# GoT "The Rains of Castamere" 6/2/13



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

What a beautiful wedding!!!


Oh wait.. It's a blood bath!


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Wow. That was brutal.


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## magaggie (Apr 9, 2002)

I was completely unspoiled for this episode. The room cleared, the song started playing, I got sick to my stomach, and my jaw fell open. I asked Demandred "did that just happen? Is Robb dead?" He gave me a sympathetic frown and nodded. 

What the F, George R. R. Martin!!?!?!?!?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

That was something that I thought was missing from this season (Characters getting killed). I wished it hadn't been him, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

My wife sat for a whole minute during the silent credits seething. I told her Arya would make it to the Twins where Robb and Catelyn where at. She assumed that meant a happy ending. She was none too pleased.

That being said, she now wants Daenerys to bring her army over and whoop some Lannister butt.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I am blown away. Especially since I have not read the books. Curious what happens Edmure and his "bride".


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Holy crap! Did not see this ne coming. Kinda bummed. I was looking forward to Robb taking casterly rock. A shocking twist. Clearly, nobody is safe.

I guess that thing with stannis' witch and the leaches and kings blood really meant something. Who were the other two people she cursed?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Jeoffery, and Danny Greyjoy Sr.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

smbaker said:


> Holy crap! Did not see this ne coming. Kinda bummed. I was looking forward to Robb taking casterly rock. A shocking twist. Clearly, nobody is safe.
> 
> I guess that thing with stannis' witch and the leaches and kings blood really meant something. Who were the other two people she cursed?


Balon Greyjoy (Theon's father) and Joffrey Baratheon.

In that order.

So, do you believe in magic, or was Robb's assassination just bad coincidence and Tywin just pulled off a master stroke?


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

<music>it's a nice day for a.........red wedding!</music>


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

Oh, my gosh. I cried when Catelyn was just standing there waiting to have her throat cut. It was all so shocking.

I had expected them to kill Robb's wife, but before the wedding so that Robb would marry one of their girls. Once the wedding went through and all seemed well, I relaxed. That was a mistake.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

OK non book readers - help out with a discussion that those of us who have read the books have been talking about ALL season. When Bolton does the deed on Robb, did you feel betrayed and outraged? Or was it more like, "Oh yeah - that guy...well, that sucks for Robb..." See, in the books, Bolton is a MUCH more developed and important character. In addition, Robb himself is more fleshed out. So when the Red Wedding (as this will be called) happens, its just absolutely gut wrenching. My first copy of the third book met its death in a swimming pool. My wife was seated behind me reading it when I saw the book fly over my head and land in the pool. "Red Wedding, huh?" I said to her. Luckily, there was a nearby book seller. It has been an ongoing discussion if the events would register the same for TV viewers as they did for those of us who read the books.

Fun fact - as many of you know, these books are written in third person POV. The interesting thing is the POV alters between chapters, hopping from one main (or sometimes minor) character to another, sometimes not returning for hundreds of pages. The Red Wedding scene was told from Catelyn's POV. You get her POV as she hears the Rains of Castamere start and she realizes the gig is up. Her POV as Robb is run through. And her point of view as, obviously, she is killed. Just superb writing on Martin's part - probably one of the best chapters of the entire series.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

It's just unfair that a show that's this good is only an hour long, and only 10 episodes a year.

Unfair, I tell you!


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

magaggie said:


> What the F, George R. R. Martin!!?!?!?!?


This!!!

Wow! Just......wow! I don't even know what to think.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm all over the place with this one, on one hand I realize that there is still a lot to go in the series, but to me it seems like Martin consistently takes the characters away from anything resembling a conclusion. I'm not saying that I want all the dead characters to stand up at the end and start singing "Happy Ending, Happy Ending", but at the same time things just seem to keep spiraling farther and farther out of control. There are people who stopped watching after the first season who said "If no one is safe, how can I get invested in them?" I'm not there yet, but I'm now closer to that mindset.

Now commentary on the eposode:
When Winterfell was burning in the opening credits, I pondered "Will it burn all season?" -- I guess that is a yes. 

I know the Lannisters always pay their debts, but does Frey really think that he is going to come out ahead relative to where he would have been if he backed Robb?
I didn't recognize Bolton as the one who finished off Robb, but it makes sense in retrospect.

We've now had 2 episodes without Theon -- hopefully that gets resolved next week, I'm going with Bolton as his captor, it makes sense now, assuming he was the double agent in Robb's camp all along.

If the Red Queen's magic had a hand in Robb's doom, does that mean that Greyjoy Sr, and Joffrey will meet their end next week? (Greyjoy Sr -- yeah he might as well die, Joffrrey is a "gots to go" situation, it won't totally remove the bitterness of Robb's death, but it will help). 

Once again, a Stark's pet wolf shares a fate with its owner (which makes me wonder where Ghost is)

Is someone going to write the song "The Snows of Winterfell"?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Curious what happens Edmure and his "bride".


Was that really even one of Frey's daughters?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

tiassa said:


> If the Red Queen's magic had a hand in Robb's doom, does that mean that Greyjoy Sr, and Joffrey will meet their end next week? (Greyjoy Sr -- yeah he might as well die, Joffrrey is a "gots to go" situation, it won't totally remove the bitterness of Robb's death, but it will help).


I'm hoping Joffrey suffers some humiliation of some sort, but gets to continue living for a bit longer. He's a character that I love to hate.

I'll be surprised is Greyjoy Sr is killed. He's been absent the season, bringing him back for an episode only to kill him would have to be done carefully not to feel like his treatment was rushed. I suppose they could toss his head into Theon's room as yet another means of torture. (As an aside, it really feels like they stuffed 15 episodes of material into 10 episodes this season. The episodes keep rapidly flipping between characters to jam in way too much breadth per episode without enough depth)

The Daenerys storyline confused me this episode. Our three amigos go into the enemy city to stealthily kill the guards open the city gate from the inside. Fabio kills 3 guards according to plan as expected. Then a dozen guards rush into the scene and are battled by Fabio, Grey Worm, and Jorah. A bit of a stretch of credibility, but our heroes defeat the many guards. Then what seems like 50 guards rush into the scene and I figure all is lost. They showed so many guards to convince us that Jorah, Fabio, and Grey Worm could not possibly win.

Later in the episode, the three return to Daenerys victorious. I couldn't clearly understand the audio, so I don't know the explanation. Fabio was carrying a cloth... a flag of surrender maybe? Why? Like everything else this season (well, except Theon's torture scenes), the Yunkai plot felt rushed.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> Later in the episode, the three return to Daenerys victorious. I couldn't clearly understand the audio, so I don't know the explanation. Fabio was carrying a cloth... a flag of surrender maybe? Why?


It was a little unclear to me as well, but apparently the slave guards were persuaded to lay down their arms, and without the slave guards, the city fell.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Yes. They were persuaded to join Danny's army for their freedom.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

I guess having an army composed of slaves is a really bad idea, particularly when fighting an army composed of freed slaves.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

The cloth was the city banner; he handed it over to show they had taken the city.

Loved Danny: "yeah, great, got the city, nice... ummmm... where's Daario...? No reason. Just askin'..." She all but swooned when he showed up. Jorah's like "what am I, chopped liver?"

Interesting how they made such a big deal of the sharing bread and salt ceremony when they get to the Frey's. Apparently killing your guests after that is a great big no-no. I guess when you're a Lanister, or a friend of a Lanister, rules just don't apply to you.

I was a little bummed that after all that Robb's wolf has done, the director didn't let him out to sow a little havoc before he was killed. Crossbowed while stuck in an outhouse is an ignoble death for a wolf.

I guess the Red Wedding is going to cause everyone to forget Jon Snow throwing his first love under the proverbial bus and riding off, presumably to Castle Black to warn everyone. That's gotta hurt: you do know something about breaking a girl's heart, Jon Snow.

I was happy to not see any more Theon. Hopefully we're done with him for a while.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

madscientist said:


> I was a little bummed that after all that Robb's wolf has done, the director didn't let him out to sow a little havoc before he was killed. Crossbowed while stuck in an outhouse is an ignoble death for a wolf.


The death of the wolf closely paralleled the death of Robb himself. It was actually a fitting symmetry.

I do have to admit though, I was cheering for that wolf to somehow get loose and save Robb.



madscientist said:


> I was happy to not see any more Theon. Hopefully we're done with him for a while.


After spending so much time enduring the Theon scenes, I want an explanation for it. I'll be irked if we don't get one during the season finale.



madscientist said:


> I guess the Red Wedding is going to cause everyone to forget Jon Snow throwing his first love under the proverbial bus and riding off, presumably to Castle Black to warn everyone.


Since killing half-hand, the Jon Snow story has been pretty uneventful for me. He's just a sort of a tag-a-long for the wildlings. He went from one of my favorite characters in the first two seasons to one of my least favorite characters in this season.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Saw this on Twitter:


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## Lars_J (Feb 1, 2005)

There's an interview with the GRRM (novels writer) where he discusses writing this plot twist: http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/02/g...orge-r-r-martin-why-he-wrote-the-red-wedding/

About writing the scene in the books (very close to what was shown):


> _"That was the hardest scene I've ever had to write. It's two-thirds of the way through the book, but I skipped over it when I came to it. So the entire book was done and there was still that one chapter left. Then I wrote it. It was like murdering two of your children. I try to make the readers feel they've lived the events of the book. Just as you grieve if a friend is killed, you should grieve if a fictional character is killed. You should care. If somebody dies and you just go get more popcorn, it's a superficial experience isn't it?"_


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## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

Seemed like a filler episode. 

Strange that such a memorable episode had no Lannisters.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

ugh...looks like Arya is going to have to add to her list..


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Ment said:


> ugh...looks like Arya is going to have to add to her list..


I was thinking the Hound really does become her (adoptive) father.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Lars_J said:


> This is an old favorite as well...
> 
> As for some more serious talk, there's an interview with the GRRM (novels writer) where he discusses writing this plot twist: http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/02/g...orge-r-r-martin-why-he-wrote-the-red-wedding/
> 
> About writing the scene in the books (very close to what was shown):


Hey man, do yourself a favor. Get rid of the image. People have been reported lately for images with curse words in them and they have been getting infractions. Just looking out for you.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

madscientist said:


> That's gotta hurt: you do know something about breaking a girl's heart, Jon Snow.


And she knows something about shooting an innocent old guy in the heart with an arrow. Good thing she did not shoot Robb as he rode away.


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## trnsfrguy (Apr 28, 2005)

wow, just wow !


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Darn it, I was all ready to post a "who's going to die?" topic in last week's thread, then got sidetracked and never got around to it.

I was going with Robb. I could have proven my genius!  my theory was that there is no way the season would end without a resolution to the war. The only way the war could be resolved quickly is with Robb's death.

I thought the wedding part was super funny. From Edmure's happiness at how pretty his bride is to Frey's smirk to Robb "yep, you could have had that piece of a$$"...it was awesome.

Question: I thought Bran was going north of the wall because he wanted to find Jon Snow. Why is he still going there now?

Prediction: Arya will now seek out Jalen Dahakar (I hope I got this right, the super assassin) and will spend the next few years learning that trade.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Question: I thought Bran was going north of the wall because he wanted to find Jon Snow. Why is he still going there now?


Jojen has Bran convinced he has to "find the three eyed raven" north of the wall. Bran is currently the rightful ruler of Winterfell and the North, but he is going on this vision quest instead. Let's hope it's important.



Anubys said:


> Prediction: Arya will now seek out Jalen Dahakar (I hope I got this right, the super assassin) and will spend the next few years learning that trade.


Jaqen h'ghar is who you're talking about. Don't worry, had to go to Google to be sure.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> Jojen has Bran convinced he has to "find the three eyed raven" north of the wall. Bran is currently the rightful ruler of Winterfell and the North, but he is going on this vision quest instead. Let's hope it's important.
> 
> Jaqen h'ghar is who you're talking about. Don't worry, had to go to Google to be sure.


I assume Tyrion will rule Winterfell in Sansa's name since Bran and Rikon are presumed dead and Rikon will continue to hide. That should be very interesting.

Thanks for the name correction, I was close! 

I don't know if the Onion knight will be convinced that Robb's death had anything to do with magic. Now that the Lannisters have total control, Grejoy doesn't have a chance. His death will also not convince anyone that magic is involved.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Holy bleep! I'd read rumblings about something coming up at a wedding,but managed to avoid spoilers beyond that. Yikes!


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

I never trusted that Frey guy starting with when he was janitor at Hogwarts! 

I somehow thought Rob would get killed but not his wife or mother. Oh well I guess I can now wish for Danny to send a dragon to burn off Tywin's face.


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## lambertman (Dec 21, 2002)

I just got to this point in the books in the middle of last week. I read on my lunch hour and I seriously thought I was gonna have to take the rest of the day off. I haven't read further yet.

Book talk:


Spoiler



Part of that was due to me also thinking Arya was killed, though.



Pretty darn devastating on the screen, too.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

How many of us that watched this unspoiled (unsullied?  ) had your mouth literally gaped open in shock? I was the definition of someone having to pick their jaw up off the floor!


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

This series is very draining to watch. Nothing good happens to anyone, ever.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

zordude said:


> This series is very draining to watch. Nothing good happens to anyone, ever.


Robb was very happily married for about two seconds. Does that count?


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## trnsfrguy (Apr 28, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> How many of us that watched this unspoiled (unsullied?  ) had your mouth literally gaped open in shock? I was the definition of someone having to pick their jaw up off the floor!


me !


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

So was the wedding massacre all Frey's idea? Or Lannisters'? Both? With a bit of red fire curse mixed in?


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Just saw this RedWeddingTears twitter feed.
I can't promise there won't be any spoilers ...


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

zordude said:


> This series is very draining to watch. Nothing good happens to anyone, ever.


You know it reminds me of what GRRM said once...he was so burnt out on television writing that he wanted to write something no one would ever think about putting in TV. Well they have and this is what we get for that.


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

So why aren't these books called "Watch horrible things happen to characters you care about."


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> So was the wedding massacre all Frey's idea? Or Lannisters'? Both? With a bit of red fire curse mixed in?


With the participation of Roose Bolton I assume it was Tywin's idea.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> So was the wedding massacre all Frey's idea? Or Lannisters'? Both? With a bit of red fire curse mixed in?


I think it was mostly Bolton's doing.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm surprised this was the first lightning storm they had with Hodor (Hodor!). As NOT a book reader, I was annoyed with this purely for TV bad timing. I assume the book is better written, right?

One good thing about this red wedding is that I don't have to suffer Michelle Fairley (Cat)'s bad acting anymore. I may be in the minority, but I find her acting terrible and she ruined my enjoyment of every scene she was in.

Lots of loose ends to tie up.

Anyone know what happened to photoshopgirl?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DUDE_NJX said:


> So was the wedding massacre all Frey's idea? Or Lannisters'? Both? With a bit of red fire curse mixed in?


I am certain someone will come behind and correct me on the details, but a deal was struck between Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton, and Walder Frey earlier this season.

Take note of Tywin writing letters to persons unknown in earlier episodes, the fact that Roose Bolton let Jaime Lannister go (an act of treason) after Bolton's men captured him from escape. And not just let him go, but gave him a frickin escort back to King's Landing.

In the books (the books!) the overall betrayal was agreed beforehand by the big three, but the details were actually worked out by Walder's sons on how the death scene would go down.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I'm surprised this was the first lightning storm they had with Hodor (Hodor!). As NOT a book reader, I was annoyed with this purely for TV bad timing. I assume the book is better written, right?


Are you asking about the timing of John Snow and crew arriving at the location of Bran and team just as the storm hits? If so, this was not something cooked up for the show. It plays pretty closely to what happens in the books.



Anubys said:


> Anyone know what happened to photoshopgirl?


I think she went to some convention a few weeks ago and has yet to catch up on the show. She has been absent from these threads for a while. I know because we have a serious lack of GIF's (JIF's) in these threads.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> One good thing about this red wedding is that I don't have to suffer Michelle Fairley (Cat)'s bad acting anymore. I may be in the minority, but I find her acting terrible and she ruined my enjoyment of every scene she was in.


I haven't really given much thought to her acting, good or bad, until last night. You do have to admit that she dies well.  I thought she did a fabulous job with that entire scene. I completely believed her.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

mostman said:


> OK non book readers - help out with a discussion that those of us who have read the books have been talking about ALL season. When Bolton does the deed on Robb, did you feel betrayed and outraged? Or was it more like, "Oh yeah - that guy...well, that sucks for Robb..." See, in the books, Bolton is a MUCH more developed and important character. In addition, Robb himself is more fleshed out. So when the Red Wedding (as this will be called) happens, its just absolutely gut wrenching. My first copy of the third book met its death in a swimming pool. My wife was seated behind me reading it when I saw the book fly over my head and land in the pool. "Red Wedding, huh?" I said to her. Luckily, there was a nearby book seller. It has been an ongoing discussion if the events would register the same for TV viewers as they did for those of us who read the books.
> 
> Fun fact - as many of you know, these books are written in third person POV. The interesting thing is the POV alters between chapters, hopping from one main (or sometimes minor) character to another, sometimes not returning for hundreds of pages. The Red Wedding scene was told from Catelyn's POV. You get her POV as she hears the Rains of Castamere start and she realizes the gig is up. Her POV as Robb is run through. And her point of view as, obviously, she is killed. Just superb writing on Martin's part - probably one of the best chapters of the entire series.


Well, to answer honestly, I don't even know who the Bolton character is or was to Robb. From this thread I understand that he is the guy who stabbed Robb to finish him off and that he was a traitor. It is hard to latch on to some of the secondary characters when I have never read the books. It all goes by so fast. Another example of lost detail is how someone mentioned the 'salt and bread' ceremony. I saw it being passed and thought the white stuff looked like salt or fish eggs but thought the bread was chicken or something. I also thought it was just a snack. It being a ceremony was lost on me.

Funny about your wife tossing the book in the pool. Good thing you weren't reading on a Kindle! I think I will pick up the book at the library and just read the wedding chapter.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> Are you asking about the timing of John Snow and crew arriving at the location of Bran and team just as the storm hits? If so, this was not something cooked up for the show. It plays pretty closely to what happens in the books.


Well, it's just that everyone was surprised that Hodor (Hodor!) freaked out. It seemed like something they should have known and fretted about (that he is afraid of thunder).



Shaunnick said:


> I think she went to some convention a few weeks ago and has yet to catch up on the show. She has been absent from these threads for a while. I know because we have a serious lack of GIF's (JIF's) in these threads.


Well, I wish she would catch up already, these threads are not the same without her!


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Whoever picks out the music to play (or not play) during the credits is a genius. The silence during last night's credits spoke louder than any music that could have been played and thinking back to some of the other choices made earlier in the season (the episode where Jaime loses his hand come to mind) are just as well done.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> I think it was mostly Bolton's doing.


I agree that it was a little of both. After all he doesn't want to be blamed for Jaimie's maiming. And his participation will be forgiven by Tywin when Jaimie arrives.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Remind me to never go to a wedding that Frey is hosting...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> I agree that it was a little of both. After all he doesn't want to be blamed for Jaimie's maiming. And his participation will be forgiven by Tywin when Jaimie arrives.


If you put "Tywin" and "forgiving" in the same sentence (without "not" between them), you just have not been paying attention! 

As far as I'm concerned, Tywin was the puppet master. He used Bolton's greed and Frey's anger to his advantage. Just 2 more pawns on his gameboard.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Tracy said:


> Well, to answer honestly, I don't even know who the Bolton character is or was to Robb. From this thread I understand that he is the guy who stabbed Robb to finish him off and that he was a traitor.


Yeah - thats too bad. I don't really blame the show runners, but this event is pretty much central to the upcoming story (obviously). They wasted a lot of time on things like Theon's torture and prostitution in King's Landing when they could have been doing a better job fleshing out both Bolton and Robb. In the books, Bolton commands basically half of Robb's army and is central to his command and control, providing advice and strategy to him along the way. There are some key battles Bolton is involved in which were left out of the show.

With all that said - they did the wedding very well. A terrific adaptation. They managed, for me at least, to create the same emotions the book did when I read it. The wife being at the wedding and pregnant is a departure from the books - but one which I ended up liking quite a bit.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Anubys said:


> If you put "Tywin" and "forgiving" in the same sentence (without "not" between them), you just have not been paying attention!
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, Tywin was the puppet master. He used Bolton's greed and Frey's anger to his advantage. Just 2 more pawns on his gameboard.


Maybe I should have put forgiven in quotes.

But you're right that he used them both. I also feel Bolton did it out of fear as well.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I was paying closer attention to the Bolton character mostly because of these threads.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Robb was very happily married for about two seconds. Does that count?


Not really, because it was still frustrating because he was being colossally stupid.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

zordude said:


> Not really, because it was still frustrating because he was being colossally stupid.


Well - lets remember - he is supposed to be about 17. So, we shouldn't be surprised that he thinks with the wrong head


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

zordude said:


> This series is very draining to watch. Nothing good happens to anyone, ever.


Podrick.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Having vaguely remembered this was going to happen, I've been noticing all season that they did a lot of foreshadowing to this. Conversations here and there about Frey and Bolton and what not. Was that the case in the books as well?

I kind of wish I hadn't known this was coming. I remember how completely devastated and shocked I was when Ned Stark was killed. This time I mostly had a sneaky grin on my face and kept looking over to the friends with whom I was watching. One friend has a history of yelling at me when bad things happen in this show, even if I warn them (which she prefers me to do). When I saw the twins in the opening, I made sure to vaguely note that something interesting was going to happen this episode.

Have they made much mention of Frey's sons? It almost seems like they are intentionally paralleling him to Craster. I vaguely remember some mention of them in the first season but this episode made it seem much more Craster-y.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Two of his sons were seen a few episodes ago negotiating the wedding of Edmure with Robb and team. And last night's episode one of those same sons went and closed the doors with the ominous thud before the music started.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Prediction
End of the series all are dead except Hodor.
Hodor takes the throne
sits down says
"Hodor" and dies.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Gunnyman said:


> Prediction
> End of the series all are dead except Hodor.
> Hodor takes the throne
> sits down says
> "Hodor" and dies.


By dragonfire. With a final scene like the T-rex roaring / banner falling scene from Jurassic Park.


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

Gunnyman said:


> Prediction
> End of the series all are dead except Hodor.
> Hodor takes the throne
> sits down says
> "Hodor" and dies.


Hodor, stop Hodoring!"


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

I thought it was funny when the father was introducing all his daughters and granddaughters and introduced the twins as "Sarah" and "Sorah" and then couldn't remember the last girl's name--Mary.

I, too, thought the Dany scene was confusing. I thought the three guys would go in and then open the front doors and Dany would be a part of the army flowing in an taking the city. They left us with the three guys seemingly trapped, so when they appeared in Dany's tent, it was very confusing at first. I think that was an example of the show skipping a giant battle scene to save some money, like when Tyrian got knocked out before another big battle.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

gossamer88 said:


> I was thinking the Hound really does become her (adoptive) father.


I don't think she is going to get over the 'promise to stab you in the eye thru the back of your skull' stage..  Wonder where Hound takes her next. Not many people that are going to pay well for an orphan except Joffrey..


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Gunnyman said:


> Prediction
> End of the series all are dead except Hodor.
> Hodor takes the throne
> sits down says
> "Hodor" and dies.


That's certainly how Tarantino would play it.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Ment said:


> I don't think she is going to get over the 'promise to stab you in the eye thru the back of your skull' stage..  Wonder where Hound takes her next. Not many people that are going to pay well for an orphan except Joffrey..


He'll probably just rape her and kill her next episode - this is Game of Thrones after all.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Ment said:


> I don't think she is going to get over the 'promise to stab you in the eye thru the back of your skull' stage..  Wonder where Hound takes her next. Not many people that are going to pay well for an orphan except Joffrey..


I loved the Hound's reaction to that comment. He had an "Oh Crap, I think she means it!" look about him.

Anyone else notice that the open credits did not have a lot of the actors that normally are in the credits, regardless if they are in the episode or not. I had to rewind because Peter Dinklage has been the first credited star for past two seasons, taking Sean Bean's place. The first credit this week was Emilia Clarke (sp?). There were other missing including Lena Headly and Sansa (can't remember the actresses name right now.)


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Ment said:


> I don't think she is going to get over the 'promise to stab you in the eye thru the back of your skull' stage..  Wonder where Hound takes her next. Not many people that are going to pay well for an orphan except Joffrey..


I want to think that deep down the Hound is a bit of a softy and is going to try to protect her in his own strange way, but seeing what GRRM did with that wedding scene, I've lost hope that there is anything good that is ever going to happen.  He's just as likely to cut her throat.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

mostman said:


> The wife being at the wedding and pregnant is a departure from the books - but one which I ended up liking quite a bit.


I guess we're not gonna see Oona's tushie any more. Sigh.

Since she's dead in TV GoT, I'm just wondering if she plays any role at all in Book GoT going forward (please without any spoilers of any other events)?


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Did anyone think Talisa was going to disappear below a trap door when she was asked by Frey to step forward?


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Did anyone think Talisa was going to disappear below a trap door when she was asked by Frey to step forward?


No - I thought ol' Walder was just going to have her approach closer and closer until he could easily get up and slit her throat with a hidden knife before Robb could do anything (and have his sons protect him from Robb's wrath).


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> I loved the Hound's reaction to that comment. He had an "Oh Crap, I think she means it!" look about him.
> 
> Anyone else notice that the open credits did not have a lot of the actors that normally are in the credits, regardless if they are in the episode or not. I had to rewind because Peter Dinklage has been the first credited star for past two seasons, taking Sean Bean's place. The first credit this week was Emilia Clarke (sp?). There were other missing including Lena Headly and Sansa (can't remember the actresses name right now.)


That is how they do the credits. They change each week depending on who will be in the actual episode.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> That is how they do the credits. They change each week depending on who will be in the actual episode.


I have to check that. I don't think I ever notice them changing the cast list. I know they change the fly over to match the locations in the episode (plus the major locations, such as Kings Landing and Winterfell.)


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Tracy said:


> They left us with the three guys seemingly trapped, so when they appeared in Dany's tent, it was very confusing at first. I think that was an example of the show skipping a giant battle scene to save some money, like when Tyrian got knocked out before another big battle.


I'm not clear either but I'm not sure there was another battle to show.

I took that sequence to mean that all those guys that rushed in were part of the slave army, which decided to lay down their arms and join them for freedom.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Jstkiddn said:


> I want to think that deep down the Hound is a bit of a softy and is going to try to protect her in his own strange way, but seeing what GRRM did with that wedding scene, I've lost hope that there is anything good that is ever going to happen.  He's just as likely to cut her throat.


I don't think he will kill her. The Hound thinks of her as a lost kitten that is apt to scratch sometimes and he's looking for the reward. This would be a good time for a Braavosi to show up so she can show the coin say the words "Valar Morghulis"



DUDE_NJX said:


> Did anyone think Talisa was going to disappear below a trap door when she was asked by Frey to step forward?


Thought Frey was going to further humiliate her by asking her to strip see for what Rob broke his oath.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

tiassa said:


> Once again, a Stark's pet wolf shares a fate with its owner (which makes me wonder where Ghost is)


The only other direwolf killed so far is Sansa's direwolf. Lady was killed back in S1. Because they couldn't find Nymeria, Arya's direwolf.

Robb/Grey Wind = killed 
Sansa/Lady = killed
Arya/Nymeria = missing since S1
Bran/Summer = we saw him last night
Rickon/Shaggy Dog = we saw him last night also
Jon/Ghost = haven't seen in a few episodes, but still around (AFAWK)



Bananfish said:


> I guess we're not gonna see Oona's tushie any more. Sigh.


Except for the wonders of TiVo.:up:


----------



## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

Quick question (I have not read the rest of the thread) 

Are there only 10 episodes for this season or more than that? I have been stockpiling this season and if next week is the last one then it means I can probably start watching them.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Maui said:


> Quick question (I have not read the rest of the thread)
> 
> Are there only 10 episodes for this season or more than that? I have been stockpiling this season and if next week is the last one then it means I can probably start watching them.


Next week is the Season Finale. Which is bad for me because I'll have a very long wait for my GoT fix after that.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Man, life sucks for the Stark family.

What kind of dope brings his wife to a wedding in the castle of the guy he broke an oath with to marry one of his daughters? I kinda expected something bad to happen to Robb's wife Talisa but I didn't expect 15 arrows and a stab in the gut for him.

I almost lol'd when Cately was blathering to Walder Frey about how she'd let everything slide if he allowed Robb to walk away. Like she was in any position to make demands. As if Frey would care about his wife.

Dany's three guys killed so many guards that I thought I was watching an episode of Spartacus.

Jon Snow is an idiot.

I kinda expect Arya and The Hound to get married at the end of this story.

Spoilers don't bother me but I knew something bad was going to happen to Robb because every other website I clicked on this morning had a reference to something shocking happening in last night's episode.


----------



## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

allan said:


> Next week is the Season Finale. Which is bad for me because I'll have a very long wait for my GoT fix after that.


Thanks. I may start watching season 3 tonight then.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I felt really bad for the non-book readers last night. The Red Wedding almost made me throw my Kindle out a window when I first read it.

To lighten the mood somewhat:


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Jon Snow is an idiot.


He's not an idiot.

He just knows nothing.

Jon Snow.


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Well, it's just that everyone was surprised that Hodor (Hodor!) freaked out. It seemed like something they should have known and fretted about (that he is afraid of thunder).


Isn't the fact that he's simple enough reason for him to be afraid of thunder?

The one thing I missed from this episode is I wish they would have fleshed out Bran's ability to enter the direwolves' minds better. I *think* it was fleshed out a bit more in the book, as a dream. It hasn't happened in a while for the viewer. Also, the interaction of him entering Hodor's mind was done very poorly IMHO. In the book it's much more interesting (I know, I know, enough about the book...)


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

I think you guys have covered the Red Wedding aspect, so I'll ask about something else.

Why did Jon Snow ride off like a bat out of hell after he clearly saw two Direwolves killing everyone else besides him? Surely he would have recognized his wolf's litter mates, right? Even discarding the wolves, the only Wildlings left were Ygritte and the giant sized ginger man, right? 

I kind of wish that I had watched this episode live instead of this afternoon, even though I tried to avoid spoilers I knew *something* big was supposed to happen and that lessened the impact for me.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

LlamaLarry said:


> I think you guys have covered the Red Wedding aspect, so I'll ask about something else.
> 
> Why did Jon Snow ride off like a bat out of hell after he clearly saw two Direwolves killing everyone else besides him? Surely he would have recognized his wolf's litter mates, right? Even discarding the wolves, the only Wildlings left were Ygritte and the giant sized ginger man, right?
> 
> I kind of wish that I had watched this episode live instead of this afternoon, even though I tried to avoid spoilers I knew *something* big was supposed to happen and that lessened the impact for me.


These crows aren't bright people. First the only weapon known to have a strong affect on the hypothermic old guys is left behind, and then this.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LlamaLarry said:


> Why did Jon Snow ride off like a bat out of hell after he clearly saw two Direwolves killing everyone else besides him? Surely he would have recognized his wolf's litter mates, right? Even discarding the wolves, the only Wildlings left were Ygritte and the giant sized ginger man, right?


If Tormund did not kill Jon, Ygritte surely might have. Good enough reason to flee.

Also, not all of the other wildings were dead. There were a lot of them that you could see earlier when they were running towards the horses. Jon and the wolves did not kill all of the rest (or if they did, that scene was shot very poorly since it only showed a few getting killed).

But the biggest reason is probably to warn Castle Black about the wildings plan to attack them. Remember, most of the defenders left Castle Black to go north of the wall, so it is vulnerable.


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## AlphaDelta (Jan 9, 2007)

Martin must really hate the Starks. Did a cub scout take his lunch money when he was kid?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

john4200 said:


> If Tormund did not kill Jon, Ygritte surely might have. Good enough reason to flee.


Ygritte missed on purpose. She just wanted to make it look like tried to kill him.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

LlamaLarry said:


> Why did Jon Snow ride off like a bat out of hell after he clearly saw two Direwolves killing everyone else besides him? Surely he would have recognized his wolf's litter mates, right? Even discarding the wolves, the only Wildlings left were Ygritte and the giant sized ginger man, right?


I wondered this too. It seemed like only one more tiny step to solve the wildling raid problem decisively. Maybe he was afraid of confronting Ygritte and was running away from her as much as he was running toward Castle Black.

I wonder what Brienne of Tarth is going to think when she hears that 1) Lady Catelyn is dead, and 2) It was due largely in part to the manipulations by the Lannisters. I expect her in King's Landing next week.

Maybe she will be the instrument of Melisandre's curse upon Joffrey?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> Ygritte missed on purpose. She just wanted to make it look like tried to kill him.


But did Jon know that? The look on his face struck me as "Holy S#[email protected], she just shot at me!" And being one who knows nothing Jon Snow, he didn't know that she missed on purpose.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

allan said:


> Next week is the Season Finale. Which is bad for me because I'll have a very long wait for my GoT fix after that.


Not just *you*. 

Actually I haven't watched it yet, but I knew it would be the Red Wedding by the episode title.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Mr. Soze said:


> Actually I haven't watched it yet, but I knew it would be the Red Wedding by the episode title.


What does the title mean?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But did Jon know that? The look on his face struck me as "Holy S#[email protected], she just shot at me!" And being one who knows nothing Jon Snow, he didn't know that she missed on purpose.


Did we watch different episodes? 

When did Ygritte shoot an arrow at Jon? She shot one at the old man who raised horses when he was getting away (and missed), then she shot the old man when Jon did not kill him. The only other time she had an arrow nocked, she was standing beside Jon and pointing the arrow at the warg who was threatening to kill Jon. When Jon fled on horseback, she just watched him go.


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rains_of_Castamere_(song)


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

smbaker said:


> What does the title mean?


It's a song about a family who defied the Lannisters and got wiped out. IIRC, Cersei spelled it all out last week, but it's a warning from the Lannisters not to eff with them, and a sort of anthem for them and their allies.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Mr. Soze said:


> It's a song about a family who defied the Lannisters and got wiped out. IIRC, Cersei spelled it all out last week, but it's a warning from the Lannisters not to eff with them, and a sort of anthem for them and their allies.


Ah, this I do remember from the previous episode.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Also, not all of the other wildings were dead. There were a lot of them that you could see earlier when they were running towards the horses. Jon and the wolves did not kill all of the rest (or if they did, that scene was shot very poorly since it only showed a few getting killed).


Right, the raiding party on the horse farm was indeed large, but it seemed much smaller to me since they had only 7 horses to use after the old man took one of the reported 8.

Orell, Ygritte, Tormund, Jon, 3 more GoT red shirts?


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

smbaker said:


> What does the title mean?


It's the title of the song that was playing before the massacre. It's a song about the story that Cerci told to Margery in a previous episode.


----------



## tater2 (Jun 6, 2001)

was anyone else shocked to see Rickon got more lines


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

The only problem I have with the song is that I don't recognize it. Lucky for me, I always watch this show with CC on, so the CC told me that Rains of Castamere was being played by the band. This made me instantly understand Cat's reaction and what was happening. I would not have noticed what the music meant had I not had CC on.


----------



## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Anubys said:


> The only problem I have with the song is that I don't recognize it. Lucky for me, I always watch this show with CC on, so the CC told me that Rains of Castamere was being played by the band. This made me instantly understand Cat's reaction and what was happening. I would not have noticed what the music meant had I not had CC on.


I don't think you had to rely on knowledge of the song, its melancholy and then you see Catelyns hand move to Boltons where you see him wearing chainmail, thats when you figured it went to pot..


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

How TV Game of Thrones fans felt last night vs. how book Game of Thrones fans felt last night


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anubys said:


> I assume the book is better written, right?


A true statement on its own. I have no idea why anyone who likes the show doesn't read the books. (Unless you just don't have time)

If you mean that they should have known that Hodor is irrationally afraid of storms and tried to deal with this problem sooner--yeah. I don't think it happened that way in the books--but it was a good time to introduce the idea of Bran warging into Hodor.



Tracy said:


> Another example of lost detail is how someone mentioned the 'salt and bread' ceremony.


That has been mentioned, but is easy to overlook. This is like the President inviting a head of state to the White House, and then just slitting his throat. You just don't do stuff like that because of the danger it puts your own family in when they are out and about.

I would be surprised if the Lannisters would do this at their own home, but they aren't above being in on it if the Frey's will do it. The Bolton's would probably just skin you and serve you up. 



LlamaLarry said:


> Why did Jon Snow ride off like a bat out of hell after he clearly saw two Direwolves killing everyone else besides him? Surely he would have recognized his wolf's litter mates, right? Even discarding the wolves, the only Wildlings left were Ygritte and the giant sized ginger man, right?


I think there were more Wildlings left than that, but also, ginger man has been really nice to him--he probably doesn't want to kill either him or Ygritte. The main way the Wildlings will take the wall from the south is with the element of surprise. If he can get back and warn them, it should be fine.

I'm sure he wondered about the wolves, but he really didn't have time to go searching around for Bran and Rickon, and maybe just put them in danger.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> That being said, she now wants Daenerys to bring her army over and whoop some Lannister butt.


That's an interesting byproduct of this massacre. Throughout the whole series up until this point, I've had no rooting interest in Dany and her quest because if she were successful, it would mean the Starks would lose. And we're obviously supposed to be rooting for the Starks up until now. So with most of the Starks now dead and the only remaining ones unfit for fighting/ruling, now I understand why people are so excited to see Dany building an army and getting prepared to come to Westeros.



mostman said:


> OK non book readers - help out with a discussion that those of us who have read the books have been talking about ALL season. When Bolton does the deed on Robb, did you feel betrayed and outraged? Or was it more like, "Oh yeah - that guy...well, that sucks for Robb..." See, in the books, Bolton is a MUCH more developed and important character. In addition, Robb himself is more fleshed out. So when the Red Wedding (as this will be called) happens, its just absolutely gut wrenching. My first copy of the third book met its death in a swimming pool. My wife was seated behind me reading it when I saw the book fly over my head and land in the pool. "Red Wedding, huh?" I said to her. Luckily, there was a nearby book seller. It has been an ongoing discussion if the events would register the same for TV viewers as they did for those of us who read the books.


I knew who Roose Bolton was. I remember Robb putting him in charge of holding Harrenhall earlier this season. I remember all the speculation about whether Theon's torturer was Bolton's bastard because of Theon being lashed to the big "X." I remember Bolton been involved in the capture and release of Jaime. So it was surprising when Bolton said, "The Lannister's send their regards" right before stabbing Robb. But since the character hadn't been truly fleshed out, it didn't feel like the complete betrayal that was probably the case for those that read the books.



mostman said:


> *Fun fact - as many of you know, these books are written in third person POV.* The interesting thing is the POV alters between chapters, hopping from one main (or sometimes minor) character to another, sometimes not returning for hundreds of pages. The Red Wedding scene was told from Catelyn's POV. You get her POV as she hears the Rains of Castamere start and she realizes the gig is up. Her POV as Robb is run through. And her point of view as, obviously, she is killed. Just superb writing on Martin's part - probably one of the best chapters of the entire series.


That's actually first person, not third.


----------



## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> I was thinking the Hound really does become her (adoptive) father.


Could someone please refresh my memory.

Why does Arya want the Hound dead?

Thanks,
Gerry


----------



## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Gerryex said:


> Could someone please refresh my memory.
> 
> Why does Arya want the Hound dead?
> 
> ...


He killed the butcher boy on Jofferey's behalf.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Gerryex said:


> Could someone please refresh my memory.
> 
> Why does Arya want the Hound dead?
> 
> ...


A large part of it is that the Hound killed her friend after the confrontation with Joffrey in season 1.


----------



## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> How many of us that watched this unspoiled (unsullied?  ) had your mouth literally gaped open in shock? I was the definition of someone having to pick their jaw up off the floor!


That's EXACTLY how I was watching this as I had no indication that anything like that was going to happen. The only thing that I thought was not right was that the old guy head of the house whose daughter Robb was supposed to marry was much more forgiving than I thought he would be. After all one of his daughters would have been a queen, where as with the current wedding one of his daughters would only be part of the Stark family. I thought it was kind of suspicious that he was forgave so easily. But again I NEVER thought it would end in such a blood bath!

GREAT SHOW!!!

Gerry


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

LlamaLarry said:


> http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rains_of_Castamere_(song)


FYP


----------



## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

I'm re-reading the books (but reading ADWD for the first time) and am nearly done with all five. I had been waiting for this episode ever since the series was first announced, wondering how (non book readers) would react, especially after the commotion caused in the first season when Ned lost his head.

I'm glad to see everyone reacted pretty much like I did when I first read that chapter. Shock, dismay, grief. Like some others, I literally threw the book across the floor. I've never done that before or since with any book. Not even close. Such is the power of great story telling by an author who is honest to his narrative. Shocking as it was, it all makes sense to the story line, leaving viewers and readers doing palm-to-face smacks thinking "why didn't I see that coming???".

As it stands, I think if I ever ran into the actor who played Walder Frey, I might have to smack him. 

The scene was well played out, however I was really bothered by minute (and seemingly unnecessary) deviations from the book (don't think these are spoilers, but want to be uber cautious):



Spoiler




Robb's wife (Jeyne in the book) wasn't even with him at the Twins
Neither was Roose Bolton. His complicity with the plot is revealed later
An unnamed soldier is the one who slays Robb, saying "-Jamie- Lannister sends his regards"
Catelyn doesn't slit Frey's wife, it's Frey's mentally challanged son. This makes Cate's actions seem even more pathetically desperate




For book readers only, a question. Major spoiler:



Spoiler



I wonder if the TV series will show zombie Catelyn...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> That's actually first person, not third.


No, it's third. From Catelyn's viewpoint, in the third person. Not "I felt my throat being slit," but "She felt her throat being slit."


----------



## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Anubys said:


> One good thing about this red wedding is that I don't have to suffer Michelle Fairley (Cat)'s bad acting anymore. I may be in the minority, but I find her acting terrible and she ruined my enjoyment of every scene she was in.


I was disappointed when Jennifer Ehle  was dropped from that role. Not sure why, but she is a great actress and a bit more attractive than Michelle Fairley. I loved her in "Contagion".

But now I realize Fairley is a better choice to play that role. Catelyn is a deeply tragic figure, and in the book (and series) is displayed as conflicted both in appearance and character. She's neither ugly nor beautiful, but has an enigmatic grace about her. She's deeply compassionate, but then can be cruel and manipulative (telling Jon Snow how she wished he'd never been born, etc). She's had a bad life - besides the horrors that the series depicts, earlier in life she was betrothed to Ned's brother, whom she loved dearly. Ned stepped in after Mad King Targaryen (Dany's daddy) killed his brother.

So you have to have sympathy for her, but not necessarily get attached to her and root for her. I'm not sure a better looking (or even more gifted) actress would have suited that role.


----------



## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

Ment said:


> He killed the butcher boy on Jofferey's behalf.





TAsunder said:


> A large part of it is that the Hound killed her friend after the confrontation with Joffrey in season 1.


Ah yes, now I remember! This is a GREAT SHOW but there's so much detail and so many plot lines its hard to remember everything!

Thanks!
Gerry


----------



## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Bananfish said:


> That's certainly how Tarantino would play it.


Nah, I think Tarantino would end it with Stannis, Joffrey, Robb, Dany and Balon all in the same room together, all wielding crossbows pointed at each other.


----------



## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, it's third. From Catelyn's viewpoint, in the third person. Not "I felt my throat being slit," but "She felt her throat being slit."


To be totally A/R about it, the books are told in third person limited, meaning it's entirely from the character's perspective. GRRM does a masterful job at giving all his POV characters a distinct personality and voice. We really get to know and understand these characters, to the point of even liking some that aren't very nice.

It's why I love the books. Unlike so many in the genre, the characters are unique and entertaining as opposed to minute variations of each other.


----------



## gschrock (Dec 28, 2001)

Ok, now has everyone learned the lesson that everybody's fair game yet? Or do we need a few more lessons on that?


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

LlamaLarry said:


> http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rains_of_Castamere_(song)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, it's third. From Catelyn's viewpoint, in the third person. Not "I felt my throat being slit," but "She felt her throat being slit."


Third person is pretty common. I don't know why that would be something worth mentioning.



dandrewk said:


> To be totally A/R about it, the books are told in third person limited, meaning it's entirely from the character's perspective. GRRM does a masterful job at giving all his POV characters a distinct personality and voice. We really get to know and understand these characters, to the point of even liking some that aren't very nice.
> 
> It's why I love the books. Unlike so many in the genre, the characters are unique and entertaining as opposed to minute variations of each other.


OK, I guess third person limited is a little more unique, in that the "narrator" only has the information that the POV character would have, rather than the typical omniscient narrator.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

audioscience said:


> YouTube Link: Rains of Castamere


Did that play with the end credits in another episode?


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> Did that play with the end credits in another episode?


Yes, the 'Bear and the Maiden Fair' episode.


----------



## Snappa77 (Feb 14, 2004)

Um......... what the f--k did I just watch?

And I thought that wedding reception where the entire floor collapsed was bad. 

Holy SugarHoneyIceTea!!!!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

dandrewk said:


> I was disappointed when Jennifer Ehle  was dropped from that role. Not sure why, but she is a great actress and a bit more attractive than Michelle Fairley. I loved her in "Contagion".
> 
> But now I realize Fairley is a better choice to play that role. Catelyn is a deeply tragic figure, and in the book (and series) is displayed as conflicted both in appearance and character. She's neither ugly nor beautiful, but has an enigmatic grace about her. She's deeply compassionate, but then can be cruel and manipulative (telling Jon Snow how she wished he'd never been born, etc). She's had a bad life - besides the horrors that the series depicts, earlier in life she was betrothed to Ned's brother, whom she loved dearly. Ned stepped in after Mad King Targaryen (Dany's daddy) killed his brother.
> 
> So you have to have sympathy for her, but not necessarily get attached to her and root for her. I'm not sure a better looking (or even more gifted) actress would have suited that role.


Physical beauty had nothing to do with my distaste for her acting. I just think she is terrible. She did not convey any of the emotions or conflicts that you describe. She just looked constipated.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Courtesy of George Takei:


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I think Roose Bolton


Spoiler



was at the red wedding--he sat next to Cat. But before the fun began he excused himself and left. When things started to get sketchy his walking out was one of her clues. So he didn't kill Rob. Or I could be remembering all wrong.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

astrohip said:


> The only other direwolf killed so far is Sansa's direwolf. Lady was killed back in S1. Because they couldn't find Nymeria, Arya's direwolf.
> 
> Robb/Grey Wind = killed
> Sansa/Lady = killed
> ...


I said "Shares a fate"
Sansa/Lady = killed = *Sansa is not a Stark (I know she is legally, but. . . )*
Arya/Nymeria = missing since S1 =* Wandering the backwoods of Westeros with no family around*
Bran/Summer = we saw him last night 
Rickon/Shaggy Dog = we saw him last night also* (both of them) Wandering with the other)*
Jon/Ghost = haven't seen in a few episodes, but still around *caught between the Night's watch and the wildlings*


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

tiassa said:


> *Sansa is not a Stark (I know she is legally, but. . . )*


I'm confused.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Legally isn't she a Lannister?


----------



## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

TAsunder said:


> Legally isn't she a Lannister?


Depends on if GOT marriage rules have to include consummation.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

If my understanding of Westerosian inheritance law is correct, Sansa is now the sole heir to Winterfell (Robb is dead; Bran, Arya, and Rickon are assumed dead; and Jon Snow has no claim to Winterfell both because he is a bastard and because he joined the Black Watch).

I believe that should make Sansa the new Lady of Winterfell, and Tyrion her Lord.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Ment said:


> Depends on if GOT marriage rules have to include consummation.


Speaking of that and changing the subject briefly....is the tradition they were referring to last night one where all the people that carried off the bride and groom were to witness the consummation?  And if so, then why didn't they do that with Sansa and Tyrion?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

getbak said:


> If my understanding of Westerosian inheritance law is correct, Sansa is now the sole heir to Winterfell (Robb is dead; Bran, Arya, and Rickon are assumed dead; and Jon Snow has no claim to Winterfell both because he is a bastard and because he joined the Black Watch).
> 
> I believe that should make Sansa the new Lady of Winterfell, and Tyrion her Lord.


Makes sense, that's why Tywin sent little finger to wed Cats sister.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Physical beauty had nothing to do with my distaste for her acting. I just think she is terrible. She did not convey any of the emotions or conflicts that you describe. She just looked constipated.


Yes, and that is -exactly- her personality in the book. She keeps her emotions in check. The reader and the viewer -both- feel like the should like her, but somehow don't. I think Fairley portrayed that dichotomy fairly well. FWIW, I won't miss her either, but then I felt the same about the character in the book.

It's all a matter of opinion, but sometimes a lack of good acting works better for a role. Think Arnold as the "Terminator". Imagine a good actor doing that role.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Caterminator!


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

dandrewk said:


> For book readers only, a question. Major spoiler:


Even spoilerized, this should not be in this thread.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> Speaking of that and changing the subject briefly....is the tradition they were referring to last night one where all the people that carried off the bride and groom were to witness the consummation?  And if so, then why didn't they do that with Sansa and Tyrion?


Joffrey was trying to do that.

Tyrion saw how scared Sansa was (plus, he hates the little twerp), so he threatened Joffrey if he tried to put Sansa through that. Then, to shift the embarrassment from Joffrey to himself, he began to act even more drunk than he actually was so that Tywin told them just to leave and told Joffrey to drop it. Joffrey is afraid of Tywin, so he dropped it.

I liked Cat's discussion about that tradition and saying that Ned forbid it from their wedding because he didn't think it would be appropriate to break someone's jaw on his wedding night.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I'm sorry you guys. I haven't read this thread. I'm not sure I can right now. Someone hold me. 

I'm still in shock. I didn't get to watch it last night and I just saw someone on twitter talking about "biggest shock since Ned" and I rushed home to watch before being spoiled.

Sadly I knew Robb died in something the books called red wedding. I had no idea when or how it happened but I knew enough. And still I didnt realize what was going on right away. I just kept having this feeling it might be this wedding but then it all went okay and I thought they wouldn't kill Robb this soon in the series........ until the minute Bolton wouldnt drink I got the sinking feeling in my stomach and I knew. 

Not gonna lie. My TV is still paused on the credits. I can't bring myself to stop it or continue to previews for next week. I was literally in shock. How can something shock me so badly that I KNEW was coming. dsjf;lkjasdf;kljasd;fj I can't even form words for this right now. 

Back later to read and give more coherent thoughts on the rest.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> And if so, then why didn't they do that with Sansa and Tyrion?


Because Tyrion threatened Joffrey when Joffrey tried to instigate it, and Tywin glossed things over by saying they could dispense with the bedding.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

As to Rains of Castamere, I think it's important to remember that it's more than just "The Lannister Song." It's the song that was commemorates the retribution the Lannisters took upon a Lord and his family when he questioned their authority over him. Robb, by declaring himself King in the North, has done the exact same thing. When Cat hears it, she knows that retribution is coming.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> dandrewk said:
> 
> 
> > For book readers only, a question. Major spoiler:
> ...


I agree. I know that's what spoiler tags are supposed to be for, but in the case of GoT, we have other threads specifically for book people, so there's no need for spoilers to be in this thread.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ment said:


> I don't think you had to rely on knowledge of the song, its melancholy and then you see Catelyns hand move to Boltons where you see him wearing chainmail, thats when you figured it went to pot..


Well, first of all, it wasn't that seemless. There was an entire scene (Bran's, I think) between the door/song scene and then the armor reveal scene. And as for it sounding melancholy, it did for the first few seconds, but then sounded a little happier to me.

But I too wish I had been able to recognize the song (or maybe I don't...might have made it slightly less shocking to figure it all out a few minutes early). In fact, I knew the title of the episode was referring to the song (and knew what the song was about), and I actually know what the song sounds like, and I didn't think that was the song. When Cat's attention was focused on the music, that was my first though...is that the song? Didn't sound like it to me and I quickly dismissed it. Afterward, I went back and watch that ending again, and still didn't think it sounded like the song. I'm gonna have to go back to previous episodes to compare. I know we heard it in S2E9. Are there any other times we've heard the song?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Speaking of that and changing the subject briefly....is the tradition they were referring to last night one where all the people that carried off the bride and groom were to witness the consummation?  And if so, then why didn't they do that with Sansa and Tyrion?





getbak said:


> Joffrey was trying to do that.
> 
> Tyrion saw how scared Sansa was (plus, he hates the little twerp), so he threatened Joffrey if he tried to put Sansa through that. Then, to shift the embarrassment from Joffrey to himself, he began to act even more drunk than he actually was so that Tywin told them just to leave and told Joffrey to drop it. Joffrey is afraid of Tywin, so he dropped it.
> 
> I liked Cat's discussion about that tradition and saying that Ned forbid it from their wedding because he didn't think it would be appropriate to break someone's jaw on his wedding night.


I didn't realize what it was. I thought it was just another thing like carrying the bride to the room, which Tyrion obviously couldn't do, and thus Joffrey was just trying to embarrass him more (like the cloaking part of the ceremony). Then there was the comment about Ned breaking a jaw, and suddenly I was confused. I still didn't realize it was just everyone watching until (I think it was) Robb spelled it out.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> As far as I'm concerned, Tywin was the puppet master. He used Bolton's greed and Frey's anger to his advantage. Just 2 more pawns on his gameboard.


Agreed. And once again, just another reason why I can't stay mad at him. Despite his callous treatment of his kids, Tywin is a brutal mastermind, and that's what makes him such an awesome character.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> I agree. I know that's what spoiler tags are supposed to be for, but in the case of GoT, we have other threads specifically for book people, so there's no need for spoilers to be in this thread.


But the other thread is rife with untagged book spoilers that this guy might not want to see.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

smbaker said:


> I guess that thing with stannis' witch and the leaches and kings blood really meant something. Who were the other two people she cursed?


I really don't think that had anything to do with it. This was clearly a plan set in motion by Tywin before Stannis/Mellisandra did their thing. And besides, what they were doing was really just supposed to be a small demonstration of her power. I assume a few drops of blood from a leach would be less powerful than making a baby.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Well, first of all, it wasn't that seemless. There was an entire scene (Bran's, I think) between the door/song scene and then the armor reveal scene. And as for it sounding melancholy, it did for the first few seconds, but then sounded a little happier to me.
> 
> But I too wish I had been able to recognize the song (or maybe I don't...might have made it slightly less shocking to figure it all out a few minutes early). In fact, I knew the title of the episode was referring to the song (and knew what the song was about), and I actually know what the song sounds like, and I didn't think that was the song. When Cat's attention was focused on the music, that was my first though...is that the song? Didn't sound like it to me and I quickly dismissed it. Afterward, I went back and watch that ending again, and still didn't think it sounded like the song. I'm gonna have to go back to previous episodes to compare. I know we heard it in S2E9. Are there any other times we've heard the song?


Several times. So much so that some people have complained that there are only 2 songs in all of Westeros, this one and the one about the bear and the maiden fair.

We've heard several different interpretations of it, including a punk rock version in the credits at one point.

I recognized it instantly, and the first time I heard it in the show, it sound dramatically differently than I had heard it in my head when reading it. It took me a while to hear it the way it is in the show.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But the other thread is rife with untagged book spoilers that this guy might not want to see.


Huh? dandrewk said he was posting a "major spoiler". If he knows a major spoiler, then I'm assuming he's a book reader, and was asking other book readers to discuss the book. Well, that's what the other thread was about. I suppose it's possible he's just a TV watcher but stumbled onto a major spoiler (in which case you'd be right), but that's not how I took it. Being that I didn't read his spoiler tags, I don't know if his question would make that clear one way or the other.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Reaction compilation. Here's the URL. I'm not inlining it because there are some 4 letter words in people's reactions.


```
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78juOpTM3tE
```


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

Jstkiddn said:


> Speaking of that and changing the subject briefly....is the tradition they were referring to last night one where all the people that carried off the bride and groom were to witness the consummation?  And if so, then why didn't they do that with Sansa and Tyrion?


They tried. Tyrion threatened to cut Joffrey penis off if the issue was forced. Tywin stepped in and said it was not necessary, so they didn't have the consumation ceremony

I have to agree about Michelle Fairley. I'm kind of glad Catelyn's dead so I don't have to watch her acting anymore. I never have felt any sympathy for her character, perhaps because of the way it was portrayed. The strange way she said Arya drove me to distraction.

I know I'm the odd duck here, but I felt almost nothing when the slaughter came at the wedding last night. It was not nearly as effectively set up as the death of Ned(who I adored), IMHO because the season was dragged out. Walder's insults to the queen could not have stood longterm, so I knew Robb was at risk. I knew when they started the song what was going to happen even though I haven't read the book. The only character I cared for was Robb and Catelyn's uncle(who I think got out because he went to the bathroom). I was totally bored with Oona Chaplin and Michelle Fairley, so I won't miss them at all.

I hope the story goes back to Arya and Tyrion. Those are my favorite characters and Dinklage is without peer in this cast in his acting abilities, although Charles Dance is a close 2nd.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

tater2 said:


> was anyone else shocked to see Rickon got more lines


Out with the old, in with the new - that's the way the Game of Thrones works.

Despite the slaughter of this episode, there are still plenty of Starks to go around (Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon, sort of Jon Snow (who knows nothing)), and I suspect we will still primarily be following their journey.

Frankly, the amount of focus on Arya and Bran throughout the series was a pretty big tip-off to me that the older Starks would not be the ones to see the Iron Throne. I can easily live without Robb or Momma Stark, but if they had done this to Arya, and to a lesser extent, Bran, wow, I'd really have an ulcer.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Huh? dandrewk said he was posting a "major spoiler".


I thought he was _asking for_ a major spoiler (I haven't read what he tagged). If not, than I obviously misunderstood.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

This is my favorite version of the song that I've found on youtube.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I thought he was _asking for_ a major spoiler (I haven't read what he tagged). If not, than I obviously misunderstood.


If he were just asking, there wouldn't be a need to spoilerize the question, only the book reader's responses.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Several times. So much so that some people have complained that there are only 2 songs in all of Westeros, this one and the one about the bear and the maiden fair.
> 
> We've heard several different interpretations of it, including a punk rock version in the credits at one point.
> 
> I recognized it instantly, and the first time I heard it in the show, it sound dramatically differently than I had heard it in my head when reading it. It took me a while to hear it the way it is in the show.


Hmm, despite thinking so, clearly I don't know the song at all then. Never noticed it all those times. I know it was sung by the guys before the Blackwater battle, and played again in those credit, but didn't know all the others. And yep, just went back and compared, and I should have caught it. Guess I just don't know it as well as I thought. And now I get the "2 songs" joke too.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

grey ghost said:


> I hope the story goes back to Arya and Tyrion. Those are my favorite characters and *Dinklage is without peer in this cast in his acting abilities*, although Charles Dance is a close 2nd.


I know, right? I mean, I really believe he's a dwarf.

I love the idea of Tyrion stabbing his Lannister family in the back (not literally, though that's not the worst idea either) by becoming a virtual Stark, ruling over the North with Sansa and brilliantly leading Arya or Bran to the Iron Throne over the Lannisters, where them and their offspring rule for generations and generations of the happiest and most just times of Westeros.

(Yeah, I know, it'll never happen with GRRM, but I can dream, can't I?)


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

This was an awesome episode, and (much like Ned), I'm glad it wasn't spoiled for me. I remember 1 or more earlier (season 1 or 2) threads where people had made reference to the Red Wedding. I was a bit ticked that I had been clued in that SOMETHING big was probably going to happen at a wedding, but at the time I assumed that was going to be the Joffrey/Sansa wedding, and then the term slipped my mind not long after. Glad it did.

Interesting how this show keeps itself fresh. I though it was all going to be about Ned, then I thought that was just a long setup for it to be all about Robb. Funny thing is, I remember last season thinking how the hell is Robb going to survive this all: wildlings, white walkers, Greyjoys, Stannis, Lannisters+Tyrells, and then Dany and the dragons. Hah...guess I should have gone with my gut on that one.

The thing is, now I can't really see it being all about any of the Starks. In fact, I can't see (for the moment) how any of the other Starks are going to be anything more than a footnote. I guess at this moment, the obvious conclusion is that Dany will be the eventual winner in the end (after the Lannisters are worn down by the other groups). Seems too obvious for this series, though, so I'm guessing the real truth has been right under our noses...this is a story about the Lannisters. In the end they will be victorious. I know a ton of people would HATE that outcome, which puts it right in line with the type of thing Martin would write, I suppose. I'd be fine with that, just as long as Joffrey isn't still a member of Team Lannister at the finish line.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> ....I knew who Roose Bolton was. I remember Robb putting him in charge of holding Harrenhall earlier this season. I remember all the speculation about whether Theon's torturer was Bolton's bastard because of Theon being lashed to the big "X." I remember Bolton been involved in the capture and release of Jaime. So it was surprising when Bolton said, "The Lannister's send their regards" right before stabbing Robb. But since the character hadn't been truly fleshed out, it didn't feel like the complete betrayal that was probably the case for those that read the books.


Robb's war map had a flayed man hanging upside down token.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I'm never shopping at Frey's again.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

netringer said:


> Robb's war map had a flayed man hanging upside down token.


Indeed. Bolton's coat of arms is a flayed man with outstretched arms. Their words are "Our Blades are Sharp."


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Huh? dandrewk said he was posting a "major spoiler". If he knows a major spoiler, then I'm assuming he's a book reader, and was asking other book readers to discuss the book. Well, that's what the other thread was about. I suppose it's possible he's just a TV watcher but stumbled onto a major spoiler (in which case you'd be right), but that's not how I took it. Being that I didn't read his spoiler tags, I don't know if his question would make that clear one way or the other.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> I thought he was _asking for_ a major spoiler (I haven't read what he tagged). If not, than I obviously misunderstood.


For the record, I have read the first three books, twice now, and am reading book 4 (AFWC) for the 2nd time in chronological chapter order with book 5 (ADWD) for the first time. So I do NOT want to read any unspoilerized threads. I glanced at one of those a year ago and was immediately sorry that I did.

Spoiler tags are here for a reason, and I even indicated -major- spoiler. If that's breaking some rule, it's not one I'm aware of. FWIW though, from reading my "major" spoiler, it's not a real major spoiler at all. More of a surprise, but certainly not a major plot point.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Speaking of that and changing the subject briefly....is the tradition they were referring to last night one where all the people that carried off the bride and groom were to witness the consummation?  And if so, then why didn't they do that with Sansa and Tyrion?


I don't think that they actually witness the consummation. I think they just stand around outside the closed door and "encourage" it, as loudly as possible. Also I believe they are very "helpful" in removing the clothes from both the bride and groom, on the way to the bridal suite.



JETarpon said:


> Even spoilerized, this should not be in this thread.





LordKronos said:


> I agree. I know that's what spoiler tags are supposed to be for, but in the case of GoT, we have other threads specifically for book people, so there's no need for spoilers to be in this thread.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> I thought he was _asking for_ a major spoiler (I haven't read what he tagged). If not, than I obviously misunderstood.





dandrewk said:


> For the record, I have read the first three books, twice now, and am reading book 4 (AFWC) for the 2nd time in chronological chapter order with book 5 (ADWD) for the first time. So I do NOT want to read any unspoilerized threads. I glanced at one of those a year ago and was immediately sorry that I did.


There is another thread, for season 3/book 3 discussion (that is, only for people who have read through book 3 as they watch season 3). Any discussion of later books is spoilerized. That's where your question should have been asked, although even there it should be spoilered as well because it's not a book 3 question. However, most of the people reading that thread have read all the books so you may get some discussion about it.



dandrewk said:


> Spoiler tags are here for a reason, and I even indicated -major- spoiler. If that's breaking some rule, it's not one I'm aware of. FWIW though, from reading my "major" spoiler, it's not a real major spoiler at all. More of a surprise, but certainly not a major plot point.


I disagree with that. I think your statement about major spoilers is right on. IMO that's one of the more bizarre and intriguing aspects of the later books and I know *I* would be very upset to be spoiled; I definitely recommend anyone who hasn't read at least the first 4 books not look at it; it's not something you'll find out in next week's episode (I wouldn't think). You used spoilers and mentioned a major spoiler, and that's good, but why even post it here? What's the point? People who haven't read the books can't answer it and so they only thing they can do is get spoiled, and people who HAVE read the books are not going to have an all-spoilered conversation about it in the middle of this episode thread (hopefully!)


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Earlier today I clicked on the 2nd spoiler without thinking because the 1st spoiler was about this thread's episode. Needless to say I am pissed I know something from the book that may or may not happen in a future episode.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

grey ghost said:


> ... I hope the story goes back to Arya and Tyrion. Those are my favorite characters and *Dinklage is without peer in this cast in his acting abilities*, although Charles Dance is a close 2nd.


As much as I like Dinklage, his inconsistent accent always distracts me.



gossamer88 said:


> Earlier today I clicked on the 2nd spoiler without thinking because the 1st spoiler was about this thread's episode. Needless to say I am pissed I know something from the book that may or may not happen in a future episode.


Same goes for me. Grrr!


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Considering the way that episode ended, there were a lot of "severance checks" handed out to the cast. <---(pun intended)


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

So for those who haven't read the books, were you sad after watching this episode? I really wasn't. None of those three characters have been very compelling for at least a full season, and the loss of them (and the end of the uprising in the North) means several boring storylines can be tied up and we can hopefully consolidate things a little more next season and not have so many different plots to service each week.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

Heh ...










As one who read the books I was anticipating and dreading this episode ... it was executed pretty well. The shock on Robb's face as Talisa was being stabbed, with him pretty much paralyzed at that moment, was chillingly well executed. As were the credits.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> So for those who haven't read the books, were you sad after watching this episode? I really wasn't. None of those three characters have been very compelling for at least a full season, and the loss of them (and the end of the uprising in the North) means several boring storylines can be tied up and we can hopefully consolidate things a little more next season and not have so many different plots to service each week.


That's how I feel. I wasn't sad at all. It was just part of the story. I didn't really care about the newly deceased this season. It's not like Arya, Danaerys or Tyrion were killed. As for the brutality of it, I watched Spartacus. This was nothing.

I'm not a book reader. They are probably better fleshed out in the books but I've had no "connection" with the Stark family other than Ned and Arya for the whole series. Bran and Rickon are minor characters that I can't see having any impact next season. Arya and Sansa either.

If Theon is still getting tortured in the season finale, I'm throwing my shoe at the tv.

I've seen a number of online postings where people express their shock. This is the only article I've stumbled upon where the author comes across as a cry baby:
http://www.mediaite.com/online/divorcing-hbo-sundays-brutal-game-of-thrones-goes-way-too-far/


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> A true statement on its own. I have no idea why anyone who likes the show doesn't read the books. (Unless you just don't have time)


I read the first one and was very disappointed with it.

I expected a long and comprehensive novel with imagery and backstory and meticulous character development- something like Tolkien or T.H. White. Serious books. Instead I got easy reading that read to me like a young adult novel- just very simply written and quite unsophisticated in the way it was constructed. It felt juvenile.
I doubt I will get agreement here because so many of you adore the books but my disappointment was extreme.

If you tell me the rest of the series is better written I will try another, but nothing about the first one left me eager to continue.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> A true statement on its own. I have no idea why anyone who likes the show doesn't read the books. (Unless you just don't have time)


Well, theres the time issue. I had planned on reading them as a way of dealing with GoT withdrawl, but based on this last episode, I've decided to wait until the series is done. I don't think I'd have enjoyed this episode as much had I read the books.

Could you imagine if they had aired this one memorial day weekend?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm an avid book reader but would never touch these books now until the show's run is complete. I've decided to watch it as a show. There are plenty of other books to read. Unlike most people here, I had no idea that anything major was coming (except that, like The Wire, the major killings happen in the second-to-last episode), so I enjoyed the shock completely.

I think the show has done a great job of making the Castamere song available to the viewer. They played it many many times leading up to this. So it's my own fault that I did recognize it.

Locking the doors is what immediately meant "massacre" to me. Being Egyptian, it's part of the folklore how Ali seized power more than 2 centuries ago by inviting the Mamlouks to the Citadel, locking the doors, and then massacring the whole lot of them. I'm sure there are many other instances of this happening, of course, but that's the one that leaps to my mind. From that point on, I was waiting for the heads to start rolling!


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Cearbhaill said:


> If you tell me the rest of the series is better written I will try another, but nothing about the first one left me eager to continue.


I find it uneven. He's no Robert Jordan, but he could really use a good editor. Also, I didn't like the geographic split of novels 4 & 5. There have been whole sections of these books I could have done without. On the whole, though, I'm invested in the series and I'm eagerly awaiting the next book, whenever it comes out!


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> So for those who haven't read the books, were you sad after watching this episode? I really wasn't. None of those three characters have been very compelling for at least a full season, and the loss of them (and the end of the uprising in the North) means several boring storylines can be tied up and we can hopefully consolidate things a little more next season and not have so many different plots to service each week.


I feel pretty much the same way. (haven't read the books)


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

generic book question:

Are the direwolves around more in the books? We seem to basically never see them, I thought they would be much more "present".


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> So for those who haven't read the books, were you sad after watching this episode? I really wasn't. None of those three characters have been very compelling for at least a full season, and the loss of them (and the end of the uprising in the North) means several boring storylines can be tied up and we can hopefully consolidate things a little more next season and not have so many different plots to service each week.


I was shocked, even uttered a NSFW word, but not really sad. I didn't have the same feelings for Robb that I did for Ned, and I didn't really like Cat anyway.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> A true statement on its own. I have no idea why anyone who likes the show doesn't read the books. (Unless you just don't have time)


I'm reading the books, but I'm trying to keep my book reading roughly in sync with the TV. Actually, right now I'm behind the TV, but I'll probably read up to Robb's demise and then put it on hold until the show returns.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I'm an avid book reader but would never touch these books now until the show's run is complete. I've decided to watch it as a show.


That's Mrs. Soze's view also. She just doesn't want to know. I can't stand NOT knowing, so I read all the books last summer.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Mr. Soze said:


> That's Mrs. Soze's view also. She just doesn't want to know. I can't stand NOT knowing, so I read all the books last summer.


You have married wisely. Mrs. Soze? not so much!


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

zordude said:


> generic book question:
> 
> Are the direwolves around more in the books? We seem to basically never see them, I thought they would be much more "present".


Yes, they are around more. Have to think it's a cost factor why they aren't in the show as much.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

billypritchard said:


> Yes, they are around more. Have to think it's a cost factor why they aren't in the show as much.


It was mentioned earlier by book readers (back in season 1) that they are supposed to be really huge (a small horse?). The showrunners did say the CGI cost was prohibitive and therefore scaled down their role. I guess they'd rather spend it on dragons instead!


----------



## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I'm an avid book reader but would never touch these books now until the show's run is complete.


I'm also an avid reader, but I have been reluctant to touch these books till all the *books* are complete. I see what my friends go through, waiting for a new book!

However, now that I'm going to be going through my own sort of GOT withdrawal, I may read them this summer.

I also may regret that decision very much, when I get to the end of DwD, and there's no more book.


----------



## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> The thing is, now I can't really see it being all about any of the Starks. In fact, I can't see (for the moment) how any of the other Starks are going to be anything more than a footnote. I guess at this moment, the obvious conclusion is that Dany will be the eventual winner in the end (after the Lannisters are worn down by the other groups). Seems too obvious for this series, though, so I'm guessing the real truth has been right under our noses...this is a story about the Lannisters. In the end they will be victorious. I know a ton of people would HATE that outcome, which puts it right in line with the type of thing Martin would write, I suppose. I'd be fine with that, just as long as Joffrey isn't still a member of Team Lannister at the finish line.


No real spoiler here, just one man's opinion, but I'll tag it anyway, just in case you don't want to know what my husband thinks the story is about.

Since the first book, my husband has been telling me that


Spoiler



Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen are the endgame. Jon is Ice and Daenerys is Fire, and this is their 'song'.


 He started telling me that long before I actually cared.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Anubys said:


> You have married wisely. Mrs. Soze? not so much!


I am reminded of that every day. 



Lori said:


> I'm also an avid reader, but I have been reluctant to touch these books till all the *books* are complete. I see what my friends go through, waiting for a new book!
> 
> However, now that I'm going to be going through my own sort of GOT withdrawal, I may read them this summer.
> 
> I also may regret that decision very much, when I get to the end of DwD, and there's no more book.


And that is exactly my regret too. Especially the way I read them, several hours a day almost daily, and those suckers are l-o-n-g. After DwD, I had serious withdrawal. Shake a leg, GRRM!


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I'm currently in the middle of reading book two and I had intended to go ahead and read them all (at least what is written) before next season, but after this season I think I may take the same route as Anubys and wait until the series is over.

Even though I knew there was something at some point called the 'red wedding', I had no idea what it was or why it was so named, therefore the events came as a complete shock to me, as did Jaime having his hand cut off earlier this season. I like the shock factor and if I read the books ahead of time, that will be ruined for me.

A while back I had skimmed around a little in the book thread and read something I really wish I hadn't read (was just a few words! I didn't really even mean to read them) because now I've ruined the shock factor for an upcoming event. I can't complain though, because I did it to myself. I knew there were spoilers in that thread and I was treading where I shouldn't have been. 

I'll go ahead and finish the second book that I'm currently reading and may go ahead and catch up to the show and read the third, but I don't think I care to go any further than that for a while.

I like being surprised, shocked and sitting with my mouth agape while the credits roll.

edit to add: I just did something I should have done a long time ago. I used the ignore thread feature for the book/spoiler thread.  Now I won't see it and I won't be tempted to click when it gets bumped. I have zero self control and every time I see someone has commented on that thread I so, so badly want to click.


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

TriBruin said:


> Anyone else notice that the open credits did not have a lot of the actors that normally are in the credits, regardless if they are in the episode or not. I had to rewind because Peter Dinklage has been the first credited star for past two seasons, taking Sean Bean's place. The first credit this week was Emilia Clarke (sp?). There were other missing including Lena Headly and Sansa (can't remember the actresses name right now.)


I knew going into this episode something big was happening. After missing Peter Dinklage's credit, I thought to myself, "They can't kill the most popular character, can they?"

They didn't, but it was still a shocked for me.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Lori said:


> Since the first book, my husband has been telling me that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


That's a fairly common opinion. Therefore it is clearly wrong.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

zordude said:


> generic book question:
> 
> Are the direwolves around more in the books? We seem to basically never see them, I thought they would be much more "present".


Not a whole lot, actually. A lot of little cameos, and the warg thing seems mostly as a way for characters to find things they wouldn't otherwise know.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Anubys said:


> It was mentioned earlier by book readers (back in season 1) that they are supposed to be really huge (a small horse?). The showrunners did say the CGI cost was prohibitive and therefore scaled down their role. I guess they'd rather spend it on dragons instead!


Well, just imagine how much dog food a horse-sized wolf would go through.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Lori said:


> Since the first book, my husband has been telling me that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I've always thought that


Spoiler



Fire is the magic represented by the dragons, and Ice is the magic represented by the Walkers et al., and the series will ultimately boil down to the conflict between them, with different people taking different sides. If Jon goes over to Ice, I hope he comes to his senses. Then again, you know what Jon Snow knows!


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> So for those who haven't read the books, were you sad after watching this episode?





allan said:


> I was shocked, even uttered a NSFW word, but not really sad. I didn't have the same feelings for Robb that I did for Ned, and I didn't really like Cat anyway.


 This. The finale of S1 was watched in near real time and completely unspoiled for me. I was freaking *stunned*, mouth agape, WTF?!?!?, stunned.

Robb, Cat and Robb's wife - not so much. Like I mentioned before this was probably because I knew people were going to get offed because of the song and all the Twitter/FB "I don't want to spoil it, but wow, what a crazy ending!!!!11!!!" type posts.

Of course, having had the S1 finale perhaps we've all been spoiled a bit by the book readers with the "Heh, heh, just wait...." and the memes about "main" GoT characters getting whacked.


Cearbhaill said:


> I read the first one and was very disappointed with it.


I am in the same boat. I read the book on my iPhone over the course of a summer, while sitting by a fountain during my lunch breaks. It made the time pass, but did not suck me into reading the rest of the series - that I have on my iPhone ready to go.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Lori said:


> Since the first book, my husband has been telling me that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Another theory that I've heard (spoilerized, but it is just idle speculation)



Spoiler



Jon Snow is not the son of Ned Stark and some random babe, bit is in fact the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. Which makes a Jon and Dany endgame all the more interesting,

The big problem with this theory is that there isn't anyone alive to prove/disprove/expand upon this, unless Targaryen's have the "Spot another Targaryen" magic ability.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

jehma said:


> He's no Robert Jordan...


That's one of the reasons many of us were instantly captivated by the series. Sure, "Wheel of Time" started brilliantly, but then it began to meander, and we had books where literally nothing happened for 600 pages (unless pulling on your braid and scowling counts as something happening), and then here comes "Song of Ice and Fire" and the story actually progressed! For someone who had recently waded through "A Path of Daggers", it was quite refreshing.

The third person limited view is interesting. We have only the knowledge the characters have, and even then, sometimes (often?) the characters knowledge is wrong, and we, the readers, get to form a fuller picture by comparing what we learn from one character to what a different character is told.

The TV show actually doesn't manage to get that across at all. The "Fog of War" is very real in the books. And the world is realistically brutal, not some beautiful fantasy realm where people act as idealized versions of themselves. The characters aren't just flawed, they have a completely different world view than we do, and no reason to believe that their world view isn't perfectly normal and correct.

The book is less about dragons and white walkers than it is about politics, and an awful lot is not spelled out, but left for the reader to infer from the actions of the participants. You get bits and pieces here and there.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LlamaLarry said:


> This. The finale of S1 was watched in near real time and completely unspoiled for me. I was freaking *stunned*, mouth agape, WTF?!?!?, stunned.
> 
> Robb, Cat and Robb's wife - not so much. Like I mentioned before this was probably because I knew people were going to get offed because of the song and all the Twitter/FB "I don't want to spoil it, but wow, what a crazy ending!!!!11!!!" type posts.
> 
> ...


When you read the first book, you think Ned Stark is the hero. Then he's killed off and you are left lost.

When you read the second book, it's almost a normal reaction to think that the story is now about the Stark family rising up to avenge Ned Stark and since Robb wins every battle, you get the sense that Robb is the hero. The Hero's Journey, a young mans father is killed and he goes off to have an adventure and grows up and saves the day. In a lesser fantasy this would certainly be the case, it's a story we all know. And then he's killed off and you are left wondering "who is this series about? Who am I supposed to root for?"

It's a very emotional moment in the novels. Can you imagine Harry Potter dying in book 2? It's up there with Gandalf dying in Moria. It's a definite "holy crap" moment.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

tiassa said:


> Another theory that I've heard (spoilerized, but it is just idle speculation)
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Howland Reed, the father of Meera and Jojen, was at the Tower of Joy when Lyanna died. So if there is anyone in Westoros who might know that answer, it would be him. Also I think GRRM has said that Jon Snow's mother would be revealed before the books were done.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Ereth said:


> It's up there with Gandalf dying in Moria. It's a definite "holy crap" moment.


Although in this instance, I think it's safe to say that Robb won't be coming back.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

So...I honestly wonder now what will happen to Joffrey. We know magic is real in that world and - while Robb's death had nothing to do with magic - we now know what happened to the first name uttered via the leech-spell!

Are we going to get Greyjoy's death, followed by a cliffhanger ending of Joffrey's death?

I expected the finale to be the tying off of loose ends and setting them up for next season: Jaime reaching King's landing, Tyrion & Sansa leaving for Winterfell, LittleFinger lording over his new place, ...etc.

But they can't just leave that leech-spell alone for next season, can they?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

While, the execution of what happened was "Holy Crap" worthy, I can't say I am totally shocked by it. First of all, you KNEW Walder Frey was uber angry about getting jilted with the wedding. You KNEW he just wasn't going to let it go easily. Second, you could tell by his comments to Robb's wife that he was going to do SOMETHING relating to her. At first when he asked her to step forward, I thought he was going to have her raped and thus ruined for Robb. Then I thought maybe he was just going to kill her, to shove it Robb's face. I was a bit shocked that he had both Caitlyn and Robb were killed (and the wolves too).

All I could think of was poor Arya, so close to reuniting with her family, and poof, gone!! She got to witness the beheading of her Dad and now the murder of her mom and brother (although, she was outside, so she didn't see it directly). I think the Starks are supposed to be Heros but not necessarily the ultimate winner. I will say, I think Arya is going to play a big role in things. I've felt that all along. She has the will of her dad, but also has developed street smarts and cunning.



The Starks are a symbol, that righteouness and honor are not a match in this "world" for money and power. They ar


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> The Starks are a symbol, that righteouness and honor are not a match in this "world" for money and power. They ar


Looks like the Lannisters got to him.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Or a penis leech.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

zordude said:


> Looks like the Lannisters got to him.


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

zordude said:


> Looks like the Lannisters got to him.


LOL, awesome. :up::up::up:


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> .... poor Arya...She got to witness the beheading of her Dad and now the murder of her mom and brother (although, she was outside, so she didn't see it directly).


When you stop and think about it, being in close proximity to Arya seems like pretty bad luck.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

I am really waiting for the Facebook parody for this week. I just checked and it hasn't been posted yet.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Ereth said:


> That's one of the reasons many of us were instantly captivated by the series. Sure, "Wheel of Time" started brilliantly, but then it began to meander, and we had books where literally nothing happened for 600 pages (unless pulling on your braid and scowling counts as something happening), and then here comes "Song of Ice and Fire" and the story actually progressed! For someone who had recently waded through "A Path of Daggers", it was quite refreshing.


Just to be clear - my comparison to Robert Jordan was a compliment to Martin. I was saying that Martin doesn't meander nearly as much. I agree with everything you wrote here. I just started the penultimate WOT book and it's such a pleasure to have the story actually move along.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> All I could think of was poor Arya, so close to reuniting with her family, and poof, gone!!


I felt so bad for Arya! You could see her face light up when she first approached the building because she knew she was about to finally see her mother and her long harrowing journey would be over....then bam!

Keep in mind this is a child not only witnessed the beheading of her father, but she's had nobody to comfort her or let her grieve normally. This poor girl needs a hug and a good cry! She needed her mother and now she's gone.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Anyone know what happened to photoshopgirl?





Shaunnick said:


> I think she went to some convention a few weeks ago and has yet to catch up on the show. She has been absent from these threads for a while. I know because we have a serious lack of GIF's (JIF's) in these threads.





Anubys said:


> Well, I wish she would catch up already, these threads are not the same without her!


You guys! I have warm fuzzies now. I had no idea my posts were even read or cared about most of the time! I am back and caught up now, not that it matters but I'll be on point for the finale!!!



LlamaLarry said:


> Why did Jon Snow ride off like a bat out of hell after he clearly saw two Direwolves killing everyone else besides him? Surely he would have recognized his wolf's litter mates, right? Even discarding the wolves, the only Wildlings left were Ygritte and the giant sized ginger man, right?


I was puzzled by this as well. Had it really been so long since he'd since their direwolves that he didn't recognize them?



john4200 said:


> But the biggest reason is probably to warn Castle Black about the wildings plan to attack them. Remember, most of the defenders left Castle Black to go north of the wall, so it is vulnerable.


This was my thought immediately. He's getting a head start on those left so he can warn Castle Black. I just thought he would grab Ygritte on his way out since it was clear she was defending him. But maybe her shooting the old guy gave him enough pause that he just didn't think before taking off.



john4200 said:


> When did Ygritte shoot an arrow at Jon? She shot one at the old man who raised horses when he was getting away (and missed), then she shot the old man when Jon did not kill him. The only other time she had an arrow nocked, she was standing beside Jon and pointing the arrow at the warg who was threatening to kill Jon. When Jon fled on horseback, she just watched him go.


Yes with this look on her face!


Spoiler















I know I might sound rude but I really don't mean to. I just find it really odd that so many people have so much trouble following the show and characters. The fact that I'm browsing the thread seeing that people didn't realize that Bolton was the one that stabbed Robb, I was thinking HUH?

So many thoughts. I'm still upset over Robb. And yes, as a non book reader that affected me to my core. Even though I KNEW Robb died in the books and of course the minute I realized _this_ was it, it was still shocking. Wow that entire thing was just so well done. Worst part of the entire thing for me was Grey Wind. I watched in shock at the killings inside but when I saw them marching out to him, I had to cover my eyes. I wish I had covered them longer because that moment of Arya watching him die under the door was just no. no no no no. I'm really angry about that!!!!

Also book comment that I read spoilered in case it's true


Spoiler



Someone said that in the book Bolton says "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" instead of just "THE Lannisters send their regards" and I'm curious if this is true why the change? They want Jaime to be sympathetic? Because had he said that I'd be right back to wanting Jaime's head too.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also book comment that I read spoilered in case it's true
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


In the book as on the show,


Spoiler



Jaime had nothing to do with it...they're just saying "This is payback not just for screwing over Frey, but for screwing over the Lannisters" (and Jaime is the Lannister Robb kept in a cage for several months). So the overall tone of the message is exactly the same, but the detail won't distract TV viewers into wondering how on Earth Jaime could have anything to do with this.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

zordude said:


> Looks like the Lannisters got to him.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


>


Your post seemed to cut off mid sentence. We all assumed it was the Lannisters or a penis leech. But now that you're back, how do we know it wasn't a white walker and now you are a zombie?


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Steveknj said:


>


Your post ended mid-word, hence the comments.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Steveknj said:


>


Your last post was cut off mid stream, as if Roose Bolton had just shivved you.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Steveknj said:


>


Your post was cut off mid-word, as if Arya said your name to Jaqen H'ghar.


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

stalemate said:


> I feel pretty much the same way. (haven't read the books)


It took a minute for it to all sink in... What really got me at the end was poor Arya standing outside, seeing/hearing the direwolf be killed, and then the silence. Powerful!! And, I thought this was the finale. Whew! Glad that we have one more week. 

I didn't recognize the song, and never remember to look at episode titles - but, I sure knew something was wrong when that guy closed the doors and the band started playing slow music. Then, Catelyn's face said it all. I think she's a good actress - she's sure fits Catelyn Stark, at least.

I told my friend that something was up - and thought they were going to set the whole place on fire. 
Then they showed Frey, still at the head of the table, and I relaxed and said "Whew!"
and then all the men came in and all heck broke loose - and my friend just started laughing. She was waiting for it the whole time. Thank goodness she didn't film me like all those people on YouTube. HA!



Lori said:


> I'm also an avid reader, but I have been reluctant to touch these books till all the *books* are complete. I see what my friends go through, waiting for a new book!
> 
> However, now that I'm going to be going through my own sort of GOT withdrawal, I may read them this summer.
> 
> I also may regret that decision very much, when I get to the end of DwD, and there's no more book.


I had that thought previously. I've watched everyone waiting and waiting...

Then talking with my friends last night about this episode, and about how Robb, Talisa?, and Catelyn didn't hit me all that hard, until the very end. They were surprised because they were so furious, or sad, and all so emotionally involved with Robb and everyone... that made me want to start reading the books again.



zordude said:


> Looks like the Lannisters got to him.


 That was perfect!! Hilarious!!


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

jehma said:


> Just to be clear - my comparison to Robert Jordan was a compliment to Martin. I was saying that Martin doesn't meander nearly as much. I agree with everything you wrote here. I just started the penultimate WOT book and it's such a pleasure to have the story actually move along.


Then I mistook your meaning entirely. My apologies.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> You guys! I have warm fuzzies now. I had no idea my posts were even read or cared about most of the time! I am back and caught up now, not that it matters but I'll be on point for the finale!!!


you misunderstand...we don't read or care about your posts! scrolling through your long posts - unread - gives us a sense of accomplishment


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> Then I mistook your meaning entirely. My apologies.


If it makes you feel better, I thought as you did (as to her meaning)!

so...anyone think that Joffrey is getting killed next week?


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> In the book as on the show,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I'm glad they chose to go that route, because I would have most certainly been confused.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Anubys said:


> If it makes you feel better, I thought as you did (as to her meaning)!
> 
> so...anyone think that Joffrey is getting killed next week?


I had that thought, but I can't believe we'd get that lucky. It would make a great finale, though.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Anubys said:


> If it makes you feel better, I thought as you did (as to her meaning)!
> 
> so...anyone think that Joffrey is getting killed next week?


Well, then it's obviously me  Sorry for not being clear.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> so...anyone think that Joffrey is getting killed next week?


So, if Joff is offed  then is the younger brother king?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> So, if Joff is offed  then is the younger brother king?


In theory, he would be next in line.

Although we have seen how well theory plays out in practice, so in practice, we'll just have to see.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I feel like Joffrey has so much more evil to do before he'll be ripe for killing. I've not read the books and I know nothing (just like Jon Snow), but I would find it very unfulfilling if Joffrey got offed so soon. In my mind, if the king gets killed, then we're right back to the end of S1/beginning of S2 where there's a bunch of people vying for the throne. I feel like that issue has finally been mostly settled, and it would be redundant to start it over again.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> So...I honestly wonder now what will happen to Joffrey. We know magic is real in that world and - while Robb's death had nothing to do with magic - we now know what happened to the first name uttered via the leech-spell!
> 
> Are we going to get Greyjoy's death, followed by a cliffhanger ending of Joffrey's death?
> 
> ...


Like you said, Robb had nothing to do with that magic. And I really doubt that tiny bit of blood from a leach could kill anyone. Otherwise, it's going to be a very short story for the Lannisters, as Gendry could be used to simply wipe Kings Landing clear of any Lannisters.


----------



## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

DevdogAZ said:


> I feel like Joffrey has so much more evil to do before he'll be ripe for killing. .


Well he has to hone his crossbow skills for exhibition shooting of prostitutes.

Get some Sansa.

Behead some commoners who jeered at him.

Off anyone else who is in line to the throne.

See if Margaery is really down for the sick puppy he is or just wants to be queen..probably involve more crossbow..


----------



## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Lori said:


> I'm also an avid reader, but I have been reluctant to touch these books till all the *books* are complete. I see what my friends go through, waiting for a new book!
> 
> However, now that I'm going to be going through my own sort of GOT withdrawal, I may read them this summer.
> 
> I also may regret that decision very much, when I get to the end of DwD, and there's no more book.


I hope you are patient, as GRRM has said he hopes the next book will be done in 2014 (!). And he missed his estimates for ADWD so often he stopped making them (!!). And there is at least one more book coming after the next one (!!!).

I think we need to lock him in a room to prevent his spending all his time going to fan boy conventions and giving interviews. I think I know someone who can get this done:


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

dandrewk said:


> I hope you are patient, as GRRM has said he hopes the next book will be done in 2014 (!). And he missed his estimates for ADWD so often he stopped making them (!!). And there is at least one more book coming after the next one (!!!).
> 
> I think we need to lock him in a room to prevent his spending all his time going to fan boy conventions and giving interviews. I think I know someone who can get this done:


I love it when GRRM is interviewed as having done anything other than writing (such as eating, watching TV) because then we get to joke that he should be writing instead of eating.


----------



## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

I want to see Joffrey's head on a spike.

That is all.


----------



## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Ereth said:


> That's one of the reasons many of us were instantly captivated by the series. Sure, "Wheel of Time" started brilliantly, but then it began to meander, and we had books where literally nothing happened for 600 pages (unless pulling on your braid and scowling counts as something happening), and then here comes "Song of Ice and Fire" and the story actually progressed! For someone who had recently waded through "A Path of Daggers", it was quite refreshing.
> 
> The third person limited view is interesting. We have only the knowledge the characters have, and even then, sometimes (often?) the characters knowledge is wrong, and we, the readers, get to form a fuller picture by comparing what we learn from one character to what a different character is told.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with all of this. I gave up on Jordan for those very reasons and then latched on to ASOIAF and LOVED it! Things happen, things I could never guess, and the many/varied POVs add so much depth and nuance to the stories. For non book readers, a lot of the fascinating political details and rich back story is missing. The chapter with Jon and Ygritte in the cave was one of the most beautifully romantic I've ever read.

Books 4 and 5 do meander a lot more than 1-3, but it still draws me in for the character development it involves. The chapters are like NBA games - the important stuff only happens in the last few minutes (pages)


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> None of those three characters have been very compelling for at least a full season, and the loss of them (and the end of the uprising in the North) means several boring storylines can be tied up and we can hopefully consolidate things a little more next season and not have so many different plots to service each week.


I'm a book reader, and while I wasn't that attached to Cat or Rob or his wife, I really wanted the Starks to get back together, find the boys, and go back to Winterfell and rebuild. I should have known that there are 5 long books, and that isn't all that exciting, but still... And Rob is the only candidate for King who is a decent guy. Oh well.



allan said:


> I'm reading the books, but I'm trying to keep my book reading roughly in sync with the TV. Actually, right now I'm behind the TV, but I'll probably read up to Robb's demise and then put it on hold until the show returns.


That was my plan after season 1, but not so good at the hold part.



Jstkiddn said:


> I'll go ahead and finish the second book that I'm currently reading and may go ahead and catch up to the show and read the third, but I don't think I care to go any further than that for a while.


Keep in mind that we are only part way through book 3 when this season ends. If you finish it you'll be spoiled big time next year.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I've always thought that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


From book 5


Spoiler



John may not have any choice on going over to ice, but wasn't cold hands an icy good guy?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> So for those who haven't read the books, were you sad after watching this episode? I really wasn't. None of those three characters have been very compelling for at least a full season, and the loss of them (and the end of the uprising in the North) means several boring storylines can be tied up and we can hopefully consolidate things a little more next season and not have so many different plots to service each week.


As has been pointed out, the devastating part is that since the beginning of the story we have been conditioned to believe that the Starks are going to be the heroes of this story. First we thought it was going to be Ned, and since he was killed, it was perfectly natural to assume that the story would revolve around his family's revenge. And then boom. Not anymore.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dandrewk said:


> I think we need to lock him in a room to prevent his spending all his time going to fan boy conventions and giving interviews.


George R.R. Martin is not your *****.



(I've always loved that post, regardless of how annoyed I get with GRRM.)


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Several times. So much so that some people have complained that there are only 2 songs in all of Westeros, this one and the one about the bear and the maiden fair.
> 
> *We've heard several different interpretations of it, including a punk rock version in the credits at one point.*
> 
> I recognized it instantly, and the first time I heard it in the show, it sound dramatically differently than I had heard it in my head when reading it. It took me a while to hear it the way it is in the show.


Unless I'm misremembering, the punk rock version that we heard in the credits was of "The Bear and The Maiden Fair" (heard during credits of S3E3). We haven't heard a punk version of "The Rains of Castamere".


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Cearbhaill said:


> I read the first one and was very disappointed with it.
> 
> I expected a long and comprehensive novel with imagery and backstory and meticulous character development- something like Tolkien or T.H. White. Serious books. Instead I got easy reading that read to me like a young adult novel- just very simply written and quite unsophisticated in the way it was constructed. It felt juvenile.
> I doubt I will get agreement here because so many of you adore the books but my disappointment was extreme.
> ...


Because of the 3rd person limited POV that the story is told through, by necessity some of the chapters are going to be fairly unsophisticated.

But I think you're dramatically underestimating how comprehensive the story is. The backstory alone of all of the major houses is remarkably dense, and the character development is terrific. But you won't necessarily get that over the course of one book.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> As has been pointed out, the devastating part is that since the beginning of the story we have been conditioned to believe that the Starks are going to be the heroes of this story. First we thought it was going to be Ned, and since he was killed, it was perfectly natural to assume that the story would revolve around his family's revenge. And then boom. Not anymore.


Oh, I totally get that. And had this happened toward the end of S2, I would have been totally floored. But it seems like this season they've really made Robb and Catelyn less likable and moved them from the "obvious good guys" to the "somewhat flawed but still better than the other guys." So I've kind of lost my rooting interest in the Starks and therefore wasn't all that distraught when they were killed.

And as I said before, all the fanboy focus on Dany and her dragons and her army never really made sense to me, because if she's coming to conquer Westeros, she's not just going to defeat the Lannisters, but would also be fighting against our "heroes," the Starks. So now with the Starks out of the picture (at least from making any kind of claim on the throne), that frees me up to start caring more about the Daenerys story.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

tiassa said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Dragons. Blood of the Dragon.


----------



## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

Cearbhaill said:


> I read the first one and was very disappointed with it.
> 
> I expected a long and comprehensive novel with imagery and backstory and meticulous character development- something like Tolkien or T.H. White. Serious books. Instead I got easy reading that read to me like a young adult novel- just very simply written and quite unsophisticated in the way it was constructed. It felt juvenile.
> I doubt I will get agreement here because so many of you adore the books but my disappointment was extreme.
> ...


Well, what I'm about to write will probably get me flayed, quartered and banned from the Internet.

I'd much rather read Martin than Tolkien. Tolkien is tedious, boring, plodding and dull.

<jumps into bomb shelter>


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Flop said:


> Well, what I'm about to write will probably get me flayed, quartered and banned from the Internet.
> 
> I'd much rather read Martin than Tolkien. Tolkien is tedious, boring, plodding and dull.
> 
> <jumps into bomb shelter>


Neither are masters of editing or tightly-written stories.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> So, if Joff is offed  then is the younger brother king?





Rob Helmerichs said:


> In theory, he would be next in line.
> 
> Although we have seen how well theory plays out in practice, so in practice, we'll just have to see.


But wouldn't that just be perfect for Tywin? he can rule in the little kid's stead for years and he doesn't have to worry about controlling Joffrey.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> But wouldn't that just be perfect for Tywin? he can rule in the little kid's stead for years and he doesn't have to worry about controlling Joffrey.


Of course, you're assuming Tywin outlives Joffrey.

C'mon, guys, this is GoT! Why are you assuming ANYTHING?!?


----------



## TiVangelist (Aug 28, 2000)

I'm another non-book reader and the slaughter caught me completely by surprise. Totally floored. I guess I should have known when Ned was offed that anything could happen, but I'd fallen back into that tv-land happy endings mode and forgot what could happen. 

I think it is really something that a GoT compilation of reaction videos gets over a million views on YouTube. What a phenomenon. I'm glad no one was recording me while I was watching.

I've read the whole thread and don't get the Jon Snow "who knows nothing" vibe. What's up with that? Is it a comment on his innocence? his intellect (or lack thereof)?


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

TiVangelist said:


> I've read the whole thread and don't get the Jon Snow "who knows nothing" vibe. What's up with that? Is it a comment on his innocence? his intellect (or lack thereof)?


I'm sure this was on the show, but since it was also in the books, and my memory is faulty, I'll spoil.



Spoiler



The wilding girl has repeatedly said "You know nothing, Jon Snow".


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> C'mon, guys, this is GoT! Why are you assuming ANYTHING?!?


After this week's episode, I've learned to never assume anything. Ever!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TiVangelist said:


> I've read the whole thread and don't get the Jon Snow "who knows nothing" vibe. What's up with that? Is it a comment on his innocence? his intellect (or lack thereof)?


It's what Ygritte always says to him. "You know nothing, Jon Snow." It's a comment about how naive he is and how he doesn't understand anything outside of his little, insulated world.





































And my favorite:


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Because of the 3rd person limited POV that the story is told through, by necessity some of the chapters are going to be fairly unsophisticated.
> 
> But I think you're dramatically underestimating how comprehensive the story is. The backstory alone of all of the major houses is remarkably dense, and the character development is terrific. But you won't necessarily get that over the course of one book.


Nobody comes through without having been changed for the experience. Is that not the very definition of "Character development"?

Because of the limited POV, we actually find ourselves (the readers) changing our opinions of characters as time goes on.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Robb Stark's girlfriend is Clara Oswin Oswald, so he has that to comfort him...


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Nobody comes through without having been changed for the experience. Is that not the very definition of "Character development"?
> 
> Because of the limited POV, we actually find ourselves (the readers) changing our opinions of characters as time goes on.


Indeed. Although I still hate Cersei.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, you're assuming Tywin outlives Joffrey.
> 
> C'mon, guys, this is GoT! Why are you assuming ANYTHING?!?


Arya's memorized list of names has to pay off. She'll spew the list for J'gan H'dar (whatevah) and they all will be dayd.

Tywin never realized that his chalice girl was Arya Stark.

What if The Hound had arrived at the Twin Towers just a half day earlier? The wedding might not have gone as planned.

Did Edmund Tulley get some before he got his?


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Robb Stark's girlfriend is Clara Oswin Oswald, so he has that to comfort him...


Really? Doctor Who *and* GoT all wrapped up in one package?

I did not know that!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> In the book as on the show,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


This makes sense. Thanks! :up:



Anubys said:


> you misunderstand...we don't read or care about your posts! scrolling through your long posts - unread - gives us a sense of accomplishment


Oh.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> Really? Doctor Who *and* GoT all wrapped up in one package?
> 
> I did not know that!


I bet when they go on dates, they leave a trail of exploded geek brains all over London.


----------



## TiVangelist (Aug 28, 2000)

allan said:


> I'm sure this was on the show, but since it was also in the books, and my memory is faulty, I'll spoil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! Now that you say it, it's very familiar!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> What if The Hound had arrived at the Twin Towers just a half day earlier? The wedding might not have gone as planned.
> 
> Did Edmund Tulley get some before he got his?


I don't get the logic. Why would Arya have changed anything? or even the Hound?

I think they foretold what will happen to Edmund: nothing. He is a controllable idiot. Just the kind of person they will want in charge of Riverrun.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I don't get the logic. Why would Arya have changed anything? or even the Hound?


The Hound would have picked up on the ambush and taken more than a few heads.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh.


I'm hearing sad Charlie Brown music as I watch this.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

netringer said:


> The Hound would have picked up on the ambush and taken more than a few heads.


But would have probably still died along with Arya. I don't think anyone inside those doors stood a chance. That's exactly why it was set up the way it was.



DevdogAZ said:


> I'm hearing sad Charlie Brown music as I watch this.


It's exactly that.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

PSG, I too felt the same way about grey wind. I'm glad they didn't do in the show what was done in the book:



Spoiler



They behead Robb and the wolf, then sew the wolfs head on Robb.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> PSG, I too felt the same way about grey wind. I'm glad they didn't do in the show what was done in the book:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



It doesn't mean that it won't happen - could be mentioned, if not shown ... I am not eager to see the imagery if they do.


Brief interview with the showrunners - concerning this episode ... good read, no spolers that I can see ...
http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/02/red-wedding-interview/

Oh, and "Facebook" recap of the episode is back:
http://www.happyplace.com/24297/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-9


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

There is a book spoiler thread for book 3 is here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468391


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jehma said:


> Your post was cut off mid-word, as if Arya said your name to Jaqen H'ghar.




Bad copy and pasting and lack of sleep more than anything else!


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> If it makes you feel better, I thought as you did (as to her meaning)!
> 
> so...anyone think that Joffrey is getting killed next week?


I was thinking that and:

Spoiler from the coming attractions:



Spoiler



It looks like there's going to be some battle between Tywin and Joffrey, so it's entirely possible.



But I also think this might have been the surpise bloodbath for this season. So I'm not so sure.

I'd be torn with him getting it though. While we all despise the character, he is just such a perfect foil for Tyrion and, well everyone. And I'm not sure Tywin wants to be front and center. I think he wants to be more like Dick Cheney (which fits since as hand of the king, he's almost like a VP), where he can be the puppet master and pull the strings without taking all the responsibilty that goes with leading. I also think there still has to be more to the alliance between Tywin and Diana Rigg's character.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I feel like Joffrey has so much more evil to do before he'll be ripe for killing. I've not read the books and I know nothing (just like Jon Snow), but I would find it very unfulfilling if Joffrey got offed so soon. In my mind, if the king gets killed, then we're right back to the end of S1/beginning of S2 where there's a bunch of people vying for the throne. I feel like that issue has finally been mostly settled, and it would be redundant to start it over again.


If I had my way, I'd like to see Dany off Joffrey, because it would kind of echo what happened to the Mad King. Since Joffrey is most equally a Mad King as well, it should be fitting that Targarian off him and take the throne back. With Dany's army growing with each episode, not to mention her coffers, we must be getting close to her making an assault on Westeros.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> With Dany's army growing with each episode, not to mention her coffers, we must be getting close to her making an assault on Westeros.


She still has to get to the same continent, then I assume there will be a few episodes if not a full season or more of her causing trouble and drama at the edges of the kingdom.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> As has been pointed out, the devastating part is that since the beginning of the story we have been conditioned to believe that the Starks are going to be the heroes of this story. First we thought it was going to be Ned, and since he was killed, it was perfectly natural to assume that the story would revolve around his family's revenge. And then boom. Not anymore.


That could still happen. There's still 4 1/2 family members left, Sansa and Arya, Bran and Ricon. Plus John Snow. As there are still lots of story to tell (since there's 1/2 of book 3, and all of 4 and 5, right?). To me, I feel like Arya is going to be the eventual hero of this story. She is most like her father of all the Starks. She's spending a lot of time with people who could influence her in both power and inner stregnth. I get the feeling that the two girls will wind up the survivors of the Starks. Do they wind up aligning with Dany somewhere down the road (meaing potentially three heroeines!!)?

I have only "read" book 1 (well listened to book on CD), so I have no idea what will happen next, just conjecture.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think Dany has some unfinished business in the East. She still has to regain her throne as Khaleisei. So I assume she will next conquer those horse people (I forget their name). She also has to get revenge for the guy whose head got cut off during the trek through the red sands. She's not out to get "only" Westeros.

Not sure how she's going to do that since they insist that their leader must be the toughest and strongest (and can be challenged in combat by anyone). Dany doesn't exactly fit the bill, even if her dragons and army does.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> . To me, I feel like Arya is going to be the eventual hero of this story.


I don't think this story has a hero.

I think nearly everyone will end up dead


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

secondclaw said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent comparison with Adrianna of The Sopranos. When that happened, even know I KNEW it was going to happen, it was hard to deal with. I remember thinking...don't get in the car with them, and c'mon A, you know what's going to happen don't you? The difference I suppose is that you KNEW that was coming, but you didn't know about Robb and Caetlyn. (Well I had a hunch based on how Frey was acting...but still).


----------



## magaggie (Apr 9, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> To me, I feel like Arya is going to be the eventual hero of this story. She is most like her father of all the Starks. She's spending a lot of time with people who could influence her in both power and inner stregnth.


You know you just killed her by saying that, right?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I think Dany has some unfinished business in the East. She still has to regain her throne as Khaleisei. So I assume she will next conquer those horse people (I forget their name). She also has to get revenge for the guy whose head got cut off during the trek through the red sands. She's not out to get "only" Westeros.
> 
> Not sure how she's going to do that since they insist that their leader must be the toughest and strongest (and can be challenged in combat by anyone). Dany doesn't exactly fit the bill, even if her dragons and army does.


You might be right, but I still get the feeling that if the time was right to regain the Iron Throne, she'd take it and forget the other things, which she might be in a position to go after once she's queen. What about Dany does not give off an air of being the toughest and strongest? She has THREE powerful men who are doing her bidding, mostly without question, she's conqured three or four places now and taken over those armies, mostly because of her direction. There will always be people who question her resolve since she's a woman in a male dominated land and time, but she certainly has proven her mettle. I haven't read past book 1, so I don't know. Maybe the ultimate battle at the end of the series will be Dany vs. the Lannisters, or maybe it happens sooner, and the story continues with either her defeated or on the Iron Throne with the Lannisters seaking to recapture it. But that's the fun, we just don't know and are along for the ride.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> You might be right, but I still get the feeling that if the time was right to regain the Iron Throne, she'd take it and forget the other things, which she might be in a position to go after once she's queen. What about Dany does not give off an air of being the toughest and strongest? She has THREE powerful men who are doing her bidding, mostly without question, she's conqured three or four places now and taken over those armies, mostly because of her direction. There will always be people who question her resolve since she's a woman in a male dominated land and time, but she certainly has proven her mettle. I haven't read past book 1, so I don't know. Maybe the ultimate battle at the end of the series will be Dany vs. the Lannisters, or maybe it happens sooner, and the story continues with either her defeated or on the Iron Throne with the Lannisters seaking to recapture it. But that's the fun, we just don't know and are along for the ride.


Those horse people expect their leader to do his/her own fighting. Not that she abides by anyone's rules, but it will be a cultural change for them once they are conquered to have to fight the leader's man, not the leader him/herself.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Those horse people expect their leader to do his/her own fighting. Not that she abides by anyone's rules, but it will be a cultural change for them once they are conquered to have to fight the leader's man, not the leader him/herself.


Good luck to anyone trying to fight her individually as long as those dragons are around.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Those horse people...


Dothraki.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

zordude said:


> She still has to get to the same continent, then I assume there will be a few episodes if not a full season or more of her causing trouble and drama at the edges of the kingdom.


And those dragons still have some growing to do.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> With Dany's army growing with each episode, not to mention her coffers, we must be getting close to her making an assault on Westeros.


I'm not sure it will be that soon. Dany really seems to get offended when she doesn't get what she thinks she deserves. Remember that she is the Khalesi who was abandoned by her Dothraki tribe. And remember how she told the people at Qarth the when her dragons are grown, she will take revenge on those who have wronged her. I'm wondering if, since she's already in the neighborhood, we'll see Dany take on the Dothraki first.

Also, based on the books (this is just very vague book info...I've not read the books):


Spoiler



we have 1 more season before book 3 is complete. Then books 4 and 5 take place at the same time. Since book 5 is titled "A Dance with Dragons", I assume that's when we'll actually see Dany really get busy. That will take place in seasons 5 & 6. Until then, I assume we'll just see more of the same...her gradually building her army.

So if I'm right, and she does go after the Dothraki first, that will happen in the first half of book 5. Thus I wouldn't expect her to reach Westeros until at least season 6 of the TV show (which I assume would cover the 2nd halves of books 4 and 5).


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Dany vs Dothraki -- Remember that the "Dothraki Sea" is grasslands. A couple of Dragon flyovers and you could start a conflagration that would do severe damage to the entire Dothraki people.


----------



## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

Since Robb just stood in a tent playing with himself all season it was not a huge loss.

It certainly took me by surprise, the wedding I mean. The story has grown so large they needed to trim some characters. It is good that they could do so with some of the main ones. 

It really leaves an interesting remnants of the Starks. You have thw Worg boy who can't walk, half breed bastard Jon Snow, the youngest son, the spunky daughter son and Sansa.

I am very interested if the Starks still have something to say in all this at the end of the day.

I would love to see Daenysus and Brann team up at some point.

My weirdest reaction was one that certainly had to run through Robb and Catelyn's mind at the end, "How could I have been so dumb not to have seen this coming."


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Ahh interesting, Bran warging a dragon could be cool.


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

I think we have a longer wait than people are thinking before everything resolves. Book 6 is still being written and there's a 7th book planned. Unless the tv writers decide things need to be resolved faster than that. But I don't see GRRM allowing things to be resolved on TV before they're resolved in the books.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

nirisahn said:


> I think we have a longer wait than people are thinking before everything resolves. Book 6 is still being written and there's a 7th book planned. Unless the tv writers decide things need to be resolved faster than that. But I don't see GRRM allowing things to be resolved on TV before they're resolved in the books.


You could "resolve" major plot points and move into others. You could have Dany defeat the Lannisters for instance, once she finally invades Westeros, and they flee into exile and then some other story begins. This doesn't ever have to have a "final" resolution. This could also play out over many generations if so decided. Think about this, if Tyrion and Sansa ever DO cosumate their marriage, then you have a kid who's both a Lannister AND a Stark. That's an interesting mix and gives the Starks SOME sway in all of this potentially.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

nirisahn said:


> I think we have a longer wait than people are thinking before everything resolves. Book 6 is still being written and there's a 7th book planned. Unless the tv writers decide things need to be resolved faster than that. But I don't see GRRM allowing things to be resolved on TV before they're resolved in the books.


There's a very real chance that the show catches up to/passes the books. They start filming S4 (which is part 2 of Book 3) next month. Assuming that they spend 2 seasons apiece on the next 2 books, that means that they will start filming the contents of the 6th book in July 2018, and the 7th book in July 2020.

Here are the release dates of the books so far:

A Game of Thrones (1996)
A Clash of Kings (1998)
A Storm of Swords (2000)
A Feast for Crows (2005)
A Dance with Dragons (2011)
The Winds of Winter - ??
A Dream of Spring - ??

So he cranked the first 3 out pretty fast, but since then his pace has slowed dramatically. The 6th book definitely won't be out this year, and probably not next year. So assuming it's out in 2015 at the earliest, he's going to have to scramble to finish the final book in time for filming to start on schedule.

Of course, what this likely means is that they are going to take a longer break in between seasons at some point.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> There's a very real chance that the show catches up to/passes the books. They start filming S4 (which is part 2 of Book 3) next month. Assuming that they spend 2 seasons apiece on the next 2 books, that means that they will start filming the contents of the 6th book in July 2018, and the 7th book in July 2020.
> 
> Here are the release dates of the books so far:
> 
> ...


It's also quite possible that the series gets cancelled before he finishes the books. Unlikely based on the ratings, but possible.

I didn't realize the first book was 1996!! I thought this series was pretty recent. Obviously since this is a medievel story, the age of the books has no bearing on the story, but I'm surprised nobody has tried to make a movie of the first book years ago.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> There's a very real chance that the show catches up to/passes the books. They start filming S4 (which is part 2 of Book 3) next month. Assuming that they spend 2 seasons apiece on the next 2 books, that means that they will start filming the contents of the 6th book in July 2018, and the 7th book in July 2020.
> 
> Here are the release dates of the books so far:
> 
> ...


I also don't think it's necessarily safe to say that they'll continue with two seasons per book. That would put them at 12 seasons, which is a long time to be producing a show as expensive as this. I think it's entirely possible that S5 and S6 combine books 4 and 5, meaning that they'll be ready to film book 6 by S7, which would be in 2016.

From what I've heard/read, GRRM has actually told Weiss and Benioff the basic plot points and the endgame so that if they need to pass the books, or if he's unable to complete the books, they'll be able to continue with the show through the end of the story.

http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/12/george-martin-talks-a-dance-with-dragons/


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> Ahh interesting, Bran warging a dragon could be cool.


Wow, I can't believe I never thought of that before.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I'm surprised nobody has tried to make a movie of the first book years ago.


Look how hard it was to fit the first book into 10 hours, let alone 2.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Word, is, they've already decided that the show will last


Spoiler



seven seasons, which means there should be some (much-needed) compression when they get into the post-Red Wedding part of the books, where the story often tends to drag and meander. Which also means there is very little chance the books will end before the series. Assuming, of course, that the series makes it to seven, but so far it seems to be going strong...but it is very expensive, and if the "cool" factor starts to decline, I suspect HBO will take a long, hard look at it.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

It is the reason I got HBO, and if it is cancelled, so too will HBO be.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

It was be miraculous if:

A) Many of the key actors don't move on to other things before the series is "done"
B) The children aren't too old to play their parts by season 5.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think you're all forgetting something before Dany comes knocking. Dany won't be knocking Joffrey off the throne, she will be knocking Stannis off of it.

Mellisandre told Stannis that he will sit on the throne (I say he will be headless, but I digress). I have no doubt that the Red God has shown true visions. I don't think Stannis will defeat Dany. Therefore, he will be there before she gets to Westoros.

keep in mind, I know nothing (Jon Snow). I have not read the books.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> It was be miraculous if:
> 
> A) Many of the key actors don't move on to other things before the series is "done"
> B) The children aren't too old to play their parts by season 5.


Well, the actors are under contract for as along as they're needed, so that shouldn't be an issue (assuming they don't die or get greedy). And a lot of time is passing on the show; the kids are aging in fits and starts between seasons, but overall, years have passed since the show began, so that's also not really a problem (the only problem being, they could do a better job of getting across how long these journeys take; e.g., it takes months to get from Castle Rock to Winterfell, which happened twice during Season 1).


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> (the only problem being, they could do a better job of getting across how long these journeys take; e.g., it takes months to get from Castle Rock to Winterfell, which happened twice during Season 1).


If GoT has the same scale of Westeros as the novels, the Kingsroad is over 2000 miles long.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

kaszeta said:


> If GoT has the same scale of Westeros as the novels, the Kingsroad is over 2000 miles long.


Exactly. My point is, in one episode King Robert takes off for Winterfell, and the next he arrives, with only a passing complaint from Cersei (I think) about how long they've been on the road. And that's just good television; they don't want to spend hours of screen time watching a caravan inch its way up the Kingsroad (it's also easy to forget how slow travel was in an age without motor vehicles & paved roads, much less airplanes). So it's easy to forget or not notice that years are passing on the show.


----------



## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

If the actress playing Sansa grows any more, she may have to switch parts with Brianna. 

I have no idea if this is going to happen, but if I don't see a climactic battle involving Dany atop a fire breathing dragon, I will be disappointed.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, the actors are under contract for as along as they're needed, so that shouldn't be an issue (assuming they don't die or get greedy). And a lot of time is passing on the show; the kids are aging in fits and starts between seasons, but overall, years have passed since the show began, so that's also not really a problem (the only problem being, they could do a better job of getting across how long these journeys take; e.g., it takes months to get from Castle Rock to Winterfell, which happened twice during Season 1).


How much time, exactly? My impression is that it hasn't been 2 years since the events of the first season in Winterfell yet the actors have aged that much, and certainly 3 years by the end of the fourth season is a stretch...?


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

From what I can find the TV series started in 298AL, and the current season ended sometime in 300AL, so it between 2 - 3 years somewhere.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Word, is, they've already decided that the show will last
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


That seems crazy to me...



Spoiler



because it essentially means that they are going to compress 4 books (Books 4-7, although it is likely that elements of book 4 are going to show up in S4, since they've already done that with Theon's storyline, for instance) into 3 seasons of TV, after taking 4 seasons of TV to cover 3 books.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

A nice recap on Boing-Boing, which has a great opening:


> The latest episode of Game of Thrones was pretty much business as usual. It turned out Walder Frey was ready to let bygones be bygones, and a lovely wedding feast was held for Edmure and Roslin. Wine flowed, and music played.
> 
> I mean, they played the Lannister family song at a Tully wedding, which I thought was pretty rude. It's like, why are they playing that song?
> 
> Why are they playing that -- oh.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> That seems crazy to me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you read the books?


Spoiler



I think there's ample room for compression both of events and of characters once we get past the weddings. I think Martin really got lost in the weeds, and it's only at the end of Book 5 that there are hints that things are starting to come together again. There's a lot of awesome stuff, but having all the awesome stuff and none of the endless meandering will, I think, make the show become better than the books for at least the next 2½ books.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> Ahh interesting, Bran warging a dragon could be cool.


Unleash the Hodor!

Hodor, Hodor Hodor!
Hodor, Hodor Hodor!
Hodor, Hodor Hodor!
Hodor, Hodor Hodor!
Hodor, Hodor Hodor!
Hodor, Hodor Hodor!
Hodor, Hodor Hodor!
Hodor, Hodor Hodor!
Hodor, Hodor Hodor!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I am Groot!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dandrewk said:


> If the actress playing Sansa grows any more, she may have to switch parts with Brianna.


I think Sansa still has a long way to go before she's 6'3".


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> From what I've heard/read, GRRM has actually told Weiss and Benioff the basic plot points and the endgame so that if they need to pass the books, or if he's unable to complete the books, they'll be able to continue with the show through the end of the story.
> 
> http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/12/george-martin-talks-a-dance-with-dragons/


I also read in some interview with Weiss & Benioff that if the show needs to pass the books, it will. They didn't consider it a likely possibility, but they have already discussed the need to do so. And will do so if the books have stalled. By their very nature, shows like this can only run for 6-8 years max before they run out of steam. They *will* bring the TV series to a proper conclusion, books be d*mned. Having said that, I think all parties (W&B and GRRM) would really like to see the books finish first.

BTW, great interview in that link. It's from 2011, just after Dance with Dragons was released (no spoilers in interview). It's interesting to hear GRRM's thoughts about the show, back when only one season was done. He even talks about how hard it is to fit each book into a single season. He hopes they split book 3 into two seasons (wish granted!).


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I have to say I loved Jon Stewarts throwaway reference last night.

When talking about the new MERS epidemic, which has killed 30 people so far, he comments: "It's killed 30 people? You know what they call that on Game of Thrones? A wedding!"


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

> The latest episode of Game of Thrones was pretty much business as usual. It turned out Walder Frey was ready to let bygones be bygones, and a lovely wedding feast was held for Edmure and Roslin. Wine flowed, and music played.
> 
> I mean, they played the Lannister family song at a Tully wedding, which I thought was pretty rude. It's like, why are they playing that song?
> 
> http://boingboing.net/2013/06/05/game-of-thrones-s3e9-the-red.html#more-234355


Heh.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Have you read the books?
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Of course.



Spoiler



I read them more or less consecutively last year, until, midway through Book 4, when I had to read something else for awhile because I just got tired of it all. Which, I agree with you, is largely because all of the storylines were seemingly stuck in the mud/snow/sand for far too long, and because much of S4 ignores my favorite characters.

That said, there are still 2 books left, and what *seems* like a tremendous amount of buildup left before GRRM can even get to what most of us probably imagine is going to be the final conflagration. So it would seem those books need to be quite large, and thus unwieldy to translate into 10 episodes per.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> e.g., it takes months to get from Castle Rock to Winterfell, which happened twice during Season 1).


Kings Landing.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Because of the 3rd person limited POV that the story is told through, by necessity some of the chapters are going to be fairly unsophisticated.


Is there a Hodor chapter? Hodor. Hodor, Hodor!

At the wedding, it seemed like the guy with the chain mail glanced at his arm to tip Catelyn off. Why? To get things started? It wasn't going to make any difference.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Exactly. My point is, in one episode King Robert takes off for Winterfell, and the next he arrives, with only a passing complaint from Cersei (I think) about how long they've been on the road. And that's just good television; they don't want to spend hours of screen time watching a caravan inch its way up the Kingsroad (it's also easy to forget how slow travel was in an age without motor vehicles & paved roads, much less airplanes). So it's easy to forget or not notice that years are passing on the show.


Yep. And I have just started the books but I picked up a comment recently in the series that Jamie Lannister was locked up by the Starks for around a year. That didn't really come across and if I hadn't picked up that one comment I wouldn't have realized.


----------



## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

As good as the TV episode was, the book was even better at leading up to the climax. It drops little hints along the way you think are incidental. e.g. (from Catelyn's POV) she notices how awful the musicians are in the balcony, only later realizing they aren't really musicians but bowmen. The whole carnage gets started when one of the Freys in rudely violent to one of her servants and she slaps him, only then discovering that he's wearing chain mail underneath his shirt. That's when the fun really begins, revealing a horrible chain of events.

Maybe the best chapter in the series, especially with all the dramatic narrative points uncovered.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> I have to say I loved Jon Stewarts throwaway reference last night.
> 
> When talking about the new MERS epidemic, which has killed 30 people so far, he comments: "It's killed 30 people? You know what they call that on Game of Thrones? A wedding!"


Saw that, and the wife and I both laughed. Then it was followed with "oh yeah....SPOILER ALERT! Read the books, people".

Of course, that's better than what happened on TMZ yesterday. According to my wife (I don't watch the show), one of the guys threw out a couple spoilers. They bleeped one out, but not the other. She said it seemed pretty major. Not about somebody getting killed, but something of similar significance. I didn't press her for specifics, so I'm not exactly sure what it was. Anyone else see it? Anyone who has read the books and can comment about whether it was an actual spoiler or not?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The wedding scene reminded me of WWE wrestling matches. Things are moving along as usual, then suddenly some unsuspected person's theme song starts playing and the announcer starts yelling "They're playing the Lannisters' music! They're playing the Lannisters' music!!" and then all hell breaks loose. Bad guys rush in from all angles with the good guys get clobbered, laying in crumpled heaps all over the place.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Keep in mind also that even when they catch up, there's a pretty good chance that Martin will have completed a good portion of a draft of Book 7, which would give the producers even more knowledge of the endgame than has likely already been disclosed.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

3D said:


> Keep in mind also that even when they catch up, there's a pretty good chance that Martin will have completed a good portion of a draft of Book 7, which would give the producers even more knowledge of the endgame than has likely already been disclosed.


Imagine if they release book 7 on the same day as the final season premiere. How about that for joint marketing.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

mostman said:


> Imagine if they release book 7 on the same day as the final season premiere. How about that for joint marketing.


I'd like to. I'll stick with just imagining he writes it sometime before I'm dead.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> Keep in mind also that even when they catch up, there's a pretty good chance that Martin will have completed a good portion of a draft of Book 7, which would give the producers even more knowledge of the endgame than has likely already been disclosed.


By all reports, he's barely started on Book 6...


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

mostman said:


> Imagine if they release book 7 on the same day as the final season premiere. How about that for joint marketing.


OMG, that would KILL me. I'd rather read the book first, but they're long and take a while to get through. There's NO way I would be able to wait and not watch the show!

You're making me stressed just thinking about it. It's like Sophie's Choice!


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

jakerock said:


> I'd like to. I'll stick with just imagining he writes it sometime before I'm dead.


Or before he's dead.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> By all reports, he's barely started on Book 6...


Well he has been kinda busy.....

BTW...he was on Conan last night. I recorded it, but haven't watched it yet.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Well he has been kinda busy.....
> 
> BTW...he was on Conan last night. I recorded it, but haven't watched it yet.


A friend posted the link but I haven't watched it yet: http://www.blastr.com/2013-6-6/watc...thrones?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Here's Lena Headly on Conan: http://winteriscoming.net/2013/06/lena-headey-goes-on-conan-discusses-the-red-wedding/


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Funny.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Or before he's dead.


Logically if he dies before he writes it then by definition I'll be dead too before he finishes. And I thought of that as I wrote it. (I'm supposed to be coding at the moment.)


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> By all reports, he's barely started on Book 6...


I've been avoiding any talk of accounts of his progress because I thought Martin made it clear, after the debacles he faced with his ultimately incorrect estimates on the last two books, that he would no longer provide updates on his progress. Based on your comment, I hope (more like wishful thinking) that he's content to let everyone presume that things are going slowly, but will ultimately surprise us by announcing a finished product sooner than anyone is speculating.

ETA: To further fuel my wishful thinking, at about the nine minute mark of the previously linked Conan video, Martin says that he's been writing "very fast" to try and stay ahead of the show.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

robojerk said:


> Funny.


That is ABSOLUTELY how I felt when the credits were rolling!!!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> By all reports, he's barely started on Book 6...


On Conan last night he said he's been working on it for six years and that it's going to be another 1,500 page monstrosity like the last one. He also said his biggest fear is that the TV show will catch up to him, and since they're doing basically a book a year, and he's taking six years, there's a very real possibility of that happening. He didn't say it, but I got the sense that he's close on Book 6.

He also said it's entirely possible Benioff and Weiss could change stuff. He talked about how there are already differences between the two and how there are at least four characters currently alive on the TV show that are dead at this point in the books.

First time I've ever seen (other than still pictures) or heard him. Wow that guy is a nerd!


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## Waldorf (Oct 4, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> On Conan last night he said .. there are at least four characters currently alive on the TV show that are dead at this point in the books.


I think that's when he was talking to some of the actors at the premiere and it occurred to him that they were dead in the books. When he mentions the "four characters", I just watched it again and he said:



George R. R. Martin said:


> I already had a scene that many people consider extremely brutal and as bad as anything and they turned it up to 11 by including even more deaths than I had in the books, so there are at least four characters who are dead in the tv show that are alive in the books still. Hopefully it will end the same way in the tv show as it does in the books, but we'll see.


Which has me trying to remember and reconcile the differences again, but that is a post for another thread.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

It's my understanding that this pretty much describes how the series will end:


Spoiler


----------



## rjay717 (Nov 18, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I am Groot!


Of course you're upset about the wedding. We all are. But we have to move on.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

The Red Wedding, Storybook Edition:


----------



## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> The Red Wedding, Storybook Edition:


Wow, massive déjà vu. Glitch in the Westeros smeeking matrix?


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Exact same video from my post.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Doh. Didn't see it.


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## MegaHertz67 (Apr 18, 2005)

I haven't read the books, but am loving the show. All-in-all one thing is obvious...Westros seems to be a miserable place to live.

Every character that glimpses an opportunity for happiness is going to be tortured/humiliated/killed. There is no pure form of happiness. The closest thing we saw was Ned and the family in episode 1 before the king came a calling. 

Any character that lives a life of pleasure or privilege does so by protecting their station with brutality in the face of opposition, or by using politics to undermine any threat before it can hurt them. 

The two characters that seem to hold the most promise of success in the long run were in the worst shape when we began the story. Dany was being traded as a piece of property to help her power hungry brother gain an army. And Jon Snow, who knows nothing, had to pledge himself to a life of celibacy and service in the Knight's Watch for the crime of being a bastard. 

One more episode...


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

MegaHertz67 said:


> I haven't read the books, but am loving the show. All-in-all one thing is obvious...Westros seems to be a miserable place to live.


It really is. And I don't think the show shows how truly miserable it is for the commoners, compared to the books. The army comes through and they rape and pillage, and the commoners do what they can to survive. Then the lines get pushed back, and the other side comes through, and those that survived before are now considered enemy sympathizers and further brutalized, or executed. And neither side is really better about that than the other.


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)




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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

... and "winter is coming", so with no harvest due to the wars... that's a lot of hungry folks.

Oh, and the white walkers are coming too. I just hope Castle Black can defend the wall with so few...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dandrewk said:


> Oh, and the white walkers are coming too. I just hope Castle Black can defend the wall with so few...


I wonder how many dragons it would take to secure the wall.

Two?

Four?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wonder how many dragons it would take to secure the wall.
> 
> Two?
> 
> Four?


Depends on how fast they can fly, and how long the wall actually is.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Depends on how fast they can fly, and how long the wall actually is.


Also, how much fire can they breath before tiring? Remember they said back in season 1 how the forest used to never come anywhere near the wall? If the dragons could simply burn down all the nearby forest, it would help tremendously.


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

--Carlos V.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Depends on how fast they can fly, and how long the wall actually is.


Also if they are European or African dragons.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

dandrewk said:


> Also if they are European or African dragons.


Shouldn't that be Westerosi or Dothraki? Or perhaps Valyrian? 

Ah, the age old dragon nature vs. nurture debate. Whether a fiercer dragon is produced from being raised in confinement, fed a steady diet of tender maidens (just flowered); or from a free range dragon, forced to fend for itself and hunt horses and oxen. Or whether only the dragon's bloodline matters. Who can say? Perhaps the ancient Valyrians knew, but if so, they took their secrets to the grave.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I finally watched the Conan interview with Martin. Wow, I had no idea that he wasn't English, but from New Jersey. I think that explains why GoT is so much like warring Mafia families  Tywin is like The Godfather. His kin are like his Captains. There's the Lannister Code which is like a Mafia code, always be loyal to your family.

BTW....when you think about it, considering Westeros is a fictional place, and the author is from NJ, why do all the characters have to have British accents? (Yeah, I know, kind of think of Westoros as Middle Age England, just by the nature of Knights and Kings and all of that).


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I finally watched the Conan interview with Martin. Wow, I had no idea that he wasn't English, but from New Jersey. I think that explains why GoT is so much like warring Mafia families  Tywin is like The Godfather. His kin are like his Captains. There's the Lannister Code which is like a Mafia code, always be loyal to your family.
> 
> BTW....when you think about it, considering Westeros is a fictional place, and the author is from NJ, why do all the characters have to have British accents? (Yeah, I know, kind of think of Westoros as Middle Age England, just by the nature of Knights and Kings and all of that).


I don't think GoT would have the same "feel" if everyone had New Joisey accents.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

allan said:


> I don't think GoT would have the same "feel" if everyone had New Joisey accents.


Hahaha, it would have been awesome!

I'm just kidding, but it's funny how I assumed Martin was British and that Westeros = UK. And yet, it's a fictional place in a fictional world, so in reality it's characters could sound like anything.

But yeah, the feel of the show is definitely Middle Age UK.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Hahaha, it would have been awesome!
> 
> I'm just kidding, but it's funny how I assumed Martin was British and that Westeros = UK. And yet, it's a fictional place in a fictional world, so in reality it's characters could sound like anything.
> 
> But yeah, the feel of the show is definitely Middle Age UK.


More than that, the Starks/Baratheons and their erstwhile allies and the Wildlings tend to have Northern English accents, while the Lannisters, Tyrells and others have more Southern English accents.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Mr. Soze said:


> More than that, the Starks/Baratheons and their erstwhile allies and the Wildlings tend to have Northern English accents, while the Lannisters, Tyrells and others have more Southern English accents.


I didn't pick up on that, but then again, I have no idea what the differences are in English accents. I could tell a cockney accent, and what I always considerned an "upper crust" English accent, and MAYBE a Liverpool accent (because of the Beatles), but beyond that, I can't tell.

So why is that anyway? A book written by an American author, in a fictional land, and we all assume English accents. It's probably we all are just conditioned that stories that are about Kings and Queens and Knights should have characters with English accents. Actually they shouldn't have CURRENT English accents either, but that of the English of the Middle Ages 

Yeah, I know, just go with it.

But the thought of Tywin Lannister sounding like Tony Soprano makes me laugh hysterically!!


----------



## Waldorf (Oct 4, 2002)

Mr. Soze said:


> More than that, the Starks/Baratheons and their erstwhile allies and the Wildlings tend to have Northern English accents, while the Lannisters, Tyrells and others have more Southern English accents.


BBC did a feature on this last year.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I'm amused by their comment, in that article, about how you couldn't do it with Southern (American) accents.

I can easily see Cersei and the Lannisters with deep south plantation accents. Southern Charm conceals many a knife, and the Lannisters would fit perfectly hurling barely disquised barbs at one another while sipping lemonade and putting on airs of graciousness.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I didn't pick up on that, but then again, I have no idea what the differences are in English accents. I could tell a cockney accent, and what I always considerned an "upper crust" English accent, and MAYBE a Liverpool accent (because of the Beatles), but beyond that, I can't tell.
> 
> So why is that anyway? A book written by an American author, in a fictional land, and we all assume English accents. It's probably we all are just conditioned that stories that are about Kings and Queens and Knights should have characters with English accents. Actually they shouldn't have CURRENT English accents either, but that of the English of the Middle Ages
> 
> ...


I don't think we're assuming anything about how these people sound. It's a choice that the creators of the TV show made, probably with the blessing of GRRM. They could have just as easily have chosen to make these people sound like they're from Jersey Shore, but would viewers have taken the show seriously? Even you say the thought of it makes you laugh hysterically. Do you think the show would be such a huge hit if the characters were presented as a mob parody in the middle ages rather than as a serious middle ages period piece?


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Re-watched the episode. And I still feel like I was punched in the gut...again. 

FYI, I like to re-watch episodes on On Demand. After the credits the producers talk about the episode.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I just had dinner with a neighbor who got back today from a 10 day road trip to Florida. Guess what she watched for the first time in the hotel room?



Yep. The Game of Thrones.



Yep. This Red Wedding episode. 



Talk about spoilers.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd it's up.

http://www.happyplace.com/24297/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-9

Not as funny as the rest, but this was not the funniest episode.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd it's up.
> 
> http://www.happyplace.com/24297/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-9
> 
> Not as funny as the rest, but this was not the funniest episode.


Annnnnnnnnnnnnnd, smeek! 

(It was posted by secondclaw on 6/4 at 9:22 pm PT. I can't see post numbers on ForumRunner.)


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## Snappa77 (Feb 14, 2004)

Logged outta facebook for the rest of today. 

Some jerk posted a HUGE spoiler about something that may or may not happen in tonight's ep. 

Makes me wish I was a kid again. Back then to unfriend someone you had to punch them in the nose.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Snappa77 said:


> Some jerk posted a HUGE spoiler about something that may or may not happen in tonight's ep.


I doubt it will happen.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Maisie Williams posted her comments on this episode on Vine.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think we're assuming anything about how these people sound. It's a choice that the creators of the TV show made, probably with the blessing of GRRM. They could have just as easily have chosen to make these people sound like they're from Jersey Shore, but would viewers have taken the show seriously? Even you say the thought of it makes you laugh hysterically. Do you think the show would be such a huge hit if the characters were presented as a mob parody in the middle ages rather than as a serious middle ages period piece?


And that's because we are conditioned that all stories with Knights and Kings and Queens have English accents (interestingly, Once Upon A Time with various prince's and queens and so forth, most of the characters have "American" accents...with a few exceptions, such as Rumple). The point, and yeah, this is hypothetical, is that this is a fictional land, in a fictional time...not necessarily the Middle Ages. So theoritically the accents could have been different. The writers and GRRM choice the English accent because that is what we would excpet for a show in what seems like the Middle Ages. What threw me, is realizng that GRRM is NOT English, and did not set the books in England, so really it's a preconceived notion that the accent is what he intended. Not complaining....it does seem right the way it is.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> And that's because we are conditioned that all stories with Knights and Kings and Queens have English accents (interestingly, Once Upon A Time with various prince's and queens and so forth, most of the characters have "American" accents...with a few exceptions, such as Rumple). The point, and yeah, this is hypothetical, is that this is a fictional land, in a fictional time...not necessarily the Middle Ages. So theoritically the accents could have been different. The writers and GRRM choice the English accent because that is what we would excpet for a show in what seems like the Middle Ages. What threw me, is realizng that GRRM is NOT English, and did not set the books in England, so really it's a preconceived notion that the accent is what he intended. Not complaining....it does seem right the way it is.


As I tell my friends at work, they don't have English/Scottish/badly attempted English accents.

They have Westorosi accents. That way you don't have to think about it, they just have those accents.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> As I tell my friends at work, they don't have English/Scottish/badly attempted English accents.
> 
> They have Westorosi accents. That way you don't have to think about it, they just have those accents.




I guess it's even MORE interesting that according to what folks are saying here, they made an attempt to correlate the accents with the portions of Britain they are attempting to portray.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I just watched this episode for the first time last night. I have binge watched the entire series over the course of the last couple weeks so I could be ready for Season 4. One of the main advantages of not being on Facebook or Twitter is that it is much easier to avoid spoilers. Going into this episode, I had literally no idea what was about to happen. I had never even heard the term "Red Wedding" before coming to this thread. I had assumed that the season was going to culminate in a great battle as Robb and his army attempted to take Casterly Rock. Boy was I wrong! That's some shocking television right there! 

I've seen a lot of discussion on this forum about whether or not it is better to read the books first. I have no doubt that the red wedding sequence would have been more powerful in the book due to the reader's stronger connection to the characters. Nevertheless, I'm really glad it was a complete surprise to me as I watched the show. In my opinion, it all depends on if you are a book person or a TV person. I am a TV person at heart. When done well, I find TV to be a more fulfilling medium than books. Therefore, I would never read the book until AFTER I have seen the show or movie. Since we are on a TiVo forum, I suspect many others are like me and wouldn't want to diminish the impact of the twists in the show by reading the book. If you are first and foremost a book person, however, it makes absolute sense to read them first.

At any rate, I am half an episode away from finishing the third season. It's a phenomenal show, and I'm glad that I'm caught up so that I can now partake in future discussions as they unfold.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

:up:


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I actually read about Red Wedding first, and was completely shocked by it. Not as much for emotional investment, but because the author lulled the reader into a false sense of security by not killing any significant character after Ned.

By the way I prefer to read first, this gives me a chance to imagine the characters and settings myself. Otherwise, I'm stuck with imagination of the production crew, and it affects how I read the books later. Less satisfying to me.


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

I'm late to the party. I bought seasons 1-6 on BluRay during Amazon Prime day. Just got to this episode and even having heard about the Red Wedding I didn't know exactly who was going to bite it. I can't imagine going in completely cold. That was intense.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Did you film your reaction while watching it? If you put it on YouTube, it might go viral!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

"Will you marry me?"

"What? I watch Game of Thrones! I know what happens at weddiings! WHY DO YOU HATE ME?!?"


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> "Will you marry me?"
> 
> "What? I watch Game of Thrones! I know what happens at weddiings! WHY DO YOU HATE ME?!?"





Spoiler: 7th season spoiler.



"How about a wine tasting party?"


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