# It's 2014. Can we buy Cablecards yet?



## plazman30 (Jan 23, 2005)

I'm renting 2 cablecards from Verizon at $4.99/each. I just want to buy the thing and be done with it.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

nope


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Why would they want to do that? They have to support it and it generates revenue far in excess of its cost at retail.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jrtroo said:


> Why would they want to do that? They have to support it and it generates revenue far in excess of its cost at retail.


You can purchase your own modem and save a monthly charge, you can't purchase a cable card (or the cable co.s cable box) on most MSO because of security and head end issues.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I wish.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

lessd said:


> You can purchase your own modem and save a monthly charge, you can't purchase a cable card (or the cable co.s cable box) on most MSO because of security and head end issues.


Only 2 companies manufacture CableCards (Cisco and Motorola) so your cable company can just tell you which one you need to buy for your service address. And I really don't see what security issues there would really be. A CableCard is probably less hackable than a cable modem, and you can buy those at retail and use them on the cable companies networks.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Only 2 companies manufacture CableCards (Cisco and Motorola) so your cable company can just tell you which one you need to buy for your service address. And I really don't see what security issues there would really be. A CableCard is probably less hackable than a cable modem, and you can buy those at retail and use them on the cable companies networks.


Most cable co have an inventory system of their equipment, they don't want the expense of adding new numbers, although Cable Card are not two way the MSO does know when you have one in the system as they can get feedback from each cable card, I know this because of a problem I puled the CC out of my TiVo and the person on the phone told me I just removed the CC from their system, they also knew when I put it back into the TiVo.

How would one hack a modem as it is on or off, a cable card is off but never just on, its activated with just the ch you are paying to receive, modems can be activated without a phone call (at least with Comcast CT).


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

lessd said:


> modems can be activated without a phone call (at least with Comcast CT).


And CableCards can be paired without a phone call (at least on FiOS). I really don't see much of a difference between the 2.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Modems need replacing from time to time, so their pricing folks probably modeled that out somehow to allow for user ownership (and how many actually do this? I'm the only one I know). Cablecards are hardly touched. Once paid for, they are a small cash register.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

jrtroo said:


> Modems need replacing from time to time, so their pricing folks probably modeled that out somehow to allow for user ownership (and how many actually do this? I'm the only one I know). Cablecards are hardly touched. Once paid for, they are a small cash register.


The FCC should have regulations that require cable companies to allow users to buy their own modems and CableCards just like the regs they have to allow users to purchase their own set-top boxes at retail.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The purpose of CableCARDs is to allow you to buy your own STB at retail. The FCC imposes price limits on the monthly rental cost of a CC. ($3 max I believe)

However both MSOs and CE makers have come to the conclusion that CCs are a PITA so the successor will likely be a downloadable security system with no monthly fee at all. The big question is whether there will be an industry standard or if each MSO will use it's own system making it so devices have to be MSO specific or spend extra R&D to make their products universal.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> The FCC should have regulations that require cable companies to allow users to buy their own modems and CableCards just like the regs they have to allow users to purchase their own set-top boxes at retail.


What cable set top boxes can you purchase that don't require a Cable Card and activation??


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

lessd said:


> What cable set top boxes can you purchase that don't require a Cable Card and activation??


Um, none. I never said there were. All cable set-top boxes have CableCards in them that require activation, whether MSO rented or purchased at retail. That is the universal security standard for cable boxes in this country.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

tarheelblue32 said:


> The FCC should have regulations that require cable companies to allow users to buy their own modems and CableCards.


DITTO:up:

Soon I bet Verizon, Comcast, Cox etc demands to enter our homes to see how many minis we have so they can multiply or cable card charge "appropriately". Greedy SOBs.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> The purpose of CableCARDs is to allow you to buy your own STB at retail. The FCC imposes price limits on the monthly rental cost of a CC. ($3 max I believe)


You apparently didn't read the original post, where the person is being charged $4.99/cablecard.

Others have quoted the FCC documents, and IIRC it says they can charge a "reasonable" amount.

You also _may_ get a "customer owned equipment" credit, if you have your own DVR, and your plan would normally have a "free" (included) DVR.

I wish you could own it too.. and in the past (someone did mention 'most' cable companies in this thread) there was someone who posted here that HAD to buy their cable cards, at IIRC something like $150 each.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah some small cable companies make you buy them. I thought there was an actual max price, not just "reasonable". Although cable companies get around that by charging "outlet fees" and the like.


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## modnar (Oct 15, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah some small cable companies make you buy them. I thought there was an actual max price, not just "reasonable". Although cable companies get around that by charging "outlet fees" and the like.


Yes, my cable company requires you to buy the card for $70. I'd much rather rent one because if something does happen to the card, you have to pay to replace it.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

modnar said:


> Yes, my cable company requires you to buy the card for $70. I'd much rather rent one because if something does happen to the card, you have to pay to replace it.


At $7.45/month I would take that 9 month chance, once activated I have never had one go bad, I have had some that could not be activated over the phone, needed a tech to come out. My cable cards are about 4 to 5 years old, $70 would have been a great deal in place of $7.45/month. (Comcast CT)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I did have a CableCARD go bad once after several years of use, so it is possible. Also you're at the mercy of the cable co when it comes to firmware updates so if they update the firmware and it messes something up it doesn't matter if you own or rent it's still on you.

That being said my cable company only charges $2.50/mo so it's really not a big deal. The payback on buying one for $70 would be almost 2.5 years. But if they were charging $8/mo I might think differently.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> I did have a CableCARD go bad once after several years of use, so it is possible. Also you're at the mercy of the cable co when it comes to firmware updates so if they update the firmware and it messes something up it doesn't matter if you own or rent it's still on you.
> 
> That being said my cable company only charges $2.50/mo so it's really not a big deal. The payback on buying one for $70 would be almost 2.5 years. But if they were charging $8/mo I might think differently.


I agree, it cost per month and the cost of the cable card, if you could purchase a cable card for $25 I am sure you would do it to save $2.5/month.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I would. When they raised the price of my cable modem from $5/mo to $7/mo I started looking at buying my own and realized I could do so for $75 so I did. < year payback is my threshold.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

My CableCARDs are $5 a month. There is an effort FINALLY going on to implement secured access without a card. Tivo and Comcast are working on it.

http://www.multichannel.com/news/tv-apps/comcast-tivo-working-non-cablecard-approach/375989


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Good maybe if they come up with a good solution the other MSOs will use it too.


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## dcline414 (May 1, 2014)

Charter used to give cable modems for free. Now they lease them for free, but I still have two of the ones they gave us.

Of course that just means the cost is included in the service price, even if you buy your own. Charter also will no longer allow you to bring your own modem when starting new service.

If cable cards become free (or go away) the cost of connecting third party devices like Tivo will just get buried in the total service price, and then you'll pay whether you bring your own equipment or use theirs.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> I would. When they raised the price of my cable modem from $5/mo to $7/mo I started looking at buying my own and realized I could do so for $75 so I did. < year payback is my threshold.


I purchase Lifetime TiVo service, the payback is more than a year, I think you also pay for Lifetime TiVo Service.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

lessd said:


> At $7.45/month I would take that 9 month chance, once activated I have never had one go bad, I have had some that could not be activated over the phone, needed a tech to come out. My cable cards are about 4 to 5 years old, $70 would have been a great deal in place of $7.45/month. (Comcast CT)


Les,

Your bill shows $7.45 for the CableCard itself? Our Comcast franchise charges $1.00 for additional CableCards (1st one free and I have 3 more with 2 original S3 TiVo for a total of $3.00 next to the CableCard line).

I thought Comcast in general had decent CableCard rental costs across the board.

Scott


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

jrtroo said:


> Modems need replacing from time to time, so their pricing folks probably modeled that out somehow to allow for user ownership (and how many actually do this? I'm the only one I know). Cablecards are hardly touched. Once paid for, they are a small cash register.


Comcast is up to $8/mo for hardware that costs ~$60 at retail. RIP OFF. Cable modems can last a decade or more, depending on the technology used. They're good at least for a few years.



lessd said:


> My cable cards are about 4 to 5 years old, $70 would have been a great deal in place of $7.45/month. (Comcast CT)


You get one for free, so if you do a 4- or 6-tuner setup with Minis, no extra monthly fees!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

HerronScott said:


> Les,
> 
> Your bill shows $7.45 for the CableCard itself? Our Comcast franchise charges $1.00 for additional CableCards (1st one free and I have 3 more with 2 original S3 TiVo for a total of $3.00 next to the CableCard line).
> 
> ...


Comcast in my area (CT) just added the AO charge ($7.45/month) for each Cable Card after the first cable card (that one is free).
I use to pay $1.00/month per card without any AO charge.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> The purpose of CableCARDs is to allow you to buy your own STB at retail. *The FCC imposes price limits on the monthly rental cost of a CC.* ($3 max I believe)


No, they don't. They only say the rentals should be reasonable, and Comcast completely gets around that by imposing bogus A/O fees. FCC complaints about this practice have gone nowhere (mine included).

And OP why does it matter that it's now 2014? The cableCos are trying to get rid of cards, not trying to make them cheaper or easier for folks to use.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lessd said:


> I purchase Lifetime TiVo service, the payback is more than a year, I think you also pay for Lifetime TiVo Service.


Lifetime service adds resale value, so the payback is really not that much. If you look at a 3 year old Premiere unit with lifetime and without. The one without is basically worthless, you might get $50 for it. The one with lifetime is worth at least $250. So that adds $200 to the value by paying $400 for lifetime. Now MSD service is $12.95/mo so that's about a 16 month payback. Actually less if you sell sooner before something better is available.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Lifetime service adds resale value, so the payback is really not that much. If you look at a 3 year old Premiere unit with lifetime and without. The one without is basically worthless, you might get $50 for it. The one with lifetime is worth at least $250. So that adds $200 to the value by paying $400 for lifetime. Now MSD service is $12.95/mo so that's about a 16 month payback. Actually less if you sell sooner before something better is available.


I agree, but still people use monthly.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The cost of lifetime for a new owner is $500, add that to a minimum of $200 for a new TiVo and it's quite an expensive purchase. I think most people pay monthly because it's cheaper up front, not because it makes long term financial sense.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

lessd said:


> I agree, but still people use monthly.


Because people don't do cost/benefit analysis.. in general...


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

mattack said:


> Because people don't do cost/benefit analysis.. in general...


Shhh, don't tell economists that. You will destroy their dreamworld.


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## Fielding (May 28, 2010)

$7.45 for a cable card seems like a rip..!!


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, it is.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> The cost of lifetime for a new owner is $500, add that to a minimum of $200 for a new TiVo and it's quite an expensive purchase. I think most people pay monthly because it's cheaper up front, not because it makes long term financial sense.


Typical American short term thinking.


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## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

Bigg said:


> Typical American short term thinking.


Many people may not be able to afford the upfront lifetime cost, but are able to swing the monthly fee.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

FitzAusTex said:


> Many people may not be able to afford the upfront lifetime cost, but are able to swing the monthly fee.


If that's the case then they should save up and buy lifetime when they have enough. We, unfortunately, live in a culture where it's become all about the payment. So many people live right on the razors edge because they spend every dime they make on payments and never learn to save.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> If that's the case then they should save up and buy lifetime when they have enough. We, unfortunately, live in a culture where it's become all about the payment. So many people live right on the razors edge because they spend every dime they make on payments and never learn to save.


Agree!
When I gave a raise to one of my managers he went out and borrowed the amount he could with easy monthly payments = to the increase in his take home pay, changing his raise into a bonus, you can't live other peoples lives.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> If that's the case then they should save up and buy lifetime when they have enough. We, unfortunately, live in a culture where it's become all about the payment. So many people live right on the razors edge because they spend every dime they make on payments and never learn to save.


Yup. Exactly.



lessd said:


> Agree!
> When I gave a raise to one of my managers he went out and borrowed the amount he could with easy monthly payments = to the increase in his take home pay, changing his raise into a bonus, you can't live other peoples lives.


Wow, that's pretty bad! And he'll pay for whatever he bought with that several times over!


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## HoosontheTeevo (Feb 9, 2015)

Any chance Tivo owners will be able to buy our own cablecard anytime soon? Wasn't there legislation supporting allowing consumers to purchase their own set top boxes (and shouldn't that include the ability to buy a cablecard)?

I don't understand forced rental of equipment. We already pay for the cable/internet service - the equipment should be buy-able. Verizon fios charges $4.99 per month. That's $300 for 5 years. unacceptable.

THis site appears to indicate that when you purchase one of their DVR's it includes the cablecard? Would Verizon or Comcast activate this?

Digital Cable Box and Modems | Stop renting and buy your own!


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

HoosontheTeevo said:


> Any chance Tivo owners will be able to buy our own cablecard anytime soon? Wasn't there legislation supporting allowing consumers to purchase their own set top boxes (and shouldn't that include the ability to buy a cablecard)?
> 
> I don't understand forced rental of equipment. We already pay for the cable/internet service - the equipment should be buy-able. Verizon fios charges $4.99 per month. That's $300 for 5 years. unacceptable.


I'm not an expert on this but I think that "you can buy your own box" assumes that you get a cable card from your cable company. That is what the cable cards are for. That is what TiVos are. Set top boxes that we buy. Cable cards are what allows the cable companies to control their content (and charge us money which is what they care about).


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## HoosontheTeevo (Feb 9, 2015)

jakerock said:


> I'm not an expert on this but I think that "you can buy your own box" assumes that you get a cable card from your cable company. That is what the cable cards are for. That is what TiVos are. Set top boxes that we buy. Cable cards are what allows the cable companies to control their content (and charge us money which is what they care about).


thanks - but that's the same logic they would use to say "you have to rent our cable box to use our service".

The service is the service - the cablecard - like the cablebox (replaced by our tivos) is equipment. they are forcing us to rent it - and we should have the option to buy it. this is 'Merica dammit! 

look at all these cablecards for sale.
these are pieces of equipment we should be able to buy and pair with our tivo boxes...

cablecard | eBay


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Doesn't really matter at this point. The MSOs have convinced the FCC that apps for devices like Roku and AppleTV are suitable replacements for CableCARDs. So in the coming years it's likely that CableCARDs are going to get harder to aquire, not easier.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

HoosontheTeevo said:


> thanks - but that's the same logic they would use to say "you have to rent our cable box to use our service".
> 
> The service is the service - the cablecard - like the cablebox (replaced by our tivos) is equipment. they are forcing us to rent it - and we should have the option to buy it. this is 'Merica dammit!
> 
> ...


 Ebay? take your wallet and run. These are unauthorized devices you or your cable company may never get working right.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Your cable company wont even try. Maybe if you have a small regional company, but none of the big ones will activate a CableCARD that you didn't rent from them.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> Your cable company wont even try. Maybe if you have a small regional company, but none of the big ones will activate a CableCARD that you didn't rent from them.


Quite true. I have bought two from eBay. One did nothing. Its part number was -002- and my Premiere didn't even see it. I bought another, part number -018-, which the Premiere could see, but not use. I think it has to be -017- or higher.

When provisioning the cable card, the MSO has the card in its database already. Not there? Forget it.

Three of those on eBay are -018-. The reset seem to be -002-. Only $10.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Without activation the only thing a CableCARD can do is provide the TiVo with a channel map. Even then it has to be a make/model that is compatible with your cable companies equipment and you'll only be able to tune unecrypted channels. (most have gone full encryption these days, so that could be nothing)


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> Without activation the only thing a CableCARD can do is provide the TiVo with a channel map. Even then it has to be a make/model that is compatible with your cable companies equipment and you'll only be able to tune unecrypted channels. (most have gone full encryption these days, so that could be nothing)


I've heard that. It seems like a very lucky person to have the same VCT as the original owner.

My cable feed is so small that even premium channels are not copy protected. But everything (almost) is encrypted. I still have two clear QAM channels.

Every three months or so, my feed has clear Premium weekends. All they do is remove encryption. The channel map is already loaded. I can even do a channel scan on my TV and get them. It reminds me why I don't pay for them.


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