# Roamio and streaming to different subnet problem



## TV_Tom122 (Feb 12, 2014)

I know everything says that the TiVo (and built in Stream) have to be on the same subnet as the iOS device. I understand why that is said too. Due to the Bonjour discovery process it goes much easier if everything is on the same subnet (broadcasts don't normally get passed between subnets). This is similar to Airplay in that regards.

The thing is that while it is easier, it is technically not required for Bonjour discovery to work. With the proper routers you can relay mDNS/Bonjour (5353) across subnets just fine. I have a MOCA subnet (FIOS), a wired subnet, and a wireless subnet. With the traffic designated appropriately. This has been working just fine for years and I have Airplay working across subnets just fine by using mDNS relay.

I just got a new Roamio Plus and can not get it to stream between my wired and wireless network. The Roamio is on the wired subnet and I have a Ipad on the wireless subnet. mDNS is set up just fine. Discovery works. The iOS app can see and connect to the TiVo just fine. I can view the guide, my shows, start recordings, etc just fine from the Ipad app. My Ipad can find the built in Stream. When, in the app, I go to sys info, I can see the details on the Stream and it all looks good. I can go to Full Sys Info and it looks good. So while I can find/see the Stream as well and find/control the DVR, I can not complete the Streaming Setup and actually stream/download from the Roamio to the Ipad. As a note, if I disable mDNS relay, sure enough, the app can not fine the Stream or DVR at all (as expected) and I get the appropriate error when the app starts up period. So again the discovery is obviously working.

When I try to stream or complete the streaming setup I get the following error:

"Network Problem: streaming device to DVR. The streaming device cannot contact the DVR."

Now elsewhere in the setup process, "streaming device" seems to refer to the Stream. If so, the error makes no since since the Stream is integrated into the Roamio. But anyways for some reason even though everything can see each other, it will not stream. I have checked logs as well as a packet monitor and I can see that the Stream IP address connects to and communicates with the Ipad IP address. As far as I can tell the iOS app makes some assumptions (and is coded) that everything is on the same subnet such that even if the discovery works and everything can see each other, actual streaming still fails.

In addition to mDNS relay (which is sufficient for Bonjour and Airplay for example) I have looked into relaying the old Beacon broadcast port 2190 (I saw that pop up in the logs once) as well as enabling various Multicast and IGMP options on my router. Obviously none of that was sufficient.

I have done some research and can't fine that anyone has ever been able to make this work for the TiVo, but wanted to ask it again and see if anyone has any ideas.

One other note, if I do put the wired TiVo on the wireless subnet (still wired), of course streaming works just fine so my hardware is fine. Obviously that would be an easy fix from my end, but I really don't want all the TiVo/Mini/Netflix HD traffic on that part of my network. It needs to stay where it belongs and only the streaming should take up any wireless subnet bandwidth. My guess is it is a software issue somewhere.


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## pautler (Oct 10, 2013)

I could be *totally* wrong, but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the software was intentionally crippled to prevent streaming to a different subnet due to copyright concerns and restrictions. In other words, the goal was to prevent people from streaming content to places outside of their home.

-Joe


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## anthonymoody (Apr 29, 2008)

Strange that putting them on the same subnet then moving it back didn't work. I had a similar problem getting a TiVo mini to see my Roamio - too many switches in my network apparently. When I removed the switch and went direct, the mini saw the Roamio. I then put the switch back in the chain and the mini continues to work. Sorry can't be more help. Much of your post was Greek to me


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

If you have different subnets why not just put the Tivos on there own and everything else on the other(s)? 

That's what I do, I just give the Tivo network access to the Internet and on my Kmttg PC, I have two network cards in it, one for my Tivo network and the other for the rest of my network. 

So far I haven't had any issues but I started with idea to give my TiVo's their own network so everything is on the same thing, I have a NAS that has created a couple issue when trying to get to it from a different subnet but because it uses samba shares, I don't have any problem port forwarding to it.

Now with that as I see your possible issue, your Apple isn't on the TiVo subnet, I don't have Stream since I don't have any apple devices to stream to them so I have no idea.

But.... Does your router or switch support VPN tunneling? If you do, can you load a VPN client on the Apple and VPN into your Tivo subnet?


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

Also might check and see how many in addresses the Roamio is using, I swear I saw some were that someone noticed that their Plus or PRO was sometimes using two address via dhcp, turned out the only time e they saw it with two addresses was when they were using stream, the built in stream pulled a address when it was used and released it after it was done. 

Apparently there are three mac addresses on the back of the pro/plus, one for the ethernet/Moca, one for wireless and the other was speculated to be for the Stream. If that is the case the Stream while in the same circuit board, doesn't share the common ethernet/Moca and wireless interfaces but has its own perhaps? 

Don't hold me to that, I can't recall if I saw that here or over on TiVo's forums.


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## rkashden (Nov 25, 2015)

Yep, this is an artificial restriction done by the Tivo software. There is no reason to consider different SUBNETs to be different NETWORKS. I'm sure they did that to placate rights holders, but the developer that wrote the restriction is flat out wrong.

Many new wifi routers create their own subnet. By default your wifi device (IOS and Android) will be on a different subnet than your TIVO box. 

Addresses within the 192.168.x.x range should ALL be considered the same network for copyright restriction.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Really? I thought the WiFi connections and directly-plugged-in devices were always on the same subnet..


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## rkashden (Nov 25, 2015)

Ideally one would connect your Roamio using Moca. That is almost always the better network. The Moca network is most likely controlled by your cable modem's built in router. Typically they will be on the 192.168.1.x network.

Your Ipad or Android device is of course on Wifi. I've seen more and more that the better wifi routers/devices will create their own subnet, say 192.168.7.x. 

One alternative is to turn off the features in your wifi router (turning it into a bridge) to act as an access point to your cable modem's network.

But the only reason to do all this tinkering is so that Tivo will stream the copy protected shows in your own home. 

It's not a technology issues because the non-protected shows will stream fine to any subnet in your house. 

According the RFC 1918,from the IETF:

3. Private Address Space

The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) has reserved the
following three blocks of the IP address space for private internets:

10.0.0.0 - 10.255.255.255 (10/8 prefix)
172.16.0.0 - 172.31.255.255 (172.16/12 prefix)
192.168.0.0 - 192.168.255.255 (192.168/16 prefix)

Note: the last set of addresses. Anything in the 192.168.x.x addresses should be considered your home and allowed to have streaming of all shows, regardless of copyright.

**********************************************
I stand firmly that this is a bug in Tivo (and hopefully others will speak out so the developers might consider fixing it). I think they will only make the change if many of us speak up.
**********************************************


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## dmurphy (Jan 17, 2002)

RoamioJeff said:


> Bingo!


... Not bingo.

Some of us don't use the 192.168.x.x addressing scheme.

I use a /22 out of the 172.16.0.0 block at home. I have another /24 out of that at a family member's house connected via VPN for file backup purposes.

Any ASSumption on TiVo's part would be invalid.


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## rkashden (Nov 25, 2015)

dmurphy said:


> I use a /22 out of the 172.16.0.0 block at home. I have another /24 out of that at a family member's house connected via VPN for file backup purposes.


I totally agree that should all be considered as part of in home. If TiVo just followed the Internet standard then we'd all be fine.


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## dmurphy (Jan 17, 2002)

rkashden said:


> I totally agree that should all be considered as part of in home. If TiVo just followed the Internet standard then we'd all be fine.


Why would you consider that in home? That's not a standard, at all ...

Just having reserved IP blocks doesn't mean squat about your network topology.


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## rkashden (Nov 25, 2015)

dmurphy said:


> Why would you consider that in home? That's not a standard, at all ...
> 
> Just having reserved IP blocks doesn't mean squat about your network topology.


It's not my opinion, it's the standard topology of the Internet. Here's a snippet from the official document from the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) which is the governing body for the internet...

The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) has reserved the
following three blocks of the IP address space for private internets:

10.0.0.0 - 10.255.255.255 (10/8 prefix)
172.16.0.0 - 172.31.255.255 (172.16/12 prefix)
192.168.0.0 - 192.168.255.255 (192.168/16 prefix)

I'm just following these guidelines. Why would you think that is not "standard"?


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## dmurphy (Jan 17, 2002)

rkashden said:


> It's not my opinion, it's the standard topology of the Internet. Here's a snippet from the official document from the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) which is the governing body for the internet...
> 
> The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) has reserved the
> following three blocks of the IP address space for private internets:
> ...


Just that those blocks are reserved for private networks does NOT mean that the entirety of the address block is a single network.

For example, an enterprise may use the 10/8 block for dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of sites. I am doing something similar, but on a much smaller scale, within my family. Assuming that 172.16.25.30 and 172.24.25.30 are in the same dwelling is incorrect indeed.

Just because a set of IPs are set aside as non-routable does NOT mean that all addresses in that block are in a single building. Poor assumption.


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## rkashden (Nov 25, 2015)

I completely agree that one can set up a network that a range of IPs can go across several physical sites. Your current set-up is a good example of that.

I can (and I'm sure you can as well) think of ways to make several devices in several remote locations to have the addresses on the same subnet.

I understand that Tivo is trying to walk the line of determining whether a device is remote or not. That was a problem when they added the "out of network streaming". 

My point is that Tivo has made the subnet as the determination of a physical location (in-house versus out-of-house). I think that is too restrictive, given that devices today in many homes will create multiple subnets. It would save a lot of hassles if Tivo just followed the standard that the RFC set. They would be on extremely firm ground.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

Do you have allow broadcast on your router turned on ? Most routers data intentionally are set to not rebroadcast . UDP broadcast are usually not allowed to flood a segment. Crossing a segment has to be permitted at the router interface.


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