# Its not A HR10-250



## unclebrownie (Dec 31, 2001)

Well the Hr20-700 is not a smart DVR like Tivo HR10-250 , set it to record (from the guide) two shows first run only & keep only 2 shows but what does it do it records the shows that say (in the guide) repeat .The remote does not set up as easy as Tivo & of course no DLB is a PIA .The Native is a + as is the Active mode but am glad i did not give up my HR10-250.
unclebrownie


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Blame the guide data not the DVR. It doesn't matter if the guide shows "repeat", the unit uses data not visible in the description to determine suitability for recording. The HR10 has the same problem. 

As for the other concerns you have, there's another forum for complaints and questions.


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## unclebrownie (Dec 31, 2001)

If it was the guide data then why did my HR10-250 NOT record the same shows ??


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

unclebrownie said:


> Well the Hr20-700 is not a smart DVR like Tivo HR10-250 , set it to record (from the guide) two shows first run only & keep only 2 shows but what does it do it records the shows that say (in the guide) repeat .The remote does not set up as easy as Tivo & of course no DLB is a PIA .The Native is a + as is the Active mode but am glad i did not give up my HR10-250.
> unclebrownie


Build a bridge.... "get over it"


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Poor functionality*
of the HR20-700 compared to the HR10-250 is well documented. Since the HR20 is the only game going forward by receiving MPEG4 signals, it is your tolerance for the inferior product that DirecTV is testing...


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## unclebrownie (Dec 31, 2001)

reh523 said:


> Build a bridge.... "get over it"


What else could i expect from someone who lives in PHOENIX AZ .


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## Sirshagg (Dec 27, 2001)

unclebrownie said:


> If it was the guide data then why did my HR10-250 NOT record the same shows ??


The HR20 has a bug where it records the episode you selected when you setup the series link no matter if that episode matches the series link options.


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## unclebrownie (Dec 31, 2001)

JJ said:


> *Poor functionality*
> of the HR20-700 compared to the HR10-250 is well documented. Since the HR20 is the only game going forward by receiving MPEG4 signals, it is your tolerance for the inferior product that DirecTV is testing...


You are very right on that point,
unclebrownie


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Sirshagg said:


> The HR20 has a bug where it records the episode you selected when you setup the series link no matter if that episode matches the series link options.


Actually it is not a bug... it depends on how you setup the recording.

If you use the R button to set it up in the guide.

The first press setups up the single record...
The 2nd press setups up the Series Link, but doesn't un-do the setup of the first R.

As since it doesn't matter if you hit the R's with in seconds of one another...or a week, the functionality remains the same....

If you use the INFO->Record All menu option, then you shouldn't get the first episode to recrod.

And to the OP... what show?


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

I wonder how long unclebrowneye has had the Hr20-700 ?

A day or so ?

It's different than the HR10-250 TiVo unit, but I didn't have to much trouble getting used to it.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Stanley Rohner said:


> I wonder how long unclebrowneye has had the Hr20-700 ?
> 
> A day or so ?
> 
> It's different than the HR10-250 TiVo unit, but I didn't have to much trouble getting used to it.


It just shows that we all have a different tolerance for pain


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> it is not a bug...


... and Nixon was not a crook ... and Clinton did not have sex with that woman.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Redux said:


> ... and Nixon was not a crook ... and Clinton did not have sex with that woman.


So... mis-understanding how the feature works... makes it a bug....

Okay... No wonder you all think the HR20 is so buggy...
You still think it is a TiVo, and if doesn't work the way that the other product works, or how you expect it to work... it is a bug...


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## unclebrownie (Dec 31, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Actually it is not a bug... it depends on how you setup the recording.
> 
> If you use the R button to set it up in the guide.
> 
> ...


Did not use the R button , highlighted Pgm. ( CSI ) in the guide the left panel asked Record Series, Both , First Run or All chose First run keep 2 shows then OK still got a repeat show recorded .


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

unclebrownie said:


> Did not use the R button , highlighted Pgm. ( CSI ) in the guide the left panel asked Record Series, Both , First Run or All chose First run keep 2 shows then OK still got a repeat show recorded .


Hmmm... (I though you used the R, based on your first post)... either way... some more questions...

Which channel? CBS or one of the syndicates...

Reason I ask, is that for CSI I have had that set since the day I powered up the first HR20... and that (and CSI:NY) have been 100% on the ReRun/First Run logic.

Was it the very "next" showing, after you set the Series Link?

What was the description like for the show... was it "generic" info, or was it very specific... (As I have had it happen on Law and Order, but in each case the extra one was very generic information about the show).

Regardless.

Since this is TCF... head on over to www.dbstalk.com for more discussion on the HR20.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

RS4 said:


> It just shows that we all have a different tolerance for pain


Ah, yes, we who put up with your HR20 bashing!


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## hoopsbwc34 (Jan 28, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> So... mis-understanding how the feature works... makes it a bug....
> 
> Okay... No wonder you all think the HR20 is so buggy...
> You still think it is a TiVo, and if doesn't work the way that the other product works, or how you expect it to work... it is a bug...


Come on Earl... it's not that we expect it to act just like our Tivo, but that we expect it should be intuitive... and to be honest that's exactly why the Tivo is so popular, because there aren't these hidden "features" that you have to figure out what's really going on. If I wanted to do a series link, I hit record twice, why would I not expect it to ignore the original record? I'm trying to do a series link! At a minimum that should be over ruled if it doesn't meet the series link requirements (first run, etc.)

I'm just waiting for you to post something that says..."yeah, that's probably not as good as Tivo." I mean, I know you're a big supporter of the HR20, and it does have it's advantages, I fully admit it, but sometimes, can't someone else be right??

Edit: Just to show I'm game here's what I like so far about the HR20 I just upgraded to

PIG is great when I'm going through menus trying to set things up
One click record, two click series link... nice
Reorder series links with no wait!
Overall speed of moving through menus, making changes, etc.
I think the info data, guides, menus look less cartoony, more "sharp"
CE is sweet too


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

hoopsbwc34 said:


> Come on Earl... it's not that we expect it to act just like our Tivo, but that we expect it should be intuitive... and to be honest that's exactly why the Tivo is so popular, because there aren't these hidden "features" that you have to figure out what's really going on. If I wanted to do a series link, I hit record twice, why would I not expect it to ignore the original record? I'm trying to do a series link! At a minimum that should be over ruled if it doesn't meet the series link requirements (first run, etc.)
> 
> I'm just waiting for you to post something that says..."yeah, that's probably not as good as Tivo." I mean, I know you're a big supporter of the HR20, and it does have it's advantages, I fully admit it, but sometimes, can't someone else be right??


But the system is doing EXACTLY what you told it to.

With your first press you told it to Record *THAT* episode....
2nd you told it to set a series link for it.

Sorry that the box doesn't make an "assumption" that you didn't want to specifically record that first episode, regardles of the series link option.

Or is that "TiVo" made so many assumption on what you wanted to do... 
Or you are so used to how it did make those assumption, and did "other things" you didn't ask it to...

----- 
Regardless...

Has nothing to do with "one way or the other being better"..
No where in my original post did I say either or was better then the other.
I explained how the feature works, what it is doing... at that is it....
Nothing more... nothing less.

If you wan't to oblivous and don't want the facts about how it works.....

I didn't bash the TiVo for doing it the way it did, nor made a claim that either way was better then the other.

And yes... "other people can be right"...

But the statement was about "this" being called a bug... which is not.
A mis-understanding on how the single R press works when you in guide mode... doesn't make it a bug...


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## hoopsbwc34 (Jan 28, 2003)

But if I hit record twice...that means record this series... hit it once it means record this show... For me that just means I have to find the right show to start recording a series link on.. (wait not that one it's a repeat...where's the first run, oh here it is... ok start a series link here) ?? Or just delete the show, no big deal, but still doesnt' make sense to me.

I guess I'm not making my point here... so I'll let it go. In my mind, I would have never thought this (and I'll admit that it may be cause I'm Tivo trained  )

All that being said... I had a similar experience where a couple shows that were repeats were recorded even though I said I only wanted first run. This was that celebrity bull riding show on CMT I believe. Hey so what... it's Vanilla Ice on a Bull!!


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

To quote myself.


JimSpence said:


> ...
> As for the other concerns you have, there's another forum for complaints and questions.


Please go to that other forum to get the info. 
http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112


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## hoopsbwc34 (Jan 28, 2003)

JimSpence said:


> To quote myself.Please go to that other forum to get the info.
> http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112


I'm already there posting... I could never understand why comparisons between the Tivo and HR20 were shunned here though. I mean, as a Tivo owner, I appreciated having the knowledge of the differences and similarities from the perspective of other Tivo owners. That's what I'm trying to give here....


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## hoopsbwc34 (Jan 28, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> If you wan't to oblivous and don't want the facts about how it works.....


I do appreciate that I know how it works now... I wouldn't have figured that out on my own. And I guess my point was I wonder if new, non-Tivo, users would expect that or not. In my mind no, but again, maybe I'm Tivo trained.


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## unclebrownie (Dec 31, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Hmmm... (I though you used the R, based on your first post)... either way... some more questions...
> 
> Which channel? CBS or one of the syndicates...
> 
> ...


 It was Ch 2 CBS NY and it was the next show .


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## Frank_M (Sep 9, 2001)

hoopsbwc34 said:


> I'm already there posting... I could never understand why comparisons between the Tivo and HR20 were shunned here though. I mean, as a Tivo owner, I appreciated having the knowledge of the differences and similarities from the perspective of other Tivo owners. That's what I'm trying to give here....


I agree. As I just ordered the conversion today, I have to say that I was more interested in what people HERE would say, than I am what people at the other forum think. Because I think that the perspective of a former TiVo owner is much more important to me.

To that end, if anyone wants to ask me any questions via private message, go ahead. Just know that I won't have the unit until tomorrow.


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

Mike the moderator is gonna close this thread pretty soon.

I guess the TiVo owners on the forum don't like other people knowing the HR20 works just as good or better.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

Stanley Rohner said:


> Mike the moderator is gonna close this thread pretty soon.
> 
> I guess the TiVo owners on the forum don't like other people knowing the HR20 works just as good or better.


I guess HR20 owners like coming over here and trying to convince people that HR20 can reliably record programs.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

hoopsbwc34 said:


> I'm already there posting... I could never understand why comparisons between the Tivo and HR20 were shunned here though. I mean, as a Tivo owner, I appreciated having the knowledge of the differences and similarities from the perspective of other Tivo owners. That's what I'm trying to give here....


See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=271336
Also, it tends to get a little heated here.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*My personal DVR history*
TiVo HDR110 *
ReplayTV
TiVo HDR112 (2)
TiVo HDR312 (2)
Tivo DSR6000 (5)
TiVo DSR7000
TiVo DSR704 (4)
AccessDTV (2)
MythTV (2)
Microsoft Media Center XP MCE2005 (5) *
DirecTV HR20-700 (3 replacements before giving up on DirecTV)
Comcast HD-DVR (lasted 20 minutes before I was ready to gouge my eyes out)
Microsoft Vista Home Premium * (may go back to XP MCE2005 really soon)
Dish Network VIP622 (2) *
Current hardware in use denoted by asterisk (*).

Every DVR/PVR interface has merit of some kind (except Comcast) but overall usability is the overriding thing that is considered. The DirecTV method for setting a repeating recording that does not catch multiple episodes within the same day is very hostile for those fanily members who recall that this was always easy with TiVo. While I consider the TiVo interface the most elegant and user friendly, it may have more to do with preferring to date the homecoming queen over the president of the chess club. If you choose the DirecTV path TiVo is a static product with limited future since it is not capable of following the upcoming techology path. While an MPEG4 TiVo would certainly interest me the TiVo HD (transferring my Series1 lifetime) is infinately more compelling. Walking away from my DirecTV lifetime was difficult but a 'lifetime' of HR20-700 frustration is certainly not for me...


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> So... mis-understanding how the feature works... makes it a bug....
> 
> Okay... No wonder you all think the HR20 is so buggy...
> You still think it is a TiVo, and if doesn't work the way that the other product works, or how you expect it to work... it is a bug...


It doesn't make it a bug, it means that DTV didn't do the job of educating the user, which when you force someone to give up what they are used to in lieu of what you tell them is better, becomes paramount. They blew it. They full-well knew they were replacing a very intuitive and user-friendly interface with one that did not measure up in that regard, so you would think they would at least try to overcompensate with better instructions and a good plan for weaning folks away from Tivo, rather than just arrogantly shoving something new up our, er, down our throats.

There is little difference between not getting something to work properly because is has a bug and not getting something to work properly because it is both unintuitive and there also are not good instructions presented for how to make it work. The end result it pretty much the same.

Right. No wonder we don't like it.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)




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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Actually it is not a bug... it depends on how you setup the recording.
> 
> If you use the R button to set it up in the guide.
> 
> ...


So, Earl does that mean that if you stand on right foot it will recording something different, than if you stand on your left foot.

_*Call a SPADE a SPADE.*_

Personally, I wouldn't let DirecTV GIVE ME a HR20 free, but then again that is my choice.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

tbeckner said:


> So, Earl does that mean that if you stand on right foot it will recording something different, than if you stand on your left foot.


That is plain stupid. Earl just explained how it worked and it is consistent. Tivo didn't have the one touch record so there is no way it would work the same way. But if you do it the way Tivo sets up recordings it works the same way. At least that is my experience.



tbeckner said:


> Personally, I wouldn't let DirecTV GIVE ME a HR20 free, but then again that is my choice.


A choice made in ignorance is still a choice.


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## tnedator (Dec 4, 2003)

tbeckner said:


> So, Earl does that mean that if you stand on right foot it will recording something different, than if you stand on your left foot.
> 
> _*Call a SPADE a SPADE.*_
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't let DirecTV GIVE ME a HR20 free, but then again that is my choice.


I'm typically a lurker here, but I have to chime in and say that the constant attacks on Earl are unbelievable and hard to understand. The guy has provided good info over the years, and constantly gotten rations of crap for it. I'm surprised he didn't leave for good after so many people called him a liar for suggesting that 6.2 would actually come to the HR10-250.

If you don't like DirecTV or their equipment, then fine, but give it a rest with the constant attacks on the guy.


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## tonyquan (Feb 26, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> It doesn't make it a bug, it means that DTV didn't do the job of educating the user, which when you force someone to give up what they are used to in lieu of what you tell them is better, becomes paramount. They blew it. They full-well knew they were replacing a very intuitive and user-friendly interface with one that did not measure up in that regard, so you would think they would at least try to overcompensate with better instructions and a good plan for weaning folks away from Tivo, rather than just arrogantly shoving something new up our, er, down our throats.
> 
> There is little difference between not getting something to work properly because is has a bug and not getting something to work properly because it is both unintuitive and there also are not good instructions presented for how to make it work. The end result it pretty much the same.
> 
> Right. No wonder we don't like it.


Absolutely 100% agree. At the firm where I work, we had a classic example where we removed a software feature because we believed its replacement was easier, and obvious. There were no "bugs" in the replacement itself, and we believed the removed feature had been made redundant. Guess what? The users complained. And guess what? We heard them and put it back (we left the replacement in too, for those who preferred that) The users (rightly) called us on it, en masse. Once they did, we knew it was a bug to remove it in the first place and it had to come back.

Good design is important, and so is giving users an experience consistent with what they're accustomed to. Time and again, it's been shown that software designers ignore this at their peril. That is precisely why the HR20 has gotten so much heat.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> It just shows that we all have a different tolerance for pain


Guess my young childern have a high tolerence for pain then they had no issues adapting to the HR20 controls over the HR10, the youngest is over joyed she can watch her Dora the Explorer and Little Einsteins without the unit restarting


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## tfederov (Jul 6, 2003)

sjberra said:


> Guess my young childern have a high tolerence for pain then they had no issues adapting to the HR20 controls over the HR10, the youngest is over joyed she can watch her Dora the Explorer and Little Einsteins without the unit restarting


And if she (_my daughter_) wanted to watch the entire group, she can hit play on the folder and go through the entire group without having to use the remote control to start the next one.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

> So, Earl does that mean that if you stand on right foot it will recording something different, than if you stand on your left foot.
> 
> Call a SPADE a SPADE.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't let DirecTV GIVE ME a HR20 free, but then again that is my choice.





tnedator said:


> I'm typically a lurker here, but I have to chime in and say that the constant attacks on Earl are unbelievable and hard to understand. The guy has provided good info over the years, and constantly gotten rations of crap for it. I'm surprised he didn't leave for good after so many people called him a liar for suggesting that 6.2 would actually come to the HR10-250.
> 
> If you don't like DirecTV or their equipment, then fine, but give it a rest with the constant attacks on the guy.


I didn't think that that was an attack on Earl at all.


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## tnedator (Dec 4, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> I didn't think that that was an attack on Earl at all.


I guess that is because it has become socially acceptable to take shots at the guy.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> I didn't think that that was an attack on Earl at all.


Glad you didn't...
Thanks for the re-interpretation of the post...


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## joelq (Oct 9, 2006)

tbeckner said:


> Personally, I wouldn't let DirecTV GIVE ME a HR20 free, but then again that is my choice.


Good for you. On the other hand, good luck with that! This is what just cracks me up about the people that hang on to their D-Tivos and bash the HR20. Since you're a DirecTV customer, I assume that you somewhat like their programming, and since you have an HR10-250, you must like the HD content you're currently receiving. Only use it for OTA you say? There are other ways to get that without using an HR10-250, but I'm sure you know that. My point is - you're with DirecTV because you like the programming that you are getting from them.

On the other hand, it appears you'd rather keep your outdated equipment than receive the new content, which just puzzles me - why stay with DirecTV? Go with cable, get a S3 and be happy.

In addition to my HR20, I still have two SD DirecTivos and an HR10-250. Yes, it's taken a learning curve to get used to the HR20, but the promise of more HD content is making that less painful. I've decided to "get over it" and I'll be fine. Sure, if DirecTV decides to go back to using Tivos again, I'll be back, but right now, the HR20 is the only option and I'm willing to compromise in order to receive the new content.

Yes, it's your choice not to go with the HR20. But, at the expense of not receiving the new content, it seems you're holding onto your Tivo just for the sake of owning a Tivo, which to me, defeats the purpose of getting DirecTV.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> Glad you didn't...
> Thanks for the re-interpretation of the post...


Didn't think it really necessitated re-interpretation, but always willing to lend a hand....

Since many more folks are now getting an HR20, I expect there to be more posts talking about their experiences ...likes and dislikes about the unit. It seems everytime someone posts negatively on the HR20, there are those who feel it necessary to come to its rescue.

What's the point?

If someone wants to bash the HR20 (here on the TiVo Community Forum) ...whether they own one or not ...is it not counter-productive to respond in its defense with some inane comment to the contrary?

Certainly, if someone is outright lying about the machine or refusing to even try one, it's your duty to correct them and/or call them "stupid" or "ignorant." 

I can understand this happening over at DBS, but recently it seems that threads that had finally become somewhat civil here are now once again becoming somewhat hostile.

Just an observation, and ...my opinion.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

joelq said:


> Good for you. On the other hand, good luck with that! This is what just cracks me up about the people that hang on to their D-Tivos and bash the HR20. Since you're a DirecTV customer, I assume that you somewhat like their programming, and since you have an HR10-250, you must like the HD content you're currently receiving. Only use it for OTA you say? There are other ways to get that without using an HR10-250, but I'm sure you know that. My point is - you're with DirecTV because you like the programming that you are getting from them.
> 
> On the other hand, it appears you'd rather keep your outdated equipment than receive the new content, which just puzzles me - why stay with DirecTV? Go with cable, get a S3 and be happy.
> 
> ...


There are many reasons why we are not getting the HR20:

1. When I first started reading this forum several years ago, it was obvious to me that folks loved the Tivo and especially how easy it was to use. As years went on, I've seen comparison after comparison on this site of not only the different models of Tivo to other models, but also of every other kind of dvr. The thing that strikes me the most about the HR20 (beyond all of the initial problems) is that there is not a groundswell of former Tivo users saying this box is the next generation above the Tivo. In fact, it's quite the opposite. We even see folks saying they've had it and are going to use something else.

There are undoubtedly a group of Tivo users who like the HR20. There is no question about that. There is also the group of folks like Earl - they love the new toy and want to try it out, no matter what. Earl has spent so much time with the HR20 and is so deeply committed to making that box a success that he doesn't like anyone saying anything bad about it. Earl reminds of the saying "can't see the forest for the trees". The biggest criticism I've seen is that it is not intuitive and that is a problem that cannot be easily overcome. So, Earl (and others) will point out how the 'feature' works, but it still doesn't overcome the fact that the 'feature' is complex and therefore not intuitive. In the example of the Record button that was discussed, a simple solution might be to ask the user when the button is pressed "Do you want to record this session or a series?" That kind of simple thinking makes a box intuitive.

So, many of us have the impression that the HR20 is just another generic-brand dvr like the Comcast. Therefore, we don't want to take it unless we have to.

2. The timing. Those Tivo owners who have not 'upgraded' to the HR20 or one of the other DirecTV mepg4 receivers are sending a message to DirecTV - 'we want a Tivo branded product and it means a lot to us'. The timing of that 'message' is crucial in my opinion for a couple of reasons - DirecTV is turning on a lot of additional channels this fall. If we don't convert right now, then when will we convert?

The other reason is that the new ownership of DirecTV and the new leadership of Tivo (compared to 3 years ago when they broke up) offers the possibility of new thinking regarding the possibilities of some kind of a new collaboration. In fact, I just received a recorded message talking about the new programming coming for my Series 2 boxes and the last statement was about the two companies 'exploring other opportunities'. So, why not wait for a while and see what happens?

3. Changing video market place. Right now, the cable industry is coming out with new technologies as well as other possibilities from other companies. So, many of us don't want to lock ourselves in for another 2-year commitment. It could be that Tivo gets things worked out with the switched video. Plus, the Comcast Tivo is just coming out. The last thing I want to do is make a commitment for a product that I can't even test.

To sum it up, DirecTV has come out with a product that many of us feels is not the quality that we currently enjoy. We want to show DirecTV that we will not accept that product under the current terms and conditions, if at all possible.

It sort of reminds me of someone going to prison for a couple of years - yes you can adopt to it, but is it really that good and where you want to be?

If enough people hold out for something better, may DirecTV will (or is) consider the alternatives and give us a DTivo mpeg4. So, why wouldn't we wait for a few months?


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## drewcipher (May 21, 2002)

I love my Tivo, but content is king. I have bought 1 HR20 so far and am not at all unhappy. I prefer Tivo, but the HR20 is serviceable and some things are better than Tivo. Even if the new ownership makes peace with Tivo, it will likely be 2 years before they can build and QC a box compatible with MPEG-4, and I am unwilling to wait for all the new channels. Oh, and I don't have access to cable anyway, so I am stuck.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> Certainly, if someone is outright lying about the machine or refusing to even try one, it's your duty to correct them and/or call them "stupid" or "ignorant."


Where, and when have I ever called someone "stupid" or "ignorant".

I have stated, if people want to oblivous to the actuall workings of the box, and want to continue to interpret it and use it the way they used a different product... so be it..

Still doesn't make it a bug.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> Where, and when have I ever called someone "stupid" or "ignorant".
> 
> I have stated, if people want to oblivous to the actuall workings of the box, and want to continue to interpret it and use it the way they used a different product... so be it..
> 
> Still doesn't make it a bug.


You? Nah Ed ...wasn't referring to you. You've been nothing but respectful to other posters in your replies, but I've seen it time and again throughout several threads here on the forum.

The 2nd part of my reply was a generic one and wasn't intended to be looked at as being specific to you ...sorry if it appeared that way.


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

I see the principal HR20 basher on this forum has posted another one of his numerous dissertations a few entries up. Too bad he doesn't realize that his ramblings lack any credibilty whatsoever, being that he doesn't even have an HR20 and is too cheap to even try one. As I've said before, I have both a Tivo HD and an HR20 and have used both of them extensively, and they both work just fine. I tend to like the HR20 interface better than the Tivo. They're just machines. Content is King, and I'm all set for mid September.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

RS4 said:


> To sum it up, DirecTV has come out with a product that many of us feels is not the quality that we currently enjoy.


The problem with this statement is it mostly is coming from people that have not even used the HR20.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> The 2nd part of my reply was a generic one and wasn't intended to be looked at as being specific to you ...sorry if it appeared that way.


Otay...


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

As I say every chance I get, after two weeks the HR20 is still a nuisance to use compared to my HR10-250.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> The problem with this statement is it mostly is coming from people that have not even used the HR20.


And who's fault is it that we haven't tried it? DirecTV will not allow me to try it. I have asked three times this year. So yes, I'm stuck with reading other folks discussions, besides it's quite obvious from reading this forum, the dbstalk forum, and other places on the internet that the HR20 is no replacement for many of the Tivo users.

How many times have we read about people giving up on to the Tivo? How many times have we read about folks giving up on the HR20, both in this forum and the dbstalk forum?

Yes, I'm forced to read about the HR20, because DirecTV doesn't have the confidence to let me try it out, instead they want me to pay $300. But in spite of you bashing us for what we feel, many of us have formed the opinion that it's not what we want.

I can tell you from everything I've read, I wouldn't like the HR20. I tend to search the Tivo for shows that I want to watch, and then I'll set up a Season Pass and/or select the show I want to record. I've read enough about the HR20 and the issues with Channels I Receive and trying to set up recordings from searches to know I wouldn't like the way they do that at all - even if they did get it to work.

I also know that I wouldn't like viewing the picture while I am in the menus. I've seen replies on dbstalk where people say they hold up their hand so they can't see the picture. I hardly ever watch live TV, and the last thing I want to do is be in the menus to start while a football game is showing. It's utterly stupid to have a feature like that and not offer the viewer the opportunity to turn it off. That's just one reason why people point out that DirecTV programmed this unit without thinking about it's usability.

Yes, there are people who like the HR20, and I've even seen some who think it is better then the Tivo. But, I've seen a lot more of the mediocre opinions where people say they want the mpeg4 and so that's the only game in town. That my friend is not an over whelming endorsement.

You can't admit that many people like the Tivo and that is more important than who supplies the video. You can't admit that many Tivo users don't like the HR20, but you are really good at trying to put them down. :down:

And while many of us do point out the facts, all you do is belittle people who don't march to your drum. You have nothing good to say about Tivo. At the same time, you mislead others by implying that all Tivo users will enjoy the HR20. I don't know why you feel the urge to badmouth us when folks are just offering their opinions - especially when this is a Tivo forum. It's one thing to discuss the facts, and something else to make fun of people just because they don't agree with you. 

The good thing about someone like Earl is that he will discuss the issues, and we appreciate that. He answers most questions factually. We don't necessarily agree with his conclusions, but we know he isn't going to attack us. He doesn't see the need to personally assault us like you do.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

RS4 said:


> How many times have we read about people giving up on to the Tivo?


Well, up until recently, what choice did they have? There have been plenty of complaints about the HR10 (and still are). But since it was the only DRV available (let's not forget the UTV folks who felt it was superior to Tivo), how could they previously given up?



RS4 said:


> Yes, I'm forced to read about the HR20, because DirecTV doesn't have the confidence to let me try it out, instead they want me to pay $300.


Ok, so you 'think' you are forced to only read about it. That doesn't give you the right to tell people to stay away from it without having any actual first hand experience.



RS4 said:


> I can tell you from everything I've read, I wouldn't like the HR20.


I suppose you also do you not go see movies to just because of what the reviewers say.  Then people wonder why I use the term 'Tivo lemmings'.



RS4 said:


> You can't admit that many people like the Tivo and that is more important than who supplies the video.


Sure I can, but IMO they are being short sighted for putting a UI that is used much less then 1% of the time over just enjoying the shows.



RS4 said:


> You can't admit that many Tivo users don't like the HR20, but you are really good at trying to put them down. :down:


And you can't admit that many do like it and are really good at trying to discredit them or make it sound like it is a very small number.



RS4 said:


> At the same time, you mislead others by implying that all Tivo users will enjoy the HR20.


I never said that. All I have ever said is that people (like you) should actually use it before bashing it. If someone has tried it (for more than a day) and doesn't like it, then fine, but mostly we just hear from people like you who have never even touched one. So, if anyone has misled people it is you who has often made comments that make it sound like you actually have one.



RS4 said:


> He doesn't see the need to personally assault us like you do.


Please point to any post where I have personally assaulted anyone over this issue. But just like you not actually having any experience with the HR20, you won't be able to do that either since it's more stuff you just made up.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Mark Lopez said:


> I suppose you also do you not go see movies to just because of what the reviewers say.  Then people wonder why I use the term 'Tivo lemmings'.


You're ignoring the fact that he has said that he'd like to try the HR20 himself. It's just not possible without extending your commitment.

And no, I don't wonder.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

tnedator said:


> I'm typically a lurker here, but I have to chime in and say that the constant attacks on Earl are unbelievable and hard to understand. The guy has provided good info over the years, and constantly gotten rations of crap for it. I'm surprised he didn't leave for good after so many people called him a liar for suggesting that 6.2 would actually come to the HR10-250...give it a rest with the constant attacks on the guy.


OK, ladies, maybe we all need to calm down a bit before someone runs out of patience and slams the thread shut.

I haven't noticed Earl getting his balls busted any more than anyone else, but since you mention it, I'd like to put in a good word for him.

I know I call him on stuff on occasion, but I think he's smart enough to accept it gracefully and not misinterpret it as an attack. Earl seems like a good guy, and this forum could use his input. IOW, this forum was a better place when Earl was a regular contributor. If attacks have caused him to contribute less, then that's really just sad. You have to have a thick skin here, but you don't have to be here, either, so whatever his choice I support him.

Earl seems to have a unique viewpoint and can bring unique info. I don't always agree with everything he says, but I will defend to the death his right to say it. He is absolutely the least insane of the HR20 converts, that's for sure, and speaking for those who honestly tried to embrace the HR20 yet just couldn't pull the trigger, I think we'd all love to see him post more often.

Be healthy, my friend.


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## joelq (Oct 9, 2006)

nrc said:


> You're ignoring the fact that he has said that he'd like to try the HR20 himself. It's just not possible without extending your commitment.
> 
> And no, I don't wonder.


Man, I really hate to thread-jack, but this is another one of those things I just don't get. What's the problem with extending your commitment?!?

If you bought a new DVR for say, $600 without a commitment (if it was even possible), but you somehow had to cancel your subscription, you'd be left with a useless piece of equipment that you own, but certainly wouldn't be able to get all your money for, even if you sold it. If you go with the commitment, you're not stuck with useless equipment, but you are on the hook for an early termination fee. What's the big deal?!?! It's a non-issue, in my opinion.

C'mon, you're not going to cancel your sub. You know it. People are just making a bigger deal about it than it really is.

I think this is another one of those rationalizations for not "getting over it". As I mentioned in another post, if you dislike DirecTV that much and your love for your Tivo is greater, switch to cable, get a S3, and be happy! What better way to "boycott" DirecTV's move away from Tivo than to cancel your service!


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

nrc said:


> You're ignoring the fact that he has said that he'd like to try the HR20 himself. It's just not possible without extending your commitment.
> 
> And no, I don't wonder.


And you are ignoring the fact that for a long time he posted as if he had one until someone called him on it and he admitted he didn't.

The whole point is we have a select group of people bashing a product they have not even used. And stating things that 'I read somehwere' as if they are a fact for everyone.

I've never once said the HR20 was superior to Tivo. All I have ever said is that Tivo had/has just as many bugs and shortcomings as the HR20. As someone who has owned a Tivo since they first rolled off the assembly line, I can assure you that it had many many problems. Most notably the 1.3 (I think) 'stutters' that Tivo refused to acknowledge was happening despite widespread reports. They even had me ship my unit directly to them and it 'mysteriously' was DOA.  And the replacement they sent did the same thing. The day 2.0 rolled out, the stutters were gone. Hmmm......

When Tivo first came out, many complained of the lack of options and of course were overjoyed at the 'backdoor codes' and other hacks. But the HR20 gives you more choices and the same people complain it should be easy like a Tivo. 

As for the commitment, all I can say is  Many of us paid $1K for the HD Tivo when it first came out (I bought 2). Sure sounds like a commitment to me. <shrug> So IMO the new commitment is just another excuse to needlessly whine about the HR20.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

joelq said:


> If you bought a new DVR for say, $600 without a commitment (if it was even possible), but you somehow had to cancel your subscription, you'd be left with a useless piece of equipment that you own, but certainly wouldn't be able to get all your money for, even if you sold it. If you go with the commitment, you're not stuck with useless equipment, but you are on the hook for an early termination fee. What's the big deal?!?! It's a non-issue, in my opinion.


Just because you're bad with money doesn't make it a non-issue. If you own the box with no commitment, then you can recoup your costs by selling the box. If you lease the box with a commitment, then you have no tangible assets and no recourse for recouping _anything_; it's simply money spent.

I've used an HR20. I don't like it. The issues start as soon as you open the box... the slab remote. Nothing can make a rectangluar block ergonomic. (The Tivo patented "peanut" is best remote ever made by man.) I'm certainly not going to sign a 2 year commitment for junk I don't like. I came to DTV because of Tivo; and the picture quality _was_ far better than analog cable. Today, neither of those are true: DTV no longer supports tivo and they've robbed so much bandwidth from SD content that it looks _worse_ than analog cable from 10 years ago. (I still have things recorded from 7 years ago to prove it.)


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

cramer said:


> The issues start as soon as you open the box... the slab remote. Nothing can make a rectangluar block ergonomic. (The Tivo patented "peanut" is best remote ever made by man.)


This is one of the lamest complaints about the HR20 (or any piece of equipment) I have seen. Everyone I know that has more than one component has a 'real' universal remote. My Tivo remotes have only been used long enough to teach my MX-500s the pattern I want. Just because you think the Tivo remote is the best remote ever made my man, just further proves my use of the 'Tivo lemming' term. IMO anyone who uses the remote these days (for any piece of gear) as a gauge of functionality or anything is just showing how shortsighted they are.


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## joelq (Oct 9, 2006)

cramer said:


> Just because you're bad with money doesn't make it a non-issue. If you own the box with no commitment, then you can recoup your costs by selling the box. If you lease the box with a commitment, then you have no tangible assets and no recourse for recouping _anything_; it's simply money spent.
> ....


But your up-front costs are lower when you assume a two-year commitment than when you buy a box outright. The costs are similar in the long run. C'mon - it's not as big a deal as people make it out to be.

Anyway, enough thread-jacking.... Back to our originally scheduled program....


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> This is one of the lamest complaints about the HR20 (or any piece of equipment) I have seen. Everyone I know that has more than one component has a 'real' universal remote. My Tivo remotes have only been used long enough to teach my MX-500s the pattern I want. Just because you think the Tivo remote is the best remote ever made my man, just further proves my use of the 'Tivo lemming' term. IMO anyone who uses the remote these days (for any piece of gear) as a gauge of functionality or anything is just showing how shortsighted they are.


And you don't call that putting someone down - "lamest", "shortsighted"?  You do it so much, you don't even realize you're disparaging people.

And of course the remote is part of the quality of the product. It may not be a major issue, but it certainly reflects on the overall quality. This is just another sign that this box was rushed to market without any thought for usability.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

RS4 said:


> And you don't call that putting someone down - "lamest", "shortsighted"?  You do it so much, you don't even realize you're disparaging people.


No, I call it giving an *opinion*, and was a general comment made in reference to a group of people (we ahve heard the remote whining before). Sorry if some of you are so sensitive that you can't take a little criticism over things that are non issues for most people that have an open mind and can look at the big picture.

The poster's comment was like buying a car, opening the door and then claiming it will be a lemon because you don't like looks of the radio.



RS4 said:


> And of course the remote is part of the quality of the product. It may not be a major issue, but it certainly reflects on the overall quality. This is just another sign that this box was rushed to market without any thought for usability.


Don't you also want to complain about the color of the power cord too?

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps they did do a usability test and found that most people were ok with the remote or indicated they didn't care? Just because you don't like it... oh wait... you don't actually have one. So let me rephrase that. Just because the OP doesn't like it, doesn't mean others don't find it perfectly usable.


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

Cheap, Cheap, Cheap, Cheap, Cheap, Cheap, Cheap, Cheap, Cheap!


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> ...IMO anyone who uses the remote these days (for any piece of gear) as a gauge of functionality or anything is just showing how shortsighted they are.


Shortsighted? I can't begin to tell you how ironic it is that you would use that term. I won't go so far as to say "Uni remotes are for losers" or "Anybody that spends over $200 on a remote is a born sucker", because that would be shortsighted, indeed, even if it might reflect an opinion equally as valid as your "IMO" above.

But the fact is that uni remotes are not God's gift, and some of us prefer to use the originals for everything. I use a Kameleon for my aging Yamaha preamp (which I use just to expand the switching capabilites of my new AVR), but I also juggle 7 or 8 other original remotes, simply because I prefer it.

And I take issue with anyone having a negative opinion about that.

I was the biggest proponent of uni/learning remotes you could imagine. I bought the first learning remote in 1978 (General Electric made it, and the store had to order it for me) and I owned the best learning remote of the previous millenium (Steve Wozniak's CL9), and I tried and rejected literally scores of others since.

The problem is that there is a point of dimishing returns when you ask a handheld device to do more tasks, and increasingly-more buttons on the same real estate equals increasingly-less functionality. Now you have to start worrying about layers, and pages, and shift keys. And tinier buttons closer together.

I want to be able to pick up a remote without looking, press the keys I want without looking, and get on with it. Others in my life curse my plate of a near-dozen remotes laid out before me, but they can kiss my ***, because my system works for me, and nobody else has the right to have an opinion about that.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> I want to be able to pick up a remote without looking, press the keys I want without looking, and get on with it. Others in my life curse my plate of a near-dozen remotes laid out before me, but they can kiss my ***, because my system works for me, and nobody else has the right to have an opinion about that.


And you get the best chance to do just that if you set up your own programmed remote. And you can do it with one remote.

I use an SL9000 which is no longer manufactured, sadly, but it has all hard buttons. They are all 100% learnable and there are about 45 of them for 8 devices. It has not had a problem learning anything.

The replacement for the SL9000 is the RF10. It has 8 devices, about 42 hard keys but also has a shift button so that makes 84 keys for 8 devices. And it is 100% learnable, so it is one remote for all your devices and you can pick where you want the buttons so you don't have to play by anyone's rules but your own.

Oh, and I can program the Tivo control set to change the TV PIP on either of them, so the devices are intermixable.

Go grab each of your remotes. I will have my one remote in my hand at all times and be able to do anything on my TV, my DVRs, my DVD player, my AVR without moving anything more than a thumb.

Guess you just haven't researched your remotes very well.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> at. Just because the OP doesn't like it, doesn't mean others don't find it perfectly usable.


Once again we get faint praise. I've seen this over and over when people attack TiVo owners. "It's perfectly serviceable, "It does what it needs to", "The interface isn't that bad after you get used to it" and on and on. OK, we get it. You defend "good enough" instead of "better", that is your right. Personally I prefer "better".

As others have posted I would not be adverse to trying an HR20 but I'll be damned if I will commit to a 2 year deal. They just dropped the new ATT Lightspeed Boxes down the street, and you can bet Comcast will bend over backwards to get customers rather than ATT. In the mean time I'm tied to an "OK' box? Sorry, no.

This forum as a pleasant place for the last month with very few Hr20rs posting, sort of following the rules. I wish the mod's could simply move these discussions over to DBS where they belong just as off topic posts are moved to the correct forum at AVS. Yes, I've read all the arguments that we 10-250's want to learn about the 20, and the 20's should be able to post here, well there is a forums for that at DBS. If TiVo people found there way here years ago, did the population suddenly get stupider to the point they cant read the header that HR20 stuff doesn't belong here?

Hummm, OK.


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