# The Big Bang Theory [01/02/2014] - "The Hesitation Ramification"



## ScubaCat (Jun 26, 2003)

Oh dear.

Penny: Let's get married?
Leonard: What?
Penny: Leonard Hofstadter, will you marry me?
Leonard: Um....
Penny: Did you seriously just say "Umm..."?​
Also, I'm going to have to re-watch the ending where Sheldon was so supportive. I kept expecting it to be some kind of dream.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

He was being supportive to deliver the "Kick Me" sign 

Leonard should have said "Yes" and then dealt with it later, he did possibly the worst thing, which was hesitate.


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## ScubaCat (Jun 26, 2003)

That's right. I remember now. Even with the "bazinga" of the "Kick me" sign he was doing a much better than usual job of imitating someone who actually cared.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Ugh. Please don't make a huge deal of the 'Hesitation'. I wouldn't have said 'yes' to my depressed, incredibly drunken girlfriend either.

Sheldon exploring humor was dumb. His catch phrase, bazinga, is related to his humor, no?


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

Kind of a downer episode really. 

Did they really need to rip a scene right out of When Harry Met Sally?


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Maui said:


> Did they really need to rip a scene right out of When Harry Met Sally?


It's called an _homage_.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Did anybody catch the vanity card on this one? I thought it was very sweet.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

busyba said:


> Did anybody catch the vanity card on this one? I thought it was very sweet.


Eh, he probably cut the scene just so he could write the vanity card. 

But yes, that was a good one.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

busyba said:


> It's called an _homage_.


I realized that, but I still think it was rather a blunt, clumsy homage.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Yeah, this was a surprisingly down episode.

I agree with Billy above. In the past, Penny made a big deal out of Leonard proposing at an inappropriate time. Now, she's making a big deal when he doesn't accept HER inappropriately timed proposal? Seriously, I wouldn't have immediately accepted a proposal from an inebriated girlfriend in a bad emotional state either.

The Sheldon humor plot was just annoying... although for those in the audience still arguing that he has Asperger's, his overly literal nature here was good evidence of that. (I know, the show producers say he doesn't, but there are those who choose to ignore that.)


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## moose53 (Aug 30, 2011)

Well, this show has convinced me it's time to delete it from season passes.

The only good part was the blond laughing ... and, like you say, it was stolen.

It looks like they fired all of their writers.

Not funny. Irritating. Offensive. Inappropriate laugh track. Jeeze.

Barb


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I'm all for drunk proposals... at least while in Vegas where you can take proper advantage of them.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

moose53 said:


> ...Inappropriate laugh track...


[FAQ]Not a laugh track.[/FAQ]


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

busyba said:


> [FAQ]Not a laugh track.[/FAQ]


:up: I was about to post something equivalent.

While it was a bit of a down episode, I liked it, and I respected that they did some decent work in it.
I'm also 100% with Leonard that "umm" was the right direction of response to a drunken proposal but he'd have been wiser to say "this isn't the time, let's talk when you're sober"


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Eh, he probably cut the scene just so he could write the vanity card.
> 
> But yes, that was a good one.


I think they cut her part because she takes such a terrible 'selfy'. 
http://v.cdn.vine.co/r/thumbs/8E50C...pg?versionId=USZG04EePfv.kWxOKQcDisayg8CRPtCy

I think this episode had some good ideas for Penny to rethink her acting career and Sheldons' continuing attempts to understand normal humans, but they didn't really follow through. They did have some great lines though.

I am not really into Bernadette character, but did enjoy her saying over and over 'or maybe just stop talking' while in the car. And 'or just keep dating the possum' was even funnier.

What I can't understand is why NCIS is one of the top rated shows. That show is worthless.

Probably Penny won't remember anything about asking him to marry her so he will be off the hook.

I'm definitely not going to delete it from my season pass. I loved the last new one.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

replaytv said:


> I think they cut her part because she takes such a terrible 'selfy'.
> http://v.cdn.vine.co/r/thumbs/8E50C...pg?versionId=USZG04EePfv.kWxOKQcDisayg8CRPtCy


Good thing her knees are out of frame; they're probably way too sharp.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

busyba said:


> Good thing her knees are out of frame; they're probably way too sharp.


I can't tell you how many women I have thrown out of bed for that exact reason. I even make them pay their own cab fare home too.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

So where can we see Lexie's deleted scene?


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

ct1 said:


> So where can we see Lexie's deleted scene?


Is any deleted scene with a girl named Lexie good enough or does it have to be a BBT scene?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApAEisvoFNs[/media]


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Nitpicking a bit, don't really think she would only find out she was cut from the show when watching it. They would have told her agent weeks earlier.

-smak-


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> Nitpicking a bit, don't really think she would only find out she was cut from the show when watching it. They would have told her agent weeks earlier.


True, although to reality-nitpick on your reality nitpick, she wouldn't have an agent (does she on the show?)...


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> True, although to reality-nitpick on your reality nitpick, she wouldn't have an agent (does she on the show?)...


Would there really be a major studio production that would have an open call? I suspect they'd either go to individual actors' agents, or for more generic roles, go to Central Casting or similar agencies that serve actors without their own individual agents.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LoadStar said:


> Would there really be a major studio production that would have an open call? I suspect they'd either go to individual actors' agents, or for more generic roles, go to Central Casting or similar agencies that serve actors without their own individual agents.


Right, but somebody who's been in LA for ten years and gotten, what, one TV commercial, wouldn't have an agent.

Then again, as I think may have been pointed out once or twice, this isn't exactly a reality-based show.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Right, but somebody who's been in LA for ten years and gotten, what, one TV commercial, wouldn't have an agent.
> 
> Then again, as I think may have been pointed out once or twice, this isn't exactly a reality-based show.


I guess I'd still consider Central Casting et. al. to be agents. They're not your personal agent, but they are agents.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

They whiffed on the end of the "Harry/Sally" scene. I think the analogous end-line would have been an old lady at another table asking "What was so funny?"

--Carlos V.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

busyba said:


> Did anybody catch the vanity card on this one? I thought it was very sweet.


Crud, wonder why it's not on his website?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

replaytv said:


> What I can't understand is why NCIS is one of the top rated shows. That show is worthless.


It's amazingly and consistently one of the highest rated dramas out there, so clearly it fills a need for viewers.

FWIW it's one of my favorites, it's got great characters, interesting stories, a slightly different approach, and good actors IMO, it's like mac and cheese for viewing, one of those shows you just watch as comfort food, I always know I'll smile a few times, they do a good job making the viewer feel like they're part of the family, that's not easy to do.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

busyba said:


> Did anybody catch the vanity card on this one? I thought it was very sweet.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Right, but somebody who's been in LA for ten years and gotten, what, one TV commercial, wouldn't have an agent.
> 
> Then again, as I think may have been pointed out once or twice, this isn't exactly a reality-based show.


I think she's done more than just one commercial though:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2463367/

Facebook Page:https://www.facebook.com/lexie.contursi?fref=ts

Here's a pic for anyone curious:










Doh! Just realized you were probably talking about Penny! Never mind&#8230;


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

LoadStar said:


> I guess I'd still consider Central Casting et. al. to be agents. They're not your personal agent, but they are agents.


You guys sure can take the fun out of a episode with all the reality based comments. 

Sitcoms are about escapism, not presenting a story that will pass the test of reality. The episodes are only 22 minutes long and that amount of time isn't long enough to explain everything or make it fit reality.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

replaytv said:


> You guys sure can take the fun out of a episode with all the reality based comments.
> 
> Sitcoms are about escapism, not presenting a story that will pass the test of reality. The episodes are only 22 minutes long and that isn't long enough to explain everything or make it fit reality.


Welcome to what is obviously your first BBT thread!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

busyba said:


> Did anybody catch the vanity card on this one? I thought it was very sweet.


What did it say? my TiVo needs to be reset to record for 1 minute after I think. It stops just before the vanity cards pop up.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

betts4 said:


> What did it say? my TiVo needs to be reset to record for 1 minute after I think. It stops just before the vanity cards pop up.


It told the ironic tale of an actress whose small role in the episode was cut for time, through no fault or lack of ability of her own.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Unbeliever said:


> They whiffed on the end of the "Harry/Sally" scene. I think the analogous end-line would have been an old lady at another table asking "What was so funny?"


 Or, "I'd like to hear that joke!"


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

_Would_ an actor really be informed (either through an agent or directly or whatever) if their scene ended up on the cutting room floor for whatever reason? The actor gets paid for their work anyway, so it's not like they need an explanation as to why they're not getting a check.

I can't imagine there being someone who has the responsibility of comparing the list of actors who worked a project to the list of actors who actually made it to final cut, and then arrange notifications to the actors that are on one list and not the other.

Especially in movies, where a _lot_ of footage and people end up getting cut.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Joey Tribbiani worked a lot more than Penny does.

Greg


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I think it'd be funny if Penny got the Priceline commercial. It's not like the actual commercial has credits. They could show it, and say it's Penny in it, and all the guys would be excited she got to work with Shatner. Be kind of an in-joke and also have Penny's acting career move forward a bit.

Plus you get serious product placement time.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

I thought they were possibly going to do a crossover segment with NCIS since it's on the same Network. That would've been cool.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

bareyb said:


> I thought they were possibly going to do a crossover segment with NCIS since it's on the same Network. That would've been cool.


Still possible... I have a feeling that the next episode will follow directly from this one.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

busyba said:


> _Would_ an actor really be informed (either through an agent or directly or whatever) if their scene ended up on the cutting room floor for whatever reason? The actor gets paid for their work anyway, so it's not like they need an explanation as to why they're not getting a check.
> 
> I can't imagine there being someone who has the responsibility of comparing the list of actors who worked a project to the list of actors who actually made it to final cut, and then arrange notifications to the actors that are on one list and not the other.
> 
> Especially in movies, where a _lot_ of footage and people end up getting cut.


The thing is, they have to track it for residual payments on subsequent showings of episodes, not to mention DVD payouts, streaming, etc.

I had a group lunch last week and one of the persons that attended was a character actor who did a bit part on the Big Bang Theory last year.

As he put it, "Residuals, f**k yes!"


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

LoadStar said:


> Still possible... I have a feeling that the next episode will follow directly from this one.


I was kind of hoping for that too&#8230; And how cool would it be if Lexie showed up in the next episode too. I have a feeling being cut may turn out to be better for her career than if they'd aired the segment she was in.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

gchance said:


> Joey Tribbiani worked a lot more than Penny does.


He used the smell your farts technique.


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

moose53 said:


> Well, this show has convinced me it's time to delete it from season passes.
> 
> The only good part was the blond laughing ... and, like you say, it was stolen.
> 
> ...


Don't let the screen door hit ya where the good lord split ya...


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## The Spud (Aug 28, 2002)

vman41 said:


> He used the smell your farts technique.


And he had an agent.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Lots of congrats going out on her Instagram account. Pretty cool. 


__
http://instagr.am/p/it_GIWnCwc/


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

bareyb said:


> Lots of congrats going out on her Instagram account. Pretty cool.
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/it_GIWnCwc/


 Betts......you can read the vanity card in that link.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> Betts......you can read the vanity card in that link.


Thanks for the link and that is great that he did this for her.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

LoadStar said:


> I agree with Billy above. In the past, Penny made a big deal out of Leonard proposing at an inappropriate time. Now, she's making a big deal when he doesn't accept HER inappropriately timed proposal? Seriously, I wouldn't have immediately accepted a proposal from an inebriated girlfriend in a bad emotional state either.


Totally agree.



> The Sheldon humor plot was just annoying... although for those in the audience still arguing that he has Asperger's, his overly literal nature here was good evidence of that. (I know, the show producers say he doesn't, but there are those who choose to ignore that.)


If it quacks like a duck...


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

LoadStar said:


> ...The Sheldon humor plot was just annoying...


I agree; it was a time-filler at best.

The drunk proposal was funny because of what had happened before when Leonard had proposed...and, at least HE wasn't drunk at the time.

I think Penny's proposal would have been even more (in)appropriate if she was in the process of being arrested for a felony as well as being drunk...


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> I think Penny's proposal would have been even more (in)appropriate if she was in the process of being arrested for a felony as well as being drunk...


So... she's a felonious drunk?


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## QueenBee (Feb 26, 2002)

I thought the ending implied that maybe Penny's being drunk wasn't the only reason Leonard didn't say yes.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I think a bigger deal is being made about this marriage business than is needed. She was drunk, and once she sobers up I think she'll realize how stupid it was for her to propose. Leonard did the right thing and she'll see that.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> I think a bigger deal is being made about this marriage business than is needed. She was drunk, and once she sobers up I think she'll realize how stupid it was for her to propose. Leonard did the right thing and she'll see that.


That would be the reasonable response.

Never happen.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

QueenBee said:


> I thought the ending implied that maybe Penny's being drunk wasn't the only reason Leonard didn't say yes.


Absolutely. 
He choked and I think it surprised him.

Haven't TPTB said that they intentionally didn't give Sheldon Asperger's so that there wouldn't be 1000 arguments each week about how they were doing it wrong?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Cearbhaill said:


> Haven't TPTB said that they intentionally didn't give Sheldon Asperger's so that there wouldn't be 1000 arguments each week about how they were doing it wrong?


More like, they gave him Asperger's but refuse to admit it for that reason.

Which, for those who have followed our threads, is not an entirely insane tactic.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

QueenBee said:


> I thought the ending implied that maybe Penny's being drunk wasn't the only reason Leonard didn't say yes.


I didn't get that at all; my assumption was that he hesitated since she's a felon...


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Cearbhaill said:


> Absolutely.
> He choked and I think it surprised him....


Seriously, though (is that allowed in this thread?)....it could still have surprised him that he choked but still could have happened simply because she was drunk...I don't think there's any other reason he hesitated.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

QueenBee said:


> I thought the ending implied that maybe Penny's being drunk wasn't the only reason Leonard didn't say yes.





Cearbhaill said:


> Absolutely.
> He choked and I think it surprised him.


Ladies

With all due respect, you just don't know men well enough if you think he would pass on the opportunity to lock a woman like Penny down. He is a decent enough guy not to say yes while she is drunk, he is a guy though so if she had proposed to him without her being in a broken or drunken state he would have said yes in a heartbeat.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> Ladies
> 
> With all due respect, you just don't know men well enough if you think he would pass on the opportunity to lock a woman like Penny down. He is a decent enough guy not to say yes while she is drunk, he is a guy though so if she had proposed to him without her being in a broken or drunken state he would have said yes in a heartbeat.


This


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

I think Penny should give up on acting and revert to her tennis vocation. Then he would marry her. They we would get to look at her in skimpy outfits more! Or thinking of that, maybe she should take up beach blanket bikini volleyball!! 
[media]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/25/article-2135273-12C58A6D000005DC-185_634x824.jpg[/media]

[media]http://static03.mediaite.com/sportsgrid/uploads/gallery/kaley-cuoco-ryan-sweeting/screen-shot-2013-08-08-at-9-42-48-am.png[/media]


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> Ladies
> 
> With all due respect, you just don't know men well enough if you think he would pass on the opportunity to lock a woman like Penny down. He is a decent enough guy not to say yes while she is drunk, he is a guy though so if she had proposed to him without her being in a broken or drunken state he would have said yes in a heartbeat.


I actually agree with the women. In this episode we have Leonard revealing, perhaps even to himself, for the first time, that he doesn't really think Penny has what it takes to be an actress. She's not going to succeed. (Yes, he comes back later and says differently, but that's trying to fix it). She's a waitress. And he not only doesn't think she's smart, but thinks she's dumb. He likes her because she's pretty.

In the back of his mind, always, is the thought that this won't last. Whether that comes from his mother, or from his subconscious understanding of their differences, it's there. He's neurotic about it.

What does he see in Penny? She's beautiful and lets him have sex with her. I've seen no indication that he sees anything more. And that is not a basis for a marriage. In fact, I'm surprised the relationship has lasted as long as it has, but that's mostly because Leonard probably thinks he can't do any better right now.

I think he choked for subconscious reasons and didn't know why, but I don't think he actually wants to end up with Penny. He just doesn't want it to end yet, because he's still enjoying it.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

Yay Ereth- I agree 100%.

I don't think Leonard is in love with Penney- he is in love with the _idea_ of Penny.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

He's in lust with Penny.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Ereth said:


> I actually agree with the women. In this episode we have Leonard revealing, perhaps even to himself, for the first time, that he doesn't really think Penny has what it takes to be an actress. She's not going to succeed. (Yes, he comes back later and says differently, but that's trying to fix it). She's a waitress. And he not only doesn't think she's smart, but thinks she's dumb. He likes her because she's pretty.
> 
> In the back of his mind, always, is the thought that this won't last. Whether that comes from his mother, or from his subconscious understanding of their differences, it's there. He's neurotic about it.
> 
> ...


You're really reducing Penny's more appreciable assets.

Yeah, she is pretty. She also is supportive, outgoing, caring, and protective. All things that someone would find desirable in a mate. Leonard probably does think this is the best he is going to get, but if that is the case why would he have second doubts about settling for Penny, if he in fact sees himself as settling for her? Leonard has wanted Penny for years. He is happy with her. She is happy with him.

And Penny may not be as smart as the guys, but I would not call her dumb. There is plenty to like about her, physical attributes not withstanding.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Or put another way, would she be desirable to Leonard if she wasn't a ten on his scale of what he finds physically attractive? I think she would be. 

And let's not forget that she has gone out of her way to show an interest in things Leonard likes on several occasions. What has Leonard done for her? Watch a football game?


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## cannonz (Oct 23, 2011)

Shaunnick said:


> Or put another way, would she be desirable to Leonard if she wasn't a ten on his scale of what he finds physically attractive? I think she would be.
> 
> And let's not forget that she has gone out of her way to show an interest in things Leonard likes on several occasions. What has Leonard done for her? Watch a football game?


Only half of a game.


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> You're really reducing Penny's more appreciable assets.
> 
> Yeah, she is pretty. She also is supportive, outgoing, caring, and protective. All things that someone would find desirable in a mate. Leonard probably does think this is the best he is going to get, but if that is the case why would he have second doubts about settling for Penny, if he in fact sees himself as settling for her? Leonard has wanted Penny for years. He is happy with her. She is happy with him.
> 
> And Penny may not be as smart as the guys, but I would not call her dumb. There is plenty to like about her, physical attributes not withstanding.


I agree with the Senator from Tennessee. :up:


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## cannonz (Oct 23, 2011)

Shaunnick said:


> You're really reducing Penny's more appreciable assets.
> 
> Yeah, she is pretty. She also is supportive, outgoing, caring, and protective. All things that someone would find desirable in a mate. Leonard probably does think this is the best he is going to get, but if that is the case why would he have second doubts about settling for Penny, if he in fact sees himself as settling for her? Leonard has wanted Penny for years. He is happy with her. She is happy with him.
> 
> And Penny may not be as smart as the guys, but I would not call her dumb. There is plenty to like about her, physical attributes not withstanding.


All true, good example getting Sheldon's stuff back from bully.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I don't know, I think they have shown over the years a lot of how Penny has tried to assimilate herself into the group. But in the beginning they did show her with other friends - girls going out and people at a party - we haven't seen that in awhile. 

And people change and can grow. 

I think Leonard choked because he was shocked and surprised. He has asked her a couple times to marry and been rejected and he knew she was in a bad state of mind because of getting her scene cut. 

Now, maybe what he should do is propose to her once more.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

betts4 said:


> I don't know, I think they have shown over the years a lot of how Penny has tried to assimilate herself into the group. But in the beginning they did show her with other friends - girls going out and people at a party - we haven't seen that in awhile.
> 
> And people change and can grow.
> 
> ...


I think in the beginning Penny was just the HAWT chick across the hall. The fact that she has been with Leonard and the boys has been good for her _and_ them.

And Leonard proposing right now would be bad. Penny just had a major blow. Leonard has the right of it. It is not whether Penny would be a good actress, it is that there are hundreds of Penny's in LA trying to land that one job that launches them. Hopefully Penny sees that and either A) accepts that a break won't be easy to come by and it may not have anything to do with her ability, and therefore not hold it against herself so much, or B) decide she is capable of something else that can make her happy and move on.


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> I think in the beginning Penny was just the HAWT chick across the hall. The fact that she has been with Leonard and the boys has been good for her _and_ them.
> 
> And Leonard proposing right now would be bad. Penny just had a major blow. Leonard has the right of it. It is not whether Penny would be a good actress, it is that there are hundreds of Penny's in LA trying to land that one job that launches them. Hopefully Penny sees that and either A) accepts that a break won't be easy to come by and it may not have anything to do with her ability, and therefore not hold it against herself so much, or B) decide she is capable of something else that can make her happy and move on.


I would love for her to find that she has something completely new that she's really good at.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I think Penny does have all those qualities mentioned above. But I think Leonard pretty much stops looking for qualities when he sees her boobs.

Maybe his finding out that she is worth keeping for other reasons where this is all headed.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

eddyj said:


> I think Penny does have all those qualities mentioned above. But I think Leonard pretty much stops looking for qualities when he sees her boobs.
> 
> Maybe his finding out that she is worth keeping for other reasons where this is all headed.


Yes, exactly. I'm not knocking Penny, so much as pointing out that Leonard doesn't really see her as a real woman. She's a fantasy, someone he never in a million years would have expected to end up with. Even if she's absolutely awesome, he doesn't believe that the two of them are long term relationship. Leonards longest relationship is with Sheldon who is so much like Leonards mother that I wondered for a while if they were going to play swapped at birth or something.

I think he choked for many reasons, one of which is he doesn't see a future for him and Penny. And there are a lot of reasons for that, but at least one of them is that he doesn't see how he could end up with a woman like her.

I agree, Penny isn't the girl across the hall from the first season. She's no longer the slutty older sister from "8 Simple Rules" simply migrated to a new show. She's grown. She's been good for the guys, and they've been good for her, absolutely. But Leonard has probably grown the least of the 4 of them. And he has mommy issues (for particularly good reasons).

I have a hard time seeing Leonard being interested in Penny if her looks were gone, if she looked like Amy Farrah Fowler, for instance. Shaunnick disagrees. Ok. We'll find out where the story goes.

The thing I think is most interesting, though, is that while Leonard is enjoying his time with the super hot girl, at some point Penny is going to have to figure out what Leonard brings to the table. His neuroses, his lack of faith in her, these may make her realize that while Leonard may not be able to do better, she can. She doesn't need the super brain, but she does need someone who sees her for more than arm candy.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Leonard was just the bridge between the geeks and the common "man". He was the one that endeared the other more geeky, more colorful, characters to the audience. Now that people have accepted the others on their own his character has sort of fallen to the wayside and hasn't really grown like the rest of them have. Especially now that Penny has become friends with Amy and Bernadette and no longer needs Leonard to be part of the group. If Leonard were written out of the show I'm not sure if people would really even miss him.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

betts4 said:


> I don't know, I think they have shown over the years a lot of how Penny has tried to assimilate herself into the group. But in the beginning they did show her with other friends - girls going out and people at a party - we haven't seen that in awhile.
> 
> And people change and can grow.
> 
> ...


Their deal was that he would never propose again. If she wanted to get married, she should ask him.

Best thing for Leonard in this situation might have been to say yes, but not bring it up again, and see if she remembered.

That might hurt him if she doesn't, but not as much as the non-answer he did give.

-smak-


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Ereth said:


> Yes, exactly. I'm not knocking Penny, so much as pointing out that Leonard doesn't really see her as a real woman.<snip>


I disagree, and personally feel that this is reading way too much into the show.

(Insert "So, this is your first BBT thread, huh" joke here)


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Didn't she get married recently anyway?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

eddyj said:


> Maybe his finding out that she is worth keeping for other reasons where this is all headed.


That would be nice.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Ereth said:


> I actually agree with the women. In this episode we have Leonard revealing, perhaps even to himself, for the first time, that he doesn't really think Penny has what it takes to be an actress. She's not going to succeed. (Yes, he comes back later and says differently, but that's trying to fix it). She's a waitress. And he not only doesn't think she's smart, but thinks she's dumb. He likes her because she's pretty.
> 
> In the back of his mind, always, is the thought that this won't last. Whether that comes from his mother, or from his subconscious understanding of their differences, it's there. He's neurotic about it.
> 
> ...


I agree with you except for one thing.

Given Leonard's relationship with his mother, I wonder if he never expected to end up with anyone. There could be a deep-seated fear of commitment that has nothing to do with Penny.

So, to sum up:


fear of commitment because of his mom
not wanting to take advantage of Penny because she's drunk
being upset because she wouldn't say yes to him when she was sober, she's only asking now when she's drunk

Triple whammy. Plenty of reasons for him to say no and not really be able to articulate why.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

murgatroyd said:


> I agree with you except for one thing.
> 
> Given Leonard's relationship with his mother, I wonder if he never expected to end up with anyone. There could be a deep-seated fear of commitment that has nothing to do with Penny.
> 
> ...


I buy that. His mother truly messed him up, and he's never recovered from it. She's a terrible woman, regardless of her brilliant mind.

There's a recurring question of why Leonard puts up with Sheldon, and I think the answer is that he lived with his Mom for so long, Sheldon really isn't that unusual to him. I suspect that, in a way he'd be completely unaware of and unable to explain, he actually finds Sheldon somewhat comforting, a bit of crazy he can relate to.

Pete Townshend (of "The Who") once commented that he could do anything he wanted, and as long as Keith Moon was still crazier than he was, he knew he hadn't gone too far and gotten lost, and that once Keith passed, he lost that barometer, and did get too crazy. There wasn't anybody to compare himself to any more.

I think Sheldon is Leonards Keith Moon. Leonard, like a lot of socially awkward geeks, wants to feel normal, while maintaining his geek side. The normal life seems like an impossibility, but as long as Sheldon is out there, being Sheldon, Leonard can feel like he's not THAT bad. He's still this side of Sheldon, and there's a guide post that indicates how far he is from "normal".

Penny is part of that "normal" dream. And look - nobody expected Wolowitz to get married, right? And yet he did, and Leonard looks around and the girl he had the hots for back in episode one likes him and is his girlfriend, he's doing pretty good. He's somewhat "normal", and he's certainly not out in Sheldon-land.

But I still don't think he sees Penny for who Penny is. I think he sees the hot girl across the hall, and he sees the potential for "normal" and he conflates the two. As Cearbhaill said, he loves the "idea of Penny", the idealized version of her that he's created, not the real Penny. Real Penny is messy. She doesn't get most of the things he really loves. She tries, bless her, but she's never going to really love them the way he does. And she lives in a world that he can only barely glimpse. He understands her world less than she understands his.

And yeah, maybe I'm overthinking it. I do that. I'm rather Sheldon sometimes.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Leonard was just the bridge between the geeks and the common "man". He was the one that endeared the other more geeky, more colorful, characters to the audience. Now that people have accepted the others on their own his character has sort of fallen to the wayside and hasn't really grown like the rest of them have. Especially now that Penny has become friends with Amy and Bernadette and no longer needs Leonard to be part of the group. If Leonard were written out of the show I'm not sure if people would really even miss him.


I completely disagree. I think that other than Sheldon and Penny, he is the most critical component in that group. You could lose any of the others and still keep the right dynamics, but lose any of those three, and the show would totally change character.


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## AlphaDelta (Jan 9, 2007)

I understand Penny is disappointed her part was cut, but it wasn't all bad. She was cast on the #1 TV drama, was paid (we assume), and got some exposure inside the industry. What we don't know is why her part was cut.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Didn't she get married recently anyway?


Well, Kaley Cuoco got married on Dec 31st, if that's what you mean.

As for Penny, I'm not sure if the Vegas 'wedding' was ever finally resolved.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

eddyj said:


> I completely disagree. I think that other than Sheldon and Penny, he is the most critical component in that group. *You could lose any of the others and still keep the right dynamics, but lose any of those three, and the show would totally change character*.


This.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

AlphaDelta said:


> I understand Penny is disappointed her part was cut, but it wasn't all bad. She was cast on the #1 TV drama, was paid (we assume), and got some exposure inside the industry. What we don't know is why her part was cut.


We ALL know why she was cut; she's a felonious drunk...

...not to be confused with Thelonious Monk...


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Ereth said:


> But I still don't think he sees Penny for who Penny is. I think he sees the hot girl across the hall, and he sees the potential for "normal" and he conflates the two. As Cearbhaill said, he loves the "idea of Penny", the idealized version of her that he's created, not the real Penny. Real Penny is messy. She doesn't get most of the things he really loves. She tries, bless her, but she's never going to really love them the way he does. And she lives in a world that he can only barely glimpse. He understands her world less than she understands his.


Yeah, I think Cearbhaill is dead on.

Re: overthinking things: I'm probably the only one here who was watching the episode and thought:

_Flirting with Mark Harmon? WTF? Gibbs likes redheads! She should have been flirting with Tony instead._


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Well, K*aley Cuoco got married on Dec 31s*t, if that's what you mean.
> 
> As for Penny, I'm not sure if the Vegas 'wedding' was ever finally resolved.


And my prediction is she'll be divorced by Dec 2014, POSSIBLY as far out as 2015.


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## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Didn't she get married recently anyway?


She got divorced recently, but married a little while ago.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

bryhamm said:


> She got divorced recently, but married a little while ago.


I didn't think that she had been married before.

This video doesn't have anything to do with anything particular, but I found it when I was searching for more info.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdLvUkLW5Jk[/media]


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

murgatroyd said:


> Yeah, I think Cearbhaill is dead on.


And I don't think that some people are giving Leonard enough credit.
If all Leonard wanted was a hot girlfriend, he'd still be with Priya.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

JYoung said:


> And I don't think that some people are giving Leonard enough credit.
> If all Leonard wanted was a hot girlfriend, he'd still be with Priya.


Priya was certainly attractive and more exotic, but she had no pizazz. And she was ashamed of dating a pasty faced white guy.

I am surprised that Penny stays with Leonard. He is just too desperate for sex even after all these years. What woman can respect a guy like that on a long term basis? It is kinda cute to start out with, but after a while a girl has to think 'I can do better'.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

On the attractiveness scale, Priya was more attractive than Penny for me.

--Carlos V.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

replaytv said:


> I didn't think that she had been married before...


She hasn't...


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## efilippi (Jul 24, 2001)

replaytv said:


> I am surprised that Penny stays with Leonard.


Penny going out with Leonard for more than a week just proves that this is a sitcom, not real life. Analyze Leonard's actions as though it is real life, ok, and interesting. But Penny going for Leonard? No chance.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

efilippi said:


> Penny going out with Leonard for more than a week just proves that this is a sitcom, not real life. Analyze Leonard's actions as though it is real life, ok, and interesting. But Penny going for Leonard? No chance.


I disagree. I've personally seen more "unlikely" pairings in real life. The heart wants what the heart wants.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Yeah, and she's always drunk anyway. Booze goggles.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Some people in these BBT threads are like Howard - when they find a joke, they stick with it, long after it ceases to be funny.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I was serious, though.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

The fact that the geeky guy from "Body of Proof" is in real life married to Christina Hendricks, does seem to support Loadstars point, though.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Yeah, but for all we know, he can hold his breath for 10 minutes straight!!!


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

That, and just look at his pants leg closely.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

Hell, I remember when Lyle Lovett married Julia Roberts


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

Cearbhaill said:


> Hell, I remember when Lyle Lovett married Julia Roberts


I remember many people questioning that at the time.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Well, maybe she's got some hidden assets.


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## efilippi (Jul 24, 2001)

I really wasn't focusing on Leonard's looks but the fact that he is infantile with few redeeming characteristics. Not even a great sense of humor. I ask "If I were gay, would I go after Leonard?" Nope.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Unbeliever said:


> On the attractiveness scale, Priya was more attractive than Penny for me.
> 
> --Carlos V.


And Alex over the both of them.

-smak-


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> With all due respect, you just don't know men well enough if you think he would pass on the opportunity to lock a woman like Penny down. He is a decent enough guy not to say yes while she is drunk, he is a guy though so if she had proposed to him without her being in a broken or drunken state he would have said yes in a heartbeat.


A woman like Penny?

Both Bernadette & Amy Farrah Fowler are way more attractive (not necessarily physically in the case of one of them) than Penny. She's just a ditz.


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## cannonz (Oct 23, 2011)

smak said:


> And Alex over the both of them.
> 
> -smak-


Is she still in show?


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

Wow, lots of theories on this.

Here's one more that I think fits better:

Yes, Penny was drunk and I think Leonard would want to wait until she was sober to accept, but the hesitation came after she went through a depressed monologue about being a failure. Asking Leonard to marry her was her "settling" for Leonard, and while earlier he may have been able to just go along with that, he now has realized that he doesn't have to be someone's "good enough."


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

JoeyJoJo said:


> ...Asking Leonard to marry her was her "settling" for Leonard, and while earlier he may have been able to just go along with that, he now has realized that he doesn't have to be someone's "good enough."


I can't disagree with this more....she acknowledged and agreed with Leonard that, while she was stumbling in her career, she was very fortunate & blessed that she DID have him. Then she proposed. That's not settling in my mind...


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

I think _at that moment in time_ for Penny, Joey has it right.


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## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

When she proposed, I thought it was a joke. She used a monotone delivery, a lot like a robot. It seemed off to me.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Agatha Mystery said:


> When she proposed, I thought it was a joke. She used a monotone delivery, a lot like a robot. It seemed off to me.


It was drunk slurred.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ct1 said:


> It was drunk slurred.


...after committing a felony...


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> ...after committing a felony...


Not funny anymore.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> ...after committing a felony...


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## JLucPicard (Jul 8, 2004)

LoadStar said:


> Not funny anymore.





Azlen said:


>


Quoted for truth!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I knew I could get some jokers to respond to that...you made my day!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> I knew I could get some jokers to respond to that...you made my day!


Isn't drunk posting with intent to troll a felony?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Isn't drunk posting with intent to troll a felony?


Guilty as charged...


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

LoadStar said:


> Not funny anymore.


You mean it ever was?


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> You mean it ever was?


I'll admit, the joke was amusing for a very brief moment.

VERY brief.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

I love TBBT threads.

Even if you think they're chugging along nicely and aren't going off the rails- if you stick it out long enough they _always_ do


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

Azlen said:


>


Isn't that a jackass?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Ereth said:


> <snip>
> 
> Penny is part of that "normal" dream. *And look - nobody expected Wolowitz to get married, right? And yet he did,* and Leonard looks around and the girl he had the hots for back in episode one likes him and is his girlfriend, he's doing pretty good. He's somewhat "normal", and he's certainly not out in Sheldon-land.
> 
> <snip>


Now that you mention it, that's by far the most surprising thing about this show. Watch S1 Howard and then realize that he's the first one of the group to marry, and that his wife is actually very smart and attractive, and it will blow your mind.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Especially after the producers told us that Wolowitz was "Pepe le Pew" from the Warner Brothers cartoons, for him to be the first of the gang to marry is startling, and (in spite of the voice) for it to be a woman of the quality of Bernadette even more so.


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## efilippi (Jul 24, 2001)

Perhaps Wolowitz being the one to get married is the writers' way of saying "this is only a tv show, not to be overanalyzed."


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

I think it only means that you never can tell what causes one person to be attracted to another.
I know stranger pairings, that's for sure.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Bernadette seems to drink a lot too. Maybe that affects her judgment.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Just piggybacking this here. 

Watching Hollywood Game Night and Mayim Bialik is on. Her arms are bare halfway between her shoulders and her elbow. I thought she had some religious thing about her arms? I must be confused. Help?


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## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

She wears modest clothing, but she can show her arms.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

I was looking at one of my old figure skating recordings today (Skate Canada from 2005) and discovered this ad:


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Agatha Mystery said:


> She wears modest clothing, but she can show her arms.


What she wore was hardly modest. It didn't have a low neck but it was form fitting and the dress was above the knee.

I recall conversations about covering her arms specifically....


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I don't think anyone is interested in seeing her body anyway...


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## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I don't think anyone is interested in seeing her body anyway...


Well, the way they dress it up in the show, it doesn't look like she has one. When she dresses in real clothing, she actually looks nice.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I don't think anyone is interested in seeing her body anyway...


:down:


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## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

Looking at the pictures that I can find online, the dress shows no cleavage, the sleeves end at her elbows, and the dress comes to her knees. That's actually a very modest dress. It's knit, so it clings a little bit, but it isn't skin tight. What you don't see her do is show cleavage or a lot of leg.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Agatha Mystery said:


> Looking at the pictures that I can find online, the dress shows no cleavage, the sleeves end at her elbows, and the dress comes to her knees. That's actually a very modest dress. It's knit, so it clings a little bit, but it isn't skin tight. What you don't see her do is show cleavage or a lot of leg.


I watched it. Sleeves were halfway between shoulder and elbow. Like, you know, normal sleeves. Dress was way up, especially when she sat. She showed a lot of leg and that's not the first time. It wasn't immodest but I'd never call that a modest dress. It showed figure and was a bit sexy. Not at all what we've talked about and proves to me that the clothing selection on BBT is more driven by character than religion.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

I just did an image search on her, and there's several pics of her in dresses and gowns that are short-sleeved or sleeveless, or ones that show above-knee leg (and even a bit of cleavage). I think she's just a combination of realistic and conservative. She doesn't have a sex-symbol body or looks, and coupled with her conservative leanings (she's somewhat 'modern orthodox'), she dresses accordingly.

I think it's pretty cool she has a PhD in neuroscience, matching her BBT's character's credentials.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Was the show cancelled? I've haven't seen a new episode lately.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Isn't the new one with James Earl Jones tonight?


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

Ereth said:


> Isn't the new one with James Earl Jones tonight?


You are correct, sir.



Spoiler



And, Carrie Fisher.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Kablemodem said:


> Was the show cancelled? I've haven't seen a new episode lately.


LOL... cancel Big Bang Theory? Riiiiight...


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I don't think anyone is interested in seeing her body anyway...


I'd sure like a good look at that brain though. :up:

Actually I find her attractive as her real persona away from BBT, but they make her so unattractive with the way she dresses and wears her hair on BBT. But I love it because it matches her character.

I imagine she is hiding a body that would look great in a bikini too.

I think she is a great actress too. 
To me this picture is not modest, but I guess you could say it is compared to skirts to the crotch, and necklines to the waist that are commonly seen. 
I think it is a very attractive dress and shows her curves very well. And now that she is divorced I have a chance. 
[media]http://images.starpulse.com/pictures/2012/06/13/previews/Mayim%20Bialik-20120613-24.jpg[/media]


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

LoadStar said:


> LOL... cancel Big Bang Theory? Riiiiight...


OK, non-renew.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Kablemodem said:


> OK, non-renew.


Same thing. You're a funny guy, the idea that CBS would cancel (or non-renew) BBT.

(In case you aren't kidding... you do realize that BBT is an absolute *massive* ratings hit. Last week it was the #7 and #9 rated show for the week - and that was for a repeat, and a repeat in a special time slot. For the week ending January 12, the last that they had a new episode, it was the #3 rated show for the week, behind the AFC divisional playoff game and the Golden Globe Awards. It got a 5.7 in the 18-49, which is almost unheard of for a scripted broadast show in these days.)


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

It also has a pretty significant halo effect bringing ratings to the Millers and the Crazy Ones that they would have no chance to get if they weren't on after BBT.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Azlen said:


> It also has a pretty significant halo effect bringing ratings to the Millers and the Crazy Ones that they would have no chance to get if they weren't on after BBT.


Even in the dark and primitive days before DVRs, even before VCRs, I never understood this halo effect. That it still exists now is just one of those facts you have to check off as "true, it's been proven, even though it makes no sense at all", like that there are people who'd prefer to watch other people play sports games than play them themselves.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Now that you mention it, that's by far the most surprising thing about this show. Watch S1 Howard and then realize that he's the first one of the group to marry, and that his wife is actually very smart and attractive, and it will blow your mind.


...or S7 Howard.



Agatha Mystery said:


> Well, the way they dress it up in the show, it doesn't look like she has one. When she dresses in real clothing, she actually looks nice.


It's not just that, they put her in padding & clothes 2 sizes up.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> More like, they gave him Asperger's but refuse to admit it for that reason.


I've always figured that was the case.



AlphaDelta said:


> I understand Penny is disappointed her part was cut, but it wasn't all bad. She was cast on the #1 TV drama, was paid (we assume), and got some exposure inside the industry. What we don't know is why her part was cut.


She explained it thoroughly on the show.

1) She thought this would be her big break, that someone would see her on the show and want her for bigger parts.

b) It was humiliating to have called up everyone she knew to announce and then discover during the show that she'd been cut. Her parents had a viewing party! Checked her brother out of rehab! Got a 6' sub! And now the brother and sub are gone.

I thought they handled the proposal perfectly from both sides. Leonard was too principled to accept her drunk proposal and she was too drunk to see he was being a stand-up guy.

I do think he loves her and would like to marry her, he just knew he'd be taking advantage to say 'yes' right then.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

replaytv said:


> I'd sure like a good look at that brain though. :up:
> 
> Actually I find her attractive as her real persona away from BBT, but they make her so unattractive with the way she dresses and wears her hair on BBT. *But I love it because it matches her character. *
> 
> ...


Two very good points - one she dresses on the show like her character and two, she does wear beautiful attractive outfits in RL, but not the racy stuff that some others may wear.


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

Agatha Mystery said:


> Well, the way they dress it up in the show, it doesn't look like she has one. When she dresses in real clothing, she actually looks nice.


I saw the episode of Hollywood Game Night she was on. She looked a LOT better on that show then the way they dress her on BBT.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> Even in the dark and primitive days before DVRs, even before VCRs, I never understood this halo effect. That it still exists now is just one of those facts you have to check off as "true, it's been proven, even though it makes no sense at all", like that there are people who'd prefer to watch other people play sports games than play them themselves.


Wow, I'm obviously a huge Tivo fan, and have said many times that I used VCRs long before that to avoid most commercials and record what I want...

but I still can semi-understand the "leave it on the same channel" motivation -- ESPECIALLY for one half hour sitcom into another half hour sitcom.. since the other channels are likely airing hour long shows partway done.

I don't mean necessarily every single week, but at least a tryout when new shows premiere..

Not now, with much more control, but for the people who don't actually use their DVRs as intended or don't have them, I can see why it happens.

Plus, I think Williams' show would have a shot just because of Williams.. he's funny.


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