# MCE vs TiVo (relevant with Ceton CableCard 4-tuner device)



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

With the 4-tuner Ceton card announced to be retailing at $400  and the relaxed DRM rules this has re-awakened potential of replacing my 2 TiVo S3 solution with Windows Media Center + 4-tuner CableCard Ceton card. I don't really want to rehash here the whole cost analysis here from previous threads but now I'm really starting to look into capabilities of MCE software vs. TiVo software.
There are obvious advantages of using PC based solution for other uses besides core DVR functionality which makes this attractive, but focusing on core DVR functionality it would be nice to compile a list of advantages/disadvantages of MCE vs TiVo series 3. If there is already a comprehensive comparison of the two a link would be great.

Here's a few to get things started:

TUNERS & SCHEDULING
I think it's pretty clear that with MCE + Ceton being able to schedule directly across 4 tuners is clearly superior than having to manage 2 separate TiVos with no co-operative scheduling support.

ADVANCED WISHLISTS
One thing that seems to stick out right away is I'm not sure that MCE has Advanced Wishlist capabilities. For example a wishlist that records only new Lakers games on any HD channel they happen to air is something I can do very easily with TiVo, but it's unclear if I can do that in MCE.

MULTI ROOM VIEWING
I think there's little doubt here that MCE wins hands down here since with Extenders you are able to watch CCI protected recordings.

OFFLOADING RECORDINGS
I think there's little doubt here that MCE is a superior solution for offloading recordings to other devices now with the relaxed DRM. The recordings already reside on a computer so you can skip the lengthy process of downloading them from TiVo 1st.

SUGGESTIONS
Suggestions I don't use or care about so that is not a factor for me but I suppose it would be for others.

RECORDINGS LIST
I'm not too familiar with MCE so don't know how easy it is to organize list of recordings but I imagine it must be more flexible than TiVo's limited folder support?

bkdtv is clearly the expert at compiling these kinds of comparisons so I'm hoping perhaps he can provide a much more comprehensive comparison than I could ever do...


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

I use both TiVo S3 and Media Center side by side. Media Center records all of the unencrypted broadcast programming and I use TiVo for other programs. Adding cable card support would be the death knell for TiVo in my house. No reason to pay monthly TiVo fees anymore.

Having the ability for truly huge storage capacity is also a big bonus on the Media Center side.

Having a real processor behind the interface is great. Things are much more responsive and title searches are very very fast.

The extremely limited ad placement (mostly in the form of music streaming options) is very appealing as well.

Have numerous streaming options on the PC - but you have to leave the Media Center interface for most of them.

Zoom/deinterlacing is much better on the PC. Doesn't seem to do inverse telecine and drop down to 24hz though.

Having an RF remote control is also a huge bonus.

The computer goes to sleep when not in use saving on electricity a bit.

That said, Media Center does lack in a few ways. The program list just sucks. TiVo's date sorted list with folders is perfect. I'm not sure what the Media Center developers were thinking as it doesn't handle more than a few programs well. When you group by title/show it alphabetizes the list... Which stinks because you don't know which show folders were added to recently.

There's no wish list capability... However the nice thing about Media Center is that someone would write one! So additional capabilities are possible.

That's my take on the two. I really am waiting for this card to come out and drop TiVo ASAP.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Thanks for the feedback.

After some searching around I see that there are MCE plugins available to enhance library browser such as described here.

Hopefully there is some kind of wishlist plugin as well as that would be a major pain to revert back to searching for things to schedule all the time instead of having it all automated.


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## Scyber (Apr 25, 2002)

Didn't alot of companies discontinue their Media Center Extenders? I know linksys and HP both dropped their products in '09. So outside of the Xbox, they might be hard to find. Although there could be a whole bunch of new ones announced this weekend at CES.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Scyber said:


> Didn't alot of companies discontinue their Media Center Extenders? I know linksys and HP both dropped their products in '09. So outside of the Xbox, they might be hard to find. Although there could be a whole bunch of new ones announced this weekend at CES.


 Yes, that is an issue. Currently aside from xbox360 there aren't really a whole lot of choices. Supposedly you can pick up xbox360s from Ebay around $150 price range but I'm also waiting to see if CES reveals other options since I don't like the Ebay route for purchases of used hardware.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

Scyber said:


> Didn't alot of companies discontinue their Media Center Extenders? I know linksys and HP both dropped their products in '09. So outside of the Xbox, they might be hard to find. Although there could be a whole bunch of new ones announced this weekend at CES.


I'm pretty sure that MCE can stream to xbox and PS3.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

Anyone know if MCE supports SDV?


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## bluetex (Apr 24, 2005)

I've been toiling with a bit of this dilemma as well. I don't think I'm QUITE ready to kick the S3 out of the living room yet, but I did add a MCE computer.

A couple of things I like that the MCE does.

1. I can have a "library" of ISOs (mymovies.dk), MP4s, and MPGs all streamable to the XBOX 360 extenders (of which I have 2).
2. I can also "attach" using a PC (laptop XP, vista or 7) to play the same files from those devices.

Things TiVo S3 does that MCE can't... (those mentioned before), + set recording from the web.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

JWThiers said:


> Anyone know if MCE supports SDV?


 Yes. Windows 7 MCE has both relaxed DRM and SDV support via Tuning Adapters.
Relaxed DRM means that CCI=0x0 recordings can be transferred or viewed on any device or computer. (Recordings with CCI=0x2 can still be viewed on approved extenders such as xbox360 but cannot be transferred).


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

JWThiers said:


> I'm pretty sure that MCE can stream to xbox and PS3.


The Xbox360 is the only supported Media Center extender. You can stream unencrypted content to the PS3 via the PS3's own interface, but you can't browse the guide, recorded list, or schedule recordings as you can on the Xbox360. The Xbox360 is also the only box (aside from discontinued extenders) that can view copy protected content.



moyekj said:


> ADVANCED WISHLISTS
> One thing that seems to stick out right away is I'm not sure that MCE has Advanced Wishlist capabilities. For example a wishlist that records only new Lakers games on any HD channel they happen to air is something I can do very easily with TiVo, but it's unclear if I can do that in MCE.


Wishlist-type functionality was very limited in Windows Vista, but was _greatly_ enhanced in Windows 7. You pick whether you want to record by actor, director, movie title, program title, or generic keyword, and then you are able tie that to a category. As on TiVo, you can set first-run only, new and repeat, etc. Unlike TiVo, you can also pick a subset of channels from which to record.



moyekj said:


> RECORDINGS LIST
> I'm not too familiar with MCE so don't know how easy it is to organize list of recordings but I imagine it must be more flexible than TiVo's limited folder support?


Windows 7 only allows you to folderize recorded programs when you sort by name. It won't folderize anything when you sort by date.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Thanks for the comments bkdtv.


bkdtv said:


> Wishlist-type functionality was very limited in Windows Vista, but it was greatly enhanced in Windows 7. You pick whether you want to record by actor, director, movie title, program title, or generic keyword, and then you are able tie that to a category. As on TiVo, you can set first-run only, new and repeat, etc. Unlike TiVo, you can also pick a subset of channels from which to record.


 Does it have boolean logic operations available though? For example on TiVo I setup title keyword of NBA Basketball for narrowing down to NBA games and then further narrow things down with a keyword for Lakers. Is there some method of narrowing down to first run only recordings of specific teams in NBA, NFL, etc. via MCE?



bkdtv said:


> Windows 7 only allows you to folderize recorded programs when you sort by name. It won't folderize anything when you sort by date.


 Problem with that though is it then sorts alphabetically episodes under each folder instead of leaving them as sorted by recording time. It appears as though there may be plugins to enhance Program Library viewing so this may not be a big deal but I don't know for sure.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

Silicon Dust is planning to release a version of their networked HDHomerun tuner that supports decryption via cablecard and (supposedly) sharing of the tuners among multiple devices. Depending on the copy protection flagging in your cable system, this would let you use a PC as a client system, watching shared recordings from the server and using the networked tuner for live TV. It wouldn't be a real client-server setting since you wouldn't have an integrated integrated guide,etc.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Scyber said:


> Although there could be a whole bunch of new ones announced this weekend at CES.


I expect new Windows Media Center extenders will be announced tonight here from Vegas.

And speaking of CES, my briefing with TiVo requires a NDA so it's probably safe to assume the TiVo Premiere and DirecTV TiVo box announcements won't be made this week. Which is OK, there's a lot of vendors competing for attention (noise). Probably better to do it when you have the floor to yourself. (But I am bummed my pal TiVoShanan isn't in attendance. What's that all about??)


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

moyekj said:


> Thanks for the comments bkdtv.
> Does it have boolean logic operations available though? For example on TiVo I setup title keyword of NBA Basketball for narrowing down to NBA games and then further narrow things down with a keyword for Lakers. Is there some method of narrowing down to first run only recordings of specific teams in NBA, NFL, etc. via MCE?


There are no boolean operators and you can't combine multiple input fields (such as a title keyword and keyword) as you can on the TiVo. The only thing you can combine with an actor, director, movie title, program title, or generic keyword is a category.

I'm not certain whether Windows7's "program title" keyword also applies to episode names, as "title keyword" does on the TiVo. It may not.

You should be able to setup a generic keyword recording for "Los Angeles Lakers" and tie it to the category of sports event.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> There are no boolean operators and you can't combine multiple input fields (such as a title keyword and keyword) as you can on the TiVo. The only thing you can combine with an actor, director, movie title, program title, or generic keyword is a category.
> 
> I'm not certain whether Windows7's "program title" keyword also applies to episode names, as "title keyword" does on the TiVo. It may not.
> 
> You should be able to setup a generic keyword recording for "Los Angeles Lakers" and tie it to the category of sports event.


 OK thanks. That still wouldn't be good enough as that would record airings of older games not related to current season. At least on TiVo "NBA Basketball" narrows it down to new NBA games and then further logic narrows it down to a specific team. It sounds like TiVo is still the Wishlist king and it will be hard to duplicate that functionality in pretty much any other non-TiVo solution.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> TUNERS & SCHEDULING
> I think it's pretty clear that with MCE + Ceton being able to schedule directly across 4 tuners is clearly superior than having to manage 2 separate TiVos with no co-operative scheduling support.


Just remember that it is four tuners per type.

This means four cablecard PLUS four ClearQAM PLUS four analog PLUS four ATSC. This means that you can theoretically have a 16 tuner whole house DVR server.

ATSC/ClearQAM tuner sticks are cheap, internal cards are also cheap (I picked up three from woot). That takes care of broadcast primetime, plus the freedom to watch additional live streams on different TVs or record digital cable. This is going to rock.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

moyekj said:


> OK thanks. That still wouldn't be good enough as that would record airings of older games not related to current season. At least on TiVo "NBA Basketball" narrows it down to new NBA games and then further logic narrows it down to a specific team. It sounds like TiVo is still the Wishlist king and it will be hard to duplicate that functionality in pretty much any other non-TiVo solution.


Are there a lot of "classic" LAL games flagged as first-run on your RSN? You could limit the record channels to TNT, NBC, your RSNs, and ESPN, ESPN2.

But yes, TiVo is still the king when it comes to advanced wishlists.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Are there a lot of "classic" LAL games flagged as first-run on your RSN? You could limit the record channels to TNT, NBC, your RSNs, and ESPN, ESPN2.
> 
> But yes, TiVo is still the king when it comes to advanced wishlists.


 Not only on RSNs but a couple of the regional OTA channels as well which sometimes exclusively carry some games. i.e. Same channels that carry some real games also have the "classic" games occasionally.
IMO the advanced wishlists was by far one of the greatest improvements TiVo made over the last couple of years and may be the one feature that makes me want to keep at least 1 TiVo around. I don't know if Myth or some of the other HTPC software solutions have better capabilities in this regard but I doubt it.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

moyekj said:


> Yes. Windows 7 MCE has both relaxed DRM and SDV support via Tuning Adapters.
> Relaxed DRM means that CCI=0x0 recordings can be transferred or viewed on any device or computer. (Recordings with CCI=0x2 can still be viewed on approved extenders such as xbox360 but cannot be transferred).





bkdtv said:


> The Xbox360 is the only supported Media Center extender. You can stream unencrypted content to the PS3 via the PS3's own interface, but you can't browse the guide, recorded list, or schedule recordings as you can on the Xbox360. The Xbox360 is also the only box (aside from discontinued extenders) that can view copy protected content.


Thanks for the info, I was hoping to get rid of the TA. I might have to consider this as a possible option. I assume that another MCE PC is also an approved extender. I'll have to get an OTA tuner to mess around with the MCE interface some.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

JWThiers said:


> Thanks for the info, I was hoping to get rid of the TA. I might have to consider this as a possible option. I assume that another MCE PC is also an approved extender. I'll have to get an OTA tuner to mess around with the MCE interface some.


 I'm not absolutely sure if another MCE PC is an approved extender but I think it's actually not. i.e. For CCI=0x2 recordings you won't be able play them back on another computer with MCE - they can only play back on original machine they were recorded on or with an "approved" extender such as xbox. For CCI=0x0 recordings another MCE PC I think works fine.
Personally though I wouldn't want a bulky/noisy PC beside each TV so I have a preference for smaller form factor extenders (xbox360 is overkill as an extender though and I would rather have a dedicated MCE extender only for <= $100 at each TV).


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

moyekj said:


> I'm not absolutely sure if another MCE PC is an approved extender but I think it's actually not. i.e. For CCI=0x2 recordings you won't be able play them back on another computer with MCE - they can only play back on original machine they were recorded on or with an "approved" extender such as xbox. For CCI=0x0 recordings another MCE PC I think works fine.
> Personally though I wouldn't want a bulky/noisy PC beside each TV so I have a preference for smaller form factor extenders (xbox360 is overkill as an extender though and I would rather have a dedicated MCE extender only for <= $100 at each TV).


That's a shame about another MCE not being an approved extender. But you might want to think again about the PC being bulky and noisy. Check the Lenovo Q110 nettop mentioned here being used as a HTPC. I have also heard, (but will have to dig around for) another nettop with the Ion chip set that can be mounted to a standard VESA mount on the back of flat panels.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> I'm not absolutely sure if another MCE PC is an approved extender but I think it's actually not. i.e. For CCI=0x2 recordings you won't be able play them back on another computer with MCE - they can only play back on original machine they were recorded on or with an "approved" extender such as xbox. For CCI=0x0 recordings another MCE PC I think works fine.
> Personally though I wouldn't want a bulky/noisy PC beside each TV so I have a preference for smaller form factor extenders (xbox360 is overkill as an extender though and I would rather have a dedicated MCE extender only for <= $100 at each TV).


Media center PCs can't be extenders in a true sense, but you can add their shared folders to your recorded TV library. They will work provided the CCI byte is 0x0.

In other words, you can share recordings but you can't stream live TV like a true extender can.

My plan is one HTPC with 4 CableCARD tuners and 4 ClearQAM tuners and extenders for the other TVs. We have two HDTVs currently but we may get a third and a fourth later on.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Understood, but even "netbook" computers are overkill for the sole purpose of serving as an extender, and you would want one with HDMI capabilities and decent decoding capabilities which limits your choices and probably makes the price higher than you would like to the point where xbox360 may be the better choice.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Raj said:


> Media center PCs can't be extenders in a true sense, but you can add their shared folders to your recorded TV library. They will work provided the CCI byte is 0x0.
> 
> In other words, you can share recordings but you can't stream live TV like a true extender can.


 Yes, that jives with my understanding as well. CCI=0x2 recordings wouldn't really bother me as for my headend that is only premium channels which I don't subscribe to anyway. However live TV viewing would be a requirement for some of my family members (not me as I never watch live TV anyway). Also I'm not sure if time-shifted viewing of shows still recording would work with non-true extenders. That is a requirement of mine as well, especially for long sports recordings and is actually something that I can't do now with TiVo solution (i.e. you can't MRV shows that are still recording, so I have to go sit in front of the TiVo it's recording on to do that).


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

moyekj said:


> Understood, but even "netbook" computers are overkill for the sole purpose of serving as an extender, and you would want one with HDMI capabilities and decent decoding capabilities which limits your choices and probably makes the price higher than you would like to the point where xbox360 may be the better choice.


Here we go found one on amazon for $377.44. Compared to Xbox 360 elite for $379.75. Price is a push but would be willing to bet the nettop uses less power and can be mounted on the back of the TV. With the xbox you do get a pretty good game console. As far as the decoding goes I have heard the ion chipset does decent 1080p. It does depend on your specific wants and needs but if you are looking for a dvr and are considering MCE the these nettops could be a good choice.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

JWThiers said:


> Here we go found one on amazon for $377.44. Compared to Xbox 360 elite for $379.75. Price is a push but would be willing to bet the nettop uses less power and can be mounted on the back of the TV. With the xbox you do get a pretty good game console. As far as the decoding goes I have heard the ion chipset does decent 1080p. It does depend on your specific wants and needs but if you are looking for a dvr and are considering MCE the these nettops could be a good choice.


I was thinking about used xbox360s in ~ $150 range as the rough price point comparison. ~ $400 is way too high for an extender and for a whole house server I would not want to go with a netbook. Fine if you already have one, but seeing as I don't have anything right now I wouldn't plan to add a netbook into the mix.


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## bluetex (Apr 24, 2005)

JWThiers said:


> Here we go found one on amazon for $377.44. Compared to Xbox 360 elite for $379.75. Price is a push but would be willing to bet the nettop uses less power and can be mounted on the back of the TV. With the xbox you do get a pretty good game console. As far as the decoding goes I have heard the ion chipset does decent 1080p. It does depend on your specific wants and needs but if you are looking for a dvr and are considering MCE the these nettops could be a good choice.


not that you need any more arguments for a nettop.. but they also don't RROD (red ring of death) in 20+% of their units.


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## txporter (Sep 18, 2006)

Depending on your home layout, you might be better off going with a HDMI distribution amp and ignore the need for extenders. The upfront cost might be a little steep (less if you can drop the lines yourself), but then you aren't limited so much. Whatever you get for your media center (Tivo, HTPC, etc etc) can be sent to your other TVs and you can just use IR repeaters or RF remotes.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

txporter said:


> Depending on your home layout, you might be better off going with a HDMI distribution amp and ignore the need for extenders. The upfront cost might be a little steep (less if you can drop the lines yourself), but then you aren't limited so much. Whatever you get for your media center (Tivo, HTPC, etc etc) can be sent to your other TVs and you can just use IR repeaters or RF remotes.


 But then you are still limited to 1 stream at a time - the HDMI output of the HTPC itself. With true extenders that is not the case of course.


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## txporter (Sep 18, 2006)

moyekj said:


> But then you are still limited to 1 stream at a time - the HDMI output of the HTPC itself. With true extenders that is not the case of course.


Ah, interesting. I have never looked into extenders. I guess we don't watch different programming very often. That never occurred to me.  We have 4 tivos so it is possible to watch different shows, but we almost always just watch one thing throughout the house.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

moyekj said:


> I was thinking about used xbox360s in ~ $150 range as the rough price point comparison. ~ $400 is way too high for an extender and for a whole house server I would not want to go with a netbook. Fine if you already have one, but seeing as I don't have anything right now I wouldn't plan to add a netbook into the mix.


If you are just looking at an extender sure, but with the HTPC you could also use it as an additional DVR, surf the net, etc. Personnally, IF I were to go with a whole house server HTPC and wanted to go cheap, I would drop cable TV altogether, use these nettops to get internet content (Hulu, amazon, netflix etc) and record OTA and possibly set up a regular destop with 3 or 4 tuners as sort of a catch all. Since OTA is the CCI byte is 0x0 no problem with streaming content from any machine, all have access to the net so hulu amazon, netflix etc. is available everywhere. they have no subscription like tivo and they are more energy efficient.

Like I said it depends on your specific wants and needs. If you are looking for just an extender...



davezatz said:


> I expect new Windows Media Center extenders will be announced tonight here from Vegas.


I also wouldn't be surprised by this and they are probably less expensive than an xbox arcade or used xbox.


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

JWThiers said:


> ... I would drop cable TV altogether, use these nettops to get internet content (Hulu, amazon, netflix etc) and record OTA and possibly set up a regular destop with 3 or 4 tuners as sort of a catch all. ...


This is exactly the setup I had until I moved to a location where OTA wasn't possible. (Sadly enough it's only 25 miles from the towers.) I had Media Center set up with an antenna and ran that into two Hauppauge HVR-2250 (two ATSC/QAM tuners each) for four tuners.

I missed a few channels but it met my needs for basic entertainment. The three channels I actually use aren't worth a $60/month cable bill to me. OTA HD digital is truly wonderful.

I had no monthly fees to either TiVo or my local cable provider. It was great saving over $1,000 a year.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

fyodor said:


> Silicon Dust is planning to release a version of their networked HDHomerun tuner that supports decryption via cablecard


Are you sure this will be a networked tuner? I have a hard time believing that CableLabs will certify such an open device. Unless you hear something differently, all I know is that Nick posted a screenshot in the forums indicating CableCARD support in _something_ but he didn't say what. It would be exciting if there was a CableCARD HDHomerun though. That would change things drastically.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> I was thinking about used xbox360s in ~ $150 range as the rough price point comparison.


Just be careful. A lot of those are banned XBoxes which won't work as extenders.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Raj said:


> Are you sure this will be a networked tuner? I have a hard time believing that CableLabs will certify such an open device. Unless you hear something differently, all I know is that Nick posted a screenshot in the forums indicating CableCARD support in _something_ but he didn't say what. It would be exciting if there was a CableCARD HDHomerun though. That would change things drastically.


Yes it would, including the possibility of using Myth or some other HTPC platform (Sage, BeyondTV, GBPVR, etc). Sage has decent extenders too.

Very interesting.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Raj said:


> Are you sure this will be a networked tuner?


The press release calls it a networked tuner.



> Silicondust USA, Inc. announces First Network Attached Dual Digital Tuner with CableCARD™ Support
> 
> LAS VEGAS, NV - Jan. 7, 2010 - Silicondust USA, INC., based in Livermore, CA, today announced the development of their latest addition to the HDHomeRun® product line, by adding the First Network Attached TV tuner with CableCARD™ Support, for PCs with Windows7 Windows Media Center. Computer network environments incorporating the HDHomeRun® CableCARD™ will be able to support high-definition and other digital TV including premium cable channels, eliminating the need for a cable set-top box.
> 
> ...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I've been using an HTPC for about three years now and I've been anxiously awaiting the release of the new Ceton CableCARD quad tuner. I have next to no experience with MCE as I've been using BeyondTV on an XP Pro HTPC for my OTA recording chores. I do intent to update my HTPC with Win 7 so I can use the Ceton tuner when it becomes available. I will probably also use BeyondTV to continue recording from my six ATSC tuners along with the four CableCARD tuners mated with FIOS.

There are lots of small form factor PCs entering the market using the Intel Atom processors and the new AMD low power CPUs. One of the latest AMD-based models is the Dell Inspiron 400 (aka the Zino HD). I just picked one up during Dell's Black Friday sale and it's an awesome little machine. It's only about 12-inches square and is only about 5-inches tall. I can record shows via my HDHomeRun and stream ripped Blu-Ray movies from my unRAID server. I got the 6850e 1.8GHz dual core CPU upgrade as well as the 4330 graphics upgrade. My final price was about $300 after Bing cashback. Here's a link to a blog written by an AMD employee that hangs out at the Home Theater Computer section of the AVS Forums:

http://blogs.amd.com/home/ - check out the in-depth review of the Zino HD

Here's a link to the Dell Zino HD webpage:

http://www.dell.com/us/en/home/desktops/inspiron-zino-hd/pd.aspx?refid=inspiron-zino-hd&s=dhs&cs=19

For more info on Windows Media Center, here are two essential websites I would highly recommend to anyone:

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/default.aspx - The Green Button Forums - for everything Media Center related

http://www.hack7mc.com/ - Hacking Windows 7 Media Center - for customizing MC to suit your tastes


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## bluetex (Apr 24, 2005)

Raj said:


> Just be careful. A lot of those are banned XBoxes which won't work as extenders.


That's a very valid concern. I chose to get a 2nd Xbox 360 from microcenter.com .. they have refurb "core" systems for $150 which come with everything (controller, power brick, cables) and a 20gb harddrive.

They ARE refur'd however -- so you may be better off with a brand new Xbox 360 Arcade which can be found in the $175 range now -- $25 for a 3 yr warranty against RRoD with a smaller HD, easy tradeoffs if you're only looking for an extender.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

SullyND said:


> The press release calls it a networked tuner.


Good to know. The press release came out today.

With only two tuners I think I will pass in favor of the Ceton but the price point is decent enough for a lot of people.


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## armstrda (Mar 22, 2009)

JWThiers said:


> Here we go found one on amazon for $377.44. Compared to Xbox 360 elite for $379.75. Price is a push but would be willing to bet the nettop uses less power and can be mounted on the back of the TV. With the xbox you do get a pretty good game console. As far as the decoding goes I have heard the ion chipset does decent 1080p. It does depend on your specific wants and needs but if you are looking for a dvr and are considering MCE the these nettops could be a good choice.


Not sure why you would say the xbox is $380. It retails for 299.99 now for elite, or 199 for arcade (both can be used as full fledged extenders - I'm running them now). 
http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Elit..._1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1262912740&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Arca..._2?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1262912740&sr=1-2


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

I think that the discontinued linksys extenders are still out there (DMA2100/2200). They have issues with some file formats and I've heard complaints about speed/responsiveness, but you can use them for live and recorded TV

F


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I see that with xbox360 you need a Live Gold membership (with monthly charges) in order to use Netflix Streaming which kind of blows... I know one can stream Netflix to a PC but the quality is horrendous when doing so that way so that's not really a viable alternative. So to me this is another strike against dropping TiVo completely. As much as the TiVo/Netflix implementation is flawed at least when it works the quality is very good.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

SullyND said:


> The press release calls it a networked tuner.


Damn it, still requires 7MC to work but I'm sure that's because of the DRM. Oh well, at least you'll be able to access it with multiple PCs, so it kind of gets around the extender issue if you don't mind using PCs.

But dual tuner only? Why would I want to pay for another cableCard outlet if I want more than two tuners, especially when Ceton is about to release a 4-tuner card? And when the CC itself can decode 6 streams?

C'mon SiliconDust, go farther.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

moyekj said:


> I see that with xbox360 you need a Live Gold membership (with monthly charges) in order to use Netflix Streaming which kind of blows... I know one can stream Netflix to a PC but the quality is horrendous when doing so that way so that's not really a viable alternative. So to me this is another strike against dropping TiVo completely. As much as the TiVo/Netflix implementation is flawed at least when it works the quality is very good.


Live Gold can be had for under $40 a year, so it's not a significant expense unless you want to run a bunch of extenders.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Live Gold can be had for under $40 a year, so it's not a significant expense unless you want to run a bunch of extenders.


 But one the biggest reasons for doing away with TiVo to me is to avoid recurring charges (or lifetime service tied to a particular box). I suppose $40/year is really not too bad (plus Netflix charges of course) but it is another factor to keep in mind if you use Netflix streaming.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

moyekj said:


> But one the biggest reasons for doing away with TiVo to me is to avoid recurring charges (or lifetime service tied to a particular box). I suppose $40/year is really not too bad (plus Netflix charges of course) but it is another factor to keep in mind if you use Netflix streaming.


If you're not tied to getting it in HD, you can use the Xbox360's UPNP client functionality to get netflix through Playon Media Server and not have to pay for the Xbox subscription.


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## Scyber (Apr 25, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Damn it, still requires 7MC to work but I'm sure that's because of the DRM. Oh well, at least you'll be able to access it with multiple PCs, so it kind of gets around the extender issue if you don't mind using PCs.
> 
> But dual tuner only? Why would I want to pay for another cableCard outlet if I want more than two tuners, especially when Ceton is about to release a 4-tuner card? And when the CC itself can decode 6 streams?
> 
> C'mon SiliconDust, go farther.


The Ceton tuner is 60% more expensive than the new HDHomerun. So it is not surprising that it has more features. I'm sure silicondust could have made a 4 tuner model, but that would have probably hit a price point that they didn't think was viable.


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

When it comes to network tuners don't forget about the bandwidth involved. Four simultaneous HD streams on most people's home networks will bring them to their knees - or more likely simply not work.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

4 simultaneous HD streams would be less than 60mbps per HDHomerun (on average) so it would not saturate a 100mbps switch. GigE is cheap nowadays, not to mention included with all new PCs.

SiliconDust needs to take better advantage of what a Cablecard can decode. I understand that the Ceton card will cost more, but it's not 100&#37; more. I could live with a 4-tuner HDHomerun at the same price point ($400), but perhaps they don't see enough buyers for that.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

So now HDHomerun Prime 3x CableCard tuner is slated for release soon for $249, a pretty attractive price for 3 tuners (making it less than $100 per tuner). Since connections are via network it can be used in more PCs such as notebooks rather than just PCs with available PCIe slot. So that seems to stack up pretty well against Ceton $400 tuner that is still hard to get. So yet another interesting MCE development to keep an eye on. I am still a little hesitant/skeptical about MCE though due to inadequate MCE extenders and lack of advanced wishlists, but certainly is getting more interesting.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I like tivo better. but i do use wmc to record local ota tv. tivo is faster and its easer to find tv shows. also tivo uses 23 watts and my computer uses 100 watt when idle 20 watts when sleeping.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

The poor choice (and execution) of extenders really hurts MCE, in my opinion. They just can't hold a candle to the flexibility you have with Tivos. If you're lucky to be on a cable system that doesn't protect most content, you can run cheap/silent HTPCs on your TVs to access your recorded content from your main PC, but they won't be extenders.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The weak link in Media Center is definitely the extender. However, if all you want to do is access recorded programs and live TV, an extender will do the job nicely. Getting the hardware to play nice can be a challenge, but if you're a diehard tweaker like myself, it's well worth the effort.

I've had my Ceton InfiniTV 4 for about four months now and it's the best investment I've ever made. I initially had issues with pixelisation on both FIOS TV channels and OTA channels via my HP USB tuners when recording shows. I recently upgraded from an AMD CPU/motherboard with 4GB SDRAM to an Intel CORE i5-660 CPU and motherboard with integrated HD graphics and 8GB of SDRAM. The results are night and day. I no longer have any issues with recorded content and the onboard graphics even bitstream HD audio via HDMI, negating the need for an expensive graphics card or sound card to enable this funtion.

FWIW, I had been using my lifetime S3 Tivo for backing up FIOS recordings due to the initial quality issues I was having. Now, I barely even check my Tivo anymore. I've finally got one box that allows me to do everything I want. If Microsoft would get off their butts and enable extenders to handle more types of video files for playback, it would be the ideal setup for all media.

Tivos are great, but a Media Center PC is far more flexible. The added bells and whistles in a Tivo are mostly useless to me. I don't stream content from NetFlix (I can do this from the HTPC) or Hulu or watch YouTube (again, available from the HTPC). In fact, anything a Tivo has to offer can be accessed from an HTPC and much more. The ability to play Blu-Rays is the one feature Tivo can't match. It's also the one that sold me on HTPCs. The Ceton tuner was just icing on the cake and the final nail in Tivo's coffin.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

An MCE PC is more flexible, yes, but the extenders are not. Playback-wise they suck compared to a Tivo, and that's why a multi-room solution with Tivos can be superior. Plus, Blu-Ray players are cheap now so it's not a big factor.

There is no right or wrong answer here - each approach has it strengths and weaknesses.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> An MCE PC is more flexible, yes, but the extenders are not. Playback-wise they suck compared to a Tivo, and that's why a multi-room solution with Tivos can be superior. Plus, Blu-Ray players are cheap now so it's not a big factor.
> 
> There is no right or wrong answer here - each approach has it strengths and weaknesses.


Aside from the fact that extenders are somewhat limted by the codecs they support, playback is no different than playing a recorded show directly from the host PC. You have full control of all transport functions. You can also pick up a show where you left off in one room and continue viewing it on another TV from the same spot. Picture quality is exactly the same regardless of where you view it. Last time I checked, Tivos also do not support all video formats available, but don't quote me on that as I'm not 100% certain.

With Media Center, you don't have to copy the show to a remote Tivo or extender to watch it. I always felt this was a poor implementation of multi-room viewing on Tivo's part. If your remote Tivo's hard drive is near capacity you're SOL as far as MRV. Tivos are anything but superior in this respect, IMHO. If they were I would have used Tivos throughout my house years ago.

Standalone Blu-Ray players are certainly an option, but it means you have to have physical discs for playback. I rip all of my Blu-Ray movies and DVDs to an unRAID server. The movies can be streamed to any PC in the house via my home network. I hate standalone players because it means you have to wade through all of the crap on the disc before you can actually view the main movie. By ripping the movies to my server I can strip out the unwanted extras and just keep the main movie, soundtracks, and chapter stops. While it may not be an ideal setup, a small media center PC working in conjunction with an extender at each TV would provide access to all forms of media that can be shared with every TV.

Update: I never really looked into media players until I ran across this guide at the missing remote:

http://www.missingremote.com/guide/media-players-comparison

I had been unaware that many of these devices are capable of playing a multitude of video formats, including Blu-Rays and DVDs. One of these would be a perfect companion to a media extender that would allow you full access to shared content across a home network. Newegg has the Patriot Box Office on sale today for $95 with a $45 rebate for a final price of $50 with free shipping. I just ordered one and can't wait to take it for a spin.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

With pyTivo you can play pretty much any video out there on your TiVos all served up from a central PC/server. With a little work you can generate natively compatible Blu Ray video (that plays in native 1080p/24 on Premiere units) without need for transcoding on TiVo as well, and have all TiVo playback trick functions at your disposal, so I don't consider those compelling reasons to switch to MCE. With Premiere units the transfer speeds to/from the unit are quick so no longer an issue either.

The main advantages of MCE to me are:
* All tuners under control of one master scheduler
* Don't have to pay for lifetime service or recurring monthly fees for guide data

But all in all doesn't seem to outweigh some of the disadvantages already discussed in this thread (inadequate extenders, no advanced wishlists, potential hardware and software headaches, dealing with frequent software updates, etc.)

If MCE ever gets hardware that can record natively from encrypted satellite feeds in addition to encrypted cable that it currently supports now that would make for a very compelling and portable solution (independent of TV service provider) that would certainly peak my interest.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

With MCE you don't have to jump through all of the hoops to convert Blu-Rays for use on a Tivo. Extenders aren't perfect, but they do tend to work fairly well for their intended use. You can certainly do many things on a Tivo if you've hacked it, but it tends to involve a lot of extra steps that negates any convenience you might eek out of it. 

I used to hack the crap out of my Tivos until I got tired of having to rehack it every time a new software update was released. It was fun for a while, but it started getting old really fast, especially once I found there were easier and better ways to do the same things on my HTPC.

I just ordered a Patriot Box Office media player from Newegg yesterday. It's supposed to be able to play Blu-Ray isos and DVDs streamed across a network, as well as just about any other video format you can throw at it. In conjunction with a media extender it will allow me to access my entire media library from a remote TV as well as use the tuners in my HTPC.

Now that my HTPC is rock solid and stable, I hardly even access my Tivo anymore. I have deleted all of my season passes on the Tivo and basically it just sits there collecting dust. Once you've gone MCE it's hard to look back.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

He's not talking about hacking the Tivo, pyTivo can be used by anybody. Or kmttg if you want streaming. I use both and they're both great.

One other disadvantage to consider - the MCE guide is not as accurate as Tivo's and MCE will often record repeats when you only want new eps. Don't see Tivo do that very often.

I've tried going with MCE and a couple of extenders (Linksys and Xbox360) and it was very easy to go back to Tivo, for all the reasons mentioned above. The one big advantage of MCE is centralized recording management, but it's not enough for me to switch.

As I've said before, your opinion on MCE vs. Tivo is just that, an opinion. You cannot make a blanket statement that MCE is superior - it entirely depends on you and your family's wants and needs.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

He wasn't talking about hacking to use PyTiVo. He was probably talking about the hacking which I don't think we are allowed to discuss on here which allows some users to actually use MRV. 

I just wish TiVo would incorporate some of the advantages MCE has such as some of their recording options, more than 2 tuners, the fact MCE remembers what it records so it is possible to only record reruns once, etc.


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