# Netflix issues



## TiVoStephen

Thanks everyone for using Netflix (as well as reporting the various issues some of you have experienced). I wanted to reiterate all of the known issues with Netflix, some of which have been discussed in other threads.

* Bad assets / Lip sync issues

If you watch a video and see excessive macroblocking or jerkiness, or lip sync issues, please contact Netflix at 1-877-NETFLIX (638-3549) to report the issue.

An asset is bad if you can reproduce the issue consistently.

Please note that the original PC client, XBox 360 units, and Roku units use a different set of video files than TiVo DVRs and the PC Silverlight player. Also, each video may be encoded in up to four different quality settings, and not all of the encodes may have the same issue. That's why Netflix would like customers to contact them via the phone regarding this issue, so that their agents, who are trained on the proper procedures, can assist with troubleshooting and diagnosis.

* Blank video for the first several seconds of playback

Users may experience a condition where during initial playback start, or resumption of playback after trickplay, you will hear the audio, but video takes several seconds to appear. Once the video appears, playback should be normal and be working correctly.

* Issues regarding the maximum number of concurrent streams

Occasionally you may begin playback of a Netflix video on a device (whether a PC, XBox, Roku, or TiVo DVR) and encounter an issue where Netflix servers believe you are still playing back a previous video on one of these devices. Depending on your type of account, you may not be able to proceed with a new video playback session. Netflix's servers still believe that the original video is being played back in the previous session. This should clear itself automatically in most cases in two hours or twenty-four hours. If you have any difficulty, please contact Netflix customer support.

* Issues regarding freezes and reboots

If you lose network connectivity (for example, if your router is unplugged or your ISP has a hiccup or the cat chews through the Ethernet cable) while watching a Netflix video, you may experience a rare issue with your DVR becoming completely unresponsive to the remote.

If your DVR does freeze, the only solution is to reboot the unit.

However, if you still do not have network connectivity during the boot up process, the boot will not finish. So you MUST have a working network to reboot, if you experience a freeze while using the Netflix application. If your reboot seems to take a long time (e.g. more than 5 minutes) we suggest that you confirm your network is up and running (e.g. verify with a PC on the network).

We're continuing to investigate this issue and are working on a fix for a future release.

We apologize for these problems and thank you for your patience.


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## jrm01

I keep getting a recorded message "I'm sorry your call cannot be completed as dialed" when dialing XXX-XXX-XXX.


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## TiVo Steve

jrm01 said:


> I keep getting a recorded message "I'm sorry your call cannot be completed as dialed" when dialing XXX-XXX-XXX.


That's strange... I got dial-a-pornstar...


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## TiVoStephen

Corrected.


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## Krellion

TiVoStephen said:


> the cat chews through the Ethernet cable


I'm *always* having this problem! 

Thanks for the info.


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## Iluvatar

TiVoStephen,

Do you have any information on the sound issues with Netflix where 95% of the videos cause the audio output over HDMI to sound much higher pitched than normal which effects even the TiVo system sounds (beeps and boops) after exiting the Netflix app on the Main menu and the NPL. Netflix is pretty useless unless you switch to using component cables.

It has been discussed in this thread.

Thanks.


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## Dssturbo1

jrm01 said:


> I keep getting a recorded message "I'm sorry your call cannot be completed as dialed" when dialing XXX-XXX-XXX.


thats because your missing a digit......add that last X and it should go through.


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## moyekj

TivoStephen, there is also one more obscure bug that has been observed to add to your list:
After using Netflix application one is unable to see formatting changes on Closed Captions. Only a reboot (and avoiding use of Netflix) will fix it.


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## rainwater

Iluvatar said:


> TiVoStephen,
> 
> Do you have any information on the sound issues with Netflix where 95% of the videos cause the audio output over HDMI to sound much higher pitched than normal which effects even the TiVo system sounds (beeps and boops) after exiting the Netflix app on the Main menu and the NPL. Netflix is pretty useless unless you switch to using component cables.
> 
> Thanks.


Yeah, I had to switch to using the toslink cable to fix the problem. It is impossible to watch content using HDMI with the sound messed up. However, it doesn't bother me as it works fine with my workaround.


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## plumeria

rainwater said:


> Yeah, I had to switch to using the toslink cable to fix the problem. It is impossible to watch content using HDMI with the sound messed up. However, it doesn't bother me as it works fine with my workaround.


Did you plug the toslink in to a receiver or in to the TV? As you may know many of us (all using Pioneer receivers?) are unable to get any audio signal via toslink and have to use RCA cables :-(

thanks

peter


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## TiVoStephen

We're researching the audio issues. If you experience this problem, can you please send me an e-mail (not a PM) to [email protected] with the following information?

TiVo Service Number from System Information
Brand of audio receiver (if applicable) and brand of TV
Type of cable used to connect

We're also researching the closed caption settings issue.

Our apologies to those who have experienced any issues.

Best regards,
Stephen


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## tcorning

I just got home from being away a few days, and had the NetFlix
announcement on both my TivoHD and S3. I have NOT watched anything
on NetFlix and have not even selected the "Start NetFlix" option.

I've had the following issues:
THD - Once while watching a pre-recorded show, the screen went gray
and any button presses gave the "bonk", like the Emergency
Alert broadcasts used to do. But it lasted much longer (at
least a couple of minutes) and then went to Live TV.

THD - Once while watching the same pre-recorded show, TiVo went
to Live TV and gave the "bonk" response for any keys. This
went on for a few minutes.

BOTH- Both the S3 and TiVoHD recorded only Partials of Big Bang
Theory tonight - 29 minutes. There was no interruption in
the cable signal, as the S3 was also recording Chuck and
has no interruptions. Strange that both were the same
duration.

Since the NetFlix option is the only change since last week, it
seems the likely cause of these issues. I was also talking to a
friend who has seen the same issues, coincidentally around the
same time as I was seeing them.

Ted


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## TiVoStephen

Ted, if you haven't used the Netflix application, then this thread doesn't apply to you. The Netflix application itself doesn't change any of the code on your box. (The Netflix application runs on our servers, not on your box.)


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## TiVoStephen

If you have experienced a hard reset (like in this thread http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=412618), and your unit does not boot up, please make sure your DVR has a working network connection. Especially check the wired cable, and that the wireless adapter is working.

If after confirming that the network is restored, and your unit still does not boot up, please send me an e-mail ([email protected]) with the following information:
* TiVo Service Number
* Router model/make information
* Your zip code
* Your ISP

Best regards,
Stephen


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## tcorning

TiVoStephen said:


> Ted, if you haven't used the Netflix application, then this thread doesn't apply to you. The Netflix application itself doesn't change any of the code on your box. (The Netflix application runs on our servers, not on your box.)


Fair enough, it just seemed to coincidental that it happened right
after it was enabled, and on both boxes at the same time.

Thanks.
Ted


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## morac

TiVoStephen said:


> * Bad assets / Lip sync issues
> 
> If you watch a video and see excessive macroblocking or jerkiness, or lip sync issues, please contact Netflix at 1-877-NETFLIX (638-3549) to report the issue.
> 
> An asset is bad if you can reproduce the issue consistently.


Does this also cover the following case. 
On some videos, the video starts to play and then all the sudden a "retrieving popup" occurs and the video fast forwards and plays a bit and the "retrieving popup" occurs again. This happens over and over. It only seems to occur on S3 TiVos (HD/XL is fine).

Is this something that Netflix has to fix?



TiVoStephen said:


> * Blank video for the first several seconds of playback


I've seen cases on some videos (Pan's Labyrinth for example) where there is no audio for about 15 seconds then all the sudden it will pop in and work. I can then rebuffer go back to the beginning and the audio will play. Once again this seems to only affect my S3. Is this related?


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## prices10

tcorning said:


> Fair enough, it just seemed to coincidental that it happened right
> after it was enabled, and on both boxes at the same time.
> 
> Thanks.
> Ted


Same here - lock-ups/reboots started happening last night. I got the version 11 download on Friday, last night I tried the 'Start Netflix' option but didn't set up an account. Right after that all hell broke loose, freezing, pixellation, partial recordings and at least 3 reboots.


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## rainwater

plumeria said:


> Did you plug the toslink in to a receiver or in to the TV?


It goes straight to my Sony receiver. I have not had any issues with this setup.


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## S3-2501

I have a Series 3 and a TivoHD. Everything with Netflix has been fine on the TivoHD, but I have only been able to get one show to play on my S3. 

On the S3, the program starts and I either get audio only or video only. This does not resolve on its own. The one show that I got to play correctly was an old 4:3 cartoon. The other shows (that have failed to play properly) have been 16:9 ratio. These programs also stop repeatedly when first playing while the "retrieving" box repeatedly pops up. It seems almost like the S3 can't handle the throughput or something. Eventually the "retrieving" boxes stop and I am left with either only sound or only video.

I have tried restarting the shows, fast forwarding/rewinding, exiting and restarting the Netflix app, but noting fixed the problem. Just now I hit the Tivo button to exit Netflix and my S3 became non-responsive, requiring a hard reboot.

Both my S3 and TivoHD are connected wirelessly, with signal strength ranging from 80-90%. No network problems are apparent.

While composing this message, I tried playing a show once more, and it appears that my S3 has now locked up on the episode synopsis screen in the Netflix app. Off to reboot the box I go...

Please fix these issues Tivo! Again (to clarify) My TivoHD is working fine with Netflix, it's just my S3 that seems to be having these issues.


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## plumeria

rainwater said:


> It goes straight to my Sony receiver. I have not had any issues with this setup.


Thanks for clarification. Strangely enough I was playing Pans Labyrinth and had the toslink connected to the receiver by mistake - it normally does not work. However, the introduction "Showtime" trailer just before the movie started played fine, but as soon as the movie started there was silence. At that time I connected up the RCA cables.

Sound like a digital audio encoding issue and the way the Pioneer is handling it.
It has had no issues with anything else thrown at it up until now.

peter


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## TiVoStephen

For folks with audio trouble, if you take out the HDMI connection and use a different type of cable, do you still see the issue?


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## BigJimOutlaw

Ugh. I've gone through about 10 activation codes and I can't get the app to work.

I enter the activation code on the Netflix website, I get a "congrats" screen on the Tivo, and my movie queue will display fine. When I select the movie, then hit 'Play', after a few seconds I get "There has been an error with the activation of this DVR. Please try again with a new activation code."

Rinse and repeat. The application makes me enter a new code each time.


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## morac

Try deactivating on the web site and then activating again on the TiVo.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Just tried that again, no-go.


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## bicker

While folks are piling on their Netflix service troubles, I figure I might as well put ours in: Hearing impairment necessitates Closed Captioning supported and available on all content. 

Thanks!


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## jaredmwright

I have a Pioneer receiver and do not have HDMI connected to my Series 3. I use component and optical Digital out to my Pioneer. I still do not get audio over toslink to my Pioneer receiver. I hope this issue is addressed soon, because switching to analog RCA stereo for Netflix videos is definitely not "TiVo my way" I have brought this up multiple times to TiVo, but it seems to be a low priority. I can also reproduce this on my TiVo HD as well, so it does not seem specific to either model of TiVo, but to the way audio is handled while using Netflix when using a Pioneer receiver. I have also read of multiple people having this problem other than myself.

If there is anything I can do to help resolve the issue, please let me know as far as testing/troubleshooting goes.


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## rainwater

TiVoStephen said:


> For folks with audio trouble, if you take out the HDMI connection and use a different type of cable, do you still see the issue?


Nope. If I use HDMI into my tv and just use the internal speakers, I have this audio issue (strange high pitched audio). But if I use the toslink cable into my receiver and use the external speakers (disabling the internal tv speakers) it sounds fine.


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## Iluvatar

TiVoStephen said:


> For folks with audio trouble, if you take out the HDMI connection and use a different type of cable, do you still see the issue?


No if I use component cables then the issue goes away. However as I have limited connections this is not really an acceptable long term solution.


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## chales007

If you Tivo freezes what does it mean to reboot.

I ended up unplugging the Tivo, but there has to be a better way.


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## chales007

I have seen this issue with the movie "Real Genius" the audio is way out of sync.

I have also witnessed the audio where there is a high pitch to it.

Some of the movies get fixed when I use my receiver with a toslink optic audio. Some do not.

Right now I have a Samsung DLP TV and my Tivo is connected with an HDMI cable.

I think the model is HLS50___ I bought it 2 years ago.


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## edhara

chales007 said:


> I have seen this issue with the movie "Real Genius" the audio is way out of sync.
> 
> I have also witnessed the audio where there is a high pitch to it.
> 
> Some of the movies get fixed when I use my receiver with a toslink optic audio. Some do not.
> 
> Right now I have a Samsung DLP TV and my Tivo is connected with an HDMI cable.
> 
> I think the model is HLS50___ I bought it 2 years ago.


Almost the same setup, problem with the same movie.

TivoHD, Samsung 67" HL67A750 (or something like that), HDMI, toslink to a Denon receiver. Severe lip-sync issues, haven't heard the high pitch thing yet.


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## rocko

chales007 said:


> If you Tivo freezes what does it mean to reboot.
> 
> I ended up unplugging the Tivo, but there has to be a better way.


If there is a better way I haven't found it. Unplugging is the only way I know of to fix an unresponsive TiVo.


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## loosetoe

I seem to be the only one who had weird color on streaming vids. I can't say it's exclusive to Netflix since it happened on YouTube as well, but I find the problem odd and the solution (leaving the TiVo unplugged for several hours, even after multiple reboots failed) even stranger.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=412870

UPDATE: The solution doesn't seem to be one after all. Weird colors persist and have given way to a totally black and silent screen on Netflix. The timeline progresses, however, so it seems like some programming info is making it through.


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## S3-2501

The comments about HDMI got me thinking and I managed to find a work around fix for my S3 that may work for others with similar problems. Guessing that it may be a handshake problem when changing from the app resolution to the video resolution, I tried different output settings for my S3. I had it set on Native to begin with, and after trying the different options, the only one that worked with Netflix on my S3 was 480i fixed. This worked beautifully.

Unfortunately changing back to Native output when I returned to live TV seems to have locked up my S3. Is it possible many of the problems people are experiencing are due problems with how the Tivo handles HDMI output? My S3 is connected via HDMI to DVI cable with RCA audio to the TV. This is the first problem I've had related to this setup. I hope this is of help to someone...

**Update: This lock up doesn't want to resolve. Upon rebooting the S3 froze at the THX screen. On the second attempt it froze after the THX screen. On the third attempt I bypassed the startup movies by pressing the Tivo button, only to have it lock up navigating the settings menu. I have now disconnected the HDMI/DVI cable and have connected the S3 using RCA video. And, no go. Lock up at THX.

This is not good. Assuming I can get it up and running again, I will definitelyl be passing on using Netflix on my S3 for now...


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## shamilian

I have been watching netflix for the past 3 days.
Mostly the service is working well.

Some videos have an issue which causes no audio at all on the Tivo. One of the videos had audio for 5 minutes then no audio for the last part of the movie.

This is completely reproducible.

I called netflix and netflix claims to know about the problem, that it effects a small number of their videos. I think it has been between 5% to 10% of the videos I have tried so far.

The videos work fine on a PC, no audio issues.

Since it is reproducible I would think this is fairly straight forward. Hopefully these issues will be solved soon.


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## moyekj

shamilian said:


> The videos work fine on a PC, no audio issues.


 As noted by TivoStephen, unless you use the Silverlight player the encoding you are watching on PC is different than the one you get on the Tivo.


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## S3-2501

Just following up on my earlier posts. My tivo now seems to be dead. It will boot up to the THX screen and then freeze. If I bypass the THX screen, the menus freeze up the Tivo, and if I hit live TV at the THX screen the live TV locks up after about two seconds.

I've run every kickstart code I could find, and I am now waiting on the results of the SMART diagnostics on the main drive. If the drive passes, then the only thing left I can think of is that somehow my external drive couldn't cope with the Netflix stuff. 

I'd hate to loose all my saved programs, but I don't know what else to do...


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## morac

moyekj said:


> As noted by TivoStephen, unless you use the Silverlight player the encoding you are watching on PC is different than the one you get on the Tivo.


I use the Silverlight player and I'm still seeing some videos that play back fine in that, but won't play correctly on my S3.


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## shamilian

moyekj said:


> As noted by TivoStephen, unless you use the Silverlight player the encoding you are watching on PC is different than the one you get on the Tivo.


I used the Silverlight player as a test and it works perfectly.


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## simonalope

I'm also experiencing soundless Netflix videos. I had no activation issues and the first three videos I watched looked and sounded great, but this morning I'm getting no audio at all (on two different first season episodes of 30 Rock, two other episodes having worked fine last night).
This is on a THD connected via HDMI to a Philips LCD, no external speakers - I'll try switching to another audio connection.


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## S3-2501

One last update to conclude the story of how trying to watch Netflix has killed my S3. After the internal drive passed the diagnostics I removed my external drive. After the divorce procedure, the S3 booted to the point where the TiVo guy bows and then froze. I've gone through the various kickstart codes again, but it still won't boot without freezing. I guess I'll have to look into a replacement of some sort.  :down:


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## caspian31

My S3 doesnt freeze it just reboots itself every time I try to watch a netflix movie.


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## chapmangeo

Stephen, thanks for the concise summary of what is currently up with TiVo and NetFlix.

I find it interesting that a network hang would crash the TiVo, not just the applet - and even more interesting that this sets a state that survives a hard reboot. I would try programming that feature into our AIX servers, but I suspect it might cause a major leakage of customers to Solaris (grin).

More to the point: I use a wireless-N network to connect my television rack to the network, with my xbox, a (usually unused) SlingBox, and two TiVo's (a Series3 and a Humax DVD) connected on the TV side of the rack. (The underlying network is a Time Warner commercial grade cable internet.) Having read your note, I hooked up a PC into the rack and had it ping a server up at my Austin lab every 500 ms, logging gaps. Did not see a gap when the TiVo hung. I'll retry with a hardwired link but the ping test seems definitive...

In any case, I hope the future release containing the fix is not too far in the future. While I don't mind working the issue to debug it, my family is no longer trying to watch NetFlix via the Series3...


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## morac

S3-2501 said:


> One last update to conclude the story of how trying to watch Netflix has killed my S3. After the internal drive passed the diagnostics I removed my external drive. After the divorce procedure, the S3 booted to the point where the TiVo guy bows and then froze. I've gone through the various kickstart codes again, but it still won't boot without freezing. I guess I'll have to look into a replacement of some sort.  :down:


There's one last thing you can try. Unplug the ethernet cable (or the Wireless Network adapter if you are using that) from your TiVo box. This makes it think it's not network enabled and might get you past the spot where you froze.


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## S3-2501

morac said:


> There's one last thing you can try. Unplug the ethernet cable (or the Wireless Network adapter if you are using that) from your TiVo box. This makes it think it's not network enabled and might get you past the spot where you froze.


Thanks for the suggestion. I did try this, but then it hung at the "Almost There" screen. After 20 minutes I gave up. I called TiVo, and while the rep was very nice, none of his suggestions worked. He did make a case number and say he'd report the story to the appropriate people at TiVo.

I was surprised to learn that if I got a replacement S3 from tivo for $150, TiVo would only back it for 30 days. Instead, I've opted to try putting in a weakknees drive since it was on special today and can be returned if it doesn't fix the problem. If it's not too far off topic for this thread, I'll post back with the results of the new drive installation...

Thanks again for the suggestion!


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## Sennat

FWIW, I'm also experiencing some audio oddity on my S3 using Netflix streaming. I've been watching Heroes Series 1 ... usually I get ten bars, sometimes 11 (HD). Sometimes when starting an episode, I get all the background and ambience audio, but not the dialog. I have also seen the intro text ("Previously", I think it is) appear in what I assume is Japanese. It's like I'm watching a show that's prepared for dubbing. If I retry the same episode and get a feed that's full HD the audio is fine again.

In general, the Netflix/Tivo interface needs some work on the whole buffer/downrez scheme.

Sennat


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## dig_duggler

S3-2501 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I did try this, but then it hung at the "Almost There" screen. After 20 minutes I gave up. I called TiVo, and while the rep was very nice, none of his suggestions worked. He did make a case number and say he'd report the story to the appropriate people at TiVo.
> 
> I was surprised to learn that if I got a replacement S3 from tivo for $150, TiVo would only back it for 30 days. Instead, I've opted to try putting in a weakknees drive since it was on special today and can be returned if it doesn't fix the problem. If it's not too far off topic for this thread, I'll post back with the results of the new drive installation...
> 
> Thanks again for the suggestion!


Wow. Tivo has acknowledged a problem that might cause your unit to not boot (and based on chapmangeo' post doesn't even really seem to understand it) which seems to be your case and you pass hard drive tests and they still want $150?

Wow. Wow. Wow.

Could it be something else? Sure. But this is not taking care of your customers.


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## chales007

TiVoStephen said:


> For folks with audio trouble, if you take out the HDMI connection and use a different type of cable, do you still see the issue?


I have 3 ways to listen to audio on my TV from my Tivo Box using netflix.

1st.
I have an HDMI cable up to my Samsung DLP 50 inch. On some audio I am hearing a high pitch from everyone(Serpent and the Rainbow) and then some movies are out of sync(Real Genius).

2nd. I have an optic audio cable from my Tivo to my receiver. This usually fixes the high pitch audio but not the out of sync issues.

3rd.
I have a optical audio from my TV to the receiver. I hear high pitched tones and out of sync because the audio is getting to my TV through the HDMI then the audio is brought back down to my receiver with the optical audio.

So in conclusion if I watch some shows with the audio signal that is transmitted by a HDMI cable it can be high pitched and if i switch to the direct optical audio from my Tivo to receiver then it works fine.

I didn't try bringing up the red,white audio from tivo to TV.


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## fred2

chales007 said:


> If you Tivo freezes what does it mean to reboot.
> 
> I ended up unplugging the Tivo, but there has to be a better way.


Unfortunately, the Tivo do NOT have an on/off switch. UNplugging is the way around a FREEZE. If the unit is working, I believe from one of the setup menus that you can reboot. But once FROZEN, UNPLUG.

I really wish Tivo had an on/off switch. My tivo is in a cabinet and getting to its plug is not easy. The last time I tried (yup, netflix related) I managed to sever the external drive from the tivo since those darn esata cables don't connect all that securely. That took another 3 reboots to resolve.


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## S3-2501

dig_duggler said:


> Wow. Tivo has acknowledged a problem that might cause your unit to not boot (and based on chapmangeo' post doesn't even really seem to understand it) which seems to be your case and you pass hard drive tests and they still want $150?
> 
> Wow. Wow. Wow.
> 
> Could it be something else? Sure. But this is not taking care of your customers.


My S3 is out of warranty, so I'm on my own. The $150 is what they offer for out of warranty help. I wouldn't mind so much if the replacement came with a full TiVo warranty, but only standing behind it for a month is less than reassuring.

I get sound, video and picture right up until the freeze, so a new hard drive seems reasonable to try given what TiVo is offering instead. All I'm risking is the restocking fee and return shipping if it doesn't work. Ironically, if I understand it correctly, the warranty on the new drive will be better than what TiVo offers on its refurbished unit. If it works, I'll also have more recording space than I did before.

I agree this is definitely not the ideal support solution to offer, but it is worth noting that the people I talked with on the phone spoke clearly, seemed knowledgeable and were very kind and direct. This is far better than the experiences I've had with other consumer electronics companies.

Whatever happens in the end, I know it'll likely be quite a while before I try to view a Netflix movie on my S3 again!


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## dig_duggler

While you are out of warranty, it _seems_ they broke your box. If there's even a remote chance of that, a stand up company would foot the bill.


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## bicker

There's a big difference between what "seems" and what "is". Your assertion that a "stand up" company would foot the bill, even if there is "a remote chance of that" is self-fulfilling, and without foundation in objective evidence. Rather, in the mass-market, more and more, customers have to definitively prove fault before they can get out-of-warranty (and often in-warranty) service. This is a direct reflection of our society's dual push towards quarterly performance from the companies we invest in, and the lowest possible price from the companies we make purchases from.

A "stand up" company would live up to the promises it makes; not the promises you wish they'd make.


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## lew

S3-2501 said:


> My S3 is out of warranty, so I'm on my own. The $150 is what they offer for out of warranty help. I wouldn't mind so much if the replacement came with a full TiVo warranty, but only standing behind it for a month is less than reassuring.
> 
> I get sound, video and picture right up until the freeze, so a new hard drive seems reasonable to try given what TiVo is offering instead.


I agree a 30 day warranty is weak.

New software gets installed in the alternate partitions. A software upgrade can expose a failing drive, with the bad sectors being located in part of the drive wasn't previously being used.


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## dig_duggler

bicker said:


> There's a big difference between what "seems" and what "is". Your assertion that a "stand up" company would foot the bill, even if there is "a remote chance of that" is self-fulfilling, and without foundation in objective evidence. Rather, in the mass-market, more and more, customers have to definitively prove fault before they can get out-of-warranty (and often in-warranty) service. This is a direct reflection of our society's dual push towards quarterly performance from the companies we invest in, and the lowest possible price from the companies we make purchases from.
> 
> A "stand up" company would live up to the promises it makes; not the promises you wish they'd make.


Here's what is:

"If your DVR does freeze, the only solution is to reboot the unit.

However, if you still do not have network connectivity during the boot up process, the boot will not finish. So you MUST have a working network to reboot, if you experience a freeze while using the Netflix application. If your reboot seems to take a long time (e.g. more than 5 minutes) we suggest that you confirm your network is up and running (e.g. verify with a PC on the network)."

Which fits his description. Additionally, their explanation of why things are freezing/refusing to boot doesn't gel with chapmangeo's tests, so network connectivity may not be what restore performance. Couple that with TivoStephen's initial asssertion that bad performance was not a load issue, and then later saying it was and it sure sounds like they don't have a good grasp on the problem.

If a representative from Tivo confirms that a feature they've released might cause your unit not to boot properly, that is what 'is' a real possibility. And I stand by my statement. They should replace his box free of charge if there is a chance they introduced this problem. And if they don't, buyer beware. Now they not only have a reputation of company that might kill your box with software updates, they have the reputation of possibly doing that and charging you to get it fixed.


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## Just_Chris

I'll call netflix tonight when I get home on this.

Watching Heavy Metal, at the 16 minute mark it stops and puts me back at the main Tivo screen. Happened multiple times.


----------



## NJ Webel

Just_Chris said:


> I'll call netflix tonight when I get home on this.
> 
> Watching Heavy Metal, at the 16 minute mark it stops and puts me back at the main Tivo screen. Happened multiple times.


This has happened to me multiple times as well in the middle of watching "Raise the Titanic" last night (12/17/08).


----------



## MickeS

dig_duggler said:


> Wow. Tivo has acknowledged a problem that might cause your unit to not boot (and based on chapmangeo' post doesn't even really seem to understand it) which seems to be your case and you pass hard drive tests and they still want $150?
> 
> Wow. Wow. Wow.
> 
> Could it be something else? Sure. But this is not taking care of your customers.


Yeah, that's just wrong. Same thing happened to me when they killed my TiVo with the previous software update.
Here's what they should do: if a TiVo doesn't work after rebooting for a software update (they can easily check their connection logs to see if this is the case), they should replace it free of charge. Period.


----------



## bicker

Good luck with that. You _should_ expect _different _experiences when *the supplier *determines that they did cause a problem versus when *you *decide they did.


----------



## Brainiac 5

MickeS said:


> Here's what they should do: if a TiVo doesn't work after rebooting for a software update (they can easily check their connection logs to see if this is the case), they should replace it free of charge. Period.


I don't think it's as clear-cut as that. As several people have mentioned, the TiVo hard drive has two partitions for the software, and when a new update comes down it goes into the partition that is currently unused. Because of this, a new software update can reveal an already existing hardware problem (bad sectors in the previously unused partition). So just because the TiVo has a problem after the update, doesn't mean that the update caused it.


----------



## jmkrueger

I've experienced this error so many times, I had to reconnect my Roku box because I can't reliably access Netflix from my TiVo TCD658000 HD XL DVR.

My Tivo connects to the Tivo service without a problem and the strength of the connection between my Tivo and wireless network is always greater than 90% (excellent). I'm using the Tivo USB wireless adapter. 

Connecting to the Tivo service does not solve the problem. Neither does rebooting Tivo. The problem seems to resolve itself after enough time but then it happens again and again. 

Anyone else experiencing this issue?


----------



## dig_duggler

bicker said:


> Good luck with that. You _should_ expect _different _experiences when *the supplier *determines that they did cause a problem versus when *you *decide they did.


Determines or admits?

I'd be willing to bet that phone support is not even aware of the locking up your box via Netflix issue as described by TivoStephen. Has anyone who's experienced the problem have a customer support person acknowledge the issue?

S3-2501, if you feel like (and from the sound of it you won't) it you could contact the the consumerist  with your story. Sometimes bad PR can dramatically change a company's position.


----------



## Brainiac 5

dig_duggler said:


> I'd be willing to bet that phone support is not even aware of the locking up your box via Netflix issue as described by TivoStephen.


Probably true, from my experience.

The unfortunate thing is, that particular problem won't be fixed by replacing the unit. It's a problem in the software, so a replacement unit will do the same thing. It will only be fixed when TiVo pushes out a software update with a fix.


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## sriggins

We just experienced the freeze when Comcast decomissioned our modem in lieu of a docsis 3 modem. My Fiancé then rebooted the TiVo (before the network was up) and after 30 mins, I came here and found it needed a second reboot, so thanks for the info


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## MickeS

Brainiac 5 said:


> I don't think it's as clear-cut as that. As several people have mentioned, the TiVo hard drive has two partitions for the software, and when a new update comes down it goes into the partition that is currently unused. Because of this, a new software update can reveal an already existing hardware problem (bad sectors in the previously unused partition). So just because the TiVo has a problem after the update, doesn't mean that the update caused it.


I've read that explanation, and believed it until an update wrecked the installation on my perfectly fine HD. I simply do not believe that it's the major cause for software failures after updates anymore. It happens too frequently.

TiVo is the one pushing the update, they need to take responsibility for it. Maybe if it came out of their pockets, they would finally find a fix for this problem.


----------



## Golden

tivoStephen, this is just to reiterate what is all over these boards about Netflix streaming crashing the Tivo HD boxes, and some of them hanging at "Almost there, just a few minutes more" screen and going no further, making them useless. I was on the phone all afternoon with Tivo reps who say it is a coincidence that that happened just as I was starting an Instant movie from Netflix, and now I have to buy a new box. The one I have is only a few months old, and no way are we paying several hundred dollars for another one. THIS IS NO COINCIDENCE.

The descriptions of these crashes are described exactly the same way in this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=412618&page=2

Memphislim writes:

"My series 3 crashed and won't reboot. Watched 1/2 hour of netflix last night and this morniing it was locked up. When I took all the cc's out and unplugged the cable and network adaptor it still hangs on "a few more minutes" screen and won't go any further. Customer support was useless and now I have to pay the $49 fee plus $799 (refundable) for a replacement the would cost me $350 on the tivo site.

Anyone know how I can recover programs now or when the new box arrives?:"

[--------------

I hope that Tivo and Netflix will make this right, because obviously, this is a very serious issue.


----------



## morac

According to TiVoStephen's first post, the box needs to be able to access your network after it boots up after hanging or it won't boot. 

So my advice would be to reboot your router and then hard wire the TiVo directly to the router via ethernet. If that doesn't work then I don't know what will.


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## skitime69

I have had intermitant problems with Netflix since we started, but the last two days I have tried it, it just gets to the "waiting" screen, and either takes about 4-5 minutes to go back to the menu screen, or last night it froze on a blank screen, and had to unplug to reboot it. Anybody had any success lately? This is with a Series 3, and a wired network and cable broadband....


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## lautry

skitime69 said:


> I have had intermitant problems with Netflix since we started, but the last two days I have tried it, it just gets to the "waiting" screen, and either takes about 4-5 minutes to go back to the menu screen, or last night it froze on a blank screen, and had to unplug to reboot it. Anybody had any success lately? This is with a Series 3, and a wired network and cable broadband....


The last two nights I tried it I could not even access the VOD menu. It displayed please wait for 5 or ten minutes then returned to the main TIVO menu. This morning everything worked fine.This has to be a demand issue at night during prime time. This launch is still not right.


----------



## lautry

lautry said:


> The last two nights I tried it I could not even access the VOD menu. It displayed please wait for 5 or ten minutes then returned to the main TIVO menu. This morning everything worked fine.This has to be a demand issue at night during prime time. This launch is still not right.


By the way, I have a series three, wireless network and high speed cable broadband and a ROKU box that works just fine.


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## skitime69

Glad to hear it's not just me! I guess the Tivo servers are getting jammed up...


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## MickeS

I used Netflix on TiVo to watch bits and pieces of "Flash Gordon" last night around 9 PM (11pm eastern). Worked perfectly for me (Series 3 on a wired TiVo connection). I wonder if it makes a difference that I only have 6/11 on the quality, because of my slow 1.5Mbit internet connection, or if it's just that prime time is over on the east coast by this time.


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## Golden

morac, thanks, We'll try that hard wiring, although it's not going to be easy because of distance issues and not enough cable, etc. Although the first time the reboot wouldn't continue the wireless was up and working and it still hung. But it's worth trying again.

The Tivo rep on the phone said to unplug the wireless device when rebooting, and never said to hook it up when the screen wouldn't change, I hope they aren't too FUBAR over there.


----------



## lew

MickeS said:


> I've read that explanation, and believed it until an update wrecked the installation on my perfectly fine HD. I simply do not believe that it's the major cause for software failures after updates anymore. It happens too frequently.
> 
> TiVo is the one pushing the update, they need to take responsibility for it. Maybe if it came out of their pockets, they would finally find a fix for this problem.


The only way to confirm the status of your *perfectly fine HD* is to pull the drive and run extended (overnight) diagnostics. Tivo drives run 24/7 and don't last forever. Every software update exposes a number of failing drives.

It sounds like CSR need better information in order to help customers with Netflix related issues.


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## MickeS

lew said:


> The only way to confirm the status of your *perfectly fine HD* is to pull the drive and run extended (overnight) diagnostics.


Which I did, multiple times with multiple test software. The drive also worked fine once I wiped it.


----------



## S3-2501

I received the weaknees drive today (thanks to family willing to pay expedited shipping at even the slightest chance of restoring our S3 to working order.)

I installed it without incident and am happy to report that it seems to have done the trick. The drive came with v9.4 software, so it'll be interesting to see what happens when it gets updated. I'll definitely be following this thread in the meantime...


----------



## RoyK

Tonite "Video On Demand" insists my HD is not enabled for video download (it is - I've been using Netflix with few problems) and directed me to the website to enable it. Of course the box is checked. I unchecked it and saved and rechecked it and saved again. Lord knows what will happen in the morning.
Come on TiVO.......


----------



## ehagberg

I've read about the known issue where a machine will hang and need to be power-cycled to cause a reboot... but how about watching a Netflix video (or attempting to do so), never getting any video (or even the bit where it's determining connection status/quality) and after a few minutes staring at a black screen, the machine reboots itself?

That's what happened to my TivoHD just now. Hadn't had any problems viewing Netflix on the Tivo previous to this.


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## k00k

ehagberg said:


> I've read about the known issue where a machine will hang and need to be power-cycled to cause a reboot... but how about watching a Netflix video (or attempting to do so), never getting any video (or even the bit where it's determining connection status/quality) and after a few minutes staring at a black screen, the machine reboots itself?


This is exactly what just happened to me. I have a THX HD on a Wireless G network and decided to give Netflix a try. Went to play 30 Rock S1E1 and it said I had 9/10 bars, went black, showed me the transport controls again for a couple seconds, and then just rebooted itself. Tried it a couple times, same exact thing. Using HDMI.


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## rich_slidell

I went out and bought the $69 Tivo wireless adapter and have a DSL 3 mb download. The wireless network shows an 82&#37; excellent signal. 

I sat here for last two hours trying to watch a 2 hour movie and have only gotten through one hour of the actual movie. Now, I get the retrieving message every 30 seconds. I turned every computer off in the house and I paused the movie hoping it would fill the buffer but after watching the activity on the tivo wireless adapter, it stops downloading after a few minutes and quickly catches up to the buffer when the movie is restarted. I can't watch a movie like this. 

I have more luck watching it on my computer which by the way is running through the same wireless connection with no problems! I guess I will finish the movie on the computer. Tivo needs a bigger buffer. I can't go any higher on my DSL than 3mb down.


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## morac

rich_slidell said:


> I have more luck watching it on my computer which by the way is running through the same wireless connection with no problems! I guess I will finish the movie on the computer. Tivo needs a bigger buffer. I can't go any higher on my DSL than 3mb down.


3 mb should be enough to watch pretty much everything except HD. You could try changing the channel on your wireless router in case there is interference. That or see if you can move the router closer to the TiVo.


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## tsbrewers

I can't add much here, but my netflix has worked so-so, until today. The Video on Demand menus have been painfully slow, watched a movie, then the tivo froze on the netflix menu page. Had to unplug to get it to respond. Have had sound/video sync issues on about half the movies. Seems to happen more when I rewind or fast forward a move.

Brew


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## westside_guy

My experience was that, for a given show or movie, I'd have similar problems whether I was viewing through my Tivo or on my computer (when I had problems on the Tivo, I'd immediately hop over and try it on my Mac). The majority of shows and movies would work just fine - but unfortunately not the ones I really wanted to watch. 

I'm not convinced the problem was entirely at Tivo's end - I suspect Netflix (or perhaps both companies) just got caught unaware of how popular this feature would be once it was available on the Tivo. I also wonder if it was related to the shift over to Silverlight in one form or another, since I didn't hear anyone who was still using the old (Windows Media) transport complaining. Yeah, I know, anecdotal evidence can prove most anything...

In my case the situation has improved markedly over the last day or two.


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## TiVoStephen

dig_duggler said:


> I'd be willing to bet that phone support is not even aware of the locking up your box via Netflix issue as described by TivoStephen.


You'd lose that bet. Agents are briefed on all the major items I post via their knowledge system and headlines. I can't speak directly for the Netflix agents, but we have let the Netflix customer support management team know about the issues described in this thread as well.


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## eeg0323

Watch a movie the other night and had occasional audio sync problems. Today I tried several different movies and had a problem with all of them. Even though I get all bars and even the HD symbol, I receive for about 15 seconds, then get to watch about 5 seconds of the movie when it starts receiving again. I finally gave up and cleared my list. Guess I will try again after the new year and the newness wears off and maybe some of the kinks get worked out.


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## wmcbrine

Here's a weird one: I tried to play the first episode of "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex" last night. The sound was fine, but the picture never showed up. I let it play all the way through the theme song, exited and resumed, exited and restarted... nothing. The quality indicator was also fairly low, especially compared to episode 2, which I tried immediately afterwards. There was a significant delay in the start of video for that one, but it did start. So I went back to episode 1, but it was the same as before.


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## therlin

I'm having the same problem as BigJim. No matter how many codes I enter into TiVo and being told that the DVR is activated, when I try to view something it tells me "There has been an error with the activation of this DVR. Please try again with a new activation code."

I'm not quite sure what else to do at this point.

UPDATE: I restarted the box, went through the activation dance again and this time it seemed to stick.


----------



## icedog114

Been using netflix successfully the past few weeks, but got the error today 'Video Download disabled' Haven't changed any settings on my online account or anything. Called tivo (held 20 min!) the rep told me to enable home networking applications, connect to the tivo service, and restart. Still same error. He had no idea what was happening (some kind of troll?) and said to give it 24 hours and call back with my case number... any ideas besides waiting another day to get help. Thanks!


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## westside_guy

wmcbrine said:


> Here's a weird one: I tried to play the first episode of "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex" last night. The sound was fine, but the picture never showed up. I let it play all the way through the theme song, exited and resumed, exited and restarted... nothing. The quality indicator was also fairly low, especially compared to episode 2, which I tried immediately afterwards. There was a significant delay in the start of video for that one, but it did start. So I went back to episode 1, but it was the same as before.


I just had to go try this one after reading your post - but the first episode played just fine for me. I tried a couple others, and they worked well too. So it must've been some transient issue.


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## jakerome

Having loads of problems with Netflix. Watched 30 Rock Season 1 with no problem with 3 episodes. Then, on episode 4, nothing would play. It would sit there showing the progress bar with no audio or video. Try to exit back to TiVo Central and the whole thing rebooted.

Tonight, the same problem. Tried watching another show, and now my TiVo has been stuck on "Now Waiting" for about 5 minutes. Very frustrated. I think I've had one other crash in 8+ years of using TiVo, and that was with YouTube. It's now spontaneously rebooted. This is not fun. 

TiVo Series 3.


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## S3-2501

westside_guy said:


> I just had to go try this one after reading your post - but the first episode played just fine for me. I tried a couple others, and they worked well too. So it must've been some transient issue.


Before my S3 died I also tried watching the first episode of this series (*highly* recommended if you're a fan of the first Ghost in the Shell movie BTW) and I also had sound but no video. The new replacement drive in my S3 just updated to the v11.0 software, but after what happened earlier this week I can't bring myself to give it another try just yet. My online instant qeue shows this series will be removed from Netflix in January, so I guess I may never see it stream onto my S3. Good thing I own the DVDs


----------



## jakerome

k00k said:


> This is exactly what just happened to me. I have a THX HD on a Wireless G network and decided to give Netflix a try. Went to play 30 Rock S1E1 and it said I had 9/10 bars, went black, showed me the transport controls again for a couple seconds, and then just rebooted itself. Tried it a couple times, same exact thing. Using HDMI.


That's exactly what happened to me. The TiVo Series 3 (OLED screen) is hardwired to my FiOS router.


----------



## wmcbrine

wmcbrine said:


> Here's a weird one: I tried to play the first episode of "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex" last night.


It worked the next night (last night), and showed higher on the quality indicator (like episode 2).

My next problem is with "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" (BBC miniseries version). It skips forward (bringing up the timeline and briefly going blank), and plays the video at an accelerated rate much of the rest of the time. It's totally unwatchable.

That was episode 1. Episode 2 is even worse, with the same problems as 1, but also with everything skewed, like the vertical hold was messed up (back when TVs used to have vertical hold).

Ah, 16 minutes in (about a minute real time), the skew goes away. The other problems remain.


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## rjom

Subscribed


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## j_sunne

I have 1 repeatable issue. If I've zoomed in a letterboxed SD recording and later on start Netflix, the Netflix playback will be stuck zoomed. Clicking the Aspect button causes the Tivo gong sound, and doesn't unzoom the video. My output is set to 720P Fixed. Other than this, I've had no significant problems at all. My only complaint is 4:3 movies. Why not do everything available widescreen as widescreen?
My setup is HDMI into a Yamaha receiver, hardwired network.


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## Armchair Bronco

I'm going to take the time (later) to read through this thread in its entirety, but I have to say for the record the following:

*Shame on NetFlix and on TiVo* for hoisting such a pathetically untested collection of alpha software on your loyal paying customers! I've started a stand-alone thread to this end but as this seems to be the main tracking thread for these issues, I'm posting here as well.

As a computer professional, I'm *SHOCKED* that something as bug-ridden as the NetFlix offering was allowed to go live. Even a *3rd-rate tester *could have uncovered every one of these issues in a few days of testing.

By my estimates, more than 50% of the titles I've tried to watch have lip sync problems so bad as to render them unwatchable (Ghostbusters, The Cowboys). Others are horribly pixelated. The one foreign film I tried to watch (Das Boot) was stretched so badly that I could only see the tops of the first row of subtitles, rendering this film unwatchable even with my modest knowledge of spoken German.

And my Series 3 TiVo has also had one mysterious system reset while watching a NetFlix stream.

Honestly, this is one way to turn "loyal TiVo users" into "former TiVo users"!

*Get with the program, guys!* Invest in some quality alpha and beta testing (...in my view, the current offering is little more than beta quality...), and if it doesn't pass the smell test, then don't release it to the public at large!


----------



## steve614

Finally got around to using the Netflix feature earlier today.
I wanted to wait until the frenzy subsided. 

I watched a movie first with no problems.
After that, I immediately tried to watch a documentary and the audio and video were out of sync.
No amount of 'trick play' would correct the issue.
Tried again just now, still out of sync.

I hope that this problem can be fixed - it's hard to watch something that resembles an old karate movie.


----------



## mikeyts

j_sunne said:


> I have 1 repeatable issue. If I've zoomed in a letterboxed SD recording and later on start Netflix, the Netflix playback will be stuck zoomed. Clicking the Aspect button causes the Tivo gong sound, and doesn't unzoom the video.


This has been noted in other threads. Whatever you've got the aspect ratio set to (Zoom, Full, Panel) will work in the Netflix player, but you won't be able to change it there. A workaround is to hit the LIVE button, adjust the AR, then hit the LEFT button to get back to the Netflix player (whereever you were in it before, you'll be in the queue list when you come back).


----------



## Armchair Bronco

bicker said:


> A "stand up" company would live up to the promises it makes; not the promises you wish they'd make.


A "stand up" company would not release crappy software to paying customers after featuring its unveiling on the startup screen that they control!

I'm not taking sides with respect to the S3 that coincidentally melted down while viewing NetFlix titles, but I do know that I won't be watching any more NetFlix titles on my S3 until both TiVo and NetFlix have rev'ved the current version of their Not-Ready-For-Prime-Time offering.

What's ironic is that to take advantage of this offer, I cancelled my unlimited $25/month subscription with BlockBuster and renewed my unlimited $9/month subscription with NetFlix. Now it looks like I made the wrong choice.

Frankly, I'm very surprised that more people aren't as angry about this as I am. I paid a premium for my Series 3 as an early adopter, and now it appears that the S3 was hardly tested at all before this POS "feature" was released to an unsuspecting public.


----------



## bakerja

Well my TIVO HD works pretty good on my 6mbps DSL. No audio sync issues, high quality streams. My only real issue is how it deals with cinemascope movies and other Very wide screen films. I cannot adjust with the "aspect" button while netflix is streaming. It seems to stretch vertically every very wide screen film unless setup in panel mode before going in to netflix. 

Really wish I could toggle the aspect while watching Netflix.

Quality is great though. 

TIVO+Netflix=ROCKS!!!!


----------



## smokeyjones666

I've been having horrible audio sync issues while trying to watch season 8 of CSI on my Series 3. The audio drifts so bad that what starts out as a few millisecond skew in the beginning turns into a full 2 or 3 second delay by the end of the episode. This behavior reminds me of what happens when people poorly re-encode video sources that have vbr audio.

I'm really disappointed by this, I was really looking forward to this Netflix feature on TiVo and it's really let me down.

The aspect thing drives me nuts too, I don't like having to go to another screen just to be able to use the aspect button and I agree, it sure seems like something they could have been able to figure out during testing.


----------



## moyekj

Armchair Bronco said:


> A "stand up" company would not release crappy software to paying customers after featuring its unveiling on the startup screen that they control!
> 
> I'm not taking sides with respect to the S3 that coincidentally melted down while viewing NetFlix titles, but I do know that I won't be watching any more NetFlix titles on my S3 until both TiVo and NetFlix have rev'ved the current version of their Not-Ready-For-Prime-Time offering.
> 
> What's ironic is that to take advantage of this offer, I cancelled my unlimited $25/month subscription with BlockBuster and renewed my unlimited $9/month subscription with NetFlix. Now it looks like I made the wrong choice.
> 
> Frankly, I'm very surprised that more people aren't as angry about this as I am. I paid a premium for my Series 3 as an early adopter, and now it appears that the S3 was hardly tested at all before this POS "feature" was released to an unsuspecting public.


 To be fair not everyone is having severe problems being reported here. I've watched 1st 8 episodes of Heroes season 3 (1st 7 HD, 8th 10/11 bars) as well as 1st 3 episodes of Star Trek on my S3s and have not had any issues - no reboots, no audio/video sync issues for any of those. There have been a couple of movies I tried with severe audio/video sync issues, but that's likely a Netflix encoding issue.
Having said that, the fact that reportedly if you lose network connectivity during Netflix streaming the only way to recover is a reboot (pulling the plug) is a very severe bug for sure, so no excuses there.

It certainly feels like this was rushed out to meet marketing deadline before it was ready for widespread use.


----------



## Armchair Bronco

smokeyjones666 said:


> I've been having horrible audio sync issues while trying to watch season 8 of CSI on my Series 3. The audio drifts so bad that what starts out as a few millisecond skew in the beginning turns into a full 2 or 3 second delay by the end of the episode. This behavior reminds me of what happens when people poorly re-encode video sources that have vbr audio.
> 
> I'm really disappointed by this, I was really looking forward to this Netflix feature on TiVo and it's really let me down.
> 
> The aspect thing drives me nuts too, I don't like having to go to another screen just to be able to use the aspect button and I agree, it sure seems like something they could have been able to figure out during testing.


I have a feeling (and I'm not being facetious here) that NetFlix simply took a bunch of their already-encoded titles and ran them through a batch processor with essentially no testing and called the "upgrade" complete.

I'll bet some poor Program Manager and Developer assumed they could just add 12,000 titles to a queue, press a button, and after a few days of encoding, they'd be good to go. So they estimated 3 days for the new encoding work, and zero days for testing, since, after all, _"we're only changing from one encoding scheme to another...so what could go wrong?"_

Famous last words...and usually fatal ones in the software industry in terms of maintaining customer loyalty.


----------



## Armchair Bronco

And in terms of preserving a correct aspect ratio -- or even better, selecting the optimum aspect ratio -- NetFlix really needs to go back to the drawing board on this offering.

Through its partnership with TiVo they *should* be able to determine the optimum aspect ratio for a stream based on end-user settings already present on the TiVo itself. Either that, or as part of the sign-up process, you specify how you want streamed titles to be resized.

It really seems like NetFlix has a "one-size-fits-all" approach to their scaling for TiVo. This is also known as encoding to the least-common denominator simply because they're too lazy to have multiple encodings for each title they offer up.


----------



## jeepguy_1980

I must be the only one that never had a problem with netflix (outside of the first day). However, I canceled my Netflix account at the end of my 14 days, b/c the selection was terrible.


----------



## Armchair Bronco

jeepguy_1980 said:


> I must be the only one that never had a problem with netflix (outside of the first day). However, I canceled my Netflix account at the end of my 14 days, b/c the selection was terrible.


I agree that the selection of titles available for streaming was paltry indeed. I explained away this issue by assuming that over time, more and more titles would be added.

However, I've noticed that quite a few titles in my "Instant" list have tag lines that say something like: "This title will only be available through January 5th."

What does this mean? Who knows? Perhaps it means that the copyright owners will be prohibiting NetFlix from streaming the title after January 5th (or whenever), resulting in even fewer "Instant" titles.


----------



## mikeyts

Armchair Bronco said:


> What does this mean? Who knows? Perhaps it means that the copyright owners will be prohibiting NetFlix from streaming the title after January 5th (or whenever), resulting in even fewer "Instant" titles.


Those titles are generally Starz Play selections, which I believe are derived from the Starz cable subscription VOD stuff. Just as on cable, some of the titles expire as new ones are added.


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## Armchair Bronco

mikeyts said:


> Those titles are generally Starz Play selections, which I believe are derived from the Starz cable subscription VOD stuff. Just as on cable, some of the titles expire as new ones are added.


Hummm...that's interesting, because IIRC, I've noticed that the Starz titles generally scaled correctly on my HDTV. Maybe the encoding specifications for Starz-owned titles are higher than the specs for other titles offered by NetFlix...

...or not. Just an anecdotal thought.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Armchair Bronco said:


> What's ironic is that to take advantage of this offer, I cancelled my unlimited $25/month subscription with BlockBuster and renewed my unlimited $9/month subscription with NetFlix. Now it looks like I made the wrong choice.


what is ironic about a wrong choice?
They offered a 14 day trial on the Netflix streaming. if you had something else why cancel it before doing your *own*testing to see if it is what you want to switch to. Running things in parallel until you know the new way is all set and good to go is always a best practice in things like this that have enough variables to account for differing end user experiences.

The biggest variable will be the source of the material Nteflix gets and Netflix is under a lot of pressure to get more selection so will work with minimal source material until it can figure out how to get more deals like STARZ and ABC


----------



## bicker

Armchair Bronco said:


> A "stand up" company would not release ... software [with some bugs] to paying customers after featuring its unveiling on the startup screen that they control!


Bull. Where the heck have you been for the last twenty years? Wake up and come down from the clouds, eh?



Armchair Bronco said:


> I'm not taking sides with respect to the S3 that coincidentally melted down while viewing NetFlix titles, but I do know that I won't be watching any more NetFlix titles on my S3 until both TiVo and NetFlix have rev'ved the current version of their Not-Ready-For-Prime-Time offering.


We're a hearing impaired home, so we won't be using the service until it complies with the accommodation provisions of the Americans with Disabilities Act. However, that doesn't make me go over-the-top exaggerating the transgression, and *angrily damning *the provider for failing to do so. We're disappointed, each of us about something we care about (or need). *That's it.* The translation of such disappointment practically into moral turpitude is itself moral turpitude, AFAIC. TiVo released a service that was completely useless to the hearing impaired, a legally-protected class in our society. That *does not mean that they are not* a "stand up" company.


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## mikeyts

bicker said:


> TiVo released a service that was completely useless to the hearing impaired, a legally-protected class in our society.


In that regard, they're not any different from almost all of the online video download and streaming sites. Of them all, the only one where I've seen any available close captioning is Hulu, and CC isn't available on all titles there.

Amazon Unbox, MovieLink (recently assimilated by Blockbuster), CinemaNow, Xbox Live Video Store, Playstation Video Store, etc--I haven't seen any close captioning available on any of these services.


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## wmcbrine

ZeoTiVo said:


> They offered a 14 day trial on the Netflix streaming.


There are no free trials for current or former Netflix customers.


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## justlen

Well, it looks like Netflix totally borked my Series 3.

Started a movie last night and got the lockup described in this thread. I have tried kickstarts 52 and 57 but I am stuck on "almost there."

I guess I'm off to buy a new hard drive.

Thanks, Tivo and Netflix!


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## sriggins

What is these accuracy of this Netflix/Complete failure of a Series 3 reports?

I know that if you make sure you have a valid network connection, it works for some, but others have claimed they've done that and still no boot.

This is very troublesome and likely I'll stop using Netflix on TiVo until I get an official TiVo reply.


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## bicker

mikeyts said:


> In that regard, they're not any different from almost all of the online video download and streaming sites.


Absolutely. And with regard to the service they're offering for the hearing community, they're offering as much or more than their closest competitors in the independent STB market. (Yes, I know they have no close competitors -- that's rather the point, eh?)


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## S3-2501

sriggins said:


> What is these accuracy of this Netflix/Complete failure of a Series 3 reports?
> 
> I know that if you make sure you have a valid network connection, it works for some, but others have claimed they've done that and still no boot.
> 
> This is very troublesome and likely I'll stop using Netflix on TiVo until I get an official TiVo reply.


Just to be clear, my lockup was not related to network issues. In the end, it would get to the opening movie with the TiVo guy and freeze in the middle of his third bow. If I skipped the opening movies using the TiVo button, it would lock up on the menus or after a few seconds of live TV (if I could get that far.)


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## sriggins

S3-2501 said:


> Just to be clear, my lockup was not related to network issues. In the end, it would get to the opening movie with the TiVo guy and freeze in the middle of his third bow. If I skipped the opening movies using the TiVo button, it would lock up on the menus or after a few seconds of live TV (if I could get that far.)


What did TiVo say when you called them for support?


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## mikeyts

bicker said:


> Absolutely. And with regard to the service they're offering for the hearing community, they're offering as much or more than their closest competitors in the independent STB market. (Yes, I know they have no close competitors -- that's rather the point, eh?)


I really don't think of TiVo as having released this service. The service has existed for a couple of years and TiVo just released a player for it. I don't doubt that their player is capable of handling CC if the stream has it. There's no CC available in either Silverlight or the Xbox and I doubt that there's any for Roku or any of the Blu-ray players. I'd lay the blame on Netflix.


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## bicker

mikeyts said:


> I don't doubt that their player is capable of handling CC if the stream has it.


Then you'd be mistaken. TiVo product management confirmed that the service software, itself, doesn't support decoding of Closed Captioning *as well as *the content lacking encoded Closed Captions.



mikeyts said:


> There's no CC available in either Silverlight or the Xbox and I doubt that there's any for Roku or any of the Blu-ray players. I'd lay the blame on Netflix.


You're prerogative. However, if you're not hearing impaired, I'm not sure your vote counts as much as a deaf person, with regard to Closed Captioning for the Hearing Impaired.


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## Armchair Bronco

bicker said:


> Bull. Where the heck have you been for the last twenty years? Wake up and come down from the clouds, eh?
> 
> [Current failings don't] make me go over-the-top exaggerating the transgression, and *angrily damning *the provider for failing [to release a more stable offering]...The translation of such disappointment practically into moral turpitude is itself moral turpitude, AFAIC.


I stand by my original indignation and "moral turpitude". Frankly, I'm amazed that so many people are perfectly willing to let a woefully untested, freebie service fry their S3 TiVos with narry a peep.

It's as if you go to your doctor for your annual physical, and he says: _"Hey, I just got some new vitamins that I think you'll like! Here's a free one week supply -- try it out!"_ You go home and on the strength of his recommendation, you take a few pills with your dinner. Six hours later, you're in the ER getting your spleen taken out.

What's that famous line ascribed to the Hippocratic oath that isn't actually part of the Hippocratic oath?

*"First, do no harm."*

Well, TiVo+NetFlix have IMO done A LOT of harm with this freebie offering, both in a figurative and in a literal sense. It doesn't work as advertised, it isn't transparent, it isn't better than loading up a DVD into a DVD player, and worst of all if you have a Series 3 TiVo it *could* render your hardware inoperable, requiring you to purchase a new or refurbished unit! In terms of "Doing No Harm" what could be worse than killing the patient?

Look, one way to publicly shame a company nowadays is to make posts on public forums and then to keep those threads alive thereby forcing said company to wear the Scarlet Letter "A". I intend to keep up the pressure...AND THE INDIGNATION.


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## mikeyts

bicker said:


> Then you'd be mistaken. TiVo product management confirmed that the service software, itself, doesn't support decoding of Closed Captioning *as well as *the content lacking encoded Closed Captions.


Did TiVo product management say this online somewhere? In any case, I guess that makes sense. If Netflix doesn't have a spec for how they'll provide close captions in streams, it would be difficult to create code to decode them. (And Netflix doesn't--see the section entitled "Subtitles, Closed Captions, and Alternate Soundtracks" in the Netflix blog encoding post).

I'm not hearing impaired, so my "vote" doesn't count as much as someone who is, but I do always use closed captions if they're available and unobtrusive (though never on live programming, because they're terribly delayed and often incorrect). My home is not a movie theater and I can't always have the volume up so loud that I catch every little thing (also, there are sometimes captions for incidental distant dialog that's so faint as to be completely inaudible with the volume turned up ). It is possible for me to watch and enjoy things when no captions are available, so the service is not rendered useless by the lack of them (it's never had them on any platform and I've watched a couple hundred of hours of Watch Instantly since May 2007).


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## jmemmott

mikeyts said:


> Did TiVo product management say this online somewhere? In any case, I guess that makes sense. If Netflix doesn't have a spec for how they'll provide close captions in streams, it would be difficult to create code to decode them. (And Netflix doesn't--see the section entitled "Subtitles, Closed Captions, and Alternate Soundtracks" in the Netflix blog encoding post).


The captioning issue is more complicated than it appears on the surface but I suspect that Netflix will be one of the first to deliver on the commitment to provide for it. Publishing a captioning specification not much of an issue because they have indicated that they are moving to Silverlight on PC's and Microsoft PlayReady for delivery. I know that PlayReady and Silverlight both contain support for captioning as I am already working with the API and tools that provide this support.

Unfortunately, Netflix has a couple of more steps to go before they can deliver on this promise. On the one hand, they have to stabilize their move away from WMP encoding to the PlayReady, so that they can tie into this captioning technology. They have barely started this process with the release of the Silverlight player for Windows and MAC. I think they are still building up experience with the real world issues of streaming with the PlayReady servers and have no commercial incentive to push the transition too quickly since they have another technology that is working in the mean time.

Secondly, they need the permission of the studios to include the captioning. Popular thinking seems to be that if the captions are in the DVDs or broadcasts, then it is legal to stream them as well. In truth, it requires a separate set of contracts with the copy right holders to be able to stream anything. Right now even the feature writers, actors and the studios don't have firm agreement on what can be streamed. That was the point of the strike last fall and threatened boycotts of awards shows this year. That is one of the big reasons that the number of features is so limited and some of them are expiring. Until this round of negotiations reaches some type of resolution that can be used as a model, I don't think there will be serious negotiations with the captioning writers and others to include additional material.

Tivo in turn will have nothing real to work with until Netflix can start to deliver content. They cannot use Silverlight technology directly as that is a browser plugin. Instead, they will have to process and display the captioning information from the PlayReady media streams themselves.


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## mchief

Armchair Bronco said:


> I stand by my original indignation and "moral turpitude". Frankly, I'm amazed that so many people are perfectly willing to let a woefully untested, freebie service fry their S3 TiVos with narry a peep.
> 
> It's as if you go to your doctor for your annual physical, and he says: _"Hey, I just got some new vitamins that I think you'll like! Here's a free one week supply -- try it out!"_ You go home and on the strength of his recommendation, you take a few pills with your dinner. Six hours later, you're in the ER getting your spleen taken out.
> 
> What's that famous line ascribed to the Hippocratic oath that isn't actually part of the Hippocratic oath?
> 
> *"First, do no harm."*
> 
> Well, TiVo+NetFlix have IMO done A LOT of harm with this freebie offering, both in a figurative and in a literal sense. It doesn't work as advertised, it isn't transparent, it isn't better than loading up a DVD into a DVD player, and worst of all if you have a Series 3 TiVo it *could* render your hardware inoperable, requiring you to purchase a new or refurbished unit! In terms of "Doing No Harm" what could be worse than killing the patient?
> 
> Look, one way to publicly shame a company nowadays is to make posts on public forums and then to keep those threads alive thereby forcing said company to wear the Scarlet Letter "A". I intend to keep up the pressure...AND THE INDIGNATION.


Good grief - its a fricking movie. I would hate to see you when you car won't start.


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## S3-2501

sriggins said:


> What did TiVo say when you called them for support?


On my initial call it was suggested that I remove my S3 from my surge protector and plug it directly into the wall. When that didn't work, the rep told me to unplug everything from the back of the S3 except the power and RCA AV connections. I was told to unplug the unit from the wall and let it sit for at least 15 minutes, plug it in and call back if it didn't work. I explained in detail the events leading up to the initial killer lockup (changing output resolution from 480i fixed back to Native after watching Netflix,) and I was told that my story would be noted and forwarded to any relevant people at TiVo. I was also given a case number.

On my second call (after the above steps failed to work) I was immediately told about the replacement options I've described earlier in this thread. I was very unhappy with the options that TiVo was offering, and decided to take a chance with a weaknees drive instead.


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## sriggins

S3-2501 said:


> On my second call (after the above steps failed to work) I was immediately told about the replacement options I've described earlier in this thread. I was very unhappy with the options that TiVo was offering, and decided to take a chance with a weaknees drive instead.


Dang, I think NetFlix is offlimits for now.........


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## bicker

Armchair Bronco said:


> I stand by my original indignation and "moral turpitude".


That's your prerogative. 



Armchair Bronco said:


> What's that famous line ascribed to the Hippocratic oath that isn't actually part of the Hippocratic oath?


I've never though of a TiVo as a medical device. Is it compliant with 21 CFR Part 11? If not, why aren't you raising holy heck about *that*?


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## MickeS

I was pretty happy overall with the two weeks I used it (a few issues here and there), but I canceled my Netflix trial membership today anyway. As an alternative to movie channels, I think this is great value for money, but I'm not using it enough to justify the cost.

I hope TiVo works out the bugs, this could be a great thing for them.


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## mikeyts

Some of the encodings for _Doctor Who: Season 2_ and _Doctor Who: Season 3_ seem to have some problems. (These are seasons from the revival of the series which started in 2005. Netflix has some original series stuff from the 60s, 70s and 80s, some of which are available for instant viewing, but they're two or three episode stories and not whole seasons). After watching the first episode of _Season 2_, I had severe problems with the 2nd episode, so I tested all episodes on a TiVo Series3. I got 10 bars in the connection speed test at the beginning of each (there's always an unlit 11th bar for SD content, which I've never seen filled). The first episode of _Season 2_ plays beautifully throughout, with DVD level PQ and widescreen AR; episodes 2-14 all stutter and skip unwatchably, with 4:3 aspect. (I tried a few of these in the PC Silverlight player with similar results). The first episode of _Season 3_ has problems, but all the rest seem fine, in widescreen, though the PQ of most of them doesn't come close to _Season 2, Episode 1_ (the last few seem pretty sharp).

I watched _Doctor Who: Season 1_ early this year in the old PC player and was delighted to see that these seasons had shown up. Sad that they don't play properly on TiVo. I finished watching _Season 2, Episode 2_ in the Xbox player--the encoding that it gets seems fine (though still 4:3 ), so maybe I can successfully watch them on it.

Also, while testing them, I'd start playing, watch a few minutes and then get out with a single press of the LEFT remote botton. This brought me back to varying places, either the episode list, the top of the instant queue or back to the Video On Demand menu.


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## RoyK

Just froze on me while watching "Modern Marvels - The Manhatten Project" Pressing the TiVo button got the menu back with the video from Modern Marvels in the background - then that too froze. Had to pull the plug....

There's no excuse for failing like that no matter what might have happened to the source stream. The TiVo should be able to recover better than that.


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## kmill14

Not to ruin the great vibe in this thread....but so far the Netflix to TiVo interface has worked pretty good for me and I am quite glad they rolled it out "in its current condition". 

I've watched about 15 episodes of The Office (S1 and S2), a few episodes of 30 Rock (S1) and the 2nd National Treasures movie. 

The only problems I have ever had are related to my internet speeds. It will get to the HD quality, but won't stay there and has to kick back down to the next quality down. Thats it. I had one lip-sincing issue that was corrected by skipping back 8 seconds, and I had one freeze exiting a show that forced me to reboot. Big F-ing deal.

I want to personally send a "Shout Out" to TiVo and Netflix for getting this done. I realize it is still a "work-in-progress" and will improve over time, but for someone who doesn't have access to any other "free" On Demand service, I am VERY VERY PLEASED with what I see. I would like better content options, but for now I can live with whats there.


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## ZeoTiVo

wmcbrine said:


> There are no free trials for current or former Netflix customers.


well I can understand that for current users - no need for free trial. 
How did the word the former Netflix customers? Surely not to hard to do a free trial as umm someone Netflix did not hear of before on a TiVo they could certainly not have ever known about.


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## TiVo Steve

I just started my Netflix sub soley for use with my TiVo HD. The 1st movie played great! The 2nd movie never would play (it looked like horizonal hol was of). Played a couple more movies fine. Then I went back to check that 1st one that wouldn't play... the only button that worked was the TiVo button. Total Lock-Up! I had to pull the power plug... called TiVo and filed a report... CSR said these bugs would/shold be worked out in a future update......

Just thought I'd chime in. 
My TiVo HD has been (pretty much) error-free since Feb 08 (500GB Seagate DB35 HD / Multi-Stream CC on Comcast.)


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## AKThunder

So I have a question. Is there any way to get it so it doesnt keep changing qulity while playing? Anything under almost hd quality looks horrible.


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## moyekj

Kriever said:


> So I have a question. Is there any way to get it so it doesnt keep changing qulity while playing? Anything under almost hd quality looks horrible.


 Other than improved HSI service I don't think so.


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## steve614

Kriever said:


> So I have a question. Is there any way to get it so it doesnt keep changing qulity while playing? Anything under almost hd quality looks horrible.


All I can offer is make sure no other devices are competing for bandwidth.


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## mikeyts

I just got an interesting e-mail message from Netflix:


> Survey: How Was the Picture and Audio Quality?
> 
> Dear Michael,
> 
> You recently watched Doctor Who: Season 2: "New Earth" . To help us ensure a great experience for all members, would you take a moment to tell us about the picture and audio quality?
> 
> The quality was very good
> 
> The quality was acceptable
> 
> The quality was unacceptable
> 
> Thanks for your help!
> 
> -Your friends at Netflix


The three blue lines were links. The answer to the question was complex (tried to watch it on TiVo with unacceptably poor results, watched it on my Xbox with acceptable results)--I clicked the "unacceptable" link. It opened a new browser window thanking me for my input. (I was kind of hoping for a text field in which to elaborate). At least they're trying .


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## HomieG

mikeyts said:


> I just got an interesting e-mail message from Netflix:The three blue lines were links. The answer to the question was complex (tried to watch it on TiVo with unacceptably poor results, watched it on my Xbox with acceptable results)--I clicked the "unacceptable" link. It opened a new browser window thanking me for my input. (I was kind of hoping for a text field in which to elaborate). At least they're trying .


I got that email too yesterday, albeit for a different movie. I also clicked unacceptable. The movie was in SD, and I had all 13 bars, but their SD is a bit below regular DVD quality for me, on all SD Netflix streams I've watched. I also give them credit for trying.


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## mikeyts

HomieG said:


> I got that email too yesterday, albeit for a different movie. I also clicked unacceptable. The movie was in SD, and I had all 13 bars, but their SD is a bit below regular DVD quality for me, on all SD Netflix streams I've watched. I also give them credit for trying.


The movie played smoothly, without major artifacting, but you clicked unacceptable because you found the sub-DVD quality to be below your expectations? I clicked unacceptable because when I played it on TiVo it wasn't watchable, period. It stuttered and skipped chunks, advancing through the few few minutes in less than 30 seconds.

I think that maybe they need a few more responses. If "it played all the way through without gross artifacting" qualifies for "unacceptable", no matter how low the PQ, they're gonna get a lot of "unacceptable" from people who watched the feature through to the end but felt like the PQ could be better, possibly only because (unlike you), they couldn't get a very high speed connection. They need "unwatchable, with badly distorted and/or jerky playback" and "played smoothly throughout, but the picture wasn't sharp enough for my taste".

Then again, maybe they're not trying to debug problem streams, but are looking for subjective feedback on picture quality.


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## bisdal

Adding a "me too" to this thread. My TivoHD has been stable for just about 1 year prior to using the new netflix streaming feature. I have been getting random reboots sometimes quickly, sometimes after watching a show for 30+ minutes. I'm sure the netflix code is running on their servers but whatever linkage there is with the latest TivoHD firmware appears to have a BUG. My network connection is fine, my capacity on the TivoHD is plentiful and the box was basically rock solid for the past year...until this change.


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## wmcbrine

Except for (my bad luck) the very first thing I watched, I've found the quality quite good, when it's not outright broken (see above). And no reboots or anything like that -- the worst that's happened is it drops back to the menu.


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## berkshires

I appologize if this was posted before, but I noticed that the aspect setting is preserved from the DVR, and of course there is no response to the aspect button within the Netflix app; so the quick solution is to hit LiveTV, adjust the aspect setting, hit back and hit play to restart the Netflix video.


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## HomieG

mikeyts said:


> I think that maybe they need a few more responses. If "it played all the way through without gross artifacting" qualifies for "unacceptable", no matter how low the PQ, they're gonna get a lot of "unacceptable" from people who watched the feature through to the end but felt like the PQ could be better, possibly only because (unlike you), they couldn't get a very high speed connection. They need "unwatchable, with badly distorted and/or jerky playback" and "played smoothly throughout, but the picture wasn't sharp enough for my taste".
> 
> Then again, maybe they're not trying to debug problem streams, but are looking for subjective feedback on picture quality.


I agree. Yes, I clicked unacceptable due to it's picture quality. Hey, they asked us to "take a moment to tell us about the picture and audio quality". I think it would be wise for them to break it down to perhaps five answers, and put them in laymans terms. Right now the survey answers seem to broad to me.


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## drcos

Any ideas on how to force it to reset or re-test the bandwidth?
I watched a couple things in HD, then the 'quality meter' went down one bar and won't go back to HD, no matter what else is going on on my network.


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## houman

The Netflix experience was great until today. I basically watched all S1 of 30 Rock w/o any problem, I'd say most have come in HD.

I started Season 2, last night, and about Episode 3, so far I had a frozen screen where I actually had to reboot manually (I could not do anything and tivo remote was not workable) , post reboot I had to connect to network, and after that I was able to watch the remaining part of episode 3, after I tried to watch episode 4, I got no bars and Tivo rebooted on its own.

I'll try to have a laptop close to me next time to check the status of network and will report back.

If not I have had lot of fun using Netflix on Tivo, the screens were simple yet fast, but if I run into trouble, there is always the Xbox360 

Cheers & Happy Holidays!
Houman


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## TiVo Steve

3 total lockups in 2 days... I called TiVo and Netflix twice... just to get it on the record.

I put my Netflix account "on vacation" for a month. I hope that TiVo will get the bugs worked out by then. If not, I'll have to add a "power switch" to my TiVo (maybe a normally closed, momentary contact "reset switch").

_It's really too bad that the TiVo CSR I spoke to today called me a "Beta Tester"..._

I wanted to cut back on my cable TV package, and the Netflix streaming would have really come in handy... *if it worked properly!* 
:down::down::down:


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## houman

Ok, so I tried to watch 30 Rock again, and this time it showed those bars for the connection but all of them were blank, then the screen went black. I can press the Tivo button to go back to the main screen and I can do anything internet related (like Youtube on the Tivo), but if I go back to the netflix option now I get a black screen.

So I had my Xbox360 connected at the same time, and I was able to switch and watch all the shows no problem... so I doubt this is a netflix issue, more likely a Tivo issue.

Cheers

Edit: So I went to file a report, and went to check my Tivo for software version, and it was completely frozen, and I had to reboot it, so the netflix issue definitely hoses up the Tivo eventually.


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## NuShrike

TiVoStephen said:


> >* Bad assets / Lip sync issues
> 
> If you watch a video and see excessive macroblocking or jerkiness, or lip sync issues, please contact Netflix at 1-877-NETFLIX (638-3549) to report the issue.
> 
> An asset is bad if you can reproduce the issue consistently.


Why do I want to do this again? The last time I reported to Netflix, including how repeatable the problem was (1.5 minutes into Heros Season 1 ep 4 Giant Leap) and which quality setting (3 bars left of far right), I was told it was *my* problem and most likely my *router's* fault. I'm not impressed by the training these reps have.

The problem for that one episode seems solved (*two weeks later*) but there's 20 more episodes. I'm not paid to take the time to train and walk these reps through each of these problems when they can't even seem to replicate it in-house.

Do you not have a way to report issues by tagging it directly through the TiVo interface? After all, you already allow ratings.

Why doesn't any of your encoders check the work result? I've done a lot of tv to mpeg4 transcodings for years, and it's not difficult to set it correctly once and *get the audio sync correct* especially if Netflix is sourcing from premium sources.

I'm not very interested in a system that doesn't check itself and uses customers as alpha-testing guinea pigs. It's anti-TiVo and it is embarrassing for Netflix.

Just to add I don't have any stability problems, nor any hanging problems I can't get out of by hitting the TiVo button.

It is too bad CC isn't available.. I could work through the lost audio, hollow-ringing audio, *unleveled*/*unnormalized* variable volumes if there was CC.


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## rodneyremington

My TiVo HD has been rock solid until the netflix rollout. Now it has locked up on me at least a dozen times while using netflix, requiring an unplug reboot every time. For God's sake let's get this fixed. It's not a minor issue.


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## tivoPaul

I guess I am one of the lucky ones...longtime tivo user, but new Netflix customer as of when the Netflix/Tivo functionality was added. I have watched many TV shows in HD (Office Seasons One and part of Two), as well as all of the BBC office episodes (in SD), and a couple movies. I am loving it. Not a single lockup or issue on my Series 3 with 1TB external Hitachi Deskstar. What an outstanding addition to the capabilities of the Tivo! I hope they get the issues that some of the rest of you are experiencing straightened out so that you feel the same way....


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## RoyK

Because of other issues I received a replacement HD from TiVo yesterday. This is the third since Thanksgiving! I set it up yesterday and this morning registered it on Netflix. Three times in a row now when I tried to view (different) items in my queue it locked up before even displaying the download quality meter. All I had was a gray screen and unresponsive remote. A hard reboot was required to get out of the situation.

Since I haven't shipped back the second HD unit yet and I have them both subscribed at the moment both to TiVo and netflix I tried the same programs on it. No problem there.

Both HDs running V11 software. Both hardwired on the same network.
I'm not at all convinced this is a Netflix issue.


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## bigguy126

Had my first problem with netflix, after many successful viewings.

Put a movie on pause, went out of the room and came back to my TivoHD on the main menu and unresponsive. Had to reboot by pulling the plug.
Also the backround color of the main menu, instead of the normal color, it was black.


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## Sicklybutsexy

Isn't there a way to get the highest quality all the time? I can never sustain it for an entire film and I have the highest internet speed (that I can get from comcast anyway.)


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## mikeyts

Sicklybutsexy said:


> Isn't there a way to get the highest quality all the time? I can never sustain it for an entire film and I have the highest internet speed (that I can get from comcast anyway.)


There's no way to insure that your network connection speed will stay stable (not the rated speed of your service, but the actual speed that you're getting on your connection to the Netflix server).

Apparently the PC Silverlight player has an ability to switch streams to a lower quality one when connection speed slows and then switch back to a higher quality one when speed is up again, all without pausing playback. Since the TiVo player is using the same encodings as Silverlight, perhaps they can eventually implement this.


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## drewpydog

I have a 6 mbps DSL connection, an S3, a THD, all connected via 54mbs wireless connection with Tivo branded wireless adapters. I keep getting buffering messages every 30 seconds or so while trying to watch a Netflix movie. It would be great to get HD streaming, but I'll settle for a constant connection of lower quality. On my router status stream I see a fairly constant level of activity just under 2mbs then spikes to ~5mbs which correspond to the buffering pauses. I think that this setup should be able to sustain a 2mbs transfer rate without rebuffering.


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## bisdal

bisdal said:


> Adding a "me too" to this thread. My TivoHD has been stable for just about 1 year prior to using the new netflix streaming feature. I have been getting random reboots sometimes quickly, sometimes after watching a show for 30+ minutes. I'm sure the netflix code is running on their servers but whatever linkage there is with the latest TivoHD firmware appears to have a BUG. My network connection is fine, my capacity on the TivoHD is plentiful and the box was basically rock solid for the past year...until this change.


An UPDATE since my post a couple days ago...I de-activated the Netflix via-Tivo from my Netflix account. I have had ZERO problems since making that change. I also wanted to clarify that my previous hangs/reboots were not only while watching a Netflix strem. I was getting random lockups & resets while watching previously recorded shows too.

My 2 cents still says that this issue is a Bug in whatever code facilitates low level communication between the Tivo SW/FW and Netflix streaming or the underlying authentication mechanism. Something bad is getting tickled here.

I'm hoping that someone on this forum has the ability to submit a service ticket to the appropriate group...this smells like a collaboration ticket between Tivo & Netflix Engineering?


----------



## lowepg

TiVoStephen said:


> If you lose network connectivity (for example, if your router is unplugged or your ISP has a hiccup or the cat chews through the Ethernet cable) while watching a Netflix video, you may experience a rare issue with your DVR becoming completely unresponsive to the remote.
> 
> If your DVR does freeze, the only solution is to reboot the unit.
> 
> However, if you still do not have network connectivity during the boot up process, the boot will not finish. .


beautiful design.

Luckily its incredible rare to ever drop an internet connection?

lol.

This is awesome- internet goes down while watching netflix. Tivo crashes, cannot reboot. Tv/tivo become completely useless until internet is working again..... might want to put that back in your support FAQ....


----------



## houman

it seems to work just fine today... go figure 

I don't think it's my internet, since I plug the Tivo directly to the router, and I have a 16/6 connection.

I still prefer watching Netflix thru Tivo, than Xbox360, it seems it's more convenient.


----------



## Sicklybutsexy

so maybe its not the internet connection @ all. maybe it's because its connected to my wireless network?


----------



## houman

I personally would not recommend movie streaming via wireless, if you have trouble over wireless, I'd recommend testing it as well on wired to see/compare.

my 2c


----------



## morac

I just watched "Babylon 5: The Lost Tales" without a problem, but then went to watch Lilo & Stitch 2nd Season "Skip" and the video played back in slow motion and the video just exited as if it hit the end. I'm also still seeing the problem with "Inspector Gadget" which plays fine on an XL, but not on an S3.


----------



## bisdal

bisdal said:


> An UPDATE since my post a couple days ago...I de-activated the Netflix via-Tivo from my Netflix account. I have had ZERO problems since making that change. I also wanted to clarify that my previous hangs/reboots were not only while watching a Netflix strem. I was getting random lockups & resets while watching previously recorded shows too.
> 
> My 2 cents still says that this issue is a Bug in whatever code facilitates low level communication between the Tivo SW/FW and Netflix streaming or the underlying authentication mechanism. Something bad is getting tickled here.
> 
> I'm hoping that someone on this forum has the ability to submit a service ticket to the appropriate group...this smells like a collaboration ticket between Tivo & Netflix Engineering?


UPDATE2

Okay, I have to revise my comments from yesterday. I am now getting random hangs followed by system resets (by itself) when trying to watch more recently recorded shows. When I watch shows from a 3-7 days ago there's no issue (small sampling size so far though.) When I try to watch shows from yesterday (2 different shows so far) I get the hang/reset cycle.

The Tivo Firmware/SW is now becoming more suspect in my eyes. My TivoHD is maybe 1 year old at most so I don't suspect the drive necessarily. Is there any way to generate diagnostic data/reporting for Tivo to look at?


----------



## DougJohnson

bisdal said:


> UPDATE2
> 
> Okay, I have to revise my comments from yesterday. I am now getting random hangs followed by system resets (by itself) when trying to watch more recently recorded shows. When I watch shows from a 3-7 days ago there's no issue (small sampling size so far though.) When I try to watch shows from yesterday (2 different shows so far) I get the hang/reset cycle.
> 
> The Tivo Firmware/SW is now becoming more suspect in my eyes. My TivoHD is maybe 1 year old at most so I don't suspect the drive necessarily. Is there any way to generate diagnostic data/reporting for Tivo to look at?


Frankly, this smells like hard drive troubles. TiVo has two areas for the OS. When a service update occurs, it writes the update into the currently unused area, then, on the next boot, switches areas to the new one. One guess might be that the update went into an area with some flaky sectors.

-- Doug


----------



## bigguy126

bigguy126 said:


> Had my first problem with netflix, after many successful viewings.
> 
> Put a movie on pause, went out of the room and came back to my TivoHD on the main menu and unresponsive. Had to reboot by pulling the plug.
> Also the backround color of the main menu, instead of the normal color, it was black.


Update to this problem:

Went into the log of my wireless router. At the time that I had this problem the wireless network went down. Now did the activity with netflix cause the wireless network to go down? Or did the network just go down and cause the tivo to not respond?


----------



## morac

bigguy126 said:


> Update to this problem:
> 
> Went into the log of my wireless router. At the time that I had this problem the wireless network went down. Now did the activity with netflix cause the wireless network to go down? Or did the network just go down and cause the tivo to not respond?


I would say the later is likely since it's already been officially stated that losing your network can lock up the TiVo.

I suppose it's possible that too much activity could cause your router to crash, but that really shouldn't happen. You might try upgrading your router's firmware.


----------



## mikeyts

I've been watching _Doctor Who: Season 2_ on my Xbox, since only the first episode will play properly on TiVo (but that one plays brilliantly). I finally had the Xbox Netflix app freeze up on me, requiring a reboot. Small consolation, but at least we know that the Xbox app's not absolutely bullet-proof .

As an aside, watching this sort of thing makes me pine for closed-captioning--the British accents make me miss the occasional line.


----------



## TheLongshot

Anyone know if they are doing anything with the videos where they have an audio delay?

After not trying for a while, I tried firing up Hellboy: Storm Of Swords and the damn audio delay is still there.


----------



## morac

TheLongshot said:


> Anyone know if they are doing anything with the videos where they have an audio delay?
> 
> After not trying for a while, I tried firing up Hellboy: Storm Of Swords and the damn audio delay is still there.


I'm not sure. In the surveys I'm getting I mark the movie as "unwatchable" if there are audio/video sync problems or the video just refuses to play period. Hopefully that triggers them to re-encode the movie.

Unfortunately I'm not getting surveys for everything I watch and I don't feel like calling in for every unplayable movie.


----------



## kuyper

TiVoStephen said:


> You'd lose that bet. Agents are briefed on all the major items I post via their knowledge system and headlines. I can't speak directly for the Netflix agents, but we have let the Netflix customer support management team know about the issues described in this thread as well.


Sorry mate, but I just spent over 4 hours with these same support folks yesterday (Dec 27 - a week after you posted this) and they still wanted me to RMA the box for $150. See case 1046-8582. It took me 4 calls to get to a Sup who finally said he'd try to get logging turned on on my TiVoHD and would "see if he could send a free RMA" tho I still maintain this is not a h/w problem.

My particular use case (easy to repro) is to watch a NetFlix, hit TiVoCentral button; it jumps to TivoCentral, but the movie is still playing with the TiVoCentral menu text-overlaid. At that point, my remote becomes useless.

2 remotes, reset the main remote (both 0-controller and full reset) to no avail. Only solution is power-cycle.

My TiVoHD can see programs on my S2, but cannot see TiVoDesktop content. TiVoDesktop can see my S2, but can't download program listing from the HD.

V.11 is badly broken. Please offer a rollback to customer who are struggling.

I am about to try the deregister from NetFlix trick....


----------



## shawndover

I have had the same problem as everyone here. While watching a Netflix streaming program (a Family ties episode), my Tivo Series 3 locked up. When rebooting, it will not go past the "Almost there. Just a few minutes more" screen.

I just called customer support. My case number is 10480216. The CSR new absolutely NOTHING about the Netflix problem and had NO suggestion other than unplugging the Tivo and plugging it back in. She said my only option was to get a refurbished unit for $150.

Mr. Mack, this is outrageous. As documented on this board, there appears to be a common problem with the Tivo software rendering DVR's inoperable. TiVo owes its users a response to this.



kuyper said:


> Sorry mate, but I just spent over 4 hours with these same support folks yesterday (Dec 27 - a week after you posted this) and they still wanted me to RMA the box for $150. See case 1046-8582. It took me 4 calls to get to a Sup who finally said he'd try to get logging turned on on my TiVoHD and would "see if he could send a free RMA" tho I still maintain this is not a h/w problem.
> 
> My particular use case (easy to repro) is to watch a NetFlix, hit TiVoCentral button; it jumps to TivoCentral, but the movie is still playing with the TiVoCentral menu text-overlaid. At that point, my remote becomes useless.
> 
> 2 remotes, reset the main remote (both 0-controller and full reset) to no avail. Only solution is power-cycle.
> 
> My TiVoHD can see programs on my S2, but cannot see TiVoDesktop content. TiVoDesktop can see my S2, but can't download program listing from the HD.
> 
> V.11 is badly broken. Please offer a rollback to customer who are struggling.
> 
> I am about to try the deregister from NetFlix trick....


----------



## jhimmel

Is anyone able to play "Head Caseair of Hearts"?
All the Head Case episodes seem to play okay except this one - which keeps trying to get data, and loses sound every time.

Jim H.


----------



## justlen

I got past this by running a Cat5 cable from my router temporarily and running kickstarts 52 and 57 over and over.



shawndover said:


> I have had the same problem as everyone here. While watching a Netflix streaming program (a Family ties episode), my Tivo Series 3 locked up. When rebooting, it will not go past the "Almost there. Just a few minutes more" screen.
> 
> I just called customer support. My case number is 10480216. The CSR new absolutely NOTHING about the Netflix problem and had NO suggestion other than unplugging the Tivo and plugging it back in. She said my only option was to get a refurbished unit for $150.
> 
> Mr. Mack, this is outrageous. As documented on this board, there appears to be a common problem with the Tivo software rendering DVR's inoperable. TiVo owes its users a response to this.


----------



## TiVo Steve

After 3 lock-ups in 2 days I called TiVo twice... the 2nd CSR called me a BETA-tester! :down::down::down:


----------



## tsbrewers

I just wanted to add that I have been having the problems that everyone else has, but I watched 2 full seasons of the office over the last 2 days and haven't had any problems. I don't know if the demand has been less for the holidays or not, but it was working for me lately.

Brew


----------



## bisdal

DougJohnson said:


> Frankly, this smells like hard drive troubles. TiVo has two areas for the OS. When a service update occurs, it writes the update into the currently unused area, then, on the next boot, switches areas to the new one. One guess might be that the update went into an area with some flaky sectors.
> 
> -- Doug


Hi Doug,
I think you win this one unfortunately. My problem has progressed to a solid state of "hangs at welcome...powering up." I think the disk is simply not spinning up anymore. Unfortunately, I think I'm going to need a drive swap after only 1 YEAR. I love Tivo but what a frustrating box when it comes to troubleshooting. I think that a great RFE for newer product would be disk diagnostics. I had the drive fail in my Series2 box after about 1.5 years and now my TivoHD after 1 year exactly. 

I'll probably try the Netflix streaming again after getting a new drive (the original focus of this thread, sorry!) Hopefully this isn't a larger problem.

Thanks for the feedback.
-Brad


----------



## morac

bisdal said:


> I think that a great RFE for newer product would be disk diagnostics. I had the drive fail in my Series2 box after about 1.5 years and now my TivoHD after 1 year exactly.


There is a method to do a disk diagnostics. There's even a support page documenting the process. Unfortunately if the test fails, that means the drive is bad and needs to be replaced. If the test passes and there's still problems then the drive may or may not be bad.


----------



## S3-2501

morac said:


> There is a method to do a disk diagnostics. There's even a support page documenting the process. Unfortunately if the test fails, that means the drive is bad and needs to be replaced. If the test passes and there's still problems then the drive may or may not be bad.


My disc passed the SMART tests but still wouldn't boot, so clearly there either was some hidden hardware failure that isn't part of these tests, or something corrupted the software installation on the drive beyond repair.

For anyone following my particular situation, here's an update. The S3 continues to work with the replacement drive. After reading some of the slightly more encouraging results posted in this thread, I re-registered my S3 and gave Netflix some preliminary testing.

Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex still would only play audio or video, but not both. I tried some other animated shows in my instant queue without any significant issues, though I'm still hesitant to press my luck and do more extensive testing.

It's worth repeating that my TiVo HD can play the aforementioned Ghost in the Shell shows fine but my S3 cannot. I have not had any issues playing Netflix on my Tivo HD: only my S3 seems to have had problems. However, considering the increasing number of HD users with problems, I'll probably lay off any further testing for the time being.


----------



## riz

I have a xbox 360 and stream netflix, I just bought a Tivo HD (will be installing it tonight or tomorrow hopefully!) and wanted to know if netflix in HD (on Tivo HD) does DD5.1 because it does not on xbox 360. my connection is the fastest comcast connection as a fyi

thx
riz


----------



## moyekj

riz said:


> I have a xbox 360 and stream netflix, I just bought a Tivo HD (will be installing it tonight or tomorrow hopefully!) and wanted to know if netflix in HD (on Tivo HD) does DD5.1 because it does not on xbox 360. my connection is the fastest comcast connection as a fyi
> 
> thx
> riz


 Netflix streams only contain 2 channel audio no matter what client you use. See:
http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/encoding-for-streaming.html


> Stereo Audio
> 
> Today, we cannot use WMDRM to deliver AC3 or DD+ audio, which means that only stereo (delivered via WMA) is available. PCs and Macs decode the WMA, and CE players also transcode to PCM for digital connections to receivers. We could technically include multichannel audio using WMAPro, but essentially no receivers are actually capable of decoding that. We are working on solutions to deliver multichannel audio for all the streams where we have suitable source, but this won't happen in 2008 for sure.


----------



## moyekj

FYI, I have been using Netflix extensively over the Christmas break and have not had any issues at all. I've watched going on 30 programs over last few days and I'm getting either 10/11 SD or HD streams. Happy to see Cox doesn't seem to care if I exceed the supposed 40GB/month quota.


----------



## Bonanzaair

moyekj said:


> FYI, I have been using Netflix extensively over the Christmas break and have not had any issues at all.


Lucky! Check this out. I have a TivoHD that streams Netflix all day long and a Series 3 that reboots everytime it starts to stream the actual movie. The interesting story here that when Netflix on Tivo was first available I could not see a picture using HDMI on the S3, but when I used a RCA Component connection everything worked great including using a Tivo Wireless Network Adapter.

Christmas comes and I get a new LCD flat panel by the same manufacturer as my last TV and now the S3 reboots every time I stream Netflix. What's up with that?

Bonanza


----------



## moyekj

Bonanzaair said:


> Lucky! Check this out. I have a TivoHD that streams Netflix all day long and a Series 3 that reboots everytime it starts to stream the actual movie. The interesting story here that when Netflix on Tivo was first available I could not see a picture using HDMI on the S3, but when I used a RCA Component connection everything worked great including using a Tivo Wireless Network Adapter.
> 
> Christmas comes and I get a new LCD flat panel by the same manufacturer as my last TV and now the S3 reboots every time I stream Netflix. What's up with that?
> 
> Bonanza


 Both my S3s are working great with Netflix, but I use component connections for both. HDMI in general I find too flaky with handshaking issues and a connector that can be easily dislodged. For my TVs component connections are just as good and make nice solid connections without handshaking worries and extra DRM concerns.
Perhaps combination of HDMI & Netflix on S3s (not THD units) is a more unstable mix.


----------



## wmcbrine

It seems like time of day may be an issue. Last night I watched episodes 3-6 of _Ghost in the Shell: Stand-Alone Complex_, with no problems. Today I tried to watch episode 7, and it would frequently go to a grey screen momentarily, then start playing again, having skipped forward. On a hunch, I went back to episode 6 (which had worked fine last night), and it did the same thing.

Of course this means I won't be able to finish the series before it expires (it's one of the Starz Play deals).  Good thing I've seen it already...


----------



## CheezWiz

I agree that time of day is an issue. At 5 PM around here, we start seeing buffering issues. However I have noticed that my issues with my S3 are from overheating while streaming Netflix. I have always kept an eye on temps and my S3 always held at 45 degrees. When I start having lockups and slowdowns while using Netflix, it is sitting at 55 degrees. After putting a fan on the floor in front of the S3, the lockups and slowdowns have disappeared.


----------



## Bonanzaair

moyekj said:


> Perhaps combination of HDMI & Netflix on S3s (not THD units) is a more unstable mix.


Don't disagree that's why I was successfully using the component connection on my S3 until I switch out the televisions. I just have trouble understanding what happened.

Bonanza


----------



## bhawbaker

moyekj said:


> TivoStephen, there is also one more obscure bug that has been observed to add to your list:
> After using Netflix application one is unable to see formatting changes on Closed Captions. Only a reboot (and avoiding use of Netflix) will fix it.


Ditto that! I also see this problem. My caption is set differently than defaults. After playing Netflix movies and I go back to regular Tivo videos, the Tivo CC becomes super small and cannot change it. Very frustrating, and makes me not want to use Netflix cuz I don't want to do the dreaded reboot.

bob


----------



## TiVo Steve

After multiple re-boots, I gave up using Netflix on my TiVo HD. 

I have a Vista Media Center computer hooked up to my TV, and while watching "Lightspeed" with the Silverlight 2.0 player with Internet Explorer 7, the movie lost lip-sync at about the half-way point! 

Had to call Netflix... 

They said they were aware of the problem with that movie, and were working on it! I suggested to the Netflix CSR that they add an area on the Netflix website to report issues with their streaming videos... 

If a direct connection to streaming videos with IE7/Silverlight doesn't work correctly on a 3GHz computer with a 12Mbps down/2Mbps up wired connection, how can our poor little underpowered TiVos hope to function properly?


----------



## morac

TiVo Steve said:


> If a direct connection to streaming videos with IE7/Silverlight doesn't work correctly on a 3GHz computer with a 12Mbps down/2Mbps up wired connection, how can our poor little underpowered TiVos hope to function properly?


The TiVo has has hardware video decoders so it should play back as good or better than a PC with Silverlight (since the PC does all decoding in the CPU).

I think Netflix servers aren't able to handle the strain. Sometime it works, but I've also seen instances where no matter what I do I can't get the TiVo to display an HD stream or even full bars (even though speed tests show > 6 mbps speeds).


----------



## netserf57

this may not be the thread to post - if not direct me elsewhere

the Tivo/Netflix integration is missing some userfriendliness to it. I would prefer the option of browsing the Netflix site from my Tivo in addition to the computer. I would also like all the Tivo features - wish lists, subscriptions, pivot searchs to include Netflix content. I would like to organize the Netflix content instead of having to browse a long list of titles in the Tivo. Perhaps a way to tag the content so I can find what I want quickly. It seems that the Tivo and Netflix could share preferences that have been established. I am using Netflix for the first time - because of Tivo - and it is annoying I have to teach it what I like... would be nice Tivo could share what it thinks I like.

oh well - I am sure there are items others would like

don


----------



## norbertsf

Last night we watched "Underdog" and 2 issues:

1. We started watching on our computer (Quad-core 3 Ghz w/ 10 Gigs of RAM) via DSL and it would stall every 15-20 seconds or so (especially during action scenes. ( I have NEVER had ANY problems playing video on this machine--even HD video).....So we watched the rest downstairs on the Tivo S3....No hiccups! Super smooth playback....

2. The movie was widescreen format and since we have a 4:3 TV the image was squeezed and the Tivo "aspect" button on the remote did nothing to correct this (the Aspect button works great on Widescreen-HD content from Broadcasters....why not Netflix?)

Norbert


----------



## moyekj

norbertsf said:


> 2. The movie was widescreen format and since we have a 4:3 TV the image was squeezed and the Tivo "aspect" button on the remote did nothing to correct this (the Aspect button works great on Widescreen-HD content from Broadcasters....why not Netflix?)


 That's come up a few times. You have to set aspect you want BEFORE starting Netflix application on Tivo, then it will use aspect you have set at the time. Certainly inconvenient for those that change aspect ratios frequently. Personally I always use same aspect ratio (16:9 panel with bars on either side for 4:3 content), so this doesn't bother me much, but Tivo should enhance the application to make the aspect button work during Netflix.


----------



## berkshires

Bonanzaair said:


> Lucky! Check this out. I have a TivoHD that streams Netflix all day long and a Series 3 that reboots everytime it starts to stream the actual movie. The interesting story here that when Netflix on Tivo was first available I could not see a picture using HDMI on the S3, but when I used a RCA Component connection everything worked great including using a Tivo Wireless Network Adapter.
> 
> Christmas comes and I get a new LCD flat panel by the same manufacturer as my last TV and now the S3 reboots every time I stream Netflix. What's up with that?
> 
> Bonanza


What if you change the S3's output format to something else, like 1080i Fixed or 720p Fixed?


----------



## Bonanzaair

berkshires said:


> What if you change the S3's output format to something else, like 1080i Fixed or 720p Fixed?


Thanks for the suggestion - Just tried it and still no go, no Netflix.

Bonanza


----------



## jfriend

shamilian said:


> I have been watching netflix for the past 3 days.
> Mostly the service is working well.
> 
> Some videos have an issue which causes no audio at all on the Tivo. One of the videos had audio for 5 minutes then no audio for the last part of the movie.
> 
> This is completely reproducible.
> 
> I called netflix and netflix claims to know about the problem, that it effects a small number of their videos. I think it has been between 5% to 10% of the videos I have tried so far.
> 
> The videos work fine on a PC, no audio issues.
> 
> Since it is reproducible I would think this is fairly straight forward. Hopefully these issues will be solved soon.


I had a similar issue.

I set up our first Netflix video on the Tivo for the kids and it all worked great for the entire movie except no sound for the last 7 minutes. Needless to say, the kids were bummed about not being able to hear the ending. I tried rewinding enough to trigger rebuffering, but still no sound. That definitely left a sour taste for us on the Netflix streaming in our first experience.


----------



## berkshires

moyekj said:


> but Tivo should enhance the application to make the aspect button work during Netflix.


Is there access to the Aspect setting from HME?


----------



## avatarhands

There's something deeply disturbing about the cavalier way TPTB are treating this situation as reported on this thread. It's frightening, because I'm facing a crashing S3, and can't afford to have to replace it at my cost when the new update may have caused the problem.

Just for the record: viewed the first Netflix movie fine. The following movies had sound sync issues, video issues, etc., etc. NO big deal, a little disappointing, but hey, I can wait for a patch....but now, since that second movie went belly up, my S3 slows and eventually crashes on a regular basis. I'm talking about several times a DAY, requiring a full reboot, and sometimes two full reboots before working normally again...until it does it all over again later. 

This happens in recorded playback mode and live tv mode. My recordings are getting lost, corrupted, or just plain not recorded. I've tried all the suggestions in this thread except replacing the hard drive.

And the thought that the only thing on the other end of a call to customer service is going to be a shrug and a bid for cash is outrageous.

If this continues, and it becomes a widespread issue without solution...well, it's exactly why class action lawsuits exist, isn't it?


----------



## rvmeush

Most of the audio tracks on my Netflix streams are choppy and unusable. But I recently started watching Heroes and the audio is fine. Can anyone who has had audio problems check to see if Heroes sounds okay?


----------



## moyekj

berkshires said:


> Is there access to the Aspect setting from HME?


 Not sure. But Tivo seems to know how to access scheduling capabilities from HME so there is certainly access to some core Tivo capabilities from HME but perhaps aspect ratio and other output settings are not which is maybe why the feature is not already there.


----------



## tburrel

rvmeush said:


> Most of the audio tracks on my Netflix streams are choppy and unusable. But I recently started watching Heroes and the audio is fine. Can anyone who has had audio problems check to see if Heroes sounds okay?


We've been watching Season 1 and are up to episode 20. The first 19 were fine, but this episode has a sound problem: music and effects are fine, but the dialogue is "under" everything else. It's like having the microphone in the orchestra pit and trying to hear the actors- you can tell they're talking but you can't make it out. Haven't reported to NetFlix yet (just got the problem last night).


----------



## DougJohnson

avatarhands said:


> [...]my S3 slows and eventually crashes on a regular basis. I'm talking about several times a DAY, requiring a full reboot, and sometimes two full reboots before working normally again...until it does it all over again later.
> 
> This happens in recorded playback mode and live tv mode. My recordings are getting lost, corrupted, or just plain not recorded. I've tried all the suggestions in this thread except replacing the hard drive.


These are textbook hard drive symptoms. It might be coincidence. It also might be (indirectly) caused by the service update. TiVo uses two partitions to hold the operating system. When it a service update occurs, it is written into the currently unused partition. The next reboot switches to that partition instead of the previous one. If the new partition has flaky sectors, you could be seeing errors where you hadn't before.

If you are comfortable swapping drives in a computer, WinMFS offers a good chance of getting your data off the old drive and on to a new one. It's worked for me. You can also buy a completely formatted drive from Weaknees. Just pop it in, but you would loss your recordings and season passes.

-- Doug


----------



## pdhenry

Strange - I queued "Postcards from the Edge" and when I go to play it I get an error message saying it's not available for immediate viewing. It streams fine to my PC (in fact, I have an option to resume from the pause point if I watch a minute or two on the PC and then try to select it on the TiVo) but fails on the TiVo. From TiVoStephen's post I assume that there's an error with the TiVo version of the title.


----------



## DealDuderino

:down:

Throw my name into the group that's having problems with Netflix audio on Tivo. I just received a brand new Tivo HD box from Amazon, set it up, ran the updates, and configured Netflix. _Office UK_ played brilliantly, but I when I tried to watch _Priceless_ there was a frustrating 1-2 second audio delay. I tried to re-launch it several hours later, the gap was shorter but still there (I ended up watching it on Xbox 360 -- the only redeeming thing was that Netflix remembered where I'd left off!). I'm now watching Heroes Season 3 Ep 6 with no problems.

My setup:
* Tivo HD
* Network: Ethernet direct to router, ~ 6mbps
* Audio: RCA

Bummed me out, because I'd love to stop my Xbox 360 Gold Membership in favor of Tivo's Netflix, but I can't yet.

Well, thanks to Tivo & Netflix for this beta release. I look forward to the next release.


----------



## MickeS

avatarhands said:


> There's something deeply disturbing about the cavalier way TPTB are treating this situation as reported on this thread. It's frightening, because I'm facing a crashing S3, and can't afford to have to replace it at my cost when the new update may have caused the problem.
> 
> Just for the record: viewed the first Netflix movie fine. The following movies had sound sync issues, video issues, etc., etc. NO big deal, a little disappointing, but hey, I can wait for a patch....but now, since that second movie went belly up, my S3 slows and eventually crashes on a regular basis. I'm talking about several times a DAY, requiring a full reboot, and sometimes two full reboots before working normally again...until it does it all over again later.
> 
> This happens in recorded playback mode and live tv mode. My recordings are getting lost, corrupted, or just plain not recorded. I've tried all the suggestions in this thread except replacing the hard drive.
> 
> And the thought that the only thing on the other end of a call to customer service is going to be a shrug and a bid for cash is outrageous.
> 
> If this continues, and it becomes a widespread issue without solution...well, it's exactly why class action lawsuits exist, isn't it?


Sorry this happened to you. This sounds like classic hard drive problems, most problems caused by updates seem to normally be that it won't boot at all. Your symptoms sound exactly like when the HD crashed on my TiVo. I would suggest getting a new HD right now, you can most likely still save all the data including recordings if you do that.


----------



## pdhenry

OK, here's what I think might be a new one. After watching a Netflix movie I noticed that neither tuner was processing a video signal. I could play back any recorded show and navigate all of the menus but lost all live TV. As part of troubleshooting I disconnected the cable - pretty much immediately I got the onscreen message that the TiVo was searching for a cable signal, and this message went away as soon as I reconnected the cable. I verified that the upstairs TiVo was happily recording a different program. After a reboot I once again have two tuners. Any connection to Netflix?


----------



## morac

Maybe or maybe not.
See the following threads:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=409302
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=413206


----------



## pdhenry

Neither thread describes my issue. The first thread describes getting the "Searching for Signal" message, which I didn't get unless I disconnected the cable, and the message went away when I reconnected the cable. The second thread appears to be a problem with cable cards (I haven't had a CC install appointment yet) and doesn't clear on a reboot.


----------



## eeg0323

I gave up on Netflix and deauthorize the S3. Tried to watch 4 different movies last night and none would go. Every one of them got all the bars to the HD quality, but if they played at all it was for only 15-20 seconds and then have to stop and recieve more. A couple played only the audio with grey scree for video. 
This has to be one of TIVO's worst ever implementation. Will monitor these boards and see if any patch is offered that may eventually make this an application worth using.


----------



## tburrel

tburrel said:


> We've been watching Season 1 and are up to episode 20. The first 19 were fine, but this episode has a sound problem: music and effects are fine, but the dialogue is "under" everything else. It's like having the microphone in the orchestra pit and trying to hear the actors- you can tell they're talking but you can't make it out. Haven't reported to NetFlix yet (just got the problem last night).


UPDATE: looks like someone was listening- this episode is no longer available. I'm hoping they took it down to fix the problem, but since they HAVEN'T NOTIFIED ME AND THERE IS NO MESSAGE TO THAT EFFECT ON THE SYSTEM, I can't tell.

Netflix- I appreciate that you're trying to fix it (or at least I hope you are), but you are really a service company- communication is king! Keeping us in the loop is the only way to engender goodwill!


----------



## prices10

What a disaster. First the version 11 s/w release killed my hard drive. $250 later I am trying to watch my first Netflix movie. Picture quality is poor (my connection is one bar short of top quality, just like everyone else's apparently). After pausing and going back to it I got stuck on the 'Retrieving' screen and eventually had to pull the plug.
This is absolutely abysmal - I won't be trying streaming video again for at least a year. At least it's a free trial.


----------



## Fab2004

I belong to the small minority (or is it the silent minority?) of people who use Netflix on TiVo on a Daily basis and, crossing my fingers, only had problems with one series (a kid series).
I like to use the laptop to pick the movies and use Tivo to just play the movies on my list.
The user-friendliness of the flash interface of the Netflix site could not be replicated on tivo (nor its speed).

So call me one happy camper, but Tivo gets 3 Thumbs Up from me.

Just 4 the record, I do not work for Tivo, but had one since 99 when I worked on a competing project for a video card company.


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## MDRiley

I've tried over a dozen netflix strreams to my tivo series 3. About 1/2 are screwed up.
A common problem - two part BBC mysteries - first part fine, second part the audio sync is way off or the aspect ratio is wrong (16:9 rather than 4:3 and can't be corrected).

I will stop using the Netflix service and switch to pay-as-you go amazon, which is
pretty reliable now.


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## szurlo

My only real issue with Netflix so far has been the warbling chipmunk audio issue if I have my TivoHD connected via HDMI. Does no occur when connected via component. What makes no sense is that if I try to play a NetFlix movie over HDMI, it borks the audio for the entire device. Even Tivo UI sound effects. I would lean towards some kind of compatibility issue with my TV, but ONLY the NetFlix viewing creates this issue. Even stranger is the fact that watching live TV for a second will fix the audio. Really bizarre. Hope they can fix this because with my TV the picture is visibly better over HDMI. Don't think I would stick with component just for NetFlix.


----------



## Iluvatar

szurlo said:


> My only real issue with Netflix so far has been the warbling chipmunk audio issue if I have my TivoHD connected via HDMI. Does no occur when connected via component. What makes no sense is that if I try to play a NetFlix movie over HDMI, it borks the audio for the entire device. Even Tivo UI sound effects. *I would lean towards some kind of compatibility issue with my TV, but ONLY the NetFlix viewing creates this issue.* Even stranger is the fact that watching live TV for a second will fix the audio. Really bizarre. Hope they can fix this because with my TV the picture is visibly better over HDMI. Don't think I would stick with component just for NetFlix.


Not true. This can be reproduced using a video transfer software such as pyTivo and tranferring mp4 videos with certain types of audio. This has not been noticed before because so few people have TV's that are affected by this bug. And even fewer of those run pyTivo or equivalent. So it wasnt even a huge issue until Netflix came out. This bug has been around for much longer. Although there are a few other manufacturers effected, Samsung and Sharp seem to be the majority with the problems.

This seems to be either a TiVo software issue with interpreting certain types of sounds and sending it to the TV. Or a TV firmware issue. Maybe a combination of both.


----------



## dmorrell

eeg0323 said:


> I gave up on Netflix and deauthorize the S3. Tried to watch 4 different movies last night and none would go. Every one of them got all the bars to the HD quality, but if they played at all it was for only 15-20 seconds and then have to stop and recieve more. A couple played only the audio with grey scree for video.
> This has to be one of TIVO's worst ever implementation. Will monitor these boards and see if any patch is offered that may eventually make this an application worth using.


I saw that you're also an entouch customer -- I'm having a ***** of a time trying to get them to validate CableCards. Did you have the same problem?


----------



## szurlo

Iluvatar said:


> Not true. This can be reproduced using a video transfer software such as pyTivo and tranferring mp4 videos with certain types of audio. This has not been noticed before because so few people have TV's that are affected by this bug. And even fewer of those run pyTivo or equivalent. So it wasnt even a huge issue until Netflix came out. This bug has been around for much longer. Although there are a few other manufacturers effected, Samsung and Sharp seem to be the majority with the problems.
> 
> This seems to be either a TiVo software issue with interpreting certain types of sounds and sending it to the TV. Or a TV firmware issue. Maybe a combination of both.


Well, that'd be a bummer. This is a Sanyo plasma and I'm pretty sure there is no way to update the F/W on it. At least not by the end-user. I guess I could use the optical audio out of the Tivo to my receiver and use that for sound, but that solution does not have a high WAF. Too many things to turn on/switch around just to watch TV.


----------



## MisterWho

TiVoStephen said:


> Thanks everyone for using Netflix (as well as reporting the various issues some of you have experienced). I wanted to reiterate all of the known issues with Netflix, some of which have been discussed in other threads.
> 
> * Issues regarding freezes and reboots
> 
> If you lose network connectivity (for example, if your router is unplugged or your ISP has a hiccup or the cat chews through the Ethernet cable) while watching a Netflix video, you may experience a rare issue with your DVR becoming completely unresponsive to the remote.
> 
> If your DVR does freeze, the only solution is to reboot the unit.
> 
> However, if you still do not have network connectivity during the boot up process, the boot will not finish. So you MUST have a working network to reboot, if you experience a freeze while using the Netflix application. If your reboot seems to take a long time (e.g. more than 5 minutes) we suggest that you confirm your network is up and running (e.g. verify with a PC on the network).
> 
> We're continuing to investigate this issue and are working on a fix for a future release.
> 
> We apologize for these problems and thank you for your patience.


Just had this one last night on week old Tivo HD. Network was fine (of course, could have had a "hiccup") but entering the netflix app gave a grey screen. After trying a second time with the same result, gave up and went to live tv where it promptly froze (still image of live tv currently playing and no responses from remote). Tivo was recording on both tuners but evidently wasnt as both programs were later found to be partial recordings and indicator lights did not go off when program would have finished.

I tested netflix streaming on xbox and played fine with no network adjustments or router reboots needed. Watched for a while thinking Tivo would clear itself but eventually had to pull Tivo's cord and after a reboot, all was well (hopefully).

Now, like others, I'm scared to use Netflix on Tivo if it causes this kind of trouble.


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## pdhenry

My only grey/black screen problems have been within a few hours of using Netflix. I have very limited experience so far but last night I carefully avoided Netflix and did not get my daily lockup...

In my case the remote has been responsive but I lose live video. I can navigate to the "restart" menu and that fixes it.


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## bakerja

I had been in the silent group that were having no major issues until the last few days. Consistent freezes on the "please wait" screen. The last time, it did it while watching an episode of Law and Order criminal intent. It crashed my netgear router and I had a devil of a time getting the house back online.

Back up now but scared to try netflix again.


----------



## DougJohnson

bakerja said:


> I had been in the silent group that were having no major issues until the last few days. Consistent freezes on the "please wait" screen. The last time, it did it while watching an episode of Law and Order criminal intent. It crashed my netgear router and I had a devil of a time getting the house back online.
> 
> Back up now but scared to try netflix again.


I have trouble thinking of how TiVo/netflix could crash your router. It is easy to see how a router crash could hang your TiVo. -- Doug


----------



## szwjunk

Add me to the list.

We had already watched the whole of the first season of 30 Rock, and half of the second on my S3 without any problems. Until New Year's Eve. Then, I couldn't load the next episode of 30 Rock (I may have been saturating my bandwidth by uploading photos to my Skydrive on Live.com) so I went back to TiVo Central, then turned off the tv and read a book instead!

New Year's Day, the TiVo was sitting on the Powering Up screen. Being unaware of the problems I have now read about here, I was a bit puzzled, but nonetheless gave it 30 minutes to boot, which of course it did not. So I unplugged and hard-booted it. It booted fine, but then unsuccessfully tried to soft-boot itself twice more that day, requiring a hard boot each time. One more hard-boot was needed on Saturday the 3rd, and two more hard-boots on Sunday the 4th. Each time, the TiVo tried to soft-boot itself it stalled on the "Powering Up" screen.

I had, of course, read this thread in the meantime, and have avoided like the plague any more attempts to stream anything from Netflix.

So, things seemed to be okay through today - no more reboots - and I almost had allowed myself to believe that it had magically healed itself. I just sat down to watch an episode of Rocketboom (downloaded over the Web to the TiVo) and got two soft-boot attempts (requiring hard boots to succeed) in a row.

I am very, very disappointed in this. Seems like when you lose that connection during a stream from Netflix, something _really nasty _happens to the system - can there be a bug that actually corrupts part of the O/S image? I'm beginning to think so. I just hope this gets tracked down and fixed _real soon_. I am beginning to feel like I need to curtail my shameless TiVo evangelizing (I've talked at least three people into buying these things).

I wonder if I should hook my drive up to my PC and take a snap of the config using WinMFS now, and try to restore to another drive - or whether I would simply be copying something that's already corrupted. Anyone have insight into that? or trying a Kickstart 52, 57, or 58?

Oh boy. Not good _at all._

Update: Three or four more soft reboots last night. Tried a Kickstart 57 which ran for no more than three minutes then booted normally. This morning, two reboots; specifically, during playback of programs recorded overnight, the video freezes, followed by a spontaneous reboot requiring a hard boot. I am going to try yanking the drive and running Spinrite on it today, in case there are drive errors. Then maybe a Kickstart 52. This is appalling.

Yippee! Great news! *The drive is now completely dead!!* (a Seagate 1Tb) 

New WD ordered from Newegg, and the old one booked for warranty return to Seagate (it was only 7 months old). I have the Instantcake lash-up to build myself a new drive, but unfortunately I still need Charter to come out to "re-pair" the cable cards. This is my 2nd drive to die in this S3. Did the Netflix thing cause it? Who knows. But it will be a long time before I stream anything again...


----------



## husep

I have not used Netflix for last few days until last night. I got 3/4 of the way through a movie and then went to Live TV (almost like I changed the channel). Upon trying to reconnect I got an error message indicating network connectivity problems (which I did not have; verified by Vonage phone and laptop access). I then went to Settings to check Network connectivity which caused my Tivo to freeze up. I had to reset the Tivo by unplugging the power cord in the back. Second attempt to go back to Netflix caused system freeze which also required hard boot. I will not be attempting to try Netflix anymore until a fix is available. This sucks.
(Also, my network connectivity has been solid. The Tivo is connected by network cable and I have cable internet.)


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## rdodolak

There appeared to be some issues with the Netflix app last night. I couldn't even get to my instant watch list ... just an indefinite Please Wait. Pressing the TiVo button would cancel the request and take me back to TiVo Central which was a plus since I didn't need to reboot. I haven't experienced this issue today so it appears the Netflix app is back up and running.


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## jeffshome

Add me to the list of those seeing problems. I'm seeing low quality streams; freezes at the Instant Queue screen; dropped frames during the streaming; no frames on fast-forward (my LG BD300 DVD Netflix player fast-forwards anyway but just my time - TiVo needs to update the fast-forward function to handle "no frames"). I think all this is a case of the network shows in reruns making Netflix Watch Instantly too popular and their servers are just overwhelmed.


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## TiVo Steve

My Netflix "experience" seems to have improved since Comcast bumped up my connection speed a week ago. 

I still find some shows that were not encoded properly, and refuse to play. I was watching "Stan Lee Presents Mosaic" an animated movie, which would never get more that 5 "bars" (while every other movie/TV show got 12, or 13 for HD, bars). Anyway, the phone rang, I hit pause, when I hit play again it was out of sync... no amount of trick play, restarting, or resuming could get it to play again!
Netflix needs to have a support section on their website for reporting content that has problems playing. Having to call them each time you experience a serious error in playback is becoming very tedious!

I also agree that "somethings gotta give" with the Netflix servers as the "Watch Instantly" service gets more popular. More and more standalone devices are adding this feature, as well as watching on a comupter.

Expect the monthly price to go up (for server expansion, if not for greed) once you buy a new LG TV with Netflix streaming, or a Roku box (for Netflix). or a Samsung/LG Blu-ray player (with Netflix)... on and on.

Whew...


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## mikeyts

TiVo Steve said:


> Expect the monthly price to go up (for server expansion, if not for greed) once you buy a new LG TV with Netflix streaming, or a Roku box (for Netflix). or a Samsung/LG Blu-ray player (with Netflix)... on and on.


I doubt it. Remember, they get at least $8.99 a month from everyone using it for more than a month. As it becomes more popular, their subscriber base grows, which should pay for any necessary expansion.

What might happen is that they'll offer some fresher stuff at a premium price, for either an increased monthly charge or on a pay-per-view basis.


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## loosetoe

TiVo Steve said:


> I also agree that "somethings gotta give" with the Netflix servers as the "Watch Instantly" service gets more popular. More and more standalone devices are adding this feature, as well as watching on a comupter.
> 
> Expect the monthly price to go up (for server expansion, if not for greed) once you buy a new LG TV with Netflix streaming, or a Roku box (for Netflix). or a Samsung/LG Blu-ray player (with Netflix)... on and on.
> 
> Whew...


I think it's the opposite... they would probably love to move more and more content to digital delivery and reduce the number of discs they purchase, handle and ship.

Margins are ultimately going to be way higher on digital delivery (especially in a down market where computing resources and bandwidth are dropping in price).


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## morac

Is anyone else having issues with videos that used to play in HD no longer doing so? I can't get Pan's Labyrinth (and some episodes of Heroes) to play in HD anymore, yet other shows will play in HD.

One would think that if Netflix determines that HD works, it would display any program that has an HD stream in HD.

Has anyone else noticed this?


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## berkshires

mikeyts said:


> I doubt it. Remember, they get at least $8.99 a month from everyone using it for more than a month. As it becomes more popular, their subscriber base grows, which should pay for any necessary expansion.
> 
> What might happen is that they'll offer some fresher stuff at a premium price, for either an increased monthly charge or on a pay-per-view basis.


It wouldn't surprise me if their cost of streaming a movie to you is much less than the round trip mailing and physical processing plus worn disk replacement, etc.

...and that ultimately the streaming business could have excellent margins.


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## slowbiscuit

morac said:


> Is anyone else having issues with videos that used to play in HD no longer doing so? I can't get Pan's Labyrinth (and some episodes of Heroes) to play in HD anymore, yet other shows will play in HD.
> 
> One would think that if Netflix determines that HD works, it would display any program that has an HD stream in HD.
> 
> Has anyone else noticed this?


Been reported more than once, but maybe not in this thread. I just finished watching it last night and the HD encoding is no longer available. They probably took it offline because of something wrong with it.


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## morac

Here's a weird one. I was starting and stopping a bunch of different shows and at some point, nothing would stream any more. I could "play" the movie, but my network activity light showed that there was no network activity once the normal play screen came up. This happened for every single thing I chose.

At that point I backed out of Netflix and the S3 appeared to hang (no response from the remote other than the remote activity light flashing). About a minute later the TiVo came back to life. At that point I went back into Netflix and it was working again.


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## usnret

I have a TivoHD and subscribe to Netflix ($8.95 per month). I have one worry before I sign up for the downloads. What would happen if I got 1/3 of the way thru a movie and decided that I didn't want to watch it anymore. I worry that the whole movie has to run it's full course and that if I decided that I don't want to watch it and try to "get out", my HD will lock up, or something worse. Oh, and I have TWC RR cable internet. My internet seems to be pretty rock solid.
Thank you for any info.


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## lkupersmith

usnret said:


> What would happen if I got 1/3 of the way thru a movie and decided that I didn't want to watch it anymore.


Don't worry, nobody's going to force you to watch a movie you don't want to watch.


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## usnret

Not worried about that. I got the impression, reading thru this, that for some reason the Tivo was locked into the movie until it was finished and if something happened (net dropped out for instance) then one had to power down the Tivo to get it to run OK again.


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## pdhenry

No. If you stop watching a movie the pause point is saved (so you can "resume playing") until you delete the movie from your Instant Watch Queue.


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## mikeyts

usnret said:


> Not worried about that. I got the impression, reading thru this, that for some reason the Tivo was locked into the movie until it was finished and if something happened (net dropped out for instance) then one had to power down the Tivo to get it to run OK again.


You can stop watching a movie at any time, by hitting the LEFT button or the LIVE button or any other button that would normally take you out of what you're doing an into another menu (like the TIVO button). The problem that some people seem to have observe is that, if their network goes down while they're watching a movie, TiVo hangs, not if they try to stop in the middle on purpose. I do it all the time.


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## usnret

OK tks. Will give it a shot then.


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## DougJohnson

mikeyts said:


> You can stop watching a movie at any time, by hitting the LEFT button or the LIVE button or any other button that would normally take you out of what you're doing an into another menu (like the TIVO button). The problem that some people seem to have observe is that, if their network goes down while they're watching a movie, TiVo hangs, not if they try to stop in the middle on purpose. I do it all the time.


It even remembers where you were, so you can resume playing at the same spot later. -- Doug


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## wm2008

husep said:


> I have not used Netflix for last few days until last night. I got 3/4 of the way through a movie and then went to Live TV (almost like I changed the channel). Upon trying to reconnect I got an error message indicating network connectivity problems (which I did not have; verified by Vonage phone and laptop access). I then went to Settings to check Network connectivity which caused my Tivo to freeze up. I had to reset the Tivo by unplugging the power cord in the back. Second attempt to go back to Netflix caused system freeze which also required hard boot. I will not be attempting to try Netflix anymore until a fix is available. This sucks.
> (Also, my network connectivity has been solid. The Tivo is connected by network cable and I have cable internet.)


Add me to that list. A couple days ago my wife was playing around with one of our TivoHDs and the netflix feature. The Tivo locked up. I had to reboot it when I got home. At the same time she then tried the other TivoHD, which seemed to work fine. Yesterday just for kicks I tried a different (non-HD) netflix title, and it played for a while and then the unit locked up. Completely unresponsivle and required pulling the plug again. Tonight due to heavy pixelation making a regular Tivo recording worthless and unviewable, we decided to try again to watch a netflix title. It started playing, then locked up. Required pulling the plug. I waited (forever) for it to reboot again. We tried a different Netflix title. It immediately locked up - never started playing. I'm on FIOS with loads of bandwidth and very low latency. Tivo is cabled to a 100mb switch - no wireless.


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## gdetore

Reading all the various netflix to tivo issues as I too, am having buffering problems, then grey screen, screen stopped at retrieving. Rebooting, etc. Am not looking for any specific answers, just want Tivo/Netflix to know there's one more dissatisfied customer. I think it is Netflix, as the error messages come from Netflix. Hope Netflix starts giving refunds/free months or something - I only subscribed so I could stream to TV and it ain't happening. Big disappointment so far.


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## mnorton33

Just got the Netflix lockup forcing reboot.....twice. Netflix worked fine earlier today.


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## RAM5

So I'm sitting here writing this while my Series 3 TiVo is going through it's 6th reboot this evening. It is connected through a 100 Mbit/sec ethernet switch my 6Mbit/sec DSL connection.

Silly me for thinking that I could watch an episode of Inspector Alleyn streamed from NetFlix on my TiVo. I mean, it seemed like a reasonable thing to do. The other two episodes I had watched as streams actually had the sound in sync, which as we all know is not to be taken for granted. (I know, I know, you want me to spend 20 minutes on hold with NetFlix to report a problem each time this happens.... fuggadaboutit! If they really cared about fixing _that_ problem there would be a web form we could use to report it. They have nothing but contempt for our time... but that's another rant).

So 110 minutes into a 147 minute show, the screen froze. Pressing the TiVo button resulted in the TiVo central menu with the last frame of Inspector Alleyn as the background. Attempting to restart the episode resulted in a total freeze where neither the remote nor the keys on the front panel had any effect.

I rebooted the system and tried to resume where I had left off. The "quality" (sic) graph never appeared, the screen went blank, and after a few minutes, I rebooted.

When the TiVo eventually returned I tried playing the program from the beginning. ....the quality graph never appeared, ...the screen went blank, and after a few minutes I rebooted.

At this point I opened a nice bottle of Chardonnay just to keep my blood pressure in check (med students please do not reply... I know, I know).

Halfway through the first glass, the TiVo became operational again and when I selected the Video on Demand choice on the TiVo central menu, the snotty little machine informed me that I was not allowed to choose that, and that I must go to Messages and Settings and "connect to the TiVo Service". I did this despite the fact that my deliquant TiVo claimed that the last successful connection was less than 8 hours earlier.

At 60% of the way through "loading", the system did a spontaneous reboot.

At 60% of the way through my second glass of wine TiVo came back and I restarted the "connect to the TiVo service". This time it (eventually) finished. I had mistakenly thought that connecting was for the purpose of downloading a new image or at least a patch that would address the problem. Silly me! I was expecting a request for a reboot to install the fix. ...nada.

So, with wild abandon, I again attempted to restart the Inspector Alleyn episode from the beginning this time (just in case). No "quality" graph... Blank screen.... But there was a ray of sunshine... I could press the TiVo button and get the Tivo Central Menu... just the menu.... no background image, that was black. Giving up on the Video on Demand myth, I selected a saved copy of the Charlie Rose interview Michael McConnell on national intelligence. I clicked play and got.... a blank screen and all the buttons on the remote and the front panel were frozen.

...and so it went. I've rebooted a couple of more times, but attempting to watch streaming video from Netflix has apparently hosed my TiVo O/S image. So how, exactly, do I downgrade to the last release before streaming video was available?

I've finished the wine, and am contemplating switching either to a nice Polish vodka (Zytnia or maybe Zubrowka)... or should I just go straight for the absinthe?

Thoroughly pissed off.... now working on just getting pissed.

-- Richard

Now I remember! The reason I canceled my original NetFlix subscription (for DVD's) was that 2/3 of the disks they sent were so badly abused that they stopped working half-way through the movie. So presenting the first half of the show and then leaving you high and dry is a NetFlix trademark!

Have they patented that yet?

Back then they wanted me to spend hours on the phone waiting to talk to customer service so they could eventually send me a replacement disk! Gotta give them points for consistency!

</rant>


----------



## lofar

Seems terrible tonight. Something must be up. I've watched literally hundreds of hours of various TV series since they added the netflix feature and suddenly tonight I am lucky to be able to watch one full episode of anything. Lots of pauses in the play back but even worse is just getting it to play in the first place, took two reboots last time to get a show to play and then when I switched to the next episode it locked up at me on a black screen and then I tried to go to and play a local recording and the whole thing just rebooted on me. And now i'm sitting here waiting on a reboot. Did they update some software or something? Or are the servers having major problems?

I've never had any problems at all with the service until tonight.


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## moyekj

lofar said:


> Seems terrible tonight. Something must be up. I've watched literally hundreds of hours of various TV series since they added the netflix feature and suddenly tonight I am lucky to be able to watch one full episode of anything. Lots of pauses in the play back but even worse is just getting it to play in the first place, took two reboots last time to get a show to play and then when I switched to the next episode it locked up at me on a black screen and then I tried to go to and play a local recording and the whole thing just rebooted on me. And now i'm sitting here waiting on a reboot. Did they update some software or something? Or are the servers having major problems?
> 
> I've never had any problems at all with the service until tonight.


 I just finished watching 3 hours (3 episodes from MI-5 season 2) of Netflix programming tonight without issue (Orange County, CA).


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## yunlin12

moyekj said:


> I just finished watching 3 hours (3 episodes from MI-5 season 2) of Netflix programming tonight without issue (Orange County, CA).


Not working for me either. Takes a long time to even bring up the instant queue, and tried to play a movie and it rebooted my Tivo S3. Just did a speed test, am getting 7700kbps down.


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## verbaldave

I am also having problems:

My Tivo HD was streaming a variety of Netflix content perfectly until a few days ago. The first issue occurred when my cable modem kicked offline while I was streaming S1 of Friday Night Lights. I don't know if it was my cable Co, or the Tivo (if that is even possible). It froze and I had to unplug to reboot.

Ever since then I've had trouble at various stages. Sometimes I can't get into the VOD menu, other times it hangs when I try to play a Netflix show. Each time requires a hard reboot.

Does anyone know for sure whether Netflix freezes during a network loss causes permanent damage? I'm tempted to jump on the bus and avoid Netflix, but I'm not fully convinced it can cause permanent issues.

I just played Resident Evil: Extinction while reading through the threads and it played perfectly (although in SD).

Thanks


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## berkshires

pdhenry said:


> No. If you stop watching a movie the pause point is saved (so you can "resume playing") until you delete the movie from your Instant Watch Queue.


And every movie in your queue has its own paused point. So you can start dozens of things and return to any one of them where you left off.

Also the paused points are global to your account, so as you go from one TiVo to another, room to room and house to house  , you pick up where you left off.


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## Spunky93

First got the update around 12/15 or so. Worked great for that night. Left for vacation over the holidays and came back to a rebooted Tivo (didn't record anything while I was away).

I can't say for sure but it seems there were two updates released recently. One for the initial software release and then another later on to correct/fix something.

Anyway, been trying since back from vacation to get Netflix to work and simply can't. Tivo gets stuck at "Please Wait" when accessing the VOD option or if I do make it into the VOD menu, I select Netflix and pick a show/movie to watch and nothing, just black screen. Hit my Tivo button and it takes me back to my main Tivo menu but the black screen is still in the back ground with the menu over it. Have to do a hard reboot to get out of that.

I called Tivo about a week ago, the oh so wonderful support told me that she didn't know (that's right DID NOT KNOW) of any issues with Netflix. I told her about the thread started here and that a Tivo director was involved and everything. I was told that all she could do is open a case. Asked to speak to a Sup, "sorry no one is available". Asked to speak to a technician to try to diagnose the issue, "sorry no one is available". Called back in yesterday and there is no record of my case being opened at all!!!!

Tivo really screwed the pooch on this release in my opinion.

At the very least the should put up something on their website but given the amount of advertising and such they've put out I can see why they want to keep this as quiet as possible. Thank goodness for forums like this!


----------



## mikeyts

RAM5 said:


> Now I remember! The reason I canceled my original NetFlix subscription (for DVD's) was that 2/3 of the disks they sent were so badly abused that they stopped working half-way through the movie. So presenting the first half of the show and then leaving you high and dry is a NetFlix trademark!


Now that's bizarre! I've been a Netflix member nearly continously since the year they started (I've had one or two dalliances with Blockbuster.com) and in that time I've seen maybe three or four corrupted discs, out of hundreds.


----------



## Tivohud

I saw the same issues as Spunky93 last night around 11:30pm. Could get into my instant list but then I just get a black screen. I can go back to the Tivo menu but I still have a black background. I eventually have to reboot the Tivo. This is the first issue I've had with Netflix on Tivo.


----------



## yunlin12

Tivohud said:


> I saw the same issues as Spunky93 last night around 11:30pm. Could get into my instant list but then I just get a black screen. I can go back to the Tivo menu but I still have a black background. I eventually have to reboot the Tivo. This is the first issue I've had with Netflix on Tivo.


That's what I saw as well, the instant Q took a long time to load, then when I selected a movie, it just froze on a black screen. I didn't try to back out of it, and my Tivo just rebooted after a minute or so.


----------



## dtplink

My experience has been spotty so far with Netflix. I've had situations with a Pink Floyd interview for example where it was in HD and had to retrieve data every five minutes. Episodes of All Creatures Great and Small have lost all sound 30 minutes or so into the story. Some stop all together and some show diagonal lines through the screen. It seems that there is no saving ahead with data, no buffer, for these downloads. 

I seem to have lost one of my tuners today. Have a multistream card and it may be coincidence but I have been watching a lot of Netflix. 

Have TiVo version 11. My download speed to the TiVo is around 6 Mbs in this room.


----------



## westside_guy

yunlin12 said:


> That's what I saw as well, the instant Q took a long time to load, then when I selected a movie, it just froze on a black screen. I didn't try to back out of it, and my Tivo just rebooted after a minute or so.


Oh good, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who ran into these problems last night!

It seems a bit ridiculous that any add-on software should be able to effectively lock up the Tivo.


----------



## DaveSt

I finally broke down and joined NetFlix today. Immediately streamed Season 1 Episode 1 of "Weeds" to my TiVo HD. No glitches whatsoever (Comcast, Eugene OR). Picture quality is hardly the greatest but it's perfectly watchable, and the convenience factor cannot be beat. I think I'm going to be using this a lot.


----------



## JimPa

I check this thread about once a week to see if the bugs have been worked out for the streaming to S3s. Safe to say that it hasn't?


----------



## berkshires

So far no bug fix update.


----------



## DaveSt

After my previous post, I streamed 2 more episodes of "Weeds". No problems at all.


----------



## moyekj

JimPa said:


> I check this thread about once a week to see if the bugs have been worked out for the streaming to S3s. Safe to say that it hasn't?


 Depends who you ask. Some have issues, others have no issues at all.


----------



## MickeS

berkshires said:


> So far no bug fix update.


Would this be announced though?


----------



## berkshires

MickeS said:


> Would this be announced though?


No, just noticed eventually.


----------



## dmbpj

I watched my first Netflix movie last night on my TiVo HD, 30 Days of Night, and it was a very good experience. Just one spot of buffering for about 30seconds.

Hope they get the bug fix for the S3.


----------



## travisc77

I figured I would chime in on my experience. I really like it, but I have to tell you that about half of the movies I watch (HD or not) seem to have voice/sync issues. Some of them issues are repeatable, and sometimes a pause/restart works to fix the sync issues.

No lockups, or restarts. The menu is pretty responsive (comparatively speaking) and movies start quickly. Just sync issues for me.

Travis


----------



## wm2008

dmbpj said:


> I watched my first Netflix movie last night on my TiVo HD, 30 Days of Night, and it was a very good experience. Just one spot of buffering for about 30seconds.
> 
> Hope they get the bug fix for the S3.


The bug exists in the HD also.


----------



## pdhenry

I had a sync problem develop on one title. I exited out of the title and resumed - it fixed the issue.


----------



## 4wheeljive

Just want to add the voice of another frustrated user experiencing the same problems many describe above (e.g., gray/black screens; tivo system totally locking up when I try to play netflix content; forced to connect to tivo when rebooting following a netflix freeze, etc.).

I have a brand new tivo box, i'm connected to my router via ethernet, and I have 5Mbps DSL service.


----------



## mikeyts

pdhenry said:


> I had a sync problem develop on one title. I exited out of the title and resumed - it fixed the issue.


I've had audio problems continuing from a pause of a recording. SKIP-BACK generally fixes them. Might be a general bug in this firmware version unrelated to Netflix.


----------



## gonzotek

travisc77 said:


> I figured I would chime in on my experience. I really like it, but I have to tell you that about half of the movies I watch (HD or not) seem to have voice/sync issues. Some of them issues are repeatable, and sometimes a pause/restart works to fix the sync issues.
> 
> No lockups, or restarts. The menu is pretty responsive (comparatively speaking) and movies start quickly. Just sync issues for me.
> 
> Travis


This has been my experience since the week after the launch. On launch week I experienced one restart and frequently inaccessible VOD menus. Since that first week, however, only the sync issues have been recurrent. Most titles seem to develop a drift that gets worse over time, and can be corrected by triggering a rebuffering. Some titles have an out-of-sync issue from the start and appear to be bad encodes, they never sync regardless of what I can do on the remote.

I'd report my problem titles to Netflix if they had a web page or on-TiVo facility, but sitting in phone support for something I know I won't be getting any immediate resolution to just doesn't interest me. There really ought to be a way to flag a video you're having an issue with. They have a "report a problem" link in the disc queue, why not for the instant queue too?


----------



## moyekj

Last night I had a lot of stuff going on at same time on my upstairs S3:
* 2 scheduled HD recordings
* MRV transfer from downstairs S3
* Netflix streaming (MI-5 season 2 episode 6)
* At 1 point I was also pulling a program off the S3->PC but I think that started after MRV transfer had completed.
At the time it didn't even dawn on me I should probably not be doing all those things at once but now thinking back I am quite impressed the S3 was able to handle all that at once without problems.


----------



## Spunky93

If you read this thread and get this far please go over here and submit your option.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=415988

Thanks.

The reason I am asking is that I am wondering if the issues we are seeing are related to DSL and PPPOE requiring an MTU of 1492 or less because PPPOE needs the room for the PPOE info. This means that Cable is using an MTU of 1500 and PPPOE requires most people to change their MTU. Some routers can handle this, mine can't so I have to force my machines on my internal network to an MTU of 1492. The Tivo does not have an option to set this as far as I can tell. If this is not done users can generate fragmented packets which a lot of websites can not handle.

Just my $.02


----------



## yunlin12

moyekj said:


> Depends who you ask. Some have issues, others have no issues at all.


Not just an issue of who, but also when. In Dec when I watched Netflix, it worked fine. Just last weekend, when I tried to watch again, it rebooted my Tivo. At the time it happened, I did a speed test and was getting >7Mbps easy.


----------



## RAM5

So about 15 minutes ago I started one of the Dorothy Sayers mysteries from NetFlix. The one I started to watch last night but failed because pressing "Pause" forced reboots of the TiVo S3. 

Of course there was only the Start from Beginning option. So I pressed that, and I'm still waiting with a black screen (...yet another BSOD?) for the "Quality" (sic) bars to appear. As soon as I finish this I'll go back and hit the TiVo button and see if I can find something on cable to watch or if I'll need to reboot.

It's really the forced reboots that are most likely to make me shell out for a Roku Box. Right now attempting to watch ANYTHING on the NetFlix streaming service requires a cost/benefit analysis: Can I get through this before something on the To-Do list is scheduled to be recorded from cable, or am I going to blow a 10 minute hole in two recorded programs because NetFlix streaming hosed my TiVo?

I copied TiVo on my last post two days ago, and they didn't have the courtesy to reply. Maybe if I start forwarding posts to Walt Mossburg......

Thoroughly discouraged...

-- Richard


----------



## mnorton33

Time definitely seems to have something to do with it. Earlier tonight, watched a 1 1/2 hour movie and a 30 minute TV episode with no problems. Just tried to watch another episode of the same TV show and it froze and rebooted twice right after hitting play. Ugh!


----------



## RAM5

Silly me.... *of course it's going to require a reboot!* Pressing the TiVo button gave me the TiVo Central menu with a black background, and naively attempting to play a previously recorded program give me the Black Screen of Death.

Grrrr...... It's really hard to believe TiVo Stephen's claim that the NetFlix streaming service runs on their servers... If that's actually true why does the behavior of the TiVo Central menu change after a Black Screen of Death?

-- Richard


----------



## rodneyremington

DaveSt said:


> I finally broke down and joined NetFlix today. Immediately streamed Season 1 Episode 1 of "Weeds" to my TiVo HD. No glitches whatsoever (Comcast, Eugene OR). Picture quality is hardly the greatest but it's perfectly watchable, and the convenience factor cannot be beat. I think I'm going to be using this a lot.


That's what I thought as well...until I went through about a dozen or so lock-ups and subseqent reboots, each of which takes about 10 minutes. Now every time I use netflix I hold my breath, throw salt over my shoulder, and pluck a 4 leaf clover hoping it won't lock up. Usually it doesn't.


----------



## lkupersmith

FYI - I had a black screen problem while attempting to play from Netflix. After being on with two Netflix reps and one TiVo rep, I've got it figured out.

This started last night and still continues, however it seems to be caused by one bad file. Although I tested many different movies, I always tried the same one first and there's the problem. It seems that the Netflix app gets corrupted in the TiVo HD after trying to play a bad file, so no other file worked. If I play a different file the first thing after starting the Netflix Instant Watch app, it works. If I play the bad file (Ballykissangel series 4, episode 9), nothing works after that until I either restart or sometimes I can get out of the app and VOD menu, and go back in. 

So anyway, just a tip... if you get the black screen problem when playing a file, don't bother trying other programs until you get out and back in to the Netflix app. Hope this saves someone else some time.


----------



## Davepar

Netflix is starting to sour my entire experience with TiVo. I've never had to unplug and reboot the box so many times until I started watching the Netflix movies. Haven't been able to watch an instant movie over the past few days without it locking up the TiVo.

To anybody considering getting Netflix to watch the instant movies, or upgrade their TiVo -> don't bother yet. This thing is half-baked. :down:


----------



## bicker

Davepar said:


> Netflix is starting to sour my entire experience with TiVo.


Ooo.... I'll save this comment up for the next time someone says, about some desired feature, "This must be so easy that they have no excuse not to just do it quickly and give it to us," (like QAM mapping).


----------



## slowbiscuit

Davepar said:


> To anybody considering getting Netflix to watch the instant movies, or upgrade their TiVo -> don't bother yet. This thing is half-baked. :down:


:shrug: Works great for me, everytime. Don't listen to this.


----------



## oViTynoT

> Don't listen to this.


Nah, folks need to listen... There's definitely something amiss. I had to reboot twice last night. That was a first for me.

Tried to watch "Red Dwarf, Series 1, Ep. 3". The banner comes up but the show never played. When I tried to back out of the NetFlix app (using Left-Arrow) I got the "Please Wait..." icon, and the system never came back.

The Remote Activity LED would flash, but the system wouldn't respond.

Tried again about 5 hours later, this time an episode of Emergency Season 1. Same thing. Crash... reboot.

I don't *blame* TiVo for this... It is certainly better than what we had before (which was nothing...) I'm still excited about NetFlix. The day it was activated, I canceled my BlockBuster account and signed onto NetFlix. I've probably watched 2-3 dozen things in the last month; but here lately, it's becoming aggravating.

Please, TiVo / NetFlix... Jump on this bug.


----------



## sriggins

Remember my comment about shipping it when it was done (in early Dec) Well this was clearly not done. TiVo shipped it too soon, too buggy, just to make some holiday date.

Boo.


----------



## Bonanzaair

oViTynoT said:


> Please, TiVo / NetFlix... Jump on this bug.


YES - PLEASE! My S3 still doesn't work with Netflix with the common issue everyone is describing. My HD - works fine everytime.

Bonanza


----------



## PacoII

Well, I too had issues last night. They were pretty bad. No luck on either my TiVo HD nor my Roku. So something was clearly amiss. But I do agree that the Netflix app on TiVo needs a little polish, and needs to handle stream problems better than just rebooting. From my perspective, we are all beta testers at the moment. I've subscribed to Netflix and TiVo for a long time, so this service is additive. I report issues to Netflix about audio video stuff, but don't get angry. I mean really, streaming was given to us for free. For those that may have bought a TiVo HD just for streaming Netflix, well such is the price for being an early adopter.


----------



## fred2

PacoII said:


> So something was clearly amiss. But I do agree that the Netflix app on TiVo needs a little polish, and needs to handle stream problems better than just rebooting. .


I agree. Can you imagine the shouting if each time the video stream was a bit messed up, the TV itself rebooted rather than just waiting a second or two to recover. I still don't understand how a tv signal or netflix broadband stream can so totally bollix up the tivo where it freezes and then needs to have its plug pulled. A plug, in my case, that is not at all easy to get to. It definitely needs better (some??) fault recovery.


----------



## djwilso

fred2 said:


> I agree. Can you imagine the shouting if each time the video stream was a bit messed up, the TV itself rebooted rather than just waiting a second or two to recover. I still don't understand how a tv signal or netflix broadband stream can so totally bollix up the tivo where it freezes and then needs to have its plug pulled. A plug, in my case, that is not at all easy to get to. It definitely needs better (some??) fault recovery.


Totally agreed.

Although I do not know whether this is true, but the TiVo Netflix application has a very "outsourced" feel to it.

If it's anything like the large corporation that I work for, we always (always) have to send software back for multiple iterations before it is acceptable. Too many times, the programmers fail to incorporate exception handling either properly or at all, which can result in errors that are extremely difficult to trace back to their true source.

Interruptions of varying number and duration and even complete loss of network connectivity should be fully expected in a streaming media application. Packet loss and corruption should also be expected and handled gracefully.

Once upon a time, I wrote software that had to be running 24 hours a day and could handle all kinds of interruptions and loss of communication on multiple simultaneously-connected serial ports. And, when communications were restored, the application had to intelligently retry and restore the link, all the while not causing the user any interruption on the client-side. I have a feeling that the TiVo Netflix application is not multithreaded, but it would need to be to remain responsive to the user at all times.

I continue to hope that TiVo or its outsourced vendor partner will be able to resolve the app's issues. I'd like to be able to sell my Roku box, but I can't until the issues are resolved.

Dennis


----------



## kevinivey

never had a problem playing any HD movie from Netflix. Using a Tivo HD and a cable connection of 2 up and 8 down.


----------



## oViTynoT

I'm using FiOS 5 up, 20 down. Still have problems. It's an S3.


----------



## 4wheeljive

As I noted above, I've experienced many of the problems reported on this thread (Netflix app becoming unresponsive, causing TiVo system freezes, black screen of death, etc.)

I spent about an hour on the phone last night discussing the Neflix issues with a very helpful TiVo tech rep. Unfortunately, there is no known fix to the issues yet, and I got the sense that any Netflix/TiVo software updates are at least a few weeks away. However, I was encouraged to confirm that TiVo engineers are paying attention to this thread and seem to recognize that there are some serious issues with the Netflix offering.

My S3 TiVo is connected to a 5 down / 1 up DSL via a wired router. One thing the TiVo tech rep suggested that seemed to help a little was "renewing the TiVo lease" on the router by shutting down the router, rebooting TiVo, and then restarting the router. Interestingly, after I did this, the Netflix application became much more responsive. Navigating the Netflix menu became pretty "snappy" and I was able to successfully start a number of Netflix videos. There still seemed to be a few pauses and "hiccups," but there was a noticeable improvement overall. 

I'll report back after a little more use.

My TiVo case number was 10632874.


----------



## pdhenry

Is there a common thread of issues beingh with S3 units?

I've had bandwidth-related issues on my HD but no reboots. I've lost channels once but couldn't specifically tie that to Netflix.

So, any TiVo HD users having significant issues?


----------



## moyekj

pdhenry said:


> Is there a common thread of issues beingh with S3 units?
> 
> I've had bandwidth-related issues on my HD but no reboots. I've lost channels once but couldn't specifically tie that to Netflix.
> 
> So, any TiVo HD users having significant issues?


 Works fine on my 2 S3 units - I have not had any rebooting issues and I use Netflix/Tivo almost every day. I have seen complaints from THD users as well as S3 users.
There was a thread about DSL potentially causing more issues than other broadband connections but I don't know if anything conclusive came out of that.


----------



## mikeyts

I've had relatively few problems using Netflix with my HD, though I did have to reboot once, weeks ago. I'm not using it daily anymore, but I watched several dozens of hours in the few weeks after it launched.


----------



## bigguy126

Been watching netflix without many problems, except for the last 2 days. I'm watching a movie and just out of the blue it throws me back to the last TV channel I was watching. Happened 4 times over the last 2 days. I have a hard wired ethernet connection, so I'm pretty sure it is not my connection.


----------



## hyvonen

Is there a place to list streaming netflix movies that have missing audio?

-The Orphanage: no audio (works w/ Silverlight)
-Mandela and de Klerk: no audio (works w/ Silverlight)


----------



## CheezWiz

I have posted in multiple threads that I positively identified my Netflix/lockup/rebooting issues directly to overheating. Not a single person has commented or even offered to check their own temps when this is happening. I have since cut a hole in the back of my entertainment center and added an 80mm cooling fan and I no longer have problems. 

Whenever my S3 started acting slow and sluggish or buggy like black backgrounds after using netflix, the internal temp had moved above 52 degrees.

During normal operation my S3 rarely goes above 48. After the mod, it rarely goes above 51c using Netflix.


----------



## moyekj

CheezWiz said:


> I have posted in multiple threads that I positively identified my Netflix/lockup/rebooting issues directly to overheating. Not a single person has commented or even offered to check their own temps when this is happening. I have since cut a hole in the back of my entertainment center and added an 80mm cooling fan and I no longer have problems.
> 
> Whenever my S3 started acting slow and sluggish or buggy like black backgrounds after using netflix, the internal temp had moved above 52 degrees.
> 
> During normal operation my S3 rarely goes above 48. After the mod, it rarely goes above 51c using Netflix.


 I beg to differ, I did check and post about it, see:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6975499#post6975499


moyekj said:


> FYI, I finally did get to test the S3 temperature during Netflix use.
> From System Information I made note of temp before having used Netflix in a long while: 42 C
> Then I watched a 52 minute episode (SD 10/11 bars) from Netflix and then went to system information again. Still 42 C.
> 
> So at least SD versions of Netflix streaming seem to effect no further temperature stress. Didn't try HD streams but I would bet it's no different either.


----------



## Spunky93

Well, well. Be still my heart.

The stupid thing actually works tonight.

Just finished watching "The Omega Man". No issues at all.

Haven't even rebooted the unit for 4 days (since my last attempt).


----------



## jpascone

dig_duggler said:


> Wow. Tivo has acknowledged a problem that might cause your unit to not boot (and based on chapmangeo' post doesn't even really seem to understand it) which seems to be your case and you pass hard drive tests and they still want $150?
> 
> Wow. Wow. Wow.
> 
> Could it be something else? Sure. But this is not taking care of your customers.


Interesting, the first time I ever attempted to stream a netflix movie my Series III crashed, burned and never returned.. I had to pay the $150.00 to get a new unit..


----------



## jpascone

I have an S3 unit.. On 90% of the movies my bandwidth meter goes to HD and I can watch the movie with no issues what so ever.. There are certain movies however which everytime when selected from my queue will only display about 50-60% on the bandwidth meter, the screen will go gray and I can hear audio fine but no video.. I am currently having this problem with Goodfellas and Fallen. Is this a common problem with Series 3 units and specific movies? Thanks!
jp


----------



## jpascone

hyvonen said:


> Is there a place to list streaming netflix movies that have missing audio?
> 
> -The Orphanage: no audio (works w/ Silverlight)
> -Mandela and de Klerk: no audio (works w/ Silverlight)


As an FYI, I tested these titles and indeed no audio on my S3.


----------



## drewpydog

I've got an S3 and a THD - both using 6 down/512 up DSL, new Belkin N+ router, and Tivo wireless adapters. I get the "retrieving" message every 30-60s. I took the wireless out of the picture and strung an ethernet cable out the window to the S3, still "retrieving". I then watched "Ghostbusters" wirelessly on my laptop and had no buffering for the whole time I watched it (~45 minutes). I think I have troubleshot this thing to death, and the only thing I can come up with is the Tivo software. 

I just want a stable stream. HD or 11/13 bars would be nice, but I would settle for next-to-Youtube quality if it would just stop "retrieving"!


----------



## anom

I haven't had the huge instability problems that some have experienced (aside from one crash), but several movies that are supposedly available in HD simply aren't (Pan's Labyrinth and La Vie En Rose come to mind).

I've tried them several times with no luck, while other movies consistently come in HD with no problems.


----------



## jpascone

anom said:


> I haven't had the huge instability problems that some have experienced (aside from one crash), but several movies that are supposedly available in HD simply aren't (Pan's Labyrinth and La Vie En Rose come to mind).
> 
> I've tried them several times with no luck, while other movies consistently come in HD with no problems.


How do you know you are pulling down HD?? When the bandwidth meter says HD or is there someway to pull up info to determine exact resolution while playing a movie?


----------



## mikeyts

jpascone said:


> How do you know you are pulling down HD?? When the bandwidth meter says HD or is there someway to pull up info to determine exact resolution while playing a movie?


The bandwidth meter when you start is an indication; if it says HD when you start and you don't get any pause to switch to a lower bit rate stream then it's still HD. If you hit the SKIP-BACK button on the remote, it'll go back several seconds and display the bit rate indicator while it buffers.


----------



## ched

- Slow menu navigation / browsing of my netflix queue on Tivo -

I have read various posts about general slow menu navigation on the VOD menus, and slow browsing of netflix queue, but how slow?

On a given day, the first time I browse my queue of about 30 titles, it takes several seconds to load initial page, and 15-30 seconds to page down. *Really. 15-30 seconds.* Count to 30 Mississippi right now and tell me how painful that is. Once I have been through all the pages, the navigation is reasonable. Also, it seems to cache this for a while, as it continues to be smoothish for hours (however, the next day it is back to 30 Mississippi).

Is it this slow for everyone else? If so, how come yall (yes, from Texas) aren't excited about this? I can't believe my wife lets me keep it.

I understand that we have to talk to the Tivo server and such (for security reasons?) but I dont see any technical reason for a page of movie titles and thumbnails to take 30 seconds to load. And my internet is fine. I can stream HD titles without a hitch. I experienced the same menu slowness on Cable internet before switching to DSL.


----------



## yunlin12

After Netflix rebooted my S3 on Sat, now it appears to be back to normal. I was able to watch Netflix. However, loading the instant Q takes a long time as previous poster noted. I observe the same behavior, initial loading is painfully slow, but after that things go fine.


----------



## moyekj

ched said:


> - Slow menu navigation / browsing of my netflix queue on Tivo -
> 
> I have read various posts about general slow menu navigation on the VOD menus, and slow browsing of netflix queue, but how slow?
> 
> On a given day, the first time I browse my queue of about 30 titles, it takes several seconds to load initial page, and 15-30 seconds to page down. *Really. 15-30 seconds.* Count to 30 Mississippi right now and tell me how painful that is. Once I have been through all the pages, the navigation is reasonable. Also, it seems to cache this for a while, as it continues to be smoothish for hours (however, the next day it is back to 30 Mississippi).
> 
> Is it this slow for everyone else? If so, how come yall (yes, from Texas) aren't excited about this? I can't believe my wife lets me keep it.
> 
> I understand that we have to talk to the Tivo server and such (for security reasons?) but I dont see any technical reason for a page of movie titles and thumbnails to take 30 seconds to load. And my internet is fine. I can stream HD titles without a hitch. I experienced the same menu slowness on Cable internet before switching to DSL.


I have over 100 titles in my instant queue right now and have not noticed excess sluggishness. It's by no means zippy but initial screen only takes 5 seconds or so to load and paging up and down is fairly quick. I've certainly not seen 30 seconds to load the page before. I also don't have any issues viewing titles (as people are probably getting sick of reading me say so).


----------



## Jack D

For the record, I have an S3. I tried NF several times with several movies. I get to the point where the "quality" meter shows up and then the time bar at the bottom of the screen that shows how long the movie is. Then the Tivo reboots.

Spoke with NF techs. They deactivated and reactived my account and had me power cycle the Tivo. No luck. Said to speak with Tivo support.

After about 30 minutes on the line with Tivo support they admitted that there are problems and they are working on them but no promise of when they would be resolved. The guy said to check every few weeks to see if I can play a movie from NF. At least they admitted that there are problems.....


----------



## moyekj

Jack D said:


> For the record, I have an S3. I tried NF several times with several movies. I get to the point where the "quality" meter shows up and then the time bar at the bottom of the screen that shows how long the movie is. Then the Tivo reboots.
> 
> Spoke with NF techs. They deactivated and reactived my account and had me power cycle the Tivo. No luck. Said to speak with Tivo support.
> 
> After about 30 minutes on the line with Tivo support they admitted that there are problems and they are working on them but no promise of when they would be resolved. The guy said to check every few weeks to see if I can play a movie from NF. At least they admitted that there are problems.....


 Out of curiosity is your broadband DSL or cable (or other)?


----------



## Jack D

moyekj said:


> Out of curiosity is your broadband DSL or cable (or other)?


Comcast cable.


----------



## alansh

RAM5 said:


> Grrrr...... It's really hard to believe TiVo Stephen's claim that the NetFlix streaming service runs on their servers... If that's actually true why does the behavior of the TiVo Central menu change after a Black Screen of Death?


The main menu background is a video loop. It looks like the Netflix app is hosing the video decoder in the TiVo, causing the black screen of death.

I tried an episode of "Lilo & Stich" a week ago and it worked fine. However, I've been trying to watch "The Andromeda Strain" tonight and am having problems, mainly the black screen which requires a reboot. It seems okay if it's just played from the start without pausing, but any trickplay features seem to bother it.


----------



## caspian31

Jack D said:


> For the record, I have an S3. I tried NF several times with several movies. I get to the point where the "quality" meter shows up and then the time bar at the bottom of the screen that shows how long the movie is. Then the Tivo reboots.
> 
> Spoke with NF techs. They deactivated and reactived my account and had me power cycle the Tivo. No luck. Said to speak with Tivo support.
> 
> After about 30 minutes on the line with Tivo support they admitted that there are problems and they are working on them but no promise of when they would be resolved. The guy said to check every few weeks to see if I can play a movie from NF. At least they admitted that there are problems.....


I have the same problem with my S3. I have tried HDMI and Component and many different outputs but the most I have seen is like one frame of video before the tivo reboots itself. Guess I will stick with streaming from my laptop even though it isnt in HD.


----------



## inahaz

I just added netflix last weekend and will add a couple comments re: my experience.

- Linked one Netflix account to two of my Tivo's (both THD's). Both are using HDMI out. One to a Sony, another to a Sanyo projector.

- When exiting a movie, the Please Wait oval seems to hang. I've found pressing the Live TV button quickly gets out of it.

- I have only encountered audio / video sync problems when using fast forward or reverse while watching a movie. It happens every time I use it on both THD's. It is easily fixed by exiting the movie to the netflix instant movie queue, then re-selecting the movie. This is more of a nag than anything.

- Knock on wood, no reboots. 

- I've played around with several different movies (HD, standard, TV series, long movies, etc.). Quality is hit or miss, but some of the HD movies are pretty decent. 

Seems like a pretty neat concept. I switched to netflix from blockbuster as this appears to be a better value and less effort going to the store. 

(Now hopefully I won't be posting in a few days saying it isn't working...) Good luck to all in resolving your issues.


----------



## richlove

TiVoStephen said:


> Ted, if you haven't used the Netflix application, then this thread doesn't apply to you. The Netflix application itself doesn't change any of the code on your box. (The Netflix application runs on our servers, not on your box.)


Yea, but it is possible that the TIVO firmware upgrade that added Netflix capability has caused all of these strange new problems.
That would explain why you might have problems even if you have never used Netflix.

Rich


----------



## mikeyts

richlove said:


> Yea, but it is possible that the TIVO firmware upgrade that added Netflix capability has caused all of these strange new problems.
> That would explain why you might have problems even if you have never used Netflix.


He didn't say that the problem wasn't caused by the 11.0 upgrade, just that his report of it doesn't belong in a thread entitled "Netflix issues". I'm sure that an upgrade from 9.4 to 11.0 did a lot more than just add the trappings necessary for the Netflix streaming trick and any of that could be causing that guy's problems. This thread explicitly requests reports of problems using the Netflix Watch Instantly app and the guy started his post with "I haven't used the Netflix app"--nothing that he had to say could be on topic.


----------



## spolebitski

Just watched a show on netflix via tivo, the tivo froze so I restated now I wont boot up after several restarts (unplugs).

Any suggestions?


----------



## jeffdoering

This feature is a great concept and very convenient when it works. Too bad the implementation is garbage. After watching a few 100% successful shows; I've now had enough total lockups to fear using this feature likes others on this thread.

I have a good internet connection (15 down/ 768 up - DSL) and zero Internet connectivity problems from my PCs during the same time the Tivo hung.

The biggest disappointment here is that such severe bug has been open so long. This issue totally locks the unit requiring a hard power cycling. That's ridiculous and should have had a patch out in days or a week or two; not weeks to months. I don't care so much if the Netflix stream dies once in awhile; but the locking of the whole machine should be a top priority issue for Tivo - engineers working 24x7 for a fix, etc - that's the right way in the software world.

Either Tivo's not putting enough resources on this or if they've been working this 24x7 for weeks then they have pretty disappointing engineering compentence. Again - it's not about a fully regression tested complete fix; just an initial solution to keep the machines from hanging (or temporarily pull the feature if basic stability can't be achieved).

-Jeff


----------



## jakerome

It's still all sorts of messed up. After it crashed in 3 attempts over 2 days, I didn't use it for a month. I tried again today, and now I just get a big Netflix Error. First it's a communication error, then it's an unexpected error. Whatever it is, it doesn't work.

I was trying to convince 2 friends to buy TiVoes because of Netflix, and I pretty much have to tell them it might be useless for that or could even break it. I doubt they'll be buying TiVoes. Far & away my worst experience with TiVoes in 8.5 years.


----------



## fishboy

spolebitski said:


> Just watched a show on netflix via tivo, the tivo froze so I restated now I wont boot up after several restarts (unplugs).
> 
> Any suggestions?


Having the same issues. Just happened about 30 minutes ago. Watching a movie on NetFlix, Tivo completely froze up and nothing would un-freeze it. Pulled the plug (twice now) and upon boot up it freezes at "Almost there. Just a few minutes more"... going on 20 minutes since the last reboot. I don't have much hope.

Also, I have a second identical TivoHD upstairs, so I went up there to see if I could pull up the same movie and continue watching, but now getting a couple of different error messages there too.

Ugh... if anyone figures this out, please post it. I hope this service did not screw up my Tivo harddrive.


----------



## shamilian

Netfix seems to have killed my Tivo too.

I have been watching Netflix for about a month now.
It has gotten messed up at times but I have always been
able to use the Tivo button to get out and restart the system.

Today after my movie ended I tried to remove the movie from
the instant queue and the Tivo hung. Even the yellow light was 
stuck on.

I have tried 2 hard boots, but I am stuck on the screen
that says "Almost there. Just a few minutes more..."

I will be canceling my Netflix, it is not worth the aggravation.

Any help/pointers to bring it back to life would be appreciated.


----------



## tivowiz

I just watched a Netflix movie, after the end when I left-arrowed to go back it gave me a Netflix arrow and said press "Select to continue" at that point the Tivo was froze, after two plug-pulls it finally came back. I've only had Netflix reboot me once before.
All in all, I'm very impressed with Netflix, and, hope that it only get's better. Over Christmas I watched season 2 &3 of Heroes, almost all the episodes displayed in "HD", at least that's what my TV & eyes reported to me. However, it's been hard pressed to get HD lately - most likely a fault of my broadband connection and not Tivo or Netflix.


----------



## jgantert

So what's up with Netflix tonight? I can't even get into my queue. It keeps on locking up my Tivo HD unit. Strange, I haven't had any issues up until today. It locks up at "please wait" when it goes to load the queue. A hard reboot fixes it and it comes back fine. Amazon and Jamon seem fine.

So is anyone else have any luck with Netflix tonight 1/17?


----------



## donsig

Was just watching a CSI via Netflix and the tivo hung - coincidently around 10:00 pm Eastern as in the several previous posts. It acted as if the network dropped and tried to re-buffer, but eventually just hung. Computers on the network worked fine. Pulled the plug, but tivo hung at "Almost there. Just a few minutes more..." for about 15 minutes. Pulled the plug a second time and rebooted successfully. However, I still get errors when trying to connect to netflix. Sometimes the queue will display partially, but I get an error when scrolling down - even after rebooting my cable modem and wireless router. 

Note to shamilian - double check that your tivo is on the network. The original post from TivoStephen indicates the tivo will hang on reboot if no network is present.


----------



## jpagan

I just finished watching a movie on NetFlix and now my TiVo wont reboot. Like others I am stuck at the "Almost there. Just a few minutes more...". I unplugged the TiVo twice. I have had strange anomalies watching NetFlix but nothing like this. Also I have seen when my TiVo reboots just before the NetFlix movie starts playing.


----------



## dotorg

shamilian said:


> Netfix seems to have killed my Tivo too.
> 
> I have been watching Netflix for about a month now.
> It has gotten messed up at times but I have always been
> able to use the Tivo button to get out and restart the system.
> 
> Today after my movie ended I tried to remove the movie from
> the instant queue and the Tivo hung. Even the yellow light was
> stuck on.
> 
> I have tried 2 hard boots, but I am stuck on the screen
> that says "Almost there. Just a few minutes more..."
> 
> I will be canceling my Netflix, it is not worth the aggravation.
> 
> Any help/pointers to bring it back to life would be appreciated.


I just had the exact thing happen. Tivo hung when I tried to remove a movie I'd finished watching from the instant queue, and now the box is dead. Let it sit for a half hour on the "Almost there" screen the first time, and its going on 45 now on my second try.

I had it hang once this morning in the Netflix app and although it took 15 minutes to reboot, it did come up. It sure as hell looks like my box is dead now, though.

Has anyone figured anything at all out with this?


----------



## tootal2

tivowiz said:


> I just watched a Netflix movie, after the end when I left-arrowed to go back it gave me a Netflix arrow and said press "Select to continue" at that point the Tivo was froze, after two plug-pulls it finally came back. I've only had Netflix reboot me once before.
> All in all, I'm very impressed with Netflix, and, hope that it only get's better. Over Christmas I watched season 2 &3 of Heroes, almost all the episodes displayed in "HD", at least that's what my TV & eyes reported to me. However, it's been hard pressed to get HD lately - most likely a fault of my broadband connection and not Tivo or Netflix.


The same thing just happened to me. I unpluged it the first time and waited for 20 mins it was stuck at a few mins more screen. then i unpluged it again and it worked.
I think i will just use the netflix player in my blu-ray player


----------



## jpagan

After 4 unplugs it finally recovered. I find it interesting that there were several reports of this between 9 and 10 PM CST. Coincidence?


----------



## Jfg

I had the same problem around 10pm; I was watching Netflix and it locked-up, so I had to reboot. Then I was dumb enough to try Netflix again, and it locked-up AGAIN, and I had to reboot a second time. Now I'm afraid to use Netflix at all; it's too frustrating!!!


----------



## donsig

There is definitely some network weirdness this evening. One of the error messages I got while trying to connect to the netflix service (after previous hang /reboot issue above) said to try connecting to the tivo service under settings/network & phone. Just tried that - it was slow and I went back to live tv while the connection continued. The tivo spontaneously rebooted after a few minutes. The tivo came back up ok. The network status page now reports an unrecoverable error as the status of the last attempt to connect to tivo. Giving up on connecting to netflix and tivo this evening. At least I can watch live tv and saved shows for now...


----------



## pdhenry

I tried to go into Netflix around 10:30 and got a lockup on a *Please Wait...* screen, so I'd say it was network related.

We know that if you lose network connectivity while watching Netflix the TiVo will lock up and you can't reboot successfully until you have a network connection again. Apparently the same thing happens if the connection fails at the TiVo/Netflix end.


----------



## jpascone

I almost lost my second Series III unit in 3 weeks while using the Netflix feature... The first unit I had to send back in and purchase a a replacement.. This time I had to plug/unplug a dozen times and by the grace of God it worked.. There is an obvious flaw with the new Netflix feature.. In both instances the unit froze while watching a Netflix movie and my Tivo never freezes. I wish they would acknowledge this as a programming error, I had to shell out $150.00 last time to get a replacement unit.


----------



## morac

The problem with the lock ups is documented in the first post in this thread. If you are streaming Netflix and the stream stops there's a chance the TiVo will lock up (probably because the decoder chip can't handle the stream dropping out). Since it's happening to a bunch of people tonight, there's probably an issue with Netflix's servers.

As for the long boot up time, the only official word on that is in the first post.



TiVoStephen said:


> However, if you still do not have network connectivity during the boot up process, the boot will not finish. So you MUST have a working network to reboot, if you experience a freeze while using the Netflix application. If your reboot seems to take a long time (e.g. more than 5 minutes) we suggest that you confirm your network is up and running (e.g. verify with a PC on the network).


----------



## Lazlo Nibble

moyekj said:


> I have over 100 titles in my instant queue right now and have not noticed excess sluggishness. It's by no means zippy but initial screen only takes 5 seconds or so to load and paging up and down is fairly quick. I've certainly not seen 30 seconds to load the page before.


The Instant Queue pages have consistently taken 30-60 seconds/page to display for us -- and as of last night we're in the Netflix Crash & Reboot club too. 

According to my router logs, the latter isn't a network connectivity problem either...at least not on our side of the connection.


----------



## mrjosh

Lazlo Nibble said:


> The Instant Queue pages have consistently taken 30-60 seconds/page to display for us -- and as of last night we're in the Netflix Crash & Reboot club too.
> 
> According to my router logs, the latter isn't a network connectivity problem either...at least not on our side of the connection.


So last night probably wasn't a good night to use Netflix on Tivo for the first time? We were so disappointed--went through the trouble of singing up for the free trial, picked some instant movies to watch, and planted ourselves in front of the TV to watch only to have either the communication problems described above or the black screen freeze that rendered the Tivo unresponsive to the remote and required a reboot...several times. Very frustrating. I've never had any problems with Amazon or Youtube before and my wireless connection is really good. I hope that if this is Netflix, it gets better. If it doesn't, we'll cancel our free trial within the next 13 days.


----------



## spolebitski

spolebitski said:


> Just watched a show on netflix via tivo, the tivo froze so I restated now I wont boot up after several restarts (unplugs).
> 
> Any suggestions?


Overnight it fixed it self and works again.


----------



## mikeyts

Lazlo Nibble said:


> The Instant Queue pages have consistently taken 30-60 seconds/page to display for us...


I've played with this and I think that the delays there might be related to time required to load the list (maybe it prefetches all of the cover graphics and descriptions). The first time I hit PAGE DOWN it takes about 16 seconds, then the next couple of pages are fast (about a second) then another 16 second delay, then one more, then the rest of it's fast (there are 58 items in my Instant Queue). After I've paged through the entire list, paging up and down through it is fluidly quick. It seems to keep the information cached and paging through the list stays quick even when I come back to it from streaming something, or come back to it from live TV.

I don't know how this plays out if you have hundreds of items in your queue. It might not be able to cache all of the necessary information. There really ought to be a way of arranging the queue into folders (other than the folders for TV seasons and miniseries).


----------



## pdhenry

I get my Instant Queue within about 10 seconds and then Page down is instantaneous. I have about 15 titles in my Queue (what's the point of having more?).


----------



## ched

Lazlo Nibble said:


> The Instant Queue pages have consistently taken 30-60 seconds/page to display for us -- and as of last night we're in the Netflix Crash & Reboot club too.
> 
> According to my router logs, the latter isn't a network connectivity problem either...at least not on our side of the connection.


I *think* the slow queue pages may be fixed for me now. A few days ago I rebooted Tivo (again) and removed pyTivo and Audio Faucet apps from my desktop computer. So I am not sure which of these may have solved it, but since doing this my initial page takes 3-4 seconds to load, and scrolling through instant queue pages is plenty fast.


----------



## mikeyts

pdhenry said:


> I get my Instant Queue within about 10 seconds and then Page down is instantaneous. I have about 15 titles in my Queue (what's the point of having more?).


Hey--if, when browsing through the Watch Instantly titles you only find 15 things interesting, cool. Otherwise, why wouldn't you add them to your Instant Queue?


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## leedalton67

How long should the reboot process take? I was watching NETFLIX last night, I locked up. I tried unplugging and got to the "almost there" screen and nothing. I called tech support, the first guy told me to unplug the wireless connector from my TIVO and reboot, 7 hours later nothing. The guy this morning told me to reboot my router and then restart my TIVO. I have done both but I am still sitting on the "almost there screen"


----------



## Czachorski

My wife and I saw the Netflix trial on Tivo and were excited by the potential of VOD. We signed up for a trial a few days ago, watched a few movies, and experienced the lock-up and reboot described by others, apparently from a dropped network connection. For several hours after that, upon trying to enter Netflix, my Tivo either locked and required a reboot just from going into the Netflix menu, or said that there is a Netflix error in communicating with the network. I confirmed that my network was working just fine, and even rebooted my router just for good measure, all with no effect. After 4-5 reboots and waiting 12 hours (thus killing the best part of Saturday night movie night), it finally started working again this morning.

Needless to say, if this behavior continues, we will not be extending our Netflix trial into a subscription. I am very disappointed in the general implementation of Netflix on Tivo, which is surprising, because Tivo has consistently delighted us and exceeded our expectations at just about everything else to this point (been a Tivo users since March 2002 and have 3 of them). The UI for netflix looks different and clunkier (and inconsistent user interfaces are a pet peeve of mine - one of the reasons we love everything else about Tivo so much - it's so consistent), the 6 second back and rewind features are clunky and slow, and the whole thing just feels very shaky and unstable. Very un-Tivo like!

Hope they fix this and make Netflix service up to their usual high standards!


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## leedalton67

How long did you wait in between boot attempts of your TIVO. I have been sitting on the almost there screen for 30 minutes now.


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## Czachorski

leedalton67 said:


> How long did you wait in between boot attempts of your TIVO. I have been sitting on the almost there screen for 30 minutes now.


We did 3-4 reboots right in a row last night - they resulted in the Tivo rebooting fine (except one), but with the persistent inability to communicate with Netflix. The morning, I tried netflix, it locked the whole Tivo up at the netflix menu, I rebooted again, and now Netflix is working.

During one of our reboots last night, it got stuck on the almost there screen, and we re-booted it again, and it came back fine. After that long on the almost there screen, something went wrong, and I would start the reboot over. This is why *I HATE* rebooting my Tivo - the reboots take time and sometimes flake out and it makes me nervous about missing programming set to record. That is why if this behavior persists with Netflix at all, we will not be risking ever using the Netflix service in our house.


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## leedalton67

I have been using Netflix since the first day is was offered with no issues until last night. I am now nervous about using it. I still haven't got my TIVO to reboot. I am going to reset my wireless router and then try rebooting again. I called tech support and was told to call back on Tuesday.


----------



## Czachorski

leedalton67 said:


> I have been using Netflix since the first day is was offered with no issues until last night. I am now nervous about using it. I still haven't got my TIVO to reboot. I am going to reset my wireless router and then try rebooting again. I called tech support and was told to call back on Tuesday.


Verify on your computer that you have web access. From reading earlier posts in this thread, it appears that after such a crash, you have to have access to the network to reboot. (what a major bug).


----------



## leedalton67

I am posting these on my lap top on the wireless network so I have connectivity. I just rebooted the TIVO and am hoping this does the trick. I have a cable card installed and can't get my HD channels without it.


----------



## leedalton67

It finally worked. I am going to stay away from NETFLIX for a while. Thanks.


----------



## morac

leedalton67 said:


> I am posting these on my lap top on the wireless network so I have connectivity. I just rebooted the TIVO and am hoping this does the trick. I have a cable card installed and can't get my HD channels without it.


If all else fails, you could try connecting your TiVo directly to your router via cables. This would eliminate any potential wireless issues. Once it boots up, you can then switch it back to wireless.

Depending on where your router and TiVo are, this may be easier said then done.


----------



## szurlo

I'm beginning to wonder if the long delay some are seeing before they can do a successful reboot is somehow related to the other issue TivoStephen mentioned in the first post where Netflix can get confused and think you are still streaming when you aren't. Perhaps when the Tivo boots, it is somehow being stalled if it and/or Netflix still thinks their is a stream active. TivoStephen said it can take up to 24 hours to clear a "hung" stream. That would explain why some people can boot after waiting several hours/overnight.


----------



## fred2

As was said in this thread (or perhaps the other netflix' threads), I don't care if Netflix has problems and the data is fouled up and it has sync problems or lag problems or the quality is not what is hoped for. Those are relatively minor issues. The system needs MUCH BETTER fault-tolerance. Just because the input stream gets munged up does not mean it is reasonable or acceptable for Tivo to lockup and require a reboot. Just because the network has issues or goes down does not make it acceptable for tivo to follow ungracefully to a lockup. 

Since tivo controls the streaming of the data OUT of the system, why can't they introduce another slight delay in dealing with the data. BAD DATA - shunt off to the side, display an apology message, even end the netflix transmission but not lock up. 

I know that Tivo has had this problem in other areas - the so-called toxic transmission/data - where when viewing a NowPlaying entry, the tivo locks up, reboot necessary, replay the show and it locks up in the exact same place - why can't this be handled more gracefully. It's not as if the data took a physical chunk out of the harddisk although Tivo treats it almost the same. Why can't they handle bad data in a better fashion. Maybe it they addressed it in one place, that would address bad data in multiple places including the netflix areas.

And YES, I know it is only TV, and not a heart-lung machine but there should be better programming standards, I'd think.

I read about an entire night of blown out tivos and I have to wonder........ (yeah, I'm sure it was not every tivo on netflix but it seems like quite a few)

Just one person's opinion.


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## careysm

Ugh....

I was a Blockbuster subscriber until I heard about the Netflix/Tivo thing and quickly switched to Netflix. I've watched a couple of movies successfully but last night we sat down with the kids to watch "Short Circuit". We got until 20 minutes were left in the movie (after multiple interruptions for "retrieving data"). My son paused it to go to the bathroom and all hell broke loose.

The box locked up. I couldn't get it back after a reboot so I had to send the kids to bed
without seeing the rest of the movie. Once I read Tivo Stephen's entry here, I plugged my wireless adapter back in and rebooted successfully.

This morning, I was able to start the movie from where we left off but unfortunately I'm only getting audio (no video and it's been running for 10mins). I've tried starting, stopping fast forwarding, but no luck.

I love TiVo but this is not by first battle with product quality. (I'm on my 4th TiVo Series 3 box but I won't get in those details here). I'm dropping Netflix and going back to Blockbuster (I've found that Blockbuster has more movie DVDs readily available anyway).

I'm excited about all of the new features Tivo is making available (this being one of them), but if it's clearly not ready for mainstream as in this case, they should at least let us know that by declaring it beta code. Shame on Netflix/Tivo.


----------



## Czachorski

szurlo said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if the long delay some are seeing before they can do a successful reboot is somehow related to the other issue TivoStephen mentioned in the first post where Netflix can get confused and think you are still streaming when you aren't. Perhaps when the Tivo boots, it is somehow being stalled if it and/or Netflix still thinks their is a stream active. TivoStephen said it can take up to 24 hours to clear a "hung" stream. That would explain why some people can boot after waiting several hours/overnight.


I can forgive Tivo for the venial sin of the netflix stream dropping, and thus losing the Netflix service for a bit if Netflix is confused and thinks that a stream is still playing. But I can not forgive them for the Mortal sin of a dropped netflix stream locking the entire Tivo up and requiring a reboot (or several) and putting other recordings at risk.


----------



## Czachorski

careysm said:


> The box locked up. I couldn't get it back after a reboot so I had to send the kids to bed
> without seeing the rest of the movie.


That's very bad. I hope they recognize the severity of this bug and the impact that is has on their otherwise splendid user experience. A freeze up that prevents the user from finishing shows and risk losing new recordings during the reboot(s) is very bad for a device designed to function as your main portal to all TV.


----------



## tootal2

leedalton67 said:


> How long should the reboot process take? I was watching NETFLIX last night, I locked up. I tried unplugging and got to the "almost there" screen and nothing. I called tech support, the first guy told me to unplug the wireless connector from my TIVO and reboot, 7 hours later nothing. The guy this morning told me to reboot my router and then restart my TIVO. I have done both but I am still sitting on the "almost there screen"


Just keep unpluging it till it works. Thats what i did. It should take 5 to 10 min to boot up. Im scared to use netflix on my tivo now


----------



## DZeckhausen

leedalton67 said:


> How long should the reboot process take? I was watching NETFLIX last night, I locked up. I tried unplugging and got to the "almost there" screen and nothing. I called tech support, the first guy told me to unplug the wireless connector from my TIVO and reboot, 7 hours later nothing. The guy this morning told me to reboot my router and then restart my TIVO. I have done both but I am still sitting on the "almost there screen"


I had exactly the same thing happen to me last night, around 10PM eastern time. After staring at the "almost there" screen for way too long, I tried rebooting again. This time, the TiVo came back all the way, but the 2nd part of the reboot process took much longer than I'm used to.


----------



## pdhenry

AFAIK there was a Netflix/TiVo outage last night on their end - it seems that lots of people were affected, including inability to reboot during the outage.

I just finished watching a Netflix movie on my TiVo HD so it appears that things are mostly back...


----------



## jpagan

My girls are currently watching NetFlix on TiVo. I cross my fingers that it wont lock up again like it did last night.


----------



## PacoII

I really hope TiVo is taking note of this thread, and realizes they need to update their Netflix 'app' to handle issues better. I use both my TiVo and Roku box to stream Netflix, and while I tend to favor the TiVo UI, the Roku player is much more stable and robust when problems do come up (such as Netflix streaming outages).


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## leedalton67

I think the key to getting my TIVO to reboot was restarting the router and waiting longer with the TIVO unplugged. I restarted the router with the TIVO unplugged for about 10 minutes and then restarted the TIVO and it finally booted.


----------



## Czachorski

leedalton67 said:


> I think the key to getting my TIVO to reboot was restarting the router and waiting longer with the TIVO unplugged. I restarted the router with the TIVO unplugged for about 10 minutes and then restarted the TIVO and it finally booted.


Thanks for the feedback - that makes a lot of sense, and is consistent with what I did to get Tivo back up. The netflix communication error persisted until this morning's reboot.



pdhenry said:


> AFAIK there was a Netflix/TiVo outage last night on their end - it seems that lots of people were affected, including inability to reboot during the outage.
> 
> I just finished watching a Netflix movie on my TiVo HD so it appears that things are mostly back...


This makes me feel a lot better. Thanks for posting it. I feel better knowing that it is a centralized and widespread problem (which seems to be less likely to happen again), and not just something with my local network (which would seem more likely to happen again). I'll continue using it with my fingers crossed, but upon the second strike, Netflix is otta here.


----------



## berkshires

mikeyts said:


> I don't know how this plays out if you have hundreds of items in your queue. It might not be able to cache all of the necessary information. There really ought to be a way of arranging the queue into folders (other than the folders for TV seasons and miniseries).


150+ items. "Instantaneous" paging. Across 4 TiVos in 2 separate homes. TWC (7+mb) in Berskhire Co. MA; Verizon DSL (1.5mb) in Bronx, NY


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## jgantert

I can confirm that it is working again today for me as well. Looks like it is faster as well (175+ items in my queue). Maybe they did some work on the Tivo server farm last night?


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## jpagan

Update: Seems like Netflix is working fine again. TiVo did not lock up and it is recording programs as usual.


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## stevec5375

I too have been experiencing the lockup issue. I had to reboot my Series 3 twice last night and finally gave up for fear I'd spend my whole evening rebooting and mess up my TiVo.

The debacle of software. Companies that produce software are notorioius for shipping products before they reach readiness. I should know. I've worked in the industry for 20+ years. There is this hurry-up-and-ship-it-before-our-competitors-do mentality. Even though development and quality assurance are usually pushing back, management, in their infinite stupidity, always says "ship it" anyway. And you (and me) the unsuspecting public become the beta testers. IMHO, the ill will that is generated over bad software inflicted on people cost companies a lot more money than they care to admit. If people would stop putting up with it, then things would change.

Go to Amazon.com and take a look at the TurboTax boondoogle for a perfect example of the power of the consumer. Just search for TurboTax and read the customer reviews and you'll see what I mean.

The reason you don't see more of this in hardware is because it is MUCH more costly and difficult to fix broken firmware once it gets onto the hardware. In some cases it's literally "burned" into silicon. Because companies like TiVo can just download a fix over a network, they think it gives them a lease on shipping flawed software.


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## fishboy

Just thought I'd update you guys on my status since last night in hopes that it will help others in the same or similar situation.

Summary: Around 10pm EST last night, while watching a movie, my TivoHD locked up (still screen, non responsive to any buttons). I unplugged the Tivo to reboot. Got stuck on "Almost there..." screen for 10-15 minutes. Unplugged it again, got stuck in same place again for another 20 minutes. Unplugged it a 3rd time... this time it got past the Almost there... screen to the blank screen just before the Tivo video plays to welcome you to Tivo. However the video never played, so I tried the Tivo button and that brought up the main menu screen. However, there was still no background and the Now Playing list was empty, the Live TV showed nothing. But I was able to get to the "Restart" screen and did a soft restart from there. It took another 10-15 minutes, but did finally come up as normal and everything was back to "pre-Netflix" Tivo. 

I felt adventurous and tried to go back into Netflix, but when I selected "VOD" from the main screen, I got a strange message saying I needed to "Connect to Tivo Service" first and download any updates. So I did that through "Phone & Network", it downloaded a fairly large file, installed the large file in about 20 minutes. When completed installing it, I tried the VOD service again, it worked. Tried the NetFlix service again, it worked. Selected the same movie I was watching again, and it said "Resume Movie" and when selected it resumed from about 30 seconds before where it locked up on us. So, I continued to watch the movie to the end with no problems. Since then, so far so good. I tried Tivo, Amazon, and everything thing seems to be back to normal.

Best I can tell is that initially, Tivo tried to reboot to the same config as when it crashed, then after a reboot or two, went back to a previous config, and eventually to the config before NetFlix code was loaded (even though the menu was there). When I loaded the software again as it suggested, the download took ~2 secs, but the install took 20 mins. I remember downloading this software once before (or one similar to it) so I would assume that Tivo is smart enough to realize it was already on the harddrive and then re-loaded the software update. Just a SWAG at best, but makes sense in my simple brain. 

Anyone else have similar results?


----------



## PetalumaDVR

I've gone from WiFi back to hard wired Ethernet and still get regular system freezes when trying to play back NetFlix content. Gray screen, unresponsive system, no content. This happens one out of every 3 or 4 attempts to play NetFlix content. Freezes require rebooting the Series 3 which takes 5 to 10 minutes. Now the system seems to be showing other slowdowns with non-NetFlix VOD content. I'm very disappointed that TiVo and NetFlix have rolled out this feature with great fanfare with the system so far from a reliable build. I don't know what I should do save for waiting for TiVo to release a software upgrade.


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## alansh

[thread=416621]Someone has said[/thread] they've received 11.0b.A5-01-2-652, which looks like a test release.


----------



## TiVoStephen

Folks,

Very sorry to hear about all the issues. We confirmed with the Netflix operations team that they experienced an outage Saturday evening that was the result of an overload with one of their hosting services, combined with what they termed a systems issue on their side. There appears to be have been some less widespread difficulties with the same hosting service on Friday night as well.

Per my contacts at Netflix, the problems ended at 8:45pm Pacific time last night. You shouldn't be seeing any issues since that time. My Netflix contacts have also told me that they've made sure the hosting service that was affected has expanded their infrastructure, so I'm told we shouldn't see any similar problems moving forward.

This outage affected all Netflix platforms (not just TiVo DVRs, but PCs, etc., as well). Unfortunately, this outage had the nasty side effect of causing the freeze issue for TiVo users that was described by me on page 1 of this thread, and in addition, upon reboot, even if you did have a working network, it appeared that TiVo units weren't able to boot successfully until they were able to contact Netflix's servers. So any reboots during the time of the outage may not have been successful.

We do recognize that that's a very unfortunate user experience, and we regret the inconvenience. We're hard at work at isolating this issue and creating a fix, although I don't have an ETA at this time. Our engineers are at work even this weekend, studying logs related to the freezes and testing different possible fixes.

If you're still having trouble with your unit booting, please contact TiVo support at 1-877-367-8486. You can tell the support agent that the "kickstart 2" procedure should help. They can guide you through this procedure.

We apologize again for the inconvenience. I'll keep updating you with the status of these Netflix issues.

Best regards,
Stephen


----------



## shamilian

pdhenry said:


> AFAIK there was a Netflix/TiVo outage last night on their end - it seems that lots of people were affected, including inability to reboot during the outage.
> 
> I just finished watching a Netflix movie on my TiVo HD so it appears that things are mostly back...


Are you saying that the Tivo will not boot without contacting
Tivo.com/Netflix.com ? That has got to be wrong. In the FAQ I think Tivo instructs you to disconnect all ethernet/USB if you have problems booting.


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## shamilian

szurlo said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if the long delay some are seeing before they can do a successful reboot is somehow related to the other issue TivoStephen mentioned in the first post where Netflix can get confused and think you are still streaming when you aren't. Perhaps when the Tivo boots, it is somehow being stalled if it and/or Netflix still thinks their is a stream active. TivoStephen said it can take up to 24 hours to clear a "hung" stream. That would explain why some people can boot after waiting several hours/overnight.


I tried to follow the FAQ after not being able to reboot for an hour. I disconnected the ethernet, so no stream going to Tivo. This did not help at all.


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## alansh

The issue is that it shouldn't have to make a network connection, but due to a fault in the code it does. So the workaround is to make sure the network is working when booting.


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## pdhenry

shamilian said:


> Are you saying that the Tivo will not boot without contacting
> Tivo.com/Netflix.com ? That has got to be wrong.


Read Post #1 in this thread.

If your TiVo crashes while watching Netflix, it must contact Netflix during the boot process and you cannot boot until there is a working network connection between your TiVo and Netflix.

Previously people have had problems when their network went down while watching Netflix - you can't reboot until your netwrk is restored. Last night we learned that if Netflix servers go down while you're watching netflix you can't reboot until Netflix goes back online.

If you're not watching Netflix before the reboot you won't need to contact Netflix during the reboot.


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## shamilian

TiVoStephen said:


> Folks,
> 
> Very sorry to hear about all the issues.
> 
> This outage affected all Netflix platforms (not just TiVo DVRs, but PCs, etc., as well). Unfortunately, this outage had the nasty side effect of causing the freeze issue for TiVo users that was described by me on page 1 of this thread, and in addition, upon reboot, even if you did have a working network, it appeared that TiVo units weren't able to boot successfully until they were able to contact Netflix's servers. So any reboots during the time of the outage may not have been successful.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


Who is responsible for creating a system that can not boot until it communicates with the Netflix Server ? Whoever came up with this architecture should be shot. Tivo needs to take dependencies like this out of the system.


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## fred2

shamilian said:


> Who is responsible for creating a system that can not boot until it communicates with the Netflix Server ? Whoever came up with this architecture should be shot. Tivo needs to take dependencies like this out of the system.


How about an all expenses paid trip to go hunting with the soon to be former vice president.


----------



## shamilian

pdhenry said:


> Read Post #1 in this thread.
> 
> If your TiVo crashes while watching Netflix, it must contact Netflix during the boot process and you cannot boot until there is a working network connection between your TiVo and Netflix.
> 
> Previously people have had problems when their network went down while watching Netflix - you can't reboot until your netwrk is restored. Last night we learned that if Netflix servers go down while you're watching netflix you can't reboot until Netflix goes back online.
> 
> If you're not watching Netflix before the reboot you won't need to contact Netflix during the reboot.


I reread the post and it talked about network issues ( my network / the ISP ), I guess we need to somehow understand the state of the Netflix network and servers as well.

I guess my complaint is that the system requires contact to the Netflix server to boot. Just not a good or robust system design. There is no reason to not boot just because it can't contact Netflix server.

So Tivo has known about this issue for a while now but has not released a patch.

Tivo should also change their FAQ:

My DVR is stuck on Welcome or Almost There
our DVR displays the following messages during startup:

Welcome...Powering Up
Almost there...a few minutes more

If either one of these messages continues to display for more than 5 minutes:

1. Unplug the power cord from the back of your DVR, disconnect the USB network adapter, Ethernet cable, or phone cord. If a DVR Expander is attached to the DVR, unplug it. 
2. Wait 15 seconds. Reconnect the power cord on you DVR Expander (if applicable), then on your DVR.
3. Once you see the 'Welcome...Powering Up' screen, wait 5 minutes for the startup process to continue.
4. You should soon see the 'Almost there...a few minutes more' screen. Wait for at least 5 minutes for the startup process to continue.
5. Once you see the TiVo Central screen, reconnect your USB network adapter, Ethernet cable, or phone cord.


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## jpagan

shamilian said:


> Who is responsible for creating a system that can not boot until it communicates with the Netflix Server ? Whoever came up with this architecture should be shot. Tivo needs to take dependencies like this out of the system.


Can we take turns at shooting this person? This is simply not acceptable. You are telling me that if a third party system crashes, then my tivo will crash too. Not only that, but after it crashes, I can not use my tivo until the third party system is back on line. C'mon TiVo, you know better than this. Seriously, who came up with that fdup arquitecture?


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## TroyB

My problems don't seem as`serious as others, atleast my TiVo hasn't rebooted as of yet.
My problems are watching a movie and half way into watching it will just stop playing and return to regular cable tv. The most annoying issue is while trying to watch something from Netflix the "retrieving data" comes on then the movie will play for 30 seconds or so, then the "retrieving data" comes up, the movie skips a couple minutes starts playing again and just continues doing this over, and over.
This doesn't happen all the time sometimes it will play fine.

This has to be a Tivo issue, because if you view something from Netflix on your PC or Xbox it is perfect, it is only Tivo there are problems.

Netflix on Tivo is a great feature, but after spending $1500 on 2 S3 Tivos, fighting with Time Warner about the 50 channels I don't recieve because of SDV and copy flags, Tivo's refusal to program support for M-Card cable cards for my S3, and now the netflix issues is getting irritating. The Dish Network DVR with built in Slingplayer showed at Consumer Electronics show this year is looking attractive.


----------



## 4wheeljive

fishboy said:


> I felt adventurous and tried to go back into Netflix, but when I selected "VOD" from the main screen, I got a strange message saying I needed to "Connect to Tivo Service" first and download any updates. So I did that through "Phone & Network", it downloaded a fairly large file, installed the large file in about 20 minutes. When completed installing it, I tried the VOD service again, it worked. Tried the NetFlix service again, it worked. Selected the same movie I was watching again, and it said "Resume Movie" and when selected it resumed from about 30 seconds before where it locked up on us. So, I continued to watch the movie to the end with no problems. Since then, so far so good. I tried Tivo, Amazon, and everything thing seems to be back to normal.


Unfortunately the call back home to TiVo doesn't seem to provide any lasting fix. I've had to go through the required "Connect to Tivo Service" about 3 or 4 times following reboots following Netflix freezes. As far as I can tell, it doesn't fix anything at all...it's just an additional annoying part of this experience.


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## Dr_Diablo

Joined the service yesterday, an still have not received any of the movies picked during the two week free trial

Am I to assume that the movies are DL to the Tivo or are they sent via mail per the option from the beginning of this mail order service?


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## oViTynoT

Yeah, let's just go on a "Shoot the Engineer" spree... That's productive...

My guess: It's a copyright enforcement mechanism. TivoStephen has already indicated that TiVo agrees it shouldn't behave like this. Ok, they found a bug that didn't reveal itself during initial testing. Perhaps the NetFlix infrastructure never died in the same way during testing. 

Having worked in IT for 20 years, I can tell you that there are always unforeseen bugs. And if we had to wait until "EVERY" bug is fixed before code is released, well, you'd never get anywhere.

I understand your frustration. This bug hit me Saturday Night, and I was afraid my system was dead because I tried for two hours to reboot with no success. I was about to divorce my external 1TB to see if that helped when it all the sudden came back up.

So, yes, TiVo could stand to document this on their knowledge base, but let's not be threatening the software developers... Please?


----------



## bicker

Good point. I think both sides need to reflect on this situation with more balance. Customers do have to, as Tony indicated, acknowledge that purchasing any high-tech service involves a shared risk: The service may not perform as you expect it to. The maximum remedy any customer should ever come to expect is a refund of the service fee for the period after the failure caused the service to no longer be delivered. In the case where a service causes a product to fail irrevocably, then the maximum remedy any customer should ever come to expect is a comparable replacement, if practicable. That's the way our consumer economy works.

And TiVo needs to understand the impact of this lack of robustness. Between CableCARDs, tuner sensitivity (esp. with FiOS), and Netflix, we have three examples where TiVo's fail technically with alarming frequency, as compared to comparable competitive services (i.e., cable company STBs with CableCARD). Folks here know that I'm often found defending TiVo's business decisions (i.e., in the face of consumerist ranting and raving that ignores the reality of the mass-market) -- it is saying something when there are issues for which I cannot formulate a single, respectable defense.


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## slowbiscuit

From this network/comms developer's viewpoint, sure looks like a classic case of not testing all the exception handling parts of the code. Been there, seen this before plenty of times.


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## moyekj

TiVoStephen, thanks for the honest update. I'm sure you knew flames would be flying following your post but it's refreshing to know the real truth for a change rather than just rampant speculation.
For those suffering from or fearing side effects of this problem put away your guns and as has been stated before just stay away from this service for now until a software update comes along with a fix.


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## proudx

moyekj said:


> TiVoStephen, thanks for the honest update. I'm sure you knew flames would be flying following your post but it's refreshing to know the real truth for a change rather than just rampant speculation.
> For those suffering from or fearing side effects of this problem put away your guns and as has been stated before just stay away from this service for now until a software update comes along with a fix.


yes the truth is what I would like to see from Tivo and this goes back to please provide release notes on software fixes and changes when you release a new service update. This will keep many of us from pulling out our hair trying to figure out if the software updae caused our problem or its our unit goijng bad.


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## RoyK

slowbiscuit said:


> From this network/comms developer's viewpoint, sure looks like a classic case of not testing all the exception handling parts of the code. Been there, seen this before plenty of times.


Looks more like not HAVING exception handling code. Absolutely unforgivable.


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## Jack D

caspian31 said:


> I have the same problem with my S3. I have tried HDMI and Component and many different outputs but the most I have seen is like one frame of video before the tivo reboots itself. Guess I will stick with streaming from my laptop even though it isnt in HD.


Judging from the posts in this thread, I guess I'm lucky that my Tivo rebooted correctly and didn't freeze. All I did was waste a lot of time waiting for the reboot and with tech support at NF and Tivo.

I'm not that desperate for this service. It's pretty clear that this is a beta. I don't want to go near it again until they get it working correctly. It's a nice idea but what were they thinking when they put this out before it was ready for prime time?


----------



## Larry in TN

Dr_Diablo said:


> Joined the service yesterday, an still have not received any of the movies picked during the two week free trial
> 
> Am I to assume that the movies are DL to the Tivo or are they sent via mail per the option from the beginning of this mail order service?


Go to http://netflix.com/queue (log in if necessary)

They will mail the top DVDs from your Queue -- The "DVD" tab. One if you're on the 1-out plan, Two if you're on the 2-out plan, etc.

The movies in your Instant Queue -- the "Instant" tab -- will be available immediately through TiVo. They stream, they don't download. Go to "Video On Demand" > "Netflix" > "Watch Instantly" to view them.


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## ffujita

I don't read these forums all the time, just when something goes wrong -- sorry. Is there a list that I can sign up on that will inform me when the Netflix streaming on Tivo is ready for prime-time? I've got a Roku box, and it's pretty close to rock solid (as long as my ISP cooperates) but the TiVo has about a 25% chance of playing, 25% chance of locking my box up (but it's always been able to reboot), and a 50% chance of not being able to play the media. When it gets to 85%, < 1%, and <15%, I'll be ready to try it again, but right now it's more frustrating than entertaining.


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## krgoldman

I have seen several threads on this in general, but none related to Netflix and streaming video. I have generally had good luck with Netflix on my TiVo (just plowed through almost 3 seasons of Heroes) but I noticed that I had problems if I used a computer or my iPod touch wirelessly at the same time. I am now thinking of hardwiring my TiVo to my network to get around these problems and generally speed up all the network related features. The question is, is it worth it? Does anyone have any feel what the impact of the increase in speed from being wired will be? Is it significant and noticeable? Will I get away from those long pauses while content is loaded and the occasional blank screen? Thanx.


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## morac

RoyK said:


> Looks more like not HAVING exception handling code. Absolutely unforgivable.


I highly doubt it's something that simple. Most likely it's a problem with the hardware or drivers that they are trying to work around.

TiVo does all it's video decoding in hardware (i.e., not in the CPU). If you feed null data to the decoders (which is basically what happens when the stream runs out), and the hardware decoders or their drivers aren't designed to handle that, then the results will be unpredictable. All the exception handling code in the world won't help you if your hardware locks up.

Someone suggested trying to detect glitches in the stream data and prevent that data from being decoded, thereby preventing problems in the first place. I could be wrong, but based on my understanding on how the TiVo works, I don't think that could be done. Since the video is decoded in hardware, I wouldn't think there would be a chance to check for glitches until after it was already decoded. At that point it's already too late.

That said, it should be very easy to check for the buffer emptying out because of a lost connection to the Netflix servers. Just code the Netflix application to halt playback, throw up an error and take you back to the main Netflix application screen before the buffer completely empties.


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## pdhenry

What I don't understand is how the TiVo is placed into a state during Netflix playback that persists over a reboot and fails if a connection to the server can't be established on subsequent power up.


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## JimPa

moyekj said:


> TiVoStephen, thanks for the honest update. I'm sure you knew flames would be flying following your post but it's refreshing to know the real truth for a change rather than just rampant speculation.
> For those suffering from or fearing side effects of this problem put away your guns and as has been stated before just stay away from this service for now until a software update comes along with a fix.


Good post moyekj.

What I thought was interesting is that many were eager to try it out even with all the problems being reported. Generally, you wait till the problems subside before trying a new product.


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## Czachorski

bicker said:


> Good point. I think both sides need to reflect on this situation with more balance. Customers do have to, as Tony indicated, acknowledge that purchasing any high-tech service involves a shared risk: The service may not perform as you expect it to. The maximum remedy any customer should ever come to expect is a refund of the service fee for the period after the failure caused the service to no longer be delivered.


Having a box like the Tivo that is our only portal to TV watching go down and fail to reboot until it can communicate with a 3rd party server like Netflix is absolutely unforgivable and not a risk that I am willing to share.

My remedy is simple: I will not be extending my trial subscription from Netflix into a real subscription if I feel that this is a real risk. I will warn everyone that I know with a Tivo of this risk and offer my friendly advice to avoid it. I highly doubt that many people will happily accept the shared risk as you have described. Tivo and Netflix are welcome to assume that people will share the risk, but I think they will be sadly mistaken if they make such a bet - it would be a sign that they don't really understand how people use and rely upon these boxes.


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## bicker

Sounds good to me. The consumers' option is always to _do without_, if they're unhappy with the value proposition that an offering affords them.


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## Lazlo Nibble

ched said:


> I *think* the slow queue pages may be fixed for me now. A few days ago I rebooted Tivo (again) and removed pyTivo and Audio Faucet apps from my desktop computer. So I am not sure which of these may have solved it, but since doing this my initial page takes 3-4 seconds to load, and scrolling through instant queue pages is plenty fast.


I run pyTiVo as well, but it seems unlikely to me that the two are related. As far as I can tell the TiVo doesn't establish any connections to my PC when I navigate the Netflix interface. This is true even the first time I hit Netflix after rebooting the TiVo, which appears to clear the cached data for the Netflix UI.

I went ahead and actually measured the load times for the Netflix pages. (We have 35 items in our Instant Queue, though a dozen or so are series sets so the total number of items is well over 100.) After pressing Watch Instantly it takes ~1:05 to load and paint the first screen, forty seconds each to page down to the second and third screens, and around thirty seconds to page down to the fourth. They're obviously cached after that because it moves along nice and quick afterward, even after blowing back out to the main menu and re-entering. No idea how long it takes for each element to expire out of the cache.

That leaves the network connection itself. It's DSL, so it's not the biggest pipe on earth, but if the connection is fast enough to stream video it's probably not the raw volume of data being downloaded that's the problem. I do occasionally see the cover shots pop in after the page paints, so the logical thing to check next would be whether or not each connection attempt to the Netflix servers is taking longer than it should. It's hard to be sure without seeing the actual requests come off the box, and I can't easily do that with my current setup.

(Oh yeah -- it's a wired connection.)


----------



## szwjunk

szwjunk said:


> Add me to the list.
> 
> Yippee! Great news! *The drive is now completely dead!!* (a Seagate 1Tb)
> 
> New WD ordered from Newegg, and the old one booked for warranty return to Seagate (it was only 7 months old). I have the Instantcake lash-up to build myself a new drive, but unfortunately I still need Charter to come out to "re-pair" the cable cards. This is my 2nd drive to die in this S3. Did the Netflix thing cause it? Who knows. But it will be a long time before I stream anything again...


Well, now, I think I have another explanation for why my drive died - and although I feel that it could have been _related _to the Netflix issue, there does seem to be a very serious problem with the firmware in the Seagate 1Tb drive I was using - this thread refers to it, and it's actually posted all over the web right now .

The problem with this drive (and a boatload of others from Seagate) seems to be that after a certain number of power-on cycles, a firmware bug causes the drive to to die, or at least to play dead, which amounts to the same thing. If this is true (my research suggests that it is), then given that I had been hard-booting my TiVo a number of times because of the Netflix freezing problem, it is entirely possible that the drive hit the "magic" number of power recycles which triggered the drive death.

If this is true, then while the Netflix problem may have _induced_ the drive's death by forcing multiple hard reboots, it is clear that in this scenario the death would not actually have been caused by a system corruption in (or caused by) the Netflix software itself...

I wonder whether anyone else on this thread whose drive actually died after Netflix freezes and reboots was also running one of the Seagate drives whose firmware is under suspicion? Here's a link to the knowledge base article on this subject at Seagate's site.


----------



## Dr_Diablo

Larry in TN said:


> Go to http://netflix.com/queue (log in if necessary)
> 
> They will mail the top DVDs from your Queue -- The "DVD" tab. One if you're on the 1-out plan, Two if you're on the 2-out plan, etc.
> 
> The movies in your Instant Queue -- the "Instant" tab -- will be available immediately through TiVo. They stream, they don't download. Go to "Video On Demand" > "Netflix" > "Watch Instantly" to view them.


Thanks for the heads up on this matter...

Freakin Netflix charged my CC three times for a buck each time, this is a rip for a service I thought would DL selected movies directly to your HD


----------



## bicker

What made you think that the movies would be downloaded instead of streamed?


----------



## szurlo

Dr_Diablo said:


> this is a rip for a service


Even in spite of the currently anemic selection of streamable content, being able to watch all you want basically "on demand" for as little as $9 per month would be seen by most as a pretty good value. Even if you don't use the streaming, you could easily watch 6 or 7 DVDs a month via snail mail (I think they have 3 day turn-around in many areas now via snail-mail). So basically you get as many DVDs as can be delivered to you via snail-snail in a month plus as much streamed content as you have time to watch, for as little as $9 total. Tough to find a way to consider that a rip-off.


----------



## dig_duggler

bicker said:


> Good point. I think both sides need to reflect on this situation with more balance. Customers do have to, as Tony indicated, acknowledge that purchasing any high-tech service involves a shared risk: The service may not perform as you expect it to. The maximum remedy any customer should ever come to expect is a refund of the service fee for the period after the failure caused the service to no longer be delivered. In the case where a service causes a product to fail irrevocably, then the maximum remedy any customer should ever come to expect is a comparable replacement, if practicable. That's the way our consumer economy works.
> 
> And TiVo needs to understand the impact of this lack of robustness. Between CableCARDs, tuner sensitivity (esp. with FiOS), and Netflix, we have three examples where TiVo's fail technically with alarming frequency, as compared to comparable competitive services (i.e., cable company STBs with CableCARD). Folks here know that I'm often found defending TiVo's business decisions (i.e., in the face of consumerist ranting and raving that ignores the reality of the mass-market) -- it is saying something when there are issues for which I cannot formulate a single, respectable defense.


I am speechless :0


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## bicker

"This is what I'm sayin'!"


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## Czachorski

bicker said:


> Sounds good to me. The consumers' option is always to _do without_, if they're unhappy with the value proposition that an offering affords them.


Well, I won't really be "doing without", now, will I. Netflix will - they will be without a customer. But I will seek other outlets for the services they offer. Perhaps one that does not cause my only portal to my TV - my Tivo unit - to crash and be unable to re-boot. 

I'm not going to abandoned them yet, though. I do consider the service to be quite compelling, as szurlo described above, so I am going to give them 2 strikes instead of one. I honestly hope it does not crash again, because the service appears promising, despite some of the UI annoyances. However, appeal of the service and my perceived value of it will go down dramatically if the service crashes and freezes my Tivo on a regular basis. It's a simple equation really, and one that I hope Tivo and Netflix understand and work to solve in their favor.


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## roby1

My 10 month old Tivo HD unit experienced the same "Stuck on Almost there screen /netflix issues". It happened this past Sunday night and after talking to the Tivo tech support on Monday without any resolution, my unit is on it's way on a UPS truck to Tivo RMA center today. At this point, it is unclear to me if I am paying for the refurbished unit they are supposed to be sending me once they get mine.

I wish I had found/joined this this community forum before today, so I could understand what the @@#$ was going on. I am really upset with the fact that Tivo support did not explain to me what may have happened. I could have tried router hard wiring and rebooting Tivo (as suggested in one of the threads here) or suggested to the Tivo folks about "Kickstart 2" before agreeing to return the unit for an exchange.

Man, it sucks sometime to be the early adopter of a technology, before all of the bugs are worked out. Tivo needs to acknowledge their Netflix implementation issues and should offer customers new units if they experienced this problem and if their units are still in warranty. It appears that there are a lot of complaints on this issue and Tivo is not officially acknowledging it.

___________



TiVoStephen said:


> Folks,
> 
> Very sorry to hear about all the issues. We confirmed with the Netflix operations team that they experienced an outage Saturday evening that was the result of an overload with one of their hosting services, combined with what they termed a systems issue on their side. There appears to be have been some less widespread difficulties with the same hosting service on Friday night as well.
> 
> Per my contacts at Netflix, the problems ended at 8:45pm Pacific time last night. You shouldn't be seeing any issues since that time. My Netflix contacts have also told me that they've made sure the hosting service that was affected has expanded their infrastructure, so I'm told we shouldn't see any similar problems moving forward.
> 
> This outage affected all Netflix platforms (not just TiVo DVRs, but PCs, etc., as well). Unfortunately, this outage had the nasty side effect of causing the freeze issue for TiVo users that was described by me on page 1 of this thread, and in addition, upon reboot, even if you did have a working network, it appeared that TiVo units weren't able to boot successfully until they were able to contact Netflix's servers. So any reboots during the time of the outage may not have been successful.
> 
> We do recognize that that's a very unfortunate user experience, and we regret the inconvenience. We're hard at work at isolating this issue and creating a fix, although I don't have an ETA at this time. Our engineers are at work even this weekend, studying logs related to the freezes and testing different possible fixes.
> 
> If you're still having trouble with your unit booting, please contact TiVo support at 1-877-367-8486. You can tell the support agent that the "kickstart 2" procedure should help. They can guide you through this procedure.
> 
> We apologize again for the inconvenience. I'll keep updating you with the status of these Netflix issues.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


----------



## slowbiscuit

Czachorski said:


> I'm not going to abandoned them yet, though. I do consider the service to be quite compelling, as szurlo described above, so I am going to give them 2 strikes instead of one.


Freezes aside (which I haven't seen yet), the service will be much more compelling when the available streaming content is greatly expanded. It's way too limited right now, but you can't beat the price.


----------



## jbelinski

Just wanted to add my dissatisfaction and frustration with the Netflix service. I've watched a couple of movies, and when it works it's wonderful. But, when it locks up my DVR--as it does about 75&#37; of the time--it s-u-c-k-s.

When I watch half a movie with my kids, and go back to watch the other half later--it becomes a huge PITA because I get the "Please Wait" of death as soon as we hit "Video on Demand." Then we reboot, reconnect, wait for it to load up to 100%...and that whole process takes 45 minutes!

In the meantime, I've switched to a DVD. There are a lot of good kids' movies on Netflix, but I am sick of dealing with it. It's one thing if I get the message "first connect to the TiVo service," but just locking up the DVR is inexcusable.

I'm cancelling Netflix before my next monthly payment is due. TiVo and Netflix, figure it out and let me know when you're done!

P.S. OMG, I finally reconnected and now it says I have to enable downloads at tivo.com! Hello, I did that months ago. Really, really annoying.


----------



## morac

jbelinski said:


> I'm cancelling Netflix before my next monthly payment is due. TiVo and Netflix, figure it out and let me know when you're done!


You can suspend your account instead. Netflix won't charge you while your account is suspended and it's easier to reactivate than canceling.


----------



## dhoney

this isn't a netflix issue as much as it is an issue with the software update that included the new netflix on tivo service. ever since i received the software update on dec 6 i believe, my cable cards stopped working. i have two series 3 tivos and one HD tivo. all 6 cable cards no longer work. i have charter communications in incline village, nv. i have since had charter install 6 new cable cards and still cant get them to work. 

i've had so many conversations with both tivo and charter that i've lost count.

both tivo and charter say it's something of a known issue and both blame the other (typical) but i haven't been able to find anything about it online.

i welcome all suggestions....

thanks,


----------



## mikeyts

dhoney said:


> this isn't a netflix issue as much as it is an issue with the software update that included the new netflix on tivo service. ever since i received the software update on dec 6 i believe, my cable cards stopped working. i have two series 3 tivos and one HD tivo. all 6 cable cards no longer work. i have charter communications in incline village, nv. i have since had charter install 6 new cable cards and still cant get them to work.
> 
> i've had so many conversations with both tivo and charter that i've lost count.
> 
> both tivo and charter say it's something of a known issue and both blame the other (typical) but i haven't been able to find anything about it online.
> 
> i welcome all suggestions....
> 
> thanks,


You should start a new thread for this. As you say, it's off-topic in this one.


----------



## JeffKusnitz

I signed up for Netflix around Christmas. For the first few days, Netflix on Tivo worked great - the "quality" showed all of the bars (or maybe all but one). I watched a bunch of movies, TV shows, etc.

Since then though, it's not been so great. I only get 5 or 6 bars, and I can't watch a complete show without half a dozen or more "Retrieving..." dialogs appearing (nothing has died ever though as others have reported, thankfully).

What's going on here? I have no trouble at all watching anything on my with my PC and Mac clients - the PC and Mac are using 802.11g; the Tivo is hardwired to the router through a pair of gigabit switches. The Netflix quality meter run on my Macbook says that the quality is "High" (three bars).

If I understood how things are working, my Tivo talks through the network to a Tivo server; and that Tivo server in turn is talking to Netflix, is that right? Is one of these servers the bottleneck, or possibly the connection between them?

My Tivo is a TivoHD running 11.0-01-2-652, it's got a 1TB Western Digital drive in it.

Thanks,
Jeff


----------



## moyekj

JeffKusnitz said:


> If I understood how things are working, my Tivo talks through the network to a Tivo server; and that Tivo server in turn is talking to Netflix, is that right? Is one of these servers the bottleneck, or possibly the connection between them?


 Once the video stream is started it's a direct connection between Netflix server and your Tivo (without going through Tivo server). However as you interact with the Netflix application that is running on the Tivo server. If you lose connection between Tivo server and your Tivo then you are kicked out of the application completely. If you lose connection between Netflix server and your Tivo then you are not kicked out of the application but you won't be able to stream any videos and certain graphics will be missing (since Tivo server grabs them from Netflix server).


----------



## erb2000

We've been using Netflix on a Series 3 for a month. Have watched all of Heros, Friday Night Lights, and Weeds. It's worked pretty well, but we have recently been experiencing lock-ups that require a hard reboot. These seem to happen on the menus, though, not during playing. Our network connection is fine. Has Tivo admitted to lock-up problems not related to network connections? They lock-ups are getting more frequent.


----------



## JeffKusnitz

moyekj said:


> Once the video stream is started it's a direct connection between Netflix server and your Tivo (without going through Tivo server). However as you interact with the Netflix application that is running on the Tivo server. If you lose connection between Tivo server and your Tivo then you are kicked out of the application completely. If you lose connection between Netflix server and your Tivo then you are not kicked out of the application but you won't be able to stream any videos and certain graphics will be missing (since Tivo server grabs them from Netflix server).


I don't think I've ever gotten kicked out completely, so I guess this is either a problem with Tivo's buffering of the video, or maybe the Netflix server. And since the PC/Mac both work fine, I guess it's the Tivo code..

Oh well..


----------



## jgantert

Now I'm getting Scheduled Maintenance when I try to go into my Netflix queue. Ugh, the reliability of the netflix servers on Tivo is horrible.


----------



## sieglinde

Why quit Netflix, their DVDs work just fine.

I haven't had the lock up problem but then after reading some horror stories, I will just be using the DVDs.


----------



## mikeyts

jgantert said:


> Now I'm getting Scheduled Maintenance when I try to go into my Netflix queue. Ugh, the reliability of the netflix servers on Tivo is horrible.


Jeez, guy--you're peeved because of a "down for scheduled maintenance" notice? That's _not_ a reliability issue--it's something that would be expected to _enhance_ reliabilty at the expense of a tiny bit of availability. Since you're the first to report this, it can hardly be something that happens often.


----------



## JeffKusnitz

mikeyts said:


> Jeez, guy--you're peeved because of a "down for scheduled maintenance" notice? That's _not_ a reliability issue--it's something that would be expected to _enhance_ reliabilty at the expense of a tiny bit of availability. Since you're the first to report this, it can hardly be something that happens often.


Scheduled maintenance at 10:43 in the morning? Who would schedule maintenance for the middle of the morning. Sounds fishy..


----------



## jgantert

Well, it came back up a little bit later.

Mikey, down for scheduled maintenance is their bogus message that means the server is down. Nobody does scheduled maintenance at 10:43am. 

Imagine going to your ATM, going thru all the menu's then when it gets ready to hand you the cash, a screen says "Sorry, down for scheduled maintenance". Poor implementation.

Just try to watch "Hot Times at Montclair High". Gives you some error about not being available.

And trust me, I have used netflix a TON this week (temporarily laid off, so I've had a ton of time to watch movies). 25 titles (including TV episodes) watched since 1/14.


----------



## jgantert

mikeyts said:


> Jeez, guy--you're peeved because of a "down for scheduled maintenance" notice? That's _not_ a reliability issue--it's something that would be expected to _enhance_ reliabilty at the expense of a tiny bit of availability. Since you're the first to report this, it can hardly be something that happens often.


Oh, and do you think Netflix servers will be up this Saturday evening? The last two Saturday evening's they have been down.


----------



## rdodolak

JeffKusnitz said:


> Scheduled maintenance at 10:43 in the morning? Who would schedule maintenance for the middle of the morning. Sounds fishy..


They've been down for maintenance since yesterday night. However, it looks like they're now back up.


----------



## JeffKusnitz

moyekj said:


> Once the video stream is started it's a direct connection between Netflix server and your Tivo (without going through Tivo server). However as you interact with the Netflix application that is running on the Tivo server. If you lose connection between Tivo server and your Tivo then you are kicked out of the application completely. If you lose connection between Netflix server and your Tivo then you are not kicked out of the application but you won't be able to stream any videos and certain graphics will be missing (since Tivo server grabs them from Netflix server).


What about the quality measurement changing from all/nearly all of the bars in late december to five or six of them now - did Tivo/Netflix change the way it's computed?


----------



## pdhenry

JeffKusnitz said:


> What about the quality measurement changing from all/nearly all of the bars in late december to five or six of them now - did Tivo/Netflix change the way it's computed?


Since Saturday I've watched a few episodes of *30 Rock* via Netflix and they've all come in as HD (full bars) and other programming full bars minus 1.


----------



## moyekj

JeffKusnitz said:


> What about the quality measurement changing from all/nearly all of the bars in late december to five or six of them now - did Tivo/Netflix change the way it's computed?


 I still get mostly either HD or 10/11 bars for all the content I've been streaming lately. I don't think I've ever seen 5/6 bars for anything that I have streamed. There are some shows encoded with low quality (and higher quality encodings are not available) which would show 5/6 bars but there must be very few of them as I haven't ran into any yet.


----------



## JeffKusnitz

moyekj said:


> I still get mostly either HD or 10/11 bars for all the content I've been streaming lately. I don't think I've ever seen 5/6 bars for anything that I have streamed. There are some shows encoded with low quality (and higher quality encodings are not available) which would show 5/6 bars but there must be very few of them as I haven't ran into any yet.


Is the quality indicator an indicator of my network connection or the quality of the movie? I've been watching The Office - season 4 most recently. That can't be right, as I also have the "Retrieving..." a bunch of times during a 40/20 minute show.


----------



## moyekj

JeffKusnitz said:


> Is the quality indicator an indicator of my network connection or the quality of the movie? I've been watching The Office - season 4 most recently. That can't be right, as I also have the "Retrieving..." a bunch of times during a 40/20 minute show.


 It indicates quality - less bars mean lower bit rate. If you are getting a bunch of "retrieving" messages during a single stream that indicates an issue with your broadband connection as your connection can't keep up with the bit rate so it tries to go to a lower bit rate encoding. As a comparison I've probably viewed in excess of 40 shows thus far with Tivo/Netflix and only seen those messages about 3 or 4 times (and never more than once in a show).


----------



## Dr_Diablo

szurlo said:


> Even in spite of the currently anemic selection of streamable content, being able to watch all you want basically "on demand" for as little as $9 per month would be seen by most as a pretty good value. Even if you don't use the streaming, you could easily watch 6 or 7 DVDs a month via snail mail (I think they have 3 day turn-around in many areas now via snail-mail). So basically you get as many DVDs as can be delivered to you via snail-snail in a month plus as much streamed content as you have time to watch, for as little as $9 total. Tough to find a way to consider that a rip-off.


Prefer to view movies on my 46 inch Sony set rather than a feakin computer monitor


----------



## JeffKusnitz

moyekj said:


> It indicates quality - less bars mean lower bit rate. If you are getting a bunch of "retrieving" messages during a single stream that indicates an issue with your broadband connection as your connection can't keep up with the bit rate so it tries to go to a lower bit rate encoding. As a comparison I've probably viewed in excess of 40 shows thus far with Tivo/Netflix and only seen those messages about 3 or 4 times (and never more than once in a show).


I can believe that, except that none of the computers in my house ever have this problem, and they're all attached to the same router and going out through the same cable modem. It doesn't seem reasonable that it's my Intetnet connection given that everything but Tivo has no problem streaming, does it?

What size buffer does Tivo use for streamed movies? There was about a 3 minute buffer on Windows (in Firefox).

Thanks


----------



## mikeyts

Dr_Diablo said:


> szurlo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even in spite of the currently anemic selection of streamable content, being able to watch all you want basically "on demand" for as little as $9 per month would be seen by most as a pretty good value. Even if you don't use the streaming, you could easily watch 6 or 7 DVDs a month via snail mail (I think they have 3 day turn-around in many areas now via snail-mail). So basically you get as many DVDs as can be delivered to you via snail-snail in a month plus as much streamed content as you have time to watch, for as little as $9 total. Tough to find a way to consider that a rip-off.
> 
> 
> 
> Prefer to view movies on my 46 inch Sony set rather than a feakin computer monitor
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I don't see where the response that you quoted said anything about watching movies on your computer. The new Netflix feature on TiVo is about streaming movies from Netflix with TiVo, not your computer--it doesn't require downloads.

Of course, you _can_ stream the same movies (and television programs) with your computer, and if you stop watching on TiVo and resume watching on the computer, it'll start up on the computer at the place where you stopped on TiVo.

I don't know what went on that Netflix charged your credit card three times for a dollar. You should call Netflix about that.


----------



## mikeyts

JeffKusnitz said:


> What size buffer does Tivo use for streamed movies? There was about a 3 minute buffer on Windows (in Firefox).


Who knows, but it doesn't seem to be any 3 minutes. If you do an 8-second skip back (which it can do, but no skip-to-tick or 30-second skip forward), it'll pause to fill the buffer again.


----------



## szurlo

JeffKusnitz said:


> Is the quality indicator an indicator of my network connection or the quality of the movie?


Well, it can really be both. It indicates which bit rate version of the content you are getting, which is selected based on what they determine to be your bandwidth AND by the number of available versions of the encode they have for that show. So a low number of bars can be one of two things: They don't have a high bit rate encode available for the show, or they do, but they don't feel your connection can handle it so they are streaming you a lower bit rate encode. Only way I know of to know, is to compare to other users. If you get less bars on the same show as someone else then you are being sent a lower bit rate version based on your connection performance.


----------



## szurlo

Dr_Diablo said:


> Prefer to view movies on my 46 inch Sony set rather than a feakin computer monitor


Sorry, but you lost me. Computer monitor? This thread is about watching NetFlix streams on the TV, not the computer.


----------



## tgibbs

About the only problem I've noticed with Netflix streaming is rare loss of audio, cured by stopping and restarting the stream.

Oddly enough, the other day I was watching Numb3rs (Season 5 #10) on Netflix, and found that I could not rewind or fast forward, although the skip-back still worked. The problem seems to be specific to this particular episode, since it persisted after stopping and restarting, while a different episode did not have this issue.


----------



## tom_maki

I signed up for Netflix around Christmas and was one of those that experienced the spontaneous reboot issue whenever I tried to watch anything on Netflix (I have a S3). I gave up after a couple of days of reboots without ever being able to view anything, but I kept the account in hopes that things might improve (and I have been using it some on my PC).

Last night I tried Netflix again from my S3 and it has been working without issue! Everything I tried has worked fine with the exception of poor audio sync with one movie. I don't know why it started working for me -- I checked the Tivo version and it is still at 11.0-01-2-648.

I just thought I would throw this out there in case there is anyone else that suffered from the reboot issue and has given up!


----------



## BarryD99

I've been using the service for a week. Probably have watched 5 movies. No bad problems except one movie the sound and picture were not in sync.

I think I understand the bars issue, but are HD programs listed as HD? I don't think I've seen any. I think I'm always getting all bars but one.


----------



## pdhenry

BarryD99 said:


> I think I understand the bars issue, but are HD programs listed as HD? I don't think I've seen any. I think I'm always getting all bars but one.


HD is one of the genres in the Watch Instantly section on Netflix, here: http://www.netflix.com/WiHD?lnkctr=hdgenre

No guarantee that you'll actually get full bars & HD. I think I've only seen that for 30 Rock episodes.


----------



## TroyB

pdhenry said:


> No guarantee that you'll actually get full bars & HD. I think I've only seen that for 30 Rock episodes.


I have watched a lot of stuff and like you the only thing I had show the full signal including HD is when I watched 30 Rock episodes.


----------



## JeffKusnitz

TroyB said:


> I have watched a lot of stuff and like you the only thing I had show the full signal including HD is when I watched 30 Rock episodes.


I tried the 30 Rock pilot this evening - it was also 5/6 bars. So now I'm left wondering why my Tivo thinks its network connection is so crappy. Any ideas?


----------



## moyekj

JeffKusnitz said:


> I tried the 30 Rock pilot this evening - it was also 5/6 bars. So now I'm left wondering why my Tivo thinks its network connection is so crappy. Any ideas?


 How is your Tivo connected to your network? What kind of speeds do you get for TTG transfers and YouTube transfers? For TTG & YouTube transfer speeds you can read transfer rates from Network Diagnostics page:
Tivo Central->Messages&Settings->Settings->Phone&Network->View network diagnostics->Transfer history
1 & 2 are for TTCB & TTG, 6 is for YouTube


----------



## pdhenry

JeffKusnitz said:


> I tried the 30 Rock pilot this evening - it was also 5/6 bars. So now I'm left wondering why my Tivo thinks its network connection is so crappy. Any ideas?


FWIW, I couldn't even watch 30 Rock Sunday nght- I got a network error on the TiVo and got pauses when I tried to watch on the PC instead.


----------



## JeffKusnitz

moyekj said:


> How is your Tivo connected to your network? What kind of speeds do you get for TTG transfers and YouTube transfers? For TTG & YouTube transfer speeds you can read transfer rates from Network Diagnostics page:
> Tivo Central->Messages&Settings->Settings->Phone&Network->View network diagnostics->Transfer history
> 1 & 2 are for TTCB & TTG, 6 is for YouTube


I checked out the numbers, all said "none" as I hadn't watched anything on Youtube, nor transfered files, etc. So I watched a youtube video. It was just as bad as watching netflix in terms of pausing because of buffering problems.

And when I did that, Tivo reported 0.18Mb/s.

My Tivo is hardwired to my cable modem through a pair of linksys gigabit switches and a linksys router. I pulled the wire out of the back of the tivo and plugged it into my laptop and tried speakeasy.net's bandwidth meter; it was around 400Kb/s (1Mb/s upload though).

I then tried it with the same laptop, using wireless, and saw 12Mb/s download and 1Mb/s upload, so something in the pipeline between the Tivo and my router is apparently bad.

Sigh.. Thanks for patience (apologies Tivo, for thinking this was your problem rather than mine


----------



## moyekj

JeffKusnitz said:


> I checked out the numbers, all said "none" as I hadn't watched anything on Youtube, nor transfered files, etc. So I watched a youtube video. It was just as bad as watching netflix in terms of pausing because of buffering problems.
> 
> And when I did that, Tivo reported 0.18Mb/s.
> 
> My Tivo is hardwired to my cable modem through a pair of linksys gigabit switches and a linksys router. I pulled the wire out of the back of the tivo and plugged it into my laptop and tried speakeasy.net's bandwidth meter; it was around 400Kb/s (1Mb/s upload though).
> 
> I then tried it with the same laptop, using wireless, and saw 12Mb/s download and 1Mb/s upload, so something in the pipeline between the Tivo and my router is apparently bad.
> 
> Sigh.. Thanks for patience (apologies Tivo, for thinking this was your problem rather than mine


 Bingo. It would be useful if Tivo added a network test option as part of Tivo/Netflix interface to help diagnose problems such as these more easily.


----------



## JeffKusnitz

moyekj said:


> Bingo. It would be useful if Tivo added a network test option as part of Tivo/Netflix interface to help diagnose problems such as these more easily.


I second that idea - I replaced the Linksys Gigabit swith with the 100Mb/s one that it had replaced a couple of years ago and magically I get 11 bars and HD shows. Some sort of network connectivity app, akin to dslreports.com or speakeasy.net would be wonderful for troubleshooting.

Thanks again
Jeff


----------



## JeffKusnitz

So, of course, I sit down to watch the first episode in HD in slightly over a month and what happens - my cable network (Internet) connection goes down and Tivo stops streaming and hangs for 15 minutes while I reboot the modem and such, and then another 10 minutes while it restarts itself..

I think I need an activity button programmed on my Harmony remote to "restart my home network (including/excluding Tivo)" now..

Jeff


----------



## bakerja

I got a message last night that video on demand was down for scheduled maintenance. Maybe this will fix some of the problems.


----------



## yunlin12

JeffKusnitz said:


> So, of course, I sit down to watch the first episode in HD in slightly over a month and what happens - my cable network (Internet) connection goes down and Tivo stops streaming and hangs for 15 minutes while I reboot the modem and such, and then another 10 minutes while it restarts itself..
> 
> I think I need an activity button programmed on my Harmony remote to "restart my home network (including/excluding Tivo)" now..
> 
> Jeff


just put everything on the same power strip, and flip the switch.


----------



## georgemoe

Just got a Tivo HD yesterday and Netflix froze about 15 minutes ago during a Heroes S3 episode. Rebooted and all appears to be fine. I also had a Netflix problem a couple weekends ago with my Samsung BD-P2550. I wonder if anyone else is having freezing problems with Netflix tonight?


----------



## eric_n_dfw

georgemoe said:


> Just got a Tivo HD yesterday and Netflix froze about 15 minutes ago during a Heroes S3 episode. Rebooted and all appears to be fine. I also had a Netflix problem a couple weekends ago with my Samsung BD-P2550. I wonder if anyone else is having freezing problems with Netflix tonight?


My Netflix stuff has been working great, but tonight I also have had two lockups in a row and a bunch of "Netflix service is down" errors while navigating in the "Watch Intstantly" queue.


----------



## moyekj

I was going to report this stream to Netflix as problematic:
MI-5, volume 3, episode 1: Project Friendly Fire

On both my S3s the above plays in fast motion and skips around a lot - so the S3 decoder can't handle it properly at all right from the start.
However, I am able to watch that entire episode without any issues at all on an HDXL unit.

So clearly this is a bug with the S3 decoder (which I understand is different than the HDXL decoder).


----------



## thomaslue

I get choppy playback and interruptions within 5 minutes of starting a Netflix movie on my S3.


----------



## Czachorski

eric_n_dfw said:


> My Netflix stuff has been working great, but tonight I also have had two lockups in a row and a bunch of "Netflix service is down" errors while navigating in the "Watch Intstantly" queue.


Dog gone it! Although this didn't happen to me, hearing that the issues are still widespread is really disappointing. I guess Netflix/Tivo didn't learn anything from the 12 hour network drop a couple weeks ago.

Here's a lesson I've learned in 15 years of business that Tivo/Netflix better figure out real fast: once a customer has a negative experience and leaves, it is very, very, very hard to ever get them back.


----------



## mikeyts

thomaslue said:


> I get choppy playback and interruptions within 5 minutes of starting a Netflix movie on my S3.


The only titles I've seen play choppy on my S3 have played pretty much the same on my PC.


----------



## 84lion

We recently got a Tivo HD XL and I have started using the Netflix streaming. I noticed that the first season of Star Trek (TOS) was available for streaming so I put it in the queue. I had also streamed a couple of episodes of Battlestar Galactica (original series in SD) and some SD stuff for the kids and this appeared fine on the 4X3 SD sets. However, the Star Trek TOS episodes are in HD and despite being 4X3 they are presented "squished" horizontally (anamorphic) on the 4X3 sets. (The 4X3 includes black bars at left and right sides.) I set the Tivo to specify 4X3 and even 480i output, everything I could think of to make it think "Standard Def" but I still get anamorphic. Anyone have any ideas how to make the Tivo specify non-anamorphic output on HD? I am experiencing the anamorphic output on both the composite and S-VHS outputs. The 4X3 SD sets are older (Sony XBRs) and don't have capability to "stretch" anamorphic video.


----------



## wmcbrine

Once you've set the TV Aspect Ratio to 4:3, then select "Zoom" mode via the "Aspect" button.


----------



## mikeyts

moyekj said:


> I was going to report this stream to Netflix as problematic:
> MI-5, volume 3, episode 1: Project Friendly Fire
> 
> On both my S3s the above plays in fast motion and skips around a lot - so the S3 decoder can't handle it properly at all right from the start.
> However, I am able to watch that entire episode without any issues at all on an HDXL unit.
> 
> So clearly this is a bug with the S3 decoder (which I understand is different than the HDXL decoder).


I tried that episodes and it's curious. Unlike most of the ones which stutter on my S3 _and_ in the PC Silverlight player, that one will play on the PC, but there's something strange about it. On some attempts to play it on the PC, it pretty much won't start--if I back out and try again a few times, it eventually will.

Personally, I wouldn't attribute the problem to the S3's decoder chips, though some bug in its driver might be contributory. It doesn't just stutter--it keeps stopping and rebuffering.

(BTW, I'd watched a slew of British television on Netflix streaming, and I tried to watch _MI-5_, but I can't manage it without captions. The accents of some of the main characters are too strong for me to follow their dialog).


----------



## moyekj

mikeyts said:


> Personally, I wouldn't attribute the problem to the S3's decoder chips, though some bug in its driver might be contributory. It doesn't just stutter--it keeps stopping and rebuffering.
> 
> (BTW, I'd watched a slew of British television on Netflix streaming, and I tried to watch _MI-5_, but I can't manage it without captions. The accents of some of the main characters are too strong for me to follow their dialog).


 Agree it could be a questionable encoding, but it does show that the THD/HDXL VC-1 decoders seem to be a little more robust. I haven't seen a post yet of the reverse case where something will decode fine with S3 but not THD/HDXL units.

Yes it would be nice to have captions. I tend to watch Netflix streams pretty late at night where turning up volume louder is not an option. Also since there is no buffering at all on the Tivo I hesitate to backup and watch a section again because of the delay/interruption of starting a new stream when doing so. The streambaby implementation of streaming to Tivos is so much nicer in that regard.
I'm now addicted to MI-5 though. Season 1 started a little shaky but episodes just get better and better starting mid way through Season 2 and in Season 3. Too bad the last couple of seasons aren't available for streaming - shall have to use snail mail for those.


----------



## berkshires

moyekj said:


> The streambaby implementation of streaming to Tivos is so much nicer in that regard.


What does streambaby do differnetly?


----------



## chummly138

TiVo also needs to add a feature to diagnose my Microwave to tell me when my popcorn is done to go along with the application they need to diagnose my faulty network. GRRRR!


----------



## berkshires

chummly138 said:


> TiVo also needs to add a feature to diagnose my Microwave to tell me when my popcorn is done to go along with the application they need to diagnose my faulty network. GRRRR!


That's silly. Dominos should add popcorn to their menu so you don't have that problem.


----------



## norbertsf

Has anyone had the problem occur where You just get a Blank screen when you go to the Netflix menu (on an S3)? Dsl is working, router is working, streaming works on the computer, and I can download Youtube stuff....


----------



## norbertsf

Rebooting the Tivo S3 solved the problem.


----------



## moyekj

berkshires said:


> What does streambaby do differnetly?


 It keeps a buffer up to 1.1GB in size on the Tivo such that if you have enough buffer built up you can FF/REW or skip around smoothly without interrupting the stream (just like watching a regular Tivo recording and using trick functions). Additionally, if you skip outside the buffer on the Tivo then it will show thumbnail pictures similar to how Tivo/Netflix does.


----------



## berkshires

I see, so the same fundamental mechanisms used by Netflix offer the ability to buffer significant amounts of time...just Netflix decided not to use buffering at this point.

I assume TiVo at some point made a decision to open the hard drive to HME/streaming/whatever which had been an issue previously. I wonder if that means you could buffer audio as well, allowing a better podcast app?


----------



## mikeyts

berkshires said:


> I see, so the same fundamental mechanisms used by Netflix offer the ability to buffer significant amounts of time...just Netflix decided not to use buffering at this point.


All the Netflix players buffer, they just don't use any 1.1GB worth of buffer (some 4 minutes, 50 seconds of highest bit rate Netflix content). A streaming player which doesn't buffer will pause every time bandwidth on the connection to the server dipped below the bit rate of the stream. Operating with a small, in-memory buffer makes it inexpensive to add a player to sundry networked A/V devices.

I wonder if a Netflix player could implement a large buffer on HDD if it wanted to?


----------



## moyekj

mikeyts said:


> I wonder if a Netflix player could implement a large buffer on HDD if it wanted to?


 There's no question that it can be done with a Tivo (YouTube is an example of it as are the 3rd party HME video streamers), but I can only guess it must be a Netflix contract violation to do so.


----------



## berkshires

moyekj said:


> There's no question that it can be done with a Tivo (YouTube is an example of it as are the 3rd party HME video streamers), but I can only guess it must be a Netflix contract violation to do so.


That is a very likely reason. I didn't know youtube takes advantage of this, and the whole availability of a buffer, particularly to the HD which HME previously could never touch for anything, is quite a breakthrough.


----------



## mikeyts

moyekj said:


> There's no question that it can be done with a Tivo (YouTube is an example of it as are the 3rd party HME video streamers), but I can only guess it must be a Netflix contract violation to do so.


That's kind of what I meant--is there something about Netflix streaming that prevents them from doing it, legally or protocol-wise. Though they did it with YouTube, their implementation of YouTube is not a streamer, as the web app is. Was there something about the streaming protocol used by YouTube that made it impossible to implement large buffering and true streaming at the same time? Is there something about Netflix's protocol that would prohibit it?


----------



## wmcbrine

Um, how are you defining "true streaming" so as to exclude what TiVo is doing with YouTube?


----------



## mikeyts

wmcbrine said:


> Um, how are you defining "true streaming" so as to exclude what TiVo is doing with YouTube?


True streaming gives you random access to the recording that you're playing. From the beginning, you can skip-to-tick (or grab and drag the progress shuttle in a PC player) and go to the other end of the recording--playback will immediately stop and start again at the selected point, without downloading any of the intervening video or audio. TiVo's YouTube player doesn't give you that ability--to get to the end of a clip, you have to wait for the entire thing to download. It's just playback-while-downloading, indistinct from Unbox or TiVoCast or MRV, except in that it doesn't store a permanent copy.

It's probably not correct to called that "true streaming", since there are applications which stream media without being able to do that (network "radio", for instance). The essential quality of streaming is that the media is being played as it flows from the network, with some buffering to make it smooth. Perhaps I should call it "random access streaming". Whatever. Most video streaming apps have this capability as do all of the Netflix players and the web YouTube player.


----------



## nguyej1

I plan to buy a TV HD and followed this forum for a while. Do we still have Netflix issues? Or you all avoid to use Netflix for now. Thanks


----------



## wmcbrine

mikeyts: Thanks, good answer.


----------



## mikeyts

nguyej1 said:


> I plan to buy a TV HD and followed this forum for a while. Do we still have Netflix issues? Or you all avoid to use Netflix for now. Thanks


There are still issues and some people are avoiding using it, for now.

I posted a poll to get a feel for how much trouble people were having using it, since reading the other Netflix threads would lead one to believe that very few people have had any success with it. 30% of respondents to that poll say that they've used it a lot and not had any problems, and another 50%, like me, have seen a few problems, but nothing that stops us from using and enjoying it. You can't predict how much trouble, if any, you'll have using it until you try it.


----------



## Joe3

nguyej1 said:


> I plan to buy a TV HD and followed this forum for a while. Do we still have Netflix issues? Or you all avoid to use Netflix for now. Thanks


If you're thinking of getting a TiVo, if that's what you mean, just get it.

It's not that TiVo can't keep up with all the cool and new stuff you're reading about, it's the cool stuff that can't keep up to TiVo.

What I and some others do here with any issue in this form is make sure that TiVo will always stays ahead of new and cool stuff you can get on TV.

Most people here get it so why don't you.


----------



## nguyej1

Joe3 said:


> If you're thinking of getting a TiVo, if that's what you mean, just get it.
> 
> It's not that TiVo can't keep up with all the cool and new stuff you're reading about, it's the cool stuff that can't keep up to TiVo.
> 
> What I and some others do here with any issue in this form is make sure that TiVo will always stays ahead of new and cool stuff you can get on TV.
> 
> Most people here get it so why don't you.


Thank you and mikeyts for advices and the poll. I just ordered Tivo HD.


----------



## pdhenry

mikeyts said:


> There are still issues and some people are avoiding using it, for now.


But not everyone is having issues, and of those that do, many (most? IDK) consider the issues minor and not of a magnitude to drive them away from Netflix.


----------



## Larry in TN

Has anyone noticed how quickly Netflix is adding the streams for new episodes of series which are being added as the season progresses? Specifically, I'm wondering how soon last night's episode of Heroes will be added to the season 3 list?


----------



## berkshires

Larry in TN said:


> Has anyone noticed how quickly Netflix is adding the streams for new episodes of series which are being added as the season progresses? Specifically, I'm wondering how soon last night's episode of Heroes will be added to the season 3 list?


When it first came out I noticed episodes took 1-2 days to show up. Pretty fast.


----------



## berkshires

Well, I finally came up with a Netflix issue after having no trouble on any of my 4 Netflix capable TiVos.

Netflix hooked me on MI-5 like a monkey on crack and when I got to the cliff hanger at the end of Vol. 4 late last night, I thought, no sweat, I'll just get up from under the covers and go downstairs and add Vol. 5 to my instant queue. Well Vol. 5 ain't available as instant.

I can't believe I had to go to bed suffering the suspense from not watching the next episode and I have to order the DVD and wait for the mail. I got even a little by starting Vol. 1 which I guess I should have started with in the first place.

Let this serve as a warning to all.


----------



## 4wheeljive

pdhenry said:


> But not everyone is having issues, and of those that do, many (most? IDK) consider the issues minor and not of a magnitude to drive them away from Netflix.


As I posted above, I experienced many of the "major" issues trying to run Netflix through TiVo (system freezes, black screen of death, constant reboots, etc.). In addition, I started experiencing a number of little "hiccups" during "normal" TiVo operations (e.g., watching live or slightly buffered live TV). Given others' posts about how Netflix had permanently crashed their entire TiVo machine, I was concerned that Netflix might have somehow corrupted my brand new machine as well.

So I contacted the place where I purchased my TiVo box, and they agreed to send me a new replacement machine. I will not be installing Netflix on this new machine until it is clear that TiVo and Netflix have identified and fixed whatever issues seem to be causing so many people so many problems.

I've been a longtime Netflix subscriber, and I'll keep my subscription to continue renting DVDs. But if it wasn't for that, I personally wouldn't pay for the Netflix service until they resolve the TiVo issues.


----------



## moyekj

berkshires said:


> Well, I finally came up with a Netflix issue after having no trouble on any of my 4 Netflix capable TiVos.
> 
> Netflix hooked me on MI-5 like a monkey on crack and when I got to the cliff hanger at the end of Vol. 4 late last night, I thought, no sweat, I'll just get up from under the covers and go downstairs and add Vol. 5 to my instant queue. Well Vol. 5 ain't available as instant.
> 
> I can't believe I had to go to bed suffering the suspense from not watching the next episode and I have to order the DVD and wait for the mail. I got even a little by starting Vol. 1 which I guess I should have started with in the first place.
> 
> Let this serve as a warning to all.


 Great series. Yes, I guess for latest 2 seasons I'm going to have to make my own streamable versions of all those episodes -- I guess the up side is quality should be better that way plus with nicer playback flexibility.


----------



## morac

4wheeljive said:


> So I contacted the place where I purchased my TiVo box, and they agreed to send me a new replacement machine. I will not be installing Netflix on this new machine until it is clear that TiVo and Netflix have identified and fixed whatever issues seem to be causing so many people so many problems.


Netflix doesn't install on the TiVo anymore than Yahoo or Youtube do.  It's simply an application that runs remotely that use hooks in the existing TiVo software. There's no way to not install the hooks as they are part of the current software.

BTW, if you are seeing problems during regular use I don't see how that could be caused by the Netflix application. The only known issue with Netflix (that survives a reboot) is that it can keep the TiVo from booting up if the connection to Netflix goes down while watching a video.


----------



## mikeyts

berkshires said:


> Well, I finally came up with a Netflix issue after having no trouble on any of my 4 Netflix capable TiVos.
> 
> Netflix hooked me on MI-5 like a monkey on crack and when I got to the cliff hanger at the end of Vol. 4 late last night, I thought, no sweat, I'll just get up from under the covers and go downstairs and add Vol. 5 to my instant queue. Well Vol. 5 ain't available as instant.
> 
> I can't believe I had to go to bed suffering the suspense from not watching the next episode and I have to order the DVD and wait for the mail. I got even a little by starting Vol. 1 which I guess I should have started with in the first place.
> 
> Let this serve as a warning to all.


The same thing happened to me with the _Doctor Who_ reboot. Netflix had the first three seasons of that to stream, but not the fourth.


----------



## apercer

pdhenry said:


> But not everyone is having issues, and of those that do, many (most? IDK) consider the issues minor and not of a magnitude to drive them away from Netflix.


I still need to reboot my TIVO every once in a while. I consider this a major headache to wait around 10 minutes (hoping the reboot works) when all I wanted to do was watch a 25 minute program. There are still significant bugs to be worked out.

Also, and this is not a TIVO issue, Netflix needs to seriously work on upgrading its selection.


----------



## berkshires

mikeyts said:


> The same thing happened to me with the _Doctor Who_ reboot. Netflix had the first three seasons of that to stream, but not the fourth.


Are you watching the old ones from the 60s and 70s?


----------



## mikeyts

berkshires said:


> Are you watching the old ones from the 60s and 70s?


No. I'm watching the reboot that started in 2005 (or rather, I've _watched_ the existing four seasons thereof--Series 5 apparently won't air in the UK until sometime in 2010).


----------



## mikeyts

Larry in TN said:


> Has anyone noticed how quickly Netflix is adding the streams for new episodes of series which are being added as the season progresses? Specifically, I'm wondering how soon last night's episode of Heroes will be added to the season 3 list?


When the service started, every time I missed recording an episode of something that they had the current season of, the episode that I missed was available for streaming the next day. I'm sure that that included at least one episode of _Heroes_. I notice today that last night's episode of _Heroes_ is not available for streaming today, but last night's episode of _CSI: Miami_ is. NBC may have changed the rules for _Heroes_. Many things are available on Hulu the day after they originally air, but _House, M.D._ episodes aren't available until 8 days later.


----------



## ffujita

nguyej1 said:


> I plan to buy a TV HD and followed this forum for a while. Do we still have Netflix issues? Or you all avoid to use Netflix for now. Thanks


As one of the people who has both a Roku Box, and a Series 3 TiVo, I'd say that if you're thinking about getting a TiVo primarily as a way to stream Netflix movies, then I'd wait until you saw the all clear here. On the other hand, even if my Tivo is never able to stream Netflix, I'd never give it up. So if you want the most user friendly DVR, with the possibility of being able to stream Netflix -- jump on it.

Frank


----------



## nguyej1

ffujita said:


> As one of the people who has both a Roku Box, and a Series 3 TiVo, I'd say that if you're thinking about getting a TiVo primarily as a way to stream Netflix movies, then I'd wait until you saw the all clear here. On the other hand, even if my Tivo is never able to stream Netflix, I'd never give it up. So if you want the most user friendly DVR, with the possibility of being able to stream Netflix -- jump on it.
> 
> Frank


Thanks for advice. I ordered Tivo HD yesterday. Do you like Roku box? and how is the box performance?


----------



## JimPa

nguyej1,

Although the S3 box (of course that's the one I've got)is having problems with the streaming video, some of the others aren't. You might want to look into those.
Another consideration is that with Tivo you get a monthly charge. Roku doesn't and Roku works fine. Netflix still charges you a monthly fee regardless whose box it comes in on.


----------



## ffujita

nguyej1 said:


> Thanks for advice. I ordered Tivo HD yesterday. Do you like Roku box? and how is the box performance?


The Roku box (which I ordered before the TiVo/Netflix announcement) doesn't have HDMI, but otherwise has a couple of advantages over the TiVo interface even if the TiVo were rock solid as a Netflix streamer.

The main advantage is that the Roku box remembers where in a season you are -- so if I'm watching Heroes Season 1, it remembers which episode I last watched, and the default is to watch the next episode. In contrast the TiVo will remember where in an episode I stopped watching, but not which episode I last watched.

A secondary advantage of the Roku Box over the TiVo is that you can scroll through the descriptions of the programs/movies with a single click. Specifically, if I'm in the movie description page in the Roku box, I can scroll right or left to the movie description page of the next movie. In contrast, on the TiVo, if I'm on the movie description page, I must go back out to the main page (which only lists the movie titles and cover art) and then down or up one movie, and then back to the movie description page of the new movie.

But, in general, my assumption is that a special purpose device will outperform a general purpose device -- so a TiVo outperforms a media center PC, though the media center PC does more things, and the Roku box outperforms the TiVo on the one task that it is designed to do.

Frank


----------



## morac

ffujita said:


> A secondary advantage of the Roku Box over the TiVo is that you can scroll through the descriptions of the programs/movies with a single click. Specifically, if I'm in the movie description page in the Roku box, I can scroll right or left to the movie description page of the next movie. In contrast, on the TiVo, if I'm on the movie description page, I must go back out to the main page (which only lists the movie titles and cover art) and then down or up one movie, and then back to the movie description page of the new movie.


Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I though you could use the page up/down button to jump between movies when in the description page. I know it works to jump between episodes of a TV series.


----------



## mikeyts

morac said:


> Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I though you could use the page up/down button to jump between movies when in the description page. I know it works to jump between episodes of a TV series.


I just tried it and you're right in that it does work for TV series episodes, but not for movie descriptions.

The Roku and BD player Netflix apps also indicate that a selection has an HD encoding available, which'd be nice.


----------



## Jeeters

ffujita said:


> The Roku box (which I ordered before the TiVo/Netflix announcement) doesn't have HDMI...


Yes it does.


----------



## ffujita

Jeeters said:


> Yes it does.


The Roku box does indeed have HDMI. I post corrected. Thanks -- I don't know how I missed that.

Frank


----------



## shady

Can someone try to watch the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy TV series (not the movie)

I'm having no luck. It plays for a couple of seconds, then jumps a minute and plays a couple more seconds ......

Most movies I watch are fine although I have been dumped to the main menu a couple of times, but Hitchhikers will not play.


For me - the service was perfect when I started using it at the beginning, I'm only just hitting issues now!


----------



## moyekj

shady said:


> Can someone try to watch the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy TV series (not the movie)
> 
> I'm having no luck. It plays for a couple of seconds, then jumps a minute and plays a couple more seconds ......
> 
> Most movies I watch are fine although I have been dumped to the main menu a couple of times, but Hitchhikers will not play.
> 
> For me - the service was perfect when I started using it at the beginning, I'm only just hitting issues now!


 MI-5 TV series season 3 has the same problem, but only playing back with S3 Tivos. THD/HDXL Tivos play them back fine. Do you have S3 or THD/HDXL unit?


----------



## shady

moyekj said:


> MI-5 TV series season 3 has the same problem, but only playing back with S3 Tivos. THD/HDXL Tivos play them back fine. Do you have S3 or THD/HDXL unit?


I have an S3


----------



## moyekj

shady said:


> I have an S3


 Then it's likely the same problem. The S3 units have a different VC-1 decoder than THD/HDXL units.


----------



## pdhenry

shady said:


> Can someone try to watch the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy TV series (not the movie)


I've watched an episode or two on a TiVo HD.

I tried to watch The Wild Parrots of Telegraph Hill several times but never could get a stream that would sync properly horizontally. Plays fine on my PC, but they use a unique stream for TiVos.


----------



## jrmsp

Got a weird one here....an episode from S1 of Heroes...it has sound, but no dialogue. Today got 95% through it with dialogue, but now they've stopped talking again. Very bizarre.


----------



## moyekj

I think it's becoming clear that the Tivo VC-1 decoders are not very robust (yet) and that the THD/HDXL are more robust than the S3. In contrast the H.264 decoders seem to be a lot more robust and handle all kinds of h.264 encodings.
A while back I experimented with getting VC-1 wmv files to play back natively (via streaming) on Tivos and found at the time only a very narrow range of encodings actually work.


----------



## mikeyts

moyekj said:


> I think it's becoming clear that the Tivo VC-1 decoders are not very robust (yet) and that the THD/HDXL are more robust than the S3. In contrast the H.264 decoders seem to be a lot more robust and handle all kinds of h.264 encodings.


Inasmuch as the decoders are "hardwired", I'd say that it's TiVo's usage of them that isn't solid yet. That feature of the two chipsets might work slightly differently in ways that aren't compensated for by TiVo's drivers.

In any case, if they can determine the problem, Netflix can deal with it in their encodings. Obviously, there is only a tiny subset of streams which work in one but not in the other. They must have something in common which can be avoided. Of course, if TiVo can fix it on their end, that would be the best solution.


----------



## teasip

After switching back to TiVo today from the Verizon HD-DVR's, can anyone tell me if the Netflix video streams are available in HD with DD 5.1? I've looked over the Netflix site and can't find a reference which to me implies no it isn't? If it is then I don't mind opening an account.


----------



## wmcbrine

No 5.1. A small percentage are in HD.


----------



## hummingbird_206

I haven't tried a lot of titles, but so far my results haven't been great. Only thing that worked 100% was the Pilot for US of Tara. Tried 2 eps of Season 8 CSI and both had audio sync problems. The Butterfly Effect also had audio sync issues. And tonight trying Smart People and it has "skipped" a couple of times and then died about 20 minutes into the movie. So far I'm not terribly impressed. I have an S3 hardwired to a Linksys router and Comcast internet connection.


Both movies, The Butterfly Effect and Smart People were in 4:3. The TV shows, CSI eps and US of Tara, were both 16:9. Is there some way to get the movies in 16:9?


----------



## teasip

Thanks for the follow up. I think I'll wait and watch for now and just run to Blockbuster when needed for movie entertainment. That was a nice advantage to the Verizon Moto DVR, the VOD capability in HD.


----------



## mikeyts

hummingbird_206 said:


> Both movies, The Butterfly Effect and Smart People were in 4:3. The TV shows, CSI eps and US of Tara, were both 16:9. Is there some way to get the movies in 16:9?


No--you get what you get. As far as I can see, lots of the "Starz Play" features are 4:3 (but not all--I watch _Grindhouse: Double Feature_ and a little of _Resident Evil: Extinction_ and they were both 16:9. It would be helpful if they'd say that in the descriptions (they do say if a feature is from Starz Play).


----------



## limeo

I thought I'd add my two cents regarding Netflix crashing Tivo.

The other night, I was watching a Netflix movie - and all the sudden Tivo died. We tried unplugging/plugging in all the wires, etc, to no avail. I called Tivo - unfortunately they didn't offer anything useful (actually, our phone died, so I asked her to call me back... she never did). So, Tivo just sat there, telling us to Wait! Only a few minutes more!

Luckily, today I was browsing this thread and someone suggested plugging in the Internet connection (USB network adaptor)... lo and behold, our TIvo is now working. You don't realize how much you love something until it's gone!

All thanks to this forum (and not Tivo)!


----------



## mikeyts

limeo said:


> Luckily, today I was browsing this thread and someone suggested plugging in the Internet connection (USB network adaptor)... lo and behold, our TIvo is now working.


I'm sorry--I don't understand. Did you try to use the Netflix feature _without_ having a broadband network connection on the TiVo (using a phone line to download guide updates)?


----------



## Scaevola

ffujita said:


> The Roku box (which I ordered before the TiVo/Netflix announcement) doesn't have HDMI, but otherwise has a couple of advantages over the TiVo interface even if the TiVo were rock solid as a Netflix streamer.
> 
> The main advantage is that the Roku box remembers where in a season you are -- so if I'm watching Heroes Season 1, it remembers which episode I last watched, and the default is to watch the next episode. In contrast the TiVo will remember where in an episode I stopped watching, but not which episode I last watched.
> 
> A secondary advantage of the Roku Box over the TiVo is that you can scroll through the descriptions of the programs/movies with a single click. Specifically, if I'm in the movie description page in the Roku box, I can scroll right or left to the movie description page of the next movie. In contrast, on the TiVo, if I'm on the movie description page, I must go back out to the main page (which only lists the movie titles and cover art) and then down or up one movie, and then back to the movie description page of the new movie.
> 
> But, in general, my assumption is that a special purpose device will outperform a general purpose device -- so a TiVo outperforms a media center PC, though the media center PC does more things, and the Roku box outperforms the TiVo on the one task that it is designed to do.
> 
> Frank


xbox360 does as well. Really hoping tivo integrates this feature, but not hopeful at least as far I have seen. And that's allI can say on the subject. It needs/should be included!

I bought a tivo over a xbox360 because I wanted plane shifting....that and 2/3 of xbox wills fail under warranty(design flaw). And I've wanted a tivo for like 6 years but the integration netflix has with xbox 360 is far superior (unfortunately to that have tivo). Especially w/ the hdmi audio bug!


----------



## Jeeters

Scaevola said:


> xbox360 does as well. Really hoping tivo integrates this feature, but not hopeful at least as far I have seen. And that's allI can say on the subject. It needs/should be included!


Which of the four paragraphs you quoted are you talking about?


----------



## birru

I've skimmed through the whole thread and haven't seen my issue. Basically, I can't watch Netflix streams on my TiVo HD. I have a FiOS connection, and my TiVo is wired using gigabit ethernet. Every movie in my queue shows nearly full quality, but the video never works. It constantly breaks up, macroblocks, stutters, and shows lots of green blocks and lines of artifacts. Audio sounds fine. This happens with every movie. It doesn't crash my TiVo or slow it down, and I've never had to perform an involuntary reboot. Meanwhile, the service works perfectly on my Xbox 360. Anyone else in the same boat?


----------



## berkshires

My S3 was pending restart last nite and now has 11.0b.E2-01-2-648

Is this new and could it be a fix?


----------



## mikeyts

berkshires said:


> My S3 was pending restart last nite and now has 11.0b.E2-01-2-648
> 
> Is this new and could it be a fix?


It's a beta release. If they didn't contact you and ask you to be a field test participant, it must be a release candidate that they're trying in a wider group to see if it generates any previously unseen problem reports. It might fix some Netflix problems--who knows? If you find anything that seems to work better, be sure to tell us .


----------



## mikeyts

Jeeters said:


> Which of the four paragraphs you quoted are you talking about?


Really . The only thing that I can think of that he quoted is that in the Xbox player, if you select a series and hit PLAY (or rather, the Y button--the Xbox player won't let you use the multimedia remote PLAY button on the selection screen ), it will start playing the last episode you were viewing and didn't complete, or the first episode which you haven't viewed. The Xbox player won't scroll from one title description to the next. (That might be nice, but title descriptions are arranged as 3 separate "3D" pages in he Xbox player GUI, and left and right are used to scroll between them).


----------



## berkshires

mikeyts said:


> It's a beta release. ... If you find anything that seems to work better, be sure to tell us .


No can do 'cause i'm heading out for 2 wks down south and I never had no problems anyway...accept for not having mi-5 V to watch. It was so much better finishing I and being able to see who died at the start of II


----------



## captkirk685

ffujita said:


> The Roku box (which I ordered before the TiVo/Netflix announcement) doesn't have HDMI, but otherwise has a couple of advantages over the TiVo interface even if the TiVo were rock solid as a Netflix streamer.
> 
> The main advantage is that the Roku box remembers where in a season you are -- so if I'm watching Heroes Season 1, it remembers which episode I last watched, and the default is to watch the next episode. In contrast the TiVo will remember where in an episode I stopped watching, but not which episode I last watched.
> 
> A secondary advantage of the Roku Box over the TiVo is that you can scroll through the descriptions of the programs/movies with a single click. Specifically, if I'm in the movie description page in the Roku box, I can scroll right or left to the movie description page of the next movie. In contrast, on the TiVo, if I'm on the movie description page, I must go back out to the main page (which only lists the movie titles and cover art) and then down or up one movie, and then back to the movie description page of the new movie.
> 
> But, in general, my assumption is that a special purpose device will outperform a general purpose device -- so a TiVo outperforms a media center PC, though the media center PC does more things, and the Roku box outperforms the TiVo on the one task that it is designed to do.
> 
> Frank


When you log into your netflix account it will show you the last episode you watched in a season, I know its not perfect and you can't see it on your tv though.


----------



## fred2

I was happily watching "Before the Devils Knows you're Dead" and exactly 60 minutes or one hour before the movie was to end (according to the time bar), the movie stopped and I was back in LiveTV. I went back and RESUMED but when it started, there was audio but a black screen. Stopped and restarted with the same result. Went backward in time a few clicks of the remote and it was fine after that and played through.

Original S3 with dsl-wireless. The playback was otherwise fine.


----------



## JimPa

So is the bottom line that there still are problems using Netflix on S3s and the new firmware that guy got who was going out of town for two weeks may or may not have anything to do with fixing it?


----------



## mikeyts

JimPa said:


> So is the bottom line that there still are problems using Netflix on S3s and the new firmware that guy got who was going out of town for two weeks may or may not have anything to do with fixing it?


That would sum it up, except there are still problems using Netflix on both S3s and HDs. There is some evidence that there may be some encoding-related problems with S3s that aren't present in HDs (some small subset of streams that play fine on HDs but which don't play back properly on S3s). All the other problems seem about equally likely to occur on either platform and there are definitely some streams which don't play back properly on either (some of which may play properly on other platforms, like the Roku and BD players).

I'd be surprised if the next TiVo firmware release didn't repair at least _some_ of the problems (one would hope that they'd at the very least address that "hangs when network becomes disconnected during streaming and can't reboot" thing ). Some of the problems are Netflix's fault and can't be fixed by TiVo.


----------



## pdhenry

mikeyts said:


> (some of which may play properly on other platforms, like the Roku and BD players).


This would be because TiVos play a TiVo-specific stream (according to TiVoStephen, in the OP). Or at least a different stream than the Roku and BD players.


----------



## mikeyts

pdhenry said:


> This would be because TiVos play a TiVo-specific stream (according to TiVoStephen, in the OP). Or at least a different stream than the Roku and BD players.


According to Netflix Engineering Manager Adrian Cockroft, TiVo, Roku and the BD Players share a set of encodings--the PC Silverlight player has a separate set (here):


> ... there are three different encodes:
> 
> Windows Media format: The original PC player, original Roku 1.01, Xbox 360, original LG and Samsung
> VC1 Advanced Profile for Slverlight: PC/Mac Silverlight Player
> VC1 Advanced Profile for embedded devices: Tivo, Roku 1.5, LG BD300 with .480 firmware, latest Samsung
> 
> Each encode is at up to 4 different speeds for standard def, plus two more for HD on the TV devices.


TiVoStephen wrote the top post before the latest firmware releases for the other embedded players came out.


----------



## berkshires

JimPa said:


> So is the bottom line that there still are problems using Netflix on S3s and the new firmware that guy got who was going out of town for two weeks may or may not have anything to do with fixing it?


I am having such a good time, I might extend the trip.

I wouldn't be an answer for the units having problems because my S3 and all my THDs have never had an issue. I could tell folks if I suddenly develop issues since the update, but then I'd have to experience 30 degree colder weather, ice and snow storms, and I might even have to see my eventually-to-be-X wife. (No jokes about the temperatures being related in any way.)


----------



## moyekj

berkshires said:


> I am having such a good time, I might extend the trip.
> 
> I wouldn't be an answer for the units having problems because my S3 and all my THDs have never had an issue. I could tell folks if I suddenly develop issues since the update, but then I'd have to experience 30 degree colder weather, ice and snow storms, and I might even have to see my eventually-to-be-X wife. (No jokes about the temperatures being related in any way.)


 If you want to see a problem for S3 try MI-5 season 3 episode 1 (or 2 or 3). Plays fine with THD/HD-XL units but totally messed up on S3 units.


----------



## berkshires

moyekj said:


> If you want to see a problem for S3 try MI-5 season 3 episode 1 (or 2 or 3). Plays fine with THD/HD-XL units but totally messed up on S3 units.


You know how to motivate me through my weaknesses.


----------



## Bonanzaair

I'm happy to say that once I replaced my S3 hard disk, by Netflix issues went away.


Bonanza


----------



## berkshires

Bonanzaair said:


> I'm happy to say that once I replaced my S3 hard disk, by Netflix issues went away.
> 
> Bonanza


Neither my S3 nor my THDs have original drives and I never had any technical problems...could you be on to something there????  Did you replace the original drive or a previously upgraded drive?


----------



## argylelager

Switched last night from HDMI to component, Netflix audio problems instantly gone.


----------



## JimPa

argylelager,

Try leaving HDMI connected for video and use toslink for audio. See if you get the same results. You are talking about lipsynch, right?


----------



## mikeyts

JimPa said:


> argylelager,
> 
> Try leaving HDMI connected for video and use toslink for audio. See if you get the same results. You are talking about lipsynch, right?


If you try this, make sure that you set audio appropriately. Be default (by HDMI spec) this would disable 5.1 output on S/PDIF.


----------



## snarler

Am I going crazy, or can I no longer FF or REW while watching Netflix on my HD?


----------



## pdhenry

I just FF'd in a Netflix title, so, um...


----------



## snarler

Crud...I've tried two different movies (an episode of Mythbusters and "Eye See You") and when I hit FF or REW, the little timer bar comes up on the bottom with the correct "you are here" ball with a single green forward facing arrow and nothing else happens other than the movie keeps playing. Isn't that usually when I see the little subwindow with frame grabs to give me a rough idea of where I am in the movie? I *know* this worked before...

v 11.0102652 with dots and dashes in there (other room and I'm lazy)
I tried resetting.

Bah...


----------



## ffujita

My TiVo problems (on some shows) are not related to an upgrade ... my S3 (hardwired, DSL) has not been cracked and no eSATA attached.


----------



## mikeyts

snarler said:


> Crud...I've tried two different movies (an episode of Mythbusters and "Eye See You") and when I hit FF or REW, the little timer bar comes up on the bottom with the correct "you are here" ball with a single green forward facing arrow and nothing else happens other than the movie keeps playing. Isn't that usually when I see the little subwindow with frame grabs to give me a rough idea of where I am in the movie? I *know* this worked before...


I just tried _Eye See You_ and had the same problem. Seems to be stream specific, since FF and REW work on a couple of other things in my queue that I tried after that.


----------



## dazed74

Anyone have any picture distortion when using netflix? It was working fine until February when it started having green hortizontal lines and now the picture is distorted and messed up. I called Netflix and they believe the problem resides in the Tivo.


----------



## nolanski

Sorry if this has been asked..does it stream or is it saved to the HD or both?


----------



## pdhenry

Streaming only, with a very small buffer.

If you FF or RW you get progrssive stills in a smaller window to show progress, then it streams anew (with a pause while it buffers) from where you end up.


----------



## Czachorski

My Tivo just froze from simply clicking on the netflix menu tonight at 9:20 eastern time. I'm on the second round of trying to reboot. I wonder if the netflex server was overloaded tonight because of the Obama speech and everyone going to netflix to watch something.

I am beyond sick of these issues with netflix freezing and requiring a hard restart. This is 100&#37; absolutely unacceptable behavior for a box that is our only portal to TV. I've given them at least 3 strikes, and they should be out. Issues like this just make me less and less comfortable using the netflix tool. That discomfort will inevitable lead to less use, and eventually canceling my subscription. 

Sorry, this service is just not ready for prime time.


----------



## skelm

happened to me too - Watching a program on Netflix, Tivo locked up hard. No response to remote. Tivo did come back up after two scary reboots.. It's made me scared to use it. Could we get an update on where we are with the fix? I don't want to break my unit


----------



## teasip

I appreciate all the comments. I gave Netflix some thought when I picked up our THD's a couple weeks ago but held off due to the insights offered here. I did sell my PS3 Monday and instead elected to purchase an AppleTV over the weekend and I have to say that it worked great last night for the first time using it (FiOS hard wired to network). We no longer have a HT DVD unit since we're renters only (DVD's).


----------



## berkshires

berkshires said:


> My S3 was pending restart last nite and now has 11.0b.E2-01-2-648
> 
> Is this new and could it be a fix?


People are reporting receiving the new version now. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=419949

keep eyes open for fixes.


----------



## jazzy01

my THD just got it after a forced connect and then restart/reboot!

11.0b.E2-01-2-652

hope it helps in watching Netflix streams!


----------



## moyekj

The new software (11.0b.E2-01-2-648) did NOT help with decode issues of MI-5 season 3 episodes. Those episodes decode (play) fine on THD/HD-XL units but not the S3 units and that's still the case.


----------



## 6079 Smith W

The 11.0b.E2-01-2-648 has not helped with issues in playing the original BBC version of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Constant skipping and "retrieving" while trying to play any of the first few episodes (I gave up trying, so I don't know if every single one of the 6 episodes has the problems.)


----------



## moyekj

I think it's pretty obvious this update has no fixes for decoding issues unfortunately. Hopefully at least has a fix for the Netflix induced endless reboot issue (I never suffered from that one but obviously many reporting here did).


----------



## Cheezmo

Twilight Zone Season one is finally fixed.

I just watched the first 5 minutes of the first episode of Hitchhikers Guide (BBC Series) with 11.0b and it was flawless.


----------



## mikeyts

Cheezmo said:


> Twilight Zone Season one is finally fixed.
> 
> I just watched the first 5 minutes of the first episode of Hitchhikers Guide (BBC Series) with 11.0b and it was flawless.


But you no doubt did it with a TiVo HD--the problem is TiVo S3 specific.


----------



## jazzy01

jazzy01 said:


> my THD just got it after a forced connect and then restart/reboot!
> 
> 11.0b.E2-01-2-652
> 
> hope it helps in watching Netflix streams!


I have just received a slightly different update on my THD:

11.0b-01-2-652

This would be the final load............not beta.
Netflix issues (for me) have gone away....yay!  thank you TIVO !


----------



## pdhenry

Here's an interesting Netflix issue:

Season 2, Episode 4 of *30 Rock* - "Rosemary's Baby"
The dialog is missing but all other sound is present - music, sound effects, etc. Just no speech.

At first I thought it was some dig about a writer's strike but the episode plays fine on my PC.


----------



## morac

pdhenry said:


> Here's an interesting Netflix issue:
> 
> Season 2, Episode 4 of *30 Rock* - "Rosemary's Baby"
> The dialog is missing but all other sound is present - music, sound effects, etc. Just no speech.
> 
> At first I thought it was some dig about a writer's strike but the episode plays fine on my PC.


Sounds like someone forgot to convert the 5.1 audio to stereo. It's probably missing the dialog channel.


----------



## georgemoe

Netflix communication errors this morning. 

It was fine last night.


----------



## HerronScott

mikeyts said:


> Some of the encodings for _Doctor Who: Season 2_ and _Doctor Who: Season 3_ seem to have some problems. (These are seasons from the revival of the series which started in 2005. Netflix has some original series stuff from the 60s, 70s and 80s, some of which are available for instant viewing, but they're two or three episode stories and not whole seasons). After watching the first episode of _Season 2_, I had severe problems with the 2nd episode, so I tested all episodes on a TiVo Series3. I got 10 bars in the connection speed test at the beginning of each (there's always an unlit 11th bar for SD content, which I've never seen filled). The first episode of _Season 2_ plays beautifully throughout, with DVD level PQ and widescreen AR; episodes 2-14 all stutter and skip unwatchably, with 4:3 aspect. (I tried a few of these in the PC Silverlight player with similar results). The first episode of _Season 3_ has problems, but all the rest seem fine, in widescreen, though the PQ of most of them doesn't come close to _Season 2, Episode 1_ (the last few seem pretty sharp).


Still seeing the same problem with bad encodings of Doctor Who Season 2 Episodes 2-14 with a Series 3 TiVo. I called and reported it so we'll see if they get it fixed.

Scott


----------



## DrWho453

georgemoe said:


> Netflix communication errors this morning.
> 
> It was fine last night.


I am also getting the message saying "an error occured communicating with Netflix. Please try again.". It was working fine Thursday night but last night and today I get this message. I know its connecting to netflix because I can see my playlist and I can even get the information on the movie but when I try to play any movie, I get the above message. I hope they get these Netflix issues straighten out soon. I like having the Netflix but it sure has its problems on Tivo.


----------



## DrWho453

DrWho453 said:


> I am also getting the message saying "an error occured communicating with Netflix. Please try again.". It was working fine Thursday night but last night and today I get this message. I know its connecting to netflix because I can see my playlist and I can even get the information on the movie but when I try to play any movie, I get the above message. I hope they get these Netflix issues straighten out soon. I like having the Netflix but it sure has its problems on Tivo.


Ok, I just fixed this error by deactivating the tivo on both the tivo and the netflix page and then reactivating it.


----------



## skelm

I have been getting them too - tried your fix and same, works some of the time, but not today or yesterday. I finally got one to start then it stopped and I have the dreaded dead tivo, time to pull the plug - whatever they did fix, this isn't it 



DrWho453 said:


> Ok, I just fixed this error by deactivating the tivo on both the tivo and the netflix page and then reactivating it.


----------



## maggiefan

Signed up for the Netflix account tonight and tried the instant streaming and it worked really good, no audio problems at all. So far so good. HDMI to TV, optical to receiver.


----------



## georgemoe

georgemoe said:


> Netflix communication errors this morning.
> 
> It was fine last night.





DrWho453 said:


> I am also getting the message saying "an error occured communicating with Netflix. Please try again.". It was working fine Thursday night but last night and today I get this message. I know its connecting to netflix because I can see my playlist and I can even get the information on the movie but when I try to play any movie, I get the above message. I hope they get these Netflix issues straighten out soon. I like having the Netflix but it sure has its problems on Tivo.





DrWho453 said:


> Ok, I just fixed this error by deactivating the tivo on both the tivo and the netflix page and then reactivating it.





skelm said:


> I have been getting them too - tried your fix and same, works some of the time, but not today or yesterday. I finally got one to start then it stopped and I have the dreaded dead tivo, time to pull the plug - whatever they did fix, this isn't it


Must have been a short term issue yesterday because last night both my TivoHD and Samsung BR-P2550 were working fine. I did not have to deactivate reactivate for this.


----------



## Ready4TiVo

moyekj said:


> The new software (11.0b.E2-01-2-648) did NOT help with decode issues of MI-5 season 3 episodes. Those episodes decode (play) fine on THD/HD-XL units but not the S3 units and that's still the case.


Exactly. I have a Series3 HD unit, connected to a Sony 40" HDTV, with audio from the TV out to a Sony receiver, and so far the Netflix option works pretty well except:

- MI-5 Season 3 video skips around while audio plays fine. The episode, however plays perfectly through my computer.

- Same thing with mini-series 'The State Within': video skips while the audio plays fine. Everything plays fine through my computer.

- one episode of MI-5 Season 2 was interrupted by scenes from a different, previously viewed BBC series in my queue (huh?!), while the MI-5 audio continued.

- AND... if I leave *any* Netflix stream on pause for more than 60 seconds or so, my Sony HDTV screen goes pink/purple, the TiVo unit freezes and must be unplugged/rebooted. This reboot takes much longer than usual; the first time this happened I thought my investment was going down the rabbit hole.

When I called Netflix support last week, they said it was the first time they had heard of such a thing. Ahem. MI-5, they'd heard about.

My firmware is updated. My wireless network stream is consistently 70-80%.

I'm otherwise fine with the service, but these quirks get me crazy.

Any ideas?


----------



## JimPa

maggiefan said:


> Signed up for the Netflix account tonight and tried the instant streaming and it worked really good, no audio problems at all. So far so good. HDMI to TV, optical to receiver.


What type of Tivo do you have and have you ever had the hard drive replaced?


----------



## maggiefan

The TiVo HD, no modifications. Just got it two weeks ago, (Sears deal). I have AT&T dsl, the speed is 3 Mbs, I actually get about 2.5 Mbs according to speed test. I have the TiVo hooked up to my router directly via ethernet cable.


----------



## mikalm

I tried Netflix on TivoHD when it first came out. It froze about two thirds of the way through the movie. Tonight, months later, I tried it again, hoping they had ironed out any bugs. Same result. Before I did anything, I googled the problem and found this thread. I've read many of the horror stories of frozen Tivo's difficult to reboot. I was lucky. I pressed the button for live TV, and regular Tivo service resumed, no need to reboot.
That's all the adventure I need. I will not be trying Netflix on Tivo again.
Michael


----------



## Resist

When is Tivo going to fix this NetFlix thing? I can't watch a single movie all the way through without it freezing or kicking me out to the main Netflix screen. Come on already, enough is enough!

Funny how I have no issues at all with NetFlix working correctly on my XBox 360.


----------



## fred2

I will admit I am one of the tivo-netflix cowards. I tried it about a month ago and got the frozen tivo a few times, lost my external drive for 2 reboots and finally got it back. Giving it another shot back then I watched one movie, was booted to LiveTV. Got back and finished my movie. This weekend, while the tivo was NOT RECORDING anything I wanted, I gave it another try after getting two updates in two days.

It went fine actually BUT....

I am still not really willing to try it while tivo is recording any season pass. Yes, I can probably torrent a missed show but that is a bit more tedious. 

So until my trust is restored by fewer issues being posted here, Netflix is generally reserved for physical dvd's from the mail or off-periods when tivo is not recording primetime tv shows.


----------



## fred2

We WERE watching the Grocer's Son with its subtitles! About 42 minutes into the movie, it started retrieving again. Only when it started to play again, the subtitles were off the bottom of the screen. Then it went black for a moment and titles were still kind of messed up. Then it skipped and we were at 46 minutes. 

Is there a way to BACK UP the movie? I don't see any way to get back to the 42 minute point without replaying them again. I guess you can' t fast forward even though it had streamed that much of the movie on the prior viewing.

She is not pleased and was mad at me for not being able to fix this mess!!!

At least, the Tivo did not lock up.


----------



## nolanski

New user here been watching Netflix for the last 2 days no issues except for a couple retrieval situations which was fine.
So far I love it! I'm even getting HD content!


----------



## pdhenry

fred2 said:


> Is there a way to BACK UP the movie? I don't see any way to get back to the 42 minute point without replaying them again. I guess you can' t fast forward even though it had streamed that much of the movie on the prior viewing.


The FF/RW keys work (in a different way than you're accustomed), but the player doesn't retain any of the program in a buffer that you can skip back within, if that's what you mean.


----------



## fred2

pdhenry said:


> The FF/RW keys work (in a different way than you're accustomed), but the player doesn't retain any of the program in a buffer that you can skip back within, if that's what you mean.


I restarted the movie from scratch and left the room to do other things. Came back and it had again past the point we wanted to start from but I THINK I was able to "move backward" I will know later today when WE attempt to resume.

So what do you mean "in a different way than you're accustomed?" I can try (at my age) to get accustomed to something new!


----------



## bkdtv

fred2 said:


> I restarted the movie from scratch and left the room to do other things. Came back and it had again past the point we wanted to start from but I THINK I was able to "move backward" I will know later today when WE attempt to resume.
> 
> So what do you mean "in a different way than you're accustomed?" I can try (at my age) to get accustomed to something new!


You can use FF/REW with Netflix just as you do on any recorded program, except you only see a smaller video window on the screen when using these functions.


----------



## fred2

bkdtv said:


> You can use FF/REW with Netflix just as you do on any recorded program, except you only see a smaller video window on the screen when using these functions.


Hmmmmmmm. The only thing I saw while pressing REW as what I will call the TIME-Button on the timeline showing, for example, 46 (meaning minutes). I would hear the Tivo sound but no window appeared and no video was apparent. Black screen and that Time-button. I got it to go backwards only by repeatedly pressing REW and then it would show "45" then slowly more tivo beeps, and 44.....

I am on wireless router to the Tivo so it might be slower to respond????


----------



## moyekj

You are supposed to see occasional thumbnail images showing snapshots of where you are as you FF/REW in a smaller window in center of screen. Could be that with wireless the lag is too big and it's not working right. I think there have been some reports of certain movies where the thumbnail generation not working properly which may be happening in this case. I have not run into it though I try and avoid FF/REW when using Netflix as I don't find the FF/REW mechanism very friendly or useful.


----------



## fred2

moyekj:

I fully agree that ff/rew is NOT very friendly. (and after last night the other viewer who shall remain nameless was also UNfriendly!)


----------



## mikeyts

If you're interested, there's a video of the interface on Dave Zatz' blog, here. Fast Forward is demonstrated around 58 seconds in.


----------



## jakerome

So have the extensive problems with the S3 TiVo been resolved? I typically try it once a month only to freeze up the TiVo, so I figured I'd ask first this time. FYI, streaming works flawlessly on an XBox 360 sitting right next to the TiVo.


----------



## fred2

Nope - did not get that box last night when attempting to ff/rew. Just the time-button and timebar.


----------



## bkdtv

fred2 said:


> Nope - did not get that box last night when attempting to ff/rew. Just the time-button and timebar.


If your Internet connection goes out temporarily, as would happen when your router crashes or reboots, then you'll lose access to FFW/REW. If the router is down for more than 30 seconds or so, then the Netflix application will subsequently crash.


----------



## spocko

moyekj said:


> You are supposed to see occasional thumbnail images showing snapshots of where you are as you FF/REW in a smaller window in center of screen. Could be that with wireless the lag is too big and it's not working right.


I use wireless and FF/REW works like it is supposed to. I have not had problems with any SD movie that I have watched (about 5 of them).

Today I tried my first HD movie, Pan's Labyrinth. The first 2 times I tried to start the movie it began the connection process and then gave an error. On the 3rd try it worked. I was very impressed with the picture quality.


----------



## morac

spocko said:


> Today I tried my first HD movie, Pan's Labyrinth. The first 2 times I tried to start the movie it began the connection process and then gave an error. On the 3rd try it worked. I was very impressed with the picture quality.


Does that mean Pan's Labyrinth is HD again? When I first tried it, it was in HD then at some point it would always be in SD no matter what I tried.


----------



## spocko

morac said:


> Does that mean Pan's Labyrinth is HD again?


It was HD yesterday afternoon. An "HD" symbol was shown while it was connecting, and the PQ was definitely better than SD.


----------



## tamooreindy

I changed dns settings in my router. My Netflix streaming seems to be much more reliable now and HD programs actually show in HD. I'm still not feeling confident as I did experience the crash often referred to on these forums and haven't found acknowledgment the problem is corrected. I have a Roku player but streaming to Netflix seems to be much better than to my Roku player. I guess different content distribution network servers must stream to Tivo than the ones that stream to Roku.


----------



## spocko

Another interesting observation: My wife was watching an HD stream which was playing at high quality. I started a download from the tivo to my PC via the web interface, and within 30 sec the netflix stream was rebuffering and reducing quality. I then canceled the download to my PC, restarted the netflix stream, and it was back to high quality. It seems that other concurrent network activity interferes with Netflix, at least during HD streaming.


----------



## pdhenry

Sounds like a router bandwidth issue, perhaps.


----------



## morac

Has anyone who uses Netflix regularly on TiVo kept track of the ratio of playable to non-playable videos? 

I'm not talking about problems where the video is playable, but you get kicked out why watching or the TiVo locks up. I'm talking about videos that simple can't be played back because of audio/video syncing issues or other playback issues.

My sample size is too small to be accurate (I have about a 20&#37; failure rate, but have watched very few things).

Since the S3 model is more picky about encoding than HD/XL models, any response should indicate the model.


----------



## mikeyts

morac said:


> Has anyone who uses Netflix regularly on TiVo kept track of the ratio of playable to non-playable videos?


I haven't really kept track, but my sense is that it's in the neighborhood of 10%. I generally just shrug and watch it on my Xbox or PC, both of which are connected to the same 46" panel and AVR that I use with my TiVo.


----------



## kmkoch

I'm just joining this thread... We've been watching 30 Rock Season 1 via Netflix on our S3. Quality is one bar shy of HD, but we're getting frequent Retrieving... messages (I've assumed this is due to the small buffer). Doesn't make a difference whether we connect the Tivo to the router wirelessly or via Ethernet cable.

We are running on AT&T DSL, and I acknowledge that it could well be a bandwidth issue, but I'd like to rule out the possibility of it being an S3 decoding issue before I upgrade our Internet connection (which is otherwise serving us well).

Thanks!


----------



## mikeyts

What's the max rated speed of AT&T DSL? I thought that the best service that they offer was something like 3 Mpbs. If so, I'm amazed that you're getting "one bar short of HD" on it. EDIT: I just checked and I see that they offer service up to 6 Mbps down.

Try streaming to your PC to see whether the behaviour is any better on a consistent basis.


----------



## spocko

spocko said:


> Another interesting observation: My wife was watching an HD stream which was playing at high quality. I started a download from the tivo to my PC via the web interface, and within 30 sec the netflix stream was rebuffering and reducing quality. I then canceled the download to my PC, restarted the netflix stream, and it was back to high quality. It seems that other concurrent network activity interferes with Netflix, at least during HD streaming.


I observed similar behavior yesterday when watching an SD stream, so it's not just with HD. This is not a big deal to me, since it's easy to avoid, but I'm just curious if anyone else can reproduce it?

For reference, my Tivo is connected to the network via a Belkin 5FD7330 wireless G gaming adapter to a D-Link DI-524 wireless G router. The Tivo and router are only about 25 ft apart, so no wireless signal issues. My Internet connection is via cable modem with 6mbps down, connected to the same router.


----------



## kmkoch

mikeyts said:


> What's the max rated speed of AT&T DSL? I thought that the best service that they offer was something like 3 Mpbs. If so, I'm amazed that you're getting "one bar short of HD" on it. EDIT: I just checked and I see that they offer service up to 6 Mbps down.
> 
> Try streaming to your PC to see whether the behaviour is any better on a consistent basis.


I need to check the actual downstream speed we're getting, but we pay for the package that offers a downstream speed of "Up to 1.5 Mbps". (Like I said, I'm perfectly willing to accept that it may be a bandwidth limitation -- but I'd like to rule out other possible explanations that might resolve with future S3 software updates.) But I guess I'm questioning whether an unsuccessful stream to my PC would prove that it's the DSL speed that's causing the problem, or whether a successful stream to my PC would prove it's NOT the DSL speed that's causing the problem... It seems to me that that such a test would just be a way of collecting another not-necessarily-useful data point...


----------



## mikeyts

For the original PC player, they'd test line speed and pick the highest quality encoding whose bit rate was no more than 60% of the tested speed, giving them 40% headroom, so that minor variations in the line speed wouldn't cause them to have to choose a lower rate encoding. (This is according to the "Encoding for streaming" entry on the Netflix blog). They say that their latest standard-def encoding are in VC1 at 375, 500, 1000 and 1500 Kbps (they have high-def encodings at 2800 and 3400 Kbps for some titles). If that's true and they're looking for 40% headroom, you should never get more than the 1 Mbps encoding, ever, with only 1.5 Mbps network service. If anything knocked your connection to their server down from the maximum rated speed by more than 1 Mbps, it would shift to a lower quality encoding--the player cannot go back the other way in its current incarnation (the PC Silverlight player supposedly dynamically adjusts, switching from encoding to encoding, up and down, as the connection speed varies--hopefully they'll bring that technology to all of the players, eventually).

I'd advise you to pay the extra $5/month for the 3 Mbps service, but it's your dime. 1.5 Mpbs service is borderline for this application.


----------



## kmkoch

mikeyts said:


> For the original PC player, they'd test line speed and pick the highest quality encoding whose bit rate was no more than 60% of the tested speed, giving them 40% headroom, so that minor variations in the line speed wouldn't cause them to have to choose a lower rate encoding. (This is according to the "Encoding for streaming" entry on the Netflix blog). They say that their latest standard-def encoding are in VC1 at 375, 500, 1000 and 1500 Kbps (they have high-def encodings at 2800 and 3400 Kbps for some titles). If that's true and they're looking for 40% headroom, you should never get more than the 1 Mbps encoding, ever, with only 1.5 Mbps network service. If anything knocked your connection to their server down from the maximum rated speed by more than 1 Mbps, it would shift to a lower quality encoding--the player cannot go back the other way in its current incarnation (the PC Silverlight player supposedly dynamically adjusts, switching from encoding to encoding, up and down, as the connection speed varies--hopefully they'll bring that technology to all of the players, eventually).
> 
> I'd advise you to pay the extra $5/month for the 3 Mbps service, but it's your dime. 1.5 Mpbs service is borderline for this application.


Funny, I just read that blog post myself this afternoon. 

But I'm also reading comments below that very blog post from people who have much faster connections than I do that are still experiencing the same problem I have. (See, for example, the comment from John Muccigrosso.)

I think I agree with many posters of comments on that blog entry... there should be more user control over quality and/or buffer size. I'd be fine with letting the Tivo get a head-start on me so that it could buffer enough to let me watch a 21-minute show without 10 interruptions... Or let me dial down the quality... Besides, every time the playback is interrupted, and the connection speed is reanalyzed, it ends up going right back to the same quality level (which, as you point out, is probably too high given the base speed of my connection). I'm fine with paying $5 more per month for something of tangible value, but I'm not at this point convinced it would make the difference.


----------



## bakerja

spocko said:


> Another interesting observation: My wife was watching an HD stream which was playing at high quality. I started a download from the tivo to my PC via the web interface, and within 30 sec the netflix stream was rebuffering and reducing quality. I then canceled the download to my PC, restarted the netflix stream, and it was back to high quality. It seems that other concurrent network activity interferes with Netflix, at least during HD streaming.


Make sure you have enabled QOS in your router. That will apply the bandwith needed to run everything on your home network smoothly.


----------



## mikeyts

kmkoch said:


> I'm fine with paying $5 more per month for something of tangible value, but I'm not at this point convinced it would make the difference.


Maybe not ($10/month more for the 6 Mbps would give let you see the HD encodes, though ). Nothing that you can do will stop this from happening as the system now stands. If you have the 6 Mbps service, you'd just face occasionally dropping down from an HD stream. The higher your bandwidth, the less likely it is to happen, though. 3 Mbps isn't enough to get one of the HD encodes, but it increases bandwidth headroom for the highest quality SD stream from 40% to 100%.

I'd bet significant amounts of real money that your suggestion of an adjustable buffer ain't happening. For one thing, any such parameter would be out of place in a end-user oriented application and TiVo would therefore be uninclined to add it. For another,I wouldn't be surprised if the scope of functionality in the Netflix player is controlled by Netflix by agreement and TiVo doesn't have the option to add any such thing. They call the service "Watch Instantly", not "Watch Five Minutes From Now", and they'd probably not want people to get the option of a larger buffer.

IMHO, our greatest hope for abolishing these interruptions is the eventual adoption of the adaptive technology supposedly used in Silverlight, or something like it. There would occasional lapses in PQ, but it wouldn't pause and rebuffer to switch to a lower bit rate encoding, and it could transparently switch back to higher quality encodes as bandwidth returned.


----------



## szurlo

mikeyts said:


> IMHO, our greatest hope for abolishing these interruptions is the eventual adoption of the adaptive technology supposedly used in Silverlight, or something like it.


But that's just a band-aid to compensate for the fact that many home broadband connections are basically saturated (or worse) streaming high bit rate video. Eventually the only real solution is going to be to have bigger pipes at home. The amount of data that gets pushed to us is only going get bigger as more and better quality content becomes available, and you can only compress data so far. Basically, anyone using these services on a base DSL connection is living on borrowed time. The point is going to come fairly soon where it just wont be possible with any amount or rebuffering and/or bit rate reductions.
There was a day when 33.6kbps dial-up was fast enough for whatever you wanted to do on the net


----------



## kmkoch

mikeyts said:


> Maybe not ($10/month more for the 6 Mbps would give let you see the HD encodes, though ).


Does it not seem a little odd that on my meager-speed DSL connection I'm getting 9/10 bars consistently? (And actually last night at the beginning of the analysis, the "HD" was lit up too for a few moments...)



mikeyts said:


> I'd bet significant amounts of real money that your suggestion of an adjustable buffer ain't happening. For one thing, any such parameter would be out of place in a end-user oriented application and TiVo would therefore be uninclined to add it. For another,I wouldn't be surprised if the scope of functionality in the Netflix player is controlled by Netflix by agreement and TiVo doesn't have the option to add any such thing. They call the service "Watch Instantly", not "Watch Five Minutes From Now", and they'd probably not want people to get the option of a larger buffer.


I hear you, and it makes sense to me that this would be part of the agreement, and I accept that... But I *would* like the option to dial down the quality so that the service is usable even with a lower speed connection. It seems Netflix/Tivo are consistently overestimating my connection speed.

And, okay, don't let me control the size of the buffer, but maybe make it just a tad larger (or maybe let me see how much lead the buffer has on me the way most streaming applications do, at least)? Do we know exactly how much buffer we have on the Tivo Netflix app? Is there any reason to think it inadequate even with a faster connection?


----------



## kmkoch

szurlo said:


> But that's just a band-aid to compensate for the fact that many home broadband connections are basically saturated (or worse) streaming high bit rate video. Eventually the only real solution is going to be to have bigger pipes at home.


Which is why the ISPs are going to start charging you based on how much bandwidth you actually use. Oh joy.


----------



## szurlo

kmkoch said:


> Which is why the ISPs are going to start charging you based on how much bandwidth you actually use. Oh joy.


Well, they might try that, but I'm not convinced it will ever fly, and even if it does, the cost to the average consumer would have to be about the same as it is now, or unless ALL the ISPs adopted this at the same time, the ISP that did implement it and cause a huge price increase would immediately start bleeding customers to the competition. It would be different if they had started out using a metered system, like the cell phone companies, but I'm not sure they could successfully switch to a metered system unless they implemented it in such a way that most people would see no real change in their bills.


----------



## mikeyts

kmkoch said:


> Does it not seem a little odd that on my meager-speed DSL connection I'm getting 9/10 bars consistently? (And actually last night at the beginning of the analysis, the "HD" was lit up too for a few moments...)


Yes, it does seem strange. One possible explanation is that your ISP is implementing a "PowerBurst" sort of feature, allocating temporary bursts of higher bandwidth service when demand is low and snatching it back when demand rises. My 15-Mbps-rated cable network service features something like that, with bursts to 20+ Mbps (when it gives you the burst it takes it back after the first 10 MB ). Some services used to give temporary bursts of speed to fool online speed test pages. In any case, your connection should need to test out to significantly more than 1.5 Mbps to get the highest speed SD service and better than 2.8 Mbps to get HD.


----------



## mikeyts

szurlo said:


> Well, they might try that, but I'm not convinced it will ever fly, and even if it does, the cost to the average consumer would have to be about the same as it is now, or unless ALL the ISPs adopted this at the same time, the ISP that did implement it and cause a huge price increase would immediately start bleeding customers to the competition. It would be different if they had started out using a metered system, like the cell phone companies, but I'm not sure they could successfully switch to a metered system unless they implemented it in such a way that most people would see no real change in their bills.


The thing is, _most_ people do not yet download or stream vast amounts of data for video. If they set a 50 GB cap (the kind of numbers that I'm hearing) _most_ people would never experience overages.

_If_ the ISPs start using download caps, they'd better offer an upgrade at some reasonable price. This "50 GB for the current price with $1/extra-GB" ain't gonna fly.

If downloading movies and television becomes endemic, they have to do something to keep their profits up. I keep hearing, "Oh, I love the new Netflix streaming so much that we've dumped all of our premium cable service". Ouch.


----------



## kmkoch

mikeyts said:


> Yes, it does seem strange. One possible explanation is that your ISP is implementing a "PowerBurst" sort of feature, allocating temporary bursts of higher bandwidth service when demand is low and snatching it back when demand rises. Some services used to give temporary bursts of speed to fool online speed test pages. In any case, your connection should need to test out to significantly more than 1.5 Mbps to get the highest speed SD service and better than 2.8 Mbps to get HD.


In speed tests at dslreports.com, the fastest download speed I'm getting is just under 1 Mbps (934 Kbps)... So I think I need another explanation...


----------



## szurlo

mikeyts said:


> The thing is, _most_ people do not yet download or stream vast amounts of data for video. If they set a 50 GB cap (the kind of numbers that I'm hearing) _most_ people would never experience overages.


Right now, that is. But what happens when 50GB becomes the average? At some point they have to accept that the new usage rate is "normal". Once they do that, they would have to raise the cap, so in the long term, what's the point?. A cap is just their way of saying "we are currently incapable of supporting the demand users are making on our system so we are going to penalize the biggest users to discourage them". How much additional revenue do you really think they could make from cap violations? I really don't think this is a profit center for them. The same goes for metered service. If the vast majority of users won't be effected by going to metered service, then whats the point, from the ISPs perspective? 


mikeyts said:


> _If_ the ISPs start using download caps, they'd better offer an upgrade at some reasonable price. This "50 GB for the current price with $1/extra-GB" ain't gonna fly.


I agree 100%. I think the best plan is tiered service (which most ISPs already offer) based on bandwidth, not total consumption. I pay an extra $10 per month on top of my regular $45 to get 10Mb/sec down. I have no problem with that. I could pay less and my speed would simply be a bit slower, but I would still know EXACTLY how much my bill would be every month. I bet they make a HECK of a lot more money per month from people that pay this $10 than they would from cap violations.


mikeyts said:


> If downloading movies and television becomes endemic, they have to do something to keep their profits up. I keep hearing, "Oh, I love the new Netflix streaming so much that we've dumped all of our premium cable service". Ouch.


I'm not suggesting that they should not be able to seek additional revenue from broadband users for the increase in traffic. I'm just saying that I don't think MB CAPs and metered usage is the right way to go about it. Of course they could do it like the cell phone companies. You could buy a metered plan, or if you have really deep pockets, you could go for the unlimited plan. But like I said before, since they didn't START OUT selling metered service, how on earth could they go to it now? Offering metered service that didn't increase the average users bill would accomplish nothing for anyone. On the other hand, if you go to a metered usage plan that would actually increase their revenue across the board, then existing subs will feel like they are being penalized. Why not just raise the base rates and leave the caps and metered service out of the equation? Basically what I'm saying is that any attempt to use caps and metering to actually make more money at this point is going to feel to existing subscribers like suddenly getting less for the same money.


----------



## szurlo

mikeyts said:


> Time Warner has claimed (here), "Five percent of the subscribers are consuming half of the local line capacity". Also note that that article talks about them using a 40 GB cap, for people with their highest rate 15 Mbps service, and smaller caps for people paying less . Comcast has launched metered service in some areas using a 200 GB cap, something that I could easily live with.
> 
> I'm sure that some "bright" MBAs have analyzed the business case, otherwise they'd not be spending the money to implement it. I also think that they're probably wrong, and that they'll just lose the heavy bandwidth consume providers as soon as equal or better speed network service is offered to them.


Yeah, I guess the bottom line is that a bunch of people that know a lot more than we do about making a business profitable have done the math on this, but I still remain skeptical. What looks good on paper frequently fails hard in real life.


----------



## mikeyts

Time Warner has claimed (here), "Five percent of the subscribers are consuming half of the local line capacity". Also note that that article talks about them using a 40 GB cap, for people with their highest rate 15 Mbps service, and smaller caps for people paying less . Comcast has launched metered service in some areas using a 250 GB cap, something that I could easily live with. At 4-10 GB into which the legal download services are encoding 2 hour films into, that's more than I'd use in a month.

EDIT: I just read a bit from February stating that TWC is expanding their bandwidth cap to more cities, apparently pleased with its effect in their test market (I doubt that Beaumont, TX is a problem spot, but I might be wrong about that).

I'm sure that some "bright" MBAs have analyzed the business case, otherwise they'd not be spending the money to implement it. I also think that they're probably wrong, and that they'll just lose the heavy bandwidth consumers to other providers as soon as equal or better speed network service without bit caps is offered to them.


----------



## twoehr

I just tried Netflix on Tuesday night and after about 10 minutes my S3 locked up. When trying to reboot I get the "click of death", so my drive is gone. I wish I read this thread first!

While many seem to be fine, it doesn't seem like instant downloads are worth playing Russian Roulette with such an expensive piece of hardware. If I get the urge to try again I think I'll buy one of those $100 streaming devices instead.

Where do I sent the repair bill?


----------



## szurlo

twoehr said:


> I just tried Netflix on Tuesday night and after about 10 minutes my S3 locked up. When trying to reboot I get the "click of death", so my drive is gone. I wish I read this thread first!
> 
> While many seem to be fine, it doesn't seem like instant downloads are worth playing Russian Roulette with such an expensive piece of hardware. If I get the urge to try again I think I'll buy one of those $100 streaming devices instead.
> 
> Where do I sent the repair bill?


The netflix "bricking issue" has to do with the way the tivo and netflix handle network connections on boot. Usually when a hard drive is doing the "click of death" there has been an actual physical hardware failure internal to the drive itself. (That sound is the arm that carries the read/write head swinging back and forth across the platters but failing to position correctly and repeatedly retrying). I know of no way that software could cause that. But hey, I've been wrong before 
My guess is that your S3 locked up while watching NetFlix BECAUSE of the hard drive failure, not the other way around.


----------



## nolanski

mikeyts said:


> What's the max rated speed of AT&T DSL? I thought that the best service that they offer was something like 3 Mpbs. If so, I'm amazed that you're getting "one bar short of HD" on it. EDIT: I just checked and I see that they offer service up to 6 Mbps down.
> 
> Try streaming to your PC to see whether the behaviour is any better on a consistent basis.


1.5 or worse for me with Qwest.
But I just bagged them for Clearwire wireless I get 6Mbps now and phone for much less.


----------



## nolanski

When trying to watch HD content I'm initially getting all bars but after just a few seconds or minutes I drop to SD.
My provider Clearwire gives me 6Mbps at the router.
I'm wireless G signal is good 69%+.

Is this signal at "good" preventing me from a stable HD feed or do I need better? 

I have been reading this thread...can't figure out what makes a stable HD feed.


----------



## mphype

nolanski said:


> When trying to watch HD content I'm initially getting all bars but after just a few seconds or minutes I drop to SD.
> My provider Clearwire gives me 6Mbps at the router.
> I'm wireless G signal is good 69%+.
> 
> Is this signal at "good" preventing me from a stable HD feed or do I need better?
> 
> I have been reading this thread...can't figure out what makes a stable HD feed.


Yes its because your internet speed has slowed. Generally good wont get you HD from my experience. What is weird though is that my TivoHD and my xbox360 which both stream netflix act very different. My xbox gets a stronger siganl for whatever reason even though they are both using wifi and are located < a foot from each other.

Anyone know of a way to force HD even if it requires a longer buffer time?


----------



## kmkoch

nolanski said:


> When trying to watch HD content I'm initially getting all bars but after just a few seconds or minutes I drop to SD.
> My provider Clearwire gives me 6Mbps at the router.
> I


Are you pretty certain you're actually getting the 6Mbps you're supposed to be getting from Clearwire? Because that *should* be more than enough for HD, according to Netflix, right?

Personally, I didn't find a difference between wireless & wired, and I've usually got a 30-some% signal on my wireless. I was signed up for a 1.5Mbps DSL package, but in speed tests at dslreports.com, I realized I was getting 1/3 to 1/2 of that...

But you could always do what I did and make yourself a nice long Ethernet cable to test out the wireless-as-the-problem theory...


----------



## nolanski

kmkoch said:


> Are you pretty certain you're actually getting the 6Mbps you're supposed to be getting from Clearwire? Because that *should* be more than enough for HD, according to Netflix, right?
> 
> Personally, I didn't find a difference between wireless & wired, and I've usually got a 30-some% signal on my wireless. I was signed up for a 1.5Mbps DSL package, but in speed tests at dslreports.com, I realized I was getting 1/3 to 1/2 of that...
> 
> But you could always do what I did and make yourself a nice long Ethernet cable to test out the wireless-as-the-problem theory...


Yeah I checked it it's right at 6Mbps sometimes just a hair more or less.

Wife would love a cable running from upstairs to the Tivo downstairs but I am going to try it!


----------



## burnside

Hi, just signed up for the free trial and added some movies to my instant queue. I activated my 2 HD Tivos and saw the queue list on both, but everytime I choose a movie to watch, I get all the way to the play screen only to get a message saying there was an error communicating with netflix.

I decided to deactivate/reactivate netflix on one of the tivos, but still got the same problem. Any idea what may be going on? Just so you know I have Verizon Fios and my connection to the Tivos goes like this:

Verizon Router -> 10/100 Switch -> Tivos

Thanks for any help!
b


----------



## burnside

Forget it, all of a sudden it started working last night. I'll try and see how it does later on today.

b


----------



## nolanski

I put in a range expander and I'm getting a solid 100% signal now. Some times I get a 1-3 retrievals in the first minute or so then it's stable...I have no issue with that.

I'm getting a pretty decent picture not as good a upconverted DVD on the HD is OK.

But for free no complaints so far.


----------



## JimPa

Is it still crashing S3s????


----------



## shady

JimPa said:


> Is it still crashing S3s????


Mine doesn't

although there are still some unplayable movies


----------



## mikeyts

JimPa said:


> Is it still crashing S3s????


If your network goes down while it's streaming, it can cause the unit to freeze with no way to revive it other than to pull the plug. I don't know that this is S3 specific. I do know that there was a problem with a failure to reboot after this which caused some people to have to return their DVRs for service, but they fixed that problem in the 11b firmware release.

They have not fixed the problem of units freezing when the network goes down, yet--it really ought to just display a message and let you back out.


----------



## Daghain

Two nights ago was my first problem with Nexflix having to repeatedly stop to buffer a TV show. Several times, when it restarted, I had to back out and go back in because the show and sound were out of synch. Last night it was completely fine. I don't know if it was a problem with that particular show, Netflix itself or my network. Weird.


----------



## tiggs76

I just started using netflix on my tivo and am about to throw the thing out the window, am so frustrated. The 3 days I have been using netflix I have had to reboot more than 20 times. I have a very busy recording schedule on all of my tivos and by rebooting I have missed some of my recordings. I pay for this service and dont expect substandard software that cant handle the network dropping out. Is there going to be a fix for this problem? Or is the box going to freeze up every time the network drops out.

I suggest never using netflix on your tivo box, its not worth the hasstle....


----------



## JimPa

tiggs,

Which tivo box do you have?


----------



## nguyej1

Daghain said:


> Two nights ago was my first problem with Nexflix having to repeatedly stop to buffer a TV show. Several times, when it restarted, I had to back out and go back in because the show and sound were out of synch. Last night it was completely fine. I don't know if it was a problem with that particular show, Netflix itself or my network. Weird.


When I watched Netflix movies in my Tivo HD, there will no other activity in network. That is my rule of thumb. I have Comcast cable modem with 6Mps xfer rate.


----------



## spocko

tiggs76 said:


> I suggest never using netflix on your tivo box, its not worth the hasstle....


Hmm, I'm sorry for your trouble, but I wouldn't state that as a general recommendation. Apparently the experience can vary quite a bit. I've watched about 15 Netflix instant programs on my Tivo HD over a wireless connection and haven't had any significant problems. The Netflix support was the one of the things that motivated me to get a Tivo, and I'm quite pleased.

I will admit that I don't think I've watched Netflix while a recording was in process, so maybe that is a factor.

The only minor hiccups I've seen:
- One time the audio was a bit out of sync. A brief rewind, which caused a rebuffer, fixed it. 
- A couple times when trying to start an HD program I got an error message about connecting to Netflix. When I tried again it worked. Haven't seen this with SD content.


----------



## mikeyts

spocko said:


> tiggs76 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest never using netflix on your tivo box, its not worth the hasstle....
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, I'm sorry for your trouble, but I wouldn't state that as a general recommendation.
Click to expand...

I'd agree. I posted a poll (here) to get a sense of how many people were successfully using Netflix streaming. According to those responses, 31% of people who've tried it have used it a lot without experiencing any problems and another 48.72% have had a few problems, but nothing which stops them from using it, making a total of about 80% who've had enough success using it to enjoy it. I checked the poll occasionally while it was first up and those percentages remained pretty steady as the number of responses increased.

I'd advise people to try it, but don't struggle too hard with it if you can't get it to work well enough to be useful now. (It's a lot easier to recommend that since they fixed the problem that was bricking some folks' boxes in 11b ). Try it again with subsequent firmware updates to see if they've fixed the problems you were having.


----------



## nguyej1

spocko said:


> I will admit that I don't think I've watched Netflix while a recording was in process, so maybe that is a factor.


I have watched Netflix while my Tivo HD recorded two channels without any issues. As I noted in previous thread, while watching Netflix, do not have any Internet activities (Download or Upload) or transfer shows from Tivo to PC.


----------



## Bob Lee

Is there any type of "debug mode" available to allow one to diagnose issues with Netflix streaming? On the Roku box there is, and it will provide an estimation of the bandwidth available between your home and the Netflix servers as well as the specific Netflix stream (e.g. 1.5Mb) being used.


----------



## sieglinde

I guess I will give it a try since the permanent lock issues seem to have been solved. I have a TivoHD.


----------



## woodway

I have a couple of TIVO HD's and am using Netflix over a Verizon FIOS connection. My FIOS speed is provisioned at 10Mbs down/ 2Mbs up. Speed tests show that I am typically getting 12Mbs down and 3Mbs up.

Here are the issues that I have with the Netflix application:

1. From what I have read, my 10/2 connection should be plenty fast to stream content in HD, yet I always get all but one bar on the "quality" readout you see when the video is buffering, and the video quality is obviously not HD.

2. When I first start the application and am trying to scroll through the list of movies in my queue, the application will often freeze for 15-30 seconds. Any button presses executed while the application is frozen queue up and then execute when the application un-freezes.

3. Ocasionally the audio and video are out of sync. Hitting fast forward or rewind then play will usually clear this condition up.

Over all, it feels like a beta quality application that has been released before it's time.


----------



## bkdtv

woodway said:


> 1. From what I have read, my 10/2 connection should be plenty fast to stream content in HD, yet I always get all but one bar on the "quality" readout you see when the video is buffering, and the video quality is obviously not HD.


All the issues you describe are exactly what you would see with an unstable wireless connection.

How are you networking your TiVo? I'd guess you are using wireless, and the wireless conditions are poor in your home. The [FiOS] Actiontec router isn't exactly known for its range, so that wouldn't be entirely unsurprising. Are you using any other wireless devices that could be causing interference, such as 2.4GHz phones or a 2.4GHz wireless video cameras?

On the System Information screen, what does the TiVo say you have for a wireless signal? Ideally, you want something in the mid 80s or above. Anything less than 60 can produce poor results with Netflix. You might try logging in to your [FiOS] Actiontec router and changing the wireless channel -- try 1/6/11 and note the effect on the wireless signal reported by the TiVo.


----------



## wmcbrine

woodway said:


> 1. From what I have read, my 10/2 connection should be plenty fast to stream content in HD, yet I always get all but one bar on the "quality" readout you see when the video is buffering, and the video quality is obviously not HD.


Most titles aren't provided in HD. In which case, what you're seeing is normal.


----------



## pdhenry

HD is a "genre" in the Netflix search menu. I seldom receive HD quality, even for those titles.


----------



## woodway

bkdtv said:


> All the issues you describe are exactly what you would see with an unstable wireless connection.


Networked over a hardwired 100Mbs ethernet connection. Also, I have the Westell router, not the Actiontec.

I unplugged the network cable from the Tivo and plugged it into my laptop to run the speedtest, and the results are consistently good, so I believe that my local network is not the issue.



wmcbrine said:


> Most titles aren't provided in HD. In which case, what you're seeing is normal.


I suspect that is is my problem - how do you tell which ones are provided in HD and which ones are not?


----------



## woodway

pdhenry said:


> HD is a "genre" in the Netflix search menu. I seldom receive HD quality, even for those titles.


I am not sure what you mean by this? I see a "Bluray" genres, but not an "HD" genres.


----------



## szurlo

woodway said:


> I am not sure what you mean by this? I see a "Bluray" genres, but not an "HD" genres.


In netflix, click the "Watch Instantly" tab. Then click the "Genre" drop-down. One of the selections is "HD". This will give you a list of HD streaming content.


----------



## bkdtv

If you are testing Netflix HD functionality, Heroes Season3 is a choice.


----------



## mikeyts

woodway said:


> I am not sure what you mean by this? I see a "Bluray" genres, but not an "HD" genres.


Use:

http://www.netflix.com/WiHD?ftr=false​
The "?ftr=false" part suppresses a filter for seen and rated titles, which is turned on by default for that genre (and not for other genres, so it's probably a bug).

I, unlike pdhenry, usually do get and maintain the HD quality stream . 
Ever so often, a hiccup in network performance causes it to switch to a lower bit rate stream; when this happens, I just get stop playback and start it again.


----------



## Human Bean

HD has been really hit or miss for me. This weekend it's been all miss; can't get an HD stream no matter what I try. One or sometimes 3 bars down from max. 

Pity, as I really really wanted to watch some stuff; "HD" quality is minimally acceptable, anything worse is too soft.

(Direct 100 connection to FIOS 15/3, speedtest looks good.)


----------



## woodway

Thanks all for the tips on how to find HD titles to stream. I've tried a couple and still no-go. I consistently get one bar down from the max. My speedtests (from broadbandreports.com) look good, so I don't think it's my home network, or the immeidate Verizon network that is causing the issue. 

I see others are having the same problem, so I will assume it's a internet routing or netflix issue.

I sure wish there was a way to run the speedtest from the TIVO box, or that the TIVO netflix application gave a little more information on why it is selecting the speed it does.


----------



## pdhenry

Try some episodes of 30 Rock. For some reason that's the only thing that ever comes in with HD quality.

HD minus 1 bar is better than stretched SD on my Samsung (close to or better than a DVD connected via S-Video), so I don't have any problem watching Netflix at that quality.


----------



## mikeyts

woodway said:


> Thanks all for the tips on how to find HD titles to stream. I've tried a couple and still no-go. I consistently get one bar down from the max. My speedtests (from broadbandreports.com) look good, so I don't think it's my home network, or the immeidate Verizon network that is causing the issue.


Speed tests don't really indicate the speed of your connection to whereever Netflix's nearest server to you is. Of course, there's no way of telling where that is. Read the "Netflix Trying for Consistent Excellence on Streaming" entry on Netflix's blog for some of the issues.


----------



## nolanski

woodway said:


> Thanks all for the tips on how to find HD titles to stream. I've tried a couple and still no-go. I consistently get one bar down from the max. My speedtests (from broadbandreports.com) look good, so I don't think it's my home network, or the immeidate Verizon network that is causing the issue.
> 
> I see others are having the same problem, so I will assume it's a internet routing or netflix issue.
> 
> I sure wish there was a way to run the speedtest from the TIVO box, or that the TIVO netflix application gave a little more information on why it is selecting the speed it does.


I'm having the same issue. I get all bars in the beginning then it buffers a couple times and and lose one bar and the HD feed ..but not a deal breaker for me. 
I have clear wire that runs fairly consistent @ 6Mbps on a wireless G. I get get a consistent 100% at the TIVO.
The SD even looks pretty good on my 58" Plasma considering the source.
I do wish that I could get consistent HD feed on the source material that is HD though.


----------



## rhapsodyrcks

I have a Apple TV, Roku box that streams Netflix and a Tivo HD. 

Streaming is a tricky thing sometimes. I think its hit or miss for alot of people. I have 12 mb/sec Time Warner and still have a occasional hiccup once in a while. 

If you don't have the necessary bandwidth then the application scales it down on the fly at least from what I have read and experienced. It doesn't regain the quality either usually I have to stop it exit out and relaunch it. 

I never have any problems with Apple TV as its a progressive downloader and stores it on the Apple TVs HDD. In terms of Tivo vs Roku I would say the quality is the same but the Roku is much peppier at navigating. I can instantly stop it exit to the main menu select something else. Something that I can't do on my Tivo. 

In most cases though for me it was something to do with bandwidth.


----------



## gonefishin

When it comes to Netflix/Tivo and streaming, I just feel that it's absurd not to allow some amount of user defined buffer. Give me the option of sacrificing time for quality or vice versa.

You have the hardware capabilities with a couple of Netflix ready boxes already. So why would you encourage someone to pay a third company more money in order to improve picture quality. No way! Keep the money in house and give people a reasonable choice to balance quality/time as they see fit.


dan


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## szurlo

szurlo said:


> Well, they might try that, but I'm not convinced it will ever fly, and even if it does, the cost to the average consumer would have to be about the same as it is now, or unless ALL the ISPs adopted this at the same time, the ISP that did implement it and cause a huge price increase would immediately start bleeding customers to the competition. It would be different if they had started out using a metered system, like the cell phone companies, but I'm not sure they could successfully switch to a metered system unless they implemented it in such a way that most people would see no real change in their bills.


As of today, TWC has abandoned their plans to roll out metered Internet access due to public and political outcry.
I rest my case 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30252543/


----------



## wmcbrine

szurlo said:


> As of today, TWC has abandoned their plans to roll out metered Internet access due to public and political outcry.


Yes we can! 

Awesome news. :up:


----------



## mikeyts

szurlo said:


> As of today, TWC has abandoned their plans to roll out metered Internet access due to public and political outcry.
> I rest my case
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30252543/


Well, the story's not over, so don't let the jury go just yet. From "Time Warner Scraps Bandwidth Cap Testing" at PCMag.com:


> "It is clear from the public response over the last two weeks that there is a great deal of misunderstanding about our plans to roll out additional tests on consumption based billing," Time Warner CEO Glen Britt said in a statement. "As a result, we will not proceed with implementation of additional tests until further consultation with our customers and other interested parties, ensuring that community needs are being met."
> *...*​"While we continue to believe that consumption based billing may be the best pricing plan for consumers, we want to do everything we can to inform our customers of our plans and have the benefit of their views as part of our testing process," Britt said Thursday.
> 
> As part of its education process, Time Warner will provide customers with tools to help them understand how much bandwidth they consume. No mention of how long that will continue before testing resumes.


So, given public outcry and some noise about investigation by Congress, they've decided to cool it for the moment, but they haven't given up on the idea entirely, yet. Hopefully they will.


----------



## bicker

I do think that they're looking for a time when people are note quite so ready to focus on this change in the political arena. Unrestricted, uncapped service is either going to end up metered, or insanely expensive. Which would you really prefer, when you strip your emotion out of it?


----------



## szurlo

bicker said:


> I do think that they're looking for a time when people are note quite so ready to focus on this change in the political arena. Unrestricted, uncapped service is either going to end up metered, or insanely expensive. Which would you really prefer, when you strip your emotion out of it?


Not really a question of emotions. Video delivery is obviously rapidly expanding (moving?) from RF to IP. The number of content providers is skyrocketing and consumers appear to love it. Capped or metered service has the potential stop that in its tracks. Based on the tiers TWC used in its trial market, ONE HD Netflix stream would more than likely exceed the limit for the lowest tier. 
My guess would be that TWCs plans to abandon this for the time being are as much a result of concerns from content providers as from consumers. 
I think bandwidth requirements for the majority of users are going to go through the roof in the near future. It's too late to un-ring that bell. The ISPs need to improve their infrastructure to support the demand, and if needed, raise rates modestly across the board to fund it. What they are trying to do would be akin to the sewer service saying "our pipes are no longer big enough to carry all the waste, so we are going to install meters on your toilets and charge the people that flush the most more money". Do they do that? No. They raise everyone's rates and use that revenue to buy the improvements required to meet the increased demand.


----------



## morac

One of main problems with TWCs plan, besides how low the cap was, was the sheer arrogance in which they presented it. Saying that customers wanted it and that the Internet would fail with out it didn't help much either.

BTW it's not even really dead, they just aren't expanded outside their current test markets. See http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Time-Warner-Cable-Metered-Billing-Will-Return-101962


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## wmcbrine

bicker said:


> Unrestricted, uncapped service is either going to end up metered, or insanely expensive.


No, it isn't. We've been hearing that crap for fifteen years or more. It's never been true, and at present, there's no reason to think that it ever will be true.


----------



## mikeyts

morac said:


> One of main problems with TWCs plan, besides how low the cap was, was the sheer arrogance in which they presented it. Saying that customers wanted it and that the Internet would fail with out it didn't help much either.


I agree. People have pointed out that, with their current pricing, TWC's income from providing Internet service went up and their cost for delivering service went down between 2007 and 2008. There's no reason to believe that the same won't happen this year. Like everything else based on electronic tech, the internet gets faster, cheaper and less complex to deploy, year by year by year.

And the size of their caps are outrageous. I doubt that many people have had cause to complain about Comcast's 250GB cap.


> BTW it's not even really dead, they just aren't expanded outside their current test markets. See http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Time-Warner-Cable-Metered-Billing-Will-Return-101962


I tried to point that out a couple of posts back, here. I actually think that they're shutting down their "tests" for the moment, so the cap will be removed in the places where they've implemented it.


----------



## bicker

szurlo said:


> What they are trying to do would be akin to the sewer service saying "our pipes are no longer big enough to carry all the waste, so we are going to install meters on your toilets and charge the people that flush the most more money". Do they do that?


Yes. MWRA charges for sewer service based on how much water you consume, figuring that the vast majority of water you consume ends up going into the sewer -- that the amount of water consumed is an excellent predictor of how much sewer service you're using.


----------



## szurlo

bicker said:


> Yes. MWRA charges for sewer service based on how much water you consume, figuring that the vast majority of water you consume ends up going into the sewer -- that the amount of water consumed is an excellent predictor of how much sewer service you're using.


I stand corrected. They don't do that here, however. We pay a flat rate for sewer. Only our water is metered.


----------



## bicker

You're mistaken. The Town of Lexington, SC, also charges for sewer service based on the amount of water consumed. The water rate is $3.50 per thousand gallons of water metered; the sewer rate is $4.14 per thousand gallons of water metered (capped at 10,000 gallons per month).


----------



## szurlo

bicker said:


> You're mistaken. The Town of Lexington, SC, also charges for sewer service based on the amount of water consumed. The water rate is $3.50 per thousand gallons of water metered; the sewer rate is $4.14 per thousand gallons of water metered (capped at 10,000 gallons per month).


I don't have water service from the Town of Lexington. I have water service from Carolina Water Service, Inc. I pay a flat rate of $39 per month for sewer.


----------



## bicker

Ouch so you're actually paying more than the cap of the sewer charge for folks who have service from the town (since at $3.50 per thousand gallons, with consumption above the cap of 10000 gallons, those folks pay only $35). Regardless, as you can see, even in your local area, as in most areas, it is common practice to charge for sewer by volume. A flat rate is only applied when there is no effective or cost-efficient way to measure usage, and then the flat rate accounts for a reasonable estimate of maximal usage. 

And bringing this back to HSI: There is no reason why HSI shouldn't be charged based on usage as well.


----------



## szurlo

bicker said:


> Ouch so you're actually paying more than the cap of the sewer charge for folks who have service from the town (since at $3.50 per thousand gallons, with consumption above the cap of 10000 gallons, those folks pay only $35).


We only pay $2.03 per 1k gallon for water, but yes, we are getting stroked for sewer. 


bicker said:


> And bringing this back to HSI: There is no reason why HSI shouldn't be charged based on usage as well.


On that, we'll have to disagree. I seriously doubt your sewer company meters their service as a punitive measure against heavy users because they are causing other users toilets to back up.
Would you support the cablecos going to metered service for RF television delivery? A per minute charge for watching TV? I'm sure at some point in the past someone said something like "Unrestricted, uncapped service is either going to end up metered, or insanely expensive" in regard to digital cable television. 
And they have had capacity issues. The solution has been moving analog channels to digital and implementing SDV. I'm sorry, but if you have a problem meeting demand for your service, you fix your service, not discourage your most active subscribers from using it. If they want to go to a metered service, fine. Use the absolute highest usage user they have as the base line for the standard plan and charge exactly what that user is paying right now and scale down from there. That would be fair to every single customer. Of course they wont do that, because they'd lose money. Tons of money. They want to RAISE rates on select users for the sole purpose of offsetting issues they have providing service. It has nothing to do with being fair to customers or making sure we all get what we pay for, etc.

DISCLAIMER: Here in Lexington, TWC does not meter our TV watching. I cant speak for other regions or providers.


----------



## bicker

szurlo said:


> On that, we'll have to disagree. I seriously doubt your sewer company meters their service as a punitive measure against heavy users because they are causing other users toilets to back up.


You can choose to see anything as "punitive measures" if you wish. Businesses generally don't engage in "punitive measures" -- they're interested in profit, not being vindictive. Metered pricing is strictly a matter of pricing-based-*on-value*.

iTunes recently changed its pricing... was that a "punitive measure" against folks who purchase mostly new releases? 



szurlo said:


> Would you support the cablecos going to metered service for RF television delivery?


What do you mean "support"? I rarely inject into these discussion what I would *prefer*, because my main contention, typically, is that my own personal preferences are pretty-much irrelevant.

If you're asking whether or not they should be allowed to do so... Answer: Yes. If you're asking whether or not I think it is a good business decision... Answer: I don't have access to the market research they have access to in order to determine that for you. I would think, based on what I can see, right now, that the answer is no, but that could change.

Metered RF television delivery is the ultimate _a la carte_ offering, and it is *consumerists* who are pushing for _a la carte_, not the MSOs.



szurlo said:


> And they have had capacity issues.


Whoa! *TOTALLY* different situation. RF television delivery's capacity issues are completely within the service provider's control, based on the number of channels they offer. They put those channels out, and it does incur any additional capacity load if one customer tunes in or 100 customers tune in. With HSI, the capacity issues are driven by consumers, without any control (currently) in the hands of the service provider. If 100 customers download the same program, it incurs multiple load (perhaps not 100-fold, but in most circumstances, pretty-much that much of a multiple). You're talking about apples and oranges.

A reasonable analogy, within the same context your analogy was attempted, would be to PPV and VOD. However, note the limitations on each of those services which mitigate the capacity issues.



szurlo said:


> I'm sorry, but if you have a problem meeting demand for your service, you fix your service, not discourage your most active subscribers from using it.


You can express as much regret and contrition as you wish, but just declaring something doesn't make it true. And just including a faulty *premise* in an assertion, as you've done here, also doesn't legitimize or validate your faulty premise.

One very valid way of addressing excessive demand is *capitalizing* on that demand -- literally that means turning that excessive demand into *more money* -- charging higher prices to bring demand back in line with supply. You do not need to like this way of doing business, but that doesn't make it a bad way of doing business. It is the way much of the business world operates. Indeed, much of the mass-marketplace is structured to first create demand, and then exploit that demand to make profits. Again (and I keep repeating it because it seems that folks miss when I say it only once) you don't have to like this way of doing business. That doesn't make it a bad way of doing business. Companies first obligation is _to their owners_.


----------



## morac

bicker said:


> Whoa! *TOTALLY* different situation. RF television delivery's capacity issues are completely within the service provider's control, based on the number of channels they offer. They put those channels out, and it does incur any additional capacity load if one customer tunes in or 100 customers tune in. With HSI, the capacity issues are driven by consumers, without any control (currently) in the hands of the service provider. If 100 customers download the same program, it incurs multiple load (perhaps not 100-fold, but in most circumstances, pretty-much that much of a multiple). You're talking about apples and oranges.


Actually the service provider _does_ completely control the capacity for HSI. The provider could easily set up the HSI service such that every user could max out their connection speeds and have no effect on other users. The problem is that by doing so, the service provider would either have to lower the provisioned speeds or add more nodes (*). The former would annoy customers while the later would be costly. So they chose to do neither and over-subscribed their lines. So to say that capacity issues are caused by consumers and that the providers have no control over this is not true.

(*) - A third option which recently became available to cable providers is to upgrade to DOCSIS 3.0 which is what many of them are doing.


----------



## szurlo

bicker said:


> One very valid way of addressing excessive demand is *capitalizing* on that demand -- literally that means turning that excessive demand into *more money* -- charging higher prices to bring demand back in line with supply. You do not need to like this way of doing business, but that doesn't make it a bad way of doing business. It is the way much of the business world operates. Indeed, much of the mass-marketplace is structured to first create demand, and then exploit that demand to make profits. Again (and I keep repeating it because it seems that folks miss when I say it only once) you don't have to like this way of doing business. That doesn't make it a bad way of doing business. Companies first obligation is _to their owners_.


Like OPEC...

My apparently lousy analogies and improper choice of words aside, I think you missed my overall point. That is that their decision to do this, in this fashion, at this time, will not do well in the court of public opinion, and recent events have weighed this out. People perceive this to be an underhanded way of generating more revenue. I have yet to speak to anyone that WANTS metered internet access. Flawed as my arguments may be, the proof is in the pudding. Yes, businesses can do pretty much whatever they want, but obviously that is not always a good idea.


----------



## bicker

morac said:


> TOTALLY different situation. RF television delivery's capacity *issues *are completely within the service provider's control, based on the number of channels they offer.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the service provider _does_ completely control the capacity for HSI.
Click to expand...

You *misread *the message you replied to.

Again, the service provider for linear television channels has full control over the need for capacity, while the service provider for HSI does not. As a corollary, the consumer of linear television channels *has no ability *to apply additional bandwidth load, requiring additional bandwidth capacity, for the service provision of linear television channel, while the customer of HSI *has all the control over* the bandwidth load, and can therefore unilaterally impose bandwidth capacity issues onto the service provider for HSI.


----------



## szurlo

bicker said:


> Businesses generally don't engage in "punitive measures" -- they're interested in profit, not being vindictive.


Really? Ever pay a bill late?



bicker said:


> Metered pricing is strictly a matter of pricing-based-*on-value*.


So I guess for the heavy users the value of their bandwidth just arbitrarily increased? (Referring more to caps than metered here)

Sorry but I just couldn't leave this one alone.


----------



## bicker

szurlo said:


> Like OPEC...


There are actually dozens of examples. Long before OPEC, DeBeers, practically single-handedly, created a market for diamonds, a market that they are still the dominant beneficiary. iPod, in a way, has done the same thing: Created a market for something, fostered its excessive demand, and is profiting greatly from their ability to capitalize on that demand.



szurlo said:


> My apparently lousy analogies and improper choice of words aside, I think you missed my overall point.


Don't mistake disagreeing with your point with missing it. This is business we're talking about. In discussions of the details of quadrature amplitude modulation, or the details of how VS8B works, I might be a bit cloudy, but when it comes to business, business law, marketing, etc., I don't miss anything. I also don't let my personal preferences about how I would like things to be to cloud my understanding of how things really are. I think *that *is precisely what many folks in many of these types of threads regularly do.



szurlo said:


> That is that their decision to do this, in this fashion, at this time, will not do well in the court of public opinion, and recent events have weighed this out.


Manipulation of the media, and media manipulation of the marketplace, are nothing new. Public opinion is, first of all, utterly unpredictable, and second, only prevails for the public's attention span (i.e., short). These caps/metering will come back when the public is whining about something else, and at that time actual market forces will prevail, i.e., offer and acceptance, supply and demand.



szurlo said:


> People perceive this to be an underhanded way of generating more revenue.


Just like people objected to having to pay for snacks on aircraft, having to pay for cable boxes or CableCARDs, etc. There are hundreds of examples of where emotion delayed implementation of a natural market progression.



szurlo said:


> I have yet to speak to anyone that WANTS metered internet access.


I have yet to speak to anyone that wants such small seats on airplanes, ... that wants gasoline to cost so much, ... oh, and that wants sewer charges to be based on usage. What people *SAY* they want is completely and totally without importance. All that matters is people's purchasing behaviors -- what they actually do. Talk is cheap.


----------



## szurlo

bicker said:


> DeBeers, practically single-handedly, created a market for diamonds, a market that they are still the dominant beneficiary. iPod, in a way, has done the same thing


We need oil. We don't need diamonds (except for industrial applications) and if you don't like Apples business model there are hundreds of portable audio alternatives. I used OPEC because they have us by the short hairs. Apple and DeBeers do not.


bicker said:


> I also don't let my personal preferences about how I would like things to be to cloud my understanding of how things really are.


I would hope that most service industry business *would* take our personal preferences into account when making business decisions..


bicker said:


> Public opinion is, first of all, utterly unpredictable


Seems like in this instance, public opinion was pretty predictable. TWC had to know this would not go over well.


bicker said:


> These caps/metering will come back when the public is whining about something else


I'm not sure what would have changed from the public's perspective that would make this any easier to swallow than it is now. 


bicker said:


> Just like people objected to having to pay for snacks on aircraft, having to pay for cable boxes or CableCARDs, etc.


These are all things you can simply elect not to buy/rent/etc. HSI is more closely comparable to power or phone service now. For many people, such as myself, I pretty much have to have it. Of course, I DON'T need to stream Netflix movies, and that may stop for me and many others if we have to have metered service. I'm sure NetFlix is thrilled.


bicker said:


> All that matters is people's purchasing behaviors -- what they actually do. Talk is cheap.


This assumes that people are given options and pick options that differ from what they say they would do. Not sure how this is valid if the consumer has only one purchase choice. Unless you are suggesting that HSIs will probably offer metered AND maintain their existing flat rate plans.

Anyway, I'll let this die here. Didn't intend to hi-jack the thread. Just wanted to express the relief that I know many of you Netflix stream viewers share with TWCs decision to back-burner this for now.


----------



## bicker

szurlo said:


> We need oil. We don't need diamonds


We don't need television delivered over high-speed Internet.



szurlo said:


> I used OPEC because they have us by the short hairs. Apple and DeBeers do not.


Nor do HSI service providers. You can get your video entertainment via DVD purchase from literally hundreds if not thousands of retailers; via DVD rental from Netflix, Blockbuster, and dozens of smaller B&M outlets; via cable television; via satellite television; via OTA; etc.



szurlo said:


> I would hope that most service industry business *would* take our personal preferences into account when making business decisions..


"He who has never hoped can never despair." The reality is that they should not take personal preferences into account, but rather should only take personal behaviors into account. After all, what is a preference? Is it what you claim you prefer, or is it what you actually prefer, as evidenced by what you actually do?



szurlo said:


> Seems like in this instance, public opinion was pretty predictable.


And the lack of public opinion on the cases I outline was predictable? Bull. There a many cases where manipulation drives a blow-up, and many cases where it does not.



szurlo said:


> I'm not sure what would have changed from the public's perspective that would make this any easier to swallow than it is now.


Change is not necessary; only for the public to be manipulated into focusing on something else. The ideal time (from TWC's perspective) to introduce this would have been if there was a big abortion-related blow-up during the Presidential campaign.

Remember, the general public is completely fickle.



szurlo said:


> These are all things you can simply elect not to buy/rent/etc. HSI is more closely comparable to power or phone service now.


We're not talking about taking HSI away. We're talking about capping it. We're doing fine with the current level of consumption, so you cannot make a legitimate argument that more than that is essential, since we're not using that much now.



szurlo said:


> For many people, such as myself, I pretty much have to have it. Of course, I DON'T need to stream Netflix movies...


QED.


----------



## ffujita

Recently, my Series 3 TiVo has begun to *never* properly start to stream -- sometimes the Video is all black, sometimes the audio is completely silent. In either case, a short rewind, rebuffer will usually fix the problem. 

On the Other hand, some shows seem to never work (maybe I'm being pointed to the wrong file?) the video runs in fast forward, then a pause to rebuffer, then ff, then rebuffer -- without end.

Is this all a Netflix issue or a TiVo issue. I have a Roku box that never has these problems.


----------



## morac

It's a combination TiVo S3 and Netflix encoding issue. The S3 can't properly decode some streams that Netflix uses even though the HD and XL can. This is most likely because the S3's decoder chip is different than the HD/XL's.

Whether or not this can be fixed by TiVo or whether or not Netflix will re-encode to handle S3 specific problems is anyone's guess. Based on the fact that a number of programs that I've reported as "bad" on my S3 have never been fixed, I'm guessing S3 users are just SOL.


----------



## Bob Lee

My Tivo HD seems a bit less reliable than my Roku box as well. I've seen instances where it will not use an HD stream even though it's available for that title and the Roku uses it just fine. I've also seen an instance or two where the Tivo can't play a stream or abruptly stops in the middle of one...again, if I switch to the Roku it doesn't appear to have any of these problems.


----------



## nolanski

Bob Lee said:


> My Tivo HD seems a bit less reliable than my Roku box as well. I've seen instances where it will not use an HD stream even though it's available for that title and the Roku uses it just fine. I've also seen an instance or two where the Tivo can't play a stream or abruptly stops in the middle of one...again, if I switch to the Roku it doesn't appear to have any of these problems.


Same issues here...sometimes it just reverts to live TV right in the middle of watching streaming.


----------



## bluebledthesea

I'm sorry, I've tried searching and reading through these threads but they're just so long without enough pertinent information to my problem or any solutions. I have a Tivo HD connected by HDMI to a Samsung A650 with Netflix and I'm getting out of sync audio. It lags by .5 second to 2 seconds. I'm having a tough time pinpointing what people think the issue is. Is it because I'm using a wireless network connection? Should I be using an optical/toslink audio connection to my receiver? Is it just certain films/shows that do this? I just can't find anything definitive and the conversation goes back 6 months. 

I could waste all night trying to troubleshoot and not watch a second of film and I was hoping to find some sort of solution by now.


----------



## mikeyts

bluebledthesea said:


> I'm sorry, I've tried searching and reading through these threads but they're just so long without enough pertinent information to my problem or any solutions. I have a Tivo HD connected by HDMI to a Samsung A650 with Netflix and I'm getting out of sync audio. It lags by .5 second to 2 seconds. I'm having a tough time pinpointing what people think the issue is. Is it because I'm using a wireless network connection? Should I be using an optical/toslink audio connection to my receiver? Is it just certain films/shows that do this? I just can't find anything definitive and the conversation goes back 6 months.


I searched the thread for "sync" and found hits in 34 posts. I examined a few and it seems that the people who experience audio sync problems only saw them occasionally, and when they briefly rewound the stream the problem went away. You should try that.

Have you tried watching more than one stream? If so, did you have audio sync issues with all of them?


----------



## gonzotek

mikeyts said:


> I searched the thread for "sync" and found hits in 34 posts. I examined a few and it seems that the people who experience audio sync problems only saw them occasionally, and when they briefly rewound the stream the problem went away. You should try that.
> 
> Have you tried watching more than one stream? If so, did you have audio sync issues with all of them?


Some streams exhibit constant out-of-sync behavior, and re-buffering doesn't fix this. Most recently I tried to watch So I Married an Axe Murderer. It played at 'best' quality, but was unwatchable due to the sync being so far off on the TiVo. The silverlight client didn't exhibit the problem with the same quality stream on my laptop. Netflix now has a Report Problem link for everything you watch, at the top of the WI queue. Sync issues are reportable via a checkbox on the problem form. I've been reporting everything I come across that has sync issues, whether constant or intermittantly encountered. Some material doesn't exhibit the problem at all, so I believe the root of the problem is mostly about the encoding parameters and not the TiVo hardware/software(although the different chips in the S3 and HD/XL units do make a difference).


----------



## BarryD99

I've experienced the sync problem in about 20&#37; of what I've attempted to watch. In every case, after I reported the problem, It appeared to be corrected by the next day, normally sooner. It's a pain.


----------



## morac

gonzotek said:


> Some material doesn't exhibit the problem at all, so I believe the root of the problem is mostly about the encoding parameters and not the TiVo hardware/software(although the different chips in the S3 and HD/XL units do make a difference).


If all videos were encoded the same way I would agree this wouldn't be an issue, unfortunately that is not the case. As if the HD/XL units have a better chance at successful playback than the S3 unit, but like you said some streams won't play on any unit.


----------



## JunkMel

ffujita said:


> Recently, my Series 3 TiVo has begun to *never* properly start to stream -- sometimes the Video is all black, sometimes the audio is completely silent. In either case, a short rewind, rebuffer will usually fix the problem.
> 
> On the Other hand, some shows seem to never work (maybe I'm being pointed to the wrong file?) the video runs in fast forward, then a pause to rebuffer, then ff, then rebuffer -- without end.
> 
> Is this all a Netflix issue or a TiVo issue. I have a Roku box that never has these problems.


I had a similar problem with Netflix on the S3 and samsung lcd--no video and no audio, but progress bar works and fast forward works. The S3 video output was set to "Native" using HDMI from S3 to TV. Changing the S3 video output to "hybrid" or "720p fixed" and the video and audio works. I have S3 also connected via components to another samsung in different room--and no video/no audio while Netflix works with first TV over HDMI.

Going to try A/V from S3 to TV and see if Netflix works on second TV.


----------



## JunkMel

Old Samsung digital ready LCD not ready for netflix on S3 using component or a/v cables. Using Hdmi and video output at "hybrid" or "720 fixed" works.

2009 Samsung LCD using hdmi or components works, but not with video output at "native".


----------



## ewilts

I just signed up for Netflix in the hope that I could replace Comcast Digital cable but so far I'm not impressed. I don't know if it's the TiVo Series 3 or Netflix, but streaming is pretty bad.

During the day today, my wife reporting an "error communicating with Netflix server" message. This evening, I tried watching a different movie. First, it was several minutes bringing up the queue so we gave up and watched something else and tried again an hour later and started watch a movie in my queue. 7 or 10 minutes in, I got an "error communicating with Netflix server" message, and I had to start *from the beginning*. Starting from the beginning, it started off okay again but I didn't watch for very long to how good or bad the streaming functionality is.

Is this service always this bad? If it is, why do people bother?

I'm on Comcast cable internet and speedtest just reported a download speed of 20Mbps (obviously Powerboost'ed). My S3 is connected via Powerline Ethernet that should be able to sustain 30Mbps (even though it's rated for 85Mbps). I don't know where Netflix hosts their streaming, so I set my speedtest server to San Francisco and still got over 13Mbps download. I never saw a download speed of under 4.4 Mbps and testing against Chicago saw a burst of 26.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
.../Ed


----------



## GadgetVirtuoso

When I've reported movies to Netflix, the CSRs aren't at all surprised. They've told me to try again in a week or two.


----------



## pl1

ewilts said:


> Is this service always this bad? If it is, why do people bother?


For some feedback, I have Comcast Cable and I've used Netflix HD streaming quite a few times and so far I've never experianced a single glitch. It works perfectly for me, in full HD when the movie is in HD. The most I've ever seen was when TiVo started a new recording, I was kicked off of the streaming. But, when I went back to it, it retained the place I left. Personally, I think it works great. Now, if they could just put some good movies on it, it would be most excellent.


----------



## Videodrome

It depends, usually 85&#37; of the time, netflix is fine , zero issues, the other 10% is either rough starts, or any type of glich. Now the last 5% is that its completely unwatchable. Regardless of what show you pick.


----------



## ewilts

After my initial rough day, Netflix streaming has been decent for the weekend. Better than the cracked DVD they sent in the mail


----------



## crusin_x1

I&#8217;ve been using Netflix occasionally since it was introduced to the Tivo. However I wasn't aware of the lockup issue with Netflix until it started happening to me recently. I&#8217;ve had some quality issues but never lockups. 

It may have something to do with 11c version of the firmware, I think this was a fairly recent update but I don't recall exactly when it updated to that version. 

I have a S3, V: 11.0c-01-2-652. it&#8217;s connected via the Tivo wireless adapter.


----------



## kika2000

I've been using a Roku box for Netflix longer than I've had my TivoHD, and I've found there are two different issues with the service.

Netflix openly acknowledges that they have random encoding issues which cause the sync problem. They ask that you use the report problem link (or you can call customer service), and I've found that every episode or movie that I've reported a problem with, they've fixed fairly quickly.

In my case, I think the streaming issue has to do with the Tivo wireless adapter. 
I've got my Roku box hooked up to the same TV, accessing the same wireless network and I have no problems with it. I do find that accessing Netflix through the Tivo is painfully slow and I've had problems retaining a signal fast enough to allow an entire show to stream.

My wireless network is super-slow, so I'm not attributing all the problems to Tivo, but I've had a much better experience with Netflix Instant Watch using other modes of access.


----------



## jeni18

I started to watch "The IT Crowd" today and my TiVo rebooted all on its own. Up until now I haven't had any technical issues such as this with the Netflix streaming, only intermittent pauses while the system is "Retrieving". I know in the past people had issues with Netflix killing their TiVo; is this a sign that I shouldn't continue? 

I know this problem (or similar) was raised several months ago, but since there aren't any recent issues reported about this I posted a new message about it.

Thanks for any help.

Jen

ETA: I have an HD XL, purchased in January 09.


----------



## gweempose

FWIW, my units reboot quite often when using Netflix. It generally doesn't happen while I'm watching something, but as soon as I try to back out of the stream, it crashes. The app is buggy, it's a fact.


----------



## DebInNJ

Had been using Netflix on two S3's for quite awhile without problems.

Then when quit watching Netflix movie, S3 menus slowed and eventually 
S3 locked up and had to reboot. Then started random reboots even when
I wasn't watching Netflix. 

Went through all the tech troubleshooting and they determined I needed a new box. So paid $150 for refurbished box and that worked for two weeks until that one was completely trashed. Wouldn't even reboot. So they sent another box. 

I started reading about these Netflix problems and then my second S3 had
the problem where no audio or video but progress bar and fastforward work.

I thought I was going to lose that machine as well.

I had not sent in my original S3 yet since I was transferring show off of it when I decided to hook that one up and deactivate the Netflix. Sure enough
the S3 went back to working fine. 

So I have decided to leave Netflix off my S3's until they fix this.


----------



## rosalita518

We were happy when we got the HD Tivo/Netflix thing going, but consistently and regularly the movie freezes up & the system goes to gray screen. The remote becomes inoperable and only rebooting the Tivo restores the system.

This is a huge problem. We were unable to watch The Killing Fields after the first 30 minutes, the final scene of Wendy & Lucy went to gray, and rebooting and trying to go back to the video takes too much time.

I love being able to download what Netflix has but the aggravation isn't worth it. I'm considering cancelling my Netflix $8.99 subscription.

Amazon's VOD works fine but NF is the worst. I'm surprised at Tivo for partnering with a company that doesn't have it together the way Tivo does.

Any word on whether NF/Tivo is working on a fix for this problem? I didn't think I was the only one experiencing it as I can see from this forum.


----------



## szurlo

rosalita518 said:


> We were happy when we got the HD Tivo/Netflix thing going, but consistently and regularly the movie freezes up & the system goes to gray screen. The remote becomes inoperable and only rebooting the Tivo restores the system.
> 
> This is a huge problem. We were unable to watch The Killing Fields after the first 30 minutes, the final scene of Wendy & Lucy went to gray, and rebooting and trying to go back to the video takes too much time.
> 
> I love being able to download what Netflix has but the aggravation isn't worth it. I'm considering cancelling my Netflix $8.99 subscription.
> 
> Amazon's VOD works fine but NF is the worst. I'm surprised at Tivo for partnering with a company that doesn't have it together the way Tivo does.
> 
> Any word on whether NF/Tivo is working on a fix for this problem? I didn't think I was the only one experiencing it as I can see from this forum.


I have an HD and have never had a lock-up while streaming Netflix. We watched Wall-E last night with absolutely no issues, even after pausing a number of times to answer the phone etc. I know the consensus is that the S3 model seems to have a much bigger issue then the HD model, but you said you have an HD, so not sure in your case. Just a note on the Amazon VOD. That service is not streaming. You download the entire movie to the Tivo and then watch it from the local disk. NetFlix streams the movie in real time to the Tivo. As a result, Amazon VOD isn't affected by bandwidth issues (other than effecting how long it takes before the movie is available to view). Many folks have found that their streaming issue were attributed to things like slow wi-fi connections to the Tivo and other local LAN related problems. My Tivo is cabled to my LAN and my broadband is 10mbs downstream.


----------



## mikeyts

szurlo said:


> Just a note on the Amazon VOD. That service is not streaming. You download the entire movie to the Tivo and then watch it from the local disk. NetFlix streams the movie in real time to the Tivo. As a result, Amazon VOD isn't affected by bandwidth issues (other than effecting how long it takes before the movie is available to view).


Small nit--Amazon VOD _does_ stream--it just doesn't stream to TiVo. It works with the Roku box and Sony's Bravia and Panasonic's Viera series of connected televisions, none of which have HDDs.

I'm slightly surprised they haven't created an "instant play" Amazon VOD streaming app for TiVo, but given the problems TiVo's had with Netflix streaming, maybe I shouldn't be . I do agree with you that Netflix on the Series3 has an undeserved bad rep and, other than not being able to handle some encodings that the HD can (something Netflix can certainly address), I'm unaware of any deficiencies in streaming from Netflix that they don't share. I've watched more than one hundred Netflix streams and it's been largely a trouble-free experience (except for a few of those aforementioned encodings).


----------



## rosalita518

thanks. i'm 20mps down with my broadband. i know amazon's delivery method is different, which is why we're not having problems. that's why i'm thinking it's a wifi hiccup, but still. netflix is highly annoying.


----------



## szurlo

mikeyts said:


> Small nit--Amazon VOD _does_ stream--it just doesn't stream to TiVo. It works with the Roku box and Sony's Bravia and Panasonic's Viera series of connected televisions, none of which have HDDs.


I know. I just wanted to make sure that the OP understood that in the context of his/her issue as it pertains to the Tivo, Amazon did not stream, and therefore comparing the two wasn't really apples to apples.


----------



## szurlo

rosalita518 said:


> thanks. i'm 20mps down with my broadband. i know amazon's delivery method is different, which is why we're not having problems. that's why i'm thinking it's a wifi hiccup, but still. netflix is highly annoying.


Yeah, I have not had the lockups etc, but I am blessed with the HDMI audio issue that only happens during NetFlix playback from Tivo and only affects certain brands of TV (mine being one of them). It's always something


----------



## dphilippine

We have been trying to watch Dexter and so far it froze on every episode we watched, with the only option to reboot TIVO. I have an S3 and broadband connection, no wifi.
This is frustrating, I have watched entire movies on Netflix since the service started and this problem seems to have started very recently.


----------



## bennard

I just moved from Louisiana to Arkansas, and am trying to get everything settled. Of course, getting the TiVo working is a top priority. So, I've got everything set up now, but I'm having a lot of difficulty when trying to watch Netflix movies on the DVR. Sometimes a video will play for about 5 minutes, then I get dropped back to Live TV randomly. Sometimes videos will play for 5-10 minutes before I get a hard lockup and require a reboot. 

Prior to moving, I had absolutely no trouble with streaming video to the TiVo. The only difference between here and there is the internet service (ATT DSL vs. Cox cable) and that I'm having to use a wireless bridge to get network access instead of a direct connection to the router.

Any ideas?


----------



## morac

bennard said:


> Prior to moving, I had absolutely no trouble with streaming video to the TiVo. The only difference between here and there is the internet service (ATT DSL vs. Cox cable) and that I'm having to use a wireless bridge to get network access instead of a direct connection to the router.
> 
> Any ideas?


Either of those two things can cause a problem. If your ISP is having issues (which one are you using now?) or if your wireless connection is less than ideal, it will cause drop outs (which can cause lockups).


----------



## Bwangster12

Are we ever going to get the ability to add movies to our Instant Queues right from the Tivo unit? Like they have just done for Xbox 360? Only knock I see on it so far is the fact I have to add movies on the PC first.


----------



## mikeyts

Bwangster12 said:


> Are we ever going to get the ability to add movies to our Instant Queues right from the Tivo unit? Like they have just done for Xbox 360? Only knock I see on it so far is the fact I have to add movies on the PC first.


Who knows? But as you pointed out, they are adding it to the 360 and the ability to browse films at Amazon is much stronger now than when they started.


----------



## hyvonen

ewilts said:


> During the day today, my wife reporting an "error communicating with Netflix server" message. This evening, I tried watching a different movie. First, it was several minutes bringing up the queue so we gave up and watched something else and tried again an hour later and started watch a movie in my queue. 7 or 10 minutes in, I got an "error communicating with Netflix server" message, and I had to start *from the beginning*. Starting from the beginning, it started off okay again but I didn't watch for very long to how good or bad the streaming functionality is.
> 
> Is this service always this bad? If it is, why do people bother?


Yeah, I started getting this "error communicating with Netflix server" message lately (1-2 weeks ago). It's singlehandedly pushing me to cancel my Netflix which I'm keeping for the sole purpose of streaming to Tivo.

Why people bother? Well, at least for me, the streaming worked beautifully, with little problems even in HD. 1-2 weeks ago, Tivo rebooted (probably an update), and after that the problems started.

This happens to me only on HD streams... when I start playing, the streaming service first buffers the stream and tries to figure out the download speed. Before that Tivo update, it would always max out the speed bar and highlight the "HD" symbol. Now, it stars somewhere at 3/4 of the bar, waits, flashes a full bar and "HD" symbol, and immediately quits with the "error communicating with Netflix server". Trying the same exact movie/tvshow again usually gives the same result, but sometimes it doesn't flash the HD symbol, and the stream works fine (although in low definition now).

Last night I was able to stream "Phoebe in Wonderland" in HD, though, so not all my HD streaming is gone (just 95% of it...). But trying NCIS or Weeds kept giving me this error.

Regarding my internet, I have comcast, get >50Mbps most of the time (haven't seen it below 25Mbps), and Tivo is connected to the router using 100Mbps ethernet. I have never had Tivo reboots; I think this must be related to the internet connection... reboots only when connection lost "at a bad time" (=when streaming). Switching between Netflix Instant Queue pages is also instantaneous (I've seen other people with wireless and bad internet take forever to go through pages... must be again related to the internet speed).

Some (conspiracy) theries:

1) Netflix servers have been overloaded with streaming customers during the summer (nothing on TV ), and they have only a finite number of HD streams "available" to Tivo users. If your internet speed is fast enough for HD, Tivo tries, but gets rejected by Netflix server. Result: no way to watch the show.

2) Tivo update broke the ethernet port driver, killing the connection speed. I doubt that's the reason, though, because sometimes I can get the HD stream to work.

3) Either Netflix updates or Tivo updates screwed up the handshaking of the streams at highest speeds, and now they only work if you're really lucky, regardless of the connection speed to the server.

My guess is that it's #1, but what do I know... In any case, this sucks. Please fix!!


----------



## hyvonen

hyvonen said:


> 1) Netflix servers have been overloaded with streaming customers during the summer (nothing on TV ), and they have only a finite number of HD streams "available" to Tivo users. If your internet speed is fast enough for HD, Tivo tries, but gets rejected by Netflix server. Result: no way to watch the show.


Forgot to mention in my rant that, as a stop-gap measure, it would be great if Tivo would add a temporary feature that when this error would occur, Tivo would automatically try again once or twice while forcing the speed to be lower than what the speed test indicates is possible. Maybe this would get around any Netflix capacity issues, and at least enable us to watch the streams instead of banging our heads against the "error communicating" wall.

I do expect this issue to be fully resolved in the future, but while waiting, I'd really like to watch something at _some_ resolution.


----------



## jonbrenner

hyvonen said:


> 2) Tivo update broke the ethernet port driver, killing the connection speed. I doubt that's the reason, though, because sometimes I can get the HD stream to work.


I think you may be onto something there. My packet captures show constant TCP errors when my TivoHD is talking to the netflix media servers. Segments lost, out of order, duplicate acknowledgements, retransmissions, etc. When I connect my mac to the same ethernet cable and watch the same movie using netflix's silverlight viewer, the tcp flow is clean and there are no problems.

Either the media servers are formatting the media differently for the players and causing upstream errors in some cases or it's a problem with the Tivo. Taking into account Tivo's not-exactly-bug-free history, I'm inclined to believe the latter.

For the record, here's my configuration.

ATT UVerse 25/2 (bellsouth cloud) > 2wire 3800hgv-b > airport extreme > tivohd 
All ethernet.


----------



## wmcbrine

jonbrenner said:


> Either the media servers are formatting the media differently for the players and causing upstream errors in some cases or it's a problem with the Tivo. Taking into account Tivo's not-exactly-bug-free history, I'm inclined to believe the latter.


Actually, the former is known to be true. Not that this necessarily explains the TCP errors.


----------



## hyvonen

jonbrenner said:


> I think you may be onto something there. My packet captures show constant TCP errors when my TivoHD is talking to the netflix media servers. Segments lost, out of order, duplicate acknowledgements, retransmissions, etc. When I connect my mac to the same ethernet cable and watch the same movie using netflix's silverlight viewer, the tcp flow is clean and there are no problems.
> 
> Either the media servers are formatting the media differently for the players and causing upstream errors in some cases or it's a problem with the Tivo. Taking into account Tivo's not-exactly-bug-free history, I'm inclined to believe the latter.


Interesting... I read it somewhere else in this thread (first page?) that different set of media files are used for Netflix; PCs, 360's etc. get the "other set". Oh and you're right, I don't seem to have any problems viewing the movies/shows on PC, just on Tivo.

But maybe this is a problem with Tivo. I wonder if they tried to fix all the other screw-ups (freezes, reboots), and broke this? I wish quality control was better, so things would get tested before updates are released...

Please fix fix fix!!

EDIT: Checking the first page, "original PC client", 360 and Roku has one set of media files, while PC silverlight & Tivo has another.


----------



## Resist

I think I am going to cancel Netflix, I can't take all the freezing it does with my Series 3 Tivo. Tonight it got me so pissed off midway in my movie and it froze, unable to do anything but shut off my TV. I have had enough of this Tivo/Netflix deal, it doesn't work!


----------



## oViTynoT

First, a few technical details.

The media servers don't "reformat" the stream differently, per se. They do that ONCE when they transcode the media file. When TiVo requests a stream, NetFlix just streams out a different file; no transcoding on the fly.

It's doubtful there's a finite number of "HD Streams" available per movie. There's a finite amount of BANDWIDTH available to deliver content, but that's a different issue.

A properly designed Content Delivery Network load-shares streams to all available file server "heads," and it's likely their heads can support anywhere from 6-10Gbps per head.

At least, that's what I see in MY business, and we're not using our file servers for content delivery.

I have no idea how much bandwidth NetFlix has into their CDN; I'd love to know!

So, all that being said, I DO think NetFlix was having issues last night (7/13/2009); NetFlix was worse than I've EVER seen it.

4-5 hangs (that cleared themselves after about 2-3 minutes of waiting) and one reboot.

I don't think it was a congestion issue, because I was receiving Highest Quality on everything I tried to watch, but still...


----------



## morac

The TiVo is not going to cause lost or out of order segments. Both of those would be caused by server or routing problems.

Netflix uses LimeLight and Akamai CDNs for streaming. I've been told they default to Limelight, but that the Silverlight application can detect problems streaming from the servers and switch over to Akamai on the fly. That could be why you see no problems with SilverLight, but do see problems on the TiVo.

Personally I've been seeing problems with Limelight servers recently. They haven't been up to speed, normally ranging between 2 to 4 mbps, but sometimes going as low as 400 kbps. This affects Amazon (on TiVo and PC), free TiVoCast downloads and Netflix on the TiVo as well as video downloads on PS3. Netflix on the PC works because that seems to be using Akamai.

Akamai on the other hand is extremely fast and maxes out my 12 mbps connection. That's probably because Akamai's servers are hosted by Comcast (which I have). Limelight's servers are hosted by Global Crossing (at least via Comcast). I'm currently having Comcast look into what I think are problems with Limelight's servers.


----------



## jonbrenner

morac said:


> The TiVo is not going to cause lost or out of order segments. Both of those would be caused by server or routing problems.


I'm definitely no router jock. I recognize that the OOO segments result from upstream hiccups, but I still can't explain why there are so many more problems with seemingly identical routes.



morac said:


> Netflix uses LimeLight and Akamai CDNs for streaming. I've been told they default to Limelight, but that the Silverlight application can detect problems streaming from the servers and switch over to Akamai on the fly. That could be why you see no problems with SilverLight, but do see problems on the TiVo.


I'm not looking at the packet capture at the moment, but I'm almost certain that they both connected to the same LimeLight server. I'll verify when I get home from work.


----------



## oViTynoT

Out-of-order segments are almost ALWAYS network INDUCED, but 90% of the time, they are CAUSED by how the endpoints deal with the issue.

I say ALMOST, because if EITHER endpoint miss a packet, the results are the same, thus TiVo COULD be responsible for an out of order segment.

Out of order segments are almost always a result of a lost segment. System A acknowledges all the way up to the last segment it received, then there's a missing segment, and then a bunch more arrive. System A can't send ACK's for the latter group (well, it can, but the ACK# can't change; the ACK# must remain the segment it received before the missing one.)

Packet Capture software will usually flag that as a DUPLICATE ACK; that's NEVER an error even though they're flagged as such. SOME TCP stacks will INTERPRET a DUPLICATE ACK as an implied flag of the loss of the subsequent segment, but most that I know of don't... When they receive that duplicate ACK they'll immediately retransmit the following segment (if such segment existed). If they don't, they have to wait until the ACK timer expires.

When System B detects a timeout, then it can retransmit the missing segment, System A can ACK THAT segment, and THEN acknowledge all the other ones it received in a single packet.

System B then would be seen as sending out of order segments.

This could have happened if:


...the segment was not transmitted by B because of a Transmit Buffer Overflow.
...the network dropped the packet.
...System A couldn't receive the segment because of a RECEIVE buffer overflow.
...System A couldn't send an ACK because of a transmit buffer overflow.
...System B couldn't RECEIVE the ACK because of a receive buffer overflow.
...And less likely, but still possible, the segment did IN FACT arrive out of order because of a topology change within the routed network. 

THAT is not a problem in and of itself; that's the way TCP was designed to operate.

It only becomes a "problem" if the Video Buffer was too small. Since a Re-Transmit induces a large amount of "Jitter." If the buffer is drained before the missing segment arrives, it's too late to do anything with it, and higher layer protocols have to deal with that.


----------



## mikeyts

oViTynoT said:


> It only becomes a "problem" if the Video Buffer was too small. Since a Re-Transmit induces a large amount of "Jitter." If the buffer is drained before the missing segment arrives, it's too late to do anything with it, and higher layer protocols have to deal with that.


I'd expect the use of multi-buffering and a protocol which requests buffer-sized video chunks. All of that out-of-order packet stuff is encapsulated at the driver level--the application would be unaware of it.


----------



## jbrady3324

Has the "no audio" issue been resolved? I just signed up for Netflix to use through my TIVO. First episode of The Office worked flawlessly. Next episode I tried to watch, had no sound at all. Now everything I try to watch through Netflix has no sound.

Tivo->HDMI->Receiver->Speakers

This really sucks.


----------



## morac

oViTynoT said:


> If the buffer is drained before the missing segment arrives, it's too late to do anything with it, and higher layer protocols have to deal with that.


In the case of the TiVo hardware, if this situation occurs the box has a very good chance of simply locking up when dealing with H.264 and VC-1 video.


----------



## cogx

I've rarely used my Netflix streaming, even though I have a TiVo S3 and an Xbox 360 (and bought a Roku when it first came out, but never used it, so I let a friend borrow it indefinitely). I did watch my second Netflix streamed movie through the S3 last weekend and it worked fine, although a couple months ago I tried to watch a movie and it never did work properly, but I didn't care that much about watching that movie anyway. 
However, last night (7/19), I tried to watch an HD TV show through the S3 and it just wouldn't work, it just couldn't figure itself out, as I tried it three separate times from the beginning. I then tried to play the same show through through the Xbox 360 and it started to play fine, but then about a minute into it the system dropped back to a screen that said my Internet speed had dropped and it was adjusting quality. When it started to play again, it still looked ok to me and it never did drop out again after that, so whatever adjustments Microsoft's software made, it was able to compensate with what I assume was a lot of cable modem activity in my neighborhood on a Sunday night.

Both my S3 and 360 run ethernet through a switch that runs ethernet to my router (in other words, I'm *not* using WiFi), so they are on equal footing. Unfortunately, I just hate watching movies through the 360, because of that system's fan noise. However, it doesn't appear that I can trust my TiVo S3 to do Netflix streaming properly at any given time, whereas the 360 appears to be able to get the job done. I'd just much rather have it work with my TiVo instead.


----------



## danjw1

I was watching the first few episodes of The Hunger: Season 1, this weekend and noticed that the audio was out of sync with the video for the three that I watched. My internet provider is Comcast Cable. I haven't seen this with other shows I have watched.


----------



## hyvonen

So, any suggestions what I could do with the "error communicating with Netflix" issue? 

Quick repeat: about 95&#37; of the time when I try to stream HD shows from Netflix, the quality indicator starts at 10 bars, flashes 13 bars + HD for a brief moment, and fails with a message "error communicating with Netflix".

* My TivoHD is ethernet-connected to a very high-speed Comcast network (through a router).
* I have re-activated the Tivo with Netflix several times - no help.
* I've tried several different streams; this seems to happen only with HD shows.
* This started happening about 3 (?) weeks ago (after a TivoHD update); before that, all streams (including HD streams) worked beautifully.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## proudx

can something be done code wise to prevent the tivo from freezing and rebooting when it gets a bad stream or loses internet connection to just drop back to tivo menu? 


Seems like this issue has gone on for 7 months


----------



## morac

proudx said:


> can something be done code wise to prevent the tivo from freezing and rebooting when it gets a bad stream or loses internet connection to just drop back to tivo menu?


Since it hasn't been fixed yet, I'm guessing that it's a hardware or low level driver issue, in which case the answer would be no.

It would be nice to be wrong though.


----------



## bowlingblogger

Yesterday my fiancee and I had been watching Season 3 of the Office in HD for several hours on our TivoHD (connected to internet through ethernet), and when we got to Episode 16 we got the "communicating with Netflix" error, then the "Please wait" icon with the clock. It seemed frozen but we decided not to reboot because something was being recorded. After about 5 or 6 minutes it finally unfroze and went back to normal. I'm not sure what happened, but it sure was annoying. I have had the communication error before, but this is the first time it's ever froze. I hope it's a driver and they fix it soon!


----------



## DaFury

Hey guys, I just got my HD XL hooked up on Tuesday. Everything has been great...except that I have been having a terrible time with the Netflix function. I've only gotten it to work a hand full of times. I tried for about 15 minutes straight last night, but couldn't get a single video to stream.

I understand from earlier posts that this is a recent development...but I'm still pretty miffed about it. I've had Netflix for far longer than TiVo...and I never had any issues at all streaming Netflix with my little Roku player. I understand that Roku was designed primarily for Netflix...but when I replace a $100 component with a $450 (plus fees) component that is advertised as providing that same capability...I expect it to work! 

I realize this is more of a rant than anything else...but is there any forthcoming fix for this??


----------



## mikeyts

DaFury said:


> I realize this is more of a rant than anything else...but is there any forthcoming fix for this??


What's "this"? Maybe there's something that you're doing slightly wrong (and maybe not). Describe what happens when it doesn't work and how you have things hooked up (wireless or wired, nominal service speed, etc).

The service pretty much always works for some of us. Believe me, many bugs have been fixed since they launched at the beginning of the year.


----------



## DaFury

mikeyts said:


> What's "this"? Maybe there's something that you're doing slightly wrong (and maybe not). Describe what happens when it doesn't work and how you have things hooked up (wireless or wired, nominal service speed, etc).
> 
> The service pretty much always works for some of us. Believe me, many bugs have been fixed since they launched at the beginning of the year.


What happens is when I select the movie to play, it does one of two things:

1. The "speed indicator" shows about 3/4 to the fastest...and then completely fills with the "HD" indicator on. It then immediately goes to the "error communicating with Netflix" screen.

2. Same as above, except it doesn't immedately go to the error screen. Instead, it appears to be buffering for a few seconds, and then gives me the error.

I don't see how I could be doing anything different. I also don't see how this could be a network issue on my end...as this exact same network setup has worked flawlessly with my Roku for several months. I literally unplugged the Cat5 from my Roku and plugged it into the back of the TiVo.


----------



## szurlo

DaFury said:


> What happens is when I select the movie to play, it does one of two things:
> 
> 1. The "speed indicator" shows about 3/4 to the fastest...and then completely fills with the "HD" indicator on. It then immediately goes to the "error communicating with Netflix" screen.
> 
> 2. Same as above, except it doesn't immedately go to the error screen. Instead, it appears to be buffering for a few seconds, and then gives me the error.
> 
> I don't see how I could be doing anything different. I also don't see how this could be a network issue on my end...as this exact same network setup has worked flawlessly with my Roku for several months. I literally unplugged the Cat5 from my Roku and plugged it into the back of the TiVo.


I've suddenly started having the same issues. Has worked fine since December of last year until about 2 weeks ago. Also, I get that error often now when I try to remove a movie from the queue.


----------



## cogx

proudx said:


> can something be done code wise to prevent the tivo from freezing and rebooting when it gets a bad stream or loses internet connection to just drop back to tivo menu? Seems like this issue has gone on for 7 months


Sure it can. The Xbox 360 Netflix streaming implementation is able to compensate for bandwidth fluctuations that us folks with cable models sometimes experience. When I was unable to play an HD TV show with my S3, I was able to play it back on my Xbox 360. Both devices are running ethernet through the same router, so the problem was with TiVo's code. In fact, one of the bullet points for the upcoming Xbox 360 software update is even better Netflix streaming code to handle pesky bandwidth issues. Of course, I hate the 360's fan noise and the annoying green light emanating from the front, so I would _much_ prefer to use my S3 for Netflix streaming.

TiVo might also eventually get there, it just depends on how much of a priority it is to their developers, if at all.


----------



## rocko

I agree about bandwidth handling. I was downloading a mega-torrent at full throttle the other day and could not watch a Netflix movie on either of my HD units.

I realize that all networks aren't created equal but this was disappointing. I would hope my otherwise stellar FIOS could handle it but I guess not.

99% of the time I have no problem with Netflix but when the network is busy ...


----------



## mikeyts

rocko said:


> I agree about bandwidth handling. I was downloading a mega-torrent at full throttle the other day and could not watch a Netflix movie on either of my HD units.


Whereas I have a preview of the new Xbox 360 dashboard, on which I watched a full HD movie (_Serenity_) without it ever falling out of HD, while doing a multi-GB download at full tilt--the improvement in the Xbox player may be working.

Other improvement to the Xbox player include the ability to browse a portion of Netflix's Instant Watching library, to add and delete titles from the Instant Queue, as well as to play titles directly while browsing the library, without placing them in the queue (the ability to sort the Instant Queue would have been appreciated, but I'll take what I can get ). They've also added an indication of whether a title is HD while browsing through the list and a indicator on the progress bar of what the current connection speed level is (i.e., how many bars, HD or not). It'd be nice if some of those features made it into TiVo as well.


----------



## RoysonG

DaFury said:


> What happens is when I select the movie to play, it does one of two things:
> 
> 1. The "speed indicator" shows about 3/4 to the fastest...and then completely fills with the "HD" indicator on. It then immediately goes to the "error communicating with Netflix" screen.
> 
> 2. Same as above, except it doesn't immedately go to the error screen. Instead, it appears to be buffering for a few seconds, and then gives me the error.
> 
> I don't see how I could be doing anything different. I also don't see how this could be a network issue on my end...as this exact same network setup has worked flawlessly with my Roku for several months. I literally unplugged the Cat5 from my Roku and plugged it into the back of the TiVo.


I'm having this *exact* same issue. On the phone right now with TiVo technical support. 

Royson G.

Update: TiVo says it's not them, it's Netflix. Calling them next.

Update2: Netflix had me de-link and re-link my Netflix account, and so far it has fixed the problem!


----------



## dave13077

DaFury said:


> What happens is when I select the movie to play, it does one of two things:
> 
> 1. The "speed indicator" shows about 3/4 to the fastest...and then completely fills with the "HD" indicator on. It then immediately goes to the "error communicating with Netflix" screen.
> 
> 2. Same as above, except it doesn't immedately go to the error screen. Instead, it appears to be buffering for a few seconds, and then gives me the error.
> 
> I don't see how I could be doing anything different. I also don't see how this could be a network issue on my end...as this exact same network setup has worked flawlessly with my Roku for several months. I literally unplugged the Cat5 from my Roku and plugged it into the back of the TiVo.


Exact same thing happened to me. De-linking and re-linking the Netflix account fixed the issue. This only affected 1 of my 2 HD units.


----------



## dsewell

why anyone would want to partner with netflix ??? what was tivo thinking pull your head out and take a deep breath, tryed to sign up for the service and they took out over 45.00 dollars the movies you have a choice of are old and crap! amazon is new movies and as cheap as $0.99
netflix THEY SUCK DSEWELL


----------



## moyekj

dsewell said:


> why anyone would want to partner with netflix ??? what was tivo thinking pull your head out and take a deep breath, tryed to sign up for the service and they took out over 45.00 dollars the movies you have a choice of are old and crap! amazon is new movies and as cheap as $0.99
> netflix THEY SUCK DSEWELL


 I feel exactly the opposite. I find Netflix an excellent deal which turns out very cheap paying $10/month. In contrast with Amazon you have to pay (too much) per movie and you can't start watching right away, and then there is that stupid expiration once you start watching something... I use Amazon a lot for online shopping, but certainly not for movie/TV episode rentals.


----------



## av_dude

moyekj said:


> I feel exactly the opposite. I find Netflix an excellent deal which turns out very cheap paying $10/month. In contrast with Amazon you have to pay (too much) per movie and you can't start watching right away, and then there is that stupid expiration once you start watching something... I use Amazon a lot for online shopping, but certainly not for movie/TV episode rentals.


+1


----------



## szurlo

av_dude said:


> +1


+1
Plus, with netflix that $10 also gets you one DVD via snail mail at a time. Where I am the transit time to/from Nexflix is over-night. So I can get a recent release new movie on DVD every 3 days, or about 10 a month. So for $10 I get all the old older stuff I want via Tivo plus 10 new releases on DVD a month. Compared to MAYBE a half dozen recent movies at Amazon for that amount of money. Typically the movies I have rented at Amazon have been closer to $4.00 each, so half a dozen is a very generous estimate. Also, Amazon is not streamed to Tivo. Netflix is. If you have a bunch of friends over and decide to rent a move and want to watch it right now, you can forget it with Amazon.


----------



## ffujita

I like *both* Amazon and Netflix -- and it wouldn't bother me if TiVo teamed up with Blockbuster, HBO, or any other companies to provide us with options. If I (you) don't like an option, I don't use it. 

Personally, I wish the Series 3 did a better job of streaming Netflix movies (compared to the Roku box) but ... I still use it occasionally. Amazon is a good option when you just missed a TV episode -- it'll take Netflix a long time to get that on DVD and even longer for streaming.

I'd be willing to purchase an HBO subscription for my TiVo if I could download (not stream) that month's HBO offerings -- maybe for $15/month, also Comedy Central, Sci Fi, and Discovery at $5/month (or more sans advertising).


----------



## perilousp69

I had many problems with Netflix/Tivo until I ran a CAT6 cable from my router, along the outside of my house to the Tivo upstairs. I now get stunning HD quality. 

I guess you just got to want it bad enough>


----------



## Sarnie24

I have been using and loving Netflix watch instantly on TiVo for the last 6 months. But a week or two ago a stupid green line would appear at the same time the screen would freeze for maybe a second then the picture will restart all pixely, then clears up while the sound continues as if there is nothing wrong with the picture. This happens about every 20 seconds no matter what I watch or if I have anything else running on my network. This really sucks! Is anyone else having this issue? Any ideas of what I could do to fix this?


----------



## rcoates777

Gang -

When I try to watch "The Office" via my on-demand Netflix I get a pause about every minute that says "Retrieving...." The "quality" bar graph says 'HD'. I am using a wireless connection which the speakeasy.net speed test says is running at about 8500 kbs. Sometimes I'll start over in an attempt to get a new connection and it runs better. Normally it is about 9:30 PM (EST) that I am trying this.

I just tested it this morning (9 AM) and it ran flawlessly.

I'm thinking that perhaps the Netflix servers are just overloaded during prime time. Are others out there having this problem?

Thanks.

Bob

---------------
[OK, I'll confess that I didn't look through all 700+ messages but I gave it a good shot. Please don't savage me - I'm very sensitive. Is there a way that "search" can return just the posts with the desired word? Even when I check "show posts" I get the entire thread]


----------



## mikeyts

rcoates777 said:


> [OK, I'll confess that I didn't look through all 700+ messages but I gave it a good shot. Please don't savage me - I'm very sensitive. Is there a way that "search" can return just the posts with the desired word? Even when I check "show posts" I get the entire thread]


I used the "Search This Thread" tool (right side of the black bar on top of the first post displayed) to search for the word "retrieving" and got just 17 hits.


----------



## hummingbird_206

I searched the thread but couldn't find any info about activating the Netflix service

Every time I try to use Netflix I have to go thru the activation process. I don't use Netflix that often, and I can activate and then start watching stuff that's in my instant queue, but it's really a pain having to do the activation each time. Anyone else having this problem? More improtantly, anyone know how to keep this from happening?


----------



## av_dude

hummingbird_206 said:


> I searched the thread but couldn't find any info about activating the Netflix service
> 
> Every time I try to use Netflix I have to go thru the activation process. I don't use Netflix that often, and I can activate and then start watching stuff that's in my instant queue, but it's really a pain having to do the activation each time. Anyone else having this problem? More improtantly, anyone know how to keep this from happening?


You mention the activation process. Just to be clear, are you speaking of activation at netflix.com or on the PS3? I haven't gotten home yet to try it out, so I'm not sure if there is an activation on the PS3, but thought I'd ask.


----------



## hummingbird_206

I'm asking about the activation on the TiVo. There is a Netflix folder on the Now Playing screen. When I select that folder I get a Netflix activation screen with a 4 digit code and instructions to go to netflix.com/activate (on a computer) and enter the 4 digit code from the TiVo screen at that website. That then activates Netflix on the TiVo and I can then view stuff in my instant queue. Seems to me I shouldn't have to keep reactivating my account for the TiVo so I wondered if anyone else was seeing the same thing.


----------



## mikeyts

Having to activate every time is abnormal--you should only have to do it once. Call Netflix or TiVo to see whether they can help.


----------



## av_dude

hummingbird_206 said:


> I'm asking about the activation on the TiVo. There is a Netflix folder on the Now Playing screen. When I select that folder I get a Netflix activation screen with a 4 digit code and instructions to go to netflix.com/activate (on a computer) and enter the 4 digit code from the TiVo screen at that website. That then activates Netflix on the TiVo and I can then view stuff in my instant queue. Seems to me I shouldn't have to keep reactivating my account for the TiVo so I wondered if anyone else was seeing the same thing.


Yes, as Mike just stated, something is not right; I'm not seeing this issue.


----------



## hummingbird_206

I didn't think it was normal, but wanted to see if anyone else was experiencing it. Guess it's just me.


----------



## tattoohead

What's the deal with the screen going grey, no sound or video. The remote control is useless and I have to reboot my box. I've got a week old Tivo HD with a month old Panasonic 50" plasma w/panasonic HTIB.

Is this network congestion or what? During the reboot period, I'm able to go on the Internet without any problems. It only happens when I try to watch a streaming movie from Netflix.


----------



## dlfl

tattoohead said:


> What's the deal with the screen going grey, no sound or video. The remote control is useless and I have to reboot my box. I've got a week old Tivo HD with a month old Panasonic 50" plasma w/panasonic HTIB.
> 
> Is this network congestion or what? During the reboot period, I'm able to go on the Internet without any problems. It only happens when I try to watch a streaming movie from Netflix.


Welcome to the forum! Let me introduce you to the handy Search feature.  Click on the "Search This Thread" pull down at upper right and enter first "gray" then do again entering "grey". You will find a number of posts that appear to discuss your issue. Good hunting!


----------



## tattoohead

Thanks for the welcome dlfl...I just bought a Roku box...seems like the only thing that's gonna make it work. Now the wait for the tuner and all is well..(crosses fingers)


----------



## jeni18

Hi, I have the same problem as the OP, when watching any HD programs (e.g. Lost, Office) it stops every 2 minutes and says "Retrieving Data". I have a high speed connection (15mb-20mb download) and am connected wirelessly. I contacted Netflix and they of course said it must be my internet connection. Any suggestions how to improve this? Same thing happens morning and night. This is a great feature to have but only great if it works. Any help or suggestions would be very much appreciated. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!


----------



## dlfl

I assume you have the TiVo-branded wireless adapter(?) If not that might be a problem. Can you plug the wireless adapter into a laptop or pc and test the download speed using speedtest.net ? (I'm guessing the adapter will support this -- not sure.) The adapter antenna should be located as close as possible to where it is when plugged into the TiVo when doing this test.


----------



## orangeboy

dlfl said:


> I assume you have the TiVo-branded wireless adapter(?) If not that might be a problem. Can you plug the wireless adapter into a laptop or pc and test the download speed using speedtest.net ? (I'm guessing the adapter will support this -- not sure.) The adapter antenna should be located as close as possible to where it is when plugged into the TiVo when doing this test.


There are no published drivers for the Tivo Wireless adapter.


----------



## dlfl

OK, test the download speed on a laptop or PC that has wireless. At least find out what speeds your wireless system provides. If you aren't using the TiVo branded wireless adapter on your TiVo, you probably will want to get one.


----------



## jeni18

Hi,

Yes I am using the TiVo brand wireless adapter. The wireless speed from the location of the adapter is 9mb.


----------



## dlfl

Could you temporarily switch your TiVo to a hard wired internet connection just to see if that solves the Netlix problems? Then you would know it's something about your wireless connection -- or not.

Or -- I've never done this but I understand Netflix lets you instant view on a PC. Can you test that with a hard wired connection?

My internet tests around 5 to 9 Mbps. I've only had Netflix a few days but have watched several hours of HD on it with no pauses or any other kind of problem. My TiVo has a hard wired connection though.


----------



## orangeboy

dlfl said:


> Could you temporarily switch your TiVo to a hard wired internet connection just to see if that solves the Netlix problems? Then you would know it's something about your wireless connection -- or not.
> 
> Or -- I've never done this but I understand Netflix lets you instant view on a PC. Can you test that with a hard wired connection?
> 
> My internet tests around 5 to 9 Mbps. I've only had Netflix a few days but have watched several hours of HD on it with no pauses or any other kind of problem. My TiVo has a hard wired connection though.


I do not believe there is an HD option for the PC: AVS post.


----------



## mr.unnatural

I just watched my first show streamed from NetFlix (30 Rock pilot episode) and I am not impressed. The picture quality is about what I expected and was actually quite annoying to watch. I viewed it via my HTPC and not my Tivo, hence I was using the Silverlight software viewer. I have a 60" Sony HD RPTV so the level of noise and grain were amplified to the point where the image was intolerable to me. The audio also didn't sound right, most likely because it was probably reduced to stereo vs. AC-3 for the original HD broadcast. 

I held off watching a streamed program from NetFlix for quite a while because this is exactly what I expected to see and hear from this type of service. I'll just put the rest of the shows I want to watch in my queue and wait for the DVD or Blu-Ray disc to arrive. Even DVDs look better than the streamed crap on my HDTV.


----------



## orangeboy

orangeboy said:


> I do not believe there is an HD option for the PC: AVS post.





mr.unnatural said:


> ...I viewed it via my HTPC and not my Tivo, hence I was using the Silverlight software viewer...


Why not try it on your Tivo where HD is an option?


----------



## dlfl

orangeboy said:


> Why not try it on your Tivo where HD is an option?


And be aware only a fraction of the instant watch videos are HD. Select the HD Genre under the Instant Watch tab in the web interface. You should see the bars all the way across with a "HD" off to the right when it's buffering.

This seems to conflict with what a Netflix CSR told me the other night, which was that *all *instant watch are streamed in 720p HD if your internet connection permits. If that's really true, what's the distinction of a video being in the HD Genre?


----------



## mikeyts

I own a TiVo, Xbox 360 and a PS3 and have viewed Netflix on all of them as well as on my PC (my PC's monitor is the same panel that I view all of the other devices on). I can tell you that the PC is by far the worst platform for Netflix streaming. For one (big) thing, there are no HD streams for it. You should definitely try it on TiVo before passing judgement. (Why would you report your impressions of streaming to a PC here? It's almost off-topic).

To see the HD genre, go to www.netflix.com/wihd?ftr=no. I believe that _30 Rock_ is one of those.

Netflix Watch Instantly is definitely not A/V-ophile stuff, but if you're already a Netflix subscriber, it doesn't cost anything extra. For me, at least, it has its uses.


----------



## Qwertinsky

Being new the Netflix I thought I would throw my complaints into this thread just in case they are counting users with the same issues. I know some of this has probably been addressed but I have not read this entire thread, so give me a break.

I am on my third month of Netflix. We got it mainly for the streaming to our Tivo.

Overall the streaming is a real pain in the ass to use because I can not just go to the Netflix menu on the Tivo, browse the movies, and pick one like I can with Amazon and Blockbuster on the Tivo.

I have to go in to my office,
start up the computer,
go to Netflix website,
browse their selection,
add the movie I want to watch to the streaming Que,
go back out to the living room,
navigate to the Netflix menu,
pick the movie from the Que,
I can finially start the stream.

Then the aspect ratio is often messed up so I spend ten minutes dinking with the aspect settings on the Tivo and on my TV to find the proper aspect ratio combination that will put the Netflix stream in the proper aspect ratio.

Once I never could find the proper setting and had to watch an entire movie squished to 4:3.

If the stream gets interrupted for any reason (like Comcraptic internet service) you have to restart from the beginning then fast forward to the place you left off.

If you do not get 5* during the streaming quality test the streaming picture quality looks worse than the average You-Tube video.


----------



## av_dude

Qwertinsky said:


> Being new the Netflix I thought I would throw my complaints into this thread just in case they are counting users with the same issues. I know some of this has probably been addressed but I have not read this entire thread, so give me a break.
> 
> I am on my third month of Netflix. We got it mainly for the streaming to our Tivo.
> 
> Overall the streaming is a real pain in the ass to use because I can not just go to the Netflix menu on the Tivo, browse the movies, and pick one like I can with Amazon and Blockbuster on the Tivo.
> 
> I have to go in to my office,
> start up the computer,
> go to Netflix website,
> browse their selection,
> add the movie I want to watch to the streaming Que,
> go back out to the living room,
> navigate to the Netflix menu,
> pick the movie from the Que,
> I can finially start the stream.
> 
> Then the aspect ratio is often messed up so I spend ten minutes dinking with the aspect settings on the Tivo and on my TV to find the proper aspect ratio combination that will put the Netflix stream in the proper aspect ratio.
> 
> Once I never could find the proper setting and had to watch an entire movie squished to 4:3.
> 
> If the stream gets interrupted for any reason (like Comcraptic internet service) you have to restart from the beginning then fast forward to the place you left off.
> 
> If you do not get 5* during the streaming quality test the streaming picture quality looks worse than the average You-Tube video.


Make sure you are in the "Panel" mode before you go into Netflix. You will need to be on an SD channel first, I believe.

Also, the TiVo does, indeed, remember where it left off. I've had the occasional kick to the NPL, and it always gives me an option to resume play. The same is true when I leave the movie myself.

Lastly, just put a bunch of movies in the queue, so you don't have to worry about it for a while.


----------



## wmcbrine

av_dude said:


> Make sure you are in the "Panel" mode before you go into Netflix. You will need to be on an SD channel first, I believe.


No need to be on an SD channel. You won't be able to see the results of the Aspect mode change directly on an HD channel*, but you can still read the mode in the oval in the lower right corner as you change it. But, yeah, you can't do it from within the Netflix app; you can only toggle the Aspect mode from Live TV or during playback of a recording.

Also, "Panel" isn't always the right mode for Netflix. Hence why this is a pain in the ass.

* The actual distinction is 4:3 vs. 16:9, but this just happens to coincide almost 100% with SD vs. HD. Also, the above assumes that your TiVo is set to 16:9 output; if it's set to 4:3, then it's the SD channels that don't change when you run through the Aspect modes.


----------



## mikeyts

Qwertinsky said:


> Overall the streaming is a real pain in the ass to use because I can not just go to the Netflix menu on the Tivo, browse the movies, and pick one like I can with Amazon and Blockbuster on the Tivo.


In a recent Xbox update, the Netflix player was given the ability to browse 100 titles each in about a dozen genres (presumably the most popular 100 titles of each). You can play these titles without putting them in your instant queue, you can add them to your instant queue and you can delete things from your instant queue.  The GUI for the new PS3 player (a Blu-ray disc) has the same capabilities. Perhaps one day they'll add something similar (or better) to TiVo.


----------



## morac

mikeyts said:


> In a recent Xbox update, the Netflix player was given the ability to browse 100 titles each in about a dozen genres (presumably the most popular 100 titles of each). You can play these titles without putting them in your instant queue, you can add them to your instant queue and you can delete things from your instant queue. The GUI for the new PS3 player (a Blu-ray disc) has the same capabilities. Perhaps one day they'll add something similar (or better) to TiVo.


TiVo's Magret Schmidt (VP of User Experience) tweeted on November 20th that Netflix has been integrated into TiVo Search. I've never tried it though.


----------



## mikeyts

morac said:


> TiVo's Magret Schmidt (VP of User Experience) tweeted on November 20th that Netflix has been integrated into TiVo Search. I've never tried it though.


Huh. I'll be damned if it doesn't work!!! I went into TiVo Search and searched for _30 Rock_. It showed that it was in the guide, available from Amazon, Netflix and was available in HD. I brought up its Episode Guide; individual episodes showed as being available from Amazon and Netflix in HD (episodes of the current season only from Amazon). Arbitrarily, I selected Season 2, Episode 12 ("Subway Hero"). The first two choices that came up were "Watch Now" (where the only choice was "Netflix") and "Purchase From...". I selected "Watch Now" which brought me to the Netflix program description dialog for the episode, with choices "Play" and "View my Instant Queue". I selected "Play" and it started streaming the episode, in HD. It was not in my Instant Queue (I've never watched the series), nor did viewing it place it in my Instant Queue. Using the same path, I brought the episode list for _Legend of the Seeker_ (also something I've never watched) and selected the episode which first aired on the 20th of this month, which I also started streaming, in HD.

Finally, I looked up _Jarhead_, which I'd watched a couple of minutes of on my PC when I first saw that it was available for Instant Watching, though I hadn't placed it in my queue. It was available from Amazon, Blockbuster and Netflix and had "Watch Now", "Rent From..." and "Purchase From..." options. I selected "Watch Now" and it started streaming from where I left off on my PC.

Pretty slick . If there's not a thread for this, I'm going to repost this to start one.

EDIT: I looked, and there already _is_ a thread about this (here) from about six days back. As someone in that thread points out, this isn't a browser for Netflix streaming titles, but it's still pretty cool.


----------



## dlfl

Thanks for the mini-tutorial *mikeyts* ! Worked for me just like you described. Their 720p looks pretty good on my 40" 1080p LCD, not quite as crisp as really good 720p but quite viewable -- way better than SD. I think I read somewhere (probably earlier in this thread) that HD is compressed to around 3.8 Mbps, so you can't expect miracles, even with H264.

Of course there has to be some glitch or it's not a TiVo. I'm playing the Legend of The Seeker episode you mentioned for a few minutes while I write this post and now the remote control response is gone -- no yellow light and no response to any buttons. After a minute or two the response is back and I have a theory about this based not just on this incident but also others I've had just playing back recordings: This problem seems to be correlated with times when the video is very dark, almost black. Response came back to normal when the video got brighter. Anyone else see this behavior?

My remote response is weak (have to aim the remote carefully) during the first minute or so of TV warm up. I've read this is related to the backlighting. It isn't obvious to me how this same effect could explain what I just reported above, however (which occurs long past the TV warm up). TV is a recent Samsung 600 series, using component inputs.

EDIT: Think I just verified my remote lockup effect is due to something the TV is putting out when video is dark. It happened again and this time I turned the TV off and remote response was immediately back (evidenced by yellow light response). Does the backlighting vary in such a way as to put out more IR noise when the video is dark ???

EDIT#2: Further verification: If I move up in front of the TiVo and TV such as to block whatever is coming from the TV from reaching the TiVo, the remote response returns.


----------



## CrispyCritter

dlfl said:


> My remote response is weak (have to aim the remote carefully) during the first minute or so of TV warm up. I've read this is related to the backlighting. It isn't obvious to me how this same effect could explain what I just reported above, however (which occurs long past the TV warm up). TV is a recent Samsung 600 series, using component inputs.
> 
> EDIT: Think I just verified my remote lockup effect is due to something the TV is putting out when video is dark. It happened again and this time I turned the TV off and remote response was immediately back (evidenced by yellow light response). Does the backlighting vary in such a way as to put out more IR noise when the video is dark ???


yes, that seems to be a very common problem with recent Samsung TVs. See this thread with several comments (you seem to have it better than some!)


----------



## dlfl

CrispyCritter said:


> yes, that seems to be a very common problem with recent Samsung TVs. See this thread with several comments (you seem to have it better than some!)


That's it thanks -- I should have seen that thread. A lot of the posts are very recent I see. That thread is the first place I've seen problems other than just the warmup period reported. The reason I'm having less trouble is my backlight is set to 8.


----------



## mlcgreenlee

I've been reading this thread to try to figure out why I have so many latency issues with Watch Instantly and am finally ready to post. I am increasingly frustrated by the "retrieving" bar that will show up every 2-5 minutes during a program. At first I thought maybe it was just 30 Rock, because I watched 2 seasons of the Tudors this weekend and never had that issue. On Monday, however, I tried watching the L Word and the same latency problems continue. I've deactivated my Netflix and then reactivated it again, with no success. I've also restarted the Tivo with no success. When I watch on my Mac with the same wireless network, I do not have any latency issues. which is why I am pretty sure it is not a wireless problem. Any other suggestions? The whole reason I restarted my Netflix was for the Watch Instantly function, but now I would just as soon as buy all of the seasons on Amazon VOD.

I am excited to learn about the new Browser option though, *mikeyts*! I'm definitely going to try that when I get home tonight.


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## dlfl

mlcgreenlee said:


> ......... When I watch on my Mac with the same wireless network, I do not have any latency issues. which is why I am pretty sure it is not a wireless problem. .........


I believe Netflix uses lower resolution (and thus lower bandwidth) for IW on a computer, thus I think your network probably is the bottleneck causing the TiVo IW problems. Is there any way you could connect the TiVo via hardwired ethernet, at least long enough for a test? Select a video from the HD Genre (Genre menu in IW tab) for a real test. If it's able to support HD download bandwidth you will see a little "HD" to the right of the retrieving bars. This supposedly only requires 5 Mbps download speed. You might need to upgrade your router, if you're using one.


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## bowlingblogger

dlfl said:


> I believe Netflix uses lower resolution (and thus lower bandwidth) for IW on a computer, thus I think your network probably is the bottleneck causing the TiVo IW problems.


That's true, as there is no HD option (that I know of) for instant watching on a computer. Also, I understand that Netflix uses different encodings of programs for Tivo than it does for a computer (which uses Silverlight). The "Retrieving" problem mostly went away for me when I switched from the Tivo wireless adapter to ethernet (even with HD streaming), but it still happens occasionally. I suspect the culprit to be Netflix's servers rather than my internet connection, which is never below 10 Mbps on testmy.net. Of course, this is unsatisfying since it's completely beyond our control.


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## dlfl

bowlingblogger said:


> That's true, as there is no HD option (that I know of) for instant watching on a computer. Also, I understand that Netflix uses different encodings of programs for Tivo than it does for a computer (which uses Silverlight). The "Retrieving" problem mostly went away for me when I switched from the Tivo wireless adapter to ethernet (even with HD streaming), but it still happens occasionally. I suspect the culprit to be Netflix's servers rather than my internet connection, which is never below 10 Mbps on testmy.net. Of course, this is unsatisfying since it's completely beyond our control.


My internet with router and wireless just checked 8.2 Mbps on testmy.net and 8.3 Mbps on speedtest.net (another good test site FYI). I haven't had Netflix long enough to make broad statements but so far I have had zero pauses on HD (or other) videos. My TiVo is hardwired to the router.

It could be the Netflix servers, but also anything between your TiVo and the servers. It seems your wireless adapter is the worst bottleneck however.

I learned from actual experience that the router can make a big difference. I had a five year old router and replaced it with a new more expensive one. My download speeds almost doubled both wired and wireless.


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## bowlingblogger

dlfl said:


> It could be the Netflix servers, but also anything between your TiVo and the servers. It seems your wireless adapter is the worst bottleneck however.


Yeah, that is a definite possibility. A router setting, or inadequate hardware in the router, could definitely slow the throughput or otherwise negatively affect the connection to the point that it stutters. There are so many variables involved that I fear there is no magic fix and a lot of people will never get to the bottom of it in their particular setup.

I like speedtest.net in a pinch, but since I have Cox with powerboost it skews the speed way upwards (26-28 Mbps vs. 10-12 on testmy.net).


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## mlcgreenlee

Thanks! That helped alot. We hardlined the Tivo and rebooted it and when we tested it out last night we were able to watch instantly with no interruption. We are now just moving the router into the bedroom with the Tivo so it can stay hooked up permanently to the ethernet and will have the non-HD livingroom Tivo operate wirelessly.


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## bowlingblogger

mlcgreenlee said:


> Thanks! That helped alot. We hardlined the Tivo and rebooted it and when we tested it out last night we were able to watch instantly with no interruption.


Ethernet is the best way to go...it's less convenient, but for many it eliminates the stuttering. Congratulations on making the switch and enjoy your Netflix!


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## mlcgreenlee

Well, the latency issues I had stopped for about two days, but even with our Tivo hooked up to the ethernet cord, my netflix shows are still pausing--not with the frequency they did before, but hardlining the system wasn't a permanent or perfect fix. Its a little frustrating, but I guess I should just be happy that it got a little better.


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## bowlingblogger

I still have the problem of stuttering occasionally too. At least with ethernet you know you've eliminated the variable of unreliable wireless streaming. Now you can be like me and blame it on the Tivo hardware and Netflix's overloaded servers!


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## heberman

I would guess that the problem is more likely to be caused by your internet service provider - not the Tivo or Netflix. If your ISP gives you inconsistent bandwidth, you won't be able to fix it unless you change to a better ISP.


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## dlfl

heberman said:


> I would guess that the problem is more likely to be caused by your internet service provider - not the Tivo or Netflix. If your ISP gives you inconsistent bandwidth, you won't be able to fix it unless you change to a better ISP.


My thought also. My internet tests lower speeds than those having the stuttering problem yet I don't have the problems (so far). A larger buffer on the TiVo end could handle this. The buffer can be on disk since TiVo clearly can read/write to the disk with video speed, although perhaps the workload of this added to always writing to the two tuner buffers could be too much.


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## mikeyts

The situation is far too complex to be able to figure out exactly what's to blame using the information available to us. Could be where you are network-wise in relationship to the closest Netflix streaming server. Regardless of the rated speed of your service, bandwidth to any arbitrary point on the network will vary. Again, no way to know.

It'd be nice if Netflix would switch to a more sophisticated streaming technology, like Microsoft's IIS Smooth Streaming tech, part of Silverlight V3, now in use for Zune Video on the Xbox--it smoothly and seamlessly switches to higher and lower bit rate stream encodings as available bandwidth varies, with no pauses to rebuffer. Unfortunately its use requires a set of encodings created specifically for it. Maybe someday.


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## dlfl

Last night watching a movie, video froze and it went into an endless loop of "retreiving". Finally I rewound a few seconds and it restarted and was OK for the rest of the movie.

Today I started a video, and fast forwarded through some PBS donor credits, and after that the audio sync was off by 1 to 1.5 seconds (audio leading video). Pause and rewind didn't fix it. Had to restart it completely, then it was OK.

Another question: If your download speed is fast enough do you get *all* videos in HD? I seem to get all the ones in the HD Genre in HD but no others. My downloads test 5 to 10 Mbps, averaging 7 to 8.


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## mikeyts

dlfl said:


> Another question: If your download speed is fast enough do you get *all* videos in HD? I seem to get all the ones in the HD Genre in HD but no others. My downloads test 5 to 10 Mbps, averaging 7 to 8.


Only the ones in the HD Genre (www.netflix.com/wihd?ftr=no, 581 titles as I write this) _have_ HD encodings. You can't get any of the rest in HD (some 12,000 titles), no matter how fast your rated service or connection to Netflix's server is.


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## dlfl

Watching a movie tonight and the audio was lagging the video by 0.5 secs, maybe less. Wasn't bothering anyone else watching so just let it go. Finally after 1hr 10 min I restarted the movie, hoping it would sync in this time. Still the same sync problem. I then decided to fast forward to where I had been. After doing that the movie would not resume, no "retrieving" bars. I exited and tried to restart the movie but no retrieving bar again. At that point I had lost complete control. I exited to the netflix main menu but when I hit live play it went to black screen and no remote response, although the yellow light would respond. Finally had to reboot the TiVo.

I had a similar experience several weeks ago, again after fast forwarding through more than an hour of video.

What the heck is going on here? Is this yet another Netflix quirck?

I've been thinking about dropping cable because of problems with the TA and pixelated SDV channels, and then using antenna and Netflix as my main sources. Now I'm wondering if I can even count on Netlix. If not, my TiVo has approached zero value to me. 

Edit: I watched several other videos with no problem then tried to start the movie that forced me to reboot before. Just trying to start it locked things up and ended in a reboot. After this, Netflix was gone from the NPL and VOD said there was a problem and I had to force a connection to TiVo. Arrrgghhh!!! Is there any feature other than OTA via antenna that is robust?


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## pl1

dlfl said:


> Just trying to start it locked things up and ended in a reboot.


This is the first time I recall such a serious event occurring on my TiVo with Netflix. I was watching a movie, and it kept pausing with retreving, and when I tried to come out of the Netflix menu, the whole TiVo froze grey screen and eventually rebooted on it's own. This behavior also happened on my second TiVo. Both units are the original S3's.

When Netflix VOD works, it is good. but, when it doesn't, it is a big PITA.


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## Tony_P

We had major issue last night. Tried to watch Heroes Season 1 Episode 1. Things seems sluggish and when we selected the episode and selected play the description banner came up, half painted, and then went away to a grey screen. We never go the 'retrieving' meter. Wireless network signal was 94 to 98 percent. Rebooted the Tivo many times. Called both Tivo and Netflix. Tivo blames Netflix. Netflix blames our ISP. I doubt that one as streaming the show to PC was fine.

Finally, on about try number 5, we started getting something. Exactly 14 seconds, then "retrieving" for about 30 seconds, then playing about 15 seconds more, then "retrieving" for about 30 seconds, etc.

I tried to exit out of the show, when back to Tivo home, the screen didn't paint properly .. grey background not red etc. Then after sitting, it rebooted on its own.

Exasperated we turned it off and settled down for a night of old time radio!

Any advice?

T


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## pl1

Tony_P said:


> Any advice?T


Have you tried again today? Everything seems normal now, which indicates it was on their end, whatever end that is. 

I'm thinking of maybe getting a Roku or a Sony BR player for Netflix, if it keeps up, since I rarely hear of issues with those devices.


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## Tony_P

pl1 said:


> Have you tried again today? Everything seems normal now, which indicates it was on their end, whatever end that is.


Yep -- just did -- all is well. I wonder if its a capacity issue on their end?

T


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## zenful6219

Today, I've been trying to watch episodes of Lost (Season 4) on my Tivo HD from Netflix. It'll play for about 45-60 seconds, then the Retrieving bar pops up for about 10-20 seconds, always in HD quality. I'm getting the same quality wireless connection it's always had (around 90-92%), and I was able to watch episodes a few days ago without any of the start and stops.


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## pl1

zenful6219 said:


> Today, I've been trying to watch episodes of Lost (Season 4) on my Tivo HD from Netflix. It'll play for about 45-60 seconds, then the Retrieving bar pops up for about 10-20 seconds, always in HD quality. I'm getting the same quality wireless connection it's always had (around 90-92%), and I was able to watch episodes a few days ago without any of the start and stops.


Netflix locked up my TiVo again last night (after watching successfully during the day).

I have no real problem with the fact that the server is too busy, if that is the case, but what I do have a problem with is when it locks up my TiVo as it did last night. There is something wrong when this happens in my opinion. I had to pull the plug to get my TiVo back. The original message I got was something like "can't connect to server." Then I tried again, only to get a grey screen and a frozen TiVo.


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## mlcgreenlee

This happened to me this weekend as well. I was trying to watch Weeds and it completely froze my Tivo altogether--twice.


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## szurlo

I made an interesting discovery the other day RE: "Retrieving" messages. We suddenly started having excessive pause and retrieve issues at about the same time every night. My Tivo is hard-wired to my router and I have the RoadRunner Turbo offering from TWC which almost always tests out at over 10mbs down and 512kbps up. With 10mbs down I felt fairly certain it was not a bandwidth issue. I was wrong. Apparently the Netflix streaming service can get pretty tripped up if your UPSTREAM connection is saturated. The cause of my issue was an on-line backup service I use. Somehow the backup scheduler had gotten changed to 7:00PM. So for about an hour every night, my UPSTREAM connection was being saturated by my backup application. During those times, Netflix was almost unusable, even though my downstream connection was no where near saturated. As soon as I killed the backup, the Netflix issues stopped. The take away here is that having boat-loads of JUST downstream capacity is not enough to make this work right.


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## dlfl

szurlo said:


> I made an interesting discovery the other day RE: "Retrieving" messages. We suddenly started having excessive pause and retrieve issues at about the same time every night. My Tivo is hard-wired to my router and I have the RoadRunner Turbo offering from TWC which almost always tests out at over 10mbs down and 512kbps up. With 10mbs down I felt fairly certain it was not a bandwidth issue. I was wrong. Apparently the Netflix streaming service can get pretty tripped up if your UPSTREAM connection is saturated. The cause of my issue was an on-line backup service I use. Somehow the backup scheduler had gotten changed to 7:00PM. So for about an hour every night, my UPSTREAM connection was being saturated by my backup application. During those times, Netflix was almost unusable, even though my downstream connection was no where near saturated. As soon as I killed the backup, the Netflix issues stopped. The take away here is that having boat-loads of JUST downstream capacity is not enough to make this work right.


Good find! And it makes sense too. They do need to get stuff back up the line for Netflix to work.

Another minor find of mine: I don't use wireless for my TiVo but do use it for other things. When our microwave oven is running, it kills the wireless.


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## dsb411

Ive been having the pause/retrieve issue of late too. This is the first issue ive had since Netflix has been offered on TIVO. Its horribly annoying. I blame my ISP, Comcast, they really stink as I never have a consistant connection.


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## szurlo

dlfl said:


> Good find! And it makes sense too. They do need to get stuff back up the line for Netflix to work.
> 
> Another minor find of mine: I don't use wireless for my TiVo but do use it for other things. When our microwave oven is running, it kills the wireless.


802.11b and g, which operate in the 2.4GHZ range, share that spectrum with a host of other devices. Everything from ham radio to garage door openers. The weekend I spent pulling cat 5 and crimping connectors was well worth it to me to have a rock-solid LAN. IMO, wi-fi is what you use ONLY when wire is simply not possible. It is by no means an equal substitution for wire. It's a compromise where you gain convenience but sacrifice in pretty much every other category.


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## bowlingblogger

szurlo said:


> IMO, wi-fi is what you use ONLY when wire is simply not possible. It is by no means an equal substitution for wire. It's a compromise where you gain convenience but sacrifice in pretty much every other category.


Well said--especially with all things Tivo!


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## HeatherA

TiVoStephen said:


> * Issues regarding freezes and reboots
> 
> If you lose network connectivity (for example, if your router is unplugged or your ISP has a hiccup or the cat chews through the Ethernet cable) while watching a Netflix video, you may experience a rare issue with your DVR becoming completely unresponsive to the remote.
> 
> If your DVR does freeze, the only solution is to reboot the unit.
> 
> However, if you still do not have network connectivity during the boot up process, the boot will not finish. So you MUST have a working network to reboot, if you experience a freeze while using the Netflix application. If your reboot seems to take a long time (e.g. more than 5 minutes) we suggest that you confirm your network is up and running (e.g. verify with a PC on the network).
> 
> We're continuing to investigate this issue and are working on a fix for a future release.
> 
> We apologize for these problems and thank you for your patience.


A year later and this is still an issue. Just joined Netflix tonight and during our movie we lost our internet connection briefly and were able to recover, however it happened a second time and our TiVo froze forcing a reboot. The TiVo HD is not even a month out of the box. Why hasn't this issue been fixed yet? Just curious...


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## dlfl

HeatherA said:


> A year later and this is still an issue. Just joined Netflix tonight and during our movie we lost our internet connection briefly and were able to recover, however it happened a second time and our TiVo froze forcing a reboot. The TiVo HD is not even a month out of the box. Why hasn't this issue been fixed yet? Just curious...


Join the crowd! I don't think anyone knows whether it will be fixed. I don't think improvements of Series 3 TiVo's is high on TiVo's priority list compared with developing future business.


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## mikeyts

dlfl said:


> Join the crowd! I don't think anyone knows whether it will be fixed. I don't think improvements of Series 3 TiVo's is high on TiVo's priority list compared with developing future business.


He's talking about a TiVo HD. My Series3 has only done that once since Netflix streaming on TiVo became available.


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## susandennis

mikeyts said:


> He's talking about a TiVo HD. My Series3 has only done that once since Netflix streaming on TiVo became available.


I have two Series 3 and they both have been rebooted by Netflix multiple times this weekend and it's driving me NUTS! I have time to write this because I'm waiting for both of them to come back up again. GRRRRRR


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## moyekj

mikeyts said:


> He's talking about a TiVo HD. My Series3 has only done that once since Netflix streaming on TiVo became available.


 I have 2 original series 3 and it's happened more than once unfortunately. Also, the VC-1 decoder in original S3 units is not as robust as THD units such that there are several titles that don't play with S3 units but play OK on THD units. I used to be an advocate for TiVo/Netflix solution (I have past posts in this very thread) but recent experiences trying to use it extensively led to freezing and reboot issues that countless others have posted about and that TiVo itself has acknowledged as issues that haven't been fixed yet. Judging by how long the issue has been around I'm not convinced TiVo is working on further fixes to these problems and I have resorted to having to use crappy quality streaming to PC for now in order to keep from having to reboot my S3s due to freezes.
Seems like perhaps the issue is worse lately, but likely because I was using TiVo/Netflix a lot more than in the past.
A real shame really because the picture quality of "HD" streams is much better than the crappy quality I get streaming to PC. Unfortunately I don't have Xbox, PS3 or some other Netflix client that reportedly work a lot better than TiVo (or at least recover a lot more gracefully from internet related problems).


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## pl1

susandennis said:


> I have two Series 3 and they both have been rebooted by Netflix multiple times this weekend and it's driving me NUTS! I have time to write this because I'm waiting for both of them to come back up again. GRRRRRR


It's happened a few too many times for me, on both of my original Series 3 units as well. The DVD player I've been using instead hasn't had a problem since. So, I blame TiVo. Even if it does lock up, it should never cause a reboot. An automatic reboot seems kind of catastrophic .


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## HeatherA

mikeyts said:


> He's talking about a TiVo HD. My Series3 has only done that once since Netflix streaming on TiVo became available.


I'm a she, but I'm glad to hear it's not an issue for you.

It was very frustrating. Prior to primetime we had no problems, so I'm thinking it's a congestion thing either on Netflix, TiVo's server or our ISP. Regardless it's annoying. I switched inputs to our Windows 7 MCE machine and have been watching fine with no hiccups through media center ever since I posted. I guess we'll just have to avoid the TiVo Netflix at primetime.


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## TiVo Steve

susandennis said:


> I have two Series 3 and they both have been rebooted by Netflix multiple times this weekend and it's driving me NUTS! I have time to write this because I'm waiting for both of them to come back up again. GRRRRRR


Starting Friday, when I try to play a Netflix video, all I get is the red Netflix banner, no video, and then a crash. I have an excellent internet connection. I can watch a Netflix video on my computer but not on my TiVo HD.

Neither Netflix nor TiVo will take responsibility for this problem. Netflix says it is a TiVo problem (which makes sense since I CAN watch a stream on my PC).

The TiVo CSR I spoke to blamed it on my 500GB Seagate HD upgrade (He said my box had been "tampered" with, and he could not help me!)

Time to sell my final TiVo on ebay....


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## dlfl

mikeyts said:


> He's talking about a TiVo HD. My Series3 has only done that once since Netflix streaming on TiVo became available.


Point of confusion in several recent posts (and throughout these forums actually):

Both S3 and HD models are "Series 3". To specify one or the other you have to be more specific. My intent was to include both models in my statement, although my actual experience is with the HD model.


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## mikeyts

HeatherA said:


> I'm a she...


Ooops! Sorry about that. It seems obvious from your username but I read your post without paying attention to that.

I've actually been using Netflix streaming a lot recently (given the total cessation of new episodes of my many Season Pass series over the last couple of weeks), but I replaced my old Xbox 360 with a newer, cooler running, virtually silent one and have switched to that because I prefer its much prettier, faster user interface (my old Xbox could be used as a space heater and had fans which, at maximum speed, sounded like a lawn mower, so I'd stopped using it for video viewing). Before switching, I'd done quite a lot of streaming on TiVo in the past, only hitting that freeze problem once and they seem to have fixed it--for me at least--in a release where they claimed to have fixed it. It's quite possible that if I were using my TiVo for all my recent Netflix streaming I'd have run into the same problem you guys are having, if it's caused by something they've done recently.


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## hummingbird_206

I have an S3 TiVo and (thankfully) don't have lockups/reboots while viewing from Netflix. I do get some stutters when viewing during prime time, but outside prime time it works perfectly.


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## mikeyts

dlfl said:


> Both S3 and HD models are "Series 3". To specify one or the other you have to be more specific. My intent was to include both models in my statement, although my actual experience is with the HD model.


I disagree. All current high definition TiVo DVRs have the Series3 logo on the front of their enclosures, along with HDTV, DCR, Dolby Digital and HDMI logos, with THX logos on the Series3 and HD XL models. However, only the original "TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder" has "Series3" in its product name. The other two are named simply "TiVo HD DVR" and "TiVo HD XL DVR". There's nothing else to call the Series3 to differentiate it from the other two, or at least nothing else short enough to use in conversation.

This reminds me of the grossing I occasionally hear from Mexicans, Canadians and South Americans about how people "incorrectly" use "Americans" exclusively to refer to U.S. citizens while they consider themselves to be Americans as well. My reply to that is that ours is the only nation with "America" as part of its name. They certainly have the right to use the name of their native continent to describe themselves, just as others call themselves Europeans, Africans and Asians. The problem is that there's no continent called simply "America". They are properly North Americans (as are people from the United States) and South Americans. What else would you call people from the U.S. in casual conversation? "United States of Americans"?


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## dlfl

mikeyts said:


> I disagree. All current high definition TiVo DVRs have the Series3 logo on the front of their enclosures, along with HDTV, DCR, Dolby Digital and HDMI logos, with THX logos on the Series3 and HD XL models. However, only the original "TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder" has "Series3" in its product name. The other two are named simply "TiVo HD DVR" and "TiVo HD XL DVR". There's nothing else to call the Series3 to differentiate it from the other two, or at least nothing else short enough to use in conversation.........


The Series 3 logo on all the HDTV models pretty much proves my logic correct, i.e., TiVo must consider them all to be Series 3 models. However your point about the model names is a strong one.

Some posters have used "original Series 3". Apparently no consensus exists so it will probably be advisable to just use more words to make the meaning clear.

Note the forum we are in is named: "TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs"
but covers all HDTV models. It was probably started before the HD model existed.


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## mikeyts

dlfl said:


> Some posters have used "original Series 3". Apparently no consensus exists so it will probably be advisable to just use more words to make the meaning clear.


Feel free to do that yourself, but I'm not going to. If that confuses you or anyone else, I apologize, but I've never used "Series3" to refer to any model other than the "TiVo Series3 HD Media Recorder" and I see no reason to change now. In none of the threads in which _I've_ participated has there been any confusion (except this one)--people largely call the units "Series3", "HD" and "HD XL", sometimes prefixed by the name "TiVo".

BTW, since we're being pedantic, note that it's fine to say "Series 3"--people will know you mean --but it should be noted that the trademark is "Series3", no space (the logo graphic is a separate registered trademark). They couldn't have trademarked the english word "Series" separated by a space from the numeral "3". In a search of TiVo's site, I find eight uses of "Series 3", 7 of them in quotes of news articles and press reviews. There are 176 occurences of "Series3".

At TiVo's site, they use the phrase "TiVo® HD, HD XL, and Series3™ DVRs" over and over and over again. Here are a few examples:


> TiVo Search (beta) is available on broadband-connected
> TiVo® HD, HD XL, and Series3™ DVRs
> 
> To access TiVo Search beta from a TiVo HD, HD XL, and Series3™ DVR:
> 
> Note: From any TiVo HD, TiVo HD XL and TiVo Series3™ you can toggle back and forth from TiVo Search to Swivel Search. Select 'Use TiVo Search in HD instead' from Swivel Search. And, from TiVo Search select 'Use Swivel Search instead'.
> 
> * Requires a TiVo HD, TiVo HD XL or TiVo Series3™ DVR. TiVo Series2™ DVRs do not have TiVo Search.
> 
> [_From the TiVo HD FAQ, written before the HD XL was released_]:
> 
> *How is TiVo HD different from the TiVo Series3 HD DVR?*
> Both products are designed on the Series3 architecture so the core TiVo functionality is the same. However, the TiVo Series3 HD DVR offers a bigger hard drive (250GB), THX® certification, a front panel display, and a programmable, backlit TiVo Glo remote control.


I do see a few places where they say "eligible TiVo® Series3™ and TiVo® Series2™", where they obviously mean all Series3 architecture models, but they're always preceded by "eligible" and in wading through many pages of search results I only saw that usage on special offers--apparently the people who write those are separate from the people who write everything else .

So TiVo, in all of the information on their website, only uses "Series3" to refer to their original high-def DVR, except in a few special offer detail pages, in the phrase "eligible TiVo Series3", and in the spec sheets and FAQs for the TiVo HD and TiVo HD XL, in the phrase "Series3 architecture" (altogether fewer than 20 of 176 occurences).


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## Tony_P

Yet another crummy night with Netflix via Tivo. 

1: No Netflix Icon on Now Playing List or Video on Demand menu.
2: Did a connect to tivo as per instructions when VOD menu didn't appear.
3: Connected fine. Downloaded and applied latest stuff. Signal Strength 94%
4: Still no Netflix Icon on or Video on Demand menu.
5: Rebooted Tivo. Suffered through the intro video.
6: Still no Netflix Icon on Now Playing List or Video on Demand menu.
7: Attempted a connect to tivo as per instructions when VOD menu didn't appear.
8: Tivo said network unavailable. Returned to main menu 
9: Tried again. Signal Strength 90%
10: Tivo did prepare and the at negociating said Gateway Unavailable
11: Rebooted Tivo. Suffered through the intro video AGAIN!
12: Netflix Icon Available on Now Playing List 
13: Netflix menu would not display
14: Connected again to Tivo for updates. Signal Strength 90%
15: Tivo did prepare and the at negociating said Service Unavailable
16: Tivo still on network. Signal Strength 90%
17: Rebooted Tivo. Suffered through the intro video AGAIN!
18: Netflix Icon Available on Now Playing List 
19: Netflix menu painted and paged very slowly
20: Connected again to Tivo for updates. Signal Strength 90%
21: Connected fine. Downloaded and applied latest stuff. Signal Strength 94%
22: Tivo still on network. Signal Strength 90%
23: Netflix Icon Available on Now Playing List 
24: Netflix menu painted and paged very slowly
25: Selected programme. Tivo sat at please wait.
26: Turned TV off in disgust
27: 12 hours later - Tivo still sitting at please wait!
28: Rebooted Tivo. Everything fine

Side notes: Internet up and running at all times. Nothing running to interfere with signal

I've about had it with this bloody thing. Tivo blames Netflix. Netflix blames our ISP. This is baloney!

On a lighter note -- is there ANY way to get rid of that stupid intro video with the clips from North by Northwest and Teletubbies etc. Sometimes I feel like I could reboot the thing and and go prepare a 5 course dinner and it finally be done!

T


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## cjv2

Tony_P said:


> On a lighter note -- is there ANY way to get rid of that stupid intro video with the clips from North by Northwest and Teletubbies etc. Sometimes I feel like I could reboot the thing and and go prepare a 5 course dinner and it finally be done!
> 
> T


Punch the Tivo button on the remote. Intro video stops. Doesn't speed up whatever the Tivo has to do normally in the background while that video is running, but it makes the happy dancing video thing stop and dumps you on the main menu. Or at least it does on my TivoHD.


----------



## gweempose

My kids love that video! Out of curiosity, is there any way to get it to play other than by rebooting the machine?


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## pdhenry

gweempose said:


> My kids love that video! Out of curiosity, is there any way to get it to play other than by rebooting the machine?


Tivo button, then zero.


----------



## szurlo

Got an LG BD-390 BluRay player for Christmas. The Nexflix implementation is hands-down superior in every regard (IMHO) to TiVo's. 
Is it just me, or is it about time Tivo started thinking about an end-to-end overhaul of the device software and UI? Tivo has a great feature set, but it seems to get more buggy every year, and the UI is getting very long in the tooth.


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## moyekj

Wow, but that LG BD-390 player is expensive! ($370 at Amazon right now). I realize it supports other services besides Netflix as well as DLNA but still... I would hope it plays every format under the sun and streams flawlessly for that price range. Do you know if it can play .m2ts files (BD rips) directly over network without any hiccups?


----------



## szurlo

moyekj said:


> Wow, but that LG BD-390 player is expensive! ($370 at Amazon right now). I realize it supports other services besides Netflix as well as DLNA but still... I would hope it plays every format under the sun and streams flawlessly for that price range. Do you know if it can play .m2ts files (BD rips) directly over network without any hiccups?


I got it on sale for $259 at Best Buy, (regular price $299). And it plays all kinds of stuff via disk, USB drive or LAN via DLNA servers, even .mkv and DivX. Does NetFLix, YouTube, Divx VOD, Cinemanow and Vudu also. Manual does not list .m2ts files as supported.


----------



## dlfl

What are the main advantages of the LG BD-390 over the Samsung BD-P1600, which sells for only $149 at Amazon? It looks like built-in wireless .11n might be one of them. The LG unit weighs twice as much and is larger, for what that's worth. The LG unit has 1 GB of RAM but don't know what the Samsung has, or how important that is.


----------



## szurlo

dlfl said:


> What are the main advantages of the LG BD-390 over the Samsung BD-P1600, which sells for only $149 at Amazon? It looks like built-in wireless .11n might be one of them. The LG unit weighs twice as much and is larger, for what that's worth. The LG unit has 1 GB of RAM but don't know what the Samsung has, or how important that is.


Unless I'm mistaken, the Samsung player is not a DLNA device and cannot stream content from a server on your local network like the LG player can. The LG player also has a USB port that you can plug any FAT 32 formatted storage device into and play music, photos and video on the player.


----------



## HD_Dude

I'd like to add my vote to the group that says Netflix just doesn't work on their S3.

I have two S3's, and they work perfectly. 100&#37; dependable. They're on my CAT5 hardwired home network, on a very fast FIOS internet service. 

I use the S3's a lot. Each of them has twin Verizon CableCards installed. For years now - perfect.

On one of them, I have the Apricorn DVR Expander hooked up to give me a terrabyte of storage...perfect.

I use Tivo to Go, streaming the videos to my laptop over my home network - perfect.

My kids record Disney shows in HD and play them back, and it all works fine.

The only problem I have with the machines - the only one - is Netflix.

Netflix causes both machines to lock up. Every time I've tried using Netflix, the machine plays the movie for a few minutes, then freezes. I have to re-boot at that point.

We have a really nice tradition in our home - Family Movie Night on Fridays. The Netflix on Tivo has messed that up twice....freezing machines, re-boots...stuff that has the kids looking to me and saying 'Dad? Why won't it work?'

My answer: it just doesn't. 

Fortunately, I have other options. I have a fast Sony Tower PC integrated into my home theatre, so I can watch Netflix over the internet instead. Or, I can watch Tivo'ed shows, DVD's, Blu-Ray, live TV, or - horrors - HD on Demand through my Verizon box.

With all these options, I don't ever plan to let Netflix on Tivo ruin another Friday Night Family Movie Night. 

Now don't get me wrong: I'm a big Tivo fan. Great company, great customer service, great product. The same is true of Netflix...I really enjoy it. But, I just think that for me, the marriage of the two products is a disaster.


----------



## moyekj

HD_Dude said:


> Fortunately, I have other options. I have a fast Sony Tower PC integrated into my home theatre, so I can watch Netflix over the internet instead.


 Problem is that the quality of Netflix streams to a PC is significantly worse than quality of TiVo Netflix streams. Because of this and against better judgment I tried TiVo/Netflix again on an S3 that I had to reboot before due to TiVo/Netflix induced freezing and sure enough on the 3rd stream it froze again and I had to reboot. I am now seriously considering buying a Blu Ray player with Netflix streaming capabilities so I can still get the good quality Netflix streams while avoiding this flaky TiVo/Netflix solution and associated freezes.


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## morac

I have a Sony Bravia Internet Video Link (DMX-NV1) and a PS3. Both can do Netflix and the video quality on all of them is similar. The PS3's interface is a lot better than both the TiVo's and the NV1, but it requires a disk which makes it less than ideal. With the NV1 I can use my TV's remote and it has a large buffer, but the interface is very slow and it doesn't show the still images during fast forward or rewind. If the TiVo's Netflix implementation was completely stable and worked better I would prefer it simply for ease of use, but as it is I prefer the NV1.


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## mikeyts

I have a TiVo Series3, Xbox and PS3 and, since I replaced my old Xbox with a new, unbelievably-much-quieter model, I prefer its interface to the other two. (I rarely chose to watch video on the old Xbox because I couldn't stand the noise and used TiVo for Netflix, with which I rarely had any problems). The Xbox Netflix GUI is roughly functionally equivalent to the PS3's, but it's superior to it in a few ways. First, you can press the remote PLAY key to start playback of any selected item from the title browser. Secondly, the way that the Xbox player handles TV series is a truly excellent piece of design. If you press PLAY on the title in the browser, it starts playing the episode you were last watching from where you left off, and if you'd finished that episode, it starts playing the next (in the TiVo player, when you select the series title it shows you an episode list, but with no indication of which episode you viewed last). The way the PS3 player handles TV series is better than TiVo (it knows the episode you were last watching) but not as good as the Xbox in that you have to drill down a couple of menu levels to see the episodes, strangely presented in a horizontal list of episode numbers, with only one episode title visible. Finally, I play games and watch Blu-ray discs on my PS3 and changing the disc to watch Netflix streaming is beyond annoying.


----------



## rcoates777

dsb411 said:


> Ive been having the pause/retrieve issue of late too. This is the first issue ive had since Netflix has been offered on TIVO. Its horribly annoying. I blame my ISP, Comcast, they really stink as I never have a consistant connection.


I've had "retrieving" problems with Netflix and my wireless TiVo ever since the service started. It was so bad that I seldom used it. My "speakeasy" speedtests show 15000+ kbs / 4600 kbs for download and upload respectively from my laptop which is further away from the router than the TiVo but I don't know what speed the TiVo is actually achieving.

Today I installed a hardwire Ethernet connection and had not a single "retrieving" issue. With wireless I got one every couple of minutes.

I used to see a TiVo signal strength indicator for the wireless but I can't locate that any more.

The Netflix people said that they don't have many reports of problems with "retrieving".

What does the "quality" indicator mean for the Netflix broadcasts? Is that a signal strength indicator?

Thanks,

Bob


----------



## HD_Dude

A few posts above, I mentioned Netflix doesn't work well enough to be useable on my S3, despite FIOS and a very fast, hardwired network.

So yesterday I got the Netflix disc for the PS3. Worked perfectly.

Picture quality was excellent, sound quality awesome. And, using the PS3 remote control, I could pause, rewind, resume...and most of all, the content was stable. No freezes, glitches, or issues at all.

Putting in the disc is fine. And I like the interface. Problem solved. 

Note to Tivo: don't worry about it. You do what you were intended to do, perfectly. When it comes to recording HD content year after year, you're the king. Don't sweat all this periferal stuff.


----------



## Glanzer

I have a Netflix enabled HDTV (Sony Bravia KDL-40W5100) and a TiVo HD. Before I got the TiVo we were watching Netflix streaming movies on our TV. With certain Netflix shows (not all, but some) it kept stopping every minute or two and resyncing and trying to catch up. The speakeasy Internet throughput tests showed a consistent 12,000+ Mbps download and 400k upload, so I thought the network and ISP were fine. Note that our house is hardwired for Internet in each room with Cat5e, and we have a GB router that connects everything to a Linux server that is then connected to the Roadrunner Internet modem. We've never had any problem with the network and we have multiple computers on the Internet throughout our house. We are not using wireless.

So... I called Sony support and worked with them for a while on the Netflix problem and they could not help me. I then called Netflix and received excellent support. The woman on the phone did all the normal things she could, then finally transferred me to 2nd level support. Through some experimentation Netflix support found that the problematic shows were only the HD ones; all the regular SD shows were fine. That seemed to indicate a bandwidth or throughput connection of some type on my home network or possibly to/from my ISP. Using that information I ran a network cable directly from my Roadrunner modem to the TV and the problem disappeared. So now I knew that the problem was somewhere in my home network. I eventually traced the problem to a network card (NIC) in my Linux gateway server that was set for 10 Mb Half Duplex. Apparently the NIC was not auto-configuring itself to 100 Mb Full Duplex when it synced with my router. To fix it I had to download a NIC utility from the manufacturer to change the card to 100 MB Full Duplex. WOW, what a difference! My speakeasy test now shows a consistent 28,000 Mbps download and over 500k upload. And it also fixed all my Netflix problems. I can now watch any Netflix HD movie on my TV or my Tivo with no problems.

So all of you who have stuttering and resyncing problems with Netflix, the first thing I'd do is bypass your wireless and try running a network cable directly to your Netflix device. If you're already hardwired then try running a network cable directly to your TiVo from your Internet modem. If that solves the problem then you know it's somewhere on your network. It might even be a bad network cable. Also, if you haven't updated the firmware in your network switch/router/cable mode/etc then be sure to do that.


----------



## rcoates777

One more thing that I forgot to include in my post #808 about my "retrieving" pauses with wireless TiVo.

After I went in and changed my TiVo configuration to a hardwired Ethernet I still had the problem. But I noticed that my USB connected wireless adapter was still flashing a lot while I was watching a show. (I had left it plugged in even after installing the hardwire.)

So I unplugged it and the show I was watching stopped dead in its tracks. So even though TiVo had told me it was using the new hardwire it really wasn't. I started up the show again and it worked great - obviously using my new Ethernet cable.

Management Summary: be sure to unplug the wireless adapter after you reconfigure.


----------



## markp99

Just started Netflix streaming to my TiVo S3 this week. Connected via Cat5 to my router via a switch.

Works like a charm! "HD" quality is a bit of a stretch, but certainly equal or better than DVD. I've had just a couple pause/retrieve instances around mid-day, no other network traffic in the house. 

We are liking this option very nicely to catch up on TV series and movies we've missed.

All other content is in my Blu-Ray queue.


----------



## dlfl

New issue for me just started today: Several times in the middle of a three different videos, it kicked completely back to the NPL list. No retreiving bars or any other indication of a problem before it suddenly does this. Plays fine after a restart. Anyone else seeing this behavior?


----------



## szurlo

dlfl said:


> New issue for me just started today: Several times in the middle of a three different videos, it kicked completely back to the NPL list. No retrieving bars or any other indication of a problem before it suddenly does this. Plays fine after a restart. Anyone else seeing this behavior?


Yes, I have had that happen a few times, but it is not a recent development. It happened to me the first time several months ago.


----------



## Max Camber

szurlo said:


> Yes, I have had that happen a few times, but it is not a recent development. It happened to me the first time several months ago.


I have experienced the same thing a few times, none recently. It seems to be fine on the second attempt so I assume it is a connection issue rather than something in the data.


----------



## flaminiom

I did some searching, but here's my question... it's more about networking, but with the high bandwidth Netflix app.

I've got the old 802.11b adapter on my TivoHD. 

If I understand correctly, I probably won't gain anything with a 802.11g adapter. Is this correct?

Is the data throughput a limitation of the Tivo, or the USB interface? 

If I work on my setup and get a strong 802.11b signal, that should be faster than my Internet can provide. If, however, the USB adapter bottle necks, and Tivo can transfer faster over Ethernet, I may finally bite the bullet and run cat-6 out there. Even the TV now has ethernet...


----------



## dlfl

flaminiom said:


> I did some searching, but here's my question... it's more about networking, but with the high bandwidth Netflix app.
> 
> I've got the old 802.11b adapter on my TivoHD.
> 
> If I understand correctly, I probably won't gain anything with a 802.11g adapter. Is this correct?
> 
> Is the data throughput a limitation of the Tivo, or the USB interface?
> 
> If I work on my setup and get a strong 802.11b signal, that should be faster than my Internet can provide. If, however, the USB adapter bottle necks, and Tivo can transfer faster over Ethernet, I may finally bite the bullet and run cat-6 out there. Even the TV now has ethernet...


Without fully understanding the technical details, there is a strong consensus in the posts on this forum that you need a wired internet connection for the best chance of good Netflix performance. I've seen no technical explanation for this but it's reality. There probably are people with wireless connections who get good performance (and they tend not to post since they aren't having problems). There definitely are people even with high speed wired connections who still have problems (and they do post).

My guess would be that 11g would be better than 11b if you have to stick with wireless. Do you have a computer with *wired* connection to your internet that you can use to test the download speed? Two good test sites are speedtest.net and testmy.net. If your download speeds are averaging less than 5 Mbps, you may have problems regardless of the wireless adapter you use.


----------



## bicker

dlfl said:


> Without fully understanding the technical details, there is a strong consensus in the posts on this forum that you need a wired internet connection for the best chance of good Netflix performance. I've seen no technical explanation for this but it's reality. There probably are people with wireless connections who get good performance (and they tend not to post since they aren't having problems).


One of the things I think a lot of us don't understand, until it is explained to us, is that if we're using wireless, our transmissions could be interfered with by transmissions from other folks using wireless. GREATLY SIMPLIFIED AND REDUCED IN DETAIL: There are about a dozen "channels" for wireless, but each channel substantially overlaps with four other channels. Also most folks are using only one of three of the available channels (think of them as top, middle and bottom, and this is the case, ostensibly because of the overlap I mentioned). Data collisions is the reason, I suspect, why a wired connection would be better, perhaps even if the wired connection is rated a little slower than the wireless connection.


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## flaminiom

Maybe to boil down my question...

Is the Tivo HD wireless even able to reach 802.11b capabilities? I thought I read somewhere it's bottle-necked by the Tivo hardware or the USB port or something.

I mean, I could work on my wireless network to get ~6 Mb/sec to the living room, but if that's pushing the limits of the Tivo, I should just run ethernet.


----------



## szurlo

flaminiom said:


> I did some searching, but here's my question... it's more about networking, but with the high bandwidth Netflix app.
> 
> I've got the old 802.11b adapter on my TivoHD.
> 
> If I understand correctly, I probably won't gain anything with a 802.11g adapter. Is this correct?
> 
> Is the data throughput a limitation of the Tivo, or the USB interface?
> 
> If I work on my setup and get a strong 802.11b signal, that should be faster than my Internet can provide. If, however, the USB adapter bottle necks, and Tivo can transfer faster over Ethernet, I may finally bite the bullet and run cat-6 out there. Even the TV now has ethernet...


The issue in the TiVo wireless VS wired debate is not as much about bandwidth as it is connection quality. Even the slowest wi-fi standard, 802.11b, at 11mbs, is as fast, or faster than the majority of residential internet connections and should be plenty fast enough to stream netflix content. The problem with wi-fi is the packet loss and latency resulting from all the environmental issues that can effect successful radio wave propagation and reception. Everything from antenna placement to building construction materials can effect your connection. I had a customer once who used to get wi-fi disconnects when they stood in certain areas of the office because of the effect their body had on the signal path. My wi-fi used to drop every time my 2.4GHz cordless phone handset would ring. Even if you move to 802.11n, which in theory would be faster then 100Mbs over CAT5, the same pit-falls of using radio transmitters and receivers to get your data to your TiVo still exist.


----------



## dlfl

flaminiom said:


> Maybe to boil down my question...
> 
> Is the Tivo HD wireless even able to reach 802.11b capabilities? I thought I read somewhere it's bottle-necked by the Tivo hardware or the USB port or something.
> 
> I mean, I could work on my wireless network to get ~6 Mb/sec to the living room, but if that's pushing the limits of the Tivo, I should just run ethernet.


The answer to your question may be different for Netflix streaming rather than other TiVo network operations (TTG and MRV) which probably are the context for what you mention reading elsewhere. There are lots of technical details and a full understanding of them is not available to us. What *bicker* and *szurlo* described above are just examples.

I recommend you "just run ethernet". Many posters have reported advantages for wired connections in all phases of TiVo operation. One of the complexities is that even if the TiVo itself is a bottleneck, it can still be less of a bottleneck when running with wired rather than wireless internet. In other words the "bottleneck" model is too simplistic.


----------



## flaminiom

I understand the technologies, and I'm trying to not frame this as wireless vs wired. Perhaps there is no answer to my question, or perhaps I misread something somewhere. 

My question is whether the Tivo has a hardware/software bottleneck when using the wireless adapter that prevents it from fully utilizing whatever the wireless link may allow. For the sake of the discussion, lets say I want 6 Mb/sec and the wifi link is capable of sustaining this. Could the wireless adapter support this, or would I have to do Ethernet as there may be limitations imposed by the USB and overhead to run the adapter.

Thx


----------



## szurlo

flaminiom said:


> I understand the technologies, and I'm trying to not frame this as wireless vs wired. Perhaps there is no answer to my question, or perhaps I misread something somewhere.
> 
> My question is whether the Tivo has a hardware/software bottleneck when using the wireless adapter that prevents it from fully utilizing whatever the wireless link may allow. For the sake of the discussion, lets say I want 6 Mb/sec and the wifi link is capable of sustaining this. Could the wireless adapter support this, or would I have to do Ethernet as there may be limitations imposed by the USB and overhead to run the adapter.
> 
> Thx


Sorry, I misunderstood what information you were actually in search of. I cant imagine that the issue could be the Tivo itself, since if we are to suggest that something internal to the tivo is maxing out the data xfer rate at less than say, 6mbs on the motherboard side of the USB port, then Tivo manufacturing and selling an 802.11g adapter would seem to be pointless. Was the 802.11b adapter a USB1.0 device maybe? USB 1.0 was what, 12mbs? I imagine that once you added overhead it would be possible that a best case 802.11b connection could actually saturate a USB 1.0 connection.


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## CrispyCritter

In practice, you do not get 6.0 Mbs out of TiVo wireless-b. In general you do out of wireless-g. You get even more speed out of using the TiVo brand adapter for wireless-g because your TiVo can off-load some of the CPU tasks onto its own adapter.

In general, the bottleneck is the TiVo and not the network, but wireless-b requires enough work out of the TiVo to slow it down under your 6Mbs threshold for most folks.


----------



## cjv2

szurlo said:


> Sorry, I misunderstood what information you were actually in search of. I cant imagine that the issue could be the Tivo itself, since if we are to suggest that something internal to the tivo is maxing out the data xfer rate at less than say, 6mbs on the motherboard side of the USB port, then Tivo manufacturing and selling an 802.11g adapter would seem to be pointless. Was the 802.11b adapter a USB1.0 device maybe? USB 1.0 was what, 12mbs? I imagine that once you added overhead it would be possible that a best case 802.11b connection could actually saturate a USB 1.0 connection.


"The early Series2 units, models starting with 110/130/140, have USB1.1 hardware, while all other systems have USB2.0."

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiVo. Yeah, I know wikipedia isn't authoritative for anything, but I ran into it and thought it might be of interest.


----------



## mikeyts

Maximum theoretical USB 2.0 throughput is 480 Mbps. In the real world no one ever sees that, but I have to believe that data throughput from TiVo's wireless adapter into TiVo greatly exceeds the maximum possible throughput of an 802.11b connection. Not the bottleneck.

I used to try to use 802.11g. With a popular Linksys router, the best connection to an internet speed test site that I could get to my PC in a room with the router some 6 to 8 feet of open space away from it was 5 Mbps and change, whereas I was paying for 15 Mbps cable internet service. When I replaced it with a Cat5e cable, I started seeing that 15 Mbps that I was expecting. I don't know why the wireless performance I was getting was so poor; perhaps the condo complex I was living in was a high noise environment. Whatever.

YMMV--there are probably some environments where an 11g connection will work well enough for stable streaming video and the chances that it will greatly increase if you go to 802.11n, replacing your TiVo adapter with a bridge. However, if you can run a cable to your router, I'd advise doing it. If you do it and you're still having problems, you can at least eliminate LAN connection speed and quality as a factor.


----------



## szurlo

mikeyts said:


> If you do it and you're still having problems, you can at least eliminate LAN connection speed and quality as a factor.


I don't think the OP really has a "problem". He is just trying to find out if there is some known limitation to the Tivo/USB Wi-Fi adapter combination that results is less than "normal" throughput so he can determine if there is any point in upgrading to the "g" adapter.


----------



## morac

The TiVo HD is capable of network speeds greater than 802.11b (~6 mbps in real-life) so in your case the 802.11b is the bottleneck. That said Netflix requires less than 6 mbps so 802.11b may be "good enough" for Netflix depending on your environment.

Wireless network bandwidth is shared, not just by devices on your network, but by devices on other networks that use the same channel as your network does. So if you have a neighbor downloading a large file on his network and you try stream network and you are on the same channel, you are likely to run into problems. You'll have similar problems if you try to download on a laptop while streaming Netflix. 

I'll mention that 802.11g and 802.11n increase the available bandwidth but only if you completely switch over to them. If you still have a 802.11b device on your network you lose the majority of the benefits of upgrading to g or n.


----------



## bicker

I've actually (hard-wire) bridged a 'n' router to a 'g' router, just to try to better capitalize on the best performance of each.... that'll work right?


----------



## morac

bicker said:


> I've actually (hard-wire) bridged a 'n' router to a 'g' router, just to try to better capitalize on the best performance of each.... that'll work right?


I haven't kept up on the n standard, but in the g standard in order to be backwards compatible with b, the standard needed to listen for b broadcast requests. This would slightly degrade performance if there were no b devices broadcasting and severely degrade performance if there. That's why I turned of b support on my g router.

I'm not sure if n has the same issues, but unless it's using a different frequency than g/b I would guess that it does.

As for your case, I think it depends on how far apart the n and g routers are. Considering I can pull in g signals from the next block over it might not make a difference. The easiest way to test is to take a g device and an n device and have them both transfer at the maximum speed and then see if the speeds on the n device are better or worse with the g router hooked up or not.


----------



## dlfl

flaminiom said:


> I understand the technologies, and I'm trying to not frame this as wireless vs wired. Perhaps there is no answer to my question, or perhaps I misread something somewhere.
> 
> My question is whether the Tivo has a hardware/software bottleneck when using the wireless adapter that prevents it from fully utilizing whatever the wireless link may allow. For the sake of the discussion, lets say I want 6 Mb/sec and the wifi link is capable of sustaining this. Could the wireless adapter support this, or would I have to do Ethernet as there may be limitations imposed by the USB and overhead to run the adapter.
> 
> Thx


So does your question relate to the thread topic (Netflix that is)?


----------



## pl1

Well, for anyone who says that you must not use any bandwidth if you want to watch Netflix on TiVo, and while that may be true with Tivo, it appears that the Samsung Blu-Ray player sets aside the bandwidth it needs when it needs it. In my case, I can see when it uses 4 Mbps for the movie, and leaves the rest for downloading, in my case 8 Mbps out of a total of 12 Mbps. Very similar to what goes on with VOIP when you set your router for highest priority.

I've been downloading a video at 12 Mbps for an hour or so, and watching a Netflix movie at the same time with no interruptions at all. I can see the bandwidth meter on Newsbin go from 12 Mbps to 8 Mbps, probably whenever the Samsung demands the bandwidth. Either way, they co-exist perfectly, which I can not say about the S3 with Netflix.


----------



## morac

pl1 said:


> Well, for anyone who says that you must not use any bandwidth if you want to watch Netflix on TiVo, and while that may be true with Tivo, it appears that the Samsung Blu-Ray player sets aside the bandwidth it needs when it needs it. In my case, I can see when it uses 4 Mbps for the movie, and leaves the rest for downloading, in my case 8 Mbps out of a total of 12 Mbps. Very similar to what goes on with VOIP when you set your router for highest priority.


It's not that you can't, it's that you have to be careful if you do (especially with TiVo) unless you have some kind of QOS set up on your router. Most consumer routers don't support QOS.


----------



## pl1

morac said:


> It's not that you can't, it's that you have to be careful if you do (especially with TiVo) unless you have some kind of QOS set up on your router. Most consumer routers don't support QOS.


My router does have that ability (it's just a $50 Linksys) but I only have that set for my voip phone. Never tried setting it up for TiVo. But, I'm guessing that the Samsung player is controlling available bandwidth on it's own.

Edit: What I meant, was, to me it appears that the bandwidth issue is TiVo specific, not Netflix specific.


----------



## jonra

I'm on a wired, cat5, off a router & a couple switches. netflix & multi room works great on all 3 TivoHDs. We're able to get great to very good quality on HD & SD. We're on comcast internet.


----------



## bicker

Uh, FWIW, my relatively inexpensive Netgear router supported QOS. I had no idea what to do with it, but I did see the settings there.


----------



## pdhenry

QOS settings on a router allocate upstream bandwidth, not downstream. Coordinating what various remote data sources do would be more involved.


----------



## pl1

pdhenry said:


> QOS settings on a router allocate upstream bandwidth, not downstream. Coordinating what various remote data sources do would be more involved.


Not disputing what you say, but when I am on the phone, I thought I remembered my download speed being slowed down a bit as well. Is it?
Here is what my Linksys says:



> Two types of Quality of Service features are available, Wired QoS which controls devices plugged in to the router with a Ethernet cable, and Wireless QoS, which control devices that are wirelessly connected to the router.
> 
> Wired QoS
> 
> Device Priority : You may specify priority for all traffic from a device on your network by giving the device a Device Name, specifying priority and entering its MAC address.
> 
> Ethernet Port Priority : You may control your data rate according to which physical LAN port your device is plugged into. You may assign High or Low priority to data traffic from devices connected on LAN ports 1 through 4.
> 
> Application Priority : You may control your data rate with respect to the application that is consuming bandwidth. Check Optimize Gaming Applications to automatically allow common game application ports to have a higher priority. You may customize up to eight applications by entering the port number they use.
> 
> Wireless QoS
> 
> Wireless QoS is also referred to as Wi-Fi MultiMediaTM (WMM) by the Wi-Fi AllianceTM. Select Enable to utilize WMM if you are using other wireless devices that are also WMM certified.


----------



## szurlo

pl1 said:


> Not disputing what you say, but when I am on the phone, I thought I remembered my download speed being slowed down a bit as well. Is it?
> Here is what my Linksys says:


Notice those descriptions use the phrase "You may specify priority for all traffic *from* a device on your network".

Also, if you look at the very top of the Linksys QoS setup screen you'll see where you specify the _upstream_ bandwidth your ISP provides. There is no place to specify downstream (or at least not on mine). I guess it's possible that you'd see your downloads slow down a bit though, possibly due to acknowledgments from your machine back up to the download source taking a backseat to your upstream VOIP traffic. So upstream QoS could indirectly affect downstream traffic.


----------



## pl1

szurlo said:


> Notice those descriptions use the phrase "You may specify priority for all traffic *from* a device on your network".
> 
> Also, if you look at the very top of the Linksys QoS setup screen you'll see where you specify the _upstream_ bandwidth your ISP provides. There is no place to specify downstream (or at least not on mine). I guess it's possible that you'd see your downloads slow down a bit though, possibly due to acknowledgments from your machine back up to the download source taking a backseat to your upstream VOIP traffic. So upstream QoS could indirectly affect downstream traffic.


What I notice, is that as soon as I pick up the phone, my DL speed slows down a little. I just assumed that the terminal adapter was making room for what it needed. No big deal, either way. Just curious.


----------



## flaminiom

szurlo said:


> I don't think the OP really has a "problem". He is just trying to find out if there is some known limitation to the Tivo/USB Wi-Fi adapter combination that results is less than "normal" throughput so he can determine if there is any point in upgrading to the "g" adapter.


Thx



dlfl said:


> So does your question relate to the thread topic (Netflix that is)?


In my original post I prefaced my question as being peripheral to Netflix. Essentially I'm evaluating my options for my own network for improving Netflix streaming to the Tivo or perhaps a different device.


----------



## bongoherbert

Add me to the ever-growing number of folks who has much better success with wired over wireless ethernet. 

I did a little analysis- I have a connection that exceeds the 5Mb 'requirements' for HD. I can get well over 10Mb/sec (about 700KB or so) and was experiencing frequent buffering of HD content when connected with the "G" adapter (I have a brand new, disk-sleep-soft-reboot-failing, HD XL w/ a brand new TiVo G adapter).

Non-HD content was no problem at all over the wireless. Monitoring the network during playback showed about 200KB sustained traffic. 

When I would play back HD content (right now, we're watching Man On Wire, highly recommended  there were very frequent pause/rebuffering. The surprising thing was that my connection to the Internet was blazing away at 700/800KB/s effortlessly, then there'd be a big burst over the wireless connection (1.2MB or so), then a subsequent burst over the connection to the Internet, then the movie would pause. It was a quite interesting pattern of behavior. 

For fun, I paused the HD show to see how many seconds the player seemed to buffer, it appeared to be only 3-4 seconds before the stream from Netflix dropped to zero. So that certainly seems to be an issue. 

Bottom line, wired connection seems to be flawless.


----------



## pl1

bongoherbert said:


> Add me to the ever-growing number of folks who has much better success with wired over wireless ethernet.
> 
> I did a little analysis- I have a connection that exceeds the 5Mb 'requirements' for HD. I can get well over 10Mb/sec (about 700KB or so) and was experiencing frequent buffering of HD content when connected with the "G" adapter (I have a brand new, disk-sleep-soft-reboot-failing, HD XL w/ a brand new TiVo G adapter).
> 
> Non-HD content was no problem at all over the wireless. Monitoring the network during playback showed about 200KB sustained traffic.
> 
> When I would play back HD content (right now, we're watching Man On Wire, highly recommended  there were very frequent pause/rebuffering. The surprising thing was that my connection to the Internet was blazing away at 700/800KB/s effortlessly, then there'd be a big burst over the wireless connection (1.2MB or so), then a subsequent burst over the connection to the Internet, then the movie would pause. It was a quite interesting pattern of behavior.
> 
> For fun, I paused the HD show to see how many seconds the player seemed to buffer, it appeared to be only 3-4 seconds before the stream from Netflix dropped to zero. So that certainly seems to be an issue.
> 
> Bottom line, wired connection seems to be flawless.


I do not have a wireless connection to my TiVo. But, I can say, that my solution has worked for me. I stopped using TiVo for Netflix, period.

Last night, I downloaded a movie from Amazon to my TiVo, at the same time I streamed a Netflix movie with my Sanyo DVD player. Not one pause, no buffers, and no failures of any kind.

At this point, it would surprise me if there was an issue streaming netflix with my DVD player. With TiVo, it was a surprise if there wasn't an interruption.

But, that's just my personal experience with it.


----------



## rustyshackelford

hi - just adding my recent happening with netflix and one of my hd tivos. both are ota and ethernet hardwired through my router. one day this week all of a sudden the netflix instant quit playing in normal replay speed on one of my tivos. i could see the image with a single fast forward or a double fast forward click but not on normal replay speed. i swapped out the tivos and found my trouble to be my 30' hdmi cable. the hdmi cable worked fine for live tv, stuff i already had recorded, you tube, but not netflix as of monday, but it definitely did work for netflix last week. i had 2 hdmi leads and i tried both of them and neither worked in any of the tvs hdmi inputs. when i switched from hdmi to s-video the picture was back on. i know its not the hdmi output on the suspect unit because i swapped out that tivo into another room and used the hdmi cable that was on the other tv. so i guess it must be either the long hdmi cable or the tv causing this problem? does anyone know if netflix is doing anything different lately? any ideas?


----------



## bongoherbert

I spoke too soon. Even though I'm hardwired and have -more- than enough bandwidth I had the Netflix software crash right at the dramatic conclusion of the movie we were watching tonight. I looked at the traffic logs as it was hanging and the network continued to feed the TiVo for about another minute while it was crash(ed/ing). 

Furthermore, while I was waiting for the TiVo to reboot I was able to watch it on my laptop, 600K/sec, not a glitch. 

I'm really disappointed in the quality of the Netflix player on the TiVo so far.


----------



## CrispyCritter

bongoherbert said:


> I spoke too soon. Even though I'm hardwired and have -more- than enough bandwidth I had the Netflix software crash right at the dramatic conclusion of the movie we were watching tonight. I looked at the traffic logs as it was hanging and the network continued to feed the TiVo for about another minute while it was crash(ed/ing).
> 
> Furthermore, while I was waiting for the TiVo to reboot I was able to watch it on my laptop, 600K/sec, not a glitch.
> 
> I'm really disappointed in the quality of the Netflix player on the TiVo so far.


Since everybody was encountering it last night, it was pretty clearly a problem on Netflix's servers. TiVo still shouldn't have crashed given those problems. Note that laptops and TiVo get served from different servers and encodings, so often won't go down at the same time.


----------



## pl1

CrispyCritter said:


> TiVo still shouldn't have crashed given those problems.


Precisely. AAMOF, I believe the lockups and reboots I have had in the past caused a problem with my cableCARD and my hard drive. Or it is surely a curious cooincidence.


----------



## dlfl

Yeah, last night may have been special -- I had two lockups requiring me to power cycle my TiVo when I tried to restart two different Netflix titles, both of which had played fine one or two days earlier. This was around 11pm Eastern time. The diffference must be network traffic and/or server traffic.


----------



## csdunlap

Not sure what is going on right now. After moving to a wired connection things have been good. But tonight nothing is working. Movies that played yesterday won't play today. I have tried power cycling. Still not helping. Netflix streaming seems to be broke at the moment.


----------



## csdunlap

Hmm well other box is working so now I am confused.


----------



## dlfl

csdunlap said:


> Hmm well other box is working so now I am confused.


Is the "other box" another TiVo ?


----------



## csdunlap

The other box was a TIVO HD as well. In the end it turns out the other box started to stall as well and eventually just stopped. That is hard wired as well. I tried the PS3 which is wireless and the whole movie played without hiccup. 

I think I may start using my PS3 from now on when it comes to Netflix streaming. I love my TIVO but it is very flaky when it comes to Netflix streaming.


----------



## orangeboy

csdunlap said:


> The other box was a TIVO HD as well. In the end it turns out the other box started to stall as well and eventually just stopped. That is hard wired as well. I tried the PS3 which is wireless and the whole movie played without hiccup.
> 
> I think I may start using my PS3 from now on when it comes to Netflix streaming. I love my TIVO but it is very flaky when it comes to Netflix streaming.


Does the PS3 support HD streams? I've heard there are different servers for different platforms, with PC applications not supporting HD. I don't know what category the PS3 falls under.


----------



## mikeyts

orangeboy said:


> Does the PS3 support HD streams? I've heard there are different servers for different platforms, with PC applications not supporting HD. I don't know what category the PS3 falls under.


I'd guess that the PC application, based on Silverlight 2.0, _could_ support HD resolution encodings, but they don't offer them. This is possibly due to IP holder paranoia concerning the theft of "high value" HD content as provided to PCs. Whatever .

To answer your question, yes, there are high-def (720p24) PS3 encodings. All of the other embedded devices (i.e., everything except for the PC) use the same set of VC-1 w/stereo WMA encodings; the PS3 has its own set of AVC w/DD2.0 encodings. The PS3 is playing Netflix streaming video from the context of Blu-ray disc playback; I suspect that it can't handle the encodings used by the other players in that context.


----------



## rocko

orangeboy said:


> Does the PS3 support HD streams? I've heard there are different servers for different platforms, with PC applications not supporting HD. I don't know what category the PS3 falls under.


To throw in my 2 cents - the MCE Netflix implementation on Windoze 7 appears to stream HD. I have my PC's HDMI video connection (ATI Radeon HD 4200) hooked to my Samsung 32" LCD. "Lost" looks swell.


----------



## pl1

rocko said:


> To throw in my 2 cents - the MCE Netflix implementation on Windoze 7 appears to stream HD. I have my PC's HDMI video connection (ATI Radeon HD 4200) hooked to my Samsung 32" LCD. "Lost" looks swell.


When I do get a movie in HD, it always says "HD" in the preliminary "retrieving" guage, so I have to assume you could tell for sure that way (if that message really means you are getting HD quality).


----------



## mikeyts

rocko said:


> To throw in my 2 cents - the MCE Netflix implementation on Windoze 7 appears to stream HD. I have my PC's HDMI video connection (ATI Radeon HD 4200) hooked to my Samsung 32" LCD. "Lost" looks swell.


At their best the PC player encodings aren't horrible and I'll agree that it looks pretty good, but I just compared the first episode of _Lost: Season 5_ running on the PC to the same content running on my Xbox, TiVo and PS3 and all the embedded players, equal to one another, are a clear step above in PQ.

My PC is a 2.5 MHz Intel quad core processor (Q8300) with 6 MB of memory and motherboard graphics running 64-bit Win7, connected to my 46" 1080p panel via an HDMI output and to my receiver via optical S/PDIF. I doubt that your superior graphics card is a factor in this, since my motherboard chip has a full set of video decoding accelerators and the machine plays 1080p video files beautifully; it _would_ kick my PC's ass running a 3D videogame (which I never do or I'd probably buy a halfway decent card ). Xbox, TiVo and PS3 are connected to my panel with HDMI routed through my receiver. I have 15 Mbps cable internet service with the PC and all devices hard wired to my router; I always get and sustain an HD connection on TiVo and Xbox (the PS3 player can't indicate stream quality ).

As I stated, the PC version looks good--much better than most Netflix streams I've watched on the PC--but markedly less sharp than the Xbox, TiVo and PS3. Unfortunately it would be difficult to compare what I'm seeing and what you're seeing. At first I thought that Media Center playback was a bit better than the web plug-in at Netflix's site, but after further experimentation they seem to be about the same. Obviously PCs are capable of streaming HD--mine plays this 1080p IIS Smooth Streaming example clip at its 4.9 Mbps maximum bit rate without a bobble (I'm always amazed by that clip; 1080p24 with DD5.1 at 4.9 Mbps, looks and sounds great. It would be wonderful if Netflix offered content in streams like that--I'd pay a reasonable premium for it).

EDIT: I've speculated that Netflix doesn't do HD streaming to PCs because of IP holder paranoia, but on reflection it seems just as likely that they don't do it because it helps their CE partners who've embedded players in their products.


----------



## shirriff

I've been using streaming Netflix on my Tivo HD reliably for several months, but the last few days, I can't play anything: the queue list shows up fine, I get the Retrieving dialog, and then just a gray screen, no audio or video. The Tivo seems to think it's playing: I can pause and fast forward and it shows the on-screen indicators, and the time advances, but no video or audio. Strangely, when fast forwarding, I get fixed thumbnail pictures from the video stream, but then back to gray when it tries to play.

I tried other video on demand on the Tivo (e.g. YouTube) and that worked fine. I tried Netflix on my PC and that worked fine. I tried rebooting the Tivo and that didn't help. My Netflix queue shows up fine. Netflix online shows that I "watched" the shows that I attempted to watch on the Tivo. So the Tivo and Netflix are communicating, but the video is not showing up. I tried unregistering the Tivo with Netflix and re-registering, but that didn't help.

I'm using Ethernet (not wireless) with Comcast as the ISP. I tried power-cycling the routers and cable modem, but that didn't make a difference.

Any suggestions?


----------



## cburbs

dlfl said:


> New issue for me just started today: Several times in the middle of a three different videos, it kicked completely back to the NPL list. No retreiving bars or any other indication of a problem before it suddenly does this. Plays fine after a restart. Anyone else seeing this behavior?


I had this happen a few times as well. I have it wired so I am not sure what the issue is.

I am testing a movie right now again - kids are watching something but I will see if I get the rebuffer or the back to the NPL.

Right now my setup - Router To Switch to Tivo.


----------



## dlfl

cburbs said:


> I had this happen a few times as well. I have it wired so I am not sure what the issue is.
> 
> I am testing a movie right now again - kids are watching something but I will see if I get the rebuffer or the back to the NPL.
> 
> Right now my setup - Router To Switch to Tivo.


I haven't had that particular problem again since 5 January. Had to reboot the TiVo a couple of times one night but other than that OK.


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## cburbs

Actually the movie buffered twice in the beginning but that was it. But I was using utorrent at the time so I shut that off and then it was fine.


----------



## areeda

I'm seeing the lock up problem and another curious one.

I'll select something from my Instant Queue and get a "communications error, please try again". Try as I might, it doesn't matter how many times or seemingly how long I wait (up to 30 min) it won't play that show. But I can select another show, even another episode on the same DVD and that one works fine.

While this is happening, I can show youtube videos on the same DVR and my computers show no network problems.

Oh and while I'm *****ing and moaning about free downloads from netflix, it sure would be nice if a bit more buffering could be implemented. The "what did he say" button takes so long it's almost useless and the "retrieving" messages popping up at random times is annoying. Faster Internet is on order, we'll see if that helps.

Joe


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## dlfl

There are a variety of problems that I think are all tied to TiVo not being robust to glitches in the internet signals. I suppose it's also possible that Netflix deserves some of the blame for a poor TiVo interface implementation.


----------



## areeda

dlfl said:


> There are a variety of problems that I think are all tied to TiVo not being robust to glitches in the internet signals. I suppose it's also possible that Netflix deserves some of the blame for a poor TiVo interface implementation.


I'm not convinced that all the network glitches are on my end. I find the problem is much more prevalent at certain times of day, like early evening. As far as I can tell, our Internet connection is solid. I'm wondering whether or not server load is also an issue.

I do agree with you, more robust networking and a bit more buffering would probably solve it.

Joe


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## Karl Childers

I have a refurbished HD unit connected to a hard-wired Internet connection provided by Comcast (avg download speed ~ 10.78 Mbps) and I have never had any issues with streaming Netflix content.

The ONLY issue I've experienced to date is my Instant Queue list will not appear at times. Simply waiting a few moments and refreshing the screen by going back and then forward again usually resolves this minor issue.

From my experience, I feel it is safe to say that most Netflix streaming issues can be directly traced to issues on the home network. However, I could be wrong; it's just my humble opinion.


----------



## pl1

Karl Childers said:


> From my experience, I feel it is safe to say that most Netflix streaming issues can be directly traced to issues on the home network. However, I could be wrong; it's just my humble opinion.


I have had two Orig S3's that locked up and rebooted while watching Netflix. I recently purchased a THD and will not even try it. Switching to a Samsung Blu-Ray with Netflix works perfectly. So, there goes the home network theory.


----------



## shirriff

I investigated my "Netflix gray screen" problem above. I got a new Tivo box, and the behavior was exactly the same (gray screen with Netflix streaming). With more investigation I found out that streaming works just fine with the RCA audio/video outputs, but if I plug in a HDMI TV, the screen goes to gray for streaming. Everything except Netflix streaming works fine with HDMI. It's a bit puzzling; maybe they use different streaming encoding for HDMI? Unfortunately, since I can't get the Tivo to work, I think I'll get a different device to stream Netflix.


----------



## susandennis

I have one TiVo connected to the TV via HDMI and one via RCA cables. When I hit the gray screen Netflix on one, I flip to the other. 4 times out of 5, if it's on one, it's on the other and that 5th time? half the time it's HDMI and half the time it's RCA. I did have a Roku box for a while and never had an issue. 

Sometimes, lately, I can get the Netflix streaming without issues. Not often but sometimes so there is minor progress.


----------



## mikeyts

shirriff said:


> I investigated my "Netflix gray screen" problem above. I got a new Tivo box, and the behavior was exactly the same (gray screen with Netflix streaming). With more investigation I found out that streaming works just fine with the RCA audio/video outputs, but if I plug in a HDMI TV, the screen goes to gray for streaming. Everything except Netflix streaming works fine with HDMI. It's a bit puzzling; maybe they use different streaming encoding for HDMI? Unfortunately, since I can't get the Tivo to work, I think I'll get a different device to stream Netflix.


I feel certain that they don't use different encodings for HDMI. It is an interesting observation, though. I have to think that a great number of us are using HDMI with both TiVo S3 and TiVo HD without ever having seen the gray screen problem, so it's not as simple as that (though it may be, in your situation).


----------



## Resist

Since taking my Series 3 Tivo off the Tivo wireless G network adapter and connecting it directly to my wireless router via the Ethernet cable, I have much less Netflix issues. It actually seems to be working like it is supposed to now, with much less lag.


----------



## jafi

dlfl said:


> There are a variety of problems that I think are all tied to TiVo not being robust to glitches in the internet signals. I suppose it's also possible that Netflix deserves some of the blame for a poor TiVo interface implementation.


I also have a Roku box - I've never had a Netflix issue. Anytime I hit a program that the Tivo won't play I switch over to the Roku which plays it just fine.

When the Tivo starts rebuffering ("receiving") all the time I switch to Roku and there are no problems.

The Roku also doesn't run into the aspect ratio. On the Tivo I have to back all the way out of Netflix to change the aspect ratio (Full, zoom, panel).

The Roku also tracks which episodes of a series I've watched - how much of an episode, and will stay at the last movie I was watching unless there's been a power cycle or software update. Plus the fact that Roku numbers the Netflix queue makes it easier to know how far down the queue you need to go to find a title.

I've also played with Netflix on a Samsung blu-ray and not experienced any of the Tivo issues.

I just prefer to keep the Roku in a different room, and I have an older TV that's short on connectors so I have to swap it out with the DVD or Tivo to hook to the TV.

Both my Roku and Tivo are wireless on my home network - Qwest DSL with a PK5000 router recently replacing a 2wire version. No net difference in Tivo behavior. I even unhooked everything else from my network - so the Tivo was the only thing being assigned an IP address - no change.

So I tend to think it's unlikely that Netflix gets assigned any meaningful percentage of Tivo issues


----------



## drew68

Hello, new user here, just thought I would share my experience with tivo and netflix. 

Purchased a refurbished Tivo HD a few weeks ago and tried to watch a netflix show. Immediately crashed the tivo with the familiar unplug necessary to get it going again. Started cruising google to find out what was going on and happened across this thread. Determined not to give up I tried repeatedly all with the same result, crashed tivo, unplug. 

My set up is tivo on a wireless adapter to a netgear router with 5mb service from charter communications. Nothing I did seemed to matter still ended up unplugging and restarting whenever the screen would freeze or go black. Upon restart everything always worked as usual although I did have to redo the tivo software once. 

I had read on the tivo website about a netgear router that they were known to have issues with but I disregard because it was a different model than the one I have, but after trying everything I could think of I decided to check out the netgear website and lo and behold a firmware update had been released for mine. Did the update and have had not a single problem with netflix since. Have watched several programs, have watched a movie and recorded to the tivo at the same time, have watched a movie while using my computer at the same time. It all seems to work well. I can't believe the difference. 

I write this in the hopes that someone else will update the firmware to their router and it will fix their problems as well.


----------



## pl1

drew68 said:


> I write this in the hopes that someone else will update the firmware to their router and it will fix their problems as well.


Great news for others in the same situation as you, but, I seriously have a problem with the fact that the TiVo locks up requiring an unplug, PERIOD, regardless of the reason. It has happened to me on two of my TiVo's and I'm hard-wired to a linksys router. The fix for me was to stop using Netflix on my TiVo. I use my Blu-Ray player instead. Since then, I've never had the problem either!


----------



## gonefishin

Netflix STILL doesn't stream DD5.1?????


I love my Tivo...I really do.


But the new box, no streaming, no DD5.1 on Netflix...

...I can't see them being around for much longer with this vision they have (look at XM radio)


One mad Tivo owner!
dan


----------



## mikeyts

gonefishin said:


> Netflix STILL doesn't stream DD5.1?????
> 
> I love my Tivo...I really do.
> 
> But the new box, no streaming, no DD5.1 on Netflix...
> 
> ...I can't see them being around for much longer with this vision they have (look at XM radio)


I'm sorry, but what do you think that TiVo can do about Netflix not having digital surround sound on their streams? There's no digital surround sound on Netflix streams as played by any other device and Netflix streaming video is a product of Netflix, not TiVo.


----------



## morac

mikeyts said:


> I'm sorry, but what do you think that TiVo can do about Netflix not having digital surround sound on their streams? There's no digital surround sound on Netflix streams as played by any other device and Netflix streaming video is a product of Netflix, not TiVo.


5.1 audio and closed captioning is coming to Netflix later this year. We'll have to wait and see if TiVo updates their HME app to support it when it does.


----------



## gonefishin

mikeyts said:


> I'm sorry, but what do you think that TiVo can do about Netflix not having digital surround sound on their streams? There's no digital surround sound on Netflix streams as played by any other device and Netflix streaming video is a product of Netflix, not TiVo.


 I am starting to believe that the vision of the company is impaired, to say the least. Couple that with the short comings of what the current Tivo box will do compared to what it's capable absolutely floors me.

I do believe the current Tivo platform is certainly a capable device. But there are some definite aspects that, I believe, are going to hurt Tivo in the future when compared to what other devices will offer.

Some of the things that I believe will hurt Tivo going forward is having a guided DVR device that only has two tuners, this isn't 2003 anymore.

I also believe that passing up on offering a streaming option for customers is a mistake as well. You've got entertainment computers that are designed to operate in the living room, you've got decent laptops that are also capable of streaming from the internet to your Tv. You have also got some televisions that are building streaming capabilities into the Tv (about time!) IMO, what Tv's should do is add a second tuner and an eSATA port for an external harddrive to top it off.

Tivo could have even come to a compromise with the full streaming request and just come to an agreement with Hulu would have been a nice move. I mean heck, you can even browse the internet with a Wii console.

Like I've said...I do like my Tivo. But I believe that their misguided vision doesn't look good for the future of a device that's capable of setting the pace in video instead of following everyone. This device is capable of so much more than Tivo is offering...and you couple this with the crippled Netflix streaming audio and I believe that the Tivo box just has another strike against it going into the future.

I would like to see Tivo go far into the future...and I believe Tivo is missing an opportune time to lead all the companies (cable, sat) into the future and let them follow what Tivo _could_ do going into the future. But instead of setting the path that everyone will follow they fall right in line.

Netflix is an asset to Tivo. The better they perform and the better product Netflix could put out is better for Tivo. Conversely, when Netflix falls short in certain aspects it hurts Tivo as well as Netflix. So yes...I think the performance of Netflix is relivant to the outlook of Tivo.

thanks for your time,
dan


----------



## gonefishin

morac said:


> 5.1 audio and closed captioning is coming to Netflix later this year. We'll have to wait and see if TiVo updates their HME app to support it when it does.


 I remember that Netflix said they were coming out with DD5.1 soon, this was back when I first got Netflix. It looks like things are finally coming around.

This is good news...thanks!
dan


----------



## bicker

gonefishin said:


> I am starting to believe that the vision of the company is impaired, to say the least.


Words are cheap; vision isn't. I think you're grossly underestimating the reality of business. Sometimes there simply is no feasible way of doing what's "best" from a purist standpoint. TiVo has obligations that go far above and beyond the technical.


----------



## sriggins

bicker said:


> Words are cheap; vision isn't. I think you're grossly underestimating the reality of business. Sometimes there simply is no feasible way of doing what's "best" from a purist standpoint. TiVo has obligations that go far above and beyond the technical.


Of course, but that doesn't make me have to give them a free pass. Just as business is unfair, it is fair. It balances the market. If they can't figure out how to be truly different and be a viable business, then they'll just lose customers one way or another.


----------



## bicker

It isn't our place to either give, or not give, them a "free pass". Our role is to either purchase their products and services, or decline their offerings. Questioning their strategic direction, without accepting reasonable parameters within which such a strategic direction must be contained, due to reality, is unreasonable. (If you call "being reasonable" in your appraisal giving them a "free pass", then I guess you should give them a "free pass".)

And yes, you are allowed to be unreasonable.


----------



## gonefishin

bicker said:


> Words are cheap; vision isn't. I think you're grossly underestimating the reality of business. Sometimes there simply is no feasible way of doing what's "best" from a purist standpoint. TiVo has obligations that go far above and beyond the technical.


 I am looking at this from a business point of view. To me, it looks like the current Tivo team is happy traveling along the bottom and just getting by (as a business). I believe they currently have a passing opportunity to become (once again) relevant as a business and as an electronic device or they will have an increasingly difficult time trying to tread water as everyone passes them by.

What it looks like to me...is that they're afraid to take a chance in order to give their business the opportunity to succeed.

but...that's just what I'm seeing. 
dan


----------



## bicker

gonefishin said:


> I am looking at this from a business point of view. To me, it looks like the current Tivo team is happy traveling along the bottom and just getting by (as a business).


Then you haven't been paying attention, because, they're not really "getting by".



gonefishin said:


> I believe they currently have a passing opportunity to become (once again) relevant as a business and as an electronic device or they will have an increasingly difficult time trying to tread water as everyone passes them by.


Where is this additional capital infusion you seem to think that they have access to?



gonefishin said:


> What it looks like to me...is that they're afraid to take a chance in order to give their business the opportunity to succeed.


You cannot take a chance when you don't have enough chips to pay the ante.


----------



## gonefishin

Oh my...



bicker said:


> Then you haven't been paying attention, because, they're not really "getting by".


 You misinterpreted my statement. When I say that I believe they are happy bouncing along the bottom and just getting by, I do not imply that there must be an upward trend in the companies business margins. Maybe I should have replaced "getting by" with maintaining their status quo. A company can maintain their normal operations while making a steady decent.

You cannot take a chance when you don't have enough chips to pay the ante. [/QUOTE]

Do you believe Tivo will bring in more money staying on it's current course? It will have to make a change larger than working with Best Buy. Tivo is a company that will survive or perish on innovation (something they've lost sight of).

Do you think staying the course will offer something other than further decline?

I am actually pulling for Tivo to get their act together and come out of this. My point is that their opportunities will be fewer in the near future.

g'day,
dan


----------



## bicker

gonefishin said:


> You misinterpreted my statement. When I say that I believe they are happy bouncing along the bottom and just getting by, I do not imply that there must be an upward trend in the companies business margins. Maybe I should have replaced "getting by" with maintaining their status quo. A company can maintain their normal operations while making a steady decent.


I think you're way off-course though, because you're assuming that there is a profitable business case to be made for STBs and DVRs. That's not clear. Motorola thinks the marketplace sucks so much that they're trying to dump that division. Digeo failed. And so on.

So by focusing on the DVRs, themselves, and saying something about TiVo as a company, you're missing 90% of the big picture.



gonefishin said:


> You cannot take a chance when you don't have enough chips to pay the ante.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you believe Tivo will bring in more money staying on it's current course?
Click to expand...

Your reply is non-sequitur to the comment you replied to. If you cannot pay the ante, then you don't have an option to take the risk. Period. Business is not just cost and revenue -- it is also many other factors, and in this case the one you're not considering is cash flow.


----------



## gonefishin

Well, I think we have about run our course here. So I'll try and leave this as my last few words on the topic.



bicker said:


> I think you're way off-course though, because you're assuming that there is a profitable business case to be made for STBs and DVRs. That's not clear. Motorola thinks the marketplace sucks so much that they're trying to dump that division. Digeo failed. And so on.
> 
> So by focusing on the DVRs, themselves, and saying something about TiVo as a company, you're missing 90% of the big picture.


 The opportunity that I believe Tivo is missing is that they need to move away from being a DVR company and setting the pace into the next generation of devices that utilize the internet. Connectivity should be more than a new search interface and streaming capabilites that's being built into gaming consoles, Tv's and Blu-Ray players.

I'm not focusing at all on DVR's!

I'm not sure why you keep misinterpreting my posts, I must not be making myself clear. You take issue with "Tivo bumping along the bottom and "just getting by"", yet you mention that I haven't been paying attention because Tivo is not "getting by". So you're arguing that we're both saying that Tivo is having troubles???

Then you bring this "DVR only" argument and that I'm missing the big picture. I've been saying that Tivo is missing an opportunity by focusing too much on DVR only. I made mention that many devices are soon going to pass them by in streaming capabilities. Yet you say that *I'm* focusing on "DVR only"???

I'm sorry...I'm just not interested in bickering with you.

have a nice day,
dan


----------



## Javelin3o4

I'am also having my TiVo lock up constantly when using Netflix. If I didnt have to pay for Xbox live membership I would just use Netflix on my Xbox. But its seriously irritating to constantly having to unplug/plug in my Tivo.

My Tivo is hardwired to my router which is actually right next to the tivo.


----------



## bicker

gonefishin said:


> I'm not sure why you keep misinterpreting my posts, I must not be making myself clear.


Perhaps we simply don't talk the same language, since you didn't respond, whatsoever, to the point I made about TiVo not having limitless resources to do whatever you want them to do.


----------



## cburbs

cburbs said:


> I had this happen a few times as well. I have it wired so I am not sure what the issue is.
> 
> I am testing a movie right now again - kids are watching something but I will see if I get the rebuffer or the back to the NPL.
> 
> Right now my setup - Router To Switch to Tivo.


I had this happen again yesterday...locked up 3 times where it went back to the main screen where I have to select Netflix....

Why does it get kicked back to that screen?

My setup Dlink DIR655 -> Netgear Gigabit Switch -> Tivo.....

Any settings I can change on my Dlink that might help out?

**** just realized there is a firmware upgrade so I will give that a try.


----------



## morac

bicker said:


> Perhaps we simply don't talk the same language, since you didn't respond, whatsoever, to the point I made about TiVo not having limitless resources to do whatever you want them to do.


TiVo doesn't have limitless resources, but I'll point out that they do spend a hefty chunk of change on R&D. $60 million a year isn't as much as a fortune 500 company spends, but it's nothing to sneeze at.


----------



## bicker

True, and they are indeed doing a lot of work, for that money, already.


----------



## bowlingblogger

cburbs said:


> My setup Dlink DIR655 -> Netgear Gigabit Switch -> Tivo.....
> 
> Any settings I can change on my Dlink that might help out?
> 
> **** just realized there is a firmware upgrade so I will give that a try.


Hi, I have also have a DIR-655, and the Tivo is routed to it through a switch--quite similar to your setup. AFAIK our Netflix is working fine; I haven't gotten kicked back out to the main screen in a while (several months at least). I have the newest firmware (1.33NA). I have the QOS engine enabled, and it seems to help--the DIR-655 is supposed to automatically prioritize video packets. I have left all of the QOS settings at default, except for "Dynamic Fragmentation," which I have unchecked because I have a decent upload speed (about 1.5 Mbps). I've read that if your uplink is greater than 256 kbps you shouldn't enable this function. I have also manually entered my uplink speed instead of letting the DIR-655 determine it, because it highballed my speed big-time, rendering the QOS engine useless (at least I think that's what would happen).

Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.


----------



## cburbs

bowlingblogger said:


> Hi, I have also have a DIR-655, and the Tivo is routed to it through a switch--quite similar to your setup. AFAIK our Netflix is working fine; I haven't gotten kicked back out to the main screen in a while (several months at least). I have the newest firmware (1.33NA). I have the QOS engine enabled, and it seems to help--the DIR-655 is supposed to automatically prioritize video packets. I have left all of the QOS settings at default, except for "Dynamic Fragmentation," which I have unchecked because I have a decent upload speed (about 1.5 Mbps). I've read that if your uplink is greater than 256 kbps you shouldn't enable this function. I have also manually entered my uplink speed instead of letting the DIR-655 determine it, because it highballed my speed big-time, rendering the QOS engine useless (at least I think that's what would happen).
> 
> Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.


I just updated the firmware on the Dlink yesterday. Testing it again as we speak - my son is watching a movie from netflix. 
Also sent you a PM>


----------



## lordbah

My Tivo is hung on Please Wait trying to enter the Netflix menu. But I haven't seen anyone else posting with a problem so maybe it's just my box.


----------



## dave13077

lordbah said:


> My Tivo is hung on Please Wait trying to enter the Netflix menu. But I haven't seen anyone else posting with a problem so maybe it's just my box.


Same exact thing happened to me last night. At least I am not the only one. I am in TWC Central NY region as I see you are in Rochester NY. Do not know if that is connected.


----------



## areeda

lordbah said:


> My Tivo is hung on Please Wait trying to enter the Netflix menu. But I haven't seen anyone else posting with a problem so maybe it's just my box.


I'm not sure of your details but I may have encountered something similar. When I scroll down to the netfilx group in my Now Playing list and select it I get a please wait message and the screen goes gray. I've waited up to 15 minutes and I just stays that way. TiVo is not locked up as I can hit the TiVo button and play recorded video or YouTube.

That went on for 2 days until I tried rebooting the TiVo just to see. Low and behold I can watch Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce in a 1942 Sherlock Holmes.

Joe


----------



## cburbs

I had mine pause 3 times yesterday.....


----------



## treacherous

I must be lucky with mine. I have no problems using Netflix on my S3 or Tivo HD.

Here is what I am using:

Linksys WRT160N

Netgear Powerline AV Ethernet Adapters

I am on Comcast and my typical speed ratings from Speedtest.net are about 25 megabit on average.


----------



## dlfl

treacherous said:


> ........I am on Comcast and my typical speed ratings from Speedtest.net are about 25 megabit on average.


Excellent bandwidth if it's true. Another ComCast poster told me he gets artificially high test results from Speedtest.net. He recommended

http://testmy.net/speedtest/d_load.php

What do you test there?


----------



## keenanSR

dlfl said:


> Excellent bandwidth if it's true. Another ComCast poster told me he gets artificially high test results from Speedtest.net. He recommended
> 
> http://testmy.net/speedtest/d_load.php
> 
> What do you test there?


Doesn't appear to be accurate for me, the test caps out at 1 MB/s download speed.

The most accurate test I've seen is to use Shaper Probe, it will give you a reading of your actual provisioned rate in addition to the initial PowerBoost rates which tend to invalidate the results of almost every speed test out there.

Shaper Probe and any large file(100MB+ from say an Apple or MS server) will give the most accurate results.


----------



## Stormspace

Anyone seeing issues with their WLAN connection speed dying after using Netflix for a while on the THD? 

I have a router and a WAP54G configured as a repeater and both broadcast the same SSID. Recently I've noticed that after using netflix the connection speed to the THD drops off. (Takes a couple of hours to transfer a show at basic from any TiVo on the Network) Rebooting the THD seems to resolve the issue.

I am also experiencing some router issues, so it might be a hardware failure on that end. I just wanted to check to see if there were any known Netflix issues surrounding this type of behavior.


----------



## cburbs

treacherous said:


> I must be lucky with mine. I have no problems using Netflix on my S3 or Tivo HD.
> 
> Here is what I am using:
> 
> Linksys WRT160N
> 
> Netgear Powerline AV Ethernet Adapters
> 
> I am on Comcast and my typical speed ratings from Speedtest.net are about 25 megabit on average.


How well do the Netgear Powerline AV Ethernet Adapters work?

I live in a rental unit and right now I run a long cord from upstairs to downstairs to connect my router to switch(to tivo). I was using a wireless bridge but I can't get streambaby to function that way so I had to go back to hard wired switch.


----------



## mikeyts

cburbs said:


> How well do the Netgear Powerline AV Ethernet Adapters work?
> 
> I live in a rental unit and right now I run a long cord from upstairs to downstairs to connect my router to switch(to tivo). I was using a wireless bridge but I can't get streambaby to function that way so I had to go back to hard wired switch.


It depends upon the age of the wiring and how well insulated it is against crosstalk on the frequencies used. I tried it in a 30 y/o home and only got an unacceptable fraction of the rated speed.

You might try MoCA (Ethernet over cable wiring); there are routers and adapters out there, though they're not cheap.


----------



## treacherous

This does show a significant slower connection speed for me. Using the 50 meg file I get ----> 5971 Kbps or 6 Mbps (729 kB/s)

That being said my Netflix streaming works perfectly.



dlfl said:


> Excellent bandwidth if it's true. Another ComCast poster told me he gets artificially high test results from Speedtest.net. He recommended
> 
> http://testmy.net/speedtest/d_load.php
> 
> What do you test there?


----------



## treacherous

My house is about 13 years old. On average the Netgear speed utility shows them at 120 Megabit on average. They sometimes spike up to 160 megabits at times.



cburbs said:


> How well do the Netgear Powerline AV Ethernet Adapters work?
> 
> I live in a rental unit and right now I run a long cord from upstairs to downstairs to connect my router to switch(to tivo). I was using a wireless bridge but I can't get streambaby to function that way so I had to go back to hard wired switch.


----------



## dlfl

treacherous said:


> This does show a significant slower connection speed for me. Using the 50 meg file I get ----> 5971 Kbps or 6 Mbps (729 kB/s)
> 
> That being said my Netflix streaming works perfectly.


Well, according to Netflix, 5 Mbps is enough as long as it's solid, i.e., actually realized by the whole path between you and them. However there have been many posts from people with 10 Mbps or higher still having problems.


----------



## MPSAN

WOW, I am at 23.9 *MB*/sec on FIOS!


----------



## gweempose

i just tested my Comcast connection and got this result:


----------



## hejish

I've given up on TivoHD and netflix.

I have had my TivoHD crash on numerous occasions. Movies hang over and over. It does report a weak signal. My 3 laptops and my wii do not seem to have any problems from the same exact location. I'm going to be trying wii soon instead.


----------



## rdauenhauer

hejish said:


> I've given up on TivoHD and netflix.
> 
> I have had my TivoHD crash on numerous occasions. Movies hang over and over. It does report a weak signal. My 3 laptops and my wii do not seem to have any problems from the same exact location. I'm going to be trying wii soon instead.


I'm there as well~!! :down:
Looking back this thread was created *2 YEARS AGO!*
You'd think Tivo could have come up with some solutions to this weak implementation by now. 
When watching Netflix movies on my sons XBOX360 connected to the same wireless network at the same spot in the home its flawless, 
My HD units now crashes (total lockup) constantly attempting to use Netflix streaming. 
This is especially disappointing since I decided to test Tivo's marketing hype and dumped my _*Comcast*_ cable connection in lue of OTA (Antenna) connection in conjunction with Netflix to provide my TV entertainment. 
:down::down::down:
Not only does Netflix not work, but Tivo's claim of being able to use thier players w/o a cable connection are *PATENTLY FALSE!* 
Without a set-top converter or Cable card your service will be unreliable at best. Depending where you live you _might_ get 4 to 7 local channels that *will* suffer breakup due to weather. 
In my location (suburban Seattle) because of the topography the OTA service is limited at best. The cable providers are mandated to provide QAM broadcasts of those same channels via their cable network so in theory all that would be necessary is to maintain the physical connection to my cable and continue to enjoy the Tivo experience (according to their marking) ~?
What they don't tell you is that those QAM (rebroadcast) channels are usually only provided on sub channels (IE: 105-1 ect) with *NO* guide info, so I no longer have *ANY* recording facility!!!! if you try to record one of the rebroadcast channels (with no guide info) the recording will auto terminate in 30 minutes !!! 
SO... bottom line is that my $500 piece of technology is completely useless for its INTENDED purpose.
No recording, no streaming ....come on Tivo! 
Hey Stephen are you still reading these, or have you moved on to addressing errors on the PRIEMIER?


----------



## moyekj

hejish said:


> I've given up on TivoHD and netflix.
> 
> I have had my TivoHD crash on numerous occasions. Movies hang over and over. It does report a weak signal. My 3 laptops and my wii do not seem to have any problems from the same exact location. I'm going to be trying wii soon instead.


 Finally had a chance to try out the Wii implementation of Netflix streaming and it's hands down a better implementation:
* Much zippier interface
* Pretty easy to browse all streaming titles and add to instant queue from the Wii interface (something TiVo can't do)
* Plays titles that my original S3s fail on.
* Wii is using wireless network instead of a wired network, yet there are no interruptions, re-buffering or long delays compared to TiVo on a wired connection. And of course the Wii doesn't hang and require a shutdown when the network connection is severed.

Of course the fundamental problem with Wii is the 480p video limitation and it will never have 5.1 audio that is supposed to be coming so realistically I would not use it (except perhaps to play titles my S3s can't play), but still it's another example of how poor the TiVo implementation is compared to other solutions.


----------



## av_dude

moyekj said:


> Finally had a chance to try out the Wii implementation of Netflix streaming and it's hands down a better implementation:
> * Much zippier interface
> * Pretty easy to browse all streaming titles and add to instant queue from the Wii interface (something TiVo can't do)
> * Plays titles that my original S3s fail on.
> * Wii is using wireless network instead of a wired network, yet there are no interruptions, re-buffering or long delays compared to TiVo on a wired connection. And of course the Wii doesn't hang and require a shutdown when the network connection is severed.
> 
> Of course the fundamental problem with Wii is the 480p video limitation and it will never have 5.1 audio that is supposed to be coming so realistically I would not use it (except perhaps to play titles my S3s can't play), but still it's another example of how poor the TiVo implementation is compared to other solutions.


Completely agreed, Kevin. Netflix.com has been down a couple times tonight. The Wii hung for a bit, but when all was good with Netflix, it came right back. The PQ is a little under par (as compared to Netflix on my PS3 and TiVo), but good enough.

One small nit, but I do like how you can review the program information on the TiVo while watching a movie. Neither the Wii or the PS3 have that ability.


----------



## mikeyts

av_dude said:


> One small nit, but I do like how you can review the program information on the TiVo while watching a movie. Neither the Wii or the PS3 have that ability.


Neither does the Xbox. On the Xbox you can check the current number of quality bars. It's probably the only embedded player which can adapt to changing network conditions by switching to both lower bit rate encodings when times are tough and back to higher bit rate ones when things improve (the PC and Mac players can, but they're no embedded).


----------



## av_dude

mikeyts said:


> Neither does the Xbox. On the Xbox you can check the current number of quality bars. It's probably the only embedded player which can adapt to changing network conditions by switching to both lower bit rate encodings when times are tough and back to higher bit rate ones when things improve (the PC and Mac players can, but they're no embedded).


I believe the TiVo will down res when bandwidth is an issue, although I'm not sure it'll go back up again. Perhaps moyekj could comment...


----------



## cavalier

TiVoStephen said:


> * Issues regarding freezes and reboots
> 
> If you lose network connectivity (for example, if your router is unplugged or your ISP has a hiccup or the cat chews through the Ethernet cable) while watching a Netflix video, you may experience a rare issue with your DVR becoming completely unresponsive to the remote.
> 
> If your DVR does freeze, the only solution is to reboot the unit.
> 
> We're continuing to investigate this issue and are working on a fix for a future release.
> 
> We apologize for these problems and thank you for your patience.


Hmm.

I was about to call TiVo support on this -- can I assume that in the past 16 months there has not been a fix for this? I just briefly lost network connectivity while watching Netflix via TiVo and TiVo basically hit a wall. Seems a bit... over sensitive..


----------



## mikeyts

av_dude said:


> I believe the TiVo will down res when bandwidth is an issue, although I'm not sure it'll go back up again. Perhaps moyekj could comment...


All of the other embedded players will stop, select a lower bit rate stream and rebuffer if network conditions get bad. They cannot, however, go back to higher quality, higher bit rate streams when network conditions improve. Only the Xbox, PC and Mac players do. The PC and Mac players use an adaptive streaming system developed by Netflix with special encodings; the Xbox does what it does using the encodings used by all of the embedded players (except the PS3 and possibly Wii), via a system developed by MS' Xbox Engineering group. It tries its best to be "seamless" (make the switches without stopping to rebuffer) but infrequently it fails and there'll be about a two-second pause to rebuffer.

You can read about it in the second post on this page of their blog, entitled "A Look Inside Netflix on the Xbox 360".


----------



## av_dude

mikeyts said:


> All of the other embedded players will stop, select a lower bit rate stream and rebuffer if network conditions get bad. They cannot, however, go back to higher quality, higher bit rate streams when network conditions improve. Only the Xbox, PC and Mac players do. The PC and Mac players use an adaptive streaming system developed by Netflix with special encodings; the Xbox does what it does using the encodings used by all of the embedded players (except the PS3 and possibly Wii), via a system developed by MS' Xbox Engineering group. It tries its best to be "seamless" (make the switches without stopping to rebuffer) but infrequently it fails and there'll be about a two-second pause to rebuffer.
> 
> You can read about it in the second post on this page of their blog, entitled "A Look Inside Netflix on the Xbox 360".


Thanks for the info and the link. Interesting stuff.


----------



## turbobuick86

New to stand alone tivo. Have streaming netflix through Xbox and Roku and now Tivo HDXL unit. Tivo and Xbox are both wireless on my 25/25mbps Fios connection and Netflix streams great. 

Tivo will hang up and stop updates when you pick up the phone if you're using the modem, shouldn't Tivo stop internet updating if you want to stream Netflix? Seems like too many times, I want to start Netflix, I get a message that I can't connect to my network and it's because the Tivo is getting an update or thinking about getting an update. How often does it update, hourly? The downloading takes seconds, but the preparing and loading still makes me wait. The tivo seems like it doesn't want to share the connection.


----------



## morac

turbobuick86 said:


> New to stand alone tivo. Have streaming netflix through Xbox and Roku and now Tivo HDXL unit. Tivo and Xbox are both wireless on my 25/25mbps Fios connection and Netflix streams great.
> 
> Tivo will hang up and stop updates when you pick up the phone if you're using the modem, shouldn't Tivo stop internet updating if you want to stream Netflix?


If you have a 25/25mbps FIOS connection, while are you using the phone modem in the TiVo? You already have it set up to use Netflix, so it should be using broadband for getting updates. Picking up the phone shouldn't have any effect.


----------



## turbobuick86

I should have been more clear. I'm not using dialup. I am using broadband. Spoke of the phone only for comparison reasons.

Just saying that tivos dial-up modems disconnect if someone picks up the telephone if that is how they get updated. They delay the update to a later time.

It seems to me that Tivo wont stream netflix if it feels the need to update. On more than one occasion I felt like I had to wait until it finished to use Netflix. 

I've been a directivo user for the last 11 years, and 3 days into SA tivo. My observations might be awry, it's still early. =)


----------



## morac

turbobuick86 said:


> It seems to me that Tivo wont stream netflix if it feels the need to update. On more than one occasion I felt like I had to wait until it finished to use Netflix.


Oh okay. I don't think that's the case. Updates don't download a lot of data and shouldn't interrupt Netflix. That said, the update process and the indexing process that happens sometime after an update can cause the entire box to slow down as resources are maxed out. That shouldn't slow down Netflix though since the indexing process has a lower priority.


----------



## m.s

I have to say, the Netflix implementation on TiVo is the worst performing, buggiest piece of crap I've used in years. 30 second delays between hitting a button and the TiVo reacting (pause/play). Constant flopping between retrieving HD/non-HD. Black screen, nothing happening when trying to play/resume a movie. S3HD.

The Wii client works perfectly, though.


----------



## colin1497

I haven't been using Netflix much for HD content because I had a terrible experience when they first dropped the HD content, with repetitive rebuffering, and eventually some forced reboots. I believe that, at the time, I tried pausing until it stopped buffering and then watching again, but I can't be sure of that.

Last night I decided to go for it again and played around with several things. I can't say which worked, or if it was a combination of them all:

1) I decided to mess around with my wifi network. I have a pair of old Belkin 7230-4's with one configured as the bridge. While these are antiquated, they're handy because of the bridge mode. I turned "Protected Mode" off, and made sure 802.11e (QoS) was off. The QoS implementation sucks. Also, I noticed 2 neighbors now have wifi networks on the same channel I was on (channel 11). When I originally set them up I was the only wifi around. I changed to Channel 6 to eliminate overlap.

2) I started the stream, and immediately paused it. I waited for the activity light to stop blinking on the NIC and then started playing.

I'm on 5Mb cable and was able to watch 2 Lost episodes in HD without a single hiccup. I was actually pretty pleased with everything. It worked just like it should work.


----------



## Binkish

My problem is that netflix just stopped working. It has all the same problems mentioned here, but if I just watched stuff, it would work all right. Now, all of a sudden, it can't stream anything. 

I have a media computer that shares it's Internet with the tivoHD, and it can stream just fine. But the TiVo can't seem to--which says to me that the problem is in the TiVo box, not the Internet connection (which is fils 15mb).

Anybody have any suggestions?


----------



## dlfl

Binkish said:


> My problem is that netflix just stopped working. It has all the same problems mentioned here, but if I just watched stuff, it would work all right. Now, all of a sudden, it can't stream anything.
> 
> I have a media computer that shares it's Internet with the tivoHD, and it can stream just fine. But the TiVo can't seem to--which says to me that the problem is in the TiVo box, not the Internet connection (which is fils 15mb).
> 
> Anybody have any suggestions?


Call Netflix. Their system lost my Netflix authorization once.


----------



## bicker

This thread hasn't addressed the gross lack of accommodation for the hearing impaired that this service represents. While the software technically supports Closed Captioning, the content offered by the service very often does not [link], essentially treating this protected class of disabled persons as second-class consumers.

A company should be allowed to do what is best for its bottom-line, except when it represents a safety or security concern, *or violates the civil rights granted to citizens by our laws* - specifically relevant in this case, the Americans with Disabilities Act, which requires, "functionally equivalent services for consumers with disabilities, notably those who are deaf or hard of hearing ..." While it is perhaps understandable to develop new technology without accomplishing full compliance with this law, at some point, the avoidance become just an unforgivable delaying tactic.

This isn't a matter of consumers wanting to pay less for something. There is no real validity in such selfish claims. This is a matter of American citizens granted rights by law, and having those rights effectively ignored. Given how much (hearing) consumers place such demands on suppliers that are *not* reflections of the law (as discussed in many threads in this forum), it is dismaying that such concerns seem to have more primacy than issues that are truly matters of our society's consensus decision.

What is Netflix and TiVo doing to provide closed captioning for all content brought into the system over the last few years, and going forward? How much longer will Netflix and TiVo be sanguine and nothing more than apologetic about marginalizing a legally-recognized protected class?

This is especially troubling in light of how some suppliers are now asking for yet-even-more of a delay before they're required to comply, and for "flexibility" which if not clearly defined in advance (which they are unwilling to do) could mean failing to effectively address this legally-mandated obligation. These calls, if granted, could delay the provision of Closed Captions via broadband video (such as Hulu and Netflix Watch Instantly), thereby leaving deaf and hearing impaired folks behind, as our television entertainment industry moves from the current over-the-air, cable and satellite arrangement to a more Internet-based arrangement. [link]


----------



## scottc42

I use Netflix a couple times a month on my TiVo HD and never have any problems. I wish you could browse the catalog from without having to run to the computer.


----------



## morac

Netflix is slowly enabling CC for TV and movies on their PC/Mac players and have a planned fall release for other devices. I don't know where that leaves TiVo's implementation though since they don't seem inclined to update the Netflix app.


----------



## bicker

I've been following that blog looking for some indication that they have a plan to provide closed captioning for all content brought into the system over the last few years, and going forward... I don't see anything evolving in that direct. It seems that they are content to just play with the idea of providing accommodation for the disabled.


----------



## grrett

scottc42 said:


> I use Netflix a couple times a month on my TiVo HD and never have any problems. I wish you could browse the catalog from without having to run to the computer.


I am there with you. Netflix works fine on my Tivo. Just wish they would update the Netflix app with something like the Roku. I have a Roku and they just updated the Netflix app. It is remarkable.


----------



## bowlingblogger

This has probably been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but I've noticed that when watching non-English language films with subtitles, they are often cut off and unreadable on my TV. Netflix seems to be punishing those who want/need to read.


----------



## mikeyts

scottc42 said:


> I use Netflix a couple times a month on my TiVo HD and never have any problems. I wish you could browse the catalog from without having to run to the computer.


The PS3 player can browse the entire Netflix catalog, after a fashion, including disc-only titles. I show that in this post at AVS Forum. It's a feature that may have been migrated to some other devices by now.

You can do something similar using TiVo Search, by hitting the ENTER button and changing the options to "Source: Available to download only" and "Cost: Free only"; you can even restrict the list to HD titles with "Quality: HD only" and set a genre/subgenre. You do have to do it as part of a title search, but if you search for "A" it'll show you all matching titles which begin with "A"; marching down the alphabet should show you everything that matches the filter, though in a slightly cumbersome way (hit a letter, look at the list, hit CLEAR, repeat) .

I just played with it, filtering for "Download only, Free Only, HD Only, Movies - Action Adventure" and it works pretty nicely. Sometime it will match a title with an HD download that's not free (from Amazon and/or Blockbuster) with no Netflix stream, or with an available HD rental/purchase download and a Netflix stream that's not HD, but rarely. You can even watch a little of the title and back out to your search with the left-arrow.


----------



## mikeyts

bicker said:


> I've been following that blog looking for some indication that they have a plan to provide closed captioning for all content brought into the system over the last few years, and going forward... I don't see anything evolving in that direct. It seems that they are content to just play with the idea of providing accommodation for the disabled.


What sort of "indication" would you like to see? They have a mechanism in place for the PC player and CC available for a subset of titles--I've tried it and it works, though it could use some font settings. Seems like progress to me. The way they're doing it should make it possible to rapidly cover all of their titles for which CC information is available (given that they can get it from the content provider). They're just adding separate files for each title and not reencoding the content in any way.

No doubt it will require some participation from the device OEMs--they only completely control the PC player.


----------



## mikeyts

grrett said:


> I am there with you. Netflix works fine on my Tivo. Just wish they would update the Netflix app with something like the Roku. I have a Roku and they just updated the Netflix app. It is remarkable.


I just checked out the video clip of Roku's "New Netflix Experience" on this page--nice.


----------



## bicker

mikeyts said:


> What sort of "indication" would you like to see?


A commitment that (for example), "By January 1, 80% of all new titles added to the catalog shall have CC."


----------



## bicker

The government may end up helping this along:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/454684-Senate_Commerce_To_Mark_Up_Accessibility_Bill.php



> The bills ... would apply captitioning [sic] requirements to online video


Let's hope that that is included in the Mark Up, and it stays in the bill long enough to reach the President's desk.


----------



## Saturn_V

I snagged a Roku HD-XR from Amazon last week while it was on sale, and have officially given up on Netflix on my TiVoHD. (my sig other has a Roku and is ecstatic with it, so it wasn't new to me) Netflix on Tivo had too many crashes and lock ups. Too many programs that simply stopped. Spotty HD despite plenty of (wired) bandwidth (spotty Amazon VOD HD support too). Grievously slow Instant queue loading. And constant rebuffering. 

Spent the past weekend grazing the queue from the Roku and it was flawless. And the interface is snazzier and snappier too. I was at my wit's end, and now Netflix is smooth as buttah.


----------



## byancey

hejish said:


> I've given up on TivoHD and netflix.
> 
> I have had my TivoHD crash on numerous occasions. Movies hang over and over. It does report a weak signal. My 3 laptops and my wii do not seem to have any problems from the same exact location. I'm going to be trying wii soon instead.


Add me to the list. I've given up and Netflix on my TivoHD. We recently switched from cable to OTA and subscribed to NetFlix to supplement our programming. Seemed to work fine on our TivoHD for a few days, and then this morning the Tivo started crashing while using NetFlix. I've seen no spontaneous reboots of our Tivo (that I'm aware of) in the 18+ months we've owned it, but it rebooted at least 4 times today alone while using Netflix. Fortunately, I have an LG Bluray player that has an excellent NetFlix implementation, so I've just gone ahead and disabled NetFlix on the TivoHD. Last thing I want is recordings being interrupted every time one of the kids decides to fireup Netflix.


----------



## dlfl

byancey said:


> Add me to the list. I've given up and Netflix on my TivoHD. We recently switched from cable to OTA and subscribed to NetFlix to supplement our programming. Seemed to work fine on our TivoHD for a few days, and then this morning the Tivo started crashing while using NetFlix. I've seen no spontaneous reboots of our Tivo (that I'm aware of) in the 18+ months we've owned it, but it rebooted at least 4 times today alone while using Netflix. Fortunately, I have an LG Bluray player that has an excellent NetFlix implementation, so I've just gone ahead and disabled NetFlix on the TivoHD. Last thing I want is recordings being interrupted every time one of the kids decides to fireup Netflix.


What model is your LG ? It's a shame that the TiVo just ends up being nothing more than an OTA DVR isn't it? How about Amazon and YouTube -- do they benefit you?

What you're doing is my contingency plan for when and if I finally give up on digital cable and Netflix on my HD. I'm considering the Samsung BD-C5500 BluRay for $140 at Amazon. It lacks built in Wireless adapter but I have wired internet so don't need it.


----------



## emkorial

I was never able to fix the netflix audio problem. Voices and dialog were quiet, yet background noise and special effects volumes were normal. It makes it impossible to watch a movie. 

I've tried HDMI, component cable, optical cable to a 2 channel converter then component, nothing helped. I finally threw in the towel and gave up on it. Stinks, looked like a good idea, wish tivo could fix the audio.


----------



## mikeyts

emkorial said:


> I was never able to fix the netflix audio problem. Voices and dialog were quiet, yet background noise and special effects volumes were normal. It makes it impossible to watch a movie.
> 
> I've tried HDMI, component cable, optical cable to a 2 channel converter then component, nothing helped. I finally threw in the towel and gave up on it. Stinks, looked like a good idea, wish tivo could fix the audio.


I've never heard anyone complain about that. I've watched a few hundred streams and never run into that (TiVo Series3 connected to an Onkyo AVR via HDMI). Can you give me some examples of titles you've had audio problems with?


----------



## DaveLessnau

For those who've switched over to Roku for Netflix, do you notice any difference from the TiVo in resolution? AFAIK, all the Roku models output only up to 720p, whereas the TiVo outputs up to 1080i/p.


----------



## mikeyts

DaveLessnau said:


> For those who've switched over to Roku for Netflix, do you notice any difference from the TiVo in resolution? AFAIK, all the Roku models output only up to 720p, whereas the TiVo outputs up to 1080i/p.


Since Netflix Watch Instantly HD video is currently only 720p24, it would be the difference between TiVo's upconversion capability and your television's. I suspect that might often be more or less a toss-up.


----------



## bowlingblogger

Can Tivo really output 1080i/p with Netflix? Whenever the "HD" symbol comes up when starting a title, I only ever see 720p on my Tivo HD's front panel.


----------



## mikeyts

TiVo's gonna upconvert (or downconvert, as the case may be) to whatever specified in its resolution settings. I have a TiVo S3, so 1080i is the highest it can upconvert 480i, 480p and 720p to--my television has to convert it from there to 1080p because, being a 1080p LCD panel, 1080p is the only actual resolution it can display. Presumably TiVo Premiere can upconvert to 1080p internally. Netflix WI is never more than 720p, so that's what TiVo will upconvert (if you have your TiVo set to a higher fixed resolution).


----------



## mikeyts

I'm not sure that it will show anything while playing streaming Netflix, but try S-P-S-Replay-S which activates a line which will display, among other things, the resolution of the source of what's being displayed. It works for live TV and recordings, but I don't know about other things like streaming and downloads.

EDIT: I answered this for myself--it works for live TV, recordings and downloads, but not for Netflix streaming. The information line just isn't displayed.


----------



## DaveLessnau

I should have thought about what Netflix was actually pumping out as HD. I wasn't aware that it was just 720p. My TiVo is set to output a fixed 1080i, so it's doing the upconverting for the television. I guess the answer to my question, then, is entirely dependent on what each television does with the less-than-1080i resolution input. Which can't be answered here. Sorry.


----------



## MPSAN

I hate to ask, and hope I am not too OT, but I saw this on here and can not find it again.

Someone posted a site that shows the new Netflix Streaming additions for that week. I have seen some sites, but they list hundreds of titles...mostly old. I know someone here had it and I even thought it was in their sig but I can no longer find it. Does anyone know what I am talking about?

TIA


----------



## JimPa

Its been several months since the last time I've asked this but is Netflix on a S3 rock solid or does it still have major problems?


----------



## djwilso

I haven't tried Netflix on my S3 in a long time. I assume that it has not changed at all and is still just as buggy as ever.


----------



## djwilso

MPSAN said:


> I hate to ask, and hope I am not too OT, but I saw this on here and can not find it again.
> 
> Someone posted a site that shows the new Netflix Streaming additions for that week. I have seen some sites, but they list hundreds of titles...mostly old. I know someone here had it and I even thought it was in their sig but I can no longer find it. Does anyone know what I am talking about?
> 
> TIA


This?
http://www.streamingsoon.com/


----------



## orangeboy

MPSAN said:


> I hate to ask, and hope I am not too OT, but I saw this on here and can not find it again.
> 
> Someone posted a site that shows the new Netflix Streaming additions for that week. I have seen some sites, but they list hundreds of titles...mostly old. I know someone here had it and I even thought it was in their sig but I can no longer find it. Does anyone know what I am talking about?
> 
> TIA


Probably one of the very few frames I use on FrameChannel is "Netflix - New choices to watch instantly". I find it handy since I don't need to have a computer around to see what's new. I'll check out the frame and find something of interest, then use TiVo Search to find and view it, all from the TiVo alone.


----------



## mikeyts

djwilso said:


> This?
> http://www.streamingsoon.com/


The best thing about that page is the pithy, sarcastic commentary on the movies. It reads like it's being written by a _Television Without Pity_ editor .


----------



## TiVo Steve

Another site of interest...
http://www.hackingnetflix.com/


----------



## hummingbird_206

JimPa said:


> Its been several months since the last time I've asked this but is Netflix on a S3 rock solid or does it still have major problems?


I've never had much in the way of problems with Netflix on my S3's (two of them). Just watched part 1 of The Color of Magic yesterday, no stutters, no audio problems, everything was great. YMMV


----------



## MPSAN

Thanks all...I will look at all of them. I never have set up FrameChannel.


----------



## jrclay

Watching Netflix on my s3 has been mixed. Rebuffering was a problem in HD, but seems to have improved in last 4-5 months. Now it crashes and reboots on some movies. Swedish and Danish have choked it. "Girl With a Dragon Tattoo" just will not play.


----------



## blacknoi

Lately my S3 will take 10-20 seconds to display 1 page of my instant queue. Hit page down? Wait another 10 to 20 seconds to display the next page (it just sits at an empty page and you cant do anything until it displays the next page), and yet my TivoHD is fine.


----------



## dave13077

blacknoi said:


> Lately my S3 will take 10-20 seconds to display 1 page of my instant queue. Hit page down? Wait another 10 to 20 seconds to display the next page (it just sits at an empty page and you cant do anything until it displays the next page), and yet my TivoHD is fine.


My Tivo HD just started doing this also. I thought it was a internet/network problem but maybe it is a larger issue.


----------



## sommerfeld

Netflix on our series 3 was problem-free until we started attempting to watch season 2 of the "new" Doctor Who, which was unwatchable (jerky/skipping video; seems like it runs too fast for a bit then freezes, then skips ahead and starts running too fast again; the audio also gets out of sync).

No problem with viewing/navigating the instant queue or watching season 1 or with an older Tom Baker episode; the problem seems to be associated with specific shows.

The tivo is connected via ethernet to our comcast router.
bandwidth does not appear to be an issue -- our service is nominally 12mbit/s downstream, but speed test sites show more like 26mbit/s.


----------



## mikeyts

sommerfeld said:


> Netflix on our series 3 was problem-free until we started attempting to watch season 2 of the "new" Doctor Who, which was unwatchable (jerky/skipping video; seems like it runs too fast for a bit then freezes, then skips ahead and starts running too fast again; the audio also gets out of sync).
> 
> No problem with viewing/navigating the instant queue or watching season 1 or with an older Tom Baker episode; the problem seems to be associated with specific shows.
> 
> The tivo is connected via ethernet to our comcast router.
> bandwidth does not appear to be an issue -- our service is nominally 12mbit/s downstream, but speed test sites show more like 26mbit/s.


If I recall correctly I saw a few similar problems on the S3--most notably with MI-5--which others reported not seeing on TiVo HD, so it was assumed to be related to the different decoder chip in S3. From my Netflix Instant Watching Activities page, it looks as though I watched those back in December 2008. It says that I only watched the first bit of the first two episodes, but that I watched all of the rest, so the problem might only be in those episodes. That was about the time that they added a player to the Xbox, so I might have switfched to watching it on that. I don't think that there are any problems with Seasons 3 and 4 at all.

I just watched a few minutes of the first episode of Season 2 on my S3 ("The Christmas Invasion") and didn't have any problems. Do the problems show up immediately when you play it?


----------



## archangelsfv

mikeyts said:


> I just watched a few minutes of the first episode of Season 2 on my S3 ("The Christmas Invasion") and didn't have any problems. Do the problems show up immediately when you play it?


I had this same problem trying to watch Season 2 of Doctor Who as well. The first espisode "Christmas Invasion" plays fine; the problem started for me with episode 2, "New Earth", all the other episodes after within that season which continue to be jerky/jump around to this day with the Tivo constantly trying to retrieve (just checked it again right now to be sure - yep, still wonky.)

I'd resigned myself some time ago that when time permitted, I would just watch those seasons on my Xbox. Been too caught up lately with 30 Rock... and trying to figure out why I never gave _that _show a chance....


----------



## mikeyts

archangelsfv said:


> The first espisode "Christmas Invasion" plays fine; the problem started for me with episode 2, "New Earth"


Bingo! I hadn't thought to check past the first episode but that one won't play on my TiVo either. It plays fine on my Xbox, PS3 and PC--the Xbox should be using the same encoding as the Series3.

So, it still seems to be true that some encodings don't work properly with the Series3 decoder chip.


----------



## shwru980r

I think it's a given that you will need a second netflix enabled device along with the Tivo to determine if the issue is with the Tivo.

I was watching the PBS series "The Civil War" by Ken Burns and the seventh episode didn't have sound on Tivo. All the other episodes had sound. I checked the same episode on my Bluray player and it didn't have sound there either. I left feedback on Netflix about the episode and after about a week I could play the episode with sound.

Netflix issues are not always the fault of Tivo.


----------



## archangelsfv

shwru980r said:


> Netflix issues are not always the fault of Tivo.


Agreed; definitely not a Tivo-basher here. I love my S3. But this situation does appear to be hardware specific.

I sent an email to Netflix about the playback problem with Doc Who... prolly back in December cuz I got my S3 in Nov... to date it's still wonky.

I don't think it's a bad idea to have as many netflix-ready devices as possible; A) for verifying a problem and B) if for someone reason one ever cuts out or a company decides to cut it off, you've got a back up.

I only wish I'd waited on my blu-ray player purchase... ended up getting a Panasonic that's _okay_ but it was before they incorporated netflix to the interface and according to Panasonic and other forums, the processor in the player I have wouldn't be able to handle streaming netflix, which I do find slightly suspect...

But, other than this particular issue and the "An error occurred communicating with Netflix. Please try again." multiple times this week (yes, I deactivated and re-activated my Tivo multiple times; sometimes it resolved, sometimes it didn't, but all seems well now). Overall I'm very happy with Netflix on the Tivo and happy that I don't have to pay _extra_ for the priviledge, as I do with Xbox.


----------



## keenanSR

mikeyts said:


> Bingo! I hadn't thought to check past the first episode but that one won't play on my TiVo either. It plays fine on my Xbox, PS3 and PC--the Xbox should be using the same encoding as the Series3.
> 
> So, it still seems to be true that some encodings don't work properly with the Series3 decoder chip.


Just tried this as well, New Earth plays fine on my TiVo HD but it's jerking, skipping, pausing on the Series 3. I never really used the S3 for Netflix anyway because of the problems when the service was first available, when I got the HD I started to use Watch Instantly much more as it doesn't seem to have any problems with it.


----------



## mikeyts

Yeah--I remember a discussion of this problem from a couple of years back and the conclusion there was that it was specific to the S3, since people weren't seeing it on the HD, which uses a different decoding chip. There's something in these encodings which screws up playback on the S3 and on no other Netflix stream player. If they've figured out what it was they probably just fixed things up so that no new encodings would be that way and not bothered to re-encode and replace the old ones. I haven't heard any complaints of the problem in anything more recent than that (actually, not in anything other than some episodes of Doctor Who and MI-5--could be something specific to the sources they got for those episodes from the BBC).


----------



## mattack

shwru980r said:


> I think it's a given that you will need a second netflix enabled device along with the Tivo to determine if the issue is with the Tivo.


..and if you have an iPhone, you already have "a second netflix enabled device", nowadays..

Though I'm using my Tivos through a WiFi bridge, I'm still amazed at how much faster netflix starts up on my iPhone.. (Though I admit I don't think I've tried on the slower WiFi I have at home -- it might be just as slow)


----------



## DaveLessnau

I saw a video review of Netflix on the iPhone:

http://cnettv.cnet.com/9742-1_53-50092360.html

From what they showed, Netflix on the iPhone seems to beat the snot out of Netflix on TiVo (interface-wise). Kind of embarrassing for TiVo that a PHONE has a better Netflix interface than does a DVR.


----------



## Daghain

Does anyone know if there is a similar buffering problem with LOST? The first time it was on instant play I think it was okay, but now, seasons 2, 3, and 4 are all buffering randomly and often. Just wondered if maybe it's time to replace my modem (router is only about a year old, modem is probably 5) and see if that works.


----------



## ChiefDanGeorge

I've got problems with Primeval Season 3 Episode 4 on. Playback is slow then fast then slow again.
Same thing with Michael Palin's Sahara, at least the first episode. First Episode of Palin's New Europe has the same issue as well, but the rest of the series played fine.


----------



## pdhenry

ChiefDanGeorge said:


> I've got problems with Primeval Season 3 Episode 4 on. Playback is slow then fast then slow again.
> Same thing with Michael Palin's Sahara, at least the first episode. First Episode of Palin's New Europe has the same issue as well, but the rest of the series played fine.


I'm seeing that on Palin's Sahara on the TiVo, but not when streaming to my Samsung BluRay player.

I once got the impression that Netflix streams a different file format to a TiVo than to at least some other devices. Not sure whether this is true or applicable in this case , but it could mean that this particular issue could be a file issue and not a TiVo software issue.


----------



## dlfl

pdhenry said:


> .........I once got the impression that Netflix streams a different file format to a TiVo than to at least some other devices. Not sure whether this is true ........


That's definitely the case. I've got one video I've been trying to watch on my TiVo for over a year. It freezes about 10 secs in. I've complained to Netflix several times but it never gets fixed. The same video plays fine on my iPod Touch.


----------



## ah30k

I decided to try Netflix on my S3 since the kids were asking.

First three attempts resulted in Reboots immediately upon start which hang forever and require pulling the plug to get back up.

I see about 1000 posts on this topic and stumble on a couple of excuses like a bad network connection, hogwash.

Finally a post from Stephen saying to try calling the helpdesk about walking through a kickstart-2 process.

The helpdesk guy says he knows nothing of kickstart-2 but asks me to play the golden video "Heros - season 1 - episode 1".

On the phone with him I try and lo and behold, an immediate reboot.

You know what he tells me? This test proves that it is Netflix's fault and I should call them.

Hogwash again.

Delete, cancel account during trial period, vent here, move on with life.

I can't believe this is still an issue the hours before we enter 2011.


----------



## bakerja

Been using netflix on my TIVO HD since it came out. At first it was great but as the Netflix library of HD titles grows, so does the rebuffering issues on the TIVO. I have pretty much given up on the TIVO for netflix now because I also have a PS3 which I watched HD movies almost continually during the Christmas holidays. It never even burped. Smooth as silk and the interface is so much nicer. I really wish a TIVO update would come around and fix the interface and performance issues.

jab


----------



## mikeyts

bakerja said:


> I have pretty much given up on the TIVO for netflix now because I also have a PS3 which I watched HD movies almost continually during the Christmas holidays. It never even burped. Smooth as silk and the interface is so much nicer. I really wish a TIVO update would come around and fix the interface and performance issues.


The PS3 player definitely implements adaptive bit rate streaming (aka, "smooth streaming); as bandwidth on your connection to the server fluctuates, it seamlessly switches to lower bit rate, lower PQ (and possibly lower res) encodings when the bandwidth decreases and back to higher bit rate, higher PQ encodings when it comes back again. It also allows it to start streams pretty much instantly (generally in less than 3 seconds), by quickly buffering and displaying a low bit rate, crappy stream and gradually ramping up to the highest bit rate, highest quality stream that your connection can support; if you're watching a title from the beginning it's usually up to highest quality long before the credits end. You can hit the DISPLAY button (SEL, I think, on a pad) and watch PQ ramp up and down (if your connection speed fluctuates).

The PS3 is currently also the only platform to have 5.1/1080p encodings. (There's nothing that marks a 1080p title in its description, but a theory that I and some others hold is that if a stream has 5.1 sound, which is marked, it has 1080p encodings). I've been compiling a list of streams marked as having 5.1 sound in this thread at AVS Forum. The list is certainly not comprehensive; the main portion of it was compiled by my sifting through thousands of descriptions in the PS3 player's genre listings, but not everything is featured there. People keep reporting items in their Instant Queues with 5.1 sound which aren't on the list and I update it when they do. Note that there's an "audio and subtitles" item in each title's page and that you may have to enable 5.1 sound there.


----------



## abckids

I scanned through the thread, but might have missed this issue. We've been having a problem with Netflix streaming for the last week or so where the video gets bright blue, green and pink pixels and lines all over it. The figures also sometimes ghost where they'll move across the screen, but you can still see the image of where they started. It also freezes and is jerky, but it never rebuffers or anything like that.,,just keeps playing in a pretty much unwatchable fashion

We've used Netflix on our Tivo HD for two years with very few issues other than the occasional badly synced audio and nothing has changed that I'm aware of. We have 15/5 FiOS internet and the Tivo is connected wirelessly as it always has been. We've never had this problem with Netflix using our Wii or Roku box on the same network. 

Any ideas on how to fix this or who it should be reported to? I have to assume it's a Tivo issue at this point. TIA!


----------



## dlfl

abckids said:


> I scanned through the thread, but might have missed this issue. We've been having a problem with Netflix streaming for the last week or so where the video gets bright blue, green and pink pixels and lines all over it. The figures also sometimes ghost where they'll move across the screen, but you can still see the image of where they started. It also freezes and is jerky, but it never rebuffers or anything like that.,,just keeps playing in a pretty much unwatchable fashion
> 
> We've used Netflix on our Tivo HD for two years with very few issues other than the occasional badly synced audio and nothing has changed that I'm aware of. We have 15/5 FiOS internet and the Tivo is connected wirelessly as it always has been. We've never had this problem with Netflix using our Wii or Roku box on the same network.
> 
> Any ideas on how to fix this or who it should be reported to? I have to assume it's a Tivo issue at this point. TIA!


I assume you have tried rebooting the TiVo (?).

Any other TiVo problems that started about the same time?

These symptoms are new to me and I've been following Netflix issues on this forum fairly closely.


----------



## abckids

dlfl said:


> I assume you have tried rebooting the TiVo (?).
> 
> Any other TiVo problems that started about the same time?
> 
> These symptoms are new to me and I've been following Netflix issues on this forum fairly closely.


For some reason it never occurred to me to try that. I just did and restarted the movie we gave up on last night, and it seems fine so far. There hadn't been any other Tivo problems that I'd noticed. It was really odd!

Thanks!


----------



## colin1497

Saw this thread came back up. I noticed almost all of my buffering issues go away when I changed out my wifi setup (bought 2 x WRT320N's, used 1 as a bridge using DD-WRT, used wired ethernet to bridge, turned on QOS as highest priority for the TiVo IP). I went from having times when it worked great to times when it was unwatchable or caused reboots, to almost always having it work great on my 5Mbps cable connection. Since my cable went up to 10Mbps it's been even better. Every once in a while a video stalls and completely drops out of the player, but I haven't had a reboot in a long time.


----------



## mikeyts

bicker said:


> I've been following that blog looking for some indication that they have a plan to provide closed captioning for all content brought into the system over the last few years, and going forward... I don't see anything evolving in that direct. It seems that they are content to just play with the idea of providing accommodation for the disabled.


I just noticed that there are some closed captioned titles in the PS3 Netflix streaming library. Not that many; I briefly scanned through the descriptions of about 20 titles and found 3 (_Paycheck_, _The Machinist_ and _Sleepers_). Not that this helps people with TiVos, but its another step in a positive direction.

EDIT: I found this site today, which lists 587 captioned Netflix streaming titles which they identified at this writing. It also states that captions are available for those titles on PC and Mac (announced a while ago) and PS3 and Wii. I checked the first several in the PS3's player and they all had available captions.


----------



## Bryanmc

I'm going through this thread, but thought I'd drop my question in just in case there's a quick answer.

Never had issues with Netflix on my TiVo HD, just switched to FiOS from Time Warner (wifi gear is the same, an Apple Airport Extreme) and ever since the menus take forever to load and sit on black screens for a long time. I see there's been some reference to something like this in the thread.

Playback seems to be fine, once we get to that point, but the menus are almost unusable as it's taking 20-40 seconds for each one to load.

Any fix to this?


----------



## dlfl

There have always seemed to be unknown factors about local network configurations (e.g. router) that impact Netflix performance, i.e., beyond just download speed. People with 20 Mbps download speeds have reported Netflix problems while some with only 3 Mbps do fine. My guess would be your new internet connection with FIOS has changed one of these factors. I'm assuming you've tested your download speeds and they are probably faster than what you had with TWC.


----------



## wulleymammoth

TiVoStephen said:


> Thanks everyone for using Netflix (as well as reporting the various issues some of you have experienced). I wanted to reiterate all of the known issues with Netflix, some of which have been discussed in other threads.
> 
> * Bad assets / Lip sync issues
> 
> If you watch a video and see excessive macroblocking or jerkiness, or lip sync issues, please contact Netflix at 1-877-NETFLIX (638-3549) to report the issue.
> 
> An asset is bad if you can reproduce the issue consistently.
> 
> Please note that the original PC client, XBox 360 units, and Roku units use a different set of video files than TiVo DVRs and the PC Silverlight player. Also, each video may be encoded in up to four different quality settings, and not all of the encodes may have the same issue. That's why Netflix would like customers to contact them via the phone regarding this issue, so that their agents, who are trained on the proper procedures, can assist with troubleshooting and diagnosis.
> 
> * Blank video for the first several seconds of playback
> 
> Users may experience a condition where during initial playback start, or resumption of playback after trickplay, you will hear the audio, but video takes several seconds to appear. Once the video appears, playback should be normal and be working correctly.
> 
> * Issues regarding the maximum number of concurrent streams
> 
> Occasionally you may begin playback of a Netflix video on a device (whether a PC, XBox, Roku, or TiVo DVR) and encounter an issue where Netflix servers believe you are still playing back a previous video on one of these devices. Depending on your type of account, you may not be able to proceed with a new video playback session. Netflix's servers still believe that the original video is being played back in the previous session. This should clear itself automatically in most cases in two hours or twenty-four hours. If you have any difficulty, please contact Netflix customer support.
> 
> * Issues regarding freezes and reboots
> 
> If you lose network connectivity (for example, if your router is unplugged or your ISP has a hiccup or the cat chews through the Ethernet cable) while watching a Netflix video, you may experience a rare issue with your DVR becoming completely unresponsive to the remote.
> 
> If your DVR does freeze, the only solution is to reboot the unit.
> 
> However, if you still do not have network connectivity during the boot up process, the boot will not finish. So you MUST have a working network to reboot, if you experience a freeze while using the Netflix application. If your reboot seems to take a long time (e.g. more than 5 minutes) we suggest that you confirm your network is up and running (e.g. verify with a PC on the network).
> 
> We're continuing to investigate this issue and are working on a fix for a future release.
> 
> We apologize for these problems and thank you for your patience.


I am a relatively-new Tivo Premiere owner, who's apparently experiencing a very-old issue; see the end of quoted post, circa 2008. I'm on my second Premiere now, due to the Netflix-reboot issue, which seems to have been unsolved, since it's confirmation by the original post, from Tivo. Unfortunately, I did not see this initial post, at the beginning of my "reboot experience", but did come to this same conclusion, on my own, when my second Tivo Premiere exhibited the reboot issue. The reboot issue was, and still is directly related to "loss of network connectivity, while streaming Netflix".

Contrary to the mention of this being "rare", the behavior can EASILY, and CONSISTENTLY be recreated, by simply disconnecting your network patch cable, or powering off your wireless bridge (in my case), which is connected to the Tivo, while it's streaming Netflix. Obviously, the stream will stop, and pause for a second, and then eventually (within a minute, usually), the screen will go black, and the Tivo will reboot. It would be much better, if the Tivo would simply "bail out" of the Netflix app, and return to a Tivo menu, of some sort; as my Playstation 3 does, during this same type of event. This would be MUCH less annoying, than a 5 minute or more reboot cycle.

I've also experienced unexplained lockups, while viewing TV, which I also believe are due to very-poor network error trapping, such as the "poor trap", in the case of loss of connectivity, with Netflix. The TV lock ups usually occur while in menus, which involve "show thumbnails", at the top of the screen, which are being received from the internet, during the loss of network connectivity.

I have over 25 years of IT experience, and understand that network communications can experience disruptions, from time to time. These disruptions can be minimized by: using superior hardware, using power-condition devices, etc., etc. But, in a home environment, a very-small percentage of people are going to take these measures. Therefore, you'd REALLY think, that the Tivo's hardware and software would be engineered, with this consideration in mind, and be A LOT MORE robust, in these situations, than it "obviously isn't".

I have PLENTY of other consumer-grade video products, in my home, which constantly use network, and internet access, without this degree of difficulty. You'd think that one of the Tivo's main functions, would be designed much better, than it appears to be.


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## dlfl

wulleymammoth said:


> ..........I have PLENTY of other consumer-grade video products, in my home, which constantly use network, and internet access, without this degree of difficulty. You'd think that one of the Tivo's main functions, would be designed much better, than it appears to be.


+1 :up:

Has been said many times and many places on these forums. If this makes TiVo not worth having, ask for a complete refund -- and report what happens here. The consensus is that any other Netflix box will do much better than TiVo so if you want to keep your TiVo, and Netflix is important, you might consider a Roku box, the cheapest Netflix device.


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## djwilso

dlfl said:


> +1 :up:
> 
> Has been said many times and many places on these forums. If this makes TiVo not worth having, ask for a complete refund -- and report what happens here. The consensus is that any other Netflix box will do much better than TiVo so if you want to keep your TiVo, and Netflix is important, you might consider a Roku box, the cheapest Netflix device.


+1 on the Roku. Its Netflix implementation is very good and the box gets firmware updates often to continually improve.


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## dlfl

wulleymammoth,

If not too inconvenient, try a hardwired ethernet connection to your TiVo. It frequently helps Netflix -- but not always.


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## bakerja

bakerja said:


> Been using netflix on my TIVO HD since it came out. At first it was great but as the Netflix library of HD titles grows, so does the rebuffering issues on the TIVO. I have pretty much given up on the TIVO for netflix now because I also have a PS3 which I watched HD movies almost continually during the Christmas holidays. It never even burped. Smooth as silk and the interface is so much nicer. I really wish a TIVO update would come around and fix the interface and performance issues.
> 
> jab


I decided to give NETFLIX a go again on my tivo HD and to my surprise, it is playing HD movies flawlessly! I have not changed anything in my network setup so I assume NETFLIX has done something because I could never play HD without constant rebuffering. I've watched several movies within the past week and they are all playing wonderfully!


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## bricketh

I am having the same jittery/skipping around/fast-moving issues that others have reported late last year on my Series 3, and it has only been evident in one series of shows (but all 3 seasons): H2O. My daughter loves this show, and watches it frequently, but it's unwatchable on her S3. I thought it was a wireless problem, but she gets an 86% signal strength, and can stream other HD shows without issues (The Office, and multiple movies have been tested, and work fine). 

The PS3 works fine with H2O, but since that is in the living room, that is where she watches H2O. Of all shows to have this issue, it has to be her favorite! I saw where Doctor Who had an issue... Is it possible that shows in foreign formats that are converted are an issue for some odd reason? H2O is an Australian show, and Doctor Who is from Great Britain, so not sure if the conversion process or format or something else plays a role in this frustrating issue... Then again, it doesn't happen on the British Office series, so maybe that is way off...

If it's hardware, and the only other fix is to re-encode the shows, then I guess it won't happen since this was being discussed late last year... I had called a week or so ago to report it to Netflix before I was aware of others with these issues, but they said any issues would be investigated and corrected within 24 to 48 hours. A week later, and nothing... Maybe there is nothing they can do, or maybe they just don't care enough to do so.... It's quite annoying though....


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## dlfl

There are a few videos that the TiVo Netflix playback just doesn't handle well. The Mr. Bean series is an example on my TiVo HD, and there have been a few others. You can talk to their support and report it but other than very polite words I don't think it gets you any action. You will notice in most (all?) Netflix ads they don't even mention TiVo as a platform. Apparently we are as unimportant to them as we are to the cable cos.


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## morac

dlfl said:


> There are a few videos that the TiVo Netflix playback just doesn't handle well. The Mr. Bean series is an example on my TiVo HD, and there have been a few others. You can talk to their support and report it but other than very polite words I don't think it gets you any action. You will notice in most (all?) Netflix ads they don't even mention TiVo as a platform. Apparently we are as unimportant to them as we are to the cable cos.


The Premiere handles Netflix videos better. There are videos that are unplayable on my S3 that work fine on the Premiere, presumably because it has a better decoder.


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## mikeyts

Some videos which don't work on the S3 work on the HD/HD XL. Different decoding chips. They could probably have re-encoded to compensate but why bother if they work on everything else? I don't think that they're commonplace.


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