# Game of Thrones: Season Four & (all) Book Discussion ** spoilers **



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

A place to discuss Season Four, and any & all of the books. Spoilers allowed. We can discuss how the books compare to the TV series, changes between them, when we expect to see events from the books, or whatever.

It's very difficult to limit this to only Book Three, as the showrunners have stated they are going to start taking scenes from Books 4 & 5 and incorporating them into the TV series this season, in an effort to make the series flow better than the books. Therefore, all the books are open for discussion here.

As per the general agreement reached previously, the individual TV episode threads are off-limits to book discussion.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Personally I think we all know that things are dicey from here on out as far as spoiler avoidance is concerned. The book readers who are not caught up are going to be spoiled by the show regardless. Discussing differences should not be too big a deal as long as there is no major reveal here that was not first shown in the show. 

Agree?


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## jollygrunt777 (Feb 28, 2012)

Shaunnick said:


> Discussing differences should not be too big a deal as long as there is no major reveal here that was not first shown in the show.
> 
> Agree?


I disagree.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Seems to me that if you haven't read all the books and aren't caught up to date on the TV show, this might not be the thread for you.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> Seems to me that if you haven't read all the books and aren't caught up to date on the TV show, this might not be the thread for you.


My point exactly. If you have only read through book three, and this show will be showing some events from both books 4 and 5, you're going to be spoiled anyway.

I am not saying that folks should come in here and openly discuss the events of books four and five, but if the show has something from one of those books that is discussion worthy, then why avoid that particular piece? Its nonsense.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

It had almost faded from memory.

Almost.

But when the theme song for this show started playing, my mind raced back to that awesome time last fall. That time when South Park forever changed the way I'll listen to that tune. 

&#9835; Weiner Weiner, Floppy Weiner &#9835;


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## jollygrunt777 (Feb 28, 2012)

I want to hear any and all theories and spoilers whether, or not, they've been shown on the TV show.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

jollygrunt777 said:


> I want to hear any and all theories and spoilers whether, or not, they've been shown on the TV show.


Hence, this thread. A place to discuss anything GoT related, books & series. The TV episodes have a weekly thread, but this is where we can discuss how they burned a dire wolf skin when they melted down ICE, but was it in the books? Actually, I don't remember them melting down ICE in the books at all, but my memory ain't what it never was.

I vaguely recall the books talking about how Valyrian swords can be reworked, but not made anew. That the skill is lost in time. Not sure where melting a sword and recasting falls in this pantheon.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

astrohip said:


> Hence, this thread. A place to discuss anything GoT related, books & series. The TV episodes have a weekly thread, but this is where we can discuss how they burned a dire wolf skin when they melted down ICE, but was it in the books? Actually, I don't remember them melting down ICE in the books at all, but my memory ain't what it never was.
> 
> I vaguely recall the books talking about how Valyrian swords can be reworked, but not made anew. That the skill is lost in time. Not sure where melting a sword and recasting falls in this pantheon.


Yes, Tywin melted down Ice and had two swords created from it just as in the show. One was for Jaime and the other for Joffrey as a wedding gift.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Ice was recast into a pair of swords in the book, but it was described after the fact. Tywin doesn't have POV chapters, so there wasn't any description of it happening.


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## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm not sure whether or not to chime in on the episode thread and really complain that the new Daarios is NOT swarmy enough and too pretty. Most people are happy with the recast. The new Daarios doesn't even have a gold tooth much less a three pronged beard dyed in blue.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

ozzman73 said:


> I'm not sure whether or not to chime in on the episode thread and really complain that the new Daarios is NOT swarmy enough and too pretty. Most people are happy with the recast. The new Daarios doesn't even have a gold tooth much less a three pronged beard dyed in blue.


Yes, that's true. The original actor just annoyed the hell out of me, though.


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

Re: Daario - I agree with the "not swarmy enough" thought. He's supposed to be so flamboyant and pompous and whatever... this new character definitely seems rather tame and boring. If Dany's going to fall for him, he at least should be way WAY beyond ordinary.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

One major change already, IIRC, in the book the Hound killed Polliver, not Arya. Although I have to admit that seeing Arya do it made me smile a little (although her somewhat creepy smile almost made me stop smiling).


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## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

I don't mind changes from the books. IMO they are needed and so far, better. I like how Shae looked betrayed by Tyrion and at least it seems to be more plausible her eventual betrayal


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't mind the changes either. I just like pointing them out.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

ozzman73 said:


> I don't mind changes from the books. IMO they are needed and so far, better. I like how Shae looked betrayed by Tyrion and at least it seems to be more plausible her eventual betrayal


No kidding. I never got the impression that she truly loved him in the books, just that she enjoyed what he provided. The betrayal by her was more painful for Tyrion because, IMO, _he_ fell in love with her.

In the show, I actually believe she is truly in love with him. When he held Sansa's hand and Shae saw that, you knew Tyrion was about to have a bad night.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Sooooooooooo

Did anyone else go ahead and watch next week's preview? I think, if all the scenes I saw were accurate to E2, that we will see the other wedding we have been waiting for. Anyone else who saw the preview concur?


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I sure do love a good wedding.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I didn't watch the previews, but if Joff's wedding is next week there will much rejoicing among the non-book reader population.

They've got a lot of ground to cover this season. I'm glad they're moving it right along. I don't think anyone will be too surprised at Joff's fate, but I predict the next big death will be a shocker to many.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Between the preview, timing of where it took place in the books, and the fact that GRRM is credited with next weeks episode, I'm expecting the much rejoicing moment next week.


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## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

Much rejoicing. People are going to be confused by the time the second big death happens. My wife keeps asking me for spoilers, but I am a good husband and refuse. I only point out important things that happen and give some context based on stuff that has already happened. With so many characters, so many inter-relationships and an extensive timeline, only the truly obsessed can keep up with character motivations and growth.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Someone in the other thread was speculating on what The queen of Thorns will say when she sees Sansa's new necklace. That reminded me of where they're going with that necklace. It seems like it was much later in the books when we found this stuff out, so I won't say any more. 

Funny how the poster latched onto it's importance when I'm pretty sure he's not a book reader. And I had almost forgotten even though I've read all the books twice.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> Sooooooooooo
> 
> Did anyone else go ahead and watch next week's preview? I think, if all the scenes I saw were accurate to E2, that we will see the other wedding we have been waiting for. Anyone else who saw the preview concur?


Maybe not so much...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/07/game-of-thrones-season-4_n_5104139.html



> Beyond the change to Polliver's death, Williams told EW that much of Season 4 will deviate from Martin's writing as well. "This year there's a few key plot twists and the way [the show's] writers go about it is different than the books," she said. "I think fans of the books will be a little confused, which I think is fantastic because it keeps it interesting for everyone."


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Polliver's death wasn't that much different. Arya killed him with Needle in the book, too, only without any exposition. What was significantly different is The Hound wasn't grievously wounded in the fight.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

That makes it seem like she didn't kill anyone in that scene in the book, but she killed both the squire boy and The Tickler while quoting The Tickler, &#8220;Is there gold hidden in the village?&#8221;, etc. 

The bigger change is that Sandor wasn't severely wounded like he was in the book.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Yeah, my mistake. The Hound kills Polliver and Arya does The Tickler and the squire.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

So maybe we won't see The Hound get wounded at all and they'll just have Arya somehow escape him and make her way to Saltpans.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Since this is a spoiler thread... George RR Martin has, in fact, said that episode 2 is Joffreys wedding. I've seen it a couple of places. No details on what events may or may not transpire there, but the wedding is most definitely confirmed for episode 2. And Martin wrote it.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Since this is a spoiler thread... George RR Martin has, in fact, said that episode 2 is Joffreys wedding. I've seen it a couple of places. No details on what events may or may not transpire there, but the wedding is most definitely confirmed for episode 2. And Martin wrote it.


:up:


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Cross-post from the show thread.

HBO renewed GoT for seasons 5 AND 6 today in an unusual move. HBO almost never renews for more than 1 season at a time.

Since this, unlike the other, is a spoiler thread, it's safe to link to George RR Martins journal discussing this.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/364503.html


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Anyone else read the recent sample chapter form "The Winds of Winter?"


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> Anyone else read the recent sample chapter form "The Winds of Winter?"


I did. It was interesting, but I think I'll try to resist the temptation to read more if it becomes available.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I didn't. I want to wait and read the whole book. I really don't want to start reading it and go "Wait.. this sounds familiar... did I read this already?"


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> The bigger change is that Sandor wasn't severely wounded like he was in the book.


I kept thinking, "Isn't this where the Hound gets that bad wound that almost kills him?" I guess they're going in a different direction.



Ereth said:


> Since this is a spoiler thread... George RR Martin has, in fact, said that episode 2 is Joffreys wedding. I've seen it a couple of places. No details on what events may or may not transpire there, but the wedding is most definitely confirmed for episode 2. And Martin wrote it.


Wow, they're not wasting any time getting to the first big event of the season.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Wow, they're not wasting any time getting to the first big event of the season.


They've got a lot of big events to cover this season. 

The episode is titled "The Lion and The Rose", which of course, represents the sigils of House Lannister and House Tyrell, and pretty much confirms that this ep will have the wedding.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Remind me the significance of Sansa's necklace? I don't recall that from the books.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

dtivouser said:


> Remind me the significance of Sansa's necklace? I don't recall that from the books.


In the book, it was a hair net. One of the jewels was poison.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

And when we eventually found out where it actually came from, we knew who killed Joffrey--which I stupidly didn't see coming at the time.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I am going to post this here.



Shaunnick said:


> There were two things that stuck out. Both are what I think future visions. One showed the Iron throne, in its hall with the roof missing and snow falling inside.
> 
> The other showed King's Landing, sunny and warm, with a dragon's shadow flying across the city.
> 
> ...


I remember when I read Dany's visions she had in the house of the undying how cool I thought it was and what she saw. They cut out a lot of that in the show. I don't remember as much from Bran's vision in the books, especially about seeing the Iron throne covered in snow. Since GRRM wrote this episode I am curious why he chose to add those visions.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

No pig & dog?


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

Anubys' quote in the latest episode thread caught my attention. Speaking of Lady Olena he said " Her granddaughter was about to become the queen. it's all about power. It's Game of Thrones. Just when the Tyrells are about to capture the throne and her children will become heirs, they kill their meal ticket? did any of the Tyrells ever give any indication that Margery needed help taming the monster?

The only person less likely to have killed Joffrey is Joffrey "

I did think they provided a few scenes foreshadowing her involvement such as when she was talking with Sansa and messing with her hair and necklace. Things are certainly moving at a faster pace than in previous seasons.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rickvz said:


> I did think they provided a few scenes foreshadowing her involvement such as when she was talking with Sansa and messing with her hair and necklace. Things are certainly moving at a faster pace than in previous seasons.


It was more than foreshadowing. If you watch carefully, you can actually see her remove one of the gems from the necklace, then see the empty setting, then hear something clink when she walks past the front of the table at Joffrey's place. I did not see anyone actually put anything in Joffrey's wine, so I guess the clink was supposed to be her putting it into that decanter that Tyrion later used to refill Joffrey's cup.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I noticed the empty setting, but missed the "clink". Watching it again, in slo-mo, you can see her right arm reach out and then trail behind her slightly.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

A few observations.
1. I vaguely remember (been a long time since I read book 3) - didn't Bronn leave Tyron a while before time of Purple wedding? I guess they're setting him up as leaving Tyrion at a much more inopportune time.
2. Did Shae leave on the ship in the book? Before ending up with Tywin? Or did Bronn lie to Tyrion in the show?

The ending, the standoff between Joffery and Tyrion was really well done - you could cut tension with a knife.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

secondclaw said:


> A few observations.
> 1. I vaguely remember (been a long time since I read book 3) - didn't Bronn leave Tyron a while before time of Purple wedding?


IIRC, he left Tyrion's employment after the Blackwater when he became Ser Bronn (which hasn't happened on the show), but was still around. They parted ways after Tyrion asked him to be his champion.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

secondclaw said:


> A few observations.
> 1. I vaguely remember (been a long time since I read book 3) - didn't Bronn leave Tyron a while before time of Purple wedding? I guess they're setting him up as leaving Tyrion at a much more inopportune time.
> 2. Did Shae leave on the ship in the book? Before ending up with Tywin? Or did Bronn lie to Tyrion in the show?
> 
> The ending, the standoff between Joffery and Tyrion was really well done - you could cut tension with a knife.


It's also been a long time, but what I remember...

1) I don't remember much of Bronn after Tyrion, other than he went to work for someone else. Something about whoever pays him the most?

1b) I'm pretty sure it was Syr Ilyn who taught Jaime how to leftie, as I remember he could only grunt and not talk. But the person who plays Syr Ilyn is either dying or dead IRL (cancer), so they are eliminating that character from the TV series.

2) I don't think Shae ever left, and I don't recall it even being hinted at. I think this is a different twist than the books.

As always, my memory may be 180 off.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I agree with your memory of Shae. I really hope they don't change the way it plays out with Tywin.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

astrohip said:


> It's also been a long time, but what I remember...
> 
> 1) I don't remember much of Bronn after Tyrion, other than he went to work for someone else. Something about whoever pays him the most?
> 
> ...


I think they are giving Shae a reason to do what she did in the books. Instead of her being a whore who used Tyrion, she is now a woman scorned. How best to hurt Tyrion? Bang his dad.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

kaszeta said:


> IIRC, he left Tyrion's employment after the Blackwater when he became Ser Bronn (which hasn't happened on the show), but was still around. They parted ways after Tyrion asked him to be his champion.


Last week I think Bronn told Oberon he was a knight. I just assumed they wanted him to work with Jamie rather than a man who can't speak any dialogue. More entertaining.



Shaunnick said:


> I think they are giving Shae a reason to do what she did in the books. Instead of her being a whore who used Tyrion, she is now a woman scorned. How best to hurt Tyrion? Bang his dad.


Yeah, in the books they never really explained why she was with Tywin, did they? Whether he threatened her or she was just a whore who slept around. It's still possible that they went and got her off the boat after Bronn left. He didn't say that the boat had sailed, did he?

Dontos hadn't said anything to Sansa about getting her out before this, had he? I'm surprised she would just go with him without thinking about it at all. It could have looked like she put the poison in the cup when she got it from under the table for Tyrion. It was nice to see them working together for once--too late.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Didn't Bronn give less than a clear answer when Tyrion asked if Shae was on the boat and it had sailed?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

In the book, Tyrion had Pod bring Bronn to the cell. By the time he came, he was set to marry Lollys and had no desire or reason to help Tyrion. 

On the show, I'm guessing Bronn turned Shae over to Cersei rather than put her on the boat. Cersei will then compel her to testify against Tyrion.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Tommen looked much older than I had pictured him. In the books he was a child and easily "handled." He looks too old here. No more than we've seen of him, changing the actor wouldn't be a problem. 

In the interview with the showrunners, they said that you can't have a man--even a dwarf--ride a pig because it's unfair to the pig. Were any of the dwarfs at the wedding female? I wonder if we'll see any of them again.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

cherry ghost said:


> In the book, Tyrion had Pod bring Bronn to the cell. By the time he came, he was set to marry Lollys and had no desire or reason to help Tyrion.
> 
> On the show, I'm guessing Bronn turned Shae over to Cersei rather than put her on the boat. Cersei will then compel her to testify against Tyrion.


Bronn came by Tyrion's cell long after he already left his employ - and only came back at Tyrion's begging / urging (or at least that's how I remember it). And I agree - it may very well be that Bronn got rewarded nicely for not getting Shae to the boat.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> In the interview with the showrunners, they said that you can't have a man--even a dwarf--ride a pig because it's unfair to the pig. Were any of the dwarfs at the wedding female? I wonder if we'll see any of them again.


Makes you wonder if any of the Penny story will make it to screen?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

astrohip said:


> Makes you wonder if any of the Penny story will make it to screen?


I'm sure they can come up with several possible performances involving a pig and a dwarf that do not involve the pig being ridden.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

Perhaps they're dropping Penny storyline. I wasn't really fond of it personally, though I wasn't sure where that story was heading.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I wouldn't mind dropping that whole story


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## quikah (Dec 16, 2006)

So far I am not liking the changes to Bran's story. Once they got past the wall in the books it seemed FAR more dangerous for them. so far the TV version just seems like a stroll in the woods. Very odd considering the ominous opening scene to the series with the wights/WW. The exclusion of Coldhands (another unhappy point) limits what they can do in the show IMO as he was their protector and guide in the books.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I assumed they just hadn't met Cold Hands yet, and weren't really that far past the wall. I hope he's not written out, although I don't remember that they really explained him very well in the book.

Bran was really rude snatching the little food they had away from Meara. Still a little wolfish.....


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

quikah said:


> The exclusion of Coldhands (another unhappy point) limits what they can do in the show IMO as he was their protector and guide in the books.


Is Coldhands excluded? I know they cut a lot of material of him (Sam's southward voyage), but I thought we saw him in the Season 4 preview footage.


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## quikah (Dec 16, 2006)

kaszeta said:


> Is Coldhands excluded? I know they cut a lot of material of him (Sam's southward voyage), but I thought we saw him in the Season 4 preview footage.


no idea, but seems like it so far. I am guessing that they will meet up with one of the Children of the Forest and go into their cave soon. Bran's story is very limited, I can't imagine it would take much to show much of what has been written so far. They would need to pull more from the later story (book 6+). I might be being overly pessimistic about this storyline.

I could see them stretching it out if they introduced Coldhands now (could do several episodes dodging WW, build up mystery of who CH is, etc.), so hopefully they will.

One other tidbit I am loving, I don't think I have seen anyone mention Littlefinger WRT to the last TV episode in the various non-book reader threads across the internet.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

We might get very little of Bran this season since it will have to come from book 5. It wouldn't surprise me if they leave out Coldhands altogether or wait until next season.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

quikah said:


> One other tidbit I am loving, I don't think I have seen anyone mention Littlefinger WRT to the last TV episode in the various non-book reader threads across the internet.


Of course not, he wasn't even in the last episode, so there was no clink when he passed the king's table. 

I'm pretty tired of the theories simply because if they follow the books they could be theorizing for the next season and half. Ugg.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

It occurred to me that there is another change from the books, in that Bolton found out pretty early on that Bran and Rickon are alive. Unless I missed it in the books (or just forgot), what's the implication then? Anyone that read the books recently - when did he find out? Or did he? If I remember correctly Robb's father-in-law - Wylis Manderly - (role which doesn't exist in the show I suppose) was the one that was scheming with Sir Davos to find the boys, but I was under impression nobody else knew.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I was asked to post this in this thread.

Something I noticed upon watching the poisoning scene again... 

Tyrion fills Joffreys cup from the carafe in front of the Lannisters. Joffrey drinks from it and is unharmed. 

Joffrey hands it to Margary who sets it down behind her, on the Tryell table. We all got that.

But when watching it again, I noticed the when Joffrey commands Tyrion to get it for him again, he does NOT refill it. He simply picks it up and hands it back to Joffrey. It's the same wine he drank moments earlier, unharmed.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> But when watching it again, I noticed the when Joffrey commands Tyrion to get it for him again, he does NOT refill it. He simply picks it up and hands it back to Joffrey. It's the same wine he drank moments earlier, unharmed.


Unless Margaery put poison in it while she was handling it. There were also several people serving pie who may have walked past the cup, either having the opportunity to drop something in, or blocking the view of others while someone else slipped something into the cup.

I'm not sure why you could not post that in the episode thread.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

How close was it to Olena when Margaery sat it down? 

If I remember right, in the books (1-5) they never mentioned Margaery being involved in this plot--which doesn't mean she wasn't or that it won't be revealed later that she was. 

Thanks for posting Ereth.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

stellie93 said:


> How close was it to Olena when Margaery sat it down?


Olenna was probably the closest person to the cup (other than the Kingsguard). But it was not within her reach unless she moved towards it while off camera (or unless she is really exceptional at the drinking game where you try to throw a coin into a cup).





































Notice how Tyrion eyes Olenna as he picks up the cup. And whenever Olenna is on screen, she is staring at Tyrion or the cup.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Unless Margaery put poison in it while she was handling it. There were also several people serving pie who may have walked past the cup, either having the opportunity to drop something in, or blocking the view of others while someone else slipped something into the cup.
> 
> I'm not sure why you could not post that in the episode thread.


Because it's tainted knowledge. I caught it in the show, but I know from the book how the poisoning was done.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> Because it's tainted knowledge. I caught it in the show, but I know from the book how the poisoning was done.


But it was not necessarily done the same way in the show.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I know, but if a book reader posts something, the non-book readers assume it's a hint.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I posted this in the other thread for speculation, but does anyone remember them saying in the books that Dorne was the only Kingdom not to fall to the Targarians? I know there was some intermarriage there, but that was generations later.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I don't remember this from the books ... but they're doing quiet a departure from the books already, all in one episode. Gilly in Mole's Town, Hound's not wounded - at least not yet. And - I don't really remember if Tywin ever tried to get Red Viper to be one of the judges. I also vaguely remember there not be 100 men to guard the Wall - much less.

I was not looking forward to Dany coming to Meereen, knowing what cluster*#@$ that turns into, but I guess we're here. Hopefully script writers are better than JRRM at handling this part.



stellie93 said:


> I posted this in the other thread for speculation, but does anyone remember them saying in the books that Dorne was the only Kingdom not to fall to the Targarians? I know there was some intermarriage there, but that was generations later.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

I'm a little surprised nobody has mentioned yet how different the Jaime/Cersei scene was in the show vs the book. Lots of controversy about the way they handled it in the show. Martin even addressed it on his blog.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/367116.html?thread=19030284#t19030284

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

Frankly I'm puzzled at that scene. In the books Jaime was slowly being built up to be pretty honorable, within Lannister limits of course. So I'm going to guess the show writers have a different path for him, and maybe they're trying to get Cercei to become more sympathetic (she definitely would have mute screen time going forward anyway).


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

That scene really annoyed me. I liked Jaime's growth in the books and I think that took away from it. One of the showrunners didn't even see it as a rape and said something like "it was consensual by the end", which is an awful comment.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

A good description of what the director was trying to achieve:
Breaking Down Jaime and Cerseis Controversial Sex Scene With Last Nights Game of Thrones Director

Do you think he did?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jehma said:


> That scene really annoyed me. I liked Jaime's growth in the books and I think that took away from it. One of the showrunners didn't even see it as a rape and said something like "it was consensual by the end", which is an awful comment.


Yeah, with a little tweaking that scene could have been a powerful indictment and reminder of how twisted and sick these characters are, despite whatever personal growth they (well, one of "they") may have shown. Instead, it just became a rape scene...and one that the show-makers seemed rather unaware of.


jehma said:


> A good description of what the director was trying to achieve:
> Breaking Down Jaime and Cersei's Controversial Sex Scene With Last Night's Game of Thrones Director
> 
> Do you think he did?


Short answer, no. It's interesting how sometimes what is in one's head doesn't really make it onto the screen...he seems to have taken his ideas too much for granted, not realizing that we needed to SEE it.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, with a little tweaking that scene could have been a powerful indictment and reminder of how twisted and sick these characters are, despite whatever personal growth they (well, one of "they") may have shown. Instead, it just became a rape scene...and one that the show-makers seemed rather unaware of.
> 
> Short answer, no. It's interesting how sometimes what is in one's head doesn't really make it onto the screen...he seems to have taken his ideas too much for granted, not realizing that we needed to SEE it.


I agree with you completely. If he had been able to get that across, it would have been a very strong scene. He made the "yes" too subtle and the "no" too overt, and it didn't come across that way at all.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I actually didn't focus on the "rape" scene too much--I had read the books and was expecting them to have sex. Cercie seemed pretty into it, and it never occurred to me to call it rape until I saw it here. I'm just anxious to get on to the part where Jamie realizes what a selfish witch she is, and it seemed like he was getting there, so I'm ok with whatever happened. She's rejected him ever since he came back--different from the books where he had just gotten back--and now she's all over him because she thinks he will kill Tyrion.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I saw it on the show first, then caught up to it in the book. It certainly seemed like rape to me on the show. The book seemed consensual, and made Jamie seem much better. Cersi, of course, is a witch either way.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

GRRM spoke of it on his blog. He points out that in the books we read it from Jaime's POV, so it's going to sound different than if it were from Cercei's POV. Maybe in his head it was right and consensual. Maybe in her head, not so much?

I remember it being more consensual when I read it, again, in Jaime's POV.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/367116.html?thread=19030284#t19030284


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Was it ever said in the books why Olenna poisoned Joffrey, especially then? If she'd have waited one night, Margery would have been queen and they would have had the iron throne.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Was it ever said in the books why Olenna poisoned Joffrey, especially then? If she'd have waited one night, Margery would have been queen and they would have had the iron throne.


No, Margaery would have been the ex-queen. Without an heir, she would have had exactly the same status after Joffrey's death as she had before the wedding.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Why still? It still doesn't make sense.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Why still? It still doesn't make sense.


Why still what? I guess I'm not sure what you're saying.

Marrying the king doesn't make you the kind of queen that Queen Elizabeth is. Margaery was never and would never be the ruling Queen. She would just be the King's wife (or widow). She would never have any power of her own.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Was it ever said in the books why Olenna poisoned Joffrey, especially then? If she'd have waited one night, Margery would have been queen and they would have had the iron throne.


It appears that Westeros follows the traditional English male primogeniture method of succession, so just by virtue of being married to the King and bearing the title of "Queen" does not mean that Mags would have become the ruler of the land once Joffrey died. She is simply a "royal consort" (much like Prince Phillip - the husband of Queen Elizabeth - is today). The throne passes to the king's heirs, and if there are none, succession rules go back up one generation (to Robert), and then passes to the next heir of Robert, which in this case is Tommen.

For a quick, witty summary, see CGP Grey:


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I wish English didn't use the same word for "Wife of a King" and "King (who happens to be female)." Considering how vastly different the two are, it's pretty distracting to use the same word.

But I'm glad I'm not the only one who can never get those &$^#ing YouTube tags straight.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Was it ever said in the books why Olenna poisoned Joffrey, especially then? If she'd have waited one night, Margery would have been queen and they would have had the iron throne.


Joffrey was a torturous monster who only derived pleasure from the pain of others. The only way Margaery would gain any more power would be by bearing Joffrey's heirs, and doing that would require putting up with his behaviour at least until she was pregnant (and probably until she gave birth, just in case).

As Olenna said, the Lannisters still need the alliance with the Tyrells and there's still another Baratheon/Lannister son in line for the throne who will need a wife.

As we saw with Ned and Catlyn, in this world, if the older brother dies before he can marry/have children, it's no big deal for the second son to take his place in the arranged marriage.

I don't know if it would change anything, but having Joffrey die before their wedding night would also guarantee that any children that might result from a marriage between Margaery and Tommen would certainly be Tommen's and not be Joffrey's. In the books, Tommen is much younger, so he won't be getting her pregnant any time soon, but on the show, he's young, but he's not that young.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I wonder how old Tommen is supposed to be on the show, and if he will be as easily manipulated as he was in the books--distracted with kittens and such.....

When I read the books, it seemed like a long time after Joffrey's murder when I learned that Olena was involved. Was I just stupid and missed the clues? (probably). It seems odd that it's so obvious here and everyone is suspicious of her.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why still what? I guess I'm not sure what you're saying.
> 
> Marrying the king doesn't make you the kind of queen that Queen Elizabeth is. Margaery was never and would never be the ruling Queen. She would just be the King's wife (or widow). She would never have any power of her own.


Why did Olena kill him? She seemed to have nothing to gain.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Why did Olena kill him?


It seems this question was already answered. Two reasons. One is that Joffrey's death spares Margaery from having to put up with him. Second is that she might expect Margaery to now marry Tommen and that would put Margaery in a position of more power than being married to Joffrey.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Since Margaery didn't consummate either of her marriages, she's still considered a maiden and an appropriate wife for Tommen, if they wanted to seal the political alliance between the Tyrells and the crown. If she'd had her wedding night with Joffrey, she wouldn't be.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

FWIW, very long interview w/GRRM in Rolling Stone

Among the Q&A:



> [Martin pauses for a moment.] You've read the books?
> 
> *Yes.*
> Who kills Joffrey?
> ...


I do find it strange that if the TV version wanted to have us reason she did it, that there wouldn't be the sloppy production details like having the goblet seem to sit well outside her reach.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But I'm glad I'm not the only one who can never get those &$^#ing YouTube tags straight.


I fixed it now, but the crazy thing is that I used the exact same tag yesterday, and it didn't work, but today it did.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

"Oathkeeper" S04E04 is certainly a departure from the books. Daenarys' story is drifting farther from the books, but I sort of expected that, since it needs some improvement from what Martin wrote (although I haven't seen any improvement yet, hopefully the show writers are working their way to something). I wonder what they are saving Mormont's betrayal exposure for?

But having Bran captured by Nightwatch Rebels at Craster's keep (with Jon leading an expedition to Craster's keep), and showing that Craster's baby boys were being transformed into White Walkers is quite different.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

dslunceford said:


> I do find it strange that if the TV version wanted to have us reason she did it, that there wouldn't be the sloppy production details like having the goblet seem to sit well outside her reach.


Now that we know -- in the show -- that Olenna did somehow get the poison from the necklace to Joffrey, it looks like the TV production was rather sloppy, since it does not appear that Olenna could have done it without Margaery's help. And the show just made it clear that Margaery did not help, or even know about it beforehand.

The only possibilities I can see are either that Olenna slipped the gem to one of the pie server's off-camera and then a pie server dropped poison into Joffrey's cup (again off-camera), or else Olenna is very good at tossing things into cups from a few yards away, and she tossed the poison into Joffrey's cup (off-camera) about the time everyone was looking at the pigeons coming out of the pie.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

She's off camera a really long time. You have no idea what she did in that time.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> She's off camera a really long time. You have no idea what she did in that time.


Actually, Olenna is not off camera for long during the time from when Margaery put Joffrey's cup on the table to when Joffrey drank from it and died. And most of the time she is off camera she is sitting in her chair. Since there is a guard right behind her and Joffrey's chair, it would look awfully suspicious if she jumped up, walked to Joffrey's cup, then zipped back to her chair and sat down again. And that is about all she would have had time to do, off-camera.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Actually, since I just watched that episode tonight with friends, she IS off camera for quite a long time.

Yes, we see her seated in her chair every time we see her, but there's quite a lot of time where we can't see her at all.

Your conception of her being a few yards away is the problem. While it's true that it's not directly in front of her, there's also nobody between her and it, and it's only slightly more than arms length away.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Here, I found an image that shows where Olenna is sitting. She's at the end of the table. Margaery set it down on the end of the table where she's sitting. Beside her is Mace Tyrell. No guards in the shot at all.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> Actually, since I just watched that episode tonight with friends, she IS off camera for quite a long time.
> 
> Yes, we see her seated in her chair every time we see her, but there's quite a lot of time where we can't see her at all.


Wrong again. She is only off camera for a few seconds at a time during the critical period, and the cup is 2 or 3 yards away, and there is a guard standing right behind the table (he is just about an inch off-screen in your image). All of which I already said.

And Margaery certainly did NOT sit the cup down on the end of Olenna's table. It is on the end of Margaery and Joffrey's table.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> Here, I found an image that shows where Olenna is sitting. She's at the end of the table. Margaery set it down on the end of the table where she's sitting. Beside her is Mace Tyrell. No guards in the shot at all.


PLEASE don't argue with him.

Please please please.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> PLEASE don't argue with him.


Argue with me if you like. Especially if I am wrong. But I am not wrong about this.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> PLEASE don't argue with him.
> 
> Please please please.


I'll add a few pleases on as well.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

heySkippy said:


> I'll add a few pleases on as well.


Another person who knows that I am right and Ereth is wrong!


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

OK so .... White Walker/Others scene in the latest HBO ep? Comments? Wonder how much GRRM signed off on that, or if Weiss/Benioff just brought a future book scene a little forward in time?

And Vargo Locke being on the Wall, and Snow going to potentially run into Bran at Crasters, really leaves open the possibility of significant divergence from the books for that plotline. Again, wonder how much GRRM buys into this, and how much creative control he really has.

Also, I had a "what if" moment recently while reviewing in my mind how Tyrion's trial might play out on screen. Are all accused able to invoke "trail by combat"? If so, why didn't Ned do it?

Imagine ... Ned invokes trial by combat. Joffrey would likely pick the Hound, or more likely the Mountain, as his champion. Who would Ned pick? If healthy he might defned himself, but he was in bad shape by then, considering his incarceration and his wound at the hand of Jamie. Could he have selected Jamie as his champion? If not he, then whom? Whichever of the Hound or Mountain was not representing Joffrey? Me, I'd have picked Barristan Selmy. Of course, not sure if one the Kingsguard was eligible, or if the Kingsguard could be a champion for someone against the King. Can anyone think of other options? Syrio Forel? Beric Dondarrion? 

Imagine how things may have developed differently in this scenario... esp. if Ned's Champion won.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Fair enough. I have no intention of getting into yet another one of these.


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

I've always thought of myself as a "book-first" fan but I found the White Walker development at the end of last night's episode quite satisfying and made me realize I'm ok with the show moving ahead of the books.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Yes, we are diverging dramatically with the White Walker scene. Here's a link to some commentary about it...

http://www.mtv.com/news/1816802/game-of-thrones-oathkeeper-ending-white-walkers/

http://zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thr...is_confirms_major_white_walker_theory-2014-04

It identifies the head WW as "the Night's King". Is this someone we've read about?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I vaguely recall reading that the showrunners have complete autonomy to tell the story at their own pace. That includes edits, eliminating (or adding) complete plotlines, time frames, whatever. I also read they plan on no more than eight seasons (7 woulda been better, they said, but they can live with 8), and the story will come to an end by then, regardless of the books.

And finally, I read that they know the entire story. Not just how it ends, but all the significant story lines.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

astrohip said:


> It identifies the head WW as "the Night's King". Is this someone we've read about?


Ok, a little more research... 

From ASOS Chapter 57: (from Tower of the Hand)



> Meera decides to scale the Wall to look around, while Jojen and the others do the same in the castle. Bran tells Jojen a little about the castle as they search. It was the first castle founded along the wall and the largest, but it was also the first to be abandoned, replaced during the reign of Jaehaerys I with the smaller and more manageable Deep Lake. The castle is supposed to have many ghosts. One group are the seventy-nine deserters who went south to become outlaws. One was a Ryswell, so they sought shelter with the lord, but he turned them in instead and they were supposedly sealed alive in the ice, becoming known as the seventy-nine sentinels. As an old man, the lord took the black to stand beside his son. As it gets dark outside, Bran's thoughts turn to the Night's King, the semi-legendary thirteenth commander of the Watch who once spied a pale maiden from atop the Wall and chased her down to make her his queen. According to the legend, she took his soul and bound the Watch to serve his will, ruling as a king for thirteen years before the King in the North joined with Joramun to end his rule. After he was overthrown, the victors discovered he had been sacrificing to the Others and had all mention of him stricken from the records. When Old Nan would tell the story, she would end by saying no one knew who he was, but that he was speculated to be a Magnar from Skagos, an Umber, a Flint, a Norrey, or a Woodfoot from the house that ruled Bear Island before it was conquered by the ironmen, but that the real identity of the Night's King was a Stark.


Supposedly the HBO site itself, in the synopsis of last night's episode, referred to this character as the Night's King. Now the HBO site merely says "a Walker"


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Yes, we are diverging dramatically with the White Walker scene. Here's a link to some commentary about it...
> 
> http://www.mtv.com/news/1816802/game-of-thrones-oathkeeper-ending-white-walkers/
> 
> ...


From awoiaf:
Night's King


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I would have thought that Cold Hands fit this description as well. But Cold Hands wasn't turning babies. 

I wonder if this is something from a future book, as some have suggested, or just something the show writers are making up--I assume with GrrM's approval. 

Not sure I like the whole showdown at Craster's Keep. So afterwards, assuming all the key players survive, is John going to just let Bran go on to wherever? In the meantime, what about the showdowns at the Wall? 

I thought that during this period there was a guy who was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who was a pretty good guy. Then he was killed in the first battle, and the election was held. Then there was a second battle with Stannis to the rescue. Have I got this wrong? 

And the Locke thing is not in the books at all either, although Roose does know the boys are alive. (I wonder if they're ever bringing Rickon back?) If he tells John he chopped off Jamie's hand, John will really love him.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

If you recall, there was a distinct sound of crows when the renegade nightswatchman was feeding Ghost and when the water on the ground froze. I expect to see cold hands in the next 1 or 2 episodes. Something like Jon Snow attacks craster's fort, gets cornered and coldhands frees Bran and the reeds to take them further north.


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

Regarding the book departures in Ep 04 (of which there were many), the one that bothered me most was the absence of Jorah's spying revelation and the reason he and Barristan Selmy went into Mereen via the sewer in the first place. 

That story line is pretty intrinsic to the whole Dany arc. Jorah departs and (eventually) hooks up with Tyrion. But if he's still with Dany during the Mereen capture, are they even going to have him get expelled by Dany? Will it even be revealed that he has been sending spy reports to Varys all along?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Not to mention that Varys has hardly been seen this season. It will be interesting to see how much they are changing the Dany story. It could impact Tyrion's.

Any guesses on where they will end this season? I can't remember what happened in the 3rd books as much as the 4th. Would they end it with the wildling assault on the wall or with what's his name riding in to save the Night's watch?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Any guesses on where they will end this season? I can't remember what happened in the 3rd books as much as the 4th. Would they end it with the wildling assault on the wall or with what's his name riding in to save the Night's watch?


The last two episodes are "The Watchers on the Wall" and "The Children".

I'd guess "The Watchers on the Wall" will cover the Wilding assault, and possibly Stannis' arrival. Perhaps "The Children" will end with Bran's journey north of the wall, meeting the Children of the Forest. I suppose it could also refer to Craster's children, but I think CotF is more likely.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Not sure I like the whole showdown at Craster's Keep. So afterwards, assuming all the key players survive


With this show, I don't assume that key players will survive.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> I thought that during this period there was a guy who was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who was a pretty good guy. Then he was killed in the first battle, and the election was held. Then there was a second battle with Stannis to the rescue. Have I got this wrong?


He wasn't Lord Commander, but Donal Noye was basically in charge. He was killed by Mag the Mighty, who also dies, in the tunnel during Mance's assault. The election is held after Stannis' arrival.

I don't think we're going to see Coldhands. He was the one who killed the rest of the men at Craster's Keep, but the show is having Jon do it.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> He wasn't Lord Commander, but Donal Noye was basically in charge. He was killed by Mag the Mighty, who also dies, in the tunnel during Mance's assault. The election is held after Stannis' arrival.
> 
> I don't think we're going to see Coldhands. He was the one who killed the rest of the men at Craster's Keep, but the show is having Jon do it.


With the way I heard those crows, I'm betting we do see him.  He's too integral to Bran's story to be left out.


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## MarkL (Jul 1, 2005)

jwehman said:


> Regarding the book departures in Ep 04 (of which there were many), the one that bothered me most was the absence of Jorah's spying revelation and the reason he and Barristan Selmy went into Mereen via the sewer in the first place.
> 
> That story line is pretty intrinsic to the whole Dany arc. Jorah departs and (eventually) hooks up with Tyrion. But if he's still with Dany during the Mereen capture, are they even going to have him get expelled by Dany? Will it even be revealed that he has been sending spy reports to Varys all along?


Early in Season 1, Varys tells Ned that Jorah is spying on Dany, so we already "know" that. Although most of us have forgotten by now!


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## The Spud (Aug 28, 2002)

MarkL said:


> Early in Season 1, Varys tells Ned that Jorah is spying on Dany, so we already "know" that. Although most of us have forgotten by now!


We may know that, but Dany does not.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I took it as foreshadowing when she went on about what a good friend he is. She's going to find out soon.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Don't forget we have yet to see Tyrion kill Tywin and Jae.


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Don't forget we have yet to see Tyrion kill Tywin and Jae.


I think this is where Season 4 ends. Crowbow bolt for Tywin and Tyrion sailing away.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Don't forget we have yet to see Tyrion kill Tywin and Jae.


Does that count as "name butchery"?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Interesting that the show has implicated Lysa in the poisoning of her husband. And Alaine is now Littlefinger's niece. Seems like that would much more easily revealed versus calling her a bastard daughter.

I'm not sure really what the point was of bringing Bran and Jon Snow so close together only to diverge them again. The whole expedition back to Crastor's seems a bit of a time-filler for the crew on The Wall.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Is it just me, or is the sense of dread over Tyrion's fate missing in the show? I remember I was so thrilled to learn Martell would be fighting on Tyrion's behalf, and absolutely blown that he got his face smashed in. 

When Varys and Jaime recue him it was a huge relief after being so sure he was going to die. Of course, the difference between reading the book and the show is that when I read the book the death of Robb and Catelyn was still fresh on my mind.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Also, you now know what's going to happen, which in my experience tends to lessen the suspense


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> I'm not sure really what the point was of bringing Bran and Jon Snow so close together only to diverge them again. The whole expedition back to Crastor's seems a bit of a time-filler for the crew on The Wall.


I think that's exactly it. In books, you can have characters not do anything for extended periods of time without having to pay the actors.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

3D said:


> Also, you now know what's going to happen, which in my experience tends to lessen the suspense


While I would agree, it feels like the last two episodes have done nothing to show how very real it is that Tyrion is going to die.

If I were one of the show runners, I would try to reinforce that with scenes from the book (like Bronn telling Tyrion there was no reason to help him and his uncle proclaiming he was certai Tyrion was guilty). In the book it was clear that Tyrion had no one. In the show Bronn is kept away from Tyrion but seemingly still cares, and Jaime goes to see him before he breaks Tyrion out. I think those scenes have lessened the sense of dread around him.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> Interesting that the show has implicated Lysa in the poisoning of her husband.


The difference is that it happened earlier than in the book and Sansa didn't hear it, but there's still time for that.

Still no Coldhands.

From the preview



Spoiler



The shot of Braavos in one of the trailers is because of Stannis traveling there this season, not Arya.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> While I would agree, it feels like the last two episodes have done nothing to show how very real it is that Tyrion is going to die.
> 
> If I were one of the show runners, I would try to reinforce that with scenes from the book (like Bronn telling Tyrion there was no reason to help him and his uncle proclaiming he was certai Tyrion was guilty). In the book it was clear that Tyrion had no one. In the show Bronn is kept away from Tyrion but seemingly still cares, and Jaime goes to see him before he breaks Tyrion out. I think those scenes have lessened the sense of dread around him.


Can't argue with as to what's been done thus far, but we really need to see how it plays out. Based on the show runners' track record, I have faith that they will eventually create the proper amount of tension and gloom regarding Tyrion's predicament.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

There are several things I didn't remember from the books. We did find out that Lysa killed her husband? And were the Lannisters broke in the books? They may have been in debt, but I don't remember anything about no more gold in the mines. 

Did Stannis have to go to Bravos for money in the books? I don't remember that. 

I only read the books twice--I guess I need to read them one more time. 

We still have the trial coming up for Tyrion--or do we just go straight to the trial by combat? I didn't think it was too hopeless for him until after that failed.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> There are several things I didn't remember from the books. We did find out that Lysa killed her husband? And were the Lannisters broke in the books? They may have been in debt, but I don't remember anything about no more gold in the mines.
> 
> Did Stannis have to go to Bravos for money in the books? I don't remember that.
> 
> ...


Lysa mentioned it, in front of Sansa, shortly before flying.

Robert's spending habits caused Littlefinger to borrow from Tywin and the Iron bank.

The Iron Bank came to Stannis.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> While I would agree, it feels like the last two episodes have done nothing to show how very real it is that Tyrion is going to die.


I think it's just a matter if timing. They have other things to deal with first, so they don't want to let the tension build then ebb. I think they'll ramp it up in the episodes that deal with the trial and the aftermath.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Stannis & Davos visit Braavos and the Iron Bank. I don't recall that. I thought they sailed direct to the North.

Is my memory failing, or are we rewriting history again?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

They did not got to Braavos in the book. Instead, the Iron Bank rep came to them in the north after Cersei told the Iron Bank to pound sand.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

astrohip said:


> Stannis & Davos visit Braavos and the Iron Bank. I don't recall that. I thought they sailed direct to the North.
> 
> Is my memory failing, or are we rewriting history again?


I'm 99% certain in the book that they sailed direct to the north, and the Iron Bank sent an envoy (Tycho) to them.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I think they are planting the seeds. The big discussion of "Who do you back when Tywin Lannister dies?" would have brought the thing to a head when Tyrions trial plays out.

But if it's seeds, they shouldn't have the money now, so maybe I'm wrong.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Ah, I remember Tycho now. He was the guy who managed to get wherever he need to go, find whoever he needed to find, regardless of snow drifts and battles and whatnot. It was always amazing how he pulled thru in any situation.


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

I am very much looking forward to next week. I loved in the book how the Viper taunted Gregor, I can't wait to see how it plays out visually.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

cherry ghost said:


> Robert's spending habits caused Littlefinger to borrow from Tywin and the Iron bank.
> .


But did the Lannister gold run out in the books? We know the Crown owes money to everyone, but I don't remember anything about the Lannisters themselves being short of cash in the books.



JoeyJoJo said:


> I am very much looking forward to next week. I loved in the book how the Viper taunted Gregor, I can't wait to see how it plays out visually.


They are driving me crazy in the other thread trying to guess who will fight the duel.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

JoeyJoJo said:


> I am very much looking forward to next week. I loved in the book how the Viper taunted Gregor, I can't wait to see how it plays out visually.


We have already seen the fight briefly in the promo for this season. It's too bad, I really like Viper, though who knows, he may live, as the Hound is still alive.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> They are driving me crazy in the other thread trying to guess who will fight the duel.


It's hard work not saying anything. And with someone spoiling an episode title even!



secondclaw said:


> We have already seen the fight briefly in the promo for this season. It's too bad, I really like Viper, though who knows, he may live, as the Hound is still alive.


My wife, a non-reader, saw that preview and still didn't know what it meant. I even went back and slo-mo'ed it for her, and she was lost. I think the Mountain being a different actor, and not being on screen for a couple years, took away any shock value. Except for us.:up:


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> But did the Lannister gold run out in the books?


Not that I remember.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> They are driving me crazy in the other thread trying to guess who will fight the duel.


^This! I've tried to keep my reading and watching in sync, but I got slightly ahead in the book last week, so now I have to bite my tongue with the talk about the trial by combat.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I'm sick an tired of the spoiler nazis constantly complaining about even mentioning the books. No one has spoiled anything and we're all smart enough to not discuss things that could have alternate paths. Like the guy said in the other thread, discussing the fact that a character doesn't even exist in the books or doesn't do what they did in the show doesn't spoil anything. It's as bad as the ones that complain when you say anything about the preview for next week.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

I'm waiting for the show to pass the book, and then all the fronts in the Spoiler Wars will reverse!


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

Eh, I know some people don't even watch previews because they hate spoilers that much.

I personally don't understand it. I'm reading the 5th book now, and because the show has some stuff out of order I've seen things that haven't been revealed yet. It doesn't bother me in the least. To me they're two different items with a similar theme.

In the case of the Episode threads though, I do think the courteous thing to do is not mention the books. If a non-reader asks a question about the book, it's not difficult to say that you'll PM the answer in order to be thoughtful of those who don't want book info.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> I'm waiting for the show to pass the book, and then all the fronts in the Spoiler Wars will reverse!


:up:


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## rjay717 (Nov 18, 2005)

Actually, I think this has crossed everyone's mind:


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I'm sick an tired of the spoiler nazis constantly complaining about even mentioning the books. No one has spoiled anything and we're all smart enough to not discuss things that could have alternate paths. Like the guy said in the other thread, discussing the fact that a character doesn't even exist in the books or doesn't do what they did in the show doesn't spoil anything. It's as bad as the ones that complain when you say anything about the preview for next week.


I've read the books, but I see their side. If you know they don't want the books mentioned in the show threads, why post it there? Coming into that thread and essentially posting, "I know something you don't know!" is kind of uncool.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

pendragn said:


> I've read the books, but I see their side. If you know they don't want the books mentioned in the show threads, why post it there? Coming into that thread and essentially posting, "I know something you don't know!" is kind of uncool.


why do they get to decide what's talked about? I post nothing but comments that have no bearing on the plot. There's no rule that says I can't even mention a book if I don't spoil anything. People responded to the posts about the differences in the two, so clearly people who haven't read the books want to discuss the differences. They don't get to make up rules.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Just my opinion, but book talk doesn't belong in the show threads, period.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

So I guess no book reader can participate eh? How about I post that prince Oberon is one of the champions that is chosen because I saw him fighting in the season preview? No one has mentioned that yet, but it's completely plausible that a non bookreader figures that out. I don't post it though because I realized it what it was when I saw it only because I read the books. There's so many instances like this that it effectively keeps bookreaders from participating at all. Saying that you can't discuss anything about the books just cements it.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Dude. Just deal with it. You're in the distinct minority here - I'm a book-reader (obviously), and I agree that book talk doesn't belong in the TV show only threads. That's why we have threads like these. Just stick your commenting in episode threads to things that *actually* happened in the episode, and then come over here and gloat about how their minds are going to be blown. 

Besides, it's been long-standing policy here to not discuss previews from upcoming episodes in episode-specific threads, so I'm not sure why you're complaining.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I am luke warm on the spoilers.

On the one hand I try to respect those who do not want to be spoiled by not giving details on events from the books, future or otherwise, unsolicited.

On the flip side, if someone asks something in thread, I think answering them in thread via the spoiler tags is acceptable. There might be others who want to know the answer also, so a PM would be limiting. 

Book discussion in the show threads should ultimately be kept to an absolute minimum, however.

Outright spoilering something like John what his name with the Horn of Joramm or whatever was kind of a foolish post.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Again, I have posted absolutely no spoilers and anyone that doesn't have their fingers in their ears yelling could see that, regardless of whether they read the books or not.


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

Are they going to leave Victarion out of the series altogether? Shouldnt he made his appearance by now?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Legion said:


> Are they going to leave Victarion out of the series altogether? Shouldnt he made his appearance by now?


If he shows up it will be delayed, like they delayed Oberon until this season.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> I am luke warm on the spoilers.
> 
> On the one hand I try to respect those who do not want to be spoiled by not giving details on events from the books, future or otherwise, unsolicited.
> 
> ...


During the first season of the show I hadn't read the book, and I really appreciated getting background on the families etc from book readers in the thread. I guess it's not as hard to follow now as the first season was (or I'm an idiot, because I had trouble) so it's not as necessary.

I would give John the benefit of the doubt and think that he didn't realize that the horn hadn't been mentioned on the show--I sometimes get confused and could swear I've seen a scene acted out that I haven't. Someone commented on it and thought that Mance was going to blow a horn to signal the start of the attack. Not really a big spoiler IMO if he did it by accident. They still don't know what he was talking about.

I wonder if they will do the Kingsmoot?

I don't think the non readers realize that even after reading 5 huge books, we really know very little.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> During the first season of the show I hadn't read the book, and I really appreciated getting background on the families etc from book readers in the thread. I guess it's not as hard to follow now as the first season was (or I'm an idiot, because I had trouble) so it's not as necessary. I would give John the benefit of the doubt and think that he didn't realize that the horn hadn't been mentioned on the show--I sometimes get confused and could swear I've seen a scene acted out that I haven't. Someone commented on it and thought that Mance was going to blow a horn to signal the start of the attack. Not really a big spoiler IMO if he did it by accident. They still don't know what he was talking about. I wonder if they will do the Kingsmoot? I don't think the non readers realize that even after reading 5 huge books, we really know very little.


Sam found "a horn" at the fist of the first men in the show. They didn't say it was THE horn.

What book did zombie catelyn appear?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Here's an interesting point I just read. The white walker at the end of "Oathkeeper" that turned the baby's eyes blue is believed to be "The Nights King". Joramun was the one that defeated the nights king.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Backup info


> The Night's King is "a legendary Lord Commander of the Night's Watch," according to A Wiki Of Ice And Fire. He was the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who fell in love with a woman "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars," according to Storm Of Swords, the third book in the Song Of Ice And Fire series on which the 3rd and 4th seasons of Game Of Thrones are based. Even though "her skin was cold as ice," he chased after her and gave her his soul when he gave her his "seed" (gross, sorry).
> 
> The Night's King brought her home to the Nightfort -- this is where Bran was holed up when he met up with Samwell -- and declared her his queen, ruling the Nightfort for thirteen years, during which he and his queen ruled with a mighty, violent fist -- the tales of which are still told as horrifying bedtime stories in the North. Only his own brother, Joramun, the King-Beyond-the-Wall at the time, could take the Night's King down, after which the Night's watch were freed from his rule.
> 
> ...


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> What book did zombie catelyn appear?


Epilogue of book 3


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

stellie93 said:


> I would give John the benefit of the doubt and think that he didn't realize that the horn hadn't been mentioned on the show--I sometimes get confused and could swear I've seen a scene acted out that I haven't. Someone commented on it and thought that Mance was going to blow a horn to signal the start of the attack. Not really a big spoiler IMO if he did it by accident. They still don't know what he was talking about.


Thank you. Of course it was an accident. I don't intentionally post spoilers (and besides, I went back and spoilerized it as soon as I suspected my mistake).

I had thought that (on the show) Mance or one of the Wildings had mentioned the horn when Jon was undercover with the Wildings.

Anyway, it was not a big spoiler. I was pointing out that the Wall is not just ice, but somehow stops the white walkers, and that is why blowing the horn to bring down the Wall is a big concern. It was not like I said "the magic horn will be blown and the Wall come down" (or not, or whatever). I just mentioned the possibility. So if anyone understood what I said, I accidentally spoiled for them the fact that there is a horn that some think might be able to bring down the Wall. And now even that vague mention is spoilerized in my post.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> Epilogue of book 3


hmm, I wonder if they will include her. They kinda have to since dondarion has already been shown and is important to the story.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I would be shocked if the epilogue to book three is not the last scene of the season, probably coming on the heals of Tyrion's bit of nasty business.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Good episode--lots of stuff happened, but nothing too surprising. 

I don't remember Hotpie telling Brienne about Arya being alive. She did end up looking for her, but I thought she still thought she was trailing Sansa until close to the end. Nice to see Hotpie again, and the Biter and the other guy. Hound seems to be on his way out. He should have let her burn him. 

I can't remember any reason to ever see Bronn again. 

They don't say much about info traveling by raven any more. 

I think Sansa is the weakest actress on the whole show--which isn't saying she's not good. She just stands out in this company.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I was concerned that showrunners may keep Hound alive. Not that I don't enjoy his and Arya's scenes - there is good chemistry between them. Too bad about Bronn - I liked him in the books, and in the show. 

So we have 3 episodes left, and 5 characters to die (and one to undie) ... it will be a busy few weeks.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I think Sansa is the weakest actress on the whole show--which isn't saying she's not good. She just stands out in this company.


I don't know what you're specifically not happy about with her acting but if it's how annoying she is and how much you'd like to just not see her anymore, that's good acting because it follows the books pretty closely. From that standpoint she's doing as good a job as Peter Dinklage. It's just that his character in both book and show is awesome.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I think it's funny how close some of the non-bookreaders get to the plot.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10113324#post10113324


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Yeah, noticed that.


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I think it's funny how close some of the non-bookreaders get to the plot.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10113324#post10113324


Noticed the same. They doth protest too much I think. That GOT Wiki has been getting used and abused.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Some potential spoilers for Season Five are starting to leak...

obligatory WARNING: could be spoilers for next year!

http://www.ibtimes.com/game-thrones...-revealed-upcoming-season-says-report-1589723

http://www.ibtimes.com/game-thrones...-character-revealed-lena-headey-photo-1588110


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Well ****. According to the second article they eliminated cold hands.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I had thought that Bronn had about finished his story, but if his wife is added next season, I guess not. I don't remember them doing much of importance in the books--but then my memory sucks. 

We had already discussed the "new" character in the second link. Nice to see her again on 24. 

As far as the characters from Dorne go--I thought they were some of the least interesting parts of the books, although mostly necessary.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

After Dany's stories in the last books the whole Dorne thing is a masterpiece, sadly.
I'm looking forward to Stoneheart, that was and awesome epilogue to book 3, though I think inevitably non readers will worry that now all other dead characters can come back.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Who knows? Maybe they will in book 6.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Who knows? Maybe they will in book 6.


Or if you don't want to wait that long, check out the corresponding season of the show.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

The worst spoiler of all is going to IMDB to look up an actor and noticing how many episodes that they are in, then it's easy to tell if they will die or not. I am reading the books and enjoying them but I haven't caught up yet, just into the 2nd one.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

super dave said:


> The worst spoiler of all is going to IMDB to look up an actor and noticing how many episodes that they are in, then it's easy to tell if they will die or not.


That's not foolproof, though; IMDb is crowdsourced, and people may be mistaken (or misled) when they say so-and-so is or isn't going to be in such-and-such an episode.

Plus there are characters who don't appear in every episode anyway.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

And there are characters whose actor gets replaced by another actor.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's not foolproof, though; IMDb is crowdsourced, and people may be mistaken (or misled) when they say so-and-so is or isn't going to be in such-and-such an episode.
> 
> Plus there are characters who don't appear in every episode anyway.


I get that, but when I went to GOT's page and not an episode and it shows who is in the most episodes at the top without reading the next episode in the book I already know Tyrion's fate.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

super dave said:


> I get that, but when I went to GOT's page and not an episode and it shows who is in the most episodes at the top without reading the next episode in the book I already know Tyrion's fate.


??? How do you know his fate?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ??? How do you know his fate?


I guess he means he deduces that Tyrion is not going to die in the next episode.

Although I am not sure why he is reading this thread if he is worried about spoilers.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

I am not worried about spoilers, just commenting that if a person is so worried about them going to any website they run a risk so why get all freaked out. Regarding Tyrion's fate he has the most episodes of any actor/character listed, easy to deduce he isn't dead yet. Which is a good thing Dinklage is awesome in the role.


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

I take it was not on last night?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I take it was not on last night?


Nope.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Well ****. According to the second article they eliminated cold hands.


That's not quite accurate - it seems that the article is speculating that because Cold Hands hasn't appeared (yet?) in the TV show, whereas he had already made his appearance in the books. There was nothing from the showrunners or even un-named "sources" confirming Cold Hands had been eliminated as a character.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)




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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Heh. My brother sent me almost that exact picture.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)




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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

A very well done comic interpretation of tonight's fight.

https://mccomseycomix.wordpress.com...r-vs-the-mountain-that-rides-a-12-page-comic/


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

I'm not sure which books this happened in, so I'm spoiling it for people that haven't read them all. Deals with Tyrion's future.


Spoiler






MikeAndrews said:


> Yeah. So much for my theory.
> 
> Now I wanna know how they weasel out of Tyrion getting chopped.
> 
> ...


There is no way he hasn't read the books.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

pendragn said:


> I'm not sure which books this happened in, so I'm spoiling it for people that haven't read them all. Deals with Tyrion's future.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


There are a couple people I've always suspected of pretending they haven't read any of the books. He wasn't one, but I usually skip over his posts.


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

pendragn said:


> There is no way he hasn't read the books.
> [/spoiler]


Completely agree.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Legion said:


> Completely agree.


Now now, be fair.

There's always Wikipedia.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

pendragn said:


> I'm not sure which books this happened in, so I'm spoiling it for people that haven't read them all. Deals with Tyrion's future.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Or a spoiler site. A few others have been too spot on. No reason to call them out, though. As we can see from the show thread, others who don't want to be spoiled are still getting surprised. It is good they stay on the edge of their seats. I had the same reaction when reading book three and the Mountain killed Oberyn.

The difference between me and the show watchers was that I was still so fresh off of Rob and Joffrey's deaths I was certain Tyrion was going to die, also.

I was very relieved when he didn't.

God, book three was an emotional roller coaster.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Myself, while I can see the heightened drama of finishing the episode with Tyrion being sentenced to death, It also telegraphs that he can likely survive.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Sorry for the stupid question - but I wanted to make sure I had the "Seven Kingdoms" correct?

North - Stark (now Bolton)
Riverlands - Tully (now Frey?)
West - Lannister
Vale - Arryn
Stormlands - Baratheon (now ?)
Dorne - Martell
Gardens - Tyrell

Where do the Iron Islands fit in?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MacThor said:


> Sorry for the stupid question - but I wanted to make sure I had the "Seven Kingdoms" correct?
> 
> North - Stark (now Bolton)
> Riverlands - Tully (now Frey?)
> ...


They were one of the Seven Kingdoms, and the Riverlands were not (having been conquered by the Stormlands before the Seven Kingdoms were united).


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Thanks Rob. Who now controls Storm's End (in the TV show timeline)?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

MacThor said:


> Thanks Rob. Who now controls Storm's End (in the TV show timeline)?


It depends on who you think has a right to the Iron Throne, Stannis or Tommen.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

MacThor said:


> Thanks Rob. Who now controls Storm's End (in the TV show timeline)?


I re read this.

Tommen (or rather the Lannisters) do.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Storm's End would be Stannis's, regardless of whether or not he is King. He is the heir to the Baratheons.

[edit] Oops, I keep forgetting Cersei's brood are supposed to be Robert's kids. So, yes, Tommen.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Storm's End would be Stannis's, regardless of whether or not he is King. He is the heir to the Baratheons.


OK - Renly died without an heir, so it should be Stannis's, but he has remained at Dragonstone.

Although I guess Tommen is "legally" a Baratheon...

The Stormlands really haven't come up on the show since Renly was killed.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I just finished book four. Just about to start book five. 

I have only watched up to the middle of season two though.

It is really difficult to watch the show and read the books because of knowing what will be happening. I am not going to stop doing either though.

One quick question - I haven't read all of this thread, but have heard about departures from books in the tv show. 

Is there a site that shows them or has it been talked about here?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Did anyone else catch Littlefinger's remark about people dying on the privy?

I am certain the writers slipped that one in for our benefit.


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> Did anyone else catch Littlefinger's remark about people dying on the privy?
> 
> I am certain the writers slipped that one in for our benefit.


Yup. Thought the same thing when I heard it.



Shaunnick said:


> Or a spoiler site.


Potato, Potatoe. Wiki's or spoiler sites.....what is the difference? He still has information on how the story unfolds and is till handing out spoilers like candy under the guise of "honest guessing".

Shouldnt he be chased by an anti-spoiler mob with torches and burned for it?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Brutal ending last night. Even though I knew what was going to happen, it was still affecting.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Well, I haven't read spoilers and have only read book one, so last night's ending was pretty shocking for me. I do follow this thread, though.

That being said, I think it's pretty obvious who comes to the rescue at Castle Black. They telegraphed it in an episode in Season 3 I believe. I'm still not going to post my speculation in the episode threads though it's truly an honest guess.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

The Grey Worm / Missandei thing is really unnecessary


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

When Sansa told them her real name, I though it was going to go way off from the books. She never told them any of that, did she? But then if they keep it secret, I guess it wouldn't change anything. Even having read all the books, we don't really know what happens with her and Baelish anyway. 

Also, I don't think Arya got that close to the Eyrie when they found out that Lysa was dead. But since no one outside knows that Sansa is there, I suppose they'll just leave. The Hound seems a little better.....Those 2 are so good together, I'm sure they hate to kill him off. The producers aren't nearly as cold hearted as GRRM in killing people off.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> When Sansa told them her real name, I though it was going to go way off from the books. She never told them any of that, did she? But then if they keep it secret, I guess it wouldn't change anything. Even having read all the books, we don't really know what happens with her and Baelish anyway.
> 
> Also, I don't think Arya got that close to the Eyrie when they found out that Lysa was dead. But since no one outside knows that Sansa is there, I suppose they'll just leave. The Hound seems a little better.....Those 2 are so good together, I'm sure they hate to kill him off. The producers aren't nearly as cold hearted as GRRM in killing people off.


Arya just left because after the Hound dies in the books she really has no other direction. I really don't recall if she heard her aunt was dead or not.

As to the Hound living on in the TV show, I think we got our setup for his death pretty much set in place.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> The Grey Worm / Missandei thing is really unnecessary


We got a nice view of Missadei. I think that was worth it.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> We got a nice view of Missadei. I think that was worth it.


It was a very worthy deviation from the books. Besides, they're basically treading water with Dany anyways.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> It was a very worthy deviation from the books. Besides, they're basically treading water with Dany anyways.


I am assuming that all actors must have a nudity clause in their contract (both male and female.) I find it interesting that some of the actresses often don't appear nude until well after they have joined the show.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Legion said:


> Potato, Potatoe. Wiki's or spoiler sites.....what is the difference? He still has information on how the story unfolds and is till handing out spoilers like candy under the guise of "honest guessing".
> 
> Shouldnt he be chased by an anti-spoiler mob with torches and burned for it?


The problem is you can't call out those people (on the forums) because doing so validates their "guesses" and is itself a spoiler. You could PM them if you want.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Also, it is not impossible that it was a real guess. A prison break and leaving the area is actually fairly plausible. Either Tyrion dies, or else he somehow gets out of prison. They did have that scene with Tyrion and Varys recently, so thinking that Varys might help is a reasonable guess. Then someone as recognizable as Tyrion can hardly stay near by after he escapes.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Saw this elsewhere.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> Also, it is not impossible that it was a real guess. A prison break and leaving the area is actually fairly plausible. Either Tyrion dies, or else he somehow gets out of prison. They did have that scene with Tyrion and Varys recently, so thinking that Varys might help is a reasonable guess. Then someone as recognizable as Tyrion can hardly stay near by after he escapes.


Its certainly possible, but this post:



> Maybe Varys will break him out of the dungeon and he becomes a fugitive.
> Maybe he can hook up with Ser. Jorah and they become The Cisco Kid and Pancho.


Is a little too on the nose while at the same time being just enough off if he wanted it to appear as a guess. If he described just the breakout, ok. The fact that he would make the leap that Jorah and Tyrion, on two different continents, somehow come into contact is what puts this over the edge, imo.


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> Its certainly possible, but this post:
> 
> Is a little too on the nose while at the same time being just enough off if he wanted it to appear as a guess. If he described just the breakout, ok. The fact that he would make the leap that Jorah and Tyrion, on two different continents, somehow come into contact is what puts this over the edge, imo.


Or this one. 


MikeAndrews said:


> Jorah can stay out of sight and quietly help Dany and her entourage from behind the trees, until she realizes that her luck is too good and figures out who her benefactor is.
> 
> I should write these things (but I know I've seen such before.)


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Shaunnick said:


> IThe fact that he would make the leap that Jorah and Tyrion, on two different continents, somehow come into contact is what puts this over the edge, imo.


They would both be exiles. Seems a reasonable guess to me.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

whoknows55 said:


> Or this one.


Another reasonable guess.

Now, if he "guessed" that Tyrion would kill his father on the privy while escaping, then you would have something.

Right now you are just making accusations on very flimsy evidence.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Was the beetles thing in the books? I don't remember it, and here's something I've never said before--that scene with Tyrion could have been replaced with something better.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

IMO, it's hard to be sure if some guess is really "cheating", short of something like this:



john4200 said:


> Now, if he "guessed" that Tyrion would kill his father on the privy while escaping, then you would have something.


OTOH, given some of the comments in the TV threads, you can tell who HASN'T read ahead of the shows.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Anyone game to make the series vs book thread? Seems there's a few that would be interested in that.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Was the beetles thing in the books? I don't remember it, and here's something I've never said before--that scene with Tyrion could have been replaced with something better.


No, I'm pretty sure it's not. I wasn't too keen on that scene at first and then I saw a cartoon posted on Reddit (I'll look for it) that depicted GRRM as the mental cousin and he's stomping on all of the GoT characters who look like beetles while making the TUHNK! TUHNK! noise. I rewatched the scene and it made more sense. It's almost self-referential.

That seemed to fit perfectly. Then it got me thinking on the grander scheme of the show and real life as a whole. Why does anyone die? Are there gods up there simply smashing them like beetles, not giving as care, doing it for their own mere enjoyment? It ties in with all of the deaths in GoT and offers up a bit of foreshadowing. Nothing is fair and there may be no reason behind it other than people die. Olsen is behind it all.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Yeah, that scene is not from the books, and I think it was just to reinforce what seems to be a central theme of the shows/books: life in Westeros is brutal, you're likely going to die a violent death, and just as likely as not, there will be no explanation for it.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DreadPirateRob said:


> ... life in Westeros is brutal, you're likely going to die a violent death, and just as likely as not, there will be no explanation for it.


That made me think of this movie trailer I just saw:

A Million Ways To Die In the West[eros]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhmP8UYtipA[/media]


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> Another reasonable guess.
> 
> Now, if he "guessed" that Tyrion would kill his father on the privy while escaping, then you would have something.
> 
> Right now you are just making accusations on very flimsy evidence.


There is a reason we're keeping our suspicions to just this thread and not PM'ing a mod. We allow for the exception that he is making reasonably good guesses. Our gut just tells us it is more than a guess. You obviously disagree, but you tend to disagree with a lot of people on a range of issues. What you call flimsy evidence I call anecdotal. And anecdotal evidence is not to be given a lot of weight, but there is a difference.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Shaunnick said:


> What you call flimsy evidence I call anecdotal. And anecdotal evidence is not to be given a lot of weight, but there is a difference.


I think it is dishonorable to make accusations against someone on such weak evidence. Even more so if that person is unlikely to be able to respond to such accusations. It is a short step from that to a witch hunt. I think your accusations make a stronger statement about yourself than they do about him.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

As long as the non book readers in the other thread don't think he knows anything, and he's not posting the whole plot of the next episode, it really doesn't matter that much.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> I think it is dishonorable to make accusations against someone on such weak evidence. Even more so if that person is unlikely to be able to respond to such accusations. It is a short step from that to a witch hunt. I think your accusations make a stronger statement about yourself than they do about him.


The thing is this, you're making this bigger than it ever really was. We had suspicions. We posted what made us have those suspicions. You come in here in your customary fashion and now it is a witch hunt, in which no one is being hunted and no one is being burned at the stake for.

The post looks hinky to those of us who know where the books are going. We don't know that he knows, too. What we know is what he posted. That's where all of this started and that is where it stands. If you think those of us who pointed it out have some devious intention and that our character is being called into question, well have fun with that.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> The thing is this, you're making this bigger than it ever really was. We had suspicions. We posted what made us have those suspicions. You come in here in your customary fashion and now it is a witch hunt, in which no one is being hunted and no one is being burned at the stake for.
> 
> The post looks hinky to those of us who know where the books are going. We don't know that he knows, too. What we know is what he posted. That's where all of this started and that is where it stands. If you think those of us who pointed it out have some devious intention and that our character is being called into question, well have fun with that.


This.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

So, I haven't checked but when does book six come out?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

In the books the main reason Oberyn stayed alive as long as he did, was the poison on his sword. Didn't they suggest that the Mountain got slower and sluggish as time went on? I wonder if they're going to do that here? There hasn't really been any suggestion of poison yet.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

betts4 said:


> So, I haven't checked but when does book six come out?


The answer sucks.

Release date: TBD


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> The answer sucks.
> 
> Release date: TBD


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

betts4 said:


> So, I haven't checked but when does book six come out?


Well, the gaps so far have been 2, 2, 5, and 6 years. So I wouldn't bet on much earlier than 2017...


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> In the books the main reason Oberyn stayed alive as long as he did, was the poison on his sword. Didn't they suggest that the Mountain got slower and sluggish as time went on? I wonder if they're going to do that here? There hasn't really been any suggestion of poison yet.


I don't remember specifically about the Mountain getting slower, but it simply could have been because of his size and chasing the much quicker Oberyn.

As to the poison, are you sure they didn't allude to it?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Shaunnick said:


> If you think those of us who pointed it out have some devious intention and that our character is being called into question, well have fun with that.


You (and some others) were the one who made a big thing of it. Trashing someone's reputation by such accusations is not a small thing.

I did not say anything about intentions or motivations -- only about what what was actually posted. I said that making accusations (of deception) against someone on such weak evidence is a dishonorable thing to do. Especially when it is done in a thread that the person may not even be reading.

As for my saying it is a short step from that to a witch hunt:



Legion said:


> Shouldnt he be chased by an anti-spoiler mob with torches and burned for it?


The honorable thing to do, if it really bothered you, would be to PM the guy about it. Not make accusations about him in a thread he may not even read. Of course, you would need to be pretty sure of yourself, since if you were wrong, you would be PM'ing him with spoilers that his guesses were correct. At least that would be better than trashing someone's character on such weak evidence.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

audioscience said:


> I don't remember specifically about the Mountain getting slower, but it simply could have been because of his size and chasing the much quicker Oberyn.
> 
> As to the poison, are you sure they didn't allude to it?


That's how I took that scene as well. It looked like he was polishing it, but he was really rubbing it down with poison.

I guess we'll know in 2 episodes (apparently episode 9 is going to take place entirely at the Wall).


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I haven't checked the game of thrones wikipedia site but can anyone give me an estimate of how many months/years have passed from book to book. Has it been a couple years?


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

audioscience said:


> I don't remember specifically about the Mountain getting slower, but it simply could have been because of his size and chasing the much quicker Oberyn.
> 
> As to the poison, are you sure they didn't allude to it?


You don't think this was just symbolism, Oberyn getting his sword waxed one last time?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't remember anyone on the other thread picking up on the poison angle, but it's a long thread and maybe I missed it. If they're expecting non book readers to catch it, they may have failed.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

That scene could just be the squire polishing the spear so that it will reflect the sunlight.

If we were supposed to assume poison, then they should have at least shown some dark stain on the cloth or the spear.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Pyp and Grenn.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

(checks to make sure I'm in the right thread)

So, one more episode. Here's what I think we'll see next week.

Jon & Mance set us up for next season at the wall (no Stannis yet).
Tyrion's escape & patricide (and whoreicide).
Arya refuses mercy to The Hound & gets on a boat.
Bran & friends find The Tree.
Lady Stoneheart will be the last scene.

Sound about right?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Stoneheart is a big maybe. If we see her it will be with Pod and Brienne, I think.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

And from the previews you can see a scene that is a lowshot of someone with a crossbow walking to a wooden door.

Buh bye, Tywin.


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

Agree.
Agree.
Agree.
I'm thinking he has the vision of where the tree is, but they don't get there yet.
Agree.

Interesting departures on last night's episode. Having both groups attack the wall at the same time bugged me. They had so few men that they never should have been able to withstand both sides being attacked.

Also, it looks like Jon Snow will have fewer competitors for Lord Commander.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I think we'll see Stannis at The Wall but no Lady Stoneheart


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Tywin getting offed? Near definite.
Arya leaving for Braavos? Near definite. (I'm a bit surprised that her storyline didn't advance a bit more, since they actually introduced Braavos this season)
Stannis? I think we'll actually see him arrive at the wall
Bran? Probably still wandering in the wilderness.

I think Stoneheart will wait, especially since, in the books, that's still a stranded storyline.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, Stannis showing up is probably the big finish.


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, Stannis showing up is probably the big finish.


No, big finish will be Tywin's death. From the previews you see riders fighting so Stannis is definately at the wall.

Lady Stoneheart is most likely not in the finale.

Arya and Hound dying has to be there for her to head to Braavos

From the previews it does seem Bran is finally at the Tree.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

You know, next week's title is the Children. Someone already speculated that it was in reference to the children of the forest, so I bet Bran's scene will be the last scene.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

su719 said:


> No, big finish will be Tywin's death. From the previews you see riders fighting so Stannis is definately at the wall.
> 
> Lady Stoneheart is most likely not in the finale.
> 
> ...


I enjoyed the last episode, but it's annoying that they spend an entire episode on the attack on the wall and then the next episode they split 3-4 great storylines into one episode.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Could be Tywin's death and Tyrion's escape. The Dany and the Dragons (great band name) seems to be entering the story doldrums. Stannis coming to the rescue at the wall is reminiscent of Tywin at the Blackwater, so I doubt that will be the last piece. There hasn't been any foreshadowing at all about Lady Stoneheart, so that would be way out of left field, and therefore could happen.  

My money is on Arya (Valar Morghulis), sailing off to Braavos.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Mr. Soze said:


> There hasn't been any foreshadowing at all about Lady Stoneheart, so that would be way out of left field, and therefore could happen.


https://www.google.com/search?q=len...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> https://www.google.com/search?q=len...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb


Good job there's no Instagram in Westeros! .


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

What is this business of Jon heading off to kill Mance? If Stannis comes to the rescue, where will Jon be? Plus we need Mance to get his singing career going.


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> What is this business of Jon heading off to kill Mance? If Stannis comes to the rescue, where will Jon be? Plus we need Mance to get his singing career going.


Jon in the books was treating with Mance when Stannis arrives. That is the only reason he survives. When the Eastwatch by the sea men arrive after Jon holds back Mance's army for a few days they still consider Jon a trader and send him to treat with Mance most likely leading to his death. Stannis comes while Jon is meeting with Mance in his tent.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Thanks, I had forgotten all about that. I thought Stannis came mid-battle.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

su719 said:


> When the Eastwatch by the sea men arrive after Jon holds back Mance's army for a few days they still consider Jon a trader and send him to treat with Mance most likely leading to his death.


Trader Jon. Brother to Trader Joe.


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I enjoyed the last episode, but it's annoying that they spend an entire episode on the attack on the wall and then the next episode they split 3-4 great storylines into one episode.


Agreed, and unfortunately all the comparisons by reviewers to "Blackwater" is not as clear as they think since they have only seen 3/4 of the battle compared to all of "Blackwater" It would have been much different if they had ended it when Tyrion took the axe to the face instead of with Tywin declaring the battle over.

Waiting for next week should hopefully close the ark with Jon being voted lord commander.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

The Children may have a double meaning here - first, obviously Bran and Children of the Forest. But the episode will carry significant direction changes to other children in the story - Tyrion killing Tywin and running off into the unknown. Arya running off to Braavos. Jon Snow ascending (wouldn't be surprised if he was made Lord Commander by episode end - or at least his name put forth).


Shaunnick said:


> You know, next week's title is the Children. Someone already speculated that it was in reference to the children of the forest, so I bet Bran's scene will be the last scene.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

I'm actually a pretty big fan of the changes they made to the Wall battles. Having Jon decide on his own to leave and treat with Mance is just fantastic. A season ago a lot of book readers were complaining that the show made Jon too much of a naive wimp. Now the payoff is so worth it. Plus those scenes in the book where Jon was jailed were just awful.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Interesting about the Instagram spoiler from Lena Headey. I couldn't really see them introducing Lady Stoneheart with all the other stuff that's going on. Then again, if they do I'm calling this here:

She is the last scene as Brianne and Pod come upon her. You can't see her face as it's shrouded in her cloak and they take the camera shot of her from behind as you here her voice but never show her face.

BUT, it makes sense to end of the patricide of Tywin Lanister.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

So the finale being on Father's Day, coincidence or intentional? I believe the season started a week later than it normally does.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I think we'll also a farmer bringing bones to Daenerys and she'll find out the dragons have begun to eat humans (children). She freaks out and locks them up.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Mr. Soze said:


> My money is on Arya (Valar Morghulis), sailing off to Braavos.


May be my first accurate prediction of GoT.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mr. Soze said:


> May be my first accurate prediction of GoT.


The interesting thing is, while I'm pretty sure you're right, the ship was clearly shown as sailing north (towards the Wall) and not east (towards Braavos).


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I loved the finale, but I was disappointed that the Tysha reveal (Tyrion's first wife) didn't occur the same way. That was why he went to see Tywin before leaving. Also, Varys didn't go with Tyrion, did he?


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## dmaneyapanda (Jan 16, 2000)

jehma said:


> I loved the finale, but I was disappointed that the Tysha reveal (Tyrion's first wife) didn't occur the same way. That was why he went to see Tywin before leaving. Also, Varys didn't go with Tyrion, did he?


Same. And you don't know what happened to Varys, he just disappears. But then you start hearing hints about him disrupting things around Kings Landing. Then he kills Kevan after Cersei's fall.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

jehma said:


> I loved the finale, but I was disappointed that the Tysha reveal (Tyrion's first wife) didn't occur the same way. That was why he went to see Tywin before leaving.


Maybe this will spare us of the dozens of times Tyrion has to ask "Where do whores go?" as he wanders about Essos.

ETA: Less focus on Ramsay/Theon has also likely spared us many renditions of "My name is Reek, it rhymes with {meek, leek, freak, weak, ...}. And the complete absence of Moon Boy, and so far no mention I recall of House Kettleblack will save us from entirely too many utterances of "Cersei's been effing Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know." Praise the old gods and the new.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> Maybe this will spare us of the dozens of times Tyrion has to ask "Where do whore go?" as he wanders about Essos.


Heh, good point. I stopped enjoying his story outside of Kings Landing.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The interesting thing is, while I'm pretty sure you're right, the ship was clearly shown as sailing north (towards the Wall) and not east (towards Braavos).


I was kinda confused in a similar way. Aria asked the captain to take her to the Wall and he says the ship is headed to Braavos. Then she hands him the iron coin and he falls all over himself to transport her, but no one specifically says where she will be taken.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

sbourgeo said:


> I was kinda confused in a similar way. Aria asked the captain to take her to the Wall and he says the ship is headed to Braavos. Then she hands him the iron coin and he falls all over himself to transport her, but no one specifically says where she will be taken.


She said she wanted to go to the wall, but the captain said he wasn't going that way. She asked where, he said Braavos, she asked to go there offering to swab decks. He said something like "you don't have the money", she said I don't have gold, I have iron. She presented the coin and he took her in to go to Braavos.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Ok, all the talk of Rhaegar in the other thread dredged up my memory that he's introduced in the 5th book right? He's been hiding out being protected by someone, right?

**edit, NM, it was Aegon, Rhaegar's son.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

As far as I know, by the end of book 5 we still have no proof of Jon's parentage. This is why we need book 6, GRRM.  And as someone in the other thread pointed out, there are very few people alive any more who could tell us. They said that Jojen's father was there? Is he alive?

So Tywin had to finally accept that his grandkids are illegitimate and have no actual claim to the throne. Well, Tyrion got rid of one problem for Cercie. She should be thankful. 

There are not nearly enough ravens in this show. Couldn't Stannis have sent a raven telling them to hold on until he gets there?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I think they conveniently forget about ravens in the show. I seem to remember Sam being the ravenmaster at the wall and sending ravens to ask for help.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

They also seem to have skipped the Horn of Joramun on the show.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

john4200 said:


> They also seem to have skipped the Horn of Joramun on the show.


I think that was something that was easily dropped along with the "magical" aspects of the wall not letting the WW through. I still wonder how the show is going to get the WW over the wall. (After all, it was built not to keep out free folks, but rather the WW's.)


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Didn't Sam find an ornate horn burried with the dragon glass at the Fist?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Yep..Interesting. I think they'll leave it out.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Old_warhorn


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

heySkippy said:


> Didn't Sam find an ornate horn burried with the dragon glass at the Fist?


If that is the Horn of Joramun, then it is (probably) a change from the book, because everyone in the books seemed to think the Horn was huge. Of course, the Horn seen in the book was probably a fake, so the real Horn in the book (if it exists) may not actually be as large as everyone seemed to think.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Lol, I get called out for posting a theory I had regarding Jaquen Hagar. They think I put a spoiler in.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

jehma said:


> Also, Varys didn't go with Tyrion, did he?


There was a clear shot of Varys hearing the bells start ringing, he turns then sits next to Tyrion's crate on the boat.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

In the books, Varys wasn't there, was he? Was the crate sent to Illirio? (ok, I have no idea how to spell his name or what it is--the fat guy who took in Dany and her brother)


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> In the books, Varys wasn't there, was he? Was the crate sent to Illirio? (ok, I have no idea how to spell his name or what it is--the fat guy who took in Dany and her brother)


I don't think so. But I admit my memory is rusty regarding a lot of these things.

I was initially confused by Jojen dying and thought maybe I had forgotten...but no, I was right. He did not die in the books and made it into the tunnels with the rest.

I wonder why the change?


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Varys was completely MIA from the end of book 3 until the end of book 5. It was my impression that he never left Kings Landing, and instead had inhabited the secret areas of the Red Keep, but there wasn't anything I recall in the book to make one conclude that.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I think all those that died in the show but not in the books were likely validated by JRRM as not having any significant impact to the future storyline. Jojen might have lived in the books, but I don't think he was impacting the story anymore. Would be funny if a character producers off is supposed to win the throne


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I figure Jojen wasn't going to be needed going forward so they got rid of another actor on the show. In this case, the writer's know more than we do because all we know is Jojen is in the tunnels with Bran and The Children.

I wonder how they are going to explain in the show how Theon escapes. He wouldn't leave, in the series, when his sister came to get him but he's going to escape with "Arya"?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> In the books, Varys wasn't there, was he? Was the crate sent to Illirio? (ok, I have no idea how to spell his name or what it is--the fat guy who took in Dany and her brother)


In the book, we have no idea what happened with Varys. Last we saw of him, he was in the tunnels waiting for Tyrion when Tyrion decided to go see his father. We don't see him again until the Epilogue of book 5. We do know that he wasn't found anywhere in the city after Tyrion escaped. Maybe we will learn what he was up to in one of the later books. Jaime had the hidden areas of the Tower of the Hand torn apart and then the whole thing was burned by Cersei. So it is unlikely he was there, anyway. We know from the book and a little in the series that he was great at changing himself to "be" someone else. He could have been in King's Landing the entire time.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

What do you think happened to Jaime? He went off with Brienne when Brienne came and told him she had found Arya. We know Arya is no where near Westeros and it certainly seemed like Lady Stoneheart killed Brienne. So what's up with that?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

It seemed like Lady Stoneheart was ABOUT to kill Brienne, then Brienne yelled out something that may have stopped her execution.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Not sure where to put this, but don't want to start a new thread...

There has been much discussion on how many seasons GoT will run on HBO. First they said seven, then there was talk of eight. According to HBO, it will run for seven seasons. So we have three more.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/07/10/game-of-thrones-hbo-book/



> The Thrones showrunners plan to finish the series in seven seasons, with next years fifth season drawing heavily from Martins fourth and fifth novels in the saga (A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons). So seasons six and seven are expected to be culled from either as-yet-unpublished materialshould Martins next novels The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring not come out before each seasonor pave its own way.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

You Know Nothing Jon Snow, But We Know Who Your Mother Is

Interesting theory, hadn't heard it before.

Don't click on video if you don't want to hear/see the theory


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I've heard this theory before. It's been mentioned here, probably in spoilers. But this is a very good listing of the reasons behind it.

The problem that this theory brings up relating to the importance of Jon, is


Spoiler



didn't GrrM just kill him off at the end of book 5?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I think most people believe that Jon is either not completely dead, or that he will be brought back to life.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I've heard this theory before. It's been mentioned here, probably in spoilers. But this is a very good listing of the reasons behind it.
> 
> The problem that this theory brings up relating to the importance of Jon, is
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Did he really die? I suspect he has a large role to come so I don't think he will die although I don't know how he will be saved or if he will return from the dead. There is more than one back from the dead in the books...


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

There is no need to hold a discussion in spoiler tags. The subject of the thread states that all books are fair game for discussion.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I know, but I live in terror of spoiler Nazis. I take no chances.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

The theory does makes sense. Nicely explained too.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I don't believe he's dead. I think he's the ice of Ice and Fire.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

It certainly is one of the most plausible fan theories.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

jehma said:


> I don't believe he's dead. I think he's the ice of Ice and Fire.


I agree his chapter ends conveniently in a way that should mean he's dead but we never get an outsiders account of afterwards.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I originally thought it would be Jon vs Dany for the throne but now there is Dany's nephew to consider. He has a better claim than she does.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

> George RR Martins The Winds of Winter: no plans for publication in 2015
> 
> Fans face a long wait for the sixth novel in the bestselling A Song of Ice and Fire series, but a new edition of three previously anthologised novellas set in the Game of Thrones world is due in October.


http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/30/george-rr-martin-the-winds-of-winter-publication


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

For the sample chapters that have been released for book 6 has there been any indication whether they are the first x consecutive chapters or are they likely something like chapter 1,3,4,6 etc. Or maybe the order hasn't been finalized yet? They do have to be the first chapter for each character, right?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

There have been sample chapters released?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

stellie93 said:


> There have been sample chapters released?


More excerpts than complete chapters, although some of the longer excerpts may indeed be entire chapters. Anyway, here is the most comprehensive list I have seen of excerpts from _Winds of Winter_. Spoilers, obviously.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/03/how-much-winds-of-winter-is-out#more


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-game-of-thrones-using-the-magic-of-geometry/



> If his pace continues, we can use the magic of linear interpolation to predict that we should see Winds of Winter come out some time in 2017, with A Dream of Spring hitting in 2023, just in time for Martin's 75th birthday.


Since the showrunners have specified seven seasons, the last season will air in 2017. If the prediction above is true, then the show will wrap up the same year that book 6 is released, and book 7 will not come out until 6 years after the show has finished.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

So, the other thread is all in a tizzy over what might be a spoiler in the poster for the latest season of GoT on HBO. However, as I remember, even in the books Tyrion hasn't met Dany or her dragons yet has he?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I thought I was doing a PSA for the Facebookers and other social media users who would surely see a blurb about new GoT poster. On second thought I can see that by confirming it as a spoiler I directly influence those who have seen it to view it in a different context. I don't wish to delete the post now that the damage is done, but wonder if I can edit the post to be less specific, but I honestly don't know how.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

what is the spoiler?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> what is the spoiler?


It shows what maybe in Tyrion's destiny this season. In the fifth book Tyrion is tapped to go and join Dany and her army. The image on the poster shows him coming across Drogon. Since no one from Dany's story has crossed paths with anyone else from Westoros I thought the poster would be seen by some non book readers as an indication that that is about to change.

I was wrong, apparently.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

The poster definitely does not show a scene from the books, so it's not a spoiler in the sense of revealing something definitively known from the already written storyline.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> The poster definitely does not show a scene from the books, so it's not a spoiler in the sense of revealing something definitively known from the already written storyline.


That's a spoiler!! Now I know something that's not going to happen!!


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Spoiler thread, dude. Read the title.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> The poster definitely does not show a scene from the books, so it's not a spoiler in the sense of revealing something definitively known from the already written storyline.


Thanks. That's what I thought. I wanted to go in there and tell them that it's not a spoiler from the books, but I figured someone would lose their **** and accuse me of giving a non-spoiler spoiler. Whatever that is.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, I try my best to stay out of discussions over what constitutes a spoiler. It's like arguing religion or abortion, only nasty.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> It shows what maybe in Tyrion's destiny this season. In the fifth book Tyrion is tapped to go and join Dany and her army. The image on the poster shows him coming across Drogon. Since no one from Dany's story has crossed paths with anyone else from Westoros I thought the poster would be seen by some non book readers as an indication that that is about to change.
> 
> I was wrong, apparently.


But we (non-book-readers) knew at the end of the season, where Tyrion was headed, so it was pretty obvious (to anyone who reads books or watches movies/tv) that these two main characters will meet up somehow.

Just like the very first time I saw the dragon eggs introduced I said "There will be dragons".


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

No reason we can't use this one for the current season is there?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

For clarity's sake, shouldn't we have a Season 5 one though?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

meh.  Maybe get a mod to change the title of this one.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> For clarity's sake, shouldn't we have a Season 5 one though?


Yes


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Went ahead and created a Season 5/Book spoiler thread.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Went ahead and created a Season 5/Book spoiler thread.


Thanks, now I have start my re-read


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