# D* Offered upgrade from HR10 to HR20 and...



## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

Called D* today and talked to retention about upgrading from my HR10-250 to the HR20. Was looking fo a good deal. They offered me the $19.95 deal. Then they offered me the option of owning, yes owning the HR20 for $749. It would not be a lease!!
Has anyone had this happen to them? I thought that D* was done selling DVR's outright.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

If for some crazy reason you want to send $750 down the drain, sure they'll let you own it.  And then if it breaks you'll pay again to replace it.

Lease it for $19.95 and if it breaks they will replace it.

I know which way I would go.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

You can lease, or pay the (high) price and own ...it's been an option since they started this leasing bs as far as I know.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

bonscott87,
I don't want to own it, but never herd of them offering an outright sale before. I did buy my HR10's for $1k and a lot less than that for the other 2 I have.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Ahhh, I see. Yep, you can buy pretty much any of their receivers. The H20 for example I think can be had for $299 or $399. Or at most $99 to lease. But the only way really is directly from them and you have to specifically ask for it and hope the CSR knows what they are doing and then hope it gets added to your account as owned which could be another hour or two on the phone. It's ugly but doable.

They probably offer it that way just to appease the few who can't stand a lease no matter if it's the better deal. Either that or it's something they have to offer it to avoid some legal wrangling, not that they actually want to actually make any of those sales (thus the crazy price).


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> If for some crazy reason you want to send $750 down the drain, sure they'll let you own it.  And then if it breaks you'll pay again to replace it.
> 
> Lease it for $19.95 and if it breaks they will replace it.
> 
> I know which way I would go.


I've been asking people on these forums for months now to show me something in writing that says DIRECTV will replace the HR20 for free if it breaks. It's a leased unit for $19.95 instead of buying it for $750, but no one at DIRECTV told me they'd replace it for free if it breaks. DIRECTV said if it breaks it would be my responsibility to get myself a new one unless I had the DIRECTV protection plan. I'm sure I might be able to get it replaced for free or $19.95 or something like that if it dies after the warranty period but they aren't under contract to do so. DIRECTV isn't like the local cable company that just brings over another box if the one you have fails.


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## thedeak08 (Jul 21, 2006)

I don't see why everyone gets so upset over the whole leasing deal. Why do you want to keep the unit if you don't have service to go with it? It's basically a paper weight without service, so I'm glad to give the unit back to them if I don't have their service.


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

thedeak08 said:


> I don't see why everyone gets so upset over the whole leasing deal. Why do you want to keep the unit if you don't have service to go with it? It's basically a paper weight without service, so I'm glad to give the unit back to them if I don't have their service.


I used to think it was great to BUY the DIRECTV box so I could sell it if I wanted some other type of box later. I actually sold a HDTV DIRECTV I had a few years ago on EBAY. But now I could care less about buying one to own. The lease thing is no biggie. I have an HDTV DIRECTV DVR I bought as a leased unit for $300 instead of the alternative at the time - TiVo Series3 HD DVR for $1000  and pay TiVo a monthly fee($12.95/month or $19.95/month or whatever pre-paid a year in advance) just to use it.  and having to switch over to COMCAST.


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## cancan (Nov 29, 2003)

So.... When is D actually rolling out the 100 channels they promised to have by the end of 2007?

I keep reading in their web page: "4 HD Discovery Channels, 5 HD Starz HD Channels, The History Channel, A&E, CNBC and lots more, as we roll out 100 more HD channels by year's end." They have been telling us that all year long but I not see any new HD channel!


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

cancan said:


> So.... When is D actually rolling out the 100 channels they promised to have by the end of 2007?
> 
> I keep reading in their web page: "4 HD Discovery Channels, 5 HD Starz HD Channels, The History Channel, A&E, CNBC and lots more, as we roll out 100 more HD channels by year's end." They have been telling us that all year long but I not see any new HD channel!


At least wait until the end of the year before bashing them. The first satelite is scheduled to go up in July then it will take a few weeks to set up. I would guess we would see some new channels in September. I doubt we will see 100.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

cancan said:


> So.... When is D actually rolling out the 100 channels they promised to have by the end of 2007?
> 
> I keep reading in their web page: "4 HD Discovery Channels, 5 HD Starz HD Channels, The History Channel, A&E, CNBC and lots more, as we roll out 100 more HD channels by year's end." They have been telling us that all year long but I not see any new HD channel!


Ummm, they have to launch a satellite first. Goes up July 6th. 

Of course I assume you know that you'll need a 5LNB dish and either an H20 or HR20 receiver to get them.

FYI that they just announced 11 HBO and Cinemax channels in HD yesterday. The count keeps going up.


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## RangersRBack (Jan 9, 2006)

cancan said:


> So.... When is D actually rolling out the 100 channels they promised to have by the end of 2007?
> 
> I keep reading in their web page: "4 HD Discovery Channels, 5 HD Starz HD Channels, The History Channel, A&E, CNBC and lots more, as we roll out 100 more HD channels by year's end." They have been telling us that all year long but I not see any new HD channel!


This gets my vote for funniest post in a long time. So now we're complaining because channels that were promised by the end of the year aren't here in June.

You know, now that I think about it, maybe the poster has a point. I ordered Sunday Ticket for 2007, and I haven't seen even one game yet! What a ripoff! They keep promising I'll see NFL games, but so far...nothing.

Oh, and I also have a birthday coming up in November and not ONE PERSON has said Happy Birthday to me yet! Some nerve.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

Come to think of it, I not see any new HD channel either.


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## sgndave (Jan 16, 2002)

RangersRBack said:


> Oh, and I also have a birthday coming up in November and not ONE PERSON has said Happy Birthday to me yet! Some nerve.


Now I feel better. I thought I was the only one who got treated like that.


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## Knives of Ice (Nov 8, 2006)

is it $19.95 a month to lease ? man, changing over is going to be a pain


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

of course Direct has been promising all kinds of stuff for years, so why should this be any different?


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

For $750 you can almost buy two Series3 TiVos.

Why would anyone buy a box for D* when the monthly rate is identical to leasing? How is that a bonus? "Hey, you can pay 7500% of the price and get nothing extra!" What a bargain!


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

Arcady said:


> Why would anyone buy a box for D* when the monthly rate is identical to leasing? How is that a bonus?


If the box ever gets hacked then it would be a bonus.


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## BillsIn05 (Aug 14, 2006)

No its $4.99 a month per leased box to lease.


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## Talon (Dec 5, 2001)

BillsIn05 said:


> No its $4.99 a month per leased box to lease.


Correct. The $19.99 is a one time fee to get the HR20 when you upgrade to HD. I just had it done. If you pay more you are getting ripped off.


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## Cody21 (Jan 11, 2004)

BillsIn05 said:


> No its $4.99 a month per leased box to lease.


I believe the $4.99 per month is the price of Addtional receivers in your house. At least that's what I pay for since I have 2 of them ... This is NOT a lease price and applies to the HR10-250 or any other non-HD D* receiver.


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## dimented (May 21, 2003)

Talon said:


> Correct. The $19.99 is a one time fee to get the HR20 when you upgrade to HD. I just had it done. If you pay more you are getting ripped off.


I called yeserday to try and upgrade my 2 HR10-250's to HR20's. All they wold give me is $100 a piece. So it would be $200 to upgrade. No thanks.


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## Talon (Dec 5, 2001)

dimented said:


> I called yeserday to try and upgrade my 2 HR10-250's to HR20's. All they wold give me is $100 a piece. So it would be $200 to upgrade. No thanks.


I don't know about two receivers, that may be why they said $200, but I wanted to upgrade with one and was told $200. I then said I have been a customer for over 10 years and I know there were people getting the $19.99 deal and I wanted that. They said okay after that.

I guess I have good luck with Directv. I just called them a few minutes ago and told them I was a long time customer who just got HD and was interested in trying out the superfan nfl package (I already have sunday ticket). They added superfan for free. I also got them to come and fix an outlet in my living room that is not getting a signal anymore for free as well.

I would keep trying if I were you. Good luck.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

dimented said:


> I called yeserday to try and upgrade my 2 HR10-250's to HR20's. All they wold give me is $100 a piece. So it would be $200 to upgrade. No thanks.


Basically, they were giving you one for free and the other for the standard upgrade price of 199.


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## cancan (Nov 29, 2003)

RangersRBack said:


> This gets my vote for funniest post in a long time. So now we're complaining because channels that were promised by the end of the year aren't here in June.
> 
> You know, now that I think about it, maybe the poster has a point. I ordered Sunday Ticket for 2007, and I haven't seen even one game yet! What a ripoff! They keep promising I'll see NFL games, but so far...nothing.
> 
> Oh, and I also have a birthday coming up in November and not ONE PERSON has said Happy Birthday to me yet! Some nerve.


Basically the post was intended to make a point. Bobcat ask if the HR20 was $749 worth to avoid the 2 year deal.

I wouldn't pay $749 even if D* had already the 100 channels! Why I would need a the HR20 right now when my Tivo HR10 can received the same channels. The 100 new HD channels don't exist Yet!


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Of course I assume you know that you'll need a 5LNB dish and either an H20 or HR20 receiver to get them.


I have a question about that. Why does the new 5 lnb dish I bought only come witrh 3 lnb's installed?


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> I have a question about that. Why does the new 5 lnb dish I bought only come witrh 3 lnb's installed?


Because there are 3 LNBs in 1.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

bigpuma said:


> Because there are 3 LNBs in 1.


Oh. So my old 3 lnb dish didn't have 3 in 1. Are the two empty lnb spots for lnb's 6 & 7 then? Are they for sats that haven't been dreamed up yet?


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## newby1 (Feb 10, 2003)

I upgraded two HR10-250 about a week ago. I don't remember exactly what the deal was but to sum up everything, I got 2 HR20 with 2 new dishes and a 5x8 multiswitch for $117 out of pocket (billed). Then got a programming credit for $12 a month for a year for a net of $3 in my favor. Now me being me left my HR10-250's hooked up so my bill has gone up $10 a month. I can't seem to let it go and start over with new Hard drives. Both of HR10's hold about 100 hrs of HD content and some ungodly amount of SD programming.


PS RangersRBack HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!


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## jschwar (Mar 26, 2006)

But the HR20's aren't tivo, right? I think I've seen the menu and I couldn't figure it out.


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## Ivan1670 (Mar 3, 2004)

I was able to get the upgrade for the $19.95 fee, I also got three months of Showtime free. I wasn't going to upgrade this soon, but the CSR told me that I would need the new receiver for the SUPER FAN package of Sunday Ticket.


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## HomeThtrLA (Aug 16, 2002)

jschwar said:


> But the HR20's aren't tivo, right? I think I've seen the menu and I couldn't figure it out.


right, the DirecTV models ARE NOT TiVo. If you want my and others' comments on the DirecTV DVRs, go to www.remotecentral.com and do a Forum Search for the Phrase "piece of crap." And I was restraining myself.

I love the TiVo interface, and DirecTV screwed all their customers by refusing to keep on paying TiVo for a wonderful GUI, instead semi-developing a retarded and confusing operating system and beta testing it on DirecTV customers. I know. I have one and have installed several others.

It's so bad that I don't even know why these models are being discussed in TiVo forums! I came here tonight looking for info on a TiVo that I could use with a DirecTV plain old receiver, you know, like we did six or seven years ago, because the DirecTV menu system and general operation just sucks. And it doesn't get any better with the newer models.


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## iceturkee (May 26, 2005)

Stanley Rohner said:


> I've been asking people on these forums for months now to show me something in writing that says DIRECTV will replace the HR20 for free if it breaks. It's a leased unit for $19.95 instead of buying it for $750, but no one at DIRECTV told me they'd replace it for free if it breaks. DIRECTV said if it breaks it would be my responsibility to get myself a new one unless I had the DIRECTV protection plan. I'm sure I might be able to get it replaced for free or $19.95 or something like that if it dies after the warranty period but they aren't under contract to do so. DIRECTV isn't like the local cable company that just brings over another box if the one you have fails.


actually, i got a replacement this week when the hr20-100i had had less than a week, crapped out. the tech went to his truck and brought in another unit!

and yes, they have mentioned to me more than once that i can own the unit for $749!


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

HomeThtrLA said:


> right, the DirecTV models ARE NOT TiVo. If you want my and others' comments on the DirecTV DVRs, go to www.remotecentral.com and do a Forum Search for the Phrase "piece of crap." And I was restraining myself.
> 
> I love the TiVo interface, and DirecTV screwed all their customers by refusing to keep on paying TiVo for a wonderful GUI, instead semi-developing a retarded and confusing operating system and beta testing it on DirecTV customers. I know. I have one and have installed several others.
> 
> It's so bad that I don't even know why these models are being discussed in TiVo forums! I came here tonight looking for info on a TiVo that I could use with a DirecTV plain old receiver, you know, like we did six or seven years ago, because the DirecTV menu system and general operation just sucks. And it doesn't get any better with the newer models.


Well I had a MR10-250 for 1 year coming from the Hughes DTV Tivo unit.

The HR10-250 was almost flawless until the 6.3d update.It became to unstable so I upgraded.

While the GUI on the D* unit is different form TiVo it's fine and works perfect so far. The only things I miss are this and these should be updated soon.


DLB
Tivo's SPM
Wishlist

Otherwise I prefer the HR20.

Overall better picture
Faster
interactive
It's MPEG-4 capable
Better for DD
Ethernet capable
streams Music and pictures without hacking
VOD ready.

Once the news SATs go up and more HD channels are added, you have no choice if you want them.

Now, I would love to have seen the Tivo GUI on the HR20, but when certain bugs are fixed It will be as good or better IMO.

Then again I am not a HUGE TiVo geek. I just want a VERY GOOD DVR. I have no need for the Thumbs Up/Down feature.
TiVo is and was the best DVR solution. But the HR20 is right on the verge of being much better and is on par right now.

It's just a different look and feel. 
If D* ever went back to TiVo based GUI on THEIR units I would probably switch built I love the HR20's capabilities.

The HR20 has some bugs. but is moving along very fast. For me I hate COMCRAP around here and the Series 3 is too much money. My friends Dad wanted nothing but Tivo, so be bought a series 3 and use sit with his D* service with a IR repeater as a dumb VCR. Not worth the hassle IMO.

I paid $49 for my HR10-250 and got the HR20-700 and new dish for free. Now I own the HR10-250 and can use it as a back-up or upstairs.

It will make a great SD/MPEG-2/OTA DVR if the 6.3d bugs are fixed.


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## newby1 (Feb 10, 2003)

jschwar said:


> But the HR20's aren't tivo, right? I think I've seen the menu and I couldn't figure it out.


Not to be mean, but if you couldn't figure them out, maybe you shouldn't be watching so much TV.


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## lecuyerb (Feb 29, 2004)

I bought a lease on an HR20 when it was $99 for the lease.

I have a hr10 and needed another unit so...

I can tell you why I wish I would have bought it for $750 looking back.

Now I can not get rid of it (sell) like I could if I owned it. I could give it back to d* but would have no chance at getting any $ back.

Nobody really uses the tv with the 20 on it even though it is in a better location with a better tv.

I am seriously considering another used hr10-250 at his point.....

It would all be clear if d* got tivo back......


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## wbrumfiel (Jul 21, 2004)

I got my HR20 for free when it came out. I must have just caught the right CSR because I got a note on my account that I would get the box + 5LNB dish free since I was a long time (2 years) NFL ticket subscriber. I didnt even have to pay for installation.


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

All this stuff about HR20s is kind of straying from TIVO...sounds like it should be going on over at DBSTalk


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## Rottluver (Dec 6, 2004)

wbrumfiel said:


> I got my HR20 for free when it came out. I must have just caught the right CSR because I got a note on my account that I would get the box + 5LNB dish free since I was a long time (2 years) NFL ticket subscriber. I didnt even have to pay for installation.


Dang, I shoulda called, I am going on my 8th season straight with NFL Sunday Ticket.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

iceturkee said:


> actually, i got a replacement this week when the hr20-100i had had less than a week, crapped out. the tech went to his truck and brought in another unit!
> 
> and yes, they have mentioned to me more than once that i can own the unit for $749!


Once you get past 30 days (warranty poeriod), yer on your own with your "leased' unit, and must pay for repairs....


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> Once you get past 30 days (warranty poeriod), yer on your own with your "leased' unit, and must pay for repairs....


With a leased unit after 30 days they will replace it for the cost of shipping...19.95 (which you can easily get out of). What you do have to pay for is if you need a tech visit. If you don't need a tech to replace the reciever they will just FedEx it and you'll have it in 2 days, no cost other then perhaps shipping.

Leasing means that if it dies, DirecTV will replace it since they own it.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

Things that I hate about the HR20

1. No duel buffer and no easy way to switch between tuner 1 and 2

2. No option to switch the guide to a vertical format.

3. Poor fast forward. very jerky compared to TiVo. No 6 second jump back

4. Can't jump ahead to the chapter stops, or tick marks on the time line.

5. Poor response on the remote control, doesn't always do the function that you press until the second or 3rd time you press it.

6. No thumbs up / down.

7. No way to turn off the PIP when in the guide.

8. B Band/FTM filters hanging outside like an after thought. Should have been built in on the new model.

9. Only lists 6 recorded programs on the recorded program list. would like the option to have a full screen list. don't need the PIP

Its Too bad that D* didn't take TiVo to the logical next step and had an mpeg4 box built. They would have been able to sell 4 to me to replace my HR10's. With the HR20, will just have 1 in the rack to receive the Mpeg4 HD whenever those channels show up.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> With a leased unit after 30 days they will replace it for the cost of shipping...19.95 (which you can easily get out of). What you do have to pay for is if you need a tech visit. If you don't need a tech to replace the reciever they will just FedEx it and you'll have it in 2 days, no cost other then perhaps shipping.
> 
> Leasing means that if it dies, DirecTV will replace it since they own it.


I wasn't aware of this (in fact, I had read storys to the contrary which was very perplexing) ...are you 100% certain?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> I wasn't aware of this (in fact, I had read storys to the contrary which was very perplexing) ...are you 100% certain?


For those that hate the HR20 should take a look a few months ago when there were many people getting replacement HR20's for bad units. There are less posts now about replacements but I still see them. I was told 3 times when I activated mine that it was a lease and would be replaced should it die.

But as we all know, nothing is 100% with CSRs.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

I won't address all of your issues but I do want to point out a couple things for those that don't know.



BOBCAT said:


> 2. No option to switch the guide to a vertical format.


This is no substitute but you can pull up the guide, left arrow to the channel number and hit the INFO button. The entire 2 week guide for the channel is loaded up. With one button record I can set a dozen movies on HBO to record in just a minute or so this way for example.



> No 6 second jump back


Replay button does exactly this. If you're talking about autocorrection this was actually just added to the HR20 in the last CE release. So the one thing that was a hard fast Tivo patent DirecTV has copied.



> 4. Can't jump ahead to the chapter stops, or tick marks on the time line.


Hold down FFW for 3 seconds and it will jump to tick



> 5. Poor response on the remote control, doesn't always do the function that you press until the second or 3rd time you press it.


Try IR mode if you're using RF. This isn't common at all. May need a new remote.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

bonscott87,

1. Yes there is no substitute for TiVo's veritcal guide.

2. Still no 1 buton 6 second jumpback, Do a FF, and then have it jump back when you stop.

3. Poor implementation of the jump to the chapter stops. Have to hold down the button and wait for it to finally jump.

4. Still has poor response to the remote. Bought 2 new remotes on ebay. they do the same thing. It's the HR20's poling of the remote input. 
When I press the button on the remote, the LED on the HR20 doesn't blink to acknowledge the input. If I hold down the button, it finally blinks and does the function. 

Another Item to my list is:

10. No instant positive feedback gratification, "audio ding, click" when your clicking on functions that it executes. 
Only get a bong when it doesn't do the function you press. This is called negative feedback. It invokes a negative feeling in the user of the HR20. The user needs positive feedback from the HR20 as well to balance it out.

(#10 is for Earl)


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

BOBCAT said:


> bonscott87,
> 
> 1. Yes there is no substitute for TiVo's veritcal guide.
> 
> ...


You should bring this up over on DBSTalk before the police come down on your thread again.

1. Yep. And I'd say there is a reason why it's called the "Tivo" guide. I doubt you'll see it on any non-Tivo receiver. Although if DirecTV can add in a Tivo patent (see below) then it's always possible.

2. There is a one button 6 second jumpback. It's the replay/jump back button.  FYI that FFW autocorrection (ala Tivo's autocorrection that is a patent) was just added in the past couple weeks in beta testing. So it should make it national in a month or so.

3. I can't disagree. Press and hold for 3 seconds is dumb. Lucky for me they are functions I rarely use so it doesn't bother me much. There are ways to program them to a separate button on a universal remote however if you happen to have an MX or Harmony.

4. I'd think you have some sort of interferrence going on (or a bad receiver) being you have tried multiple remotes. Again, bring this issue up in a thread on DBSTalk and there will be many people willing to help you.

10. All a matter of taste really. I always hated the sounds and disabled them personally. Again, just my preference.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

"You should bring this up over on DBSTalk before the police come down on your thread again."


Agan? Did they?

Talking about what I don't like about the HS20 compaired to my HS10's


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## synchros (Apr 9, 2002)

Not TiVo, indeed.

Also, if you're looking to get a HR20, make sure it is the HR20-100 model. Look for the dual-ethernet interfaces. It is a newer/better model than the HR20-700 (made by Pace).


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

synchros,

Joined in 2002 and this is your 1st post?
What got your blood hot?

Yes, my HR20's are -100's

Main line units are the HR10's. 
The HR20's are for the upcoming Mpeg4 HD channels only


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

BOBCAT said:


> "You should bring this up over on DBSTalk before the police come down on your thread again."
> 
> Agan? Did they?
> 
> Talking about what I don't like about the HS20 compaired to my HS10's


Yea, they don't want HR20 talk here. They want to shoo everyone away to other forums. So be it.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Actually, the traffic goes up a lot here, because all of the defenders of the other box come scurrying over here to remind us what a marvel of technology they're enjoying.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> Actually, the traffic goes up a lot here, because all of the defenders of the other box come scurrying over here to remind us what a marvel of technology they're enjoying.


Only if asked. Still don't get it do you?


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## Fullcourt81 (Dec 19, 2004)

I like to see the HR-20 discussed here because I have a HR10, and don't know when I will upgrade. 
Also like to see the HR20 discussed from a HR10 owners perspective, and what deal they got, and why they finally went away from the D*tivo unit.


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## tfederov (Jul 6, 2003)

Fullcourt81 said:


> I like to see the HR-20 discussed here because I have a HR10, and don't know when I will upgrade.
> Also like to see the HR20 discussed from a HR10 owners perspective, and what deal they got, and why they finally went away from the D*tivo unit.


Here's a good site for that over at dbstalk


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Fullcourt81 said:


> I like to see the HR-20 discussed here because I have a HR10, and don't know when I will upgrade.
> Also like to see the HR20 discussed from a HR10 owners perspective, and what deal they got, and why they finally went away from the D*tivo unit.


Yep, DBSTalk is the place to go for this. It's owned by the same people that own this Tivo forum and AVS.

There is a dozens pages long thread on just what deals people got and plenty of analysis from a Tivo owners perspective.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Yeah, that site is full of information. If you have an OTA hookup with your HR10's, then be sure to check out that discussion too as it's a crapshoot if yours will work.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Fullcourt81 said:


> I like to see the HR-20 discussed here because I have a HR10, and don't know when I will upgrade.
> Also like to see the HR20 discussed from a HR10 owners perspective, and what deal they got, and why they finally went away from the D*tivo unit.


That may be what _you_ want, and I certainly can't fault you for that, but that's asking a lot on a TiVo-centric board. Feathers will be ruffled. But, I know that I see a lot of familiar user names and avatars over @ DBSTalk, ones that I recognize from here. I've seen folks that voiced how they were pleasantly surprise with how they've take to another platform.

It comes down to this, IMO. If you feel that any TiVo feature that doesn't have a parallel in the other platforms is irreplaceable, then you should probably stay put. If you have an interest in seeing how the other half lives, go for it. If more HD is your priority, then I'm afraid your decision has already been made.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> Yep, DBSTalk is the place to go for this. It's owned by the same people that own this Tivo forum and AVS.
> 
> .


I wasn't aware of any connection between AVS and DBSTalk. Can anyone confirm this? There isn't any mention I saw on a quick look at DBS.

They do use the same software so it looks the same, but so do many other sites.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Matt L said:


> I wasn't aware of any connection between AVS and DBSTalk. Can anyone confirm this? There isn't any mention I saw on a quick look at DBS.
> 
> They do use the same software so it looks the same, but so do many other sites.


David, who owns AVS and the Tivo forum here bought DBSTalk a couple years ago. Shortly after that they migrated a lot of the Dish and DirecTV forums off AVS over there. When the non Tivo DVRs started coming out Tivo didn't want discussion of them here so naturally most talk for them was moved to DBSTalk. Just read the sticky post at the top of this forum about non Tivo DVRs and you'll see what's up.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bonscott87 said:


> When the non Tivo DVRs started coming out Tivo didn't want discussion of them here so naturally most talk for them was moved to DBSTalk. Just read the sticky post at the top of this forum about non Tivo DVRs and you'll see what's up.


Has it actually been stated somewhere by the owner or moderators that TiVo had something to do with the decision? Because it doesn't say that in the sticky post.

It's simply the right thing to do and what most of the users here wanted anyway.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

nrc said:


> Has it actually been stated somewhere by the owner or moderators that TiVo had something to do with the decision? Because it doesn't say that in the sticky post.
> 
> It's simply the right thing to do and what most of the users here wanted anyway.


I remember it was a HUGE deal when this decision was made. Earl had originally posted his review of the R15 here. If I remember correctly it was basically Tivo saying they didn't want full blow discussions of a competitor on this site since they pay for it (and it's certainly their right). I could be wrong but I thought David posted to that effect. But it's been so long ago my memory may be failing me in my old age. But it would certainly make sense. I mean what's the harm in talking about other products. Man the Replay and UTV vs. Tivo wars on this forum were ones for the ages.

Now I'm not totally sure why the mods have said they will allow some discussion of non Tivo DirecTV DVRs now, could be that since Tivo really isn't a competitor anymore in the DirecTV market so honestly it really doesn't matter if such discussion takes place. But I would assume that if Tivo gets back together with DirecTV that such talk may be squashed more heavily again.

But who really knows. Bottom line is that main discussions about non Tivo DVRs have other places that are better to post. But on the other hand people shouldn't get all bent out of shape when a newbie posts a question about the future which may or may not include Tivo. Sticking one's head in the ground and ignoring the future doesn't do one much good. But that's just my perspective.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> David, who owns AVS and the Tivo forum here bought DBSTalk a couple years ago. Shortly after that they migrated a lot of the Dish and DirecTV forums off AVS over there. When the non Tivo DVRs started coming out Tivo didn't want discussion of them here so naturally most talk for them was moved to DBSTalk. Just read the sticky post at the top of this forum about non Tivo DVRs and you'll see what's up.


Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. I recall going to DBSTalk in the early days and swearing I'd never return and I haven't. I found it to be a very unfriendly site back then, almost LINUX like ( and that's far from a compliment...). I might wander back there and see how things are going now, but I'm a longtime member of DBSForums and intend to stay there.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bonscott87 said:


> If I remember correctly it was basically Tivo saying they didn't want full blow discussions of a competitor on this site since they pay for it (and it's certainly their right). I could be wrong but I thought David posted to that effect.


I don't recall any post to that effect and I can't find any on the forum.

The "harm" in talking about other products occurs when it distracts from the actual purpose of the forum.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

More regarding the DBSTalk issue here.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Thanks, I didn't think to check the archive because I was getting search hits from that timeframe, just nothing relevant. :/ So TiVo objected to the link in the navigation bar, not the discussion on the forum. Ironically, TiVo's objections where to "using this community to funnel people to a non-TiVo site".


> Closing the R15 threads was not our decision, David never even asked us our opinion. He doesn't need to.


In fact, traffic on DBS from AVS forum was directed to DBStalk even before that. It simply makes sense to direct traffic to the appropriate site to provide the critical mass needed for a thriving community.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Thanks for digging up that link. I knew I remembered Tivo laying down the hammer.


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## Grecord (Sep 28, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> Oh. So my old 3 lnb dish didn't have 3 in 1. Are the two empty lnb spots for lnb's 6 & 7 then? Are they for sats that haven't been dreamed up yet?


The new HD antenna Has all five LNBs and a 4way switch in the feedhorn assembly you can see. The other side of the Assy is for symetry(sp?). Additional satellites can be added with the two flex ports on the new wideband switches.

Greg

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

5 LNBs and multiswitches and no TiVo. Or a single cable and a Series3. Are you kidding?


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## Rottluver (Dec 6, 2004)

Arcady said:


> 5 LNBs and multiswitches and no TiVo. Or a single cable and a Series3. Are you kidding?


No NFL Sunday Ticket, No Care.


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## rborden (Dec 31, 2004)

Stanley Rohner said:


> I've been asking people on these forums for months now to show me something in writing that says DIRECTV will replace the HR20 for free if it breaks. It's a leased unit for $19.95 instead of buying it for $750, but no one at DIRECTV told me they'd replace it for free if it breaks. DIRECTV said if it breaks it would be my responsibility to get myself a new one unless I had the DIRECTV protection plan. I'm sure I might be able to get it replaced for free or $19.95 or something like that if it dies after the warranty period but they aren't under contract to do so. DIRECTV isn't like the local cable company that just brings over another box if the one you have fails.


This is all I could find from the new Lease Agreement:

DIRECTV PROVIDES YOU THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT AS IS, AND MAKES NO WARRANTY, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, REGARDING THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT PROVIDED TO YOU. ALL SUCH WARRANTIES INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ARE EXPRESSLY EXCLUDED. DIRECTV IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RELATING TO THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT PROVIDED TO YOU.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

After having my HR20-100 for a month now, I find that I only use it when I want to watch an HD channel that TiVo doesn't receive. Why you ask? The HI, (Human Interface) was not well thought out. With all of the latest electronic technology and software at hand, D* just didn't think about the user sitting in the easy chair running the box. The remote is backwards. When you hold the remote, the thumb naturally will run the volume and the channel up and down, but why didn't they put the picture control where the select is? that is where your thumb falls! The FF, FB, record, pause, jump, and skip is used much more than select and the arrow functions so they should have been grouped together with the channel/volume mute controls. Then all of the major controls would be within the thumb's reach with out having to re position your grip on the remote.

While I'm on the subject of the remote, If you are set up for wireless, don't expect the box to respond to the remote command the 1st time you press the button as the box doesn't seem to "hear" the remote very well in "RF" mode, so you have to keep pressing the button until the box responds. IR seems to work ok
.
The guide should have an option to switch to a vertical format. The horizontal guide is just to aggregating to use when you want to search way out in time. Also the 12hr jump is useless as the guide is only displaying 2hrs at a time. So with 4 buttons available why didn't they put a 2hr and 4hr jump?

No duel buffers! and no easy way to switch between tuners, a real big item for me.

When doing fast forward, it has 4 speeds, why didn't they have the FF wrap around to play on the 5th key stroke? FF 1, 2, 3, 4, play should be the sequence, not a dead end bong when you hit the button for the 5th time. Would make it easier to stop the FF right where you want it to as by the time that you remember to put your thumb over the play button to stop the FF, you over shoot the place where you want to stop.

No sound effects. some people hate them, others like them. They should have included them and had an option to enable/disable them.

Poor response when trying to jump ahead to the chapter stops, or tick marks on the time line. Have to hold the FF button down and wait for a response. Should have been a dedicated button for jump ahead.

Yes, I know that this isn't TiVo, but I think that D* could have done a little more research on what features us users would like to have, and have had some of the TiVo users on this fourm do the Beta testing before they released this box out to "All of US Beta testers" to point out the features that they should have implemented.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

BOBCAT said:


> The guide should have an option to switch to a vertical format. The horizontal guide is just to aggregating to use when you want to search way out in time.


You can present a "list-style" guide for each channel by scrolling left to the channel number in the guide and pressing INFO. It presents all upcoming titles on that channel.



> FF 1, 2, 3, 4, play should be the sequence, not a dead end *bong* when you hit the button for the 5th time.
> 
> [...]
> 
> No sound effects. some people hate them, others like them. They should have included them and had an option to enable/disable them.


As you noted above with the FFW button, there ARE sound effects. Just like TiVo, sound effects only work on non-DD channels. Sound effects can be adjusted by going to Setup > Audio > Sound Effects and choosing from Volume: Off, Low, Medium, High.



> Poor response when trying to jump ahead to the chapter stops, or tick marks on the time line. Have to hold the FF button down and wait for a response. Should have been a dedicated button for jump ahead.


I dislike all of the "press-and-hold" key combos on the HR10, but have managed to adapt. To use them, you actually hold for three seconds and release, not hold and wait for a response.



> Yes, I know that this isn't TiVo, but I think that D* could have done a little more research on what features us users would like to have, and have had some of the TiVo users on this fourm do the Beta testing before they released this box out to "All of US Beta testers" to point out the features that they should have implemented.


Users have asked for caller-ID, music playing and photo sharing on their HR10 (without hacking), and the DIRECTV HR20 has these features.

As to "all of us beta testers" ... the only beta testers that exist work for DIRECTV. There are volunteers who participate at DBSTalk.com, a sister site of TiVoCommunity Forum, who on their own actively download new software releases from DIRECTV and report their findings. This group of users is sometimes mistakenly called beta testers, but that's not the case. We (yes, I'm one of them) are actual pre-release testers, for we test the changes before they are released nationally.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

" FF 1, 2, 3, 4, play should be the sequence, not a dead end bong when you hit the button for the 5th time."

You missed the point, The 5th time you press FF, it should wrap around to play, not do nothing but bong


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

"You can present a "list-style" guide for each channel by scrolling left to the channel number in the guide and pressing INFO. It presents all upcoming titles on that channel. " 

OK, didn't know that, but wish that you could remove the PIP, and get a full screen of upcoming shows.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

"I dislike all of the "press-and-hold" key combos on the HR10, but have managed to adapt. To use them, you actually hold for three seconds and release, not hold and wait for a response." 

Works either way, but still don't like the delay. Thats why it shold have a button on the remote for doing the jump.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

"Users have asked for caller-ID, music playing and photo sharing on their HR10 (without hacking), and the DIRECTV HR20 has these features.

As to "all of us beta testers" ... the only beta testers that exist work for DIRECTV. There are volunteers who participate at DBSTalk.com, a sister site of TiVoCommunity Forum, who on their own actively download new software releases from DIRECTV and report their findings. This group of users is sometimes mistakenly called beta testers, but that's not the case. We (yes, I'm one of them) are actual pre-release testers, for we test the changes before they are released nationally. "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was talking about before they ever released the HR20, not test new software to fix a problem or add more features after the release.

They could have asked people what features would you like to see in our new box that will replace the HR10.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

BOBCAT said:


> The remote is backwards. When you hold the remote, the thumb naturally will run the volume and the channel up and down, but why didn't they put the picture control where the select is? that is where your thumb falls! The FF, FB, record, pause, jump, and skip is used much more than select and the arrow functions so they should have been grouped together with the channel/volume mute controls. Then all of the major controls would be within the thumb's reach with out having to re position your grip on the remote.


I see a lot of people complain about remotes. Not just the HR20 but other equipment too. With the wide variety of universal remotes available, I just don't understand why anyone would want to use the stock one. I still use my faithful MX-500s. I have 5 of them, one for each of the rooms. They are all programmed the same so I never have to remember what remote does what. The bottom line is IMO the remote is the absolute last thing I would care about for any piece of equipment.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

BOBCAT said:


> " FF 1, 2, 3, 4, play should be the sequence, not a dead end bong when you hit the button for the 5th time."
> 
> You missed the point, The 5th time you press FF, it should wrap around to play, not do nothing but bong


No, I got your point, but I wasn't addressing FFW and it's functionality. I was addressing the audio sound effects. In the FFW segment of your post you mention the bong sound, but later on you say there are no sound effects.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

Mark Lopez,
Well, each to his own.
I like the orignal remotes designed with the correctly labeled buttons for the features of the equipment it is designed to work with. Once you learn the button positions, you don't need to look at the remote to run it.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

BOBCAT said:


> Mark Lopez,
> Well, each to his own.
> I like the orignal remotes designed with the correctly labeled buttons for the features of the equipment it is designed to work with. Once you learn the button positions, you don't need to look at the remote to run it.


The same is true of universal remotes. I use a TC30, a Harmon Kardon branded Harmony remote, and I customize the buttons to suit my usage. Learning where I mapped the buttons on my LCD is no different than learning a new remote from the OMD, but I also have the advantage that I have already memorized the positions of all the hard-keys on the remote, so I really only have to "learn" the positions of commands I added as soft-keys on the LCD panel.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

drew2k,
Ok, fine.
To me, that is just a small irritating issue that I would hope that D* could fix whenever they do another software upgrade.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

BOBCAT said:


> drew2k,
> Ok, fine.
> To me, that is just a small irritating issue that I would hope that D* could fix whenever they do another software upgrade.


bobcat ... I really hope you visit the DIRECTV HR20 forums at DBSTalk.com ... Lots of good info there. Have you seen the Tips and Tricks post yet? It's a collection of tips, several of them undocumented, put together by the users and may help you get more out of your HR20 experience.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Mark Lopez said:


> I see a lot of people complain about remotes. Not just the HR20 but other equipment too. With the wide variety of universal remotes available, I just don't understand why anyone would want to use the stock one. I still use my faithful MX-500s. I have 5 of them, one for each of the rooms. They are all programmed the same so I never have to remember what remote does what. The bottom line is IMO the remote is the absolute last thing I would care about for any piece of equipment.


Works for me, only I have the MX-600. Once you get above three devices, and what self-respecting Home Theater enthusiast stops at 3? , you need a decent universal remote. I've never regretted making that purchase.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

I think the remote is an indication of the time and effort D* used in getting this box to market. Throw together anything and tell the users to go find a universal remote, because we don't have time to figure it out and we're too cheap to hire a designer for the user interface that knows about these things.

It reminds me of the OTA problems they have and the way they work around that too.

It just speaks about the lack of attention to details and ultimately the lack of quality.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

RS4 said:


> I think the remote is an indication of the time and effort D* used in getting this box to market. Throw together anything and tell the users to go find a universal remote, because we don't have time to figure it out and we're too cheap to hire a designer for the user interface that knows about these things.
> 
> It reminds me of the OTA problems they have and the way they work around that too.
> 
> It just speaks about the lack of attention to details and ultimately the lack of quality.


I don't remember the very first Tivo that was released 5+ years ago. Was it as perfect as you are expecting the HR20 to be on its first release?

Having a business strategy of getting version 1.0 in the hands of customers as fast as possible so they can start getting user feedback is a valid method used in the software industry today. You can spend 3 years on design and test but it will still be buggy when you first ship it to real users. And the users will still complain you designed it ass backwards. So why not just ship the 1.0 product and then start making the requested changes?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> I think the remote is an indication of the time and effort D* used in getting this box to market. Throw together anything and tell the users to go find a universal remote, because we don't have time to figure it out and we're too cheap to hire a designer for the user interface that knows about these things.


Saying the remote for the HR20 is bad is one thing (I don't really like it myself) but to say it's bad in your opinion is a reason that DirecTV rushed it to market or whatnot is just plain stupid. DirecTV has *ONE* remote for all of their receivers, DVR or not. The remote you get with the HR20 is the same remote you get with the R15 or even the D12 non DVR. So the remote, good or bad, had/has nothing to do with the HR20 being hurried to market or not.

Also one forgets how many people hate the Tivo peanut remote. When I got my first Tivo back in 2000 I got the Sony because it *didn't* have the Tivo remote. Thru all the various Tivo's and DirecTivo's I much preferred the Sony style remote over the Tivo peanut. But that was my personal preference. In 2002 I got my first universal remote and never looked back.



> It reminds me of the OTA problems they have and the way they work around that too.


What are all these OTA problems you speak of? The biggest issue is that the HR20 doesn't have an OTA scan ability. If that's what you are referring to, it's not a problem but a design descision.

If you are referring to OTA reception, there is no "problem" with the HR20 specifically. I can line up 5 different receivers that do OTA and will get 5 different results in OTA reception. Every OTA tuner is different in how it receives. Basically you just need to know what type of OTA reception you need and tweak your setup based on the tuner you end up using. OTA isn't a science with a one size fits all, it's an art in getting good reception.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

RS4 said:


> I think the remote is an indication of the time and effort D* used in getting this box to market. Throw together anything and tell the users to go find a universal remote, because we don't have time to figure it out and we're too cheap to hire a designer for the user interface that knows about these things.


I'm sorry, but I missed where DIRECTV is directing their users to go buy universal remotes?


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## mprh (Mar 30, 2003)

Of the D*tv pvr's hr20-100 and the hr 20 700 which is the newer pvr?
Thank you for the info.
Marie


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

mprh said:


> Of the D*tv pvr's hr20-100 and the hr 20 700 which is the newer pvr?
> Thank you for the info.
> Marie


http://www.dbstalk.com is where you want to go. Sorry, they don't want HR20 talk around here.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

mprh
The HR20-100 is the latest unit. 
Go to dbstalk.com for all the details


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com is where you want to go. Sorry, they don't want HR20 talk around here.


I think answering a simple question is fine. Then direct the questioner to the forum for the details as BOBCAT did.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

*"What are all these OTA problems you speak of? The biggest issue is that the HR20 doesn't have an OTA scan ability. If that's what you are referring to, it's not a problem but a design descision."*

Yeah, it was a design decision because they couldn't get the scanner to work  They were forced to come out with an alternative.

The research I've done says they are ranked at the bottom of the currently available new products on receiving OTA signals. It says they used 3rd generation technology when 5th generation was available. Why - cheaper? - who knows, but in any case it shows the effort they have put into this box.

Just like the remote mentioned above - they only have one remote - take it or leave it. Even if it doesn't function well for the dvr usage.

DVR's have been out for years and yet you guys are fine with the attitude that because this is apparently the first in-house dvr from D*, it's perfectly fine to put up with inferior quality and usability. That makes absolutely no sense at all. They're way of competing with the better liked Tivo is to shut them out and come out with their own mediocre product - Ugh!!


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> *"What are all these OTA problems you speak of? The biggest issue is that the HR20 doesn't have an OTA scan ability. If that's what you are referring to, it's not a problem but a design descision."*
> 
> Yeah, it was a design decision because they couldn't get the scanner to work  They were forced to come out with an alternative.
> 
> ...


Your OTA comments... so they didn't use the 5th gen tuners...
So... If they added 5th gen tuners, and it drove the cost up another $100 or so (you need two of them)... Then you have people complaining even more that it costs too much...

They went with a solution that works for most... and granted... they are only spending millions (if not billions), getting what you would get via OTA, to come over the SAT line... which (I will argue)... is where their target audience WANTS to get their HD-Locals via....

------------

As for the remote:

The OEM remote offerings from DirecTV, are no different then most companies.
They offer one or two main versions... but that is about it.

You have the RC23/24 the original OEM's that came with the units.
Then the RC32 which was a larger button remote (same general layout).
Then the RC32RF which added RF functionality, but also included backlight functions. The RC64/64RF are basically the same, with updated device codes

How many companies out there have multiple OEM remotes for their products?
Even TiVo has basically the same remote, just minor changes between the different ones... it is not like that have two completely different remotes.

There is a reason why the 3rd party remote buisness... is so big now adays.

--------

And the last comment.
The better liked TiVo? What else was out there for the first 6+ years of DVR life on DirecTV? UltimateTV was out there, and I would tend to say that IT was even more "liked" then TiVo..... but was too expensive, and ultimately couldn't catch on... and was dropped.

And your opinion that the DVR+ series is "inferior quality and usability"... is not universally shared.

Overall... I would say hands down the HR20 is better then the HR10-250.
Line Item by Line Item.... TiVo has advantages in certain areas, no doubt... but I guess it would depend on what you value the most out of your DVR... and everyone doesn't value the same thing...


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> *"What are all these OTA problems you speak of? The biggest issue is that the HR20 doesn't have an OTA scan ability. If that's what you are referring to, it's not a problem but a design descision."*
> 
> Yeah, it was a design decision because they couldn't get the scanner to work  They were forced to come out with an alternative.


And where do you get that?



> The research I've done says they are ranked at the bottom of the currently available new products on receiving OTA signals. It says they used 3rd generation technology when 5th generation was available. Why - cheaper? - who knows, but in any case it shows the effort they have put into this box.


Ahhh, so once again we have you spouting off about something that you *have never used* or experienced. I see. You still don't seem to accept that OTA is an art, not a science. Of course you don't accept anything that isn't your held belief.

It's getting a little tiresome...your "I heard this" or "I read that" when you have never had it yourself. Honestly, let those that have tried the HR20 and hate it post away, you have no right to do so. And you're the loudest in flaming yet you have never tried one. Get some perspective that you have no expert opinion in this debate.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Scott, you amaze me. Here you are on a Tivo forum - not you're beloved HR20 - and when someone points out what the research says about D*s ne box, your solution is to come after me because I don't own one.

I've done a lot of research about that box, including the OTA. Earl points out that D* is probably saving money because they already have everything in the satellite. Well of course, that isn't true. D* is no where close to getting all of the local HD channels, so that means a customer needs OTA if they want to watch the OTA. And while I don't remember the costs of 3rd vs 5th (I don't think it was too much different), it just tells me the kind of effort D* is putting into the project.

The research says that a lot of the TV mfgs have a superior OTA technology then D* and yet look at how many TV's will strictly be OTA - not very many.

D* is trying to bring a box into a market that is several years old, yet they have all of the problems of the early adapters. That tells me they didn't bother to hire any experienced people to put this thing together.

The signs are all over the place that this product has been hastily put together and forced on the market place by shutting down the competition. That is not the kind of product I want to be committed to for two years. And, I think that is the attitude of many other people on this Tivo forum.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

RS4 said:


> D* is trying to bring a box into a market that is several years old, yet they have all of the problems of the early adapters. That tells me they didn't bother to hire any experienced people to put this thing together.
> 
> The signs are all over the place that this product has been hastily put together and forced on the market place by shutting down the competition. That is not the kind of product I want to be committed to for two years. And, I think that is the attitude of many other people on this Tivo forum.


So do you feel the same about the TiVo engineers who released the S3 to market without MRV support, TiVo-to-Go, eSATA support, MultiStream CableCard Support, etc.? That TiVo didn't hire experienced people? Or that the product, lacking these features, was hastily put together? Or do you think TiVo made a business decision to release the Series 3 to either cut costs, reduce development costs and time frames, or bring the Series 3 to market at a specific time they wanted to? Don't you think DIRECTV would make business decisions along those same lines? Of course they would.


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## CessnaDriver (Oct 25, 2003)

Wow RS4 is still at it eh?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

CessnaDriver said:


> Wow RS4 is still at it eh?


He thinks he's getting under people's skin which it totally not happening. I laugh every time I see him post. :up:


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

*"And your opinion that the DVR+ series is "inferior quality and usability"... is not universally shared."*

Of course it's not universally share by many people, but there are significant numbers of people getting the product right now to point out there are still quality and usability issues of a brand new product.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

*"Or do you think TiVo made a business decision to release the Series 3 to either cut costs, reduce development costs and time frames, or bring the Series 3 to market at a specific time they wanted to? Don't you think DIRECTV would make business decisions along those same lines? Of course they would."*

Absolutely I agree that both products were developed for business reasons. I believe the Series 3 was released without certain features in order to be certified by CableLabs. CabelLabs would not let them include a feature set that I am sure is popular on other Tivos, but which the cable industry sees as too much competition for them so they refused to let them be included, just as D* did with the DTivos.

DirecTV was forced to come out with the HR20 - they through out Tivo, had a terrible experience with the NDS box, and decided to build their own. We don't know if they were planning on an NDS HD box. My guess is they were. So, that meant from the beginning that they probably were under a time crunch. For that reason alone, quality is going to suffer and it's evident in the final results.

Of course the hardware issues have probably settled down a lot, and many of the software issues have been fixed, but that still doesn't overcome design decisions such as recording from a search that will take a long time to fix. And of course, just like the DTivos, there is a feature list lacking in the new box that DirecTV needs to address.

I believe the evidence shows that the DirecTV plus dvr's are just another run-of-the-mill generic box. We've seen this kind of thing from DirecTV for years - like their promise of a whole feature set of items for the NDS box that never materialized.

I believe if DirecTV and Tivo had had an open relationship, we would have prospered more. It looks like to me that both companies made huge mistakes. We'll never know because we weren't there, but the fact remains that this is a Tivo forum and the majority of us want a Tivo replacement. The rest, we'll gladly send to the other forum.

If you look at other questions here, you'll find when there is a question about something dealing with mpeg 4 or D*'s dvrs, we gladly point out the other forum. What I and others don't like is the misleading statements that are made and the crusade by the zealots.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

RS4 said:


> It looks like to me that both companies made huge mistakes. We'll never know because we weren't there, but the fact remains that this is a Tivo forum and the majority of us want a Tivo replacement. The rest, we'll gladly send to the other forum.
> 
> If you look at other questions here, you'll find when there is a question about something dealing with mpeg 4 or D*'s dvrs, we gladly point out the other forum. What I and others don't like is the misleading statements that are made and the crusade by the zealots.


But to say the HR20 is a piece of crap, which is the most common refrain here at TCF when there's a question about the HR20, is entirely subjective and thus is misleading. The user you're trying to help can best form their own opinion by going to a forum that deals with the HR20 and reading a full spectrum of comments, from users with many problems, to users with some problems, to users with NO problems. Every DVR has people with problems, and TiVo and DIRECTV are no exceptions. It's extremely disingenuous to pretend otherwise.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

*"But to say the HR20 is a piece of crap..."*

What most of you fail to understand is the User Interface is a big deal to a lot of people, if it's not intuitive (which is a huge complaint), then in fact it will earn that reputation. I've seen enough complaints from Tivo users to believe DirecTV failed miserably in that category.

You guys make light of it and say anyone can learn to use it. Of course that is correct, but if many many Tivo users are saying it isn't easy to use, then they will form that opinion.

That appears to me to be the major complaint on the other forums, so I understand why people feel that way.

"It's extremely disingenuous to pretend otherwise." It's appropriate to encourage folks to go over to the other forums. It's disingenuous to come on to this forum and indicate this box is the next upgrade step for a Tivo user and there won't be any problems.

Short of DirecTV allowing a trial program, then only way anyone can make a decision is to read forums and do research on other places.

There are way too many other people who absolutely hate the box for me to be convinced that it is anything close to a Tivo. You can see that on the other forum. The general impression I get from Tivo users on the other forum is 'yeah, it has some good features and I can put up with this box, but it isn't a Tivo" That is not a glowing endorsement from people who have tried both.

It's one thing to not have problems with the box, but completely different to "would I like to have stayed with the Tivo?" And that's what I think you guys are ignoring.


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## tfederov (Jul 6, 2003)

RS4, how much time have you spent trying out an HR20?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

RS4 said:


> *"But to say the HR20 is a piece of crap..."*
> 
> What most of you fail to understand is the User Interface is a big deal to a lot of people, if it's not intuitive (which is a huge complaint), then in fact it will earn that reputation. I've seen enough complaints from Tivo users to believe DirecTV failed miserably in that category.


It's obvious you have no interest in doing anything but bash the HR20, even when its pointed out to you that the people here who have FIRSTHAND knowledge of the HR20 are only correcting misinformation. You have no desire to do anything but spout about perceived HR20 shortcomings, and you ignored my comment about letting people form their own opinions by going to a forum of people who use the HR20 daily.



> You guys ...





> ... make light of it ...


Really? Commenting that a user's prior experience directly colors their reception to an alternate UI is making light of it?



> "It's extremely disingenuous to pretend otherwise." It's appropriate to encourage folks to go over to the other forums. It's disingenuous to come on to this forum and indicate this box is the next upgrade step for a Tivo user and there won't be any problems.


If you're currently a DIRECTV customer with TiVo looking to stay with DIRECTV, and want to receiver HD channels from DIRECTV this fall, then yes, the HR20 DIRECTV DVR+ is the only way to go. That is not evangelism or preaching. It's fact.



> Short of DirecTV allowing a trial program, then only way anyone can make a decision is to read forums and do research on other places.


So why do you feel the need to trash the HR20 here instead of letting the user who asks about the HR20 go to the other site and find out firsthand? Simple - you don't like DIRECTV for discontinuing it's relationship with TiVo and you just want to spread FUD about the HR20.



> There are way too many other people who absolutely hate the box for me to be convinced that it is anything close to a Tivo. You can see that on the other forum.


First, I read DBSTalk.com every day and there is no way you can read that forum and come away with the perception that there are many people who hate it. Second, the HR20 is its own DVR and of course will have a different UI, so yes ... it's NOT a TiVo.



> It's one thing to not have problems with the box, but completely different to "would I like to have stayed with the Tivo?" And that's what I think you guys are ignoring.


No one's ignoring that. You're still ignoring the fact that people who ask about the HR20 here are entitled to an answer, and the people who answer are not going to go into in depth discussions about the HR20 each time, including the history of why the TiVo/DIRECTV relationship ended.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> He thinks he's getting under people's skin which it totally not happening. I laugh every time I see him post. :up:


But continue to debate with him at a feverish pace.... 

I'll say this, it makes for interesting reading.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

*



RS4, how much time have you spent trying out an HR20?

Click to expand...

*That's a great question, tfederov. About a month ago I called DirecTV to cancel my NFLST. The lady that finally came on pushed me off to another lady, my guess was that she was in customer retention. She offered the HR20 to me for $19.95. I asked how long I could review it and send it back if I didn't like it. She told me 2 years - yeah, that's some trial program all right. If I didn't like it, I was stuck with a 2 year-commitment.

I just got out of the HR10-250 commitment and have serious doubts about the HR20, so the answer to your question is 0 time, nada, nothing. I've formed my opinions on what I've read because DirecTV will not let me try it at home and send it back if I don't like it, but not be held to the 2-year commitment. Does that sound like a company who is proud of their product and who cares about the customer? No, of course not. That's not a company that I want to sign on to for another hitch.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

*Drew2k "It's obvious you have no interest in doing anything but bash the HR20, even when its pointed out to you that the people here who have FIRSTHAND knowledge of the HR20 are only correcting misinformation. You have no desire to do anything but spout about perceived HR20 shortcomings, and you ignored my comment about letting people form their own opinions by going to a forum of people who use the HR20 daily."*

Drew, I have pointed out time and again that folks should go over to dbstalk.com. I think their eyes will be opened and I encourage them to do that. I see a huge discontent their - people having problems with the box, people wanting stuff fixed, people not liking the UI and remote.

One reason I hope they go over there is because they'll see how hostile many of the folks are over there. A couple of examples: one guy complained about the remote - he was bombasted by users practically pointing out that he was a fool for even bringing up such an idea. In fact one responder called him names. A second poster pointed out that his box still didn't work very well and he depended on his HR10-250 for his important recordings and he was soundly chastised by other folks, practically calling him a liar because that wasn't happening to the responder. That's not the kind of forum that makes you feel welcome and feel like you can ask a question or offer an opinion that may go against the HR20.

As I've pointed out before, I am a long-time DirecTV customer. I doubt there are many customers left who have an active account below 13033. (I got my first satellite dish in 1984 and have loved the technology ever since.) I used to bring customers to DirecTV because I believed in them, especially after the Tivo came along.

But then, DirecTV has changed their operations in the last few years and I think the customers have suffered for that. The focus seems to have switched away from the customer and more towards the owners. Now, it looks like in the press that once they are under new management, one of the things being considered is to make them their own tracking stock, so again it looks like we the customers will suffer.

DirecTV's customer ratings have declined faster than any of their competitors, so I am not alone in my thinking. I think the HR20 is a perfect reflection of the attitude DirecTV now has towards the customer - a poorly executed product that is being forced on customers. That is one reason the survey numbers dropped so much.

My own preference would be for the Tivo customers to not rush to get the new box unless they absolutely need it. That is the only way that DirecTV will learn that customers are tired of their tactics.

DirecTV used to be full of innovation and the relationship with Tivo and UltimateTV were signs of that. But under the current ownership, they seemed to have abandoned that attitude. So they got rid of Tivo instead of offering their customers the features that were available on the Tivo stand-alone products. That meant they had to start over and they had a castrophy on their hands with the NDS product. The HR20 (and soon to be H21) are the results of those problems. They set themselves backwards in time to what - maybe 2001 when the DTivo came out.

It's a shame, because we could have had so much more. I've seen figures that as many as 1 in 5 people don't like the box. If that's the case, then DirecTV has a long way to go to win over the existing Tivo customer base.

It's clear that DirecTV has come out with a product that is not leading the technology trend. Oh sure it has mpeg4 and addon capability, but that's about it. I don't understand the emphasis of VOD. After all, isn't that what a dvr is in the first place? So, in my mind they are taking away 60 or 80 gig that I would prefer to have for my own needs.

The final proof in the pudding that this is just an ok box is in the endorsements that it isn't getting - especially from Tivo users. It seems like the majority of them accept it as a way of getting mpeg4, but they aren't shouting from the ceilings that this is a terrific new product.
Instead we see things like *" The HR20 UI isn't as pretty or user friendly, but the unit basically does the same thing."* from timb2112.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

RS4,
Yes the HR20 is different from TiVo. It take's some time to learn all of the functions and how to navigate through the menus. Yes the menus are not "intuitive" as TiVo. When I got my 1st TiVo, I had to learn how to use it. I am going through that learning curve with my HR20 now. I miss not having duel buffers and the vertical program guide, although there is a way to get a vertical guide on the channel that your are searching, (thanks drew2k), But there are features that I like on the HR20 the TiVo didn't have.
I installed an HR20 for my 87 year old dad. He is really working hard on learning how to use it. He hates change. The TiVo GUI was really designed for him in mind, ease of use, easy to learn and remember, so the HR20 is a real challenge for him, but he is learning it.
The bottom line is that it records the programs that I want to record, haven't missed one yet. Picture quality is good. I'm set for the upcoming MPEG4 channels when they come on line, and for now, it has enough storage space for the programs I save. As for the 2 year commitment, I don't have cable, so D* is my TV program provider and I don't see me leaving them any time to soon.
Would I like to see a MPEG4 D* TiVo, you bet!, Maybe way down the line D* will see the error of there way, but not going to wait for it. 
I don't think that getting out of a commitment is anything to brag about. Maybe I'm old fashion, but when I make a commitment to someone I stick to it.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> but not be held to the 2-year commitment. Does that sound like a company who is proud of their product and who cares about the customer? No, of course not. That's not a company that I want to sign on to for another hitch.


Dish's commitment is 18 months. Do they not care about their customers and aren't proud of their product?
Cell phone commitment is typically 2 years. They don't care either I guess.
*Tivo's commitment is from 1-3 years*. I'm guessing they aren't proud of their products either.

Your argument holds no water.

Listen, the 2 year commitment is really easy to get out of. I've told you time and again your cable company will buy you out pretty readily, unless your cable company really sucks and if it does you wouldn't consider them anyway. Then your only choice is Dish and I'm guessing you're not with them already because you think they suck too. So if you're with DirecTV for the long haul anyway why be afraid of a commitment? Not sure why you still get hung up on a commitment that is easy and painless to get out of with no extra out of pocket to you.

Good luck!


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> But continue to debate with him at a feverish pace....
> 
> I'll say this, it makes for interesting reading.


Yea, I was pretty bored this morning before we headed out to the state rec area and enjoyed the great outdoors instead of worrying about TV.  I think my plan is to try to just ignore RS4 from now on, unless I get bored again. 

It is amazing how worked up some people do get about their TV. I just sit down and watch my programs. Even if I had to have Charter cable, which sucks around here, I'd make the best of it because I'd still be able to watch CSI or whatnot each week. And in the end that is all that counts.


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

I've barely read any of this thread, but I had to say this. IT'S JUST TV. Stop peeing your pants over which dvr (you think) is better.  

There are so many productive things that could have been done instead of typing long drawn out posts about how bad the HR20 is. If anyone disagrees that that time could have been better spent, they need to get their priorities straight. How many people died from starvation while you were busy cleaning your pants from soiling yourself when you found Directv's new dvr doesn't have dual live buffers, etc.


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## dfioc (Sep 24, 2004)

Da Goon said:


> I've barely read any of this thread, but I had to say this. IT'S JUST TV. Stop peeing your pants over which dvr (you think) is better.
> 
> There are so many productive things that could have been done instead of typing long drawn out posts about how bad the HR20 is. If anyone disagrees that that time could have been better spent, they need to get their priorities straight. How many people died from starvation while you were busy cleaning your pants from soiling yourself when you found Directv's new dvr doesn't have dual live buffers, etc.


LOL!!


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

My HR20 was installed today. I'm keeping my HR10. Yes, they're different, but not in any way that is a "deal breaker" for me. The HR20 has some nice features TiVo lacks, and vice-versa.


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## dfioc (Sep 24, 2004)

stevel said:


> My HR20 was installed today. I'm keeping my HR10. Yes, they're different, but not in any way that is a "deal breaker" for me. The HR20 has some nice features TiVo lacks, and vice-versa.


I'm in the same boat; my HR20 gets installed this week but I'll be keeping my HR10. I originally was going to sell it but there's a ton already for sale on Ebay and for what they're selling for, I'll just go ahead and move it to another room. I needed a reason to buy another HDTV!!


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

stevel said:


> My HR20 was installed today. I'm keeping my HR10. Yes, they're different, but not in any way that is a "deal breaker" for me. The HR20 has some nice features TiVo lacks, and vice-versa.


stevel ... if you haven't checked them out yet, see the "TiVo to HR20 Survival Guide" and the "Undocumented Tips and Tricks" PDF docs in the HR20 Resources forum at DBSTalk.com ... they'll make it a little easier to learn and adapt to the UI, which is quite different from TiVo.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

Da Goon,
Your taking the time to read all of this, so I guess its more than "just TV" to you also. 
To a lot of people, it is a very personal thing. People may have a wife, kids, dog, cat and a DVR of one type or another. Its all part of the family so people get emotional about it when there is a forced change in how the GUI looks and how it is controlled.
This fourm is a place where people can vent there frustrations instead of taking it out on the family.


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## bbodin (Jan 21, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Dish's commitment is 18 months. Do they not care about their customers and aren't proud of their product?
> Cell phone commitment is typically 2 years. They don't care either I guess.
> *Tivo's commitment is from 1-3 years*. I'm guessing they aren't proud of their products either.
> 
> Your argument holds no water.


Cell phones have 2 year commitment, but you have 14 days to try it out and if you aren't satisfied they let you out of that commitment (at least with Verizon and Sprint)

I have no idea if that's the case with D*, but just wanted to point out it works this way for cellphones (and that is the way it SHOULD work on ANY long term commitments....you have a brief trial period that you can cancel out of if your not satisfied with the actual service).


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

> I have no idea if that's the case with D*, but just wanted to point out it works this way for cellphones (and that is the way it SHOULD work on ANY long term commitments....you have a brief trial period that you can cancel out of if your not satisfied with the actual service).


DirecTV told me that I was locked in for 2 more years regardless if I liked the thing or not. I've been with them since 1994. They would take it back alright, it's just that I would still be locked in.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

RS4 said:


> Scott, you amaze me. Here you are on a Tivo forum - not you're beloved HR20 - and when someone points out what the research says about D*s ne box, your solution is to come after me because I don't own one.
> 
> I've done a lot of research about that box, including the OTA. Earl points out that D* is probably saving money because they already have everything in the satellite. Well of course, that isn't true. D* is no where close to getting all of the local HD channels, so that means a customer needs OTA if they want to watch the OTA. And while I don't remember the costs of 3rd vs 5th (I don't think it was too much different), it just tells me the kind of effort D* is putting into the project.
> 
> ...


I prefer scanning as well, but the HR20 does not get ONE,ONE channel OTA that the HR10 can scan. It's one crappy weather station down here. That's it!

The signal strength is slightly better with VHF channels on the HR20 over the HR10. UHF the same.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

RS4 said:


> *"But to say the HR20 is a piece of crap..."*
> 
> What most of you fail to understand is the User Interface is a big deal to a lot of people, if it's not intuitive (which is a huge complaint), then in fact it will earn that reputation. I've seen enough complaints from Tivo users to believe DirecTV failed miserably in that category.


 What's not so "intuitive" about the HR20? Anyone over 10 yrs old and a 6th grade education *should* be able to figure it out in 5 minutes.
I picked it up in 2 min after just looking over the menus. It's not freaking quantum physics here!

Now I will say the remote is fine, but the button layout on the TiVo is a little better. But I use a Harmony remote. The wife thinks is fine and does feel a difference.

NOW, the Manual SUCKS on the HR20. You need that tips and tricks PDF on dbstalk to get some things. That's the only *real* fault I have.

Do you buy the same car everytime? Every dash board/interior is set-up different.
Are some cars you bought "less intuitive" then others?

Again, the TiVo UI is so kiddy like in graphics. BUT it DOES have a few features that I can see that die hard Tivo lovers want/need or won't give up.

I miss only two things and neither is critical as the HR20 more and better features.
The Wish list
The SPM
EDIT: I forgot the DLB!!

That's it for me.


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## Chuck_IV (Jan 1, 2002)

gio1269 said:


> What's not so "intuitive" about the HR20? Anyone over 10 yrs old and a 6th grade education *should* be able to figure it out in 5 minutes.
> I picked it up in 2 min after just looking over the menus. It's not freaking quantum physics here!
> 
> Now I will say the remote is fine, but the button layout on the TiVo is a little better. But I use a Harmony remote. The wife thinks is fine and does feel a difference.
> ...


Agreed. While I still resent the fact that the HR20 doesn't have DLB, getting used to the UI wasn't that difficult. What *IS* difficult for may Tivo people is letting go of the Tivo way of doing things. As the old saying goes, "it's hard to teach an old dog, new tricks".

I was guilty of it(and still am, to an extent, in wanting DLB). Because people are used to the Tivo way of doing things, being presented with a different way of doing things, may make it _seem_ more difficult, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is more difficult. It's just different. Now, don't get me wrong, there are a few things that aren't as intuitive in the HR20's UI, compared to Tivo's, but on the flipside, there are a few things the the HR20's UI does better than TIVO's.

For someone not having used a TIVO based interface prior, the HR20's should not be any more difficult, to get a handle on, than someone new to TIVO's UI.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Chuck_IV said:


> Agreed. While I still resent the fact that the HR20 doesn't have DLB, getting used to the UI wasn't that difficult. What *IS* difficult for may Tivo people is letting go of the Tivo way of doing things. As the old saying goes, "it's hard to teach an old dog, new tricks".
> 
> I was guilty of it(and still am, to an extent, in wanting DLB). Because people are used to the Tivo way of doing things, being presented with a different way of doing things, may make it _seem_ more difficult, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is more difficult. It's just different. Now, don't get me wrong, there are a few things that aren't as intuitive in the HR20's UI, compared to Tivo's, but on the flipside, there are a few things the the HR20's UI does better than TIVO's.
> 
> For someone not having used a TIVO based interface prior, the HR20's should not be any more difficult, to get a handle on, than someone new to TIVO's UI.


YES!!!I forgot about the DLB. That's my main and might be my only gripe!


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## stivovance (Feb 12, 2003)

I gave retention a call today as I've been patiently waiting the last couple of months to ensure at least the 1 new sat went up before I orderd the HR20. I told really nice guy my concerns and why I was wanting to upgrade, more channels and truth be told w/ the random guide issues and dvr service deactivations that are randomly happening. I want at least a shot in the dark to be able to watch the fall season in hd.

I never disclosed that I upgrade Tivos for a living or that I have researched any of this, etc, not playing dumb just not showing my cards at all. He was very honest and knowledgeable about the HR20s, equip even the multiswitches (I was quite impressed). Usually the cust retention folks are a step above the rest of the csr's but today he took it to a whole new level, I believe I was on the phone with him for a good 40 mins, some business some just chit chatting about directv and dvrs in general. He has an HR10 and an HR20 so he's gone through the transition himself.

Anyways, I think I got a pretty good deal. $99 each for the first 2 HR20s (owned) and the 3rd for free (owned), absolutely no contract extension or new commitment what so ever and I get 90 days to test drive these bad boys and if I don't like them, they go back no questions asked. New slimline dish, multiswitch, Free install, no shipping and I could have had them installed on Wed, but I'm having them installed on Fri instead. No run around about sending my owned HR10s back which is nice when they aren't trying to hassle you on something they shouldn't be doing so all in all I'm quite happy.

He didn't even hassle me on the protection plan, he asked I said not now but will most likely get it close to the year warranty is up on the Hr20s.

I had called about 2 months ago just inquiring about pricing and was given $199 plus shipping so it was $230ish with tax and delivery, 2 year contract renewal and regardless if it didn't work or didn't like it, I was stuck with the commitment.

I have gotten deals in the past on the HR10 almost 2 years ago, I think it was $300 and phase3 dish installed so wasn't expecting the red carpet treatment. While I didn't get the 19.95 deals most have been getting that seems to only on 1 HR20 and then about $199 on the 2nd one etc so I'm quite happy with the way things turned out. He didn't say oh hold on let me see what we can do or any of that nonsense just a straight shooting deal. If only every time I had to deal w/ new equipment and contracts (for anything) it could be like that.


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## joelq (Oct 9, 2006)

This debate reminds me of the Mac versus PC/Windows debates that have been going on forever. I used to be one of those Mac diehards about 15 years ago, but what got me to finally switch over to PC/Windows was the abundance of software, namely, games!  Basically, the availability of better content (software) trumped whatever advantages I thought the Mac had.

With respect to the HR10-250 versus HR20 debate, some people will say the HR10-250 UI is more elegant and more user friendly (as people were saying about the Mac UI), but some folks will say it is toy-like (again, as some people were saying about the Mac UI). But just like my experience with moving from the Mac to a PC, the availability of superior content will trump all.

I just replaced one of my HR10-250s with an HR20-100 last week and, I agree, the HR20 UI will take some getting used to. However, once the new HD content is available, I'm sure the HR20 UI will be just fine.


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## stivovance (Feb 12, 2003)

and for me I was on the other side of the trench, hated Macs didn't see a point to them, then I started using them and while they aren't jobs gift to the human race, they were alright. Now I like and use both. Bottom line is nothing is perfect it just takes some getting used to. For instance, my cell phone. I've had the same phone for going on 4 years in Jan, I do not want to switch phones, at some point I must. The reason I don't want to switch, ui learning curve. I don't want to learn menus and deal with the minor bugs etc that the phone might have.

As far the HR20 ui vs HR10, yes I know the HR10 backwards and forwards, don't have to think about it. HR20, I've played with it a little but that was almost a year ago when they were crashing every day. Now, we all at some point (if you want HD content) will need to learn one, I'm just getting mine early to take that learning curve out and to get a feel for it before it becomes a nightly routine.

Will it have some bumps, absolutely. Does the HR10 have bumps, yep. I do have to commend directv though on the semi-quick software fixes and how many releases they have had since the product launch. The HR10 has been out what, almost 3 years? What has it had, 5-7 software releases (of which 2 or 3 of those where oh sh*t software fixes)? I'm not sure how many directv has put out since the HR20 release but I'm pretty sure it's close to or over that amount, so they are trying.

Bottom line is these people who knock something (HR20) because it isn't a tivo are just funny to me. Yes, the HR20 totally sucked beyond words about a year ago, 12 lockups in an hour and it went back in the box. Most of those problems have been solved w/ the software updates, so I feel much more comfortable adding to my hardware arsenal.

If they have used it, fine they are entitled to their opinion, but it seems more people than not aren't having major problems. I'm not saying people's claims aren't valid either with having problems, but forums usually attract more posts of problems than not but it seems more people have been posting their success stories with the HR20 than any other DVR that I've seen in recent years. 

If you don't have dual buffers, big deal, record both shows, it's not that hard of a work around but that isn't a major factor to me as I almost never watch live tv, because I'm using a DVR and don't have to.


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## Ein (Jul 7, 2004)

It's nothing like Mac vs. PC. With DirecTV you don't have a choice. It's either the HR-20 or the HR-20.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Ein said:


> With DirecTV you don't have a choice. It's either the HR-20 or the HR-20.


Is the Tivo HR10-250 not a choice? What does the HR10-250 not have (if you can get OTA HiDef locals)? Pie in the sky they've been talking about for a year now.

If DirecTV actually delivers (and I don't believe they will until Murdoch and his subservient idiots and shills are actually out the door with bootprints on their ass, still a month or so) and we've at least got a shot at competent management), deal with the situation THEN. Until THEN, the HR10-250 is viable choice for many.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Redux said:


> What does the HR10-250 not have (if you can get OTA HiDef locals)?


Strictly answering your question, as of this moment in time, the HR10-250* does not have the following features that the HR20 has, which is not an all-inclusive list:

 MPEG4 recording capability
 90-minute buffer 
 Caller ID
 Picture-in-Menu
 One-Click recording from Live TV, the Guide, and Search Results
 Two-Click establishment of Series Links (DVR+ form of Season Pass - press RECORD twice in Live TV, the Guide, Search Results)
 Three Click Cancellation of Series Links (press RECORD three times)
 Ability to set default recording options (Keep at most, Shot Type - Repeat,First Run Only, etc.) for immediate use when establishing a Series Link
 Active eSATA port with instant support of eSATA drive - plug it in and reboot, it's used in place of the internal drive and you have as much recording space as you want 
 Free space bar in the Playlist, showing percentage of space available 
 Access to a list of the last four channels visited
 Group/Batch Play - Press PLAY on a folder to play all programs sequentially
 Ability to expand/collapse all Groups to see or hide all individual program titles
 Ability to filter your Playlist to show only programs from a category you specify
 More sorting options for the Playlist: sort ascending or descending on Titles, Channel Number, Expiration, Price; or show Groups First or Last
 Two-click deletion of an entire Group (folder) of titles from the playlist
 Ability to Mark & Delete one or several Playlist programs for deletion
 Active network port
 Music & Photos shared from a home Media Server
 Interactive features (Lottery, Weather, your DIRECTV account, etc.)
 Interactive channels, like News Mix, Sports Mix, YES, etc. showing enhanced content
 Help Screens
 Context Sensitive Menus - the pop-up menu changes based on current feature in use
 Support for single-wire-module installation - run one line into the HR20 and get dual-tuner support (external SWM switch required)

*unhacked

You will of course now feel obligated to post a list of what the HR10 has that the HR20 doesn't, but that is outside the scope of the question I am responding to.



> Pie in the sky they've been talking about for a year now.


Not a clue what you're talking about.



> If DirecTV actually delivers ...


Delivers what? The HD expansion? Video-on-Demand? The new single-wire-module (SWM) multiswitch?



> ... (and I don't believe they will until Murdoch and his subservient idiots and shills are actually out the door with bootprints on their ass, still a month or so) and we've at least got a shot at competent management), deal with the situation THEN. Until THEN, the HR10-250 is viable choice for many.


You can continue to use the HR10-250 as long as you want, but if you want to record the new national HD channels from DIRECTV coming out this September, you need to get a different receiver (the HR20).

If you want to record Video-on-Demand when it comes out, you need to get a different receiver (HR20).

If you want to use a dual-tuner DIRECTV DVR in a room that has only one RG6 line, and you can't run a second line, you need to get a different receiver (HR20) and a SWM. (Currently in use by testers, and likely to be in installers' hands n September for general installation.)

You can argue all you want that none of this is available to the general public now, but all of the above *will* be within the next couple of months, and that doesn't mean consumers can't start planning - identify what's important to them. None of what's coming means you can't continue to use the HR10, but you will certainly not be able to record the new national HD channels and unless something changes, you will certainly not have access to Video-on-Demand. That is your choice to make if you don't want to use anything but the HR10.


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## joelq (Oct 9, 2006)

Ein said:


> It's nothing like Mac vs. PC. With DirecTV you don't have a choice. It's either the HR-20 or the HR-20.


My point was that content is king! If you want to stay with your HR10-250 and record the whopping 9 HD channels DirecTV currently offers (for who knows how long), more power to you! 15 years ago, I left what I considered to be a more elegant platform (Macs) for a platform with superior content (PCs), and it was worth the pain of dealing with Windows.


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## Cruzan (Dec 21, 2001)

drew2k said:


> Strictly answering your question, as of this moment in time, the HR10-250* does not have the following features that the HR20 has, which is not an all-inclusive list:
> 
> (long list of features)


Even with all that, I won't move to the HR20 because it doesn't support wishlists. I have 70 of them, and I set and forget 'em. If the HR20 gets persistent, large volume wishlist equivalents, I'll consider it. Otherwise, I'm off to Comcast.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Cruzan said:


> Even with all that
> , I won't move to the HR20



There is _nothing_ on that list except an asterisk. Personally, to get a dozen minor tweaks, I'd rather hack an existing platform (as well-described in TCF) rather than change platforms. And of course once you've done the hack and added some free and widely available software, the HR10-250 beomes a super-machine that the HR20 will never even remotely come close to.

The only valid argument the anti-Tivo advocates have, content is king, is promises and speculation. But if you have locals OTA you have all the content right now, on the Tivo HR10-250, and there is no need to change platforms. When and if the situation changes, 100 new HiDef channels, I will look at the added content. I don't need 27 variations of Starz, I have to take the 100 new channels, weed out what I'd probably not watch anyway, and then I'll know about new, valuable content and the need for changing platforms.

Frankly, at the point TCM, FMC, IFC and Sundance become available HiDef via DirecTV, and not from my local Cable or FIOS, I'll probably buy whatever the current DirecTV HiDef model is, as a supplement to the HR10-250. But I see no reason to do it now.

When and if I do that, what I will still NOT do is come here and piss all over Tivo. I will honor the wishes and policy of the owner of the forum.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Redux said:


> When and if I do that, what I will still NOT do is come here and piss all over Tivo. I will honor the wishes and policy of the owner of the forum.


And if people would just let the HR20 threads die after people are directed elsewhere then that would be the end of it. But of course people can't stand not attacking the HR20 with FUD and thus it begins. Again and again. Not sure why FUD is allowed and an open discourse on the various platforms is not.

However, if it were truly the forum wishes to snuff out all HR20 talk the offending threads can be closed or deleted. Not a single one has yet thus the mods and owners are allowing it by those non actions. So get over it.


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## Whynot (Jul 21, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> And if people would just let the HR20 threads die after people are directed elsewhere then that would be the end of it.


That's funny coming from you!


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

For all of the people that have viewed and posted here, I wish to thank The Moderator Mike Lang for letting this thread live. It seems to be very popular with its 132 post and 11k+ views.
I started this thread because I didn't want to have to subscribe at DBStalk, and didn't want to give all of the information the subscription required. Also, I didn't see a running thread that had such a diverse discussion of the HR10/HR20 debate.

Thanks Mike


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Whynot said:


> That's funny coming from you!


There are times I think he's doing satire, but he's pretty flat-footed for that; I think it's intended to be for real.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

BOBCAT said:


> I started this thread because I didn't want to have to subscribe at DBStalk, and didn't want to give all of the information the subscription required.


Out of curiousity... what information was that?
The "required" information is a user name, and email address...
Everything else is optional...

And in fact it is the same requirements as TCF... considered they are both owned by the same person: David Bott

(Both TCF and DBSTalk are part of the AVSForum family of sites)


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## Charlutz (Apr 7, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> Out of curiousity... what information was that?
> The "required" information is a user name, and email address...
> Everything else is optional...
> 
> ...


What fun is it to argue if you're going to reply with facts and common sense?


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

I have never understood the logic of why you have to pay for the box if you were leasing it. Maybe a refundable deposit....but why upfront money thats never returned?


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> And if people would just let the HR20 threads die after people are directed elsewhere then that would be the end of it.


"Rim shot!"
I find this to be humorously ironic in nature. It falls into the "duck season - rabbit theathon" category.


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## JoeTiVo (Jun 25, 2001)

Okay... I succumbed and did the dirty deed. I feel greasy. 

I've been wait and waiting, but finally decided to go ahead and upgrade my HR10-250 to the HR20. It's a sad day here in this Tivo family (we even have matching license plates, TIVOGUY and TIVOGAL). I got the deal at NO charge, but I was required to 'trade-in' the HR10. I didn't realize that was going to happen, but I guess it's not a big deal as, and this what concerns me, I was told I really had no option if I wanted to continue to receive HD. The retention rep told me that by the end of the year, the HR10 will be obsolete as they are moving all of the HD channels to the new Sat and to the MPEG4 format. Is this true? I've read most of the threads here on the subject, but I must have missed that fact?

We still have one Tivo (and old Sony Series1) left that we use on standard def TVs. But it's still quite a culture shock to use to know we'll not be using a Tivo for our main viewing in our home theater.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Redux said:


> There is _nothing_ on that list except an asterisk. Personally, to get a dozen minor tweaks, I'd rather hack an existing platform (as well-described in TCF) rather than change platforms.


So what you're saying is if you want to get the features that the HR20 offers, you need to hack the HR10? How thoughtless of DIRECTV to add to the HR20 features that users want so badly that they go out of their way to hack the HR10!


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## JoeTiVo (Jun 25, 2001)

Btw... what is DLB? I hate when I"m missing something and I don't even know what it is.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

JoeTiVo said:


> The retention rep told me that by the end of the year, the HR10 will be obsolete as they are moving all of the HD channels to the new Sat and to the MPEG4 format. Is this true? I've read most of the threads here on the subject, but I must have missed that fact?


It is true that they will move the current HD channels to Mpeg 4, but I doubt it will happen by the end of this year. I would guess sometime next year as they will have to convert all the HR10 holdouts to HR20.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

JoeTiVo said:


> Btw... what is DLB? I hate when I"m missing something and I don't even know what it is.


DLB=Dual Live Buffer. SLB=Single Live Buffer. DLB is the ability to toggle between two tuners that are independently buffering live TV.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Whynot said:


> That's funny coming from you!


Sure is. Only time I post "crazy" is after a thread gets attacked. Otherwise all you'll see from me is perhaps a quick answer to the question with a link to DBSTalk and nothing more. Usually by the 4th reply.

If left alone it would die.

But some people can't let it alone and must swoop in on the attack. Of course then it's on. 

I challenged RS4 after repeated accusations once to prove otherwise, he has yet to do so. Because he can't.


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## JoeTiVo (Jun 25, 2001)

bigpuma said:


> It is true that they will move the current HD channels to Mpeg 4, but I doubt it will happen by the end of this year. I would guess sometime next year as they will have to convert all the HR10 holdouts to HR20.


Right... the rep was probably trying to help convince me I was making the right decision. Oh well.. it had to be done sooner or later. Hopefully, D* and Tivo can renew their working relationship so there will be a new HD DTivo sometime in the near future.

My wife and I were damn near ready to cry watching TV tonight knowing it's one of the last few times with our faithful Tivo. We've been loyal users for many years.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

*



I challenged RS4 after repeated accusations once to prove otherwise, he has yet to do so. Because he can't.

Click to expand...

*No, it's because I didn't have enough time to write the 5000 lines or response.


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## JoeTiVo (Jun 25, 2001)

drew2k said:


> DLB=Dual Live Buffer. SLB=Single Live Buffer. DLB is the ability to toggle between two tuners that are independently buffering live TV.


Ouch... that's going to hurt not having that. I use that quite a bit. Especially during the Sunday Ticket. 

Thanks for the info.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

> So what you're saying is if you want to get the features that the HR20 offers, you need to hack the HR10? How thoughtless of DIRECTV to add to the HR20 features that users want so badly that they go out of their way to hack the HR10!


Isn't it amazing not that DirecTV has their own box, they see fit to emulate features that Tivo had on their stand alone boxes, but yet DirecTV wouldn't activate on the DTivo boxes?  Oh yeah, tell me again how responsive DirecTV is to it's customers.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> No, it's because I didn't have enough time to write the 5000 lines or response.


No, all you gotta do is point out any HR20 threads in the past couple months where I *didn't* start out simply referring a user to another site and perhaps a simple answer to the question at hand. Only when the thread is attacked, filled with Fud and so forth do I get bored at work and write a book in response to such ill.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

drew2k said:


> So what you're saying ...


You're not that dumb; I've seen you around.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

JoeTiVo
If your HR10 isn't a leased unit, why did you let them bully you into turning in your HR10? That is not what they normally do. If you bought it, you own it.
You should call them back and tell them that you want to keep it for now and pay the $21.90 shipping deal that they have been giving everyone.
When they install the new dish, they will install an 8 port multi switch if you tell them that you want the extra ports available for future use.
If they had told me that I would have had to turn mine in, I would have told them to keep it, and bought a HR20 on ebay. 
I got the $21.90 deal from D* for my 1st unit, then went on ebay and bought 2 more that I own, not leased. Installed one for my dad, and will install the other one here as soon as the new sats go on line.
You should tell them that you want to keep your HR10, or they can keep the HR20. Will bet you that they will back down and let you keep it. The most that they may do is make you pay the $21.90 shipping deal.
Remember that "NO never hurts" and you have nothing to loose by trying!


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Yea, they gave up on wanting the HR10's back a long time ago. They have no need for them so they don't care if you keep it. In fact they would rather you keep it activated so they get the extra mirror free. You probably got a CSR still using a really old call script. Call back and talk to retention and you can keep your HR10 (assuming you want to keep it activated that is).


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## JoeTiVo (Jun 25, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> Yea, they gave up on wanting the HR10's back a long time ago. They have no need for them so they don't care if you keep it. In fact they would rather you keep it activated so they get the extra mirror free. You probably got a CSR still using a really old call script. Call back and talk to retention and you can keep your HR10 (assuming you want to keep it activated that is).


Did exactly that this morning and was told the other rep was mistaken. I can keep my HR10 and they 'would gladly relocate it for me' if I like.

You nailed that one.


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## trehutch (Jan 24, 2004)

I tried the e-mail route but once they finally got around to calling my like 96 hours not 48 like the e-mail said they wanted to offer me the $99 deal. I have 2 HD tivos and I said that is not acceptable since it is a lease and it is still theri equipment, but he wouldn't budge. $99 for each box plus shipping I said I would think about it and hung up, that was last night 8/7. I called today 8/8 around 4pm PST and talked to Matt. He was awesome here is what I got

2 HR20's Free
3 months Showtime, HBO, Starz, Free
HD Access 6 months, Free
5 LNB Dish, Free
Keep my HD Tivo's
19.95 shipping and handling charge

Last week this is what I got

Super Fan, free,
$10 12 month credit good customer award

All for $19.95

All I can say is be persistent. I love ya Tivo and will be happy to come back once a new box gets developed. Now the biggest battle will be helping the wife figure out the new interface, oh boy!!!!!


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## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

Decided to call tonight to see what was available to upgrade two HR10-250s. CSR said $199 apiece plus $19.95 shipping. I said I didn't want to pay that much so I would wait to see what HD channels were added before upgrading. Then she asked me if my H20's had B-Band converters; I said yes. Then she said she would transfer me to someone in retention that could offer a lower price. I don't know how we jumped from one subject to another, but I said that would be fine.

Retention CSR looked at my account (Customer since 2/2002; NFL ticket; superfan; NBA League pass; multiple receivers) and said she could offer 2 HR20s @ $99 apiece, but she would credit the $198 and only charge $19.95 shipping. As she was entering info onto the account she said she would waive the shipping charge for a total charge of $0.00. Includes second 6x8 multiswitch. She said I keep the HR10-250s, but two-year commitment will start over. I just kept saying "Uh huh", "Okay", as she was knocking off charges.

Seemed like a fair deal so I took it. Tech coming out Saturday morning.


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## mprh (Mar 30, 2003)

Supposedly there is a new HR 21 in the works, no info available yet. When the new dish and hr 20 is installed along with the b band converter make sure the dish is stable and all lines are tightened. direct sat had to come back 3 times to install my equipment correctly.
I have not seen the new hi def channels that was supposed to be activated on the 19th.

MPRH


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