# DIRECTV to Introduce Additional TiVo Features



## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

If this is a dupe then I am sorry and a mod can delete it. Fast scan I didn't see it.
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-July 31, 2007--DIRECTV, Inc. (NYSETV), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, and TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ:TIVO), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), will develop a software upgrade to enhance the user experience for DIRECTV customers who have DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo(R) service built on the Series2(TM) platform.

Launching in early 2008, the new software download will provide these customers with DVR enhancements offered with the TiVo service, including a Recently Deleted Folder and Overlap Protection(TM), as well as DIRECTV's Remote Booking feature. In addition, DIRECTV and TiVo will continue to explore ways to bring future enhancements to DIRECTV customers with TiVo receivers.
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http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1034357&highlight=


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Earl just posted it in the non HD forum. Basically looks like an upgrade to current DirecTivo's which have been stale for quite some time.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

> "It is important to us that our customers with TiVo service also have access to the latest DVR technology and we look forward to *exploring additional opportunities with TiVo*," said Derek Chang, executive vice president, Content Strategy and Development for DIRECTV, Inc."


Emphasis added.

Hmmmmmmmmm.


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

Can anyone really say they saw "this" coming?


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## Rojma (May 18, 2002)

Finally just made the jump from my Tivo HR10-250 to an HR20. Unfortunately content, and not Tivo, is king (i.e., upcoming HD channels in September). Although the HR20 is not bad, it certainly is no Tivo, and would instantly switch out any receivers for Tivos if Tivos were made available that supported the newer MPEG4 format. One can only hope...


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Markman07 said:


> Can anyone really say they saw "this" coming?


I did eventually, but not this soon.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Markman07 said:


> Can anyone really say they saw "this" coming?


I can..


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

while i still have an unsubbed sony to watch, having 2 HDtivos now kinda makes me jealous. 

So what is the technological block to adding this to HDtivo since they can do it to the other ones?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

newsposter said:


> while i still have an unsubbed sony to watch, having 2 HDtivos now kinda makes me jealous.
> 
> So what is the technological block to adding this to HDtivo since they can do it to the other ones?


None that I am aware of...
Other then it is a seperate "code branch" off the Series 2 tree.

And given the number of HR10-250's is dimishing... it will probably be the last one to get the update, if it does get the update.


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## Cruzan (Dec 21, 2001)

Markman07 said:


> Can anyone really say they saw "this" coming?


I did, and posted as such. Of course, I got flamed.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

I could have used the Recently Deleted numerous times over the past couple of years.


phox


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

phox_mulder said:


> I could have used the Recently Deleted numerous times over the past couple of years.
> 
> phox


I've had it for longer than that with Tivoweb Plus


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Markman07 said:


> Can anyone really say they saw "this" coming?


Meaning what? I don't think this will have any effect on any of DirecTVs long term plans especially concerning MPEG4 and their brand of HD DVR. In other words if anyone thinks this will lead to a MPEG4 Tivo, I wouldn't hold your breath.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> Meaning what? I don't think this will have any effect on any of DirecTVs long term plans especially concerning MPEG4 and their brand of HD DVR. In other words if anyone thinks this will lead to a MPEG4 Tivo, I wouldn't hold your breath.


I think some people will be willing to hold their own breath.


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## jautor (Jul 1, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> Meaning what? I don't think this will have any effect on any of DirecTVs long term plans especially concerning MPEG4 and their brand of HD DVR. In other words if anyone thinks this will lead to a MPEG4 Tivo, I wouldn't hold your breath.


No, but the dual-company press release with quotes from both parties certainly sounds like there could be something more under discussion...

Given the Comcast software rollout starting this month, is it too far fetched to think that a possibility down the road could be a TiVo software download to live on the HR20?

The HR20 is improving, but I'd certainly pay a few extra $$$ for TiVo software running on that box!

Jeff


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## 94SupraTT (Feb 17, 2005)

Gunnyman said:


> I've had it for longer than that with Tivoweb Plus


ditto

Ditto.  Nice to see Tivo/D* making improvements to DirecTivos for those that don't want to hack their boxes.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Cruzan said:


> I did, and posted as such. Of course, I got flamed.


You did? Must have missed that one...
Can you link the thread, so we can see what other features maybe comming...


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

jautor said:


> No, but the dual-company press release with quotes from both parties certainly sounds like there could be something more under discussion...
> 
> Given the Comcast software rollout starting this month, is it too far fetched to think that a possibility down the road could be a TiVo software download to live on the HR20?
> 
> The HR20 is improving, but I'd certainly pay a few extra $$$ for TiVo software running on that box!


If someone could reasonably explain (and not just some far fetched wishful thinking) how keeping Tivo around (MPEG4 box) or switching the HR20 software to run Tivo software would be cost effective for DirecTV in any way, I would be glad to hear it. Just not going to happen IMO. Not this late in the HR20 rollout.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Mark Lopez said:


> If someone could reasonably explain (and not just some far fetched wishful thinking) how keeping Tivo around (MPEG4 box) or switching the HR20 software to run Tivo software would be cost effective for DirecTV in any way, I would be glad to hear it. Just not going to happen IMO. Not this late in the HR20 rollout.


Exactly. I think some folks are forgetting that the current TiVo/D* support agreement runs to early 2010. Since that agreement was inked, the HR10 was upgraded to the 6.x platform. This announcement appears to be a similar upgrade for the SD series 2's that are still out there and perhaps even the the HR10 next year, if past history is an indication of what's to come. /s


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

does recently deleted take up space reserve space on the drive and you have to 'clear out' the 'recycle bin' like in windows in order to reclaim space?


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## lancelot (Jul 8, 2006)

The explanation is that many folks, including me, simply do not like the HR20. It is better as of late. but for more than six months it was nothing but lock ups, missed recordings, etc. 

I was with Dish Network for almost 9 years, and I left them because of their crappy equipment and constant software problems. When I switched to Directv, I was so pleased with the Directivos and the HR10-250. They performed flawlessly, and were great additions to the Directv experience. When I added an R15, it was nothing but headaches. It was like going back to a VCR, except it didn't work as well. The same held true for the HR20. For months, nothing but problems. It reminded me of Dish Network equipment, only worse. 

So, I got rid of the R15 and replaced it with a TIVO R10--no more problems there. I've kept my HR10-250, and really enjoy it. I can't say the same for the HR20. No suggestions, it consistently misses first run recordings, and is not as easy to use.

If you view the archives at dbstalk.com, you will literally find thousands of complaints about the R15 and HR20, and they have not stopped, even to this day. Directv must have been flooded with calls from dissatisfied customers, at great cost, even if they didn't leave Directv.

So, in answer to your question, the foregoing is why Directv will save big dollars by putting out a new TIVO product rather than continuing its flawed journey with its own DVRs.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

phox_mulder said:


> I could have used the Recently Deleted numerous times over the past couple of years.
> 
> phox


that's interesting, I've NEVER had a need for it for as long as I've had a DVR...the only exception is when someone on the forum pleaded for a dvd burn of a show they missed and I had already deleted it...


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## Cruzan (Dec 21, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> You did? Must have missed that one...
> Can you link the thread, so we can see what other features maybe comming...


Here's one, although the responses are all thoughtful and measured. I'm still looking though...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=308373


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Maybe it has more to do with D* losing their edge. I really do not see a reason to upgrade the current Directv Tivos if they are not planning more of a long term commitment.

Look at it this way, it would be better to remove all ties to Tivo if they were not in your long term plans (and so planning a software update that really isn't needed does not make sense). It's because of their previous agreement with Tivo (and the knowledge of a better DVR) that Directv has such bad PR wih the new one.



sluciani said:


> Exactly. I think some folks are forgetting that the current TiVo/D* support agreement runs to early 2010. Since that agreement was inked, the HR10 was upgraded to the 6.x platform. This announcement appears to be a similar upgrade for the SD series 2's that are still out there and perhaps even the the HR10 next year, if past history is an indication of what's to come. /s


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Anubys said:


> that's interesting, I've NEVER had a need for it for as long as I've had a DVR...the only exception is when someone on the forum pleaded for a dvd burn of a show they missed and I had already deleted it...


That's it exactly.

Well, not a forum member, but a guy here at work who constantly asks for dubs of shows he knows I TiVo.

He has numerous TiVo's, but all stock hard drives, so he's constantly out of space, and can't watch stuff before it rolls off the drive.

Lately, he seems to ask for a dub after I've already watched and deleted it.

phox


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

magnus said:


> Maybe it has more to do with D* losing their edge. I really do not see a reason to upgrade the current Directv Tivos if they are not planning more of a long term commitment.
> 
> Look at it this way, it would be better to remove all ties to Tivo if they were not in your long term plans (and so planning a software update that really isn't needed does not make sense). It's because of their previous agreement with Tivo (and the knowledge of a better DVR) that Directv has such bad PR wih the new one.


Or maybe it's in TiVo's interest to continue to demonstrate to D* customers that they can make s/w improvements, with the hope that D*'s TiVo customers will continue to clamor for D* to cut a new deal with TiVo. 

The current TiVo support contract runs until 2010. I doubt D* can buy it out and sever ties as long as there are HDVR2's and HR10's out there that still need to be supported.

Just my .02. /steve


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I seriously doubt that. I would assume that their agreement before now had to do with support. So, that if there were issues that needed to be fixed.... then Tivo would be under contract to fix them.

It would make no sense for Tivo to do this out of goodwill or for future deals. I'm sure they are getting paid for this non-essential upgrade.



sluciani said:


> Or maybe it's in TiVo's interest to continue to demonstrate to D* customers that they can make s/w improvements, with the hope that D*'s TiVo customers will continue to clamor for D* to cut a new deal with TiVo.
> 
> The current TiVo support contract runs until 2010. I doubt D* can buy it out and sever ties as long as there are HDVR2's and HR10's out there that still need to be supported.
> 
> Just my .02. /steve


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

magnus said:


> I seriously doubt that. I would assume that their agreement before now had to do with support. So, that if there were issues that needed to be fixed.... then Tivo would be under contract to fix them.
> 
> It would make no sense for Tivo to do this out of goodwill or for future deals. I'm sure they are getting paid for this non-essential upgrade.


Software upgrades are also a support item, IMO. It's probably cheaper for TiVo to support the same s/w platform across all Series 2's (theirs and D*'s), then to continue support a legacy platform. I'm pretty sure porting their s/w to D* h/w is old hat to them by now, and didn't require a huge effort on their part.

Or, the last deal with D* stipulated "x" upgrades, and TiVo is fulfilling their end of it. There's just no way D* is paying extra for new features from TiVo at this time. Makes absolutely no financial sense. Just my .02. /s


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> If someone could reasonably explain (and not just some far fetched wishful thinking) how keeping Tivo around (MPEG4 box) or switching the HR20 software to run Tivo software would be cost effective for DirecTV in any way, I would be glad to hear it. Just not going to happen IMO. Not this late in the HR20 rollout.


Here is my reply to something similar in the other thread


ebonovic said:


> One thing to remember: before you all read "into it" too much...
> 
> It is in both DirecTV's and TiVo, Inc's best intrest to keep those 4,000,000ish SA TiVo subscribers....
> 
> ...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

sluciani said:


> Or maybe it's in TiVo's interest to continue to demonstrate to D* customers that they can make s/w improvements, with the hope that D*'s TiVo customers will continue to clamor for D* to cut a new deal with TiVo.
> 
> The current TiVo support contract runs until 2010. I doubt D* can buy it out and sever ties as long as there are HDVR2's and HR10's out there that still need to be supported.
> 
> Just my .02. /steve


Or simply means, they are trying to get their money's worth out of the existing contract?

If they are already paying for it... why not get any updates that are available.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

lancelot said:


> If you view the archives at dbstalk.com, you will literally find thousands of complaints about the R15 and HR20, and they have not stopped, even to this day. Directv must have been flooded with calls from dissatisfied customers, at great cost, even if they didn't leave Directv.


Go through the archives here as well...
You will "literally" find thousands of complains about the products talked about here as well.

And they haven't stopped to this day either...

The R15 and the HR20 are what they are....
And they are not being discontinued... and in fact the R15 is going to start seeing an increase in it's features, to catchup with the HR20...

And the HR20 is continued to be improved and worked on to add more features, and enhancements.

Neither one is going anywhere, or is being stopped.

But as a lot of you have pointed out:
What incentive is there for some to drop their SA-DTiVo for an R15?
Not much... Never has been... so why not upgrade the SA-DTiVos with some new features, to keep those people DirecTV customers... instead of them going else where?

As for the HR10-250... no software update can help that system.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> If someone could reasonably explain (and not just some far fetched wishful thinking) how keeping Tivo around (MPEG4 box) or switching the HR20 software to run Tivo software would be cost effective for DirecTV in any way, I would be glad to hear it. Just not going to happen IMO. Not this late in the HR20 rollout.


Maybe, maybe not. But I think a reasonable case could be made for a M4 Dtivo. It's pretty clear that there are lots of premium customers who would gladly pay an extra $1.25 a month (the amount DTV is losing to Tivo for each customer who has a HR10 rather than a HR20) to avoid the HR20. That means the only cost to DTV is the extra training for CSRs to support one more product (as if they got any training in the first place). Bump it to $2 and that's covered.

The name of the game in DBS/cable is customer satisfaction and retention. There are a lot of folks who are with DTV only because of Tivo, and who will bolt as soon as Tivo is out of the picture and another vendor comes along with greener grass than DTV. DTV could keep them as niche customers for little cost if there were a M4 box, and that gives them more content to sell to those who can then get it (you can't sell M4 content to a HR10 owner, after all). It's simple. Subsidize the cost of HR20's, but make DTivo/M4 customers shell out full price for the hardware. Any way you slice it, DTV would come out ahead. This would also prevent Tivo from making a deal with DISH, and maybe even with new cable ops if they work exclusivity into the agreement. And the HR20 rollout could continue on course.

Typically when a company makes a decision to drop a long-time partner and go in house, they would never go back just out of pride, but the new Liberty/Malone regime trumps that potential problem and means it's a whole new ballgame. Just because contracts have end dates doesn't usually indicate the end of an agreement. It more often indicates a milestone for a new or extended agreement.

Tivo wants it, customers want it, and DTV is in the driver's seat. Seems like a no-brainer to me.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Maybe but I really doubt that cause the more features you give on Directv Tivos the better the chance is that you are going to piss subscribers off when the agreement ends.



ebonovic said:


> Or simply means, they are trying to get their money's worth out of the existing contract?
> 
> If they are already paying for it... why not get any updates that are available.


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## 94SupraTT (Feb 17, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> Tivo wants it, customers want it, and DTV is in the driver's seat. Seems like a no-brainer to me.


I think you are overstating how many people want DirecTivos. Outside of those of us in this community most people don't know the difference between a Tivo and any other DVR. Not only that if they've never had a Tivo they don't know what they are missing. I honestly don't see much of a need from D* standpoint. We are a small group and I just am not confident that they are going to cater to us. I honestly hope they do. I'm holding out on getting a HR20 because of this....well that and the lack of dual live buffering, wishlists, hackability, etc. 



magnus said:


> Maybe but I really doubt that cause the more features you give on Directv Tivos the better the chance is that you are going to piss subscribers off when the agreement ends.


Excellent point.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Why does everyone think DirecTivo's will stop functioning on some magical day in 2010 when the current agreement ends? The support contract is between Tivo and DirecTV as in Tivo providing bug fixes and such. Not that support for the receivers themselves stops. 

Are not Ultimate TV DVRs still functioning just fine? Been what...5 years since the last one was sold?
If there is no more support agreement between Tivo and DirecTV it simply means no more Tivo providing software updates and bug fixes. Just like the UTV has been on it's last version for years. 

So we now have this update for the DirecTivo's. Why not get the machines some of the latest and greatest code that Tivo already has before the support contract runs out? Thus ensuring them a longer life until the hardware itself fails. Thus DirecTV retains these customers to eventually migrate them to other platforms as the hardware slowly dies out. Sounds like good business sense to me. But heck, what do I know...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

magnus said:


> Maybe but I really doubt that cause the more features you give on Directv Tivos the better the chance is that you are going to piss subscribers off when the agreement ends.


If people are still running on the 10 year old SD DTiVos in 2011ish when the contract end.......

Those harddrives are going to start failing 10 years is a very long time to run 24/7.
And out of the 4,000,000 how many of them are going to go through the hassle of having it repaired? (either by someone, or do it themselves)

If no new DirecTiVo's are built... at the end of that time period... there are going to be very few (compared to their) peek, that they can be accomidated.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Yes, I guess it would make more sense to allow the update (assuming that it costs you nothing) and pretend like you care about the customer.



ebonovic said:


> If people are still running on the 10 year old SD DTiVos in 2011ish when the contract end.......
> 
> Those harddrives are going to start failing 10 years is a very long time to run 24/7.
> And out of the 4,000,000 how many of them are going to go through the hassle of having it repaired? (either by someone, or do it themselves)
> ...


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## Jimmmmbo! (Jun 20, 2004)

And what about a hush-hush deal between D* and Tivo for future development on a new platform? Is that really so far-fetched? If they could do it for the Comcast Moto DVRs, I should think it's possible on the HR20 as well.

I wouldn't rule out a future between D* and Tivo for software UI work. Software development and support is extremely expensive, and the payback really only happens in selling the hardware, not the software. If D* can advertise "Tivo", and the general public hooks up on that as meaning "quality", there's value there.

I personally don't care if the HR20 gets Tivo or not; but contracting in the long term with Tivo, if Tivo can stand behind their work, can be profitable to D* if they don't have to do the SW development inhouse and fight patents and long turn times on SW releases because of inexperienced or unqualified internal SW development teams (assuming they have that problem).


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> Or simply means, they are trying to get their money's worth out of the existing contract?
> 
> If they are already paying for it... why not get any updates that are available.


Exactly. The current contract may require TiVo to provide maintenance releases as part of the deal. /s


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

lancelot said:


> The explanation is that many folks, including me, simply do not like the HR20. It is better as of late. but for more than six months it was nothing but lock ups, missed recordings, etc.


I asked for a reasonable explanation on how it would be cost effective. Just because a small percentage of people prefer Tivo does not make it cost effeective to switch platforms at this point or produce another one. And for every HR20 complaint, you can find one about the HR10 (i.e. short or missing recordings).



TyroneShoes said:


> Maybe, maybe not. But I think a reasonable case could be made for a M4 Dtivo. It's pretty clear that there are lots of premium customers who would gladly pay an extra $1.25 a month (the amount DTV is losing to Tivo for each customer who has a HR10 rather than a HR20) to avoid the HR20. That means the only cost to DTV is the extra training for CSRs to support one more product (as if they got any training in the first place). Bump it to $2 and that's covered.


I'll go with maybe not. Do you have any actual numbers to support your theory that there are a 'lot of premium customers that would prefer Tivo'? Do you have any idea of the actual overhead involved with supporting two different platforms? Do you have any idea of the actual costs of producing the new unit? Sorry, but it still makes no sense at this point.



TyroneShoes said:


> Tivo wants it, customers want it, and DTV is in the driver's seat. Seems like a no-brainer to me.


Tivo wants it? So what? Customers want it? How many? Based on the number of Tivo units in relation to total number of cusomers and factor in those that don't care either way about brand, and I think you will find it to be a fairly small number. So again, based on real numbers (percentages) the only no-brainier is for DirecTV to continue on the path it's on. And that does not include a MPEG4 Tivo nor a switch to Tivo software on their existing boxes.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Jimmmmbo! said:


> And what about a hush-hush deal between D* and Tivo for future development on a new platform?


If D* were still going to be the "exclusive" TiVo DVR provider in the cable/sat space, it might give them bragging rights and a competitive advantage. Now that the deals with Comcast and Cox have been struck, it makes even less sense for D* to help prop TiVo up, since TiVo is also working with their competitors.

According to the president of TiVo in a recent interview on CNBC, there have been a total of 4-4.5 million TiVo customers (I can't remember the exact number he mentioned). As we know, the majority of those customers have come from D*, and they are dwindling as boxes die or are replaced for MPEG-4 capable units.

If I were president of TiVo, my game plan would be to stop making h/w altogether and to develop the TiVo O/S free for every cable and sat company that might be interested, in the hopes of getting $2/month per subscriber from them in return. Just my .02. /s


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## lancelot (Jul 8, 2006)

sluciani said:


> If D* were still going to be the "exclusive" TiVo DVR provider in the cable/sat space, it might give them bragging rights and a competitive advantage. Now that the deals with Comcast and Cox have been struck, it makes even less sense for D* to help prop TiVo up, since TiVo is also working with their competitors.
> 
> According to the president of TiVo in a recent interview on CNBC, there have been a total of 4-4.5 million TiVo customers (I can't remember the exact number he mentioned). As we know, the majority of those customers have come from D*, and they are dwindling as boxes die or are replaced for MPEG-4 capable units.
> 
> If I were president of TiVo, my game plan would be to stop making h/w altogether and to develop the TiVo O/S free for every cable and sat company that might be interested, in the hopes of getting $2/month per subscriber from them in return. Just my .02. /s


I don't necessarily agree with your logic. For example, Motorola makes cell phones with their own software in them for numerous cell service providers. In fact, the vast majortity of TIVO subscribers come from Directv. If Directv starting using TIVO boxes again, TIVO's biggest customer base would expand exponentially, IMHO.

Further, Directv would save millions in needless calls to CSRs from many having endless technical issues with the R15, and the HR20.

Directv, if you are reading this, good job on updating the Directivo boxes. Now, make millions of us happy by starting again to make Directivo boxes for Directv.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

lancelot said:


> I don't necessarily agree with your logic. For example, Motorola makes cell phones with their own software in them for numerous cell service providers. In fact, the vast majortity of TIVO subscribers come from Directv. If Directv starting using TIVO boxes again, TIVO's biggest customer base would expand exponentially, IMHO.
> 
> Further, Directv would save millions in needless calls to CSRs from many having endless technical issues with the R15, and the HR20.
> 
> Directv, if you are reading this, good job on updating the Directivo boxes. Now, make millions of us happy by starting again to make Directivo boxes for Directv.


Motorola's business is to sell h/w, not to collect monthly subscriber fees. The s/w is the enabler that gets as much Motorola h/w out to as many folks as possible.

TiVo is not in the h/w business, they're in the monthly subscriber fee business. They need to get the O/S on as many boxes as possible to collect as much subscription revenue as possible.

Sure a deal with D* would expand their subscriber base, but what's D*'s incentive? They're signing up DVR customers at the rate of almost 300 daily since the beginning of the year without TiVo, and their monthly customer churn is no different than when they offered TiVo.

And there aren't millions of HR10 users to make happy, BTW. Problaby 100k-200k left of the original less than 500k.

/steve


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Just some numbers. I posted this in the similar thread in the non HD DirecTivo forum and a link is found there.

1st quarter 2006 earnings call stated that there was just over 250K HR10's out there and that it would increase slightly over the summer until the MPEG4 HD DVR would get introduced. So in total there was at it's peak 300K, maybe 350K HR10s.


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## Jimmmmbo! (Jun 20, 2004)

sluciani said:


> They're signing up DVR customers at the rate of almost 300 daily since the beginning of the year without TiVo, and their monthly customer churn is no different than when they offered TiVo.


Advertising these kinds of numbers are great at making stockholders happy about company growth prospects, but it says nothing about the overhead associated with that growth. User support and software development are still expensive, and the conjecture here is that Tivo can very probably do a better job of that than D*.


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## BBURNES (Jun 23, 2004)

I'll tell you why I believe there is way more to the story:

First of all, I have no inside knowledge. Second, I'm a TiVo fan. But objectively, this seems obvious:

Tivo -- as a brand name -- has tremendous value. Posters mention (quite correctly) that many consumers don't treat their DVR platform as the #1 reason reason for choosing TV distribution (TCF members the exception.) But if you asked consumers -- everything else equal -- whether they'd rather have TiVo as opposed to generic DVR, they'd say yes. TiVo is more dependable, lot more powerful, higher quality, well-known and, even in non-users' eyes, cooler...wish they had it.

But consumer choice in getting TiVo distribution has been limited lately. Since D* announced their decision to split with TiVo, no one has promoted it (other than TiVo themselves on SA units.) Many posters have mentioned that current D* subscribers have been successfully migrated to non-TiVo platforms -- both SD and HD. True. But that is due to lack of reasonable alternatives. Did cable have TiVo alternative? No. Did Dish? No. There are SA TiVos. But expensive both in hardware and subscription. So migration is relatively easy. 

However, TiVo distribution is set to explode; consumers increasingly now have choice. Comcast (#1 cable co) is launching their ComTiVo platform in a number of major markets in a FEW WEEKS. Testing is complete, Comcast has approved. Will perhaps be system-wide by early 08. 

Cox can't be too far behind since the heavy software development is complete on Comcast.

Other cable companies -- who often cooperate in cross-system initiatives -- will be watching closely. Possible that in a couple of years the rest of the cartel -- twice as big as D* and Dish -- may deploy. Also likely that more consolidation in the cable industry will happen in that time, making it even more likely that TiVo will be deployed.

Cable also has a tremendous advantage over satellite providers -- bundled broadband internet and telephone over cable. Sat providers have very tough time competing here. What was Rupert's nickname for D*? If I'm a cable company with good HD lineup, bundled high speed internet, phone services -- wouldn't I love to go to war against D* with TiVo now in my pocket?

Also, TiVo has just launched TiVo HD -- a super, more affordable product -- that will provide an HD alternative for HR10-250 users and others. Another cable product for the higher end user. Another tool in cable's war chest.

Rupert is nearly gone from D*. No NDS issue any longer.

As most of you know, TiVo's lawsuit with Dish is nearly over. TiVo has requested a delay in final responses to the appeals judge -- a highly unusual move since they've been aggressively pushing the timeline. One likely reason is that a deal is being negotiated between the companies to bring TiVo service to Dish (rather than simply taking a multimillion dollar settlement only.)

Of course, there are the dependability and service-related headaches that D* has with their own DVR platforms. 

Finally -- and this can't be underestimated -- D* issued a press release about this service enhancement and mentioned possible future enhancements. Press releases in public companies are reviewed by legal departments and staff members in strategic positions high in the company, particularly in areas involving partnerships. Particularly in areas involving "future" plans. Particularly in situations (like this one) where D* formerly announced a basic dissolution of the partnership. If the service enhancement was being exercized simply to get some free software development that was/was not contracturally coming to them, they would have never issued a press release. Not an event worth getting corporate lawyers and top-level people involved.

If I'm D*...

- watching as Comcast, other cable co's, possibly Dish, steal one of the country's best known brands and something that helped make my company unique

- watching them begin to PROMOTE TiVo service on their platforms as the "additional reason" to get someone off the fence (besides bundled broadband internet and telephone)

- watching as cable companies begin adding SDV (switched digital video) to greatly increase their ability to add content to their existing bandwidth (making my soon-to-be 150 HD channel advantage moot)

- watching them possibly steal many of my SD DirecTiVo users (soon to be HD users)

- know that at the very least, my own DVR platforms do NOTHING to differentiate my company from the competition (in fact, probably make me look more like the "generic cable company")

- know that a "broadband-connected" DVR, particularly with a cable co-provided broadband connection, is the wave of the future





- and Rupert is soon to be out of the way...





I'm beginning talks with D*, kissing and making up and ...





writing a press release.



We shall see. Very interesting to say the least.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

:up: :up: :up:


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Just a couple clarifications...



BBURNES said:


> Rupert is nearly gone from D*. No NDS issue any longer.


NDS isn't an issue now. The HR20 is *not* an NDS product. It's internal to DirecTV.



> - know that a "broadband-connected" DVR, particularly with a cable co-provided broadband connection, is the wave of the future


DirecTV knows this. That's why the HR20 is *already* "broadband connected" with MRV, online scheduling and VOD coming soon in addition to what it already can do.


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## TubaMan-Z (Apr 8, 2004)

I don't suppose the forthcoming HR20 MRV will work with TiVo's MRV?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

TubaMan-Z said:


> I don't suppose the forthcoming HR20 MRV will work with TiVo's MRV?


Highly doubtfull.


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## BGLeduc (Aug 26, 2003)

BBurnes, I like the way you think! 

Having said that, I have my doubts that Tivo will make a come back with D*, but I sure wish it would.

Brian


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I've had the HR20 for a month now. It is good enough for me. I never used wishlist and turned suggestions off years ago. There are a couple things I like better on the HR20 like the little picture showing what you're watching when in menus.

Saying that...I would switch back to TiVo if they get a new HD TiVo for D*. I won't pay $1,000 for one or something. So, I'd do it in a couple years when the price gets way down. (that is assuming a new one would come out being real expensive)


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

BBURNES said:


> I'll tell you why I believe there is way more to the story:
> 
> First of all, I have no inside knowledge. Second, I'm a TiVo fan. But objectively, this seems obvious:
> 
> ...


I won't comment on your enitre post, but just these items.

1. Most 'Joe Blow' consumers think every DVR is a Tivo since it's the generic name used all of the time. So I don't think the name has any real 'value' other than to the Tivo lemmings.

2. Who says Tivo is more dependable, more powerful etc. etc?  Look at all the posts here still complaining about bugs with the HR10. At least the HR20 has an excuse that's it's still relatively new and at least they are fixing the problems quickly. And how can a non-user think it's 'cooler' when they don't even use it? Guess the same way people call the HR20 a POS when they haven't used it either.


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## taker (Sep 20, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Just a couple clarifications...
> 
> DirecTV knows this. That's why the HR20 is *already* "broadband connected" with MRV, online scheduling and VOD coming soon in addition to what it already can do.


Download to my harddrive and watch not VOD  If they don't make a deal with TIVO and come out with a Tivo that supports Mpeg4 then I will take my $1300+ and a year and go to Comcast .. D* won't have the NFL ST forever and how many StarzsHD and HBOHD channels do you need before you you say I seen all these movies on the other HD channels


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

taker said:


> Download to my harddrive and watch not VOD


Huh? VOD is supposed to be streaming. At least that's what they've talked about. I guess we'll find out for sure in a few short weeks. I personally hope there is a download option. That I would find useful. Streaming...not so much.



> If they don't make a deal with TIVO and come out with a Tivo that supports Mpeg4 then I will take my $1300+ and a year and go to Comcast .. D* won't have the NFL ST forever and how many StarzsHD and HBOHD channels do you need before you you say I seen all these movies on the other HD channels


As for the comment on Starz and HBO, not sure I get it. They will be the very same HD channels that Comcast and everyone else will be adding. DirecTV isn't going to have an exclusive on these HD channels or anything.


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## taker (Sep 20, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Huh? VOD is supposed to be streaming. At least that's what they've talked about. I guess we'll find out for sure in a few short weeks. I personally hope there is a download option. That I would find useful. Streaming...not so much.
> 
> As for the comment on Starz and HBO, not sure I get it. They will be the very same HD channels that Comcast and everyone else will be adding. DirecTV isn't going to have an exclusive on these HD channels or anything.


My point was that comcast does streaming from them to you and direct tv can't do that they will download to your harddrive in your HR20 and then you buy and watch within 24hrs.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

taker said:


> My point was that comcast does streaming from them to you and direct tv can't do that they will download to your harddrive in your HR20 and then you buy and watch within 24hrs.


(1) "download to your harddrive": Yes, VOD will be downloaded to the hard drive, but it goes into space reserved for it, so it does not decrease your space available for regular recordings.

(2) Not all VOD content will need to be purchased - some of it will be free.

(3) No one knows if there will be any restrictions on VOD content, so saying you have to watch within 24 hours is just speculation.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

taker said:


> My point was that comcast does streaming from them to you and direct tv can't do that they will download to your harddrive in your HR20 and then you buy and watch within 24hrs.


Ummm, but DirecTV *will* be streaming it to your DVR hard drive. You need a broadband connection for most of the VOD with DirecTV. Might want to do some research on VOD over at DBSTalk. We should have the first CE of it very soon so we'll get the full details and if things have changes vs. what they have announced already.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

taker said:


> My point was that comcast does streaming from them to you and direct tv can't do that they will download to your harddrive in your HR20 and then you buy and watch within 24hrs.


Completely ignorant post.

Back on topic....glad they are updating the HR10. It needs it. Badly. Maybe they will fix the single tuner bug I reported and the box can be useful to me again.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

> Completely ignorant post.


You might want to rethink that  The term streaming in regards to the internet means you are watching something from a remote server - i.e. realtime. I doubt that will be happening. DirecTV will be loading this stuff to the harddrive of the HR20 - that is not streaming. On the other hand, the cable companies are showing the VOD stuff from their locations - i.e. streaming. You don't need a dvr to view their VOD.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> You might want to rethink that  The term streaming in regards to the internet means you are watching something from a remote server - i.e. realtime. I doubt that will be happening. DirecTV will be loading this stuff to the harddrive of the HR20 - that is not streaming. On the other hand, the cable companies are showing the VOD stuff from their locations - i.e. streaming. You don't need a dvr to view their VOD.


In previous VOD announcements by DirecTV, it will indeed be streaming as the cable companies do. That's all we've been saying. Now if that becomes reality or not is a different question and an answer we should know soon.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

The interesting thing about the broadband connection is it creates a dependency on a service they do not provide. IE DSL or god forbid Cable. It also presumes that its a pretty fast connection. I dont see 1.5MB connections being very usable for HD.

So if you have cable modem your on the way to triple play, why would you go DTV.
If you have DSL you might have a package with DTV but ATT will eventually want you to go U-Verse (Which implies you have a useable DSL connection for HD) and Verizon would prefer you go FIOS.

I just don't see how they can provide a national solution for VOD that is competitive.

All DTV has going for it is sports packages and a good mirroring fee, on the other hand they have those pesky contracts.

Regarding the HR10, we will just have to see.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Just FYI that I have Charter cable service. I can't even get anything slower then 3mb and they are pushing all the ones left on 3 to move to 5. I'll bet within a year the 2 speeds available will be 5 and 10.

And even though I have to pay the $10 extortion fee for not having cable video service, it's still cheaper to have DirecTV with cable modem for Internet then to get it all from Charter. And I get more channels for the price plus Sunday Ticket should I want it. Add in Vonage for all of $15 a month and I've got my own "triple play" that's cheaper then anything cable can offer me. 

Just my situation.


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## Starrbuck (Sep 29, 2003)

lancelot said:


> but for more than six months it was nothing but lock ups, missed recordings, etc.


Gross exaggeration!!!


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## Whynot (Jul 21, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Just FYI that I have Charter cable service. I can't even get anything slower then 3mb and they are pushing all the ones left on 3 to move to 5. I'll bet within a year the 2 speeds available will be 5 and 10.


The bigger question is not the technical aspect but the business side. Relying on a competitor to transport your VOD is a risk in that they can throttle back the stream. Then what do you do?
BTW I have no interest in VOD since with two small children I rarely get to watch everything I record now. Just think it will be interesting to see what happens when D* rolls out VOD.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

*DirecTV's video-on-demand service will be up and running by the end of the year. Customers will need a new DirecTV-branded DVR (no TiVos, please) and a broadband connection. Programming will not be streamed, but will be downloaded to the DVR for viewing within a specified window, which knowing how the satellite TV provider feels about controlling its content, will probably be no more than 24 hours. Plans call for 2,000 titles to be avaible at launch.*


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

DTV VOD

I forgot to post the link for the quote.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

lancelot said:


> but for more than six months it was nothing but lock ups, missed recordings, etc.





Starrbuck said:


> Gross exaggeration!!!


How would you know this ...did he post elsewhere that his 6 month experience was better than what he portends here? 

My first 6 month experience was absolutely the same as lancelots. In fact, I still get missed/unwatchable recordings.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> Just FYI that I have Charter cable service. I can't even get anything slower then 3mb and they are pushing all the ones left on 3 to move to 5. I'll bet within a year the 2 speeds available will be 5 and 10.


Slightly off topic rant. Please keep in mind that a very large part of the country and population (anyone rural) still has no decent HS Internet access. I have to resort to satellite at $80 a month for just 1.5mb. Lots of people are still on dial up due to the high cost of HS. I know it is somewhat our choice to live out here, but companies seem to think everyone has access to a HS connection and all this VOD and other wiz bang bloated stuff is great, but only if you happen to live somewhere that the speed is available. <end rant>


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

RS4 said:


> DTV VOD
> 
> I forgot to post the link for the quote.


Good article. I wonder how expensive that implementation will be and I have to believe that the rural audience who probably live by DTV will be left out in the cold.
So DTV for the first time a "You can get it and you can't Product".

I also can;t help but think that in 5-10 years most people will start getting their content straight over the broadband pipes from HBO or even the studios themselves. Why buy from the middle men!

You can watch stream ABC and Fox shows the next day now. No DTV, or cable needed. The sports leagues will probably want more of the pie and also want to cut out the middle man. Kind of sounds like what DTV just did to Tivo.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> Slightly off topic rant. Please keep in mind that a very large part of the country and population (anyone rural) still has no decent HS Internet access. I have to resort to satellite at $80 a month for just 1.5mb. Lots of people are still on dial up due to the high cost of HS. I know it is somewhat our choice to live out here, but companies seem to think everyone has access to a HS connection and all this VOD and other wiz bang bloated stuff is great, but only if you happen to live somewhere that the speed is available. <end rant>


Oh I understand. Just a couple miles down the road from me you are in the middle of corn and cows. HS Internet? Yea right. I was simply responding to the post that seemed to indicate that people with cable Internet wouldn't want to have Dish or DirecTV. Simply untrue. I know at least a dozen people just like me, cable Internet and satellite TV. Maybe it's just that Charter video sucks so bad.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Thing to keep in mind that yes, many people don't have broadband. Well, those people don't have VOD at all now. DirecTV will be offering the most popular titles via the sats and not broadband so at least it will be something they can't get now.

VOD isn't for everyone. I have no idea if I'll like it or not or ever use it. But I sure like having the choice of using it if I want. No idea how VOD is a bad thing (other then this is a Tivo board and the Tivo's can't utilize it).

If anyone wants more VOD info or discussion there are dozen page threads on DBSTalk just about VOD for you.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

Great news for me since I intend to keep my HD-tivo till it dies. I can't get all 5 sats because of trees. I will pick up 2 HR20s soon unless the hd-tivo prices on ebay plumit but will keep the tivo as the main OTA box which gets the most important recordings like lost ect.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

vikingguy said:


> unless the hd-tivo prices on ebay plumit


How much lower do you expect them to get?

Average appears to be around $150... with one right now at $15


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## jnelaine (Dec 31, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> newsposter said:
> 
> 
> > while i still have an unsubbed sony to watch, having 2 HDtivos now kinda makes me jealous.
> ...


Forgive me for the potentially stupid question, but where did it say in the press release that this update wouldn't be available for HR10-250s? I have two HR10-250s and I practically jumped out of my chair when I saw the press release because I thought the D*-TiVo relationship was DEAD, DEAD, DEAD (at least until D* switches hands to Liberty).

I've been complaining to my friends for years that D* is blocking me out of all the cool features that my DirecTiVo *could* do if only they allowed it. This is a HUGE sign that things have finally changed. I'm very excited!


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

It never said exactly which versions would or would not ge tthe update.
And the HR10-250 will probably get the update... but as I stated... I would expect it to be the LAST one of the DTiVos to get it.

There is NO software update, that can make the HR10-250 compatible with the new HD channels... and eventually ALL the SAT based HD channels (since they are going to convert them to MPEG-4).


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## jnelaine (Dec 31, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> It never said exactly which versions would or would not ge tthe update.
> And the HR10-250 will probably get the update... but as I stated... I would expect it to be the LAST one of the DTiVos to get it.
> 
> There is NO software update, that can make the HR10-250 compatible with the new HD channels... and eventually ALL the SAT based HD channels (since they are going to convert them to MPEG-4).


I know that the HR10-250s will never get the new MPEG-4 channels, but is there a timetable for dropping the current HD channels? Will I lose HD ESPN and HBO soon?


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Reading the full press release again, it sure sounds like there will be a breakthrough agreement. With everyone moving to HD in the next few years only a directvHD-Tivo 
would be relevant to a future relationship. 
Any word on Malone taking over yet?


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Cudahy said:


> Any word on Malone taking over yet?


There are some unfortunate rumblings (which I'm hoping are not true) that the incoming new owner, Malone, is starting to agree with the former owner, Murdoch, that DirecTV is a "turd bird." We may see another transaction soon and still another owner, assuming there are any takers. This would be very disappointing for those who believe that DirecTV can still be turned around.


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## lancelot (Jul 8, 2006)

Starrbuck said:


> Gross exaggeration!!!


You are so wrong. The HR20 was a POS, and even locked up yesterday. If TIVO ever comes back to make an MPEG IV DVR for Directv, the HR20 will be returned instantly.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

lancelot said:


> You are so wrong. The HR20 was a POS, and even locked up yesterday. If TIVO ever comes back to make an MPEG IV DVR for Directv, the HR20 will be returned instantly.


I have both...if I have to pick, I still prefer the HR10-250 to the HR20...however, both have had their problems (and still do)...the HR10 still locks up on people, reboots, bad HDMI cards...etc.

and at least, the HR20 is being worked on by D*, so you can hope for quick improvements...

I would rather have Tivo, but the HR20 has had far fewer problems than the HR10 when it first came out...


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

jnelaine said:


> I know that the HR10-250s will never get the new MPEG-4 channels, but is there a timetable for dropping the current HD channels? Will I lose HD ESPN and HBO soon?


Eventually ... yes, you will lost HD ESPN and HBO and HD-Net, etc.

Soon? That's the question. The new satellite should begin streaming the new HD MPEG4-only HD channels in September, and the 2nd new satellite is scheduled to launch in September. Some people speculate that MPEG2 HD will end by the end of this year, others say early next year, still others say the end of next year.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

drew2k said:


> yes, you will lost HD ESPN and HBO and HD-Net, etc.
> 
> Soon? That's the question


That's fair.

But not really getting into the spirit of this cartoon confrontation!


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## HofstraJet (Jul 19, 2001)

'Ol Swanni says D* has confirmed the HR10-250 will get the upgrade, but does not provide a source: http://www.tvpredictions.com/dtivo080307.htm


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

The HR10-250 will get the update... but as stated else where:
It will probably be the last of the units, based on the volume of units out there.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Redux said:


> There are some unfortunate rumblings (which I'm hoping are not true) that the incoming new owner, Malone, is starting to agree with the former owner, Murdoch, that DirecTV is a "turd bird." We may see another transaction soon and still another owner, assuming there are any takers. This would be very disappointing for those who believe that DirecTV can still be turned around.


Wait.... is that a bubble bursting that I hear...

Welcome to the reality of the situation that Malone doing the stock swap with Murdoch, is nothing more then a buisness transaction... and Murdoch isn't going to completely change the direction of DirecTV Group

(Hence why it's leadership/executive team has already been stated it will not change)


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

RS4 said:


> You might want to rethink that  The term streaming in regards to the internet means you are watching something from a remote server - i.e. realtime. I doubt that will be happening. DirecTV will be loading this stuff to the harddrive of the HR20 - that is not streaming. On the other hand, the cable companies are showing the VOD stuff from their locations - i.e. streaming. You don't need a dvr to view their VOD.


You may want to rethink as well. Streaming also means downloading locally to a cache or to a hard drive. You ever use Windows Media Player or Real Player? If you pause, the video continues to download and you can move around freely in what is already downloaded.


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## technojunkie (Mar 15, 2000)

So what is the reason a TiVo UI couldn't be installed in the HR20?


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## puffdaddy (Mar 1, 2006)

So this "update" will likely be a fork from the 7.2.2 SA line (as that's when the "recently deleted" folder was added), or perhaps a backport of that feature to 7.2.1 (which is where 6.3x is forked from). 7.2.1 already includes overlap protection and online scheduling.

Either or those two options would probably spell the end of MRV for the SD units (so I would image that most folks would want to stick with 6.2x). It's already possible to run 6.3x on an SD unit, but this would just effectively formalize it.

A shame the way things shook out, but I suppose that's the price to be paid for taking hacks mainstream. Rest assured that folks need not worry about that happening again (a la the S3).


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

technojunkie said:


> So what is the reason a TiVo UI couldn't be installed in the HR20?


Because DirecTV already has its own UI for the HR20. And because Tivo has no incentive to undertake a project like this on its own.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

> TonyD79 - You may want to rethink as well. Streaming also means downloading locally to a cache or to a hard drive. You ever use Windows Media Player or Real Player? If you pause, the video continues to download and you can move around freely in what is already downloaded.


Streaming may download to your harddrive while you are watching, but as soon as you end the session, you've lost the recording. That means it would need to be downloaded again if you wanted to view it an hour from now.

It appears to me that DirecTV is in fact taking up 60 gig of the harddrive to put video on it, because they will not be able to show video in streaming mode from a server. They instead will load it onto your harddrive so you can view it locally.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Well in just about every incarnation of "streaming", that I can think of... Computer, Consumer Electronic Device... everything... that doesn't have it stored locally... stores it localy.

The media does have to cache locally, if you want to have any type of "trickplay" actions with it (aka FF).

Even the CABLE-CO versions, you have to have a DVR to be able to do that with their VOD (if they have that feature available).


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

technojunkie said:


> So what is the reason a TiVo UI couldn't be installed in the HR20?


Probably no technical reason why Tivo could not write a version for the HR20 hardware, but the real question is why would DirecTV want to do that? The only people who really care about a Tivo interface are current Tivo users (and only some of those). It would make no sense for DirecTV to either abandon their interface or switch at this point, just to appease a few (in the big picture) Tivo zealots.


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## technojunkie (Mar 15, 2000)

Zealots? What are we alkeida? No I think loyalists like myself are hardly zealots.

SInce there is apparently no technical reason that it couldn't be done then one has to assume it is/has being discussed by DirecTv and Tivo. So why do it? Apparently they want to keep us TiVo lovers happy or they wouldn't be annoucing more improvements for the existing platform. The other reaon is the UI on the HR20 has enough issues that folks like me won't switch to it. Another reason is that D has always wanted to be able to offer the best in services. By making a TiVo interface available they may be able to provide a more reliable product. And perhaps they already know that the amount of money it would take to improve the HR20 UI is more than it would cost then to let TiVo do it and then have them on board to service it.

Yeah maybe they could charge a premium for it. The concept isn't much different than selecting a piece of software for your computer. For those of us who like the TiVo UI it could be a reasonable alternative and one that would be quickly implemented once it was developed.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Well in just about every incarnation of "streaming", that I can think of... Computer, Consumer Electronic Device... everything... that doesn't have it stored locally... stores it localy.
> 
> The media does have to cache locally, if you want to have any type of "trickplay" actions with it (aka FF).
> 
> Even the CABLE-CO versions, you have to have a DVR to be able to do that with their VOD (if they have that feature available).


Again, streaming means the video is coming from another server and being played in realtime or near-realtime. Yes, the local device may be caching the data, but if you stop viewing and re-start an hour later or close your IE session, the video will be downloaded again. This is how YouTube and those kind of services work. I can't imagine that DirecTV is going to be using servers to broadcast (i.e. stream) to it's viewers. According to that article, they are going to load (or push) the video to your HR20 so that you can view it. But you are viewing it locally - i.e. you could be disconnected from the internet and still view the video - and that my friend is not streaming.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

I have 4 active DirecTiVos but no first hand experience with non-TiVo boxes.

But my understanding is that a *big* reason for the HD20 interface being what it is (at least superficially) is that it resembles the interface on DirecTV's non-DVR receivers.

OTOH, I rarely watch live TV, so I can't understand who would possibly want a non-DVR receiver. I've had DirecTV for over 5 years and have never used anything but a TiVo-style box with it.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

technojunkie said:


> one has to assume it is/has being discussed by DirecTv and Tivo.


Why would we have to assume that? 
It is EXTREMLEY possible the topic has never been discussed... and it is EXTREMELY possible that the topic will never be discussed.

TiVo has just gone through a "stuff our software into someone elses box", that has taken over a YEAR longer then it was expected... and it is not even done yet..

So know what it takes to put it onto a hardware platform not designed for it...
And what benefit is it to DirecTV to throw out their software (that is running pretty darn good, regardless what you may "think" about it).



technojunkie said:


> So why do it? Apparently they want to keep us TiVo lovers happy or they wouldn't be annoucing more improvements for the existing platform. The other reaon is the UI on the HR20 has enough issues that folks like me won't switch to it.


Like what? What specifically about the UI has issues? What specifically have you had problems with on the UI... seriously.... what issues have you had working with the UI?



technojunkie said:


> Another reason is that D has always wanted to be able to offer the best in services. By making a TiVo interface available they may be able to provide a more reliable product. And perhaps they already know that the amount of money it would take to improve the HR20 UI is more than it would cost then to let TiVo do it and then have them on board to service it.


There are several negatives to offering more then one platform...
-) Increased support costs
-) Incosistancies between feature sets... and having to deal with customers wanting one over the other (what if VOD, Interactive, doesn't make it to the TiVo platform version?)



technojunkie said:


> Yeah maybe they could charge a premium for it. The concept isn't much different than selecting a piece of software for your computer. For those of us who like the TiVo UI it could be a reasonable alternative and one that would be quickly implemented once it was developed.


I keep seeing people recommend that... but how many people out there would really pay more to have TiVo software? 100? 1000? 10000? 100000?

Would there really be enough to offset the cost difference of how much it would take to design and build, and support, and distributed, ect... a 2nd DVR platform?

Supporting TWO DVR platforms (one with a higher cost) didn't work out the first time they tried it... what makes you think it would work this time? (Note: the one that cost more... UTV... was discontinued)


----------



## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> ... but the real question is why would DirecTV want to do that? The only people who really care about a Tivo interface are current Tivo users (and only some of those). It would make no sense for DirecTV to either abandon their interface or switch at this point, just to appease a few (in the big picture) Tivo zealots.


DirecTV's ratings went down more than any of it's competitors - by a long shot. Why do you think that is? It's because people were unhappy with the products and services that DirecTV was offering. What were those products - the HR20 and the NDS box. What were the change in services - 2 year commitment. You guys are burying your head in the sand if you think there is a big acceptance by customers of what DirecTV is doing in services and products.

Yes, the company is growing because as others have pointed out, the content is king and it would appear for the moment that DirecTV will soon offer more HD than most of the cable companies. (I'm not sure about Verizion.) So, that is bringing the customers in, but I think they have two years to get there act together and develop and/or find some good products, or else there will be a huge number leaving.

Why on earth would you want to alienate a customer set that is probably 20% of your customer base when the current products you are offering are not perceived by the majority of the users as being better than what your customers are currently using? There are (or were) over 3 million DTivos and a huge number of those clients that are switching are hanging on to DTivos or wanting a DTivo replacement.

Remember how many people brought new customers to DirecTV because of Tivos. The reverse will happen if DirecTV blows us off.

So, DirecTV needs to offer DTivos or let Tivo build mpeg 4 products if they want to regain the customer satisfaction levels they used to enjoy. It would be different if they had outstanding products as the alternative, but the perception is they don't - again just check out the J.D. Powers ratings and look at some of the other surveys. DirecTV is losing its edge in what people think about it. It's just becoming like the cable companies - something where you can get the service, but you don't really recommend it to friends.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> DirecTV's ratings went down more than any of it's competitors - by a long shot. Why do you think that is? It's because people were unhappy with the products and services that DirecTV was offering. What were those products - the HR20 and the NDS box. What were the change in services - 2 year commitment. You guys are burying your head in the sand if you think there is a big acceptance by customers of what DirecTV is doing in services and products.


Can you provide links to these "ratings drops" in comparison to all the other vendors...

Specifically intrested in what questions where asked...

As there are a LOT of factorts that can go into reasons why their raitings have dropped:

-) Delays in getting the HD channels out (and other vendors having more)
-) Price increase, (even though small), with nothing additional really for it
-) Price difference with comparison to Tripple Play
-) DirecTV cracking down on giving away "freebies" everytime someone calls
-) Denying service to customers with high risk factors
-) Requiring upfront deposits (two months worth of payments) for customers with higher risk factors
-) The sheer notion that HD customers are going to have to change their equipment
-) Their customer service teir had been dropping in quality (Regardless of the product), which they have been focusing on in 2007
-) Changing of installer companies, which has a direct reflection with their customer base.
-) They made customers keep premium channels for at least 1 full month, or applied a $10 cancel feel

The 2 YEAR commitment has been around now for almost 2 years.. It started before the first DVR+ series was around... and applied to DTiVo's as well at the start...

But yet... you keep closing a blind eye to every other factor that can go into disatisfaction of a customer... and focusing on this one (of many) aspects that could go into it.

But let me guess...
All would be better... if they bring a new DTiVo ... and drop the commitments...
Or do they just need to drop the commitments?
Or do they just need to bring a new DTiVo

And Satisfaction numbers will go through the roof?


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## SledgeHammer! (Mar 7, 2006)

For me, right now, I have ZERO use for the HR20. I like my HR10-250 and have had zero problems with it. There aren't any MPEG4 channels (I live in CA, so my local HDs are MPEG2), so why deal with the broken HR20? Yes, MPEG4 channels are coming "someday". At that point, I wont have a choice I guess. I'm kind of hoping there will be an MPEG4 HD-DTivo, but I'm not holding my breath. Still the biggest deal breaker for me has been the lack of dual live buffers on the HR20 (same complaint everyone else has). I use that feature like there is no tommorow. The "record both channels workaround" is just ludicrous. Lots of people left DTV 2 or 3 yrs ago for E* and FTA when they locked down the signal. Quite honestly, I'd rather have dual live buffers before some bulls**t gaming features . But I hear DLB are not even being considered .


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Well in just about every incarnation of "streaming", that I can think of... Computer, Consumer Electronic Device... everything... that doesn't have it stored locally... stores it localy.
> 
> The media does have to cache locally, if you want to have any type of "trickplay" actions with it (aka FF).
> 
> Even the CABLE-CO versions, you have to have a DVR to be able to do that with their VOD (if they have that feature available).


I know zip about comcast cable as evidenced by this question: last night a relative ordered PPV and was able to FF thru the opening credits but they do not have a dvr. So where was this stored? do non dvrs have hard drives?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

newsposter said:


> I know zip about comcast cable as evidenced by this question: last night a relative ordered PPV and was able to FF thru the opening credits but they do not have a dvr. So where was this stored? do non dvrs have hard drives?


Which box did they have?
From what I gather from COMCASTs website... you need specific models of their equipment.... so there maybe something in there... (including the ability to DVR if you enable the service).

Or maybe COMCAST does have enough bandwith, to allow a remote server host all the OnDemand, and manipulate it with Trickplay...

But that may be market dependent, as my mom's digital box can't do OnDemand... and a family friend, can't trickplay his.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Can you provide links to these "ratings drops" in comparison to all the other vendors...
> 
> Specifically intrested in what questions where asked...
> 
> ...


SkyRport satisfaction story

ACSI survey

The ACSI survey was out in May. What was significant at that time in DirecTV land - oh yeah - people had just gone through the HR20 mess. There was a JD Power survey out the previous August also showing DirecTV had fallen more than the others.

Yeah, I'd say DirecTV has been fairly consistent these past couple of years. They've managed to piss off a lot of people in all kinds of areas.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> But let me guess...
> All would be better... if they bring a new DTiVo ... and drop the commitments...
> Or do they just need to drop the commitments?
> Or do they just need to bring a new DTiVo
> ...


Of course things would be better for DirecTV if they brought out a new DTivo. You make fun of it, but that's exactly how they can improve customer satisfaction.

One of the biggest complaints we had as Tivo users was that DirecTV wouldn't let us have all the features of the stand alone, but overall we were happy with Tivo and happy with DirecTV. Just look at the ACSI numbers.

Tivo has a name and a reputation that a lot of people think is good. It's known for ease of use and quality. There are several million of us who for the most part have enjoyed our Tivo experience with DirecTV. We don't see those equal good feelings with the HR20 and the way DirecTV is heading these days. Again, just look at the numbers. I'm not the only one who feels that way.

So, of course DirecTV would make a whole lot of people feel like they cared if they continued to offer Tivo equipment or at least allowed Tivo to offer equipment.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> One of the biggest complaints we had as Tivo users was that DirecTV wouldn't let us have all the features of the stand alone, but overall we were happy with Tivo and happy with DirecTV. Just look at the ACSI numbers.


What makes you think all the SA features would be in any new unit?
Even TiVo's latest systems T3 and TiVoHD... don't have all the same features...

The COMCAST version is also expected to, "not have all same features"



RS4 said:


> Tivo has a name and a reputation that a lot of people think is good. It's known for ease of use and quality. There are several million of us who for the most part have enjoyed our Tivo experience with DirecTV. We don't see those equal good feelings with the HR20 and the way DirecTV is heading these days. Again, just look at the numbers. I'm not the only one who feels that way.


I understand that you are not alone...

As for the TiVo name... well guess what:
http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9753047-1.html

There is more proof, that the "TiVo" name is being used to refer to as generic DVR capabilities... or did Sony and TiVo cut a deal to actually bring TiVo software to the PS3?



RS4 said:


> So, of course DirecTV would make a whole lot of people feel like they cared if they continued to offer Tivo equipment or at least allowed Tivo to offer equipment.


They woudl also make a lot of people happen by not turning of MPEG-2 HD, or adding the new ones in MPEG-4... but they are going to upset some people... and even cause some people to leave...

But in the same "motion".. they are going to add... many more then they lose.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> SkyRport satisfaction story
> 
> ACSI survey
> 
> ...


Ahh... so going down... and still being tied, for the highest rating (based on the ASCI Survey)... when pretty much the entire industry dropped in satisfaction....

So while they did drop... they are still higher then anyone that offers an integrated TiVo receiver...

Oh... wait... sorry... Can you expalin the increase from 05 to 06... as that was during the R15 period... which most people would argue... was even worse then anything about the HR20.. .since it was the first "non-tivo"

Could it possible be... wait... the new LEASE program that started? a few months earlier? Nah... had to be the HR20


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Which box did they have?
> From what I gather from COMCASTs website... you need specific models of their equipment.... so there maybe something in there... (including the ability to DVR if you enable the service).
> 
> Or maybe COMCAST does have enough bandwith, to allow a remote server host all the OnDemand, and manipulate it with Trickplay...
> ...


unknown what box but they live waay out in the boonies so unsure of how much bandwidth is there. Ill have to take a peek next time i'm out.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Ahh... so going down... and still being tied, for the highest rating (based on the ASCI Survey)... when pretty much the entire industry dropped in satisfaction....
> 
> So while they did drop... they are still higher then anyone that offers an integrated TiVo receiver...
> 
> ...


You can keep making all kinds of excuses, but the fact remains, the biggest thing going on at DirecTV at that time was the HR20. Just think how much higher they'd be today if they'd kept out of the hardware business.

There are clearly other polls showing the same indications, but it's ok, keep making excuses for DirecTV. Your own forum shows that there are still considerable problems. There was never the kind of discourse here as there is on that forum. It seems, one can hardly mention any kind of negative feeling without getting his head chopped off. The Engadget poll shows that not even half the people taking the survey think the HR20 is ready for prime time.

You guys like to paint a rosy picture of everything when the facts seem to point to just the opposite. You can't seem to recognize that a lot of Tivo users like the interface. Heck, some of the posters even make fun of the Tivo interface saying it's childish, but most of us feel it is intuitive and easy to use.

A lot of Tivo users have lost confidence in DirecTV, especially when we read about what they've got for replacements. We don't feel comfortable signing up for another 2 years with what they are currently offering. I know that's hard for you zealots to understand, but we'll hold out for a while longer before making up our minds. And if enough of us hold out, maybe DirecTV will re-think what they are doing.

You guys over there all pat yourself on the back and say how far DirecTV has progressed in the last year, when I think most of the rest of us would say that DirecTV is lucky they didn't get hauled into court for fraud. It appears to me that it might now work most of the time for most of the people (I saw one estimate at 80%), but I don't want to be the 1 in 5 it doesn't work for. And I want an interface that I feel comfortable with and that works instead of half functions like searches and channels I receive that still don't work.

What I'd like to know is why you guys just don't leave us alone? We'll send the folks over to your forum when it's appropriate. This is a Tivo forum and a lot of us want a Tivo solution.


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## Whynot (Jul 21, 2007)

ebonovic said:


> Why would we have to assume that?
> It is EXTREMLEY possible the topic has never been discussed... and it is EXTREMELY possible that the topic will never be discussed./QUOTE]
> 
> CHIll Chill Boy. Speculation is just that and nobody knows what happens behind closed doors. Well unless you work for D*
> ...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Actually .... no... I post more at DBSTalk, then here...


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

In all the time that I was a D* customer.... I was never given an satisfaction survey.

In fact now that I am no longer a customer I doubt that I will ever be given the chance to give my opinion.

My many reasons for leaving D*:

1) $70 a month is too much to pay when you really only watch 5 channels beyond locals.

2) D*'s relationship with Tivo and the sub par support that D* would allow Tivo to provide for the investment that I made. Having to hack my box to get features that D* should have allowed well before then.

3) D*'s total lack of respect for their customers. Giving customers 2 year commitments for no reason and without informing them.

4) The amount of wait time that you have to spend on the phone with D*'s support.

5) The amount of time you have to stay on hold while the idiot at D* tries to look up the problem in their manual. Or quite possibly they just put you on hold hoping that you will go away and not ask them such a difficult question.

Yep, #1 my a**... maybe they should talk to former customers as well.



ebonovic said:


> Ahh... so going down... and still being tied, for the highest rating (based on the ASCI Survey)... when pretty much the entire industry dropped in satisfaction....
> 
> So while they did drop... they are still higher then anyone that offers an integrated TiVo receiver...
> 
> ...


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Which box did they have?
> From what I gather from COMCASTs website... you need specific models of their equipment.... so there maybe something in there... (including the ability to DVR if you enable the service).
> 
> Or maybe COMCAST does have enough bandwith, to allow a remote server host all the OnDemand, and manipulate it with Trickplay...
> ...


That was OnDemand. Most of our PPV channels (depending on the market of course) have moved to OnDemand for movies and such. You are most certainly able to trickplay it and come back to it within 24 hours.


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## mbamenra (Nov 17, 2006)

I own two of God's machines, i.e. the HR10-250, but was preparing to take the plunge and scrap them for the much-maligned HR20. However, my wife overruled me at the last minute when she found out about the lack of dual live buffers.

So this past Friday, August 3rd, I called DTV to cancel my Saturday install. The CSR was very knowledgeable about the HR20 and really tried to sell me on all the features and the new content coming in Sept. She finally persuaded me to "postpone" my appointment for one month to think about it. 

What was interesting though is that when I told her how much I loved the Tivo and how I disdained the HR20, she says (I am paraphrasing) "Not that I'm trying to change your mind about getting the HR20 but DTV and Tivo are still in negotiations and it's possible that there is a new DTivo box to come. But maybe you can get the new HR20 now and if at some point during your commitment an MPEG4 DTivo box is added, if you're having problems with the HR20 it may be possible to switch over to the DTivo box."

Not that a CSR's comment is anything to hang one's hat on, but it was interesting that she (1) didn't pull that line that the HR10s would be no longer able to receive HD content after Sept, which I'd heard from 2 CSRs in the past, and (2) she was providing information to encourage not switching to the HR20 at this time. 

Perhaps she was trying to play some psychology by suggesting the possibility of a future MPEG4 Tivo that would keep me from dumping DTV altogether and instead enter a 2-yr commitment on the HR20 in the hope of getting a product which will never be offered. I generally don't give CSRs that much credit, but I'm playing devil's advocate here. 

I dunno, I'm gonna wait until after football season and see if anything develops.


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## lancelot (Jul 8, 2006)

Look, anyone who needs to know what the problem is with the HR20, and why so many are clammoring for the return of TIVO, simply need read all of these posts on this board and over at dbstalk. There's no question in my mind that bringing back TIVO to Directv would be a huge step towards overall customer satisfaction. I left Dish Network after 9 years because of its buggy equipment and a desire for something more reliable. The HD-TIVO HR10-250 and the SD Directivos caught my attention. That's what I started with at Directv, and was very happy I left Dish. When Directv did its el-cheapo changeover to its "uniform" boxes, the R15 and HR20, I had nothing but trouble and I was remained why I left Dish Network. I was appalled by Directv at the lack of quality and the second rate equipment it was putting out. 

So, I say to those who question why so much dissatisfaction exists today, open your eyes. Its so obvious: Equipment that, more than a year after its release, is still riddled with bugs (I've had another lock up on my HR20 this week alone, and my R15 was returned for the same reason and I bought an TIVO R10 to replace it).


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## Cubfan (Aug 19, 2000)

Ummm... It's only been a couple of weeks since I dumped my HR10-250 for the new HR20, but my memory of the HD-DTivo wasn't nearly as positive as some of you. It was far from stellar... I had bugs (reboots), several "upgrade" software glitches that caused devastating missed recordings of my favorite shows, and then there was the pitifully slow guide and menus. 

This HR20 may not go "bloop" and have the guy with the waving antenna, but it's fast and solid. Guess I'm not as hypnotized as so many of you. Don't miss the thing at all, guys. Sorry.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

technojunkie said:


> Zealots? What are we alkeida? No I think loyalists like myself are hardly zealots.
> 
> SInce there is apparently no technical reason that it couldn't be done then one has to assume it is/has being discussed by DirecTv and Tivo. So why do it? Apparently they want to keep us TiVo lovers happy or they wouldn't be annoucing more improvements for the existing platform.


*Tivo* wants to keep the 4 million SD DirecTivo customers happy so they don't switch to a DTV box. DTV is probably ok with the improvements but doesn't worry about it much either way. As for the probable 150k HR10-250 customers...DTV couldn't care less what noise they make.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

double wah


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

The thing that's interesting to me about the announcement is that I don't recall DirecTV making a similar announcement when they upgraded the HR10-250. The wording of the statements offers all kinds of possibilities. Additionally, it would seem to be more than just a maintenance upgrade as they are talking about new features.


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## vaporware (Mar 5, 2002)

Sure the HR-20 is superior. That's why as of now 15 of 30 threads on the first page of dbsforums Hr-20 forum happen to be about problems with the HR-20. Not counting the few in the sticky thread column.

Shill all you want, and by you, I'm pointing at you know who, about how great the HR-20 is, but the facts speak for themselves. And no matter how hard the sell you won't convince me the Pinto is as good, or better than the Mustang.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

but it blows up faster


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## jeffwg1 (Oct 19, 2003)

Would the *Telecommunications Act of 1996*, that the FCC has just started to enforce, allow Tivo to make an HD mpeg4 box without D*s consent?

I have no idea if it would be cost effective or even appealing for Tivo make a D* box on their own.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

vaporware said:


> Sure the HR-20 is superior. That's why as of now 15 of 30 threads on the first page of dbsforums Hr-20 forum happen to be about problems with the HR-20. Not counting the few in the sticky thread column.
> 
> Shill all you want, and by you, I'm pointing at you know who, about how great the HR-20 is, but the facts speak for themselves. And no matter how hard the sell you won't convince me the Pinto is as good, or better than the Mustang.


I just can't not post this. 

Ok, so lets compare.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=360453
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=361460
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=351066
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=360779
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=349145
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=360996

Hmmm, should I go on? Posts on the first page (well, first half page) of this very HR10 forum. Man, nothing but problems with that HR10 aren't there. 
You know I was thinking about getting a Tivo but holy cow are there problems!  
This thing is Pinto. 
Facts speak for themselves indeed.

Don't be a hypocrite like a lot of others.


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## 94SupraTT (Feb 17, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I have both...if I have to pick, I still prefer the HR10-250 to the HR20...however, both have had their problems (and still do)...the HR10 still locks up on people, reboots, bad HDMI cards...etc.
> 
> and at least, the HR20 is being worked on by D*, so you can hope for quick improvements...
> 
> I would rather have Tivo, but the HR20 has had far fewer problems than the HR10 when it first came out...


Very true. My HR10 locks up once a week on average and I'm on 3.15.


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## Cubfan (Aug 19, 2000)

Such a wonderful track record with audio dropouts, random lockups and reboots, missed season passes that had to all be reset. Oh, yes... that HR10 has had a wonderful year. Don't know where the love-affair comes from or what koolaid you guys are drinking. 

So far, I'm pretty happy with the HR20 and not looking back. And what's this? Surely it's not a screen saver? Or menus that pop up instantly. Nah, can't be that... it's technically impossible.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

RS4 said:


> Of course things would be better for DirecTV if they brought out a new DTivo.


And this absurd statement is based on what facts? Oh that's right - there are none. 



RS4 said:


> What I'd like to know is why you guys just don't leave us alone?


Maybe for the same reason some of you folks keep spewing your BS.


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## lancelot (Jul 8, 2006)

Its RS4's opinion, shared by many of us! An opinion is just that, and shouldn't be dismissed.


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## mbamenra (Nov 17, 2006)

> Its RS4's opinion, shared by many of us! An opinion is just that, and shouldn't be dismissed.


Hey, I love Tivo like nobody's business, don't want or like the HR20, and would love nothing more than an MPEG4 DTivo, but folks are right, some of the comments coming from the Tivo faithful sound just plain dumb.

I do BELIEVE that the HR20 crowd is wrong, that an M4 DTivo would be a much more robust product, etc. But I'm not going to make up facts, or make unsubstantiable factual assertions, or go into limp-wristed whining about the HR20 crowd leaving us alone.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Yep, that is now the only way I would ever consider going back to Directv.* I want a real Tivo that can use cable cards and that will work with Directv*. In that way if Directv pissed me off again (I'd keep them on a very short leash) then I can just take my Tivo with me to cable or Dish or whatever.



jeffwg1 said:


> Would the *Telecommunications Act of 1996*, that the FCC has just started to enforce, allow Tivo to make an HD mpeg4 box without D*s consent?
> 
> I have no idea if it would be cost effective or even appealing for Tivo make a D* box on their own.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

lancelot said:


> Its RS4's opinion, shared by many of us! An opinion is just that, and shouldn't be dismissed.


Ahh... but that's the problem. He and others state things as if they are fact, and not opinions.

And 'many' is not all, nor even a significant percentage of DirecTV customers. As I mentioned earlier, it would make no economical sense for DirecTV to roll out a MPEG4 Tivo just to make a few thousand (or even 100K) Tivo zealots happy. They have more than enough new subs, existing Tivo customers that don't have blinders on, and customers that don't even have a DVR yet that will be just fine with the HR20.

The thing that irritates me the most (and I've had a Tivo since day one) is that some people think that their way of thinking (that Tivo is the best and only DVR worth having) is the only way to think. And then they just make things up to try and justify their POV. I asked earlier in the thread for anyone to give a logical and/or economical reason why DirecTV would introduce a MPEG4 Tivo and the only reason anyone has given is some version of 'it would make current Tivo users happy'.


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## mbamenra (Nov 17, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *Mark Lopez*
> The thing that irritates me the most (and I've had a Tivo since day one) is that some people think that their way of thinking (that Tivo is the best and only DVR worth having) is the only way to think. And then they just make things up to try and justify their POV. I asked earlier in the thread for anyone to give a logical and/or economical reason why DirecTV would introduce a MPEG4 Tivo and the only reason anyone has given is some version of 'it would make current Tivo users happy'.


I must say that you somewhat sound like your way is the only way to think as well. But to your point, responsible corporations will only do something if there is a discrete financial return in doing so.

I haven't been following the Tivo vs. The World legal wranglings, but perhaps one possible reason for introducing a MPEG4 Tivo is if it is cheaper to do so than face the risk of a sizeable legal judgment/settlement. Along those same lines, if there are certain proprietary features whose patents manufacturers cannot easily design around, then they are often forced to license the technology/hardware.

So if legal probabilistic calculations are not the chief reason for DTV to capitulate...then unless the estimate posted by many here--that there are only a handful of Tivo die-hard customers to satisfy--is plain wrong, then I don't see why else DTV would offer an MPEG4 DTivo. But still I will wait and hope.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I think D* should offer choice. Either by having a Directv sanctioned Tivo or by Tivo being able to create a Tivo that will work with their satellite systems. The FCC should force D* and E* to comply.

I'm not going to argue about which is better cause I do not care. I care about choice.... which is something that D*, in my opinion, is trying to take away from their customers (even if it's only a handful).



Mark Lopez said:


> Ahh... but that's the problem. He and others state things as if they are fact, and not opinions.
> 
> And 'many' is not all, nor even a significant percentage of DirecTV customers. As I mentioned earlier, it would make no economical sense for DirecTV to roll out a MPEG4 Tivo just to make a few thousand (or even 100K) Tivo zealots happy. They have more than enough new subs, existing Tivo customers that don't have blinders on, and customers that don't even have a DVR yet that will be just fine with the HR20.
> 
> The thing that irritates me the most (and I've had a Tivo since day one) is that some people think that their way of thinking (that Tivo is the best and only DVR worth having) is the only way to think. And then they just make things up to try and justify their POV. I asked earlier in the thread for anyone to give a logical and/or economical reason why DirecTV would introduce a MPEG4 Tivo and the only reason anyone has given is some version of 'it would make current Tivo users happy'.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

mbamenra said:


> I must say that you somewhat sound like your way is the only way to think as well. .


Not at all. Early on I said I would be glad to hear any reasonable explanation why it would be in DirecTV's best interest to offer a MPEG4 Tivo or try to switch the software at this point. And no one has given any credible reason (IMO) other than the 'Tivo is better' line that is getting old.

I have had Tivos since day one. Yes, I like them, but I'm not so set in my ways that I won't at least look at something else, especially when it can do at least or perhaps more of the things I want.

Fact - The HR10 still has problems for some people
Fact - The HR20 still has problems for some people
Fact - Some people prefer Tivo
Fact - Some people prefer the HR20
Fact - Some people don't care either way
Fact - Most DirecTV customers don't even have a DVR yet
Fact - The only MPEG4 unit available is not a Tivo

Now, from a business standpoint, what do you do?

a) Spend a bunch of money to develop a different platform when you already have one that works 99% of the way most users would use it just to appease some loyal Tivo users?

b) Continue on your present course with your in-house unit that already has R&D money spent and mostly works?

Any company with any common sense would of course pick B

But I'll still be glad to listen to any reasonable arguments. And 'Tivo is the best' is not a reasonable argument.


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## Cubfan (Aug 19, 2000)

And some of us who have had Tivos from day-one are perfectly satisfied with the HR20. That makes it even harder, I would suppose.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> Not at all. Early on I said I would be glad to hear any reasonable explanation why it would be in DirecTV's best interest to offer a MPEG4 Tivo or try to switch the software at this point. And no one has given any credible reason (IMO) other than the 'Tivo is better' line that is getting old.
> 
> I have had Tivos since day one. Yes, I like them, but I'm not so set in my ways that I won't at least look at something else, especially when it can do at least or perhaps more of the things I want.
> 
> ...


Boy for someone who is complaining about numbers being spouted off you're doing a pretty good job yourself.

Let's look at your 99% number in a) as example. There's a poll over at Engadget showing that less than 50% of the responders think the HR20 is ready for prime time. That's a long way to go to 99%.

The DirecTV ratings approval numbers dropped faster than their competitors - at the time the two biggest things going on in DirecTV were the 2-year commitment and the HR20 mess.

Let's consider some other numbers. There are still 2.6 million DTivo customers. If even 10% left DirecTV, that's a loss of income of $200 to 250 million in one year alone, plus the slower rate of growth because these folks will no longer recommend DirecTV to there friends as many of us do now. Don't give me some hogwash that says DirecTV and/or Tivo is going to spend anywhere near that kind of money to develop a Tivo follow-on product, especially when Tivo currently has 3 HD products under their belt, and all of the experience of working with DirecTV.

Let's consider some other facts - Tivo has a brand name recognition that is now getting stronger as their products become visible with DirecTV's competitors. The value to that name will only increase in the next few months as their name is seen by more people. Someone considering DirecTV will wonder why they forced Tivo out when these other companies are picking it up.

Why on earth would DirecTV push their existing customers out of the fold? They already have an existing support structure in place for Tivo. They're going to lose a bunch of customers that are their big spenders. Oh, by the way - these are usually the most loyal customers and don't go off to competitors unless they are unhappy with DirecTV. I think that's why more haven't left - they're waiting as long as possible for an alternative and many of them (me included) want that to be a Tivo alternative.

Everyone knows that DirecTV got rid of the Tivos to make pricate brand products as a lot of cable companies did, but DirecTV is enjoying a terrible reputation with their in-house dvr's (as many of the cable companies are) so there is an extremely high motivation for them to be working with Tivo on an mpeg4 replacement product. That will help them recover their reputation.

You're not participating in this forum because you like Tivo, that is perfectly clear. But most of that are here do. We like the Tivo interface - much better than anything else we've seen including your precious HR20. Brand loyalty is hard for you to understand. I see the next few months as an ideal time for DirecTV and Tivo to form a new relationship that they and their customers can take advantage of.

Of course the most viable option that you never mentioned is c) to offer both products. A lot of people came to DirecTV because of Tivo and a lot of people will be perfectly happy to stay with DirecTV if they offer a Tivo mpeg4 product. I think they'll even put up with the stupid 2-year contract. But at the same time, the next few months may offer big changes for those of us who are waiting to see what happens and you can bet DirecTV doesn't want to lose us, no matter what you say.

There is nothing wrong with DirecTV leading with their in-house dvr, but also offer the Tivo as an alternative.

"Tivo is the best" is a concept, a name - more people recognize the Tivo brand then your HR20. And because of that - if they don't know anything else about the boxes, they'll choose the Tivo. Then look at the other forum plus this one. You see time and time again people saying - 'well the HR20 is okay, but it's no Tivo'.

Whether you admit it or not, the numbers are in favor of Tivo, and that alone is why DirecTV will make arrangements with Tivo for a follow-on mpeg 4 product.


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## mrpurple (Sep 10, 2002)

Rojma said:


> Finally just made the jump from my Tivo HR10-250 to an HR20. Unfortunately content, and not Tivo, is king (i.e., upcoming HD channels in September). Although the HR20 is not bad, it certainly is no Tivo, and would instantly switch out any receivers for Tivos if Tivos were made available that supported the newer MPEG4 format. One can only hope...


Me too!


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## ahartman (Dec 28, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> I have had Tivos since day one. Yes, I like them, but I'm not so set in my ways that I won't at least look at something else, especially when it can do at least or perhaps more of the things I want.


I guess this is the only beef I have with your argument - there's really no viable way to try it, except to commit to the 2 years. I have 4 DTiVos - 1 of which is an HD-DTiVo.

I came to DTV *because of TiVo*. Once my HD Tivo dies (or MPEG-2 content ceases to exist), I'll seriously consider other alternatives - with cable companies coming out with TiVo boxes, it'll be a hard sell to stay with DTV. Sure, DTV is promising hundreds of HD channels, but a great deal of the HD content now is crap. I'm as guilty as anyone for watching crappy HD shows simply because they're in HD, but being able to fully utilize the TiVo features (season passes, wishlist, dual live buffers) are WAY more important to me than more channels of HD. Looking at the list of upcoming channels, there's not a ton of compelling stuff in there for me, anyway.

If DTV offers a new HD TiVo box when my current boxes no longer work, it's a no-brainer to stay with DTV. I trust the TiVo brand more than I trust DTV.

But I'm just 1 of 100k HD TiVo users...


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

RS4 said:


> Boy for someone who is complaining about numbers being spouted off you're doing a pretty good job yourself.
> 
> Let's look at your 99% number in a) as example. There's a poll over at Engadget showing that less than 50% of the responders think the HR20 is ready for prime time. That's a long way to go to 99%.
> 
> ...


Boy, you sure waste a lot of time dissing something you've never even tried.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

magnus said:


> I think D* should offer choice. Either by having a Directv sanctioned Tivo or by Tivo being able to create a Tivo that will work with their satellite systems. The FCC should force D* and E* to comply....


I can agree with the first part of your statement, but not the second. We don't need any more government interference in a free economy.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

RS4 said:


> Let's look at your 99% number in a) as example. There's a poll over at Engadget showing that less than 50% of the responders think the HR20 is ready for prime time. That's a long way to go to 99%.


I never said 99% of people were happy with it. I said it would provide 99% of the features that the average user needs. And at the rate they are fixing bugs, it will be 99% reliable (which IMO is higher than Tivo).



RS4 said:


> Let's consider some other numbers. There are still 2.6 million DTivo customers. If even 10% left DirecTV, that's a loss of income of $200 to 250 million in one year alone, plus the slower rate of growth because these folks will no longer recommend DirecTV to there friends as many of us do now.


No one in their right mind would think 10% of Tivo users would leave over this.  And I think you are putting too much into recommendations by friends one way or the other, especially if the only case you have is sour grapes. And what about all of those people not recommending Tivo because of the problems they have had or are having?



RS4 said:


> Let's consider some other facts - Tivo has a brand name recognition that is now getting stronger as their products become visible with DirecTV's competitors.


IMO Tivo has become a generic name for any DVR. Give someone who never had a DRV any brand and they will say 'Oh wow, now I can Tivo shows'. A coworker has a Dish DVR and always coins the term Tivoing things.



RS4 said:


> ..., but DirecTV is enjoying a terrible reputation with their in-house dvr's ....


You keep forgetting to put 'IMO' in front of your statements. Just look here at all of the problems people are still having with the HR10. One could easily say Tivo's reputation is not so hot either.



RS4 said:


> You're not participating in this forum because you like Tivo, that is perfectly clear. But most of that are here do.


Ummm..... I've been on this forum since 99 and have quite often stated that I like my Tivos despite the flaws. But I refuse to be a lemming and not keep an open mind. IMO Tivo lost their edge years ago. They let their product stagnate. In 7+ years little has changed in the core DVR functions. Imagine if Bill Gates expected us to still be happy with Win95.6d.

You on the other hand have made your agenda quite clear.



RS4 said:


> There is nothing wrong with DirecTV leading with their in-house dvr, but also offer the Tivo as an alternative.


There is if it makes no economical sense (from a business standpoint) and no common sense from any other standpoint if you have a product that offers the same or more features and the majority of your customers won't care about brand.



RS4 said:


> Whether you admit it or not, the numbers are in favor of Tivo, and that alone is why DirecTV will make arrangements with Tivo for a follow-on mpeg 4 product.


    Thanks. Now you have really proven that you really don't know what you are talking about.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

ahartman said:


> I guess this is the only beef I have with your argument - there's really no viable way to try it, except to commit to the 2 years. I have 4 DTiVos - 1 of which is an HD-DTiVo.


I suppose this is a valid argument. However, I'm not sure how big of an issue it really is. And it's not like DirecTV is the only service with commitments. For me, cable is not an option and I have no problems with the 2 years. Especially since I bought both of my HR10s when they first came out. So that was in a way a $2K 'commitment' too, and a lot more than what it would cost to pay to get out of the current commitment.

The bottom line is if the unit does what it is suposed to do - record shows - that's all that should really matter. And if it does it releiably, I don't see what the big deal is in learning a new UI even if it isn't as slick as Tivo's (which could be debated forever). I spend 99.9% of my time watching the recorded shows and not navigating the UI. It would have to be a pretty bizzare UI not to be able to adapt to it. And from what I have read and seen, it's just not that big of a deal.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

JimSpence said:


> I can agree with the first part of your statement, but not the second. We don't need any more government interference in a free economy.


Left to itself, capitalism tends to create monopolies and oligopolies. Allowing consumers to have more choice works very much to the benefit of a "free economy".


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Howie said:


> Boy, you sure waste a lot of time dissing something you've never even tried.


How would you suggest we try it?  Many of us would like to try it in fact

When I was on the phone with DirecTV on Sunday, I once again asked about the pricing, trial period, and commitment. Of course, it was the SOS - 'of course you can send it back, but you owe us for 2 years and good luck finding an alternative' :down:

When the polls show that the majority of the current group doesn't like the HR20, there is no way I'm spending $300 just to try someting. 

For some of us, having a Tivo is more important then who supplies the video.  We'll wait and see if DirecTV comes to their senses>


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

+1


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

RS4 said:


> How would you suggest we try it?  Many of us would like to try it in fact


That's funny, from all of your posts one would think you have had one since they first rolled out with all of the bashing you have done. 



RS4 said:


> When the polls show that the majority of the current group doesn't like the HR20, there is no way I'm spending $300 just to try someting.


What *recent* polls are you referring to? Link please.



RS4 said:


> For some of us, having a Tivo is more important then who supplies the video.


For some of us, most of life is more important than Tivo.


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

RS4 said:


> For some of us, having a Tivo is more important then who supplies the video.  We'll wait and see if DirecTV comes to their senses>


If Tivo is the deciding factor for you, why haven't you gone to cable and used an S3 or the new HD Tivo?

Let me guess, content really is the main point for you, you are just in denial.

So either suck it up and go to cable and stop whining, or come back down to reality and realize that you really do care about content more than Tivo.

If you really cared about Tivo over everything else, you would be gone by now because there are Tivo alternatives out there, just not with DirecTV.


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## Cubfan (Aug 19, 2000)

He has yet to listen to one Tivo advocate (me, for example) who has switched to the HR20 and finding it just fine... in some ways even better. Certainly good enough for me, and we'll be enjoying the new HD content when it comes out, and I now have all my locals in glorious HD off the sat... even CUBS GAMES.

Some silly poll on an obscure website where most who voted have never seen or touched the HR20... gosh, that doesn't convince you?  Of course, he's told us that the new HD content won't be very good, not worth going to if we have to lose the smiling antenna guy. I beg to differ.

Here's my bet... he'll hold on with white knuckles until we all start talking about how good "Rescue Me" or "Battlestar Galactica" look in HD. Then he'll try to get one and will cry about how long it takes to get an installer to come over.

It's the content that rules, not the device. Sorry.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Cubfan said:


> It's the content that rules, not the device. Sorry.


Very true. But if said 'device' doesn't consistantly record 'said content ...'

There are many out there that are still having problems with the HR20 (I happen to be among them), and although I'm looking forward to the new MPEG4 HD content ...if my device happens to miss _Rescue Me_ in HD then the content matters not.

I'll do a dance of joy upon being able to rely on the thing for our Series Links being recorded without a miss (or unwatchable program). It's not a bad machine ...it just isn't reliable.


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

RS4 said:


> Let's look at your 99% number in a) as example. There's a poll over at Engadget showing that less than 50% of the responders think the HR20 is ready for prime time. That's a long way to go to 99%.


I just have to laugh at this. Dude - you are using a completely anonymous, unscientific, uncontrolled internet "poll" as a basis for your argument? Even if the poll was leaning to be heavily favorable, all of us HR20 users would even question the validity of that. This poll is a joke - if I were you, I would stop using it as a basis for your arguments. It just makes you look silly and naive.

Oh, I forgot, anything that is posted on the internet is to be taken as fact, 'cause no one would lie or do anything shady on the internet.

Let me just say - I really don't care what DVR anyone uses. I am not trying to persuade anyone to an HR20. What I am trying to do is help present *facts* to anyone trying to make the decision. Instead, we have anonymous RS4 (who I don't believe has even posted his first name anywhere) spewing a few facts, but then twisting them and injecting his own opinions as facts. That's why you have brought us HR20 users out of the woodwork. We don't like it when people start spewing opinion (or even outright incorrect statements) as fact. We are not drinking the kool-aid, we are not burying our heads in the sand. Quite the contrary if you ask me - it appears you are the one who is burying your head in the sand.

Bryan


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> It's not a bad machine ...it just isn't reliable _*for me* _ .


(I added to your quote to make it more clear)

You need to qualify that, for you, it isn't reliable.

Because in my case, it hasn't missed a recording yet. It has been extremely reliable and has done everything I have asked it to do.

However, my HR10 locked up (for the first time in a long time) a few weeks ago and missed lots of stuff. How is that for an old kick in the head? Maybe it was mad because it's now in the bedroom instead of in the family room. 

Are there annoying things about my HR20? Of course (but in the end, they don't really stop me from using it how I use it). The HR10 had annoying things as well, but that didn't stop me from using that machine or claiming it was a great DVR.

It all boils down to this. There are some people that it works 100% for, and there are some people that it doesn't work 100% for. But what it seems like, is that if anyone posts that it works 100% for them, they are said to be shilling, trying to convert one's way of life or burying their head in the sand. And likewise, when someone posts that it doesn't work 100% of the time, we have the anti-HR20 crowd jump on that one instance for that one person and claim the HR20 is a POS, when in their own Tivo forum, the same types of things happen with their beloved HR10. That's what we are trying to counter and give an *accurate* picture of what it's really like to have an HR20.

The problem is, you won't know until you try it, and I completely understand the 2 year committment as being a road block. I, too, think it is completely ridiculous that DirecTV doesn't allow a trial period. Earl, maybe you can check with your contact on if there is a way to allow a 14 day trial period before the 2 year contract kicks in? To me, that makes the most business sense. D* might actually win over some Tivo lovers if they actually had a chance to use the HR20 without being locked in. Then again, those users may realize that they really don't like the HR20 - but then they would actually know for sure, instead of having to rely on forum postings.

Bryan


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bacevedo said:


> (I added to your quote to make it more clear)
> 
> You need to qualify that for you, it isn't reliable.
> 
> ...


I thought by prefacing my comment with "There are many out there that are still having problems with the HR20 _(I happen to be among them_), " I had 'qualified' that the problems I was having were my own.


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## Cubfan (Aug 19, 2000)

bacevedo said:


> Because in my case, it hasn't missed a recording yet. It has been extremely reliable and has done everything I have asked it to do.


Same here. Don't know what I'm doing right (or wrong), but I haven't been able to get it to fail yet. Not that I've had it a super-long time, mind you.

Then again, memory lane on my DirecTivo experience isn't as stellar...

1. A software update brought many random reboots and lockups.

2. I missed a whole bunch of my favorite programs because this super-reliable device decided that all my season passes had "been changed by me or a member of my family" or some such nonsense.

3. I couldn't reset those season passes, because the programs weren't available on the guide for several weeks.

4. Months of audio dropouts on HD programming.

5. Lovely commercials that record without my asking for them.

All that with the pitifully slow guide that crawls onto the screen whenever I wanted to see it among other annoyances from the aging device.

I'm trying to figure out why I don't feel so insanely loyal to the old error-prone device or how I could possibly be satisfied with a new device that brings me more content and works as advertised. Perhaps I'll call a shrink, as there's gotta be something wrong with me.


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

RS4 said:


> How would you suggest we try it?  Many of us would like to try it in fact
> 
> When I was on the phone with DirecTV on Sunday, I once again asked about the pricing, trial period, and commitment. Of course, it was the SOS - 'of course you can send it back, but you owe us for 2 years and good luck finding an alternative' :down:
> 
> ...


Whatever your reason for not trying it, you still seem to waste a lot of time dissing something that you've never even tried. Mine works great, going on a year now. And my HR10 works great, too, for over 3 years now if I remember correctly. But the Tivo can't receive MPEG4 (I'm not sure what that is, but I want it ). The new interface ain't exactly rocket science to pick up, either. Come on, Scrooge. Try it, you'll like it!


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

TiVo Community > 

Main TiVo Forums > 

DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs >

DIRECTV to Introduce Additional TiVo Features >

buzz off


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

One other thing (back on topic I guess). Could these new features have anything to do with bug fixes for the Tivos and the guide issues they have with "Someone modified your season pass".

Could it be that DirecTV is trying to fix the CIR issue for their HR20 (and other in house receivers) and it is the DirecTivo boxes that are causing them grief? Maybe Tivo said, sure, we'll fix them for you, but the fix is in this code base with these additional features (doubtful). Or maybe DirecTV really wanted the bug fix and decided they might as well add some new features at the same time and asked Tivo to do both.

They have said repeatedly that the CIR bug is not in the HR20, but with other receivers not being able to handle the changes in the stream. I think it's curious that the "Modified Season Pass" issue is coming up again. Sounds to me like D* might be turning on features in the stream for testing and the current software in the DTivo can't handle it. How convenient that all of the DTivo receivers will be getting a new software upgrade next year.  (OK, I am not generally a conspiracy theorist, but I find the timing odd).

Bryan


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

fasTLane said:


> TiVo Community >
> 
> Main TiVo Forums >
> 
> ...


In the not too distant future:

TiVo Community >

Main TiVo Forums >

DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs >

_Forum closed due to discontinued and obsolete model, and constant duplicate threads claiming Tivo will be back_


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## Robert Spalding (Jan 12, 2001)

wow you guys really ruined this thread


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## Whynot (Jul 21, 2007)

What else is there to do in Hondo!


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Then it would be nice if companies would act responsibly on their own without the need for government intervention. However, we all know that D* and E* will not do this voluntarily.



JimSpence said:


> I can agree with the first part of your statement, but not the second. We don't need any more government interference in a free economy.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Robert Spalding said:


> wow you guys really ruined this thread


How was it ruined?  The first few posts talked about some new features we may or may not ever see. There wasn't much else to discuss about that. Granted it may have strayed off topic but had it not, it would be on page 5 by now and the only other threads at the top would be the same old "My Tivo locked up' or a different flavor of HR10 vs HR20.


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## Robert Spalding (Jan 12, 2001)

thats my point...instead of talking about the new features and whether we get them on the hr10-250...it turned into a complain-fest


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Robert Spalding said:


> thats my point...instead of talking about the new features and whether we get them on the hr10-250...it turned into a complain-fest


It was talked about, What more is there to say? Either we will see them or we won't. Although the discussion did stray a bit, it still revolved around Tivo's future with DirecTV (and thus was related). Is adding some features an indication that there will be a MPEG4 Tivo? IMO, no. Others seem to think it will. Only time will tell.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Robert Spalding said:


> thats my point...instead of talking about the new features and whether we get them on the hr10-250...it turned into a complain-fest


No, what they're worried about is that they've put up with HR20 mess for a year now and that DirecTV will realize the mistake they've made, go back to Tivo, and come out with another set of robust products 

Meanwhile they'll be updating they're forum with year 2 in review and marvel at how DirecTV now has 75% of what they advertised now working in the HR20.  Oh yeah, the poll will show that 52% now think the box is ready for primetime!! :up:


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## BBURNES (Jun 23, 2004)

Thanks for your responses to my long post about 4 pages back. Have been on vacation and am now just getting back to the thread.

Just a couple comments to a few of the posters and a few additional thoughts back from me:

First, I've been a fan of both D* and TiVo. Purchased D* in 97 and HD TiVo in 04. So my positions aren't pitting one vs. the other. I'd like to see them working together again. Have never owned cable and am not a fan.

Bonscott, I was aware of the HR20 not being an NDS product. But the SD version was NDS and, in any case, outsourcing to TiVo was not an option with Murdoch. But appreciate the clarification for all...

Also, definitely aware that the HR20 is broadband connected and that the D* plan was to add MRV, online scheduling and VOD later. My minor point, poorly worded I would add, is that in a cable/TiVo execution, the broadband connection and the TV content are both delivered by the same provider in the same pipe. This offers the cable company the opportunity for a seamless, branded solution and marketing advantage. For example, Comcast could communicate, "One Comcast pipeline does it all. With your ComTivo connected to Comcast Broadband (or whatever it is called), your Comcast-delivered TV viewing experience is the absolute best and utterly simple." Of course, that is advertising speak...but it gives them ability to create a benefit in the consumer mind. I should have worded my thoughts a bit better previously...

Mr. Lopez, I respectfully disagree with your thoughts on the value of brands. Everything else equal, consumers prefer brands. I'd rather drink Coke than a store-brand cola. The DVR world -- for the vast majority of consumers -- is the same. My observation of consumers is that while they use the word TiVo as the ubiquitous term for a DVR (like Coke or Kleenex,) they DO know if they do or don't have the real McCoy. When I ask them what kind of DVR they have and they say TiVo, I'll inquire further, asking if they have a real TiVo. And from those who don't own real TiVos, their response is often a sheepish..."well I have that thing the cable company gave me, its kind of the same..." They don't seem to be embarassed by the knock-off, but honestly, seem to wish they had the real thing they hear people rave about. Everything else equal, they'll take real brand.

As the human creatures we are, we like driving Beemers, wearing Nike shoes, having an iPod (rather than generic mp3 player) and, yes, like a TiVo. It says something about the consumer. Expresses their personality. A "badge" if you will. How much people are willing to pay for the added value of the brand name is another subject -- important to TiVo by the way -- but does not diminish or alter the fact that humans like brands. Thus, they do have value. Big value.

You also question whether TiVo is really more dependable, powerful by pointing out recent issues with the HR10. The point I was making was not specific to the HR10. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I was describing the reputation of the brand TiVo in general to the average Joe Blow. By most any measure, TiVo has enjoyed a tremendous reputation for quality, dependability, cool functionality, innovation, "changing people's lives", etc. TiVo did not achieve the status of being synonomous with "DVR" by accident. 

Now if D* decided to brand / name their DVR in some unique way, develop unique innovations and then spend years promoting it, maybe consumers would get jazzed about the D* DVR. However, they haven't. So, again, all else equal, if consumer has choice of TiVo or generic DVR (D*, E*, cable, etc), TiVo wins.

A few additional points...

As I mentioned in my earlier post, things are NOT equal, of course. After the D* and TiVo divorce, distribution and promotion of TiVo service was greatly limited and unequal, only available via relatively expensive SA hardware and subscription. But that is changing. And since TiVo users at D* are among the LOWEST churn segments of their customer base, they are very valuable to them. As consumers upgrade their televisions to HD, they will put themselves back in the market for an HD DVR and another 2-year commitment. Thus they are DVR buyers again and risk being poached by competitors. When the buyer has choice and is squarely in the buying market, the opportunity exists that they won't re-up with D*. 

My point is NOT that a huge number of average consumers are going to leave D* over the TiVo issue alone. My point is that when consumer has option of staying with D* and generic DVR or go to cable with bundled high-speed internet, VOIP AND TiVo (the brand name they'd rather have anyway), and no long term equipment commitment, the fence sitters may opt to go cable...particularly if the price is close. While they may not like the cable company, the opportunity for bundled services and the comfort and brand quality of TiVo will cause some people to change. TiVo becomes a "part" of the buying decision -- a good part for the cable cos.

Many posters say content is king. I AGREE. No question about it. However, every few months or so, someone has more content. In the HD world today, that's likely E*. In 6 months it may be D*. Next summer it may be cable once their transition from analog to digital and switched digital video opens bandwidth. My point is content fluctuates from month to month. I don't switch providers every few months; most people are the same. In other words, if I was otherwise inclined to purchase D* today, I wouldn't be worried about their lack of HD...they're adding more soon. So is everybody.

You know, the sad thing is that the tables have turned in the industry between two of my favorite brands. TiVo, the innovator in DVR technology, and DirecTV, the innovative and high quality TV content distributor, are now on opposite sides. The combination of D* and TiVo actually helped D* become unique in the marketplace and helped TiVo establish itself as a brand. As D* continues to look for ways to differentiate itself from traditionally low-quality and low-reputation cable companies, they now find themselves without one of their key tools for differentiation, innovation and quality: TiVo. D* said goodbye to a tool whose assets would help them in their fight -- the TiVo brand name and the innovative features currently turned off. TiVo is now in the hands of the competition and it seems very odd to say it, but right now, cable companies seem more innovative with bundled services and TiVo -- not D*. I wish I was a fly on the wall when the negotiations went south and they went their separate ways to be able to completely understand the reasons, but on the face of it, it seems like a strange decision.

Since I don't own an HR20, I won't comment about its strengths, weaknesses, etc. But it's really not the point anyway. 

Launching a generic DVR with functionality that's been around for 3 or 4 years on Series 2 SA TiVos is not innovation. Does not give consumers reason to be fans of D*. Long term, D* must return to its innovative roots to provide unique content BEYOND what cable is soon to offer.

Wouldn't it make more sense to create a new D* TiVo platform that activates all or most of TiVo Series 3 functionality? Or two levels of service (at separate price points) -- current and enhanced? As D* fights the cable companies and their increasingly bundled services, D* needs to innovate, create reasons for people to come aboard. Not reasons to leave. Not backward steps, wasting time and resources creating and debugging a generic version of what they already had (not turned on, of course), 3 years behind the times. 

For all of these reasons (and the reasons I posted back on page 2) I believe there will be a kiss and make up coming. The press release is the clincher to me. Maybe I'm wrong. But if I'm D*, I want to go to war with TiVo in my pocket, not as a lever used against me.

But as much as I've never been a cable fan, if D* and TiVo don't get it worked out, for ALL of the reasons above, I'm considering going cable. One bill a month. TV with more HD coming, faster broadband than my DSL, VOIP...and TiVo, of course.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Mark Lopez said:


> RS4 said:
> 
> 
> > When the polls show that the majority of the current group doesn't like the HR20, there is no way I'm spending $300 just to try someting.
> ...


Yup. I'd love to know, too.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

DTV has two big hooks into consumers right now. Exclusive sports packages like Sunday Ticket and a single DVR charge.

If those two items were gone, how many people would change there minds. Myself I really don't care about the sports packages. I left DVR because frankly I like choice and I like to periodically shake things up and try the competition. Maybe I will switch to U-Verse maybe something else but I don't feel handcuffed like some of you guys because of the sports packages.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

BBURNES said:


> Mr. Lopez, I respectfully disagree with your thoughts on the value of brands. Everything else equal, consumers prefer brands. I'd rather drink Coke than a store-brand cola. The DVR world -- for the vast majority of consumers -- is the same. My observation of consumers is that while they use the word TiVo as the ubiquitous term for a DVR (like Coke or Kleenex,) they DO know if they do or don't have the real McCoy.


Perhaps I did not state my opinion clearly. What I menat was for someone who has not owned a DVR, 'Tivo' is the generic term used. In other words, the only people that the "Tivo' brand would probably really mean anything is someone who already has owned one and actually knows the difference. And since the majority of DirvcTV customers still don't have a DVR, the brand probably does not mean anything. So in relation to the question of DirecTV offering a MPEG4 Tivo, I still stand by my opinion that it won't happen because the only people it would matter to is current Tivo users and only those who refuse to switch.

Oh, and did you read the story about the McDonald's wrappers? It seems that people really don't care what is inside as long as it's 'labeled' as something they know.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Mark Lopez said:


> Oh, and did you read the story about the McDonald's wrappers? It seems that people really don't care what is inside as long as it's 'labeled' as something they know.


The people were 4 year olds.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

fasTLane said:


> The people were 4 year olds.


Are children not 'people' too? If they are cut ...do they not bleed?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

fasTLane said:


> The people were 4 year olds.


Which is about the same age that some here act over this. 'Boo hoo hoo I want Tivo'.


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## Whynot (Jul 21, 2007)

Mark Lopez said:


> Which is about the same age that some here act over this. 'Boo hoo hoo I want Tivo'.


Lupe in Hondo

That is a great come back on the facts!

Do you try to be a idiot or is it just natural?

Why don't you go watch some TV or did your DVR not record your show!


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## BBURNES (Jun 23, 2004)

Mark,

You're certainly right that D* customers who don't have a DirecTiVo don't know the difference.

But the fact remains that when they're ready to buy -- and they have a choice as to what to buy -- they'll go with the brand name nearly every time. That's the power of a brand.

Thus, if an uneducated consumer is ready to make a DVR buying choice, and price is relatively close, most consumers will grab the brand name they've heard about, heard friends discuss, that has a hip coolness and brand reputation. TiVo.

But they don't have that choice at D*. Only elsewhere.

Again, please don't misunderstand. Not saying tons of people are ready to leave because of this alone. But combined with other bundled services, simplicity and TiVo, it puts D* at some risk.

Why else would they announce it via Press Release AND discuss future enhancements?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

BBURNES said:


> Mark,
> 
> You're certainly right that D* customers who don't have a DirecTiVo don't know the difference.
> 
> But the fact remains that when they're ready to buy -- and they have a choice as to what to buy -- they'll go with the brand name nearly every time. That's the power of a brand.


*DIRECTV* is a brand name as well. Customers who don't have a DIRECTiVo or any TiVo, for that matter, could just as easily go with the DIRECTV brand name.



> Thus, if an uneducated consumer is ready to make a DVR buying choice, and price is relatively close, most consumers will grab the brand name they've heard about, heard friends discuss, that has a hip coolness and brand reputation. TiVo.


The local cable companies are also well known, and many uneducated consumers ready to make a DVR choice opt to go with the cable company's DVR because they get an all-in-one solution: content and DVR service from the same company. Many people will opt to go with DIRECTV for the same reason: all-in-one solution.



> But they don't have that choice at D*. Only elsewhere.


With the exception of Comcast (sometime this year? Decade?) the cable companies only offer one DVR solution. DIRECTV currently offers one solution, and it's a good one, too.



> Again, please don't misunderstand. Not saying tons of people are ready to leave because of this alone. But combined with other bundled services, simplicity and TiVo, it puts D* at some risk.


After reading about the problems with cable cards, I'm not sure there's all that much "simplicity" in setting up Series 3 HD DVRs ... seems more like a crap shoot to me whether or not it will work the first try, and then many people seem to be having problems later on ...


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Whynot said:


> Lupe in Hondo


 



Whynot said:


> That is a great come back on the facts!


You mean like all of the 'facts' the HR20 bashers are spewing?



Whynot said:


> Do you try to be a idiot or is it just natural?


Yep, let's resort to personal insults when we have nothing intelligent to say.  Guess you forgot to read the forum rules.



Whynot said:


> Why don't you go watch some TV or did your DVR not record your show!


Well, since you asked, yes my Almighty Tivo did fail to record some shows and had shorted recordings too.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Bburnes arguement makes a lot of sense. It's not a make-or-break deal with Directv, it's just common sense to improve its overall appeal. Both sides have more motivation to reach a deal than they did a year ago. The wildcard is still Malone, no one knows if he's been using a Tivo.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

BBURNES said:


> Mark,
> 
> You're certainly right that D* customers who don't have a DirecTiVo don't know the difference.
> 
> But the fact remains that when they're ready to buy -- and they have a choice as to what to buy -- they'll go with the brand name nearly every time. That's the power of a brand.


But if they are ready to buy (assume no Tivo option), and they ask the DirecTV rep "Can I Tivo stuff?", the DirecTV reps response will be something like. "The DirecTV DVR can record all of your shows, pause live TV etc etc etc." The customer IMO won't care that the rep said that it was a DirecTV DVR, just that it can record (Tivo) stuff. Again we are talking about customers who never owned a Tivo and the only thing the brand name means to them is it can record stuff. It's like other brand names that have just turned into a generic term. Ever call a roll of 'Scotch tape' anything other than that regardless of who made it? Or a box of 'Kleenex'? The point being is I don't think DirecTV needs to worry about not actually carrying the brand name for those customers.


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## Whynot (Jul 21, 2007)

Mark Lopez said:


> You mean like all of the 'facts' the HR20 bashers are spewing?


Duhh What forum are you at?



Mark Lopez said:


> Yep, let's resort to personal insults when we have nothing intelligent to say.  Guess you forgot to read the forum rules.


Was not trying to get personal just was curious!



Mark Lopez said:


> Well, since you asked, yes my Almighty Tivo did fail to record some shows and had shorted recordings too.


Then head on over to DBStalk


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Whynot said:


> Duhh What forum are you at?


Ummm... The same one I've been at for over 7 years. And what, you have been here for a few weeks.......



Whynot said:


> Then head on over to DBStalk


...and now feel you are the duty forum police?


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## Cruzan (Dec 21, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> But if they are ready to buy (assume no Tivo option), and they ask the DirecTV rep "Can I Tivo stuff?", the DirecTV reps response will be something like. "The DirecTV DVR can record all of your shows, pause live TV etc etc etc." The customer IMO won't care that the rep said that it was a DirecTV DVR, just that it can record (Tivo) stuff. Again we are talking about customers who never owned a Tivo and the only thing the brand name means to them is it can record stuff. It's like other brand names that have just turned into a generic term. Ever call a roll of 'Scotch tape' anything other than that regardless of who made it? Or a box of 'Kleenex'? The point being is I don't think DirecTV needs to worry about not actually carrying the brand name for those customers.


You are supporting his argument. If the box has a big "Tivo" logo on the box, customers will know what it does - they won't have to ask. The sale is more likely to go through. That's what branding _is_.

All he is saying is that if everything else is the same, DirecTV would be better off with a Tivo on their boxes than not. If it's cheap to do, than they should.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Mark Lopez said:


> Which is about the same age that some here act over this. 'Boo hoo hoo I want Tivo'.





Mark Lopez said:


> :Yep, let's resort to personal insults when we have nothing intelligent to say.  Guess you forgot to read the forum rules.


I suppose you'd recognize the tactic since you resort to it as soon as you run out of cogent arguments. That seems to come about halfway through your first post in any given thread.

I'm not sure that forum rules are really in force here. I see no other reason they would tolerate the presence of someone who's only contribution seems to be constantly insulting people whose preferences and priorities happen to differ from their own.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Cruzan said:


> You are supporting his argument. If the box has a big "Tivo" logo on the box, customers will know what it does - they won't have to ask. The sale is more likely to go through. That's what branding _is_.


But with DirecTVs current statagy, they never see the box since mostly you have to order it directy through them or a dealer. It's not like before where you could walk into Best Buy and see them stacked up to the ceiling.

Oh and both of my HR-10s say DirecTV HD DVR in big letters and only have a little Tivo guy in the corner that you practically need a magnifying glass to see. I don't recall what the packing box looked like, but again people aren't generally buying these in the store any more.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

nrc said:


> I suppose you'd recognize the tactic since you resort to it as soon as you run out of cogent arguments.


Guess you missed the  at the end. 



nrc said:


> I'm not sure that forum rules are really in force here. I see no other reason they would tolerate the presence of someone who's only contribution seems to be constantly insulting people whose preferences and priorities happen to differ from their own.


LOL. Please point out anywhere I insulted anyone. I've tried to have a logical and civil debate about these issues. And oddly there have been many others in this and other threads voicing the same POV, so why aren't you flaming them too? 

Oh, see my user title?
<------ Feel free to act upon it if my posts annoy you so much.


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

BBURNES said:


> Mark,
> Thus, if an uneducated consumer is ready to make a DVR buying choice, *and price is relatively close*, most consumers will grab the brand name they've heard about, heard friends discuss, that has a hip coolness and brand reputation. TiVo.


In rebuttal to the above statement... (FYI - I enjoy your posts, they are very thought provoking)

Where else do consumers have a choice for a Tivo HD DVR for $19.95 (S&H) and only $5.99 month DVR fee? Nowhere. An inexpensive HD Tivo does not exist. The reason DirecTV did so well with the original DTivos is because they were actually cheaper than their standalone brothers (besides being integrated). Yes a few of us (me included) bought them because they were a Tivo, but I know a whole bunch of people who got them because they were cheap and had no clue what Tivo meant. They just knew they could record their shows.

People will choose the cheapest option, regardless of brand name. One has to only look at the success of Walmart and generic branded products to see that.

Let's say DirecTV offers their HR20 HD DVR for free or for a premium upgrade (for $199) you can have a DirecTV HD Tivo. What do you think those people are going to choose who bought their $499 Vizio HD TV special at Walmart? The free option.

I think you might be confusing the young generation who are very brand aware, with the older generation who is actually making the financial decisions on a DirecTV account. The older generation could care less about the "hip" factor or brand name of Tivo. They want a DVR - even if they do call it Tivo out of confusion.

Tivo is not a brand to most people - it's a technology term, like a computer. People will say they have an IBM PC when it's really a Dell. To them, all IBMs are the same. In other words, all Tivos (DVRs) are the same. That's the problem Tivo has - it's name is now associated with the action (of digitally recording TV) instead of the actual product and brand. I need to look no further than all of my friends who claim they have a Tivo, when in reality they have a Cox DVR or Dish DVR. If they were brand aware, they would know the difference. For example, I don't hear those same people say they have an iPod when they really have an mp3 player. They know an iPod is not the same as their mp3 player. Not so much with the Tivo.

Bryan


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## Whynot (Jul 21, 2007)

nrc said:


> I suppose you'd recognize the tactic since you resort to it as soon as you run out of cogent arguments. That seems to come about halfway through your first post in any given thread.
> 
> I'm not sure that forum rules are really in force here. I see no other reason they would tolerate the presence of someone who's only contribution seems to be constantly insulting people whose preferences and priorities happen to differ from their own.


Well said!

Wish I could of put my thoughts before my emotion but could not get past the constant banter from Lopez.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Whynot said:


> Wish I could of put my thoughts before my emotion but could not get past the constant banter from Lopez.


So we are having a serious discussion over some issues and just because someone makes a few obvious jokes you decide it's time to start throwing out personal insults? 

Actually after looking at all 13 of your posts, besides flaming people (not just me) it seems that is all you have contributed are such thought provoking lines such as "+1" - "WTF are you talking about?" - "What else is there to do in Hondo!" - "....go back to DBS!" and my favorite "...there is no reason to debate things!"

So any time you care to actually carry on an intelligent conversation, feel free to jump in. But it is clear from your posts that you have no intention of doing that. Whether it's because you don't actually have a valid argument to present or you are just trolling is hard to tell. But IMO it's probably both.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> Guess you missed the  at the end.


Yeah, but just because you use that emoticon  it doesn't mean you haven't (knowingly) taken another jab at the "TiVo lemmings" that you fondly speak of so often.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I saw this news article saying that DTV and E* subscribers are slowing. The headline implied the housing market could be causing it but the article says they feel its an increase it churn.
http://mediabiz.blogs.cnnmoney.com/2007/08/10/housing-pain-hitting-satellite-and-cable-tv/

It would be interesting to know if the increased competition from Cable and U-verse is having an effect increasing churn.


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

I received the official email from D* today saying that my DirectTV/Tivos will be receiving this upgrade.

Here is the email:
_
Great news for DIRECTV/TiVo customersnew features are on the way!

We know you love your DIRECTV/TiVo and we at DIRECTV are working with TiVo to make it even better. As a DIRECTV/TiVo customer, you'll soon have access to the latest innovations such as: 

*DIRECTV Remote Booking.* Forgot to set up a recording before you left the house? From any computer with Internet access you can schedule recordings remotely by visiting directv.com.
*Recently Deleted Folder.* Quickly restore deleted programs to your "Now Playing" list.
*Overlap Protection.* Never worry about recording conflicts again. For consecutive scheduled recordings that overlap, TiVo will clip the ending of the first show or the beginning of the second (based on the higher priority), but will never cancel one of your recordings.
These new features are completely FREE and you don't need to do anything to get them. In early 2008 the enhancements will automatically download to your DIRECTV/TiVo receiver, if it is hooked up to a land-based phone line. *DIRECTV and TiVo will continue to explore future enhancements to bring you the most robust TV viewing experience*.

So sit back, relax and continue to enjoy the best television available.

Thank you for being a loyal DIRECTV customer.

View full press release._​
That last sentence (bolded above) certainly sounds interesting. I am still not convinced that DirecTV and Tivo won't create an MP4 HD DirecTivo. One thing I know, you can't ever discount something based on your knowledge today. Things change in a blink of an eye and suddenly the reason for a decision in the past has no bearing today and those decisions can be reversed. I am happy with my HR20, but I would definitely check out a new Tivo based DVR from D*.

Bryan


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

The 2 & a half million Directv subscribers that currently have a Tivo may be a big enough elephant in the room to bring about the change. 
I hope we don't have to wait till the end of the year for it be finalized.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

zalusky said:


> I saw this news article saying that DTV and E* subscribers are slowing. The headline implied the housing market could be causing it but the article says they feel its an increase it churn.
> http://mediabiz.blogs.cnnmoney.com/2007/08/10/housing-pain-hitting-satellite-and-cable-tv/
> 
> It would be interesting to know if the increased competition from Cable and U-verse is having an effect increasing churn.


 That was a blog, not a news article. Sub growth at DTV is not slowing, it just didn't meet ANALYSTS' expectations. DTV added 128k new subs in the quarter. They're up 5% from last year at the same time.. The churn rrate (1.58%) *dropped*, rather than increasing. One key measurement, Average Revenue Per Unit (average customer bill), was up 7% to $76.43, mostly due to HD DVR customers. Revenue was up 17%.

Motley Fool's headline sums it up: Low Churn, Happy DirecTV Investors

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2007/08/10/low-churn-happy-directv-investors.aspx

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/08/09/ap4005948.html


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

I ordered a S3 when my 10-250 broke with the expectation of switching to Comcast, but then TiVo replaced the 10-250 (apparently one of the last of its replacement units). So then I couldn't bear to give up the 10-250 I decided to stick with DirecTV for now, and deveote the S3 to OTA, since its OTA tuner is so much better. If DirecTV ever switches completely to MPEG4, or if Comcast or FIOS starts offering a better selection of non-local HD channels, then I'm poised to switch. On the other hand, if DirecTV comes out with a MPEG4 TiVo, with a decent trade-up option, then I'll probably end up remaining a DirecTV customer.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> Yeah, but just because you use that emoticon  it doesn't mean you haven't (knowingly) taken another jab at the "TiVo lemmings" that you fondly speak of so often.


Yes, I will admit it was a bit of a jab just like when I use the term Tivo zealots. But if you or others find it 'insulting' or annoying, just remember it's a two way street. Many of us (who actually do like Tivo) are equally insulted and annoyed by the constant bashing, truth stretching and often outright lies some of those lemmings and zealots spout about the HR20. For every one of the problems people complain about with the HR20 you can find the equivalent gripe about the HR10 here. No one is saying the HR20 is perfect. But OTOH, the HR20 bashers would like every one to think Tivo is.

Personally, I would love to see an MPEG4 Tivo *if* they finally add the features people have been asking for since day one. But as I said earlier, Tivo has stagnated. They are making little if any improvements to the core DVR functions. And I'm sorry, but no one is going to convince me (and others) that it doesn't need any improvements.

The bottom line is as much as I like my Tivo, the brand name is just not that important. Give me a DVR that works with the functions I want and need and I don't care if Apple makes it, I'll buy it. 

The bulk of this thread despite it's original intent was discussion about the feasibility of DirecTV offering a MPEG4 Tivo. We could debate that forever I suppose, but personally I just don't see it happening. There are indeed a lot of current Tivo users out there. But judging by posts in this thread and others made by previous Tivo users, many are quite happy with the HR20. So the big question that no one can really answer is, - are there enough Tivo users who actually do care enough that they would/will bail? I'm going to speculate that DirecTV feels there aren't. Again only time will tell.

Oh, and unless they was already one in secret developement, it would probably be at least a year before we saw one hit the street. By that time the MPEG4 HD channels will be in full swing and people will have already switched to the HR20 or bailed anyway.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> The bottom line is as much as I like my Tivo, the brand name is just not that important. Give me a DVR that works with the functions I want and need and I don't care if Apple makes it, I'll buy it.


Fair enough. And quite honestly ...I agree with much of what you've stated (subtle jabs aside). I too am not concerned about the name on the DVR, I just want it to record ...reliably and consistantly.

I resent the fact that D* utilized me as a beta guinea pig ...all the while locking me in for another 2 years. I was disappointed that their latest and greatest came out w/o DLB's, and lacked several other common-sense functions that were already on their TiVo units.

The first 6+ months with that unit was a pure suckfest ...and they kept swapping them out (4 times) with no improvement. I spent hours on the phone each month going over the same bs, and eventually just gave up on the phone-in complaining.

And although I still believe that the HR20 is sorely lacking in some respects, I have high hopes that things will get better in the months to come. That remains to be seen.

Certainly, the HR10 and HR20 have similar problems, but many ...myself included ...have had the unfortunate problem of 'missed (unwatchable) recordings.' In the many years I've owned TiVo, I can count the instances of a missed recording on one hand. --I've lost count with the HR20.

And although I've not seen a huge amount of "outright lies" here about the HR20, I find it ironic that you'd find the bashing of the oft maligned unit to be "insulting." This is afterall, the _TiVo_ Community Forum, so what do you expect?


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

It's really an open question: how many of the 2 1/5 million Tivo SD directv customers will want a TivoHD when they switch? How many might switch to cable if Directv doesn't offer one?
I never thought I'd ever consider going back to cable(been with Directv since it started), but now I'm thinking "why not?"(especially since cable has now secured MLBEI - the reason I got Satellite in the first place). 
Even if they only risk losing a few hundred thousand customers - why do it?
On Tivo's side, their demands may also be more realistic now. Even if they don't make as much per customer as they used to it's very much in their interest to reach a new agreement with Directv.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Cudahy said:


> Even if they only risk losing a few hundred thousand customers - why do it?


This is a valid question and really the basis for my POV - cost benefit.

Would if be more cost effective to offer a MPEG4 Tivo with the associated TiVo/DirecTV relationship costs and the associated costs of supporting two different platforms, or just stick with one and lose some customers? Ideally (from a consumer standpoint) we would like choice. But from a business standpoint it just may not be cost effective. I'm sure DirecTV's bean counters have already crunched the numbers and presented their different scenarios. Companies are in business primarily to make a profit. Ideally if they can do that and keep their customers happy, great. But given a choice between profit and appeasing a small percentage of customers, IMO profit will usually win.

And again, there is the question of just how many customers would they actually loose. A few hundred thousand seems way too high IMO. I really don't think there are that many die-hard Tivo users out there that would actually bail over this. Heck, there are a lot of us rural folks that couldn't switch to anything but Dish anyway because there is no cable option.



Sir_winealot said:


> I resent the fact that D* utilized me as a beta guinea pig ...all the while locking me in for another 2 years. I was disappointed that their latest and greatest came out w/o DLB's, and lacked several other common-sense functions that were already on their TiVo units.
> 
> The first 6+ months with that unit was a pure suckfest ...and they kept swapping them out (4 times) with no improvement.


On the flip side the first 6 months with the HR10 when they first came out was no picnic either and the 'utilized as a beta guinea pig' line could have been used then too. And keep in mind we early adopters that paved the way for everyone else, spent $1K a pop for that 'privilege'. Just look at all of the HDMI cards that died (one of mine is still dead). And there were a slew of other problems too, some which still exist today, and some they introduced with their latest updates.

So I do recognize there were problems at release and some remaining ones. The question though, is how stable is it now (for most people) and how quickly are those remaining issues being addressed? From all I have read, DirecTV has been pretty good at addressing them.

That said, I'll try to stay out of this thread. It is a Tivo forum after all.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> On the flip side the first 6 months with the HR10 when they first came out was no picnic either and the 'utilized as a beta guinea pig' line could have been used then too. Just look at all of the HDMI cards that died (one of mine is still dead). And there were a slew of other problems too, some which still exist, and some they introduced with their latest updates.
> 
> So I do recognize there were problems at release and some remaining ones. The question though, is how stable is it now (for most people) and how quickly are those remaining issues being addressed? From all I have read, DirecTV has been pretty good at addressing them.


I dunno about that ...comparitively speaking, my HR10 certainly had some bugs to work out, but it never missed recording a program. My HR20 was missing upwards of 5 recordings a month in the first 6 months. Now, it misses 1 or 2 each month ...still not acceptable.

But yes, they are addressing the HR20 problems at a somewhat impressive pace. And if they continue to do so, it'll be a pretty good little box ...but until that time I'll not even consider utilizing it as our primary DVR. Over time I hope my attitude changes and I can depend on it to record the programming we enjoy.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

What are "the associated costs of carrying 2 boxes"? Wouldn't the Tivo box simply be using the same data that the HR20 is? Directv could even claim the extra few dollars a month they would charge for the Tivo box.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Cudahy said:


> What are "the associated costs of carrying 2 boxes"?


R&D to develop it. Manufacturing costs. Royalties to Tivo for the code. Support costs both CS (i.e. when you call them) and technical (i.e. a feature has bugs). Every time you want to create an enhancement (i.e. something that may change the data stream like guide data) you have to debug, beta test and then update both platforms.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

These are primarily costs for Tivo(except for the customer support costs - calling a CSR that doesn't know anything). It sounds like Tivo thinks it's worth it. Guess we'll know in the next few months.


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## BBURNES (Jun 23, 2004)

Bacevedo,

I agree with you. There isn't a place currently where you can get a TiVo HD DVR for $19.95 (S&H) and only $5.99 month DVR fee. That's my point. Things aren't equal.

But soon, when Comcast launches their service, there will be a choice. While price hasn't been announced yet, when all's said and done, it'll probably be fairly close. Then consumers will have choice for real TiVo again -- at relatively equal pricing (as opposed to SA TiVo.) That will represent a bit of a dagger in D* -- their former business partner will then be on other side. And Comcast will be actively using the TiVo brand name as a promotional tool against D*.

Respectfully, I disagree with you on brand/pricing issue. Definitely consumers want to spend less as a general rule. But people are also willing to spend more for brands. When buying peas in the supermarket, or Ibuprofin in a drug store, I'm likely to go with a generic and save a few bucks. But I nearly never buy store brand colas. I buy Coke (or Pepsi) and am glad to spend more. For older consumers with more money to spend, is a Lexus any better than a Toyota? Not really. Certainly not for the extra money spent for a few minor cosmetic differences. But millions of people buy Lexus, right? Why? The brand name. 

So let's talk about price/value for the uneducated DVR buyer, the person who has never owned a DVR at D*. Let's say tomorrow, D* offered 2 options: DirecTiVo and DirecTV DVR. Let's say they were the same price, $5.99 with roughly the same functionality. When CSR asks this uneducated consumer which one they'd like, what percentage says TiVo? My guess would be 95% -- simply based on the strength and awareness of the TiVo brand. Does anyone disagree with this? (Again, this is not a comparison of the HR10 vs HR20. This is simply a brand vs generic comparison for the uneducated consumer.)

Now let's move to example 2: the costs are different. Let's say TiVo is $2/month more. Now what percentage picks TiVo? Let's say 8%. This is simply a wild guess. But $2 in the grand scheme of a $75-100 monthly bill is fairly small. There will be a segment of uneducated consumers that have heard about TiVo, wished they had it and really want to say they own the brand and the cool stuff it allegedly does. I don't work for either of the companies but trust me, they know the answer to the percent question. For now, play along, let's say it's 8%.

Now let's move to example 3: the costs are different but the consumer IS educated -- in other words, current DirecTiVo consumer (both SD and HD.) Of course, there are many segmentations of this group -- the Kool-Aid drinkers, medium loyalty consumers, and relatively low loyalty. Same question, if they have choice to buy at $2/month more, what percentage opts for TiVo? Let's say 15%.

The exact percentages here are not important. The only thing that's important is that there ARE percentages of consumers who will opt for the TiVo brand if they have the option, both educated/uneducated AND at same and different prices. The point is that there IS a value to the TiVo brand -- whether or not some people have used it yet or whether at same or slightly different prices.

Now let's add another example. Comcast has high-speed internet. They have VOIP. Now TiVo. They can bundle them in a very price-attractive way. Then they can advertise the fact they have REAL TiVo. Unless you REALLY hate the cable co or REALLY need the NFL package...you start to think about switching. In another year COX can do same. Perhaps in a couple more years, the big 5 or 6 cable cos have it.

On top of all of this, D* knows the following:

1) My DirecTiVo consumers are among my happiest, with the lowest churn
2) My DirecTiVo consumers are among my highest spend consumers/month
3) My SD DirecTiVo consumers will be migrating to HDTV over next 1-3 years. They open to be be poached when they're in the market again, this time for an HD DVR
4) TiVo owns intellectual property -- both with its functionality, user interface and coming functionality -- that makes it hard now (and hard in the future) for D* to compete with TiVo in the production of DVRs. This makes keeping its customers happy a harder chore. And puts them at some risk. A losing battle. (Again, please, this is not a condemnation of the HR20. I'm sure they'll get it running right soon.) 

5) While many/most of my DirecTiVo users may not have been aware of TiVo when they got their DVRs, they certainly are aware of TiVo now. D* actively marketed the brand name and helped it become a household name. And to at least a segment of the current user base, it is now a TiVo-loyal group.


Why else continue to improve the DirecTiVo functionality and send out press release?


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## BBURNES (Jun 23, 2004)

One other thing I meant to post. Actually was going to start another post but might as well keep it here...

I had a very interesting conversation with a fairly high-level D* employee last week. This person was a stranger but we had a very good chat while waiting for our flight in an airport.

I said to him: "I noticed that you guys just issued a press release last week about improved functionality coming soon and perhaps more interesting things in the future with the DirecTivos. That really surprised me since you've gone done a different path with your own DVRs. What's up?"

He said: "Well, yes, you're right. It is interesting. There are two things fueling it: First, Malone is a big TiVo fan. You know, we're transitioning ownership right now. He has TiVos at his house and wants to find more ways to keep things going with TiVo."

"Second thing: TiVo has patented functionality and interface. We have hard time keeping customers happy with our own versions."

I asked him. "If I want to see the 50 new HD channels coming in m4, I'm going to have to upgrade, right?"

He says, "Yes, you'll need the HR20."

Then I ask, "But if I wait for a while, do you think there'll be an m4 DirecTiVo coming? Should I wait?"

He says, "Don't know."

Off to our planes we went.

While most of this has been reported previously, thought you'd find the conversation interesting.......


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

BBBURNES - you make good points. I can't say I disagree with them. I am still not sure about the brand awareness of Tivo as a brand to the general population. They know the term Tivo, but I don't think they really care about the brand. They just want to be able to say they have a "Tivo" when they really mean a DVR.

As far as Lexus, yes, most people would want that because it also comes with prestige, image and incredible service. Most people are somewhat educated about cars. But when it comes to computers and technology, they tend to get all confused with the jargon and aren't sure what it really means when people throw out the terms. It's not like they see Tivo's driving down the street every day. If they haven't actually seen one in person, they don't really know what it is.



BBURNES said:


> Why else continue to improve the DirecTiVo functionality and send out press release?


This is what I find most interesting about it all. They announced this very early. DirecTV usually waits until the last minute to make announcements like this. It seems to me this is a pre-emptive strike for something. For what, I don't know.

And your conversation at the airport is actually very interesting. It's the same things we have said here and heard rumors of, but to actually hear someone at D* say it is even more interesting. I'll go on record as saying that I won't be surprised if D* does come out with an MPEG4 HD D*Tivo. I would gladly welcome another Tivo back in to my home.

Bryan


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## BGLeduc (Aug 26, 2003)

Being a skeptic, I consider the early announcement to be nothing more than a marketing play to raise hope that maybe D* will find a way to offer an MPEG 4 Tivo. 

I assume you all saw that there was even a Yellow Star download announcing it? Four months out is a long time to wait for a bunch of marginal new features. 

I think it has more to do with trying to stem the exodus of Tivo user's that just do not have any interest in a non-Tivo DVR solution. By the time the update takes place, a lot of the new HD content will be available, and I bet they are banking on most users concluding that content is in fact king, and maybe they will decide to try the D* DVR to get the new HD channels. 

That's not going to happen in our household with three dedicated Tivo fans, but we will stick it out and see what happens, rather than jump immediately to Comcast. But if/when all HD content is on the new sats, there will have to be a Tivo option, or we will move on to a service that offers one. 

Brian


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## ejg25 (Feb 10, 2004)

bacevedo said:


> The reason DirecTV did so well with the original DTivos is because they were actually cheaper than their standalone brothers (besides being integrated). Yes a few of us (me included) bought them because they were a Tivo, but I know a whole bunch of people who got them because they were cheap and had no clue what Tivo meant. They just knew they could record their shows.
> 
> People will choose the cheapest option, regardless of brand name. One has to only look at the success of Walmart and generic branded products to see that.
> 
> ...


I disagree with many different points here. Brands do matter, as indicated by the success of too many brands to name here. Why is everyone not buying generic brand everything, and why are there any stores other than Walmart?

As to the blanket assertion that consumers seek the cheapest option rather than the quality option, why does Apple continue to succeed with the iPod, and why has it held on to its niche for several decades even though it puts out a more expensive product? Because of the quality and features of the products, which many consumers are willing to pay for.

Also, not only did I opt for the DirecTiVo box because it was a TiVo... I chose _DirecTV_ because it was the satellite provider that offered TiVo.

The assertion that the older generation which makes satellite purchasing decisions doesn't care about brands and has no brand recognition is severely dated. The top tier of the generation making these decisions (I'm assuming you meant parents and heads of household) consists of Baby Boomers, contemporaries of America's advertising and consumer booms. The youngest half is Generation X.

Old people aren't what they used to be.

I was excited and pleased to see that announcement on my TiVo. I think it does suggest that DirecTV and TiVo have renewed their relationship in a beneficial way and that new DirecTiVo models will come in the future. Which is good news, because if my DirecTiVo breaks, I am decidedly not going to be replacing it with a generic DVR.


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## BBURNES (Jun 23, 2004)

BGLeduc,

Perhaps you're right. Maybe it is a marketing ploy. It could buy them some time for further migration to the HR20 and time to get the sats operational and content deployed.

But raising expectations like this is a dangerous game. If a new TiVo solution is not in the cards, there may be a lot of angry consumers. While people may not like D*, they are not stupid about this issue. They're very aware of what a release like this does in the marketplace. If D* really did not intend a renewed relationship with TiVo, they would not have issued this release. It is already a sensitive issue. Too dangerous to pour gas on it.

Not only was a press release issued (and expectations raised,) but they also included the language, "...In addition, DIRECTV and TiVo will continue to explore ways to bring future enhancements..." This raises expectations even further.

If I were betting, I'd bet the following:

1) Malone is pushing for closer relationship
2) Discussions are ongoing between the companies
3) They've agreed to, at minimum, continue to upgrade feature-set for DirecTiVos
4) More is being discussed but negotiations aren't complete 

(or)

5) Negotiations are more/less complete but can't announce at current time due to Comcast's impending launch of ComTiVo

Bryan,

Thanks for your comments. I definitely agree with you that uneducated consumers know less about TiVo (and DVRs in general) than they do about cars. But my experience in talking to uneducated consumers -- while not scientific research -- is that they don't know the difference, but DO understand that there is some cool difference and they would like to own the real thing. There is a kind of sheepish "...I got the thing the cable company sent." They aren't embarassed. But they know they don't have the thing everybody talks about. They do understand there is a real product called TiVo (besides the generic term TiVo people use as a verb to "record.") and they don't have it.

It would be analogous to mp3 players and the iPod. Everyone talks about their iPods. But a given consumer doesn't own one, doesn't own any kind of mp3 player. Not really familiar with the technology. But when someone gives them a generic mp3 player as a gift, they're quietly disappointed it wasn't an iPod. Never used either player. But would rather own the brand iPod. 

Perhaps the analogy isn't perfectly analogous. But I believe there is a value in the name and that -- even for the uneducated -- they'd rather have TiVo than a generic.


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

I don't think I made myself clear - I do know that brands matter. But only to people who can afford the brand to begin with. Some people would prefer to have the brand, but if they can't afford it, they can't afford it. I agree with all of your points BBURNES and ejg25.

If D* brought back the Tivos and you could get them for about the same price as the HR20, I am sure the Tivo would outsell it. Or would it? Depends on the features you are looking for.

Now don't get me wrong - I am a Tivo fan - I love my Tivo. But I finally had to stop correcting everyone around me who claimed they had a Tivo when they didn't, because they all looked at me like I was a Tivo snob. It just wasn't worth it anymore. To them, a DVR was a DVR. And they aren't with D* and they had options to buy a stand alone Tivo. Now, when I did probe further and asked if they really had a Tivo, they all said "Well, no, it's not a TIVO, but it does the same thing." So while they did know they really didn't have one, they all brushed it off as not that big of a deal. Why didn't they have one? Because the free one was good enough. If the Tivo was free, you bet they would have one. But that's not the world we live in today, and that's a problem for Tivo. We'll see what happens when the Comcast thing comes to fruition. If D* doesn't do one and Cox in my area (Chandler, AZ) does, I will take a serious look if they can match the HD content that D* has.

I know this article is a couple of years old and was talked about here on the forums, but it makes my point. Another good article that talks about the strong brand for Tivo, but they still haven't made a profit. And finally here Tivo themselves talk about how to get around this problem. What Tivo really needs to do is have TV commercials that compare their DVR to the competition - then people will get it.

One last question. If the Tivo brand is such a big deal, why haven't they made a profit yet? Why did Microsoft (ultimate brand in most consumer eyes) bail on the Ultimate TV. What happend to Replay? Could it be that in the DVR market, brand doesn't really matter, but instead, price and content do? I mean, really, what we want to do is WATCH TV, not play with another computer.

Bryan


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## MisterEd (Jun 6, 2001)

I just can't imagine why they would be announcing a software upgrade due AT LEAST 4 months from now (and we all know how innacurate their timetables are so maybe 6 months if we're lucky) for a device which ALLEGEDLY will become a door-stop shortly after the upgrade is made. I could understand if it were to just fix some serious issues, but to add new features .... something is up ... I'd just like to know what it is.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

I keep reading this thread and have been wanting to ask this question.

What difference does it make if I can't watch the 100 channels I want to watch?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Just as few points.



BBURNES said:


> Let's say tomorrow, D* offered 2 options: DirecTiVo and DirecTV DVR. Let's say they were the same price, $5.99 with roughly the same functionality. When CSR asks this uneducated consumer which one they'd like, what percentage says TiVo? My guess would be 95% -- simply based on the strength and awareness of the TiVo brand.


Perhaps, but the point is moot if they aren't going to offer the choices (which I don't think they will). I still don't understand why people can't get it through their heads that DirecTV developed their own DVR for a reason. And it wasn't to offer a 'choice'. And certainly not this late in the game.



BBURNES said:


> On top of all of this, D* knows the following:
> 
> 1) My DirecTiVo consumers are among my happiest, with the lowest churn
> 2) My DirecTiVo consumers are among my highest spend consumers/month


Just curious as to where you get these 'facts'.



BBURNES said:


> Why else continue to improve the DirecTiVo functionality and send out press release?


Simple, it was already in the works long ago and as others mentioned to consolidate the code for support purposes. DirecTV has a contract with Tivo, so they might as well get their money's worth and also fix the bugs they introduced with the last update.


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## amoneys2k (Nov 2, 2006)

I noticed a message on my HR10-250 where the ads/showcase type stuff usually shows up. It was titled "Enhanced TiVo features coming!" I won't bother typing out the entire message, but it mentioned the remote scheduling, overlap protection, and recently deleted folders. Like the press release, it mentioned that the update is only for the Series 2 TiVos, but unlike the press release it specifically mentioned that it will not work on the Sony SAT-T60, Philips DSR6000R, and Huges GXCEBOT. The HR10-250 wasn't mentioned specifically either way, so hopefully it'll be coming our way. The HR10-250 is considered a Series 2, right?


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

amoneys2k said:


> .... The HR10-250 wasn't mentioned specifically either way, so hopefully it'll be coming our way. The HR10-250 is considered a Series 2, right?


Yes. But the HR10-250 does have a different software base, so we expect to see it updated after the standard definition DirecTV/Tivo DVRs.


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## ejg25 (Feb 10, 2004)

bacevedo said:


> I don't think I made myself clear - I do know that brands matter. But only to people who can afford the brand to begin with. Some people would prefer to have the brand, but if they can't afford it, they can't afford it.


That's true. But we're talking about a subset of people who have enough money (and, likely, gadget friendliness) to have satellite TV. That's why it seems to me that DirecTV and TiVo are aimed at the same market and make good complements for each other.

I'm most interested in the remote scheduling  I've wanted that for a long time. The recently deleted folder will likely only be useful in the situation others mention: other people wanting to see something you've already deleted.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

what rules go along with deleted folder? is it like a recycling bin that needs emptied or like suggestions that will just keep filling until HD is full?


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I about leapt out of my seat when I saw Bburns quote about Malone being a big Tivo fan. 
That's the missing link I've been waiting for. There's no question it would be in mutual interest of both companies to work out an agreement - if the owner really wanted to.
Malone loves Tivo and 2 1/5 million directv tivo users will be migrating to HD over the next 3 years. 
For the first time I believe a deal will be(or has been)worked out.


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## llarch (May 7, 2004)

Cudahy said:


> I about leapt out of my seat when I saw Bburns quote about Malone being a big Tivo fan.
> That's the missing link I've been waiting for. There's no question it would be in mutual interest of both companies to work out an agreement - if the owner really wanted to.
> Malone loves Tivo and 2 1/5 million directv tivo users will be migrating to HD over the next 3 years.
> For the first time I believe a deal will be(or has been)worked out.


I agree. And think about this, it is almost bizarre that they would be coming out with an update that will not only work for the SD TiVo's, but also the HR10's, so many years after the product (HR10) was released and after the product has essentially been discontinued. Unless the update is a kind of bridge or olive branch to the TiVo crowd as they eventually get to the release of an Mpeg4 HD TiVo. May be wishful thinking, but if someone said a couple months ago TiVo and DTV would be coming out with a *feature* update for the HR10, most people would have said, "no way." And if the Malone as TiVo fan is true, as strange as some might think, that will also make a big difference. One last thing to think about for those who doubt an Mpeg4 HD TiVo will come, remember all those posts on this board by all those who said the HR10 would never get the 6.3 update?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> Just as few points.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

RS4 said:


> both of those items have been mentioned during investor conference calls several times.


Even if true (that they said it), it is misleading. Since Tivo was their only DVR (yes I know there are still some UTVs out there) to get long term statistics on, it could easily be interpreted as DVR users in general have less churn and higher spending. Without another DVR unit to compare figures to, it's a meaningless statement. Now, if after a year, they can still make that statement with their own DVR out there, then those statements might hold some water. But by then most HR10s will be just useful as doorstops and boat anchors.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Mark Lopez said:


> . But by then most HR10s will be just useful as doorstops and boat anchors.


i hadn't heard about the turning off of SD mpeg2 and OTA...when will this occur and my beloved hdtivo become a doorstop ( i never understood that term since it would get in the way of my ingress and egress, but i digress) 

I had to add this statement because my initial reason for even getting a free HDtivo wasn't even HD (didnt even have hdtv or antenna), i just needed more tuners and space.


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## taker (Sep 20, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Completely ignorant post.
> 
> Lets see here, I've been doing highspeed networks and Advance Research Technologies for 20 years .. Real VOD to your house when you request it and you start watching it right away...
> 
> ...


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

so what


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