# Eventually, will there be different types of Tivo Series 3 boxes???



## omelet1978 (Mar 7, 2006)

Ok, it sounds like the Series 3 box is going to come out pretty soon. It seems to be an extremely high end device with the cable cards and such.

Is Tivo going to come out with different types of Series 3 boxes? Like maybe a series 3 with the updated networking capabilities that does not record high defintion OR a box that can record two cable channels (not analog) at the same time? 

Series 3 with all the bells and whistles sounds awesome, but not everyone is willing to pay $500+ for a dvr. Series 2 is nice, but they still need to do some updating to keep competitive imho.


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## omelet1978 (Mar 7, 2006)

Oh, and one more thing. What exactly are Tivo's series 3 plans for satellite? I have directv right now, so if I am correct you can't hook up a series 3 to anything other than a cable box?


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

I think it will be a long time before we see TiVo functionality on the S3 that won't be available on the S2. The S2 is 99% of their market. The S3 offers hardware type differences such as HD and external Drive upgrades.

As for a Satellite HD TiVo beyond the old H10-250, I think that's a long way down the line if at all. DTV have their own solution as to Dish and the S3 is only possible on Cable because the FCC are stopping cable doing the same as the Satellite guys.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

omelet1978 said:


> Oh, and one more thing. What exactly are Tivo's series 3 plans for satellite? I have directv right now, so if I am correct you can't hook up a series 3 to anything other than a cable box?


Tivo doesn't have a deal with any satellite provider that's been announced for HD functionality.

An S3 replaces the cable box and cannot be hooked up to a cable box. The only inputs to an S3 are a coaxial antenna input and a coaxial cable input. No IR blasters, no s-video, no composite.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Is Tivo going to come out with different types of Series 3 boxes? Like maybe a series 3 with the updated networking capabilities that does not record high defintion OR a box that can record two cable channels (not analog) at the same time?


The Series3 replaces the cable box; it will not work with a cable box.

The potential for cost savings is minimal. They could use a smaller hard drive and cut out the off-air capability, but high-definition is all integrated into the chip that provides OpenCable (CableCard) support. They can't cut out analog cable, cause virtually all cable systems still use analog to deliver some channels.

Instead, I think you'll see the Series3 fall in price over time, as the components become cheaper. If you think the S3 is overpriced now, consider that DirecTV's newest H20 HDTV DVR -- with far less functionality -- costs about $820 if you want to buy it. The $399 price often quoted for the DirecTV H20 DVR is the lease price -- you have to pay DirecTV $399 + $5/mo DVR service + $5/mo per TV and you don't own the box; you've got to return it when you cancel service.



> What exactly are Tivo's series 3 plans for satellite? I have directv right now, so if I am correct you can't hook up a series 3 to anything other than a cable box?


There are no plans for Series3 satellite.

We have Dish Network and DirecTV to blame for the lack of a Series3 satellite. Those providers will not allow (in the case of DirecTV, no longer allow) Tivo to produce DVRs for their satellite systems. They both use encryption and will not grant Tivo a license to implement their encryption system in a product.

The technology does not exist to record HDTV from component and DVI/HDMI in a consumer product --- the professional broadcast products with this capability are twice the size of your computer and cost thousands of dollars -- so access to the Dish and DirecTV encryption systems was the only option Tivo had to build a HDTV Tivo for satellite.

I'm sure you've heard about the suit against Dish Network...which chose to implement much of Tivo's functionality on its own, infringing Tivo's patents, rather than allow Tivo to compete for its HDTV DVR customers by granting them access to its encryption platform.

In contrast, our government mandated that all cable providers open their encryption systems to third-parties like Tivo by way of one common standard known as OpenCable (CableCard). For this reason, and this reason alone, we will have products like the Tivo Series3 that replace the cable box / cable DVR. Over-the-air broadcasting (ATSC) is also an open standard, so the Series3 incorporates dual tuners for that as well.


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## mbalgeman (Feb 6, 2002)

omelet1978 said:


> Is Tivo going to come out with different types of Series 3 boxes? Like maybe a series 3 with the updated networking capabilities that does not record high defintion OR a box that can record two cable channels (not analog) at the same time?


What you are describing sounds a lot like the Series 2 DT (ethernet port built in and dual tuners)? What's the difference between what you are asking for and what already exists? Maybe just the ability to record 2 digital channels at the same time?


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

mbalgeman said:


> Maybe just the ability to record 2 digital channels at the same time?


But that is one of the things the S3 resolves. You don't have to use the S3 for HD, you can easiliy use it as a dual tuner digital SD box.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

mbalgeman said:


> What you are describing sounds a lot like the Series 2 DT (ethernet port built in and dual tuners)? What's the difference between what you are asking for and what already exists? Maybe just the ability to record 2 digital channels at the same time?


Series 3 probably will get cheaper over time and maybe get new simpler hardware, but a new version probably won't operate much differently or offer reduced (or increased) capabilities.

What needs to get changed is Series 2! The current dual tuner Series 2 was essentially a technical dinasour even when first released. Upgrading Series 2 wouldn't be rocket science and the upgrade would probably cost less than $100.

To keep costs down a revised Series 2 should include only one internal analog cable tuner, but support two composite line-inputs and at least one S-video jack. The goal should be to provide access to all programming sources which will be available after analog broadcasting ends in 2009, but not to record in hi-def, a capability which requires expensive hardware.

What Series 2 needs is:

1. The capability to control STB's from all three digital program sources; cable, OTA, and satellite, as well as tuning analog cable from its internal tuner.
2. The ability to integrate an OTA STB with digital cable and satellite STB's as well as analog cable. 
3. The capability to record from any two of the four potential sources simultaneously.

The Series 2.5 (Series 4?) TiVo should be priced around $200 before any (optional) promotional incentives are applied. If TiVo offered it, I'd buy Series 2.5/4.0, and forget Series 3 with its CableCards, huge hard drive requirements, and high prices!


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

I think bkdtv's post pretty much sums it up.

What will happen is that the Series 3, like the Series 2, will drop in price over time. We might see a refresh of the Series 3 when the components get significantly less expensive.

Then we'll all wonder when the Series 4 will come out with CableCard 2.0 support (or whatever the next thing is).


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> I think bkdtv's post pretty much sums it up.
> 
> What will happen is that the Series 3, like the Series 2, will drop in price over time. We might see a refresh of the Series 3 when the components get significantly less expensive.
> 
> Then we'll all wonder when the Series 4 will come out with CableCard 2.0 support (or whatever the next thing is).


Series 3.5/4.0 w/CableCARD 2.0 will probably be the next real upgrade for the Series 3. But no matter how much Series 3's price may drop, for the forseeable future it will probably cost three times as much as a standard-def TiVo. While Series 3 (+) definitely deserves to be TiVo's flagship product IMHO it won't pay the freight for TiVo to maintain a viable marketing position over the next few years.

I went to Circuit City yesterday to check out the Labor Day sale offerings. All the VCR's and DVR's had been relocated to a display toward the back of the store and were hard to find.

Out on the main floor, along with all the snazzy new HDTV's, were strategically placed DirecTV STB's and DVR's as well as Comcast's dual-tuner HD DVR. To show off Sony's 60" 1080p RPTV, there was a Sony DHG-HDD250 DVR not available for sale set up to provide a special 1080p feed to the TV. In back, with the mundane recorders, Circuit City offered the still elegible for Lifetime Service Humax TiVo DVR/DVD recorder for $279 less a $150 rebate.

TiVo needs a volume product that an average TV viewer will readily buy. A relatively inexpensive DVR which offers true standalone capabilities would be unique in today's increasingly fragmented market.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> TiVo needs a volume product that an average TV viewer will readily buy. A relatively inexpensive DVR which offers true standalone capabilities would be unique in today's increasingly fragmented market.


They have that today with the DT.

How can Tivo possibly come out with a mass-market HD product, given that the cost to build the box likely exceeds what most are willing to pay?

If people had to buy the cable DVRs, rather than lease them, few would have them.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> ...To show off Sony's 60" 1080p RPTV, there was a Sony DHG-HDD250 DVR not available for sale set up to provide a special 1080p feed to the TV...


I didn't think the Sony DHG supported that rez?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> I didn't think the Sony DHG supported that rez?


Me neither!

Hey, it was a Circuit City sales dude who said it was a "special feed" recorded by Sony for the Sony 1080p TV; does anybody really know?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> They have that today with the DT.
> 
> How can Tivo possibly come out with a mass-market HD product, given that the cost to build the box likely exceeds what most are willing to pay?
> 
> If people had to buy the cable DVRs, rather than lease them, few would have them.


I disagree.

The dual tuner Series 2 is far from a "standalone" DVR. Series 3 *IS* (almost) a "standalone" DVR, but isn't "mass-market". *Post #8* about upgrading Series 2 specifically excluded hi-def recording.

A digital cable or satellite account includes a STB. Only an ATSC OTA STB needs to be purchased, and there will even be vouchers available toward doing so. 20 million OTA viewers are worth considering. TiVo could work for them and hopefully make money doing so!


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Sorry - missed "standalone", but my general comment still applies - it won't happen because the cost to produce one exceeds the price most are willing to pay.

Look at the Sony and LG offerings.


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

nhaigh said:


> As for a Satellite HD TiVo beyond the old H10-250, I think that's a long way down the line if at all. DTV have their own solution as to Dish and the S3 is only possible on Cable because the FCC are stopping cable doing the same as the Satellite guys.


The "old" H10-250 (HR10-250 actually) is still being sold today.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

Stanley Rohner said:


> The "old" H10-250 (HR10-250 actually) is still being sold today.


Yes, but it doesn't stand a chance of getting improved and won't be able to exploit the future mpeg4 programming from DTV. The current product from DTV is the NDS HD box, not the TiVo no matter how much we wish it was otherwise. This is why I'm moving away from DTV for HD content.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> my general comment still applies - it won't happen because the cost to produce one exceeds the price most are willing to pay.


So how do you explain the S3 itself?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> Sorry - missed "standalone", but my general comment still applies - it won't happen because the cost to produce one exceeds the price most are willing to pay.
> 
> Look at the Sony and LG offerings.


I assume that you're referring to their discontinued hi-def DVR's which weren't profitable:

*Sony DHG*

*LG LST 3410A*

You don't think that TiVo may offer something new after the initial influx of orders for Series 3?

Why do you believe that a true "standalone" Series 2 would cost too much?

If TiVo really needed to cut costs they could offer the exact same hardware that current dual analog tuner Series 2's employ with one of the analog tuner inputs enabled to control an ATSC STB via channel 3. Users would have to select either cable or satellite when they chose options in "Guided Setup" and only one would be available at a given time (as at present), but the chosen option could be changed by re-runnning Guided Setup. I bet such a software upgrade could be offered at less than a $100 per box cost increase when amortized by TiVo.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

A premium market segment will buy the S3, to begin with anyway.

Down the road, they could prouduce a single tuner chain S3 with firewire in and tuner control, and no cool front panel, and leave some other cost raising features off.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> So how do you explain the S3 itself?


It exceeds the price most people are willing to pay, so what's to explain?


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> What needs to get changed is Series 2! The current dual tuner Series 2 was essentially a technical dinasour even when first released.


How so? New, faster CPU. Twice the RAM. New encoders. Built-in Ethernet.



> To keep costs down a revised Series 2 should include only one internal analog cable tuner, but support two composite line-inputs and at least one S-video jack.


That'd be a step backwards. Close to 50% of TiVo's customers are analog cable users. They use both internal analog tuners. And there isn't going to be much savings. You still need everything else without the tuner.

Controling two external devices is more of a hassle. The big problem would be IR cross-talk. Reflected IR meant for Box A being seen by Box B, and vice-versa. So TiVo would need to get average users to do IR tents/forts. And what market is there? How many people are going to opt for two satellite receivers or two cable boxes, etc, plus a TiVo, and all the cables, IR forts, etc - instead of just getting a dual-tuner cable or satellite DVR, or a Series3? Especially with the unavoidable quality loss any analog loop and re-encoding on the TiVo will cause?

Supporting an external OTA tuner can be done today with a software update, and perhaps they will down the road. But TiVo knows what their userbase is, and the largest segment is analog cable, then digital cable.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> I assume that you're referring to their discontinued hi-def DVR's which weren't profitable:
> 
> *Sony DHG*
> 
> *LG LST 3410A*


Yes.



> You don't think that TiVo may offer something new after the initial influx of orders for Series 3?


You mean hardware? No.



> Why do you believe that a true "standalone" Series 2 would cost too much?


No one would buy a standalone box that didn't record HD. People didn't even buy the standalone boxes that did.



> If TiVo really needed to cut costs they could offer the exact same hardware that current dual analog tuner Series 2's employ with one of the analog tuner inputs enabled to control an ATSC STB via channel 3. Users would have to select either cable or satellite when they chose options in "Guided Setup" and only one would be available at a given time (as at present), but the chosen option could be changed by re-runnning Guided Setup. I bet such a software upgrade could be offered at less than a $100 per box cost increase when amortized by TiVo.


And why would Tivo do that?


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> ...Then we'll all wonder when the Series 4 will come out with CableCard 2.0 support (or whatever the next thing is).


Time travel so you can watch shows from the 50's.

Catered.

Catered time travel.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Poor Mr. Troll, he gets smacked around so much. He hasn't got the mix quite right, but the overall idea that other model(s) are needed and feasible is correct.

So how about let's stop playing Whack a Troll, stop being naysayers, and sit down and work out what would really be some good, marketable feature sets for other TiVo models?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I think perhaps a reasonable upgrade to the coming S3 is to add 1 or 2 firewire ports - this opens up possibilty of using set top boxes with firewire ports to be controlled by the S3. Tuning is supported via firewire port so IR blaster capability would not be necessary. This would solve potential problems with SDV and also potentially allow use of satellite boxes with firewire ports (if there are any such beasts?). Plus there are other potential uses for firewire - as outputs to TV displays and also as a means to archive shows to DVHS or DVD recorder and/or PC/Mac.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> What needs to get changed is Series 2! The current dual tuner Series 2 was essentially a technical dinasour even when first released.





megazone said:


> How so? New, faster CPU. Twice the RAM. New encoders. Built-in Ethernet.


Hey, at least it's the newest latest and fastest dinasour!



> To keep costs down a revised Series 2 should include only one internal analog cable tuner, but support two composite line-inputs and at least one S-video jack.





> That'd be a step backwards. Close to 50% of TiVo's customers are analog cable users. They use both internal analog tuners. And there isn't going to be much savings. You still need everything else without the tuner.
> 
> Controling two external devices is more of a hassle. The big problem would be IR cross-talk. Reflected IR meant for Box A being seen by Box B, and vice-versa. So TiVo would need to get average users to do IR tents/forts. And what market is there? How many people are going to opt for two satellite receivers or two cable boxes, etc, plus a TiVo, and all the cables, IR forts, etc - instead of just getting a dual-tuner cable or satellite DVR, or a Series3? Especially with the unavoidable quality loss any analog loop and re-encoding on the TiVo will cause?
> 
> Supporting an external OTA tuner can be done today with a software update, and perhaps they will down the road. But TiVo knows what their userbase is, and the largest segment is analog cable, then digital cable.


I posted a revised suggestion in post *#19* which would eliminate using both satellite and cable STB's at the same time, but retain the ability to use either (as at present). I never proposed supporting two identical cable or satellite STB's at the same time.

*"If TiVo really needed to cut costs they could offer the exact same hardware that current dual analog tuner Series 2's employ with one of the analog tuner inputs enabled to control an ATSC STB via channel 3. Users would have to select either cable or satellite when they chose options in "Guided Setup" and only one would be available at a given time (as at present), but the chosen option could be changed by re-runnning Guided Setup. I bet such a software upgrade could be offered at less than a $100 per box cost increase when amortized by TiVo."*

The essential modifications to drag the dual tuner Series 2 back to the future are:
(1) ATSC STB support, and (2) the ability to use that STB along with either a digital cable STB or satellite STB. Current (single tuner) Series 2's can't combine OTA channels with cable channels in the same channel line-up (but they can with satellite), a significant shortcoming.

As I've posted elsewhere, picture quality resulting from recording programs from a digital STB through a line input is better than from the internal tuners of any of the three brands of analog DVR's which I own; TiVo, ReplayTV, and LG.

Yes, ATSC STB support could be added by a software update and my guestimate above of "$100" per box is way too high. The only required change to the current dual tuner Series 2 would basically add OTA STB support.

A non hi-def dual source TiVo minimally should be capable of simultaneously receiving two analog cable channels, *OR* one analog cable (or VHF OTA) channel plus one OTA or cable channel (through STB's), *OR* one digital cable channel plus one OTA channel (through STB's) *OR* one satellite channel (through a STB) plus an OTA channel (through a STB).


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> No one would buy a standalone box that didn't record HD. People didn't even buy the standalone boxes that did.


Huh? That's exactly what a Series 2 does!


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> Poor Mr. Troll, he gets smacked around so much. He hasn't got the mix quite right, but the overall idea that other model(s) are needed and feasible is correct.
> 
> So how about let's stop playing Whack a Troll, stop being naysayers, and sit down and work out what would really be some good, marketable feature sets for other TiVo models?


I'll mix it up with you. What's your idea?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Huh? That's exactly what a Series 2 does!


Ummm, weren't you the one that said the Series 2 WASN'T a STANDALONE DVR?

Which side of this argument would you like to make? I'll take the other.


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## Stephen Tu (May 10, 1999)

Tivo Troll, I guess basically what you are asking for is series 2 control of OTA ATSC STB? Who exactly do you think is calling for this, besides yourself? ATSC standalone STB never sold in huge numbers, they have been an extremely small niche product. The early adopters who bought them, bought them to get HD when it was the only way to get HD. No HD via sat, no HD via cable. Most of these people have already moved on to HD capable recording solutions for cable/sat/ota, and/or will get series 3 if they think features/price is reasonable vs. what they are using now.

Some years ago, before the HR10-250, before cable HD DVRs, you'd see an occasional post asking for IR control of something like a Samsung SIR-T150 STB. Nobody really seems to care about that these days except you. ATSC STB early adopters generally want to record in HD, they don't want to record downconverted unless they have no other reasonable alternative. This hasn't been the case for some years now.

As analog shutdown approaches, when all the analog only OTA users have to go buy these cheap STB that are supposed to come out, _maybe_ Tivo adds some codes & guide data to support these. But only if there is sufficient demand to warrant the engineering effort. These people who have analog OTA only have very little overlap with Tivo's subscriber base in my estimation. ~84-85% of TV households have cable or satellite. Of Tivo customers, I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least 95% or even higher.

You should be hoping for fast cost reductions on series 3, not additions to series 2. Series 2 is a dying technology.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Stephen Tu said:


> ....something like a Samsung SIR-T150 STB. Nobody really seems to care about that these days except you...


Hey....that's not right. I've been using a Sammy SIR-T151 for over three years now and enjoying it!

And, when I have my S3, I'll give my Sammy to my daughter to use in her apartment so she can pick up all the digitals OTA. She can't afford cable right now.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> Ummm, weren't you the one that said the Series 2 WASN'T a STANDALONE DVR?
> 
> Which side of this argument would you like to make? I'll take the other.


Dual tuner Series 2's aren't "standalone" DVR's and don't record in hi-def.

IMHO, Series 2 dual source DVR's should be standalone DVR's which record standard-def from all available sources!

To update my suggestion from *post #27*:

A dual tuner Series 2 which could control an ATSC OTA STB would require a fairly minor hardware revision. It would either require two coax inputs instead of the existing one which is split internally, or a second line input.

Another feature which I'd like to see, but which isn't likely to be offered, and isn't crucial to the concept, is the ability to select between either a letterboxed 16 x 9 display (the default) or a cropped 4 x 3 image which would completely fill a traditional TV screen.

If TiVo would offer it (and I doubt they will) the best way of dealing with screen ratio differences between typical standard and hi-def signals would be to offer screen ratios displayed in user selected steps. Some movies utilize widescreen formats greater than 16 x 9 which are little more than 4 inches high on a typical 27" TV screen .


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Stephen Tu said:


> Tivo Troll, I guess basically what you are asking for is series 2 control of OTA ATSC STB? Who exactly do you think is calling for this, besides yourself? ATSC standalone STB never sold in huge numbers, they have been an extremely small niche product. The early adopters who bought them, bought them to get HD when it was the only way to get HD. No HD via sat, no HD via cable. Most of these people have already moved on to HD capable recording solutions for cable/sat/ota, and/or will get series 3 if they think features/price is reasonable vs. what they are using now.
> 
> Some years ago, before the HR10-250, before cable HD DVRs, you'd see an occasional post asking for IR control of something like a Samsung SIR-T150 STB. Nobody really seems to care about that these days except you. ATSC STB early adopters generally want to record in HD, they don't want to record downconverted unless they have no other reasonable alternative. This hasn't been the case for some years now.
> 
> ...


Analog TV's will be around for a long while yet. I'm not talking about anything "early adapters" have an interest in; I'm talking about what would be useful to TiVo's mass-market users, who will remain TiVo's primary revenue source indefinitely.

I don't need a DVR that records hi-def. I've already got a dual tuner hi-def DVR from my cable company for $10 monthly which works well .

I need a standard-def TiVo DVR which will record from all available digital and analog sources, which costs no more than $100 over the price of a current single or dual tuner Series 2. Series 3 won't offer that capability at any price, but Series 2 easily could.


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## Stephen Tu (May 10, 1999)

Series 2 is a standalone DVR by almost everyone's definition of "standalone", a DVR not integrated with a satellite/cable STB. If you don't consider it standalone you are using an atypical definition of "standalone".



> I don't need a DVR that records hi-def. I've already got a dual tuner hi-def DVR from my cable company for $10 monthly which works well .
> 
> I need a standard-def TiVo DVR


If you already have an HD DVR from you cable company, what do you need a SD Tivo that records from OTA digital STBs for? Just use the cable company DVR. The only additional thing you would get is downconverted signals from local digital stations your cable company doesn't carry yet. This is a temporary situation; eventually the cable company should carry all your HD locals & you'll be able to record them on the cable company DVR. This is just not a problem for most people, their cable company carries the digital locals they want, or they are content to record the analog equivalent for now. There are stations scattered around the country that haven't yet gotten carriage for their digital signals due to various contract issues, bandwidth constraints, but surely they will get something done by the time of analog shutoff.

A series 2 covers std def needs for almost all cable users already. Series 3 covers people with HD needs, only problem is that it's rather expensive now & faces tough competition from the cable company DVRs. After that, who else is left? Satellite users will use the satellite company DVRs. Typical OTA only users aren't that interested in DVRs. You are pitching a product for a negligible target market. The mass market you speak of don't have & aren't going to get digital OTA STBs. They have analog or analog+digital cable now, they will get digital locals eventually also through cable, not OTA. They will choose between series 2, series 3, & the cable company DVR based on price & feature needs. Tivo has to get the price on the series 3 down quickly to be competitive. But adding ability to record downconverted to analog SD from OTA digital STB is not something that's going to win them more than a tiny handful of users. There just aren't that many people out there with digital OTA STBs interested in recording the signal downconverted!


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

The word you are looking for might be Integrated.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

Some comments.

The S2.5 box that TiVo Troll has described is simply an S2 with Software modified such that the OTA STB, Cable STB, and Sat STB programming all plays nicely. HW is basically the same such that you either have Analog Cable, or Analog AV Inputs into the box w/ IR blaster controlling STBs.

Again, there would not need to be anything done from a HW standpoint. SW costs is only developement costs. Difficulty is in being able to identify that Program A may potentially be on all three systems with slightly different descriptions, how to resolve conflicts? Simple make sure the descriptions are matching across. 

This IMHO is simply a S2 DT w/ SW upgrade.

The other question is dumbing down an S3.

Basically S3 is an ATSC, NTSC, Analog Cable, Digital Cable capable. 

ATSC is Digital TV (NOT HDTV although HDTV is a part of it)
Digital Cable requires Decryption - Need CableCARD.

You're not going to drop cost much by leaving out the HD portion of it. An ATSC tuner is need for all broadcasts after the switch over. Digital Cable requires CableCARD period. Cost differences between being able to handle HD on Digital Cable vs SD only is almost nill.

The biggest savings would be on HDMI outputs. 

Not too much savings, eh?

With this, there's the complaint - Why don't they add the ability to record from an external STB? My question back, is why bother to pay for another Encoder inside, increasing the complexity of the SW, and have lower quality video? 

S3 is the right box for the DTV (That's Digital TV  ) market. Especially for the HDTV side of the DTV market. The vast majority of us agree that $799 is too high for large number of buyers. But it will get some buyers, prices will adjust, R&D costs will be recouped, prices will adjust again, component costs will drop, prices will adjust again. Two years top this will be selling for $200 or less. It'll be late 2008, we'll finally be pushing over to Analog Shut off. HDTV will be pushing the barrier of being in 75%+ of US Homes.

More people will have the taste of DVRs (Fast ramp of DVRs supplied by cable providers - Yes, I know many people have had a lot of bad experiences with them, but the thing you got to remember is They Are getting better, and it cost very little to try it out to see if you like it.) But there a fair amount of TiVo based SW that's patented that still makes it a better solution, and at the right price TiVo can still sell the boxes and make their money from the subscription base.

CCourtney


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> I think perhaps a reasonable upgrade to the coming S3 is to add 1 or 2 firewire ports - this opens up possibilty of using set top boxes with firewire ports to be controlled by the S3. Tuning is supported via firewire port so IR blaster capability would not be necessary. This would solve potential problems with SDV and also potentially allow use of satellite boxes with firewire ports (if there are any such beasts?). Plus there are other potential uses for firewire - as outputs to TV displays and also as a means to archive shows to DVHS or DVD recorder and/or PC/Mac.


to get cablecard 2-way approval apparently they need to include firewire.

I'm hoping for cablecard 2-way approval on a series 3.5 sometime in the next year or 2...

hope being the operative word..


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## sommerfeld (Feb 26, 2006)

omelet1978 said:


> Is Tivo going to come out with different types of Series 3 boxes?


Undoubtedly they will.

1) variable disk space. the disk drive market pretty much guarantees this.

2) will lose one of the cable card slots once multistream cards are generally available from all providers..

what i'd love to see:
3) "thin client" tivo: lose the coax inputs, tuners, etc; keep the ethernet port and do MRV and playback in HD but no recording. cheaper than a dedicated pc + tivo to go, for that 2nd or 3rd TV. 
low development cost because you're just removing functional units. if your network is good enough, you might even be able to lose the hard drive.

4) tivocluster: better than MRV. make 2 or more tivos act together as a big 2*N-tuner tivo; they share season passes and distribute the recording jobs around so you don't have to.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Stephen Tu said:


> Series 2 is a standalone DVR by almost everyone's definition of "standalone", a DVR not integrated with a satellite/cable STB. If you don't consider it standalone you are using an atypical definition of "standalone".


Whatever it's called Series 2 totally ignores cable customers who also receive OTA channels in both digital and analog formats which are unavailable from cable, plus the more than 18 million TV viewers who receive OTA only, the second largest single category of TV viewers.



> If you already have an HD DVR from you cable company, what do you need a SD Tivo that records from OTA digital STBs for? Just use the cable company DVR. The only additional thing you would get is downconverted signals from local digital stations your cable company doesn't carry yet. This is a temporary situation; eventually the cable company should carry all your HD locals & you'll be able to record them on the cable company DVR. This is just not a problem for most people, their cable company carries the digital locals they want, or they are content to record the analog equivalent for now. There are stations scattered around the country that haven't yet gotten carriage for their digital signals due to various contract issues, bandwidth constraints, but surely they will get something done by the time of analog shutoff.
> 
> A series 2 covers std def needs for almost all cable users already. Series 3 covers people with HD needs, only problem is that it's rather expensive now & faces tough competition from the cable company DVRs. After that, who else is left? Satellite users will use the satellite company DVRs. Typical OTA only users aren't that interested in DVRs. You are pitching a product for a negligible target market. The mass market you speak of don't have & aren't going to get digital OTA STBs. They have analog or analog+digital cable now, they will get digital locals eventually also through cable, not OTA. They will choose between series 2, series 3, & the cable company DVR based on price & feature needs. Tivo has to get the price on the series 3 down quickly to be competitive. But adding ability to record downconverted to analog SD from OTA digital STB is not something that's going to win them more than a tiny handful of users. There just aren't that many people out there with digital OTA STBs interested in recording the signal downconverted!


Thanks for the lecture. We disagree almost completely. But does it really matter? TiVo's gonna' do whatever makes sense for the company, not you or me.

Digital reception does not equate to hi-def. When analog OTA is shut down in 2009 many people will probably buy relatively cheap ATSC STB's and keep their existing TV's. But right now NTSC/ATSC STB's can receive channels which aren't available from cable for many TV viewers.

In case you haven't figured it out I have more than one cable outlet and TV set. One of my TV's is hi-def and is connected to the cable company's dual-tuner hi-def DVR. The other three aren't.
___________________________________________________________

I started to reply to this thread earlier but was pleasantly interrupted by the Comcast installer who installed an additional coax outlet in a location which had been supplied only from a wireless remote controlled sender from an adjacent room. The cost for that installation was 21.99.

More interestingly (and the excuse for the trip) was that he also installed a CableCARD in my Sony hi-def DHG-HDD500 DVR. I was again pleasantly surprised that although he had to run some numbers by his office technician a couple of times before the CC was acknowledged, essentially it worked without requiring a great deal of fussing. Yes, many people could "do-it-themselves" (and many probably couldn't). For $15.99 from Comcast I'd say it was a pretty fair deal!

I'm a hobbiest in the TV and DVR area. I wanted to see how well the Sony DVR works but also wanted to integrate OTA channels into a single channel line-up with cable. It'll take awhile to check out the capabilities of Sony's DVR, but for the first time I have that elusive integrated channel line-up! If a Series 2 TiVo for $200 could integrate OTA with cable it could have filled that bill just as well as Sony's $600 DVR. The TV receiver I'm using is a just a standard-def CRT.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

CCourtney said:


> Some comments.
> 
> The S2.5 box that TiVo Troll has described is simply an S2 with Software modified such that the OTA STB, Cable STB, and Sat STB programming all plays nicely. HW is basically the same such that you either have Analog Cable, or Analog AV Inputs into the box w/ IR blaster controlling STBs.
> 
> ...


Almost, but not quite. The hardware changes needed would be *minor*. "A dual tuner Series 2 which could control an ATSC OTA STB...would either require two coax inputs instead of the existing one which is split internally, or a second line input."

Updating the channel line-ups and IR codes would be more costly. Of course most of the line-up changes would already be entered into Series 3's database.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Stephen Tu said:


> If you already have an HD DVR from you cable company, what do you need a SD Tivo that records from OTA digital STBs for? Just use the cable company DVR. The only additional thing you would get is downconverted signals from local digital stations your cable company doesn't carry yet. This is a temporary situation; eventually the cable company should carry all your HD locals & you'll be able to record them on the cable company DVR.


Are cable companies required to carry all subchannels of a broadcast channel too?
(e.g., in the Bay Area, KQED, a PBS station, has several subchannels, and one of them rebroadcasts the most well known PBS shows. While they and another of the PBS stations also rebroadcasts shows on their main channel, I would more likely catch some of the rebroadcasts on the specific 'rerun' channel..)


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## Stephen Tu (May 10, 1999)

They aren't required to carry digital anything, legally. Only thing forcing them is consumer demand, threat of people defecting to sat/OTA if they don't carry HD. Must-carry for digital, multi-channel is still unsettled. Comcast is currently carrying the KQED subchannels in SF bay area.


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## bluewizard (Apr 30, 2006)

I am 1 of those 18 million that does not have cable and wants Digital OTA. I would LOVE to have something that my tivo S2 could control that would get the Digital OTA broadcasts. Does anyone know of something that will let me does this? If so what do I need to do to make it work? 

Thanks


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Buying an S3 is out of the question? It natively tunes ATSC - dual-tuners.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

sommerfeld said:


> Undoubtedly they will.
> 
> 1) variable disk space. the disk drive market pretty much guarantees this.
> 
> ...


#3 is a very good suggestion. Such a "TiVo Extender" would be a great complement to a Series 3, and it would only need ethernet in and hdmi out. Preferrably they could sell it without any harddrive, but have an eSATA connection on it just like the S3. The price for a unit like that should be very low. It should also function as a player for other media on computers on the network, of course.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> #3 is a very good suggestion. Such a "TiVo Extender" would be a great complement to a Series 3, and it would only need ethernet in and hdmi out. Preferrably they could sell it without any harddrive, but have an eSATA connection on it just like the S3. The price for a unit like that should be very low. It should also function as a player for other media on computers on the network, of course.


I second the idea of an extender.

However, it wouldn't be as simple or as cheap as you imply. The hard drive is only a small percentage of the unit's cost. The "heart" of the units would have to be of similar capability to decode the high-def signals and support "trick play" functions, but they could do away with the hard drive and tuners. They might be able to use a less-featured (and thereby less costly) chipset. By cutting out the hard drive and tuners, and using a less capable chipset from Broadcom, they could probably manufacture such a product for $150-200.


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## ITGuy72 (Aug 10, 2005)

Something along the lines of the way the XBOX360 is an extender for Media Center would be cool.


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## bluewizard (Apr 30, 2006)

megazone said:


> Buying an S3 is out of the question? It natively tunes ATSC - dual-tuners.


Right now it is, if the rumored price of $800 is what it is that is WAY more than I am going to spend to just use it for OTA broadcasts (which is what I do now).

I had thought of MYTHTV as well but that seems a tad expensive as well.

Oh well.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

MickeS said:


> #3 is a very good suggestion. Such a "TiVo Extender" would be a great complement to a Series 3, and it would only need ethernet in and hdmi out. Preferrably they could sell it without any harddrive, but have an eSATA connection on it just like the S3. The price for a unit like that should be very low. It should also function as a player for other media on computers on the network, of course.


have to second bkdtv's thoughts, buit i'm even more pessimistic.

Without coming out with a whole new product, hyou can basically ony strip the 2 atsc tuners from the series 3, all the rest of the tuners are built into the main chip (If I follow correctly).

so as bkdtv says they could pick a lower chip then the brain the series 3 will have, but who even knows if broadcomm makes such a chip. It seems they are integrating the things more and more, so i'm not sure they even have one with mpeg2,4,vlc playback that doesn't come with all the tuner functions. The most current chip in the line, even has some satellite tv functions besides the cable tv functions, so they are looking to make a universal chip that does it all.

So tivo would need to reengineer the whole thing. Would that be worth it right now? I dont know. Maybe in a couple years when the market would be larger as HDTV gets more entrenched there would be a bigger market for such a box and the chipsets would be a bunch cheaper. But at that point the series 3 might be only $199 or $299 anyway so would it be worth creating a whole new product just to shave off a small fraction of the price?

And getting a monthly fee for such a box is an even tougher sell since it does nothing on it's won really. So they would be less likely to subsidize such a thing (if they couldn't get a recurring fee).

Funny thing is if you dig around I believe that was TiVo's original concept, a central server with thin clients but it just worked out it was cheaper to go the current route and i'm not sure that changes anytime soon.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Dual tuner Series 2's aren't "standalone" DVR's and don't record in hi-def.


How are they *not* Stanadlones?


> A dual tuner Series 2 which could control an ATSC OTA STB would require a fairly minor hardware revision. It would either require two coax inputs instead of the existing one which is split internally, or a second line input.


Nope, wouldn't have to. Controlling an ATSC box is purely software.

Unless you have some particularily wierd situation, I see no reason to modfiy the Series 2 hardware platform to incorpotate ATSC box support. If you mean integrating the DT with analog cable, The DT need not be modified, simply used the analog tuner for cable, the STB input for the ASTC tuner.

What I'd like is you do GS twice, once for one tuner, the STB input with options for satellite, cable box, IPTV box, ATSC box, or analog cable, and the analog tuner only have analog cable (same as other tuner, if set up as analog), and ATSC box, if the other input is not set for ATSC


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> Without coming out with a whole new product, hyou can basically ony strip the 2 atsc tuners from the series 3, all the rest of the tuners are built into the main chip (If I follow correctly).


We'd have to wait to be sure, but I think that the same hardware is basically used to receive ATSC and digital cable (same for analog), on a per tuner bank basis.

To really cut costs and notice, they'd have to eliminate one tuner bank, the front panel, other ancillary items a license fee needs paid for.

Now a dual tuner digital cable only (no ATSC, no analog antenna or cable) basic panel could be a start, and likely made from the S3 platform (leaving parts off).

Maybe have an SD only video decoder (which also means it will not record HD).


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

the chip spec posted here in a bunch of threads says the say3 will have a broadcom PVR on a chip which has all the daul tuner pvr functions including Cablecard/NTSC tuners. I think it also has the modem and the hdmi stuff on that one chip. The only significant thing missing form that one chip is apparently the 2 ATSC tuners.

So if I'm understanding correctly, you can only basically strip the 2 ATSC tuners as everything else is already built into the broadcomm chip.

Since that one chip does so much, I think it would be a lot of effort to reengineer a slimmer version since you would need to find a whole new chip to build the thing on. And you might want up having 3 or 4 chips to replace the one chip but with even less functionality.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

What would be kind of nice for us non-HD people is an S2DT + CableCard. No need to change anything else about the setup. Just don't tune the HD channels and all is well. Even make it cable only and drop ATSC support. I would pay about $200-300 per box and buy 2-4 of them if they existed. I want the full Tivo experience, DTV boxes can't get it, but I require MRV and digital cable if I'm to drop my DTivos. $800 per box is too much for me as I don't need HD, but nothing else can give me a clean soultion like the DTivo boxes. 

What I would like to see:

S2DT platform/features
CableCard support (dual and/or multistream ala S3)
SD Cable + Digital Cable and analog OTA only is fine. SD ATSC would be nice. 
$300 per box max

Not likely to happen, but it would be a good in-between box for those of us who would like the cable integration but don't want the expensive HD stuff. 

The remote "media extender" boxes would be great as well.


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## thwart (Jul 26, 2004)

kb7sei said:


> What I would like to see:
> 
> S2DT platform/features
> CableCard support (dual and/or multistream ala S3)
> ...


I can't agree with you more. I can afford to pay $799 for a Series 3, but I'm not willing to. I would definitely be interested in a Series 2 with the specs that you mentioned above.


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