# Will tivo work with 'Free' cable (no cable card)?



## hager4283 (Oct 18, 2008)

I recently 'cut the cord' and cancelled our cable tv service. We continue to have our internet service through our cable provider. After a long chatty discussion with the cable tech that came to pick up our equipment, he basically informed me that if I take the cable from the wall and plug it directly into my tv, I'd pick up all of the digital channels. According to him, because I still have internet through them, they haven't yet come up with a way to encrypt the cable service. Sure enough I tried this on two tv's and we get all of the 'cable' channels in SD, and we get the local channels in HD. They are the same number channels as they were when we paid for the service. So my question now - is there a Tivo model that will work with digital cable that doesn't require a cable card? I appreciate any input!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

1. Not really. You may be able to tune them, but without a CableCard, you won't have virtual channel numbers or guide data.

2. If they're not trapping the frequencies out, then they are working to encrypt the channels. It's not that they haven't come up with the technology- Comcast, TWC, and others have been using for years to have an all-digital plant, it just means they haven't implemented it yet, so they will soon. Comcast went through a phase that was maybe 6 months to a year where we could pick stuff up that was above our tier because it was all in the clear. They eventually got everything encrypted, and now there is nothing in the clear.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Some people have had some success buying a cablecard off of ebay (the same brand as the card your cableco uses). The card can't be paired to your cableco account, but it might be able to acquire the cableco's channel mapping and tune channels that are in the clear.

If the channels become encrypted or they put a trap on the line, the card would be useless for sure. But it would be a cheap experiment to try.

Unless something changed and this trick no longer works.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

If the SD channels are analog, then modern TiVos won't be able to tune those since they only have digital tuners now. I think the last TiVo that had an analog tuner was the 2-tuner Premiere. If you want to tune and record those, you'd need to buy a used one on ebay.

As BigJimOutlaw says, you may be able to buy a CableCard off ebay and use it to map the digital channels to the correct channel numbers so that you can get the guide data to line up correctly. For it to work, you would need a CableCard that is the same brand as what your cable company uses in your area (either Motorola/Arris or Cisco/Scientific Atlanta). If you don't know which they use, you could always just buy one of both and try it. There are no guarantees it will work, but other users on the forum have reported success doing it.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

hager4283 said:


> Sure enough I tried this on two tv's and we get all of the 'cable' channels in SD, and we get the local channels in HD. They are the same number channels as they were when we paid for the service.


Like was posted, the two tuner Premiere is the latest model to work with analog. But as for "HD", could you post the call letters and channel number of your CBS HD channel? If this is the same as you had before terminating your cable, I wonder what kind of box your cable company used. Something doesn't add up. Digital channels have decimal points.


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## hager4283 (Oct 18, 2008)

The channels I'm receiving are all digital channels. It says 'digital' right by the channel number when the channel is changed. I have WOW cable and they switched to all digital awhile back (I had an old tivo that I had used since 2004 when we had analog channels). The channels I'm receiving now are the exact same channels I was getting when I paid for the cable service. My tv's get channels 2-193 in SD/480i (with few missing in between) and the CBS, NBC, WWHO, PBS, ABC, FOX in HD/1080i. None of the channels have the decimal after them. 

My local CBS channel is 10 in SD and 201 in HD.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

hager4283 said:


> My local CBS channel is 10 in SD and 201 in HD.


That's a big waste of bandwidth. Most cable companies combine one SD with each HD. But WBNS transmits on channel 21, with WOW converting it to 10. It would be 10.1 if you used an antenna. On 10.2 would be the Decades channel. But the TiVo doesn't care about PSIP, so it will look for it on channel 21 then present it to you on 10.1, so you have a fun problem. Good luck.


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## hager4283 (Oct 18, 2008)

Also, channel 17 is TBS, it says 'analog' by the channel number and does NOT come in. So I'm sure that the cable company is entirely digital.


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## hager4283 (Oct 18, 2008)

Sorry, WBNS


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

hager4283 said:


> Sorry, WBNS


Got it. I guess well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WBNS-TV


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

hager4283 said:


> Also, channel 17 is TBS, it says 'analog' by the channel number and does NOT come in. So I'm sure that the cable company is entirely digital.


But it should still work on your TV. Your lineup: http://www.wowway.com/support/tv/channel-lineups

Any channel over 135 has to be digital. Your WOW web site indicates it does rent cable cards.


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## hager4283 (Oct 18, 2008)

Channel 17 which says 'analog' doesn't come in at all, it's just a static screen. I don't care about this though, as I don't need to watch TBS. Yes, Wow rents cable cards, but I'm not subscribed to their cable services anymore, only internet services. This is why I'm trying to find a dvr that will work without a cable card.

I appreciate all of your feedback


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

For clear digital this one is nice: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-hd...-line-inputs-editing-rec-modes-usb-3-0-a.html

If you can tune it on your TV then it should work. I don't have WOW or know if a Premiere would work with WOW. I do have a 2-tuner Premiere and two channels in clear cable, but my feed has decimal numbers.

Looking at the channel lineup, 17 is missing.


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## hager4283 (Oct 18, 2008)

Thanks for your help!


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

Before I moved and before cox went all digital and encrypted everything, I had my roamio connected to Cox when I had internet only and the clear qam local digital channels came in fine on it. When I went thru guided setup I just selected cable and cox basic and the digital HD locals showed up on the correct 1000 channel numbers except the 2 that were sdv. I had guide info and recorded just fine that way for a month before swapping back to OTA.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Why can't the op just set it up as over the air and run a channel scan using the direct cable feed, just like the tv is doing.


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## hager4283 (Oct 18, 2008)

Does OTA require it being plugged into an HD Antenna?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

schatham said:


> Why can't the op just set it up as over the air and run a channel scan using the direct cable feed, just like the tv is doing.


You still won't get the correct channel map, so the channel numbers won't match up correctly to the guide data. You need a CableCard to do the channel mapping, which is what a CableCard bought off ebay can be used for.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

hager4283 said:


> Sure enough I tried this on two tv's and we get all of the 'cable' channels in SD, and we get the local channels in HD. They are the same number channels as they were when we paid for the service.





tarheelblue32 said:


> You still won't get the correct channel map, so the channel numbers won't match up correctly to the guide data. You need a CableCard to do the channel mapping, which is what a CableCard bought off ebay can be used for.


That doesn't match the first post. I'm unable to explain how this is working, but it's acts like WOW is converting the cable feed to clear QAM and using whole number channel numbers.

Unless I can prove it, I have to accept the OP and take the posts as written. In this case the channel numbers in the guide would match the clear QAM numbers.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

JoeKustra said:


> That doesn't match the first post. I'm unable to explain how this is working, but it's acts like WOW is converting the cable feed to clear QAM and using whole number channel numbers.
> 
> Unless I can prove it, I have to accept the OP and take the posts as written. In this case the channel numbers in the guide would match the clear QAM numbers.


I assume he means that the clear QAM channels are coming in as "15.1" for channel 15. That still isn't good enough. The CableCard has to remap channel 15.1 to channel 15 for the TiVo guide data to line up correctly.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

osu1991 said:


> Before I moved and before cox went all digital and encrypted everything, I had my roamio connected to Cox when I had internet only and the clear qam local digital channels came in fine on it. When I went thru guided setup I just selected cable and cox basic and the digital HD locals showed up on the correct 1000 channel numbers except the 2 that were sdv. I had guide info and recorded just fine that way for a month before swapping back to OTA.


And you had no CableCARD or TA?


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## hager4283 (Oct 18, 2008)

(OP here)

The channels I'm receiving after cancelling my cable services (kept internet service) are IDENTICAL to the channels I received when I had my cable company's DVR. (The only difference is that I do not get HD channels for anything other than the local channels.) The channels are not displaying any decimals. The cable tech told me that they had tried to encrypt it but it screwed something else up for the technicians, so they've shelved that attempt and don't seem to be too concerned with it. So basically, once you've had the cable service, you'll continue to have it by plugging cable from wall to tv, at least until they come up with a way to prohibit it.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

JoeKustra said:


> That doesn't match the first post. I'm unable to explain how this is working, but it's acts like WOW is converting the cable feed to clear QAM and using whole number channel numbers. Unless I can prove it, I have to accept the OP and take the posts as written. In this case the channel numbers in the guide would match the clear QAM numbers.





tarheelblue32 said:


> I assume he means that the clear QAM channels are coming in as "15.1" for channel 15. That still isn't good enough. The CableCard has to remap channel 15.1 to channel 15 for the TiVo guide data to line up correctly.





lpwcomp said:


> And you had no CableCARD or TA?


It is indeed possible. On commercial cable installs like we have at my location, the mso maps the channels to the same channel number and creates a custom lineup where each tv at each location only needs to plug in the tv and run a channel scan which picks up the channels without a box, cablecard or TA.

These custom lineups can indeed be reported to the guide data companies like gracenote and Rovi. I was able to find the same commercial lineup in TiVo's list using a nearby island's zip code. I selected that one when I did guided setup and was able to run my Roamio without a cablecard WITH the guide data properly lined up.

As long as the virtual channels are set in the modulating equipment to the same channel that they actually are transmitted in and are the same in the guide data info, then you'll be fine.

Of course, I have tried the eBay cablecard trick which works as well, if you need the channels to be remapped. A Tuning Adapter also works.

Maybe the OPs cable system is setup similar to a commercial operation? If it's not serving a large area, it's a possibility. Maybe they're not big enough to operate two separate plants, a retail and a commercial, so they use one at can serve both clients?


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

lpwcomp said:


> And you had no CableCARD or TA?


No cablecard or TA. Didn't get those until I actually switched tv service to Cox. I still had Dish for tv and Cox for internet only last year. This was about 6 months before Cox went all digital in Tulsa and encrypted everything.

TV worked the same way, I could plug the coax directly into the TV and scan cable and the HD locals appeared in the 1000's like they do with a Cox set top.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

osu1991 said:


> No cablecard or TA. Didn't get those until I actually switched tv service to Cox. I still had Dish for tv and Cox for internet only last year. This was about 6 months before Cox went all digital in Tulsa and encrypted everything.
> 
> TV worked the same way, I could plug the coax directly into the TV and scan cable and the HD locals appeared in the 1000's like they do with a Cox set top.


But that implies that the TV has PSIP data to work with. The OP wants to use a TiVo. No PSIP support. I have no clue how that will work for channels that high. Judging from the lineup, nothing is higher than 300 so it might be good.


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## hager4283 (Oct 18, 2008)

I just bought an old Roamio on ebay so I guess I'll know in the next week if this will work for me! I appreciate everyone's input.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Hmm... this sort of implies you want to use it without Tivo service as well. It may tune channels, but that's all it will be able to do - no guide, no DVR, no pausing live TV, etc.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

hager4283 said:


> I just bought an old Roamio on ebay so I guess I'll know in the next week if this will work for me! I appreciate everyone's input.


After you get it, stop back and we can help you get it configured.

It would have been better to buy a Premiere even though it's much slower.


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## hager4283 (Oct 18, 2008)

My intent is to pay for tivo service


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

hager4283 said:


> My intent is to pay for tivo service


Just in case you aren't aware, a new Roamio OTA with lifetime is around $370 at the moment. That's less than a 2 year payback. Beats paying $15/month forever.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> But that implies that the TV has PSIP data to work with. The OP wants to use a TiVo. No PSIP support. I have no clue how that will work for channels that high. Judging from the lineup, nothing is higher than 300 so it might be good.


What does the OTA PSIP have to do with cable? Once I scanned for cable, the tv just displayed the locals as 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1111 which is where all the Tulsa locals are on Cox. The TV didn't have guide info for any of the cable channels.

I just meant that Cox was doing the mapping needed for the Clear QAM channels, no cable card or tuning adapter were needed unless you actually subscribed to a pay tier with encypted channels.

If the OP's tv is displaying the digital cable channels on the same number as a cable box, then I will bet the Tivo will work fine once guided setup is complete. If the TV was displaying 723.43 or something then yes a card or tuning adapter would be needed. I went thru this with my old Sony DHG dvr and my old plasma years ago, when Cox first started adding digital channels. They would both display the digital cable channels as 7xx.xxx something and occasionally once a year or so, I would have to rescan the cable band, whenever Cox made changes and the channels moved.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

osu1991 said:


> What does the OTA PSIP have to do with cable? Once I scanned for cable, the tv just displayed the locals as 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1111 which is where all the Tulsa locals are on Cox. The TV didn't have guide info for any of the cable channels.
> 
> I just meant that Cox was doing the mapping needed for the Clear QAM channels, no cable card or tuning adapter were needed unless you actually subscribed to a pay tier with encypted channels.
> 
> If the OP's tv is displaying the digital cable channels on the same number as a cable box, then I will bet the Tivo will work fine once guided setup is complete. If the TV was displaying 723.43 or something then yes a card or tuning adapter would be needed. I went thru this with my old Sony DHG dvr and my old plasma years ago, when Cox first started adding digital channels. They would both display the digital cable channels as 7xx.xxx something and occasionally once a year or so, I would have to rescan the cable band, whenever Cox made changes and the channels moved.


I was trying to stay on topic. No OTA. But PSIP must be used to get channels over 135. A TiVo doesn't care about PSIP. This puts a damper on using a TiVo without a cable card.

I had four Sony DHG units (no cable cards) on a clear QAM cable system that stripped the PSIP. I still get two clear QAM channels that my Premiere without a cable card and TV can receive.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> I was trying to stay on topic. No OTA. But PSIP must be used to get channels over 135. A TiVo doesn't care about PSIP. This puts a damper on using a TiVo without a cable card.
> 
> I had four Sony DHG units (no cable cards) on a clear QAM cable system that stripped the PSIP. I still get two clear QAM channels that my Premiere without a cable card and TV can receive.


What if there was Clear QAM on channel 158? It would make no sense, and in practice the few operators running 1ghz systems (mostly Cox) probably don't have Clear QAM or TV at all above 860mhz, since a lot of TVs can only tune to 135, but could TiVo tune that?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Bigg said:


> What if there was Clear QAM on channel 158? It would make no sense, and in practice the few operators running 1ghz systems (mostly Cox) probably don't have Clear QAM or TV at all above 860mhz, since a lot of TVs can only tune to 135, but could TiVo tune that?


I can tune 135 on my Premiere but it's an analog test pattern, same for my TV. My system is only 860MHz anyhow, with internet at the top. We still have many blank channels since SD is packed about 10 to 6MHz. My total with a scan is about 460.

I'm going to wait for the OP to get the Roamio and ask for help.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> I can tune 135 on my Premiere but it's an analog test pattern, same for my TV. My system is only 860MHz anyhow, with internet at the top. We still have many blank channels since SD is packed about 10 to 6MHz. My total with a scan is about 460.
> 
> I'm going to wait for the OP to get the Roamio and ask for help.


But in theory, what about on a 1ghz system if somehow they did stick a clear QAM channel up there somewhere?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Bigg said:


> But in theory, what about on a 1ghz system if somehow they did stick a clear QAM channel up there somewhere?


Someone who knows more about cable cards would have to answer that.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> Someone who knows more about cable cards would have to answer that.


My point is that I'm assuming it would be the same up to channel 158 as it is from 2-135.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Bigg said:


> My point is that I'm assuming it would be the same up to channel 158 as it is from 2-135.


I can't explain it, but all my Sony televisions have specs that say they support digital channels 2-135.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> I can't explain it, but all my Sony televisions have specs that say they support digital channels 2-135.


Right. They have 860mhz tuners. Premieres and Roamios have 1ghz tuners. They have been used at 1ghz before with CableCards. My hypothetical question, which has probably never happened in real life, is what if a clear QAM channel were up in the 860-1002mhz range? The reality is that putting clear QAM up there makes absolutely no sense, and I believe even Cox mostly for fully backed off of using those frequencies for encrypted TV channels, instead using them for internet capacity.


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

The cablelabs cablecard spec requires boxes that do NOT have cablecards must read the cvct and tvct psip information on the cable input. So, if your cable company is providing that psip data with the 1-part channel numbers (which it sounds like it is), then you just need to be able to get through guided setup and select a lineup with matching channel numbers. You should be able to do that if you say "I'll get a cablecard later" (and, then ignore any warnings that you don't have a cablecard). And, pretty sure the ota hardware should be able to do that.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Roderigo said:


> The cablelabs cablecard spec requires boxes that do NOT have cablecards must read the cvct and tvct psip information on the cable input. So, if your cable company is providing that psip data with the 1-part channel numbers (which it sounds like it is), then you just need to be able to get through guided setup and select a lineup with matching channel numbers. You should be able to do that if you say "I'll get a cablecard later" (and, then ignore any warnings that you don't have a cablecard). And, pretty sure the ota hardware should be able to do that.


That sounds like what I said earlier and what commercial installs are doing in places like hotels and condos, right?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

TiVo will WORK without a CableCard, but it can't line the guide data up.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> TiVo will WORK without a CableCard, but it can't line the guide data up.


Yes it will, if the virtual channel data matches the lineup submitted to gracenote, Rovi (or should I say TiVo now?  )etc.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

HarperVision said:


> Yes it will, if the virtual channel data matches the lineup submitted to gracenote, Rovi (or should I say TiVo now?  )etc.


Or if the physical channel numbers match the guide. This may be the way the OP finds the channels when he comes back. This is after his feed changes the physical numbers to match. This is getting crazy.


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## Kingpcgeek (Feb 6, 2012)

hager4283 said:


> Does OTA require it being plugged into an HD Antenna?


There is no such thing as a HD antenna. The HD is marketing BS. An antenna is an antenna. But yes you will need some type of antenna plugged in. what type will be determined by how far you are from the TV station transmitters.


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## hager4283 (Oct 18, 2008)

(OP) Well after some shipping delays I have finally received the Roamio that I had purchased off of ebay. I'm ecstatic to report that I went through and got it all setup today and it's working perfectly without a cable card! After it went through the guided setup, it said cable card required on each channel. I then went to settings and selected delete all scanned channels, and then ran a new channel scan. It picked up all the channels and then I selected 'add' to add all of these. It's working great! The program guide is accurate and all channels match. I did some test recording and everything has worked fine. 

I want to sincerely thank you all for your help and guidance on this topic!


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

hager4283 said:


> (OP) Well after some shipping delays I have finally received the Roamio that I had purchased off of ebay. I'm ecstatic to report that I went through and got it all setup today and it's working perfectly without a cable card! After it went through the guided setup, it said cable card required on each channel. I then went to settings and selected delete all scanned channels, and then ran a new channel scan. It picked up all the channels and then I selected 'add' to add all of these. It's working great! The program guide is accurate and all channels match. I did some test recording and everything has worked fine. I want to sincerely thank you all for your help and guidance on this topic!


Yep, awesome! :up:


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## al_wilson2 (Sep 14, 2016)

I'm not sure about WOW, but TWC (in Northeast Ohio) includes local channels with internet subscription. In a circumstance like that, TiVo can be used for clear QAM with the local channels. This just eliminates the need for an antenna, and gives better reception than an indoor antenna. I don't use it, though, since I have a rooftop antenna that get's many more local stations.


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## vtoski33 (Sep 19, 2016)

Yes, it should work with a cable card.


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## vtoski33 (Sep 19, 2016)

Is there any way to buy a cable card outright instead of renting it? From Verizon for example.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

al_wilson2 said:


> I'm not sure about WOW, but TWC (in Northeast Ohio) includes local channels with internet subscription. In a circumstance like that, TiVo can be used for clear QAM with the local channels. This just eliminates the need for an antenna, and gives better reception than an indoor antenna. I don't use it, though, since I have a rooftop antenna that get's many more local stations.


It won't work properly unless the Channels are mapped to their actual channel numbers and frequencies as was the case for the OP here.



vtoski33 said:


> Yes, it should work with a cable card.


Exactly.



vtoski33 said:


> Is there any way to buy a cable card outright instead of renting it? From Verizon for example.


From what I understand there's some small MSOs that allow and some require you to buy your own Cablecard, but the larger well known ones don't allow it.

You can also buy them from eBay etc but it's extremely doubtful that your MSO will provision and authorize it for you. They can work well for systems that have clear qam and you want to map it to the correct channel in the guide for TiVo service purposes. Just make sure to get the right one for your system's headend, be it Arris/Motorola or SA/Cisco.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

It's really surprising that TWC still has unencrypted channels.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> It's really surprising that TWC still has unencrypted channels.


........and analog channels here.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> It's really surprising that TWC still has unencrypted channels.





HarperVision said:


> ........and analog channels here.


Same in the Rochester NY area, I have a friend that gets what ever TWC calls lifeline now, and she still does not need a STB, her old tube TV just gets analog channels and her newer HD TV get all the analogs and even more digital channels including all the locals in HD, both via a direct COAX connection.


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## Jason001 (Jul 29, 2018)

hager4283 said:


> (OP) Well after some shipping delays I have finally received the Roamio that I had purchased off of ebay. I'm ecstatic to report that I went through and got it all setup today and it's working perfectly without a cable card! After it went through the guided setup, it said cable card required on each channel. I then went to settings and selected delete all scanned channels, and then ran a new channel scan. It picked up all the channels and then I selected 'add' to add all of these. It's working great! The program guide is accurate and all channels match. I did some test recording and everything has worked fine.
> 
> I want to sincerely thank you all for your help and guidance on this topic!


Hi hager4283,
Thanks for your post, I am on the same boat here, could you please share the model number of your Tivo Roamio? I found there are three different models. Tivo Roamio TCD846500 (_TCD846510, TCD846000_), Roamio Plus TCD848000, or the Roamio Pro TCD840300. Also, do you need to get one with lifetime Services? 
Thanks in advance for your reply,


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Jason001 said:


> Hi hager4283,
> Thanks for your post, I am on the same boat here, could you please share the model number of your Tivo Roamio? I found there are three different models. Tivo Roamio TCD846500 (_TCD846510, TCD846000_), Roamio Plus TCD848000, or the Roamio Pro TCD840300. Also, do you need to get one with lifetime Services?
> Thanks in advance for your reply,


@hager4283 has not been here since 2016. TiVo model numbers: https://support.tivo.com/articles/FAQ/TiVo-Service-Number-and-Model-Number-Table#s3
If you are going down this rabbit hole, you might start a new thread.

As noted in post 1, does your television work with the cable connected to it directly?


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## Jason001 (Jul 29, 2018)

Thanks JoeKustra, yes, I'm getting all channels (full channel number with no decimal point)from the original setup after I canceled my TV service with WOW but kept my internet. My main goal is to find a no monthly fee Tivo to replace Cisco Explorer 8642HDC that I returned. Thanks again for the link, looks like the correct choice is the Roamio TCD846500 right? Any guidance is greatly appreciated.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Jason001 said:


> Thanks JoeKustra, yes, I'm getting all channels (full channel number with no decimal point)from the original setup after I canceled my TV service with WOW but kept my internet. My main goal is to find a no monthly fee Tivo to replace Cisco Explorer 8642HDC that I returned. Thanks again for the link, looks like the correct choice is the Roamio TCD846500 right? Any guidance is greatly appreciated.


A basic Roamio would be fine (846500). You can always add a bigger drive.

Are you 100% sure those channels are digital? If not, then a Roamio will not work.

To tell, please post the call letters of the CBS network and the channel on your TV it is located. If your TV has an Info or Display button, what does it say about your CBS channel?


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## Jason001 (Jul 29, 2018)

I am pretty sure it is digital, the cable come directly from the wall to TV and here are the two photo said DTV, please see attached photos I just took. My is a LG TV, So basically any Tivo as long as not OTA only will work without a cable card correct.
Thanks again for all your guidance.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Jason001 said:


> I am pretty sure it is digital, the cable come directly from the wall to TV and here are the two photo said DTV, please see attached photos I just took. My is a LG TV, So basically any Tivo as long as not OTA only will work without a cable card correct.
> Thanks again for all your guidance.


Bottom line: TiVo has a 30-day return policy. There is no "OTA only" TiVo.

Now, you know your zipcode and provider. Go to tvguide.com and use those values to see what they will show as your lineup. TiVo and tvguide.com use the same database.

You have one more thing to live with: when doing the setup you will have to tell it "Install later" for the cable card. You may have to do a manual channel scan. That's when you will know if things are going to work. All this has been covered in this thread.


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## Jason001 (Jul 29, 2018)

Great information thanks, Just check with TVguide and all channels line up perfectly, so I guess I am good to go on that part. One more thing, to avoid monthly subscription fee from Tivo this is the most economical way TiVo Roamio OTA DVR | Antenna DVR and Streaming | 1TB Storage . Do you think this model will work it comes with lifetime subscription with the price. Its said HD Antenna (is that same as OTA antenna) is the input source. Again thanks for your help!!


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Jason001 said:


> Great information thanks, Just check with TVguide and all channels line up perfectly, so I guess I am good to go on that part. One more thing, to avoid monthly subscription fee from Tivo this is the most economical way TiVo Roamio OTA DVR | Antenna DVR and Streaming | 1TB Storage . Do you think this model will work it comes with lifetime subscription with the price. Its said HD Antenna (is that same as OTA antenna) is the input source. Again thanks for your help!!


The issue will be with the guide. Can the OTA DVR use a cable guide? As to the TV matching channels, one test may not be enough. Sometimes these things move around. I did a cable to tv test on Comcast and got a lot of channels, however the next day they all moved around and needed a rescan to tune them.


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## Jason001 (Jul 29, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> Bottom line: TiVo has a 30-day return policy. There is no "OTA only" TiVo.
> 
> Now, you know your zipcode and provider. Go to tvguide.com and use those values to see what they will show as your lineup. TiVo and tvguide.com use the same database.
> 
> You have one more thing to live with: when doing the setup you will have to tell it "Install later" for the cable card. You may have to do a manual channel scan. That's when you will know if things are going to work. All this has been covered in this thread.


Great information thanks, Just check with TVguide and all channels line up perfectly, so I guess I am good to go on that part. One more thing, to avoid monthly subscription fee from Tivo this is the most economical way TiVo Roamio OTA DVR | Antenna DVR and Streaming | 1TB Storage . Do you think this model will work it comes with lifetime subscription with the price. Its said HD Antenna (is that same as OTA antenna) is the input source. Again thanks for your help!!

Not sure if this model TiVo Roamio OTA DVR | Antenna DVR and Streaming | 1TB Storage will get the proper TV channels listing when preform scan through the cable signal, okay my next question may be just ignorance; what's the difference between the signal I am getting through WoW cable vs OTA antenna, especially since WoW does not uses decimal for it's channels (such as 200.01 or 201.04 or so). Are they totally different signals or the difference just in the strength of the signals?  Thanks


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

schatham said:


> The issue will be with the guide. Can the OTA DVR use a cable guide? As to the TV matching channels, one test may not be enough. Sometimes these things move around. I did a cable to tv test on Comcast and got a lot of channels, however the next day they all moved around and needed a rescan to tune them.





Jason001 said:


> Great information thanks, Just check with TVguide and all channels line up perfectly, so I guess I am good to go on that part. One more thing, to avoid monthly subscription fee from Tivo this is the most economical way TiVo Roamio OTA DVR | Antenna DVR and Streaming | 1TB Storage . Do you think this model will work it comes with lifetime subscription with the price. Its said HD Antenna (is that same as OTA antenna) is the input source. Again thanks for your help!!


The difference between an OTA Roamio and a basic Roamio is the cable card bracket. I'm hoping that since tvguide.com has your channel lineup a scan will not be needed. The guide should match. Someday WOW will decide to encrypt their TV feed or they will change their hardware and your clear QAM channels will not match the guide without a cable card. Until then, enjoy.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

You need to decide which interface to use. TE3, Encore, is preferred by some. TE4, Hydra, is new and preferred by others.

TE3: http://assets.tivo.com/assets/resources/HowTo/Roamio_Series_VG.pdf

TE4: https://explore.tivo.com/content/dam/tivo/explore/how-to/TiVoExperience_VG.pdf

RTFM


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Jason001 said:


> Not sure if this model TiVo Roamio OTA DVR | Antenna DVR and Streaming | 1TB Storage will get the proper TV channels listing when preform scan through the cable signal, okay my next question may be just ignorance; what's the difference between the signal I am getting through WoW cable vs OTA antenna, especially since WoW does not uses decimal for it's channels (such as 200.01 or 201.04 or so). Are they totally different signals or the difference just in the strength of the signals? Thanks


It's complicated and way off topic. Start a new thread if you are curious.

Quadrature amplitude modulation - Wikipedia

8VSB - Wikipedia

8VSB vs QAM? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews


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## Jason001 (Jul 29, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> The difference between an OTA Roamio and a basic Roamio is the cable card bracket. I'm hoping that since tvguide.com has your channel lineup a scan will not be needed. The guide should match. Someday WOW will decide to encrypt their TV feed or they will change their hardware and your clear QAM channels will not match the guide without a cable card. Until then, enjoy.


Thanks again JoeKustra for your insight and help, I'll report back with my setup and hope they don't encrypt feed anytime soon.


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## Electronicbuff (Mar 14, 2007)

Got a new Tivo Bolt VOX 1TB today and will try to set up on WOW! cable without a cablecard. 

I only get medium cable on the TVs (no pay channels) and can watch this selection on any TV without a cable box since this package is broadcast in-the-clear and WOW! only scrambles the pay channels and additional channels on their large cable and premium packages. 

I'm hoping the bolt will be able to decode like a TV. Customer service at TIVO tells me I need to have a cablecard, even if the channels are not scrambled, WOW! will gladly rent me a cablecard for an additional monthly fee. 

If anyone knows of a way around this on the Bolt I'm all ears....


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Electronicbuff said:


> If anyone knows of a way around this on the Bolt I'm all ears....


A way around what? Does your guide work to schedule and record programs?

It should work to watch like your TV unless the channels you are not receiving are analog. A Bolt does not receive analog.


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## Electronicbuff (Mar 14, 2007)

JoeKustra said:


> A way around what? Does your guide work to schedule and record programs?
> 
> It should work to watch like your TV unless the channels you are not receiving are analog. A Bolt does not receive analog.


Guide was working but "no signal found" was found and cablecard required was the message I was getting.


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## Electronicbuff (Mar 14, 2007)

I found a way to get the Tivo Bolt to record my in-the-clear cable channels from WOW! (Wide Open West) cable service.

1) Use Guided Setup
- zip code, pick cable company (mine was WOW!), and let Bolt go to TIVO for update EPG info (you will need to tell TIVO you will get a cablecard later)
3) Try to view a channel from the program guide
- the channel will fail telling you there is no signal and that a cablecard is needed (even though your regular TVs can tune in the programs that are in-the-clear with their own digital tuners -- (if you are using WOW! cable)
4) Go into MENU and then SETTINGS
5) Go to CABLE SCAN and tell TIVO Bolt to do a "CABLE SCAN" for channels
- now a ton of channels will show up (over 300 for me)
6) Go into GUIDE and verify that channels are working
7) For the pay channels (they will show on the list even though they are scrambled and don't work) you should then go back into MENU and SETTINGS and then uncheck the unsubscribed to channels ID 

This method saves me on the monthly cost WOW! (Wide Open West) wanted to charge me to rent their cablecard.

I called TIVO support and let their tech know how to do it as well. She wrote it down for herself but hopefully the information gets shared with the team.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Electronicbuff said:


> I found a way to get the Tivo Bolt to record my in-the-clear cable channels from WOW! (Wide Open West) cable service.
> 
> ...
> 
> I called TIVO support and let their tech know how to do it as well. She wrote it down for herself but *hopefully the information gets shared with the team*.


I literally laughed out loud when I read this.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Just for fun I tested this. Pulled cable card and ran a scan. It found 509 channels. They were in my shows and the guide worked. But as expected nothing came in. See pictures. Xfinity.

Now repeating guided set up for OTA, will scan channels using cable feed. As expected nothing will tune in.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

schatham said:


> Just for fun I tested this. Pulled cable card and ran a scan. It found 509 channels. They were in my shows and the guide worked. But as expected nothing came in. See pictures. Xfinity.
> 
> Now repeating guided set up for OTA, will scan channels using cable feed.


This is because Comcast encrypts all of their channels even locals.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

schatham said:


> Now repeating guided set up for OTA, will scan channels using cable feed. As expected nothing will tune in.


I have this device that will scan my cable and find OTA, QAM or VSB channels. Those encrypted won't be enabled but will be in the channel list with their physical channel numbers. It's called a TV. I also have a two-tuner Premiere, Same results.

My feed has 4 VSB (analog) channels for AGC level testing and two clear QAM channels. It's their message channels and can be recorded even though TiVo keeps telling me they are copy protected. (CCI byte is N/A)


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> This is because Comcast encrypts all of their channels even locals.


I know, I was just trying to settle this with a little proof since it's asked a lot.

My cable card went back in and is still paired.


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## dadrepus (Jan 4, 2012)

So, we got rid of Fios and connect, for TV, to 2 antennas in the garage attic. Use a combiner to merge both signal but still get some pixilation from the Washington Stations (even with a booster). We live in Columbia, Md half way between Balt,Wash. We still use Verizon for internet. Does Verizon encrypt all their channels or could I get local channels by plugging the tivo, without a cable card, back into Verizon cable and run a scan? Anybody try this yet?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

dadrepus said:


> So, we got rid of Fios and connect, for TV, to 2 antennas in the garage attic. Use a combiner to merge both signal but still get some pixilation from the Washington Stations (even with a booster). We live in Columbia, Md half way between Balt,Wash. We still use Verizon for internet. Does Verizon encrypt all their channels or could I get local channels by plugging the tivo, without a cable card, back into Verizon cable and run a scan? Anybody try this yet?


Just plug your TV into the cable and do a channel scan. It's free.


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## dadrepus (Jan 4, 2012)

JoeKustra said:


> Just plug your TV into the cable and do a channel scan. It's free.


Didn't work for me as I had already switched to over the air and returned my CC so I could not get free of the antenna settings even on a reboot after plugging in the verizon cable into the correct spot on my Premier. Kept getting zero channels after scan. Even tried plugging cable into antenna port, no difference. Tivo will not function on cable without the card in place, at least on my Premier.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

dadrepus said:


> Didn't work for me as I had already switched to over the air and returned my CC so I could not get free of the antenna settings even on a reboot after plugging in the verizon cable into the correct spot on my Premier. Kept getting zero channels after scan. Even tried plugging cable into antenna port, no difference. Tivo will not function on cable without the card in place, at least on my Premier.


You need to repeat Guided Setup and choose OTA. My cable has a splitter with a leg going to each input of my Premiere. I set it for OTA and cable. Since there is no cable card installed, I can scan both cable and OTA. I have four vsb analog channels with color bars and two QAM channels that are my feed's message channel. One is SD, one is HD. I also split the same cable to feed my TV. It receives the same channels. Also, every few month cable feeds will send HBO, Cinemax or Showtime in the clear. You might check that on 8/31 since ShowTime should be clear everywhere that weekend.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

dadrepus said:


> Didn't work for me as I had already switched to over the air and returned my CC so I could not get free of the antenna settings even on a reboot after plugging in the verizon cable into the correct spot on my Premier. Kept getting zero channels after scan. Even tried plugging cable into antenna port, no difference. Tivo will not function on cable without the card in place, at least on my Premier.


In addition to doing guided setup for OTA, I'm not seeing where you actually plugged your antenna feed into the Tivo.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

JoeKustra said:


> You need to repeat Guided Setup and choose OTA. My cable has a splitter with a leg going to each input of my Premiere. I set it for OTA and cable. Since there is no cable card installed, I can scan both cable and OTA. I have four vsb analog channels with color bars and two QAM channels that are my feed's message channel. One is SD, one is HD. I also split the same cable to feed my TV. It receives the same channels. Also, every few month cable feeds will send HBO, Cinemax or Showtime in the clear. You might check that on 8/31 since ShowTime should be clear everywhere that weekend.


Puzzling. Cable and OTA can't be mixed on the same coax, so having coax go through a splitter to both ports on a Premiere, then scanning cable and OTA, can't possibly actually get both cable and OTA channels. The scan will only find the channels associated with the source that feeds the coax.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

snerd said:


> Puzzling. Cable and OTA can't be mixed on the same coax, so having coax go through a splitter to both ports on a Premiere, then scanning cable and OTA, can't possibly actually get both cable and OTA channels. The scan will only find the channels associated with the source that feeds the coax.


A two-tuner Premiere was the last TiVo designed to work with OTA and cable at the same time. OTA, before 2009, was vsb (analog). Cable could also be vsb. In fact, my guide shows two channel 2. Only one works since it's my vsb color bars. I have to perform a cable channel scan to get my clear QAM channel. My guide has both OTA and cable channels, plus the encrypted QAM channels that I can't view since the Premiere doesn't have a cable card. BTW, I don't have any 8VSB channels. The vsb (OTA) and QAM channels are on different frequencies.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

JoeKustra said:


> A two-tuner Premiere was the last TiVo designed to work with OTA and cable at the same time. OTA, before 2009, was vsb (analog). Cable could also be vsb. In fact, my guide shows two channel 2. Only one works since it's my vsb color bars. I have to perform a cable channel scan to get my clear QAM channel. My guide has both OTA and cable channels, plus the encrypted QAM channels that I can't view since the Premiere doesn't have a cable card. BTW, I don't have any 8VSB channels. The vsb (OTA) and QAM channels are on different frequencies.


I know all that. I have a Premiere myself, and I've used it for simultaneous catv + OTA.

Where is the antenna in your scenario? The purpose of a channel scan is to find which signals are actually present, with no regard to the what the TiVo thinks is present.

If you only source is cable, then using a splitter to send catv signals to the OTA port is pointless. You'd be better off to just feed the coax to the catv port and attach any old antenna to the OTA port, at least then you'd have some chance of receiving some OTA channels.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

snerd said:


> I know all that. I have a Premiere myself, and I've used it for simultaneous catv + OTA.
> Where is the antenna in your scenario? The purpose of a channel scan is to find which signals are actually present, with no regard to the what the TiVo thinks is present.
> If you only source is cable, then using a splitter to send catv signals to the OTA port is pointless. You'd be better off to just feed the coax to the catv port and attach any old antenna to the OTA port, at least then you'd have some chance of receiving some OTA channels.


I was bored. I also get vsb channel 135. As for OTA:
TV Fool
Unlikely I would get many channels.


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