# Schedule conflicts because of odd-minute ending times...



## InspectorGadget

Has anyone noticed shows that end on xx:02 conflict with a show on another channel starting at xx:00 or xx:01? ABC and NBC seem to be in a schedule war to prevent people from switching or something stupid like that.

Gray's Anatomy Thursday ABC 9:00 PM - 10:02 PM
ER Thursday NBC 10:01 PM - 11:00 PM

One time they moved ER to start at 10:02 PM, and on that week ABC shoved in some more ads to make Gray's Anatomy end at 10:04 PM.

My 2-tuner TiVo is down and I need to record all these shows on the single-tuner unit. The TiVo software won't let you START a show one minute later, only end it later. And it won't let you END a show one minute earlier.

AAARGGGGHH!

I did a quick search and didn't see any discussion about this. Has it been discussed? Hasn't anyone else noticed this?


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## CrashHD

I've noticed that too. I haven't had any conflicts yet that resulted in a missed recording, though. It's kind of odd, that the networks complain dvrs hurt their ad viewership, and yet here their jockeying for position to get their show recorded while blocking another network's show...go figure.


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## InspectorGadget

I guess I gotta get my SAT-T60 working again!


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## dansee

This is beginning to drive me insane... I have conflicts three nights a week, and have to choose what gets recorded in HD, and what does not, all because of those idiotic 1-2 minute overruns.

It's infuriating.


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## phox_mulder

3 HD DVR's each with 2 tuners really helps in these situations.

I can set aside 1 tuner for each OTA Networks primetime and still have one or two left for the occasional Cable Network.


phox


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## mattack

InspectorGadget said:


> I did a quick search and didn't see any discussion about this. Has it been discussed? Hasn't anyone else noticed this?


sorry, it's been discussed for *years*. (I finally have 2 2-tuner Tivos and mostly don't have to deal with the problem.)

I call it "the er problem" because that's what it started with, or at least what I first noticed it with. Back then, 'er' got good ratings and started at 9:59, and ran into CSI.

You can turn on clipping, so your shows will allow cut off of up to 5 minutes at the beginning or end. You can also do manual recordings, e.g. from 10:05-11pm, with 4 minutes of start padding.

Unfortunately NEITHER of those will work on S1s, since S1s only allow 1,2,3,5,higher amounts of padding (i.e. not 4 mins exactly).


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## InspectorGadget

Yeah, I'm constantly deprecated having two S1's with lifetime subs. And the worst thing about that now is that TiVo constantly hits my SAT-T60 with software "updates" that trash my LBA48 big drive, even though these "updates" have nothing really useful in them.

I always get screwed being an early adopter...


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## jeff125va

I think of it now as the Grey's Anatomy problem since ONE extra minute wasn't enough for them and they to push the envelope and go to 10:02. ER had actually just made things easier by going from 9:59 all the way to 10:01, then GA had to screw it all up again.

The main reason they do this though is not just to keep viewers from switching, it's to sell additional air time during the higher-rated shows. But that doesn't necessarily go hand-in-hand with the _published_ start and end times. CBS has essentially been doing the same thing with CSI and Without A Trace (and Shark last season) for several years. The first minute of the WAT recording is a commercial and then the credits/previews for CSI. But the guide data has them starting and ending on the hour.


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## tivogurl

If you think that's bad, check out NBC on Monday Nights:

Heroes 9:00-10:02
Journeyman 10:01-11:00

Yes, they are intentionally scheduling overlap _on their own shows_.


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## GoAWest

tivogurl said:


> If you think that's bad, check out NBC on Monday Nights:
> 
> Heroes 9:00-10:02
> Journeyman 10:01-11:00
> 
> Yes, they are intentionally scheduling overlap _on their own shows_.


This is being discussed in another thread (but this one is more appropriate).

Why would they do that (on purpose) on the same network? Since the two shows are on the same network, all this would do on a non-overlap-capable DVR is block one of their own two shows. On TiVos with overlap it's less of an issue although you might miss a minute of the later show or find it at the end of the previous show recording.

Even if they wanted to run a more popular show long (more commercials) it seems like they'd want correct guide data times for their own second show. Running long to bump another show on another network would make sense, but I can't think of a good reason (other than a guide mistake--do you really think it's "intentional"??) why they would do it on their own network with obviously wrong guide data.


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## InspectorGadget

If I were a suspicious kind of guy I'd venture to say that the networks were under pressure from the advertisers to screw up as many DVRs as possible.


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## jeff125va

How do you know that it's intentional?


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## tivogurl

jeff125va said:


> How do you know that it's intentional?


It still hasn't been fixed despite my numerous complaints, and I doubt I'm the only person who complained. It's been more than a month since my first, plenty of time to fix it, if you really want to.


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## bicker

That doesn't indicate it is intentional. More likely, that indicates that it just isn't important to enough people.


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## jeff125va

Or they could just be idiots.


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## GoAWest

jeff125va said:


> Or they could just be idiots.


Since all they're doing with *this* (Heros/JM on same network) guide error is screwing their own viewers and shows rather than messing up shows on other networks, Occam's razor suggests this is the better explaination...


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## InspectorGadget

In my 48 years of watching TV I've never seen such idiocy with time schedules. I've seen the programming not respect the published schedules, seen them overrun or underrun the times with the actual program, but NEVER saw crazy scheduled times until this year.

For them to go to the effort and volition to publish such weird times, I think there has to be some reason for it, not just idiocy.

DVR's are a big pimple on the a** of advertisers. Anything that can be done to prevent people from recording is a BIG benefit to advertisers. The stupid overlapping times prevent recording.

To "GoAWest": If you think about it, the overlapping times on the same network DOESN'T screw the people who are just watching, only the ones who are recording. Occams razor in this case suggests the better explanation is that they are TRYING to mess up recording.


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## GoAWest

InspectorGadget said:


> To "GoAWest": If you think about it, the overlapping times on the same network DOESN'T screw the people who are just watching, only the ones who are recording. Occams razor in this case suggests the better explanation is that they are TRYING to mess up recording.


I'd buy "TRYING to mess up recording" for network-A messing up network-B (e.g. ABC's Grey's Anatomy running *really* long, 8min, to block recording of NBC's ER). But I still don't think it makes sense for a network to do that (with faulty/overlapped guide data--it's "OK" if one show runs long if its own next show's guide data runs short) to its own shows.

In the case of the Heros/Journeyman example (*if* having faulty guide data rather than just "shifted" long/short data), both on the same network, my TiVo's overlap protection handles it OK so I don't miss anything or, worst-case, the first or last few minutes of a show. But if overlap didn't handle it (no overlap, or overlap > TiVo 5-min limit), I'd just miss one of the shows. This happens now when two desired shows fully overlap as I pick one and don't watch the other.

And who loses if I don't watch a show?--me (sort of...) by not watching the show, but also the *advertisers* by having me and others miss the entire show, commercials and all, both live and one+ times later. I'm probably watching or at least sampling *more* shows (watched odd times & dates, days/weeks/months after airing) since I have two TiVos in my house, but I'll certainly watch less if shows just don't record.

Make me not use a recording device (a VCR if not a TiVo)--fat chance. I'm often not home or rarely watching TV during the 8PM-11PM prime-time window, and I'm not going to rush home or skip work or more important family things for this stuff.


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## scandia101

"Overlap Protection"


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## mattack

InspectorGadget said:


> In my 48 years of watching TV I've never seen such idiocy with time schedules. I've seen the programming not respect the published schedules, seen them overrun or underrun the times with the actual program, but NEVER saw crazy scheduled times until this year.


Again, 'er' was doing it for a few years.. (i.e. 9:59 start time in the schedule). For at least one year before that, they *were* starting early but didn't officially say that.

Now (I suspect because its ratings have dropped), they're actually starting at 10:01.


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## InspectorGadget

What's overlap protection? I'm a hapless early adopter with only Series-1 equipment.


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## jeff125va

InspectorGadget said:


> In my 48 years of watching TV I've never seen such idiocy with time schedules. I've seen the programming not respect the published schedules, seen them overrun or underrun the times with the actual program, but NEVER saw crazy scheduled times until this year.
> 
> For them to go to the effort and volition to publish such weird times, I think there has to be some reason for it, not just idiocy.
> 
> DVR's are a big pimple on the a** of advertisers. Anything that can be done to prevent people from recording is a BIG benefit to advertisers. The stupid overlapping times prevent recording.
> 
> To "GoAWest": If you think about it, the overlapping times on the same network DOESN'T screw the people who are just watching, only the ones who are recording. Occams razor in this case suggests the better explanation is that they are TRYING to mess up recording.


Are you talking about overlapping shows on the same channel or just the :59's and :01's and :02's in general?

They're starting to track DVR viewing now for ratings purposes. So no, preventing people from recording is no benefit to advertisers whatsoever. I'm sure they'd rather have people _maybe_ see their ads even if it's not live than be 100% certain that they won't see them at all ever. Especially with all the product placements within the shows.

IMHO, the by far primary reason they do this is to increase ad revenues. If they can charge an additional $100,000 (or whatever) per ad minute during the 9:00 show than during the 10:00 show, that's all the incentive the networks need to make the 9:00 show run until 10:01 or 10:02. DVR users are still a small percentage of overall viewers. And it just makes no sense to try to prevent people from recording stuff because the other network could counteract the efforts by aligning their start/end times. I think they just lengthen the show because of the advertising rates, and some of them have gone ahead and published the actual starting time for _the benefit_ (with some unintended negative consequences) of DVR users. Some, like CBS (CSI and WAT, for example) haven't bothered putting out the correct start/end times but they sure as heck have the extra minute of commercials during the higher-rated CSI.


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## Jonathan_S

InspectorGadget said:


> What's overlap protection? I'm a hapless early adopter with only Series-1 equipment.


It's a feature TiVo added semi-recently (within the last year or so) to try to cut down on losing entire shows due to a short overlap.

If enabled, when two shows overlap for less that 5 minutes total, the lower priority show (on the Season Pass Manager) will not record during the time the two shows overlap.

So you miss up to 5 minutes of your lower priority show, but still get the bulk of it.


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## maryasparky

Recently it was advertised that the final show of Batchellor would air at 2:35 am - due to scheduling conflicts with ball games, etc. Since I had followed it all season - I had to be sure I saw the ending. So the TIVO was set - however after getting off my 12 hour shift at the hospital and coming home - I was afraid that everyone would be talking about the final decision - so I stayed up to watch it even though it was set to TIVO. Imagine my surprise when it did not come on at scheduled - but a full 23 minutes later - which had I not been up to see it live - I would have totally missed the ending of the show - which I had waited all season to see. This is very frustrating that shows are not on as scheduled - and you can depend on whether or not they will be TIVO'd on time or if you will miss part of the beginning - or the end. A tighter rope on the start and end times needs to be enforced. Afterall - that is why we use TIVO - to make sure we don't miss something we want to see. Some of us have to work at hours when something is on that we really want to see - so we depend on it being there when we are off work so we can catch up with the show.


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## InspectorGadget

Jonathan_S said:


> It's a feature TiVo added semi-recently (within the last year or so) to try to cut down on losing entire shows due to a short overlap.
> 
> If enabled, when two shows overlap for less that 5 minutes total, the lower priority show (on the Season Pass Manager) will not record during the time the two shows overlap.
> 
> So you miss up to 5 minutes of your lower priority show, but still get the bulk of it.


That's GREAT! So is that a Series2/3 thing? Or G*d forbid did they accidentally put something useful in the Series1 3.5c update they just forced on me?


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## tivogurl

InspectorGadget said:


> That's GREAT! So is that a Series2/3 thing? Or G*d forbid did they accidentally put something useful in the Series1 3.5c update they just forced on me?


Go to Settings/Recording Settings and see if you have an item titled Overlap Protection.


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## jeff125va

maryasparky said:


> Recently it was advertised that the final show of Batchellor would air at 2:35 am - due to scheduling conflicts with ball games, etc. Since I had followed it all season - I had to be sure I saw the ending. So the TIVO was set - however after getting off my 12 hour shift at the hospital and coming home - I was afraid that everyone would be talking about the final decision - so I stayed up to watch it even though it was set to TIVO. Imagine my surprise when it did not come on at scheduled - but a full 23 minutes later - which had I not been up to see it live - I would have totally missed the ending of the show - which I had waited all season to see. This is very frustrating that shows are not on as scheduled - and you can depend on whether or not they will be TIVO'd on time or if you will miss part of the beginning - or the end. A tighter rope on the start and end times needs to be enforced. Afterall - that is why we use TIVO - to make sure we don't miss something we want to see. Some of us have to work at hours when something is on that we really want to see - so we depend on it being there when we are off work so we can catch up with the show.


If the show was rescheduled because of a game, I'm guessing that the game ran late, pushing the local news back, etc. etc., pushing the delayed airing of the Bachelor later as well. I'm guessing from your location that this was last Monday night when Tennessee on Monday Night Football and it was simulcast on your local ABC affiliate. For future reference, if a show is rescheduled due to a game earlier in the evening, be sure to add padding to your show because it's likely to run over. There's no way to put a tighter rope on the start and end times of a sporting event.


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## InspectorGadget

tivogurl said:


> Go to Settings/Recording Settings and see if you have an item titled Overlap Protection.


I have no "Settings" or "Recording Settings."

I have "Messages and Setup", and the only reasonable things under that are "My Preferences" and "Recorder&Phone Setup." Unfortunately, the latter only has phone-call settings and input settings (cable/satellite/OTA), remote and VCR control. The former (prefs) has Parental controls, Channels, Channel Banner, Audio Options, Video Recording Quality, Save Disk Space.

In "Recording Options" for a particular show, I only have Record Quality, Keep-at-least, and start/stop time settings.


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## azitnay

Yeah, I severely doubt Series1's will ever get overlap protection (although I'm sure there are hacks you can do to get it).

Drew


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## InspectorGadget

Yeah, that's the thanks I get for being an early adopter, showing great commitment with a lifetime sub and helping establish their market. They just give me the finger and move on.

Oh, except for slamming my LBA48 machine every 6 months with a completely useless software update that does nothing for me except scramble my drive with a 32-bit OS.


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## DJHall

Wouldn't this hurt live viewership too? If show A runs from 8:00 - 9:02, and show B runs from 8:59 to 10:00, how long is it going to be before live viewers get tired of missing the end of show A or the start of show B and quit watching one of them? Playing this game seems to risk a lot on the bet that your show won't be the one the viewer drops in order to resolve the overlap.


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## Northerner26

im glad i seen this thread cause i thought i was losing my mind when i kept thinking my vcr's clocks were always messing up and i would have to change the time and it would mess up one end or the other of my shows.
what a bunch of bullsh*t networks pulling that kind of crap on us! :down:


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## bicker

DJHall said:


> Wouldn't this hurt live viewership too? If show A runs from 8:00 - 9:02, and show B runs from 8:59 to 10:00, how long is it going to be before live viewers get tired of missing the end of show A or the start of show B and quit watching one of them? Playing this game seems to risk a lot on the bet that your show won't be the one the viewer drops in order to resolve the overlap.


Generally, the extra minutes are in the stronger show, so this tactic would therefore hurt the competition.


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## barbeedoll

Those of us who record might actually be better prospective buyers than the live watchers. They are up at commercial breaks to get snacks, let the dog out, or go to the bathroom.

Those of us who record are watching at our leisure. I fast forward through commercials for things Im never going to use, but if I see something that Im interested in I can rewind, pause it while I get a pencil and paper, and write down a product name, phone number, address or other information. I can show it to another person in my household who isnt even watching TV at all.

Also, from an advertisers standpoint, does it really make a difference if your spot airs at 9:01 in a long ER time period or at 9:01 in the commercial block preceding the next show on the same network? It is still in the same sequence of spots. In fact, as an advertiser you might be able to save money buying a spot at the beginning of a slightly less expensive show.

I know that someone will write and say the viewer might change the channel after their show is over, but this thread is about two back to back hit shows where the network is overlapping the times. 

Barbeedoll


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## bicker

barbeedoll said:


> Those of us who record might actually be better prospective buyers than the live watchers. They are up at commercial breaks to get snacks, let the dog out, or go to the bathroom.


While we skip the commercials completely.



barbeedoll said:


> I fast forward through commercials for things Im never going to use, but if I see something that Im interested in I can rewind


I bet TiVo owners are like me than like you.


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## mattack

barbeedoll said:


> I know that someone will write and say the viewer might change the channel after their show is over, but this thread is about two back to back hit shows where the network is overlapping the times.


I think you may have simply misworded this. It's about when two back-to-back shows ON DIFFERENT NETWORKS overlap the times. That is on purpose (at least most people speculate). The extra time also allows the network to charge the higher-rated-show's ad rates, not the lower rated one show in the "next" hour time slot.


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## lrhorer

phox_mulder said:


> 3 HD DVR's each with 2 tuners really helps in these situations.


As it happens, I have 3 dual tuner HD TiVos (2 S3s and a TiVo HD), but I employ a much simpler solution: Don't record programs off the national broadcast networks (except PBS). Not only don't I have to worry about scheduling conflicts caused by the machiavellian machinations of grossly overpaid network executives, but it also allows me to avoid the garbage they produce. 'Two birds with one stone, and it doesn't require specialized hardware.


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## bicker

However, that way you *miss* all the truly *superior* programs the broadcast networks provide.

It isn't very difficult to make a *decision* between the conflicting alternative programs and watch the one (or two, if you have a dual-tuner DVR) that you like better. This isn't rocket science.


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## azitnay

Or, assuming you have a TiVo that supports overlap protection, just make sure the program you care less about (or perhaps the program that starts later, as the beginning of a program is often less interesting than the end) is lower in priority, and rely on overlap protection. Works fine.

Drew


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## JLucPicard

InspectorGadget said:


> Yeah, that's the thanks I get for being an early adopter, showing great commitment with a lifetime sub and helping establish their market. They just give me the finger and move on.


I understand your frustration, but the reality is that technology advances.

I would imagine that you have had your Series 1's for what - 5 to 8 years or something? I'm sure if you calculated your average monthly subscription charge using the cost of lifetime service and how long you've had your TiVos that you would be WELL under the $6.95 a month (or less?) they were charging at the time you acquired them - there's the payoff for being an early adapter and your commitment to them with a lifetime sub.

Your argument reminds me of the last computer I had. When I bought it, it was one of the top of the line that Best Buy carried and I used it for years. Running off of Windows 95, I believe looking back on it. I used Norton Anti-Virus and there came a time when Norton was no longer supporting Windows 95. I looked at upgrading my OS to Windows 98 or Milennium or something like that and found that even though I was only using about 60% of the space available on the hard drive, my hard drive in total was too small to accomodate the OS upgrade.

I had the choice to continue to use that computer, understanding the limitations I was working under due to the advancement of technology, or buy a new computer - which is what I did.

So I understand your frustration, but I can't jump to the conclusion that - even after all you've done for them - TiVo is "giving you the finger and moving on". They're just supporting the OLD hardware to keep it functional and investing their resources in moving ahead and keeping up with changing times/technologies.


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## bicker

JLucPicard said:


> I'm sure if you calculated your average monthly subscription charge using the cost of lifetime service and how long you've had your TiVos that you would be WELL under the $6.95 a month (or less?) they were charging at the time you acquired them - there's the payoff for being an early adapter and your commitment to them with a lifetime sub.


Indeed, and as a matter of fact, that's tangentially why I'm no longer recommending that my friends buy the TiVo S3/HD -- I think that the product line is so mature at this point that, as compared to just renting the cable company DVR for a couple of years, a better TiVo will come along before any of my friends would realize enough value. As an early adopter, you have that many more months/years of service before your device is no longer relevant.


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## InspectorGadget

Except that they orphaned me many years ago so it would be more like a $20/month subscription if I had upgraded when they abandoned me.

And there's nothing wrong with the hardware. It's virtually the same, except that they DON'T EVEN MAKE D-TIVOs ANY MORE! They just decided to not to update the software because THEY WANT TO FORCE ME TO UPDATE THE HARDWARE AND PAY MORE SUB FEES. It's an end-run.

So don't give me an empty, hackneyed platitude like, "technology advances." I can live with not having multiroom viewing; I only have one decent TV anyway. The worst and most underhanded thing is that they keep hitting my set with irrelevant "updates" that scramble my recordings by reverting to the LBA32 kernel! This is proof that technology is not just advancing. They are specifically sabotaging my efforts at keeping my machine current and usable.

My point is that the updates they send have nothing worthwhile. WHY DO THEY KEEP SENDING THEM??? It takes me about 10 hours to recover. If they're making updates for this "discontinued" model, why don't they put something worthwhile in them??

All I want is for them to leave me the [email protected]#$% alone if they're not going to truly support my machine.

And it's nothing, nothing like getting a new computer. You have to get a new computer to keep up with Microsoft (and other app) Bloat. The TiVo power is roughly the same. It's just a matter of segregating the TiVoApp functionality.


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## azitnay

If you were willing to make the upgrade to LBA48 in the first place, why not install one of the various hacks that blocks automatic software upgrades?

Drew


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## InspectorGadget

AFAIK, there are no hacks which reliably, reputably prevent automatic upgrades. If you know of any, please point me to the thread (not really appropriate to discuss in detail here, I think).

In brief, I know of two, boot block and startup script, but both have reports of not working, also. DVR Playground's official position (after repeated asking and pleading to them and to the community) is that the only way to do it is to disable the daily call completely, which disables PPV ordering through the TiVo which also disables automatic PPV recording. I need this feature.

I'm embarrassed to say that I've never actually tried the known hacks, given the mixed reports I read about them. Perhaps when I rebuild my currently corrupted system (from the update in July -- it's been out of service for a month and a half) I'll put in both hacks and cross my fingers... Thanks for the reminder.


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## azitnay

I've always been under the impression that it was as simple as setting a boot param of upgradesoftware=false... But I've admittedly never had the necessity to try it. Definitely worth a try to avoid the potential pain of an upgrade, though.

Drew


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## mattack

InspectorGadget said:


> And there's nothing wrong with the hardware. It's virtually the same, except that they DON'T EVEN MAKE D-TIVOs ANY MORE! They just decided to not to update the software because THEY WANT TO FORCE ME TO UPDATE THE HARDWARE AND PAY MORE SUB FEES. It's an end-run.


Umm, as far as any of us on the outside know, it is *DIRECTV'S* decision whether to upgrade the software.

so it's not Tivo's decision.


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## InspectorGadget

It may not be TiVo's direct decision to push the update, that is certainly a function of DirecTV. However, it is TiVo that writes the software and creates the updates. DirecTV simply forwards it. So I would argue that it IS TiVo's responsibility and fault in continuously furnishing updates that are irrelevant in function and serve largely to wreck the systems of people who are trying to stretch some life out of their investment.


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## bicker

You can choose to think whatever you wish, but the reality is quite the opposite of your assertion. DirecTV tells TiVo what to do and what not to do. DirecTV decides whether or not to push updates. TiVo isn't the decision-maker here. Why are you so reticent about accepting that DirecTV is responsible for what you're concerned about?


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## InspectorGadget

I'll admit that I have no real information either way.

I guess it just doesn't make any sense to me that DirecTV would be "behind" it. DirecTV does not employ software engineers, at least at the TiVo level, AFAIK. It's TiVo support engineers that answer questions about the function of the machine on the phone or in the fora, not DirecTV. DirecTV doesn't produce or offer the machine any more; they're pushing their OEM DVR.

So how and why would DirecTV be originating and driving changes to the software?


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## JLucPicard

You contact TiVo (by phone or the web) and they ask if you're inquiring about a DirecTiVo and if you are, they refer you to DirecTV - they don't handle those inquiries themselves. And DirecTV decides which TiVo features get turned on for the DirecTiVos and which features don't. There's a whole community of people discussing how to hack certain DirecTiVos to add the features they want, but DirecTV doesn't allow TiVo to push.

I'm a fan of DirecTV - been with them for a decade now - but TiVo only does with the DirecTiVos what DirecTV allows them to do.


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## bicker

InspectorGadget said:


> I guess it just doesn't make any sense to me that DirecTV would be "behind" it. DirecTV does not employ software engineers, at least at the TiVo level, AFAIK.


Software engineers don't push software updates out to clients. And DirecTV contracts the software development.

Sorry, but again, you're simply off-base.



InspectorGadget said:


> DirecTV doesn't produce or offer the machine any more


Credit to DirecTV that they still support it... but *they* still support it, no one else. TiVo, as a rule, does *not* support the DirecTiVo.



InspectorGadget said:


> So how and why would DirecTV be originating and driving changes to the software?


They are the *only *ones who can.

Here's the press release:

http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=257482

Quoting:


> DIRECTV to Introduce Additional TiVo Features


*Not*, "TiVo to introduce new features for the DirecTiVo".


> DIRECTV's launch of these additional features underscores the uniqueness of TiVo's DVR service


*Not*, "TiVo's launch of these additional features..."


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## InspectorGadget

Well, don't be too quick to deprecate me. If you're trusting exact wording of press releases, I don't think you have any more real insight into the process than I do. That press release already has an objective lie in the first line.

Here are a couple of articles for you. First, an article about the latest DirecTV acquisition by Liberty Media, with a quote from the CEO that "Liberty isn't in the business of making DVRs."

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070801-updates-show-more-signs-of-new-love-between-tivo-directv.html

Here is a sample contract between DirecTV and TiVo very clearly spelling out TiVo's responsibility in doing the software development.

http://contracts.onecle.com/tivo/directv.dev.2002.02.15.shtml

It's evident from this contract that DirecTV had a lot to say about what went into the DirecTiVo, but after owning both a Series1 Standalone AND DTiVo and seeing all the similarities, DirecTV's modifications to the UI were minor and focal. Obviously there was a lot of exchange of information on the protocol level for interfacing to the satellites through the sat tuners, but all the code was written by TiVo.

While DirecTV drove a lot of this at the beginning, I don't think they're driving bug fixes or minor updates to the TiVo. I admit this is a guess, but I haven't seen any proof either way. And I don't know why DirecTV would be initiating this when they're pushing their own DVR now.

Your adamant assertions that "the reality is quite the opposite of your assertion" and "DirecTV contracts the software development" (unless you mean TO TiVo) and that I'm "simply off base" and that "they are the ONLY ones who CAN" do not have any supporting proof, so they are as flimsy as my own claims are. In fact, DirecTV is by definition NOT the ONLY ones who CAN, because obviously TiVo CAN, since they wrote the software in the first place. And I'm doubting whether they (DirecTV) write software at all.

My claims are admittedly guesses, but they're educated guesses based on having worked in OEM and ODM consumer businesses for six or seven years now. What are your claims based on? A press release?


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## InspectorGadget

JLucPicard said:


> You contact TiVo (by phone or the web) and they ask if you're inquiring about a DirecTiVo and if you are, they refer you to DirecTV - they don't handle those inquiries themselves. And DirecTV decides which TiVo features get turned on for the DirecTiVos and which features don't. There's a whole community of people discussing how to hack certain DirecTiVos to add the features they want, but DirecTV doesn't allow TiVo to push.
> 
> I'm a fan of DirecTV - been with them for a decade now - but TiVo only does with the DirecTiVos what DirecTV allows them to do.


There isn't anything I know of in the DirecTiVo that DirecTV "doesn't allow" TiVo to "push" unless you're referring to easter eggs like 30-second skip activation. These hacks are consistent across DTiVo and SA-TiVo units so they don't have anything to do with DirecTV directing them to be included or excluded. And there's nothing in the SA TiVo that's not in the DirecTiVo so there isn't anything that DirecTV is "turning off." I know this from direct experience since I own and currently use both.

In my previous post you can link to and read the development contract between DirecTV and TiVo. DirecTV defined how some of the screens looked and the protocols and such, but TiVo defined the program guide operation (thank God), the operational features and wrote all the software.

It's all virtually the same as the Standalone TiVo which has nothing to do with DirecTV. That's why I find it hard to believe DirecTV is the driving force behind what is in the DTiVo.

I am also a fan of DirecTV, also for nearly a decade, but that doesn't automatically mean DirecTV is calling all the shots.


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## InspectorGadget

Well, notwithstanding my arguments about the details, I must admit that JLucPicard and bicker have made me reconsider my original position.

Especially given that my SA-TiVo hasn't been updated since version 3.0 (though TiVo, not DirecTV, came up with a DST update for the SA at the same time that DirecTV pushed an update for the DTiVo for DST update) and the DTiVo has been updated several times to ver. 3.5d, I am willing to consider that DirecTV is requesting and/or directing some of these updates (though I still believe TiVo is writing them).

So I officially shift my hatred to DirecTV for wrecking my LBA48 DTiVo installs.

Happy? 


BTW, I'm still pissed at TiVo for not supporting LBA48 in the SA and DTiVo kernels. I still believe they're responsible for this omission, though they probably would have put it in the DTiVo release if DirecTV had demanded it.


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## azitnay

InspectorGadget said:


> And there's nothing in the SA TiVo that's not in the DirecTiVo so there isn't anything that DirecTV is "turning off." I know this from direct experience since I own and currently use both.


Perhaps not on the Series1 platform... But there are plenty of features, such as multi-room viewing, on the Series2 platform that never officially made it to DirecTiVos, and it's my understanding that it was totally DirecTV's call on that one.

Drew


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## bicker

InspectorGadget said:


> Well, don't be too quick to deprecate me.


I think you're grasping at straws trying to rationalize your position because you simply cannot stand the fact that who you _want_ to blame for your dissatisfaction isn't the blame. I haven't any idea why you'd so enamored of DirecTV and have such antipathy for TiVo. It seems like it is a personal thing, with you. Nothing more.


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## InspectorGadget

And you're grasping at straws to be vituperative.

I just said I blamed DirecTV, what do you want from me??? I don't care about DirecTV. I hate them both. I love them both. What, am I psychotic? I get this way when people badger me and badger me and badger me and badger me and badger me and badger me and badger me and badger me and badger me...

The fact is, you don't appear to have any more idea what's going on than I do. What's your problem? Why do you keep assaulting my character? I just stated what I thought was going on and I got all this "the reality is quite the opposite of your assertion" and "you're simply off base" and all this absolutist language about how wrong I am.

All I know is that between DirecTV and TiVo they keep wrecking my DTiVo with LBA48. I don't really care who is to blame because it won't do me a bit of good anyway!


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## mattack

InspectorGadget said:


> So I officially shift my hatred to DirecTV for wrecking my LBA48 DTiVo installs.


Wasn't there a sticker saying "no user serviceable parts inside" or similar?

All of us hacking our Tivos know that it's not officially supported, and any software update can potentially screw them up. You should have known that risk when you hacked it.


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## bicker

And should reconcile yourself to the consequences and ramifications.


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## Jonathan_S

InspectorGadget said:


> There isn't anything I know of in the DirecTiVo that DirecTV "doesn't allow" TiVo to "push" unless you're referring to easter eggs like 30-second skip activation. These hacks are consistent across DTiVo and SA-TiVo units so they don't have anything to do with DirecTV directing them to be included or excluded. And there's nothing in the SA TiVo that's not in the DirecTiVo so there isn't anything that DirecTV is "turning off." I know this from direct experience since I own and currently use both.


How about the big one (for many people), multi-room viewing (MRV)?

(Oh, I see from you next post that you've got a series 1 DirecTiVo. Yeah, the series 1 platforms are much closer in terms of features, likely because the S1 DTiVos were still DirecTV's main DVR when TiVo retired the S1 platform)

But MRV is avalible on all series 2 & 3 standalone TiVos (now anyway. S3 units took a while to get it), and unavalible on DirecTivos (unless youv'e got an older series 2 DTiVo that you've hacked). The code is present on the DTiVo (which is why the hack works), but disabled.

And DTiVo was years late getting the new wishlist functionality and deleted recordings folders. (It did get those in the last update, right? I didn't install that one because it removes the ability to run a MRV hack)


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## InspectorGadget

Jonathan_S said:


> How about the big one (for many people), multi-room viewing (MRV)?
> 
> (Oh, I see from you next post that you've got a series 1 DirecTiVo. Yeah, the series 1 platforms are much closer in terms of features, likely because the S1 DTiVos were still DirecTV's main DVR when TiVo retired the S1 platform)
> 
> But MRV is avalible on all series 2 & 3 standalone TiVos (now anyway. S3 units took a while to get it), and unavalible on DirecTivos (unless youv'e got an older series 2 DTiVo that you've hacked). The code is present on the DTiVo (which is why the hack works), but disabled.
> 
> And DTiVo was years late getting the new wishlist functionality and deleted recordings folders. (It did get those in the last update, right? I didn't install that one because it removes the ability to run a MRV hack)


Thanks for your thoughtful and intelligent response.

Yes, you're right, I was only responding about the S1 machines because that's all I have and know. I see what you mean now about DTV keeping things turned off. I've been feeling pretty left out with only S1 machines, if you haven't been able to tell. I may get an old Series 2 DTiVo, hack it to turn on those features, and just shoulder the additional service fees.

Which series DTiVo do you have? How did you select whether to install the last update?


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## Jonathan_S

InspectorGadget said:


> Thanks for your thoughtful and intelligent response.
> 
> Yes, you're right, I was only responding about the S1 machines because that's all I have and know. I see what you mean now about DTV keeping things turned off. I've been feeling pretty left out with only S1 machines, if you haven't been able to tell. I may get an old Series 2 DTiVo, hack it to turn on those features, and just shoulder the additional service fees.
> 
> Which series DTiVo do you have? How did you select whether to install the last update?


Well, I do have an old Sony series 1, but it isn't active at the moment. Right now I'm using a pair of Series 2 DTiVos.

I didn't specifically have to choose whether to install the last update because the hack utility I used to enable multi-room viewing automatically disables software updates. 
(It's safer that way, since a software update may interact unpredictable with some of the hacks. It's safter to wait until the interaction has been tested out by the hacking community before upgrading the software and re-hacking the box. Or you can just leave it running the old software )

I used the popular zipper program to hack the DTiVos.


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## InspectorGadget

Jonathan_S said:


> Well, I do have an old Sony series 1, but it isn't active at the moment. Right now I'm using a pair of Series 2 DTiVos.
> 
> I didn't specifically have to choose whether to install the last update because the hack utility I used to enable multi-room viewing automatically disables software updates.
> (It's safer that way, since a software update may interact unpredictable with some of the hacks. It's safter to wait until the interaction has been tested out by the hacking community before upgrading the software and re-hacking the box. Or you can just leave it running the old software )
> 
> I used the popular zipper program to hack the DTiVos.


Yes, I've seen "the zipper." Nice approach to upgrades; that was what I intended to do on the S1 platform. Do you like the Hughes SD-DVR40 in comparison to the SAT-T60? Would you recommend that upgrade path in retrospect?

Oh, and does on-screen PPV ordering still work with the upgrades-turned-off mechanism that you use?


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## Jonathan_S

InspectorGadget said:


> Yes, I've seen "the zipper." Nice approach to upgrades; that was what I intended to do on the S1 platform. Do you like the Hughes SD-DVR40 in comparison to the SAT-T60? Would you recommend that upgrade path in retrospect?


When I initially made the transition I didn't like the Hughes remote, but unfortunately Sony never made a Series 2 DTiVo, so whatever box I got would have the TiVo peanut remote.

However, I've gotten used to it and now the remote doesn't bother me.

Aside from that, they're both TiVos, so the user interface is pretty similar. And all the Series 2 DTiVos use the same remote and have the same interface. The only one to be wary of is the R10; which has extra restrictions which requires hardware modification to hack. (But aside from that hacking limit is otherwise identical the the rest of the series 2 DTiVos)

I do miss the series 1 ability to sort the now-playing list by expiration date (using the SORT code). 
But the series 2 grouping feature really helps organize Now Playing. And the multi-room viewing is very convenient after I moved into a bigger place with more than 1 TV.



InspectorGadget said:


> Oh, and does on-screen PPV ordering still work with the upgrades-turned-off mechanism that you use?


I don't know, I've never ordered PPV.


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## InspectorGadget

Thanks for your perspective; it is very helpful.



Jonathan_S said:


> I do miss the series 1 ability to sort the now-playing list by expiration date (using the SORT code).


Can't you just sort it to your preference in TivoWebPlus? Yeah, it's not like having it right on-screen, but it can help with housekeeping a lot.



Jonathan_S said:


> I don't know, I've never ordered PPV.


The perennial problem: The better the hacker, the less likely he is to use PPV. I fear that the Zipper uses the same approach as DVR Playground -- Don't Phone Home.

I'll try the other hacks before I give up on this on the S1, but your comments sound hopeful for the S2's. I'll remember to avoid the R10.


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## mattack

Jonathan_S said:


> I do miss the series 1 ability to sort the now-playing list by expiration date (using the SORT code).


Workaround:
1) turn off groups
2) sort by date
3) go to the end (-> key)
4) page UP to the first non-green item

Sounds hokey, but it's how I figure out if something has been deleted or not when I have 0 suggestions & 0 recently deleted items.

(I realize I can't actually DO anything if there has been a deletion, but it makes me feel good to find out nothing was auto-deleted.)


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## Jonathan_S

mattack said:


> Workaround:
> [...]
> Sounds hokey, but it's how I figure out if something has been deleted or not when I have 0 suggestions & 0 recently deleted items.
> 
> (I realize I can't actually DO anything if there has been a deletion, but it makes me feel good to find out nothing was auto-deleted.)


That kind-of works, (as does the previous suggestion to use tivoweb), but not for how I used to use sort-by-expiration.

(Which I realize was more or less taking advantage of a side effect, rather than using it to figure out what was likely to be deleted).

Basically, if you worked a bit, you could turn sort-by-expiration into a semi-custom sort. By manipulating (extending) their expiration date you could cause shows of your choice to be listed together at the top of Now Playing.

Which could be useful when you've got 80 hours of shows piled up and you're flipping back and forth between 3 or 4 that were recorded months apart. Rather than having to hunt through the list for them, they'd all be together.

(And admittedly, the grouping ability of the S2 units has made the hunt for shows on a large disk much less annoying, but I still miss the ability to fake 'custom-sort' on the TiVo)


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## Syzygy

InspectorGadget said:


> There isn't anything I know of in the DirecTiVo that DirecTV "doesn't allow" TiVo to "push" unless you're referring to easter eggs like 30-second skip activation. These hacks are consistent across DTiVo and SA-TiVo units so they don't have anything to do with DirecTV directing them to be included or excluded. And there's nothing in the SA TiVo that's not in the DirecTiVo so there isn't anything that DirecTV is "turning off." I know this from direct experience since I own and currently use both...
> 
> I am also a fan of DirecTV, also for nearly a decade, but that doesn't automatically mean DirecTV is calling all the shots.


Because I'm stepping in here for the first time, I must say that I sympathize with InspectorGadget's frustration and, may I say, bitterness.

The first two sentences in his post contradict each other. Sentence 1 suggests DirecTV doesn't allow TiVo to push 30-second skip activation. Sentence 2 suggests DirecTV _does_ allow it. The second suggestion is correct.

Here's why I feel compelled to reply: There *is* in fact something in the SA TiVo that's not in the DirecTiVo -- so there *is at least one thing* that DirecTV is turning off. That's the "star" ratings taken from Leonard Maltin's annual compendium of movie reviews. I really miss those stars.


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