# All things Buffy



## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

Well, I thought it is time for a new Buffy thread. I belong to the rare species that has never watched Buffy when it aired on T.V. Primarily based on talk here I decided to give it a try on DVD. Heck, after reading that some people still have a SP on their Tivo even though there won't be any more new episodes, I figured there is a good chance I'll get sucked into this show. I don't think I'm quite there yet but I'm starting to enjoy the characters and the storylines.

Here is where I am right now in the series, followed by a few questions:

-- I just finished watching Inca Mummy Girl (episode 4 of season two) where we get introduced to a lead guitarist named Oz. I will be watching episodes 5-8 later this week.

-- questions:

1) Is it just me (or does it change later?) who feels that Cordelia's transition from outcast (from the core group point's of view) to member of the group is somewhat random and sloppy? It seems Cordelia all of a sudden happens to be near the action even though she doesn't exactly want to have anything to do with the "losers." I just don't understand how she becomes part of the group later. Even though I never watched the show before, it is hard to fail to notice that she is going to be a major character.

2) In your opinion, should I start watching Angel in the order it aired on T.V. (in relation to Buffy's original air dates, that is), meaning I start watching the first season of Angel when I start watching the fourth season of Buffy? Or should I watch all seven seasons of Buffy before I jump into Angel?

3) Since a lot of people seem to like season 2 so much, what are your favorite episodes or scenes from that season? Please keep in mind that I'm still in the beginning of the season, so spoiler tags are appreciated for matters concerning the later episodes of season two.


I hope this thread will bring back memories for some of you and provide incentives for newbies to give this show a try!


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## jon777 (May 30, 2002)

I'd recommend watching Season 4 of Buffy with Season 1 of Angel. There are multiple cross-over episodes where it is helpful to know what is going on in the other show to full appreciate the overall picture. I just watched Season 1 of Angel before having watched Season 4 of Buffy and there were a couple of plot points that are better explained by watching both in sequence. Better (but not completely necessary) to do in sequence if you can...


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by peitsche _
> *Well, I thought it is time for a new Buffy thread. I belong to the rare species that has never watched Buffy when it aired on T.V. Primarily based on talk here I decided to give it a try on DVD. Heck, after reading that some people still have a SP on their Tivo even though there won't be any more new episodes, I figured there is a good chance I'll get sucked into this show. I don't think I'm quite there yet but I'm starting to enjoy the characters and the storylines.
> 
> Here is where I am right now in the series, followed by a few questions:
> ...


1) I think Cordy's early arc was to be the Damsel in Distress who comes to rely on the "losers" when she realizes that they are the ones protecting everyone. She's just hanging around with them to save her own skin. ...At first

2) It can't hurt to watch them in the order you're suggesting. There isn't TOO much in teh way or crossovers, but the ones that they have are nice.

3) My favorite Season Two episode is School Hard, whch introduces Spike and Dru. There are some really good episodes later, but, For God's sake, wtch them in order! Just trust me on this one!


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

I also did not watch Buffy when it was on the air, but thankfully my dad is a Buffy nut and I bought him all the Bufy DVDs (along with Angel). I definitely recommend doing season 4 and Angel 1 at the same time to get the flow. I will be doing the same with 5 and Angel 2 once I give him the presents.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Congrats for finally discovering the wonders of the Buffyverse - better late than never. Pound for pound, it may have been the best written and acted show ever. I still miss it (and yes, I am one of the ones who refuses to delete my season pass out of reverence. I also still have the finale saved in my Now Playing section, and will keep it there until S7 comes out on DVD)



> _Originally posted by peitsche _
> *1) Is it just me (or does it change later?) who feels that Cordelia's transition from outcast (from the core group point's of view) to member of the group is somewhat random and sloppy? It seems Cordelia all of a sudden happens to be near the action even though she doesn't exactly want to have anything to do with the "losers." I just don't understand how she becomes part of the group later. Even though I never watched the show before, it is hard to fail to notice that she is going to be a major character.*


I don't believe that Cordelia was originally intended to be part of the Scoobs - it just evolved that way. (Little bit of trivia for you - SMG originally read for the part of Cordy). Charisma Carpenter was tailor-made to play that role, and became very popular with the writers and cast, and eventually, the fans. As such, she got more and more screen time, and the only way to justify it was to make her part of the Scooby Gang.

Without spoiling too much, her transition into full-fledged Scoobydom kind of comes in fits and starts, but it is logical. She is in the wrong place and the wrong time far too often, only to be saved time and again by the Scoobs, and comes to appreciate them. I'm not going to go into the Tao of Cordy or anything (although while browsing in B&N the other day I did see a book on the Philosophy of Buffy. Perusing it, it appeared to be an anthology of academic dissertations on the meaning of life as expressed on the show. A bit scary, if you ask me), but you could argue she starts to find a purpose behind her shallow existence by helping fight evil. All in all, Cordy evolves very significantly and satisfyingly, but it is a long arc that lasts 7 full seasons (thought not necessarily all on BtVS).

*



2) In your opinion, should I start watching Angel in the order it aired on T.V. (in relation to Buffy's original air dates, that is), meaning I start watching the first season of Angel when I start watching the fourth season of Buffy? Or should I watch all seven seasons of Buffy before I jump into Angel?

Click to expand...

*I'd echo the post above - S4 of Buffy and S1 of Angel had quite a bit of cross-over as they were trying to establish Angel as its own show, and thus the crossovers are used to advance the plot on both series. If you are experiencing both for the first time, I would watch them together. I don't have Angel S1 yet, but I would hope the ep quide would indicate where the crossovers are.

*



3) Since a lot of people seem to like season 2 so much, what are your favorite episodes or scenes from that season? Please keep in mind that I'm still in the beginning of the season, so spoiler tags are appreciated for matters concerning the later episodes of season two.

Click to expand...

*As I said above, you haven't even gotten to the good stuff yet. Among most Buffyphiles, S2 and S3 are widely regarded as being the best seasons of the show. All of the seasons had amazing episodes, but it seems as if nearly ep in Seasons 2 and 3 was outstanding.

My favorite S2 episodes start with "Halloween" (ep 2.6, or 18 overall), which starts a string of 5 consecutive very strong eps ("Lie to Me","Dark Age", and "What's My Line" Pts 1 and 2). Then you get "Ted" and "Bad Eggs", which are Monster of the Week (MotW) type eps - fine and all, but not nearly as good as the more plot-advancing ones. Then, the season closes with a bang, 9 out of 10 episodes that are simply amazing (the only weak link is "Go Fish" another MotW, which isn't really that bad. You'll soon learn that the worst Buffy episode is better written than nearly everything else on TV). In particular, "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered ", "Passion", "Killed by Death", and the 2 part finale "Becoming" 1&2 are all incredible hours (well, 42 minutes) of television.


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## Freki (Sep 6, 2002)

I second the recommendation for watching S4 of Buffy concurrently with S1 of Angel. They aired new episodes back to back when they were originally shown, and the crossover episodes will make more sense if they're watched together.

You may have a point about Cordelia's association with the gang being a bit sloppy, though it doesn't really bother me. I chalk it up to Cordelia being shallow enough to be worried about her social status, but having a good heart that won't let her ignore the wierdness now that she knows about it.

Season 2 was a very uneven season for me. It had some of the very best episodes of the entire series, and some of the worst. The story arc for the season was one of the best they ever did, though, and the 2-part season finale is the defining moment of the show. You've got Lie to Me coming up soon, which is one of my favorites, and Halloween was a fun episode. The season really kicks into high gear with the Surprise/Innocence two-parter around episode 12. Avoid spoilers if at all possible, there are some big surprises coming up.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Having watched Season 4 of Buffy and Season 1 of Angel separately, I highly recommend watching them at the same time. I suggest doing the same for Season 5 of Buffy and Season 2 of Angel.

School Hard is almost my favorite of the Season 2 episodes. Go Fish and Becoming (part two) are honorable mentions.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I wouldn't worry too much about the cross-overs between Buffy and Angel--as has been said, it's nice to watch them in the order as originally aired, but you will miss very, very little if you don't.

If you can, great, you'll get a couple of nifty bits, but don't lose any sleep over it!


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Oh, I forgot to add....

I never really cared for the Cordelia character during the second season of Buffy. She'll really blossom into a much more interesting (though not necessarily likeable) character as time passes on the show.

Season 2 was probably one of the weaker ones for me. It has its moments (School Hard is still one of my top 10 episodes), but it's certainly no Season 5 or Season 3.


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

Jeez, now you guys have me again wondering whether I should get into this show. Sounds very addictive.

I'm giving a friend Season 1 on DVD for Xmas - he's a huge fan and has been extolling the virtues of Buffydom to me since the first season. For some reason I just never gave it a shot. I've watched a minute or two while channel surfing but I suppose you need to know the characters to 
really "get it".

Perhaps I'll borrow Season 1 from him after he unwraps it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Skittles _
> *I never really cared for the Cordelia character during the second season of Buffy. She'll really blossom into a much more interesting (though not necessarily likable) character as time passes on the show. *


 Interestingly, I found just the opposite. When she was just a shallow, brainless, self-absorbed twit, she was fine. But as they deepened the character, it only served to emphasize Carpenter's remarkable thespian limitations. The girl *can't act.*


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Medieval Guy _
> *Interestingly, I found just the opposite. When she was just a shallow, brainless, self-absorbed twit, she was fine. But as they deepened the character, it only served to emphasize Carpenter's remarkable thespian limitations. The girl can't act. *


 And see, I thought that (warning, spoilers from Angel)...


Spoiler



Once her character moves out of BtVS/Sunnydale and into Angel/Los Angeles, she's given the chance to become a lot more diverse and faceted... especially by the third season of Angel. She was dreadful in the first season of Angel (moreso than she ever was in Buffy), but once Doyle is out of the show, she gets her chance to shine.

Of course, I'm only barely into the third season of Angel, so I can't speak for anything beyond that.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by scooterboy _
> *Jeez, now you guys have me again wondering whether I should get into this show. Sounds very addictive.
> 
> I'm giving a friend Season 1 on DVD for Xmas - he's a huge fan and has been extolling the virtues of Buffydom to me since the first season. For some reason I just never gave it a shot. I've watched a minute or two while channel surfing but I suppose you need to know the characters to
> ...


 [UMF]If it helps, Amazon.com has a package with Seasons 1 - 4 on DVD for $118... free shipping included. At that price, even if you hate the show, you can still sell it used on eBay and just about get all your money back  [/UMF]


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## sschwart (Apr 4, 2001)

I'll echo that you should watch Angel 1 and Buffy 4 at the same time. There's a lot more that can be picked up on, and you can appreciate some of the nuances that otherwise you don't see. My favorite from season 2 is Becoming.

And as for Charisma... She sometimes seems to be an incredible actress. Othertimes she seems to be a terrible one. Getting her character into the scooby gang may have been a little forced, but it's rewarding to have her there in the end.

And scooterboy, I really do recommend it. Borrow the DVD's from him and watch a few hours. You will get hooked


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Though it's nice to have the DVD's, you can catch all of the eps, in order for the most part, on FX. 

I thought season 2 is really when the series really began to shine. I liked it far better than season 5 (I thought the big bad on Season 5 was kinda lame).


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Damn! First I'm UMF'ed by a coffeemaker yesterday over in the Happy Hour. Now, I'm getting Buffy UMF'ed in Now Playing! I never got into Buffy while it was on - I was in law school during the early seasons and really didn't have TV time available. But I'm feeling myself getting sucked in. I've got a friend who's been collecting the DVD's since they started rolling out. I think I'm going to have to start borrowing.


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Peter000 _
> *Though it's nice to have the DVD's, you can catch all of the eps, in order for the most part, on FX. *


Any idea when they'll start from the beginning again? Or should I set up a WL for "Buffy Pilot"?


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## cello (Sep 12, 2002)

I don't know if the description says pilot - does anybody know? The title of the pilot is "welcome to the hellmouth" though. Be careful - I think that it's a 2-parter (with both parts having the same name), and you'll want to catch both. 

FX can be a bit weird. Sometimes the guide data will get really off. When I was trying to record all the episodes, I sometimes set it to record all the showings in a day, even if they weren't listed as being the right episode. Very frustrating.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

There are only three "important" S1 Buffy episodes: the first one, the last one and "Angel". I loved the characters but the remaining stories were kind of weak. Season 2 is when the show really took off for me.

It's your money, but I'd just record the two daily hours on F/X at whatever point they are. It'll eventually loop back to the beginning. That's how I got into the show. I never saw a "live" episode until the beginning of season 6.


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## rickertk (Jan 23, 2002)

Given that they are at the end of Season 3 now, and at 2 episodes a day, probably about 2.5 months or so? The pilot episode is titled "Welcome to the Hellmouth", which probably gives you some fairly good keywords for a wishlist.

Keith


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

One thing re the FX reruns - they are often edited/cut differently than the original ones were when aired. Most jarring is the S6 musical episode "Once More With Feeling" - it was longer than an hour when originally aired, but it was cut down quite a bit when the repeat aired.


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## cello (Sep 12, 2002)

that's a good point. A lot of what they cut out are the little nuances that give the show character, for the sake of commercials. I also find the sound to be really off on FX's airings - something I find for almost everything I've watched on that channel. Definitely watch the DVDs if you can get your hands on them. And if you buy the first 4 seasons with the Amazon deal and decide you don't like them, I'm sure you could find someone around these parts to take them off your hands.


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## tapegasser (Dec 6, 2003)

I've mention this before, season 4 of 'Angel' is a jaw-dropper. Cordy is the only thing that blows! I really can't stand that actress or character.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by tapegasser _
> *I've mention this before, season 4 of 'Angel' is a jaw-dropper. Cordy is the only thing that blows! I really can't stand that actress or character. *


Agreed. I'm absolutely loving season 1 of Angel. I don't hate Cordy though. I didn't like her on Buffy but really enjoy her on Angel.

Season 1 of Angel has been worth it thus far if for nothing more than Angel's dance interlude in "Expecting". I had to instant replay that several times.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

> _Originally posted by ClutchBrake _
> *Season 1 of Angel has been worth it thus far if for nothing more than Angel's dance interlude in "Expecting". I had to instant replay that several times.  *


 Wait 'til he saves the puppy!


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## Bill Reeves (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ClutchBrake _
> *Season 1 of Angel has been worth it thus far if for nothing more than Angel's dance interlude in "Expecting". I had to instant replay that several times.  *


That was a classic, but my favorite is late in Season 2. "Numfar, do the dance of joy!"


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## ccwf (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by cello _
> *I don't know if the description says pilot - does anybody know? The title of the pilot is "welcome to the hellmouth" though.*





> _Originally posted by rickertk _
> *The pilot episode is titled "Welcome to the Hellmouth", which probably gives you some fairly good keywords for a wishlist.*


 Again (as mentioned in past Buffy threads), to nitpick a little, "Welcome to the Hellmouth" is the premiere episode. Buffy also had a separate pilot (which is similar to the premiere episode), which the BBC Buffy site calls "The Pilot", which Julie Benz calls "The Pilot Presentation" and "The Presentation", and which many fan sites call "The Buffy Pilot" and "The Unaired Pilot" and similar names. Here is some video of Julie Benz discussing the pilot.


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## firerose818 (Jul 21, 2003)

I have to agree that "School Hard" is a great episode, but "Becoming, Part 2" is probably my favorite episode of the season. But I thought season 5 (and especially "Fool for Love") was the best season of all. So, you have a lot of great Buffy to look forward to!

I never got into Angel though - maybe I will have to start when it hits syndication. (or is it there already?)

-Rose


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## ccwf (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by firerose818 _
> *I never got into Angel though - maybe I will have to start when it hits syndication. (or is it there already?)*


 Yes, Angel is in syndication.


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## FuzzyDolly (Dec 29, 2002)

Ahhh... Buffy! What a fantastic show! I'd love to see a spinoff with Willow in England. I think "Once more with feeling" is one of my favorite episodes. If for no other reason, than to see Anya sing about bunnies. FYI, they sell the songs on a CD. "Hush" is another one of my favs. Also, the book DreadPirate Rob mentioned " Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosphy" is a great book. There's a few others in the series. There's one about the Matrix (fantastic), one about the Simpsons, and one about the Lord of the Rings (last two not read yet.) If you're looking for other good Buffy books, pick up "Seven Seasons of Buffy : Science fiction and fantasy writers discuss their favorite show", and "Fighting the Forces: What's at stake in Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Really shouldn't forget the script and song book to "Once more with Feeling." I miss my Buffy! Hopefully I'll find the new season in my stocking this year!


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Taken from today's IMDB news. As far as Sarah Michelle Gellar making an appearance on Angel....



> Sarah Michelle Gellar has further broken the hearts of Buffy The Vampire Slayer fans - she has turned down the chance to recreate her famous TV character in episodes of spin-off series Angel. Buffy creator Joss Whedon had offered the actress the chance to return to TV in 2004 to play Buffy in two special episodes of Angel, but she has turned him down. A disappointed Whedon says, "She feels it's not the right time."


My thought is, give it time. After the Scooby Doo movie franchise dies down, she'll come back.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Skittles _
> *My thought is, give it time. After the Scooby Doo movie franchise dies down, she'll come back. *


 My hunch is that 25 years from now, she'll be like Richard Hatch, looking back at his one moment of glory and devoting his life to pathetic attempts to recreate it...


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Medieval Guy _
> *My hunch is that 25 years from now, she'll be like Richard Hatch, looking back at his one moment of glory and devoting his life to pathetic attempts to recreate it...  *


 A little harsh don't you think?  
After 7 years of Buffy I can understand her not doing cartwheels to do it again, even for 2 episodes of Angel. When the proper amount of time has passed I'm sure she'll be happy to finally close the book by doing a couple of shows for Joss. If she's lucky he'll kill her off.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TampaThunder _
> *If she's lucky he'll kill her off. *


 Yeah, but.... (warning, spoilers for anyone that hasn't finished Buffy)


Spoiler



She's already died twice. The only certainty about Buffy is that death isn't final, *especially* in Buffy's case.


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

One of the reasons I wasn't initially drawn to the series was that I don't find SMG that attractive or that great of an actress. I've seen her in a few movies and was never impressed. She should keep her Buffy options open IMO.


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## zaknafein (Jul 17, 2001)

Without spoiling anything....the last half of season 2 was unbelievable.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by scooterboy _
> *One of the reasons I wasn't initially drawn to the series was that I don't find SMG that attractive or that great of an actress.*


I have always thought SMG's acting was easily the weakest link of the show. Much like Ben Affleck in Kevin Smith movies though, it doesn't really matter. The writing is so good even poor acting transcends it.


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## cpalma (Sep 29, 2003)

Seeing that there are no soap fans on this message board, I must add that before Buffy she was on All MY Children and actually won a daytime emmy. Now, again, non-soap fans may say, "Who cares, soap actors can't act either". I disagree. There are actors (though I'll agree few and far between) that can act circles against anyone out there. I think SMG is a good actress but chooses bad roles (Buffy excepted).

Back to Buffy. I watched all of Buffy and all of Angel. I thoroughly miss BTVS on television. I'm having Angel withdrawal right now.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

cpalma, since you're talking about spoilers from this season of Angel, would you please add a


Spoiler



tag? Some of the latecomers to Angel (myself included) aren't watching the most recent season yet and don't want it spoiled.


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## cpalma (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Skittles _
> *cpalma, since you're talking about spoilers from this season of Angel, would you please add a
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I sincerely apologize. I'm a spoiler hater!! I just didn't think Cordy's ...
was a spoiler.


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## sschwart (Apr 4, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Skittles _
> *Yeah, but.... (warning, spoilers for anyone that hasn't finished Buffy)
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I still argue that it's 3. She flatlined in season 6, which is as dead as she was in season 1. My count is 1 or 3, but not 2 





> _Originally posted by Bill Reeves_
> *That was a classic, but my favorite is late in Season 2. "Numfar, do the dance of joy!"*


I'm not sure you know, but Numfar was played by Joss Whedon himself. Just one of those little bits o trivia. Joss was a demon... a dancing demon. No, something isn't right there.


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

Wow, a spoiler free buffy thread. :up:


I was UMFed in to watching buffy by one who shall not be named, and I'm glad I started. This is an amazing show.


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## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

I got the seasons 1-4 in the Amazon special a while back. I've been making my husband watch them with me from time to time. He hates commercials, so he rarely watches tv (and doesn't have the patience most times to ff through them on the tivo). But since these are on DVD, it isn't an issue. We watch them when we have time.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Agatha Mystery _
> *I got the seasons 1-4 in the Amazon special a while back.*


 I'm trying desperately to resist the UMF for that right now. $118 is just a steal. I'm hoping they'll be under the Christmas tree from Santa this year.

If they show up in my Gold Box before then, though, I may not be able to resist anymore.


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## brahamt (Oct 24, 2002)

I never really thought Charisma was good or bad as an actress



Spoiler



but when she disappears for a while in S3 of Angel, I have to admit that I missed her



I have never liked SMG as an actress, and she was the #1 reason I avoided the show when it was on. Of course, the writing and the other characters were the reason the show was great. That said, SMG did have some great moments in the show, though at the end of the day, Buffy could have been anybody AFAIAC.

Best Eps for me in S2 were School Hard (of course), What's My Line 1 and 2, Surprise and Innocence (I believe this is a two parter with different ep titles), and Becoming 1 and 2. I was going to leave becoming off the list, but upon further reflection, I decided to leave it.

One thing you may notice is that these episodes are mostly Buffy mythology eps, which were my favorites.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

While I think SMG is not a good actor, they certainly built the role (and the show) around her limitations, which is fine. They did the same thing with Cordy, intitially, but when the character began to expand, she quickly expanded beyond Carpenter's ability, and became annoying (that is, annoying not on purpose).


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## Thaed (Nov 25, 2003)

What? No Xander fans? "The Zeppo" and "The Replacement" were classics!

I'm just starting season five and am well into Angel 2. I got hooked on Angel last seaons (4) when I was watching the dreadful "Birds of Prey" and it was off one night and I saw Angel instead. Hooked me totally. Season 4 of Angel was riveting. I can't remember the last time I arranged my life around a show so much. Of course now, I never have to do that again.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I bought my TiVo so I wouldn't have to keep rushing home to see Buffy and Angel.
I was so annoyed at missing Superstar in it's original WB airings both times......


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## rexdart (Apr 9, 2002)

Oh man that Amazon deal....

not to be a bummer (it has a happy ending), but my better half and I are splitting up - yeah, wah - she has always been rather the rolleye one for Buffy. Now, all four seasons at once, my own place....

Buffython '04!



I believe I am most definitely coming out ahead in the end!


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## TiVaholic (Nov 29, 2000)

> _Originally posted by cpalma _
> *I sincerely apologize. I'm a spoiler hater!! I just didn't think Cordy's ...
> was a spoiler.  *


You still didn't edit your original post...I don't care, but I know newcomers will, as I would have if I weren't up to date.


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## cello (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rexdart _
> *my better half and I are splitting up - yeah, wah - she has always been rather the rolleye one for Buffy.*


well that's as good a reason as any to split up.

just kidding of course.


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## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

I am another one who got Tivo for Buffy. 

And I am a Xander fan. Tried and true friend he is. I wish I had someone like that.


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## ccwf (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Thaed _
> *"The Zeppo" and "The Replacement" were classics!*


 
*Xander:* You're in a band. That's like a business-class ticket to cool with complimentary mojo after take-off. I gotta learn an instrument. Is it hard to play guitar?
*Oz:* Not the way I play it.


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## mrmike (May 2, 2001)

I miss Oz. Wit so dry you need a camel to cross it.


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## FuzzyDolly (Dec 29, 2002)

Anya and Tara rock! Although there will always be a special place in my heart for Willow!


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

> _Originally posted by ClutchBrake _
> *I have always thought SMG's acting was easily the weakest link of the show. Much like Ben Affleck in Kevin Smith movies though, it doesn't really matter. The writing is so good even poor acting transcends it. *


You did see "The Body", right? Or "Normal Again" or "Dead Things" or "Becoming" or "Forever" or "I WIll Remember You"?

Okay, so that last one was an "Angel" ep...she was still brilliant in it, and in all the eps listed and in dozens that I haven't bother to list.

Color me stunned.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Agreed... hearing Joss' commentary on the DVD version of "The Body" showed just how good an actor she can be... they made her do that whole first few segments, up until Giles shows up, in order. Joss said essentially that she put herself through an emotional wringer on that episode, and it shows.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I think SMG is a wonderful actress. She may never get another chance at another vehicle that was perfect for her talents, though. She's on the road to oblivion if she keeps making crappy movie choices.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

> _Originally posted by sschwart _
> *
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I think the flatline was due to Willow's electrical interferance.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Lori _
> *You did see "The Body", right? Or "Normal Again" or "Dead Things" or "Becoming" or "Forever" or "I WIll Remember You"?
> 
> Okay, so that last one was an "Angel" ep...she was still brilliant in it, and in all the eps listed and in dozens that I haven't bother to list.
> ...


Yup, I've seen every episode and am working my way through Angel right now.

I consider her an average actress.


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## Thaed (Nov 25, 2003)

I think one has to consider that she pulled off a very successful show for 7 seasons. If she were as weak as you say, it would not have lasted after it's first season. She has a lot of charisma. I agree, though, that BFS was the perfect vehicle for her. I have not read much on the topic, but how could there not be a second Buffy movie in the works at some point?


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I started watching Buffy about a quarter of the way into Season two and watched it until it went off the air. I watched Angel for the first half a season, then I stopped and I've caught some episodes here and there and the last half of the fourth season but I don't find it half as interesting as Buffy.

My favorite Season 2 episode is easily Becoming (parts 1 and 2). I cry every time. Plus there are some of the greatest Spike moments in those two episodes.

Other favorite seasons twos:

School Hard: the infamous introduction of the greatest couple in Buffy history.

Halloween: if you can ignore SMG's atrocious accent (costume said English lady but accent said southern belle) the episode is fun and features some great Willow moments.

Suprise/Innocence: How could someone have not mentioned these yet? The emotional turning point of the season.

I Only Have Eyes for You: Although I was ambivalent originally, it has grown on me after seeing it a few times.


My favorite episodes throughout the series:

Season One:
none stand out particularly

Season Two:
Becoming Parts 1 and 2

Season Three:
Homecoming (Slayerfest '99 is just fun to say  )
Lover's Walk
The Wish
Helpless
The Zeppo 
Dopelgangland

Season Four:
The Harsh Light of Day
Fear, Itself
Pangs (Spike is especially classic in this one)
Hush
This Year's Girl/Who Are You
Superstar
Restless

Season Five:
The Replacement
The Body
Intervention
The Gift

Season Six:
Life Serial
Once More With Feeling
Tabula Rasa
Normal Again

Season Seven:
Same Time, Same Place
Help
Selfless
Conversations With Dead People

I have a hard time rating the season because some of them had great episodes but really missed on others. Especially seasons six and seven, who had some outstanding single epsiodes (the only Buffy episode that ever left me genuinely creeped out was Conversations..), but lacked greatly as a whole. Season three is probably the strongest on the whole, with seasons two and five just behind it. Season four is hard because the show had to figure out how to work once they had graduated. 

I don't have Season five yet, as it is on my Christmas list, but if someone doesn't pick it up for me, I'll buy it the week after


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## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

FX is running a marathon from Season 1 Episode 1 on January 1.


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## ccwf (Dec 30, 2001)

"The Wish" and "Doppelgängland" are two of my favorites. It would have been wonderful to see more building on that continuity. 
*Giles:* I have to believe in a better world.
 
*Anyanka:* (quote in spoiler white for those not knowing who Anyanka is)


Spoiler



For a thousand years I wielded the powers of The Wish. I brought ruin to the heads of unfaithful men. I brought forth destruction and chaos for the pleasure of the lower beings. I was feared and worshipped across the mortal globe. And now I'm stuck at Sunnydale High. Mortal. Child. And I'm flunking math.



 
*Willow:* No, it's fine. I'm Old Reliable.
*Xander:* She just means, you know, the geyser. You're like a geyser of fun that goes off at regular intervals.
*Willow:* That's Old Faithful.
*Xander:* Isn't that the dog that, that the guy had to shoot&#8230;
*Willow:* That's Old Yeller.
*Buffy:* Xander, I beg you not to help me&#8230;.
*Willow:* Yeah, that's me. Reliable/Dog/Geyser Person.
 
*Willow:* Well, look at me. I'm all fuzzy.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ccwf _
> *"The Wish" and "Doppelgängland" are two of my favorites. It would have been wonderful to see more building on that continuity. *


 I loved those eps. 

Some of my faves were (from no particular seasonal order)
Nightmares
Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered
The Zeppo (or any other Xander-centric ep)
Hush
Once more With Feeling (I still sing some of the songs to myself)
Prophecy Girl

Season 2 was probably my favorite overall, now that I think about it. So many great moments. The show hit its stride with the characters and relationships. And it still had that exciting "new show" smell.


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## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

I think SMG is a sensational actress - at least when playing Buffy. She emotes extremely well, and can do more with a twitch or a wrinkle than pretty much anyone else. There's a lot of subtlety in her portrayal which is easily missed.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

SMG was great in Buffy. Her acting job in The Body is nothing short of riveting, and I consider it the pinacle of her performances in BtVS.

Everything outside of Buffy, though? Meh.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

wow, based on the replies and number of views, Buffy has still quite a following here...

I wish I had made more progress (Frodo and his fellows got in the way) but I just saw Halloween last night. I liked it a lot better than an average Monster of the week episode (like say, Reptile Boy)...

I have to admit that I nodded off during School Hard (again, Frodo gets the blame) but Fox is showing it again this Saturday (12/27)...I guess I'll have to pay closer attention to Spike and his gang when I watch it again...thanks DreadPirateRob, I am looking forward to the next episodes after Halloween...

and Scooterboy, while I'm not sure yet about SMG's acting skills, she sure looks attractive to me (how many outfits per day does she wear?)

thanks everybody for using the spoilertags since I "haven't even gotten to the good stuff yet" (to quote DreadPirateRob)...

last, I know I'll sound like a complete moron asking this (but it won't matter much at this point): what the heck is UMF?


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

UMF = Unseen Mystical Forces

The UMF makes us by toys.


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## Monolyth710 (Jan 31, 2003)

My wife and I loved the musical. We still play the songs from the cd I burned off the vhs copy of the show.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

I think I'm really starting to like this...just saw 'What's my line'...two parts, two hours (o.k., 84 min.), two slayers, two and a half love stories (don't know about Xander and Cordelia yet)...favorite line: "hey, that's me favorite shirt...it's me only shirt!"....


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## Thaed (Nov 25, 2003)

We watched "Blood Ties" and "Crush" last night and are well on our way through season 5. Honestly, Buffy is the best series since Star Trek TNG. No other show captivates both my wife and I to sit on our big blue chair-and-a-half together like Buffy. I mean, right now my TiVo is filled with stuff that I like (Serial Exp. Lain, .Hack/sign, Xplay, Justice League, Teen Titans) and stuff for our kids (Tweenies, Dora, Sesame Street) but there is very little that we'll both watch. We've stooped to watching "The Simple Life" but there is only so much one can take of Paris Hilton, really. The last recent show that really held both of us to the tube was "Battlestar Galactica". When that becomes a series, we will be very happy!


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I finally gave in and figured I should start giving Buffy a try (I was out of the country when it started airing, and never got into it when I got back). Over the weekend, I Bittorrented the entire first season. Now to start watching . . .


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Monolyth710 _
> *My wife and I loved the musical. We still play the songs from the cd I burned off the vhs copy of the show.
> *


 Get the CD.  It's worth it!
Once more with Feeling


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## FuzzyDolly (Dec 29, 2002)

I really loved "Once more with Feeling." It's the oldest recording on my Tivo. Been there over a year. I loved Anya's song about Bunnies. I loved Giles' comment about the police taking "Witness Arias." I love the duet with Giles and Tara. I just love the whole episode. I watch it about once a week.


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

I've only seen up to what FX broadcast yesterday morning, but am I the only one who thinks we need to see Spike as a British glam rocker?


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by whoknows55 _
> *I've only seen up to what FX broadcast yesterday morning, but am I the only one who thinks we need to see Spike as a British glam rocker? *


 James Marsters has his own band, actually. 

From what I've heard from my Buffy Buddy who saw them in L.A. a few months ago, they're not that stellar.


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Skittles _
> *James Marsters has his own band, actually.
> 
> From what I've heard from my Buffy Buddy who saw them in L.A. a few months ago, they're not that stellar. *


Yeah, but i'm pretty sure that TV is not ral and that James Marsters is not actually the vampire Spike.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

just saw a few episodes that I really liked. for example, John Ritter as Buffy's Mom's boyfriend, Buffy turning 17, and Oz turning into a werewolf...I have to say, the show keeps surprising me...I also loved how Xander helped Larry to come out of the closet...


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

I finally finished watching Season 2 and I have to say I am now officially sucked into this show...I have a few questions about the very end but I don't want to ruin it for me and hear any spoilers from season 3 and on...maybe I just didn't get it and you can answer it without revealing anything...but if these things get answered in the next season then just tell me that and I'll be happy to find out myself...

1) why did she kill Angel after Willow's magic worked and he turned "good" again?

2) why did Angel's "death" at the end stop the power of the demon and the world didn't end?

3) am I just not getting it?


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## GameGuru (Dec 12, 2003)

Spoiler



Ok it has been a while since I seen the episode but if I remember right Angelus opened the portal and the only way to close it was the blood of the one who opened it. He became Angel at that instance thanks to Willow but Buffy has to close the portal and to do it she now had to kill Angel instead of Angelus. I think I am right. If not someone here will know.


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## ccwf (Dec 30, 2001)

That's basically right. Giles and Whistler give that information. Angelus sort of confirms it when he says


Spoiler



Acathla Mundatus sum pro te necavi. Sanguinem meum pro te effundam quo me dignum esse demonstrem.


 Whistler specifically says


Spoiler



Angel's the key. His blood will open the door to Hell. Acathla opens his big mouth, creates a vortex. Then only Angel's blood will close it. One blow will send 'em both back to Hell. But I strongly suggest that you get there before that happens, 'cause the faster you kill Angel, the easier it's gonna be on you.


 *Spike:* The demon wakes up, and wackiness ensues.
*Drusilla:* He will swallow the world.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

> _Originally posted by ccwf _
> *That's basically right. Giles and Whistler give that information. Angelus sort of confirms it when he says
> 
> 
> ...


Spoiler to Season 5 finale:


Spoiler



Interesting parallel between the season 2 finale and the season 5 finale... in both blood opens a vortex, and only the blood will close the vortex. Never really paid that close attention to it until you quoted Whistler there.


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## larboz (Feb 2, 2004)

I started out watching Buffy on DVD and am now catching up on tivo with fx and loving it although I notices that they do edit a few things here and there for example in once more with feeling they cut the very begining with everyone in the house and they also seemed to skip dawns ballet

as for the once more with feeling episode I saw it like a week ago and still have songs in my head. I cant wait to get the DVD set

I loved every song in that episode. they all get stuck in the head. 

my only concern is that they are going to show the 7th season on fx. I dont want to watch the whole series again for the last season that would drive me nuts.

Season 2 is a really good season probably the best I have seen so far.

season 4 is ok (no spoilers there)

3 is my second fav

I find with the dvd's there is something about watching all the episodes back to back to back... messes with the head a little its like watching a 22 hour movie.


hope you enoy it as much as me and my wife are. I cant wait to see the last season.

I love an intelligent sci-fi (fantasy?) show... any other suggestions other than Angel?


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## ccwf (Dec 30, 2001)

The original broadcast of Once More, With Feeling had a running time of ~1:08 with about seventeen minutes of commercials. They can't reshow the full length episode in a normal commercial slot since that would leave only nine minutes for commercials. And that premier showing _was_ advertised as the one and only time we would get to see the full length episode on TV.


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## ccwf (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by larboz _
> *I love an intelligent sci-fi (fantasy?) show... any other suggestions other than Angel?*


 It's not like there's a lot of science fiction, period. There were a number of shows listed in lordargent's thread Where has all the sci-fi gone? and whitson77's Sci-Fi shows???? In addition to those lists, I think the only significant new non-kiddie SF series is 課長王子 _(Legend of Black Heaven)._ Also, the _Patlabor 3_ movie is currently showing on cable. (Heyit's linked to a TV series. )

For those who like old school-style kids shows, there's 鉄腕アトム _(Astro Boy)._ And last week, _Jackie Chan Adventures_ had a good time-travel episode (J2 with plot and music reminiscent of _T2_).


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by larboz _
> *
> I love an intelligent sci-fi (fantasy?) show... any other suggestions other than Angel? *


Firefly!


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Well, I watched the entire first season in two days - and loved it. Then I started BitTorrenting Season 2, but I gave up after a week of failing to get the download done. So I relented and bought the Seasons 1-4 boxed set from Amazon. I've watched the first 4 episodes of Season 2 now (my pace has slowed - my wife was out of town for the first season marathon but she's back now and so far she's refused to watch with me).

So far, I think my favorite ep is Inca Mummy Girl, but posts here suggest that the best is yet to come. I'm totally hooked.

Next step will be to rip these DVD's down to DiVX files to view through my Connected DVD Player - it'll be nice to have every ep at my fingertips without having to switch disks. I just wish it didn't take so darn long to encode them (using AutoGK). It tempts me mightily to upgrade my computer too. I did a couple already, but left the quality settings up too high and the Connected DVD Player couldn't handle the bandwidth.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AJRitz _
> *So far, I think my favorite ep is Inca Mummy Girl, but posts here suggest that the best is yet to come. I'm totally hooked.*


It gets much, much better. Trust me. If you liked Inca Mummy Girl, you may want to cover your furniture in plastic, because the middle of S2 through the end of S3 will blow your mind...


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

It gets so much better than Inca Mummy Girl. That episode is probably somwhere in the lower 25% of all the episodes for me.

I still envy people watching Season 2 for the first time. They really kick that season into gear and the second half of season 2 was the biggest rollercoaster ride of any season, culminating in a gut wrenching final 2 episodes that are quite possible the highlights of the series.

Off on a different tangent I am going through my season three DVDs and just finished rewatching The Zeppo. That episode is climbing higher on my all time favorite list. It was brilliant and hilarious!


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## ccwf (Dec 30, 2001)

The Zeppo is definitely one of my favorites.

*Xander:* You're in a band. That's like a business-class ticket to cool with complimentary mojo after take-off. I gotta learn an instrument. Is it hard to play guitar?
*Oz:* Not the way I play it.

*Xander:* But gee, Mr. White, if Clark and Lois get all the good stories, I'll never be a good reporter.
*Giles:* Hmm?
*Xander:* Jimmy Olsen jokes are pretty much gonna be lost on you, huh?

*Willow:* Occasionally, I'm callous and strange.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

If you are into the supernatural, then try Charmed.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I think what I liked so much about Inca Mummy Girl was the parts that developed Xander's character and his relationship with Willow (I'm a big Alysson Hanningan fan).


Spoiler



Willow walking into the Library behind Xander as Xander explains to Buffy how Willow is undatable.
Xander asking the IMG, "You're not a praying mantis are you?" "Uh, never mind."
Xander being established as the bad date magnet.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

> _Originally posted by AJRitz _
> *(I'm a big Alysson Hanningan fan). *


Who isn't? Get in the long line of Willow/Alysson fans here on the boards.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Maui _
> *Who isn't? Get in the long line of Willow/Alysson fans here on the boards. *


Y'all do know that her new NBC show has been revealed, don't you? It is called Home and Hardware and the story revolves around a sister and brother who have not spoken for 18 months. Alyson will be starring, Eric Christian Olsen (Get Real, Dumb and Dumberer) will be co-starring, and David Schwimmer will be directing the pilot.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

Nope - didn't know that. Thanks for the update!


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Excellent - and I've got plenty of room for new season passes after the hatchet fell on so many of this past seasons shows.

I watched eps 5-8 of Season 2 last night. You all were right - it just keeps getting better and better.



Spoiler



I loved that in Lie To Me when Buffy and Ford are talking about what she's up to she specifically mentions practicing "ambush tactics" - precisely the practice that helps her escape the trap he helped set for her.


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Maui _
> *Who isn't? Get in the long line of Willow/Alysson fans here on the boards. *


Goth Willow :drool:


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Home on a "snow day" yesterday - I finished Season 2. WOW! The more I watch, the more I'm disappointed that I missed it the first time around. Though there's a definite benefit to watching episodes back-to-back-to-back. I would've gone crazy waiting seven days between Surprise and Innocence or between Becoming Parts 1 & 2. I've just gotten the first couple episodes of Season 3 in. The Scooby group dynamics are shifting big time. This is going to be an interesting season. A few spoiler-worthy comments:


Spoiler



I really like Xander's character up to this point, but he's starting to piss me off. The attitude toward Angel is one thing, but he's way too comfortable with lying to his friends on a regular basis. And the love-hate thing between he and Cordy is getting annoying. Get over it already. Either put aside the beauty and the beast pretension and get on with it or break up. I like that Buffy didn't get a free pass upon her return from the lost summer in LA. She had to account for herself to her friends and family and do the work to repair those relationships. In "Anne" it was established early on that time in the Demon dimension moves much more slowly than time in the Earthly dimension. But when Buffy and the others returned to the Earthly dimension, they hadn't aged appreciably and the timline on Earth hadn't really moved ahead. I know they only spent a few hours there, but shouldn't that have been at least a few months later on Earth?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

> _Originally posted by AJRitz _
> *Home on a "snow day" yesterday - I finished Season 2. WOW! The more I watch, the more I'm disappointed that I missed it the first time around. Though there's a definite benefit to watching episodes back-to-back-to-back. I would've gone crazy waiting seven days between Surprise and Innocence or between Becoming Parts 1 & 2. I've just gotten the first couple episodes of Season 3 in. The Scooby group dynamics are shifting big time. This is going to be an interesting season. *


 Speaking of Scooby dynamics... just wait till you start watching Season 6. 

It's annoyed me throughout that Xander has been obnoxious about everything to do with his friends' personal lives.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I know what you mean about Xander Doug, but in Season 1 and the first part of Season 2, it was pretty much normal high school boy stuff. Leaving the specifics somewhat eliptical to avoid needing spoiler tags: Not being able to see his childhood friend as a "girl", maintaining a low-simmer crush on the hot new girl -- those things were pretty normal. Even having some jealousy toward Buffy's "boyfriend" made sense. But by the end of Season 2 Xander is doing things that he KNOWS are incredibly hurtful to Buffy. At the same time, he's in this bizarre relationship of his own with what amounts to the anti-Buffy. And he seems to have become downright mean to Willow at times. I keep waiting for someone to just slap him upside the head and point out, in great detail, what an ass he's become.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

> _Originally posted by AJRitz _
> *I keep waiting for someone to just slap him upside the head and point out, in great detail, what an ass he's become. *


 It might be said that this happens in season 6, but it's kinda subtle. He remains generally true to season 1-5's Xander though, at least so far... 3 more episodes to watch.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

AJRitz:

To answer the question you asking in your spoiler:



Spoiler



In Anne, the demon world time moved extremely slow compared to the regular world. So for one year that passes in the demon world, maybe only one minute passes in the human world. So if Buffy was only down there for a few hours, then less then a second may have passed in teh human world. The boyfriend of Lily's was found dead from old age. Meaning, he spent maybe sixty years in the demon world while only maybe twenty-four hours had passed in the human world.

I think you just had the timing backwards :0)


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Well, I was sick with the flu from Saturday through Monday. It royally sucked, except that I did get to watch all of Season 3 and start Season 4 of Buffy. I decided to just steam ahead without worrying about the Angel crossovers - I couldn't wait. First, let me say WOW. The only thing that keeps me from being mad that I didn't watch this when it was on in the first place is that I'm not sure I could have tolerated waiting 7 days between episodes. The last episode that I've seen is "Beer Bad" - cracked me up!


Spoiler



Cave-girl Buffy was oddly hot! And Willow was great in the confrontation with Parker - playing along and then, "How gullible do you think I am?" Go Willow! I'm glad that Xander is becoming a bit less annoying. Apparently his abortive trek across America did him some good.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by AJRitz _
> *"Beer Bad" - cracked me up!*


Well, we have finally found the one person who liked that episode!


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Agreed on Beer Bad. There were good moments in the episode... unfortunately the theme of the episode as a whole is anvil-icious, from the title on down... beer turns people into neanderthals.

I personally think that the episode "Bad Eggs" was FAR worse of an episode than "Beer Bad" was.


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## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

Hey, I LOVED "Bad Eggs"!


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I like "Beer Bad" precisely because it was a nothing but fun episode. No major plot or character development (other than a very minor confirmation of Buffy's continued struggles to adjust to college life and finding an excuse for the non-collegian Xander to hang around), no real "bad guy". Forget "theme" - this one wasn't about theme. It was just fun.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Okay, I'm just over 1/3 of the way through Season 4 now, and a couple of things about Pangs really bug me:



Spoiler



1. Why would Spike turn to Buffy, of all people, when he was unable to feed and essentially defenseless? He's supposed to be some big bad tough guy who's offed two slayers in his "deathtime". Why wouldn't he just keep talking tough back with his own gang, suck up to Harmony, and let her bring him relatively fresh but already dead victims to stay fat and happy on?
2. Once Spike does show up, why don't they stake him? Sure, he has some info for them. But so far he's tried to kill Buffy at least three times, kidnapped Willow once (and would have killed her this time, if he had been capable), bitten Joyce, the list goes on and on. Get what info you can out of him and then get on with it.



I have to admit though, even as obvious as it was now in retrospect, Xander's closing line in Pangs almost made me do a spit take last night.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

wow AJRitz, you are marching along relentlessly...I am taking in the first season of Alias before diving back into Buffy's circle in season 3....but I'm glad I have something to look forward to...


btw, I think some people are taking Xander's character too seriously...I always just viewed him as a goofball...but then I've only seen two seasons so far....


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## Thaed (Nov 25, 2003)

I'm with you on Xander as goofball, but then in Season 6 he, well, you'll find out.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Yup, end of S6 is a doozy.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I had to bump this thread back up, as I finished watching Season 4 last week, and I'm now waiting impatiently for Amazon to deliver Season 5 (damned free SuperSaver shipping - I knew I should have bit the bullet and paid for overnight delivery .

All I can say is that this is a remarkably well-constructed series, both in terms of individual episodes building a cohesive and integrated season and then each season building on the one before. Just wonderful television. The way I see it:



Spoiler



Season One - Introduces the concept of the slayer. The focus is mostly on vampires, including the "Big Bad" of the season being a vampire. Buffy is already recognized as a bit of a different kind of slayer, in that she has a group of friends who are involved in her "work", instead of being a lone warrior. The battle here is almost purely physical.

Season Two - A little more metaphysical. The "Big Bad" may technically be Angelus/Acathla, but it really is Buffy herself. The Slayer needs to be able to batter more than just vampires - demons can be even nastier. Can she overcome her need for the group and her feelings for Angel to do what a Slayer must do? The group has also developed. They're not so much hangers-on now - they've developed roles in the process (especially Willow). The key to the battle is emotional instead of physical.

Season Three - Buffy is no longer bringing the pain - instead it is being brought to her. Even those whom Buffy thinks are there to help her often hurt her - Cordelia wishes she had never come to town, Faith becomes an enemy instead of an ally, in order to save Angel (who she already knows she's losing in the long term) Buffy has to give up herself. Finally, Buffy has to bring everyone back together in order to defeat an ever-bigger Big Bad - this team a full-fledged Demon. And this time "everyone" is even bigger than just the Scooby gang. The key to the battle now is not just emotional and physical, but also philosophical (note the difference between Faith's and Buffy's idea of what the Slayer's role is, and the Council's refusal to assist in the "healing" of a vampire, regardless of the vampire's willingness to work toward the same goals as the Council).

Season Four - Disorientation in new surroundings. The biggest "Big Bad" yet. The Big Bad is more than just Adam and an army of human/demon hybrids, but also the U.S. government. The Scooby Gang finally bounces pretty much all of the way back to where they were before the emotional turmoil caused by Buffy having to skewer Angel and send him to Hell back at the end of Season Two. The magical melding of the Scooby Gang made them a truly unified force again. It's now all of the above - a physical battle with Adam, an emotional battle with lonliness and isolation when on your own for the first time, a philosophical battle (with Riley initially taking the Council's position _viz_ vampires), and a metaphysical battle as, for the first time, magic plays a critical role in the outcome of the final battle.


Yep, those Season 5 DVD's can't get here soon enough!

QuickEdited to add even more of my ramblings about the development of BtVS from season to season.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AJRitz _
> *All I can say is that this is a remarkably well-constructed series, both in terms of individual episodes building a cohesive and integrated season and then each season building on the one before. Just wonderful television. The way I see it...*


 If that's the way you see it, Season 5 will absolutely knock your socks off.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Skittles-
You're not helping with my impatience here . . .


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AJRitz _
> *Skittles-
> You're not helping with my impatience here . . . *


 If it makes you feel any better, I'm tapping my own foot, waiting impatiently for Uncle Sam to give me my tax refund so I can order all 5 of the Buffy boxed sets from Amazon. 

Granted, I've already seen all the Buffy episodes, but work with me here


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## brahamt (Oct 24, 2002)

AJRitz, I think you wrote an exellent synopsis and for my money, you are right on point.

Now to further increase your impatience; I'm having a hard time deciding it S3 or S5 is the best season. In any case, you have a great season awaiting you.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

According to the UPS tracking, my package left Salina, KS at 1:30 this afternoon. Unfortunately, I'm not set for delivery until February 19. That means it'll probably arrive at the Lenexa sort facility tonight and then they'll sit on it for a day and it'll go out for delivery on Thursday. Luckily, I have to teach on Wednesday night, so I wouldn't have time to watch any episodes anyway -- otherwise the extra 24 hour wait would drive me crazy!

Skittles - The friend who finally pushed me to watch Buffy was in town over the weekend. We were talking about the fact that my impressions the show are probably different from those of someone who was watching the episodes as they aired. I didn't have to suffer through the anticipation of the next show in a week (or in three months) and I didn't have to put up with promotional spots that tend to spoil surprises. I think it allowed me to enjoy the "filler" episodes more than someone who watched as they aired, because I could appreciate them for what they were without being disappointed that I'd have to wait another week for an episode with more "meat" to it - i.e. my appreciation for Beer Bad, an episode that many people hated.

brahamt - You're right, you're not helping. I have to agree that my favorite season so far is Season 3 and that, with the exception of the final battle with Adam, Season 4 was somewhat disappointing in comparison.


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

Let me just second what Skittles said. Season 5 rocks!


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AJRitz _
> *Skittles - The friend who finally pushed me to watch Buffy was in town over the weekend. We were talking about the fact that my impressions the show are probably different from those of someone who was watching the episodes as they aired. I didn't have to suffer through the anticipation of the next show in a week (or in three months) and I didn't have to put up with promotional spots that tend to spoil surprises. I think it allowed me to enjoy the "filler" episodes more than someone who watched as they aired, because I could appreciate them for what they were without being disappointed that I'd have to wait another week for an episode with more "meat" to it - i.e. my appreciation for Beer Bad, an episode that many people hated.*


 I'm with you all the way on this.

I watched Buffy after it'd finished its initial airing, when a friend of mine (who's a huge Buffy/Angel fanatic) suggested I start watching it. I've found that some of my favorite episodes are the "one-off" offerings that don't directly tie into the overall story arc, particularly Beer Bad and A New Man. When I told my friend how much I'd enjoyed Beer Bad, he sort of scoffed at me as though I'd insulted him. 

I probably had it a bit worse than you, because watching it on FX (rather than on DVD) meant waiting over weekends before I could watch the next episode. Still, it's better than waiting weeks/months between them. But, at the same time, those weekend breaks would always coincide with some of the cliffhanger episodes. 

You, however, have it much worse. Once you finish the Season 5 boxed set, you're stuck either (A) waiting a month or two for FX to cycle the Season 6 reruns, or (B) waiting until May 25th for the Season 6 boxed set. And trust me, when you finish Season 5, you're going to be eagerly awaiting Season 6.

BTW, I thought that (as a whole) Season 4 was fairly weak. The whole Adam arc lost its steam about midway through, and felt forced by the end. The finale of that season sort of makes up for it, in a Twin Peaks-esque way. It has some excellent episodes (Hush, in particular), but from an overall standpoint it's lacking. Still, bad Buffy is better than a lot of things on TV.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

WooHoo! UPS tracking reports that my Season 5 DVD's went "out for delivery" at 8:00 a.m. today! I won't get home from teaching until about 9:30 p.m. - at which time my wife will want to watch West Wing. Maybe I CAN actually get a couple of eps of Buffy Season 5 before I have to drag myself to bed 

Skittles-
I agree that Season 4 was sort of odd - there were some remarkable individual episodes (Hush was one of the most outstanding hours of television I've ever watched), but the season as a whole seemed somehow less than the sum of its parts.

As for Season 6 - I've got Bittorrent working on it now. I don't feel bad about downloading, since I'm sure to buy the DVDs anyway. I'm just "time-shifting" the release schedule ;-) Unfortunately the Season 6 files on Bittorrent appear to be copied directly from the DVDs (which have been released elsewhere), instead of the DiVx versions that I was able to get for Season 1. That means a long and arduous process of converting the DVD images to DiVx myself using AutoGK. Unless I get a new, more powerful computer for my birthday next month, I may not be done converting before the U.S. DVDs get released :-(


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

> _Originally posted by AJRitz _
> *Unfortunately the Season 6 files on Bittorrent appear to be copied directly from the DVDs (which have been released elsewhere), instead of the DiVx versions that I was able to get for Season 1. That means a long and arduous process of converting the DVD images to DiVx myself using AutoGK. Unless I get a new, more powerful computer for my birthday next month, I may not be done converting before the U.S. DVDs get released :-( *


 Try www.sharereactor.com; the Season 6 versions (and Season 7) there are all individual files, DivX or XviD.

Season 6: http://www.sharereactor.com/release.php?id=4816
Season 7: http://www.sharereactor.com/release.php?id=2596

Compatible client: http://www.overnet.com/downloads.php


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Also, if you have problems finding it, I have the full (unedited) version of the Season 6 musical, Once More With Feeling, in MPEG format. I've also got the 30 minute "Behind the Scenes" special on the making of the episode. Let me know if you need it.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I was in the process of downloading using Overnet, but several episodes from Season 6 were missing - part two of the season-opening two-parter in particular comes to mind. I decided that transcoding the DVD files would be less of a pain than being stupdendously annoyed at having "holes in the schedule" when I went to watch Season 6.

I haven't actually tried just streaming the DVD files through my Gateway Connected player, and it is theoretically possible - especially now that I've taken care of the choke point problem with my failing router. I'll try that before I start transcoding. Anyone know a quick and dirty way to transform a .vob file into a .mpg file? (I know, I know, check dvdrhelp.com - I will, I just thought I'd ask).

The good news is that I now have the Season 5 DVDs in my hot little hands, a day earlier than expected


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I found that season 4 works a LOT better the second time through, when you realize they knew exactly what they were doing all along, but it was so off-center, it wasn't apparent until the end the first time.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Episode 12 of Season 7 has a TiVo reference.

Way to go Clem.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Yep, I'm an addict. "Not enough time to watch an episode after teaching anyway" last night became, "Well, maybe I can watch 1 or 2" to watching the entire first disk of Season 5 last night - I was up until 2 a.m.

Oh - and I think I've found the answer to my own question about .vob to .mpg conversion. I found a program called ImToo DVD Ripper that converts from .vob to .mpg and has gotten decent reviews. I'm not thrilled about paying $35 for another A/V program, but if it works then it's money well-spent because it saves me the time of transcoding.


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## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

> _Originally posted by scooterboy _
> *Jeez, now you guys have me again wondering whether I should get into this show. Sounds very addictive.
> *


I recommend it. I never watched it before because I assumed that because it was a show about teenagers, it would be a teeny-bopper show.

It's not at all. It's all about character development, and these characters go through alot.

Not to mention, it has "mysterious" arc elements that keep you wanting more.

I just finished Season 3 Disc 3. Netflix probably thinks I'm copying them, I turn them around so fast. 

(I'm not, by the way)


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I'm plowing ahead through Season 5 and just watched "Checkpoint" last night. WOW. Great episode. Loved watching Buffy pull things back together and take charge again. My favorite S5 eps so far are The Replacement (I'm starting to like Xander again) and Checkpoint. I didn't find "Fool For Love" to be as wonderful as most seem to - way to slow and exposition-y.


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## larboz (Feb 2, 2004)

I agree about season 4. I have learned that most do. 
a lot of people seem to not like the last 2 seasons but I think that they are darker than the rest of the show and the last season so far.. has blown me away... 1 last superseason. 

Some of the stand alone episodes are great. while I didnt really care for "Bad Beer" it made enough of an impression to become a running joke.

"The Zeppo" Was also pretty cool.

I tend to like the story arc though gives me a 22 hour movie to watch each season.

Now that Angel might be leaving I need to find more shows with a Big Bad!


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Only four episodes left of Season 7 on FX. It's amazing how much I missed with the first showings. You pick up innuendos and past show references when you watch again.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Season 5 is definitely my favorite season so far. I'm down to 2 episodes left, and the Joyce sub-arc from The Body through Tough Love leaves me speechless. I found myself literally in tears several times at various points throughout those four episodes. Just incredibly powerful, moving television.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AJRitz _
> * I didn't find "Fool For Love" to be as wonderful as most seem to - way to slow and exposition-y. *


I think that it works better if you see it back to back with Angel's episode "Darla"...


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JYoung _
> *I think that it works better if you see it back to back with Angel's episode "Darla"... *


Maybe, though I think part of it is that I'd pretty much already worked out the vamp lineage stuff myself before we got to this point. The whole Master begat Darla begat Angelus begat Drusilla begat Spike, and their interrelationships already made sense to me. The bit with Spike and Slayer/Victim #2 on the subway was interesting cinematography, but the story of the episode didn't really grab me.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

well, after more than 6 months of a Buffy hiatus, I am happy to report that I started watching season 3 today. with this kind of pace I don't have to worry about finishing season 6 before season 7 comes out on dvd. especially since I want to watch Angel in conjunction with Buffy, starting with the next season...

after watching the first episode ("Anne"), I wonder if we will se that girl Lilly again in the future...

the only other comment about this episode is that the continuity department srewed up a bit since Buffy is wearing different shoes in two chronologically closely tied scenes at the end...


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## rickertk (Jan 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by peitsche _
> *
> 
> after watching the first episode ("Anne"), I wonder if we will se that girl Lilly again in the future...
> ...


I don't think she does return to Buffy, but she does return, now using the name "Anne", (same character though), in Angel season 2.

Keith


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

Just watched Band Candy and really enjoyed it...seeing Giles, Buffy's Mom, and Snyder acting this way was a treat...I'm not sure I cared much for the babies sacrifice thing but it was a very funny episode...one of my favorites so far...


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## thevargasgrl (Sep 12, 2004)

am i the only one here whos favorite seasons are 6 and 7? of course id have to agree that the first season isnt as stellar as the following seasons. 
fav episodes from season 1
the witch
angel
the puppet show
season 2
school hard
halloween
suprise/innocence
season 3
lovers walk
the wish
dopplegangland
season 4
fear, itself
wild at heart
something blue
season 5
Buffy vs. Dracula
fool for love
the body
the weight of the world
the gift
season 6
bargaining
once more with feeling
doublemeat palace
seeing red and the subsequent episodes
season 7
same time, same place
him 
never leave me
showtime

of course i love them all, and will watch any of them over.
i havent been able to get into angel, but i think if i start it from the beginning i would understand it a little better.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

> _Originally posted by thevargasgrl _
> *am i the only one here whos favorite seasons are 6 and 7? *


Truth be told, I could not pick out a favorite season. I probably can't really even pick out favorite episodes though a few come to mind that probably are pretty far up on my list. I'd have to watch the whole show a few times more and actually make notes in order to figure that out. I really enjoyed the show as a whole; even those episodes that, at the time I first watched them, might've not impressed me as much. I just love being immersed in that universe. We need a "WestWorld"-style Buffy theme park, I think.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *Truth be told, I could not pick out a favorite season. I probably can't really even pick out favorite episodes though a few come to mind that probably are pretty far up on my list. I'd have to watch the whole show a few times more and actually make notes in order to figure that out. I really enjoyed the show as a whole; even those episodes that, at the time I first watched them, might've not impressed me as much. I just love being immersed in that universe. We need a "WestWorld"-style Buffy theme park, I think.  *


 Ditto here though I do have a handful of favorites. I tend to look at a series like this as a complete work and not seven individual pieces.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I just finished re-watching Buffy S5/Angel S2. A couple of comments:

1. The end of Buffy S5 makes MUCH more sense when watched alongside Angel S2. I remember the first time through thinking that someone should've called LA and gotten Angel and the gang involved for the showdown with Glory. But they were off in Pylea.

2. One thing still bugs me about the end of Buffy S5. When Spike and Xander go to pay a visit to the demon warlock, he tries to prevent them from getting to a particular chest - even throwing the small chest into the fire, from which Spike retrieves it. But they never show us what was in that chest (unless I missed it several times through). And again, unless I missed it, they never use what was in the chest against Glory. They already had the Dagon's sphere, Willow's spell didn't seem like it would have come from the chest, they already had the Troll hammer, they already had robo-Buffy. What's left?


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## thevargasgrl (Sep 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by AJRitz _
> *I just finished re-watching Buffy S5/Angel S2. A couple of comments:
> 
> 1. The end of Buffy S5 makes MUCH more sense when watched alongside Angel S2. I remember the first time through thinking that someone should've called LA and gotten Angel and the gang involved for the showdown with Glory. But they were off in Pylea.
> ...


do you remember WHICH episode it was?


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Xander stabs and "kills" the demon warlock while Spike recovers the chest from the fire in "Weight of the World".


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

finally started watching Buffy Season 4 last week. so far things do not seem to have changed much because of the move to college. and since I'm watching the first season of Angel at the same time, I get my Cordelia and Angel fix as well. I have to say that I really like Angel (the show) a lot more than I thought I would. I especially like Doyle...and the female cop...she is sooo hot...


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## SparkleMotion (Feb 2, 2004)

peitsche said:


> I especially like Doyle...and the female cop...


Um...that's cool. Good luck with that.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

SparkleMotion said:


> Um...that's cool. Good luck with that.


hmmm....


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

peitsche said:


> hmmm....


You'll understand...


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## gerbil42 (Aug 26, 2003)

Talk about resurrecting a thread from the grave.

Not that I mind a WhedonVerse discussion thread, don't get me wrong....


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

I like to pretend Angel S1 never existed. Personally, I think the show took off in S2.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

peitsche said:


> finally started watching Buffy Season 4 last week. so far things do not seem to have changed much because of the move to college.


"Hush" is coming up. One of the best episodes ever. Gotta love the overhead projector bit.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

A bit ironic that this thread just got resurrected and I stumbled across it today, as I relax here in my new TV room giving the 56" DLP a workout by re-watching the Buffy series again. I'm only up to Season 2. I'm watching "What's My Line, Part I" right now, as I type this on the laptop connected via wireless.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Not sure that I'd want to watch S1 on a huge screen like that. Those episodes were awfully grainy.


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

Jeeters said:


> Not sure that I'd want to watch S1 on a huge screen like that. Those episodes were awfully grainy.


Well, first of all 56" is big not "huge". Secondly I'm guessing you haven't been bitten by the big screen bug yet. I've got quite a large display myself and There isn't much of anything I don't prefer to watch upstairs in the media room. The bad quality of certain stuff is there whether I watch it on my 32" or my projector. But on my projector I like to sense of being emersed in what I'm watching. This is particularly fun with something that really sucks you in like Buffy or Angel. Now don't get me wrong. Watching the last season of Angel in HD was pure heaven, but I'll take a big screen (even grainy) season one over a small one any day. Plus, like most people I'm sure, that's the room with the good sound system to.

Now back to the back from the dead thread....

I have most of the entire Buffy and Angel run on DVD but I haven't managed to make time to go through it yet (I watched all but s1 on first run so its not like I haven't seen them once already). Since my wife isn't a marathon tv watcher (is that a euphemism for couch potato?) like me I don't have anyone to enjoy it with. I'd probably get a lot of grief from her if I had my buddies over for an entire weekend and did nothing but watch Buffy and Angel back to back.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

mitkraft said:


> if I had my buddies over for an entire weekend and did nothing but watch Buffy and Angel back to back.


If somebody who doesn't appreciate Buffy & Angel heard that, I think we would have a potential Man Card violation.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

RBlount said:


> If somebody who doesn't appreciate Buffy & Angel heard that, I think we would have a potential Man Card violation.


You'd think he'd rather watch Buffy & Angel front-to-front, wouldn't you?


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

RBlount said:


> If somebody who doesn't appreciate Buffy & Angel heard that, I think we would have a potential Man Card violation.


Ahh, at first glance I could easily see where you could say that. However, let me qualify. My wife doesn't have trouble with much of anything: Strip Clubs, Porn, nights out with the guys, drinking (even coming home at 4am completely toast the night before a family holiday only gets me a little grief and thats only because I'll be a zombie the next day) so I can be understanding and concede that having to play host for 3 days straight and also be bored (like I said she's not a marathon TV watcher) would not be something she'd be excited about. With the stuff mentioned above, trust me, my membership in the "Man Show" club is securely in tact.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

Jeeters said:


> "Hush" is coming up. One of the best episodes ever. Gotta love the overhead projector bit.


I just watched the episode where Oz goes animale with one of his species and then leaves  ...good episode IMO...

then I started watching "The Initiative" and the DVD plays the episode with the commentary even when selecting the "regular" 'play episode.  it doesn't matter which option I choose, it automatically plays the episode with the commentary. as if the "normal" episode wasn't even on the DVD.  did anybody else experience this? I'm referring to a Netflix DVD....


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## Droobiemus (Sep 30, 2004)

peitsche said:


> then I started watching "The Initiative" and the DVD plays the episode with the commentary even when selecting the "regular" 'play episode.  it doesn't matter which option I choose, it automatically plays the episode with the commentary. as if the "normal" episode wasn't even on the DVD.  did anybody else experience this? I'm referring to a Netflix DVD....


Is there an "audio" button on your DVD player's remote? Try hitting that a few times to see if it gets rid of the commentary... 

All this Buffy talk makes me want to rewatch the whole series over again, even though I'm currently in the tail end of season 4 for Angel and at episode 10 for season 7 of Buffy.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

Droobiemus said:


> Is there an "audio" button on your DVD player's remote? Try hitting that a few times to see if it gets rid of the commentary...


well, whadda ya know? there IS an audio button on the remote... and it sure solved the mystery...thanks!

watched "The Initiative" and "Pangs" last night. what a bunch of horse hooey (as Willow would put it) with this whole secret agent thing. the TA and his professor are actually government agents capturing vampires and demons?  I don't know about that storyline. but maybe it will work. but, more importantly, "Pangs" was a terrific episode. I was really laughing out loud a few times and Spike was just great.  maybe it's because Turkey Day is my favorite holiday...it sure was one of my favorite episodes so far...now back to watching Angel...


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

A few comments, as I type while watching "I Only Have Eyes For You"

I re-watched Season 1 before the move, and before the big screen arrived, so I can't really comment on the extra-graininess of it.

The first time through, Season 4 was by far my least favorite season. I still don't so much like the Initiative story line, but I liked the season as a whole MUCH better the second time through.

I've managed to get a co-worker addicted to Buffy. I encouraged her to stick with it through Season 1, and now she's at about the same place in Season 2 as I am, and she's completely hooked.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

EVERY episode of Buffy is better the second time around. Of course they're brilliant the first time, but the second time, you'll catch dozens of things missed the first time, like subtleties in the relationships, bits of dialog that make more sense, foreshadowing of later events, etc. The drama is stronger, the comedy sharper, and the enjoyment is even more complete. These show was the best ever successful series on TV.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

But the fourth season is a special case, because it seems so aimless, but has such a tight, well-hidden structure that is really only apparent the second time through. I'd say it is easily the season that improves the most the second time through.


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## SparkleMotion (Feb 2, 2004)

I agree about the much-maligned season 4.

And I don't have a PhD.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I must admit that as I re-watch seasons, I also do a bit of self-editing. Re-watching Season 2, I skipped _Ted_, _Bad Eggs_, and _Go Fish_. As I remembered, none of them contributed much to plot development (except maybe for Cordy deciding that Xander was pretty hot in his Speedo), and anything I might have missed would have been minor compared to my general annoyance with those episodes.


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## SparkleMotion (Feb 2, 2004)

But...but...Ted had John Ritter!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Season 4 wasn't bad at all except that the Big Bad was the Big Mediocre and they killed off the evil professor way too soon. I thought she'd have been a more noteworthy adversary than Adam turned out to be.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Season 4 wasn't bad at all except that the Big Bad was the Big Mediocre and they killed off the evil professor way too soon. I thought she'd have been a more noteworthy adversary than Adam turned out to be.


You are forgetting about "Bad Beer" (or maybe you wanted to forget about that.) Definately one of the worst Buffy episode's every. However, overall I did like Season 4.

Just remember, a bad episode (or even season) of Buffy is better than 90% of the rest of the crap out there.


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## SparkleMotion (Feb 2, 2004)

RBlount said:


> You are forgetting about "Bad Beer"


And you are forgetting it was actually "Beer Bad".


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

And that some of us actually enjoy the Beer Bad episode


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I about to start double-duty Buffy review. In my own repeats, I'm in the midst of Season 3 right now (just finished watching "Bad Girls"). As I mentioned in the new thread I posted this morning, I'm about to start over with Season 1 with a Buffy neophyte here at work.

Should I be pointing out the little things that I find myself noticing only on the 2nd or 3rd viewing of an episode, or should I just let the neophyte absorb at her own pace?


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## thevargasgrl (Sep 12, 2004)

!!!!!!!!!! 
So I was watching "Fool for Love" today and realized something-- the girl human Spike is in love with is none other than HALFREK, Anya's vengence demon friend!
I don't know how I NEVER realized this. I must have seen both the episodes 10 times.
Also, why is it that Spike can eat (eats the cookie in Something Blue and the hot wings in Fool for Love) and Angel can't? We never saw him eat in Buffy but in the Angel episode "I will remember you" he expresses his love for being able to eat after becoming human again.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

It's not that Angel CAN'T eat, it's that he doesn't have a taste for food. It's all bland to him (until he "humanizes" in I Will Remember You). Spike generally likes pub food - wings, blooming onions, etc. I suspect he likes them out of nostalgia for pub food rather than for the taste.

FWIW, they never really confirm that Halfrek is Cecily, but they do hint at it pretty strongly. Later, I don't remember exactly which episode - it might be Hell's Bells - Hallie sees Spike and immediately recognizes him and refers to him as William. He doesn't acknowledge her by name.


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## thevargasgrl (Sep 12, 2004)

Hakfrek and Cecily are played by the same actress too.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Yes, I know that Halfrek and Cecily are played by the same actress. But that kind of thing isn't really uncommon in the Jossverse. If you look and listen carefully, you'll notice that Tom Lenk also does double-villian-duty. His more visible role is as Andrew (weenie member of the Trio). But he also appears as a member of Harmony's vampire gang in the episode when Harmony's gang kidnaps Dawn as part of Harm's ill-conceived plan to kill the Slayer. 

The characters are played by the same actor, but there's no way that they're really the same character as well.


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## thevargasgrl (Sep 12, 2004)

AJRitz said:


> Yes, I know that Halfrek and Cecily are played by the same actress. But that kind of thing isn't really uncommon in the Jossverse. If you look and listen carefully, you'll notice that Tom Lenk also does double-villian-duty. His more visible role is as Andrew (weenie member of the Trio). But he also appears as a member of Harmony's vampire gang in the episode when Harmony's gang kidnaps Dawn as part of Harm's ill-conceived plan to kill the Slayer.
> 
> The characters are played by the same actor, but there's no way that they're really the same character as well.


Touche.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

SparkleMotion said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by peitsche
> I especially like Doyle...and the female cop...
> 
> Um...that's cool. Good luck with that.


ah, now I understand...I watched "Hero" last night (I am taking my time with these DVDs  ). too bad about Doyle. but I still have hope to see the hot female cop return... :up:


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## TiVoShanan (Jun 13, 2002)

Be still my un-dead heart.

You said Buffy.

I watched 6 episodes yesterday, pretty much back-to-back.
(I have all the DVDs as well.)
Nothing could make me sit still that long except maybe the LoTR trilogy.

Sooooo much to enjoy.
Joss is a genius.

BTW, Nicholas Brendon is a big TiVo fan. He just recently got an 80-hour DVD Recorder with TiVo. Dumped his DIRECTV box so he could enjoy our broadband features. 

Alyson Hannigan is also a TiVo fan.
And of course, SMG, too.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

TiVoShanan said:


> Nothing could make me sit still that long except maybe the LoTR trilogy.


/ears perk up...

How about the extended editions?


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## TiVoShanan (Jun 13, 2002)

Heh, YES.
ESPECIALLY if I get to wear my Arwen gown.

OF course I have one!


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

TiVoShanan said:


> Heh, YES.
> ESPECIALLY if I get to wear my Arwen gown.
> 
> OF course I have one!


/ears perk up MORE. Thinks about ditiching the MacWorld Keynote for a screening of the movies.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

Glad somebody bumped this thread!

I just had my annual watching of Once More With Feeling, and I just wanted to say again:

Best hour of television. Ever.


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## TiVoShanan (Jun 13, 2002)

Here, here, David!
YOU have greeeeeeeeeeat taste.

But a modest correction: Wasn't the original broadcast on network television actually an hour and change? 

heheeh.

I used to play that soundtrack over and over in my car during my commute.

Best number: I'll Never Tell.
Xander and Anya!

You're the cutest of the Scoobies,
With your lips as red as rubies...
And your firm yet supple... tight embrace!!


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

isn't that the musical one?

If so, you both would have loved out TC New Years Eve party. A bunch of people watched it and sang along. (actually, they did that on Friday night, IIRC)


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

David Platt said:


> Glad somebody bumped this thread!
> 
> I just had my annual watching of Once More With Feeling, and I just wanted to say again:
> 
> Best hour of television. Ever.


It's on FX tomorrow morning.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

It must be bunnies! (Or maybe midgets.)

Sorry. I was transported.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

Heh - wow. A synchronicity moment. I just started my annual Buffy/Angel re-watch last week. I watched three eps today. Season One will be done tomorrow, assuming I still feel this crappy in the morning and take another sick day.


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## Michelle5150 (Nov 16, 2004)

Funny. We got the special boxed set thing a couple months back, and i've been watching the series from the beginning for the last few weeks. I'm in season 6 right now, so I just watched OMWF last night (yay!) and Doublemeat Palace today (Boo!). Haven't seen or listened to OMWF in several months. It's probably my fav hour of television ever too. 

I'm prettymuch Buffy addicted at the moment. Just watching episode after episode. :up:


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

TiVoShanan said:


> Here, here, David!
> YOU have greeeeeeeeeeat taste.
> 
> But a modest correction: Wasn't the original broadcast on network television actually an hour and change?
> ...


See, I just _knew_ somebody was going to say that!

The actual running time of the episode was only 48 minutes, so I just rounded up to an hour.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

AJRitz said:


> Heh - wow. A synchronicity moment. I just started my annual Buffy/Angel re-watch last week. I watched three eps today. Season One will be done tomorrow, assuming I still feel this crappy in the morning and take another sick day.


yeah, I remember we were *even* once (way back in this thread) on the Buffy watching timeline but things have turned out quite funny. while I am still on my first run of the shows (Buffy Season 4 and Angel Season 1 at the moment) you have managed to watch all 12 seasons several times by now... 

but it also means I still have some of the best Buffy (and Angel) ahead of me. 
and in time, I will finally find out what all the OMWF fuss is about...


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

I still get teary when



Spoiler



Joyce Summers dies



even thinking about it..in fact..right now..teary. That and the Angel episode of Hero...Doyle, man. we miss you.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> isn't that the musical one?
> 
> If so, you both would have loved out TC New Years Eve party. A bunch of people watched it and sang along. (actually, they did that on Friday night, IIRC)


Yes. Once More with Feeling is the musical one. The singalong at the New Years Eve Eve party was fun. 10 or so people all singing along to the episode.

Including a few doing the chorus line / turn away during "Where Do We Go From Here". We'll go hand in hand / But we'll walk alone in fear / Tell me / Where do we go / from here?


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## ehusen (Jan 7, 2002)

Michelle5150 said:


> Funny. We got the special boxed set thing a couple months back, and i've been watching the series from the beginning for the last few weeks. I'm in season 6 right now, so I just watched OMWF last night (yay!) and Doublemeat Palace today (Boo!). Haven't seen or listened to OMWF in several months. It's probably my fav hour of television ever too.
> 
> I'm prettymuch Buffy addicted at the moment. Just watching episode after episode. :up:


Yup, loved the show. Miss it a lot. And has basically turned me into a Joss Whedon worshipping fool.  (although I never did quite get into Firefly). Pretty much anything Joss does now will get me to at least give it a good looking over.

OMWF is also one of my favorite hours of TV. In fact, I actually used a wishlist to capture it off of TV. (Buffy's in syndication and shows at like 6:00am in the morning???) Anyway, I don't buy DVD sets of TV shows and was just thinking I would really like to see the episode again. I actually setup a search for "Once More ..." wishlist. Took about 3 months to hit but it's on my Tivo as of today. 

And I did pick up a few other funny unrelated shows that also start with "Once More..."


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

ehusen said:


> Anyway, I don't buy DVD sets of TV shows and was just thinking I would really like to see the episode again. I actually setup a search for "Once More ..." wishlist. Took about 3 months to hit but it's on my Tivo as of today.


Cool. I just wish they hadn't trimmed out parts (including parts of some songs) to shorten it for syndication.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jonathan_S said:


> Cool. I just wish they hadn't trimmed out parts (including parts of some songs) to shorten it for syndication.


Well, they had to. Syndication has to fit into a 1-hour time slot. Just think of it as, they lengthened it for the original broadcast and DVD!


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## Michelle5150 (Nov 16, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> Cool. I just wish they hadn't trimmed out parts (including parts of some songs) to shorten it for syndication.


I remember the first time we saw OMWF it was a repeat, and we thought the way "Under Your Spell" ended was just a bad edit job. We should have known it was just Joss having fun with the moment.


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

mmilton80 said:


> I still get teary when
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I try and I try and I try, but still I cry at the end of


Spoiler



The Prom. When Buffy gets the "little toy surprise", I can't help it. I just blubber.

_Jonathan: We have one more award to give out. Is Buffy Summers here tonight? Did she, um...
The crowd turns and finds her. She looks nervous at the attention.
Jonathan: This is actually a new category. First time ever. I guess there were a lot of write-in ballots, and, um, the prom committee asked me to read this. "We're not good friends. Most of us never found the time to get to know you, but that doesn't mean we haven't noticed you. We don't talk about it much, but it's no secret that Sunnydale High isn't really like other high schools. A lot of weird stuff happens here."
Crowd outbursts: Zombies! Hyena people! Snyder! (laughter)
Jonathan: "But, whenever there was a problem or something creepy happened, you seemed to show up and stop it. Most of the people here have been saved by you, or helped by you at one time or another. We're proud to say that the Class of '99 has the lowest mortality rate of any graduating class in Sunnydale history." (applause from the crowd) "And we know at least part of that is because of you. So the senior class, offers its thanks, and gives you, uh, this."
Jonathan produces a multicolored, glittering, miniature umbrella with a small metal plaque attached to the shaft.
Jonathan: It's from all of us, and it has written here, "Buffy Summers, Class Protector."
The crowd breaks into sustained applause and cheering. Buffy walks to the stage and takes her award. _



My eyes are a little moist just thinking about it.

Seriously.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

Lori said:


> I try and I try and I try, but still I cry at the end of
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



That one always chokes me up too, Lori. It still doesn't top Anya's "why won't anybody tell me" speech about death in 'The Body' for tear-production, but it's pretty darn close!


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## ccwf (Dec 30, 2001)

TiVoShanan said:


> I used to play that soundtrack over and over in my car during my commute.


 Me, too (actually, recordings of the songs from the original broadcast rather than the official soundtrack) 

Heh, my old TiVo DVR says I've watched all or part of that original OMWF broadcast sixty times for a total of 39 hours and 46 minutes.  (For the copyright police, I, of course, use my TiVo DVRs only for timeshifting and not for librarying. )


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

I bet that we watched OMWF 30 times in the first month after it was broadcast. Everyday, my husband would come home and say, "Make Buffy sing!"


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Lori said:


> I bet that we watched OMWF 30 times in the first month after it was broadcast. Everyday, my husband would come home and say, "Make Buffy sing!"


I wish I still had the original and not the repeat. Anyone want to send me a copy? Please?


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

I just finished watching "School Hard" from Season 2 - Spike's arrival. WOW! His accent was AWFUL! It got so much better over time, that I didn't remember how ridiculously bad it was at first.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Just watched The Musical again.
My favorite song as swiched from the Willow/Tara duet to Buffy's "walk through the fire"
such awesome songs!


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## lonwolf615 (May 19, 2004)

Just in case anyone is interested: Rhonda Wilcox has a great book out called "Why Buffy Matters: The Art of Buffy The Vamprie Slayer." Her thesis is that tv can be as much an artform as film, and she uses Buffy as the best example to prove her point. Divided into 2 parts (general themes and in depth looks at specific episodes) its not merely a fan book by any means. I'd reccomend it highly to anyone who finds themselves thinking about the slayer and wants some insight into the spell Buffy can cast. 
For my own part, I was exposed to comparitive mythology while in college, mainly J. Campell's work. That led me to reading everything I could find on western mythology, esp. greek, norse, anglo-saxon...There have been several attempts to create myths in films.(LOTRs, Batman, SW, etc.) For me Buffy-Angel succeeds far better than any of those. Its truely a late 20th century western myth, "a fable for our time."


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Who else noticed there were musical cameos by David Fury and Marti Noxon?


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## TiVaholic (Nov 29, 2000)

balboa dave said:


> Who else noticed there were musical cameos by David Fury and Marti Noxon?


Hey, I'm not wearing underwear...


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

ehusen said:


> ...although I never did quite get into Firefly...


My wife and I were very surprised when we tried to get into Firefly during it's initial run. We could recognize all the Whedonesque elments, but try as we might, we absolutely could not learn to like it.

Cut to last year:

When I found out the movie Serenity was on it's way, I TiVo'd all the Firefly eps from the Sci-Fi channel. We figured we'd watch it just for the heck of it, 'cuz no matter what, we definitely were going to go support Joss's movie. Well, the second time around, we were hooked from the very first episode! We can't figure out how we could have missed out on it the first time. It's not Buffy, but it's still absolutely fantastic.

And back to Buffy:
Just got our "Chosen Collection" in the mail this week. Marathon last night, and probably again tonight. Best. Show. Ever.


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## lonwolf615 (May 19, 2004)

Any differences between the Chosen collection and the previous releases that make it worth a double dip?


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

balboa dave said:


> Who else noticed there were musical cameos by David Fury and Marti Noxon?


I did, for one.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

lonwolf615 said:


> Any differences between the Chosen collection and the previous releases that make it worth a double dip?


There's a separate disc that claims to be never-before-seen materials (round-table discussion btw directors, cast, writers, etc., and some other stuff). Otherwise, I previously only had Seasons 1 and 2 on DVD, so that's all I have to compare to. As far as I can tell, though, the new discs for those two seasons are exactly the same as the ones in my original sets.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

I watched "Who are you?" (S04E15) last night and thought that Buffy looks really skinny in that episode (maybe because she's really Faith...  ). especially in the scene where she practices some "clever and cool" lines in front of the mirror. anybody else thought that?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Dawghows said:


> My wife and I were very surprised when we tried to get into Firefly during it's initial run. We could recognize all the Whedonesque elments, but try as we might, we absolutely could not learn to like it.
> 
> Cut to last year:
> 
> When I found out the movie Serenity was on it's way, I TiVo'd all the Firefly eps from the Sci-Fi channel. We figured we'd watch it just for the heck of it, 'cuz no matter what, we definitely were going to go support Joss's movie. Well, the second time around, we were hooked from the very first episode! We can't figure out how we could have missed out on it the first time. It's not Buffy, but it's still absolutely fantastic.


Heh. Funny you should mention that.

When _Firefly_ first aired, I boycotted it, because I was pissed at Joss. Yes, silly fanboy that I am, I actually boycotted a show by my favorite TV writer/creator ever because I was pissed that he was starting _yet_ another show. Instead of being excited about more Joss goodness in the world, I felt that _Buffy_ and _Angel_ were noticeably slipping, and because Joss was now starting another show, my two favorite shows in the world would decline even further. So, I didn't watch it. (Not that I would have been able to locate it anyway, probably, given all of the episode cancellations by Fox and the subequent cancellage - I didn't get Tivo until December of 2002).

FF to this summer. I'd heard for several years on this board how good _Firefly_ was, but I just couldn't take the plunge to buy it/rent it (after all, I had my _Buffy_ DVDs for whenever I needed a Joss pick-me-up). But I knew that a movie was being made out of it, and I was impressed that the fans had spurred that rather momentous occurrence (i.e. a movie being made out of a TV show that didn't even last a full season). Plus, the eps were going to air on SciFi Channel. So, I set up an SP and dutifully watched them, and was smack-dab in love with the show by the time I saw "Our Mrs. Reynolds". In fact, I couldn't wait a week between airings, so I went out and bought the box set, and became a full-fledged Browncoat.

Now, many of you know that I am a huge Buffyverse fan, but I'm going to go out on a limb here. _Buffy_ is my all-time favorite show, but _Firefly_ got better, faster than _Buffy_ or _Angel_ did (and well it should, since Joss had a chance to learn from his prior efforts), and I think that had it had a chance to air for several seasons, it would assume the top spot in my all-time pantheon.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I hate bumping an old thread when I was the last poster, but oh well.

Since we are smack dab in the middle of re-run season, I've popped the Buffy DVDs in for another go-round. Man, I miss this show. However, I've happily discovered a few things now that I've re-watched S6 (for the first time since it originally aired) and am halfway through S7 (also for the first time since it re-aired): S6 is not nearly as bad as I remembered, and S7 is actually pretty damn good!

Don't get me wrong - I still consider even Bad _Buffy_ better than Good of almost any other show on TV, now or then, but at the time they aired, I felt that S6 and S7 (to a lesser extent) were very disappointing compared to the sheer, unadulterated genius of prior seasons. Sure, they had their moments ("Fool for Love" and "Once More With Feeling" among the notable eps), but overall I remember feeling that the show had deteriorated. Now, clearly these seasons are still inferior to the show's earlier greatness, but now that I've got some separation, and thus some perspective, I think I can appreciate these last 2 seasons for how good they actually were.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I hate bumping an old thread when I was the last poster, but oh well.
> 
> Since we are smack dab in the middle of re-run season, I've popped the Buffy DVDs in for another go-round. Man, I miss this show. However, I've happily discovered a few things now that I've re-watched S6 (for the first time since it originally aired) and am halfway through S7 (also for the first time since it re-aired): S6 is not nearly as bad as I remembered, and S7 is actually pretty damn good!
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I still consider even Bad _Buffy_ better than Good of almost any other show on TV, now or then, but at the time they aired, I felt that S6 and S7 (to a lesser extent) were very disappointing compared to the sheer, unadulterated genius of prior seasons. Sure, they had their moments ("Fool for Love" and "Once More With Feeling" among the notable eps), but overall I remember feeling that the show had deteriorated. Now, clearly these seasons are still inferior to the show's earlier greatness, but now that I've got some separation, and thus some perspective, I think I can appreciate these last 2 seasons for how good they actually were.


I started season two a week ago...I forgot how in love I am with Buffy.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I hate bumping an old thread when I was the last poster, but oh well.
> 
> Since we are smack dab in the middle of re-run season, I've popped the Buffy DVDs in for another go-round. Man, I miss this show. However, I've happily discovered a few things now that I've re-watched S6 (for the first time since it originally aired) and am halfway through S7 (also for the first time since it re-aired): S6 is not nearly as bad as I remembered, and S7 is actually pretty damn good!


I think (and can recall people speculating at the time) that season 7 suffered from having too many weeks where it didn't air, and would work much better on rewatching when you had less delay.

I think there was suppose to be a sense that Buffy and co. were casting about searching for a way to handle the big bad. But with all the interruptions it just felt like the writers didn't have a plan; rather that showing that the _characters_ were the ones without a plan.

Plus the proliferation of proto-slayers tended to take away screen time from the main actors, which again was made worse by the weeks new episodes weren't shown. You can get pretty annoyed with seeing the proto-slayers when it has been a month since you've seen more than 30 seconds of Willow or Spike.


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## lonwolf615 (May 19, 2004)

I think that could be the biggest seperation between Buffy fans-those who suffered through the week by week airings, and those of us who only know it through dvd, where we can watch as much as we want at anytime. For me, I have to keep reminding myself this was a tv show and not a very long movie, the episodes fit together so well. And that is never more true than the 7th season. I've watched the whole series 3 times in the last year and a half, and each viewing has provided some surprises. The biggest on my 3rd viewing is just how good seven is. A very dark tone and probably the most unified of any of the years. I could see how trying to follow it, esp. if it wasn't on every week. could lead to disappointment for those watching on air. But as a continuing saga it might be the high point of the whole series.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I think that is an excellent point, Jonathan and lonwolf - I can almost viscerally remember watching Season 7 and being frustrated at the gaps between weeks, and how certain things seemed to _drag_ out forever, when in fact it was only 2 episodes or so. But when those 2 eps take 6 weeks to air, the sensation is understandable.

In any event, I am now excited because I've watched 1-5 numerous times, but I kept holding off on watching 6 and 7 because I didn't think I could keep my frustration in check long enough to last the entire season. Now I can watch 1-7 in a row, and just enjoy myself.

Yay for me.


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## AJRitz (Mar 25, 2002)

On re-watching, Season 6 has become one of my favorite seasons. So deliciously complex emotionally for every single one of the main characters. 

Which reminds me - I was having some issues with my Season 6 DVDs and suspended my marathon re-watching. I need to deal with that ASAP. Mostly, need to figure out if the issue with with the player or the disks, and replace whichever is the problem. . . .

Oh - and being an after-it-was-already-over arrival to the Buffy ouevre, I've always seen it as a fabulous 100+ hour epic film. Someday, maybe Mrs. AJRitz and the Bug (and the little parasite on the way) will take a week's vacation without me, and I'll hole myself up in the media room and watch the whole thing in one sitting


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

One thing that some Buffy seasons suffer from is that the show was very carefully planned out. Usually, the overall shape of the season was obvious almost from the beginning, and those are the seasons that people loved the most as they were airing. But a couple of them (especially 4 and 6) developed more subtly, with the Big Bad only emerging late in the game. Those are the ones that people disliked (or even hated) when they aired, but I think they greatly reward a second viewing, when the overall shape of the season is more obvious.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Our family just finished the last episode of Season 7 last night.

Got the complete run for Christmas.

That was fun! 

Pony


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Season 7 remains sub-par for Buffy, but as pointed out, bad Buffy is still better than most other items on TV. The problem for me wasn't the proto-slayers or the weeks between episodes (both were definitely distractions, I'll agree) but the plotlines planned for, begun, hyped, then abruptly abandoned. I'll beg to differ with the esteemed lonwolf on this aspect - I felt season 7 was the LEAST unified season of them all.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

LoadStar said:


> Season 7 remains sub-par for Buffy, but as pointed out, bad Buffy is still better than most other items on TV. The problem for me wasn't the proto-slayers or the weeks between episodes (both were definitely distractions, I'll agree) but the plotlines planned for, begun, hyped, then abruptly abandoned. I'll beg to differ with the esteemed lonwolf on this aspect - I felt season 7 was the LEAST unified season of them all.


+1

(I'm not even sure I'm using that right, but I think it means what I think it means  )

Wasn't the same true of the corresponding season of Angel? Seemed like both of those shows were adjusted midstream to fit in a storyline for a former Firefly star.

I guess I just hated that mid season 7, it takes Buffy, a full trained slayer, a maximum amount of effort and a prolonged fight to kill one (1) ubervamp. But by the series finale, a bunch of just-got-their-powers slayer wannabes are taking on an army of them? I think I just hated the whole idea of the chosen bunch.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Zevida said:


> +1
> 
> (I'm not even sure I'm using that right, but I think it means what I think it means  )
> 
> Wasn't the same true of the corresponding season of Angel? Seemed like both of those shows were adjusted midstream to fit in a storyline for a former Firefly star.


Not really. While both ended up having a Firefly star (Adam Baldwin on Angel, Nathan Fillion on Buffy), it seemed to flow much better on Angel, and didn't require any re-writing of the plot to fit Adam into that season. Adam was cast perfectly for the character, and the character fit in awesome.

I'd argue that Gina Torres' appearance during season 4 was more jarring, and that not because of her, but only because of the unfortunate plotline with Cordelia and Connor.


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

I've watched Angel and Firefly start to finish a couple of times but I've only watched a few Buffy episodes since it went off the air. Somehow the direction the characters took during the final season kind of soured me on the whole show. I would have been much happier if it just ended on the WB (though I did enjoy the musical episode) . 

I don't see paying thirty bucks a season, but maybe I'll do a Tivo search to see if I can give it another go.


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## purple6816 (May 27, 2003)

Try Netflix or go to block buster and then use dvdshrink.


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## lonwolf615 (May 19, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> One thing that some Buffy seasons suffer from is that the show was very carefully planned out. Usually, the overall shape of the season was obvious almost from the beginning, and those are the seasons that people loved the most as they were airing. But a couple of them (especially 4 and 6) developed more subtly, with the Big Bad only emerging late in the game. Those are the ones that people disliked (or even hated) when they aired, but I think they greatly reward a second viewing, when the overall shape of the season is more obvious.


Thats a great point. I've always wondered why I like S4 so much when so many whose opinions I highly respect hated it. I mean, the other most mentioned subpar seasons, 6+7, have their defenders. But nobody seems to like S4 but me. I still find it the most interesting year of the show, with all the basic dynamics between the leads being redefined. But again, my first viewing of the series was on dvd, and by the time I reached S4 I was devouring episodes at such a fast rate I had no time to form expectations where it was going. It all just kinda washed over me and I was so caught up in the story I accepted the shifts. Someone following it over the course of a year might have found it jarring, but I watched the whole thing in a week so I missed that. 
S6 I think might have been the most ambitious, and they might have exceeded their grasp a few times. The show was always about metaphor, but sometimes in 6 the actual story suffers as they try to make a symbolic point. On the whole though, I still think it works. The idea that we all have to grow up but will do anything possible to avoid the pain growing up involves is pretty deep stuff for a tv show about vampires, and they pulled it off. 
About Seven... On my third viewing is when I first noticed some of the problems with 6 and finally admitted to myself that sometimes it got a little silly. That made me suspect S7 would not be as enjoyable this time through, but boy was I wrong. I was completely hooked by the second episode, and watching knowing what was coming later, I caught all kinds of foreshadowing of future events. Joss says in the commentary of the first episode that he knew how the season would end and was setting it up from the beginning, and I tend to agree. And I know the storys about him throwing away storyboards and changing the complete direction of the show once it was made public it was the last year. Still, I see an unity. Caleb was hinted at early on-there clearly was a force that was more ruthless and smarter than any before, and when he finally shows up it seemed natural to me. Part of it is NF's performance-he really took off in the part, and even as much as I like Mal, this is my favorite role of his so far. Its like Spike would have been if he had stayed evil, and who wouldn't like to have seen more of that? 
S7 is about becoming who you will be for the rest of your life, and the struggles this time are as much internal as they are against an outside evil. And as the internal confict in each of them goes on, the mood is darker and less optimistic than ever before. Its that dark mood that gives the season unity, and it stays dark right through the final battle. Right up until Buffy flashes that smile. 
Whew, Wolf..shut up already.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> One thing that some Buffy seasons suffer from is that the show was very carefully planned out. Usually, the overall shape of the season was obvious almost from the beginning, and those are the seasons that people loved the most as they were airing. But a couple of them (especially 4 and 6) developed more subtly, with the Big Bad only emerging late in the game. Those are the ones that people disliked (or even hated) when they aired, but I think they greatly reward a second viewing, when the overall shape of the season is more obvious.


I disagree. There were seasons where Joss mostly ran the show and those where he was more involved in Angel or, later, Firefly. By Season 5, I could watch the first 10 minutes of an episode and tell you, without seeing any credits, whether it was Joss, Marti, or someone else who wrote/directed.

Joss has amazing writing and directing skills. He can be blatant and subtle at the same time. His timing and pacing is near perfect. Even if you don't like the subject matter, you can admire the shows he made purely from a "film appreciation" standpoint.

Marti, on the other end, seems to only be able to create soap operas. She had a couple of shows that were on, but the ratio was VERY low.

And what they did with Spike to put him on Angel completely undid all that character development in Buffy that made Spike on of the coolest characters on television.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

hfwarner3 said:


> I disagree. There were seasons where Joss mostly ran the show and those where he was more involved in Angel or, later, Firefly. By Season 5, I could watch the first 10 minutes of an episode and tell you, without seeing any credits, whether it was Joss, Marti, or someone else who wrote/directed.
> 
> Joss has amazing writing and directing skills. He can be blatant and subtle at the same time. His timing and pacing is near perfect. Even if you don't like the subject matter, you can admire the shows he made purely from a "film appreciation" standpoint.
> 
> ...


I was with you all the way up until the last paragraph... that I disagree with.

Other than that, you are dead on about Marti.


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## lonwolf615 (May 19, 2004)

Every opinion is valid. Of course Joss seemed to have no problem with Marti and speaks highly of her on many of the commentaries. He's always said he was directly responsible for all the seasons, to the point that if you don't like them its him you don't like. I suppose one could say he's just being loyal but.still... 
Not trying to start an argument but the show was always soap operish. Trying to seperate it by who is responsible gets a little silly, esp. when Joss didn't write some of the best episodes even in the early seasons. And yeah, I know the reply to that is he rewrote everything so all of it is his. But watching it as a whole I never got this sudden jarring change in outlook or sensibility. It all seems a pretty natural progression to me, with all the different writers incorporated into the myth Buffy became. 
I was told when I first watched it that In The Woods would be the watershed episode -if I liked that one, I would have no problem with the show's later turns. Well, I loved it, still do. To me, Marti brought a lot to the table, and Joss seems to agree. He has said that the show was always his baby and he would never let someone else take it where he didn't want it to go. I agree with him he made the right choices. 
I do see the validity of the complaints and am not saying anybody is wrong. I'm just trying to say its possible to have another view thats equally valid. Peace.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

LoadStar said:


> I was with you all the way up until the last paragraph... that I disagree with.
> 
> Other than that, you are dead on about Marti.


**** ANGEL SPOILER WARNING *****

Explain to me how the transition from martyr (and I mean that in the true original sense of the word) to ghost to flunky was a good character development? In Season 7, we really learned about William the Bloody Awful Poet. We saw him through away his humanity and embrace evil out of angst and a desire for acceptance.

William wanted to be a bold person and he thought and hoped that his poetry would give him the medium to express himself. When he realized how had he was, through it all away out of anger, frustration, angst, .... and HOPE. He hoped that he would grow into that something else that he knew he had the potential to be. Thus he becomes William the Bloody, aka Spike. He kills not one, but two slayers. Why? Because he can! His violence and cruelty had become his new medium thanks to the demon, but the human reflection of William that was left still had those same needs, hopes, and dreams. Now they were being expressed in a dark, twisted way, but at least they were being expressed.

He sought the love of a woman - first his mother. He never found it. He sought Dru, but found that he was only a plaything to her. He falls into a near worship of Dru but seems to know inside that it is a shadow of the real love that he seeks. He risks his very existence for her and still she turns away from him. Again, the woman in his life betrays him.

He goes from being a shadow of a man to a shadow of a vampire - a wheelchair-bound corpse that gets only pity if even given any attention at all. The Harmony phase. The bachelor watching soap operas. It becomes playing at being instead of being. He questions his identity -- am I evil beyond redemption? Is there more than just existing?

This culminates to the affair with Buffy. They both enter it out of a need to feel -- to feel ANYTHING. She is dead inside, miserable with having lost heaven, and questioning the purpose of it all. He is dead outside, is miserable for having lost hell, and questioning the purpose of it all. The raw emotion and energy of the sex is all they have left. But from that, they grow.

Buffy grows back into the slayer on the inside, not just the out. Spike, however, has a crisis when he tries to rape Buffy -- he realizes that he has grown true feelings for her. He realizes that he has a choice and that redemption is not impossible. He repents.

Through an entire season, we watch him grow from that little boy who sought the path to manhood into the man he always meant to be. He fell off the path and into the shadows for several decades, but in the end, he gets his soul back and becomes the MAN he always wanted to be. He knew that as a vampire, he was still a boy with childish feelings and motives backed by supernatural power, but now he is a man with abilities beyond men.

And he seeks to complete his redemption by proving to Buffy that he really is a good man. Buffy, the woman who saw him at his lowest, is now the judge whom he appoints to validate that he is the man he wanted to be.

Spike gives his life to save others out of love. He finally realizes that sacrificing himself to save not only the woman he loves but all the people she is seeking to save and failing is worth his life. The look they exchange is all he needs. She KNOWS that he is a good man. He dies feeling the fire of redemption burning away all the evil he had done. He dies at peace. It is a martyr's death worthy of song and legend.

And it is all dismissed with a deus ex machina plot device just so that the character can play on in Angel and help boost ratings.

Some moments of plot should be sacred.

That is what I mean by my statement. How do you think that continuation of the Spike story in Angel added to his character and not take away?


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## canonelan2 (May 11, 2001)

A friend e-mailed me a link...

http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/2006/07/the_new_buffy_c.html

... cause he knows I'm a Buffy fan.

Is this for sale yet? I can't find it on the Dark Horse website. Apparently this isn't the first Buffy comic... was that considered canon?

I'm not a comic guy but if Joss is continuing the Buffy story... I'm interested.

Anyone have details on this?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Dawghows said:


> ...And back to Buffy:
> Just got our "Chosen Collection" in the mail this week. Marathon last night, and probably again tonight. Best. Show. Ever.


I'm confused - I just noticed that this collection existed, but the listings I see for it show a release date of 9/19/06. Is it a re-release or something? I'm actually planning on buying it just to save shelf space, and I can probably clear a small profit selling my season sets if I wait and get it with the DeepDiscountDVD 20% coupon this fall.

We've just gotten back into Buffy & Angel on DVD last month, we were getting so behind on TiVo'd shows but hopefully we'll make some progress before the fall shows get into full swing. I have to skim a lot of the posts here since we're still about mid-way through S6 of Buffy and S3 of Angel (we generally alternate a disc of each, unless we know there's a specific cross-over). It still amazes me that there are so many people like us who started these shows on DVD and never saw them first-run.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

I SOO want the Chosen collection, but $200 is a lot to lay out. Nice idea with the DDD 20% off coupon -- hope it works with the Chosen collection when the time comes. :up:

EDIT: just saw that it is $140 at DDD. Nice.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

crowfan said:


> I SOO want the Chosen collection, but $200 is a lot to lay out. Nice idea with the DDD 20% off coupon -- hope it works with the Chosen collection when the time comes. :up:
> 
> EDIT: just saw that it is $140 at DDD. Nice.


Exactly, as long as it's in stock it shouldn't be a problem, which puts it around $112. Most of the season sets start in the $20's used on Amazon, it would probably be a wash even if I didn't wait around for the coupon.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I wish they'd release an Angel S1-5 box set - right now you still have to buy each season individually.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

as opposed to most people here, I still have plenty of "new" Buffy (and Angel) episodes ahead of me. I just watched "Primeval" (S04E21) and I really loved it. I think I'm actually glad that this whole "Initiative" business is (apparently) over. I never warmed to the idea (the government knowing about the underworld) in the first place but the last few episodes have been rather good in taking it in a few unexpected directions.


btw, did anybody here go to WorldCon in Anaheim last weekend? my wife (a big George RR Martin fan) dragged me along and I sat in a couple of panels. one of them was with Tim Minear, Loni Peristere, and Jane Espenson. they were a bit full of themselves but not too much. it was Q&A session and at the end, Tim and Loni showed the first 5 minutes of a pilot called "Drive" that they are currently pitching to Fox. the whole sequence (a multiple car chase) consisted of a single cut. it was really impressive.


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## lonwolf615 (May 19, 2004)

canonelan2 said:


> A friend e-mailed me a link...
> 
> http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/2006/07/the_new_buffy_c.html
> 
> ...


Don't know a lot, but here goes: Joss has said this will basically be S8 of Buffy, picking up where the series ended. He is using a lot of ideas he was saving for a projected series of films, one each focusing on Faith, Willow, and Spike. The bad news is that he's apparently given up any hope of making the films, but who knows? Maybe if the comics sell REALLY well...we can always hope. The latest I've read is that the 1st one should be out by the end of the year, and he's already working on the 2nd. The graphic artist doing the 1st says noone is going to see whats coming, there are a lot of surprises... 
Can't really give any links for this because its all from bits and pieces I've read from several sources, and maybe not all of it will turn out accurate.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

peitsche said:


> btw, did anybody here go to WorldCon in Anaheim last weekend? my wife (a big George RR Martin fan) dragged me along and I sat in a couple of panels. one of them was with Tim Minear, Loni Peristere, and Jane Espenson. they were a bit full of themselves but not too much. it was Q&A session and at the end, Tim and Loni showed the first 5 minutes of a pilot called "Drive" that they are currently pitching to Fox. the whole sequence (a multiple car chase) consisted of a single cut. it was really impressive.


WorldCon? anybody? I thought maybe a few locals would go, given the general Sci-Fi, Whedon interests at TCF...


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Today marks the 15th anniversary of "Once More, with Feeling"...still my favorite episode of television ever.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I recently read an article in which the creator of the greatest show in tv history, David Simon (The Wire) was quoted as saying that Buffy The Vampire Slayer was the greatest tv show ever.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I've finally started watching with my kids. They are going to LOVE OMWF.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

purple6816 said:


> Try Netflix or go to block buster and then use dvdshrink.


Things sure change a lot in ten years.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> Today marks the 15th anniversary of "Once More, with Feeling"...still my favorite episode of television ever.


I listen to the soundtack multiple times a week. It's my bedtime music.

-smak-


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I used to sing it to my daughter to get her to sleep.

"She is the one she's such wonderful fun..."


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

---------EPISODE 21---------Who would win in a battle? - MicroPoll - Free Web Polls

If you're not familiar with Bat in the Sun Productions, they film fights between characters that we will never see: Batman vs Wolverine, Darth Vader vs Gandalf, etc. They are also known as Super Power Beat Down, and they do a great job. Looks like they are planning a Buffy vs Blade Beat Down, and you can vote at the link above.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Every Christmas season we drive north up to the CA Central Coast area to spend time with family.

Although Sunnydale is not a real place, there are various clues within the series that it is located somewhere near/north of Santa Barbara: i.e. it's close to the Pacific Ocean, it's only a few hours drive from LA, it's only a few hours from the desert, and, my personal favorite, it's in the area where the Chumash Indians once lived. 

So on my drive up the 101, there is a sign honoring the Chumash tribe, and that always prompts me to sing under my breath,

"...his penis got diseases from a Chumash tribe"


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Every Christmas season we drive north up to the CA Central Coast area to spend time with family.
> 
> Although Sunnydale is not a real place, there are various clues within the series that it is located somewhere near/north of Santa Barbara: i.e. it's close to the Pacific Ocean, it's only a few hours drive from LA, it's only a few hours from the desert, and, my personal favorite, it's in the area where the Chumash Indians once lived.
> 
> ...


Ha. My 3rd-grade daughter is doing a Native American project for school right now, and one of the tribes she could have picked was the Chumash tribe. Thank god she picked a different one, because I would have giggled every time I heard her say the tribe name.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

I think I mentioned in the Netflix thread in Happy Hour that I'm watching "Buffy" for the first time...

So, um, "The Body" -- oh, my God. Devastating.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

trainman said:


> I think I mentioned in the Netflix thread in Happy Hour that I'm watching "Buffy" for the first time...
> 
> So, um, "The Body" -- oh, my God. Devastating.


Yes. 

That's pretty consistently ranked in the top 5 or 10 Buffy episodes.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Article on Yahoo earlier this week about _Pangs_ (S04E08), the Thanksgiving-themed episode featuring the Chumash tribe...


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

This has probably been discussed before, but last night I watched "Once More with Feeling" on Netflix and noticed a whole lot of stuff cut out. Basically Netflix has the edited version of it that aired on repeats. The first airing was an extended version. The edits don't cripple the episode, but a first time viewer doesn't get the full Whedon experience.

I wish there was an easy way to complain to Netflix about this.

BTW, Hulu has the unedited extended version.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

I can't watch the edited version because I know the original one so well...


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Peter000 said:


> This has probably been discussed before, but last night I watched "Once More with Feeling" on Netflix and noticed a whole lot of stuff cut out. Basically Netflix has the edited version of it that aired on repeats. The first airing was an extended version. The edits don't cripple the episode, but a first time viewer doesn't get the full Whedon experience.
> 
> I wish there was an easy way to complain to Netflix about this.


I was going to say that Netflix also deserves scolding for using a widescreen transfer of the show, over Joss' *strong* insistence that his show was framed for 4:3 aspect ratio and should be presented that way. That said, I don't think Netflix is to blame; apparently, that's 20th Century Fox' choice, and Joss wasn't consulted. (Fox is making Buffy widescreen and Joss Whedon isn't happy) I'll grant that the HD transfer is beautiful, but if they're going to screw with the framing and going to remove color grading that was intended to be there, I'll stick with the old SD versions, as they're presented as they were intended.

Edit to clarify: the linked article is about the HD transfer when first broadcast on the Pivot network, not about Netflix. That said, it is reasonable to believe Fox is providing Netflix the same HD transfer that Pivot originally showed.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

trainman said:


> I think I mentioned in the Netflix thread in Happy Hour that I'm watching "Buffy" for the first time...
> 
> So, um, "The Body" -- oh, my God. Devastating.


I still cry every time I see it.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

In the middle of Season 7. With Felicia Day having shown up, I can picture Alyson Hannigan on the phone with her agent: "I thought *I* was supposed to be *the* cute redhead on this show!" (Not really.)


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Buffy is leaving Netflix March 31, 2017. This is the first time I've watched the HD version, its worthwhile, but had stopped in season 6. Now with a deadline, I started S6 E17. "Normal Again" Buffy thinks being in a mental asylum makes more sense than a life with vampires and demons. Great episode, very convincing.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Will Buffy be available for streaming anywhere?


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Peter000 said:


> Will Buffy be available for streaming anywhere?


It's on Hulu.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I wish they'd offer a complete set of Buffy HD discs for sale. I'd buy that day one.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> I wish they'd offer a complete set of Buffy HD discs for sale. I'd buy that day one.


I probably wouldn't. Warner seems adamant about torturing the image into widescreen.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Robin said:


> It's on Hulu.


Thanks! I have it on my Netflix list, but there's no way I'd get to watch much of it before the deadline.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I was planning on re-watching the entire series with my kids soon, and I'm torn about which version to show them. I generally prefer things to be in the original aspect ratio, but I also much prefer the crisp picture of HD. It sounds like I may not have a choice soon. Once Netflix pulls it, will there be any way to watch it in HD? Hulu only has the SD versions, right?


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

S1E1, S2E1, S3E1 are Not widescreen on Hulu. S4E1, S5E1, S6E1, S7E1 Are widescreen on Hulu.

I believe Neflix's is all or almost all widescreen. I'd much rather watch it that way.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Fox is making Buffy widescreen and Joss Whedon isn't happy


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Fox is making Buffy widescreen and Joss Whedon isn't happy


It is pretty bewildering that Fox would do that without Joss's consent? Buffy is a beloved franchise, and it absolutely deserved to be given the kind of respect that shows like Star Trek and Twin Peaks got when they were remastered. Sadly, it looks like we may never see a proper 4:3 HD version of the show.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I really don't care what Joss says, I vastly prefer the widescreen version. And in HD.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> I really don't care what Joss says, I vastly prefer the widescreen version. And in HD.


+1


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Looked at a few more....recap:

S1E1, S2E1, S3E1 are Not widescreen on Hulu.

S4E1, S5E1, S6E1, S7E1 ARE widescreen on Hulu.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

jth tv said:


> Looked at a few more....recap:
> 
> S1E1, S2E1, S3E1 are Not widescreen on Hulu.
> 
> S4E1, S5E1, S6E1, S7E1 ARE widescreen on Hulu.


Are they all HD?


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Peter000 said:


> Are they all HD?


I only have 3Mbps internet which can be slow to adjust to HD. I would say there is a good chance that Hulu S1-3 is good SD, S4-7 is HD.

Hulu is only $12/mth.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Yeah, I have Hulu, but have only looked at the eps on my laptop so can't tell if it's SD or HD. It doesn't seem to be marked in a way that I'm seeing.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

allan said:


> Thanks! I have it on my Netflix list, but there's no way I'd get to watch much of it before the deadline.


Yeah, I was bummed when I saw that since I'm watching with my kids but we don't have much TV time so it's slow going. No way I'm going to try a marathon. Very happy to see it's on Hulu.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Except the widescreen presentation screws up all kinds of things. My earlier link had several technical examples; Whedon himself gave some very compelling dramatic examples (e.g., in The Body there's a scene where the widescreen image completely destroys the emotion of the moment) back when the DVDs first came out, but I can't find a link to it with all the articles that have been done in light of the new HD butcherings.

They knew exactly what the image would look like on TV, and they very carefully arranged things to fit within that image. AFAIC, widescreen presentation of a 4:3 image is as bad as a pan-and-scan presentation of a widescreen image. OAR rules!


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except the widescreen presentation screws up all kinds of things. My earlier link had several technical examples; Whedon himself gave some very compelling dramatic examples (e.g., in The Body there's a scene where the widescreen image completely destroys the emotion of the moment) back when the DVDs first came out, but I can't find a link to it with all the articles that have been done in light of the new HD butcherings.
> 
> They knew exactly what the image would look like on TV, and they very carefully arranged things to fit within that image. AFAIC, widescreen presentation of a 4:3 image is as bad as a pan-and-scan presentation of a widescreen image. OAR rules!


Disagree about the "destroys the emotional moment." Watched "The Body" in WS and it was still very compelling. Some of the time during the original run I felt at times the framing was TOO claustrophobic. And watching it on a WS I find the pillarboxing distracting at times.

And it's not a "butchering." There are some problems here and there (and can be cherry picked to make the conversion seem much worse), but the vast majority of it is fine.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> I really don't care what Joss says, I vastly prefer the widescreen version. And in HD.


If the show was filmed with 16:9 in mind, then I would agree with you. We would simply be getting an expanded version of the shots. The framing might suffer a bit in certain scenes, but I would still prefer it to the softer SD version. Unfortunately, what we got is a complete mess. I did some research, and it appears that they screwed up in all sorts of ways with the conversion. The color and brightness are way off in many scenes, and the cropping is all over the place. There are some scenes where you actually see *less* in the HD version, not to mention the fact that some of the shots have equipment, crew, and even edges of the sets visible. It's a tough task to convert a 4:3 show into 16:9, and to do it right requires a lot of care and skill. It seems like the people who worked on this project had neither. This is unfortunately a cautionary tale of what can happen when you don't involve any of the original people from the show.

Check out this video ...


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I've heard all about that stuff, and I've done my own watching and evaluation and it hardly bothers me at all. it's not like I'm jumping to conclusions and don't know what I'm talking about.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> AFAIC, widescreen presentation of a 4:3 image is as bad as a pan-and-scan presentation of a widescreen image. OAR rules!


I tend to agree with this, but there are some exceptions. It is possible to successfully convert a 4:3 show to widescreen and not have the end result suck. The Wire is a perfect example. I think it looks incredible in 16:9 HD, and I would never recommend the SD version over it. They took extreme care when doing the conversion, and it shows. Key people from the show were involved in the process, and they made every effort to remain as faithful as they could to the original edits. When cropping for widescreen yielded unwanted things in the shot, they digitally removed them. Now* that's* how you do a conversion!


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> I've heard all about that stuff, and I've done my own watching and evaluation and it hardly bothers me at all. it's not like I'm jumping to conclusions and don't know what I'm talking about.


I hope you didn't take what I was saying the wrong way. If you enjoy the widescreen version more than the original 4:3 version, then by all means you should watch it. You are certainly not wrong for liking it more. It just gets me so mad because they could have done such a better job with it. I consider Buffy to be one of, if not the best shows in the history of television. It warranted the royal treatment, and it didn't get it.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

They could have easily done a HD transfer, while still maintaining the 4:3 aspect ratio. There's nothing requiring widescreen to do an HD presentation.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

LoadStar said:


> They could have easily done a HD transfer, while still maintaining the 4:3 aspect ratio. There's nothing requiring widescreen to do an HD presentation.


Exactly. Either do the widescreen conversion right, or just keep it in 4:3. And if the source material doesn't lend itself to a widescreen presentation, then don't even bother. In this particular case, it seems like they probably could have pulled off an excellent widescreen transfer, but they decided to cut corners and wound up with a crappy product. Our only hope is that they fix it before releasing it on blu-ray.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gweempose said:


> Exactly. Either do the widescreen conversion right, or just keep it in 4:3.


And I would argue in this case there is no "right" widescreen conversion...it was very carefully and deliberately framed for 4:3.

I'm repeating myself, but it seems strange to me that so many years after the pan-and-scan craze died out, we're re-litigating the issue of OAR.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And I would argue in this case there is no "right" widescreen conversion...it was very carefully and deliberately framed for 4:3.
> 
> I'm repeating myself, but it seems strange to me that so many years after the pan-and-scan craze died out, we're re-litigating the issue of OAR.


Deep down inside I know you're right, and I'm generally a big proponent of watching stuff in its intended aspect ratio. I can't deny, however, that there is something deeply satisfying about seeing a show that was previously only available in 4:3 suddenly filling up my entire 16:9 screen. I can't explain it. It's just a visceral reaction. I absolutely hated watching stuff in pan-and-scan back in the day. It's one of the main reasons I invested so heavily in laserdiscs. That being said, I can't deny that I prefer the widescreen version of shows like Friends and The Wire. They look great, and I don't feel like I am making a sacrifice the way I did with P&S. I was hoping something similar could be achieved with Buffy.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I signed up to receive Pivot TV before it's demise a while back. One of the main reasons I got it was because they were airing Buffy in HD and 16:9 ratio. I recorded the entire series again before the channel folded, but I haven't found the time to watch any of it yet.


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