# Stilly Q: Watch recordings on deactivated box?



## amseven11 (Dec 24, 2011)

Can you watch recorded content on a roamio if it's deactivated?


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

amseven11 said:


> Can you watch recorded content on a roamio if it's deactivated?


Yes, as long as you recorded it while activated.

One potential issue: If your account with TiVo is "In good standing", a deactivated TiVo can "phone home" and will reflect that under System Information. If your account isn't in good standing, I'd imagine any chance a TiVo on that account had to call home, might result in a lockdown state, until the account issue was resolved. Just because a TiVo has no paid service, and is not activated, doesn't mean it won't try to call home, and check the last associated account status (provided it was ever activated). I think one that has never been activated, locks-down, once the "grace period" to activate has expired. It is possible (and common) to have a service-cancelled TiVo, that will say "in good standing", to reflect the account it was last registered to, while it had it's last known service subscription plan.

I've run into some strange issues (not limited to Roamios), where if I recorded a program that was part of a Cox "channel pak", which required more than a digital basic cable TV sub, the recorded content from such channels would claim "it didn't record, due to no signal", even though I had watched that content before. This would happen when I removed and/or deactivated the cablecard that was in the TiVo, when I recorded the content (or if I changed to a different cablecard, than what was in at the time of recording).

Many claim this is impossible, or I'm saying one thing and meaning another. It seems to be some form of content protection, outside of the CCI-byte setting, which would be 0x00 for these "pak" channels. I'd expect something like this on premium content, but not Encore, IFC, etc.

I have had far more issues with losing access to already recorded content from this, than anything to do with TiVo subscription status.

I have to re-record The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy, every time I've changed to a different cablecard, or removed it, even with CCI 0x00 (inactive) when recorded.

This behavior began when a certain revision of cablecard firmware rolled, and has persisted for every version after it.

If you are free of this bizarre mechanism, you should be able to view anything recorded while activated, which doesn't have any applicable CCI restrictions.

A question that keeps coming up is if you can fill a Roamio drive, then replace it, fill that one, and so on, then install the prior drives to view their content. I'm not sure if that question has ever been answered, with facts. I think most answers came from those who had never even tried it (both yes & no answers). I think that subject always involved/assumed active service status, with the account "in good standing".


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

nooneuknow said:


> Yes, as long as you recorded it while activated.
> ...much verbiage snipped...


TLR, nooneuknow's first line is all you need to know.
Yes, you can play anything that was recorded on the unit before the service was cancelled, even after you cancel the service.


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## DancyMunchkin (Jul 7, 2014)

dianebrat said:


> nooneuknow's first line is all you need to know.


+1 

Talk about the OP asking what time it is and receiving a pedantic tome on how to build a watch.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

I wasn't aware that being thorough, covering variables, and sharing first-hand experience is a crime.

Nearly every attempt I have ever made to give a simple/short YES/NO answer has nearly always resulted in every possible exception being brought to attention, by others, and added more posts from me to defend my answer, as well as just more posts, overall.

If I can cover it all (or nearly all) in one post, I actually save space and time with my more thorough answers.

The fact that I'm not on the Ignore List of those who call me out over my ways of trying to help others, either proves I add value which could be lost if my posts were not visible, or that those who aren't ignoring me, but make snarky/condescending comments on my posts, just enjoy playing games with me (at my expense).

Whatever... I'm getting better at not letting it get to me. I still try to cover all the bases, and share actual experience, rather than just parroting what others have posted before me.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

nooneuknow said:


> Whatever... I'm getting better at not letting it get to me. I still try to cover all the bases, and share actual experience, rather than just parroting what others have posted before me.


There was no need for a treatise covering all of war and peace for a simple answer to a simple question the OP posted, all you needed to do was stop at your first sentence. Unless of course you follow in the path of Charles Dickens and are paid by the word..


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

dianebrat said:


> There was no need for a treatise covering all of war and peace for a simple answer to a simple question the OP posted, all you needed to do was stop at your first sentence. Unless of course you follow in the path of Charles Dickens and are paid by the word..


If only some monetary reimbursement was involved, especially if per word...


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## amseven11 (Dec 24, 2011)

Thanks guys. Much appreciated!


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## Silverman (Jan 18, 2013)

Thank you No-One, I too get criticism for good answers for no reason, please keep giving good answers, plenty of folks just read these forums and like the info. Being a new Roamio user myself, I did not know the answer for it and I've had a Tivo since the series 1. If they don't need the answers they can stop reading them, have they ever thought of that?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

nooneuknow said:


> A question that keeps coming up is if you can fill a Roamio drive, then replace it, fill that one, and so on, then install the prior drives to view their content. I'm not sure if that question has ever been answered, with facts. I think most answers came from those who had never even tried it (both yes & no answers). I think that subject always involved/assumed active service status, with the account "in good standing".


This could be done, using the same TiVo only, so once you de-activate the TiVo no more recording of new stuff, but you could keep changing drives to watch what on each drive, a pain but whatever floats your boat. If you have say 5 drives full of stuff you want to watch you could almost pay for Lifetime service and not purchase the other 4 drives.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Silverman said:


> Thank you No-One, I too get criticism for good answers for no reason, please keep giving good answers, plenty of folks just read these forums and like the info. Being a new Roamio user myself, I did not know the answer for it and I've had a Tivo since the series 1. If they don't need the answers they can stop reading them, have they ever thought of that?


< sound of nooneuknow fainting > Try telling that to slowbuscuit, my current stalker, and official self-declared decider of relevancy, and what my posts should have said... If only he'd contribute what I should have said, before me. Then, I wouldn't have shouldn't have said it, since it would already have been said, before I got there. Unfortunately I disagree with what he feels I should say, so that won't work, either.

Thanks for the public vote of support. Sorry in advance that you probably tanked your popularity rating by daring to back me up in public.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

dianebrat said:


> Island Premiere's are a unique scenario, and not one that would utilize the majority of features one would buy a DVR for IMNSHO.




Is there no island mode with recording ability with these new nifty Roamios? That would make Series 5 the first series that has no units capable of manually recording content without TiVo service.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

heyted said:


> Is there no island mode with recording ability with these new nifty Roamios? That would make Series 5 the first series that has no units capable of manually recording content without TiVo service.


Wow. Interesting how you pulled that tiny snippet out of a post, out of an obscure *Premiere* thread, from some time ago, and transplanted it here, as a quote...

Looking to whip up the mess that subject did before, but apply it to the Roamio? Count me out.

Here's the link to the full post, in the originating *Premiere* thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9693203#post9693203

It doesn't apply at all to this thread, unless you had an unrealistic expectation that TiVo would intentionally incorporate a past mistake into a new design/model. Some people found a loophole with an early shipping version of *Premiere* software, exploited it, and might still be doing so, if they've kept such units disconnected from the internet all this time. Can this be replicated, with the Roamio? *NO*, it can't.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

nooneuknow said:


> *NO*, it can't.


That is unfortunate if someone has tried, and verified that in cannot. Should TiVo make a Roamio model capable of manually setting automatic recordings without service? *Yes! *

By the way, I provided the link to the thread in my post above.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

heyted said:


> That is unfortunate if someone has tried, and verified that in cannot. *Should TiVo make a Roamio model capable of manually setting automatic recordings without service?* *Yes! *


Why on earth would Tivo make a unit that brings them no income? That's the most ridiculous suggestion I've seen in ages since they sell the hardware at a loss.


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## Time_Lord (Jun 4, 2012)

nooneuknow said:


> I have to re-record The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy, every time I've changed to a different cablecard, or removed it, even with CCI 0x00 (inactive) when recorded.


Maybe you have to (re)record it 42 times?


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Time_Lord said:


> Maybe you have to (re)record it 42 times?


In that case, I'm half-way there already.  You forgot to remind me about always keeping my towel with me, though... Gotta have the towel.

You wouldn't happen to know how I could get my "Doctor Who: The Doctors Revisited" replaced, with the old full episodes, would you? I lost those as well.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

dianebrat said:


> Why on earth would Tivo make a unit that brings them no income? That's the most ridiculous suggestion I've seen in ages since they sell the hardware at a loss.


It is actually not a ridiculous suggestion to have VCR-style manual recording without TiVo service. TiVo does not have to loose money on the hardware since their service-oriented profit model can be changed. An exception can be made for a single TiVo model for each series going forward. There are plenty of people that would pay a fair price for a TiVo DVR that has very few abilities other than VCR-style recording. The changes to the software would be minimal for the exception TiVo model, and the hardware changes would mean that it could be produced at a lower price. It could be sold for a profit without people having to pay an exorbitant lifetime fee or monthly fees.

This would not degrade the TiVo name since the better models would, of course, still be available and used for marketing. This would increase the popularity of TiVo and lead to higher profits for TiVo.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

heyted said:


> That is unfortunate if someone has tried, and verified that in cannot. Should TiVo make a Roamio model capable of manually setting automatic recordings without service? *Yes! *
> 
> By the way, I provided the link to the thread in my post above.


It cannot, it has been tested an confirmed time in memorial... And TiVo really has no financial incentive to provide the functionality to you. Period, hard stop.

Wine and complain or buy a TiVo with service...


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

heyted said:


> It is actually not a ridiculous suggestion to have VCR-style manual recording without TiVo service. TiVo does not have to loose money on the hardware since their service-oriented profit model can be changed. An exception can be made for a single TiVo model for each series going forward. There are plenty of people that would pay a fair price for a TiVo DVR that has very few abilities other than VCR-style recording. The changes to the software would be minimal for the exception TiVo model, and the hardware changes would mean that it could be produced at a lower price. It could be sold for a profit without people having to pay an exorbitant lifetime fee or monthly fees. This would not degrade the TiVo name since the better models would, of course, still be available and used for marketing. This would increase the popularity of TiVo and lead to higher profits for TiVo.


The old Toshiba DVD TiVo units had what they called TiVo Basic service that provided this type if free service, with the option to upgrade to full service. It must not have worked well financially for them or you'd think they'd still be doing something like that, no?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

nooneuknow said:


> A question that keeps coming up is if you can fill a Roamio drive, then replace it, fill that one, and so on, then install the prior drives to view their content. I'm not sure if that question has ever been answered, with facts. I think most answers came from those who had never even tried it (both yes & no answers). I think that subject always involved/assumed active service status, with the account "in good standing".


I've indirectly done that, putting back previous "upgrade drives" on my Tivo HD. (one seemingly had a filesystem problem rather than a hard drive problem -- it would get confused and think recordings were missing after a day or so, and wouldn't record new things.. But it still was good enough to use as an upgrade _source_.. and I put it back in last summer I think to watch a bunch of old recordings.)

While I like that idea, and might actually do it if the cablecard pairing stayed around when you switch drives, an easier way nowadays is just to transfer recordings to a computer/external drive, then use pytivo to copy them back to the Tivo to watch.

So the only time to do what you want would be for someone where basically EVERYTHING was copy protected (preventing copy to computer)


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

mattack said:


> I've indirectly done that, putting back previous "upgrade drives" on my Tivo HD. (one seemingly had a filesystem problem rather than a hard drive problem -- it would get confused and think recordings were missing after a day or so, and wouldn't record new things.. But it still was good enough to use as an upgrade _source_.. and I put it back in last summer I think to watch a bunch of old recordings.)
> 
> While I like that idea, and might actually do it if the cablecard pairing stayed around when you switch drives, an easier way nowadays is just to transfer recordings to a computer/external drive, then use pytivo to copy them back to the Tivo to watch.
> 
> So the only time to do what you want would be for someone where basically EVERYTHING was copy protected (preventing copy to computer)


What I brought up, was the subject(s) unique to the Roamio. Some want to know what applies, or doesn't, when changing-out drives that had been installed before, and were removed with the content intact.

I'm not interested in doing so (the multi-drive archive thing), at this time. I simply stated (or tried to) that others have questioned if it was possible, with some being specific that they wanted an answer from somebody that had actually tried it, on a Roamio.

Often, it just takes one person saying what does/doesn't or will/won't work, without even saying if they tried it, or how they tried it, without anybody else replicating the process/results, for others to start simply "parroting" the first to answer. So, I see why some wanted "better" answers. As for me, it's just a curiosity, not even enough so for me to take any risks which might be involved to attempt it. So, I parroted the question, rather than any answer, in case I missed the posts(s) from anybody who actually attempted it.

Thanks for the input, though.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

bradleys said:


> It cannot, it has been tested an confirmed time in memorial... And TiVo really has no financial incentive to provide the functionality to you. Period, hard stop.
> 
> Wine and complain or buy a TiVo with service...


I do not consider my comments to be unfounded complaints or whining. My comments are a method of trying to not stand idly by. There is no technological need for a DVR to have continuing service to record television content. There is no need to have guide data to be able to record. What TiVo is doing is legal, but is it ethical? Since we are just talking about a DVR and not a necessity, it is ethical in gereral. But, it is tending towards the unethical side of the scale.

It is TiVo's legal prerogative to require a service fee when one is not a technological requirement. But, it is also within its customer's ability to give TiVo a financial incentive to provide a DVR beyond Series 4 that can record without a service fee. TiVo should produce a model that is listed by TiVo as being able to record without a monthly or lifetime fee. In addition to being more ethical, it will likely lead to higher profits for TiVo.

"Evil can spread if good people stand idly by." (Paraphrased quote by Edmund Burke)


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

From the TiVo Coffee House forum:




eboydog said:


> TiVo To Drop Mini Service Fees?




While the Mini is not a DVR, if this ends up being correct and the service fee(s) are eliminated, it would be a step in the right direction.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

An option for those who want to just buy a TiVo, own it, and be able to use it "forever", already exists. It's known as "Buy the TiVo and lifetime service to go with it". There, done.

The TiVo Mini selling price is expected to go up, if TiVo does eliminate (or even reduce) the monthly fee. Of course, what TiVo might do about the Mini is speculation, and not already etched in stone (might not even happen).

How somebody expects to hijack this thread, and gain supporters for some mass-uprising against TiVo, on a mostly pro-TiVo forum, not operated by, or affiliated with TiVo (in the business/legal sense), is beyond me.

I hope that this thread doesn't degrade to such levels. It's still viable for on-topic re-use, by others than the OP.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

heyted said:


> From the TiVo Coffee House forum:
> 
> While the Mini is not a DVR, if this ends up being correct and the service fee(s) are eliminated, it would be a step in the right direction.


All they are going to do is raise the base price to cover the total cost of ownership instead of splitting between purchase price and service fee. This makes sense considering what the mini is. And it will still require a full TiVo, with service, to work.

Base price for a mini is $99 and lifetime service $150 - total cost of ownership $250... I think the mini will be repackaged with an updated RF remote and priced between $200 and $250.

Never pay monthly on a TiVo - it is stupid. Yes, I said stupid, get lifetime.

Your TiVo is a brick and I am glad it is a brick because it makes the resale value of my lifetime TiVo's significantly higher.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

heyted said:


> It is actually not a ridiculous suggestion to have VCR-style manual recording without TiVo service. TiVo does not have to loose money on the hardware since their service-oriented profit model can be changed. An exception can be made for a single TiVo model for each series going forward. There are plenty of people that would pay a fair price for a TiVo DVR that has very few abilities other than VCR-style recording. The changes to the software would be minimal for the exception TiVo model, and the hardware changes would mean that it could be produced at a lower price. It could be sold for a profit without people having to pay an exorbitant lifetime fee or monthly fees.
> 
> This would not degrade the TiVo name since the better models would, of course, still be available and used for marketing. This would increase the popularity of TiVo and lead to higher profits for TiVo.


Having a TiVo that only does what you listed wouldn't even make it a TiVo anymore. EVerything that makes it a TiVo would have been stripped out. Although I have no idea why anyone would want to go back to 20th century ways of recording. I would stop watching TV before I go back to recording things manually.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

heyted said:


> It is TiVo's legal prerogative to require a service fee when one is not a technological requirement. But, it is also within its customer's ability to give TiVo a financial incentive to provide a DVR beyond Series 4 that can record without a service fee. TiVo should produce a model that is listed by TiVo as being able to record without a monthly or lifetime fee. In addition to being more ethical, it will likely lead to higher profits for TiVo.


I suppose TiVo could charge enough for hardware so that they would make a profit on even your hypothetical customer who isn't willing to pay for guide service, and then presumably they would charge for any future software upgrades. But they choose to leave the market for manual-recording-only DVRs to others and occupy only the upper end of the DVR market with units branded "TiVo". That is indeed their prerogative, and it's a reasonable choice. They are not ethically obligated to offer every hardware variation that anybody might want.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

heyted said:


> I do not consider my comments to be unfounded complaints or whining. My comments are a method of trying to not stand idly by. There is no technological need for a DVR to have continuing service to record television content. There is no need to have guide data to be able to record. What TiVo is doing is legal, but is it ethical? Since we are just talking about a DVR and not a necessity, it is ethical in gereral. But, it is tending towards the unethical side of the scale.
> 
> It is TiVo's legal prerogative to require a service fee when one is not a technological requirement. But, it is also within its customer's ability to give TiVo a financial incentive to provide a DVR beyond Series 4 that can record without a service fee. TiVo should produce a model that is listed by TiVo as being able to record without a monthly or lifetime fee. In addition to being more ethical, it will likely lead to higher profits for TiVo.
> 
> "Evil can spread if good people stand idly by." (Paraphrased quote by Edmund Burke)


You may not like the TiVo business model, I may not like my cell phone business model for the way I use a cell phone, but it is up to me to find a better solution for any product I want, not up to the co. itself. As long as one gets what one is promised the co. has fulfilled its obligations. What I want for my TiVo(s) I can't find any other way that better for me than Lifetime TiVos, so that what I use. As for the Cell phone I will try to find something less expensive as my contract is up this November, I may not be successful but I will try.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

nooneuknow said:


> An option for those who want to just buy a TiVo, own it, and be able to use it "forever", already exists. It's known as "Buy the TiVo and lifetime service to go with it". There, done.


I was referring to a Series 5 or higher TiVo that does not receive guide data that is paid for. Therefore, a Roamio with lifetime service is not applicable. It is completely TiVo's prerogative to not produce a model that I described, but TiVo is missing out on additional sales by doing so.

Apparently, TiVo currently agrees with you and not me, and they have likely or definitely done an analysis that shows the most revenue can be generated by using the service-oriented business model only. But, this just does not seem right to me.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

bradleys said:


> Your TiVo is a brick and I am glad it is a brick because it makes the resale value of my lifetime TiVo's significantly higher.


My TiVo Premiere is not the topic of this thread, but I do not consider a TiVo that can manually record to be a brick.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

aaronwt said:


> Although I have no idea why anyone would want to go back to 20th century ways of recording. I would stop watching TV before I go back to recording things manually.


I completely agree with this for many people, but I was referring to the type of people that would want this type of recording. A significant number of people dislike seeing the service fees and lifetime fee when they first consider a TiVo, and they end up with a DVR from their cable company. Despite the nice picture that the FCC paints here, a TiVo is currently the only appliance CableCard DRV alternative to the cable company's DVR, and there are no alternatives without service costs. I just think this is sad.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

lessd said:


> You may not like the TiVo business model, I may not like my cell phone business model for the way I use a cell phone, but it is up to me to find a better solution for any product I want, not up to the co. itself. As long as one gets what one is promised the co. has fulfilled its obligations. What I want for my TiVo(s) I can't find any other way that better for me than Lifetime TiVos, so that what I use. As for the Cell phone I will try to find something less expensive as my contract is up this November, I may not be successful but I will try.


There are multiple posts in multiple threads using the cell phone service fee to describe TiVo's service fees. This comparison is flawed when it comes to technological requirements for manually setting automatic recordings.

This is off topic, so I will not elaborate, but I recommend Republic Wireless for smartphone service if you have good Sprint coverage in your area and want to save money. Their hybrid technology may be the future for all smartphones.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

heyted said:


> I was referring to a Series 5 or higher TiVo that does not receive guide data that is paid for. Therefore, a Roamio with lifetime service is not applicable. It is completely TiVo's prerogative to not produce a model that I described, but TiVo is missing out on additional sales by doing so.
> 
> Apparently, TiVo currently agrees with you and not me, and they have likely or definitely done an analysis that shows the most revenue can be generated by using the service-oriented business model only. But, this just does not seem right to me.


Do you even realize you are making no sense, whatsoever?

What I said applies to a "Series 5 or higher", as you say, which is odd, since the series 5 is as high as exists on the market today. The "buy TiVo + Lifetime Service plan" option still applies, done. No future monthly payments, ever.

You just want your mass uprising, and won't stop, just as long as there is somebody not ignoring you (even if they are telling you the same things they have in your older attempts at creating your mass-uprising).


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> Do you even realize you are making no sense, whatsoever? What I said applies to a "Series 5 or higher", as you say, which is odd, since the series 5 is as high as exists on the market today. The "buy TiVo + Lifetime Service plan" option still applies, done.* No future monthly payments, ever. * You just want your mass uprising, and won't stop, just as long as there is somebody not ignoring you (even if they are telling you the same things they have in your older attempts at creating your mass-uprising).


Unless you use a credit card because you don't have $600 - $1,000 disposable income to throw at a fancy DVR.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> Unless you use a credit card because you don't have $600 - $1,000 disposable income to throw at a fancy DVR.


Take a low interest credit card and pay them back at $20/ month, in less than 2.5 years your TiVo w/Lifetime will be paid for and you will some equinity in the TiVo.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

lessd said:


> Take a low interest credit card and pay them back at $20/ month, in less than 2.5 years your TiVo w/Lifetime will be paid for and you will some equinity in the TiVo.


You're missing the point. Some people, myself included, don't want that showing up on their credit report/score. A monthly TiVo subscription does not.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Oh dear Lord 

EDIT: nooneuknow, why did you delete your post I was responding to above?


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

nooneuknow said:


> Do you even realize you are making no sense, whatsoever?


More of what I mean is explained below.



nooneuknow said:


> What I said applies to a "Series 5 or higher", as you say, which is odd, since the series 5 is as high as exists on the market today. The "buy TiVo + Lifetime Service plan" option still applies, done. No future monthly payments, ever.


I explained in post number 18 of this thread that TiVo should produce a future TiVo model that has VCR-style manual recording only. A VCR could be purchased with a one-time payment, had no guide data, and it could be used for the lifetime of the device to record television content. If the CableCard standard had existed back then with the same restrictions that exist today, it would have been nice to replace the cable box with a CableCard enabled VCR. Today, a DVR with a hard drive is much better than VCR technology, and there is no reason that manual recording without guide data cannot exist, other than a manufacturer not being willing to produce this hypothetical DVR. I agree with you that using the lifetime purchasing option is the same thing, but only if the hypothetical DVR described would need to have the same total price (purchase price + lifetime service fee). It is logical that the hypothetical DVR could cost less since it would be capable of very little or nothing other than VCR-style manual recording without guide data.



nooneuknow said:


> You just want your mass uprising, and won't stop, just as long as there is somebody not ignoring you (even if they are telling you the same things they have in your older attempts at creating your mass-uprising).


I have never used the phrase "mass uprising." I have pointed out that it is within TiVo's customers' ability to give TiVo a financial incentive to provide a future DVR that can record without a service fee, like it has in the past. I am only referring to the number of TiVo DVRs sold. This is true only if I am not the only person thinking that TiVo should do this. It is my belief that TiVo is missing out on selling the hypothetical DVR, and a significant number of people decide to use their cable company's DVR after they learn about the monthly fees and lifetime fee.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

I'm done with this conversation, and feel it's best I just ignore heyted (hated?), and hope the thread regains it's bearings at some point (if it ever does).

Until then, I'm out, until I see something I consider on-topic, or that I give a frack about.


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