# Comcast M-Card Fee now more than an HD box!!!!



## drugrep (Mar 16, 2002)

Just got my latest bill from Comcast.

I have 3 HD boxes and 1 M-Card.

I'm getting charged for 2 of the boxes at $9.95 each and the M-Card fee is $11.10! Unbelievable!


----------



## NJguy (Sep 11, 2013)

drugrep said:


> Just got my latest bill from Comcast.
> 
> I have 3 HD boxes and 1 M-Card.
> 
> I'm getting charged for 2 of the boxes at $9.95 each and the M-Card fee is $11.10! Unbelievable!


What a rip off. That can't be. How can they charge more for the card than a box.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Check- did you have an offsetting credit? Comcast has billing system issues that make cablecard billing uneven and hard to follow at best.


----------



## drugrep (Mar 16, 2002)

jrtroo said:


> Check- did you have an offsetting credit? Comcast has billing system issues that make cablecard billing uneven and hard to follow at best.


I'm not sure, I just see the billing dates for the M-Card are the same as the service, 10/17 - 11/16.


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

Wow, where are you located? And what plan are you in?

I'm Comcast New England (in NH). I have Triple Play which gives me their SUPER STELLAR DVR for FREE! 

I then have a Cablecard for my Roamio Plus and they list it as this:



> Digital Additional 10/15 - 11/14 --- *$7.45*
> Outlet Service Charge (with Cablecard)
> Includes Customer-owned Video Equipment
> Credit.


Not surprising though that Comcast would continue to rip people off.

-Kevin


----------



## drugrep (Mar 16, 2002)

kbmb said:


> Wow, where are you located? And what plan are you in?
> 
> I'm Comcast New England (in NH). I have Triple Play which gives me their SUPER STELLAR DVR for FREE!
> 
> ...


I'm in Chicago suburbs.

TV is Digital preferred with 1 premium $100.90
Sports package - $9.95
2 additional boxes $19.90
Cable Card $11.10
Streampix $4.99
HD Technology Fee $9.95
Total TV is 156.79 then add:
Performance Internet Service Modem Owned $51.95


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

drugrep said:


> I'm in Chicago suburbs.
> 
> TV is Digital preferred with 1 premium $100.90
> Sports package - $9.95
> ...


I love the HD Technology Fee!!! Man I hate cable companies! They are like that guy in the Lorax that charges for air.

Have you ever looked at getting into a bundle to see what that price is? I know that's why I signed up for Triple Play even though I don't use the phone (don't even have a phone hooked up). It's still cheaper than putting everything together.

That still likely won't reduce the cablecard fee.....and that's crazy they charge that much!

-Kevin


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Here we get the stupid HD technology fee, with a piddly offsetting credit for user-owned equipment.


----------



## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

Ummmm ... isn't the first CableCARD free with Comcast? Or am I living in some past reality?


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

rocko said:


> Ummmm ... isn't the first CableCARD free with Comcast? Or am I living in some past reality?


It's only free when you don't have any other boxes on your account. My parents only have 2 Tivos.....each with an M-card. The first is free, the second is not. For me....they consider the Comcast box the first box and the cablecard the additional outlet.

They also like to label it Additional Outlet, like they somehow need to provide some extra services to get the cable signal to the outlet which is already wired.

-Kevin


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

I checked my account online the other day and saw that the HD Tech Fee was there again at $10... even though I had not seen it on my bill lately.

Honestly Comcast are complete and utter idiots with this billing mess they've created. I imagine at some point it will result in some kind of class action lawsuit due to them mis-leading customers (advertising package prices and then tacking on HD tech fee for example).


----------



## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

kbmb said:


> It's only free when you don't have any other boxes on your account. My parents only have 2 Tivos.....each with an M-card. The first is free, the second is not. For me....they consider the Comcast box the first box and the cablecard the additional outlet.
> 
> They also like to label it Additional Outlet, like they somehow need to provide some extra services to get the cable signal to the outlet which is already wired.
> 
> -Kevin


Hmmm - I'll need to look into that. Last summer I gave one of my TiVos to my Mom who already had a STB. Picked up a CableCARD from the local Comcast office - installed and activated - no problem. I'm pretty sure that there was no extra charge.

At the time she had a strictly SD channel lineup, so perhaps the lack of HD makes a difference? I'll ask her for a copy of the bill to confirm.


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

rocko said:


> Hmmm - I'll need to look into that. Last summer I gave one of my TiVos to my Mom who already had a STB. Picked up a CableCARD from the local Comcast office - installed and activated - no problem. I'm pretty sure that there was no extra charge.
> 
> At the time she had a strictly SD channel lineup, so perhaps the lack of HD makes a difference? I'll ask her for a copy of the bill to confirm.


Yeah, take a look. I was always told that if you have a DVR on the account then a cablecard is a second outlet (since technically the Comcast DVR has a cablecard....it's just built in).

-Kevin


----------



## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

kbmb said:


> Yeah, take a look. I was always told that if you have a DVR on the account then a cablecard is a second outlet (since technically the Comcast DVR has a cablecard....it's just built in).
> 
> -Kevin


No - she has a dumb STB, not a DVR. Perhaps that's the difference.


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

rocko said:


> No - she has a dumb STB, not a DVR. Perhaps that's the difference.


That's probably it.

Would be worth checking anyway.....Comcast likes to add on charges little by little without telling you. I recently found out they were charging me for those "free" digital boxes (the tiny ones that allow you to get SD). I got a few back when they made the switch to digital. Well, they have been sitting in the closet for months, only recently did I realize they started charging me for them! And of course the charge started when my bill increased last time (the standard bi-annual cable increase), sneaky!

-Kevin


----------



## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

kbmb said:


> That's probably it.
> 
> Would be worth checking anyway.....Comcast likes to add on charges little by little without telling you. I recently found out they were charging me for those "free" digital boxes (the tiny ones that allow you to get SD). I got a few back when they made the switch to digital. Well, they have been sitting in the closet for months, only recently did I realize they started charging me for them! And of course the charge started when my bill increased last time (the standard bi-annual cable increase), sneaky!
> 
> -Kevin


<Dice> I hear ya! </Dice>

I'll check - trust me - my Mom cancels her service after Labor Day to save money (Shore house) so if there was something hinkey with the bill I'd hear about it


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

kbmb said:


> It's only free when you don't have any other boxes on your account. My parents only have 2 Tivos.....each with an M-card. The first is free, the second is not. For me....they consider the Comcast box the first box and the cablecard the additional outlet.
> 
> They also like to label it Additional Outlet, like they somehow need to provide some extra services to get the cable signal to the outlet which is already wired.
> 
> -Kevin


The Additional Outlet fee is different from the cable card fee. The AO fee applies to any box/card beyond the first. It doesn't matter what equipment you have (cable card, STB, or DVR). There are separate fees for the card and at least where I am, the first card is free. Additional cards are $1.50.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Every Comcast franchise is just a shade different in their billing practices. It sounds like the original poster should complain, because the cablecard price is including the additional outlet fee (which some franchises do), but he's also getting charged an additional outlet. FCC regulations prohibit charging that much for just the cablecard itself, or at least they used to.

My Comcast bill is very cablecard friendly, but that's not the norm. Still, the cable franchises can't discriminate against outside devices.


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

CrispyCritter said:


> Every Comcast franchise is just a shade different in their billing practices.


Here in Maryland I was told the first cable card is free, additional cable cards are $7.50 each. Seems hard to understand, but I believe you're right that Comcast pricing can vary by region.

We're a bit less than a month in as TiVo and cable card users, so I haven't received an adjusted bill from Comcast yet.


----------



## uw69 (Jan 25, 2001)

I'm impressed many folks can understand the Comcast bill, the only bill more confusing to me was my old AT&T cell phone bill!


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

DeltaOne said:


> Here in Maryland I was told the first cable card is free, additional cable cards are $7.50 each. Seems hard to understand, but I believe you're right that Comcast pricing can vary by region.
> 
> We're a bit less than a month in as TiVo and cable card users, so I haven't received an adjusted bill from Comcast yet.


Yes, I'm less than 20 miles away from you, but I've had cable cards for 7 years and have 5 of them now, and have never been charged anything for them.


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

uw69 said:


> I'm impressed many folks can understand the Comcast bill, the only bill more confusing to me was my old AT&T cell phone bill!


The current Comcast bills are actually pretty easy to read. At least the one we get in this region is.


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

CrispyCritter said:


> Yes, I'm less than 20 miles away from you, but I've had cable cards for 7 years and have 5 of them now, and have never been charged anything for them.


Before returning my Comcast set top boxes I logged in to their web site and found a place where it lists the equipment you have. There were two or three items there I didn't have -- so I was expecting big problems. I suspect they were old model DVRs we had returned for new models.

The list must have been out of date. The last thing I had the customer service rep do was verify that my account didn't list any set top boxes or remotes. And that the only Comcast equipment I had was two CableCards. So I'm hopeful my next bill will be correct.


----------



## brianric (Aug 29, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Yes, I'm less than 20 miles away from you, but I've had cable cards for 7 years and have 5 of them now, and have never been charged anything for them.


Here is my setup from Comcast Philly.

Limited Basic Only
09/23 10/22 $1.00
Digital Converter
($0.60 Less $0.10 BPU credit until 12/31/13)
[email protected] $0.50 each
-
TiVoCableCard
09/23 10/22 $0.00
[email protected] $0.00 each
-
Customer-Owned Equipment
09/23 10/22 -$5.00
[email protected] -$2.50 each
-$4.00

I have a Premiere XL and a Roamio Pro.


----------



## isilv (Sep 27, 2013)

drugrep said:


> I'm in Chicago suburbs.


I'm also in Chicago suburbs and here is how Comcast charges me:
XFINITY Bundled Services
Preferred Xf Double Play$137.85
Service Discount($57.86)
Additional XFINITY TV Services
Cablecard$0.00
Additional XFINITY Internet Services
Blast$10.00
Service Discount($10.00)
Other Charges & Credits
Customer Owned Equipment - Adjustment($2.50)
Taxes, Surcharges & Fees
TV
Franchise Fee$1.57
FCC Fee $0.08
Total $79.14 

I have the preferred package with blast(50Mbps) internet, with my own equipment.


----------



## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

Generally, Comcast charges you about $9.95 for each outlet after the first one. They will give you a set top box OR a cable card for no charge to use on that outlet. If it is a cable card, you get a $2.50 rebate for using your own set top box. If the TiVo takes two cable cards, they charge about $1.15 for the second card.

So if you are getting the cable card for free and no charge for the outlet, consider yourself lucky and hope they don't audit your account.


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

The answer to all this is just get one main server TiVo and then a bunch of minis, using only one cablecard.


----------



## swerver (May 18, 2012)

kbmb said:


> That's probably it.
> 
> Would be worth checking anyway.....Comcast likes to add on charges little by little without telling you. I recently found out they were charging me for those "free" digital boxes (the tiny ones that allow you to get SD). I got a few back when they made the switch to digital. Well, they have been sitting in the closet for months, only recently did I realize they started charging me for them! And of course the charge started when my bill increased last time (the standard bi-annual cable increase), sneaky!
> 
> -Kevin


I had the same problem. Those boxes were given out free, then years later they start charging for them. It sounds made up and laughable that a company would actually do that, but here we are. I had only used them for a short while and that was years ago. I had them send me a box to ship them back in. I'm glad I could find them, otherwise they wanted $40 each to take the monthly $2 each off my bill. Then, after sending them back, and waiting several weeks, they were STILL ON MY BILL! It sounds ridiculous, but I actually had to call back and instruct them to stop charging me for equipment that was never supposed to have a charge in the first place, and that I didn't even have anymore!


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

My Comcast bill arrived. Seems to be correct, but I have two questions.

There's a whole page of "partial month" charges because I returned 2 DVRs and 2 DTAs. And picked up two CableCards. I guess this part is correct...it's pretty hard to follow.

Aside from the normal charges for channel packages and Internet, I see:

customer owned equipment, 2 @ 2.50 each; -$5.00 *(this is a credit)*
additional outlet service $9.95
HD technology fee $9.95
digital adapter service $1.99
CableCard 1st card in device $0.00

_I've read about the credit for customer owned equipment but don't understand why they do that.

1) Is the additional outlet service charge because they know I have two TiVo's?

2) And what is the digital adapter service charge for?_


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Looks correct except for the bogus HD tech fee, which some areas get hit for cards and some don't (we don't have it for cards only in the ATL). I would ask them to take it off since you don't have any of their HD boxes, but don't be surprised if they refuse. The A/O fee is for your second card and you're getting credits for both of them so it looks correct.

The digital adapter service is for a DTA you still have left on the account - if you don't have one left, call them and tell them to take it off.

I have 2 cards and returned the last DTA earlier this year, so my bill shows $5 in credits and a $9.95 A/O fee for second card, but no HD tech fee.


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

slowbiscuit said:


> Looks correct except for the bogus HD tech fee, which some areas get hit for cards and some don't (we don't have it for cards only in the ATL). I would ask them to take it off since you don't have any of their HD boxes, but don't be surprised if they refuse. The A/O fee is for your second card and you're getting credits for both of them so it looks correct.
> 
> The digital adapter service is for a DTA you still have left on the account - if you don't have one left, call them and tell them to take it off.
> 
> I have 2 cards and returned the last DTA earlier this year, so my bill shows $5 in credits and a $9.95 A/O fee for second card, but no HD tech fee.


Yeah, the "HD technology fee" is frustrating.

As for the DTA charge -- I now remember I did keep one of their small DTA boxes as a backup. I'll have to decide if it's worth $1.99 month -- if not I'll just return it.

Thanks for the info.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Why would you need a DTA as a backup? Backup for what?


----------



## KevinG (Sep 3, 2003)

Is there some secret phrase that you have to tell comcast to get them to treat a series 3 tivo as a SINGLE additional outlet that requires 2 cable cards?

I've got two series 3 tivos, so I'm paying $40 in additional outlet fees (though that includes the cable cards). I'm also credited back $2.50 for each card. So it ends up being $30 (or $15 per series 3 tivo).


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

jrtroo said:


> Why would you need a DTA as a backup? Backup for what?


I guess I was thinking that if my Roamio or one of my two Minis failed I could use the DTA until I replaced the failed unit. I'm a new TiVo owner -- maybe I'll feel differently once I have more experience and feel the hardware is long-term trustworthy.

I guess I should see how many channels I get by just connecting the coax cable right to my TV -- even if it's just the basic channels that would be good enough.

It seems to me, as an IT guy, that TiVo is much like Apple -- they make products that people want to buy -- and will pay a premium for. Comcast is much like Microsoft...products you use because you have to -- your boss puts a Windows box on your desktop.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

You will probably get zero channels at the tv without a box. Comcast normally provided the DTA for 24-36 months free after going 100% digital, then started to charge.

Tivos are reliable and rarely have issues (now that hard drives are easily replaced, things are better than ever), so I'm not sure why you would look to pay a $2/month insurance policy. If you were to ever need one, then just get pick it up then and save a few bucks. But, that is clearly your prerogative.


----------



## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> Looks correct except for the bogus HD tech fee, which some areas get hit for cards and some don't (we don't have it for cards only in the ATL). I would ask them to take it off since you don't have any of their HD boxes, but don't be surprised if they refuse.


Cable companies have a creative way of looking at charges. The HD technology fee is their way of charging you extra for delivering whole TV channels. It would be like when you order a pizza and complain that there are a couple of slices missing, the pizza delivery guy could say, "Sorry, but you didn't pay our Complete Pizza fee".


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

jrtroo said:


> You will probably get zero channels at the tv without a box. Comcast normally provided the DTA for 24-36 months free after going 100% digital, then started to charge.
> 
> Tivos are reliable and rarely have issues (now that hard drives are easily replaced, things are better than ever), so I'm not sure why you would look to pay a $2/month insurance policy. If you were to ever need one, then just get pick it up then and save a few bucks. But, that is clearly your prerogative.


I suspected all the channels were encrypted.

Yeah, you're right. I'm sure I'll return the DTA.


----------



## Big Boy Laroux (Oct 10, 2006)

Yep, I recently went through the HD Technology Fee discussion with comcast. Their response was that even though I don't use one of their boxes, I still receive their HD channels via CableCard, so have to pay the HD Technology fee. 

Stupid charge.


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

I was wondering about the credit for customer owned equipment and found this on Comcast's web site:

_Comcast provides a credit to customers who have an activated CableCARD installed in a customer-owned device (e.g., TiVo or CableCARD-equipped television) or customers that own a qualifying converter (See Customer Owned Equipment Policy) if the customer subscribes to a Comcast video service that includes equipment as a part of the service. Customers who qualify will receive a monthly credit of $2.50 for each qualifying activated CableCard device or converter._

I'm curious about the "includes equipment" phrase. Right now I still have one DTA and am being charged $1.99/month. All my other equipment is TiVo. If I return the DTA, to save $1.99/month, will I lose my $5.00/month credit (for two CableCards) since I don't have any Comcast equipment?


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

No, the cablecard is a credit due to the outlet charge covering that fee. It will continue.


----------



## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

The only think consistent about Comcast billing is its inconsistency. 

They often try to add the HD technology fee. Sometimes you can get them to take it off and sometimes you can't. The M-Card charges are all over the board.


----------



## isilv (Sep 27, 2013)

DeltaOne said:


> I'm curious about the "includes equipment" phrase. Right now I still have one DTA and am being charged $1.99/month. All my other equipment is TiVo. If I return the DTA, to save $1.99/month, will I lose my $5.00/month credit (for two CableCards) since I don't have any Comcast equipment?


Correct me if I'm wrong but it says "if you subscribe to a Comcast video service that includes equipment as part of a service" than they have to pay you for having your own equipment. It may be worded like that so basic cable subscribers don't get a credit.


----------



## isilv (Sep 27, 2013)

Big Boy Laroux said:


> Yep, I recently went through the HD Technology Fee discussion with comcast. Their response was that even though I don't use one of their boxes, I still receive their HD channels via CableCard, so have to pay the HD Technology fee.
> 
> Stupid charge.


Comcast doesn't charge me an HD tech fee, even when I had two TiVo's in my account. I would be pissed if they started charging me as well.


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

isilv said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but it says "if you subscribe to a Comcast video service that includes equipment as part of a service" than they have to pay you for having your own equipment. It may be worded like that so basic cable subscribers don't get a credit.


We have evidence some regions charge the HD technology fee and some don't, so I don't know what'll happen when I return my last piece of Comcast equipment (a DTA).

I reread the paragraph about customer owned equipment, perhaps this is pertinent: _Comcast provides a credit to customers who have an activated CableCARD installed in a customer-owned device (e.g., TiVo or CableCARD-equipped television) or...
_
Perhaps the "or" is important. Customers that have an activated CableCard device OR own a qualifying converter get the credit for customer owned equipment.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Returning the DTA will have nothing to do with the HD tech fee, because your DTA is not an HD box. It's something you have to fight with them as a separate issue unfortunately, and I would escalate to corporate if they refuse to take it off. But again, don't be surprised if they refuse. Your credits also won't change with DTA return.

Comcast card billing is a joke and always has been, but multiple FCC complaints have been filed with little change other than to (mostly) enforce the BS additional outlet fee for extra cards instead of a simple rental charge as every other cableCo does.


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

slowbiscuit said:


> Returning the DTA will have nothing to do with the HD tech fee, because your DTA is not an HD box. It's something you have to fight with them as a separate issue unfortunately, and I would escalate to corporate if they refuse to take it off. But again, don't be surprised if they refuse. Your credits also won't change with DTA return.
> 
> Comcast card billing is a joke and always has been, but multiple FCC complaints have been filed with little change other than to (mostly) enforce the BS additional outlet fee for extra cards instead of a simple rental charge as every other cableCo does.


I wasn't clear -- I wasn't saying that returning the DTA would affect the HD tech fee. I had been thinking that returning the DTA would stop the customer owned equipment credit -- but poster's here say that credit will continue -- and finding the "or" in the Comcast blurb also makes me think the credit will continue.

I hear ya on Comcast billing. I'll have to give them a bit of credit though -- other than the incomprehensible section on partial charges and credits (due to returning their equipment and getting two cable cards) the main section on charges was correct and easy to read. Even though the HD tech fee is maddening. ;-)


----------



## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

I remember when I had comcast in PA and picked up cablecards, I just told them I didn't want HD service and that I didn't care (played apathetic) and when I would plug in the cablecards and they'd activate my programming, I always just got the HD equivalents of the channels I was paying for, and even some that I wasn't! It didn't appear to me that they even had a way of turning off the HD channel equivalents even if they wanted to. It sounds like a bogus charge to take more money from you, if you ask me!


----------



## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

KevinG said:


> Is there some secret phrase that you have to tell comcast to get them to treat a series 3 tivo as a SINGLE additional outlet that requires 2 cable cards?


Look at the price list included in some billing statements:
CableCARD (second card in same device): $1.50

http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-support/cable-tv/purchasing-a-cablecard


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

HarperVision said:


> I remember when I had comcast in PA and picked up cablecards, I just told them I didn't want HD service and that I didn't care (played apathetic) and when I would plug in the cablecards and they'd activate my programming, I always just got the HD equivalents of the channels I was paying for, and even some that I wasn't! It didn't appear to me that they even had a way of turning off the HD channel equivalents even if they wanted to. It sounds like a bogus charge to take more money from you, if you ask me!


That is correct for most card-only Comcast customers, and is the reason why folks should vigorously pursue removal of the BS tech fee if they don't have their boxes. I have seen a few folks in some areas (I think Chicago is one) post that HD channels would not work with cards without the fee however.


----------



## KevinG (Sep 3, 2003)

c3 said:


> Look at the price list included in some billing statements:
> CableCARD (second card in same device): $1.50
> 
> http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-support/cable-tv/purchasing-a-cablecard


Yes, but that doesn't really say anything about the additional outlet fee ($9.95).

What I want to know is should my series 3 tivo account for 2 additional outlet fees? In my case, I'm not being charges at all (they are not itemized) for my 4 cable cards (in 2 series 3s). But I am being charged for 4 additional outlets. Should I be able to get that down to two additional outlets (one per series 3), which an extra $1.50 for each one as a "second card in same device?"


----------



## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

KevinG said:


> Should I be able to get that down to two additional outlets (one per series 3), which an extra $1.50 for each one as a "second card in same device?"


That's how it's supposed to work. If each CableCard is treated as a separate outlet no matter what, then there is no need for this "second card in same device" fee.


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Ugh. Don't do what I did. Due to this thread I audited my bill and discovered that Comcast was charging me $1.50 for a second cable card I returned months ago. 5 minutes on chat with Comcast to remove that charge. 8 hours and counting trying to fix them messing up my cablecard. Finally it's mostly working again but I lost On Demand. Comcast sucks.


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

jmpage2 said:


> Ugh. Don't do what I did. Due to this thread I audited my bill and discovered that Comcast was charging me $1.50 for a second cable card I returned months ago. 5 minutes on chat with Comcast to remove that charge. 8 hours and counting trying to fix them messing up my cablecard. Finally it's mostly working again but I lost On Demand. Comcast sucks.


I think a similar thing happened to me. Had received two CableCards to activate a 2nd Roamio Plus (because I was worried one or both of the CableCards would be defective). Sure enough, the first CableCard I inserted did not work. Second one worked.

So I returned the defective card. A few hours later one of our two TiVo's stopped working and I had to call and have its card re-activated. Was it a coincidence? Probably not...

It didn't take 8 hours though -- maybe you called the regular Comcast number and not the CableCard number?


----------



## KevinG (Sep 3, 2003)

c3 said:


> That's how it's supposed to work. If each CableCard is treated as a separate outlet no matter what, then there is no need for this "second card in same device" fee.


Agreed. So what do I say to comcast to get them to change this?

I think, on average, I spend 2 hours per month on the phone with comcast. Seriously.


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

DeltaOne said:


> I think a similar thing happened to me. Had received two CableCards to activate a 2nd Roamio Plus (because I was worried one or both of the CableCards would be defective). Sure enough, the first CableCard I inserted did not work. Second one worked.
> 
> So I returned the defective card. A few hours later one of our two TiVo's stopped working and I had to call and have its card re-activated. Was it a coincidence? Probably not...
> 
> It didn't take 8 hours though -- maybe you called the regular Comcast number and not the CableCard number?


I talked to both regular tech support and the cable-card special line. The cable-card folks re-verified all the device serial numbers and said they re-sent the pairing signal, which seemed to clean up the signal error (V53 error) I was seeing on some channels, but it did not clear up the On Demand being broken.

I called them back and asked them if the TiVo Premiere option was still selected on my account and they confirmed yes it is.

Their latest suggestion is if it is still not working for me to have a truck rolled or go to a Comcast location and swap the m-card out. The m-card that was working completely fine before they screwed with it.


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> Their latest suggestion is if it is still not working for me to have a truck rolled or go to a Comcast location and swap the m-card out. The m-card that was working completely fine before they screwed with it.


Oh yeah a truck roll....that'll help.  Instead of having a clueless person on the phone, now you'll have one in your living room, costing you $30 bucks for the visit. Maybe you can have him over for dinner and make a night of it!

-Kevin


----------



## prisk (Nov 19, 2006)

In my area (Chicago) the first device is free (you get a box or CC free). Then they charge for each additional device. Where they got confused is that my first device was a TiVo S3, which has 2 cards. The first was free, the second $1.15. What they did instead was give the first box for free, then charge $9.95 for both CC's in the Tivo S3. It was a net of about $8, but on principle it sucked. They rearranged the fee structure to maximize profit. When I called them on this they said, basically, that the 1st Cc free, 2nd at a discount, doesn't apply if you have other devices. Kind of like saying, "Buy a big mac, second free. Unless you get fries, then the fries are free and the Big Mac is full price." They made it up as they went along. Or it was an internal policy, but conflicted with their printed policy on their web site. Here is the link: http://customer.comcast.com/help-and...ut-cablecards/ and the actual text:

How much will I be charged to use a CableCARD?
The first CableCARD in a retail device (e.g., TiVo devices or CableCARD-equipped televisions) is provided at no additional charge to Comcast customers. If a second CableCARD is needed for the same device (e.g., TiVo Series 3 boxes), there is a nominal fee for the additional card. Check your local market pricing for this information. Again, this only applies to a second CableCARD in the same device.

Interestingly, they charged an HD Technology fee ($16.95) only if you had an HD box. I had 2 SD boxes and 2 HD TiVos with cablecards, but they didn't charge a HD fee, since the CC's aren't by definition "HD equipment." Once I go to a Roamio plus 3 Mini's the "Additional Outlet Fees" all disappear, since all they will see is a single TiVo with one CC. A single outlet, as far as they are concerned, and the first one is free.


----------



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

kbmb said:


> Oh yeah a truck roll....that'll help.  Instead of having a clueless person on the phone, now you'll have one in your living room, costing you $30 bucks for the visit. Maybe you can have him over for dinner and make a night of it!
> 
> -Kevin


Well I just checked it this AM and magically it is now working again. Probably something on their end took a really long time to propagate down to the card.

God what a head-ache. Thankfully I didn't have to replace the card or deal with a technician who *****es incessantly about customers with TiVo boxes, since that's usually how my truck rolls go.


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> Well I just checked it this AM and magically it is now working again. Probably something on their end took a really long time to propagate down to the card.
> 
> God what a head-ache. Thankfully I didn't have to replace the card or deal with a technician who *****es incessantly about customers with TiVo boxes, since that's usually how my truck rolls go.


8 years ago when they required a truck roll to get a Cablecard, my installer took one look at my TivoHD and said "here, you put it in"!

Needless to say I was glad to, and made sure to call afterwards to get the service fee removed from my account.

-Kevin


----------



## rhettf (Apr 5, 2012)

In the Bay area its actually quite reasonable:

No HD Fee 
First cable Card Free
Additional cards 1.50 a month
Customer owned Equipment -$2.50 credit

My Bill:

Tenant Premier Package 73.00
Standard Cable 70.49
COE Adjustment -2.50
TV: 140.99
Taxes: 22.51

*Total: 163.50*

Its still ridiculous but when I used a motorola box I was paying 190 a month.


----------



## Tanquen (Jun 1, 2002)

rhettf said:


> In the Bay area its actually quite reasonable:
> 
> No HD Fee
> First cable Card Free
> ...


I'll never say $163.50 a month is reasonable for commercial TV. Let alone quite. 

This is not quite right or it wasn't. I'm in the North Bay and earlier this year I added a new Premier and it was a nightmare. Things may have changed but&#8230;

You get one set top box included with your Comcast account. If you don't want it or need it you can get the first cable card free as you are already paying for it.

The second card is at $1.50 only if it is used in the same device. I was able to add two cards this way as they thought it was for one TiVo when I first set them up a few years back.

More cards for more devices are at a higher rate. The FCC rules are not that hard to follow. They even suggest a price of around $4 or so but Comcast chooses to break them.

They are required to list the price of a cable card. They do not. The only mention of this was the $1.50 for the second card IN THE SAME DEVICE. They did not show what they charge for just another cable card.

They are not allowed to up sell or otherwise require you to buy anything else or charge for installation or activation. But Comcast forces you to pay for a cable box bundle including an outlet charge and they then give you a dollar or two back for providing your own equipment. This is again breaks the FCC rules. What are you giving me a $2.50 credit for if you are not forcing me to buy something other than the card?

You can look them up and file a complaint on the FCC website. I got a call from some upset Comcast guy sometime later and he just kept telling me that they were not breaking any rules and when I read him the rules and he just would not admit to it. But they did cut my bill in half for six months.

Also, I was able to remove the HD fee and did not lose any HD channels. The down side is that when I had an issue with two of the channels not coming in randomly they kept trying to tell me that I needed that on my account and that was why the two channels would randomly go out for hours at a time.


----------



## prisk (Nov 19, 2006)

Tanquen said:


> Ill never say $163.50 a month is reasonable for commercial TV. Let alone quite.
> 
> This is not quite right or it wasnt. Im in the North Bay and earlier this year I added a new Premier and it was a nightmare. Things may have changed but
> 
> ...


Complaining works. Comcast in Chicago did something similar to me and despite 18 months of arguing with them they refused to do anything about it. So I filed a complaint with the Illinois Attorney General's office, included copies of my bill and printouts of Comcats's own website, and 2 weeks later I get a call from a very apologetic Comcast rep from their headquarters in Philadelphia. She fixed the bill and gave me a credit for 18 months of overbillings, plus a little extra as an apology.


----------



## rhettf (Apr 5, 2012)

Tanquen said:


> Ill never say $163.50 a month is reasonable for commercial TV. Let alone quite.
> 
> This is not quite right or it wasnt. Im in the North Bay and earlier this year I added a new Premier and it was a nightmare. Things may have changed but
> 
> ...


$163 a month is not reasonable for the complete TV package at all. I meant the fact I pay nothing extra for my cable card or HD is reasonable compared to other markets.

When I got additional cards they never asked what device it's for and only charged me $1.50 a month for each card.

I save(d) $324 dollars a year by switching to TiVo.

My TiVo Roamio Pro with its expanded storage (I had for my original premiere) allows me to feel like I am actually getting to take full advantage of my TV package. I can recorded close to 700 hours and can keep roughly 29-40 complete season of TV Shows.

Last night I added a couple shows I would of never recorded before because of the 700 hours of storage and six tuners. Knife Fight, Brew Dogs, House Hunters - my girlfriend loves that show. Some basic shows I can put on when I don't want to focus on a storyline.


----------



## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Yes, I was irked by the new $9.95/mo "HD Technology fee", but the one that really chapped me was when my previously free digital tuning adapter (for my old Series 2 Tivo) stopped being free, it went to $1.95/mo but then was COUNTED AS MY FREE "FIRST" DEVICE. That means that the first CableCard in my Series 3 went from being my free "first" device to being a $9.95/mo card (less $2.5/mo for being in a customer-owned device). Comcast insists the cheapest device is *always* the first "free" device.

So dropping the digital tuning adapter would save me $7.45/mo. Dropping the DTA plus the Series 3 and its 2 CableCards would save me $14.90 would save me $22.35/mo. That's a lot of money for what was intended to be "cheap" devices to ensure I'm getting the channels I pay for.

Clearly, consumers won the battle on "outlet fees" in the analog age because the cable monopolies realized they'd win the war as soon as they moved to digital! All the worst "features" have returned, completely legally.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I think you should file an FCC complaint, since the prices are supposed to be "reasonable".


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Been there, done that, didn't get any changes from Comcast (did get a nice call and followup letter to me and the FCC afterwards though). They insist that charging A/O fees for cards instead of a nominal rental fee (as the FCC card orders require) is perfectly OK, and the FCC doesn't care.


----------



## Tanquen (Jun 1, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Been there, done that, didn't get any changes from Comcast (did get a nice call and followup letter to me and the FCC afterwards though). They insist that charging A/O fees for cards instead of a nominal rental fee (as the FCC card orders require) is perfectly OK, and the FCC doesn't care.


If enough people file with the FCC they will care but not enough people do so Comca$t do what it likes.

It's not right or fare for ComCa$t to charge what it does for the service it provides but there is not enough competition to make them. It's cheaper for them to give the one in 100+ folks that call in a price break than to do right by all its customers.

Charging A/O fees is illegal, end of story. They have been in trouble for this before and they just call it something else. They did this same thing with physical cable to the house. They wanted money for each TV in the house. This was illegal and they were forced to comply. Then they moved it out the poll or their box and run multiple cables to the house and again try to charge a fee to turn them on and so on. This again is illegal but they get away with it. Same in the digital realm, charging for a nonexistent digital port for each TV is illegal but they get away with it.

That is why the FCC is involved and that was the deal. They can encrypt their signal but they cannot charge you decrypt it on each device you own.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Tanquen said:


> Charging A/O fees is illegal, end of story.


Do you have a regulation citation for this? I've been through the relevant FCC regulations a couple of times years ago, and I could never find language that forbid this. There is (or was) language that required a small reasonable fee for cablecards - I think the OP has a good case for fee reduction in his case - but I never found anything that directly addressed A/O fees, other than the general not charging more for outside equipment than their own, which they don't violate in general.


----------



## Tanquen (Jun 1, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Do you have a regulation citation for this? I've been through the relevant FCC regulations a couple of times years ago, and I could never find language that forbid this. There is (or was) language that required a small reasonable fee for cablecards - I think the OP has a good case for fee reduction in his case - but I never found anything that directly addressed A/O fees, other than the general not charging more for outside equipment than their own, which they don't violate in general.


"Use your own set-top box without extra charge. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5)(C). Your cable operator may charge you to lease a CableCARD or tuning adapter, but may not charge you an additional service fee for using your own digital-cable-ready television or set-top box."


----------



## jadziedzic (Apr 20, 2009)

Yep, I filed an FCC complaint a while back, and had a Comcast rep contact me to tell me I was paying an additional fee for "digital services" at the outlet which was perfectly legal in their interpretation. I asked how that applied to my CableCARD-equipped TV, since the only "service" I was getting were TV channels, and that resulted in a bit of dead air on the other end. Repeating the "use your own set-top box without extra charge" bit didn't make a difference to the Comcast rep.

Maybe it's time to contact the local Congress-critter? Not that any of them actually work for us ...


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Tanquen said:


> "Use your own set-top box without extra charge. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5)(C). Your cable operator may charge you to lease a CableCARD or tuning adapter, but may not charge you an additional service fee for using your own digital-cable-ready television or set-top box."


Thanks, but I don't see that text in the actual regulations. The closest I see is



> No service fee shall be imposed on a subscriber for support of a subscriber-provided device that is not assessed on subscriber use of an operator-provided device.


As long as they charge the A/O fee for their own devices, either directly or indirectly, they can charge it for TiVo. 
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/76.1205
or 
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title47-vol4/pdf/CFR-2011-title47-vol4-sec76-1205.pdf

There's a proposed update for 1205, but that doesn't change any of the text here.


----------



## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Tanquen said:


> "Use your own set-top box without extra charge. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5)(C). Your cable operator may charge you to lease a CableCARD or tuning adapter, but may not charge you an additional service fee for using your own digital-cable-ready television or set-top box."


Compared to what you would pay for a STB, you are NOT paying additional fee for a CableCard. You actually get a $2.50 credit instead.


----------



## Tanquen (Jun 1, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Thanks, but I don't see that text in the actual regulations. The closest I see is
> 
> As long as they charge the A/O fee for their own devices, either directly or indirectly, they can charge it for TiVo.
> http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/76.1205
> ...


Don't know what to tell you. I's from the FCC site and it gives the rule number. ??? They are not to be charging a fee.


----------



## Tanquen (Jun 1, 2002)

c3 said:


> Compared to what you would pay for a STB, you are NOT paying additional fee for a CableCard. You actually get a $2.50 credit instead.


So the cable box is only worth $2.50? Anyway, it says they cant do that. It says they have to list the price to rent the card but they dont. It says they cant charge you for extra stuff but they do. You want to tell yourself that they are good people following the rules ok, but they are not.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Tanquen said:


> Don't know what to tell you. I's from the FCC site and it gives the rule number. ??? They are not to be charging a fee.


Where on the FCC site is it? It's not where you said it is - I gave you those regulations. I've read the interim explanations/instructions for 1205 and it's not there either. How do you know it's on the FCC site?

And note that strictly speaking, your statement may allow A/O charges. It might mean they can't charge an additional service charge above what they do on their own equipment, but they can charge the same service charge as they do on their own equipment. What it really means all depends on the surrounding context of your statement; we need to see that context.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Tanquen said:


> It says they have to list the price to rent the card but they don't.


This was another beef I had in the complaint - Comcast does not break down the rental price of a card on their price sheets as required by the orders. The best you get is the '$1.50 fee for extra card in same device' line which was used for the old Tivo S3s (and which doesn't apply to additional Tivos in your house), but that's it.


----------



## Tanquen (Jun 1, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Where on the FCC site is it? It's not where you said it is - I gave you those regulations. I've read the interim explanations/instructions for 1205 and it's not there either. How do you know it's on the FCC site?
> 
> And note that strictly speaking, your statement may allow A/O charges. It might mean they can't charge an additional service charge above what they do on their own equipment, but they can charge the same service charge as they do on their own equipment. What it really means all depends on the surrounding context of your statement; we need to see that context.


Dude, are you just messing with me, work for Comcast? I put quote marks around it. I'm not just making stuff up. Not where I said it is? It's a copy and paste from the FCC site. I said it was on the FCC site. I went to the site and searched for, I think&#8230; wait for it&#8230; "cable cards".

Federal Communications Commission
The FCC
Home / Guides / CableCARD: Know Your Rights

"And note that strictly speaking, your statement may allow A/O charges." No, I disagree. "without extra charge" and "may not charge you an additional service fee"

This is not an extra remote or DRV or a set top tuner box. Its access to the content you already paid for.

They wanted to encrypt their signal and that is fine but the deal was they had to offer a way for people to buy a second or third TV and watch what they had paid for without more fees. They agreed knowing most would want a DVR or would not want to buy a new TV.

I don't really care at this point, these kind of companies just do whatever they think the market will bear and if they charge $1200 a year for commercial filled TV and people pay it what can you say? Then on top of it they have to nickel and dime with intentionally confusing BS. This is theft. There should be a simple flat rate for a few tiers or groups of channels and that is it but that is not how they make money.

The FCC had to tell them to provide cards when asked and not charge a bunch of money for instilling or activating and not forever delay and so on and so on. They don't want people to use their own equipment. They've done what they can to discourage it.

The port charge is just to discourage people from using their own equipment and a revenue stream for Comcast.

*And note: You do realize that the cable companies have already started lobbing the FCC to remove the requirement that they support CableCARDs as they say no one uses them and it's an undue burden for them? Even though they can use the same tech in the CableCARDs as their DVRs and set top boxes.
*
Anyone with free time should go to: http://www.fcc.gov/complaints


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Tanquen said:


> Dude, are you just messing with me, work for Comcast? I put quote marks around it. Im not just making stuff up. Not where I said it is? Its a copy and paste from the FCC site. I said it was on the FCC site. I went to the site and searched for, I think wait for it cable cards.
> 
> Federal Communications Commission
> The FCC
> ...


Gratuitous insults will get you nowhere (although I'm normally accused of being a TiVo employee; somewhat refreshing to work in a new place!).

For you spectators, here's the link to his text, which I was now able to find:
http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights

Unfortunately, there's no extra text there to remove the ambiguity. Yes, it could mean what you say it means, but it also supports the alternative interpretation that I said before: they are not charging you for using your own equipment, they are charging you for an additional outlet. They would be charging you for that additional outlet even if you used their equipment. There is no extra charge for using your own equipment.

However, the regulations, which I gave you two links to, are not ambiguous at all. They clearly support the latter interpretation with no support for your interpretation. And it's the regulations that matter.

Also note that you claim there was a deal not to charge for second or third TVs, presumably even if you used cable company equipment. There is absolutely no text here (or anywhere else on the site, AFAIK) that would keep them from charging an additional outlet fee if their own equipment was used.

I'm not happy with the situation, but the regulations are what they are, and there is nothing in the regulations that I've seen that suggests additional outlet fees can't be charged if TiVos are used, as long as they are charged if their own equipment is used.

Useless complaints to the FCC to the contrary will just distract from the real complaints we have about the additional changes the cable companies want to impose on us, as you have touched on.


----------



## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

I think it's fair to charge money for additional outlets, using CableCard or their STB. Why should a household with 1 TV pay the same amount as a household with 10 TVs?


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

c3 said:


> I think it's fair to charge money for additional outlets, using CableCard or their STB. Why should a household with 1 TV pay the same amount as a household with 10 TVs?


Because with 10 TVs they would pay more if they needed cable cards, the cable Co. should only charge extra for what they provide, and cost them money, say an amp or other equipment. In the analog days it would not cost the cable co anything for you to have basic cable on one outlet or 10 outlets, if you had only one outlet and 10 people in your family watched a movie in the one room should cable co charge more money?, it may be legal and possible now to charge more per outlet, but not very moral. This will be a bummer for TiVo also so TiVo should try to do something about this charge issue.


----------



## button1066 (Sep 4, 2012)

slowbiscuit said:


> I have 2 cards and returned the last DTA earlier this year, so my bill shows $5 in credits and a $9.95 A/O fee for second card, but no HD tech fee.


You might get a pleasant surprise if you call them and tell the rep that both cablecards are in the same tivo - it means they count as one outlet and the a/o charge should be removed.


----------



## swerver (May 18, 2012)

c3 said:


> I think it's fair to charge money for additional outlets, using CableCard or their STB. Why should a household with 1 TV pay the same amount as a household with 10 TVs?


Does a house with more computers pay more for internet? Maybe if they go over a bandwidth cap, but otherwise no.

Does it cost the provider more if you are watching 1 tv vs. 10 tv's? I'm not entirely sure but I think the answer here is also no.

Seems they charge for outlets only because they can and have been allowed to do so. What if all internet traffic was encrypted and we were required to have a provider box to decrypt on all computers? I feel I am paying for them to provide me a signal. What I do with that is up to me, and if I want to split it, it's none of the provider's business. (excluding restrictions like rebroadcasting) That's how it used to be, before digital gave them the ability to charge per outlet.


----------



## ltxi (Feb 14, 2010)

Since the move to digital cable and the necessity of cable cards in early 2010, I've been paying $1.99/mo/card. I have a truck roll coming next for two Roamios replacing two HD S3s. Price hasn't changed....still two bucks a month. Comcast...Denver


----------



## Tanquen (Jun 1, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Gratuitous insults will get you nowhere (although I'm normally accused of being a TiVo employee; somewhat refreshing to work in a new place!).
> 
> For you spectators, here's the link to his text, which I was now able to find:
> http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights
> ...


The ambiguity is them coming up with a name for something and charging you for it when the rule says they can not do that. ???

You can say my argument doesn't hold but then the alternative is it's ok for them to make up a fee and say that its charged on all their devices and then charge people that want CableCARDs that same fee. Wait that is what they are doing. What if they said their $10 a month set-top box is only 50 cents a month to lease and the port fee is $9.50 or more? Wait that is what they are doing. Yea sounds good, the Comcast box is 50 cents month and the port fee is $55 and with the Comcast equipment discount you only pay $10 but if you want a CableCARD you pay $55.50 but they'll credit you the 50 cents for providing your own equipment so that's $55. I hope they are not reading this.

"Use your own set-top box *without extra charge*. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5)(C). Your cable operator may charge you to lease a CableCARD or tuning adapter, but *may not charge you an additional service fee *for using your own digital-cable-ready television or set-top box."

So much ambiguity and it's not in the right place on the FCC site. I don't agree.

"Gratuitous insults" You told me I was making it up and it was not were I said it was. I'm insulted! I do hope you are kidding. I don't really think you work for them but I don't get that you don't get it.

But it says somewhere else they can charge extra because it's called this thing that they say they charge for other stuff they sell. No, I do not agree. This is a rule for CableCARDs not set-top boxes or TV's OR DVRs. I cannot buy a set-top box and then demand that they give me HBO for free. They can charge for programing that they would otherwise charge for. They cannot add fees or charges for service to the device. "may not charge you an additional service fee" Fee for CableCARD, $$ ok and fee for&#8230; No! No and then! Fee for physical device to verify I paid for what I'm watching ok and fee for... No! No and then!

"Unfortunately, there's no extra text there to remove the ambiguity. Yes, it could mean what you say it means,"

What, what, what?

1.	Use your own set-top box without extra charge.
2.	Your cable operator may (may, like that, will more like) charge you to lease a CableCARD or tuning adapter.
3.	May not charge you an additional service fee for using your own digital-cable-ready television or set-top box.
4.	They could have just put item 2 and left it at that but they did not. So this item would be what to stop the port fee? I think 1-3 cover it and well. Maybe "Cannot charge a port fee." sounds good, that should cover it. Nope, because now we have a numeration fee. Each device on their network takes up a serial number and someone has to help pay for that.

It's all so silly anyway. They know people don't like it but they do it anyway. It says on the FCC site (not in the right place) that they can't do it but they do it anyway. It's probably something like, they don't have to pay tax on software or service fees so they want the revenue that way, when they could just add a dollar to the lease fee that they can legally charge.

These are not useless complaints. http://www.fcc.gov/complaints


----------



## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

Tanquen said:


> You can say my argument doesnt hold but then the alternative is its ok for them to make up a fee and say that its charged on all their devices and then charge people that want CableCARDs that same fee. Wait that is what they are doing. What if they said their $10 a month set-top box is only 50 cents a month to lease and the port fee is $9.50 or more? Wait that is what they are doing. Yea sounds good, the Comcast box is 50 cents month and the port fee is $55 and with the Comcast equipment discount you only pay $10 but if you want a CableCARD you pay $55.50 but theyll credit you the 50 cents for providing your own equipment so thats $55. I hope they are not reading this.


I'm OTA only, so I'm inclined to agree with you. But what do you expect from the cable companies? There was a time when phone companies charged for each phone connected, and it was forbidden to attach "foreign" devices (equipment purchased elsewhere) to the phone line. Like local phone companies back then and mobile providers now, the cable companies will push every regulation to the limit and try to get away with anything that the regulators and their customers will put up with. The ultimate solution is to "vote with your feet". If more and more people "cut the cord", the cable companies may finally start to see the error of their ways. Until then, don't hold your breath. Just doing what's fair and just isn't in their nature.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

button1066 said:


> You might get a pleasant surprise if you call them and tell the rep that both cablecards are in the same tivo - it means they count as one outlet and the a/o charge should be removed.


I tried that tack when the rep called about my FCC complaint, but they were able to verify that I was using them in two devices (via the Host ID in the pairing).


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

ltxi said:


> Since the move to digital cable and the necessity of cable cards in early 2010, I've been paying $1.99/mo/card. I have a truck roll coming next for two Roamios replacing two HD S3s. Price hasn't changed....still two bucks a month. Comcast...Denver


This was another part of my complaint - Comcast does not consistently bill the same amount for cards, even within the same area. It was acknowledged as an issue by Comcast to the FCC but not much has changed, obviously.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

swerver said:


> Seems they charge for outlets only because they can and have been allowed to do so.


This is exactly why they do it, same reason why Tivo charges a bogus service fee for the Mini. Because they can.


----------



## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

slowbiscuit said:


> This was another part of my complaint - Comcast does not consistently bill the same amount for cards, even within the same area. It was acknowledged as an issue by Comcast to the FCC but not much has changed, obviously.


Even in the same account. They bill me one cable card at $1.15 and another as an AO. They are in two different TiVos.


----------



## jalind (Feb 27, 2005)

c3 said:


> I think it's fair to charge money for additional outlets, using CableCard [sic] or their STB. Why should a household with 1 TV pay the same amount as a household with 10 TVs?


A household with 1 TV will pay less than one with 10 TVs. It's a matter of how much less. An appropriate monthly fee for each CableCARD is legitimate. What isn't legitimate is being charged nearly the same or more for a TiVo with CableCARD compared to a cable company's STB. The service provider is providing no more goods and services to 10 TVs than to 1 TV in the same household beyond supporting the cable company's equipment being used. Hence, the rental fees for their equipment. If I have my own STBs (TiVos), I'm responsible for their care, maintenance and any problems with them, not the cable company.

Comcast has structured things with so many different add-on fees, in their effort to make more money, that it's difficult for anyone to understand it all, including their own employees. It's impossible to go to their web site and figure out how much a subscription would (should) cost per month. IMHO that is the problem. Too many Comcast employees and their immediate supervisors don't understand what subscribers are supposed to be charged for, especially for TVs with CableCARD slots (quite rare now; a thing of the past) and user owned STBs that used CableCARDs. If you read the CableCARD stuff on their web site, it lacks clarity. I had to read it several times to understand what it said. Took me a while to convince them that two cards in a Series 3 (which requires two cards) was not the same as two STBs; had to cite chapter and verse from Comcast's web site to the employee. Another piece of the problem is the overwhelming percentage of consumer devices needing CableCARDs are TiVos (Series 3 and newer), and they're a tiny percentage of Comcast's subscribers, the vast majority of whom rent a STB from Comcast. The cable company's employees that deal with their customers are not evil, they don't handle CableCARDs and the specific fees customers should be charged for them that often. If they did, it would be much more consistent (notwithstanding Comcast fees varying significantly by market region; e.g. the monthly fee for the exact same service is different in Colorado compared to Indiana).

All that said, the corporate strategy (not set by the employees at the bottom, but by the corporate officers at the top) is finding a legal means to charge you as big a fee as possible for every TV in your house that's connected to their cable system. The latest is the notice I just received in the mail from Comcast that the FCC is allowing the cable companies to encrypt all the local broadcast channels they carry. This will FORCE every TV to have a STB or it will go black as everything will be encrypted. Former FCC rules require local broadcast channels to be carried, and they prohibited them from being encrypted. Simply subscribing to the most basic service allowed receiving all local broadcast channels in HD (and in 480i SD) provided the TV has a QAM tuner. The reason for this was ensuring the ability to receive local severe weather and other emergency broadcasts with or without a STB. I'm left scratching my head why the FCC would drop their encryption prohibition. The FCC rule-making and hearing process surrounding this decision apparently escaped much notice. It will get noticed, much too late for the FCC to reconsider it, when consumers find all their additional TVs around the house that don't have STBs have suddenly gone black in the very near future. I predict the cable companies will be deluged with irate customer complaint calls when that happens because watching broadcast network late-night talk shows on the bedroom TV just went bye-bye, without another STB and rental fee for it, and pay a premium for an HD STB if you want to see it in HD versus 480i (which is in 4:3 aspect ratio with really ugly looking resolution on a 1080p HDTV).


----------



## jalind (Feb 27, 2005)

Regarding the formerly free small SD set top boxes that converted digital cable to analog NTSC (intended for older analog NTSC TVs) a number of thread posters have mentioned in passing . . .

These boxes and the requirement for them date back to the Congressional and FCC mandate for OTA broadcast TV to be completely converted to digital no later than June 12th 2009. The government had a program providing subsidized converter boxes from broadcast digital ATSC to analog NTSC so those with analog NTSC TVs could still still watch broadcast TV. You could get two $40 certificates per household to help pay for them in early 2009. One of these boxes cost about $50. The mandate for digital broadcast TV was a significant departure from past FCC philosophy, policy and rule-making. During the development and implementation of FM stereo and color TV, the FCC was absolutely adamant that NO current monaural FM radios or B&W TVs be made obsolescent by stereo or color broadcast. This absolutely frustrated the radio and TV manufacturers who desperately wanted technical obsolescence to force consumers to buy all new radios and TVs from them. It's the reason for the L+R main carrier and L-R sub-carrier scheme used for broadcast FM radio, and for the "color burst" scheme used to broadcast NTSC color TV.

Even with that subsidy, an enormous spike in marketplace demand for HDTVs was anticipated during mid-2009. An overwhelming majority of TVs were not (solely) reliant on OTA broadcast, but are connected to cable (plus satellite). To spread this demand out over time (hopefully several years; better for the public and the manufacturers), the FCC put rules into place to either delay or mitigate cable company conversion to digital by several years. These rules required cable companies to continue providing (at least) local broadcast channels in analog NTSC or to provide a free digital to analog NTSC conversion box if they converted these channels to digital prior to some time in Fall 2012 (don't have exact date) when it would be reviewed again. Comcast was one of cable providers that did this. That is the reason up to two of these boxes were provided free when Comcast distributed them (with a rental charge for each box beyond the first two free ones). The FCC allowed this free analog converter box requirement to expire in Fall 2012 without continuing it. Cable companies could now charge rental fees for their (formerly) "free" boxes. Comcast mailed a notice to their subscribers to this effect. It was likely trashed by many as junk advertising. I remember receiving this notice and reading it after nearly pitching it as junk mail. I knew I had one box hooked up to a small TV in a guest bedroom, but had forgotten I we had gotten two of them. Had to search the house for where I had stored it. These boxes were free ONLY because the FCC had mandated they be free. Once that mandate expired, Comcast leaped on implementing a monthly charge for them. I've little doubt all the other cable companies that had rolled out free converter boxes so they could go completely digital (before Fall 2012) did the same thing.

That's the "back story" behind the formerly "free" Comcast digital-to-analog NTSC converter boxes suddenly appearing on bills with a rental fee.


----------



## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

I don't think this was mentioned yet in this thread. The reason what Comcast does is wrong, by that I mean charging more for CableCards than their own equipment, is all about the DTA's.

DTA's are/were free up to 3 during the transition period. NO Additional outlet fee, NO HD technology fee.

Even after the transition period or extras, each DTA is only about $2. How many customers can get another cable card for $2 or free? A few, but I know it's a minority.

It's even in the Digital Transition FAQ:
http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-support/cable-tv/limited-basic-encryption/

You can get a DTAs OR CABLECARDs it says for free.

In my personal experience, Comcast will want to charge 
+$10 Additional Outlet
-$2.50 Customer owned equipment fee.
and sometimes
+$10 HD technology fee
==
$17.50 or $7.50

It should be more like
+$2.50 DTA additional outlet fee
-$2.50 Customer owned equipment
==
$0 or -$2.50 or +2.50

You saved them giving you a DTA or SD box for free or cheap by having your own equipment. What about the CableCard? all of their equipment used to have a cablecard inside.

This is my own interpretation and no local Comcast agent agrees with me.
I pay
$-2.50 for 1 CableCard as the first device. When I ask for a second, the second one costs me
$10-$2.50=$7.50.
But they'll give me 2 more DTA's for free.

I don't think I'm wrong in theory though because some cities, they do it "correctly" just like this... A cablecard is about the same price as a DTA and you get a discount for using CableCards instead of Comcast boxes.


----------



## jalind (Feb 27, 2005)

telemark said:


> I don't think this was mentioned yet in this thread. The reason what Comcast does is wrong, by that I mean charging more for CableCards than their own equipment, is all about the DTA's.
> 
> DTA's are/were free up to 3 during the transition period. NO Additional outlet fee, NO HD technology fee.
> 
> ...


Additional information and much greater clarity than Comcast has about CableCARDs is provided by the FCC in this document on the FCC's web site. It cites chapter and verse about 2011 FCC rule revisions made to make it abundantly clear to cable companies that they WOULD support CableCARDs WITHOUT punishing their customers who choose to use them with unwarranted fees or stonewalling and pigeonholing customers trying to set up and use devices that use CableCARDs. These rules are apart from the "digital transition" period(s) and their requirements do not automatically "expire" on a preset future date; the FCC's rule-making process is required to modifiy them:
http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights

The non-broadcast TV industry (cable, FIOS, etc.) absolutely HATES CableCARDs and wishes they would quickly die the same horrible death Purple Dinosaur hate-mongers desperately want for Barney. It impinges on their ability to effectively force subscribers to rent their STBs, and they are "linear" which means there is only one-way communication from cable company headend to the card. The card cannot communicate or respond with any signal to the cable company's headend. This is why the CableCARD user must confirm that it's been initiated and validated correctly over the phone during setup. The company tech on the other end of the phone line will not get a signal back from the card. The one-way communication means subscribers using CableCARDS cannot order any Pay-Per-View or other services through their STB. Both STB rental fees and PPV fees (and similar services) are considered very valuable revenue streams with high profit margins, especially PPV. The cable company loses the STB rental and all potential PPV (or similar) fees when a customer uses a CableCARD STB.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

File more FCC complaints peeps, they have a new person in charge now.


----------



## mpnret (Dec 4, 2012)

jalind said:


> The one-way communication means subscribers using CableCARDS cannot order any Pay-Per-View or other services through their STB. Both STB rental fees and PPV fees (and similar services) are considered very valuable revenue streams with high profit margins, especially PPV. The cable company loses the STB rental and all potential PPV (or similar) fees when a customer uses a CableCARD STB.


Cable cards don't necessarily mean loss of special ordering. TIVO users order Comcast video on demand all the time.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> This was another part of my complaint - Comcast does not consistently bill the same amount for cards, even within the same area. It was acknowledged as an issue by Comcast to the FCC but not much has changed, obviously.


Correct. Usually different markets are different. In some markets, the HD technology fee is a programming fee, so TiVo users have to pay it. In my market, it's an equipment fee, so I don't. All I have is one TiVo Premiere on the video side.


----------



## Coffee (Feb 15, 2013)

I think that is actually an FCC violation.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Coffee said:


> I think that is actually an FCC violation.


I wouldn't be surprised. I also wouldn't be surprised if they had some sneaky language to get them around that. They should really harmonize their pricing across all markets. It's pretty ridiculous.


----------



## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

I've reached the point where I'm going to talk to my local franchise authority. Comcast has *again* changed their story about "additional outlet" and CableCard charges. Now they're telling me I don't get the first device free. Instead, I get a $10 discount off the $19.99 HD Technology fee! Their definitions change month-to-month, they can never adequately explain their own terminology and rules, and I cannot accurately compare the cost of owning a Tivo to using their DVR box. This is UNACCEPTABLE.


----------



## Coffee (Feb 15, 2013)

Bigg said:


> I wouldn't be surprised. I also wouldn't be surprised if they had some sneaky language to get them around that. They should really harmonize their pricing across all markets. It's pretty ridiculous.


From FCC website (fcc.gov): 


> Pay only for equipment you have. Your operator must give you a discount on any packages that include the price of a set-top box if you choose to use your own CableCARD-enabled device. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5).


While that doesn't technically break the rules, charging more for a CableCARD than for standard devices does definitely break the spirit of the rule.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Coffee said:


> From FCC website (fcc.gov):
> 
> While that doesn't technically break the rules, charging more for a CableCARD than for standard devices does definitely break the spirit of the rule.


They call it a programming fee in some markets, which doesn't break the rules. Where it is an equipment fee, they don't charge TiVo users for it, like where I am. It sucks, and it's unfair and uncompetitive, but to be honest, I'd much rather see the FCC go after them for anti-competitive pricing on their internet plans than for CableCard devices.


----------



## tnorfleet (Dec 23, 2009)

HazelW said:


> Generally, Comcast charges you about $9.95 for each outlet after the first one. They will give you a set top box OR a cable card for no charge to use on that outlet. If it is a cable card, you get a $2.50 rebate for using your own set top box. If the TiVo takes two cable cards, they charge about $1.15 for the second card.
> 
> So if you are getting the cable card for free and no charge for the outlet, consider yourself lucky and hope they don't audit your account.


Exactly. Comcast recently changed their pricing structure in my area of South Florida. Used to be a $2.50 charge for the cable card and no outlet fee - now it's $9.95 for an additional HD outlet with a $2.50 credit for "customer owned equipment." I guess they decided they could get away with charging for the outlet and crediting the equipment to generate more revenue, than just charging $2.50 for the cable card.


----------

