# TiVo Series 4? (Standalone OCAP/Tru2Way Box)



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

It appears that the TiVo earnings release and conference call provided the details on the next standalone platform from TiVo. A Standalone OCAP/Tru2Way box targeted at both retail and cable cos.

http://www.tivolovers.com/2008/03/05/tivo-developing-standalone-ocaptru2way-box/

Along these lines, cable operators are beginning to realize the benefits of providing their
customers with a feature set that goes beyond the applications that they have been offering to this
point. In this regard, we are working in conjunction with CableLabs toward creating a
standalone box that would be capable of providing the two way services provided by cable
operators.

Earnings Call Transcript Here

-Sam


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

A HD TiVo box that can also seamlessly handle cable companies VOD and PPV and tune in SDV, WHERE DO I SIGN UP?? I'll take 2 first day its offered.


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## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

By the time they offer this I'll probably have a 2nd HDTV at home. Then I'd most certainly want to pick one up for my main TV and hopefully be able to transfer lifetime from a S2 over to it. Then move my current THD to the second TV.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

This is a great move for the company but I won't be rushing to get one. I am new to the TiVoHD and we just have lifeline cable and watch mostly the QAM local HD channels. I would bet the SDV dongle will come out well before the new box, so if I needed the dongle, I would just use that.

But, again, a great move for the company.


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## jkalnin (Jan 8, 2003)

What is a SDV dongle? Google time!

I just got a Tivo HD - this Series 4 sucker better be a long way away!!!


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

jkalnin said:


> What is a SDV dongle? Google time!............


The SDV dongle will be a "tuning-resolver" for SDV, or switched digital video. If you are not familiar with that, it is essentially a way for the cable companies to reduce bandwidth usage by only sending a channel's signal when you call for it. SDV channels cannot be tuned by any current digital TiVo (or analog for that matter, but that is moot anyway).

The dongle will be a USB adapter for the TiVo that will provide for the necessary two-way communications with the cable head-end so that you are able to tune and schedule recordings for SDV based channels.

Soooooo, the box being referenced above sounds like it will have all of this built in.


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## grantsa4 (Jun 14, 2007)

When does everyone think this new box will come out - 2009, 2010?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

grantsa4 said:


> When does everyone think this new box will come out - 2009, 2010?


might see a prototype at january 2009 CES show - it will be working but most likely not a "hands on, try it yourself" working.

sometime in late 2009 we might hear more about when it will come out. My guess is 2010, hopefully early. I say it will take this long mainly because cablelabs and Comcast are also involved in what tru2way is. This is not solely a TiVo effort, which by the way is exactly what is so good about this new box to me.


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## jkalnin (Jan 8, 2003)

So the SDV Dongle basically adds OnDemand and PPV to the TivoHD without a need for the cable box. Sweet... looking forward to its eventual release!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

from article said:


> Note that during the quarter, an accounting change was implemented that took the estimate for the *life of a product lifetime subscription from 48 months to 54 months*, as these subs are keeping the TiVo service longer than we originally anticipated. The change to a longer amortization period impacted service and tech revenues, as well as adjusted EBITDA and the net loss by approximately $2.5 million in the fourth quarter.


OUCH


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jkalnin said:


> So the SDV Dongle basically adds OnDemand and PPV to the TivoHD without a need for the cable box. Sweet... looking forward to its eventual release!


no - it will not add PPV or VOD in its initial implementation. It merely will tune the switched digital channels the one way cable card can not currently get.

to do PPV/VOD you need the cbale company interface to see it and order it. That is what the series 4 is about and will not need the external dongle.

There is speculation that with a software updae a TivoHD or Sereis 3 could use the dongle in conjunction with some HME like OCAP application. I do not forsee cable companies going for that though.


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## logicman1 (Jan 10, 2008)

jkalnin said:


> So the SDV Dongle basically adds OnDemand and PPV to the TivoHD without a need for the cable box. Sweet... looking forward to its eventual release!


You can find all known SDV info in SDV FAQ


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> might see a prototype at january 2009 CES show - it will be working but most likely not a "hands on, try it yourself" working.
> 
> sometime in late 2009 we might hear more about when it will come out. My guess is 2010, hopefully early. I say it will take this long mainly because cablelabs and Comcast are also involved in what tru2way is. This is not solely a TiVo effort, which by the way is exactly what is so good about this new box to me.


Zeo,

I believe, and hope, that you're wrong about your projected dates.

My guess is that if they're talking about it in their conference calls, that they already have a "working" prototype up and running in their labs. The hardware additions are not that elaborate -- it's mostly software, for which they've already implemented some of the new features with their Comcast venture. Since Tru2way is really just a re-titled release of OCAP, I also believe it's much further along than you do.

If I had to predict, I would say we'll see something on the store shelves by Christmas 2008. Time will tell which of our predictions is closer.

I for one will not be upgrading my two Series 2 boxes until they release this "Series 4". VOD and PPV are not must-haves for me, but it sure would be nice to have the option. I also don't want to have to stick another box in my rack for the SDV tuning resolver (not to mention pay the cable company more money to rent it, which I'm sure will be required, despite Tivo's pronouncements). In the meantime, I'll put up with the awful SA8300HD to get my limited HD, and continue to use my Tivos for everything else.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

NotVeryWitty said:


> Zeo,
> 
> I believe, and hope, that you're wrong about your projected dates.
> 
> ...


My speculation is somewhere in between. Demonstration 4Q08 and availability 2Q09. Sounds like a poll is needed.


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## edrock200 (Feb 7, 2002)

Thought I doubt it, it would be great if they could develop a USB dongle and software update for the series 3 to take advantage of VOD.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

jlb said:


> SDV channels cannot be tuned by any current digital TiVo (or analog for that matter, but that is moot anyway).


Analog TiVos with a digital box will get SDV through the box, FWIW.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> OUCH


Ouch? Seems good to me, since it suggests the product lasts. Only ouch is if they then raise the lifetime price as a result.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sbiller said:


> My speculation is somewhere in between. Demonstration 4Q08 and availability 2Q09. Sounds like a poll is needed.


my demo in Jan 2009 is not that far off yours. Unless cable labs is extremely motivated they will dely the model into 2010, just doing their usual testing and dithering, nothing evil or conspiracy seen here by me. Our only hope there is Comcast keeping cable labs motivated. The Series 3 had its share of hassle in cable labs that is for sure.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DrewTivo said:


> Ouch? Seems good to me, since it suggests the product lasts. Only ouch is if they then raise the lifetime price as a result.


The Ouch was more for TiVo than us. and they have already raised the price of lifetime and it would seem it is still not priced high enough from a bookeeping perspective.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

> an accounting change was implemented that took the estimate for the life of a product lifetime subscription from 48 months to 54 months, as these subs are keeping the TiVo service longer than we originally anticipated.


I hate you Tivo. Thanks for confirming that "lifetime" doesn't mean the same to you as is does to the consumer.

I think its not wrong to extrapolate that we will not see any updates to units that are approaching the 54 month mark. Considering the already known code release schedule of Tivo It seems that 3.5 years might be the maximum span of time we can expect updates.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> The Ouch was more for TiVo than us. and they have already raised the price of lifetime and it would seem it is still not priced high enough from a bookeeping perspective.


You'd have to run the present discounted value. If you figure each year costs $100, which seems to be how they've accounted, then yes, they should raise the price $50. But they are getting all that money up front.

And keep in mind that while people may keep the units in service longer, that doesn't mean they aren't adding other units as well. If I had a lifetime unit I'd keep it attached until it broke, since there's no cost to doing so, even though I might add a new HD or two, (or a S2 DT).


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

ciper said:


> I hate you Tivo. Thanks for confirming that "lifetime" doesn't mean the same to you as is does to the consumer.
> .


I'm not following your reasoning. What opinion would the general consumer have on an accounting construct? Why would they care?

Al


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## wbertram (Jun 14, 2002)

ciper said:


> I hate you Tivo. Thanks for confirming that "lifetime" doesn't mean the same to you as is does to the consumer.
> 
> I think its not wrong to extrapolate that we will not see any updates to units that are approaching the 54 month mark. Considering the already known code release schedule of Tivo It seems that 3.5 years might be the maximum span of time we can expect updates.


Not true. TIVO provided the DST (Daylight Savings Time) update for Series 1 TIVOs which were made in the 2000 era.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ciper said:


> I hate you Tivo. Thanks for confirming that "lifetime" doesn't mean the same to you as is does to the consumer.


And it never will for any company, ever. There is no such thing as "lifetime" in business.


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## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

I love lifetime. Just retired a Series 1 in January that was running for 7 years when I transferred the lifetime sub to my new Tivo HD. My Series 2 has been running strong for 4 years and I expect to get full use out of it as well. If I was paying monthly all this time I'd certainly hate myself by now.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

ciper said:


> I hate you Tivo. Thanks for confirming that "lifetime" doesn't mean the same to you as is does to the consumer.
> 
> I think its not wrong to extrapolate that we will not see any updates to units that are approaching the 54 month mark. Considering the already known code release schedule of Tivo It seems that 3.5 years might be the maximum span of time we can expect updates.


This has nothing to do with how long Tivo will or will not support your unit. This is purely an accounting function. Accounting rules do not allow Tivo to recognize all the money paid for the lifetime service at one time, they must amortize it over a period of time. Previously they had recognized it over 48 months, since they are seeing that most lifetime units are lasting longer than that, they have chosen to stretch the "accounting lifetime" of units to 54 month. This a minor change, but will result in Tivo recognizing less revenue per month per lifetime subscriber.

FYI, the series 2 has been out for over 5 years now and everyone of them are still receiving updates.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

wbertram said:


> Not true. TIVO provided the DST (Daylight Savings Time) update for Series 1 TIVOs which were made in the 2000 era.


That was a script fix. Any fix that involves the TiVo binaries will not happen.


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## DPF (Mar 20, 2003)

ciper said:


> I hate you Tivo. Thanks for confirming that "lifetime" doesn't mean the same to you as is does to the consumer.
> 
> I think its not wrong to extrapolate that we will not see any updates to units that are approaching the 54 month mark. Considering the already known code release schedule of Tivo It seems that 3.5 years might be the maximum span of time we can expect updates.


Tell that to my 65+ month Series 2 which has the most recent software updates and all of todays features. Also, how does the fact the even though it's just an accounting construct and meaningless, the fact that they extended 6 months is cause for complaint?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

DPF said:


> Also, how does the fact the even though it's just an accounting construct and meaningless, the fact that they extended 6 months is cause for complaint?


Is there a question in here somewhere? My fourth grade nuns would have a fit diagramming this sentence.


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## DPF (Mar 20, 2003)

Aside from being a horrible run on, there's an extra "is" in there. I'll leave it for posterity.

You're welcome .

-DPF


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

wow, it only took till post #10 to drive this completely off topic.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

ah30k said:


> Is there a question in here somewhere? My fourth grade nuns would have a fit diagramming this sentence.


Do they let girls into the nunnery that young?


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

edrock200 said:


> Thought I doubt it, it would be great if they could develop a USB dongle and software update for the series 3 to take advantage of VOD.


The cable companies are adamant that they want to control the UI that presents VOD and PPV and perhaps other pay services to customers. Thus the dual-mode (TiVo, Tru2Way) idea for the S4. SDV is different in that there is no UI component particular to it beyond the old-fashioned changing of channels; it is just some additional back-end protocol, invisible to the customer, that is needed to support changing channels.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

brettatk said:


> I love lifetime. Just retired a Series 1 in January that was running for 7 years when I transferred the lifetime sub to my new Tivo HD. My Series 2 has been running strong for 4 years and I expect to get full use out of it as well. If I was paying monthly all this time I'd certainly hate myself by now.


Ditto here on lifetime. Our original Series 1 was running from June 2000-January 2007 (79 months) and our second upgraded Series 1 was running from May 2002 - February 2008 (69 months). We did lifetime transfers on both to Series 3's.

Scott


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## dtphonehome (Dec 26, 2006)

bicker said:


> And it never will for any company, ever. There is no such thing as "lifetime" in business.


Totally off-topic, but Time magazine used to offer "eternal" subscriptions back when they were first getting started (I think in the 20's). They could be transferred to your heirs, so it was even more than one lifetime. They didn't offer it for very long though. A couple of years ago they mentioned that a few dozen people are still getting magazines from their ancestors' original eternal sub.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Given how buggy first releases of dvr's have been from every company making them, how long will you wait after the OCAP box is released before buying one? That might be more important than when it is released. And then there is my local cable company that will act like the new box is from Mars...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dtphonehome said:


> Totally off-topic, but Time magazine used to offer "eternal" subscriptions back when they were first getting started (I think in the 20's). They could be transferred to your heirs, so it was even more than one lifetime. They didn't offer it for very long though. A couple of years ago they mentioned that a few dozen people are still getting magazines from their ancestors' original eternal sub.


And they get some good PR out of doing so, but the law is very clear: Contracts without specific time durations are unenforcible.


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## etz (Sep 8, 2006)

dtphonehome said:


> Totally off-topic, but Time magazine used to offer "eternal" subscriptions back when they were first getting started (I think in the 20's). They could be transferred to your heirs, so it was even more than one lifetime. They didn't offer it for very long though. A couple of years ago they mentioned that a few dozen people are still getting magazines from their ancestors' original eternal sub.


National Geographic offers this too... a buddy of mine received lifetime as a gift some years back. I'm not sure if they've discontinued it by now, but at least they offered it a lot more recently than the 20s. I don't think it's transferable though.

Here's a link... http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/217.html It's $850.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> Given how buggy first releases of dvr's have been from every company making them, how long will you wait after the OCAP box is released before buying one? That might be more important than when it is released. And then there is my local cable company that will act like the new box is from Mars...


well can not answer to buggy or not though history dictates that early adopters best be ready for bugs 

as to from Mars. Comcast is working this tru2way as somehwat more than just renamed OCAP but creating standards that all the cable cos will use through agreement with cable labs. This is the next extension of the TiVo/Comcast partnership and Comcast hopes to use this to keep the feds off the cable industry's back. That should be enough of a carrot/stick to get the other cable cos out there to work with this and at its heart it is OCAP like they use already.


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## PPC1 (Sep 16, 2006)

bicker said:


> And they get some good PR out of doing so, but the law is very clear: Contracts without specific time durations are unenforcible.


Where do you get this stuff? Of course they are enforceable, particularly where one side has already performed its end of the bargain.

It is true that in some juridictions, contracts of indefinite period often are treated as terminable at will-- but often that is where both sides to the contract have ongoing obligations. Court's can also find an implied term of a reasonable duration, whatever that means in the context of the particular contract. Perhaps you mean to say that court's will not permit perpetual contracts. That's not true either. While there clearly is a strong preference against perpetual contracts, if the terms explicitly call for a perpetual contract, many jurisdictions will permit it. (e.g. _Delta Services & Equipment v. Ryko Mfg. Co._, 908 F.2d 7, 9 (5th Cir.1990);_Bell v. Leven_ 120 Nev. 388, 90 P.3d 1286 (Nev. 2004). _Paul Gabrilis, Inc. v. Dahl_, 154 Or.App. 388, 961 P.2d 865, 868 (1998); _Preferred Phys. Mut. v. Risk Retention Etc._, 961 S.W.2d 100, 103 (Mo.Ct.App.1998).

I suspect, however, that the original Time Magazine subscription contract had a very specific duration: "as long as the company is still publishing the magazine." In the case of TiVo's life time subscription, the terms are similarly specific-- the duration is the lifetime of the equipment. Such terms are more than specific enough to enforce. Moreover, given that the customer has already performed by paying the initial fee, even if the court were to reject a contract theory, the court's would have no difficulty with some type of quasi-contract, or equitable theory.


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## dorian (Feb 16, 2008)

HiDefGator said:


> Given how buggy first releases of dvr's have been from every company making them, how long will you wait after the OCAP box is released before buying one? That might be more important than when it is released. And then there is my local cable company that will act like the new box is from Mars...


Some folks always seek the newest, latest, and greates. Early adopters are a necessary part of the hi-tech world as no amount of QA can wring out all of the bugs, regardless of the tenacity. QA cannot even imagine some of the things that early adopters often consider routine.

By the same notion, I'm astounded by the number of people that still have an 8 year old first generation Tivo box and are pissed off because the updates don't come often enough.

No matter how Tivo address new technology, there will be plenty of folks around to complain. I'll upgrade to the newer generation box when the one I have falls way behind technology (or breaks beyond repair). But there will be plenty of early adopters to wring out a lot of the bugs in the mean time.


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

grantsa4 said:


> When does everyone think this new box will come out - 2009, 2010?


Cable Card rental fee for OCAP Boxes, $19.95 a month (additional tuner charge may apply)


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

SugarBowl said:


> Cable Card rental fee for OCAP Boxes, $19.95 a month (additional tuner charge may apply)


What are you talking about?


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## edrock200 (Feb 7, 2002)

CharlesH said:


> The cable companies are adamant that they want to control the UI that presents VOD and PPV and perhaps other pay services to customers. Thus the dual-mode (TiVo, Tru2Way) idea for the S4. SDV is different in that there is no UI component particular to it beyond the old-fashioned changing of channels; it is just some additional back-end protocol, invisible to the customer, that is needed to support changing channels.


Thanks for explaining. I'm no developer, but I wonder if the TivoHD has the processing power to run Tru2Way in VM. The dongle would provide the 2-way communication.

Again, I realize that this has about 0% chance of happening, still would be cool though.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

edrock200 said:


> Thanks for explaining. I'm no developer, but I wonder if the TivoHD has the processing power to run Tru2Way in VM. The dongle would provide the 2-way communication.
> 
> Again, I realize that this has about 0% chance of happening, still would be cool though.


the amount of workl to cobble that into Series 3 versus all the work to do on series 4. Eh. The only thing you miss is 
PPV/VOD on the series 3. I doubt it would be wrth the investment to TiVo who would rather just sell Series 4 boxes.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the amount of workl to cobble that into Series 3 versus all the work to do on series 4. Eh. The only thing you miss is
> PPV/VOD on the series 3. I doubt it would be wrth the investment to TiVo who would rather just sell Series 4 boxes.


While I might end up buying one of these mythical Series 4 boxes, it'll only be because they're what's available, not because I would care to give even the slightest amount of extra money to anyone to support iPPV or VOD. If I wanted PPV, I could call in my order (or order online) with my current boxes.

Too bad running the OCAP stack will inevitably force TiVo to charge more for this S4 box than they would otherwise have to.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

would tru2way boxes still require a cable card installation?


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## brianric (Aug 29, 2002)

dorian said:


> By the same notion, I'm astounded by the number of people that still have an 8 year old first generation Tivo box and are pissed off because the updates don't come often enough.
> 
> No matter how Tivo address new technology, there will be plenty of folks around to complain. I'll upgrade to the newer generation box when the one I have falls way behind technology (or breaks beyond repair). But there will be plenty of early adopters to wring out a lot of the bugs in the mean time.


Talk to a Replay owner about updates (there aren't any). I have two Replays and one Series 2 Tivo. I'm debating whether to wait for a Series 4 or get Tivo HD. Replay is dead, I'm glad Tivo is still innovating.


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

ciper said:


> I hate you Tivo. Thanks for confirming that "lifetime" doesn't mean the same to you as is does to the consumer.
> 
> I think its not wrong to extrapolate that we will not see any updates to units that are approaching the 54 month mark. Considering the already known code release schedule of Tivo It seems that 3.5 years might be the maximum span of time we can expect updates.


I guess you don't understand much about accounting.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

BlackBetty said:


> would tru2way boxes still require a cable card installation?


So far, it appears yes.

There is supposedly a technology where the 3rd party box has a "field programmable" security chip in it, where the provider can send a program to it for their authorization system, but I don't believe it is ready, or nobody wants to use it.


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## QZ1 (Mar 24, 2003)

BlackBetty said:


> would tru2way boxes still require a cable card installation?


Yes. OCAP + CC = 'tru2way'.

In the future, MSOs and CEs hope to implement OCAP though DCAS, which I would call 'tru2way plug 'n play'.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

RBlount said:


> This a minor change, but will result in Tivo recognizing less revenue per month per lifetime subscriber.


It will also make Tivo appear to have more active subscribers than it really does. Since dead lifetime boxes will now stay on the list for an additional year rather than being dropped at 48 months if they have stopped calling in.

I wonder which reason made them do it?

1. Accounting accuracy that delays the revenue they can count. 
2. Slowing the subscriber decay they have been seeing.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

HiDefGator said:


> It will also make Tivo appear to have more active subscribers than it really does. Since dead lifetime boxes will now stay on the list for an additional year rather than being dropped at 48 months if they have stopped calling in.
> 
> I wonder which reason made them do it?
> 
> ...


The Lifetime accounting is somewhat arbitrary within limits to show how the co is doing via revenue, but as to the number of subscribers, as long as a Lifetime TiVo calls in once each 6 months that TiVo is most likely registered for ad purposes etc. If you get (in the mail) a magazine that you don't read you are still counted a subscriber for ad purposes etc. Lifetime TiVos probably have a low decay rate because of the value, TiVo will fix/replace a broken Lifetime TiVo for a fixed $150 against the $399 cost for lifetime Service. I would bet a Series 1 owner with Lifetime Service would get a Series 2 (or better) for the $150. You do get to keep the Lifetime Service on the TiVo replacement.


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