# Game of Thrones S8E6 5/19/2019 "The Iron Throne" Series Finale



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

And that's how you end a series! Bittersweet indeed.

Thanks to all involved--actors, writers, crew, etc. Especially George R.R. Martin for giving us this world. It's been a long time since a TV show captured the public imagination like Game of Thrones, maybe since Lost (this week, nine years ago). Love it or not, it was a hell of a ride!

Ghost!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

For a show that has stumbled so much during this season, it’s impressive how satisfying the finalé was. It’s like they got all of the missteps out of the way the past few episodes. King Bran works for me, as does Queen Sansa. And Lord Commander Jon Snow as well, although now the Night’s Watch will actually be what everybody always erroneously assumed it was...busy-work to keep the bastards and broken people occupied. Even Tyrion found a place in the New World Order. It’s all much...happier than I would have thought for Game of Thrones, but grimmer than I would expect for just about any other show.

I figured it had to be Jon who killed Dany...the Rule of the Most Tragic Outcome is too deeply ingrained in this show for it to be anybody else. Wasn’t sure at all what would happen next, though. 

Interesting that Drogon decided nobody would succeed Dany on the Iron Throne!

For a building that collapsed into the basement, it’s amazing how intact the Red Keep is.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> For a building that collapsed into the basement, it's amazing how intact the Red Keep is.


And how little rubble Jaime and Cersei were buried under.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Interesting that Drogon decided nobody would succeed Dany on the Iron Throne!


You knew Drogon wouldn't kill him, but for a moment I thought he was going to accept Jon as his rider.

Oh well, Bran the Broken will find him.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I feel pretty satisfied with that. My only gripe is why would Sansa still be insisting the North be free when her own brother is now the King. I also got some Cercei vibes from her in that final scene where she sits and they all start chanting "queen in the north".

GHOST THE GOODEST BOY REUNITED. That was what we deserved! That alone makes me love the finale.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I'm not sure how I feel. I'm gonna need some time for it to sink in a bit. I don't know what I was hoping for, and I certainly was not expecting a happy ending, but my initial reaction is that this just didn't do it for me. So much felt strange. The nights watch is pointless now. The whole think about the North remaining independent...I know that's always been what they've been leading us to all along, but now the other 6 kingdoms are just going to accept an independent North under stark rule, while the 6 kingdoms remain separate...under Stark rule? Arya's whole extended death and destruction scene last episode clearly showed us they were setting her up for something...but I didn't think that something was a 30 second conversation with Jon Snow. I was certainly not hoping it would be her killing Dany, but I was hoping there'd be something more. And "whats west of Westeros" certainly isn't it either.

Clearly the writers were trolling us with the Ghost scene 2 episiodes ago. They knew exactly how everyone would react and just held it out till now. Props to them on a good trolling.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Bran could have “pardoned “ Jon and reinstates him as king of the North. He seemed ok with being back at castle Black though.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

astrohip said:


> You knew Drogon wouldn't kill him, but for a moment I thought he was going to accept Jon as his rider.
> 
> Oh well, Bran the Broken will find him.


Nah. They had to get rid of Drogon. But they did it in a way that the story could be picked up. Same with Arya. Same with Jon Snow.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Gunnyman said:


> Bran could have "pardoned " Jon and reinstates him as king of the North. He seemed ok with being back at castle Black though.


The unsullied would've never gone for that.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

realityboy said:


> The unsullied would've never gone for that.


So what? They had half their numbers and Greyworm told them to choose a king. Seems to me Bran could do whatever he wanted.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> GHOST THE GOODEST BOY REUNITED. That was what we deserved! That alone makes me love the finale.


You know D&D had to be biting their tongues when they got all that criticism for that "goodbye" between Jon & Ghost. "Just you wait", said neither of them.

I think the fact that Bran is both the First and the Last of his name is part of what lets the Six Kingdoms accept him. He's clearly "special", and they're okay with that, and him. And he won't live forever. Well, maybe six thousand years or so, but not forever.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I feel pretty satisfied with that. My only gripe is why would Sansa still be insisting the North be free when her own brother is now the King. I also got some Cercei vibes from her in that final scene where she sits and they all start chanting "queen in the north".


Bran won't be King forever, and the next ruler probably won't be a Stark. It'd be a lot harder to then make the North free, than right now.

-smak-


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I feel pretty satisfied with that. My only gripe is why would Sansa still be insisting the North be free when her own brother is now the King. I also got some Cercei vibes from her in that final scene where she sits and they all start chanting "queen in the north".


I think she's just philosophically opposed to the North being part of the Kingdoms...especially since when Bran dies, who knows who will become King/Queen and how they will treat the North?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

realityboy said:


> The unsullied would've never gone for that.


Why did they even go for holding Jon as prisoner in the first place. I mean, here they are executing surrendered soldier without even giving Jon a chance to talk to Dany about it, but then Jon kills their queen and they're just like "oh yeah, well we will see what the lords of the 7 kingdoms have to say about this".


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Sam: “Let’s try democracy!”

Overall I felt distinctly meh...


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Why did they even go for holding Jon as prisoner in the first place. I mean, here they are executing surrendered soldier without even giving Jon a chance to talk to Dany about it, but then Jon kills their queen and they're just like "oh yeah, well we will see what the lords of the 7 kingdoms have to say about this".


They have no protection for anything they might do to Jon. Their Queen is dead.

-smak-


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Now, people can stop complaining about Jon not giving a proper goodbye to Ghost a couple episodes ago. It was the reunion we all wanted, anyway.


I liked that Sansa waited to go last in the vote for king and then just said, no, we're going to stay independent. You have to think the others were thinking that they didn't know that was an option.

Also, nice for her to put her stupid uncle in his place. I'd say he's the most-useless person related to the Starks, but there's still their cousin, Robin.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The new ruling council seems like they were pulling a reverse Star Trek...instead of the entire command staff going on every Away Mission, they took all the Away Mission crew and made them command staff. 

But having a Master of Grammar made it all worthwhile.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Gunnyman said:


> So what? They had half their numbers and Greyworm told them to choose a king. Seems to me Bran could do whatever he wanted.


He could, but I assume he wouldn't want to start a war with the unsullied as his first act.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Isn't Drogon now King...Or a non gendered ruler? 

-smak-


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

Did Jon Confess?

How did anyone know it was him who killed Dany? There was blood but no body yet somehow the Unsullied knew exactly what had happened.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Maui said:


> Did Jon Confess?
> 
> How did anyone know it was him who killed Dany? There was blood but no body yet somehow the Unsullied knew exactly what had happened.


I thought the same thing. My theory is, everybody saw Drogon fly away, and then maybe tried to figure out what happened?

-smak-


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

I was expecting Arya to be more important in the John/Dany drama after last episode*, but otherwise I have no complaints with this episode. 

* It’s actually more of a complaint about last episode wasting so much time on something that went nowhere.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I would have loved more detail in this final season, and wasn't thrilled as it was playing out, but I feel like the final episode wrapped things up very well and overall I am happy with how the show ended.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I'm still soaking it in but not unsatisfied.

Glad Jon did what he did but sucks that he ended up where he started

Also was thinking Drogon would burn Jon and he come out of it fine...LOL!

Arya the Explorer!


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Arya the Explorer


That's a spin-off that I could get behind.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Maui said:


> Did Jon Confess?
> 
> How did anyone know it was him who killed Dany? There was blood but no body yet somehow the Unsullied knew exactly what had happened.


Jon doesn't seem to be the type to lie about what he's done...no matter the cost.

Plus at that point, he was probably looking forward to a little execution.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

realityboy said:


> He could, but I assume he wouldn't want to start a war with the unsullied as his first act.


As was laid out clearly by the hand of the king.


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

Ser Podrick!


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Bronn Master of Coin


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I don’t always write in my journal, but when I do it’s while wearing full plate mail. 

Oh, and Jaime... move 12 feet to your left. 

The comedy routine at the end was silly. Fund the ships, fund the whores. 

All I was left with was... at least it wasn’t Sansa.

Yikes. Didn’t really like it.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

astrohip said:


> You knew Drogon wouldn't kill him, but for a moment I thought he was going to accept Jon as his rider.


Between the Ice Dragon and Drogon, I was hoping that one would light Jon up ... leaving him standing naked once the smoke settled.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Overall, I'm satisfied. It wasn't perfect but it was better than I was expecting based on the rest of the season. 

Where were Jon and the Free People going? I didn't get that.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Hey, David Chase! This is how you end a series. 

While not a fan of Dany's descent into power hungry madness, this episode rang true. Rather than big plots of how to get rid of her (my personal theory was Arya killing Greyworm, taking his form, and killing Dany), this was so much better. In the final embrace, I was thinking "stab the *****!" with the expectation it wouldn't happen. I was pleasantly surprised at the whole episode. Now I just want a series entitled "West of Westeros." 

Finally, I have a question. What happened to the Unsullied? Back to Esos? And what about Dany's lover, who was left in charge there?


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> Overall, I'm satisfied. It wasn't perfect but it was better than I was expecting based on the rest of the season.
> 
> Where were Jon and the Free People going? I didn't get that.


That seemed ambivalent to me - did he just make a quick pitstop at Castle Black, and then decided to go live north of the wall with the free people? Or was he just escorting them for a bit, and then returned to Castle Black?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Maui said:


> Did Jon Confess?
> 
> How did anyone know it was him who killed Dany? There was blood but no body yet somehow the Unsullied knew exactly what had happened.


Yeah, knowing Jon he told them.

So the first time Drogon went flame-on, what was he torching? Just a random wall?

Didn't seem to singe Jon at all. Was anyone else wondering if he'd survive the fire?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> Hey, David Chase! This is how you end a series.
> 
> While not a fan of Dany's descent into power hungry madness, this episode ran true. Rather than big plots of how to get rid of her (my personal theory was Arya killing Greyworm, taking his form, and killing Dany), this was so much better. In the final embrace, I was thinking "stab the *****!" with the expectation it wouldn't happen. I was pleasantly surprised at the whole episode. Now I just want a series entitled "West of Westeros."
> 
> Finally, I have a question. What happened to the Unsullied? Back to Esos? And what about Dany's lover, who was left in charge there?


Naath. Greyworm told them to set sail.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Arya pulling a Frodo Baggins. Lame.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

All the people angry about Ghost...
All the people arguing about snow vs ash in the vision...
I guess you have to wait until the show is over.

Nice having Bronn back.

I've seen an interpretation in another forum: Sansa, Tyrion, et al were basically sending Jon to be King Beyond the Wall. 3 Stark rulers! But they had to say "life sentence at the Wall" to get the Unsullied out. Perhaps there isn't really a Night's Watch anymore. (Were there any definite Crows when he passed through, or were they all Wildlings?)

Would've been nice if Jon and Tormound said something.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I think what people down south think is a punishment for Jon, he thinks is heaven. 

I think he’s going to live north of the wall. 

I think that was pretty clever by Sansa probably. 

-smak-


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Maui said:


> Did Jon Confess?
> 
> How did anyone know it was him who killed Dany? There was blood but no body yet somehow the Unsullied knew exactly what had happened.


Of course he did. Jon Snow SOP.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

While I think it was satisfying that Jon did it, I don't think it would have happened without a year, minimum, of pushing him in that direction and Dany continuing to kill people. He was too much like Ned to do it that quickly, IMO. 

I think he could have denied doing it and been believed. But he wouldn't. Again, too much Ned in him. 

I also don't think GRR will wrap it up as happily as this was wrapped. I hope one day we find out though!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> Finally, I have a question. What happened to the Unsullied? Back to Esos? And what about Dany's lover, who was left in charge there?


They went to the Isle of Naath (where Missandei was from, and where her and Greyworm were supposed to "retire" to). Daario Naharis is holding Slaver's Bay...err, Dragon's Bay


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Will Arya land at Plymouth Rock, or somewhere in the Caribbean, I wonder?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I've seen mixed reaction on Twitter to the finale. Some calling it good and others calling it "garbage". The only constant I've seen is that people are happy Jon got to pet Ghost. 

Personally I thought it was okay, though I wasn't completely satisfied. I'm not sure exactly what was missing, but something just seemed off. Was Bran manipulating people the past two seasons just to become king or something?



uncdrew said:


> Yeah, knowing Jon he told them.
> 
> So the first time Drogon went flame-on, what was he torching? Just a random wall?
> 
> Didn't seem to singe Jon at all. Was anyone else wondering if he'd survive the fire?


I think Drogon was just lashing out in grief. I'm not sure he realized that Jon was the one that killed Danny since he didn't actually see it happen. He knew Jon as Danny's "mate" so it probably didn't cross his not so little dragon mind to think Jon killed her.

It was kind of sad after the entire time that Dany never actually got to sit on the iron throne, even for a second.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Naath. Greyworm told them to set sail.


Right, where Grey Worm and Missandei had decided they would go after Dany took the throne.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

I used a 7-day trial to binge season 8. The ending was meh so I’m glad it was "free". 

The ruler of the 6 six kingdoms choice was surprising but satisfying.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

The Ghost reunion didn’t make the prior Ghost scene better, it made it worse. I don’t understand how anyone can see it otherwise? Like, oh ok I’m glad to see you now but I didn’t bother saying goodbye before... and clearly the CG wasn’t the issue...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> While I think it was satisfying that Jon did it, I don't think it would have happened without a year, minimum, of pushing him in that direction and Dany continuing to kill people. He was too much like Ned to do it that quickly, IMO.


Nah...she butchered a city full of innocent people, and was going to keep doing it. He couldn't live with the people who had already died due to his support for her. He wasn't going to let any more people die at her hands.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

A very George RR Martin ending to have the storyteller/keeper end up ruling it all.


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## jdfs (Oct 21, 2002)

What is west of Westeros? Westworld. Crossover show next season when Arya reaches the shores and it all starts to make sense. The White Walkers, Dragons, Unsullied, were all robots!


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I still don't understand how Dany had so many Dothraki and unsullied left after the battle at Winterfell.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)




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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

astrohip said:


> View attachment 41097


Yah. That was well done.

-smak-


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Good interview with Emilia Clarke and others...

Emilia Clarke on the 'Game of Thrones' finale's shock twist: 'I stand by Daenerys'

Telling quote by Brian Cogman, one of the Exec Producers:

_"I still don't know how I feel about a lot of what happens this season and I helped write it," Cogman says. "It's emotionally very challenging. It's designed to not feel good. That said, I don't think that's a bad thing. The best drama is the type you have to think about. There's a dangerous tendency right now to make art and popular culture to feel safe for everybody and make everybody feel okay when watching and I don't believe in that. The show is messy and grey and that's where it's always lived - from Jaime pushing a little boy out the window to Ned Stark's death to the Red Wedding. This is the kind of story that's meant to unsettle you and challenge you and make you think and question. I think that was George's intent and what David and Dan wanted to do. However you feel about the final episodes of this show I don't think anybody will ever accuse us of taking the easy way out."_


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Like when Darth Vader would enter a scene...



astrohip said:


> View attachment 41097


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

I wonder how many takes that took, to get Drogon to be lined up so perfectly??


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

gweempose said:


> I still don't understand how Dany had so many Dothraki and unsullied left after the battle at Winterfell.


I was talking to the screen "oh hi how nice of you all to be not dead suddenly". I don't get it either. There was no need to show so many, as they served no real purpose in the episode.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Didn’t they say that half were killed. That was a lot less than half. 


-smak-


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

I have to say that was an excellent ending, especially after the misstep of ep. 5. It seemed to tie up all the loose ends without anyone (except maybe Sansa) really "winning"....bittersweet for all (well, most).

Jon ends where he started, Tyrion is still a Hand of the King, and the mad queen is dead, as she should be, killed by the man she loved. 

A great series, epic in every way, with only one stumble, is just an incredible, incredibly accomplishment. What a series!


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> There was no need to show so many, as they served no real purpose in the episode.


Up until she died, they were poised to be deployed across the known world to "free" everyone (no matter how many were killed). Between her army and her dragon, she was going to be hard to stop. So I think showing that she had them to be deployed was important - it could have played a part in Jon's decision to stop her.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

mm2margaret said:


> I have to say that was an excellent ending, especially after the misstep of ep. 5. It seemed to tie up all the loose ends without anyone (except maybe Sansa) really "winning"....bittersweet for all (well, most).
> 
> Jon ends where he started, Tyrion is still a Hand of the King, and the mad queen is dead, as she should be, killed by the man she loved.
> 
> A great series, epic in every way, with only one stumble, is just an incredible, incredibly accomplishment. What a series!


Agreed!

(I didn't say so in the last thread, but I was thinking to myself that it was going to be difficult you to not watch the last episode tonight! I'm glad you watched it to avoid spoilers.)


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I was talking to the screen "oh hi how nice of you all to be not dead suddenly". I don't get it either. There was no need to show so many, as they served no real purpose in the episode.


But there wasn't that many. She came to westeros with 8000 unsullied. She lost a few here and there (does anyone recall in the conversation with Arya [edit...I mean Sansa] how many unsullied they needed to feed?), and then half of what was left at Winterfell. They lost hardly anything in the battle of Kings Landing. Worst case that would probably be 2000 unsullied, but I think more.

If you look in the scene where Dany is at the top of the stairs, the unsullied are lined up. It looks like a little more than 30 in each line, but definitely no more than 50. There are 16-20 rows on each side of here. If we go with the upper bound, 50 * 20 * 2 is only 2000. Then less than 50 lining each side of the stairs. So absolute most you see there is 2100.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Ugh


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> I wonder how many takes that took, to get Drogon to be lined up so perfectly??


I read where he was mostly well behaved on set, and hit his cues all the time. As long as you kept him plied with sheep and the occasional shepherd pie.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Ugh


LOL... +1...

I was came here thinking that there would be a lot of "meh" reactions, but was surprised to see everyone so happy and satisfied with the ending...

I was really disappointed... I thought Jon Snow would get the nod to the Iron Throne after the heart wrenching decision to kill his love interest and queen... Especially since most knew of his lineage... A Targareon was on the Iron Throne, and he has always been such a compelling leader...

All the democratic discussion seemed forced and over the top. "A leader will no longer be born, but chosen"... While I agree with this in reality, it just seemed forced and out of place in this finale.

Also, how did Tyrion the prisoner become the voice for the leadership. I found it unrealistic that the nomination of Bran came from him.

LOL... I have to admit, the one bit that I really enjoyed was Lady Sansa telling the guy who was making a play for the throne to "sit down"... That was one of the few shining moments for me.

And ending in the slapstick jokes about funding whore houses versus ships, also seemed like a slap in the face to such an otherwise epic series.

I would almost have been happier if Jon decided to let Dany live to rule the 7 Kingdoms, and end with an underground rebellion that keeps the viewers considering the "what ifs" of what could happen in the unstated future...

As they say, you can't make everyone happy with a series finale, and unfortunately I fell on the other side...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> While I think it was satisfying that Jon did it, I don't think it would have happened without a year, minimum, of pushing him in that direction and Dany continuing to kill people. He was too much like Ned to do it that quickly, IMO.
> 
> I think he could have denied doing it and been believed. But he wouldn't. Again, too much Ned in him.


No. Tyrion told him he was the one that could make a choice. And that was eating at him and then Dany said they exact same thing and that pushed him over the top. At that moment he knew what he had to do.


MikeekiM said:


> Also, how did Tyrion the prisoner become the voice for the leadership. I found it unrealistic that the nomination of Bran came from him.


He was only the prisoner in the eyes of the Unsullied. The rest of them sitting there still obviously respected him and his counsel. And clearly he learned some humility over those eight seasons.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

...I am still "coming down" from my disappointment with this finale episode...

I mean really...NONE of the power players are sitting on the iron throne at the end of this epic series? Not Dany, not Jon, not Cercie? What happened to the riveting "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die"?

I feel like I just finished the 82 game NBA season and woke up to find out that one of the mediocre under-performing teams won the NBA Finals and took home the trophy!

Sorry...still feeling completely underwhelmed right now... (can you tell?)


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

The only two people that were playing the game of thrones are dead. 

In fact, isn’t everybody in the series who wanted the throne dead?

-smak-


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

anyone who suffered through the 'Lost' finale and was unsatisfied with this is insatiable.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> anyone who suffered through the 'Lost' finale and was unsatisfied with this is insatiable.


I guess I am insatiable...


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Just did a rewatch, and as it came to the end, I realized the series opened and closed with the same exact scene. A group going thru the wall, heading into the North.

Similar to Lost, in that it opened and closed with the same scene (Jack's eye).

Also, did you catch the sprig of grass breaking thru the snow as they trudged north. Book Seven, _A Dream of Spring_.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

MikeekiM said:


> ...I am still "coming down" from my disappointment with this finale episode...
> 
> I mean really...NONE of the power players are sitting on the iron throne at the end of this epic series? Not Dany, not Jon, not Cercie? What happened to the riveting "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die"?
> 
> ...


You kinda missed the point. The ending of GoT is that there is no more game of thrones. They showed us that metaphorically and physically (Drogon destroying the throne)

I'm surprised so many think Dany or anyone else or even Jon ending up on the thrown would have been a satisfying ending.

Especially with after Jon killing Dany (which basically HAD to happen) there was absolutely no path for Jon and noone else made sense.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Personally I think this wrapped up about as well as it could have. I'm pretty satisfied.

For me one of the better series endings and about as good as you can hope for with an epic like this


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

smak said:


> The only two people that were playing the game of thrones are dead.
> 
> In fact, isn't everybody in the series who wanted the throne dead?
> 
> -smak-


Yep. 
The key players for power are all dead, the throne is gone. There is no more Game of Thrones.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

krkaufman said:


> Between the Ice Dragon and Drogon, I was hoping that one would light Jon up ... leaving him standing naked once the smoke settled.


But we've been over this. Jon wasn't impervious to fire unless dragon fire is different and Dany was impervious to all fire.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

So some reviews are already saying that the finale was too "happily ever after" for a GOT finale. That it would be a good finale for another show, but not for a show where the good guys frequently lose badly. Basically almost all the good guys got what they wanted, even arguably Jon Snow.

For example:

'Game of Thrones' series finale recap: A disaster ending that fans didn't deserve

I guess the alternative is a Red Wedding type ending though which I'm pretty sure would be horribly despised. Something in between could work though.


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

It ended up being a hollywood happy ending.

Bran king and mysterious and crap
Jon Snow king beyond the walll (that look they made him give)
Sansa Queen of the north
Arya the explorer

And yes the bickering of politics was just basically lame
Finding the golden hand in less than a foot of rubble was such a "twist"
Petting Ghost was nice, but also rude overall, pandering playing typical head games. Tormund and Ghost 100% predictable before gate opened

but overall still didn't hate it. It was better than the horrible ep5, but that bar was set low.

Well edited to ADD SMEAK! I saw morac's post after I hit enter on mine. ha hadn't seen that article yet

Read that article, it fit my thinking as well


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

I probably would be disappointed with any ending, but I feel like after Jon killed Danerys, the episode just got... weird! Maybe it wrapped things up a little too neatly. I dunno. It just felt strange!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I thought it was pretty excellent. Certainly riveting to watch. Unlike some of the action episodes, I never looked at my watch to see how long it had been going.

I'm really interested to see how the books do it. I'm sure there will be a lot of differences.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

I disagree it was a Hollywood happy ending. That would have been if Jon and Dany figured out how to sit on the throne together or even Jon being able to take the throne after killing Dany. This ending also wasn't early GoT either but I don't think that type of ending would have been satisfying either. This was about the best compromise between those extremes.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

MikeekiM said:


> Also, how did Tyrion the prisoner become the voice for the leadership. I found it unrealistic that the nomination of Bran came from him.


I assume, prisoner or not, that he would now be Lord of Casterly Rock. Those present were Lords and Ladies of the major houses...Winterfell, Storm's End, Pyke, Riverrun, I didn't recognize them all, looked like Dorne was represented...


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Meh.

It wasn't a bad finale. I just didn't feel it was a _good_ finale either. I suppose I'm just happy enough they didn't thoroughly screw it up, like so many other series do. It was alright.

I was saying at the screen "_You're never going to have a better shot than this, Jon Snow_" right before he ended Dany. I was fine with how this went down, rather than some elaborate fight or elaborate assassination, or whatnot. A simple dagger to the heart. Of course Jon Snow couldn't simply tell Grey Worm that she slipped and fell on the sharp throne made out of swords, or she hopped on Drogon and few away, or some other ready excuse. Typical Jon Snow probably made a full and immediate confession.

Every time I thought most of Dany's Dothraki were killed off, she still seemed to have hordes of Dothraki.

Putting every single Lord (and Lady) of the realm under one tent, while you still have unsullied, dothraki, and one dragon in serious emotional distress unaccounted for, seemed like a risky move.

I did like the reaction to Sam's democracy proposal. "_I might as well ask my horse!_"

Arya the explorer would be the best spinoff ever. Or a total flop. I think it'd be worth the gamble.

At least they confirmed for us at the very beginning that Jaime and Cersei were dead, otherwise people would still be arguing about it. Pity they didn't move over about twenty feet or so, then all those people who thought Cersie survived would have had their moment!

Is Jon going to be the new "King beyond the wall"? I hope so.

Now, what I didn't like. I don't think "Bran the Broken" should have won the game. 3ER seems detached from the reality, in the previous episode he even made the comment "_I mostly live in the past now_". Stares blankly much of the time. Seems like a complete weirdo. Just doesn't sound like the person you'd make king, unless you're trying to wrap up the whole series in some happy package with a bow on top. I also thought Grey Worm deserved to not survive to the end, for the war crimes he committed in the previous episode and in the finale.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Drogon did Bran a real solid turning the Iron Throne into the Iron Ramp.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And Lord Commander Jon Snow as well


Did they show he was made Lord Commander, or are you just assuming? My take when he looked back at the gate was that he is going with the Freefolk and wasn't coming back.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I was both satisfied and disappointed with the ending, which I suppose averages out to a "meh". But like most averages, it doesn't capture the full story.

While I was satisfied with where everything ended up, I was disappointed by what could have been. There was so much richness in this series that I felt was left untapped. The ending felt to me like, "Jon kills Daenerys, and everyone lives happily ever after." I don't mean this in the sense that everyone was happy, but more in the sense that everything after that climactic moment felt like a rushed conclusion.

I wanted to wait until having seen how everything wrapped up before passing judgment, but I do agree with a lot of what the articles people posted in the previous thread were saying about pantsers vs. plotters. In retrospect, though, the past two seasons don't feel to me like the series became too plot-focused; they feel like the series became too specific-plot-focused. Namely, everything revolved around Jon killing Daenerys, and all other story arcs were afterthoughts.

While earlier seasons had plots that naturally led to epic moments, the moments in the past two seasons felt more artificially epic, as if they were designed specifically to feel dramatic to cover up their lack of importance. The problem with too many of these artificial moments, however, is that they remind people, at least on the subconscious level, that the story is fiction.

And yes, the story is fiction. But a well written story allows one to get lost in it, to feel that one is a part of the world that the author created. That's how I felt through the first six seasons. In the past two seasons, however, I have felt increasingly more like Bran, merely an outside observer of events. And, like Bran, while I am glad everything worked out the way it did for those that survived, I don't feel the same connection to them or their world that I once did.

The funny thing is that many of the things that upset others didn't upset me. Jaime's story arc didn't bother me at all. And while I wouldn't have minded if Daenerys' turn had been more gradual, having her snap like she did didn't bother me nearly as much as some.

I guess what bothered me overall was the general sense of a loss of care put into the intricacies of the story for the sake of theater. Even just as recently as the last episode, we saw Arya riding away on a horse. That made for a nice dramatic end scene, but then that horse was completely forgotten in this episode.

It was great that Sansa asked for and was granted independence, but what about Yara's deal with Daenerys for independence? Even though Daenerys was dead, I doubt Bran would have tried to use that as a technicality to go back on the deal. Yara didn't even bother asking, however. She just voted for Bran along with everyone else who was staying a part of the Westerosi kingdoms.

I also would have preferred the explanation for Daenerys' burning of King's Landing to have been more nuanced, with her justifying it by either saying she didn't believe they were actually surrendering or needed to make a statement by demonstrating her power. Instead, it boiled down to her being mad to the point of not even feeling the need to justify the killing of innocents. While she did say that Cersei had been using them as a weapon, she didn't bother explaining why she thought that weapon had still been a threat.

As a whole I enjoyed the series, and am glad to have watched all of it. Even as it ended up playing out, I still consider it to have been better than most other shows I have seen. But in the end I was left feeling that it could have been so much more. I can only hope the children of this show will do better than their father.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Danny never GOT to sit on the Iron Throne.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> Did they show he was made Lord Commander, or are you just assuming? My take when he looked back at the gate was that he is going with the Freefolk and wasn't coming back.


Well, he was sent to Castle Black, and it's pretty clear that he was to be the new Lord Commander. But it also looks like he's assuming a very different role on his own.


brianp6621 said:


> I disagree it was a Hollywood happy ending. That would have been if Jon and Dany figured out how to sit on the throne together or even Jon being able to take the throne after killing Dany. This ending also wasn't early GoT either but I don't think that type of ending would have been satisfying either. This was about the best compromise between those extremes.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I said earlier. It WAS a Hollywood ending...by Game of Thrones standards. By human standards, not so much...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

It was ok. It wasn't the ending I would have written but I'm not the author. But if I was...

Jon should have been dead as soon as Grey Worm found out about his queen's death but this show has kept a Kingslayer around for years so I can understand that. Dany's loyal forces should have been a LOT more angry.

Drogon nudging Dany's body, trying to get her to wake up was sad.

I grew to not like Sansa as the season progressed. I was astounded that the leaders of the other kingdoms just sat their and took it when Sansa essentially said "Bleep ya'll subservient clowns. The North will be independent. Because I said so."

I'd have put my money on the Unsullied and Dothraki against the North's armies since wars on this show seem to last only one day but they'd pretty much have no supply lines to wage a real war.

This story was essentially anchored around the Stark family so them being the show's "winners" makes sense but Bran the Broken being King of the Seven Kingdoms makes little sense to me. I get the symbolism of an iron throne being replaced by a simple wooden wheelchair. I just don't think that the show established his back story enough in context with the other major subplots so that everyone's reaction when Tyrion nominated him wouldn't be "Huh? Him?"

I kept wondering when Bronn would show up. I'm not sure the slapstick routine at the end is how I would have done it.

If this were my story, Dany would be ruling the known world being benevolent when needed and being tyrannical when she had to be. But it's not my story so I'm ok with how it ended. I don't think any ending would have satisfied the people who are determined to be pissed off.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

I vote for a Ghost spin off series.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I get that it probably wouldn’t matter to the unsullied, but no one thinks to mention that Jon is the rightful heir to the throne?

No one has a more interesting story?
Um, Jon? Arya?

Bran’s story is pretty meh, and seems out of character for him to accept being king.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

SullyND said:


> I get that it probably wouldn't matter to the unsullied, but no one thinks to mention that Jon is the rightful heir to the throne?


That gets back to my whole Bran problem. Why should anybody believe his (and Sam's) account of Jon's parentage? Nobody but Bran seemed to have any idea what a Three Eyed Raven was so why should his word be taken as gospel?


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Sansa and the North get to go free, but Yara and the Iron Born bend the knee?


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

The Sam Tarly democracy speech seemed out of place in the council meeting. I could see him bringing it up in a smaller venue talking to friends, etc. but the whole "elect a King" scene was very rushed without laying any groundwork.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> That gets back to my whole Bran problem. Why should anybody believe his (and Sam's) account of Jon's parentage? Nobody but Bran seemed to have any idea what a Three Eyed Raven was so why should his word be taken as gospel?


You must have missed the brief scene where Bran predicted the King's Landing Lotto numbers, to prove his mental abilities.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

cheesesteak said:


> That gets back to my whole Bran problem. Why should anybody believe his (and Sam's) account of Jon's parentage? Nobody but Bran seemed to have any idea what a Three Eyed Raven was so why should his word be taken as gospel?


I thought that the wedding of Jon's parents was documeted (didn't Sam see it?). Is there a reason why those documents can't be obtained?


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Clearly I'm in the minority, but I thought it was an awful ending. 

Bran the Broken? King? John banished with no mention of his legal claim to the throne (regardless of whether or not he wanted it)? The Northmen bowing down to Sansa as she walks by? No impactful role whatsoever for Arya in the last two episodes? Grey Worm's absolutely ridiculous stance re Tyrian ("you don't talk" - well okay, go ahead and give a speech)? And then Tyrian being the one to identify Bran as the new ruler? Tyrian unilaterally deciding future rulers would be selected by committee? 

Nah - didn't work for me at all.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Tony_T said:


> I thought that the wedding of Jon's parents was documeted (didn't Sam see it?). Is there a reason why those documents can't be obtained?


But what would stop claims of it being a forgery since only so few people knew of its existence?


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

This ep highlighted another nitpick from last week: When looking for his siblings, Tyrion confronted a pile of ruble with a crack of light at the top and just started climbing. When J & C ran into the same thing while trying to survive, it didn't occur to them to try climbing the pile.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

ADG said:


> Grey Worm's absolutely ridiculous stance re Tyrian ("you don't talk" - well okay, go ahead and give a speech)? And then Tyrian being the one to identify Bran as the new ruler? Tyrian unilaterally deciding future rulers would be selected by committee?


Grey Worm saying that Tyrian is a traitor to the realm, brings him in chains to participate in the council meeting to pick the King, but they don't allow Jon, the rightful heir to the throne to even listen in?


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> Did they show he was made Lord Commander, or are you just assuming? My take when he looked back at the gate was that he is going with the Freefolk and wasn't coming back.


Agreed. The King doesnt select the Lord Commander. And John's watch ended once before. I also agree that he was heading North to live his life there where the cold climate will give him a reason to pout and brood all of the time.

Once G-Worm and the seemingly endless Unsullied army left town why not bring John back? "We were only kidding Aegon, come back." That probably keeps the Nort in the 7 kingdoms and Bran can be the Master of Whispers since he can hack into the past and see/hear conversations.

How did Sam get to be the Grand Maester? Nice shoe horning of the book series title into the finale.

Why did Sansa feel the need to tell everyone Bran's peeper was broken as well? THanks sis!.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

It seems that a lot of people are upset that the ending wasn't what they expected. That's a good thing! Did you expect Ned to lose his head? Did you expect the Red Wedding? Aren't the unexpected things part of the reason that this show stood out and you watched it?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Legion said:


> Agreed. The King doesnt select the Lord Commander. And John's watch ended once before. I also agree that he was heading North to live his life there where the cold climate will give him a reason to pout and brood all of the time.


But he was explicitly sent to the Wall to rejoin the Night's Watch. Obviously, he had other plans, but that was his "sentence."


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> The ending of GoT is that there is no more game of thrones. They showed us that metaphorically and physically (Drogon destroying the throne)


I didn't buy the part about no more heirs to the throne. First who is ti say Bran can't have kids. I assume because if the paralysis thing, but if Sam can dig up a cure to grayscale hidden in the texts, who know what else can can find. Second, even if we assume Bran can't have kids, is that going to be their criteria for picking every King from now on? Otherwise it's all fine to say that's the new rule, but once someone else has the power, try and stop them. I thought Bran could pass along his power and all future rules could be 3 eyes Ravens. Not sure how well that will work with the threat of the Night King gone (which I thought was the whole point of the 3ER, but I guess they never gave us a thorough explanation for that either)



smbaker said:


> At least they confirmed for us at the very beginning that Jaime and Cersei were dead, otherwise people would still be arguing about it. Pity they didn't move over about twenty feet or so, then all those people who thought Cersie survived would have had their moment!


Last episode I thought it looked like light at the top of one of the rubble filled doorways and I was wondering why Jamie didn't try to climb over the rubble. Then I just dismissed the idea, but then Tyrion did exactly that this episode.



JETarpon said:


> Drogon did Bran a real solid turning the Iron Throne into the Iron Ramp.


My favorite 3 posts on Reddit last night were a reply chain:
1) Drogon thinking "all this for a chair"
2) Drogon just made it wheelchair accessible
3) Chaos is a ramp


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

tlc said:


> This ep highlighted another nitpick from last week: When looking for his siblings, Tyrion confronted a pile of ruble with a crack of light at the top and just started climbing. When J & C ran into the same thing while trying to survive, it didn't occur to them to try climbing the pile.


During that scene I thought "good thing Tyrion is short".

Tyrion was coming from the keep. C & J didn't want to go that way, they wanted to go out the other way, down the stairs back to the skiff. I don't think it would have helped much, in terms of survivability, for them to go back up to the castle.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

If I were Jon, I would've stripped naked, thrown my clothes in the fire that Drogon made, and proclaimed that I'm impervious to fire like Dany 

As others have said, it really bugged me that all the other houses didn't say "well, if Sansa can be independent, so will I".

Unless the 3-eyed raven will beget the next 3-eyed raven King, this line of succession of electing the next king is exactly why the birth succession plan was put into place. This current system might as well be called "we will have a civil war every time the king dies in order to establish who the next king will be".


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Did anyone else get an Avengers eating shawarma vibe from that final council scene where they were gathered around the table bickering?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

BrettStah said:


> Will Arya land at Plymouth Rock, or somewhere in the Caribbean, I wonder?


Rhûn


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

A blah ending to a horrible season.

So Dany didn't go mad. This was a cold calculated move by someone who knew what she was doing. It wasn't an emotional decision to burn down the city that apologists were claiming last week. They tried hard to sell the viewer that this was consistent with her character. Tyrion named all the other slaughters, as if he didn't buy it. Was anybody else?

When Bran said, "This is what I came back for" after Tyrion asked him if he wanted to be king, that didn't send a red flag up?

Jamie really was the king slayer since he evidently killed the real Bran in the first episode. 

Someone compared this to being better than the Lost finale, but Big Bang, a comedy on network television, blew away this finale.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

smak said:


> In fact, isn't everybody in the series who wanted the throne dead?


Well, Edmure survived.



Anubys said:


> As others have said, it really bugged me that all the other houses didn't say "well, if Sansa can be independent, so will I".


Or "Wait! That was an option?!"


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

After giving it some thought, I liked the ending. Was this the best episode of the series, not by a long shot. But, I feel this captured what the show was about. To paraphrase what Cersei said to Ned, "If you play the game of thrones, you die". At the end of the day, everyone who thought they should be king/queen is now dead and a new day has arisen in Westeros. 

While, it has be somewhat obvious, I liked how Jon killed Dany. Very private and while in basically telling her he still loved her. For a moment, I wasn't even 100% sure who stabbed whom. Drogon trying to wake Dany up was the one of the saddest scenes in the whole series. 

I can accept the ultimate ending, Bran on the Throne (guess, we can't call it the Iron Throne anymore). Sansa pulling the North from the 7 kingdoms, didn't bother me too much. She basically was "we saved all your a***es, try and stop us". The scene with Sam suggesting a democracy was funny, but a little out of place. However, Sansa telling Edmure to sit down and shut up was funny. (It took me a moment to figure out who that was.) 

I liked the small council meeting. It felt like the type of funny moment that was a part of GOT for a long time. 

Yes, there were things I had to suspend disbelief. Both Jon and Tyrion should have been long dead. Dany didn't let her prisioners live very long and Jon should have been dead by Grey Worm's hand as soon as he was discovered. 

It will be interesting to see where this show ranks as the years past. Will people remember it fondly for all the great seasons we had or will the final 2 seasons be its legacy?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> I was talking to the screen "oh hi how nice of you all to be not dead suddenly". I don't get it either. There was no need to show so many, as they served no real purpose in the episode.


And after 2 battles and endless travel, they can stand at attention indefinitely. I guess they don't get thirsty.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

madscientist said:


> Tyrion was coming from the keep. C & J didn't want to go that way, they wanted to go out the other way, down the stairs back to the skiff. I don't think it would have helped much, in terms of survivability, for them to go back up to the castle.


 I didn't say it was the same _pile_. J & C walked right up to their pile because it was the direction they were trying to go.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

What I got from this episode:

1. Brienne of Tarth has mediocre penmanship and doesn't seem to know that you need to blot or dry your ink before closing a book when writing with fountain ink. She should have dictated this to a scribe.

2. Finally resolves beyond any reasonable argument that the common tongue of Westeros is English, spoken and written.

3. Nobody in this thread would recognize an excellent ending if it smacked them in their collective face.


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## HoosierFan (May 8, 2001)

When Dany was speaking to the crowd:
1) How did anyone hear her?
2) How did everyone understand her? Wasn't she speaking Dothraki? When she started off with Blood of my Blood, I assumed that, but is there a language that everyone understands other than English?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Family said:


> So Dany didn't go mad. This was a cold calculated move by someone who knew what she was doing. It wasn't an emotional decision to burn down the city that apologists were claiming last week. They tried hard to sell the viewer that this was consistent with her character. Tyrion named all the other slaughters, as if he didn't buy it. Was anybody else?


That wasn't Tyrion's point. He was saying that it was ok (i.e. we all made excuses for her) when she was cruel to bad people; when she showed no mercy to evil people. But maybe now we see that she is just cruel and will show no mercy to anyone who opposes her, not just evil people. If you oppose her vision, you deserve her cruelty.

The fact that those who opposed her at the beginning were all evil people was just a happy coincidence. Now Tyrion and Jon see that non-evil people also get the same fate.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Tyrion


HoosierFan said:


> When Dany was speaking to the crowd:
> 1) How did anyone hear her?
> 2) How did everyone understand her? Wasn't she speaking Dothraki? When she started off with Blood of my Blood, I assumed that, but is there a language that everyone understands other than English?


1) I wondered the same thing - maybe the acoustics were just great there? 
2) I think she spoke Dothraki to the Dothraki, and Valyrian to the unsullied.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

HoosierFan said:


> When Dany was speaking to the crowd:
> 1) How did anyone hear her?
> 2) How did everyone understand her? Wasn't she speaking Dothraki? When she started off with Blood of my Blood, I assumed that, but is there a language that everyone understands other than English?


Reminds me of the scene in Barry last night, where Fuchs is talking to the mob of gangsters ready to start a war, and they can't hear what he's saying.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Regarding the North being free: the thing that bothered me about this was the Iron Islands. There's no way that Yara would agree to Bran as King of the Iron Islands if Sansa wouldn't for the North, especially given what she'd been promised by Dany.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Yep










Also have seen a few of these themes about Bran...

Bran: I don't want to be king, I'm the three eyed raven.

Tyrion: Bran should be king.

Also Bran: Why do you think I came here?

Me: ???


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

NYT Review/Recap:
'Game of Thrones' Series Finale Recap: All Hail King Who?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Bran? King? A 3ER who lives in the past and stares into space? Then I thought about the previous rulers. Dani, Cersi, Joffrey, even Robert. Suddenly, Bran doesn't seem like a bad choice.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I thought it was a satisfying ending. At the first slow fade to black I was yelling that they didn't have a scene reuniting Jon with Ghost. 

In a show where nobody ever got what they wanted, it made sense for each of the Starks to find some semblance of peace. 

My take on Jon: sending him to the Night's Watch was a ruse to save his life. Once he got to the wall, there wasn't a single Crow there. It was all Free Folk. He went north of the wall to live his life with them.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

CNN's review/recap is pretty funny:
'Game of Thrones' finale recap: Ashes to ashes 'Game of Thrones' Season 8 finale recap: Ashes to ashes - CNN



> As our group of heroes sets about the task of bringing the continent back from the edge of ruin and we leave the Starks, the Lannisters and the world of Westeros forever, the last singular spoken words of this legendary series will ring in our hearts forever:
> 
> "I once brought a jackass and a honeycomb into a brothel."
> 
> Play us off, Ramin!


On a side note, the Vegas oddsmakers had Bran picked weeks ago.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Long live Bran the Boring.


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

Was Theon not in the final episode? I didn't notice him with the iron born at the kings moot.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

dwatt said:


> Was Theon not in the final episode? I didn't notice him with the iron born at the kings moot.


You missed a crucial Theon scene a couple of episodes ago.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

markp99 said:


> Long live Bran the Boring.


Why can't he have kids? Poor guy, his sister had to tell everyone he can't.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

dwatt said:


> Was Theon not in the final episode? I didn't notice him with the iron born at the kings moot.


Maybe his ashes were in the water bottle next to Sam's foot


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

My biggest problem with the series as a whole is that he Night King turned out to essentially be just a scene stealing nothingburger. Every other character had a reason, a motivation for their actions. The Night King was essentially just a personification of cancer. He just killed and destroyed because that's what he does. No reasoning or goal behind it. All Arya got out of killing him was a couple of "Hip, hip hoorays!" and he was pretty much forgotten twenty minutes after he evaporated with three episodes to go. 

Dany walking around without bodyguards was pretty stupid. There's no way Jon should have been allowed near her with a weapon at that point of their deteriorating relationship. Even the Night King kept his boys around him. They sucked at their job but they were there.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

dslunceford said:


> Also have seen a few of these themes about Bran...
> 
> Bran: I don't want to be king, I'm the three eyed raven.
> 
> ...


Subtle difference with what was actually said though - Tyrion asked Bran, despite Bran not wanting to be king, would he accept being chosen as king.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Now I have to check what else I watch on HBO to justify my subscription. It definitely isn't the movies.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think she's just philosophically opposed to the North being part of the Kingdoms...especially since when Bran dies, who knows who will become King/Queen and how they will treat the North?


I was actually surprised they actually went with a "king". Why not just become 7 separate kingdoms with a treaty that issues their sovereignty and also guarantees peace between them? It's not like having a king/queen ever solved any internal squabble between them anyway? Just what I figured would happen after Dany was killed and Drogon destroyed the throne (I figured that was symbolic).


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

BrettStah said:


> You missed a crucial Theon scene a couple of episodes ago.





dslunceford said:


> Maybe his ashes were in the water bottle next to Sam's foot


Not missed. Forgot about.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

The endpoints of Jon and Sansa were satisfying. How they got there this episode wasn’t. Definitely felt rushed to me. Bronn on the council was ridiculous and obviously fan service. 

Grey Worm would never “accept” Jon’s punishment... not sure about the Dothraki.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> Hey, David Chase! This is how you end a series.
> 
> While not a fan of Dany's descent into power hungry madness, this episode rang true. Rather than big plots of how to get rid of her (my personal theory was Arya killing Greyworm, taking his form, and killing Dany), this was so much better. In the final embrace, I was thinking "stab the *****!" with the expectation it wouldn't happen. I was pleasantly surprised at the whole episode. Now I just want a series entitled "West of Westeros."
> 
> Finally, I have a question. What happened to the Unsullied? Back to Esos? And what about Dany's lover, who was left in charge there?


I think Jon killing Dany was a callback to season one where Ned teaches his kids that if you're going to convict someone of a crime, be the one who hands out the sentence (or something like that). Jon ultimately did just that.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Here's some more thoughts.....

To quote one of my favorite characters, Chuck, Supernatural, Season 5 Episode 22 ".....endings are hard....."

Yes, they are. I wasn't thrilled with Bran as King, but I could see some logic in it. Peter Dinklage really did an excellent job in that scene in front of the council (the one where they picked the new King), he was terrific in that scene.

I feel more positively oriented toward the series and this ending than this reviewer (very much worth reading): 'Game of Thrones' Series Finale Recap: All Hail King Who?

But, in this paragraph, he does a pretty good job of summarizing how I feel about this ending:

"....Jon's assassination of Daenerys was the stuff of Greek tragedy - a man murdering his lover for the greater good. (And here's where I brag about bringing up Maester Aemon's "love is the death of duty" speech back in Week 2.) Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington gave moving performances, but the scene lacked the impact it deserved because the turn that got us there was unconvincing....."

And, that's about right. Given what happened in Episode 5 of season 8, this ending was the best they could do, in my opinion. And their best is still really really good. Perfect? No! But given what happened in previous episodes, it wrapped things up as best as could be expected.

Which is good enough, at least for me.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I was actually surprised they actually went with a "king". Why not just become 7 separate kingdoms with a treaty that issues their sovereignty and also guarantees peace between them? It's not like having a king/queen ever solved any internal squabble between them anyway? Just what I figured would happen after Dany was killed and Drogon destroyed the throne (I figured that was symbolic).


This is what I was expecting. The Targaryens came, conquered, and "created" the Realm - all seven kingdoms under one monarch.

There were two remaining Targaryens - the one who didn't want the throne killed his aunt, who did. He renounces his claim and is exiled. Why not just go back to how it was before? The North wasn't the only independent kingdom before the Targaryens consolidated power.


----------



## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But he was explicitly sent to the Wall to rejoin the Night's Watch. Obviously, he had other plans, but that was his "sentence."


Yes they did. But you inferred earlier that he was sent to be Lord Commander which is what JETarpon, and myself, didnt see the same way.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> For a show that has stumbled so much during this season, it's impressive how satisfying the finalé was. It's like they got all of the missteps out of the way the past few episodes. King Bran works for me, as does Queen Sansa. And Lord Commander Jon Snow as well, although now the Night's Watch will actually be what everybody always erroneously assumed it was...busy-work to keep the bastards and broken people occupied.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

dslunceford said:


> Yep
> 
> Also have seen a few of these themes about Bran...
> 
> ...


Bran was playing the slow game, he intended to be King of Westeros all along. He only said he didn't want to be King of the North if I recall.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> The endpoints of Jon and Sansa were satisfying. How they got there this episode wasn't. Definitely felt rushed to me. Bronn on the council was ridiculous and obviously fan service.
> 
> Grey Worm would never "accept" Jon's punishment... not sure about the Dothraki.


But it wasn't. Tyrion and Jaime promised him Highgarden if he didn't kill them and they won the war. Highgarden is the richest province now (since there's no more gold at Cassterly Rock) and also the major source of food since it doesn't suffer winter as badly as the rest of the continent. This is why he's master of coin and must be part of the ruling body.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> I was actually surprised they actually went with a "king". Why not just become 7 separate kingdoms with a treaty that issues their sovereignty and also guarantees peace between them? It's not like having a king/queen ever solved any internal squabble between them anyway? Just what I figured would happen after Dany was killed and Drogon destroyed the throne (I figured that was symbolic).


Change happens slowly, that's why Sam's democracy was laughed away, it would have been too big of a stretch IMO.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Grey Worm would never "accept" Jon's punishment... not sure about the Dothraki.


I think this might have been another victim of this season's "shorthand writing." Grey Worm has never, ever had a thought of his own that didn't involve Missandrei...he has always been the ultimate loyal soldier just following orders. Once Dany was dead, there was nobody to give him orders; he was just looking for somebody (a new king) to tell him what to do. That's why he didn't execute Tyrion or Jon, no matter how much he wanted to...because nobody had ordered him to.


Legion said:


> Yes they did. But you inferred earlier that he was sent to be Lord Commander which is what JETarpon, and myself, didnt see the same way.


If not Jon, then who?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Who the bleep *cares* what Greyworm would accept or not? He's a soldier and a war criminal. Him telling Tyrion to be quiet was beyond stupid. Someone should have spoken up and put him in his place.


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

Come on, man, not one but two water bottles visible in the episode? : Plastic water bottle visible during finale of Game of Thrones - CNN


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Anubys said:


> But it wasn't. Tyrion and Jaime promised him Highgarden if he didn't kill them and they won the war. Highgarden is the richest province now (since there's no more gold at Cassterly Rock) and also the major source of food since it doesn't suffer winter as badly as the rest of the continent. This is why he's master of coin and must be part of the ruling body.


They had no reason to keep that promise, and even if they did, having him as a permanent council member undermines the basic premise of what was seen. It was 100% fan service.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

My biggest disappointment is that all this buildup about Jon's true identity (I believe it's been reported that D&D only got the gig after correctly identifying his parents to GRRM) had ZERO payoff. I was under the impression that this was the biggest plot point of the entire series. In the end, the only living people who know are the Starks and Tyrion and Sam (possibly Howland Reed)?

Shouldn't the assembled nobles have this information before making any important decisions? How would the Unsullied/Dothraki react if they knew Jon was really Aegon Targaryen?

There were some beautiful shots throughout this season - some of the best you'll ever see on television. When Drogon came up out of the snow, and they went out to the wide shot of him staring down Jon - absolutely breathtaking.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

anybody else see Dany having her first orgasm when she finally touched the iron throne?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> They had no reason to keep that promise, and even if they did, having him as a permanent council member undermines the basic premise of what was seen. It was 100% fan service.


except that he's Tyrion's friend, is an excellent fighter, and highgarden needed an ally and a tough SOB to run it? then, no, other than those reasons, I can't think of any reason to pay a debt that a Lannister owed. No reason at all.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MacThor said:


> My biggest disappointment is that all this buildup about Jon's true identity (I believe it's been reported that D&D only got the gig after correctly identifying his parents to GRRM) had ZERO payoff. I was under the impression that this was the biggest plot point of the entire series. In the end, the only living people who know are the Starks and Tyrion and Sam (possibly Howland Reed)?
> 
> Shouldn't the assembled nobles have this information before making any important decisions? How would the Unsullied/Dothraki react if they knew Jon was really Aegon Targaryen?


The Dothraki and the Unsullied woulkdn't have cared. They were on Dany's side, not the Targaryans. Given Jon's insistence on not being king, that would have introduced a completely unnecessary level of chaos among the Westerosi to the proceedings...

Which makes me a little surprised Sansa didn't bring it up.


----------



## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> NYT Review/Recap:
> 'Game of Thrones' Series Finale Recap: All Hail King Who?


TL;DR, but if the title is any indication, it aligns with what some of my friends have been saying...

If stories, power, credibility and acceptance are driving factors in choosing a leader, how is it that Bran, a largely unknown person in the 7 kingdoms, can be accepted as a legitimate leader in the 6 kingdoms? Maybe because he carries the Stark name? Perhaps...

It would have been more believable if he had an arc like Jon Snow did...he had a much slower boil to power as "King of the North". And I think I would buy it more if they had invested more in building Bran's credibility over a longer period of time... The emotional impact of that could have been epic...

And one could argue that they had less episodes, and didn't have the time to invest in his story. Wasn't this a self inflicted wound? Why did they decide to make seasons 7 and 8 abbreviated seasons? There could have been so much more story telling, with a more satisfying slower boil...

Now that I have had time to process and digest, I am not so disappointed with Bran as the ruler... I just feel that they didn't do a good job of selling his story to me. I think done well, a compelling story could have been told of Bran's rise to power. My opinion only...

But I guess if they told that story, we'd see this ending coming...and they would lose the shock value...


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Anubys said:


> except that he's Tyrion's friend, is an excellent fighter, and highgarden needed an ally and a tough SOB to run it? then, no, other than those reasons, I can't think of any reason to pay a debt that a Lannister owed. No reason at all.


Nope, not his friend. Hasn't been for a while. Agreeing to do something under duress is hardly a debt. If they wanted it to be a Lannister debt they could have written the scene where they agreed to it better. Regardless, he has no place being anywhere near a leadership role. They've already corrupted the council that was supposed to be a new way forward.


----------



## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> If not Jon, then who?


Maybe it was one of those big bastards following Aegon around on the docks....dressed all in black fur. Like Yoren, maybe they escorted future KW brothers north so they didnt go missing along the way.


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

I like how it only took 5 minutes to completely restructure the entire ingrained political system of Westeros based on a speech by an accused criminal. So realistic .


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

tomhorsley said:


> I like how it only took 5 minutes to completely restructure the entire ingrained political system of Westeros based on a speech by an accused criminal. So realistic .


He was only a criminal in Grey Worms eyes.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tomhorsley said:


> I like how it only took 5 minutes to completely restructure the entire ingrained political system of Westeros based on a speech by an accused criminal. So realistic .


Realistically, they didn't restructure it...they just postponed the debate until Bran's death.

I guess kicking the can down the road is an affliction of Westerosi as well as American politicians! 


brianp6621 said:


> He was only a criminal in Grey Worms eyes.


Well, in Queen Dany's eyes as well, which actually matters...the only reason he was still alive was that she hadn't gotten around to executing him before she died.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Legion said:


> Agreed. The King doesnt select the Lord Commander. And John's watch ended once before. I also agree that he was heading North to live his life there where the cold climate will give him a reason to pout and brood all of the time.


One thing I have thought consistently through this series is what a very lousy actor Kit Harrington is.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Bronn made much more sense being there than Brienne. As far as I know her father is still alive and is the head of House Tarth.

Sam, I get, even though he is technically still in the Night's Watch. But Brienne? In not talking about her being on the Small Council, but electing the new King.

(Which reminds me of Monty Python - "Well, I didn't vote for you!")


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Realistically, they didn't restructure it...they just postponed the debate until Bran's death.
> 
> I guess kicking the can down the road is an affliction of Westerosi as well as American politicians!


I think it is at least the beginning of a restructuring when he is the first chosen leader of the Six kingdoms.

I'll say it again, the Game of Thrones, the iron throne is dead. That's how the series ended, not with Bran succeeding Cersei/Dany.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, in Queen Dany's eyes as well, which actually matters...the only reason he was still alive was that she hadn't gotten around to executing him before she died.


Yes that's what I mean but she is dead at that point and therefore her accusation continues through grey worm.

But this is a situation of beheading the snake. There was no structure left to fall back on which is why it's at least plausible that what happened, happened. There was nothing left behind of how Dany planned to rule as almost all here high ranking supporters were no longer "with" her.


----------



## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

MikeekiM said:


> TL;DR, but if the title is any indication, it aligns with what some of my friends have been saying...
> 
> And one could argue that they had less episodes, and didn't have the time to invest in his story. Wasn't this a self inflicted wound? Why did they decide to make seasons 7 and 8 abbreviated seasons? There could have been so much more story telling, with a more satisfying slower boil...


Fewer


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

SullyND said:


> Why can't he have kids? Poor guy, his sister had to tell everyone he can't.


My sister told her boss that. Which is why we now have a kid. Doh.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

smbaker said:


> I was saying at the screen "_You're never going to have a better shot than this, Jon Snow_" right before he ended Dany. I was fine with how this went down, rather than some elaborate fight or elaborate assassination, or whatnot. A simple dagger to the heart. Of course Jon Snow couldn't simply tell Grey Worm that she slipped and fell on the sharp throne made out of swords, or she hopped on Drogon and few away, or some other ready excuse. Typical Jon Snow probably made a full and immediate confession.


I was saying since last week that I felt she had to die and it would be Jon's doing but I admit when he started kissing her, for a solid 15 seconds I was thinking they might just go the dual ruling route, right up to the point that he stabbed her. I really did not think he had it in him.



cheesesteak said:


> Drogon nudging Dany's body, trying to get her to wake up was sad.
> 
> I grew to not like Sansa as the season progressed. I was astounded that the leaders of the other kingdoms just sat their and took it when Sansa essentially said "Bleep ya'll subservient clowns. The North will be independent. Because I said so."


Drogon made me sad. He flies off alone with her body to where? He's just now all alone flying around the world or does he just go off to die? I don't like that.

Also I know it seems to be unpopular opinion but I did not like Sansa at all. Telling her uncle to sit was funny because we all know he's a buffoon but wtf is she to command anyone to not speak? And he just listened? Also her declaring the north to be free wasn't a question or a request, it was a statement/demand. I get that Bran won't be king forever but I still did not like that at all. And the north all chanting for her was weird.



TriBruin said:


> I liked the small council meeting. It felt like the type of funny moment that was a part of GOT for a long time.


 I agree. I thought that bit was just what we needed. The counsel meetings were always a bit of a comedy affair in past seasons.



ej42137 said:


> 3. Nobody in this thread would recognize an excellent ending if it smacked them in their collective face.


 There's a link at the bottom of the thread that says "Unwatch Thread". You're welcome to take your insults and go.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Drogon made me sad. He flies off alone with her body to where? He's just now all alone flying around the world or does he just go off to die? I don't like that.


I don't know what's wrong with you - guess you just don't listen. Drogon has joined his brothers at the Dragon Farm in NY State where they will live out the remainder of their lives in peace and tranquility (along with Dany's rotting corpse, apparently)


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

ADG said:


> I don't know what's wrong with you - guess you just don't listen. Drogon has joined his brothers at the Dragon Farm in NY State where they will live out the remainder of their lives in peace and tranquility (along with Dany's rotting corpse, apparently)


Oh yes the dragon farm! Thankfully he has a place in this new world!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jakerock said:


> My sister told her boss that. Which is why we now have a kid. Doh.


Jaime? is that you? you're still alive?!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

If there were more episodes to go, I would've made the prediction that all that melted iron from the throne would become valerian steel.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also I know it seems to be unpopular opinion but I did not like Sansa at all. Telling her uncle to sit was funny because we all know he's a buffoon but wtf is she to command anyone to not speak? And he just listened? Also her declaring the north to be free wasn't a question or a request, it was a statement/demand. I get that Bran won't be king forever but I still did not like that at all. And the north all chanting for her was weird.


I agree with you about Sansa. After all, the raping and torture is what made her the great woman she is today!

but, on a serious note, someone had to say to Edmund that he was making a fool of himself; and it's better coming from a family member. Recall that one of the two the battles he was listing as one of his accomplishments was the capture of some grain silo on some farm (or something silly like that).


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

I don't disagree about Sansa's new attitude - but as for her right to speak for the north keep in mind that as the Lady of Winterfell she _*is *_the de facto Warden of the North.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Also, did you catch the sprig of grass breaking thru the snow as they trudged north. Book Seven, _A Dream of Spring_.


I found that to be painfully obvious.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> You kinda missed the point. The ending of GoT is that there is no more game of thrones. They showed us that metaphorically and physically (Drogon destroying the throne)
> 
> I'm surprised so many think Dany or anyone else or even Jon ending up on the thrown would have been a satisfying ending.
> 
> Especially with after Jon killing Dany (which basically HAD to happen) there was absolutely no path for Jon and noone else made sense.


Lighting a chair on fire doesn't end the Game of Thrones.

It's politics and thousands of years of history and houses. They'll be fighting for the throne again soon enough.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

ADG said:


> I don't disagree about Sansa's new attitude - but as for her right to speak for the north keep in mind that as the Lady of Winterfell she _*is *_the de facto Warden of the North.


I wasn't questioning her right to request the north be free. She didn't request she just stated it as a demand.


----------



## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Lighting a chair on fire doesn't end the Game of Thrones.
> 
> It's politics and thousands of years of history and houses. They'll be fighting for the throne again soon enough.


I agree... The "Iron Throne" still exists in my opinion... The chair was just a physical manifestation of the "Iron Throne", but the true occupant of the figurative seat is the ruler of the 7 (now 6) kingdoms...

And maybe the term will go away with the physical representation destroyed...maybe they simply call it "the throne", or "the ruler of the X Kingdoms". But the "Iron Throne" is still in play... It's the monarchy...


----------



## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

Who were all of the groups at the King's Moot?
Left to right i saw
Maesters: Sam
??: guy between them
Riverrun: Edmure
The Starks: Arya, Bran and Sansa
The Airy: Make them fly boy, his minder.
Iron Islands: Yara
Dorne:

I didn't see Bron as he was a surprise at the small council meeting. What great houses are left?
There are some not listed and some I didn't recognize. I haven't found a still of that scene yet to fill in the blanks.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

I enjoyed Sansa saying "Uncle. Please sit." It was a nice callback to Robb Stark putting Edmure in his place early in the series.


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> That wasn't Tyrion's point. He was saying that it was ok (i.e. we all made excuses for her) when she was cruel to bad people; when she showed no mercy to evil people. But maybe now we see that she is just cruel and will show no mercy to anyone who opposes her, not just evil people. If you oppose her vision, you deserve her cruelty.


You missed my point. Tyrion's monologue purpose was a weak attempt by the writers to sell us, the viewers, that Dany's transformation was logical and in character.

Which it wasn't.


----------



## etexlady (Jun 23, 2002)

ej42137 said:


> What I got from this episode:
> 
> 1. Brienne of Tarth has mediocre penmanship and doesn't seem to know that you need to blot or dry your ink before closing a book when writing with fountain ink. She should have dictated this to a scribe.


Anyone else expect Brienne to enter in the record that Jamie had an heir born after his death?


----------



## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

@Rob Helmerichs, what might your thoughts be on the topic of the design of the medieval book "A Song of Ice and Fire"?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1130304407470370817


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

ct1 said:


> Sansa and the North get to go free, but Yara and the Iron Born bend the knee?


I was totally expecting the dude from Dorne to say "Uh wait, we'll be independent as well. It's too cold up here and we never really visit anyway."


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dwatt said:


> @Rob Helmerichs, what might your thoughts be on the topic of the design of the medieval book "A Song of Ice and Fire"?
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1130304407470370817


My thought is that Westeros is not actually medieval Europe...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think this might have been another victim of this season's "shorthand writing." Grey Worm has never, ever had a thought of his own that didn't involve Missandrei...he has always been the ultimate loyal soldier just following orders. Once Dany was dead, there was nobody to give him orders; he was just looking for somebody (a new king) to tell him what to do. That's why he didn't execute Tyrion or Jon, no matter how much he wanted to...because nobody had ordered him to.


People aren't that black and white. Greyworm not killing Tyrion for betraying his queen and not killing Jon for killing his queen was absurd.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

uncdrew said:


> Lighting a chair on fire doesn't end the Game of Thrones.
> 
> It's politics and thousands of years of history and houses. They'll be fighting for the throne again soon enough.


No the melting of the chair was the symbolism. The election of a new King and the agreement that going forward the rulers would be chosen by the Lord's and ladies of the realm is the embodiment of the end of the iron throne/game of thrones. It couldn't have been more obvious. The move entirely to a democracy was too much progress in such a short time and was rightfully shot down/mocked.

Dany broke the wheel, just not in the way she had hoped.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

wprager said:


> Bronn made much more sense being there than Brienne. As far as I know her father is still alive and is the head of House Tarth.
> 
> Sam, I get, even though he is technically still in the Night's Watch. But Brienne? In not talking about her being on the Small Council, but electing the new King.
> 
> (Which reminds me of Monty Python - "Well, I didn't vote for you!")


At least Davos said "I'm not sure I get a vote, but Aye."

Brienne should have said "I'm not sure why I'm even here".


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

MacThor said:


> I enjoyed Sansa saying "Uncle. Please sit." It was a nice callback to Robb Stark putting Edmure in his place early in the series.


I think that was Brynden aka Blackfish that callback was about.


Spoiler


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Family said:


> You missed my point. Tyrion's monologue purpose was a weak attempt by the writers to sell us, the viewers, that Dany's transformation was logical and in character.
> 
> Which it wasn't.


I disagree. I'm in the camp that it was entirely in character but the execution was rushed.

I also didn't have that take on Tyrion's speech. It was to clearly lay out for Jon, when Dany crossed the line to help Jon with his tough decision. It was council to Jon.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Is Bran going to turn into a tree at some point?


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

The thing that got me was that if you take Tyrion's speech and then change Bran's name to almost any other, it still works. Sansa....great story, Jon...great story, Sam...great story. Hell even Arya could have fit in there. They didn't give any compelling reason for Bran to be king. Not only that, but with Bran's comment "Why do you think I came all this way", that means he knew he'd be chosen, but he could only be chosen if Jon killed Dany. Jon would only kill Dany because she burned kings landing. So therefore Bran knew that King's landing would burn and thousands would die. Stupid reasons to be king.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> No the melting of the chair was the symbolism. The election of a new King and the agreement that going forward the rulers would be chosen by the Lord's and ladies of the realm is the embodiment of the end of the iron throne/game of thrones. It couldn't have been more obvious. The move entirely to a democracy was too much progress in such a short time and was rightfully shot down/mocked.
> 
> Dany broke the wheel, just not in the way she had hoped.


Nah, the houses will be jockeying for position in short order. They know Bran has no heir and greed and power will drive their actions.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

ct1 said:


> Is Bran going to turn into a tree at some point?


Bran is about as dynamic as a block of wood; I'd say the transformation has already begun!


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

I'm curious to see if this is going to be the only conclusion we get on this story. I think GRRM gets the next book out but the one after that is iffy at best.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

all of this "winter is coming" and I've seen worse November's in NY. What with all of the battles and dragon fire, you would think their crops are mostly wiped out. I thought the whole urgency of winter (aside from zombies) was having enough food saved up to get through. Certainly Winterfell and Jon's merry band north of the wall are going to have a hard time subsisting on rabbit meat.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

dwatt said:


> Who were all of the groups at the King's Moot?
> Maesters: Sam


I assumed he was representing House Tarly. A shame he left Gilly at home and she missed the finale.

I think the attendees were chosen by their show prominence rather than actual Kingdom/great houses.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Anubys said:


> but, on a serious note, someone had to say to Edmund that he was making a fool of himself; and it's better coming from a family member.


Edmure. Technically he's Tarly's family.

And as for what right Sansa had for saying it, she's taken over from Jon as the Warden of the North; at the time there was no Queen or King so she had the highest position at least in the North.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

ct1 said:


> I assumed he was representing House Tarly. A shame he left Gilly at home and she missed the finale.
> 
> I think the attendees were chosen by their show prominence rather than actual Kingdom/great houses.


Robin and Edmure and the un-named Dorne representative mentioned barely in passing once meet this criteria?


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

etexlady said:


> Anyone else expect Brienne to enter in the record that Jamie had an heir born after his death?


That was my immediate thought.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

wprager said:


> Edmure. Technically he's Tarly's family.
> 
> And as for what right Sansa had for saying it, she's taken over from Jon as the Warden of the North; at the time there was no Queen or King so she had the highest position at least in the North.


Tully not Tarly, two different houses


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

ct1 said:


> Is Bran going to turn into a tree at some point?


Hasn't he, already?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Nah, the houses will be jockeying for position in short order. They know Bran has no heir and greed and power will drive their actions.


Which will eventually lead to war. As the wheel turns...

I never paid attention to Kit Harrington's (lack of) height but Greyworm was significantly taller. How short must Emilia Clarke be?

I'd hate to be the next green eyed person Arya meets. She's due for a killing.

Apparently, regicide is just a misdemeanor in Westeros.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

uncdrew said:


> Nah, the houses will be jockeying for position in short order. They know Bran has no heir and greed and power will drive their actions.


The progress will be slow and certainly there will be hiccups but this was a decided change in a new direction. That was the point.


----------



## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

wprager said:


> Who the bleep *cares* what Greyworm would accept or not? He's a soldier and a war criminal. Him telling Tyrion to be quiet was beyond stupid. Someone should have spoken up and put him in his place.


Kings Landing was under martial law at that moment. Grey Worm was, for all intents and purposes, the acting ruler of the city.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> Tully not Tarly, two different houses


One of the problems of not having your screen size keeping up with your age, I'm afraid.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> all of this "winter is coming" and I've seen worse November's in NY. What with all of the battles and dragon fire, you would think their crops are mostly wiped out. I thought the whole urgency of winter (aside from zombies) was having enough food saved up to get through. Certainly Winterfell and Jon's merry band north of the wall are going to have a hard time subsisting on rabbit meat.


Maybe I misunderstood but to me "winter is coming" was always about the white walkers.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Martin Tupper said:


> Kings Landing was under martial law at that moment. Grey Worm was, for all intents and purposes, the acting ruler of the city.


He should have been arrested by his own troops for killing civilians.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

DavidTigerFan said:


> The thing that got me was that if you take Tyrion's speech and then change Bran's name to almost any other, it still works. Sansa....great story, Jon...great story, Sam...great story. Hell even Arya could have fit in there. They didn't give any compelling reason for Bran to be king. Not only that, but with Bran's comment "Why do you think I came all this way", that means he knew he'd be chosen, but he could only be chosen if Jon killed Dany. Jon would only kill Dany because she burned kings landing. So therefore Bran knew that King's landing would burn and thousands would die. Stupid reasons to be king.


The difference is bran as the TER is literally the embodiment of the past/memories of the land/realm. But again this ending wasnt so much about Bran being King as it was about a King being CHOSEN and the shift that means for the kingdoms.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

wprager said:


> He should have been arrested by his own troops for killing civilians.


I think that's the point. He was doing what his queen commanded then. She didn't command him to execute Tyrion and Jon because she dead so he didn't.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Honestly for me the main inconsistencies/questions were around Jon still being alive after killing Dany. 

Why didn't Drogon or Grey Worm/the unsullied kill him. I've read possible explanations for both but I don't really like them.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

She told Jon that all her enemies were to be killed.

It just turned out that she was her own worst enemy.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I think that's the point. He was doing what his queen commanded then. She didn't command him to execute Tyrion and Jon because she dead so he didn't.


Exactly. Greyworm is not an independent thinker. That is why he deferred to the council even with objection.


----------



## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

brianp6621 said:


> Maybe I misunderstood but to me "winter is coming" was always about the white walkers.


Yes. "Winter" has been postponed with the death of the Night King.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> Honestly for me the main inconsistencies/questions were around Jon still being alive after killing Dany.
> 
> Why didn't Drogon or Grey Worm/the unsullied kill him. I've read possible explanations for both but I don't really like them.


Why would Drogon kill him? It's a freaking dragon not a detective. He saw Jon there but Jon was a friend. He wouldn't think Jon killed her.

The only time greyworm acted without orders was when he restarted the battle last week. And that may have been on orders.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> For a moment, I wasn't even 100% sure who stabbed whom.


Same here. I'm trying to decide if that would've led to a more satisfying ending (though probably not in just 1 episode). But I'm not a good writer so I'm not about to humor myself to believe I could write something better.



morac said:


> a side note, the Vegas oddsmakers had Bran picked weeks ago


We're they taking actual bets on this? Seems like the type of thing that could very easily be leaked to a small group and exploited.



tomhorsley said:


> I like how it only took 5 minutes to completely restructure the entire ingrained political system of Westeros based on a speech by an accused criminal. So realistic .


Well we didn't even get enough episodes to cover the core story. Now you want them to fit in a detailed accounting of an entire political restructuring?



wprager said:


> Bronn made much more sense being there than Brienne. As far as I know her father is still alive and is the head of House Tarth.


I assume she could be sent there as a representative. We've seen that done before. Doran sent Oberyn (that was for health reasons, but that doesn't mean it can't be done for other reasons).



photoshopgrl said:


> Drogon made me sad. He flies off alone with her body to where? He's just now all alone flying around the world or does he just go off to die? I don't like that.


I assume he's flying back to valyria. That's were were dragons we're abundant hundreds of years ago (before the Doom). That's where Jorah and Tyrion saw Drogon when he disappeared for a while. That's where the Targaryen original came from.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

dwatt said:


> Yes. "Winter" has been postponed with the death of the Night King.


I half expected someone to say Summer is Coming.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I miss the Night King. That was a good villain but, as it turns out, that was all in our heads.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Well we didn't even get enough episodes to cover the core story. Now you want them to fit in a detailed accounting of an entire political restructuring?


That would not be wise. It didn't work well for Star Wars.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Why would Drogon kill him? It's a freaking dragon not a detective.


This made me laugh. Twice.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dwatt said:


> Yes. "Winter" has been postponed with the death of the Night King.


I don't think the coming and going of winter has anything to do with the Night King...I think the Night King was waiting for winter.

It just so happened that this was a very short and mild winter...he would have been disappointed if he managed to conquer the world and then immediately had to retreat back to the far north!


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

brianp6621 said:


> Maybe I misunderstood but to me "winter is coming" was always about the white walkers.


When the show began no one even believed in white walkers, but Winter is Coming were the words of house Stark.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> Maybe I misunderstood but to me "winter is coming" was always about the white walkers.


No. Nobody even believed the white walkers were real, but Ned went on and on about winter coming. Nobody had seen a white walker for thousands of years, but Ned had experienced a bad winter years ago


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Good interview with Emilia Clarke and others...
> 
> Emilia Clarke on the 'Game of Thrones' finale's shock twist: 'I stand by Daenerys'
> 
> ...


Actually I feel the tendency is the exact opposite with this type of show, to end it messy with key players (including "good guys") getting killed and it not being what the fans want. For GoT I thought it was tied up a bit too cleanly and had too good a feel, but I'm not unhappy by it. As I said in a previous thread, it is what it is, and who am I to tell the writers they are wrong? And for once they tied up most of the loose ends, which was good.


----------



## spartanstew (Feb 24, 2002)

Yawn.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> The progress will be slow and certainly there will be hiccups but this was a decided change in a new direction. That was the point.


That was the point they tried to make, yes.

But it was silly and unbelievable (to me).

Think of the conversations a month from now:

"So we were sitting there in the shade, it was cold. I was kinda hoping to see that dragon people have been talking about. They brought up some imp in chains who started out a prisoner and told not to talk by the scary spear-man. But then he talked anyway, and in three minutes time we all agreed to let this cripple I've never heard of before be king. Then the mean lady from the North went last and said, "cool that they all agree, we'll sit this one out." Next thing I know we're heading home and I don't feel so good about this."

Like a lot of things, with more time and more patience they could have told the story better. And yes, the rulers of the Kingdom know who Tyrion is. But he might have been their enemy in the past, or at least the hand of the woman who torched innocents. Whatever, for some reason they all totally trust him now, ok. Then he convinced them to vote yes in a few minutes and they didn't even take counsel before saying "yes". Even if they know Bran and his full history they'd still have reservation and those seemed to be absent.

And while Bran totally DGAF about anything, I kinda wanted him to say "Uh guys, Bran the Broken? Mind if we go with Bran the All-Seeing?"


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Family said:


> So Dany didn't go mad. This was a cold calculated move by someone who knew what she was doing. It wasn't an emotional decision to burn down the city that apologists were claiming last week.


During her grand speech, she described her actions as "liberating" the residents of King's Landing, whereas in fact she slaughtered them. This demonstrates not only a detachment with reality, but also an inability to tell right from wrong. She's textbook insane. It's not temporary insanity in the heat of battle either, the speech was well after the battle and after she must have seen the destruction of the ruined city.

IIRC Tyrion effectively made that same argument to Jon Snow, that Dany had killed so many "bad men" over her rise to power that she started to believe her actions were right, regardless of who she killed. I don't see how the producers could have depicted it much more clearly, even had they more episodes to do so.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Martin Tupper said:


> Kings Landing was under martial law at that moment. Grey Worm was, for all intents and purposes, the acting ruler of the city.


... and he's in full rage mode. Lost all the women he loved. Has absolutely nothing to live for.

He just had a pretty tense conflict with Jon in which they disagreed. He's not feeling warm and fuzzy for Jon.

And then he finds out without a doubt that Jon killed Dany. And he doesn't kill him (or try to)? Crazy stuff, bad writing.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

dwatt said:


> Who were all of the groups at the King's Moot?
> Left to right i saw
> Maesters: Sam
> ??: guy between them
> ...


Gendry was also there as the Lord of whatever the name of the Baratheon lands is...



Family said:


> You missed my point. Tyrion's monologue purpose was a weak attempt by the writers to sell us, the viewers, that Dany's transformation was logical and in character.
> 
> Which it wasn't.


I don't agree with your point. We all cringed as she executed people but excused it as "they were evil". There was a big deal made about executing the former slave that killed a master. She talked about destiny and how great she was way too many times. We cringed and we gave her the benefit of the doubt. They rushed her descent into madness, no argument there. But Tyrion laid a compelling argument.



etexlady said:


> Anyone else expect Brienne to enter in the record that Jamie had an heir born after his death?


Yes. yes. A thousand times yes!



DavidTigerFan said:


> The thing that got me was that if you take Tyrion's speech and then change Bran's name to almost any other, it still works. Sansa....great story, Jon...great story, Sam...great story. Hell even Arya could have fit in there. They didn't give any compelling reason for Bran to be king. Not only that, but with Bran's comment "Why do you think I came all this way", that means he knew he'd be chosen, but he could only be chosen if Jon killed Dany. Jon would only kill Dany because she burned kings landing. So therefore Bran knew that King's landing would burn and thousands would die. Stupid reasons to be king.


We laughed at the Iron Born, who elected whoever spoke next until they elected whoever spoke last. I guess all of Westeroesees are like that...whatever story Tyrion chose was the winning story!


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> ... and he's in full rage mode. Lost all the women he loved. Has absolutely nothing to live for.
> 
> He just had a pretty tense conflict with Jon in which they disagreed. He's not feeling warm and fuzzy for Jon.
> 
> And then he finds out without a doubt that Jon killed Dany. And he doesn't kill him (or try to)? Crazy stuff, bad writing.


Or a man who doesn't just burn down the house like his queen did. How odd that you defended Dany's insanity as sane and now sanity as being insane.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

smbaker said:


> During her grand speech, she described her actions as "liberating" the residents of King's Landing, whereas in fact she slaughtered them. This demonstrates not only a detachment with reality, but also an inability to tell right from wrong. She's textbook insane. It's not temporary insanity in the heat of battle either, the speech was well after the battle and after she must have seen the destruction of the ruined city.
> 
> IIRC Tyrion effectively made that same argument to Jon Snow, that Dany had killed so many "bad men" over her rise to power that she started to believe her actions were right, regardless of who she killed. I don't see how the producers could have depicted it much more clearly, even had they more episodes to do so.


The ones she didn't burn to a crisp were actually liberated.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

TonyD79 said:


> Why would Drogon kill him? It's a freaking dragon not a detective. He saw Jon there but Jon was a friend. He wouldn't think Jon killed her.
> 
> The only time greyworm acted without orders was when he restarted the battle last week. And that may have been on orders.


Like I said, I can kinda see both of these, but I'm still not fully convinced.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> And then he finds out without a doubt that Jon killed Dany. And he doesn't kill him (or try to)? Crazy stuff, bad writing.


I tend to side with you that he would have acted impulsively, and it seemed incredulous that Jon Snow was not killed immediately. I don't buy the "_Grey Worm can't do anything without someone giving him an order_" excuse. I do feel this would have led to almost certain doom for Grey Worm and perhaps even all of his people. The Lords/Ladies of Westeros would have turned on him immediately. Perhaps he could have boarded the ships and fled quickly enough. Even had he escaped, he would have found himself having an unpleasant Arya moment in his future.

Killing off Jon Snow, fleeing on the ships, then having Arya catch up with him would have been more befitting of the series than the ending we did receive.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Or a man who doesn't just burn down the house like his queen did. How odd that you defended Dany's insanity as sane and now sanity as being insane.


Not really sure what you're saying.

We know Grey Worm kills the enemies of Dany. But hey, whoever kills her must be a nice guy so we won't kill him.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

What I didn't like is Brienne leaving Sansa. THAT was fan service. She had sworn her allegiance to Sansa. No way she would break that promise. If Sansa relieved her of it, her character owed us a scene where this was done.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

smbaker said:


> I tend to side with you that he would have acted impulsively, and it seemed incredulous that Jon Snow was not killed immediately. I don't buy the "_Grey Worm can't do anything without someone giving him an order_" excuse. I do feel this would have led to almost certain doom for Grey Worm and perhaps even all of his people. The Lords/Ladies of Westeros would have turned on him immediately. Perhaps he could have boarded the ships and fled quickly enough. Even had he escaped, he would have found himself having an unpleasant Arya moment in his future.
> 
> Killing off Jon Snow, fleeing on the ships, then having Arya catch up with him would have been more befitting of the series than the ending we did receive.


Totally agree. If Grey Worm had killed Jon he's also get killed/hunted down/etc.

But I don't think he'd care. He has zero to live for. He would have felt complete if he could take down Dany's killer. That would be a huge motivation for him. To just let that go is out of character.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

uncdrew said:


> The ones she didn't burn to a crisp were actually liberated.


You really drank the Dany koolaid didn't you. You'd be a great minion.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Jon’s survival really was ludicrous. You have thousands of warriors all hoorah about their awesome queen. You have her assigned Master of War. And then she’s killed, and it’s no secret who killed her. Both the Unsullied and the Dothraki would have gone nuts.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> What I didn't like is Brienne leaving Sansa. THAT was fan service. She had sworn her allegiance to Sansa. No way she would break that promise. If Sansa relieved her of it, her character owed us a scene where this was done.


Good catch.

We'll find a ton more like this the more we discuss.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I never paid attention to Kit Harrington's (lack of) height but Greyworm was significantly taller. How short must Emilia Clarke be?


According to Google, she is 5'2". Pretty short!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> You really drank the Dany koolaid didn't you. You'd be a great minion.


Just an independent thinker, that's all. And what I said is 100% true. The survivors have been liberated. Do you disagree?

Not just being spoon fed what the writers are trying to make us believe. If they tell the story well, I'm all in. When they skip steps, get lazy, I'll call them on it.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Anubys said:


> What I didn't like is Brienne leaving Sansa. THAT was fan service. She had sworn her allegiance to Sansa. No way she would break that promise. If Sansa relieved her of it, her character owed us a scene where this was done.


Other than when she voted for Bran over Sansa?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Jon's survival really was ludicrous. You have thousands of warriors all hoorah about their awesome queen. You have her assigned Master of War. And then she's killed, and it's no secret who killed her. Both the Unsullied and the Dothraki would have gone nuts.


Yep, really crazy.

And who was guarding the cell Jon was imprisoned in? Who had the key? The Unsullied, right? Didn't they let Jon in to see Tyrion?


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

smbaker said:


> During her grand speech, she described her actions as "liberating" the residents of King's Landing, whereas in fact she slaughtered them. This demonstrates not only a detachment with reality, but also an inability to tell right from wrong. She's textbook insane. It's not temporary insanity in the heat of battle either, the speech was well after the battle and after she must have seen the destruction of the ruined city.


Yes she is textbook insane. My complaint is that there was little, if any evidence, of this level of insanity before this season.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Family said:


> Yes she is textbook insane. My complaint is that there was little, if any evidence, of this level of insanity before this season.


I know this is a fantasy world and that these people may not even be actual "humans", but in real human world, it's not unheard of for severe mental illnesses to manifest in the person's early 20s. How old was Dany?


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Didn't they let Jon in to see Tyrion?


They sure don't seem like the brightest guys. They're also the ones who let Tyrion in to see Jaime and allowed Jaime to escape.



Family said:


> My complaint is that there was little, if any evidence, of this level of insanity before this season.


I thought there were a lot of little signs. Other folks in the previous thread did a good job of stitching them together. She had often talked about slaughtering people (usually someone suitably bad, like "The Masters") and attacking cities, but was talked down by her advisers. I think the death of Jorah, in particular, cost her one of those very needed advisers. The only adviser left was Tyrion, and I don't she really listened to him. So we saw her fully unchecked at the end.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

When a Khal (or Khaleesi) is killed I think the only thing going through a Dothraki mind is who will be next, and can I take him?


----------



## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

I think it was more of a doomsday cult type of liberation.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> What I didn't like is Brienne leaving Sansa. THAT was fan service. She had sworn her allegiance to Sansa. No way she would break that promise. If Sansa relieved her of it, her character owed us a scene where this was done.


I said the same thing last night. Brienne would never have left Sansa's service, especially knowing that she would be named Queen of the North. It would have been better to see her as the head of the Queensguard for Sansa than head fo the Kingsguard for Bran. (But, I guess that would be the only way for her to write in the Kingsguard history book.)


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Nope, not his friend. Hasn't been for a while. Agreeing to do something under duress is hardly a debt. If they wanted it to be a Lannister debt they could have written the scene where they agreed to it better. Regardless, he has no place being anywhere near a leadership role. They've already corrupted the council that was supposed to be a new way forward.


But, but, but a Lannister always pays his debts!


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> Other than when she voted for Bran over Sansa?


She didn't vote for Bran over Sansa, just for Bran as King. It wasn't until the end that Sansa requested/demanded that the North be independent.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

uncdrew said:


> Just an independent thinker, that's all. And what I said is 100% true. The survivors have been liberated. Do you disagree?
> 
> Not just being spoon fed what the writers are trying to make us believe. If they tell the story well, I'm all in. When they skip steps, get lazy, I'll call them on it.


Yes I disagree. The survivors of an aftermath like that haven't been liberated. They were spared from slaughter. There is a very distinct difference both in their and other's perception and therefore behavior towards the event.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

vertigo235 said:


> But, but, but a Lannister always pays his debts!


Not to prolong the argument longer but (Ned Stark always said everything before the "but" is...oh well) Bronn himself made the argument for why he deserves a big house. All the houses were founded by a mean SOB who was better at killing people and ruthless enough that it was better to be his ally than his enemy. The more you kill, the more you get.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> She didn't vote for Bran over Sansa, just for Bran as King. It wasn't until the end that Sansa requested/demanded that the North be independent.


Huh? She voted before Sansa and voted to make Bran the ruler of all seven kingdoms, thereby voting to oust Sansa as ruler since, as you noted, it was before Sansa had demanded that the North be independent.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

'Game of Thrones': Why Bran's Destiny Works-and Why It Doesn't

Just How Much of the 'Game of Thrones' Ending Was George R.R. Martin's?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MikeekiM said:


> ...I am still "coming down" from my disappointment with this finale episode...
> 
> I mean really...NONE of the power players are sitting on the iron throne at the end of this epic series? Not Dany, not Jon, not Cercie? What happened to the riveting "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die"?
> 
> ...


I'd like to see that, it would make the NBA not a foregone conclusion every season. But I digress....


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

ct1 said:


> I think the attendees were chosen by their show prominence rather than actual Kingdom/great houses.


Which explains why they included two characters who we'd never seen before.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

So where does this ending leave us in terms of the Vegas betting? It was my understanding that the bet was specifically about who would be sitting on the iron throne at the end of the series. Bran became ruler of Westeros, but he never technically sat on the iron throne. Neither did Dany, since Jon killed her before she got the chance. Does this mean that all bets are off and the wagers will all be returned?


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

MacThor said:


> Which explains why they included two characters who we'd never seen before.


Guy from Dorne and... ?


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

This has been a great 12 years of TV and I'm going to miss it. I'll reserve my final judgment on the last couple seasons for when I've had a chance to read the last two books, understanding that I may never be able to read them. 

However, I think they did the best they could in the finale considering the corners they painted themselves into. I fully expected Jon Snow to kill Dany and didn't see how it could've gone any other way. Bran as king? That sort of came out of left field and I can't wait to see how GRRM gets us to that point in the books (if he does). 

Was very disappointing to me though when the character who had some of the greatest lines in the show, Tormund Giantsbane, doesn't say one word at the end. I would've expected him to at least ask if Brienne would eventually be coming north too. Or at least say to Jon, "Let's go home, brother." as they start their trek north and Jon becomes the new Mance Rayder. Maybe he'll find a new Ygritte and live a happy life.

Overall it was an epic series and I'll rewatch again and again over the years. But what could've been......


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

TampaThunder said:


> Was very disappointing to me though when the character who had some of the greatest lines in the show, Tormund Giantsbane, doesn't say one word at the end. I would've expected him to at least ask if Brienne would eventually be coming north too. Or at least say to Jon, "Let's go home, brother." as they start their trek north and Jon becomes the new Mance Rayder. Maybe he'll find a new Ygritte and live a happy life.


I agree and I honestly feel we should have gotten at the very minimum a "welcome home" when the gates opened and we see Tormund at Castle Black.


----------



## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I agree and I honestly feel we should have gotten at the very minimum a "welcome home" when the gates opened and we see Tormund at Castle Black.


I dunno. I think it was more powerful without dialog.

The free folk were there to retrieve one of their own. Jon belonged with them and everyone knew it.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

gweempose said:


> So where does this ending leave us in terms of the Vegas betting? It was my understanding that the bet was specifically about who would be sitting on the iron throne at the end of the series. Bran became ruler of Westeros, but he never technically sat on the iron throne. Neither did Dany, since Jon killed her before she got the chance. Does this mean that all bets are off and the wagers will all be returned?


Bran Stark Skyrockets in Game of Thrones Las Vegas Betting Odds for the Throne | TV Guide


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Guy from Dorne and... ?


I didn't recognize the guy sitting between Sam and Edmure...did you?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I don't believe that Dany destroyed Kings Landing because she suddenly became the Mad Queen, as in insane. I think she became the mad Queen, as in pissed off. Angry that Jon broke his promise to her. Angry that Cercei wouldn't concede. Angry that Jon's secret parentage would prevent her from gaining the Iron Throne. I believe that Jon would have eventually been able to temper her worst instincts but he got stabby first.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

MacThor said:


> I didn't recognize the guy sitting between Sam and Edmure...did you?


Or the guy sitting to Gendry's right? Listed on the Wiki as Lord Une but I can't recall him. I also didn't recognize the one next to Yara on her right or the old man on the very end next to Royce.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

The Unsullied were the only reason Jon Snow had to go to the Wall.

The Unsullied sailed away forever. Why is Jon Snow still at the Wall for one extra moment?
Why didn't his sister Sansa, you know, the Queen in the North, where the Wall is, pardon him immediately?

Also, why is ANYBODY at the Wall?


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't believe that Dany destroyed Kings Landing because she suddenly became the Mad Queen, as in insane. I think she became the mad Queen, as in pissed off. Angry that Jon broke his promise to her. Angry that Cercei wouldn't concede. Angry that Jon's secret parentage would prevent her from gaining the Iron Throne. I believe that Jon would have eventually been able to temper her worst instincts but he got stabby first.


If you get pissed off and yell at one of your friends, an apology and some future discipline may do.

If you get pissed off and slaughter a city full of innocent men, women, and children, who had just surrendered to you... You really don't come back from that.



Marco said:


> Why didn't his sister Sansa, you know, the Queen in the North, where the Wall is, pardon him immediately?


Perhaps the plan was to quietly pardon him after he arrived there. Maybe they didn't know he'd desert and head north of the wall... or maybe they did, and that was the plan after all.

We ended up with three Stark Kings: King of the Realm, Queen of the North, and King Beyond the Wall. Now give us an Arya spinoff, and a fourth Stark as Queen of the Land to the West.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Marco said:


> Also, why is ANYBODY at the Wall?


Someone has to fill that gaping, dragon-sized hole in the wall...to keep out (not sure who that might be).


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

MacThor said:


> I didn't recognize the guy sitting between Sam and Edmure...did you?


I didn't recognize several. The Dorne Guy was the only one I knew I wasn't supposed to recognize. Figured I just forgot the others.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> This ep highlighted another nitpick from last week: When looking for his siblings, Tyrion confronted a pile of ruble with a crack of light at the top and just started climbing. When J & C ran into the same thing while trying to survive, it didn't occur to them to try climbing the pile.


The pile of rubble Tyrion climbed up was one of the piles created by the cave in that killed Jaime and Cersei. It wasn't there when J&C were trying to escape. The pile of rubble blocking the exit down to the beach was much larger and didn't have any light coming through at the top.



LlamaLarry said:


> Come on, man, not one but two water bottles visible in the episode? : Plastic water bottle visible during finale of Game of Thrones - CNN





> More than a million people have signed a petition urging showrunners to "remake 'Game of Thrones' Season 8 with competent writers."


Whoever wrote that line is an idiot. The showrunners ARE the writers. They're going to replace themselves?



Marco said:


> The Unsullied were the only reason Jon Snow had to go to the Wall.
> 
> The Unsullied sailed away forever. Why is Jon Snow still at the Wall for one extra moment?
> Why didn't his sister Sansa, you know, the Queen in the North, where the Wall is, pardon him immediately?


Because being "banished" to the Wall was not really a punishment for John, it was exactly what he would have chosen for himself if he could. So there was no need to "pardon" him or allow him to return. He's exactly where he wants to be and where he feels most at home.


Marco said:


> Also, why is ANYBODY at the Wall?


This I agree with.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

The people who picked Bran as their king

Who were the people at Game of Thrones' pivotal finale meeting?


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Bran Stark Skyrockets in Game of Thrones Las Vegas Betting Odds for the Throne | TV Guide


So after doing a little more reading, it appears that the bet was for who end up ruling Westeros, not necessarily who would end up sitting on the iron throne. I was hoping all of the bets would be void because of a technicality.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> The people who picked Bran as their king
> 
> Who were the people at Game of Thrones' pivotal finale meeting?


Why were the Starks able to have three representatives voting for the new king when all the other houses only had one?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> The showrunners ARE the writers.


I'm pretty sure that isn't true.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Because being "banished" to the Wall was not really a punishment for John, it was exactly what he would have chosen for himself if he could. So there was no need to "pardon" him or allow him to return. He's exactly where he wants to be and where he feels most at home.


Retconning.

He did not look pleased to be banished to the Wall when he was walking, under guard, on the docks. Nor when he was saying farewell to Sansa and Arya.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't believe that Dany destroyed Kings Landing because she suddenly became the Mad Queen, as in insane. I think she became the mad Queen, as in pissed off. Angry that Jon broke his promise to her. Angry that Cercei wouldn't concede. Angry that Jon's secret parentage would prevent her from gaining the Iron Throne. I believe that Jon would have eventually been able to temper her worst instincts but he got stabby first.


It was both. She was angry/hurt and that drove her finally and fully into the mad/insane territory. Someone else already said it. Her completely delusional speech to her people after the "victory" shows she had gone insane with power.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> . The pile of rubble blocking the exit down to the beach was much larger and didn't have any light coming through at the top


There was. I remember thinking why didn't they at least try to crawl through, dig at the top.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Marco said:


> Also, why is ANYBODY at the Wall?





markp99 said:


> Someone has to fill that gaping, dragon-sized hole in the wall...to keep out (not sure who that might be).





DevdogAZ said:


> This I agree with.


They at least had a line to try and explain this that there would always be a need for a place for outcasts and criminals or something like that. Basically that's their prison to banish people to, to now do only busy work.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

MikeekiM said:


> What happened to the riveting "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die"?


Did not everyone who vied for the Iron Throne die?



smak said:


> The only two people that were playing the game of thrones are dead.
> 
> In fact, isn't everybody in the series who wanted the throne dead?
> 
> -smak-


Yes, ^this.^


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> I'm pretty sure that isn't true.


As is often the case on TV shows, these showrunners wrote the key episodes (including this one, which they also directed).


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> But we've been over this.


Chuckle. My apologies for not having reviewed all past GoT threads.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gweempose said:


> Why were the Starks able to have three representatives voting for the new king when all the other houses only had one?


There happened to be three Starks there, but I think only Sansa was actually representing their house. Arya was just there because she was already in KL, and Bran was there because he's the 3ER.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> There was. I remember thinking why didn't they at least try to crawl through, dig at the top.


Yes, I remember thinking the same thing. There was light shining through the top of the rubble and wondering why they didn't try to dig out.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

krkaufman said:


> Chuckle. My apologies for not having reviewed all past GoT threads.


Sorry. It's just something that keeps coming up. As much as we never understood about Targeryans and fire, we know Jon wasn't invited to it.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I'm pretty sure that isn't true.


It's very much the case. David Benioff and Dan Weiss have been the showrunners since the beginning, and they also co-wrote the vast majority of the episodes. They get credited with writing all 73 episodes because they're considered the "creators" but the other credited writers only wrote a handful of episodes.

Edit: According to IMDb, Benioff and Weiss are credited with actually writing 50 of the 73 episodes.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> I liked how Jon killed Dany. Very private and while in basically telling her he still loved her. For a moment, I wasn't even 100% sure who stabbed whom.


Ditto. I even thought Jon might have gutted himself.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Just an independent thinker, that's all. And what I said is 100% true. The survivors have been liberated. Do you disagree?


Disagree. She has shown if they disagree with her, she burns them. They are not liberated. They just had a new capricious master.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> Ditto. I even thought Jon might have gutted himself.


That would have been in character for typical Jon Snow behavior. 

I remember speculating in that last episode that killing one Jon Snow to ensure there were no challengers to Dany's rule would have been better than killing thousands of King's Landing civilians, and that Jon Snow would have happily volunteered.


----------



## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

I don't watch this show, but just wanted to share - if you haven't seen the finale yet, don't watch 'The View'. I'm pretty sure that most here don't watch that show, but Meghan McCain actually spewed out spoilers from the finale before they shut her up. Just an FYI, FWIW


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Marco said:


> Retconning.
> 
> He did not look pleased to be banished to the Wall when he was walking, under guard, on the docks. Nor when he was saying farewell to Sansa and Arya.


Since when has John Snow ever looked pleased about anything?


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

TriBruin said:


> I said the same thing last night. Brienne would never have left Sansa's service, especially knowing that she would be named Queen of the North. It would have been better to see her as the head of the Queensguard for Sansa than head fo the Kingsguard for Bran. (But, I guess that would be the only way for her to write in the Kingsguard history book.)


I suspect the in-story reason for Brienne to join Bran's Kingsguard rather than stay in the North with Sansa is because she isn't a Northerner.

For Sansa, trying to re-establish the North as a strong independent nation, it would be politically beneficial to not have a Southerner as her bodyguard. If Sansa does have a Queensguard, it would make sense for it to be made up of members of the other strong Northern houses.

Keep in mind that the Kingsguard isn't just there to provide protection to the royal family from outside threats, but it can also be used to ensure the lords remain loyal to the king/queen by having their sons serving in the Guard. One of the reasons Tywin didn't get involved in Robert's Rebellion until the end was because Jaime was in the Kingsguard and was essentially being held hostage by the Mad King.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Didn’t the last 3ER live for thousands of years? Bran could be around a long time!


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

First off, I was satisfied with the ending. It might have worked better though as a 2 hour finale because last week we epic (in terms of action) and this week was more drama. They would have worked well together because when it was over my wife said, "Well that was uneventful"...lol. I do think some folks think WAYYYY too hard about this and maybe that's the way some enjoy an epic show like this but when I can I prefer not to nitpick it to death like these thread seem to. I'm glad I only recently started reading them.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Dany may be fireproof, but her ability to shrug off a stab to the heart really pales in comparison to Jaime.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

sharkster said:


> I don't watch this show, but just wanted to share - if you haven't seen the finale yet, don't watch 'The View'. I'm pretty sure that most here don't watch that show, but Meghan McCain actually spewed out spoilers from the finale before they shut her up. Just an FYI, FWIW


Also, if you haven't seen the finale yet, don't read this thread. Oh yeah, and thanks for spoiling The View


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

mitkraft said:


> I do think some folks think WAYYYY too hard about this and maybe that's the way some enjoy an epic show like this but when I can I prefer not to nitpick it to death like these thread seem to. I'm glad I only recently started reading them.


Reading the complaints and nitpicking is half the fun. Maybe not quite half, but there is fun.

Oh, and the end of the world happened again. There's a water bottle partially obscured by a cast member's leg in one of the scenes. Ruined the whole damn series for some folks, according to the 'net.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

gweempose said:


> Why were the Starks able to have three representatives voting for the new king when all the other houses only had one?


Arya didn't really vote. I guess Bran didn't either. Only Sansa?


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

I don't think Sansa actually voted. I think she just declared the north as independent. Now I have to rewatch that.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Since when has John Snow ever looked pleased about anything?


If you google "Jon Snow smiling" there are lots of images of it.


----------



## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

sharkster said:


> I don't watch this show, but just wanted to share - if you haven't seen the finale yet, don't watch 'The View'. I'm pretty sure that most here don't watch that show, but Meghan McCain actually spewed out spoilers from the finale before they shut her up. Just an FYI, FWIW


I knew this would happen and it was the reason I binge-watched the last season yesterday. People need to be more careful.

(I never watched more than one episode of Lost and since the finale was spoiled, I never will.)


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Beryl said:


> I knew this would happen and it was the reason I binge-watched the last season yesterday. People need to be more careful.
> 
> (I never watched more than one episode of Lost and since the finale was spoiled, I never will.)


Hard to believe it wasn't spoiled for you before that. Most episodes this year were all over the media and certainly all over social media.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I don't watch the View, but I knew this thread would be in my face today, so I made sure to watch the show yesterday evening, even though I got a late start and was later than normal getting to bed.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I think a lot of people have GoT's 'hangovers' today.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I think a lot of people have GoT's 'hangovers' today.


Some who imbibed to ease the pain might also have real hangovers.


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Reading the complaints and nitpicking is half the fun. Maybe not quite half, but there is fun.


I think that could be true for some but for me it would only be fun on a much less serious show. Nitpicking a stupid show like Vegas for example is fun and can add to the camp. Trying to nitpick character nuances and "should have dones" in a fantasy more serious setting like GOT or Star Wars detracts. Especially for the people who are clearly for real angry about it. I just enjoyed the ride mostly.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I
> 
> My favorite 3 posts on Reddit last night were a reply chain:
> 1) Drogon thinking "all this for a chair"
> ...


Drogon thinking as he picks up Dany and flies away "it's a long way back to Essos and I'm gonna need an in-flight snack ..."


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

smbaker said:


> Reading the complaints and nitpicking is half the fun. Maybe not quite half, but there is fun.


This is most of what we do here, right?

If all we did was come here to report that we watched and was satisfied with the ending and had no comments, how interesting would that be!!!


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Or the guy sitting to Gendry's right? Listed on the Wiki as Lord Une but I can't recall him. I also didn't recognize the one next to Yara on her right or the old man on the very end next to Royce.


I think the kid sitting next to Royce was Robyn Arryn.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

mitkraft said:


> I think that could be true for some but for me it would only be fun on a much less serious show. Nitpicking a stupid show like Vegas for example is fun and can add to the camp. Trying to nitpick character nuances and "should have dones" in a fantasy more serious setting like GOT or Star Wars detracts. Especially for the people who are clearly for real angry about it. I just enjoyed the ride mostly.


And how do you shut your brain off after the ride until the next episode? Regardless, the best shows in history encouraged deep thought and analysis and actually held up under scrutiny. Early seasons of GoT for the most part included.

Star Wars was almost never intelligent. D&D will do fine even if they do dumb stuff.

Example:


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Shakhari said:


> I think the kid sitting next to Royce was Robyn Arryn.


Other side of Royce 


Spoiler


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Other side of Royce
> 
> 
> Spoiler


That's the one thing I liked about Euron Grejoy...he always wore his belt so an extra long part would dangle between his legs; as if he had a 2-foot penis! the guy in that picture pales in comparison


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I have to say I missed having a behind the episode after this one ended.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> I have to say I missed having a behind the episode after this one ended.


They were probably saving it for the two-hour special that's airing next Sunday...


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> They were probably saving it for the two-hour special that's airing next Sunday...


Good point.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> I have to say I missed having a behind the episode after this one ended.


Interestingly, not only is there no Inside the Episode, there doesn't seem to be a Game Revealed webisode, either. And the official viewer's guide (Game of Thrones Viewer's Guide) hasn't been updated with the finale, either.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

So, when is "His Dark Materials" or whatever they end up naming it going to premier? Need something to fill Sunday nights (and also wash the bad taste of The Golden Compass out of my head).


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Other side of Royce
> 
> 
> Spoiler


He is Lord of Hydration. He is looking down at the floor thinking "I can't _believe_ I didn't collect all the water bottles."


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> They were probably saving it for the two-hour special that's airing next Sunday...


This was the only thing that made me hesitate in cancelling my HBO subscription. It renews in two days so I went ahead and turned off autorenew. I guess y'all can let me know if this special is worth $15 to watch.


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

I guess I'm in the minority, because I liked it. I just don't think it approaches the terribleness that was the Dexter series Finale. Taking a look at IMDB, the GoT Finale is rated as bad as the Dexter finale. Comon.... A few observations, I read all the replies in here and some of this have already been said, oh well. lol.

*Ser Brienne:* I feel like once the threat to the realms of men and to the Starks were over, she had fulfilled her oath to Sansa and Arya, who are now, both adults. Arya is a skilled assassin, Sansa Queen of the North. They don't need Brienne's protection anymore and besides, she can't protect them both at the same time. She is originally from the south, so it makes sense that she could become part of the kingsguard. Not to mention the new King is a Stark, so maybe on the other hand, she can continue to fulfil her oath? When Cersei became Queen didn't she choose her Queensguard as well? (Though eventually all she needed was The Mountain). So I had no issue with this, though I'm not sure she really had a vote as the Island of Tarth was part of the Stormlands and thus serving Gendry as the new Lord of the Stormlands. Also, Sansa and Arya know Brienne, I have no doubt they told her stay to serve Bran.

*Drogon not killing Jon:* Drogon didn't see John kill Dany, Jon has Targaryen blood and Drogon figured he was a friend. I laughed when Drogon destroyed the throne, kinda felt like Drogon was saying, enough of this throne business, Mom was gonna break the wheel, so I melted the throne, good luck silly humans, I'm done with this stupidity <mic drop>. It was sad seeing Drogon nudge Dany, no different than a loyal dog, sad when their human dies.

*Bronn:* A Lannister always pays his debts. Tyrion kept his word, throughout this whole story he has Kept his word. High Garden provides a lot of the food for the 7 Kingdoms, it makes sense to let him be master of coin. (at least of any of the characters that are left). Also as secondary, the round table at the end I didn't have a problem with. Bronn and Tyrion together were always knuckleheads. I also saw it as a way to lighten the mood. Politics are just so serious sometimes.

*Grey Worm not killing Jon:* I agree with others that he's used to taking orders. He broke from that when he decided to kill the surrendering Lannister forces in s08E5, however, once his Queen and Drogon were gone, I don't think there was much keeping the Unsullied and Dothraki together. Dany was that glue. Had he killed Jon it would just continue the war and bloodshed. You know the Northman and Sansa would not have stood idle. Also, I think Grey Worm, as we saw at the end, wanted to honor his promise with Missandei by going to Naath. I think he was tired of the bloodshed and had he killed Jon there was no chance of that happening. With Dany now gone, he could do that. Had Dany lived, he be spending the rest of his life "liberating" the rest of Westeros and the Seven Kingdoms. Who knows if he would survive.

*Jon going back to Night's Watch:* I think everyone involved (except Grey Worm) knew that Jon wasn't going to stay at the Wall. I think Grey worm accepted this because of what I mentioned above. We got our much deserved reunion with Ghost, making up for the departure after the Battle of Winterfell. Jon gets to go back to North of the wall where I think he truly wanted to be. I actually compare this to Grey Worm going to Naath, though he hadn't been there before, it's where Missandei was from. Jon met his first true love North of the Wall (Ygritte) and he was returning there. It's the only place he truly felt where he belonged. As he continually said, he never wanted the throne and I think north of the wall is the only place where he wouldn't be constantly reminded that he was the last true heir to the throne and/or treated as such. The Wildings don't care about that and neither did Jon.

*Happy Ending:* I keep hearing everyone say this was your typical Hollywood happy ending. I don't see it as that at all. Jon had to kill his Aunt, his second love, until he found out Dany was his Aunt. To save the realm of men. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider having to kill a family member a Happy Ending. Drogon lost his mom, not happy. The only living Starks, who were separated for much of this series, end the series separated again. Yes, they may be alive, but they are unlikely to see each other ever again. Sansa, Queen in the North, Bran the Broken, King of the 6 Kingdoms. Arya, going on a walk-about (or sail-about) and Jon back North of the Wall. I don't see where not being able to be with family you love as a Happy Ending.

Finally, this series started with the Starks and it ended with the Starks and I'm not sure it could have ended any other way.

I do hope that GRRM finishes the books because I still want to read them despite the tv series being over.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

I'm looking forward to the BTS special because I'm a nerd for how movies and shows get made... I have to say, for all the complaints about the story (and by god there are many), the set design, cinematography, and scope of these episodes was pretty nuts.... It's a shame is being so poorly received because just looking at what went into making these six episodes, I actually feel bad for everyone involved because no one wants to kill themselves for an entire year only to have their work utter eviscerated lol... though such is the risk I guess. I get why the cast and crew are getting defensive though.

For me personally, I haven't invested 8 years into the characters, but I can totally see a lot of the complaints. It's one thing to "disagree" with the choices made - that's the fun of a good TV debate... but even to me, the story choices made almost no sense. Like I get why Jon killed Dany...but I don't get why he lived afterwards. It made no sense that the dragon didn't kill him, and less sense that her 15 million man army of blood loyal soldiers didn't kill him. Everything on the show set up that the dragons, and her followers, would defend her til the end. They some guy offs her 10 minutes into her reign, and they take him prisoner? It's clear the show lost it's balls and wanted to give viewers a "happy" ending for Jon, instead of keeping with the brutality they've previously exhibited, which would have been more true to life. To me, him walking away from King's Landing made less sense than just about anything else.

I did like the ending for Arya - I wanted her to survive because she's an epic bad ass and I feel safer knowing she's out there. I think it was fitting to have her sail off to a completely uncharted world.

I also didn't like Cersei's death. Even as a casual viewer of the early seasons, I knew that she was the main villain of the show, and that she pissed off pretty much every single character over the last seven years. To have her die off practically on her own, without any kind of epic confrontation with ANY of the people she wronged, seemed like a huge waste to me. For me, part of having such a good villain is the satisfaction you get when they finally get what's coming to them... I feel like the show denied us what could have been a bad ass death.

oh...and [email protected] the water bottle... These poor producers. They spent like an entire year writing, planning, filming, and editing the episode and all anyone comes away with are complaints and that damn water bottle.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

One more thing, I was disappointed we didn't have Kings Landing burning in the opening sequence.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

DUSlider said:


> I guess I'm in the minority, because I liked it. I just don't think it approaches the terribleness that was the Dexter series Finale.


10000% agree with you. I'm hard pressed to think of a worse finale than Dexter.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

DUSlider said:


> I guess I'm in the minority, because I liked it. I just don't think it approaches the terribleness that was the Dexter series Finale. Taking a look at IMDB, the GoT Finale is rated as bad as the Dexter finale. Comon.... A few observations, I read all the replies in here and some of this have already been said, oh well. lol.
> 
> *Ser Brienne:* I feel like once the threat to the realms of men and to the Starks were over, she had fulfilled her oath to Sansa and Arya, who are now, both adults. Arya is a skilled assassin, Sansa Queen of the North. They don't need Brienne's protection anymore and besides, she can't protect them both at the same time. She is originally from the south, so it makes sense that she could become part of the kingsguard. Not to mention the new King is a Stark, so maybe on the other hand, she can continue to fulfil her oath? When Cersei became Queen didn't she choose her Queensguard as well? (Though eventually all she needed was The Mountain). So I had no issue with this, though I'm not sure she really had a vote as the Island of Tarth was part of the Stormlands and thus serving Gendry as the new Lord of the Stormlands. Also, Sansa and Arya know Brienne, I have no doubt they told her stay to serve Bran.
> 
> ...


I don't care what people think. This finale is NOWHERE near the Dexter finale. That was a crime against humanity.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Well, now I'm really curious about Dexter (never watched it).


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

brianp6621 said:


> I don't care what people think. This finale is NOWHERE near the Dexter finale. That was a crime against humanity.


I'm gonna go out and say Dexter was the worst followed by SOA. Both far far worse than this.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> One more thing, I was disappointed we didn't have Kings Landing burning in the opening sequence.


It wasn't burning, but it was mostly destroyed. They had been changing the opening title every week slightly, from showing the dead "marching" to having the funeral piles outside Winterfell.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I'm gonna go out and say Dexter was the worst followed by SOA. Both far far worse than this.


Of course _Dexter_'s ending was balanced by the finale (imdb rating 9.8/10) of Michael C. Hall's other show _Six Feet Under_. (Available on HBO for anyone that missed it...)


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

photoshopgrl said:


> I'm gonna go out and say Dexter was the worst followed by SOA. Both far far worse than this.


I don't think SOAs was bad. I don't remember loving it but don't remember being disappointed


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

brianp6621 said:


> I don't think SOAs was bad. I don't remember loving it but don't remember being disappointed


Really? Maybe I'm in the minority then. I didn't follow the threads here because I was always so far behind watching it but wow that ending really pissed me off.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I too hated the SoA finale. That show really went off the deep end. Dexter was bad but not SoA bad...LOL!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

morac said:


> It wasn't burning, but it was mostly destroyed. They had been changing the opening title every week slightly, from showing the dead "marching" to having the funeral piles outside Winterfell.


But season 3 opened with it Winterfell smoking so I assumed we'd get the same from KL.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Bran asking about a Master of Whispers and Master of War ...

Uh, you sent your best candidate Master of War across the Wall and your best candidate Master of Whispers left to sail off the edge of the world.

Speaking of the Wall, why did Jon and the Free Folk have to use the gate? There's a Viserion sized hole in it now they could have used.
Also I think that scene would have worked better if Jon had been wearing Free Folk gray instead of Night Watch black.


----------



## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

Now you guys have me curious on both the SoA and the Dexter finales! LOL...

I guess I am a gluten for punishment!


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

MikeekiM said:


> Now you guys have me curious on both the SoA and the Dexter finales! LOL...
> 
> I guess I am a gluten for punishment!


Luckily there's a lot of gluten free options these days!


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> One more thing, I was disappointed we didn't have Kings Landing burning in the opening sequence.


I specifically watched for that and was surprised they didn't show it burning like they did Winterfell.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

What the heck is SOA?


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Really? Maybe I'm in the minority then. I didn't follow the threads here because I was always so far behind watching it but wow that ending really pissed me off.


I HATED how SOA ended. Hated it!


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> What the heck is SOA?


Sons of Anarchy


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Maybe we need a separate thread to discuss other shows' finales!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> Bran asking about a Master of Whispers and Master of War ...
> 
> Uh, you sent your best candidate Master of War across the Wall...


...uh, who?

Tormund?

Ghost?

Because you're OBVIOUSLY not talking about Jon "I never met a battle plan I couldn't screw up" Snow!


----------



## spartanstew (Feb 24, 2002)

wprager said:


> Well, now I'm really curious about Dexter (never watched it).


I watched it, but don't even remember the finale.

I'm pretty sure in 5 years or so, I won't remember this one either.


----------



## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

Shakhari said:


> Speaking of the Wall, why did Jon and the Free Folk have to use the gate? There's a Viserion sized hole in it now they could have used.


Didn't they go through at Castle Black and not Eastwatch by the sea? I think the port at Eastwatch was also destroyed.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Yes, the wall was destroyed near Eastwatch. Tormund had taken the Free Folk to Castle Black after the Battle of Winterfell.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

It was odd for Dany to have Tyrion taken away after he admitted to treason.

She usually moves straight to the sentencing phase.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

MacThor said:


> It was odd for Dany to have Tyrion taken away after he admitted to treason.
> 
> She usually moves straight to the sentencing phase.


I was honestly surprised to see him taken to a cell and not immediately burnt to a crisp. Was the dragon away eating more sheep?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> Well, now I'm really curious about Dexter (never watched it).


Dexter is an excellent show up through Season 4. Then it started to go downhill and the last season was a travesty, with the finale being one of the worst of all time. I would recommend watching and just treating the S4 finale as the series finale.


Shakhari said:


> Speaking of the Wall, why did Jon and the Free Folk have to use the gate? There's a Viserion sized hole in it now they could have used.
> Also I think that scene would have worked better if Jon had been wearing Free Folk gray instead of Night Watch black.


Because the Kingsroad goes to Castle Black. Going to Eastwatch would add hundreds of miles to their journey.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

MacThor said:


> It was odd for Dany to have Tyrion taken away after he admitted to treason.
> 
> She usually moves straight to the sentencing phase.


It was a little odd but showed there was still some humanity in her. He was one of her closest advisors and allies for a long time.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

krkaufman said:


> Of course he did. Jon Snow SOP.


"Did you kill Queen Daenerys?"

"I know nothing."


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

smbaker said:


> Every time I thought most of Dany's Dothraki were killed off, she still seemed to have hordes of Dothraki.


As ridiculous as it was to have sent the Dothraki on a suicide mission against an enemy that could raise the dead, at least there would have been some small shred of consolation in the fact that the writers needed to have the Dothraki wiped out for story purposes. But we didn't even get that. This was another example of theatrics thrown into the story in an attempt to artificially create drama.



Anubys said:


> Tyrion and Jaime promised him Highgarden if he didn't kill them and they won the war.


It would have been interesting if Grey Worm had accepted Davos' offer to live in the Reach. I'm not sure how he would have reacted to Bronn being his lord.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> Uh, you sent your best candidate Master of War across the Wall and your best candidate Master of Whispers left to sail off the edge of the world.


Arya probably wouldn't have wanted the job, but she would have been good at it. We already knew she was stealthy, but she is also apparently good at collecting secrets. Somehow she knew that Daenerys was aware of Jon's secret having been spread even though it hadn't been made public.

Maybe Varys did get one letter out, and it was to her.


> A,
> 
> I hope you remember everything I taught you. Your plan to pretend to sail off to some mysterious land, and then come back in disguise to collect information on the various leaders of Westeros is a good one. Your position will allow you to go places and learn things that I never could. Unfortunately, I will probably not be alive by the time you get back. This is why I am writing to you. She knows.
> 
> V.


(The name of this new Westerosi spy series is Nobody's Home.)

Speaking if Varys, his death in the previous episode didn't bother me because I thought that he had set some plans in motion that would have come to fruition in this episode. Now that we know he didn't, his death does seem less satisfying to me. Apparently his purpose this season was just to make Tyrion feel guilty about having chosen the wrong path. Still, the fact that he was willing to sacrifice his life for the good of the kingdom (even though he ultimately failed) demonstrated growth in his character from when he had been telling Ned Stark that he was no hero.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Because the Kingsroad goes to Castle Black. Going to Eastwatch would add hundreds of miles to their journey.


Except didn't Jon travel by ship..?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except didn't Jon travel by ship..?


Yes but rode into Castle Black on horse so I just assumed that all recruits/prisoners reported there before the Lord Commander assigned them a position. I mean, not that any of that matters since there was no Lord Commander or really a Night's Watch at this point.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

One little thing that I appreciated is Tyrion admitting that he was in love with Dany. I know we all knew it; especially after his reaction on the ship when Dany let Jon in her room to end the season, but I'm glad he confessed it. 

Is that the main reason he stopped having sex?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> One little thing that I appreciated is Tyrion admitting that he was in love with Dany. I know we all knew it; especially after his reaction on the ship when Dany let Jon in her room to end the season, but I'm glad he confessed it.
> 
> Is that the main reason he stopped having sex?


I'm not sure still that he meant it that way. You can love someone and as he said "believe in them with all your heart" but that does not mean he was IN love with her. I'd love to hear Peter's take on his character's feelings.


----------



## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

Shakhari said:


> Bran asking about a Master of Whispers and Master of War ...
> 
> Uh, you sent your best candidate Master of War across the Wall and your best candidate Master of Whispers left to sail off the edge of the world.
> 
> ...


Jon was escorted to Castle Black. The hole is hundreds of miles away at East Watch but the Sea.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Martin Tupper said:


> Jon was escorted to Castle Black. The hole is hundreds of miles away at East Watch but the Sea.


But he traveled by ship, so he must have landed at or near Eastwatch..?


----------



## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But he traveled by ship, so he must have landed at or near Eastwatch..?


I suppose they could have sailed to White Harbor, and picked up the Kings Road from there
.
Waze probably said that it would be faster.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

DUSlider said:


> I guess I'm in the minority, because I liked it. I just don't think it approaches the terribleness that was the Dexter series Finale. Taking a look at IMDB, the GoT Finale is rated as bad as the Dexter finale. Comon.... A few observations, I read all the replies in here and some of this have already been said, oh well. lol.
> ...


I only quoted the introduction for the sake of brevity, but this entire post is excellent. Thanks for sharing. I think this and Rob's initial post just about perfectly encapsulate my feelings about this episode.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Dexter is an excellent show up through Season 4. Then it started to go downhill and the last season was a travesty, with the finale being one of the worst of all time. I would recommend watching and just treating the S4 finale as the series finale.


Yup Dexter had one of the best series finales of all time followed by a bunch of additional seasons.

GoT finale is not even in the same league. A couple episodes this season and last were way worse than the finale. The finale of GOT had some nice moments and a satisfying ultimate fate for many characters (though I don't think the way they arrived there made a lot of sense). The last episode of Dexter was unparalleled in how terrible it was.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, it wasn't a great finalé. But it was a decent one. It got the job done, and rose above a very shaky final season.

I still say overall, the show didn't stick the landing. But it wasn't an embarrassment, even taking the last season as a whole.


----------



## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

The GOT finale was tough for me. I just had much higher expectations that one last plot twist would occur ending the series with a deliciously evil outcome. Instead, it seemed like they literally ran out of money and threw some chairs together in a couple of scenes once Dany died. It was just so disconnected, followed by uber cheesy. Not Dexter cheesy. But as many have said, I suppose each character ended up where they belonged. 

Perhaps I'll take the view that "The Long Night" was the series finale. It certainly made the entire season worth watching.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I'm not sure still that he meant it that way. You can love someone and as he said "believe in them with all your heart" but that does not mean he was IN love with her. I'd love to hear Peter's take on his character's feelings.


well...watch it again here (5:20 into the clip) 




"I know you love her. I love her too. Not as...successfully as you"

I see what you're saying...he follows that with "I believed in her with all my heart"...but for a man to say the line about success, that only means one thing...he failed where Jon did not...he wanted her and could not have her...


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

A truly bad ending can ruin an otherwise good show for me. The GoT ending, actually the whole last season, though poor, wasn't nearly THAT bad. The real problem is that the season was rushed and the finale seemed to be out of gas. Still, a decent ending to a truly great series.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

wprager said:


> So, when is "His Dark Materials" or whatever they end up naming it going to premier? Need something to fill Sunday nights (and also wash the bad taste of The Golden Compass out of my head).


Oh no. Did they screw up The Golden Compass?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MikeekiM said:


> Now you guys have me curious on both the SoA and the Dexter finales! LOL...
> 
> I guess I am a gluten for punishment!


I watched both of those shows and enjoyed them greatly. I found their finales to at least be more believable than GoT. At least those characters stayed in character and what they did made sense.

EDIT: Dexter finale was ridiculous.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MacThor said:


> It was odd for Dany to have Tyrion taken away after he admitted to treason.
> 
> She usually moves straight to the sentencing phase.


They needed him to be a prisoner so he could then somehow convince the world in a 3 minute speech that the mysterious cripple dude with zero battle or governing experience should be King of Westeros.

*sigh*


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

uncdrew said:


> I watched both of those shows and enjoyed them greatly. I found their finales to at least be more believable than GoT. At least those characters stayed in character and what they did made sense.


I'm really beginning to question your judgement of TV shows . The Dexter ending was not at all in character and beyond cheesy to boot. SoA I agree with you.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I got lazy and just skipped to the end of this thread so forgive me if I'm repeating what anyone else has already said. This whole season left me with the feeling that everyone connected with the show had just had enough and wanted it over with. This entire season just seemed rushed. They spent seven seasons building up to the war with the White Walkers and they had the entire war in a single episode. Then they went and did the same thing with the battle for the Iron Throne with Cersei. The final episode was just too predictable. I predicted that Bran would end up being the king before the 8th season even started. What I don't understand is why John Snow or anyone that knew his true lineage never spoke up after he killed Daenerys. When the council was deciding his fate, there were at least three people there that knew his true identity. When someone said that they have no king I was surprised that Sam didn't speak up and say something like "Well, you know that guy that you have in your dungeon? He's actually the true king." I usually try to suspend belief and not get too nitpicky about details for the sake of enjoying the show, but this final season just didn't make any sense to me. I think I saw something posted online that fans were petitioning for a do-over for season 8 so they could get it right this time. I'm not at all surprised that the 8th season was the lowest rated season of the entire series. Such a major disappointment.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> I'm really beginning to question your judgement of TV shows . The Dexter ending was not at all in character and beyond cheesy to boot. SoA I agree with you.


Perhaps I'm not remembering well.



Spoiler



He knew he was going to get caught so he moved to Alaska


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

uncdrew said:


> Perhaps I'm not remembering well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I'm talking about how he handled his sister's death and the whole storm scene


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I'm talking about how he handled his sister's death and the whole storm scene


Yeah, that was horrible. Perhaps the worst finale ever.

I wasn't all that vested in the show, so it didn't bug me as much. I agree with those who say it was awesome at first and in the middle.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

uncdrew said:


> Oh no. Did they screw up The Golden Compass?


I meant the movie with Nicole Kidman, James Bond and the CGI bears.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Oh no. Did they screw up The Golden Compass?


There was a movie in 2007 which was generally considered to be...non-optimal.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There was a movie in 2007 which was generally considered to be...non-optimal.


Ah, thanks. Thought someone made it into a show.

Did they make the other books in that trilogy into movies. I really did like the books.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

You know which books were made into really good movies?

Lord of the Rings
Harry Potter

I'm sure we already discussed it to death, but perhaps if the shows/movies wait until the books are done, they'll be a little better? Perhaps there's little correlation there. I dunno.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> well...watch it again here (5:20 into the clip)
> "I know you love her. I love her too. Not as...successfully as you"
> 
> I see what you're saying...he follows that with "I believed in her with all my heart"...but for a man to say the line about success, that only means one thing...he failed where Jon did not...he wanted her and could not have her...


Did not need to watch it again. I knew exactly what he said. I just don't take it the way you do so we'll have to agree to disagree. Either way they both loved her and it was painful for them to conspire and kill her.


----------



## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

uncdrew said:


> You know which books were made into really good movies?
> 
> Lord of the Rings
> Harry Potter
> ...


Counter point: The Passage.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> As ridiculous as it was to have sent the Dothraki on a suicide mission against an enemy that could raise the dead, at least there would have been some small shred of consolation in the fact that the writers needed to have the Dothraki wiped out for story purposes. But we didn't even get that. This was another example of theatrics thrown into the story in an attempt to artificially create drama.


Even worse, one of the D's called that scene "the end of the Dothraki" on the Inside the Episode.

They really didn't do themselves many favors (with those who are disappointed in the last 2 seasons) with their quotes in the post-episode segments.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There was a movie in 2007 which was generally considered to be...non-optimal.


Continuing off-topic; I love these books so much. I've read them in English and in German (for the practice). So while I didn't absolutely love the movie, I was one of the few that liked it. Kidman as Mrs. Coulter was a good bit of casting. Ditto for Daniel Craig. I read somewhere that its anti-religion themes got it hammered by religious groups


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I read somewhere that its anti-religion themes got it hammered by religious groups


Another problem was that its watering down of the anti-religion themes got it hammered by, well, fans of the books, who tended to like it for those themes (religious groups tended not to be very big fans in the first place).

So basically, it didn't please anybody.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

dwatt said:


> Counter point: The Passage.


Never heard of it. Fantasy genre?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Never heard of it. Fantasy genre?


Sci-fi/horror trilogy by a literary author...there was one season of a TV adaptation that just ended.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Did not need to watch it again. I knew exactly what he said. I just don't take it the way you do so we'll have to agree to disagree. Either way they both loved her and it was painful for them to conspire and kill her.


No worries...I totally understand your point of view...

If you like, we can continue our disagreement by re-enacting a couple of scenes from a movie...I'll be Billy, you're Meg (I'm only messing around, I do see how it can be interpreted your way)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except didn't Jon travel by ship..?





Rob Helmerichs said:


> But he traveled by ship, so he must have landed at or near Eastwatch..?


You're right. I'm guessing they landed at White Harbor, which seems to be the standard route when traveling between King's Landing and Winterfell by ship, and then went to Winterfell and up the Kingsroad to Castle Black.


photoshopgrl said:


> I'm not sure still that he meant it that way. You can love someone and as he said "believe in them with all your heart" but that does not mean he was IN love with her. I'd love to hear Peter's take on his character's feelings.


Just to add another voice, I absolutely took the "not as successfully as you" line to indicate that Tyrion definitely wished he could have been in a romantic relationship with Dany.



mr.unnatural said:


> I got lazy and just skipped to the end of this thread so forgive me if I'm repeating what anyone else has already said. This whole season left me with the feeling that everyone connected with the show had just had enough and wanted it over with. This entire season just seemed rushed. They spent seven seasons building up to the war with the White Walkers and they had the entire war in a single episode. Then they went and did the same thing with the battle for the Iron Throne with Cersei. The final episode was just too predictable. I predicted that Bran would end up being the king before the 8th season even started. *What I don't understand is why John Snow or anyone that knew his true lineage never spoke up after he killed Daenerys. When the council was deciding his fate, there were at least three people there that knew his true identity. When someone said that they have no king I was surprised that Sam didn't speak up and say something like "Well, you know that guy that you have in your dungeon? He's actually the true king."* I usually try to suspend belief and not get too nitpicky about details for the sake of enjoying the show, but this final season just didn't make any sense to me. I think I saw something posted online that fans were petitioning for a do-over for season 8 so they could get it right this time. I'm not at all surprised that the 8th season was the lowest rated season of the entire series. Such a major disappointment.


Jon kind of gave up his right to the throne when he killed the Queen. Nobody brought up his name in that scene because they all understood that there were enough voices that would have cried foul if they tried to reward Jon after he committed murder.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Isn't the rightful heir to the throne allowed to kill anyone they wish to?


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

That's what she said.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Jon kind of gave up his right to the throne when he killed the Queen. Nobody brought up his name in that scene because they all understood that there were enough voices that would have cried foul if they tried to reward Jon after he committed murder.


If he were into that sort of thing, it would have cemented his claim to the throne (after all, Robert became king by slaughtering his predecessor's entire family, and he didn't even have a blood claim). Winners write the histories; if Jon had wanted the throne, then Dany's death wouldn't have been murder; it would have been the righteous cutting down of a tyrannical usurper.

But Jon didn't want the throne.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Oh no. Did they screw up The Golden Compass?





Rob Helmerichs said:


> There was a movie in 2007 which was generally considered to be...non-optimal.





mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Continuing off-topic; I love these books so much. I've read them in English and in German (for the practice). So while I didn't absolutely love the movie, I was one of the few that liked it.


Count me as another person who liked the movie. I didn't read any of the books, but I thought the movie was well done, and I was disappointed that they never made a sequel. I'm really looking forward to the new TV series.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

The more I think about, the more I've come to the conclusion that the main aspect of the show that the writers dropped the ball on was the Bran/TER character. Perhaps the character is more fleshed out in the books, but the show kind of glossed over a character that, based on the ending, was clearly supposed to be one of the most central and important characters in the series. And because the character wasn't developed well, him becoming the king just doesn't feel like a satisfying conclusion.

What sucks is that they introduced some cool ideas but there was never any payoff. For example, Bran's ability to warg into animals was pretty cool, but he didn't end up using that ability in any important way. I thought for sure he was going to warg into a dragon at some point. How cool would it have been if Drogon was about to kill Jon and Bran saves him by warging into him. It certainly would have made a lot more sense if Bran was the one who made Drogon destroy the iron throne.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

wprager said:


> That's what she said.


That was funny.

She wasn't the rightful heir, however.

[EDIT: Rob explained my take better in the post above]


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> If he were into that sort of thing, it would have cemented his claim to the throne (after all, Robert became king by slaughtering his predecessor's entire family, and he didn't even have a blood claim). Winners write the histories; if Jon had wanted the throne, then Dany's death wouldn't have been murder; it would have been the righteous cutting down of a tyrannical usurper.
> 
> But Jon didn't want the throne.


Neither did Bran. I mean, except for the fact that he clearly foresaw everything, did nothing to stop it, then traveled for weeks/months to come down to King's Landing to accept the nomination as king when there were several pretty good alternative candidates.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Neither did Bran. I mean, except for the fact that he clearly foresaw everything, did nothing to stop it, then traveled for weeks/months to come down to King's Landing to accept the nomination as king when there were several pretty good alternative candidates.


Bran could have easily stopped the murder of thousands of innocents. What an evil, selfish kid.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

gweempose said:


> Perhaps the character is more fleshed out in the books, but the show kind of glossed over a character that, based on the ending, was clearly supposed to be one of the most central and important characters in the series. And because the character wasn't developed well, him becoming the king just doesn't feel like a satisfying conclusion.


My gut feeling is that this is where it hurt that GRRM hasn't finished the books yet. He probably told the producers that Bran was to be king, perhaps they even knew it from the beginning of the series, but the storytelling just fell flat after Bran became the 3ER.

Personally I think there's a huge concept problem with Bran and the 3ER. He has almost godlike powers. He can perhaps see the future. He can definitely see the past. He can even affect the past to some extent. He has expansive vision over the present via his warging abilities. It's just too much. Once you've given him that level of power, what do you do with that character? You almost have to make him hostage to his own vision and restrict his ability to affect the present. If you do that, then he becomes this uninteresting stare-blankly-at-the-camera guy. Who the heck wants that guy winning the game? IMO, this was a bad concept. Maybe that's why GRRM can't finish the books, because he too doesn't know how to make it work.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Bran could have easily stopped the murder of thousands of innocents. What an evil, selfish kid.


Maybe it's like Dr. Strange analyzing millions of possible outcomes and this one was the best. Sure, a lot of innocent people died, but maybe any other version of events left more people dead.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Maybe it's like Dr. Strange analyzing millions of possible outcomes and this one was the best. Sure, a lot of innocent people died, but maybe any other version of events left more people dead.


So Dany was right in frying everyone? I can go with that.


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Maybe it's like Dr. Strange analyzing millions of possible outcomes and this one was the best. Sure, a lot of innocent people died, but maybe any other version of events left more people dead.





uncdrew said:


> So Dany was right in frying everyone? I can go with that.


I don't think that's what DevdogAZ meant. It's not about right or wrong, but outcomes. Dany's still wrong, but a different tactic might have meant that not only did the people of King's Landing get killed, but a lot of Dany's people died, too. Or if Jon didn't kill Dany, how many more cities would she have leveled. Dany's still wrong for killing innocent civilians. Or, she accepts the surrender, but that allows Cersei to escape and the war doesn't end there. Or Cersei doesn't escape, but there are too many supporters of the Lannisters left alive and the war continues. We could speculate forever.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

I continue to feel that even though so many people are interested in it, who became King isn't what the end was about. That's why Bran seems to fall short in everyone's eyes but this wasn't a story of succession but of change.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Another problem was that its watering down of the anti-religion themes got it hammered by, well, fans of the books, who tended to like it for those themes (religious groups tended not to be very big fans in the first place).
> 
> So basically, it didn't please anybody.


According to Tyrion, that makes it a good compromise


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

gweempose said:


> The more I think about, the more I've come to the conclusion that the main aspect of the show that the writers dropped the ball on was the Bran/TER character. Perhaps the character is more fleshed out in the books, but the show kind of glossed over a character that, based on the ending, was clearly supposed to be one of the most central and important characters in the series. And because the character wasn't developed well, him becoming the king just doesn't feel like a satisfying conclusion.


I'd say that's true, there are a few characters that are more fleshed out in the books, or maybe not as faithfully adapted in the TV show. The TV show is having to hit the major plot milestones without the benefit of a lot of small details that I assume are to come yet in the books. Watching the show after reading the books has only made me want the next 2 books even more to see what the real author's vision is. I appreciate what the show has done in telling the story that wasn't finished, and enjoyed it for what it was, but I view it almost as fan fiction in a way. The real story hasn't truly been revealed yet.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

hefe said:


> I'd say that's true, there are a few characters that are more fleshed out in the books, or maybe not as faithfully adapted in the TV show. The TV show is having to hit the major plot milestones without the benefit of a lot of small details that I assume are to come yet in the books. Watching the show after reading the books has only made me want the next 2 books even more to see what the real author's vision is. I appreciate what the show has done in telling the story that wasn't finished, and enjoyed it for what it was, but I view it almost as fan fiction in a way. The real story hasn't truly been revealed yet.


I wonder if part of the problem in Bran's case is that so much of his story happens inside his own head[1]? That sort of thing is whole a lot easier for an author to write than for a showrunner to depict.

[1] or, technically, various animals' heads


----------



## Howie (May 3, 2004)

I knew Jon was going to kill Dany before he even did it. I was just hoping we'd get to see her naked one more time before he did.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Howie said:


> I knew Jon was going to kill Dany before he even did it. I was just hoping we'd get to see her naked one more time before he did.


Hell, I knew it a couple of weeks ago...


Rob Helmerichs said:


> I really think Dany goes full Targaryan, and somebody (Jon would be the most tragic candidate) has to kill her to save everybody else.


Not much chance of your wish being fulfilled. She's said she doesn't like the nude scenes, and her wishes have a lot more sway now than they did in the early seasons!


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Who won the Game of Thrones?

Why Peter Dinklage, of course.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

JYoung said:


> Who won the Game of Thrones?
> 
> Why Peter Dinklage, of course.


Can someone post the text of this for me. There are so many ads on that page my browser keeps freezing up.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Can someone post the text of this for me. There are so many ads on that page my browser keeps freezing up.





> The biggest trick "Game of Thrones" played on its audience was not the two-season buildup to a battle with the Night King that lasted only one episode or the survival of way more Dothraki than seemed possible after that big "lights out" scene.
> 
> It wasn't the earned/not-earned moment when the dragon queen decided to torch Kings Landing or even the surprisingly immediate agreement of everyone that Bran Stark should be king of Westeros.
> 
> ...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Great read, thank you!! Tyrion won me over quite fast and he's never been topped as my favorite character by anyone else.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)




----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1130320975453675520


----------



## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Sorry if this was posted already, but I found this worth a watch:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1130581319593783296


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Jon kind of gave up his right to the throne when he killed the Queen. Nobody brought up his name in that scene because they all understood that there were enough voices that would have cried foul if they tried to reward Jon after he committed murder.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> If he were into that sort of thing, it would have cemented his claim to the throne (after all, Robert became king by slaughtering his predecessor's entire family, and he didn't even have a blood claim). Winners write the histories; if Jon had wanted the throne, then Dany's death wouldn't have been murder; it would have been the righteous cutting down of a tyrannical usurper.
> 
> But Jon didn't want the throne.


This. Bran didn't want the throne either, but he accepted it anyway. Who knows how Jon would have reacted if he was outed as the real king? They couldn't condemn him for killing Daenerys because that was basically his right. Killing the sitting monarch usually entitles you to the throne anyway. In this case, Jon just unseated an usurper to the throne.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> TThey couldn't condemn him for killing Daenerys because that was basically his right. Killing the sitting monarch usually entitles you to the throne anyway. In this case, Jon just unseated an usurper to the throne.


Have you not heard anything Varys said about power?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

nirisahn said:


> I don't think that's what DevdogAZ meant. It's not about right or wrong, but outcomes. Dany's still wrong, but a different tactic might have meant that not only did the people of King's Landing get killed, but a lot of Dany's people died, too. Or if Jon didn't kill Dany, how many more cities would she have leveled. Dany's still wrong for killing innocent civilians. Or, she accepts the surrender, but that allows Cersei to escape and the war doesn't end there. Or Cersei doesn't escape, but there are too many supporters of the Lannisters left alive and the war continues. We could speculate forever.


I was being silly.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Great read, thank you!! Tyrion won me over quite fast and he's never been topped as my favorite character by anyone else.


LittleFinger begs you to speak alone with him...he can explain everything...give him a chance to defend himself, he deserves that...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I was being silly.


you were just being yourself!


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm relieved to have found out that none of my friends who watch GoT were angry or needed therapy after the finale.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm relieved to have found out that none of my friends who watch GoT were angry or needed therapy after the finale.


WHAT?!? What is WRONG with those people?!?


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm relieved to have found out that none of my friends who watch GoT were angry or needed therapy after the finale.


That's pretty amazing. Think how much they will be saving by not needing therapy anymore!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> LittleFinger begs you to speak alone with him...he can explain everything...give him a chance to defend himself, he deserves that...


Well I mean........... I did love Petyr but loved him in a way that I accepted he was not a good guy but was such a fascinating character. I did feel pretty upset when he died. He made me want to see him win for some reason!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm relieved to have found out that none of my friends who watch GoT were angry or needed therapy after the finale.


Ghost lived and got his good boy love at the end so they saved me from needing therapy.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> That's pretty amazing. Think how much they will be saving by not needing therapy anymore!


Regicide solves lots of problems.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Well I mean........... I did love Petyr but (snip)


Did you mean to say "not as successfully as you" here?


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Wow....good pull on Petr. Wasn't he killed in the S7 finale? Then Varys and Tyrion arrive at Winterfell in the S8 premiere.

I think this show could have been a lot more interesting if they'd let Littlefinger live for at least one more episode, and reunited them.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> This. Bran didn't want the throne either, but he accepted it anyway. Who knows how Jon would have reacted if he was outed as the real king? They couldn't condemn him for killing Daenerys because that was basically his right. Killing the sitting monarch usually entitles you to the throne anyway. In this case, Jon just unseated an usurper to the throne.


Does the fact that Jon had bent the knee and pledged himself to Dany change that at all? I mean, going to war to overthrow a usurper is noble. But stabbing the queen that you swore allegiance to is ... not so much.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)




----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

What was Jaime's punishment for regicide? A stern talking to?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Drogon, Who? George R.R. Martin Just Confirmed the Final 'Game of Thrones' Books Will Have Unicorns


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Well I mean........... I did love Petyr but loved him in a way that I accepted he was not a good guy but was such a fascinating character. I did feel pretty upset when he died. He made me want to see him win for some reason!


It's like me and Dany.

Love her.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm relieved to have found out that none of my friends who watch GoT were angry or needed therapy after the finale.


A few acquaintances apparently need therapy, but close friends and family members that I've spoken to all liked the ending. I'm relieved.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Does the fact that Jon had bent the knee and pledged himself to Dany change that at all? I mean, going to war to overthrow a usurper is noble. But stabbing the queen that you swore allegiance to is ... not so much.


That was before Daenerys decided to decimate an entire city full of innocent people in cold blood. I think seeing that would change any sane person's mind about allegiance to a madwoman. It clearly changed his mind about her being Queen of the Realm. Jon knew that she had to be stopped or there would be endless bloodshed in her name. He still loved her, but she had to die.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> A few acquaintances apparently need therapy...


Isn't that what this thread is?


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ct1 said:


> Have you not heard anything Varys said about power?


Honestly, I don't recall what he said. I have a very short term memory and things like this tend to get lost in the shuffle. I could barely keep up with who did what to who during the previous 7 seasons so one person's speech would have fallen into the cracks.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Does the fact that Jon had bent the knee and pledged himself to Dany change that at all? I mean, going to war to overthrow a usurper is noble. But stabbing the queen that you swore allegiance to is ... not so much.


Still better than a psychopath who has no human emotion and has mostly only used his powers to cause or allow others to come to great harm.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Honestly, I don't recall what he said. I have a very short term memory and things like this tend to get lost in the shuffle. I could barely keep up with who did what to who during the previous 7 seasons so one person's speech would have fallen into the cracks.


I think the quote in question is: 
"Power resides where men believe it resides. It's a trick. A shadow on the wall. And a very small man can cast a very large shadow."


----------



## Lady Honora (Oct 9, 2018)

TriBruin said:


> I said the same thing last night. Brienne would never have left Sansa's service, especially knowing that she would be named Queen of the North. It would have been better to see her as the head of the Queensguard for Sansa than head fo the Kingsguard for Bran. (But, I guess that would be the only way for her to write in the Kingsguard history book.)


I can see Sansa releasing Brienne from her vow, so she can stay and protect Bran. Sansa knows she can be trusted to guard her weird little brother. We just didn't get to see it on screen.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Lady Honora said:


> I can see Sansa releasing Brienne from her vow, so she can stay and protect Bran. Sansa knows she can be trusted to guard her weird little brother. We just didn't get to see it on screen.


Now that Sansa is Queen of the North, I think it's fine that Brienne no longer needs to shadow her. Sansa has multiple lines of defense against danger.

I don't think Brienne was going to be standing outside her room like The Mountain did for Cercei, so I don't think she was needed.

She's a knight now, and deserved a promotion.

-smak-


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

dslunceford said:


> Sorry if this was posted already, but I found this worth a watch:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1130581319593783296


I would have thought Bronn would have died in a dispute over a brothel bill.
(And I would hope that Tyrion would make sure that the Master of Coin wasn't skimming a little off the top.)


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

The final Gay of Thrones. I loved "Tilda" updating Jamie's Wikipedia page.


----------



## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

Nice finish, something for everyone to not be satisfied about......


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smak said:


> Now that Sansa is Queen of the North, I think it's fine that Brienne no longer needs to shadow her. Sansa has multiple lines of defense against danger.
> 
> I don't think Brienne was going to be standing outside her room like The Mountain did for Cercei, so I don't think she was needed.
> 
> ...


It's a lateral move. She's a member of the King's Guard (or even the Captain) and she would've been the Captain of the Queen's Guard. Pretty much the same duties and job description, just a different "company".


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm relieved to have found out that none of my friends who watch GoT were angry or needed therapy after the finale.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> WHAT?!? What is WRONG with those people?!?


You mean "besides being friends with cheesesteak", right? cause that's a heck of a lot of needed therapy right there!


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> It's a lateral move. She's a member of the King's Guard (or even the Captain) and she would've been the Captain of the Queen's Guard. Pretty much the same duties and job description, just a different "company".


I assume she is the Captain because she was, apparently, part of the Small Council.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

TriBruin said:


> I assume she is the Captain because she was, apparently, part of the Small Council.


And isn't the Captain the one that updates the book?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Agreed...I just wasn't sure...still, Captain of the King or Captain of the Queen she had originally pledged her loyalty to...

I made this point hundreds of posts ago, I don't mind that she left; I do mind that they didn't show us the conversation where this happened. Given the time we invested in her quest and eventual pledging to Sansa (a scene that is one of the more powerful scenes in the entire show...and that's saying something!), I feel we were owed a scene where the release from her vows happened.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

That falls into the "Oops, we didn't ask for enough episodes" category. If they'd done everything they really should have done, we would have had six 2-3 hour episodes this season!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Agreed...I just wasn't sure...still, Captain of the King or Captain of the Queen she had originally pledged her loyalty to...
> 
> I made this point hundreds of posts ago, I don't mind that she left; I do mind that they didn't show us the conversation where this happened. Given the time we invested in her quest and eventual pledging to Sansa (a scene that is one of the more powerful scenes in the entire show...and that's saying something!), I feel we were owed a scene where the release from her vows happened.


I feel this way about so much from this season though.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> You mean "besides being friends with cheesesteak", right? cause that's a heck of a lot of needed therapy right there!


I resemble that remark!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I did appreciate the acting of Dany and Tyrion. Really good performances.

I've never really liked the Jon character, in part due to the acting.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I'm curious. For those of you that absolutely hated how the show concluded, did it ruin the show for you to the point that you will never watch it again? I'm cool with the ending to GoT, but that's how I feel about How I Met Your Mother.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

gweempose said:


> I'm curious. For those of you that absolutely hated how the show concluded, did it ruin the show for you to the point that you will never watch it again? I'm cool with the ending to GoT, but that's how I feel about How I Met Your Mother.


Hated the ending/last episode. I feel they got so much wrong. It just left me so empty. It just felt "undone" and that things were missed/skipped/ignored.

But I'll watch again. No doubt. Loved the series.

How did "How I Met Your Mother" end? Weren't they looking for some woman with an umbrella? Ted annoyed me, so I didn't keep up with that show. Loved Barney though.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

gweempose said:


> I'm curious. For those of you that absolutely hated how the show concluded, did it ruin the show for you to the point that you will never watch it again? I'm cool with the ending to GoT, but that's how I feel about How I Met Your Mother.


I was fine with this epsiode, but had problems with the rest of the season. I'll probably never watch it again, just because I've watched Season 1 three times now, and the rest at least twice. I'm more likely to re-read the early books, when (if?) GRRM finishes his book series.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I wasn’t going to watch it again regardless. The question I’m asking myself now is do I want to read the rest of the books, should they ever be published. I’m leaning towards no.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> How did "How I Met Your Mother" end?


We can't really discuss HIMYM spoilers here, but I think it's universally known that a majority of people were extremely unsatisfied with the show's finale.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

gweempose said:


> I'm curious. For those of you that absolutely hated how the show concluded, did it ruin the show for you to the point that you will never watch it again? I'm cool with the ending to GoT, but that's how I feel about How I Met Your Mother.


I didn't hate it, but I don't think I'll watch it again. I might read it again. To me, the books are the real series, the show is just a fairly faithful visualization of the books, to a point.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hefe said:


> I didn't hate it, but I don't think I'll watch it again. I might read it again. To me, the books are the real series, the show is just a fairly faithful visualization of the books, to a point.


I felt that way in the early seasons. But then Martin kinda got lost in the weeds, and the show did a brilliant job of trimming the story down to a more manageable structure. The show actually became superior to the books. It's really only the season that I started to miss the books again...I wasn't even planning on reading any future books until this season aired. Now I'm curious...


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I felt that way in the early seasons. But then Martin kinda got lost in the weeds, and the show did a brilliant job of trimming the story down to a more manageable structure. The show actually became superior to the books. It's really only the season that I started to miss the books again...I wasn't even planning on reading any future books until this season aired. Now I'm curious...


The first couple seasons were really faithful, I didn't care for some of the divergences, even though I understand that they needed to keep it simpler for the show and keep characters more present and involved. You just can't match the depth and exposition of a book. I like getting into the weeds.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hefe said:


> The first couple seasons were really faithful, I didn't care for some of the divergences, even though I understand that they needed to keep it simpler for the show and keep characters more present and involved. You just can't match the depth and exposition of a book. I like getting into the weeds.


The problem is that Martin simply lost track of where he was going. (He has admitted as much...his original plan included a five-year gap in the story, but when he got there he decided to show those five years, and the whole story just spun out of control.)

A garden should have flowers, not weeds. In the early books, Martin was a master gardener, but since then the weeds have taken over and choked off all the flowers.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

It‘s such a heyday of great TV that it‘d be a very rare show that I would rewatch. Breaking Bad is the only one I can recall, and that was to get fully ready for Better Call Saul.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

A couple of points:

First, I didn't hate ep. 6. (but I did not like ep. 5) This episode was okay, maybe even good. The acting was quite good, the cinematography and special effects were spectacular, all of which compensated some for the not-so-good writing this season. But, I probably will never be a fan of season 8. It didn't ruin it for me, but I won't really look back at this season with the same level that I did with previous seasons. 

I think that as long as D&D had the books as a structure to draw from, they were fine. When they had to come up with the final points of the series and were without that structure, they slipped. Was that coincidental? I don't think so. If you look at it, and this is my opinion, that "slippage" started in season 7, and worsened in season 8.

"...endings are hard..."


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I liked the series other than the Ramsay Bolton parts. I have no plans to do a whole series re-watch unless I'm unlucky enough to become bedridden in the future.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I'll probably do a rewatch a few years down the line. I will definitely do a re-read once the other books are both available.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I liked the series other than the Ramsay Bolton parts. I have no plans to do a whole series re-watch unless I'm unlucky enough to become bedridden in the future.


I could not agree more...I just did a marathon rewatch to prepare for season 8 and I found myself FFing through 2 things: Ramsey & Reek and - surprisingly - almost anything that had to do with Dany and Mereen and Astapor and all that junk.

The Dany parts were not because they were bad, I just didn't feel they were particularly important or worth rewatching. Now a scene with Tywin and Tyrion? that was worth every second!


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I could not agree more...I just did a marathon rewatch to prepare for season 8 and I found myself FFing through 2 things: Ramsey & Reek and - surprisingly - almost anything that had to do with Dany and Mereen and Astapor and all that junk.
> 
> The Dany parts were not because they were bad, I just didn't feel they were particularly important or worth rewatching. Now a scene with Tywin and Tyrion? that was worth every second!


For me the Ramsey/Reek stuff didn't seem to last as long on the rewatch as it did when watching it on the first viewing.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I liked the series other than the Ramsay Bolton parts.


Yeah, that part reeked.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

If you want to blame somebody for the problems in season 7 and 8, GRRM is at the top of the list.

I'm pretty sure that him not writing any more books since the show started is not what HBO & D&D signed up for.

-smak-


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Now a scene with Tywin and Tyrion? that was worth every second!


Charles Dance is a great actor and a strong presence in any scene he participated in.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Dire Wolf spotted at our dog park.










Actually, it's just Reggie (80lb shepherd) and Beloux (140lb NewFoundland), caught with his ears raised, but really does kinda look like a Dire Wolf. 










Beloux is ONE HUGE but sweet dog!


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I love Newfs (and that is a pretty one!), but like most giant breeds they have such short lives.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

ct1 said:


> Charles Dance is a great actor and a strong presence in any scene he participated in.


Did you know that when Tywin Lannister was skinning a stag in an early scene (it may have been his character's first spoken lines), he was actually skinning an actual stag? And you can see the symbolism of a Lannister butchering a stag (the House Baratheon symbol on their banners).


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> For me the Ramsey/Reek stuff didn't seem to last as long on the rewatch as it did when watching it on the first viewing.


Same for me, which was quite surprising. It seemed to drag on forever on first watch; second time it really didn't seem like that much time was devoted to it. I guess because I knew how it ended?



getreal said:


> Did you know that when Tywin Lannister was skinning a stag in an early scene (it may have been his character's first spoken lines), he was actually skinning an actual stag? And you can see the symbolism of a Lannister butchering a stag (the House Baratheon symbol on their banners).


Top 5 favorite scene of all time. It so fully fleshed out the character of Tywin Lannister.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)




----------



## Lady Honora (Oct 9, 2018)

LordKronos said:


> The whole think about the North remaining independent...I know that's always been what they've been leading us to all along, but now the other 6 kingdoms are just going to accept an independent North under stark rule, while the 6 kingdoms remain separate...under Stark rule?


Since most of the other major Houses have been destroyed, the other 6 kingdoms are in disarray and won't be able to complain for many years to come. That should give Bran's Council time to set up a stable government.


----------



## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

Just finished watching season 8 on BluRay. I somehow kept from hearing any spoilers. All I knew was that a lot of people didn't like the way it was wrapped up. I was pretty much okay with it.

As pointed out in the thread about a previous episode I thought Varys was sending off notes letting the other leaders know about Jon's true heritage. But then he gets roasted and nothing comes of it.


----------



## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

dslunceford said:


> Maybe his ashes were in the water bottle next to Sam's foot


I found this exact scene on the BluRay disc, no water bottle. So they erased it.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

One year ago tonight. Hard to believe it's been a year, and hard to believe it's only been a year.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

astrohip said:


> One year ago tonight. Hard to believe it's been a year, and hard to believe it's only been a year.


Wow so much has happened in my life and the world since this time last year.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

it still makes me angry how badly the effed up the last season. So many things could have been done to make it better. They skipped over so much because they decided to shorten the season. The entire premise of the show (the white walkers and the Night king) were swept away with one crappy episode. The whole story line point about Arya becoming an assassin, skipped. By far though the worst was Jaime's stupidity leaving Brienne and then running back to Cersei. Just so completely out of character and threw away multiple season's worth of growth for the character.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

DavidTigerFan said:


> it still makes me angry how badly the effed up the last season. So many things could have been done to make it better. They skipped over so much because they decided to shorten the season. The entire premise of the show (the white walkers and the Night king) were swept away with one crappy episode. The whole story line point about Arya becoming an assassin, skipped. By far though the worst was Jaime's stupidity leaving Brienne and then running back to Cersei. Just so completely out of character and threw away multiple season's worth of growth for the character.


Please don't get me riled up again about this. I've made peace with their shirty ending. (at least I thought I had)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Wow so much has happened in my life and the world since this time last year.


Kinda hard to believe this past January wasn't a year ago...


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Kinda hard to believe this past January wasn't a year ago...


Feels more like half a decade ago!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I find it hard to be angry at a piece of fiction. I just enjoyed the ride. I'm looking forward to the next book, if it ever comes, to get the real story.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

hefe said:


> I find it hard to be angry at a piece of fiction. I just enjoyed the ride. I'm looking forward to the next book, if it ever comes, to get the real story.


See that's the thing....unless he has a major change in writing style, I don't see him ever finishing the series. Sure, I think that he'll get the next book out sometime, but even he can't fix the stupidity of the last season. He writes too much anyway....too many side plots that have no bearing on the main story.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

DavidTigerFan said:


> it still makes me angry how badly the effed up the last season. So many things could have been done to make it better. They skipped over so much because they decided to shorten the season. The entire premise of the show (the white walkers and the Night king) were swept away with one crappy episode. The whole story line point about Arya becoming an assassin, skipped. By far though the worst was Jaime's stupidity leaving Brienne and then running back to Cersei. Just so completely out of character and threw away multiple season's worth of growth for the character.


I pretty much disagree with all of this but refuse to get sucked back in


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

hefe said:


> I find it hard to be angry at a piece of fiction. I just enjoyed the ride. I'm looking forward to the next book, if it ever comes, to get the real story.


Again over time, I've mellowed about this. The ride was so good that the destination almost didn't matter as much to me. A lot like Lost or The Sopranos, the series were so interesting and great and the endings were disappointing, but in the end, everything else was so great I could forgive them. Really only one show that I can remember in the last ten years or so that I've watched really nailed the ending and that was The Americans. That was almost universally loved. Other than that?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Steveknj said:


> Again over time, I've mellowed about this. The ride was so good that the destination almost didn't matter as much to me. A lot like Lost or The Sopranos, the series were so interesting and great and the endings were disappointing, but in the end, everything else was so great I could forgive them. Really only one show that I can remember in the last ten years or so that I've watched really nailed the ending and that was The Americans. That was almost universally loved. Other than that?


You're right. Lost, Dexter, SOA....... there are many others I'm sure if I think long enough, they all had major disappointing endings for me. I think Breaking Bad is one of the only shows I can say had the perfect ending. Then others like Justified, White Collar, Mad Men, Orphan Black, Mr Robot and maybe Boardwalk Empire had pretty good endings. Maybe not my ideal way to end things like BB, but pretty darn close. As once quoted by a fictional character, "endings are hard".


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> You're right. Lost, Dexter, SOA....... there are many others I'm sure if I think long enough, they all had major disappointing endings for me. I think Breaking Bad is one of the only shows I can say had the perfect ending. Then others like Justified, White Collar, Mad Men, Orphan Black, Mr Robot and maybe Boardwalk Empire had pretty good endings. Maybe not my ideal way to end things like BB, but pretty darn close. As once quoted by a fictional character, "endings are hard".


OK, my mind didn't come up with a few of those, but The Americans stood out to me as a show with the perfect ending. Mr Robot was pretty good as well. I don't remember White Collar's ending, so I guess it wasn't good or bad for me. Same with Boardwalk Empire. I think OB was fairly good, as well. Never got to the endings of Breaking Bad or Justified. Was just not interested enough. Mad Men? That was another I just wasn't sure about when I watched it. I thought the series was much better than the ending (and I remember people moaning about his last idea...won't go into it as it would be a spoiler).

Actually thought of one more that I liked the ending. I thought The Deuce had a pretty good ending, though I didn't like the last season all that much.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Steveknj said:


> OK, my mind didn't come up with a few of those, but The Americans stood out to me as a show with the perfect ending. Mr Robot was pretty good as well. I don't remember White Collar's ending, so I guess it wasn't good or bad for me. Same with Boardwalk Empire. I think OB was fairly good, as well. Never got to the endings of Breaking Bad or Justified. Was just not interested enough. Mad Men? That was another I just wasn't sure about when I watched it. I thought the series was much better than the ending (and I remember people moaning about his last idea...won't go into it as it would be a spoiler).
> 
> Actually thought of one more that I liked the ending. I thought The Deuce had a pretty good ending, though I didn't like the last season all that much.


Yes, I remember seeing people moaning about that final episode of Mad Men but for me, it was okay. It could have been better but I didn't find it on par with the disappointment of the others I mentioned. You never got to the endings of the two best shows ever on TV for me. SAD!


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

photoshopgrl said:


> You're right. Lost, Dexter, SOA....... there are many others I'm sure if I think long enough, they all had major disappointing endings for me. I think Breaking Bad is one of the only shows I can say had the perfect ending. Then others like Justified, White Collar, Mad Men, Orphan Black, Mr Robot and maybe Boardwalk Empire had pretty good endings. Maybe not my ideal way to end things like BB, but pretty darn close. As once quoted by a fictional character, "endings are hard".


Ugh, dexter should not even be mentioned ever again. It was actual canceled before the last season.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> Ugh, dexter should not even be mentioned ever again. It was actual canceled before the last season.


Dexter was such and up and down series. Some seasons were so fantastic, and other seasons were just terrible.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

"Six Feet Under" had the best finale for me.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think I will binge this show all over again in a couple of week; when I'm done with the current show I'm watching...it's been a while since I watched the first 4 seasons...


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I think I will binge this show all over again in a couple of week; when I'm done with the current show I'm watching...it's been a while since I watched the first 4 seasons...


I'lll never watch it again because I'll just be reminded the whole first 4 seasons how good it was and how badly it ended.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I'lll never watch it again because I'll just be reminded the whole first 4 seasons how good it was and how badly it ended.


I won't watch it again because I have SO much else to watch. That said, if a random episode is on, I might give it a look, like so many syndicated shows I've watched over the years.


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## Hcour (Dec 24, 2007)

GOT is one of those shows I will definitely re-watch in the years to come, probably a few times. Disappointing ending doesn't matter, everything else about it was superb, one of the best series ever.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Endings are hard. There are a lot of really good books that whimper out at the end; Stephen King comes to mind in this regard. I'm often willing to forgive a weak ending if the ride to get there was fun.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rickvz said:


> "Six Feet Under" had the best finale for me.


+1000


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Hcour said:


> GOT is one of those shows I will definitely re-watch in the years to come, probably a few times. Disappointing ending doesn't matter, everything else about it was superb, one of the best series ever.


I always say I'll rewatch and just never do. I've sat down at least 4 or 5 times to rewatch Lost and the furthest I've gotten is to the first episode of S3. As I said, these days there's just so much to watch. Twenty years ago, I probably would have re watched some of these, but now? I have at least 4-5 series lined up on each Netflix, Hulu, AP, even Apple TV+ (which thanks to my daughter's new iPad we have a years subscription). And if baseball was happening, I would have even less time.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

ej42137 said:


> Endings are hard. There are a lot of really good books that whimper out at the end; Stephen King comes to mind in this regard. I'm often willing to forgive a weak ending if the ride to get there was fun.


Curious what SK books you thought whimpered out?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

ej42137 said:


> Endings are hard. There are a lot of really good books that whimper out at the end; Stephen King comes to mind in this regard. I'm often willing to forgive a weak ending if the ride to get there was fun.


But see, this one wasn't hard. Just tie up loose plot points. The point that have spanned the entire 8 seasons...don't make characters revert to their old ways after 2 seasons of growth...or if you do, don't cram the reversal into 2 episodes and give the viewers whiplash. Use the bad guys that you set up throughout the whole series instead of magically ending the arc in one episode.

The whole "end" could have been so much better had they just had a full 10 episode season, or better yet, one more season.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> But see, this one wasn't hard. Just tie up loose plot points. The point that have spanned the entire 8 seasons...don't make characters revert to their old ways after 2 seasons of growth...or if you do, don't cram the reversal into 2 episodes and give the viewers whiplash. Use the bad guys that you set up throughout the whole series instead of magically ending the arc in one episode.
> 
> The whole "end" could have been so much better had they just had a full 10 episode season, or better yet, one more season.


Yep agree. I think the final three episodes felt rushed and the person who ultimately went on the throne just came out of left field with no clue they were even going there. We saw these huge battles for control of the throne and in the end, the wimpiest character on the show end up on the Iron Throne. To me that was the biggest WTF.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

photoshopgrl said:


> Curious what SK books you thought whimpered out?


I liked _Under the Dome_, but the ending was tacked on and silly. The "Gunslinger" series started off well with the novella published in F&SF but then he lost his way (an egregious example because I only liked the beginning.) I thought _The Colorado Kid_ had a weak ending. _11/22/63_ didn't satisfy at the end. (Actually, I'm having a hard time coming up with an example where he did have a satisfactory ending.)

I generally like his stories, I just think he's weak on endings.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> I generally like his stories, I just think he's weak on endings.


Yeah, I agree.

E.g., I really liked _The Stand_, but I thought it just sort of fizzled out in the end. And then in the uncut version, it fizzled out more slowly.

I'm not sure he's ever really stuck the landing. He's more of a situational writer...i.e., he writes interesting characters and puts them in interesting situations facing interesting problems, but he's never been much of a plotter. More of a storyteller. We should all be listening to him sitting around the campfire, and have fallen asleep before he actually finishes.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Steveknj said:


> Yep agree. I think the final three episodes felt rushed and the person who ultimately went on the throne just came out of left field with no clue they were even going there. We saw these huge battles for control of the throne and in the end, the wimpiest character on the show end up on the Iron Throne. To me that was the biggest WTF.


I still think you guys missed the whole point when I hear this. This was meant to be the end of the GoT both literally and figuratively. Having the next new best/strongest ruler sit on the throne both literally and figuratively was exactly the wrong way to end the show.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> I still think you guys missed the whole point when I hear this. This was meant to be the end of the GoT both literally and figuratively. Having the next new best/strongest ruler sit on the throne both literally and figuratively was exactly the wrong way to end the show.


Well, that's one opinion anyway.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, I agree.
> 
> E.g., I really liked _The Stand_, but I thought it just sort of fizzled out in the end. And then in the uncut version, it fizzled out more slowly.
> 
> I'm not sure he's ever really stuck the landing. He's more of a situational writer...i.e., he writes interesting characters and puts them in interesting situations facing interesting problems, but he's never been much of a plotter. More of a storyteller. We should all be listening to him sitting around the campfire, and have fallen asleep before he actually finishes.


I disagree because for me the story and the ending of all my favorites were great. The entirety of his short stories from The Night Shift were excellent and many of the others that were turned into less than great movies had good endings for me. Christine?? Fantastic ending! But as Brian said, this is a GOT thread and I agree that the ending was really forked up mostly because having Bran out of nowhere as ruler was lame. There are many things that would be debatable about the ending like Dany turning bad or John killing her or Sansa ruling the North or Jaime running for Cercei but I'm not sure there's much debate on the fact that the audience did a collective WTF when Bran was made ruler.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I disagree because for me the story and the ending of all my favorites were great. The entirety of his short stories from The Night Shift were excellent and many of the others that were turned into less than great movies had good endings for me. Christine?? Fantastic ending! But as Brian said, this is a GOT thread and I agree that the ending was really forked up mostly because having Bran out of nowhere as ruler was lame. There are many things that would be debatable about the ending like Dany turning bad or John killing her or Sansa ruling the North or Jaime running for Cercei but I'm not sure there's much debate on the fact that the audience did a collective WTF when Bran was made ruler.


If I was writing the ending (and of course I didn't) I would have written it with the Kingdoms breaking up and the families having loose ties. That would have made more sense to me. But that's just one possible way to do it.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Thinking about it more......writing it that way could have set in motion a great sequel. A couple of hundred years in the future, a big threat from outside of Westeros and someone tries to re-unite the Kindgoms.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> If I was writing the ending (and of course I didn't) I would have written it with the Kingdoms breaking up and the families having loose ties. That would have made more sense to me. But that's just one possible way to do it.


Nah. Just have the Ice King sit on the throne.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

photoshopgrl said:


> I disagree because for me the story and the ending of all my favorites were great. The entirety of his short stories from The Night Shift were excellent and many of the others that were turned into less than great movies had good endings for me. Christine?? Fantastic ending! But as Brian said, this is a GOT thread and I agree that the ending was really forked up mostly because having Bran out of nowhere as ruler was lame. There are many things that would be debatable about the ending like Dany turning bad or John killing her or Sansa ruling the North or Jaime running for Cercei but I'm not sure there's much debate on the fact that the audience did a collective WTF when Bran was made ruler.


Oh, if we're talking about his shorter work, you have a point. With a short story, the ending is everything; there's no room for a bad one. King's short stories generally have great endings. So does GRRM, to get back on topic.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> Oh, if we're talking about his shorter work, you have a point. With a short story, the ending is everything; there's no room for a bad one. King's short stories generally have great endings. So does GRRM, to get back on topic.


Yeah, I didn't say it, but I was thinking of his novels. King's novellas and short stories are generally much more story-driven.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> I still think you guys missed the whole point when I hear this. This was meant to be the end of the GoT both literally and figuratively. Having the next new best/strongest ruler sit on the throne both literally and figuratively was exactly the wrong way to end the show.


So this was the three-eyed raven's plan all along?


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