# MPEG2 HD Channels Gone March 31



## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

Just posted at DBSTalk ....
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2386012#post2386012

The MPEG2 HD Channels in the 70's channel range will be coming down at the end of March. HBO, ESPN, ESPN2, TNT, etc. There is a slide on channel 99 (starting tomorrow) that explains the details.

If you have an MPEG4 HD DVR (HR20/21/22/23), a heads up for some of you that may have DVR recordings scheduled, make sure you change it to the MPEG4 HD channel (i.e 206 for ESPN, 209 for ESPN2, etc,etc).

If you are one of the handful of folks in which their only HD receiver is of the MPEG2 variety, your last 6 HD channels are only going to be around until the end of the month. Moving forward, only the MPEG4 variety will be broadcast as of April 1st.
__________________


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## KurtBJC (Jan 2, 2007)

Bloody hell...we let one of the DirecTV DVRs into our house, but have fortunately seldom had to watch it. I hate the thing and it amazes me that the HDTivo box, years older, is so much more responsive and fast (well, at anything that doesn't involve resorting a "to do" list or that sort of thing). I have been waiting and hoping for the new HDTivo, and this is going to mean tuning over to the CrapDVR (as we not-so-affectionately call it, and as it has been labeled on our receiver) much more often in the meanwhile. It will certainly make me that much more eager for the new TiVo unit.


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## Stoystown (Jun 13, 2002)

This news (the ending of the old signals) makes me think that the new HD Tivo from Directv is getting even closer. While there aren't that many HD Tivos on Directv, they would be pretty cold in nuking these boxes without an upgrade path.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

Stoystown said:


> This news (the ending of the old signals) makes me think that the new HD Tivo from Directv is getting even closer. While there aren't that many HD Tivos on Directv, they would be pretty cold in nuking these boxes without an upgrade path.


We can only hope. But the latest "official" word at a recent Tivo investor's converence said "late 2010".


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## KurtBJC (Jan 2, 2007)

Yeah, I'm not all that optimistic about it showing up soon. Too bad DirecTV and TiVo didn't keep things together in the in-between years -- I always thought that these were two products that complemented each other perfectly. We bought our first standalone TiVo back in 1999, and it's still running, albeit with a good deal less to do these days. The HR10-250 is a really nice unit, and I've been nothing but happy with it (other than a failed HDMI card) -- I hope they don't bugger up the new one...


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Stoystown said:


> This news (the ending of the old signals) makes me think that the new HD Tivo from Directv is getting even closer. While there aren't that many HD Tivos on Directv, they would be pretty cold in nuking these boxes without an upgrade path.


They are completely unrelated. The old MPEG2 HD channels would have been turned off nearly 2 years ago if MDU's (apartments/condos) had been ready with the new dishes and switches. That's the only reason it has taken as long as it has.


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## brott (Feb 23, 2001)

shibby191 said:


> They are completely unrelated. The old MPEG2 HD channels would have been turned off nearly 2 years ago if MDU's (apartments/condos) had been ready with the new dishes and switches. That's the only reason it has taken as long as it has.


This is correct.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

litzdog911 said:


> ...If you have an MPEG4 HD DVR (HR20/21/22/23), a heads up for some of you that may have DVR recordings scheduled, make sure you change it to the MPEG4 HD channel (i.e 206 for ESPN, 209 for ESPN2, etc,etc)...


That might not be necessary. I tried to record 79 (HDNet) the other day on a HR20 because I like the smooth FFWDx1. But, I did not get a smooth FFWDx1, which makes me think the HR20 mapped 79 to 306, which is the MPEG4 version of HDNet. IOW, all of the mapping may be done already. I do get it when I use a HR10 (well, at least for now ).


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## KDX (Jun 3, 2006)

Thanks for the link.

Is HBO considered one of the HD channels, when six were mentioned? I don't get HBO, so I am only seeing 5.

My happy mix of two HR10-250's and two HR20-100S's is about to get less useful.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Yes, HBO HD is one of the remaining MPEG2 channels that is going away.


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## Scooter (Mar 15, 2000)

It's about time. How long have they been talking about dumping them?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Scooter said:


> It's about time. How long have they been talking about dumping them?


It really _has_ been annoying. Having those satellite HiDefs still on the HR10-250 has just made some peoples' lives miserable. Thank god they're finally off. Or hopefully soon to be off, anyway.


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## Scooter (Mar 15, 2000)

Maybe it's an April Fool's Day hoax.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

What is the end game here? Is the strategy merely to make the HR10 less-desirable and push folks to the HR2x DVRs? Or do they have that bandwidth (currently taken up by MPEG2 HD channels) earmarked for something in particular? Maybe a little of both?


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

TyroneShoes said:


> What is the end game here? Is the strategy merely to make the HR10 less-desirable and push folks to the HR2x DVRs? Or do they have that bandwidth (currently taken up by MPEG2 HD channels) earmarked for something in particular? Maybe a little of both?


It's all about getting bandwidth back for SD channels and a lot of them. 2 main reasons:

1) Gotta get the remaining SD locals off 72.5 as the lease they have with Canada is running out on that sat location. So far they have been moving some of these directly to the MPEG4 sats (thus requiring MPEG4 HD receivers for SD locals). But freeing up this space gets them room to move some to 119 if needed or more importantly light up more LIL markets on 119 that they don't already have up and thus making congress happy.

2) Get some (all?) international packages off 95 so that they don't have to install an expensive extra dish for those that want an international package. If they can deliver the biggest ones at least via the normal 5 LNB dish it saves money and less hassle for the customer.

Plus, don't you think they want to just dump the old MPEG2 HD channels they no longer need? Why would they care about a few thousand HR10 holdouts that don't already have an HR2x?

As noted, these would have been shut down a couple years ago but MDU's weren't ready. Simple as that really.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

shibby191 said:


> these would have been shut down a couple years ago but MDU's weren't ready. Simple as that really.


No. They secretly wanted to help me win _all_ the various bets I made years ago about when they were all going to be shut off. I needed to get into 2010 for the biggest odds.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

shibby191 said:


> ...Plus, don't you think they want to just dump the old MPEG2 HD channels they no longer need? Why would they care about a few thousand HR10 holdouts that don't already have an HR2x?...


Well, no; I thought they wanted to keep channels on as if in a living museum long after zero subs were receiving them. Of course they want to get rid of them. Why maintain overhead with no ROI? In a perfect world (for them) they could get rid of all service that costs them money to put on the bird (and get rid of the birds, too) and still collect the $2 billion in revenue they collect each month. That was not my question.

The reason they care about a few thousand subs with HR10's is because if you upset what they have, the inertia that keeps them paying every month is now in flux, and they've woken a sleeping dog. Many of those subs will be pissed about the upset, many will investigate their options, some will go elsewhere. That seems just about as obvious as the answer to the first question.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

They've already done this with LA and NY HD locals, as well as some other HD channels.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

TyroneShoes said:


> The reason they care about a few thousand subs with HR10's is because if you upset what they have, the inertia that keeps them paying every month is now in flux, and they've woken a sleeping dog. Many of those subs will be pissed about the upset, many will investigate their options, some will go elsewhere. That seems just about as obvious as the answer to the first question.


Well, they shut down half of them a year ago and the LA DNS months before that. I don't think HR10's are at all a consideration, especially considering that they issued press releases 2 years ago about the shutdown and the delay due to the MDU situation. No need to look for other reasons.  But hey, think what you want, it really doesn't matter either way.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

shibby191 said:


> ...But hey, think what you want, it really doesn't matter either way.


Sorry, but that sounds suspiciously like a slam, like I'm going to believe only what makes me comfortable even if in the face of that not being reality. Having a long history here as a realist, I am supremely insulted by that notion. That has never ever been the way I roll, and you should know better.

You are also free to not get my point at all, which you didn't. That _also _"doesn't really matter either way".

But just for those who might care, my point was that no matter how many subs have something DTV or any other company wants to change or take away from them, they still run the risk of driving them away, which is intuitively completely counter to every known business model. It doesn't matter if only one person is left, you still run the same risk of pissing them off. So if between the rock of immovable subs and the hard place of needing to drag them to an incompatible system, the smart strategy is to wait until there are a negligible number of them. You have to draw a line somewhere, and this looks like where they are willing to draw it. There will always be collateral damage, and the idea is to minimize it, since you can't eliminate it.

But don't kid yourself that there is not risk involved no matter where they draw the line. It's about how big of a hit are they willing to take. And now we know. This was also a major consideration in dropping Tivo as their DVR supplier in 2007, as it would have significantly cusioned the blow if they had moved everyone to a MPEG-4 clone of the HR10-250. But they made a smart and shrewd business decision not to (IMHO). Now they will have to take the larger hit for that decision.

And I disagree vigorously with you; every single subscriber is a consideration when business decisions are made that affect whether they will remain as subscribers or not, including those that have so far refused to move to their DVR.

And while it may sound like a counter argument due to the clever sophistic way you phrased it, your point about already shutting some things down doesn't invalidate my point at all or in any way. Actually, it supports it.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

No troubles, I understand your point and it's well taken. But it's never as clear cut as that. Obviously DirecTV had major decisions to make a few years ago with their move to MPEG4. At it's peak there were maybe 150-200K HR10-250 users? So they had to weigh this question: If we lose some of them is it worth it long term to be able to add dozens and dozens of HD channels for everyone. The answer to that in hindsight is a big yes. They have gained a few million new customers in the past few years, much of that due to having so many HD channels. They would not have been able to do that had they not gone to MPEG4. 

So they weigh that (gaining millions) vs. pissing off a few thousand die hard Tivo owners. Yes, every customer matters as you say. But any time there is a major technological shift some people "get left behind" so to speak. This time it was the HR10-250 Tivo owners. Back 10 years ago when they first started putting locals on 119 the people left behind were those with older receivers that paid $600+ for (like me) that couldn't see 119 and didn't want to upgrade. I eventually paid for a new receiver so I could get my locals and my $600 Sony receiver was junk. Dish has gone thru similar advances over the years.

It's all about choices and a good company looks at the long term. Losing a few thousand or even a few tens of thousands of former Tivo owners doesn't mean a whole lot when you replace them 10 fold because of your new technology.

Dish has also gone thru very similar transition to MPEG4, they just didn't have die hard Tivo owners to worry about. But they certainly had die hard owners of older equipment that now no longer worked to get the new HD channels in MPEG4. Even cable is going thru a similar transition as they move away from cable cards to Tru 2 way and/or switched video which in this case also effects Tivo owners. 

So again, all the companies have to balance out more gains long term vs. ticking off some current customers who may then leave. If you manage it well where those ticked off customers leave in the normal churn then you'll never notice it much. DirecTV has done well in that with very low churn the past few quarters.

Now as to why it's taken so long to shut down MPEG2, I am only stating the facts as we know them. Fact is that they were planning the shutdown for years and planned to have it done a couple years ago. Fact is that the MDU's weren't ready with new equipment (dishes and switches) which forced many delays. There are press releases and quarterly calls to support these facts. 

Of course that may all be just a smokescreen in the press and the real reason is to try to string along a few thousand Tivo owners, who knows.


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## stdcss01 (Mar 17, 2010)

Well, as a HR10-250 user and a die-hard TiVo fan, I gotta say I am upset. The worst part of this is the lack of communication. I have received no email, no message (on the DVR), no written letter, no phone call.... I certainly haven't been tuning into channel 99 for fun.

I only found out about this from Twitter. Just happened to be searching for information on the mythical 2010 DirecTV/TiVo HD DVR that I have been waiting for since the "partnership" was announced.

Next step is to call DirecTV customer service and play the "what is this particular rep gonna say" game. What nonsense will they feed me about the switch and will they provide me with an upgraded unit? Let's see what happens.


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## jackrabbitslimm (Oct 6, 2000)

If it's any consolation (likely not), I feel the exact same way. I've been committed to living with the HD channel count dwindle (would have gone down as low as ESPN and HBO only remaining) until the new HD Tivo comes out, but threw in the towel last week when the "Sayonara as of March 31" scroll started...

I wasn't looking to bargain hard, all I wanted was no additional term commitment on my part. Wasn't hard to get (I'm a 12 year, $120/month subscriber), and I called on Friday, had the install done on Sunday, which included a new slimline dish, a new multiswitch (had been using a Terk 5x8, tech said that it couldn't handle MPEG-4, which I don't agree with) and an HR23-700 (they initially gave me a refurbed HR20-700, but he was having problems with one of the tuners, so he swapped it out for the HR23; primary difference seems to be 500Gb vs. 320Gb hard drive). I also had been promised an AM21 receiver, which you need for the OTA signal. This got lost somewhere between the CSR I spoke to and the tech who was dispatched, but I did a follow up call with DirecTV and it is on the way, with no additional charge or term commitment (it is only a $60 add on were you to buy it).

So anyway, since Sunday I've been viewing via the HR23. At the risk of releasing the flame-hounds, I will say that the interface is nowhere near as intuitive (and yes, I know, I will get more used to it), and my technophobic wife is not speaking to me right now... But it's nice to have all of the additional HD channels, and MPEG-4's more efficient compression means I won't worry about bumping up against my HD limit like I seemed to do a lot with my HR10-250. And all baseball and football in HD will not suck. 

All that said, I am someone who will definitely pay up when the new HD Tivo moves from vaporware to reality. I'll use it as an excuse to buy a new HD TV so that one is with the Tivo, and one is with the HR23...

Let me know when we get the HDTivo grief support group set up...


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

While I don't doubt a few owners have fell thru the cracks DirecTV has been on full press mode to get HR10-250 owners upgraded for a few years now. Back 3 years ago they were contacting people left and right offering free upgrades. They probably backed off in that the past year or so since most people have upgraded by now or at least have an MPEG4 receiver in addition to the HR10.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

As I understand it, if you have an HR2x on your account, they didn't notify you. Only those who have no MPEG4 receivers got a notice. This is just secondhand info, though, and I don't know if it's accurate. But heck, DirecTV made LOTS of notice a year ago, with letters and phone calls, so you can't say you weren't warned. These last channels were supposed to go away months ago.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

stevel said:


> As I understand it, if you have an HR2x on your account, they didn't notify you. Only those who have no MPEG4 receivers got a notice. This is just secondhand info, though, and I don't know if it's accurate.


I believe this is true, it was reported a year or two ago as this on DBSTalk. If you had at least one MPEG4 receiver on your account it was "flagged" as good to go and no further contact attempted. If you didn't have an MPEG4 receiver and only had old MPEG2 HD receivers (not just the HR10-250 but also ones like the Hughes E-86) then multiple contacts were made to provide upgrades, usually in the form of phone calls. Of course people may have thought they were telemarketing calls and didn't answer or what not.

Again, I don't doubt some slipped thru the cracks, that is common with so many subs they have, but an attempt to contact those effected with just MPEG2 HD equipment has been made in one form or another in the past 2-3 years.


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

I guess it's the end of my era for the HR10's. Glad I did not drop the 1K that others did for the IRD. Most I spent was $150 for one of them, but most were free via DirecTV on upgrades/retention specials. 

I will load up the HD programming (movies, specials, etc.) for the time being.

This is the last of the DVR's which lets you playback recordings even after deactivation. The DirecTV branded receivers do not give you this option. So I will load up my 750gig drives full of programming and still use the IRD's for OTA viewing and play a recorded program once in a while as they go off into the sunlight. They will still work fine for SD programming too..on older TV's.

Been a nice ride.....I am glad as one of the 17 or so people left at DirecTV with HR10's that they kept the 70's on as long as they did, despite the completely inaccurate news from posters on this and other sites that they would be gone for almost two years now.

I will continue on with my HR2x family and look forward to the future.

I will always praise TiVo, as it was my start to the DVR world, and look forward to new TiVo technology. Hopefully we will be married again soon.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Good post.



codespy said:


> I am glad as one of the 17 or so people left at DirecTV with HR10's that they kept the 70's on as long as they did, despite the completely inaccurate news from posters on this and other sites that they would be gone for almost two years now.


Not trying to argue but as noted they were *supposed* to be shut off nearly 2 years ago but had to delay due to MDU's dragging their feet and not being ready. Simple as that really.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

codespy said:


> I guess it's the end of my era for the HR10's. Glad I did not drop the 1K that others did for the IRD. Most I spent was $150 for one of them, but most were free via DirecTV on upgrades/retention specials.....


I was one of the folks that paid $1000 when the HR10-250 first came out. But after all these years, and the fact that it still works great for recording SD channels and local off-air HD channels, I've gotten my $$$'s worth.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I've had my HR10 for five years, and I got my money's worth out of it.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

stevel said:


> I've had my HR10 for five years, and I got my money's worth out of it.


I paid $850 for mine about 5 years ago as well. I then got an HR20 for free when I moved out of range of OTA 3.5 years ago and kept the HR10 for SD recording. I was then given another free upgrade and got an HR21 about a year after that when direcTV started sending emails to people with HR10s. I still have my HR10 for SD recording in my office. Yeah, I would say I have gotten my moneys worth.


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## drewba (Nov 25, 2000)

codespy said:


> I guess it's the end of my era for the HR10's. Glad I did not drop the 1K that others did for the IRD.


I was in the first batch from Value Electronics, paying nearly full list and it has been worth every penny. The DirectTiVo was one of the first (if not the first) DVRs capable of recording HD.

I tried moving to an HR21 a year or so ago, but facing family revolt, the HR21 was returned to DirecTV. I won't go without ESPN once football season comes, so we have a tough decision to make unless the new DirecTV TiVo actually ships in the next 6 months.


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

I like both receivers. When it comes to sports with the TiVo, I can program a wishlist such as "At Packers" and it's picked up as "@ Packers" and records every Packer football game no matter what channel. DirecTV branded units still do not do this (AFAIK).

Recently deleted folder is a must for our family too. Crap happens and mistakes have been made on NPL, and with DirecTV branded units we are screwed for now, until it gets added by their DVR's.

(yes the two kids under 6 can work DVR's now.......scary)


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

codespy said:


> I like both receivers. When it comes to sports with the TiVo, I can program a wishlist such as "At Packers" and it's picked up as "@ Packers" and records every Packer football game no matter what channel. DirecTV branded units still do not do this (AFAIK).


You can very easily do this on a DirecTV DVR using an autorecord search. There is a very large search thread on DBSTalk if you need help with it.


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

If you understand Boolean.


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

Now that the Bucks don't suck so much anymore, can't get keyword "bucks" to pick up HD games on 669-1. Only get 669 (SD) on search. Channels I receive includes 669-1.


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## tivoboy (Jan 14, 2002)

saw the trailer on HDNET yesterday, channels going away. I for one have never received a "free upgrade" to a modern HD receiver. Is there a number or promo for one to call to be able to get a new HR22+ or whatever for HR10-250 users.?


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

tivoboy said:


> saw the trailer on HDNET yesterday, channels going away. I for one have never received a "free upgrade" to a modern HD receiver. Is there a number or promo for one to call to be able to get a new HR22+ or whatever for HR10-250 users.?


Just call 1-800-DIRECTV. Tell them you just learned about the HR10-250's HD channels going away and want to upgrade to the newer HD equipment. They should offer you sweet deal.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

codespy said:


> Now that the Bucks don't suck so much anymore, can't get keyword "bucks" to pick up HD games on 669-1. Only get 669 (SD) on search. Channels I receive includes 669-1.


If you're on the current NR, you might want to try this keyword search:

*AALL bucks events hdtv CCHAN 669*

You shouldn't have to put in the "-1", even if you only want the games on 669-1. Requiring the keywords "events" and "hdtv" will insure you only match hi-def games.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

sluciani said:


> If you're on the current NR, you might want to try this keyword search:
> 
> *AALL bucks events hdtv CCHAN 669*
> 
> You shouldn't have to put in the "-1", even if you only want the games on 669-1. Requiring the keywords "events" and "hdtv" will insure you only match hi-def games.


You can also use Show Types, Events as a qualifier rather than type events. I like to put LIVE into my game searches so I don't get repeats (although you probably won't get them on a part time channel like 669).


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

A key for sports is to know your guide data. Look for things that show up in the guide data of your favorite team all the time. Some RSNs are better then others. "Live" is a good one usually on the Fox Sports Nets as they typically put Live in the guide data for the actual live showing and don't for the later repeats overnight. Just an example.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

shibby191 said:


> A key for sports is to know your guide data. Look for things that show up in the guide data of your favorite team all the time. Some RSNs are better then others. "Live" is a good one usually on the Fox Sports Nets as they typically put Live in the guide data for the actual live showing and don't for the later repeats overnight. Just an example.


This is why I _loved_ DOS and think this human engineering nonsense is a dumbing down of humanity. Where's the CHALLENGE in GUI's and Tivo's?

If you don't know boolean you've got no business watching TV.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Wil said:


> This is why I _loved_ DOS and think this human engineering nonsense is a dumbing down of humanity. Where's the CHALLENGE in GUI's and Tivo's?
> 
> If you don't know Boolean you've got no business watching TV.


It would help if you had at least some idea about DirecTv search. Apparently you don't. For people like you and your extended family DirecTv has what they call "smart search" - type anything you want from movie title to actor name or category name and it finds it for you. For mathematically challenged word "Boolean" as it apply to DirecTV search means that you need to know how to use "and" and "or" in your sentence. Fancier options are available but they probably needed for less than 1% of common situations.
I find DirecTV "smart search" much more user friendly than TiVo search and DirecTV advanced search much more capable than TiVo search.


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## cbessant (Jun 9, 2004)

Stoystown said:


> This news (the ending of the old signals) makes me think that the new HD Tivo from Directv is getting even closer. While there aren't that many HD Tivos on Directv, they would be pretty cold in nuking these boxes without an upgrade path.


The Donner Party suffered through a cold winter thinking the rescue party was just around the corner. I do think DTV is cold and non-customer supportive. Here is my response to DTV axing the old MPEG2 channels:

This is a tad overly dramatic, re: Donner party. Some manager made a decision without thinking about the customer, or even caring, unless they are in a college dorm or at a hotel. Telling HD TiVo customers they don't matter by dragging out the new HD TiVo is just *rotten* customer service. My only choice is to switch to DISH and that is like jumping into a fire. I don't have a cable or fiber option in my rural community. If I DID, I can guarantee I would have jump the DTV ship a long time ago - I call it voting with my Dollars (what little value they have left in this economy.)

BTW, I do have a DirecTv HD DVR that I really don't like.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=432315&page=7

(And yes, I made a mistake that it is the MPEG2 channels that are being wiped out.)

Originally Posted by cbessant 
On March 31, 2010 the grave stone will read: "Rest in peace MPEG-3, and screw all the remaining TiVo HD customers, unless you are a hotel or college DORM consumer".

Check-out Channel 99, and you'll see the rest of the 70-channel range that was used for MPEG-3 HD is going away; it has been suffering a slow death over the past 2 years as DirecTv chipped away at it. Still no word on when the new HD DirecTiVo will be released, and DirecTv could care less, unless you are a hotel or college dorm customer.

Nice, real nice.


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## cbessant (Jun 9, 2004)

drewba said:


> I was in the first batch from Value Electronics, paying nearly full list and it has been worth every penny. The DirectTiVo was one of the first (if not the first) DVRs capable of recording HD.
> 
> I tried moving to an HR21 a year or so ago, but facing family revolt, the HR21 was returned to DirecTV. I won't go without ESPN once football season comes, so we have a tough decision to make unless the new DirecTV TiVo actually ships in the next 6 months.


Very well said!!!!


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## ErliDayz (Oct 17, 2007)

I'm curious if anyone out there is working on or has come with a motherboard upgrade for the HR10 's to the MPEG 4 profile. That would be a money maker for someone!


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I've never heard of such a thing and would think it impossible without the cooperation of DirecTV. New satellite tuners would be required and new software to recognize the added satellites (99 and 103). All that and maintaining the TiVo software? Good luck with that.


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## eleventeen (Dec 15, 2004)

Got a confusing one for everybody, I have a HR10-250 on my account as well as a SD DTivo unit. I added the HR10-250 when the power supply in my other SD unit fried so no dish was replaced, which in hindsight may be what is confusing them.
I got a letter in the mail, an email, a phone call, notice on the screen, etc, that the HD channels in the 70s were going away as everybody knows and to call 888-763-7772 to schedule my upgrade "free of charge with no commitment extension". 
Well I called yesterday and they tell me I don't need an upgrade, so I call back tonight and the first CSR I speak to says yes you do, well you only need the dish. Third and fourth say I need both but they need to lock me into a 2 year contract, even though the letter says differently. After 2+ hours on the phone and being hung up on by their phone system nearly everytime I was put on hold, I still don't have a straight answer. 

The supervisors and their supervisor both told me I just needed the dish upgraded, I don't have the 5LNB oval but everything I'm reading here and elsewhere says I can't get the HD channels on the HR10-250. They now want to charge me for the new dish install and say I don't need the new DVR. They sent this on to their "resolution department" and I might hear back in 3-5 days because I'm not paying for a dish if they sent me multiple letters saying there is no charge. 

So do I need a new dish and receiver or just the dish? 

BTW, 2 different techs claimed "sometime in the Fall" for the new HD Tivo which is really what I'm waiting for but at this point I'm not sure I'll be a customer that long if they can't figure this out. 
Thanks for the help.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

It all depends what you want. Your HR10 will not get any HD channels from DirecTV, it will still get OTA channels via an antenna. If you want to get HD channels from DirecTV you need both a new dish and new receivers which of course wouldn't be a TiVo. If you want to upgrade I would keep calling until they give you a free Dish and HD DVR. If you don't care about HD then you don't need to do anything.


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## eleventeen (Dec 15, 2004)

bigpuma said:


> It all depends what you want. Your HR10 will not get any HD channels from DirecTV, it will still get OTA channels via an antenna. If you want to get HD channels from DirecTV you need both a new dish and new receivers which of course wouldn't be a TiVo. If you want to upgrade I would keep calling until they give you a free Dish and HD DVR. If you don't care about HD then you don't need to do anything.


Thanks, that's what I thought, they kept saying I'd get all the HD channels with my current receiver and just a new dish. I'm okay without HD for a while if it means I keep the Tivo, although I was willing to give their DVR a try for free but if they can't give me that after offering I'll just remove the HD.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

eleventeen said:


> Got a confusing one for everybody, I have a HR10-250 on my account as well as a SD DTivo unit. I added the HR10-250 when the power supply in my other SD unit fried so no dish was replaced, which in hindsight may be what is confusing them.
> I got a letter in the mail, an email, a phone call, notice on the screen, etc, that the HD channels in the 70s were going away as everybody knows and to call 888-763-7772 to schedule my upgrade "free of charge with no commitment extension".
> Well I called yesterday and they tell me I don't need an upgrade, so I call back tonight and the first CSR I speak to says yes you do, well you only need the dish. Third and fourth say I need both but they need to lock me into a 2 year contract, even though the letter says differently. After 2+ hours on the phone and being hung up on by their phone system nearly everytime I was put on hold, I still don't have a straight answer.
> 
> ...


How long ago did you get those letters? I think they were sending those out like crazy a year ago and before but trailed off since then. It could be that if those letters were from a while ago that those deals are no longer in the system which is why they are having such a tough time. I had read elsewhere that after a certain point they figured all those that wanted to upgrade did and they quit hounding people to upgrade.

And like you said, sounds like you don't actually get HD (?) so that may be confusing them as well.

Bottom line though, if you want HD from DirecTV you need a new 3 or 5 LNB "Slimline" dish *and* and HR2x HD DVR. Period. You can still continue to use your HR10-250 as an SD DVR however (as well as OTA HD if you can get it).

Good luck on trying to get the deal.

It is good to hear the CSR's saying "fall" for the new HD DirecTivo since that now jives with what the Tivo CEO said a couple weeks ago that it was delayed until "later" this year. Thus perhaps that has now started to be communicated down to the front line.


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

sluciani said:


> If you're on the current NR, you might want to try this keyword search:
> 
> *AALL bucks events hdtv CCHAN 669*
> 
> You shouldn't have to put in the "-1", even if you only want the games on 669-1. Requiring the keywords "events" and "hdtv" will insure you only match hi-def games.


Thanks for the tip....I will give it a shot and respond on the results...even though they laid an egg vs. the 76ers tonite.


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## eleventeen (Dec 15, 2004)

shibby191 said:


> How long ago did you get those letters? I think they were sending those out like crazy a year ago and before but trailed off since then. It could be that if those letters were from a while ago that those deals are no longer in the system which is why they are having such a tough time. I had read elsewhere that after a certain point they figured all those that wanted to upgrade did and they quit hounding people to upgrade.
> 
> And like you said, sounds like you don't actually get HD (?) so that may be confusing them as well.


The letter is dated March 1st of this year, I got the email in the past week. The manager I spoke to admitted that "corporate" sent all these letters out and they didn't know anything about it until this week even though the letters went out a few weeks ago. So they know about the letters, they just don't have the ability to do what the letters say. 
I get HD on the channels in the 70s but nowhere else which is what I expect but these are the channels they are moving, I'm just not sure they keep telling me the HD Tivo unit should get all the new channels.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

eleventeen said:


> The letter is dated March 1st of this year, I got the email in the past week. The manager I spoke to admitted that "corporate" sent all these letters out and they didn't know anything about it until this week even though the letters went out a few weeks ago. So they know about the letters, they just don't have the ability to do what the letters say.
> I get HD on the channels in the 70s but nowhere else which is what I expect but these are the channels they are moving, I'm just not sure they keep telling me the HD Tivo unit should get all the new channels.


Go over on DBSTalk and find the email of the VP of customer support. Ellen something. You email her and you'll get the VP office support calling you back and taking care of you. I'm sure they will straighten it out for you. At the least they should have the ability to override whatever the normal CSR's can't do. At least that's what I've read over there.


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## Eben (Jul 19, 2001)

Try [email protected].


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## eleventeen (Dec 15, 2004)

Eben said:


> Try [email protected].


Thanks, I took your and Shibby's advice and emailed her, I also put a note on their Twitter and Facebook pages as they seem to be responding to those as well. I got a call back from somebdy in her office on Saturday morning to get an explaination on everything. 
He admitted the techs who told me I didn't need anything new were wrong and would follow up on some better training, he confirmed what I read here and knew already, that I need a new dish and receiver to get anything HD after March 31st. 
They are willing to give me the equipment, just not without the 2 year committment, he tried to explain it by saying the HR10-250 I have, which I got from a friend who moved to FIOS when my other unit died, was already upgraded when it was on their account so they can't upgrade it again even though they got that equipment back. He also told me I couldn't remove the HD service from my account while I have the HR10-250 activated, but I think he had that wrong since I know people have done that. Might have something to do with the fact that when I activated the HR10 they put it in as leased equipment. 
It's an explanation at least so that helps.

While I had somebody from their corporate office on the phone I asked about the HR-24 since the reviews have been better and he said he couldn't get me that, they are only testing it in 4 markets and it was scheduled for a wide release in May. He also had no dates on the HD Tivo at all, which is funny to me since two reps are saying "Fall". I'll believe it when I see it. 
I'm thinking about what to do, not sure I want to part with the Tivo just yet.

As an aside, wouldn't Tivo and DirecTV want to push on getting the TIVO out to capitalize on the DISH customers that might be loosing DVR service if Tivo gets their way with the lawsuit? Guess it's not that easy even if the lawsuit has been going on for years.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

eleventeen said:


> I'm thinking about what to do, not sure I want to part with the Tivo just yet.


You can keep your HR10 active so you don't have to give up your Tivo. But obviously it would be good for SD and OTA HD only going forward.

I guess your decision probably comes down to this: Are you going to stay with DirecTV no matter what, even if a new DirecTivo never comes out or is delayed even more. If that answer is yes then I personally would take the free upgrade, you'll be all set with the new dish and you'll get all the HD channels on the new receiver. You can keep the HR10 going as long as you want. If/when the new DirecTivo comes out you can get one. If it doesn't you're staying with DirecTV anyway so doesn't really matter.

Now if Tivo is your most important thing then I guess you have to decide how long do you want to wait for a new DirecTivo and not have HD or research your cable/Fios options with a stand alone Tivo.

There is no right or wrong answer here, it's just what is most important to you personally.



> As an aside, wouldn't Tivo and DirecTV want to push on getting the TIVO out to capitalize on the DISH customers that might be loosing DVR service if Tivo gets their way with the lawsuit? Guess it's not that easy even if the lawsuit has been going on for years.


Well, I highly doubt it will ever get to the point that Dish actually has to shut off DVRs. Money will exchange hands one way or another. But on that issue, DirecTV already has their own DVR platform that 10+ million of their subs use, they don't need Tivo to capture ticked off Dish subs.  Tivo however you'd think they would want it out yesterday because they are shedding subs every month they will have a hard time getting back. Ticked off Dish subs don't really matter, they need to get this thing out and now.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

eleventeen said:


> As an aside, wouldn't Tivo and DirecTV want to push on getting the TIVO out to capitalize on the DISH customers that might be loosing DVR service if Tivo gets their way with the lawsuit? Guess it's not that easy even if the lawsuit has been going on for years.


While I doubt Dish will ever turn off a single DVR, why would having a new DirecTivo make people that currently don't have a Tivo more likely to sign with Directv if they leave Dish?
It might help Tivo but I don't see Directv caring one way or the other.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

eleventeen said:


> As an aside, wouldn't Tivo and DirecTV want to push on getting the TIVO out to capitalize on the DISH customers that might be loosing DVR service if Tivo gets their way with the lawsuit? Guess it's not that easy even if the lawsuit has been going on for years.


What would Tivo have to do with it? DirecTV has a DVR that uses some Tivo-like technology (they have an agreement unlike Dish). Dishplayers are nothing like Tivo from a user interface viewpoint so Tivo is not a big attraction for Dish customers. Not that it is much of an attraction for DirecTV customers either; DirecTV has not offered a Tivo in years and they are doing just fine.

(I hope you get your issue worked out..get the HR2x and watch lots of HD. Not worth trying to wait it out.)


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## eleventeen (Dec 15, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> What would Tivo have to do with it? DirecTV has a DVR that uses some Tivo-like technology (they have an agreement unlike Dish). Dishplayers are nothing like Tivo from a user interface viewpoint so Tivo is not a big attraction for Dish customers. Not that it is much of an attraction for DirecTV customers either; DirecTV has not offered a Tivo in years and they are doing just fine.
> 
> (I hope you get your issue worked out..get the HR2x and watch lots of HD. Not worth trying to wait it out.)


Really a thought from both sides, Tivo and DirecTV. Tivo wants more people using their software, Dish customers may be more likely to go to DirecTV than cable for various reasons, avaliablility being one, so they do everything they can to get the new DTivo boxes out. DirecTV wants to capitalize on angry Dish customers and promotes that fact they have a DVRand they have a DVR with Tivo that won't get shut off like your just did. Although that could backfire if Dish people are just mad that Tivo took away their DVRs in a roundabout way, although I would never see it that way. 
Just a thought, I'm sure it's been brought up before.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

eleventeen said:


> Really a thought from both sides, Tivo and DirecTV. Tivo wants more people using their software, Dish customers may be more likely to go to DirecTV than cable for various reasons, avaliablility being one, so they do everything they can to get the new DTivo boxes out. DirecTV wants to capitalize on angry Dish customers and promotes that fact they have a DVRand they have a DVR with Tivo that won't get shut off like your just did. Although that could backfire if Dish people are just mad that Tivo took away their DVRs in a roundabout way, although I would never see it that way.
> Just a thought, I'm sure it's been brought up before.


Once again. DirecTV has a DVR. One they are quite proud of. Tivo means little to Dish customers as their boxes never had Tivo and don't look anything like Tivo. DirecTV DVRs will not be shut off. There is no real value for DirecTV to have Tivo to entice Dish customers. The only one that benefits would be Tivo.

The part you aren't getting is that DirecTV has functioning DVRs without Tivo.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

You can have your Tivoless DVR. I ain't buying. Got it?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

fasTLane said:


> You can have your Tivoless DVR. I ain't buying. Got it?


understood. just for fun what would you do if Tivo stopped making DVR's 5 years from now? Go back to not using one just because you couldn't get a Tivo?


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

Well, I'm a little sad as the Zero Hour approaches, it's the end of something that was unique and special - at one point in time. I've moved on, my HR10-250 is still running and in my equipment stack, but it's very very little used at this point. The Hr2x's are very good, and very solid and I have come to like and even enjoy using them over the past year.

For those of you who have it burned in your brains that you won't use anything other than a TiVo it's your loss. I can tell you this there is very little chance I'd even consider the rumored "New" D Tivo in the future, it would certainly have to do more, much more than the current D DVRs to get me to consider spending any money on it. This from a guy who plunked down $1000 for the first HDTivo, and has 3 more sitting in his closet.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> DirecTV has a DVR. One they are quite proud of.


I detect no sense of that. The strongest statements I remember from DirecTV are to the effect that, if you don't know any better, theirs is fine. Half a dozen people on this Tivo forum continually bombast on how they prefer the DirecTV DVR over the Tivo (beyond HiDef content which everybody agrees is a DirecTV non_Tivo advantage for the moment), but there is no groundswell of admiration. It's better than all of the cable company generics; it's better than most (but not all) of the DISH DVRs; if that's something to be proud of.

If the upcoming DirecTivo is a real Tivo (we don't know that yet) and if DirecTV puts this DirecTivo on a level playing field price-wise (we don't know that yet), the non-Tivo DirecTV DVR is dead. Everybody knows that, so there will be no real Tivo/level playing field.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Yea, just keep telling yourself that Tivo crushes the competition. Another 100K lost Tivo subs in the last quarter. And the losses continue to accelerate. The Premier is panned by even the most die hard Tivo fans (not all, but many, just look at the Premier forum and the reviews). 

The public has already spoken and they don't care for a "real" Tivo. Certainly doesn't mean that Tivo isn't the best. But the public doesn't always choose what is "best". You guys just need to face that fact and get over it.

Heck, let's rank the DVRs in order of what is best for sake of argument.

1) Tivo
2) Dish DVR
3) DirecTV DVR
4) Generic Cable/FIOS DVR
5) Uverse DVR

And let's see who has the most....oh that would be the Generic cable DVR where in fact people actually have a choice to choose a real Tivo. Yet they don't. Hmmmmmmmmm.

And of course the new DirecTivo won't be on a "level" playing field. Tivo and DirecTV already announced it would be a "premium" product thus should cost more up front and more per month for sure. How much nobody knows. 
Behind the scenes in the contracts Tivo wanted more money and so DirecTV said fine, you can have more money and we'll pass that cost on. 
Tivo agreed. 
Now certainly things could change once it finally comes out, but Tivo has not said anything else to the contrary so far in their investor calls and SEC filings, they will be charging more for this box.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

Well.... They have turned the channels off here on the west coast feeds. Thought that we had 1 more day. They must have done it in the wee hours of the morning as my AM program didn't record.
Oh well, will have to power up the D* DVR now.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Wil said:


> If the upcoming DirecTivo is a real Tivo (we don't know that yet) and if DirecTV puts this DirecTivo on a level playing field price-wise (we don't know that yet), the non-Tivo DirecTV DVR is dead. Everybody knows that, so there will be no real Tivo/level playing field.


Why would people that have never owned a real Tivo call up Directv and say "I have to have the Directivo instead of your in house DVR" ? That's nonsense. You are confusing what is important to you with what everyone else cares about. The unwashed masses are happy if their DVR records shows and plays them back. That's all they want. That's all they expect.

I was a Tivo fanatic for years. But guess what, my HR20 records shows and plays them back. It surpasses my expectations and requirements. If they offered me a directivo for free I wouldn't take it because of the hassle of switching.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Wil said:


> If the upcoming DirecTivo is a real Tivo (we don't know that yet) [...]


I have no doubt that at minimum, the new DirecTiVo will be as good as the HR10-250 was.


HiDefGator said:


> [...] I was a Tivo fanatic for years. But guess what, my HR20 records shows and plays them back. It surpasses my expectations and requirements. If they offered me a directivo for free I wouldn't take it because of the hassle of switching.


I have to agree. There was no bigger TiVo fan-boy than me when the Yankees forced me to switch to an MPEG-4 box to see the 2007 season games in HD. Ya, there are a couple of HR10 features I still miss (the TiVo-style guide) and the ability to edit my CIG list, but there are more HR20 features I'd miss more now if I was forced to switch back, most notably streaming MRV.

And I certainly wouldn't pay extra for the TiVo logo:


Wil said:


> and if DirecTV puts this DirecTivo on a level playing field price-wise


The latest TiVo/DirecTV agreement calls for TiVo to receive "significantly higher" monthly revenues per subscriber than their first deal. This pricing tactic could be a strategic error on TiVo's part, IMHO. I think they'd be better off owning three DirecTV subscriber households at $1/month each than one household at $3/month, but that's just me.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

sluciani said:


> I have no doubt that at minimum, the new DirecTiVo will be as good as the HR10-250 was....


Then you are much less skeptical than I am. I will adopt a wait-and-see atitude, not expecting any sure thing. Of the DVRs that succeeded the HR20 (other than the new HR24) each seemed to be a step backward in reliability and responsiveness, probably as a cost-cutting measure (features were removed, too). Even the HR10-250 took a giant step backward when moving to v6.x from v3.1. You may remember that fiasco creating a flurry of new up revs over the next 2 years attempting to fix what v6.0 broke, and some of those newly-induced problems have never been fully addressed. I honestly think anything can happen, here, and to not expect Apple-like guaranteed success.



sluciani said:


> The latest TiVo/DirecTV agreement calls for TiVo to receive "significantly higher" monthly revenues per subscriber than their first deal. This pricing tactic could be a strategic error on TiVo's part, IMHO. I think they'd be better off owning three DirecTV subscriber households at $1/month each than one household at $3/month, but that's just me.


That is shockingly odd, and I could not agree more with you. DTV booted Tivo once they had another option because of that specific $1.30 per month per box chargeback that they had to give Tivo. They just could not stand the idea of leaving that money on the table, and basically risked all, including their reputation, putting out the then much-inferior HR20, which cost them subscribers and a great deal of good will.

While I will admit that the HR2x eventually turned out to be a real Tivo killer and everything worked out really well on that front, it was obvious that they released the box about a year too early--it just was not ready for prime time yet. But they had to get Tivo out and recoup that dough.

Now you are telling me that even though they have arguably the best DVR out there (that same HR2x, now much-improved), An entrenched DVR that has the sophistication and power to make Tivo "just another" DVR, that they are willing to sign a deal that gives Tivo even more than last time, when Tivo had them literally over a barrel?

Something fishy is going on here. I smell a DISH lawsuit fallout-driven deal. I can't imagine DTV agreeing to this unless Tivo is holding that very gun to their heads: "If you don't deal with us, we'll sue your asses off too, and probably win".

DTV's cave-in was probably something along the lines of, "OK, build your scary MPEG-4 HD DVR, and we'll offer it as a premium DTivo and pass the premium on to the customers", betting that the typical arrogance of Tivo thinking they have the best DVR and can trounce any competion (something that has been proven to be a complete fallacy many times over already) would be bait enough that Tivo would swallow hook, line, sinker. Seems like they did.

But if 5% of HD DVR customers pay that premium, I will be surprised. Sure, there is a lot of loyal Tivo die-hards out there, but when it comes to nut-cuttin' time, who will really want to pay the extra freight, other than the denizens on this forum (and only a fraction of them)? Also, I think Tivo is going to be hard-pressed to come up with a box, if the Tivo Premiere is any indication, that would be perceived as significantly better than the HR2x and as a "premium" offering. Just marginally better won't cut it--it has to be evolutionarily better, if not revolutionarily better, and I think that's a pretty tough case to close.

But DTV is in the cat-bird seat; it is win-win for them. The deal prevents the feared litigation, and if the DTivo is a hit, so be it, it will be associated with being an exclusive service of DTV, and make them a premium destination, which really costs DTV nothing. If it is a flop, only Tivo gets hurt. DTV has their own scary HD DVR already. And the DTV customers win, as well, because they get to choose what they want to have--DTV's great DVR, or Tivo's great new DVR.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

sluciani said:


> I have no doubt that at minimum, the new DirecTiVo will be as good as the HR10-250 was.I.


now that is scary given the expierence I had with the 3 HR10's


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

sjberra said:


> now that is scary given the expierence I had with the 3 HR10's


I loved my HR10's, especially after the 6.x software update that sped up the recording scheduler.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> [...] But DTV is in the cat-bird seat; it is win-win for them. The deal prevents the feared litigation, and if the DTivo is a hit, so be it, it will be associated with being an exclusive service of DTV, and make them a premium destination, which really costs DTV nothing. If it is a flop, only Tivo gets hurt. DTV has their own scary HD DVR already. And the DTV customers win, as well, because they get to choose what they want to have--DTV's great DVR, or Tivo's great new DVR.


I agree, this is a "no-lose" deal for DirecTV. It also extends the first deal's mutual "no-sue" clause, as you can see from the publicly-filed 10k that includes a description of the DirecTV-TiVo relationship.

As a result, whether or not TiVo can sue DirecTV without DirecTV re-opening the Replay vs. TiVo patent suit will probably never be known.

For those who may not know, DirecTV now owns Replay's intellectual property, and Replay and TiVo reached a stalemate about 8-9 years ago over competing patent violation suits. They decided at that time it made more sense to drop the suits against each other and, at least publicly, to devote their energy to promoting the adoption of the still, relatively new "DVR" platform. Privately, I believe they simply did not want to make lawyers rich. If either side thought they held the winning hand, I don't believe they would have given up their lawsuit.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Wil said:


> If the upcoming DirecTivo is a real Tivo (we don't know that yet) and if DirecTV puts this DirecTivo on a level playing field price-wise (we don't know that yet), the non-Tivo DirecTV DVR is dead. Everybody knows that, so there will be no real Tivo/level playing field.


Hahahahahahaha.

Tivo zealots just don't get it. DirecTV took no hit from non-Tivo DVRs. Why do you think people will flock to them.

How well is Tivo doing in the cable market? Gee, cable boxes are trouncing them.

How well is Tivo doing in the Comcast Tivo markets?

Edit to add: BTW, I have an HD Tivo for Comcast cable and I have HR2xs for DirecTV. I much prefer the DirecTV DVRs. I feel slowed down and stupid every time I go to the Tivo. And, I am going to get Fios to replace Comcast. Guess how long I thought about switching the Tivo. Less time than it took to write that sentence. I had the Tivo because the Comcast DVR is gawd awful. The Fios one is not that bad. And, yes, I was a HUUUUGE Tivo fan back in the day. The fact is that even with a snazzy HD GUI that they may or may not ever get done, Tivo has stagnated.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

TonyD79 said:


> Tivo zealots just don't get it. DirecTV took no hit from non-Tivo DVRs. Why do you think people will flock to them ........
> 
> And, yes, I was a HUUUUGE Tivo fan back in the day. The fact is that even with a snazzy HD GUI that they may or may not ever get done, Tivo has stagnated.


You and many others, myself included. I bought my first TiVo to skip commercials and time shift. It did a great job at that, but as time passed by they haven't added anything that was of interest to me and everybody else advanced DVRs to match or exceed TiVo capabilities. HR2X is a great example of that. TiVo finally added FSI and PIP to the latest Premiere model. Took them about 10 years to add features that everybody else had for years but in same time they managed to add the ads and pizza ordering. I don't have much faith that new TiVo DVR will be better than HR2X, but time will tell.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> ...Tivo zealots just don't get it. DirecTV took no hit from non-Tivo DVRs...


If you are saying what I think you are saying, that DTV never lost a step by dumping the DTivo, then I would have to agree %100 with you (even though an opinion is not a matter of fact). There was a lot of whining (still is), but DTV never blinked, and adopted an attitude of "either adapt by letting us drag you into the real world of expanded HD by giving you free DVRs and dish installs, or thanks for your patronage and good luck elsewhere". As it turned out, they were right all along. The numbers prove it.

But it really did not look good at first--the original HR20 was about the worst DVR imaginable. I had little faith that it would ever get better than it was, as history has proven that no DVR has ever really improved all that much. Tivo was good from the start, Replay was also, and the rest, which were bad from the start, never did really get better.

Except history changed with the HR20, which got remarkably better within a year, and arguably better in many significant respects that the HR10-250 within 18-24 months of its debut. I am not sure if you can attribute its growth to a very active customer test bed and exceptional synergy between designers and users, but that is the one thing this story had that no other DVR story has had to date, so maybe that is why.

what makes "zealots" zealots is a hide-bound close-mindedness, which is _why _they don't get it, and probably never will. As I said, I had grave doubts about a DTivo successor my own self, but I was willing to accept it once it was obviously as good as it was (finally).


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

TyroneShoes said:


> ................
> But it really did not look good at first--the original HR20 was about the worst DVR imaginable.............


And the R15 was even worse than that.......


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