# 20.4.6 bug, Roamio reboots when attempting to tune SDV channels



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Cable Provider: Cox
CableCard: SA M-Stream HW 1.2 "F" 
SDV Box: Cisco STA1520

I just got 20.4.6 last night, and ever since then I have been getting reboots that at first seem random (And initially in a loop). 

After I disconnected the SDV box entirely from USB and Coax, I rebooted and made sure all 6 tuners were set to a non-SDV channels. That seems to have stabilized it, but regardless of whether the SDV box is connected to the TiVo or not, if I attempt to tune to an SDV channel it will immediately reboot.

Can I get a rollback from 20.4.6? I frankly cannot be a guine pig for this release if I can't use my TiVo in any meaningful way.


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

This doesn't sound good. I did not sign-up for the Priority Update, and have not been updated yet.
If the TA's USB cable is disconnected, the TiVo downloads the CableCARD channel lineup, which is a separate mapping, so the TA is completely taken out of the equation, at this point the TiVo should not have any info regarding SDV channels or frequencies. The TiVo would only see that channel as empty with no mapping association.

Off Topic:
I was going to ask in the power saving thread if any of the new settings especially the ones that turn the HDD off were affecting the Tuning Adapters.


----------



## 59er (Mar 27, 2008)

I have had OnePass for two weeks, and never had a spontaneous reboot.


----------



## goman (Dec 16, 2004)

I have Cox and SDV channels are also causing a reboot that started Wednesday morning but I have 20.4.5c on my Tivo. I have had Cox come over and they have said 5 other Tivo users have the same problem. Cox also said they are working with Tivo regarding this problem. They will call me today about it.


----------



## zaphodbeeblebrox (Feb 14, 2015)

Ugh... Sounds like I have one more thing to be in fear about with 20.4.6, when it comes around.

Knowing what I've skimmed from the mayhem in the other 20.4.6 threads, I've taken some pre-update measures, like removing all padding, and pruning down my SP list, as I've been using both multiple SPs for many programs, plus using Record Everything on a select few. Those options will be sorely missed. The latter has no viable workaround, for my usage.

I sure hope the next time I look around, there aren't more reports of anything as bad as this sounds (something there seems no prepping to be done for, only hoping and bracing).


----------



## goman (Dec 16, 2004)

zaphodbeeblebrox said:


> Ugh... Sounds like I have one more thing to be in fear about with 20.4.6, when it comes around.
> 
> Knowing what I've skimmed from the mayhem in the other 20.4.6 threads, I've taken some pre-update measures, like removing all padding, and pruning down my SP list, as I've been using both multiple SPs for many programs, plus using Record Everything on a select few. Those options will be sorely missed. The latter has no viable workaround, for my usage.
> 
> I sure hope the next time I look around, there aren't more reports of anything as bad as this sounds (something there seems no prepping to be done for, only hoping and bracing).


I don't think it is a 20.4.6 bug. I have 20.4.5c and my Tivo crashes the same way as Philmatic's Tivo.


----------



## zaphodbeeblebrox (Feb 14, 2015)

goman said:


> I don't think it is a 20.4.6 bug. I have 20.4.5c and my Tivo crashes the same way as Philmatic's Tivo.


Could still be related to something TiVo is pulling the strings on through the TiVo Service, as not all things must be done with an update.

They might have had code in 20.4.5c (or even earlier), and left it dormant, perhaps only waking it up once 20.4.6 started going out. TiVo has made some mistakes in the past, with what boxes should have something updated/enabled/changed, and which ones shouldn't.

I'll just have to keep a watchful eye on things, which I already need to be doing, anyway. I'll add "check TA logs for new/unusual errors" to the list, even if nothing as extreme as rebooting happens.


----------



## snoopdogg1 (Sep 24, 2008)

My Roamio Pro has been acting VERY strange since the latest update. When I am watching Live TV, it is really annoying that every 2-3 minutes, the video and audio will cut out for 30-60 seconds (this is on a regular network channel). Then it will come back on. There is no buffer when it comes back on, so I know it's not related to my TV set. Luckily it is not the FULL TiVo 5 minute reboot, just 30-60 seconds of black screen.

I do have a tuning adapter. I reset both it and the TiVo, but my problems continue. It also didn't record a show I had set up because of this bug. I really don't know what to do at this point.


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

goman said:


> I have Cox and SDV channels are also causing a reboot that started Wednesday morning but I have 20.4.5c on my Tivo. I have had Cox come over and they have said 5 other Tivo users have the same problem. Cox also said they are working with Tivo regarding this problem. They will call me today about it.


Thank you for responding! I have kept the SDV box unplugged and it seems ot be a bit more stable, although it still reboots if it tries to tune an SDV channel.

Keep me updated!


----------



## Holazola (Dec 22, 2005)

Same issue here w/ Cox cable Santa Barbara. Super Frustrating!
I have version 20.4.5c & Same symptoms as listed above, but after a few times, my Roamio got stuck in a reboot loop. I was able to finally break the loop only after disconnecting the SDV USB cable AND removing my cablecard.


----------



## goman (Dec 16, 2004)

Holazola said:


> Same issue here w/ Cox cable Santa Barbara. Super Frustrating!
> I have version 20.4.5c & Same symptoms as listed above, but after a few times, my Roamio got stuck in a reboot loop. I was able to finally break the loop only after disconnecting the SDV USB cable AND removing my cablecard.


I'm in Goleta and they came by today and checked some settings on my Tivo. Unfortunately I wasn't home but was told they were checking other Tivos in the city and will contact us again by Monday.

I never had to remove the cablecard to get rid of the loop though.

One thing I have noticed 1022 - CNN is a SDV channel but the Roamio does not reset itself watching that channel. Flip it up one to 1023, Tivo crashes.


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Holazola said:


> Same issue here w/ Cox cable Santa Barbara. Super Frustrating!
> I have version 20.4.5c & Same symptoms as listed above, but after a few times, my Roamio got stuck in a reboot loop. I was able to finally break the loop only after disconnecting the SDV USB cable AND removing my cablecard.





goman said:


> I'm in Goleta and they came by today and checked some settings on my Tivo. Unfortunately I wasn't home but was told they were checking other Tivos in the city and will contact us again by Monday.
> 
> I never had to remove the cablecard to get rid of the loop though.


Santa Barbara here... I wasn't expecting it to be a regional issue. Weird.


----------



## snoopdogg1 (Sep 24, 2008)

Resetting my Tuning adapter seemed to fix my problem! I unplugged both the power cable and the USB cable in the back of the TA for 30 seconds, then plugged back in. No more resets every 1-2 minutes.


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

snoopdogg1 said:


> Resetting my Tuning adapter seemed to fix my problem! I unplugged both the power cable and the USB cable in the back of the TA for 30 seconds, then plugged back in. No more resets every 1-2 minutes.


Can you try to tune an SDV channel specifically? Like MSNBC (1042) or Comedy Central (1062)? It should instantly reboot.


----------



## snoopdogg1 (Sep 24, 2008)

Mine must be different. I tried those channels, and they are not available.

But at least my Tivo tuner doesn't keep turning off every 1-2 minutes. I am happy about that!

[


Philmatic said:


> Can you try to tune an SDV channel specifically? Like MSNBC (1042) or Comedy Central (1062)? It should instantly reboot.


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Nope, rebooted everything and waiting until everything initialized. Tried to tune to an SDV channel and it worked for like 2 seconds then rebooted.

Meh, this sucks.


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

For those in Santa Barbara w/ Cox, did you receive a CC or TA firmware update in the last week?

They should be the following:
SA/Cisco CC OS Vers: PKEY1.5.3_F.p.1301

Cisco TA FLASH: STA1.0.0_1520_LR_F.2001


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

zaphodbeeblebrox said:


> Could still be related to something TiVo is pulling the strings on through the TiVo Service, as not all things must be done with an update.
> 
> They might have had code in 20.4.5c (or even earlier), and left it dormant, perhaps only waking it up once 20.4.6 started going out. TiVo has made some mistakes in the past, with what boxes should have something updated/enabled/changed, and which ones shouldn't.
> 
> I'll just have to keep a watchful eye on things, which I already need to be doing, anyway. I'll add "check TA logs for new/unusual errors" to the list, even if nothing as extreme as rebooting happens.


Or it could be cox and the stupid technology of sdv. It's stupid and so glad Mediacom has no intention of going to!


----------



## Holazola (Dec 22, 2005)

CoxInPHX said:


> For those in Santa Barbara w/ Cox, did you receive a CC or TA firmware update in the last week?
> 
> They should be the following:
> SA/Cisco CC OS Vers: PKEY1.5.3_F.p.1301
> ...


Well, I just went to check for you. Both the TA and Tivo have been powered up today, but with the TA not connected to the Tivo. The TA has been flashing a slow six-flash all day. I just re-plugged in my TA USB cable, and the Tivo immediatedly rebooted... hmmm. Let me see if I can get the Tivo to stay booted and I'll report my TA and CC firmware versions.


----------



## zaphodbeeblebrox (Feb 14, 2015)

joewom said:


> Or it could be cox and the stupid technology of sdv. It's stupid and so glad Mediacom has no intention of going to!


True. It would not be the first time I've seen an update to a CC/TA firmware come so close to a TiVo update/change, that it was nearly (if not) impossible to tell which one triggered it, or if both played some role.

Good luck folks. I'll be watching for any indications of an issue from whatever angles I can cover.


----------



## Holazola (Dec 22, 2005)

Well, no changes to CC or TA firmware. My versions are the same as listed above. 
FYI, I rebooted the Tivo w/o the TA, tuned to ABC (1003) then booted the TA without changing channels and everything came up. 

I just finished watching a recorded movie, and the Tivo rebooted at both 7:00 pm and 8:00pm exactly, but not 9:00. I am assuming I had shows scheduled at those times that requested a channel that required at TA request & it crashed the Tivo each time. That's all I know for now.


----------



## cmonroe (Sep 1, 2007)

Not to sound like a broken record but I figured I'd throw my "me too" in there. Cox Santa Barbara, TiVo Roamio w/2x TiVo Minis. No 20.4.6 update yet (still on 20.4.5c) however connecting the same TA mentioned above causes an instant reboot. I noticed the TiVo stuck in a reboot loop last Monday night (2/9) and it couldn't have been looping for more than a day. Like other posts mention I am able to connect the TA if no SDV channels are on any of the 6 tuners, but as soon as one changes to request a SDV channel down it goes.


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

I have 2 Roamios with the save exact problems. It started on Feb 11 or 12. Oddly, right after I had Cox Santa Barbara come out and try to fix a signal strength problem. I don't think it has anything to do with the TiVo software update. Both of mine were running 20.4.5. Just this afternoon, one of them updated to 20.4.6. I have both versions running, both TiVos exhibit the same problem. If a SDV channel is selected on one of the tuners, the TiVo reboots. Over and over. 

I have these versions on the TA and cable card. I believe these are both current.

SA/Cisco CC OS Vers: PKEY1.5.3_F.p.1301
Cisco TA FLASH: STA1.0.0_1520_LR_F.2001 

I have spent hours and hours working on this and trying different cabling options. I only found this board this afternoon. 

What a relief to know I am not the only one.

My TiVo's are basically worthless at this point. All I can do is delete all my season passes and scheduled recordings or unplug the TA.


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

Unfortunately it has gone from bad to worse now. Both of my TiVos are in an endless reboot loop. There are things in my season pass list or wish list that are trying to record something on an SDV channel and I cannot even get into the settings to delete everything. so they're basically bricked. I guess I'll just have to check every hour to see if it is stable long enough to access the season pass menus.

Earlier today I could disconnect the power from the TA and at least watch something. Not now. I guess I'll be spending a lot of time on the phone tomorrow.


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

brianmilburn said:


> Unfortunately it has gone from bad to worse now. Both of my TiVos are in an endless reboot loop. There are things in my season pass list or wish list that are trying to record something on an SDV channel and I cannot even get into the settings to delete everything. so they're basically bricked. I guess I'll just have to check every hour to see if it is stable long enough to access the season pass menus.
> 
> Earlier today I could disconnect the power from the TA and at least watch something. Not now. I guess I'll be spending a lot of time on the phone tomorrow.


If you unplug the SDV box and reboot, it'll force the TiVo to not default to the SDV channels in the initial tuning, which is what reboots the TiVo and makes it look like it's an endless loop.

I tweeted Margret and we'll see what she says.


----------



## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

Thanks for alerting me to this. For anyone experiencing this issue, please email your TSN to [email protected] and describe what you're seeing. We'll take a look at the logs and see if we can figure out what is going on. Please use the subject: "reboots with SDV".

--Margret


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

TiVoMargret said:


> Thanks for alerting me to this. For anyone experiencing this issue, please email your TSN to [email protected] and describe what you're seeing. We'll take a look at the logs and see if we can figure out what is going on. Please use the subject: "reboots with SDV".
> 
> --Margret


Incredible response time! Email sent.


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

CoxInPHX said:


> For those in Santa Barbara w/ Cox, did you receive a CC or TA firmware update in the last week?
> 
> They should be the following:
> SA/Cisco CC OS Vers: PKEY1.5.3_F.p.1301
> ...


I was able to confirm that those are the same versions installed on my CC/TA

SA M-Stream HW 1.2 "F", PKEY1.5.3_F.p.1301
Cisco STA1520, STA1.0.0_1520_LR_F.2001


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

Philmatic said:


> I was able to confirm that those are the same versions installed on my CC/TA
> 
> SA M-Stream HW 1.2 "F", PKEY1.5.3_F.p.1301
> Cisco STA1520, STA1.0.0_1520_LR_F.2001


Same here. I don't know when these flashed though. Is there some diag item that says this?


----------



## Holazola (Dec 22, 2005)

email sent to Margret...

Also - some other misc info: 
my TA is Cisco STA1250
I have one TiVo mini attached. I get the same crash pattern as from main unit.
The new channel request is successfully completed by the TA- I see the newly tuned channel for 4 or 5 seconds before the inevitable re-boot.


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

brianmilburn said:


> Same here. I don't know when these flashed though. Is there some diag item that says this?


Unfortunately no, there is not a record on the device when it received the firmware update.

Cox Arizona received them:
SA/Cisco CabelCARD on 07-30-2014
Cisco TA on 09-26-2014

I have Cox in Phoenix, and just received the 20.4.6 OnePass update today, and have not had any issues. The Santa Barbara cable plant must be sending out some bad data in the SDV channel mapping, that would be my guess.

Has it been confirmed that if the TA is completely bypassed, USB cable unplugged and TiVo rebooted, that the rebooting stops?

Things to try:
Pull the CableCARD then reinstall the CableCARD
Pull the CableCARD then reboot and reinstall the CableCARD
Has anyone tried re-running Guided Set-up? 
or a Clear program information & To Do List?


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

I'll cross-post at DSLReports since some tech's monitor that forum.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r29...a-TiVo-Roamio-reboots-when-tuning-SDV-channel


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Philmatic said:


> I'll cross-post at DSLReports since some tech's monitor that forum.
> 
> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r29...a-TiVo-Roamio-reboots-when-tuning-SDV-channel


Send a PM to *"JoshuaCA"* http://www.dslreports.com/useremail/u/1789822 and allert him to the DSLR posting and this one.
He is a well connected Project Manager for Cox California, he is in San Diego.


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

CoxInPHX said:


> Send a PM to *"JoshuaCA"* http://www.dslreports.com/useremail/u/1789822 and allert him to the DSLR posting and this one.
> He is a well connected Project Manager for Cox California, he is in San Diego.


Done. Thanks!


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

CoxInPHX said:


> Has it been confirmed that if the TA is completely bypassed, USB cable unplugged and TiVo rebooted, that the rebooting stops?


The issue manifests itself any time the TiVo attempts to tune an SDV channel, regardless of whether the Tuner is plugged in. I can still make the TiVo reboot by bypassing the TA, rebooting it and attempting to tune an SDV channel.


----------



## bluraven (Dec 25, 2005)

I have Cox in Las Vegas, NV and have received the onepass update. No issues with SDV so far here on a Roamio with a TA and two mini's.


----------



## Holazola (Dec 22, 2005)

Philmatic said:


> The issue manifests itself any time the TiVo attempts to tune an SDV channel, regardless of whether the Tuner is plugged in. I can still make the TiVo reboot by bypassing the TA, rebooting it and attempting to tune an SDV channel.


New info_ I was going to disagree with the above, but I just tried it. TA box to TiVo USB disconnected - Starting at 1003 (ABC) going up I hit a few channels that gave the channel not authorized screen, and blank, but when I hit 1023 (HLN) my TiVo re-booted.

So might be differences between SDV channels that are already "available" vs ones that need a request?


----------



## goman (Dec 16, 2004)

Holazola said:


> New info_ I was going to disagree with the above, but I just tried it. TA box to TiVo USB disconnected - Starting at 1003 (ABC) going up I hit a few channels that gave the channel not authorized screen, and blank, but when I hit 1023 (HLN) my TiVo re-booted.
> 
> So might be differences between SDV channels that are already "available" vs ones that need a request?


Yes I have the same issue. 1022 (CNN) works with Tuning adapter, 1023 (HLN) reboots with or without tuning adapter plugged in.

The reboot is only some SDV channels. I didn't have much time to mess with the Tivo this weekend. I actually wanted to watch channels that worked. But I noticed that the Tivo did not reboot when it was trying to record the Walking Dead on 1028 on Sunday. I had my TA unplugged so it didn't record anything. Nor did it save it either. It is as it never recorded the black screen.


----------



## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

Quick update to say we think we know what is going on in Santa Barbara, and we are testing a fix. For now, if your box is rebooting, please unplug the tuning adapter from the TiVo.

--Margret


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

TiVoMargret said:


> Quick update to say we think we know what is going on in Santa Barbara, and we are testing a fix. For now, if your box is rebooting, please unplug the tuning adapter from the TiVo.
> 
> --Margret


Thank you Margret. In my case I have so many keyword "wish list" items on our two TiVo's, that even unplugging the TA does not work. Whenever it tries to record something on an SDV channel it starts the reboot loop. The only option is to remove all my programming or pull the cable card. So for all intents and purposes, my TiVo's are bricked. They are not usable at all without heroic efforts. I just connected the normal cable to the TVs and fell back to basic cable.

We're now in week two of no decent television so hopefully a solution comes soon. Your efforts are appreciated.


----------



## marklucovsky (Feb 18, 2015)

TiVoMargret said:


> Quick update to say we think we know what is going on in Santa Barbara, and we are testing a fix. For now, if your box is rebooting, please unplug the tuning adapter from the TiVo.
> 
> --Margret


When are you deploying a fix? I've had 3 chat sessions with Tivo on this. Your support people do nothing but blame the cable companies and insist that we call Cox and have them come out and replace the tuning adapters. All Cox will do is ask for the Tivo software version number and note it and say that we need to file a ticket with Tivo.

This is ridiculous. You seem to be taking responsibility for the issue in this forum but your support people are still in the mode of blaming cox. Telling us that there is nothing we can do but ask cox to replace the tuning adapters.

I'd like to know when a fix is going to be deployed by Tivo and what actions we need to take to ensure that our impacted tivos are sent the fix with priority.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

marklucovsky said:


> When are you deploying a fix? I've had 3 chat sessions with Tivo on this. Your support people do nothing but blame the cable companies and insist that we call Cox and have them come out and replace the tuning adapters. All Cox will do is ask for the Tivo software version number and note it and say that we need to file a ticket with Tivo. This is ridiculous. You seem to be taking responsibility for the issue in this forum but your support people are still in the mode of blaming cox. Telling us that there is nothing we can do but ask cox to replace the tuning adapters. I'd like to know when a fix is going to be deployed by Tivo and what actions we need to take to ensure that our impacted tivos are sent the fix with priority.


Who ever said it was TiVo's fault??? It sounds to me, since it's isolated to Santa Barbara, CA, that it's something on Cox's end there.


----------



## tim1724 (Jul 3, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> Who ever said it was TiVo's fault??? It sounds to me, since it's isolated to Santa Barbara, CA, that it's something on Cox's end there.


Nothing that the cable company does should cause a TiVo to reboot. That requires a bug in the TiVo.

In this case it sounds like Cox is sending out bad channel mappings or something which is triggering a bug in the TiVo. Hopefully they'll stop sending out bad info, but TiVo should also find and fix the bug in their software so this doesn't happen again when some other cable company sends out bad info.


----------



## goman (Dec 16, 2004)

marklucovsky said:


> When are you deploying a fix? I've had 3 chat sessions with Tivo on this. Your support people do nothing but blame the cable companies and insist that we call Cox and have them come out and replace the tuning adapters. All Cox will do is ask for the Tivo software version number and note it and say that we need to file a ticket with Tivo.
> 
> This is ridiculous. You seem to be taking responsibility for the issue in this forum but your support people are still in the mode of blaming cox. Telling us that there is nothing we can do but ask cox to replace the tuning adapters.
> 
> I'd like to know when a fix is going to be deployed by Tivo and what actions we need to take to ensure that our impacted tivos are sent the fix with priority.


I don't think it has anything to do with the tuning adapters since it reboots without the adapter plugged in.

I think it has something to do with the cable card/Tivo SDV channels mapping bug. I just want it fixed soon.

Mark - I got a call from Cox yesterday right before Tivo Margret's post above saying they should be able to fix it by Friday. He said he was calling all known Tivo users. When I get home I could try to find his phone number and PM it to you.


----------



## parkerric (Feb 13, 2015)

the only thing that unplugging the Tuning Adapter does is stop the cycling of reboots (over and over), it does not stop the reboots from happening.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

tim1724 said:


> Nothing that the cable company does should cause a TiVo to reboot. That requires a bug in the TiVo. In this case it sounds like Cox is sending out bad channel mappings or something which is triggering a bug in the TiVo. Hopefully they'll stop sending out bad info, but TiVo should also find and fix the bug in their software so this doesn't happen again when some other cable company sends out bad info.


Sounds to me from the follow on posts that it's coming from the TA. What makes you say it "requires a bug in the TiVo"? Is TiVo supposed to account for EVERY single bad mapping possibility from the MSO? That doesn't sound very reasonable to expect! If Cox is sending bad mapping data then that sure sounds like it's Cox's fault to me. How is tivo supposed to account for every eventuality of bad data it may receive???

I agree maybe they can do something in their software so that it doesn't do a full reboot cycle over and over, but that won't stop the deleterious effects of the bad data in the first place, which is the provider's fault causing the snowball in the first place.



goman said:


> ........ I think it has something to do with the cable card/Tivo SDV channels mapping bug........


The Cablecard doesn't do mapping when a TA is used. The TA takes over the channels and mapping functions.



goman said:


> ...... I got a call from Cox yesterday right before Tivo Margret's post above saying they should be able to fix it by Friday. .........


Sounds like Cox is admitting fault to me. 



parkerric said:


> the only thing that unplugging the Tuning Adapter does is stop the cycling of reboots (over and over), it does not stop the reboots from happening.


Are you saying the reboots don't recur until the TA is plugged in again, or it reboots even with it unplugged, just occasionally and not in a vicious cycle over and over?


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> Who ever said it was TiVo's fault??? It sounds to me, since it's isolated to Santa Barbara, CA, that it's something on Cox's end there.


The TiVo attempting to turn certain SDV channels is what is causing the reboots. This happens whether or not the TA is attached or not. There is something in TiVo's code that is causing the box to panic and reboot. It seems to ONLY affect Roamio's, only Cox users in the Santa Barbara market and only with SOME SDV channels.

While I agree the issue seems primarily with TiVo's code that is somehow panicking and causing the reboot. Cox does share some of the blame in this as it only seems to be happening on this particular plant.



marklucovsky said:


> When are you deploying a fix? I've had 3 chat sessions with Tivo on this. Your support people do nothing but blame the cable companies and insist that we call Cox and have them come out and replace the tuning adapters. All Cox will do is ask for the Tivo software version number and note it and say that we need to file a ticket with Tivo.


This is specifically why I did not call Customer Service for either company and went straight to Margaret at TiVo and a Cox employee in CA. What makes you think a front line TiVo CSR is going to know about an obscure problem in a tiny market?



HarperVision said:


> Sounds like Cox is admitting fault to me.


No it doesn't, just because they can fix the problem doesn't mean fault lies with them. I'm going to have to lay fault at the company who wrote code that causes the TiVo to panic and reboot when presented with bad data. There is nothing that Cox can send down that Coax cable that should reboot the device at the end of it, except maybe a power surge or something.



HarperVision said:


> Are you saying the reboots don't recur until the TA is plugged in again, or it reboots even with it unplugged, just occasionally and not in a vicious cycle over and over?


The reboot occurs whether the TA is connected or not. The reboot LOOP occurs when you cause the TiVo to reboot, then when it comes back it, it attempts to tune that same channel, causing it to reboot again, and on and on. Pulling the TA forces the TiVo to NOT try to tune that channel by default (Because it is no longer mapped), so it'll default to a local OTA channel or something.


----------



## Holazola (Dec 22, 2005)

Just checking in. Looking forward to more detailed info. Honestly I haven't even called Cox, One - knowing they are aware of the issue, and two -not wanting to go through the standard CSR unplug / reboot / what's your version #s / it must be a TiVo thing dance....

I got my hopes up earlier tonight when my Roamio installed an update after one of it's top of the hour re-boots - but it was "only" the 20.4.6 update.
Same symptoms after update.


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

Well, as I sit here in reboot hell, I can tell you without doubt that unplugging the TA makes no difference. If you have a boatload of season passes and wish list items, you are screwed. 

I wish TiVo would post information about this and when we can expect a fix. I don't care whether the fix comes from TiVo or Cox, but I am not going to spend even more hours on the phone only to get told by some level one tech support person to call the other company. I have already wasted way too much time just trying to watch television.

No matter what anyone else says here, it is the TiVo that is crashing, and it is the TiVo software that needs to be fixed so it doesn't crash. Software should NEVER crash, regardless of whether the data is good or bad. That's what systems programmers do. I know. I have been one for over 30 years.

I am real close to boxing up both my Tivo's and sending them back and demanding a refund for the boxes, my subscription fees, and reimbursement for all the time I have spent on this just trying to watch TV. 

I have had a total of 6 TiVo's now, and have always been a fan, but after 9 days of this crap I am simply fed up.


----------



## goman (Dec 16, 2004)

I just did a quick check on some channels that work with the TA and ones that reboot.

Work - 1022 (CNN), 1026 (AMC), 1027 (FX), 1028 (TNT), 1041 (Lifetime)
Reboot - 1023 (HLN), 1031 (TLC), 1039 (VH1), 1057 (Bravo), 1067 (NBC Sports)

I didn't check the rest of the SDV channels because I got sick of the reboot and want to record the 11pm showing of the Americans.


----------



## tim1724 (Jul 3, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> Sounds to me from the follow on posts that it's coming from the TA. What makes you say it "requires a bug in the TiVo"? Is TiVo supposed to account for EVERY single bad mapping possibility from the MSO? That doesn't sound very reasonable to expect! If Cox is sending bad mapping data then that sure sounds like it's Cox's fault to me. How is tivo supposed to account for every eventuality of bad data it may receive???


Correctly written software deals with bad input in a manner other than crashing. Crashing is always a bug, and most likely indicates a security risk as well (e.g., a buffer overflow or similar problem).

It's entirely reasonable to expect software not to crash when given bad input. Is it ok for Chrome to crash when it receives invalid HTML from a website? Would it be ok for Word to crash if you type certain patterns of keystrokes? Bad input is always going to happen and it's a programmer's job to write code that handles whatever it receives.

I'm a programmer and my current job involves network security, so I do know what I'm talking about. This type of bug is a very serious problem and I'd expect TiVo's security team to be working on a patch.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Philmatic said:


> The TiVo attempting to turn certain SDV channels is what is causing the reboots. This happens whether or not the TA is attached or not. There is something in TiVo's code that is causing the box to panic and reboot. It seems to ONLY affect Roamio's, only Cox users in the Santa Barbara market and only with SOME SDV channels. While I agree the issue seems primarily with TiVo's code that is somehow panicking and causing the reboot. Cox does share some of the blame in this as it only seems to be happening on this particular plant. This is specifically why I did not call Customer Service for either company and went straight to Margaret at TiVo and a Cox employee in CA. What makes you think a front line TiVo CSR is going to know about an obscure problem in a tiny market? No it doesn't, just because they can fix the problem doesn't mean fault lies with them. I'm going to have to lay fault at the company who wrote code that causes the TiVo to panic and reboot when presented with bad data. There is nothing that Cox can send down that Coax cable that should reboot the device at the end of it, except maybe a power surge or something. The reboot occurs whether the TA is connected or not. The reboot LOOP occurs when you cause the TiVo to reboot, then when it comes back it, it attempts to tune that same channel, causing it to reboot again, and on and on. Pulling the TA forces the TiVo to NOT try to tune that channel by default (Because it is no longer mapped), so it'll default to a local OTA channel or something.





tim1724 said:


> Correctly written software deals with bad input in a manner other than crashing. Crashing is always a bug, and most likely indicates a security risk as well (e.g., a buffer overflow or similar problem). It's entirely reasonable to expect software not to crash when given bad input. Is it ok for Chrome to crash when it receives invalid HTML from a website? Would it be ok for Word to crash if you type certain patterns of keystrokes? Bad input is always going to happen and it's a programmer's job to write code that handles whatever it receives. I'm a programmer and my current job involves network security, so I do know what I'm talking about. This type of bug is a very serious problem and I'd expect TiVo's security team to be working on a patch.


Fair enough. I guess we will see how it all shakes out then. 

All I can say is, I've had my fair share of downloaded an installed apps and hardware upgrades in my PCs and other devices that blue screened of death me many times. I didn't always ONLY blame Microsoft though :/


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

I decided to call TiVo today and the tech support guy started in with the normal routine of telling me to call the cable company the Cox cable and have them replace both my cable cards and tuning adaptors. I explained that I had already done all the trouble shooting I could possibly do and that others were having the same problem and that I was just trying to find out if there was a fix coming soon. 

He flat out told me if I was not willing to go through their standard trouble shooting he could not help me and he refused to pass my call up a level, then simply hung up on me. 

So a word of advice, don't bother calling TiVo about this. They simply could care less.


----------



## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

brianmilburn said:


> They simply could care less.


They could care less? How much less could they care? If they care more than the minimum, then that isn't so bad, is it?

They couldn't care less.

</grammarnazi>


----------



## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Arcady said:


> They could care less? How much less could they care? If they care more than the minimum, then that isn't so bad, is it?
> 
> They couldn't care less.
> 
> </grammarnazi>


There's a employee that posted right here in this thread looking into it.
Someone cares.


----------



## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

foghorn2 said:


> There's a employee that posted right here in this thread looking into it.
> Someone cares.


Wow, that just shot right over your head.


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

Arcady said:


> They could care less? How much less could they care? If they care more than the minimum, then that isn't so bad, is it?
> 
> They couldn't care less.
> 
> </grammarnazi>


Sorry, excuse my grammatical errors. I meant "couldn't care less". I was a little um, irritated at the moment. I don't think I have ever had a support rep hang up on me before. I have software support people working for me and I know it is not an easy job, but when a customer is trying to explain what they have tried, you don't just hang up because it doesn't fit the script.

I just got off the phone with Cox and was able to get to a real nice guy who was a specialist with cable cards. He was not immediately able to find any specific information on the Santa Barbara problem, but he took my cell number and is working up the chain and trying to find an answer for me. So at least they are trying to be helpful and more importantly didn't hang up on me like the TiVo rep did.


----------



## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I have heard a few stories of TiVo CSRs hanging up on people recently. Or shutting internet chats abrubtly. I don't know where TiVo gets their CSRs, but they need to keep looking for new ones.


----------



## marklucovsky (Feb 18, 2015)

It's Tivo's fault because their hardware is stuck in a crash/reboot cycle. They can't simply crash like this, force people to delete all programming that references and SDV channel, etc. A consumer device like this needs to be much more crash resilient.


----------



## marklucovsky (Feb 18, 2015)

+1


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

marklucovsky said:


> It's Tivo's fault because their hardware is stuck in a crash/reboot cycle. They can't simply crash like this, force people to delete all programming that references and SDV channel, etc. A consumer device like this needs to be much more crash resilient.


Oh, I get it. So kinda like if you put crappy, moisture and ethanol filled gas in your car and it hesitates, stalls and then conks out, then it's the CAR'S fault, right?


----------



## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

We are currently planning to push an update tomorrow to address this issue. We will test it with a few people today. If you are anxious to be in the test group, please email your TSN to [email protected] with the subject: "Santa Barbara fix".

I am very sorry for the trouble this caused. There was a configuration change made by the cable company that our boxes did not react well to. Because this was a regional issue, it was a bit tricky to see the pattern in customer support calls. I very much appreciate being alerted to this thread via twitter.

--Margret


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> All I can say is, I've had my fair share of downloaded an installed apps and hardware upgrades in my PCs and other devices that blue screened of death me many times. I didn't always ONLY blame Microsoft though :/


Your analogy is tenuous at best, as you are equating the simple presentation of data (In the form of CC/SDV channel mapping) to third party software running on the box itself. At no point should software see data, freak out and say "I give up".

HarperVision is obviously a TiVo apologist. Which is cool, but don't minimize the frustration of a number of people here who don't wish to care about who get's blamed for what. They just want it fixed.



TiVoMargret said:


> We are currently planning to push an update tomorrow to address this issue. We will test it with a few people today. If you are anxious to be in the test group, please email your TSN to [email protected] with the subject: "Santa Barbara fix".
> 
> I am very sorry for the trouble this caused. There was a configuration change made by the cable company that our boxes did not react well to. Because this was a regional issue, it was a bit tricky to see the pattern in customer support calls. I very much appreciate being alerted to this thread via twitter.
> 
> --Margret


Thank you Margret, email sent. What software revision should we look for, or how do we know we have the patch?


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

Arcady said:


> They could care less? How much less could they care? If they care more than the minimum, then that isn't so bad, is it?
> 
> They couldn't care less.
> 
> </grammarnazi>





TiVoMargret said:


> We are currently planning to push an update tomorrow to address this issue. We will test it with a few people today. If you are anxious to be in the test group, please email your TSN to [email protected] with the subject: "Santa Barbara fix".
> 
> I am very sorry for the trouble this caused. There was a configuration change made by the cable company that our boxes did not react well to. Because this was a regional issue, it was a bit tricky to see the pattern in customer support calls. I very much appreciate being alerted to this thread via twitter.
> 
> --Margret


I have sent BOTH TiVo serial numbers. I need both of mine added to the test group. This is causing more problems than you know. Please let us know when I can turn my boxes back on. They are both completely unplugged. Tomorrow is the drop dead date for me. I am going to have to make other choices. 10 days is long enough.


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

Philmatic said:


> Your analogy is tenuous at best, as you are equating the simple presentation of data (In the form of CC/SDV channel mapping) to third party software running on the box itself. At no point should software see data, freak out and say "I give up".
> 
> HarperVision is obviously a TiVo apologist. Which is cool, but don't minimize the frustration of a number of people here who don't wish to care about who get's blamed for what. *They just want it fixed*.


Exactly!


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

brianmilburn said:


> I have sent BOTH TiVo serial numbers. I need both of mine added to the test group. This is causing more problems than you know. Please let us know when I can turn my boxes back on. They are both completely unplugged. Tomorrow is the drop dead date for me. I am going to have to make other choices. 10 days is long enough.


You'll have to disconnect the SDV box and pull your CableCard. TiVo can't update boxes that aren't on and connected to the internet.


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

Philmatic said:


> You'll have to disconnect the SDV box and pull your CableCard. TiVo can't update boxes that aren't on and connected to the internet.


Thanks. Yeah I was thinking I would do that tonight when I get home. They'll just sit there asking for the cable card but that's okay. They are disconnected from the TV anyway and at least they won't be rebooting over and over all night.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

TiVoMargret said:


> We are currently planning to push an update tomorrow to address this issue. We will test it with a few people today. If you are anxious to be in the test group, please email your TSN to [email protected] with the subject: "Santa Barbara fix".
> 
> I am very sorry for the trouble this caused. There was a configuration change made by the cable company that our boxes did not react well to. Because this was a regional issue, it was a bit tricky to see the pattern in customer support calls. I very much appreciate being alerted to this thread via twitter.
> 
> --Margret


 Even though I'm not affected, just wanted to chime in here to say Kudos for the attention and fast response to this problem! Had you not been available to be alerted to the problem I dare say it would have taken much, much longer for the problem to get the attention needed to be resolved.


----------



## goman (Dec 16, 2004)

Philmatic said:


> You'll have to disconnect the SDV box and pull your CableCard. TiVo can't update boxes that aren't on and connected to the internet.


What do you mean pull your cable card? Take it out of the Tivo? Why?

I just sent the email to Marget. Anyone get confirmation yet?


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

goman said:


> What do you mean pull your cable card? Take it out of the Tivo? Why?
> 
> I just sent the email to Marget. Anyone get confirmation yet?


Because you run the risk of the TiVo rebooting at any time if the CableCard is still in the TiVo, without the CableCard the TiVo has NO channel mappings and won't attempt to tune the problematic SDV channels.

I doubt she will confirm anything privately, we'll know tonight. Follow this thread for updates.


----------



## goman (Dec 16, 2004)

Philmatic said:


> Because you run the risk of the TiVo rebooting at any time if the CableCard is still in the TiVo, without the CableCard the TiVo has NO channel mappings and won't attempt to tune the problematic SDV channels.


Okay I understand... But that means no channels to watch. I just went through my to do list and deleted recordings where I know it would cause a problem.


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

goman said:


> Okay I understand... But that means no channels to watch. I just went through my to do list and deleted recordings where I know it would cause a problem.


You should be fine then, no need to pull the CableCard.


----------



## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Philmatic said:


> I doubt she will confirm anything privately, we'll know tonight. Follow this thread for updates.


Post whether or not you get a new SW Version number.

I am curious if Cox Santa Barbara is testing something that they eventually will roll out to other Cox SA/Cisco markets.


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

CoxInPHX said:


> Post whether or not you get a new SW Version number.
> 
> I am curious if Cox Santa Barbara is testing something that they eventually will roll out to other Cox SA/Cisco markets.


If they are, I wish they would go test somewhere else!


----------



## jtab (Feb 20, 2015)

Are there areas other than Santa Barbara that are having this problem? It seems odd that TiVo/Cox customers in other places would not be having this problem too.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Philmatic said:


> Your analogy is tenuous at best, as you are equating the simple presentation of data (In the form of CC/SDV channel mapping) to third party software running on the box itself. At no point should software see data, freak out and say "I give up"........


Yeah, tell that to Microsoft and Apple and EVERY other equipment manufacturer that utilizes an OS, FW and SW....you have absolutely NO IDEA what was changed on Cox's end, so to say that is speculation at best...sheesh!



Philmatic said:


> .........*HarperVision is obviously a TiVo apologist.* Which is cool, but don't minimize the frustration of a number of people here who don't wish to care about who get's blamed for what. They just want it fixed. Thank you Margret, email sent. What software revision should we look for, or how do we know we have the patch?


Now *THAT* is funny, I must say!  You haven't been following my posts since at least the Roamio came out, have you? 

I'm NOT minimizing their frustration at all. I'm just saying that for someone to blame and basically scream at TiVo to fix what is such an isolated case apparently (Santa Barbara, CA ONLY!), especially now that Margret says it was caused by a change on Cox's end, is completely unfair and uncalled for.

As was mentioned, they, as a large corporation, actually moved in a timely manner to find and deploy a solution to a change that COX made locally.


----------



## goman (Dec 16, 2004)

Got an email from TiVo and followed the instructions and everything is working. Tivo now has 20.4.6a


----------



## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

goman said:


> Got an email from TiVo and followed the instructions and everything is working. Tivo now has 2.4.6a


Wow, that was fast.


----------



## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

If you sent me your TSN, your box has now been authorized for the fix. You should have also received an email from me with these instructions:

1. To prevent any reboots during this process, you may want to unplug the coax cable. (Note that when you do this, all current recordings will stop.)

2. Make a TiVo service connection by going to TiVo Central->Settings->Settings & Messages->Network->Connect to TiVo service now.

3. Repeat Step 2 until you see Pending Restart which means the software patch has been downloaded to your DVR and is ready to be installed.

4. Reboot the TiVo DVR to install the update.

5. Reconnect the coax cable.

6. When the TiVo is back up, verify that you have the software patch on your DVR. Go to TiVo Central->Settings & Messages->Account & System Info->System Information->Software version and verify that you have 20.4.6a-RC1

7. Tune to channels that were causing a reboot before, and verify that the issue is resolved.


----------



## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

Note: if you are experiencing this issue on a Premiere, we cannot yet update your box. We believe Cox will be temporarily changing their configuration back early tomorrow morning, which will alleviate the issue for Premiere until we can update those boxes as well. (Likely within 1 to 2 weeks.)


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

TiVoMargret said:


> If you sent me your TSN, your box has now been authorized for the fix. You should have also received an email from me with these instructions:
> 
> 1. To prevent any reboots during this process, you may want to unplug the coax cable. (Note that when you do this, all current recordings will stop.)
> 
> ...


Margret, I sent you two TSN's. One of them updated successfully. The other with TSN ending in FCFA is still in reboot limbo. Can you check and make sure this one was authorized too?

My problem is that TV is built into the wall over a fireplace and the electronics are in a cabinet in the attic above. It is a little difficult to get to to disconnect wires. I can do that, but I don't want to go through that if it isn't authorized. The other TiVo just updated on it's own after a reboot. This one didn't. Part of the problem was that it is already on an SDV channel, and the TiVo wants to go back there when it reboots. I get to the progress wheel after it starts up and it reboots, so I don't have a chance to do anything else. Thank you.


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

brianmilburn said:


> Margret, I sent you two TSN's. One of them updated successfully. The other with TSN ending in FCFA is still in reboot limbo. Can you check and make sure this one was authorized too?
> 
> My problem is that TV is built into the wall over a fireplace and the electronics are in a cabinet in the attic above. It is a little difficult to get to to disconnect wires. I can do that, but I don't want to go through that if it isn't authorized. The other TiVo just updated on it's own after a reboot. This one didn't. Part of the problem was that it is already on an SDV channel, and the TiVo wants to go back there when it reboots. I get to the progress wheel after it starts up and it reboots, so I don't have a chance to do anything else. Thank you.


You need to disconnect the TA and remove the CableCard to force the TiVo to tune a non-SDV channel so it can stay up long enough to make a connection to download the new software.

Keep in mind that if you use MoCA to connect your TiVo to the network, you won't be able to remove the Coax cable to download the software. The TA and CC removal is your only option.


----------



## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

brianmilburn said:


> Margret, I sent you two TSN's. One of them updated successfully. The other with TSN ending in FCFA is still in reboot limbo. Can you check and make sure this one was authorized too?


Yes, I can see that it is authorized.


----------



## brianmilburn (Feb 17, 2015)

TiVoMargret said:


> Yes, I can see that it is authorized.


Thank you very much Margret. I have both TiVo's now updated and everything appears to work properly. That is a huge relief. My wife is happily watching American Idol.


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

All is good here as well. Thank you Margaret!


----------



## Holazola (Dec 22, 2005)

Same here - Just finished and ran through all the channels. I'm good to go..

(FYI It took 8 TiVo service connects for it to finally download - I was getting nervous it wasn't going to download)

Thanks Margret and team for the fix. I know it isn't always easy to find root cause, cook up a patch, test & deploy as fast as possible. I'd love to hear a little more detail of what happened here if you are willing to share any of it.


----------



## jtab (Feb 20, 2015)

That seems to have done the trick. I scrolled through all of the HD stations. At first, when I tried the comedy channel, I got a not available message. Fearing a reboot, I quickly went on to the next. After I'd finished checking all of the channels, I tried it again. This time it was there... no problem.


----------



## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

jtab said:


> At first, when I tried the comedy channel, I got a not available message.


Probably because it ceased to exist in 1991.


----------



## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

TiVoMargret said:


> Note: if you are experiencing this issue on a Premiere, we cannot yet update your box. We believe Cox will be temporarily changing their configuration back early tomorrow morning, which will alleviate the issue for Premiere until we can update those boxes as well. (Likely within 1 to 2 weeks.)


Will the premiere update also fix/prevent this issue from happening in other Cox areas even if they haven't made the same configuration change yet?


----------

