# Directv Possibly going back to Tivo HD DVR



## raven540

I heard a very unsubstantiated rumor from someone who knows someone who works for TIVO. That is, that Directv may revisit its decision and go back to allowing a new TIVO based HD DVR that does MPEG 4. I want to believe this but my wanting it to be true does not make it so. Has anyone heard anything about this?


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## bonscott87

Uhhhh, no.


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## swizzlest

IMO, both Tivo and D* would be well served to reunite, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## Markman07

My uncles cousins brother half removed sister-in-law's pet squirrel said the same thing. I think he's nuts.


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## old7

Markman07 said:


> My uncles cousins brother half removed sister-in-law's pet squirrel said the same thing. I think he's nuts.


Thats funny, my second-cousin's best-friend's next-door neighbor's ex-wife has a pet squirrel that thinks just the opposite. And I know he's nuts.


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## broken back

I don't think *D* would go with a Tivo HD PVR, This would eat into all they have vested into with the HR20. People would dump the HR20's they had and *D* would take a great lose. They are getting close in the HR20 in having in stable and adding features.


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## Cruzan

broken back said:


> I don't think *D* would go with a Tivo HD PVR, This would eat into all they have vested into with the HR20. People would dump the HR20's they had and *D* would take a great lose. They are getting close in the HR20 in having in stable and adding features.


But they could allow Tivo to offer a DirecTV solution with a hardware partner. It's how they got started, and it would keep me with Directv.

Ron


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## bonscott87

Cruzan said:


> But they could allow Tivo to offer a DirecTV solution with a hardware partner. It's how they got started, and it would keep me with Directv.
> 
> Ron


Why? If the HR20 is stable and does what it's supposed to do why is Tivo the almighty answer?

Anyway, again, they aren't worried about you or a few thousand leaving. Not vs. the 16+ million customers they have, thousands added per day.


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## crashburn

I have been with DTV for a long long time. I have Tivo DTV and HD Tivo DTV. I am not so sure everyone that likes tivo leaving would be a good idea for DTV. I personally like Tivo A LOT. I probably will say kiss off DTV if they do not go back to tivo. I am sick of this changing every time the wind blows a different way. $$$$$$$$


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## rminsk

Markman07 said:


> My uncles cousins brother half removed sister-in-law's pet squirrel said the same thing. I think he's nuts.


That is the squirrel I've been hunting for... WHERE IS HE????


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## TonyD79

bonscott87 said:


> Why? If the HR20 is stable and does what it's supposed to do why is Tivo the almighty answer?


I'd say "Why not?"

If they let Tivo manage the machines and collect fees directly (or indirectly) they would simply have a choice for their customers.

As long as Tivo works with the data stream, why not?


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## Sir_winealot

bonscott87 said:


> Why? If the HR20 is stable and does what it's supposed to do why is Tivo the almighty answer?


_IF _ the HR20 ever does what it's supposed to do, then TiVo wouldn't be the answer IMO. But from what I've seen from the HR20 the first 6 months, that's a pretty darn big 'if.'

And although the R15 is made by NDS, it's still a D* product and the 'little brother' of the HR20 in a sense....and they've never worked the bugs outta that one.

So I'm not having much faith in the ability of D* to get the thing stable... but with the advent of MPEG2 HD being shut down soon, I'd _love _ to be wrong.


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## SullyND

There's always the possibility of DirecTV using the TiVo OS the way Comcast is and porting it to their hardware - or even charging over and above the base DVR fee.


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## mattn2

As soon as D* shuts down the MPEG2 stream for HD w/o a TiVo offering, I am gone as well. Loyal customer of D* since 1995. Loyal customer of TiVo since near beginning (still an S1 owner ... master of its own D* receiver). Where I am moving this summer, there is more cable HD offerings for about the same price, and I already have an S3.

# Matt


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## crashburn

Is DTV going to kill MPEG2? Will my Tivo even work or for that matter any of the HD boxes I have?


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## bonscott87

crashburn said:


> Is DTV going to kill MPEG2? Will my Tivo even work or for that matter any of the HD boxes I have?


Yes, been the plan for about 3 years now. But it's probably still about 2 years away from it happening. Depends how quickly they get MPEG4 boxes out there.

Your HR10 will still work just fine for SD recording and OTA HD.


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## TyroneShoes

bonscott87 said:


> Why? If the HR20 is stable and does what it's supposed to do why is Tivo the almighty answer?...


That it might be the almighty answer is not what is being said or even implied, but there are a great number of Tivo owners who are, shall we say, greatly underwhelmed by the HR20 and by all of the other non-Tivo DTV DVRs.

Stability is only a small part of the answer. I did not have a HR20 long enough to validate whether it was stable or not, or to have any clue as to whether it has improved of late. But, I knew pretty early on that it was exceptionally user-hostile compared even to DISH PVRs. Up against Tivo it was no contest, and I am hardly the only one who is convinced of that.

If you can't tell the difference between Absolut and Grey Goose, you might as well be guzzling the $3.99 Vodka available at the drugstore. It also "does what it's supposed to do".


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## rminsk

bonscott87 said:


> Why? If the HR20 is stable and does what it's supposed to do why is Tivo the almighty answer?


I just need a DVR that can reliably record and playback TV. I do not need any file sharing, music playing, ... My minimum standard is a product that will do basic DVR functions (season passes, wishlists, manual records), record programs reliably without any maintence (manual reset, manually fixing upcoming recordings, ...), and be up for at least 30 days without rebooting. I do not think this standard is unreasonable for any consumer product. It is pretty amazing how few DVR meet this minimum standard. I guess I have been spoiled by my DirecTiVos. It seems that people now accept machines that have to be reset or constantly watched to make work. It is the attitude that "computers need rebooting once in a while".

The HR20 has come a long way but it is still not getting to my minimum standard. When/if the HR20 makes it to that point then I will glady use it but until then I will welcome any competitor product that meets my standard.


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## TyroneShoes

rminsk said:


> I'm just need a DVR that can reliably record and playback TV. I do not need any file sharing, music playing, ... My minimum standard is a product that will do basic DVR functions (season passes, wishlists, manual records), record programs reliably without any maintence (manual reset, manually fixing upcoming recordings, ...), and be up for at least 30 days without rebooting. I do not think this standard is unreasonible for any consumer product. It is pretty amazing how few DVR meet this minimum standard...


I agree heartily that this should be the minimum standard. And if we are talking HD, I can only think of one PVR that meets it. Everything else seems to be running a very distant second.


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## gquiring

Audio dropouts, black screens, the season pass problem and reboots. Why do most folks think Tivo is so great?


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## terpfan1980

gquiring said:


> Audio dropouts, black screens, the season pass problem and reboots. Why do most folks think Tivo is so great?


And who really caused those problems?

bzzzzt! if you said TiVo, you answered incorrectly.

TiVo works fine if they don't have problems shoved at them due to changes made by DirecTV.


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## berth

Hello all,

With the exception of the audio dropouts and an internal cable replacement, my original HDTivo has performed very well.

My guess is that MOST of the HDTIVO owners are pretty happy with their machines.

Right now my plan is to go to Verizon fiber and a Series 3 when they get it in my neighborhood. If Directv has some definitive plans for TIVO they should announce them ASAP. Then we can debate how credible their delivery dates are... Otherwise, there will be a $799 obstacle in my way back to Directv.

HDTIVO early adopter #31

regards, bert


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## wilbur_the_goose

Remember, DirecTV doesn't 'own' NDS since Liberty took over. That could be a HUGE factor for TiVo.

Post NewsCorp, D*'s relationship with NDS is the same as it was with TiVo.

(FYI - D* has changed compression before, when they went from MPEG-1 to MPEG-2 a LONG time ago)


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## rminsk

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Remember, DirecTV doesn't 'own' NDS since Liberty took over. That could be a HUGE factor for TiVo.


Liberty has not taken over DirecTV yet...


> (FYI - D* has changed compression before, when they went from MPEG-1 to MPEG-2 a LONG time ago)


But back then when they went from what they were calling mpeg-1.5 to mpeg-2 that current boxes supported mpeg-2. None of the boxes had to be upgraded.


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## rminsk

gquiring said:


> Audio dropouts, black screens, the season pass problem and reboots. Why do most folks think Tivo is so great?


Besides 6.3a which was fixed fairly quickly with 6.3b and DirecTV changing the guide data my DirecTiVo has meet my minimum standard. Mine does not reboot, have season pass problems, black screens, or audio problems.


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## samo

> Right now my plan is to go to Verizon fiber and a Series 3 when they get it in my neighborhood


You do know that TiVo officially does not support FIOS on S3? It does work for most users, but should you have any problems you will not have any support from TiVO.


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## Budget_HT

rminsk said:


> I just need a DVR that can reliably record and playback TV. I do not need any file sharing, music playing, ... My minimum standard is a product that will do basic DVR functions (season passes, wishlists, manual records), record programs reliably without any maintence (manual reset, manually fixing upcoming recordings, ...), and be up for at least 30 days without rebooting. I do not think this standard is unreasonable for any consumer product. It is pretty amazing how few DVR meet this minimum standard. I guess I have been spoiled by my DirecTiVos. It seems that people now accept machines that have to be reset or constantly watched to make work. It is the attitude that "computers need rebooting once in a while".
> 
> The HR20 has come a long way but it is still not getting to my minimum standard. When/if the HR20 makes it to that point then I will glady use it but until then I will welcome any competitor product that meets my standard.


Some parts of your minimum standards may be exclusive to TiVo based on their patents. The WishList area seems to be one that other DVR developers have stayed away from, either because of its complexity or some possible patent issues. Either way, no one else comes even close.

BTW, I totally agree with you on the minimum requirements. The bar has been set. To get my business, someone will have to meet or exceed ...


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## MichaelK

broken back said:


> ....This would eat into all they have vested into with the HR20. People would dump the HR20's they had and *D* would take a great lose. ....


"sunk costs" are never a good business reason to do anything (well probably not personally either- I had a friend once who didn't really seem to enjoy his Fiance. I asked him why the hell he was getting married and he told me "Becasue I've invested so much time in the relationship already"- I tried to talk him out of it to no avail. When she moved out 3 months after the marriage and cleaned out their house I did loan him an old Tivo- LOL....)

That said- I think probably the proper "business" decision was to kill off the relationship with tivo. Even as a buck each it was 3or 4 million a month 30 million or more a year. I can see why they bailed. They can get a DVR that is "good enough" withoug having to pay tivo.


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## rminsk

Budget_HT said:


> The WishList area seems to be one that other DVR developers have stayed away from, either because of its complexity or some possible patent issues.


Wishlists are I guess a little to specific. I guess something like autorecord on the HR20.


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## bonscott87

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Remember, DirecTV doesn't 'own' NDS since Liberty took over. That could be a HUGE factor for TiVo.
> 
> Post NewsCorp, D*'s relationship with NDS is the same as it was with TiVo.
> 
> (FYI - D* has changed compression before, when they went from MPEG-1 to MPEG-2 a LONG time ago)


Remember that the HR20 is *not* based on NDS or done by them. It's in house to DirecTV.

The R15 was NDS and I think we all agree it's a pile. I'd bet you'll see an "R20" at some point, a standard def DVR based off the HR20 code with a dumping of the R15 to the scrap heap.


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## TyroneShoes

gquiring said:


> Audio dropouts, black screens, the season pass problem and reboots. Why do most folks think Tivo is so great?


Because the vast majority of Tivos do not experience any of this to the level of it being an issue. That's why.

All computers need a reboot once in a while, even UNIX and the mighty Mac OS. Tivo typicaly reboots on its own or needs a reboot about once for every dozen times every other PVR (of 10) that I have ever owned needed it. I see a spontaneous reboot or find a need to reboot Tivo little more than about once a year.

The audio dropouts are confined to 6.3B (and specifically to DD broadcasts), which only the tiniest fraction of Tivos have resident, and all of which will go away within the week if you allow 6.3c, making that complaint completely moot.

Most SP problems were due to corrupted data in the EPG, and were a single incident a month ago, and something only seen once in every other blue moon. Any Tivo owner who understands general preventative maintenance removes old SPs when a season ends and renews them at the start of new seasons, which eliminates all other SP problems.

Even Tivo is not perfect, so let's not pretend anyone is assuming that. Since there is no perfect PVR, what we are left with for dicussion is COMPARITIVE standing. From that point of view, anyone touting anything out there or on the horizon as any kind of Tivo-killer, or who thinks any competitor even weakly measures up to the gold standard set by Tivo, is dangerously deluded.

If you want to compare laundry lists of DVR issues, you had better buckle up because it's going to be a bumpy ride, and possibly the longest post you have ever seen. But since I have a life I will spare you that. Never bring a knife to a gun fight.


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## bidger

TyroneShoes said:


> Even Tivo is not perfect, so let's not pretend anyone is assuming that.


Oh, I've seen the term "flawless" used by TFBs when describing TiVo. Glad you're more level-headed than that.


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## jimbra

TyroneShoes said:


> Never bring a knife to a gun fight.


And never bring a wife to bed when her favorite show she is watching re-boots when she's PMS'ing, trust me it happened. She complained till the sun rose the next morning.

"Run for it, she's PMS'ing"


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## Mark Lopez

Sir_winealot said:


> _IF _ the HR20 ever does what it's supposed to do, then TiVo wouldn't be the answer IMO. But from what I've seen from the HR20 the first 6 months, that's a pretty darn big 'if.'


lol. It's been over 7 years since Tivos have been out and they still have bugs. The HR20 is a heck of a lot farther along than Tivo was at 6 month.


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## Gunnyman

Markman07 said:


> My uncles cousins brother half removed sister-in-law's pet squirrel said the same thing. I think he's nuts.


But did he see Ferris passed out at 31 flavors last night?


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## sjberra

bdowell said:


> And who really caused those problems?
> 
> bzzzzt! if you said TiVo, you answered incorrectly.
> 
> TiVo works fine if they don't have problems shoved at them due to changes made by DirecTV.


hmm.. TIVO software, TIVO programmers......


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## gquiring

TyroneShoes said:


> Because the vast majority of Tivos do not experience any of this to the level of it being an issue. That's why.
> 
> All computers need a reboot once in a while, even UNIX and the mighty Mac OS. Tivo typicaly reboots on its own or needs a reboot about once for every dozen times every other PVR (of 10) that I have ever owned needed it. I see a spontaneous reboot or find a need to reboot Tivo little more than about once a year..


Really? My Solaris 9 server uptime is 2 years, 3 months... My Red Hat server 1 year 8 months, my other RH server 3+ years..., my Tivo at best 2 weeks since 6.x update.



TyroneShoes said:


> The audio dropouts are confined to 6.3B (and specifically to DD broadcasts), which only the tiniest fraction of Tivos have resident, and all of which will go away within the week if you allow 6.3c, making that complaint completely moot.


That is not the case. Read the threads more closely, 6.x HAS audio dropouts. Including mine.



TyroneShoes said:


> Most SP problems were due to corrupted data in the EPG, and were a single incident a month ago, and something only seen once in every other blue moon. Any Tivo owner who understands general preventative maintenance removes old SPs when a season ends and renews them at the start of new seasons, which eliminates all other SP problems.


Single incident yes, excusable no. It shows that Tivo has a piss poor Q&A team. And it was no once in a blue moon and removing season passed did not fix all of the issues. " Preventative maintenance on your SP's"? - that's a good one 

What about the busted HDMI card in the early HR10's? I would assume you have an excuse for that problem also.

The Tivo is ok stuff but I just don't agree with all these it it's not a Tivo I won't use it. Give me more HD and I will drop my Tivo in a heart beat as long as the new DVR has dual tuners. I am tired of constant audio drop outs and those half baked black/green screens on ABC-NY HD.


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## herdfan

broken back said:


> I don't think *D* would go with a Tivo HD PVR, This would eat into all they have vested into with the HR20.


Keep in mind there are now two different "Theys". There was the Newscorp group led my Rupert Murdoch who masterminded this whole idea of a one STB world where the STB was going to be the hub of everything from TV to dating. RM was a media guy.

The new "they" is John Malone. Although he has owned cable companies and current owns channels such as Starz, he is not a media guy. He is a money guy. Unless he sees value in the one STB connected world, he will do what makes more sense financially. So if it cheaper or more efficient to pay TiVo a $ a month and let them spend their R&D vs. doing it in house, then there is a chance it could happen.

RM saw the value he could create with the one STB world, because he owned or controlled or would develop other content. And he wanted to throw business to his NDS subsidiary. Malone doesn't have those constraints, so he can do what he thinks will put the most money in his pocket.

With that said, I think the HR20, at least mine, is stable enough. Its not granite rock solid, but is somewhere in the vicinity of shale and getting better.


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## FourFourSeven

Well, if DTV DOES keep Tivo (obviously a huge if), they'll keep me. Otherwise, aAs soon as Comcast offers their DVR with Tivo software, I'm switching. It's not because I'm a Tivo Fanboy - it's because I (and my family) have tried out all three HD DVRs (HR 10-250, DTV's in-house solution, and Comcast's box with the current software), and the only one the kids can easily use and the wife doesn't reject is the Tivo interface.


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## Citivas

bonscott87 said:


> Why? If the HR20 is stable and does what it's supposed to do why is Tivo the almighty answer?
> 
> Anyway, again, they aren't worried about you or a few thousand leaving. Not vs. the 16+ million customers they have, thousands added per day.


Yeah, but those are hypothetical "if's" since the HR20 is NOT stable and does NOT do what it is supposed to, at least as of yet. As of now, it still fails to successfully record 40% of my series links, which makes it 0% reliable as a DRV, its primary purpose. DirecTV tells me this is still a known software issue and that all I can do is wait -- as we have been for months on end.


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## samo

Citivas said:


> Yeah, but those are hypothetical "if's" since the HR20 is NOT stable and does NOT do what it is supposed to, at least as of yet. As of now, it still fails to successfully record 40% of my series links, which makes it 0% reliable as a DRV, its primary purpose. DirecTV tells me this is still a known software issue and that all I can do is wait -- as we have been for months on end.


Not that I doubt your statement, but what series links it fails to record? I haven't missed any recordings for a long time. Since guide data, hardware and software should be exactly the same for both of us, the only difference is a recording pattern. I'm just curious if we have the same series links that record reliably on my machine that don't record on yours.


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## SullyND

samo said:


> You do know that TiVo officially does not support FIOS on S3? It does work for most users, but should you have any problems you will not have any support from TiVO.


You do know that that is not 100% true. FIOS is not officially supported, but TiVoJerry has been trying to help those who have had issues. To say "you will not have any support from TIVO" is untrue and unfair.


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## bonscott87

Citivas said:


> Yeah, but those are hypothetical "if's" since the HR20 is NOT stable and does NOT do what it is supposed to, at least as of yet. As of now, it still fails to successfully record 40% of my series links, which makes it 0% reliable as a DRV, its primary purpose. DirecTV tells me this is still a known software issue and that all I can do is wait -- as we have been for months on end.


Sure they are ifs. But the past couple software releases have highly stabilized the HR20 and posts of major problems are way down. Yes, there are some like yourself with problems still and the stabilization will continue until they can get rid of as much of that as they can. By the way, stop over the DBSTalk and post a real detailed account of the problem you are still having. DirecTV does look at all those posts, in particular the issues thread.

Given the current state and direction I think it's pretty much a lock that 6 months from now if not sooner it will be very stable for the vast majority. The next 6 months is really the key for the HR20. If it's stable and rocking and rolling in 6 months then Malone has no reason to look elsewhere. If it does take a crap well he then has good reason to look at other alternative including Tivo and whatever else is out there. Besides, Malone probably won't do much of anything since he's looking to turn DirecTV around to someone else like AT&T and just take the profit.


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## samo

SullyND said:


> You do know that that is not 100% true. FIOS is not officially supported, but TiVoJerry has been trying to help those who have had issues. To say "you will not have any support from TIVO" is untrue and unfair.


True. TiVoJerry has been trying to help members of this board on one to one basis. But if you call TiVo you will get zero support. And TiVoJerry can not perform miracles either. There are plenty of posts from people who have problems with FIOS that haven't been addressed by latest update. TiVoPony answer was very clear - update may or may not fix your problem, TiVo does not support FIOS.


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## Bonanzaair

bonscott87 said:


> If it's stable and rocking and rolling in 6 months then Malone has no reason to look elsewhere. If it does take a crap well he then has good reason


The best reason would be CUSTOMER SERVICE! You have a number of customers that have requested the Tivo interface. CUSTOMER SERVICE - just like at the grocery store, the department store, the gas station, etc. If you can give the customer what they want they are yours forever.

Anything else is secondary!

Bonanza


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## MichaelK

Bonanzaair said:


> The best reason would be CUSTOMER SERVICE! You have a number of customers that have requested the Tivo interface. CUSTOMER SERVICE - just like at the grocery store, the department store, the gas station, etc. If you can give the customer what they want they are yours forever.
> 
> Anything else is secondary!
> 
> Bonanza


true- but the question is how much more does it cost to have tivo and then how many subs will really leave over it. It could be that you save 30 million bucks a year and only lose 10,000 subs. If that is the case then you would have 3,000 per lost sub and since new subs cost around 6-700 it's worth it. If on the other hand you save 30 million but lose 100,000 subs then you only have 300 a sub to get those people back and there is somethign to think about.

The customer is always right- except when it comes to money- LOL!

Directv seems to be in the business of "good enough" right now. Their SD PQ is "good enough" compared to cable where as before it was far superior. Their pricing that used to be much mich cheaper is now "good enough"- just a bit cheaper then cable in many cases. Their HD PQ and channel list is "good enough" compared to DISH for nationals or Cable for locals. They seem to be content to not be such a market leader anymore but just get by with what most people will find to be "good enough".

One out in left feild thing is the law that requires availibility of retail for set top boxes for multi channel pay tv providers. The law that has led cable to have cabelcards. Directv got exempted some time ago because consumers could walk into sotres and buy differnt brands of boxes with differnt feature sets and then use that box anywhere in the us to get Directv. Well you can still buy a box that works anywhere. But you cant's buy different brands. And directv has decided to make a single UI so the feature sets are not varied. I wonder if at some point cable doesn't point that out to the FCC when they are spending tens of millions a year to deal with cablecard in all their boxes while directv goes scot free. I think its a long shot that it amounts to anything but i do wonder if one day they dont get forced to allow third parties to build devices again like they used to with sony and phillips, and toshiba, and rca, etc.


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## dirk1843

I never understood (except for pure greed) why change something that works so well. I did not own as many TiVos as some did here, but I got started with a Phillips 20 hour that worked fine when hooked to D* STB. I wanted 2 tuners and Dolby Digital, so later I got and HDVR2. That HOOKED me. I will never think of a PVR the same again. It worked so well I would say flawlessly (not a fanboy, but I can't remember a problem). This was great until I wanted to timeshift HD, then I got an HR10-250. Once again no problems. Never used HDMI or upgraded to 6.whatever but just rock solid recording.

I dropped D* this year.......and sold my HR10-250. Their footdraging of new HD, and the constant lowering of SD and HD PQ was a major factor in this. I will never go back to D* with the PVR they have in the current form. I have thought of E*, due to the fact of no upfront costs and the Voom channels.

For now, I am staying with very bad cable...........grainy picture and no stereo sound, but no contract and much cheaper. I am getting ready to order a Series2 DT and once again be TiVo'ing my little heart out.

Pure greed in seeing that extra 5 spot a month caused Rupert Murdoch to split THE best deal in the business. Had TiVo been with Voom, they would still be in business.....perhaps they would have even bought D* or E*.


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## Citivas

samo said:


> Not that I doubt your statement, but what series links it fails to record? I haven't missed any recordings for a long time. Since guide data, hardware and software should be exactly the same for both of us, the only difference is a recording pattern. I'm just curious if we have the same series links that record reliably on my machine that don't record on yours.


The problem has never manifest itself consistently from machine to machine which has been the biggest fiel for the whole debate over its stabilty from the start and probably what is so frustrating DirecTV in its efforts to fix it.

When I say 40% don't record successfully, that doesn't mean 40$ never record. I am combining the stats for the shows that don't record right in the first place -- which varies over time -- with the recordings that are useless because of the Black Screen bug that continues to corrupt some recordings until the system is reset -- a process that is still necessary every few days.

Among the shows that sometimes fail to record -- or for that matter even show up as recordable if reviewed in advance -- have been the various Law and Orde series, Survivor, Little Einsteins, etc. All across the board. You can manually look on the guide and see a show there but then go to the scheduler and it will say there are no scheduled recordings -- and yes this is the exact same version of a channel, etc. Then next week it will work. Then the next it won't. It's just not reliable at all... Meanwhile, all these shows record fine on the 10-250...

The remote is annoying too. Often it takes hitting a key like the pause 5 times to get it to work, then other times it automtically double assumes a single hit, which often means getting the wrong channel or having the 30 second skip overshoot, etc. It is supposed to be in RF mode too, but this seems pretty dubious...

Look, I have nothing inherently against the product. All I can say is it isn't reliable for me yet and if this was a fluke of my machine, you would think DirecTV would just replcae it rather than tell me still that it is a known software issue...


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## TyroneShoes

gquiring said:


> ...I would assume you have an excuse for that problem also...


You posted a question, and I apparently misconstrued that as an invitation to post an answer. But asking questions in postings is pretty much a wasted exercise if you are unable to weigh the answers posted back with any sort of an open mind.

I can very honestly sympathize with your position as a person who has experienced a lot of problems with your particular situation and are therefore not really properly conditioned to hear that your experience might be outside the norm and that you may just be one of the unlucky ones, but just because you don't agree with an answer or that it is not the answer you were trolling for is no reason to characterize that answer as an "excuse". If you really paid attention to the posts on this forum you would realize that in my case, at least, there is a long history of very little being put forward that could be fairly characterised as such, and I resent the implication vigorously.

I am not a cheerleader or a fanboy. While certainly not comprehensive and partly anecdotal, my answer, which I stand by 100%, was based on extensive experience and understanding of both the facts at hand and the questions surrounding them, as well as on a long history of closely following the issues. My answer was not based on what I might want to believe or on the last individual piece of information I might have heard or read somewhere. This is not my first barbeque.

You are quite obviously not looking for honest answers but are instead looking for only validation of your somewhat singular position that Tivo sucks, but I'm afraid that looking for that here or pretty much anywhere else is always going to be a fool's errand. So good luck with that, and good luck with your new DVR.


----------



## Citivas

bonscott87 said:


> Sure they are ifs. But the past couple software releases have highly stabilized the HR20 and posts of major problems are way down. Yes, there are some like yourself with problems still and the stabilization will continue until they can get rid of as much of that as they can. By the way, stop over the DBSTalk and post a real detailed account of the problem you are still having. DirecTV does look at all those posts, in particular the issues thread.
> 
> Given the current state and direction I think it's pretty much a lock that 6 months from now if not sooner it will be very stable for the vast majority. The next 6 months is really the key for the HR20. If it's stable and rocking and rolling in 6 months then Malone has no reason to look elsewhere. If it does take a crap well he then has good reason to look at other alternative including Tivo and whatever else is out there. Besides, Malone probably won't do much of anything since he's looking to turn DirecTV around to someone else like AT&T and just take the profit.


I am and have been at DBSTalk as often as here in the last 4 months so I have followed the posts. I don't agree things have gotten better. I just think people like myself have gotten tired of posting and have a bunch of people jump in to defend the box as the greatest thing since sliced bread. The problems are the same as we posted months ago, so what is the point in being repetitive.

I agree -- or certainly hope -- that it is stable within 6 months. But keep in mind that would be a year after its release which is an awfully long time to have a product on the market that people are paying for before it is basically usable -- and since the point of a DVR is to reliably record shows I don't consider it basically usable until I can be reasonably confident it will most of the time... In the meantime, I am atually having to pay directv every month to be a beta tester when I didn't even sign up to be a beta tester. They should pay me.

Again, I repeat my mantra -- if directv really believes they have solved the major issues for a vast majority of the boxes, why not swap mine out instead of continuing to report that I have to be patient while they work on "known software issues"? It just doesn't ring true that they would do this if they didn't know they still had a widespread issue and believed they would be wasting their money sending a new box.


----------



## TyroneShoes

Citivas said:


> ...I agree -- or certainly hope -- that it is stable within 6 months. But keep in mind that would be a year after its release which is an awfully long time to have a product on the market that people are paying for before it is basically usable -- and since the point of a DVR is to reliably record shows I don't consider it basically usable until I can be reasonably confident it will most of the time... In the meantime, I am atually having to pay directv every month to be a beta tester when I didn't even sign up to be a beta tester. They should pay me...


I really and honestly hope so, too. I don't want to be hung out to dry in 2010 with the only viable, friendly, and stable yet aging HD PVR platform. I want options, and I welcome a Tivo-killer. But then Christians have waited 2000 years for the Big Guy to come back to earth, too.

But I disagree that the HR20 will ever be the answer. My skepticism is based on what is the typical history of technology that doesn't work well at v1.0 vs. technology that does work well right out of the box. Historically, upgradable technology that ships before it ever works well rarely ever improves all that much and is usually unstable, while upgradable technology that works well from the git-go is typically stable and typically improves incrementally through its lifetime.

In this case, based on that, I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## MichaelK

dirk1843 said:


> I never understood (except for pure greed) why change something that works so well. I did not own as many TiVos as some did here, but I got started with a Phillips 20 hour that worked fine when hooked to D* STB. I wanted 2 tuners and Dolby Digital, so later I got and HDVR2. That HOOKED me. I will never think of a PVR the same again. It worked so well I would say flawlessly (not a fanboy, but I can't remember a problem). This was great until I wanted to timeshift HD, then I got an HR10-250. Once again no problems. Never used HDMI or upgraded to 6.whatever but just rock solid recording.
> 
> I dropped D* this year.......and sold my HR10-250. Their footdraging of new HD, and the constant lowering of SD and HD PQ was a major factor in this. I will never go back to D* with the PVR they have in the current form. I have thought of E*, due to the fact of no upfront costs and the Voom channels.
> 
> For now, I am staying with very bad cable...........grainy picture and no stereo sound, but no contract and much cheaper. I am getting ready to order a Series2 DT and once again be TiVo'ing my little heart out.
> 
> Pure greed in seeing that extra 5 spot a month caused Rupert Murdoch to split THE best deal in the business. Had TiVo been with Voom, they would still be in business.....perhaps they would have even bought D* or E*.


What you are defining as greed is called maximizing profits or cost cutting at big corporations.

Why does Directv raise their rates every year now like cable? Their costs per sub go down every quarter as they add more subs- just read their SEC filings it's clear as day. If they sat on their rates then their profit per sub would still rise all by itself. But why wait for the profit to come to you when you can jack your rates 4-5 % each year and TAKE the profit from your sub's wallets?

I think the decision was dumb and I left directv becasue of it- I sold my HR10 and bought an S3 and have cable now. But unfortunalty I see the economics of it. Even at a buck a box, the fee to tivo is a 30 or 40 million line item each year and constanly was growing- that's a big cherry to pick stairing the bean counters in the face.


----------



## fwebb

I have been a DirecTV customer since they came online Oct 94 and have seen many changes and IMO the best being the advent of DirecTivo, I have consistently owned 2 since their inception and pleased overall with its functionality. A little over a year ago I decided to upgrade my older DirecTivo prompted by a great offer from DTV, unfortunately they sent me an R15, no need to go into detail here we all know the problems plaguing that piece of junk. After several calls, and threats they finally sent me an R10 and all is well. I would love to upgrade to an HD DVR but it would appear that DTV hasnt been able to get that right either. IMHO folks, why should we be forced to accept an inferior product when there is a product with a proven technology available. I for one dont like having to pay a premium to be a beta tester; they should have came a little closer to a functioning product before pulling the plug on Tivo.


----------



## Markman07

So just so I can understand all of this, if they drop tivo they save X bucks. But if support costs (support staff, unit repairs & replacments) go up because of all the issues with their own boxes then how much are they really saving from dropping Tivo? This all under the assumption that Tivo was more stable and support costs would be lower. Oh and you also have to pay your own programmers to do all of this programming. That has to add up also. So in summary are they still saving so much more which in turn allows them to make so much more profit even though of the new issues that arose with going with their own DVR? (I guess then it must not be otherwise why would they have gone this route?)


----------



## dirk1843

MichaelK said:


> What you are defining as greed is called maximizing profits or cost cutting at big corporations.
> 
> Why does Directv raise their rates every year now like cable? Their costs per sub go down every quarter as they add more subs- just read their SEC filings it's clear as day. If they sat on their rates then their profit per sub would still rise all by itself. But why wait for the profit to come to you when you can jack your rates 4-5 % each year and TAKE the profit from your sub's wallets?
> 
> I think the decision was dumb and I left directv becasue of it- I sold my HR10 and bought an S3 and have cable now. But unfortunalty I see the economics of it. Even at a buck a box, the fee to tivo is a 30 or 40 million line item each year and constanly was growing- that's a big cherry to pick stairing the bean counters in the face.


No doubt that it was good economics, but IMHO that is downfall of customer service and quality almost everytime. So yes, perhaps greed is too negative sounding a description, but as you said you and others have left D* because of it.


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## Deacon West

samo said:


> And TiVoJerry can not perform miracles either.


No, but he seems to be quite adept at solving problems, a fact which is quite miraculous when compared with what you get with most of D* 's staff.


----------



## herdfan

Markman07 said:


> So just so I can understand all of this, if they drop tivo they save X bucks.


It wasn't just about saving the money. It was about RM's vision of a STB that could open many other revenue streams. Things the TiVo boxes either couldn't do or TiVo wouldn't allow them to do. So RM who conveniently owned NDS went his own way.

But with RM leaving the picture, who knows what JM will do.


----------



## sjberra

Citivas said:


> Yeah, but those are hypothetical "if's" since the HR20 is NOT stable and does NOT do what it is supposed to, at least as of yet. As of now, it still fails to successfully record 40% of my series links, which makes it 0% reliable as a DRV, its primary purpose. DirecTV tells me this is still a known software issue and that all I can do is wait -- as we have been for months on end.


Neither is the HR10 - pure SDT at the moment


----------



## jgjackson

It's quite simple really. I wanted an HD TiVo, went to Best Buy, bought one, and it came with DirecTV service, so that is what I went with. When it dies/no longer works, I'll still want an HD TiVo, so I'll go to Best Buy, buy one (S3) and hook it up to to whatever service (Cable) that lets me. I'm a TiVo customer first, and a DirecTV customer only by default.


----------



## Cudahy

Maybe Malone personally has a Tivo. If he does he may at least want to offer Directv customers the option. They could charge extra(Tivo lovers would pay it). He would actually be making more money(his main objective).


----------



## cheer

Cudahy said:


> Maybe Malone personally has a Tivo. If he does he may at least want to offer Directv customers the option. They could charge extra(Tivo lovers would pay it). He would actually be making more money(his main objective).


If you're looking for significant improvement under Malone, you're wearing rose-colored glasses. John Malone ran TCI until he managed to hoodwink AT&T into acquiring it, and it was a mess.

The term "blowhard" is thrown around all too often these days...


----------



## Cmmsh

gquiring said:


> Really? My Solaris 9 server uptime is 2 years, 3 months... My Red Hat server 1 year 8 months, my other RH server 3+ years..., my Tivo at best 2 weeks since 6.x update.


I have had my HR10-250 since June, and I haven't had to reboot once. I have, on the other hand, had to reboot BOTH of my DirecTV DVRs at least 10 times each over that time span. The day I can't use my TiVo is the day D* loses a customer. (I know they don't care.)


----------



## bonscott87

Cudahy said:


> Maybe Malone personally has a Tivo. If he does he may at least want to offer Directv customers the option. They could charge extra(Tivo lovers would pay it). He would actually be making more money(his main objective).


Yea, as posted above Malone ran the worst cable company to ever grace this planet, TCI, by alienating his customers, refusing to spend any money to upgrade the systems and pretty much running it into the ground.

I keep seeing people posting about how Malone is the great saviour and just laugh. 

Thing is, Malone has already stated he is already looking for a buyer for DirecTV, to "turn" it. He'll most likely only keep DirecTV long enough to keep the tax breaks and then will unload it. If he decided to make a change day 1 in reguards to a new receiver by the time the first one made it off the production line he'll probably no longer own the company.

Again, there is no huge outcry that there is no Tivo and they aren't shedding customers like crazy. There is no reason why he'd even consider Tivo unless the HR20 is a complete failure. It's already very stable with the last couple software updates and keeps getting better. So unless they implode in the next 6 months Tivo just isn't going to happen.


----------



## MichaelK

bonscott87 said:


> ...
> 
> Thing is, Malone has already stated he is already looking for a buyer for DirecTV, to "turn" it. He'll most likely only keep DirecTV long enough to keep the tax breaks and then will unload it. ....


has HE ever said that himself- all I've seen is a bunch of analysts speculating?

One analyst said he was likely to buy up content like rsn's and rainbow/voom and then sell the pacakage to versizon or comcast or ATT so they could get the content package. That's totally stupid- if ATT or Verizon or Comcast wants content they could just buy rainbow or rsn's themselves- why wait for directv to buy it up and create a big conglomerate with content and a delviery system? Why would any of them want a satellite system to go along with the content which would duplicate their own wired video efforts in much of the country. I think it's just some ananlysts talkign out their butts.


----------



## Sir_winealot

Citivas said:


> I am and have been at DBSTalk as often as here in the last 4 months so I have followed the posts. I don't agree things have gotten better. I just think people like myself have gotten tired of posting and have a bunch of people jump in to defend the box as the greatest thing since sliced bread. The problems are the same as we posted months ago, so what is the point in being repetitive.


+1.

If you post at DBS about HR20 problems, a _horde_ of "mine works great" D* apologisits land squarely on your head, so continually posting your problems is a lesson in futility.

Certainly it _gets_ to them, but there is no real degree of empathy, that's for sure. Threads subsequently get into a heated debate and then closed, so that much of the negativity is not visible.


----------



## ebonovic

Sir_winealot said:


> +1.
> 
> If you post at DBS about HR20 problems, a _horde_ of "mine works great" D* apologisits land squarely on your head, so continually posting your problems is a lesson in futility.
> 
> Certainly it _gets_ to them, but there is no real degree of empathy, that's for sure. Threads subsequently get into a heated debate and then closed, so that much of the negativity is not visible.


While there are some cases like that...
The VAST majority of when you see the "hordes" is when their are claims that it is a POS or they are never going to get it fixed.... Which brings out the "mine works great".

Just like when someone says they have an issue... and people reply, well the TiVo never had that problem...

And it is not like it doesn't happen here either... Just like when people started to post issues with 6.3... you saw the posts... "works fine here", ect...

And yes... I have *ACTIVELY* asked anyone and everyone to post their issues with the unit... even if they have reported it before... after each release.


----------



## Billy66

Mine works great.  But +1 to the good Sir Whinealot.

Frustrated problem posts are taken as attacks and then the issue never really gets discussed very well. We see that here too. It's too bad because everyone just wants to build a knowledge base upon which we all can benefit.

There seems to be an emotional connection to everyone's individual choice (whether there or here), that keeps us from getting that done very well.

I like that box, that is known, but experiences like SWA's and Citivas' exist and do not come with a repeatable explanation. That worries me and prevents me from being able to reccomend someone pay for it.


----------



## askewed

DirecTV looses us when our HD TiVos give out if they don't go back to TiVo. I'll get FIOS.


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## Billy66

TiVo does not support Fios.


----------



## MichaelK

ebonovic said:


> While there are some cases like that...
> The VAST majority of when you see the "hordes" is when their are claims that it is a POS or they are never going to get it fixed.... Which brings out the "mine works great".
> 
> Just like when someone says they have an issue... and people reply, well the TiVo never had that problem...
> 
> And it is not like it doesn't happen here either... Just like when people started to post issues with 6.3... you saw the posts... "works fine here", ect...
> 
> And yes... I have *ACTIVELY* asked anyone and everyone to post their issues with the unit... even if they have reported it before... after each release.


tivocommunity- it's like crack- huh? You cant keep away can you?!? LOL

Nice to see you pop up again, I thought you were gone for good.


----------



## keefer37

Our household is echoing a lot of what others have posted. I started with a standalone Sony SVR-2000 6 years back or so.. we switched to DirecTV after being tired of the poor quality and service of Time Warner. The bonuses of going to DirecTV were able to get the Sunday Ticket and dual tuner DirecTiVos! 

Two years back, we got our HDirecTiVo and have been very happy with it overall.

Now, we're not feeling we're getting our money's worth out of Sunday Ticket and are basically waiting for our commitment to end and the MPEG-2 HD streams to be dropped. While it pains us to do it, we'll be leaving DirecTV mainly because of their lack of commitment to TiVo, especially in the HD realm. I'm a TiVo fan, but not a fanboy.. somewhere in between.  If a new MPEG-4 DirecTiVo were offered, we'd probably stick around...


----------



## MichaelK

Billy66 said:


> TiVo does not support Fios.


not officially.

unoffically they seem to try and help people as best they can.

Also, at worst they "unsupport" it like they did years ago for broadband. It worked fine for the vast majority but if you did have a problem and called in they would give you the party unsupported line. (which if you are one of the few with a problem is a major problem for sure)

And for those that are not aware- it's basically the FCC's fault. Tivo complies with the cablecard standard. Verizon FIOS attempts to mimic cable card (and since moto is apparently their headend provider it's not a big stretch)- but since the FCC permitted cablelabs to create the standards and cablelabs wont let a phone company like verizon be join, verizon is out in the dark. So if verizon does something outside of the cablelabs specs then Tivo may not be able to tweak their system to handle it. Had the FCC grown a pair years back and decided to make ANSI or IEEE or some other 3rd party the standard creator then maybe we would have a single system today that actually worked, was 2-way, and that everyone could build to: cable, telco, maybe even DBS. ...


----------



## Sir_winealot

Billy66 said:


> There seems to be an emotional connection to everyone's individual choice (whether there or here), that keeps us from getting that done very well.


That's what I just don't understand, the emotional connection thing. I've seen some really heated stuff (in both forums) ...albeit more recently over there ...where people get downright nasty in defense of the thing.

I see plenty of excuses too, "_well TiVo has also had its problems."_

Who cares?

If it works ...and works well ...I'm there. But unfortunately for me it (thus far) has not, so after nearly 6 months of DL after DL I'm concerned (that they are never going to get it fixed), because after all ....the HR20 is the _future_ of D*, and I am a D* customer.

I don't want to leave for another provider, I want it to work. Until it does I'll not have anything positive to say about it.


----------



## primetime73

My HR10-250 rebooted while recording Lost last week. Luckily I had the HR20 upstairs recording it as well and didn't miss the final 10 minutes. 

I have had the HR20 for about 2 months and had one reboot during the first week and it has yet to miss a recording. Checking the other message boards reveals plenty of people who have a problem but some seem to be compaining about issues they had 6 months ago and give no aknowledgement that the device has improved. Tivo on the other hand... bad guide data caused a couple misses and the occasional reboot has messed at least one recording up. 

Oof course there will be compaints followed by defenders, how many people go the internet to set up a thread when they have product that works? I just get sick to death of the HR20 bashers saying it doesn't work when it clearly does in many if not most cases while at the same time ignoring Tivo's miss steps on a box that has been in the market for years compared to months.

I am about to order my second HR20 for the third TV and get rid of the old non DVR box and have no reservations about it at all since Tivo has no future with D* once the MPEG4 starts up. If you want to switch to cable to stay with Tivo and pay the subscription fees with it go ahead, I just don't think the Tivo product is any better than the HR20.


----------



## GreyGhost00

FWIW, my HR10-250 works just fine (albeit on 3.1.5f).  (Sorry, I couldn't resist).


----------



## Sir_winealot

primetime73 said:


> I just get sick to death of the HR20 bashers saying it doesn't work when it clearly does in many if not most cases while at the same time ignoring Tivo's miss steps on a box that has been in the market for years compared to months.


No, it works for _you_, and to say it works in "most cases" is clearly erroneous information, because you (like everybody else) have absolutely no idea whether that's true or not.

And what does it have to do with "ignoring TiVo's (sic) miss steps?"

The box needs to stand on its own, and it either works properly (ie, can perform the basic DVR function of recording and playing back), or it doesn't. For _me,_ it does not ...I cannot speak for anybody else, but 'me' is all I really care about  .

It currently misses (or has unwatchable) roughly 1/3 of my series links, and that's just not acceptable to me right now.

Trust me, I wouldn't be *****in' about the thing if it worked properly!


----------



## cheer

MichaelK said:


> That's totally stupid- if ATT or Verizon or Comcast wants content they could just buy rainbow or rsn's themselves- why wait for directv to buy it up and create a big conglomerate with content and a delviery system? Why would any of them want a satellite system to go along with the content which would duplicate their own wired video efforts in much of the country. I think it's just some ananlysts talkign out their butts.


Well I can't imagine Comcast buying it (or even being allowed to), but Verizon or AT&T makes total sense.

Yes, they are creating their own wired efforts, but "much of the country" is a misstatement. AT&T will never expand U-Verse into, say, New Jersey and Verizon will never expand FIOS into, say, Illinois.

AT&T already has a partnership with Dish (both as a reseller of Dish and as part of their "Homezone" bundle -- this partnership was established by SBC), and the specific purpose of that partnership is to sell into other states or even their own states where U-Verse is not yet available. They also have an older existing partnership with DirecTV in some areas. They don't have a national content delivery system, and DirecTV would give them one.

Given their strong financials of late, I could see them making a play for D*.


----------



## bonscott87

Sir_winealot said:


> +1.
> 
> If you post at DBS about HR20 problems, a _horde_ of "mine works great" D* apologisits land squarely on your head, so continually posting your problems is a lesson in futility.
> 
> Certainly it _gets_ to them, but there is no real degree of empathy, that's for sure. Threads subsequently get into a heated debate and then closed, so that much of the negativity is not visible.


That's not really what I see overall.

When I see that it's when people post a flame ("POS") and not actually describing the problem and asking for help. I see plenty of posts almost daily of people calmly posting their problem and then getting lots of help and suggestions.

But when someone comes on and simply posts "this this is a POS and doesn't work" and when then asked for what their specific problem is are totally silent (thus a troll) or simply post their flame again....well....what do you expect back in return? Post a flame and you're bound to get flame back.
Post for help with details and you will get help.


----------



## MichaelK

cheer said:


> Well I can't imagine Comcast buying it (or even being allowed to), but Verizon or AT&T makes total sense.
> 
> Yes, they are creating their own wired efforts, but "much of the country" is a misstatement. AT&T will never expand U-Verse into, say, New Jersey and Verizon will never expand FIOS into, say, Illinois.
> 
> AT&T already has a partnership with Dish (both as a reseller of Dish and as part of their "Homezone" bundle -- this partnership was established by SBC), and the specific purpose of that partnership is to sell into other states or even their own states where U-Verse is not yet available. They also have an older existing partnership with DirecTV in some areas. They don't have a national content delivery system, and DirecTV would give them one.
> 
> Given their strong financials of late, I could see them making a play for D*.


ATT might since they aren't gung ho into video yet. But seriously does it make sense for verizon to buy a national delivery method when they plan to cover more households then comcast with fiber? It makes no sense for comcast you are duplicating 25% of the country and paying fat money to do it. The same holds true for Versizon. The price you pay for Directv is based on the number of subs, if it suits you better move 25% of them to your wired infrastructure then you are overpaying 25% to buy Directv. Anyone with a significant wired video business would be stupid to buy a DBS company in my HUMBLE opinion.

I guess if you are Verizon and you think you have maxed out the 25% wired households that you can cover and you think your only option to survive is to buy a nationaly delivery system then that's what you do. But if you can make an argument that you will die without it then you can probably talk the fcc and ftc and everyone else into letting you Merge with ATT or Qwest. But I'd think they are a long way off from that. But even then you could go the Sprint route and built a nationwide WiMax network for 4-5 billion and get a TWO WAY wireless infracture over the whole country. and still just pay a fraction of the 30 billion that directv is vallued at today. Assuming it costs you $600 to get a new sub (that's about what Directv spends- then you could BUY the 15 million subs directv has for around 9 billion- so for half the cost you could build a nationwide wireless network and 15 million video subs and you could see broadband and phone over that 2 way network instead of just sendign one way video.

What do I know though, I'm a working stiff...


----------



## cheer

MichaelK said:


> ATT might since they aren't gung ho into video yet. But seriously does it make sense for verizon to buy a national delivery method when they plan to cover more households then comcast with fiber? It makes no sense for comcast you are duplicating 25% of the country and paying fat money to do it. The same holds true for Versizon. The price you pay for Directv is based on the number of subs, if it suits you better move 25% of them to your wired infrastructure then you are overpaying 25% to buy Directv. Anyone with a significant wired video business would be stupid to buy a DBS company in my HUMBLE opinion.
> 
> I guess if you are Verizon and you think you have maxed out the 25% wired households that you can cover and you think your only option to survive is to buy a nationaly delivery system then that's what you do. But if you can make an argument that you will die without it then you can probably talk the fcc and ftc and everyone else into letting you Merge with ATT or Qwest. But I'd think they are a long way off from that. But even then you could go the Sprint route and built a nationwide WiMax network for 4-5 billion and get a TWO WAY wireless infracture over the whole country. and still just pay a fraction of the 30 billion that directv is vallued at today. Assuming it costs you $600 to get a new sub (that's about what Directv spends- then you could BUY the 15 million subs directv has for around 9 billion- so for half the cost you could build a nationwide wireless network and 15 million video subs and you could see broadband and phone over that 2 way network instead of just sendign one way video.
> 
> What do I know though, I'm a working stiff...


First, not sure how you define "gung ho," but AT&T has made video a huge priority, and they plan to rollout fast -- much faster than Verizon has.

Comcast has a much larger chunk of the country than Verizon does. In fact, the driving force behind either AT&T or Verizon grabbing a video delivery network would be competing directly with Comcast and other cablecos. Comcast et al have started going after telco revenue, and the telcos are going to come back at them -- hard. The telcos believe the ultimate answer is bundling, and they simply cannot bundle outside of their territories without an alternative like satellite. AT&T and Verizon both now have wholly-owned cellular companies that they can use to offer "quadruple play" bundles of voice, video, data, and cell, and AT&T's big driver to snap up Bellsouth was because they wanted the rest of Cingular.

You can't look at it as "duplicating 25% of the country." FIOS doesn't cover 25% of the country, or anywhere near it. Neither does U-Verse. Acquire DirecTV, and in less than a year you've got a footprint in all 48 states. (This is why AT&T is starting to really push Homezone, even in its own territories, as logistics and politics mean the Lightspeed buildout still has a very long way to go.) Building your own WiMax network sure won't do that. WiMax isn't even "there" yet -- you mention Sprint, but Sprint won't cover the entire country with it, and all they've said is that they're investing $3b in it over the next three years. AT&T and Verizon won't merge, even if the FCC and Justice Department would permit it (and I bet they would not), and while one or the other could gobble up Qwest, that still doesn't get full US coverage.

Buying the subs does you no good if you've got nowhere to put them.


----------



## dirk1843

bonscott87 said:


> Thing is, Malone has already stated he is already looking for a buyer for DirecTV, to "turn" it. He'll most likely only keep DirecTV long enough to keep the tax breaks and then will unload it.


Can someone spare a few million?? I have been getting tired of my job, and I think I could run D* pretty well. TiVos for everyone!!


----------



## MichaelK

cheer said:


> First, not sure how you define "gung ho," but AT&T has made video a huge priority, and they plan to rollout fast -- much faster than Verizon has.
> 
> Comcast has a much larger chunk of the country than Verizon does. In fact, the driving force behind either AT&T or Verizon grabbing a video delivery network would be competing directly with Comcast and other cablecos. Comcast et al have started going after telco revenue, and the telcos are going to come back at them -- hard. The telcos believe the ultimate answer is bundling, and they simply cannot bundle outside of their territories without an alternative like satellite. AT&T and Verizon both now have wholly-owned cellular companies that they can use to offer "quadruple play" bundles of voice, video, data, and cell, and AT&T's big driver to snap up Bellsouth was because they wanted the rest of Cingular.
> 
> You can't look at it as "duplicating 25% of the country." FIOS doesn't cover 25% of the country, or anywhere near it. Neither does U-Verse. Acquire DirecTV, and in less than a year you've got a footprint in all 48 states. (This is why AT&T is starting to really push Homezone, even in its own territories, as logistics and politics mean the Lightspeed buildout still has a very long way to go.) Building your own WiMax network sure won't do that. WiMax isn't even "there" yet -- you mention Sprint, but Sprint won't cover the entire country with it, and all they've said is that they're investing $3b in it over the next three years. AT&T and Verizon won't merge, even if the FCC and Justice Department would permit it (and I bet they would not), and while one or the other could gobble up Qwest, that still doesn't get full US coverage.
> 
> Buying the subs does you no good if you've got nowhere to put them.


I'm basically assuming verizon plans to rewire their whole footprint with fiber- that's were I am coming from. And that no one is buyign directv tomorrow that it will be a year or 2 at least till malone looks to dump it. So buy the time VZ gets around to buying it they wil have closer to 25% coverage then to 0%.

You seem to be assuming that vz or att will abandon their wired video plans and go dbs instead and I think that would be a huge change. If you think they want to have video tomorrow then yes by all means but DBS now, but i dont think they are in that much of a rush nor do i think malone is selling tomorrow . It likely will be a year until he even gets the final OK from the government to control Directv. Even in a year I doubt he'll sell right away. So there's that much more time for verizon or att to be along in their plans. And to be committed to doing video over their wired networks.

verizon has 45.1 million wireline customers- I think that's more then comcat but it could be a little less. Comcast might have a bigger geographic reash but i dont think they have vastly more houses past.

verizon is in the process of turning on like 1/3 of NJ for video at the moment and plans to fire up the second third in the next year or so. I think they have most of the countys in Maryland on the way also. That's with fiber to the home. I consider that a pretty big commitement, I'm hoinestly havne't heard much of ATT's plans except some bits and peices that they slowed down their fiber roll out. (But I'm firmly in VZ homeland so my nes will be skewed . I think they pass about 2 million homes with video now- is ATT that deep (dont know myuself)? Verizon supposedly is spending 18-20 billion between 2004 and 2010 for fios. So they will have plunked down a good chunk of change on fios before malone is likely to sell so whatever it is much would be a duplicative with buying a dbs provider.

SPrint will cover well more then half of the population with wimax in a couple years with 4 or 5 billion in spending. You dont need to cover every square inch of geography to get a lot of subs. Directv only covers like a quarter of the markets with HD locals yet they nail like 60% of the population. So it's all about pikcing up the denser areas.

Both verizon and ATT didn't just make their video plans yesterday- they've been workign on it fore a while, there's no reason they couldn't have picked up one of the dbs providers years ago but they looked at it and decided to go with their wired plans.

To be honest I think the best fit to buy up a DBS would have been sprint. THey have national wireless phone, they will get a majority of the population coverered with boradband in a couple years. THey can put voip on the fixed wireless wimax. THey bailed on their wired division and jettisoned it when they merged with nextel so one has to figure they plan on wimax being their last mile solution. Then then they could have used DBS for video and bamn in short order they could have had a national quadruple play footprint. But they are all buddy buddy with cable now and also ditching the wired side probbaly means they think they can do video over the wimax anyway.


----------



## TyroneShoes

Sir_winealot said:


> That's what I just don't understand, the emotional connection thing. I've seen some really heated stuff (in both forums) ...albeit more recently over there ...where people get downright nasty in defense of the thing...


I think it's easy to understand. It's human nature to want validation. If you are faced with a choice but are uncomfortable because you don't have enough info about the options and no crystal ball to ensure your choice was the right one down the road, you kind of feel out on a limb. It comforts people to find kindred souls who made the same choice, and infuriates them to hear how the opposite choice is working out so well for those who chose differently.

It is the same thing at the root of Stockholm syndrome. People try to get on board with the situation they are in, even if in their hearts they know their situation blows or that they probably could have chosen better. But knowing that just kills them, and when you innocently point it out they sometimes go ballistic. And folks who are vitually anonymous are always pretty brave when cowering behind their monitor and keyboard.

These posters are typically easy to spot because they tend to present weak arguments justifying their choices "I can get 30 HD channels at DISH!" (yeah, 30 channels of crap neither you or I would ever watch after week 1). But then it is kind of fun to tweak them up just to see them sputter  .


----------



## MichaelK

TyroneShoes said:


> ...
> 
> It is the same thing at the root of Stockholm syndrome. People try to get on board with the situation they are in, even if in their hearts they know their situation blows or that they probably could have chosen better. But knowing that just kills them, and when you innocently point it out they sometimes go ballistic. And folks who are vitually anonymous are always pretty brave when cowering behind their monitor and keyboard.
> ... .


great point- they sort of feel hostage to their choice.


----------



## zalusky

Actually my big complaint is not that DTV dumped Tivo its that they dumped all the choices. Remember when you could buy receivers from anybody.

At least the competition created a situation where the HW manufacturers tried to make their boxes better and we the consumer could choose. 

Now its middle of the road junk with no incentive to do better.

I want DTV to offer Tivo, MS, NDS, and anybody else who wants to jump in and let them all innovate against each other.

Imagine the cell phone providers if you only got one manufacturer experience. They have taken a step back by unifying their GUI in some cases but they still offer a large choice.


----------



## SullyND

zalusky said:


> Imagine the cell phone providers if you only got one manufacturer experience.


How many options are there for Nextel?


----------



## MichaelK

zalusky said:


> Actually my big complaint is not that DTV dumped Tivo its that they dumped all the choices. Remember when you could buy receivers from anybody.
> 
> At least the competition created a situation where the HW manufacturers tried to make their boxes better and we the consumer could choose.
> 
> Now its middle of the road junk with no incentive to do better.
> 
> I want DTV to offer Tivo, MS, NDS, and anybody else who wants to jump in and let them all innovate against each other.
> 
> Imagine the cell phone providers if you only got one manufacturer experience. They have taken a step back by unifying their GUI in some cases but they still offer a large choice.


the intersting thing here is that part of the reason that Directv and Dish got FCC exemptions from the FCC from the proceeding that is causing cable to use cablecards is that at the time years and years back their was a variety of brands with a variety of features availible for both provdiers at retail. When Directv gets done there will be no variety- SD, HD, SD DVR, or HD DVR all with the same UI. It will be interesting to see if the FCC ever picks up on that and forces Directv to open up to allow third parties again.


----------



## MichaelK

and the NCTA has picked up on that in their AUg 16, 2006 letter to the FCC whining about the integration ban:

www.ncta.com/DocumentBinary.aspx?id=466



> And if a competitive market were truly the problem, does the ban apply to all video providers equally? No. In 1998, the FCC saw fit to exempt the Direct Broadcast Satellite industry, our principal competitor, on the assumption that its set-top boxes were commercially available from a number of unaffiliated manufacturers. Ironically, DirecTV and EchoStar, now with almost a 30% share of the MVPD market, are moving in the opposite direction: that is,unlike cable operators who are supporting a robust market for digital cable ready devices, DBS is deploying proprietary set-top boxes that have no competition from third-party offerings in the retail market. Indeed, a very strong argument can be made that cable operators today satisfy theexemption from the ban claimed by DBS.


----------



## Lee L

Well, Dish and Direct are wrong for going single source, but to say that Cable companies are supposrting a robust market for third party devices is a bit a of a stretch. They pretty much have to be cajoled into doing it much of the time and they are actively trying to circumvent the spirit of the rule with switched video.


----------



## MichaelK

Lee L said:


> Well, Dish and Direct are wrong for going single source, but to say that Cable companies are supposrting a robust market for third party devices is a bit a of a stretch. They pretty much have to be cajoled into doing it much of the time and they are actively trying to circumvent the spirit of the rule with switched video.


cable sure can make you laugh with their perceptions!

that was a funny bit for sure...


----------



## cheer

MichaelK said:


> I'm basically assuming verizon plans to rewire their whole footprint with fiber- that's were I am coming from. And that no one is buyign directv tomorrow that it will be a year or 2 at least till malone looks to dump it. So buy the time VZ gets around to buying it they wil have closer to 25% coverage then to 0%.


I don't think that's a fair assumption. While I have no idea how long Malone would hold D* (if he plans to turn it, then whatever minimum period is necessary to get the tax break he wants), Verizon probably hasn't even got drawing-board plans to cover all of its territory. They, like AT&T, will spend the next year or two minimum just focusing on the more densely-populated areas with sufficient income levels to make the payoff quicker. Or at least, that's what they will try to do, which brings us the next obstacle...more below.


> You seem to be assuming that vz or att will abandon their wired video plans and go dbs instead and I think that would be a huge change. If you think they want to have video tomorrow then yes by all means but DBS now, but i dont think they are in that much of a rush nor do i think malone is selling tomorrow . It likely will be a year until he even gets the final OK from the government to control Directv. Even in a year I doubt he'll sell right away. So there's that much more time for verizon or att to be along in their plans. And to be committed to doing video over their wired networks.


Oh they're both committed, but you're missing the point: it's not just about their territories. It's about bundling. More below.


> verizon has 45.1 million wireline customers- I think that's more then comcat but it could be a little less. Comcast might have a bigger geographic reash but i dont think they have vastly more houses past.
> 
> verizon is in the process of turning on like 1/3 of NJ for video at the moment and plans to fire up the second third in the next year or so. I think they have most of the countys in Maryland on the way also. That's with fiber to the home. I consider that a pretty big commitement, I'm hoinestly havne't heard much of ATT's plans except some bits and peices that they slowed down their fiber roll out. (But I'm firmly in VZ homeland so my nes will be skewed . I think they pass about 2 million homes with video now- is ATT that deep (dont know myuself)? Verizon supposedly is spending 18-20 billion between 2004 and 2010 for fios. So they will have plunked down a good chunk of change on fios before malone is likely to sell so whatever it is much would be a duplicative with buying a dbs provider.


AT&T is very deep -- they announced Lightspeed back in 2004 (as SBC), if I recall correctly. But both companies have hit a huge snag: franchise agreements. Thanks to cableco lobbying (surprise, surprise) the telcos are being forced to negotiate franchise agreements with each municipality they want to built out in. Each little town council needs to have meetings, negotiate franchise fees, etc. In some cases, the telcos are suing.

But it isn't just about all of this. It really is about the entire country, and protecting other revenue streams. If Comcast can offer me voice, video and Internet and AT&T cannot, then I might be more inclined to use Comcast for, say, Internet rather than AT&T. AT&T and Verizon see video as another component that can help sell voice, data and wireless services. They're particularly worried about losing existing voice or data customers to Comcast, and feel that the only way to beat the cablecos is to trump cableco bundling with their own bundling that also includes wireless.

None of this is really a secret -- AT&T at least has been very clear in analyst meetings, etc., and again it's why they've pushed Homezone.

Plus, there may be tax advantages to such an acquisition. You'd be surprised how many huge mergers get done purely for tax purposes.


----------



## Cudahy

I've never seen posted what percentage of Directv customers have a Tivo. If it's at least 20%, given the loyalty of Tivo users, it's baffling to me why Directv wouldn't want to offer them a choice. They could even charge more. All they care about is making more money right?
They could offer Tivo the chance to sell a 4mpeg upgrade to the HD250 and charge them $100 per box for doing nothing. Tivo users would pay for it with few complaints.


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## samo

> These posters are typically easy to spot because they tend to present weak arguments justifying their choices "I can get 30 HD channels at DISH!" (yeah, 30 channels of crap neither you or I would ever watch after week 1). But then it is kind of fun to tweak them up just to see them sputter


31 to be exact (A&E HD launched Feb 1st). But couldn't agree more with your post. Most Voom channels are trash. At present there isn't a good selection of HD programming from any provider - cable or satellite.
And the Stockholm syndrome is even more pronounced in S3 forum than it is on dbstalk or HD TiVo forum. It is bad enough to read HR10 owners posts that they don't care about additional channels as long as they get to keep TiVo interface and suggestions, but when somebody posts that they don't care about SDV removing bunch of channels and no hope of getting any extra HD content as long as they can use S3 to receive OTA, it really makes me wonder.
Wake up people! This year (or perhaps next year) dozens of HD channels will be available from satellite and cable providers. At present, TiVo does not have a DVR that will allow you to receive these channels and except for the future Comcast TiVo probably never will. 
I didn't drop truckload of money on large screen LCD to watch networks and PBS OTA (even if I could receive the signal). 
I want as much of the choice as possible and I find both HR20 and VIP-622 quite acceptable. I have them now, they work, they are ready for a near future programming additions. And quite frankly, IMHO both of this units have nicer UI than TiVo does.
I don't have S3, so I don't want to argue about reliability (although reading S3 forum makes me feel lucky that I don't have to put up with TiVo bugs).
All I know, I don't want the DVR that RELIABLY DOES NOT RECEIVE most of the available channels a year from now.


----------



## cheer

Cudahy said:


> I've never seen posted what percentage of Directv customers have a Tivo. If it's at least 20%, given the loyalty of Tivo users, it's baffling to me why Directv wouldn't want to offer them a choice. They could even charge more. All they care about is making more money right?
> They could offer Tivo the chance to sell a 4mpeg upgrade to the HD250 and charge them $100 per box for doing nothing. Tivo users would pay for it with few complaints.


Because most Tivo owners on D* aren't that loyal. The average consumer -- even the average HD consumer -- doesn't understand the difference and likely wouldn't pay such a premium.

The number of people who would actually pay $100 extra per box is likely a very small one in the grand scheme of things.

But the test will be the Comcast deal -- in other words, how many people actually pay extra for Tivo service? It will be interesting to see how Comcast markets this.


----------



## bonscott87

cheer said:


> Because most Tivo owners on D* aren't that loyal. The average consumer -- even the average HD consumer -- doesn't understand the difference and likely wouldn't pay such a premium.
> 
> The number of people who would actually pay $100 extra per box is likely a very small one in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> But the test will be the Comcast deal -- in other words, how many people actually pay extra for Tivo service? It will be interesting to see how Comcast markets this.


Exactly. Many of my friends say they have a Tivo. Only 3 of them actually have a *real* Tivo. The rest have Dish's DVR or the DVR from Charter. It's all Tivo to them. 99% of the people with DirecTV with a Tivo barely realize it and will not leave DirecTV if they have to get something else. Once again, the huge Tivo fans on this site are barely a half percent of the actual userbase. Blip on the radar. I don't have the link but on another forum it was commented that there are already nearly as many R15's out there in customers homes as DirecTivo's. Mainly cause it's been the only DVR available from DirecTV for about a year and a half now, just about the time DVR's really started to hit the mainstream. It's not going to take that long for the HR20 to outnumber the HR10 either.

I'm not too sure where the Comcast deal with go but I think you'll find most people say "but it already records my shows, why would I pay extra to....have it record my shows?"
Only way that deal will work out for Tivo will be if that becomes the *default* DVR you get from Comcast.


----------



## ebockelman

Mark Lopez said:


> lol. It's been over 7 years since Tivos have been out and they still have bugs. The HR20 is a heck of a lot farther along than Tivo was at 6 month.


Really? I've never seen a Tivo refuse to boot based on an HDMI cable being connected.

Not display over HDMI? Yes. Refuse to boot? No.

That's a major issue.

Add the huge bug list and multiple RBRs and you have a situation that warrants staying away from the HR20.


----------



## cheer

bonscott87 said:


> Once again, the huge Tivo fans on this site are barely a half percent of the actual userbase. Blip on the radar.


QFT. This should be bolded, sized up to 72 point, and made a sticky.

Enthusiasts in almost every field need to remember that they're a minor part of the population. (Take every hardcore nerd Trekkie that ever put on pointed ears or went to a Trek convention, drop them all in the ocean, and you won't materially affect the box office for the next Trek film. Take every D* sub on tivocommunity, drop them from D*, and D* won't notice a blip in its financials. And so on.)


> I'm not too sure where the Comcast deal with go but I think you'll find most people say "but it already records my shows, why would I pay extra to....have it record my shows?"
> Only way that deal will work out for Tivo will be if that becomes the *default* DVR you get from Comcast.


I think you're right.

Tivo's CEO has admitted that the difficulty with their product is that you usually have to get people to use it to understand why it's better than other DVRs. That's a tough obstacle to sell past.

My mother just recently went HD. She's no techie, but she loves movies and wanted a nice system. She understood spending a lot on a Sony XBR instead of a $500 Wal-Mart special, but I couldn't talk her into the S3 -- heck, she needed some talking just for the DVR. She's hooked on the cableco DVR now, but she doesn't see why it would be worth $600+ plus the monthly fee.

I think if she had one she'd fall in love, especially if TTG ends up getting enabled. But I may have to buy her one to make it happen.


----------



## drew2k

cheer said:


> Tivo's CEO has admitted that the difficulty with their product is that you usually have to get people to use it to understand why it's better than other DVRs. That's a tough obstacle to sell past.
> 
> My mother just recently went HD. She's no techie, but she loves movies and wanted a nice system. She understood spending a lot on a Sony XBR instead of a $500 Wal-Mart special, but I couldn't talk her into the S3 -- heck, she needed some talking just for the DVR. She's hooked on the cableco DVR now, but she doesn't see why it would be worth $600+ plus the monthly fee.
> 
> I think if she had one she'd fall in love, especially if TTG ends up getting enabled. But I may have to buy her one to make it happen.


TiVo should offer a *Three-Months-You'll-Love-It-Or-Your-Money-Back-Guarantee*, with no service fee for the first three months. Customer just pays for the equipment, tries it out, and either returns it for a refund of the equipment outlay, or signs up for a service plan.


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## Lee L

Now that is a good idea. It certainly would make people more secure about having to sign up for a longer term commitment.


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## Cudahy

Has there actually been an objective survey of Directivo users on this? I can't believe that anyone who has actually used the wishlist on Tivo for a few weeks wouldn't mind giving it up just to save some money. Is there anyone who has had a HDtivo250 that wouldn't pay an extra $100 to keep Tivo-Directv when it goes HD?


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## bonscott87

Cudahy said:


> Has there actually been an objective survey of Directivo users on this? I can't believe that anyone who has actually used the wishlist on Tivo for a few weeks wouldn't mind giving it up just to save some money. Is there anyone who has had a HDtivo250 that wouldn't pay an extra $100 to keep Tivo-Directv when it goes HD?


I've had Tivo for 7 years now. I love the HR20 and plan to replace my remaining Tivo's with more of them.

Frankly I could care less what software runs my DVRs. The DVR+ platform is the current one from DirecTV so that's what you get. Personally I really, really like the HR20 from interface to extras.

There is only one thing I miss from Tivo: a working channels I receive list. Once that is fixed on the HR20 there isn't a single thing I would miss.

And honestly there are only 2 other missing features for most people: Dual buffers and "advanced" wishlists. I used neither and thus don't care a bit about either one. The saved searches on the HR20 are plenty good enough for my needs.

See, I went into the HR20 with an open mind and an attitude to try new things and for something new and fresh. Took me all of 10 minutes to get used to the HR20 interface and get comfortable. If you go in kicking and screaming you might as well just go to cable instead of torturing yourself.


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## Matt L

bonscott87 said:


> I've had Tivo for 7 years now. I love the HR20 and plan to replace my remaining Tivo's with more of them.
> 
> Frankly I could care less what software runs my DVRs. The DVR+ platform is the current one from DirecTV so that's what you get. Personally I really, really like the HR20 from interface to extras.
> 
> There is only one thing I miss from Tivo: a working channels I receive list. Once that is fixed on the HR20 there isn't a single thing I would miss.
> 
> And honestly there are only 2 other missing features for most people: Dual buffers and "advanced" wishlists. I used neither and thus don't care a bit about either one. The saved searches on the HR20 are plenty good enough for my needs.
> 
> See, I went into the HR20 with an open mind and an attitude to try new things and for something new and fresh. Took me all of 10 minutes to get used to the HR20 interface and get comfortable. If you go in kicking and screaming you might as well just go to cable instead of torturing yourself.


See, this is exactly why we need CHOICE. Dual buffers are a deal killer for me, I use them constantly. I've had TiVo for over 7 years now in various incarnations, and I've also had Replay and the nasty Dishplayer, and I'm loyal to my TiVo. It does not miss recordings as the others have and the few problems I've had in the past month are not due to TiVo but some idiots not entering data correctly. And, since I read, I do not have 6.3c on my HR10-250, I'm chugging along nicely, dropout free with my trusty ver. 3.xx.

No product is perfect. People are having troubles with the new software for what ever reason, people complain about the HR20 and the various cable company boxes. I can tell you this, I like having a choice. I choose to use DirecTV for the TiVo unit - which I had long before I had DirecTV - not the other way around. If they force an HR20 on me, I'll take it, but odds are I'll not be a DirecTV customer for long, if it does not do EVERY thing I want it to do, easily and dependably. They are not offering me anything I cannot get elsewhere in a form I like, as in the S3.

Once again, the key is choice.


----------



## samo

bonscott87 said:


> I've had Tivo for 7 years now. I love the HR20 and plan to replace my remaining Tivo's with more of them.
> 
> Frankly I could care less what software runs my DVRs. The DVR+ platform is the current one from DirecTV so that's what you get. Personally I really, really like the HR20 from interface to extras.
> 
> There is only one thing I miss from Tivo: a working channels I receive list. Once that is fixed on the HR20 there isn't a single thing I would miss.
> 
> And honestly there are only 2 other missing features for most people: Dual buffers and "advanced" wishlists. I used neither and thus don't care a bit about either one. The saved searches on the HR20 are plenty good enough for my needs.
> 
> See, I went into the HR20 with an open mind and an attitude to try new things and for something new and fresh. Took me all of 10 minutes to get used to the HR20 interface and get comfortable. If you go in kicking and screaming you might as well just go to cable instead of torturing yourself.


I'm not alone on this forum! What a relief.  The only thing that bugs me on HR-20 is a 30 sec "slip". Bit to slow for me. I never missed a dual buffer - if I want to watch two things at once, I just push the record button and then use "Previous" button on the remote. Not a brain surgery. 
And in 7+ years of using TiVo I never used suggestions and maybe used autorecord wishlist twice.
I like VIP-622 better than HR20, but both of these DVRs have much nicer UI than TiVo.


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## rminsk

The only thing that bothers me on the HR20 which is the deal killer is stability. If they can get it to go more than a month without a red button reboot or a missed recording I will change. But right now I can not trust it will record anything properly.


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## Bonanzaair

samo said:


> I'm not alone on this forum! What a relief.


Your kidding - right? You've not seen Cheer, Bonscott87 and others post around here about the wonderfulness of an HR-20? Maybe that's my problem - I read all that stuff. Still believe my Tivo is the better product - just to cheap to make the $650 plunge! The price will drop....but keep posting.

Bonanza


----------



## sjberra

rminsk said:


> The only thing that bothers me on the HR20 which is the deal killer is stability. If they can get it to go more than a month without a red button reboot or a missed recording I will change. But right now I can not trust it will record anything properly.


If they can get the HR10 to go that long I would be happy. Getting ready to call D* for the same problems on the HR10 (5th in just over 2 years)


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## bonscott87

Matt L said:


> Once again, the key is choice.


I like choice too. But it's something that is very rare in the industry and it costs a lot to support choice.


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## bonscott87

rminsk said:


> The only thing that bothers me on the HR20 which is the deal killer is stability. If they can get it to go more than a month without a red button reboot or a missed recording I will change. But right now I can not trust it will record anything properly.


So sounds like you don't actually have one?

The last couple software updates have really stablized the box and the lastest CE (beta's) releases have increased that even more along with a lot of little fixes that just make the experience smoother in general.

I think the HR20 is very, very close to being declared "stable" and they can move on to the new features and tackle things like dual buffers and such. And yes, of course there will be (and are) still people with problems but hey, just one look at this very forum and you'd think the Tivo has a lot of problems that are bigger then they probably really are.


----------



## Sir_winealot

bonscott87 said:


> So sounds like you don't actually have one?
> 
> The last couple software updates have really stablized the box and the lastest CE (beta's) releases have increased that even more along with a lot of little fixes that just make the experience smoother in general.
> 
> I think the HR20 is very, very close to being declared "stable" and they can move on to the new features and tackle things like dual buffers and such. And yes, of course there will be (and are) still people with problems but hey, just one look at this very forum and you'd think the Tivo has a lot of problems that are bigger then they probably really are.


I wish that *I* were included in the "very close to being declared stable" group for the HR20, as IMO the unit is anything but.


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## bonscott87

Sir_winealot said:


> I wish that *I* were included in the "very close to being declared stable" group for the HR20, as IMO the unit is anything but.


After the next national release if you're still having problems I'd suggest to just format it, perhaps there is some corrupt code in there somewhere. Then go with a replacement after that. The reports of major problems is going way down the past month or so, so we're getting to the point of corrupt code or hardware issues (at least in my opinion). But hey, I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.  In general anyway it is getting a lot better but still a ways for some people.

Anyway, off to DBSTalk for more HR20 talk I guess a mod will say soon.


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## Cudahy

I'm surprised the lack of wishlists is not more important to people. That's the reason I'll probably stick with my DirectTivoHD even when they start dropping the mpeg2 HD channels.
The SD picture quality is so much better on my HDtv that the jump to HD is nice but not essential.


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## rminsk

bonscott87 said:


> So sounds like you don't actually have one?
> 
> The last couple software updates have really stablized the box and the lastest CE (beta's) releases have increased that even more along with a lot of little fixes that just make the experience smoother in general.
> 
> I think the HR20 is very, very close to being declared "stable" and they can move on to the new features and tackle things like dual buffers and such. And yes, of course there will be (and are) still people with problems but hey, just one look at this very forum and you'd think the Tivo has a lot of problems that are bigger then they probably really are.


Between work and home I have four. All four of them have not been able to reliably record programs or not freeze... I have done countless RBR and reformats on all four.


----------



## Sir_winealot

bonscott87 said:


> After the next national release if you're still having problems I'd suggest to just format it, perhaps there is some corrupt code in there somewhere. Then go with a replacement after that.


This is my fourth unit ...so I'm kinda fed up with calling for a replacement.



bonscott87 said:


> The reports of major problems is going way down the past month or so, so we're getting to the point of corrupt code or hardware issues (at least in my opinion).


Where are the reports of major problems diminishing over the past month? I don't know about others, but I've just stopped complaining about it as it doesn't seem to do any good. I mean, what's the point?


----------



## Rych6896

gquiring said:


> Really? My Solaris 9 server uptime is 2 years, 3 months... My Red Hat server 1 year 8 months, my other RH server 3+ years..., my Tivo at best 2 weeks since 6.x update.
> 
> That is not the case. Read the threads more closely, 6.x HAS audio dropouts. Including mine.
> 
> Single incident yes, excusable no. It shows that Tivo has a piss poor Q&A team. And it was no once in a blue moon and removing season passed did not fix all of the issues. " Preventative maintenance on your SP's"? - that's a good one
> 
> What about the busted HDMI card in the early HR10's? I would assume you have an excuse for that problem also.
> 
> The Tivo is ok stuff but I just don't agree with all these it it's not a Tivo I won't use it. Give me more HD and I will drop my Tivo in a heart beat as long as the new DVR has dual tuners. I am tired of constant audio drop outs and those half baked black/green screens on ABC-NY HD.


I just finish some DST patching on some Solaris 8 boxes that required a reboot. Uptime was 2005 days. I really crossed my fingers on those reboots, also did them early in the day.


----------



## MichaelK

bonscott87 said:


> I like choice too. But it's something that is very rare in the industry and it costs a lot to support choice.


actually the FCC is mandating choice for cable (or trying to).

Seriously though- did it cost that much more to support when there were 30 different receivers in use, some being tivo's, some being ultimatetv, etc, etc? (not being sarcastis- asking a legit qustion- does that add tons of extra money- the csr drones just read scripts anyway do what's the big deal of asking at first"what box do you have" and then branching the script from there?)


----------



## jporter12

Thing is, they are still supporting TiVo's, and will be until they flip the TiVo switch to the off position (I hope that never happens!) If they were to go back with TiVo, I don't think the support side of things would be any worse for them. Unfortunately, to the average consumer, any DVR is a TiVo. That annoys me to no end! TiVo is THE DVR, but all DVR's are not TiVo!

On the electronic devices needing rebooted issue, I have a Windows Vista box that is at 19 Days and 12 hours. I know that's not a record by any means, but for windows, it's pretty decent! It's sad that we've gotten to the point where rebooting electronics is considered normal, and where buggy software on devices is acceptable. I work in the automotive industry (Repair Technician) and it is slowly creeping into cars as well. Reprogramming the computers in a car has become much more commonplace lately. Unfortunately, the dealers have the market on this, because the equipment and software is expensive, and is different for each manufacturer!

I just wish Directv would have stayed with TiVo in the first place!


----------



## jbradway

samo said:


> I'm not alone on this forum! What a relief.  The only thing that bugs me on HR-20 is a 30 sec "slip". Bit to slow for me. I never missed a dual buffer - if I want to watch two things at once, I just push the record button and then use "Previous" button on the remote. Not a brain surgery.
> And in 7+ years of using TiVo I never used suggestions and maybe used autorecord wishlist twice.
> I like VIP-622 better than HR20, but both of these DVRs have much nicer UI than TiVo.


No your not alone. I have both the HR10 and the HR20. I would be ready to sell the HR10 if the black HR20 was available. Lately the HR10 has been more of the unreliable receiver and the HR20 has done it's job.


----------



## bjibber

Mark Lopez said:


> lol. It's been over 7 years since Tivos have been out and they still have bugs. The HR20 is a heck of a lot farther along than Tivo was at 6 month.


Who cares how infantile the technology is: what matters is what can it do RIGHT NOW... by your post you are insinuating that i should expect to wait for 7 years for my HR20 to perform correctly before I can complain? Yeah that will fly in the free market, it's all about giving the underdog who comes in 7 years later a fair chance isn't it.


----------



## Bonanzaair

jbradway said:


> No your not alone. I have both the HR10 and the HR20. I would be ready to sell the HR10 if the black HR20 was available. Lately the HR10 has been more of the unreliable receiver and the HR20 has done it's job.


Now is there any question that the change in guide data was just a simple mistake on DirecTV's part! Meanwhile all the DirecTV hacks here blame Tivo, Inc. for not being able to handle that change. Perfect!

Bonanza


----------



## bonscott87

Sir_winealot said:


> Where are the reports of major problems diminishing over the past month? I don't know about others, but I've just stopped complaining about it as it doesn't seem to do any good. I mean, what's the point?


Are you participating in the CE releases and reporting the issues with it? DirecTV is watching those threads very closely. In fact a problem was found with 130 pretty much right away and 132 came out a couple days later which fixed the problem. I said what I said because the amount of big issues being reported with the CE's is way down. Yea, still some issues as with any product but the major show stoppers are way down compared to what it was even 2 months ago.

All I can say is you are on a string of really bad luck if you've had 4 replacements and still have issues. Sorry.


----------



## gpg

Add me to the list of those who has an HR10, but now prefers the HR20. I have a standalone series 1 TIvo bought back in 1999 which I replaced with DirecTV Tivos (3 SD and 1 HD) over the last 7 years. I wanted DirecTV to stick with Tivo, but I decided to give the HR20 a try. Now I'm thinking about swapping out the HR10 for a second HR20!

I never thought I would say that.


----------



## DeathRider

Mark Lopez said:


> lol. It's been over 7 years since Tivos have been out and they still have bugs. The HR20 is a heck of a lot farther along than Tivo was at 6 month.


What's that saying, "You learn from other people's mistakes"...

Not that D* reversed engineered a TiVo, but I doubt they started from scratch...



samo said:


> True. TiVoJerry has been trying to help members of this board on one to one basis. But if you call TiVo you will get zero support. And TiVoJerry can not perform miracles either. There are plenty of posts from people who have problems with FIOS that haven't been addressed by latest update. TiVoPony answer was very clear - update may or may not fix your problem, TiVo does not support FIOS.


Thing is, does Verizon help any, since some fault can be pinned on their end for not properly supporting 3rd party products/cablecard implementation.



SullyND said:


> How many options are there for Nextel?


Not too many optios...from what I heard, Sprint is eventually axing iDEN and going VoIP for direct connect.



cheer said:


> But it isn't just about all of this. It really is about the entire country, and protecting other revenue streams. If Comcast can offer me voice, video and Internet and AT&T cannot, then I might be more inclined to use Comcast for, say, Internet rather than AT&T. AT&T and Verizon see video as another component that can help sell voice, data and wireless services. They're particularly worried about losing existing voice or data customers to Comcast, and feel that the only way to beat the cablecos is to trump cableco bundling with their own bundling that also includes wireless.


I know more and more people are forgoing having a wired phone. I myself have been without a landline for 10 years...

If I can get a package of data/tv/wireless for Verizon, I'd be set. Of course, I already get 20% off VZW due to work, so I guess their tv/data package would have to beat RCN for me 



samo said:


> Wake up people! This year (or perhaps next year) dozens of HD channels will be available from satellite and cable providers. At present, TiVo does not have a DVR that will allow you to receive these channels and except for the future Comcast TiVo probably never will.


When these _new_ HD channels broadcast HD 24/7, I'll worry. Not all do.



> I didn't drop truckload of money on large screen LCD to watch networks and PBS OTA (even if I could receive the signal).
> I want as much of the choice as possible and I find both HR20 and VIP-622 quite acceptable. I have them now, they work, they are ready for a near future programming additions. And quite frankly, IMHO both of this units have nicer UI than TiVo does.


What about D* and HDlite? Maybe when their Mpeg4 satellites go up and if they go back to full HD, I _may_ consider it a viable option. That's like sticking a 4 cylinder in a Mustang and wanting to race a GT500 for pinks...

Latest commercials, they state future capacity of 150HD channels, not claiming there will be that many channels 



> I don't have S3, so I don't want to argue about reliability (although reading S3 forum makes me feel lucky that I don't have to put up with TiVo bugs).
> All I know, I don't want the DVR that RELIABLY DOES NOT RECEIVE most of the available channels a year from now.


My S3 has had only 2 minor hiccups in the past month of ownership. I haven't seen any mention of SDV from RCN, I don't watch much sports, and the only encrypted HD channels are Discovery, HDNET, HDNMOV. I could always do QAM, manually record the other HD channels and forgo guide data (I could use the SD channel guide data to go by).

My brother got the moto 6412 because it would be "good enough" and was cheap (only $3/month more than the digital converter box - he has an HD monitor, so no built in tuner). Works much better since RCN upgraded to Passport OS. Still quirky though.

His brother in law had a tivo for years. He also went with a Comcast DVR. I told him about the future TiVo software rollout, so he's going to keep an eye out for it.



jporter12 said:


> On the electronic devices needing rebooted issue, I have a Windows Vista box that is at 19 Days and 12 hours. I know that's not a record by any means, but for windows, it's pretty decent! It's sad that we've gotten to the point where rebooting electronics is considered normal, and where buggy software on devices is acceptable. I work in the automotive industry (Repair Technician) and it is slowly creeping into cars as well. Reprogramming the computers in a car has become much more commonplace lately. Unfortunately, the dealers have the market on this, because the equipment and software is expensive, and is different for each manufacturer!


Thing with cars, theoretically, it can become a safety issue. Like I want to "reboot" my car's computer while driving 65MPH down the highway  

It's disturbing ppl are settling for "good enough" and that it's better to go cheap than go for quality.


----------



## classicsat

MichaelK said:


> actually the FCC is mandating choice for cable (or trying to).
> 
> Seriously though- did it cost that much more to support when there were 30 different receivers in use, some being tivo's, some being ultimatetv, etc, etc? (not being sarcastis- asking a legit qustion- does that add tons of extra money- the csr drones just read scripts anyway do what's the big deal of asking at first"what box do you have" and then branching the script from there?)


It is not a matter of cost of the front line CSR support, it is in the cost of making advanced software features (to nearly compete with cable) work. Having a practically unified platform makes that easier and cheaper.


----------



## Sir_winealot

bonscott87 said:


> Are you participating in the CE releases and reporting the issues with it? DirecTV is watching those threads very closely. In fact a problem was found with 130 pretty much right away and 132 came out a couple days later which fixed the problem. I said what I said because the amount of big issues being reported with the CE's is way down. Yea, still some issues as with any product but the major show stoppers are way down compared to what it was even 2 months ago.
> 
> All I can say is you are on a string of really bad luck if you've had 4 replacements and still have issues. Sorry.


It's got bugs ...I can deal with those. But it misses recordings; not all the time, but every now and then. It'll record CSI and Gray's Anatomy, and then miss Hero's or Lost.

Has it gotten better? Yes. Point is though, it's still not dependable and many have come to accept a "missed recording every now and then." To me, that's not acceptable....


----------



## tnedator

bonscott87 said:


> And honestly there are only 2 other missing features for most people: Dual buffers and "advanced" wishlists. I used neither and thus don't care a bit about either one. The saved searches on the HR20 are plenty good enough for my needs.
> 
> See, I went into the HR20 with an open mind and an attitude to try new things and for something new and fresh. Took me all of 10 minutes to get used to the HR20 interface and get comfortable. If you go in kicking and screaming you might as well just go to cable instead of torturing yourself.


No dual buffers would suck on Sunday's during football season, as I usually flip back and forth between sunday pregame shows, pausing one, flipping to the other and fast forwarding to parts of the shows that I like, then pausing flipping to the next, etc.

Also, what about the 50 season pass limitation? Has that been expanded? That would be another killer for me.

Having said that, allowing more than 50 season passes, but without the ability to put a larger hard drive in might not make sense either.

We tend to record 'most' network programs, and all new shows, and then over the course of the network season, see what we think of the new shows and either watch them, or delete them. Sometimes we have 15 episodes of something stored before we ever watch the pilot. A 250 gig hard drive just doesn't cut it for the way we record and delay watching network shows.


----------



## MichaelK

classicsat said:


> It is not a matter of cost of the front line CSR support, it is in the cost of making advanced software features (to nearly compete with cable) work. Having a practically unified platform makes that easier and cheaper.


ahhh- thanks for the brief and simple explanation.


----------



## bonscott87

tnedator said:


> A 250 gig hard drive just doesn't cut it for the way we record and delay watching network shows.


Just FYI that you can plug in an eSata drive for as much storage as you want. There have been a few that have put 2 750 gig drives in a Raid enclosure for 1.5 tb of space. Fill er up!


----------



## Mark Lopez

bjibber said:


> Who cares how infantile the technology is: what matters is what can it do RIGHT NOW... by your post you are insinuating that i should expect to wait for 7 years for my HR20 to perform correctly before I can complain? Yeah that will fly in the free market, it's all about giving the underdog who comes in 7 years later a fair chance isn't it.


No, I never said you couldn't complain. My only point is that Tivo still has issues after 7 years and yet the Tivo lemmings will praise it as if it has no problems at all. But yet the HR20 which is still maturing, is constantly called a POS for having some issues after just a few months of service. I seriously doubt we will have to wait anywhere near 7 years for a product that is more stable and has more features than Tivo has or will ever have.



DeathRider said:


> What's that saying, "You learn from other people's mistakes"...
> 
> Not that D* reversed engineered a TiVo, but I doubt they started from scratch...


I'll actually agree with this. But at least D* is learning from them. Tivo should try that instead of just stagnating.


----------



## tnedator

bonscott87 said:


> Just FYI that you can plug in an eSata drive for as much storage as you want. There have been a few that have put 2 750 gig drives in a Raid enclosure for 1.5 tb of space. Fill er up!


Cool, that's half the battle. How about the initial release having a limit of 50 season pass entries? I have more than that.


----------



## bonscott87

tnedator said:


> Cool, that's half the battle. How about the initial release having a limit of 50 season pass entries? I have more than that.


Yep, that's a limit. Why? Who really knows. My guess is that in early testing anything over 50 causes instability or something. Again, just a guess. There is a big thread on DBSTalk about it. But having more then 50 didn't rate all that high on the big wishlist. I personally think we watch a lot of TV but we only have 31. I guess we don't watch as much as I think. 

But DirecTV is listening to the community and have already given us one of the top 5 items on the wishlist and they are working at 10 more off the list (or so our fearless leader hints at). Dual Buffers are not off the list to be added either. To me, even with it's problems that some people have, DirecTV is actually listening to the users, working with us closely on test releases, and taking to heart our wants and needs. I'd be pretty confident that unless the 50 limit is because of some sort of problem they can't fix that it will be lifted at some point.

And now we're getting the lowdown on the new FTM solution (only needing one cable for dual tuners) that should be out in a few months. And before you ask, only the newer receivers are FTM capable. Tivo's are not, they are too old.

I feel real good about DirecTV right now working closely with the user community.


----------



## SeattleCarl

Cudahy said:


> I'm surprised the lack of wishlists is not more important to people. That's the reason I'll probably stick with my DirectTivoHD even when they start dropping the mpeg2 HD channels.
> The SD picture quality is so much better on my HDtv that the jump to HD is nice but not essential.


Wishlists and suggestions are of no importance to me. The very first thing I did when I got my first Tivo was turn suggestions off. I'm a light duty user by any definition, perhaps a half dozen season passes/series links. Have trouble even watching that much most of the time.

I am one of the HR20 champions. I've got two and love the box. The only problem I've had are audio dropouts, and that appears to be fixed with the latest test version of the software.

I do like dual live buffers, and that is the single/only thing I find lacking on the HR20 compared to Tivo. Overall I prefer the GUI, menu structure, and overall operation of the HR20.

More importantly though, DirecTV is moving HD to MPEG4, with the anticipated addition of many new HD channels later this year. The only DVR that will work with that is the HR20. Some have commented that when their Tivo's no longer work with D*, that is when they will leave. That's certainly your option. Others have chosen to work with the HR20 and with DirecTV in trying to identify and remove the problems, and add the features that are most important. It is possible that the HR20 will see dual live buffers. It is possible it won't, but at least DirecTV is considering it while they deal with the more important problems that impact basic reliability which some have experienced.

Someone asked what percentage of DirecTV customers used Tivo. The last numbers I have seen indicated something like 2.5 million Tivos out of 16 or so million subs, which is about 15%. I don't know how many of those are HD subscribers, but I'm sure it is a small percentage. I have no doubt that DirecTV realizes how critically important it is to have a reliable HD DVR that is acceptable to the "average" user. That is why they are putting the effort into the HR20 that they are, and are listening to user input on what is important feature wise. The time frame to get the HR20 solid is much shorter than is the timeframe to get the SD DVR, the R15 equally solid. The reason is the addition of all the new HD channels this year. They are going to be forced to deal with upgrading HD Tivo subscribers much sooner (a year or two) than they are going to be forced to deal with upgrading SD Tivo subscribers, except for the trickle that have DVR's fail and get replacements.

So, if you are a diehard Tivo fan, and nothing else is going to cut it for you, then it would seem you are a limited time D* subscriber. That's fine, do what you need to do and go where you need to go.

On the other hand, if you are otherwise happy with D*, and are looking forward to a significant growth in HD channel offerings, then you need to start looking at the HR20 as the direction you need to go. Hopefully it will be satisfactory for you when the time comes that you have to make the change. You can help make it that way, or you can sit back and complain and fight it each step of the way.

Good luck whichever path you choose.

Carl


----------



## Cudahy

If Directv cared about their customers they would give them a choice; let Tivo put out a combatible mpeg4 TivoHD. 
In addition to the wishlists, the peanut remote has become like an extension of my hand. Looking over the HR20 remote it looks like a real downgrade(though not as bad as most remotes).


----------



## Sir_winealot

SeattleCarl said:


> The time frame to get the HR20 solid is much shorter than is the timeframe to get the SD DVR, the R15 equally solid.


What kind of time frame do they start with? The R15 has been out for over a year (not certain of the exact time) and it _still_ has problems ...which they are seemingly ignoring.


----------



## bonscott87

Sir_winealot said:


> What kind of time frame do they start with? The R15 has been out for over a year (not certain of the exact time) and it _still_ has problems ...which they are seemingly ignoring.


Here is my prediction:

The R15 will be phased out.

The R15 was pure NDS code and it sucked. No doubt about it. But again some people have not had many issues with it but I think overall everyone will agree it needs help.
Thus why with the HR20 they did it in house, no NDS code.

My guess is that once the HR20 is super solid you'll see an SD version based off the HR20 code, perhaps the "R20" that will replace the R15 all together. That just might be easier then trying to fix it.

Just complete and utter speculation on my part, I have no inside knowledge of anything.


----------



## Citivas

gpg said:


> Add me to the list of those who has an HR10, but now prefers the HR20. I have a standalone series 1 TIvo bought back in 1999 which I replaced with DirecTV Tivos (3 SD and 1 HD) over the last 7 years. I wanted DirecTV to stick with Tivo, but I decided to give the HR20 a try. Now I'm thinking about swapping out the HR10 for a second HR20!
> 
> I never thought I would say that.


If you're 10-250 is in good working order and D* allows it, I will trade you my HR20 for your 10-250.


----------



## vMAC

cheer said:


> Enthusiasts in almost every field need to remember that they're a minor part of the population. (Take every hardcore nerd Trekkie that ever put on pointed ears or went to a Trek convention, drop them all in the ocean, and you won't materially affect the box office for the next Trek film. Take every D* sub on tivocommunity, drop them from D*, and D* won't notice a blip in its financials. And so on.)


I think that your analogy is wrong for two reasons. First you are leaving out a very important aspect; the money. So while we may be a minor part of the DirecTv population I would assume (because I have no facts supporting or contradicting my thought) that Tivo users are spending more money than the typical DirecTV customers. It would seem to me that your friends who don't know that they really have a VIP or a R20 and just call them Tivos aren't spending $80+ on service. I would say that the people who are on this board and complaining about no Tivo are spending a lot of money with DirecTV. The reason the other people don't know that they don't really have a Tivo is because they just took whatever the installer brought them that worked with their $34.99 a month plan.



> Tivo's CEO has admitted that the difficulty with their product is that you usually have to get people to use it to understand why it's better than other DVRs. That's a tough obstacle to sell past.
> 
> My mother just recently went HD. She's no techie, but she loves movies and wanted a nice system. She understood spending a lot on a Sony XBR instead of a $500 Wal-Mart special, but I couldn't talk her into the S3 -- heck, she needed some talking just for the DVR. She's hooked on the cableco DVR now, but she doesn't see why it would be worth $600+ plus the monthly fee.


This is not necessarily a problem with your mom but a problem with the branding of Tivo. See I love me a Sony TV and have two of them, I also have a Vizio TV but I love the menu's that come with the Sony TV and wouldn't buy another Vizio because their menu's suck and you can't change the finer aspects of the TV. The UI for the HR20 is the worst that I have ever used, but then again I've only used a Tivo and a Sony UI for DVR's. So to me it isn't worth the extra channels which could come, could not come in the future with DirecTv. I want and prefer the Tivo UI and that's all that's to it, if someone can reproduce it so that it only takes me 2-3 keypresses to setup a SP as it does for my Tivo then I will be a fan of them.


----------



## RARamaker

bonscott87 said:


> Here is my prediction:
> 
> The R15 will be phased out.
> 
> The R15 was pure NDS code and it sucked. No doubt about it. But again some people have not had many issues with it but I think overall everyone will agree it needs help.
> Thus why with the HR20 they did it in house, no NDS code.
> 
> My guess is that once the HR20 is super solid you'll see an SD version based off the HR20 code, perhaps the "R20" that will replace the R15 all together. That just might be easier then trying to fix it.
> 
> Just complete and utter speculation on my part, I have no inside knowledge of anything.


I agree with your predictions with one exception - when the HR20 code is solid, the HR20 team will port the software to the R15 and boot NDS. NDS was useful when they needed a DVR fast to replace TiVo, but now DTV seems to want full control.

Russ


----------



## Howie

vMAC said:


> if someone can reproduce it so that it only takes me 2-3 keypresses to setup a SP as it does for my Tivo then I will be a fan of them.


When you're in the guide and have a program selected, just hit the record button twice and voila! Season pass (or Series Link, in HR20 lingo). All the while you can be watching another program at the same time. Much easier than with the HR10.


----------



## bonscott87

vMAC said:


> if someone can reproduce it so that it only takes me 2-3 keypresses to setup a SP as it does for my Tivo then I will be a fan of them.


Yep, all of two key presses on the HR20. All of 2 seconds, maybe. Must faster then the Tivo. In fact, if you pull up the guide, go to say HBO and arrow to the left and hit info. This will pull up all the movies on HBO for the next week. Scroll thru and one touch record any and all movies you want. I can setup dozens of movies in less then a minute.

Anyway....


----------



## chris22

but do they really record?


----------



## herdfan

chris22 said:


> but do they really record?


So far. My TiVo has missed more recordings (2 - due to reboots)) in the past 2 months than my HR20.


----------



## bonscott87

chris22 said:


> but do they really record?


I personally haven't missed a recording since I got an HR20 in early September other then a lockup during testing of one of the beta releases (to be expected).


----------



## bidger

No missed recordings on my HR20.


----------



## morgantown

I really like the TiVo's, but the HR20 does deserve a chance. Does it need improvements, heck yea. But from the reports over a DBSTalk, at least, the HR20 is far better than the lowly R15.

At the end of the day, if you are going to pay DTV as much cash as most of us do -- are we really going to not watch the new MPEG4 HD channels just because the trusty old TiVo do not get them? I think not.

At the end of the day content rules, and the vast majority of people will follow the content right to the HR20. Would it be awesome if Liberty and TiVo could play nice and permit "full" TiVo functionality in MPEG4 -- sure. 

I'm not holding my breath though. But, we can hope.


----------



## jhrain

Our 10 year old daughter says it best and often...

*"the Tivo works better"
"the Tivo fast forward is much better"
"the Tivo never skips too far into a show"
"the Tivo doesn't crash"
"the Tivo doesn't lock up"
"the Tivo menu's are easier to read"
"the Tivo is easier to set up a Season pass"
"the Tivo is easier to figure out"*

If we've heard "*the Tivo*" statements once, we've heard them a hundred times.

from our 17 year old super geek son..

"Why do i want a DVR that locks up and doesn't work like it is supposed to. The Tivo did and always has worked perfectly, even with 40+ Season passes. Why should DirecTV customers be a part of a BETA program just so they can try to develop a DVR that won't ever equal Tivo in quality?"

When your children offer allowance money to get Tivo back... and we've had the HR20 for months (running CE 132, we keep up with dbstalk etc) and simply do not like it, you do start asking these questions. I'd gladly spend as much as it would take to get an MPEG4, Series 3 DirecTV TIVO...


----------



## Redux

jhrain said:


> When your children offer allowance money to get Tivo back


Ebovoniac- Cleanup in aisle 6.


----------



## deezel629

DeathRider said:


> What about D* and HDlite? Maybe when their Mpeg4 satellites go up and if they go back to full HD, I _may_ consider it a viable option. That's like sticking a 4 cylinder in a Mustang and wanting to race a GT500 for pinks...


I love this analogy.


----------



## jbrasure

gquiring said:


> Audio dropouts, black screens, the season pass problem and reboots. Why do most folks think Tivo is so great?


The Tivo isn't perfect, but from my experiences, it's 10x better than the HR20.


----------



## Seminole

I am making the switch tomorrow and i was one who never wanted to give up tivo but with NESN hd available and the Sox season rapidly approaching I just thought it was time to make the switch it was going to have to be done at some point.


----------



## BillyT2002

I used to prefer the TIVO to the HR20, but I have grown to both like and trust the HR20 that I have. I only experience one problem with the HR20 and it seems I experience it every time D* updates the unit. Whenever there is an update, I get the black screen problem which requires me to do an RBR on the unit. And, because I know about the problem and I also peruse dbstalk.com on a daily basis, I know when I'm going to be updated and first thing in the morning after an update, I check that I have the problem and do the RBR. Other than that, it has been rock solid and I haven't missed a show, yet.

And, believe me, I'm the cranky, outspoken type who would call them and give them hell over just one missed show (and perhaps even start looking at other providers). I'm a lion when it comes to obtaining customer service. I bombard them with insistence and politeness (and I'm never irate during these calls). I've politely argued with my bank over a penny and won. (And, in case anyone is wondering I'm of Italian[Sicilian]/Irish descent.) By the time companies are done dealing with me, I leave them feeling that they would probably be better off just dumping me as a customer, but no one has ever actually taken that step with me so far. I think that is because I'm also one of the best customers in that I'm willing to part with a lot of cash on a monthly basis. If I were a bit meeker, I'd be the perfect customer, I'm sure.

It is all a moot point anyway, as I'm a firm believer that ipTV is coming soon (even to Maine where I live) and will be the next ultimate realization of the television entertainment experience. Apple TV is already coming on the scene and Microsoft has announced that the XBOX 360 will support Microsoft ipTV. (I'm hoping that Microsoft, unlike Apple will support a subscription model for content [with the ability to save content and watch it at your whim]). Verizon will also eventually start up FIOS services in Maine (though I'm a bit tired of waiting for them). Competition will really start and even prices will start going down as a result of the increased competition. It's really just a waiting game at this point (and I hate waiting games).

In the future, if I can define what I'd like to see as "my ultimate television experience". It will include a widescreen HDTV, set top box with DVR capabilities, a low-profile tablet PC which acts as the remote control, PC keyboard (on screen - touchtype screen capability) and overall inpur device, and a nice comfy couch. The tablet PC will house the entire UI for the set top box and television. I will never see any part of a UI, guide, todo list or what not on the television and it that will only be displayed on the tablet PC screen. The television will only ever show me actual television content. That is my dream.


----------



## Les_D

I'll be honest and say I'm giving the HR20 more consideration now that I know it's not built on the same software as the R15.

My mom's R10 Tivo died just a few weeks after she had it installed last year, and they replaced it with the R15. She didn't mind because she was thrilled to record her shows and not have to worry about her VCR eating a tape.

But she was WAY more upset that the R15 would choose not to record at least two random shows a week, and that it would lock up while she was digging through the menu. She had it replaced 3 times in 6 months.

If the HR20 is at least as stable as my HDTivo was with the buggy 6.3a software, I mau upgrade to het more HD.


----------



## bonscott87

Seminole said:


> I am making the switch tomorrow and i was one who never wanted to give up tivo but with NESN hd available and the Sox season rapidly approaching I just thought it was time to make the switch it was going to have to be done at some point.


And definately keep your HR10 (unless you don't want to pay the $5 extra receiver fee) since it will still work just fine for recording anything that's not MPEG4. That way you'll have 4 tuners.


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## jcaudle

samo said:


> You do know that TiVo officially does not support FIOS on S3? It does work for most users, but should you have any problems you will not have any support from TiVO.


I wish I had FAS here. They have signed an agreement with Fairfax County, Va but it will be several years before they serve the whole county. I have an S3 and now have service with Cox. Cant wait for FIOS.


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## pheroy

If I were to get an HR20 to replace one of my two HR10s as a trial... does D* charge two DVR fees for having both an HR10 & HR20, or does the one fee cover both? (I should probably call and ask them but y'all are so much easier to reach...  )


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## joed32

Just one DVR fee.


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## kblgy

hi.. i have just upgraded to dvr and removed my tivo's..i have an r15 and getting a h20 dvr installed on the 23rd. to be honest at first sight(cause i thought tivo and directv where still togehter)i looked around and said wtf but i have had no problems since i figured it out.

now tommorrow i am getting a hd box installed and then on the 23rd having my r15 replaced with an h20...what is the change in software ???


----------



## tividiot

No matter what anyone says about HR20 bugs diminishing or that audio dropouts have been fixed by the latest update, it's just not true. There are so many D* plants on these forums, it's truly amazing. They'd like you to believe the HR20 is a wonderful device. It's not.

Read the customer reviews on major sites, such as Amazon, CircuitCity, Crutchfields, eOpinions. They tell the real story. It's true that, for an undetermined number of customers, the HR20 is fairly bug free. But for an equally undetermined number of customers, the HR20 is a disaster: audio dropouts so numerous you can't enjoy the dialog in your favorite show; shows that won't play back; shows that aren't recorded; black screens of death, etc. I've never had a TiVo work as poorly as the HR20 does, right out of the box.

D* has released numerous software updates, sometimes 2 or 3 in a given week. It's not a strategy. It's panic.

Read carefully the comments from some of the HR20 lovers. They know only how their personal HR20s are working, and have gathered anecdotal "evidence" for a minority of customers who post in internet forums and then, resolutely declare the HR20 is a sound device. They cast a blind eye on the many who still suffer. Why? Do they work for D*? You be the judge.

This device carries an up to $299 initial fee for the right to lease it. When it's activated, a 2-year contract instantly begins, even if the box can't record and play back television properly when first plugged in. Trying to escape the contract results in an early-departure penalty. In the end, you don't even own the box. 

Should customers be treated like unpaid beta testers? I don't think so. I've never had a device fail in so many ways. It's truly breathtaking in its inability to perform its most basic functions properly and consistently.

Suffice to say, the HR20 should work vastly more consistently for its customers. How many continue to suffer, after repeated software updates and replacement refurbished units that D* sends out to attempt to fix the problems, is hard to detect. There is no publicly available information on how many customers have flawed HR20s and continue to experience degraded programming. None.

If this were a good, sound device, it would be highly rated on various customer review sites. It would have far fewer problems. It would require far fewer software updates (nearly all updates have been to erradicate bugs, not to add new functionality). It would be as stable as a VCR: Plug it in, record TV, play it back and enjoy.

For some undermined number of HR20 customers, it just doesn't do that. I won't lie to you that I have any idea how many customers have troubled HR20s. You likewise should challenge anyone who touts that the days of the HR20 bugs are over. It's just not true.


----------



## sjberra

tividiot said:


> No matter what anyone says about HR20 bugs diminishing or that audio dropouts have been fixed by the latest update, it's just not true. There are so many D* plants on these forums, it's truly amazing. They'd like you to believe the HR20 is a wonderful device. It's not.
> 
> Read the customer reviews on major sites, such as Amazon, CircuitCity, Crutchfields, eOpinions. They tell the real story. It's true that, for an undetermined number of customers, the HR20 is fairly bug free. But for an equally undetermined number of customers, the HR20 is a disaster: audio dropouts so numerous you can't enjoy the dialog in your favorite show; shows that won't play back; shows that aren't recorded; black screens of death, etc. I've never had a TiVo work as poorly as the HR20 does, right out of the box.
> 
> D* has released numerous software updates, sometimes 2 or 3 in a given week. It's not a strategy. It's panic.
> 
> Read carefully the comments from some of the HR20 lovers. They know only how their personal HR20s are working, and have gathered anecdotal "evidence" for a minority of customers who post in internet forums and then, resolutely declare the HR20 is a sound device. They cast a blind eye on the many who still suffer. Why? Do they work for D*? You be the judge.
> 
> This device carries an up to $299 initial fee for the right to lease it. When it's activated, a 2-year contract instantly begins, even if the box can't record and play back television properly when first plugged in. Trying to escape the contract results in an early-departure penalty. In the end, you don't even own the box.
> 
> Should customers be treated like unpaid beta testers? I don't think so. I've never had a device fail in so many ways. It's truly breathtaking in its inability to perform its most basic functions properly and consistently.
> 
> Suffice to say, the HR20 should work vastly more consistently for its customers. How many continue to suffer, after repeated software updates and replacement refurbished units that D* sends out to attempt to fix the problems, is hard to detect. There is no publicly available information on how many customers have flawed HR20s and continue to experience degraded programming. None.
> 
> If this were a good, sound device, it would be highly rated on various customer review sites. It would have far fewer problems. It would require far fewer software updates (nearly all updates have been to erradicate bugs, not to add new functionality). It would be as stable as a VCR: Plug it in, record TV, play it back and enjoy.
> 
> For some undermined number of HR20 customers, it just doesn't do that. I won't lie to you that I have any idea how many customers have troubled HR20s. You likewise should challenge anyone who touts that the days of the HR20 bugs are over. It's just not true.


Sorry, most of what you say can be said for the HR10, having major issues iwth random reboots, missed recordings, lockups, short records, etc. Have done so many delete and clears that I now spend 1 night a week dumping my wife and kids recordings to the dvd recorder just so they have it. I am tired of the screams of anguish form my 3 yr old when the lovely reliable HR10 reboots in the middle of WoW Wow Wusby, or god forbid - Dora the Explorer. The HR20 may have issues, but the HR10 is not a saint either.


----------



## bonscott87

tividiot said:


> No matter what anyone says about HR20 bugs diminishing or that audio dropouts have been fixed by the latest update, it's just not true. There are so many D* plants on these forums, it's truly amazing. They'd like you to believe the HR20 is a wonderful device. It's not.
> 
> .............
> 
> For some undermined number of HR20 customers, it just doesn't do that. I won't lie to you that I have any idea how many customers have troubled HR20s. You likewise should challenge anyone who touts that the days of the HR20 bugs are over. It's just not true.


Sorry for your troubles. So the fact that my HR20 has had virtually no issues in the 6 months I've had it makes me a DirecTV plant? Ok, sure, whatever you want to believe. For you it sucks. Again, sorry.

Just stop by DBSTalk. The last two software updates have stablized it quite a bit. Reports of major problems is way, way down and most agree that it's really going in the right direction. DirecTV is now even fixing or adding things based on the Top 50 most requested items list compiled over the past few months. DirecTV is listening and working with the community and things are vastly better then they were just a couple months ago.

Is it perfect for everyone? No.


----------



## bbodin

bonscott87 said:


> Just stop by DBSTalk. The last two software updates have stablized it quite a bit.


This is literally the 3rd or 4th time I've read the comment "The last few software updates have stabilized it quite a bit". The problem? Those 3 or 4 comments were posted over the span of the last 6 months.

So it wasn't stable 6 months ago when that person said it was? Or 3 months ago when another person said it was? Or today when you said it was?

It's either STABLE or it's not.

It just certainly seems based on the posts that there are some people who are lucky enough to have it work nearly perfectly and there are some that are unlucky enough to have it work horribly, and there are a LOT of people in between with a flakey system that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.


----------



## bonscott87

bbodin said:


> This is literally the 3rd or 4th time I've read the comment "The last few software updates have stabilized it quite a bit". The problem? Those 3 or 4 comments were posted over the span of the last 6 months.
> 
> So it wasn't stable 6 months ago when that person said it was? Or 3 months ago when another person said it was? Or today when you said it was?
> 
> It's either STABLE or it's not.
> 
> It just certainly seems based on the posts that there are some people who are lucky enough to have it work nearly perfectly and there are some that are unlucky enough to have it work horribly, and there are a LOT of people in between with a flakey system that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.


Stability is a relative thing depending on who you talk to. If you asked just me I'd tell you that my unit was stable from release date. So does that make the it stable overall? I know better then that. I can't say what other people post as what they consider stable.

Stable to me right now is where are we at with actually solving some lingering issues. There have been some great milestone releases. One of them around Thanksgiving really solved some nasty ones. And the past 2 releases the past month (and the national releases have literly been about once a month for a while now) have really cut down on the number of problems reported. Perhaps people aren't reporting them anymore? Can't say for sure I guess. But many of the vocal have reported many of their most serious issues have gone way down or eliminated.

I think the community as a whole has agreed and stated the past 2 releases the best yet and most of the major issues have been solved. Part of this are the CE (Cutting Edge) "beta" releases that come out nearly weekly. They are a few of us out there that wish to test it. New one just came out last night added 2 new features straight from the request list. Small things but were annoying GUI type things.

The CE alone has caught a few stinkers and solved a lot of issues. You know "hey guys, we think we got this issues fixed, try it out and try to cause that issue and let us know". This has been going on for over a month now and has created those 2 very stable national releases I referred to.

Are there still issues for people? Sure.
I hate to say it (cause it's no excuse) but are there still issues for the HR10 or Dish's 622? Sure.

The HR20 is getting close (if not there already) to that point where issues are more isolated to specific conditions and not widespread.

Again, stability is all relative to the timeframe and the person you talk with.


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## Sir_winealot

bonscott87 said:


> I hate to say it (cause it's no excuse) but are there still issues for the HR10 or Dish's 622? Sure.


For someone who "hates to say it," you sure seem to say it almost every chance you get, lol. Why does it always have to be "but _others_ are having problems too?"

The HR20 needs to stand on its own. It was released before it was ready, and many of us that "took the bait" have unwittingly become D* beta testers for _many _ months /raises hand.

For the record, our unit still misses/loses recordings and requires RBR's every now and then ...less frequently than in the past but it still happens. It's been going on for so long I've simply stopped griping/calling/vocalizing about it which, perhaps lends credence to people "not reporting (problems) anymore."

I'm over it --it requires way too much attention in order for it to work properly for even 80% of the time.


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## jhrain

We just moved our HR20 back to the "Secondary TV" in the house. We're so over this brick.

We moved our HR10-250 back as the primary TV with an OTA for local HD. It's only been one day and this house feels normal again. All the shows have been added back to the to-do list. 

I called DirecTV and complained again. They gave us a free year of High Def and a free year of DVR services. The account retention rep just sighed when I described the littany of problems we've had. She said and I quote "we would occasionally get calls about TIVO's, but nothing even close to the R15 and HR20. We're just giving in anymore and giving all these credits in an effort to keep people from leaving until the HR20 is better".

I'm tired of being the BETA tester. Who has this kind of time?


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## bonscott87

Sir_winealot said:


> For someone who "hates to say it," you sure seem to say it almost every chance you get, lol. Why does it always have to be "but _others_ are having problems too?"
> 
> The HR20 needs to stand on its own. It was released before it was ready, and many of us that "took the bait" have unwittingly become D* beta testers for _many _ months /raises hand.


I'll raise my hand.

And I normally *don't* say that every chance I get. I used to a few months ago but it really does no good.

But the point is that every single product out there has issues and there is no "nirvana" perfect product. Everyone will decide what is good for them. If it's good for them that doesn't make the product perfect and if it doesn't work for them it also doesn't make the product a POS.

Right now the HR20 does stand on it's own quite well.
Just this morning I read a thread here were a couple people posted about their issues with Tivo. Very quickly there were 10 posts of people saying "no problem here", "mines perfect". Gee, sound familiar? 

I only try to point out that there are two sides to every product, good and bad. Unfortunately too many people around here just can't or won't get that.


----------



## rminsk

I'll raise my hand also. Between work and home I have four HR20-700 and all of them have behaved very poorly. They must be reboot constantly in order to reliably record...


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## Sir_winealot

bonscott87 said:


> I only try to point out that there are two sides to every product, good and bad. Unfortunately too many people around here just can't or won't get that.


 Quite honestly, you come off as the "anti TiVo" when you post ...perhaps you don't (or won't) see that, but it's pretty obvious to me  (not that there's anything wrong with that).

I've said this before ....I'm for whatever works best, and right now, the HR20 does not record reliably _for me_, and hasn't since day 1; and I _know_ I'm not alone.

Heck, even their CSR's admit to having to deal with a lot of problems with these things...but --that's hearsay, so we'll dismiss it.



bonscott87 said:


> Right now the HR20 does stand on it's own quite well.


By who's standards? All we really have is anecdotal evidence since D* will _not _ release any info on this at all.

And what's deemed acceptable for a DVR to "stand on its own quite well" as far as recording, before it's coined as crapola? Is it okay to miss recording 1 program per week? Howzabout 2? ...3?

2 sides to every product: since 2001, my 5 TiVo units (3 of which are now HR10's) collectively have missed recording 1 show. In 7 months, my HR20 has missed....er, I don't have that many fingers (granted, more so in the first 5 months).

There's bugs in both products, but the bottom line is the recording consistency ...and of the 4 HR20 units that I've owned, they have been _anything but._

I'm glad your HR20 has been error free, but my intention wasn't to help D* make it a better machine when I got it ...it was supposed to be the "new and improved" model and it ain't.


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## jbrasure

In my opinion, no single person can judge the HR20 vs Tivo accurately. It's just too small a sample to have any statistical meaning. However, the user reviews at Amazon, Epinions, and CNet are definitely worth looking at. They paint a clear picture which shows one thing: You're much more likely to be satisfied with a Tivo.


----------



## jbradway

tividiot said:


> No matter what anyone says about HR20 bugs diminishing or that audio dropouts have been fixed by the latest update, it's just not true. There are so many *D* plants on these forums*, it's truly amazing. They'd like you to believe the HR20 is a wonderful device. It's not.


So would I be a ficus plant? 

Yes I have been deep under cover and purchased my HR10 years before the HR20 was released. I joined the forum in Sep 2001 just to position myself for this very mission. 
I am a sneaky one.


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## nrc

I don't believe there are DirecTV plants. Some people are just very invested in DirecTV. They can't give it up either because of limited options (poor or no cable) or sports subscription addictions. Some those people will take whatever DirecTV feeds them and try to convince themselves and everyone else that it's not so bad.

Of course I'm sure there are also some who genuinely prefer the HR20 interface and features, just as there were some who prefered Replay or UltimateTV. But even then, as losers in the first DVR battles some of them have relished the opportunity to tout something else over TiVo and could hardly be considered objective.


----------



## samo

nrc said:


> I don't believe there are DirecTV plants. Some people are just very invested in DirecTV. They can't give it up either because of limited options (poor or no cable) or sports subscription addictions. Some those people will take whatever DirecTV feeds them and try to convince themselves and everyone else that it's not so bad.
> 
> Of course I'm sure there are also some who genuinely prefer the HR20 interface and features, just as there were some who prefered Replay or UltimateTV. But even then, as losers in the first DVR battles some of them have relished the opportunity to tout something else over TiVo and could hardly be considered objective.


I generally agree with your statement, except you have to admit that there are quite a few people on this forum that are very invested in TiVo (including some that are TiVo investors). If you exclude both ends of the spectrum, then you end up with people who have different preferences and different recording patterns.
You can never find a consensus on which color is better - red or blue. You'll never find a consensus on which UI is better HR20 or Tivo.
Being objective means to remember growing pains that TiVo had and to allow for some growing pains for newer DVRs. If you want to criticize HR20 or VIP622 - don't compare them to HR10 on stability issues - compare them to S3.
Feature for feature HR20 is a clear winner unless you can't live without suggestions. IMHO "it's not so bad" is understatement. In many features it is superior to even TiVo flagship S3. 
To use a blanket statement that HR20 sucks is a same as to say that S3 doesn't work with [insert cable company name here]. Some people have bad experience with HR20, some people have bad experience with S3. Even with stable technology like R-10 I had to buy 5 receivers to get 2 good ones (unusual and completely unexpected for me - but stranger things happen).
Bottom line - for DirecTV users HR20 is a future technology and TiVo is the past. Nothing will change it and in a very near future most HR10 users will be waiting in line to get HR20 (sorry, I don't believe that any sane person would reject an opportunity to receive 50-70 additional channels).


----------



## tividiot

bonscott87 said:


> So the fact that my HR20 has had virtually no issues in the 6 months I've had it makes me a DirecTV plant? Ok, sure, whatever you want to believe. For you it sucks. Again, sorry.
> 
> Just stop by DBSTalk. The last two software updates have stablized it quite a bit. Reports of major problems is way, way down and most agree that it's really going in the right direction. DirecTV is now even fixing or adding things based on the Top 50 most requested items list compiled over the past few months. DirecTV is listening and working with the community and things are vastly better then they were just a couple months ago.
> 
> Is it perfect for everyone? No.


Never said you were a plant. Interesting that you think I was referring to you, though.

You definitely overstate your personal observations of your HR20 as fact that the device has stabilized. I have stopped by dbstalk. It's littered with bug reports, followed by a few devotees who constantly parrot "Gee, it works great for me", as if hoping that insipid battle cry will drown out the folks who still suffer.

Riddle me this: Why are so many people still reporting problems so damaging to their television viewing experience if the device is stabilizing? DirecTv has been unable to stabilize the HR20, despite that fact that the user community is helping it do so (as are all of its contractually bound beta tester customers. I'd guess that whoever is helping DirecTv test this device is someone like you, happily reporting few problems, thus diverting DirecTv from actually fixing the major deficits that remain for some undetermined number of leasees. Could be hundreds of thousands of HR20 customers with bugs. You have no idea. Neither do I. But your blanket comments are not reassuring to those who continue to suffer problems, despite loading software update after software update, instaling replacement refurb device after refurb device.

One would hope that a company like DirecTv, any company, would be able to design a device that actually won the approval of the majority of its customers. Again, just look at the reviews at various customer sites. On Amazon, great products draw great reviews. Crappy ones don't. The HR20 is being savaged by its customers, including those who have installed the most recent software updates.

What's truly puzzling is that some have great HR20 and others have crappy ones. And enough have crappy ones to fill review sites and forums like dbstalk with post after post of problems so severe, one has to wonder what the heck is up with this product.

What's even more interesting is the number of HR20 customers who have been loyal DirecTv customers since 1994, 1995, and only now, when they upgrade DVRs to the HR20, are they left angry and frustrated at service they once treasured and bragged about to their friends and families.

I'm happy you love your HR20. Wish I had yours. Many others wish they had yours. The real story here is why the device only works for some customers and what its true failure rate is. Only DirecTv knows that figure. Again, look at review sites. The products with the highest failure rates are getting the highest negative reviews. Then, read some of the reviews. This device is being literally savaged by a significant number of customers on review sites, customers who previously loved DirecTv and thus are the least likely to hold it in contempt. The intensity of their disgust is palpable and really speaks volumes.


----------



## tividiot

bonscott87 said:


> Perhaps people aren't reporting them anymore? Can't say for sure I guess. But many of the vocal have reported many of their most serious issues have gone way down or eliminated.


I can't say for sure either. But an alternative view would be that people are tired of posting the same problem over and over again, only to be met by the same few people posting "gosh, my HR20 works great!" And really, how many HR20s have been leased? Lots. How many people have been posting in HR20 forums, reporting problems? Only a fraction of the people with HR20s. And take a look at the posts. The people posting over and over are the same "works great for me" crowd of people. It's no wonder DirecTv can't fix the major problems with this device. The feedback they are getting isn't particularly useful. If I'm writing code to fix problems, I surely would not want to hear from you if you think your HR20 has worked well since you leased it. I'd rather hear from the angry life-long loyal DirecTv customers who are suffering and savaging the device in reviews on Amazon.



bonscott87 said:


> I think the community as a whole has agreed and stated the past 2 releases the best yet and most of the major issues have been solved. Part of this are the CE (Cutting Edge) "beta" releases that come out nearly weekly. They are a few of us out there that wish to test it. New one just came out last night added 2 new features straight from the request list. Small things but were annoying GUI type things.
> 
> The HR20 is getting close (if not there already) to that point where issues are more isolated to specific conditions and not widespread.
> 
> Again, stability is all relative to the timeframe and the person you talk with.


Let's talk stability: Every day at dbstalk, there are new posts like this: Audio dropouts so bad one can't understand the dialog of their programs (live or recorded); programs that don't record; programs that recorded but don't play back. Gee, seems like the HR20 is getting close. Anyone who thinks it's already there is severely misguided or statistically challenged. The fact that a small sample of geeks on dbstalk gather around their keyboards and undulate about a DVR isn't a community as a whole, nor a relevant sample of HR20 customers at all. It's merely likeminded tweakers who love to tinker with software. From their repeated posts, they drool over the chance to play with beta software and willingly underestimate the severity and pervasiveness of bugs that the average HR20 customer finds daunting and unacceptable.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about when you say the HR20 is getting close. You have absolutely no evidence of this. Your statements are merely your opinions and quite transparent.


----------



## tividiot

bonscott87 said:


> Right now the HR20 does stand on it's own quite well.


Stands on its own quite well _in your house_.

You continually make these blanket statements, as if they are fact. They are not. You're not fooling anyone. You have no knowledge to back these statements up, other than your HR20 is working well. You are a statistic of 1.


----------



## sjberra

tividiot said:



> Stands on its own quite well _in your house_.
> 
> You continually make these blanket statements, as if they are fact. They are not. You're not fooling anyone. You have no knowledge to back these statements up, other than your HR20 is working well. You are a statistic of 1.


could that not be the same statement for you - you tout the fact that your HR10 is working perfectly, but there are a lot of people - myself included - that are having massive problems with that unit also. So where is the difference?


----------



## nrc

samo said:


> I generally agree with your statement, except you have to admit that there are quite a few people on this forum that are very invested in TiVo (including some that are TiVo investors).


Certainly there are some, but for the most part TiVo fans are TiVo fans because they have judged TiVo to be the best DVR available. For most, that's an choice based on DVR features, stability, and user interface. They're not locked in by programming or supplier options. If something better comes along they'll switch. Few people are switching to the HR20 because they feel it's better, they're switching because DirecTV is giving them no choice.



> Being objective means to remember growing pains that TiVo had and to allow for some growing pains for newer DVRs. If you want to criticize HR20 or VIP622 - don't compare them to HR10 on stability issues - compare them to S3.


That's silly. When you're buying a car you don't say, "Well, the Mazda rode, drove, and looked better but Kia's doing very well considering they're newer at this so I'll go with them." Unless, of course, you work for Kia, Kia's the only dealer around, or Kia's the only brand that picks up your favorite sports team on their radio.  But once again, you're making excuses for something you're locked into.



> Feature for feature HR20 is a clear winner unless you can't live without suggestions.


That sounds like the assessment of someone who is trapped by either lack of cable choice or sport subscriptions. 

If you can live without suggestions, true dual buffers, real wish lists, the TiVo guide, and any number of other niceties that have made TiVo the standard by which all other DVRs are judged the HR20 may be an acceptable alternative. Few people looking objectively at DVR functionality would declare the HR20 "a clear winner."


----------



## Wolffpack

bonscott87 said:


> Sorry for your troubles. So the fact that my HR20 has had virtually no issues in the 6 months I've had it makes me a DirecTV plant? Ok, sure, whatever you want to believe. For you it sucks. Again, sorry.
> 
> Just stop by DBSTalk. The last two software updates have stablized it quite a bit. Reports of major problems is way, way down and most agree that it's really going in the right direction. DirecTV is now even fixing or adding things based on the Top 50 most requested items list compiled over the past few months. DirecTV is listening and working with the community and things are vastly better then they were just a couple months ago.
> 
> Is it perfect for everyone? No.


In This Poll on DBSTalk only 50.55% of the respondents reported "No problems".

Just read that thread. Craig's survey is showing users are experiencing many more problems with x0134 than they did with the previous updates.


----------



## jimb726

tividiot said:


> Again, you have no idea what you're talking about when you say the HR20 is getting close. You have absolutely no evidence of this. Your statements are merely your opinions and quite transparent.


I would think that the exact same thing would apply to yourself, the one statement that has rung true in both arguements is the fact that no-one knows how many units are out there and know one knows how many people are having problems. It is however a fact that people with issues are about 4 times more likely to complain, post, etc, than people without any problems. And that is with any product, I am not talking the Tivo or the HR20. Your statements about the continuous and ongoing problems being reported over at dbstalk.com, although true are not put into context, many are from the same people with the same problem getting help from other people who either do not have the problem or have been helping others work there way through the issues. Certainly there are people for whom the unit is an utter failure and for them I truly feel bad, but in those instances they have had to make a decision stick with the product and hope that eventually the exchange will get them a working unit, or switch providers. For the record, I have an HR10 and have 2 HR20's, and I have had ZERO issues with either of them. So what type of statistical anomoly does that make me? I have not posted on any internet website praising either unit, why would I? They do what I ask them to do and they both do it well. I see no reason to post on Amazon that either unit is working in the manner in which I intend it to.

Jim


----------



## jimb726

Wolffpack said:


> In This Poll on DBSTalk only 50.55% of the respondents reported "No problems".
> 
> Just read that thread. Craig's survey is showing users are experiencing many more problems with x0134 than they did with the previous updates.


Wolfpack,
You have a post on that very thread, (post#25) pointing out the very problem with that thread, many people are voting for two or more choices!!! You even referenced one person who had voted for the fact that he had no problems as well as ONGOING problems with caller id that were there before that update. So given that by your own admission that the poll would be invalidated by those types of responses, dont you think it might be a little misleading to throw that link up and say "only 50.55% of the people responded no problem"?


----------



## Wolffpack

jimb726 said:


> Wolfpack,
> You have a post on that very thread, (post#25) pointing out the very problem with that thread, many people are voting for two or more choices!!! You even referenced one person who had voted for the fact that he had no problems as well as ONGOING problems with caller id that were there before that update. So given that by your own admission that the poll would be invalidated by those types of responses, dont you think it might be a little misleading to throw that link up and say "only 50.55% of the people responded no problem"?


If one logically votes for multiple problems or no problems the percentage with no problems would be in the ball park. The individual problems may receive multiple votes but in the instance I mentioned, where the poster voted for "no problems" and "caller id" problems, all that would do is over inflate the "no problem" percentage. Despite the fact the "no problems" percentage is showing higher due to these multiple votes, it's still only 50%. My real point was that a poll such as this shoots down the idea that only a few users are having problems and other posts in that thread clearly indicate there are more problems with the latest release than previous releases.


----------



## vobguy

I like the Tivo I have for DirecTV. I like how it works. It works reliably and predicatbly with a known problem set. 

I use the dual buffers almost all the time, especially if I want to watch a show and turn the other tuner to , say, the local news just to catch the weather forecast. 

I don't want to record the local news for that, but I don't want to miss the weather forecast either, nor do I want to have to return to the bad old days when I had to just sit there and wait for the weather forecast instead of spending most of that time watching something I actually want to watch. 

For me, that is a big part of how the Tivo works. Now that we are talking about going to HD, this has become an issue for my family.

Question, does Dish network's DVR have buffers, dual tuners, and if so, dual bufers? 

How does the Dish HD DVR compare versus the HR20 and the 10-250 ? 

I mean I like Tivo but what I really need is the functionality (as well as reliability) 

If that means moving to Dish and advising my family and friends who are in the same boat (and asking some of the same questions I am ) to do the same, so be it.


----------



## drew2k

samo said:


> If you exclude both ends of the spectrum, then you end up with people who have different preferences and different recording patterns.
> 
> You can never find a consensus on which color is better - red or blue. You'll never find a consensus on which UI is better HR20 or Tivo.


 So far, I agree ...



> Feature for feature HR20 is a clear winner unless you can't live without suggestions.


This is where I disagree.

You were on the money earlier when you said that there won't be consensus, so I'll add some supporting evidence (especially since you then made a blanket statement that the HR20 is a "clear" winner!) 

Forget all about fancy features like WishLists and Suggestions, and let's just talk about the basics: trick-play. This is what I expect most users use more than any other feature on their DVR. TiVo has a patent on overshoot compensation (aka auto-correction), so when a users exits trick-play, the user is EXACTLY where the user wants to be in the play stream. The HR20 can't duplicate this very friendly feature because of the patent. Over 90% of my time interacting with my DVRs involves trick-play: forwarding, skipping, replaying, etc., so in my opinion, the fact that the HR20 can't handle exiting trick-play as elegantly as the TiVo makes TiVo the winner. (Clearly.) 

So why am I using the HR20? Because I *do* want all those other HD channels that are on the way. I know DirecTV has been working hard on improving the HR20, and I've seen it in the short time I've had the HR20. I just hope DirecTV can license use of auto-correction from TiVo, or can come up with their own workaround that doesn't violate TiVo's IP rights. Then I can revisit who the "clear" winner is ...


----------



## Sir_winealot

drew2k said:


> I just hope DirecTV can license use of auto-correction from TiVo, or can come up with their own workaround that doesn't violate TiVo's IP rights.


I think the last thing D* wants is to be paying TiVo for anything involving DVR's. Isn't that why they developed their own in-house version to begin with?


----------



## RS4

The reason I'm leaving Direct when my commitment runs out is their arrogance. I've been with them as a loyal customer since 1994 when the service was first offered, and I've had it. They are reducing the choices I have. There used to be several vendors - not anymore - it's down to two - 1.Take it or 2 Leave it. I'm choosing the latter.

A company that puts out a clearly inferior product too early and then forces people to pay them while they work out bugs - big bugs at that is the final straw for me.

It's clear to me that Direct has lost site of the customer - plain and simple. It takes product and/or services along with investors and customers to make a company work. Direct has forgotten that simple fact.

Forcing people to lease inferior products for 2 years at a time just doesn't cut it for me, so I've had. 

TIVO has had many functions available to the rest of the world, but Direct chose not to let us use those features. That started it for me. Why on earth would you ever alienate such a huge customer base is beyond my comprehension.

I get a kick out of reading here how well Direct is listening to the Top 50 list of improvements. They've had a chance for years to give us more features, but did they listen? NO - pure arrogance.

I put Direct in the same boat as a huge software company that must have 90% of the market - they could care less what the client wants until they find out they might be losing some part of the market.

My dollars are moving to someone else and I can't wait - if nothing else, I'll feel better because I believe that's unfortunately the only way to get their attention.

The HR20 mess just tells me how gullible and yet forgiving people can be when they don't know what else is out there.


----------



## jimb726

RS4 said:


> TIVO has had many functions available to the rest of the world, but Direct chose not to let us use those features. That started it for me. Why on earth would you ever alienate such a huge customer base is beyond my comprehension.


I agree with your post for the most part in theory, except for this part, I have read that it was Tivo who didnt want D* to have a lot of the features that were not included in the DTivo's. Or that Tivo wanted a ton for the right to use them. One or the other. FWIW


----------



## Wolffpack

jimb726 said:


> I agree with your post for the most part in theory, except for this part, I have read that it was Tivo who didnt want D* to have a lot of the features that were not included in the DTivo's. Or that Tivo wanted a ton for the right to use them. One or the other. FWIW


I'd agree with that. Between the 3.x and 6.x versions of the DTivo software many new features were added that it seems D* didn't, and doesn't, value as they still are not in their homegrown DVR+ DVRs. It would be reasonable for Tivo to ask for more $$$ and since D* is just looking for the cheapest DVR they can produce they opted not to pay those extra fees. Thus HMO and MRV were turned off.


----------



## RS4

Thanks for the update, guys. It just tells me that Direct doesn't care about the client. Even if Tivo did want more money for the extra features, Direct never even offered them at a premium. 

Direct is sending me signals loud and clear that they'll take the cheap way out and zing it to me whenever possible.


----------



## Wolffpack

RS4 said:


> Thanks for the update, guys. It just tells me that Direct doesn't care about the client. Even if Tivo did want more money for the extra features, Direct never even offered them at a premium.
> 
> Direct is sending me signals loud and clear that they'll take the cheap way out and zing it to me whenever possible.


Plus, D* offers their Platinum package, way out of line. But thinks all customers will be satisfied with their el-cheap-o DVR. I truly don't understand why they don't offer their home brew for free or cheap, and then charge a premium for a DVR that really works. Humm. 

*EDIT: *Just to clarify. If the R15/HR20 costs $5/mo I'd pay $10/mo for a Tivo based, MPEG4 capable DVR. And multiples of them. I'd also pay more for them up front. Amazing that D* charged $1000 for the HR10 when it came out (and many bought them) and they're giving away, or nearly, the HR20. Just don't understand why D* doesn't understand the concept of choice on the part of the subscriber.


----------



## samo

drew2k said:


> This is where I disagree.
> 
> You were on the money earlier when you said that there won't be consensus, so I'll add some supporting evidence (especially since you then made a blanket statement that the HR20 is a "clear" winner!)
> 
> Forget all about fancy features like WishLists and Suggestions, and let's just talk about the basics: trick-play. This is what I expect most users use more than any other feature on their DVR. TiVo has a patent on overshoot compensation (aka auto-correction), so when a users exits trick-play, the user is EXACTLY where the user wants to be in the play stream. The HR20 can't duplicate this very friendly feature because of the patent. Over 90% of my time interacting with my DVRs involves trick-play: forwarding, skipping, replaying, etc., so in my opinion, the fact that the HR20 can't handle exiting trick-play as elegantly as the TiVo makes TiVo the winner. (Clearly.)
> ...


I'm a 30 sec skip guy, so overshoot compensation is not really important to me. But I do concede, I wish 30 sec "slip" that HR20 has was a true skip like TiVo or better yet a "snap" like Dish.
I also take back blanket "clear winner" and replace it with conditional "clear winner to me". I don't miss any of the TiVo features and I really like additional features that HR20 has. But what is important to me may not be important to other people.


----------



## tividiot

sjberra said:


> could that not be the same statement for you - you tout the fact that your HR10 is working perfectly, but there are a lot of people - myself included - that are having massive problems with that unit also. So where is the difference?


I have never mention an HR10. Don't even own one. You are confusing me with someone else.


----------



## tividiot

jimb726 said:


> It is however a fact that people with issues are about 4 times more likely to complain, post, etc, than people without any problems.


Let's say for a minute that your "fact" truly is a fact. Why do some products attract glowing, gushing reviews on various consumer review sites (Amazon, Cnet, eOpinions, CircuitCity, etc)? Are these products simply better, with fewer bugs? If people with issues are 4 times more likely to complain and post than the people who have no issues and actually like a product, then the products that are highly rated by customers must be truly incredible indeed. And products that draw intensely negative reviews from customers must be even worse than imagined.



jimb726 said:


> Your statements about the continuous and ongoing problems being reported over at dbstalk.com, although true are not put into context, many are from the same people with the same problem getting help from other people who either do not have the problem or have been helping others work there way through the issues.


There are repeat posters on any issue. That's true. However, if you've monitored dbstalk on the HR20 in particular, you will see a nearly daily steady stream of new posts from new users who create new threads seeking to see if the bug they're experiencing is a known one: audio dropouts, missed recordings, recordings that won't play, recordings that become corrupt, etc. I've seen few bug threads created by someone who has previously complained and can attest I have never done so myself.


----------



## johnd01

I broke an HDVR2:
While I was swapping drives on my HDVR2 I must have hit the panel to PCB ribbon cable. I powered up and did not have a TV display. Powered down and reseated the cable. Now my remote does not work.

Is there a worthwhile fix?

DT said they would send out a replacement. The sent a DirecTV Plus.
They say it is my unit because it is replacing a unit I have. One of the Drive mounting screws was rattling around so I called and ask them if I could open the box. I was told just do not hurt yourself. It has a 160 GB drive.
Is there a discussion group on the Plus?

The R15 seems to search for people. does it recored everthing they are in or just the ones that come up on the search and then you have to search again in 2 week?


----------



## Lord Vader

johnd01 said:


> I broke an HDVR2:
> While I was swapping drives on my HDVR2 I must have hit the panel to PCB ribbon cable. I powered up and did not have a TV display. Powered down and reseated the cable. Now my remote does not work.
> 
> Is there a worthwhile fix?


Indeed there is. See this thread for more information:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=105719&highlight=Warning+circuit


----------



## eapeas

Just want to make sure I understand this:

I'm about to switch to D* and as for HD DVR's I have 2 choices: HR10 or HR20.

The HR10 will NOT allow me to view/record the MPEG4 HD (eventually all HD from D*), but it is a TiVO interface, right?

The HR20 will allow me to view/record two MPEG4 HD programs at the same time, but no TiVO interface, right?

These are THE ONLY 2 choices that I have, if I choose to go with D*, correct? And nothing else is in the pipeline?


----------



## Scott Stevens

Right, only you can't really "choose" the HR10. DTV will lease and install the HR20. If you want to add an HR10 you'll have to buy one third party from eBay/weaknees/etc.. As far as DirecTv sales is concerned the HR10 does not even exist anymore.



eapeas said:


> Just want to make sure I understand this:
> 
> I'm about to switch to D* and as for HD DVR's I have 2 choices: HR10 or HR20.
> 
> The HR10 will NOT allow me to view/record the MPEG4 HD (eventually all HD from D*), but it is a TiVO interface, right?
> 
> The HR20 will allow me to view/record two MPEG4 HD programs at the same time, but no TiVO interface, right?
> 
> These are THE ONLY 2 choices that I have, if I choose to go with D*, correct? And nothing else is in the pipeline?


----------



## eapeas

Scott Stevens said:


> Right, only you can't really "choose" the HR10. DTV will lease and install the HR20. If you want to add an HR10 you'll have to buy one third party from eBay/weaknees/etc.. As far as DirecTv sales is concerned the HR10 does not even exist anymore.


Oh, I'm aware of this, as for 3rd party goes, but, as was said in Friends, "It's a cow's opinion....it's moo".

I have to be able to have access to MPEG4's...*sigh*

But, just to make sure I was clear on one point: the HR20 DOES have dual tuners, so it can record two HD, two SD, or one and one, at the same time, right?


----------



## Bonanzaair

eapeas said:


> But, just to make sure I was clear on one point: the HR20 DOES have dual tuners, so it can record two HD, two SD, or one and one, at the same time, right?


Yes it does - but consider this. I have decided to stay with Tivo - DirecTV is only my current provider of content. Tivo has announced that a lower priced HD box will be their focus this year expect to have the box out by Aug or Sept. While I don't expect the box to be directly supported by satellite I also don't think that Tivo will not have some way of getting at that satellite content. Until then, I am using the H20 and SA Tivos in my house. The H20 provides live content, while the Tivo uses a standard def DirecTV receiver to record programing. Since I am using a Tivo, I also have access to the new features of Tivo such as the Kids Zone, Product Watch, Amazon Movie Downloads and TivoCast.

While this is a stop cap measure I will have my options open next year when the dust settles and not tied to a two year commitment to any content provider. I also get to stay with the award winning Tivo interface.

Bonanza


----------



## Lord Vader

eapeas said:


> the HR20 DOES have dual tuners, so it can record two HD, two SD, or one and one, at the same time, right?


While it does have dual tuners, it does NOT have dual live buffers, which for many people is a huge issue.


----------



## cheer

Bonanzaair said:


> Yes it does - but consider this. I have decided to stay with Tivo - DirecTV is only my current provider of content. Tivo has announced that a lower priced HD box will be their focus this year expect to have the box out by Aug or Sept. While I don't expect the box to be directly supported by satellite I also don't think that Tivo will not have some way of getting at that satellite content.


Then you're wrong. There's no way the new standalone Tivos will work in HD with satellite. They won't be DirecTivos, so they won't have satellite tuning hardware, and there's no reasonable way for them to get the video in HD from a separate satellite box.

For DirecTV customers, for the foreseeable future, the ONLY choice (other than used) is the HR20. Stop deluding yourself.


----------



## pmturcotte

Lord Vader said:


> While it does have dual tuners, it does NOT have dual live buffers, which for many people is a huge issue.


+ 1. I also think when most people hear it has dual tuners the assume thats the same thing as DLB then they post on dbs in agony when they find out it is clearly not the same thing.


----------



## cheer

samo said:


> I'm a 30 sec skip guy, so overshoot compensation is not really important to me. But I do concede, I wish 30 sec "slip" that HR20 has was a true skip like TiVo or better yet a "snap" like Dish.
> I also take back blanket "clear winner" and replace it with conditional "clear winner to me". I don't miss any of the TiVo features and I really like additional features that HR20 has. But what is important to me may not be important to other people.


Exactly, and this is a point that many people miss IMO. (Put aside the discussions about reliability -- we don't have any decent statistics on either platform; just anecdotal evidence from forums.)

I've gotten used to overshoot compensation for the most part, but there are times when it makes me crazy. From years of using VCRs (remember those?) I have a natural tendency to manually compensate, which I've had to suppress. All well and good, except sometimes overshoot compensation OVERcompensates...in other words, sometimes my reflexes kick in too fast, one way or the other. Also, on my HR10-250, sometimes it just doesn't compensate at all. This seems to mostly happen when the box is "burdened" -- if I'm watching an HD show while at least one HD show is recording, the box isn't nearly as responsive in general, and sometimes I'll fast forward through the commercial, hit play, and it won't rewind AT ALL. But overall I can live with this...or without it. (Worse would be having some boxes that did this and some that did not. That would drive me crazy.)

I never use 30 sec skip, and I rarely use dual buffers. Losing either one would not be a big deal to me.

On the other hand, I use wishlists. I like the Tivo interface a lot. And, most critical to me...I use the hackability. If I give up my HR10, I'll miss that the most. Yet many of you likely don't even have hacked HR10s, and would never miss that functionality.

So to say that either box is a "clear winner" in features is just asinine. Learn the difference between fact and opinion, please.


----------



## bidger

I notice the thread starter, raven540, has had very little to contribute after starting this thread. Makes me wonder if it's not just a sh*t stirrer thread, start what one knows will be a heated topic just to watch what happens.


----------



## Lord Vader

So? I do that all the time. The Sith are experts at that.


----------



## Budget_HT

cheer said:


> ...Also, on my HR10-250, sometimes it just doesn't compensate at all. This seems to mostly happen when the box is "burdened" -- if I'm watching an HD show while at least one HD show is recording, the box isn't nearly as responsive in general, and sometimes I'll fast forward through the commercial, hit play, and it won't rewind AT ALL...


I have discovered that my HD TiVo does not compensate (backup) after a "single click" (one green arrow) fast forward operation. But it does always compensate when I use 2-click or 3-click fast forward.

I don't know if it has always been that way or not. I almost always use 2-click fast forward when breezing through commercials, so I always expect the compensation to be there (and it always is there).

I suspect other folks have known this for a long time, but I just realized this a few weeks ago.


----------



## Sir_winealot

Budget_HT said:


> I don't know if it has always been that way or not.


As far as I know it has always been like that.


----------



## PRMan

I don't like the overshoot compensation. Then I have to see what happens before it happens. 

Also, I have very quick reflexes. I can start skipping a commercial block, see the show and end up BEFORE I started.

30 second skip all the way. Won't buy anything without it.


----------



## reh523

PRMan said:


> I don't like the overshoot compensation. Then I have to see what happens before it happens.
> 
> Also, I have very quick reflexes. I can start skipping a commercial block, see the show and end up BEFORE I started.
> 
> 30 second skip all the way. Won't buy anything without it.


30 second skip will be going away from all CC DVR's without hacks.... The best one I have found has been MCE DVR-MST Toolbox Totaly removes commercials from playback. Want to watch the show.. put down the remote.


----------



## designr

Budget_HT said:


> I have discovered that my HD TiVo does not compensate (backup) after a "single click" (one green arrow) fast forward operation. But it does always compensate when I use 2-click or 3-click fast forward.
> 
> I don't know if it has always been that way or not. I almost always use 2-click fast forward when breezing through commercials, so I always expect the compensation to be there (and it always is there).
> 
> I suspect other folks have known this for a long time, but I just realized this a few weeks ago.


Use the Stop button, followed by Play, at any fast forward speed to eliminate compensation.

Use the 30-second skip trick < select-play-select-3-0-select > (you'll hear 3 dings if it works) while playing a recording (not live TV) to change the skip to end into a 30-second skip forward. The skip back is 7.5 seconds. If you do the math, a 5 minute commercial break is 10 skips forward and 1 or 2 skips back.


----------



## Bonanzaair

cheer said:


> For DirecTV customers, for the foreseeable future, the ONLY choice (other than used) is the HR20. Stop deluding yourself.


You can't see more than 6 to 9 months? As I said I'll re-evalute my options in a year after the new HD Tivo arrives. Until then, Yes, I have a standard def receiver signal from my SA Tivo for my recorded programs - HD for when I am watching the program as it is broadcast through my H20. I'll have access to all the new DirecTV HD programming, TivoCAST, Amazon Movie Downloads, and an award winning DVR interface to use. This is my solution to DirecTV and their DVR+ product which has been wildly panned in about every place that the +product is discussed.

Remember ....you'll have to look long and hard for a DVR with an award winning interface better than Tivo. Content providers like DirecTV will be a dime a dozen soon enough.

Bonanza


----------



## jimbra

bidger said:


> I notice the thread starter, raven540, has had very little to contribute after starting this thread. Makes me wonder if it's not just a sh*t stirrer thread, start what one knows will be a heated topic just to watch what happens.


Or you work as "Mole" for DirectV and I think that is what your up to, as a matter of "Fact" I know thats what your all about,

Care to Tango?


----------



## pacific85

Hey Bonanza,

The SA Series 3 Tivo records compressed OTA HD signal. The HR10-250 can record the compressed HD Sat signals or compressed OTA HD signals. The compression happens at the head ends (TV Stations or at the DTV uplinks). 

It sounds like you might expect to be able to record a uncompressed HD signal in the nearish future. I'm wondering what leads you to think that Tivo is going to be able to offer a less expensive HD box capable of recording an uncompressed HD signal?

Compressing a HD signal in real time requires a lot of processing power. It's very expensive hardware. I doubt that we're going to be able to buy it this year for any kind of reasonable price. Plus, I doubt if the studios would be very happy if the average joe could recompress their signal. It would be too easy to pirate HD shows from any source.

So, I think you may want to rethink your wait and see plan if you want some kind of HD DVR functionality. I'm happy with my HR10-250 for now, but if DTV only provides new HD channels in MPEG 4, I may be forced to switch to the HR20. I'm not looking forward to that, so if you have a better solution. I'm all ears.


----------



## Bonanzaair

pacific85 said:


> Hey Bonanza,
> 
> I'm wondering what leads you to think that Tivo is going to be able to offer a less expensive HD box capable of recording an uncompressed HD signal?


I don't know ...maybe from Tom Rogers at Monday's JPMorgan Global Internet Conference or today's Citigroup Small & Mid-Cap Conference where Steve Sordello will be speaking.

http://investor.tivo.com/calendar-detail.cfm?EventID=35441

Tom said it was Tivo's focus this year to get an HD box out that the mass consumer would be interested in purchasing at Best Buy or Circuit City during the holiday season. The S3 $799 purchase price had Tivo losing sales. I can wait six to nine months.

Bonanza


----------



## bonscott87

Bonanzaair said:


> I don't know ...maybe from Tom Rogers at Monday's JPMorgan Global Internet Conference or today's Citigroup Small & Mid-Cap Conference where Steve Sordello will be speaking.
> 
> http://investor.tivo.com/calendar-detail.cfm?EventID=35441
> 
> Tom said it was Tivo's focus this year to get an HD box out that the mass consumer would be interested in purchasing at Best Buy or Circuit City during the holiday season. The S3 $799 purchase price had Tivo losing sales. I can wait six to nine months.
> 
> Bonanza


It will be no different then the S3 today in functionality, just cheaper. You still won't be able to use it with DirecTV to record HD from DirecTV. So you won't be gaining anything over the setup you have today (other then OTA HD recording or if you go to cable). Tivo's HD boxes, S3 or this new one are for OTA and cable only. And as cable starts moving to Switched Video...


----------



## Bonanzaair

bonscott87 said:


> It will be no different then the S3 today in functionality, just cheaper. You still won't be able to use it with DirecTV to record HD from DirecTV. So you won't be gaining anything over the setup you have today (other then OTA HD recording or if you go to cable). Tivo's HD boxes, S3 or this new one are for OTA and cable only. And as cable starts moving to Switched Video...


Geez! The new Tivo HD product isn't even out the door! Have you seen the specs? Until then, it' s your guess as much as mine. I'll wait the 6-9months to find out. If you check my original message I said I would re-evaluate then. Until then I have

DirecTV new HD programming, TivoCAST, Amazon Downloads, Kids Zone, Product Watch and the award winning Tivo DVR. I've waited this long for DTV to get more than the basic HD content - now I'll wait to see what Tivo has going. DTV will be fine! Apparently they aren't interested in really keeping me happy. You have to look out for yourself in the world.

Again - Tivo stays at my house.....it's the content provider that can be replaced!

Bonanza


----------



## 20TIL6

"Again - Tivo stays at my house.....it's the content provider that can be replaced!"

I've said this before as well. No matter how the industry has tried to say DVRs are a commodity...

DVRs are NOT the commodity. The pipe is the commodity. OTA, Cable, Sat, Fiber, Broadband. As the pipes compete for business, they will strive for common content. It will be things LIKE DVRs that differentiate them.


----------



## lew

That's only true for a small number of customers, many of us are members of TCF. The marketplace as shown DVRs are a commodity.

I wonder how much cheaper the S3 would be if tivo got rid of the ability to record OTA and just went with the cablecard.



20TIL6 said:


> "Again - Tivo stays at my house.....it's the content provider that can be replaced!"
> 
> I've said this before as well. No matter how the industry has tried to say DVRs are a commodity...
> 
> DVRs are NOT the commodity. The pipe is the commodity. OTA, Cable, Sat, Fiber, Broadband. As the pipes compete for business, they will strive for common content. It will be things LIKE DVRs that differentiate them.


----------



## 20TIL6

lew said:


> That's only true for a small number of customers, many of us are members of TCF. The marketplace as shown DVRs are a commodity.
> 
> I wonder how much cheaper the S3 would be if tivo got rid of the ability to record OTA and just went with the cablecard.


 I should have prefaced my comments as a forward looking statement.

I think that the increasing competition between all the pipes will force these competitors to look for differentiation. This same industry that has maligned the DVR as a commodity, to quickly capture market share and retain customers, will begin highlighting their DVR offerings as more feature rich than the others. Competing on price will only get you so far.


----------



## Bonanzaair

lew said:


> The marketplace as shown DVRs are a commodity.


Until now that statement was true. Tivo downloads content from the Internet to the TV and with Amazon Movie Downloads and Amazon marketing power the marketplace could be changing. The Tivo/Amazon deal is not exclusive....can anyone say Walmart or NetFlix?

The world is looking to download content to the TV. Tivo is the only true solution at this time - everyone else is playing catch-up!

Bonanza


----------



## lew

Cable and FiOS are competing against satellite by providing "bundle discounts" for customers that add internet and phone.

The Comcast/tivo partnership may give us some idea how many customes are willing to pay a premium for tivo.



20TIL6 said:


> I should have prefaced my comments as a forward looking statement.
> 
> I think that the increasing competition between all the pipes will force these competitors to look for differentiation. This same industry that has maligned the DVR as a commodity, to quickly capture market share and retain customers, will begin highlighting their DVR offerings as more feature rich than the others. Competing on price will only get you so far.


----------



## bonscott87

Bonanzaair said:


> Geez! The new Tivo HD product isn't even out the door! Have you seen the specs? Until then, it' s your guess as much as mine. I'll wait the 6-9months to find out. If you check my original message I said I would re-evaluate then. Until then I have
> 
> DirecTV new HD programming, TivoCAST, Amazon Downloads, Kids Zone, Product Watch and the award winning Tivo DVR. I've waited this long for DTV to get more than the basic HD content - now I'll wait to see what Tivo has going. DTV will be fine! Apparently they aren't interested in really keeping me happy. You have to look out for yourself in the world.
> 
> Again - Tivo stays at my house.....it's the content provider that can be replaced!
> 
> Bonanza


You obviously don't understand that Tivo won't have an HD encoder in it's box to make it at all affordable let alone an HDMI *input* to accept an HD signal from a receiver. Even the S3 doesn't have this. Thus my comment that no matter what type of Tivo HD product they have, it can't record HD content from satellite. If you believe it will, well, I've got this great bridge to sell you.


----------



## maharg18

Bonanzaair said:


> Geez! The new Tivo HD product isn't even out the door! Have you seen the specs? Until then, it' s your guess as much as mine. I'll wait the 6-9months to find out.


HD encoding from either a component or HDMI source would cost a fortune, as those both are uncompressed signals. There's a reason why there is not currently a DVR that offers this, and likely won't be one for quite some time.


----------



## 20TIL6

"The Comcast/tivo partnership may give us some idea how many customes are willing to pay a premium for tivo."

I agree.


----------



## Bonanzaair

bonscott87 said:


> You obviously don't understand that Tivo won't have an HD encoder in it's box to make it at all affordable let alone an HDMI *input* to accept an HD signal from a receiver. Even the S3 doesn't have this. Thus my comment that no matter what type of Tivo HD product they have, it can't record HD content from satellite. If you believe it will, well, I've got this great bridge to sell you.


I guess I don't see why your getting all worked up.

All I said is I've waited for DTV to deliver a product I was interested in having and they didn't so I'm looking around. I'll visit the issue again next year.

AGAIN - At this time I believe that having an H20 and a SA Tivo provides me with the best value. If it is as you say and Tivo doesn't offer a product that will be able to handle a satellite signal then I guess I look for a different content provider. Until Tivo can be beaten on it's feature set I'll stay their customer. DirecTV will have to go. The HD picture is important, so are 100 channels of HD content, but it's not the whole story here.

Amazon Downloads/TivoCAST/KidsZone/Product Watch! - Tivo Rocks!

Calm Down - I'll post my decision next year. DirecTV will be ok without my $100 a month - should that happen.

Bonanza


----------



## bonscott87

Bonanzaair said:


> I guess I don't see why your getting all worked up.


Who's worked up? Simply clarifying your post that you're not going to be able to do what you want with a stand alone Tivo. Nothing more.

Cheers.


----------



## Bonanzaair

maharg18 said:


> HD encoding from either a component or HDMI source would cost a fortune, as those both are uncompressed signals. There's a reason why there is not currently a DVR that offers this, and likely won't be one for quite some time.


I understand that. Thank-you!

Bonanza


----------



## bidger

jimbra said:


> Or you work as "Mole" for DirectV and I think that is what your up to, as a matter of "Fact" I know thats what your all about,
> 
> Care to Tango?


Back it up by pointing out posts I've made advising TiVo owners to abandon their DVR platform.


----------



## jimbra

MichaelK said:


> "sunk costs" are never a good business reason to do anything (well probably not personally either- I had a friend once who didn't really seem to enjoy his Fiance. I asked him why the hell he was getting married and he told me "Becasue I've invested so much time in the relationship already"- I tried to talk him out of it to no avail. When she moved out 3 months after the marriage and cleaned out their house I did loan him an old Tivo- LOL....)
> 
> That said- I think probably the proper "business" decision was to kill off the relationship with tivo. Even as a buck each it was 3or 4 million a month 30 million or more a year. I can see why they bailed. They can get a DVR that is "good enough" withoug having to pay tivo.


Your full of crap,

PLAIN AND SIMPLE


----------



## fjwagner

you're or your?


----------



## Redux

fjwagner said:


> you're or your?


His, I think.


----------



## Solver

This CIO really likes his Directv TiVo. Good press for DTV and TiVo (except that they don't provide them anymore.)

http://www.forbes.com/2007/04/11/re...-personal-cx_de_0412dvr.html?partner=yahootix


----------



## Bonanzaair

"There are some interactive controls available on the dish that do not work with my TiVo" 

STILL HE STICKS WITH TIVO! 

Doesn't say much for the DirecTV DVR+ Interactive offerings, and that from a "regular" customer, not a person that frequents the TivoCommunity/DBSTalk/etc...Boards. The average customers do prefer Tivo....you see it time and time again. 

STILL HE STICKS WITH TIVO! 


Bonanza


----------



## Sir_winealot

You sure he's not talking about the HR20 (which is pictured)?


----------



## Bonanzaair

Sir_winealot said:


> You sure he's not talking about the HR20 (which is pictured)?


Silly Sir_winealot ...everyone knows the DVR+ has all the interactive features available! That's DirecTV's main calling card for switching....those wonderful new features. Give it up!

STILL HE STICKS WITH TIVO!

Bonanza


----------



## ebonovic

Bonanzaair said:


> Silly Sir_winealot ...everyone knows the DVR+ has all the interactive features available! That's DirecTV's main calling card for switching....those wonderful new features. Give it up!
> 
> STILL HE STICKS WITH TIVO!
> 
> Bonanza


Actually... there are some of the Interactive features that Don't work with the HR20 (Such as Game Lounge).

And also given the stated price: $199 after rebate... there is no where you can find that particular price for an HR10.

Hence the reason why I asked the question over at DBSTalk...
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=85200

Are we sure he is talking about a TiVo... or is he using a "TiVo" to refer to a DVR


----------



## Bonanzaair

ebonovic said:


> Actually........


I mean this with love and all........but didn't you, just a month or so back, make a big deal about leaving TivoCommunity for a more understanding message board like DBSTalk?

Welcome back!

I'm sure the HR20 interactive feature the guy was missing was the "Game Lounge". So on top of all the other important DVR issues with the HR20, DirecTV doesn't support GAME LOUNGE? Yeeks! I guess DirecTV has it's hands full trying to make the HR20 stable. I thank God I went with a SA Tivo till this whole DTV/Dish/Tivo thing gets settled.

Earl - Again - Welcome back!

Bonanza


----------



## Sir_winealot

Bonanzaair said:


> Silly Sir_winealot ...everyone knows the DVR+ has all the interactive features available! That's DirecTV's main calling card for switching....those wonderful new features. Give it up!
> 
> Bonanza


"Give it up?" Are you inferring that I'm attempting to give endorsement to the HR20 rather than to TiVo?

If so, you are utterly clueless....


----------



## ebonovic

Bonanzaair said:


> I mean this with love and all........but didn't you, just a month or so back, make a big deal about leaving TivoCommunity for a more understanding message board like DBSTalk?
> 
> Welcome back!
> 
> I'm sure the HR20 interactive feature the guy was missing was the "Game Lounge". So on top of all the other important DVR issues with the HR20, DirecTV doesn't support GAME LOUNGE? Yeeks! I guess DirecTV has it's hands full trying to make the HR20 stable. I thank God I went with a SA Tivo till this whole DTV/Dish/Tivo thing gets settled.
> 
> Earl - Again - Welcome back!
> 
> Bonanza


Yes I did... and I didn't completely leavet... Still pop in everyonce and a while...
But nothing close to the same level I participated before..

I will continue in the same fashion...


----------



## Bonanzaair

ebonovic said:


> Yes I did... and I didn't completely leavet... Still pop in everyonce and a while...
> But nothing close to the same level I participated before..
> 
> I will continue in the same fashion...


Cool!

I thought your posting was a quiet return to the TivoCommunity prompted by a thaw in the DTV/Tivo relationship I see coming.

Oh well!

Bonanza


----------



## ChofuHS

jimbra said:


> Your full of crap,
> 
> PLAIN AND SIMPLE


edited: I edited this and one other response to jimbra after reading all his posts. TROLL.


----------



## TyroneShoes

maharg18 said:


> HD encoding from either a component or HDMI source would cost a fortune, as those both are uncompressed signals. There's a reason why there is not currently a DVR that offers this, and likely won't be one for quite some time.


There IS a reason, but it has little or nothing to do with the signals being uncompressed.

"Compressed" implies encoding already, so of course all signals that would be ripe for encoding would be uncompressed, as is always the case. Video can't be encoded if it is already compressed, because compression is a part of the encoding process.

HD component requires digitizing as well as MPEG encoding, while HD over HDMI requires only MPEG encoding. While these processes at the consumer level have not broken out of the "chicken-egg" cycle as of yet, the technology is readily available outside the consumer world, and the costs are not that high, and dropping sharply.

Potential availability for consumers? that's something else again. The reasons why you won't see the ability to encode HD video at the consumer level anytime soon has little to do with the technical/economic hurdles and everything to do with content access concerns. The MPAA and every other content provider would be very skeptical of a consumer device that could make pristine digital copies from digital sources, so HDMI is probably not ever going to be a protocol available as an input to a widely-available consumer HD DVR or HD DVDR. Should one come out, they would likely do everything in their power to squash it. This is the same reason the only inputs to SD DVDRs are analog, and the only inputs to HD DVRs are ATSC/QAM/DVB.


----------



## Bonanzaair

TyroneShoes said:


> There IS a reason, but it has little or nothing to do with the signals being uncompressed.
> 
> "Compressed" implies encoding already, so of course all signals that would be ripe for encoding would be uncompressed, as is always the case. Video can't be encoded if it is already compressed, because compression is a part of the encoding process.
> 
> HD component requires digitizing as well as MPEG encoding, while HD over HDMI requires only MPEG encoding. While these processes at the consumer level have not broken out of the "chicken-egg" cycle as of yet, the technology is readily available outside the consumer world, and the costs are not that high, and dropping sharply.
> 
> Potential availability for consumers? that's something else again. The reasons why you won't see the ability to encode HD video at the consumer level anytime soon has little to do with the technical/economic hurdles and everything to do with content access concerns. The MPAA and every other content provider would be very skeptical of a consumer device that could make pristine digital copies from digital sources, so HDMI is probably not ever going to be a protocol available as an input to a widely-available consumer HD DVR or HD DVDR. Should one come out, they would likely do everything in their power to squash it. This is the same reason the only inputs to SD DVDRs are analog, and the only inputs to HD DVRs are ATSC/QAM/DVB.


Thanks for posting this!

Bonanza


----------



## newsposter

i love rumors...gives us reasons to bump threads

http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2007/09/wild-rumor-dire.html

Wild rumor: DirecTV reps claiming TiVo coming to DirecTV DVRs


----------



## Mark Lopez

newsposter said:


> i love rumors...gives us reasons to bump threads


Especially when it says "this as a wild rumor that is likely untrue, but *with about a 1% chance of happening*" Now we get to have the Tivo zealots all worked up again with this 'proof'.


----------



## Sir_winealot

Mark Lopez said:


> Especially when it says "this as a wild rumor that is likely untrue, but *with about a 1% chance of happening*" Now we get to have the Tivo zealots all worked up again with this 'proof'.


While the "Anti TiVo" regime (all one of them  ) continues attempting to get the natives all restless and worked up again with meaningless disparaging comments.


You go girl.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Sir_winealot said:


> While the "Anti TiVo" regime (all one of them  ) continues attempting to get the natives all restless and worked up again with meaningless disparaging comments.


On the contrary, I'm as much pro-Tivo as any 'sane' person. What I am is 'Anti let's bash anything that isn't a Tivo even if I've never used it'. 

And apparently it did get you worked up.


----------



## newsposter

i already have my preorder in


----------



## RS4

Mark Lopez said:


> Especially when it says "this as a wild rumor that is likely untrue, but *with about a 1% chance of happening*" Now we get to have the Tivo zealots all worked up again with this 'proof'.


Mark, it seems quite obvious that you don't want a follow-on product from Tivo, but many of the rest of us do. I think the odds are pushing in our favor now, because of the recent announcements from DirecTV and Tivo.

I've gotten emails, messages on my Tivos, and even phone calls from DirecTV telling me that my series 2 machines are being updated, and as a part of that, there is an 'oh by the way' that they are 'exploring' other opportunities. That is a very strong signal to me that there is a good chance something will be announced soon. I don't ever recall getting so much notice for some upgrade of a dead product before. 

On top of that, I was reading in the other forum on DTivos where a gentleman said that he was having an issue with a bill from DirecTV. He said that someone from the Executive office called him. In their conversation, she (the exec) mentioned that DirecTV would be announcing another Tivo product within the next few months. So, that is another source within DirecTV unless it was meant to be a hoax.

Time will tell, but I'm hoping we hear something by the first quarter of next year.


----------



## gdomeier

I emailed Dtv last week about the possibility. I wouldn't expect front line csr to know if anything is coming in the next month, but you never know. I decided to switch to tivoHD.

_Thanks for writing about your preferred DIRECTV Equipment. First of all, I would like to acknowledge you for being with us since 2003 and we recognize you as a valued and loyal customer. We want you to know we appreciate it. I understand you have some questions if we would offer HD TiVo Service. I'm more than happy to assist you with this.

After extensive research, it shows that we currently do not have plans of offering HD TiVo Services. Recently, TiVo announced changes to their service that will affect the TiVo stand alone boxes. We have no additional information on the changes to the TiVo features or what effect, if any, they will have on the DIRECTV DVR with TiVo service.

For your reference, the upcoming software download for DIRECTV with TiVo receivers, currently planned for early 2008, will provide enhancements for the Series 2 TiVo platform. Customers with a DIRECTV with TiVo Series 2 receiver will be getting enhancements, including a Recently Deleted Folder and Overlap Protection, as well as access to DIRECTVs Remote Booking feature.

Our goal is to continue to expand our programming and technology offerings, in order to bring you the best television entertainment experience available.

Should you have further questions, please call us at 1-800-531-5000. I have noted your account so that our technical support specialists can assist you immediately.

I hope you find this information helpful. Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information about our services.

Sincerely,_


----------



## Randyman...

I was listening to Leo Laporte's "The Tech Guy" podcast from Saturday Sept 8th (from twit.tv), and he also indicated that DTV is back in bed with TiVo!

So, what's the deal? I guess this is still speculation at best? I'll be in the market for a DTV HD TiVo soon (4-6 Months), so this might be fantastic news...

Thanks for any updates/confirmations


----------



## bigpuma

If you read through this thread you will see that they have an agreement to upgrade the software for the current DTivos. However there is no announcement for a new HD Tivo that can handle Mpeg-4. It is still unlikely that we will ever see one so if you want to get the new channels in HD via direcTV you will have to go with the non TiVo DVR from DirecTV.


----------



## Randyman...

"I can hold my breath for a very long time" (Creepshow)



I searched for this, and I ran across this thread, but I didn't have time to read the whole thing (just the first 2 pages from Feb, and the last page with the "Bump" to see what was "current" as of September).

That is certainly NOT what I was expecting (Leo Laporte made it sound like DTV ad TiVo kissed and made up recently - like just this month). I assumed that meant MPEG-4 TiVo's were on the way 

Oh well. Still holding my breath (I'm optimistic this will pan out in our favor).


----------



## Redux

Randyman... said:


> Leo Laporte made it sound like DTV ad TiVo kissed and made up


It's going to be a lot more complicated than that. DirecTV has new owners. Old management is fighting for survival. Some staked careers on agreeing that getting rid of Tivo was a _great_ idea, and they cannot reverse. "The Murdoch _made_ me do it" will not fly as an excuse.

Obviously one way is if Tivo can re-define a whole new relationship. Then nodody at DirecTV will have to admit to the collosal blunder, they can declare victory, say this is a whole _new_ deal with Tivo and move on to a newer and better HiDef DTivo.


----------



## Idearat

With my zippered DirecTiVos, including an unsubbed "slave" unit I wouldn't be in any hurry to get this new upgrade when it's available next year. So the official announcement didn't get me excited in itself.

An MPEG4 capable HD DirecTivo would have my order in the day it was announced though.


----------



## Redux

Idearat said:


> With my zippered DirecTiVos ... I wouldn't be in any hurry to get this new upgrade when it's available next year. So the official announcement didn't get me excited in itself.
> 
> An MPEG4 capable HD DirecTivo would have my order in the day it was announced though.


It's really amazing, isn't it. When I look at the value of what I've got right now, buying a HiDef Mpeg4 DTivo would make absolutely no sense. But lots of idiots like us would buy them in an instant. Hard to figure out if anybody at DirecTV understands this.

The hacking audience, OTOH, is a very limited market. For them, sure the upgrade is nothing they haven't had for years. But hopefully it's an indicator of a return to sanity.


----------



## ebockelman

Idearat said:


> With my zippered DirecTiVos, including an unsubbed "slave" unit I wouldn't be in any hurry to get this new upgrade when it's available next year. So the official announcement didn't get me excited in itself.
> 
> An MPEG4 capable HD DirecTivo would have my order in the day it was announced though.


This is one of the issues with the Zipper. It makes theft of Tivo service way too easy.


----------



## milominderbinder

I think this is the source of these rumors:DIRECTV and TiVo Partnership

_...Launching in early 2008, the new software download will provide these customers with DVR enhancements offered with the TiVo service, including a *Recently Deleted Folder and Overlap Protection, as well as DIRECTV's Remote Booking feature.* In addition, DIRECTV and TiVo will continue to explore ways to bring future enhancements to DIRECTV customers with TiVo receivers. _

What motivation does DIRECTV have to give a contract to TiVo?

DIRECTV already has access to TiVo's technology for 3 more years. Why buy the cow if you already own the milk.

Instead of a 4 month development time for TiVo tweaks, DIRECTV is now able to deliver upgrades almost weekly.

And no matter what you are being told, the HR10 hardware can't be converted to the new MPEG4. It is a hardware issue just like a Black and White TV cannot be "reprogrammed" to be color.

- Craig


----------



## dscott72

When are the "keys" to DirecTv officially turned over to the new owners?


----------



## wolflord11

The HR10's cannot be converted to MPeg 4. it requires a Hardware Mod, and NO Software will fix that issue. So when Directv do switch over to all MPeg4 then its good bye HR10.

Oh well, get over it people. Technology changes.

Directv and Tivo getting back together, yea maybe a 0.01 percent chance. Personally I cannot see the point of it. It aint worth it just to get the Tivo Software back on a Directv box. 

As for MRV and TivotoGo, Directv is still working on their own Version of that, and I am sure that will be up and running way before Directv and tivo re-unite.

Tivo has moved on to the Cable Companies now, and turned their backs upon us loyal Directv and Tivo users. Personally I would rather deal with One Company, and not have to go thru all the Directv/Tivo happenings again.


----------



## gdomeier

One reason dtv may get back with tivo would be lost subscribers. I am leaving dtv because I want hd and tivo. If that happens enough, then they may re-establish their parternship.


----------



## Billy66

gdomeier, there is no indication that your group represents a significant number to DirecTv. I don't know, but I would modestly wager that DTV will gain customers through their transition to MPEG4. They recognize that to the high majority of their customers, programming is what is important and the DVR is a commodity.

The subset of TiVo loyalists will simply be an acceptable loss for larger gains.


----------



## 20TIL6

<<Tivo has moved on to the Cable Companies now, and turned their backs upon us loyal Directv and Tivo users.>>

Wow, as a former long-time DTV customer, I have a completely opposite perspective on that. I think it was DTV that turned its back on us loyal DTV and TiVo users. TiVo would have gained nothing from dissolving that relationship, in fact, they have lost a lot. DTV gained complete control of future revenues and margins by bringing DVR technology in-house. And that was their motivation in no longer marketing DTV/TiVo units, despite what their customers really wanted.

Simply, out of the 4.5 million or so TiVo users that exist today, 2.7 million are DTV/TiVo users. TiVo turning its back? How would that even make sense? TiVo being shut out....that makes more sense.


----------



## gdomeier

Billy66 said:


> gdomeier, there is no indication that your group represents a significant number to DirecTv. I don't know, but I would modestly wager that DTV will gain customers through their transition to MPEG4. They recognize that to the high majority of their customers, programming is what is important and the DVR is a commodity.
> 
> The subset of TiVo loyalists will simply be an acceptable loss for larger gains.


You could be right. I have no prefernce on what dtv chooses to do or not do RE tivo. I am ok with my switch. Who knows, hd may end up with a killer dvr in the future. I would switch back to them


----------



## 20TIL6

Billy66 said:


> gdomeier, there is no indication that your group represents a significant number to DirecTv. I don't know, but I would modestly wager that DTV will gain customers through their transition to MPEG4. They recognize that to the high majority of their customers, programming is what is important and the DVR is a commodity.
> 
> The subset of TiVo loyalists will simply be an acceptable loss for larger gains.


Why is DTV adding features to the DTV/TiVo S2 units? Those units have been stale for quite some time. I find the timing of it all just a bit interesting. What with the TiVo HD becoming available, and the Comcast/TiVo rollout around the corner.

Extending the life of devices that DTV would rather see completely orphaned sounds possibly like a defensive, retention strategy.

I think DTV is more than a little concerned about the loyalty of their DTV/TiVo user base. Still around 2.7 million I think.

And speaking of commodities, what has the better chance of becoming a commodity? A device that manages digital content, or the pipe that brings you the digital content? The faucet in my bathroom, or the plumbing that feeds water to my home?


----------



## AbMagFab

According to the quarterly Tivo report, DirecTV/Tivo subscribers are declining at a rate of about 100-150K per quarter. The question is - are most of those people who switch to DirecTV DVR's, or are they people leaving DirecTV completely?

Since you'd have to give up all your DirecTivo's to be recorded as a Tivo subscriber loss, I'm guessing these are mostly people leaving DirecTV completely. I'd wager it's about 65% people leaving, 35% people switching.

Once people get Tivo, most of them want to keep it. If they're going to be forced to switch the hardware, then your force them to look at all their options again for getting service. Once they do that, DirecTV looks pretty bad when compared to most major-market competitors (in terms of real offerings today, not future hype).

So DirecTV could indeed be concerned about their increased churn among Tivo subscribers.

If someone has breakdown data on the DirecTivo churn at DirecTV, please post it.


----------



## Cudahy

It's obviously in Directv's interest to offer the 2.5 million TivoSD subscribers an option (not to mention those with the HD10-250). 
We're still waiting for an official announcement about Malone talking over Directv. 
Malone is reportedly a Tivo fan. 
I find it strange that so many posters are still saying there is near zero chance for anything to come out of this.


----------



## ebonovic

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1038845&highlight=

Q2-2007:
900,000 Gross Subscriber Additions
Average Monthly Churn Rate: 1.58% (which is a small decrease from last year)
128,000 Net Subscriber Additions

Their Qtr numbers do not describe what segment the customer churn comes from, so their is no data to support the movement due to the DVR technology.

------------

IMHO: I think it is TiVo that is wanting the software update, and to keep the 2.5ish SD-DVR to stay out there and active, as there is little they can do to keep the bulk of the HR10-250's active.

As once the last TiVo leaves a DirecTV subscribers account, DirecTV no longer has to pay the "cut" of the service fee... and TiVo can no longer count that person as a TiVo subscriber.


----------



## dthreet

Ya I hope this happens. However tivo is going to have to something to keep there head above water. Since everyone is doing there own thing now and alot cheaper.


----------



## RS4

ebonovic said:


> http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1038845&highlight=
> 
> Q2-2007:
> 900,000 Gross Subscriber Additions
> Average Monthly Churn Rate: 1.58% (which is a small decrease from last year)
> 128,000 Net Subscriber Additions
> 
> Their Qtr numbers do not describe what segment the customer churn comes from, so their is no data to support the movement due to the DVR technology.
> 
> ------------
> 
> IMHO: I think it is TiVo that is wanting the software update, and to keep the 2.5ish SD-DVR to stay out there and active, as there is little they can do to keep the bulk of the HR10-250's active.
> 
> As once the last TiVo leaves a DirecTV subscribers account, DirecTV no longer has to pay the "cut" of the service fee... and TiVo can no longer count that person as a TiVo subscriber.


I read in the press where DirecTV did not gain as many subscribers as the market had anticipated. I think DirecTV even admitted that during the quarterly call. E* had 45000 more net subscribers than DirecTV did. Does that sound right when DirecTV is doing all this advertising about the upcoming channels? So while DirecTV is not losing, they also are not gaining what the investors market thought they should.

I'm glad the numbers aren't so good because it might apply more pressure to reconsider follow-on business with Tivo.


----------



## Lord Vader

They're not losing TIVO customers to Echostar, so where do you think those folks are going? DISH doesn't have a TIVO DVR, so it's not like DTIVO people are going to DISH en masse. They're either going to cable/FIOS or to DirecTV's own HD DVR, the HR20 series.


----------



## fasTLane

What this country needs, besides a seven cent nickel, is a Dishnetwork/Tivo box. That would get the ball rolling for ever'body.


----------



## RS4

Lord Vader said:


> They're not losing TIVO customers to Echostar, so where do you think those folks are going? DISH doesn't have a TIVO DVR, so it's not like DTIVO people are going to DISH en masse. They're either going to cable/FIOS or to DirecTV's own HD DVR, the HR20 series.


I didn't say they were losing customers. I said they weren't growing as fast as the investment market and other watchers had expected.  In fact, one article I read said that FIOS is gaining a lot of its customers from DirecTV and EchoStar compared to cable, so I'm assuming that a lot of the folks who do leave are going there.

I think a huge number of folks are in a wait and see attitude. They want to see what is going to happen and will wait a while. There is a lot going on with FIOS, SVD, DirecTV with the new channels, etc. So the next couple of years will offer a lot more HD. I believe a lot of Tivo users want a Tivo HD solution because everything they've read about to date has said that there is no superior Tivo replacement.


----------



## Lord Vader

That depends on how one defines the term "superior." 

I've got two HR10-250s and several HDVR2s on my account. I also have two HR20-700s and one HR20-100 DirecTV HD DVRs. Is the HR10-250 HD TIVO "superior" to the DTV HD DVR? No. Is it better? In some respects, yes; in others, no.

I have been and always will be a big fan of TIVO, but the new HD DVRs offer many additional features--VOD, interactive capabilities, gaming, etc.--that DirecTiVO does not. The main feature the HD DVRs lack is dual live buffer, which just happens to be a major feature/issue.

If DirecTV came out with an HD DVR based on and utilizing the TIVO platform, I'd go with that in a heartbeat. Until then, TIVO is becoming more and more a thing of the past with DirecTV.


----------



## MichaelK

wolflord11 said:


> ....
> Tivo has moved on to the Cable Companies now, and turned their backs upon us loyal Directv and Tivo users. Personally I would rather deal with One Company, and not have to go thru all the Directv/Tivo happenings again.


that's an interesting take on getting kicked to the curb...


----------



## Lord Vader

They haven't left DirecTV and its customers. Quite the contrary; they renewed their existing support relationship, and in early 2008, DirecTV will (finally!) be sending some extensive software and feature updates to the Series 2 DirecTiVO units.


----------



## milominderbinder

RS4 said:


> ...E* had 45000 more net subscribers than DirecTV did. Does that sound right when DirecTV is doing all this advertising about the upcoming channels?...


RS4, that is a good question.

DISH had 30-40 HD channels in Q2. DIRECTV had 9 HD channels.

Consumers don't care what you promise for futures. Instant gratification is everything.

So the interesting part was the DIRECTV was able to show any gain at all in that situation.

I think that the activity we have seen on this site is a good indicator that a big change is underway. I have called DISH several time in the past few weeks as I researched things. I could always get through instantly.

Last spring I could get straight through to DIRECTV as well. In my calls to DIRECTV over the past couple of weeks there was a dramatic change. As of last week I was on hold an average of 45 minutes. (Working out a new deal on a second HR20.)

I asked the DISH and DIRECTV CSR's how they were and how busy they were. DISH CSR's all said that they are having no hold times. The DIRECTV CSR's all said they were getting slammed with orders.

But that is all subjective. We will know the facts in October when the 10-Q's come out.

- Craig


----------



## ebonovic

DishNetwork is also partnered with AT&T and some of the other Tel-Co's, and is the TV Provider for a lot of the "tripple-play" offerrings.


----------



## TyroneShoes

Lord Vader said:


> ...I have been and always will be a big fan of TIVO, but the new HD DVRs offer many additional features--VOD, interactive capabilities, gaming, etc.--that DirecTiVO does not. The main feature the HD DVRs lack is dual live buffer, which just happens to be a major feature/issue...(


It's only my opinion, but to me the only core features are user-friendliness, reliability, expandability, low cost for hardware and DVR service, and integrated DVB and OTA. Everything else is superfluous. I don't need games or networkability or remote internet programming or anything as boring as interactive provides, that's for sure. Maybe those are selling points to some niche subs out there, or maybe I'm the niche sub. But I just want a box that works, that records HD. Other than the MPEG-4 channels, which so far are not tempting at all to me, the HR10 seems to be about the only thing that has all of those core features. Unfortunately, there's no heir apparent.


----------



## Billy66

You're right Tyrone, you are the niche.


----------



## sjberra

ebonovic said:


> DishNetwork is also partnered with AT&T and some of the other Tel-Co's, and is the TV Provider for a lot of the "tripple-play" offerrings.


And the Tel-Co's are going away from offering new subscriptions, AT&T with UVerse and Verizon with FIOS, so there is a loss for them


----------



## sjberra

TyroneShoes said:


> It's only my opinion, but to me the only core features are user-friendliness, reliability, expandability, low cost for hardware and DVR service, and integrated DVB and OTA. Everything else is superfluous. I don't need games or networkability or remote internet programming or anything as boring as interactive provides, that's for sure. Maybe those are selling points to some niche subs out there, or maybe I'm the niche sub. But I just want a box that works, that records HD. Other than the MPEG-4 channels, which so far are not tempting at all to me, the HR10 seems to be about the only thing that has all of those core features. Unfortunately, there's no heir apparent.


And my needs are 100 percent different, I do care about networking for Video on Demand, remote internet programming because I travel extensively and at a minutes notice. But I do not care what the GUI is, can adapt to any GUI with a learnng cure, features, programming etc are primary, looking forward to the new HD channels in MPEG4. IMHO the heir apparent is in the house.


----------



## bigpuma

TyroneShoes said:


> It's only my opinion, but to me the only core features are user-friendliness, reliability, expandability, low cost for hardware and DVR service, and integrated DVB and OTA.


I agree, my HR20 is user friendly, has been completely stable since March (it was not so stable before then), is easily expanded via eSata HDD, and was free for me.  The only thing I miss about my HR10 is DLBs but I have adjusted, although now with Football season I am missing it again.


----------



## sluciani

milominderbinder said:


> Last spring I could get straight through to DIRECTV as well. In my calls to DIRECTV over the past couple of weeks there was a dramatic change. As of last week I was on hold an average of 45 minutes. (Working out a new deal on a second HR20.)


+1. When I upgraded to HR20's in March, I was able to move my install date up to less than a week. My HDVR2 just died, so I ordered another HR20 upgrade and the soonest install date was over 3 weeks out. /steve


----------



## HiDefGator

milominderbinder said:


> RS4, that is a good question.
> 
> DISH had 30-40 HD channels in Q2. DIRECTV had 9 HD channels.
> 
> Consumers don't care what you promise for futures. Instant gratification is everything.
> 
> So the interesting part was the DIRECTV was able to show any gain at all in that situation.
> 
> I think that the activity we have seen on this site is a good indicator that a big change is underway. I have called DISH several time in the past few weeks as I researched things. I could always get through instantly.
> 
> Last spring I could get straight through to DIRECTV as well. In my calls to DIRECTV over the past couple of weeks there was a dramatic change. As of last week I was on hold an average of 45 minutes. (Working out a new deal on a second HR20.)
> 
> I asked the DISH and DIRECTV CSR's how they were and how busy they were. DISH CSR's all said that they are having no hold times. The DIRECTV CSR's all said they were getting slammed with orders.
> 
> But that is all subjective. We will know the facts in October when the 10-Q's come out.
> 
> - Craig


I believe DTV is trying to focus on only signing up those that are likely to actually pay their bill each month. Dish is still trying to sign up anyone who can sign their name. This is also be a factor.


----------



## generalpatton71

HiDefGator said:


> I believe DTV is trying to focus on only signing up those that are likely to actually pay their bill each month. Dish is still trying to sign up anyone who can sign their name. This is also be a factor.


WOW I guess you were a supporter of the "Separate but Equal" in the south as well. :down:

BTW D*= Directv and DTV= Digital TV, but hey at least you can sign your name.


----------



## joed32

I have heard that they are being a little more strict with credit ratings. I have a neighbor that was refused service for having no credit history.


----------



## MisterEd

True, and on top of that you now have to provide a FULL SSN (not just last 4 digits as it used to be). If you refuse the SN# or they reject your credit you can send them a check for $200 ($300 for advanced equipment) as a "deposit" which they will only return at $5/month as a credit to your account(besides the cost of the equipment).



joed32 said:


> I have heard that they are being a little more strict with credit ratings. I have a neighbor that was refused service for having no credit history.


----------



## bigpuma

generalpatton71 said:


> WOW I guess you were a supporter of the "Separate but Equal" in the south as well. :down:


Yeah, that's the same. 



> BTW D*= Directv and DTV= Digital TV, but hey at least you can sign your name.


I have seen way more people use DTV for DirecTV than Digital TV. You obviously knew what he meant.


----------



## Mark Lopez

AbMagFab said:


> According to the quarterly Tivo report, DirecTV/Tivo subscribers are declining at a rate of about 100-150K per quarter. The question is - are most of those people who switch to DirecTV DVR's, or are they people leaving DirecTV completely?.


Well, obviously just from posts here and the other board, a lot are switching. Certainly more (that have posted) than are bailing.



AbMagFab said:


> Since you'd have to give up all your DirecTivo's to be recorded as a Tivo subscriber loss, *I'm guessing* these are mostly people leaving DirecTV completely. *I'd wager* it's about 65% people leaving, 35% people switching.


I sure hope you don't gamble much. 



AbMagFab said:


> *IMO* Once people get Tivo, *some* of them want to keep it.


I fixed your post for you.


----------



## primetime73

AbMagFab said:


> According to the quarterly Tivo report, DirecTV/Tivo subscribers are declining at a rate of about 100-150K per quarter. The question is - are most of those people who switch to DirecTV DVR's, or are they people leaving DirecTV completely?
> 
> Since you'd have to give up all your DirecTivo's to be recorded as a Tivo subscriber loss, I'm guessing these are mostly people leaving DirecTV completely. I'd wager it's about 65% people leaving, 35% people switching.
> 
> Once people get Tivo, most of them want to keep it. If they're going to be forced to switch the hardware, then your force them to look at all their options again for getting service. Once they do that, DirecTV looks pretty bad when compared to most major-market competitors (in terms of real offerings today, not future hype).
> 
> So DirecTV could indeed be concerned about their increased churn among Tivo subscribers.
> 
> If someone has breakdown data on the DirecTivo churn at DirecTV, please post it.


D*'s net subs of 128,000 in the 2nd quarter were an increase over the 125,000 in the year ago quarter as well as lowering their churn rate from 1.59 to 1.58 so basically flat. D* has lowered their churn rate pretty steadily over the past couple years probably somewhat due to the 2 year commitments people are signing up for as they upgrade equipment to the HR20. But even with the early bugs in the HR20 the churn is slowing. In fact Q1 of this year (when HR20 had biggest bugs)saw a churn of 1.44, the lowest in D* history so apparently a lot of the HR20 people haven't been running for the doors as you insinuate. BTW D* grew total subscribers 5% over last year's level. to 16.32 million subs.

DirecTV's quarterly churn rate: 
Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4
2007 1.44% 1.58%
2006 1.45% 1.59% 1.80% 1.57%
2005 1.49% 1.69% 1.89% 1.70%

Tivo on the other hand continues to languish as evidenced from their own drop in net adds. This excerpt was taken from Tivo's earnings press release.

"TiVo-Owned subscription gross additions for the second quarter were 41,000, compared to 74,000 gross additions for the year-ago period. As has been the case in recent quarters, gross subscription additions were impacted by the pace at which retailers moved to a high definition sales focus. Overall, TiVo-Owned subscriptions totaled 1.71 million, up 136,000 on an annual basis compared to the year ago-period. As expected, TiVo reported a net decline in DIRECTV TiVo subscriptions during the period as DIRECTV is no longer deploying new TiVo boxes. Cumulative total subscriptions as of July 31, 2007 were 4.2 million. Additionally, the monthly churn rate was 1.2% compared to 1.1% in the prior quarter. This increase was in part due to subscribers seeking HD DVR alternatives."

If you really want to look at investor's opinion of how Tivo has done during the past year go to Yahoo Finance and type DTV in for a quote, pull up the chart and compare to TIVO, believe me you will want to have owned DTV over TIVO stock during the past year, about a 30% difference in performance.


----------



## Redux

primetime73 said:


> If you really want to look at investor's opinion of how Tivo has done during the past year go to Yahoo Finance and type DTV in for a quote, pull up the chart and compare to TIVO, believe me you will want to have owned DTV over TIVO stock during the past year, about a 30% difference in performance.


Why? What is the need to come into this Tivo Community forum and attack Tivo? I have been asking this for months and I wish someone from your group could explain this to me.

Tivo advocates have NOT, as far as I've noticed, gone over to the DirecTV-centric forums to attack DirecTV. Have I missed something? Is this retaliation of some kind?

I woud not even _think_ of questioning moderators' decisions in allowing an avalanche of anti-Tivo posts in recent months, but why is the new ownerhip allowing this?


----------



## Billy66

Redux,

The answer to why is because the topic was initiated here. Complain to AbmagFab if you want to complain to primetime73.

Try to relax about it man. Times are changing for both companies and this forum. It will be ok.


----------



## Redux

Billy66 said:


> Times are changing for both companies and this forum.


OK. Well I figured that's probably what was happening, that this will not be a Tivo forum anymore, going forward.

Will there be some kind of official announcement, do you think?


----------



## Billy66

I dunno Redux. My guess is the new owners will be concerned about what drives traffic and the dollars associated. If things ever heated up again where TiVo and DirecTv could work together again we'd all be here to talk about that too. For now a lot of DirecTv customers are deciding how/when to go forward with DirecTv and their burgeoning technology or how/when to go forward with another service provider and maintain their TiVo.

It's hard because as Dtivo users, we experienced the best TiVo experience (IMHO) when you combine all of the functionality and the cost of service. As DirecTv customers we're a fractured group now. As TiVo lovers we're also fractured from this. These fractures can heal and we can remain a community.

I think with the exception of a few on BOTH sides of the fence that cause trouble and a few on BOTH sides of the fence that let the argument grow too big, we've been doing ok lately given our challenges as a community that was once one.


----------



## fasTLane

Redux said:


> OK. Well I figured that's probably what was happening, that this will not be a Tivo forum anymore, going forward.
> Will there be some kind of official announcement, do you think?


Sarcasm noted Redux. 

Hopefully soon, the new HD will ramp up so they can stay busy feeling the joy.


----------



## kiddk1

Please I hope so, I cant stand the hr20 menu


----------



## Mark Lopez

Redux said:


> Why? What is the need to come into this Tivo Community forum and attack Tivo? I have been asking this for months and I wish someone from your group could explain this to me.


No one is attacking Tivo. People are simply stating facts, and the Tivo zealots get all bent out of shape because it's not what they want to hear (i.e. that many feel the HR20 is a fine DVR).



Redux said:


> Tivo advocates have NOT, as far as I've noticed, gone over to the DirecTV-centric forums to attack DirecTV. Have I missed something? Is this retaliation of some kind?


Maybe because those with an open mind don't really have any valid reasons to attack DirecTV (and it's DVR).



Redux said:


> .... but why is the new ownerhip allowing this?


Same reason as above - open minds.


----------



## primetime73

Redux said:


> Why? What is the need to come into this Tivo Community forum and attack Tivo? I have been asking this for months and I wish someone from your group could explain this to me.
> 
> Tivo advocates have NOT, as far as I've noticed, gone over to the DirecTV-centric forums to attack DirecTV. Have I missed something? Is this retaliation of some kind?
> 
> I woud not even _think_ of questioning moderators' decisions in allowing an avalanche of anti-Tivo posts in recent months, but why is the new ownerhip allowing this?


Look, in my opinion Tivo puts out a fine product and was one of the first to put out a quality DVR. I still run an HR10-250 in my bedroom as a 3rd DVR. I was responding to people like AbMag whatever and RS4 who conintually post half truths and have nothing but garbage to say about the HR20 which has turned out to be a fine DVR. These people rip a product they have never tried and refuse to move on and admit Tivo is dead to D*. I remember the posts of zealots claiming D* would meet its demise because of dropping Tivo when in fact quite the opposite is true.

I have been running two HR20's for almost 9 months and neither has missed a recording or locked up. I realize early on there were problems for others but they have been improved and as an early adopter of electronics bugs should be expected. The zealots, many of whom have never even tried the HR20, just continually bash and refuse to admit the product is working and is being adopted. Look around this board at all the posts by people complaining the HR10-250 missed a recording or has audio drop outs, etc. It is not like the Tivo product has been perfect but heaven forbid someone point out the issues with a product that has been on the market for 2 years+ longer than the HR20. In my case it has missed more recording and locked up multiple times in the past 8-9 months while the HR20s have been rock solid.

It just gets old reading the same BS about D* struggling or customers flocking away from D* because they want Tivo and that Tivo is the be all end all of DVR's when the numbers and my experience show that isnt' the case. Tivo puts out a fine DVR but at the end of the day the Hr20 is just as good even without the added content available.

Reason why for me they are pretty equal:
DLB's: I get around it fine by recording one show and flipping between them.
Wishlists: never used on Tivo; but the search function works pretty much the same on Hr20
Suggestions: waste of space, always turned off;
Menus/interface: just different is all; HR20 acutally eaier to set up season pass and check to do list; and being able to access menus while still watching TV is a nice upgrade
skip to tick: works fine on HR20
FF and auto correct: works fine on HR20
guide: works fine on HR20; the +/- 12 hour jump function is very nice upgrade; searching thru one channel is also fast and easy by hitting info on the channel name in guide and scrolling thru that channel just like the Tivo guide.

Most of these are in response the half truths that claim you can't skip to tick, miss the Tivo guide, or that it is somehow harder to set up a season pass.
Edit: looking around this board I found a few others, someone claimed you can't get to live TV as easy with the HR20: all you have to do is hit exit while watching a recording just one buttion just like the Tivo.

Another claimed there was no 30 second skip; actually the HR20 has a dedicated button for it unlike Tivo where I have to program the function in everytime it resets.

Reasons HR20 is better:
MPEG4: more HD, less hard drive space taken up by recordings
eSATA: easy to add a 750GB hard drive to my system and believe me it is very nice not worrying about space on the main DVR.
Space used meter; very nice to know how much room I have on hard drive
Networking: haven't done yet but don't really have need for yet.
VOD: haven't tried to enable yet but a feature not available on HR10. 
Play Folder: plays the entire folder of a show; not a big deal but still a nice upgrade, also allows to delete an entire folder, again not that bif of a deal but still a nice feature.
Speed: not even close, no more hanging for 30 seconds to a minute when changing season pass priority or searching.

If you want to stick with Tivo and the limited HD capability or if you want to switch to cable to get the Series 3 that is fine. Just quit claiming the HR20 doesn't work or that no one likes the HR20. I get it you and others don't like something new but as long as posters bash it others will defend it and quite frankly the Tivo zealots are in a minority that is shrinking everyday. I am not trying to start a flame war, like I said Tivo is fine but the HR20 works and this alternate reality that some live in where some sizable majority is leaving D* over Tivo or that everyone hates the HR20 is getting really old.


----------



## wolflord11

gdomeier said:


> One reason dtv may get back with tivo would be lost subscribers. I am leaving dtv because I want hd and tivo. If that happens enough, then they may re-establish their parternship.


The Costs to re-establish a partnership, come out with a New Unit and all that far outweigths the lost subscribers.

Hell 80% of the Subscribers that have left Directv probally do not even know what Tivo is. They go for a number of reasons: Maybe they move to an area that offers Cable cheaper. Maybe they are moving overseas. Maybe they have been deployed. Maybe they are tired of all the BS on TV. There are many reasons.

Remember the total number of Directv/Tivo subscribers is only small compared to Total Directv Subscribers. Also remember the numbers are not even right. You may have 1 Subscriber who has 2-3 even 4 units. So it is impossible to get a 100% accurate number.


----------



## RS4

primetime73 said:


> ...
> Most of these are in response the half truths that claim you can't skip to tick, miss the Tivo guide, or that it is somehow harder to set up a season pass.
> Edit: looking around this board I found a few others, someone claimed you can't get to live TV as easy with the HR20: all you have to do is hit exit while watching a recording just one buttion just like the Tivo.
> 
> Another claimed there was no 30 second skip; actually the HR20 has a dedicated button for it unlike Tivo where I have to program the function in everytime it resets.
> 
> Reasons HR20 is better:
> MPEG4: more HD, less hard drive space taken up by recordings
> eSATA: easy to add a 750GB hard drive to my system and believe me it is very nice not worrying about space on the main DVR.
> Space used meter; very nice to know how much room I have on hard drive
> Networking: haven't done yet but don't really have need for yet.
> VOD: haven't tried to enable yet but a feature not available on HR10.
> Play Folder: plays the entire folder of a show; not a big deal but still a nice upgrade, also allows to delete an entire folder, again not that bif of a deal but still a nice feature.
> Speed: not even close, no more hanging for 30 seconds to a minute when changing season pass priority or searching.
> 
> If you want to stick with Tivo and the limited HD capability or if you want to switch to cable to get the Series 3 that is fine. Just quit claiming the HR20 doesn't work or that no one likes the HR20. I get it you and others don't like something new but as long as posters bash it others will defend it and quite frankly the Tivo zealots are in a minority that is shrinking everyday. I am not trying to start a flame war, like I said Tivo is fine but the HR20 works and this alternate reality that some live in where some sizable majority is leaving D* over Tivo or that everyone hates the HR20 is getting really old.


You guys really get me. The first thing to remind you of is this is a Tivo forum - we're not on the HR20 forum. There is nothing on earth wrong with Tivo lovers pointing out that they prefer the Tivo over any of the other boxes in the market place today!!

You guys are the ones speaking in half truths. What we have pointed out continuously is that the HR20 does not enjoy the same reputation as the Tivo - yes it has it's group of supporters and people that do like it, but it doesn't enjoy the reputation of folks saying this is the Tivo replacement. In fact it's just the opposite, I read time and time again about - 'if DirecTV comes out with a new DTivo, I'm going back to it.' I've seen surveys showing people don't even come close to endorsing it - in big numbers. This is especially true of Tivo users, so when a Tivo user is asking about the HR20, it's perfectly okay to point out that they may not like the HR20 if they love their Tivo.

Tivo has had many of the features for years that you guys are now touting with the HR20. Yes, it has mpeg4 and vod and many of us certainly would want that, but most of the other stuff has been around for years.

The area where most of you guys miss the boat entirely is in usability. Tivo was created by people who thought about how their clients would use the product - because of that - it flows. It has a good look and feel about it that many of us feel is superior to anything else we've seen on the market.

The HR20 on the other hand gives me the impression that it was devleoped by a group of people in a hurry to get something to market - all they care about is getting their little function to work - not how people will use it. In my mind, DirecTV is no different than any of the other companies developing dvr's where that is not their main product - get the functions in and people will eventually figure out how to use it.

Would some of us Tivo users like to try the HR20 at home, yes!! But most of us are smart enough to not shell out $300 for a product that is full of doubts - why on earth would we want to reward a company for a mediocre product?

So, feel fine with your HR20, but don't come over to this Tivo forum and make fun of people or berate us when we comment on a product that we know is not to our liking.


----------



## Cudahy

I was a little nervous at first, but it looks now that all the HD channels in mpeg2 will be staying. We
can wait for news now, once Malone takes over(can't be too much longer).


----------



## Billy66

You crack me up Cudahy.

Just for additional giggles, let's say you're right and let's say that on Malone's very first day he declares "We must get TiVo back" then let's say that they reach an agreement the very next day. Let's say this all happens by the first of the year. Given all of that, when would you expect a new box to reach the consumers?

I think I'm going to piss my pants at your answer. Please don't deny my that joy.


----------



## Sir_winealot

Billy66 said:


> You crack me up Cudahy.
> 
> Just for additional giggles, let's say you're right and let's say that on Malone's very first day he declares "We must get TiVo back" then let's say that they reach an agreement the very next day. Let's say this all happens by the first of the year. Given all of that, when would you expect a new box to reach the consumers?


October 15th.


----------



## Billy66

You picked the least funny date out there good sir!


----------



## Sir_winealot

Ah ...whoops, I forgot nobody likes tax time.

Sorry.....


----------



## Billy66

I hope you have your quarterly ready!


----------



## SullyND

Billy66 said:


> Let's say this all happens by the first of the year. Given all of that, when would you expect a new box to reach the consumers?


Who says it would be hardware? Is the ComcasTiVo on new hardware?

If there is any move to a new TiVo Experience on DirecTV my guess is it would be similar to the Comcast model. i.e. You can get the HR-20 w/ the "basic" system for X/mo, or "upgrade" your HR-20 to TiVo for Y/mo.

I'd gladly pay double my DVR fee for TiVo. As it stands, I'm leaving DirecTV when my commitment is up if there is not a TiVo option.


----------



## Billy66

OK Sully, ETA on software only solution then. The Comcast solution you mention hasn't really been streaking to the marketplace.


----------



## bigpuma

SullyND said:


> Who says it would be hardware? Is the ComcasTiVo on new hardware?
> 
> If there is any move to a new TiVo Experience on DirecTV my guess is it would be similar to the Comcast model. i.e. You can get the HR-20 w/ the "basic" system for X/mo, or "upgrade" your HR-20 to TiVo for Y/mo.
> 
> I'd gladly pay double my DVR fee for TiVo. As it stands, I'm leaving DirecTV when my commitment is up if there is not a TiVo option.


Ok, but the Comcast TiVo was supposed to be available last year.


----------



## BlackBetty

Why in the world would DirecTV allow TiVo to upgrade their software on boxes they no longer sell? Doesn't DirecTV want these users to drop TiVo and get with the NDS generic DVR?

I see this as a very positive sign that TiVo and DirecTV might be lifting up the bed sheets and ready to climb back in. This time around, I don't see DirecTV kicking TiVo out of bed for eating crackers. Due to the whole E* thing.


----------



## milominderbinder

I think that this debate will become moot tomorrow morning at 6:00 AM EDT.

- Craig


----------



## 20TIL6

why will the debate be moot?


----------



## fasTLane

it won't


----------



## BlackBetty

milominderbinder said:


> I think that this debate will become moot tomorrow morning at 6:00 AM EDT.
> 
> - Craig


and what is happening tomorrow at 6:00 AM EDT?


----------



## SullyND

bigpuma said:


> Ok, but the Comcast TiVo was supposed to be available last year.


Who's to say that much of the heavy lifting of a DirecTiVo on HR-20 hasn't already been done by TiVo for the Comcast deal (They're now going to be porting it to more platforms than just the Moto's)


----------



## scottjf8

BlackBetty said:


> and what is happening tomorrow at 6:00 AM EDT?


New HD channels!


----------



## AbMagFab

BlackBetty said:


> Why in the world would DirecTV allow TiVo to upgrade their software on boxes they no longer sell? Doesn't DirecTV want these users to drop TiVo and get with the NDS generic DVR?


One possibility - DirecTV is concerned about the very high churn among Tivo subscribers, and they see this as a way to reduce churn.

All cable companies are mostly about churn (except new ones like FIOS, which are currently mostly about new subscribers).

For DirecTV, back when Tivo was a real partner, the Tivo subscribers represented their lowest churn customers *by far*. This is documented in a number of quarterly calls during that time.

Now, DirecTV-Tivo subs are leaving at an alarming ~120-150K per quarter. The plan of "just get an R15/HR20" failed, for Tivo subs at least. DirecTV has realized that one option is to throw them a bone by giving them a few new features on their obsoleted Tivo's. You'd think most people would see through this, but it will likely reduce the churn a little.

In any case, it's a pretty good reason for DirecTV to try.


----------



## ebonovic

Another possibility... is that DirecTV needed an upgrade for something else, that the current versions are not compatible with.

TiVo said... sure, but these x,y,z features could/need to be part of that because of the core software version that it would be based off....


Or... TiVo asked to do the update, to help entice people to keep their SD TiVo still active...

There are many possibilities on "why"... and no one knows other then those at DirecTV and TiVo, inc.... everything else is just conjecture...


As for the R15/HR20 "failed".... for TiVo subs at least... you have some numbers to definitively prove that? I know I haven't seen any studies or accurate analysis that can say either way.


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## AbMagFab

ebonovic said:


> Another possibility... is that DirecTV needed an upgrade for something else, that the current versions are not compatible with.
> 
> TiVo said... sure, but these x,y,z features could/need to be part of that because of the core software version that it would be based off....
> 
> Or... TiVo asked to do the update, to help entice people to keep their SD TiVo still active...
> 
> There are many possibilities on "why"... and no one knows other then those at DirecTV and TiVo, inc.... everything else is just conjecture...
> 
> As for the R15/HR20 "failed".... for TiVo subs at least... you have some numbers to definitively prove that? I know I haven't seen any studies or accurate analysis that can say either way.


But DirecTV has no reason to allow any of that, unless they are worried about losing Tivo subs. So thanks for supporting my point.

If DirecTV wasn't worried about losing Tivo subs, they would *love* a new feature that wasn't available on Tivo - another reason to force them to the new, oh so wonderful platforms. And they certainly wouldn't want Tivo adding new features that would slow the movement to the new, oh so successful R15/HR20 platform.

All I have are numbers from the quarterly calls. Tivo DirecTV Tivo subs loss every quarter is public. DirecTV's churn is public. The math is pretty easy to do.


----------



## Mark Lopez

RS4 said:


> You guys really get me. The first thing to remind you of is this is a Tivo forum - we're not on the HR20 forum. There is nothing on earth wrong with Tivo lovers pointing out that they prefer the Tivo over any of the other boxes in the market place today!!
> 
> You guys are the ones speaking in half truths.


Please point out one thing that Primtime said that was a half truth.

This may be a Tivo forum but this section will probably be gone in a few years at most, so what's the problem with discussing the fact that the HR10 is dead?

And the problem with the Tivo lovers (zealots) is that it is fine if they prefer the HR10, but most of them (including you) have not even used a HR20, so how can you prefer something when you have not actually compared it to anything?  And most of the ones who do complain about the HR20 do it 5 minutes after taking it out of the box because they already have their mind made up that they will hate it no matter what. Heck, one guy posted that he hated it as soon as he saw the remote.  As if anyone actually still uses OEM remotes (besides the Tivo zealots). <sigh>


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## rminsk

Mark Lopez said:


> And the problem with the Tivo lovers (zealots) is that it is fine if they prefer the HR10, but most of them (including you) have not even used a HR20, so how can you prefer something when you have not actually compared it to anything?


Many of us have a HR20 (4 in my case) and still prefer the TiVo because of it's stability and reliability. The HR20 still has not passed my test of recording everything I want for 1 month without any intervention on my part. The HR10-250 will be my primary receiver until the HR20 passes this test.


----------



## RS4

Mark Lopez said:


> Please point out one thing that Primtime said that was a half truth.
> 
> This may be a Tivo forum but this section will probably be gone in a few years at most, so what's the problem with discussing the fact that the HR10 is dead?
> 
> And the problem with the Tivo lovers (zealots) is that it is fine if they prefer the HR10, but most of them (including you) have not even used a HR20, so how can you prefer something when you have not actually compared it to anything?  And most of the ones who do complain about the HR20 do it 5 minutes after taking it out of the box because they already have their mind made up that they will hate it no matter what. Heck, one guy posted that he hated it as soon as he saw the remote.  As if anyone actually still uses OEM remotes (besides the Tivo zealots). <sigh>


There you go again - you just can't stop yourself from calling us names and making insinuations that just because we haven't physically touched the HR20, we can't make an intelligent decision 

Did you see the entry about the guy who had his for 30 days and then gave up? How about the six month? Forget it, you just can't admit that there are a slew of people out there that don't like it, let alone thinking it is better then the Tivo.


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## Sir_winealot

Mark Lopez said:


> And the problem with the Tivo lovers (zealots) is that it is fine if they prefer the HR10, but most of them (including you) have not even used a HR20, so how can you prefer something when you have not actually compared it to anything?  And most of the ones who do complain about the HR20 do it 5 minutes after taking it out of the box because they already have their mind made up that they will hate it no matter what. Heck, one guy posted that he hated it as soon as he saw the remote.  As if anyone actually still uses OEM remotes (besides the Tivo zealots). <sigh>


_Most of them_ have not even used an HR20? And "most of the ones who do complain about the HR20 do it 5 minutes after taking it out of the box?" Where did you pull these statistics outta (a rhetorical question ...I think I know)? 

Do you just _make up_ things that help to support your argument? Cuz that's truly a bunch of baloney....


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## ayrton911

I've used an HR20 for a few months now. I love when I'm in the bedroom and get to use a DirecTiVo. Everything is easier and takes so many less steps to accomplish.

The HR20 is not a terrible box, but I love the simplicity of TiVo. I miss it. If it comes back someday, I'd be ecstatic.


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## MichaelK

Cudahy said:


> I was a little nervous at first, but it looks now that all the HD channels in mpeg2 will be staying. ....


for how long?

That's the magic question.

With the majority of the population already having MPEG4 HD locals available and all the new channels available any hour now plus the normal box churn (I remember being astounded with how fast they got the new interactive boxes into service)- I'd suspect that the % of HD subs that are only MPEG2 is dropping steadily.

At what point does directv just say- "OK legacy people we've supported you long enough, the installers will be coming around to upgrade you folks"

There's an awful lot of bandwidth "wasted" at 101 and even 110 and 119 for HD when it can all be moved to Ka (in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they dont simulcast all the old stuff soon in a higher quality in MPEG4 Ka like they do now with the NY/LA locals.). Room for lots of new shopping and ppv channels. The space on 110 and 119 could be used to get the sd locals of the leased space at 72.5 that had a time limit...

Not saying that January 1 MPEG2 gets killed off but it's got to be starting at some point...


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## milominderbinder

Cudahy said:


> I was a little nervous at first, but it looks now that all the HD channels in mpeg2 will be staying.


Cudahy,

What is your source for this?

I can't find a statement like this anywhere. The only statement I can find says that the old channels will still be broadcast through this season.

- Craig


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## watchdogfl

Lord Vader said:


> That depends on how one defines the term "superior."
> 
> I've got two HR10-250s and several HDVR2s on my account. I also have two HR20-700s and one HR20-100 DirecTV HD DVRs. Is the HR10-250 HD TIVO "superior" to the DTV HD DVR? No. Is it better? In some respects, yes; in others, no.
> 
> I have been and always will be a big fan of TIVO, but the new HD DVRs offer many additional features--VOD, interactive capabilities, gaming, etc.--that DirecTiVO does not. The main feature the HD DVRs lack is dual live buffer, which just happens to be a major feature/issue.
> 
> If DirecTV came out with an HD DVR based on and utilizing the TIVO platform, I'd go with that in a heartbeat. Until then, TIVO is becoming more and more a thing of the past with DirecTV.


LordVader... the problem with your argument here is your comparing OLD Tivo tech to new DirecTV tech. If I lineup my Tivo HD with the HR20... it's no contest. Forget UI.. i'm just talking features and reliability. Tivo2Go, MRV, stability, downloadable content, etc.

So... of course the tech is better when comparing HR20 to HR10... but compare the HR20 to comparable hardware... not a handicapped box that is cut of at the knees because of a technology migration and heavyhanded software control policies at Dtv

In short... a lot of people will not care about Tivo vs DVR... they just want a DVR... but the majority of people that have TIVO want TIVO and the Tivo HD is the best HD DVR option out there IMHO.

D* has known this, and has known about it's own weaknesses and occasional failures , of its own hardware for quite sometime. That is one of the reasons for the 2 year commitments.

I bet a lot of those people with HR20's and SUnday ticket are wishing they weren't locked into a contract now.


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## cramer

Mark Lopez said:


> Heck, one guy posted that he hated it as soon as he saw the remote.


I'm the one who said that. And I didn't say I hated the HR20 as soon as I saw it's candybar remote. (It was immediately misunderstood.) Simply put, that's as far into the box as one need go to understand the mindset of the people who designed the HR20. It instantly shows how little they understand what DVR users want, how they actually use the thing... how they _have been using_ the Tivo Powered(tm) DVR. Saying no one uses the provided remote is a laughably stupid remark. The truth is most people use the remote provided with whatever they've bought -- TV, DVD, etc.

I've used HR20's. I don't like them. Today, they are far more stable than when they first came out. However, they're still just as primitive. (Where's the dual live buffers? Being able to record two things at once is not a dual live buffer.) Using one gives me the impression it was programmed by people who have never even seen a tv (much less the DVRs they're supposed to replace.) Functional? Sure. But so are VCR's. Intuative? Simply, No. If I sat an HR20 infront of my parents, I'd never heard the end of it; they'd never figure the thing out -- even with the manual. I put a HDVR2 infront of them several years ago, handed them the remote and walked away. They never had any trouble figuring it out -- without ever reading the manual. "User friendly"? I wouldn't go that far, but I'll conceed a "maybe" if you've never used anything else. Would you "get used to it"? Concidering it generally comes with a 2 year shackle (and some outlay of cash), you'd better hope so. I'm sure the numbers will show people _have_ gotten used to the non-Tivo R15 and HR20 once the commitments are up.

Tivo is the reason I'm a DTV customer -- pretty much from the day dtivo's were available. Take away tivo and you've taken away my reason for being a customer. If I have to give up the Tivo Experience, it's sure as h*** not going to be for an HR20. (not today's HR20.)

BTW, a lot of the issues people have(had) been reporting w.r.t. lockups and reboots can be directly attributed to changes DTV made (rolled back, and likely reintroduced) to the data stream for the HR20. Some might say they did it on purpose to make the tivos look highly unstable, but I think it was just an oversight.


----------



## Billy66

Your parents must not be as smart as my 4 year old then cramer. He picked up the HR20 right away and get this, he can actually run it with either the stock remote or the universal.

You came for TiVo, fair enough. I came for programming and my DVR needs to fit my programming, not the other way around. I'd like DLB, I certainly would, but we've had the choice of using TiVo in our home or an HR20 for the last year and every person has chosen the HR20 and the TiVo just sits there for conflicts. Now with an enormous disparity in available programming, that gap will likely widen.


----------



## 20TIL6

Billy66 said:


> Your parents must not be as smart as my 4 year old then cramer. He picked up the HR20 right away and get this, he can actually run it with either the stock remote or the universal.
> 
> You came for TiVo, fair enough. I came for programming and my DVR needs to fit my programming, not the other way around.  I'd like DLB, I certainly would, but we've had the choice of using TiVo in our home or an HR20 for the last year and every person has chosen the HR20 and the TiVo just sits there for conflicts. Now with an enormous disparity in available programming, that gap will likely widen.


Then you and your 4 year-old definitely belong over at dbstalk.com because I cannot imagine any value you could offer a TiVo user community.


----------



## fasTLane

Well said


----------



## DLR

TyroneShoes said:


> It's only my opinion, but to me the only core features are user-friendliness, reliability, expandability, low cost for hardware and DVR service, and integrated DVB and OTA. Everything else is superfluous. I don't need games or networkability or remote internet programming or anything as boring as interactive provides, that's for sure. Maybe those are selling points to some niche subs out there, or maybe I'm the niche sub. But I just want a box that works, that records HD. Other than the MPEG-4 channels, which so far are not tempting at all to me, the HR10 seems to be about the only thing that has all of those core features. Unfortunately, there's no heir apparent.


We are in the same boat. The things you mention, plus dual buffers, are the reasons I will be sticking with the HR10's for the time being. I really hope that DTV and TiVo work something out on a new product, but until they shut down my current boxes or offer something with the features that are important to me, I'm sticking with what I have right now.


----------



## Billy66

20TIL6 said:


> Then you and your 4 year-old definitely belong over at dbstalk.com because I cannot imagine any value you could offer a TiVo user community.


Plenty man. I've used most versions of TiVo since software version 1.2.1. I doubt you were around for that. I had the DSR6000 the day it was released and helped TiVo and Directv improve that product. I'm using an Hr20 now and my feelings are positive but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't try something else if it were available. I've tried them all.

I'm sure that I know more about your TiVo's than you do. I don't need brand allegiance to hold value here.

Many TiVo users are making hard decisions now and they are asking for guidance. I understand and respect that you've already made your decision. Why not let the others go through that process for themselves?

Sorry to crap in your sandbox, but afterall it was mine first.


----------



## 94SupraTT

watchdogfl said:


> I bet a lot of those people with HR20's and SUnday ticket are wishing they weren't locked into a contract now.


I have Sunday Ticket and a HR10. Hopefully I'm not force to a HR20 next year to receive the games in HD.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

94 - sorry - the HD games will all be MPEG-4 next year.


----------



## alwayscool

MPEG-4 people read up on it


----------



## 20TIL6

Billy66 said:


> Plenty man. I've used most versions of TiVo since software version 1.2.1. I doubt you were around for that. I had the DSR6000 the day it was released and helped TiVo and Directv improve that product. I'm using an Hr20 now and my feelings are positive but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't try something else if it were available. I've tried them all.
> 
> I'm sure that I know more about your TiVo's than you do. I don't need brand allegiance to hold value here.
> 
> Many TiVo users are making hard decisions now and they are asking for guidance. I understand and respect that you've already made your decision. Why not let the others go through that process for themselves?
> 
> Sorry to crap in your sandbox, but afterall it was mine first.


My first TiVo was a Sony SAT-T60, before they turned on the second tuner. Did the whole Linux boot disk, BlessTivo to add another drive, etc. I'm not exactly a newbie. I was even a part of this community back then (I guess around 2000-2001), but I could not remember my account info and just created a new one instead. But who the heck cares about that?

I'm just saying that the toys you now desire are in a different sandbox. In fact, there's a number of you that like your new toys, yet somehow you keep showing up over here and blathering on and on about a product that DOES have its own community over at dbstalk. For the most part, when a newbie posts here about the HR15 or HR20, they are quickly pointed to dbstalk. And that's that.

But geez, some of you have some real separation anxiety going on, or maybe (you mentioned users asking for guidance) you realize that TiVo users come here first, and you, and perhaps DTV want to make sure you have representation stationed here at all times. I can't believe that the group of you are just plainly argumentative without any other motivation. But maybe you are just argumentative.

Anyway, it's a public sandbox here, as is dbstalk. You can call me a TiVo zealot, a fanboy, a guy who drank the Kool-aid, someone with considerable brand allegiance.... A TiVo Lemming.  Whatever, a lot of that is true. But you can't call me a troll. I would have no value posting on dbstalk, so I don't.


----------



## milominderbinder

20TIL6 said:


> My first TiVo was a Sony SAT-T60, before they turned on the second tuner. Did the whole Linux boot disk, BlessTivo to add another drive, etc. I'm not exactly a newbie. I was even a part of this community back then (I guess around 2000-2001), but I could not remember my account info and just created a new one instead. But who the heck cares about that?.


This is exactly my case! I must have used a hotmail account I don't have any more and I can't remember it. It was exactly the same time frame. I regestered just after getting it in the spring of 2001. This was the only source I could find to help me...

The SAT-T60 keeps on chugging!

- Craig


----------



## Sir_winealot

20TIL6 said:


> You can call me a TiVo zealot, a fanboy, a guy who drank the Kool-aid, someone with considerable brand allegiance.... Whatever, a lot of that is true. But you can't call me a troll. I would have no value posting on dbstalk, so I don't.


Lemming... you forgot the ever popular "TiVo Lemming."


----------



## Billy66

20TIL6 said:


> My first TiVo was a Sony SAT-T60, before they turned on the second tuner. Did the whole Linux boot disk, BlessTivo to add another drive, etc. I'm not exactly a newbie. I was even a part of this community back then (I guess around 2000-2001), but I could not remember my account info and just created a new one instead. But who the heck cares about that?
> 
> I'm just saying that the toys you now desire are in a different sandbox. In fact, there's a number of you that like your new toys, yet somehow you keep showing up over here and blathering on and on about a product that DOES have its own community over at dbstalk. For the most part, when a newbie posts here about the HR15 or HR20, they are quickly pointed to dbstalk. And that's that.
> 
> But geez, some of you have some real separation anxiety going on, or maybe (you mentioned users asking for guidance) you realize that TiVo users come here first, and you, and perhaps DTV want to make sure you have representation stationed here at all times. I can't believe that the group of you are just plainly argumentative without any other motivation. But maybe you are just argumentative.
> 
> Anyway, it's a public sandbox here, as is dbstalk. You can call me a TiVo zealot, a fanboy, a guy who drank the Kool-aid, someone with considerable brand allegiance.... Whatever, a lot of that is true. But you can't call me a troll. I would have no value posting on dbstalk, so I don't.


Don't lump me into a group. I haven't done that to you.

The HR20 is relevant to a TiVo user and TiVo is still relevant to me. You don't really think that there's no overlap do you?

If you feel you have no value on dbstalk then you are doing the right thing. If you think *I* have no value here, too bad, you're wrong.

The discussions are happening here, you can take them or leave them but attacking me for speaking in a public, moderated forum surely isn't your place.

There's enough room for everyone.


----------



## 20TIL6

milominderbinder said:


> This is exactly my case! I must have used a hotmail account I don't have any more and I can't remember it. It was exactly the same time frame. I regestered just after getting it in the spring of 2001. This was the only source I could find to help me...
> 
> The SAT-T60 keeps on chugging!
> 
> - Craig


Amazing little box it is. Right after I got my S3's, but before I cancelled service with DTV, I cleared my SAT-T60 out. Then I setup season passes for all the shows on Nick, Nick Toons, Disney, etc. I let that run for a couple of weeks straight. Until it was just loaded with that stuff. Then I cancelled DTV service.

Now I have it hooked up to a little TV over at my Mom's, so when my son visits his Grandmom he's got a huge library of that stuff on demand.

That T60 will not die.


----------



## RS4

Billy66 said:


> Don't lump me into a group. I haven't done that to you.
> 
> The HR20 is relevant to a TiVo user and TiVo is still relevant to me. You don't really think that there's no overlap do you?
> 
> If you feel you have no value on dbstalk then you are doing the right thing. If you think *I* have no value here, too bad, you're wrong.
> 
> The discussions are happening here, you can take them or leave them but attacking me for speaking in a public, moderated forum surely isn't your place.
> 
> There's enough room for everyone.


Your insinuations about your daughter were not called for.  I've got no problems with you guys discussing the HR20, but I don't like the half-truths that goes on here with your groups' preaching about the HR20. Look at milo for instance. You'd swear the guy must be getting some kind of commission for each HR20.

Most of you guys fail to point out that the user interface is entirely different and that large numbers of Tivo users don't like it. The other thing most of you fail to mention is that the user is signing up for another 2-year hitch with DirecTV. h yeah, the other big thing when talking about locals I never see is that DirecTV does not show all locals on the satellite in mpeg4. It's very mis-leading and that upsets :down: me.


----------



## Billy66

RS4,

Don't put me in a group and I won't put you into one.

BTW, it was my son and what I wrote is true, not insinuations, reality. cramer didn't actually try to see if his parents would find it intuitive, he based that on what he knows about them, it wasn't me cracking at his parents, it's his representation. What I wrote is true. Cooper picked it up right away and has no trouble with either remote. His problem comes when it's time to read, but he recognizes his shows, plays them, goes back to the list and picks another etc.

Again, you have some agenda against a group "you guys" I claim no part of that group, just like I don't claim part of your "us" group either. That's your division and you are making it. Apply it where you need to, but it doesn't fit me.


----------



## 20TIL6

Billy66 said:


> RS4,
> 
> Don't put me in a group and I won't put you into one.
> 
> BTW, it was my son and what I wrote is true, not insinuations, reality. cramer didn't actually try to see if his parents would find it intuitive, he based that on what he knows about them, it wasn't me cracking at his parents, it's his representation. What I wrote is true. Cooper picked it up right away and has no trouble with either remote. His problem comes when it's time to read, but he recognizes his shows, plays them, goes back to the list and picks another etc.
> 
> Again, you have some agenda against a group "you guys" I claim no part of that group, just like I don't claim part of your "us" group either. That's your division and you are making it. Apply it where you need to, but it doesn't fit me.


Well, one thing is for sure. Kids are amazing. They don't over-think the interface. Cooper, what a great name. My Wyatt, 6, has been mouse clicking (Windows and Mac), and TiVo'ing for a few years now. In fact, just this morning he commented on how the Series 1 does not have folders. He talks tech all the time, and I fear I have ruined him.


----------



## 94SupraTT

wilbur_the_goose said:


> 94 - sorry - the HD games will all be MPEG-4 next year.


Thats fine. When they are I might switch to a HR20. Then again I might not. My Bears had 5 game scheduled for national broadcast but it looks like it might end up being 7. I don't plan on getting a HR20 just to see maybe 7-9 Bears games in HD. Also, I don't like having to pay the $10 fee even if I don't subscribe to HD. I like having my HR10 and not having to pay a $10 just to have it.


----------



## RS4

Billy66 said:


> RS4,
> 
> Don't put me in a group and I won't put you into one.
> 
> BTW, it was my son and what I wrote is true, not insinuations, reality. cramer didn't actually try to see if his parents would find it intuitive, he based that on what he knows about them, it wasn't me cracking at his parents, it's his representation. What I wrote is true. Cooper picked it up right away and has no trouble with either remote. His problem comes when it's time to read, but he recognizes his shows, plays them, goes back to the list and picks another etc.
> 
> Again, you have some agenda against a group "you guys" I claim no part of that group, just like I don't claim part of your "us" group either. That's your division and you are making it. Apply it where you need to, but it doesn't fit me.


I'm glad your son can use the HR20. Whether you admit it or not, the insinuations were there. And again, you may not claim to be part of 'them', you still come across that way.

This is a Tivo forum. Many of us love the Tivo and feel strongly enough about it that we haven't found another product yet that we think will replace the Tivo. It's perfectly fine to discuss the HR20 if you are honest about it, but we don't need all of the 'put downs' that seem to come with the discussions.

To many of us the Tivo is more important then the supplier of the video. Yes, we are biased, but we are in a Tivo group and that is what you should expect. At the same time, we're more than happy to direct folks over to the dbstalk forum when there are questions about the non-Tivo-branded products. We certainly seem to be more willing to point out the discrepancies than many of the HR20 lovers, which again is something I guess is to be expected.


----------



## Billy66

20TIL6 said:


> Well, one thing is for sure. Kids are amazing. They don't over-think the interface. Cooper, what a great name. My Wyatt, 6, has been mouse clicking (Windows and Mac), and TiVo'ing for a few years now. In fact, just this morning he commented on how the Series 1 does not have folders. He talks tech all the time, and I fear I have ruined him.


Yep, come to think of it, he is clearly better operating the Home Theater than anyone other than myself. He exceeded the abilities of his grandparents a while back and eclipsed his mother recently.  I'm still king of the nerds though. 

Cooper is a good name. It suits him. It was his mother's birth name so we carried it to his first.


----------



## Billy66

RS4 said:


> I'm glad your son can use the HR20. Whether you admit it or not, the insinuations were there. And again, you may not claim to be part of 'them', you still come across that way.
> 
> This is a Tivo forum. Many of us love the Tivo and feel strongly enough about it that we haven't found another product yet that we think will replace the Tivo. It's perfectly fine to discuss the HR20 if you are honest about it, but we don't need all of the 'put downs' that seem to come with the discussions.
> 
> To many of us the Tivo is more important then the supplier of the video. Yes, we are biased, but we are in a Tivo group and that is what you should expect. At the same time, we're more than happy to direct folks over to the dbstalk forum when there are questions about the non-Tivo-branded products. We certainly seem to be more willing to point out the discrepancies than many of the HR20 lovers, which again is something I guess is to be expected.


The insinuations are yours then RS4. It's cramer that came to his own conclusion about his parents. What I presented about Cooper is true. If there's an insinuation there, it's that cramer is underestimating his parents.

Either way, I've said this to you personally a bunch. You aren't more "us" with the tivo interface than I am and I'm not part of any of "them". This is YOUR division. I'm just learning and sharing about DVR experiences in a way that the moderators and proprietors have tacitly blessed. I'm sorry their vision of their forum doesn't match what you feel it should be.


----------



## sluciani

RS4 said:


> Most of you guys fail to point out that the user interface is entirely different and that large numbers of Tivo users don't like it.


Please speak for yourself, and not TiVo users in general. I loved and used TiVos non-stop from 1999 to March of this year, but if I had a choice today between an MPEG-4 HR10 and the HR20, I'd stick with the HR20 in a heartbeat.

E.g., I set up about 20 Seasons Passes for the fall season this morning in the time it took me to page through one week's worth of GUIDE data. Less than 5 minutes from start to finish, including conflict resolution. /steve


----------



## cramer

Billy66 said:


> If there's an insinuation there, it's that cramer is underestimating his parents.


Unless you know my parents (which I highly doubt), you have no reason to even open your mouth. Since you don't know them _at all_, anything you say is just a random guess. As I said, they hit the ground running with the HDVR2. The 10 year old Sony SAT-B2 in the guest room -- which I still say has the best UI of any standard DTV receiver -- isn't as obvious to them. (and the fact that it's too old to map the locals to their natural channel only adds to it.) They don't even use the receiver's channel guide; they use the TV guide from the newspaper the same as they have for many decades. I'm not saying they are representative of all of DTV's 16mil customers, but they're a better match than _we_ are -- we use computers; we know about the Tivo Community Forums (and DBSTalk); we're technology savy people -- our VCRs have never flashed 12:00.

Tivo, Inc. has done many usability studies -- with actual real people. That's why the tivo (patented) peanut remote (not that I'm fixated on remotes ) is the shape that it is, why the buttons are where they are, why those are the buttons that are there, why there are actual words on it[1], etc. Overshoot correction was born out of usage feedback showing people rewinding after fast forwarding. The setting has been adjusted several times to get it "just right" -- where the majority of people are popped back pretty much to exactly where they want to be. Tivo has the benefit of a decade of experience. They also _have to_ make customer friendly products, or no one will buy them. DTV/NDS have relatively zero experience and can wave their monopoly wand over marginal products -- you'll like it because that's all there is.

Has DTV done any usability studies for the HR20? Are they collecting any kind of usage data? (Tivo may have a patent or two in this area, which means "h*** no.") Are they even listening to their customers? (missing features, how much it "sucks", etc.)

[1] Actual conversation I had last Christmas when I took a Series 3 home with me... "How do I enter a dash?" "Look at the remote. *pause* What's printed just above the skip button?" Btw, that's also on the original DSR6000 remote... from 7 years ago... long before tivo was doing ATSC.


----------



## Billy66

cramer said:


> Unless you know my parents (which I highly doubt), you have no reason to even open your mouth. Since you don't know them _at all_, anything you say is just a random guess.


You brought them up and I said nothing about them but others took your insinuations and made them mine. The words came from your mouth.

You're right, your parents aren't representative. Not any more so than my 4 year old yet you used them, your own parents, to illustrate that the HR20 isn't intuitive. Not because you watched them fail, but because you believed they would without giving them a shot. Apparently you know the universe of their abilities.

Don't bring your parents up, stating what they can't do without even giving them a chance, and wonder why someone might feel that you are underestimating them.

BTW, this is what *you* said about *your* parents.



> If I sat an HR20 infront of my parents, I'd never heard the end of it; they'd never figure the thing out -- even with the manual


Others have set it in front of children without a manual and have had no trouble. I'll assert that you are underestimating them and I don't need to know them. I only need to know the skills of an average person.

Sorry about the remote cramer.

Honestly, I bet you think your parents could figure it out, but you wanted to make a point and now you don't like how *you* made your parents look. Don't worry because I know it's not reflective of them, they had no opportunity.

I'm not telling you to like something you don't and I'm not telling you to give your parents something they don't want. I haven't said any of those things. All I said was that my child exhibited that it was intuitive enough. I don't expect his skills are highly above average anymore than I think your parents' skills would be below.

To summarize cramer doesn't like the remote, thinks it's not intuitive, threw his parents under the bus to try and demonstrate that. I also don't love the remote, but find the unit to be quite intuitive as demonstrated by my child and thus conclude that cramer underestimates his parents.


----------



## Sir_winealot

No way my parents could utilize the HR20. My mom ...after having a TiVo for 4 years ..._just started_ using the on screen guide in lieu of the TV Guide (even though I showed it to her time and again).

She still doesn't understand the concept of 'switching tuners, ' lol.


----------



## Lord Vader

My mom can't even get the "12:00" on their VCR to stop flashing!


----------



## lew

This is a tivo forum. For a variety of reasons some posters prefer tivo over other DVRS. Reliability, dual buffers, ease in upgrading internal hard drive, interface preference etc. This has nothing to do with parents or kids.

I'd be surprised if DTV goes back to tivo but there isn't anything wrong with posters speculating.

DTV used to be much better then cable. They offered dual tuner tivo DVRs and a lot of channels. Excluding the NFL FiOS and digital cable offer similar channels. Cable and FiOS now offer dual tuner DVRs that don't require paying a $299 lease fee. Cable and FiOS customers have the option of purchasing a tivo.

Some of us get tired of playing CSR roulette with DTV trying to get the same deal others are getting. The only valid comparison is DTVs posted price, or whatever deal is available at BB or COSTCO.


----------



## Lord Vader

I've got several DTIVOs--a couple HR10-250s, HDVR2s--and a couple DirecTV HD DVRs as well--the HR20-700s. I like them both, depending on which features I like to use at any given moment. I'm not going to throw either of the two products under the bus, even if I've used the DTIVOs for a lot longer than the DirecTV DVRs.


----------



## Scott D

I hate the fact that the Season Pass feature (or whatever they call it) on the HR20 receivers is limited to 50. Currently, I have 52 on one receiver and building up on the other at 24.

To me, that's just plain dumb.


----------



## Lord Vader

Good God! 52 Season Passes on one, and 24 on the other? Man, you're watching waayyyyyyyyy too much TV. Your sex life must be in the toilet!


----------



## RS4

Lord Vader said:


> Good God! 52 Season Passes on one, and 24 on the other? Man, you're watching waayyyyyyyyy too much TV. Your sex life must be in the toilet!


It says to me that they are using the dvr as a dvr - recording shows so they can watch them when they want to watch them. 

I've got 65 on one of my 3 DTivos. I like having a choice when I sit down to watch tv. It's just another sign that DirecTV didn't really think out this box when they were programming it.


----------



## Lord Vader

RS4 said:


> ...DirecTV didn't really think out this box when they were programming it.


On that statement I would tend to agree.


----------



## Citivas

Billy66 said:


> Plenty man. I've used most versions of TiVo since software version 1.2.1. I doubt you were around for that. I had the DSR6000 the day it was released and helped TiVo and Directv improve that product. I'm using an Hr20 now and my feelings are positive but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't try something else if it were available. I've tried them all.
> 
> I'm sure that I know more about your TiVo's than you do. I don't need brand allegiance to hold value here.
> 
> Many TiVo users are making hard decisions now and they are asking for guidance. I understand and respect that you've already made your decision. Why not let the others go through that process for themselves?
> 
> Sorry to crap in your sandbox, but afterall it was mine first.


If youre going to base credibility on tenure, Ive been in the sandbox even longer. I have been with DirecTV since late 95, had a TiVo since their first box (as well as a Replay and Ultimate TV and sampling the Media Server, etc.) and also got the first DirecTiVo the week it first released. And Ive been on this forum about three years longer. I also have had both the 10-250 and the HR-20 in my household for almost a year now (10 months) Personally I dont think any of this matters, but it seemed to be your basis for establishing legitimacy

My experience has been the opposite of yours. First, I was unlucky enough to get the HR-20 months before their bizillionth software update finally made it stable, so for months it was successfully recording about 60% of my shows (it recorded most, but a ton of them had no show in the recording) and crashing daily, requiring a 15-20 minutes to restart. So Ill admit the first impression sucked.

That said, it has been stable for at least 7 months and I have used it extensively, mirroring (with a few conflict exceptions) the TiVo. They are not in the same room, but each room gets used extensively. The TiVo is assigned to the better TV though (they are both HDTV capable sets). So I have extensively used the HR-20, programmed it, used the guides, etc. And my family has to a reasonable extent.

With the new HD channels allegedly coming any day now sometime this decade, I have proposed the idea of swapping locations between the boxes (I get all the locals in HD already on the TiVo so it hasnt been a big deal before). But I faced out-and-out rebellion from my wife and son, who HATE the HR-20. Not just dislike, but hate (well, my wife hates it, my son dislikes it). She absolutely hates the UI, the sluggishness of the remote controls responsiveness, the poor layout of the remote and the lack of some of the special effects missing from TiVo (particularly its feature of skipping back a few seconds after coming out of fast forward). She knows how to use it just fine, so its not about liking what you know over what you dont.

I agree with her on every point, plus Ill add having just setup about 20 season passes for the fall and re-prioritizing and changing the recording options (save time and recording repeats or not) a bunch more, that it was dramatically quicker on the TiVo. Literally twice as fast on the TiVo. There is a lot of talk about how much faster the HR-20 menus respond and this is true  re-prioritizing is almost instant versus a long wait on the TiVo. But if done right, you only have to wait once. Also, Ill agree the HR-20 is easier to record a live show. But beyond this, the TiVo is much more straight forward, less steps, etc. The HR-20 is ridiculous, in fact. First, because unlike with my TiVo, it labels the networks with the same channel # for the SD and HD versions. So I have to pay careful attention and waste time to make sure I record the right one. It also has redundant steps. When I first get the list of shows, like TiVo, it lists a separate line for each channel that has the show. But after carefully selecting the correct channel, it goes to another screen that shows just that show with all the channels again and you again have to carefully pick the right one. What a waste. Then be careful not to hit delete (double dash). I did this to try and kill out of date season passes. But there was such a delay between hitting the keys and it responding that I did it again and suddenly found 2 shows gone, because it doesnt confirm it just does it. SO I had to figure out which show I wanted was suddenly missing and re-establish it. Then the same thing happened again because sometimes the remote ignores or double counts keys, so I hit the dash twice but it interpreted 4 times. Sometimes it take 3-4 tries to directly select a station in the guide for the same reason  if I want 265, I might get 26, 25, 2655, etc before it correctly interprets 265 Hoestly, the remote just sucks.

I have no inherent product loyalty. I dont defend TiVo just for the heck of it. There are a lot of limitations in the product and there are some cool things in the HR-20 product. But based simply on our user experience, I would easily give up the new HD channels for now to keep our Tivo (until it inevitably fries some day) versus being forced to only use HR-20s. They just need to do better. Or, more likely, I will jump back to cable after all these years to stick with cable. As it is, I think the HD channel hype is overplayed. A majority of those other channels (I dont care about the sports) will be broadcasting non-HD content a majority of the time anyway Will it be nice to get Battlestar Galatica in early 2008 in HD. Sure. Is it worth being stuck with the HR-20? Not for us.


----------



## Billy66

Citivas said:


> If youre going to base credibility on tenure, Ive been in the sandbox even longer. I have been with DirecTV since late 95, had a TiVo since their first box (as well as a Replay and Ultimate TV and sampling the Media Server, etc.) and also got the first DirecTiVo the week it first released. And Ive been on this forum about three years longer. I also have had both the 10-250 and the HR-20 in my household for almost a year now (10 months) Personally I dont think any of this matters, but it seemed to be your basis for establishing legitimacy


Not credibility Citivas, but purpose and if my experience has value on a "TiVo" forum. That's what was questioned.

I respect your opinions about your experiences with all of your units, They are yours and valid.

I will say I remember you. I remember you joining the forum. I was already here as user Xaa, but you're right, none of that matters much. I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say or do you agree with the guy that claims I have no value here because I currently use an HR20 as my primary receiver? How do you respond when a newbie offers that assertion?

Just to one up you  DTV mid 95, 14 hour with 1.2.1 in Nov 99, ReplayTv, first week on DSR6000 and 12 months on the HR20.  Wish I would have gotten an UTV. Lurked in the sandbox at the end of 99 and joined for the first time Jan 2000


----------



## fasTLane

My tenure is longer than your tenure...


----------



## HiDefGator

The CEO of Tivo just did a presentation to investors. He said DirecTV has not called, sent flowers, or even a text msg. He even went so far as to say he was surprised when DTV said in their press release that they were looking forward to future possibilities with Tivo since they certrainly were not actively discussing any. 

Still doesn't mean they won't in the future, but for now it pretty much puts this thread to rest.


----------



## 20TIL6

Billy66 said:


> How do you respond when a newbie offers that assertion?


Are you calling me a newbie? I was here around 2000-2001 when I got my first SAT-T60. Then I stopped visiting for a long time, then came back several months ago when I decided to leave DTV because I wanted HD and TiVo together. I could not remember my credentials from back then, so I created a new ID.

Whatever... Fine, call me a newbie. Time will pass.

You said in one of your posts that you and your family entirely prefer the HR20 over the TiVo. That's when I questioned what value you could offer a TiVo community. Other than, "I have an HR20 and I like it better than TiVo" Which I don't count toward valuable TiVo information. Valuable dbstalk information, yes.


----------



## 20TIL6

HiDefGator said:


> The CEO of Tivo just did a presentation to investors. He said DirecTV has not called, sent flowers, or even a text msg. He even went so far as to say he was surprised when DTV said in their press release that they were looking forward to future possibilities with Tivo since they certrainly were not actively discussing any.
> 
> Still doesn't mean they won't in the future, but for now it pretty much puts this thread to rest.


Yeah, good luck with that! This thread has taken a life of its own, as many do.

Given that DirecTV made that "future opportunity" statement, it kinda' sounds like the TiVo CEO gave them a bit of a snub today. Or maybe he can't say anything with the Liberty sale pending, or whatever. I'm sure with the Comcast rollout coming at some point, he shouldn't say much that is positive with regard to DirecTV.


----------



## Billy66

20TIL6 said:


> Are you calling me a newbie? I was here around 2000-2001 when I got my first SAT-T60. Then I stopped visiting for a long time, then came back several months ago when I decided to leave DTV because I wanted HD and TiVo together. I could not remember my credentials from back then, so I created a new ID.
> 
> Whatever... Fine, call me a newbie. Time will pass.
> 
> You said in one of your posts that you and your family entirely prefer the HR20 over the TiVo. That's when I questioned what value you could offer a TiVo community. Other than, "I have an HR20 and I like it better than TiVo" Which I don't count toward valuable TiVo information. Valuable dbstalk information, yes.


Sorry man, you and I cleared things up several posts ago. When I posted what Citivas objected to, that was my false assumption. Didn't mean to reiterate that discussion with you, but it was my frame of reference at post time.

You don't have to prefer something to have many valid opinions about it. Preference is also a dynamic quality, not a static one. Again, I think you and I made our peace a page ago. Hope so anyway.


----------



## HiDefGator

20TIL6 said:


> I'm sure with the Comcast rollout coming at some point, he shouldn't say much that is positive with regard to DirecTV.


[sarcasm on] Yeah we wouldn't won't the tivo stock price to go up. [sarcasm off]
I mean he was talking to investment bankers after all. I suspect he dearly wanted to be able to say there was anything there.


----------



## Lord Vader

Citivas said:


> If The HR-20 is ridiculous, in fact. First, because unlike with my TiVo, it labels the networks with the same channel # for the SD and HD versions. So I have to pay careful attention and waste time to make sure I record the right one.


Actually, you can hide the SD duplicates so that they don't appear at all in the guide. There are two ways to do this. One method is for those who have downloaded some beta versions of the software with the "Hide SD duplicates" feature included. The other way is simply to customize your channel list to delete these SD duplicates.


----------



## rminsk

Lord Vader said:


> Actually, you can hide the SD duplicates so that they don't appear at all in the guide. There are two ways to do this. One method is for those who have downloaded some beta versions of the software with the "Hide SD duplicates" feature included. The other way is simply to customize your channel list to delete these SD duplicates.


It should not use the same channels numbers is the point. There are plenty of shows I record off the standard definition feed because I do not want to waste the disk space just for an upconverted SD signal.


----------



## ebonovic

rminsk said:


> It should not use the same channels numbers is the point. There are plenty of shows I record off the standard definition feed because I do not want to waste the disk space just for an upconverted SD signal.


But both channels are still available to you at all times.....
(If you don't filter out the SD or HD version).

You can access the SD version, via the guide.
Or hit the Channel UP after you tune the HD version of it.

I often do still record the SD version of some shows....


----------



## Billy66

rminsk said:


> It should not use the same channels numbers is the point. There are plenty of shows I record off the standard definition feed because I do not want to waste the disk space just for an upconverted SD signal.


I don't have a problem how it is now, I just watch the channel identifier, but I think I would prefer a different implementation. The maybe a leading digit with the same channel number behind it. Like 206 for ESPN and 5206 for ESPNHD etc.

I've never errored here, but it does seem to increase the likelihood that I might.


----------



## BlackBetty

I still think its just a matter of time before D* and TiVo get back into bed together. There is a good chance that after the appeal, E* will be forced to use TiVo. D* won't allow itself to be the only one out of E*, Comcast, cox, etc that doesn't have a TiVo alternative.


----------



## Billy66

How much time BlackBetty?


----------



## BlackBetty

Billy66 said:


> How much time BlackBetty?


< 12 months


----------



## Sir_winealot

Probably by October 15th.


----------



## Billy66

LOL good Sir.

I doubt you're right, but it sure will be fun if you are BlackBetty.


----------



## Sir_winealot

Billy66 said:


> LOL good Sir.
> 
> I doubt you're right, but it sure will be fun if you are BlackBetty.


Huh? Why would it be fun if I was BlackBetty? Billy ....have we gotten into the cooking sherry?


----------



## bigpuma

BlackBetty said:


> I still think its just a matter of time before D* and TiVo get back into bed together. There is a good chance that after the appeal, E* will be forced to use TiVo. D* won't allow itself to be the only one out of E*, Comcast, cox, etc that doesn't have a TiVo alternative.


There is no way E* can be forced to use TiVo, they may be required to pay a licensing fee or change their software to comply but it is unlikely they would start using TiVos.

Also how long until the lawsuit is settled, I figured it could take years for TiVo to get a meaningful judgement.


----------



## Billy66

Sir_winealot said:


> Huh? Why would it be fun if I was BlackBetty? Billy ....have we gotten into the cooking sherry?


You might make a fun BlackBetty. I don't know if you're either black, a Betty or both, but it might be fun.

Now if I had gotten into the sherry again, there would be much bigger problems than our recent Hatfield and Mckoy HD DVR feud. 

For the record, I think you're right about October 15.


----------



## BlackBetty

bigpuma said:


> There is no way E* can be forced to use TiVo, they may be required to pay a licensing fee or change their software to comply but it is unlikely they would start using TiVos.
> 
> Also how long until the lawsuit is settled, I figured it could take years for TiVo to get a meaningful judgement.


My understanding is that the appeals court could decide sometime this fall.

TiVo and E* may very well agree to license TiVo software on E* boxes as opposed to going after the full settlement amount. You are correct, I shouldn't have said "required".


----------



## Billy66

I wonder if E* will beat the October 15 date to market?


----------



## Citivas

Lord Vader said:


> Actually, you can hide the SD duplicates so that they don't appear at all in the guide. There are two ways to do this. One method is for those who have downloaded some beta versions of the software with the "Hide SD duplicates" feature included. The other way is simply to customize your channel list to delete these SD duplicates.


Thanks.

We like having both. We store up some shows until the holiday breaks and the summer and watch them when all the other shows are done. We made it through the whole summer on stored-up episodes . So to not run out of space, we are selective about what gets recorded in HD and what is in SD. A lot of shows aren't worth the HD recording.

In terms of customizing the favorite channel list, I will admit that I got so burned on this feature failing with TiVo that I got used to never using it.


----------



## Mark Lopez

RS4 said:


> There you go again - you just can't stop yourself from calling us names and making insinuations that just because we haven't physically touched the HR20, we can't make an intelligent decision





> zealot
> 
> a. One who is zealous, especially excessively so.
> b. A fanatically committed person.


How is that name callling?  If the shoe fits....

And yes, if someone is going to bash something they have not even used or just go by others *opinions* rather than their own first hand experience, then I don't think they are making an intelligent decision.



RS4 said:


> Did you see the entry about the guy who had his for 30 days and then gave up? How about the six month?


Yes, of course I saw those (among the many posts of people still having problems with their HR10 after several *years*). But did you also see the entries by countless people who are totally satisfied with the HR20? Of course not, somehow those don't seem to matter to you. 



RS4 said:


> Forget it, you just can't admit that there are a slew of people out there that don't like it, let alone thinking it is better then the Tivo.


Forget it, you just can't admit that there are a slew of people out there that do like it, let alone think it is better then the Tivo.


----------



## lew

A person that uses dual buffers extensively doesn't have to use the HR20 to know it doesn't have a feature they want.

A person who likes to be able to economically replace the internal drive in their DVR also knows the HR20 isn't for them. They don't have to try the unit.

Of course those people shouldn't hold their beath waiting for DTV to go back to tivo. A S3 tivo combined with cable or FiOS is way to go.



Mark Lopez said:


> And yes, if someone is going to bash something they have not even used or just go by others *opinions* rather than their own first hand experience, then I don't think they are making an intelligent decision.


----------



## milominderbinder

Lord Vader said:


> Actually, you can hide the SD duplicates so that they don't appear at all in the guide. There are two ways to do this. One method is for those who have downloaded some beta versions of the software with the "Hide SD duplicates" feature included. The other way is simply to customize your channel list to delete these SD duplicates.


Lord Vader gives two good solutions.

You can actually turn on an HD only filter in only 3 or 4 clicks:

If your Guide button works as a Guide button:
[GUIDE] [GUIDE] [CHAN \/] [SELECT]

On some DIRECTV Receivers the Guide button is broken and does not bring up the Guide. In that case the 3 keystrokes are:
[GUIDE] [CHAN \/] [SELECT]

Either way you are a split second away from the all HD filter.

- Craig


----------



## bigpuma

lew said:


> A person who likes to be able to economically replace the internal drive in their DVR also knows the HR20 isn't for them. They don't have to try the unit.


How is it cheaper to replace a drive on a TiVo versus an HR20?

You can swap out the internal drive if you are willing to open up your box, just like a TiVo and you don't even have to set up the drive first. If you don't want to open up the box you can use an eSata drive.


----------



## lew

bigpuma said:


> How is it cheaper to replace a drive on a TiVo versus an HR20?
> 
> You can swap out the internal drive if you are willing to open up your box, just like a TiVo and you don't even have to set up the drive first. If you don't want to open up the box you can use an eSata drive.


HR20 is a leased box. Some users may not be comfortable opening up a box they don't own.

The upgrade instructions for the HR20 seem to be a lot more delicate and not as straight forward as the tivo units.


----------



## bonscott87

lew said:


> HR20 is a leased box. Some users may not be comfortable opening up a box they don't own.
> 
> The upgrade instructions for the HR20 seem to be a lot more delicate and not as straight forward as the tivo units.


Just plug in an eSata, restart and you're done. Can't get any easier then that. 750 GB for $200 sounds pretty cheap to me.


----------



## bigpuma

lew said:


> HR20 is a leased box. Some users may not be comfortable opening up a box they don't own.


I don't get that, if someone is willing to open up their TiVo I don't see why this would stop them from openning up their HR20.



> The upgrade instructions for the HR20 seem to be a lot more delicate and not as straight forward as the tivo units.


It may be more difficult to open up an HR20-700 but it requires no use of your PC and a linux boot CD. That seems easier to me.


----------



## Lord Vader

HR20-700s are very difficult to open; HR20-100s are much easier. There's a big difference between the two where this is concerned.


----------



## lew

Lord Vader said:


> HR20-700s are very difficult to open; HR20-100s are much easier. There's a big difference between the two where this is concerned.


Thank you.


----------



## milominderbinder

bonscott87 said:


> Just plug in an eSata, restart and you're done. Can't get any easier then that. 750 GB for $200 sounds pretty cheap to me.


I think everyone is missing this.

You do not need to open the receiver. Just unplug the power to the receiver. Plug in the eSATA. Plug the receiver back in.

Upgrade complete.

- Craig


----------



## robortho

how does one hook up an esata to the hr 10-250 or the hr 20?


----------



## newsposter

milominderbinder said:


> I think everyone is missing this.
> 
> You do not need to open the receiver. Just unplug. Plug in the eSATA. Plug the receiver back in.
> 
> Upgrade complete.
> 
> - Craig


I understand why, but too bad it can't be seen all as one drive.


----------



## bonscott87

robortho said:


> how does one hook up an esata to the hr 10-250 or the hr 20?


HR10 you don't.

HR20 you plug into the eSata port and reboot. Done.


----------



## Lord Vader

newsposter said:


> I understand why, but too bad it can't be seen all as one drive.


Not now it can't, but there have been reports that DirecTV might alter this in the future to allow everything to appear as one drive. Time will tell.


----------



## Cudahy

Still no word about Malone taking over? Why is this dragging on so long? 
Is the halfhour Tivo ad on Directv last night significant? Didn't realize there are still a lot of people buying Directivos.


----------



## Billy66

It's not significant Cudahy. You really should let go of your delusions about TiVo and DirecTv collaborating again in the near term not to mention how long it would take to get a product were your fantasy to come true.


----------



## HiDefGator

You're wasting your time Billy. There are people out there that still insist Elvis is alive. He gets spotted about as often as the future DirecTivo prototype that is in super secret beta in Malone's bedroom.


----------



## bonscott87

Cudahy,

So you did not see the DirecTV presentation to Liberty a couple weeks ago? The entire future revenue revolves around the HR20/21 platform and sales of MPEG4 equipment are thru the roof right now and churn is at record lows. Tivo is nowhere to be found in the future plans of Liberty and DirecTV.


----------



## fasTLane

You would think they should just go on and not worry about the few holdouts for Tivo. Directv can afford to lose a smattering of customers. 

They'll handle it.


----------



## bonscott87

fasTLane said:


> You would think they should just go on and not worry about the few holdouts for Tivo. Directv can afford to lose a smattering of customers.
> 
> They'll handle it.


That they can. If they were to lose even 20,000 "Tivo diehards" they wouldn't even notice it. Heck, if they lost 200,000 they might notice it but then they would see they signed up that many new subs last month because of the new HD channels or Sunday Ticket.

*That's* the point some guys just don't seem to get like it's the end of DirecTV if there is no Tivo and there will be millions leaving. Just not the case and even a worse case senario would be just a blip on their long term radar. I can hear the board room talk now in 2010....."Remember when we had 16.25 million subs and dropped to 16 million cause we got rid of Tivo? We have 18 million subs now. Hmmmmmm"


----------



## Lord Vader

robortho said:


> how does one hook up an esata to the hr 10-250 or the hr 20?


Can't do it to the HR10-250 but it's easy as heck on the HR-20s. Just get an eSata drive, an eSata to eSata cable--not all work!--connect it to the unit, power it up, plug back in the HR20 and fire it up, and voila! It'll read the new drive and within minutes that will be your main drive.


----------



## Sir_winealot

bonscott87 said:


> That they can. If they were to lose even 20,000 "Tivo diehards" they wouldn't even notice it. Heck, if they lost 200,000 they might notice it but then they would see they signed up that many new subs last month because of the new HD channels or Sunday Ticket.
> 
> *That's* the point some guys just don't seem to get like it's the end of DirecTV if there is no Tivo and there will be millions leaving. Just not the case and even a worse case senario would be just a blip on their long term radar. I can hear the board room talk now in 2010....."Remember when we had 16.25 million subs and dropped to 16 million cause we got rid of Tivo? We have 18 million subs now. Hmmmmmm"


There's a big difference between doing good business and outright stupidity; certainly they can 'afford' to lose subs ...but they're not as flippant about it as you're making it sound.

Losing even _2K _ subs isn't something they'll giggle about in the board room ...they'll do everything in their power to try and keep customers from leaving (short of developing a new MPEG4 TiVo for them).

They get and keep customers one at a time, and if they ever start taking the "oh well" attitude that many here feel prevails, it will most certainly end up being _more _ than a 'blip' on their proverbial radar.

I have no idea if their relationship with TiVo will continue to develop from this point on, or if it is dead w/o any possibility of revival ...and truthfully, nor does anyone else.


----------



## primetime73

Redux said:


> Why? What is the need to come into this Tivo Community forum and attack Tivo? I have been asking this for months and I wish someone from your group could explain this to me.
> 
> Tivo advocates have NOT, as far as I've noticed, gone over to the DirecTV-centric forums to attack DirecTV. Have I missed something? Is this retaliation of some kind?
> 
> I woud not even _think_ of questioning moderators' decisions in allowing an avalanche of anti-Tivo posts in recent months, but why is the new ownerhip allowing this?


I come to this site because I still have an HR10 in my bedroom as my 3rd string DVR. I come here to find out why my suposedly infallable HR10 cut short a few recordings of Entourage this summer, has audio drops and inexplicably rebooted in the middle of the season finale of Lost. Thankfully I also recorded lost on one fo the HR20's w/o a hitch and Entourage had plenty of replays. As I said before look around this forum the HR10 still has plenty of issues from guide data, missed programs, lock ups, audio drops, etc. Does it make the HR20 any better no but claiming the HR20 is junk and the HR10 has no issues is ridiculous. I post to provide the other side of the story to the people who own an HR10 and are thinking about upgrading to the HR20. I read the posts by Tivo users how have never used the HR20 ripping it and calling it junk who have never even used the thing.

Why does it bother you and others so much to hear positive thing about the HR20? My HR20s haven't missed a thing in 6 and 9 months of running them, during that same time my lone remaing HR10 has had plenty of issues. It may be the opposite of your experience but it just points out that one person's complaint doesn't make a trend. There is currently a poll on dbstalk asking if you would recommend the HR20 to a friend and last I checked the yes response was between 90% and 95%. That tells me most people are happy with it, does it do everything every single person wants, No. Name me one product that does satisfy 100% of every wish but most people who have went in with an open mind are satisfied.

I post my experience with HR20 which has been nothing but good because I see posters bashing the product without having ever tried it or as I can cite on this forum statements that aren't true about the HR20 like that ther is no 30 second skip or you can't skip to tick or it takes too many button pushes to get to live TV or to delete a program or setup a season pass. I am just unwilling to stick my head in the sand and pretend there isn't another receiver out there that does what I need and in my experience actually using the thing, it does it better than Tivo's D* unit. Let me guess you think Apple's Ipod is the only MP3 player that works too or the IPhone is most advanced phone on the market because that is what you used first.

I still use both recievers so I can comment on them both from experience. Did the HR20 take time to get used to? Sure just like Tivo took time to get used to but I went into with an open mind and didn't assume the product would be junk because it didn't say Tivo. My wife hated learning the new layouts and GUI but she hated trying to figure the Tivo at first too, now she loves the HR20 and can't remember how to use the Tivo functions because she rarely uses them anymore.

Go back to my posts and you will see I said the Tivo is a fine product. I just don't think is the best anymore. I also wanted to point out some of the actual number regarding subs since a number of posters claim dropping Tivo has had some sort of negative impact on DirecTV or that it would severly cripple DirecTV when in fact it is barely a blip. DirecTV 's churn is down since the launch of the HR20, sub growth continues. Tivo is the company that has been floundering. This was all before the launch of the new HD channels in MPEG4 which is only going to help DirecTV more and further marginalize the usefulness of the HR10.


----------



## CosmoKramer

Sounds like you should be opening up a new thread if you are having problems with your HR10.

It is funny how people only bring up issues with HR10 when defending the HR20 but you do not see threads discussing issues. Yeah that is right you only look at threads for problems but post to defend the HR20!

I too have both the HR10 and the HR20 and the HR20 has a long way to go. Not saying it will not get there but it has a long way to go. I have to reboot mine at least once a week because it is connected to the network to view pics and listen to music. Oh yeah and that is still only half done too!



primetime73 said:


> I come to this site because I still have an HR10 in my bedroom as my 3rd string DVR. I come here to find out why my suposedly infallable HR10 cut short a few recordings of Entourage this summer, has audio drops and inexplicably rebooted in the middle of the season finale of Lost. Thankfully I also recorded lost on one fo the HR20's w/o a hitch and Entourage had plenty of replays. As I said before look around this forum the HR10 still has plenty of issues from guide data, missed programs, lock ups, audio drops, etc. Does it make the HR20 any better no but claiming the HR20 is junk and the HR10 has no issues is ridiculous. I post to provide the other side of the story to the people who own an HR10 and are thinking about upgrading to the HR20. I read the posts by Tivo users how have never used the HR20 ripping it and calling it junk who have never even used the thing.
> 
> Why does it bother you and others so much to hear positive thing about the HR20? My HR20s haven't missed a thing in 6 and 9 months of running them, during that same time my lone remaing HR10 has had plenty of issues. It may be the opposite of your experience but it just points out that one person's complaint doesn't make a trend. There is currently a poll on dbstalk asking if you would recommend the HR20 to a friend and last I checked the yes response was between 90% and 95%. That tells me most people are happy with it, does it do everything every single person wants, No. Name me one product that does satisfy 100% of every wish but most people who have went in with an open mind are satisfied.
> 
> I post my experience with HR20 which has been nothing but good because I see posters bashing the product without having ever tried it or as I can cite on this forum statements that aren't true about the HR20 like that ther is no 30 second skip or you can't skip to tick or it takes too many button pushes to get to live TV or to delete a program or setup a season pass. I am just unwilling to stick my head in the sand and pretend there isn't another receiver out there that does what I need and in my experience actually using the thing, it does it better than Tivo's D* unit. Let me guess you think Apple's Ipod is the only MP3 player that works too or the IPhone is most advanced phone on the market because that is what you used first.
> 
> I still use both recievers so I can comment on them both from experience. Did the HR20 take time to get used to? Sure just like Tivo took time to get used to but I went into with an open mind and didn't assume the product would be junk because it didn't say Tivo. My wife hated learning the new layouts and GUI but she hated trying to figure the Tivo at first too, now she loves the HR20 and can't remember how to use the Tivo functions because she rarely uses them anymore.
> 
> Go back to my posts and you will see I said the Tivo is a fine product. I just don't think is the best anymore. I also wanted to point out some of the actual number regarding subs since a number of posters claim dropping Tivo has had some sort of negative impact on DirecTV or that it would severly cripple DirecTV when in fact it is barely a blip. DirecTV 's churn is down since the launch of the HR20, sub growth continues. Tivo is the company that has been floundering. This was all before the launch of the new HD channels in MPEG4 which is only going to help DirecTV more and further marginalize the usefulness of the HR10.


----------



## Matt L

primetime73 said:


> Why does it bother you and others so much to hear positive thing about the HR20? My HR20s haven't missed a thing in 6 and 9 months of running them, during that same time my lone remaing HR10 has had plenty of issues.


It's that attitude that inflames the "He said, She said" type of discussions. Question, why does it bother you to hear good things about TiVo? You've obviously moved on. If you are so unhappy with your HR-10 call D and I'm sure they will give you deal on a machine you like better. You have a problem with your HR10 so post a new topic or find an existing one, why come here?

You know what? There are a lot of us here that LIKE our HR10-250 and have no or little issues with it. And there are many HR20 owners tat feel the same. Thing is I'm not in their forum basically telling people to "move on" or "get over it".

The simple fact is a some point all of us will make a decision on which direction to go in. Some may opt for more HD choices and get the HR20, and some will simply walk away for D. Odds are I will be in the latter group. Give me the HR20 with no strings and I might take it. However I am not going to lock myself into a 2 year contract when I can pick up a Hd TiVo for $299, and ATT is running Lightspeed through my neighborhood at the moment. Odds are D won't even miss my $100+/mo.


----------



## koponen

Matt L said:


> It's that attitude that inflames the "He said, She said" type of discussions. Question, why does it bother you to hear good things about TiVo? You've obviously moved on. If you are so unhappy with your HR-10 call D and I'm sure they will give you deal on a machine you like better. You have a problem with your HR10 so post a new topic or find an existing one, why come here?
> 
> You know what? There are a lot of us here that LIKE our HR10-250 and have no or little issues with it. And there are many HR20 owners tat feel the same. Thing is I'm not in their forum basically telling people to "move on" or "get over it".
> 
> The simple fact is a some point all of us will make a decision on which direction to go in. Some may opt for more HD choices and get the HR20, and some will simply walk away for D. Odds are I will be in the latter group. Give me the HR20 with no strings and I might take it. However I am not going to lock myself into a 2 year contract when I can pick up a Hd TiVo for $299, and ATT is running Lightspeed through my neighborhood at the moment. Odds are D won't even miss my $100+/mo.


hd tivo is way better than it's so-called close compies.


----------



## sjberra

koponen said:


> hd tivo is way better than it's so-called close compies.


Matter of opinion


----------



## Billy66

I'm still trying to figure out what a close compie is.


----------



## LlamaLarry

copies


----------



## Billy66

Still deosn't make sense because the TiVoHD was the last to market. Nothing available today could have compied it.


----------



## RS4

primetime73 said:


> I come to this site because I still have an HR10 in my bedroom as my 3rd string DVR. I come here to find out why my suposedly infallable HR10 cut short a few recordings of Entourage this summer, has audio drops and inexplicably rebooted in the middle of the season finale of Lost. Thankfully I also recorded lost on one fo the HR20's w/o a hitch and Entourage had plenty of replays. As I said before look around this forum the HR10 still has plenty of issues from guide data, missed programs, lock ups, audio drops, etc. Does it make the HR20 any better no but claiming the HR20 is junk and the HR10 has no issues is ridiculous. I post to provide the other side of the story to the people who own an HR10 and are thinking about upgrading to the HR20. I read the posts by Tivo users how have never used the HR20 ripping it and calling it junk who have never even used the thing.
> 
> Why does it bother you and others so much to hear positive thing about the HR20? My HR20s haven't missed a thing in 6 and 9 months of running them, during that same time my lone remaing HR10 has had plenty of issues. It may be the opposite of your experience but it just points out that one person's complaint doesn't make a trend. There is currently a poll on dbstalk asking if you would recommend the HR20 to a friend and last I checked the yes response was between 90% and 95%. That tells me most people are happy with it, does it do everything every single person wants, No. Name me one product that does satisfy 100% of every wish but most people who have went in with an open mind are satisfied.
> 
> I post my experience with HR20 which has been nothing but good because I see posters bashing the product without having ever tried it or as I can cite on this forum statements that aren't true about the HR20 like that ther is no 30 second skip or you can't skip to tick or it takes too many button pushes to get to live TV or to delete a program or setup a season pass. I am just unwilling to stick my head in the sand and pretend there isn't another receiver out there that does what I need and in my experience actually using the thing, it does it better than Tivo's D* unit. Let me guess you think Apple's Ipod is the only MP3 player that works too or the IPhone is most advanced phone on the market because that is what you used first.
> 
> I still use both recievers so I can comment on them both from experience. Did the HR20 take time to get used to? Sure just like Tivo took time to get used to but I went into with an open mind and didn't assume the product would be junk because it didn't say Tivo. My wife hated learning the new layouts and GUI but she hated trying to figure the Tivo at first too, now she loves the HR20 and can't remember how to use the Tivo functions because she rarely uses them anymore.
> 
> Go back to my posts and you will see I said the Tivo is a fine product. I just don't think is the best anymore. I also wanted to point out some of the actual number regarding subs since a number of posters claim dropping Tivo has had some sort of negative impact on DirecTV or that it would severly cripple DirecTV when in fact it is barely a blip. DirecTV 's churn is down since the launch of the HR20, sub growth continues. Tivo is the company that has been floundering. This was all before the launch of the new HD channels in MPEG4 which is only going to help DirecTV more and further marginalize the usefulness of the HR10.


I'm glad you like the HR20. You quoted a poll from dbstalk, however I just saw a recent thread from there that showed just about the opposite of what you're saying. The topic of the thread was 'would you recommend the HR20 as a Tivo replacement?' and less then 1/3 of the respondents did, another 1/5 said no and the remainder said to use the Tivo for everything except the new HD, or keep it as insurance, or it was the only game in town for mpeg4, or they had mixed feelings.

That kind of sentiment is more of what I read all the time - here, dbstalk, and other places on the net. That is nothing close to what you and others lead us to believe. What that says to many of us Tivo owners is that the HR20 is not what we want - especially if we have to use it for 2-years without getting it on a trial period.

So, while we're glad that you and others enjoy the box, please keep in mind that this is a Tivo forum, and that is the main interest of most of the viewers here.


----------



## Billy66

RS4 is sounding more and more like Charlie Brown's teacher....


----------



## bonscott87

Billy66 said:


> RS4 is sounding more and more like Charlie Brown's teacher....


Yea, what he doesn't get it that it doesn't matter if people might *prefer* a Tivo based unit. If the HR20 is "good enough" then it will satisfy 98% of their customers and business will go on as usual. I mean I would "prefer" to drive a Corvette but guess what, my Kia works just fine and gets to be work and back with no problems.

RS4 likes to quote people that say "I like the HR20 good enough and it's ok but if there was a Tivo based unit I'd jump on it". Ummm, ok. All that proves is that if there was a Tivo based unit they would use it, but since there isn't one they are ok with what they have. Now honestly that sounds like DirecTV is doing just fine. Sure that person might prefer a Tivo but they are staying with DirecTV and paying 75+ bucks a month if not more because the HR20 is "good enough".

And I still don't get his rants. Great, the HR20 stinks in some people's eyes. Some HR20 owners would prefer a Tivo unit if available. Guess what....it's not available and won't be. If you want Tivo and want these new HD channels then GO TO CABLE ALREADY and be done with it.

Nuff said. 

And I can't wait to get a response, it's entertaining to me again for some reason.


----------



## ebonovic

RS4 said:


> 'would you recommend the HR20 as a Tivo replacement?' and


Can you post the exact link to that thread, as I would like to take a look at it.

As there was no thread titled: "would you recommend the HR20 as a Tivo replacement"


----------



## 20TIL6

OK, not to talk stock here. I know that is forbidden. But this was just released by Citigroup/Smith Barney. In case you did not know, today was a big day for TiVo in regard to its patent infringement case agains EchoStar. In the analysis, the analyst cites possible warming relations between TiVo and DirecTV as part of his evaluation of TiVo's future.

We believe the appeals case represents an attractive risk/reward opportunity 
for TIVO. In the event the company wins, we could see up to $100 million in 
damages that equate to roughly 13% of the company's enterprise value. 
Furthermore, TIVO would likely see a large ongoing annuity stream from either 
DISH or cable MSO's that may be more open to licensing TIVO's technology 
that presumably TIVO would demand higher pricing on. Given that neither of 
these benefits are in our numbers or street expectations, we see no downside 
to earnings should TIVO lose. Clearly TIVO's stock would be hurt in the 
event they lose, but we believe the stock would trade down purely on 
sentiment (and shorts rebuilding their positions) and not fundamentals as 
TIVO would still have the opportunity to grow its business through the 
current line up of cable MSO deals, DVR advertising, viewer monitoring 
services, the new retail HD box, *and through potential improvements with 
DTV.*

In the event TIVO prevails, we could see the stock pushing towards $10 per 
share with further upside dependent upon the magnitude of future DISH/MSO 
annuity streams. If TIVO loses, we believe the stock will find support at 
roughly $5 per share, especially as we believe the intrinsic value of the 
current installed customer base is worth about $6 per share and existing MSO 
deals should provide opportunity for growth for many years to come regardless 
of the outcome in TIVO's patent litigation against DISH. Overall, we continue 
to recommend investors buy TIVO as the company benefits from: 1) the Cox, 
Comcast, and Seven MSO deals; *2) potential improvements in DTV due to 
changes in ownership;* and 3) monetizing DVR advertising opportunities. We 
would reiterate our view that TIVO should ultimately win more business 
through its ability to make better DVR services and does not need to rely on 
the enforcement of intellectual property rights. We maintain our Buy rating 
and fundamental 12-month price target of $12.


----------



## TyroneShoes

bonscott87 said:


> ...I would "prefer" to drive a Corvette but guess what, my Kia works just fine and gets to be work and back with no problems...And I can't wait to get a response, it's entertaining to me again for some reason.


IMHO, your analogy is flawed. The HR10 compared to the HR20 is not like one perfectly serviceable car having warming cup holders and the other perfectly serviceable car not having them, a better comparison would be that the HR10 is like a car that gets you almost everywhere you want to go, elegantly and in style, while the HR20 is more like a car that gets you everywhere except that it's too unreliable to get you there every time and too dangerous to be driven on the freeway, so you have to take surface streets and you get there an hour later.

Kias are great. I would prefer a Kia having once owned a Corvette. You don't hear a lot of Kia bashing. There's probably a good reason for that. We do hear a lot of HR20 bashing. There's probably a good reason for that, as well.


----------



## sjberra

TyroneShoes said:


> IMHO, your analogy is flawed. The HR10 compared to the HR20 is not like one perfectly serviceable car having warming cup holders and the other perfectly serviceable car not having them, a better comparison would be that the HR10 is like a car that gets you almost everywhere you want to go, elegantly and in style, while the HR20 is more like a car that gets you everywhere except that it's too unreliable to get you there every time and too dangerous to be driven on the freeway, so you have to take surface streets and you get there an hour later.
> 
> Kias are great. I would prefer a Kia having once owned a Corvette. You don't hear a lot of Kia bashing. There's probably a good reason for that. We do hear a lot of HR20 bashing. There's probably a good reason for that, as well.


Given personal expierence with multiple HR10's that where replaced for problems, I would reverse your comparision. Not to mention all the problems that are posted here on the HR10.

Still have one HR10 in the play room, it got moved there when the Hr20 was installed, it still has the same type of issues that it expierenced when it was in the living room - spontaneous restarts, missed recordings, lockups, etc. Really got tired of the scream of anguish from the youngest when Charlie and Lola or Dora the Explorer did not record right or the system restarted in the middle of the playback/record


----------



## CosmoKramer

MY experience is the exact opposite in that have had multiple problems with my HR20 and none with my HR10. Not to mention all the problems that are posted at DBStalk compared to the number here.

And yes like you my HR10 is in my playroom and it still records everything that it is suppose too. The HR20 is far from being perfect and I did wait along time after it came out just to avoid the major problems with a new role out. It is so bad that I plan on leaving D* not to follow Tivo but switch to Uverse when available in my area.



sjberra said:


> Given personal expierence with multiple HR10's that where replaced for problems, I would reverse your comparision. Not to mention all the problems that are posted here on the HR10.
> 
> Still have one HR10 in the play room, it got moved there when the Hr20 was installed, it still has the same type of issues that it expierenced when it was in the living room - spontaneous restarts, missed recordings, lockups, etc. Really got tired of the scream of anguish from the youngest when Charlie and Lola or Dora the Explorer did not record right or the system restarted in the middle of the playback/record


----------



## sjberra

CosmoKramer said:


> MY experience is the exact opposite in that have had multiple problems with my HR20 and none with my HR10. Not to mention all the problems that are posted at DBStalk compared to the number here.
> 
> And yes like you my HR10 is in my playroom and it still records everything that it is suppose too. The HR20 is far from being perfect and I did wait along time after it came out just to avoid the major problems with a new role out. It is so bad that I plan on leaving D* not to follow Tivo but switch to Uverse when available in my area.


Perfect example that both units have issues, neither are the perfect salvation to all mankind as it is put across. Have the exaqct opposite, the HR20 runs a lot better then the HR10. Althought I know exacltly when the HR10 in the play room will be disconnected - when D* releases the Toon Disney and Cartoon Network in MPEG4, that will be the burial call for the last HR10 that I own


----------



## RS4

Billy66 said:


> RS4 is sounding more and more like Charlie Brown's teacher....


I'm sorry, I don't know who Charlie Brown's teacher is.  Maybe you'd care to enlighten me.


----------



## Lord Vader

He was referring to the voice. All adults' voices on the Peanuts shows were warbled, "Waw waw waw wawwwww's" (or something like that).


----------



## RS4

bonscott87 said:


> Yea, what he doesn't get it that it doesn't matter if people might *prefer* a Tivo based unit. If the HR20 is "good enough" then it will satisfy 98% of their customers and business will go on as usual. I mean I would "prefer" to drive a Corvette but guess what, my Kia works just fine and gets to be work and back with no problems.
> 
> RS4 likes to quote people that say "I like the HR20 good enough and it's ok but if there was a Tivo based unit I'd jump on it". Ummm, ok. All that proves is that if there was a Tivo based unit they would use it, but since there isn't one they are ok with what they have. Now honestly that sounds like DirecTV is doing just fine. Sure that person might prefer a Tivo but they are staying with DirecTV and paying 75+ bucks a month if not more because the HR20 is "good enough".
> 
> And I still don't get his rants. Great, the HR20 stinks in some people's eyes. Some HR20 owners would prefer a Tivo unit if available. Guess what....it's not available and won't be. If you want Tivo and want these new HD channels then GO TO CABLE ALREADY and be done with it.
> 
> Nuff said.
> 
> And I can't wait to get a response, it's entertaining to me again for some reason.


All this says to me is that you are willing to settle for second best while the Tivo owners want the best.

You take the attitude that we can bend over and accept it from DirecTV. I prefer to take the attitude that we've had the best and we need to let DirecTV know that we don't want their imitation.

Your present an image of 'take it or leave it... that's all you're gonna get from DirecTV, because DirecTV doesn't care about you squirts'. Well, that may be true, but I prefer to let people know they are settling for second best and it may not be too late to let DirecTV know - especially with new owners taking over.

I happen to believe that DirecTV doesn't want to lose any good-paying customers, especially those that pay more then the average customer.


----------



## Billy66

RS4 said:


> I'm sorry, I don't know who Charlie Brown's teacher is.  Maybe you'd care to enlighten me.


Really? I thought that was universal. Clikc the link.

http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/play/port_lofi.cfm/sound_iid.4741


----------



## sjberra

RS4 said:


> All this says to me is that you are willing to settle for second best while the Tivo owners want the best.
> 
> You take the attitude that we can bend over and accept it from DirecTV. I prefer to take the attitude that we've had the best and we need to let DirecTV know that we don't want their imitation.
> 
> Your present an image of 'take it or leave it... that's all you're gonna get from DirecTV, because DirecTV doesn't care about you squirts'. Well, that may be true, but I prefer to let people know they are settling for second best and it may not be too late to let DirecTV know - especially with new owners taking over.
> 
> I happen to believe that DirecTV doesn't want to lose any good-paying customers, especially those that pay more then the average customer.


Second best/best is just an opinion, both systems have issues, neither is the all knowing salvation to all the ills of mankind and junk TV programs. Really do not care if the interface is Tivo, Directv, or a drunk monkey on a bicycle, the end point is content.

At this time it is not an image of take it or leave it, it is just that - want the MPEG4 channels this year, and the extra cost sports packages next year - get the new unit, people are only "settling for second best" in your opinion, personally I thought the TIVO interface is clunky. If you want to let them know, then that is great - but people can make up their own mind on which they prefer. Yes I still have a HR10, yes it is in use in a minor capacity in the kids play room, yes when the new MPEG 4 channels for kids show up, it will be gone from there, maybe it's next home is out in the garage while I work on the cars.


----------



## bonscott87

RS4 said:


> All this says to me is that you are willing to settle for second best while the Tivo owners want the best.
> 
> You take the attitude that we can bend over and accept it from DirecTV. I prefer to take the attitude that we've had the best and we need to let DirecTV know that we don't want their imitation.
> 
> Your present an image of 'take it or leave it... that's all you're gonna get from DirecTV, because DirecTV doesn't care about you squirts'. Well, that may be true, but I prefer to let people know they are settling for second best and it may not be too late to let DirecTV know - especially with new owners taking over.
> 
> I happen to believe that DirecTV doesn't want to lose any good-paying customers, especially those that pay more then the average customer.


I'm not taking it or leaving it. I'm enjoying 30+ new HD channels right now and I've already seen 2 hockey games in HD that I wouldn't have without an MPEG4 receiver.  
So let's see, I can settle for "second best" as you say and have 100 more HD channels. Or I can go with the best and have crappy cable service and 10 HD channels at double the cost. Geeeeee, guess which I will go with. 
But that's my choice. 
If you have a good cable option then take it.....please take it.

I know several people that have HD and DirecTV. All of them have an HR20 now. A good number of them would prefer a Tivo based unit just as you suggest. But guess what, they all LOVE the new HD channels and they all have said the HR20 is good enough for them and some of the "die hards" are starting to like some of the new features. They move on to get the programming they want.

Guess what? "Good enough" keeps the money flowing to DirecTV's pockets. So maybe a Tivo is better then the HR20. So what? DirecTV just has to make "good enough". Look at Dish Network and their 13+ million subs. Never had Tivo. I'd guess their DVR must be good enough as well huh?

Look, the thing *you* don't understand is that ALL companies are "take it or leave it".
You think Dish Network gives you a choice? No
You think Cable gives you a choice? Sorta. Only reason there is a choice at all is because of the government but they don't make it easy by just barely supporting cable cards.

You will find no multichannel provider out there that cares one lick about you or anyone else. They only care about doing it good enough to keep their stock holders happy first, customers happy enough second.

And "second best" is only your opinion yet you state it as fact.

I personally have never claimed the HR20 is "better" then the Tivo. I like it better and I think it has many features that are better. But the Tivo also has things that are better. There are good and bad about both units. 
BUT YOU HAVE NO CHOICE if you want the new and soon all HD outside OTA.
So you either deal with the HR20 or move on. You obviously can't accept that fact.


----------



## Cudahy

I just can't figure out why people who have left Tivo still post here and are so upset that many people want to stick with Tivo. The argument that there is no way Malone will give DTV customers a choice seems to be a desperately held belief. Why do they care? 
For Tivo lovers it's secondary whether a new box comes in a few months or a year. 
If Malone has enjoyed Tivo(as has been reported a number of times)and notices that Directv may actually be able to retain more customers and make more MONEY by reaching an agreement with Tivo - then he'll do it. It may or may not happen but it's strange that some people desperately need to believe that it can't.


----------



## fasTLane

Strange isn't it? We all have our theories.


----------



## bigpuma

Cudahy said:


> I just can't figure out why people who have left Tivo still post here and are so upset that many people want to stick with Tivo. The argument that there is no way Malone will give DTV customers a choice seems to be a desperately held belief. Why do they care?
> For Tivo lovers it's secondary whether a new box comes in a few months or a year.
> If Malone has enjoyed Tivo(as has been reported a number of times)and notices that Directv may actually be able to retain more customers and make more MONEY by reaching an agreement with Tivo - then he'll do it. It may or may not happen but it's strange that some people desperately need to believe that it can't.


Personally I would love DirecTV to have an option for an Mpeg-4 HD TiVo, but I just don't see this happening. Why would it? It might preserve a few thousand current HR10 owners but that's it. On the other hand the demand for the HR20 has been pretty high and a lot of former HR10 owners have already migrated. Keeping all DirecTV receivers on the same basic software makes support costs much less. I don't think that anyone desperately needs to believe that DirecTV won't create an Mpeg-4 capable TiVo we just see the evidence and are realistic about the possibility.

That said let's say DirecTV does decide to develop an Mpeg-4 TiVo, how long do you think it would take to hit the market. IIRC the Comcast TiVo DVR was announced back at CES in January of 2006 and there was a suggestion that it would be available by August of 2006. Now it is October of 2007 and they are still beta testing it almost 2 years later.


----------



## Billy66

Cudahy said:


> I just can't figure out why people who have left Tivo still post here and are so upset that many people want to stick with Tivo. The argument that there is no way Malone will give DTV customers a choice seems to be a desperately held belief. Why do they care?
> For Tivo lovers it's secondary whether a new box comes in a few months or a year.
> If Malone has enjoyed Tivo(as has been reported a number of times)and notices that Directv may actually be able to retain more customers and make more MONEY by reaching an agreement with Tivo - then he'll do it. It may or may not happen but it's strange that some people desperately need to believe that it can't.


Just hate to see you hold onto hope that's so false it's almost a fantasy. If you need to believe it, believe it.

BTW, most of the people about which you speak have not left TiVo.


----------



## 20TIL6

Cudahy said:


> I just can't figure out why people who have left Tivo still post here and are so upset that many people want to stick with Tivo. The argument that there is no way Malone will give DTV customers a choice seems to be a desperately held belief. Why do they care?
> For Tivo lovers it's secondary whether a new box comes in a few months or a year.
> If Malone has enjoyed Tivo(as has been reported a number of times)and notices that Directv may actually be able to retain more customers and make more MONEY by reaching an agreement with Tivo - then he'll do it. It may or may not happen but it's strange that some people desperately need to believe that it can't.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=366754


----------



## Billy66

bigpuma said:


> That said let's say DirecTV does decide to develop an Mpeg-4 TiVo, how long do you think it would take to hit the market. IIRC the Comcast TiVo DVR was announced back at CES in January of 2006 and there was a suggestion that it would be available by August of 2006. Now it is October of 2007 and they are still beta testing it almost 2 years later.


Actually March of 05. We're almost three years without a product to consumers.


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## 20TIL6

There's a hell of a lot more going on here than just a product development issue. In fact, the delay in the Comcast/TiVo is not a product development issue at all. Much bigger issues exist, and a lot of those issues took a big step in getting resolved this week.


----------



## BBURNES

Care to elaborate?


----------



## SullyND

bigpuma said:


> Personally I would love DirecTV to have an option for an Mpeg-4 HD TiVo, but I just don't see this happening. Why would it?


If Comcast is successful at selling TiVo as an "Upgrade" why wouldn't DirecTV want to try the same thing? I'd gladly pay 2x my DVR fee if my DVRs could all be TiVos.



bigpuma said:


> That said let's say DirecTV does decide to develop an Mpeg-4 TiVo, how long do you think it would take to hit the market. IIRC the Comcast TiVo DVR was announced back at CES in January of 2006 and there was a suggestion that it would be available by August of 2006. Now it is October of 2007 and they are still beta testing it almost 2 years later.


It would depend on how TiVo has developed the Comcast port and how far they have gone to make it hardware neutral (Isn't it Java based?) - it would have been silly for TiVo to not attempt this given their hope of extending it to additional CableCos and Comcast having both Moto and SA hardware (and we know they're now developing it for the SA hardware as well). A New DirecTiVo does not have to be a hardware solution, it could be a software upgrade to the existing hardware platform just as Comcast is doing.

Hasn't it been reported the HR20 runs Linux?


----------



## BBURNES

bigpuma said:


> Personally I would love DirecTV to have an option for an Mpeg-4 HD TiVo, but I just don't see this happening. Why would it? It might preserve a few thousand current HR10 owners but that's it. On the other hand the demand for the HR20 has been pretty high and a lot of former HR10 owners have already migrated.
> 
> Why would it?
> 
> I agree that there are many HR10 users who have migrated. Also agree that content is king. No argument.
> 
> However, there are many key reasons to tempt them. Pick any (or any combination) of the following:
> 
> 1) The TiVo brand name in itself. Beginning any time now, Comcast (#1 MSO) will begin offering the brand that the average consumer would rather have (all else equal.) Then Cox will follow. Likely others. Most important, they'll promote the heck out of it -- as a key point of difference from E* and D*. If I'm D*do I want to allow the cable cos to have the advantage, to be the only place they can get TiVo?
> 
> Some may say "consumers don't care what DVR they have" and offer evidence of HR10 customers migrating as proof. Well, the only TiVo choice they currently have is to spend $299 to get the TiVo HD. Shortly, at least at Comcast, they'll have a choice, an easier and less expensive choice, a choice that may get "fence sitters" to go cable.
> 
> 2) Quality. DirecTV honed its reputation and brand on innovation, picture quality, etc. Even if the HR20 is a serviceable box, it doesn't help reinforce DirecTV's brand, the company that has "the best".
> 
> What I find remarkable in this thread is that most everyone compares the HR10 to the HR20. The HR10, state-of-the-art at introduction, is now based on 3- nearly 4-year-old technology. There have been a couple of software updates, yes. But comparing these 2 units is like comparing a 2004 Lincoln with a 2007 Ford.
> 
> Imagine for a second if D* enabled the HR10's broadband connection and its Series 2 functionality. Now the comparison gets fairer.
> 
> Better yet, imagine D* built an M4 box with Series 3 functionality. There'd really be little comparison to the HR20. But most important, a box like that would reinforce DirecTV's reputation for quality and innovation. Something they could promote.
> 
> 3) Threat of lawsuit down the road. As I understand the agreement, TiVo has agreed not to sue D* over DVR IP issues only through 2010. If TiVo wins its lawsuit against E* as is likely, not impossible for D* to be sued. New ownership may not want to run that risk.
> 
> 4) Loss of some unhappy consumers to cable.
> 
> 5) Keeping migrated consumers happy. Many migrated consumers I've talked to are not happy with new unit. While alone it has not caused them to switch, next time they're in the market (after 2-yr commitment ends), and TiVo is available elsewhere at about the same cost, they may jump.
> 
> 6) The HD revolution. While this is mostly a TV issue, it is one of the key triggers that force consumers to go DVR shopping. TiVo themselves underestimated it.
> 
> I'll explain. Most SD Tivo owners (both SA and DirecTiVo) are generally very happy with their units. They're not out shopping for the best, newest TiVo in the market. The extremely passionate TiVo fans may shop for the latest/greatest. But the average consumer doesn't as a rule.
> 
> But when the SD consumer upgrades to HDTV, they simply CANNOT record in SD any longer. This trigger pushes SD TiVo consumers to go shopping. Thus, both D* consumers and TiVo consumers are back in play again (presuming they're outside of any long-term agreement.)
> 
> As more and more of D* customers are put back "in play" as they upgrade to HDTVs, they're at risk of being wooed by cable...and their TiVo.
> 
> 7) Liberty's new CEO is a TiVo fan and is looking for ways to continue to work together (per conversation I had with D* employee.)
> 
> Now, none of the above guarantees anything. And there are, of course, reasons they don't want to do it.
> 
> But there are plenty of reasons for them to be tempted to do it.


----------



## incog-neato

3 major reasons are support support and support .... D* has taken all their current equipment and given it virtually the same interface to make support simpler. The same reason they stopped selling 12 different brands of receivers.


SullyND said:


> If Comcast is successful at selling TiVo as an "Upgrade" why wouldn't DirecTV want to try the same thing?


----------



## Sir_winealot

Well, let's hope that D* doesn't 'support' the HR20 like it 'supports' the R15 in the coming months. 

I realize that they're not built by the same company (and thus far they've been working diligently to try and improve the HR20), but both being D* products, it scares me just a wee bit that they'll get to a certain point ...and stop paying them extra tech's overtime, lol.


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## Daniel

If I recall correctly, TiVo developers had to rewrite most of their software for the Comcast Motorola box, which was the initial delay. However, when they did that, they designed it to make it easy to port to other boxes, not just the Comcast Motorola box. (Java?) So future ports to other platforms shouldn't take anywhere near as long.

Also, the second delay with the Comcast port, was not TiVo, it was the length of time that Comcast needed to make their backend processes work with the TiVo software. From all indications, this part has been the primary cause for the most of the delay and is apparently the reason that it still hasn't been rolled out.

So, if they were given the go ahead to build it, I think that TiVo could bring a MPEG4 DirecTiVo box to market in a year and a port to the HR20 in six months. Of course, these times assume that they haven't done a lot of the work already just in case.


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## bonscott87

Sir_winealot said:


> Well, let's hope that D* doesn't 'support' the HR20 like it 'supports' the R15 in the coming months.
> 
> I realize that they're not built by the same company (and thus far they've been working diligently to try and improve the HR20), but both being D* products, it scares me just a wee bit that they'll get to a certain point ...and stop paying them extra tech's overtime, lol.


Actually the R15 has been getting a lot of updates lately. CE's nearly weekly just like the HR20. So while it may seem to have been abandoned it no longer is and there is active development on it. A new national release also just started spooling this week.


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## 20TIL6

<<Care to elaborate?>>

Comcast did not enter into this deal with TiVo for any other reason than a hedge. A hedge against a future finding that their in-house DVRs infringe on TiVo patents. What happened this week with regard to EchoStar is confirmation that their hedge was the right move. Comcast has no pressure, nor business need, to roll-out a single Comcast/TiVo box until they are sure not doing so would open up a vulnerability.

This is cable afterall. They don't do anything until they are forced.

My opinion is that the Comcast/TiVo, and the procedures to roll it out, have been in place for some time. I think Comcast has been waiting on the EchoStar appeal as an indication that they must do this. And I think it will roll within the next two weeks. All my opinion of course, but all indications are that EchoStar is going to lose their appeal.


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## ebonovic

Sir_winealot said:


> Well, let's hope that D* doesn't 'support' the HR20 like it 'supports' the R15 in the coming months.
> 
> I realize that they're not built by the same company (and thus far they've been working diligently to try and improve the HR20), but both being D* products, it scares me just a wee bit that they'll get to a certain point ...and stop paying them extra tech's overtime, lol.


I guess you haven't been seeing what is going on with the R15...
It has been very busy over the last few months..

And is almost just as active as the HR20 is now, with regards to the CE process... and getting updates, new features.


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## Matt L

bonscott87 said:


> Guess what? "Good enough" keeps the money flowing to DirecTV's pockets. So maybe a Tivo is better then the HR20. So what? DirecTV just has to make "good enough". Look at Dish Network and their 13+ million subs. Never had Tivo. I'd guess their DVR must be good enough as well huh?
> 
> Look, the thing *you* don't understand is that ALL companies are "take it or leave it".
> You think Dish Network gives you a choice? No
> You think Cable gives you a choice? Sorta. Only reason there is a choice at all is because of the government but they don't make it easy by just barely supporting cable cards.
> 
> You will find no multichannel provider out there that cares one lick about you or anyone else. They only care about doing it good enough to keep their stock holders happy first, customers happy enough second.


Your words echo the thoughts on the new breed of businessmen here and around the world. These are the MBA weenies who came to age in the late 80's and 90's. Their management style is to settle for "Good Enough" --excellence is an outmoded idea. The hell with what the customer wants, give them what they think is good enough and cheap enough. These dweebs had and have limited life experience and now they are in control of virtually every major industry in the world.

Sad, I can remember when manufactures and service providers strove to be the best, not just good enough. But that was back when America was a world leader in product development and manufacturing. A prime example of where this thinking gets you is GM, one the worldwide leader in autos for 70 or 80 years, then in the 70's and 80's they decided to opt for "good enough" and look where they are today --second to a Japanese upstart. People can spout all kinds of theory about material and labor costs, but if GM was selling cars as they did in the 50's and 60's the other problems wold be manageable, but they chose to give the public a mediocre product.

I believe there are very few of us here who, given the option, would not be willing to pay a bit more a month for TiVo service, after all many of dropped $1000 a couple of years ago. That's got to count for something.


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## Billy66

Matt L said:


> Your words echo the thoughts on the new breed of businessmen here and around the world. These are the MBA weenies who came to age in the late 80's and 90's. Their management style is to settle for "Good Enough" --excellence is an outmoded idea. The hell with what the customer wants, give them what they think is good enough and cheap enough. These dweebs had and have limited life experience and now they are in control of virtually every major industry in the world.


Yeah, these dweebs just don't get it. They act like the goal of business is to produce and sell at the point of maximum profit instead of sacrificing it to subsidize value for consumers that they are unwilling to pay for in mass. They just don't get it.


----------



## SullyND

ebonovic said:


> And is almost just as active as the HR20 is now, with regards to the CE process... and getting updates, new features.


And in related news... My two R15s are just as completely awful as ever. (In fact they seem to be worse recently).


----------



## Lord Vader

Matt L said:


> Your words echo the thoughts on the new breed of businessmen here and around the world. These are the MBA weenies who came to age in the late 80's and 90's. Their management style is to settle for "Good Enough" --excellence is an outmoded idea. The hell with what the customer wants, give them what they think is good enough and cheap enough. These dweebs had and have limited life experience and now they are in control of virtually every major industry in the world.
> 
> Sad, I can remember when manufactures and service providers strove to be the best, not just good enough. But that was back when America was a world leader in product development and manufacturing. A prime example of where this thinking gets you is GM, one the worldwide leader in autos for 70 or 80 years, then in the 70's and 80's they decided to opt for "good enough" and look where they are today --second to a Japanese upstart. People can spout all kinds of theory about material and labor costs, but if GM was selling cars as they did in the 50's and 60's the other problems wold be manageable, but they chose to give the public a mediocre product.
> 
> I believe there are very few of us here who, given the option, would not be willing to pay a bit more a month for TiVo service, after all many of dropped $1000 a couple of years ago. That's got to count for something.


GM's quality might not be as good as it once was--though I'd argue that--but the fact remains that labor and related costs add to its car prices more than foreign automakers' similar costs do. Do you know how much health care costs alone add to each GM vehicle's price? Somewhere from $5000 to $8000 per vehicle.


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## HiDefGator

Daniel said:


> Of course, these times assume that they haven't done a lot of the work already just in case.


Yeah. Because small engineering firms that can't turn a profit often undertake multi million dollar development projects just in case a client asks for them someday. And they do that by reverse engineering the HR20 since Directv had no reason to give them the source for it.


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## HiDefGator

bigpuma said:


> It might preserve a few thousand current HR10 owners but that's it.


There were never 2.7 million HR10 owners. The HR10 owners are all gone already for practical argument. What is left are 2.5 million SD DirecTivo owners. Until they buy a new TV they have no reason to upgrade.


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## jcaudle

Who knows if D* will get back in bed with tivo...probably not...I had an HR10 and went with Cox and the system 3 and now have a additional Tivo HD...don't regret leaving directv for a minute. I don't lose signal in a rain or snowstorm anymore and both units are outstanding and MRV and TTG and Esata are being enabled Nov 07...and that Directv remote was the most counter intuitive POS I have ever seen.


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## bonscott87

HiDefGator said:


> There were never 2.7 million HR10 owners. The HR10 owners are all gone already for practical argument. What is left are 2.5 million SD DirecTivo owners. Until they buy a new TV they have no reason to upgrade.


One would think. But Tivo has lost a quarter million DirecTV subs in the first half of the year. It's moving north of 125K a quarter now. So the DirecTivo sub base is shrinking and shrinking faster with each quarter. But it's to be expected, DirecTV hasn't offered a DirecTivo for over 2 years now.


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## Matt L

Billy66 said:


> Yeah, these dweebs just don't get it. They act like the goal of business is to produce and sell at the point of maximum profit instead of sacrificing it to subsidize value for consumers that they are unwilling to pay for in mass. They just don't get it.


funny , corporations were making money when they gave the customer a quality product. The thing is they can add a few pennies to their stock price and a few hundred thousand to their bonuses by giving the public and secon line product and pawning it off as the latest, greatest product.

Another satellite company cannot compete and offer us other options, like a new TiVo because D and E* have locked up the market, there is no competition, remember VOOM? It no longer is capitalism, it's a monopoly. Look at how all our SAT bills have gone up and our choices have gone down then roll your eyes.


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## TyroneShoes

Matt L said:


> funny , corporations were making money when they gave the customer a quality product. The thing is they can add a few pennies to their stock price and a few hundred thousand to their bonuses by giving the public and secon line product and pawning it off as the latest, greatest product.
> 
> Another satellite company cannot compete and offer us other options, like a new TiVo because D and E* have locked up the market, there is no competition, remember VOOM? It no longer is capitalism, it's a monopoly. Look at how all our SAT bills have gone up and our choices have gone down then roll your eyes.


Agreed, but VOOM is a bad example. VOOM had no content. The only folks buying VOOM were those who either had money to burn, were so jazzed by HD that they had to have everything available, including the bizzare travelogs and curling matches from some frozen fiord somewhere, or were sucker enough not to really check out the product first. Doomed to fail from day one, regardless of the competition.

All companies are greedy and self-serving, which somewhat reflects human nature in general. Sure, there are exceptions, but not many. Maybe we are without a reasonable replacement HD DirecTivo because DTV is greedy. I think that might be part of it. Maybe EchoStar is greedy (that's certainly been reflected in my experience with them). But maybe much of the reason is because Tivo itself was greedy, and wouldn't play ball. The guy with the gold makes the rules, but smaller smart companies learn how to slice themselves a piece of the pie. Maybe it all boils down to how smart, or not, Tom Rogers and his team were.


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## fasTLane

Matt L said:


> funny , corporations were making money when they gave the customer a quality product. The thing is they can add a few pennies to their stock price and a few hundred thousand to their bonuses by giving the public and secon line product and pawning it off as the latest, greatest product.


Which is why some will totally shun their latest and "greatest" on principle. :down:


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## Billy66

Matt L said:


> funny , corporations were making money when they gave the customer a quality product. The thing is they can add a few pennies to their stock price and a few hundred thousand to their bonuses by giving the public and secon line product and pawning it off as the latest, greatest product.


If you were running the company you would choose some profit over maximizing it? I doubt that. In your own personal life do you give more than you have to for items? If a seller accepts $X, do you choose to give them more because you want to be a higher "quality" customer?

Of course you don't. Customers are greedy and corporations are greedy. That's what makes the market run.

DTV has pushed some passed the point where now other options are evaluated and chosen (cable, fios etc). I'm not there yet with them, or maybe the alternate choices don't hold additional value to me.

That's how our system works.

Everyone should make their choice in the marketplace and know it's the right choice for them. Companies will adjust.


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## RS4

I think that if DirecTV doesn't offer a new Tivo product, they will start losing customers in big numbers when the 2-year commitment is up. I think it's attitude - DirecTV once offered a lot in innovations (offering Tivo, UltimateTV, etc) and customer service. They have fallen off dramatically since Murdoch took over.

I believe Tivo will grow in reputation and the cable and phone companies will become more competitive as they offer more HD. (We already see Comcast paying Tivo to upgrade another version of their dvrs. We see Tivo getting relationships with other suppliers, both here and in other countries.) I think folks will not want to be locked in using second rate equipment when they find there are alternatives to the DirecTV way of doing business.

In my mind, DirecTV has sent a clear signal about their change in attitude towards the customer. Unless they change that attitude in the next couple of years, I think they'll lose a lot of customers when it comes time to upgrade to the next generation product.

I think there has been a huge change in the balance of customers vs profit. I think a lot of folks are like me want to do business with a company they feel good about, and I think DirecTV is on a downward trend. No doubt they are riding high right now as you would expect with all of the hoopla of HD, but I think that will wear off when these 2-year commitments are up. 

We could see big changes if more customers have the chance to get faster speed broadband connections like FIOS offers. That will open up more internet-based video sources for a lot of us. We already see DirecTV and E* losing customers to FIOS.

I believe they could shift the perception by offering a Tivo follow-on dvr. It would once again show that balance has been shifted back to the customer. Right now, DirecTV is saying to customers, 'we used to offer the most highly-rated dvr, but now we don't'. 'You can't try our dvr at home on a trial basis and by the way, you have to sign up for a 2-year commitment.' 

I believe they would actually gain more profits by offering Tivo alongside their own. Many of us Tivo owners have brought family and friends to DirecTV. There were around 3 million DTivo users. If people are happy with their experience, they will bring family and friends. I don't think that will happen once the HD hoopla goes away.


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## Mark Lopez

RS4 said:


> I think that if DirecTV doesn't offer a new Tivo product, they will start losing customers in big numbers when the 2-year commitment is up.


<sigh> You just never give up do you? Do you just have everyone who thinks the HR20 is just fine on your ignore list, or do you just refuse to believe that there are many who like it and/or feel it is superior to Tivo?

Then people wonder why I keep using the terms 'Tivo zealots' & 'lemmings'.


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## bonscott87

LOL. Plus the fact that the R15 has been out *over* 2 years now, thus the first of the "i'm outta here after my 2 years is up" crowd should have been leaving by now. Not seeing DirecTV losing any subs yet. Plus I think when the R15 first came out it was still just a year. Yet DirecTV's sub numbers keep going up, churn is down. Hmmmmm...


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## bigpuma

RS4 said:


> I think that if DirecTV doesn't offer a new Tivo product, they will start losing customers in big numbers when the 2-year commitment is up.


That's a lot of wishful thinking. How many households are even left with only an HR10? Even if they all left DirecTV it probably wouldn't have that much impact.


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## 20TIL6

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=366754


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## Billy66

Why do you keep linking your lame ass thread 20TI6?

2/3 of the respondents in your poll disagree with you. More people (16) consider them not out of place than feel they are organized.(13)

Can't that silly thread stand on it's own merits?


----------



## 20TIL6

Billy66 said:


> Why do you keep linking your lame ass thread 20TI6?
> 
> 2/3 of the respondents in your poll disagree with you. More people (16) consider them not out of place than feel they are organized.(13)
> 
> Can't that silly thread stand on it's own merits?


Sorry Billy66, I should have been more direct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing


----------



## Billy66

Again, you're just trying to make the same point you failed to make in the other thread. You're practically alone in your ridiculous opinion there.

I understand if you don't want HR20 talk here. I understand if you don't like *opinions* that claim things about the HR20 that differ from your own opinion of it. I get all of that, but the whole conspiracy aspect of it is laughable and you otherwise seem like a normal thinker.


Anyway, this was discussed in your failed thread above. There isn't much to add really.


----------



## fasTLane

20TIL6 said:


> Sorry Billy66, I should have been more direct.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing


Astroturfing is putting it politely.


----------



## Matt L

Billy66 said:


> If you were running the company you would choose some profit over maximizing it? I doubt that. In your own personal life do you give more than you have to for items? If a seller accepts $X, do you choose to give them more because you want to be a higher "quality" customer?
> 
> Of course you don't. Customers are greedy and corporations are greedy. That's what makes the market run.
> 
> DTV has pushed some passed the point where now other options are evaluated and chosen (cable, fios etc). I'm not there yet with them, or maybe the alternate choices don't hold additional value to me.
> 
> That's how our system works.
> 
> Everyone should make their choice in the marketplace and know it's the right choice for them. Companies will adjust.


Sure we all want to make money. But you know what is truly missing? Pride. When I do a job I take pride in it, even if it costs me a little money. It's my reputation on the line. That is the ingredient that is sorely missing today. D and E* ship shoddy products, Both HR10-250's and HR 20's. They make us Alpha and Beta testers releasing products long before they are ready for the market. Is there any pride there?

There used to be manufactures who's brands we trusted. Who do you trust today? I can't think of a manufacturer that consistently produce a stellar product. Profit, or lets be really honest, greed, is the only motivator in the market today. The hell with craftsmanship, "Lets make that metal glide out of plastic, we'll save .005 per unit. So what if the dvd drawer moves a bit jerky and maybe it will fail next year --we can sell more."


----------



## Billy66

This is circular. The greed is at the consumer level too.

Competitively if the highest quality was where the highest profit could be gained, that would be happening. The reality is that there aren't enough consumers willing to compensate providers for that. 

I would think that there's plenty of pride in creating and running a successful company. That's their goal.


----------



## 20TIL6

Billy66 said:


> I get all of that, but the whole conspiracy aspect of it is laughable and you otherwise seem like a normal thinker.


I've never mentioned the word 'conspiracy'. An earlier reply to the poll mentioned that word as well, and this is how I answered. I think it is worth repeating.

_Conspiracy is a word charged with ethical or moral misgivings. I'm just wondering about a valid marketing plan. Ethical issues aside.

Again, this would be a valid marketing plan. Nothing illegal. Would it pass the "headline" test? Meaning, would DirecTV suffer any embarrassment if it was public knowledge as a news item? Maybe.

But corporations are very aware of the messaging capabilities of the Internet, especially a technology company like DirecTV.

I ask myself, does DirecTV have a message that they need to share with a rather important base of their customers? Would traditional marketing methods reach and influence this base to the degree DirecTV desires (transitioning from TiVo to the DirecTV DVR platform)? What are the obstacles? Where does this base go for information about this subject on their own? And, would this source of information be considered more trustworthy than DirecTV's own traditional marketing methods?_

BTW, two more people voted since I posted the link again. The results are interesting. But not as interesting as who has chosen not to enter this particular conversation.


----------



## Sir_winealot

ED said:


> I guess you haven't been seeing what is going on with the R15...
> It has been very busy over the last few months..
> 
> And is almost just as active as the HR20 is now, with regards to the CE process... and getting updates, new features.





SullyND said:


> And in related news... My two R15s are just as completely awful as ever. (In fact they seem to be worse recently).


let's hope this isn't a reflection on the future of the hr20, and that they continue to try an improve it. directv's follow through on the r15 certainly doesn't instill confidence (especially in light of the fact that it's been on the market for _years_, and they still can't get it right).


----------



## bonscott87

Sir_winealot said:


> let's hope this isn't a reflection on the future of the hr20, and that they continue to try an improve it. directv's follow through on the r15 certainly doesn't instill confidence (especially in light of the fact that it's been on the market for _years_, and they still can't get it right).


As mentioned the R15 is getting a lot of CE love over the last couple months and just had a new national release. It gets a nearly weekly CE now just like the HR20 so DirecTV is working on it and incorporating many of the HR20 advanced into it. Insert laughter from the haters here. 

One thing to keep in mind is that the R15 is based on NDS code (unsure if NDS is still behind it, I think so). I think we all agree it basically sucked was so they don't have a great base to start with.

The HR20 is completely different code, all done in house by DirecTV. No NDS in it. And you can tell as it's a lot better.

Both may have the same GUI but much different code under the hood.


----------



## Billy66

20TIL6 said:


> I've never mentioned the word 'conspiracy'. An earlier reply to the poll mentioned that word as well, and this is how I answered. I think it is worth repeating.
> 
> _Conspiracy is a word charged with ethical or moral misgivings. I'm just wondering about a valid marketing plan. Ethical issues aside.
> 
> Again, this would be a valid marketing plan. Nothing illegal. Would it pass the "headline" test? Meaning, would DirecTV suffer any embarrassment if it was public knowledge as a news item? Maybe.
> 
> But corporations are very aware of the messaging capabilities of the Internet, especially a technology company like DirecTV.
> 
> I ask myself, does DirecTV have a message that they need to share with a rather important base of their customers? Would traditional marketing methods reach and influence this base to the degree DirecTV desires (transitioning from TiVo to the DirecTV DVR platform)? What are the obstacles? Where does this base go for information about this subject on their own? And, would this source of information be considered more trustworthy than DirecTV's own traditional marketing methods?_
> 
> BTW, two more people voted since I posted the link again. The results are interesting. But not as interesting as who has chosen not to enter this particular conversation.


blah blah blah.

If you want to call someone out as a DTV marketing person, have the courage to do it.

You crack me up.


----------



## RS4

Billy66 said:


> This is circular. The greed is at the consumer level too.
> 
> Competitively if the highest quality was where the highest profit could be gained, that would be happening. The reality is that there aren't enough consumers willing to compensate providers for that.
> 
> I would think that there's plenty of pride in creating and running a successful company. That's their goal.


It appears to me that DirecTV isn't as concerned about pride as I once thought they were. If they had pride in their products, they would let us test them ahead of time.  They wouldn't need to force us into a 2-year term.

And yes I agree with you that many consumers want to pay the cheapest they can for anything. But I also believe there are plenty of folks who are willing to pay more for a higher-quality product.


----------



## 20TIL6

Billy66 said:


> blah blah blah.
> 
> If you want to call someone out as a DTV marketing person, have the courage to do it.
> 
> You crack me up.


Glad I could offer you a laugh then.


----------



## ebonovic

RS4 said:


> It appears to me that DirecTV isn't as concerned about pride as I once thought they were. If they had pride in their products, they would let us test them ahead of time.  They wouldn't need to force us into a 2-year term.


Again... for the umpteen-millionth time (I think we are about that high).

It has nothing to do with "pride" in their product... but the fact of the costs involved... and the "lack of faith" they have in customers...

The "model" they are using is no different then other industries...
Aka... the wireless phone model...

People want equipment at little to no cost, when that equipment is expensive.

Honestly... IMHO... I think DirecTV should simply offer the units, for their full price... like the phone companies do...

So those that don't want to commit to the term.... (So DirecTV and re-coop the cost of the unit).... they can allow it.

And it would very intresting to see how many people spend the $500ish for each unit, to avoid the contracts...

Also... I agree... they should give you the opportunity to try it.
So allow you to pay for the box and install upfront.... 
And then if you are "happy" with it... credit you down to the prices.


----------



## RS4

ebonovic said:


> Again... for the umpteen-millionth time (I think we are about that high).
> 
> It has nothing to do with "pride" in their product... but the fact of the costs involved... and the "lack of faith" they have in customers...
> 
> The "model" they are using is no different then other industries...
> Aka... the wireless phone model...
> 
> People want equipment at little to no cost, when that equipment is expensive.
> 
> Honestly... IMHO... I think DirecTV should simply offer the units, for their full price... like the phone companies do...
> 
> So those that don't want to commit to the term.... (So DirecTV and re-coop the cost of the unit).... they can allow it.
> 
> And it would very intresting to see how many people spend the $500ish for each unit, to avoid the contracts...
> 
> Also... I agree... they should give you the opportunity to try it.
> So allow you to pay for the box and install upfront....
> And then if you are "happy" with it... credit you down to the prices.


I've read several times that DirecTV has about $400 in the HR20 and they say they will have that down to $300, so I question why they have to have such a ridiculous purchase price on the unit. I've also read that Tivo is doing very little subsidizing of their new new Tivo HD unit. If fact, Tivo has said, they have switched from subsidizing the box to advertising. My guess is that the bean counters at DirecTV are adding way too much overhead to charge so much for their box. So, DirecTV will have millions more of these units compared to Tivo, but yet they charge 2 1/2 times what Tivo charges.


----------



## HiDefGator

RS4 said:


> I've read several times that DirecTV has about $400 in the HR20 and they say they will have that down to $300, so I question why they have to have such a ridiculous purchase price on the unit. I've also read that Tivo is doing very little subsidizing of their new new Tivo HD unit. If fact, Tivo has said, they have switched from subsidizing the box to advertising. My guess is that the bean counters at DirecTV are adding way too much overhead to charge so much for their box. So, DirecTV will have millions more of these units compared to Tivo, but yet they charge 2 1/2 times what Tivo charges.


Who actually pays $299 for it? I have three that I paid an average of $40 a piece for. They threw in a free Dish too.


----------



## Cudahy

The real question is whether the common sense greed of both Directv and Tivo can find an agreement. A number of reasons have been listed for why it would be in their common interest to do so. If an agreement is reached it'll be after Malone takes over. The last news item I've seen mentioned August-September. Now we're well into October. It's gotta happen pretty soon.


----------



## jimb726

RS4 said:


> I've read several times that DirecTV has about $400 in the HR20 and they say they will have that down to $300, so I question why they have to have such a ridiculous purchase price on the unit. I've also read that Tivo is doing very little subsidizing of their new new Tivo HD unit. If fact, Tivo has said, they have switched from subsidizing the box to advertising. My guess is that the bean counters at DirecTV are adding way too much overhead to charge so much for their box. So, DirecTV will have millions more of these units compared to Tivo, but yet they charge 2 1/2 times what Tivo charges.


Because they dont want people to buy it outright would be my guess. If they buy it and there are problems out of warranty then it becomes a PR nightmare. If its a lease and out of warranty, you pay the shipping (assuming that the 90 day warranty has expired) and you get a replacement unit. Yes I know it renews the commitment, but thats the risk you take without the performance plan. If you ask a very high outright purchase price it has to be assumed that the buyer realizes that he is buying the equipment and not leasing it. And as the other poster said, I would guess that very few people are paying 299 for their boxes. It would be interesting, although I am sure they would never release, to know what the price breakdown of boxes in service is. How many paid full boat, down to free.


----------



## Sir_winealot

HiDefGator said:


> They threw in a free Dish too.


Wow, that was nice of them. Are we talking a nice pork chop casserole here?


----------



## hauntedsoul

Why dont DTV just buy TIVO. They got the cash


----------



## BlackBetty

hauntedsoul said:


> Why dont DTV just buy TIVO. They got the cash


Why doesn't it rain chocolate milk?


----------



## milominderbinder

hauntedsoul said:


> Why dont DTV just buy TIVO. They got the cash


18 months ago DIRECTV was faced with the decision of in some way acquiring the TiVo software or instead licensing out the patent portfolio.

They chose to license out the portfolio through 2010 with options to extend.

At this point, why buy the cow when you already leased the milk?

- Craig


----------



## BlackBetty

lease the milk.


----------



## samo

hauntedsoul said:


> Why dont DTV just buy TIVO. They got the cash


Why would anybody in their mind buy any business that lost near billion $$ in last 8 years and keeps losing money every day with no prospects to make money any time soon?


----------



## Sir_winealot

samo said:


> Why would anybody in their mind buy any business that lost near billion $$ in last 8 years and keeps losing money every day with no prospects to make money any time soon?


I dunno ...why? ......Or was that a rhetorical question?

Cuz they could get a good deal? 
Cuz they need the write off? 
Cuz they might know more about the financial prospects than you (or the general public) and could take it over while making it profitable for themselves in the long run?

I really have no idea, and other than what you read ...nor does anyone else.


----------



## milominderbinder

BlackBetty said:


> lease the milk.


OK, here it is corrected:

18 months ago DIRECTV was faced with the decision of in some way acquiring the TiVo software or instead licensing out the patent portfolio.

They chose to license out the portfolio through 2010 with options to extend.

At this point, why buy the cow when you already *leased * the milk?

- Craig


----------



## hauntedsoul

Because I want ALL THE MILK for myself. And I want the flippin cow 2.....................also where is that squirrel?


----------



## BlackBetty

The ice is thawing!



> Rogers, a former NBC Cable president, said its *relationship with top U.S. satellite television services operator DirecTV Group Inc had "thawed" a bit* and it had recently asked for feature improvements for existing TiVo customers at DirecTV.
> 
> DirecTV had stopped offering new TiVo set top boxes in recent years after News Corp took control of the satellite company. News Corp. began supplying boxes made by its own NDS Group.
> 
> But John Malone's Liberty Media Corp is now set to take control of the company this year.


Global warming when John Malone takes control of D*. Someone who has ZERO interest in the company that makes current non tivo D* boxes.


----------



## SullyND

BlackBetty said:


> Someone who has ZERO interest in the company that makes current non tivo D* boxes.


I hope so, but it should be noted that the HR20 is not an NDS device.


----------



## fasTLane

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Digital video recorder company TiVo Inc said on Tuesday the roll-out of its services is a "little behind" schedule.

TiVo is making its technology and services available to Comcast Corp cable customers. The service, built into Scientific Atlanta cable set top boxes, is currently being tested by Comcast employees and was expected to be available to some customers by September.

"We're waiting for word any time now that the first non-Comcast employee will begin to get the service," TiVo Chief Executive Tom Rogers said at the Natixis Bleichroder conference.


----------



## bonscott87

Uhhh, nothing new there. We knew that a couple months ago, Tivo is working on an update for the DirecTivo's early next year.


----------



## BlackBetty

fasTLane said:


> NEW YORK (Reuters) - Digital video recorder company TiVo Inc said on Tuesday the roll-out of its services is a "little behind" schedule.
> 
> TiVo is making its technology and services available to Comcast Corp cable customers. The service, built into Scientific Atlanta cable set top boxes, is currently being tested by Comcast employees and was expected to be available to some customers by September.
> 
> "We're waiting for word any time now that the first non-Comcast employee will begin to get the service," TiVo Chief Executive Tom Rogers said at the Natixis Bleichroder conference.
> 
> Rogers, a former NBC Cable president, said its relationship with top U.S. satellite television services operator DirecTV Group Inc had "thawed" a bit and it had recently asked for feature improvements for existing TiVo customers at DirecTV.
> 
> DirecTV had stopped offering new TiVo set top boxes in recent years after News Corp took control of the satellite company. News Corp. began supplying boxes made by its own NDS Group.
> 
> But John Malone's Liberty Media Corp is now set to take control of the company this year.


is it really that hard to scroll up 2 posts to see that this was already posted?


----------



## sjberra

fasTLane said:


> NEW YORK (Reuters) - Digital video recorder company TiVo Inc said on Tuesday the roll-out of its services is a "little behind" schedule.
> 
> TiVo is making its technology and services available to Comcast Corp cable customers. The service, built into Scientific Atlanta cable set top boxes, is currently being tested by Comcast employees and was expected to be available to some customers by September.
> 
> "We're waiting for word any time now that the first non-Comcast employee will begin to get the service," TiVo Chief Executive Tom Rogers said at the Natixis Bleichroder conference.


what year?


----------



## ebonovic

Sorry... this isn't really a "jab" at TiVo.... but...

a "little behind"... the announcement was almost 3 YEARS ago, that this was going to come...

Through out 2007, we have heard multiple dates.... all of them have been missed...

So calling it a "little behind"... maybe behind their latest date they wanted to hit......


----------



## 20TIL6

Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines here, but the two statements by Rogers indicate some amount of frustration with Comcast, and maybe some defiance.

I'm not sure about the context, but together they sound like:

_TiVo has done its part on the Comcast port. Any delays are entirely because of Comcast and we are waiting for them to roll it out beyond their own employees. Rogers sounds a bit irritated.

And, while we are waiting on Comcast to get off the pot, our ex-girlfriend just called and asked to have lunch sometime._

It kind of has that tone to me.


----------



## sluciani

20TIL6 said:


> Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines here, but the two statements by Rogers indicate some amount of frustration with Comcast, and maybe some defiance.
> 
> I'm not sure about the context, but together they sound like:
> 
> _TiVo has done its part on the Comcast port. Any delays are entirely because of Comcast and we are waiting for them to roll it out beyond their own employees. Rogers sounds a bit irritated.
> 
> And, while we are waiting on Comcast to get off the pot, our ex-girlfriend just called and asked to have lunch sometime._
> 
> It kind of has that tone to me.


Well analyzed! I believe you're right on.

And regarding the call from the last girlfriend, TiVo's contract with D* requires them to continue support and software maintenance for the HR10 through 2010, so it's not news that they continue to talk. D* is still a paying customer. /steve


----------



## RS4

sluciani said:


> Well analyzed! I believe you're right on.
> 
> And regarding the call from the last girlfriend, TiVo's contract with D* requires them to continue support and software maintenance for the HR10 through 2010, so it's not news that they continue to talk. D* is still a paying customer. /steve


You may be right, but D* is certainly sending out mixed signals to it's cutomers - on the one hand, they are saying 'nothing in the future with Tivo - our boxes or else', and on the other hand they are sending out emails, phone calls, and messages on my Tivo telling me not only are they coming out with some upgrade (which they have never announced in such fashion before), but they are also exploring other opportunites with Tivo.  I wonder why they are stirring up the pot if they don't have something brewing?


----------



## HiDefGator

SullyND said:


> I hope so, but it should be noted that the HR20 is not an NDS device.


Because Directv has moved all its dvr work in house, if Malone went back to Tivo it would be like taking money away from Directv and giving it to Tivo. That may not be a popular strategy with other Directv shareholders.


----------



## RS4

HiDefGator said:


> Because Directv has moved all its dvr work in house, if Malone went back to Tivo it would be like taking money away from Directv and giving it to Tivo. That may not be a popular strategy with other Directv shareholders.


You could also look at it the other way. It might bring more money in to DirecTV as the Tivo becomes more popular with the cable crowd and then they find out DirecTV doesn't allow it.


----------



## SullyND

HiDefGator said:


> Because Directv has moved all its dvr work in house, if Malone went back to Tivo it would be like taking money away from Directv and giving it to Tivo. That may not be a popular strategy with other Directv shareholders.


If he went back with TiVo exclusively.

Think ComcasTiVo. If the TiVo OS can be "sold" as an upgrade it could bring more money in to DirecTV than the non-TiVo units.


----------



## milominderbinder

fasTLane said:


> NEW YORK (Reuters) - Digital video recorder company TiVo Inc said on Tuesday the roll-out of its services is a "*little behind*" schedule.


I did a search trying to find the article and got this link:

Hope for TiVo (CNN: 03/15/05)

"_Comcast said that a TiVo product for its customers would not be available until mid- to late 2006. _"

- Craig


----------



## TyroneShoes

HiDefGator said:


> Because Directv has moved all its dvr work in house, if Malone went back to Tivo it would be like taking money away from Directv and giving it to Tivo. That may not be a popular strategy with other Directv shareholders.


When a company changes hands, the agreements are very complex, as we all probably know. It is very likely that Rupert protected his DVRs which he would still profit from after he sells, as they would remain under his umbrella. IOW, there may be a clause in there that they have to keep the Rupert-blessed DVR for some time, and not allow Tivo or anyone else to make any agreement with DTV that would compete with that. If so, nothing changes on that front, regardless who's eventually in charge.

But this and everything else here is all speculation. Nobody's talking that knows anything. What's interesting to me is how alive this thread is when there is really nothing here but rumors and guesswork (and the occasional flame war )


----------



## bonscott87

TyroneShoes said:


> When a company changes hands, the agreements are very complex, as we all probably know. It is very likely that Rupert protected his DVRs which he would still profit from after he sells, as they would remain under his umbrella. IOW, there may be a clause in there that they have to keep the Rupert-blessed DVR for some time, and not allow Tivo or anyone else to make any agreement with DTV that would compete with that. If so, nothing changes on that front, regardless who's eventually in charge.
> 
> But this and everything else here is all speculation. Nobody's talking that knows anything. What's interesting to me is how alive this thread is when there is really nothing here but rumors and guesswork (and the occasional flame war )


You got it.

And a key thing to remember is that the R15 is the *only* receiver based on Rupert's NDS. All others including the HR20 have nothing to do with Rupert or NDS. So Rupert leaving will have virtually no impact on the DVR lines other then maybe a higher price for NDS support on the R15 when that contract is up since they probably won't want to cut as good a deal.

Hey, anything can happen. Malone/Liberty may love Tivo to death. But he's also a business man and DirecTV would stand to lose a lot of money if they came to a screeching halt all the inertia they have build up around the HR20/21 platform. They have said as much in presentations to Liberty on the matter. Especially if Malone plans to turn DirecTV right around and sell it again (a solid rumor) then he certainly isn't going to make any kind of sweeping changes. "Keep doing what you're doing" will be the mantra until he can sell it again.

One must also keep in mind that Liberty and Malone will only own about 30-35% of DirecTV. It's not like he can just march in and make wholesale changes without a lot of lobbying with the other owners. These things take time and major direction changes are on the scale of years. Heck, the change away from Tivo in the first place took 3-4 years to complete and it's still not completely done.


----------



## Cudahy

Allowing Tivo to offer a higher priced alternative to the HR20 doesn't interfere in any way with what Directv is doing. If Malone IS open to a little more on the side Tivo probably already knows about it. There's more than one option. It could be a standalone Tivo that accesess Directv.


----------



## RS4

bonscott87 said:


> ....
> Heck, the change away from Tivo in the first place took 3-4 years to complete and it's still not completely done.


In fact I'm sure many of the HR20 users will say it ain't nowhere close to being done - another 3 or 4 years!!


----------



## RS4

Cudahy said:


> Allowing Tivo to offer a higher priced alternative to the HR20 doesn't interfere in any way with what Directv is doing. If Malone IS open to a little more on the side Tivo probably already knows about it. There's more than one option. It could be a standalone Tivo that accesess Directv.


In fact they would probably make a ton of money, because a lot of folks want to use the best and might decide to ditch the HR20, even if the HR10-251 mpeg4 is more expensive.

Hmmm...I wonder what D* will do with all of those boat anchors...err HR20's - "That's ok, mr customer, you can keep it... heck we won't even charge you to keep it active, because we know it won't stay going for long"


----------



## sjberra

RS4 said:


> In fact they would probably make a ton of money, because a lot of folks want to use the best and might decide to ditch the HR20, even if the HR10-251 mpeg4 is more expensive.
> 
> Hmmm...I wonder what D* will do with all of those boat anchors...err HR20's - "That's ok, mr customer, you can keep it... heck we won't even charge you to keep it active, because we know it won't stay going for long"


Again "best" is a matter of opinion - the "best" thing that happened to one of the HR10's that I had was that it was replaced with a HR20-100.


----------



## HiDefGator

Even if Directv offered to let Tivo make a standalone that would work with DTV, why would I pay Tivo $300+ for it when I can get the HR20 almost for free? I don't think Tivo would try to compete with free.


----------



## rminsk

HiDefGator said:


> Even if Directv offered to let Tivo make a standalone that would work with DTV, why would I pay Tivo $300+ for it when I can get the HR20 almost for free? I don't think Tivo would try to compete with free.


To reliably record programs...


----------



## SullyND

HiDefGator said:


> Even if Directv offered to let Tivo make a standalone that would work with DTV, why would I pay Tivo $300+ for it when I can get the HR20 almost for free? I don't think Tivo would try to compete with free.


The only way a new TiVo makes sense is as an alternate OS for the HR-20. Comcast will offer TiVo as an upgrade on their existing hardware. I would gladly pay 2x my DVR fee for all my DVRs to be TiVo.


----------



## TyroneShoes

bonscott87 said:


> You got it.
> 
> And a key thing to remember is that the R15 is the *only* receiver based on Rupert's NDS. All others including the HR20 have nothing to do with Rupert or NDS. So Rupert leaving will have virtually no impact on the DVR lines...


But whether the HR20-xxx is NDS or not is beside the point. The point is that its NOT Tivo, and it means that for every sub that scuttles his HR10 for a HR20, DTV doesn't have to pay $1.25 a month, every month, to Tivo, as they do now. The HR20 is still under Rupert's umbrella as part of hoizontal synergy within News Corp, and something they have great vested interest in, both monetarily and psychologically, and it therefore might be protected from competition in the terms of the sale. So Rupert may indeed have quite a lot of impact on what DVRs come from DTV for some time, or which might be precluded. The entire point of getting rid of Tivo and going to something else was only to get that lousy taste out of their mouths every time they have to pony up the $1.25.

But, just because DTV found the terms of that agreement eventually inedible (seemed as if they must have thought it was a good idea at the time, originally), doesn't mean that Tivo and DTV couldn't forge a new agreement. Even if they still needed to pay Tivo $1.25, which is unlikely, they could recoup that as part of a high-end gourmet package, that most high-dollar customers that are also Tivo lovers would be glad to pay a couple bucks more for.


----------



## brick33308

TyroneShoes said:


> there are a great number of Tivo owners who are, shall we say, greatly underwhelmed by the HR20 . . . I knew pretty early on that it was exceptionally user-hostile compared even to DISH PVRs. Up against Tivo it was no contest


I don't get the user-hostile" comment and would like to hear examples of why you feel that way. I've had the HR20 for about 3 weeks, and my experience has been completely the opposite. Examples:

1. Search function on HR20 is as easy to use as Tivo, and I like the fact that it saves searches which Tivo doesn't.

2. While doing any searches or deleting items in the playlist, whatever you were watching before doing that maintenance (whether live or recorded tv) keeps playing in a small box in the upper right hand corner of the screen which Tivo doesn't. That's especially nice when watching live TV - you don't miss anything.

3. Zipping through commercials is faster than Tivo.

4. So far, I haven't had any shows that didn't record as planned.

5. Adding an external hard drive couldn't have been easier. I simply connected a 750 gig drive with an eSATA cable, powered back up, and presto, I increased my recording capacity to about 120 hours of HD content. I heard Tivo can do this too, but it was nice to see that it worked so well and easily on the HR20.

6. The HR20 has a "back" button which works like the "back" button on an internet browser. It will cycle backwards through whatever things you were doing before pushing the button. I find this pretty handy.

I've read one of the big criticisms of the HR20 is that it doesn't have dual live buffers like the Tivo, however, this is a feature I never used on my non-HD Tivo, so I'm not bothered by not having it on the HR20.

In short, I'm very happy with the HR20, especially because I fretted about giving up my beloved Tivo. It records all of DirecTV HD content beautifully and does everyting I want a recorder to do. Switching over and learning the ins and outs of the HR20 was fairly easy, especially because I found on the DBS forums a "survival guide" for former Tivo owners now using the HR20.

If tomorrow DirecTV partnered with Tivo on a HD recorder that could record all the DirecTV HD channels, I wouldn't spend the money to switch. And frankly, if they offered to switch me for free to such a Tivo, I wouldn't take it.

This is just my own experience and I realize others don't like the HR20 - I just don't understand why the rabid dislike for the HR20 which for me has been a fine replacement for Tivo.


----------



## sjberra

rminsk said:


> To reliably record programs...


have the same level of reliablity to record programs with the HR20 that I had with the HR10.


----------



## sluciani

RS4 said:


> and on the other hand they are sending out emails, phone calls, and messages on my Tivo telling me not only are they coming out with some upgrade (which they have never announced in such fashion before), but they are also exploring other opportunites with Tivo.


Where did D* say they are exploring other opportunites with TiVo?

Not a facetious question. If I missed this announcement, I would like to know more about it. /steve


----------



## Cudahy

If $1.25 a month is all that's keeping Tivo and Directv apart, it's a no brainer.
Their research should tell them how much more a month a large number of Tivo owners wouldl be willing to pay to get an HDtivo. My guess is it'll be around 3 to 4 dollars. 

Directv's own site mentioned that they are exploring ways to improve relations with Tivo.


----------



## RS4

sluciani said:


> Where did D* say they are exploring other opportunites with TiVo?
> 
> Not a facetious question. If I missed this announcement, I would like to know more about it. /steve


As I mentioned, I've seen it on my Tivos, gotten an automated phone call, and received an email. There is also a news release from DirecTV Tivo release

*...Launching in early 2008, the new software download will provide these customers with DVR enhancements offered with the TiVo service, including a Recently Deleted Folder and Overlap Protection(TM), as well as DIRECTV's Remote Booking feature. In addition, DIRECTV and TiVo will continue to explore ways to bring future enhancements to DIRECTV customers with TiVo receivers.

"It is important to us that our customers with TiVo service also have access to the latest DVR technology and we look forward to exploring additional opportunities with TiVo," said Derek Chang, executive vice president, Content Strategy and Development for DIRECTV, Inc.

"DIRECTV's launch of these additional features underscores the uniqueness of TiVo's DVR service," said Naveen Chopra, vice president, Corporate Development and Strategy for TiVo. ...*

The above is part of the announcement from the web site. The statement by Derek Chang talks about other possibilities. I think the significant thing about the statement is that it also contains a statement from a Tivo exec. Clearly both companies are authorizing this joint statement.

In Tivo's last investment call they were asked about the activities. They neither confirmed nor denied anything. In fact, he said the statement has been made by DirecTV. I'm wondering if they have signed a NDA, so neither company can say anything at the moment.


----------



## Sir_winealot

sjberra said:


> have the same level of reliablity to record programs with the HR20 that I had with the HR10.


I only wish that were the case in our household, as the HR20 still has to be continuously babysat.


----------



## sjberra

Sir_winealot said:


> I only wish that were the case in our household, as the HR20 still has to be continuously babysat.


For me it was the exact opposite, one of the fabled hr-10's got me so frustrated it went one on one with Mr Remington for personal satisfaction, and the other one is sitting in the kid's play room, which now that cartoon network is MPEG4, and acouple of disney and nik channels are due out soon, it will be relegated to the garage or the attic. Guess it all luck of the draw, although I am enjoying the new MPEG 4 channels on the unit.


----------



## sjberra

RS4 said:


> As I mentioned, I've seen it on my Tivos, gotten an automated phone call, and received an email. There is also a news release from DirecTV Tivo release
> 
> *...Launching in early 2008, the new software download will provide these customers with DVR enhancements offered with the TiVo service, including a Recently Deleted Folder and Overlap Protection(TM), as well as DIRECTV's Remote Booking feature. In addition, DIRECTV and TiVo will continue to explore ways to bring future enhancements to DIRECTV customers with TiVo receivers.
> 
> "It is important to us that our customers with TiVo service also have access to the latest DVR technology and we look forward to exploring additional opportunities with TiVo," said Derek Chang, executive vice president, Content Strategy and Development for DIRECTV, Inc.
> 
> "DIRECTV's launch of these additional features underscores the uniqueness of TiVo's DVR service," said Naveen Chopra, vice president, Corporate Development and Strategy for TiVo. ...*
> 
> The above is part of the announcement from the web site. The statement by Derek Chang talks about other possibilities. I think the significant thing about the statement is that it also contains a statement from a Tivo exec. Clearly both companies are authorizing this joint statement.
> 
> In Tivo's last investment call they were asked about the activities. They neither confirmed nor denied anything. In fact, he said the statement has been made by DirecTV. I'm wondering if they have signed a NDA, so neither company can say anything at the moment.


missed something in that quote..

"will develop a software upgrade to enhance the user experience for DIRECTV customers who have DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo(R) service built on the *Series2(TM)* platform."


----------



## Budget_HT

sjberra said:


> missed something in that quote..
> 
> "will develop a software upgrade to enhance the user experience for DIRECTV customers who have DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo(R) service built on the *Series2(TM)* platform."


... which, AIUI, excludes series 1 units like my Sony SAT-T60 (purchased in 1999) but includes my HDVR2 and two HR10-250's.

Maybe I missed your point?


----------



## Sir_winealot

We've finally just decided to unhook the HR20, and it's heading for a closet shelf. Although the new HD channels are decent, nobody in the family uses the thing anymore (except me) and since ...ONCE AGAIN... it missed recording Survivor, I've had it.

Our HR10's will be utilized until D* fixes this friggin box (it's been out over a year, how much more time do they need!).


----------



## sjberra

Budget_HT said:


> ... which, AIUI, excludes series 1 units like my Sony SAT-T60 (purchased in 1999) but includes my HDVR2 and two HR10-250's.
> 
> Maybe I missed your point?


No you did not, he excluded the part of the quote that stated it was for the series 2 units only, so your units arte not getting any upgrade


----------



## milominderbinder

sjberra said:


> missed something in that quote..
> 
> "will develop a software upgrade to enhance the user experience for DIRECTV customers who have DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo(R) service built on the *Series2(TM)* platform."


Wow.

Why would anyone doctor an online quote? How could someone think no one would catch them at it.

Oh well. Something to remember for the future.

- Craig


----------



## fasTLane

Check for yourself...

http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=257482


----------



## sluciani

milominderbinder said:


> Wow.
> 
> Why would anyone doctor an online quote? How could someone think no one would catch them at it.
> 
> Oh well. Something to remember for the future.
> 
> - Craig


It was a case of carefully selected editing. Like a studio ad for a movie finding "great "quotes in an otherwise lousy movie review.  /steve


----------



## RS4

sluciani said:


> It was a case of carefully selected editing. Like a studio ad for a movie finding "great "quotes in an otherwise lousy movie review.  /steve


You guys are all a piece of work 

The original question from sluciani was:


> *Where did D* say they are exploring other opportunites with TiVo?
> 
> Not a facetious question. If I missed this announcement, I would like to know more about it. /steve*


I pointed to the original link and the only editing (which was clearly marked with the ...) was to select the section that specifically addressed the question regarding exploring other opportunities!! There was no change of that quote!! There was no changing of words and/or context!! 

sheesh


----------



## sluciani

RS4 said:


> You guys are all a piece of work
> 
> The original question from sluciani was:
> 
> I pointed to the original link and the only editing (which was clearly marked with the ...) was to select the section that specifically addressed the question regarding exploring other opportunities!! There was no change of that quote!! There was no changing of words and/or context!!
> 
> sheesh


No change in context? 

Ongoing development for the Series 2 platform is too key part of that statement to leave out, IMO. With that added, the part of the statement you did quote could also be interpreted as "TiVo is still under contract to provide services to D* through 2010, and we (D*) expect to get something back for the money we're paying them".

It's just unfortunate that as the D* transmission system continues to transition to MPEG-4, further development on an D* MPEG-2 box is not unlike buying new deck chairs for the Titanic. Now if the statement said they were working on a new box... that would be a different story. Just my .02. /steve


----------



## HiDefGator

sluciani said:


> It's just unfortunate that as the D* transmission system continues to transition to MPEG-4, further development on an D* MPEG-2 box is not unlike buying new deck chairs for the Titanic. Now if the statement said they were working on a new box... that would be a different story. Just my .02. /steve


well there are roughly 2.5 million of those deck chairs still in use. If they can keep some of them in use longer with a few new features then they can save a lot of money in the long run.


----------



## Budget_HT

sjberra said:


> No you did not, he excluded the part of the quote that stated it was for the series 2 units only, so your units arte not getting any upgrade


Three of my units are series 2 (HDVR2 and HR10-250's) and should get the upgrade, yes?

The Sony SAT-T60 is a series 1 and will not be upgraded.


----------



## milominderbinder

HiDefGator said:


> well there are roughly 2.5 million of those deck chairs still in use. If they can keep some of them in use longer with a few new features then they can save a lot of money in the long run.


At the peak 18 months ago there were 200k DIRECTV MPEG2 HD TiVo boxes in the field. The other 2.2 million DIRECTV TiVo's are SD.

The 150k should still be able to get SD and OTA even after next August.

Here is the key quote from the TiVo - DIRECTV contract announcement 3/16/06:

TiVo Contract/Patent Licenses Extended Through 2010 
 _TiVo (TIVO) announced yesterday that they have extended their agreement with DirecTV Group (DTV) for three years. In addition to this, both parties have agreed to not assert patent rights against each other. The previous agreement was due to expire in 2007. _

DIRECTV has a license to the whole TiVo patent portfolio. Why buy the cow when you already have licensed all of the milk.

- Craig


----------



## BlackBetty

milominderbinder said:


>  _TiVo (TIVO) announced yesterday that they have extended their agreement with DirecTV Group (DTV) for three years. In addition to this, both parties have agreed to not assert patent rights against each other. The previous agreement was due to expire in 2007. _
> 
> DIRECTV has a license to the whole TiVo patent portfolio. Why buy the cow when you already have licensed all of the milk.
> 
> - Craig


If TiVo wins the appeal against E*, the year 2010 will not get here soon enough.


----------



## sjberra

Budget_HT said:


> Three of my units are series 2 (HDVR2 and HR10-250's) and should get the upgrade, yes?
> 
> The Sony SAT-T60 is a series 1 and will not be upgraded.


There was a long discussion on this here when it was first released, believe the concensus was that the HR10 will recieve these upgrades, but that they would probalby be the last to recieve them - and the upgrade would not allow them to recieve the new channels.


----------



## milominderbinder

milominderbinder said:


> Originally Posted by milominderbinder
>  TiVo (TIVO) announced yesterday that they have extended their agreement with DirecTV Group (DTV) for three years. In addition to this, both parties have agreed to not assert patent rights against each other. The previous agreement was due to expire in 2007.
> 
> DIRECTV has a license to the whole TiVo patent portfolio. Why buy the cow when you already have licensed all of the milk.
> 
> - Craig





BlackBetty said:


> If TiVo wins the appeal against E*, the year 2010 will not get here soon enough.


DISH did not license the TiVo patents and is being sued by TiVo.

DIRECTV licensed the entire TiVo portfolio for development through 2010.

How does the DISH lawsuit impact DIRECTV's licensing of the patents?

TiVo Wins DISH Lawsuit
If TiVo wins it's lawsuit against DISH, DIRECTV would want to renew it's contract in 3 years to keep using the patents.

TiVo Loses DISH Lawsuit
If TiVo loses it's lawsuit with TiVo, DIRECTV may not need to renew the contract.

See the rest of the article for what Seeking Alpha was saying the impact of the contract was for TiVo.

Here is a new article on TiVo from this week:

Did the Comcast TiVo Really Launch This Week?

- Craig


----------



## bonscott87

The newest HD DVR from DirecTV has been announced and is available for preorder. It's the HR21-700. It is also not Tivo based.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=105066


----------



## 94SupraTT

bonscott87 said:


> The newest HD DVR from DirecTV has been announced and is available for preorder. It's the HR21-700. It is also not Tivo based.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=105066


And still no DLB.


----------



## HiDefGator

BlackBetty said:


> If TiVo wins the appeal against E*, the year 2010 will not get here soon enough.


What is it you imagine will happen in 2010? Directv's patent deal goes forever. Only the contract went for three years. Do you really think DTV would invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a dvr that wouldn't have patent protection after 2010?


----------



## milominderbinder

HiDefGator said:


> What is it you imagine will happen in 2010? Directv's patent deal goes forever. Only the contract went for three years. Do you really think DTV would invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a dvr that wouldn't have patent protection after 2010?


The 03/16/06 press releases from both companies state that DIRECTV will pay the $1 per month TiVo fees to TiVO through 2010, now about $30 million a year.

In addition to this, both parties have agreed to not assert patent rights against each other.

So DVR's or features for DVR's added after 2010 would not be covered under the agreement.

Starting in *2011*, DIRECTV and TiVo will have to decide how to proceed with future contracts and development of future DVR's.

- Craig


----------



## bonscott87

94SupraTT said:


> And still no DLB.


It's basically an HR20 with a faster cpu and no OTA. So yea, no DLB.

The bigger thing for this thread is that it's not Tivo based. DirecTV is spending millions and millions and even rolling out new DVR models that aren't Tivo based. To think they will do an about face just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


----------



## HiDefGator

milominderbinder said:


> Starting in *2011*, DIRECTV and TiVo will have to decide how to proceed with future contracts and development of future DVR's.
> 
> - Craig


Exactly. But only for future DVr's they manufacture, if they design them in such a way as to infringe the Tivo patent. Any of the millions they are currently churning out are grandfathered in for life. By then Directv will have a stack of their own DVR patents and they will offer to do a trade with Tivo for no money. Business as usual.


----------



## skittish

bonscott87 said:


> DirecTV is spending millions and millions and even rolling out new DVR models that aren't Tivo based.


I wonder why DirecTV made this investment decision in the first place. Maybe they were concerned that TiVo might not survive much longer, and such an investment would be a good hedge against TiVo's unprofitable times and uncertain future. However, it's not like DirecTV will ever be able to out-TiVo the TiVo with a better product -- and the reviews clearly confirm this.

In my case I still have a standard def dtivo and have held off on getting HD. There isn't any absolute must-watch HD content that I feel I'm missing out on. Yeah, content is king, but where on DirecTV is the king-worthy HD content? Watching Dog Whisperer on NGC HD??? American Chopper on TLC HD???

When Fios is installed in my area, then I'll probably replace DTV with FiosTV get an S3 tivo with cable cards.


----------



## bonscott87

skittish said:


> However, it's not like DirecTV will ever be able to out-TiVo the TiVo with a better product -- and the reviews clearly confirm this.


They don't have to at the end of the day. They simply need to make something that is "good enough" for the millions and millions that have never had a Tivo or don't care and just use whatever DVR is given to them.



> Yeah, content is king, but where on DirecTV is the king-worthy HD content? Watching Dog Whisperer on NGC HD??? American Chopper on TLC HD???


Just depedns on your content. With the new HD channels added so far I've been able to convert over a dozen season passes to HD. And that doesn't count all the "network" HD and HD sports. HD content is indeed king and now in my household 98% of everything we watch is in HD. Good times indeed.

But then again we've had HD for 5 years now. HD has been #1 in this home for a long, long time.


----------



## BlackBetty

skittish said:


> I wonder why DirecTV made this investment decision in the first place.


its a no brainer. The CEO of D* had a stake in the NDS group which makes DVR's. He was just lining his pockets and making them deeper. He didn't care if TiVo had a more enjoyable user interface, he just cared about how he could profit more.

I hope the new majority owners (liberty group) see TiVo in a different light, and also don't have ties to NDS group.


----------



## sjberra

BlackBetty said:


> its a no brainer. The CEO of D* had a stake in the NDS group which makes DVR's. He was just lining his pockets and making them deeper. He didn't care if TiVo had a more enjoyable user interface, he just cared about how he could profit more.
> 
> I hope the new majority owners (liberty group) see TiVo in a different light, and also don't have ties to NDS group.


Curious comment since only the R15 is NDS and neither the HR20 or the just recently released HR21 is


----------



## Mark Lopez

Sir_winealot said:


> Our HR10's will be utilized until D* fixes this friggin box (it's been out over a year, how much more time do they need!).


  Well, seeing how long the HR10 has been around (and Tivo itself) and the bugs and lack of features it *still* has, I don't think you have anything to be complaining about about.


----------



## bonscott87

sjberra said:


> Curious comment since only the R15 is NDS and neither the HR20 or the just recently released HR21 is


Exactly. NDS didn't really work out for DirecTV and they dumped them for the HR20/HR21 models and did it themselves. And all under "Murdochs watch". I see the NDS FUD thrown around so much. DirecTV could have easily went back to Tivo a couple years ago after they dumped NDS but they didn't for whatever reason.


----------



## Sir_winealot

Mark Lopez said:


> Well, seeing how long the HR10 has been around (and Tivo itself) and the bugs and lack of features it *still* has, I don't think you have anything to be complaining about about.


 Your opinion means so much to me, I appreciate your input.

Other than attempting to incite more arguing, what exactly was the point of posting such a comment? What did it add to the conversation?

You obviously take offense to my posting my personal experience with the HR20 ...and you've made clear your feeling of disdain for what you call "TiVo zealots," so why exactly are you here?


----------



## MichaelK

Theres various theorys on the net why tivo and directv parted ways.

A few Ive read:
1) Directv wanted to have more control over the user, like the ability to force viewing of certain commercials if the advertiser paid more. Tivo refused so directv went their own way.
2) The numbers, although tiny per box (at less than a buck a box), still add up to staggering numbers when you see how many people take a DVR, and to compete with cables 2 way abilities they will need to get an even higher percentage of dvrs out there. So quickly it becomes like 100 million a year. So why wouldnt directv try to save themselves that money if they think they can do a good enough job to keep most people. And from the sound of this thread many think the directv flavor is good enough and some even think its better.
3) Even assuming one doesnt think directv can do a good enough job and nothing compares to tivo that makes a problem. Directvs customers at that point are more wed to tivo then to directv. So tivo has some huge power. What happens when you get 50%+ of your subs with tivo and then tivo says they want 5 bucks a box or we go to Comcast and advertise to everyone that you should get cable instead of Directv? It might make sense then to kick tivo to the curb ASAP and attempt to cripple them so in the long term they can never get the upper hand over you.

Could be any combination of the 3 or probably bits of those 3 and another handful of things that when taken together just made sense to the people in charge to ditch tivo.


----------



## bonscott87

I think it's a combo of all three plus some other stuff we obviously don't know about. I remember reading a few years ago that DirecTV was a bit nervous over having people loyal to Tivo first and then DirecTV. As you say, that puts them in a vulnerable position. Before the DVR explosion is the time to nip that in the bud so that your customers are loyal to you and your programming first and that is what they did.

There has been no vast migration of customers away from DirecTV over the past couple years due to no Tivo so their strategy has obviously worked. Subs keep going up, churn is down and now more people have their own home grown DVR then Tivo. They have no need to go back to Tivo to save a few thousand people that are loyal to Tivo first. There is nothing wrong with someone being loyal to Tivo first, but to DirecTV that sub isn't as valuable as a sub loyal to DirecTV first.


----------



## Cudahy

I asume their research has told them how many of the SD & HD tivo customers might be lost if they don't offer them an option as they go to HD. Even if it's only a couple hundred thousand(out of 2 1/2 million?) it's obviously in the mutual interest of both to reach an agreement. We're still talking millions of dollars. 
Haven't seen a word on Malone taking over(it was supposed to happen in August-September). The only indication is a couple of top Directv execs quitting.


----------



## MichaelK

Cudahy said:


> I asume their research has told them how many of the SD & HD tivo customers might be lost if they don't offer them an option as they go to HD. Even if it's only a couple hundred thousand(out of 2 1/2 million?) it's obviously in the mutual interest of both to reach an agreement. We're still talking millions of dollars.
> Haven't seen a word on Malone taking over(it was supposed to happen in August-September). The only indication is a couple of top Directv execs quitting.


so it's a couple hundred thousand. Tivo doesn't likely give them updates for free anymore. So there's a cost to directv to get an upgrade. For Directv the math is simple- if the cost for the upgrade costs more then their subscirber acquistion cost of the amount of subs they will lose then you let the tivo folks leave. I think their sac is like 600 a sub? So lets say it costs them 200,000 subs that means it will cost them 12,000,000 to replace those subs. Is a deal with tivo going to cost them 120mil or less- that's the question.

I suppose it's a bit more complex becasue tivo subs have an ongoing cost to directv in the 1 a month per box they pay tivo- so if a software update keeps 1 million people on tivo (the 200,000 diehards plus 800,000 others) then it cost directv a million a month. If they factor that in then it basically means tivo has to do the upgrade for little and even then after a while of people sticking to tivo it costs directv money every day.

I personally thought their churn would go way up but it seems not. So in the end it's simple math and tivo basically costs them an arm and a leg over time and robs them of any ability to get more money out of subs with addtional HD fees, or VOD charges that new boxes might allow them. So in the end I think tivo being a house brand just makes no sense unfortunately.

Now there are still ways to make the math work if tivo is an optional add-on like comcast and cox are trying....


----------



## HiDefGator

MichaelK said:


> I personally thought their churn would go way up but it seems not.


Almost all of the active DirecTivo's are SD units. Most of the owners have no idea that Directv and Tivo are no longer partners. Until they buy a new TV and need to upgrade their DVR, they could be using those DTivo's for several more years. The churn, if there is any, will be spread out over many years.


----------



## bonscott87

Guys like RS4 are sure silent about all the problems the latest Tivo (standalone) upgrade has caused. I thought Tivo was perfect and didn't have any bugs, especially after 8 years in the business? Hmmmmmmm...


----------



## terpfan1980

bonscott87 said:


> Guys like RS4 are sure silent about all the problems the latest Tivo (standalone) upgrade has caused. I thought Tivo was perfect and didn't have any bugs, especially after 8 years in the business? Hmmmmmmm...


He's too busy enjoying his dual buffers that are recording nothing because some user in the house cancelled the recordings.


----------



## Cudahy

I forgot to mention, MichaelK, that a 2 to 3 dollar a month extra fee for those that choose Tivo would probably have to be part of the deal. Not a big deal to anyone who has become a Tivo fan.


----------



## 20TIL6

bonscott87 said:


> Guys like RS4 are sure silent about all the problems the latest Tivo (standalone) upgrade has caused. I thought Tivo was perfect and didn't have any bugs, especially after 8 years in the business? Hmmmmmmm...


Yeah, the latest standalone upgrade on the S3 and HD units has caused a whole bunch of problems. Problems like multi-room viewing, TiVoToGo, and eSATA. I don't think the HR20 has ever experienced, and might never experience problems like MRV and TTG.


----------



## Sir_winealot

Wow, I guess "Team HR20" is having a slow day today.


----------



## bonscott87

20TIL6 said:


> Yeah, the latest standalone upgrade on the S3 and HD units has caused a whole bunch of problems. Problems like multi-room viewing, TiVoToGo, and eSATA. I don't think the HR20 has ever experienced, and might never experience problems like MRV and TTG.


And with all that lots of problems. At least according to the forum right here. Or are you going to tell me that isn't representative of the Tivo users experience with the upgrade?  Hmmmmm, boy that sounds familiar.


----------



## bonscott87

Sir_winealot said:


> Wow, I guess "Team HR20" is having a slow day today.


Yea, it's a bit boring speculating on the next 5-10 HD channels that will probably be added tomorrow.


----------



## BlackBetty

20TIL6 said:


> Yeah, the latest standalone upgrade on the S3 and HD units has caused a whole bunch of problems. Problems like multi-room viewing, TiVoToGo, and eSATA. I don't think the HR20 has ever experienced, and might never experience problems like MRV and TTG.


 :up: :up: :up:


----------



## 20TIL6

bonscott87 said:


> And with all that lots of problems. At least according to the forum right here. Or are you going to tell me that isn't representative of the Tivo users experience with the upgrade?  Hmmmmm, boy that sounds familiar.


I have (2) S3 units and (1) HD unit. Comcast with cablecards and everything. I went through the last two upgrades (9.1 to add Rhapsody, then 9.2 to add eSATA, progressive Unbox, and MRV, TTG).

I experienced no problems with either upgrade. None.

And this week, Comcast just added 10 or so HD channels to my lineup. CNNHD, AEHD, NFLHD, FOODHD (ahh, FOOD in HD), HGTVHD, etc, etc.

They really should build a community forum for you DTV guys.


----------



## BlackBetty

20TIL6 said:


> They really should build a community forum for you DTV guys.


+1


----------



## SullyND

20TIL6 said:


> They really should build a community forum for you DTV guys.


LMAO They should, some of them have even 'gone their own way' only to seemingly get lost on their trip.


----------



## bonscott87

20TIL6 said:


> I have (2) S3 units and (1) HD unit. Comcast with cablecards and everything. I went through the last two upgrades (9.1 to add Rhapsody, then 9.2 to add eSATA, progressive Unbox, and MRV, TTG).
> 
> I experienced no problems with either upgrade. None.
> 
> And this week, Comcast just added 10 or so HD channels to my lineup. CNNHD, AEHD, NFLHD, FOODHD (ahh, FOOD in HD), HGTVHD, etc, etc.
> 
> They really should build a community forum for you DTV guys.


See, you're not getting the tongue in cheek here.

See, people may post here that they have an HR20 and have had no problems. But all that is attacked with constant reference to all these problems people have. Mention that people have problem with Tivo and it's blasphemy.

So now a Tivo upgrade has problems for many people but it gets glazed over "but I don't have any problems". So it's ok for people to have a problem with Tivo but not ok for people to have problems with the HR20. 

Coffee - meet black kettle.


----------



## 20TIL6

bonscott87 said:


> See, you're not getting the tongue in cheek here.
> 
> See, people may post here that they have an HR20 and have had no problems. But all that is attacked with constant reference to all these problems people have. Mention that people have problem with Tivo and it's blasphemy.
> 
> So now a Tivo upgrade has problems for many people but it gets glazed over "but I don't have any problems". So it's ok for people to have a problem with Tivo but not ok for people to have problems with the HR20.
> 
> Coffee - meet black kettle.


I'm sorry. I forgot to "complete" my posting efforts. By your example I should have posted that I've had no problems with the 9.1 and 9.2 upgrades to my TiVo S3 and HD units over on the dbstalk forum. Exactly which forum over there would my information belong? I'm guessing the HR20 forum. I'm sure my post over there would be well received and full of value for the members over there.


----------



## Rigelian

bonscott87 said:


> See, you're not getting the tongue in cheek here.
> 
> See, people may post here that they have an HR20 and have had no problems. But all that is attacked with constant reference to all these problems people have. Mention that people have problem with Tivo and it's blasphemy.
> 
> So now a Tivo upgrade has problems for many people but it gets glazed over "but I don't have any problems". So it's ok for people to have a problem with Tivo but not ok for people to have problems with the HR20.
> 
> Coffee - meet black kettle.


If you read these forums, and if you experienced the 6.x upgrade, it appears that a number of HR10s have encountered glitches that have caused missed recordings. The 6.x upgrade was so buggy that a number of users refused to allow their Tivos to upgrade to it. I won't even mention the number of programs I missed from the someone cancelled your programming error that plagued me for a couple of weeks. It seems that that error has returned for some users. I find it odd that people who have experienced problem on their Tivo's seemed shocked and surprised if a problem like this happens on a few HR20s. In the case of the Directivo this was a product that has been on the market for a considerable amount of time.


----------



## bonscott87

20TIL6 said:


> I'm sorry. I forgot to "complete" my posting efforts. By your example I should have posted that I've had no problems with the 9.1 and 9.2 upgrades to my TiVo S3 and HD units over on the dbstalk forum. Exactly which forum over there would my information belong? I'm guessing the HR20 forum. I'm sure my post over there would be well received and full of value for the members over there.


You're still lost, but it's ok. It was a joke directed at the likes of RS4 and his DirecTV hate club. See, they post all the time how terrible the HR20 is (despite never using one) and site posts of problems as evidence of how terrible it is.

Then when someone posts "hey, it's bad that some people have problems, but for another side of the story I haven't had any problems" they are called DirecTV shrills and employees. Like it's totally impossible for someone to like a product other then Tivo. Parish the thought.

Then it gets pointed out that there are users of Tivos that have problems too as evidence that every product has problems. But that gets turned aside by showing polls of how Tivo users really would prefer Tivo over the HR20 and "but look, DirecTV is evil for kicking poor Tivo to the curb, why won't they listen to us!!!"

And thus it continues as seen by 30+ pages in this thread.

So the joke here was that a recent update to the Tivo stand alone line has caused many problems for some people but little notice by the haters. If this were to happen on the HR20 the haters would be out in full force about how amateur the DirecTV programmers are, how it's a beta product and how could they have ever thought of releasing such crap, see Tivo could have done it better.

But the same thing happens to Tivo, 8 year veteran of the DVR and nary a noise. It's ok because mama Tivo can do no wrong, she loves us and we just ignore people with problems, it never really happened. But bad old Uncle DirecTV is evil, evil I tell you no matter what!!!

This really could be a 4 part mini-series on the Soap network someday, it will make millions! :up:


----------



## terpfan1980

bonscott87 said:


> So the joke here was that a recent update to the Tivo stand alone line has caused many problems for some people but little notice by the haters. If this were to happen on the HR20 the haters would be out in full force about how amateur the DirecTV programmers are, how it's a beta product and how could they have ever thought of releasing such crap, see Tivo could have done it better.
> 
> But the same thing happens to Tivo, 8 year veteran of the DVR and nary a noise. It's ok because mama Tivo can do no wrong, she loves us and we just ignore people with problems, it never really happened. But bad old Uncle DirecTV is evil, evil I tell you no matter what!!!
> 
> This really could be a 4 part mini-series on the Soap network someday, it will make millions! :up:


Worse still, RS4 and friends are constantly beating up on the HR20 and praising the HR10 and DirecTV TiVo based boxes even while another active thread lately is complaining of the 'someone in your household' cancelled the recording issue for missed season pass recordings on the HR10-250.

Ooops, that oh so perfect HR10-250 isn't that perfect.

As Bonscot and others have pointed out, there are plenty of people that felt forced into abandoning the DirecTV DVR with TiVo boxes because the boxes had been neglected and updated versions that were released so badly broke the boxes that they stopped recording, deleted recordings mysteriously, recorded 0 minutes of recordings, and a host of other issues that caused people to turn on TiVo.

I don't claim to know that all of those problems were TiVo's fault, or were the fault of DirecTV. I would hazzard a guess that DirecTV is largely to blame, but it doesn't matter as all myself and many others have ever really wanted is DVRs that work reliably.

I left Dish network long ago because of bad experiences with the Dishplayer boxes. Those boxes started out ok but kept getting worse and there was nothing but finger pointing between Dish and Microsoft. It took Dish many years to even come close to putting out something as stable as the TiVo based DirecTV receivers had been, but then again Dish seems to have violated some TiVo patents in doing that. Oooops for them.

Really, I don't care about Dish at this point as I like the programming I get from DirecTV, and though I wish I could have the same programming at about $30 less a month, that just ain't gonna happen (not from Dish, not from FiOS, not from Comcast, not from anyone....) and in the meantime the HR20 has improved by leaps and bounds.

The HR20 is not a bad machine, despite what some DirecTV haters think. It is not a TiVo, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.

I'm still a fan of TiVo, still hold some stock in the wife's IRA, and hope it does well in the long term. I'd love to see TiVo develop a box that would work with both Dish and DirecTV, but they just don't seem inclined to do so, so in the meantime I'll go with whomever can provide me the best selection of HD programming at a price that doesn't leave my rear end sore every day.

The HR10 can't receive the new channels that I'm watching on the HR20, so it sits in the other room where my wife and daughter use it primarily as an SD receiver with lots of storage. If it screws up, I'm gonna hear it badly, so I pray it doesn't. If it does screw up, it is going to be replaced by an HR20 for sure.


----------



## RS4

Actually, I feel quite vindicated.  My point all along was that DirecTV rushed the HR20 to market without thinking about the folks that were going to use the box. I felt all along that because of the time constraints and the focus by DirecTV, their box was not anywhere near the ease of use of a Tivo.

So, my feeling has been that the HR20 is a distant second to the folks who know Tivo. But, we've had a group of evangelists from the HR20 crowd that tried to convince us that it was as good as or better then Tivo. But, of course the polls and threads here, on dbstalk, and other internet sites confirm exactly what I thought - Tivo is still number 1 rated dvr.

Now Scott and his crowd boasts about the second-rated HR20. They gleefully come over to this site and point out how they are spending hours and hours enjoying all of the new mpeg4 HD channels. They point out how much DirecTV loathes those of us who haven't converted to their way of thinking. That's fine, they can continue their childish bullying.

For now, I'll keep looking for a Tivo killer, because it's damned sure that DirecTV has only come out with second best. Until I find something better then Tivo, I will stick with it, because in this case I know I won't be happy with anything else.


----------



## JoeTiVo

RS4 said:


> ...For now, I'll keep looking for a Tivo killer, because it's damned sure that DirecTV has only come out with second best. Until I find something better then Tivo, I will stick with it, because in this case I know I won't be happy with anything else.


I agree with a lot of what you said. Tivo is still better at the game. However, our hands are being forced. If you want to stay with D* and you want to record all the HD available, there's no choice. If you want to stay with D* and record only the MPEG2 channels, you have a choice, but probably not for long. Once D* pulls the plug on the MPEG2 feeds, and they surely will to free up bandwidth, the only choice to record HD on D* will be the HR20/HR21.

I saw what was coming and decided to make the switch on my terms while I was able to get a good deal on the new hardware. I still miss my Tivo though. And I'll never give up my vanity 'TIVOGUY' license plates.


----------



## terpfan1980

RS4 said:


> For now, I'll keep looking for a Tivo killer, because it's damned sure that DirecTV has only come out with second best. Until I find something better then Tivo, I will stick with it, because in this case I know I won't be happy with anything else.


Your opinion only there Ronald. Your opinion only. And perhaps the opinion of a few people that answered a poll at some point in time.

Not necessarily the opinion of many others that are happy with the HR20, happy with remote booking, happy with DirecTV on Demand, and very happy with a slew of new hi-def channels that are showing up on their boxes.

Second best in my household is my Vista MCE box.

Third best is my Slingbox.

Fourth is the position of the TiVo based boxes.

And that comes from someone that holds some stock in TiVo and would love to see them get off their butts and come out with a box would plug in like a Slingbox Pro and grab and record the HD signal off *any* HD device, including a DirecTV H20 receiver. But then I'd have to add the caveat that I'd like that to happen at a reasonable price so I wouldn't feel ripped off at paying $13 to $20 a month for guide data that is already there on the DirecTV box.


----------



## SullyND

bdowell said:


> Your opinion only there Ronald. Your opinion only. And perhaps the opinion of a few people that answered a poll at some point in time.
> 
> Not necessarily the opinion of many others that are happy with the HR20, happy with remote booking, happy with DirecTV on Demand, and very happy with a slew of new hi-def channels that are showing up on their boxes.


You understand that this is a TiVo site and not a DirecTV site, correct? Whereas Ronalds opinion is his "opinion only" your "few" and "many" are fact. Funny how that works.

There is no reason that those features which you mention users being happy with could not be offered on a TiVo-based device. In fact, DirecTV will be offering remote booking on DirecTiVos and this is a feature they could have activated years ago.



bdowell said:


> And that comes from someone that holds some stock in TiVo and would love to see them get off their butts and come out with a box would plug in like a Slingbox Pro and grab and record the HD signal off *any* HD device, including a DirecTV H20 receiver. But then I'd have to add the caveat that I'd like that to happen at a reasonable price so I wouldn't feel ripped off at paying $13 to $20 a month for guide data that is already there on the DirecTV box.


So what you'd like to see is a single-tuner standalone TiVo which can record HD. Do you really think there is a market sufficient to support it's cost?

ComcasTiVo is the model that will make the most sense for TiVo going forward IMHO.

Got DirecTV? Got an HR20? Like TiVo? Pay an additional fee to have TiVo on that box (I would gladly pay 2x my DVR fee for TiVo and it would still be a deal)


----------



## bonscott87

RS4 said:


> Actually, I feel quite vindicated.  My point all along was that DirecTV rushed the HR20 to market without thinking about the folks that were going to use the box. I felt all along that because of the time constraints and the focus by DirecTV, their box was not anywhere near the ease of use of a Tivo.
> 
> So, my feeling has been that the HR20 is a distant second to the folks who know Tivo. But, we've had a group of evangelists from the HR20 crowd that tried to convince us that it was as good as or better then Tivo. But, of course the polls and threads here, on dbstalk, and other internet sites confirm exactly what I thought - Tivo is still number 1 rated dvr.


I like you, I really do. You still don't "get" it. Nobody is trying to convince you that the HR20 is better then Tivo. I may personally feel that way but it doesn't matter what I feel. The only posting going on here is to simply fight the FUD that the HR20 is a piece of crap. *You* may feel it is (despite never even using one I might add) but people want honest opinions. On both sides. Is it so hard for you to grasp that many, many people are doing just fine with their HR20s? Is it?

Plus the fact that if you want the new HD channels you have no choice?



> Now Scott and his crowd boasts about the second-rated HR20. They gleefully come over to this site and point out how they are spending hours and hours enjoying all of the new mpeg4 HD channels.


Truth hurts I guess. My wife and I completely enjoyed watching our hockey team in HD last night for the first time this season. MPEG4 of course. Getting that hockey game in HD trumps anything else my friend. Anything. Maybe not for you, but is does for us. Getting dozens of season passes in HD now trumps anything. Anything.

I really don't get this thing you have about "second rated". So people can't like something that isnt' top rated? If we all used "top rated" things there wouldn't be a variety of options out there. 
So if Toyota is the top rated car, are you telling me I can't enjoy my Ford or Kia?
If OS10 is the top rated operating system, you're telling me I can't enjoy my PC?
If the Wii is the top rated gaming console, I can't enjoy a PS3?
If Pioneer has the top rated HDTVs, I can't enjoy my Hitachi?
If iPod is the top rated music player I can't enjoy a Creative MP3 player?

*All you are doing is putting down and making fun of people that simply find it ok to use something else other then Tivo.* Top rated or not. In my personal situation, in my home, the best of it is actually better then our Tivo experience. Again, just us.

Your reasoning just doesn't ever make sense and it shows. What do I care if Tivo is the top rated DVR? Does that in any way effect my use or possible enjoyment of any other DVR out there from the HR20 to Media Center to Replay to Dish ViP? Of course it doesn't.

But *YOU* keep telling people that because Tivo is rated #1 that there is no way they could ever use something else?

And it's been said over and over again. If the features of Tivo are your #1 thing and nothing else matters then make the move. This isn't hidden from anyone, especially in this forum.

You really do need to get a dose of reality my friend. A big dose of it.



> For now, I'll keep looking for a Tivo killer, because it's damned sure that DirecTV has only come out with second best. Until I find something better then Tivo, I will stick with it, because in this case I know I won't be happy with anything else.


Excellent. Please sign up for cable, get your Series 3 with 1-3 year commitment and be happy. It's getting old, it really is.


----------



## nickhershman

In summary, if you want to sticking with TiVo for D*:

* you can record SD and MPEG-2 as of now.
* you cannot record MPEG-4 unless TiVo and D* get back together.
* MPEG-4 is going to rule and the rest will be gone, sooner or later.

So, I think I am going to prepare leaving D* sooner or later. Though Comcast won't be able to match D*'s quality when everything on D* becomes MPEG-4 because they cannot simply free up their bandwidth by canceling all their current analog users...

Our hope to enjoy best HDs and TiVo in the future is either 1) TiVo and D* get back together or 2) Comcast closes analog service.

Neither seem to happen very soon but unlike #1, #2 is going to happen eventually for sure.


----------



## terpfan1980

SullyND said:


> You understand that this is a TiVo site and not a DirecTV site, correct? Whereas _Ronald*s_ {*not necessarily RS4's real name} opinion is his "opinion only" your "few" and "many" are fact. Funny how that works.


Uh, I don't claim that 'few' and 'many' are facts. I used generalized terms because it can't be known for sure what the real numbers are and I don't care to over-estimate the number of people that claim to be fans of one system over the other, or don't claim to be fans of one over the other.

My point was that many people that answered those polls one way before may have changed their mind long since answering the polls. As more features are added to the HR20, as more channels are added in MPEG4 and available to users of HR20s, and as people become more familiar with HR20s and use them reliably over time, their demand for an MPEG4 TiVo based box goes down.

People have found work-arounds to the dual live buffer issue (record two programs simultaneously as an example), so complaints about that issue have been falling by the way-side though many people would still tell you that is still the most requested feature that simply *must* find it's way into the HR20's feature set. If it does, then many people that have been clamoring for TiVo based boxes might not see as much need for same.

Some people (again, with a generic term there) really feel that they must have the TiVo wish list feature.

Some people really feel that they must have Suggestions and ability to Thumbs up or Thumbs down programs.

But, those last few requests really start falling by the wayside when you ask people if they'd trade away channels in order to get them.

One of the flawed polls that RS4 (I'll stick with calling him Ronald for now...) cites is one in which someone hypothetically asks if an MPEG4 compatible TiVo box was offered would people trade away the HR20. Great poll. It does show that people really do like TiVo and would like to have an MPEG4 compatible TiVo box, but sadly it's a hypothetical and not real world at all. There is no MPEG4 compatible TiVo based box and there are no current plans for same, be it a standalone box (as I proposed and you pooh-poohed) or a box that is a combo DirecTV receiver + TiVo based DVR. Given an opportunity to trade an HR20 for an MPEG4 compatible TiVo box I *might* trade away the HR20, but I'd really need to know what other features are coming for both sets of boxes before I could make that decision.

Personally I don't need TiVo suggestions. I don't use 'em at all. Never cared for 'em at all. I don't want my DVR recording 24x7 or close to it. I don't need it to suggest some Spongebob Squarepants like show because my daughter was watching that, and I also don't need it to suggest a Taxicab Confessions like show because I was watching {oh, alright, I'll admit that getting a suggestion along those lines might be fun, but I'm full well capable of finding my own adult entertainment shows without help from TiVo}

I don't really need wish lists.

I would like to have dual live buffers, but I can live without them.

So, if you ask me to trade away the HR20 in favor of a box that has the same features that an HR10 currently has, even when/if remote booking actually shows up for it, I'm not sure I'd make that trade.

If you asked me to make that choice back when those polls were first up, you'd probably have gotten a completely different answer though (not necessarily for me though as I really did go into owning/using an HR20 with an open mind and didn't assume it was the same box as an HR10 and didn't expect it to be exactly the same as some have).



SullyND said:


> There is no reason that those features which you mention users being happy with could not be offered on a TiVo-based device. In fact, DirecTV will be offering remote booking on DirecTiVos and this is a feature they could have activated years ago.


True. At some mythical point in the future we've been promised remote booking type features for the HR10. I ain't holdin' my breath though. It took DirecTV + TiVo a long time to come out with the 6.x version that caught the boxes up (somewhat) with features that were in the DT (dual-tuner) series boxes. TTG (TiVo to Go) and MRV (multi-room viewing) are still no where to be found and aren't even suggested as possilble for DirecTV users.

What happens if TTG type features and MRV features do come to HR20 boxes? Will people that have complained for years about the lack of those features really want an HR10 type box then? Or, will they give up their HR20 boxes when you pry them from their cold dead hands?



SullyND said:


> So what you'd like to see is a single-tuner standalone TiVo which can record HD. Do you really think there is a market sufficient to support it's cost?


According to some Ronald like people there must be. People that HAVE to have TiVo and want DirecTV's slate of HD channels.

Heck, the box doesn't even need a tuner in it. It needs a decoder/encoder in it, needs to accept HDMI input and Component input and that's it. Also obviously needs the IR blaster to control the remote channel changing. i.e., an update of the original TiVo boxes.

Sadly, I expect that people would ***** and moan about the lack of dual input support, and they'd probably complain about the hi-costs of the guide/service for the box. The monthly subscription fee would probably cause many people to back away from getting such a box when they could just as easily get themselves a dual-tuner, MPEG4 compatible, DirecTV on demand supporting, remote booking supporting, DirecTV DVR (i.e., HR20/21).



SullyND said:


> ComcasTiVo is the model that will make the most sense for TiVo going forward IMHO.


Never said otherwise. It makes me sad that is the case, but yes, Comcast (and other cable companies) seems to be the direction that TiVo is headed into. I wish that they'd stay more provider independent, but they need the partnership with the providers really, so I understand why that is the case.



SullyND said:


> Got DirecTV? Got an HR20? Like TiVo? Pay an additional fee to have TiVo on that box (I would gladly pay 2x my DVR fee for TiVo and it would still be a deal)


You may say that as a hypothetical, but many people just won't do it. They don't want to pay that much more 'just for TV'.

Heck, there's enough people *****in' and moanin' about paying a $5 up-charge for the new HD extra pack. It's not like you'll get those peeps to pay much more for Tivo service.


----------



## MichaelK

Cudahy said:


> I forgot to mention, MichaelK, that a 2 to 3 dollar a month extra fee for those that choose Tivo would probably have to be part of the deal. Not a big deal to anyone who has become a Tivo fan.


Oh-

I'd pay it in a heart beat.

actually if there was such an option today I'd go back to Directv from Cable right now. But FOR ME right now tivo's UI out-weighs the current HD advantage that Directv has over my cable provider.

Directv could also win me back if the HD advantage they have continues to grow or if they add some really cool features to their homebrew DVR. (sounds like their version of downloads like amazon unbox is almost ready to go.)


----------



## MichaelK

here's what I get out of the pissing match:

1) what makes the HR20 better is it can do MPEG4. No one seems to argue that it has better features. So doesn't that play into the tivo lovers hands? 
2) the Tivo lovers seem to be telling the HR20 lovers (or defenders or fact checkers depending on your point of view) that this is a tivo fan site and the HR20 guys should respect that. What I take from that is that there's going to be a certain amount of bravado here towards tivo and the HR20 folks should understand that. 

Do you guys go to the Yankee fan forum and start fights with the Yankee fans that say the Yanks are best and the Red Sox suck? Clearly you could argue empirically that the Sox are better at the moment since they made it further. Yet I'm pretty sure that some Yankee sites would have such posts. What would you think of a guy who was a professed Red Sox fan that had to fight with the Yankee fan's on the issue? I'd think he's a prick- why even get involved. it's like bickering for the sake of bickering. Now go to MLB.com or ESPN.com and have that fight and it makes sense. These sorts of threads really belong at a more 'neutral' place in my humble opinion. Like AVS or DBStalk or whatever. But this is the tivo place. So many here just don't want to hear it.

If you are trying to 'set the record' straight for some unsuspecting person trawling the net looking for a dvr- I really dont think it's necessary. If they aren't intelligent enough to realize this is a tivo fan site and the views will be slanted then they probably aren't going to understand much of the arguments anyway. 

Just my 2 cents. I'm really not invested in the argument one way or the other. I left my HR10 at Directv last year for S3's on cable but I might just have Directv with HR20's come spring training time.


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## Cudahy

If a change in ownership wasn't about to happen it's pretty clear that the only choice for Tivo fans who also want to stay with Directv is to either give up Tivo or switch to cable. It' should become clear before the mpeg2 channels are dropped whether Malone taking over will make difference, probably by next spring. Anyone who wants both should just wait and see.


----------



## Mark Lopez

RS4 said:


> Actually, I feel quite vindicated.


Vindicated?  You have still yet to post a single negative HR20 point that can't be equally said about Tivo



RS4 said:


> My point all along was that DirecTV rushed the HR20 to market without thinking about the folks that were going to use the box.


Rushed to market? You mean like the HR10 was with it's zillion bugs (that many are still there and the new ones)?.  And perhaps they did think about the folks that would be using it and understand that most don't give a hoot about what name is stamped on it as long as it works (which it does).



RS4 said:


> Until I find something better then Tivo, I will stick with it, because in this case I know I won't be happy with anything else.


Translation - I'm a Tivo lemming and I don't have the free will to act on my own and actually try the thing I have been bashing for months.

Funny how I go away for a week and find you still spewing the same baseless FUD. Surely you can come up with something new, no? <sigh>


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## Matt L

Mark Lopez said:


> Translation - I'm a Tivo lemming and I don't have the free will to act on my own and actually try the thing I have been bashing for months.


Give me a break, if anything it is a perfect example of free will. He CHOOSE to remain with the HR10-250. Did you choose to switch? Did D force the HR20 into your hands? No, you choose to use it. Your free will.

I love the way people like you toss around the comment "try the thing you are bashing" when we can't without being stuck for years with a piece of equipment we may hate or for that matter love. It would seem to me if D had a great product they would not need the requirement, it should stand on it's own. 2 years is a long time as technology quickly evolves. You do believe in technological evolution don't you?


----------



## samo

Matt L said:


> here's what I get out of the pissing match:
> 
> 1) what makes the HR20 better is it can do MPEG4. No one seems to argue that it has better features. So doesn't that play into the tivo lovers hands?
> 2) the Tivo lovers seem to be telling the HR20 lovers (or defenders or fact checkers depending on your point of view) that this is a tivo fan site and the HR20 guys should respect that. What I take from that is that there's going to be a certain amount of bravado here towards tivo and the HR20 folks should understand that........
> It would seem to me if D had a great product they would not need the requirement, it should stand on it's own. 2 years is a long time as technology quickly evolves. You do believe in technological evolution don't you?


I don't know about "bravado", but if you have at least some objectivity left, you would see that, indeed, HR20 has more and better features than HR-10. Some of these features TiVo implemented in Comcast version of the software (perhaps at request of the Comcast to be able to compete with satellite).
If you would try to be objective, you would also mention that TiVo requires you to either prepay or commit for at least a year and if TiVo "had a great product they would not need the requirement, it should stand on it's own."
Besides, 2 year commitment is to the minimum level of the programming - not to the HR-20. You are free to return and/or exchange any hardware during these 2 years.


----------



## ShiningBengal

bonscott87 said:


> Just plug in an eSata, restart and you're done. Can't get any easier then that. 750 GB for $200 sounds pretty cheap to me.


If the internal drive on the HR20 fails, the system goes down, with or without an external drive. Then, pray tell, what do you do with your eSATA drive?

Presently, there is no way a user can replace the internal drive on his own, even ignoring the fact that as a lessee you have no authority to modify property that doesn't belong to you.


----------



## sjberra

ShiningBengal said:


> If the internal drive on the HR20 fails, the system goes down, with or without an external drive. Then, pray tell, what do you do with your eSATA drive?
> 
> Presently, there is no way a user can replace the internal drive on his own, even ignoring the fact that as a lessee you have no authority to modify property that doesn't belong to you.


Why would you want to replace the drive on your own, just call D*, have them send a new HR20, install esata drive on new hr20 and you are back in business, same as with a leased HR10.

Besides with the Esata drive installed on the HR20, the internal drive is turned off and is not in use, if the external drive fails, power off, unplug and boot and you are back in business.


----------



## RS4

samo said:


> I don't know about "bravado", but if you have at least some objectivity left, you would see that, indeed, HR20 has more and better features than HR-10. Some of these features TiVo implemented in Comcast version of the software (perhaps at request of the Comcast to be able to compete with satellite).
> If you would try to be objective, you would also mention that TiVo requires you to either prepay or commit for at least a year and if TiVo "had a great product they would not need the requirement, it should stand on it's own."
> Besides, 2 year commitment is to the minimum level of the programming - not to the HR-20. You are free to return and/or exchange any hardware during these 2 years.


The only significant feature that the HR20 has is mpeg4. Other then that, I believe that Tivo has had all of the other features on their stand-alone products for some time, but DirecTV would not turn them on the DTivos.

And of course the huge differences between the Tivo commitment and DirecTV is that Tivo offers a 30-day trial while DirecTV has absolutely nothing. Plus Tivo has a 1-year plan and a lot can happen in this market in a year.


----------



## RS4

MichaelK said:


> here's what I get out of the pissing match:
> 
> 1) what makes the HR20 better is it can do MPEG4. No one seems to argue that it has better features. So doesn't that play into the tivo lovers hands?
> 2) the Tivo lovers seem to be telling the HR20 lovers (or defenders or fact checkers depending on your point of view) that this is a tivo fan site and the HR20 guys should respect that. What I take from that is that there's going to be a certain amount of bravado here towards tivo and the HR20 folks should understand that.
> 
> Do you guys go to the Yankee fan forum and start fights with the Yankee fans that say the Yanks are best and the Red Sox suck? Clearly you could argue empirically that the Sox are better at the moment since they made it further. Yet I'm pretty sure that some Yankee sites would have such posts. What would you think of a guy who was a professed Red Sox fan that had to fight with the Yankee fan's on the issue? I'd think he's a prick- why even get involved. it's like bickering for the sake of bickering. Now go to MLB.com or ESPN.com and have that fight and it makes sense. These sorts of threads really belong at a more 'neutral' place in my humble opinion. Like AVS or DBStalk or whatever. But this is the tivo place. So many here just don't want to hear it.
> 
> If you are trying to 'set the record' straight for some unsuspecting person trawling the net looking for a dvr- I really dont think it's necessary. If they aren't intelligent enough to realize this is a tivo fan site and the views will be slanted then they probably aren't going to understand much of the arguments anyway.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. I'm really not invested in the argument one way or the other. I left my HR10 at Directv last year for S3's on cable but I might just have Directv with HR20's come spring training time.


Very well stated. I believe that reflects the feelings of many of us.


----------



## ebonovic

RS4 said:


> The only significant feature that the HR20 has is mpeg4. Other then that, I believe that Tivo has had all of the other features on their stand-alone products for some time, but DirecTV would not turn them on the DTivos.


So.... Comparing to an SA-DT TiVo unit (as this list would increase if we compared it to a DTiVo)

-) Same channel / Single Tuner channel overlap... This allows you to pad your recordings, for back to back shows on the same channel... without having to use your 2nd tuner. FANTASTIC for NBC and SCI-FI that don't respect their stated times.
-) DirecTV On Demand (Which is now available to the public with the current software update for the HR20-700)
-) Caller-ID on Screen
-) Mark and Delete
-) Group Play
-) Disk Space Monitor
-) Simultanous SD/HD Outputs (multiple HD outputs simultantious as well)
-) Closed Captioning Font and Color Options

YOU personally may not view some of these as significant... but others do.


----------



## bonscott87

ShiningBengal said:


> If the internal drive on the HR20 fails, the system goes down, with or without an external drive. Then, pray tell, what do you do with your eSATA drive?
> 
> Presently, there is no way a user can replace the internal drive on his own, even ignoring the fact that as a lessee you have no authority to modify property that doesn't belong to you.


I think your question may have been answered already but the internal drive isn't used when you use an external, the external replaces it.
If your internal dies you can get a replacement HR20 sent to you. Advantage of the lease.
And you can indeed replace the internal drive if you wanted to. Just plop a new drive off the shelf and it takes care of the rest. Must easier to just plug in a eSata drive.

And if you decide to get rid of the HR20 the eSata drive you have can now be easily used on your computer. Plug it in, format it and you're on your way.


----------



## newsposter

do you need to have a hooked up/working sata before your machine crashes?


----------



## sjberra

newsposter said:


> do you need to have a hooked up/working sata before your machine crashes?


that is a very good question, don't recall ever seeing it asked before.

Hazarding a guess, since the internal drive is disconnected as soon as you connect a esata drive, it has to load the base system from someplace, would guess a eprom, if this is true, then it should work the way you speak.


----------



## ebonovic

The operation/system software is on chip... and is not on the hard drive at all.

You will lose any of your customizations (like favorites, Series Link settings, ect...)

But the system should still boot, and recognize the external.


----------



## milominderbinder

RS4 said:


> The only significant feature that the HR20 has is mpeg4...


Ronald,

In addition to 70 national HD channels, HD Local Channels via satellite, MPEG4 nearly doubling HD recording time...

Are these HR20 features in the HR10?
● Quicker Response - no more of TiVo's constant "Please Wait" messages
● Quick Record - Press ® RECORD. Done! 
● Quick Series Link - Press ® RECORD twice to set up a Season Pass! Done!
● Hard Drive Usage Meter (%) in My Playlist shows how much space you have left.
● All video outputs are available at the same time
● Better Conflict Resolution - If you record a 3rd show at one time, choose to delete either previous or new requests!
● Soft Buffering - Extend a first show a few minutes longer and start next show a few minutes early-on two channels.
● Bookmarks - Bookmark a great play or a funny line to jump back to later.
● Picture In List - Watch TV while in the Guide or My Playlist (Now Showing)
● DIRECTV On Demand offers hundreds of additional programs
● You only have to connect a phone line for Pay Per Views
● Caller ID - Caller ID on screen pop-up option 
● Single Wire Multi-switch is just stating to roll out
● Remote booking through DIRECTV website
● Remote can be either RF or IR
● Group Delete
● Group Play
● Interactive channels
● Faster Fast Forward and Rewind speeds

Some things that still need to be fixed on the HR20:
● The ability to edit "all the programs" in the Prioritizer (even when there are no upcoming episodes) - manual p. 28.
● Title Search Autorecord - manual pp. 20 & 31 & release notes for 0x115, 0x119, & 0x11b
● The PREV button should be able to go back and forth between recordings - manual pp. 4, 11
● 30 Second Slip (Advance) is 34 Seconds, not 30 Seconds.

The page numbers show where the manual promises these features.

- Craig


----------



## newsposter

sjberra said:


> that is a very good question, don't recall ever seeing it asked before.


Thanks, they come around every once in a decade or two 



ebonovic said:


> But the system should still boot, and recognize the external.


Clearly a more quick way to get up and running, superior to even having a backup tivo drive in your drawer  Quick trip to the store for a drive and I'm back up and running. I love it.

Now if someone could just develop (an EZ) way to RAID the internal and external so we could have 100% backup, that would be perfect!


----------



## newsposter

I just had to add some *newbie* comments in case there are other *newbies* out there wondering about things like I did before I added my HR20. My comments are in *( ) * and again, this is just a 2 week users opinion so others in my shoes know what to expect when getting their new machine. Not meant to debate merits thereof.



milominderbinder said:


> ● Quicker Response - no more of TiVos constant Please Wait messages
> 
> (newbie note to other newbies: quick response IS very quick.... at the expense of 'instantly' knowing if you have a 3 way conflict. I learned the hard way you can set up series links and they dont kick in immediately and populate for the entire time for which you have guide data. You could have 3 things set up, get no warning because the SL takes a day or so to 'update.' And if the lower priority thing doesnt repeat, you are out of luck and unless you check the TODO or history list, you will never get your recording. With tivo, the will wait screen is truly my preference so i dont have to 'manage' the SL and other potential recordings by watching once the SL kicks in to see if other stuff was already previously recorded)
> 
> ● Quick Record - Press ® RECORD. Done!
> (I believe it's so quick because of no instant conflict resolution  But i may be wrong)
> 
> ● Quick Series Link - Press ® RECORD twice to set up a Season Pass! Done!
> (beautiful feature..if it only could set them ALL up instantly for all data in the guide..why is this such a limitation?)
> 
> ● Hard Drive Usage Meter (%) in My Playlist shows how much space you have left.
> (beautiful feature)
> 
> ● All video outputs are available at the same time
> (beautiful feature)
> 
> ● Better Conflict Resolution - If you record a 3rd show at one time, choose to delete either previous or new requests!
> (beautiful feature)
> 
> ● Soft Buffering - Extend a first show a few minutes longer and start next show a few minutes early-on two channels.
> (i haven't used this nor know how to yet)
> 
> ● Bookmarks - Bookmark a great play or a funny line to jump back to later.
> (i haven't used this nor know how to yet)
> 
> ● Picture In List - Watch TV while in the Guide or My Playlist (Now Showing)
> (nice to have but don't see the point honestly. If i'm watching a show, i want to watch the show. If i want to do maintenance (especially since HR20 is INSTANT with no delay, there is no need for PIL. Now TIVO needs PIL so we can watch while we wait to record!! honestly...)
> 
> ● DIRECTV On Demand offers hundreds of additional programs
> (i haven't used this nor know how to yet)
> 
> ● You only have to connect a phone line for Pay Per Views
> (nice no nags)
> 
> ● Caller ID - Caller ID on screen pop-up option
> (i haven't used this)
> 
> ● Single Wire Multi-switch is just stating to roll out
> (nice)
> 
> ● Remote booking through DIRECTV website
> (if i can do this now, i guess i need to catch up on my reading at dbs)
> 
> ● Remote can be either RF or IR
> (nice)
> ● Group Delete
> (I had no idea)
> ● Group Play
> (i had no idea)
> ● Interactive channels
> (tried active...nice addition but haven't explored much yet)
> 
> ● Faster Fast Forward and Rewind speeds
> (the 30 second skip queues up how many times you pressed it and displays, for instance, that you pressed it '6' times and shows that on the lower right corner. I feel that hr20 will never reboot because i've confused it whereas the tivo interface, when i 30 sec skip, it just seems to not like that i'm doing it 'so fast' and I have to slow down and wait for it to catch up)


----------



## ebonovic

newsposter said:


> (newbie note to other newbies: quick response IS very quick.... at the expense of 'instantly' knowing if you have a 3 way conflict. I learned the hard way you can set up series links and they dont kick in immediately and populate for the entire time for which you have guide data. You could have 3 things set up, get no warning because the SL takes a day or so to 'update.' And if the lower priority thing doesnt repeat, you are out of luck and unless you check the TODO or history list, you will never get your recording. With tivo, the will wait screen is truly my preference so i dont have to 'manage' the SL and other potential recordings by watching once the SL kicks in to see if other stuff was already previously recorded)


Same would be true with the TiVo unit, if that conflict happens outside the 14days.
When scheduling your recordings, your new Series Link is put at the bottom of your recording list... and depending on how you set the link, it will show you the conflict for the first recording.

So yes... something at the later periods of the 14 day will most likely NOT show the conflict information.



> (I believe it's so quick because of no instant conflict resolution But i may be wrong)


That first click setups a single record instantly, and will show you a conflict resolution screen.



> (beautiful feature..if it only could set them ALL up instantly for all data in the guide..why is this such a limitation?)


For the opposite reason why the TiVo is slow... it doesn't chug at exactly that moment... in the primary user interaction moment, through the 10,000's of entries in the guide data, to find the entire 14 days worth of scheduling.

It does in a background process at a later time.



> ● Soft Buffering - Extend a first show a few minutes longer and start next show a few minutes early-on two channels.
> (i haven't used this nor know how to yet)


Example: Set CHUCK to record 2 minutes LONG... SET HEROES to record 2 minutes early.

The HR20 will only use 1 tuner to record both of those shows... instead of using the second tuner.



> ● Bookmarks - Bookmark a great play or a funny line to jump back to later.
> (i haven't used this nor know how to yet)


Hit PAUSE, then GREEN while in playback of a record content.
Basically creates a custom skip-to-tick mark



> ● DIRECTV On Demand offers hundreds of additional programs
> (i haven't used this nor know how to yet)


See DBSTalk... we have a dedicated forum, to help you get started... or get you the information you need.



> ● Remote booking through DIRECTV website
> (if i can do this now, i guess i need to catch up on my reading at dbs)


See the Cutting Edge area of DBSTalk, as yes you can do it now (and have been able to for about a month now, if you take part in the trials)



> ● Group Delete
> (I had no idea)
> ● Group Play
> (i had no idea)


Select a GROUP... hit RED to DELETE
Select a GROUP... hit PLAY to group play in chronological order (of record date)


----------



## newsposter

ebonovic said:


> So yes... something at the later periods of the 14 day will most likely NOT show the conflict information.
> 
> {this is my issue..or rather my wife's....she manages 150+ passes on our 2 HDtivos (she's disabled and tv is her life and she is the master of all that is tivo lol) and started to move some over to HR20 but after she saw the delay in the later 'in guide' data, she wasn't too thrilled. For less of a power user, i'm sure this is no issue. But upon initial setup of SL, it is an issue for us. I said a delay between entering SL and recording manual shows would solve the issue}
> 
> Example: Set CHUCK to record 2 minutes LONG... SET HEROES to record 2 minutes early.
> 
> The HR20 will only use 1 tuner to record both of those shows... instead of using the second tuner.
> 
> {how in the world can they do that? So i can pad both shows and record a totally different program/s on tuner 2? wow)


{thanks for the other misc. info..my comments in brackets above}


----------



## ebonovic

Yes... I can see where a show doesn't have a consistant airing time... or you happen to catch a show during it's repeat cycle...

But for most cases.. (I would have to think the larger percentage)... that next airing would have the same conflicts as teh airing in 14 days.

But yes.. I can understand that issue with it having to do the "complete" scheduling at a later time.


-------------

As for the overlap...

They basically use the same tuner... and dual write the content to both of the file streams for the two recordings, during the overlap period.

Yes... you can overlap two shows on the same channel (since it is the same data stream)... and record a third.

The key is that they are on the same channel (CHUCK AND HEROES) are on the same channel.


----------



## terpfan1980

milominderbinder said:


> Roland,


I thought it was Ronald (and I'll keep using that...) or perhaps the more formal Mr. McDonald.



milominderbinder said:


> In addition to 70 national HD channels, HD Local Channels via satellite, MPEG4 nearly doubling HD recording time...
> 
> Are these HR20 features in the HR10?
> ● Quicker Response - no more of TiVos constant Please Wait messages
> ● Quick Record - Press ® RECORD. Done!
> ● Quick Series Link - Press ® RECORD twice to set up a Season Pass! Done!
> ● Hard Drive Usage Meter (%) in My Playlist shows how much space you have left.
> ● All video outputs are available at the same time
> ● Better Conflict Resolution - If you record a 3rd show at one time, choose to delete either previous or new requests!
> ● Soft Buffering - Extend a first show a few minutes longer and start next show a few minutes early-on two channels.
> ● Bookmarks - Bookmark a great play or a funny line to jump back to later.
> ● Picture In List - Watch TV while in the Guide or My Playlist (Now Showing)
> ● DIRECTV On Demand offers hundreds of additional programs
> ● You only have to connect a phone line for Pay Per Views
> ● Caller ID - Caller ID on screen pop-up option
> ● Single Wire Multi-switch is just stating to roll out
> ● Remote booking through DIRECTV website
> ● Remote can be either RF or IR
> ● Group Delete
> ● Group Play
> ● Interactive channels
> ● Faster Fast Forward and Rewind speeds
> 
> Some things that still need to be fixed on the HR20:
> ● The ability to edit "all the programs" in the Prioritizer (even when there are no upcoming episodes) - manual p. 28.
> ● Title Search Autorecord - manual pp. 20 & 31 & release notes for 0x115, 0x119, & 0x11b
> ● The PREV button should be able to go back and forth between recordings - manual pp. 4, 11
> ● 30 Second Slip (Advance) is 34 Seconds, not 30 Seconds.
> 
> The page numbers show where the manual promises these features.
> 
> - Craig


Nice list for comparison sake.


----------



## bonscott87

newsposter said:


> how in the world can they do that? So i can pad both shows and record a totally different program/s on tuner 2? wow


Easy, it just does.  It's smart enough to know that it doesn't need to use both tuners to record 2 programs on the same channel. This *BY FAR* is my #1 feature of the HR20 over the DirecTivo's and trumps dual buffers any day of the week (for my family). Can't tell you how many times I was frustrated with the Tivo on Friday nights when there were overlapping shows on SciFi and thus it refused to record anything else cause it would use both tuners.

And if you look in the ToDo list or MyPlaylist during that overlap time it will appear as if 3 things are being recorded at once.

And you can also overlap 2 programs on the other tuner. So say you have 2 NBC shows, both overlap each other and also 2 CBS shows at the exact same times overlapping each other.
Thus it records all 4 programs using just 2 tuners and in the ToDo list appears like it's recording 4 programs at once.

Very cool feature.


----------



## Lord Vader

I agree, Scott. I had forgotten about this feature until my unit did exactly that: it recorded two back-to-back shows on the same channel, clipping each one, so to speak. I was able to watch something on the other tuner, too, while this was occurring.


----------



## ckelly33

What a disappointing thread. Judging from the title, i was hoping for something more than people tossing around their personal opinions like anyone cares. 

How about just voting with your $$$$ and closing this thread. $$$ is all DirecTV is gonna care about anyway. I am a TiVo fan and left DirecTV because of it. D*TV offers a TON more HD channels than my cable provider but most if not all of the additional channels are not channels I watch anyway. I'd still love to have them, but not at the cost of losing my TiVo....but I can understand that HD content might outweigh the benefits of TiVo to another.


----------



## MichaelK

samo said:


> I don't know about "bravado", but if you have at least some objectivity left, you would see that, indeed, HR20 has more and better features than HR-10. Some of these features TiVo implemented in Comcast version of the software (perhaps at request of the Comcast to be able to compete with satellite).
> If you would try to be objective, you would also mention that TiVo requires you to either prepay or commit for at least a year and if TiVo "had a great product they would not need the requirement, it should stand on it's own."
> Besides, 2 year commitment is to the minimum level of the programming - not to the HR-20. You are free to return and/or exchange any hardware during these 2 years.


I'm objective- as I said I am on the fence to go back to the HR20 at directv- the only thing that keeps me with my S3's and cable at the end of the month with my triple play cheap pricing ends is inertia. So there's no need to try to insult me and imply I'm a "shill". As an example I just told my business partner who I previously talked into 2 SD directivos and wanted to upgrade to HD to get 2 HR20's instead of getting 2 Series3's with out local cable. He's a technological moron so if he has any problems I'll get 500 phone calls (i actually feilded about 5 from him already because of directv's idiot installers who said he had no line of site for the KU/Ka dish even though he already had a phase 2 working just fine- I could have easily had him get tivo and give me some referral points instead of telling him 3 different times to call back and demand a supervisor to get him installed- if I hated directv so much.

THe "directv cap" is arguing the brand new HR20 is better then the 4 year old HR10. No Duh there's more features there- directv has been holding tivo back for several years from adding anything new. And even now that the SD directivos are getting "upgrade" the HR10 isn't- so of course all the S3 Tivo-like features on the HR20 are better.. I think the "tivo lovers" are arguing the current generation Tivo's are better than the S3. But most importantly the HR10 has no MPEG4 and that's why it's almost worthless.

What are these more and better features that a CURRENT tivo doesn't have? no one seems to have mentioned anything that I see besides MPEG4. I see plenty that says it does everything just as good as tivo. But I dont see anything better mentioned (but to be honest- I'm not all that invested in the argument so I am not paying 100% attention to all this).

Online programming- S3 has it. VOD S3 has it. PLayback my home video's and music. S3 has it. So seriously- what am I missing- maybe I'll go back to directv next month. My 3 or 4th we want you back offer just came in the mail today... THey seem pretty similar to me except the current tivo's have dual buffers and MRV and wishlist, and suggestions if people are into that. And then people's opinions about UI are subjective.

commitments is silly to bring up- directv requires a 2 year commitment - what's your option with directv if you dont like their dvr- you have no option you suck it up for 2 years. there is no alternative dvr . Tivo gives you 30 days to bail and if you stay only a 1 year commitment. Both services subsidize their hardware (and in the case of directv installs) to a huge degree so that's why they lock people in. If Directv's MPEG4 service and HD DVR are so great they why lock people in for soo long?


----------



## MichaelK

ebonovic said:


> So.... Comparing to an SA-DT TiVo unit (as this list would increase if we compared it to a DTiVo)
> 
> -) Same channel / Single Tuner channel overlap... This allows you to pad your recordings, for back to back shows on the same channel... without having to use your 2nd tuner. FANTASTIC for NBC and SCI-FI that don't respect their stated times.
> -) DirecTV On Demand (Which is now available to the public with the current software update for the HR20-700)
> -) Caller-ID on Screen
> -) Mark and Delete
> -) Group Play
> -) Disk Space Monitor
> -) Simultanous SD/HD Outputs (multiple HD outputs simultantious as well)
> -) Closed Captioning Font and Color Options
> 
> YOU personally may not view some of these as significant... but others do.


earl- thanks for laying out the facts.

I think you should compare to an S3 or an HD Tivo for a "fair" comparison. WHy did you pick an sd unit? (doesn't matter only really effects simultaneous HD outputs).

Directv on demand is a kin to tivocast and unbox in my head (plus I really wonder what comcast, time warner, verizon, att are going to do if people really start using directv's VOD on their bandwidth. As I understand currently their is nothing stoppign them from screwing with directv and making that stuff crap out. I dont think any of the net neutrality proposals have gone anywhere. THey also all have invisible bandwidth caps and who knows if you would trigger them if you start using vod alot.)

I beleive that the tivo HD flavors have simultaneous SD and HD output as long as the cable compnay hasn't put flags on the content- NO? (sorry not a user of that feature so can't say)

Same channel overlap sounds very cool. :up: :up: :up: (annoys the pee out of me on tivo when i have back to back ont eh same channel and I have to go to the other recording to catch the last 30 seconds or whatever)

the other few things in my head dont quite amount to MRV but maybe to some they are more important.


----------



## bonscott87

MichaelK said:


> What are these more and better features that a CURRENT tivo doesn't have? no one seems to have mentioned anything that I see besides MPEG4. I see plenty that says it does everything just as good as tivo. But I dont see anything better mentioned (but to be honest- I'm not all that invested in the argument so I am not paying 100% attention to all this).


See Milo's post just a few before this one.


----------



## MichaelK

milominderbinder said:


> Roland,
> 
> In addition to 70 national HD channels, HD Local Channels via satellite, MPEG4 nearly doubling HD recording time...
> 
> Are these HR20 features in the HR10?
> ● Quicker Response - no more of TiVos constant Please Wait messages
> ● Quick Record - Press ® RECORD. Done!
> ● Quick Series Link - Press ® RECORD twice to set up a Season Pass! Done!
> ● Hard Drive Usage Meter (%) in My Playlist shows how much space you have left.
> ● All video outputs are available at the same time
> ● Better Conflict Resolution - If you record a 3rd show at one time, choose to delete either previous or new requests!
> ● Soft Buffering - Extend a first show a few minutes longer and start next show a few minutes early-on two channels.
> ● Bookmarks - Bookmark a great play or a funny line to jump back to later.
> ● Picture In List - Watch TV while in the Guide or My Playlist (Now Showing)
> ● DIRECTV On Demand offers hundreds of additional programs
> ● You only have to connect a phone line for Pay Per Views
> ● Caller ID - Caller ID on screen pop-up option
> ● Single Wire Multi-switch is just stating to roll out
> ● Remote booking through DIRECTV website
> ● Remote can be either RF or IR
> ● Group Delete
> ● Group Play
> ● Interactive channels
> ● Faster Fast Forward and Rewind speeds
> 
> Some things that still need to be fixed on the HR20:
> ● The ability to edit "all the programs" in the Prioritizer (even when there are no upcoming episodes) - manual p. 28.
> ● Title Search Autorecord - manual pp. 20 & 31 & release notes for 0x115, 0x119, & 0x11b
> ● The PREV button should be able to go back and forth between recordings - manual pp. 4, 11
> ● 30 Second Slip (Advance) is 34 Seconds, not 30 Seconds.
> 
> The page numbers show where the manual promises these features.
> 
> - Craig


sounds like there are a few other interesting features in there that Earl left out.


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## MichaelK

bonscott87 said:


> See Milo's post just a few before this one.


yup- saw earl's and his after i reaplied. Those 2 posts really should have been like 20 pages back and the people plugging the HR20 could have had an easier time. Prior to that all I honestly saw was people saying "it's MPEG4, its MPEG4" we all got that already about 2 years ago- LOL.

SOunds like the HR20 has a BUNCH of cool minor features while the Current tivo's have a few minor features plus MRV to make it better. MRV is cool new toy to me but honestly I could probably just get buy with getting an extra HR20 for 5 bucks a month more lease fee (that's all the addtional ones cost- right) and get basically MRV. (AND OF COURSE the extra 200 bucks capital cost reduction...)

anychance that HR20 gets an MRV like feature anytime soon?


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## bonscott87

MichaelK said:


> yup- saw earl's and his after i reaplied. Those 2 posts really should have been like 20 pages back and the people plugging the HR20 could have had an easier time. Prior to that all I honestly saw was people saying "it's MPEG4, its MPEG4" we all got that already about 2 years ago- LOL.


It's been posted a few times over the past year but it gets drowned out by the "it's not Tivo so it must suck" crowd. Honestly, if you want good information then DBSTalk (sister site to this one) is the place to go. It will be hard to find here, and with good reason probably since this is a Tivo forum afterall.


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## TyroneShoes

milominderbinder said:


> ...MPEG4 nearly doubling HD recording time...
> 
> - Craig


Craig, I mean you no disrespect, and I won't discount your list of features, but you might have done that yourself by undermining your own credibility. Accuracy is always much more believable than hyperbole, and thus more convincing and acceptable, at least in the opinion of skeptics, whom I assume are the targets of that information.

Don't both the stock versions of the HR20 and the HR10 in their own product literature claim "30 HD hours of recording time" or something similar? It's been widely reported that MPEG-4 as implemented by DTV yields about a 30% net efficiency over MPEG-2. Please explain to us how recordings from files that are approximately 30% smaller and that therefore take up approximately 30% less HDD space than MPEG-2 recordings could in any possible way be considered a "doubling" of HD recording time, and I will very happily retract that assessment.


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## newsposter

Record up to 200 hours of SD programming, up to 50 hours of HD programming

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=P4380062


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## bonscott87

I think official estimates are about 30 hours MPEG2 HD vs. 50 hours MPEG4 HD. So it's not quite doubling. But also, as we all know, depends on what you record. If you record a lot of sports that will take up more space then a sitcom. And 1080i takes up more space then 720p. So it's a moving target.


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## TyroneShoes

bonscott87 said:


> I think official estimates are about 30 hours MPEG2 HD vs. 50 hours MPEG4 HD. So it's not quite doubling. But also, as we all know, depends on what you record. If you record a lot of sports that will take up more space then a sitcom. And 1080i takes up more space then 720p. So it's a moving target.


OK, if it's 50 hours vs. 30, that's a factor of 1.666, which is somewhat more in line with what DTV is doing compression-wise, but 2/3 is still pretty far from 1/2, so hyperbole still rules in that original assessment. But that's still a good thing, and a true advantage point for the HR20. That number may be based also in that the original drive is a bit larger, is it not, in the HR20? Of course the addition of just about any size second drive to any HR10 kind of negates either capacity advantage nearly completely.

But with your permission, if I may let me clarify for others some statements that might be a bit misleading:

It's true, it does depend on what is recorded, but not so much on the content as what bit rate it is being sent at. Bit rates do vary in ATSC and DVB MPEG-encoded streams, but not very significantly based on content, and not very significantly based on whether they are 1080 or 720, and in fact usually not very much percentage-wise within a particular stream, at all, on the order of about 5% from static shots to action shots.

And true, it takes 8/7ths more bits to do 1080 equivalent to 720 as far as the level of potential artifacting goes, but that does not mean that an NBA game at 720 takes up 7/8ths of the space that it would at 1080. The bit rates are normally set by the broadcaster or program originator, and while what format they are using is a small factor in that highly-arbitrary decision, there are many larger factors, including how many bits are available. And the potential difference ONLY applies to 1080 that is not dumbed-down after the fact by DBS vendors (ahem!).

IOW, one CBS station may set their SMPTE310 encoding at 12 mb/s for the primary stream while another may encode at 14. But that rate doesn't change significantly from "Two and a half Men" to "NFL Sunday" on the same station. In fact, the aggregate bit rate could actually be more on the sitcom, or not. True, it takes more bits to encode action with an equivalent artifacting rate, but no one fine tunes things on the fly based on content, or that closely. Broadcasters set it for "one size fits all", and forget it. And so there is rarely much significant difference between video that takes lots of bits to encode and that that doesn't as far as the actual bit rate that is broadcast.

One exception is stat-muxed streams. For instance, FOX stat-muxes their feeds, so during prime time the rate can vary between 9 and 12 mb/s with constant wild swings a few seconds apart. But that doesn't track the action on the main feed, it varies depending upon the bit demands of the aggregate action on all feeds in the multiple-program transport stream.

As ironic as it might sound, that means your local FOX station's HD broadcast of SD-produced program "Tyra Banks" at 4 PM will hover around the rate set by the local broadcaster, which can be 15 mb or more, while "Bones" in prime time might only average about 10 or 11, and it will consequently take significantly less HDD space than the SD syndie show. Doesn't seem quite fair, does it?

So while "2/3 more hours = a doubling of HDD capacity" is pretty far from accurate, what is much more far from accurate is an assumption that sports will take up more space on your HDD than a sitcom, or that an hour of 720p will take less space than an hour of 1080i. For that to be even theoretically true it would depend on things being done in a very specific manner, and in a manner that is not commonly applied in the real world.

Could these be only opinions? Guesses? Half-understood conclusions? Sorry, but no. They are based in understanding the actual physics involved and the methods commercially employed, and come from first-hand information.


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## bonscott87

Wow. All I was saying is that it's listed at 50 hours but that will vary. Could be less, could be more. But what you said works too. :up:


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## MichaelK

bonscott87 said:


> It's been posted a few times over the past year but it gets drowned out by the "it's not Tivo so it must suck" crowd. Honestly, if you want good information then DBSTalk (sister site to this one) is the place to go. It will be hard to find here, and with good reason probably since this is a Tivo forum afterall.


I headed over there to start reading- looks like I need a few weeks to read and digest what directv is currently doing...


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## newsposter

is it 'step sister' site since there are different owners now?


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## Cudahy

New story on the turnover to Malone says it's being held up by concern over Directv exclusive sports contracts. No word about how long this might last. 
Got another phone message from Directv last night trying to get me to give up my HDTivo.


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## Budget_HT

Cudahy said:


> ...Got another phone message from Directv last night trying to get me to give up my HDTivo.


Did they make you a no-cost-to-you replacement offer?


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## purple6816

They offered to replace all my tivo's for free. Who is getting the better deal?


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## louiss3000

purple6816 said:


> They offered to replace all my tivo's for free. Who is getting the better deal?


HDTivo's or SDs as well?


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## milominderbinder

newsposter said:


> I just had to add some *newbie* comments in case there are other *newbies* out there wondering about things like I did before I added my HR20. My comments are in *( ) * and again, this is just a 2 week users opinion so others in my shoes know what to expect when getting their new machine. Not meant to debate merits thereof.


Even if you read every page of the HR20 manual you would not know about the:

144 Undocumented HD DVR PLUS Tips & Tricks

This can help you with the new terminology:

● TiVo Users Survival Guide

See the _HD DVR FAQ_ for much more.

Did you download the new release this weekend that add the backdoor for a real TiVo style Skip and the ability to play videos from your PC?

- Craig


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## milominderbinder

I think this is the answer to that question:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=377846

Note that ReplayTV and TiVo agreed to not sue each other over patents:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/emergingtech/0,1000000183,2125720,00.htm

There were two ways to get to town. DIRECTV just bought the other way.

Even Swanni got the connection:

http://www.tvpredictions.com/dreplay121307.htm

- Craig


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## Philly Bill

rminsk said:


> That is the squirrel I've been hunting for... WHERE IS HE????


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## nrc

milominderbinder said:


> I think this is the answer to that question:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=377846
> 
> Note that ReplayTV and TiVo agreed to not sue each other over patents:


Actually they didn't. At least as far as was publicly announced they only agreed to drop their then current infringement suits without prejudice. Without prejudice meaning that they reserved the right to bring the same suit again.

There's no doubt that this is a defensive move by DTV. Without it and with a strong judgement against Dish TiVo would have had them over a barrel in 2010. This doesn't necessarily give them a free pass, TiVo's patent will have held up in court while Replay's is (AFAIK) untested, but it will probably make other targets more attractive.

In any case, this should be considered a fork stuck in any hopes of a future DirecTV TiVo.


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## Mark Lopez

TyroneShoes said:


> Of course the addition of just about any size second drive to any HR10 kind of negates either capacity advantage nearly completely.


True, but ease of doing it should also be considered. I just bought a 1TB eSATA drive for my HR20. Plugged it in, rebooted and presto tons of space. No hacking, no opening the case, just plugged it in and done.


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## milominderbinder

DIRECTV went back to NDS...

DIRECTV Extends Contract with NDS

- Craig


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## herdfan

NDS makes the smart cards that D* uses.



> NDS has consistently provided secure and flexible conditional access technology


It says nothing about DVR's.


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## badmonkey

milominderbinder said:


> DIRECTV went back to NDS...
> 
> DIRECTV Extends Contract with NDS
> 
> - Craig


This is just for the access cards...


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## newsposter

good info


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## Scooter

newsposter said:


> good info


You gonna dig up all of the old threads? 

Scooter


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## newsposter

i believe in rewarding those who predicted correctly


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## smak

Can I assume that this thread now contains some excellent reading 

-smak-


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