# TiVo to commence service in Australia & NZ



## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

From TiVo newsdesk email:-


> Seven Media Group, one of Australia's leading integrated media companies, and TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO), the creator of and a leader in digital video recorders, today announced that Seven will be bringing TiVo to Australia in 2008.
> 
> Under the mutually-exclusive agreement, Seven Media Group will lead the creation of the digital platform to enable TiVo's digital video recorder and service, including the award-winning TiVo user interface. The platform will be available for use by other broadcasters and broadband content owners to create a compelling, interactive, free to air digital terrestrial television offering. The TiVo(R) Service will be available across Australia and will include internationally recognized TiVo features like SeasonPass(TM) recordings and WishList(R) searches and allow users to access broadband content on their TV. Through its new partnership with TiVo, Seven will deploy TiVo's leading interactive advertising capabilities to develop new integrated interactive advertising strategies for their very substantial number of broadcast advertisers.
> "Every night, the vast majority of Australians turn to free to air broadcasters for their television entertainment. The Australian television market is on the cusp of a significant migration to digital television that will greatly expand the choices available on free-to-air television," said Tom Rogers, President and CEO of TiVo. "We are excited to play a key role in driving this transition by partnering with the top television network in the country to establish Seven's leadership of this transformation."
> ...


:up::up::up: Gotta be good news for the UK....


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> From TiVo newsdesk email:-:up::up::up: Gotta be good news for the UK....


I wouldn't go that far but I think there is at least some hope, especially with regards to the possible Virgin Media and V+ angle.

I can't see how Australia and especially NZ is cost effective for Tivo in view of the small population sizes. However I suppose their business partner is perhaps taking all the financial risk and underwriting the development costs?


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## cleudo (Apr 7, 2002)

Now if we could just get ITV to do the same....


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cleudo said:


> Now if we could just get ITV to do the same....


Ah the BBC and ITV HDTV project you mean. The trouble is that is subscription free so doesn't really work with Tivo.


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## mjk (Mar 13, 2002)

An interesting ethical dilemma for the Oz guys who pioneered rolling their own guide data.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mjk said:


> An interesting ethical dilemma for the Oz guys who pioneered rolling their own guide data.


Buy a TivoS3 with a sub for the HD telly and retire the S1 Tivo to backup service in the bedroom etc and their consciences will surely be clear.

After all it was never possible to buy the S1s with a sub so Tivo never lost any revenue. And I can't see any of the fanatical Oztivo mob being able to resist buying an offically distributed Tivo S3 as soon as it becomes available.


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## mini__me (Jun 11, 2002)

Not just Aus/NZ that has service outside of the USA

Stumbled accross these the other day:

http://www.tgc-taiwan.com.tw/

http://www.tgc-china.com.cn/

I knew that there was a plan for TiVo in these areas but hadn't realized they were out already!!


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

And Mexico city...

Seems like we're being left out in the cold


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> And Mexico city...
> 
> Seems like we're being left out in the cold


Because Tivo perceive that the two Murdochs (Rupert and James) are utterly ruthless monopolists who will use any means at all, whether fair or foul, to stop Tivo becoming established in the UK.

Tivo doesn't have deep enough pockets for a direct head on battle with the Murdochs and Newscorp. Only Richard Branson has those - hence the V+ Tivo software angle being the only viable possibility for a Tivo relaunch in the UK.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> And Mexico city...
> 
> Seems like we're being left out in the cold


It's always more tempting as a business to go after virgin markets than revisit one where you've already failed, especially one where in the interim your competitors have acquired an unassailable position.


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## mini__me (Jun 11, 2002)

mjk said:


> An interesting ethical dilemma for the Oz guys who pioneered rolling their own guide data.


More interesting is the dilemma for us.....do we become the new Aus/NZ....importing their machines and rolling our own guide data...


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## mjk (Mar 13, 2002)

I didn't think of that! An interesting question. As the possessor of 2 lifetime subscriptions, it is arguable that it wouldn't be service theft as long as I retired the old systems.

Alternatively, how about petitioning TiVo to allow Aus/NZ machines to be subscribed in the UK?


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Do we use the same HD standard as them?

Or would that be a non-issue?


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

mini__me said:


> More interesting is the dilemma for us.....do we become the new Aus/NZ....importing their machines and rolling our own guide data...


Perhaps TiVo Inc. will absolve you from having to face that dilemma and lock down the machines so hard you will not be able to roll your own.


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## mini__me (Jun 11, 2002)

Raisltin Majere said:


> Do we use the same HD standard as them?
> 
> Or would that be a non-issue?


I'll be honest I have only skimmed the article posted, but couldn't see that it mentioned HD only DVB-T.



pgogborn said:


> Perhaps TiVo Inc. will absolve you from having to face that dilemma and lock down the machines so hard you will not be able to roll your own.


In some ways I hope that they do, will probably save me hours of my life


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

mini__me said:


> More interesting is the dilemma for us.....do we become the new Aus/NZ....importing their machines and rolling our own guide data...


Oooh, now there's a thought. Aus use PAL, but are their DVB standards compatible?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Oooh, now there's a thought. Aus use PAL, but are their DVB standards compatible?


But aren't the S3 boxed totally locked down and unhackable from that point of view?

Surely that's why the OzTivoers use Tivo S1 models for their roll your own activities?


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## Anndra (Oct 12, 2004)

mjk said:


> Alternatively, how about petitioning TiVo to allow Aus/NZ machines to be subscribed in the UK?


YESYESYES! Let's do that! If there was a company to take up the reigns of 'Official Importer', we would have some warranty support too...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Anndra said:


> YESYESYES! Let's do that! If there was a company to take up the reigns of 'Official Importer', we would have some warranty support too...


What we really need is for Tivo to launch in aother EU country and they would then be in some difficulty under the EU open markets legislation if they refused to sell the units to or provide some means of UK guide service to UK customers. Especially UK customers who already had a relationship with Tivo through their ownership of Tivo S1 products.


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

Australia will use the DVB-T system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_terrestrial_television#Analogue_to_digital_transition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_television_in_Australia


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## mjk (Mar 13, 2002)

That looks like good news. And for those of us who primarily use Sky as their platform, it doesn't really matter anyway, as long as there is still an RGB input and the ability to control an external STB.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Having got used to a dual-tuner MCE setup, I can't see that I would ever buy a single-tuner TiVo, however new the model. To me, two (or even three) Freeview tuners are essential, with the added ability to digitally stream the recordings and music to other rooms. MCE currently has it (together with Xbox 360 extenders), and the TiVo is still miles away.


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## The Obo (Feb 22, 2005)

On my last trip back home to New Zealand my brother had recently got "My SKY" - which as far as I could tell is exactly the same box as SKY+ here.

This atricle mentions HD:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/home-the...ng-to-australia/2007/05/30/1180205307765.html


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> Having got used to a dual-tuner MCE setup, I can't see that I would ever buy a single-tuner TiVo, however new the model. To me, two (or even three) Freeview tuners are essential, with the added ability to digitally stream the recordings and music to other rooms. MCE currently has it (together with Xbox 360 extenders), and the TiVo is still miles away.


Surely the latest US Tivos have dual tuners and that is what they will be launching in NZ?

Indeed the Scientific Atlanta box that Virgin distribute as V+ and which could run Tivo's cable box software has three tuners on board.

So where does Iankb's suggestion that new Tivos can only handle one program at a time come from?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

The Obo said:


> On my last trip back home to New Zealand my brother had recently got "My SKY" - which as far as I could tell is exactly the same box as SKY+ here.
> 
> This atricle mentions HD:
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/home-the...ng-to-australia/2007/05/30/1180205307765.html


Forum member OrangeDrink, who used to live here and have a Tivo and who has moved to NZ and joined the OzTivoing set, confirmed to me at some point in our discussion that MySky is indeed a Sky+ box with a much reduced channel lineup compared to Sky+ UK (although ironically of course making the timeshifting properties of a MySky box therefore even more essential and beneficial)

There must be a website for it somewhere..


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## mjk (Mar 13, 2002)

iankb said:


> Having got used to a dual-tuner MCE setup, I can't see that I would ever buy a single-tuner TiVo, however new the model. To me, two (or even three) Freeview tuners are essential, with the added ability to digitally stream the recordings and music to other rooms. MCE currently has it (together with Xbox 360 extenders), and the TiVo is still miles away.


I have 2 TiVos (1 Sky, 1 Freeview), and 2 VISTA Media Center machines (again, 1 Sky, 1 Freeview). They are all currently single tuner systems. I still find TiVo much better in terms of usability than MCE.

I very rarely actually need multiple tuners, but perhaps I have a strange viewing pattern. I am much more likely to be recording the same thing twice as backup!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Aus uses DVB-T 8k 64QAM - same as us - so could be a goer.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Aus uses DVB-T 8k 64QAM - same as us - so could be a goer.


Can they also handle our 16QAM Muxes. Which are in fact how 4 out of the present 6 DTT Muxes currently broadcast.


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## SteveA (Oct 30, 2000)

Raisltin Majere said:


> Do we use the same HD standard as them?
> 
> Or would that be a non-issue?


Aus HD is MPEG2, we are MPEG4.


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## Anndra (Oct 12, 2004)

SteveA said:


> Aus HD is MPEG2, we are MPEG4.


That doesn't mean the TiVo box couldn't handle both, does it?


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Can they also handle our 16QAM Muxes. Which are in fact how 4 out of the present 6 DTT Muxes currently broadcast.


By switchover everything should be 64QAM and 8K
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/pods1/main/statement/statement.pdf
(S4 and S6 in the exec summary)


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Anndra said:


> That doesn't mean the TiVo box couldn't handle both, does it?


MPEG4 is a leap on in technology and much more expensive to do; very unlikely to have built that in if it wasn't going to be used.


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## jonphil (Aug 7, 2002)

It does at least indicate that Tivo are interested in area's other than the US. Maybe they don't feel that they can compete with the likes of Sky+ and V+ when they have everything integrated in. Maybe they should team up with some of the non Sky box manufacturers as other boxes are available which 'can' be used with Sky (or so I'm lead to believe)

I do think we should remind Tivo that the UK market does exist. One problem with importing from Aus / NZ will be if the boxes are ROHS compliant otherwise we will struggle to get them past customs. (Same thing happened with Zensonic media streaming boxes which had to rebrand the boxes and change the model number to then get through certification, after removing all lead content from the box).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

jonphil said:


> One problem with importing from Aus / NZ will be if the boxes are ROHS compliant


What is that exactly?


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## CarlWalters (Oct 17, 2001)

Restriction Of Hazardous Substances - basically lead-free Component and PCB manufacturing. For the full fascinating story check out this - guaranteed to cure insomnia


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## jonphil (Aug 7, 2002)

New European rules on electronic equipment. All designs have to be submitted for approval before things can be imported into Europe.
It goes as extreme as the amount of lead used in the solder on the boards. It covers lots of things and I understand that it is putting off a lot of companies off launching products in Europe. ROHS stands for "Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive"

RoHS is often referred to as the lead-free directive, but it restricts the use of the following six substances:

1. Lead
2. Mercury
3. Cadmium
4. Hexavalent chromium (chromium VI or Cr6+)
5. Polybrominated biphenyls (PBB)
6. Polybrominated diphenyl ether (PBDE)

PBB and PBDE are flame retardants used in some plastics.

As a lot of these maybe used in Electronics you can understand the problem.

Not wanting to get into a debate about ROHS compliance as I don't fully understand it.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

jonphil said:


> New European rules on electronic equipment. All designs have to be submitted for approval before things can be imported into Europe.
> It goes as extreme as the amount of lead used in the solder on the boards. It covers lots of things and I understand that it is putting off a lot of companies off launching products in Europe. ROHS stands for "Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive"


It sounds like a cunning wease to secretly erect tariff barriers to non EU goods if you ask me.

It didn't seem to stop some dodgy Chinese guy (from the name) based in the UK selling me a cheap replacement mains adapter on Ebay for my HP Pavilion notebook that did initially work but came with a weird tiny UK mains plug with just the 3 UK pins and a very small plug back with no fuse in it.

After 2 weeks of using it (at the correct voltage as it had a slider on the side) it stopped working and when I then picked up the power block and began shaking it there was a fut and a flash the lead between the block and the PC burst open and in to flames. Definitely completely illegal and totally disregarding the above checks as it said made in China, although showed an undoubtedly forged EU approval sign.

I now have a Targus universal notebook adapater that Staples was selling for an incredible £19.94 in the shop. PC World was charging £70 for the same item on the same day.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

CarlWalters said:


> Restriction Of Hazardous Substances - basically lead-free Component and PCB manufacturing. For the full fascinating story check out this - guaranteed to cure insomnia


Hey I thought you were Ignoring me. Or at least that's what you said. 

It seems the only ones of consequence ignoring me are in fact iankb and TCM, who was only doing it to show solidarity. 

Now I find that both you and Eric are still reading my posts.


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## jonphil (Aug 7, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> It sounds like a cunning wease to secretly erect tariff barriers to non EU goods if you ask me.


I agree it sounds like another stealth TAX.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

jonphil said:


> I agree it sounds like another stealth TAX.


More a question of a total block on trade as unless you plan to sell more than x hundred thousand units in to the EU it just isn't going to be worth going through all the hassle.


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## CarlWalters (Oct 17, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> It seems the only ones of consequence ignoring me are in fact iankb and TCM, who was only doing it to show solidarity.
> 
> Now I find that both you and Eric are still reading my posts.


"The only ones of consequence" - you really do like to argue to annoy other people rather than to contribute to an intellegent debate don't you.

I try to fill in some of the gaps in your knowledge and that's what happens 

OK have it your way - you're ignored again. Happy now?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Carl,

I was grateful for your post about RHOS items, which was informative, and I'm sorry if you took any offence at any previous comments I have made. By the only ones of consequence I meant the only forum members who make a lot of posts in the forum who seem to have used Ignore. I didn't mean that those who post less frequently don't make useful contributions when clearly they do.

The only point I was making about Ignore is that it is a frustrating function as you still get to see half the debate in a thread without knowing precisely why or how it started.

No doubt that is probably why you at least temporarily recanted on your original decision to use it?


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

jonphil said:


> New European rules on electronic equipment. All designs have to be submitted for approval before things can be imported into Europe.


No you don't have to submit anything. You just to ensure that any product you put on the matket within the EU is RoHS compliant, doesn't matter where you get it from.

In fact the Chinese are very ahead in this game as they have a more stringent version of RoHS coming into force soon, with California not far behind (Jan 2008). California is so important as its 1/5 of the US market so will probably force the whole of US to be RoHS compliant.

I would be very surpised if the NZ/Australian TiVo is not RoHS compliant, its not hard to do, in fact with most assemblers in UK/Taiwan/China its getting harder to get stuff assembled with leaded solder as if you want a product for world wide market it makes sense to make it RoHS compliant.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Pete77 said:


> It seems the only ones of consequence ignoring me are in fact iankb ...


Pete, given ozsat's warning, I have switched you back on for the moment; in the hope that either you will become less upsetting, or you get banned. Either way will suit me. 

Apologies to other users for this O/T post.


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## Anndra (Oct 12, 2004)

mjk said:


> Alternatively, how about petitioning TiVo to allow Aus/NZ machines to be subscribed in the UK?


Well, I've sent my e-mail, let's see if it does any good.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

mjk said:


> I have 2 TiVos (1 Sky, 1 Freeview), and 2 VISTA Media Center machines (again, 1 Sky, 1 Freeview). They are all currently single tuner systems. I still find TiVo much better in terms of usability than MCE.


I have a dual tuner Freeview MCE setup, and the control of two tuners within the same UI is a massive advantage; especially with the handling of conflicts, where you can choose which two of three, etc, to record.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> Pete, given ozsat's warning, I have switched you back on for the moment; in the hope that either you will become less upsetting, or you get banned. Either way will suit me.
> 
> Apologies to other users for this O/T post.


OK ian understood. I'm genuinely sorry if I have annoyed you in particular in some of my posts as I know there have also been moments of helpful interaction between us in the past.

To be honest I don't think the Ignore function really works too well for an actively involved forum regular as you then see a trail of discussion some of which you can't account for as you can't see it. It probably does work for those who occasionally scan the forum for useful info about Tivos but don't want to be bothered by the posting style of some individuals.

Anyway no more on this issue other than can someone perhaps tell TCM he is the only regular poster left ignoring me since on his own admission he was never actually bothered about my posts as he rather enjoyed the opportunity to correct them.  I assume if someone is Ignoring me that this also includes PMs from me too?

But rest assured I will try to direct my efforts towards enlightenment and understanding in the forum rather than any form of confrontation or argument going forwards.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I'm not Ignoring you Pete, I'm ignoring you (lower case i).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I'm not Ignoring you Pete, I'm ignoring you (lower case i).


OK understood. You suggested UK General Chit Chat for those other types of discussion I believe. 

In any event this seems to prove that most people find using the real Ignore function more frustrating than it is actually beneficial. I suspect the lower case form of ignore is probably actually a great deal more effective.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Interesting development (Hi there - been away from the board for a while for various reasons)

Here are some related thoughts (which are to the best of my knowledge correct but happy to be corrected)

Australia and the UK both use DVB-T - though Aus uses VHF as well as UHF for analogue TV (and I suspect may do the same for DVB-T) - the UK is VHF only. The UK also uses a different channel spacing.

The UK currently uses 24Mbs and 18Mbs 64QAM and 16QAM with 2k carriers - though the BBC HD trial is using 8k carriers - and the plan is for all UK muxes to move to 8k from 2k post analogue switch-off. Most chipsets and DVB-T implementations (apart from early Philips DVB-T boxes) can cope with all of these - and unless a very rigid tuning scheme has been implemented, they can often cope with varying channel spacings as well - so an SD DVB-T tuner/demodulator should work in the UK if it works in Aus (vice versa might not because UK tuners don't all support VHF)

Aussie DVB-T is in a mix of 576/50i SD MPEG2, 576/50p HD MPEG2 (an Aussie quirk) and 1080/50i HD MPEG2 - and they can also include AC3 audio with HD broadcasts, MP2 for SD. I believe the Aussie implementation is 8k - not sure whether they use 64 or 16 QAM or what FEC they use - however unless poorly implemented most receiver configurations should cope with most things.

UK DVB-T is a mix of 576/50i SD MPEG2 (with MP2 audio) and the BBC HD trial is 1080/50i MPEG4 H264 with AC3 audio only.

If the Aussie Tivo is a US Series 3 without cablecard support and with a DVB-T rather than ATSC tuner(s) then it might work in the UK for SD (and wouldn't it be great if the UK subscriptions worked on it...) However it is unlikely to be worth considering for HD as it is unlikely to support HD MPEG4 H264 decoding (MPEG2 decoding hardware won't and software decoding requires a LOT of power) and anyway the BBC DVB-T HD trial is London only and likely to end at the end of the license period. If the BBC get approval for the BBC HD service it is initially likely to be Sat and possibly cable but not terrestrial until analogue switch off - and that will depend on the outcome of the Digital Dividend Review.

Think I read that the S3 supported H264 - but wasn't sure if this was HD and included all the extensions (MBAFF etc.) that the Beeb are using.


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## Milhouse (Sep 15, 2001)

In the Series 3, are the CableCard decoders modular or built in to the motherboard? If modular, could a US Series 3 be adapted to the Aussie/UK market by replacing CableCard modules with FreeView or FreeSat tuners and tweaking the software and power supply accordingly?

I know this question sounds terribly naiive, but you know... desperate for a new TiVo!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Sneals2000 said:


> Aussie DVB-T is in a mix of 576/50i SD MPEG2, 576/50p HD MPEG2 (an Aussie quirk) and 1080/50i HD MPEG2 - and they can also include AC3 audio with HD broadcasts, MP2 for SD. I believe the Aussie implementation is 8k - not sure whether they use 64 or 16 QAM or what FEC they use - however unless poorly implemented most receiver configurations should cope with most things.


It's 64 QAM, and the FEC varies from city to city.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> It's 64 QAM, and the FEC varies from city to city.


OnDigital only used 64QAM and 2k but then it turned out the old OnDigital boxes could also handle 16QAM too when the BBC and Crown Castle switched to using that system to make the signal more robust.

I think most of the DVB-T tuners can handle quite a wide range of broadcast formats.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Milhouse said:


> In the Series 3, are the CableCard decoders modular or built in to the motherboard? If modular, could a US Series 3 be adapted to the Aussie/UK market by replacing CableCard modules with FreeView or FreeSat tuners and tweaking the software and power supply accordingly?
> 
> I know this question sounds terribly naiive, but you know... desperate for a new TiVo!


You may be slightly misunderstanding what a Cablecard is. It is a conditional access module - not a receiver. It is similar to the TopUpTV modules that go into UK IDTVs and some set-top boxes. It decrypts an encrypted signal - but the signal has to be received and demodulated first.

Effectively the Tivo contains cable tuners and QAM demodulators for cable (alongside 8VSB demodulators for digital terrestrial). The Cablecard generates the decryption signals for the demodulated signal, but doesn't actually receive or demodulate the signal itself.

It MAY be that the entire videostream passes through the cablecard (or it may be that the card just sends the right digital codes to a decryption circuit in the main Tivo) so could be replaced by a separate stream injected via the cablecard - but then stuff like tuning etc. would need to be done somehow. The Cablecard itself in a standard US model is not used for tuning or demodulating though - that happens upstream of the card.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> OnDigital only used 64QAM and 2k but then it turned out the old OnDigital boxes could also handle 16QAM too when the BBC and Crown Castle switched to using that system to make the signal more robust.
> 
> I think most of the DVB-T tuners can handle quite a wide range of broadcast formats.


Yep - but the early ONDigital boxes - certainly Philips models - are definitely 2k only and not 8k - which was demonstrated during the tests prior to Freeview launching. (And was known about as the original chipsets were 2k only - they were developed under very tight time constraints to hit launch dates)

They can cope with different FECs and different QAM levels, but not the two different carrier formats. (2k uses fewer carriers at a higher individual symbol rate and thus with shorter guard bands. 8k uses a lot more carriers at lower individual symbol rates and thus has much larger guard bands - so large in fact that you can use repeater transmitters on the same frequency to re-inforce a signal - so called "single frequency network" operation with 8k - which is why it is preferred to 2k - and used in most areas that DVB-T was introduced to later)


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Indeed, Aus uses SFNs.


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## Milhouse (Sep 15, 2001)

Sneals2000 said:


> You may be slightly misunderstanding what a Cablecard is. It is a conditional access module - not a receiver. It is similar to the TopUpTV modules that go into UK IDTVs and some set-top boxes. It decrypts an encrypted signal - but the signal has to be received and demodulated first.
> 
> Effectively the Tivo contains cable tuners and QAM demodulators for cable (alongside 8VSB demodulators for digital terrestrial). The Cablecard generates the decryption signals for the demodulated signal, but doesn't actually receive or demodulate the signal itself.
> 
> It MAY be that the entire videostream passes through the cablecard (or it may be that the card just sends the right digital codes to a decryption circuit in the main Tivo) so could be replaced by a separate stream injected via the cablecard - but then stuff like tuning etc. would need to be done somehow. The Cablecard itself in a standard US model is not used for tuning or demodulating though - that happens upstream of the card.


Ah, so it's like those Common Interface slots you find in some TVs - not a decoder at all. That sucks... It's a shame the S3 doesn't have modular decrypt/decode/demodulate hardware, it would make the box more suitable for a global market.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Milhouse said:


> Ah, so it's like those Common Interface slots you find in some TVs - not a decoder at all. That sucks... It's a shame the S3 doesn't have modular decrypt/decode/demodulate hardware, it would make the box more suitable for a global market.


Yep - it is pretty similar to the CAMs that fit into CI slots on most satellite, and some cable and terrestrial receivers and IDTVs.

The problem with modular systems is that they are expensive to implement - integration is much cheaper. (The smaller you make a printed circuit board the cheaper it is - and this is a significant cost) Having multiple tuner/demodulator, conditional access modules on the input side, and multiple video codec modules for the output side would be hideously expensive if they were implemented as discrete hardware devices on separate PCBs or daughter boards.

Demodulation is a choice of :
DVB-T
DVB-S
DVB-S2
DVB-C

QAM
8VSB

Decryption is a choice of:
DVB CI/CAM
CableCard

Decoding is a choice of:
MPEG2 SD
MPEG2 HD
MPEG4 H264 SD (in France?)
MPEG4 H264 HD

Oh - and you need analogue terrestrial + PAL/NTSC decoding, analogue RGB baseband, and MPEG2 SD encoding for legacy stuff.

Factor in all those combinations (with multiple tuner variants) - and the fact that decoding is not related to demodulation and decryption - as it happens on playback not recording. (In theory decryption in some systems can happen on replay - which is why dual tuner Sky+ boxes only need one CAM and card) and all the software and implementation variations and you end up with a very complicated system.

For a Tivo box to do well in the UK it probably needs dual DVB-T tuners, analogue RGB input and analogue off-air tuners.

For a Tivo box to do well in the wider Europe it probably needs additional DVB-S tuners and CAM/CI support, and Diseq multple LNB (or motorised dish) support.

For a Tivo box to do well in the US it needs analogue off-air, QAM cable with optional cablecard, and ATSC 8VSB.

I suspect the only way that Tivo will ever do brilliantly is if they license their core software more readily to hardware manufacturers who can build decent hardware for their intended market.

I'd buy a Humax or Topfield Freeview PVR with Tivo software.

What would be a really cool approach would be a Tivo software model that allowed me to install Tivo on a PC box running Linux, with the USB or PCI tuner and decoder cards of my choice.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

A freeview tivo doesn't need analogue input - or the expense of an mpeg encoder that goes with it.

It would need to be under £200 to really compete. There are twin tuner PVRs for £100 (daewoo 9502 is good one).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> A freeview tivo doesn't need analogue input - or the expense of an mpeg encoder that goes with it.


Totally agree about analogue being a dead duck and pointless extra cost with analogue switchover complete in 2012. No one still content with only five channels is now in the market for a technologically sophisticated product like a Tivo.

But a UK Tivo does need to cope with DVB-S so that between now and 2012 the many people without a satisfactory Freeview signal can go for Freesat instead on their Tivo.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

mikerr said:


> A freeview tivo doesn't need analogue input - or the expense of an mpeg encoder that goes with it.
> 
> It would need to be under £200 to really compete. There are twin tuner PVRs for £100 (daewoo 9502 is good one).


Yep - though it depends whether the cost saving of losing the analogue MPEG2 encoder needed for Sky (whether RGB, Composite or RF via analogue tuner) and cable alongside Freeview is offset by the cost of having two boxes. Or Tivo could accept that Sky and Cable have proprietary PVR solutions and thus Freeview only machines would be worth it.

I agree that a £200 price ceiling for a decent capacity (160-250Gb) dual-tuner Freeview box is about right. After all the US Series 3 Tivo can now be bought for around $400 (which is about the same amount) if you buy via the right route and with the right rebates.

If Tivo also provided the full functionality of S2 and S3 Tivos on a UK Freeview model (not massively different from an Aus Freeview model - though we wouldn't need HD MPEG2 decoding) then it could be a neat solution.

I loved my Tivo - but I realised I was watching it less, and less, and less once I got a decent Media Center set-up with dual tuners, and RGB connectivity to my TV (initially via VGA to RGB SCART cable, then via an XBox 360 networked to the MCE PC)

Now I've gone HD and Sky+ HD is the only solution (Though my MCE PC is still in service for basic non-HD stuff)


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## mjk (Mar 13, 2002)

For those of us who want a bit more than Freeview, it either needs analogue input as now or a (not officially existent) Sky CAM.

The current monopoly on Sky STBs is a scandal and very anti-competitive. There are ways around it, but they could be rendered inoperative at any minute if Sky change their encoding scheme, and also they require the viewing card to be put into a "real" sky box regularly to phone home.

Essentially, this is a political problem, not a technical one, and as long as politicians are scared of the Murdoch media empire, then it is unlikely to be solved.

This is just as much a problem for Microsoft as it is for TiVo.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Anyone seen the reports today that BT Vision, Virgin Media, TopUp TV etc. are calling on an investigation into Sky and its potential monopoly with regard to it both running channels (which it also provides to other platform operators) and running its own platform.

The closed platform argument is interesting. AIUI in theory European rules suggest that Sky's encryption system should be open to allow other receiver manufacturers to support it - but in practise almost all encryption systems that have complied with this have been hacked wide open - whilst Sky's is still reasonably secure (even the reverse engineered CAMs used in some DVB-S Windows Media Center and CI slot standalone systems require a valid subscription and are not used to defraud Sky from subscription revenue - or even Sky+ revenue now that Sky+ is going to be free for all except Freesat users)

DirecTV have announced their closed platform will be opened up to PC users at some point - presumably hoping that Vista's DRM will be strong enough to protect it (and DirecTV were linked to Sky by common parent company ownership until recently I believe?) - though I suspect the hacking of HD-DVD and BluRay AACS encryption may have worried some...


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Sneals2000 said:


> I loved my Tivo - but I realised I was watching it less, and less, and less once I got a decent Media Center set-up with dual tuners, and RGB connectivity to my TV (initially via VGA to RGB SCART cable, then via an XBox 360 networked to the MCE PC)
> 
> Now I've gone HD and Sky+ HD is the only solution (Though my MCE PC is still in service for basic non-HD stuff)


Snap.

I don't see why the government/EU couldn't madate Sky to support the likes of DragonCAM though; it hasn't led to videoGuard being hacked.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I don't see why the government/EU couldn't madate Sky to support the likes of DragonCAM though; it hasn't led to videoGuard being hacked.


There is no reason other than Rupert and James Murdoch having too many important friends in high places (both regulators and ministers) they are able to lean on in order to preserve their monopolistic system.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

In the UK, I'd accept the paranoid corruption angle might have some merit, but the Murdoch's reach in Europe (which would almost certainly be the source of any such mandate) is rather limited. They have a presence it Italy I believe, but in general have nothing like the dominance they have in the UK.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> In the UK, I'd accept the paranoid corruption angle might have some merit, but the Murdoch's reach in Europe (which would almost certainly be the source of any such mandate) is rather limited. They have a presence it Italy I believe, but in general have nothing like the dominance they have in the UK.


I was only referring to the UK.

Clearly there is no problem with monopolistic domination of broadcasting by Newscorp in other EU countries.

So all the more reason why the EU may be brave enough to act while the UK regulator and government will continue to lack the necessary gumption. :down:


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Let's hope so, although I'm not holding my breath....


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## marvin_pa (Feb 9, 2003)

Hi all,

Been a v.long time between posts here - anyway the aussie media speculates that the Tivo will cost us Ozzies AU$400 and around AU$10 per month subscription.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/busin...o-outfox-foxtel/2007/06/15/1181414546428.html

FYI- Foxtel is the Aussie name for Sky.

There certainly is a dilemma over at OzTivo given the huge number of imported Tivo's - last time I read it was over a 1000, although these days the guide data is being used to supply a number of PVR's not just the Tivo.

I think it might be time to sell of the analogue Tivo's while the going is good and start saving to a digital one ...


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

marvin_pa said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Been a v.long time between posts here - anyway the aussie media speculates that the Tivo will cost us Ozzies AU$400 and around AU$10 per month subscription.


Is it just me that thinks the numeric value stays the same and only the currency symbol changes ?

AU$10 is only £4.25 yet the UK subscription is £10


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

Yey! Roll on Swedish TiVo then (10 SEK would be about 75p)


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

katman said:


> Is it just me that thinks the numeric value stays the same and only the currency symbol changes ?
> 
> AU$10 is only £4.25 yet the UK subscription is £10


A similar thing happens with many goods that originate from the US (or where the US is the main market), and in our case it's one of the few situations where it's not a good thing to have one of the lowest denominated currencies... :down: 

There are only a few places that would be worse off than the UK on this basis - eg. Malta (equiv £15.70) or Kuwait (£17.42) 

But if you want a really cheap TiVo sub, petition TiVo to offer a service in Vietnam, where 10 Vietnamese Dong is worth just £0.00031


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> But if you want a really cheap TiVo sub, petition TiVo to offer a service in Vietnam, where 10 Vietnamese Dong is worth just £0.00031


WOW !!!!!

At that price you could have 3 Tivos with lifetime subscriptions for under 2 pence !!!


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

katman said:


> WOW !!!!!
> 
> At that price you could have 3 Tivos with lifetime subscriptions for under 2 pence !!!


But you would probally have to work a Year just to make that much


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

marvin_pa said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Been a v.long time between posts here - anyway the aussie media speculates that the Tivo will cost us Ozzies AU$400 and around AU$10 per month subscription.


AU $10 a Month is cheaper than the US Subscription. Most pay $12.95 US for a Three Year Term. That would be about $8.85 US.

But:

$400 AU = $383 US for a Tivo unit. Now if we were talking a Series 3, then good deal. But for a Series 1 or even 2 (depending on what they get, probally a Series 1) NO WAY!

So cheaper Monthly Price, but a larger up front cost.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

wolflord11 said:


> AU $10 a Month is cheaper than the US Subscription. Most pay $12.95 US for a Three Year Term. That would be about $8.85 US.
> 
> But:
> 
> ...


I believe its the TiVo HD unit.

Also check out this recent news article stating that TiVo service will be available for launch in 8 weeks!
http://business.brisbanetimes.com.au/seven-primed-for-digital-assault/20080130-1p3q.html


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

wolflord11 said:


> But for a Series 1 or even 2 (depending on what they get, probally a Series 1) NO WAY!


One of the reasons that the Series 1 failed in the UK was that it was too expensive to manufacture; because of its old technology. Apart from anything else, they would probably have problems finding the board components, and the production lines to manufacture it on. The original video-encoding chip probably cost more than the whole cost of a Series 3.

Because of the endless march of technology, each model should be cheaper to manufacture; the additional facilities being mainly in firmware, and relatively cost-free.


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