# Will we see new TiVo hardware at CES 2013?



## hungarianhc (May 31, 2007)

I really hope so... I think TiVo needs to release a unit w/ all of their user friendliness, but with more power + features.


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## uw69 (Jan 25, 2001)

Can always hope, maybe the Mini will make an appearance!


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

2013 should be interesting. Whether we see it at CES or not, I think we'll get a Series 5 lineup in the fall. If it's anything like the hardware going into the Pace/Tivo box, it'll make the Premiere CPU look like a toy.

Wondering if there will be a new remote, since the Slider was just recently discontinued.

And of course there's the Mini.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

My guess is the Mini will be on display if they still plan on a retail release. Any new model will be shown behind closed doors. 

TiVo doesn't tend to announce new models at CES. The Premiere was announced in February/March and shipped a month later. I believe March makes it 3 years so we are definitely due for hardware. I don't know though how much better the broadcom chips have gotten though especially that support flash.


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## JZC (Jul 24, 2007)

In the earnings call last week, the Tivo CEO implied that there are multiple products planned for next year. He didn't specify what they were or when they would be announced/released but I'm hoping for something big.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> If it's anything like the hardware going into the Pace/Tivo box, it'll make the Premiere CPU look like a toy.


What kind of CPU are you talking about?

Though I love MIPS dearly, Broadcom isn't spending money improving its physical implementation to modern specifications, while fast, 1GHz+ ARMs are readily available to drop in.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> ...Wondering if there will be a new remote, since the Slider was just recently discontinued....


I've always disliked it; the rounded bottom was a serious design flaw in my estimation. But I rarely use TiVo remotes since I have Harmony/Logitechs...


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

tivogurl said:


> What kind of CPU are you talking about?
> 
> Though I love MIPS dearly, Broadcom isn't spending money improving its physical implementation to modern specifications, while fast, 1GHz+ ARMs are readily available to drop in.


Well, speculation is the Pace box may use the BCM7435. It would be a good fit. Tivo indicated the possibility of integrating transcoding in future hardware, and this would be the chip to do it with. 7000 dmips of performance compared to the Premiere's chip with 1100. Integrated MoCA, integrated 4-stream transcoding, etc.

There is an older, less powerful brother to this chip with 2-stream transcoding. After releasing the Stream, I'm not sure Tivo would try to put the toothpaste back in the tube by downgrading. But that one's possible too.

They have been putting a lot of R&D into making the software multi-platform, so they're increasingly less married to Broadcom. We'll have to see.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Well, speculation is the Pace box may use the BCM7435. It would be a good fit. Tivo indicated the possibility of integrating transcoding in future hardware, and this would be the chip to do it with. 7000 dmips of performance compared to the Premiere's chip with 1100. Integrated MoCA, integrated 4-stream transcoding, etc.
> 
> There is an older, less powerful brother to this chip with 2-stream transcoding. After releasing the Stream, I'm not sure Tivo would try to put the toothpaste back in the tube by downgrading. But that one's possible too.
> 
> They have been putting a lot of R&D into making the software multi-platform, so they're increasingly less married to Broadcom. We'll have to see.


It wouldn't make sense from a scale standpoint, but it might make sense for the BCM7435 in a XL/Elite model and the less powerful chip in the 2 tuner box.

I could see the 2 tuner box only supporting 2 transcoding streams logical from a support standpoint.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Found what I was looking for. An old Multichannel News article says the Pace box may actually use the weaker version of the chip: the BCM7425 (2 streams, 3000 dmips, MoCA). That's rather realistic, and should still do well for software performance.

http://www.multichannel.com/content/cable-show-2012-pace-tivo-tee-six-tuner-video-gateway


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Well, speculation is the Pace box may use the BCM7435.


Hardware transcoding is nice, but it still has a lousy CPU, which leaves DVR operations much slower than it could be. Like I said, Broadcom isn't going to spend the money to push its MIPs core up to the level of an ARM or Atom.


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## ort (Jan 5, 2004)

My fantasy is that I can replace my 3 TiVos with one Series 5 (with 4 tuners, a big honking HD, built in TiVo Stream and WiFi) and 2 TiVo Minis.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> There is an older, less powerful brother to this chip with 2-stream transcoding. After releasing the Stream, I'm not sure Tivo would try to put the toothpaste back in the tube by downgrading. But that one's possible too.


I disagree. TiVo boxes can only stream 3 programs at a time anyway, so the current TiVo Stream is intended as a whole network solution for multiple TiVos. I could easily see built in transcoding being limited to just 2 streams without much confusion or feeling of regression.

In fact I suspect I/O is going to be a problem with a 6 tuner box no matter what. Right now a single TiVo can have a maximum of 4 streams writing and 4 streams reading at the same time. (4 tuners in, 1 video out + 3 streams via MRS) Having 6 tuners for input and still allowing up to 4 output streams, or maybe more, could run up against the limits of what hard drives are capable of sustaining. They might have to resort to some sort of RAID or perhaps a hybrid system using an SSD as a buffer.

One thing is for sure, if they do come out with a 6 tuner box it's going to cost a pretty penny. I'm betting it costs $600+ plus service.

Dan


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## uw69 (Jan 25, 2001)

ort said:


> My fantasy is that I can replace my 3 TiVos with one Series 5 (with 4 tuners, a big honking HD, built in TiVo Stream and WiFi) and 2 TiVo Minis.


Make that 6 tuners and I'm with you!


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> 2013 should be interesting. Whether we see it at CES or not, I think we'll get a Series 5 lineup in the fall. If it's anything like the hardware going into the Pace/Tivo box, it'll make the Premiere CPU look like a toy.
> 
> Wondering if there will be a new remote, since the Slider was just recently discontinued.
> 
> And of course there's the Mini.


One would think that the way TiVo is unloading Premiere's boxes that something is coming?


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I disagree. TiVo boxes can only stream 3 programs at a time anyway, so the current TiVo Stream is intended as a whole network solution for multiple TiVos. I could easily see built in transcoding being limited to just 2 streams without much confusion or feeling of regression.
> 
> In fact I suspect I/O is going to be a problem with a 6 tuner box no matter what. Right now a single TiVo can have a maximum of 4 streams writing and 4 streams reading at the same time. (4 tuners in, 1 video out + 3 streams via MRS) Having 6 tuners for input and still allowing up to 4 output streams, or maybe more, could run up against the limits of what hard drives are capable of sustaining. They might have to resort to some sort of RAID or perhaps a hybrid system using an SSD as a buffer.
> 
> ...


Maybe that mystery company that TiVo purchase will have something to do with this.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> I disagree. TiVo boxes can only stream 3 programs at a time anyway, so the current TiVo Stream is intended as a whole network solution for multiple TiVos. I could easily see built in transcoding being limited to just 2 streams without much confusion or feeling of regression.
> 
> In fact I suspect I/O is going to be a problem with a 6 tuner box no matter what. Right now a single TiVo can have a maximum of 4 streams writing and 4 streams reading at the same time. (4 tuners in, 1 video out + 3 streams via MRS) Having 6 tuners for input and still allowing up to 4 output streams, or maybe more, could run up against the limits of what hard drives are capable of sustaining. They might have to resort to some sort of RAID or perhaps a hybrid system using an SSD as a buffer.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's true too. If the Pace uses the cheaper chip, it's all the more likely Tivo will follow suit, quite simply. As for pricing of an XL6, man, I couldn't guess yet. I'm surprised to be able to get a 4-tuner box for $210 so soon. Those prices have really come down. $600 is quite possible though.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Johncv said:


> One would think that the way TiVo is unloading Premiere's boxes that something is coming?


I'd be kinda surprised if we saw an earlier release (spring?) as there are certain ducks they need to get in a row (including filing for FCC analog waivers which itself could take 90 days like last time), but I wouldn't complain if it happened.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

Johncv said:


> One would think that the way TiVo is unloading Premiere's boxes that something is coming?


Unloading how? They were selling Premiere 4s for full price for both the box and lifetime during Black Friday. Not exactly evidence of a desire to reduce stock.


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## heberman (Nov 20, 2009)

tivogurl said:


> Unloading how? They were selling Premiere 4s for full price for both the box and lifetime during Black Friday. Not exactly evidence of a desire to reduce stock.


I just got a refurb 2-tuner Premiere (with the OTA antenna input) for $49 on clearance. That's cheap. The non-refurb is only $59.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Those are clearance of the old 45 hour Premiere units. The newer 75 hour units are still $150.

Although I could see them refreshing the standard Premiere hardware again to add MoCa. They seem to have adopted MoCa as their preferred networking technology and the standard Premiere is the only one that doesn't have it built in.

Dan


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I'd be kinda surprised if we saw an earlier release (spring?) as there are certain ducks they need to get in a row (including filing for FCC analog waivers which itself could take 90 days like last time), but I wouldn't complain if it happened.


The waiver would only be needed for a 4-6 tuner model. They could easily do a new 2-tuner model which wouldn't need a waiver.

I could even see them doing something like they did with the Series 1/Series 2. IIRC they didn't even announce the Series 2 they just showed up on shelves. People didn't even know they were different until someone opened one up. It was just assumed they had more storage.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

There's a big announcement coming with respect to their social, personalization, and authoritative source technology. The long overdue successor to TiVo suggestions. It will be part of the Pique social initiative that leaked earlier. 

I agree we will see a successor to the Broadcom hardware in the Premiere lineup. I'm looking forward to better performance associated with a faster CPU. 

Adobe Air for TV 3.0 support is also around the corner along with API launch for web companion and second screen devices.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

tivogurl said:


> Unloading how? They were selling Premiere 4s for full price for both the box and lifetime during Black Friday. Not exactly evidence of a desire to reduce stock.


Receive this today:

http://info.tivo.com/PS!tOuldk5bC9MFBgIAAAAGCgFICgkxMTQ2MDY4OTgKCjIxMDIyOTM3NDYJAG7jvgoJNzQzOTE5NDA5BQ==

The Premiere XL4 799.98 "include one time payment"


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

sbiller said:


> There's a big announcement coming with respect to their social, personalization, and authoritative source technology. The long overdue successor to TiVo suggestions. It will be part of the Pique social initiative that leaked earlier.
> 
> I agree we will see a successor to the Broadcom hardware in the Premiere lineup. I'm looking forward to better performance associated with a faster CPU.
> 
> Adobe Air for TV 3.0 support is also around the corner along with API launch for web companion and second screen devices.


Sam, nice that you join us, do you have any clue to the mystery company the that TiVo purchase?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Johncv said:


> Receive this today:
> 
> http://info.tivo.com/PS!tOuldk5bC9MFBgIAAAAGCgFICgkxMTQ2MDY4OTgKCjIxMDIyOTM3NDYJAG7jvgoJNzQzOTE5NDA5BQ==
> 
> The Premiere XL4 799.98 "include one time payment"


That's been their normal 'deal' for the XL4 for a while now. Way too expensive IMO.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Johncv said:


> Receive this today:
> 
> http://info.tivo.com/PS!tOuldk5bC9MFBgIAAAAGCgFICgkxMTQ2MDY4OTgKCjIxMDIyOTM3NDYJAG7jvgoJNzQzOTE5NDA5BQ==
> 
> The Premiere XL4 799.98 "include one time payment"


"One time payment" - I guess TiVo does use those surveys.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> I've always disliked it; the rounded bottom was a serious design flaw in my estimation. But I rarely use TiVo remotes since I have Harmony/Logitechs...


The rounded bottom is one of the best things about it. It makes it more comfortable in the hand when holding it. I typically use my slide remotes instead of my Harmoy One remotes when using my TiVos.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I disagree. TiVo boxes can only stream 3 programs at a time anyway, so the current TiVo Stream is intended as a whole network solution for multiple TiVos. I could easily see built in transcoding being limited to just 2 streams without much confusion or feeling of regression.
> 
> In fact I suspect I/O is going to be a problem with a 6 tuner box no matter what. Right now a single TiVo can have a maximum of 4 streams writing and 4 streams reading at the same time. (4 tuners in, 1 video out + 3 streams via MRS) Having 6 tuners for input and still allowing up to 4 output streams, or maybe more, could run up against the limits of what hard drives are capable of sustaining. They might have to resort to some sort of RAID or perhaps a hybrid system using an SSD as a buffer.
> 
> ...


The hard drives should not be the limitation. A modern hard drive can handle even more HD streams. The WD AV-GP drives are rated to handle 12 concurrent HD streams.

With the current Elite I thought I got it up to nine streams concurrently with the ninth one being an Amazon HD video downloading. It's been a while though so I could be mistaken.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> In fact I suspect I/O is going to be a problem with a 6 tuner box no matter what. Right now a single TiVo can have a maximum of 4 streams writing and 4 streams reading at the same time. (4 tuners in, 1 video out + 3 streams via MRS) Having 6 tuners for input and still allowing up to 4 output streams, or maybe more, could run up against the limits of what hard drives are capable of sustaining. They might have to resort to some sort of RAID or perhaps a hybrid system using an SSD as a buffer.
> 
> Dan


A few cable systems are already using a 6-tuner WHDVR from Arris (Moxi). That box doesn't seem to have any HDD problems. I think Shaw in Canada has had them for well over a year now.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Johncv said:


> Sam, nice that you join us, do you have any clue to the mystery company the that TiVo purchase?


I'm not Sam, bu TiVo's not talking. I assume it's an acquihire - maybe one of the companies they've previously outsourced Java or mobile app development to. Or maybe another one of these small metrics companies.


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## leiff (Aug 24, 2005)

any hope in s5 supporting u-verse?


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

leiff said:


> any hope in s5 supporting u-verse?


Not until the FCC requires IPTV and Satellite providers to get onboard with CableCARD or its successor...


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## anthonymoody (Apr 29, 2008)

I'm in when a 4+ tuner box ships with Stream built in along with more robust hardware.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

FWIW, TiVo, for quite a while now, doesn't exhibit at CES. They will have a suite somewhere that is by invitation only.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

davezatz said:


> I'm not Sam, bu TiVo's not talking. I assume it's an acquihire - maybe one of the companies they've previously outsourced Java or mobile app development to. Or maybe another one of these small metrics companies.


Agree with Dave. I included the following quote in my latest Seeking Alpha article published yesterday about the acquisition.



> We picked up a small technology company that furthers/accelerates our technology roadmap. Not much more to share other than immaterial to financials.


I think it could be related to their Pique social initiative as well. Pure speculation.

Since Dave is going to CES this year I'm hoping we'll get some first hand reporting on TiVo's upcoming hardware/software.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

stevel said:


> FWIW, TiVo, for quite a while now, doesn't exhibit at CES. They will have a suite somewhere that is by invitation only.


I thought I read that they opened it back up to the public last year?

I haven't been to CES in 4-5 years, but the last time I did they had a public exhibit. It was a little room in a hall up stairs, not a booth on the main floor, but they were showing off a few things to the public.

Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

moedaman said:


> A few cable systems are already using a 6-tuner WHDVR from Arris (Moxi). That box doesn't seem to have any HDD problems. I think Shaw in Canada has had them for well over a year now.


6 tuners only = 7 streams (6 recording, 1 playback) if the box doesn't have network streaming capabilities.

My point was mainly that if they have a 6 tuner box they may have to limit the streaming capabilities of the box like they do now, because of I/O concerns, so expecting it to have a full 4 stream transcoder like the standalone Stream box may not be practical. The more modest 2 stream transcoder built into that Broadcom chip would probably be more reasonable.

The current Premiere can do 9 concurrent HD streams at once. If the best drives can only do 12 streams, as aaronwt suggested, then simply adding 2 tuners gets us to 11. They might be able to add one more network stream, but they might also need that I/O for indexing and other data tasks.

Dan


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

I would really be interested to know if ANY of the new hardware will support OTA broadcasts or if Tivo has decided to abandon that market completely.

The Premiere works fine for now, even using multiples for a whole home solution. But next gen hardware will eventually have feature sets that the current hardware will not support. Much like what has happend to the Series 3 units.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm sure we will see new hardware at the show in 2013. 

Then it won't be out until 2015 and we will all be impatient and exasperated for waiting so long.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jcthorne said:


> I would really be interested to know if ANY of the new hardware will support OTA broadcasts or if Tivo has decided to abandon that market completely.
> 
> The Premiere works fine for now, even using multiples for a whole home solution. But next gen hardware will eventually have feature sets that the current hardware will not support. Much like what has happend to the Series 3 units.


TiVo will likely stay with the Premiere platform for quite some time. They switched to a more hardware agnostic method of coding this time around, so even if they release new hardware anything they develop for that hardware will most likely be backwards compatible with the current Premiere. (ala the S3 and the HD units) Which means for the foreseeable future the 2 tuner Premiere will likely be the only option for OTA users.

I guess it's possible that if they release a 6 tuner unit they might also release a 3 tuner unit that does cable and OTA based on the same hardware, but I wouldn't hold my breath. OTA users are still a very small percentage of the market so I don't think TiVo will go out of their way to support them.

Dan


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## heberman (Nov 20, 2009)

jcthorne said:


> I would really be interested to know if ANY of the new hardware will support OTA broadcasts or if Tivo has decided to abandon that market completely.


The Tivo would be worthless to me without OTA capability. I think Tivo holds broad patents covering the OTA area and that's why there isn't a real competitor. As such, I think Tivo will continue to milk those patented capabilities for as long as possible.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> I thought I read that they opened it back up to the public last year?
> 
> I haven't been to CES in 4-5 years, but the last time I did they had a public exhibit. It was a little room in a hall up stairs, not a booth on the main floor, but they were showing off a few things to the public.
> 
> Dan


At least for 2012 the suite had a little reception area that was open to the public. But there wasn't anything on display; just some TiVo swag (TiVo dolls, playing cards, shot glass).


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Jonathan_S said:


> At least for 2012 the suite had a little reception area that was open to the public. But there wasn't anything on display; just some TiVo swag (TiVo dolls, playing cards, shot glass).


They did have stuff in the back by appointment only IIRC. This is where they showed off the new Netflix and other updates.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

stevel said:


> FWIW, TiVo, for quite a while now, doesn't exhibit at CES. They will have a suite somewhere that is by invitation only.


I haven't been to CES for a few years  (no longer a "qualified member" of the CE industry ), but they've had a suite for ages, always in the same spot. I'd LOVE to go again, if I could.

It used to be always open to the public but wasn't one year when I went. And... it seems like they've been carrying on that tradition. :/


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

cwerdna said:


> I haven't been to CES for a few years  (no longer a "qualified member" of the CE industry ), but they've had a suite for ages, always in the same spot. I'd LOVE to go again, if I could.
> 
> It used to be always open to the public but wasn't one year when I went. And... it seems like they've been carrying on that tradition. :/


What good is it to hold the *Consumer* Electronic Show if the "Consumer" is NOT allow in?


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Johncv said:


> What good is it to hold the *Consumer* Electronic Show if the "Consumer" is NOT allow in?


I wasn't there last year but I remember TiVo's Tom Rogers taking a CNBC anchor on a tour of the booth. I think there may have been a Bloomberg interview as well. I expect something similar this year.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Back when they had two CES a year they were open to the public, weren't they? I remember going to CES in Chicago in the mid 90s.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

It's a show about consumer electronics, not for consumers. It's for the trade and press. But nowadays there is a time set aside for the public to see the show floor. Most of the show, though, you need some sort of industry "credentials" to get admittance.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

stevel said:


> But nowadays there is a time set aside for the public to see the show floor.


There is? Can you point me to something about it?

For a few years, they had some "CEA Tech Enthusiast" membership, and one of the benefits was that you got to go in for part of the show. But when I looked into it, it was crap. They only let you in for a limited time.

From http://www.twice.com/news/cea-tech-enthusiast-pricing-unveiled-0, it says they only let you in on the last day of the show (and I think it wasn't even for the full day... you had to go in a few hours after opening).  The last day is the worst day to go. The show's dead as many people have left and many companies are packing up the last few hours.

Then, they killed it (http://www.cepro.com/article/cea_ends_tech_enthusiast_membership_for_consumers/).  This last article says for two days, but I recall that again, it wasn't for the entire duration of the two days... just part of each. Lame!

I'd asked long ago if I, as an alumnus, could attend (normally) even though I was no longer a "qualified member" of the CE industry and the answer was no.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

To be honest I have never attended myself. But I recall reading that the 2012 show had introduced such a thing. However, I'm unable to find any confirmation of this so, my apologies for the misinformation. Perhaps it had been proposed but never implemented.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

You can make up a fake company and go if you want. Just print a fake business card on your computer before you go. That's all they ask for as "proof" that you're in the industry. 

Dan


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> You can make up a fake company and go if you want. Just print a fake business card on your computer before you go. That's all they ask for as "proof" that you're in the industry.
> 
> Dan


What do that charge? I mean if need to do present a "fake" business card, gee terrorist could walk in.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

They don't charge anything as long as you register in advance. At this point I think it's past the deadline so it would cost $100.

Dan


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> You can make up a fake company and go if you want. Just print a fake business card on your computer before you go. That's all they ask for as "proof" that you're in the industry.


Yeah, I've contemplated that before, but at the same time, I figure I might need to buy a domain and email service associated with it as well, to make it more authentic (than say a @gmail.com or @comcast.net address).

I'd also be worried that they'd reject me and I'd be out a whole bunch of time and $ for a hotel and to drive there (it's a long drive for me).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I've done it. The first time I went to CES I made up a fake company and printed fake business cards. I did have a domain I used though, but honestly the person checking it didn't even care.

And the more recent time I went (3-4 years ago), with my real company, I did everything online and they sent me the badge in the mail so they didn't verify anything in person.

Plus even if they did reject you for some reason you're still in Vegas. I'm sure you could find plenty to do that wouldn't make it a wasted trip. 

Dan


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I've done it. The first time I went to CES I made up a fake company and printed fake business cards. I did have a domain I used though, but honestly the person checking it didn't even care.
> 
> And the more recent time I went (3-4 years ago), with my real company, I did everything online and they sent me the badge in the mail so they didn't verify anything in person.
> 
> ...


Gee, this sound like a fun thing to do.  When can you pre-reg for the next show.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

They seem to be doing the preregistration earlier and earlier every year. I think this year it was in like August or September. 

Dan


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> I've done it. The first time I went to CES I made up a fake company and printed fake business cards. I did have a domain I used though, but honestly the person checking it didn't even care.
> 
> And the more recent time I went (3-4 years ago), with my real company, I did everything online and they sent me the badge in the mail so they didn't verify anything in person.
> 
> Plus even if they did reject you for some reason you're still in Vegas. I'm sure you could find plenty to do that wouldn't make it a wasted trip.


Well... the thing is, some (random?) people have gotten letters basically asking for more proof/documentation.

Yeah, I've gone to CES when I worked for a well-known company that had a large CES presence, so I was a "qualified member". At some points, I was was even working in a groups that actually showed products on the show floor (and even worked the booth a few times). But yeah, I did everything online and they send the badge in the mail. But, you have to go pick up a badge holder and that's where they check for proof of affiliation.

I think if I just registered and used a @gmail.com email address w/some random company they'd never heard of (and printed fake business cards), that'd make me more likely to be flagged.

As for getting rejected... well, I don't gamble so it'd be mostly a wasted trip. And, it's an expensive time to go (hotel rooms are much higher than normal times.... although it was WAY worse during Comdex/CES boom times).


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

How about TiVo releases the stuff they showed at last year's show before we start worrying about next years?

Listen, I love TiVo, Ive had it for more than 10 years and will continue to use it for as long as its around, but they are just so EXASPERATINGLY SLOW. Yes, I know they don't want to release hardware that is not fully tested, I get it, but then they should allocate more funds to R&D and less to trying to sue everybody on the planet.

We still have no Mini, and the Stream STILL does not work with anything but iCRAP. So now we are going to start talking about the 2013 hardware, when all we have from 2012 is a "half-Stream" and no Mini!?!?

Like I said, I LOVE my TiVos, but they shouldn't be showing stuff off at these shows if its still got 2 years of development to go through.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

NotNowChief said:


> How about TiVo releases the stuff they showed at last year's show before we start worrying about next years?


The Mini wasn't announced at CES. It was originally mentioned on the February earnings call. 
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-02/tivo-whole-home-dvr-extenders-headed-to-retail/


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

sbiller said:


> Agree with Dave. I included the following quote in my latest Seeking Alpha article published yesterday about the acquisition.
> 
> I think it could be related to their Pique social initiative as well. Pure speculation.
> 
> Since Dave is going to CES this year I'm hoping we'll get some first hand reporting on TiVo's upcoming hardware/software.


It looks like they figured out who TiVo bought.

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=227763&site=lr_cable&f_src=lightreading_sitedefault


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> It looks like they figured out who TiVo bought.
> 
> http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=227763&site=lr_cable&f_src=lightreading_sitedefault


Hm, seems like they overpaid for something they could have built in house. Then again, my TiVo Premiere has a manufacture date of 12/09 and the HDUI is still not done three years later. I assume this acquisition includes bringing on the staff and could tie into their Pique initiative.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

davezatz said:


> Hm, seems like they overpaid for something they could have built in house. Then again, my TiVo Premiere has a manufacture date of 12/09 and the HDUI is still not done three years later. I assume this acquisition includes bringing on the staff and could tie into their Pique initiative.


Yeah I don't see what they bring for the price. From the article it does sound like it might help some with the MSOs, but who knows.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

innocentfreak said:


> The Mini wasn't announced at CES. It was originally mentioned on the February earnings call.
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-02/tivo-whole-home-dvr-extenders-headed-to-retail/


LOL, OK, so before worrying about next year's hardware, let's see for sale what we were told about this year on the February earnings call.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

NotNowChief said:


> LOL, OK, so before worrying about next year's hardware, let's see for sale what we were told about this year on the February earnings call.


Something mentioned on an earnings call doesn't constitute an official announcement. If it was we would know a lot more details.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

They first showed the Mini at the cable show in May. So they've still got 5+ months before it's even been a year. They also showed the Stream at the same show and it was released in September, which was pretty fast for TiVo. And for the record it was never promised to work on Android at the show. So those who say it's only half done are wrong. TiVo has since said they were working on Android support, but it was never promised to launch with Android support.

Dan


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> They first showed the Mini at the cable show in May. So they've still got 5+ months before it's even been a year. They also showed the Stream at the same show and it was released in September, which was pretty fast for TiVo. And for the record it was never promised to work on Android at the show. So those who say it's only half done are wrong. TiVo has since said they were working on Android support, but it was never promised to launch with Android support.
> 
> Dan


Also I believe they have always said 2013 for Android support when asked about it for the Stream. At least this is what I have always seen mentioned by TiVoDesign.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

By the time TiVo comes out with Android support they will have announced an S5 with built in stream capabilities.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

nrc said:


> "One time payment" - I guess TiVo does use those surveys.


I suspect someone had already decided on the wording. They just sent it through the survey process as a matter of form.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

aaronwt said:


> By the time TiVo comes out with Android support they will have announced an S5 with built in stream capabilities.


Tivo should release Android support and a web browser based support for the Stream at the same time. Hopefully in the S5 stream capabilities is built in, Minis are widely available, and a true whole house solution will be available in fall 2013. Until then, I'm holding off on my next Tivo hardware purchase.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

A new remote that makes sounds!!!!


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

BlackBetty said:


> A new remote that makes sounds!!!!


I could see a new remote being unveiled since the Slide is discontinued.

A new remote that makes sounds would probably be more about a new model and the remote that comes with it.


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## PatrickNSF (Dec 16, 2012)

I'm fine with 4 tuners, but I'd like more focus on the iOS apps.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

What about Android apps?


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## ShayL (Jul 18, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> What about Android apps?


I think you need to change your screen name to androidwt.


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## tre74 (Nov 12, 2010)

Hoping OTA continues to be available in any new hardware. HDMI CEC needs to be included in new hardware as well.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

My wish list for things shown at CES...

1) 6 tuner Premiere
2) Universal remote control
3) TiVo Mini with official release date
4) HBO Go support

Not actually expecting any of those, but they would all be nice

Dan


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> 6 tuners only = 7 streams (6 recording, 1 playback) if the box doesn't have network streaming capabilities.
> 
> My point was mainly that if they have a 6 tuner box they may have to limit the streaming capabilities of the box like they do now, because of I/O concerns, so expecting it to have a full 4 stream transcoder like the standalone Stream box may not be practical. The more modest 2 stream transcoder built into that Broadcom chip would probably be more reasonable.
> 
> ...


the arris box sounds like not only does it record 6 and playback one but it also streams to untold number of extenders . Seems like it does pretty much everything but change the oil in your car- lol. Plays games, browses the internet, serves up your home media va DTCP-IP and/or DLNA. would be interesting to see one in the real world if it stalls all the time gettting IO bound. (Maybe they do raid or SATA or some other hardware 'trick' as you suggested above....).

http://www.arrisi.com/products/product.asp?id=36


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

JZC said:


> In the earnings call last week, the Tivo CEO implied that there are multiple products planned for next year. He didn't specify what they were or when they would be announced/released but I'm hoping for something big.


He wouldn't want to slow Series 4 sales by saying for certain a "Series 5" is coming next year.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

My fear is that all the new boxes or any "Series 5" would be for MSO subscribers only, and they leave the OTA folks with Series 4 Premier 500GB HDD as their only solution for non-MSO subscribers.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That's very likely. OTA users are a small percentage of the market, and and even small percentage of TiVo's users. I's unlikely they will go out of their way to create a unit that supports OTA if it's not something easily accomplished with the hardware. 

Dan


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Bump. CES just 4 days away.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I hope TiVo announces new products with more really confusing names.

TiVo Premiere 6 (with 6 tuners) Series 5 Box

TiVo Premiere 5 XL (with 2 tuners and a drive bigger than the Premiere 6)

TiVo Premiere 5XL (with 4 tuners and drive bigger than Premiere 5 XL)

TiVo Premiere Elite 5 (same box as a 5XL but we'll put it out just to confuse people)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I wouldn't hold my breath for a Series 5. Maybe a 6 tuner, but probably not and if they do it'll still be a S4. 

Dan


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## Davisadm (Jan 19, 2008)

I will definitely be meeting with the TiVo folks. I will post whatever info I can after the meeting.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

Arcady said:


> I hope TiVo announces new products with more really confusing names.
> 
> TiVo Premiere 6 (with 6 tuners) Series 5 Box
> 
> ...


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Arcady said:


> I hope TiVo announces new products with more really confusing names.
> 
> TiVo Premiere 6 (with 6 tuners) Series 5 Box
> 
> ...


I know you are joking, but I could see a change somewhat in how TiVo releases models. I fully expect them to keep the Premiere name unless there is a drastic change in a new model beyond just the hardware.

I could see a Premiere 6 which actually ends up being 6 tuners and 3-4TBs. It would probably be $699 initially assuming the 4TB drive, $599 if 3TB, and also come with upgraded internals. It would be faster than the Premiere, P4, P4XL, but only so much faster since we know the P4 and P4XL are slower than the regular Premiere with the same chip. It might also have the onboard Stream functionality, but this again may sacrifice some speed resulting in performance closer to the Premiere than a new model with a new chip.

I could even see them launching the retail Mini at the same time as the P6 and offering a bundle.

Then at least 6 months later once they feel they may have recouped a decent amount of investment in the new chip, I could see them launching a new base TiVo model which either uses the same chip as in the P6 or another step up depending on internal testing and gains on the P6. I could see this being the change of name especially if they added Stream functionality, new remote, MoCa, etc. They could even just drop Premiere an call it the new TiVo. It would come with a base of 1TB. The XL model would be 2-3TB. At this point the Premiere 6 would drop in price to $499 for the 4TB or $399 for the 3TB.

I think depending on the sales of the P6 and how much the internals on the new TiVo have improved we might see another TiVo 4/Elite. They would drop the 4XL and only offer the 4 with a 2TB drive. It would also be a good stepping stone between the new TiVo and the P6.

Then 6-12 months later depending on chip advancement we see new TiVo 6 once again with a new faster chip than what the current new TiVo and TiVo 4 use.

By this time we should have some clue about the future of TV unless the FCC has delayed improving the situation once again. If so I would expect the next TiVo to be a bridge from CableCARD to the new IP interface.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Swung by the LVCC to do some exploring, visit the Engadget trailer (I beat Ben to Vegas?), and grab some Starbucks. Unfortunately, the SBUX wasn't open but I did peak into TiVo's room. The space is still being built up but I noticed EPIX on the wall again - something we saw at The Cable Show but was never elaborated on as far I can recall. Perhaps that's the next app? HBOGO and ESPN3 would be more my speed...


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## redbeard25 (Jan 15, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Unfortunately, the SBUX wasn't open but I did peak into TiVo's room. The space is still being built up but I noticed EPIX on the wall again - something we saw at The Cable Show but was never elaborated on as far I can recall. Perhaps that's the next app? HBOGO and ESPN3 would be more my speed...


Keep us posted!!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> I know you are joking, but I could see a change somewhat in how TiVo releases models. I fully expect them to keep the Premiere name unless there is a drastic change in a new model beyond just the hardware.
> 
> I could see a Premiere 6 which actually ends up being 6 tuners and 3-4TBs. It would probably be $699 initially assuming the 4TB drive, $599 if 3TB, and also come with upgraded internals. ................


I would love for this to happen. I would definitely sell both of my Elites to get a Premiere 6 with 4TB and two Minis.

Although realistically, if they did announce something, it would probably be ten months until it was released.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> I would love for this to happen. I would definitely sell both of my Elites to get a Premiere 6 with 4TB and two Minis.
> 
> Although realistically, if they did announce something, it would probably be ten months until it was released.


If the hardware is anywhere near ready, I could see them trying to release at the same time as the Mini. March marks 3 years with the Premiere so I could see a March release. If not, then I agree it would be September or at least 6 months after the Mini release before we see a 6 tuner model.

I think it would be a mistake to rollout the Mini and then 2-3 months later roll out a 6 tuner model. You risk pissing off anyone who just bought the 4 and a Mini since there are those who would have waited. Also it would make sense to announce a 6 tuner model at the same time as the Mini to take the whole home experience to the next level.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

If they do release a 6 tuner unit (highly doubtful), they better pick a better tuner maker than the one currently used in 4 tuner units (Maxlinear chip?). I've had lots of trouble with it losing tuners and/or not being able to decrypt channels until rebooted vs no trouble with my 2 tuner units, and I know I'm not alone. Also, they need a much beefier processor since the 4 tuner unit is also by far the most sluggish running any kind of Flash app, including the HDUI. (Kind of ironic I got the 4 tuner unit to not have to worry about conflicts, but now I have to worry recordings being missed due to flakiness).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I've never had a tuner issue with my Elite, but I do have issues with my old 2 tuner Premiere XL. I'm sure there is anicdotal evidence of issues with both platforms. 

Dan


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

My question would be, is Tivo going to make the Series 5 themselves? The Pace XG1 box is using hardware that is the natural successor to the Premiere (3x the performance and built-in 2-stream transcoding). I wonder if it makes sense for Pace to manufacture the retail hardware for them.

Anyway, my final CES guesses - Mini, Android app, and the Pace XG1 box with new audible remote. The audible remote poll was definitely a teaser. Since it requires hardware support, it wouldn't make sense not to show the hardware that supports it (the Pace box).

No retail Series 5 hardware yet. We'll see it a bit later (Cable Show or Cedia) or we could hear about it first through FCC waiver filings.

If there is a retail 6-tuner Series 5, I'd be surprised if it was available on day 1. The initial lineup may looks similar to the current one. (2-tuner with OTA and a cable-only 4-tuner option). MoCA and 2-stream transcoding across the board. Analog support may be gone.

I don't think they'll release the Mini at the same time as the S5. Tivo needs to get FCC waivers which will take some extra time, and simultaneous launches would blur the messaging and focus. We'll see the Mini soon-ish.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> My question would be, is Tivo going to make the Series 5 themselves? The Pace XG1 box is using hardware that is the natural successor to the Premiere (3x the performance and built-in 2-stream transcoding). I wonder if it makes sense for Pace to manufacture the retail hardware for them.


Yeah, I have that same thought/question. I would think the advantages outweigh the liabilities.



> or we could hear about it first through FCC waiver filings.


If they (finally) were to integrate RF or WiFi, it'd be easier to spot...


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

davezatz said:


> If they (finally) were to integrate RF or WiFi, it'd be easier to spot...


Ah, interesting point. How do most audible alert remotes work, RF?


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Ah, interesting point. How do most audible alert remotes work, RF?


Yeah, it'd probably be RF/Bluetooth. DISH Hopper already has a similar feature, believe it's RF.


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## NikkiSixx (Sep 21, 2005)

http://ces13.mapyourshow.com/5_0/ex...b0b4a1d87-77E9AB3A-0E11-9F7A-42A8D449704881A2

I hate to disappoint anyone going to ces 2013 but TiVo will once again be absent from the show floor as they were the last two years I can confirm. I attended the 2010, 2011, 2012 shows and being a big TiVo fan and owner since 2005 I have looked for them every year. The last 2 yrs I found them....well sort of, you see above one of the massiv halls is a corridors of meeting rooms. In the directory I found the listing..north hall meeting rooms. Which are very hard to find once up there (and I went during the day) you feel like your walking in a area your not supposed to be In. Little to no signs almost no people, very quiet. And when I finally found the room I was small and there was nobody there, no booth , no display, What the hell TiVo? 2 years in a row this same thing happened. And this year....well click the link above and you will see their listed again.

TiVo Inc.
Booth: 
LVCC, North Hall Mtg Rms - N246

So if I even waste my time a 3rd time out of morbid curiosity I will certainly snap a pic of whatever I see and post it here publicly.
I am soo thoroughly disappointed in TiVo. As first I thought it was a booth price thing. Nope. There are dozens of booths on th floor by little retailers that lottery sell china junk you buy off fleabay! So there is no way TiVo couldn't afford to be present.
For the self proclaimed DVR leader / innovator of the world, this really is embarrassing. As of January 2012, TiVo has approximately 2.3 million subscribers in the United States. So there monthly revenue is about 20 million dollars! Monthly!! I'm just sayin.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Yes they don't bring in much money each month. But aren't there large corporations that don't have a booth at CES? TiVo doesn't have a booth because they choose not to. This is nothing new is it?.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> Yes they don't bring in much money each month. But aren't there large corporations that don't have a booth at CES? TiVo doesn't have a booth because they choose not to. This is nothing new is it?.


Correct. CES is an expensive endeavor and TiVo historically has decided that a flashy booth for random folks to stroll through isn't the best investment of their time and money - they use the show for a semi private space to meet with investor groups, partners, sales folks, press, etc. After seeing Digeo/Moxi blow a million bucks on a booth and still fail to launch the product shown, I understand.

Microsoft has no booth this year for example. The DVR side of Motorola Home isn't on the show floor and is meeting me privately, etc.


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## drebbe (Apr 11, 2012)

Tom Rogers (CEO of TiVo) is presenting at the Citibank Global Internet, Media & Telecommunications Conference in Las Vegas at 10:30 AM PT tomorrow morning. I have not found investor conferences to be a great source of information but it suggests if TiVo has anything to say this week they will say it at or before the time of this conference.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> ...
> 
> Anyway, my final CES guesses -... the Pace XG1 box with new audible remote. The audible remote poll was definitely a teaser. Since it requires hardware support, it wouldn't make sense not to show the hardware that supports it (the Pace box).
> 
> .....


why are we figuring the audible remote requires hardware support? For a "find me" button i presume? I was wondering how you were supposed to make the remote whistle or whatever.

is it wrong to assume they could send audio back to the remote by Bluetooth?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> why are we figuring the audible remote requires hardware support? For a "find me" button i presume? I was wondering how you were supposed to make the remote whistle or whatever.
> 
> is it wrong to assume they could send audio back to the remote by Bluetooth?


The "find remote" button, yes. A button on the box was mentioned in the audible remote poll. It could work with existing hardware in theory with an RF/BT dongle that has the button on it, but that's a little ghetto if not hard to reach. Best to build BT into the box natively.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The "find remote" button, yes. A button was mentioned in the audible remote poll. It could work with existing hardware in theory with an RF/BT dongle that has the button on it, but that's a little ghetto if not hard to reach. Best to build BT into the box natively.


agreed best to build BT in- but they have gone the dongle route thus far so why expect them to change and actually build a high end device all of a sudden? They basically have cheaped out with the hardware at every turn for some time now.

Hopefully they do build a box with BT and a button but I wont hold my breath.

They could do something with software with the format button on the current boxes (all the boxes have those I am guessing?). Use the same BT dongle like the old slide remote. Then Press and hold the format button until the remote starts whistling.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> agreed best to build BT in- but they have gone the dongle route thus far so why expect them to change and actually build a high end device all of a sudden? They basically have cheaped out with the hardware at every turn for some time now.
> 
> Hopefully they do build a box with BT and a button but I wont hold my breath.
> 
> They could do something with software with the format button on the current boxes (all the boxes have those I am guessing?). Use the same BT dongle like the old slide remote. Then Press and hold the format button until the remote starts whistling.


The Pace box has 6 tuners, DOCSIS 3.0, MoCA 2.0, 2-stream transcoding... it's a pretty high-end box. The next round of hardware (retail and MSO) will have some decent horsepower behind it. An integrated RF radio wouldn't be so far out of the question, given that.

That being said, a button on the box is my guess because it was mentioned, not an expectation per se. They could make the new remote an optional retail accessory and use a dongle with a re-programmed video button if they wanted to, too. Either way, we'll see (or not, lol).


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## gothaggis (Mar 3, 2010)

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

No pricing yet? Didn't we already see this?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

What else are they showing? Surely their booth is larger than a lemonade stand.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

gothaggis said:


> http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/


That has to be the lamest report I've ever seen.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ah30k said:


> That has to be the lamest report I've ever seen.


watch the video they demo it and clearly say there is going to be monthly fee or lifetime option seems like pretty big news to me


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## spaldingclan (Aug 22, 2012)

atmuscarella said:


> watch the video they demo it and clearly say there is going to be monthly fee or lifetime option seems like pretty big news to me


yep, he specifically says the hardware will be cheaper and the monthly cost will be cheaper. Lifetime offered too.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> watch the video they demo it and clearly say there is going to be monthly fee or lifetime option seems like pretty big news to me


Seems to me that's going to put a big damper on Mini demand.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I wonder how much of the software is running on the Mini and how much is running on the XL4. If its mostly mini then I can see the reason for the service fee. However if its basically the equivalent of a thin client VNC kind of thing then it seems kind of unfair.

Now if its a fat client, I wonder if the mini client in many cases will be faster than the server client because of faster hardware.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

The software appears to basically be a slightly stripped down version of the DVR software running on the Mini itself. It may have faster hardware, but I suspect most of the slight speed benefit comes from no recording overhead on the CPU. Plus the software itself is probably running off a small flash chip (no HDD). It's a slight, but not amazing, bump.


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## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> watch the video they demo it and clearly say there is going to be monthly fee or lifetime option seems like pretty big news to me


It maybe news but certainly not big news. This is the exact pricing model that has been speculated here since the initial announcement of the Mini.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

ah30k said:


> That has to be the lamest report I've ever seen.





atmuscarella said:


> watch the video they demo it and clearly say there is going to be monthly fee or lifetime option seems like pretty big news to me


I swear that video wasn't there when I first read the post  It was just a short paragraph and some pics.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

ah30k said:


> I swear that video wasn't there when I first read the post  It was just a short paragraph and some pics.


It wasn't... the challenges of blogger updates...


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

tivogurl said:


> Seems to me that's going to put a big damper on Mini demand.


I agree that Lifetime had better be cheap. I'm not paying $100 for the device and $100+ for lifetime.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

magnus said:


> I agree that Lifetime had better be cheap. I'm not paying $100 for the device and $100+ for lifetime.


as i wrote in the other thread- why would they break it apart and add the confusion of "service fee" to yet another device unless the lifetime is high.

If it was a $99 box plus $99 lifetime- why not just charge $199 for the box and include lifetime for "free"? Unless you want to charge so much that you think it best to break it into 2 parts even if that adds confusion/barrier to entry, that has plagued your primary products sales for a decade....


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> If it was a $99 box plus $99 lifetime- why not just charge $199 for the box and include lifetime for "free"? Unless you want to charge so much that you think it best to break it into 2 parts even if that adds confusion/barrier to entry, that has plagued your primary products sales for a decade....


Probably because it would make more sense to offer it as a bundle with an XL4 so they can advertise their version of the "whole home solution". Then they can offer a lower up front cost by having a monthly fee option. My guess is TiVo is looking to get this in the hands of new TiVo users with a bundle and not cater just to people who already have a XL4.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

NikkiSixx said:


> I hate to disappoint anyone going ...... but they stopped having a booth LONG ago.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

atmuscarella said:


> watch the video they demo it and clearly say there is going to be monthly fee or lifetime option seems like pretty big news to me


FAIL.

FAIL.

FAIL.

Ugh.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

The pricing at least based off the discussion over on Zatz's blog, http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-01/tivo-mini-set-for-spring-service-fee-in-tow/#comments, seems like it could be more of MSO pressure.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> The pricing at least based off the discussion over on Zatz's blog, http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-01/tivo-mini-set-for-spring-service-fee-in-tow/#comments, seems like it could be more of MSO pressure.


I assume it's a combination of things... including not wanting to undercut the cable partners and also generate enough (whatever "enough" is) revenue to make it a worthwhile endeavor for them to take it to retail.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

davezatz said:


> I assume it's a combination of things... including not wanting to undercut the cable partners and also generate enough (whatever "enough" is) revenue to make it a worthwhile endeavor for them to take it to retail.


I don't think they should try to sell it at a loss, but I agree it will be curious to see what they think enough is. I can unfortunately see the Stream, if it actually comes out, being priced like the original Media Center extenders which were $200-$300.

While yes it will save you money over buying a Premiere, it won't be the cost savings it should be.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

Well, if these pricing rumors and subscriptions are true, TiVo just "unsold" me on a minimum of 2 Mini's. 

Instead of buying a Mini for $100+ and having to pay a subscription, I'll just go grab an unmodded non-PLS HD or HDXL off eBay (or someone from here) for 50-100 or so bucks, and pay the $9.95 for an additional, full featured (admittedly old-tech) DVR that can add to my storage capacity and have the MRV features. Heck, I'll just buy a refurbished Premiere for 59.99 from TiVo themselves! 

This is very disappointing news TiVo.

Sorry TiVo, but in my opinion, you guys FAILED. Again. Maybe they can at least iron out that whole Android/Stream dilemma by CES 2020.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

NotNowChief said:


> Well, if these pricing rumors and subscriptions are true, TiVo just "unsold" me on a minimum of 2 Mini's.... Heck, I'll just buy a refurbished Premiere for 59.99 from TiVo themselves!.


Exactly. Why would I pay more for a limited-feature device (Mini) that requires a separately-purchased four-tuner Tivo for its operation, than I would pay for a for full-featured DVR (Premiere) which can function independently? I think my price ceiling just became $60 for a Mini.

I just read elsewhere that DirecTV's five-tuner Genie comes free with three of their extenders. Let Tivo provide me with three Minis to complement my XL4 and then we can talk about pricing on the fourth.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

DaveDFW said:


> Exactly. Why would I pay more for a limited-feature device (Mini) that requires a separately-purchased four-tuner Tivo for its operation, than I would pay for a for full-featured DVR (Premiere) which can function independently? I think my price ceiling just became $60 for a Mini.
> 
> I just read elsewhere that DirecTV's five-tuner Genie comes free with three of their extenders. Let Tivo provide me with three Minis to complement my XL4 and then we can talk about pricing on the fourth.


Even if you already have the 4-tuner Premiere, if I'm gonna have to pay over $100.00 bucks AND a subscription for a Mini, I will be buying a used HD or refurb Premiere.

I cannot believe they are dropping the ball SO BAD on this.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Totally your choice. Mini is supposed to be cheaper, but if you want a full retail box then just get one. I'm not sure why everyone was thinking this thing would be so cheap. Pricing options are good for consumers.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

jrtroo said:


> Totally your choice. Mini is supposed to be cheaper, but if you want a full retail box then just get one. I'm not sure why everyone was thinking this thing would be so cheap. Pricing options are good for consumers.


I was thinking more in the $129-$149 range....TOPS....and NO subscription fees. What a disappointment!


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

jrtroo said:


> Totally your choice. Mini is supposed to be cheaper, but if you want a full retail box then just get one. I'm not sure why everyone was thinking this thing would be so cheap. Pricing options are good for consumers.


No, I don't want or even need all the features of a full retail DVR in the locations in which a Mini would be appropriate. But if Tivo is pricing the Mini so that it isn't price-competitive with a full DVR, why wouldn't I just get the second DVR?

After all these years, I shouldn't have expected anything different from Tivo.

* Missed delivery date? Check.
* Assumed broken functionality at launch? Check.
* So few details available that fans must speculate? Check.
* Confusing and illogical pricing structure that discourages both new and existing customers? Check.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

DaveDFW said:


> No, I don't want or even need all the features of a full retail DVR in the locations in which a Mini would be appropriate. But if Tivo is pricing the Mini so that it isn't price-competitive with a full DVR, why wouldn't I just get the second DVR?
> 
> After all these years, I shouldn't have expected anything different from Tivo.
> 
> ...


Nice to meet you Gospel, I'm the Choir LOL.

As much as I love TiVo, they are just so weird.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

DaveDFW said:


> After all these years, I shouldn't have expected anything different from Tivo.
> 
> * Missed delivery date? Check.
> * Assumed broken functionality at launch? Check.
> ...


Do I laugh or do I cry?


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## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

DaveDFW said:


> No, I don't want or even need all the features of a full retail DVR in the locations in which a Mini would be appropriate. But if Tivo is pricing the Mini so that it isn't price-competitive with a full DVR, why wouldn't I just get the second DVR?


One reason might be the "additional outlet fee" that comcast customers pay for a full TiVo DVR. And if your premium (or others) channels have the copy bit set, you can't stream to another DVR.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

HazelW said:


> And if your premium (or others) channels have the copy bit set, you can't stream to another DVR.


This is no longer true for the Premiere line--all Premieres, including $60 refurbs, are able to stream copy-protected recordings.



HazelW said:


> One reason might be the "additional outlet fee" that comcast customers pay for a full TiVo DVR.


You wouldn't need a cablecard or even attach a second $60 DVR to coax if your only interest was duplicating the functionality of a Mini. All you need is an activated box with network access. At that point it's just a box sitting on your network that can stream with another Premiere.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

DaveDFW said:


> Exactly. Why would I pay more for a limited-feature device (Mini) that requires a separately-purchased four-tuner Tivo for its operation, than I would pay for a for full-featured DVR (Premiere) which can function independently? I think my price ceiling just became $60 for a Mini.


I think you need to look at total costs. As of right now you can get a refurb TiVo for $60 but you're going to pay either $400 for lifetime or $13/mo for MSD service. Now lets assume the Mini is $150 for the box plus $200 for lifetime or $5/mo for service. That's still a $110 savings if you go lifetime or $102 savings over 24 months for monthly. Is $110 worth having a fully functional DVR instead of a streaming box? That's up to you to decide.

Note: Those figures are completely made up, they were only used to illustrate that even if the Mini has a higher hardware cost as long as the fee is lower it's still cheaper over the long run.

Edit: I forgot about the CableCARD fee and potential outlet fee. So at the very least a Mini will save you $2.50/mo for a CableCARD and in some areas it could save as much as $10/mo by avoiding the outlet fee.

Dan


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## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I think you need to look at total costs. As of right now you can get a refurb TiVo for $60 but you're going to pay either $400 for lifetime or $13/mo for MSD service. Now lets assume the Mini is $150 for the box plus $200 for lifetime or $5/mo for service. That's still a $110 savings if you go lifetime or $102 savings over 24 months for monthly. Is $110 worth having a fully functional DVR instead of a streaming box? That's up to you to decide.
> 
> Note: Those figures are completely made up, they were only used to illustrate that even if the Mini has a higher hardware cost as long as the fee is lower it's still cheaper over the long run.
> 
> ...


And don't forget that you can not stream any copy protected program to another DVR.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

HazelW said:


> And don't forget that you can not stream any copy protected program to another DVR.


Sure you can, provided both DVRs are Premieres.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

HazelW said:


> And don't forget that you can not stream any copy protected program to another DVR.


Not true. You can stream but not copy. This is why the Premiere platform now offers streaming.


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## button1066 (Sep 4, 2012)

NotNowChief said:


> I was thinking more in the $129-$149 range....TOPS....and NO subscription fees. What a disappointment!


Either you want it or you don't and it's hardly a life changing sum of money involved.

Personally speaking I think the Mini is nice(ish) but really not that big of a deal. I'd rather have another Premiere with lifetime which I'm always tempted to just go ahead and buy. Once you shell out the cash its gone and you go onto the next thing which is bound to be just round the corner.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

DaveDFW said:


> Exactly. Why would I pay more for a limited-feature device (Mini) that requires a separately-purchased four-tuner Tivo for its operation, than I would pay for a for full-featured DVR (Premiere) which can function independently? I think my price ceiling just became $60 for a Mini.
> 
> I just read elsewhere that DirecTV's five-tuner Genie comes free with three of their extenders. Let Tivo provide me with three Minis to complement my XL4 and then we can talk about pricing on the fourth.


got the directv mailer today actually. The Genie is actually free itself too- i'd have to read the fine print if there is a monthly fee.

Tivo can't compete with any of that...


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Verizon 6-tuner whole home solution http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/verizon-media-server-and-ip-client-hands-on/

Purely from a business point of view, if you believe the TiVo experience would be better than the Verizon experience then you should charge at least as much as Verizon. Both are still just a matter of speculation so we will just have to wait.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ah30k said:


> Verizon 6-tuner whole home solution http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/verizon-media-server-and-ip-client-hands-on/
> 
> Purely from a business point of view, if you believe the TiVo experience would be better than the Verizon experience then you should charge at least as much as Verizon. Both are still just a matter of speculation so we will just have to wait.


I don't think that's a given at all.

I'm not a marketing guy at all but i'd assume it's a lot more complex than that. Tivo (the business) is a lot more complicated then running a lemonade stand 3 doors down from another lemonade stand. Tivo and verizon aren't both selling widgets as a commodity item.

I'm sure that google would argue that android is a better experience than ios but they dont charge a dime for their OS. If you want to talk hardware- google would probably argue a nexus 7 is better than an apple mini ipad yet they are priced about half as much. Samsung would argue a galaxy s III is better than an iphone yet they don't necessarily charge more than apple. Different businesses have different business models.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

DaveDFW said:


> No, I don't want or even need all the features of a full retail DVR in the locations in which a Mini would be appropriate. But if Tivo is pricing the Mini so that it isn't price-competitive with a full DVR, why wouldn't I just get the second DVR?


Also, hopefully the Mini uses WAY less power than another DVR.. (Though Premiere uses less than the S3s, IIRC)

I'm not saying I'm not disappointed that this will apparently have a service fee. Personally, the Tivo Stream is somewhat reasonably priced. Yeah, it's kind of weird that it's MORE than Roku/AppleTV/etc that do a lot more, and hopefully that functionality (downloading/streaming to iOS devices) will be built into future Tivos.. But I'm using mine practically every day and am fairly satisfied with it. (It irks me that the Premiere and the iPad BOTH have to see the Internet/Tivo WHILE they're streaming/downloading, whereas if I download to a computer, I can do it on a completely local network.. Yes, this is somewhat grumbling for my semi-flaky network, but it still seems like an unreasonable limitation.)


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> got the directv mailer today actually. The Genie is actually free itself too- i'd have to read the fine print if there is a monthly fee.
> 
> Tivo can't compete with any of that...


There is nothing ever free from directv. You're paying a monthly fee but its all rolled into that cost.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

HazelW said:


> And don't forget that you can not stream any copy protected program to another DVR.


Please quit saying this.

A Premiere DVR can do ANYTHING the mini can do and quite a bit more. other than the down side of a bit more money, there is no lack of features using a Premiere at each location. This is exactly the decision I made a couple months ago and gave up on waiting for the mini. Could not be happier with my whole home Tivo solution. 6 displays using 3 Tivo Premieres. One with a 2TB drive that stores the combined NPL for all units in the house.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> got the directv mailer today actually. The Genie is actually free itself too- i'd have to read the fine print if there is a monthly fee.
> 
> Tivo can't compete with any of that...


No, the DirectTV DVR is NOT free. Just try cancelling that $100 a month payment and see how much they charge for it if you quit paying them....


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

button1066 said:


> Either you want it or you don't and it's hardly a life changing sum of money involved.
> 
> Personally speaking I think the Mini is nice(ish) but really not that big of a deal. I'd rather have another Premiere with lifetime which I'm always tempted to just go ahead and buy. Once you shell out the cash its gone and you go onto the next thing which is bound to be just round the corner.


Maybe you didn't read my other comment, but you're telling me EXACTLY what I said in my earlier post.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

So, it seems I will be in the market for a 2-tuner base Premiere, refurb or used, for my kitchen: to be used for the local channels only which come with FiOS, no cablecards. I was holding out for the Mini for my kitchen TV and basement TV, but that's not happening. Id rather have a full-featured DVR if I'm going to have to pay an additional monthly fee. These boxes should have been a bit more expensive than the Stream, and NO subscription fee.

Assuming the Mini is only 5 bucks a month, but will most likey be 6.95 or more (which is the going rate for older grandfathered DVRs) plus the hardware cost, we KNOW for a FACT it is going to be FULL of new-production bugs and loaded with half-baked software to begin with, so I may as well just get one of their old DVRs and pay them 10-12/mo and call it a day.

*On the TiVo home page at the launch of the Mini, I fully expect them to have the internet meme of the "Captain Picard facepalm". In honor of this, I have elected to add an avatar to my profile of said meme.*


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

NotNowChief said:


> So, it seems I will be in the market for a 2-tuner base Premiere, refurb or used, for my kitchen: to be used for the local channels only which come with FiOS, no cablecards. I was holding out for the Mini for my kitchen TV and basement TV, but that's not happening. Id rather have a full-featured DVR if I'm going to have to pay an additional monthly fee. These boxes should have been a bit more expensive than the Stream, and NO subscription fee.[/COLOR][/B]


Huh? Buy it with lifetime and there's no monthly fee. I'm not sure why you are caught up in semantics. My guess is the Mini will be close to half the cost of a Premiere w/ lifetime.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

rainwater said:


> Huh? Buy it with lifetime and there's no monthly fee. I'm not sure why you are caught up in semantics. My guess is the Mini will be close to half the cost of a Premiere w/ lifetime.


At half the price of a Premiere, the Mini will still be overpriced. I keep looking to DirecTV's Genie system for a comparison--it is a brand-new offering with a similar concept as a four-tuner Premiere plus Minis.

Three DTV "minis" are free, though there is a $6 per month charge on each. So, yes, there is a service fee, but remember the up-front cost was zero. For your fourth DTV "mini," the up-front cost is $49, with an additional $6 monthly fee in tow. The Genie itself isn't truly free, it brings along a $10 monthly fee.

My parents have one of these, and it is light-years ahead of a typical cable-company-provided monstrosity. It is a modern, usable system with a decent UI.

Tivo needs to compete with this pricing. I've historically been a big Tivo fan, but I'm not going to let them pick my pockets. They need to price their products competitively.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

rainwater said:


> Huh? Buy it with lifetime and there's no monthly fee. I'm not sure why you are caught up in semantics. My guess is the Mini will be close to half the cost of a Premiere w/ lifetime.


If I buy a Stream (if they could get the Android to work...HELLOOOOOOOO) I don't have to pay any fees to watch my content on other devices, so my impression was always that the Mini would maybe cost a little more (149ish?) but not have any nonsense fees either.

Facepalm. Facepalm. Facepalm. I don't mean to rant, but I LOVE TiVo and I am just SO disappointed that they "screwed up" AGAIN. We get an exciting new product, and it just isn't all its' cracked up to be. The Premiere came out and was PLAGUED with HDUI problems. The Stream came out, with Apple-only, and even those had alot of hardware problems.

It's just, like, COME. ON.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

We have no idea what price they're going to release the Mini at, so there's no point in continuing to rant about it. All that matters to me is the total cost, however they want to dish that up. I won't pay monthly for anything from Tivo.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> We have no idea what price they're going to release the Mini at, so there's no point in continuing to rant about it. All that matters to me is the total cost, however they want to dish that up. I won't pay monthly for anything from Tivo.


The problem is that Tivo's demonstrator in the engadget video clearly mentioned monthly service and lifetime. So they're telling us there's going to be a fee, but refusing to tell us what it will be.

Several of us are arguing that there is no logical basis for a recurring service fee, since this new device's function is totally dependent on a separate device which requires its own active service.

My opinion is that Tivo should be thankful that a potential customer would choose a Mini over a Premiere. Premieres need subsidization through high service fees because Tivo sells the hardware at a loss. Tivo's financial position would improve if they would stop pushing people to purchase DVRs on which Tivo incurs a loss.

Price the Mini to cover its costs plus reasonable profits, and abandon the misguided notion of a service fee.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I don't think they are "refusing to tell us what it will be" because, as they mentioned, they don't know yet what it will be.

Two methods of payment are simply options to the consumer. Everyone here already has a tivo, but we are not the market. New customers buying a Tivo and a mini will likely want to bundle their services together- monthly for all or lifetime for all. Lots of folks pay monthly, and Tivo makes more revenue from that, so why not offer it?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

DaveDFW said:


> Price the Mini to cover its costs plus reasonable profits, and abandon the misguided notion of a service fee.


I'll repeat what I said in the other thread on this topic: Don't get hung up on terminology.

All that matters from a buyers point of view is what the final cost is. If TiVo charges $250 for the mini without a service fee or charges $150 + $100 lifetime service fee is irrelevant. All that matters is that I have to pay $250.

Until we know what the price is there is no use in complaining about it.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

DaveDFW said:


> My opinion is that Tivo should be thankful that a potential customer would choose a Mini over a Premiere. Premieres need subsidization through high service fees because Tivo sells the hardware at a loss. Tivo's financial position would improve if they would stop pushing people to purchase DVRs on which Tivo incurs a loss.


Great point. Tivo starts at a loss of $160+ on average. They could sell the Mini at cost (probably $150ish) and it's a win. Sell it a little higher ($180? $199?) and it covers some of the loss from the host DVR. Makes customers more profitable faster.

Don't know what they'll do, but $199 all-in is my limit.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Is it not true that the other issue is that the mini required stealing a tuner from your Elite/XL4? And by stealing, I mean "permanently" turning your Elite/XL4 into a 3 tuner DVR?

In the new software, I stumbled into the setup screen for this and I am sure it basically said that.

If this is the case, it is a big fail. Purchase+Service Fee+Turns Elite into 3 tuner model= why?


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

larrs said:


> Is it not true that the other issue is that the mini required stealing a tuner from your Elite/XL4? And by stealing, I mean "permanently" turning your Elite/XL4 into a 3 tuner DVR?
> 
> In the new software, I stumbled into the setup screen for this and I am sure it basically said that.
> 
> If this is the case, it is a big fail. Purchase+Service Fee+Turns Elite into 3 tuner model= why?


They are "WORKING ON" dynamic tuner allocation to avoid that, so it will grab any available tuner. But then again, they are "working on" alot of things.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

larrs said:


> Is it not true that the other issue is that the mini required stealing a tuner from your Elite/XL4? And by stealing, I mean "permanently" turning your Elite/XL4 into a 3 tuner DVR?
> 
> In the new software, I stumbled into the setup screen for this and I am sure it basically said that.
> 
> If this is the case, it is a big fail. Purchase+Service Fee+Turns Elite into 3 tuner model= why?


You only lose tuners on the host Tivo if you allocate tuners to a Mini, and the only purpose for allocating a tuner is to enable viewing of live TV on that Mini.

So if your priority is to allow live TV viewing on a Mini, yes, your host Tivo will lose a tuner. We will have the option of allocating zero tuners to Minis, leaving all four available to the host Tivo but disabling live TV viewing on Minis.

Dynamic tuner allocation is one of those rumors we hear about. But based on Tivo's track record, I would never buy one of their products based on promises of future functionality. Only buy for what it can currently do, because that future functionality many never arrive.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

DaveDFW said:


> Only buy for what it can currently do, because that future functionality many never arrive.


That's good advice for any product. TiVo isn't the only company to make promises they couldn't deliver.

Dan


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

magnus said:


> There is nothing ever free from directv. You're paying a monthly fee but its all rolled into that cost.


my point about the "free" stuff from Directv is that tivo can't compete with cable and dbs advertising for Joe Sixpacks looking at pricing. And more importantly I'm not sure that Tivo needs to- since that battle seems to be a lost cause they need to sell their product as being worth the money so getting caught up in what other people charge isn't entirely relevant.

Does Apple give a rat's but that a nexus 7 tablet from google is almost half as cheap as the an ipad mini? Just give people a reason to buy the product and they will regardless of the cost (and in this case the perceived cost).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

NotNowChief said:


> So, it seems I will be in the market for a 2-tuner base Premiere, refurb or used, for my kitchen: to be used for the local channels only which come with FiOS, no cablecards. I was holding out for the Mini for my kitchen TV and basement TV, but that's not happening. Id rather have a full-featured DVR if I'm going to have to pay an additional monthly fee. These boxes should have been a bit more expensive than the Stream, and NO subscription fee.


You CANNOT use a Tivo without cablecards "as intended" with cable.

You will not get guide data. You can manually record things (in half hour increments), but I believe because you won't get guide data, EVERYTHING will show up as "Manual Recording" in the Now Showing menu.

Theoretically, channels can move around on you, but I think this part is a non-issue for most people.. But I think your channels won't match what you "think" they are (e.g. 2 for Fox, etc.).

Basically, if you want to use it JUST as a tuner without cable cards, maybe, but paying for the subscription for that seems expensive.. Seems like a 4 tuner Tivo + Mini would make more sense/be cheaper.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

mattack said:


> You CANNOT use a Tivo without cablecards "as intended" with cable.
> 
> You will not get guide data. You can manually record things (in half hour increments), but I believe because you won't get guide data, EVERYTHING will show up as "Manual Recording" in the Now Showing menu.
> 
> ...


Hmmm. The reason why I had the idea, was the TVs in question have QAM tuners, and currently receives local HD channels with no FiOS equipment, on their correct channels. I was wondering if I used a TiVo with no cable cards, but an active subscription, it would work in there. Its too much work to pull one of my DVRs from another room, remove the cable card, rerun guided setup, temporarily connect it in the kitchen or basement, see it works, and then undo everything.

It seems I'm just going to be leaving it the way it is, after all, it IS the kitchen and basement and not the living room or bedroom, so just having the standard channels is fine. All along, I've been holding out for a Mini to go in those rooms just to "add" to it, but the monthly subscription for it just killed that whole plan. :down:


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

larrs said:


> Is it not true that the other issue is that the mini required stealing a tuner from your Elite/XL4? And by stealing, I mean "permanently" turning your Elite/XL4 into a 3 tuner DVR?
> 
> In the new software, I stumbled into the setup screen for this and I am sure it basically said that.
> 
> If this is the case, it is a big fail. Purchase+Service Fee+Turns Elite into 3 tuner model= why?


This is something you can turn off. If you don't need live TV at the Mini then you can leave your 4 tuners intact and use the Mini strictly for streaming recordings.

Dan


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

NotNowChief said:


> Even if you already have the 4-tuner Premiere, if I'm gonna have to pay over $100.00 bucks AND a subscription for a Mini, I will be buying a used HD or refurb Premiere.
> 
> I cannot believe they are dropping the ball SO BAD on this.


I think you guys are not taking into consideration the extra cost of a Cable Card if you purchase a HD TiVo, a TP with lifetime will still cost you about $450 + the extra cable card cost, in some places that could be well over $10/month including the taxes and other crap the cable co stick on your bill. Given that the Mini power will be less than TP there would be a little power savings, the TP is about 25 watts, I can't believe the Mini will be less than say 10 watts, that 15 watts savings, about $15/year at $015/KW. Also if the Mini is going into the bedroom one will have zero noise.
I personally have no use for the Mini as I now own 3 TPs + a TP-4, that 10 tuners using only 4 cable cards. If I were starting from scratch I guess I could have considered two TP-4s + two Minis for a 8 tuner home system.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

NotNowChief said:


> Hmmm. The reason why I had the idea, was the TVs in question have QAM tuners, and currently receives local HD channels with no FiOS equipment, on their correct channels. I was wondering if I used a TiVo with no cable cards, but an active subscription, it would work in there.


Yes, but it wouldn't work "as expected" to be able to record stuff.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> This is something you can turn off. If you don't need live TV at the Mini then you can leave your 4 tuners intact and use the Mini strictly for streaming recordings.
> 
> Dan


If that is the case then why are they restricting the Mini to be used with a four tuner box? They should just allow the Mini to be used with two tuner boxes if you don't use a tuner with the Mini.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> If that is the case then why are they restricting the Mini to be used with a four tuner box? They should just allow the Mini to be used with two tuner boxes if you don't use a tuner with the Mini.


 Yes it's just stupid. If anything they could just impose restriction of no live TV on Mini with 2 tuner units as hosts and make that clear in product marketing, and that would be fine with potential buyers who otherwise would have no interest in the Mini.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

NotNowChief said:


> Even if you already have the 4-tuner Premiere, if I'm gonna have to pay over $100.00 bucks AND a subscription for a Mini, I will be buying a used HD or refurb Premiere.
> 
> I cannot believe they are dropping the ball SO BAD on this.


For those of us that need a tuning adapter, and want a clean installation on wall mounted TVs the Mini as a Set-Back box is a much cleaner solution, regardless of cost. IMO. But the 4 Tuner restriction will be a killer for many.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

CoxInPHX said:


> For those of us that need a tuning adapter, and want a clean installation on wall mounted TVs the Mini as a Set-Back box is a much cleaner solution, regardless of cost. IMO. But the 4 Tuner restriction will be a killer for many.


Tivo Premiere works fine mounted verticle on the back of a 40" tv. Had one mounted that way in our bedroom for years. The 'face' of the tivo is just below the bottom of the tv so that the IR sensor works. It does work just fine and uses a single cable for tv and network via moca. Very clean install as the thickness of the tivo is no more than the thickiness of the swing arm bracket.


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## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

So that was it for CES this year; just the Mini? Couldn't Tivo have just posted YT video of the box in action instead of bothering to book a room for such a low-key (but not low demand) product?

I wasn't expecting to hear about new hardware although I wouldn't be surprised if new hardware was discussed off the record. TiVo had to go to Vegas for some reason other than the Mini especially since got almost no new details about it. I at least expected to hear about the next software update for the Premiere.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah I expected a bit more as well. Even if it was just some bogus partnership anouncements that never came to life. 

Dan


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## videobruce (Nov 30, 2012)

Let me get this straight;
They want to charge you lifetime service to access a device that you already paid lifetime service for?? :down:


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

We don't have any idea what they're going to charge for it and how, but all that matters to me is the total cost. I don't care what they call it because I'm not paying monthly for anything from them.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah if the box is $50 and lifetime is $100 I think most people will be fine with the price. It's all a matter of context with the prices they charge. Although personally I expect the total cost to be at least $250. $100 for the box and $5/mo or $150 for lifetime. 

Dan


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> We don't have any idea what they're going to charge for it and how, but all that matters to me is the total cost. I don't care what they call it because I'm not paying monthly for anything from them.





Dan203 said:


> Yeah if the box is $50 and lifetime is $100 I think most people will be fine with the price. It's all a matter of context with the prices they charge. Although personally I expect the total cost to be at least $250. $100 for the box and $5/mo or $150 for lifetime.
> 
> Dan


I have said same thing so many times I have given up and just decided people like to bit** about the price even if they have no idea what it is going to be.

I also picked $250 as my guess for total cost.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep my guess is $250 too, and that's sad. It will not sell well to current owners at that price IMO.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep my guess is $250 too, and that's sad. It will not sell well to current owners at that price IMO.


I don't know. At 250 or 279 its approx 200 cheaper than a premiere for a second screen and it does not require renting a cable card for those still stuck with catv subscriptions.

So a bit cheaper and a few less features. Buyer will need to decide which way to go. Either way can work depending on what you want.

Can a mini access network resources like pytivo shares and HME apps?


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## JimPa (Oct 25, 2006)

Does anyone have any further information on the Tivo mentioned in this link?

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-05/tivo-premiere-successor-foreshadowed-2013/


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

jcthorne said:


> Can a mini access network resources like pytivo shares and HME apps?


 pyTivo shares would be a no. Remember pyTivo is HMO and copies programs (in either push or pull mode), so since Mini doesn't have a hard drive (and likely not much storage other than for the OS) it can't do that. Won't work with streambaby either since that also buffers the stream to TiVo as well (I would think for streambaby you could probably start the app and browse folders, but it would fail when attempting to start streaming a video). I would imagine it should work for things like the Flash based YouTube & Netflix apps though which don't buffer stream.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> ... Won't work with streambaby either since that also buffers the stream to TiVo as well (I would think for streambaby you could probably start the app and browse folders, but it would fail when attempting to start streaming a video). I would imagine it should work for things like the Flash based YouTube & Netflix apps though which don't buffer stream.


by "buffer" are you talking about a particular size?

I'm not following- doesn't ANYTHING that streams buffer some amount of data to deal with network hiccups or the like?

So if youtube and netflix (that both buffer- they even give messages sometimes about 'buffering')- why would the need for a buffer in streambaby matter?

somewhere I even though someone posted it will have 2GB memory with some amount (after deducting for the OS install) available to buffer. But i suppose i may have misread.

And again to deal with network hiccups wouldn't even premiere to mini streaming even need some amount of buffer?

Is it that streambaby builds a really large buffer that would be more than the (something less than) 2 GB available?

(I suspect it wont work either but more because Tivo wont bother completing the software to allow most 3rd party apps to work- rather than a lack of buffer).


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> somewhere I even though someone posted it will have 2GB memory with some amount (after deducting for the OS install) available to buffer. But i suppose i may have misread.
> 
> And again to deal with network hiccups wouldn't even premiere to mini streaming even need some amount of buffer?
> 
> Is it that streambaby builds a really large buffer that would be more than the (something less than) 2 GB available?


You didn't correctly interpret the 2GB reference. That was non-volatile storage (probably a flash drive of some sort). Buffering would be done in non-volatile RAM. However, your point still stands. I personally don't know how streambaby works. If it is truly just a stream that works with code that exists in the tivo, then if the mini has the code then it would probably work there as well.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Streambaby is not a stream. It actually saves content up to 1.1GB in size to the hard drive, so it's actually a copy residing on your TiVo. Only difference vs download is there is no entry saved to My Shows when you terminate the "stream". It works same way as the old HME based YouTube app that series 3 TiVos use which saves the entire stream to your TiVo. You can rew during playback and have instant access to what was already saved without having to re-stream that portion of the show. The play bar shows full show available when stream finishes.

True streaming solutions such as Netflix do have a small buffer for handling temporary network glitches, but probably on the order of a few MB, not GB since there are clients on devices with very minimal storage capability.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> Streambaby is not a stream. It actually saves content up to 1.1GB in size to the hard drive, so it's actually a copy residing on your TiVo. Only difference vs download is there is no entry saved to My Shows when you terminate the "stream". It works same way as the old HME based YouTube app that series 3 TiVos use which saves the entire stream to your TiVo. You can rew during playback and have instant access to what was already saved without having to re-stream that portion of the show. The play bar shows full show available when stream finishes.
> 
> True streaming solutions such as Netflix do have a small buffer for handling temporary network glitches, but probably on the order of a few MB, not GB since there are clients on devices with very minimal storage capability.


ahhhh- thanks for explaining to the clueless.


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