# If there ARE any UK forum members left, a question about UK digital TV



## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Here in the States the previous television broadcast format was called NTSC, as the UK format is called PAL and (I gather) some other countries have a system called "SECAM".

Now, with digital TV being pretty much all that's left in the States (the analog broadcasts have been ended...by law), the current system is called ATSC.

I'm sure the UK has also begun switching (or finished switching) to digital for OverTheAir television, but what is the digital system called?

I'm only asking because I'd been considering a new TV and noted that it was able to work with both American systems, but it also specified it could work with PAL. Nice, except I wasn't sure that was a plus if PAL isn't used any more. (No, I'm not a world traveler, but I am curious.)

Anyone know what's what with UK digital television?


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

PAL is still used by anything that puts an analogue signal into the TV. e.g. DVD players, VCRs etc. and broadcast analogue TV which is being phased out in time for the 2012 Olympics (IIRC).

The digital terrestrial broadcast system in the UK is called Freeview using DVB-T though there are plans to upgrade this to broadcast HiDef which will require new tuners (DVB-T2?). This arrives through the TV aerial into a co-axial socket on the TV. As you won't get over the air transmissions in the US it's of no interest to you.

There are also digital cable and digital satellite standards, but again they won't make it to you so don't worry.

So your PAL compatible TV show a PAL DVD or PAL VHS tape assuming your DVD player/VHS player could also output a PAL signal if it was connected using composite (yellow video, red and white audio RCA jacks) or a SCART (essential in the UK, unusual in the US). 
If connected using component, DVI or HDMI then it will be using a different standards and the PAL compatibility is more or less irrelevant providing the TV accepts 576 lines (576i).

I have a number of DVDs from the US and Canada that are NTSC encoded so I would need any future TV/DVD player/Bluray player to be able display/convert that, but it doesn't sound like you've been importing UK DVDs or tapes. I wouldn't worry unduly about PAL compatibility one way or the other.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

AMc said:


> PAL is still used by anything that puts an analogue signal into the TV. e.g. DVD players, VCRs etc. and broadcast analogue TV which is being phased out in time for the 2012 Olympics (IIRC).


The cut-off date was announce well before we won the 2012 Olympics though. It's just a co-incidence


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

The reason why PAL is mentioned in US TV is that a lot if US TV's and DVD players will only do NTSC (never twice same color) only. My broher, who lives in New Mexico, found this out, in that he couldn't play his PAL DVD's (family video and commercial) using his US sourced Sony equipment. It wasn't a DVD region coding issue its just that DVD player wouldn't do PAL 50Hz and TV wouldn't do PAL.

However by shopping around he got a multi-region DVD player (hacked Philips unit) and a new model Sony LCD TV and region 2 DVD's and 50Hz PAL DVD's play fine.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

cwaring said:


> The cut-off date was announce well before we won the 2012 Olympics though. It's just a co-incidence


Carl, have you been time traveling again???

You've gone and spoiled it for the rest of us now we know we are going to win in 2012, what were you told about messing with the time line!


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

You know me... ever the optimist  

Gotta love the complexities of the English language. British English that is, not US English


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## tonywalk (Sep 10, 2002)

AMc said:


> The digital terrestrial broadcast system in the UK is called Freeview using DVB-T...
> 
> I have a number of DVDs from the US and Canada that are NTSC encoded...


Can I clear up a couple of points. The Current UK digital broadcast system is called DVB-T. Freeview is a consortium of broadcasters committed to a free-to-air digital TV service. Surprisingly, BSkyB are one of them (BBC, ITV, C4 and Arqiva (transmitters) are the others).

DVDs intended for U.S. consumers are encoded in MPEG-2 using a frame rate and resolution commensurate with NTSC. As you correctly state, the analogue signal out of the DVD player will be NTSC (or PAL for UK discs/equipment) - many players can fiddle a different encoding rate into the required output.

Apologies, but that last one always gets me going


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Yes indeed the 50/60Hz playback is most important.

My UK Pansonic HDMI HD camcorder would not work on my brothers American Sharp 50" HDTV as it would only accept a 60Hz 30 frame rate.

An English model however will take a 50 or 50Hz signal and frame rate with ease...

Automan.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

gastrof said:


> Here in the States the previous television broadcast format was called NTSC, as the UK format is called PAL and (I gather) some other countries have a system called "SECAM".


Sort of. You have to separate the analogue terrestrial (and in some cases cable) system received via radio frequencies via an aerial/antenna or a cable feed - with the baseband system which is output from local devices (SD VCRs, DVD Players, Games Consoles) at home via Composite RCA phonos, S-video mini-DINs or SCART (a European connector) - and also in some cases Component RCA Phonos.

In the UK we use PAL I as our analogue broadcast format (much of the rest of Europe uses PAL B/G or D/K), and PAL (in the 4.43MHz 50Hz variant) as our baseband format. We also use RGB 625/50 aka 576/50 via SCART and YPbPr 625/50 aka 576/50 via HD Component.

In the US you used to use NTSC-M as your analogue OTA broadcast format - but this ceased on June 12th. However analogue cable operators can continue for a few more months (or is it years) using the same format.

However your VCRs and DVD players continue to work - and output a baseband (and in some cases OTA RF) NTSC standard signal.

SECAM L is still broadcast in France, and Russia also uses a SECAM system, as do some Middle East and African countries. Eastern European countries used SECAM as well in the Soviet era, but many switched to PAL once the Iron Curtain fell.



> Now, with digital TV being pretty much all that's left in the States (the analog broadcasts have been ended...by law), the current system is called ATSC.
> 
> I'm sure the UK has also begun switching (or finished switching) to digital for OverTheAir television, but what is the digital system called?


We started digital TV broadcasting OTA around the same time (1998) as the US.

We went for DVB-T (which uses COFDM modulation rather than the 8VSB used by ATSC) in Europe - however most of Europe has gone for SD via DVB-T - though often in 16:9. There are a number of variants that can be deployed - and the UK currently runs a mix of 18Mbs 16QAM 2k and 24Mbs 64QAM 2k. We're switching to 24Mbs 64QAM 8k as we switch off analogue - but as we switch off analogue we're converting one of our DVB-T multiplexes (equivalent to a US RF channel) to DVB-T2 36Mbs 256QAM 32k for HD broadcasts using H264 not MPEG2 modulation. However this is only relevant if you are using an aerial/antenna to receive your signal.

All our digital broadcasts - SD and HD are 50Hz, as are our DVDs. They aren't "PAL" - as that is an analogue composite format.

However just as NTSC and the US ATSC system are 60Hz (or 59.94Hz to be precise) our PAL system and our DVB-T/T2 (and S/S2 satellite and C cable) systems are all 50Hz. This means UK Digital TV sources - like satellite receivers, set top boxes etc. are all outputting 50Hz video - either Composite PAL, S-video pal, SD RGB, SD or HD Component and SD or HD HDMI. 


> I'm only asking because I'd been considering a new TV and noted that it was able to work with both American systems, but it also specified it could work with PAL. Nice, except I wasn't sure that was a plus if PAL isn't used any more. (No, I'm not a world traveler, but I am curious.)
> 
> Anyone know what's what with UK digital television?


We're DVB-T - but only via an antenna.

For HDTV interconnects we're 1080/50i and 720/50p via HDMI and Component HD.

HOWEVER - all European "HD Ready" licensed TVs have to support both 60Hz and 50Hz HD inputs - and our 1080p Blu-rays, like the US, are mastered at 24p and if our displays don't accept 24Hz, we get 60Hz output with 3:2 pulldown - just as you guys do.

However some of our extras are 576/50 on Blu-ray, though many are 480/60.

What it does mean is that your display is likely to take a PAL baseband input (and possibly a 50Hz HD Component or HDMI input) from a DVD player that will output 50Hz video when playing 50Hz discs?


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## bigwold (Jun 4, 2003)




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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Thanks for all the replies.

I was pretty much wondering "Would this TV be of ANY use in the UK with the digital changeover? It doesn't appear to mention any system for digital TV, whereas it does mention the American digital format. It can do PAL. How exciting. An old format likely being phased out."


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## pauljs (Feb 11, 2001)

gastrof said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> I was pretty much wondering "Would this TV be of ANY use in the UK with the digital changeover? It doesn't appear to mention any system for digital TV, whereas it does mention the American digital format. It can do PAL. How exciting. An old format likely being phased out."


All uk digital decoders will output PAL for many years to come, there are no plans to make TV's obsolete as long as they are used with a set top box.

So if your TV lists PAL as an option then it will always work with a UK set top box. You will need to use Scart or RCA/phonos etc to connect it for Standard def tv.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

AMc said:


> *The digital terrestrial broadcast system in the UK is called Freeview* using DVB-T though there are plans to upgrade this to broadcast HiDef which will require new tuners (DVB-T2?). *This arrives through the TV aerial into a co-axial socket on the TV*.


Wrong the UK digital terrestrial tv broadcast system is not called Freeview but is called DTT (Digital Terrestrial Telvision) the transmission system for which is currently exclusively DVB-T normally decoded by a set top box and then transferred to most people's televisions using a SCART cable to the television's SCART socket. Most set top boxes allow you to transfer the picture to the television via the SCART cable as either a PAL or an RGB signal.

A few people using set top boxes with ancient tvs with no SCART socket and a few techno illiterates too mean to buy a SCART cable but who have a tv with a SCART socket may of course stil deliver the tv picture to their tv via coaxial if they have one of the small minority of set top boxes with a built in RF modulator output (the majority don't have an RF modulator and only use SCART to output the picture to the television.).

Of course perhaps AMc meant to say that the majority of these set top boxes get their incoming signal via co-axial cable from a roof top aerial?


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## pauljs (Feb 11, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> Of course perhaps AMc meant to say that the majority of these set top boxes get their incoming signal via co-axial cable from a roof top aerial?


Amc was correct as the digital signal does come through the aerial and anyway all new UK spec TV's sold today have a DVB-T tuner built in.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

pauljs said:


> Wrong, Amc was correct as the digital signal does come through the aerial


But he said "This arrives through the TV aerial into a co-axial socket on the TV" and in the history of DTT use in the UK this is an incomplete and/or significantly misleading statement.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

You'll have to forgive Pete77. He does like to get a little over-pedantic at times


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

Don't worry about it, we have more than our fair share of pedants on the US side of the board.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> You'll have to forgive Pete77. He does like to get a little over-pedantic at times


Is there an acceptable level of pedantry? Or is that over-pedantic to ask?

My eyes, the tautologies.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Is there an acceptable level of pedantry? Or is that over-pedantic to ask?


What is perceived as pedantic or not in any internet forum will not be a constant and will tend to have as much to do with the forum's politics and whether or not you ar part of the forum's in-crowd or not as the actual content of the post.

Of course I am rather inclined to regard being described as a pedant as something of a complement, even though those who made such comments no doubt intended a completely opposite effect.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Sherminator said:


> Don't worry about it, we have more than our fair share of pedants on the US side of the board.


Not to mention those with sufficient time on their hands to find a way to change their forum profile to show Registered User upside down.


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## rwtomkins (Jul 14, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> Of course I am rather inclined to regard being described as a pedant as something of a complement, even though those who made such comments no doubt intended a completely opposite effect.


Sorry to be pedantic, but I think you'll find the correct spelling is _compliment_.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

gastrof said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> I was pretty much wondering "Would this TV be of ANY use in the UK with the digital changeover? It doesn't appear to mention any system for digital TV, whereas it does mention the American digital format. It can do PAL. How exciting. An old format likely being phased out."


If it doesn't have a DVB-T tuner for our Digital Terrestrial System (marketed as Freeview) then it will not have any use as a standalone TV receiver in the UK. However if it doesn't specifically have a PAL-I compatible tuner (i.e. a System I tuner and PAL decoding) then it wouldn't work now.

HOWEVER set-top boxes, VCRs, DVD players, games consoles etc. will all output a PAL baseband signal - and the TV will continue to work with that after we've stopped broadcasting analogue PAL over-the-air using our analogue terrestrial transmitters.

For info - it is quite common for some models of TV to have a single-standard tuner - say NTSC M, PAL I or PAL B/G, or SECAM L - but for them to be compatible with other standards when fed directly baseband (i.e. not received via RF demodulation from an aerial/antenna feed)

In Europe many TV sets now sold DO have tuners capable of PAL I, PAL B/G, SECAM D/K, PAL D/K and SECAM L (or some of these) along with the allied various stereo sound systems like NICAM 728 digital and Zweiton dual-FM - so that the same model of TV (give or take the mains power connector) can be sold across Europe. HOWEVER whilst these sets don't have tuners compatible with NTSC M (as there are no NTSC M broadcasts in Europe - though American Forces might use NTSC M and/or NTSC B/G in some places) -they DO have NTSC decoders capable of taking an NTSC baseband feed from a DVD player, US VCR, games console etc. (Though many of us with SD DVD players won't use NTSC or PAL, we'll use 60Hz or 50Hz RGB via SCART to bypass composite colour encoding entirely for better quality)


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## BrianHughes (Jan 21, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> Not to mention those with sufficient time on their hands to find a way to change their forum profile to show Registered User upside down.


(-: ˙sıɥʇ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹos s,ʞɔǝu ɹnoʎ ʇǝq ı ˙ʎןןɐnʇɔɐ ʎsɐǝ ʎʇʇǝɹd s,ʇı ˙ǝʇǝd ıH


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

(-: s&#305; &#647;&#305; os


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