# Sky + gets a slating on Watchdog tonight



## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

The title says it all really.


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## mjk (Mar 13, 2002)

I sent them an e-mail suggesting they ask Sky why they won't support CAMs and provide some real consumer choice. ANd I suggested they as OfComm why they don't require this support in the same way as the US not requires CableCard support.

Perhaps if enough people mailed [email protected] they might consider it worth following up.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

I sent them this link, heheh:

http://www.nice-design.co.uk/blog/S...ow to fix faulty Sky+ without £65 callout fee

After scrolling down the blog for about half an hour, it gives an idea of the amount of problems people are experiencing 

Trouble is in my experience of emailing watchdog, you never get a response or anything checked into. I've tried in the past!


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

When I emailed watchdog with my Sky+ problems a few years ago. I did get a researcher call me, we spoke for a good 20 minutes on the phone. They wanted to use me on the program but I bottled it. I had concerns that the 120GB I had put in the unit was causing the issues I was having.. I hadn't told Watchdog that I had opened the unit. The problems I was having at the time were nothing to do with the HDD by the way.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

I've seen quite a bit of flack going Sky Pluses way just recently, and I am starting to wonder whether it was a wise decision for them to hi-jack the PVR technology in relation to the damage to the Brand it could / is causing. 

Maybe in hindsight it would have been better for them to have carried on endorsing partners so they could still embrace the technology without it directly affecting their brand as a media / broadcast company!


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

The software is licensed from NDS I think, not a sky product.

Could be wrong, don't know why the tivo/sky partnership failed. It could of been great, all I hear is TiVo in the states, they love it. I even saw a mention on Majornelsons page to set your tivo's the other day...


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

Isn't NDS a Sky company?

Maybe not, either way, it doesn't really matter, most people havent heard of NDS, the fact that Sky provides receivers with the PVR technology built in means most people regard the failings of the PVR in any shape or form to be a failing of the Sky service persay.


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## Tivo_noob (Jan 28, 2006)

Sky is for girls

Fact


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## Andy Leitch (Apr 30, 2005)

Tivo_noob said:


> Sky is for girls
> 
> Fact


Umm...I must be a girl then for having my TiVo fed by Sky Digital then. 

Seriously, somebody should YouTube that report and send it to TiVo execs in the States, and if they were on the ball and serious about the UK market, they'd surely want a slice of the dis-affected 1.5million Sky+ market share.

Perhaps a webpage would be enough??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/reports/services/services_20061114.shtml


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

healeydave said:


> Isn't NDS a Sky company?


From their website ...

_"NDS is traded on the NASDAQ and Euronext Brussels stock exchanges. Its largest shareholder is News Corporation, the global media and entertainment company."_

As near as dammit.


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## Tivo_noob (Jan 28, 2006)

Andy Leitch said:


> Umm...I must be a girl then for having my TiVo fed by Sky Digital then.


You said it not me


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I'll be having to do that soon, too 

I don't watch the dog. Has TW's TVD ever been on? I'll bet Tivo never has


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## OrangeDrink (Feb 10, 2004)

I'm down in New Zealand now, we have MySky down here, exactly the same boxes as Sky+ in the UK. I'm having many of the same problems. 

It records 2 channels at once on Sky and that's great but really that is it's only advantage over TiVo. It's rubbish in every other way.

Also whats the compression rates looking like up there these days? Sky Digital down here looks absolutely shockingly bad.


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## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> don't know why the tivo/sky partnership failed.


Probably because Sky were being paid to market and provide support for the Tivo at the same time as they were developing and releasing a competing product (Sky+).

It really isn't hard to guess how much effort they would put into it.

Besides which, few companies remain "partners" with Sky for long, and those that do generally have no option but to stay.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

The problem with Sky is that they don't accept that having a healthy and competitive marketplace is a good thing and expect to simply be a natural monopoly. And their arrogance is such that they believe massive marketing to a dumb and generally sheep like public can overcome all no matter how poor the product may actually be. The fact that many UK households cheerfully pay Sky £400 to £500 a year in program subs without thinking twice about it shows they may well be right.

All of us reading this thread should email Watchdog saying there is a PVR technology - Tivo - that works near perfectly and that all its customers are delighted with that is used massively across the USA and was also marketed here in the UK from 2000 to 2002 and is still running for those customers.

We should ask Watchdog to investigate why this brilliant PVR technology that actually works is being kept out of the UK by Sky's refusal to open up its encrypted broadcasts to interaction with integrated third party competitor PVR products. Watchdog count complaint numbers - if they get a lot of emails on something that then makes them interested. Of course something sensational that only a few viewers write in about can also sometimes interest them too.

Ofcom have just published an announcement of an interesting dispute that they will adjudicate on between Sky and Rapture Tv (a Free to Air music channel broadcast on Astra and receiveable by Sky boxes as it is in the Sky EPG) about Sky's EPG charges for FTA channels and whether they are fair and non discriminatory.

It is perfectly obvious that a large number of channels on Astra/DSat that start off being Free to Air end up being in the basic Sky subscription package because Sky makes an FTA EPG listing so punitively expensive but actually either offers the company an income stream or a free EPG listing if they agree to become part of the base Sky Mix subscription packages.

Let's hope that Ofcom end up saying Sky's charges are unfair and discriminatory. And surely Tivo could take a dispute to Ofcom for adjudication about Sky's refusal to provide access to any of their encrypted channel services using a CAM in a Tivo box.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

The only hope is that the much more TiVo-aware marketplace in the US will point out how stupid the replacement of the DirecTiVo with an NDS solution actually is. If they force NDS to come out with a more advanced product for the US market, then they may bring that back into the UK.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> The only hope is that the much more TiVo-aware marketplace in the US will point out how stupid the replacement of the DirecTiVo with an NDS solution actually is. If they force NDS to come out with a more advanced product for the US market, that may then come back into the UK.


The trouble is that people like the Murdochs have far too many friends in high places and far too much influence on the regulators who can't seem to see or don't want to see that many of their proposals are highly anti competitive.


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## Maclynn (Oct 6, 2000)

If they think the Sky+ software is bad Sky HD is ten times worse.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Isn't Sky HD still in Beta?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> Isn't Sky HD still in Beta?


Would that be the Beta with thousands of paying customers?


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

6022tivo said:


> Isn't Sky HD still in Beta?


According to Maclynn "If they think the Sky+ software is bad Sky HD is ten times worse."....

... it would appear that the SKY HD software is "Worsa" not "Beta"


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Maclynn said:


> If they think the Sky+ software is bad Sky HD is ten times worse.


Never had Sky+, but I've not had too many issue with SkyHD. A couple of vanishing scheduled recordings and faild recordings - which I gather is par for the course with Sky+ too.

I've kind of got used to the Sky+ interface now, but I would pay a large amount of money for a 30 second skip button or overshoot compensation.


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

Pete77 said:


> Would that be the Beta with thousands of paying customers?


Being beta doesn't _necessarily_ make it free, though I agree that a company launching a main product as beta would be very bad form, should it happen.

Remember - a certain other PVR did a beta release with paying customers a few years ago - everyone who was involved continued paying their subs (or didn't get a reduction in lifetime subscription).


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

I've had Sky+ since launch and Sky HD since launch - running both at present.

With Sky+, apart from the first few months of the expected problems - I've not had any real issues since. 

The only problem I really get is series links just ending mid-series.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ozsat said:


> The only problem I really get is series links just ending mid-series.


Rather a serious problem surely? Given the whole point of having a PVR in the first place.

I expect though you rely on your Tivo as a backup when the Sky boxes let you down?


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Just going back up to the Cam's issue and Sky not allowing hardware cams to be sold/used...

I know a linux Dreambox thingy can record Sky Digital programs, and the use of a software cam for Sky works fine.. Obviously you still need a subbed up paid skycard for use, but why can't someone use some modified tivo software on this box???

I am assuming you can not get some ond series one open source software for messing around with?


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

aerialplug said:


> Remember - a certain other PVR did a beta release with paying customers a few years ago - everyone who was involved continued paying their subs (or didn't get a reduction in lifetime subscription).


And they volunteered to be guinea pigs, and the beta was quite transparently a beta, which is quite different to how this has been handled, really.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> Rather a serious problem surely? Given the whole point of having a PVR in the first place.
> 
> I expect though you rely on your Tivo as a backup when the Sky boxes let you down?


The series links are data issued from the broadcaster (usually).

All recordings are done on TiVo - as a backup is required.


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

ozsat said:


> The series links are data issued from the broadcaster (usually).
> .


I was about to mention this. Having had some experience from the broadcaster end of how Sky+ works, you can't really blame Sky+ (usally) when the series links break as these are determined by the broadcaster themselves. If the broadcaster decides to change how they link to a peticular series is defined (which has been known to happen), the entire series link breaks and has to be re-initiated.

It's interesting to note also that series links aren't like TiVo season passes in that they point to specific showings of programmes. There's a different link for the morning showing of Neighbours compared to the afternoon showing with the result that Sky+ can't usually resort to a repeat showing in a different time slot if there's a clash.

Clashes however aren't as much of an issue if you have a proper twin tuner arrangement and padding that utilises the twin tuners.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

You can blame Sky for the design of the system though, which works by embedding the next broadcast date and time in the EPG entry for a show. Thus you can only ever see one episode ahead making it hard to spot problems such as clashes or failures, and making it impossible for it to chose alternate showings.

Strictly Come Dancing is the worst - a series link will pick up the dancing show and the results show, but the results show doesn't appear in the planner until the dancing show actually starts. It takes a brave man to trust the BBC to get it right...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

sanderton said:


> You can blame Sky for the design of the system though, which works by embedding the next broadcast date and time in the EPG entry for a show. Thus you can only ever see one episode ahead making it hard to spot problems such as clashes or failures, and making it impossible for it to chose alternate showings.


Yes given the cheap and nasty design of Series Link one can't really expect it to work any better but one can ask why Sky insisted on using such a poor quality system likely to undermine the whole good name of PVRs and so making them be seen as little better than an expanded capacity VCR.

Are Tivo's patents one reason why the alternative methods used by the opposition have to be so unreliable and poor quality by comparison?


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Don't think so; MCE works in a similar way to TiVo (actually a bit better as you can have cross channel and time specific SPs). TiVo's system is the most robust of all although it relies on hevaily processed data to work properly.


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