# Is it possible to use an SSD drive in a TiVo BOLT +?



## dmw426 (Jan 3, 2021)

I have a TiVo BOLT +. All the lights are flashing, which apparently means the drive has failed.
I've been reading various forum threads about replacing the internal hard drive. Seems that there are specific drive specs required. I have a couple of Seagate Barracuda SSD drives that would fit. Also some Crucible SSDs. The SG drives are 2TB and the Crucible drives are 3.8TB.

Can they be used in the TiVo BOLT +?


----------



## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

5TB Bolt Drive to 7.68TB SSD Upgrade, Best Approach?

-KP


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Crucible?

Besides it being a HUGE waste of $, I hope you like wearing out your SSDs. You do realize that the continual writing from recording and buffering of channels will badly wear out SSDs, right?

Please see my replies at Bolt died again-watching digital cable with QAM tuner.


----------



## dmw426 (Jan 3, 2021)

I realize it should have been spelled Crucial. It's interesting about the durability issue with SSD vs spinning drive for Tivo application.
I'm running through the various options available for spinning drives.
So far not having much luck finding one that will work with TE4.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

For my Bolt I picked up a 2TB Toshiba from Amazon earlier this year for under $60. It still uses PMR.


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dmw426 said:


> I realize it should have been spelled Crucial. It's interesting about the durability issue with SSD vs spinning drive for Tivo application.


Were you unaware that flash memory has limited lifespan from erase then write cycles?

This is unlike volatile memory such as DRAM.


----------



## dmw426 (Jan 3, 2021)

Right.
Doesn't seem to make any sense but it is what it is.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

dmw426 said:


> Right.
> Doesn't seem to make any sense but it is what it is.


huh? 
It's a basic aspect of the differences in various storage mediums and the long known weak point in SSDs


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> huh?
> It's a basic aspect of the differences in various storage mediums and the long known weak point in SSDs


And, it isn't even specific to SSDs. This was known with flash memory even before any SSDs existed.


----------



## multiple (Aug 26, 2007)

SSDs currently have to be run under TE3 and not TE4. Under TE4 SSDs get stuck at the startup screen. 
Under TE3 I think the auto formatting stops at 3TB, while under TE4 the Bolt will auto format much larger drives.
So if you use a 3.84TB Crucial drive you will need to use one of the tools to expand the drive past 3TB.

Also, once an SSD size goes past 2TB, an SSD should last as long or longer than a hard drive assuming you enable power savings to stop continuous recording on all 6 streams. You can calculated how long an SSD will last based on the DWPD * MTBF which is supplied in the specs of the SSD or you can assume 100 full drive writes as a conservative amount. Also with many cable companies moving to MPEG4 the stream bandwidth is much lower than the maximum 19.2mbps per stream that might occur under MPEG2 streams. So you can potentially expect nearly double the life out of an SSD. If cable moves to 4K streams, you can expect the lifetime to reduce probably back around the MPEG2 worst case. I believe I calculated around 8 to 14 years before failure on a 7.68TB drive assuming about 8 to 10 hours of writing per day and 19.2mbps max rate on a 4 tuner Bolt. So rough adjustment for 3.84TB SSD and 6 tuner Bolt is 1/2 (for 3.84TB drive) and 2/3 (for 6 tuner over 4 tuner) you can expect 3 to 5 years and if the stream rate is 9.6mbps under MPEG4 you can double it to 6 to 10 years lifetime for the 3.84TB drive. 

Assumptions: SSDs usually have 150 to 300 writes per cell before potential failure, but due to write amplification I assumed 100 writes per cell before failure. Also depending on the firmware of the SSD, data errors are not catastrophic for DVR video unless the drive refuses to write once a fatal error is detected. Manufacturer need to introduce a DVR rated SSD which would allow data failures to occur which minimizes the impact the correction algorithms take to do their work. If the SSD manufacturers did this, we could potentially have SSDs which could last tens of years before catastrophic failure.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

A large part of the SSD longevity question depends on what you consider a reasonable lifetime for a SSD in a Tivo. Given a decent quality SSD (2TB in size), and an average comcast bitrate, and 6 tuners always running, the math says "meh, worry at about 5 years". If you use a larger drive, or use power saving mode (to prevent idle tuners from recording), you can extend that much farther.

To some people, "Only 5 years" is unacceptable. To others, it's perfectly reasonable. That's a personal decision.

A lot of people will overly exaggerate the issue, telling you you're burn up the SSD, kill it in months, etc... At best that's judging SSD's by the first generation, and worst it's just fearmongering.

Now - the TE4 problem however is a bigger concern. Nobody really knows why most SSD's don't work under TE4 (especially those that work fine under TE3). So it's hard to give good advice, beyond the few folks who have found ones that work.


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

multiple said:


> Also, once an SSD size goes past 2TB, an SSD should last as long or longer than a hard drive assuming you enable power savings to stop continuous recording on all 6 streams. You can calculated how long an SSD will last based on the DWPD * MTBF which is supplied in the specs of the SSD or you can assume 100 full drive writes as a conservative amount.
> ...
> 
> Assumptions: SSDs usually have 150 to 300 writes per cell before potential failure, but due to write amplification I assumed 100 writes per cell before failure.


I would not look at MTBF figures at all. They're meaningless to the end user even for hard drives. One can look at endurance stats such as DWPD (Drives Writes Per Day) and TBW (total terabytes written).

If one wants to get a large SSD for a reasonable price, one may be venturing into technologies w/lower endurance (e.g. TLC and QLC).

The tables at Intel SSD 660p 2TB Review: a QLC Bargain (Update) | Tom's Hardware and The Samsung 870 QVO (1TB & 4TB) SSD Review: QLC Refreshed have some stats. The specs at Samsung SSD 870 QVO | Samsung V-NAND Consumer SSD concur w/the table in the 2nd article.

Along the way, I found this formula for DWPD: Understanding SSD DWPD - Drive Writes Per Day.

Also, when glancing thru Crucial Solid State Drives (SSDs) | Crucial US, its filters along with the MX500 and BX500 product lines, I don't see any Crucial SSDs larger than 2 TB, so I don't know where the 3.8 TB comes from. And, again, it seems like a massive waste of $. They seem to retail for $200 or $230. Looks like the cheaper BX500 is QLC while the MX500 is TLC.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

cwerdna said:


> If one wants to get a large SSD for a reasonable price, one may be venturing into technologies w/lower endurance (e.g. TLC and QLC).


Anyone who uses a low endurance QLC drive in a Tivo is shooting themselves in the foot to save a buck. If the statement is that cheap low endurance SSD's are bad ideas in Tivos, then I agree. They tend to have between 1/4 to 1/10th of the endurance of a decent SSD, and perform poorly to boot.

But the broader statement, that SSD's in Tivo's are inherently bad lifespan wise, I completely disagree.

Now, whether they're worth it $$$ wise, is a reasonable question. I see no compelling reason to put a SSD in a Tivo. And there's the pesky TE4 issue...


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

FWIW, the OP mentioned Seagate Barracuda SSD and 2 TB. They seem to be TLC. From the specs below, 2 TB drives seem to have an endurance of 1067 or 1170 TB (TBW).

BarraCuda SSD | Seagate Support US
BarraCuda NVMe and SATA SSD | Seagate US


----------



## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

5TB Bolt Drive to 7.68TB SSD Upgrade, Best Approach?

-KP


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

kpeters59 said:


> 5TB Bolt Drive to 7.68TB SSD Upgrade, Best Approach?


Well, from post 5, it looks like he's running a super pricey enterprise grade SSD which is oddly QLC. But, since it's large, the amount of daily writes is small as a proportion of the drive's size.

From the below (latter is better), they rate it in DWPD depending on usage patterns.
Micron 5210 ION SSD
https://media-www.micron.com/-/medi...df?la=en&rev=695cc31a6b4746b0b60d6ef7d76460cd


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> For my Bolt I picked up a 2TB Toshiba from Amazon earlier this year for under $60. It still uses PMR.


You mean CMR. PMR can be CMR or SMR, it is a generic term now.


----------



## multiple (Aug 26, 2007)

Crucial sources almost all their SSDs from Micron, with their own firmware.
If you are lucky you can pick up the Micron 5210 1.92TB to 7.68TB or Samsung QVO 4TB or 8TB SSD for $70/TB on sale. Prices are still dropping dramatically. I'm expecting 8TB will cost around mid $400 by the end of 2021 and you might see low $400 to upper $300 range in 2022. I happen to use these drives in a DAS which has several 2.5" bays.


----------



## dmw426 (Jan 3, 2021)

I have 5 of the Crucial 3.8TB drives. 4 are 5100 and 1 is 5210. I'm patiently waiting for SoftRaid to get it's software working on the M1 Mac so I can build some RAID sets.
I tried the 5210 in the Tivo, it worked with TE3 but not TE4. I have a couple of spinning disks on the way to see if they will work. One is a FireCuda that Seagate promotes for gaming. Also a 3TB Baracuda 2.5" drive that a tech as CDW said was CMR. The Seagate spec sheet says it SMR so we'll see.


----------



## dmw426 (Jan 3, 2021)

A Seagate FireCuda 2TB HD arrived today. I installed it in the Bolt + and its working with TE4.

That's good news for me.

The Spec sheet says it's SMR. That seems to become a problem at higher drive sizes. Not sure why.
It is described as an SS HD with a NAND frontend to improve performance.

Waiting for a 3TB BaraCuca 2.5" HD to see if it will work as well. That will be then end of my testing.

Time to get the Tivo back into service so my wife can reestablish her to do list.


----------



## David Ortiz (Jul 8, 2002)

What happens if I put a 1TB SSD in my HR44-700?

2+ year old thread talking about using an SSD with a DIRECTV Genie DVR at DBSTalk.com


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dmw426 said:


> I have 5 of the Crucial 3.8TB drives. 4 are 5100 and 1 is 5210. I'm patiently waiting for SoftRaid to get it's software working on the M1 Mac so I can build some RAID sets.


Are they actually branded Crucial or Micron? (Yes, I know Crucial is a brand of Micron but when I looked the other day, there were no Crucial-branded SSDs above 2 TB.)


dmw426 said:


> A Seagate FireCuda 2TB HD arrived today. I installed it in the Bolt + and its working with TE4.
> 
> That's good news for me.
> 
> ...


Not sure what your bolded part means. You do know what What is Shingled Magnetic Recording (SMR)? is, right?

https://documents.westerndigital.co...d-magnetic-recording-helioseal-technology.pdf discusses the 3 algorithms for SMR. Unless the TiVo itself shipped with a shingled drive, it's not likely its write patterns are host aware or host managed... And, if buffering 6 tuners constantly, that really doesn't give much if any idle time for the SMR drive.


----------



## dmw426 (Jan 3, 2021)

cwerdna said:


> Are they actually branded Crucial or Micron? (Yes, I know Crucial is a brand of Micron but when I looked the other day, there were no Crucial-branded SSDs above 2 TB.)
> 
> Not sure what your bolded part means. You do know what What is Shingled Magnetic Recording (SMR)? is, right?
> 
> https://documents.westerndigital.co...d-magnetic-recording-helioseal-technology.pdf discusses the 3 algorithms for SMR. Unless the TiVo itself shipped with a shingled drive, it's not likely its write patterns are host aware or host managed... And, if buffering 6 tuners constantly, that really doesn't give much if any idle time for the SMR drive.


I've read descriptions of the difference between CMR and SMR. I'm not an engineers so don't know the intimate details regarding algorithms etc.
I based my statement on my empirical experience trying to find a drive to replace the one that failed in my Tivo Bolt + and reading on this forum.

The 2TB drive I installed works. a 6TB 3.5" drive I tested also worked. The thread comments I've read indicate that 2.5" drives larger than 2TB that are SMR don't work.
My empirical experience with SSD drives is that 2TB drives work and 3.8TB drives don't. Once again it seems to be something in the TE4 software that is causing the problem since they do work with TE3.


----------



## dmw426 (Jan 3, 2021)

All the 3.8TB SSDs have Micron on the label rather than Crucial. The 2TB drive is clearly labeled Crucial.

IOS Disk Utility also labels them as Micron drives.


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dmw426 said:


> I've read descriptions of the difference between CMR and SMR. I'm not an engineers so don't know the intimate details regarding algorithms etc.
> I based my statement on my empirical experience trying to find a drive to replace the one that failed in my Tivo Bolt + and reading on this forum.


I suggest you understand what shingled magnetic recording (SMR) is, why it is was created, its disadvantages, and understand the descriptions of the algorithms. Then, think about the writing behavior a TiVo has and why that can be a problem if you install an SMR drive, esp. if the TiVO didn't ship with one.

It's like roof shingles that overlap slightly. When an SMR drive writes, it writes wider than width of the track it is writing to can affect data on adjacent track(s). To quote from the 1st URL I posted:


> Clearly with the SMR layout, a new problem is introduced. The write head is wider than a single track, meaning when data is written to an SMR hard drive, data must be written sequentially so the writer doesn't destroy data on the overlapping tracks.
> 
> Of course many operating and file systems aren't used to being restricted to writing sequentially to hard disk drives. As a result, a management or translation layer needs to be created to take random writes and convert them to sequential writes.
> 
> Where this layer resides and how it manages metadata is a new issue that will be discussed in detail by examining methodologies of SMR data management. These include three core methods; Drive Managed, Host Aware and Host Managed.


To quote from the WD white paper:


> Because of the shingled format of SMR, all data streams must be organized and written sequentially to the media. While the methods of SMR implementation may differ (see SMR Implementations section below), the data nonetheless must be written to the media sequentially.
> 
> Consequently, should a particular track need to be modified or re-written, the entire "band" of tracks (zone) must be re-written. Because the modified data is potentially under another "shingle" of data, direct modification is not permitted, unlike traditional CMR drives. In the case of SMR, the entire row of shingles above the modified track needs to be rewritten in the process.


----------



## dmw426 (Jan 3, 2021)

Another update:
Today I received a Seagate Barracuda 5TB 2.5" drive. Vendor Item Number ST5000LM000.
I installed it in the Tivo Bolt + and it loaded TE4 and I configured the Tivo.
It's currently working as expected. I have programmed a number of programs to record to see what happens.

The Spec sheet, along with some information I found online from a review of the drive when it was first introduced indicates that Seagate employed proprietary technology to overcome the short comings of SMR compared to CMR. Seagate Introduces BarraCuda 2.5" HDDs with Up to 5 TB Capacity

Here is a link to the Amazon page from which I ordered the drive. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M0AADIX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dmw426 said:


> Another update:
> Today I received a Seagate Barracuda 5TB 2.5" drive. Vendor Item Number ST5000LM000.
> I installed it in the Tivo Bolt + and it loaded TE4 and I configured the Tivo.
> It's currently working as expected. I have programmed a number of programs to record to see what happens.
> ...


If a TiVo is buffering 6 tuners, there may not be sufficient idle time for the drive. From the article you point to:


> All the new BarraCuda 2.5" HDDs feature 128 MB of DRAM cache as well as multi-tier caching (MTC) technology, which is designed to hide peculiarities of SMR. Hard drives featuring shingled recording write new magnetic tracks that overlap part of the previously written tracks. This may slow down the writing process since the architecture requires HDDs to rewrite adjacent tracks after any writing operation. To "conceal" such peculiarities, Seagate does a number of tricks. Firstly, it organizes SMR tracks into bands in a bid to limit the amount of overwriting. Secondly, the MTC technology uses several bands of PMR tracks on the platters, around 1 GB of NAND flash cache as well as DRAM cache. *When workloads generate relatively small amount of writes, the HDD writes data to NAND and/or to the PMR tracks at a predictable data rate. Then, during light workloads or idle time, the HDD transfers written data from the caches to SMR tracks, as described by Mark Re (CTO of Seagate) earlier this year.*


DVRs that didn't ship with SMR drives that do so much reading and writing all the time can be problematic for SMR drives. It's probably not a big deal for a laptop that isn't constantly writing (high data rate) multiple video streams to disk at the same time...

I noticed in the manual at https://www.seagate.com/files/www-c...op-fam/barracuda_25/en-us/docs/100804767j.pdf from BarraCuda 2.5 | Seagate Support US says:


> Average annualized workload rating: <55 TB/year.
> The specifications for the product assumes the I/O workload does not exceed the average annualized workload rate limit of 55 TB/year. Workloads exceeding the annualized rate may degrade and impact reliability as experienced by the particular application. The average annualized workload rate limit is in units of TB per calendar year


SMR is relatively new. I remember hearing of it when a person from Seagate came to talk at my former employer sometime before 2010 along with other technologies like HAMR. The Biggest Change To HDD Tech You've Never Heard Of, Yet says the first SMR drives came out in 2015.

Will be interesting to see how long the drive stays working in a TiVo, esp. once it gets full.


----------



## dmw426 (Jan 3, 2021)

cwerdna said:


> If a TiVo is buffering 6 tuners, there may not be sufficient idle time for the drive. From the article you point to:
> 
> DVRs that didn't ship with SMR drives that do so much reading and writing all the time can be problematic for SMR drives. It's probably not a big deal for a laptop that isn't constantly writing (high data rate) multiple video streams to disk at the same time...
> 
> ...


I'm not sure that I've ever seen my Tivo Bolt + buffer all. 6 tuners. The most I've ever seen is 2.
Secondly, It's unlikely that we will ever get close to the 600 hours plus recording capacity of the drive with saved programs.
Given the relatively low cost of the 5TB drive it makes sense to install it rather than the 2TB FireCuda option. And either of these options are much better financially than the 3TB option from Weaknees.
The WD Blue 3TB drive that failed is about 3 years old. LoL


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

dmw426 said:


> I'm not sure that I've ever seen my Tivo Bolt + buffer all. 6 tuners. The most I've ever seen is 2


Throughout this discussion you've been making statements like this that just are not at all accurate and show that you may not really understand how the system works, with a 6-tuner unit ALL 6 tuners will constantly be buffering 30 minutes of video at all times, this is how it works and how it was designed, it will never just buffer 2 tuners.

Your statements on not being worried about drive wear in SSDs also ignored what has long been known and discussed about one of their only minuses compared to conventional HDDs, you can say you don't care, but that doesn't remove that it's still the same issue, just because an SSD is better in certain instances does not mean the technology is always "better"

I'll offer up the example of when Halo 3 was available for the Xbox 360 and initially games all ran off the discs and buffered to the HDD, then MS let users install the game to the HDD so that it didn't read off the DVD, and at that point Halo 3's performance went in the gutter until fixes were made, because even though the HDD was faster and had better throughput, the game and console OS had been so optimized for a buffer stream from the disc that difference in how an HDD performs decreased performance. This is the same type of choices that were made as Tivo designed their i/o process, they worked off the fact that they would use low cost 5400 RPM HDDs and optimized for that, it's why a 7200 RPM drive never made a difference.

While it's great to see people expanding and exploring options, when folks do that by not understanding the system as a whole it can lead to random answers and situations that may not be accurate.


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> Throughout this discussion you've been making statements like this that just are not at all accurate and show that you may not really understand how the system works, with a 6-tuner unit ALL 6 tuners will constantly be buffering 30 minutes of video at all times, this is how it works and how it was designed, it will never just buffer 2 tuners.
> 
> Your statements on not being worried about drive wear in SSDs also ignored what has long been known and discussed about one of their only minuses compared to conventional HDDs, you can say you don't care, but that doesn't remove that it's still the same issue, just because an SSD is better in certain instances does not mean the technology is always "better"


Yep. And thus, those 6 tuners buffering results in constant writing of 6 streams to whatever drive is attached which will cause challenges for SMR drives and lots of wear to an SSD.

Press the info button and scroll thru all the tuners.

This is in addition to the scheduled recordings it'll have to make (which will takeover 1+ of the tuners) and any suggestions that TiVo will record + any background disk i/o activity (which will at least in terms of bytes will be of much lower volume than the video streams).


dianebrat said:


> While it's great to see people expanding and exploring options, when folks do that by not understanding the system as a whole it can lead to random answers and situations that may not be accurate.


+1


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I use the high power savings mode. So my TiVos only buffer if they are not in standby. Or are recording something. So when in standby with high power savings mode, if two shows are being recorded, that is all that is being buffered.


----------



## High Technology (Apr 16, 2006)

FWIW, I tried a Samsung 850EVO 1TB drive, and it got stuck at the Starting Up screen...

Not sure if that one was already known as not TE4 compatible, but it' not...


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

High Technology said:


> FWIW, I tried a Samsung 850EVO 1TB drive, and it got stuck at the Starting Up screen...
> 
> Not sure if that one was already known as not TE4 compatible, but it' not...


It is, (known incompatible). A large number of people have tried it on the grounds "It's a good, known Samsung, of course it will work". And, nope, no joy.


----------



## High Technology (Apr 16, 2006)

Thanks, in my case, it was a leftover after being used for ~3 years in a laptop that I recently upgraded (and the new laptop is NVME). I have an extra Bolt so I was testing out the new Toshiba 2TB spinner that I bought to have as a spare (we have 2 running Bolts and 2 Minis that we rely one), so for for the heck of it, I wanted to see what the Samsung did.


----------



## multiple (Aug 26, 2007)

Although it is not TE4 compatible, the 7.68TB Micron drive is now available for $555 (-$27 if you use a 5% cash back card, +tax) at Walmart (via MyTechPlex.com which might be a fake site)...
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Micron-5...8?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101025682

I still expect this drive will hit mid to upper-mid $400 range in 2021.

I'm still planning to try using this drive as an external drive, assuming TE4 does not use the same restrictions on the external drive. I'm still waiting on my eSATA+USB to SATA+power cable to test this out. Amazon lost it in delivery and I had to order a new one.


----------



## dmw426 (Jan 3, 2021)

multiple said:


> Although it is not TE4 compatible, the 7.68TB Micron drive is now available for $555 (-$27 if you use a 5% cash back card, +tax) at Walmart (via MyTechPlex.com which might be a fake site)...
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Micron-5...8?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101025682
> 
> I still expect this drive will hit mid to upper-mid $400 range in 2021.
> ...


That is a good price. Considering that 2TB SSDs are routinely about $200.


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

David Ortiz said:


> What happens if I put a 1TB SSD in my HR44-700?
> 
> 2+ year old thread talking about using an SSD with a DIRECTV Genie DVR at DBSTalk.com


I know of no Tivos running TE4 (Hydra) that will work with an SSD. A FEW Tivos running TE3 (classic) work with some SSDs. But SSD never best choice for a Tivo, IMO. If you want to stick with 2.5" drive use a CMR drive. SOME SMR may work, for awhile, but again never best choice. Here is list of all CMR 2.5" drives 2TB and up. There are NONE over 3TB, any 2.5" drive over 3TB is SMR.

2.5" 2TB and 3TB CMR drives for Tivo Bolts

Best solution (IMO) is use a CMR 3.5" drive in external enclosure. Sata to Sata, not Sata to eSata. With a 3.5 fairly easy to find CMR drives of almost any capacity. And 3.5 more reliable as compared to similar capacity 2.5, and cheaper in most cases. Forget about SSD with TE4 for sure.

Oh, I quoted the wrong post, this is meant for the original poster. But valid for anyone really.


----------

