# Now I'm scared to get a Series 3....



## garys (Feb 2, 2002)

I got in under the lifetime-transfer wire, ordering my Series 3 on 12/31/06. I'm eligible to transfer my lifetime subscription from my S2 to the new S3.

However, after ordering I started reading these forums, and it seems that few people are able to even get the S3 working reliably. My S3 will arrive shortly, and I'm not sure whether to open the box or simply return it to Amazon for a refund.

From what I've read, here are the concerns:

1. Comcast (I'm in Fresno, CA, so I have Comcast) will do whatever it can to prevent the Tivo S3 from working with the cable cards, thereby preserving its DVR rental revenue. So the cable company acts as hostile toward Tivo functionality as possible.
2. Cable cards have inherently complex setup procedures that require full-on cooperation from Comcast, something I'm unlikely to see given #1 above.
3. The Series 3 suffers from audio dropout.
4. The Tivo to Go and, more importantly, multi-room viewing, features are not currently implemented and require permission and approval from a consortium representing the interests of content providers and cable companies in order to implement. I'm just plain assuming that permission will never come.
5. The Series 3 can randomly reboot at times.
6. The Series 3 will never be capable of on-demand (although downloaded content, while not available instantly, on-demand, seems likely).
7. The Series 3 storage space is too small for HD programming, but upgrades are expensive, violate the (very short anyhow) warranty, raise the possibility of having to get the cable cards working again (see #1), and, as far as external storage, require permission from a third party (see #4).
8. In theory, existing (and rentable!) Comcast DVRs will be able to run Tivo's software for an additional fee in the next year or so.

Sadly, while the tivo community forum has, in the past, prodded me into buying the newest Tivo products, this time I think I've been warned off. Unless something changes, I'm just going to ship my Series 3, unopened, back to Amazon. Mostly, I'm simply not convinced that I can get it working without having some kind of war with Comcast, and if I get it working, I'm not convinced that it will function reliably. So why would I transfer my lifetime subscription from a perfectly functioning S2 to a questionable S3? I guess I wouldn't.

Please talk me out of returning my S3! I want to believe in Tivo, I just can't get there given what I've read on these forums.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

garys said:


> _(...)_ it seems that few people are able to even get the S3 working reliably _(...)_


That's not the case at all. It's just the the people with issues are the ones posting about their problems and the people without issues don't really post just to say that it's working fine.

Search around and there are a bunch of "My S3 works great!" threads...


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## Thos19 (Dec 31, 2002)

It's a great purchase....don't be scared off.

Thos.


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

I always buy something I'm not sure about from a merchant that allows 30 days return. Not sure if Amazon does that and if not I would refuse it and get it somewhere else.

Get your Comcast install scheduled right away so that you have the max time possible to check out the S3 before doing the LT transfer. Comcast seems to be doing a relatively good job in Calif with cablecard installs. 

The S3 has a grace period of about one week for TiVo sub and TiVo allows 30 cancellation if you get a paid plan. Also I think even if you do the LT transfer, you can reverse it within 60 days.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

If you're that worried, then just make sure you test everything out thoroughly before your return window has expired. Keep all the boxes and packaging. Keep the receipt handy.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

There's tons of FUD threads started by Chicken Littles out there.

The S3 is well worth the bucks, and I am very pleased how well it works.


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## sammick (Mar 1, 2003)

I found Comcast here in Seattle to be most helpful--I just went to the office and picked up the cards(the gal said they didn't have to be zapped) I installed them myself and then called Comcast--they told me they had to be zapped--they did in in 20 seconds and I've never had problems--

I highly recommend Comcast here in Seattle--really great customer service as far as I am concerned.


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## stoli412 (Nov 22, 2003)

I haven't had any problems with my Series 3. No audio dropouts, no reboots, etc. It has worked splendidly since the day I got it.

CableCard setup was a little tricky, but I think that's due to the newness of the technology. For me it required only one visit (the techs were here for a few hours), which is far more typical than the multi-visit, multi-technician, multi-card fiascoes that have been posted here.

No OnDemand/PPV does kind of suck. However, my local Comcast offers a FREE digital box if you have a CableCard. No additional outlet/equipment rental/programming fees. They really want people to have OnDemand/PPV because it makes them money. The free box is SD only; I opted to pay $5 for the HD box because we have quite a bit of HD OnDemand here.

Expandable storage is an issue. My guess is that the e-sata port will be activated fairly soon (within 6 months???). It seems to be the least controversial unactivated feature in the eyes of CableLabs.

TTG and MRV are another issue. My guess is that MRV will be allowed eventually, possibly only for SD content, due to content protection and/or bandwidth limitations. TTG is another story. I doubt we'll ever see CableLabs approve TTG, especially for HD and maybe not even for SD (since even SD is now a perfect digital copy with the advent of ADS).

Finally, I don't think you should hold out for the ComcasTiVo. It's going to have even more limited storage than the S3 (300GB vs 120/160GB). It most likely won't have Remote Ccheduling, TiVoCast, Home Media Option, TTG, or MRV. I wouldn't expect much more than a DirecTiVo in terms of features. And don't forget that it's going to run on the horrible Moto 64xx/34xx boxes. Those boxes have a lot of firmware problems that I suspect will continue to manifest themselves even when running TiVo software. Plus, Comcast keeps pushing back the release date....who knows when we'll actually see them.

Honestly, keep the S3. You'll be much better off in the long run. And keep your fingers crossed for TTG and MRV!!!


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## kmackenz (Aug 22, 2003)

I love mine far superior to the cable company DVR and for me the cable card setup took less then an hour with a local cable company that had never seen a series 3 before. Picture is better then the motorola box, sound is better... sure, so signal issues but you can't blame the box for the quality of the signal.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

garys said:


> 1. Comcast (I'm in Fresno, CA, so I have Comcast) will do whatever it can to prevent the Tivo S3 from working with the cable cards, thereby preserving its DVR rental revenue. So the cable company acts as hostile toward Tivo functionality as possible.


 Entirely not true.



> 2. Cable cards have inherently complex setup procedures that require full-on cooperation from Comcast, something I'm unlikely to see given #1 above.


 Not necessarily "full on cooperation", just a tech that knows what they are doing. Plenty of setups went just fine.



> 3. The Series 3 suffers from audio dropout.


Been lots of talk about this on the forum, but it isn't something that I've noticed. You'll never know if it will affect you unless you unpack it and try it out.



> 4. The Tivo to Go and, more importantly, multi-room viewing, features are not currently implemented and require permission and approval from a consortium representing the interests of content providers and cable companies in order to implement. I'm just plain assuming that permission will never come.


I don't think that's a safe assumption. I would think that Tivo will eventually get something working. Cable Labs is only supposed to evaluate for 6 months before making a decision - once the decision is made Tivo should be able to get to work coding up any changes that CL requires.



> 5. The Series 3 can randomly reboot at times.


 http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=319421



> 6. The Series 3 will never be capable of on-demand (although downloaded content, while not available instantly, on-demand, seems likely).


 Been lots of discussion on this one. Unless you're looking for programming that isn't broadcast (I'm not aware of much), you can have as much "On Demand" as fits on your hard drive. Isn't that the whole point of a DVR?



> 7. The Series 3 storage space is too small for HD programming, but upgrades are expensive, violate the (very short anyhow) warranty, raise the possibility of having to get the cable cards working again (see #1), and, as far as external storage, require permission from a third party (see #4).


Not true. Lots and lots of people have upgraded with no problem. Many more (like myself) find that there is plenty of space on the internal hard drive.



> 8. In theory, existing (and rentable!) Comcast DVRs will be able to run Tivo's software for an additional fee in the next year or so.


True, but not likely to be as full featured as the S3, and available now.



> Sadly, while the tivo community forum has, in the past, prodded me into buying the newest Tivo products, this time I think I've been warned off. Unless something changes, I'm just going to ship my Series 3, unopened, back to Amazon. Mostly, I'm simply not convinced that I can get it working without having some kind of war with Comcast, and if I get it working, I'm not convinced that it will function reliably. So why would I transfer my lifetime subscription from a perfectly functioning S2 to a questionable S3? I guess I wouldn't.


That would be an amazingly foolish move. Check out some of these polls (especially the first one) - they're not scientific by any means, but give a more representative look at the issues people are having.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=330242

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=331817


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

I love mine, as does my neightbor. I went through three Comcast DVRs and hated them all. You might consider buying from Costco. Their price is low and return policy is great in case of the low probability you get a lemon.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

The S3 is a great DVR. So much better then what I had before. Don't be afraird, the vast majority of us love the S3.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

garys said:


> 7. The Series 3 storage space is too small for HD programming, but upgrades are expensive


If you think the S3 HDD is too small, wait till you get the Comcast DVR. If you are getting the Moto boxes, you don't even have any option to increase the storage.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Gregor said:


> There's tons of FUD threads started by Chicken Littles out there.
> 
> The S3 is well worth the bucks, and I am very pleased how well it works.


There are also a lot of threads with legitimate concerns. Thankfully, most of the concerns are software issues which you would come to expect with new hardware. The incompetence of cable companies is not really something anyone can control, but at the end of the day it shouldn't really affect your decision to keep the S3 or not.


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## TostitoBandito (Sep 18, 2006)

garys said:


> I got in under the lifetime-transfer wire, ordering my Series 3 on 12/31/06. I'm eligible to transfer my lifetime subscription from my S2 to the new S3.
> 
> However, after ordering I started reading these forums, and it seems that few people are able to even get the S3 working reliably. My S3 will arrive shortly, and I'm not sure whether to open the box or simply return it to Amazon for a refund.
> 
> ...


1. I don't live there so I don't know first hand, but all I had to do with Comcast where I live is walk in and ask for two cablecards. I walked out with two cablecards.

2. Cablecards are not hard at all to setup assuming they are properly configured cards. All you should need to do is follow Tivo's instructions on installing them and then call Comcast to activate them (if necessary).

3. I've never seen this. Well, other than the brief one second dropouts you get while using the onscreen guide every now and then. It doesn't matter much to me since it isn't reflected in the recording. It's just the guide interfering with live audio processing. A few people have reported more serious problems with missing audio from big chunks of recorded programs, but this is rare and is the fault of the cable companies in many cases.

4. You knew this before you bought it.

5. It does not randomly reboot. I have noticed though, if you reboot it while your cable is out or some other problem is preventing it from getting channel info, it can go into a reboot loop. That's not really random though and it only happens if you reboot it (or if the Tivo reboots itself as part of an update cycle) to start the loop.

6. See #4.

7. 32 hours of HD is a fair amount. I challenge you to find any cable company DVR's which have more. Plus, the Tivo is upgradable (internally through kits and eventually externally via eSATA) whereas the cableco DVR's are not.

8. In theory is the key phrase. They've been talking about this for almost a year now and it still looks to be at least 6 months off, more likely about a year. They haven't shown anything of substance yet. Also, it is pretty clear that prices for DVR rentals from cable companies are being increased as we speak and in the near future so I wouldn't count on seeing the same low price for DVR rental at the end of 2007 when the Comcast Tivos come out.


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## jbowden (Dec 12, 2006)

I have been vocal about the issues that I have with my S3. With the exception of a couple of issues that supposly are being addressed in the next release, I would highly recommend the S3 given its capabilities. Go ahead, talk to the hand and then place your order. I believe you will be satisfied!


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

garys said:


> I got in under the lifetime-transfer wire, ordering my Series 3 on 12/31/06. I'm eligible to transfer my lifetime subscription from my S2 to the new S3.
> 
> However, after ordering I started reading these forums, and it seems that few people are able to even get the S3 working reliably. My S3 will arrive shortly, and I'm not sure whether to open the box or simply return it to Amazon for a refund.


Gary  I went through the same exercise and finally decided to order an S3, which I did on Saturday, 12-30-06. That way, I qualified for TiVos offer to transfer the lifetime subscription on my old S1 box to a new S3 for $200.

I had put off buying because of the not insignificant number of complaints concerning the reliability of both the S3 and CableCARD technology and implementation. I have made up my mind that getting my S3 configured is going to be a significant exercise. Nevertheless, Im glad I made the move because there is simply nothing like TiVos software.

One important factor in my decision to buy an S3 was that here in OKC the owners of both the local ABC station and local Fox station insist that Cox OKC pay then a fee for carrying ABCs and Foxs HD programming. The net effect of this disagreement is that Cox can no longer carry either network's HD programming and it looks like the dispute will not be resolved very soon. Thus, despite having one of Cox's HD DVR's, I am now unable to make HD recordings of such shows as 24, Lost, and Greys Anatomy. The S3 will solve all of that because its built in OTA HD tuners will allow me to once again record those shows in HD.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> If you think the S3 HDD is too small, wait till you get the Comcast DVR. If you are getting the Moto boxes, you don't even have any option to increase the storage.


ya but he doesnt have to pay a dime up front for the moto box.

as for the s3, you get 30 days to return it dont you? Id highly suggest sending that amazon one back and going to costco. Costco has the best return policy out there. I return my tv every year for a newer model.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

davecramer74 said:


> ya but he doesnt have to pay a dime up front for the moto box.
> 
> as for the s3, you get 30 days to return it dont you? Id highly suggest sending that amazon one back and going to costco. Costco has the best return policy out there. I return my tv every year for a newer model.


Yeah, and you sure do get what you pay for!

By the way, I appreciate your abuse of that policy. When it is canceled, it'll be people like you that caused it.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

GoHokies! said:


> By the way, I appreciate your abuse of that policy. When it is canceled, it'll be people like you that caused it.


Agreed, I hate when people abuse a good policy like that. They eventually are going to stop it because of this and then those of us that don't abuse it will suffer.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

garys said:


> 3. The Series 3 suffers from audio dropout.
> 5. The Series 3 can randomly reboot at times.
> 7. The Series 3 storage space is too small for HD programming, but upgrades are expensive, violate the (very short anyhow) warranty, raise the possibility of having to get the cable cards working again (see #1), and, as far as external storage, require permission from a third party (see #4).


I can't speak to CableCards or Comcast but I've never had any of the above problems.

My TiVo maybe froze once in 3 months. And I record a lot of TV, everything possible in HD and I don't have space issues.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

davecramer74 said:


> ya but he doesnt have to pay a dime up front for the moto box.
> 
> as for the s3, you get 30 days to return it dont you? Id highly suggest sending that amazon one back and going to costco. Costco has the best return policy out there. I return my tv every year for a newer model.


Hate to inform you of this but that's stealing. You can justify it in your mind any way you want but doing something like this makes you a crook. In addition as others have pointed out *YOU PERSONALLY* cause the price of goods to go up for the rest of us.

Hope you feel real good about yourself now.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

hookbill said:


> Hate to inform you of this but that's stealing.


No it's not.

Returning something within the allowed period is perfectly legal. Stealing is not. Therefore it can't be stealing.

I'm not saying it's a good thing or moral, but it's not the same as the illegal action known as "stealing"...


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Amnesia said:


> No it's not.
> 
> Returning something within the allowed period is perfectly legal. Stealing is not. Therefore it can't be stealing.
> 
> I'm not saying it's a good thing or moral, but it's not the same as the illegal action known as "stealing"...


Returning a perfectly good television for one that is brand new when there is nothing wrong with your current tv is stealing. I don't care what the damn warranty says, that's just words on a paper.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

hookbill said:


> I don't care what the damn warranty says, that's just words on a paper.


What about the law? Is that just words on paper, too?

The law says it's legal. Stealing is illegal. Therefore it's not stealing.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Amnesia said:


> What about the law? Is that just words on paper, too?
> 
> The law says it's legal. Stealing is illegal. Therefore it's not stealing.


Easy boys, I didn't want to start this debate, I just wanted to point out the guy was being a selfish bastard....

Just because there isn't a law against it doesn't make it right...


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

GoHokies! said:


> Just because there isn't a law against it doesn't make it right...


I completely agree. Not right. Not moral. But also not illegal. Not stealing.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Amnesia said:


> What about the law? Is that just words on paper, too?
> 
> The law says it's legal. Stealing is illegal. Therefore it's not stealing.


State and federal laws do not require Costco to have a return policy that they have. Costco policy is designed for honest people - not for thiefs. Some people abuse this policy and steal money from them, just like shoplifters do. I bet that a thief who posted here did not write on a return slip that reason for a return was his desire to get a new TV for free. Wherefore, he used a lie to steal merchandise from Costco. Plain and simple. Theft is a theft regardless what tools are used to accomplish it.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Amnesia said:


> I completely agree. Not right. Not moral. But also not illegal. Not stealing.


According to the law, yes.

Is it getting something that you didn't pay for? That's a bit more of a grey area...


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

samo said:


> Wherefore, he used a lie to steal merchandise from Costco. Plain and simple. Theft is a theft regardless what tools are used to accomplish it.


No, no, no.

You said "he used a lie to steal merchandise from Costco". Perhaps he used a lie, fine. But you haven't provided any reason to call it "stealing". Stealing is a crime. Do you agree? And a crime hasn't been committed. Do you agree? So what makes it "theft" besides your personal opinion?


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

hehe you whackos. Oh knows, i returned my tv for a bigger and better one for the same price i paid a year earlier. ya i stole from costco. My picture flickered. By definition from them, thats reason to return it. Regardless if it is my cable box, the wiring, whatever, per them, my picture flickering is a good enough reason to return it. its not stealing, its not breaking the law, its taking advantage of a GREAT return policy. Dont like it? tough shat, i dont care what your opinion on it is. the 10's of thousands of dollars ive spent there, i assure you, costco could give a shat either.

back on topic, with that great return policy, i suggested he get the s3 from there. if you'd like to disagree with that, then great. otherwise quit hijacking threads.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Amnesia said:


> No, no, no.
> 
> You said "he used a lie to steal merchandise from Costco". Perhaps he used a lie, fine. But you haven't provided any reason to call it "stealing". Stealing is a crime. Do you agree? And a crime hasn't been committed. Do you agree? So what makes it "theft" besides your personal opinion?


It is "theft by deception" as defined in criminal law.
" In criminal law, fraud is the crime or offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them  usually, to obtain property or services from him or her unjustly. In the criminal law of common law jurisdictions it may be called "theft by deception," "larceny by trick," "larceny by fraud and deception" or something similar."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

Last time I returned something to Costco they didn't even ask for a reason. If they had asked and I lied then that would be dishonest. But if I said my reason was I didn't like it anymore and wanted a new one that would be perfectly honest.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

davecramer74 said:


> . ya i stole from costco.
> back on topic, with that great return policy, i suggested he get the s3 from there. if you'd like to disagree with that, then great. otherwise quit hijacking threads.


So you admit you steal. And in doing so your harming the great policy that you want to advice someone to get.

Theft by deception. Clear as a bell.

But he is right, Costco does have a great policy. I do agree it's a great place to purchase an S3.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

hiker said:


> Last time I returned something to Costco they didn't even ask for a reason. If they had asked and I lied then that would be dishonest. But if I said my reason was I didn't like it anymore and wanted a new one that would be perfectly honest.


True, but you don't do it every year to take advantage of their policy. davecreamer74 does.


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## Jerry Keller (Jan 27, 2001)

My T3 has worked perfectly from the very start. Go for IT!


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

Upgrades are pretty easy to do yourself if you're comfortable inside a PC. See the upgrade forum.

Samsung 500G SATA drives at newegg.com are just $150 or so, shipped. That doubles your capacity.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6548193-1.html


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

davecramer74 said:


> hehe you whackos. Oh knows, i returned my tv for a bigger and better one for the same price i paid a year earlier. ya i stole from costco. My picture flickered. By definition from them, thats reason to return it. Regardless if it is my cable box, the wiring, whatever, per them, my picture flickering is a good enough reason to return it. its not stealing, its not breaking the law, its taking advantage of a GREAT return policy. Dont like it? tough shat, i dont care what your opinion on it is. the 10's of thousands of dollars ive spent there, i assure you, costco could give a shat either.
> 
> back on topic, with that great return policy, i suggested he get the s3 from there. if you'd like to disagree with that, then great. otherwise quit hijacking threads.


Do you honestly think that if everyone used that policy then it would still exist?

No, you're getting that new TV on the backs of us honest folk that feel that we shouldn't pull schemes like that. If you didn't want this to be discussed, then you should have left it out of your post. You didn't, so now you're going to have to deal with being called a thief.

It may not fit the legal definition of stealing, but is sure isn't right. I hope you're proud of yourself.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I'll be a devil's advocate and argue the opposing viewpoint. Part of the attraction of CostCo to people is very lenient return policies. The fact that he can return the TV after a period of time may be the sole reason he shops there. It could be that CostCo still makes a profit off him (not even including factors below) because he is a loyal customer. I find it unlikely that very many people have the motivation or time to constantly research and return old stuff for new stuff.

Furthermore, some or all of the incurred cost may be at the TV manufacturer itself. There is some truth to the idea that they are over-engineering products to the point that the model that's on the shelves at costco is probably already out of date. I feel less sympathy for TV manufacturers because of this. Each year they deprecate last year's model and slowly make it harder and harder to get parts and service for your "outdated" television. They are also slowly reducing the warranty periods on all their TVs. Last I checked, Samsung was one of a few mainstream TV brands that still offers a 1 year warranty.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

For those abusing the Costco return policy, you'd better watch out. It may catch up to you.

Many retailers have banded togeter to create customer blacklists. Those who abuse return policies are being identified and barred from making returns. Store return policies are frequently adding language that exempts blacklisted people from their generous return options.

I don't know if Costco has joined this alliance, but its something to think about. It might be time to start being more careful with how often you return things.


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## Michael Gwynn (Aug 7, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> I completely agree. Not right. Not moral. But also not illegal. Not stealing.


see the wikipedia entry for the term 'unjust enrichment'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unjust_enrichment

his actions add to the price of goods that the rest of us pay


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Can we get back on topic and peer-pressure OP into buyng the S3 and trying it out? 

If I could afford it, and MRV/TTG were guaranteed, I'd own a second one right now!


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Michael Gwynn said:


> his actions add to the price of goods that the rest of us pay


So do senior citizens using senior discounts. Are they stealing too?


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Michael Gwynn said:


> see the wikipedia entry for the term 'unjust enrichment'
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unjust_enrichment
> 
> his actions add to the price of goods that the rest of us pay


Perhaps the only thing I loathe on the interent more than hearing about people abusing return policies - which will eventually screw the rest of us, is when someone cites to wikipedia.

Just dreadful. I do not view it as a legitimate source of information or fact. Regardless of whether it is right or wrong in any given instance.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

i paid 1499 for a 37" lcd. 7 months later, i see that their 42" model is the same price i paid for the smaller one. Is it wrong of me to bring my tv back and say im not satisfied, i want a bigger one for the same price? Sorry, i dropped 1500 bones and im gonna get my 1500 bucks worth. there is nothing you can say or do that would make me change my mind, sorry, lol. if im sticking it to you guys, well tough friggin luck, hehe. As stated, costco has a wellknown return policy. for me not to use it, im robbing myself. Get off your moral high horses. ive spent more money there than i care to think about. I have ZERO issues with returning anything if they go and drop a price that much. whether you guys agree with it or not really isnt relevant. I honestly could care less what your thoughts are on the subject. i shelled out the cash, i had the receipt, ill return it if it means im getting my moneys worth.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

davecramer74 said:


> i paid 1499 for a 37" lcd. 7 months later, i see that their 42" model is the same price i paid for the smaller one. Is it wrong of me to bring my tv back and say im not satisfied, i want a bigger one for the same price? Sorry, i dropped 1500 bones and im gonna get my 1500 bucks worth. there is nothing you can say or do that would make me change my mind, sorry, lol. if im sticking it to you guys, well tough friggin luck, hehe. As stated, costco has a wellknown return policy. for me not to use it, im robbing myself. Get off your moral high horses. ive spent more money there than i care to think about. I have ZERO issues with returning anything if they go and drop a price that much. whether you guys agree with it or not really isnt relevant. I honestly could care less what your thoughts are on the subject. i shelled out the cash, i had the receipt, ill return it if it means im getting my moneys worth.


If you aren't defensive about it than stop trying to justify the behavior and move on.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Amnesia said:


> So do senior citizens using senior discounts. Are they stealing too?


Sorry Amnesia: This answer is my first entry in "worst responses" for 2007.

Your a bright person, you could have done better then that.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

Amnesia said:


> No, no, no.
> 
> You said "he used a lie to steal merchandise from Costco". Perhaps he used a lie, fine. But you haven't provided any reason to call it "stealing". Stealing is a crime. Do you agree? And a crime hasn't been committed. Do you agree? So what makes it "theft" besides your personal opinion?


Actually this is really gray. You could make a case that it is fraud, which is illegal. Just like Insurance fraud, this person would be lying to get something. In insurance fraud it is money, in this case it is a new TV.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

Mike Farrington said:


> For those abusing the Costco return policy, you'd better watch out. It may catch up to you.
> 
> Many retailers have banded togeter to create customer blacklists. Those who abuse return policies are being identified and barred from making returns. Store return policies are frequently adding language that exempts blacklisted people from their generous return options.
> 
> I don't know if Costco has joined this alliance, but its something to think about. It might be time to start being more careful with how often you return things.


Actually I heard somwhere (not sure where) that costco had started tracking returns to see if people were abusing it. I think the article said they would stop allowing people to return things if there was a pattern of abuse. But it didn't say when they would implement this polivy or anything like that.


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## garys (Feb 2, 2002)

Thanks. I think I'm fairly well convinced to give it a shot. Seems like the reported problems are largely overblown and in any event, if I get a box that has problems, Amazon seems to allow returns within 30 days, even with an open box. I'm not convinced that its worth it financially to move the lifetime service (well, not sure I'm not going to keep the S2 anyhow), but thats a whole other question.

On the issue of returning items to Costco, it is legally theft if done with the intent to defraud. Costco permits you to try an item and if you are not satisfied, to return it. If you purchase an item intending to use it and then return it (i.e. return it regardless of whether you are satisfied with it, having utilized it for a period of time), you have committed the crime of theft (at least in California). Here is the code section (Ca.Penal Code 484(a)): "Every person who shall ... by any false or
fraudulent representation or pretense, defraud any other person of
money, labor or real or personal property ... is guilty of theft." The false representation that you intend to keep the product unless you become dissatisfied with it, when in fact you intend to return it regardless of your satisfaction, seems to qualify as a crime under this statute. 

Of course, unless you do it over and over (such as by returning a TV annually and getting a new one), as a practical matter the criminal intent would be impossible to prove. Unless you admit it on a public forum such as this one. Its one of those weird crimes where it is a crime if you intend to defraud, but how do you prove one's subjective intent?


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

http://www.tivo.com/vip



> If you return the box within 30 days of placing the order on the website, you will receive a full refund on any paid transfer fee and hardware cost. The shipping charge for the return is at your expense. Returns outside of 30 days will not be accepted. If the transfer is cancelled within the first 30 days, the Product Lifetime Service will remain on your old DVR.


You have 30 days to cancel the LT transfer and it would revert ack to your S2.

As far as the Costco return policy, that's up to Costco. I would guess it might not be long before they reclassify HDTVs under the computer return policy (6 months).


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

davecramer74 said:


> i paid 1499 for a 37" lcd. 7 months later, i see that their 42" model is the same price i paid for the smaller one. Is it wrong of me to bring my tv back and say im not satisfied, i want a bigger one for the same price? Sorry, i dropped 1500 bones and im gonna get my 1500 bucks worth. there is nothing you can say or do that would make me change my mind, sorry, lol. if im sticking it to you guys, well tough friggin luck, hehe. As stated, costco has a wellknown return policy. for me not to use it, im robbing myself. Get off your moral high horses. ive spent more money there than i care to think about. I have ZERO issues with returning anything if they go and drop a price that much. whether you guys agree with it or not really isnt relevant. I honestly could care less what your thoughts are on the subject. i shelled out the cash, i had the receipt, ill return it if it means im getting my moneys worth.


I'm in precisely the same situation and won't be returning mine. I'm STILL recommending the TV I bought to others, especially at the current price of 1300+tax shipped versus 2300+tax (on 2100) shipped that I paid, because it is an even more incredible deal now!

I'm not robbing myself by not returning it for just an 'extended price match', I'm merely avoiding behaving like a (pick-your-least-palatable-4-letter-word). IMnsHO


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

hookbill said:


> Sorry Amnesia: This answer is my first entry in "worst responses" for 2007.


Why is a bad response? Because you don't have an answer?

The situation is very similar---people using resources for less than market value thus driving up the cost of those resources for others. Isn't that your assertion for how the electronics-returners are "stealing"?


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

I'm with Amnesia. Just because it's a difficult topic to discuss doesn't make it a BAD topic. There are valid issues there! While it IS off-topic here, it's an interesting analogy  Let's leave it at that!


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## Mikala (Oct 5, 2004)

davecramer74 said:


> i paid 1499 for a 37" lcd. 7 months later, i see that their 42" model is the same price i paid for the smaller one. Is it wrong of me to bring my tv back and say im not satisfied, i want a bigger one for the same price? Sorry, i dropped 1500 bones and im gonna get my 1500 bucks worth. there is nothing you can say or do that would make me change my mind, sorry, lol. if im sticking it to you guys, well tough friggin luck, hehe. As stated, costco has a wellknown return policy. for me not to use it, im robbing myself. Get off your moral high horses. ive spent more money there than i care to think about. I have ZERO issues with returning anything if they go and drop a price that much. whether you guys agree with it or not really isnt relevant. I honestly could care less what your thoughts are on the subject. i shelled out the cash, i had the receipt, ill return it if it means im getting my moneys worth.


And just how many TV's do you think you're entitled to for your 1500 _bones_ ? 1? 2? 7? When will you stop? I agree you have the right to abuse the policy. I can return scratched up TV's to Costco with some lie about how it _flickers_ - every year until the policy goes away...doesn't make it right. I agree it's your _right_ , but that doesn't make it *right.*


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Amnesia said:


> Why is a bad response? Because you don't have an answer?
> 
> The situation is very similar---people using resources for less than market value thus driving up the cost of those resources for others. Isn't that your assertion for how the electronics-returners are "stealing"?


Don't mix theft with discounts. If you get senior citizen discount using fake ID - you are stealing. If you are senior citizen, then you are using merchant's discount.
If your TV broke or within few days or weeks you found out that you don't like it and you are returning it - you are using Costco return policy. If there is nothing wrong with your TV, but you are returning because price went down - you are stealing from Costco or manufacturer. Costco has satisfaction guaranty policy- they don't have a price protection or price match policy. If you are using deception to use product satisfaction policy to obtain price protection, you are committing a crime defined by law as "theft by deception". Same as if you are using a fake ID to obtain senior citizen discount.


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## Hystyk28 (Sep 11, 2005)

i was a manager at costco.

1. having membership cards allow the store to keep a tight control on habitual returns.

2. they have since tightened their electronics return policy due to people abusing the spirit of the policy. But hey, if it is in place use. It just will be around for long or it will be changed accordingly.

its not just electronics that people do it with. How about before x-mas, when the moms would come and buy a rug cleaner or dining set that was to be returned right after the family gathering? oh, did I mention they would bring back have eaten veggie platters and, yep, seafood. People have no shame.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Gregor said:


> There's tons of FUD threads started by Chicken Littles out there.
> 
> The S3 is well worth the bucks, and I am very pleased how well it works.


I'm a little late to answer, but that won't stop me... 

Ditto. The S3 is an awesome box. Amazon has a 30 day return policy if you find that you disagree (highly doubtful ) or if the install goes haywire (also not likely).

I say go for it. You won't be sorry.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> For those abusing the Costco return policy, you'd better watch out. It may catch up to you.
> 
> Many retailers have banded togeter to create customer blacklists. Those who abuse return policies are being identified and barred from making returns. Store return policies are frequently adding language that exempts blacklisted people from their generous return options.
> 
> I don't know if Costco has joined this alliance, but its something to think about. It might be time to start being more careful with how often you return things.


I'm interested in how the stores decide what is considered abuse, and what is within the "spirit" of their return policy. Additionally, how do the stores identify an "abuser"? Do they share a consumers credit card information with other retailers? If you have any answers or links, a PM would be appreciated. I don't want to hijack this thread anymore than it already has been.


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## randywalters (Oct 21, 2003)

IzzyB68 said:


> Actually I heard somwhere (not sure where) that costco had started tracking returns to see if people were abusing it. I think the article said they would stop allowing people to return things if there was a pattern of abuse. But it didn't say when they would implement this polivy or anything like that.


My co-worker's wife (they're both hardcore Costco customers) has a friend who abused the Costco return policy (she returns clothes a LOT among other things) and she was finally flagged as being an abuser and now the manager has to get involved for her to return anything, and the reason for return now has to be a valid one. My co-worker and his wife were_ very_ glad to see the brakes were finally put on her abuse! But this won't stop a guy from returning a 2-year old TV the first time so the abuse will still continue.

There are other stories of people's Costco account being flagged as "returns abusers" and i understand other retailers are doing it too. Bout time.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

I think once identified they shouldn't be allowed to return anything, period.

Either that or tell them to shop elsewhere.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I'm interested in how the stores decide what is considered abuse, and what is within the "spirit" of their return policy. Additionally, how do the stores identify an "abuser"? Do they share a consumers credit card information with other retailers? If you have any answers or links, a PM would be appreciated. I don't want to hijack this thread anymore than it already has been.


The OP has his answer and is hopefully getting a smooth cable card install now so....
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05349/622918.stm

the yahoo who is returning the TV each year simply because the prices drop and he can get a BETTER TV than when he bought initially is indeed committing return fraud and that idea that abuse of a return policy is ok cause the stores have not put in a process to weed out the abusers from the HONEST folk is costing everyone plenty..

"Stores are trying to target customers who abuse the longstanding practice of legitimately returning goods. Retailers estimate return fraud costs them $16 billion a year. Their goal in identifying specific goods in return policies is to concentrate on the areas where they suffer most from fraud"

and from that link here is how retailers are starting to band together so they can track return fraud across different companies

"Some stores subscribe to a database called Verify-1, which was created by The Return Exchange, a closely held company whose clients include Sports Authority Inc. and the Express division of Limited Brands Inc. When a customer returns merchandise to any store that uses Verify-1, the cashier swipes the shopper's driver's license, which keeps an inventory of any return the shopper has made.

Figuring out exactly what triggers the system is tough, because The Return Exchange is tight-lipped about its criteria for rejection, saying only that it detects fraud through "rules and statistical models." But if a shopper crosses the database's line, the return is denied. Customers who are turned down may request, via email, a report from The Return Exchange with their return activity history."


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Also an article specifically on Costco return policy on HDTV from July 2006

http://www.mp3.com/stories/5352.html


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

Hystyk28 said:


> i was a manager at costco.
> 
> 1. having membership cards allow the store to keep a tight control on habitual returns.
> 
> ...


My husband was once behind a lady that was returning year old books that were torn and very "used". She had all the receipts and they let her return them!! People amaze me.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> The OP has his answer and is hopefully getting a smooth cable card install now so....
> http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05349/622918.stm


OK, so since this post has already been hijacked, you from Pittsburgh?


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

ive returned 1 tv. ive been a member for like 10 years. Id hardly say im going to be flagged as a "habitual" return guy. Even if i returned my tv again this year, you think they are going to flag me? No, they arent. Considering ive bought a laptop, dvd player, ipod nano, xbox360 and spend about 4-500 a month there on groceries, they dont give a **** if i return a tv or not. Ill also add, this doesnt impact costco at all, they just ship these back to manufacturers who in turn sell them again as refurb. All of you in here saying costco is going to change their policy, smoke another bowl then pass it to me. It has no impact to them, zero, none, nada. if anything, their sales now show i bought 2 tv's from them, not 1 when they goto show their earnings report. Please do continue to cry about me returning my tv though. this is quite entertaining listening to all the do-gooders in here, lol.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

davecramer74 said:


> ive returned 1 tv. ive been a member for like 10 years. Id hardly say im going to be flagged as a "habitual" return guy.


Get your story straight. You initially said "I return my tv every year for a newer model." What is it - you return it every year, or you've done it once?



davecramer74 said:


> Ill also add, this doesnt impact costco at all, they just ship these back to manufacturers who in turn sell them again as refurb.


That's assuming the TV you return just because you can is worth fixing up and selling/using as a refurb.



davecramer74 said:


> It has no impact to them, zero, none, nada. if anything, their sales now show i bought 2 tv's from them, not 1 when they goto show their earnings report.


Your grasp of finance appears to be as good as your grasp of ethics and the law on fraud.



davecramer74 said:


> Please do continue to cry about me returning my tv though. this is quite entertaining listening to all the do-gooders in here, lol.


Go away loser.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

davecramer74 said:


> ive returned 1 tv. ive been a member for like 10 years. Id hardly say im going to be flagged as a "habitual" return guy. Even if i returned my tv again this year, you think they are going to flag me? No, they arent. Considering ive bought a laptop, dvd player, ipod nano, xbox360 and spend about 4-500 a month there on groceries, they dont give a **** if i return a tv or not. Ill also add, this doesnt impact costco at all, they just ship these back to manufacturers who in turn sell them again as refurb. All of you in here saying costco is going to change their policy, smoke another bowl then pass it to me. It has no impact to them, zero, none, nada. if anything, their sales now show i bought 2 tv's from them, not 1 when they goto show their earnings report. Please do continue to cry about me returning my tv though. this is quite entertaining listening to all the do-gooders in here, lol.


Obviously you are already smoking something, because you feel that abusing a policy in a way that it was not designed for is OK (or worse something to be Proud of.)

First of all, I don't consider returning an item just becuase it is "old" to Costco fraud. That fact is that their policy allows that. However, the morality of this action is a different case. Costco provides a valuable service, but, like any good thing, is abused by a small portion of the population. Due to this abuse, it is VERY LIKELY Costco will be forced to change their policy. This will adversely affect the 95% of their customer that don't abuse. This will also affect their sales, as the unlimited Satisfaction is a reason many people choose to buy from Costco.

Second, I don't know where you took an accounting class, but to say Costco's bottom line is BETTER for you returning a TV is Enron accounting. The Fact is that Costco has now made less money (assuming your new TV was cheaper than your old one.) (Original Sale - Return + New Sale) < Original Sale. Also, Costco (and/or the manufacturer) now has to absorb all the excess costs for the original TV (Shipping, Display, Credit Cost, Overhead, Return Shipping costs, etc.)

Finally the Manufacturer is the one that gets screwed. From what I have heard (and I have NO first hand knowledge of this), if a Manufacturer wants to sell an item at Costco, they must accepts all returns. The Manufacturer now has to accept a return for an item they probably no longer make/sell. They can try and sell it as a refurb (for much less than the original price and probably less than cost) or use it as a warranty replacemnt (no selling price.) So the manufacturer is forced to eat a significant cost just because something better comes along and you are no longer happy.

So if you want to continue to believe what you are doing is OK or even Right, then please keep smoking what you are smoking. In the end it is people like you that will ruin it for the rest of us.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

hookbill said:


> I think once identified they shouldn't be allowed to return anything, period.
> 
> Either that or tell them to shop elsewhere.


They should still be allowed some returns -- if they bought something that turned out to be defective, they should be allowed to exchange it. But, under more restricted policies -- require all packaging and receipt, and within a more restrictive time period (i.e. 30 days)

In my mind, that should be the standard requirements for most returns anyway. I used to work retail, and was amazed at how many people would throw out the box right away -- before even plugging the damned thing in and making sure it turned on!

I make sure I hold onto my packaging at least until I'm sure I'm gonna keep the thing.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> That's assuming the TV you return just because you can is worth fixing up and selling/using as a refurb.
> 
> Your grasp of finance appears to be as good as your grasp of ethics and the law on fraud.


I don't really agree with either point above. CostCo does not incur much cost for the refund. Mostly just manpower. The TV manufacturer almost always incurs the cost. So he may be ripping off a company, but it probably isn't CostCo. I am pretty sure they get a full refund from the TV maker.

Secondly, if the TV isn't worth fixing up and refurbing that just further proves my point about TVs that get outdated within a few months of you buying them because TV makers are constantly coming out with new models every single year in order to devalue the old TVs and make retailers buy the new ones and sell the old ones at a greatly reduced profit.

Unless he bangs it up and scratches it a lot, of course.

Regardless, assuming he's not fibbing, like I guessed, he is a regular costco customer and most likely more than makes up for any costs in his frequent purchases. Caveat venditor. There's a reason Best Buy doesn't accept returns on certain products anymore, like cameras and GPS devices.


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## Timber (Apr 28, 2002)

Ah the sweet smell of justification. 

-=Tim=-


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## Hystyk28 (Sep 11, 2005)

RBlount said:


> Finally the Manufacturer is the one that gets screwed. From what I have heard (and I have NO first hand knowledge of this), if a Manufacturer wants to sell an item at Costco, they must accepts all returns.


not completely true, costco eats alot of the electronics...they sell them at a substantial loss to refurbers.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Can we just agree there is a reasonableness associated with returning a product to Coscto or anywhere else and return to the legitimate topic?


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

TAsunder said:


> CostCo does not incur much cost for the refund. Mostly just manpower. The TV manufacturer almost always incurs the cost.


I really don't care who eats the cost. The idea that this guy somehow "deserves" the newest model every year since he paid $1500 for his original TV is a joke. Thus, I'll repeat myself (not to you TAsunder, but to the other guy): go aware loser.


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## PPC1 (Sep 16, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> Perhaps the only thing I loathe on the interent more than hearing about people abusing return policies - which will eventually screw the rest of us, is when someone cites to wikipedia.
> 
> Just dreadful. I do not view it as a legitimate source of information or fact. Regardless of whether it is right or wrong in any given instance.


How about this, then:

(A) A person who:

(2) knowingly or intentionally makes a false or misleading written statement with intent to obtain property, employment, or an educational opportunity; [or]

(6) with intent to defraud, misrepresents the identity of the person or another person or the identity or quality of property;

commits deception, a Class A misdemeanor.

Indiana Code § 35-43-5-3. http://www.state.in.us/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar43/ch5.html

If he is honest, or even just silent about the reason for the return, he is fine under the language of this statute. If he lies, or misleads, even if by omission of fact necessary to make his other statements not misleading, it is a crime.

Give me 5-10 minutes, and I can probably find a similar statute in most other states, too.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

It appears davecreamer74 just moved his fingers a little faster then he used his mind. He returns 1 TV he says after first saying he does this every year. I have a tendency to believe that he "embelished" his first post to make the OP think Costco is such a great place, which it is.

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. And hopefully he doesn't have that type of mind set.

If he's not telling the truth now hoever, my original post stands.

CtLesq, so what if we got off the point of the topic a bit. Happens all the time around here. No big deal. The OP got the info he wanted and then chirped in himself about what he thinks about taking advantages of warranties. 

Anyway, somewhere around here I got the impression you might be an attorney and since when have you guys ever wanted to stay on track.  

I'll apologize for the attorney joke at this time.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> I really don't care who eats the cost. The idea that this guy somehow "deserves" the newest model every year since he paid $1500 for his original TV is a joke. Thus, I'll repeat myself (not to you TAsunder, but to the other guy): go aware loser.


I don't agree with the idea either, but I do find it annoying the way TV manufacturers are increasingly hostile towards their customers in the ways I mentioned. So I would feel better if he were ripping them off than if he were ripping costco off.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> Perhaps the only thing I loathe on the interent more than hearing about people abusing return policies - which will eventually screw the rest of us, is when someone cites to wikipedia.
> 
> Just dreadful. I do not view it as a legitimate source of information or fact. Regardless of whether it is right or wrong in any given instance.


The purpose of this post is to express my dismay at those who trash Wikipedia as a resource just because they dont like what it says. Wikipedia is a resource so, like other resources, it has its strengths and weaknesses. Its strength is that its self correcting because anybody who finds an error can correct that error and place that correction where anybody who reads the original article can easily find it. Wikipedias weakness is that one of its authors may post misinformation but the same thing happens in peer reviewed journals.

If somebody wants to point out the specifics of how a particular Wikipedia article is wrong Ill listen and likely be convinced but throwing a tantrum and complaining that nothing in Wikipedia can possibly be worthwhile and is beneath contempt is, to put it gently, unconvincing. We have a duty to evaluate the likely reliability of any resource, but no right to knock it out of hand.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> Secondly, if the TV isn't worth fixing up and refurbing that just further proves my point about TVs that get outdated within a few months of you buying them because TV makers are constantly coming out with new models every single year in order to devalue the old TVs and make retailers buy the new ones and sell the old ones at a greatly reduced profit.


Do you think TV vendors should stop innovating? Or just come out with new models every year? That puts them at a competitive disadvantage with companies that came out with newer models later in the year.

Even if a new model comes out, chances are the model that was purchased last week, month, year, whatever is still fully functional and still does everything that it did when it was purchased.

New product envy is not an excuse for screwing over companies.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

gwsat said:


> The purpose of this post is to express my dismay at those who trash Wikipedia as a resource just because they dont like what it says. Wikipedia is a resource so, like other resources, it has its strengths and weaknesses. Its strength is that its self correcting because anybody who finds an error can correct that error and place that correction where anybody who reads the original article can easily find it. Wikipedias weakness is that one of its authors may post misinformation but the same thing happens in peer reviewed journals.
> 
> If somebody wants to point out the specifics of how a particular Wikipedia article is wrong Ill listen and likely be convinced but throwing a tantrum and complaining that nothing in Wikipedia can possibly be worthwhile and is beneath contempt is, to put it gently, unconvincing. We have a duty to evaluate the likely reliability of any resource, but no right to knock it out of hand.


Wikpedia is a resource which can be changed by people such as either of us. As such it has virtually no value based sheerly alone on that fact.

To cite to it as definitive [and by citing to it, you imply it as definitive] is an afront to anyone who understands the value of citing to a legitimate source. It is not.

As for referring to my loathing of Wikipedia as a legitimate source of information as a tantrum you clearly are a master of hyperbole.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> Wikpedia is a resource which can be changed by people such as either of us. As such it has virtually no value based sheerly alone on that fact.
> 
> To cite to it as definitive [and by citing to it, you imply it as definitive] is an afront to anyone who understands the value of citing to a legitimate source. It is not.
> 
> As for referring to my loathing of Wikipedia as a legitimate source of information as a tantrum you clearly are a master of hyperbole.


I practiced law for nearly 50 years, so, not to put too fine a point on it, I have done a lot of research, both computer aided and otherwise. Wikipedia is a shining example of the egalitarian nature of the Internet. Academics tend to hate it for the same reason that media people tend to hate blogs: it threatens their monopoly. That to one side, though, let's leave at this: "It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness."

My use of the word tantrum may have overstated the case. My apologies if it did.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

RBlount said:


> Do you think TV vendors should stop innovating? Or just come out with new models every year? That puts them at a competitive disadvantage with companies that came out with newer models later in the year.
> 
> Even if a new model comes out, chances are the model that was purchased last week, month, year, whatever is still fully functional and still does everything that it did when it was purchased.
> 
> New product envy is not an excuse for screwing over companies.


It's not innovation we are talking about. I purchased "last year's model" TV at a big discount. The store also had "this year's model" and there was no noticeable difference. It's the incremental models that I find to be shady. It's not like one was 1080p and the other wasn't. It was identical in nearly every way. It would be like EA Games putting out Madden every year but with the same roster and stats from the year before.

I don't have a problem if the model actually changed in some major way. But why put out a new model and cause the retailer to take a hit every year? I think that may be one factor that causes inflation of TV prices. The alternative is even worse for the retailer - charge more than a competitor for the model and don't get the new model. That's a double whammy negative from the customer's perspective.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

gwsat said:


> I practiced law for nearly 50 years, so, not to put too fine a point on it, I have done a lot of research, both computer aided and otherwise. Wikipedia is a shining example of the egalitarian nature of the Internet.


But that has nothing to do with wether it is or is not accurate. I can rely on Lexis to be accurate because it is a legitimate source. Wikipedia is not.



gwsat said:


> Academics tend to hate it for the same reason that media people tend to hate blogs: it threatens their monopoly.


I am neither. What I am is of the opinion that you can find any source to justify anything you want on the internet. And then people cite to those sources as being definitive. If I wanted I could post factually incorrect information on Wikipedia. Wether they catch it an hour, a day, a week or whenever isn't the point. The issue is that it cannot be trusted as reliable.



gwsat said:


> That to one side, though, let's leave at this: "It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness."


As Regan said, trust but verify. And that is the problem - I can't trust something I can't verifying because people mistakenly believe Wikipedia is correct in and of itself.

And my point is very well illustrated in your quote - by using Wikipedia you claim to be lighting up a room - but you may be doing so with factually incorrect information. I won't be dumbed down by a source I know can be wrong. And I am not going to have someone get away with using that source without being critical of it.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

gwsat said:


> I practiced law for nearly 50 years, so, not to put too fine a point on it, I have done a lot of research, both computer aided and otherwise. Wikipedia is a shining example of the egalitarian nature of the Internet. Academics tend to hate it for the same reason that media people tend to hate blogs: it threatens their monopoly. That to one side, though, let's leave at this: "It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness."
> 
> My use of the word tantrum may have overstated the case. My apologies if it did.


This is great. Probably two attorneys, having a discussion (I did say argument but changed that) on line now about how beneficial Wikipedia is. And one of them was upset because we got off topic! Great job, councelors.

I personally think that Wikipedia is THE source for info and totally agree with gwsat as it is a great example of how the internet can be used. But alas I have no law degree. I do watch just about every law show on television however. 

Hey are the attorney females really as hot as they are on television?


----------



## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

hookbill said:


> This is great. Probably two attorneys, having a discussion (I did say argument but changed that) on line now about how beneficial Wikipedia is. And one of them was upset because we got off topic! Great job, councelors.


Its only off topic when I say it is off topic. And this is off topic on another topic.



hookbill said:


> I personally think that Wikipedia is THE source for info and totally agree with gwsat as it is a great example of how the internet can be used. But alas I have no law degree. I do watch just about every law show on television however.


And that is why you need to hire an attorney.



hookbill said:


> Hey are the attorney females really as hot as they are on television?


Women in PR are much, much, much better. But as an aside, life, in that area, probably could not be better.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

CTLesq said:


> And that is why you need to hire an attorney.


How the heck can I possible hire an attorney when I just bought an S3 two months ago? Not everyone makes 300.00 an hour.

What the heck was this thread about? Oh yeah, get the S3. It's great and it's just a bit more expensive then hiring an attorney. But a heck of a lot more fun.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

TAsunder said:


> It's not innovation we are talking about. I purchased "last year's model" TV at a big discount. The store also had "this year's model" and there was no noticeable difference. It's the incremental models that I find to be shady. It's not like one was 1080p and the other wasn't. It was identical in nearly every way. It would be like EA Games putting out Madden every year but with the same roster and stats from the year before.
> 
> I don't have a problem if the model actually changed in some major way. But why put out a new model and cause the retailer to take a hit every year? I think that may be one factor that causes inflation of TV prices. The alternative is even worse for the retailer - charge more than a competitor for the model and don't get the new model. That's a double whammy negative from the customer's perspective.


This happens with more than just TVs. I was looking for a paper shredder because I now work from home and need one. I was looking around and found the "sale" shelf that one of the office stores had. I found a shredder half off because it was the older model. We looked at the newer model and there was no functionality differences. The new model had a slightly smaller basket and had a few different colors on it. I saved $25 so I was happy


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> As Regan [sic] said, trust but verify. And that is the problem - I can't trust something I can't verifying [sic] because people mistakenly believe Wikipedia is correct in and of itself.
> 
> And my point is very well illustrated in your quote - by using Wikipedia you claim to be lighting up a room - but you may be doing so with factually incorrect information. I won't be dumbed down by a source I know can be wrong. And I am not going to have someone get away with using that source without being critical of it.


Alas, language is often an imperfect medium to convey meaning, because I think we agree here, at least in part.

An unsourced Wikipedia article isn't worth anything. Unless sources that I can check for myself are included, we can agree that there's nothing worthwhile there. The same is true of written opinions, though. Whether an opinion is convincing turns on the clarity of the writing, the reasoning, the authorities cited in support, and the judge who wrote it. But a well written opinion with apt citations of authority is convincing, as should be a well written and well sourced Wikipedia article. Its a jungle out there, so we shouldnt turn our backs on any useful resource simply because some of its contents are better than others. Ronald Reagan was right. Trust but verify, indeed.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

hookbill said:


> How the heck can I possible hire an attorney when I just bought an S3 two months ago? Not everyone makes 300.00 an hour.
> 
> What the heck was this thread about? Oh yeah, get the S3. It's great and it's just a bit more expensive then hiring an attorney. But a heck of a lot more fun.


Actually, Hookbill this thread is an opportunity for you to tell anyone that despite any possible defects with the S3 because it is so vastly superior to your 8300 that we should all be happy. 



hookbill said:


> An unsourced Wikipedia article isn't worth anything. Unless sources that I can check for myself are included, we can agree that there's nothing worthwhile there.


But that is way too much work. And then you have to prove a negative. It is easier just to avoid the whole thing and cite to something else. We agree more than we disagree.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I'm probably one of the biggest S3 detractors here, but I'd like to address your concerns a little.



garys said:


> 1. Comcast (I'm in Fresno, CA, so I have Comcast) will do whatever it can to prevent the Tivo S3 from working with the cable cards, thereby preserving its DVR rental revenue. So the cable company acts as hostile toward Tivo functionality as possible.


From what I have read cable companies aren't reluctant to set up the S3 becuase of fears of lost revenue, it's more about a reluctance in training installers on non cable co equipment and cable cards in general.



garys said:


> 2. Cable cards have inherently complex setup procedures that require full-on cooperation from Comcast, something I'm unlikely to see given #1 above.


Unfortunately cable card problems can be difficult, but they can also be easy. I'd let the cable co in your area try to do the install before giving up on it.



garys said:


> 3. The Series 3 suffers from audio dropout.


This is true, but from what I have read it's an isolated group experiencing these issues and if you have them the unit is easily returned for a refund or replacement.



garys said:


> 4. The Tivo to Go and, more importantly, multi-room viewing, features are not currently implemented and require permission and approval from a consortium representing the interests of content providers and cable companies in order to implement. I'm just plain assuming that permission will never come.


You are right to make that assumption. Buying a product based on promised features is never a good thing. However TiVo hasn't changed any of the advertising I've seen to indicate it doesn't and won't provide these. I think they are hopeful that these features will come to pass. I wouldn't expect them soon however.



garys said:


> 5. The Series 3 can randomly reboot at times.


This seems to be related to the show being recorded and the cable co being used. This will only get better over time, but if you want to exercise your lifetime transfer you don't have the luxury of waiting.



garys said:


> 6. The Series 3 will never be capable of on-demand (although downloaded content, while not available instantly, on-demand, seems likely).


True. Like you said TiVo appears to be working on their own flavor of on demand. I don't particularly feel the need for on demand since the TiVo provides me with more than enough to watch. If I liked sporting events however I could see the need for an on-demand solution.



garys said:


> 7. The Series 3 storage space is too small for HD programming, but upgrades are expensive, violate the (very short anyhow) warranty, raise the possibility of having to get the cable cards working again (see #1), and, as far as external storage, require permission from a third party (see #4).


Storage space is easily addressed if you have a little computer knowledge and while it will void the warranty I haven't heard of anyone that upgraded being denied anything on a warranty claim. For me I keep the old drives in a safe place in case I need to replace the upgraded drive for warranty calls.



garys said:


> 8. In theory, existing (and rentable!) Comcast DVRs will be able to run Tivo's software for an additional fee in the next year or so.


It's likely going to be a cut down version of TiVo and the drive space will be fixed. (no upgrades available) It will also likely not be TiVo hardware being used so all those nice features that TiVo will get as time goes by won't be available as well. I expect the same thing that happened between DirecTV and TiVo to happen here with the cable co foregoing upgrades to reduce support costs.

Ultimately I wouldn't let the forum dissuade you from keeping the unit if you really want it. Yes it has issues and these will almost certainly be addressed in the future, in the meantime with your lifetime service you won't be paying monthly for an HD box from the cable co.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

hookbill said:


> How the heck can I possible hire an attorney when I just bought an S3 two months ago? Not everyone makes 300.00 an hour.
> 
> What the heck was this thread about? Oh yeah, get the S3. It's great and it's just a bit more expensive then hiring an attorney. But a heck of a lot more fun.


Back on topic, what a novel but useful idea! I ordered my S3, despite knowing all the baggage getting it configured would involve. My primary reasons for doing so were to once again benefit from TiVos world class software and to have a way to have a program guide and hardware combination that would allow me to find, view, and record Fox and ABC HD programming OTA, which Cox OKC cant carry because of disputes with the owners of the local OKC Fox and ABC stations.

Another reason I decided to voluntarily subject myself to that messiness, though, was that I thought it would be a useful exercise to keep my now retired mind sharp. Based on what I have read in this Forum, it will take everything I have before everything is done. Excelsior! Every day, in every way, I am growing better and better!


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> It's likely going to be a cut down version of TiVo and the drive space will be fixed. (no upgrades available) It will also likely not be TiVo hardware being used so all those nice features that TiVo will get as time goes by won't be available as well. I expect the same thing that happened between DirecTV and TiVo to happen here with the cable co foregoing upgrades to reduce support costs.


I agree. Its likely to be many months before TiVo software starts showing up on cable company owned Motorola boxes, despite TiVos contract with both Comcast and Cox. Those of us who are now using Scientific Atlanta boxes will have to wait even longer than that because, at last report, TiVo had not yet started writing a version of its software for SA DVRs. That sealed the deal for me, along with the opportunity to transfer my S1s lifetime subscription to a new S3 for $199.


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## arlingtonian (Dec 14, 2006)

I understand the original poster's laments and worries. I went through similar feelings. Being a (somewhat) early adopter is usually not for the mildly risk averse among us. That said, I took the plunge and while only having my system running for a couple days; I am SO PLEASED!

Here's Why:

While so very expensive, and knowing that the S3 will drop precipitously in price at some point leads to natural pause; it would have to drop a ton to offset the gains by getting in on the lifetime transfer deal, and to wait until price drops a lot deprives you of enjoying the best HDDVR available today.

Just as some cars roll of an assembly line as lemons, I imagine some S3's are bad from the start. Kudos for TiVo for seemingly being willing to replace them liberally.
When they work, however, they are just as advertised.

I have two S2's and I have noticed that the tuners on the S3 in addition to the HD programming do a better job on SD as well. Losing the cable box speeds up channel changing making surfing a more enjoyable excercise.

Cable Cards and their installation is not a difficult process (as far as the S3 is concerned.) Load 'em up, read some data, call it in to the office--Voila! The issues arise with the cards themselves or their installers. If the head end is cooperative, troubleshooting and rehitting your cards if ever necessary should be simple and user friendly.

I trust that as with the S2s TiVo will roll out more upgrades and features over time. As I understand it, the box is capable of doing anything an S2 can do--authorization to enable additional features is what's lacking.

As for OnDemand, I agree it's a loss. However, I notice that for me, I watch it to catch shows I didn't get a season pass for because the conflicted with another show I enjoy. With the two tuners, I am gonna have to work to make that a problem.  The others times I used OnDemand were when I couldn't find anything else in the TV universe to watch. That may still happen, but perhaps I'll turn off the tube and read a book.

Anyway, I too was skittish; but I took the plunge and have no buyer's remorse. Each hour with the device makes me realize what I was missing with the whole HD thing.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

davecramer74 said:


> ...
> Costco has the best return policy out there. I return my tv every year for a newer model.


Dave, I think I know you.

Aren't you the guy that speeds up on yellow lights so you can enter the intersection just as the light turns red?

And aren't you the guy who has borrowed a handicapped tag so you can park in the handicap zone?

And aren't you the guy who brags about how you hide cash income and exaggerate deductions on your tax return?

And aren't you the guy who doesn't declare using the car for work and understates the miles driven so you get lower insurance rates?

And aren't you the guy who turned the odometer back on the car you sold to my neighbor?

And aren't you the guy who used to cheat on tests in school?

Yeah, I'm certain I know you; in fact, we all know you (but wish we didn't).


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> Dave, I think I know you.
> 
> Aren't you the guy that speeds up on yellow lights so you can enter the intersection just as the light turns red?
> 
> ...


actually, never done any of that. But i know you, i see you all the time on forums adding nothing worthwhile to conversations on forums. Thanks for another worthless post. We have all lost iq points from reading another one of your posts. Carry on...


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

CTLesq said:


> Originally Posted by hookbill
> An unsourced Wikipedia article isn't worth anything. Unless sources that I can check for myself are included, we can agree that there's nothing worthwhile there.


Excuse me counselor, but I did not make that quote. Kindly be more careful with your cutting and pasting or have your secretary do it for you.


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

To the OP about some comments regarding no OnDemand. Comcast should provide you with a free STB for use on your primary TV along with the S3. I have it and do occasionally use it for OnDemand. See the second to last answer in the Comcast FAQ here.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

hookbill said:


> Excuse me counselor, but I did not make that quote. Kindly be more careful with your cutting and pasting or have your secretary do it for you.


I just fired her.


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## Jerry Keller (Jan 27, 2001)

You guys should take it outside.


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## Matt (Mar 13, 2002)

I did buy the Series 3 in December and transferred the lifetime from my Series 1 under the special. 

After using it for a few weeks, however, the 2.5 seconds channel delay was too much for the family. My Series 1 only has a 0.5 sec channel delay. Plus we are just using Analog cable although we may be going HD this year. I already have 300 hours on my series 1 so there really wasn't much reason to keep it. I've also had the chance to checkout some PC based DVR's that are incredible - and much cheaper.

So I've returned it and am having the lifetime transferred back to my series 1. But if you want a DVR to record HD off of cable (which I don't), then the series 3 is the best solution.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Jerry Keller said:


> You guys should take it outside.


We are renting a room later. Hookbill will execute his 8300 ala Saddam and then make beautiful love to his S3.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

CTLesq said:


> We are renting a room later. Hookbill will execute his 8300 ala Saddam and then make beautiful love to his S3.


Oh man. That's just sick. True, I did drage the SA 8300 back to TW tied with a rope to my bumper, and yes, I did back up over it a couple of times but make love to my S3? I never go beyond the evening hug. 

And rent a hotel room with an attorney? I'd rather eat bugs.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Matt said:


> I did buy the Series 3 in December and transferred the lifetime from my Series 1 under the special.
> 
> After using it for a few weeks, however, the 2.5 seconds channel delay was too much for the family. My Series 1 only has a 0.5 sec channel delay. Plus we are just using Analog cable although we may be going HD this year. I already have 300 hours on my series 1 so there really wasn't much reason to keep it. I've also had the chance to checkout some PC based DVR's that are incredible - and much cheaper.
> 
> So I've returned it and am having the lifetime transferred back to my series 1. But if you want a DVR to record HD off of cable (which I don't), then the series 3 is the best solution.


Umm, if you didn't plan on recording HD, WHY on Earth did you buy it in the first place?  And OTA HD is free, while Basic Cable also includes some HD channels. Did you give yourself a chance to appreciate the HD display (assuming you own an HDTV?)

As for the 2.5 seconds ... wow. I'm OF this current generation, and even I'm appalled at this desire for instant gratification.

I'm also strongly opinionated, but everyone already knows that


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Anytime I've ever made a move to improve my electronics life (as it were) I've ALWAYS had to go through some process of debugging and getting all the settings right. In 99% of those cases the answer to my problem was right there in the manual or I was able to find the answers here on this forum (or other forums). 

Forums are wonderful places to solve problems but they also are a collection plate for people too lazy to deal with proper setup or too dumb to read the manual. I have certainly been guilty of both from time to time. 

In a nutshell, the series 3 is the best HD DVR out there currently. I have never missed a single recording since I got the Cable Cards setup properly and any "problems" I've had with the S3 I was able to solve with the help of the fine folks here. It's fast, the PQ is absolutely stunning, and it's reliable with a huge hard drive. It's TiVo. Anything else is just a bad copy. I am thrilled with my purchase and that I'm finally part of the HD revolution. TiVo is the best way to do it. Period. Show me another box that's better and I'll buy it.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

I can't believe that I missed this trainwreck today 

I'm on a day trip for work, and now everyone is in the Jacksonville airport (I love free airport WiFi) thinks I'm weird for sitting here laughing.

Hey Dave, so now not only are you a cheat (and arguably a theif) you're a liar, too!! Go you!!!

I think that if you don't like wikipedia you should try to make it better (unless you're a well paid New York lawyer, then you should just complain about it).

There, now I think that I offended everyone but hookbill, but I can't bring myself to say anything bad about his S3 (or mine!).

(Craig, is this off topic or on?)


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ashu said:


> ...As for the 2.5 seconds ... wow. I'm OF this current generation, and even I'm appalled at this desire for instant gratification.


+ me...

I can't believe the number of folks complaining about that. A couple of seconds in the realm of what's really important in life is nothing.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

Originally Posted by CTLesq
Originally Posted by hookbill
"An unsourced Wikipedia article isn't worth anything. Unless sources that I can check for myself are included, we can agree that there's nothing worthwhile there."


hookbill said:


> Excuse me counselor, but I did not make that quote. Kindly be more careful with your cutting and pasting or have your secretary do it for you.


Its quite right that you didnt say that, I did. But why should you complain? After all, I was eminently correct. 

Edited to correcct typo.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> I can't believe the number of folks complaining about that [the S3's 2.5 second delay in changing channels]. A couple of seconds in the realm of what's really important in life is nothing.


I dont know. A delay of two-and-a-half seconds between a button push and getting another channel sounds like a potential mess to me, especially when you are channel surfing. I hope it doesnt drive me nuts. One of the (few) good things about the SA 8300HD DVR is that channel changes are lightning fast. I hope that I have not become spoiled.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

gwsat said:


> I dont know. A delay of two-and-a-half seconds between a button push and getting another channel sounds like a potential mess to me, especially when you are channel surfing. I hope it doesnt drive me nuts. One of the (few) good things about the SA 8300HD DVR is that channel changes are lightning fast. I hope that I have not become spoiled.


Channel surf with a Tivo? Why? If anything I search through the guide to find something, but mostly I watch no live TV, if I wanted to watch it I would record it.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I guess I'm "lucky" that I come from a cable STB / DirecTV with Tivo experience that has made me forget what it was even like to have instant channel changes.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

gwsat said:


> I dont know. A delay of two-and-a-half seconds between a button push and getting another channel sounds like a potential mess to me, especially when you are channel surfing. I hope it doesnt drive me nuts. One of the (few) good things about the SA 8300HD DVR is that channel changes are lightning fast. I hope that I have not become spoiled.


Spoiled by the 8300? Spoiled? You have got to be kidding me. That pos can't wipe the S3's USB connector.

You will have a slight adjustment period, but when you see overall how much better it is the the SA 8300 you'll wonder how you got along without TiVo for so long.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> + me...
> 
> I can't believe the number of folks complaining about that. A couple of seconds in the realm of what's really important in life is nothing.


If you are a channel surfer, the delay *does* detract from the experience of using an S3. I use the Live Guide, so the delay isn't a problem for me.

With all due respect, who are we to say that what irritates one person isn't a non-issue for someone else? Live and let live.

There are many things in life that are more important than a TiVo. We all know that. But...

I don't think it's appropriate to point out that fact in a forum dedicated to TiVo talk. We all have come here to talk TiVo, and just because one person doesn't agree with another doesn't give them the right to say "Hey, there are more important things in life."


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> I guess I'm "lucky" that I come from a cable STB / DirecTV with Tivo experience that has made me forget what it was even like to have instant channel changes.


Yep, same here. Makes a difference. You already know the good stuff.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

IzzyB68 said:


> Channel surf with a Tivo? Why? If anything I search through the guide to find something, but mostly I watch no live TV, if I wanted to watch it I would record it.


Yes, thats a real good point. I hardly ever channel surf and watch almost all recordings except the news and football/sports.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

gwsat said:


> I dont know. A delay of two-and-a-half seconds between a button push and getting another channel sounds like a potential mess to me, especially when you are channel surfing. I hope it doesnt drive me nuts. One of the (few) good things about the SA 8300HD DVR is that channel changes are lightning fast. I hope that I have not become spoiled.


I came from an 8300HD, and it cant hold a candle to the S3. If the delay bothers you, try using the Live Guide for channel selection. I have a feeling that you may just give up on channel surfing once you get a week of S3 use under your belt


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## TostitoBandito (Sep 18, 2006)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I came from an 8300HD, and it cant hold a candle to the S3. If the delay bothers you, try using the Live Guide for channel selection. I have a feeling that you may just give up on channel surfing once you get a week of S3 use under your belt


Yeah, the only time I use the channel up/down button is in the guide, in menus, or when I accidentally hit it.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I came from an 8300HD, and it cant hold a candle to the S3. If the delay bothers you, try using the Live Guide for channel selection. I have a feeling that you may just give up on channel surfing once you get a week of S3 use under your belt


My friend is the exception to this generalization. At least twice a week I talk to him about a show that he watched only parts of, had to go and didn't get to finish, etc. Has zero (or few) season passes even to shows he likes a lot. He won't even think to pause a show while on the phone or going to the bathroom. He's had a directv series 2 dvr with tivo for at least 2 years, maybe 3. And he's a bit of a technophile too. I can't explain it. It's absolutely hilarious.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I came from an 8300HD, and it cant hold a candle to the S3. If the delay bothers you, try using the Live Guide for channel selection. I have a feeling that you may just give up on channel surfing once you get a week of S3 use under your belt


I certainly agree that an 8300HD cant hold a candle to a TiVo. Indeed, thats why I have ordered an S3. There isnt much that the 8300HD does well, but quick channel changing is one.

Is the S3 a lot slower at changing channels than the S1? I dont recall my old S1 being especially slow but I havent used it for several years.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

gwsat said:


> I certainly agree that an 8300HD cant hold a candle to a TiVo. Indeed, thats why I have ordered an S3. There isnt much that the 8300HD does well, but quick channel changing is one.
> 
> Is the S3 a lot slower at changing channels than the S1? I dont recall my old S1 being especially slow but I havent used it for several years.


I did not have the S1, however I have had the S2, a DirecTiVo with HD (I don't recall the numbers) and I have had the 8300HD.

I think the S3 is better than the S2 and the 8300 and about equal to slightly less than the speed of the DirecTiVo.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

gwsat said:


> I certainly agree that an 8300HD cant hold a candle to a TiVo. Indeed, thats why I have ordered an S3. There isnt much that the 8300HD does well, but quick channel changing is one.
> 
> Is the S3 a lot slower at changing channels than the S1? I dont recall my old S1 being especially slow but I havent used it for several years.


I just tested one of my S3s, and it clocked in between 1 and 2 seconds per channel change. I don't remember the 8300HD as being much faster. I haven't returned it yet, so I may have to hook it up, and have a contest


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## LargoFloridaBHN (Jan 3, 2007)

I wrote my first post very late last night in another thread, and it tended toward a rant just because I was feeling very frustrated with my new S3. I guess I'm a perfectionist and my previous TiVo experiences gave me some mighty high expectations.

That being said, I find many things I like about my S3. The cable card install went very smoothly. I love having so many digital and premium channels available for searching and using with the WishList(tm). No other DVR that I am aware of has two cable tuners and a full 14 days of program guide -- plus easy access to all the extra TiVo metadata ("Info"). I'm finding programs and channels I never knew existed!

And with support for the classic "select-play-select-3-0-select" feature, it is sheer pleasure to skip through my HD recordings 30 seconds at a time.

Although I won't be retiring my TiVo Series2 or my Scientific Atlanta 8300HD anytime soon, I'm really glad I bought a Series3.

By the way, I also bought a 4 year warrantee!


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## Monty2_2001 (Aug 6, 2005)

Several things that make the S3 seem worth it to me, so I just ordered one. A big one is that I don't have a phone setup at my new place, and don't plan on it. The Directivo HR10 I have bugs me all the time to call. At least with the new one, can use ethernet! Yay, that's $20 a month savings, since I only had the phone for it at the old place.

Also, with TWC, I can get a much better deal than Directv since I have cable modem with them too. The combined package is great. I also should get some 'incentives' from switching (I hope some free or reduced premium chans). Plus, I'm getting SICK of the HR10's fuzziness with Svideo on my 56" DLP.


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## jautor (Jul 1, 2001)

Monty2_2001 said:


> Plus, I'm getting SICK of the HR10's fuzziness with Svideo on my 56" DLP.


I hope that's a typo... Why on earth would you be using S-video on the HR10 with a DLP set?

In case you really are - well, that explains the fuzzy... you're not seeing HD. S-video is incapable of HDTV resolutions, only 480i. Move to either component or HDMI.

Jeff


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

LargoFloridaBHN said:


> Although I won't be retiring my TiVo Series2 or my Scientific Atlanta 8300HD anytime soon, I'm really glad I bought a Series3.


I have a second 8300HD that I use in conjunction with my kitchen-breakfast room TV. I will be keeping it. Actually, the 8300HD is much better suited for use as a secondary HD DVR than it is for use as a primary box.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

ashu said:


> Umm, if you didn't plan on recording HD, WHY on Earth did you buy it in the first place?


I'm not the person you were posing the question to, but I bought a S3 for the *future* intention of recording HD.. (and/or possibly recording OTA and/or free-on-cable digital stations --- but on a standard TV for quite a while until I get an HDTV..)

...because of the lifetime transfer option. Yes, it really is that much of an incentive to many of us.


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## Monty2_2001 (Aug 6, 2005)

jautor said:


> I hope that's a typo... Why on earth would you be using S-video on the HR10 with a DLP set?
> 
> In case you really are - well, that explains the fuzzy... you're not seeing HD. S-video is incapable of HDTV resolutions, only 480i. Move to either component or HDMI.
> 
> Jeff


Yeah, it is a typo. It's not the HR10, it's their SD Directivo R10.


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

I've had mine for about 3 weeks and I am thrilled to have it. People don't usually post when something works well. They only post when they are having problems with it so they can get help from others. Go for it, you won't be sorry.


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## danitaz (Oct 15, 2005)

garys said:


> 1. Comcast (I'm in Fresno, CA, so I have Comcast) will do whatever it can to prevent the Tivo S3 from working with the cable cards, thereby preserving its DVR rental revenue. So the cable company acts as hostile toward Tivo functionality as possible.
> 2. Cable cards have inherently complex setup procedures that require full-on cooperation from Comcast, something I'm unlikely to see given #1 above.


I can't address all of Gary's concerns, because I just got my TiVo setup with the cable cards yesterday/today. I've been using it OTA for about a week, and I haven't noticed any major complaints. No reboots, and thus far no audio dropout. I'll see if those are more related to cable cards I guess.

As for 1. and 2. above, I can say that Comcast in the Denver suburbs was very good. While I didn't have things working properly by the time the tech left last night, I did have a tech get everything working for me over the phone this a.m. Last night all we were getting was unscrambled channels through the cards, and the operator at the office said that we were like 250 in the queue for hits, and the cable guy had to leave. He said that if things weren't working by morning I should phone the office and someone there would either help me over the phone or set up a service call if it wouldn't work! Within about 15 minutes over the phone we got both cable cards working, and I'm set to go.

I would say that Comcast was very accommodating here in the Denver area and did everything EXCEPT make the cable guy stay here for 3 hours trying to wait for an activation hit. While the cable installer didn't have the proper cards with him when he arrived (15 minutes early I might add) , the CO is about 10 miles from here, and he ran back and got them. Then he said that our signal was really bad and needed a house amp, but that he didn't have one on the truck and would setup another call for someone to come back. However, we weren't getting any signal to the cable cards so he called the CO and someone brought out the necessary equipment for the amplification. He knew to only set up one card at a time, but I think he got overanxious because he was running very late by then, and put the second card in after he saw that we could get the local HD channels, and didn't wait for the premium channels because the guy at the office said it might take 3 hours to clear the hit backlog! He was here about 3-1/2 hours, and had to leave, and I'm the patient type, so I didn't fuss too much about that. This morning I popped the second card out, a new tech and I got the first card working over the phone, I put the second card back in and boom, it was all perfect 

So, while I'm certain that this could be "a problem" for people who aren't terribly technologically savvy, somehow I think that most people who are on these boards at least are not those people, and with a little patience and deep breathing the install doesn't have to be traumatic <g>.

Danita


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## garys (Feb 2, 2002)

Well, its looking like Comcast Fresno can't get their act together on my cable cards. I've more or less wasted the day trying to get it activated, still no luck.

Just got off the phone with them (3rd time today). They're sending a "hit" to the cards. Again. Somehow, I doubt it will work. Crossing my fingers anyhow.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

garys said:


> Well, its looking like Comcast Fresno can't get their act together on my cable cards. I've more or less wasted the day trying to get it activated, still no luck.
> 
> Just got off the phone with them (3rd time today). They're sending a "hit" to the cards. Again. Somehow, I doubt it will work. Crossing my fingers anyhow.


This could be so many things. Are the cards "married" properly did the person you talk to get the numbers correctly?

I'd really prefer to have a tech come out. It's not so much that you can't do it on your own but sometimes an extra pair of eyes helps.


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## ceb1974 (Jan 6, 2007)

I just received my Series 3 yesterday, and have the CableCARD installs scheduled for next Tuesday. Unfortunately, it reboots randomly during channel changes. 

It rebooted a couple of times yesterday, so I called Tech Support. The tech didn't seem at all surprised, which kinda concerned me, and immediately offered an exchange. He authorized the exchange, but I told him I'd keep playing with it to see if the problem continued. So tonight I fire it back up, and within about 15 minutes, I get a reboot on a channel change, and it reboots 4 times in a row before getting to the THX logo. So I called back and asked for the exchange. This tech didn't seem at all surprised either. I get the distinct impression that this is at least a semi-regular occurrence for them, but I could be wrong. Hopefully the new one gets here by Tuesday.

I know that this stuff happens though, and will keep returning them until I get a good one!  Getting rid of the digital cable box with its horribly slow IR extender coming from my Series 2, and being able to use HDMI rather than S-Video makes it all worth it, not to mention finally being able to TiVo my HD channels.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

ceb1974 said:


> I just received my Series 3 yesterday, and have the CableCARD installs scheduled for next Tuesday. Unfortunately, it reboots randomly during channel changes.
> 
> It rebooted a couple of times yesterday, so I called Tech Support. The tech didn't seem at all surprised, which kinda concerned me, and immediately offered an exchange. He authorized the exchange, but I told him I'd keep playing with it to see if the problem continued. So tonight I fire it back up, and within about 15 minutes, I get a reboot on a channel change, and it reboots 4 times in a row before getting to the THX logo. So I called back and asked for the exchange. This tech didn't seem at all surprised either. I get the distinct impression that this is at least a semi-regular occurrence for them, but I could be wrong. Hopefully the new one gets here by Tuesday.
> 
> I know that this stuff happens though, and will keep returning them until I get a good one!  Getting rid of the digital cable box with its horribly slow IR extender coming from my Series 2, and being able to use HDMI rather than S-Video makes it all worth it, not to mention finally being able to TiVo my HD channels.


Unfortunately this isn't the first report of this so your probably doing the right thing and getting a new one right away. Hopefully your next one will work with no problem. Remember, the majority of us didn't have problems. Good Luck.


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## ctakim (May 7, 2006)

garys said:


> Well, its looking like Comcast Fresno can't get their act together on my cable cards. I've more or less wasted the day trying to get it activated, still no luck.
> 
> Just got off the phone with them (3rd time today). They're sending a "hit" to the cards. Again. Somehow, I doubt it will work. Crossing my fingers anyhow.


Good luck, I could not get my cable cards to work with the S3 and had to return the unit after 28 days. I think it was a cable company/card issue, not a S3 issue.


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## spassmeister (Dec 6, 2006)

If I'd read these boards I'd be scared to buy a series 3 as well....and I'd wait a couple months until some problems were resolved. 

I purchased two series 3s a couple weeks ago (TimeWarner/San Diego) and transfered my lifetime service agreements from the old series 2s. I have mixed reivews. 

The cablecards worked fine upon initial installation (all four of them). But after a couple days problems started on one of the S3s. First I'd get the "searching for signal" message on one of the two receivers (card 1 slot). When I did diagnostics I'd see the same issue on that unit only. After reading these message boards I suspected that perhaps I had a bad cablecard, but, after rebooting with the cable cards removed, reinserting them and rebooting again the problem went away, for a day or two. Then it happend again, except this time I experienced the "endless reboot" problem. 

I removed the two cards and the reboot problem went away. I did notice that the non-HD receivers in the Tivo box exhibited the same problem - one of the receivers had problems locking/demodulating while the other did not (i.e. it looked the same as when the cablecards had been inserted). So I've concluded based on this experience (I've still had no problems with the other Series 3 tivo) and this message board that there is simply a high failure rate with these units.


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## JeffMandell (Mar 14, 2007)

Hi Folks,
I'm new here. I just wandered in looking for news about when Tivo was going to allow SATA drives on the TIVO 3.
But to add one bit of info relevant to the start of this thread, I just set up my T3 yesterday, including two cable cards from TimeWarner cable. So I thought I'd add:
1. The cards were handed over without objection by the cable installer, when we requested them in advance. We were told we could also come by and get them on request. No resistance - just notice we wouldn't get pay per view on the T3, which we already knew from researching this (can always walk into another room to do this).
2. Set-up with the cards took an extra phone call to TW to give T3 box# and cable card #'s, but same call would have been required for any Tivo.
Cable card "installation" consisted of:.....plugging in the cards. Nothing else.
3. That's it. It's now working fine.
4. I should add the first T3 we received had a schizophrenic digital out, so I contacted Amazon and they authorized return, with them paying delivery cost, with no hassle whatsoever. I love Amazon and find it the most relaxing place in the universe to do business. Got another one from them and it's fine (so far). 
So....about that SATA drive? DirecTV just enabled their new boxes. What's the prognosis for TIVO? I called to ask and the woman who answered the phone didn't even know what it was.


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## SystemJinx (Aug 13, 2005)

Just to reiterate what has been said before, most people don't have problems with their Tivos and subsequently don't post problems or look for help on these forums.

My Tivo S3 has worked perfectly since day one.


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

I was planning on buying a S3 before the end of March. Now I am afraid to. I have Cablevision in NYC. And I read on AVS they will introduce switched digital at the end of the year. Why should I buy an S3 now if it will not work in a few monhts?


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## hornblowercat (Mar 4, 2007)

Carlos_E said:


> I was planning on buying a S3 before the end of March. Now I am afraid to. I have Cablevision in NYC. And I read on AVS they will introduce switched digital at the end of the year. Why should I buy an S3 now if it will not work in a few monhts?


What makes you think first that they will actually complete the project by years end and second that your S3 will not work? That is simply not true.

Not every station will be in SDV including HD channels. Not even every digital channel will be on SDV. Analog channels will still be available so whatever is analog now will probably still be there when SDV comes. What you have on HD now will most likely still be available. Now I'm not going to tell you that you might not lose some HD channels, you could but it will probably be the channels that are not watched in high demand.

Also the S3 works OTA as well as with cable. Simply put it's the best DVR out there.

I researched SDV quite a bit before I purchased and fact is it's not likely to be in my area for quite a while, still if and when it comes the S3 will not become a paper weight.


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

hornblowercat said:


> What makes you think first that they will actually complete the project by years end and second that your S3 will not work? That is simply not true.
> 
> Not every station will be in SDV including HD channels. Not even every digital channel will be on SDV. Analog channels will still be available so whatever is analog now will probably still be there when SDV comes. What you have on HD now will most likely still be available. Now I'm not going to tell you that you might not lose some HD channels, you could but it will probably be the channels that are not watched in high demand.
> 
> ...


For me an S3 is a BIG purchase. I had to save up several months for it. So it's a lot of money for me if it will not work properly later on.

I have the Tivo series 2 and love it. And I'm sure I'll love the series 3. I'm using a cablevision DVR which is a piece of crap. TV shows show up on the wrong day in my guide and my DVR misses recording shows. I have to check it every night before I go to bed and reenter programs to record.


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## Corran Horn (Feb 12, 2002)

Comcast absolutely worked with me to get my CC's working. Once I had a guy on the phone who knew what he was doing it worked out great. At *no* point did anybody from Comcast discourage me, or even mention they had an HD DVR offering. The guy who ultimately helped me even called back to follow up.

I don't feel the CC process is that difficult, but you do need somebody on the Comcast end that knows how to properly initialize and then setup your cards properly on their end.

I have experience audio drop outs, at times.

Never had a random reboot.

More space would be nice, but it fits a week's worth of prime-time HD programming for our household, and that's all we need for now. We've never had anything deleted for space reasons.

Read more reviews, look around, and make the best choice for you.

Good luck!


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## Bighouse (Sep 3, 2004)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/la-fi-costco28feb28,1,4035640.story

Yeah, older news story, but very relevant to this hijacked thread.
I guess that Dave guy just ruined it for everyone.

How you feeling now Dave?


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## hornblowercat (Mar 4, 2007)

Carlos_E said:


> For me an S3 is a BIG purchase. I had to save up several months for it. So it's a lot of money for me if it will not work properly later on.
> 
> I have the Tivo series 2 and love it. And I'm sure I'll love the series 3. I'm using a cablevision DVR which is a piece of crap. TV shows show up on the wrong day in my guide and my DVR misses recording shows. I have to check it every night before I go to bed and reenter programs to record.


Hey, it's a big purchase for all of us. I'm an early adapter, it cost me almost a grand.

And I knew about SDV but I bought it anyway for EXACTLY the same reasons you mention about cablevision DVR. And a few others as well. The problem I have with your statement is "it won't work properly later on." SDV is not going to make it "not work properly." It might mean you may not get as many channels but if your like most people you don't look at a majority of the channels you get anyway. In my case the cable channels I watch frequently are all analog so they won't be on SDV.

As I said, when they release SDV on your cable system you may not get everything they offer, but you will more then likely get what you need. And if their DVR is a pos then what good does that do you? I've been very pleased with my S3 and I highly recommend it. Don't be afraid of SDV. (see signature). If you truly can't afford it then by all means don't purchase one. But if you want quality reliable recordings the S3 is the way to go.


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## kas25 (Mar 10, 2003)

SystemJinx said:


> Just to reiterate what has been said before, most people don't have problems with their Tivos and subsequently don't post problems or look for help on these forums.
> 
> My Tivo S3 has worked perfectly since day one.


Me too. Just got it last week and after the bumbling Fios installers figured it out, everything is going well. I'm glad to have Tivo back!!


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Carlos_E, While I personally decided I'd rather have an S3 NOW than tolerate the icky 6412, I absolutely agree that for many people, it is CRITICAL that TiVo announce somethign concrete about their SDV strategy before a purchase this big should be considered (especially in a CableVision/Time Warner neighborhood)

I'm NOT buying a second S3 until I hear something about this issue


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

ashu said:


> Carlos_E, While I personally decided I'd rather have an S3 NOW than tolerate the icky 6412, I absolutely agree that for many people, it is CRITICAL that TiVo announce somethign concrete about their SDV strategy before a purchase this big should be considered (especially in a CableVision/Time Warner neighborhood)
> 
> I'm NOT buying a second S3 until I hear something about this issue


I hope we hear something soon. I just saw the Tivo community store has it for $619 no tax and free shipping. :up:


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

hornblowercat said:


> Hey, it's a big purchase for all of us. I'm an early adapter, it cost me almost a grand.
> 
> And I knew about SDV but I bought it anyway for EXACTLY the same reasons you mention about cablevision DVR. And a few others as well. The problem I have with your statement is "it won't work properly later on." SDV is not going to make it "not work properly." It might mean you may not get as many channels but if your like most people you don't look at a majority of the channels you get anyway. In my case the cable channels I watch frequently are all analog so they won't be on SDV.
> 
> As I said, when they release SDV on your cable system you may not get everything they offer, but you will more then likely get what you need. And if their DVR is a pos then what good does that do you? I've been very pleased with my S3 and I highly recommend it. Don't be afraid of SDV. (see signature). If you truly can't afford it then by all means don't purchase one. But if you want quality reliable recordings the S3 is the way to go.


I have Cablevision in Westchester County, and I have not had any problems (so far) with SDV.

From what I have read, Cablevision is rolling out two more HD channels by March 22nd. They are:

Discovery Channel HD - channel 727
National Geographic Channel HD - channel 726.

So far, none of the HD channels have been broadcast using SDV, so I am hoping that this doesn't change.

There are many channels using SDV on the Cablevision system. Most of them are foreign language channels.

With the exception of one or two channels, all of the channels in my area have digital simulcasts. One of them is the "Old School" scrolling channel guide (channel 15).


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## hornblowercat (Mar 4, 2007)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I have Cablevision in Westchester County, and I have not had any problems (so far) with SDV.
> 
> From what I have read, Cablevision is rolling out two more HD channels by March 22nd. They are:
> 
> ...


Thank you. This is what I have said all along, and far more typical of what SDV is about then the "paranoia" currently sweeping this forum.


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