone call for listing updates, but maybe it is making them for other reasons?

Apparantly (I've not seen it) the Sky+ sign-up contract makes a big deal about the phone line being left connected, and also implies that viewing habits may be transmitted to Sky...

I'd be curious to know what the installation engineers are making of this phone line connection requirement. In the heady days of "normal" Sky installations some people did not get connected to the phone ("too much effort" for the engineer). I know some of them who later had problems with Sky, as the phone connection was a condition of the subsidised deal, and Sky were able to check by calling up the STB

YorkshireLad6


----------



## Guest

My understanding of the phone line is nothing more than for validation of ensuring that the box is connected to a uk phone line.

Since it receives all its info via the dish (Shedules, Software updates etc.) it wont need to make unsolicited phone calls. And what would be the point? 

The only time I know it makes calls is when the user asks it to (ie Online Banking etc).


----------



## Automan

Channel surfing is a fast as any modern Digibox as are most of the menu's. Infact late last night I went to use my TiVo to replay a movie from Carlton Cinema and after using Sky+ they seemed really slow & cranky.

*Also, I did not have to watch the movie as TiVo got the IR wrong and select 88 and not 28! Of course it selected 28 at recording end!*



> No Daily Phone Call


It does not use the phone for any program guide data but of course does make the ocassional call if you change your pin, ppv event etc.
Viewing habbit data I suppose may be uploaded but I suspect it would not do this daily.

Also if it's like earlier boxes it's V90 modem can detect that the phone line is in use (unlike TiVo seems to wheter detection is turned off or on).

Automan.


----------



## Guest

When I ordered my Sky+ box it was made very clear to me that as part of the Sky+ subscription I aggree to it being connected to a telephone line for the purpose of monitoring viewing habits and what kind of programs I record. This would be completely anonymous and used for market research purposes.


----------



## Guest

Finally managed to order Sky+ (slight cash flow problems). It is installed next Friday (14th).

Automan, my browser does not seem to load the "Michael Knight would be proud" picture (page 9). Are there any problems with this that you know of ?.

Mark, sky did at no point tell me that the viewing information would be kept anonymous. They only said that it would not be passed to a 3rd party. Are you sure about the anonymous part ?

Ross.


----------



## kmusgrave

> Originally posted by GarySargent:
> *As I've just said in another thread the two products are different enough to complement each other nicely and its really up to individual consumers to decide which product is right for them.
> *


So we have to have both? OK - sounds fine to me.....

Kevin


----------



## Automan

> Automan, my browser does not seem to load the "Michael Knight would be proud" picture (page 9). Are there any problems with this that you know of ?.


The video should be ok but it's only hosted on free webspace so it may be slow (wehn it works, you will see the Michael Knight connection!).

I expect Sky want the same kind of marketing info out of their boxes as TiVo do out of their's.

Automan.


----------



## ChrisA

SKY+ with dish located at same hight as Automan = OK
SKY+ with dish located on chimney = SKY--. I posted earlier regarding the hight problem. However I am now seriously fed up. (Typical British understatement!). Looks like weeks if not MONTHS before they can instal my system, because of the location of the blasted dish. Gary this is an obvious MAJOR advantage for TiVo. I have made several phone calls to SKY during the week and recieved a different reason for no progress on each occasion. (Nothing new there then!) As I write this I am still waiting for someone to contact me yet again, to fix a date. FYI on a previous phone call I was told it could take this long to get someone out to me.


----------



## GarySargent

You can buy a Sky+ box from Comet, Currys etc and get an independant installer to sort things out for you (who will be more inclined to go on the roof etc). According to the Sky+ warrenty though if not installed by Sky this becomes void - however I'd be amazed if they could make that stick in UK law.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## pr1uk

> Originally posted by GarySargent:
> *You can buy a Sky+ box from Comet, Currys etc and get an independant installer to sort things out for you (who will be more inclined to go on the roof etc). According to the Sky+ warrenty though if not installed by Sky this becomes void - however I'd be amazed if they could make that stick in UK law.*


...................
i think the law on this matter is if the dish is below the gutter then its ok above the gutter and planning permission is needed. so Sky will not place a dish on the roof and end up liable to prosecution.

Peter


----------



## ChrisA

Just checked up with the credit card company. You guessed it SKY charged my credit card for the box and relocation of the old box on the 3rd September (£375) which was the original install date. Now I am really pi**ed off.


----------



## GarySargent

> Originally posted by pr1uk:
> *i think the law on this matter is if the dish is below the gutter then its ok above the gutter and planning permission is needed. so Sky will not place a dish on the roof and end up liable to prosecution.
> 
> Peter*


I was meaning I don't think they can claim the warrenty is void just because you installed it yourself - not unless they can prove it only failed because it was installed incorrectly.

I think its more to do with engineers being insured for going on the roof rather than planning permission - thats your problem not Sky's.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## ChrisA

One final winge about SKY+. SKY take your money, cannot install due to height. When you escalate the call to executive level you learn that this height thing is a MASSIVE problem for SKY, trained teams are many MONTHS behind, if indeed they are available. They do not have a clue as to when any team may even be trained for my area. Birmingham is obviously sparsely populated!! I asked if I might get it this year. "Sorry I don't have a clue, might well be next year, oh and don't go to an independant because SKY have to install it!" Bu**er off SKY give me my money back now and you know where you can stick your SKY----------.


----------



## Automan

Sounds like Sky should buy some "Cherry Pickers" to help install dishes.

I note today that the TiVo IR database has moved up to Rel 88.

*Does by chance it now support Sky+ ?*

Automan.


----------



## ChrisA

Not if it is on the chimney! Sorry Automan could not resist the reply. By the way top marks for the web pages on SKY+, glad someone knows what they are doing. By the way SKY contacted me again to try to rescue the situation and promised someone would contact me on Monday to arrange an install date. We shall see.....


----------



## Automan

ChrisA,
Good luck with your install...
I'm sure Sky are not happy about all these legal/safety hassles re installing dishes.

Today I have also been getting "mpeg blocky" recordings mainly on the sci-fi channel!

I get this using either of my dishes and thus am wondering if these pace/amstrad boxes have a less sensitive tuner than my last digibox.

I may try and "tweak" the dish alignment in the morning...

Automan.


----------



## Automan

I have a Sky+ problem!
I no longer get any sound on two Sky Channels! - All the rest seem okay.
Anyway Sky 310 & 312 are silent on my box via livetv / pause or record playback.
After 20min chat to Sky they are going to get an engineer out. I find it hard to believe that a box fault could loose sound on two channels only?
Anyone else got a prob with those channels?

My Sci-Fi channel reception is also poor and having compared my dishes original lnb with the new one. It seems the distance from the feedhorn to dish is different. If so, this would affect the performance of the dish. I think I will get a 60cm dish for genral better reception...

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Since giving my box more fresh air the picture on the sci-fi channel is okay again and no loss of audio on certain movie channels! - Must be the quality Amstrad construction! (The box get's a *lot* hotter than a TiVo, 89.2f in a 67.8f ambient).

Last night I set it to record all Father Ted's from E4

It did get them all but the last three episode ends were in the next recordings. However it did get them all.

Did anyone record them with their TiVo? How did it get on?

This morning even starting two minutes early it missed the start of the Doctor Who on chn 109.

These are the only missed start/ends so far...

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-09-2001).]


----------



## Richardr

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *Must be the quality Amstrad construction!*


I think the Amstrad thing is a bit of an urban myth in the making?

Amstrad are not a manufacturing company. They design and then market products, but they are made for them by someone else, usually abroad.

I believe that the Amstrad digiboxes are actually made for them by Samsung, so the chances that Amstrad are manufacturing for another manufacturer is nil.


----------



## Automan

> Must be the quality Amstrad construction!


Richard,
It must be the Pace contruction...

I always found my old orginal Pace Digibox got pretty hot as well. Perhaps they have shares in UK power companies









Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-09-2001).]


----------



## Richardr

You should try their cable boxes. The ntl (4000 series) one that I have is hot enough to cook on.


----------



## Automan

Richard,
It would seem that Pace have outsourced a lot of manufacturing see http://www.appliancezone.com/html/news/CE116.htm

Also I can't wait for these 20/30 new features to arrive for Sky+







See http://www.appliancezone.com/html/news/CE183.htm

This link also seems to indicate a Pace / Amstrad http://209.67.253.180/enews/Issue/FreeIssues/2000/01242000/z0124pace32.asp as the Pace bossman used to work for Amstrad!

All good stuff

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-09-2001).]


----------



## Guest

Help!!!

Does anyone know how to configure the OLD SKY remote to control the SKY+ box? Obviously it wont record etc but I have a TV-LINK and cant change the cannel with the old remote. PLease help someone!!! 

Otherwise, it is SUPERB!!!!! highly recommended!!!!

------------------
GM


----------



## Guest

Don't think anyone has found a way yet (if there is 1) to change the i.r codes on the old sky remote.

Automan, have you had any failed recordings yet on sky+? Had a few now, had it big time in the ear tonight after 'down to earth' failed to record. Haven't come up with any reason or pattern to it yet. Red light was on for the whole 1hrs 4mins.


----------



## Guest

If thats the case its BAD news!!! I have a keypad as well!!! GO DAMMIT!!!! 

------------------
GM


----------



## Guest

The open keypad can be reprogrammed for sky+, the sky engineer who installed your system should have done it. Not sure how its done myself (press some keys in order), think Automan posted the code earlier in this thread, or try http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/


----------



## Automan

gmilward,
Open keypad can be reprogrammed for Sky+. However existing Sky remotes only work a bit (tv guide , box office keys but not numeric)

New Sky+ remotes can be ordered for £35.00 or of course open keypads for under £20.00

See http://www.stormpages.com/morlocks/samples/samples.htm (near bottom) for info to re-program open keypad.

No major recording errors yet and it's always recorded when the red lights on - so far!

I was supposed to get a call today to confirm when an engineer could come out to check my missing sound (which now works). No call.

Also my box gets hot, a fellow Sky+ user on digitalspy says his fan runs all the time. I never seen my fan in action.

The top of my box is about 90f and I have now put my probe in the back hole where the fan is. At that location it's 98.1f so heaven knows how hot it is inside!

I don't suppose it's worth ringing Sky. After all when I told them I had no sound on two channels they told me to check my scart plugs! So what chance have I asking about a cooling fan?

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

It would probably be worthwhile someone with Sky+ sending a Pronto file to either Ted or myself if you want TiVo to control your Sky+ box sometime soon.

Suggest you post back here if you do this so others know not to bother.

I presume they will need digits 0 to 9 and the enter key.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## Automan

> Automan, have you had any failed recordings yet on sky+? Had a few now, had it big time in the ear tonight after 'down to earth' failed to record. Haven't come up with any reason or pattern to it yet. Red light was on for the whole 1hrs 4mins.


Reeves29, on the Sky+ Planner page, is the event that failed listed. If so, if you press your i (information) key it should give the recordings status. Does it indicate anything or has the item gone from the list?

Automan.


----------



## Guest

They are still on the planner as 'failed', when i press 'i' says 'unknown error'.


----------



## ChrisA

This one is for Automan:

Well SKY did not get back to me re SKY+ install. I contacted them again, lady put the phone down on me. Yes I was being sarcastic at the time! Could not help it, I am normally quite reserved but this has truely got me going. So I wrote a strong but acurate email to SKY regarding this situation. I don't expect anything to come of it after all they can't install till 2002 so why should they reply.


----------



## Guest

> Originally posted by GarySargent:
> *It would probably be worthwhile someone with Sky+ sending a Pronto file to either Ted or myself if you want TiVo to control your Sky+ box sometime soon
> *


I would be willing to lend someone at Tivo HQ my sky+ remote (don't have a pronto) if i get it back in the condition i sent it. I use a learning remote so the loss of the sky+ remote wouldn't be a problem for a couple of weeks.


----------



## ChrisA

Well I am feeling much better now, just visited the SKY newsgroups to find many others having a complete disaster with the SKY+ install. Oh well thank god for TiVo.


----------



## Automan

I have a Pronto and will attempt tonite to teach it Sky+ codes ready to be TiVoed.

Automan.


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## Automan

Gary,
I have just emailed you the Pronto codes for Sky+
If you could relay this to Ted it would be cool.

While doing this by the way, my Sky+ box was playing back tonights second Simpson epsisode and recording Adromeda.

Anyway, picture seize up, box making a repetivive hard disc noise. I pressed the Sky key which brought up the menu but no more.

Only option. pull the plug out!

It starts recording Adrmonda again from that point so 1st 75% of episode gone! Just as well on next sunday am I think.

Still no cooling fan... does anyones cooling fan run?

Many Thanks again Gary.

Automan.


----------



## chimaera

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *I have a Pronto and will attempt tonite to teach it Sky+ codes ready to be TiVoed.*


Hey Automan, is there anything that you *haven't* got? Are you in competion with Gary or something









[This message has been edited by chimaera (edited 09-10-2001).]


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## GarySargent

I nearly bought the new colour Pronto a few weeks back but £750 was far too expensive for a remote - even by my standards









Looks the dogs b******s though! http://www.remotecentral.com/prontopro/index.html



Anyway I've received the Pronto file from Automan now and passed it on to TiVo. Thanks.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk

[This message has been edited by GarySargent (edited 09-10-2001).]


----------



## Automan

> Hey Automan, is there anything that you haven't got?


Two things...

1. Money (I'm sort of in the *RED*)
2. Sense - I should know by now that new gadgets seldom work

Automan.


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## chimaera

Good answer!


----------



## Norm

> Originally posted by GarySargent:
> *I nearly bought the new colour Pronto a few weeks back but £750 was far too expensive for a remote - even by my standards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


I'm not trying to persuade you, Gary, but if any one is interested Mike Huggins is selling the Pronto Pro for £695 www.letsautomate.com

By the way, his website also says that for the 1st 250 orders he's including free the RF base (although I'm not entirely sure what that is) which he normally will charge £120 for.

------------------
Regards

Norman

[This message has been edited by Norm (edited 09-10-2001).]


----------



## GarySargent

Get away from me satan









------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## Automan

Pace now have info on Sky+ at their website http://www.pace.co.uk/paceproducts/product.asp?section=SA&product=166 - Enjoy...

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

I notice one of the Operating Systems listed that it runs on it WindowsCE - I hope the haven't....









------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## ChrisA

Yes I am satan too. I have one on order according to my confirmation order email they have 20 units coming in on the 8th September with 50 more at the end of the month. I will let you know what it is like! Like Gary and Automan I to am now short of money. By the way they mentioned that they have had over 400 enquiries about the unit. Though how many orders this will result in is any bodies guess.


----------



## mrtickle

Hopefully it will result in very few orders. Unlike TiVo's charge, Sky's 10 quid/month has no justification; the EPG is funded by the broadcasters and there are no telephone costs. Sky's business plan for the next few years relies on increasing the average spend per customer.


----------



## Matthew Finlayson

I think he was referring to the colour Pronto, rather than the Sky+.

The offer of a free RF base was just too much for me and I've ordered one now as well.


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## TivoUK

Automan.
My ADSL and Sky + install yesterday went fine, all worked straight away. However, I did not get that much time with either of them before I had to come back to work. I hate being the local guy to call when you have PC problems, and a neighbour was having problems installing Win98.

Anyway....

I did not get to really put the + box through its paces, setup some recordings while I am away for the rest of the week, but it appeared to be fine.

Have read that the box gets a new s\ware update from 1.17 to 1.20 after it is activated. Did that happen to you??


----------



## Automan

> Have read that the box gets a new s/ware update from 1.17 to 1.20 after it is activated. Did that happen to you?


Yes, my box is on 1.20c which installs / reboots your box with no warning! I think the remote control led was on while it did this, not 100% sure.

As for the box, It's not 100% It recorded things okay all day yesterday but did not record Voyager at 18:00 (just said to be recorded even at 18:30).

It then did not record The Simpsons at 19:00 so I just cycled the mains power.
Once it started to boot, it started to record the simpsons.

With this and the loss of audio on some movie channels I'm getting a new box which should be with me in under 2 days.

I must admit I'm not sure a new box will help but I shall try (most likely **** software).

Boxes also get *VERY HOT* compared with a TiVo and I understand the fan does not cut in till it's *REALLY VERY HOT.*

Last night however, Sky did correctly update all the changes in the EPG to cope with the program changes on both BBC, CHN4 & 5 Channels. Plus the change of movie on Sky Cinema 2 at 21:00.
However, They got the start time of Alien in error. EPG had 23:10 when it started at 23:20 so the end may be missing?

Also a program that was to record on Brighton Police was automatically removed form the job queue.

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-12-2001).]


----------



## Automan

Extra Info...
I emailed Pace with a couple of questions and the answer may be of interest...

*1. When should the cooling fan operate?*
The fan operates when the internal box temperature exceeds 48 degrees C (118f).

*2. The S-VHS does not seems to widescreen switch my Sony TV - Does the S-VHS output include widescreen switching data?*
There is no widescreen switching on the S-Video output at present, this may change in the future.

*3. My unit runs with a case temperature of 92f in a 68f ambient and I was wondering if this is okay.*
The box is specified to operate up to 40 degrees C.

Automan.


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## doubledrat

£695 for an effing remote control!







You must be joking. How can anyone justify that?


----------



## GaryM

My thoughts exactly.

Perhaps it doubles as a 25th century tricorder as well









I can only think that you guys cannot be married.....if I spent £700 on a remote I would be living on the street within minutes.
What's your secret


----------



## Richardr

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *Extra Info...
> I emailed Pace with a couple of questions and the answer may be of interest...
> 
> The fan operates when the internal box temperature exceeds 48 degrees C (118f).
> 
> The box is specified to operate up to 40 degrees C.
> *


Why does the fan not come in at 40 degrees?


----------



## Automan

> Why does the fan not come in at 40 degrees?


I assume even at a 40c ambient that it does not need cooling till it's internal guts get up to 48c

Does anyone know at what temperature TiVo's fan cut in?

Automan.


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## GarySargent

TiVo has different fan speeds depending on the temperature.

Dec 28 05:20:36 (none) fancontrol[56]: The current board temperature is 41 
Dec 28 05:20:36 (none) fancontrol[56]: Setting the fan speed to 9 
Dec 28 20:57:28 (none) fancontrol[56]: The current board temperature is 47 
Dec 28 20:57:28 (none) fancontrol[56]: Setting the fan speed to 15 
Feb 15 09:43:22 (none) fancontrol[56]: The current board temperature is 42 
Feb 15 09:43:22 (none) fancontrol[56]: Setting the fan speed to 10 
Feb 15 09:53:22 (none) fancontrol[56]: The current board temperature is 38 
Feb 15 09:53:22 (none) fancontrol[56]: Setting the fan speed to 0 
Feb 15 19:39:06 (none) fancontrol[56]: The current board temperature is 43 
Feb 15 19:39:06 (none) fancontrol[56]: Setting the fan speed to 11

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## Automan

Only one response, *Cool!*

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-12-2001).]


----------



## doubledrat

> Originally posted by GaryM:
> *My thoughts exactly.
> I can only think that you guys cannot be married.....if I spent £700 on a remote I would be living on the street within minutes.
> What's your secret
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Hehe. I must admit when I saw Gary's kit I thought "that guy can't be married







" I didn't want to say though









Not that I'm henpecked.

_yes? coming dear_

gotta go

[This message has been edited by doubledrat (edited 09-13-2001).]


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## GarySargent

I'm far too young to get married yet! I'm trying to buy every gadget before I get married (for obvious reasons







)

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## ChrisA

Oh dear the secrets out. I am single also, but unlike Gary I am to OLD to get married. And as I am going bald etc I won't have to worry about it either!! Bring on the gadgets.
Going to collect the SKY+ box from Curry's today, with an independant installer putting it in on Monday hopefully...
So Pronto 1MB, Pronto colour, TiVo with 160GB discs, SKY+ etc etc. Nearly as bad as Gary and Automan.


----------



## doubledrat

> Originally posted by ChrisA:
> *So Pronto 1MB, Pronto colour, TiVo with 160GB discs, SKY+ etc etc. Nearly as bad as Gary and Automan.*


wanna sell your pronto 1mb when you get your colour?









Bob


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## richard plumb

it surprised me how wife-friendly the mono pronto was. Mainly because she could then use the TV properly! The addition of channel logos to prevent having to remember 30 different channel numbers helped too.

But that was only £165 at the time. I don't think I'd risk £700 - at least not just yet.


----------



## ChrisA

Actually I was planning on using it upstairs to control the exisiting Panasonic digibox with the TiVo and Video and TV's, and use the newone downstairs with all the other stuff. I might just be persuaded to let it go if I received a good enough offer. It is a Marantz actually that comes with a base unit. As an aside I have just had an email from SKY regarding the failed install of my SKY+. They said they were sorry, and have confirmed that my credit card has been credited with the money! I did not think I would get any feedback at all, still it does not change the problem SKY has it just lets them know they have one. But they already new that anyway.


----------



## doubledrat

I found it was quite easy to "sell" the concept of a pronto -

me: "Want me to get rid of these 6 remotes for 1?" 
missus: "hooray"

(havn't told her how much the pronto is yet though







)

Bob


----------



## Guest

Just had SKY+ for a few days now and starting to wonder if I am going off my head. Help please.... 

The box is putting out a high pitched, but quiet, tone which is driving us all crazy. When you first walk into the room you dont notice it, but after a while you do and you continue to hear it. When the unit records you can also clearly hear the disk disk drive clunking away.. Has anyone else noticed this noise or is it just the unit I have, or are we all paranoid??

Thanks...


----------



## Automan

> Has anyone else noticed this noise or is it just the unit I have, or are we all paranoid??


My Sky+ box makes slightly less noise than my twin disc TiVo.

Sky+'s only moving part is it's hard disc (unless it get's very hot when the fan will cut in).

If you unplug your Sky+ from the mains does the noise whines down (like a jet engine stopping) and does the opposite when you plug it in, I suspect that you have a noisy hard disc.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Tonight with my trusty Sky+ box I pressed Select to playback a recording and it rebooted itself!
When I pressed Sky key (after the screen had flashed a few times) it said searching for listings and it was on chn 998.

No s/w update so I suppose it had a nervous breakdown.

I have also noted that against "The Simpsons" in the Sky+ Planner you don't get the copy to tape option.
I guess they have Macrovision on them?

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *I have also noted that against "The Simpsons" in the Sky+ Planner you don't get the copy to tape option.
> I guess they have Macrovision on them?*


I doubt it - how would people with just a VCR record them?

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## Automan

A short review of Sky+ can be found at http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=3765 and may be of interest....

P.S. The Stargate's at 06:00am have no series link!

*Perhaps this is one of the features they will add when the series ends!*

*New Colour Marantz Pronto Remote*
If you have just ordered the Philips module you may wish to see what you will missing at http://www.remotecentral.com/wn010904.htm

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-16-2001).]


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## Norm

Another question about Sky+.

If you record a Sky film, does it record the whole of the time slot including what can be half an hour of rubbish until the next film (like TiVo) or does it have the sense to know how long the the film should be and record only that plus padding?

Could be quite significant with the total recording time being only about 20 hours. (How easy it is to forget that my TiVo used to have a limit of 12 hours at best quality!)

------------------
Regards

Norman


----------



## ALanJay

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *A short review of Sky+ can be found at http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=3765 and may be of interest....
> 
> P.S. The Stargate's at 06:00am have no series link!
> 
> Perhaps this is one of the features they will add when the series ends!
> *


*

Just goes to show I should have checked the example I discussed with the Product manager, oh well that at least is the thory of how it should work when they get it all sorted out. There were comments that the BBC were only doing series links on prime time - it sounds like SKY are doing the same. This is a shame as these are the things that make it all work - on the other hand the average user probably won't care.

The fundamental think about SKY+ is that it seems to be aimed at "the man in the street" no the person wanting cutting edge technology.

For those of us that want that cutting edge technology SKY+ probable isn't the panacea we would like - but it might grow to be loved as a simple tool.

As I see it we have - Tivo a very clever piece of software let down by a dodgey programme guide or SKY+ a simple to use PVR with none of the "clever bits".



I still think SKY will sell a lot of SKY+ boxes and it will be very interesting to see if they deliver more functionality over the next few months which they have promissed.*


----------



## mrtickle

Indeed, like anything to do with Sky it's always interesting to see if they keep their promises. Often they do not.


----------



## Automan

Norm,
Just played back Double Jepardy from last night and it records the whole 2hrs 2min time slot.

Infact, the last episode of Father Ted to be shown last night said it would need 23% of the 40gig disc to record!
This is because the epg thought it was on from 02:30 ish to 07:00 (no closedows event in epg).

AlanJay,
I will be interested to see if Sky+ PP can have different series links for 1st run's and another for re-runs

e.g. StarGate SG1 & The Simpson's

It would also be cool if it copped better with program clashes....

My unit was set to record "The Fugitive" on E4 @ 19:00
A Series link for "The Simpsons" then put an entry to record "The Simpsons" episode @ 19:00 (but not the for the episode @ 18:30).

So what do you think would happen?
It recorded "The Simpson's" at 19:00 and the last half of "The Fugitive"!
It then indicated that if failed to record "The Simpsons" @ 19:30 which cancels the series link so no more episodes will be recorded.

Not Very Good!

Now to watch "Fatal Beauty" on BBC1 which TiVo thought started at 22:55 to 00:35

Sky+ indicated a start time of 23:05 and of course started recording at 23:03 and recorded for 103minutes

Which one will catch ALL the action?

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-16-2001).]


----------



## Guest

Hello,

I just made a nice big post about me having Sky+ and some nice in-depth comments about various things in comparison to the TiVo but I put my password in wrong and when I pressed back my post was gone.

So now I can't be bothered.

In short, my conclusion is that the Sky+ has a superior design quality (in terms of software) for the functions that it supports (ie. they work better) whereas TiVo has a superior implementation quality (ie. it doesn't crash every once in a while for no apparent reason).

Overall I can't say which is more reliable yet because I have only had Sky+ a couple of days. Only time will tell ...

Ross.


----------



## GarySargent

I hope you Sky+ owners are going to sign up for V2.5.5 beta when it arrives. The interface should be much slicker and it will be interesting to see how the Sky+ vs TiVo comparison changes.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## Automan

> I hope you Sky+ owners are going to sign up for V2.5.5 beta when it arrives. The interface should be much slicker and it will be interesting to see how the Sky+ vs TiVo comparison changes.


*Yes Please!*

And don't forget that Sky+ will have an extra 30/40 wonderful features before Xmas to compare it with.

Also I would not mind testing the new TiVo box out before it's launch later this year (should such a product exist?).

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-16-2001).]


----------



## GarySargent

I think any new box is pure speculation - there is no evidence to support this. Any new box will also (almost 100% likely) be the same hardware - with possibly a different size hard disc. This is the case in the US.

Hopefully if there is a new box they will wait until V2.5.5 is released to ship it thus getting fresh reviews in magazines.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## OzSat

Wandering thru the TiVo listings, I found at midnight on Friday 21/Saturday 22 September on MTV2 - is an hour of comedy videos.

As TiVo is already busy at this time I decided to find the entry on Sky+ and record it there - but Sky+ will not accept the (R) for this programme, but will on others around it and at the same time.

You can set a reminder but the (R) is still not accepted to amend this.

Anyone else seen this?

*Since my original posting - I have found that there is no synopsis for this programme. Perhaps Sky+ will not record such programmes?*

[This message has been edited by ozsat (edited 09-16-2001).]


----------



## Automan

ozsat,
Looks like another Sky+ bug! - Well spotted.

My unit also won't record "laugh track: 20 years of comedy"

I assume the system permits the gods on Mount Sky to prevent the recording of some programs (however, the record button is availble to press but nothing happens).

You could always ring those nice folks at Sky and spend 30 minutes trying to get them to understand.

And you can always be sure that "no one else has reported it"

This must be a similar glitch that effect "The Simpsons" where you don't get the copy to tape option.

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

The "programmes start at...." all have no synopsis and also don't record!


----------



## OzSat

Sky TS say they have had a couple of won't allow (R) to be used which they have put down to the programme name being too long.

This programme has 31 chars - I can set one OK with 36.

I have also asked them to explain where 'autotune' has gone as they insist it is still available.


----------



## pr1uk

reading the newsgroups people with Sky+ do seem to be having quite a few problems with recording ect

i am allowed to say good hehe
see it is not just TiVo that as teething problems


Peter


----------



## ALanJay

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *AlanJay,
> I will be interested to see if Sky+ PP can have different series links for 1st run's and another for re-runs
> 
> e.g. StarGate SG1 & The Simpson's
> 
> It would also be cool if it copped better with program clashes....
> *


Hi,

Fisrtly this is EXACTLY the question I asked and was told that it is possible - BUT requires the EPG guide data to be correct. Obviously SKY need to do some work themselves along with persuading the other channels to sort things out.

The recording system is set from what is in the EPG data (not the NOW and NEXT banner data) and the settings on recording are an extra minute beginning and end - if there is a clash at the end the new programme will miss the FIRST minute of the next programme.

This method was decided after extensive market research - the wife of a team member wasn't too happy at missing the cliff hanging end of an episode of ER.

(PS I havn't tested this)

[Automan write:
I assume the system permits the gods on Mount Sky to prevent the recording of some programs (however, the record button is availble to press but nothing happens).]

The impression I get is that it uses the EPG data and timings so even though there is NOW and NEXT data if it isn't included in the EPG itself it won't work. This is the reason that RADIO stations can't be recorded - ther eis nothing in the EPG even though all the data is transmitted in the NOW/NEXT stream in the radio transmission.

Overall it doesn't surprise me that there are bugs - SKY+ has been tested by people but that is nothing like the hammering it will get with people like us rumaging around the insides 

As an aside I mentioned to the Product Manager (who used to have a Tivo - and rather missed the idea of 2.5.5) about the fact that my Tivo had rather more that the default 40Gb and he said that SKY didn't have anything against this type of thing and over time disk sizes would enevitably increase but that he felt that there would be a point where the copyright holders would complain that they were allowing long term digital archiving of programme material which is a big no no to the industry.

I wonder what sort of file system it uses 

[Automan wrote:
And don't forget that Sky+ will have an extra 30/40 wonderful features before Xmas to compare it with.]

I think that is probably wishful thinking - if they live up to their pitch then there will be some more functions before the end of the year but I doubt that many (uless they count them like channels) but we can live in hope.


----------



## Automan

Alan,
Thanks for all the info... Cool.

On the PP front my box now seems to have two series links for "The Simpson's" - one entry in for tonites rerun at 19:00 and another entry for next Sunday's 18:00 slot so I assume it can tell them apart (but no real indication to the users that one's re-runs and the others new episodes).

Back on the sat 8th Sky told me I could have a new box because of my loss of audio on some movie channels 310 & 312 and it's variuos other quirks.

They said I would get a call on Sunday 9th from the service company as it's done by another company.

They telephoned Wednesday and said they would order a box which takes 24hrs and they would then call to install (total 48hr job).

Last night playback of recordings were going jerky / getting stuck (like poor sat reception) which is begining to p*ss me off (sometimes it's fine for days, maybe heat?).

Thus I telephoned the Applicance Service company this morning and they now say they have no Sky+ boxes and no date when they are expected to turn up!

I assume the box failure rate is greater than anticipated.

Plus I suspect the problems are software / poor hardware design so swapping boxes most likely won't help.

Automan.


----------



## Osy

Having had SkyPlus for nearly two weeks, and not finding any pictures of the insides, I decided to lift the lid on mine. I also experimented with the drive a little.
Pictures and other info at:
http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao

Let me know what you think!

Paul 'Osy' Osborn


----------



## GarySargent

Most cool - but looks like I might loose that £10 bet I had with someone









Same Quantum drives as UK TiVo's.

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk

[This message has been edited by GarySargent (edited 09-17-2001).]


----------



## Automan

Paul 'Osy' Osborn,
Cool pictures and it sounds like a Sky+ boxes disc can be replaced with a new larger one with minimal no effort.

I also wonder how it copes with the 4Gb file limit of FAT32 or if it breaks the recording up into several 4Gb chunks.

I'm surprised the hd is at the front left. The hottest spot seems to be rear right. I assume this is the crap pace psu giving off mega heat. Just think if each box wasted 10watts less power x 5 million boxes we could save the world!

Paul,
I assume your box has been working okay?

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-17-2001).]


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## Osy

Automan,

I have my box on the open top shelf of a hi-fi rack (black, with black components, and a silver sky box







). My fan seems to never operate, and the only hotspot I found, was the drive, which was almost too hot to hold. But I think that's pretty typical for drives these days.
The only spare drive I had was a Fujitsu 40Gb, I hope to try 100Gb soon to find out what happens.

My SkyPlus box is still working fine, with its original drive. Too many recordings on it just now to switch permenantly just now.

Paul 'Osy' Osborn


----------



## Yorkshirelad6

> Originally posted by Osy:
> *
> My SkyPlus box is still working fine, with its original drive. Too many recordings on it just now to switch permenantly just now.
> *


Couldn't you just drop the Sky+ drive and your larger drive into a PC and use something like Norton Ghost to transfer it across? - this way you'd keep everything already recorded, and have more space to record more - at least in theory 

YorkshireLad6


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## Automan

Paul,
My box is under my TV because it's silver! It has got long enough sat cables to put with my hi-fi but like your kit it's all black!

However, I've ordered a 240v fan from maplins to mount at the back of my tv cabinet and assuming it's quiet I may try this.

On the disc front I was also wondering if the box worries about file fragmentation (along with the 4gb file limit of fat32).

*You may also be in the hall of records with the first 50hr broadcast quality Sky+ Box!*

Automan.


----------



## Osy

YorkshireLad6,

I've not heard of Ghost, will look into it. Sky+ seems extremely forgiving in changing disks, but copying data between them may be a tricky. The large file containing the recorded program seems to be unreadable (at least under Win2k). I suspect it may have some deliberate file system bugs to make this harder. I'll let Linux take a look and see what it makes of it.

Automan,

It will certainly be interesting to try increasing the disk. I expect it will either work perfectly, or be hard coded in FLASH to be 40Gb. Unlike Tivo, quoting how many hours it gives is going to be a problem. Large discs could take a long time to fill, and its all VBR anyway. Maybe for Sky+ we should stick to drive sizes.


----------



## Yorkshirelad6

> Originally posted by Osy:
> *YorkshireLad6,
> 
> I've not heard of Ghost, will look into it.*


Norton Ghost makes one-to-one disk images and can be used to replicate systems - useful because copied system disks are bootable as before. If you copy from source to a larger disk or partition it simply leaves more space on the end

YorkshireLad6


----------



## bignoise

> Originally posted by ozsat:
> *The "programmes start at...." all have no synopsis and also don't record!*


Of course it doesn't, it's not a programme! (It's only on "now" when the channel is off the air, so there'd be nothing to record anyway.)


----------



## ALanJay

If the file system is FAT32; then you need to create a new disk with a single partition on the whole disk and copy the files across. A copy with a disk copyier won't increase the partition.

(I think)

It certainly makes from some interesting excercises....


----------



## Osy

> Originally posted by ALanJay:
> *If the file system is FAT32; then you need to create a new disk with a single partition on the whole disk and copy the files across. A copy with a disk copyier won't increase the partition.
> 
> *


I agree. Also, since I haven't managed to read the large video files I cannot copy them. However if we can solve that, then transferring recordings may be possible. I feel more feasible would be to move future recordings, since those seem to be stored in files that are easily accessed.
Of course if the files contain any low level sectors references to other files then we would have a problem (doesn't look likely).

Paul


----------



## OzSat

> Originally posted by bignoise:
> * Of course it doesn't, it's not a programme! (It's only on "now" when the channel is off the air, so there'd be nothing to record anyway.)*


That's my point - it looks as if this could be the trigger to stop it recording!


----------



## Automan

20hrs / 40hrs / 50hrs - Beat This!










Of course you can't!

Three quarters of the way through Andromeda my box had another nervous breakdown and decided no signal...

I think maybe my second tuner is sick?

Automan.


----------



## earthling

> Originally posted by ChrisA:
> *This point was mentioned earlier but is CRITICAL to getting your SKY+ Box. If the dish is on the chimney & it is single brick ALL standard installers would have to drill a 20mm hole in the thing for health and saftey codes, or as in my case and many others get a trained hight's team with the correct equipment to perform the install.*


Howdy brave Sky+ user. Can I ask for clarification on this. I currently have standard Sky (SkyMinus?) and have the dish on the chimney with the standard LNB and single cable running to the STB.

If I want Sky+ (which right now I don't - but maybe when it can record 2 channels at once) will I have to get the dish moved? If so, why? I don't quite understand. The dish is already fixed securely to the chimney, and if all they do is fit a new dual LNB, why is there a need for any drilling into the chimney?

Also, they didn't charge me extra for putting it on the chimney as the chimney is accessible through a skylight and sits on a flat part of the roof metres away from the edge or any danger.

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

------------------
Thanks in advance.

Chris


----------



## Automan

Chris,
A real Sky engineer won't work on a dish on a single brick chimney. He has to work on it to fit the new quad lnb and cable run. Some independant installation engineers may if you grease their palms.

However, if they can gain safe access I expect they will update your exisiting dish.

They will free of charge install a new dish in a less hazadous location (if you have a suitable wall with clear line of site to 28.2).

You can record two things at once using your TiVo & Sky+

Sky+ can only record one thing at a time (if your lucky!) but may be able to record two soon!

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-17-2001).]


----------



## iankb

> Originally posted by ALanJay:
> *If the file system is FAT32; then you need to create a new disk with a single partition on the whole disk and copy the files across. A copy with a disk copyier won't increase the partition.
> *


PartitionMagic from PowerQuest allows you to change the size of your partitions. They also have a product called DriveCopy which will copy partitions. The second product may allow you to copy to partitions of different sizes - the marketing blurb isn't obvious.

Ian.


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## Automan

News at Last - A New Sky+ Box will be delivered this Thursday!









All I have to do now is hope it fixes all / most of the problems!

P.S.
My box at the moment has four minidiscs under it (to increase air flow) and a 12" table fan blowing on it.
It's external cabinet is now at room temperature.

Automan.


----------



## Yorkshirelad6

> Originally posted by ALanJay:
> *If the file system is FAT32; then you need to create a new disk with a single partition on the whole disk and copy the files across. A copy with a disk copyier won't increase the partition.
> *


Norton Ghost allows Disk-Disk, Partition-partition, Disk-Partition and Partition-Disk copies, on a bit for bit basis. Files themsleves are not read, only data, so there is no concern for format, hidden files, etc., etc. As long as there is less data in source as in the destination it intelligently pads out free space to the size of the destination.

YorkshireLad6


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## Osy

YorkshireLad6,

Sound like you idea might work for transfering the files to a new disk, but at the moment I'm concentrating on trying to fit a larger disk. I tried a 100Gb disk last night. Sky+ formatted it to full size, and put on its config files. Recording seemed to work, but access to Sky+ Planner was extremely slow, and the one time I tried to play back a recording, it reset. I tried the system reset menu option, and after 10 minutes that had not completed, so it looks like the disk may have just been too big.
I've added my experiences to my site.

Paul Osborn http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao


----------



## Yorkshirelad6

> Originally posted by Osy:
> *
> Sound like you idea might work for transfering the files to a new disk, but at the moment I'm concentrating on trying to fit a larger disk. *


Could you not simply:

1. Open a PC
2. Add the disk from the Sky+ and the new 100Gb disk to the PC (assumes at least 2 IDE interfaces and power connectors free, and that disks are correctly master/slave configured - maybe even remove CD temporarilly to facilitate this)
3. Copy Sky+ disk contents to new larger disk (e.g. using Ghost)
4. Reinstall larger disk into Sky+

???


----------



## Automan

Paul,
My box has twice reset itself when pressing select to view a recording (the last press of select before playback starts) and that's with it's standard disc!.

Also, three times all the menu's have started to go slow - only solution cycle power.

Perhaps your box is just getting old and grumpy?

Automan.


----------



## BrianHughes

> Originally posted by iankb:
> * PartitionMagic from PowerQuest allows you to change the size of your partitions. They also have a product called DriveCopy which will copy partitions. The second product may allow you to copy to partitions of different sizes - the marketing blurb isn't obvious.
> 
> Ian.*


Drive copy allows you to copy from one disk to another while resizing the partition. I have used it to do simple hard disk upgrades in the past.


----------



## Osy

> Originally posted by Yorkshirelad6:
> * Could you not simply:
> 
> 1. Open a PC
> 2. Add the disk from the Sky+ and the new 100Gb disk to the PC (assumes at least 2 IDE interfaces and power connectors free, and that disks are correctly master/slave configured - maybe even remove CD temporarilly to facilitate this)
> 3. Copy Sky+ disk contents to new larger disk (e.g. using Ghost)
> 4. Reinstall larger disk into Sky+
> 
> ???*


This is not where the problem with a disk upgrade seems to lie. If you fit a blank disc into Sky+, it partitions it and sets up all the files it needs to operate. However, in my experience it seems to struggle to then use a 100Gb disk. Possibly some internal data structure cannot cope with such a large disk. If I can find one (or anyone else wants to try it), then I would like to see if a 50Gb drive works.
Your suggestion has merit once we want to copy existing recordings onto the larger disk, but I want to see it working first.

Paul Osborn
Inside SkyPlus: http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao


----------



## ChrisA

Automan & Earthling!

SKY+ fitted at last!! As you all know my dish is on the Chimney however I had no problem finding an independant installer who would carry out the work. BUT be prepared to spend some more money. My install cost £110 and included the rejigging of my main phone number to allow for the existing Panasonic box to be located in the bedroom. Currently undertaking a mix and match of all the possible combinations of wiring. Ok onto a TiVo thing. My modified TiVo 160GB would record for exactly 20 mins and either freeze or reboot, Origonally the Panasonic box was sat ontop of the TiVo so the top of the TiVo was getting VERY hot with the drives being located below the Panasonic. I am having more luck now the TiVo is located above the SKY+ box as the top of the TiVo is much cooler. So this "HEAT" thing may be critical. I only hope that my SKY+ box does not overheat now.


----------



## Yorkshirelad6

> Originally posted by Osy:
> * This is not where the problem with a disk upgrade seems to lie. If you fit a blank disc into Sky+, it partitions it and sets up all the files it needs to operate. However, in my experience it seems to struggle to then use a 100Gb disk. Possibly some internal data structure cannot cope with such a large disk. If I can find one (or anyone else wants to try it), then I would like to see if a 50Gb drive works.
> Your suggestion has merit once we want to copy existing recordings onto the larger disk, but I want to see it working first.
> *


I think one of us is not understanding the other! - my point is that if you can copy the existing, current structures and files to a new,larger disk (partition), then you can simply use that directly with enlarged storage space... No need for Sky+ to recreate anything. It just needs to take advantage of the enlarged space it finds... This assumes, of course, that it works out remaining capacity from remaining free space on the disk. Enlarged free space=additional capacity!

Cheers!

YorkshireLad6


----------



## ALanJay

Someone mentionded copying the files to a PC - one thing to remember that the MPEG data streams still have the SKY encryption system embedded so to replay you need a SKY box and card.

It certainly sounds from what OSY says that the disks are automatically utilised the only question is if there are issues that havn't been though about with larger disks that may mean things don't work as expected.

Certainly down the road it wouldn't be surprising if SKY offered machines with larger disks after all it won't be long before 40Gb drives become hard to find. 

YorkshireLad - the point that OSY was making is that the SKY+ box will work if you put a new drive in - it automatically configures everything from the embeeded OS.

The only reason to want to do a disk copy would be if you wanted to keep the current programmes.

[This message has been edited by ALanJay (edited 09-18-2001).]


----------



## Yorkshirelad6

> Originally posted by ALanJay:
> *YorkshireLad - the point that OSY was making is that the SKY+ box will work if you put a new drive in - it automatically configures everything from the embeeded OS.
> *


My understanding was that this was *almost* working, but not quite, maybe because something is lacking when it tries to "rebuild", hence the idea to simply copy a working system to a larger space....

Sorry to harp on 

YorkshireLad6


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## OzSat

Setting any BBC ONE programme to record this evening, is producing a blank channel name in the record list.


----------



## TivoUK

I am going away (all being well) for nearly 3 weeks this Sunday.

Had setup the Tivo / OnD box with loads of season passes for the BBC / ITV / Chn 4 / Chn 5 shows I wanted. Was going to go the Sky + box on Friday with the Sky 1 shows I wanted.

If the thing cannot be trusted to do those...groan...


----------



## Osy

Busy day today, so can't stop long. Have updated my site with news of my experiments with a 60Gb drive. Very nearly works.

------------------
Paul Osborn
Inside SkyPlus: http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao

[This message has been edited by Osy (edited 09-19-2001).]


----------



## TivoUK

Cannot get to your site, tells me I am forbidden


----------



## Osy

Now open to all







, sorry about that.

------------------
Paul Osborn
Inside SkyPlus: http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao


----------



## Guest

Yes I am forbidden too.

Automan, how long did you have your Sky+ before it started playing up ??

I think maybe it was sick as I have had mine for 5 days now (no shortage of record and playback activity let me tell you) but there has not been a single glitch. I have not power cycled it at any point.

Even so, if it does need a power-cycle every week or so to keep it in check then there are no complaints from me. Just so long as it records the whole programme!

Keeping the Sky boxes cool is something which I have discovered with my last digibox. I would say the same applies for the new one. Don't forget that if it overheats just once it may become permanently damaged. Mine has full airflow on all sides except the bottom and a good half-metre on top for the heat to escape. Don't know if that helps any.

Ross.


----------



## Automan

Ross,
For the last 30hrs or so my Sky+ box has had a 12" fan blowing on it with four minidiscs under it's feet to increase airflow under the box.
This morning it's case temperature was 67.5f rather than 98f with no external cooling.
And I must admit it's been okay!
I have had it just sitting on a shelf under my TV with both front and rear covers removed (of the cabinet), 8" clearance above and about 3/4" at either side and in that enviroment it's played up.

I was just wondering if my unit is extra sensitive to heat or maybe it was designed *very poorly*?

And yes, I think it was okay when it was new for a few days (I think).

Automan.


----------



## Guest

Designed very poorly is probably unfortunately correct.

Wonder how long it will be until we see some new models ?
Yes, I will probably buy one.

I don't have a lot of money. I just spend it anyway









Ross.


----------



## Automan

Just got home from work and my Sky+ still seems to be okay with it's 12" fan cooling unit.
I did just note that in the PP was a job with no title and an odd date that it said would require 9084% to record!
However, after starting my PC to do a screen capture, when I went back the entry had gone









Just watching "The Equaliser" which is the first program I've found on Granda Plus with a series link









Automan.
P.S. When you order Sky+ order a fridge to put it in!

On the question of hard disc upgrades for Sky+ perhaps the disc format is a variant on fat32 (to break the 4Gb file barrier)?


----------



## OzSat

My Sky+ box only feels slightly warm - and not as warm as other stb's I have.


----------



## Automan

I spoke to soon!
It's playing up again, megapixalation on playback









*BAD SKY+*

Automan.


----------



## JamesM

> Originally posted by GarySargent:
> *Most cool - but looks like I might loose that £10 bet I had with someone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


I was wondering if you had remembered! Well, let's see if he manages to get the upgrade completed with no problems before we settle, shall we?

If we do agree that the bet is won, then I will donate the £10 to the NY disaster fund, and match it with the same amount.


----------



## jont

Hoping to get my Sky+ today from Heathrow Dixons (tax free !!) and will look to upgrade the disk sometime when it doesn't break ...

As part of my VAT free savings on the box I'll donate a tenner to the NY fund aswell...


----------



## Osy

> Originally posted by JamesM:
> *
> If we do agree that the bet is won, then I will donate the £10 to the NY disaster fund, and match it with the same amount.*


So much pressure! I'll do the best I can.
Using a separate power supply for the IBM 7200RPM 60Gb drive mentioned on my site revealed that it has to be spun up around 10 seconds before the Sky box is powered. In a PC it could take that long to get through the BIOS, but Sky seem to want the drive very early in the startup process. I'll have to try a 5000RPM drive.
I'm hopeful that the upgrade will work since my Fujitsu 40Gb drive works very well. Of course enlarging the drive messes up the free space percentage, but I hope you'll let me off that









------------------
Paul Osborn
Inside SkyPlus: http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao


----------



## ChrisA

Automan:

I have left it a couple of days before tempting fate. However my SKY+ box actually runs COOLER than my old Panasonic STB. The area around the power supply is warm but not so hot as to cause concern. It sounds as though you may well have a sick unit. Oh well now I have tempted fate and my box will just pack in.


----------



## Automan

Chrisa,
A new box has just been installed (I Think).
So far it's okay but reports a different model number.

Old Box Was Model 5.5.0
replacement Model 4.8.2
Old operating system 1.302K
replacement o/s 1.30410
Old EPG s/w SKY+ 1.20.c
replacement SKY+ 1.14.e 

I assume the EPG s/w will update any minute and the box will reboot but I thought the other factors were constant?

If so, how many Sky+ models actually exist and what did they change?

Automan.


----------



## Automan

I just forced my new Sky+ box to do a software update (same method as old ones - apply power while holding backup button till all four main led's come on).

Anyway, the the update changes all the details to match my first box...

I ask myself, should a s/w update change a model number?

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

> Originally posted by Automan:
> I just forced my new Sky+ box to do a software update (same method as old ones - apply power while holding backup button till all four main led's come on).
> 
> Anyway, the the update changes all the details to match my first box...
> 
> I ask myself, should a s/w update change a model number?


*Sky s/w updates usually change the model number.

You should not force s/w updates. Until a version is fully acceptable they usually transmit two versions.

The force update will often reload the previous version - in case the current version causes too many problems.

The best way to update you box is to switch it off after it has had several hours to download a version.

Don't keep doing this though as you may end up killing the box.*


----------



## Automan

ozsat,
I only forced it because being well thought out, Sky+ will reboot to install an upgrade while it's recording (just like TiVo does).

Also it seems everyone who has a Sky+ is on EPG 1.20.c

Automan.


----------



## TheBear

An added benefit is that Sky+ decodes Dolby Digital surround sound:
http://www.dolby.com/press/wb.pr.0109.Sky.html


----------



## Guest

Well, having tempted fate also, it seems my Sky+ box finally decided to reset itself for no apparent reason.

Luckilly it wasn't recording anything at the time.

My EPG version is 1.20.c and was before so I don't know what it decided to reset for.

Automan, I think there must be something wrong with your LNB or something (have you got the new box yet ?). All the recordings I have made thus far have been fine.


----------



## Guest

Okay, ignore my question about the new box, somehow I managed to not see your post about the new box. Thought something seemed a bit odd!


----------



## doubledrat

> Originally posted by TheBear:
> *An added benefit is that Sky+ decodes Dolby Digital surround sound:
> http://www.dolby.com/press/wb.pr.0109.Sky.html *


Just an aside, if you want to watch films in 5.1, instead of spending 2.99 on a $ky boxoffice film, rent the dvd from www.dvdoptions.com for 2.99 instead. That way you can watch it as many times as you like for a whole week, and it's got the extras, and it'll be in widescreen, and you'll get to see it months before it's available on $ky.

Bob


----------



## OzSat

> Originally posted by Automan:
> 
> I only forced it because being well thought out, Sky+ will reboot to install an upgrade while it's recording (just like TiVo does).
> 
> Also it seems everyone who has a Sky+ is on EPG 1.20.c


*The Sky re-boot is nothing more than a switch to stand-by.

The box will reboot itslef if it thinks it has a serious problem - EPG crash etc.

To this to upgrade:

Leave it alone all night.
In morning switch off at mains for 1 minute
Switch back on and wait two minutes.*


----------



## Guest

Why do you have to write everything in *bold* ?!

It hurts my eyes !


----------



## jont

> Originally posted by TheBear:
> *An added benefit is that Sky+ decodes Dolby Digital surround sound:
> http://www.dolby.com/press/wb.pr.0109.Sky.html *


----------



## jont

Oops - sorry hit the return key too soon !!!

Yes Sky+ will decode 5.1 - when there is any 5.1 transmitted material ... AFAIK at the moment you will get a digital stereo signal out of which will fall an analogue Dolby Pro-Logic soundtrack and no more ...

rgds

Jon


----------



## mrtickle

There seems to be some confusion about the term "decode" wrt dolby digital and Sky+. If the Sky+ box has a built-in DD decoder, that would mean it would also have 6 phono outputs to carry the decoded left, right, centre, rear left, rear right and subwoofer channels. Does it have these outputs?

My DVD player *does* have a built-in DD decoder, but I don't use it - I'd need 6 cables from DVD player to amp. I use the digital output instead and pass the signal to my amp to do the decoding there.

I think some of these journalists aren't checking their facts. I think that the Sky+ can pass the DD signal out of its optical port but I doubt very much that it has an alternative built-in DD decoder which would be used by very few people for very few peogrammes.


----------



## Automan

My new box has been making recordings / in operation now for over 30hrs - So far so good









It's even behaved so far in fast forward mode!

Re LNB problems, the feed from my old dish is still behind my TV and using it to feed my old Sky+ box (and swapping the feeds about) never helped the problem.

As ozsat says, I suspect the reboot is when the epg or etc gets it's "nickers in a twist". I assume the unit has a watchdog timer and if not reset it makes the box reboot?

It's early days for Sky+ Box #2....

Automan.


----------



## Automan

I could be taking a risk posting this but my new Sky+ box is still working okay









All recordings so far okay, no starts or ends chopped off and no sticking in fast forward.
Some audio clicks from Filmfour+1 (4 in six hours of playback)and 4 seconds of fastforward (all by itself) in Willow yesterday afternoon. Otherwise 100%

The unit is located in the exact enviroment as my old one.

Automan.


----------



## stephen93

As I see it Sky+ cannot record ITV yet, any ideas when Sky are adding ITV to their EPG & will we get ITV1,ITV2 & ITV Sport, anyone know?. thought about getting Sky+ but I'm happy with TiVo even though my digibox went into standby last week whilst I was on holiday so half my programs weren't recorded, it hadn't switch off for weeks thought they'd fixed the fault, obviously they haven't.

thanks Steve


----------



## Richardr

ITV will be on Sky by the end of the year, most likely date being canvassed at the moment is toward the end of November.

However, as they have not yet negotiated a price to use Sky's conditional access software, it is not yet clear in what form their appearance on Sky will be, and if you are waiting for ITV before buying Sky+, I suggest you wait for that to be determined. Some of the wild suggestions being suggested may not be recordable by Sky+.


----------



## bignoise

> Originally posted by Richardr:
> *Some of the wild suggestions being suggested may not be recordable by Sky+.*


It's extremely unlikely that ITV won't have a proper channel number and EPG data, though, in which case the Sky+ box should have no problems.


----------



## mrtickle

One of the so-called "solutions" being talked about is a Music Choice-style interface on 103, with the real channels *not* being accessible by EPG numbers. This means ITV wouldn't be recordable by TiVo, Sky+ or even just Sky with the Personal Planner - in the same way that Music Choice channels can no longer be recorded.

I hope they aren't stupid enough to do it, but they've done it before. This is apparently "progress" - along with "press red" icons wrecking all recordings on E4, Sky News and Sky One just because you weren't there at the time to press "backup" and remove the icon.


----------



## Automan

Doh!
Got home from work today, turned on TV & Amp. Normal Sky Picture as per normal...
Pressed "TV Guide" & 0 to get to the Sky+ Planner and it said

South Park Recorded
Andromeda Recorded
Project U.F.O. FAILED
Fanatasy Island FAILED
The Twilight Zone FAILED
The Fall Guy FAILED
Baywatch FAILED
Airwolf FAILED

Not quite what I wanted!
All the failed items indicated No Signal.
I them checked the system page and both LNB's indicated good readings.

I then tried to play one of the succesful recordings which was okay. I then went to change sat channel which resulted in the banner with a plain blue background. All menus okay but no picture!

Only option left - yes, unplug the power!
All seems okay again good old *Sky -*









P.S.
I don't normally record this much a day









Automan.


----------



## OzSat

What I find is a real pain is having to fast forward as x12 just to check if it has recorded the end of a programme.

x12 is actually very slow which means it takes 10 minutes to get to the end of a 2hour record.

TiVo has an instant skip to end!


----------



## topbanana

Actually that's a very good point .. if the Sky signal is stored raw, it's likely that an amount of unencrypting is necessary to find the relevant control elements in the MPEG stream and determine how far though the stream to skip between each frame. I wonder if this 12x represents a limitation on how quickly the stream can unencrypted by the Sky+ harware?

------------------
Top Banana

[This message has been edited by topbanana (edited 09-25-2001).]


----------



## Automan

More "Fast Forward" speeds are one of the promised features for a future upgrade.

A "Jump To End" would also be cool as mentioned to check you have the full program. Also slight rewind, after fast forward would also help (like TiVo does).

Today my box recorded everything okay. Perhaps bad epg data or the fact I used some of the interactive stuff upset it!

P.S. My local Dixon's to where I work now have a fully working Sky+ system on display plus the new Philips DVD recorder complete with media that gives you 60 min at max quality! (4.7Gb capacity)

No TiVo of course on display anywhere!

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Follow Up...
One of the things I set my Sky+ to record today was the movie Topedo Run on 104

However, this was cancelled and they put on the movie "The Bridal Path".

Only one thing, Sky+ recorded this and it's what it said it recorded.

I set it yesterday to record Topedo Run. I understood if the program was cancelled, more than 6 hours early or late that the event was cancelled?

Also, the movie title in the EPG was all in uppercase.

*Interesting:*
TiVo's EPG correctly indicated the change of movie and yet Sky's "Live" guide was still in error later last night when I booked the recording.

Automan.


----------



## Guest

A question for those of you with both Sky+ and TiVo.

How do you use your TiVo now you've got Sky+?

I know I'll buy Sky+ at some stage, but I'm considering a TiVo at the moment. (Sky+ seems too flaky yet) I want to ensure the TiVo is still a useful addition to the the entertainment set-up when Sky+ is added.

I Know the TiVo can now control a Sky+ unit but why would you go that route rather than through Sky+ directly?

Thanks in advance for your enlightenment.


----------



## bignoise

> Originally posted by mrtickle:
> *One of the so-called "solutions" being talked about is a Music Choice-style interface on 103, with the real channels *not* being accessible by EPG numbers. This means ITV wouldn't be recordable by TiVo, Sky+ or even just Sky with the Personal Planner - in the same way that Music Choice channels can no longer be recorded.*


No. No chance at all. This just will not happen.

For the moment, expect ITV to appear on a range of channel numbers (widely thought to be 831-847), in the EPG, and in the clear, plus some suitable barker channel on channel 103.

If/when ITV finally make a deal with Sky for proper conditional access and postcode based regionalisation, then expect your local region on channel 103.

Will TiVo or Sky+ have any difficulty with any of these arrangements? None whatsoever.

It's not something you have to worry about too much.


----------



## Automan

> It's not something you have to worry about too much.


I can live without ITV - Have done for years









If they want to be tucked away in the 800's it's their funeral.

Or if you have to add channels it their cremation!

Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

bignoise&gt; I agree that it's fine if they are in the clear in the 800s. 

I was talking about the possibility if them only being available via an interactive travesty. It would be dumb but it's being mooted just as the other better solutions are being mooted.


----------



## iankb

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *Also slight rewind, after fast forward would also help (like TiVo does).*


I seem to remember that TiVo took out a lot of patents related to PVR technology. I wonder whether some of TiVo's best features may fall under the umbrella of patentable features. I doubt that Sky would want to pay the license fees for some of the less essential features.

Just a (rather worrying) thought.

Ian.


----------



## Automan

Ian,
They could always describe slight rewind after fast forward as a software bug rather than a designed feature









P.S.
My Sky+ box is still working!

Automan.


----------



## doubledrat

I think as part of the TiVo setup, it should give you a reaction test. That way, the amount of rewind will be perfect. Of course then you'd have to log in when you swap remotes with the wife, so it would know who's reactions it was pandering to.

Bob
PS this is a joke in case you hadn't realised


----------



## Matthew Finlayson

I think it might need to be a bit variable than that. An attached breathalyser so that it will know when I'm trying to watch TV after I've got back from the pub and compensate for my reflexes might be needed as well.


----------



## mrtickle

doubledrat &gt; some of the best ideas come from flippant remarks! I actually really like that idea.


----------



## Automan

Anyway, my second shiny Sky+ box is now playing up









Just played back a movie, no probs. Then went to play Fantasy Island from chn 130 and perfect picture but no sound!

Back to live TV, okay. But when I tried chn130 no sound!

If you recall my last box used to loose sound on 310 & 312

Having surfed all the main channels my one has lost sound on 109,130,311,510 (checked 101-700)

*And it will now only playback recordings with sound that were not recorded on those channels e.g. Airwolf from 124 or The Simpsons*

I also kept one recoding of a movie which I have watched end to end but this now has no sound and could have been recorded on 311.

Thus when the fault occurs it seems to also prevent healthy recordings playing back (some link to subscrition checking or change of transponders?)

I shall now pull the mains plug...

As I suspected, all okay again! recordings without sound now have sound and sound on all channels!

What do you think of that for symptons of a fault / bug?

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

It sounds to me as if it is not the box that is the problem - but the signal.

I have never had such problems on my Sky+ box, but have had similar problems with audio etc. on my Digibox.

This has been during times when my dish was setup wrond by the Sky installer, and during severe rain.

Where you are located should not be a problem with dish size - but the alignment could be an issue.

What signal strength/quality does you receiver show? Where you are I would expect it to be almost full on both.


----------



## Automan

I get about 75% signal strength and 90% signal quality and no mpeg blocks.

Also when it 'plays up' items recorded okay with sound now playback without sound that were recorded on the effected channel numbers.

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

Do you mean that a programme played back OK - but now has no sound?


----------



## Automan

Yes!
The fault when it occurs will make a healthy recording playback with no sound if it was recorded on a channel that now has no sound in livetv mode (chn 109,130,311or510).
Recordings made on channels that still have sound in livetv mode playback okay.

The picture is always perfect but not even a crackle from the audio (on the effected channels).

Normal operation can be restored after the power has been cycled...

It's A VERY CONFUSING FAULT! But Very Interesting....

I have emailed Pace Technical! - Will I get a response?

Automan.


----------



## Guest

Automan, I have now experienced the "NO SIGNAL" failure.

It seems that once a failed recording occurs the whole box gets confused. I was looking at the descriptions of some programmes in my sky+ planner and it was giving me the descriptions of completely different ones !

It wouldn't function properly at all, it wouldn't play any of the recorded programmes and it wouldn't start recording anything new, so I pulled the plug. All working fine again now.

Unforunately all of the bugs in sky+ seem to be of a cascade nature, ie. once they occur everything screwes up until you reset the box.

Ross.


----------



## BrianHughes

That sounds like the difference between Linux and Windows to me.


----------



## ChrisA

OK I have had the "No Signal" problem as well! Same procedure to sort it out. I have not had the "no sound" problem Automan is getting BUT I have not tried recordings on his problem channels. Might give it a go to see if I get the same result, just to tempt fate.


----------



## Automan

Welcome all the the Sky+ *No Signal* club!
And I'm sure it's only a matter of time till you can join the *No Sound* club









Automan.


----------



## Marshy

<flippant>
Personally. I'm quite glad to be in the *No Sky+* club, judging by this thread...
</flippant>


----------



## Guest

Think i've found another Sky+ bug.

Failed recordings = lost disc space

Noticed i had 64% disc space left, but only had approx 3 hrs recordings. I went through each program, brought up the program info and noted the 'used' space (bottom right). It came to 12%, 12% + 64%= 76%!. Seem to have lost 24% somewhere, only thing i can think of is failed recordings still taking up space.

I didn't have any future recordings set or season links, so the lost space isn't put aside for future recordings.

Anyone else noticed this?


----------



## Automan

Reeves29,
Have you tried cycling the mains power?
I've noticed that after this things change in the Sky+ Planner menu (things appear / dissapear)!

If that's does not work you could also risk the "Housekeeping" option which deletes every recording from the Sky+ Planner.

I have noticed three other problems with Sky+

1st One is *BAD*
During the week I marked both Dr Who's (Sat & Sun) to be recorded.
Yesterday's recorded okay.
When I was going to bed last night I noted the entry for today's Dr Who was gone. I thought, human error, maybe I looked at it on TiVo. Anyway I put the entry in.

I just noticed now that it's gone 09:10 and Sky+ is not recording! And yes, the entry for Dr Who has gone again!

So not only is the series links **** it also can loose ordianry items that don't clash with anything!

2nd If you record the last program at night on FilmFour Sky+ will say "Part Rec" No Signal. At the end of the last program they go to a still image... I think Sky+ then thinks it's getting no signal after a couple of minutes with no picture content change!

3rd snag, the optical output.
When you put Sky+ in standby e.g. to watch ITV / VCR etc it still gives out a carrier signal from it's optical output and thus my Sony amp with auto input selection priority does not switch from optical to analogue inputs.
Also, the poor optical output is on in Sky+ which I assume will shorten it's life.

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 09-30-2001).]


----------



## Tim Browse

> Originally posted by jont:
> *Hoping to get my Sky+ today from Heathrow Dixons (tax free !!)*


Hey!



> *As part of my VAT free savings on the box I'll donate a tenner to the NY fund aswell...*


Glad you said that...the mention of duty free shops always reminds me of this:



> May I just say one thing about Duty Free shops before I go on to talk about the Psion? It's not that things aren't cheaper in the Duty Free shops they are. Infinitesimally. You do save a very small amount of money if you shop at them. Of course you can then lose a very hefty sum of money in fines if you fail to realise that you have to declare anything you've bought duty free to the customs when you come back into the country. The stuff is only really duty free if you intend to spend the rest of your life on an aeroplane.
> 
> So what happens when you buy stuff at the Duty Free shop for very slightly less than you would in the high street? It means that most of the money saved on duty is going into the coffers of the Duty Free shops rather than helping to pay for the National Health Service (and Trident).
> 
> So why did I buy my Psion at the Duty Free shop?
> 
> Because I'm a complete idiot, that's why.
> 
> -- Douglas Adams​


Tim 

[This message has been edited by Tim Browse (edited 09-30-2001).]


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## Automan

Alan Jay, Stargate-SG1 daily reruns now have a "Series Link" on the 18:00 showing







Sky managed it in the end.
I assume TiVo still has the same description for every epsiode and thus records them all!

Alternate shots of inside a Sky+ box can be viewed at Inside Sky+ (3 images in preview and full 1.3megapixel mode)

P.S. My Box has been pretty good the last few days and now it can make my Blue "Dolby Digital" indicator light up on my it's really cool








Thus I've hooked my TiVo up to my ITV Digital box which now sits on the shelf below Sky+

P.S. I was wondering when my box lost audio on 3 channels whether it thought those were transmitting in Dolby Digital and thus was trying to playback the Dolby datastream rather then the old conventional audio stream - thus no sound from live or recorded data on those channels?

Automan.


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## Matthew Finlayson

Actually no - when I went through and deleted all of the 6am entries last night, I noticed that they'd all got distinct descriptions.


----------



## Maclynn

I have my Sky+ TV out connected to TiVo Aux in.
If Tivo is recording and I try to play back a Sky+ recording TiVo records this instead. 
Does anyone know a way of avoiding this.
Mike.


----------



## Automan

> I have my Sky+ TV out connected to TiVo Aux in.
> If Tivo is recording and I try to play back a Sky+ recording TiVo records this instead.
> Does anyone know a way of avoiding this.


Mike,
Alas not, two PTR's dont make an ideal combination! It's very annoying when your watching a recording made with Sky+ and TiVo issues the IR to change channel and all of a sudden your watching something else!

Thus my TiVo box is now linked to my ITV digital box feeding another scart socket on my TV (only composite video). I may soon try linking the TiVo output to Sky+ VCR socket which should support RGB input.

P.S. Dolby Digtal Test Are Back On At The Moment








Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 10-02-2001).]


----------



## jont

A little known travel feature is if you fly domestically now (as I do oftern from Glasgow to Heathrow or Gatewick) you can take advantage of the VAT free sales from the 'airside' shops in the Terminal ... It's not only display goods that they sell, if you get the sales code from a Dixons high street store for a product they can order that aswell ... I got my Tivo this way and saved £75 in the old days of £400 Tivos ...

It's not a lot off but it helps ... also with Dixons you can take it back to a high street store if anything goes wrong !!


----------



## Maclynn

Automan, I have changed to a variation of your setup.
I am using my old On box as TiVo's main feed now.
It is fine for me as I mainly record from the old BBC and ITV channels.
I use the Sky plus to record sat and conflicting prog's. then feed this into into TiVo's VCR socket. This gives RGB on both and lets me watch Sky+ recordings while TiVo records.
I hope this makes sense.
Mike.


----------



## Automan

Had one of my friends around today who was looking at purchasing either TiVo or Sky+

Anyway, I showed hime all the neat things that TiVo could do followed by Sky+

Being bold on Sky+ I demomstrated bookmarks, marking records form the search and scan banner etc followed by the new interactive stuff on Sky News, movie channels and then on Disney.
I then noted on 603 Thunderbirds was on so I thought I'd show the pause live equiv of TiVo.

Thus I paused it and started it playing a minute behind realtime.
I then said I give it something to think about and asked it also to record Thunderbirds.
Thus it then performing 3 x hard disc tasks at once...
1. recording thunderbirds to keep
2. recording thunderbirds for livetv pause delay
3. playing back #2 a minute late
All of course at broadcast quality...

I then said I show you bookmarks on livetv and thus pressed pause and red button.
Pressed play again for a while followed by pause.
I then pressed green for the bookmark menu but rather than getting the bookmark menu it changed to disney chn 614!

Tried this again making recordings on 106 and pressing green would always give you 614!
Then tried it after stopping the thunderbird recording - the same results.
I thought then I'd try the bookmarks on a saved recording and this worked okay and when I returned to livetv they worked okay as well.

A bug linked to the interactive stuff maybe? 614 was the last channel I tried the interactive on...

My visitor by the way was more impressed with Sky+ with it's ease of use and speed of operation. Plus of course he has a Digibox already and thus is 100% familar with the user interface.

Automan.


----------



## Guest

> Originally posted by Automan:
> * P.S. Dolby Digtal Test Are Back On At The Moment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Automan.
> 
> [This message has been edited by Automan (edited 10-02-2001).]*


Automan, are they only testing during the day? everytime i try the test channel its slient, i work 9-5 so i can't test during normal working hours. I have a Sony str-db940, can't wait to see that blue light







(that light is alot more distracting on the 940, than your 1070... git







)


----------



## Automan

> Automan, are they only testing during the day? everytime i try the test channel its slient, i work 9-5 so i can't test during normal working hours. I have a Sony str-db940, can't wait to see that blue light (that light is alot more distracting on the 940, than your 1070... git


Test only seem to be from about 9:30 to 16:30 weekdays...

The 1070 may have a smaller blue light but it has no light at all on the volume knob which is not motorised and takes several turns to go from max to min.

I used to be able to judge the volume level before changing inputs with that red led... I really miss it









Automan.


----------



## Automan

I've tried to repeat the livetv bookmark problem after an interactive channel and the "bug" can be repeated!

Those nice folks at Sky are going to try it out and if it's not my imagination they will fix - simple over the air software update









If you want to try and repeat it try this....

Goto 501 
Press Red 
When Active has loaded press Sky to quit it... 
Select another channel e.g. 106 
Press pause 
wait a little while e.g. 30 secs 
Press play 
wait 30 secs or so 
Press Pause 
Press red to bookmark location 
Press play 
wait 30 secs or so 
Press Pause 
Press Green for bookmark menu

The last step makes my unit change to 507 or whatever interactive channel you pressed red on last!

To get the bookmarks to work properly again. 
Select a recording in your Sky+ Planner 
Play it 
press pause 
press green for the bookmark menu

Live TV bookmarks will work again unless your stupid enough to select interactive









Slightly obscure bug, but indicates how the interactive stuff can upset other functions of your digibox.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

I now have a list of Sky+ Bugs At http://www.hummer.co.uk/skyplus-bugs.html made up of all the most common complaints so far (16 at the moment).

If you have one to add just email the link on the page.

Many Thanks
Automan.


----------



## Automan

Alan has got some wondeful news about new features / bug fixes coming to a Sky+ box near you...

See http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=3917 for his article....

I expect he is to shy to place a link himself









Automan.


----------



## DocPaul

Anyone know if Sky are doing any Dolby Digital tests? Since I got my Sky+ box I've had the optical cable plugged into my Amp but so far it's just been a 48K stereo signal. I'd love to test the audio!

Paul H


----------



## Automan

Paul, see the UK General Chit-Chat Area at http://www.avsforum.com/ubbcgitivo/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=UK+General+Chit-Chat&number=13&DaysPrune=2&LastLogin= for info...

Automan.


----------



## ALanJay

It has been encrypted since I spoke to the SKY+ boss about it yesterday. He obviously wasn't happy that they hadn't encrypted the sound and told someone to deal with it.

By the way he says he reads this forum (but doesn't comment) as he is also incharge of SKY's involvement in Tivo. 

ALan

PS thanks Automan for postinmg the link


----------



## mrtickle

> Originally posted by ALanJay:
> *
> By the way he says he reads this forum (but doesn't comment) as he is also incharge of SKY's involvement in Tivo.
> *


What involvement is that? The kind of involvement we need is technological, not marketing: a direct cable from TiVo to the digibox's serial port to change channels in a bulletproof manner.


----------



## Guest

WORD OF WARNING...

Just found out that if you record a box office event you will only be allowed to watch it once, without stopping, before SKY+ marks it as VIEWED and doesn't let you back into it!!

Set-up SKY+ to record the Hearsay Concert repeat (for the kids you undertand), it appeared in the planner and all was well, until I tuned into channel 770 before the recording was due to take place that was. Unknown to me SKY+ interpreted my 2 second viewing on channel 770 as having watched the whole concert and changed the listing in planner to VIEWED, even though the recording had not yet taken place. The box would not allow me to set-up a further recording and the £9.99 was lost.

Sky told me that this was the way the unit was designed to work and that it wasn't clever enough to know if the recording had happened and simply just marks everything as viewed no matter how short your viewing time was. They also advised that had the recording taken place and I then stopped the playback to make the dinner or walk the dog, then I would not be able to watch the rest of it!!!!! Sort of defeats the purpose of having SKY+!!! Also suspect the same thing will happen if you record a non-multiplay movie from box office, but not going to waste £3.50 trying it!!!!

Sky did re-book the concert for me, saying I could record it again that day, but in true fashion I never was able to. Don't tell them but TIVO got the full concert and it is still there in full glorious technicolour, PURE & SIMPLE!!!!!

No where is that SKY number, got a £10 refund to get!!

[This message has been edited by Speedbird (edited 10-09-2001).]


----------



## Automan

Most boxoffice events will let you play them as many times as you want in a 24hr timeframe from your first viewing.
Special events can override these standard rules.

When you view the event it should display the rules / how many hours remain before auto delete occurs.

I must admit the change of status the moment you watch 1 second of a recording is daft.

I'm sure they will improve this in a later s/w update.

Sky+ is only been out 40days - TiVo's been out a year and the user interface/features has not changed one bit









Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

V1.5.1 shipped quite quickly after V1.5.0 was released - erm bit too quickly though as it brought many bugs. Lets hope the Sky+ update doesn't do the same!

Updates will hopefully be more frequent once we are on the same code base as the US!

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## Maclynn

Has anyone attempted a Sky+ drive upgrade yet, mine is filling up rapidly.
Mike.


----------



## richard plumb

I think I read somewhere that it was just a case of slapping a bigger drive in. Apparantly the Sky+ box comes with a blank hard drive installed, so the hardware puts all the necessary files on it when it starts up.

Worth a try if you have a spare disc lying around.


----------



## ALanJay

Yes - in talking to one of the SKY+ engineers there is nothing they are doing that would stop this but from the tests done there are issues of electrical power and spin up times that can cause problems.


----------



## jont

> Originally posted by Maclynn:
> *Has anyone attempted a Sky+ drive upgrade yet, mine is filling up rapidly.
> Mike.*


See Automan's post and screen grabs earlier in this topic - upgarde went Ok for testing purposes but sky s'ware needs a little work I thought ...

[This message has been edited by jont (edited 10-10-2001).]


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## Osy

> Originally posted by Maclynn:
> *Has anyone attempted a Sky+ drive upgrade yet, mine is filling up rapidly.
> Mike.*


My site details my findings on this issue. I still haven't been able to track down a drive that works perfectly (apart from another 40Gb drive), but have been contacted by others planning to try some soon.

Paul Osborn
Inside SkyPlus: http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao/skyplus

[This message has been edited by Osy (edited 10-10-2001).]


----------



## Automan

I know someone has tried changing the disc and it seems the disc is fat32

See http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao/

However, fat32 does not support big files (>4gigs) unlike NTFS so I was wondering if it's like fat32 but not quite.

Also if it was fat32 would pace have to pay Bill Gates for it?

Automan.


----------



## ALanJay

I think that they already use one of the Microsoft embedded operating systems - according to some reports - so I;m sure this isn't an issue.

It may be a custom format based on FAT32 which is written when you reset the system but which is compatible from a reading perspective on other FAT32 capable systems. But to confirm all that one needs to know alot more about file systems than I do.


----------



## mrtickle

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *
> 
> However, fat32 does not support big files (>4gigs) unlike NTFS *


Er, where did you get the idea there was such a limit?

"The maximum possible number of clusters on a volume using the FAT32 file system is 268,435,445. With a maximum of 32 KB per cluster with space for the file allocation table (FAT), this equates to a maximum disk size of approximately 8 terabytes (TB)."
(see http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q184/0/06.ASP)


----------



## Automan

mrtickle,
I could not get that link to work but you may wish to try http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/en/server/help/choosing_between_NTFS_FAT_and_FAT32.htm which details the limts of fat32

I do digital video capture and I know for a fact you can't make a file larger than 4gigs on a fat32 disc.

Only NTFS has no file size limits.

Thus my theory that Sky+'s disc has a FAT32 variant.

Automan.


----------



## cyril

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *I know someone has tried changing the disc and it seems the disc is fat32
> 
> See http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao/
> 
> However, fat32 does not support big files (>4gigs) unlike NTFS so I was wondering if it's like fat32 but not quite.
> 
> Also if it was fat32 would pace have to pay Bill Gates for it?
> 
> Automan.*


4gb limit is not a problem for AV software as you just split the recording into smaller files e.g. MGI pure Diva splits them into 1GB files.

NTFS has a 16 exabyte limit, which is enough to record almost every TV program made by mankind! When are we gonna get an exabyte Tivo? In 20 years?

Gates gets a few $$$ for each Windows CE license that Sky+ uses. A FAT32 license would be included with that I guess.

[This message has been edited by cyril (edited 10-10-2001).]


----------



## Automan

Cyril,
On Paul's website at http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao/skyplus/drive.html he mentions the filestructure and that his pc would not read the large file.

Thus I suspect Sky+ makes a file that breaks the 4gig limit by some tweak of the standard fat32 filesystem.

Drive data fragmentation is also of interest. TiVo uses a strange transactional filesystem (if I recall) to avoid these problems.

How will a normal 40gig hard disc cope after lots of made/deleted recordings - defrag for Sky+ maybe









Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *mrtickle,
> I could not get that link to work but you may wish to try http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/en/server/help/choosing_between_NTFS_FAT_and_F AT32.htm which details the limts of fat32
> 
> I do digital video capture and I know for a fact you can't make a file larger than 4gigs on a fat32 disc.
> 
> Only NTFS has no file size limits.
> 
> Thus my theory that Sky+'s disc has a FAT32 variant.
> 
> Automan.*


Ah, I see where you were going now. Limit on the size of a single _file_, not total partition size - sorry









Interesting (but typical) that one half of MS can't agree with the other - your page says that the FAT32 partition limit is 2TB but the knowledge base page said 8TB









Having said that, why do you assume that Sky+ doesn't currently split recordings into 4GB chunks? It'd only need a bit of buffering on playback after all. And it would only be a problem for very long (4 hours?) recordings.


----------



## Maclynn

Let's hope TiVoMad buys a Sky+. Then all our problems will be solved.
Mike.


----------



## Maclynn

I was bored this morning so I tried a little experiment. I had an old Quantum Fireball 6 gig disc, complete with Win 98 and a load of old files lying about. I put this in as a replacement for the Sky+ drive.
After waiting for ages for the Sky box to format it I was finally able to get it out of standby.
All appeared well apart from there being no plus functions.
I did a reset through the menu which put it back into standby. Switched on again and all was well.
I filled the disc with recordings (only about 3+ hours because it is a small drive), and tried all the replay functions out. It seemed to behave perfectly.
Now I have to save the pennies to try a larger drive out.
The other thing I wanted to try was to see if the software supported slave drives, doubtful but worth a try, but I don't have the correct power cable yet.
I hope this encourages other people to experiment.
Mike.


----------



## Automan

Mike,
I may try changing the disk in my unit for a 20Gig I have.

Does the percent indicator system to seem to adjust correctly for the different capacity hard disk?

e.g. with the 6gig disc does it say a movie will take 60% or so of the space?

I have noted the examples in the Pace manual indicate recordings using much more space (or the prototype machines had a smaller disc).

If it does get the math correct I may order one of these 80gig Maxstor drives from Simply and try - if it does not work maybe I can put it in TiVo instead...

P.S. Have you tried copying the files from your 6gig test disc back onto your pc's normal format disc... Do the files copy without error? e.g. general disc failure reading drive x ?


Automan.


----------



## Maclynn

Automan,the percentage gauge seemed to be fairly accurate for the size of the disc but I believe people have had poor results with larger discs.
I did try to copy the files to my computer but it would not let me, I can't remember the message I got.
You can open them from the Sky+ drive but they are of a type I don't recognize.
I suggest you only try a larger drive if you can make use of it in TiVo or your P.C. if it wont work in the Sky box.
You were right about my S video lead. I re-soldered it and it is fine, thanks.
Mike.


----------



## Automan

Mike,
I could not get my 20G drive to play with - gone missing









Thus I've ordered a DiamondMax 540X 60GB IDE 3.5HH 2MB 5400RPM 9.6MS U100 NS (4K060H3) from http://www.buy.com for £103.48 delivered (next day).

Thus I'm expecting 50% more recording space









If it does not work in Sky+ I will maybe try in my PC or TiVo.

Automan.


----------



## Maclynn

Good luck with your drive swap Automan. Let us know how you get on.
One other topic I have thought about is the series link problem.
As a work around couldn't Sky simply enable it for everything. That way we could use it for all series and if used by mistake on a single show it wouldn't matter anyway as there would be nothing to record.
Mike.


----------



## Guest

Thanks for all the info guys. I will now not be getting Sky Plus. It sounds like Tivos evil twin.

I'll be sticking with trusty Tivo. Unless it goes bust, that is.

------------------
Just go forward in all your beliefs, and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.


----------



## TivoUK

I have been away on holiday for 3 weeks and the Sky + appears to have owrked fine while I was away.

My nephew called round and added shows that I wanted recorded each week that did not have a series link.

Now, to check the Tivo...


----------



## Automan

VCR style timer will soon be added to Sky+ for items with no series links (sounds a bit like TiVo's manual record option)!

It's now been two weeks since my TiVo's been out of standby - I know it still okay as sometimes the led's light up and my "Caller Display 1500" says "Phone In Use" - Some gadgets know when the phone line is in use









I suspect TiVo may be to clever for the mass uk market?

Automan.


----------



## pauljs

Short review in The Sunday Times



> Sky+ seems like a marriage made in heaven, offering the chance to receive digital broadcasts and record them straight to hard disk. The box is simple to use, all the controls being screen led. Live television can be paused, recordings can be programmed seven days in advance, and the planner will record all shows in a series automatically, cleverly differentiating between new episodes and repeats. Recorded programmes have the same picture quality as live viewing, but you may decide that £300 and £10 per month is too much for a glorified video recorder


What hope is there for these people still stuck on VHS


----------



## Automan

VHS - What's that









Sky seem to be making real progress with their Series Links with no hickups for quite a while.

My Box now Series links that work for the following...
All of which have been automatically inserted.










Of course Sky+ 'Series Links' know the difference between 1st runs & reruns.
Thus I have two 'Series Links' for Stargate and The Simpsons.

Automan.


----------



## TivoUK

Good news on the extra series links, first time I have seen any non-Sky 1 ones listed. Will have a look at my shows when I get home Friday night. Pity it was not added before I went on holiday, had to have my nephew call in each week I was away to add shows to be recorded.

We appear to have similar tastes in TV shows also









Can I brag I was the first episode of ENTERPRISE while in Maui a few weeks ago??









Sorry, could not resist









[This message has been edited by TivoUK (edited 10-16-2001).]


----------



## Automan

TiVoUK
Was "Enterprise" in widescreen?
Granda Plus also have "Series Links"









Anyway, my 60Gb drive has now arrived...
Comparing its spec with the original it's pretty close.

Old drive
4500rpm
Power on to drive ready ~8secs
Power peak <8.5w
Access time average 12ms
Full stroke 24ms

New drive
5400rpm
Power on to drive ready 7.5secs
Power peak 5.2w
Access time average 12ms
Full stroke 24ms

Thus tonight I shall give it a try (time permitting)
I would assume the only grey area is the actual disc format?

Automan.


----------



## TivoUK

Yes, ENTERPRISE was in w/s but UPN show it in letterbox.
As there is little chance of Sky showing it w/s lets hope the BBC get hold of the series soon.


----------



## Automan

Yes, I've done it...
My box now is operating on a 60Gb drive...
The box issued no warnings or other errors on start-up.
This was a virgin new drive straight out of the sealed bag into Sky+

I did run the housekeeping option to be on the safe side.
At that point it restarted - bad news you think?
No, NEW SOFTWARE








Now Model 5.6.3
Sky+ 1.21.A

Before swapping the disc I made note of the space estimated for two recordings

1. Alien Nation 7% before 5% after upgrade
2. Very Bad Things 11% before 8% after upgrade

At the moment it's recording and playing back the live buffer and all seems okay - then to box it up and put all my 'series links' back.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Doh!
I should have read Paul's page on his test more carefully...

I did not note the free space indicator....
With an empty disc it says 25% free space









I shall try and fill the thing up and see what it does.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Again as Paul noted the bar graph of free space / space used by a recording seems correct - it's just the numeric display of free space thats wrong - it was down to 8% when I left for work and it was recording all night and is set to record things all day.

The question is will it start deleting stuff when the numeric value approaches 0% or will it accurately know how much space remains - I should know tonight!

Automan.


----------



## Osy

I noticed the software update this morning. We now get 'DELETING' message when you delete a recorded program. So I guess they are working their way through that list. It seems that Sky will give us more incremental improvements, rather than Tivo's rare major revisions.

------------------
Paul Osborn
Inside SkyPlus: http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao


----------



## Automan

I've just tried looking at the original disc with a Windows 95 dos disc.

It shows space but no files
Tried with Ghost 6.5 and it reports file size errors.

Ghost would let me do a total disc image but it would need 38gigs of free space









Thus I think the disc format is like fat32 but not quite.

Automan.


----------



## Osy

I was able to read the disc easily under Win2k. From reading around it seems likely that it uses Fat32X, an extension to Fat32 with improved supoport for large drives. I suspect that Win95 is a bit too old.
If you can't read them yourself, but want to take a look at the smaller system files on the disc, let me know and I'll send you them. I can't of course send any copyright material, as Win2k claims those files are unreadable.

------------------
Paul Osborn
Inside SkyPlus: http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao


----------



## paulpenny

Sorry to move away from the technical discussions.

I had the "happy"







experience of my Sky+ box turning up for installation and then seeing it disappear again because the Sky installer couldn't/wouldn't touch the dish which is on my chimney. Of course, telling them this in advance, to try and avoid the problem didn't make any difference!

First date for an install by their specialist team was November (I think this year).

My usual satellite installers cannot still get hold of the Sky+ boxes. Nor can any other installers at the moment.

I have, therefore, decided to "create my own" by installing a second Sky box for dedicated recording from my Tivo. (I know it is not the same, but I like the Tivo and so I would be happy.)

My problem is that the Sky dish requires an adaptor which allows it to hold the quad lnb. Does anyone have any idea where I might get one of these? I already have two sky dishes - one for the main room and one feeding the family room - so another is not really possible.

Anyone with some ideas?

Thanks

------------------
Paul


----------



## Maclynn

Paul, why not go into Currys or Comet and pick up a Sky+ box. They come complete with the Quad LNB and dish adaptors.
You can fit it yourself and save £50.00 or get an independant to do it.
The stores around here have plenty of stock.
Mike.


----------



## jont

Paul

Can you not pick up a Sky+ box at your local Dixons/Currys and tell them that you have a non-standard installation so you don't need them to book it with Sky ... pay your money, wlak out and then give to your local friendly installer who will put it up for 'whatever' ... ???

That's what I did and was fine...

rgds

J

ps - if you can get the quad lnb that's in the box it comes with a bracket.


----------



## dsloper

Hi, May i ask a few questions about installing SKY+ yourself.

1. Can you use the standard coax cable as you can for normal sky, or do you need special cable.

2. How do you activiate sky+ subs if you install it yourself?

MTIA

Darren


----------



## paulpenny

> Originally posted by Maclynn:
> *Paul, why not go into Currys or Comet and pick up a Sky+ box. They come complete with the Quad LNB and dish adaptors.
> You can fit it yourself and save £50.00 or get an independant to do it.
> The stores around here have plenty of stock.
> Mike.*


Aaagh!







I know this is going to sound very thick, but I didn't know that you could do that. I thought that they just dealt with the sale and then the Sky installer brought the box with them when they came to install.

On the bright side, if I had known that I would not have bought a Tivo, so some good has come of it!

The question now is do I still buy Sky+ or carry on with my dual Sky receiver/Tivo setup.

Cost wise I would think it is OK.

Tivo £249, Sky receiver £89 (on Yahoo Auctions),secondary Sky sub £12 pm, Tivo subscription £10 per month, cost of quad lnb install etc.

Sky+ £299, subscription £10 pm, cost of installation etc

OK, Sky+ is a bit cheaper, but then it doesn't have quite the same functionality as the Tivo.

Now where can I get that quad lnb........?

------------------
Paul


----------



## jont

Darren

Yes co-ax is the same - there is a special twin-core that some installers use for a new install, but mine just slung a new single run to the lounge for the twin feeds to sky+, I then got another two single runs to the bedrooms whilst he was there ...

I then rang Sky CS and got my sky+ subs added to my direct debit - took about 5 mins....


----------



## Automan

CT100 single sat cable or CT63 twin co-ax cable

The CT63 has a maximum run of 30 metres CT100, 100 metres

If your existing install was done by a proper engineer it should have be done in CT100 some 'cowboys' have be known to use ordinary TV UHF co-ax which is not really suitable.

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 10-17-2001).]


----------



## dsloper

Thanks for your quick responses. I take it the sky+ will accept my card, or do I need the sky+ equivalent of the new install menu on sky. I'll try and clarify that statement : Do I need to marry the card to the box, or do I just plug my card in and go.

Again, MTIA

Darren


----------



## Osy

I had an independant fit my Sky+ upgrade, but handled registration myself. I phoned the number on the Sky+ box, and selected the 'active my Sky+ subscription' option at the menu. Spoke to a nice lady who pointed out that because they have not recieved a call from my box, they could not activate it. So had to hang up, perform New Installation option in hidden menu to cause box to phone Sky, then phone Sky myself to activate.
Actually had to call back an hour later as Sky+ features had not activated and I was impatient. They resent the signal and it worked straight away.

------------------
Paul Osborn
Inside SkyPlus: http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao


----------



## Automan

My 60Gb Sky+ box has survived its first day and seems to have recorded everything asked (non-stop almost for the last 20 hrs at broadcast quality)









The free disc space indicator that said 8% at this morning now reports 47%

All the recordings report using less percentage so I assume most of Sky+ code knows about different disc sizes with a 28 min rec registering as 1% of capacity.

It also looks like the software upgrade has fixed the copy to tape option as all items now indicate this okay.

See http://www.hummer.co.uk/disc-change.htm for a brief install guide









Who wants to try a 80Gb drive?

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 10-17-2001).]


----------



## jwestoby

I recently got Sky+ and was wondering about getting a Tivo too (to record the TV out), but since they seem disinclined to support Sky+ (and I don't want to pay £10 for another sub) I decided not to.

If Sky+ is going to be able to record two signals (hardware can, since it can have a EPG recording and live pause at the same time) then there's even less reason for a Tivo!

My wish list -


(I also installed my own box to check it seemed OK, but then left it to the installer to activate - just in case they were going to be awkward. It really is trivial if you've got Sky to start with.)


------------------
Jim Westoby


----------



## jwestoby

As I was saying before my message sent itself (hit the tab key while on 'autopilot' - mea culpa).

My wish list -
Dual record
Timed record (for radio)
Bigger disk (I'll do it when someone has tried the Maxtor 80GB!!!)
Restore AutoView function (I miss it)

Much less so -
VCR dump ONLY through VCR socket (but effectively you get two subs)
15 second go back (a la Tivo, but this would require it to always record which isn't desirable)
Simple 'Series Link' which just uses the program name (not sure how useful getting 6 repeats would be though)

One (really picky) crticism I do have is getting to the Sky+ planner screen, it means shifting the remote in my hand (TV Guide, 0) - unless I'm missing a shortcut [I didn't get a manual in my box so I'm running blind, yes I've asked for one, several times]. When I get around to it I'll program my RC5000 to do it!

I don't really want Tivo's suggestions, if only because it would use even more time (which none of us have!) - to paraphrase someone's sig on this site, "it's only TV".

Overall, even although it's frozen on me a few times, I think this kit is a definite yes. I like it, my spouse likes it and when ITV hits Sky the VCR is out of here (except as an occasional backup).

It is difficult to quantify how EASY it (Tivo & Sky+) makes things, this is a problem of marketing. But I've never seen anyone say they'll go back to tape no matter how much they ***** about one or the other.

I never keep recordings (just time-shift) so a writable DVD just isn't on my shopping list.

Think I'll go look at the EchoStar PVR too .........

------------------
Jim Westoby


----------



## Automan

Jim,
Dual record - Soon








Timed record (for radio) - It would be nice, perhaps the manual timer option (when released) will permit?

One (really picky) crticism I do have is getting to the Sky+ planner screen, it means shifting the remote in my hand (TV Guide, 0) - No shortcut but you could create a RC5000 key that does it









I was also thinking of making my pronto/rc5000 have a button that when pressed issued the rewind command - delay - play so Sky+ starts playing at the correct point after commericals (Like TiVo does).

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 10-18-2001).]


----------



## Automan

Today my 60Gig Sky+ box ran out of disc space (had it set to manual disc space management).

Anyway it recorded a total of 2,216 minutes, which is just under 37hrs in 37 recordings.

The numeric free disc space indicator also now seems to give the correct result.

All the programs it recorded (with length & space used is listed at http://www.hummer.co.uk/disc-change.htm near the bottom).

Automan.


----------



## Guest

Great work Automan.
It's efforts like yours that restore my faith in human nature...I'm even thinking of coughing up the £10 a month sub myself now that it is hackable to some extent.

Like you said...anyone brave enough to try it with a larger 4800rpm disk?

Ian Guinan


----------



## paulpenny

> Originally posted by jwestoby:
> 
> If Sky+ is going to be able to record two signals (hardware can, since it can have a EPG recording and live pause at the same time) then there's even less reason for a Tivo!
> 
> [/B]


I am not looking to start an argument







but I am not sure that I agree that Sky+ is a replacement for the Tivo anymore than any other Satellite/PVR combo.

I agree that it is a great product and that the fact it can use the Sky EPG to simplify recording makes it very easy to use, but it is still fundamentally different to the Tivo (that is not better or worse, just different).

Why? Because of the "learning" capabilities. Sky+ does not fill your hard drive with programs it thinks you might like, it just records what you tell it.

Some may see this as a benefit. Personally, I like finding that there are programmes available to watch that I like and didn't know were "on"

Just my opinion









------------------
Paul


----------



## Automan

Paul,
TiVo sure is smart, and maybe to smart for what the average Joe in the street wants.
Plus with virtually no advertising or in store displays not many people are likely to buy or even realise what they can do.

With an influx of $ from Sony and a nice UK Sony badged box / marketing I suspect they will do better (more so if version with integrated STB's are launched).

However, at present I suspect new sales for TiVo in the UK must be very low.

Automan.


----------



## paulpenny

Automan,

My comment was inspired because I noticed a number of comments bracketing Sky+ and Tivo together and implying that they were the same. I feel this misses the whole point about the Tivo.

I agree that most people in the UK would be delighted with the simplicity of the Sky+ system, particularly when compared to the traditional VCR.

The fact that take up of the Tivo is poor is due to Tivos failure to get their message across effectively. Now that Sony are involved that may change - I hope so.

I would love to see a Tivo with a built in Sky box ( or, I suppose, a Sky+ box with Tivo software! - perhaps more likely?)

In the meantime I have acquired a Sky+ box purely for the spec - i.e. Svideo & DD outputs. I can now let my old Sky box feed my Tivo exclusively. Of course, I can change to Sky+ inplace of Tivo at anytime if I think it is worth it.



------------------
Paul


----------



## jwestoby

Hi Paul, no argument here (and certainly never any hard feelings to another's point of view).

I agree with you that the learning is Tivo's killer. I often have little to watch because I only record what I know want to see.

If the Sky+ had the same sort of thing I'd probably use it (technology sort of creeps up on you) but since I'm used to VCR's I don't miss it - yet!

It must be VERY difficult to sell something which has no OVERT advantages. Probably once you're used to it it's diffcult to imagine life without (Tivo as a class A drug?).

I thought about buying a Tivo (who said propellor head?), still am to be honest. But am not sure how useful it's suggestions would be when it's not the 'centre of attention'.

It's not massive money so I might buy one (you would be horrified at the number of 'toys' slumbering in my attic) but even so I'd want a bigger disk if I'm using it for suggestions and although I can do it easily enough it's something else to HAVE to do.

For me, and this is just for me, at the moment Tivo has enough minuses to make me pause -
Doesn't like [my] Sky+ box (bad Tivo!)
Want a bigger disk - now!
Suggestions may be flaky if it's not being used all the time
Some talk (this forum) doubting Tivo's future
(I sincerely hope this is NOT true, this technology is fun)
Misses the ends of programmes
(due to the schedules and no auto padding, I know)

I don't doubt it will come but at the moment come 20:00 on Monday I'm WATCHING 'Andromeda'. When I trust the box(es) more that may/will change and I'll watch 'My TV'.

What I DO know is that I'll be buying a Tivo a LOT sooner than a [1 hour - hah!] recordable DVD!

I enjoy reading about what other people do/have done/think about the kit they have (I want a plasma - but much dosh, give me yours now!!!) and their experiences.

I thank eveyone, moderators and contributors, on this (and other boards I frequent) for their honest, considered, well intentioned thoughts.

------------------
Jim Westoby


----------



## topbanana

> Originally posted by jwestoby:
> *Doesn't like [my] Sky+ box (bad Tivo!)*


Am I going mad, or did I not read that the Sky+ codes were added to TiVo very quickly after the newer box was relased?











> *Some talk (this forum) doubting Tivo's future
> (I sincerely hope this is NOT true, this technology is fun)*


Nah .. they've just announced a *huge* deal with Sony. The future's bright and the stock price is up 40% on the last two days.

------------------
Top Banana


----------



## jont

Jim

What is it about (your) sky+ box that tivo doesn't like ??

My tivo is perfectly happy with my sky+ box - except when it goes into standby ... bad sky+ !!


----------



## Maclynn

Well done TiVo for sorting the Sky+ codes so quickly.
The major, and I suspect insurmountable, problem I found was that it is impossible to watch a recording from Sky+ and record on TiVo at the same time. You just re-record the Sky+ output.
I switched to using TiVo to record only from an old On Digital box instead.
Mike.


----------



## JamesM

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *My 60Gb Sky+ box has survived its first day and seems to have recorded everything asked (non-stop almost for the last 20 hrs at broadcast quality)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


I think that probably entitles me to call my bet with Gary! Will Gary be updating his comparison chart?

Well done Automan.

Mind you, I am more than happy with my 80gb plus 60gb TiVo. You still have a way to go before you are able to match that.

James


----------



## Automan

A digitalspy forum member is going to fit a 80Gig drive next week and that should yield 50hrs of broadcast quality picture & sound









I'm happy with my 37hrs









Automan.


----------



## Guest

Automan,

Am I to understand that all you did was just plug in the unformatted hard-drive & that's it?!

What RPM drive did you use? does it matter?

------------------
Cheers,
Ofer LaOr


----------



## Automan

Ofer LaOr,
Yes, just plug an unformatted drive in and the Box does the rest









However, other forum members have tested some other drives they don't work.

It seems the Digibox's 'BIOS' only allows a short time for spin up.

The original drive is I think 4,500 rpm but it seems happy with 5,400 Maxtor Diamondmax Drives (Just like folks spend hours installing in TiVo's).

I used a Maxtor 60Gb 4k060h3.

Automan.


----------



## TivoUK

Did any one else here have problems with Sky yesterday (Sunday) at all??

I came back to watch Sky News in the early afternoon and could not get a picutre - the banner just sat there for ages. trying to view other stations had about a 50% success rate. Pulling the plug on the box did not fix it so I left well alone.

Came back a few hours later and all appeared to be well again.


----------



## Automan

Yes,
Sky have been playing with the EPG data again. It seems they have been trying to make the program information menu work for more than the current program you are watching. Also so the last channel audio will be available while on the Sky menu's (to replace the old EPG music).

Why they don't use a test copy of the system I don't know.

Perhaps they just like their 6million customers to ring the helpdesk?

Automan.


----------



## Automan

A Digitalspy forum member has now upgraded his Sky+ to 80Gb which I estimate will yield about 50hrs









Automan.


----------



## 1575

And I am member here as well Automan







but do not post much.


----------



## Guest

Which drive did you use for 80GB?
(or do you have a link to where you posted)
Thanks,
Ian Guinan


----------



## Automan

Try http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=35&daysprune= under Hacking Sky+

I think BW used the same 80Gig drive that's popular for use upgrading TiVo's.

See http://www.maxtor.com/products/DiamondMax/DiamondMax/DataSheet/D540X_datasheet.pdf

And
http://www.maxtor.com/products/DiamondMax/DiamondMax/QuickSpecs/42089.pdf

Both Acrobat Documents

BW, Whoops did not spot that your also a TiVo person









Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 10-22-2001).]


----------



## 1575

Yep spot on Maxtor Pt No 4K080H4 - DIAMONDMAX 540X 80GB IDE 3.5HH 2MB 5400RPM 9.6MS U100 NS here page 6 of 9

Whoops Automan has added more info since I drafted this.

Automan yes Tivo as well - its sitting in the corner waiting its turn









[This message has been edited by BW (edited 10-22-2001).]

[This message has been edited by BW (edited 10-22-2001).]


----------



## Guest

Today i called into the new comet store in harrogate, eventually a member of staff came along, how can i help you sir, do you have a tivo i said, no sir they have been withdrawn they were not selling, oh well do you have a sky+, yes it`s the silver one over there, i looked and there was the latest pace stb the facia did not sport the telltale + after sky, when i mentioned this he said the early ones didn`t.He was called away by another member of staff to save him more embarrasment.Within minutes suprise suprise another sales rep appeared, can i help you sir, yes, do you have a sky+ box i can see, no sir they are asrare as rocking horse s---,what would you like to know sir, well how much are they, there £349 sir that includes £50for fitting, i will fit it myself, you cannot sir, can i buy one and take it away, yes sir it will still cost you £349 even if you install it yourself. At that point i left the store. Anyone else have a simular tale to tell
Derek


----------



## Automan

Derek,
I think Comet & Dixons both play the safe sales line, which is to say you pay £50.00 to install.

Most consumers don't have the required skills/equipment to run the twin cable to their dish or check for accurate alignment after disturbing the dish.
Its a lot easier and safer for them than having someone get it home and then not really know what they have to do next.

I do understand Sky+ boxes are in short supply and sales are higher than original estimates.

Also now a shortage of 40Gb quiet drives









Automan.


----------



## TivoUK

Automan,

I ordered a 80 gig. Maxtor from ebuyer to go in my PC at home from this link: http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=25161

but since then I am buying a new PC (very good deal) and the hard disc could be spare.

Is it the right type to go into my Sky + box??


----------



## jwestoby

When I got my Sky+ from Comet (Hatfield) I saw a card, asked at the desk and they went and got (the last) one from the back - £200 just gone like that. I thought I'd order it and then the installer would bring it (he said it saved the problem of installers turning up with the wrong/no kit).

No mention of installation (still no manual - argh) just ring the number on the box.

The installation was paid to the installer (logical), mine didn't like the twin coax (ditto me) so he ran another bit of string alongside.

Basically I think Comet et al are just pleased to see the back of you.


------------------
Jim Westoby


----------



## Automan

TivoUK,
Yes, That's the drive BW has used and I think he is still filling it up









Sky+
Does not come with an installers manual just a normal user manual.
Dish alignment is vital to correct operation and changing the LNB without disturbing alignment (if still aligned 100%) is tricky. The quad LNB also if I recall is not as sensitive as some more modern single LNB's

Also if after it's up and running and you have a problem Sky will most say it's your DIY install that's causing the problem.

Automan.


----------



## 1575

Yep that is the drive I used.

I have finally managed to fill it up (Sky+ on almost continuous record for over 2 days without a glitch)and the capacity was - 48hrs 18 mins. Be aware that whilst the graphical representation of used/remaining space stays fairly accurate, the numerical % was all over the place.


----------



## TivoUK

Thanks to both of you for the reply.

Now I have to decide the best use of the hard disc









Trouble is, I used both the Sky+ and Tivo to record 3 weeks worth of TV while I was away on holiday. I came home from that on the Saturday, then away to Glasgow on the Monday for a week at work. I set them both to record shows for that week.

I have fallen WAY behind (not seen a single Band Of Brothers / Blue Planet yet!!) and do not see the situation getting any better until I am off over Xmas.

Trouble is, I add more shows to be recorded during the week, then I clear by watching at the weekend.

Darn


----------



## Automan

TivoUK,
You could always put the old Sky 40Gb disc in your TiVo which will make it either 80 or 70gb (depending on whether it's a twin or single disc machine).

Does also seem you need the new 100hr day to watch it all









Automan.


----------



## TivoUK

Too late!

I put 2 X 80 gig drives in my Tivo BEFORE I went on holiday.

There must be 6 pages of recordings on that to go through!!

Things would be easier if I did not have other things to do at the weekends 









[This message has been edited by TivoUK (edited 10-25-2001).]


----------



## paulpenny

Some help on Sky+ please.

I want to use my old sky remote to control my sky+ box via the digilink rf feed.

I have followed the instructions in the Sky+ FAQ, but I only seem to have some of the functions. The up/down left/right & select buttons don't work. Nor do the coloured buttons.

Any ideas?

Thanks


------------------
Paul


----------



## Bateman

> Originally posted by TivoUK:
> *Too late!
> 
> I put 2 X 80 gig drives in my Tivo BEFORE I went on holiday.
> 
> There must be 6 pages of recordings on that to go through!!
> 
> *


Bet if i did that there would be 160gigs worth of Simpsons!!!!









------------------
Charles Astwood
http://www.astwood.com 
http://www.london-eating.co.uk


----------



## ALanJay

> Originally posted by paulpenny:
> *Some help on Sky+ please.
> 
> I want to use my old sky remote to control my sky+ box via the digilink rf feed.
> 
> I have followed the instructions in the Sky+ FAQ, but I only seem to have some of the functions. The up/down left/right & select buttons don't work. Nor do the coloured buttons.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> *


The SKY + Remote control uses different IR codes and so the old rfemote control really can't be used sucessfully to control the SKY+ box - I belive you can however get additional SKY+ remotes.


----------



## Guest

> Originally posted by ALanJay:
> *...I belive you can however get additional SKY+ remotes.*


Try this link http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/page3.htm


----------



## Automan

> Try this link http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/page3.htm


He is out of stock as everyone is but is hoping to get some in next week









Good Price









Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 10-27-2001).]


----------



## jwestoby

Sky+ now running on 80GB drive (thanks for the info on which one to get).

Easy EXCEPT that the Sky+ box/HDD is held together with dimpled Tork screws - good job I buy tools anyway!

Got FTA card for the old digibox - less than a week from asking to activation - good job Sky/SSSL!

Still wondering about getting a Tivo too (for suggestions) and a way to nail my kit and use it together sensibly.

Thoughts?


------------------
Jim Westoby


----------



## Osy

Now I'm starting to feel left out. I'm first to get the lid off, and I'm still only running at 40Gb. Having just fried every chip inside my PC, I think I'll have to buy more parts for that first.

I noticed what may be another change following the recent software update. When pausing live TV it used to display the pause symbol and 'Please Wait' whilst it got itself sorted out. That has now been replaced with 'Live Pause'. I noticed because my box got in a state of losing half the channels and being unable to get out of that 'trying to pause' state.

------------------
Paul Osborn
Inside SkyPlus: http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao


----------



## Automan

Paul,
I'm now depressed that I only got a 60Gb drive in my Sky+









Also my home PC kept not seeing it primary harddisk (a 30gb seagate).

Fortuantely I had made a ghost image of it to my second hard disk (20gig in size) 4 x 2gig files ghosts files.

Anyway my pc would not see its disk at all (would not spin up unless interface cable unplugged) so it's main disk is now my ex Sky+ 40gb (after 50 mins to restore the 8gb of ghosted data).

Quantum disk seems a lot slower than my duff Seagate one









P.S.
The neatest new feature of the current Sky+ s/w is the ability to resume playing what you were last playing back by just pressing the play key twice









Regular software updates / new features are so cool. I remember the last feature change we had with TiVo NOT.

Automan.


----------



## Osy

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *The neatest new feature of the current Sky+ s/w is the ability to resume playing what you were last playing back by just pressing the play key twice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


I know that even before that update, you could press play and then select to continue, I don't think I've every used Play-Play.



> Originally posted by Automan:
> *Regular software updates / new features are so cool. I remember the last feature change we had with TiVo NOT.
> *


It is quite impressive that they are doing updates for fairly minor little niggles. Shows good promise for the future (and that they have confidence in they update procedure, unlike ordinary digiboxes). Only a shame there is no set of release notes from the development team listing the changes. Then we could all test them. As it stands I think some changes go by unnoticed (and therefore unappreciated).

------------------
Paul Osborn
Inside SkyPlus: http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao


----------



## Guest

Have noticed that you can jump straight to the beginning of a recording now (and presumably also the end). I am not sure how I did it though !! - I was trying to rewind and then bam! it went straight to the beginning with a |&lt; symbol. Anyone else noticed this ??

Please tell me how I did it !

Also, I noticed some talk about Enterprise earlier - I think Sky have the rights to this and are not showing it until early next year so won't be on the BBC for a long time to come.

Ross.


----------



## Automan

Ross,
Holding the << will take you to the previous bookmark or the begining of the recording.

Instant to recording end should be added in a future s/w upgrade along with an option menu when you reach the end of a recording.
yellow = delete
blue = keep
green = bookmarks.

Yes, adverts for Enterprise have been shown on Sky









Automan.


----------



## TivoUK

My tapes have arrived from the States with various TV shows (I swap with a mate there) and have the first 3 Enterprise shows to watch amongst the 6 tapes I got.

However, now have about 5 weeks of TV to go through on the Tivo / Sky + setup so it may be a while before I can get to them - sigh...

Should I open bidding on someone to buy the tapes after I have viewed them


----------



## richard plumb

BTW, according to BBC2, C4 has the rights to Enterprise for terrestrial TV.

At least it'll be widescreen.


----------



## jwestoby

Automan and others.

Don't feel bad about being trailblazers. I sincerely appreciate the risk you people took.

Anyway you'll probably end up sticking a BIGGER HDD in (when they come out) which I won't be able to justify to her who must be obeyed.

(She likes the Sky+ too and after HAVING to use the EPG for the Sky+ I think I'm finally getting the hang of it.)


------------------
Jim Westoby


----------



## Automan

Jim,
Yes, Sky+ is easier to use than TiVo









However, it's not as smart









I've also found a new bug...

This one is only a small cosmetic bug but I see no reason for it.

Go to your Sky+ Planner and bring up the information window for something you recorded before the clocks changed this weekend.

Yes, it's an hour out. A program recorded at 06:00am now says 05:00am

I would have thought this data would have been read direct from a file stored with the recording.

Still, the Sky software gurus have nearly six months to fix it

Automan.


----------



## Guest

Thanks Automan,

Pitty about the jump to end thing, I thought I'd discovered a new feature ! Oh well.


----------



## dsloper

OK, Real stupid question now. (sorry, but still trying to decide between sky+ or second tivo and digibox)

One thing I want is the dolby digital when they start broadcasting it. However, if I am using the optical audio connection, but watching 'live tv' through Tivo (ie watching as though normal digibox), am I right in thinking the sound is going to be a few seconds out. Hence meaning that if using the optical, I would have to watch via AUX all the time?

Thanks
Darren


----------



## Automan

> I would have to watch via AUX all the time?


Correct...
As you say the sound and picture will be well out of sync. Also the picture quality will be reduced as TiVo will have to turn your "as good as it gets" sky picture into re-manufactured mpeg created by your TiVo box.

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

Thanks Automan, I'm beginning to see why your Tivo never gets used now, looks like a bit hassly at the moment.


----------



## dsloper

Well, I've gone and done it. Bought Sky+ today, and will hopefully fit the new LNB on Friday.

This really is a good forum, but I must say since stumbling across it by accident a few months back it has cost me a bomb. Since reading I have bought a Tivo, Pronto, Sky+ and and still planning on new disks for both Tivo and now sky+. All because of this forum...


----------



## Automan

dsloper,
Good luck with your new Sky+

It also seems Sky are having some "Market Research" company asking Sky+ owners how they are getting on with the kit - £35.00 if you take part (if you get asked).

Its good to know a supplier is interested in feedback from its customers









Automan.


----------



## Automan

I've also have now updated my Sky+ Bug's Page...

It seems since the last software update several have gone into remission









See http://www.hummer.co.uk/skyplus-bugs.html for details.

Automan.


----------



## Maclynn

Any upgraders should avoid the Seagate 80gb ST380020A.
It does not spin up fast enough to be useable.
Mike.


----------



## Automan

For the first time in several weeks my Sky+ let me down









Got home and it said not sat signal but the search and scan banner was okay as was the core epg.

Also both lnb's indicated 90% signal.

The problem occured sometime after 11:00am

Cycled power and all is well.

In my TiVo vs. Sky+ missed recordings battle, I'm afraid Sky+ is still in front as TiVo's inability to always change channel still scored more missed recordings.

Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

Have you weighted each one by the amount of time you have owned them, though?

ie <no of failures> / <no. weeks owned>

Could you have a stab at guessing a figure for each? Ta


----------



## Automan

Yes,
It's based on the last four weeks I used TiVo with my Sony Digibox vs. the last four weeks using Sky+

7 x wrong channels on TiVo
3 x part or full recording failures with Sky+

I'm afraid I did not make note of how many program ends/starts got cut off by TiVo and I typically used to avoiding recording BBC programs knowing I would miss the end









I now record programs from the BBC with confidence that I will see the whole program









It is however true that with Sky+ more time has to be spent placing programs in the Planner to be recorded. While doing this however, I have found other programs of interest (Typically on in the next 24hrs) that TiVo did not suggest and TiVos onscreen guide was to slow to bother with to find.

Also I have had to restart my Sky+ box three times during this period.
However, my Sony box now has the Planner so it would also most likely have locked up a few times thanks to Skys wonderful pre launch testing of their software (if I was still using it rather than Sky+).

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

Why are you getting wrong channels on your TiVo?

------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk


----------



## daveburrows

I was going to ask the same question Gary. I used to get several wrong changes a week where I'd get the first 2 digits dialled in, but the 3rd never reached the box. I found out that the reason for this after testing myself was someone - notabily the cat, walking past the box when a channel change occurred (probably causing the IR to be redirected in another direction).

I've told him under no circumstances is he allowed to walk past the TiVo! As you'll probably guess... that didn't work, so I shut the door before I leave! &lt;g&gt;.

I haven't had an channel change problems since with my TiVo using the IR Blaster!

TiVo channel change errors really should be non-existent!

Dave


----------



## jont

My what's best so far list weighs in favour of Tivo !!

I've missed more programs with Sky+ - either partial/failed recordings or it's forgotten its series link and not bothered to record (including for Eastenders ... which i find strange as it must have the highest audience for programme on satellite !!!) ... this is a real pain in the a*s as I got used to Tivo's setup and forget :-(

What has been useful is that I have left some of my season passes set on Tivo so this *has* kicked in and recorded Eastenders, for example


----------



## Automan

I used to have a sky IR mouse in a sealed box with a TiVo blaster. Also black pvc tape over the Digiboxes IR window and still sometimes TiVo would "glitch" the IR data.

If I recall Ted did say the IR control s/w in TiVo was being revamped in the new software for improved performance º

It has been reported by me (and others) that when TiVo starts to make a recording its sometimes busy doing other background task it can screw up on the IR.

Perfect IR screaning does help but TiVo's IR engine also has a problem.

Also I make at least 175 recordings in four weeks, so the TiVo IR "glitch" count of 7 is fairly low but not good enough.

P.S.
The Sky+ IR code seemed to work a lot better than the Grundig 20006 which is why I hoped TiVo might of liked to try a new one (I created the original Sky+ TiVo ir codes using the Open Keyboard which seem to produce a lot shorter, cleaner codes).

Automan.


----------



## jwestoby

(It's probably misguided but) I'm starting to trust the Sky+ more. &gt;&gt;Tending&lt;&lt; to watch recordings and get the box to record what I'd usually watch.

It rebooted itself the other day (it was on 999, s/w upgrade?) but HAD recorded things during the day.

Lost the sound after I put in the bigger HDD, called Sky (took a while but eventually got there) got through and eventually found the SCART was slightly out - boy am I stoopid! Well done to Sky customer services though. (No, I don't work for them I've just never got less than the above - maybe it's because I try not to sound like I'm moaning or maybe I'm lucky?)


Effectively it may be just a clever VCR (like our Sony SmartFile) but it IS always in use now. If it does ever get (Tivo-like) suggestions I dread to think how much TV I'd have stacked up.

(I record 'This Old House' so it would probably block book 24 hour Home & Leisure! I think I need a TeraByte HDD...)

As annoying as it is that Sky repeat things so often, it, sort of, works as a plus since clashes are rarely terminal - silly isn't it!

(HAD to TAPE 'Lethal Weapon 4' the other day, darn it - 'coz I couldn't be bothered to work out what I had on Sky and when I could get it again)


Ordered Tital AE from Box Office last week, box didn't delete it 24 hours after first watching it (which it said it would). I left it for three days then deleted it myself - odd?

I'll have to try using the EPG more (see if I can dispense with listings mag) I mormally only work a day ahead anyway.


Going to one of the market research junkets (2 weeks away) I'll keep a weather eye on it.


------------------
Jim Westoby


----------



## jont

There are some Sky+ codes up now at remotecentral.com for those pronto/rc5000 owners amongst us ...

In the same vein is there any pronto/rc5000 owners out there in the Glasgow area that wouldn't mind spending a couple of hours helping me to program my RC5000 ?? Beer and/or curry supplied ??

It seems a little arcane and I have cut/pasted/merged ccfs together but would really like to sort out something a little more bespoke ...

tia


----------



## Guest

Does anyone know if any other manufacturer's will be producing Sky+ boxes?


----------



## Automan

> Does anyone know if any other manufacturer's will be producing Sky+ boxes?


Amstrad one very soon and maybe a Sony one next year...

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

Well my sky+ is now installed, so I now have both Tivo and Sky+.

First impressions of sky+?

Picture quality is better.
Seems quick enough to set recordings
Very quick EPG
Tivo quicker changing sky channel with this digibox
Can't test sound yet as my sub-woofer blew last night.
Oh... and I crashed sky+ within 10 minutes, playing a recording and pressing rewind threww times quickly - needed to reboot.

One question : What's the latest s/w version for the sky+ and can i upgrade with the old power+backup combo or do i need to wait for it to download automatically.

Thanks

darren


----------



## Automan

> One question : What's the latest s/w version for the sky+ and can i upgrade with the old power+backup combo or do i need to wait for it to download automatically.


1.21.a I think and you can force an update in the same way as a normal digibox.

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

Thanks Automan, I had 1.17.x

Sorry to be a pain, but one more question/comment if i may:
I thought Sky+ automatically used padding in it's recordings. In all test recordings I have tried this has not been the case (recordings have not been followed by another recording), in fact the opposite appears.

"Have I got news for you" for example is scheduled today from 21:00 - 21:30 My box recorded from 21:00 - 21:29 but was doing nothing before or after. (Mind you it caught the end ok)


----------



## Guest

> Originally posted by Automan:
> * Amstrad one very soon and maybe a Sony one next year...
> 
> Automan.*


Will Panasonic be bringing one out?

Will they be all the same spec or will the new ones have bigger HD etc


----------



## Automan

> Thanks Automan, I had 1.17.x
> Sorry to be a pain, but one more question/comment if i may:
> I thought Sky+ automatically used padding in it's recordings. In all test recordings I have tried this has not been the case (recordings have not been followed by another recording), in fact the opposite appears.
> 
> "Have I got news for you" for example is scheduled today from 21:00 - 21:30 My box recorded from 21:00 - 21:29 but was doing nothing before or after. (Mind you it caught the end ok)


Maybe the newer s/w adds the padding?
If the box is not recording it would normally start at 20:58 till 21:32

Sky+ boxes at the moment seem to be refusing to record the Simpsons this weekend - press record form the EPG and nothing happens! (reminder does work but not record). If someone has the time and this the same for them perhaps they would like to ring Sky.

I'm 40 miles away from my box so I can't really call them today









Not heard anything about disc sizes or Pansonic model. AlanJ may have more info?

Automan.


----------



## Osy

I've found an annoying deficiency of the Channel 5 EPG data. I keep trying to record Cleopatra 2525 (don't ask). If set it to record a week in advance, it disappears on the day, but if I set it 24hours in advance it tends to work. I wonder if Channel 5 is changing the Programme IDs (I assume that is how it works) on the day of broadcast or something. Similar problem with CSI.
If anyone else has seen this let me know and we can add it to the bug list. Cleo is on fridays at 7:30 if anyone else wants to try.

------------------
Paul Osborn
Inside SkyPlus: http://www.uk.research.att.com/~pao


----------



## ALanJay

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *
> Not heard anything about disc sizes or Pansonic model. AlanJ may have more info?
> 
> Automan.*


Not heard anything - the last time I asked they ern't really saying but they didn't rule out bigger disks in the future but I wouldn't expect it short term. They are still trying to guage and educate the market. I would doubt we would see anything else from them in the way of hardware till well into next year.


----------



## Guest

Hi Paul,

I've had exactly the same problem trying to record CSI on Channel 5 for the last six weeks. I tend to sit down with the newspaper TV sections on Sunday and add everything I want to record for the week and every Saturday I have to re-enter CSI because the entry has disappeared.

Kind of annoying but not as annoying as last night when Sky+ failed to record "Band of Brothers" and then marked all of my scheduled future recordings as "Failed".

Ronnie


----------



## Maclynn

I don't trust Sky+ yet for important recordings,it fails to often.
I use TiVo and an old Ondigi box,for my main recordings. Unlike my old Pace,it has not let me down yet.
The Sky+ is relegated to the not so crucial items.
Let's hope software improvements will sort things out.
Mike.


----------



## OzSat

Sky+ is too unreliable at present.

I had only had one failed recording in the month or so I have had it - but then yesterday at flagged all my planned records to FAILED - even though they had not happened.

I deleted them and re-added them.

An hour later all the new ones had been removed!


----------



## Automan

For the first time ever I left my Sky+ box all alone for four days (IT Refresh @ Work).

Anyway, it recorded everything it was supposed to other than Randall & Hopkirk (job gone from planner) and The Simpsons @ 18:30 sat & sun (bug would not let me mark them to be recorded).

A total of 27 recordings made okay and down to 6% free space









Automan.


----------



## Maclynn

Mine has shown all future recordings as failed again this morning. The reason says cancelled.
Sky obviously think I am a deluded person and told me to waggle my leads.
Tragic really. It's just as well I have a sense of humour.
Mike.
P.S. I've applied for a Christmas job at PC World.
I hope I get it, I look forward to developing a blank expression and misleading people for a few weeks.
By the way, would you like an extended warranty with this message.

[This message has been edited by Maclynn (edited 11-06-2001).]


----------



## Automan

Last night for a laugh I watched a couple of hours of Grampion region ITV.

After that I went to mark a couple of programs to record and I then noted that all future events were set to FAILED recording cancelled.

I was wondering if watching none Sky channels with different rates etc stopped Sky+ from working okay.

First time this as ever happened to me









Automan.


----------



## Guest

I had Sky+ installed today and interestingly the installer fitted a larger minidish in place of my existing one. Tried getting the unit open with a Torx key but only one screw had enough leeway to get a purchase. However Screwfix do a set of security bits that include the correct torx bit so hopefully I'll be able to take a look tomorrow. My unit is completely silent, it will be interesting to see if it has the same drive inside

------------------
Dave


----------



## xneilj

This is a continuation of this thread abdout Sky+ (and comparisons with TiVo) which became a little too long.









Neil.

------------------
See the TiVo UK FAQ at http://www.tivoukfaq.com


----------



## xneilj

Edit by Moderator Gary Sargent: Threads now merged back so this post no longer applies (previously this thread spanned two threads in the old forum and this was the start of the new thread - I've now merged them back as the new forum can manage with long threads)


----------



## jase

HI Automan

I also had the problem of all my scheduled recordings listing as failed on sunday and this was after tuning in Sky channels with different rates etc.

Also when surfing through channels on sunday it jumped to sky active and instead of the usual 6 options or so there was around 12, it spanned across 2 pages. I cant recall what the extra options were because i assumed at the time i would be able to get back to it again, I guess its new interactive services or something.

jase


----------



## Automan

jase,
Yes, it seems anyone who has used their Sky+ box to watch the new ITV's will be in trouble relating to all future recordings.

Several people have reported this side effect (all future recordings are set to failed).

Re the long list in the Interactive menu. This indicates your box needs a reboot to fix.

All of Sky+ problems seem to relate to hickups in/with the EPG.

Automan.


----------



## ALanJay

Automan - I think Jas was correct in saying that it FAILS all its upcoming programmes when you ADD CHANNELS (in the recent case ITV1) and not watching them - been looking on and off at the ITV1 channels over the last few days and not had a problem BUT when I did the ADD CHANNELS it did die in the way discussed by Jas.

This is certainly something for people so check if they use the ADD CHANNELS function.


----------



## Automan

Alan,
I added all the extra channels several days ago.
My box only played up after watching ITV (Grampion) for an hour or so.

Whichever is the case, non sky channels seem to cause a problem









Automan.


----------



## Maclynn

If anyone is curious, archiving Sky+ recordings with multiple drives is possible.
With advice from others I have fitted an 80gb Maxtor in an external caddy. The drive is much cooler and very quiet.
Swapping between drives is simple with this setup and apart from the occasional reboot after changeover, all is fine, with no loss of data.
Any of the known useable drives can be used.
The extended leads exit through the sidecar plate on the rear of the box, so there is no need to damage your box.
Hope this is useful.
Mike.


----------



## Guest

Having just done it I thought I'd post a step by step guide to the upgrade for anyone else contemplating it.

The drive I had bought was one recommended as working by people here, a Maxtor D540X -4K 80Gb 5400rpm drive,

Although others have had success opening the box with a standard Torx bit, I used a special bit designed to remove the spiked Torx screws that was part of a set of security bits (8983-74) from Screwfix Direct at £9.99.

After unplugging the box from the mains, opening the case was a doddle, undo the three spiked torx screws on the back and slide it off. At the front left is a metal cover over the drive held on by 4 screws, with a short IDE cable leading from the mainboard, through bent retaining lugs on top of the cover, to the IDE socket on the drive. I undid both ends of the cable and slid it out of the retaining lugs putting it to one side. I could then undo the four screws and remove the cover. Disconnecting the power lead from the drive allowed the drive to be removed (it is sitting in rubber pads).

It was a pleasant surprise to see that the existing drive was also a Maxtor D540X -4K but the 40Gb model. The old and new drive were jumpered identically.

I placed my new drive in the space vacated and connected the power and IDE leads, then I screwed on the metal cover. I fed the IDE cable back under the retaining lugs and plugged it in to the socket on the mainboard. I then replaced the top cover of the unit and replaced the three screws that held it in place.

After reconnecting the power the unit refuses to come out of standby for about a minute or so. This is presumably while the drive is being prepared. After the usual searching for listings. Everything came up as normal and I was able to live pause TV and start a recording as before. 

The only oddity with the upgraded unit (which I was expecting from reading others experiences) is the percent full indicator which reads 43% when the new drive is empty. 

The whole procedure took less than 10 minutes from start to finish


------------------
Dave


----------



## Automan

We must all thank Alan for the great news that Dolby Digital will be rocking your house (for those with Sky+) very early in December.









See http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=4156 for his article.

It's a shame we will only have 25 DD5.1 movies to record & watch in December









Automan.


----------



## TivoUK

This could be the kick up the ass for me to upgrade the disc in my unit now.

At least they have not said the Star Wars films will be shown in DD yet, that would be rather a big kick!


----------



## ALanJay

Thanks Automan for telling people about the DD 5.1 movies  - SKY also say that they will be extending the number of movies in subsequent months.

Out of curiosiity anybody know how many differnet movies they show on these channels each month? ie what percentage have the got DD 5.1 soundtracks for.


----------



## Automan

ALan,
What's more amazing is that when I got home from work today (another 13hr day).
I turned on my box (which came on showing 998) was EPG Music









This is the first time since I've had Sky+ that the EPG music has worked.

Now we have it all DD5.1 & EPG Music









Where will the marvels of Sky+ end?

Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

There's another marvel soon to arrive. Nearer to xmas you can get dedicated xmas music on one of the Music Choice channels!


----------



## Maclynn

Why are they bothering with the stupid background music when they have more serious problems to fix.
Perhaps it is a case of fiddling while Sky+ burns.
Mike.


----------



## jwestoby

No need to 'dis' Sky - at least they're doing something. Tivo people must be fed up with version 2.5 always "just coming". (I'm sure it'll be worth it when it does.)

Good idea using an external caddy (no patent on this is there?), when I put in the new drive it was VERY hot!

New topic, over the last two weeks my Sky+ has been reset (know because it comes up on 998) several times but has not missed a single recording - someone seems to be doing sonething right so kudos to them.

A case of 'slow and steady gets there' maybe? (I know it's really 'wins the race' but as had been said, Tivo & Sky+ aren't quite the same animal.)


------------------
Jim Westoby


----------



## GarySargent

> Originally posted by jwestoby:
> *No need to 'dis' Sky - at least they're doing something. Tivo people must be fed up with version 2.5 always "just coming".*


Actually I'm now switching to "very soon"









------------------
Find out everything TiVo: http://www.tivoportal.co.uk 
Have your say and vote for the features you want on your UK TiVo: http://www.tivosuggestions.co.uk 
Got a bug? http://www.tivobugs.co.uk

[This message has been edited by GarySargent (edited 11-09-2001).]


----------



## Automan

The EPG music was gone again this morning at 06:55









It's better than the TiVo menu noise just.

Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

> Originally posted by GarySargent:
> * Actually I'm now switching to "very soon"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Ooh!

What has caused you to switch?

What type of wink is that - is it a knowing one?


----------



## sammoj

If I know Gary thats the "I know but am not going to tell you but you might think I know when I don't but either way I could just be winding you up" wink


----------



## Maclynn

Jim, the caddy idea is not mine, It came from Eirman on the Digital Spy website. http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/index.php 
I can highly recommend it.
As to having a dig at Sky, I feel that until they acknowledge that they have problems, and stop treating their customers as idiots, then they are fair game.
Mike.


----------



## Guest

Okay, my Sky+ was installed today and I have to say that I think I must have a dodgy box. Some of the time the picture quality is perfect but the rest it is very poor. The best way I can describe it is that some objects, and it especially affects faces / flesh tones, look like a mountain range on a map or a fingerprint.

I know I have explained that really badly but is this a phenomonen anybody else has experienced or can any of the techies out there explain what the problem is?

Thanks and regards

Simon


----------



## Automan

Simon,
Did they do a good job with your dish alignment? Do you get good signal strenth & quality readings?

How is it linked to your TV? Is RGB scart enabled?

Automan.


----------



## Guest

Automan,

I used a local contractor who I trust implicitly rather than Sky In Home. Mine is a 3 storey house so one of their "Health & Safety" engineers couldn't come for 3 weeks anyway.

To answer your questions:-
- He did re-align the dish which was out fractionally
- Input 1 c60% Strength & 70% Quality
- Input 2 c50% Strength & 70% Quality
- Connection is RGB to SCART 1 (Sony KV32FD1) (have tried this on composite which displays the same phenomonen)

My second viewing card had arrived when I returned from a day out late last night so I now have my old (Sony 750) box also linked up (via TiVo). Looking at this as a comparison (in Aux By Pass of course), I can't decide if it is the same or not. If it is it's only on Jimmy Hill's face (currently watching "Jimmy Hill's Sunday Supplement) so I guess I'm looking for something which isn't there. Either way it's definitely much much worse on the Sky+ box.

The only other thought I had was watching the contractor fit the new LNB, he seemed to have some difficulty in getting the connections on during which time the LNB did seem to me to waggle about a lot and he may have pushed it slightly out of it's correct position? I would however expect both boxes to behave the same if this was the case so perhaps this can be discounted.

The final thing is that my TV set has always has always displayed motion artefacts quite badly (no ability to switch from 100Hz to 50Hz) and the contractor thought it may be this but for me that is different.

I appreciate your help. Any further thoughts?

(Edit - Just done some SCART swapping now and the Sky+ is definitely worse).

[This message has been edited by Boney (edited 11-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Boney (edited 11-11-2001).]


----------



## Automan

Simon,
Your dish readings seem a little on the low side to me...

I think the Sony box has a more sensitive Tuner than the ones fitted in Sky+ - How does the Sony's box readings compare fed by the same lnb output?

Have you tried the S-Video of Sky+ linked to your TV?

Good Luck

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

Well I now have has sky+ for a week. I had to work a 24 hour shift on Friday so for the first time could not fully check my planned recordings on both Tivo and sky+. Guess what, my sky+ failed for the first time.
It was set to record third watch (2 eps) and jack and jill on saturday morning. Thirdwatch both failed (no sginal) but it recorded jack and jill ok.
I think i still need to set both tivo and sky+ for unattended recordings at the moment.


----------



## Guest

The dual input tuner on my Sky+ box seems to be less sensitive than the tuner in my old Pace 2nd generation box.

I wanted to run the cabling from the loft space down behind the wall so I did it myself using CT125 cable from RS. Probably overkill and kind of expensive considering I got Sky to do the final hook-up and even had to supply them with the more chunky f-connectors.

I also got them to connect up my old Pace box in another room using the same CT125 cable.

Although my old box reads around 90% signal and 90% quality the Sky+ box reads about 60-70% signal and 80-90% quality. Both boxes are being fed from the Sky+ quad LNB and are all coming through approximately the same lengths of CT125 cable.

I haven't noticed any problems during normal viewing but I do seem to get some initial "blockiness" changing channels on Sky+ that I don't remember getting before. It doesn't happen that often but I don't remember it happening at all with the old box.

Might just be new gadget paranoia though.

-Ronnie


----------



## Guest

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *I think the Sony box has a more sensitive Tuner than the ones fitted in Sky+ - How does the Sony's box readings compare fed by the same lnb output?*


Much stronger but about the same quality 80% strength and 70% quality. (Not the same cable though - in different rooms - may have to try that).


> *Have you tried the S-Video of Sky+ linked to your TV?*


Thanks for the suggestion. Tried it just and if anything the problem shows up as even worse.

My second telly is an old, but still absolutely excellent, B & O set. Just tried that and same thing so at least I know it's not my TV.

'Phoned Sky earlier and will have contact and a visit from an engineer in the week. I've a feeling there is something wrong with the box having read about so many people having 2 or 3 boxes before they get a good one.

Thanks again for you help.

Regards, Simon.


----------



## Automan

As reported by a DigitalSpy forum member after he attended a market research session on Sky+ last night.



> Things that were confirmed as coming soon:
> The ability to make 2 recordings at once
> 30x FF
> The ability to program in a "go-to" time
> The ability to adjust the length of time recording starts before and ends after the actual program
> A manual timer
> Buffering of what's being watched, though as to how far back in time was not clear
> 
> Stuff they showed that was clever but wasn't of much interest:
> Search by actor/director
> Enhanced alphabetical searching
> Screen-grabs in bookmarks
> Showing of record/reminder icons in the EPG
> Automatic recording of "movie of the day"
> Broadcasters including bookmarks in their transmission data
> 
> Also looks like they may well introduce a TiVo style feature that records the kind of things it knows you like to watch
> 
> Probably loads of other stuff I've already forgotten!


I think it's now plain why TiVo boxes are under £200.00

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 11-14-2001).]


----------



## TivoUK

All good stuff!

Did these people ask anything techy, like the reboot of the boxes, noise levels of the boxes (being lower on "new" ones) etc. etc.??

[This message has been edited by TivoUK (edited 11-14-2001).]


----------



## jwestoby

Tut, tut.

Your 'spy' just broke the agreement he signed, I hope that makes him (and anyone involved) very proud.

Now you wonder why Sky don't give out info?

I always give my real name, email etc. I feel that being honourable is a worthy thing - I think it's a pity some don't.


------------------
Jim Westoby


----------



## mrtickle

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *As reported by a DigitalSpy forum member after he attended a market research session on Sky+ last night.
> *


[stuff, including a manual timer. How ironic! That says a lot about how reliable they admit the Sky EPG data is?!. They could have left the timer in the original boxes instead of removing it at launch back in Oct 1998 and made a lot of people very happy]



> *
> I think it's now plain why TiVo boxes are under £200.00
> *


Eh? It's not plain to me - could you spell it out please? Ta









[This message has been edited by mrtickle (edited 11-14-2001).]


----------



## Automan

mrtickle,
Not all channels provide series links due to their hardware not being up to it e.g. CHN4

Thus for repeating items on these channels the manual timer will help.

If all of the above is correct I assume Sky+ boxes will start to use a separate EPG stream with all the extra data e.g. Directors, Actors info.

Re TiVo price.
It's over a year old and has not been updated since day 1. It is slow, clunky, big & ugly, very poor marketing and very low sales and is infamous for chopping the ends of your recordings off.
TiVo may be to smart for what the average uk consumer wants.
It may go the same way as the Beta tape format.

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 11-14-2001).]


----------



## csansbury

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *It may go the same way as the Beta tape format.
> 
> Automan.
> *


It can never go the way of Beta. It is not an exchangable format. Kind of the same way that a cooker cannot go out of date. It does what is does, and always will...'til it dies.


----------



## paulpenny

> Originally posted by Automan:*
> TiVo may be to smart for what the average uk consumer wants.
> It may go the same way as the Beta tape format.
> 
> Automan.*


Automan

It is interesting to read your comments on this forum. I have noted that Sky+ has more than its fair share of problems as reported on the PVR forum at Digital Spy. They seem to rather get lost whenever you post here.

I was under the impression that this was a Tivo forum and, whilst it is interesting to see what other developments there are and how they relate to Tivo, I do get a bit fed up with the "Sky+ is better - Tivo is doomed" attitude that you constantly display in your posts.

I am sure that Sky+ will suit some people more than others and the same will be true of Tivo. It is also true that Tivo may not survive if it cannot differentiate itself sufficiently from other PVR's. I am not sure that it is necessary to take quite so much pleasure in the prospect.

For what it is worth, I would welcome a SkyTivo which combined the functionality of Tivo (both current and promised!) with an onboard Sky twin tuner. That to me would be perfection.

So let's all live together in harmony









------------------
Paul


----------



## jont

Paul

Without wanting to start a Tivo vs. Sky+ war, I think that Automan's comments are valid ...

I too have both and having lived with Tivo for 12 months (with sky digital) and sky+ for a month or so feel that Sky+ will outsell Tivo and will improve their software more quickly ...

It might be worth a thought that Tivo as a company will move more towards selling the pvr software for manufacturers to use - maybe we don't see as much of this in the UK with only one manufacturer ...

Yes Tivo does miss the start/end of programmes and I know it's the broadcasters fault but Joe public won't ...

Yes Sky+ does crash but does get the start/end of programmes and that will be it's main feature until Tivo revise their s'ware ...

I'm going to give my Tivo my old ITV digital box (so that when Sky+ does crash I will still get some programmes !!)


----------



## Automan

I'm afraid like a lot of folks on this forum that we are gadget freaks.

I like to have cutting edge technology gadgets thus have been through every major tape format VCR, VCR LP, VHS, VCC etc. I typically used to purchase a new VCR every year to keep up with the latest features.

Not forgetting Laserdisc (I had one of the first 500 on public sale in the UK), DVD, and Ive been through at least 5 portable minidisc players, 3 x minidisc decks, MP3 Hard disc players, new DTS EX amp and of course TiVo.

TiVo is good but has not changed much from day 1 so it out of fashion (from a gadget freaks point a view, not a sensible person who expects to get years of service out of his kit).

New software / features would of course revitalize my interest in it but until this turns up it will most likely never get out of standby (unless my Sky+ box fails to record one of the programs they both record fails).

And yes Sky+ is far from perfect but still in my books is a gadget - till Sony/TiVo bring out something better









My list of Sky+ problems/bugs is at http://www.hummer.co.uk/skyplus-bugs.html that is still growing to prove I'm not totally biased.

P.S.
I also get rather a lot of mobile phones, maybe a new one every three / six months as they get smarter.

Automan.


----------



## JamesM

I have never understood why people become so defensive about their choice of consumer goods. I remember in the days of Beta v VHS, the arguments became very bitter. It's the same now with Apple v PC, and of course TiVo v SKY+. It's almost as if an attack on the item is taken personally. Why?

I am a TiVo owner, but I can see that SKY+ has several advantages over the original UK pvr. TiVo's marketing is bad (it's getting a bit better, but it is still pathetic) and the wait for the OS upgrade is frustrating. On the other hand, SKY+ has some bugs, and there are still quite a few things that TiVo can do, that are not available on SKY+. 

TiVo suits me better for various reasons, but I can well understand why many people will prefer SKY+, and that fact doesn't bother me at all. In a couple of years both TiVo and SKY+ will seem very old hat, and there will probably be many varieties of better and cheaper PVRs to choose from.

Until then, I agree that we should try and keep the conversation polite and objective (!)


----------



## sammoj

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *I'm afraid like a lot of folks on this forum that we are gadget freaks.
> 
> I like to have cutting edge technology gadgets thus have been through every major tape format VCR, VCR LP, VHS, VCC etc. I typically used to purchase a new VCR every year to keep up with the latest features.
> 
> Not forgetting Laserdisc (I had one of the first 500 on public sale in the UK), DVD, and Ive been through at least 5 portable minidisc players, 3 x minidisc decks, MP3 Hard disc players, new DTS EX amp and of course TiVo.
> 
> TiVo is good but has not changed much from day 1 so it out of fashion (from a gadget freaks point a view, not a sensible person who expects to get years of service out of his kit).
> 
> New software / features would of course revitalize my interest in it but until this turns up it will most likely never get out of standby (unless my Sky+ box fails to record one of the programs they both record fails).
> 
> And yes Sky+ is far from perfect but still in my books is a gadget - till Sony/TiVo bring out something better
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My list of Sky+ problems/bugs is at http://www.hummer.co.uk/skyplus-bugs.html that is still growing to prove I'm not totally biased.
> 
> P.S.
> I also get rather a lot of mobile phones, maybe a new one every three / six months as they get smarter.
> 
> Automan.*


Hey Automan, I assume your not married then




























:;

I thought I was "an early adopter", but I do tend to stick to the first product I buy - I still only have 1 x MP3 player (which I never use) and 1 x portable minidisc (which I rarely use). You put me to shame!!!!


----------



## Automan

> Hey Automan, I assume your not married then


Correct









I also have a Sony memorystick walkman along with my Creative lab Jukebox (upgraded to 20Gb of course) - Not a bad gadget with the latest software which allows it to boot in well under a minute.

I only have one real snag now - no money









Automan.


----------



## kmusgrave

> Originally posted by sammoj:
> *
> Hey Automan, I assume your not married then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :;
> *


I never understand this comment - if you're married (and your wife works) that means you've got even more money to spend on gadgets!









Kevin


----------



## paulpenny

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *mrtickle,
> Not all channels provide series links due to their hardware not being up to it e.g. CHN4
> 
> Thus for repeating items on these channels the manual timer will help.*


Interesting:

Tivo chops the end off BBC recordings - BBC not Tivos fault - therefore you need to use manual record to make sure you don't miss anything.

Big negative for Tivo!!

Sky+ cannot record series links because the program providers don't/can't provide them - program providers not Sky+ fault - therefore needs introduction of manual record facility to "workaround" the problem.

Big positive for Sky+!!

I'm off to look up the definition of "interpretation"









------------------
Paul


----------



## Automan

Paul,
I see your point...

However, the BBC have never shown programs on time and thus it is a known problem to anyone who has used a VCR for the last several years.

That evil Sky+ adds a few minutes on to help cope with it (soon to be adjustable) - TiVo as of yet does not









The Personal Planner "Series Links" however is new ground and only been working (sort of) for a few months.

Both TiVo and Sky+ are good products and BOTH could be better.

Automan.


----------



## paulpenny

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *
> 
> That evil Sky+...
> 
> *


I didn't say that! I like a lot of what Sky do, including Sky+. I just got the impression that you were "enjoying" the prospect of Tivos demise











> *
> 
> Both TiVo and Sky+ are good products and BOTH could be better.
> 
> Automan.*


I couldn't agree more.

Anyway, Truce?









Regards

------------------
Paul


----------



## Guest

How could Automan be looking forward to Tivo's demise if he owns one?


----------



## Automan

Now TiVo & Sony have done a "Global Deal" I'm hoping this will tempt Sony Europe to produce a TiVo box with integrated Sky Digital and may be even a Digital cable variant.

I will then have a new gadget to play with









Product competition is good. Companies with monopolies tend not to care too much about their customers as long as the money keeps rolling in.

Automan.


----------



## paulpenny

Just to add to mix -

Home Cinema Choice has a Sky+ and Tivo head to head in the December issue.

Some good points made and some incorrect comments as always.

And the conclusion is.....









------------------
Paul


----------



## paulpenny

Oh, alright then.

Tivo awarded Best Buy!









------------------
Paul


----------



## Automan

Paul,
Homecinema choice also said this as well http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news.html?itemcode=994690033









Automan.


----------



## ChrisA

Well they obviously meant September 2002!!


----------



## paulpenny

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *Paul,
> Homecinema choice also said this as well
> 
> Automan.*


"Reported" this don't you mean? At a guess I'd say that was what they were told by Tivo.









This month it is just their opinion/evaluation!

------------------
Paul


----------



## dsloper

Just noticed something on my sky+. Not sure if it is a feature, bug, or what, but I cannot find it in the manual.

Ok, the set-up:

Recording Predator2. Also watching the same program live. This is Channel 5. Previously I was watching Sci-Fi. Now, if I pause the live broadcast, it pauses ok. If I press the green button during the pause, pause stops, and the digibox retunes to BBC1. I can replicate this every time I try.

Anyone got any ideas on what this is, or can they replicate it?

Darren


----------



## Automan

Darren,
You must have been using Interative / Text on BBC1

It's a known bug. See item 4 at http://www.hummer.co.uk/skyplus-bugs.html which will show you how to recreate/clear the problem.

It has been reported to Sky









Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 11-18-2001).]


----------



## xneilj

> Originally posted by kmusgrave:
> *I never understand this comment - if you're married (and your wife works) that means you've got even more money to spend on gadgets!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Yeah, but wives/girlfriends have this annoying habit of convincing you that the money would be better spent on some expensive new clothes or something dull rather that a cool new gadget







*ducks*

I remember being conviced I wanted to buy an indoor radio controlled helicopter (how cool, eh?) but I was talked out of it









Neil.

------------------
See the TiVo UK FAQ at http://www.tivoukfaq.com


----------



## Maclynn

An indoor radio controlled helicopter!
I MUST have one. Where are they from and do you think her indoors will notice it divebombing the cat?
Mike.


----------



## sammoj

> Originally posted by kmusgrave:
> * I never understand this comment - if you're married (and your wife works) that means you've got even more money to spend on gadgets!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin*


Yep, but you have to go through a "purchase approval cycle" which does not exist when you are single
















Also, I have been talking to my friends recently about bank accounts and notice how all the married ones have joint accounts and their wive's have their own sole accounts as well! Doing something wrong here...

[This message has been edited by sammoj (edited 11-18-2001).]


----------



## jont

And don't forget to the compensation required for the 'aggro' factor of having another remote control for your new gadget ... or being 'inbetween' upgrades/programming the pronto for the new gadget ... or even worse rebuilding the entire system and cabling and only 'you' knowing what inputs you've set everything to ...


----------



## Automan

Back on thread target some feedback re the noise created by Sky+ in the living room enviroment.
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news.html?itemcode=1005928349

Automan.


----------



## kmusgrave

I just got my Sky+ last week and generally I'm quite pleased with it - although I miss the high fast-forward speed, the skip-back after FF and the replay button of my Tivo! I do like seeing the ends of programmes though







Except - I've lost the end of 2 programmes on BBC so far! I thought I was watching my Tivo for a moment









Kevin


----------



## paulpenny

> Originally posted by kmusgrave:
> *I do like seeing the ends of programmes though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except - I've lost the end of 2 programmes on BBC so far!
> 
> Kevin *


Why have you lost the end of any programmes? Doesn't Sky+ use the EPG and therefore keep to time?

------------------
Paul


----------



## kmusgrave

I thought it did - it also adds 2 minutes padding at the start and end - execept if there are adjoining programmes to record, of course - that would be stupid!

I think perhaps all channels don't update the N&N banner properly.

Kevin


----------



## cyril

> Originally posted by kmusgrave:
> *I thought it did - it also adds 2 minutes padding at the start and end - execept if there are adjoining programmes to record, of course - that would be stupid!
> 
> I think perhaps all channels don't update the N&N banner properly.
> 
> Kevin *


And at least you don't have the problem of ITV running 10 mins late (yet)


----------



## Automan

The Sky+ box uses the EPG schedule times and not the search & scan banner times - I don't know why?

Soon you will be able to adjust the padding time to more than 2 minutes as well as goto a time in a recording.

Automan.


----------



## TivoUK

Automan, I read a report on digitalspy that on the Sky Info (998??) station it says there will be a s\ware update to the plus boxes in December. Have you seen this, can you tell us the details?


----------



## Automan

I've not seen the update info yet on 998 (I suspect it would more likely be on 999 the dreaded info / interactive channel).

998 just shows you how to use Sky+ / and Sky boxes.

I assume the features being added will be some of these which were "leaked" earlier...

Things that were confirmed as coming soon: 
The ability to make 2 recordings at once 
30x FF 
The ability to program in a "go-to" time 
The ability to adjust the length of time recording starts before and ends after the actual program 
A manual timer 
Buffering of what's being watched, though as to how far back in time was not clear 
Stuff they showed that was clever but wasn't of much interest: 
Search by actor/director 
Enhanced alphabetical searching 
Screen-grabs in bookmarks 
Showing of record/reminder icons in the EPG 
Automatic recording of "movie of the day" 
Broadcasters including bookmarks in their transmission data

Also looks like they may well introduce a TiVo style feature that records the kind of things it knows you like to watch

I will check 999 tonight - and of course for all those ITV's in the EPG!

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 11-21-2001).]


----------



## dsloper

According to channel 999, the following updates are due for early december:

1. upto 30sec FF and Rewind speeds
2. Enter the number of minutes you want playback to start from
3. In the Sky+ planner set record on and off without leaving the planner
4. A message will appear if there is a gap in the recording explaining why
5. Holding down FF will skip to the end of a recorded program (as long as there are no additional bookmarks)
6. A banner will appear at the end of playback
7. Backup whilst playing will take you back the the planner.
8. When watching a program this is still recording it's status will stay as recording, not viewed.


----------



## Automan

Cool...
At least one PTR/PVR manufacturer seems to be offering new features for their product and it been on the market less than 3 months!

Not many days now to the first Dolby Digital Movie either...



> 1. upto 30sec FF and Rewind speeds


Warp Drive










> 2. Enter the number of minutes you want playback to start from


Good for skipping the 2 mins of padding at recording start










> 3. In the Sky+ planner set record on and off without leaving the planner


A real time save when marking recordings from the EPG (before when you pressed rec it would take you to the Sky+ planner and then you had to press backup to return to the EPG).










> 4. A message will appear if there is a gap in the recording explaining why


Does not happen very often if ever...


> 5. Holding down FF will skip to the end of a recorded program (as long as there are no additional bookmarks)


Useful incase the BBC are running really late to make sure you have the complete program.


> 6. A banner will appear at the end of playback


This will avoid user confusion thinking the box has got stuck on pause.


> 7. Backup whilst playing will take you back the the planner.


Handy if you want to delete the program quickly or watch another recording.


> 8. When watching a program this is still recording it's status will stay as recording, not viewed.


Minor fix.

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 11-21-2001).]


----------



## Automan

Well we can now record ITV1 with Sky+ and of course ITV2 in a few days (chn226).

Only 3 snags

1. Can't find anything worth recording
2. Tried a couple of soaps and can't see any series links
3. No 16:9 transmissions

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

This is really off Tivo topic, and off this topic, but maybe someone with sky or sky+ (Automan?) can confirm this:

Using the A-Z listings on sky+ i find no reference to a lot of programs. For example, if i goto a-z and try to find psi-factor it's not there, at least under the P's


----------



## Automan

> Using the A-Z listings on sky+ i find no reference to a lot of programs. For example, if i goto a-z and try to find psi-factor it's not there, at least under the P's


I'm not sure when that's on but the A-Z listing only I think lists what's on in the next 24/48hrs (which is a bit naff but keeps it's size down).

Automan.


----------



## Automan

My box for the first time failed to make a recording this afternoon and two recordings had their starts slightly chopped off (I suspect Sky+ time must have been about 2.5 mins in error?)

It made recordings okay after the one at 15:00 but claimed "No Sat Signal" on the main Tuner.

After a reboot all was well again.

Perhaps it did not like 226 being added to the EPG?

Automan.


----------



## Guest

Hi Automan,
My box was in exactly the same state when I got home yesterday evening. Looks like it was a problem cuased by Sky rather than your own box.


----------



## dsloper

Automan:

DO I have to do anything to get my upgraded sky+ box to show the %free correctly. It's been running upgraded for 48hours and is still out.
Thanks
Darren


----------



## Automan

Darren,
I'm afraid not. It seems to be a bug in the software (no laughter please







).

The formula they used to present the numeric free space indicator seems to be hard coded rather than reading real values from the hard disc and thus is only correct for a 40Gb drive.

However the error is only cosmetic as the main recorder logic does seem to recognise correctly different size hard disc.

We can only hope those very nice folks at Sky / Pace will correct the code in a future software release.

I shall correct the error on my website where I say it gets better. It is however okay once the disc is about 25% full.

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

Thanks Automan.

Two points/questions if I may.

1. To test my new disk I have set up a load of recordings. All ok, but after a certain point all new recordings do not have the channel listed on the right of the sky planner. Is this a known bug?

2. On your site you keep mentioning housekeeping! what do you mean by this?

Thanks again in advance

Darren


----------



## OzSat

Had four recordings in my PP.

Wanted to delete the 1st - Sky+ removed the 2nd

Though it was my fault - so double checked I had selected the 1st and selected to delete - it deleted the 2nd (originally the 3rd)

The new 2nd (was 4th) would not play - now channel name had ever appeared and selecting it said "call for assistance" and it auto-deleted.

Now the only entry left in the PP was the original 1st - the only one I wanted to delete.

Also, the disk space was not released by the programmes which should not have been deleted!

added: I then ran housekeeping to get the space back.

[This message has been edited by ozsat (edited 11-24-2001).]


----------



## Automan

> 1. To test my new disk I have set up a load of recordings. All ok, but after a certain point all new recordings do not have the channel listed on the right of the sky planner. Is this a known bug?


Yes, I've seen this problem only once. A cycle of the mains power will get the info back on most of the items.



> 2. On your site you keep mentioning housekeeping! what do you mean by this?


It's from the installer menu but beware it deletes all recordings but recovers lost space due to crashes etc.

This will most likely also cure Ozsat lost space problems but all recordings will be wiped and all events in the future will be deleted. Only the reminders remain as these are held in ram.

Also note at the end of housekeeping the box just reboots with no onscreen warning.

With luck the next s/w release due in the next 10 days or so will fix some of the snags as well as introduce new features.

Automan.


----------



## cjhcjh

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *
> Creative lab Jukebox (upgraded to 20Gb of course) - Not a bad gadget with the latest software which allows it to boot in well under a minute.
> *


O/T for this thread - but how do I upgrade my Creative Lab Jukebox?


----------



## Automan

Jukebox Info...

See
http://www.europe.creative.com/jukebox/user/bboard/thread.asp?thre=9409 
http://www6.tomshardware.com/consumer/00q4/001110/mp3-13.html 
http://www.europe.creative.com/jukebox/user/support/

Which should help...

Automan.


----------



## cyril

Hey Automan, you could have just bought a 20gb drive for £100 and upgraded your Jukebox yourself.

Me, I'm saving up for a 40gb iPod.


----------



## Automan

Cyril,
I went for the "easy" upgrade option....

*Back on the Sky+ Theme....*

I noticed tonight my box was not recording Voyager @ 22:00.

All indicators okay but no record led and the planner said "To Be Recorded"

Only option, cycle power.

And yes I've found a new bug









If you put Sky+ into standby while on a menu playing the EPG music it keeps on pumping out of the opitcal output.

I suppose as they had no EPG music during testing and thus they did not notice.

Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

Only 3 days to go until the Christmas music is added to Music Choice (channel 480)


----------



## OzSat

Christmas is already active - using the 'other channels' option is much quicker!


----------



## kmusgrave

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *
> I noticed tonight my box was not recording Voyager @ 22:00.
> 
> All indicators okay but no record led and the planner said "To Be Recorded"
> 
> Only option, cycle power.
> *


I had this problem this morning (first time). Anyone know what causes it (apart from saying a bug







I mean what sequences of events?

Kevin


----------



## Automan

*Dolby Digital Has Arrived







*
YES! 
Blue Streak is on TV at the moment and it ROCKS!

Need I say more....

A New Era Has Arrived At Last

CHN305 By The Way

Automan.


----------



## Automan

A few picture and sound problems occured in the next Dolby Digital movie "Body Shots" and infact they stopped the film.

Another real shock is the standard between movie music on 305 is also in Dolby Digital with LFE but all the adverts and trailers have no sound even if you reset the optical output to normal mode.

The real shock is after the silent adverts to being surrounded by sound.

It also seems every movie shown today has been in DD including Oklahoma (new version) so perhaps they plan to keep it up.

It seems also that "Rocky & Bullwinkle", "Billy Eliot", "Vertical Limit" and "6th Day" are all going to be on in DD

And YES, Rushmore has just started in DD - The future looks good for Sky and it's big +

Automan.


----------



## Automan

It would seem after the first day of Dolby Digital (which was not glitch free) that Sky have sorted most of the problems out.

The channel always has a Dolby Digital soundtrack and if the movie is in 5.1 thats what you get - I'm just playing back "The Green Mile" with flies buzzing around the room









Other movies so far have only been in 2/0 and I've yet to see my amp autoselect Dolby Surround from the data stream (as a DVD would) - time will tell.

The audio level is however lower than all other channels. Infact when you go to the EPG, it's music is at normal music listening level rather than a quiet background track.

So for all you "gadget freaks" I'm afraid you now have no option now other than to buy a Sky+ to go with your TiVo (or TiVo's)









Automan.


----------



## sammoj

No thanks, stick with the DVD player I think.

John - The ludite!


----------



## guydewdney

i feel that as a tivo user, that its going to die in the UK as sky+ advertises, tivo doesnt (on sky)..... The ads in the magazines are very poor, and don't relly bring up the best features of tivo - oooooh, i really want to spend several hundred pounds on a thing that pauses live TV. until you use it, the pause feature seems pointless! tivo need to pull their thumb from their bum, advertise on national telly, and get the softwareupdates out, not just talk about it.

no customers, no product support. goes the way of betamax.


----------



## sammoj

Prepare to duck when Tivo_Ted fires his rocket! You mentioned the Betamax word!

I agree with you BTW, the sales figures are disappointing but we have no Sky+ numbers to compare it with and that product is still going through the early adopters and Automan gadget freak stage!























(No offence Automan!)


----------



## Automan

TiVo still has a good market in the UK and of course Sky+ only works with Sky Digital.

Granted their advertising campaign has been a little naff but it's difficult to describe what a TiVo box can do. And the average saleperson in Dixons or Comets is not going to help







They don't really know about Sky+ either!
Perhaps TiVo would sell better in the UK if it was just described as VCR+ All the other clever features would them be a pleasant surpise for the consumer when they hook it up.

*Today I also spotted (in error) something else Sky+ can do that TiVo can't.*

You can (sort of) pause while you are making a recording









For example, you press record at the start of Stargate. At the start of the first break you press rec to stop recording. At the end of the break you press record again and so on...

Yes, Sky+ can append recording sessions of the same program into one object. It does take a couple of seconds for the picture/sound to recover at the recording joints but it's not bad.

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

Automan, considering your latest comment re pause and record. why does it not do this when a recordin is interrupted by a reboot? twice now my sky+ has rebooted during a recording, and although it starts recording again once rebooted, it wipes all that was recorded before the reboot. You'd think it would append in the way you described!?


----------



## TivoUK

I got the new Radio Times today (on a Sunday no less!!) and it has a great ad. in the centre for Sky + - Tivo could take a look at it and learn I think. A lot better than anything I have seen from Tivo yet.

Also, does anyone know if the Premiere Widescreen showings of the Star Wars films listed in the RT will be in DD?


----------



## Automan

dsloper,
I must admit that's why I always thought it would erase what it had recorded (as it does when it gets a software update etc).

I can only assume that planned record jobs in the planner always expect no interruptions / pauses.

Perhaps they will change it in a future s/w release?

Re the four page - yes four page add in the centre of next weeks Radio Times (8-14 dec) it quite impresive and of course mentions Dolby Digital a lot and the new ability for 30x fast forward and something called "Multi-Tasking"









Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 12-02-2001).]


----------



## Automan

*Gladiator Is Really Great In 5.1*

If you were just on the edge of buying a Sky+ to go with your TiVo and you have a Dolby Digital system with a spare opitcal in you must buy one.

The Sound and picture must near as good as the DVD with a lower per movie cost.

Order your box now!

P.S.
You don't have to pay the £10.00 a month if you only want the DD and a nice fast Digibox to go with your TiVo.
Infact you can take the 40Gb disc out and add it to your TiVo.

Automan

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 12-02-2001).]


----------



## mrtickle

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *Gladiator Is Really Great In 5.1*


I could have told you that over a year ago, when I bought the DVD with DTS-ES sound..











> The Sound and picture must near as good as the DVD with a lower per movie cost.


Nah, can't be - Sky's bitrates are nowhere near 10Mb/s, they'll never transmit DTS, and they shout over the end credits. Cheaper though if you have time to watch enough movies. My problem is that I haven't even got enough time to watch the DVDs I already own!


----------



## Automan

mrtickle,
I only said "near as good"









I also have "Gladiator" on DVD along with another eight or nine hundred that I also have no time to watch. My last two DVD's of the original Star Trek arrived today and I've yet to watch dvd 36,37 or 38 - let alone 39&40. I'm also about 3 dvd's behind viewing my new Stargate ones









With the two Boxoffice widescreen channels it will allow one to get a pretty good idea of what the dvd of a movie will be like and thus you can then decide if the dvd purchase can be justified or if you think the movie is the kind you want to watch more than once.

Or of course wait till it makes it to 305 and save another £3.00

Perhaps we will get DTS when HDTV starts up using the old ITV Digital channels









Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 12-03-2001).]


----------



## guydewdney

Automan - have you tried putting the sky digital optical audio out conversion in? http://www.sc-elec.demon.co.uk/digibox.htm 
has details. The question is - does this pass the DD signal? 
In your opinion, if you had the above mod, and a tivo, is it worth 300 squid for another PVR?


----------



## mrtickle

Automan has Sky+ which already has an optical digital out, so he doesn't need a conversion. The version of the EPG which the Sky+ box uses has an extra "language" of dolby digital AFAICR. You select this to get the DD stream passed out (to your decoder and amp).

The interesting question at the moment is whether or not the software for the ordinary Sony digiboxes will get the teeny weeny update required to add the DD stream to its sound setup menu. When the Sony boxes were first launched the output was disabled completely, but it was enabled with a software update. No-one knows either way what'll happen this time!


----------



## guydewdney

sure mrtickle - I appreciate that - but being the techno junkie he seems to be I thought I'd ask... Has anyone had the above mod done, and since watched any 5.1 movies - i.e gladiator?
And, whilst on that subject, does the tivo have a similar audio only decoder chip (with the risk of being flamed for asking the same q again...) Or...where can I find a circuit diagram / block diagram of the tivo.
or is this off topic?
Guy


----------



## cyril

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *TiVo still has a good market in the UK and of course SkyToday I also spotted (in error) something else Sky+ can do that TiVo can't.
> 
> You can (sort of) pause while you are making a recording
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For example, you press record at the start of Stargate. At the start of the first break you press rec to stop recording. At the end of the break you press record again and so on...
> *


You CAN (sort of) do this with Tivo too... if you are not using analogue terrestial you can just disconnect the aux scart and then reconnect it later... useful if you want to edit out adverts.

This also gives you an infinite pause when you are watching the live buffer, so you could press pause, disconnect the aux scart, go on holiday, come back and reconnect the aux scart and watch the live buffer weeks later!

Just make sure you get the sad-faced Tivo and 'unable to display' message while disconnected.


----------



## guydewdney

wouldn't it be easier just to turn off the cable / sky box /video player, rather than scablbling round unplugging scart leads.
That is if your setup looks anything like mine (2x vcr, tape player,, dvd, sky box, amp......anything can be recorded to 1 vcr)


----------



## cyril

> Originally posted by guydewdney:
> *wouldn't it be easier just to turn off the cable / sky box /video player, rather than scablbling round unplugging scart leads.
> That is if your setup looks anything like mine (2x vcr, tape player,, dvd, sky box, amp......anything can be recorded to 1 vcr)*


Of course it would! Your box must be off and not in standby for the trick to work in most cases.
However, if you don't have another source, you won't know when the adverts have finished to turn your box back on!

Even better to use an infrared scart switcher.

Incidentally, my setup has about 48 set-top boxes with more spaghetti than Rome!

[This message has been edited by cyril (edited 12-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by cyril (edited 12-03-2001).]


----------



## guydewdney

thats just plain silly. I only ever watch about a dozen channels.
I suppose at leat you could reduce that to 24 sky+ boxes though









Guy


----------



## dsloper

Well, for the first time since having the sky+ box, the old reboots (or switch-offs are back). Thankfully on both occasions so-far I have been watching TV so have noticed them. First was 7:15 thursday, then 7:25 tonight. So either the problem is back, or my box does not like eastenders. hmmm.


----------



## mrtickle

> Originally posted by guydewdney:
> *sure mrtickle - I appreciate that - but being the techno junkie he seems to be I thought I'd ask... Has anyone had the above mod done, and since watched any 5.1 movies - i.e gladiator?
> *


Ah right. In that case, as I understand it, if you do that mod you'd end up with a digibox like the current Sony ones - with a digital out for standard sound. You'd be in the same situation as the Sony box owners - needing an EPG software update so that the DD stream can be selected in the languages menu. Otherwise the only thing that comes out of the digital out is normal stereo sound.











> *
> And, whilst on that subject, does the tivo have a similar audio only decoder chip (with the risk of being flamed for asking the same q again...) Or...where can I find a circuit diagram / block diagram of the tivo.
> or is this off topic?
> *


No idea soz, but I guess it's a bit more on-topic than a Sky+ discussion in a TiVo forum


----------



## paulpenny

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *
> 
> P.S.
> You don't have to pay the £10.00 a month if you only want the DD and a nice fast Digibox to go with your TiVo.
> 
> Automan
> 
> *


Yep, that's what I have done. And boy is it fast!









------------------
Paul


----------



## jont

While we're on the digital audio out ...

Is the digital out 'record' blocked for the digital radio stations ??

I was trying to record 'Im Sorry I Haven't A Clue' on Radio 4 from the optical out on Sky+ to the optical in on my Sony 940 minidisc deck and it wouldn't deliver a signal ... ???

It did however deliver a signal when I did the same thing with the Oasis concert on Box Office a few weeks ago ...

Had to revert back to analogue cables in order to record ... 

Any ideas ?


----------



## Automan

I've never tried to record the radio from Sky+ optical output - I shall try tonight.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

If you have a chance you might want to look at this thread of folks who love their Sky+ boxes http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14776 And after Joan of Arc in DD5.1 I shall try a minidisc recording from a radio channel.

P.S. Galaxy Quest was not bad either but I've got the DTS DVD of that.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

I've now tried to record a few radio channels also with my Sony 940 Minidisc deck and it seems happy to record them all. The channels I tried were 854,851,859 all at 48KHz.

The only one it did not like was 305 "Cannot Copy" - That of course was Dolby Digital 3/2 as it said on my two decoders









Automan.


----------



## TivoUK

Anyone know if the Star Wars films on tomorrow will be in DD???


----------



## Automan

Star Wars IV - A New Hope - No, only in I think they used to call it "stereo"









A couple of nights ago they showed Mumford - The sound was a good two seconds out of sync.

"Three Kings", "Double Jeopardy" & "Any Given Sunday" all seemed however to have healthy DD soundtracks.
"Any Given Sunday" has very good sound and starts with a football with "Wilson" on it - for any castaway fans









It's reported that the DD sysmbol will be in the programs EPG data to indicate multichannel sound. No sign of this so far and perhaps it requires this months feature software update to work.

Also if Sky+ box serial numbers are sequential it would seem at least 156,000 units exist.

Of course only Sky know how many boxes they have switched on.

Automan.


----------



## TivoUK

Beggar!

Fingers crossed for the rest of the Star Wars films on today


----------



## ALanJay

Star Wars in AC-3 but sounds like 2.0 - just dipped into it. There was a trail for the Widescreen Box office movies that had the details that they were in Dolby Digital 5.1 for users of Sky+ boxes with external Dolby 5.1 amlifier / decoders. 

Which is the first reference I have seen to DD 5.1.


----------



## Automan

Alan,
It seemed to me all four movies were only in 2/0 - Prologic 

Do you think that over 150,000 Sky+ boxes could have been sold already?

Automan.


----------



## Automan

"The Bone Collector" was in 5.1 and I see on Monday "The Matrix" is on - I imagine this will also be in 5.1

Also this week the following movies are on...

Summer Of Sam
Message In A Bottle
The Last Starfighter
28 Days
American Beauty
Bicentennial Man
Patch Adams
Jakob the Liar
Jack Frost
Galaxy Quest - Confirmed 5.1
Anna and the King

A Busy Week









Automan.


----------



## ALanJay

> Originally posted by Automan:
> *Alan,
> It seemed to me all four movies were only in 2/0 - Prologic
> *


Most likely - remember that Sky need to ask for the movie to be provided with a 5.1 soundtrack and so the most likely thing is that only movies that they have requested from the distributor in the last few months will have both the stereo and 5.1 soundtracks.



> *
> 
> Do you think that over 150,000 Sky+ boxes could have been sold already?
> 
> Automan.*


I would be surprised - 50,000 sounds like a large number for the last 3 months if all the discussions about a limited number of people being trained to install is true but it could be more 150,000 is about 10,000 a week.


----------



## Automan

I was wrong









"The Matrix", the movie Sky used for weeks for Dolby Digital tests is being transmitted in 2/0

Automan.


----------



## ALanJay

Sky gave a list of what movies are in Dolby Digital 5.1 during December http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=4156 the Matrix wasn't on the list.

FYI Sky send out weekly lists of information about upcoming programmes and they are not mentioning if movies are in DD 5.1 at present - I'll try to find out if they will provide this information.


----------



## dsloper

Automan,

Had a slight variant of your number 15 bug tonight (as per your bug list)

Blue screen of death on all channels, could change channel and search and scan but no picture and sound. Could play all old recordings. The variant was that I set the current program to record, and it did, so I could watch it a few seconds timeshifted. Once that program had finished, a reboot cured.

Strange thing is it happened during eastenders again, the only program that is ever on when my box plays up.


----------



## ALanJay

Managed to get froma contact a sky a list of upcoming movies over the next few months that should be in Dolby 5.1 the licat can be found at: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=4421


----------



## Automan

dsloper,
Yes it seems most problems now are with the ability to watch livetv.

It seems the recording engine (the TiVo like bit) of Sky+ keeps on working but livetv crashes.

I suspect it maybe the interactive rubbish that certain channels pump down you box and I think it effects Sky+ boxes in much the same way as a normal Digibox - they crash / reboot.

Perhaps this months reported s/w upgrade will help matters (the one that's been mentioned on chn 999 and in the Radio Times).

Automan.


----------



## Automan

*The New Software Has Arrived*

Ver 1.22j

1. 30x FF/RW
2. Press Stop to return to Sky+ Planner from playing a recording.
3. Jump To recording end (via bookmark menu).
4. User defined start playing from time (to skip the padding etc).

My box had not got this when I left home this morning but the above items are reported at http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15062

And with luck some "bug fixes"

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

Don't know if the upgrade was done to my box last night, but it was on standby when i got up this morning. So here's hoping.


----------



## Guest

Yep, I got it this morning. 30 xFF is brilliant.

Marc


----------



## dallardice

No manual recording yet? (DigitalSpy seems to be down at the moment so I can't check the thread)

Bit annoying if you're going away for 2 weeks over xmas and new year and you want to record the new year shows....


----------



## ChrisA

I have posted to the digital spy thread on this as well.
Only managed to do this on one recording so far but might be worth keeping an eye on.
30X FF, on last ads on "Girl Cops" recorded last night. Did not work, picture switched repeatedly between a couple of frames. When I went back to 12X or less everything OK. This was repeatable at this point in this recording. Tried other recordings and they seems OK. Has any one noticed this situation with 30X FF?


----------



## Automan

Unhappy - My box has no new software even after giving it a prod.

I hope this does not mean that hardware variant's already exist.

My unit is a 9F200 - my first unit was a 9F300 and now people have 9F600 (if these codes actualy indicate anything).

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

Have the new software, and a couple of things to note that I don;t think are mentioned above:

1. My box had the bug where nearly everytime I FF at high speed, picture would freeze for 20-30 seconds, and then continue to fast forward. I can no longer replicate this so far.

2. It appears you can now also jump to the end of a program by holding down the FF key whilst playing (I Don;t remember being able to do this before).

Darren


----------



## jont

Mine arrived aswell !!

Didn't have much chnace last night to thoroughly play but looks like they may have fixed the audio dropout after ff/rew through programmes ... ??


----------



## Automan

Darren,
Recordings now put a bookmark at the recording end and thus holding down the ff key takes you to the next bookmark - 15secs from recording end.

I still have no new software on my box























Automan (feeling left out).


----------



## Guest

I have sky + and tivo.. tivo is the best. sky + is crap.. there is hardly any thing to do on there. hard to setup season passes! I use it for when i want to record 2 channels...










Also.. I have a sky + box with the new LMB for 150 pounds. if any one wants it. I bought it and when they came to install it they gave me another one haha!


----------



## Automan

philliplewisuk,
You may get a good price for your spare Sky+ on ebay  more than £150.00 I imagine.
A lot of folks would pay that price for a good Digibox plus of course Dolby Digital sound.

I think it a bit hard to say Sky+ is crap but it is very simplistic compared with TiVo and most UK consumers are used to Digiboxes and VCR.

TiVo is maybe just a little to complex for the man on the street to appreciate.

Automan.


----------



## jwestoby

OK, new software.

Fun at 30X, jump back to planner very good (saves mute, guide, 0 then n-down), start position - so-so.

BUT...

WHAT CABBAGE BRAIN TOOK OUT THE 'DELETE CONFIRM' ON UNVIEWED RECORDINGS????????

My other half lost a Millenium because of this - she was not happy.

Sky, if you're listening - put it back. This makes it so dangerous to delete recordings. (I don't leave it to the box as I don't want the aggravation of going through several screens to find what I want.)

Have I made my point?


------------------
Jim Westoby


----------



## mrtickle

Yes, you have. But in the wrong place. Sky are not here and they are not listening - this is a TiVo forum not a Sky+ one!


----------



## jwestoby

Funny I thought this was a Sky+ topic.

Also latter point not true.

When I did the consumer research thing, we spoke to a person from Sky there (I won't say who but high up) who knew of this forum and AutoMan and asked if I were he. (I resisted the temptation to steal the great kudos that AuoMan has and said no.)

Can't remember if he mentioned DigitalSpy and I've never been on there anyway.


------------------
Jim Westoby


----------



## mrtickle

Fair enough - but it's still a Sky+ topic in a TiVo forum. We shouldn't expect Sky to take notice of bug reports for that reason.


----------



## stephen93

I am probably going over old ground but the thread is too long for me to find the answer, I'm definately considering having Sky+ to run along side TiVo, the only thing bugging me is, will TiVo change the channels on Sky+ as it does with TiVo?

Thanks Steve


----------



## Automan

I think I just answered that somewhere else...

Yes it does it's under pace code 20009 or maybe 20010

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Depressed I thought I force my box to try for another update.

After 20 mins on the screen saying "This May Take 10 mins" I thought it was time to panic!

Only really one option - turn off the power (from my new radio controlled remote mains power module).

Turned it back on waited a minute or so and saved! it still worked and also had the new software









No real negatives except that warning is given on delete of an un-viewed recording, which I think is really a backward step (as stated by others).

I also see you can press backup from playing a recording to return to the Sky+ planner and you also get an onscreen banner at recording end rather than it just entering pause.

x3 ff has gone







so you now get x2 x6 x12 x30 so my Pronto remote that I had set up to give me x6 now gives me x12

The goto x minutes and instant 15 seconds from recording end are handy to skip the padding and check you got the full recording.

30x FF also seems to work very well with still a perfect picture and return to real time play.

I note still no indication of DD broadcasts in the epg guide and I shall check to see if any other bugs have been fix that are on my list. I shall add no warning before delete to the list.

Automan.


----------



## guydewdney

http://www.whatvideotv.com/news/index

sky+ 5.1 cutting out......? very short 'news' article, but thought you defectors would be interested!


----------



## Automan

Only problems I've seen (or should I say heard) with Dolby Digital are.

1. Sound Sync - very poor on some movies - Mumford nearly 2 seconds out! Last nights Asterix film was also slightly out.

2. Audio level is low compared with other channels - If you select a none DD channel or go to the EPG get your ear plugs ready!

Other than on the first night where both picture and sound were defective - so much so they stop the movie it's been okay.

One plus point - no more talkovers during the end credits









I don't think their kit can mix the Sky announcer and the Dolby Digital soundtrack together - shame...

However on a plus point no one has yet to report the blue screen of death since their box received the latest software update from Sky.

Also fast forward seems now okay on channels with low data rates (sometimes the picture would freeze when in x12).

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Whoops!
The Asterix movie shown last night on Sky 305 was a French movie dubbed into English 5.1 - I suspect this was actually the problem rather than it being Sky's fault.

Automan.


----------



## GarethR

*TiVo is good but has not changed much from day 1 so it out of fashion (from a gadget freaks point a view, not a sensible person who expects to get years of service out of his kit)*

Of course - but then, gadget freaks are completely unrepresentative of the market as a whole!

As far as Joe Public is concerned, TiVo and Sky+ are as new as each other, and each will have its own appeal. TiVo scores over Sky+ by being cheaper and working with just about any broadcast platform, Sky+ scores over TiVo by being a space-saving one-box decoder/recorder and being able to record two programmes at once - but then again, that's likely to be the kind of functionality that looks great on paper but is rarely, if ever used by real people who aren't TV zombies... unless Sky starts deliberate simultaneous scheduling of its most popular programming to try and drive Sky+ box sales, of course.

[This message has been edited by GarethR (edited 12-17-2001).]


----------



## Automan

GarethR,
Sky+ can't really record two things at once yet...

I think Sky+'s main point is the picture & sound quality - It's as good as you can possibly get from the current Sky Digital platform.

Some of it's other features are nowhere as good as TiVo and I guess they never will.

But for me, Picture and sound quality are paramount.

Tonight Sky is showing Mumford again and surprise, surprise the sound is still well out of sync!

It seems they are aware of this, as chn305 has switched back to 48Khz PCM (after the movie started).

I did also telephone Sky and got to talk to someone within a minute. All they would say is they value all user feedback.

Automan.


----------



## GarethR

*I think Sky+'s main point is the picture & sound quality - It's as good as you can possibly get from the current Sky Digital platform*

But that's very unlikely to be a major concern of the non-gadget-freak mass of the general public.

They really don't see picture quality in the way we do. Even if they did a direct A/B comparison of Sky+ and TiVo they either wouldn't see the difference, or wouldn't care if they could.

Remember, the great mass of the public is still very happy with its misaligned, rusty roof aerials (or even set-top aerials) going into its Matsui TVs with accompanying mono VHS decks (connected via RF, not AV line inputs, natch).

The public buys on price and convenience, and at this precise moment TiVo is the better deal, not least because it works even if you've only got an analogue aerial. It's not out of the question that, if certain cards are played correctly, TiVo could provide a gateway into digital TV for the majority of the public who are adamant they don't want it.


----------



## Guest

Automan - I think you're the man to ask. I have a Sony s760u digibox and don't have the 2.8 EPG. A forced update bore no fruit. Should I be able to get the 2.8 update for my box ? I'm new to SkyDigital so it may be a stupid question. And yes, I know this is a TiVO forum, but I need to get Sky working first !


----------



## Automan

VBaia,
I don't think it availble yet for the 760 only the older 750

Sony boxes always get the updates last.

The best place to check for such things is http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/ who have forums just on Sky & ITV Digital platforms plus many more...

Automan.


----------



## Hunty

Finally got around to buying my Christmas Gadget, last year Tivo this year Sky plus.
It was installed and looks great however when the man came to activate the system he told me the sky computer system is down for a couple of hours, they are upgrading for the Euro!!!.
Just tried sky+ myself the system is down until at least tomorrow. Good start.
Couple of minor points
Do I have to have sky + connected to the telephone line (my original digibox with new £12 card is connected all teh time)
How do I know if I have the latest software EPG sky+1.22.j operating system 1.3.0B2


----------



## Automan

Hunty,
I should ring the Sky+ number and check with them about activating your Sky+ card - sometimes these install engineers infomation is suspect.

I think it's supposed to be ont the phone but if they have already set your old viewing card to work in it I thinks it's not really needed - except pay movies, interactive etc.

Your software is current (last weeks release) and the next new features are not now due till mid Jan.

Enjoy Sky+

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 12-19-2001).]


----------



## Hunty

Thanks for the info, got rid of my telephone extension cable going across the room  
I have tried sky twice now both times same answer system update is taking longer than expected try again tomorrow morning / lunchtime never mind I guess it will be worth it, at least the kids can watch kids channels whilst I watch golf - oh no the seasons just ended!!!


----------



## Automan

My box has now been going for six and a half days on the new software and so far it's been 100%

Also UK Gold have been adding lots more series links...

e.g. Doctor Who, Poldark

Automan.


----------



## Automan

A Digitalspy forum member reports the successful upgrade of his Sky+ with a 120Gb drive!

That's about 70hrs at broadcast quality.

Next, the 160Gb variant...

Automan.


----------



## Guest

Can anyone tell me how TiVo will record from Sky+ please, when Sky+ is recording. I hope this is possibly as my Sky+ is not being installed until Jan,10th,2002?

Thanks Steve


----------



## Hunty

Sky+ is effectively two digiboxes in one. One that Tivo or your remote controls and the other signal is what sky+ records. Therefore yes Tivo can record one sky channel whilst sky+ will record a different sky channel - Magic!


----------



## jont

AFAIK sky+ will pass tivo the programme that it is recording, not another channel unless it is an analogue/ terrestrial channel


----------



## Guest

sorry Jont what does AFAIK mean plse? & I'm not totally with you, does that mean I'll only be able to record analogue on TiVo when Sky+ is recording?


----------



## jont

Sorry Steve

AFAIK - As Far As I Know ...

I think this has been discussed before ... search some of the other posts to this thread ...

I gave up as I was fed up with my tivo not recording due to sky box crashes and gave it the ITV digital box by itself.


----------



## Guest

thanks jont, i use a Digimemo with my Sky box & since it has been connected my box hasn't gone into standby at all, I got it from www.pacelink.co.uk.

p.s. I've re registered because of the new forum on the old one i had 66 post but it's gone back to zero, any ideas?


----------



## dsloper

Sky+ records on it's own tuner. Tivo will record on the 'other tuner' (or the one that you watch normally). You cannot 'watch' sky+ recording tuner as it has no output so to speak. When you playback sky+ recordings, this effectivly disables the normal viewing of sky+.
In short: 1)you can record on sky+ and either the same or different channel on Tivo at the same time. 2)You can watch a Tivo recorded program and record a sky+ program at the same time. 3) You cannot watch a sky+ recording and record with tivo at the same time (you can, but you would record the sky+ playback, not the live TV). Hope this at least helps clarify (I have both and use as above).


----------



## vic

My sky+ digibox has locked up it wont come out of standby even after forcing a software update. Is it possible to reset the bios to default similar to a computer?


----------



## vic

My sky+ digibox has locked up it wont come out of standby even after forcing a software update. Is it possible to reset the bios to default similar to a computer?


----------



## Guest

thanks Disloper, so i will be able to watch a recording on sky+ & record another on sky+ at the same time? but if i try & record on TiVo it will record what i'm watching, have i got it do you think?


----------



## dsloper

spstanley93: that's right


----------



## jameseast

Vic - Have you tried ringing Sky Customer Support?

------------
James East
Early TiVo adopter (October 2000)
Thomson 40hr Basic Model
SkyDigital and ITVdigital


----------



## GarySargent

Thread "Sky+" started by Vic has been merged into this thread (thanks for the excuse to try this new admin feature )


----------



## vic

My sky+ digibox is back to normal. I left it unplugged for 24hrs and it sorted its self out.


----------



## Automan

Problems with Sky+ seem to be greatly reduced with the latest software 1.22j

I have now updated my list of problems and moved the ones that seem to have been resolved to a new page.

Enjoy http://www.hummer.co.uk/skyplus-bugs.html

Automan.


----------



## Automan

After 14 days The Sky+ Planner started to play up forcing me to restart the box.

See http://www.hummer.co.uk/duplicates.htm for details.

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

Pah! Automan you wasted your 1000th post with a Sky+ post?! I'm going to have to dock a few hundred posts off you for that!


----------



## vic

Ive noticed the hard disk in my sky+ digibox runs constantly, even when in standby. Is this normal?


----------



## Automan

> Ive noticed the hard disk in my sky+ Digibox runs constantly, even when in standby. Is this normal?


Vic,
Yes, the hard disk is always spinning just like TiVo and the cooling fan only starts when the internal box temperature reaches 48c (118f)

Gary,
I did not notice that I'd reached 1000! - Still it was on a sky+ negative.

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

Automan: looking at your latest pictures, it appears your free space % looks roughly the same as the disk usage bar. How have you got this to be accurate with an upgraded sky+? 

Darren


----------



## Automan

Darren,
Once 25% of the disc is full it seems okay.

Empty Disc = 25% free
25% full disc = Disc Full
26% full disc = 74% free

With a 60Gig disc once at least 26% of the free space is used up the readings agree till it's filled up.

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

Just got home after the xmas break to find my sky+ locked on the 28th, with all recordings failed from then on. Same day as yours crashed automan


----------



## Hunty

Could somebody please explain why series links are not working or not yet fully available. The season pass of Tivo is one of its more valuable features and I assumed series link would be the same, only found one program that has the link button and that was coronation street a few episodes ago, and it only linked I think the next two.
thanks in advance


----------



## GarySargent

Sky+ relies on the broadcasters to properly supply season link information with their guide data. As you have found this extra information is few and far between. The broadcasters have little to gain - Sky+ is a very small user base.

TiVo on the other hand gets its revenue from supplying such information - the money its subscribers pay goes directly to pay for this value added feature. Except for errors - all regular programmes have a Season Pass available (similar to Sky's Season Link).


----------



## mrtickle

One other common misconception is that the series links are a Sky+ feature. They are not. There is one set of data for Sky and Sky+ and the series links are identical between the two. They have been available, the few that are there, since May 2001 when the personal planner was launched.

If you're a Sky+ owner disappointed at the number of series links, don't be fooled into thinking "it's new, the broadcasters haven't had a chance to implement many links yet". They'd had 8 months so far.


----------



## Hunty

Thanks for the info on Series link didn't really appretiate how it worked. Now starting to wonder why I pay £10 per month extra SKy+ is starting to look just like an updated VCR!


----------



## Automan

Re "Series Links",
I understand some of the broadcaster kit does not understand "Series Links" and until those channels update their kit you will find no series links on those channels.
e.g Sci-fi, CHN4 and many more...

Sky+ will however be getting a manual timer soon, making it even more like an old VCR.

The current "Series Link" format used by Sky+ is also very weak and are often broken by...

1. Data error
2. Next episode not on for more than seven days thus no next episode is found.
3. Clash with another recording can cause them to cancel.

Things may however improve in the next few months with a change to the EPG format just for the Sky+ box system.

P.S.
Enterprise has a "Series Link" on the first episode!

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *Sky+ will however be getting a manual timer soon, making it even more like an old VCR.*


Cool an expensive VCR - probably doesn't even do Videoplus 

No one (hardly) used manual timers for padding on TiVo so I'd find it unlikely everyone on Sky+ would start using them - then again sounds like you ain't got a lot of choice!


----------



## dsloper

Newbug or extension of old: Recording enterprise tonight, and watching it live also. Paused for 7 minutes (phone rang). At next adverts tried to fast forward at 30 speed. Picture hung (seen before) and then jumped back to where i first paused. Could FF at 12 speed, but when clicked play jumped back to where i paused again. Has to go back to live tv. Once recorded, tried to start recording at various times. Always jumped to 11 minutes no matter how late I set start to. No FF at 30 but all other speeds worked ok. Previous and later recordings all work fine!. So,either a new bug or a bad block on the disk!!!


----------



## Paj

Or Sky thought the adverts in their new show were too important for you to miss. (insert sinister music here)


----------



## Automan

Folks are now installing with success 160Gb drives in their Sky+ boxes 

These should yield about 90hrs of broadcast quality recordings.

Still at least my one should have a fluid bearing drive and thus keep nice & quiet - I hope!

Automan.


----------



## Hunty

Automan
Where do I find instructions on upgrading my Sky+, thanks


----------



## Rob Nespor Bellis

> _Originally posted by Hunty _
> *Automan
> Where do I find instructions on upgrading my Sky+, thanks *


[Not Automan ]

I thought it was thus:

1. Remove power
2. Open case
3. Replace drive
4. Close case
5. Apply power

Rgds,

R.


----------



## Automan

Rob is correct, it's that easy...

See http://www.hummer.co.uk/disc-change.htm for some pictures.

Notes
1. After installing disc run housekeeping option from installers menu (if drive is second hand / used on another operating system).
2. t10 security bit needed to get cover off and open drivebay. £9.99 for a set from http://www.screwfix.com or your local maplins.

Automan.


----------



## Hunty

Rob and Automan, oops didn't realise it was that easy! looking to buy the new drive right now
thanks


----------



## stephen93

I have a dilemma, just had Sky+ installed 2 days ago, one problem is that when I'm watching programs recorded on Sky+ & TiVo is recording from Sky, it records what I'm viewing, is there anyway round this I know I could have my old Digibox connected to TiVo but it's in a cupbord now disconnected & I don't want to pay an extra £12 a month & another £25 for installation, anyone any ideas please.

Steve

just had a thought I could just make TiVo use the aerial tuner, but then I don't get widescreen or as good as picture, there must be another way!


----------



## Automan

Steve,
The only satisfactory approach is another Digibox...

I have my old Sony 750 hooked up to TiVo with just the free to air channels.

While I had my box open today (fitting my new Maxtor 4K080K4 drive) I noted a chip with the Dolby logo on.

Thus I think the can the Sony box handle dd 5.1 question can finally be put to bed with the answer - no 

A picture of this chip can be seen at http://www.hummer.co.uk/images/DDCHIP.JPG and the technical spec of the ship can be read at http://www.zoran.com/products/audio/zr38601.asp

So far, my new 80gig drive is A LOT quieter than the previous 4K060H3 

Don't Forget...
U571 on in DD5.1 tonight at 20:00 thanks to the above chip 

Automan.


----------



## stephen93

just thought of a great idea, when watching a Live tv or something on Sky+ & TiVo pops up saying "the recorder want's to change channels etc.," click "stay on this channel" & record whatever TiVo is suggesting on Sky+ obviously you can't if Sky+ is already recording.


----------



## Automan

Beware of the 160Gb upgrade, problems have been reported.
The 120Gb upgrade seems safe.

This morning when I went into my living room and went over to my Sky+ box I thought it was making a little noise.

Panic over, it was my TiVo 
Not that TiVo is noisey but my new fluid bearing drive in Sky+ is so quiet (so far).

I just hope my new Maxtor 4K080K4 keeps okay.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

I took another look at my noisy disc (before Maxtor replace it) and based on the volme name XTV_DSK_STR took me to http://www.nds.com and and this Acrobat document http://www.nds.com/pdfs/XTV_Content_Protection_datasheet.pdf which might explain why the main .str files on a Sky+ disc won't read under a Windows OS

This link may also be of some interest http://www.advanced-television.com/pages/pagesb/intnds.html

Automan.


----------



## Automan

See http://www.whatvideotv.com/testbenc...tbench/SatelliteReceivers/Pace/PaceSky+.shtml

Automan.


----------



## dsloper

Automan, good review but not sure if I agree with their subscription wording of a minimum of a year. I agree you have to still subscribe to sky for a year (or i believe renew when getting sky+), but the £10 per month plus subscription can be cancelled at any time. I know I had it for a month, then cancelled for a month, and now have it again that there are program clashes. So I believe the sky+ part has no minimum term.

Is your experience the same?


----------



## dallardice

Odd that it doesn't mention the absence of Series Links on ITV1 and C4... might come as a surprise to some purchasers based on this review.


----------



## Paul Dundas

To be fair, ITV does now have Series Links (at least on ITV London).

Not that extensive but they're there for things like The Bill, Inspector Morse etc.


----------



## Steve_K

Did anyone see the resport at http://www.wotsat.com/ (the Jan 5th archive) that at most 1000 Sky+ boxes had been sold?

With sales that poor why would Sky develop it further or fix bugs?

steve


----------



## dallardice

> _Originally posted by Paul Dundas _
> *To be fair, ITV does now have Series Links (at least on ITV London).
> *


OK, I stand corrected. Thanks.


----------



## Automan

> Did anyone see the resport at http://www.wotsat.com/ (the Jan 5th archive) that at most 1000 Sky+ boxes had been sold?
> 
> With sales that poor why would Sky develop it further or fix bugs?
> 
> steve


Steve,
The article was in error. Actual figures are between 10 & 20,000 units sold by the end of last November.

Wotsat do have another article on their server which is more accurate 

If Sky hit their target of 100,000 units in one year at £10.00 a month I think they will be pretty happy...

I think that's £1M per month revenue!

I know what Del Trotter would say 

Automan.


----------



## gimble

I thought that the reports that Sky+ had sold only 1,000+ units had been confirmed to be incorrect. Pace quoted that they have sold approx. 100,000 units and I thought that SKY said a while ago that they had passed 50,000. This would mean that already Sky+ owners heavily outnumber Tivo owners.

I can only see Sky+ getting further and furthr ahead. Especially given the following:
(1) Sky+ has better marketing - especially to the millions of existing Sky Digital subscribers. The average man on the street has heard of Sky but Tivo is almost totally unrecognised as a brand.
(2) I think that Sky+ has a "killer app" with its in-built twin digital tuner and Dolby 5.1 output.
(3) Tivo has no price advantage in most high street stores to tip the balance in its favour. This can only get worse as it looks like the main high street vendors are destocking Tivo. 

For Tivo to have been around for well over a year and be on display in hundreds of high street store yet only sell 25,000 units is extremely poor going. I can understand why high street stores want nothing more to do with them and probably any future version of Tivo as well.


----------



## cyril

I personally believe that TiVo will outsell Sky+ in the long run. as their potential market is much bigger.

Sky+ is limited to the number of people who can have Sky dishes installed.

TiVo's lifetime sub makes it much cheaper in the long run as well.

If we get a TiVo with built in Sky digibox, like the States DTivo, this will crush Sky+.

I am very surprised that Sky has not opted to go with this route.
Perhaps Pace made them an offer they could not refuse?


----------



## Automan

> I personally believe that TiVo will outsell Sky+ in the long run. as their potential market is much bigger.


True, Sky only now has 6 million potential customers plus maybe a few more if and when ITV Digital folds.

But Sky have a "Trump Card"! It's called "Marketing"

It's difficult to persuade the average punter to part with £200.00+ for a tin box with two lights on the front.

Where in the UK now can you see a TiVo in operation or even find out what it can really do for you?

I suspect you could make the list on the back of a postage stamp!

Automan.


----------



## dallardice

> _Originally posted by cyril _
> *I personally believe that TiVo will outsell Sky+ in the long run. as their potential market is much bigger.
> 
> Sky+ is limited to the number of people who can have Sky dishes installed.
> *


The problem is that people who haven't yet got Sky are not on the whole that interested in exploiting technology to enhance their TV viewing experience.

Most people have 4 or 5 channels, watch TV when they come in at night and might VCR the odd programme if they're going out (but are more likely not to since they haven't worked out how to stop the clock flashing 00:00).

Tell them that it's worth their while spending £500-ish on a box that sifts the best of TV for them, and they'll probably respond that TV isn't that important to them (or, that there isn't enough "best" to make it worth sifting). Try to get people to understand that they'll stop watching Live TV and instead watch from a pre-recoded list and you might as well be speaking Martian to them.

Yes, TiVo has the larger potential market. But at the moment the people that are buying PVRs are those with Sky, mostly. TiVo can soak up the DTT and DCAB market - but I think PVRs will remain a tough sell to analogue homes for a long time yet.

The market should be big enough for both Sky+ and TiVo in the long run - they serve different markets. In my opinion, the big win for Sky+ customers is letting someone watch live sport without disrupting recordings - but if you don't watch sport or have a small household that's irrelevant - so for me, TiVo works better in a small household where most of the TV viewing is communal and we have similar tastes, which TiVo now understands quite well.

I think TiVo and Sky+ will both end up doing well, assuming that they both have deep enough pockets to stick it out to profitability,


----------



## cyril

Hi, Automan and dallardice.

It's true that Sky's marketing has been more successful, and that there are probably only a few places where you can go to see TiVo in operation in the High Street.

However, TiVo is one of those rare products that once you have used for a while you are (99%) never going to go let go without a fight!

When I said long run, I should probably have said very long run.

Without major marketing and a brand name like Sony, TiVo faces a long struggle to win over the average punter.

But Joe and Jane Bloggs will eventually give in.

DVD has almost killed half the reason to buy a VCR, especially now that players are under the magic £100 mark.

Once analogue terrestial is switched off, Joe Public will finally give up their VCRs for time-shifting, as PVRs will be several times more powerful than they are now and maybe some will be under the £100 mark. 

I think it will take many years, but I believe TiVo has what is needed to be the dominant PVR company in the US and UK.


----------



## cyberjef28

I found it strange that when I went to sky.com to get info on Sky+ (only checking specs, not thinking of buying ) and clicked on the Sky Digital link it brought up info on Sky Digital and TiVo !!

http://www1.sky.com/skycomHome/getsky/

No mention of Sky+ at all. I spent ages looking for a link to Sky+
Hmmmmmmm. I wonder what size the HD is in a Sky+ box. if its capable of 40hrs broadcast quality MPEG then it looks like it has about 100GB disk. Slightly larger than TiVo  SKY+ is still crap though.

Opps, just clicked that link above a few times, the page seems to cycle the banner for TiVo with a banner for Sky+ :S


----------



## Automan

Don't bother trying to record anyhting from Chn5 between 17:30 and 02:00 everyday it comes out looking really bad (all blocky).

Sky & SES are working on the problem and it seems to be related to another channel that transmits during this time on the same transponder.

Automan.


----------



## 1575

Automan

Have you contacted Sky and SES then? I guessed it might be something to do with PCNE who use the same transponder, and posted the same here on 17/01

Barry


----------



## daveh

According to a thread on Sky usenet discussion groups, Sky are stopping Sky+ boxes from being able to record the Premiership.
Is this the thin end of the wedge for the Sky+ box and is is likely (or possible) to happen for Tivo?


----------



## Automan

Barry,
Yes Talked to Sky who actually admit it a problem rather than the infamous "Nobody else has complained". No ETA on a fix however.



> According to a thread on Sky usenet discussion groups, Sky are stopping Sky+ boxes from being able to record the Premiership.
> Is this the thin end of the wedge for the Sky+ box and is is likely (or possible) to happen for Tivo?


They can stop the copy to tape option as per any PPV movie.

If they do that TiVo will also fail to copy to tape but will record it itself with no problem (as should Sky+). TiVo reapplys Macrovision on playback if present when it was making the recording.

Automan.


----------



## daveh

I think the implication of the thread is that the Sky+ will NOT be able to record the Premiership, let alone copy it to tape.


----------



## stephen93

> _Originally posted by daveh _
> *According to a thread on Sky usenet discussion groups, Sky are stopping Sky+ boxes from being able to record the Premiership.
> Is this the thin end of the wedge for the Sky+ box and is is likely (or possible) to happen for Tivo? *


I've not seen the Sky usernet discussion group before, where can I log onto it please?

Steve


----------



## OzSat

> _Originally posted by daveh _
> I think the implication of the thread is that the Sky+ will NOT be able to record the Premiership, let alone copy it to tape.


Yes - you won't be able to 'copy' to tape because Sky+ will NOT let you record the Premiership PPV football in the first place - a big plus for TiVo!

If you try and record PPV football is says "Programme not available" - even if you have paid for the event!

The only way to record it is a live record to a VCR (or TiVo )


----------



## Automan

> The only way to record it is a live record to a VCR (or TiVo )


I'm afraid not. TiVo applies Macrovision back to any source recording that had Macrovision on the source signal.

Thus TiVo will not record it to tape.

Live record also won't work due to Macrovision.

Automan.


----------



## daveh

quote 
**I've not seen the Sky usernet discussion group before, where can I log onto it please**

The Usenet News groups are uk.media.tv.sky and uk.tech.tv.sky.
Access with a News reader rather than a web browser.

As regards recording using VCR or TIVO,
The Premiership is NOT Macrovision encoded according to the usenet thread. One person claims he was told by Sky that he can use a VCR to record the games but not Sky+.


----------



## kmusgrave

Why would anyone want to record a live PPV football match?


----------



## OzSat

As it starts at 2pm - and you can watch it as live when you get in - there are no repeats.

Sky also blocked the WWF Royal Rumble from recording on Sky+ units - this event was also live but at 1am - so many would rather record it!


----------



## OzSat

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *
> 
> I'm afraid not. TiVo applies Macrovision back to any source recording that had Macrovision on the source signal.
> 
> Thus TiVo will not record it to tape.
> 
> Live record also won't work due to Macrovision.
> 
> Automan. *


The football (and wrestling) do not seem to have Macrovision applied


----------



## pr1uk

this a copy of the post from the newsgroup ...........

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have just spoken to Sky + and they inform me that Priemeirship +
management has removed the right to record with Sky + but if I have a VCR I
can record it. I purchased a season ticket

Has anyone been informed of this change, Sky cusomer service even admits
that its a new policy. Why should we not be allowed to record with SKy +
when we can record with VCR (and Tivo for that matter)

I looked in the terms and conditions and it doesn't say that we are not
allowed to record Premiership +
Does anyone else think that this is a ridiculous policy that is just going
to piss off their customers.

I recommend others with Sky + call up Sky and request the following

Either reinstatement of the recording functionality for Premiership +
or Refund of the £10 per month that you pay for the abliity to record.
or Refund of the Sky + box so that you can purchase a VCR which was
recommended by SKY plus customer service so that I can record Football
matches.

I am ready to just cancel the Sky+ and go for Tivo which seems to be able to
do a lot more for cheaper.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i dont have a Sky+ myself and now the thought that they could stop you recording anything if they wanted too well "say no more" .. looks like i made a good choice when i bought a second TiVo instead.


Peter


----------



## pr1uk

i thought there would have been a response from you Sky+ user on this issue as said i dont have one myself but all quite. are you all packing the boxes away.
a friend of mine rang and got the same answer he is flaming. i helped of course telling him this is just the start and they will stop fast forwarding the adds soon after they have sold enough --but there you go that the sort of help-full friend i am. 

the adds are very good shame about the product.

not gloating 'honest' guv.

each to their own my mate is mostly happy with the + box i love my TiVi. we are all different.

Peter


----------



## Automan

I see the thread says "Talked to Sky+" - Who is Sky+?

If they do stop you recording the event with Sky+ system I would have thought they would also turn on "Copy Protect Status" to prevent any system from recording it.

Of course they could have just talked to someone in Sky who knows little or nothing about Sky+ or the actual event.

I hate sports so I don't care 

Sky have however fixed the problem recording Channel 5 

Automan.


----------



## jameseast

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *I see the thread says "Talked to Sky+" - Who is Sky+?*


Nit-picker!!! 



> *
> If they do stop you recording the event with Sky+ system I would have thought they would also turn on "Copy Protect Status" to prevent any system from recording it.*


AFAIK (YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)! ASDA (All Standard Disclaimers Apply)!), the only way Sky can currently restrict programme recording (at least, with the current hardware) is via MacroVision. This might stop your average VCR from recording the programme, but TiVo decodes MacroVision, and later re-adds it on recording to VCR. Thus you can still TiVo a copy-restricted programme! Yay TiVo! 



> *Of course they could have just talked to someone in Sky who knows little or nothing about Sky+ or the actual event.*


Well, that wouldn't be the first time, would it? The vast majority of Sky's call centre staff are, in my experience, woefully under-trained, and, it seems, encouraged to make stuff up on the spot, which is a shame and discredits the hard work done by the minority of their employees that actually do attempt to help customers.



> *I hate sports so I don't care *


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## TivoUK

There is a film coming up on Film Four early next month, so am thinking of paying the 6 quid to sub for a month so I can record it.

Does the Sky + doing anything "clever" when you record from Film Four, apart from possibly adding Macrovision? If I only had the sub for a month, would the Sky + allow me to view it after the Film Four sub had lapsed??


----------



## Automan

> Does the Sky + doing anything "clever" when you record from Film Four, apart from possibly adding Macrovision? If I only had the sub for a month, would the Sky + allow me to view it after the Film Four sub had lapsed??


If you stop subscribing to the channel Sky+ won't let you watch the recording as it checks your subscription at the time of viewing rather than recording.

I don't think Film Four uses MacroVision so the copy to tape (while you still subscribe) should work okay.

Automan.


----------



## chrisrobbo

I believe the argument of whether Tivo will out sell Sky+ or vice versa is irrelevant. My opinion is both will be bit players in a large market in the future. Once Tivo and Sky+ have layed the foundatins for PVR's, and the goverment scrap analogue signals. The general public will be forced into choosing a digital subscriber, whether thats sky+ ITVDigital or whatevers round the block. 

Its almost like the argument between VHS and Betamax. The facts show Betamax was the better version. But blanket marketing proved that best doesn't always survive. 

In about two or three years, all the major electronics companies will have their own version of a PVR. Some with options and gimmicks that the others wount. At present what seems to be SKY+ bonus point is the double RNB. This is something a sky digital subscriber wanting to use a PVR finds irresitable.

But like all technology markets the company who can promote their item the best will win!

So my conclusion is like early video recorders, video cameras, computers, hi-fis etc, the PVR's in a couple of years will barely recognisable to those we are using today. And TIVO will have to battle hard to have a reasonable stake in the market. And Sky with whatever product they are pushing then, maybe SKY++++++! will probale settle for a small part.

If TIVO's service can be judged until know, who can say whether TIVO can fight off future 'Clones' or like IBM they are feeling their way in the blind.


----------



## GarySargent

I think the Betamax vs VHS is a very poor example of a better product loosing. VHS won because rental videos arrived with the latest films on - this was before Sky and their movie channels were on the scene.

This is always held up as an example but is a poor one - people chose VHS because it had a massive benefit over Betamax (rentals), and that was obviously perceived to be of greater benefit than the technical advantages of Betamax.


----------



## chrisrobbo

With all due respect Gary, video rentals was a weapon used in the descruction of betamax. colabaration between VHS VCR makers and film production companies, creating a monopoly. Like when record companies stop recording on Vinyl, the makers of CD players have a huge part in these decisions.

It may not be the best of comparisions, but my point being Betamax was recognised as being better than VHS. So if Tivo is better than Sky+ this doe's not guarantee its future. Tivo needs to do more to gurantee its future, and the future of our machines which we have invested. Some people have invested up to £600 for there Tivo. This including a lifetime subscription. What good is a lifetime subscription if the company is bankrupt in 2 years.


----------



## cyril

> _Originally posted by chrisrobbo _
> *What good is a lifetime subscription if the company is bankrupt in 2 years. *


Well it's £40 cheaper than Sky+ for 2 years


----------



## Automan

Sky & Granda Plus have been adding lots more series links to most of their day time programs

e.g.
Dempsey & Makepiece, Hawaii 50, Alias Smith & Jones, The Beverly Hillbillies, Sliders.

Infact the only daily program I now have to add is "The Pretender" shown every weekday AM on Sky One. This I just add all at once every Monday.

My box records the following with no user intervention, error and never ever the wrong channel 

1. Stargate 6am showings and wednesday first runs
2. Voyager (midnight showings)
3. The Simpsons (three series links to record all weekly showings)
4. Hawaii 50
6. Dempsey & Makepiece
7. The Beverly Hillbillies
8. Alias Smith & Jones
9. Sliders
10. Enterprise
11. Buffy
12. Dark Angel
13. South Park
14. Only Fools & Horses

Granted, the links are nowhere as smart as TiVo season passes but are so quick and easy to use.

I even got a message from someone with a 3year old daughter who can play her recordings on Sky+ with no help!

P.S.
I have a Sky+ negative which is also strange....

Old Style Teletext Subtitles
You can watch a program live with old 888 style subtitles but if you record that program and play it back they don't work.

Digital subtitles of course work okay.

It just seems strange to me that this would occur.

Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

Teletext data is transmitted in a separate datastream which is then converted into VBI picture data by the digibox and added to the top of the picture. I'd expect that this stream doesn't get recorded by Sky+ just as the interactive streams for programmes like Banzai don't get recorded.

I bet you can't set up a recording which will only get new episodes of the Simpsons every odd Sunday


----------



## Automan

If you recall my original 60Gb Sky+ upgrade became noisy.
Since then I replaced it with a 80Gb fluid bearing drive imported from the USA. This is still quiet 

Anyway back on the 15th Jan I sent my noisy Maxtor 4K060H3 back to Maxtor.
Today a Maxtor 4D060K3 arrived to replace it. 
If I'm getting Maxtor drive codes right, this is a fluid drive version 

Also the label on the drive is totally different from any I have seen before and takes up the whole face of the disk. 

The drive was manufactured Dec 2001. 

BTW, A 80Gig drive in Sky+ yeilds just over 45hrs of recording time.

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

Sky+ gets a poor mention in Home Cinema Choice this month (Feb 2002 page 129).

It says "First impressions of the Sky+ box, it must be said, are fantastic" ...

But then goes on to say "But for all the tricks up its sleeve, first impressions don't last forever, and its easy to fall out of love with your Sky+ box if, like mine, the thing only records when it feels like it. In my first week of using the box, I'd say the success rate was around one in two recordings. On the others, when you tried to play back the recording, you simply got a tag saying that the recording failed, with an occasional explanation of why, plus, just to really wind you up a synopsis of the programme - the same one that made you want to record it - just to remind you what a great programme it had failed to record for you."


----------



## andyjenkins

One of the things I've allways thought about the Sky+ vs TiVo war is that Sky+ has 1 major advantage over TiVo. What is it?

Well - what Sky+ is lacking (compared to TiVo) is "software" based. What TiVo is lacking (compared to Sky+) is "hardware" based. 

Now, given that we are all now used to getting software updates that give us more functionality in everyday items (BIOS, Windows updates etc), I can see Sky+ soon (is that word TM Gary?) having the facilities that TiVo owners enjoy or will soon enjoy - wishlists, suggestions et al.

I know many people will state that dual tuner is not for them, but theres a mass market out there who is IS for - and those are the people that would love both systems, but alas can only get one - and no matter what, each that sign up to Sky+ is damaging to TiVo.

TiVo cannot and will not introduce a dual tuner based system for TiVo as we currently know it. But Sky+ can (and probably will) introduce, wishlists, suggestions etc - after all, it's what is making people buy TiVo is'nt it?


----------



## GarySargent

Sky+ is playing catchup though - even if it did get all those features (very unlikely) whos to say TiVo won't be on V4.0 with even more new stuff, and possibly a TiVo Series 2 will have launched. No reason why TiVo can't develop a dual tuner box with NTL or ITV Digital (or Sky even!).

There is no "war". Its not one or the other - how many different VCR's are there?!

Also what use is dual tuners exactly? The whole point of PVR's like TiVo is that it frees you from live TV letting you watch what you want and when you want. Sky+ doesn't achieve that - primarily because of the poor season link. You don't actually need two tuners with TiVo IMHO!


----------



## pauljs

> _Originally posted by GarySargent _
> * people chose VHS because it had a massive benefit over Betamax (rentals), and that was obviously perceived to be of greater benefit than the technical advantages of Betamax. *


Also VHS was licenced to other companies and badge engineered machines were in every shop window including all the rental outlets eg thorn and ferguson (remember them )

Betamax on the other hand was initially just from Sony, who presumably hoped a better product would win and they would control the market

PVR's on the other hand are all compatible with the same media.


----------



## mrtickle

> _Originally posted by andyjenkins _
> *
> Now, given that we are all now used to getting software updates that give us more functionality in everyday items (BIOS, Windows updates etc), I can see Sky+ soon (is that word TM Gary?) having the facilities that TiVo owners enjoy or will soon enjoy - wishlists, suggestions et al.
> *


It took Sky *two and a half years* to add a simple timer to the existing digiboxes. Extrapolate that for the features you think they'll add to Sky+ and see what release date you come up with!



> *
> TiVo cannot and will not introduce a dual tuner based system for TiVo as we currently know it.*


Hmm. Famous last words


----------



## cyril

> _Originally posted by andyjenkins _
> *
> TiVo cannot and will not introduce a dual tuner based system for TiVo as we currently know it. *


Err... there are a whole bunch of manufacturers with dual-tuner TiVos in the US - yes you can record two programmes at once. Sky+ does not have this feature yet.


----------



## Automan

Trouble with magazine articles is the lag from doing the review to getting the magazine in the shop...

Shock of horrors, I had a failed recording!
Wednesday morning sky one - just a purple picture.
However it seems some Sky channels were not broadcasting that night for a while which is most likely why.

I also got a warning message that the schedule had been changed causing the start of a recording to be missed.

It seems Sky had dynamically adjusted "The Pretender" from a 50 min slot to a 60 min slot thus causing Sky+ (still only able to make one recording  ) to miss the start of it's next recording.

Also last night chn305 did not seem to be transmitting in Dolby Digital so I assume they still have problems or are enhancing the system.

I have found that sometimes during the day and morning that I could use the ability to record two things at once.

The box can already do this of course but the user interface does not let you save the paused livetv buffer recording.

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

> _Originally posted by GarySargent _
> But then goes on to say "But for all the tricks up its sleeve, first impressions don't last forever, and its easy to fall out of love with your Sky+ box if, like mine, the thing only records when it feels like it.


*Yet again I forgot that if you pause 'Heartbeat' at the beginning of the programme using Sky+ - you will only get 2-3 minutes recorded.

I then discovered (as if by magic) that TiVo has been left on ITV and so was recording it as live tv by default! *


----------



## Automan

> Yet again I forgot that if you pause 'Heartbeat' at the beginning of the programme using Sky+ - you will only get 2-3 minutes recorded.
> 
> I then discovered (as if by magic) that TiVo has been left on ITV and so was recording it as live tv by default!


I have had the same with TiVo where a program starts, you press record and get about a minute because the program guide data still thinks you are watching the last program which is running late.

The Achilles Heel of all available UK PVRs - Poor EPG data

I must ask AlanJ to ask the Sky+ development team why Sky+ does not use the "Search & Scan" times to control recording start/stop times rather than the more rigid EPG times.

Alan, I hope Sky also buy you lunch 

Automan.


----------



## Automan

It seems some older Dolby Digital chipsets are having problems decoding the latest variant of Dolby Digital which contains Extended Bitstream information.

See http://www.whatvideotv.com/news/fra...atvideotv.com/cgi-bin/displaynews.php?id=1401 and http://www.whatvideotv.com/news/fra...atvideotv.com/cgi-bin/displaynews.php?id=1430

Perhaps this is why we had no DD last night?

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Just trying to watch "The Whole Nine Yards" in 5.1 and it's like being in a church.

I called Sky again who admit they have a problem and suggest going into sound setup and turn off DD.

If this is due to the Extended Bitstream information problem I don't know but my Amp seemed okay with it till yesterday (except the movie mumford which was bad for everyone (lip sysnce very bad)).

Sky don't always say "not heard that problem before"

Automan.


----------



## ALanJay

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *I must ask AlanJ to ask the Sky+ development team why Sky+ does not use the "Search & Scan" times to control recording start/stop times rather than the more rigid EPG times.
> 
> Alan, I hope Sky also buy you lunch
> 
> Automan. *


Well I'll let you know on the lunch 

I think I already know the answer to the search as scan issue and that is that SKY+ just uses the planner and that data stram doesn't include the "now and next" banner info - otherwise they could record radion stations which often carry info in the now and next and not in the planner. I do however think that they should integrate this information.

If there are any buring questions for Sky not already on the list here http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17178 then add your sugestions by Sunday and I'll try to get some answers.


----------



## Automan

I have been trying various timing combinations with my Pronto remote to fast forward at 12x at the press of the right button and return to normal play automatically rewinding a little so none of the action is missed...

This gives you a feature similar to what TiVo does by default but with an adjustment to suit your reaction time.

I have found the following values work well for me...

*FF Hard Key* 
FF Button (x2) 
Delay .4 sec 
FF Button (x6) 
Delay .4 sec 
FF Button (x12)

*Play Hard Key* 
Play Button 
RW Button (x2) 
Delay .4 sec 
RW Button (x6) 
Delay 1.5 sec 
Play button

The 1.5 second value can be adjusted to match your reaction times to noting the program has started.

Automan.


----------



## stephen93

I 've heard Pronto remotes mentioned alot, are they really good? where can you get them from & how much, thanks Steve


----------



## sjp

You should be able to get a 2mb Pronto over the counter from RicherSounds for £149. I didn't have a copy of their web price with but the Kingston branch matched the web price without adding the 10% they should have stuck on.

There are 1mb Prontos available so make sure any price comparisons are like with like.

Just got to switch mine on and figure out it works.  

stuart


----------



## Automan

See http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=6105 for Alan's article re upcoming changes on the Sky+ front...

Good Work Alan.

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

Very interesting article. Dual tuner support now sounds less likely to appear, and no guide data past 7 days?!

Seems season links of channels 4 and 5 will be a while arriving too.

Shame Alan didn't ask about the crashing Sky boxes!


----------



## ALanJay

> _Originally posted by GarySargent _
> *Shame Alan didn't ask about the crashing Sky boxes!  *


Each time we strayed off the specifics of Sky+ it was clear that I was even less likely to get an answer - I did mange to slip a couple of non Sky+ specific questions in.

What did appear is they have learnt that getting the software (in general) to work without bugs is extremly hard and that they will do even more testing than previous before releasing things to the public.


----------



## mrtickle

Excellent report!

S-Video Widescreen Switching - had to laugh at the comment. I assume that this refers to the S-Video-only voltage level changes, rather than line23 WSS which would work from all outputs and is more widely supported?

Finally near the end, the "Direct request to add a programme to the planner from a programme promo" and "One button Subtitles ON/OFF" - I'd imagine that this would mean a software update to standard digiboxes too? In which case they might fix the standby bug at the same time...


----------



## sammoj

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *See http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=6105 for Alan's article re upcoming changes on the Sky+ front...
> 
> Good Work Alan.
> 
> Automan. *


Mmmmm

Sounds like we have the difference between Vauxhall (Sky+) and Jaguar (Tivo) here. Sky+ looks set to remain a fairly basic PVR while Tivo moves on the significant extra function in 2.5.5.

Believe me I should know, just swapped my Jaguar XJ for a Vauxhall Omega  , but still got the Tivo


----------



## ALanJay

> _Originally posted by mrtickle _
> *Excellent report!
> 
> S-Video Widescreen Switching - had to laugh at the comment. I assume that this refers to the S-Video-only voltage level changes, rather than line23 WSS which would work from all outputs and is more widely supported?
> *


Yes - when I mentioned that at someone's request - the technical guy got out his notepad and wrote down what I know about it - but no one can find any references to this as a standard. [Does anyone know if the S-Video switching rules are enshrined in any specifications and standards anywhere? all I have heard is that it is a +5V offset on the C side of the Y/C connection but don't know if that is guarenteed or how it is implemented.]

Accoring to him they already use the line 23 method - can anyone confirm that?



> *
> Finally near the end, the "Direct request to add a programme to the planner from a programme promo" and "One button Subtitles ON/OFF" - I'd imagine that this would mean a software update to standard digiboxes too? In which case they might fix the standby bug at the same time... *


Yes this would work for the standard boxes as well and indeed it might (or might not) fix other things as well. They are certainly thinking very seriously about implementing both of these as they are getting complaints about the subtitles and the "push green to remind/record" within a promotion would be very cool if they can do it correctly.

I suspect it could even be implemented via the standard interactive options "red" to enter interactive then a menu with the current promotional programmes and selet to add to personal planner. Though not nearly as cool as a single button solution.


----------



## GarySargent

Cool - if they do the "press green to record" thing then maybe they'll extend it to say "Sky+ users press green to record, TiVo users press Select"  AFAIK V2.5.5 supports this ability when receiving a special signal from the broadcaster.


----------



## dmchapman

> _Originally posted by GarySargent _
> *Cool - if they do the "press green to record" thing then maybe they'll extend it to say "Sky+ users press green to record, TiVo users press Select"  AFAIK V2.5.5 supports this ability when receiving a special signal from the broadcaster. *


Anyone got an idea on how this is implemented (or at least, how it would be implemented!)?

Something in the non displayed part of the signal (ala line 23 switching)? I can't think what the TiVo could look for that would be possible over all platforms...

Darren - but it would be very cool


----------



## Automan

> Accoring to him they already use the line 23 method - can anyone confirm that?


I don't think it does but I assume it's this technique that TiVo uses (along with scart control voltage as well), my Sony DVD and my JVC S-VHS deck.

*Twin Recording*
If Sky are trying to keep the user interface simple this may be why they are avoiding this feature.
I suspect they are worried about the extra onscreen messages that you would get while you are watching livetv.

The box would have to say you must stop watching this so I can record program x - cancel recording or keep watching this program.

Automan


----------



## kmusgrave

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *
> 
> I
> The box would have to say you must stop watching this so I can record program x - cancel recording or keep watching this program.
> 
> Automan *


Yeah, that would be difficult, wouldn't it. You've just written the spec for them - they just have to write the code, now 

Kevin


----------



## ALanJay

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *
> The box would have to say you must stop watching this so I can record program x - cancel recording or keep watching this program.
> 
> Automan *


This is of course exactly the message that TiVo gives when it comes to record a programme.


----------



## mrtickle

> _Originally posted by dmchapman _
> *
> 
> Anyone got an idea on how this is implemented (or at least, how it would be implemented!)?
> 
> Something in the non displayed part of the signal (ala line 23 switching)? I can't think what the TiVo could look for that would be possible over all platforms...
> 
> *




I'm stumped as well!



> *
> Darren - but it would be very cool  *


Not so sure about how cool it'd be - you'd have to be sat watching live TV! <monty python spam sketch style>Uuuuurrrrggggh!</mpsss> Or at least, you'd have to playback a recording which contained the trailer before the transmission of the programme it was trailing. I can't remember the last time I did either of those


----------



## GarySargent

With Alan's permission (thanks!) I've incorporated some of the information in his Digital Spy article into my TiVo vs Sky+ comparison chart. I've also added more info on the V2.5.5 software for TiVo based on what I know of V2.5 in the US.

http://www.tivoportal.co.uk/TIVOvsSKY.htm


----------



## Automan

I just flicked onto chn305, Austin Powers II, and I noted that my amp now switches to a Dolby Digital Prologic mode (LtRt) rather than just being in Dolby 2/0. 

This is with my amp in AFD (Auto Format Decode) mode by the way. 

Automan.


----------



## MickW

I've just ordered Sky+ and (particularly considering the fact that the disk is always running), I was wondering how hot the box gets when switched on?

I was planning to stack the box in a closed cabinet with video recorder etc. Is this likely to be a problem?

If necessary, I could make sure the box is on top of the stack and/or remove the back of the cabinet.

Any comments/advice on this issue?


----------



## ALanJay

It does get warm but it does have a fan so it should be fine - I have mine in a closed cabinet but do have reasonably ventilation around the box to compensate.


----------



## jameseast

> _Originally posted by MickW _
> *I've just ordered Sky+...*


*RIGHT!!! GET 'IM!!!*


----------



## Automan

> How much ventilation does Sky+ box need?


Sky+ is specified to work in an ambient of up to 40c

The internal fan will start when the internal temperature reaches 48c

In order to ensure a free flow of air around your sky+ set top box, allow at least 10 cm of free space above and on all sides (especially between your Sky+ set top box and your TV).
Do not cover the ventilation slots.

Do not place your Sky+ set top box in an enclosed cabinet with more than one other piece of audio/video equipment e.g. VCR or DVD

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

Recorded Coronation St. on Sky+ only to find that the picture froze during the ad break.

The last 20 minutes of the Sky+ recording was the same - even jumping to a point within the recording gave the same problem.

Luckily, TiVo too was recording the programme - so the family didn't miss anything.

We have so many things go missing from the planner - or things where the end of not recorded on Sky+ that we now only use it when TiVo is busy.

A couple of programmes are set to record on both.

*UPDATE:* Just found that the picture from the ad break is actually frozen onto all live channels - although you can still hear the correct sound.


----------



## Automan

Coronation St - even Sky+ can't handle more than 15 minutes of that 

Perhaps some glitch in the ITV transmission upset Sky+ when they switched from one signal source to another.

Sky+ postings are now getting quite rare... Does this indicate that most users are now quite happy with the product?

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

Who knows - maybe they all switched to TiVo because they kept loosing recordings


----------



## 1575

1. No probs recording the St in Carlton WestCountry Region

2. Automan correct as far as I am concerned, absolutely no problems with Sky+ since the last update, and my 80Gb drive is still quiet!!

3. Tivo - just sitting under the telly looking up at a Sky+ box pinching most of its work.


----------



## dsloper

I'm finding that I am only using sky+ to record program clashes on programs that are not repeated during the week. The rest I use tivo for. I also setup for overnight recordings (such as pretender) in case one or the other goes wonky.


----------



## ALanJay

Overall I think that Sky+ now does what it should have done from day one without any major issues. But I do find that I only use it for BBC1 / 2 and Sky One which use its full "series links" and start stop triggers correctly. When these are implemented by other programmes correctly it will make the product a whole lot more useable.

I find that it is a good compliment to TiVo just as before I had Sky+ I still found occasions to use a video  Sky+ has replaced that


----------



## GarySargent

I've merged back the original Sky+ discussion thread for reference.


----------



## OzSat

Due to a programme clash on TiVo - on Wednesday, CSI on C5 on Saturday was set on Sky+.

Thursday am it had gone and was reentered.

Friday am it had gone and was reentered.

Saturday am it had gone and was reentered.

It recorded OK but is not the first time entries have dropped out of the Sky+ planner.


----------



## GarySargent

A thread on Digital Spy also suggests picture quality playback problems on recordings - which seems bizzare as its supposed to record the digital stream.


----------



## ALanJay

Though if there is a fault on the data stream due to an error in transmission that error would be played back from the recording - if that is the issue as oposed to problems reading back the data.

Don't know for certain one way or the other.


----------



## Paj

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *Sky+ postings are now getting quite rare... Does this indicate that most users are now quite happy with the product?
> *


Maybe they thought it more appropriate to post in ... ooh, I dunno... a Sky+ forum?


----------



## JohnYoung

Quote:-

*Due to a programme clash on TiVo - on Wednesday, CSI on C5 on Saturday was set on Sky+.

Thursday am it had gone and was reentered.

Friday am it had gone and was reentered.

Saturday am it had gone and was reentered.

It recorded OK but is not the first time entries have dropped out of the Sky+ planner. *

This happens every week on CSI and Law & Order. I presume it is something to do with the way C5 deal with the EPG as it only happens on this one channel.


----------



## OzSat

Sky+ is so unreliable that we only use it to record stuff that we would like recorded as a second choice when TiVo is busy.

Lost scheduled recordings and lost endings.

As the EPG is not real time with some channels - the live buffer is often useless to delay a programme by a few minutes if it starts early. Sky+ live buffer is halted when it thinks a programme has ended.


----------



## ALanJay

I have found Sky+ to be perfectly releiable on channels that deal with the EPG data correctly which basically means BBC channels and Sky channels. I havn't really tried any others with any degree of consistency as the lack of series links make it a pain at the best of times.


----------



## chrisrobbo

Had sky+ for three months now, and

Never missed a program, or its start or finish.
Never has trouble turning over to the right channel.
Noticed a lot of new series links being created, even on ITV

And the biggest pro of all is the fact that I can turn over whenever I want, even if its tapeing something. Without, like some subsribers do, having mutliple tivos with multiple digi boxes. What a pain in the arse that would be


----------



## OzSat

The start/end time problem happens - mainly on ITV which seemed to have an attempt at keeping the EPG right but then gave up. BBC are best with their EPG data.

We've missed about two programmes which just vanished - now we know they just vanish we check again on the actual day. This is mainly a C4/C5 problem.

And TiVo lets me record PPV football etc. to watch when I'm ready, or to replay as I wish.


----------



## GarySargent

Your "pain in the arse" of two TiVo's couldn't be further from the truth! Its great - I would never go back to one TiVo now.

I can record two channels at once (you can't do that on Sky+), I have twice the disc capacity, twice the number of suggestions being recorded.

My Pronto makes control of the two TiVo's a breeze - I have buttons to flip between each TiVo and these issue IR commands to each TiVo to activate one, and put the other into VCR bypass as appopriate.

I have both NTL Digital and ITV Digital - the best of both worlds instead of paying for any one platform twice.

I've recently noticed MANY programmes running four minutes late - all caught by my five minutes padding. Don't know how you're coping with your poxy 2 mins padding


----------



## chrisrobbo

Gary,

If you wish to fill your house with ugly looking silver boxes everywhere then thats your lookout. At least your not as bad as some who have upto ten?

Presuming at least one of your digital boxes is free to air, you extremely limited as to what your second recording is when you need to record two programs.

As for the five minute delay. All I can say is its never happened to me. 

I am a tivo fan, and it is more of versatile package than sky+, but the good points for Sky+ seem to skyward in this forum. And I was just pointing out them. I just can't stand sky bashing. Either you subscribe or you don't. Having been a subscriber to all digital packages availiable to me, ie ITV Digital, Telewest Digital and Sky Digitial. Sky Digital far surpasses any of these. Yes you do have to pay, but in the end you get what you pay for. 

Personally it beggars belief wht Sky even allow the other mention digital packages access to there own channels. If I was the decision maker I would tell NTL, Telewest and ITVDigital to whistle for its channels, then watch a laugh as they go the wall.


----------



## GarySargent

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The boxes can easily be hidden away with a remote extender to control them if you wish.

Plus you save lots on heating bills by having multiple boxes


----------



## cwaring

> _Originally posted by chrisrobbo _
> *Personally it beggars belief wht Sky even allow the other mention digital packages access to there own channels. If I was the decision maker I would tell NTL, Telewest and ITVDigital to whistle for its channels, then watch a laugh as they go the wall. *


Then, of course, Flextech could tell $ky to "go whistle" for it's channels. Say goodby to:

Bravo, Living, Trouble, Challenge TV, UK Gold, UK Gold 2, UK Style, UK Horizons, UK Drama and PlayUK.


----------



## cyril

> _Originally posted by GarySargent _
> *
> 
> Plus you save lots on heating bills by having multiple boxes  *


If it wernt for the fact that my flatmates like their rooms to be hotter than a sauna, I would have zero heating bills!


----------



## cyril

> _Originally posted by chrisrobbo _
> *
> 
> And the biggest pro of all is the fact that I can turn over whenever I want, even if its tapeing something. Without, like some subsribers do, having mutliple tivos with multiple digi boxes. What a pain in the arse that would be *


Its not a pain at all if you have one per channel 
In fact it is almost as easy as changing channels on your remote.
You want to watch BBC1, TiVO 1 has it.
BBC2 TiVo 2
ITV TiVO 3
C4 TiVo 4
Watch Sky One or other pay channels TiVo 9 has it

Etc...
Much easier as all your programs are stored seperately.

It would be very hard to do this with 10 Sky+ boxes!
As the cost would be astronomical!

I sometimes watch 3 programmes at the same time, while browsing the web as well. Of course only one TiVo outputs sound at any given time.


----------



## callum

As a new Tivo owner (who already has Sky+) you may interested to read my thoughts on both systems at this other PVR forum.

I must say I am a happy new Tivo owner.


----------



## Automan

That's what they claim...

http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/uknews/-bsb_pvr.htm

P.S.
That gives them a monthly revenue from Sky+ of £1,000,000.00 and £12,000,000.00 a year.

Automan.


----------



## [email protected]

Bothered!


----------



## sxb

The quote

*There are challenges in selling the PVR product, including price (which Sullivan said is the top barrier to purchase) and developing a marketing message. "You point to a PVR and you really can't explain it in one sentence," Sullivan said. *

pretty much says it with regard to marketing of PVRs though.

The hard part is persuading folk to buy the first time - AFTER that they sell themselves


----------



## iankb

I was going to add Sky+ as a mirror sub under the special loyalty scheme. Unfortunately, I've only had Sky for 6 months (ex ITVDigital) and the minimum period for the Sky+ offer is 12 months. Given the substantial difference in cost, there is no way I will do it now. Maybe their loyalty schemes just make people feel ripped-off if they aren't able to participate.

Ian.


----------



## ALanJay

I seem to remember that the 100,000 was the target for the end of their financial year which is sometime the middle of next year. But they certainly announced this as a target over the summer.


----------



## Automan

It could be but the financial year but the article does say...



> and is expected to end 2002 with 100,000 users


Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

This really belongs in the Chit-chat forum.


----------



## OzSat

Or the Sky+ thread


----------



## mrtickle

indeed


----------



## Automan

> _Originally posted by mrtickle _
> *This really belongs in the Chit-chat forum. *


I was wondering that but I thought it may be of interest that how Sky+ with a limited market (7 million possible consumers) with a product that not so smart have likely sold twice the number units TiVo have in half the time.

Is it all down to marketing?

Automan.


----------



## iankb

Because Sky+ is seen as an alternative method to get satellite whereas, with TiVo, you have to get the digibox as well. If Sky tuners had been built into the TiVo, it would probably have sold more than Sky+.

Ian.


----------



## OzSat

> _Originally posted by TwiceNightly in SPECIAL THREAD: TiVo Programme Listings/Schedule Errors_
> *TiVo now needs a lot of looking after, one of it's main appeals to me was the Season Pass which you could just set and forget about. This doesn't seem to be happening any more.
> 
> Now that Sky+ has a buffer, manual recording, 2 channel recording (coming soon I know) I am seriously thinking of switching over and I'm sure a lot of other people must be doing the same. Sort it out TiVo/Tribune/whoever! *


The Sky+ buffer only works when you activate it - and you can not change channel until you cancel it.

Also, the live buffer is tied to a programme - so if you start the live buffer at 7.50pm during Coronation Street - it will stop itself at 8pm!

Finally, TiVo does need checking that you recordings are in the ToDo list - but with Sky+ you must remember to check that your recordings are still requested on the day they are due. They often go missing


----------



## rservis

I thought I would let you know, Sky sent my dad a letter saying he could have sky + for £199.00 with no monthly fee. He asked me my opinon and I told him to go with the Tivo, it is just easier for everything and he liked the idea that I could upgrade it to 120gb drive. Only problem is where can I buy one, I did get mine from the local comet but they have now sold their remaining stock. I did see the unbeatable offer but that now has finished.

any ideas??

Regards

Roy


----------



## sanderton

Comet have it on their web site (www.comet.co.uk).

I had that Sky+ letter - it's only "no monthly fee" if you take out a mirror sub at £15 a month!


----------



## mrtickle

Yep. In fact it is NOT "no monthly fee" at all - it's a discount package on the two fees (Sky+ and mirror), with many strings attached.


----------



## Automan

If you want to see what you are missing click here http://www1.sky.com/products/skyplus/Sky+_PVR1.pdf 

(6meg Acrobat document)

Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

Gotta love that - they're trying to claim it's a PVR


----------



## kmusgrave

So what's a PVR?


----------



## cwaring

> _Originally posted by kmusgrave _
> *So what's a PVR? *


I presume that what mrticle meant was that Sky+ only records the programme you explicitly tell it to; ie it's a 'dumb' machine. Whereas Tivo is a "Personal" Video (huh?) recorder as it has features such as "Wishlists" and "Suggestions"; ie you get not only what you asked for but other stuff you may like also. Or something...


----------



## iankb

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *If you want to see what you are missing click here http://www1.sky.com/products/skyplus/Sky+_PVR1.pdf*


Just looked. I think you've just sold a few more TiVo's, Automan. 

Ian.


----------



## mrtickle

cwaring is along the right lines. IMHO a PVR should have functions such as wishlists, keyword/actor searching, suggestions, season passes etc. Sky+ has series links but no other PVR functions. Anyone can build a hard disc recorder, but that doesn't make it a PVR nomatter how often they try to claim it is one.


----------



## kmusgrave

It was actually a serious question - "What is a PVR?" I really want to see a definition and have never seen a satisfactory one. LOts of people seem to assume (incorrectly) that a video (correct word, cwaring!) recorder which uses a hard disk is a PVR.

What makes Tivo a PVR, for example? i.e we know its a VR (as is a VCR) but what makes it Personal?


----------



## GarySargent

I'd say a PVR is a TV recording device that needs very little user operation to record the programmes that you like (after initial setup obviously), and allows timeshifting operations.


----------



## kmusgrave

Like Sky+, you mean?  I was wondering wher they got the "Personal" from?


----------



## TheBear

> _Originally posted by iankb _
> *Because Sky+ is seen as an alternative method to get satellite whereas, with TiVo, you have to get the digibox as well. If Sky tuners had been built into the TiVo, it would probably have sold more than Sky+.
> *


But Tivo could be seen as an alternative method to get analogue terrestrial TV.

As there are far more terrestrial analogue viewers than Sky viewers you'd expect Tivo to outsell Sky+...as we know it hasn't.

Tivo/Thomson *cannot* be pleased with how few have been sold compared to Sky+.


----------



## iankb

But if Sky are responsible for the marketing of _both_ products, then surely that is an indication of the bias of Sky's marketing.

Ian.


----------



## cwaring

> _Originally posted by iankb _
> *But if Sky are responsible for the marketing of both products, then surely that is an indication of the bias of Sky's marketing.*


But they're not! Sky only do Tivo CS, don't they?

Disclaimer: ICBW!


----------



## iankb

You obviously missed the recent thread that shows the content of the TiVo UK sales and marketing team.

See this page on the TiVo UK site ...

http://www.tivo.co.uk/tivo_inc/management.asp?frames=yes

Ian.


----------



## cwaring

Either that or a bad short-term memory


----------



## iankb

I know the feeling. Or at least I think I do. 

Ian.


----------



## benlast

Oddly enough... back to the topic at hand. I happened to be in the office of the person in Sky who is responsible for Sky+ (don't ask why, I can't tell you). He had a working Sky+ box (as you'd expect) plus a working Thomson Tivo *and* a Tivo Series 2 (or at least the box). Knew what he was talking about too.

Veering back off topic, I was also talking to a girl who does customer service for TiVo up in the Scottish callcentre. She said they are a dedicated team, not part of the general Sky support and have around 20 TiVos set up for them to check stuff on. At the time I was talking to her, most of them had no programme guide data to speak of because some clown had unplugged the phone line...

Odd what you come across, isn't it?


----------



## iankb

Maybe Sky are also handling the marketing of the TiVo to the manufacturers. Unlikely, but would explain the presence of the TiVo 2 model. Presumably you couldn't see (or tell) who made it.

Ian.


----------



## Automan

Perhaps a new company will imerge in the UK

*SkyVo* 

Automan.


----------



## jameseast

Nah, *TiVoPlus*!


----------



## mrtickle

Better TiVoky


----------



## Richardr

There were 38,000 Sky+ subscribers as at 30 September, the end of Sky's first quarter in their financial year (announced today).


----------



## sanderton

Really? So still a very similar number to TiVo. That has to be disappointing for them doesn't it?


----------



## TheBear

> _Originally posted by sanderton _
> *Really? So still a very similar number to TiVo. That has to be disappointing for them doesn't it? *


It is, however, effectively selling twice as fast as Tivo!


----------



## sanderton

With TiVo's non-marketing and non-availablilty, "twice as fast" for a product with huge in store presence, TV ads and direct mail campaigns galore is close on disaster!

(Also suggests that conventional marketing for a PVR is hitting a brick wall. Maybe TiVo ain't so dumb in not spending on ads!)


----------



## Automan

Also of course TiVo is be suitable for nearly every home in the UK's TV connection.

Sky+ as said thousands of times before only works on the Sky Digital platform.

Thus
38,000 sky+ boxes / 6.8 million sky customers (in one year)
30,000 Tivo boxes / Nearly every house & flat in uk (in two years)

Of course some of the sky+ customers will be new customers rather than upgrades from normal non PVR digiboxes.

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

I feel sorry for all those Sky+ users who know no better - just as I feel sorry for people who buy PC's from PcWorld etc.


----------



## mrtickle

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *
> Thus
> 38,000 sky+ boxes / 6.8 million sky customers (in one year)
> 30,000 Tivo boxes / Nearly every house & flat in uk (in two years)
> *


Alternatively (using figures from TiVo CS this week who said it was closer to 40,000 TiVos):
38,000 sky+ boxes / saturation advertising on Sky which would cost millions if they charged themselves the going rates, huge high street presence with kickbacks and commision for sales staff, very aggressive marketing deals and telephone deals to Sky customers
40,000 Tivo boxes / very little advertising, small high street presence, mainly word of mouth marketing

The fact that Sky with all that backing have only managed a lowly 38,000 indicates that marketing isn't the be all and end all that many of us have thought it was. PVRs *are* difficult to sell! TiVo have done far better than Sky IMHO with the odds stacked against them.


----------



## TheBear

Sky sell on average over 2700 Sky+ units per month.

Tivo sell on average far less than 1500 units per month.

Sky+ outsells Tivo by almost 2:1 so I wouldn't say their figures are "lowly"-they are selling almost twice as fast as their nearest competition!

(Above figures based on 35K Tivo subscribers and 38K Sky+ purchasers over the corresponding time periods products have been available.)


----------



## iankb

I have to say that I'm really impressed that TiVo can sell as much as 50% of what Sky can sell with no real marketing, against the cost of Sky+ marketing. It shows how much better a product the TiVo really is. 

Ian.


----------



## mrtickle

Yes they are lowly wrt the different marketing for each one, that is the point, please read my whole post in context.


----------



## mrtickle

> _Originally posted by iankb _
> *I have to say that I'm really impressed that TiVo can sell as much as 50% of what Sky can sell with no real marketing, against the cost of Sky+ marketing. It shows how much better a product the TiVo really is.
> 
> Ian. *


Quite.


----------



## TheBear

> _Originally posted by iankb _
> *I have to say that I'm really impressed that TiVo can sell as much as 50% of what Sky can sell with no real marketing, against the cost of Sky+ marketing. *


What has that got to do with the price of fish?

The bottom line is Sky+ is selling twice as fast. It can't bode well for the future of Tivo in the UK, can it?


----------



## iankb

What has the success of the Sky+ have to do directly with the success of the TiVo?

Being half as successful as Sky is not being unsuccessful if Sky are stll successful and/or TiVo's marketing costs are a lot less.

Ian.


----------



## sanderton

> _Originally posted by TheBear _
> *What has that got to do with the price of fish?
> 
> The bottom line is Sky+ is selling twice as fast. It can't bode well for the future of Tivo in the UK, can it? *


I see no reason why there can't be multiple competing PVR platforms in the UK. In which case, what has the number of Sky+s sold got to do with the price of fish?


----------



## mrtickle

> _Originally posted by TheBear _
> *What has that got to do with the price of fish?
> *


The fact that - since you insist on continuing this bogus comparison between the two - with the massive difference in marketing budgets Sky+ hasn't done very well in relative terms.



> *
> The bottom line is Sky+ is selling twice as fast.
> *


Nope. The bottom line is that Sky's massive advertising campaign hasn't made much of a difference.



> *
> It can't bode well for the future of Tivo in the UK, can it? *


Sigh. You really aren't reading the posts, are you?


----------



## GarethR

I do wonder why TheBear bothers to post here any more - he can't see any possible future for TiVo, so I don't understand why he doesn't just buy a Sky+, leave this forum and be done with it!


----------



## TheBear

> _Originally posted by GarethR _
> *I do wonder why TheBear bothers to post here any more - he can't see any possible future for TiVo, *


Firstly, because I have one.

Secondly, I don't think Tivo will fail but have come to believe that the Thomson Tivo will cease to be sold in the UK unless something is done SOON. Without any other manufacturers announcing UK product it's going to leave an awkward gap and marketing will have to start again from scratch.

At the end of the day if everyone sits here pretending everything is OK (When it clearly isn't) then we've got a problem.

Far better, IMHO, to assess the situation rationally, realise there is something amiss, seek answers and then see about putting thing right.

I am a big fan of tivo and it's technology and would love to see the underdog win in the UK. By being critical of the current way Tivo is sold hopefully someone will do something before it's too late. If we all sit here and keep quiet then nothing will get done.

My four-penneth.


----------



## iankb

The danger with this approach is that it will just scare people off and make your own prophecy come true. 

Hopefully the present interest will stir somebody up to fill the gap, or announce their intentions. If demand is killed by persistent adverse comments, then there is no doubt that the TiVo will die.

Ian.


----------



## GarethR

*I am a big fan of tivo and it's technology and would love to see the underdog win in the UK*

But TiVo isn't the underdog. With almost zero advertising there are as many TiVo users (possibly slightly more) as there are Sky+ users, and BOTH TiVo and Sky+ are more-or-less equally unknown to the majority of consumers in this country.

And in any event, you have to look at a larger user base than simply Sky Digital subscribers, whose numbers are still dwarfed by the people who don't have any form of multichannel TV. Obsess about Sky+ if you must, but TiVo has a massively bigger potential market.

*By being critical of the current way Tivo is sold hopefully someone will do something before it's too late. If we all sit here and keep quiet then nothing will get done*

I've been a member of this forum for almost a year now, and I don't recall a time when people *weren't* critical of the current way TiVo is sold.

I'm quite certain that TiVo UK and US are fully aware of our opinions about their marketing shortcomings. Constant negative postings containing prognostications of inevitable doom won't help anything, and they get tiresome very quickly.


----------



## kmusgrave

> _Originally posted by GarethR _
> *Constant negative postings containing prognostications of inevitable doom won't help anything, and they get tiresome very quickly. *


As do quotes from people who keep pretending there is nothing wrong, when clearly there is


----------



## kmusgrave

> _Originally posted by GarethR _
> *Constant negative postings containing prognostications of inevitable doom won't help anything, and they get tiresome very quickly. *


As do quotes from people who keep pretending there is nothing wrong, when clearly there is  Lets face it, Tivo don't give a **** about the UK. (please prove me wrong on that one someone!)


----------



## sanderton

> _Originally posted by kmusgrave _
> *As do quotes from people who keep pretending there is nothing wrong, when clearly there is  Lets face it, Tivo don't give a **** about the UK. (please prove me wrong on that one someone!) *


I agree, they have bigger fish to fry in the much larger US market. I just hope TiVo keeps a toehold here until such time as the PVR market worldwide is big enough for a Sony or Panasonic to launch a TiVo in the UK - maybe in two years time.

Meantime, I think Thomson TiVos will drift off sale completely after Xmas, but the subscription service will continue as is. then it will eb a amtter of battening down the hatches until the Japanes ride to the rescue in 2004.

All products of my fevered imagination, of course.


----------



## kmusgrave

> _Originally posted by sanderton _
> * I just hope TiVo keeps a toehold here until such time as the PVR market worldwide is big enough for a Sony or Panasonic to launch a TiVo in the UK - maybe in two years time.
> *


That really is the answer, IMHO - Thomson has not got a very good reputation (and are not that well known) in this country, so I think it would have sold a lot more if they had chosen a better-known manufacturer.


----------



## Automan

See http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/t/45503/ds.html for details

Got to go to work 

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

The live buffer is now present - with options of off, 5, 15, 30 and 60 minutes.

Technically, enabling this option (or even using the old live pause) means that you are using a dual recording system.


----------



## Automan

Seems Amstrad (who I understand make parts of the current Sky+ box for Pace) may market their own model soon...

See http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=10161 for info.

A freeview box also may be on the horizon!

I understand a couple of ex Pace Directors work for Amstrad and thus lost of work heads their way.

Pace no longer manufacture any STB's. All are made to their specs by others.

Automan.


----------



## Milhouse

It's curious how Amstrad are interested in manufacturing a Sky+ box, which would place them in direct competion with the existing box. If Amstrad were interested in getting into the PVR market, why not go with a TiVo box? This would give them access to a potentially larger market with no competition.

I don't know what the terms of the Sky+ licence are - perhaps they get a larger slice of the retail cost of the unit (all of it?) and there may be no requirement for a hardware subsidy. If Amstrad want to get into the PVR market but haven't managed to sign up a manufacturing deal with TiVo does this mean the TiVo terms are unfavourable or that TiVo aren't trying hard enough to find a manufacturer? Of course, TiVo may already have a manufacturer in the pipeline... heck, I can dream!!


----------



## Mark Hewitt

> _Originally posted by GarethR _
> *BOTH TiVo and Sky+ are more-or-less equally unknown to the majority of consumers in this country.
> *


Then how come when I go into Dixons, Currys, Comet etc I see large displays with Sky+ boxes and posters and leaflets explaining what it does. And nobody in the shop has even heard of Tivo!


----------



## Automan

All paying Sky £10.00 a month!

65,000 is also about twice the amount of UK TiVo subcribers.

Automan.


----------



## SpankySpanky

And Westlife are the biggest grossing pop act in the UK as well. Mad country, TBH....


  


SS


----------



## GarySargent

LOL - So Sky plan to completely kill Sky+ now!....

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds10685.html

EDIT: Maybe not - when I first read it I thought it was saying that Sky were going to remove the BBC's guide data - but it actually just says they may loose their top slot on channels 101 and 102.


----------



## Automan

It seems the new styled more compact Sky+ box is starting to be installed by Sky engineers.

Same features (at the moment) but it's white in colour and is the same size as the original Pace Digibox.

See http://www.plusworld.co.uk/News.htm for pictures.

Automan.


----------



## ALanJay

According the to the folk at Sky http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds10804.html there is no technical difference with the new box. It does take advantage of smaller bits to make it a much smaller box (pretty much the same size as the standard digibox) but it will be running the same software as the current box and all boxes will get the next software at the same time.

I also get the feeling that there is no plan to differenciate the functionality between the two boxes.


----------



## GarySargent

White - erm.... Well that will match with everything then, not!

Who on earth makes these decisions.


----------



## larryez

The standard price of Sky+ has been reduced to £199
But the £10 monthly sub still remains.


----------



## iankb

Do you know if they're still doing the loyalty package for reduced subscriptions when adding Sky+ to another digibox? Only my Sky subscription has come to the end of its first year, and I haven't received the offer through the post.

Ian.


----------



## gswhite

> _Originally posted by iankb _
> *Do you know if they're still doing the loyalty package for reduced subscriptions when adding Sky+ to another digibox? Only my Sky subscription has come to the end of its first year, and I haven't received the offer through the post.
> 
> Ian. *


Yes they are providing you have been with them over a year


----------



## madkenny

> _Originally posted by larryez _
> *The standard price of Sky+ has been reduced to £199
> But the £10 monthly sub still remains. *


AFAIK, Sky are still under contract to Pace to charge the £10 sub. Once the contract expires Sky will have the *option* of reducting the sub or dropping it altogether.


----------



## GarySargent

> _Originally posted by larryez _
> *The standard price of Sky+ has been reduced to £199
> But the £10 monthly sub still remains. *


Standard price remains the same £249 - this is a special offer: "Offer ends 31 May 2003"


----------



## mrtickle

> _Originally posted by madkenny _
> *AFAIK, Sky are still under contract to Pace to charge the £10 sub. Once the contract expires Sky will have the *option* of reducting the sub or dropping it altogether. *


No, they have the option of doing so now - and in fact they are already offering some customers £0/month if they are on the most expensive subscription package ("World", I beleive).

All it means is that Sky make a loss or make up the money elsewhere which they still have to pay to Pace. Like Tivo does with the lifetime subscription, they would calculate how long they expect the hardware to last.


----------



## Automan

Boxes have updated to
osv 1.3.0BA
EPG sky+ 1.25.d

No real apparent changes other than faster channel changes if you have the LIveTV buffer offer option selected.

Some changes also to Series links

Automan.


----------



## ALanJay

Details of what the update contains under the bonnet can be found http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds10926.html


----------



## iankb

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *Some changes also to Series links*


When I read about the changes for Series Links, I was amazed to see what they _didn't_ do before these changes. No wonder they were flakey, and how much better the TiVo has always been for series.

Ian.


----------



## Automan

Seems a deal has been struct and you will be able to purchase a Amstrad branded Sky+ box 

See http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displaynews.php?id=3733 for details.

Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

More likely - soon when you order Sky+ you won't get a choice between Amstrad and Pace, and you won't find out what you're getting until the day the installer arrives (if she bothers to turn up), etc - just like the standard service!


----------



## SpankySpanky

> _Originally posted by iankb _
> *Do you know if they're still doing the loyalty package for reduced subscriptions when adding Sky+ to another digibox? Only my Sky subscription has come to the end of its first year, and I haven't received the offer through the post.
> 
> Ian. *


They've sent me a 'special offer' deal on Sky+. £199 for Sky+ plus £30 installation, then £15/mth for both Sky+ and the 'mirror' sub. Actually, as a Sky 'hater' (I use their product because there is no option unless I go back to bloody terrestial only) I think this seems like a very good deal, prolly 'cos I'm on the full package so I was already considering whether to get a mirror sub for £15/mth. The fact I can now have Sky+ as well for the same deal (albeit with a £229 up front fee) makes it very attractive. I've got until 27/4/03 to decided (but I bet that date gets extended!). Decisions, decisions....

SS


----------



## kmusgrave

> _Originally posted by mrtickle _
> *More likely - soon when you order Sky+ you won't get a choice between Amstrad and Pace, and you won't find out what you're getting until the day the installer arrives (if she bothers to turn up), etc - just like the standard service! *


Can't you buy them in the shops any more? When I got mine I just went into a shop, paid the money (for the box only) and walked out with it. I arranged the installation myself.


----------



## OzSat

My local Comet had a Pace Sky+ for sale last week.


----------



## iankb

I doubt that you'll be able to get the loyalty package through a dealer. I got my digibox through a £1(?) deal and was supplied with a new silver Grundig. When that failed, I got an older-model black Grundig as a replacement. What is worse, now that my warranty has expired, I would be expected to pay for repairs on what was probably a reconditioned box that I had no choice about.

Ian.


----------



## OzSat

> _Originally posted by SpankySpanky _
> * I've got until 27/4/03 to decided (but I bet that date gets extended!).*


 How did you go?


----------



## Automan

Seems Sky may reduce the sub for Sky+ also talk of a broadband add-on box

See http://logofreetv.org/render.asp?mode=campaign_news_read&i=123 for info.

1st reported at http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/t/73163/ds.html

Automan.


----------



## Automan

http://www.plusworld.co.uk/ reports that chn 5 at last have series links 

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Seems not only do 5 have series links but they even have ones to bridge the news gaps in movies!

Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

They are two years late in providing series links on the Sky EPG. I don't see that as anything to boast about.


----------



## jwestoby

Well, after having it for nearly two years, I've given up my (80gb) Sky+. The box now lies languishing, unpowered, in the corner.

Overall it wasn't worth forking out £10 every month. The programs are normally repeated and I'll probably end up getting a FreeView with a HDD if I do find many conflicts.

In a way I'm sorry. Not only did it work flawlessly but when I did ring customer services they were always VERY helpful. If they had made a lifetime sub I would have jumped on it!

As it is the [fully expanded] TiVo (and my VCR!!!) are now my TV agents.


----------



## cwaring

FYI there's another interesting "Tivo and Sky+" debate over at DS 
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/t/69655/ds.html


----------



## Automan

At http://skydigital.mediabullet.co.uk/ they claim the £10.00 charge will be dropped (this has also been reported at other locations), more Sky+ boxes to pick from and Dual Record launch sometime this August.

If the £10.00 charge is dropped I assume exisiting Sky customers will be even more tempted to replace their old boxes with new fast dual record PVR's and dump their old vcr's...

Automan.


----------



## SpankySpanky

The question to consider is do Sky REALLY want Sky+ to become a truly mass market product? This sort of move would just about guarantee that it would. Then you've got a scenario where Sky's advertisers would surely be moaning very loudly about their ads being wizzed through! Unless, of course, the dumping of the £10/mth sub coincided with Sky actually initiating it's 'anti ad wizz through' software that is allegedly buried somewhere in each box....


 


SS


----------



## pgogborn

> _Originally posted by SpankySpanky _
> *The question to consider is do Sky REALLY want Sky+ to become a truly mass market product? *


I think there could be a very finely balanced debate going on within Sky.

On one hand, the £10 subscription provides a healthy recurring revenue - and it is recurring revenue that is the fundamental business plan of Sky.

On the other hand, there is increasing UK competition from, and UK consumer awareness of, hard drive recorders with "free" EPGs. Offering a "subscription free" Sky+ box might been seen in the same way as subsidised Digiboxes and sports rights have been seen in the past - an effective way to capture satellite viewers.


----------



## TheBear

I imagine the box will be sub free on condition that you subscribe to a top tier pacakge.


----------



## ALanJay

That is efectively what they already offer 

If you are on the top sub and have a mirror subscription you get your Sky+ sub for free. 

As others have said Sky like recurring revenue as this is on of the elements that their financial results are measured on by analysts.

The interesting thing that potentially happens is when the cost of producing a Sky+ box is not significantly more than the standard current box (one would assume that the cost of the standard box will also fall).

Sky+ is a premium product and finding the correct pricing for it within the Sky financial model is obvioulsy an interesting excercise as Sky have been trying many different ideas out on selected subscribers.

It would be nice if they did reduce or remove the monthly charge. Maybe they will extend the idea that they already have with there not being a charge for people taking a mirror subscription to a reduced charge (say £5.00) for those on the top teir not taking a mirror subscription.

Anyway this is all very speculative. At least Sky have repeatedly told me that they will not forget their long time subscribers.


----------



## pgogborn

According to the latest Sky annual results, at 30 June 2003, the Sky+ had 105,000 subscribers, exceeding the target of 100,000.

Also according to the annual results, "The early evidence is that Sky+ customers demonstrate encouraging levels of customer loyalty and a high propensity to subscribe to top-tier packages. In addition, at 30 June 2003, there were 165,000 subscribers to the Extra Digibox representing 111,000 net additions during the year. Approximately 57% of Sky+ subscribers are also Extra Digibox subscribers." That customer profile may influence how the Sky+ will be marketed in the future. >
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/lse/bsy.uk/Q4_2003_FINAL.pdf

I can not find any mention of the TiVo customer support contract.


----------



## healeydave

I don't think there would be any mention of TiVo in the Sky's reports unless its comes under "sublet".

I was of the opinion that TiVo just rents call center space from Sky and that is the limit of their involvement!

I could be wrong.

Dave.


----------



## pgogborn

> _Originally posted by healeydave _
> *I don't think there would be any mention of TiVo in the Sky's reports unless its comes under "sublet" *


Sorry, I was being too oblique.

A previous quarter report mentioned that the TiVo customer support contract with Sky expires on 30th September 2003. A poll on this forum expressed a preference for TiVo Inc renewing the contract with Sky >
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79906&goto=nextoldest

As the expiry of the contract was specifically mentioned in a previous report, I was wondering if the absence of a mention in this report was an indication that the contract has not (yet) been renewed.

It also seems to be common currency that Sky are going to begin a new marketing push for the Sky+ in September. I wonder if the sales contract with TiVo (also due for expiry on 30th September) placed constraints on how TiVo could market their Sky+.


----------



## Automan

Not a bad slice of change for virtually doing nothing....

Automan.

P.S. On another new laptop - this one seems to work


----------



## SpankySpanky

> _Originally posted by pgogborn _
> * I wonder if the sales contract with TiVo (also due for expiry on 30th September) placed constraints on how TiVo could market their Sky+. *


Freudian slip, maybe?? Perhaps the wording should be how Sky could market their Tivo clone?? I wonder if it could be proved whether Sky had even thought of a PVR before Tivo came to their attention??



SS


----------



## pgogborn

> _Originally posted by SpankySpanky _
> *Freudian slip, maybe?? Perhaps the wording should be how Sky could market their Tivo clone?? *


Ouch, another pgogborn stuff up. I think the heat must be frying some of my circuits.

I was trying to remember how much press advertising I had seen for the Sky+ (as opposed to point of sale advertising and Sky TV advertising). I was wondering if the contract between TiVo Inc and Sky for the sales promotion of the TiVo contained a clause saying something like, "the press advertising for the Sky+ must not exceed that of the TiVo during the period of the contract".


----------



## ALanJay

How about that when you are selling a product to your core audience - ie they already have your product this is an upgrade the most sensible place to put your advertising is on Sky's TV channels


----------



## Paj

News International papers were dripping with Sky+ advertising under the guise of editorial on the run up to and following its launch.


----------



## stitches

Latest info in the digiguide forum seems to more certain that there will be dual recording mid August 2003 and that the monthly fee will be dropped in October. It just seems to get better and better for Sky+.....


----------



## iankb

Shame they can't do something about the crap EPG (series links, persistent database of series data, etc). They certainly made enough out of subs to have funded development.

Ian.


----------



## sanderton

That "monthly fee dropped" bit is very speculative, and I would be amazed if it happens beyond people on the full £456 a year package. Even then thay might just get a discount.


----------



## OzSat

I personally think that the dropping of the fee would be dependent on being a Sky World subscriber (top tier).

It may be they just introduce their 'special offer' as a 'normal charge' in that Extra Subscribers do not pay a Sky+ £10 sub.


----------



## xxxx

Yet another report of the impending demise of the Sky+ £10 fee.

<http://www.thedvdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218459>


----------



## mrtickle

Pah. You can't view that unless you are registered!


----------



## smiffy

Try this one

http://thedvdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217039

Not much in there really, just quotes from Digital Spy and more guessing about Sky+ and no monthly Subs...


----------



## kitschcamp

You can't view threads on that forum without being a member.


----------



## xxxx

*Pah. You can't view that unless you are registered! *

Sorry about that. I didn't realise. Actually that site is worth registering for, if only for the bargains page.

Anyway, the quote was from some chap who had bought a Sky+ recently and was told by Sky that his sub would be scrapped on October 1.


----------



## mrtickle

righto, thanks.


----------



## TivoUK

Is there and email address at Sky I can use to report problems with the Sky+ series link?

I set the Sky+ to record "E! NEW LIVE" on Sky250 at mid-night each day, and it has a series link on it I use.

However, after it has recorded the mid-night showing, it will add the repeat showing at 7pm to the list of shows to be recorded, which I have to remove from the list.

Also, if this 7pm recording clashes with something already scheduled, it does not warn me and allows the clash to exist.

Starting to get annoying now....


----------



## healeydave

I have a solution for you.

Its called TiVo.

(traitor! ;-)

note the smiley, i am having a laugh of-course, have to be careful, the trouble with text, no expression, expected to get flamed if i didn't include this disclaimer! hehehe.


----------



## iankb

The problems with series links on Sky+ is why most people prefer TiVo. Sky+ relies on the quality of their standard EPG data, as supplied by the broadcasters. Although they take your monthly £10, they do not use any of it on modifying the broadcasters' data, and the inbuilt logic for handling series links is very crude.

The DigitalSpy forums are more useful for Sky+ queries.

Ian.


----------



## TivoUK

But I have a Tivo also! - hence my name  

Alas my Tivo is in need a new hard drives, the updated ones I put in a year or so ago are on the way out - get the famous stuttering problems.

As to the quality of the Tivo listings data, do not get me started


----------



## ALanJay

> _Originally posted by TivoUK _
> *Is there and email address at Sky I can use to report problems with the Sky+ series link?
> *


Not tha I know of. As others have said ask on the www.digitalspy.co.uk forums as there are a lot of knowledgable Sky+ people on that site.

As far as people know EPG and and series link data is inserted by the broadcaster into the Sky system. Sky themselves have no control over the EPG and series links as the EPG is open to all the broadcasters. There are rules for creating links to stop broadcasters abusing the system but any valid implementation is down to the stations themselves and the computerised systems that do playout and EPG generation.

So the best person to complain to is the channel that you have a problem with. Telling the channel you use series links might make them realise the use of them.


----------



## OzSat

> _Originally posted by TivoUK _
> *Is there and email address at Sky I can use to report problems with the Sky+ series link?
> 
> I set the Sky+ to record "E! NEW LIVE" on Sky250 at mid-night each day, and it has a series link on it I use.
> 
> However, after it has recorded the mid-night showing, it will add the repeat showing at 7pm to the list of shows to be recorded, which I have to remove from the list.
> 
> Also, if this 7pm recording clashes with something already scheduled, it does not warn me and allows the clash to exist.
> 
> Starting to get annoying now....  *


 You can set a priority for clashes by using the KEEP button. So if you programmes clash - the KEEP one wins - otherwise it is first in wins (I think).

But TiVo is the best way around the problem.


----------



## Brownedger

> _Originally posted by TivoUK _
> *But I have a Tivo also! - hence my name
> 
> Alas my Tivo is in need a new hard drives, the updated ones I put in a year or so ago are on the way out - get the famous stuttering problems.
> 
> As to the quality of the Tivo listings data, do not get me started  *


If you have a Tivo as well you should know that it's just as bad at recording E! NEWS except instead of getting 12am & 7pm you get 6am & 1pm aswell (the latter two are not even broadcast, and yes it has been reported on the listings thread).

In fact on Tivo the whole E! Entertaiment listings are over the place, with progs in the wrong slots and holes in the schedules.


----------



## Automan

As reported at plusworld Sky are sinking £20Million into pushing Sky+

How much did Tivo UK spend?

http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=bsy.uk&script=415&layout=0&item_id=458599

Automan.


----------



## sanderton

Is that £20m of cash or £20m-worth of free ads on Sky One and in the Sky Magazine?


----------



## Automan

> _Originally posted by sanderton _
> *Is that £20m of cash or £20m-worth of free ads on Sky One and in the Sky Magazine? *


They are seeking fresh customers as well as upgrades for exitisting customers.



> The new marketing drive represents the first time that BSkyB has promoted the benefits of Sky+ outside its existing customer base. Above-the-line elements of the multi-faceted campaign will include 40'' and 10'' spots on terrestrial and Sky channels, posters and radio sponsorship of Virgin's breakfast show. In addition, Sky+ will be promoted through direct mail, Sky's own promotional airtime, the Sky customer magazine, in-store marketing and on a new, dedicated website http://www.skyplus.co.uk


Automan.


----------



## Automan

It seems those nice people at Disney are now transmitting in Anamorphic Widescreen and according to the EPG in Dolby Digital.

Mary Poppins is on today and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang next weekend in 16:9 and maybe 5.1 sound.

No Dolby Digital at the moment but I suspect their are having problems (as are Sky with chn 302 and the multiple starts).

Automan.


----------



## Criftin2000

Has any one noticed noise on there phone line since having Sky+ (PVR2 box) installed


----------



## Automan

> _Originally posted by Criftin2000 _
> *Has any one noticed noise on there phone line since having Sky+ (PVR2 box) installed *


No,
Have you checked it is your Sky+ box causing the problem by unplugging the phone cord from the back?

Other thing to check is the number of devices plugged into your phone line (REN value total should not exceed 4 without fitting a REN booster - I have one fitted).

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

> _Originally posted by Criftin2000 _
> *Has any one noticed noise on there phone line since having Sky+ (PVR2 box) installed *


 No - I have Sky+, Sky and a ONdigital box in the same line - and not noticed anything at all.


----------



## Criftin2000

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *No,
> Have you checked it is your Sky+ box causing the problem by unplugging the phone cord from the back?
> 
> Automan. *


Yes its definitely the Sky+ box, plugged straight in to the incoming BT line and disconnect all other wiring noise only on phone when Sky plugged in. Sky engineer came to replace box on Sat new box had same problem.

CS came up with a great idea get a second line or just unplug the box when you want to use the phone, sorry but you will have to live with it.

I find Sky CS very uncooperative, just wanted to know if any one else has same prob before I get back on to them.

Criftin2000


----------



## Automan

Criftin2000,
When they tried the replacement box did they use a new cable between the BT socket and the Sky+ box or the cable from the previous box?

Also was the phone socket Sky+ is plugged into installed by a BT Engineer?

I also assume your Sky+ box passes the phone line detected test?

I've done another search on this problem and have found no matches.

Automan.


----------



## Criftin2000

I tried a replacement cable before engineer came and the first thing he checked was the modem lead.

The line was installed by a BT engineer and the box does detect the line connected, Sky CS gave me the impression they knew PVR2 boxes had this prob.

Criftin2000


----------



## kitschcamp

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *No Dolby Digital at the moment but I suspect their are having problems (as are Sky with chn 302 and the multiple starts).
> *


And 301, and 303... Slight understatement. I think that sound that is dropping out every few seconds and then stops altogether a major failing of DD at the moment.


----------



## Automan

However the sound vision sync are so far out I can't even judge it!

Also like the Sky DD movie channels, the audio level is so much lower so if you select another channel your ear drums will explode!

EDIT:
They keep now changing from DD to Surround and back and now the voices are back in sync - sounds like Leonard Nimoy!

Automan


----------



## starfire

Looks like Dual Record has gone live for Sky+ users now.


----------



## sanderton

Seems to have fried a few people's recordings and even boxes too!


----------



## kitschcamp

Yeah, not at all impressed. Not impressed at all. Steaming pile of budgy droppings.


----------



## OzSat

Is it that those who have had problems have upgraded their discs?

My box went into standby this morning and previous recordings are OK on a standard V1 machine.


----------



## Azrikam

Frankly, I'd be shocked if it wasn't full of bugs. Sky generally needs 2 or 3 releases on a new feature to work out the kinks. (one would think they'd do some testing before release, but...  )

Still, if they ever get the bugs worked out, Sky+ may start looking like a viable alternative to TiVo.


----------



## pahunt

> _Originally posted by Azrikam _
> *Still, if they ever get the bugs worked out, Sky+ may start looking like a viable alternative to TiVo. *


As far as I'm concerned the bugs aren't the reason that Sky+ isn't a viable alternative the real reason is the "missing" features like wishlists and season passes that actually work correctly.


----------



## Azrikam

Yeah, but dual recording, 5.1 sound, and better picture quality goes a long way towards making up for those weaknesses.

I'm not switching yet, but I'm definitely keeping an eye on the evolution of Sky+.


----------



## kitschcamp

5.1 sound that doesn't keep dropping out would be a good feature 

At the moment, it's no replacement for Tivo.


----------



## kitschcamp

> _Originally posted by ozsat _
> *Is it that those who have had problems have upgraded their discs?
> *


Mine was a standard V1 machine, and yes I'd replaced the disc as it failed a month or so ago. That could be the reason, I suppose.


----------



## pahunt

> _Originally posted by Azrikam _
> *Yeah, but dual recording, 5.1 sound, and better picture quality goes a long way towards making up for those weaknesses.
> 
> I'm not switching yet, but I'm definitely keeping an eye on the evolution of Sky+. *


Each to their own but I'll live with the inferior picture quality and sound if it means I can have wishlists. I'm really not sure I could survive without them anymore


----------



## Azrikam

So will I... for now.


----------



## sjp

my upgraded V2 box survived fine...


----------



## Automan

For most users 5.1 sound on the five channels that have it is now okay.

Features with new software
1. Dual Record 
2. Time remaining indication during playback (press select during playback)
3. Series links will still record future episodes if you cancel the next recording or it clashes with the other two things you are trying to record at the same time (4 week limit on break to next episode).
4. Macrocode update of some of the chips (this is what may have caused problems for a few of the 110,000 Sky+ in use).
5. Audio output on copy to VCR (V2 boxes only)

Not fixed
1. Numeric free space indicator (for non standard drive)
2. Still only 20 fav channels

Automan.


----------



## mrtickle

Question - does item 3 mean that a Sky series link for "The Sky At Night" would now work for the first time? Or Crimewatch? Or for the 6-month gap bewteen the end of one season of a drama and the start of the next?


----------



## Automan

> _Originally posted by mrtickle _
> *Question - does item 3 mean that a Sky series link for "The Sky At Night" would now work for the first time? Or Crimewatch? Or for the 6-month gap bewteen the end of one season of a drama and the start of the next? *


*If* the BBC put a series link on the Sky at Night it should auto record every month.

Crimewatch would not as the hidden series link marker would autodelete five months before the next episode.

The same would apply to things like Stargate & Enterprise.
Twelve months would have been a smarter value.

Automan.


----------



## sammoj

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *For most users 5.1 sound on the five channels that have it is now okay.
> 
> Features with new software
> 1. Dual Record
> 2. Time remaining indication during playback (press select during playback)
> 3. Series links will still record future episodes if you cancel the next recording or it clashes with the other two things you are trying to record at the same time (4 week limit on break to next episode).
> 4. Macrocode update of some of the chips (this is what may have caused problems for a few of the 110,000 Sky+ in use).
> 5. Audio output on copy to VCR (V2 boxes only)
> 
> Not fixed
> 1. Numeric free space indicator (for non standard drive)
> 2. Still only 20 fav channels
> 
> Automan. *


Think I just found one you missed Automan. My Sky+ now has the ability to save the rewind buffer program to disk. Ie: if you decided to record a program after watching 20 mins it will save from the start. I am sure it did not used to do that?

John

PS: Sorry should have said "my sons Sky+" as I gave up on it as a bad job  and went back to Tivo


----------



## wozwebs

That's right the buffer can now be recorded as TiVo can but this time if you set the buffer for 1 hour in your settings you can record up to an hour. Even better than TiVo's 30 mins.

Seriously thinking about switching now. Have ordered normal Sky to be installed on Friday at my new house (moving in tomorrow) but may phone up and change it to Sky+.

Had a play with it at my mates house earlier and asked him if he had checked to see if dual record was working. Set BBC 1 and ITV1 to record, both did, whilst we checked a previous recording. If TiVo could do that then it would obviously blow Sky+ away but as someone who only watches the 'main' channels and not History, Biography etc and who never uses Wishlists anyway I think I will go for it. 

I decided not to a few weeks back, but after seeing Dual Record in action and with 100% picture quality I think Sky+ has won me over. That is until TiVo with built in DVD-Recorder comes to the UK and I ditch Sky+  Oh the joys of men and gadgets!!


----------



## sjp

woz... you might want to wait a few weeks... if you change it before you move in you will 1) probably lose your appointment and have to wait another week or so and 2) not score a "free" digibox 

"never uses wishlists" yer mad man, stark raving bonkers


----------



## wozwebs

Good point sjp, I am not getting a free digigbox anyway though. I am moving house so taking current box and paing £40 for installation but am getting the top package half price for 3 months (saving £60 off that, so really saving £20)

Might be worth asking if they can just in case the Sky bloke has a Sky+ box in his van on Friday. Will ring to check. Cheers


----------



## sjp

so you didn't go for the change sub into wives name and move the DD to another account then... i did a couple of years back - worked a treat


----------



## Automan

Sorry,
I forgot that 

All you have to do is press the rec button to save what's on and up to an hour in the past (depending on your settings and if you've been on the same channel).

I heard also an unconfirmed rumour today that the filmfour suite of channels may be Dolby Digital by the end of next March.

fingers crossed.

Automan.


----------



## Azrikam

Recording the buffer seems really small, but it's currently the feature I'd most like to have on my TiVo.

Because TiVo's guide data is iffy (at best) on some channels, I find myself flipping through them at certain times of the day, unsure what's being broadcast. When I do land on a programme I want, I end up creating a manual recording that starts in the past to tack the recording buffer to the rest of the show. If there's an easier way to do this, I'd like to know.


----------



## sjp

just press record and whatever is in the buffer (since last channel change) will be recorded... tivo has always had this feature (at least in my ownership years).


----------



## Richardr

One interesting thing I noticed last night is that now recording two consecutive programmes on Sky+ (and I had the set switched to standby) gives the full soft padding (overlapping) on both programmes.


----------



## Automan

> _Originally posted by Richardr _
> *One interesting thing I noticed last night is that now recording two consecutive programmes on Sky+ (and I had the set switched to standby) gives the full soft padding (overlapping) on both programmes. *


Yes, clever stuff
If Sky+ is in standby it will soft pad two programs that follow each other if on the same or different channels.

Some users who have upgraded their hard drives have had problems playing some of their older recordings back and some are having problems with new recordings.

I had three movies which would not play correctly.
All new recordings have played okay.

It's also reported that with some V1 boxes, if they recieved the upgrade when in standby will refuse to exit standby.

A special key sequence has to be used to force a cold box reboot (not a software download).

You can't beat controlled beta testing of a product before you roll it out to 120,000 customers 

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Something else you have to get used to is the EPG while the box is dual recording....

1. Only 48hrs of program name guide available.
2. No synopsis availble for anything on in the future (other than what your recording).
3. No EPG music 
4. No Interactive services.

This is all caused because normally a digibox would tune to the EPG channel while in the TV guide. Because both tuners are recording it can't.

While only one item is recording (or nothing is recording) operation is as before.

EDIT:
A few images for those who have no Sky+ box (yet)
http://www.hummer.co.uk/dual-record.htm

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

I've had this three times now - twice on BBC and once on Sky Sports.

When going to playback a recording - it is only 1-2 minutes long - and ends at the point when the actual programme should start. No errors reported, you a short recording.

Others are reporting this is the DS forum - and even the Sky CS person I spoke to was aware of it and has had the same problem - but Sky TS deny the problem.


----------



## kitschcamp

> _Originally posted by ozsat _
> *I've had this three times now - twice on BBC and once on Sky Sports.
> 
> When going to playback a recording - it is only 1-2 minutes long - and ends at the point when the actual programme should start. No errors reported, you a short recording.
> *


Yup, I've had that two weeks running with Casualty. I wasn't impressed.


----------



## OzSat

It's like the TiVo problem - but in reverse.

People complain that TiVo misses the last two minutes - now, Sky+ only gets the first two minutes 

I am aware of some other issues with Sky+ which are known by Sky - so I would expect another upgrade soon.


----------



## kitschcamp

Fingers crossed. I've removed the large hard drive from mine, and finally got around to putting the waranty replacement from Maxtor back in. That seems to work more reliably, at least, for the 17 minute bug problem.


----------



## OzSat

I had my Sky+ set to record 2 minutes before start and 2 minutes at end of all programmes.

It has still managed only to record 1-2 minutes in total - so much for padding.


----------



## kitschcamp

I had mine set for automatic padding.

I wonder if a manual recording would work any better?


----------



## OzSat

After the first two failures which were 2minutes either side - I changed it to auto at start and 2 minutes at end. It still didn't record more than 1 minute.

I've now set five at end.


----------



## OzSat

Don't know if its true or not - as I don't trust Sky+ enough to use it for top programmes (I use TiVo and it has found it OK) - but:

This Friday at 8pm on Sky One is a brand new episode of 'The Simpsons' (Sky's top programme), but the series link on Sky+ has skipped over it!


----------



## cwaring

According to DigiGuide it is the much-hyped, UK-based episode. Repeated Sunday @ 6.30pm.


----------



## OzSat

> _Originally posted by cwaring _
> *According to DigiGuide it is the much-hyped, UK-based episode. Repeated Sunday @ 6.30pm. *


 Featuring the UK's most well know ACTOR!

I wonder what the 8pm screening is about.


----------



## mrtickle

> _Originally posted by cwaring _
> *According to DigiGuide it is the much-hyped, UK-based episode. Repeated Sunday @ 6.30pm. *


NB that's Sunday 18th Jan for the repeat.

It's the only First Run Simpsons I can remember since I got Sky in 1997 that has a repeat shortly afterwards. Normally if you miss the first showing, you have a wait of 6-9 months before they'll show it in the daily showings!


----------



## cwaring

> _Originally posted by mrtickle _
> *NB that's Sunday 18th Jan for the repeat. *


Sorry! My bad. I don't normally watch the show, so didn't really take much notice of the date 

For the record, this will be only the first (possibly second) full episode I have ever seen.


----------



## Andrew Dade

Unrelated to discussion above but may be of interest...

My Sky+ decided to lock up during a viewing of programme last weekend. Not the first time and seems worse since the dual record thing was introduced. But this time nasty...

Unplug

Plug back in

Have no HD control or Personal planner, but can surf no problem. Message on screen... "call customer services, problem with box."

repeat power cycle a couple of times, same deal.

I checked the LNB feeds in the installer menu and hey one was down. Me checks antenna, cables, connectors.. no apparent problems, even swaped the feeds and yes the antenna seems OK. I assume some kind of hardware failure and call the on screen number.

Very helpful lady takes me to installer menu and does reset... Hey presto all well but all recordings and planner gone....

Hmmm, TiVo wins again...


----------



## Automan

It seems Sky's testing of this new feature was far from complete.

Quite a few users who have upgraded their drives suffer the 17min syndrome where recordings will not play beyond that point (sometimes 34mins).

A full housekeep (reformat drive) cures the problem for most but not all.

The dual record logic also under some conditions seems flawed with the box now saying part rec even when the whole program has been recorded.

The did not even manage to check the record led works correctly!
Under some conditions it can be off when its recording (typically when the first of two recordings being made end).
Other times its been reported to be on when nothing is being recorded.

"DR" as "Dual Record" is now known does have some good points and can soft pad two consectutive programs recorded from the same channel or different channels.

Automan.


----------



## JamboRobbo

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *
> A full housekeep (reformat drive) cures the problem for most but not all.
> 
> *


Only for a while though. The problem seems to have a chance of re-appearing whenever the box is re-booted (as happened to me last week!).

Robbo


----------



## bobnick

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *It seems Sky's testing of this new feature was far from complete.
> *


It seems that 99% of the people affected have opened up their boxes and replaced the hard disk with one of their own - that's a diferent make and size to that supplied.
Tivo have given the nod with regard to disk replacement - but Sky haven't.
You can't really blame Sky's software testing for not picking up these 'problems' - I haven't complained to Panasonic after my microwave stopped working when I 'upgraded' it.


----------



## Andrew Dade

I should say that my drive is the original supplied.... still needed the reformat route it seems. 

Had thought about an upgrade but not done it as yet... maybe I will wait  

TiVo has a 120 Gb no problems at all....


----------



## cwaring

> _Originally posted by bobnick _
> *I haven't complained to Panasonic after my microwave stopped working when I 'upgraded' it. *


That sounds interesting. Do tell  Is it now like the one in "Back To The Future II" that will cook stuff in, like, ten seconds


----------



## bobnick

Didn't that one expand food?


----------



## OzSat

> _Originally posted by bobnick _
> *It seems that 99% of the people affected have opened up their boxes and replaced the hard disk with one of their own - that's a diferent make and size to that supplied.
> Tivo have given the nod with regard to disk replacement - but Sky haven't.
> You can't really blame Sky's software testing for not picking up these 'problems' - I haven't complained to Panasonic after my microwave stopped working when I 'upgraded' it. *


 I would say that "TiVo have turned a blind eye - rather than giving the nod"


----------



## bobnick

Say what you like, but Tivo have acknowledged that people pop the case and install new stuff. They've used 3rd party software (that was developed to be used on hacked series 1 machines) in their new OS.
Sky have never acknowledged or allowed people to pop the case of Sky+.

Without the geeks that have upgraded their Sky+, the 17 minute bug seems to be no worse than Tivo's random ability to record no signal for certain recordings.


----------



## pahunt

> _Originally posted by bobnick _
> *Say what you like, but Tivo have acknowledged that people pop the case and install new stuff. They've used 3rd party software (that was developed to be used on hacked series 1 machines) in their new OS.
> Sky have never acknowledged or allowed people to pop the case of Sky+.
> 
> Without the geeks that have upgraded their Sky+, the 17 minute bug seems to be no worse than Tivo's random ability to record no signal for certain recordings. *


They have acknowledged it but they made things a lot harder to hack with the Series 2 so it would seem they're not entirely happy. Also don't forget that they have just had all the backup images removed from the sites that were hosting them.


----------



## pgogborn

> _Originally posted by pahunt _
> *They have acknowledged it but they made things a lot harder to hack with the Series 2 so it would seem they're not entirely happy. Also don't forget that they have just had all the backup images removed from the sites that were hosting them. *


In a further crack-down on the copying/modifying etc of software, the next announce enhancement will be protected with a hardware dongle. Or as TiVo Inc would put it - we think it is so important to protect a users content, a security key will have to be inserted into the TiVo before a user can transfer recordings to another device. >
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1637078#post1637078


----------



## Automan

http://www.amstrad.com/drx180.html

500,000 Sky boxes sold by the end of 2004?

Automan.


----------



## wozwebs

Doesn't seem to be anything different to the Pace V2 does there?


----------



## Automan

Over the last couple of days Sky+ boxes have received another upgrade.

This has changed to box model number information and the only apparent change is that the cooling fan now cuts in at a lower temperature and thus runs more often.

The upgrade did of course reboot the boxes bringing the 17min problem back (for users with non standard drives).

I have done a full housekeep on my box to see if this change has correct this problem.

My box is recording at the moment Ben Hur from the BBC.
Very strange, they have managed to find a 16:9 copy but only mono sound 

Ben Hur was recorded with a six channel magnectic sound system.

Automan.


----------



## randap

Pardon my ignorance (and this is a LONG thread), can you use TiVo to control one of the Sky+ tuners?

If so, can you still watch another Sky+ channel (or have Sky+ recording another channel) at the same time?

Are there any other combinations you can run with TiVo and Sky+?

Would anyone recommend a TiVo and Sky+ combo rather than a regular receiver?

I thinking of getting Sky+ you see.........now that installation is free but I don't want to have a dual subscription going.


----------



## iankb

You really need the dual subscription, or else you will need to run the Sky+ box as not much more than a standard digibox. The problem is that while the Sky+ box has twin tuners, it only has one output. Therefore if you give that output to the TiVo, you cannot watch anything else from the Sky+ box, whether you want to watch a live Sky channel, or watch a Sky+ recording.


----------



## randap

OK. Let me get this straight:

You can use TiVo to control Sky+ but....

1) TiVo will record the Sky+ output whether it is live or a recording
2) Sky+ could record a different channel while TiVo is recording a live output  (can you watch live TV while Sky+ is recording?)
3) You could only watch the Sky+ recording when TiVo is not wanting to record something else 

All in all, this suggests a TiVo - Sky+ combo is almost pointless.....:down:


----------



## iankb

It is pointless. The only real combination is with a dual subscription. Then you can use the TiVo to control a standard digibox, use one Sky+ channel to record DD5.1 films and clashes, and use the other Sky+ channel to watch live, or record three-way clashes. Since the standard digibox and the Sky+ box use different IR-codes, you shouldn't have any IR problems.

At one time, it was also stated that the dual recording feature of Sky+ would display prompts that confused the TiVo control. However, this may have been a red herring.


----------



## randap

Thanks Ian. You've just saved me £199!!!


----------



## Steve_K

> _Originally posted by iankb _
> *It is pointless. The only real combination is with a dual subscription. . *


 Sorry Ian I have to disagree. Sky+/TiVo works fine for me as long as I don't get too clever and set Sky+ to record two programmes simultaneously just when TiVo wants to record something from Sky (TiVo will kill the second recording) or watch a Sky+ recording when you're expecting TiVo to record something important from Sky.

Be sensible and Sky+ matched with TiVo is a staggeringly good set up. The extra freedom it's given me through dual record is almost as good as the initial gain of getting TiVo some years back.

So randap my view is go see how Sky+ works for a user you know. You'll find the user interface very clunky but the dual record and picture quality brilliant. Well worth the £250 in my book. If I could only have one I'd pick TiVo - I think, but maybe . . . . .

 steve


----------



## iankb

You obviously don't record as much as me. There is no way that I could watch a live programme or a Sky+ recording, without the risk of upsetting a TiVo recording. The only way that could work is if you use the Sky+ box as the primary recorder, and the TiVo for occasional clashes. I would always use the TiVo as the primary recorder because of its SP and wishlist functionality.

Sorry, for me, it is still pointless.


----------



## sanderton

Over at Digital Spy, it appears that Alan Sugar has started posting on a thread about Sky+, now that the Amstrad model is shipping.

http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=114932

If it's not him then its a *very* elaborate hoax!!


----------



## iankb

A very brave man. It's a shame that TiVo Inc. didn't send him a free TiVo a while ago. Then he wouldn't be quite so adamant that Sky+ is going to grab the whole UK market.


----------



## pgogborn

He may have delegated the postings to a minion, but he has been active on the board. He even offered 10 prototype Amstrad Sky+ boxes to people on the forum to test and try to break.


----------



## kitschcamp

> _Originally posted by sanderton _
> *
> If it's not him then its a very elaborate hoax!! *


It's very Lemon Lyman, isn't it?


----------



## Steve_K

> _Originally posted by iankb _
> *Sorry, for me, it is still pointless. *


 We're both right, as it just shows how much the TiVo/PVR change has done for all of us. It's let us watch TV how we want and let us build our own styles of viewing. I watch a huge amount of TV, most of it recorded on the TiVo and the SKY+/TiVO works with our way of using it. It clearly doesn't work for the way you use it and why should you change? No reason at all.

For me I always look at TiVO's to do list before using Sky+ replay/pause features and so far that's worked very well.

cheers

steve


----------



## the_hut

Thankfully he did confirm that the next UK TiVo is unlikely to be made by Amstrad. Something of a relief, I think.

I would also like to echo the previous comments that TiVo and Sky Plus work well together. I use the TiVo day to day and Sky Plus only when I want to dual record. Picture quality on Sky Plus is also superb... when I get a DVD recorder for archiving, I have a feeling that Sky Plus will get used a lot more at our house.


----------



## iankb

My comments about Sky+ and TiVo were not related to having both boxes, which I think makes a lot of sense, but in the practicality of using the Sky+ box as the source for the TiVo.

I just couldn't rely on getting reliable TiVo recordings if I had to continually find suitable gaps to watch a Sky+ recording or live programme, especially if those recordings were long (DD5.1) films. Also, the recording of TiVo suggestions would have to be switched off to ensure that those gaps didn't disappear. I'm sure that some people finds that acceptable, but I was trying to point out that probably the majority of people wouldn't.


----------



## sanderton

> _Originally posted by the_hut _
> *Thankfully he did confirm that the next UK TiVo is unlikely to be made by Amstrad. Something of a relief, I think.
> *


On the contrary, better any TiVo than none, and Amstrad's kit has got alot better.


----------



## cwaring

> _Originally posted by kitschcamp _
> *It's very Lemon Lyman, isn't it? *


Ahh! Another "West Wing" fan


----------



## kitschcamp

Too right. Well and truly getting the jitters waiting for the new series to arrive (presumably in the summer).


----------



## randap

> _Originally posted by iankb _
> *My comments about Sky+ and TiVo were not related to having both boxes, which I think makes a lot of sense, but in the practicality of using the Sky+ box as the source for the TiVo.
> 
> I just couldn't rely on getting reliable TiVo recordings if I had to continually find suitable gaps to watch a Sky+ recording or live programme, especially if those recordings were long (DD5.1) films. Also, the recording of TiVo suggestions would have to be switched off to ensure that those gaps didn't disappear. I'm sure that some people finds that acceptable, but I was trying to point out that probably the majority of people wouldn't. *


Ah well. I've gone and done it. Sky+ arrives 18th April......

I've decided that I'll continue to use TiVo to control Sky+, and then occasionally use Sky+ for DD5.1 movies (I have lots of DVDs so this is fairly rare). The reason being that I have future proof flexibilty, and can always change things around at a later date if my situation changes - all I need to do now is route my cables so that Sky don't wreck my home.......


----------



## Mike Jones

Has anyone asked Alan Sugar direct on the Digital Spy forum if he has ever considered making a TIVo?


----------



## spons

Funny how the longest thread on this Forum is the Sky+ thread eh???


----------



## sanderton

It was started three years ago...


----------



## cwaring

> _Originally posted by Mike Jones _
> *Has anyone asked Alan Sugar direct on the Digital Spy forum if he has ever considered making a TIVo? *


Yep. I think Stuart did. Alan's reply was that they were sticking with Sky+.


----------



## OzSat

For those of your in the BBC1 London or South regions - note that your Sky EPG is wrong tonight as both regions are showing their own programmes at 11.15pm which are missing from your EPG. There are not only missing but the EPG has the wrong times from 11.15pm until the end of the film which will be 30 minutes later than stated in the EPG.

The same applies to BBC1 East Midlands, BBC1 North, BBC1 North West and BBC1 West at 11.35pm on Wednesday night.

At present, the Sky EPG is not able to show time-shifted variations (or non news opt-outs) for BBC1 England regions.

TiVo has the correct listings.


----------



## gregh

Afternoon all,

I'm moving house shortly and am considering reducing the amount of boxes under the TV, so wondering about selling the Tivo and getting Sky+, so Ihave a few questions.

1) Does the Sky+ season pass now record new series if you'd set it to record the last series?

2) anything like endpad to auto add start/end padding?

The advantages I see to Sky+ are the dolby digital output, and the ability to record one program whilst watching another. Any other advantages I've missed?

cheers,

Greg


----------



## sanderton

1) No, they time out after 28 days with no showing
2) Yes, as I understand it that's the standard behaviour.


----------



## Stroller

> _Originally posted by gregh _
> *Afternoon all,
> 
> I'm moving house shortly and am considering reducing the amount of boxes under the TV, so wondering about selling the Tivo and getting Sky+, so I have a few questions.
> 
> 1) Does the Sky+ season pass now record new series if you'd set it to record the last series?
> 
> 2) anything like endpad to auto add start/end padding?
> 
> The advantages I see to Sky+ are the dolby digital output, and the ability to record one program whilst watching another. Any other advantages I've missed?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Greg *


Mate, as someone who owns both a Tivo and Sky+, i'd advise you to reconsider. If I had to have one of the two, the Sky+ would be gone in a second!
As a PVR or even a DVR its so limited at a platform its embarrassing. Some of the small things you take for granted with the Tivo just cant be done on the sky system, and when these little "niggles" run into the 10's and 20's you begin to appreciate just how much better Tivo is than the Sky+
For someone who has never owned a Tivo i can see why people may think sky+ is great, but once you've owned a Tivo you'll really notice the limitations of Sky pretty damn sharpish!

At the VERY LEAST i'd suggest you keep the Tivo for a while when you get the sky - 99% of all recording in my household is done on the Tivo, which says it all for me really. Right now my Sky+ HDD is about 80-88% empty, while my Tivo is always near full!


----------



## gregh

Is it really that bad? what's the little niggles that it can't do then?

cheers,

Greg


----------



## Steve_K

it'd take too long to tell all the little niggles of Sky+ compared to TiVo but here's a few:

- it won't go weeks let alone months without crashing.

- it won't recognise season passes for strange reasons - eg Fifth gear and it certainly doesn't rememebr them for programmes that return after a year.

- it won't do wish lists

- it won't do proper searches by title, content or actors

- it won't record suggestions

That said it's a tough call which I could do without first. I reckon if you're smart enough to use this forum you're smart enough to cope with the funnies of either Sky+ (awesome picture quality and flexibility) and TiVo (stunning user interface and aids).

My vote: get them both, they complement each other

steve


----------



## Furball

You forgot to add all those lovely TiVo sounds ie the bongs, dongs and blings that you dont get with $ky+ 
The number of $ky+ owners that have heard the way our TiVo bings and bongs, ask if I have added the sounds and could I copy the sound files and add them to their $ky+ box  
I just say buy a TiVo  

Fur


----------



## chrisrobbo

But Sky+ will continue to improve, whilst TIVO in the Uk has hit the wall. No more updates to the UK Tivo, at least Sky+ can get better!

As an owner of both, I would find it hard to choose one over the other, half a dozen of one, to six of the other. I don't like this comparison of the two, in my eyes they are two different pieces of kit, 

If you want a PVR that will do your thinking for you, record programmes you may like, work on alternative packages, a kit which you can fiddle with to you hearts content, then TIVO is for you.

If you want a solid replacement for your video, which will record your programmes digitally on a hard drive, allow you to record two programmes at once, whilst watching anther prerecorded, not to far from the platform your already used too, if you a current sky subscriber then Sky+ is for you.

If you really want to be adventourous then buiild your own! an hard drive, a capture card etc.

As I said, TIVO or Sky+, have a think about what YOU want, and not what other people expect from a PVR then decide which is better for you.


----------



## cwaring

> _Originally posted by chrisrobbo _
> *But Sky+ will continue to improve, whilst TIVO in the Uk has hit the wall. No more updates to the UK Tivo, at least Sky+ can get better! *


In the time that Sky+ takes to get to Tivo's level of useability/features, there may well be another Tivo in the UK  (We all hope )


----------



## gregh

I'd love to have both, but seeing as I'm trying to reduce the number of boxes that ain't an option!

I can live without suggestions, don't use wish lists, but the fact it crashes so often ain't good. Is yours a v1 or v2 Sky+?


----------



## Stroller

> _Originally posted by gregh _
> *Is it really that bad? what's the little niggles that it can't do then?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Greg *


For me its little things that I didn't realise how much I used them until I coulnd't do them with the sky. for example, you cant browse the EPG on Sky while you have a program paused (when i'm watching live TV, i often browse the EPG while the ads are on - you cant do this with sky!!!), you cannot pause interactive football, you cannot record interactive football (or anything interactive for that matter!), you cannot pause live TV and watch a recording (something i tend to do when i want to generate a 'build up' on a long program and run on the ads, the EPG is massively flawed (its a real pain in the ass to find things on the EPG compared to Tivo), the EPG on Sky is only a week (at best!). Many things I have season passes for on my Tivo just aren't available on Sky+ due to the shoddy way they've implemented the links. Not to mention the Tivo is a MUCH more stable platform. I've lost many programs and recordings on the Sky, but never on the Tivo. You can also upgrade a Tivo without the fear of it failing to work thereafter. The same cannot be said for sky


----------



## chrisrobbo

Regarding Sky+ crashing, I have had mine for more than two years and can't recall it crashing once. 

The thing about Sky+ crashing is, you only here from those people whose crash! and not from the hundreds of thousands (present users of sky+ is in excess of 300,000) that have no problem at all.

So, although I do believe there are sky+ systems out there that have bugs and crash, I believe it to be a small minority, and the problems should be taken with a large pinch of salt.


----------



## iankb

What you hear about is those Sky+ users who experience crashes and post to newsgroups. What about the majority of Sky+ users who experience crashes and don't post to newsgroups?


----------



## OzSat

I don't have any crash problems with Sky+


----------



## chrisrobbo

What I was saying is that a person is more likely to post to a newsgroup or forum if they experience problems, whether the reason is to try and find a solution or just to shout about it. If a person (such as myself) experience no problems, crashes, lost programmes, or broken series links, then they are more likely to get on with life.

Discuss


----------



## OzSat

> _Originally posted by chrisrobbo _
> *What I was saying is that a person is more likely to post to a newsgroup or forum if they experience problems, whether the reason is to try and find a solution or just to shout about it. If a person (such as myself) experience no problems, crashes, lost programmes, or broken series links, then they are more likely to get on with life.
> 
> Discuss *


 :up:


----------



## Automan

Under my main TV I still have a Tivo with it's own Digibox and a Pace V2 Sky+ box. Both are fitted with 120Gb hard drives.

The Sky+ box I use nearly all the time and the Tivo quite often remains in standby except at the weekends where I check if it's recorded anything interesting that it has not already recorded before (it's a shame the 30 day rule was not a 90 day rule). Typically everything it records I've already watched or I did not want to record anyway so I delete.

Sky+ hovever only records things I want to watch, is faster to use, no sound effects on the menus, always records the correct channel, you can browse for other things to record while playing a recording, can record two things at once, padding, supports dolby digital sound, rarely crashes, you can create bookmarks in recordings, no picture or sound quality degradation caused by recording progress, never records red dots, interactive service availble from same remote, remote can control modern TV's volume / mute or most modern A/V amps, series links now work okay even if the next episode is not yet in the upcoming EPG.

Virtually every series I want to record has a series link.
The X-Files, Early Edition, Chips, Lost In Space, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, Big Screen Britain, My Family, Jonathan Creek, The Dick Van **** Show, Sliders, Star Trek: Enterprise, The New Twilight Zone & South Park.

True, it can't auto record all movies with John Wayne in 

At a guess I would say their must be at least 150,000 Sky+ boxes now in service in the UK comapred with 30 to 40,000 Tivo boxes.

I'm sure most Sky+ box owners are very happy with the product and if all you were used to was a VCR a Sky+ is a big *+* 

Automan.


----------



## cwaring

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *Typically everything it records I've already watched or I did not want to record anyway so I delete.*


Sorry if I've mis-interepreted your meaning, but I don't see how this is possible; unless you only use it to record suggestions.


----------



## the_hut

> _Originally posted by chrisrobbo _
> *What I was saying is that a person is more likely to post to a newsgroup or forum if they experience problems, whether the reason is to try and find a solution or just to shout about it. If a person (such as myself) experience no problems, crashes, lost programmes, or broken series links, then they are more likely to get on with life.
> 
> Discuss *


After I got my TiVo I, like many others, flocked to this forum to evangelize about what a great product it was.


----------



## Steve_K

re Sky+ crashes I must have a V2 as I only got it this year

Now this isn't a Sky forum but for the purposes of validating the comparison, this sequence makes my Sky+ crash just about every time:

Watch a recorded Sky+ programme and then stop it at critical point by pressing the Sky button followed by numbers (TiVo will do this if it thinks it's time for a suggestion but then the cat can and has done the same by walking on the remote)

Shout a few words, then grab the remote and quickly press the Sky guide button to get back to the original programme - wrong!

At this point my Sky+ will blank the screen except for a frozen programme banner. It will play the sound but will do nothing else until you cycle the power (needs at least a 2 minute recovery) Shout a lot of words. If I was watching a delayed live programme it loses all that recording. Shout even more.

It's probably a memory buffer overflow but it does it enough to annoy. TiVo meantime just never seems to crash and this forum is much better than the Sky+ one on Digital Spy.

But then Sky+ coped with the Indy 500 rescheduling. 

If you really haven't room for two boxes, why not put both in a cupboard and run them an IR remote repeater?

steve


----------



## Automan

> _Originally posted by Steve_K _
> *re Sky+ crashes I must have a V2 as I only got it this year
> 
> Watch a recorded Sky+ programme and then stop it at critical point by pressing the Sky button followed by numbers (TiVo will do this if it thinks it's time for a suggestion but then the cat can and has done the same by walking on the remote)
> 
> Shout a few words, then grab the remote and quickly press the Sky guide button to get back to the original programme - wrong!
> 
> *


To return to a recording you were watching all you have to do is press the play key twice.

No need to return to any sky menu or the Sky Guide.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

> _Originally posted by cwaring _
> *Sorry if I've mis-interepreted your meaning, but I don't see how this is possible; unless you only use it to record suggestions. *


It has lots of wish lists to record programs starring x.

These are typically movie stars and most of the movies I have already seen.

It also records lost in space and many of the other items Sky+ does.
But I would normally watched them already on Sky+ and are just a sought of backup copy incase Sky+ lets me down.

Sky+ is far from perfect and I would still buy a new Tivo (if launched in the UK) and I would prefer this product to have dual intergrated Sky Digital tuners.

However, the features of Sky+ I feel meet the needs of the average TV viewer quite well. Tivo I suspect is a little ott for the average UK man in the street - but not for us TV Holics 

Automan.


----------



## chrisrobbo

> At a guess I would say their must be at least 150,000 Sky+ boxes now in service in the UK comapred with 30 to 40,000 Tivo boxes.


According to this article on digital spy the numbers over 300,000.

Anyway I think what we wall agree is that TIVO and Sky+ are far from the perfect PVR, and all would like to see a compilation of the two, but here's hoping.

How about,

A dual record and extra play tuner (triple tuner)
Season Passes
EPG for upto a month.
Archive facilty
Network capabilties, and even mobile phone programming.
Wishlists

etc. etc. etc.

But the only way we'll see this, is if Sky purchase the rights for TIVO's technology, to use in the UK, seeing that TIVO US are not planning on psuhing the UK market any further, and then using the technology to create a Sky++ system.

But we all know this won't happen, as Sky have stated in the past they are not interested in creating such a complete PVR, but are content with the functionality they have alreading.


----------



## vassilis

The moral first.... 

If you have a TIVO and thinking of SKY+ ... STICK with the Tivo!
SKY+ is still under development. Wait possibly another 6 months to 1 year until they sort it out.

Why? Well where do I start.....? First of all make sure you read 
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/forumdisplay.php?f=35

All the recent horror stories are there. An Yes there are a lot of people who have problems with it and No I dont think that this is coincidental.

My experience so far:

Installed SKY+ as soon as they dropped the £10 sub for SKY Movies subscribers. The installation was a nightmare but I will not go into that. Apparently you may get a knowledgable and responsible installer but this is pot luck if you are going through SKY.

The system sort of worked for a while. I am saying sort of as it does not allow you to put a series link on anything you like... ONLY those series that SKY thinks that you may like. So SKY 1 series are ok but even then you cannot for example record all Stargate episodes. You have to be specific with the time slot. SO if SKY decides that you cant possibly want to record the 2am episode then they dont bother to put a series link there and you have to find the other timeslt where they have the series link on. If you are watching series on other minority channels you will have more problems.

Now for the crunch. The box does not crash so often but when it does, it does it big time!

What happens is that: it buffers the second tuner through its hard disk. So far so good. But if and when it crashes (say a minor drop of power), then the buffer gets locked and the box cannot unlock it!. What it does in that case is to think that you have no signal on tuner 2! Then it stops recording and in most cases stops showing the recorded listings as well (it actually thinks you have disabled the SKY+ functions ...more about that later). So it starts displaying a "call the SKY support centre message" when you try to record.

When you do call them, they take you through a reboot sequence and if that fails (and in most cases it does because the software is stupid enough not to remove the file lock) then they take you through what they call as 'housekeeping'. This works in most cases but it has the small side effect of erasing all of your recordings! The recordings are on the disk by the way, but the box initialises its table of contents and ... thats it! you have lost everything!

If the housekeeping does not work then they offer to replace the unit. Completely unecessary in most cases as it is just a stupid file lock but quite rightly they cannot expect you to remove the disk and delete the locked file.

Apart from the inconvenience of having to wait for an "engineer" to come along and replace your unit, when he/she does.... s/he replaces it with refurbised second hand one! Why? because they have so many of those! can you refuse that? Well you can try but read the above forum for the "fun" stories.

In any case when this happens you can take the disk off and either reformat it attempt delete the buffer files the disk is readable under Windows). Then everything else is restored. So if it happens to you, dont accept a swap! There is nothing wrong with the box. It just has crappy software!

The above has happened to me 3 times so far, since they switched on the dual recording function. If it hasn't happened to one of the other members I am glad for them, but you dont want me to describe my reaction when I lost my recordings.

And finally.... the software does 'forget' links and sometimes gets confused when two recordings overlap and you get "funny" error messages like "RECORDING FAILED" (no explanation). "PARTIALLY RECORDED" and the best one .. FAILED because of a CLASH...(clash? what clash? there are two tuners in the box!).

So... if you have a TIVO then stick to it and save (at least) £ 200 pounds for the time being. When they sort out the software, then think about it again. But even then, apart from the dual tuner and digital sound, the actual functionality of the user interface and the very limited series link mechanism makes it an inferior product for someone who has experienced TIVO..

Oh yes! I almost forgot! If you stop subscribing to the SKY movies/sport or world packages then you have to either pay 10 pounds a month or your box becomes an ordinary SKYBOX and .... you have no access to your recordings! Mainly because everything is recorded raw and if you dont subscribe to the origin channel at the time of play tehn the card will refuse to decode it! 

I hope this helps 

Vassilis


----------



## chrisrobbo

> SKY+ is still under development. Wait possibly another 6 months to 1 year until they sort it out.


WRONG, Sky+ is not still under development, no more so than any piece of software on the market, they are contiuning to improve it.

As to your experiences, I have had no problems at all for over two years, so my good experiences cancel out your bad.

Regarding as to what happens if you cancel your subscription or downgrade, this is made clear when subscribing to sky+, so if you were not aware of what would happen, then that is just naive.


----------



## gregh

It's interesting to read all this stuff, still no clearer in my mind though! Having said that, Tivo is far from perfect, just read all the threads on listing/schedule errors!!


----------



## vassilis

I am sorry but your good experience does not necessarily cancel my experience. 

I am glad that SKY+ works the way you expect it to work. But if you ever lose recordings you will understand what I mean. 

Somehow though I would not call debugging ... constant imrovement. 

By they way, I did not call anybody naive. Did I? I was merely pointing out (to somebody who is considering SKY+) that he will not have access to recordings if he downgrades. This is not obvious to a TIVO user as the recordings are made in the clear. So please dont patronise me. 

Vassilis


----------



## gregh

btw vassilis I've lost/not had recorded a fair few programs on my Tivo, classic example being Touring cars last Sunday.


----------



## Automan

> _Originally posted by vassilis _
> *I am sorry but your good experience does not necessarily cancel my experience.
> 
> I am glad that SKY+ works the way you expect it to work. But if you ever lose recordings you will understand what I mean.
> 
> Somehow though I would not call debugging ... constant imrovement.
> 
> By they way, I did not call anybody naive. Did I? I was merely pointing out (to somebody who is considering SKY+) that he will not have access to recordings if he downgrades. This is not obvious to a TIVO user as the recordings are made in the clear. So please dont patronise me.
> 
> Vassilis *


Hi,
It does seem that your box is worse than the average.
It could be a dodgy box, could be due to poor dish installation / alignment or maybe the box is getting overheated due being in a confined space.

With over 300,000 Sky+ boxes in operation 24/7, I would assume consumers with major problems must be in the minority.

True, the software running on Sky+ is far from perfect and we can only hope future releases will reduce these problems.

Some commom problems with Sky+ are listed at http://www.hummer.co.uk/skyplus-bugs.htm

Automan.


----------



## vassilis

This may be the case but judging from the reports over at the SKY+ forums a lot of people do get the 17 minutes bug and the lnb lockups. By the way I do use the extra two feeds from the lnb on other receivers and the signal looks fine to me. I thought of overheating but the lock-ups appear to have happened after minor drops of power or a software crash. 

Tivo can cope with those quite nicely and at worst will just reboot but SKY+ is not that intelligent. 

But in any case I still think that they have not got the interface right yet especially the series mechanism. 

They will probably get it right eventually but if I had to chose between Tivo and SKY+ today, I would have stayed with just Tivo. For the foreseeable future that is


----------



## ALanJay

One of the things that inetrest me is that a number of the regulars on this board who also have Sky+ and who don't have problems have previously stated that they have UPS on their TiVo Sky Sky+ boxes and Vassilis comments give the impression that in his opinion a fluctuating power supply can cause problems.

I wonder if this is a real issue or just an "impression" from a few posters here and on Diigtal Spy.


----------



## spons

I have both Tivo and Sky+ and the sky has crashed on me 4 times since it was installed in February. It has also missed numerous recordings. One trick that happens occasionally is that Sky forget to put information about the end time of a programme. The result is 3 hours of constant recording causing various clashes and unrecorded programmes. I'm on a clear run this last few weeeks so lets hope it continues!


----------



## Stroller

> _Originally posted by spons _
> *One trick that happens occasionally is that Sky forget to put information about the end time of a programme. The result is 3 hours of constant recording causing various clashes and unrecorded programmes. I'm on a clear run this last few weeeks so lets hope it continues! *


I had that once about 3 weeks ago. Started a recording for 8:00pm, and it never stopped. When I looked at the box the next morning it was STILL RECORDING and to make space i'd lost the recordings already on the hard disk to make room for the 14hours I didn't ask it to record!!!


----------



## Steve_K

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *To return to a recording you were watching all you have to do is press the play key twice.
> 
> No need to return to any sky menu or the Sky Guide.
> 
> Automan. *


Thanks, I'll try that

steve


----------



## Kgoodyer

OK I have spent 3 hours looking in the forums, and its a simple question.

Panasonic SKY box went POP (Overheated, Refuses to decode white), upgraded to Sky+. Wife Left Me.

Just want to go back to TiVo, And Get wife to come home 

(Actually Not That Bad - But We Both Love TiVo Interface)


So did TiVo ever release codes for Sky+ ?

KG


----------



## sanderton

Yes, Grundig 20018 I think.


----------



## OzSat

Sky+ has removed my 'Series Links' for 'My Family' and 'Jonathan Ross' - no idea why!


----------



## sanderton

Thge Top Gear SL apparently went walkies DURING THE RECORDING last night, causing it to be deleted even if you checked to see the record light was on.

Several divorces imminent judging by the DS threads, as people accused their other half of deleting it!


----------



## kitschcamp

The Casualty one regularly did that before Christmas. I gave up recording that on Sky+. As did a day of the French Open last week. BBC is useless with Sky+.


----------



## Steve_K

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *To return to a recording you were watching all you have to do is press the play key twice.
> 
> No need to return to any sky menu or the Sky Guide.
> 
> Automan. *


 Yep it works thanks and sadly it will also crash a Sky+ if done too fast after a TiVo suggestion cuts in.

I'm beginning to suspect Sky+ of having memory leakage and so maybe I'll plan a reboot every Saturday morning while I'm doing my regular check of errors in the TiVo tribune database.

They're still both brilliant boxes though. I mean just how many lost recordings did we all used to have with VHS?

steve


----------



## kitschcamp

> _Originally posted by kitschcamp _
> *The Casualty one regularly did that before Christmas. I gave up recording that on Sky+. As did a day of the French Open last week. BBC is useless with Sky+. *


And for consistency, they've borked the series link for the Stella Artois, also. Grrr.


----------



## Automan

Pace Sky+ boxes have all recived new software today.

New Features
1. Possible support for larger drives (free space indicator now correct for non standard drives).

2. Sky+ Planner entries can be sorted (handy if you have lots of recordings) A-Z, Viewed, Recorded or Booked order.

3. Also claimed that the hard drives turns off when unit is in standby (making Sky+ EPA friendly).

4. Second room RF output can feed a TV with a different aspect ratio.

Automan.


----------



## healeydave

Weyhey, I might buy one now!!




... nah, only joking ;-)


----------



## the_hut

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *Pace Sky+ boxes have all recived new software today.
> 
> New Features
> 1. Possible support for larger drives (free space indicator now correct for non standard drives).
> 
> 2. Sky+ Planner entries can be sorted (handy if you have lots of recordings) A-Z, Viewed, Recorded or Booked order.
> 
> 3. Also claimed that the hard drives turns off when unit is in standby (making Sky+ EPA friendly).
> 
> 4. Second room RF output can feed a TV with a different aspect ratio.
> 
> *


5. Introduction of a nag screen to tell you to connect the digibox to a phone line.

Consequently I lost all of my TiVo recordings until 8.30pm this evening as the nag screen needs you to "Press Back Up To Return." Has anyone any ideas as to how often this nag screen comes up or what triggers it? Having purchased the Sky+ box, I rather thought it was my choice as to whether I want it plugged in to the phoneline.


----------



## Automan

> _Originally posted by the_hut _
> *5. Introduction of a nag screen to tell you to connect the digibox to a phone line.
> 
> Consequently I lost all of my TiVo recordings until 8.30pm this evening as the nag screen needs you to "Press Back Up To Return." Has anyone any ideas as to how often this nag screen comes up or what triggers it? Having purchased the Sky+ box, I rather thought it was my choice as to whether I want it plugged in to the phoneline. *


All Sky digiboxes now have this "feature"

I understand it only happens the first time the box is powered up or after a reboot.

Of course the nag screen would not affect recordings made on Sky+ and because I have a triple sub I have to have my boxes connected to the phone line.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Screendumps etc of the wonderful new features can be seen at the plusworld site http://www.plusworld.co.uk/news3.htm

http://www.plusworld.co.uk for main page.

Automan.


----------



## Steve_K

> _Originally posted by healeydave _
> *... nah, only joking ;-) *


You're missing out then.


----------



## healeydave

I don't think so


----------



## Automan

With Sky's latest software release when a box is placed in standby the hard drive is shut off.

Since the launch of Tivo a few years ago many threads have discussed hard drive life reliabilty in a device where the drive is on 24/7 and most have agreed the best option is to leave it running (no USA EPA certificate for Tivo boxes).

Anyway, it seems quite a few users are now reporting hard drive problems and I suspect those soles with drives that have been running for over a year are no longer spinning up when the Sky+ os requires it.

Automan.


----------



## iankb

I think the best option is to leave the drive running but stop writing to the live buffer. That will keep the drive rotating (so reducing stress due to temperature change and overcoming inertia), but reduce the wear due to head movement.


----------



## Automan

Sky have now added another feature fo those who like to record sports events.

Some details at http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=6928

Automan.


----------



## Steve_K

That looks like a useful feature and sadly another example of where Sky+ by working at the data stream level can outperform TiVo. The user interface of Sky+ is still rubbish but whatever the poll thread http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197570 says, Sky+ is soon going to become a first choice recording solution.

steve


----------



## OzSat

Good old Sky+

Had a 'Series Link' set for Little Britain on Tuesdays.

All was fine and it recorded last night's.

But for next week it has decided that it will record 'Little Angels' instead - not only that, but then manually restarting Little Britain shows the SL is no longer an option!


----------



## OzSat

btw: it's not the first time unwanted programmes have appeared in the Sky Planner - but is the first time I've seen what didn't get added.


----------



## GarySargent

Shhhh don't tell Automan whatever you do


----------



## the_hut

Don't get me wrong; I have an utter dislike of Sky+ and think that TiVo is miles better. In fact TiVo is the best consumer electronics device I have ever purchased bar none.

But isn't it just a little bit rich to start pointing out the (undoubted) failings of the Sky+ Series Link option when Tribune's Season Pass data is also inadequate? 

On the very series mentioned ("Little Britain"/"New Little Britain"), someone with TiVo setting a season pass with the first episode would have missed all five of the following episodes. As reported before, I have seen the same things happening on Survivor and Wife Swap to name but two.


----------



## OzSat

> _Originally posted by the_hut _
> *Don't get me wrong; I have an utter dislike of Sky+ and think that TiVo is miles better. In fact TiVo is the best consumer electronics device I have ever purchased bar none.
> 
> But isn't it just a little bit rich to start pointing out the (undoubted) failings of the Sky+ Series Link option when Tribune's Season Pass data is also inadequate? *


 No - it is more to point out that for every fault you can find with TiVo - you can find one on Sky+ or any other system.

The TiVo SP data for Little Britain is selecting too many episodes at present - but at least you get them!

Most of TiVo's data problems can be seen in advance - although you shouldn't need to check the data in advance.

But Sky+ seems to just delete things - often last minute - and there is no way of checking why.

Just waiting for Automan to responed 

btw: all our live and rewind type viewing is via Sky+ - but we only trust TiVo to record the important stuff.


----------



## Automan

Sky+ program data is getting no better but is not getting any worse. The same I think can be said for the quality of series links which work most of the time on the major channels (including ITV3).

I do however think the quality of the Tivo EPG data is going down hill and gets a little worse every month 

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

I think its worth pointing out as well - that many of the problems on Sky+ are caused by bad data as well.

But I disagree that Sky+ data is not getting worse.

I've had more problems during the past couple of months than ever before.


----------



## OzSat

WWE Smackdown - (failed to Record) 

Good old TiVo got it OK.



Just noticed that the reason given was "schedule changed"

So Sky+ failed to record any of the 9pm showing because it was changed to 9.05pm start.


----------



## 1575

Even stranger...............it recorded alright for me


----------



## OzSat

I usually go for the late-night show - but has Sky+ had nothing to do - I set the 9pm version.


----------



## mike9876

Hi 

Can anybody help me. My sky+ planner is showing I have 29% free space, but when i add up all my recorded programmes they add up 45% so I should have 55% free. How can I corrected this so the sky+ reads the correct amount of free space. It seem that this a problem sky+ are having. 

The other question is how to change the hard drive, well I know how to fit a hard drive but what drives will be reconised and whats the largest size I can use and what is the largest size sky+ will recognise. If sky+ will only recognise a 40GB and I install a 120GB will it still use the other 80GB.

Thanks for anyhelp given.


Mike


----------



## kitschcamp

Had that with mine just this last week - it seems to happen after a few failed recordings...

Rebuilding the planner doesn't work; it needs a full reset to get the amount of free space back up to 100%, but of course you lose all your recordings in the process.

All this is with the standard 40GB drive, with other sizes I don't know.


----------



## Automan

http://www.carat-events.co.uk/pdfs/Mark Wood Presentation.pdf describes the impact caused by advert skipping (low it claims) and compares it with other products plus a mention of future Sky+ addons.

Item spotted by a Digitalspy person.

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

Good old Sky+ - it seems to think that Monday's 7.30pm episode of Coronation Street was the last in the series.


----------



## iankb

Wishful thinking?


----------



## Automan

As we all know several mainstream programs have not been shown over the xmas / new year break.

Stargate
Stargate Atlantis
Battlestar Galactica

Did Sky+'s new enhanced Series link option cope with these okay - YES! 

Series links are also better than Tivo EPG for shows like clickonline, The DVD Collection, Top Gear etc where the innaccurate Tivo EPG keeps recording the same episodes time and time again.

I know folks report all the growing Tivo EPG errors in the relevant thread but I think the only people it helps are fellow forum members who read that thread.

I don't think anyone from Tribune or whoever does the EPG now takes any note of any comments made.

Series Links still however are not perfect, but with millions of users relying on them, they can only really get better.

Of course, when Sky HD starts, I understand its EPG will be truly amazing and put the old Sky epg to shame.

Automan.


----------



## the_hut

Without being too much of a TiVo fanboy:



> Did Sky+'s new enhanced Series link option cope with these okay - YES!


Surely "Sky +'s new, slightly closer to actually working Series link option" would be a more accurate description than "enhanced." Or is it fair to describe something as "enhanced" just because it now has marginally fewer bugs?


----------



## OzSat

I still have to reset 'The Invaders' every two weeks - as Sky+ can't seem to cope with it.

The Series Link seems to be the biggest weak point in the Sky+ system.


----------



## Automan

Yes, I must admit Series links still are poor (but better than have been) plus they are not all under the control of one provider which makes them worse.

So far, my Invaders one has been okay and have never had to reset / put it back.

Not confirmed of course but the EPG with Sky's new HD service will all go via a central portal to maintain a higher standard of data accuracy and of course true program start/end time keeping.

Automan.


----------



## kitschcamp

Yeah, trying to set something like The Dakar for 2005 is next to impossible. No series links at all on some channels...


----------



## OzSat

A couple of times I have found a 'Series Link' turns into the programme preceeding the one which had the link set.

So it records one or two fine, that sets up a recording for a different programme the following week.


----------



## Automan

Yes, each "series link" in the EPG has a unique identifier code.
These also sometimes applied to chain movies together e.g. Errol Flynn season on BBC2.

It gets more complicated on UK Gold and Sci-fi channel who show the same programs more than once a day.

e.g. The Pretender - Sci-Fi

The 13:00 showing needs one code and the 19:00 ones need another (else they would both get recorded).

However, sometimes two content providers seem to use the same unique code.

Thus when the Sky+ record engine sweeps the EPG once an hour (looking at the hard disc series link linkers) and at the start of a series link recording looking for matches it sometimes finds the same code from another channel and starts to record the wrong program.

With luck they will fix this by adding a channel identifier to this code so even if the BBC and Sky One used the same code it will no longer matter.

Automan.


----------



## blindlemon

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *Of course, when Sky HD starts, I understand its EPG will be truly amazing and put the old Sky epg to shame.*


 It won't have to be "amazing" to do that


----------



## Automan

All,
Make sure when you get your new HD TV's that it has a HDMI input to make best use of Sky's forthcoming HDTV.

Also it must be HDCP (High Definition Content Protection) compliant.

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=7347

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Those of you with Sky+ may have noted that recordings of Sky One now use a lot more disc space.

It seems Sky have increased the data rate of their "Flagship" channel.

First spotted by Digitalspy forum mebers who can no longer record 20hrs of Sky One on their standard Sky+ boxes.

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *First spotted by Digitalspy forum mebers who can no longer record 20hrs of Sky One on their standard Sky+ boxes.*


Hmmm are you sure he just hasn't lost some recording capacity because of that bug that has been lingering around like a bad smell for the last few years?


----------



## GarySargent

> _Originally posted by Automan _
> *I don't think anyone from Tribune or whoever does the EPG now takes any note of any comments made. *


I can state as matter of fact that they do.


----------



## Automan

> _Originally posted by GarySargent _
> *Hmmm are you sure he just hasn't lost some recording capacity because of that bug that has been lingering around like a bad smell for the last few years?  *


I have set my box to record the X-Files on Sky One and FX289 and will compare results.

Also pleased to hear program listing errors are investigated.

However, I think my bedroom Tivo still says it is going to record about eight episodes of ClickOnline in one weekend.

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

I would imagine that episode linking information is much harder to verify than simple "this programme is wrong, x is on not y". Tribune can't just assume everything reported is correct information.


----------



## Automan

Sky One recordings do indeed use more space and watching today's early Stargate epsiodes I can see no mpeg effects on any scene or fade in / out.

It may be my imagination but I think the sound in Dolby Prologic II sounds more "surroundy"

X-Files 56mins Sky One Used 3%
X-Files 66mins FX Used 2%

Automan.


----------



## iankb

With reference to Tribune's checking, I do find it irritating at the increasing number of times that the programmes on a +1 channel (e.g. E4 and E4P1) are treated as different episodes/series to the base channel. There is absolutely no excuse for not automating that correctly.


----------



## Automan

I have my Sky+ and upstairs Tivo set to record "One Foot In The Grave" on BBC1

Last night BBC1 were running nearly 20minutes late due to late breaking news about some trial in the USA.

Results were

Tivo - Missed most of the episode 
Sky+ - Caught the whole episode with 6 minutes of next program 

Both devices set to start -2 add +5

So yes dynamic changes to EPG data can indeed work and allow a recording to be recorded 100%

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

I have Doctor Who and Confidential set to record on TiVo and Sky+.

TiVo got them both - Sky+ lost first 10 minutes of Confidential!


----------



## kitschcamp

Whilst I had mine I found that recording 2 BBC channels at the same time gave the best chance of at least one either continuously recording for hours on end or not starting and stopping at the correct times.


----------



## iankb

Automan said:


> I have my Sky+ and upstairs Tivo set to record "One Foot In The Grave" on BBC1 ...
> 
> Tivo - Missed most of the episode
> Sky+ - Caught the whole episode with 6 minutes of next program


15 - Love 



ozsat said:


> I have Doctor Who and Confidential set to record on TiVo and Sky+.
> 
> TiVo got them both - Sky+ lost first 10 minutes of Confidential!


15 All.


----------



## Automan

My Sky+ recorded Doctor Who (BBC1) and Confidential (BBC3) without any problems.

All my Tivo's seem to do is record "click online" hundreads of times a week (well several anyway).

Even when set just to keep one, it still just keeps recording them again and again due to the quality program guide data.

Now back to season 1 of "Branded" - Bitter Creek if anyone remembers....
http://members.tripod.com/~northfork/branded.html

Automan.


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## sanderton

Automan said:


> All my Tivo's seem to do is record "click online" hundreads of times a week (well several anyway).


If you use my dedupe hack you can cut it to one a day automatically.


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## OzSat

My SP for Corrie disappeared this week - seems as if many other people lost lots of SPs on ITV1 this week.

At least with TiVo it can come back.


----------



## Automan

New third generation Pace Sky+ box (non HD) is out now with larger drive which some claim has reserved space for content to be downloaded by Sky.

Most of my series links seem to work okay and click online gets recorded once a week 

Automan.


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## cwaring

Automan said:


> All my Tivo's seem to do is record "click online" hundreads of times a week (well several anyway).


How many millions and millions of times have you been told not to exxagerate 

Anyway, a KUID and KAM 1 does the trick for me


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## OzSat

On Saturday evening - my Corrie SP was there because I had re-added it. Only other two SPs on Sky+ are Coast and Extras.

On Sunday morning I find that my Corrie SP has gone but as compensation - it recorded CBS News on Sky News.  

This may also explain how it had recorded an odd overnight Sky News programme during the week.

I never record news programmes.


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## PhoenixGB

Hi all,

just joined the forum, i have had Sky+ from almost the day it was released and i love it, however it does have its drawbacks, HDD size for one - yes i know i can change the HDD but its not the way i wanna go.

I also have a DLINK DSM-320, briliiant piece of kit for the money! See the DLINK site.

Which i have conected to my main server and store divx and vobs from dvds on, works just fine...

So heres my question... i have seen various comments and posts saying that Tivo works with Sky+, i would like to be able to series link my fave shows and transfer from Tivo DIRECTLY to my Media Server, i know Tivo can transfer shows to HDD but how does it all work with Sky+ and where the hell am i gonna put all the damn remotes!! lol

Any help/advice or comments greatly appreciated.

NOOB - PhoenixGB


----------



## cyril

PhoenixGB said:


> Hi all,
> 
> just joined the forum, i have had Sky+ from almost the day it was released and i love it, however it does have its drawbacks, HDD size for one - yes i know i can change the HDD but its not the way i wanna go.
> 
> I also have a DLINK DSM-320, briliiant piece of kit for the money! See the DLINK site.
> 
> Which i have conected to my main server and store divx and vobs from dvds on, works just fine...
> 
> So heres my question... i have seen various comments and posts saying that Tivo works with Sky+, i would like to be able to series link my fave shows and transfer from Tivo DIRECTLY to my Media Server, i know Tivo can transfer shows to HDD but how does it all work with Sky+ and where the hell am i gonna put all the damn remotes!! lol
> 
> Any help/advice or comments greatly appreciated.
> 
> NOOB - PhoenixGB


TiVo can be upgraded to 800GB, can have a network card and transfer shows to your PC. However direct show transfer cannot be discussed in this forum. Google for database of deals TiVo.

The TiVo can control Sky+ and change channels directly using its infrared blaster and wands.

Get a Harmony or MX-500 remote to control the lot.


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## OzSat

Seems a lot of people have had problems with Sky+ since the latest software update.

Some are reporting that all their recordings have gone - Chris Moyles said this as well on the air this week.

Lock ups and other problems are also being reported.

Looks as if the problems are with Pace V2.


I've not had problems with V1.


----------



## iankb

PhoenixGB said:


> ... how does it all work with Sky+


The TiVo really needs 100% control of the STB, and so it works much better with a standard digibox, or a Sky+ working in digibox mode only. The problem is that, with only one output on Sky+, you can't really watch a live Sky channel, or watch a Sky+ recording, without corrupting any recording that the TiVo is trying to make.

A mirror sub with a standard digibox is probably the best solution if you wish to use both Sky+ and the TiVo.


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## Automan

Part of the Sky "masterplan" to force punters to go Sky HD 

My V2 does not seem to have suffered to much with just one old recording playing a bit glitchy.

The new PIN feature seems to be the main cause of complaint for homeowners with no young children.

Sky+ now makes you enter the pin number every time you want to play a 15 or 18 item before the watershed.

Also it is now required for every manual recording at any time.
This even includes radio recordings...

I also BTW prefer the old menu colours.

Automan.


ozsat said:


> Seems a lot of people have had problems with Sky+ since the latest software update.
> 
> Some are reporting that all their recordings have gone - Chris Moyles said this as well on the air this week.
> 
> Lock ups and other problems are also being reported.
> 
> Looks as if the problems are with Pace V2.
> 
> I've not had problems with V1.


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## mrtickle

Automan said:


> Part of the Sky "masterplan" to force punters to go Sky HD


Either that, or a materplan to drive customers away! I didn't hear Chris Moyles but if he complained, at least that goes a tiny way to balancing out all the guideline-breaching free advertising that he's given Sky+ on the BBC so far.


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## dr snuggles

cyril said:


> TiVo can be upgraded to 800GB, can have a network card and transfer shows to your PC. However direct show transfer cannot be discussed in this forum. Google for database of deals TiVo.
> 
> The TiVo can control Sky+ and change channels directly using its infrared blaster and wands.
> 
> Get a Harmony or MX-500 remote to control the lot.


Hi Cyril!
Can you please explain exactly (in detail) how to enable Tivo to control Sky plus 160!
I have tried lots of different codes but nothing seems to work!

Cheers in advance!

JD


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## sanderton

Grundig 20018 from memory?


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## OzSat

I see that many Sky+ users found that it gave error messages for their 'Little Britain' recordings.


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## gregh

hi all,

I possibly have a chance to get a Sky+ box from the refer a friend scheme.

The biggest pro is that I can loose my Tivo box, and reduce the under the TV clutter!

Has anyone done a recent comparison on Sky+ vs Tivo? 

The biggest thing that put me off last time was series links, if I understand it correctly, using Top Gear as an example, Tivo will record the current series of Top Gear, and then when it re-starts in 2006 it will carry on recording that.

How does Sky+ currently cope with long term series links?

regards,

Greg


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## nva

Hi gregh, I bought Sky+ this summer after my Tivo blew up, and have been suffering ever since. Sky+ relies on Series Links, which operate like Tivo's Seasons Pass, but are reliant on broadcasters issuing a Series Link, so where Tivo would keep your Seasons Pass between one series and the next (days, or weeks, or months), Sky+ doesn't. It is so bad that if, say, a series on BBC1 misses a week (eg because of Wimbledon, or Children In Need), you lose the request! If this happens and you don't spot it, it makes the whole feature a waste of time. I think this is because the software is totally different, Tivo is far, far better. I have written to Sky about their system's weakness, to no avail. I've now had my Tivo repaired, and am looking to see if I can hook it up with Sky+. Has anyone succeeded in doing this? My aim is to then record the series I'm most upset at "losing", onto Tivo, and one-offs on Sky+.


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## Raisltin Majere

gregh said:


> The biggest pro is that I can loose my Tivo box,


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## lor

I use both Tivo and an original Pace Sky+
Both work great together. The only problem is that you cannot watch a programme that has been recorded on Sky+ while the Tivo is recording something. If you are already watching a programme when Tivo starts to record the programme you are watching will instantly stop as Tivo takes control. Now when I want to watch Sky+ recorded programmes I just have a quick check that the red light is not lit on the Tivo. If it is then have to wait a bit.
Chris


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## sanderton

Quite a big problem, that!


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## Automan

A nice chap at the Digitalspy has posted some screens of a Sky+ on EPG4
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showpost.php?p=6842558&postcount=10

You will see the planner is now green button rather than zero and a recording can be booked from an onscreen hotlink.

Also, display only favourite channels plus an increase from 20 I think to 50?

Automan.


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## OzSat

The screenshot says "set reminder" rather than "set record" - which are different options.

I hope it does a "set record" rather then "set reminder" - as I never use reminders as it defeats the whole object a recording.



Edit: Further screenshots imply that these selected programmes are actually put into a list to act upon before recording.


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## MikeMcr

Nice idea but I wonder if you will get the hotlink when watching from a recording or it only works from live tv. I suspect the later.


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## steveroe

Sky Digi Online is reporting two new features on the way:



> Sky have confirmed to Sky Digi Online that they are planning to launch two new services later this year.
> 
> SMS to record programme
> This service will give Sky+ customers the ability to send a text message to Sky to record programs for you. This can be done by sending a text message to Sky or by booking a Sky+ recording via Sky by Mobile application.
> 
> Launch date: Spring 2006
> 
> Add programmes to Sky planner direct from trailer
> This new feature will allow Sky customers to add programmes during a programme trailer to the Sky personal planner. By pressing the 'green' button during a trailer, the advertised programme will automatically be added to the personal planner on your Sky Guide.
> 
> Launch date: First half of 2006
> 
> Both services are currently in testing.


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## Automan

I like many other Sky+ owners have EPG4
The favorite channel list now has limit of 50 from 20
You can display the TV Guide only showing your favorite channels
Entering the Sky+ planner is now more of a pain, now TV Guide and Green button

Operation of the menus does seem faster than the last release.

I am yet to see an onscreen prompt to add / record a program so no comment on that feature.

Automan.


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## Automan

I have just also noted that Sky Reminders work prompting you to press the green button.

This takes you to a list of showings of the program also with the option to record or just mark for a reminder at showing time.

However not sure if these are availble from a recording rather than Live TV.

Also all the Sky movie channels now seem to be Dolby Digital capable 

Automan.


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## blindlemon

I heard the other day that Sly+ is unable to play back a recording if the satellite feed is out due to bad weather.... 

Can this really be true, or is it just another urban myth started by a TiVo enthusiast?


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## Raisltin Majere

Dunno. But i heard that as well. Don't understand why that would happen though?


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## blindlemon

...back to undergarments again


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## Automan

Yes, the box needs to check your subscription to the channel the program was from is valid.

Can't say I ever get any reception problems and thus have not had an issue with this.

Automan.


blindlemon said:


> I heard the other day that Sly+ is unable to play back a recording if the satellite feed is out due to bad weather....
> 
> Can this really be true, or is it just another urban myth started by a TiVo enthusiast?


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## blindlemon

Fantastic! If I had a valid subscription to the channel when I recorded it, I'd want to be able to watch it whenever I liked. 

Of course, that's yet another benefit of my TiVo: I can record something from Sky Box Office and watch it again, and again, and again.... 

(oh yes, and it may just happen to find its way onto my PC too....)


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## OzSat

I think on Sky+, defaulting to set record would have been better.



Automan said:


> I have just also noted that Sky Reminders work prompting you to press the green button.
> 
> This takes you to a list of showings of the program also with the option to record or just mark for a reminder at showing time.
> 
> However not sure if these are availble from a recording rather than Live TV.
> 
> Also all the Sky movie channels now seem to be Dolby Digital capable
> 
> Automan.


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## Automan

The new Green Sky Reminders do only work when watching LiveTV

Thus with Sky+ it's a waste of time and with Tivo its just another annoying on-screen DOG.

Automan.


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## Michael Gwynn

kmusgrave said:


> So we have to have both? OK - sounds fine to me.....
> 
> Kevin


sounds fine to me, too


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## MAPR

I have just been recommended to buy a (refurb) TIVO as I am moving to a new build flat where I can't get a 2nd feed for my Sky Plus. 

Is it correct I can use my Sky plus box with one LNB input as a normal digibox and then connect the TIVO. Is it a simple as that - Will the TIVO be able to control the Sky plus box, or do I need to buy a normal digibox? Is there anything else i need to know using the TIVO with a single feed Sky +!

thanks very much!


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## katman

MAPR said:


> I have just been recommended to buy a (refurb) TIVO as I am moving to a new build flat where I can't get a 2nd feed for my Sky Plus.


Cant find the link at the moment but there is a set of gizmos to overcome just a problem. One fits at the LNB and shifts one LNB feed up by 2GHz so that it sits above the normal LNB feed. A second unit at the receiver end down shifts the feed again so that you have two feeds for the SKY+ box.

No personal experience but will try and find the link.

Regards

Keith


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## MAPR

katman said:


> Cant find the link at the moment but there is a set of gizmos to overcome just a problem. One fits at the LNB and shifts one LNB feed up by 2GHz so that it sits above the normal LNB feed. A second unit at the receiver end down shifts the feed again so that you have two feeds for the SKY+ box.
> 
> No personal experience but will try and find the link.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Keith


thanks, but this is a large development and they will not allow any access at the LNB end (the dish is actually on another building to the one I will be living in.)


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## katman

MAPR said:


> thanks, but this is a large development and they will not allow any access at the LNB end (the dish is actually on another building to the one I will be living in.)


In which case someone needs to tell them about SKY+ and the fact that it needs two cables. I am surprised that the SMATV contactor didnt make provision for two feeds to each flat. Its VERY shortsighted.

Having said that I looked at a showhouse about five years ago and adjacent to the TV Aerial socket was a SINGLE 13A socket. I dont know ANYONE who doesnt have a VCR or Satellite receiver at the main TV location meaning a double 13A socket at the minimum.


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## Automan

Those clever folks over at the DigitalSpy have written a utility (and setup a website) for a utility to backup / upgrade your Sky+ hard drive.

http://www.artisswebdesign.co.uk/copyplus/index.php

Automan.


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## OzSat

Sky+ decided that tonight's Coronation Street was in two parts and only the first part was a part of the series.

Not really a Sky+ problem - but wrong data from ITV.


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## KALF

How do I record 1 pgm on Tivo from Sky+ while watching another Sky channel ?

Sorry for being a simple person.

Can I do this without a Tivo account?


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## KALF

I am trying to get access to Sky+ pgms that I have recorded - but since getting Sky HD it means fiddling with cables and not being able to record on HD other pgms while watching the old recordings on Sky+.

So I thought I would do the bulk "Copy" from Sky+ onto Tivo and then watch them via the Sky HD (getting round the encryption).

I do not have a Tivo account anymore.

Unfortunately, although I can see what is playing on the Sky+ box from Tivo I can't get TIVO to record. (I can do a manual record on channels that were set up while I still had a Tivo account) 

Can anyone suggest either

a) a more elegant solution to be able to watch the remaining pgms on Sky+ but still record new pgms on SkyHD box
or
b) enable Tivo to record the old pgms from Sky+ without getting paying the £10 per month with Tivo.


Thnaks


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## sanderton

You can do a manual record - it doesn't matter which channel TiVo thinks its recording so long as it's one it will access from the SCART socket, it will just record whatever it is presented with on the SCART AUX input (not VCR input). You'd need to set up a manual recording long enough to capture all the shows in one go if you were to use the bulk copy.



> How do I record 1 pgm on Tivo from Sky+ while watching another Sky channel ?


You can't; Sky+ can only output one thing at a time.


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## KALF

sanderton said:


> You can do a manual record - it doesn't matter which channel TiVo thinks its recording so long as it's one it will access from the SCART socket, it will just record whatever it is presented with on the SCART AUX input (not VCR input). You'd need to set up a manual recording long enough to capture all the shows in one go if you were to use the bulk copy.


Thanks for that .. when I try to record by pressing the record button then it does record anything.

When I record using the planned future recording ... the scart isn't an option and it records a black screen.

I don't have a Tivo account.


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## Automan

Also beware that most recordings made on Sky+ from Sky premium channels will no longer playback anyway if the viewing card in the box has changed from the one used / inserted when the box made the recordings.

Automan.


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## KALF

Automan said:


> Also beware that most recordings made on Sky+ from Sky premium channels will no longer playback anyway if the viewing card in the box has changed from the one used / inserted when the box made the recordings.
> 
> Automan.


I have the same card in the SkyHD box as I had in Sky+ and I have been able to swap it back successfully (so far!!)


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## sanderton

KALF said:


> Thanks for that .. when I try to record by pressing the record button then it does record anything.
> 
> When I record using the planned future recording ... the scart isn't an option and it records a black screen.
> 
> I don't have a Tivo account.


The record button will make a 30 minute timed recording; it's not like a VCR.

I note on another thread you have the Sky box plugged in to the VCR SCART; that won't work, it has to be the AUX SCART.

Choose any channel to record which on your TiVo's normal setup would be a channel on the set top box.


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## sanderton

KALF said:


> I have the same card in the SkyHD box as I had in Sky+ and I have been able to swap it back successfully (so far!!)


I am surprised by that, they are supposed to be married to the box they are inserted in.


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## KALF

sanderton said:


> The record button will make a 30 minute timed recording; it's not like a VCR.
> 
> I note on another thread you have the Sky box plugged in to the VCR SCART; that won't work, it has to be the AUX SCART.
> 
> Choose any channel to record which on your TiVo's normal setup would be a channel on the set top box.


I have changed the scart from the sky+ to the Aux on my Tivo.

However when I press "record" when Tivo is set to Aux then picture reverts to the Tivo menu.

I tried to record using the manual planner - but there is no option to record the Aux channel.

Any ideas?


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## sanderton

Don't post a question and PM it too!

Is your TiVo set up for terrestrial analogue TV only, or to use a set top box for Freeview or Sky?

If the former, re-run guided setup using an option which uses a settop box.

To record from the AUX input you set the recording on any channel number which is a channel on the STB - it doesn't matter which one. There isn't one labelled "AUX".

You need to be in a position so when watching Live TV you're seeing the output of the Sky box.


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## KALF

It all worked when I re-activated my Tivo acct!

Tho the Sky+ mass "Copy" function hasn't worked and I am transferring pgm by pgm .. still, the overall objective is being achieved


Thanks


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## Automan

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds38943.html

Seems Sky still rule the waves....

Automan.


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## cwaring

It's easy to win a one-horse race


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## ALanJay

cwaring said:


> It's easy to win a one-horse race


Especially when none of the other "pseudo" competitors even provide details of the number of units they sell.

The interesting thing about HD is how this launch compares to the numbers in otehr countries in Europe France / Germany etc

I saw recently that premiere in Germany has cut its HD output from 3 to 2 channels.


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## Automan

As you may know "Life On Mars" was not on BBC1 this week for a football match (also shown on BBC HD).

Anyway to confirm I had a series link set to record this and even with a 14 day gap between episodes the next episode is now set to record.

Also you can now set Sky+ and Sky HD boxes to make a recording from http://www.sky.com (under TV Guide) as well of course from virtually any make and model mobile phone.

As long as my box does not start recording "Dossa and Joe" I will be happy 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/05/24/bbc_hijacks_tivo_recorders (if you don't recall that landmark in UK Tivo history).

Automan.


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## TCM2007

That's been the case for about two years hasn't it? (14 day serie slinks that is)


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## Automan

Yes, but it's the first time I have actually seen it work 

Automan.


TCM2007 said:


> That's been the case for about two years hasn't it? (14 day serie slinks that is)


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## Automan

And 250,000 Sky HD boxes after just one year.

Just imagine where Tivo would be in the UK with that kind of market share?

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=9192 for source article.

Lastly how long will commercial TV survive with 20% plus of Sky customers having the option to skip them?

Automan.


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## healeydave

Yeah but lets face it, they have a captive audience, being the only main stream UK Satellite option. 

Not only that, but we are in a time in the UK where digital tv is being forced down people throats due to the analog switch-off campaign and for many Digital TV adopters, they are the only option! (if there's no Cable or Freeview available)

I would also note that a good proportion of the Sky+ adoption over the last 12 months is simply people replacing their existing kit and not necessarily going out and purchasing a PVR technology!

Sky are in a position now to basically offer a Sky+ box as the main set-top-box whether the customer intended to go that route or not.

None of us expected anything else if we are honest. They have such an enviable Unique market place at the moment, they could make even a crap product a success! (sorry make that ARE making a crap product a success) 

I honestly believe even a monkey in charge of making Sky+ / HD a success wouldn't have any trouble!


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## iankb

healeydave said:


> I honestly believe even a monkey in charge of making Sky+ / HD a success wouldn't have any trouble!


Is that the same monkey as designed them? 

I also note that Sky had a significantly-increased number of cancellations during that period. One wonders how well they would have done overall if people hadn't had to move from Virgin.


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## aerialplug

healeydave said:


> I would also note that a good proportion of the Sky+ adoption over the last 12 months is simply people replacing their existing kit and not necessarily going out and purchasing a PVR technology!


True - and I'd probably cancel the Sky+ service if I was able to, but I'm contractually obliged to maintain it for a year.

What really hacks me at the moment are the multiplay logos appearing during popular programmes telling people they can watch the programme using the multiplay facility. However, as the person is already watching the programme, why tell them they can use multiplay... ?

Ok, I see the logic of advertising the service's presence - but up until now, red dot reminders have only appeared when the adverts finish and quickly go away (if you've got that option enabled). Sky however seem to think the multiplay DOG is extra important and make it re-appear during the programme.


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## AMc

I heard an analyst from Jupiter on Radio 2 on Monday around 7pm talking about Digital TV, Video on Demand and DVR. He said even the most committed users that they had interviewed only watched 40% of their viewing from playback or VOD which means they spend 60% watching 'live TV' (yuk!). He must be talking primarily about Sky+ a V+ users. There's still a marketing opportunity for never watching an advert and never being forced to watch "what's on" again.

[edited out ancient news story from the BBC]

And the product marketing manager for SkyHD wasn't a monkey when I met him just before they launched .


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## aerialplug

One thing that I really found frustrating is that the SkyHD user interface isn't in HD. If they used HD, they'd be able to give the EPG the resolution needed to show a decent number of programmes along the timeline, not the clumsy EPG that's currently on offer on all Sky platforms.


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## iankb

aerialplug said:


> One thing that I really found frustrating is that the SkyHD user interface isn't in HD. If they used HD, they'd be able to give the EPG the resolution needed to show a decent number of programmes along the timeline, not the clumsy EPG that's currently on offer on all Sky platforms.


Although MCE has its faults, it makes a lot more use of the screen real estate than a Series 1 TiVo, even on a CRT TV with no HD. While it does look much clearer on an LCD or plasma, it's use of variable font-sizes, better graphics, and PIP, is still viewable on a CRT.

Nothing that a Series 3 TiVo couldn't do, but maybe the more advanced (and expensive) graphics chip and CPU used within a PC is the answer there. However, given the low-cost of recent PC motherboards, and the onboard graphics, maybe a more modern interface isn't that expensive. Maybe it is the software-based font-antialiasing provided by Windows ClearType that makes the difference, and a Linux-based computer can't handle that. However, while I hate to say it, my TiVo Series 1 interface is looking very dated and inefficient, even if still quite superior to Sky+ and bottom-end Freeview-based DVR's.

While the economics of a 50MHz RISC processor in the TiVo once made sense, the cost of the PC architecture has fallen so much now, it must be possible for future TiVo's to invest in more CPU-intensive interface, or be an alternative software product or operating system for running on the PC architecture. Maybe they should be developing MCE plug-ins that could add all of those intelligent features that MCE doesn't have.


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## iankb

AMc said:


> And the product marketing manager for SkyHD wasn't a monkey when I met him just before they launched


Sure it wasn't a monkey in a suit? Did he have a beard? 

Actually, while I hate to admit it, there is nothing wrong with Sky's marketing of the products that they have. Only the decision that somebody makes as to what is a marketable product. I suspect that the bean-counters are ultimately responsible for that decision, and they're probably still using quills and parchment by candlelight.


----------

