# Best Solutions for Adding Storage to PC for Tranferred Tivo Programs?



## Ariette (Aug 27, 2005)

Can Tivo programs on my PC be put into a cloud/ online storage service and then accessed again on PC and Tivo?

What specs should I look for in external hard drives for my PC Tivo programs? Do I have to have eSata or is USB enough?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Ariette said:


> Can Tivo programs on my PC be put into a cloud/ online storage service and then accessed again on PC and Tivo?


I wouldn't do that -- these are insanely large files we're talking about. Theoretically, though, sure, if they give you that much space, and you don't mind the wait (since transfer times would be limited by your Internet speed).

Other than that, storage is storage. There aren't any special requirements for storing video -- except that, since the files are so large, you don't want to use FAT as the filesystem. (But it shouldn't be a problem to reformat any drive you get.)


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Ditto to everything wmcbrine just said. You COULD store it on someone's server somewhere, but...yikes. Just buy an external Seagate or Western Digital drive if you're trying to store more shows.


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## hershey4 (May 31, 2006)

I tried today to set my Tivo Desktop "My Tivo" folder to a folder on a network drive (NTFS) attached to my router and it wouldn't allow it. When I browsed to that folder as part of changing my folder preference, the "OK" button got greyed out. Maybe because it was network? 

I wanted to get the Tivo files off my local hard drive because I don't need them taking up space in my image backups. I can do periodic backups manually as needed.

However, I did copy some Tivo files to the network drive anyhow. But only Windows Media Player could open them -- not Tivo Desktop, so its not the same. But it might be good enough. I'm trying to decide whats best for my usage. I think my Tivo can see that drive too so that might be useful for tv playback -- but not for pc usage.

Plus, USB for transfer is less than ideal.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

Desktop won't let you set a network drive as the default location. It has to be physically attached to the computer. If you create a shortcut from My TiVo Recordings to the network folder Desktop will be able to see the files, it just won't put new recordings there.


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## Ariette (Aug 27, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> I wouldn't do that -- these are insanely large files we're talking about. Theoretically, though, sure, if they give you that much space, and you don't mind the wait (since transfer times would be limited by your Internet speed).


Transfer times? Are we talking about transfer times from PC to Cloud or from Cloud back to PC/ Tivo or both?

How long of difference in transfer times? I guess PC to external drive would take only minutes, while PC to cloud would take hours, like Tivo to PC using Desktop?

As far as cost goes, Bitcasa is now offering unlimited cloud storage for $49-$99 a year. See C|NET Article. What are peoples' opinions about Bitcasa?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Ariette said:


> I guess PC to external drive would take only minutes, while PC to cloud would take hours, like Tivo to PC using Desktop?


For most people, PC to cloud would be much slower than TiVo to PC (which, yes, is already slow enough).


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## Ariette (Aug 27, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> For most people, PC to cloud would be much slower than TiVo to PC (which, yes, is already slow enough).


So, wouldn't PC to Cloud be too slow for anything? Wouldn't it be too slow for docs, photos, etc. too? If so, is cloud a good choice for any type of storage?

I have Comcast Performance High Speed Internet. I'm not sure exactly what my speed is or where to find that out.


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## Ariette (Aug 27, 2005)

Ariette said:


> As far as cost goes, Bitcasa is now offering unlimited cloud storage for $49-$99 a year. See C|NET Article. What are peoples' opinions about Bitcasa?


Before my previous post, I had started this new thread about Bitcasa. Not sure if Bitcasa or my new thread will be useful to anyone, but here's the New Thread.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Ariette said:


> Wouldn't it be too slow for docs, photos, etc. too?


Those are infinitely smaller than video files (especially the full-res MPEG-2 files you get from a TiVo).


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## hershey4 (May 31, 2006)

ggieseke said:


> Desktop won't let you set a network drive as the default location.


Why not? Is that a bug? I don't see any difference.

From my Tivo, I could see the network drive as well as my PC's "My Tivo Recordings" and both of them behaved identically. I expected to see a PLAY button but both only had a TRANSFER (then play) button. They both could transfer as fast or faster than real time so I could watch immediately.

On the PC, WMP accesses and plays from either location. So now I'm not sure of any benefit of keeping them inside the Tivo Desktop.

BTW, my new router had some "tivo-friendly" network feature available but I didn't pay a lot of attention to it at the time. Now I see it could really be useful if Tivo Desktop would let me use it.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

Early versions did let you do that, but it caused so many problems they finally added code to prevent it. If the default location is unavailable for any reason Desktop crashes hard.


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## pmiranda (Feb 12, 2003)

I'm pretty sure my tivo desktop works with network storage in windows, although it's on an assigned drive letter and fast (local Gb ethernet). But it's much easier to add a couple TB internal drive to a PC chassis, or if you don't have a spare bay, an external USB or eSATA one. Fast and easy. But first make sure you can actually transfer shows back and forth. My cableco restricts copy on all but the local over-the-air channels.


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## hershey4 (May 31, 2006)

pmiranda said:


> I'm pretty sure my tivo desktop works with network storage in windows, although it's on an assigned drive letter and fast (local Gb ethernet).


I just tried assigning a drive letter but TD still knew it was network. :-(



pmiranda said:


> . But it's much easier to add a couple TB internal drive to a PC chassis.


maybe for some folk! not for me!!!

Because I don't transfer too often, I think copying the .tivo files out of Desktop location to the network device won't be so bad. I can't see any advantage to keep them in their original location. For regular usage, this would probably not be a good solution, but for me, I think will be ok, but I still think TD should allow it.

I can't think of anyway to point to the cloud though. That does seem like a valid place that should work -- local wifi or internet shouldn't make much difference.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Its a huge difference in access speed. Transfer the show to a local drive and then store it where you want. 

Oh, and since you mentioned Comcrap intenet, your total transfer quantitiy is limited to about 300GB a month. This includes up and down. Moving video files around will eat that up pretty quick.


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## hershey4 (May 31, 2006)

jcthorne said:


> Oh, and since you mentioned Comcrap intenet, your total transfer quantitiy is limited to about 300GB a month. This includes up and down. Moving video files around will eat that up pretty quick.


Hmmm... didn't know that. Actually I have Chartercrap internet not Comcrap. They probably have a similar limit. Does that limit include a local network device? Moving files from my harddrive to my network device isn't using wifi.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Regarding USB, even USB 2.0 is in the 25MB/s range, which is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY faster than virtually anyone's Internet connection. USB 3.0 drives are more like 100MB/s (at least my Seagate drives are), which is basically equivalent to having it plugged in locally.



Ariette said:


> How long of difference in transfer times? I guess PC to external drive would take only minutes, while PC to cloud would take hours


Or days, or weeks, or months...

Assuming you had some kind of storage that could actually handle that, which would cost a fortune, and assuming you have an unlimited ISP, and most people don't. Not to mention the security implications involved.

It's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY cheaper, easier, faster, and safer to just use your own drives.



Ariette said:


> So, wouldn't PC to Cloud be too slow for anything? Wouldn't it be too slow for docs, photos, etc. too? If so, is cloud a good choice for any type of storage?


It's only okay for things where you don't care if they're secure, they aren't very big, and it doesn't matter if you lose access to them.



> I have Comcast Performance High Speed Internet. I'm not sure exactly what my speed is or where to find that out.


20Mb/s max theoretical. With a 250GB monthly bandwidth cap. That's at BEST 2.5MB/s, or 1/10th USB 2.0 speeds, and in reality you never get what they claim your speed is.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Puppy76 said:


> It's only okay for things where you don't care if they're secure, they aren't very big, and it doesn't matter if you lose access to them.


Or in the case where they are big, but you won't mind waiting around for storage or retrieval (archival-type data). Or if you wanted offsite backups in case you lose access to the local copies (fire, theft, other miscellaneous disasters). A reasonably high degree of security can also be accomplished, if desired, through local encryption prior to transferring to the cloud.

But for TiVo transfers, I agree with the crowd: local storage would be preferable for virtually all situations. Maybe if you're a college student sitting on a really fat pipe with no caps, not much space in your dorm room for extra devices, not much cash, and way too much free time


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

hershey4 said:


> Why not? Is that a bug?


I consider it one - among many. It's one reason I do not use TDT.



hershey4 said:


> I don't see any difference.


Between a network share and a locally attached drive? There are quite a few. Among other things, with a Windows machine, the network share is not defined until one logs in, and one user's share may not be the same as another on the same machine. Linux does not suffer from this particular limitation, but then there is no Linux port of TDT... which is another reason I don't use TDT.



hershey4 said:


> On the PC, WMP accesses and plays from either location. So now I'm not sure of any benefit of keeping them inside the Tivo Desktop.


I don't take your meaning, here.



hershey4 said:


> BTW, my new router had some "tivo-friendly" network feature available but I didn't pay a lot of attention to it at the time. Now I see it could really be useful if Tivo Desktop would let me use it.


Do yourself a favor. Dump TDT.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ggieseke said:


> Early versions did let you do that, but it caused so many problems they finally added code to prevent it. If the default location is unavailable for any reason Desktop crashes hard.


'Must have been very early. I've tried them all for quite some years, now.



pmiranda said:


> I'm pretty sure my tivo desktop works with network storage in windows


Not with any version I have ever tried, and I have tried quite a few.



pmiranda said:


> although it's on an assigned drive letter and fast (local Gb ethernet).


'Not that I have been able to get to work. Indeed, I was told one could it could be made to work by editing the registry and inputting a network resource directly, but I have never bothered to try.



pmiranda said:


> But first make sure you can actually transfer shows back and forth. My cableco restricts copy on all but the local over-the-air channels.


I used to be with one who did (Time Warner), but I switched. 'Not that it made any difference, in that realm. I circumvented the issue when I was with TWC. Now it is a moot point.


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## hershey4 (May 31, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Between a network share and a locally attached drive? There are quite a few. Among other things, with a Windows machine, the network share is not defined until one logs in, and one user's share may not be the same as another on the same machine. ..


which would be a good reason not to use a drive letter. However, the network address of \\readyshare\blah\blah should be constant throughout the system and valid before any user logs in. I access that drive from other devices with no one logged in. TDT is not being smart here. I know... I know... that's one reason you don't use TDT... I assume the services TDT starts up are for AllUsers rather than a user. I would prefer it started up no services until I am ready to use it, but that's another story...



lrhorer said:


> I don't take your meaning, here.


What I meant by 
"On the PC, WMP accesses and plays from either location. So now I'm not sure of any benefit of keeping them inside the Tivo Desktop." ...​
is that I could utilize my network drive by using TDT _just_ for the transfer and then manually copy them over to the network drive. My PC can see them for whatever I may want to do with them there. My Tivo can see them for transfering/playing. I was trying to learn if there was any other reason to keep them on the hard drive in "My Tivo Recordings" visible to TDT. Seeing as you don't even like/use TDT, I guess you would say no. The underlying question is does TDT have any features I will be missing by moving my transferred files out immediately after transfer?


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## hershey4 (May 31, 2006)

hershey4 said:


> The underlying question is does TDT have any features I will be missing by moving my transferred files out immediately after transfer?


Duh lightbulb!!! That's not the question at all!!!

Combining the two points above, the real solution is if I move my transferred files (manually) to my network drive, then my PC does not have to even be on and I can access network-hosted Tivo Recordings from my TV. That has to be a stronger advantage than leaving them on the hard drive for whatever.

I'll have to try that the next time my PC is off to be sure none of those background PC services are involved. I don't think they will be.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Ariette said:


> Can Tivo programs on my PC be put into a cloud/ online storage service and then accessed again on PC and Tivo?
> 
> What specs should I look for in external hard drives for my PC Tivo programs? Do I have to have eSata or is USB enough?


Do you already have any experience with the TiVo Desktop program?

I have found that, running the program on Windows XP, I can put into the My TiVo Recordings folder (where it wants to store the shows it copies from the TiVo or TiVos) shortcuts to partitions on other drives, and when I look at the computer's folder in the TiVo's Now Playing List, I can open it and the partitions are available there as folders.

There are other programs for handling TiVo-PC relations, but I haven't gotten around to playing with any of them yet, I'm still to busy archiving Mom's doctor shows.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

hershey4 said:


> I assume the services TDT starts up are for AllUsers rather than a user. I would prefer it started up no services until I am ready to use it, but that's another story...


This is one of the places where pyTivo has an advantage -- you don't have to set it up as an always-on server, but can start it and stop it on demand.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

I have found it easier to just give the TiVos their own computers.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Guys, if you're not using Tivo Desktop, what ARE you using?



hershey4 said:


> I was trying to learn if there was any other reason to keep them on the hard drive in "My Tivo Recordings" visible to TDT.


You can move the folder Tivo Desktop uses by default. Can't remember where they normally put it, but I put it on my desktop on systems with one drive, and usually have it on the second drive on systems with two drives (with a shortcut to it on my desktop).

The only reason you'd need to keep files in the folder it transfers them to is if you want to transfer them back. I'd have no reason to ever transfer them back, but then I have no reason to take them out of that folder either.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

unitron said:


> I have found it easier to just give the TiVos their own computers.


Why, out of curiosity? I mean could be handy to have a box dedicated to copying stuff to it and transcoding and stuff, depending on what you do with it...


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Puppy76 said:


> You can move the folder Tivo Desktop uses by default. Can't remember where they normally put it, ...


Like practically everything else connected with Windows, it wants to put it all on the C: drive.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

unitron said:


> Like practically everything else connected with Windows, it wants to put it all on the C: drive.


Where else would it put it by default? I mean that's only normal a program's going to default to your default drive, particularly given most PCs only have a single drive.

I just couldn't remember what exact location it stuck it in. Maybe in your personal files or something.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Puppy76 said:


> Where else would it put it by default? I mean that's only normal a program's going to default to your default drive, particularly given most PCs only have a single drive.
> 
> I just couldn't remember what exact location it stuck it in. Maybe in your personal files or something.


C:\Documents and Settings\unitron\My Documents\My TiVo Recordings

(your username may vary)

Of course I never leave it there, but put it on it's own partition, but that's where it puts it first without offering you a choice ahead of time.

That's in XP, don't know if it's different in Vista on up.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Puppy76 said:


> Guys, if you're not using Tivo Desktop, what ARE you using?


pyTivo.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> pyTivo.


I will agree it is generally the best solution for a GoBack server, and what most people, including me, use. There are other solutions, however. Galleon is one. A NAS (like the ReadyNAS) that supports TiVo units is another. That said, I also agree pyTivo is probably the best solution for the OP, but it is wise to let people know there are other options, as well.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Puppy76 said:


> Where else would it put it by default? I mean that's only normal a program's going to default to your default drive, particularly given most PCs only have a single drive.


Totally off-topic, but interestingly enough, I loaded Windows XP on a system just a couple of days ago, and it assigned H: to the hard drive.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Not counting the St. TiVo's Day Massacre problem, or pretending that they send out patches to the TiVos themselves to fix the actual problem, to what extent do ReadyNAS servers support TiVo? 

Do they show up in the NPL just like the MTR folder on a PC running TD?

Is there any more to it than that?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

hershey4 said:


> which would be a good reason not to use a drive letter. However, the network address of \\readyshare\blah\blah should be constant throughout the system and valid before any user logs in.


Yep. It is perfectly brain dead TDT does not allow a network resource to be specified.



hershey4 said:


> I access that drive from other devices with no one logged in. TDT is not being smart here. I know... I know... that's one reason you don't use TDT...


Right you are, me laddie!



hershey4 said:


> I assume the services TDT starts up are for AllUsers rather than a user. I would prefer it started up no services until I am ready to use it, but that's another story...


Well, I certainly do start pyTivo along with all the other services on the RAID server at boot time. There is really no point in not doing so, and it is far more convenient than having to run over to a PC to start it whenever I want to transfer a video. That said, pyTivo can easily be started or stopped from any PC in the house.



hershey4 said:


> What I meant by
> "On the PC, WMP accesses and plays from either location. So now I'm not sure of any benefit of keeping them inside the Tivo Desktop." ...​
> is that I could utilize my network drive by using TDT _just_ for the transfer and then manually copy them over to the network drive.


Yeah or write a script to do it. That's a kludge, though. It's much easier just to run pyTivo on the file server.



hershey4 said:


> I was trying to learn if there was any other reason to keep them on the hard drive in "My Tivo Recordings" visible to TDT. Seeing as you don't even like/use TDT, I guess you would say no. The underlying question is does TDT have any features I will be missing by moving my transferred files out immediately after transfer?


Well, TDT Plus does, but there are far better apps to handle those, as well, whihc don't have the limitations of TDT.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

unitron said:


> Not counting the St. TiVo's Day Massacre problem, or pretending that they send out patches to the TiVos themselves to fix the actual problem, to what extent do ReadyNAS servers support TiVo?
> 
> Do they show up in the NPL just like the MTR folder on a PC running TD?
> 
> Is there any more to it than that?


I've never played with one, so I really can't say with any authority.


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## NowPlaying (Mar 7, 2002)

I added a hard drive to my desktop to store my video collection but it soon ran out of space. I recently bit-the-bullet and purchased a NAS for my file storage. I wrote about it on my blog here: http://www.craigharris.org/2013/02/21/my-new-synology-nas/

It works great with PyTivo. I haven't tried running PyTivo on the NAS itself yet but I have read that it can be done.


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## howards (Oct 31, 2007)

NowPlaying said:


> I added a hard drive to my desktop to store my video collection but it soon ran out of space. I recently bit-the-bullet and purchased a NAS for my file storage. I wrote about it on my blog here: http://www.craigharris.org/2013/02/21/my-new-synology-nas/
> 
> It works great with PyTivo. I haven't tried running PyTivo on the NAS itself yet but I have read that it can be done.


A quote from your blog:

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When I ran out of room I added a 2TB data drive. Then it started getting full If you are like many people you keep much of your file collection on an external USB drive. BAD! External drives are great for backups and Sneaker Netting large files but horrible for storage as (at least in my experience) their failure rate is quite high. 
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The physical drives used in external (e.g., USB) drives and those you installed in your NAS are the same drives. Failure rate of the drives themselves should be identical, except for manufacturer differences.

The only different points of failure would be your computer's hardware v.s. NAS hardware. Since most NAS servers are essentially packaged Linux computers, I think the hardware failure rate here would be similar as well. If you are running Windows, I'd give the nod to the NAS on a better software failure rate.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

howards said:


> The physical drives used in external (e.g., USB) drives and those you installed in your NAS are the same drives. Failure rate of the drives themselves should be identical, except for manufacturer differences.


Not necessarily. First of all, some USB enclosures are not very well vented, and the internal temps may be much higher in some cases. Probably more importantly, removable drives tend to get... well... removed. They tend to get bounced around a bit. This may well result in higher failure rates for the same piece of hardware used in various enclosures.


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## howards (Oct 31, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> Not necessarily. First of all, some USB enclosures are not very well vented, and the internal temps may be much higher in some cases. Probably more importantly, removable drives tend to get... well... removed. They tend to get bounced around a bit. This may well result in higher failure rates for the same piece of hardware used in various enclosures.


Drives can be abused regardless of the enclosure that contains them. You think NAS drives aren't removable?

If you're talking about industrial-strength NAS solutions that cost thousands, then I'd agree they are probably better cooled. Home NAS units aren't any better cooled than USB drives, IMO, and may be worse due to having multiple drives in close proximity.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

howards said:


> Drives can be abused regardless of the enclosure that contains them. You think NAS drives aren't removable?


Of course they are. Internal drives in a PC are removable, as well. People do not ordinarily pick them up and move them around the house - or the city - on a daily basis, however.



howards said:


> Home NAS units aren't any better cooled than USB drives, IMO, and may be worse due to having multiple drives in close proximity.


Most NAS systems I have seen have decent cooling. Admittedly some very low end ones do not. I have seen some truly abysmal cooling in external hard drives, however. As I said, however, it is probably getting bounced around that does most external drives in.


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## NowPlaying (Mar 7, 2002)

howards said:


> The physical drives used in external (e.g., USB) drives and those you installed in your NAS are the same drives. Failure rate of the drives themselves should be identical, except for manufacturer differences.


As I stated in my Blog, it is my experience that USB drives have a much higher failure rate. Perhaps I have just had a string of bad luck. I have owned several USB drives from several manufacturers and all have failed much sooner that I expected. As others have stated it is most likely due to heat build up in the enclosures.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

External drives seem to tend to have shorter warranty periods than retail bare drives.

I'm thinking the manufacturers know something.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

It seems like they should have active cooling fans, if nothing else...I keep seeing reviews saying how hot different external drives get, and how they fail fast... Of course I suppose most people who don't have issues won't review it, but still it worries me.


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