# Half Baked Series3 at twice the cost.



## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

1. No TiVoToGo
2. Multi-Room Viewing even if you have both S3?
3. No external-SATA hard drive support (not turned on)
4. No Built-in WiFi


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

So don't buy it and wait to see what comes.


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

Actually, there is SATA support for expandable external hard drives.

And I think that you'll be glad that you have the freedom to switch WiFi adapters when the new wireless standards come out in a few years.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

It wouldn't really make sense for Tivo to incorporate WiFi because 802.11g doesn't provide sufficient bandwidth to stream HD in real time (in most scenarios)..

The Series3 does have a 100Mbps ethernet port. Ultimately, the thing to get will be a wireless 802.11n bridge or gaming adapter to plug into the ethernet port. That will provide sufficient bandwidth over wireless to stream HD in realtime.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

BriGuy20 said:


> Actually, there is SATA support for expandable external hard drives.
> 
> And I think that you'll be glad that you have the freedom to switch WiFi adapters when the new wireless standards come out in a few years.


I heard it's not turned on.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

eSATA is NOT enabled in the initial release, it will be enabled later.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

megazone said:


> eSATA is NOT enabled in the initial release, it will be enabled later.


I hope TiVo means later in like 3 months. Not like soon meaning 2008.


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## tunnelengineer (Jul 21, 2006)

get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

it seems like every day someone is craping in your cornflakes.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> 1. No TiVoToGo
> 2. Multi-Room Viewing even if you have both S3?
> 3. No external-SATA hard drive support (not turned on)
> 4. No Built-in WiFi


Actually, those points, in the exact order you listed them, are kind of making me think twice about taking the plunge on the S3 right now.

TTG is important to me. Primarily so I can watch shows on my PC while I'm doing other stuff.

Multi room viewing is important as well. I'm constantly switching between TiVo locations (living room/bedroom).

# 3 and # 4 I could live with if I had to.

In the absence of # 1 and # 2, what this will force me to do is decide IN ADVANCE where I will always watch a recorded show. If I record it on the S3, then I know it has to stay there. No getting it to the PC, no getting it to the bedroom.

I think this may be enough to make me hold off on my purchase.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

#4 is a non-issue, as far as I'm concerned - the TiVo adapter works. That's how my S3 is online.

#3 - eSATA *will* be turned on. There is another release planned for late 2006 to bring the S3 up to feature parity (KidZone, Recently Deleted, etc) - but I'm not sure if this will be in that release or a later one. But it has been stated it will come. (Cue some Mac owner to jump in here and ***** about TTG and promises.)

#1 and #2 - those are iffier. TiVo does want to enable these, and they have many reasons to do so - it is part of what sets them apart from other DVRs - so I'm sure they'll do everything they can do find ways to enable these.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

I have a feeling that number 1 and 2 may be enabled via Telnet. 
But it remains to be seen if the Series 3 is as hackable as previous TiVos.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

No MRV is a dealbreaker for me. Without those features, there is little difference between the S3 and the cable company DVR, except of course the $800.

I think I'll just build a Media Center PC (when Vista is out) and buy an Xbox360 for use as an extender.

Sorry Tivo, but with such a long wait, these things should have already been taken care of.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

My bet is they couldn't get CableLabs certification for the unit with MRV and TTG enabled, or it was going to take forever. So TiVo decided to ship the unit without those functions while they fight with the cable cartel's front about them.

Remember, TiVo needed the CableLab certification, and CableLabs primary job is to ensure that nobody gets certification so there can be no competition for the cable monopolies in your area.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

bdraw said:


> I have a feeling that number 1 and 2 may be enabled via Telnet.
> But it remains to be seen if the Series 3 is as hackable as previous TiVos.


I am confident in saying - no, they aren't. Every generation of TiVo has been less hackable than the last. Every time they revise the box they make it harder - the most recent S2s require hardware hacking to do software mods.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

So when did we find out that the eSata would be inactive. That really bites. So is that something that could be turned on with a software download? Or do you mean early adopters would never have that capability?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jacksonian said:


> So when did we find out that the eSata would be inactive. That really bites. So is that something that could be turned on with a software download? Or do you mean early adopters would never have that capability?


It's a software only issue. Hopefully TiVo has atleast worked out the design so it will not be a long time before its possible. I don't think users are going to be satisfied without expansion capabilities.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

jacksonian said:


> So when did we find out that the eSata would be inactive. That really bites. So is that something that could be turned on with a software download? Or do you mean early adopters would never have that capability?


Offiicially - you all found out today. Those of us with review boxes have known for a few weeks.  It is a software update, it'll be enabled in the future.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

megazone said:


> Offiicially - you all found out today. Those of us with review boxes have known for a few weeks.  It is a software update, it'll be enabled in the future.


While I didn't get a definitive "it will be enabled" answer on the eSATA option, all signs indicated it will be... and sooner rather than later - I'd guess this year. I also assume internal storage can be expanded just as it is with existing models. As far as MRV and TTG support, who knows when or if and in what capacity. :/ It seems like more of a certification/political issue than a technical one.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Well I hope they have MRV. Without that I would need 5 S3 boxes instead of 3.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

davezatz said:


> I also assume internal storage can be expanded just as it is with existing models.


It seems it uses proprietary WD SATA connectors so it may not be so easy.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> Well I hope they have MRV. Without that I would need 5 S3 boxes instead of 3.


There is no MRV at this time.


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

Tivo screwed us.
So were supposed to trust them that all this stuff will be turned on someday? There is no reason for this box to be crippled. It sounds like the MPAA/RIAA and the Cable Companies run Tivo now. This box is still born.


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## skaeight (Jan 20, 2004)

This is making the HR20 look better and better. It sounds like there's about as much of a chance of the HR20 offering "MRV" or "Directv2go" as there is of Tivo enabling these features on the S3.

If they can't get these features enabled on the S3, they are really in trouble. They are tivo's "killer apps." Without them, what differentiates a S3 from a cable/sat proprietary dvr enough to justify $800? Even cable dvrs have firewire ports.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

By the time I got to work today, I'd made up my mind. I flirted with the Buy Tivo ordering page, then when I realized I needed to add the service fee on top of the box totalling nearly $1000 at the lowest rate, I came to the conclusion that $1000 for a TiVo that can't to MRV and TTG just ain't gonna cut it for me right now.

I'll keep watching in standard def until TiVo decides what they are going to do about these features and lowers the price. It's simply not that big of a deal.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Up until today I was all pumped up about the new Series 3 release, but as I read the reviews and realized...

1) It was indeed priced out of my range
2) No MRV with S2 or S3 boxes
3) No TTG
4) No MRV with S2 or S3 boxes

and did I mention no MRV?

I'm kinda in a let down mood at the moment and given that TiVo isn't the one making the decisions about MRV and TTG I'm not optimistic about getting these features back any time soon. For me I will not even consider a TiVo that doesn't let me transfer content around my network to other S2's AND S3's. To me that what makes it TiVo my way.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Any issues with CableLabs should have been clear to TiVo last April (or whenever it was) when the box was certified. The certainly made an effort to set expectations about the price, but not about the feature restrictions.


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## DTSDude (May 24, 2006)

Yup, there it is, in all it's glory. The $800 TiVo that most TiVo lovers will only be able look at when they visit CC and BB. And at no added cost they've released a crippled version of their product in hopes that it'll be out in time to rake in the bucks over the holiday season. (and meet their publicly stated release timeline so wall street doesn't kill them.) Goes to show ya, be careful what you wish for. We all poked and prodded to get this thing released. This is what you end up with.

Sad thing is, I'll end up buying one for christmas.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Are you guys really that surprised that Tivo did the same thing DirecTV did and released the box when it was 75% ready? Would you rather they wait 6 months and then start getting the early bugs reported? The only people that are going to buy an S3 at the current price are the Tivo faithful anyway.


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## skaeight (Jan 20, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> Are you guys really that surprised that Tivo did the same thing DirecTV did and released the box when it was 75% ready? Would you rather they wait 6 months and then start getting the early bugs reported? The only people that are going to buy an S3 at the current price are the Tivo faithful anyway.


The problem with comparison is you can get an HR20 for $299 (possibly less if you do some negotiating) and it's included in the $6 / account dvr fee. S3 weighs in at $800 and $12.95/ month but fails to offer the features that set it appart.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

skaeight said:


> The problem with comparison is you can get an HR20 for $299 (possibly less if you do some negotiating) and it's included in the $6 / account dvr fee.


And you have to agree to a two year DirecTV contract which is going to cost you at least $30/mo. Also when the HR10 was first released it cost $999, so this is actually a step down for a release price.

Dan


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## skaeight (Jan 20, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> And you have to agree to a two year DirecTV contract which is going to cost you at least $30/mo. Also when the HR10 was first released it cost $999, so this is actually a step down for a release price.
> 
> Dan


Um....how much is your cable going to cost you? Also if you want to use the S3, you're pretty much committed to continuing cable. Or are you planning on buying an $800 dvr for stictly OTA use?


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> And you have to agree to a two year DirecTV contract which is going to cost you at least $30/mo.


But you get programming for that price, Dan.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

I also hear there is no MSD for $6.95, is that true!!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The difference is that you have the option to do just OTA if you want to. And for people in larger cities that's actually a viable option as they recieve a ton of channels OTA. (I only get 3 HD channels OTA in my area, so I'll be using cable with mine)

Dan


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

WOW, that's all I can say, to the complainers that would rather watch an overcompressed analog feed than High Definition. PLEASE, don't buy a series3. You don't get it. If tivo2go is more important to you than HD, you should NOT have a series3. Hell, you could keep an old series 2 hanging around for 6.95 a month for that... 

Seems like a great DVR! Hope they work out the kinks to bring even MORE features!


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Uh, no. I think we "complainers" DO get it. We get it perfectly well.

Who says I can't watch TV in high definition? I can. I don't need the S3 for that.

So you can time shift HD content with your HD S3. Congratuations. We're happy for you. In the meantime, I'll keep my $800-$1000 and watch HD in real time until TiVo can deliver the menu of features it's thus far built up an expectation for.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

I'm a little unclear as to *why* the eSATA port is disabled.

They said that MRV/TTG is disabled because they're trying to ensure that they're in compliance with CableCard rules or whatever.

But have they given any explanation as to why eSATA isn't available?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Amnesia said:


> I'm a little unclear as to *why* the eSATA port is disabled.
> 
> They said that MRV/TTG is disabled because they're trying to ensure that they're in compliance with CableCard rules or whatever.
> 
> But have they given any explanation as to why eSATA isn't available?


I would assume the feature just isn't ready. However, I suppose its possible CableLabs has a problem with that too. If that is the case, we may never see it enabled at all. I hope its not the case though.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> WOW, that's all I can say, to the complainers that would rather watch an overcompressed analog feed than High Definition. PLEASE, don't buy a series3. You don't get it. If tivo2go is more important to you than HD, you should NOT have a series3. Hell, you could keep an old series 2 hanging around for 6.95 a month for that...
> 
> Seems like a great DVR! Hope they work out the kinks to bring even MORE features!


Well, first of all, there are more of "us" than there are of "you," and that's going to hurt sales of the new unit. 
Secondly with so many of TiVo's distinct features disabled the S3 really doesn't offer me anything over the Moxi that I currently use. 
Sure the S3 will be more user friendly, but the Moxi doesn't cost $800.

I thought I was going to have a very difficult choice with the $199 Lifetime transfer option expiring in December. Now I know I'll be able to comfortably sit back and let you test the S3 for me, and wait to see if TiVo is able to add distinct features to the box. By then the price will likely be lower anyway.

I'll still time shift HD content, I'll just be doing it cheaper.

I love my 4 TiVo's, but for me the S3 isn't worth the price of admission. 
Believe me, I hope my opinion changes in the near future.


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## skaeight (Jan 20, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> WOW, that's all I can say, to the complainers that would rather watch an overcompressed analog feed than High Definition. PLEASE, don't buy a series3. You don't get it. If tivo2go is more important to you than HD, you should NOT have a series3. Hell, you could keep an old series 2 hanging around for 6.95 a month for that...
> 
> Seems like a great DVR! Hope they work out the kinks to bring even MORE features!


I'm not watching an analog feed, I have directv. No HD yet, but when I cross that bridge I'll be calling Directv up and ordering an HR20. Without MRV and TTG, there is no incentive to pay more for both the box and service.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

i'm with you on the first 3 points.... but you really have to stretch it to give #4 any importance. Built-in WiFi would be an impractical waste of money.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

rainwater said:


> It seems it uses proprietary WD SATA connectors so it may not be so easy.


But it appears that WD does sell that cable, seperate... so you could still take the drive and add it to any SATA connection.

I think worse case, is that you would have to update the cable, if you went with a non-WD drive upgrade path...

That is if software version allows drive upgrades.

After digging around, I think that should be on the lowest parts of the list of concerns about the unit.


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## mearlus (Nov 1, 2004)

I personally don't think Tivo screwed anyone. They released a new product that they could get certified by disabling some of the features. Yes, those features (MRV/Network Transfers) are features I want. This Tivo isn't able to do that (yet) so I wont be purchasing it. Simple. I'm not mad at Tivo, maybe a little disappointed about it but I understand the need/want to get the device on the market sooner rather than wait longer for testing. I definately isn't a cheap box but it does appear to have the ability to do more in the future. I may consider purchasing one when/if MRV/Network Transfers becomes available for it. If it doesn't, oh well. I don't watch HDTV anyways so I'm not heart broken.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I'm very disappointed that the two (maybe three) most desirable features that set TiVo apart from other DVRs (TTG, MRV and possibly expandable HD) seem to be disabled in the Series 3. This will be a tough sell for them IMO...


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> I also hear there is no MSD for $6.95, is that true!!


No, it is not. I have an email direct from TiVo stating MSD DOES apply to the S3.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> But have they given any explanation as to why eSATA isn't available?


Development schedules. It just isn't ready yet and they're not going to hold the launch waiting to finish the work. No reason other than it wasn't seen as a launch critical feature.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

megazone said:


> No, it is not. I have an email direct from TiVo stating MSD DOES apply to the S3.


ok good. I am glad that is still around.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

megazone said:


> So don't buy it and wait to see what comes.


Probably a bad attitude for Tivo to take.

I just can't see how Tivo will be in the stand alone box business three years from now.

Their only future resides in putting their software on boxes owned by cable companies.

This was their last chance in the SA box market and this unit is a real let down.

Value proposition to Joe Cable Subscriber is weak. A few more hours of recording time over the cable company DVR, a better UI over the cable company, all for the low-low price of $800 plus $13.00 a month.

I'd pay $800 for the boxes, but not without MRV.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> ok good. I am glad that is still around.


You just need to buy it at retail or buy it without the service plan it seems.


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## hiddentrout (Feb 1, 2002)

I dusted off a long unused TC account to post my $.o2 here...

I purchased my first Tivo in the fall of 1999 and, for years considered myself a Tivo loyalist. My favorable recommendations (bordering on jubilant lunacy) must have sold 20 - 40 Tivos to friends and family (like most of us here I suspect). As HD has taken over my viewing priority, my last Tivo was shelved over a year ago.

I agree with Spanky...


SpankyInChicago said:


> ...Value proposition to Joe Cable Subscriber is weak. A few more hours of recording time over the cable company DVR, a better UI over the cable company, all for the low-low price of $800 plus $13.00 a month...


As much as I love(d) Tivo, when the original DirecTV HD DVR rolled out at ~$1k, I came to the same conclusion.

$1k for an HD DVR, and (where I live) I'd have to install an OTA antenna and hope my OTA reception was always going to be good in order to receive network HD (which carries 80% of the HD I watch)...OR...

I could switch to cable and lease their HD DVR (the 6412) for ~$10/month.

At that rate, I'd have to keep my Tivo for ~*8 YEARS* to break even over leasing a HD DVR from the cableco. I rarely keep any piece of consumer electronics for 8 years. No dice. I moved to cable and said goodbye to Tivo.

I did anxiously await the S3 boxes but again, for me, the price to value ratio is skewed. So $800 for an S3 box means I'd keep it for ~*7 years* in order to break even over simply leasing my cableco HD DVR at $10/month. That's still a poor value, IMO (and I'd add the Tivo monthly service and the cablecard lease).

I'm not "Joe Consumer," I'm a fairly sophisticated home electronics consumer, but I just don't see Tivo making many inroads with the S3.

The cableco is already providing largely the same functionality and they're doing it for *ZERO up front cost*, and only $10/month.

You've gotta really like the Kool-Aid to get in on the S3 - IMO.


SpankyInChicago said:


> ...I'd pay $800 for the boxes, but not without MRV...


I wouldn't consider $800, as the 6412 is first-gen and comes awfully close to providing the same core functionality as an S3.


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

hiddentrout said:


> I wouldn't consider $800, as the 6412 is first-gen and comes awfully close to providing the same core functionality as an S3.


LAFF!! Same core functionality, perhaps, but the interface on cable PVRS SUCKS!

It's like having 2 girls that are beautiful on the inside, but one's a cow and the other's a supermodel.


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

TiVotion said:


> I came to the conclusion that $1000 for a TiVo that can't to MRV and TTG just ain't gonna cut it for me right now.


$1000 for a TiVo with any feature is out if you ask me. I cant see paying anything like that for simply watching TV.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> Are you guys really that surprised that Tivo did the same thing DirecTV did and released the box when it was 75% ready? Would you rather they wait 6 months and then start getting the early bugs reported?


Yes I *AM* surprised, very surprised.

TiVo should have been working on this product since at least 2001. In fact I'd like to see their original business plan to see if HD was mentioned back in 1997 or whenever.

So, yeah, they've had the better part of a decade to design and build a functional box.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Crrink said:


> the S3 really doesn't offer me anything over the Moxi that I currently use.


Except over twice the recording space. I don't know about you but for me the 11-12 hours of HD the Moxi holds just isn't enough. I always feel like I have to watch everything on that first or run the risk of it getting deleted. The 30-35 hours offered by the S3 will give me a little breathing room, and when the eSATA port comes online I'll be able to add another drive and give myself a whole lot of breathing room.

Dan


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

skaeight said:


> I'm not watching an analog feed, I have directv. No HD yet, but when I cross that bridge I'll be calling Directv up and ordering an HR20. Without MRV and TTG, there is no incentive to pay more for both the box and service.


You're making your point about the series 3 with the HR20?? have you lost your mind? The HR20 shipped with OTA disabled!!

Imagine the uproar if the series3 shipped without OTA enabled???? ROFL

They're IS an incentitive, TiVo is better than the HR20. Dual buffers, true wishlist, season passes, OTA IS ENABLED, HMO and HME WORKS, etc. So what, you can't do MRV or TTG. You can't do that on the HR10 OR the HR20.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Yes I *AM* surprised, very surprised.
> 
> TiVo should have been working on this product since at least 2001. In fact I'd like to see their original business plan to see if HD was mentioned back in 1997 or whenever.
> 
> So, yeah, they've had the better part of a decade to design and build a functional box.


TiVo's original plan, as mentioned in investor reports, was to wait for CableCARD 2.0 so that they could build a box capable of providing all the same features as cable DVRs. However when the FCC granted yet another extension to the cable companies last year they decide to push ahead with a CableCARD 1.0 device. So really the S3 has only been in development for about a year and a half. And considering that no other company has ever developed a device capable of taking two CableCARDs for dual tuner functionality I think that's a pretty impressive turn around.

Dan


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> They're IS an incentitive, TiVo is better than the HR20. Dual buffers, true wishlist, season passes, OTA IS ENABLED, HMO and HME WORKS, etc. So what, you can't do MRV or TTG. You can't do that on the HR10 OR the HR20.


But I can get an HR20 upgrade today for $99 and no additional monthly fee. Are dual buffers, true wishlist, and season passes really worth $800 plus $12.95 a month? Plus the cable card rental fees? I just can't justify it. Especially since I would need two of them for $1600 if I switch from DTV to cable.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> But I can get an HR20 upgrade today for $99 and no additional monthly fee. Are dual buffers, true wishlist, and season passes really worth $800 plus $12.95 a month? Plus the cable card rental fees? I just can't justify it. Especially since I would need two of them for $1600 if I switch from DTV to cable.


I agree, the price point is a bit high. Needs to be in the $500-$600 range.

But, the HR10 with 6.3 should be damn near perfect...


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## skaeight (Jan 20, 2004)

I'm not saying the HR20 is perfect. If all things were equal I would probably choose the Series 3. However, the problem i have with it is cost (equipment and service). As I've stated, I could probably almost justify the cost if it offered all of tivos features. However without them, I just don't feel it's worth it. If they could lower either the upfront cost (which will go down over time) or the monthly cost it might change things.

Oh, the OTA tuners on the HR20 are supposed to be activated soon, probably in October. So that excuse won't work very much longer. That however is a moot point for me, because I'm out of range for OTA reception anyways. I need to wait until directv offers my locals via satelitle, which I was told should happen by the end of the year. 

But again, HD is probably 2 years off for me anyways.


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## hiddentrout (Feb 1, 2002)

BriGuy20 said:


> LAFF!! Same core functionality, perhaps, but the interface on cable PVRS SUCKS!
> 
> It's like having 2 girls that are beautiful on the inside, but one's a cow and the other's a supermodel.


I completely agree. The interface is nowhere *near* as nice as Tivo.

That said, to me, the interface ain't worth $800.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> They're IS an incentitive, TiVo is better than the HR20. Dual buffers, true wishlist, season passes, OTA IS ENABLED, HMO and HME WORKS, etc. So what, you can't do MRV or TTG. You can't do that on the HR10 OR the HR20.


So, you seem real pumped about the S3 and TiVo in general.

You gonna back it up by buying one?


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

I bought a Series 3 today from the TiVo/vip site. No shipping or handling fee; just sales tax added on. It's a bummer that there's no TTG or MRV but I don't have that today on my lousy Motorola DVR anyway, so I lose nothing by replacing it with a box with twice the storage, a nice user interface my wife can use and (hopefully) a siginificant reliability advantage. 

Yeah, $800/box is a lot, but looking back, I paid $1200 for my 57H (early adapter price) plus $300 for lifetime plus $400 for a big disk. And when you have a home theatre environment as I do, that price doesn't seem out of proportion to that already spent on receiver, speakers, chairs, big TV, stand, networking, etc. It's too much for some, but not unreasonable at all for many of us. And I'm looking fooking forward to lots of improvements in the future--I think the odds are extremely good on that happening.


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## hiddentrout (Feb 1, 2002)

retired_guy said:


> ...Yeah, $800/box is a lot, but looking back, I paid $1200 for my 57H (early adapter price) plus $300 for lifetime plus $400 for a big disk. And when you have a home theatre environment as I do, that price doesn't seem out of proportion to that already spent on receiver, speakers, chairs, big TV, stand, networking, etc. It's too much for some, but not unreasonable at all for many of us. And I'm looking fooking forward to lots of improvements in the future--I think the odds are extremely good on that happening.


They'll definitely get that crowd, the early adopters and the choir, I don't think that's a problem.

They'll probably also get the folks for whom another $800 addition to their HTs isn't a substantial investment, but I'm afraid that's not a large enough market segment.

I'm certain though, it'll be a pleasure to own one.

Congrats on your purchase RG.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Except over twice the recording space. I don't know about you but for me the 11-12 hours of HD the Moxi holds just isn't enough. I always feel like I have to watch everything on that first or run the risk of it getting deleted. The 30-35 hours offered by the S3 will give me a little breathing room, and when the eSATA port comes online I'll be able to add another drive and give myself a whole lot of breathing room.
> 
> Dan


Yeah, there is that. 
Right now we only watch must see shows in HD, and we rarely let a must see show go for over a week before we watch. The Moxi is usually big enough to handle our viewing schedule.

We do record a number of second tier (to us) shows that we either watch if we have unexpected free time, or over the summer when everything else is in repeats.

So, definitely an edge to TiVo, but for me, personally, not one worth $800. 
If the S3 remains MRV-less I don't know that I'd buy one at all. That product is not compelling enough over the Moxi to me until probably the $300 price level. No idea if it'll ever see that. 
Add MRV, confirm support for drive upgrades and/or cheap eSATA add-ons, and I'd pay $600. 
I'd need TTG as well to get over the $800 hump - but that's just me. I sincerely hope all you guys who go out and buy these this week enjoy the heck out of them. I just don't think it's going to be a viable product in its current form.

Here's to hoping timely upgrades make this all a moot point.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Except over twice the recording space. I don't know about you but for me the 11-12 hours of HD the Moxi holds just isn't enough. I always feel like I have to watch everything on that first or run the risk of it getting deleted. The 30-35 hours offered by the S3 will give me a little breathing room, and when the eSATA port comes online I'll be able to add another drive and give myself a whole lot of breathing room.


Maybe. Then again, one could just lease a couple more cable DVRs at $10/mo and distribute season passes (or whatever they're called) appropriately. Not as elegant, but financially a slam dunk: $20/mo for the DVRs from the cableco, v. $12.95 from Tivo. So the cable boxes cost $7.05/mo more. At that rate it'll be over 9 years before the costs equalize. And I wouldn't mind stacking a few DVRs in my cabinet at that price difference.

I love my Tivos. I switched to D* specifically because of Tivo. But there's no way I could justify moving to cable and getting these boxes.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

In my area the Moxi boxes cost $16.95/mo, so it would only take about 3.5 years to equalize if you had to pay the full $12.95 to TiVo. If you only have to pay the $6.95 MSD rate then it would only take 2.5 years. And if you did the $199 lifetime transfer it would only be 2.5 years and after that you'd actually be saving $34 per month.

Dan


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

well i guess im going to stick with my comcast dvr's for now. Neither the s3 or hr20 seem to be much better. With no multiroom viewing, 1600 bucks for 2 rooms is too much. it cost me zero to have hd dvr's installed from comcast and i got quoted yesterday 2 hr20-700's for 99 bucks. I was considering going back to satellite, but at this point, i dont see the point.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Why do you need a TiVo for each room? You can install a video distribution system which will broadcast the TiVo video signal throughout your house for a couple hundred bucks. If both rooms have HD there are even devices call baluns which can transmit component video and digital audio over 300' using Cat-5 cable.

My point is multi-room viewing is not the only way to watch TiVo in other rooms.

Dan


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

sounds like alot of work to just want the ability to record shows in a couple rooms in the house, hehe. I have a roommate, thats why i need 2 dvr's. He wants one too obviously.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Why do you need a TiVo for each room? You can install a video distribution system which will broadcast the TiVo video signal throughout your house for a couple hundred bucks. If both rooms have HD there are even devices call baluns which can transmit component video and digital audio over 300' using Cat-5 cable.
> 
> My point is multi-room viewing is not the only way to watch TiVo in other rooms.
> 
> Dan


And what does a solution like _that_ cost?

I have a Tivo in each room NOW. I want to continue this -- or replace it with like functionality. If moving to a S3 means puting in a video distribution system (and, oh by the way, that's no answer because it doesn't give me tuner capability in each room, does it?), I'd rather just build a big myth box and some client boxes for a lot less.

A lot of posts I've seen have been from people talking about one room, or maybe two. Not everyone is in that situation. I have Tivos in four rooms, plus media players in a couple more. The S3, unfortunately, is not a "scalable" solution.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Why do you need a TiVo for each room?


One more thing...historically speaking, any company that asks, "Why would you want to do that?" is headed for trouble. I don't NEED a Tivo in each room. I WANT a Tivo in each room. If I can't have that, then I'll get something else.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Looks like the S3 in it's current form (no TTG, no MRV, no proper unencrypted QAM support, requiring dual cablecards for digital channels, etc.) is really no more capable than the upcoming Tivo/Comcast or Tivo/Cox boxes other than a larger built in hard drive... and that comes at a huge upfront cost. ..hope that changes. For those that do buy this thing you are really a true Tivo fan and please push Tivo to get all the missing functionality in place so that the fan base can be expanded.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cheer said:


> One more thing...historically speaking, any company that asks, "Why would you want to do that?" is headed for trouble. I don't NEED a Tivo in each room. I WANT a Tivo in each room. If I can't have that, then I'll get something else.


I don't actually work for TiVo, it was just my personal suggestion.

What I have now is a setup where all of my TiVos are connected to my main TV AND to my video distribution system. This way I can watch any TiVo I want in any room in the house. I plan to use the same setup for my S3 units at first (I'm getting at least 2) but I'm also thinking about upgrading to a balun type system so I can actually watch HD quality video in all the rooms. Those systems get a little expensive though, so I'll probably wait a bit before I drop more cash on it.

Dan


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

hiddentrout said:


> I wouldn't consider $800, as the 6412 is first-gen and comes awfully close to providing the same core functionality as an S3.


I aggree, The Moto 6412 was introduced about 2 years ago at that!! TiVo should have brought out TiVo with features out of the gate that is leaps and bounds over a Moto box.

In hind sight, TiVo should have had an OTA HD tuner 2 years ago and then made a CableCard one today as they did.


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## echodave (Dec 27, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Why do you need a TiVo for each room?


[chuckle] As someone has already noted, when a company starts asking "why do you want to buy *more* of our products?"...well, that's usually a worrying sign. 

[note: I just saw your reply that you're not actually a Tivo employee...sorry for the misunderstanding on my part...but I'm too lazy to go back and edit this whole post]

Personally, I've got five attached to different tv's in different rooms throughout the house for a couple of reasons:

1) Flexibility. I have five series 2 boxes (not dual tuners...I made it as far as the dvd playing and dvd burning units, but not the dual tuners) because I like being able to have multiple things recording at the same time.

Yes, I realize that the dual-tuner or the series 3 can replicate some of that for me...great, but that's additional cost for current functionality that I already have. Not a value-add.

2) Convenience. If we want to send visiting nieces & nephews down into the basement, great, we always make sure there are a few shows they like on there. Basement's occupied by adults because that's where the bar is? No problem, they're in the front room, too.

No MRV can make this not only a non-value add, but problematic.

3) Safety. I like having one that does nothing but act as a backup and Tivo the same shows as others do in case something goes wrong...and let's face it, sometimes things do go wrong.

4) Options. Basement unit gets shows that I like that the wife doesn't. Front room gets all sorts of Law & Order episodes of various flavors in case nothing's on or someone's sick and is in a L&O mood. Living Room gets the shows we watch together. Salon gets shows that her hair clients like to watch, or that she likes to watch while she's doing someone's hair. Bedroom gets "chill out" shows like Iron Chef or Miami Vice...stuff to fall asleep to.

However, if I can't sleep...heck, pull a South Park episode from the Basement up. Sitting in the living room and want to watch some Law & Order? Pull 'em over from the Front Room. Or, practical example from right now as a matter of fact - father in law calls and asks if you can burn those 9/11 shows you were telling him you tivo'd to a DVD? No problem - undelete them and bring 'em down to the Basement where the standalone DVD burner and the Tivo with the built-in burner are.

Again, no MRV makes this not only non value add to move to the S3, but impossible to make full use of existing functionality.

...and didn't I read somewhere that "recover/undelete" isn't available yet in the S3? Problem #2 with that scenario.



Dan203 said:


> You can install a video distribution system which will broadcast the TiVo video signal throughout your house for a couple hundred bucks.


You can...but again, we're talking about significant extra cost to essentially get back the same functionality you already had, while losing other functionality in the process. Doesn't make sense. You lose having additional tuners in those rooms to watch something live if you want to, etc., ...why have to sacrifice?



Dan203 said:


> If both rooms have HD there are even devices call baluns which can transmit component video and digital audio over 300' using Cat-5 cable.


I'm a geek. I freely admit this. Even still, I don't have a fully wired house. All of my Tivos talk over a wireless network. So this solution requires re-wiring my house? Seems like an awful lot of work you're expecting your customers to go through for a company that sells a product that's supposed to be making life so much easier and better, no? 

...and you still don't have that tuner in the other room, or the ability to then have different things watched in different rooms, etc.



Dan203 said:


> My point is multi-room viewing is not the only way to watch TiVo in other rooms.


Absolutely true...but my point is that for those of us that already have this functionality using your systems, expecting us to jump through hoops and spend more money to keep that same level of service that we've come to expect (and love, and rave, and discuss with friends, and...) from Tivo isn't a great proposition.

It's like having a car that's a year old, and the dealership calling you to tell you that you can have the new model...for another $10,000, but hey, they'll extend that warranty on it...for an extra $1,000 on top of that. Oh, but it won't have cruise control like your current model does. Oh, and it also won't have that nifty navigation system that's saved your butt more than a few times. But don't worry about that stuff...I mean, it's got some *killer* new rims on it, and the suspension and engine have been totally re-tooled to make it ride smoother and faster...how much do you really use cruise control and that navigation system, anyway?

A lot?

Oh.

Well, you can always go out and buy a portable navigation system that you can put in there, and it'll be just like it was before! Or heck, just use Mapquest and print things off before you leave! It's the same thing, right?

And you can jerry-rig a piece of wood and some duct-tape to hold the accelerator down for you!

...oh, and if you decide to go down the street and get that same new model for only $5000 from someone other than the original selling dealer...well, then you can't get that extended warranty offer...you're totally on your own.

Think you're going to go running to the dealership? Not likely. You also might be so annoyed that you never buy another car from that dealership again, either.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that this isn't coming across as very well thought out, that's all.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> But I can get an HR20 upgrade today for $99 and no additional monthly fee. Are dual buffers, true wishlist, and season passes really worth $800 plus $12.95 a month? Plus the cable card rental fees? I just can't justify it. Especially since I would need two of them for $1600 if I switch from DTV to cable.


Everybody's case is different. You already paid a big chunk for your HR10, so getting an upgrade to the HR20 is relatively cheap.

Your total investment to get the HR20 is more than the series 3, if you bought it when it first came out.

For you, since you've already invested a lot, the series 3 isn't a good deal.

For others, without any HD PVR, it might be worth it.

-smak-


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## skaeight (Jan 20, 2004)

The problem is it seems like TiVo is a religion to some, and not a piece of electronics.


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## echodave (Dec 27, 2005)

skaeight said:


> The problem is it seems like TiVo is a religion to some, and not a piece of electronics.


I'll be the first one to admit that I drank the Kool-Aid and was going door to door asking people if they'd been saved yet and handing them Tivo literature asking if they'd heard the good news.

This series 3 stuff has been a major deprogramming session though.


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## philconners (Jan 4, 2005)

Bottom line for me, this box was touted as a high end device which would be the top end of the Tivo world. Now it doesn't even offer all of the functionality that the cheapest Tivo boxes offer. I love Tivo and have stood by them, but at $799 this is weak. Hopefully they will be quick to add the MRV and Tivo To Go.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

I'm so totally bummed by this it's not even funny. I can see no MRV for HD content (unless it was series 3 to series 3), but to TOTALLY disable it all together? Gimme a break. Total cave in to the the MPAA/RIAA, etc.

So now I have to use my series 2 and record analog cable to do TTG (or go and rent a digital STB--yes, the digital channels DO look better than the analog ones--even on a Tivo). So let's see, spend $800 plus another $200 (since now you can't transfer lifetime if you don't buy direct from Tivo) plus $3.50 for two cable cards AND then I still have to rent a STB so I can do MRV and TTG?

So what's the point if I still have to rent the stupid cable box? 

Tivo really screwed up on this one.

And I REALLY wanted one. Guess I'll just live with the crappy Cable dvr until Verizon FIOS comes in and I can use the motorola unit.

If it had TTG and MRV, I probably would've bitten the bullet (even though our local TW is doing SDV and will probably expand it to more channels soon).


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> And you have to agree to a two year DirecTV contract which is going to cost you at least $30/mo.
> 
> Dan


Hmm. I must have missed the notice from my cable company about cable being free once I get a series 3.


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo's original plan, as mentioned in investor reports, was to wait for CableCARD 2.0 so that they could build a box capable of providing all the same features as cable DVRs. However when the FCC granted yet another extension to the cable companies last year they decide to push ahead with a CableCARD 1.0 device. So really the S3 has only been in development for about a year and a half. And considering that no other company has ever developed a device capable of taking two CableCARDs for dual tuner functionality I think that's a pretty impressive turn around.
> 
> Dan


This is completely false. They just took the box they were already working on and conformed it to the cablecard 1.0 standards. If your scenario is to be believed it would mean Tivo was not working on anything between 2001 and 2004.


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> In my area the Moxi boxes cost $16.95/mo, so it would only take about 3.5 years to equalize if you had to pay the full $12.95 to TiVo. If you only have to pay the $6.95 MSD rate then it would only take 2.5 years. And if you did the $199 lifetime transfer it would only be 2.5 years and after that you'd actually be saving $34 per month.
> 
> Dan


I am missing something. The difference 16.95 and 12.95 is $4. Tivo $800 upfront cost. Moxi $0. That 16 years to break even
$4 x 192 months = $800


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

bidger said:


> So, you seem real pumped about the S3 and TiVo in general.
> 
> You gonna back it up by buying one?


I am pumped. But, I don't have that kind of discretionary money to spend on this as I a have a family and my wife doesn't work. Maybe if the prices drops in 6-12 months and I come up with some dough, sure.

But, it's also a tough choice to abandoned my HR10 if it's getting 6.3. 99% of HD I watch is OTA, so it really doesn't does everything I need. Once I can't use my HR10 to do what I need, it will be the Series3, NOT the HR20.

Just because I'm not as wealthy as some doesn't prove that I don't think it's an awesome device! If I had the money, sure I would buy one! I think lots of things are cool that I can't afford...

My Dad just ordered one! He's super pumped, he's got a series2 with lifetime, analog cable and watches HD OTA. He say the option to continue lifetime and jumped on it, he's very excited to be able to finally record HD!


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## lowepg (Sep 21, 2005)

BriGuy20 said:


> LAFF!! Same core functionality, perhaps, but the interface on cable PVRS SUCKS!
> 
> It's like having 2 girls that are beautiful on the inside, but one's a cow and the other's a supermodel.


ok - THAT'S a funny analogy! :up:


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