# Lost - 1/31 - Beginning of the End



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

....it's back

Wanted more, but I'm sure they'll deliver over the next few episodes


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Other thoughts:

Why are there only 'six' as in the Oceanic Six?
What was Charlie referring to?

Why do they assume that the other people are evil just b/c they're not with Penny?


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## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

Fantastic hour of TV, Lost is back :up:


Oceanic 6 - Hurley, Jack, Kate, ? ? ?


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I was satisfied! Great episode, IMHO. A "game changer" just like the finale last year. It's clear that the "Oceanic Six" made some decision to be able to return and that at least some some of them are still left there. I suspect that decision will be the theme going forward along with Dharma (if we can assume Lance Riddick who came to visit Hurley at the institution is from Dharma) trying to determine what really happened on the island.

Was surprised they opened with a Hurley episode and that we saw Jacob again so soon.

I wonder, is whoever was in the coffin in last year's finale one of the six?


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Why do they assume that the other people are evil just b/c they're not with Penny?


'Cause Naomi said Penny hired her, which she obviously did not.

So, they're lying.

Liars are bad


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

So there's a big secret. Jack said (in the finale) "I'm tired of lying" and he came to see if Hurley was going to tell.

Where do you think the finale flash forwards fall on the timeline with the scene with Hurley in the mental institution? I think it must be earlier, with the finale scenes being the last before they "go back" or somehow change what happened ...


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

jehma said:


> So there's a big secret. Jack said (in the finale) "I'm tired of lying" and he came to see if Hurley was going to tell.
> 
> Where do you think the finale flash forwards fall on the timeline with the scene with Hurley in the mental institution? I think it must be earlier, with the finale scenes being the last before they "go back" or somehow change what happened ...


The finale must have been after Hurley in the institution... that's why Jack mentioned he was thinking of growing a beard.

Jack was drinking (in the very beginning of the ep) but obviously wasn't yet as bad as we saw him during the finale.

Hurley's feeling guilty now... Jack hasn't quite caught up to him... yet. From the finale, it's clear he will.


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

Right, the "flash forwards" apparently will not be in chronological order. Before the crash Jack was not much (if ever) a drinker. Hurley saying "It" wants us back was quite interesting, why couldn't this have been a 2 hour season premiere?


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I loved it that Jack actually pulled the trigger. Loved the look on Locke's face.


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

I for one find the flash-forwards much more interesting than the flashbacks. I hope they continue using them!


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I wonder if Jack sees his father the same way Hurley sees Charlie. This would help explain his drunken tirade in the halls of the hospital to the new chief of surgery.


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

cwoody222 said:


> 'Cause Naomi said Penny hired her, which she obviously did not.
> 
> So, they're lying.
> 
> Liars are bad


Good point, I had forgotten about that.

Solid episode. I wish this season was more than 8 episodes though! It's interesting that some people from both camps at the end got out alive...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

It's interesting that we know six people leave the island, that three of them are Jack, Hurley, and Kate, and that in the "civil war" that seems to be brewing, Jack/Kate and Hurley are on opposite sides. Obviously, a lot's going to happen before The Six get off the island!

So I guess the rest of the series is the stuff that happens before they get off the island, the stuff that happens while they're off the island, and the stuff that happens after they return?


Todd said:


> Solid episode. I wish this season was more than 8 episodes though!


The season is 16 episodes, but when we see the "back eight" is an open question. The producers are upset that ABC is showing the first eight now, since the whole sixteen were designed to be seen in consecutive weeks...


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

In case anybody missed it, when Hurley was in the interrogation room and a Charlie-like figure swam up to the glass... His had had "They need you" written on it.


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

maharg18 said:


> I for one find the flash-forwards much more interesting than the flashbacks. I hope they continue using them!


I'm guessing it will all be flash-forwards from here on. It's what they meant by "getting off the island isn't the end". I like them also.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Well I guess the flash forwards will allow grown up Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllt to come back to the show.


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## billboard_NE (May 18, 2005)

Shakhari said:


> I loved it that Jack actually pulled the trigger. Loved the look on Locke's face.


I was starting to get sick of Jack, but after he pulled the trigger he has his man card back!


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's interesting that we know six people leave the island, that three of them are Jack, Hurley, and Kate, and that in the "civil war" that seems to be brewing, Jack/Kate and Hurley are on opposite sides. Obviously, a lot's going to happen before The Six get off the island!
> 
> So I guess the rest of the series is the stuff that happens before they get off the island, the stuff that happens while they're off the island, and the stuff that happens after they return?


Yes, that's what I was thinking. In last season's finale, Jack is convinced they have to go back, but not Kate. I wonder if she gets to that point as well.

BTW - this was my first Lost in HD :up:


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's interesting that we know six people leave the island, that three of them are Jack, Hurley, and Kate, and that in the "civil war" that seems to be brewing, Jack/Kate and Hurley are on opposite sides. Obviously, a lot's going to happen before The Six get off the island!


I wonder if the man in the coffin counts as one of the "Oceanic Six". Probably not though. I'm guessing it is someone who knows how to get back to the island. Perhaps someone from the boat.


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

Mike Farrington said:


> I wonder if the man in the coffin counts as one of the "Oceanic Six". Probably not though. I'm guessing it is someone who knows how to get back to the island. Perhaps someone from the boat.


Excellent point!!!


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

ireland967 said:


> Fantastic hour of TV, Lost is back :up:
> 
> Oceanic 6 - Hurley, Jack, Kate, ? ? ?


Rose and Bernard stayed with Jack, so they are possibilities. But who knows? If so that leaves one more.


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## emandbri (Jul 5, 2004)

Who is the actor that played the guy at the end? He is totally CUTE! IMDB wasn't helpful. 

It annoyed me that they totally changed Claire's hair, it was curly in the season finale. If they want to change it that is fine but not in the same scene.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

emandbri said:


> Who is the actor that played the guy at the end? He is totally CUTE! IMDB wasn't helpful.
> 
> It annoyed me that they totally changed Claire's hair, it was curly in the season finale. If they want to change it that is fine but not in the same scene.


Isn't it Elliot from E.T.?


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

emandbri said:


> Who is the actor that played the guy at the end? He is totally CUTE! IMDB wasn't helpful.
> 
> It annoyed me that they totally changed Claire's hair, it was curly in the season finale. If they want to change it that is fine but not in the same scene.


Have you been to this site?: Lostpedia
Maybe the answer to your first question lies there.


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## michad (Sep 9, 2002)

That was Henry Thomas.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

skinnyjm said:


> Right, the "flash forwards" apparently will not be in chronological order. Before the crash Jack was not much (if ever) a drinker. Hurley saying "It" wants us back was quite interesting, why couldn't this have been a 2 hour season premiere?


Uhhhh...the writers are on strike. They need to spread them out. In a few months they are going to have NOTHING.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Just brainstorming here...

Could Michael and Walt be 2 of the 6?


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

That wasn't Henry Thomas-that was Jeremey Davies from Saving Private Ryan.

FACTS, PEOPLE!!!


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## devlindark (Jul 20, 2005)

for the person who is in the casket
Judging by the way Kate reacted it has to be either Ben, which i doubt
but I would think more so that it would end up being Sawyer because the guys said there was no service no family or friends and when jack told her about it she said why would I go! 

This is going to be a great season, can't wait for more...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

loubob57 said:


> Rose and Bernard stayed with Jack, so they are possibilities. But who knows? If so that leaves one more.


But Hurley DIDN'T stay with Jack, and he is clearly one of the Six. So which "side" they're on "now" has nothing to do with which side they end up on.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Could it be Hurley in the coffin? When Hurly goes with Locke, he says to JAck, I am going with my friend. Even though we saw the flash forward of Jack playing hoops with Hurley, it was more to see "if he will tell". At the moment Hurley said what he did about going with Locke, maybe Jack realizes that Hurley is no longer his friend. And the person is the coffin is "neither friend nor family".........

Lost is back!!!!!!!!!!

Could the guy who came to see Hurley be Walt?

On the Island, people are immortal, or so we think. IIRC, one of the convention wisdom theories is that due to the properties of the Island, time goes more slowly on the Island. So it is conceivable that much mroe time passes for anyone who gets off, than those on. So if Walt did get off, it is possible who aged quite a bit.......

Doubt it, but I love that we get to try and figure it out again......


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Huh, and I thought it was Fisher Stevens since I saw his name in the credits. Who did he play?

(just googled, wow, is my memory of what Fisher looks like off!  )


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

jlb said:


> Could it be Hurley in the coffin? When Hurly goes with Locke, he says to JAck, I am going with my friend. Even though we saw the flash forward of Jack playing hoops with Hurley, it was more to see "if he will tell". At the moment Hurley said what he did about going with Locke, maybe Jack realizes that Hurley is no longer his friend. And the person is the coffin is "neither friend nor family".........
> 
> Lost is back!!!!!!!!!!


But why wouldn't Kate go?

Maybe before his death Hurly "rats" them all out?

Nah, I'm still thinking the person is the casket is more of a big player like Ben, Locke or some other Other or Dharma person we haven't met yet.

Do we know it's a man? Could it be Juliet?


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

I don't think it was Hurley in the coffin. Not to be rude, but the coffin wasn't big enough for a man of his stature. Just stating faces. My guess is Ben or Locke.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

jlb said:


> Could it be Hurley in the coffin? When Hurly goes with Locke, he says to JAck, I am going with my friend. Even though we saw the flash forward of Jack playing hoops with Hurley, it was more to see "if he will tell". At the moment Hurley said what he did about going with Locke, maybe Jack realizes that Hurley is no longer his friend.


The "friend" that Hurley was referring to was Charlie. Your post sounds like you think he meant Locke so I'm just clarifying.


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

aadam101 said:


> Uhhhh...the writers are on strike. They need to spread them out. In a few months they are going to have NOTHING.


Uhhhh...Yeah, I know.
I was implying that It was so good that 1 hour seemed to go by too quickly.
So I will just have to watch it again.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

maharg18 said:


> I for one find the flash-forwards much more interesting than the flashbacks. I hope they continue using them!


What do you mean? There are no flash-forwards, the flashbacks are just on the island now.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Where are Richard and the Others. The other Others. 

They were on their way to 'the temple'. I wonder if people landing will make a difference. 

People sure are tromping all over the island. Moving pretty quickly too.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

skinnyjm said:


> I'm guessing it will all be flash-forwards from here on. It's what they meant by "getting off the island isn't the end". I like them also.


What's this talk about "flash forwards"? I just assumed that the "main setting" of the show is right now when they are off the island, so the flashbacks are back to the island, not the other way around.

Not that it matters much, the effect is the same, but I still see the flashbacks as flashbacks.

I LOVED this episode, was bummed when it was over. I'm dying to find out why only six people got off the island, and how it was people from both factions.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Did anyone watch _Eli Stone_ and catch what the announcement from Oceanic Air was?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

There are still people alive and on in the Island in trouble.

The Lawyer, "Are _they_ still alive?"

Charlie, "_They_ Need you."

Hurley and Jack's conversation. "It" (the Island?) wants us to come back. And are they going to tell what?


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> And are they going to tell what?


Maybe the big secret is that they know some people are still alive on the island.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

My guess is it's Michael in the coffin.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

That rocked.

:up:

It feels like months since I've watched something good on TV.


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

So did "Jacob" look like Christian Shepherd to anyone else but me?


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

MickeS said:


> What's this talk about "flash forwards"? I just assumed that the "main setting" of the show is right now when they are off the island, so the flashbacks are back to the island, not the other way around.
> 
> Not that it matters much, the effect is the same, but I still see the flashbacks as flashbacks.
> 
> I LOVED this episode, was bummed when it was over. I'm dying to find out why only six people got off the island, and how it was people from both factions.


No the main setting is still the island. The flash forwards have the exact same format as the flashbacks did, all jumpy in time and telling one person's story. The island story is much more linear within each episode and week to week, and provides the backbone to the whole series. And deal more with the whole group rather than just one person.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

stalemate said:


> Did anyone watch _Eli Stone_ and catch what the announcement from Oceanic Air was?


I saw the ad (didn't watch the show). It was an Oceanic Air advertisement about winning a golden ticket. They showed their URL FlyOceanicAir.com. But there was someome trying to "hack" into the signal. Trying to tell people that "they are lying to you", etc. It quickly overlaid a URL of find815.com.

There was also intercut footage of underwater dive footage of an Oceanic airliner.

Then, oddly, one of the last images appeared to be someone holding their hands over their bare chest.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Just because they're referred to as the "Oceanic Six' doesn't mean that only six got off the island.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

stalemate said:


> Did anyone watch _Eli Stone_ and catch what the announcement from Oceanic Air was?


It was a commercial for Oceanic Airlines offering a "Golden Ticket", but the ad was getting cut into and disrupted by someone who's trying to find Flight 815, and the Oceanic website gets cut over by "Find815.com".

It wasn't identical, but it was similar to the video on this site (which was the Oceanic website in the commercial): Flyoceanicair.com


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

nrrhgreg said:


> So did "Jacob" look like Christian Shepherd to anyone else but me?


Did anyone catch that horrible painting of the dog? It belongs in MOBA. The dog's arms were freakishly long.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Mike Farrington said:


> Did anyone catch that horrible painting of the dog? It belongs in MOBA. The dog's arms were freakishly long.


And apparently, it was a painting of a dog with ARMS!!!!!


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

nrrhgreg said:


> So did "Jacob" look like Christian Shepherd to anyone else but me?


Yes, the person in the rocking chair in the cabin that Hurley looked into, looked like Jack's (and Claire's) dad. Presumably, that was Jacob.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So who are the other 3?

Claire and her baby as 2?
Jin and Sun?
Bernard and Rose?

Maybe just one of a pair?

Would Desmond or Ben count, as they weren't on Oceanic?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

stalemate said:


> And apparently, it was a painting of a dog with ARMS!!!!!


Ok, well... front legs. Trust me, look at the painting. They look like arms.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> So who are the other 3?
> 
> Claire and her baby as 2?
> Jin and Sun?
> ...


Michael and Walt!


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

getbak said:


> Yes, the person in the rocking chair in the cabin that Hurley looked into, looked like Jack's (and Claire's) dad. Presumably, that was Jacob.


I was even watching in HD and I was doing good to make out a silhouette of a person. To say it looked like someone baffles me.


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

Don't think this is a spoiler since it aired, but if so sorry. Here's a screen cap of "Jacob", brighten up for ya.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

nrrhgreg said:


> Don't think this is a spoiler since it aired, but if so sorry. Here's a screen cap of "Jacob", brighten up for ya.


Thanks!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Has Hurley ever seen Christian Sheperd?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I have a feeling Jacob can take the shape of whomever he pleases, and Christian Shephard is a common form.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

nrrhgreg said:


> Don't think this is a spoiler since it aired, but if so sorry. Here's a screen cap of "Jacob", brighten up for ya.


and from last year


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## tgmii (Feb 21, 2002)

I count only left unaccounted for if there are 6.

Jack 
Jin 
Sun
Hurley
Kate
--?--


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

cherry ghost said:


> and from last year


Thanks!


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

tgmii said:


> I count only left unaccounted for if there are 6.
> 
> Jack
> Jin
> ...


What makes you think Sun & Jin made it off? Desmond's precognitive abilities says that Claire and Aaron get off the island, but that isn't written in stone. I don't remember any such hints that Jin and Sun get off.


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

This TV show certainly is thought provoking, something rare in television these days!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> Just because they're referred to as the "Oceanic Six' doesn't mean that only six got off the island.


It does to me.


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## Waldorf (Oct 4, 2002)

Assuming Michael and Walt made it... Jack, Hurley, and Kate... and Desmond says Claire and Aaron make it... Maybe they don't count Aaron as the "Oceanic 6" because he's so young?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Scenes like the rocking chair in the cabin always freak me out. Just looking at the pictures above gives me the creeps.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Just because they're referred to as the "Oceanic Six' doesn't mean that only six got off the island.


I'm thinking it's the 6 that the public knows about.


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

MickeS said:


> What's this talk about "flash forwards"? I just assumed that the "main setting" of the show is right now when they are off the island, so the flashbacks are back to the island, not the other way around.
> 
> Not that it matters much, the effect is the same, but I still see the flashbacks as flashbacks.
> 
> I LOVED this episode, was bummed when it was over. I'm dying to find out why only six people got off the island, and how it was people from both factions.


Well, Yes, I see your point. 
And I agree, it was over too soon, see post 8, 26 & 36


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

Plus, It's only a matter of time before DevdogAZ replies and makes us all look bad!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> No the main setting is still the island. The flash forwards have the exact same format as the flashbacks did, all jumpy in time and telling one person's story.


Good point.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> Huh, and I thought it was Fisher Stevens since I saw his name in the credits. Who did he play?
> 
> (just googled, wow, is my memory of what Fisher looks like off!  )


Fisher Stevens was the voice on the phone.
I'm assuming that he'll make an appearence in an upcoming episode.

Interesting that Hurley is now seeing Jacob and the cabin (which seemed to move as well).
Wonder how Ben is going to react if he finds out that Hurley can see Jacob as well.

Obviously, the Oceanic 6 have to keep the secret of the island. It was probably the price they had to pay to leave the island.
Perhaps the other 815 survivors would be killed if they talked.

As for the Six, my guess:
Jack
Kate
Hurley
Sawyer
Aaron
Claire

Wild thought, was Aaron the "he" Kate was refering to at the airport?


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Creepy Jacob scene. Hurley ran as fast as he could from the cabin and when he opened his eyes-bam. Right back where he started.

Oh-and I loved the episode. Very emotional scenes with Hurley. Very well executed.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Loved it!

If Sun doesn't get off the island she'll be dead in a month (says Juliet). So, she has the most incentive to go with Jack and is one of the most logical to be a member of the six. Of course, that doesn't mean she _is_ a member of the six!


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

Hurley said <something like> "Dude, I'm sorry I went with Locke and didn't stay with you". Is this another example of Live Together, Die Alone?

I don't think the person in the coffin is any of the Oceanic 815 people (or Juliet). When Jack says that person is neither family, nor friend, I think he means it. No matter what happens/happened on the island, I think Jack would still consider them all friends (or would have said something like "we used to be friends").


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

So, was Charlie really there when he was talking with Hurley??


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> So, was Charlie really there when he was talking with Hurley??


No, Charley was all in Hurley's head.

That was my impression, anyway.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

After watching this episode I couldn't help but wonder, did I enjoy it so much because it was really good, or did I enjoy it based on the fact that I hadn't had a new episode of Lost in so long?

Either way I really enjoyed it. I think this is the most reactions we've gotten out of any death on Lost.

When Hurley saw Jacob and dropped his torch, I fully expected the whole thing to go up in flames.

Here, Hurley tries to convince Jack they'll have to go back; in the season finale, it's Jack trying to convince Kate. Maybe the last 3 of the Oceanic Six are Michael, Waaaaaaaaaalt, and Vincent... Vincent will be the last one who needs to be convinced.

Greg


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

gchance said:


> After watching this episode I couldn't help but wonder, did I enjoy it so much because it was really good, or did I enjoy it based on the fact that I hadn't had a new episode of Lost in so long?


Both, for me.


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## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

Did they just blow my mind? I think they just blew my mind!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> No, Charley was all in Hurley's head.
> 
> That was my impression, anyway.


Didn't another patient point Charlie out to Hurley, though? Or was that a different visitor...


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

laststarfighter said:


> Did they just blow my mind? I think they just blew my mind!


Yes. Same here. :up:


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

hefe said:


> Didn't another patient point Charlie out to Hurley, though? Or was that a different visitor...


I thought it to be those who died in the past of "815 people" are able to come back, either before the crash or after. I expect Mr Ecko may return as well, for example. But I don't know, who does at this point?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Just wanted to say great episode.. More comments after a rewatch tomorrow.

..Jeff


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## jpwoof (May 19, 2004)

can someone please sum this up for me in 3 sentences? what happened to michael and walt? and who is jacob?


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

jpwoof said:


> can someone please sum this up for me in 3 sentences? what happened to michael and walt? and who is jacob?


We don't know.
We don't know.
We don't know.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Great episode.

The amazing thing about this show, is that for every episode before last year's finale, we were all assuming that the final Lost episode would be them triumphantly getting off the island, and now it seems that the final Lost episode will be them triumphantly getting back on the island.

Whoa!

-smak-


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

I'm sure the fact that Dominic Monaghan is still listed in the main cast and wasn't a guest star is interesting to some people. A show will sometimes do this (put previous main characters in the opening credits) but Charlie was clearly killed in the finale. I'd wonder if his death and all the press of him leaving the show was actually a red herring akin to another show on a different channel. Yeah, he's dead but that doesn't we won't see Charlie again.

This was a great episode. I didn't catch that the 'present' time with Hurley in the institution was way before the last scene in the finale with Jack and Kate. In that scene, I would say Jack and Kate are the only remaining survivors. 

If the 'present' time episodes are going to cover the lives of the oceanic 'six', what are they going to do with the other two episodes. There are seven episodes left but five survivors with stories to tell - if you don't count the finale from last season.

As for Jacob, are we really supposed to see him? Those pictures are screen caps of the show and then someone used Photoshop (or something like it) to enhance the picture so that we can see his face. That clearly isn't something the producers intended for most viewers to do.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Sirius Black said:


> If the 'present' time episodes are going to cover the lives of the oceanic 'six', what are they going to do with the other two episodes. There are seven episodes left but five survivors with stories to tell - if you don't count the finale from last season.


Do we know that flashbacks are completely gone? I just thought that flashforwards were an option now, not a guarantee for every episode.


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## tgmii (Feb 21, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> What makes you think Sun & Jin made it off? Desmond's precognitive abilities says that Claire and Aaron get off the island, but that isn't written in stone. I don't remember any such hints that Jin and Sun get off.


In the episode where Jack is shone flying back home (or flying somewhere in a flash forward) Jin and Sun are sitting behind him. about 2 rows to the left.

Tom


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

tgmii said:


> In the episode where Jack is shone flying back home (or flying somewhere in a flash forward) Jin and Sun are sitting behind him. about 2 rows to the left.
> 
> Tom


You sure?


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## sshedlock (May 14, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> You sure?


I thought that was true in the pilot.I don't remember that in any flashback.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MickeS said:


> Good point.


On the other hand, the "flashback transitions" go from the present to the island now, instead of from the island to the present...


spikedavis said:


> Creepy Jacob scene. Hurley ran as fast as he could from the cabin and when he opened his eyes-bam. Right back where he started.


No, actually...he was in a different place. The cabin moved. (At first it was in a forest, then it was in a clearing.) Hurley was seeing things again...OR WAS HE?!?


----------



## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

I don't understand the whole "Charlie" angle back in the flash-forward (or present time, whatever). Another patient clearly sees Charlie, mentions that Hurley better watch out, because someone is, essentially, stalking him, and then Hurley looks over and sees Charlie. So, both people were able to see Charlie. What is that?! Is there some presence (or Jacob?) that can project themselves off the island and appear on the mainland? Is it the Black Smoke/monster making itself appear to Hurley?


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## caslu (Jun 24, 2003)

So, in the past we've theorized that the 'monster' can assume the shape of different people (i.e. Jack's father, Mr. Eko's brother). So, now that it seems that Jacob is Jack's father does that mean Jacob and the 'monster' are one and the same? That would explain the moving cabin since it can probably assume any shape it chooses... still doesn't explain what the 'monster' really is...

Also, has anyone offered a guess on who was in the cabin with Jacob? (if anyone's offered a theory on this one then I've missed it).


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

jwehman said:


> I don't understand the whole "Charlie" angle back in the flash-forward (or present time, whatever). Another patient clearly sees Charlie, mentions that Hurley better watch out, because someone is, essentially, stalking him, and then Hurley looks over and sees Charlie. So, both people were able to see Charlie. What is that?! Is there some presence (or Jacob?) that can project themselves off the island and appear on the mainland? Is it the Black Smoke/monster making itself appear to Hurley?


Easy explanation: Hurley also imagined that someone pointed out Charlie to him.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Here's something I thought of.

The public (in the future) believes that the Oceanic Six were the only people to survive _the crash_. The 6 haven't told anyone about anything on the Island. Maybe the public doesn't even know about the island.

Anna Lucia's partner asked Hurley if he met her in the airport or on the plane. He didn't ask him if he met her while on the Island before she died.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

stalemate said:


> The "friend" that Hurley was referring to was Charlie. Your post sounds like you think he meant Locke so I'm just clarifying.


I know that. I inferred that by Hurley saying Charlie was his friend that Jack also was not. And it is possible in the "time" between getting off the Island and whenever Hurley dies (using the assumption it is him in the coffin) that he could have lost weight.

Hurley said to Bernard (?) that when he gets off the Island he won't have any of his money since everyone thought he was dead, thus he would be "Free". Someone who has a ton of stress lifted off of them after a long time often feel "free" and use that to make big "changes" in their lives. Maybe Hurley ends up slimming down. Or, maybe he dies a horrible death and what's left of him fits in the coffin.

All that being said, I go back to my original thought that it might be Locke in there.......

I can't wait for next Thursday!!!!!!


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jwehman said:


> I don't understand the whole "Charlie" angle back in the flash-forward (or present time, whatever). Another patient clearly sees Charlie, mentions that Hurley better watch out, because someone is, essentially, stalking him, and then Hurley looks over and sees Charlie. So, both people were able to see Charlie. What is that?! Is there some presence (or Jacob?) that can project themselves off the island and appear on the mainland? Is it the Black Smoke/monster making itself appear to Hurley?


I see four possibilities, here:

1. It's all in Hurley's head. It's not really Charlie, it's just a manifestation of Charlie from Hurley's own subconscious. If that's the case, the physical slap that Charlie gave Hurley to prove his 'reality' is interesting, as is the fact that Hurley asked Charlie questions about what happened leading to his death ("did you know you were going to die, etc.,") and Charlie answered with what we the viewer know to be the truth but which Hurley would not have known if it was just his own subconscious making up answers.

2. It's the smoke monster, manifesting itself as Charlie, just as it has manifested itself as the horse, Jack's dad, and many other forms on the island. This would be interesting, because it would mean that the smoke monster can manifest itself off the island.

3. It's the smoke monster, but it is not manifesting itself off the island... because Hurley isn't really off the island. He just thinks he is, but we'll later learn that they never actually did leave the island, after all.

4. It really is Charlie's ghost.

Personally, I think I'm leaning toward #1

Other thoughts:

1. Hurley's conversation with the police detective in the station, after he was apprehended, was very interesting. The detective mentioned Ana Lucia and asked Hurley if maybe Hurley had talked with her "before the flight." To me, this means that the detective (and, by extension, the rest of the world) believe that the only survivors of the flight were the Oceanic 6. Not just that they were the only to be rescued, but that they were the only to survive the crash. Why else would the detective not have even considered the possibility that Hurley had known her from the island, after the crash?

{Edited to add: Turtleboy beat me to the punch. Darn my maximum verbosity.}

2. The lawyer that visited Hurley in the institution was creepy. Thought it was interesting that his last name was Abbadon.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Here's something I thought of.
> 
> The public (in the future) believes that the Oceanic Six were the only people to survive _the crash_. The 6 haven't told anyone about anything on the Island. Maybe the public doesn't even know about the island.
> 
> Anna Lucia's partner asked Hurley if he met her in the airport or on the plane. He didn't ask him if he met her while on the Island before she died.


I was just thinking about the same thing. It seems that they might be hiding the fact that anyone else had even survived the initial crash. I think he asked Hurley something along the lines of "Maybe you met her on the plane before it went down?" I'm not sure of the exact wording.


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## Indiana627 (Jan 24, 2003)

Finally must see TV again on Thursday nights!

What a great show. I had forgotten how good it was but then watched about 10 minutes of the season 3 finale Wed night and just couldn't believe how good this show really is.

And I must say, I think this is one of the best looking HD shows on TV. Just beautiful. Of course the location is a big advantage to that.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stalemate said:


> Easy explanation: Hurley also imagined that someone pointed out Charlie to him.


Slightly more difficult explanation: The person pointing somebody out to Hurley was pointing to somebody other than Charlie (I was expecting the fake lawyer; perhaps he or somebody else was really there, staring at Hurley, and Hurley didn't notice because he "saw" Charlie).

On the other hand, Charlie made a point to say repeatedly that he really was there. For some reason, it seems to me that it would be unfair for that to be a lie...


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Its Ben in the coffin...here are my thoughts:

1)Ben said he was raised on the island....no friends off the island
2)His extended family wouldn't know him since he grew up away
3)Jacks drawn to the funeral, but no one else seems to be
4)Kate is almost repulsed at the obit

Gotta be Ben....if he's one of the Six (would he be?), does that mean there are only five now?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Its Ben in the coffin...here are my thoughts:
> 
> 1)Ben said he was raised on the island....no friends off the island
> 2)His extended family wouldn't know him since he grew up away
> ...


I think all six are the _Oceanic_ Six, meaning people on the flight

Jack
Kate
Hurley

My guesses:
Jin and Sun and Sayid.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Its Ben in the coffin...here are my thoughts:
> 
> 1)Ben said he was raised on the island....no friends off the island
> 2)His extended family wouldn't know him since he grew up away
> ...


I think it's him too. He would die if he left the island.
He might not be one of the Oceanic Six, nothing says he has to be.
Then again, didn't Jack see the news about the death in a newspaper article? That would mean it was someone with a modicum of celebrity who died... and the Oceanic Six seem to have that, while Ben wouldn't.

Then again AGAIN, they could have said he was on the plane.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> On the other hand, Charlie made a point to say repeatedly that he really was there. For some reason, it seems to me that it would be unfair for that to be a lie...


Unfair to Hurley or unfair to the audience?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I'd say that Jin and Sun have to be a part of the 6 since Sun would've died if she gave birth on the island. So while other's might've wanted to stay, Jin and Sun couldn't...


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> If the 'present' time episodes are going to cover the lives of the oceanic 'six', what are they going to do with the other two episodes. There are seven episodes left but five survivors with stories to tell - if you don't count the finale from last season.


Are they really going to use the same routine as Reunion. Reveal the identity of one of the Oceanic 6 each week.

(BTW, speaking of Reunion, can I just add Burn In Hell Fox! for old time sake. )


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

jpwoof said:


> can someone please sum this up for me in 3 sentences? what happened to michael and walt? and who is jacob?





balboa dave said:


> We don't know.
> We don't know.
> We don't know.


Well, yeah, but what we DO know:

Michael and Walt left the island on a boat (with navigation) given to them by Ben in exchange for Michael's help. We haven't seen them since.

Ben claims that Jacob is the "true" person in charge of the Others. We know that he can't be/can barely be seen, and supposedly only Ben can see him amongst the Others.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I'd say that Jin and Sun have to be a part of the 6 since Sun would've died if she gave birth on the island. So while other's might've wanted to stay, Jin and Sun couldn't...


If it all came down to a simple choice, then sure. But there's a lot of guilt over "what they did," so I'm guessing it's not that simple.


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Is there ANY chance that Michael and Walt are 'affiliated' with the boat people who claim they're associated with Penny? I know it's a stretch, but just wondering...


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

stalemate said:


> I was just thinking about the same thing. It seems that they might be hiding the fact that anyone else had even survived the initial crash. I think he asked Hurley something along the lines of "Maybe you met her on the plane before it went down?" I'm not sure of the exact wording.


Maybe time passes differently on the island than off and the 90 days on the island seemed like no time at all to everyone else, so they couldn't reveal they were "on the island". We know there's something odd about time there "you do remember birthdays, don't you?"


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

Hurley didn't just say he didn't meet Anna on the plane, he said he didn't know her.

I think the Oceanic 6 are the only ones to have gotten off the island of the losties. Ben wouldn't count.

So we have:
1. Jack
2. Kate
3. Hurley
4. ? Coffin person (don't think it was hurley)
5. ? Claire
6. ? Aaron

I don't think Locke would have left the island. He likes it there. 

But maybe not Claire and Aaron, we only know they make it to the Helicopter. Possible they only make it to the ship, or the new peoples base.

Benard/Rose? I think Rose has to stay on the island to stay healthy.
Sawyer? I think he might have left w/ Kate and could be one of the 6.
Sayid wouldn't have left the island. He wouldn't have abondoned them.
Jin/Sun possible. But assume her death was one of the horrible things that happens.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

A very interesting theory here. If you click on the episode title further up on the page, you'll see other theories.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

tgmii said:


> In the episode where Jack is shone flying back home (or flying somewhere in a flash forward) Jin and Sun are sitting behind him. about 2 rows to the left.
> 
> Tom


No, they were not.

As for the man in the coffin, we can rule out any of the Oceanic 6. Those 6 were celebrities and their deaths would have attracted some public attention. And since only 6 supposedly got off the Island, it probably wasn't anyone on on Oceanic 815.

And I think the man in the cabin with Jacob had to be Locke because he appeared to Hurley right after he saw the cabin.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Shone is a form of shine.
Shown is a form of show.

Sorry, had to, compulsion.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Magister said:


> Hurley didn't just say he didn't meet Anna on the plane, he said he didn't know her.


Right, but the guy asking didn't seem to consider it a possibility that maybe she lived for a while on the island after it crashed. He asked Hurley if he met her on the plane. He didn't ask, "Hey Hugo, did you live with Anna Lucia for a while on the island but she just didn't make it off the island?"

I just interpret the wording of his question to mean that everyone thinks the Oceanic 6 are the only ones to survive the initial crash and that the big secret that the Oceanic 6 are hiding is the fact that there are other people alive on the island.

I'm reading a lot into it I know but that's what these threads are for right?


----------



## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

Do we *really* know that Charlie is dead?

We didn't see much of him after the room flooded. There whould have been an air bubble at the top of the room. He could have gotten a few breaths from that. He might have been able to squeeze through the window and swim to the surface. Presumably Desmond would have seen enough through the door to be sure he was dead, but they didn't show us that. If Mikhail can survive a speargun shot in the friggin' heart ...


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

I'm watching this show as if it's a comedy now. I have to laugh it it or else I'd be pissed off to no end about it. If I wanted to be lead on endlessly I'd just go back to college and help out hot girls with their computers.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

loubob57 said:


> Do we *really* know that Charlie is dead?


Yeah, that was my thought last year--this isn't exactly a place where dead means dead.


----------



## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

I also think that the eye we saw in the cabin was Locke. We obviously know that Locke knew where the cabin was (assuming it is stationary) and it would make sense that a man like him would go back there to try and figure out what upset Ben so much.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Here's something I thought of.
> 
> The public (in the future) believes that the Oceanic Six were the only people to survive _the crash_. The 6 haven't told anyone about anything on the Island. Maybe the public doesn't even know about the island.
> 
> Anna Lucia's partner asked Hurley if he met her in the airport or on the plane. He didn't ask him if he met her while on the Island before she died.


This is my opinion, as well. I think the Oceanic Six are the only ones that 'escaped' the island. The six of them told the public that the rest of the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815 died, when in reality, they're still on the island, defending it from The Naomi Group.

And now, they are each feeling different levels of guilt for abandoning The Island, and abandoning the rest of Flight 815. Hurley's mind (with the chemical imbalance) delves into a level of insanity, and visions of Charlie, to have that guilt manifest itself before him. We see that Jack has taken a vested interest in Hurley's sanity (and his silence) and that Hurley's guilt is tearing him apart. And that's going to end up affecting Jack, who will go into a downward drunken spiral trying to assuage a similar guilt.

It also explains why Jack says, at the end of Through The Looking Glass, that they made a mistake leaving the island behind.

When characters in the real world are interacting with Hurley, they never mention his stay on the island. I honestly think that The Six have told the public that they were the only six to survive the crash. They're hiding the island, they're hiding the rest of the 815'ers that are still on the island, protecting it in the same manner that The Others have.

That explains the Oceanic "representative" that visits Hurley in the mental institution, who's very curious about finding out about the island.

What's most puzzling to me is how at the start of the episode, Jack sees the top of Hurley's Camaro and just *knows* it's him, after seeing the top of his car for a few seconds. And there's zero doubt in his mind that it's Hurley.


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## jr461 (Jul 9, 2004)

But what about the numbers?


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Skittles said:


> This is my opinion, as well. I think the Oceanic Six are the only ones that 'escaped' the island. The six of them told the public that the rest of the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815 died, when in reality, they're still on the island, defending it from The Naomi Group.
> 
> And now, they are each feeling different levels of guilt for abandoning The Island, and abandoning the rest of Flight 815. Hurley's mind (with the chemical imbalance) delves into a level of insanity, and visions of Charlie, to have that guilt manifest itself before him. We see that Jack has taken a vested interest in Hurley's sanity (and his silence) and that Hurley's guilt is tearing him apart. And that's going to end up affecting Jack, who will go into a downward drunken spiral trying to assuage a similar guilt.
> 
> ...


I'm with you 100%


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

stalemate said:


> Right, but the guy asking didn't seem to consider it a possibility that maybe she lived for a while on the island after it crashed. He asked Hurley if he met her on the plane. He didn't ask, "Hey Hugo, did you live with Anna Lucia for a while on the island but she just didn't make it off the island?"
> 
> I just interpret the wording of his question to mean that everyone thinks the Oceanic 6 are the only ones to survive the initial crash and that the big secret that the Oceanic 6 are hiding is the fact that there are other people alive on the island.
> 
> I'm reading a lot into it I know but that's what these threads are for right?


That's how I interpreted it too. It might not be the case, but it's how it came across.


----------



## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

MitchO said:


> Well, yeah, but what we DO know:
> 
> Michael and Walt left the island on a boat (with navigation) given to them by Ben in exchange for Michael's help. We haven't seen them since.


But we did see Walt, he helped Locke out of the pit.

I corrected my post. Not very good with names.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Skittles said:


> What's most puzzling to me is how at the start of the episode, Jack sees the top of Hurley's Camaro and just *knows* it's him, after seeing the top of his car for a few seconds. And there's zero doubt in his mind that it's Hurley.


I just assumed he knew what car Hurley had (it was pretty distinctive), and knew he might be crazy enough to end up in that situation.

I agree with the rest of what you wrote.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

jamesbobo said:


> But we did see Micheal, he helped Locke out of the pit.


I think you mean to say that we did see Walt.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

jamesbobo said:


> But we did see Micheal, he helped Locke out of the pit.


That was actually Walt and I think we were meant to believe that was just a 'vision' imploring him to get up and not die in the pit...that he had more work to do for the island.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

MickeS said:


> I just assumed he knew what car Hurley had (it was pretty distinctive), and knew he might be crazy enough to end up in that situation.
> 
> I agree with the rest of what you wrote.


Yeah, but in a city like Los Angeles, where there are millions of people and millions of cars, how did he know it was Hurley's car?

He turns on the TV, he sees the car chase, and in seconds he just knows it's Hurley. When I re-watched that scene, I had no doubt in my own mind that Jack knows it's Hurley right away.

I think something happened to The Oceanic Six in the days leading up to the high speed chase, because Jack doesn't seem terribly surprised to see Hurley doing this, nor does he require that much of a leap to believe that it's Hurley in the car.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Skittles said:


> This is my opinion, as well. I think the Oceanic Six are the only ones that 'escaped' the island. The six of them told the public that the rest of the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815 died, when in reality, they're still on the island, defending it from The Naomi Group.
> 
> And now, they are each feeling different levels of guilt for abandoning The Island, and abandoning the rest of Flight 815. Hurley's mind (with the chemical imbalance) delves into a level of insanity, and visions of Charlie, to have that guilt manifest itself before him. We see that Jack has taken a vested interest in Hurley's sanity (and his silence) and that Hurley's guilt is tearing him apart. And that's going to end up affecting Jack, who will go into a downward drunken spiral trying to assuage a similar guilt.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you just said. That was what I thought too.

As for Jack knowing the Camaro I think the entire short scene with Jack was just to establish it was a flash-forward ('cause Jack was drinking) and I think the fact that Jack recognized his car was just to establish they were friendly and in contact.


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## jeffo13 (Oct 21, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Here's something I thought of.
> 
> The public (in the future) believes that the Oceanic Six were the only people to survive _the crash_. The 6 haven't told anyone about anything on the Island. Maybe the public doesn't even know about the island.
> 
> Anna Lucia's partner asked Hurley if he met her in the airport or on the plane. He didn't ask him if he met her while on the Island before she died.


Nobody survived the crash. 6 made a deal with the devil to come back from the dead. They are now feeling guilty.

I knew it was Hurly because that was the car he was building with Cheech.

Jeff
PSN=bender313


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ....The season is 16 episodes, but when we see the "back eight" is an open question. The producers are upset that ABC is showing the first eight now, since the whole sixteen were designed to be seen in consecutive weeks...


Wondering if they may decide to re-air the front eight right before the back eight (when the back eight are ready to go)?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Skittles said:


> Yeah, but in a city like Los Angeles, where there are millions of people and millions of cars, how did he know it was Hurley's car?


If I saw a car chase on TV and the car was the EXACT same car that a friend of mine had, I would take notice. Considering what Jack and Hurley have gone through, it's not much of a stretch to me to imagine that when Jack sees that it's a car that is exactly like Hurley's, he knows that it indeed IS his car.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

My theory is not entirely solid but ties together a lot of elements. Spoiler tags are because of assumptions based on the lost experience. Of course, based on the approach the producers have taken to the lost experience and how much they have downplayed it, my theory is most likely 100% horse crap.

Given that



Spoiler



The Dharma Initiative intended to change the valenzetti equation predicting the end of the world, but failed



I believe therefore that Naomi's people are with the Dharma Initiative, which has been looking for the island for some time, unable to find it due to the islands natural or technological "cloaking" properties ever since their people "went missing" (aka were gassed by Ben). There will be much misunderstanding between the groups since Naomi is dead and they will be naturally suspicious of jack's crew, being that Ben (who is with them) slaughtered all of their people.

I think the Oceanic Six were informed of the nature of the island, and that the island is


Spoiler



Meant to be an oasis / isolation from the rest of the world where various science and technology are employed in conjunction with whatever weird properties the island has to try to change one of the factors without directly interacting with the rest of the world



They were given a choice to return to the real world or stay and help, but never be able to see anyone again.



Spoiler



Given the nature of the island, they would not be permitted to reveal the truth about it due to "contamination" by the real world interfering with their work to alter one of the factors. Which would thus perhaps explain the quarantine hatch, or that could just be a red herring.



The six chose to enter the real world again and either the others didn't or they were told that only they six would be allowed to leave. Over time they are feeling compelled to return to the island due either to guilt, stockholm syndrome type stuff, or similar reasons, or because they want to help the others leave. But they know that


Spoiler



They shouldn't return or talk about it because it could affect the outcome of the initiative



It seems strange to me to think that the reason they can't talk is just because of some many-tendriled organization spying on them and threatening to kill everyone left on the island. I can't imagine that would lead to such broken down people. I think their choice has to be partly a noble one.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

Sirius Black said:


> I'm sure the fact that Dominic Monaghan is still listed in the main cast and wasn't a guest star is interesting to some people. A show will sometimes do this (put previous main characters in the opening credits) but Charlie was clearly killed in the finale. I'd wonder if his death and all the press of him leaving the show was actually a red herring akin to another show on a different channel. Yeah, he's dead but that doesn't we won't see Charlie again.


It looks like the producers just put everybody in the opening credits, to throw off the snoops. I noticed Harold Perrinau (Michael) for instance, but he never showed up last night. Were the Alcoholics (Michelle Rodriguez) listed too, just in case?


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

JYoung said:


> ...Perhaps the other 815 survivors would be killed if they talked....?


There were that many who survived?....WOW....


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Skittles said:


> This is my opinion, as well. I think the Oceanic Six are the only ones that 'escaped' the island. The six of them told the public that the rest of the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815 died, when in reality, they're still on the island, defending it from The Naomi Group.
> 
> And now, they are each feeling different levels of guilt for abandoning The Island, and abandoning the rest of Flight 815. Hurley's mind (with the chemical imbalance) delves into a level of insanity, and visions of Charlie, to have that guilt manifest itself before him. We see that Jack has taken a vested interest in Hurley's sanity (and his silence) and that Hurley's guilt is tearing him apart. And that's going to end up affecting Jack, who will go into a downward drunken spiral trying to assuage a similar guilt.
> 
> ...





stalemate said:


> I'm with you 100%





cwoody222 said:


> I agree with everything you just said. That was what I thought too.
> 
> As for Jack knowing the Camaro I think the entire short scene with Jack was just to establish it was a flash-forward ('cause Jack was drinking) and I think the fact that Jack recognized his car was just to establish they were friendly and in contact.


Sign me up! I agree with Skittles' theories too!


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

stiffi said:


> It looks like the producers just put everybody in the opening credits, to throw off the snoops. I noticed Harold Perrinau (Michael) for instance, but he never showed up last night. Were the Alcoholics (Michelle Rodriguez) listed too, just in case?


Casting Spoiler:


Spoiler



Harold Perrinau wasn't in last night's episode but he is back on the show per imdb.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

tiams said:


> As for the man in the coffin, we can rule out any of the Oceanic 6. Those 6 were celebrities and their deaths would have attracted some public attention. And since only 6 supposedly got off the Island, it probably wasn't anyone on on Oceanic 815.


This is Lost we can't rule out anything. 

However, we don't have any time line for the last two episodes, so "Through the Looking Glass" could have taken place a couple years in the future. By that time, Britney would have her one thousandth breakdown and most people would have long stopped caring about the Oceanic 6. The general public may remember the story, but they would probably not be able to tell you any details, much less recognize them on the street. A simple Obituary for a member of the Oceanic 6 would not be suprising.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> Casting Spoiler:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



He was listed in the main credits last night, so I figured he'll be back. Unless he's been listed in the main credits this whole time he's been gone?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

markz said:


> Sign me up! I agree with Skittles' theories too!


I can see the 'sense' in a lot of Skittles theories - good thinking! As for the car? I can't figure out how he knew it was Hurley's car either. He has not yet been shown seeing Hurley with that car. 
This is the stuff that makes me nuts. Hurley seeing 'Christian' in the shack. Well, we all know it was christian (though I am not sold on it) but Hurley has no idea who that guy is. He never met him before.

Kate's lack of guilt or worry when Hurley and Jack are both suffering from it seems significant. She pulled up in a pretty nice car with a nice 'do and all when meeting Jack at the airport.

I actually hope they don't show us more of the oceanic six and let us keep guessing. This is fun!


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> Do we know that flashbacks are completely gone? I just thought that flashforwards were an option now, not a guarantee for every episode.


From a long interview with Damon Lindelof:

I didn't spoilerize it because IMO there are no spoilers in these excerpts.

"The change is exciting for us as writers, because we were so sick of writing flashback stories, Lindelof said over lunch at a Los Angeles restaurant. Weve changed the paradigm of the show, but in doing so, its a fairly new world in terms of how its going to be watched.

The show hasnt entirely abandoned flashbacks. But figuring out the new rules that Lost plays by is going to be part of the fun of the new season, he said. All Ill say is, were done telling flashback stories that are not relevant to the uber-story of the island.

And that story has far more momentum now that the flash-forwards contain small but tantalizing clues about how the islanders were rescued and what happened after they got home.

When you watch the flash-forwards, theres an emotional component, but youre also completely engaged on a plot level, because youre like, How did they get here? Lindelof noted.

My fundamental thinking is, half the people are going to think its great, and half the people are going to say, This is not the Lost that I know and love, and I want it to go back to being the way it was. And of course those will be the same people who were kvetching about the flashbacks being boring, Lindelof said.

Its not a different show, but the whole paradigm of the show [has changed]. Every week it was like, Heres a conflict on the island and heres something about this character that helps explain why theyre acting this way or whats motivating them. It was more emotional -- [the flashbacks] were never plotty. The flashback stories always were, Carlton likes to say, these little New Yorker short stories. They had a beginning, a middle and an end. This is the time that Kate got caught in Australia, this is the time that Sawyer decided to stop conning, this is the time that Locke went on walkabout, this is the time that Jack ratted out his dad.

Now, when you talk about doing flash-forwards on the show, the paradigm shifts entirely, because youre showing the audience A, which is, theyre on the island, and youre showing them Z, which is, theyre off the island. But the audience doesnt know B through Y.

So when you watch the flash-forwards, theres an emotional component, but youre also completely engaged on a plot level, because youre like, How did they get here? Every little sentence they say is a clue to what B through Y may be. You have to watch the show in an entirely different fashion.

I think its great, and exciting for us as writers, because we were so sick of writing flashback stories. So weve changed the paradigm of the show, but in doing so, its a fairly new world in terms of how its going to be watched. My fundamental thinking is, half the people are going to think its great, and half the people are going to say, This is not the Lost that I know and love, and I want it to go back to being the way that it was. And of course those will be the same people who were kvetching about the flashbacks being boring.

*So you said something interesting at Comic-Con last summer [more on that here], that flashbacks are going the way of the dodo. Are they gone?*

No, theyre not.

*Will it be a gradual transition to more flash-forwards?*

I dont really want to say. I feel like, what the new rules are that the show plays by  [figuring that out] is going to be part of the fun of the new season. All Ill say is, were done telling flashback stories that are not relevant to the uber-story of the island.

*One flashback I loved was Claires flashback to what happened when she was kidnapped on the island. Also Bens flashback to his own history on the island, that was cool.*

Or Juliets. She still has some chapters left in her story. Its all a matter of how you want to tell it. Ill just say again, were not done with flashbacks, but the flashbacks we want to do and are doing are relevant on a story level to the macro story of Lost.


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## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

For all we know Hurley may have gone to visit Jack (or vice versa) after they got back from the Island. We do not know how long they had been back when Hurley saw Charlie and fled in the camaro.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

peitsche said:


> So when you watch the flash-forwards, theres an emotional component, but youre also completely engaged on a plot level, because youre like, How did they get here? Every little sentence they say is a clue to what B through Y may be. You have to watch the show in an entirely different fashion.


I love it!


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I don't think that they are going to tell Libby's story in flash forward.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

loubob57 said:


> Do we *really* know that Charlie is dead?
> 
> We didn't see much of him after the room flooded. There whould have been an air bubble at the top of the room. He could have gotten a few breaths from that. He might have been able to squeeze through the window and swim to the surface. Presumably Desmond would have seen enough through the door to be sure he was dead, but they didn't show us that. If Mikhail can survive a speargun shot in the friggin' heart ...


The producers have said in interviews that Charlie's dead.
(shrug)


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Wait a second.

I bet Kate isn't a member of the "Oceanic Six". She obviously got of the island, but was allowed to do so in stealth. Sure, I guess she could have escaped custody after-the-fact. But I think she's too wise to have been lumped together with the other's who were "rescued". Obviously Jack had to use cloak-and-dagger techniques to get in touch with her.

Using this logic, we only know that Jack and Hurley are members of the "Oceanic Six". There are still 4 spots up for grabs.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> Wait a second.
> 
> I bet Kate isn't a member of the "Oceanic Six". She obviously got of the island, but was allowed to do so in stealth. Sure, I guess she could have escaped custody after-the-fact. But I think she's too wise to have been lumped together with the other's who were "rescued". Obviously Jack had to use cloak-and-dagger techniques to get in touch with her.
> 
> Using this logic, we only know that Jack and Hurley are members of the "Oceanic Six". There are still 4 spots up for grabs.


Interesting point.


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## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

Mike Farrington said:


> Wait a second.
> 
> I bet Kate isn't a member of the "Oceanic Six". She obviously got of the island, but was allowed to do so in stealth. Sure, I guess she could have escaped custody after-the-fact. But I think she's too wise to have been lumped together with the other's who were "rescued". Obviously Jack had to use cloak-and-dagger techniques to get in touch with her.
> 
> Using this logic, we only know that Jack and Hurley are members of the "Oceanic Six". There are still 4 spots up for grabs.


By cloak and dagger, do you mean calling her with his Razr phone? 

There is definitely something separating Kate from Jack and Hurley. Hurley seems to have struggled fairly quickly after his return from the island, and Jack eventually succombed to some severe guilt, but Kate seems to be thriving off the island, she looked great when she met Jack at the airfield.


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## Waldorf (Oct 4, 2002)

She's probably off the grid and not living under the stress of being one of the 6 celebrities like Jack, Hurley, Michael, Walt, Claire, and Aaron.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

ireland967 said:


> There is definitely something separating Kate from Jack and Hurley. Hurley seems to have struggled fairly quickly after his return from the island, and Jack eventually succombed to some severe guilt, but Kate seems to be thriving off the island, she looked great when she met Jack at the airfield.


Yeah, she does seem better off. I can't decide if I think she's part of the "6" or not. With Hurley and Jack they made to point to emphasize that they are celebrities because of being from Oceanic 815, and neither seemed to be handling it well; while with Kate she was doing great, but we didn't get to see enough of her to know if she is a celebrity or not. I mean, maybe she accepted the "upgrade" that Hurley declined...


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

ireland967 said:


> By cloak and dagger, do you mean calling her with his Razr phone?


Well, not using names on the phone and asking to meet at (paraphrasing) "The usual place", which is a strange place to meet for someone who isn't in hiding.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> Yeah, she does seem better off. I can't decide if I think she's part of the "6" or not. With Hurley and Jack they made to point to emphasize that they are celebrities because of being from Oceanic 815, and neither seemed to be handling it well; while with Kate she was doing great, but we didn't get to see enough of her to know if she is a celebrity or not. I mean, maybe she accepted the "upgrade" that Hurley declined...


Well, Hurley himself could afford the upgrade so he stays there because it's familiar and comfortable.
Bribing Hurley wouldn't work.
Threatening to kill his friends would.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Well, Hurley himself could afford the upgrade so he stays there because it's familiar and comfortable.
> Bribing Hurley wouldn't work.
> Threatening to kill his friends would.


He said that when he got back, his money would be gone because they thought he was dead.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Well, Hurley himself could afford the upgrade so he stays there because it's familiar and comfortable.
> Bribing Hurley wouldn't work.
> Threatening to kill his friends would.


Hurley seemed to think that being labeled as dead for just a few months would mean that all of his money was gone. I can't imagine that to be the case. But even if his money was waiting for him, he probably would have given it all away -- believing as he does that it is cursed (and seeing firsthand that the supernatural is possible).


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jehma said:


> He said that when he got back, his money would be gone because they thought he was dead.





Mike Farrington said:


> Hurley seemed to think that being labeled as dead for just a few months would mean that all of his money was gone. I can't imagine that to be the case. But even if his money was waiting for him, he probably would have given it all away -- believing as he does that it is cursed (and seeing firsthand that the supernatural is possible).


Perhaps, but even if his money was gone, I still don't think that money would be the best way to keep him quiet.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

If you read a theory linked to earlier in this thread... (spoilerizing theory but it's not based on any knowledge of upcoming events, so really, just read away )


Spoiler



Hurley might never even have won the lottery in the "return timeline". The more I think about it, that theory appeals to me.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

So now that they've been split into two groups, Locke's and Jack's, what do you think the first immunity challenge will be?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Paperboy2003 said:


> So now that they've been split into two groups, Locke's and Jack's, what do you think the first immunity challenge will be?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Sirius Black said:


> As for Jacob, are we really supposed to see him? Those pictures are screen caps of the show and then someone used Photoshop (or something like it) to enhance the picture so that we can see his face. That clearly isn't something the producers intended for most viewers to do.


Are you kidding me? You think the producers don't realize that every frame is put under the proverbial microscope? Do you think John Terry was just hanging around the set that day and they threw him in Jacob's chair?

And speaking of over-analysis? Has anyone decoded the whispers from this episode yet?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Just a thought, but if Kate was one of the six to leave the island, as we've seen she was, then why isn't she in jail?? I'm sure this has been discussed here and in the thread from last season's finale, but I'm kinda curious....


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Just a thought, but if Kate was one of the six to leave the island, as we've seen she was, then why isn't she in jail?? I'm sure this has been discussed here and in the thread from last season's finale, but I'm kinda curious....


Her freedom was part of the price for her silence.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> So, was Charlie really there when he was talking with Hurley??


That was "Charlie's Angel".


Still reading through the posts, but couldn't resist this ...


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## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

Sirius Black said:


> As for Jacob, are we really supposed to see him? Those pictures are screen caps of the show and then someone used Photoshop (or something like it) to enhance the picture so that we can see his face. That clearly isn't something the producers intended for most viewers to do.


I believe there are lots of aspects to the show that most viewers don't do, but the producers put it in the episode for those super-fans.

like Jacob.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> I bet Kate isn't a member of the "Oceanic Six". She obviously got of the island, but was allowed to do so in stealth.


This post got me thinking of the exchange she and Jack had at the airport:



Through The Looking Glass said:


> [Kate looks near tears as does Jack]
> KATE: This is not gonna change.
> JACK: No, I'm sick of lying. We made a mistake.
> *KATE: I have to go. He's gonna be wondering where I am... *
> ...


At the time we were thinking, "She must be 'with' someone from the cast, who is it? Sawyer?" I'm starting to think that she's not in a relationship with a person at all, that it all just goes back to the island.

"He" could be Ben... or Jacob.

Oh and as far as John Terry is concerned, he was in the opening credits for gosh sakes. I don't think they give him credit for his "Previously on Lost" voiceover. 

Greg


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

gchance said:


> This post got me thinking of the exchange she and Jack had at the airport:
> 
> At the time we were thinking, "She must be 'with' someone from the cast, who is it? Sawyer?" I'm starting to think that she's not in a relationship with a person at all, that it all just goes back to the island.
> 
> ...


Or maybe "He" is the officer in charge of overseeing her house arrest.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Anyone else find it odd that after they get the sat phone working and call in for help from the boat off shore, it's not a 'rescue party' that comes (whatever their true motivation is), but rather a single guy that parachutes in, dropped from a helicopter like Naomi was? Is he it, or are others on the way to shore and we just haven't seen them yet because the episode ended exactly when the first one arrived? I was expecting a team of people to arrive by dingy, or something like that - not one lone guy. Wonder what his plan would be to get back off the island and to the ship again?


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

When Jack dials Kate's phone, Sawyer answers, and gives her the phone. (in last season's finale)
Unless I'm remembering it wrong?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> On the other hand, the "flashback transitions" go from the present to the island now, instead of from the island to the present...
> 
> No, actually...he was in a different place. The cabin moved. (At first it was in a forest, then it was in a clearing.) Hurley was seeing things again...OR WAS HE?!?


Re: Jacob's cabin ...

I also got the impression that Hurley turned and was running away from the cabin when it appeared in front of him. Then he closed his eyes and wished it away and it disappeared.

He does the same thing in the asylum with visions of people (e.g. Charlie's Angel).

But it would seem to me that Jacob's cabin is only visible to certain "special" people, as well as Jacob himself. So other people could be tromping through the woods and not see the cabin at all. But Locke and Ben and Hurley can see the cabin and Jacob.

The obvious metaphor is to God. Certain people (of faith) claim to know God and speak with God. Non-believers do not see or hear God. Certain people can hear and see Jacob while most others cannot.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

danterner said:


> Anyone else find it odd that after they get the sat phone working and call in for help from the boat off shore, it's not a 'rescue party' that comes (whatever their true motivation is), but rather a single guy that parachutes in, dropped from a helicopter like Naomi was? Is he it, or are others on the way to shore and we just haven't seen them yet because the episode ended exactly when the first one arrived? I was expecting a team of people to arrive by dingy, or something like that - not one lone guy. Wonder what his plan would be to get back off the island and to the ship again?


My only thought was that his job was to lead the losties to wherever it is that the full "rescue" party will be meeting them. I don't really get it thought.


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Everyone thinks it was Locke's eye inside of Jacob's house? I thought it very distinctly looked like Mikhail's; particularly since with Mikhail, that is all you'd see ... one eye.

Screen cap please.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I like the theory that Naiomi is working with Dharma to re-find the Island. The reason a say that is that it plugs a major hole in the theory of just the Oceanic Six got off the Island. Unless they were magically or mystically taken off the Island, some transportation methodology (read: boat) would have had to rescue them. If the method, and more importantly, its people were not with Dharma, or some group that wants to keep the Island secret, then when these folks were resuced, it would be a totally different news story.

Of course, someone like Ben could always have said, "you can leave, but don't forget we can monitor you and if we find out you "tell", we will kill you".

Maybe the person in the coffin is not dead because they are "now off the Island". Maybe the person in the coffin was getting ready to divulge the secret of the Island and the Island and/or the Others had the person killed. If one buys this theory, I could see it being Ben in there. Maybe after all this time of being a baddie, he decides that he wants to seek forgiveness and truthfulness, and as such, decides to be part of the 6 and then tell the world. Maybe some "thing" knows what Ben is going to do and has him killed. Maybe Ben, like Charlie, accepted his fate and made decisions that were for the best of other people.......

I know...all hogwash, but that's the fun of the show, to speculate wildly.


I wonder if C/C and the cast are operating in the same way. I wonder if C/C know how the final end-game will shape up. I wonder if they have told the cast. If so, I bet C/C Burnett the cast and require them not to dilvulge the secrets of the end-game.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

You have a sat phone in hand, wouldn't want to perhaps call a friend of a loved one? Not just some guys who claim to be on a boat close by?? I mean c'mon...call ANYONE in addition to those on the boat!


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

MitchO said:


> Everyone thinks it was Locke's eye inside of Jacob's house? I thought it very distinctly looked like Mikhail's; particularly since with Mikhail, that is all you'd see ... one eye.
> 
> Screen cap please.


Here you go


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> You have a sat phone in hand, wouldn't want to perhaps call a friend of a loved one? Not just some guys who claim to be on a boat close by?? I mean c'mon...call ANYONE in addition to those on the boat!


Neither Jack nor Kate seemed to have any clue how to work anything other than the "receive" button. The screen itself did not appear to have normal dialing choices.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jlb said:


> All that being said, I go back to my original thought that it might be Locke in <the coffin>.......


Locke and Ben are two characters who have established the point that they clearly do NOT want to leave the island. Why would anybody think that they might be part of the Oceanic Six?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

ireland967 said:


> By cloak and dagger, do you mean calling her with his Razr phone?


Actually, it was his KRZR. phone.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

danterner said:


> 1. It's all in Hurley's head. It's not really Charlie, it's just a manifestation of Charlie from Hurley's own subconscious. If that's the case, the physical slap that Charlie gave Hurley to prove his 'reality' is interesting, as is the fact that Hurley asked Charlie questions about what happened leading to his death ("did you know you were going to die, etc.,") and Charlie answered with what we the viewer know to be the truth but which Hurley would not have known if it was just his own subconscious making up answers.


Remember "Dave" -- Hurley's imaginary bald-headed asylum-mate?
Hurley challenged Dave a couple of times about not being "real", and Dave responded by slapping Hurley's face on one occasion, then throwing a gourd at him another time. Hurley "felt" each of those instances, just as Charlie's Angel's slap to his face.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

loubob57 said:


> Rose and Bernard stayed with Jack, so they are possibilities. But who knows? If so that leaves one more.


Could it be Waaaaaalt! ?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

There was speculation back in May of 2007 that the man in the coffin was Michael.
It would explain why Jack said "Neither" and why Kate wouldn't go (for shooting Libby and Ana Lucia and betrayal).

If so, the Oceanic 6 could be:

Jack
Kate
Michael
Waaaalttt!
Sawyer
Hurley


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

JYoung said:


> There was speculation back in May of 2007 that the man in the coffin was Michael.
> It would explain why Jack said "Neither" and why Kate wouldn't go (for shooting Libby and Ana Lucia and betrayal).
> 
> If so, the Oceanic 6 could be:
> ...


I guess it could be Michael, but he'd have family or friends that would show up.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

JYoung said:


> There was speculation back in May of 2007 that the man in the coffin was Michael.
> It would explain why Jack said "Neither" and why Kate wouldn't go (for shooting Libby and Ana Lucia and betrayal).


Then why wouldn't Waaaaaalt have come?


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

Skittles said:


> What's most puzzling to me is how at the start of the episode, Jack sees the top of Hurley's Camaro and just *knows* it's him, after seeing the top of his car for a few seconds. And there's zero doubt in his mind that it's Hurley.


My guess is the horrendous CGI they used for the chase scene. The island transmitted it to his TV and he knew, based on how awful it looked, that it was Hurley.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

MitchO said:


> Neither Jack nor Kate seemed to have any clue how to work anything other than the "receive" button. The screen itself did not appear to have normal dialing choices.


It kind of looks like the LG Voyager for Verizon screens.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

getreal said:


> Remember "Dave" -- Hurley's imaginary bald-headed asylum-mate?
> Hurley challenged Dave a couple of times about not being "real", and Dave responded by slapping Hurley's face on one occasion, then throwing a gourd at him another time. Hurley "felt" each of those instances, just as Charlie's Angel's slap to his face.


Right, but I thought the physical interaction between Hurley and Dave on the island was explained by Dave really being a manifestation of the smoke monster at that point. In the "Dave" episode, were there instances where Hurley and Dave physically interacted within the flashbacks, which took place off-island, too? (I don't count Hurley putting his arm around Dave for the photo to be a physical interaction, since in the photo his arm is just resting on the back of the empty chair).


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

JYoung said:


> There was speculation back in May of 2007 that the man in the coffin was Michael.
> It would explain why Jack said "Neither" and why Kate wouldn't go (for shooting Libby and Ana Lucia and betrayal).
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> When Jack dials Kate's phone, Sawyer answers, and gives her the phone. (in last season's finale)
> Unless I'm remembering it wrong?


I don't think this was ever established.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Why would Michael's death cause Jack's actions throughout this episode? He see the paper on the airplane at the beginning of the episode, goes to the bridge intending to jump off, saves the woman from the wreck, goes the funeral all distraught, calls Kate... no I just don't think Michael's death could possibly cause that kind of reaction in Jack. In fact, other than Kate, I can't think of anyone that we've met thus far that would cause the Jack on the island that we know to have that kind of reaction.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> Why would Michael's death cause Jack's actions throughout this episode? He see the paper on the airplane at the beginning of the episode, goes to the bridge intending to jump off, saves the woman from the wreck, goes the funeral all distraught, calls Kate... no I just don't think Michael's death could possibly cause that kind of reaction in Jack. In fact, other than Kate, I can't think of anyone that we've met thus far that would cause the Jack on the island that we know to have that kind of reaction.


That is a good point but maybe we have yet to see an interaction between jack and michael to cause him to react that way.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

skinnyjm said:


> Plus, It's only a matter of time before DevdogAZ replies and makes us all look bad!


 What would I say to make you look bad? What were you saying that you thought I would have input on?


tgmii said:


> In the episode where Jack is shone flying back home (or flying somewhere in a flash forward) Jin and Sun are sitting behind him. about 2 rows to the left.
> 
> Tom


No they're not.


Skittles said:


> Yeah, but in a city like Los Angeles, where there are millions of people and millions of cars, how did he know it was Hurley's car?
> 
> He turns on the TV, he sees the car chase, and in seconds he just knows it's Hurley. When I re-watched that scene, I had no doubt in my own mind that Jack knows it's Hurley right away.
> 
> I think something happened to The Oceanic Six in the days leading up to the high speed chase, because Jack doesn't seem terribly surprised to see Hurley doing this, nor does he require that much of a leap to believe that it's Hurley in the car.


I think Jack and Hurley have clearly communicated with each other since getting off the island, and Jack knew what kind of car Hurley had. It wasn't until the announcer on the TV specified what the car was that we saw Jack's recognition. I'll bet that we'll see an episode some time that will include a flash-forward that took place prior to this one where Hurley is showing off his newly restored Camaro to Jack.


Sirius Black said:


> Casting Spoiler:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





MickeS said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> He was listed in the main credits last night, so I figured he'll be back. Unless he's been listed in the main credits this whole time he's been gone?





Spoiler



That makes sense. Now that they're showing flash forwards, we'll be able to see Michael off island. However, I'll bet he's not considered one of the Oceanic Six since he got off in a different method and probably rejoined society in a more stealthy manner.





ireland967 said:


> By cloak and dagger, do you mean calling her with his Razr phone?
> 
> There is definitely something separating Kate from Jack and Hurley. Hurley seems to have struggled fairly quickly after his return from the island, and Jack eventually succombed to some severe guilt, but Kate seems to be thriving off the island, she looked great when she met Jack at the airfield.


I assumed it had to do with the fact that Jack and Hurley were fairly moral before going to the island and had to do some things they were not comfortable with to get off. It truly changed them. However, Kate was a killer and a fugitive before she went, so the things she had to do to get home were probably not all that unsavory to her.


DUDE_NJX said:


> When Jack dials Kate's phone, Sawyer answers, and gives her the phone. (in last season's finale)
> Unless I'm remembering it wrong?


You're remembering it wrong.


Sirius Black said:


> Why would Michael's death cause Jack's actions throughout this episode? He see the paper on the airplane at the beginning of the episode, goes to the bridge intending to jump off, saves the woman from the wreck, goes the funeral all distraught, calls Kate... no I just don't think Michael's death could possibly cause that kind of reaction in Jack. In fact, other than Kate, I can't think of anyone that we've met thus far that would cause the Jack on the island that we know to have that kind of reaction.


But keep in mind that Jack told the funeral director that the deceased was neither friend nor family. I can't think of anyone we've met that would cause Jack to have that reaction but that he would disavow as a friend.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I guess it could be Michael, but he'd have family or friends that would show up.





Bryanmc said:


> Then why wouldn't Waaaaaalt have come?





Sirius Black said:


> Why would Michael's death cause Jack's actions throughout this episode? He see the paper on the airplane at the beginning of the episode, goes to the bridge intending to jump off, saves the woman from the wreck, goes the funeral all distraught, calls Kate... no I just don't think Michael's death could possibly cause that kind of reaction in Jack. In fact, other than Kate, I can't think of anyone that we've met thus far that would cause the Jack on the island that we know to have that kind of reaction.


Weell since Michael is back for this season, I think that there might be some story elements that we aren't aware of yet.

And if I was Waaaalt, I'd be tempted to disown or run away from Michael due to his actions.....


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

danterner said:


> I see four possibilities, here:
> 
> 1. It's all in Hurley's head. It's not really Charlie, it's just a manifestation of Charlie from Hurley's own subconscious. If that's the case, the physical slap that Charlie gave Hurley to prove his 'reality' is interesting,* as is the fact that Hurley asked Charlie questions about what happened leading to his death ("did you know you were going to die, etc.,") and Charlie answered with what we the viewer know to be the truth but which Hurley would not have known if it was just his own subconscious making up answers.*


Could Desmond have not related the story to him?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BTW, are there 4 or 5 "a"s in "Waaaaalt!"?


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

getreal said:


> Re: Jacob's cabin ...
> 
> I also got the impression that Hurley turned and was running away from the cabin when it appeared in front of him. Then he closed his eyes and wished it away and it disappeared.
> 
> He does the same thing in the asylum with visions of people (e.g. Charlie's Angel).


Didn't Hurley magically "wish" the Dharma van to start in the first episode he found it in?

I think Hurley's got some mojo going on...


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> I think Hurley's got some mojo going on...


Probably some major B.O. too!


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Wasn't the reason why Ben shot Locke because he was able to hear Jacob. Last night Hurley was able to see and hear Jacob or even more interesting it would seem that Jacob was looking for Hurley. That probably has some significance.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Sirius Black said:


> Why would Michael's death cause Jack's actions throughout this episode? He see the paper on the airplane at the beginning of the episode, goes to the bridge intending to jump off, saves the woman from the wreck, goes the funeral all distraught, calls Kate... no I just don't think Michael's death could possibly cause that kind of reaction in Jack. In fact, other than Kate, I can't think of anyone that we've met thus far that would cause the Jack on the island that we know to have that kind of reaction.


Here's my thought why Michael's death could cause Jack's actions.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jr461 said:


> But what about the numbers?


Yes, the numbers ... consider this:

Oceanic 815 ... "The Oceanic 6" ...
815 + 6 = 821
8 + 2 + 1 = 11
1 + 1 = 2
2 squared = 4
"LOST" has 4 letters!!! 

Coincidence? I think not!



(just being silly)


----------



## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

Hmmm. 

We seem to know 3 (or 2) of the Oceanic 6:

Jack
Hurley
Kate (?)

It's hard to believe that Sun wouldn't have left the island (provided she didn't end up dead). Given the prognosis of her pregnancy.

Jin would have followed Sun.

Is there any chance that Juliet would have stayed on the Island? She wanted to leave as much as Jack.

BTW - it's too bad the gun wasn't loaded when Jack pulled the trigger.


----------



## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

BTW - I think the funeral was for Ben. That makes perfect sense.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

dba62 said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> We seem to know 3 (or 2) of the Oceanic 6:
> 
> ...


I think what they wanted will be shown to have very little effect on what actually happened.


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

dba62 said:


> BTW - I think the funeral was for Ben. That makes perfect sense.


Then why would news of Ben's death cause Jack to attempt suicide?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

balboa dave said:


> Then why would news of Ben's death cause Jack to attempt suicide?


Clearly Jack is feeling guilty about whatever they did to get off the island. Whether that meant leaving people behind, or that people died in the rescue attempt, some combination of the two, or something entirely different, clearly Jack is having a hard time coming to terms with it. Perhaps the fact that Ben was alive was his one hope that maybe he could somehow use Ben's knowledge to right the wrongs he committed. However, if Ben died (and it seems like I remember that the bits and pieces of the obituary we were able to decipher indicated that it was a suicide), perhaps that brought the reality home to Jack that he's never going back and he'll never be able to correct his mistakes.


----------



## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Clearly Jack is feeling guilty about whatever they did to get off the island. Whether that meant leaving people behind, or that people died in the rescue attempt, some combination of the two, or something entirely different, clearly Jack is having a hard time coming to terms with it. Perhaps the fact that Ben was alive was his one hope that maybe he could somehow use Ben's knowledge to right the wrongs he committed. However, if Ben died (and it seems like I remember that the bits and pieces of the obituary we were able to decipher indicated that it was a suicide), perhaps that brought the reality home to Jack that he's never going back and he'll never be able to correct his mistakes.


Except in S3 finale, Jack is yelling at Kate (at the end) that they *HAVE* to go back...that doesn't sound like he's never going to be able to...it's like he's insisting they *must* go back.


----------



## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> But keep in mind that Jack told the funeral director that the deceased was neither friend nor family. I can't think of anyone we've met that would cause Jack to have that reaction but that he would disavow as a friend.


Ben, Locke, Sawyer, Jacob, Michael, his ex-wife, and Hurley all fit that description. Heck, since we haven't seen points B through Y for everyone yet, everyone but Kate could fit that description other than Claire and Aaron.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *danterner*
> I see four possibilities, here:
> 
> 1. It's all in Hurley's head. It's not really Charlie, it's just a manifestation of Charlie from Hurley's own subconscious. If that's the case, the physical slap that Charlie gave Hurley to prove his 'reality' is interesting, as is the fact that *Hurley asked Charlie questions about what happened leading to his death ("did you know you were going to die, etc.,") and Charlie answered with what we the viewer know to be the truth but which Hurley would not have known if it was just his own subconscious making up answers.*





teknikel said:


> Could Desmond have not related the story to him?


Yes, good point. Then again, if Hurley already knew the answers because Desmond had related the story to him, then why would Hurley have needed to ask Charlie about it? Just for confirmation, I guess. I can accept that. At the same time, it didn't seem like Hurley was trying to confirm anything when talking to Charlie, so much as it seemed like he was asking because he wanted information he didn't already have.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, that was my thought last year--this isn't exactly a place where dead means dead.


I contended in the last thread that it was definitely a possibility and was lambasted for it.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

New theory:

The people on the freighter work for Oceanic Airlines and are there to retrieve the fuselage and any other remnants of Flight 815, and they may also be headed up by Mr. Widmore (Penny's dad).

In rescuing the Oceanic Six, the six castaways had to do a "deal with the devil" in order to get off of the island and return to society. This deal includes keeping quiet about certain details (like the very existence of the island), in order to spare the lives of their fellow castaways. 

According to Naomi, Oceanic Airlines had already publicized the fallacious news item that the fuselage had been located at the bottom of the ocean and that there were no survivors. So they probably had to fabricate a new scenario for the public in order to explain the "six survivors". 

The "Powers That Be" are closely monitoring the movements of the six survivors. That's why they need to speak without identifying each other on the phone, and meet at the noisy airport runway in the dark, etc....


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

I thought that the producers have said that when a character dies on Lost, they're really dead. No "cheating" and bringing them back.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

balboa dave said:


> Then why would news of Ben's death cause Jack to attempt suicide?


Because only Ben knew how to get back to the island?


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

So has anyone been keeping up with find815.com. I think that explains who is on that freighter and what they are doing out there. And I wouldn't doubt that the company that's funding the freighter is affiliated with Whitmore.

I don't think we can assume that WAAAAALT and/or Michael are a part of the Oceanic Six. Just because we saw them leaving the island doesn't mean they were rescued. 

My theory is that for whatever reason, Kate and Jack go back for Locke's side of the group to try to convince them to switch sides. We all know Jack has to fix things and Kate can't stay in one place so she'd follow Jack. So Jack and Kate leave their group and try to get the rest over on their side. But something happens so then the only people that end up getting rescued are Kate, Jack, Locke, Hurley, Claire and Aaron and possibly Sawyer. I don't think Aaron would count as being an original Oceanic passenger because he was never "really" on the plane.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bryanmc said:


> I thought that the producers have said that when a character dies on Lost, they're really dead. No "cheating" and bringing them back.


I have a hunch that when all is said and done we will be able to parse what exactly they said and what exactly happened, and see why they weren't saying what we thought they were saying.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> So has anyone been keeping up with find815.com?


Yes. (the find815 game WILL be spoiled for you if you read below)


Spoiler



It does not explicitly say that it is the same freighter; in fact there is more of an implication that it is not. At the end of the find815 game, they find the wreckage of flight 815 in the Sundra trench. This sounds like the story Naomi told when she first landed on the island of how the wreckage of flight 815 was found. When Naomi told it, it sounded as if that was a while back. Also, in the game there is no indication of the island itself, Naomi or helicopters.

It is made clear that the company sponsoring the expedition in find815, the Maxwell Group, is a subsidiary of Widmore Industries


----------



## TiVoter123 (Jan 1, 2001)

getreal said:


> The "Powers That Be" are closely monitoring the movements of the six survivors. That's why they need to speak without identifying each other on the phone, and meet at the noisy airport runway in the dark, etc....


Decent... but then how come Jack could straight up visit Hurley in the nut house in broad daylight.


----------



## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

No one has pointed out that Locke already knows all about Charlie when Hurley shows up at the cabin, including the exact contents of the message that Charlie wrote on his hand...

And I think the fact that Hurley's fellow patient pointed Charlie out to him is definitive proof that at least _something_ was physically there with him.


----------



## FlugPoP (Jan 7, 2004)

Does anyone know why Hurley threw the "walkie"?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Vito the TiVo said:


> No one has pointed out that Locke already knows all about Charlie when Hurley shows up at the cabin, including the exact contents of the message that Charlie wrote on his hand...


I just took that to mean that Hurley and Locke had an off-screen conversation.



> And I think the fact that Hurley's fellow patient pointed Charlie out to him is definitive proof that at least _something_ was physically there with him.


I don't. I think that just as easily could be part of Hurley's hallucination.


----------



## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

FlugPoP said:


> Does anyone know why Hurley threw the "walkie"?


He wanted to prevent the Freighter people from intercepting their communications, and Sawyer wasn't listening to his demands to stop using it (? IIRC)


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

skinnyjm said:


> Plus, It's only a matter of time before DevdogAZ replies and makes us all look bad!





FlugPoP said:


> Does anyone know why Hurley threw the "walkie"?


Because he didn't want it used. The people on "not Penny's boat" would hear them, and Charlie had warned them that they are not who they say they are, and he doesn't trust them.


----------



## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

And, let me point out the show has gotten very complicated with my fiancee and I counting no less than twelve groups that are either currently or have had some influence on the island at different times, with no clear establishment of which are the same and who's motives line up.

As of last night there's:

1) Jack Castaways
2) Locke Castaways
3) Original Others (possibly immortal like Batmanuel, Mikhail)
4) Recruited Others (Ben, Juliet)
5) Dharma (likely extinct on the island)
6) Naomi's Searchers
7) Penny's Searchers
8) Rousseau's people (possibly now others? Or dead - Rousseau and her daughter are the only _known_ survivors)
9) Adam and Eve (the skeletons in the caves w/ black and white stones)
10) The Black Rock crew and slaves (probably long dead -- but possibly part of the immortal others?)
11) Jacob (unclear as to what he is or where his loyalties are)
12) Smoke Monster (the same)

You could probably add additional ones that don't quite fit any other group, but these are either clearly over with or their intentions were/are clear:

1) Desmond
2) Tailies
3) The original Henry Gale
4) Eko's brother's plane

And there's others that aren't on the island that may or may not line up with the above groups including:

1) Widmore Searchers (not Penny's, but this may be Naomi and co.)
2) Oceanic Airlines
3) The lawyer from last night, who is probably not Oceanic as he claimed

Whew. Its a lot to try to follow and to understand how they play off and with each other.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> Yes. (the find815 game WILL be spoiled for you if you read below)
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Thanks...I'm not sure how far along I was in the find815 game. I think I'll go back and check it out.



Spoiler



I remember them saying they found the Black Rock and I remember the Maxwell group was behind the search for the Black Rock but didn't know it was mentioned the Maxwell was a part of Widmore...but I figured it would turn out that way.

So I wonder if this Maxwell group (if not the same freighter) funded both these missions...because Naomi sure did know a lot about flight 815 off the top of her head.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Vito the TiVo said:


> List of Island people


Don't forget whoever built the four-toed statue!


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> Thanks...I'm not sure how far along I was in the find815 game. I think I'll go back and check it out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I think the Black Rock part of the story was ruse to get the main character, Sam, involved in the search for 815 without telling him. I think the Maxwell Group knew what they were really looking for all along - further, I suspect they also know darn well where the Black Rock is (even if they don't know how to get there), and I think they planted the wreckage.

I definitely think they are behind both expeditions.

Of course, I have no idea what their motive for any of this is...


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Vito the TiVo said:


> And I think the fact that Hurley's fellow patient pointed Charlie out to him is definitive proof that at least _something_ was physically there with him.


Unless the patient was in Hurley's mind as well.

Greg


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Because only Ben knew how to get back to the island?


:up: exactly my thoughts!
it explains the small'ish casket too, he's not a tall man


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## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

balboa dave said:


> Then why would news of Ben's death cause Jack to attempt suicide?


Could be many things I guess. Ben insisted leaving the island was a mistake - maybe Jack blames himself for Ben's death.

I said perfect sense - should have qualified it - based on what we know today (which is nothing) - he's someone's funeral that I would expect to be lightly attended.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Why didn't Desmond go with Locke's group?

And if Ben is in the coffin, why would he leave the Island at all?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

jwehman said:


> Except in S3 finale, Jack is yelling at Kate (at the end) that they *HAVE* to go back...that doesn't sound like he's never going to be able to...it's like he's insisting they *must* go back.


The question is, do they know how to go back? Jack talked of flying and hoping to crash there. Not the most efficient way back. Also, if he thinks he should go back, and he knows the way, just GO already. Why does he need Kate? He never wanted her along on dangerous missions before.

"Go back" Any chance that could be back in time rather than back to the island. Or maybe that's the same thing.

Did the bad guys maybe take the leaders--the stronger ones--off the island thinking the rest won't get in their way, whatever they want to do? That would explain why Jack is here, when he surely would have been the last one to board a rescue plane after everyone else was safely on. They seemed concerned about finding Jack. Also they would have had to force Locke and Ben to go, so that's the only explanation I can think of for why they would've gone. The whole coffin thing fits Ben to a T, but they would have had to drag him off the island kicking and screaming.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Vito the TiVo said:


> And I think the fact that Hurley's fellow patient pointed Charlie out to him is definitive proof that at least _something_ was physically there with him.


I repeat, there is no indication that the other patient was actually pointing at Charlie. I still think it's possible he was actually pointing at the "lawyer."


----------



## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I repeat, there is no indication that the other patient was actually pointing at Charlie. I still think it's possible he was actually pointing at the "lawyer."


Same argument, there is no indication that the "lawyer" is present in that scene... only Charlie.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Vito the TiVo said:


> Same argument, there is no indication that the "lawyer" is present in that scene... only Charlie.


There's also no indication that the other patient was there, other than Hurley seeing him.


----------



## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm going to guess that Locke is the body in the coffin. We already know that people from both Jack and Locke's group get off the island, so it can go either way for the Six.

We already know he was disabled before he got to the island, and despite it's healing abilities, he's definitely added a major toll on his body since arriving. Once getting back to life off the island I imagine he wouldn't last long. Amputation would explain the unusually short casket. 

This type of adverse affect on someone might illustrate to Jack that leaving the island was a mistake. We know that Hurley regrets not going with Locke, but that could just mean in the initial split we saw last night. It would be an interesting twist to see Locke wind up off the island if either forced or through a turn of events.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jwehman said:


> Except in S3 finale, Jack is yelling at Kate (at the end) that they *HAVE* to go back...that doesn't sound like he's never going to be able to...it's like he's insisting they *must* go back.


But I don't think he knows how. That's the point.


Vito the TiVo said:


> No one has pointed out that Locke already knows all about Charlie when Hurley shows up at the cabin, including the exact contents of the message that Charlie wrote on his hand...


There was a cut in that scene between when Locke found Hurley and when they were sitting there talking. Clearly Hurley had explained about Charlie during that cut.


latrobe7 said:


> Why didn't Desmond go with Locke's group?


Desmond has always wanted off the island. He just came thisclose to being able to talk to his long-lost love, Penny. He now knows she's still looking for him. Of course he'd go with the group that he thinks has the best chance of getting rescued.


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## JMikeD (Jun 10, 2002)

scheckeNYK said:


> Amputation would explain the unusually short casket.


Somehow I don't think that's credible.

Would they have one that's narrower for people who have lost both arms?


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Is anyone else as much of a sap as I am, and cried when Hurley told Claire that Charlie was dead? I know I can't be the only one.

I want a LOST for dummies. I can follow along for the most part but I still can't keep everything straight (others, other others, dharma people, etc.). LOL

I missed some dialogue at the end. The online version wouldn't play and then when I watched it live tonight (since basketball pre-empted it last night) the same part crapped out... after the parachutist lands and says "Are you Jack?" is there anything else?


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

jenhudson said:


> Is anyone else as much of a sap as I am, and cried when Hurley told Claire that Charlie was dead? I know I can't be the only one.
> 
> I want a LOST for dummies. I can follow along for the most part but I still can't keep everything straight (others, other others, dharma people, etc.). LOL
> 
> I missed some dialogue at the end. The online version wouldn't play and then when I watched it live tonight (since basketball pre-empted it last night) the same part crapped out... after the parachutist lands and says "Are you Jack?" is there anything else?


No, that's the end.


----------



## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

latrobe7 said:


> Why didn't Desmond go with Locke's group?
> 
> And if Ben is in the coffin, why would he leave the Island at all?


I was also a little bothered by Desmond not joining Claire & Hurley. Yes he wants to get off the island and he saw Penny, but he was also there when Charlie died giving him the message that these people are not working for Penny! Wouldn't he go with Locke's group instead? He could still try and figure out what the other group is up to, but it's hard for me to understand why he would just give himself up to this group Charlie died warning him about.

As for Ben, he obviously wouldn't leave on his own, but he is a prisoner and they could easily force him to leave.

Also, I'm sure this has been debated to death in an 80-page thread from last season, but was there a consensus for why Charlie closed that door before he drowned? Why didn't they just swim out while the station was flooding and go back and warn everybody?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Roadblock said:


> I was also a little bothered by Desmond not joining Claire & Hurley. Yes he wants to get off the island and he saw Penny, but he was also there when Charlie died giving him the message that these people are not working for Penny! Wouldn't he go with Locke's group instead? He could still try and figure out what the other group is up to, but it's hard for me to understand why he would just give himself up to this group Charlie died warning him about.
> 
> As for Ben, he obviously wouldn't leave on his own, but he is a prisoner and they could easily force him to leave.
> 
> Also, I'm sure this has been debated to death in an 80-page thread from last season, but was there a consensus for why Charlie closed that door before he drowned? Why didn't they just swim out while the station was flooding and go back and warn everybody?


I think the general consensus was that he had already resigned himself to death. He knew it would happen in that room. Whether he would have had time to swim out probably didn't even cross his mind. He probably simply shut the door to save Desmond and never considered that they both could have lived.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Wouldn't the base have stopped flooding at some point anyway? Where would all the air in there have gone?


----------



## avery (May 29, 2006)

jenhudson said:


> Is anyone else as much of a sap as I am, and cried when Hurley told Claire that Charlie was dead? I know I can't be the only one.


I did too... also, every time I've watched Charlie's death scene.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jenhudson said:


> I want a LOST for dummies. I can follow along for the most part but I still can't keep everything straight (others, other others, dharma people, etc.). LOL


With no writers on staff right now, I don't think we'll be getting podcasts from Carlton and Damon for a while, but last year I found they really helped.

and well, I'm a Lost junkie, so I hit here, and TV Squad every day after it shows, and have been known to cruise over to lostpedia.com for a fix of trivia.

YMMV 

Diane


----------



## avery (May 29, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think the general consensus was that he had already resigned himself to death. He knew it would happen in that room. Whether he would have had time to swim out probably didn't even cross his mind. He probably simply shut the door to save Desmond and never considered that they both could have lived.


True. And he had to fulfill the prophecy of Desmond's visions. First that there was no way to cheat his destiny to die - and second, so that Claire and Aaron would be taken off the island by helicopter.


----------



## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

Figaro said:


> Wouldn't the base have stopped flooding at some point anyway? Where would all the air in there have gone?


Would have stopped coming in almost immediately after reaching the height of the portal that blew up. At that point he would have had enough oxygen for Desmond to put on his scuba pack, grab a second one for Charlie, then swim around and give it to Charlie. That would have given them enough time to get him out as it looked like he could have easily fit through that hole.

When they showed the room completely filled, above the port hole, it was just bad writing.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

johnperkins21 said:


> Would have stopped coming in almost immediately after reaching the height of the portal that blew up. At that point he would have had enough oxygen for Desmond to put on his scuba pack, grab a second one for Charlie, then swim around and give it to Charlie. That would have given them enough time to get him out as it looked like he could have easily fit through that hole.
> 
> When they showed the room completely filled, above the port hole, it was just bad writing.


I meant even if he had left the door open. The entire base would not have flooded.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

johnperkins21 said:


> Would have stopped coming in almost immediately after reaching the height of the portal that blew up. At that point he would have had enough oxygen for Desmond to put on his scuba pack, grab a second one for Charlie, then swim around and give it to Charlie. That would have given them enough time to get him out as it looked like he could have easily fit through that hole.
> 
> When they showed the room completely filled, above the port hole, it was just bad writing.


I thought it was brilliant writing. Charlie _chose_ to accept his fate this time, after fighting against it for so long. He'd resigned himself to it, in order to save Claire and Aaron. Even though he could have put up another valiant fight against the latest "Charlie death situation" he opted to accept it.

Charlie's death didn't happen because there was no way to prevent it, it happened because he knew it must to save the others. It wasn't an accident, it was a choice.

Wonderful writing.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> I thought it was brilliant writing. Charlie _chose_ to accept his fate this time, after fighting against it for so long. He'd resigned himself to it, in order to save Claire and Aaron. Even though he could have put up another valiant fight against the latest "Charlie death situation" he opted to accept it.
> 
> Charlie's death didn't happen because there was no way to prevent it, it happened because he knew it must to save the others. It wasn't an accident, it was a choice.
> 
> Wonderful writing.


I agree, except that they should have chosen a more scientifically accurate way to do it.


----------



## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

Bryanmc said:


> I thought it was brilliant writing. Charlie _chose_ to accept his fate this time, after fighting against it for so long. He'd resigned himself to it, in order to save Claire and Aaron. Even though he could have put up another valiant fight against the latest "Charlie death situation" he opted to accept it.
> 
> Charlie's death didn't happen because there was no way to prevent it, it happened because he knew it must to save the others. It wasn't an accident, it was a choice.
> 
> Wonderful writing.


The acceptance of his fate was good writing. They way they had him die was sloppy and amateurish.



figaro said:


> I meant even if he had left the door open. The entire base would not have flooded.


Yes, even if he had left the door open the water would have stopped pouring in once it reached the top of that port hole. At that point the air pressure equalizes the water pressure in the same way that allows there to be a hole in the floor of the base that they could swim in to. The air needs a chance to escape for it to fill completely, and once that port is covered there is no way for air to escape.

The simplest experiment is to fill your sink with water then take a glass and plunge it straight down into the water with the opening of the glass pointing down. Very little will get into the glass and it will be filled with a pocket of air if you keep it straight. Tilt it slightly and you'll see that the amount of water that creeps in is equal to the amount of air that escapes.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

jenhudson said:


> I missed some dialogue at the end. The online version wouldn't play and then when I watched it live tonight (since basketball pre-empted it last night) the same part crapped out... after the parachutist lands and says "Are you Jack?" is there anything else?





Bryanmc said:


> No, that's the end.


Actually the guy also says "I'm here to rescue you."

Which made me laugh because I then pictured Kate saying "aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper....." /ducking and running


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Actually the guy also says "I'm here to rescue you."


That's Sawyer's line. 

Greg


----------



## thelastvoice (Feb 14, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> But keep in mind that Jack told the funeral director that the deceased was neither friend nor family.


Didn't the funeral director *ask* Jack if he was friend or family and Jack replied, "Neither"? It seems to me that if it was either Michael or Walt in the casket, he would have made the superficial assumption that Jack was not family and therefore wouldn't have asked that question. I think it's more likely to be Ben or possibly Sawyer.

Rob


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> With no writers on staff right now, I don't think we'll be getting podcasts from Carlton and Damon for a while, but last year I found they really helped.


It doesn't seem to me there was any writing involved with the Lost podcasts: they basically just ad libbed the entire thing (other than reading questions from fans). Of course they may well not do them for other reasons: solidarity, or else because they're upset these first 8 shows are being aired when they didn't want them to be.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

thelastvoice said:


> Didn't the funeral director *ask* Jack if he was friend or family and Jack replied, "Neither"? It seems to me that if it was either Michael or Walt in the casket, he would have made the superficial assumption that Jack was not family and therefore wouldn't have asked that question. I think it's more likely to be Ben or possibly Sawyer.
> 
> Rob


If he had said "Friend *of the *family?" then it would be completely different.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> I thought he simply said "Friend or family?"


I think that guy's point was, b/c Walter and Michael are black, the funeral director wouldn't have asked Jack, who is white, if he was family.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> I think that guy's point was, b/c Walter and Michael are black, the funeral director wouldn't have asked Jack, who is white, if he was family.


Yeah, I realized that after first posting my reply, so I edited. Thanks.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I agree, except that they should have chosen a more scientifically accurate way to do it.


Let's see - these people are on an island that has the power to either cure infirmities and illnesses or perhaps even prevent them all together and is inhabited by a smoke "monster", a polar bear, an invisible monster, ghosts or resurrections of dead people, and a group of people who worked for a secret company that was running experiments on life extension and controlling a magnetic power that could potentially have destroyed the world. Some people are endowed with extraordinary powers (seeing into the future, making comic book characters come to life, apparently never aging, seeing and hearing a mysterious figure, etc.) while others travel back and forth by submarine and kidnap people from the "normal world" - and we're worried about the scientifically accurate way to kill someone????


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I think that guy's point was, b/c Walter and Michael are black, the funeral director wouldn't have asked Jack, who is white, if he was family.


In-laws?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Figaro said:


> Wouldn't the base have stopped flooding at some point anyway? Where would all the air in there have gone?


And to take that tought out a few steps further, the door opened out, so technically, since they had tanks there, Desmond couldve jgotten a few and just had Charlie open the door (outward) and they coludve each grabbed a tank and been fine.

Would've been a lot less dramatic though...oh well


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I'm convinced that the person in the casket is in fact John Locke.

As posted elsewhere, screen caps of the newspaper clipping that Jack was reading off the island have been transcripted to read that a man by the name of John Lantham (I believe that was the spelling) was discovered dead in a downtown loft. This was the newspaper clipping that drove Jack to the funeral parlor.

My theory is this. We all know that Locke didn't want to leave the island. For yet unknown reasons, somehow, some way, perhaps Jack tricked, coerced, or outright forced Locke to leave the island with them. Perhaps this is after the two "camps" were at odds. Jack and Locke have a somewhat adversarial relationship. Maybe that relationship was bad until the very end, when Jack finally gets Locke to leave against his will.

Locke gets back to the "real world", and his legs don't work anymore, either all at once, or gradually, he reverts to being unable to walk. He shuns the publicity that the survivors are getting (he wouldn't have wanted it), so he changes his last name to try to blend in (Lantham?). Finally, he either kills himself out of grief...or...who knows. This would explain why the newspaper didn't have it reported as more of a "big deal" (Locke was incognito), AND would explain why Jack is a little bit greiving over the incident - he feels guilty for "forcing" Locke off the island. When the man at the funeral parlor asks Jack "Friend or family?", he says "neither", because he didn't really consider him a friend given their adversarial relationship.

And for the record, I don't believe that the casket is a "mini casket", so it doesn't have to contain a small person. I think it's a normal casket, and the angles don't really do it justice.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Actually the guy also says "I'm here to rescue you."


That was from the preview for next week.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Regarding the talk about Charlie being able to survive due to air pressure and equalization and all that being sloppy writing... That's assuming HE knew those scientific properties. If Charlie didn't know about those or understand it, or even just in the panic of the moment (added to the thought that he had already accepted his death), it makes perfect sense that he would shut the door to prevent harm to Desmond.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

When the "lawyer" asks Hurley "Are they still alive", was I the only one who didn't think he was asking about Dharma Initiative people? I thought he was talking about The Others. The ones who have been there since who-knows-when. Why did I think that? No idea, just a gut feel.


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## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

The helicopter seemed to do OK when flying over the island. Was the Looking Glass Station not just a signal blocker, but also an electronics jammer of some sort?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

wprager said:


> When the "lawyer" asks Hurley "Are they still alive", was I the only one who didn't think he was asking about Dharma Initiative people? I thought he was talking about The Others. The ones who have been there since who-knows-when. Why did I think that? No idea, just a gut feel.


Dharma, or the Others, or the people on the boat. . . I dunno.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

jenhudson said:


> Regarding the talk about Charlie being able to survive due to air pressure and equalization and all that being sloppy writing... That's assuming HE knew those scientific properties. If Charlie didn't know about those or understand it, or even just in the panic of the moment (added to the thought that he had already accepted his death), it makes perfect sense that he would shut the door to prevent harm to Desmond.


Whether Charlie knows about the scientific properties or not, they are still scientific properties. They will save even the ignorant!! 

The "bad writing" part is not Charlie closing the door, but rather the entire closed-off water-tight compartment filling with water through the porthole. That is not possible.

I don't care, really, but I do see why people are saying it's sloppy writing.


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

I think the wife and I are giving up. we have no idea whats going on. We have seen every episode and are more lost now than last year. We just can't understand why the show would go into the future unless they are just dragging out the show for the money. I hope you all enjoy this nutty show.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

wprager said:


> When the "lawyer" asks Hurley "Are they still alive", was I the only one who didn't think he was asking about Dharma Initiative people? I thought he was talking about The Others. The ones who have been there since who-knows-when. Why did I think that? No idea, just a gut feel.


Really? I thought he was talking about the bodies in the row houses.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I think the wife and I are giving up. we have no idea whats going on. We have seen every episode and are more lost now than last year. We just can't understand why the show would go into the future unless they are just dragging out the show for the money. I hope you all enjoy this nutty show.


We do!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I think the wife and I are giving up. we have no idea whats going on. We have seen every episode and are more lost now than last year. We just can't understand why the show would go into the future unless they are just dragging out the show for the money. I hope you all enjoy this nutty show.


I think you take that view if you view getting off the island as the "end point" or "goal" of the show. It's clear now that it isn't, and I think that's pretty cool, actually.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I think the wife and I are giving up. we have no idea whats going on. We have seen every episode and are more lost now than last year. We just can't understand why the show would go into the future unless they are just dragging out the show for the money. I hope you all enjoy this nutty show.


i'm not giving up, b/c there isn't much else on TV really 

that said, the show is pretty crappy after a stellar start from my point of view. but i've watched much worse, for much longer, so i'll stick with it to see if there is something worthwhile in the end


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

2 questions that have no known answer yet, but here goes.

- Why couldn't Jack do surgery right away after he came back? He was only gone for 90 days + the time of these episodes (which can't be very long, time-wise). Was he in the surgery minor leagues or something?

- If the bad guys make the Oceanic 6 promise not to say anything about the island as a condition of leaving, why let anyone leave? What's in it for the "bad guys"?

Don't forget that Christian was also on Flight 815. Him being one of the 6 would explain Jack's little rant in "Looking Glass" as well as the prescription. Might be a trick explaining how he got dead first in Australia and is now alive, but this is Lost after all.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

johnperkins21 said:


> The acceptance of his fate was good writing. They way they had him die was sloppy and amateurish.


It's not bad writing. As Bryanmc said, it's brilliant writing because he didn't HAVE to die. He could have cheated death again, just like he already had many times. But this time he accepted his fate and made the choice to let karma catch up to him so he could save Claire, Aaron and the rest of the Losties. 


Fl_Gulfer said:


> I think the wife and I are giving up. we have no idea whats going on. We have seen every episode and are more lost now than last year. We just can't understand why the show would go into the future unless they are just dragging out the show for the money. I hope you all enjoy this nutty show.


I can't understand that view at all. I think these last two episodes have added so much intrigue to the series, I can't even imagine someone being turned off by them. Before, we all just wondered about the island and whether they'd ever get off. Now we have not only those questions, but why/how/who got off and why/how/if they're going to get back.

Besides, don't forget that the overall arc of the show was planned out from the beginning, so if you're getting turned off by the show simply because you think they're making it up as they go, you're dead wrong.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> It's not bad writing. As Bryanmc said, it's brilliant writing because he didn't HAVE to die. He could have cheated death again, just like he already had many times. But this time he accepted his fate and made the choice to let karma catch up to him so he could save Claire, Aaron and the rest of the Losties.


But the point they're trying to make is that he COULDN'T have died unless he ducked down under the air and sucked water, because the air would never have left the room above the level of the window. That part is indeed bad writing, unless they have an explanation for why the laws of physics don't apply on the island. (And speaking as somebody who has ENORMOUS respect for the writers of this show, my guess is that in this case they don't have an explanation; they just don't understand the laws of physics well enough to write the scene well.)


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But the point they're trying to make is that he COULDN'T have died unless he ducked down under the air and sucked water, because the air would never have left the room above the level of the window. That part is indeed bad writing, unless they have an explanation for why the laws of physics don't apply on the island. (And speaking as somebody who has ENORMOUS respect for the writers of this show, my guess is that in this case they don't have an explanation; they just don't understand the laws of physics well enough to write the scene well.)


Isn't this unnecessary rush to judgement based on the assumption that the grenade blast *only* blasted the porthole open and *didn't* rupture something else, say a seam above Charlie, that the camera doesn't see (out of frame)? There doesn't have to be much of one to let the air out.


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## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

Anyone notice the drawing that Hurley was doing just before getting his visit from Charlie? An igloo with a guy in a snow suit...looked kind of reminiscent of the ice station guys who reported to Penny about seeing the abnormality after the hatch blew up...


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

It's possible that the writers strike will end this week. If that happens, what are the chances that all 16 episodes will air as originally planned? I would think quite good.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

smickola said:


> Anyone notice the drawing that Hurley was doing just before getting his visit from Charlie? An igloo with a guy in a snow suit...looked kind of reminiscent of the ice station guys who reported to Penny about seeing the abnormality after the hatch blew up...


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

smickola said:


> Anyone notice the drawing that Hurley was doing just before getting his visit from Charlie? An igloo with a guy in a snow suit...looked kind of reminiscent of the ice station guys who reported to Penny about seeing the abnormality after the hatch blew up...


I thought of this IMMEDIATELY when I saw it. They didn't do anything with it, but I'm telling you right now, there was a point for it. Don't forget about Chekhov's Gun...

Greg


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

gchance said:


> I thought of this IMMEDIATELY when I saw it. They didn't do anything with it, but I'm telling you right now, there was a point for it. Don't forget about Chekhov's Gun...
> 
> Greg


Why would Chekhov use a gun and not a phaser?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Why would Chekhov use a gun and not a phaser?


Oh you _must_ be kidding. Anton Chekhov, not Pavel Chekov.

If you show a gun in the first act, it must go off by the third act.

Greg


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

balboa dave said:


> Isn't this unnecessary rush to judgement based on the assumption that the grenade blast *only* blasted the porthole open and *didn't* rupture something else, say a seam above Charlie, that the camera doesn't see (out of frame)? There doesn't have to be much of one to let the air out.


I thought of that too but there are some pretty clear views of the porthole and the wall above it when the water is first rushing in, and also after all the water is in, and there doesn't appear to be any damage at all. All the water is coming in through the porthole: there's no other leak visible.

As I said I don't really care: it in no way diminishes my enjoyment of the show. But, the folks who called them on it do have a point.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I can't understand that view at all. I think these last two episodes have added so much intrigue to the series, I can't even imagine someone being turned off by them. Before, we all just wondered about the island and whether they'd ever get off. Now we have not only those questions, but why/how/who got off and why/how/if they're going to get back.
> 
> Besides, don't forget that the overall arc of the show was planned out from the beginning, so if you're getting turned off by the show simply because you think they're making it up as they go, you're dead wrong.


I couldn't agree more. This would be such a strange time to give up on this show.

I know people who called it quits right after the polar bear showed up. I can see that. And I can see people giving up after Season 2, which was really hit or miss. But if you've hung on this long, well, now things are getting good.

I'm frustrated that they're doing 3 16-episode seasons (not accounting for writer's strike) so that we're still more than 2 years from the finale, but I think the show is still great, and even if I didn't, I'd have a hard time giving up now.

What could anyone expect from the season's first episode other than setting up for action the rest of the season?


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

betts4 said:


> Actually the guy also says "I'm here to rescue you."


No, he didn't. The last thing that's said is, "Are you Jack?"

Information from previews should be in spoiler tags.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I just rewatched the ep--it seemed odd to me that when Jack told the guy on the walkie he was from flight 815, the guy didn't register any surprise. Naomi told them that whole story about finding the wreckage and bodies, so was that a lie, or did she just not know everything the other guy knew? Or maybe that was what happened in the press, but they knew it wasn't true. 

Also, Hurley seemed to have the power to wish Charlie away--Charlie couldn't stay when he closed his eyes and told him to go. But when he did it to Jacob's cabin, it only moved. And when Jack saw him shooting hoops, he said, "don't you ever miss?" which it seemed like he didn't. Sort of like Walt always getting the roll he wanted when he played backgammon. He seemed to be winning at connect four too, but I assumed it was because he was playing with a zombie--maybe not. So has Hurley brought island power back with him?


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> I can't understand that view at all. I think these last two episodes have added so much intrigue to the series, I can't even imagine someone being turned off by them. Before, we all just wondered about the island and whether they'd ever get off. Now we have not only those questions, but why/how/who got off and why/how/if they're going to get back..


your new "intrigue" is my "sloppy go nowhere storytelling". to each his own. it's still better than most shows, even with the disjoint writing


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Also, Hurley seemed to have the power to wish Charlie away--Charlie couldn't stay when he closed his eyes and told him to go. But when he did it to Jacob's cabin, it only moved. And when Jack saw him shooting hoops, he said, "don't you ever miss?" which it seemed like he didn't. Sort of like Walt always getting the roll he wanted when he played backgammon. He seemed to be winning at connect four too, but I assumed it was because he was playing with a zombie--maybe not. So has Hurley brought island power back with him?


Well, he IS a warrior of sorts where he comes from. That should count for something.

Greg


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

IF Ben is the one in the casket, he might have come back because he had to. Remember, the island heals most people, but Ben got cancer on the island. Maybe he has to leave the island to live.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> IF Ben is the one in the casket, he might have come back because he had to. Remember, the island heals most people, but Ben got cancer on the island. Maybe he has to leave the island to live.


If all that is true, it didn't work out so well for him, did it?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> If all that is true, it didn't work out so well for him, did it?


Nope! But didn't the person commit suicide? In which case maybe he didn't want to live anymore away from the island but he couldn't go back there. Both because he would have gotten sick again and it's hard to find the island once you leave it.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> Nope! But didn't the person commit suicide? In which case maybe he didn't want to live anymore away from the island but he couldn't go back there. Both because he would have gotten sick again and it's hard to find the island once you leave it.


Yes, suicide is a very plausible interpretation of what can be read in the obituary.

I'm still leaning toward it being a character who has yet to be introduced. It just seems unlikely to me that anyone we already know (other than Kate) would have assumed some other identity but Jack and Hurley did not. Actually, Sawyer would be another one but I can't see him passing himself off as a New Yorker.

My theory on Hurley's money: If Naomi's story about them all being found dead is true (true in the sense of the general public believing it to be the case), then his parents inherited the money and squandered it. But I tend to think Naomi was lying, because she lied about being sent by Penny, although I can't even imagine why she or whoever she was working with making up such a thing. Anyway, if she was, then I'm sure they'll have to have been on the island a while longer before Hurley would have been presumed dead.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Did Rose and Bernard go with Jack? Lostpedia says that they did. Why would they if they (specifically, Rose) had no intention of leaving the island?


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> Did Rose and Bernard go with Jack? Lostpedia says that they did. Why would they if they (specifically, Rose) had no intention of leaving the island?


Rose has cancer (or something) that went away on the island. They want to stay.

ETA: Oops, I didn't read your post clearly. Did we see who they went with? I know Bernard said to Rose that he would follow her whoever she wanted to go with, but now I don't remember who they went with or if we were shown...


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

I think Rose said something like she didn't want to go with that mad man (referring to Locke).


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## woolybugger (Nov 12, 2004)

I believe she said something along the lines of "I'm not going ANYWHERE with that man". which surprised me with the whole cancer thing.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

It doesn't surprise me that she chose Jack over Locke based solely on the two men, just the implication that Jack means leaving the island and Locke means staying.

Speaking of Bernard, I'm surprised that no one (well, Sayid and Jin) said anything about Bernard spilling his guts to the Others. I guess they gave him a break since he'd had a gun pointed at his head, and everything turned out alright.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Speaking of Bernard, I'm surprised that no one (well, Sayid and Jin) said anything about Bernard spilling his guts to the Others. I guess they gave him a break since he'd had a gun pointed at his head, and everything turned out alright.


It would do no good for Sayid (or Jin) to spill on Bernard. Bernard is not trained to withstand torture. He is a simple man and, rightly or not, believed he was saving Jin's life by giving out information. Why would Sayid or Jin want to cause even more friction in the group?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

A few thoughts after a rewatch:

1) At the beginning of the episode, when Hurley was driving the Camaro, he eventually crashes through at least a dozen mirrors, which I thought was interesting.. (again, showing that we're through the looking glass?)..

2) Jack looked up and really took notice exactly when the reporter said that the car was a vintage Camaro.. (to those wondering how Jack immediately knew).. He's got to have seen it, or at least heard Hurley talking about it. (by the way, on my first viewing, as soon as I saw the car from up top, I knew it was Hurley too).

3) I may be crazy, but there's this guy filming Hurley crashing into the mirrors (wearing an orange vest), and I could have sworn it was Hurley's former boss/employee from the chicken place.. Haven't checked imdb though.

4) The line Charlie was saying to Hurley (that he claimed Hurley already knew and didn't want to hear) was "They need you. You _know_ they need you.". Again - gotta wonder which "they" he's talking about.. Losties? Natives? People on the boat? Dharma people? Pieces of the island?

It it the same "they" as the probably-satan-devil-guy-who-had-no-business-cards asked about? (again, was he talking about Losties? Natives? Dharma people?)

Can't wait to see next week.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> A few thoughts after a rewatch:
> 
> 3) I may be crazy, but there's this guy filming Hurley crashing into the mirrors (wearing an orange vest), and I could have sworn it was Hurley's former boss/employee from the chicken place.. Haven't checked imdb though.
> 
> ...


Don't rush off to Santa Rosa just yet... According to Lostpedia, it was in fact Randy Nations with the camera.

I think it's a safe bet that "they" are people we know - there are certainly more than 6 major characters - and that something happened where the six had to make some sort of choice where they were rescued and everyone else was not. I am sure that if that's correct, that there is MUCH more to the story, especially since at this point Hurley and Jack have gone separate ways. Does the fact that Hurley apologized to Jack mean that Jack was right and Locke (and Ben, if he wasn't just making something up to talk them out of getting rescued) was wrong? We don't even really know if their rescue has anything to do with the supposed freighter that Naomi was on or if it ends up being by some other means entirely.

Personally, I'd be surprised if Claire and Aaron aren't among those rescued. And I think that something will happen that results in their rescue that wouldn't have happened if Charlie hadn't died. It's not like he really NEEDED to lock himself in that chamber in order to ensure that the jamming got turned off. He just did it to fulfill Desmond's vision because he believed Desmond when he said that it wouldn't happen otherwise. I think the only reason he locked Desmond out was to prevent Desmond from saving him. I don't see him getting killed off and then it turning out to have been in vain.


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## Mabes (Jan 12, 2001)

skinnyjm said:


> Excellent point!!!


My wild guess is that it's Ben. Based solely on Kate's comment last year "why would I go to his funeral."


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> IF Ben is the one in the casket, he might have come back because he had to. Remember, the island heals most people, but Ben got cancer on the island. Maybe he has to leave the island to live.


Did we actually find out that he had cancer? I remember Juliet or Jack saying something about doing a biopsy after the surgery but I don't remember anything about results. And it seemed like a pretty fast recovery from the spinal surgery - I don't think he was in the wheelchair very long.


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## Globular (Jun 9, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> 2 questions that have no known answer yet, but here goes.
> 
> - Why couldn't Jack do surgery right away after he came back? He was only gone for 90 days + the time of these episodes (which can't be very long, time-wise). Was he in the surgery minor leagues or something?


Maybe he was declared dead and had to go through red tape to get a medical license again?



Delta13 said:


> - If the bad guys make the Oceanic 6 promise not to say anything about the island as a condition of leaving, why let anyone leave? What's in it for the "bad guys"?


Dunno (yet)


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Mabes said:


> My wild guess is that it's Ben. Based solely on Kate's comment last year "why would I go to his funeral."


When Kate said that, she emphasized the "I", which to me implied that she had some unique reason(s) for not going that wouldn't apply to Jack. I guess a lot could have happened in between, but I would think that if Ben took on an alias that Jack and Kate wouldn't have known about it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I think it's pretty naive of Hurley to think that if he was missing (presumed dead) for 3-4 months, that his estate of over $150 million would be gone. Estates of that size end up in litigation and there's no way it would be settled that quickly. When he returned, he'd basically get it all back, unless he disclaimed it.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Delta13 said:


> 2 questions that have no known answer yet, but here goes.
> 
> - Why couldn't Jack do surgery right away after he came back? He was only gone for 90 days + the time of these episodes (which can't be very long, time-wise). Was he in the surgery minor leagues or something?
> 
> ...


We really have any idea how long Jack was gone. We don't know for sure that their rescue is imminent as it seems to be in this episode. For all we know the current series of events doesn't work out and they end up being on the island for a year or two. The only date we can tie any post-island events to is the date of the newspaper where Jack sees the obituary: April 7, 2007.

Also, we don't know how much time passed between their return and the events in this episode, nor between their return and Jack's return to work. It may not have been an inability to return to practicing medicine. I think most people go ahead and take a few weeks off after returning home after plane crashes on not-so-deserted islands. 

That's a good point if your assumptions is correct, but I've been thinking that it was the Oceanic 6 who had sworn _themselves_ to secrecy. There seems to be a great deal of guilt (on Hurley's part in this episode, and Jack (and to a small degree Kate) later on in "Through the Looking Glass) so it might not be out of coercion that they're not talking.

Christian is dead. Appearing to Jack (assuming it wasn't just hallucinations) is not the same thing as coming back to life and being known to the general public. Jack's references to his father in "Through the Looking Glass" were meant to confuse us as to when it was taking place, and to show us, once we had figured that out, how far off the deep end Jack had gone.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think it's pretty naive of Hurley to think that if he was missing (presumed dead) for 3-4 months, that his estate of over $150 million would be gone. Estates of that size end up in litigation and there's no way it would be settled that quickly. When he returned, he'd basically get it all back, unless he disclaimed it.


Unless he believes Naomi's account that their bodies were found, meaning that they were confirmed dead*, not presumed dead. It might still take some time to settle, but their bodies having been (believed to be) found would certainly have sped things up enough that a reasonable amount of artistic license could make up the difference.

*The use of an upcoming episode title in no way implies any foreknowledge of said episode.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

After watching the recap before the episode, it occurred to me that Locke healed from his gunshot wound to the gut in about one day. And he didn't seem to have a big blood stain on his filthy t-shirt when he showed up again. I doubt that he changed shirts in between crawling out of the mass grave of Dharma corpses and throwing the knife into Naomi's back.

I was also expecting Hurley to fall into the mass grave while running away from Jacob and the shack.


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## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I just rewatched the ep--it seemed odd to me that when Jack told the guy on the walkie he was from flight 815, the guy didn't register any surprise. Naomi told them that whole story about finding the wreckage and bodies, so was that a lie, or did she just not know everything the other guy knew? Or maybe that was what happened in the press, but they knew it wasn't true.


Thanks for bringing that up, I noticed that as well buy forgot to raise that question. And in addition to that, why did Naomi lie to her ship just before she died? She knew that death was imminent for her, what's the benefit in not saying "The natives are dangerous, one of 'em knifed me"?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

thenightfly42 said:


> Thanks for bringing that up, I noticed that as well buy forgot to raise that question. And in addition to that, why did Naomi lie to her ship just before she died? She knew that death was imminent for her, what's the benefit in not saying "The natives are dangerous, one of 'em knifed me"?


Because she used the code "Tell my sister I love her" (or something to that effect) for that.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

As I see it, the "mirror" is the direction the show is now looking. Previously, we had been shown the "present" on the island, and events in the past that forced various people to make decisions. Their actions on the island were in great part a result of decisions and actions from their past. NOW, we are seeing decisions and actions that they are making on the island, and the effects of these on their future. The consequences of past decisions influence what happened on the island, and the decisions that are made on the island influence the future, post-island.

I really don't think that Charlie could possibly have made it through that broken window. His shoulders would never have made it through. This does not excuse the compartment completely filling with water. He knew he was dying, and even made the Catholic "Sign of the Cross" at the end.

Ben told Jack that Naomi and her people have been trying to find the island, and that everyone on the island would be killed. He didn't say that they would die (passive voice) but be killed (active voice). He never said that her people would do the killing though. The assumption is made because the two ideas were voiced together, but it is never definitively stated that Naomi or her people would be the killers. Outsiders (Naomi's people) finding the island could have repercussions resulting in someone else killing the islanders.

Hurley is really good at some games. Wasn't there a ping-pong incident earlier on?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> Hurley is really good at some games. Wasn't there a ping-pong incident earlier on?


Yep. Hugo whupped Sawyer at Ping Pong last year.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Unless he believes Naomi's account that their bodies were found, meaning that they were confirmed dead*, not presumed dead. It might still take some time to settle, but their bodies having been (believed to be) found would certainly have sped things up enough that a reasonable amount of artistic license could make up the difference.
> 
> *The use of an upcoming episode title in no way implies any foreknowledge of said episode.


I don't think it matters whether he was missing or dead. Even if it's clear as a bell who gets the money when he dies, there's still $150 million, and most of it would still be there when he gets back. It's not like his family is going to burn through that much money in a few months.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Sorry for just jumping in at the end here - but wasn't John shot?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Sorry for just jumping in at the end here - but wasn't John shot?


It's just a flesh wound.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think it matters whether he was missing or dead. Even if it's clear as a bell who gets the money when he dies, there's still $150 million, and most of it would still be there when he gets back. It's not like his family is going to burn through that much money in a few months.


It might still "be there" but being (supposedly) confirmed dead, rather than missing, would speed things up as far as turning it over to the new owners. Even if it did go to his family, if it no longer belonged to him and he made no effort to get it back, then he would be free of it.

Of course, this argument is moot since he could just give it away if he wanted to. But I guess it gave him a sense of relief believing that the "paperwork" had probably already been completed.


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## ced6 (Jul 30, 2003)

Okay, so just a few random votes that I think weren't already covered.

1. This may have been mentioned in previous threads, but it's not in this thread to the best of my knowledge - is it possible that the "he" that Kate referred to in last season's finale (when meeting Jack at the airport) is her son. I seem to vaguely remember some sort of indication last season that Kate is pregnant.

2. As for why Desmond doesn't go with Locke. Is it possible that, given his assumed knowledge that once it's time for you to die, it can't be avoided, he decided to go with Jack's crew because it's a chance to be rescued, and if he dies then it was unavoidable anyway.

3. Based on the link to the video that was posted earlier, I think the eye in Jacob's cabin was Jacob's. The noses look similar. Which means that the figure in the chair is the smoke monster? Or something else?

4. I'm confused by those who say Jack didn't drink in the flashbacks, only in the flash-forwards. Well, we know he was drinking on the plane before it crashed. Wasn't there also some issues with alcohol after his wife left him?


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## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Sorry for just jumping in at the end here - but wasn't John shot?


The general assumption was that the bullet went through the spot where is kidney should have been - but remember, his dad stole it from him. Plus, people heal really quickly on this island.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

ced6 said:


> Okay, so just a few random votes that I think weren't already covered.
> 
> 1. This may have been mentioned in previous threads, but it's not in this thread to the best of my knowledge - is it possible that the "he" that Kate referred to in last season's finale (when meeting Jack at the airport) is her son. I seem to vaguely remember some sort of indication last season that Kate is pregnant.
> 
> 2. As for why Desmond doesn't go with Locke. Is it possible that, given his assumed knowledge that once it's time for you to die, it can't be avoided, he decided to go with Jack's crew because it's a chance to be rescued, and if he dies then it was unavoidable anyway.


Juliet and Ben had discussed getting a "sample" from Kate to do a pregnancy test, that's all. Well, that and sperm counts are about 5x normal on the island, we know that Sawyer isn't sterile and it seems unlikely that they'd been using birth control. In any case, if she got pregnant during one of the encounters we've seen between her and Sawyer, that baby would be about 2-1/2 years old during the flash-forward scene with her and Jack. I can't see her leaving the baby alone, and even if she did, "wondering where I am" doesn't seem like the appropriate phrase to describe the child's state of mind.

It could be as simple as Desmond feeling similarly about Locke as Rose did. She's adamant about never wanting to leave, but still went with Jack. I think the incident with Locke's refusal to enter the code might have been enough for him to question Locke's judgment. Plus, while I think he respects Charlie's warning, he has to be wondering about Penny's connection to the Naomi and the freighter people. She did have the picture after all, my guess is he wants to find out what's going on.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

thenightfly42 said:


> The general assumption was that the bullet went through the spot where is kidney should have been - but remember, his dad stole it from him. Plus, people heal really quickly on this island.


That's right, I forgot about the kidney speculation - I've just been thinking about him seeing Walt and the island healing thing. I think we'd have gotten an explanation about that by now but given everything that's intervened it doesn't seem like there'd be any reason to bring it up since they haven't already. He and Ben have been in each other's presence and neither has mentioned anything about it, IIRC.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ced6 said:


> Okay, so just a few random votes that I think weren't already covered.
> 
> 1. This may have been mentioned in previous threads, but it's not in this thread to the best of my knowledge - is it possible that the "he" that Kate referred to in last season's finale (when meeting Jack at the airport) is her son. I seem to vaguely remember some sort of indication last season that Kate is pregnant.


Yes, it's been speculated many times that she was referring to a son.

And there was an exchange between Kate and Sawyer in last season's finale where she started to tell him that Juliet had come to their side of the island to do a pregnancy test on Sun, and had done one on Kate as well. Before she got a chance to tell him what the results were, Sawyer snarled something like "I hope it was negative" leaving Kate standing there looking shocked and hurt. So it's possible she was about to tell him she was pregnant, but didn't get the chance.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Also, we don't know how much time passed between their return and the events in this episode, nor between their return and Jack's return to work. It may not have been an inability to return to practicing medicine. I think most people go ahead and take a few weeks off after returning home after plane crashes on not-so-deserted islands.


along these lines, why the heck is everyone here assuming that this episode's flash forwards are BEFORE last year's finale's flash forwards?? I figured it was AFTER.

And the whole deal about Jack back to doing doctor things that Hurley asked, was that he has now stopped drinking and gotten back into his life. This would also make sense that Jack has accepted that they are never going back.

That is, in the Looking Glass, Jack was drunk, still looking to go back. But in this episode, he has accepted that they can't go back, sobered up, and is practicing medicine again.

am i missing something??

did someone else already post this and i just missed it?


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I was just assuming the opposite. That this was before Jack went off the deep end and grew the beard. I don't know if there was some sort of time reference in the flash forwards or not, like on the TV screen or something.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

milo99 said:


> along these lines, why the heck is everyone here assuming that this episode's flash forwards are BEFORE last year's finale's flash forwards?? I figured it was AFTER.
> 
> And the whole deal about Jack back to doing doctor things that Hurley asked, was that he has now stopped drinking and gotten back into his life. This would also make sense that Jack has accepted that they are never going back.
> 
> ...


I don't think that people normally go from Jack's condition in the season finale to his sober condition in this episode, but still have a glass of vodka and OJ first thing in the morning. I think for most recovering alcoholics, a drink in the morning like that would be the first of many. I think that, and the "thinking of growing a beard" remark were hints of things to come. As for being adamant about not going back, I think he was at the time but the encounter with Hurley is what put him on the path to wanting to go back, as in the meeting with Kate. As for "practicing medicine _again_ I took Hurley to mean "_again_ since returning home from the island. Also, Jack's comments about the repoters leaving him alone and people asking for autographs made it seem that his "fame" had just started to fade, unlike Looking Glass where people only seemed to recognize him because he'd been in the news again after the car crash.


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## ced6 (Jul 30, 2003)

I assumed the Hurley flash-forwards happened before the Jack flash-forwards from the finale because of Jack's statement that he might grow a beard. Hurley then stated that Jack would look weird with a beard. Now, it's possible that Jack had grown a beard and shaved it off already, and Hurley had never seen it, but I just assumed this was a hint to the viewers as to the timeline.

Oh, and how do we know that the Jack and Kate meeting was 2.5 years after they got off the island? Did they say this or is this just speculation (sorry, can't remember).


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

stalemate said:


> Right, but the guy asking didn't seem to consider it a possibility that maybe she lived for a while on the island after it crashed. He asked Hurley if he met her on the plane. He didn't ask, "Hey Hugo, did you live with Anna Lucia for a while on the island but she just didn't make it off the island?"
> 
> I just interpret the wording of his question to mean that everyone thinks the Oceanic 6 are the only ones to survive the initial crash and that the big secret that the Oceanic 6 are hiding is the fact that there are other people alive on the island.
> 
> I'm reading a lot into it I know but that's what these threads are for right?


I think that's clearly what they're suggesting. The phrasing of the question and Hurley's lie and hurrying to change the subject leave me no doubt. Whatever it is that they're keeping secret certainly had nothing to do with A-L herself, since she was dead. Hurley's a nice guy; I think he would have shared the info with the cop if it weren't an integral part of the secret they're hiding.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

ced6 said:


> I assumed the Hurley flash-forwards happened before the Jack flash-forwards from the finale because of Jack's statement that he might grow a beard. Hurley then stated that Jack would look weird with a beard. Now, it's possible that Jack had grown a beard and shaved it off already, and Hurley had never seen it, but I just assumed this was a hint to the viewers as to the timeline.
> 
> Oh, and how do we know that the Jack and Kate meeting was 2.5 years after they got off the island? Did they say this or is this just speculation (sorry, can't remember).


The newspaper in which Jack found the obituary was dated April 5, 2007. He was flying home April 7, which was a Saturday (he had been flying to various places every Friday night). The current on-island date is December 23, 2004. So actually if Kate is pregnant the baby would only be about 1-1/2, not 2-1/2, sorry.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> I don't think that people normally go from Jack's condition in the season finale to his sober condition in this episode, but still have a glass of vodka and OJ first thing in the morning. I think for most recovering alcoholics, a drink in the morning like that would be the first of many. I think that, and the "thinking of growing a beard" remark were hints of things to come. As for being adamant about not going back, I think he was at the time but the encounter with Hurley is what put him on the path to wanting to go back, as in the meeting with Kate. As for "practicing medicine _again_ I took Hurley to mean "_again_ since returning home from the island. Also, Jack's comments about the repoters leaving him alone and people asking for autographs made it seem that his "fame" had just started to fade, unlike Looking Glass where people only seemed to recognize him because he'd been in the news again after the car crash.


see that's interesting because i took the beard comment as Jack thinking to grow it back (that he kinda missed it from his alcy days), and chuckled at Hugo's comment because while sporting it, he was a drunk and did kinda look bad with it (and Hugo hadn't seen him with it).

but that's interesting.. especially regarding the fame. i totally forgot about that.. he got recognized in the previous episode.. in the hospital was it? shoulda watched it again before this premiere


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

milo99 said:


> see that's interesting because i took the beard comment as Jack thinking to grow it back (that he kinda missed it from his alcy days), and chuckled at Hugo's comment because while sporting it, he was a drunk and did kinda look bad with it (and Hugo hadn't seen him with it).
> 
> but that's interesting.. especially regarding the fame. i totally forgot about that.. he got recognized in the previous episode.. in the hospital was it? shoulda watched it again before this premiere


He was in line at the pharmacy trying to get the prescription refilled. But it wasn't until he was in an argument with the pharmacist and was drawing attention that the guy recognized him. That didn't make it seem as though reporters were just starting to leave him alone.

As for the humor, I thought it was just because growing a beard is what someone would do while stranded on a deserted island. Not particularly funny, which is why I think it was really just a device to establish a time sequence.

FWIW, Lostpedia says that this one happened first, although no specific dates are known.


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## Steve_Martin (Jul 18, 2004)

Maybe the guy in the coffin is some parallel time-travelling version of Jack himself...


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Maybe part of the reason they lied about how everyone died is that EVERYONE DIED! If they tried to explain what happened to them--Nikki and Paulo, Anna, Libby, Charlie, Boone and Shannon etc.-they start to sound like a bunch of crazy murderers. Especially if more die in the rescue attempt. Maybe there aren't any other people from the plane who want to be found. Locke and Rose might still be there, and the Others, but a lot of people are gone in suspicious circumstances. Especially if you don't understand "island magic."


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

If everyone had died, then why the messages "They need you"? I fear that "the six" made some kind of deal to get off the island leaving everyone else there. The terms of that deal included a demand that no one else ever know that there were any other survivors. Jack asks Hurley if he was thinking of telling. As soon as Jack was satisfied that Hurley was going to maintain his silence, he left in a big hurry. Whatever deal they made, it's eating at Hurley's sanity, and in the future, it's triggering Jack's alcoholism, (not solely responsible, but a crucial, contributing factor). I sense, Kate isn't too far behind.

Off topic:
Was that model airplane in the safety deposit box ever fully explained? If I remember, Kate killed at least one person to get that plastic model.

Didn't Ben say that he had a machine that would give you whatever you wanted? Were there conditions to it's use? Maybe "The Six" used it to get home, somehow. Locke joked that the box had better be big enough to fit a replacement submarine, but having a sub wasn't what Ben wanted, at that moment, he wanted it gone, and Locke did that for him.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Church AV Guy said:


> If everyone had died, then why the messages "They need you"? I fear that "the six" made some kind of deal to get off the island leaving everyone else there. The terms of that deal included a demand that no one else ever know that there were any other survivors. Jack asks Hurley if he was thinking of telling. As soon as Jack was satisfied that Hurley was going to maintain his silence, he left in a big hurry. Whatever deal they made, it's eating at Hurley's sanity, and in the future, it's triggering Jack's alcoholism, (not solely responsible, but a crucial, contributing factor). I sense, Kate isn't too far behind.
> 
> Off topic:
> Was that model airplane in the safety deposit box ever fully explained? If I remember, Kate killed at least one person to get that plastic model.
> ...


I'm with you on the "they need you" making no sense whatsoever if the rest of them died. Why would Jack or Hurley even be thinking of going back if everyone else were dead? I'm not convinced about too many details beyond that, but all of them being dead doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

But I disagree about Kate. She didn't seem to be nearly as bothered about things as Jack was. She seemed more like Jack seemed in this episode - saying there was no need to go back. Of course, something could trigger a change in her, but I just don't think we've seen any indication of that yet.

I don't think we were ever given any conclusive reason to believe that Ben should be taken literally about that box.

Yes, the toy plane was fully explained. Well, I certainly can't think of any significant unanswered questions. She shot her three accomplices but as far as we know didn't kill any of them.


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## ced6 (Jul 30, 2003)

Also, why would they have to lie about everyone dying if they were actually dead? They were in a plane crash. No one would assume they were murderers, just that they were the only ones that survived the crash.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Church AV Guy said:


> Didn't Ben say that he had a machine that would give you whatever you wanted?


Ben then said the "box" was just a metaphor. Cruse and Lindelof have said the same thing, but they've been known to mislead people from time to time and have also said "the entire island is a magic box". http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Box

On the Blu-ray Lost S3 DVD Cruse and Lindelof mentioned that


Spoiler



Cooper was kidnapped, drugged, and brought to the island by submarine.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

ced6 said:


> Also, why would they have to lie about everyone dying if they were actually dead? They were in a plane crash. No one would assume they were murderers, just that they were the only ones that survived the crash.


Yes but we know they didn't die in the crash. We seem to agree that they most likely didn't die so the point is somewhat moot, but if they had died then it seems that it would have been a consequence of whatever the Six did to ensure their own rescue, so they would have something to lie about. Not murder necessarily, but something.

However, evidently not everyone believes their story that they were the only survivors, hence Hurley's visitor in the hospital. He evidently doesn't think they were murderers since he seems to believe that "they" are still alive, but he clearly doesn't believe they were the only survivors of the crash. Which sort of begs the question, how plausible is it that in a crash that killed probably over 100 people (~48 beach survivors, ~23 tailies, however many who actually did die), that 6 of them got through it just fine? If the story that the Oceanic Six told people is what we are speculating it is, I'd be surprised that more people don't question it.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Ben then said the "box" was just a metaphor. Cruse and Lindelof have said the same thing, but they've been known to mislead people from time to time and have also said "the entire island is a magic box". http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Box
> 
> On the Blu-ray Lost S3 DVD Cruse and Lindelof mentioned that
> 
> ...


I think we were able to surmise that from what Cooper said in that episode, but I guess you never know if a narrator is reliable in this show.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I haven't read the whole thread, but can someone refresh my memory on what the coffin was?

My guess for the Oceanic Six are the ones they highlighted in the recap episode:
Jack
Kate
Hurley
Sawyer
Locke
Sayid

Oh, and was this the first season that didn't start with a closeup of an eye?


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but can someone refresh my memory on what the coffin was?


In the finale, Jack went to a funeral parlor for a viewing. The funeral directior said that no one showed up and Jack was the only one. He also asked Jack if he was "friend or family" but Jack told him neither. The casket was closed, so we have no idea who was in there.

Later on, Jack asked Kate if she had heard about the death. He thought she would have been to the ceremony but she looked shocked saying something to Jack like "why would _I _go to the funeral?".


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but can someone refresh my memory on what the coffin was?
> 
> My guess for the Oceanic Six are the ones they highlighted in the recap episode:
> Jack
> ...


Yes. Also the first season premiere where the off-island scenes were not Jack-centric.

Jack and Hurley are confirmed barring some pretty convoluted false narration. Maybe Kate, but it begs a lot of questions as to how she avoided prosecution. Of course, not counting her begs the question as to how she made it back, so who knows. I'd be surprised if Locke came back. Sayid I could see. I have a hard time not including Sun and Jin.


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## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

gchance said:


> Oh you _must_ be kidding. Anton Chekhov, not Pavel Chekov.
> 
> If you show a gun in the first act, it must go off by the third act.
> 
> Greg


SO is Anton PAvel's father or brother. If father, would he not have used the predecessor of the phaser the disruptor? If brother I suppose he could favor a photon weapon of some kind.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Jack and Hurley are confirmed barring some pretty convoluted false narration. Maybe Kate, but it begs a lot of questions as to how she avoided prosecution. Of course, not counting her begs the question as to how she made it back, so who knows. I'd be surprised if Locke came back. Sayid I could see. I have a hard time not including Sun and Jin.


Again, Kate could have been returned to the mainland with the condition that her arrest warrants would be "taken care of" as long as she kept silent.
Or they could have given her a new identity....


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Again, Kate could have been returned to the mainland with the condition that her arrest warrants would be "taken care of" as long as she kept silent.
> Or they could have given her a new identity....


There are lots of plausible explanations. Actually, while I think it would be much more "lost-esque" that she _isn't_ one of the six, I think that would be more difficult to explain, given what we know at this time. Their return was evidently very high profile, so I can't imagine she took on the identity of one of the other survivors. And it certainly would have been known to the Feds that she'd been on the flight. Only thing I can think of is that they hid her somehow on their way back.

Either way, my point is simply that her status as an Oceanic Six member is uncertain.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

jeff125va said:


> Either way, my point is simply that her status as an Oceanic Six member is uncertain.


Agreed. Kate cannot be one of the Oceanic 6. No way would she be pardoned or given a new identity just for being in a plane crash. I'm not going to go into details, but personal experience tells me that the law doesn't cut you any slack, even when you've been in an unfortunate circumstance like a plane crash.


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## chavez (Nov 18, 2004)

> but personal experience tells me that the law doesn't cut you any slack, even when you've been in an unfortunate circumstance like a plane crash.


does personal experience tell you that smoke monsters exist? it's a tv show. it's entirely plausible that kate had strings pulled for immunity from prosecution.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

chavez said:


> does personal experience tell you that smoke monsters exist? it's a tv show. it's entirely plausible that kate had strings pulled for immunity from prosecution.


I realized the inherit contradiction as I wrote it. Here's how I rationalized it:

The supernatural things that we've been shown have happened on the island: visions (Walt, Christian Shepard, Horse, etc.), the Smoke Monster, Patchy's apparent 9 lives. I'm fine with all of those things because it's a TV show, and weird stuff happens on the island.

Off island though, suspension of disbelief is less of a necessity. Yes, Hurley used the numbers to win the lottery, and Walt can make wierd stuff happen, but by and large, the real world on Lost plays by the same rules as the real world that we are in.

Count me in the Kate is not one of the Oceanic 6 camp...


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

TheMerk said:


> Agreed. Kate cannot be one of the Oceanic 6. No way would she be pardoned or given a new identity just for being in a plane crash. I'm not going to go into details, but personal experience tells me that the law doesn't cut you any slack, even when you've been in an unfortunate circumstance like a plane crash.


It doesn't sound like we actually agree. I said it's uncertain, you seem certain that she isn't. There are other possibilities besides those you mentioned, including, I'm sure, some that we haven't seen enough yet to be able to even think of.


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## Steve_Martin (Jul 18, 2004)

TheMerk said:


> Off island though, suspension of disbelief is less of a necessity. *Yes, Hurley used the numbers to win the lottery*, and Walt can make wierd stuff happen, but by and large, the real world on Lost plays by the same rules as the real world that we are in.
> 
> Count me in the Kate is not one of the Oceanic 6 camp...


Hmm, I still think there's some time travel involved.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

This isn't a spoiler, but in the preview for next week, I caught site of a short asian actor who seemed very famliar: I'm positive he played a mental patient, and helped a main character escape, but I can't remember the show (or movie.) Was it the final Journeyman?

edit: he wasn't playing a mental patient on Lost, just in the show I remembered.


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## Steve_Martin (Jul 18, 2004)

To me, the guy at the mental facility that told Hurley someone was looking at him looked like Hurley's imaginary friend Dave, but with hair.


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## ced6 (Jul 30, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> This isn't a spoiler, but in the preview for next week, I caught site of a short asian actor who seemed very famliar: I'm positive he played a mental patient, and helped a main character escape, but I can't remember the show (or movie.) Was it the final Journeyman?
> 
> edit: he wasn't playing a mental patient on Lost, just in the show I remembered.


I think he was on Burn Notice. He played the guy who was house-sitting and his girlfriend thought it was his house. I believe she was kidnapped for ransom, though I don't remember the details.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I keep thinking about the theory linked to earlier in the thread (I'm spoilerizing because I like the theory so much and don't want those who would like to be left completely in the dark see it, in case it's true ):


Spoiler



that when they were taken off the island, the events that led them to the island (Kate murdering her dad, Jack "ratting out" his dad, Hurley winning the lottery etc) have been erased. They have been given a second chance.
But for some reason, it just doesn't work for them. That's why Jack needs to go back, but can't - he realizes that getting the do-over is a curse, not a blessing.


I think it's a really cool theory, though I'm not sure if it would work.


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

Gee... I was just about to make comments really similar to the ones MickeS made above! I think it's a pretty intriguing premise.

Also, regarding all the talk about what kind of a secret deal did the Oceanic 6 make, in return for being rescued... The freighter people obviously would want their real objective for coming to the island (whatever that is exactly) to be concealed. I'd think that covering their tracks would have to be a factor in *the Deal*, in addition to any other terms.(like who was alive/what went on)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

...assuming it's the freighter people who got them off the island...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

12.5 hours left...


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## woolybugger (Nov 12, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> 12.5 hours left...


YAY!!!!!


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...assuming it's the freighter people who got them off the island...


And that there was a "deal." They may have just done something so unspeakable that they made a pact among themselves never to tell anyone. Not that I think they would have done something like that unless they were facing a nearly impossible moral quandary, just saying that the reason they're keeping a secret might not have been something imposed upon them.

As for the theory MickeS mentioned, I sure hope not. I like the level of supernaturalness that the show has, especially the way it's been given to us in small doses, and usually with the possibility that there is indeed a rational explanation behind it (which there sometimes turns out to be). But something like that would just be completely over the top in terms of suspension of disbelief.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

woolybugger said:


> YAY!!!!!


Or is it "Yea!!" 

Either way - I am ready!!!!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

MickeS said:


> I keep thinking about the theory linked to earlier in the thread (I'm spoilerizing because I like the theory so much and don't want those who would like to be left completely in the dark see it, in case it's true ):
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


It is a cool theory and would explain a few of the things we all wondered about.

I have found with Lost I am going to think about it all just for so long and then sit back and enjoy the ride. The twists and turns and tosses of new stuff make this show so much fun!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> As for the theory MickeS mentioned, I sure hope not. I like the level of supernaturalness that the show has, especially the way it's been given to us in small doses, and usually with the possibility that there is indeed a rational explanation behind it (which there sometimes turns out to be). But something like that would just be completely over the top in terms of suspension of disbelief.


..plus, the real problem that would cause for me is.. (well I guess I'll continue the spoiler tags)


Spoiler



.. why they remember anything..

If things in their lives changed to keep them from arriving on the island, then why do they even know each other, and why are they the Oceanic Six? Even if you said the six of them now all fell in a raft mid-free-fall and didn't even see the island (which is now the only way they'd know each other and still be the famous Oceanic Six AND not get on the island in the first place), then why would they think there was a "they" to get back to?
Plus, Jack said to Kate that it was a mistake to leave.. They left - they'd been there and they left. Hurley remembers Charlie diving down to the looking glass!


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Maybe Mephisto erased stuff 

(Spider-Man reference)

Forgive me for not going back thru all the pages but as this week's ABC.com mini-movie been discussed here yet? It's got what I consider to be a pretty major reveal.



Spoiler



Jack's father is shown on the island - sans shoes - sorta Charlie-ghost-like - at the time of the crash and sends Walt's dog to wake Jack up. Meaning that perhaps Jack's dad was not merely a figment of Jack's imagination in season 1. If so, it brings some validation to the theory that Charlie also just isn't in Hurley's mind and Hurley did see Christian in Jacob's chair.

And maybe Jack continues to see him off-island which is why he mentions him being "alive" in the season 3 finale.

Of course, the way we Jack's eye it COULD be all his dream


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> Forgive me for not going back thru all the pages but as this week's ABC.com mini-movie been discussed here yet? It's got what I consider to be a pretty major reveal.


It was discussed in this thread.

Greg


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, i did a search and couldn't find anything. Anyone else notice on the commercial for this weeks episode, (and presumably all commercials) at the end when the Lost logo comes up with the island in the background, there is a reflection of a city skyline in the water instead of a reflection of the island.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

SocratesJohnson said:


> Forgive me if this has been discussed before, i did a search and couldn't find anything. Anyone else notice on the commercial for this weeks episode, (and presumably all commercials) at the end when the Lost logo comes up with the island in the background, there is a reflection of a city skyline in the water instead of a reflection of the island.


Yes, I noticed that too and was wondering what it meant.... But I never delved into it. A search of Lospedia for "skyline" doesn't turn up anything about it.

Edit:
I just turned up two threads about it at the Lostpedia forums:
http://forum.lostpedia.com/showthread.php?t=8936
http://forum.lostpedia.com/showthread.php?t=8428

I didn't even realize there were forums over there. I just thought it was a wiki and some blogs.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

What is abc.com's mini movie?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> What is abc.com's mini movie?


It's the "mobisodes" that were originally sent to cell phones but were placed on the web later.

All of them are here. If you watch them, do yourself a favor and watch in order. Not that it matters I suppose, but you'll want to wait for #13.

Greg


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## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

SocratesJohnson said:


> Forgive me if this has been discussed before, i did a search and couldn't find anything. Anyone else notice on the commercial for this weeks episode, (and presumably all commercials) at the end when the Lost logo comes up with the island in the background, there is a reflection of a city skyline in the water instead of a reflection of the island.


I think that's just ABC's marketing of a season that covers island life vs. return to the civilization life.

I've seen some speculation in this thread about the timelime of return of Oceanic six. All we know is that it's sometime between December 2004 and April 2007. (The last known reference to time is a few episodes before the season finale, someome said they crashed "three months ago" - the printout in the hatch revealed this to September 22, 2004 - the same as the show's premiere date).

I'm suspecting that the writers will soon intro an episode with something with a caption like "two years later" - where we are lead to believe that the Locke Faction and the Jack Faction seperate further. Perhaps the "Naomi-boat people" take hostages of one of the factions for a year or so, and those remaining free attempt a rescue - but are given the option of returning to civilization, with some "conditions"...


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## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

Oops! Duplicate.


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## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> What would I say to make you look bad? What were you saying that you thought I would have input on?


Nothing of the sort, I was just saying you are NOT afraid to speak your mind. For example, see the rest of your post ! 
The only thing we differ on, is that I like the Wildcats.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

johnperkins21 said:


> When they showed the room completely filled, above the port hole, it was just bad writing.


It's clear to me that Charlie drowning was the point, as required by the plot. The bad writing is simply having the porthole in the wrong place.



jeff125va said:


> Hurley's a nice guy; I think he would have shared the info with the cop if it weren't an integral part of the secret they're hiding.


Hurley is also agonizing over a lot of bad stuff, not least of which is the murder of the first woman ever to give him hope he'd be loved. Ana Lucia's death might just be something he doesn't want to talk about. Not that I'm disagreeing with you: it will probably turn out to be part of the secret, but it doesn't have to be.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Hunter Green said:


> Hurley is also agonizing over a lot of bad stuff, not least of which is the murder of the first woman ever to give him hope he'd be loved. Ana Lucia's death might just be something he doesn't want to talk about. Not that I'm disagreeing with you: it will probably turn out to be part of the secret, but it doesn't have to be.


While I am sure Hurley is concerned about Ana Lucia's death, I believe he would be more distraught about Libby's.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

teknikel said:


> While I am sure Hurley is concerned about Ana Lucia's death, I believe he would be more distraught about Libby's.


But the cop was asking him about Ana Lucia, wasn't he?


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I think to Hurley they're both one big topic he'd rather not think about, not two separate and unrelated events.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But the cop was asking him about Ana Lucia, wasn't he?


Yes. you are right. I missed something when I replied. Ignore me as usual.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> It's clear to me that Charlie drowning was the point, as required by the plot. The bad writing is simply having the porthole in the wrong place.
> 
> Hurley is also agonizing over a lot of bad stuff, not least of which is the murder of the first woman ever to give him hope he'd be loved. Ana Lucia's death might just be something he doesn't want to talk about. Not that I'm disagreeing with you: it will probably turn out to be part of the secret, but it doesn't have to be.


That's a good point, it was basically a double-murder of A-L and Libby. But, (Spoiler from "Eggtown")


Spoiler



based on what Jack said on the witness stand, we know for sure that they are claiming that there were only 8 who even initially survived the crash.


By the way, you're forgetting about his girlfriend Starla. IMHO, way hotter than Libby, and she's not too shabby herself.


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