# Roamio versus Dish Hopper? (re: thinking about switching from Dish)



## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Can anybody tell me how the Tivo Roamio compares to the latest Dish Hopper DVR?

I've been a Dish customer for a long time, but I'm getting a little tired of their contract disputes and they also don't offer a channels that my local cable provider does (Service Electric).

Also, how fast is the Tivo guide and menus? The last time I used it (2012 model?), the UI was pretty slow still even after their "speed improvements" ... How about the Netflix and Amazon menus? Being able to search everything from one interface sounds fantastic.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

You might want to start a thread asking for input from Service Electric customers. I know the local cable company can really effect your TiVo experience. (I've never heard of SE.) 

I'm real happy with my Roamio on Verizon FiOS. The Roamio menus are much improved. Generally the response is pretty quick. I think the Netflix app is pretty good. I wish it was a little faster, but I think that is in part due to Internet lag. TiVo is pushing out a new Amazon app this month. The new app can access Amazon Prime videos.


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## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

Roamio is pretty darn similar to the Hopper. Tivo successfully sued dish for patent infringement, after all. I was immediately comfortable with the Roamio. The Netflix and Amazon Prime integration is very nice. I really like using one remote to access Time Warner, Netflix and Amazon all on the same system, using the same hdmi input. I also prefer the list view of recordings, as opposed to the tile view on Hopper, but I'm probably in the minority on that. 

There are a couple of things that I really dislike, but am putting up with. My biggest dislike is that Tivo only has a 30 minute buffer, compared to Dish's 60 minute. Also dislike that when I swap between tuners (like when watching two or more sports at same time), you have to pause if you are not live. If you are not live and you don't pause, you will jump to live when you swap back. Dish retains your spot without having to pause. 

At any rate, as an 8 year dish customer, and someone who got the hopper the first week it was available, Roamio is a pretty acceptable experience.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

I am actually in the middle of transitioning from Dish Hopper to Roamio OTA. I have the original Hopper and the low-end Roamio. The Roamio is as snappy as the Hopper doing most things. You probably used a Premier previously, which was a dog on the old software. Tivo re-wrote everything in Haxe, and even the Premiers are much better these days.

The Amazon and Netflix apps are very usable IMHO. I like having them available right on the DVR.

I would ask if Service Electric uses SDV and requires tuning adapters. If so, I would not [personally] recommend going with Tivo. If they just use cable card only, then you should be very happy.

I am very happy so far except for the Mini I purchased dying in the first few days, but Tivo support was excellent, and I should have my replacement Mini tomorrow. If you ever had to contact Dish tech support, you know how bad it can be.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

FYI: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Dish-Says-Turner-Channels-Including-CNN-May-Never-Return-131174


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> Can anybody tell me how the Tivo Roamio compares to the latest Dish Hopper DVR?
> 
> I've been a Dish customer for a long time, but I'm getting a little tired of their contract disputes and they also don't offer a channels that my local cable provider does (Service Electric).
> 
> Also, how fast is the Tivo guide and menus? The last time I used it (2012 model?), the UI was pretty slow still even after their "speed improvements" ... How about the Netflix and Amazon menus? Being able to search everything from one interface sounds fantastic.


Which Service Electric area are you in?
http://www.secv.com/
http://www.sectv.com/Web/
http://www.secable.com/
Two of them have the Arris (Moxi) 6 tuner whole home system available now. You may want to try that out first, especially if you are with SECV as you will only be saving a few dollars a month by using TiVo.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ncted said:


> I would ask if Service Electric uses SDV and requires tuning adapters. If so, I would not [personally] recommend going with Tivo. If they just use cable card only, then you should be very happy.


SDV clearly causes problems for some people, but it isn't necessarily a deal breaker for everyone. My SDV/tuning adapter on TWC actually works pretty well. And even if it didn't, pretty much all the channels that I routinely want to watch or record are not SDV on TWC in my market, so if my tuning adapter was causing problems and I really had to, I could disconnect it and just go CableCard only.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> SDV clearly causes problems for some people, but it isn't necessarily a deal breaker for everyone. My SDV/tuning adapter on TWC actually works pretty well. And even if it didn't, pretty much all the channels that I routinely want to watch or record are not SDV on TWC in my market, so if my tuning adapter was causing problems and I really had to, I could disconnect it and just go CableCard only.


Yeah, some people have better luck with them than others. Given he is coming from Dish, I thought it worth mentioning though, as the fully integrated solution from them provides a very different experience than the TA hack.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

I will add that the Tivo is much faster if you learn the remote shortcuts rather than use the menus for everything.

http://blog.tivo.com/2010/08/guest-...oes-more-than-you-knew-it-could/#.VFpexYfQy-8


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## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

I'll also add that the Roamio does appear snappier than the Hopper, but the hopper is no slouch. It is probably a result of some minor hopper animation/screen effects that make the hopper appear slower. (ie paging down on the guide on the hopper is quite fast, but appears to have a small effect that makes it seem to take longer)


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Well, I just bit the bullet and placed an order for the Roamio Pro (with lifetime) and two Tivo Minis. Hope it doesn't disappoint!

(Also, my cable provider doesn't have SDV which is good)


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> Well, I just bit the bullet and placed an order for the Roamio Pro (with lifetime) and two Tivo Minis. Hope it doesn't disappoint!
> 
> (Also, my cable provider doesn't have SDV which is good)


I am not certain that Service Electric has a cablecard that supports 6 tuners for retail devices. I can only confirm that the cards for retail devices supports 4 tuners. They usually do not port cablecard firm ware updates to the retail devices.
This will be for the SECV divisions. I really can not confirm the capabilities of the SECTV divisions. I would also assume the Sparta system is behind as this is the only one that the youngest son owns. He sold the other two to his brother and sister.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Hmmm, well that just bummed me out. I really hope it does support the six tuners...

Also, how good is the cable quality? (i.e. bitrate, etc)


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

sofakng said:


> Hmmm, well that just bummed me out. I really hope it does support the six tuners...


From looking at their website, it looks like they will actually let you buy a CableCard rather than rent it. I'm just speculating here, but I assume they will sell you a new card, and a new one should come with relatively recent firmware that should support 6 tuners.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> Hmmm, well that just bummed me out. I really hope it does support the six tuners...


Like I said it depends which Service Electric you belong to. They do not keep a lot of cards in stock as there is very little demand for them. I do know that the Hazleton division of SECV is good with the cards but they probably have ones that support 4 tuners. They only have about a dozen cards in use and I am the only customer with a device that uses more than two tuners.
It is possible that they have cards that support 6 tuners but I can not verify that. In the Hazleton division, they are very good pairing the cards. It is once and done.

The way they run their system is they have two channel maps, one for STBs and one for retail cablecard devices. The STBs come with the cards installed and paired from the manufacturer so it is not necessary to worry about how many tuners the card will support. The new 6 tuner system will have the newest card, but as I said it is already installed in the unit.

I have never known them to push a firmware update to cablecards in any consumer owned devices, even cable modems. Their logic is they want you to rent their equipment so you can potentially use their VOD of TVAnywhere offerings.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

tarheelblue32 said:


> From looking at their website, it looks like they will actually let you buy a CableCard rather than rent it. I'm just speculating here, but I assume they will sell you a new card, and a new one should come with relatively recent firmware that should support 6 tuners.


That would be for the SECTV systems and possibly the Sparta system. Cost is $132.50 which includes PA sales tax. It comes with a one year warranty. After that you have to buy another one again if there is any issues.

Definitely not the SECV system, they are rent only. The monthly fee is $3.13/month.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Jed1 said:


> I have never known them to push a firmware update to cablecards in any consumer owned devices, even cable modems. Their logic is they want you to rent their equipment so you can potentially use their VOD of TVAnywhere offerings.


That's pretty much all MSOs' logic. Only the FCC keeps them in check. It does get a bit tricky with the smaller cable providers, as not all of the FCC rules apply to them.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> Also, how good is the cable quality? (i.e. bitrate, etc)


That depends on the system. They use WYSIWUG (What you see is what you get). This means if CBS is 17.3 million bits per second that is what they send you.
I can vouch for the Hazleton division of SECV is really good as their HD is two per channel. I will say the Wilkes Barre division of SECTV will be good, as I know the engineer who runs that system. He used to be the chief engineer of my system until the youngest son sold it to his brother and sister.

The other divisions I can not vouch for as I never seen their performance.

It is worth noting that all the SECV divisions are all digital now and have no bandwidth issues. This is why we have over 120 HD channels.
http://www.secv.com/cdocs/channel_mah.pdf

The SECTV divisions are now in the slow process of taking down the analog channels so there is a bandwidth crunch on their systems. the same goes for Sparta NJ.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

I'm in the Wilkes-Barre division in case I haven't mentioned it... (I'm from Mountain Top)

That's good to hear about the quality and engineer of the system. I've sent some e-mails but I'm guessing it will hard to get in touch with anybody who really knows the answer.

Is there any way you could reach out to the engineer and ask him, or point me in the right direction of who to contact?

If I have to purchase a CableCARD then I will do it, but I would much rather rent just in case I have problems, etc.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

tarheelblue32 said:


> That's pretty much all MSOs' logic. Only the FCC keeps them in check. It does get a bit tricky with the smaller cable providers, as not all of the FCC rules apply to them.


Correct, Any system that is 700MHz and below get certain exemptions.

In the case of all the Service Electrics, full FCC rules apply as they are currently at 865MHz. Service Electric is almost on par with Comcast technology wise as they have been doing so pretty expensive and massive upgrades in the past couple of years. 
They even bought up some of the smaller cable providers in my area.
Shen Heights was one of them. They are rolling those customers into my division.
http://www.shenhgts.net/


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> I'm in the Wilkes-Barre division in case I haven't mentioned it... (I'm from Mountain Top)
> 
> That's good to hear about the quality and engineer of the system. I've sent some e-mails but I'm guessing it will hard to get in touch with anybody who really knows the answer.
> 
> ...


You are in good hands then. The engineer is old school and extremely thorough. 
I was the first to use cablecards with Service Electric. That was in 2004. It took your engineer about two hours or so to get it working. But after that that card worked non stop up until my new division took it out of service two years ago for a mistake they kept making with their cablecard lineup.
SECV ended up giving me two cards for free and they have been working non stop since then.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Good to hear.

I just have to figure out how to get a card that supports 6 streams then. I'm guessing I have an uphill battle ahead of me. 

Here's what I got so far:

@sectv on twitter: Our cablecards only support 2 tuners.
Phone call to sectvwb: This is a Tivo issue and you need to contact them.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> Good to hear.
> 
> I just have to figure out how to get a card that supports 6 streams then. I'm guessing I have an uphill battle ahead of me.


Don't fret about it. It is possible that the Motorola Cards they have may already support 6 tuners. If not I do believe they will try to get you one. See about renting one first, if it works then you can have the option to buy it if they are still doing that.
When you call for the cablecard mention them that it is a 6 tuner TiVo Roamio so they know up front what device they are installing it in.

In my case I know when they swapped my cards they had M4 on the case and that meant that they supported 4 tuners. I never tried mine in a 6 tuner unit. If they won't work then I know they will not give me any new ones so I will have to rent one.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

OK - I'll see what happens. I'm just trying to avoid any delays or problems by figuring this out before the installer comes to my house.

Anyways, I spoke with somebody on the phone (at SECTV-WB) and they really didn't understand anything I was talking about but eventually transferred me to somebody else from one of the cablecard departments.

She seemed to understand a little more and I pointed her to the Tivo support page explaining the firmware versions and she is going to give me a call back.

I'm only worried because nobody seemed to understand what I was talking about and they didn't have anybody else to transfer me to. I did ask for an engineering or support department but apparently the department I was speaking with was it. 

Oh, and you can purchase a cablecard for $125 as previously mentioned, but they already have them in-stock at the office so I would just be getting an older version I'm sure. They don't place a new order from Motorola.

My friend also just had an install (but only needed a 3-tuner card) and the installer told him the cablecard supports up to 4 streams. He didn't ask about a 6-tuner version because he didn't need it, but I'm wondering if they even have any...


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> OK - I'll see what happens. I'm just trying to avoid any delays or problems by figuring this out before the installer comes to my house.
> 
> Anyways, I spoke with somebody on the phone (at SECTV-WB) and they really didn't understand anything I was talking about but eventually transferred me to somebody else from one of the cablecard departments.
> 
> ...


Yea you just spoke to a CSR that may have some experience in pairing CableCards. She will probably ask her supervisor or the engineer I mentioned. I know that he will know the answer as he will contact Motorola(Arris) if necessary.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Thanks for your help with everything


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> Thanks for your help with everything


No problem. Give an update when you get the card installed.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

The CSR just gave me a call back. She tested a few cards in an older Tivo and it showed v6.25 for the Motorola which according to Tivo should support all 6-tuners.

She said she will make sure the installer brings that version because they do have older cards as well but she will make sure I get the latest one.

So far so good!!


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

If they are installing the Arris 6 tuner home media center, wouldn't that mean that at least the head end, and the cards in the Arris units, will support the required firmware for 6 tuners. The only question is what firmware is on the card you get. 

EDIT: Never mind, I see that it is SECV that is currently installing the Arris HMC, not SECTV.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Diana Collins said:


> If they are installing the Arris 6 tuner home media center, wouldn't that mean that at least the head end, and the cards in the Arris units, will support the required firmware for 6 tuners. The only question is what firmware is on the card you get.
> 
> EDIT: Never mind, I see that it is SECV that is currently installing the Arris HMC, not SECTV.


Hi Diana,
SECTV is installing the Arris unit also. The DVRs actually come with the card installed so the newer firmware is on the cards already. This would be similar to the one issue were new Roamio owners had to request a certain M card with a newer part number so all six tuners would work.

Also I know for certain that the retail CableCard devices have a separate channel map so if they actually update the cards in the STBs, it doesn't mean that the retail units get updated. 
If you perhaps to buy your own cable modem, which is the same that they are using, they will not update the consumer owned units because of liability issues.
They also figure if the retail CableCard units are functioning fine with the card that is installed they will leave it alone.
In my case, I own my cards so even though they can push an update to my cards, they probably won't. This will force me to dispose of the cards and rent a new one, as my division no longer sells them.

In fact, in the ten years since I have been using CableCards, I can not recall any updates to the cards.

I do know that in my division, there is only a dozen or so cards in use. I have two and I know that the rest is on older TiVos and CableCard TVs. This is out of an estimated 50,000 subs.


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 6, 2014)

Glad to see someone on here with the similar concerns and intentions. I am on Dish right now with a Hopper, but I am getting tired of these constant negotiations and losing channels. 

I don't want to hijack this thread, but let me know how your transition goes. I am going to make a separate thread right now but for Comcast.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

LOL the thread was already WAY hijacked into the Service Electric Cablecard provisioning thread. Not very much discussion about Roamio vs. Hopper here.

My only add, not being a Dish customer (I'm on Comcast), is that I wouldn't be a very happy Dish customer given their constant fighting and dropping of channels. I mean they don't carry AMC either, right? Gotta have me some AMC dramas, it's one of the best cable networks around.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

slowbiscuit said:


> LOL the thread was already WAY hijacked into the Service Electric Cablecard provisioning thread. Not very much discussion about Roamio vs. Hopper here.
> 
> My only add, not being a Dish customer (I'm on Comcast), is that I wouldn't be a very happy Dish customer given their constant fighting and dropping of channels. I mean they don't carry AMC either, right? Gotta have me some AMC dramas, it's one of the best cable networks around.


The current Dish retrans fight is Turner, not AMC. AMC was resolved in 2012 I think. Last year's included Media General which affected me. CBS and TBS/TNT are coming up before the end of the year though. CBS will be interesting after their dispute with TWC.

I believe AMC is coming up for renewal on DirecTV which should be interesting.


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## joetekcor (Sep 15, 2014)

I was a long time Dish customer who until 3 months ago had 2 1st Gen Hoppers and 4 Joeys in my house. I cancelled Dish and purchased the Roamio OTA. Between OTA and the Internet I'm getting just about everything I need.

As far as the Roamio hardware goes it's great. Just as fast and responsive as the Hopper. Actually it's probably more responsive than the Hopper at times. Yes I miss the autohop and Prime Time Anytime features but with 4 tuners I can record anything OTA that I want.

The multiroom functionality is the only thing I truly miss. I have Roku's throughout the house but only one Tivo for OTA. I haven't invested in any Mini's yet so we have to go old school and gather in front of the Living Room TV to watch our Prime Time shows.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

joetekcor said:


> I was a long time Dish customer who until 3 months ago had 2 1st Gen Hoppers and 4 Joeys in my house. I cancelled Dish and purchased the Roamio OTA. Between OTA and the Internet I'm getting just about everything I need.
> 
> As far as the Roamio hardware goes it's great. Just as fast and responsive as the Hopper. Actually it's probably more responsive than the Hopper at times. Yes I miss the autohop and Prime Time Anytime features but with 4 tuners I can record anything OTA that I want.
> 
> The multiroom functionality is the only thing I truly miss. I have Roku's throughout the house but only one Tivo for OTA. I haven't invested in any Mini's yet so we have to go old school and gather in front of the Living Room TV to watch our Prime Time shows.


FYI: I find the Mini experience to be far snappier than what I had with the Joey. I won't miss the big pauses the Joey always delivers.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

joetekcor said:


> The multiroom functionality is the only thing I truly miss. I have Roku's throughout the house but only one Tivo for OTA. I haven't invested in any Mini's yet so we have to go old school and gather in front of the Living Room TV to watch our Prime Time shows.


I would've agreed with you before the recent Mini price drop, but multiroom is really a non-issue now whether you go with Tivo or Dish.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Is there any way to view channel bitrate or export a QAM channel listing?

I'd like to see if Service Electric (SECTV) is using 2:1 HD channels per QAM, etc.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

sofakng said:


> Is there any way to view channel bitrate or export a QAM channel listing?
> 
> I'd like to see if Service Electric (SECTV) is using 2:1 HD channels per QAM, etc.


If it's SECTV Lehigh Valley, I guarantee they use 3:1 since they still support a lot of analog stations and wouldn't have space to do 2:1. (I'm a former customer.)

I wish the Tivo would spit out QAM frequency lists easily, but you can only examine a few channels at a time manually by going under System Info > DVR Diagnostics.

You can also make a good guess by examining program sizes. If a 1 hour HD program is roughly 5.x GB, that's a channel using 3:1. If it's closer to 7GB/hr, it'll be 2:1.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

I'm in SECTV but the Wilkes-Barre region. I have no idea if they still have analog channels but I'm guessing they do since they are the same company (SECTV).

I'll be curious to see the picture quality, but I'm going to be comparing Dish and SECTV (with Tivo Roamio) to see which I prefer. I was hoping for 2:1 QAM channels which I think would beat Dish Network's but 3:1 will probably be close.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> I'm in SECTV but the Wilkes-Barre region. I have no idea if they still have analog channels but I'm guessing they do since they are the same company (SECTV).
> 
> I'll be curious to see the picture quality, but I'm going to be comparing Dish and SECTV (with Tivo Roamio) to see which I prefer. I was hoping for 2:1 QAM channels which I think would beat Dish Network's but 3:1 will probably be close.


It will be 3:1. It would not make any difference if they do 2:1 as it is totally dependent on what the bit rate is coming off the birds. 
If Discovery is sending Discovery HD at 6 to 8 million bits/second in MPEG 4, the cable system will send it down to its customers around 10 to 12 million bits/second in MPEG 2. Running it at a higher bit rate will not improve the picture quality.
Since QAM 256 can support a bit rate of 38.8 million bits/second, then they can easily fit 3 HD channels to one QAM.
Now with the Wilkes Barre broadcast channels, WBRE HD and WYOU HD will come to you at 17.8 million bits/second. WNEP HD is lower at about 13 million bits/second because they stat mux WNEP 2 on their signal. WVIA HD is lower at around 10 million bits/second as they are stat muxing 4 channels on their feed. WOLF HD is also low as they also broadcast WQMY HD on their signal. So with the broadcast channels you will not see the difference between the antenna feed and the cable feed.

The term used in the industry is WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get). If the source sends a crappy picture then the cable/sat operator will send the same crappy picture to you. You can not improve a poor quality feed by increasing the downstream bit rate.
All the sat/cable operators receive the same feed. Nobody gets anything special. 
FiOS is no different as their head ends are configured the same as a traditional cable operator. The only difference is how the feed travels from the head end to the side of your house. After that it is all the same.

Once the cable ops switch to MPEG 4 then they can easily fit 4 HDs to each QAM. Maybe 5 depending on the feeds from the source.


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

Chalk me up as another Hopper dumper. Should be gone by Monday as long as the mail makes it tomorrow.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Thanks for the info Jed.

I understand what you're saying and I know it's further complicated by the MPEG-4 vs MPEG-2 compression differences, but I thought that Service Electric (and Comcast, etc), were compressing the stream after they received it from the transmitters to fit more channels on their system.

For example, if they reduce the bitrate they can offer more HD channels but at worst picture quality.

According to the technician who was at my house, SECTV uses QAM64 which is only 27 Mbps. Three HD channels per QAM is only 9 Mbps per channel. MPEG-4 (H.264) would have amazing quality at that bitrate, but MPEG-2 needs a much higher bitrate.

...or am I not understanding correctly?

If SECTV is simply passing their incoming feed to the residential outlets than in theory you are achieving the best possibly quality and not even FIOS would make a difference, right? ...but I believe SECTV and Comcast compress the signal, etc.

Regardless, last night I finally had my Tivo connected and am very happy with the SECTV quality. I did comparisons with Dish (by switching TV inputs back/forth) and couldn't notice too much of a difference. I do prefer the MPEG-4 compression artifacts/blurring versus the MPEG-2 noise but it's not too different.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

sofakng said:


> ...Three HD channels per QAM is only 9 Mbps per channel. *MPEG-4 (H.265)* would have amazing quality at that bitrate, but MPEG-2 needs a much higher bitrate...


As an aside, MPEG-4, a.k.a. AVC (Advanced Video Coding) is H.264, not H.265. H.265 is MPEG-H, a.k.a. HEVC (High efficiency Video Coding) and is the standard video codec for UHD (4K) TV.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Ooops. That was a typo. Thanks!


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

> Thanks for the info Jed.
> 
> I understand what you're saying and I know it's further complicated by the MPEG-4 vs MPEG-2 compression differences, but I thought that Service Electric (and Comcast, etc), were compressing the stream after they received it from the transmitters to fit more channels on their system.
> 
> For example, if they reduce the bitrate they can offer more HD channels but at worst picture quality.


NO. Service Electric never sacrificed picture quality for channel quantity.
When I started with HD in 2004, there was only 4 HD channels and they were the 4 broadcast channels from Philadelphia. WVIA was the first HD channel from Wilkes Barre.
In the early days of HD, companies like Comcast were caught up in the HD channel count war. They had limited bandwidth because of the number of analog channels. The equipment used was not very good at encoding because of poor encoding algorithms, so you ended with a marginal result. As time went by the encoders got better and the algorithms improved substantially, which gave much better results.

I remember when WYOU and WBRE went HD, they ended up burning out three encoders as they had to run them at max bit rate to get a decent picture. If they ran it any lower, the picture would macro block. The fourth encoder was on improved model and did a far better job and it did not need to be run flat out anymore.



> According to the technician who was at my house, SECTV uses QAM64 which is only 27 Mbps. Three HD channels per QAM is only 9 Mbps per channel. MPEG-4 (H.264) would have amazing quality at that bitrate, but MPEG-2 needs a much higher bitrate.
> 
> ...or am I not understanding correctly?


I do believe the tech is wrong as I know that all downstream feeds to the customer is modulated to QAM256. This is actually an industry standard. I never seen anything modulated at a lower order of QAM on the downstream channels.
You can check this in your TiVo menu by going to setting and messages, then to account info and diagnostics, then to DVR diagnostics. Look at the 4th line it will say modulation. After that it should say QAM256. It will say that for each of the 6 channels you are tuned to.

The reason MPEG4 can produce high quality results at lower bit rates is the video stream is broken into 6 components and compression is applied to each video component separately. Whereas MPEG2 compresses the entire video stream equally and require higher bit rates to achieve the same level of picture quality that MPEG4 can produce at lower bit rates.



> If SECTV is simply passing their incoming feed to the residential outlets than in theory you are achieving the best possibly quality and not even FIOS would make a difference, right? ...but I believe SECTV and Comcast compress the signal, etc.


Correct FioS is no differnet in picture quality as there is only one standard for delivering TV over a closed loop cable TV system. All cable systems are built to the same standard.
Realistically all cable and satellite operators compress their signals as there is a limited amount of bit rate available for each channel.
With cable TV each channel is 6MHz in size and can only carry 38.8 million bits/second using QAM256. OTA broadcasters can only carry 19.4 million bits/second over their 6MHz channels using 8VSB.

Verizon had a statistical advantage in the earlier days as they did not have to carry any legacy analog subscribers as the FCC exempted them from any regulations requiring analog TV. Verizon built their system from the ground up as a 1GHz all digital system.
One of the problems that Verizon will be plagued with is their equipment is now a decade old and becoming obsolete. If they are going to continue delivering TV and internet services going forward, they will have to start considering making equipment upgrades.
Their advantage over the traditional cable operators like Service Electric has been wiped out as the cable operators have caught up and even surpassed Verizon's Fios capabilities.
It looks like my division of Service Electric may be all MPEG4 before Verizon is.



> Regardless, last night I finally had my Tivo connected and am very happy with the SECTV quality. I did comparisons with Dish (by switching TV inputs back/forth) and couldn't notice too much of a difference. I do prefer the MPEG-4 compression artifacts/blurring versus the MPEG-2 noise but it's not too different.


Actually you should not see any artifacts at all in any feed especially MPEG4. My division of Service Electric has been changing to the MPEG4 feeds from the sources as they negotiate new transmission agreements. Right now they are going to encrypt their entire lineup. This will allow them to put a bunch of MPEG4 equipment in the customers homes. Then they will start the switch from MPEG2 to MPEG4. The HD in my system is very clear and sharp. Some of the channels actually hurt my eyes in a low lighting environment. 
Your division is about a year or so behind mine as they are still removing the analog channels yet.

Oh are you getting six channels on your Roamio? I am assuming you are since you did not mention it.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

You're right... I just checked and SECTV is using QAM256 and not QAM64.

I also just checked the SECV channel line-up and you guys have _everything_. I'm incredibly jealous but I hope that SECTV catches up and matches your channel list. You guys have stuff like Nick Jr HD (which my kids watch a lot), and not even the major providers offer that.

Supposedly SECTV is going to eliminate analog channels by next September (according to same tech), but he said he wouldn't be surprised if the extend it.

Anyways, I'm jealous of the SECV area!


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

joetekcor said:


> I was a long time Dish customer who until 3 months ago had 2 1st Gen Hoppers and 4 Joeys in my house. I cancelled Dish and purchased the Roamio OTA. Between OTA and the Internet I'm getting just about everything I need.
> 
> As far as the Roamio hardware goes it's great. Just as fast and responsive as the Hopper. Actually it's probably more responsive than the Hopper at times. Yes I miss the autohop and Prime Time Anytime features but with 4 tuners I can record anything OTA that I want.
> 
> The multiroom functionality is the only thing I truly miss. I have Roku's throughout the house but only one Tivo for OTA. I haven't invested in any Mini's yet so we have to go old school and gather in front of the Living Room TV to watch our Prime Time shows.


If you don't mind my asking, why did you go with the Romio OTA instead of the Roamio. The OTA pricing is pretty bad. In fact, the Roamio has a LOWER monthly rate, if I remember correctly, and comes with the option for Lifetime should you decide to go that route while OTA is a higher monthly fee that never ends and with no Lifetime. Thanks.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Series3Sub said:


> If you don't mind my asking, why did you go with the Romio OTA instead of the Roamio. The OTA pricing is pretty bad. In fact, the Roamio has a LOWER monthly rate, if I remember correctly, and comes with the option for Lifetime should you decide to go that route while OTA is a higher monthly fee that never ends and with no Lifetime. Thanks.


You are right that there is no lifetime option for the OTA, but the monthly service fee is the same ($14.99). However, I don't think the OTA will qualify for the multi-service discount if you happen to have more than one TiVo DVR on your account.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

I've been investigating the SECTV feed using my HDHomeRun and TSReader and SECTV is using 3:1 HD channels per QAM. (which seems to be standard practice for most cable providers)

However, I do believe they must be re-encoding and reducing the bitrate of the feeds because one QAM (256) is only 38.8 Mbps as you mentioned, and that only fits two 19 Mbps feeds, but SECTV is placing three of them per QAM.

TSReader also shows the bitrate of each MPEG stream, and most are 10 - 12 Mbps.

You seem to know much more than I do, but I really believe that SECTV is reducing the bitrate of all their HD channels the same as Comcast, etc. SECV not having digital channels is probably much better quality (or they are using the extra bandwidth for more HD channels)

Anyways... my decision between keeping Dish Network or switching to SECTV is still difficult to make!

EDIT: Here are some examples of the QAM muxes:

483 MHz: ESPN (HD), USA (HD), BRAVO (HD)
759 MHz: WNEP (HD), WVIA (HD), WNEP2 (SD), WVIA2 (SD), CREATE WB(?) (SD)
807 MHz: WYOU (HD), WBRE (HD), PCN (HD)
831 MHz: SPIKE (HD), VH-1 (HD), NICK (HD)


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> I've been investigating the SECTV feed using my HDHomeRun and TSReader and SECTV is using 3:1 HD channels per QAM. (which seems to be standard practice for most cable providers)
> 
> However, I do believe they must be re-encoding and reducing the bitrate of the feeds because one QAM (256) is only 38.8 Mbps as you mentioned, and that only fits two 19 Mbps feeds, but SECTV is placing three of them per QAM.
> 
> ...


The reason they are doing three per QAM is the feeds are coming to them in MPEG4 and at a bit rate of 6 to 8 million bits/second. They will encode those feeds to MPEG2. Since the bit rate is so low from the source there is no need to run these feeds at full bit rate as there is no benefit in picture quality. 10 to 12 million bits/second is about right for MPEG 4 feeds converted to MPEG2.
This even applies to the local broadcast channels. Perfect example is the channel that carries WNEP/WVIA. WNEP HD and WNEP2 come from the source this way. WVIA HD, WVIA Create, WVIA2 also come this way from the source. If you use an antenna, this is the way you would receive these channels.
Dish and Direct receive the same signal from the source. So does Verizon, Comcast,etc.
Once Service Electric moves the MPEG4, they will be able to fit 4 to 5 HD channels to one QAM with no decrease in picture quality.

The idea that cable companies reduce the bit rate to cram in more channels is something that was done in the distant past since they were legacy analog operators. Now that analog is a thing of the past, and the advancement in hardware, it is no longer needed to do this.
Service Electric never done this in the first place so it was never an issue here.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Thanks as always for your helpful information Jed!

I sent an e-mail to the manager at SECTV Wilkes-Barre asking a few questions, and they said they don't have any plans to migrate to MPEG-4 (darn) but they are hoping to remove all the analog channels by the end of 2015.

It definitely seems like SECTV is very far behind SECV.

Anyways, with Dish Network removing so many channels it seems like switching to cable (SECTV) is almost a no-brainer.

(By the way, it seems like my cablecard is working with all six tuners; The firmware is v6.25 which TiVo says is the version required and everything seems to work great!)


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> Thanks as always for your helpful information Jed!
> 
> I sent an e-mail to the manager at SECTV Wilkes-Barre asking a few questions, and they said they don't have any plans to migrate to MPEG-4 (darn) but they are hoping to remove all the analog channels by the end of 2015.
> 
> ...


Your Welcome.

SECTV is a bit behind my division as the oldest son who ran your division, died last year from cancer. His son took over. They are taking the analog shutdown slow as RCN really jumped the gun with their shutdown and SECTV is getting a lot of angry RCN customers. They had to bring in 11 Cable Services guys in order to keep up with all the installs. They are still running about a month behind.

My division is run by the daughter. She is very aggressive with keeping up with technology. The only problem is her system seems to be a bit over managed and a bit lacking in the technical department.

I am glad to hear that the six tuners are working with your M card. I could only confirm 4 tuners. I have the same firmware on my two cards.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Well... I've been testing the SECTV quality and unfortunately I'm not that happy. It could definitely be a source issue because Dish network also has pretty bad quality. Although, I seem to prefer the Dish Network MPEG-4 compression (at a low bitrate) rather than the MPEG-2 compression so that might be a factor. Dish seems more blurry but less artifacts, and SECTV (MPEG-2) seems sharper but whenever anything moves you have tons of little speckles, etc.

Last night I also downloaded something from Vudu in 1080p using HDX and it was AMAZING. Comparing that to satellite and cable is really making me think twice about canceling everything and only using OTA plus streaming...


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

sofakng said:


> Well... I've been testing the SECTV quality and unfortunately I'm not that happy. It could definitely be a source issue because Dish network also has pretty bad quality. Although, I seem to prefer the Dish Network MPEG-4 compression (at a low bitrate) rather than the MPEG-2 compression so that might be a factor. Dish seems more blurry but less artifacts, and SECTV (MPEG-2) seems sharper but whenever anything moves you have tons of little speckles, etc.
> 
> Last night I also downloaded something from Vudu in 1080p using HDX and it was AMAZING. Comparing that to satellite and cable is really making me think twice about canceling everything and only using OTA plus streaming...


Sounds a lot like my experience with TWC. Dish definitely looks better to me, despite the criminally low bitrates. I am very happy with OTA and streaming on my Roamio. If you can get decent OTA signal, I recommend giving it a try.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Is it legal for me to post a sample video file (i.e. trimmed to 30 seconds, etc) somewhere?

I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place with Dish vs Cable. Both are $90 for the packages that includes the kids programming. However, like I mentioned, Vudu's HDX quality absolutely blew me away. I know the cable and satellite providers have limits to work with (i.e. satellite transponder limits, QAM limits, etc), but these TV shows are obviously recorded in a much, much higher quality than what is being delivered.

TiVo OTA + Mini sounds pretty interesting... Live TV would be the major networks (I'm 2 miles away from the broadcast towers) and then Netflix/Amazon/Vudu for the other stuff. I do wish you could download Vudu and Netflix stuff though and have it appear in "My Shows" so it would be easier for the wife and kids.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> Well... I've been testing the SECTV quality and unfortunately I'm not that happy. It could definitely be a source issue because Dish network also has pretty bad quality. Although, I seem to prefer the Dish Network MPEG-4 compression (at a low bitrate) rather than the MPEG-2 compression so that might be a factor. Dish seems more blurry but less artifacts, and SECTV (MPEG-2) seems sharper but whenever anything moves you have tons of little speckles, etc.
> 
> Last night I also downloaded something from Vudu in 1080p using HDX and it was AMAZING. Comparing that to satellite and cable is really making me think twice about canceling everything and only using OTA plus streaming...


If you are seeing little speckles, that will be related to a bandwidth issue with your HDMI cable. If you are seeing macro blocking with motion, then you should call and let them know. This could be something as low power level for the channels in the head end.
I can verify when I was getting my feed from your head end none of these issues existed. I do not have any of these issues with the Hazleton head end.

Also if you have an LCD TV make sure you don't have it running in torch mode and turn off any enhancement settings as these things can add artifacts to your picture. I recommend cinema mode.
Also set your box to pass all resolutions to the TV as this will let your TV process the picture to its native mode. If the Roamio has a 1080p60 setting, uncheck it and let the TV do all the processing. Converting everything to 1080p60 on the Roamio may add artifacts as your TV will reprocess the signal again.
Check the 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i boxes. You can check 1080p24 pass through if your TV can do 24 frames per second.

Your feed from Dish also should be clear, not blurry, as this would indicate over compression by Dish.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Jed1 said:


> Your feed from Dish also should be clear, not blurry, as this would indicate over compression by Dish.


In my experience, Dish is "softer" looking than DirecTV and Cable, but, yes, it is clear, not blurry. It doesn't have the macroblocking reported on Uverse except in very high motion sequences, like the Big Bang Theory intro.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

ncted said:


> In my experience, Dish is "softer" looking than DirecTV and Cable, but, yes, it is clear, not blurry. It doesn't have the macroblocking reported on Uverse except in very high motion sequences, like the Big Bang Theory intro.


This makes sense as that show is on a broadcast channel. Since it is CBS network, it is likely running at full bit rate in MPEG 2. Dish squeezes all the broadcast networks, encoded in MPEG4, from a DMA onto one transponder. The hopper then records the entire transponder using one tuner.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Jed1 said:


> This makes sense as that show is on a broadcast channel. Since it is CBS network, it is likely running at full bit rate in MPEG 2. Dish squeezes all the broadcast networks, encoded in MPEG4, from a DMA onto one transponder. The hopper then records the entire transponder using one tuner.


They do this for almost all their channels. They've even played around with 6 channels per transponder.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Sorry... You guys are right. Dish's picture is definitely "soft" and not blurry. I've been trying to compare Dish and cable (SECTV) for the past week or so and it's still a pretty tough decision.

I think most of the time, both pictures aren't great so it might be a source issue.

I did notice that cable is much sharper almost every time (1920x1080i instead of Dish Network 1440x1080 perhaps?). However, motion on cable is a bit worse and can be distracting. I much prefer the MPEG-4 smoother ("soft") motion.

I don't think the bitrate is the problem though because I've examined a whole bunch of TiVo recordings and I'm getting 12 - 16 Mbps average bit rate. That should be comparable or better than Dish since they are only about 4 - 6 Mbps MPEG-4.

I need to decide what to do within the next 5 days though since that's my 30-day money back guarantee. :/


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

sofakng said:


> Sorry... You guys are right. Dish's picture is definitely "soft" and not blurry. I've been trying to compare Dish and cable (SECTV) for the past week or so and it's still a pretty tough decision.
> 
> I think most of the time, both pictures aren't great so it might be a source issue.
> 
> ...


I also noticed a difference between the motion of Dish's MPEG4 and the OTA MPEG2. It just looks different. After watching OTA for a while, going back to Dish looks weird too to me.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

sofakng said:


> Sorry... You guys are right. Dish's picture is definitely "soft" and not blurry. I've been trying to compare Dish and cable (SECTV) for the past week or so and it's still a pretty tough decision.
> 
> I think most of the time, both pictures aren't great so it might be a source issue.
> 
> ...





ncted said:


> I also noticed a difference between the motion of Dish's MPEG4 and the OTA MPEG2. It just looks different. After watching OTA for a while, going back to Dish looks weird too to me.


12 to 16 Mbps is appropriate for a source MPEG4 feed converted to MPEG2 for cable.
OTA is a little tricky as some stations are stat muxing other channels on their 6Mhz feed. PBS is definitely one. They may have up to four channels broadcasting and leaving the bit rate for their HD feed down to around 9 to 10 Mbps. 
ABC is another one, especially if you live in a market were they have Live Well HD broadcasting with ABC HD.
Here is a TSReader data for WABC out of NY City:
http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/ny-nyc/1328-0_0.htm
Most CBS affiliates are running full bit rates but there is some larger markets were they are now stat muxing additional channels on their feed.
You can check your market at this website.
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php


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## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

7 year Dish customer, until May 2014 when I went Roamio with TWC in Austin TX. TWC definitely softer/fuzzier than Dish. Also prefer motion in sports on Dish. My Dish account is on "pause" for $5/month while I run this lengthy "test" to make sure I want to stay with TWC. Also ran guided setup such that it has both my TWC and OTA channels in guide. A few times, I've played with trying OTA-only for a week. Harder than you might think, but I could probably survive.


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## sofakng (Dec 19, 2003)

Just as a test, I recorded a bunch of shows on my Dish Hopper DVR and my SECTV TiVo and then compared file sizes to get an average bitrate. I know this isn't completely accurate but I think it should give some kind of comparison:


```
TOON - Family Guy			- 3.18 Mb/s vs  7.38 Mb/s -- 2.32x
NATGEO - The Legend of Mick Dodge	- 4.96 Mb/s vs 11.73 Mb/s -- 2.36x
Food - Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives	- 4.40 Mb/s vs 12.51 Mb/s -- 2.84x
HGTV - Overseas and Underpriced		- 4.25 Mb/s vs 12.40 Mb/s -- 2.92x
H2 - Brad Meltzer&#8217;s Lost History	- 4.20 Mb/s vs 12.53 Mb/s -- 2.98x
GSN - Newleywed Game			- 4.09 Mb/s vs 12.41 Mb/s -- 3.03x
Discovery - *****in&#8217; Rides		- 3.83 Mb/s vs 11.67 Mb/s -- 3.05x
History - American Pickers 		- 4.20 Mb/s vs 13.40 Mb/s -- 3.19x
WNEP - Shark Tank			- 3.77 Mb/s vs 12.87 Mb/s -- 3.41x
AMC - The Walking Dead			- 3.48 Mb/s vs 12.00 Mb/s -- 3.45x
WBRE - Grimm				- 3.65 Mb/s vs 12.64 Mb/s -- 3.46x
A&E - Duck Dynasty         		- 3.88 Mb/s vs 13.90 Mb/s -- 3.58x
```
The cable (SECTV) bitrates are minimum twice (2x) the Dish bitrate and averages around 3x. I would think even a bad MPEG-2 encoder would complete very well having three times the bitrate compared to MPEG-4, right?

I'm pretty sure I'll be canceling Dish soon...


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

sofakng said:


> Just as a test, I recorded a bunch of shows on my Dish Hopper DVR and my SECTV TiVo and then compared file sizes to get an average bitrate. I know this isn't completely accurate but I think it should give some kind of comparison:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


Dish has certainly made the most of the available resources.


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