# TiVo Desktop doesn't work with Snow Leopard



## OzDave

I just updated to a Snow Leopard seed and I see that my TiVo Desktop won't work anymore. The console spew below. I tried installing it again, I get "Tivo Desktop can't be installed on this computer" "The specified message could not be found for the index 19"

Console spew when trying to start the existing TiVo Desktop:
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067]	[Deprecated] CocoaJava: com.apple.cocoa.foundation.NSData
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067]	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com/apple/cocoa/foundation/NSData
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067] at com.tivo.server.TiVoDesktop.getTiVoDesktopVersion(TiVoDesktop.java:89)
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067] at com.tivo.server.TiVoDesktop.<clinit>(TiVoDesktop.java:21)
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067]	Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: com.apple.cocoa.foundation.NSData
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067] at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:200)
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067] at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067] at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(URLClassLoader.java:188)
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067] at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:319)
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067] at sun.misc.Launcher$AppClassLoader.loadClass(Launcher.java:330)
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067] at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:254)
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067] at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClassInternal(ClassLoader.java:399)
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067] ... 2 more
8/3/09 7:38:18 PM	[0x0-0x109109].com.apple.systempreferences[61067]	TiVoDesktop: can't launch TiVoDesktop!


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Aren't Snow Leopard seeds covered under NDA?

In any case, the exception indicates that TiVo Desktop is still using the deprecated-since-2005 Cocoa-Java bridge classes. Sounds like the window for using the deprecated API closed.


----------



## richsadams

So where did you obtain an advance copy of SL? Just jealous.


----------



## AudioNutz

Does kmttg work with Snow Leopard?


----------



## sobenski

Would appreciate any info as to whether Tivo is working on fixing this or if you all think it is patchable. I don't know if I can endure another multiyear wait for a mac update from TiVo ...


----------



## Null Register

Someone on the Roxio boards was able to get TiVo Transfer to launch by installing Rosetta (optional with Snow Leopard) and telling the OS to launch it with Rosetta. However, they are still having problems...

I can't post the link since I don't have enough TiVo Community posts, but if you Google for "Tivo Transfer and Snow Leopard" in quotes, you'll find it quickly.


----------



## b_scott

Those upgrading to Snow Leopard today, might want to wait if you use Tivo Desktop or Toast:

http://snowleopard.wikidot.com/

TivoDesktop	1.94 NOT working	Does not start, shows java errors in log files


----------



## ShoutingMan

I'll confirm it: I received and upgraded to Snow Leopard this afternoon and my Tivo Desktop is no longer working. My TivoHD no longer sees my MacBook Pro on the network.

This is an unpleasant surprise. I use Tivo Desktop regularly to stream music from my iTunes library through either of our two TivoHD units. It's become an important feature to me. I'm at a loss as to how to work around this.


----------



## richsadams

A good/better alternative for transferring files to/from TiVo and Mac is PyTiVoX and iTiVo. KMTTG is another good one. I have all three loaded on my iMac 24" aluminum. 

That said, I have Snow Leopard sitting here and intend to install it later this evening or tomorrow so I can't say if they will work or not right now. If no one else confirms one way or the other I'll post later.


----------



## mburnno

Does this really surprise anyone! I mean really look how they treat Mac users.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Yup, it's broken, for exactly the reason I mentioned in my last post (the Java/Cocoa bridge classes are gone, since Apple has moved to the Java 6 SE JVM).

Fortunately, it doesn't look as if they're using those classes for too much, so it shouldn't be too difficult to fix. I'm not sure what the state of the lame-based audio transcoder portions will be with the move to QuickTime X, since I don't follow those APIs as closely as I once did.

I know that the TiVo Transfer app (from the TiVo/Roxio partnership) also broke with 10.6, and there's already (beta) patches for that available for Toast 9/10 and Popcorn users:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/3613790424


----------



## FrodoB

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> I know that the TiVo Transfer app (from the TiVo/Roxio partnership) also broke with 10.6, and there's already (beta) patches for that available for Toast 9/10 and Popcorn users:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/3613790424


Which would be great if they would actually accept my CD key....


----------



## westside_guy

The main reason I like Tivo Desktop for Mac is it uses the iTunes playlists/organization for music, and iPhoto albums for photos - none of these other solutions can do that, to the best of my knowledge (the one app I found that did understand iTunes inexplicably couldn't handle anything but mp3).

But for video, yeah no argument here - the apps people have developed here are definitely superior to Tivo Desktop.


----------



## richsadams

After installing Snow Leopard I installed both iTiVo and pyTiVox and both seem to be working fine. I will give KMTTG a try tomorrow.


----------



## michaelsmith0004

Hey!! I faced the same problem. So, you got any solution ??


----------



## ShoutingMan

richsadams said:


> After installing Snow Leopard I installed both iTiVo and pyTiVox and both seem to be working fine. I will give KMTTG a try tomorrow.


Do those let the Tivo see the Mac for playing iTunes playlists?


----------



## richsadams

ShoutingMan said:


> Do those let the Tivo see the Mac for playing iTunes playlists?


pyTiVoX allows you to view videos and play music (options to shuffle, etc.). It comes w/StreamBaby for videos and music as well.

When you set it up you add as many shared directories as you'd like, indicate if they are video, music, streaming, etc., click "Apply", give TiVo a minute to catch up and you're good to go.

That said, I use it for videos and haven't had a play with it to see if it recognizes iTunes playlists. I might have time to look at it later. It's a free program and very easy to install and use if you want to do a little experimenting.

Here's the home page for pyTiVo and pyTiVoX:

http://pytivo.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Here's their forum:

http://pytivo.sourceforge.net/forum/

EDIT: The creator of pyTiVoX and iTiVo is a frequent visitor here named "YOAV". You might want to do some searching for more info or PM him. He's terrific at responding. If you find out more do let us know!

EDIT II: Ah, I see you've found the pyTiVo thread on the forum. I'll follow that to what comes back.


----------



## bedelman

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> ...I know that the TiVo Transfer app (from the TiVo/Roxio partnership) also broke with 10.6, and there's already (beta) patches for that available for Toast 9/10 and Popcorn users:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/3613790424


Dennis thanks for posting this. I'm installing it on the only machine I've upgraded to 10.6

- Bob


----------



## pkscout

richsadams said:


> That said, I use it for videos and haven't had a play with it to see if it recognizes iTunes playlists. I might have time to look at it later. It's a free program and very easy to install and use if you want to do a little experimenting.


I'm pretty sure pyTiVo doesn't automagically read the iTunes playlists. There's probably some way to export the playlists and use them in pyTiVo, but if you have lots of smart playlists (like I do), that isn't really a viable option. I think I'll just leave my media center box of 10.5 awhile and see if TiVo ever updates their Mac software.


----------



## bedelman

bedelman said:


> Dennis thanks for posting this. I'm installing it on the only machine I've upgraded to 10.6
> 
> - Bob


Oh well -- it crashes shortly after it starts up and no main window ever shows up. The error log shows...


Code:


Application Specific Information:
*** Terminating app due to uncaught exception 'NSUnknownKeyException', reason: '[<TTDownloadedShow 0x45a990> valueForUndefinedKey:]: this class is not key value coding-compliant for the key startTime.'


----------



## richsadams

pkscout said:


> I'm pretty sure pyTiVo doesn't automagically read the iTunes playlists. There's probably some way to export the playlists and use them in pyTiVo, but if you have lots of smart playlists (like I do), that isn't really a viable option. I think I'll just leave my media center box of 10.5 awhile and see if TiVo ever updates their Mac software.


YOAV confirms that pyTiVoX does not handle iTunes playlists at this time; only plays songs as individual files.


----------



## wmcbrine

It handles playlists, just not _iTunes_ playlists.


----------



## FrodoB

The other thing I'd be looking for is iPhoto integration. I'm teetering on the edge of potentially trying to learn enough Python to scratch my own itch in this regard.


----------



## sobenski

richsadams said:


> After installing Snow Leopard I installed both iTiVo and pyTiVox and both seem to be working fine. I will give KMTTG a try tomorrow.


:up: Kudos to Yaov for the hard work on making these easy to use. Things have come a long way since the days of TivoDecodeManager, etc., which I could never get to work right.


----------



## AudioNutz

richsadams said:


> After installing Snow Leopard I installed both iTiVo and pyTiVox and both seem to be working fine. I will give KMTTG a try tomorrow.


I can confirm that KMTTG does indeed work fine with Snow Leopard.


----------



## ShoutingMan

wmcbrine said:


> It handles playlists, just not _iTunes_ playlists.


Ok, so how do I feed it a playlist based on an iTunes playlist?

Currently I have to make a copy of all songs in a playlist into a separate folder to fake pyTivoX into doing a "playlist". If I can give it a small playlist rather than 300MB of duplicated music, that would be much better.


----------



## wmcbrine

The simplest way is an .m3u file. In its most basic form, this is just a list of files, in plain text, one per line.


----------



## beagledave

wmcbrine said:


> The simplest way is an .m3u file. In its most basic form, this is just a list of files, in plain text, one per line.


I wonder if this might work (there is a Mac OSX version as well)

http://www.ericdaugherty.com/dev/itunesexport/


----------



## westside_guy

beagledave said:


> I wonder if this might work (there is a Mac OSX version as well)
> 
> http://www.ericdaugherty.com/dev/itunesexport/


Hey, that's pretty cool - thanks for the pointer! You could put that in a cron job, or even an AppleScript that's triggered by a folder action (say if a new song is added to one of your music folders).

I know he has a separate OS X program, but since it's built under .NET 2.0 it very well might work as-is on the Mac using the latest Mono runtime.


----------



## rwross

Coming up on two weeks w/o Desktop.

This is quite a poor showing by TiVo and I'm a big fan. It's not like they couldn't have seen this coming. From what I can tell, there is no way TiVo Desktop functioned on ANY of the Snow Leopard development builds that have been released over the past year.

Booo


----------



## Lenonn

Wish I had read this thread before installing Snow Leopard.


----------



## Pvgibbs

Lenonn said:


> Wish I had read this thread before installing Snow Leopard.


Me too!! - I even tried re-installing Popcorn from scratch and upgrading to the 3.0.3 version PLUS adding the "beta" of Tivo Transfer for Popcorn...but still it doesnt work. To make matters worse, the Toast Video player now has no sound when playing already transferred programs....sigh


----------



## Yoav

Pvgibbs said:


> Me too!! - I even tried re-installing Popcorn from scratch and upgrading to the 3.0.3 version PLUS adding the "beta" of Tivo Transfer for Popcorn...but still it doesnt work. To make matters worse, the Toast Video player now has no sound when playing already transferred programs....sigh


Well, to play your files you could use any of the free video players (try VLC: http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ ) which can play a lot more formats than Toast can.

As for pulling shows off the tivo, try iTiVo (http://itivo.googlecode.com/) or kmttg (http://kmttg.googlecode.com/).

Finally for playing shows on your tivo from your computer, try pyTivoX (http://pytivox.googlecode.com).


----------



## richsadams

Yoav said:


> Well, to play your files you could use any of the free video players (try VLC: http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ ) which can play a lot more formats than Toast can.
> 
> As for pulling shows off the tivo, try iTiVo (http://itivo.googlecode.com/) or kmttg (http://kmttg.googlecode.com/).
> 
> Finally for playing shows on your tivo from your computer, try pyTivoX (http://pytivox.googlecode.com).


I have tried or use all of those programs (Snow Leopard v10.6.1) and all of them work better than TiVo Desktop and/or Toast (far better than toast!).


----------



## rwross

Unfortunately, I do not believe any of those programs stream directly from iTunes or iPhoto libraries.

I have to reiterate, this is VERY disappointing and that from a guy with a TiVo sticker on his car and, no kidding, a Husky named Tivo.

There simply is no excuse for TiVo Desktop for Mac to be broken nearly a month after Snow Leopard's release. It was a much bigger change going from Tiger to Leopard and still Desktop functioned with some minor bugs. Minor bugs I can understand, but developers have had Snow Leopard seeds for over 12 months and TiVo desktop could not have worked on any of them.

From my perspective, TiVo has had over a year to get at least a Beta ready.


----------



## richsadams

rwross said:


> Unfortunately, I do not believe any of those programs stream directly from iTunes or iPhoto libraries.


PyTiVoX (PyTiVoX Download) incorporates Stream Baby to stream videos, music, etc. from TiVo HD, TiVo Series3 and TiVo HDXL's. Works great for us!

Agreed, the SL developer models were out there long enough for TiVo to update TiVo Desktop. IIRC this is the first time an OS update has broken TD (not that it hasn't had it's own issues in the past). Hopefully they're working on it. I wonder if anyone is actually calling TiVo to complain? A pile of problem tickets should get their attention if they aren't aware already.

*TiVoJerry*...any feedback?


----------



## Kwamster

richsadams said:


> PyTiVoX (PyTiVoX Download) incorporates Stream Baby to stream videos, music, etc. from TiVo HD, TiVo Series3 and TiVo HDXL's. Works great for us!
> 
> :


Yeah, PyTivo is working like a charm for me on Snow Leopard and (SHOCKER) better than Tivo Desktop EVER did. They really SHOULD hire this guy.


----------



## rwross

...but from what I read, those solutions do not make use of the actual media libraries on the Mac...true?

For example, iPhoto 09 has a bunch of albums that TD used to see and could be published. Those Albums do not have a direct relationship to the folders in which iPhoto actually stores the pictures.

With iTunes, it's similar in that TD used to publish playlists which don't have a direct relationship to the folders in which music is stored.

Isn't PyTivox limited by specific folders you want to make visible to the TiVos?

Oh...and at least TiVo's 2nd line CSRs are aware of the problem. The first line CSR I spoke with had no idea what i was talking about. They wouldn't create a trouble ticket because there is no ETA on when the next TD will be released. I got it narrowed down to 3 days - 1 year.


----------



## Pvgibbs

Roxio JUST put out an update and second version of the BETA transfer program. Its located here

Note the newest BETA program is called "TiVo Transfer for Popcorn BETA2" and has a creation date of 9/11/09. I havent tried transfers yet -- but at least the program OPENS and doesnt crash.

Still no sound via the native Toast Video Player.


----------



## sieglinde

Mac was supposed to be putting updates and patches out to Snow Leopard. Did any of these help?


----------



## rwross

There's nothing that Apple can do to make TD 1.9x work.

From what I can see of the console errors it is due to some fundamental differences, which is why it's all the more frustrating because a) it would have been obvious from the first developer seed 12-18 months ago and b) it's not a trivial fix so c) if TiVo hasn't already been working on it, we're in for a wait.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

rwross said:


> There's nothing that Apple can do to make TD 1.9x work.


Sure they _could_ (they could restore the Cocoa/Java bridge classes that TD 1.9.x depends on), but they almost certainly _won't_ (deaddeprecated is deaddeprecated on Mac OS X).



rwross said:


> From what I can see of the console errors it is due to some fundamental differences, which is why it's all the more frustrating because a) it would have been obvious from the first developer seed 12-18 months ago and b) it's not a trivial fix so c) if TiVo hasn't already been working on it, we're in for a wait.


Actually, when I poked at it the changes didn't look all that dramatic. TiVo Desktop didn't use the things being dropped extensively. I also can't say with any certainty whether this broke in the first seed or somewhere else along the way.


----------



## billscott122

I downloaded and installed VLC and pyTivoX. Neither one is working properly - I can play music, but it won't shuffle, and I cannot see any pictures, even though it displays the titles of the folders. Are there instructions out there for the technologically inept?


----------



## rwross

Congrats on your one month anniversary of Snow Leopard FAIL.

C'mon Tivo...get with it.


----------



## omelet1978

So if you have toast 8 are you totally screwed since they are just making updates for 9 and above?


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

omelet1978 said:


> So if you have toast 8 are you totally screwed since they are just making updates for 9 and above?


Frankly, I'm surprised they're updating Toast 9 and not just Toast 10. Quite a few companies wouldn't update anything but the most recent version of the software.


----------



## richsadams

omelet1978 said:


> So if you have toast 8 are you totally screwed...


Or Toast 9 or Toast 10...anything Roxio come to think of it.


----------



## pgreene8

A TiVo CSR I spoke with says they are working on the fix. But I *love* how them come out with a heavily touted app for the Blackberry BEFORE fixing TiVo Desktop for the Mac.


----------



## chriss999

Ditto


----------



## rwross

This sucks...


----------



## datasound

Hi Folks, I'm glad I read this in time (although I know a lot of people didn't). For me loosing TIVO DESKTOP FOR MAC is a deal breaker for going to Snow Leopard. I use the iTunes playlist everyday and the other aps mentioned here don't help with that. Also, I just don't want to find a new work-flow when the old one met my needs. 

I really hope the people at TIVO fix this fast. And by fast I mean weeks not months. If they don't, then this is just another of a growing list of reasons to abandon the TIVO platform (which I saw with a heavy heart). TIVO had plenty of time to deal with this as Apple released versions of Snow Leopard to developers way before it's official release.


----------



## rwross

Sadly, TiVo is too late to be able to fix it fast. Day 45 :-/


----------



## beagledave

datasound said:


> Hi Folks, I'm glad I read this in time (although I know a lot of people didn't). For me loosing TIVO DESKTOP FOR MAC is a deal breaker for going to Snow Leopard. I use the iTunes playlist everyday and the other aps mentioned here don't help with that. Also, I just don't want to find a new work-flow when the old one met my needs.
> 
> I really hope the people at TIVO fix this fast. And by fast I mean weeks not months. If they don't, then this is just another of a growing list of reasons to abandon the TIVO platform (which I saw with a heavy heart). TIVO had plenty of time to deal with this as Apple released versions of Snow Leopard to developers way before it's official release.


FWIW, I use Galleon to play iTunes playlists (and pyTiVoX to play internet radio stations) under Snow Leopard.


----------



## datasound

Hello Beagledave, Thanks for the info. I have PyTivoX running (version 1.3) and I have streambaby enabled, but I can't figure out how to use it to play internet radio stations. Can it stream the iTunes stations? What am I missing?
Thanks
DataSound


----------



## Kighter

Newest beta (v4a) of TivoTransfer works for me after the earlier betas did not. This gets .tivo files to me (in that method). Obviously TivoToComeBack still broken...


----------



## beagledave

datasound said:


> Hello Beagledave, Thanks for the info. I have PyTivoX running (version 1.3) and I have streambaby enabled, but I can't figure out how to use it to play internet radio stations. Can it stream the iTunes stations? What am I missing?
> Thanks
> DataSound


I just make a folder of the pls or m3u files. I then share that folder (as music) through pyTiVoX. I re-name the pls/m3u files so I can tell what station I'm playing.

Galleon "should" be able to play internet streams as well, but I can't seem to get it to work consistently with the streams. If PyTiVoX handled iTunes playlists directly, that would be the only HME app I would use.


----------



## dmk1974

What the hell? When is this going to be fixed already so it works with Snow Leopard???


----------



## rwross

As a very long time Tivo fan and supporter, I cannot describe how frustrating their lack of SL support is.

Speaking as a customer whose family dog is, literally, named Tivo, I have to say that they are very lucky Apple did not update their &#63743;TV this week or I would have been sorely tempted to swap them all out.

I understand and appreciate the various work-arounds / alternatives, however, basic streaming of non DRM MP3 and JPGs is table stakes they TiVo has provided for years. There is no excuse for it to not work on the current Apple Operating System. I was willing to overlook that PCs could download TiVo content for free using Desktop while I had to purchase Toast, but this situation is the worst of both...


----------



## richsadams

rwross said:


> As a very long time Tivo fan and supporter, I cannot describe how frustrating their lack of SL support is.


I can certainly understand your frustration. Have you looked at iTiVo and PyTiVoX? They can do most of if not all TiVo Desktop can do and more. Both programs are free and work w/SL. Just a thought.


----------



## ShoutingMan

If iTivo understood iTunes playlists, it would be perfect. As is, it's a tolerable solution, but not great.

I am now curious to try how it streams video. I'm come into a spare hard drive; a perfect place to put misc videos


----------



## TheNumberSix

richsadams said:


> I can certainly understand your frustration. Have you looked at iTiVo and PyTiVoX? They can do most of if not all TiVo Desktop can do and more. Both programs are free and work w/SL. Just a thought.


If I want to download shows, the web interface seems to work just fine.

The features I really want are support for iPhoto Libraries and iTunes playlists on TiVo. The Mac TiVo Desktop did all that perfectly. If there's any other app that does that, I'd be interested.


----------



## westside_guy

So have any of the folks complaining about this actually contacted Tivo, or are you just complaining on this forum?


----------



## wmcbrine

westside_guy said:


> So have any of the folks complaining about this actually contacted Tivo,


What, you want them to suffer even more?

Competent TiVo employees read this forum, or at least they used to. I can't say the same about the people who answer TiVo's phones and email.


----------



## rwross

I've contacted TiVo directly and send a weekly Tweet to Shannon.

They are "working on it."

I find it hard to believe it's really that difficult to port the previous version. Some very complicated Freeware has been ported in a fraction of the time. Very disappointing.


----------



## HomeUser

westside_guy said:


> So have any of the folks complaining about this actually contacted Tivo,


 I think TiVo knows about the problem see the Support Article TiVo Desktop for Mac troubleshooting


> We are aware that using Music and Photos on TiVo Desktop on the Mac will not function once Snow Leopard (OS X 10.6) has been installed and we are working to address this.


 then the "squeaky wheel"...


----------



## saharasurfer

This squeaky wheel just made 2 calls to TiVo support about Desktop 1.9.4 and OSX SL. 

The 1st call: I was quickly transfered to Roxio Support. (I know, hilarious, right?). I did stay on hold for a bit in the Roxio queue hoping that a Roxio tech might have some insight on when TiVo will actually get around to releasing a SL compatible version ... but after 5 mins of crappy music I hung up and redialed TiVo.

The 2nd call: Got a different, intelligent, and professional TiVo support person who knew and understood the issue. He even put me on hold, made some internal calls, etc. In the end he came back with ... there's no ETA for it but they "working diligently" to fix it. I can only hope that as more people upgrade to SL and buy new macs the heat will continue to rise on what can only be considered a very embarrassing defect for a company that normally gets so much well deserved praise for how good their software is.

I even took the customer service survey, which is pretty innocuous but allows you to leave a voicemail if you want to give additional feedback. So I took that opportunity to elaborate on why I was calling and how disappointed I was.

SO .... now maybe if everybody on this thread makes the same calls I made, and leaves a CS survey tagged on voicemail (keep it calm and objective) ... perhaps TiVo will assign a developer or two to getting this thing fixed. I'm not saying they're not working on it, but the more the wheel squeaks, the more priority they'll give to it.


----------



## richsadams

saharasurfer said:


> This squeaky wheel just made 2 calls to TiVo support about Desktop 1.9.4 and OSX SL.
> 
> The 1st call: I was quickly transfered to Roxio Support. (I know, hilarious, right?). I did stay on hold for a bit in the Roxio queue hoping that a Roxio tech might have some insight on when TiVo will actually get around to releasing a SL compatible version ... but after 5 mins of crappy music I hung up and redialed TiVo.
> 
> The 2nd call: Got a different, intelligent, and professional TiVo support person who knew and understood the issue. He even put me on hold, made some internal calls, etc. In the end he came back with ... there's no ETA for it but they "working diligently" to fix it. I can only hope that as more people upgrade to SL and buy new macs the heat will continue to rise on what can only be considered a very embarrassing defect for a company that normally gets so much well deserved praise for how good their software is.
> 
> I even took the customer service survey, which is pretty innocuous but allows you to leave a voicemail if you want to give additional feedback. So I took that opportunity to elaborate on why I was calling and how disappointed I was.
> 
> SO .... now maybe if everybody on this thread makes the same calls I made, and leaves a CS survey tagged on voicemail (keep it calm and objective) ... perhaps TiVo will assign a developer or two to getting this thing fixed. I'm not saying they're not working on it, but the more the wheel squeaks, the more priority they'll give to it.


Good info and wise advice. :up:

TiVo just released TiVo Desktop Plus for Windows with some new features and W7 compatibility. I'd imagine any and all TiVo Desktop software development folks were assigned to that project through the release. Perhaps their focus can now turn to supporting the Mac SL compatible version. Well, one can hope can't they?


----------



## ThreeSoFar

I just have to say this is ridiculous.

Get a clue tivo.


----------



## Adam1115

So is there a reason that it's TiVo's fault that TiVo desktop works with Leopard but not Snow Leopard?


----------



## ThreeSoFar

Adam1115 said:


> So is there a reason that it's TiVo's fault that TiVo desktop works with Leopard but not Snow Leopard?


There are several.

Lack of preparation.

Poor coding.

Poor customer service.


----------



## Adam1115

ThreeSoFar said:


> There are several.
> 
> Lack of preparation.
> 
> Poor coding.
> 
> Poor customer service.


No responsibility on the OS makers to maintain backwards compatibility? All software must be re-written when a new OS comes out??


----------



## ThreeSoFar

Adam1115 said:


> No responsibility on the OS makers to maintain backwards compatibility? All software must be re-written when a new OS comes out??


In a timely manner, absolutely.

This aint that.


----------



## westside_guy

Adam1115 said:


> No responsibility on the OS makers to maintain backwards compatibility? All software must be re-written when a new OS comes out??


Backwards compatibility is not always a good thing. For example, over the past decade it's been at the root of several MS security problems involving network security. Apple's historically taken the approach of "if cleaning out 'obsolete' code means stuff breaks, well that's the software maker's problem". I agree it's vexing at times - all I'm saying is making that decision isn't quite as cut-and-dried as maybe you think.

Plus, in my personal experience, the vast majority of my software ran just fine on 10.6 - problems are pretty isolated.


----------



## richsadams

westside_guy said:


> Plus, in my personal experience, the vast majority of my software ran just fine on 10.6 - problems are pretty isolated.


+1


----------



## Adam1115

westside_guy said:


> Backwards compatibility is not always a good thing. For example, over the past decade it's been at the root of several MS security problems involving network security. Apple's historically taken the approach of "if cleaning out 'obsolete' code means stuff breaks, well that's the software maker's problem". I agree it's vexing at times - all I'm saying is making that decision isn't quite as cut-and-dried as maybe you think.
> 
> Plus, in my personal experience, the vast majority of my software ran just fine on 10.6 - problems are pretty isolated.


Sure. And I recall the same thing happening with Vista, and TiVo took some time to rewrite it....


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Tweeted just a few minutes ago:



@tivedesign said:


> Just released: TiVo Desktop 1.95 for Mac. Now compatible with Snow Leopard! http://bit.ly/YEYn9 (Thanks for your patience.)


----------



## richsadams

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Tweeted just a few minutes ago:


Thanks for that. :up: I just downloaded and installed it. All of my photos are showing up fine. It's been so long since I used it...didn't it used to show all of the iTunes playlists? Only some of the songs and albums and just one of my playlists are displayed. I rebooted TiVo, my iMac, started and stopped and re-started TiVo Desktop but still no love. Strange (or maybe not?).


----------



## MikeSerrano

richsadams said:


> Thanks for that. :up: I just downloaded and installed it. All of my photos are showing up fine. It's been so long since I used it...didn't it used to show all of the iTunes playlists? Only some of the songs and albums and just one of my playlists are displayed. I rebooted TiVo, my iMac, started and stopped and re-started TiVo Desktop but still no love. Strange (or maybe not?).


Just downloaded and installed. All my photos and playlists show up in OS X 10.6.2.


----------



## hargreae

I'm very happy that TiVo updated TiVo Desktop for Mac to be compatible with Snow Leopard. 

I do still have a problem, however, with viewing photos. They are all squished horizontally, so everyone looks skinnier. Is this just a problem with having an "older" version of iPhoto? I'm using iPhoto '08 (version 7.1.5)


----------



## mackworth

Well, if Tivo were doing active development on this, there wouldn't have been much of an issue. Apple announced back in 2004 with 10.4 that the JavaBridge was deprecated (not to be used for the non-programmers).

Anybody else notice that the video GoBack stuff seems to be missing? (You know, hold down the Option key in the prefs panel and be able to have the Tivo retrieve compatible videos from your machine).

Finally, has anyone gotten AACs with LAME again?


----------



## solutionsetc

mackworth said:


> Anybody else notice that the video GoBack stuff seems to be missing? (You know, hold down the Option key in the prefs panel and be able to have the Tivo retrieve compatible videos from your machine).
> 
> Finally, has anyone gotten AACs with LAME again?


It was the COMMAND key; and it still works. Haven't look at the LAME issue yet. My 10.6 install was a clean one so I will probably need to hunt down and reinstall the LAME encoder binary.

Are you saying you're having issues with AAC's with LAME 3.97 installed?


----------



## bedelman

For reference -- the option key exposed the checkbox to generate a log file

Apple/Command is still working for me as well to expose the video tab


----------



## unagiboy

Installed 1.95 for the Mac. Running 10.6.2.

Tivo does not see my photos or music.

Rebooted. Unplugged/Replugged router etc etc. Reinstalled 1.95.

Nada.

Ideas?

Thanks.


----------



## solutionsetc

unagiboy said:


> Installed 1.95 for the Mac. Running 10.6.2.
> 
> Tivo does not see my photos or music.
> 
> Rebooted. Unplugged/Replugged router etc etc. Reinstalled 1.95.
> 
> Nada.
> 
> Ideas?
> 
> Thanks.


Try turning off the firewall.


----------



## mackworth

Are the missing songs AAC or MP3? (And if a playlist has nothing but AACs in it, it doesn't show up. Look in your Console under TivoDesktop.log, and it should show you which songs it found, and which it rejected)


----------



## mackworth

solutionsetc said:


> It was the COMMAND key; and it still works. Haven't look at the LAME issue yet. My 10.6 install was a clean one so I will probably need to hunt down and reinstall the LAME encoder binary.
> 
> Are you saying you're having issues with AAC's with LAME 3.97 installed?


Ah, thank you on the Command key; you're quite right. No, I haven't found a SL-compatible download yet (although I haven't looked real hard yet).


----------



## unagiboy

Cannot tell what songs were rejected-- TiVo does not see the music or photos at all-- no console entries. 

Why turn off firewall when 1.95 is (theoretically) enabled?


----------



## solutionsetc

unagiboy said:


> Why turn off firewall when 1.95 is (theoretically) enabled?


Troubleshooting 101.


----------



## datasound

I just downloaded Tivo Desktop 1.95 on (2) different home Macs. One is running Leopard and the other running Snow Leopard 10.6.2. In both cases the playlists from iTunes are not showing up. I check the box that says "Publish entire Library" and the playlist still aren't there on the TIVO. Anyone got any ideas? Am I missing something here?

OH,, there is one other strange behavior. When I click on the TIVODESKTOP ICON in the system preferences it gives me this message before opening: *To use the "TiVo Desktop" preferences pane, System Preferences must quit and reopen.*


----------



## bedelman

datasound said:


> OH,, there is one other strange behavior. When I click on the TIVODESKTOP ICON in the system preferences it gives me this message before opening: *To use the TiVo Desktop preferences pane, System Preferences must quit and reopen.*


That's actually quite normal when the preference pane is 32-bit only. System Preferences (the application) starts up in 64-bit mode by default on a computer that supports 64-bit (my old Intel iMac Core Duo doesn't do 64-bit so I don't get this on that machine). System Preferences needs to quite and restart in 32-bit mode to access the 32-bit preference pane.

As far as your music not appearing -- try turning off the Mac OSX firewall (in the Security preference pane) if you have it enabled. If it works with the firewall off, you can add an exception to the firewall which will allow it to work with the firewall enabled.

If it still doesn't work with the firewall disabled, it can be that your router is blocking the Bonjour discovery protocol. Your router should have a setting for allowing mDNS discovery -- which can be enabled to allow for this. If you have an Apple branded router, this isn't necessary

- Bob


----------



## datasound

Hi Bob, Thanks for the fast reply and thanks for trying to help. Couple things....

I checked and the firewall is OFF. But I may not have been exactly clear on what's happening. I'm going to TIVO right now and selecting Music Photos & Showcases and then selecting my MacBook Pro 2.33Ghz Intel Core 2 duo running 10.6.2. What I see in the list is exactly: folders names ARTISTS, ALBUMS SONGS PODCASTS GENRES COMPOSERS and then finally a music note icon that is simply named MUSIC. And when I select MUSIC there are 43 songs in it from my library. But When I go to iTunes I do not see most of those folders and instead I see my under the Playlist "iTunes DJ", "Recently Played" and then 4 musical notes which represent (4) playlist, (2) of them have a list of music from my library and then the other (2) just have one entry in them which are iTunes radio stations. Under the previous TIVO DESKTOP I could stream the iTunes radio stations over TIVO and it was fantastic. None of these are showing up on the TIVO now.

The other follow up question I have is this. I think you are saying that when apple went to Snow Leopard they made the SYSTEM PREFERENCES APP 64 bit. And that when Tivo released TIVO DESKTOP 1.95 today they didn't make it a 64 bit version so the APP has to restart in 32 bit mode. Do I have this right? 

Thanks again for your help.


----------



## bedelman

datasound said:


> What I see in the list is exactly: folders names ARTISTS, ALBUMS SONGS PODCASTS GENRES COMPOSERS and then finally a music note icon that is simply named MUSIC.


The Artists, Albums, Songs, Podcasts, Genres, Composers (although I hadn't seen "Composers" before) are all "built-in" to the TiVo Desktop feature set -- and it uses those the same as you can browse your music library within iTunes itself and then use the Column Browser setting (located in the View menu)



datasound said:


> And when I select MUSIC there are 43 songs in it from my library.


Could it be that you have only 43 songs in your entire iTunes library that are MP3 files (excluding DRM'ed and AAC tracks)? I think "Music" also matches the "Music" item under the library section in iTunes on the left sidebar



datasound said:


> But When I go to iTunes I do not see most of those folders and instead I see my under the Playlist "iTunes DJ", "Recently Played" and then 4 musical notes which represent (4) playlist, (2) of them have a list of music from my library and then the other (2) just have one entry in them which are iTunes radio stations. Under the previous TIVO DESKTOP I could stream the iTunes radio stations over TIVO and it was fantastic. None of these are showing up on the TIVO now.


The iTunes DJ isn't really a playlist -- so I doubt it would appear. And you might only be seeing MP3 files again.

I suspect that what's happening is that you've lost the support to handle AAC feeds since you no longer have a valid copy of LAME running. I'm not sure if there's a Snow Leopard compatible copy of LAME available yet either.



datasound said:


> The other follow up question I have is this. I think you are saying that when apple went to Snow Leopard they made the SYSTEM PREFERENCES APP 64 bit. And that when Tivo released TIVO DESKTOP 1.95 today they didn't make it a 64 bit version so the APP has to restart in 32 bit mode. Do I have this right?


Yep -- that's it. Why they didn't make the preference pane to be 64-bit is a mystery because indications are that it wouldn't have been all that difficult to do so (based on what Dennis Wilkinson has mentioned)

- Bob


----------



## datasound

Hello Again, OK, well that seems to explain it. I guess now my only task is to figure out how to switch my one Mac that is still on OSX 10.5 back to TIVODESKTOP 1.94 <Heavy Sign>. This 2 steps forward 1 step back aspect to all this technology is really taking it's toll on me. The new SDV tuning adapter is also turning out to be a pain in the but, but I save that for another day.
take care


----------



## gerickson

bedelman said:


> That's actually quite normal when the preference pane is 32-bit only. System Preferences (the application) starts up in 64-bit mode by default on a computer that supports 64-bit (my old Intel iMac Core Duo doesn't do 64-bit so I don't get this on that machine). System Preferences needs to quite and restart in 32-bit mode to access the 32-bit preference pane.
> 
> - Bob


As someone who just did some OS X preference pane development, there are two things a developer *must* do to get his/her preference pane to open in System Preferences under Snow Leopard without it restarting:

1. Build a binary with 64-bit Intel code.
2. Build a binary with garbage collection configured as supported or enabled (GCC_ENABLE_OBJC_GC = supported|enabled in Xcode).

It sounds like TiVo (or their development partner) failed to do *both* (1) and (2) and also cut off PowerPC users at the knees in the process:



Code:


% /Library/PreferencePanes/TiVoDesktop.prefPane/Contents/MacOS/TiVoDesktop
TiVoDesktop: Mach-O bundle i386

Where what is _should_ have said is:



Code:


TiVoDesktop: Mach-O universal binary with 3 architectures
TiVoDesktop (for architecture x86_64):	Mach-O 64-bit bundle x86_64
TiVoDesktop (for architecture i386):	Mach-O bundle i386
TiVoDesktop (for architecture ppc7400):	Mach-O bundle ppc

Lazy, bad development.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

gerickson said:


> ...and also cut off PowerPC users at the knees in the process:


If all 1.9.5 brought to the table is Snow Leopard compatibilty, then PPC users don't really have much to worry about since Apple dropped PPC support in Snow Leopard anyway. They can just stick with 1.9.4.

Of course, it might be nice if there was still somewhere you could, say, _download_ 1.9.4. Just sayin'.


----------



## datasound

Followup... So on the machine running OSX 10.5.x I successfully uninstalled TIVO DESKTOP 1.95 and went back to 1.94 and it once again works great. And on the Mac running Snow Leopard I'm sticking with TIVO DESKTOP 1.95. However could someone explain once again why version 1.94 lets me see and play on my TIVO Playlists that contain a single entry of an iTunes Radio stations, where as 1.95 can not do this? What changed in OSX10.6 and Tivo 1.95 that prevents this?
Thanks
PS: Sadly, this is a bit of a deal breaker for me as I really want to update to 10.6 on that machine as well. If Tivo can't give us what we had then it is one more reason to start moving off the Tivo format all together (As if Cable Card hassles, SDV problems and lack of VOD features weren't enough).


----------



## unagiboy

OK. Turned off Firewall. TiVo still does not "see" my music or photos.


----------



## bedelman

unagiboy said:


> OK. Turned off Firewall. TiVo still does not "see" my music or photos.


Do you know if your router might be blocking the Bonjour discovery protocol? You can either enable the Bonjour option in Safari (to appear in the bookmark menu or bookmark bar) or use TildeSoft's Bonjour Browser. The TiVo should appear in the Bonjour menu in Safari or in the HTTP service list in Bonjour Browser.

If the TiVo doesn't appear, you may have to turn on something like "allow mDNS" in your router configuration settings.

- Bob


----------



## unagiboy

No indication that it is seen in Safari.


----------



## solutionsetc

This is not a router issue. The router doesn't block traffic between devices on your LAN. That would only be a firewall issue... and you have turned yours off... right?

Go to your network settings on your TiVo to look up its current IP address (xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx). Then open Safari and enter http://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx/index.html into the address bar. Do you see your TiVo's "Congratulations" page? If not, you have a connection problem between your Mac and your TiVo. If you do, let us know and we'll try and take it from there.


----------



## bedelman

solutionsetc said:


> This is not a router issue. The router doesn't block traffic between devices on your LAN. That would only be a firewall issue... and you have turned yours off... right?


Sorry, it very well CAN be a router issue. TiVo Desktop for Mac OSX doesn't use IP addresses. Instead it uses the Bonjour discovery protocol to locate the TiVo boxes.

unagiboy indicates that it's now showing up in the Bonjour menu in Safari -- so it's likely that the router is blocking Bonjour discovery. This is quite common with some Linksys routers that are shipped with mDNS disallowed.

Even if going to the IP address of the TiVo in the browser works (and it likely will), that's only confirming connectivity but not Bonjour discovery -- which again is used by TiVo Desktop for Mac OSX (and iTunes and iPhoto and Toast and ...)


----------



## solutionsetc

Bob...

You and I are having a problem with semantics. If multicast filtering is going on within the LAN, it is a function of the switch and _not_ the router. I gave up on Linksys garbage long ago, but this has nothing to do with the _router_ side of it.

unagiboy... If you're using Linksys, look at the local (LAN) side of it and make sure multicast or mDNS is not disabled.


----------



## bedelman

I've never seen a switch that filtered any multicast packets. There was also the case of the Linksys routers where enabling multicast actually had the effect of disabling it and vice versa.

Just about every Mac OSX application that wants to communicate with other devices on the network will use Bonjour -- and there are several routers (and bridges) that will block Bonjour. In some case, there is a configuration setting to get around this and in others, there isn't.

Since unagiboy indicated that the TiVo wasn't showing up in the Bonjour option in Safari, it indicates that something isn't letting it through and it's been my experience that this is most likely to be the router.

- Bob


----------



## unagiboy

Turned off the firewall. Entered the IP into the browser-- did get the congrats page-- which I assumed I would since my TiVo has been connected successfully to my home network throughout. Still does not see my music or photos. Under the previous version that was a checkbox in the Sharing prefs that explicitly enabled TD which does not appear.

Running 1.95 for the Mac. nearly new iMac. 

Thanks.


----------



## solutionsetc

I am happy to help you with this but we may be here until Thanksgiving trying to do it over this forum. Why don't you PM me your iChat ID?


----------



## bedelman

I'd be interested in knowing what router is in place. By the way, Bonjour Browser can be found here


----------



## unagiboy

Time Capsule.


----------



## symmetric

Hi all,
I'm also having trouble getting Tivo Desktop to work. I've contacted TiVo support and they escalated the issue and said they would get back in 5-7 days. But, I thought I'd try here also. Here are the specifics:

- Mac mini w/Snow Leopard Server (which may be the problem)
- When I open the TiVo preferences pane, "Publish my photos", "Publish my music", and "Start" are all grayed out so I can't do anything.
- If I start the preferences pane with the "Command" button pressed, the "Videos" tab shows up. I can then select "Publish my videos" and the "Start" button un-grays. When it's pressed it changes to stop, but the server doesn't really start (no TivoDesktop process, no log file created, still can't publish photos/music)

I'm new to OS X Server and was thinking it might be some sort of privilege issue...anyone have any thoughts? Otherwise, I'll post back if I hear from TiVo.

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## bedelman

Dave,

Did you enable logging? Hold down the option key when you open the preference pane to expose the checkbox.

- Bob


----------



## symmetric

Bob,
Thanks for the reply. Turns out, I thought logging was enabled, but I had turned it off before I found the Video tab. So now, I'm getting a log file with these exceptions:
java.lang.Exception: User does not have preferences for plugin FilePhoto
java.lang.Exception: User has not enabled plugin iPhoto
java.lang.Exception: User has not enabled plugin iTunes

Also, my server shows up in the Now Playing List, so it's running.

I also found this thread: tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=432557 where you were helping someone with what looks like the same problem. I tried several of the things (deleting & reinstalling, verifying disk) but no change.

I also found this thread: tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4024887#post4024887 and I got FilePhoto to almost work by editing the preferences file (now I'm getting Error#0-65535 when I try to access the photos)

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## beagledave

I too can't seem to get the TiVo Desktop to work with Snow Leopard.

FWIW..pyTiVoX DOES work for both video and music sources, but I would like to be able to play iTunes playlists.

When I have TiVo desktop running, I see the a link to my shared music show up on the TiVo, but when I attempt to play it, I get a message "A problem has occured while accessing the server. This may be a temporary problem due to a network interruption or the server being busy"

I also can't see my photos even though I've published iPhotos. I do have Bonjour Browser. For awhile, I didn't see my shared iTunes music show up in Bonjour Browser, now I see it there, but still won't play on the TiVo.

I did enable logging in the TiVo desktop ..I get a lot of these kinds of items in the log:
---------------------------------------

18:29:35.940 iTunesContext: Rejected song because 
java.lang.NullPointerException
at com.tivo.iTunes.iTunesSong.<init>(iTunesSong.java:112)
at com.tivo.iTunes.iTunesContext.<init>(iTunesContext.java:45)
at com.tivo.iTunes.iTunesRoot.loadFromFile(iTunesRoot.java:142)
at com.tivo.iTunes.iTunesRoot.<init>(iTunesRoot.java:54)
at com.tivo.iTunes.iTunesFactory.makePluginForUser(iTunesFactory.java:28)
at com.tivo.plugin.AbstractPluginFactory.addPluginForUser(AbstractPluginFactory.java:105)
at com.tivo.plugin.AbstractPluginFactory.usersChanged(AbstractPluginFactory.java:136)
at com.tivo.calypso.Root.build(Root.java:103)
at com.tivo.calypso.Root.<init>(Root.java:62)
at com.tivo.calypso.Root.getRoot(Root.java:31)
at com.tivo.server.TiVoDesktop.main(TiVoDesktop.java:75)
-----------------------------------------------------------------

FWIW, I've also tried running Galleon with no success either (it doesn't show up in Bonjour Browser either)

Any suggestions on what to try to troubleshoot?


----------



## richsadams

This is a bit OT, but I just bought a NAS (D-Link DNS-321) and plan on using it to handle iTunes for the three Macs in our house and to deliver music and videos on our TiVo's. I can get TiVo to recognize it via PyTiVoX and playback recordings, but it's the same issue...no playlists.  Has anyone had any success in that area, either using iTunes or another program? TIA!


----------



## bedelman

symmetric said:


> Bob,
> Thanks for the reply. Turns out, I thought logging was enabled, but I had turned it off before I found the Video tab. So now, I'm getting a log file with these exceptions:
> java.lang.Exception: User does not have preferences for plugin FilePhoto
> java.lang.Exception: User has not enabled plugin iPhoto
> java.lang.Exception: User has not enabled plugin iTunes
> 
> Also, my server shows up in the Now Playing List, so it's running.
> 
> I also found this thread: tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=432557 where you were helping someone with what looks like the same problem. I tried several of the things (deleting & reinstalling, verifying disk) but no change.
> 
> I also found this thread: tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4024887#post4024887 and I got FilePhoto to almost work by editing the preferences file (now I'm getting Error#0-65535 when I try to access the photos)
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave


FilePhoto is undocumented and it's not unusual to see those entries in the log file at all (since it's not setup). iPhoto and iTunes should be working though -- but the log entries indicate that you perhaps have the checkboxes unchecked?


----------



## wmcbrine

beagledave, richsadams: I've been looking into iTunes support for pyTivo, but as a non-TiVo Desktop user, I need more feedback on how it should work (not how to implement it, but how you'd want to use it). BTW, there's a good chance you could run pyTivo directly on the NAS.


----------



## beagledave

wmcbrine said:


> beagledave, richsadams: I've been looking into iTunes support for pyTivo, but as a non-TiVo Desktop user, I need more feedback on how it should work (not how to implement it, but how you'd want to use it). BTW, there's a good chance you could run pyTivo directly on the NAS.


Thanks..added a reply to that forum post.


----------



## richsadams

wmcbrine said:


> beagledave, richsadams: I've been looking into iTunes support for pyTivo, but as a non-TiVo Desktop user, I need more feedback on how it should work (not how to implement it, but how you'd want to use it). BTW, there's a good chance you could run pyTivo directly on the NAS.


Wow! That would be beyond and above the call of duty.

I guess I'd just like it to emulate iTunes on TiVo so I could pick from my lists, music, video, personal playlists, etc. It sounds complicated I guess as I think about it. The D-Link NAS unit I bought has an iTunes server, but it's not as robust as the actual iTunes GUI. That's why I was looking for something a little more user-friendly.

I found a program called "Firefly" that I need to explore. But if PyTiVo is an option I'll see how it might work as well. Thanks and TIA for all of your hard work on these programs...they really are awesome!


----------



## mrvagus

Well, I, too am having problems using TiVo Desktop 1.95 on my new IMac under OSX 10.6. It was working fine under 10.5/1.94 before the upgrade, but now, I can only see the PHOTOS listing show up on the TIVO (no music shows up from that Mac), and when I try to access those from the TIVO, I get an error on the TV.

Interestingly enough, I also installed 1.95 on my MacBook Pro laptop running SL and, low and behold, it shows up and plays music on the TIVO just fine, on the same wifi (AirPort Extreme) home network. Go figure.

On the iMac, I have totally uninstalled/reinstalled 1.95, I reinstalled Snow Leopard, I fixed permissions, I rebuilt iTunes and iPhoto libraries, I even did the hokey pokey and turned myself around. But, no luck.

here is a recent log file. Any help would be appreciated...

-----------

14:29:01.994 Starting TiVoDesktop version 1.95
14:29:02.015 PluginLoader.load: loading 4 plugins from /Library/Application Support/TiVo/Plugins
14:29:02.030 com.tivo.filephoto.FilePhotoFactory: adding observer
14:29:02.035 PluginLoader.loadFile: loaded plugin with name FilePhoto
14:29:02.047 com.tivo.filevideo.FileVideoFactory: adding observer
14:29:02.047 PluginLoader.loadFile: loaded plugin with name FileVideo
14:29:02.053 com.tivo.iPhoto.iPhotoFactory: adding observer
14:29:02.054 PluginLoader.loadFile: loaded plugin with name iPhoto
14:29:02.056 com.tivo.iTunes.iTunesFactory: adding observer
14:29:02.057 PluginLoader.loadFile: loaded plugin with name iTunes
14:29:02.057 FilePhotoFactory: about to create new root for user bmonxxx
14:29:02.065 FilePhotoFactory: exception creating new root
java.lang.Exception: User bmonxxx does not have preferences for plugin FilePhoto
at com.tivo.plugin.AbstractPluginRoot.readPrefsAndUpdate(AbstractPluginRoot.java:117)
at com.tivo.plugin.AbstractPluginRoot.<init>(AbstractPluginRoot.java:85)
at com.tivo.filephoto.FilePhotoRoot.<init>(FilePhotoRoot.java:34)
at com.tivo.filephoto.FilePhotoFactory.makePluginForUser(FilePhotoFactory.java:27)
at com.tivo.plugin.AbstractPluginFactory.addPluginForUser(AbstractPluginFactory.java:105)
at com.tivo.plugin.AbstractPluginFactory.usersChanged(AbstractPluginFactory.java:136)
at com.tivo.calypso.Root.build(Root.java:103)
at com.tivo.calypso.Root.<init>(Root.java:62)
at com.tivo.calypso.Root.getRoot(Root.java:31)
at com.tivo.server.TiVoDesktop.main(TiVoDesktop.java:75)
14:29:02.066 FileVideoFactory: about to create new root for user bmonxxx
14:29:02.071 FileVideoFactory: exception creating new root
java.lang.Exception: User bmonxxx has not enabled plugin FileVideo
at com.tivo.plugin.AbstractPluginRoot.readPrefsAndUpdate(AbstractPluginRoot.java:120)
at com.tivo.plugin.AbstractPluginRoot.<init>(AbstractPluginRoot.java:85)
at com.tivo.filevideo.FileVideoRoot.<init>(FileVideoRoot.java:40)
at com.tivo.filevideo.FileVideoFactory.makePluginForUser(FileVideoFactory.java:27)
at com.tivo.plugin.AbstractPluginFactory.addPluginForUser(AbstractPluginFactory.java:105)
at com.tivo.plugin.AbstractPluginFactory.usersChanged(AbstractPluginFactory.java:136)
at com.tivo.calypso.Root.build(Root.java:103)
at com.tivo.calypso.Root.<init>(Root.java:62)
at com.tivo.calypso.Root.getRoot(Root.java:31)
at com.tivo.server.TiVoDesktop.main(TiVoDesktop.java:75)
14:29:02.072 iPhotoFactory: about to create new root for user bmonxxx
14:29:02.121 Root.getAnnouncerForNode(tn) -> com.tivo.iPhoto.iPhotoRoot
14:29:02.121 minorType = tivo-photos
14:29:02.122 TiVoDesktop: successful announcement of: name=Bxxxx Xxxxx's Photos on Mxxxx NEW iMac, type=_tivo-photos._tcp, port=8101, path=/TiVoConnect?Command=QueryContainer&Container=%2fbmonxxx_iPhoto, protocol=http
14:29:03.790 iPhotoRoot.loadFromFile: Reading album data for version 8.1.1


----------



## solutionsetc

Try turning off your firewall, then restart your Mac and Tivo(s).


----------



## mrvagus

solutionsetc said:


> Try turning off your firewall, then restart your Mac and Tivo(s).


I did, but firewall was already off.


----------



## solutionsetc

Have you verified the network settings are identical (aside from IP address) on both the iMac and MacBook?


----------



## mrvagus

Yup, identical. And I can see the TIVO just fine from Bonjour on Safari. And if I run iTivo, I can see the TIVO just fine as well.


----------



## TreesRocksRivers

Hi all, 

Hoping you could shed some light on what might be the problem on my system. Here are the vitals:

Mac OS 10.6.2, Tivo Desktop 1.95a, 2TB Time Capsule, iTunes 9.0.2, iPhoto '08 (7.1.5). Firewall is off.

After I start Tivo Desktop, both Music and Photos show up in my TiVo menu, but when I go to click on them it tells me that "a problem has occurred while accessing the server. This may be a temporary problem due to a network interruption, etc.". When I go to Sarari, I can see the TiVo welcome page when I go to it's IP address.

All of my music and photos are stored on the time capsule, with the music and photo libraries pointing to that location, not on my Macbook locally.

Any suggestions?

Peter


----------



## bedelman

Peter,

I'm not sure if this might help figure out where things are going wrong or not, but you can enable logging (it's called debug) in the TiVo Desktop preference pane. Hold down the option key and then launch the preference pane to expose the checkbox that allows you to do this. The log will show errors related to "filePhoto" not being configured (which is a stated, but non-documented feature of TiVo Desktop to work with non-iPhoto picture directories) -- but those errors are "normal"

- Bob


----------



## elkyss

I'm having the same problem. In the log, I get the line: 

TiVoDesktop: successful announcement of: name=Dad's Pics, type=_tivo-photos._tcp, port=8101, path=/TiVoConnect?Command=QueryContainer&Container=%2fmy_iPhoto, protocol=http

which tells me I should get some sort of response at port 8101. No love from a web browser, and a port scan indicates that port 8101 is not open.

Double checked and the firewall is off.


----------



## bedelman

And what might you be using to check if the port is open or not? The "Port Scan" option in Apple's Network Utility has never really worked well for me. I've begun to use nmap instead. If you install it, you would perform a command in terminal like sudo nmap -sS -p 8000-8999 10.0.1.11 to scan ports 8000 through 8999 for the device at IP address of 10.0.1.11

When I run this against a computer here -- it does show that port 8101 is open

- Bob


----------



## elkyss

Yes, I did use Apple's network utility, but I get no difference using nmap. 8101 shows closed regardless.

If I have iPhoto open, port 8770 (apple-iphoto) shows open because sharing in iphoto is active.

So, TiVo Deskop is active, and thinks it is working

2023 ?? Ss 2:36.05 TiVoDesktop (accepting connections)

But it is not able to open the port.

Have no idea where to go from here.


----------



## beagledave

TreesRocksRivers said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Hoping you could shed some light on what might be the problem on my system. Here are the vitals:
> 
> Mac OS 10.6.2, Tivo Desktop 1.95a, 2TB Time Capsule, iTunes 9.0.2, iPhoto '08 (7.1.5). Firewall is off.
> 
> After I start Tivo Desktop, both Music and Photos show up in my TiVo menu, but when I go to click on them it tells me that "a problem has occurred while accessing the server. This may be a temporary problem due to a network interruption, etc.". When I go to Sarari, I can see the TiVo welcome page when I go to it's IP address.
> 
> All of my music and photos are stored on the time capsule, with the music and photo libraries pointing to that location, not on my Macbook locally.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Peter


I have the exact same issue, FWIW. No luck resolving it.


----------



## TreesRocksRivers

Hmm... After combing the threads and seeing posts related to ports being opened, logs being activated, firewalls, etc... it's basically just embarrassing that Tivo can't get a seemingly straightforward product to work. Even more so, considering that this used to work before I upgraded to Snow Leopard.

Why even put it out there if 

Anyone know of a good alternative to stream music to a home theater from a Mac? 

Peter


----------



## richsadams

I was a victim of TiVo's slow response to Snow Leopard as well. I switched to using PyTiVox and iTivo and KTTMG sometimes. But after TiVo released v1.95a (TiVo Desktop SL Edition) I downloaded and installed it and it's been running fine ever since. I'm running SL 10.6.2 on my iMac as well our other Macs. iPhotos look great and it streams iTunes without any problems.

After the download and installation I rebooted everything...TiVo's, Mac's and router (which I've always done after a network change...it solved a problem I had with something else once...not sure if it makes any difference now really). All of our TiVo's and Mac's are connected to the same router via a number of switches. The first time I started TiVo Desktop a pop-up asked if I wanted to allow the network connection (which I did). In Preferences > Security > Firewall > Advanced TiVo Desktop is listed - "Allow incoming connections". So it's sad to hear that others are having to deal with so many problems. I know they must exist and it must be very frustrating because it should basically be P&P. I guess if there's anything I can say it would be hang in there...there is hope...it does work. Best of luck to everyone.


----------



## solutionsetc

TreesRocksRivers said:


> Anyone know of a good alternative to stream music to a home theater from a Mac?


Airtunes! Seems silly to have to have an HDTV on to control/stream music from your Mac. And if you have an iPhone or iPod Touch you can use it as a remote (even search song and album titles); from the palm of your hand anywhere in your house.


----------



## simbafish

I cannot view my "published" photos located on my iMac (OS 10.6.2) on my new TiVoHD. I am running TiVo Desktop 1.95a and am not using Apple's Firewall, but am using a NetGear Router. Read where over 4 months ago TiVo confessed "We are aware that using Music and Photos on TiVo Desktop on the Mac will not function once Snow Leopard (OS X 10.6) has been installed and we are working to address this." Was TiVo Desktop 1.95a suppose to fix this? Looked at the TiVo Desktop log and gather port 8101 must be opened for Photo transfer. I did a port scan with Network Utility and discovered port 8101 would open for exactly 60 seconds then close. Only way to open again was to Stop, then Start again the TiVo Desktop. One minute later port 8101 would close again. What is causing this closure? Is there anything I should be doing to the Network settings to keep port 8101 open? Help.


----------



## bedelman

I'd suggest you turn on logging (debugging) in the preference pane (hold down the option key when you open the preference pane to expose the checkbox) and take a look at the log. It sounds like there might be a bad file in what you're publishing which is then causing it to shut down. I had something similar with a video file doing this -- using the "hidden" video tab feature (hold down the apple/command key when opening the preference pane to expose it)

- Bob


----------



## simbafish

Bob, Thanks for the reply. I have viewed the log, but basically don't understand. I have pulled out the following, but do not know how to analyze. The files are originally accessed, but then "rejected". Why. The video files can be transferred with either pyTivoX or Mac2TiVo so I know they are good, but rejected by TiVo desktop. Haven't tried viewing (transferring photos) with any app. other than TiVo Desktop. But the photos do transfer to AppleTV perfectly so expect there is nothing wrong with the files themselves, must be TiVo Desktop.

Portion of the TiVo log this morning. Should I send the entire log (approx 80 lines)? 

Log pertaining to port 8101:
09:29:28.742 HTTPServer: made new HTTPServer on port 8101

09:29:28.804 TiVoDesktop: successful announcement of: name=Kyn's iMac (Kyn), type=_tivo-videos._tcp, port=8101, path=/TiVoConnect?Command=QueryContainer&Container=&#37;2fsimbafish_FileVideo, protocol=http

09:29:28.820 TiVoDesktop: successful announcement of: name=Kyn's Photos on Kyn's iMac, type=_tivo-photos._tcp, port=8101, path=/TiVoConnect?Command=QueryContainer&Container=%2fsimbafish_iPhoto, protocol=http



Log peretaining to rejecting files
09:29:28.802 com.tivo.filevideo.FileVideoRoot.updateSharing(simbafish): rejecting shared album /Users/simbafish/Documents/TiVo Recordings


09:29:28.813 com.tivo.filevideo.FileVideoRoot.updateSharing(simbafish): rejecting shared album /Users/simbafish/Documents/TiVo Recordings


09:29:28.819 com.tivo.iPhoto.iPhotoRoot.updateSharing(simbafish): rejecting shared album Prince Edward Island 2009

Stu


----------



## bedelman

Perhaps the sharing violations are indicating that another application has a hold of the file? You should disable the Video publishing in TiVo Desktop if you already have another application like pyTiVoX or Mac2TiVo accessing the same files. I also use pyTiVoX, but have a separate directory for it.

On the photo album -- I don't know. Perhaps you have iPhoto Sharing enabled in iPhoto and something else has a grip on that album. There's no need to have iPhoto Sharing enabled for TiVo Desktop -- so, you may want to try turning iPhoto Sharing off

- Bob


----------



## simbafish

Hi Bob, thanks again for your thoughts. Sharing was already turned off in iPhoto. I have disabled "publishing" Video. Also disabled Music so I only have Photos to publish and then only one small file. Started TiVo Desktop again and in exactly 60 seconds as measured by stopwatch port 8101 closed. I haven't the foggiest idea what is happening. If you have the time, please look at the log for this test - about 80 lines- which I have sent you by email so as not to clutter here.


----------



## bedelman

It seems like there should be more at the bottom of the log than what you sent. I don't see any failures or exceptions noted (other than the ones that are "normal"). The log also showed that music publishing was still enabled at that time

You might want to try running this on the computer
http://localhost:8101/TiVoConnect/?Command=QueryContainer

This will show you (in XML, but you may have to use "View Source" to see it properly) all the "Containers" that are being published from your computer. And this is using port 8101 too

Or you can try this (which has the name of your iPhoto container)

http://localhost:8101/TiVoConnect?Command=QueryContainer&Container=/simbafish_iPhoto

- Bob


----------



## simbafish

Thanks Bob, I'll give it a try. I turned the TiVo Desktop OFF and then ON again and still the last line in the log is:
07:18:10.367 iPhotoRoot.loadFromFile: Reading album data for version 8.1.1

I will let you know the results of the tests you suggested.

Stu


----------



## simbafish

Bob
Do I put the suggested lines in my browser address? If so, then the reply I got for both was "Unable to connect, Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at localhost:8101.". What should I see and where? I tried substituting my computer's IP address for localhost, but got the same reply. 


Stu


----------



## simbafish

Bob, Don't know if this helps. Here is what I get running Bonjour Browser:


local - 18
_appletv._tcp. - 1
_checkupagent._tcp. - 1
_odisk._tcp. - 1
_sleep-proxy._udp. - 1
_tivo-photos._tcp. - 1
_tivo-videos._tcp. - 2
_touch-able._tcp. - 1
AirTunes (_raop._tcp.) - 1
Apple File Sharing (_afpovertcp._tcp.) - 1
FTP (_ftp._tcp.) - 2
HTTP (_http._tcp.) - 1
Internet Printing Protocol (_ipp._tcp.) - 4
iTunes Digital Audio Control Protocol (_dacp._tcp.) - 1
Remote Frame Buffer (_rfb._tcp.) - 1
Samba (_smb._tcp.) - 1
SFTP (_sftp-ssh._tcp.) - 1
SSH (_ssh._tcp.) - 1

Opening up the disclosure triangle under the _tivo-photos entry shows an entry for my computer. Opening the computer disclosures, shows a list including: path=/TiVoConnect?Command=QueryContainer&Container=&#37;2fsimbafish_iPhoto, also port 8101 BUT just noticed this line item: "Can't resolve link-local name". Looks like a problem but don't know how to resolve. Actually I find the same statement for all line items in Bonjour but everything else is communicating wirelessly, like the AppleTV.

Using Bonjour Browser utility, even though Network Utility shows port 8101 is closed, Bonjour still shows it assigned to tivo photos. I opened all line items and do not find port 8101 used by anything else. The closest is port 8000.

I also read on this forum that "The TiVo Desktop service should be allowing ports 2190, 5353, 8101". This statement is two years old so do not know if it applies to TiVo Desktop 1.95a. However, none of these ports are open according to Network Utility and only port 8101 is assigned according to Bonjour.

Read elsewhere to enter the following into Terminal: curl "http://127.0.0.1:8101/TiVoConnect?Command=QueryContainer". Got the result: curl: (7) couldn't connect to host

Tried curl "http://localhost:8101/TiVoConnect?Command=QueryContainer"
in terminal, response was the same: curl: (7) couldn't connect to host

Obviously I don't understand what I am doing. Perhaps you can steer me in the right direction.

Stu


----------



## robreams

I'm having a similar problem streaming music or photos in my Series3, but I've got a wrinkle I've not read about elsewhere in this thread.

I've got an iMac with ~500gb of music on a wired network running Snow Leopard & Tivo Desktop 1.95a. I can access my music file structure through Music, Photos, & Showcases. I can navigate through the hierarchy from Genre to Artist to Album to Track & select a track. The interface will even change to what typically shows when playing music. The progress bar will show the track length & the play arrow, but it will just sit on 0:00 & never start playing.

Any ideas?


----------



## bedelman

Stu,

Do you have another Macintosh on which you can run Bonjour Browser to see if it can see your other computer advertising services?

I saw that Apple released a Bonjour update the other day -- I wonder if it messed something up?

Since the last line in your TiVo Desktop log is the loading of the album data for iPhoto -- perhaps there's something a bit strange there. You may want to try rebuilding your iPhoto Library (hold down both option and apple/command keys while iPhoto is launching) to bring up a dialog










The thumbnails and library file permissions are probably good ones to try first


----------



## simbafish

Bob;

I have two other Macs, an iMac G5 with OS 10.5.8 and an old MacBook with 10.6.2. Both operational. Sorry, but I do not understand what you mean by looking for "other computer advertising services" What should I be looking for?

1. I have repaired Permissions for the entire Startup Disk with Disk Utility
2. I have repaired Permissions in iPhoto as suggested
3. I have rebuilt the small thumbnail caches as suggested

I have not rebuilt the full size iPhoto thumbnails as I have 21,563 photos and this will take some time. It's midnight now, so I will have the Mac chunk away while asleep.

Software Update indeed stated I needed a newer version of Bonjour, i.e. vers 1 which is now installed.

After doing all this, I restarted the Mac. Port 8101 is still closing in 60 seconds, but I get much more in the tiVo log. It listed ALL the albums in the iPhoto library and after that was done, it's writing 

"FilePoller: checking file /Library/Preferences/com.tivo.desktop with multiple 1" 
about every 15 seconds ad infinitum.

Stu


----------



## bedelman

I think the log going further is a good thing -- but not too sure about the FilePoller thing. On the other computers, I was thinking that you would see if tivo-photos._tcp. entry (which would be coming from the other computer -- assuming that only one computer is running TiVo Desktop for now)

When you spin the disclosure triangle open -- it would show the IP address (or name) of the computer actually running TiVo Desktop


----------



## simbafish

Morning Bob;

iPhoto thumbnails now all rebuilt but nothing has changed. Port 8101 is still timing out. 

Using my MacBook (after updating also with the new Bonjour), ran Bonjour Browser. Opening _tivo-photos._tcp. - 1, I get the same information as I do on this iMac except about half as much. 

On this iMac I get
192.168.xxx.xxx:8101(for this iMac) 
192.168.xxx.xxx:8101 (for Airport)
(fe80::xxxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx):8101 
(fe80::xxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx):8101 NOTE only 3 digits in first group (?)
192.168.xxx.xxx:8101 (for Airport)
192.168.xxx.xxx:8101(for this iMac)
(fe80::xxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx):8101
(fe80::xxxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx):8101
swversion=1.95a
path=/TiVoConnect?Command=QueryContainer&Container=&#37;2fsimbafish_iPhoto
protocol=http

Using the MacBook I get the exact same information but do not get the repeat of the IP addresses and MAC codes. Looks like this.

192.168.xxx.xxx:8101(for my daily used iMac)
192.168.xxx.xxx:8101 (for Airport) 
(fe80::xxxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx):8101
(fe80::xxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx):8101 
swversion=1.95a
path=/TiVoConnect?Command=QueryContainer&Container=%2fsimbafish_iPhoto
protocol=http

Except for the lack of duplication, it's the same information. Stymied.

Stu


----------



## simbafish

Bob; You were headed in the right direction asking me to rebuild the iPhoto albums. Against my wishes to mess with my older iMac G5, I decided to see how it functioned with TiVo since it had OS Leopard 10.5.8 and NOT Snow Leopard 10.6.2 installed. I installed the TiVo Desktop, as well as Bonjour Browser. This older iMac has almost all the same photos I have on my new 27" iMac (21,328 vs 21,563). I turned on publishing on the TiVo Desktop and guess what, I got a response from TiVo, I could actually see my photos.

So I made a copy of the TiVo Desktop log and compared it with that on my new iMac. Found the latter's log quit after one of the albums. I removed that album and the one before it, and low and behold, port 8101 stayed OPEN. Went to TiVo and I got the photos. NOTE: The albums deleted, they played properly in the G5. So what was the problem with the new iMac? Errors in transferring? Snow Leopard?

But this was only partial success. First, the response of the slideshow (set at 2 sec each) was extremely sluggish, taking perhaps 10 seconds between slides. Then it hung up, quit and TURNED OFF the TiVo Desktop on my iMac so photos no longer available. 

On the G5, a similar problem. The sluggishness was not quit so bad, but it too hung up and turned off the TiVo Desktop. 

ALL photo albums play properly on my Apple TV! So, there is nothing wrong with the albums. Just TiVo. In my opinion TiVo SUCKS when it comes to viewing photos!

I used the same album in both tests. It has 1000 photos. I have read where some are having problems with large music albums. Perhaps this holds true with photo albums too. TiVo just cannot handle it. Seems to be so poorly designed. In both cases the computers were asleep so they were not busy. I had success with very small albums (less than 20), but also periodically sluggish - but never with the same photo.

Then doing further tests, the capability of seeing photos from the new iMac just was not possible. Port 8101 is still open, but although the place-markers for the photos now appear on the TiVo, the photo is never shown and TiVo eventually quits the attempt with ""A problem occurred while the server . . ". 

I quit. I have AppleTV (hacked) and it works great for both video AND Photos. But since the TiVo was advertised as supposedly capable of doing just about anything AppleTV could, my intent was to remove the duplication of equipment. I guess this just won't be possible until TiVo comes up with a dependable product.

So, Bob, thanks for all your help, but I don't think I will pursue this problem any longer. A week is already wasted without success. E-mailing TiVo got no response.

PS During these tests ComCast came on with an emergency storm banner and TiVo immediately switched to Live TV and locked all the controls until the banner was removed by ComCast. I could do nothing - everything frozen. Interesting.


----------



## richsadams

simbafish said:


> So I made a copy of the TiVo Desktop log and compared it with that on my new iMac. Found the latter's log quit after one of the albums. I removed that album and the one before it, and low and behold, port 8101 stayed OPEN. Went to TiVo and I got the photos. NOTE: The albums deleted, they played properly in the G5.


Apples (forgive the pun) and oranges, but a while back I was trying to move my iPhoto album from my iMac to an NAS and it would begin the transfer and keep going until about half-way through and then I'd get an error message (something about a particular Event date). I finally removed the event (trf. to a thumb drive) and low and behold, everything went fine after that. The file turned out to have a corrupted thumbnail. (The file was transferred from a Windows machine...grrrr.) In any case, one little thing can indeed mess up the entire TiVo Desktop process it seems. Sorry to hear you weren't able to sort things out.


----------



## simbafish

Rich
I accept the fact that at least one of my iPhoto albums may have a problem and it gave TiVo a Conniption Fit but that just proves that TiVo Desktop is too finicky. The same album, in fact all the iPhoto albums on my iMac, stream perfectly AND transfer perfectly to Apple TV. When selecting a slideshow, even of 1000 photos, AppleTV has absolutely no problem. NEVER SLUGGISH. Never a hang up. Never a freeze. I can say the same for elGato's eyeHome application. Again all media data streams perfectly without any hic-cups. So the onus is on the TiVo team to come up with a product that works without being so finicky. Computers are never perfect, fact is they run on just ones and zeros, so there has to be some slack in data requirements. AppleTV apparently does. eyeHome does. I feel that TiVo should have stayed with what they do best and not ventured into areas they have no expertise.


----------

