# Just a gripe on Tech Support



## Andy in NYC (Apr 3, 2002)

I had my TV installer add a VHF antenna in my attic - they installed a UHF antenna years ago when all the Philly stations (and everyone else was supposed to) had UHF only. Now ABC and PBS are VHF, so I had him add an antenna.

Well the HR10-250's OTA tuner is really outdated and doesn't do well with all the channels in comparison to the tuners in the various TV's and the two tuners in a MythTV box - but that's probably to be expected.

Unfortunately, when I called DirecTV to ask how to pick up all the OTA channels I now receive (the antenna is pointed to and picks up all the NY stations), I got a 'it picks up what it picks up' answer. They couldn't tell me how to tell the guide (which is the only way the Tivo knows what channel to physically tune to) what channels were available.

Fortunately I used this site's search feature and had the answer to add a secondary area - and all the channels scanned and are available.

Boo DirecTV tech support. Yea Tivocommunity.

Thanks

Now I need to swap out my Leviton 8x1 signal booster/splitter and replace it with a Channel Master 4db version; my installer tells me that may help me get the Tivo to lock onto the slightly flaky channels. For $40 how can I go wrong.

Andrew


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Actually, the HR10 can do a channel scan of the ATSC channels and doesn't rely on the guide for tuning. It does rely on the guide for program info, so the solution you found is better. I can sort-of understand the DirecTV support reps not realizing that the old HR10 can do something the HR2x series cannot (channel scan), but they should have understood about adding a secondary area which applies to all models.


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## Andy in NYC (Apr 3, 2002)

They knew nothing.

Initial rep even consulted her 'supervisor'.

The channel scan doesn't seem to really scan (the one under re-doing Guided Setup). Maybe it does, but it didn't show me new channels, much less fill in the guide.

It now works, but the OTA tuners in the HR10 are a little long in the tooth and don't lock on as well as the TV sets I have or the computer tuner cards in the Myth box.


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

Most of the CSRs probably weren't around when the HR10s were the main receivers.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

joed32 said:


> Most of the CSRs probably weren't around when the HR10s were the main receivers.


add to teh fact the unit has been discontinued for years and they have no responsiblity to support a discontinued product.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Andy in NYC said:


> ...the HR10-250's OTA tuner is really outdated and doesn't do well with all the channels in comparison to the tuners in the various TV's....
> 
> Now I need to swap out my Leviton 8x1 signal booster/splitter and replace it with a Channel Master 4db version; my installer tells me that may help me get the Tivo to lock onto the slightly flaky channels. For $40 how can I go wrong.
> 
> Andrew


You can easily go wrong. HR10 veterans know that one of the problems with the HR10 tuner is that it is sensitive to high signal levels, and will overload in the face of too-strong signals.

Many a HR10 reception problem has been solved by simply NOT using an amp, preamp, or "booster", or even by inserting a higher value splitter or an attenuator into the antenna downlead, all with the goal of LOWERING the signal level, which in a overload situation, actually reduces intersymbol interference, the nemesis of digital reception, which is caused by IM distortion in the tuner front end. Lowering the signal level may sound a bit counter-intuitive, but for digital reception on a too-sensitive tuner (read: HR10-250), it actually makes a lot of sense under many common circumstances.

IOW, less may be more. Analog reception depended upon having the highest signal with the least noise possible. While those are secondary goals for digital reception, having just enough signal to be over a particular threshold is now a primary goal, as is having a low ratio of multipath interference. The rules have changed.

What is criminal is that while add-ons like "boosters" used to solve analog reception problems while also "boosting" the installer's profit margin, these days it can typically only do the latter, yet many unscrupulous installers will BS folks into buying them because their "solution" to your so-called problem is in their best self interest, while solving the actual problem is only in yours.

The best course is to take all of that crap out of the line and see if things don't improve first, and then and only then add new crap as needed.

But your installer is right about one thing, which is that IF YOU ACTUALLY NEED A PREAMP (and unless you are 30 or more miles away from the transmit towers you don't and it would not help you anyway), the CM preamps are the best, as they have a very low noise figure compared to the Leviton and others, and that can help when the signal levels are marginal at the antenna.


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## Andy in NYC (Apr 3, 2002)

sjberra said:


> add to teh fact the unit has been discontinued for years and they have no responsiblity to support a discontinued product.


I disagree; they certainly have a responsibility to support a product they continue to charge me to use.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Andy in NYC said:


> I disagree; they certainly have a responsibility to support a product they continue to charge me to use.


They have something like 18 million active subscribers. Maybe 10,000 HR10's that are still active. They have offered more than once to swap out your HR10 with newer equipment that is supported. You can keep expecting them provide support for obsolete equipment but you are just asking to be disappointed. They aren't going to train tech support on equipment they will most likely never get a call about.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Andy in NYC said:


> I disagree; they certainly have a responsibility to support a product they continue to charge me to use.


Sorry no they do not, it is by YOUR choice you keep it, they have no requirement to support something that is discontinued, they can withdraw support at any time


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## patnmike427 (Sep 9, 2002)

Andy in NYC said:


> I disagree; they certainly have a responsibility to support a product *they continue to charge me to use.*


Andy, you nailed it right there...



HiDefGator said:


> They have something like 18 million active subscribers. Maybe 10,000 HR10's that are still active.


Perhaps true, but, in and of itself, 10,000 ain't exactly small potatoes...what I really want to know is, once DTV shut off the MPEG-2 channels, did they discount/reduce the customer's bill accordingly? Anyone know for sure?



HiDefGator said:


> They have offered more than once to swap out your HR10 with newer equipment that is supported. You can keep expecting them provide support for obsolete equipment but you are just asking to be disappointed. They aren't going to train tech support on equipment they will most likely never get a call about.


"Likely" and "never" are two different words...



sjberra said:


> Sorry no they do not, it is by YOUR choice you keep it, they have no requirement to support something that is discontinued, they can withdraw support at any time


Maybe your statements above are true...but I sure hope you do not work in any kind of customer service or customer-facing position, with that attitude! Sure, they discontinued the HR10...and less than 2 (TWO) years later, its PRIMARY function-recording/viewing HD content-became worthless...and let me remind you that MANY people-myself included-purchased the HR10 outright for a pretty penny ($499 in late '05), AND paid an extra monthly fee for this service...so pardon our outrage because our expensive equipment is nothing more than a doorstop now...and if no one at DTV now is familiar with this unit, shame on THEM-NOT the customer!

Funny thing is, that "other" DVR company-the one whose products this forum discusses-discontinued their first two "series" of DVRs almost FIVE years ago now, but yet you can still get support for them.

What a company "can" do support-wise is one thing; what they "choose" to do, in terms of serving the PAYING customer, is another...


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

No matter what, they are not under any responsbility to support you - if you are having hardware issues - the device is not manufacturered any more, nor is Directv required to replace it with the sam equipment - if you are having software issues, the software was coded by Tivo - talk to them

I bet if you need parts, software issue you will find it is not supported as you think it is. I still have one running in the garage for when I am working on my 69 Shelby GT500, the other 5 have met their fate with MR & Mr's Wesson on the farm.

I do not expect Directv to support the running device, replace it with a HR2X is about it the extent of what i expect. Yes I am charged the 5 bucks for Mirroring, but the HD fee would have been dropped if I did not have any other HD capable Directv dvr's on the account.;


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Andy in NYC said:


> I disagree; they certainly have a responsibility to support a product they continue to charge me to use.


Except they've probably been mailing you notices that it's not supported with offers to replace it for free with a supported HD-DVR.

They don't support it anymore and you can have it replaced for free.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

I'm sorry to beat the dead horse, but you called DirecTV about a Tivo. They didn't know jack about tivo's when they were selling them. Today, they don't even know what "tivo" is -- they think "DVR" when you say tivo.

Also, the tuner in the HR10 is absolutely horrible. It was what was available when they designed it. That was many years ago!


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## patnmike427 (Sep 9, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Except they've probably been mailing you notices that it's not supported...


Umm, maybe you did, but I never got anything from DTV regarding my HR10-250...not before they cut the MPEG-2 channels off, or after...right up until a month+ ago when I dropped DTV for FiOS.



Adam1115 said:


> ...with offers to replace it for free with a supported HD-DVR.


Define "free"...when my Dad (a 15+ year DTV subscriber) inquired about replacing his HR10-250, sure, there was no "up front" cost, BUT he had to "extend" his contract for another two FULL years. So much for considering it a "replacement"...I guess in their eyes it's an upgrade (a debate for another forum...)



Adam1115 said:


> They don't support it anymore and you can have it replaced for free.


DTV never did a good job of supporting it back then, either. See below-



cramer said:


> I'm sorry to beat the dead horse, but you called DirecTV about a Tivo. They didn't know jack about tivo's when they were selling them. Today, they don't even know what "tivo" is -- they think "DVR" when you say tivo.
> 
> Also, the tuner in the HR10 is absolutely horrible. It was what was available when they designed it. That was many years ago!


And what exactly would you consider the HR21-cutting edge technology??? Remember, if you wanted OTA on it, you had to get that abomination called the A21 (I think)...and of course, the 21 required those damned B-band dongles...yep, great design there!


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The AM21 is really quite a good tuner - better than what is in the HR10. Since most DirecTV users aren't interested in OTA, keeping the OTA tuner separate makes sense.

The BBCs were a workaround to an enhancement to the dish - nice that they had a solution that could be retrofitted. Newer models don't need the BBC, or one can use SWM which also does away with them.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

patnmike427 said:


> ...and let me remind you that MANY people-myself included-purchased the HR10 outright for a pretty penny ($499 in late '05), AND paid an extra monthly fee for this service...so pardon our outrage because our expensive equipment is nothing more than a doorstop now.


I paid $1200 for my first HR10 and $1000 for my 2nd one. I also paid $500 for my first Sony A1 with a single lnb round dish. With inflation that was probably close to $1000 by today's standards. All Directv equipment becomes obsolete over time. This is not anything new.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

patnmike427 said:


> Umm, maybe you did, but I never got anything from DTV regarding my HR10-250...not before they cut the MPEG-2 channels off, or after...right up until a month+ ago when I dropped DTV for FiOS.


Are you just trying to argue? You didn't get it, fine. Like you mentioned, it was pretty obvious in *2008* when the channels went black. Yet, here you are 2 1/2 years later telling us you didn't know the HR10 is obsolete.



patnmike427 said:


> Define "free"...when my Dad (a 15+ year DTV subscriber) inquired about replacing his HR10-250, sure, there was no "up front" cost, BUT he had to "extend" his contract for another two FULL years. So much for considering it a "replacement"...I guess in their eyes it's an upgrade (a debate for another forum...)


Incorrect, no contract extension for replacement. And so what if there was, your MPEG 2 shut off over two years ago. You'd already be out of contract again, what would it have costed you...?

But, *if* he was told that, that was not correct.



patnmike427 said:


> And what exactly would you consider the HR21-cutting edge technology??? Remember, if you wanted OTA on it, you had to get that abomination called the A21 (I think)...and of course, the 21 required those damned B-band dongles...yep, great design there!


Woa, you're behind the times. DirecTV supports HD-locals now, almost nobody needs OTA tuners. The HR21 has been obsolete for years. We're up to the HR24 now. No AM21, my locals are working great! No b-band or any other dongles.

Not sure what you're talking about...


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## patnmike427 (Sep 9, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Are you just trying to argue? You didn't get it, fine. Like you mentioned, it was pretty obvious in *2008* when the channels went black. Yet, here you are 2 1/2 years later telling us you didn't know the HR10 is obsolete.


1--No, I'm not trying to argue; just taking the OP's side, if you will, since I rec'd no notification of any kind regarding ANY equipment "upgrade", free or otherwise;

2--Yeah, the HDs went black-SD continued to function just fine...that's why my HR10 became the bedroom DVR (SD CRT TV);

3--NO, I did NOT "not know" is was "obsolete"-I knew damn well that thanks to the DTV/TiVo divorce my ability to receive HD on my HR10 was going to be gone...and it was DTV who made the decision to "obsolesce" this receiver...and that decision is debatable-more on that below.



Adam1115 said:


> Incorrect, no contract extension for replacement. And so what if there was, your MPEG 2 shut off over two years ago. You'd already be out of contract again, what would it have costed you...?
> 
> But, *if* he was told that, that was not correct.


Which comes as no surprise...you have a better chance of winning EVERY roll at a craps table than you have of getting the same answer out of any dozen CSRs at DTV.



Adam1115 said:


> Woa, you're behind the times. DirecTV supports HD-locals now, almost nobody needs OTA tuners.


"Almost nobody"? Umm, ever heard of OTA HD sub-channels, aka 4.1, 4.2, etc.? Depending on one's local area, these subs sometime have valuable programming on them.



Adam1115 said:


> The HR21 has been obsolete for years.


HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Really? That's funny, it truly is...if you happen to be one of the unfortunate suckers who's stuck with this disaster, you are up the creek...DTV has warehouses stuffed to the rafters with refurbed HR21s...and, no matter how long you're a subscriber, or your package level, you cannot-period-get an upgrade to the below-mentioned HR24...UNLESS you're willing to part with two Benjamins AND tack on another two-year term.



Adam1115 said:


> We're up to the HR24 now.


Glad to hear that you are...again, despite my begging and pleading, DTV would not upgrade my (YOUR word) "obsolete" HR21...the only way I could get the HR24 would be through an online vendor other than DTV.



Adam1115 said:


> No AM21, my locals are working great! No b-band or any other dongles.
> 
> Not sure what you're talking about...


Again, maybe the 24 doesn't need 'em, but the 21s sure did.


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