# A slew of questions about Tivo, Cablevision and recording to DVD



## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

Hello,

I was recommended to start a thread over here by someone on another board. I have a bunch of questions, as I'm considering moving to Tivo.

I currently (as in - just last week) have two Cablevision Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD DVRs. There are two problems: 1) no way to record in SD instead of HD (which uses up more space) and 2) no way to offload the programs onto a DVD, except one at a time (i.e., I can't go to work in the morning and set the DVD-Recorder to record say 3-4 shows, so the DVD is done when I get home).

Someone mentioned a few key features about Tivo, and I'm intrigued.

So, here are my bunch-o-questions:

1. I understand Tivo will *replace* my cablebox? This is accurate? So, instead of paying $17.90 for my Cablevision DVR, I'll pay $20 for my Tivo?

2. I'm assuming the Tivo operates as a tuner, as well? I know it's not providing the signal; but it can interpret the digital signal (I no longer have an analog signal).

3. How many programs can the Tivo record/watch simultaneously -- I know the Cablevision box can watch one (live) and record two, or it can watch one recorded and can record another one. I'd like the same capacity (or more).

4. Can the Tivo record in SD mode?

5. Size of the hard drive doesn't matter, since I intend to offload the programs onto DVD (until such time as I either cut down the shows I watch, or I catch up with my watching). So, the first question is -- can I directly record from the Tivo hard drive onto a DVD-Recorder? And, if so, can I set it up to record multiple shows in a row (so I can leave in the morning and return in the evening, to have a DVD fully completed)?

Now - I've also heard about Tivo Desktop - which sounds fascinating -- my perception is this:

I'll be able to "transfer" recorded shows over my network to my PC, where I can then work with them on the PC. -- a few questions about this:

a. Do I need a wired connection or does a wireless connection work?
b. Can I *then* transfer the shows to a DVD, after being on my PC? And, if so, can I copy multiple shows; and do they transfer as *data* (in other words, faster than recording the show in real time)?

I think that's all the main questions I have - no doubt I'll have more. But, I'm excited about the prospect of having the control to record/watch the way that works best for me!

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Chris


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lemur21 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was recommended to start a thread over here by someone on another board. I have a bunch of questions, as I'm considering moving to Tivo.
> 
> ...


I am assuming you are referring to a TiVo Premiere, herein after abbreviated as TP.



lemur21 said:


> 1. I understand Tivo will *replace* my cablebox? This is accurate? So, instead of paying $17.90 for my Cablevision DVR, I'll pay $20 for my Tivo?


The $20 a month is for the TiVo service. You may still have to pay a monthly "Digital Outlet" fee to Cablevision. If you get more than one TiVo, you should qualify for a Multi-Service Discount (MSD) from TiVo. For a TP, that reduces what you pay to TiVo to $14.95 a month for each TiVo. You also have the option of getting "lifetime" service. Note that this is for the lifetime of the TiVo, not your lifetime.



lemur21 said:


> 2. I'm assuming the Tivo operates as a tuner, as well? I know it's not providing the signal; but it can interpret the digital signal (I no longer have an analog signal).


Yes, a TP has both digital and analog cable tuners. It also has over the air tuners. You will have to get a CableCARD from Cablevision. Based on the posts of other Cablevision customers, you may also need to get a Tuning Adapter.



lemur21 said:


> 3. How many programs can the Tivo record/watch simultaneously -- I know the Cablevision box can watch one (live) and record two, or it can watch one recorded and can record another one. I'd like the same capacity (or more).


Are you sure about that? Like all other non-DirecTV TiVos, a TP is always recording something. If not recording specific program(s), it is recording "live" TV. A TP has two 30-min "live" buffers which are recording whatever the two tuners are set to. When you are watching "live TV", you are actually watching from one of these buffers. You can record two channels at once while watching something else you have previously recorded. You could also be transferring something to/from another TiVo or your PC.



lemur21 said:


> 4. Can the Tivo record in SD mode?


Most, if not all DVRs, including the TiVo and probably your current ones, don't distinguish between SD and HD per se. The distinction is between digital and analog channels. For digital channels, the stream is recorded as it comes in, compressed by the cable operator. For analog channels, if you had any on your cable system, the TiVo converts them and the space required will vary depending on what "quality" is chosen. Since you say you don't have any analog channels, that point is moot.



lemur21 said:


> 5. Size of the hard drive doesn't matter, since I intend to offload the programs onto DVD (until such time as I either cut down the shows I watch, or I catch up with my watching). So, the first question is -- can I directly record from the Tivo hard drive onto a DVD-Recorder? And, if so, can I set it up to record multiple shows in a row (so I can leave in the morning and return in the evening, to have a DVD fully completed)?


If you're talking about a stand alone DVD recorder, the answer is...yes and no. You can playback an entire folder (most folders are by show. You have no control on how the folders are set up). You cannot select a list of shows to be played back. You are also going to be limited by how much will fit on one DVD.



lemur21 said:


> Now - I've also heard about Tivo Desktop - which sounds fascinating -- my perception is this:
> 
> I'll be able to "transfer" recorded shows over my network to my PC, where I can then work with them on the PC. -- a few questions about this:
> 
> ...


Again, based on posts of other Cablevision customers, you may not be able to transfer anything but shows recorded from local channels. Apparently, Cablevision is setting the CC1 bit for most channels. If this bit is set, you cannot transfer the file. At least, that is my impression.

The TP has a built-in wired Ethernet adapter. You can also use a wireless USB-Ethernet adapter. If you get a TP XL, which comes with the slide remote whose blue-tooth receiver plugs into a USB slot, you will need a supported USB hub as there are only 2 USB slots and the Tuning Adapter (see above) also requires one.

You cannot transfer them directly to DVD. You can use TiVo Desktop (or other alternatives) to select files to transfer and leave it to do unattended. If you use TiVo Desktop, you will need to convert them to some other format before you put them on DVD if you want to play them on a DVD player.

Note also that it doesn't move the programs. It copies them to the PC. They still also reside on the TiVo.



lemur21 said:


> I think that's all the main questions I have - no doubt I'll have more. But, I'm excited about the prospect of having the control to record/watch the way that works best for me!
> 
> Thanks for any help you can provide.
> 
> Chris


Hope this helps. I am sure that if I have made any egregious errors or omissions, someone will jump in to correct me.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Are you looking to potentially archive shows, or to simply save them for later? You can add in a much larger hdd, easily up to 2TB, on your own for just the cost of the drive itself.

I recommend reviewing some of the other threads around here- they will both add to your understanding and may trigger additional questions.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lemur21 said:


> Someone mentioned a few key features about Tivo, and I'm intrigued.
> 
> So, here are my bunch-o-questions:
> 
> 1. I understand Tivo will *replace* my cablebox? This is accurate? So, instead of paying $17.90 for my Cablevision DVR, I'll pay $20 for my Tivo?


It sounds to me like you are talking about a Premier, and uploading content to a PC. I do not recommend the Premier, especially not for someone in your position. I thnk a better choice might definitely be an S3 or a THD. Both can be bought on e-bay, sometimes with lifetime service. Without lifetime service, the THD and S3 are less expensive per month than a Premier.



lemur21 said:


> 2. I'm assuming the Tivo operates as a tuner, as well? I know it's not providing the signal; but it can interpret the digital signal (I no longer have an analog signal).


Yes. It has two analog tuners, two OTA tuners, and two QAM tuners, allowing it to record any two of OTA, analog, or digital Cable channels at a time.



lemur21 said:


> 3. How many programs can the Tivo record/watch simultaneously -- I know the Cablevision box can watch one (live) and record two, or it can watch one recorded and can record another one. I'd like the same capacity (or more).


It can record two signals at once and download one (or in some circumstances two) internet or LAN offering simultaneously. It can watch any show that is recording and usually can also watch any show that is downloading. Sometimes there is a delay before one may watch a show that is downloading from the internet or the local LAN. It can always watch any prevously recorded or downloaded show.



lemur21 said:


> 4. Can the Tivo record in SD mode?


It can record analog in several different quality modes, somewhat similar to a VCR. Digital content is always recorded to the hard drive as-is, regardless of whether it is SD or HD. The hard drive in the TiVo is much bigger than that in the 8300HD, and you can upgrde to a *MUCH* larger drive for under $75. With a TiVo and an appropriately sized drive, space won't be an issue.



lemur21 said:


> 5. Size of the hard drive doesn't matter, since I intend to offload the programs onto DVD (until such time as I either cut down the shows I watch, or I catch up with my watching).


A large drive is so cheap ( NewEgg has 1.5T drives for $59.99 with free shipping), I still recommend you upgrade. That, plus if you upgrade the internal drive, then you can take the original drive and set it on a shelf as a backup in case the new drive fails. That way you can be back upa nd running in a matter of minutes.

I also don't recommend burning to DVD. That's slow and expensive. Offload to a PC, instead.



lemur21 said:


> So, the first question is -- can I directly record from the Tivo hard drive onto a DVD-Recorder?


You mean using a set-top DVD recorder fed from an anlog output of the Tivo? Yes. I don't recommend it.



lemur21 said:


> And, if so, can I set it up to record multiple shows in a row (so I can leave in the morning and return in the evening, to have a DVD fully completed)?


Not to an analog output, no. Using a program like kmttg Galleon, or pyTivo, you can queue up a bunch to upload to a PC.



lemur21 said:


> Now - I've also heard about Tivo Desktop - which sounds fascinating -- my perception is this:
> 
> I'll be able to "transfer" recorded shows over my network to my PC, where I can then work with them on the PC. -- a few questions about this:


Yes, but I don't recommend TiVoDeskTop. It's a poor application. I recommend kmttg, Galleon, or pyTivo, instead.



lemur21 said:


> a. Do I need a wired connection or does a wireless connection work?


I don't recommend wireless, but it certainly can be done.



lemur21 said:


> b. Can I *then* transfer the shows to a DVD, after being on my PC?


Yes, with one caveat: if your CATV provider sets the CCI byte on a program to anythng other than 0x00, you will not be able to transfer the program in question using an unmodified DVR. I believe your CATV company does this on everything but OTA channels. This is one major reason I do not recommedn a Premier. As of this time, no one has successfully modified a Premier to circumvent CCI byte settings. For details on modifying an S3 or THD, see the "other" TiVo website.



lemur21 said:


> And, if so, can I copy multiple shows;


Yes.



lemur21 said:


> and do they transfer as *data* (in other words, faster than recording the show in real time)?


That depends on a lot of factors, including which Tivo you have and whether or not it is modified. Since the process can be unattended, however, the speed of transfer is not terribly important.


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

Thanks for all the good feedback. I'm probably going to need to chat with Tivo, as well.

I'm going to answer some of the questions (and ask a few more).

I don't know what a "digital outlet" is or a "tuning adapter" -- I probably need to find someone who has Tivo *and* Cablevision.



lpwcomp said:


> Are you sure about that? Like all other non-DirecTV TiVos, a TP is always recording something. If not recording specific program(s), it is recording "live" TV. A TP has two 30-min "live" buffers which are recording whatever the two tuners are set to. When you are watching "live TV", you are actually watching from one of these buffers. You can record two channels at once while watching something else you have previously recorded. You could also be transferring something to/from another TiVo or your PC.


Hmmm - it sounds like I'd be getting at least what I wanted (and maybe more) - Could I (for example) tape one show on Fox and one show on NBC, while watching Monday Night Football live? If so - I'm good with that.



lpwcomp said:


> Again, based on posts of other Cablevision customers, you may not be able to transfer anything but shows recorded from local channels. Apparently, Cablevision is setting the CC1 bit for most channels. If this bit is set, you cannot transfer the file. At least, that is my impression.
> 
> The TP has a built-in wired Ethernet adapter.


Are "local channels" the NBC, FOX and CBS, etc.? If so - that's fine with me. And, I have a router right near the TV (although, I'll need to bring another line into my Bedroom, unless I decide to put a Tivo in the basement...



lrhorer said:


> It sounds to me like you are talking about a Premier, and uploading content to a PC. I do not recommend the Premier, especially not for someone in your position. I thnk a better choice might definitely be an S3 or a THD. Both can be bought on e-bay, sometimes with lifetime service. Without lifetime service, the THD and S3 are less expensive per month than a Premier.


I can't buy an S3 or THD new, I suppose? No warranty, then, either. Are they "stable?" Why are they the better choice, though?

I quoted this next one in total, b/c there was a lot of interesting stuff:



lrhorer said:


> The hard drive in the TiVo is much bigger than that in the 8300HD, and you can upgrde to a *MUCH* larger drive for under $75. With a TiVo and an appropriately sized drive, space won't be an issue.
> 
> A large drive is so cheap ( NewEgg has 1.5T drives for $59.99 with free shipping), I still recommend you upgrade. That, plus if you upgrade the internal drive, then you can take the original drive and set it on a shelf as a backup in case the new drive fails. That way you can be back upa nd running in a matter of minutes.


How many hours of TV would the 1.5T drive give me? And, is that an internal drive or an eSata drive? (and, I'm assuming we're still talking about the S3, not the TP.



lrhorer said:


> II also don't recommend burning to DVD. That's slow and expensive. Offload to a PC, instead.
> 
> Yes, with one caveat: if your CATV provider sets the CCI byte on a program to anythng other than 0x00, you will not be able to transfer the program in question using an unmodified DVR. I believe your CATV company does this on everything but OTA channels. This is one major reason I do not recommedn a Premier. As of this time, no one has successfully modified a Premier to circumvent CCI byte settings. For details on modifying an S3 or THD, see the "other" TiVo website.
> 
> That depends on a lot of factors, including which Tivo you have and whether or not it is modified. Since the process can be unattended, however, the speed of transfer is not terribly important.


But, basically, that's the way to do it, if I want to offload to a DVD? Put it to the computer and then transfer it? I'd like to be able to leave in the morning and come back in the afternoon to have the shows transferred to DVD (however many will fit - 3-4, maybe?

Thanks again!


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lemur21 said:


> I don't know what a "digital outlet" is or a "tuning adapter" -- I probably need to find someone who has Tivo *and* Cablevision.


A "digital outlet" is just a receiver (TV, DVR, whatever) with digital service. Sone companies try to charge an extra outlet fee because the TiVo has 2 tuners. Some charge more for digital services than analog.

The CATV spectrum is quite finite, which means a traditional CATV lineup can only consist of a set number of channels and very limited numbers and types of interactive services. It's also quite wasteful of bandwidth, because every subscriber gets all the channels in the lineup, even if he is only watching one or two, or maybe not watching at all. To counter this limited and wasteful state of affairs, CATV engineers developed a system that does not send the entire spectrum to every subscriber in the city. Rather, each fiber node can be sent only the video streams being watched by the homes served by that node. This potentially allows the CATV company to offer an unlimited number of channels - even HD channels - and a vast array of interactive services. The system is known as Switched Digital Video. The only down side is that it requires bi-directional communications between the host and the headend. The TiVo is not a bi-directional host. It is only a receiver, and thus cannot by itself receive SDV channels. The Tuning Adapter is a device that allows the TiVo and other uni-directional devices (UDCPs) to receive SDV channels.

If the services tiers to which you subscribe do not have any SDV offerings, then you won't need one. Otherwise, you may not be able to see some number of channels in the tiers for which you are paying.



lemur21 said:


> Hmmm - it sounds like I'd be getting at least what I wanted (and maybe more) - Could I (for example) tape one show on Fox and one show on NBC, while watching Monday Night Football live? If so - I'm good with that.


No, not with just a single TiVo. You can record two things and download a 3rd from the internet. You can watch any one of the three, or watch something recorded earlier. You can also wait 16 minutes ( 8 for a 30 minute show) after one of the shows starts recording to start watching so you can fast forward through all the commercials.



lemur21 said:


> Are "local channels" the NBC, FOX and CBS, etc.? If so - that's fine with me. And, I have a router right near the TV (although, I'll need to bring another line into my Bedroom, unless I decide to put a Tivo in the basement...


Anything that is broadcast over the airwaves in the market local to your CATV franchise.



lemur21 said:


> I can't buy an S3 or THD new, I suppose?


No. Neither one is being manufactured any longer.



lemur21 said:


> No warranty, then, either.


Probably not. That's up to whoever sells it to you.



lemur21 said:


> Are they "stable?"


Yes.



lemur21 said:


> Why are they the better choice, though?


1. They are less expensive.

2. The Premier has few significant features they lack. The only one I consider significant is network speed.

3. They can be hacked. For more about this, see the "other" TiVo forum.



lemur21 said:


> How many hours of TV would the 1.5T drive give me? And, is that an internal drive or an eSata drive? (and, I'm assuming we're still talking about the S3, not the TP.


Well, that depends on more than one factor. DVR_Dude is selling drives up to 2T in size that can be fully used by an S3. Otherwise, if your S3 i s not hacked, it can only make use of 1.2T of that 1.5T drive. That's about 150 hours of HD material or over 700 hours of SD material. An unhacked THD can make use of the whole 1.5T if the user employs JMFS to upgrade the drive.

And yes, I am talking about upgrading the internal drive. IF you leave the internal drive alone, and go with an external drive, bump these numbers by 160G for a THD or 250G for an S3, or 1T for a THD XL.



lemur21 said:


> But, basically, that's the way to do it, if I want to offload to a DVD? Put it to the computer and then transfer it?


It's the fastest and easiest way, yes, plus you can edit the video before burning.



lemur21 said:


> I'd like to be able to leave in the morning and come back in the afternoon to have the shows transferred to DVD (however many will fit - 3-4, maybe?


On a DVD? 3-4 what? It's variable depending on a lot of factors.


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

Thanks Lrhorer...

I chatted with a woman from Tivo *and* a rep from Cablevision tonight. Here's what I learned.

1. Cablevision does require a tuning adapter -- it's complimentary, however.
2. I already pay the $1.50 digital outlet fee.
3. There's a $2 fee for a cablecard

4. Yes, I had misread Cablevision - basically, I can watch a recorded show and tape two others (not watch a LIVE show).

5. I don't know what the "other" Tivo forum is  I have questions re: this, but I don't know if it's relevant to what I need.

Basically, I was told (by both) that I can transfer the show to the PC (using the software -- or another one, I suppose). Then, I can burn it to a DVD using Roxio (or something like that). It's faster than real-time -- 15 minutes to transfer an hour-long show to the PC.

I was also told (by Tivo) to check whether Cablevision has channels with a copy protection that disallows recorded shows to be transferred to other devices. The rep from Cablevision said that wasn't the case -- once the show has been recorded on the Tivo device, it's on the hard drive -- since it's being transferred by ethernet, there's no problem with that.

If this is the case, all I need to do is drop another ethernet cable into another room, and I think I'm ready for the switch.

I said 3-4 shows -- is that ambitious? How many shows can I fit on a DVD RW? I'd thought it would take about 3-4... could it be more?

With that in mind -- the Premiere does seem like a good machine (the 'comparison' chart on Tivo's site shows an awful lot of differences from predecessors). And there's a warranty (although, does anyone get the extended warranty? If you're gentle with your machines (as I am) - is it necessary?)

Thanks again!


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

lemur21 said:


> 5. Size of the hard drive doesn't matter, since I intend to offload the programs onto DVD (until such time as I either cut down the shows I watch, or I catch up with my watching). So, the first question is -- can I directly record from the Tivo hard drive onto a DVD-Recorder? And, if so, can I set it up to record multiple shows in a row (so I can leave in the morning and return in the evening, to have a DVD fully completed)?


I have a hard drive/DVD recorder, and use it daily. (mostly recording to the hard drive, including a lot of stuff recorded originally on the Tivo).

However, I suggest you instead look at offloading to an external hard drive. Through a computer that is.

That way, you get the ORIGINAL quality recording (not downrezed to SD quality), and can then send them back to your Tivo when you want to watch them.

For things you want to KEEP, sure, burn them to DVD.. But that might even be easier on the computer (though my DVD recorder is one of the best -- XS32, that has sophisticated editing capabilities).

But if all you're doing is trying to save more recordings for later, I really suggest just getting a big external drive (3 TB drives are in the $120 range now.. that's the bare drive, so add a bit for a box or an external dock) and offload to that.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lemur21 said:


> Thanks for all the good feedback. I'm probably going to need to chat with Tivo, as well.
> 
> I'm going to answer some of the questions (and ask a few more).
> 
> I don't know what a "digital outlet" is or a "tuning adapter" -- I probably need to find someone who has Tivo *and* Cablevision.


Not sure what the official definition of a "digital outlet" is , but basically it is any device capable of receiving all of the digital channels. Examples are a digital STB or a TiVo.

A Tuning Adapter is an add-on device that enables a TiVo to receive SDV channels.



lemur21 said:


> Hmmm - it sounds like I'd be getting at least what I wanted (and maybe more) - Could I (for example) tape one show on Fox and one show on NBC, while watching Monday Night Football live? If so - I'm good with that.


Unless your TV can get ESPN w/o a cable box, can't be done. The TiVo only has 2 tuners. You would need another digital outlet, like a cable STB to do that.



lemur21 said:


> Are "local channels" the NBC, FOX and CBS, etc.? If so - that's fine with me. And, I have a router right near the TV (although, I'll need to bring another line into my Bedroom, unless I decide to put a Tivo in the basement...


Yes, locals are your local broadcast channels.



lemur21 said:


> I can't buy an S3 or THD new, I suppose? No warranty, then, either. Are they "stable?" Why are they the better choice, though?


Well, the warranty is only 90 days anyway, so... I think the main advantage is that the monthly subscription fee is lower. Personally, I wouldn't recommend an S3. For one thing, it requires two CableCARDs for both tuners to work. For another, I don't believe it can use all the space on even a 1.5 TB drive if you do the upgrade yourself.



lemur21 said:


> How many hours of TV would the 1.5T drive give me? And, is that an internal drive or an eSata drive? (and, I'm assuming we're still talking about the S3, not the TP.


On a TiVoHD, it is a max of @235 HD hours. It will vary, depending on resolution and compression of the transmitted video. Again personally, I would go with either a 1TB(157 hours) or 2TB(318 hours).



lemur21 said:


> But, basically, that's the way to do it, if I want to offload to a DVD? Put it to the computer and then transfer it? I'd like to be able to leave in the morning and come back in the afternoon to have the shows transferred to DVD (however many will fit - 3-4, maybe?


I'm gonna let someone else handle most of this one. I don't know what tools are available for automating this process. The only thing I have to say is that unless you convert it to a more compressed format, you would be lucky to get 1 hour of HD or 3 hours of SD digital on one single layer DVD.

I see that other people have chimed in while I was composing this but I'm gonna go ahead and post it.


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

mattack said:


> I have a hard drive/DVD recorder, and use it daily. (mostly recording to the hard drive, including a lot of stuff recorded originally on the Tivo).
> 
> However, I suggest you instead look at offloading to an external hard drive. Through a computer that is.
> 
> ...


Ooh - this is a great idea. Then, I don't need a DVD burner OR multiple DVDs. I can keep the 3 TB drive (and - if I fill that up (God forbid!) - I can always buy another one!).

How many hours can fit on a 3TB drive, y'think?

I don't much care about keeping things in native HD format though -- I'm more interested in maximizing space.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

You know what gets me? Hard drive storage is actually cheaper than DVD storage.


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

lemur21 said:


> Ooh - this is a great idea. Then, I don't need a DVD burner OR multiple DVDs. I can keep the 3 TB drive (and - if I fill that up (God forbid!) - I can always buy another one!).
> 
> How many hours can fit on a 3TB drive, y'think?
> 
> I don't much care about keeping things in native HD format though -- I'm more interested in maximizing space.


Does Cablevision not have any SD channels? I am only familiar with Comcast, but most, if not all, of the HD channels also have SD channels(digital, but SD).

For comparison, a 2 TB drive holds about 318 hours of HD shows. About 2800 hours of SD programming.


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

Nope - a while ago, cablevision did away with the SD versions (for example, CBS SD used to be "2" and HD was "702" -- too many people tuned in to '2" and complained they weren't getting the HD signal; so Cablevision turned anything with an HD signal into the default -- no way around it.

There's not even the option to record in SD as compared to HD, if you want -- and that's a shame, b/c I'd really prefer to watch these taped shows in SD.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

The smallest HD hour I currently have on a TiVo (last weeks "Rookie Blue") is 3.17GB. The four episodes of "Poker After Dark" are 4.8GB each.

One episode of 12 O'Clock high, which is digital but SD, 1.48GB


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

lpwcomp said:


> The smallest HD hour I currently have on a TiVo (last weeks "Rookie Blue") is 3.17GB.


My Rookie Blue from 8/11 is 8096MB. Smallest HD hour is Warehouse 13 at 4880MB.

With my TiVo reporting 237HD hrs for the 1.5TB drive, it seems to expect about 6330MB per HD hour.

Since the OP is asking what will fit on the 3TB drive on the PC, it's about 475 hrs of HD, un-rencoded. I'm curious, why the desire to archive so many hours of TV. We get behind a bit, but caught up between seasons, summer ending now, but fall starting in 3rd week of September.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> My Rookie Blue from 8/11 is 8096MB. Smallest HD hour is Warehouse 13 at 4880MB.


Looks like my local Comcast may compressing ABC quite a bit. Could be the local ABC affiliate. Some of their bandwidth is being used for a sub-channel to broadcast MeTV.

Warehouse 13 was 4.7GB.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lemur21 said:


> 3. There's a $2 fee for a cablecard


That's not too bad. I forgot to mention, and someone else pointed out that an S3 requires two CableCards to function fully. A TiVo HD only requires one CableCard if it is a multi-stream CableCard (M-card).



lemur21 said:


> 5. I don't know what the "other" Tivo forum is  I have questions re: this, but I don't know if it's relevant to what I need.


It's at deal database dot com slash forum.



lemur21 said:


> Basically, I was told (by both) that I can transfer the show to the PC (using the software -- or another one, I suppose). Then, I can burn it to a DVD using Roxio (or something like that). It's faster than real-time -- 15 minutes to transfer an hour-long show to the PC.


Most people recommend one of the versions of VideoRedo. An SD video will transfer somwhat faster than that, at least on an S3. An HD program will not. For HD content, you'll be doing fairly good to transfer at real-time speeds to the PC, even from an S3.



lemur21 said:


> I was also told (by Tivo) to check whether Cablevision has channels with a copy protection that disallows recorded shows to be transferred to other devices. The rep from Cablevision said that wasn't the case -- once the show has been recorded on the Tivo device, it's on the hard drive -- since it's being transferred by ethernet, there's no problem with that.


Don't trust the rep on this. Few, if any CSRs have even the faintest notion what the CCI byte is or when and where it applies. Being on the hard drive or transferring via Ethernet *HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT*.

I did a Google search for "CCI" and "CableVision", and it appears at least some of the systems are setting the CCI byte on many or possibly most channels. If this is the case, then believe me, you will not be able to transfer the show from an unmodified TiVo, and that means not from any Premier, period. What's more, even if your CATV provider does not set the CCI byte today, this does not mean they won't change their policy tomorrow. I'm on Time Warner Cable, whose CCI byte policies are the most aggressive in the nation. Four years ago the CCI byte was not set on any channels. Now it is set to 0x01 on everything but the locals. On an unmodified S3 class TiVo, neither TiVoToGo (TTG) nor Multi-Room Viewing (MRV) are functional.



lemur21 said:


> With that in mind -- the Premiere does seem like a good machine (the 'comparison' chart on Tivo's site shows an awful lot of differences from predecessors).


Other than speed, it has absolutely nothing over and above the S3 / THD that I consider worth much. The fact it cannot (as of yet) be modified means for me it would be little more than an expensive brick. Certainly if in fact none of the channels on your CATV system have the CCI byte set, then the limitations of the Premier may not be important to you at this time. I cannot in good conscience recommend it, though. I certainly am not going to buy one.



lemur21 said:


> And there's a warranty (although, does anyone get the extended warranty? If you're gentle with your machines (as I am) - is it necessary?)


It's not really about being gentle. It's about odds. If you rarely buy anything much in the way of electronics, and this would represent just about your only fairly large investment in electronic devices, then the loss of this unit might represent a loss of value significantly larger than the cost of the extended warranty. If, OTOH, you buy a fair amount of electronics, then the cost of all those extended warranties will far exceed the cost of replacing one or two failed units.

Indeed, that is principally how manufacturers make money on extended warranties - or at least honest manufacturers do. The cost to them of fixing or replacing a unit here and there is far less than the revenue obtained from the purchases of all the extended warranties.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> Looks like my local Comcast may compressing ABC quite a bit. Could be the local ABC affiliate. Some of their bandwidth is being used for a sub-channel to broadcast MeTV.
> Warehouse 13 was 4.7GB.


There is no such thing as a sub-channel on a QAM (CATV carrier). OTA carriers have sub-channels. A QAM is a digital bit stream composed of multiple timeslots. This is from memory, and I could be off by 1 timeslot, but with industry norm rate-shaping, the QAM can contain 12 SD channels, 1 HD channel and 6 SD channels, or 2 HD channels and 1 SD channel.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> Since the OP is asking what will fit on the 3TB drive on the PC, it's about 475 hrs of HD, un-rencoded.


Remember, too, that editing will recover quite a bit of space. If the program is recorded from network television, 16 minutes out of every hour are commercials. Add a 1 minute padding to the front and end, and that makes 18 minutes one can recover by editing a one hour video. Edit 4 videos, and now 4 videos can sit in the same space originally taken up by 3 of them.



JoeTaxpayer said:


> I'm curious, why the desire to archive so many hours of TV. We get behind a bit, but caught up between seasons, summer ending now, but fall starting in 3rd week of September.


The main reason would be to build one's library. I have over 2000 videos on my server - easily more than 3500 hours.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lemur21 said:


> Ooh - this is a great idea. Then, I don't need a DVD burner OR multiple DVDs. I can keep the 3 TB drive (and - if I fill that up (God forbid!) - I can always buy another one!).


Yes. The RAID array on my server has eight 3T drives configured as RAID6. That allows for more than 17T of storage.



lemur21 said:


> How many hours can fit on a 3TB drive, y'think?


About 450 in MPEG2 HD. Well over 2000 hours of SD.



lemur21 said:


> I don't much care about keeping things in native HD format though -- I'm more interested in maximizing space.


Recoding a video from HD to SD takes a very long time. If you are going to recode, I suggest keeping the display format and going with h.264 encoding in an MPEG4 container. This will save about 30% on space, and allow the video to transfer back to the TiVo up to 4x faster, especially on an S3 or THD.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> Remember, too, that editing will recover quite a bit of space. Edit 4 videos, and now 4 videos can sit in the same space originally taken up by 3 of them.


To edit, don't the files need to be re-encoded first?


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## yoheidiho (Mar 31, 2011)

lemur21 said:


> I was also told (by Tivo) to check whether Cablevision has channels with a copy protection that disallows recorded shows to be transferred to other devices. The rep from Cablevision said that wasn't the case -- once the show has been recorded on the Tivo device, it's on the hard drive -- since it's being transferred by ethernet, there's no problem with that.


Not true! Most initial tier Cablevision CSRs know nothing when it comes to Cablecards, Tuning Adapters, and especially DRM. Cablevision *DOES* set the CCI byte to 0x01 to premium channels, however, most channels are set 0x00.



lemur21 said:


> Nope - a while ago, cablevision did away with the SD versions (for example, CBS SD used to be "2" and HD was "702" -- too many people tuned in to '2" and complained they weren't getting the HD signal; so Cablevision turned anything with an HD signal into the default -- no way around it.
> 
> There's not even the option to record in SD as compared to HD, if you want -- and that's a shame, b/c I'd really prefer to watch these taped shows in SD.


Not true again! Cablevision only remapped the channels on the HD STBs. The SD channels remain, at least fo the time being. SD STBs still receive the SD chsnnel line-up but if you select channel 2 on a HD STB you really receive channel 702 although the STB displays it as "2."

Cablecards on Cablevision recieve both the SD and HD channel line-ups. you can watch/record either SD or HD feeds for the same program provided that both feeds are available. For instance, channels 7 and 707 provide SD and HD feeds, respectively.

I you want better info from a Cablevision CSR, you need to asked to be transfered to the Cablecard or Advanced Service Group. The first tier CSRs only know or are scripted on STBs. One thing to note is that you may get an Advanced Service CSR initially. It happens occasionally.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> To edit, don't the files need to be re-encoded first?


No. First of all, conversion from a .TiVo file to .mpg only requires a simple transcode, not a full recode. Secondly, VideoRedo can read, write, and edit .TiVo files directly.


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

I'm not sure why you're being discouraged from buying a Premiere, but since you seem to indicate you would like to have a new device with a warranty, you can get a new Premiere XL; and if you still need more space and don't want to open the Tivo and void your warranty, you can add a DVR expander: https://www3.tivo.com/store/accessories-networking.do#A00097

I have a TivoHD XL with a 500 GB DVR expander, and this setup works great for me. I used to record a lot to DVD's with my previous Tivo series 2 but now I rarely do that anymore since there is plenty of space on the Tivo. It's also easier to transfer shows wirelessly using Tivo Transfer (for Mac) and then record them to DVD from my Mac.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> There is no such thing as a sub-channel on a QAM (CATV carrier). OTA carriers have sub-channels. A QAM is a digital bit stream composed of multiple timeslots. This is from memory, and I could be off by 1 timeslot, but with industry norm rate-shaping, the QAM can contain 12 SD channels, 1 HD channel and 6 SD channels, or 2 HD channels and 1 SD channel.


I didn't say or even imply that there were QAM sub-channels. What I was saying was that rather than Comcast being responsible, it was the local ABC affiliate, i.e. OTA BROADCAST.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> No. First of all, conversion from a .TiVo file to .mpg only requires a simple transcode, not a full recode. Secondly, VideoRedo can read, write, and edit .TiVo files directly.


Good to know. When I've needed to make an edited DVD, I've been wasting more time than I should be. Thanks!


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## LI-SVT (Sep 28, 2006)

Cablevision does set the copy once flag for many of the channels. What channels are you looking to record and move via Tivo desktop?
Also the remapping of the HD channels does not apply to cable card devices. For example with a Tivo channel 2 is CBS SD and 702 is CBS HD.


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

Hi all -- sorry to not have responded earlier.

So, when I called Cablevision last night, after the rep answered my questions about recording to DVR, once I started asking about Tivo, she transferred me -- I'm assuming to the Cablecard division. That's who told me that the stations weren't copy-protected.

I've read online that Cablevision only flags those networks that have requested it.

This seems to be the only obstacle -- everything else, I love. I love that I'll be able to record in SD. I love that I can back up to an external drive off my pc (and, that I can edit out commercials, etc.) - and that I can then shoot that edited version back to my Tivo, when I'm ready/able to watch it.

But, I *need* to know that I can transfer the programs. It seems that I should be able to -- that's mainly the bread-and-butter for Tivo, I think.

I'm not looking to move any premium channels - it'll be, mainly, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CW, FX, Food Network, Bravo and maybe some MTV.

*So - what, specifically, should I ask and whom, specifically, should I ask from Cablevision to ensure that I *can* do what I need to do*... I need to make certain that I'm not blowing $300 on something that is no better than my current DVR.

Is there anyone on here from Long Island? 

I probably would opt for a re-furbed Premier ($80 compared to $100) and then, with the 3-year warranty, it ends up being only $120. And, since I want two of them - I only need to drop an ethernet line into the other room.

So - if I can get an affirmative response that, in fact, I *can* transfer stuff from my Tivo to my PC, I'll be golden....

And - I'm not opposed to switching to Fios, if this is the case. Assuming they DON'T block the transfer......

Thanks again!


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

lemur21 said:


> Hi all -- sorry to not have responded earlier.
> 
> So, when I called Cablevision last night, after the rep answered my questions about recording to DVR, once I started asking about Tivo, she transferred me -- I'm assuming to the Cablecard division. That's who told me that the stations weren't copy-protected.
> 
> ...


Just get fios and be done with it. You won't have to worry about any of these issues that you are getting confused about. Fios doesn't have copy flags and you won't have to deal with tuning adapters or outlet fees or any other nonsense.


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## yoheidiho (Mar 31, 2011)

lemur21 said:


> I'm not looking to move any premium channels - it'll be, mainly, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CW, FX, Food Network, Bravo and maybe some MTV.


You should be fine.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Aero 1 said:


> Just get fios and be done with it. You won't have to worry about any of these issues that you are getting confused about. Fios doesn't have copy flags and you won't have to deal with tuning adapters or outlet fees or any other nonsense.


That's not the best advice in the world, if you ask me. I'm not saying he should not go to FIOS. By all accounts they provide very good service. He should not rely strictly on having FIOS to meet his needs in the future, however. Just ask any of the people on systems that Verizon sold to Frontier. For that matter, there is nothing to prevent Verizon from deciding to copy protect all its channels except the locals tomorrow. It also won't help him if he has to move to another city in six months. The unexpected can easily happen. If it does, and he has a Premier, he may be hosed.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lemur21 said:


> So, when I called Cablevision last night, after the rep answered my questions about recording to DVR, once I started asking about Tivo, she transferred me -- I'm assuming to the Cablecard division. That's who told me that the stations weren't copy-protected.


Personally, I would not trust them.



lemur21 said:


> I've read online that Cablevision only flags those networks that have requested it.


Time Warner Cable publicly says the same thing through its web site, its correspondence, and through its CSRs. It is an out-and-out lie.



lemur21 said:


> This seems to be the only obstacle -- everything else, I love. I love that I'll be able to record in SD. I love that I can back up to an external drive off my pc (and, that I can edit out commercials, etc.) - and that I can then shoot that edited version back to my Tivo, when I'm ready/able to watch it.
> 
> But, I *need* to know that I can transfer the programs. It seems that I should be able to


With a modified S3 or THD, you can, irrespective of the shenanigans of the CATV company. With a Premier, you are at the mercy and whim of whoever owns your CATV system this month.



lemur21 said:


> I'm not looking to move any premium channels - it'll be, mainly, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CW, FX, Food Network, Bravo and maybe some MTV.


The locals won;t be a problem. The rest...??

I think there is also a very good chance that as you become more used to transferring shows, you may find yourself archiving more and more material from more and more channels.



lemur21 said:


> *So - what, specifically, should I ask and whom, specifically, should I ask from Cablevision to ensure that I *can* do what I need to do*... I need to make certain that I'm not blowing $300 on something that is no better than my current DVR.


Even without TTG and MRV, the TiVo is much, much better than your current DVR. I agree, however, that a lack of ability to transfer content off the DVR is a deal breaker... big time. That's why I cannot recommend the Premier. Even if in your particular circumstances it can do so today, it might not be able to do so tomorrow.



lemur21 said:


> And - I'm not opposed to switching to Fios, if this is the case. Assuming they DON'T block the transfer......


Right now, Verizon FIOS does not. Several hundred thousand subs in the Northwest said the same thing... until Verizon dumped those systems and sold to Frontier. The channels were all copy protected in about a month.


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

Although -- now that I'm thinking about it.....

Just the fact that the Tivo CAN record in SD is probably worth it.

So, here are my thoughts.

1 - with the Premier, I can have it here tomorrow. I can purchase two of them, with lifetime access, and a 3-year warranty, and basically, I'm paying nothing for the service after the first two years (just dividing the lifetime plan by the monthly cost -- it's paid for after two years, and with a 3-year warranty, well, why wouldn't you do that?)

2 - is anyone saying the Premier can't/won't be modified?

3 - if Cablevision DOES start blocking, I can always move to Fios (or back again).

4 - Worst case, if both block the transfer, as long as Tivo can still record in SD, I'm fine -- I can hook up a 3TB eSata drive to the Tivo and get 2000 hours of SD recording (per machine) -- MORE than I'll ever need.

5 - if both block the transfer AND take away the option to record in SD, I don't need to worry about it - cuz I'll be in jail for killing someone, I think! 


Does that all make sense? I think - from a convenience factor, the premiere (and I can buy refurbed ones for $20 less) makes sense, because I can get the warranty which makes the lifetime subscription more economical. If I get an S3 (which takes two cablecards) or an HD (is that an S2?) - I have to find *two* of them (and, it's not as though the secondary market has those at really, really cheap prices....)

I do have an email out to a friend who has four Premieres and the Cablevision service on Long Island -- I just need to see if he can transfer to his computer. He seemed to say he could; but he didn't answer my question directly (maybe he moonlights as a Cablevision CSR (???))


Interestingly, checking on craigslist - someone is selling Three TiVo series 2 DVRs for $35 (all) -- I'm sure people will say that's worth it (for my perspective). Obviously, I'll still need service (these don't have lifetime); I'll have no warranty; and they would need to be modified (I'm sure). -- I did check that "other" forum, and the modification process sounds WAY above what I'd ever feel comfortable doing though. I'd thought it was simple firmware/software upgrades; once it gets into actually manipulating components, I'm leery. Hell, I won't even root my android phone!


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## dwit (May 5, 2004)

lemur21 said:


> 4 - Worst case, if both block the transfer, as long as Tivo can still record in SD, I'm fine -- I can hook up a 3TB eSata drive to the Tivo and get 2000 hours of SD recording (per machine) -- MORE than I'll ever need.


As far as *external* drives go, the largest capacity drive that the Premiere(or any Tivo for that matter) is designed to handle is only 1 TB. An exception is the very expensive 2 TB + 2 TB drive kits sold by weaknees.com(and maybe others).

Practically speaking, (at this time)the maximum total capacity for Premiere(or any Tivo) is 2 TB. That can be a single 2 TB internal drive(unsupported, self modification), or a 1 TB internal plus a 1 TB external. Only the WD DVR Expander external drives work with Tivo in a "plug and play" manner. Other external set ups will require reconfiguring the Tivo hard drive on a computer.

If you will not be comfortable cracking open your Tivo and PC, your options are the regular Premiere with the 320 GB drive + a 1 TB external hard drive, or the very expensive PremiereXL with the 1 TB internal drive + a 1 TB external drive.

Again, according to Tivo's *approximations*, the storage capacity of the 2 TB drives is 317 hours HD or about 2800 hours SD.

This is how I understand things, as of now. Things change though, sometimes rapidly. Some of the above may be out of date, or just plain wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, this is essentially the way things are, right now.


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

OK - but, even if I purchased a cheapie 1 TB drive for each of my two Tivos -- that still gives me about 1400 hours on each (way more than I need) - and if things change, and I need more space, I'll assume I can always disconnect the first drive and hook up a second.

My assumption is that the first drive would still only be playable on that first Tivo (that it was married to) - but, if -- for example -- the first drive failed, I can't imagine that each box can only *ever* have one drive that it's linked to (at one time, yes, but I'd assume you could always archive an older box and put a new one on -- pain-in-the-ass, to be sure....)

Even still, my goal, right now, is to get it off the Tivo onto the PC, edit it and send it to an external drive off the PC (not to watch on the PC, but to save and send back to the Tivo when I'm ready/able to watch it). The concept of a DVR expander is really only a safeguard to prevent me having a giant brick.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

lemur21 said:


> I'll assume I can always disconnect the first drive and hook up a second.


To be clear, when TiVo has an external drive attached it treats storage as one big drive. Pull the drive and you lose the recordings. The simple (it is, I did it) update to a 2TB internal drive is preferred- then you have a go to drive on the shelf if you have a disaster with the new drive.

I never buy into the "insurance" - it is offered because it is a cash cow and are rarely used. If you have a drive on the shelf, the main component which can fail on the TiVo, you have better warranty coverage, a 10 minute fix! However- to each their own.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lemur21 said:


> Just the fact that the Tivo CAN record in SD is probably worth it.


It doesn't "record in SD". Analog signals are converted to digital with variable, user configurable resolution. Digital signals are simply stored as-is.



lemur21 said:


> 1 - with the Premier, I can have it here tomorrow. I can purchase two of them, with lifetime access, and a 3-year warranty, and basically, I'm paying nothing for the service after the first two years (just dividing the lifetime plan by the monthly cost -- it's paid for after two years, and with a 3-year warranty, well, why wouldn't you do that?)


Personal preference. It costs more up-front.



lemur21 said:


> 2 - is anyone saying the Premier can't/won't be modified?


No one has successfully done so. It's a much more difficult proposition than the S3 and THD, and if ever successful, more expensive.



lemur21 said:


> 4 - Worst case, if both block the transfer, as long as Tivo can still record in SD, I'm fine -- I can hook up a 3TB eSata drive to the Tivo and get 2000 hours of SD recording (per machine) -- MORE than I'll ever need.
> 
> 5 - if both block the transfer AND take away the option to record in SD, I don't need to worry about it - cuz I'll be in jail for killing someone, I think!


I'm not sure why you are so thrilled with SD. The quality is poor. For me it's unwatchable. In any case, the days of SD broadcast are definitely numbered. Within a few years, all channels are likely to be HD.



lemur21 said:


> Does that all make sense? I think - from a convenience factor, the premiere (and I can buy refurbed ones for $20 less) makes sense, because I can get the warranty which makes the lifetime subscription more economical.


I don't know how you figure that. An extended warranty doesn't get you anything unless the unit fails, which isn't terribly likely.



lemur21 said:


> If I get an S3 (which takes two cablecards) or an HD (is that an S2?)


No, the TiVo HD is a newer model than the S3. It was less expensive at market, and lacked a few minor features of the S3. (It has no OLED display and the remote is not backlit and is a little inferior to the Glow remote.)



lemur21 said:


> - I have to find *two* of them (and, it's not as though the secondary market has those at really, really cheap prices....)


I'm not sure what you mean. THDs with lifetime service are splattered all over e-bay for $160.



lemur21 said:


> Interestingly, checking on craigslist - someone is selling Three TiVo series 2 DVRs for $35 (all) -- I'm sure people will say that's worth it (for my perspective). Obviously, I'll still need service (these don't have lifetime); I'll have no warranty; and they would need to be modified (I'm sure). -- I did


No, S2 TiVos do not need to be modified to transfer videos, but they also don't do digital. If your CATV offering has no analog channels (or not the ones you want), then you will have to have a leased STB to receive the channels. You also will only be able to record one thing at a time per DVR.



lemur21 said:


> check that "other" forum, and the modification process sounds WAY above what I'd ever feel comfortable doing though. I'd thought it was simple firmware/software upgrades; once it gets into actually manipulating components, I'm leery. Hell, I won't even root my android phone!


I definitely recommend having the hardware modified for you. I'm an expert, and I did. It's a simple modification, but re-working SMD components can be tricky unless you have an SMD re-working station.


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> It doesn't "record in SD". Analog signals are converted to digital with variable, user configurable resolution. Digital signals are simply stored as-is.


From what I'm reading, though - even though Optimum broadcasts both channels 2 and 702 as CBSHD, the Tivo will read 2 as SD and 702 as HD.



lrhorer said:


> I'm not sure why you are so thrilled with SD. The quality is poor. For me it's unwatchable. In any case, the days of SD broadcast are definitely numbered. Within a few years, all channels are likely to be HD.


Remember - up until a week ago, I was still watching everything on VHS recordings. For me, it's a storage concern.



lrhorer said:


> I don't know how you figure that. An extended warranty doesn't get you anything unless the unit fails, which isn't terribly likely.


I'm figuring it this way. If I have the extended warranty, I'm *guaranteed* to have Tivo service for at least three years (because that's how long the machine is guaranteed).

Let's say I had one machine. It's $20 a month for service or $500 for lifetime. $500 is only 25 months of $20 service, so -- effectively, after 25 months, the remaining 11 months (which I'm guaranteed) are "free" -- and, anything past that is gravy. The warranty ensures you'll get three years out of the machine, which makes the lifetime service more economical. If the lifetime were, say $1000, it wouldn't be (that would be 50 months)



lrhorer said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. THDs with lifetime service are splattered all over e-bay for $160.


I didn't even check ebay; I checked craigslist. I can look there now.



lrhorer said:


> No, S2 TiVos do not need to be modified to transfer videos, but they also don't do digital. If your CATV offering has no analog channels (or not the ones you want), then you will have to have a leased STB to receive the channels. You also will only be able to record one thing at a time per DVR.


OK - so, basically, the ONLY option for me, then (if I don't want two cablecards) is the Tivo HD?



lrhorer said:


> I definitely recommend having the hardware modified for you. I'm an expert, and I did. It's a simple modification, but re-working SMD components can be tricky unless you have an SMD re-working station.


I don't, and I'm certainly not an expert. Are there people who readily advertise that they do this? And, what type of cost is involved?

Mainly, right now, I'd just like to find out though - what I need to ask of Cablevision (and Fios, I guess) to ensure the channels I want aren't blocked. Who should I ask (i.e., what department should I ask to speak with), and how should I phrase the question, specifically?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lemur21 said:


> From what I'm reading, though - even though Optimum broadcasts both channels 2 and 702 as CBSHD, the Tivo will read 2 as SD and 702 as HD.


That sounds right. I don't know specifically, of course, but the S3 and above can all receive whatever digital channels are there. If they are SD, then they are SD. You probably won't be able to record any analog channels that have digital duplicates - regardless of the resolution - unless you remove the CableCard. Most CATV systems map all their digital channels over the top of the analog version.



lemur21 said:


> Remember - up until a week ago, I was still watching everything on VHS recordings. For me, it's a storage concern.


OK, but that's mostly a thing of the past. A VHS tape could hold at most 8 hours at the poorest resolution. A 2T drive can hold about 300 hours of 1080i or 720p HD stored as MPEG2. It can hold reasonably 30% - 100% more if the videos are MPEG4.



lemur21 said:


> I'm figuring it this way. If I have the extended warranty, I'm *guaranteed* to have Tivo service for at least three years (because that's how long the machine is guaranteed).


Assuming it isn't stolen or destroyed.



lemur21 said:


> Let's say I had one machine. It's $20 a month for service or $500 for lifetime. $500 is only 25 months of $20 service, so -- effectively, after 25 months, the remaining 11 months (which I'm guaranteed) are "free" -- and, anything past that is gravy. The warranty ensures you'll get three years out of the machine, which makes the lifetime service more economical. If the lifetime were, say $1000, it wouldn't be (that would be 50 months)


Well, OK. It's more a matter of risk than flat cost, though.



lemur21 said:


> OK - so, basically, the ONLY option for me, then (if I don't want two cablecards) is the Tivo HD?


No, the Premier also only requires one CableCard. (There's also the THD XL, which is basically just the regular THD with a native 1T hard drive and a Glo remote.) The S3 is the only one that requires 2 CableCards. With one CableCard on an S3, you can only record a single channel at once.



lemur21 said:


> I don't, and I'm certainly not an expert. Are there people who readily advertise that they do this? And, what type of cost is involved?


Go to the other forum and look up Omikron.



lemur21 said:


> Mainly, right now, I'd just like to find out though - what I need to ask of Cablevision (and Fios, I guess) to ensure the channels I want aren't blocked. Who should I ask (i.e., what department should I ask to speak with), and how should I phrase the question, specifically?


I would never try to guarantee that anyone a subscriber can get on the phone will know anything about anything. It is hit and miss. I doubt most anyone at the CATV company knows about the CCI byte, including possibly a fair number of the engineers. If you can speak with one of their IT engineers, then they should know, but no guarantees. They also are very likely to refuse to let you speak with an IT engineer. One never knows, though. If they can properly quote you the FCC regulations concerning OTA transmissions and the CCI byte without prompting, then you probably have someone on the line who knows what they are about. If they can't tell you, or if they tell you it's the TiVo's fault, or that they are forced by the channel owners to set the byte, then you have someone on the line who hasn't a clue. Demand to talk to someone else, and demand an engineer, not a CSR or CSR manager.


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> OK, but that's mostly a thing of the past. A VHS tape could hold at most 8 hours at the poorest resolution. A 2T drive can hold about 300 hours of 1080i or 720p HD stored as MPEG2. It can hold reasonably 30% - 100% more if the videos are MPEG4.


Definitely -- but, my point is, I'm not against viewing stuff in SD, at this point (and then, when I'm finally closer to caught up, I can switch to HD).

I just need to ensure that - unlike the Cablevision STB, where 2 and 702 both return CBSHD, the Tivo will view/record 2 in SD and 702 in HD. I believe that's been established. If nothing else, that gives me options (and I'm a big fan of options!) 



lrhorer said:


> I would never try to guarantee that anyone a subscriber can get on the phone will know anything about anything. It is hit and miss. I doubt most anyone at the CATV company knows about the CCI byte, including possibly a fair number of the engineers. If you can speak with one of their IT engineers, then they should know, but no guarantees. They also are very likely to refuse to let you speak with an IT engineer. One never knows, though. If they can properly quote you the FCC regulations concerning OTA transmissions and the CCI byte without prompting, then you probably have someone on the line who knows what they are about. If they can't tell you, or if they tell you it's the TiVo's fault, or that they are forced by the channel owners to set the byte, then you have someone on the line who hasn't a clue. Demand to talk to someone else, and demand an engineer, not a CSR or CSR manager.


Of course - I agree. What would I exactly ask, to ensure that the person I'm asking would have to either answer (correctly) or would say "I don't know" - so I could get to someone who does know?

I don't think I should just ask, "can I copy shows off my Tivo without a problem" - I need to be much more specific/technical to ensure the person has to either admit to not knowing, or can answer, truthfully...

Thanks! I think we're nearing the end! The biggest question is whether to do the HD (already modified) or the Premiere. Is the HD (unmodified) going to have the same issues as the Premiere, from my perspective? (i.e., if the channel is blocked from copying from the Premiere, it'll be blocked from copying from the HD?)


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

lemur21 said:


> Thanks! I think we're nearing the end! The biggest question is whether to do the HD (already modified) or the Premiere. Is the HD (unmodified) going to have the same issues as the Premiere, from my perspective? (i.e., if the channel is blocked from copying from the Premiere, it'll be blocked from copying from the HD?)


If you can verify (from a friend or neighbor with TiVo) that the channels aren't blocked, I'd get the standard Premiere and add an $80 2TB drive. The process was very simple to copy over the standard 320GB drive image, and you'll get 2700 or so hours of SD. I added a 1.5TB cause that was handy and it shows 237HD/2073SD. I have no archive issue as all shows I record are movable. But 320GB was about 40HD hours and it was pushing 95% after I got it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> If you can verify (from a friend or neighbor with TiVo) that the channels aren't blocked, I'd get the standard Premiere and add an $80 2TB drive.


It is certainly an option. It is not the one I would recommend. Obviously he is looking at the future, which he should. Any solution that includes a Premier stands a moderately good chance of not being able to continue to do what he wants over the 3 year life that he is projecting for the unit.

He certainly can choose that path, but it is one whose length is more uncertain, and that offers fewer of what I consider to be important features right now, this very minute, and only one that I consider of much importance not offered by an S3 or THD.

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference." -- Robert Frost


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lemur21 said:


> Definitely -- but, my point is, I'm not against viewing stuff in SD, at this point (and then, when I'm finally closer to caught up, I can switch to HD).


Surely. I just don't think you want to limit yourself unnecessarily. By doing so, you may well sail through the hazards unscathed, but there's also a reasonable chance that you may be very happy for some number of months or years only to suddenly find yourself quite unhappy.



lemur21 said:


> I just need to ensure that - unlike the Cablevision STB, where 2 and 702 both return CBSHD, the Tivo will view/record 2 in SD and 702 in HD. I believe that's been established. If nothing else, that gives me options (and I'm a big fan of options!)


I would give it a very high probability, especially given the other feedback in this thread. Most CATV system do have SD versions of all their analog channels. The TiVo allows the user to specify every channel they receive - or don't want to receive. It also automatically detects any lineup changes submitted by your CATV system to Tribune Media Services, by default turning on any new channels, shutting down any channels no longer offered by the CATV system, and moving any that get their channel numbers re-assigned.



lemur21 said:


> Of course - I agree. What would I exactly ask, to ensure that the person I'm asking would have to either answer (correctly) or would say "I don't know" - so I could get to someone who does know?
> 
> I don't think I should just ask, "can I copy shows off my Tivo without a problem" - I need to be much more specific/technical to ensure the person has to either admit to not knowing, or can answer, truthfully...


I would ask, "What can you tell me about the FCC regulations concerning the setting of the Copy Control Information byte in the digital bitstream delivered on your digital channels?" If they can't answer you, then ask for someone else - an engineer, please. If they do answer well enough, then ask, "How does your engineering staff choose to configure your local headend with respect to those regulations?"

By "well enough", I mean they should be able to tell you what the byte values are and what they mean, and exactly to which channels they apply. I would not mention TiVo, CableCards, or UDCPs at all, and don't let them go off on a sales pitch concerning how great their DVRs and STBs are.

When you ask how they choose to configure their local headend, they should talk about corporate policy, not contracts with the content owners.

Most importantly, ask for each person's name and employee number. Make it very obvious that you are writing down the information for future reference. Say something like, "Hold on, I'm not a fast writer," or "Wait just a moment while I put that in my notes."



lemur21 said:


> Thanks! I think we're nearing the end! The biggest question is whether to do the HD (already modified) or the Premiere. Is the HD (unmodified) going to have the same issues as the Premiere, from my perspective? (i.e., if the channel is blocked from copying from the Premiere, it'll be blocked from copying from the HD?)


Yes, it will. The difference is, with the THD you can do something about it. I don't know how much luck you would have getting a pre-modified THD. 'An upgraded hard drive, certainly, and lifetime service is common enough, but a working, PROM modded THD or S3? Most people who have their TiVos modified keep them until they croak - or longer.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Lrhorer- One minor glitch in your reasoning. What makes you so sure that modded TivoHDs cannot be disabled? They have shut down rogue cablecard devices before. If the CATV providers know that one of the Cablecard authorized devices is compromised, there is nothing more than economics keeping them from deactivation of all TivoHDs. Or perhaps they can simply get the addresses of the hacked ones from Tivo. (Tivo knows your box is hacked) So far, to date none of this has happend but there are no guarntees about the future. Id say the likely hood of future DRM issues for either platform is about the same and more closely tied to the specific provider than the box.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

jcthorne said:


> If the CATV providers know that one of the Cablecard authorized devices is compromised, there is nothing more than economics keeping them from deactivation of all TivoHDs.


And FCC regulations. My THD has not been modified. I would venture to guess that most haven't been. There is no way they could justify punishing everyone for the actions of a few. Besides, what would their motivation be? By setting the CC1 byte, they have complied with any legal obligation they might have. There is no requirement for them to vigorously pursue possible copyright violations.



jcthorne said:


> Or perhaps they can simply get the addresses of the hacked ones from Tivo. (Tivo knows your box is hacked) So far, to date none of this has happend but there are no guarntees about the future. Id say the likely hood of future DRM issues for either platform is about the same and more closely tied to the specific provider than the box.


Assuming TiVo actually has this information, and that a cable provider asked for it, why would TiVo release it to them?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

jcthorne said:


> Lrhorer- One minor glitch in your reasoning. What makes you so sure that modded TivoHDs cannot be disabled? They have shut down rogue cablecard devices before. If the CATV providers know that one of the Cablecard authorized devices is compromised, there is nothing more than economics keeping them from deactivation of all TivoHDs. Or perhaps they can simply get the addresses of the hacked ones from Tivo. (Tivo knows your box is hacked) So far, to date none of this has happend but there are no guarntees about the future. Id say the likely hood of future DRM issues for either platform is about the same and more closely tied to the specific provider than the box.


I don't think this is any different than the software that is being sold to rip Blurays and DVD. Technically it's illegal to defeat the DRM. I doesn't seem like the authorities will pursue this, unless you try to distribute the content to other people. Personally, I wouldn't do it because it's only TV and it's not worth breaking the law, even if it's just a technicality.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

lpwcomp said:


> There is no way they could justify punishing everyone for the actions of a few.


DRM is punishment for everyone for the actions of a few. The thing to do is to boycott DRM, not surreptitiously defeat DRM and continue to fund it.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> DRM is punishment for everyone for the actions of a few. The thing to do is to boycott DRM, not surreptitiously defeat DRM and continue to fund it.


What the heck has that got to do with my point about what cable companies and TiVo would or would not do?


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

There are large numbers of older blu-ray players that no longer function because the DRM codes were compropmised. Many were not flash upgradeable. You forget the studios and the providers are mostly the same companies and work very closely together.

Tivo wants badly to be in that group. The mere threat by comcast to shut off all TivoHDs unless tivo lets them know which are hacked...well, I'll let you figure it from there.

Tivo does know which are hacked. They know which shows are DRMed and they know what shows are transferred off the tivo. Does not take much data mining to put the two together. Even hacked tivos stop HME and HMO functions without a subscription.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Nice couple of 'noids you have there.

Absent a federal subpoena, TiVo releasing that information to a third party would be a major violation of their privacy agreement. More likely, if Comcast threatened to "shut off all TiVo HDs", TiVo would laugh in their faces and quite possibly have them charged with attempted extortion - although probably not. It would be difficult for their attorneys to stop laughing long enough to take the threat seriously.

Neither modifying nor having a modified TiVo is a crime in and of itself. If it were, then people like *<redacted>* would be in jail. It isn't even prima facie evidence of the _*intent*_ to commit a crime. Since you can't show any actual harm, it is not even a tort nor evidence of one.

The number of modified TiVos is small, the number which would be used to enable the distribution of copyrighted material is even smaller. For Comcast to allocate resources to this issue would be stupid. Has Comcast acted stupidly in the past and probably will again in the future? Absolutely. But in this case, the risk/reward ratio is just too high.

If you truly believe that Comcast would actually "shut of all TiVo HDs" or even just the modified ones, thereby risking the very real possibility of severe civil penalties, then you really need to <*self censored to avoid possibly violating forum rules>*.

It could be argued that by setting the CC1 flag on content where it hasn't been requested by the copyright owner, cable providers that do so are violating at least the spirit of FCC regulations by preventing TiVo with MRV from continuing to be a true alternative to their "Whole-Home DVR". It would be interesting to see what would come out in the discovery process if TiVo sued them over this.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

lpwcomp said:


> It could be argued that by setting the CC1 flag on content where it hasn't been requested by the copyright owner, cable providers that do so are violating at least the spirit of FCC regulations by preventing TiVo with MRV from continuing to be a true alternative to their "Whole-Home DVR". It would be interesting to see what would come out in the discovery process if TiVo sued them over this.


Problem is, "Whole-Home DVR" most likely utilizes streaming as opposed to copying.
The cable companies could argue that they are following the spirit of FCC regulations by NOT making a copy of the content.
TiVo's current MRV method is to copy.

When (if) TiVo gets streaming between Premieres working, this argument is moot.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I don't believe there _*are*_ any FCC regulations regarding making a copy. I doubt the FCC takes position on streaming vs. transferring. Why should they? If anything, I would expect the FCC to frown on cable providers setting the CC1 flag on content absent a request from the content owner.

I put the probability that TiVo will officially release streaming on the Premiere at 50% max. You want that ability? Buy an Elite and some Preview boxes.

Getting back to the subject of this particular thread, implementing streaming between Premieres doesn't address it at all. The OP doesn't want the ability to watch recordings in multiple locations. He wants to archive.


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> If you can verify (from a friend or neighbor with TiVo) that the channels aren't blocked, I'd get the standard Premiere and add an $80 2TB drive. The process was very simple to copy over the standard 320GB drive image, and you'll get 2700 or so hours of SD. I added a 1.5TB cause that was handy and it shows 237HD/2073SD. I have no archive issue as all shows I record are movable. But 320GB was about 40HD hours and it was pushing 95% after I got it.


ANY 2tb internal drive? Doesn't look like Tivo sells a 2tb drive on its site....


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> I don't know how much luck you would have getting a pre-modified THD. 'An upgraded hard drive, certainly, and lifetime service is common enough, but a working, PROM modded THD or S3? Most people who have their TiVos modified keep them until they croak - or longer.


I'm assuming you meant a "modified" THD - not pre-modified. It sounds like you're saying I *would* be able to find a pre-modified HD; not one that has been modified.


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## lemur21 (Aug 24, 2008)

OK - well, we certainly got a little off-topic.

If I were able to buy two Premieres and put two 2tb internal drives in each, that should absolutely do the trick -- I'd still prefer to be able to take stuff off the Tivo to the computer and then, put it back to the Tivo -- and, *for now* it sounds like that would work (and no telling for how long). 

Based on what I'm taping, it doesn't sounds like there's *that* much of a risk of CBS, NBC, etc. getting a restricted flag (and, in truth, with the Tivo, I could always subscribe to netflix and stream the shows I want to watch -- so there seems to be options).

For now, I may opt for my original plan - two Tivos (and I can get Premieres - refurbed - for $80) and one external hard drive on my computer. I don't know about the warranty (sounds like these are pretty solid machines) and I don't know about the lifetime use (although, it seems like a no-brainer).

I know there's been some history of blocking channels -- and, upgrading to a 2tb internal drive would fix that for me -- that would be the next option (after potentially switching to Fios). It's just important that I have options.

Is there anything erroneous in my thinking NOW (not potentially later, but for now), or does this all make sense?

Chris


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> Nice couple of 'noids you have there.
> 
> Absent a federal subpoena, TiVo releasing that information to a third party would be a major violation of their privacy agreement. More likely, if Comcast threatened to "shut off all TiVo HDs", TiVo would laugh in their faces and quite possibly have them charged with attempted extortion - although probably not. It would be difficult for their attorneys to stop laughing long enough to take the threat seriously.
> 
> ...


You miss my point. I was not trying to expouse a 'holyer than thou' stance. just a discussion of what could happen and that neither are a given knowing this industry's past. The cablecards work in the tivoHD by the PERMISSION of CableLabs. If CableLabs were to decide the platform no longer meets the requirements for DRM security, the cable cards cease to function. There are no civil penalties to tivo. Sure, some lawyer might file class action against CableLabs, but it did not work against Sony for the BluRay mess. No sure thing there. The mere fact that the tivoHD HAS been hacked means it does not meet the CableLabs requiremnts.

I am not speaking of right and wrong here. Goodness knows I have my own rules to live by.

My point was only that suggesting to a new user that the safest route for the future is to purchase a used box on an outdated and no longer being developed platform might not be the only opinion on the subject. I would disagree and recommend he go with a liftime premiere box over the TivoHD for HIS current needs. It works for me and many others. Will it work in the future? who knows.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

lemur21 said:


> ANY 2tb internal drive? Doesn't look like Tivo sells a 2tb drive on its site....


You need to do some reading here on TivoCommunity but there is a sort list of recommended drives that are known to work and the software to do the upgrade is available here for free from the developer. But yes, a readily available WD, Hitachi or Seagate drive can be purchased and used to upgrade a Premiere for little cost.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

lemur21 said:


> OK - well, we certainly got a little off-topic.
> 
> If I were able to buy two Premieres and put two 2tb internal drives in each, that should absolutely do the trick -- I'd still prefer to be able to take stuff off the Tivo to the computer and then, put it back to the Tivo -- and, *for now* it sounds like that would work (and no telling for how long).
> 
> ...


Two Tivo Premieres, each with lifetime service and upgraded to 2tb drives sounds like an excellent plan for what you want. The lifetime is the better of the subscripting models if you can swing the up front cost. Over the years I have never had much trouble recouping my cost of lifetime subs as I upgrade from one generation tivo to the next. Monthly sub cost is money down the drain.

If you do this, buy one and sub it THEN buy the second and get the multi unit discount on the second sub.

You can only put ONE 2tb drive in each premiere at the moment. Development seems to point that a second 2tb may be possible at some future point. But don't bank on what is not available now.

It is VERY likely that you will NEVER have trouble transfering shows from the broadcast networks (NBC, CBS, ABC, WB, FOX) between premieres or to a PC. The problems come in with cable channels and premium channels.

Good luck with this and come back for help in getting the whole home system working for you.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

lemur21 said:


> ANY 2tb internal drive? Doesn't look like Tivo sells a 2tb drive on its site....


It's a DIY project. Using free software linked from another thread here. I don't think I'm the sharpest knife in the drawer, and assume if I can burn an ISO image and plug in the two drives, 90% of those here would have no problem doing it.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

the only way to currently get 4TB on one TiVo is through weaKnees. $799 for a pre-configured TiVo Premiere or $549 for an upgrade kit. That's a 2TB internal and a 2TB external.


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## wmelnick (Sep 28, 2007)

A little late perhaps but... I have Optimum Gold and I live on Long Island, technically Cablevision of Woodbury, but I live a bit east of there.

I did not read the whole thread but I think I have the gist of it.

- Cablevision is generally better than FIOS on LI.

- You can absolutely record either SD or HD. SD is mostly channels<600.

- You no longer need a tuning adapter. They moved the last of the channels off of SDV at the very end of last year. I returned both of mine and receive everything including ever movie channel they offer.

- Copyright bit. I do not have a ton recorded but based on what I have found, the ones protected are ones like: History channel, BBCAHD, Hallmark. 

That is just based on the suggestions folder of my premier as viewed from my Tivo XL. I can try specific channels for you - email me: warrenmelnick (at) gmail and I will be happen to run through some.

Aso, if you happen to catch this today, sellout.woot has refurbished premieres for $50 + $5 shipping.

Regards,
Warren


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## Player01 (Sep 14, 2011)

wmelnick said:


> A little late perhaps but... I have Optimum Gold and I live on Long Island, technically Cablevision of Woodbury, but I live a bit east of there.
> 
> I did not read the whole thread but I think I have the gist of it.
> 
> ...


Warren,

Are you certain about not needing a tuning adapter? I've noticed that I don't receive some movie channels in HD (803,804,812,813,816 - that I know of so far) and I thought it might just be because I don't have a tuning adapter.


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