# Verizon FIOS vs. Comcast



## nibeck (Jun 25, 2002)

I just ordered my S3, with the plan on moving from Directv to Comcast. Wouldn't you know, the day after I purchased the S3, a ton of Verizon contractors showed up in our neighborhood running a TON of cable. I'm assuming this is fro FIOS service. I plan on contacting them to see.

Anyway, any opinions on if I should go with Comcast or Verizon? Based on my initial research, the s# works with either. I would love FIOS. I don't know when Verizon will actually begin offering service, but I assume it won't be terribly long after cable is done.

_mike


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Don't hold your breath. They came through my neighborhood quite a while ago laying orange conduit and junction boxes every two houses. I was all excited about a competitor for Comcast. It has been months now and they have still not pulled actual fibers through the conduit.


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## snead (Sep 17, 2001)

It may be just as well, search around the forums a bit, you may want to hold off a bit on FIOS... I wouldn't say I regret going with them just yet, but so far it's not going well.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=347640


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

nibeck said:


> I just ordered my S3, with the plan on moving from Directv to Comcast. Wouldn't you know, the day after I purchased the S3, a ton of Verizon contractors showed up in our neighborhood running a TON of cable. I'm assuming this is fro FIOS service. I plan on contacting them to see.
> 
> Anyway, any opinions on if I should go with Comcast or Verizon? Based on my initial research, the s# works with either. I would love FIOS. I don't know when Verizon will actually begin offering service, but I assume it won't be terribly long after cable is done.


FiOS does not use rate shaping on its high-definition, so they offer the highest picture quality available in the U.S. That said, quality should be comparable on Comcast, so long as you live in the ~90% of Comcast service areas with modern 750-860MHz systems. Older systems acquired from AT&T, Time Warner, and/or Adelphia may not offer the same quality. Thus far, Comcast -- unlike Dish Network, DirecTV, Charter, Cox, and Time Warner -- has decided not to trade quality for quantity [on its newer systems] when it comes to high-definition.

My Verizon FiOS bill with 15Mbps Internet, FiOS Premier, one HDTV DVR, and one STB is $99.72/mo, of which $4.30 is taxes and fees. FiOS Premier includes 200+ digital channels and 25 HDTV channels. All high-definition channels are at full resolution and full bitrate.

High definition channels (no extra charge)

801 FOX HD
802 CBS HD
803 ABC HD
804 PBS HD
805 MYNetworkTV HD
806 PBS HD
807 NBC HD
808 CW HD
825 TNT HD
826 ESPN HD
827 ESPN 2 HD
828 NFL Network HD
833 HD Net
834 HD Net Movies
835 Universal HD
836 Discovery HD
837 Wealth TV HD
838 National Geographic Channel HD
839 MTV HD
840 FOOD HD
841 Lifetime Movie HD
845 HGTV HD

Premium HDTV channels (not included)

851 HBO HD
852 Cinemax HD
853 Showtime HD
854 TMC HD
855 Starz HD

FiOS currently has an overwhelming advantage when it comes to channel capacity. FiOS dedicates 860MHz system for traditional 256QAM digital cable service. FiOS' VOD, PPV, VoIP, and Internet is provided by a separate wavelength of fiber that does not take away any capacity from digital television service. At a glance, the capacity isn't _that different_ from Comcast, which now has 750MHz and 860MHz systems in most markets. Of course, Comcast must divide its bandwidth between television, VOD, PPV, VoIP, and Internet, something FiOS does not have to do.

The substantial difference in capacity between FiOS and Comcast is due primarily to the number of analog channels on the respective systems. Each analog channel consumes 6MHz bandwidth. The average FiOS system has about 15 analog channels, leaving 860MHz - 15(6MHz) = *770MHz* exclusively for digital SD and HD. In contrast, the average Comcast system has 70 analog channels, leaving 860MHz - 70(6MHz) = *440MHz* or 750MHz - 70(6MHz) = *330MHz* to divide between digital SD and HD, VOD, PPV, VoIP, and Internet.

Comcast is working to transition customers to digital service, so they can eliminate analog channels and free up capacity for new HDTV channels. At full quality, 1080i HDTV channels consume 3MHz and 720p HDTV channels consume 2MHz (assuming 256QAM). Hence, every 6MHz analog channel on Comcast consumes the equivalent of two 1080i channels or three 720p HDTV channels. Once Comcast eliminates many of its analog channels -- as they recently did in Chicago, reducing their analog lineup from 69 to 34 channels --- they'll be in a much better position as far as HDTV channel capacity.

In the meantime, FiOS offers more high-definition channels with equal or better quality -- at a lower "regular price." Comcast service areas often match FiOS in cost with promotions, but those promotions don't last forever.

FiOS offers CableCards, just like every other provider, and unlike Comcast, they have no intention of ever using Switched Digital Video (SDV). *That said, there is a serious issue with FiOS and the Tivo Series3.* The current Series3 v8.1 software is not 100% compatible with all FiOS channels in many areas; on those channels, you get constant pixelization. This must be a Tivo problem, because you do not see this pixelization with the FiOS Motorola DVR, nor do you see it with the CableCard tuners built into many TVs. FiOS and Tivo are reportedly working together to figure this out, but it's not known if or when there will be a solution.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I LOVE my Fios service. But just because they may be laying FiOS in your area doesn't mean you'll be able to get the TV service. It still only available in limited areas. There's still people in the Texas area that are waiting to get the TV service even though they have the FiOS internet service. And you can't beat the price. We get digital cable quality at half the price you pay for digital cable.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

FiOS is great, but it may be months before you get just their internet service. FiOSTV may take a year or longer depending on your local cable authority.

I pay about $88 per month {$35 for 5/2 internet (yearly rate minus $5 discount for having FiOSTV, too) + $43 for FiOSTV Premier + $6 for two CableCards ($3 per card per month) + $4 in fees per month}

With Comcast I paid $96 per month {about $43 for upload speeds of about 128kbps (0.128, when I even got that) plus about $53 for Expanded Basic}. Comcast Internet price was discounted by $15 per month because I had Cable TV (alone it was $58 per month).

Needless to say I am paying less for a whole lot more.

(also, the $43 monthly price for FiOSTV includes one set-top box)


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## Quake97 (Apr 24, 2006)

The time between laying the fibre in the street and getting the service can be a LONG time. You'll probably want to ask this question in 6-12 months.

Joe


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## nibeck (Jun 25, 2002)

OK, thanks everyone for the replies. Great info.

I did call Verizon, and as expected they could not give me a date for actual service activation. The rep said "it shouldn't be too long". Not sure I believe him.

Anyway, I don;t think I can stand the S3 being in a box while waiting for Verizon. I'll probably go with Comcast and their 12 month deal, and I'll follow he progress of the Verizon install.

Thanks again and I can;t wait to fire up the S3. Been a DiercTivo user since it first came out and love Tivo. I've just ahd enough of DirecTV.

_mike


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

I love my FiOS service, though, they've COMPLETELY blown up their billing system recently for those of us that choose NOT to take voice service. Typically, it takes VZ 8-9 months between planting cable and offering service


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

It took Verizon several months (10-12) to begin offering internet services. About 6 months after that to offer video.

Two Verizon marketers stopped by today to talk about their offering and had a $99 deal for tv, phone, and internet for 24 months.

They specifically said they do not offer cable cards so that's no deal for me, I'm not giving up my S3.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Gregor said:


> They specifically said they do not offer cable cards so that's no deal for me, I'm not giving up my S3.


Verizon offers CableCards. Unfortunately, the people they hire to walk door to door, hand out flyers, and get sign-ups when they first enter a new area / neighborhood are often not very informative.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

I have a Moto CableCard from VZ in my S3.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> Verizon offers CableCards. Unfortunately, the people they hire to walk door to door, hand out flyers, and get sign-ups when they first enter a new area / neighborhood are often not very informative.


I'm finding that out. A neighbor was getting Verizon TV installed, and I stopped by to ask the technician about cable cards and S3 and got the following answer;

"I don't think our cable cards work with Tivo".

Think I'll wait a few months, see if they get the pixelation problems fixed first.


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## Gerhard (Sep 29, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> Verizon offers CableCards. Unfortunately, the people they hire to walk door to door, hand out flyers, and get sign-ups when they first enter a new area / neighborhood are often not very informative.


I've noticed that they do not make ANY mention of CableCARDs on their website when you go to sign up for the service...

...So I've got no idea if they are available in all areas.

I do have FIOS internet, and I'd give almost anything not to deal with ComCast (CrapCast as I call them)....


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Gerhard said:


> I've noticed that they do not make ANY mention of CableCARDs on their website when you go to sign up for the service...


See their CableCard FAQ:
http://www22.verizon.com/content/fiostv/customer+support/faqs/faqs.htm
Last tab to the right.


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## Gerhard (Sep 29, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> See their CableCard FAQ:
> http://www22.verizon.com/content/fiostv/customer+support/faqs/faqs.htm
> Last tab to the right.


It's still interesting how it not a selection anywhere on the order part of the site...

...but thanks.


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## amigabill (May 4, 2007)

Can anyone comment on S3 + FIOS in Howard County, Maryland? They're beginning to market the service as available in my neighborhood now, but I know nothing about frequencies and such things around here.


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## Joe Q (Apr 21, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> FiOS does not use rate shaping on its high-definition, so they offer the highest picture quality available in the U.S. That said, quality should be comparable on Comcast, so long as you live in the ~90% of Comcast service areas with modern 750-860MHz systems. Older systems acquired from AT&T, Time Warner, and/or Adelphia may not offer the same quality. Thus far, Comcast -- unlike Dish Network, DirecTV, Charter, Cox, and Time Warner -- has decided not to trade quality for quantity [on its newer systems] when it comes to high-definition.
> 
> My Verizon FiOS bill with 15Mbps Internet, FiOS Premier, one HDTV DVR, and one STB is $99.72/mo, of which $4.30 is taxes and fees. FiOS Premier includes 200+ digital channels and 25 HDTV channels. All high-definition channels are at full resolution and full bitrate.


I have been with Directv for about 10 years and many equipment changes -currently I have the HR 10-250 HDTIVO. 
Due to a recent TV 'upgrade' (went from a 50" 720P Plasma to a 52" 1080P LCD) that I did, I am thinking about dumping Directv and switching to Verizon FIOS.

*I am looking into switching to FIOS because the new TV REALLY shows how poor Directv's 'HD Lite' HD programming actually is.*

I already dropped the Directv optional HD package and have used the savings to increase my Netflix membership since I can play both High def DVD formats.

An additional reason is that I can save a bundle every month if I also switch my internet service and telephone to FIOS.

So with that out of the way, I would really appreciate a few answers to the following questions. This would be a big change for me so I want to make sure that I am doing the smart thing.
I would have asked via a PM but I think the answers from you as well as other posters will be of use to some forum readers.

1) How would I go about checking if I do I fall in that 90% category for getting the best Picture Quality? I live about 5-10 miles from Annapolis,MD

2) In looking at ala carte packaging, I come up with *$58.78 for TV service *($42.99 Basic Package + $12.99 HD PVR + 5% tax), *$52.49 for Internet service *($49.99 for 15 mbit + 5% tax) for a *total of $111.27 per month*

*How is it that you are able to get a lot more than me (Premier,extra STB) for $99.72 per month?*

I called Verizon to see about one of their bundle packages but they said that all their bundle packages only allow for 5 mbit Internet.

3) Verizon's website says nothing about cable Cards.
What is the purpose of a CableCard and do I have to have one of them?

4)I was going to get a Series 3 for FIOS TV but thanks to your post, I need to look into that some more.
When the bugs that you have pointed out are fixed I will get an S3 but I read somewhere that you need 2 cable Cards on the Series 3 if you want dual tuner capability.
Is that true and what does it cost for 2 cable Cards?

Here is an interesting post that really shows the cruddy picture that Directv is putting out compared to Cable
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10415789&&#post10415789

Thanks for any info you can provide.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Joe Q said:


> 2) In looking at ala carte packaging, I come up with *$58.78 for TV service *($42.99 Basic Package + $12.99 HD PVR + 5% tax), *$52.49 for Internet service *($49.99 for 15 mbit + 5% tax) for a *total of $111.27 per month*
> 
> *How is it that you are able to get a lot more than me (Premier,extra STB) for $99.72 per month?*


FiOS doesn't list their bundling discounts on the site. In many service areas, you get $5/mo off for subscribing to TV and Internet and $10/mo off if you subscribe to TV, Internet, and phone. You get another $5/mo off if you commit to a year of service.

Two months ago, the price on FiOS TV service increased from $39.99/mo to $42.99/mo, but unlike Comcast, where all price cuts are retroactive, existing customers were grandfathered in at the older price. The same goes for the DVR; on July 13, FiOS increases the price of the DVR from $12.99 to $15.99/mo, but that change doesn't affect customers that already have the DVR. Only new DVRs added after July 13 are subject to the new price.



> I called Verizon to see about one of their bundle packages but they said that all their bundle packages only allow for 5 mbit Internet.


It may vary from state to state. I subscribed last year so I don't know if the bundle discount is still available for 15Mbps service in VA.

Last I heard, NY and NJ customers could get "triple play" service with FiOS TV, 20Mbps/5Mbps Internet, and VoIP phone service for $99/mo. Of course, that doesn't include the HDTV DVR, which would add another $12.99/mo.



> 3) Verizon's website says nothing about cable Cards.
> What is the purpose of a CableCard and do I have to have one of them?


CableCards provide the means by which the Series3 is able to decode encrypted digital cable channels. The Tivo Series3 has two CableCard slots in the rear, one for each tuner. Verizon charges $2.99/mo for Motorola MCARDs. Each of these cards is capable of supporting dual tuner functionality, but with the current Series3 software, they only function in single tuner mode, so you need two of them.



> When the bugs that you have pointed out are fixed I will get an S3 but I read somewhere that you need 2 cable Cards on the Series 3 if you want dual tuner capability.
> Is that true and what does it cost for 2 cable Cards?


Until Tivo supports the dual-tuner capability of the Motorola MCard (CableCard), you need two of them, or 2x$2.99 = $5.98/mo.

As an aside, FiOS just posted a preview of their upcoming FiOS v2.0 guide software for STBs and DVRs:

http://verizonfios.com/img/

It looks great, but doesn't change the fact that the FiOS DVR is limited to 160Gb capacity. There is still no word yet on a possible upgrade to enable eSATA.


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## simonkodousek (Apr 12, 2007)

nibeck said:


> I just ordered my S3, with the plan on moving from Directv to Comcast. Wouldn't you know, the day after I purchased the S3, a ton of Verizon contractors showed up in our neighborhood running a TON of cable. I'm assuming this is fro FIOS service. I plan on contacting them to see.
> 
> Anyway, any opinions on if I should go with Comcast or Verizon? Based on my initial research, the s# works with either. I would love FIOS. I don't know when Verizon will actually begin offering service, but I assume it won't be terribly long after cable is done.
> 
> _mike


FIOS is a great service with great rates and lots of selections. As a member posted above, he gets his 15 MBPS Internet service, and the FIOS Premier HD service for under $100 per month, with tax. My cable bill without tax is $75, and if I added a faster Internet connection with them, my bill would be about $150 per month. So, as you can see, FIOS is clearly a better service.

~Simon


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> As an aside, FiOS just posted a preview of their upcoming FiOS v2.0 guide software for STBs and DVRs:
> 
> http://verizonfios.com/img/
> 
> It looks great, but doesn't change the fact that the FiOS DVR is limited to 160Gb capacity. There is still no word yet on a possible upgrade to enable eSATA.


It's more than upcoming: new service area Fort Wayne, IN has it now. But you're right, it's the same hardware. I'll check with my contact (who's in the policy division, not FiOS) to see if he's heard anything or can check on external storage. I imagine the odds are low, but who knows...

EDIT: He said he'd look into it, but hasn't gotten back to me. I'm not feeling so hopeful.


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## Joe Q (Apr 21, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> FiOS doesn't list their bundling discounts on the site. In many service areas, you get $5/mo off for subscribing to TV and Internet and $10/mo off if you subscribe to TV, Internet, and phone. You get another $5/mo off if you commit to a year of service.


I left that part off for brevity. I am getting those discounts that you mentioned.

They came and installed Fios TV and 15/2 internet on Tuesday.
It was Immediatly apparant how much better the PQ is compared to Directv. Not just 'in my head' either

I ran a speed test on Speakeasy.com and got really close to 15 mbit download and 2 Mbit upload.
Everything I do on the net flies now. It is very noticable.

All this and I am saving about $20 over what I was paying for Directv and Comcast Internet.

I compared the same episode of 'Planet Earth' between my Blu Ray copy and Discovery HD theater and was really impressed with the PQ of DiscHD
The Fios picture was not as good as from the 1080P Blu Ray version,which I of course expected, but it was SO much better than my Directv copy which is still sitting on my HDTIVO.

SD channels look a whole lot better also. Finally, I can enjoy SciFi channel without b**ng about the blocky picture.
I am a happy camper.

I got the Motorola 6416 HDDVR with the 160 Gbyte disc. It has Well thought out SW.
With the exception of being able to search for programs to record by channel, which I use a lot, it has all the features that I used on my HDTIVO (never used Wishlists).

The skip button is not as 'smooth' as the 30 second backdoor skip on the HDTIVO because sometimes you end up hitting it more than once and bounce too far but at least I can get through commercials.

Really welcome feature is % disc space used indicator. Since the High Def channels are much less compressed than Directv, I got up to 50% used within the 2 days that I have had this thing.

So the drawback is that small 160Gbyte disc BUT
If I can get the Firewire transfer working (using the instructions on avsforum), I can not see the $$ justification for a Series 3.

Joe


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## Ziggy86 (Jun 23, 2004)

How are the Verizon DVR's?


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## Generic (Dec 27, 2005)

Here is a sneak peek at FiosTV IMG 2.0. It is currently deployed in Fort Wayne, Indiana and will be deployed nationwide in spring/summer 2007. It looks really good.

http://verizonfios.com/img/


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Joe,

Since you just got a faster connection, you might want to bookmark this site:

http://www.davestrailerpage.co.uk/

With the 15Mbps plan, you can watch and stream most 1080p trailers in real time. Of course, server throughput varies between Apple and Yahoo sites. I could never do that with Comcast, which would peak at 16-18Mbps with PowerBoost, but only for short periods of 15-30 seconds.


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## amigabill (May 4, 2007)

Ziggy86 said:


> How are the Verizon DVR's?


I've had mine for a couple months, since late August. The first box kept turning itself off, which I was told was a common occurrence with the new (at the time) software push. They replaced it anyway. Their guide is wrong more often than Tivos was under my old analog-only Comcast cable, and I got a few wrong shows recorded under names I would have watched, and went to "live" channels that had things other than what the guide said a few times as well. This happened with my Series2 on occasion, but not as much as with Verizon's guide. Both boxes have had a number of recordings refuse to play back, giving a "Bad Recording" error and suggestion that it was froma channel I don't subscribe to. These were comedy central, CW, and other channels that I very much do subscribe to in the default service in the triple-play package. I received my HD Tivo today to replace it, I just have ot call Verizon to bring cablecards and take their POS back. At $20/month, Verizon's HD DVR is unacceptable.


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## amigabill (May 4, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Until Tivo supports the dual-tuner capability of the Motorola MCard (CableCard), you need two of them, or 2x$2.99 = $5.98/mo.


Is Tivo's need for two Mcards a hardware weakness or a software weakness that can be updated to only require a single Mcard? A friend has a Series3 and said today that he thought the hardware may not be capable of using a single Mcard to enable both tuners, and for single Mcard use one would need to buy a new Tivo box that can handle that in hardware. I just got my HD Tivo today, and would rather only pay one cablecard rental fee/month instead of two. Will I be able to use only a single Mcard to run both tuners after a software update to enable that? Is such a software update in the works?


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

They strung FiOS cables in my neighborhood back in January. They still don't have any timetable for actual service in my town -- although the much wealthier town next door (Montclair) has it.

Currently a TiVo HD *can* use a single M-card to run both tuners but a Series 3 TiVo still needs two M-cards.


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## Keith Mickunas (Jul 23, 2003)

I've had FIOS for close to one year. I love the video quality, but I hated the PVR. I just replaced it with a TivoHD and I couldn't be happier. 

Prior to FIOS I had Comcast, and prior to that I had Dish. The quality difference of SD channels is noticeable. I would hate to have to switch to another service. 

That being said, I do find their CS to be awful. To get through to a person and get a problem taken care of takes a long, long time. And then they want you to sit around the house for hours waiting for a tech to show up to do something simple like swap out your box because they don't have a local office where you can do that yourself. I had my PVR replaced a few months ago because the first one had issues with one tuner on certain channels. It took 5 or 6 phonecalls, each a minimum of 10 minutes, before I finally had that resolved. The second PVR had issues too. Both boxes would occasionally just not record a show that it was showing it was going to record. Or it wouldn't play back a recorded show, although sometimes power cycling would fix that. The fast forward and rewind features were problematic at times. The second box would not always show the video while using those, it would just freeze the video. Hard to see when you are through. If you use the 4x speed it would jump wildly and not update the status bar in time and you could easily end up at the end of a show and be bounced back to the menu have to start from the beginning. All in all it was a horrible device. 

When I called to get rid of the PVR and get the cablecards I was told by the CSR that the cablecards might not support HD. That was just flat out wrong. When the tech arrived he didn't think it'd work with Tivo. I pretty much had to guide him through the whole process. But it worked. I'm paying $2.99 for each card, vs. $12.99 for their PVR. With the cost of the Tivo service I'm paying a bit more, but it's much, much, much better. 

Oh, another nice thing about FIOS, if you get FIOS you get HD, no extra fees other than having to have a better box (or something that takes a cablecard). Also for around $12 a month you get all of Showtime, Starz, Encore, The Movie Channel, Sundance and IFC. All of them, including the HD channels. That's a great price. 

I was paying $111 and change a month for 5/2mbps internet service, FIOS TV, the above mentioned movie package, and the PVR. I don't recall mention of a 1 year contract discount or anything like that when I subscribed.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

amigabill said:


> Is Tivo's need for two Mcards a hardware weakness or a software weakness that can be updated to only require a single Mcard? A friend has a Series3 and said today that he thought the hardware may not be capable of using a single Mcard to enable both tuners, and for single Mcard use one would need to buy a new Tivo box that can handle that in hardware. I just got my HD Tivo today, and would rather only pay one cablecard rental fee/month instead of two. Will I be able to use only a single Mcard to run both tuners after a software update to enable that? Is such a software update in the works?


The TivoHD only needs a single MCARD to support dual tuners. The limitation you refer to is specific to the older Series3.

However, FiOS doesn't offer MCARDs yet, so two "S" Cards will be required. Comcast does offer MCARDs.


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## dubluv (Mar 3, 2006)

amigabill said:


> Is Tivo's need for two Mcards a hardware weakness or a software weakness that can be updated to only require a single Mcard? A friend has a Series3 and said today that he thought the hardware may not be capable of using a single Mcard to enable both tuners, and for single Mcard use one would need to buy a new Tivo box that can handle that in hardware. I just got my HD Tivo today, and would rather only pay one cablecard rental fee/month instead of two. Will I be able to use only a single Mcard to run both tuners after a software update to enable that? Is such a software update in the works?


the tivoHD already is capable of using one M Card. you will not have to wait, just use the right (number 1) slot


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