# Upgrading to TiVo from FIOS DVR



## psubsee2002 (Jan 2, 2008)

I've seen a couple of similar threads, but nothing that really hit on my big question. I am not a TiVo user currently nor have I been in the past, and I've never actually used the TiVo interface before. I am getting tired of the slow and buggy FIOS DVR, poor IMG, and the fact that they keep delaying the new version of the IMG, so I am looking at my options.

I've found enough info on the Series3 vs TiVo HD boxes, compatibility and CC issues, etc. But it seems like the similar threads I've found, everyone has previous experience with TiVo, so they know what they are getting themselves into. I was hoping someone who has experience with both the FIOS DVR and TiVo could shed some light on the subject for me and convince me it is the right way to go. 

I appreciate any insight (good or bad) anyone might be able to offer. Thanks in advance.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

I used the FiOS DVR for about a year before I got the TivoHD.

My two biggest reasons for buying a Tivo were (1) Verizon's unreliable guide data provider, and (2) limited storage capacity.

With its Motorola boxes, FiOS currently uses a cheaper guide data provider whose program information is not nearly reliable or comprehensive as TiVo's. On average, I missed several recordings per month with the FiOS DVR due to faulty guide information or improperly flagged shows. I have not missed any shows since upgrading to the TiVo. For me, reliability is the best thing about the TiVo.

The FiOS DVR has a 160Gb hard drive (20 hours HD) and cannot be upgraded or expanded. The TiVo supports external hard drive expansion. With the TiVo, you can also upgrade the built-in hard drive. It took me less than 25 minutes total to upgrade the 160Gb drive in my TivoHD with a new 1TB drive ($120) which gave me over 150HD hours and 600 SD hours of capacity.

The TiVo has series recordings like the Motorola DVR, but it also does something that the Motorola DVR can't -- content based recording. The TiVo can be set to continually search every channel you receive and record all content -- regardless of date, time, and channel -- matching certain title keywords, keywords in the description, actors / actresses in the movie, directors, or subject matter. You can combine any/all of this criteria into a single autorecord search; you can make certain keywords or actors required, optional, or excluded. Here's a screenshot of my autorecord "wishlist" search for presidential debates; the items in parenthesis are used to indicate OR. Here's another example which I use to record all Washington Capitals hockey games, regardless of date, time, and channel.

There are plenty of other differences, of course. Menu navigation on the TiVo is more intuitive. The TiVo supports high-definition multi-room viewing so you can view HD recordings from your Living Room Tivo on your bedroom TiVo. The TiVo allows you to download SD and HD recordings -- in full resolution and quality -- directly to any computer over your home network, which you can then burn to DVD. The TiVo will also let you view photos and listen to music stored on a computer in your home.

The only areas where the Verizon DVR outperforms the TiVo is in (1) channel surfing and (2) VOD. The TiVo DVR does not support FiOS' VOD. The Verizon DVR is also better suited for channel surfing than the TiVo. The TiVo is really designed around recording and viewing recorded programs. Guide avigation is a little slower on the TiVo, but DVR function response (pause, replay, fast forward, 30s skip, etc) is much faster on the TiVo. As long as most of the programming you watch is recorded, you are going to be thrilled with the TiVo.










Note how multiple recordings of same series are grouped; the episode titles are listed inside each folder. The folders with stars contain programs automatically recorded across multiple channels with boolean search; these folder names are fully customizable. Without such grouping, a DVR with 1TB capacity and dozens of recordings would quickly become cumbersome.



> Tivo Functionality Screenshots
> 
> Recorded list
> Separate Recorded Lists for adults and children
> ...


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## JStew (Oct 1, 2007)

psubsee2002 said:


> I've seen a couple of similar threads, but nothing that really hit on my big question. I am not a TiVo user currently nor have I been in the past, and I've never actually used the TiVo interface before. I am getting tired of the slow and buggy FIOS DVR, poor IMG, and the fact that they keep delaying the new version of the IMG, so I am looking at my options.
> 
> I've found enough info on the Series3 vs TiVo HD boxes, compatibility and CC issues, etc. But it seems like the similar threads I've found, everyone has previous experience with TiVo, so they know what they are getting themselves into. I was hoping someone who has experience with both the FIOS DVR and TiVo could shed some light on the subject for me and convince me it is the right way to go.
> 
> I appreciate any insight (good or bad) anyone might be able to offer. Thanks in advance.


I had the Fios 6416 DVR for about a year before I finally became frustrated enough to purchase an S3 in Oct and haven't looked back.

After obtaining the Tivo, I called Verizon and had two cable cards installed a week later.

I just can't imagine using anything remotely close to that 6416 ever again. I've since purchased an additional hard drive for the Tivo and kick myself for using the 6416 for as long as I did.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

I am amazed that people did not like the Fios DVR. My Dad just got it installed last week and it seems to have everything that Tivo has, seems to operate quickly and has added advantage of access to VOD.

I can't wait for Fios in my area, picture was great, a lot more HD choices than Comcast and the DVR was really nice IMHO.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> My two biggest reasons for buying a Tivo were (1) Verizon's unreliable guide data provider, and (2) limited storage capacity.





JStew said:


> I've since purchased an additional hard drive for the Tivo and kick myself for using the 6416 for as long as I did.





Chimpware said:


> *I am amazed that people did not like the Fios *DVR. My Dad just got it installed last week and it seems to have everything that Tivo has, seems to operate quickly and has added advantage of access to VOD.


It's a shame you didn't take the time to read the posts above yours. I'm amazed anyone who read the posts wouldn't understand limited, and non-upgradeable capacity and inferior guide data are two main reasons why people don't like the FiOS supplied DVR.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Here's the simple answer: The FIOS DVR is s piece of crap compared to a Tivo. It doesn't even come close to a Tivo in terms of flexibility, functionality, upgradability, and capacity. I took a long hard look at the Moto DVR that FIOS was offering and it was a slam dunk in making the decision to go with the Tivo. There simply wasn't any comparison. For those of you that think the QIP-6416 is a good DVR, it's painfully obvious that you've never seen what a decent DVR can do. If you had you'd quickly see the shortcomings of the Motorola unit. The QIP-6416 is a DVR for the ignorant (i.e., as in uninformed and uneducated).


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Here's the simple answer: The FIOS DVR is s piece of crap compared to a Tivo. It doesn't even come close to a Tivo in terms of flexibility, functionality, upgradability, and capacity. I took a long hard look at the Moto DVR that FIOS was offering and it was a slam dunk in making the decision to go with the Tivo. There simply wasn't any comparison. For those of you that think the QIP-6416 is a good DVR, it's painfully obvious that you've never seen what a decent DVR can do. If you had you'd quickly see the shortcomings of the Motorola unit. The QIP-6416 is a DVR for the ignorant (i.e., as in uninformed and uneducated).


I have a FiOS (Motorola) DVR and a TivoHD. The tivo has better guide data and can be upgraded. Otherwise the FiOS is a useable unit. *It's a DVR for people on a budget*, nothing to do with intelligence.


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## DJ Qube (Nov 21, 2008)

I have FIOS' Motorola 6416 in one room, a Tivo HD in another, and the Tivo HDXL in a third. I'll be getting another Tivo HD to replace the 6416 once my free year of FIOS DVR runs out. I'll list the major differences between the Tivo system and the FIOS DVR.

1) FIOS - Much faster guide surfing... pretty much instantaneous. Tivo Guide speed is more than usable, though.

2) FIOS - Much more informative guide. Shows movies in one color, sports in another, etc. Tivo only has one color for all show types. FIOS also indicates in the guide which shows are going to be recorded, and Tivo, surprisingly does not.

3) FIOS - Shows how much space is left on your DVR. Tivo surprisingly. doesn't have a way to show this.

4) FIOS - If you use predictive typing, it is much faster to enter text when searching for programming. The only way to enter text in the TIVO is to navigate the alphabet.

That's about it as far as FIOS advantages. Here are the major TiVO advantages, which for me, far outweigh the drawbacks.

1) TIVO - Much, Much Much more room to record, especially on the XL. Plus, you can expand with the My DVR Expander or by hacking. The recording room on the FIOS DVR is ridiculously small.

2) TIVO - Can play pretty much any kind of video from your PC with PyTivo software. This is such a great feature if you ever download content. I watch just as much downloaded content as TV content, so this was a dealbreaker for me. To be able to navigate shows you download through the same interface you watch TV is amazing.

3) TIVO - Much faster response with in-show navigation. FFWD, Replay, 30-second skip, 15 minute skip, etc. work much better than FIOS. FIOS doesn't even have a way to skip forward or backwards in big 15 minute chunks. With that bug in the FIOS box that makes it skip to the start of a program accidentally, the lack of this feature is very frustrating.

4) TIVO - Multiroom viewing works very well. Definitely NOT true with FIOS Set Top Box system linked to the FIOS DVR. Playback was very buggy for me.

5) TIVO - Much better system for finding content you like. The show rating (thumbs up / Thumbs down) wishlists, swivel search, recommended shows, etc. are great functionalities. You can't really compare this functionality to FIOS, because FIOS doesn't have anything like it.

6) TIVO - Much better conflict resolution. When you are overlapping shows, TIVO is much more clear on what is conflicting and how you want to resolve it. FIOS conflict resolution leads to a lot of guess work.

7) TIVO - Enables channel filtering. This is separate from setting Favorite channels. Since most of the good channels that FIOS offers also come in HD, you can turn off the SD versions. Plus, you can turn off stuff like QVC, International channels that you don't understand, etc. This makes guide surfing much easier. 

It is a nice chunk of change to go with a TiVo system, but was well worth it IMO.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

DJ Qube said:


> I have FIOS' Motorola 6416 in one room, a Tivo HD in another, and the Tivo HDXL in a third. I'll be getting another Tivo HD to replace the 6416 once my free year of FIOS DVR runs out. I'll list the major differences between the Tivo system and the FIOS DVR.


1) FiOS DVR will let you MRV to a standard (non-DVR) STB. Limited (non-expandable) capacity makes this feature less valuable.

2) FiOS DVR let's you view your content in a small window while you're doing something else.

3) FiOS DVR has an eSATA port. The port isn't currently active but the box has the capability to use an external drive (future?)

4) FiOS DVR is less expensive, although you get what you pay for. The monthly cost for tivo service and cable cards may be more expensive then the monthly cost for a FiOS DVR. Apples to apples comparison. Tivo fans, many of us, will use a pre-paid (or lifetime) price in comparing the cost of service but that's not really a fair comparison. There is no "up front" cost with a FiOS DVR but tivo customers have to pay $250-$300 for a TivoHD.

5) FiOS DVR can access Verizon VOD. Shows on cable network (Dexter for example) and some network shows are available. Some of the shows people record on tivo don't have to be recorded by customers with FiOS DVRs.

6) Verizon takes care of broken DVRs (swap out). Hard drives are the most likely item to fail and many of us would rather just do it ourselves *but most customers aren't looking for a hands on DVR experience *

7) Verizon will swap out the box if required as part of a system upgrade. Our current tivo boxes may become paperweights when/if Verizon implements the IPTV model that was announced.

I agree tivo is the superior product *but only for those customers who are willing to pay more and are will to accept more of "hands on" experience.*

No question tivo has better guide data but some people think Verizon will be switching to Tribune when the current contract expires. I wouldn't spend the extra money for tivo if guide data was the only reason.


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## Scyber (Apr 25, 2002)

Chimpware said:


> I am amazed that people did not like the Fios DVR. My Dad just got it installed last week and it seems to have everything that Tivo has, seems to operate quickly and has added advantage of access to VOD.
> 
> I can't wait for Fios in my area, picture was great, a lot more HD choices than Comcast and the DVR was really nice IMHO.


Well you did respond to a thread that was almost a year old. The OP did say he was waiting for the new IMG, which means he was still on the old FIOS software. The new IMG is much better than the old software (now that the initial bugs were worked out).

There are still plenty of other reasons to like TiVo instead of the FIOS DVR though. Many are listed above, another reason is that the FIOS DVR can't multi-room from DVR to DVR. Only non-DVR STBs can view the DVR content. Which means that if you need more than 2 DVRs (with a family with varying tastes this is not that uncommon), you will be limited to where you can watch your shows.


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## Timber (Apr 28, 2002)

One thing I LOVE about TiVo is how it makes itself the center of your TV-watching experience and not just an afterthought. Does the FIOS DVR do this?

-=Tim=-


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

Wow a lot of emotion about this. I responded to an old thread as the Forum recommends this, but point taken about outdated opinions.

So basically it comes down to expandability, which is a reasonable point as well as access to downloaded content and ability to offload material to an iPod or other offline viewing method. Some of this is offset by access to a large library of VOD content, but point taken.

Interesting that there is no mention of the often painful experience of getting Tivo up and running with Cable Cards. My last experience with Comcast and MCards was flawless and took only 30 minutes for 2 Tivos, but the norm for me has been hours. Granted not explicitly Tivos fault, but part of the experience.

Another benefit of the Fios DVR is MRV on other STBs and with most recent software this is HD as well as SD. This is a nice feature that could be used to effectively deliver whole house video without additional hardware and wiring.

For all those with flippant comments like the Fios DVR is a POC, and I would not know a DVR if I saw one, I am one of the original adopters of DVRs, and have owned the original Tivo, DirectTivo, ReplayTV, TivoHD and have built my own based on a PC running BeyondTV.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Guide data remains an issue with FiOS. The Tribune data used by tivo is more detailed, and accurate, then the data used by FiOS.

The FiOS DVR isn't a "POC" but it might seem like a "POC" if you're recording a number of shows that suffer from the guide data issue problems. Secondary shows like Monk will properly show as first run or repeat on my tivo (Tribune data) but I find FiOS will frequently show all Monk episodes as new. A lot of items have to get deleted from the "to do list" every time a "marathon" is aired.

I think the cable card issues are overblown and is basically a one time issue. The potential of a one hour install becoming 2 hours is manageable. This problem will go away when/if cable systems allow for self installation of cable cards.

Verizon has an extra monthly fee if you want to enable streaming to other STBs. This feature might have more value if the FiOS DVRS had more capacity (larger internal drive), had the eSATA ports activated or at least let you have more then one DVR available. These "issues" negate this feature for many customers. Verizon might consider including a larger internal hard drive or an external hard drive as part of the fee that's paid for the home media option. At a minimum activate the eSAT port for those customers.



Chimpware said:


> So basically it comes down to expandability, which is a reasonable point as well as access to downloaded content and ability to offload material to an iPod or other offline viewing method. Some of this is offset by access to a large library of VOD content, but point taken.
> 
> Interesting that there is no mention of the often painful experience of getting Tivo up and running with Cable Cards. My last experience with Comcast and MCards was flawless and took only 30 minutes for 2 Tivos, but the norm for me has been hours. Granted not explicitly Tivos fault, but part of the experience.
> 
> ...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lew said:


> I have a FiOS (Motorola) DVR and a TivoHD. The tivo has better guide data and can be upgraded. Otherwise the FiOS is a useable unit. *It's a DVR for people on a budget*, nothing to do with intelligence.


Being uneducated has nothing to do with intelligence. It's all a matter of what you've been exposed to. The vast majority of Verizon DVR users are happy with it simply because they don't know any better. If it records their favorite reality or game show when they want then they're perfectly satisfied with it. Everyone doesn't look at the technical aspect of it or the extra features they could get out of it. To them it's simply an appliance with a single task. If it performs that task reasonably well then they could care less if a Tivo has better features.

The Verizon DVR is most definitely not for people on a budget because a Tivo HD or S3 Tivo can be had for less cost than the QIP-6416 on a monthly basis if you commit to a multi-year service agreement. Granted, some people may balk at the upfront cost of purchasing a Tivo plus having to pay for a multi-year service plan in one big chunk, but it's still cheaper in the long haul to go with a Tivo, especially once you realize you're getting a whole lot more for your money.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I have both a TivoHD and a Verizon DVR. I am qualified to comment. I find many of the posters on TCF tend of overvalue tivo features, undervalue Verizon FiOS DVR features and understate the costs of a tivo.

Tivo "wins" if you consider expandability and (current) guide data. I've read FiOS will be switching to Tribune, when their current contract expires, but I'm not sure if that's true.

Other "extra" features are (at best) a wash. To be fair I suspect the extra FiOS features are probably more valuable to the "average" customer then the extra tivo functions. FiOS gives you access to extensive VoD offerings (many free), some "widgets", MRV to a standard STB and access to Verizon messages,including a recent announcement regarding a free weekend of HBO/CINEMAX. Features like TTG are used by many of us on TCF but probably not by the "average" user. I don't use tivo suggestions. Tivo wishlist is better then anything FiOS has but I don't know how much value an average customer puts in that feature. FiOS will also repair the DVR. "Average" customers like having one place to call with problems.

Tivo is a premium product. Many of us think it's worth the $$$. Tivo is more expensive, if you do a fair "apples to apples" comparison. Sorry but a fair comparison doesn't include comparing 1/36 of a three year pre-paid plan with a monthly FiOS fee. You don't get to exclude the possible cost of repairing a tivo. Not everyone wants to repair their own unit.

edited to add Tivo give me access to some Youtube videos, FiOS gives me access (no extra charge) to all current season episodes of premium channels I subscribe to. I can see shows like Dexter. Last year I started watching Dexter. Instead of waiting for Netflix to catch up I was able to watch the end of S1 and all of S2 "on demand".

How about this cost comparison? Hypothetically charge the cost of the tivo and three years of pre-paid service to a credit card. Assume the customer is paying typical credit card interest (12-24%). You can't compare a pre-paid cost with montly unless you include a factor for interest. Assume the customer is make a monthly payment to this "hypothetical" account equal to the difference between the cable card fee and what the cost would be for the FiOS DVR.

I'm paying $5.98 for two S cards but only $8.01 per month for my FiOS DVR (after a promotion). Sorry but *$2.03 per month isn't going to cover the cost of purchasing a tivo, tivo service and any possible repair costs. *The numbers don't work if I had to pay full price for the FiOS DVR (15.99-5.98=10.01). $10 doesn't cover the cost of tivo service, if you include any interest, let alone cover the cost of the equipment.

Don't suggest a M Card. I'm sure I'd have to pay a truck roll fee and have to pay the newer (higher) cc fee. Assume no truck roll fee but $4cc fee. $8 still won't cover the costs of tivo (equipment, service, allowance for repair and interest).

*Educated people don't claim a tivo is less expensive then a cable company provided DVR.* IT'S NOT.

The members of TCF are tivo customers. Many of us consider tivo a premium product. I don't think tivo is even worth considering if a customer doesn't need/or isn't prepared to pay to exapnd recording capacity.



mr.unnatural said:


> Being uneducated has nothing to do with intelligence. It's all a matter of what you've been exposed to. The vast majority of Verizon DVR users are happy with it simply because they don't know any better. If it records their favorite reality or game show when they want then they're perfectly satisfied with it. Everyone doesn't look at the technical aspect of it or the extra features they could get out of it. To them it's simply an appliance with a single task. If it performs that task reasonably well then they could care less if a Tivo has better features.
> 
> The Verizon DVR is most definitely not for people on a budget because a Tivo HD or S3 Tivo can be had for less cost than the QIP-6416 on a monthly basis if you commit to a multi-year service agreement. Granted, some people may balk at the upfront cost of purchasing a Tivo plus having to pay for a multi-year service plan in one big chunk, but it's still cheaper in the long haul to go with a Tivo, especially once you realize you're getting a whole lot more for your money.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

lew said:


> Tivo "wins" if you consider expandability and (current) guide data. I've read FiOS will be switching to Tribune, when their current contract expires, but I'm not sure if that's true.


According to a Verizon employee on forums.verizon.com, there are no plans to switch guide data providers for Verizon's own equipment.

The most important feature to me in a DVR is reliability. Reliability is just not something you are going to get with the Verizon DVR while they remain with their current guide data provider.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lew said:


> I have both a TivoHD and a Verizon DVR. I am qualified to comment. I find many of the posters on TCF tend of overvalue tivo features, undervalue Verizon FiOS DVR features and understate the costs of a tivo.
> 
> Tivo "wins" if you consider expandability and (current) guide data. I've read FiOS will be switching to Tribune, when their current contract expires, but I'm not sure if that's true.
> 
> ...


And the debate goes on. Did you really expect you'd find supporters of the Verizon DVR in a Tivo forum? I've got FIOS but I blew off the QIP-6416 after doing a good deal of in-depth research before I decided to purchase my S3 Tivos. Here are the major points that convinced me to go with Tivo over the Verizon DVR:

1. Capacity. The Motorola QIP-6416 only comes with a 160GB hard drive with no venue for expansion. That amounts to about 20 hours of HD recording in a single week. Between my HTPC with six ATSC tuners and two S3 Tivos I generally record about 50 hours of programming in any given week. The Moto box is pathetic when compared to any other DVR in terms of recording capacity. I hacked my S3 Tivos to add larger hard drives right out of the box.

2. Lack of multiple IR codesets. This goes hand in hand with point No. 1 above. Since I do a great deal of recording, I need more than one DVR to handle the task. My HTPC is used strictly for OTA HD locals, which actually amounts for the vast majority of the programs I watch. The lack of additional codesets for the QIP-6416 means that you cannot have more than one of the DVRs in the same room without operational interference when using the remote. You cannot control multiple DVRs independently of one another. With Tivos you can control up to nine DVRs in the same room without interference. I've had as many as six or seven Tivos active in the same room at the same time at one point or another.

3. Tivo-To-Go. I archive a lot of TV series to DVD so having this feature is a major bonus. Truth be told, I hacked my S3 Tivos for video extraction long before TTG was implemented in later software updates. This leads me to another major selling point of the Tivos in that they can be modified to have features above and beyond a stock DVR. No other DVR on the market can be hacked by the consumer to add more features other than expanded recording capacity. Obviously this is not going to be a dealbreaker for most people but it certainly was a major factor in my decision to go with Tivos over the Moto box.

4. Multi-Room Viewing (MRV). While I don't personally use this feature since all of my DVRs reside in the same room, many people find this an essential feature for sharing recorded programs throughout their house. Verizon does offer an MRV solution but it's limited to standard definition programming (or at least it was when I first checked them out. This situation may have changed since that time).

The lack of VOD is irrelevant to me since I never miss a show with all of the recording options I have at my disposal. I believe if you look at the signatures of a vast number of members in this forum you'll find that it's not uncommon for Tivo owners to have multiple Tivos. I also subscribe to NetFlix so PPV is of no interest to me, especially since I can enjoy my Blu-Ray rentals in 1080p vs. 1080i. If you like the peace of mind that leasing hardware provides, then by all means, get the Verizon DVR and never have to worry about repairs or upfront costs. If the points I made above are important to you then the added cost of buying a Tivo will be worth the investment. In all the years I've owned Tivos (i.e., since they were first introduced about 8 or 9 years ago), I've never had to send a single Tivo out for repair out of the dozens of Tivos I've owned. Consumer electronics all suffer a certain percentage of failures with any given product so there will undoubtedly be those that aren't as fortunate as I've been.

The cost of ownership is what it is. Since Verizon doesn't offer any prepaid plans for a multi-year agreement I can only break down the Tivo's cost based on the monthly cost spread out over the length of the commitment. When you compare the Tivo's cost vs. the Verizon DVR's cost over that period the Tivo usually wins, especially if you own more than one Tivo with the MSD. The point is that Tivo offers many lower priced options for owning their DVR whereas Verizon charges you a flat monthly fee with no discount for multiple DVRs. You will always be able to recoup at least part of your initial investment by selling your Tivo on ebay or Craig's List. I would never tinker with hardware that I lease from a provider but I love the fact that I can hack my Tivo to my heart's content.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Even if FIOS paid me, I wouldn't use their DVR. I would rather pay my monthly cc fees($2.99 x 8) and TiVo fees($6.95 x 4) to use my TiVos. I do have the FIOS HD STB(for $9.99 a month) but only for access to HD VOD content. The TiVo is a much better value to me than the FIOS DVR.


lew said:


> I have both a TivoHD and a Verizon DVR. I am qualified to comment. I find many of the posters on TCF tend of overvalue tivo features, undervalue Verizon FiOS DVR features and understate the costs of a tivo.
> 
> Tivo "wins" if you consider expandability and (current) guide data. I've read FiOS will be switching to Tribune, when their current contract expires, but I'm not sure if that's true.
> 
> ...


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> And the debate goes on. Did you really expect you'd find supporters of the Verizon DVR in a Tivo forum? I've got FIOS but I blew off the QIP-6416 after doing a good deal of in-depth research before I decided to purchase my S3 Tivos. Here are the major points that convinced me to go with Tivo over the Verizon DVR:


I'd expect *honest information* which doesn't included questioning the intelligence or education of people who don't share your opinion.

This is a tivo forum. I'd expect *honest posters, interested in providing accurate information* would say something like tivo is a premium product. Costs more, buy you're going to use the features.


> 1. Capacity.


 Agreed, those people who need/want extra capacity and are willing to pay extra should look to alternate solutions.


> 2. Lack of multiple IR codesets.


 This is the kind of feature that benefits some of the "geeks" in this forum. Only *a moron thinks this is a feature a typical user * has any use for. Sorry but an educationed or intelligent person is likely to put no value in this feature. I agree it benefits a small number of users.


> 3. Tivo-To-Go. I archive a lot of TV series to DVD so having this feature is a major bonus. Truth be told, I hacked my S3 Tivos for video extraction long before TTG was implemented in later software updates. This leads me to another major selling point of the Tivos in that they can be modified to have features above and beyond a stock DVR.


 A poster who is attacking the intelligence and education of users who don't appreciate the value of the tivo should be upfront and state the only way to hack the series 3 units we're discussing is to modiy a chip that's soldered to the motherboard. I agree TTG is a feature that tivo offers but I question how mch value people put on this feature.


> 4. Multi-Room Viewing (MRV). While I don't personally use this feature since all of my DVRs reside in the same room, many people find this an essential feature for sharing recorded programs throughout their house. Verizon does offer an MRV solution but it's limited to standard definition programming (or at least it was when I first checked them out. This situation may have changed since that time).
> 
> The lack of VOD is irrelevant to me since I never miss a show with all of the recording options I have at my disposal......


VoD is great if you decide to watch a cable series in the middle; after the early episodes are no longer aired but before the series is available on DVD.
FiOS will MRV to a regular STB. I think FiOS will MRV HD.



> The cost of ownership is what it is. Since Verizon doesn't offer any prepaid plans for a multi-year agreement I can only break down the Tivo's cost based on the monthly cost spread out over the length of the commitment. When you compare the Tivo's cost vs. the Verizon DVR's cost over that period the Tivo usually wins, especially if you own more than one Tivo with the MSD. The point is that Tivo offers many lower priced options for owning their DVR whereas Verizon charges you a flat monthly fee with no discount for multiple DVRs. You will always be able to recoup at least part of your initial investment by selling your Tivo on ebay or Craig's List. I would never tinker with hardware that I lease from a provider but I love the fact that I can hack my Tivo to my heart's content.


Tivo never wins an honest cost comparison. I can't buy a tivo, pay tivo service and pay for any possible repairs for $2.00/ month.

*You questioned the intelligence and education* of people who don't share your opinion. I suspect FiOS is happy to give tivo the share of the market who is willing to alter a chip soldered to the motherboard, who want to put multiple units in one room and who are looking to archive shows to DVD or convert to mobile formats (I-Pod).

I question the intelligence of any person doesn't respect the opinons of others.

A lot of people want to deal with one vendor. They get one bill. One place to call for support. Those people have no interest in removing soldered chips.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lew said:


> I'd expect *honest information* which doesn't included questioning the intelligence or education of people who don't share your opinion.


I'm not sure where all the hostility is coming from in your responses unless you're taking my posts completely out of context. If someone is not familiar with Tivos then they're uneducated on the subject, period. It has nothing to do with their level of intelligence, nor did I ever insinuate that it does. Apparently you don't understand what being uneducated truly means. If you aren't familiar with something then that makes you uneducated on the subject as well as ignorant. It's not meant to be a derogatory slur but rather a statement of fact (try looking it up in a dictionary). The name calling is unwarranted and more than a bit immature so get over it already.

I was trying to indicate what features were important to me when I decided on which DVR to go with. Obviously the criteria that's important to me is not important to you. OTOH, there are a lot of members here that fall into the same category as me. We don't necessarily get categorized as "typical" DVR users and many of us have more than one Tivo in our homes, making some of the features I mentioned extremely important to us (i.e., the multiple IR codesets, for example).



> Tivo never wins an honest cost comparison. I can't buy a tivo, pay tivo service and pay for any possible repairs for $2.00/ month.


And paying $2.00 a month is an honest cost comparison? Like I said, not everyone gets lucky enough to get the same deal as you. I'm providing cost comparisons based on the costs most of us pay (and they're the same costs you'll pay when your special offer expires). Verizon charges $15.99 per HD DVR on a monthly basis everywhere FIOS is offered across the country. I pay less than that for each of my S3 Tivos, including the cost of four cablecards. If you factor in the initial investment of owning the Tivo then obviously the cost of ownership goes up.

I've never had any problems with a Tivo I couldn't fix myself (software and/or hard drive issues) so the lack of any extended warranty or unlimited service you'd get with leased hardware is a non-issue for me. The upfront cost of Tivo ownership is a major issue for some, but as you said, a Tivo is a premium product and will cost you extra.

The opinions I offer are just that - my opinion. I'm as entitled to mine as you are to yours. I'm a Tivo enthusiast and love the idea that I can modify them to my heart's content. This is not something everyone will, or should, do. The Motorola QIP-6416 is a barebones DVR and will never be anything other than a plain vanilla DVR with extremely limited capabilities. Comparing the 6416 to a Tivo is like comparing a Yugo to a BMW. They'll both provide you basic transportation but one of them will do it with far more enjoyment.

All I can say is, if you're happy with the Verizon DVR then I wish you nothing but the best. Everyone has the right to choose the DVR that's right for them.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm not sure where all the hostility is coming from in your responses unless you're taking my posts completely out of context. If someone is not familiar with Tivos then they're uneducated on the subject, period. It has nothing to do with their level of intelligence, nor did I ever insinuate that it does. Apparently you don't understand what being uneducated truly means. If you aren't familiar with something then that makes you uneducated on the subject as well as ignorant. It's not meant to be a derogatory slur but rather a statement of fact (try looking it up in a dictionary). * The name calling is unwarranted and more than a bit immature so get over it already. *.


but you're the one who claimed people who don't share your opinion are uneducated or lack intelligence. A person can be familar with the features of tivo and the FiOS DVR and believe the FiOS feature set beter suits their needs or is a better deal. You continue to insist only an uneducated person could possibly disagree with you.

The 6416 is not a "Yugo", the Yugo isn't even in current production. The 6416 has some of the same features as tivo, has some features tivo doesn't offer and is lacking in other features.

"List" price for a Verizon DVR is $16 and two cable cards cost $6 (M cards are still rather rare). The $10/ month difference won't pay the cost to purchase a tivo and the tivo service fee.

Any honest discussion must include the fact that tivo is a premium priced product. The premium price is worth it to some of us but not worth it to the majority of customers.


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## jay0k (Nov 8, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> And the debate goes on. Did you really expect you'd find supporters of the Verizon DVR in a Tivo forum? I've got FIOS but I blew off the QIP-6416 after doing a good deal of in-depth research before I decided to purchase my S3 Tivos. Here are the major points that convinced me to go with Tivo over the Verizon DVR:
> 
> 2. Lack of multiple IR codesets. This goes hand in hand with point No. 1 above. Since I do a great deal of recording, I need more than one DVR to handle the task. My HTPC is used strictly for OTA HD locals, which actually amounts for the vast majority of the programs I watch. The lack of additional codesets for the QIP-6416 means that you cannot have more than one of the DVRs in the same room without operational interference when using the remote. You cannot control multiple DVRs independently of one another. With Tivos you can control up to nine DVRs in the same room without interference. I've had as many as six or seven Tivos active in the same room at the same time at one point or another.


Holy smokes. How much TV do you watch? I love TV just as much as the next guy but might I suggest not forgetting to live life.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lew said:


> but you're the one who claimed people who don't share your opinion are uneducated or lack intelligence. A person can be familar with the features of tivo and the FiOS DVR and believe the FiOS feature set beter suits their needs or is a better deal. You continue to insist only an uneducated person could possibly disagree with you.


Talk about beating a dead horse. You're taking my posts completely out of context. I have never insisted that anyone disagreeing with my opinion is either uneducated or lacks intelligence. All I'm saying is that if a person has never been exposed to a Tivo and does not know what it can do then they are uneducated about them. You keep saying that this somehow is related to their intelligence. I have never said any such thing so stop putting words into my mouth. I have also said that you can pick whatever DVR suits your needs. If you believe the Verizon DVR is a better deal for you then who am I to tell you otherwise? Get a life, willya?



jay0k said:


> Holy smokes. How much TV do you watch? I love TV just as much as the next guy but might I suggest not forgetting to live life.


LOL. Far too much, I'm afraid. The thing is, by timeshifting the shows I want I can watch them at my leisure so I'm not forced to do so at the time the networks choose to air them. I can watch a 1-hour show in less than 45 minutes by skipping the commercials. If I don't have time to sit through an entire show I can pause it and pick it up later. I actually have more time to do the things I want other than watch TV. I probably only watch about 3-4 hours of TV a night when I'm home, which relates to less than 3 hours of actual time. My Tivos and HTPCs tend to get backed up with several weeks' worth of programming because I'm not always home to watch them. When the shows go into reruns I'm still watching first-run episodes and eventually get caught up with them once the new episodes start back up again.


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## DeWitt (Jun 30, 2004)

Just for fun, browse some of the other non tivo forums on the Internet and see what the general opinion of the Verizon DVR is.

From what I have read, the general opinion is that compared to other DVRs available from satellite and cable providers (Even leaving tivo out as a premium option) the Verizon DVR is the worst one out there. Check for yourself...it is hard to find any fans.

While there may be many reasons why a Verizon customer might choose to use the DVR supplied by Verizon instead of a Tivo, simplicity of dealing with a single vendor, integration with services etc. The overall quality of the product is most likely not one of them. 

I have a Tivo HD and a Verizon HD DVR, since they gave me one for free for one year as part of my package. As soon as the year is up it will be replaced with a seond tivo.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Posters who want to know what a "DVR Yugo" looks like should take a look at this new DISH product (for OTA use)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=414121

Here is your original post, in it's entirety--I bolded the last sentence.



> Here's the simple answer: The FIOS DVR is s piece of crap compared to a Tivo. It doesn't even come close to a Tivo in terms of flexibility, functionality, upgradability, and capacity. I took a long hard look at the Moto DVR that FIOS was offering and it was a slam dunk in making the decision to go with the Tivo. There simply wasn't any comparison. For those of you that think the QIP-6416 is a good DVR, it's painfully obvious that you've never seen what a decent DVR can do. If you had you'd quickly see the shortcomings of the Motorola unit. *The QIP-6416 is a DVR for the ignorant (i.e., as in uninformed and uneducated). *


I'll accept your statement that your post doesn't read the way you intended.

I currently use a TivoHD and a Verizon DVR. I'll say the Verizon DVR appeals to those people who are on a budget and are looking for an easy DVR solution. Some people prefer the extras that FiOS offers but I'll agree "geeks" prefer tivo. Many of the features you love; multiple IR codes, ability to modify a soldered chip, and even TTG are features that an informed and educated consumer may reject as being of limited value.

Limited hard disk space is the biggest negative (IMO) with the FiOS box. VoD somewhat reduces the need for space. The box has an eSAT port. Verizon could solve that problem by activating the port.

edited to add

DeWitt--FiOS is using the same Motorola box used by other cable systems. The biggest issue with the Motorola box is the guide data currently being used by FiOS. Otherwise the DVR is OK.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

At least we agree on some things. The lack of sufficient recording capacity is the one major drawback of the Verizon DVR. The hackability of a Tivo most definitely attracts more of the "geek" sector than the mainstream, which is why I separated it from the main features that would appeal to most people. TTG falls into that same category, but to a much wider extent. Lots of people like the ability to transfer shows to their PC and convert them to other formats (i.e., DVDs, iPods, etc.). Until TTG was available as a built-in feature, Tivo owners had to hack their machines to gain this functionality. In fact, the entire topic of video extraction was banned from discussion here until TTG was introduced, but now it's discussed freely since Tivo now endorses it. 

The fact is, many of the features that once had to be hacked into a Tivo are now implemented as standard features on a stock Tivo. Apparently someone at Tivo, Inc., was paying attention to the hacking community and decided to include features that many people obviously wanted (you're welcome, BTW). There are actually very few reasons to hack a Tivo these days, at least when it comes to the latest HD models. Older models are still widely hacked, as evidenced by the 10,000+ posts in the Zipper support thread alone.

This being a Tivo forum, it shouldn't be too surprising to find that virtually everyone here owns a Tivo. Many Tivo owners probably own more than a single Tivo (they're addictive), making the multiple IR code feature important to at least some of them (not everyone has them all in the same room like I do). Having multiple DVRs allows diehard couch potatoes like me to record multiple programs simultaneously without conflicts. Since I pad my recordings to prevent loss of any content, I need more available tuners than the average user.

The initial costs of Tivo ownership aside, the monthly costs to own a Tivo are on a par with the Verizon DVR and much less if you own multiple DVRs. Verizon offers no discount whatsoever for multiple DVRs wheras Tivo has the Multi-Service Discount for loyal Tivo owners. Failure rates of Tivos are no worse than any other consumer electronic device (except perhaps the hard drives, which are easily replaced by the end user) so the peace of mind offered with leased hardware is something the subscriber has to decide for themselves. Besides, if it's a dealbreaker for you then you could always buy a Tivo from Best Buy and get the extended warranty they offer. It does add to the overall cost of ownership but at least you'll sleep better at night knowing you're covered if a failure occurs.


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## wm2008 (Jan 3, 2009)

psubsee2002 said:


> I've seen a couple of similar threads, but nothing that really hit on my big question. I am not a TiVo user currently nor have I been in the past, and I've never actually used the TiVo interface before. I am getting tired of the slow and buggy FIOS DVR, poor IMG, and the fact that they keep delaying the new version of the IMG, so I am looking at my options.
> 
> I've found enough info on the Series3 vs TiVo HD boxes, compatibility and CC issues, etc. But it seems like the similar threads I've found, everyone has previous experience with TiVo, so they know what they are getting themselves into. I was hoping someone who has experience with both the FIOS DVR and TiVo could shed some light on the subject for me and convince me it is the right way to go.
> 
> I appreciate any insight (good or bad) anyone might be able to offer. Thanks in advance.


Here is an honest and unbiased opinion based on having both. I currently have both Tivo HDs and a Moto 6416-2.

The Tivo is clearly a better user interface, is more friendly after a relatively short adaptation period, and is far more expandable in terms of HD MRV and storage. When working it is clearly a superior product and is more pleasant and convenient to use.

The Moto (Verizon DVR) unit in my experience is more reliable, more stable, more dependable. It experiences (again in my experience) none of the troubling bugs that the Tivos have experienced. I have never experienced either lockups or pixelation on my Verizon unit. I have never had more than a few days when I didn't experience them with my Tivos. The VZ unit unfortunately cannot be expanded in terms of storage, and to my knowledge still cannot do MRV with HD units and content.

The VZ unit is definitely less expensive both up front and long term.

IMHO, the Tivo (when working properly) is far better suited for "power users", and the VZ unit is a good choice for "light viewers" for lack of a better description.

Again, IMHO don't expect that the Tivo will be less "buggy" or that support will be better. Others may disagree but I simply don't believe Tivo is the same company that it was a few years ago. If you are willing to deal with some bugs and some support issues, then the Tivo is awesome. If you're leery of defects and bugs and especially if you're on Fios, I'd be very careful about your expectations.

I would also disagree with the cost assessment of the previous post. I can find no circumstance where the Tivo solution is not more expensive than the Verizon DVR solution. Remember, you're paying for cablecard(s) on a monthly basis, plus the Tivo costs, plus the cost of the Tivo, plus maintenance/repair/replacement after the first year. I've already had one Tivo HD fail after 9 months.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

wm2008 said:


> I would also disagree with the cost assessment of the previous post. I can find no circumstance where the Tivo solution is not more expensive than the Verizon DVR solution. Remember, you're paying for cablecard(s) on a monthly basis, plus the Tivo costs, plus the cost of the Tivo, plus maintenance/repair/replacement after the first year. I've already had one Tivo HD fail after 9 months.


For anyone signing up for FiOS as a new customer -- don't be afraid to negotiate. As I was signing up for the FiOS triple play, I told them the price they charged for CableCARDs was a deal breaker, since Comcast was charging me only $1.50. Verizon decided to give them to me for free -- actually, they give me a credit equal to the charge.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

wm2008 said:


> Again, IMHO don't expect that the Tivo will be less "buggy" or that support will be better. Others may disagree but I simply don't believe Tivo is the same company that it was a few years ago. If you are willing to deal with some bugs and some support issues, then the Tivo is awesome. If you're leery of defects and bugs and especially if you're on Fios, I'd be very careful about your expectations.


This is more the exception than the rule. You only hear about the problems associated with a device like a Tivo in public forums like this. You rarely see posts like "It's now three years after I bought my Tivo and I'm still not having any problems with it." Most of the problems you see are related to hardware and software issues, both of which can be easily remedied with a little research. Pixelation on a Tivo has more to do with signal strength than anything else. It's well known that the signal delivered by FIOS is very hot (i.e., extremely strong) and is probably overdriving the tuners in a Tivo, causing the image to pixelate. A simple attenuator fixes this problem very easily. The Motorola DVRs are undoubtedly matched to handle the signal level that FIOS delivers, which is probably why it seems like it works better for you. I've had numerous Tivos going on 8 or 9 years now and I've rarely, if ever, experienced the problems that some have reported with their Tivos.



> I would also disagree with the cost assessment of the previous post. I can find no circumstance where the Tivo solution is not more expensive than the Verizon DVR solution. Remember, you're paying for cablecard(s) on a monthly basis, plus the Tivo costs, plus the cost of the Tivo, plus maintenance/repair/replacement after the first year. I've already had one Tivo HD fail after 9 months.


And this is where it actually pays to upgrade your Tivo hard drive, even if it's still under warranty. The OEM drive is only warrantied for the period that covers the entire Tivo (90 days for labor, 1-year for parts). Any off-the-shelf hard drive will be guaranteed for at least three times as long as a Tivo and sometimes more, depending on the brand of drive you choose (usually 3-5 years). Since the vast majority of Tivo problems are either software or hard drive related, it's usually a simple matter of re-imaging the software or replacing the drive, neither of which is complicated with today's Tivo software utilities that are freely available.

If everyone was as concerned about paying for repairs then we'd all be driving Hyundai's or leasing our cars. The arguments about not buying a Tivo because there's a remote chance it could require service down the road are extremely weak at best. I don't see anyone leasing their HDTV's or other A/V hardware so what's the big crisis with buying a Tivo? The vast majority of Tivo owners will never have to have their Tivo repaired, unless it falls into one of the categories I indicated. As such, repair costs should not be factored into the cost of ownership since the chances of your Tivo ever needing a repair are remote at best. Sure, your Tivo could break but you'd probably have better odds being a $1,000 scratch-off winner at your local 7-Eleven.

The thing is, with Tivo you now have a choice of DVRs. You can choose the provider's lame DVR or you can upgrade to a Tivo. DirecTV and Dish have cut out competitors from this market so if you want a DVR, you're stuck with what they have to offer. Ironically, even though DirecTV developed their own DVRs that appear to be a success, they have decided to develop a new DVR in conjunction with Tivo. No doubt customer pressure had a lot to do with this decision, not to mention the fact that The Tivo is still superior in many ways (start another thread instead of rekindling a flame war of the HRXX DVR vs. a Tivo because it's all been said too many times before).

Here's what I see as being the only valid reasons not to buy a Tivo vs. leasing the Verizon DVR:

1. Not having the funds to purchase it up front (good deals can be had with a little searching).

2. Not having the funds to buy into a prepaid service plan (the straight Tivo service fee is $12.95 per month plus the cost of two cablecards at around $4 per month apiece on average unless you can get a single M-card; prepaid plans will bring the monthly Tivo cost below what Verizon charges for their box)

3. You don't watch that much TV and only record shows on but rare occasions

4. You could care less about a Tivo's advanced technology

5. VOD is the most important feature to you and you don't want to be bothered with planning ahead to record your shows to watch (FWIW, many of the shows I watch are never available via VOD)

6. You don't care if your DVR misses shows on occasion

7. You work for Verizon and get your DVR for free (YMMV since I wouldn't want one even if it was free)

Feel free to post whatever reason floats your boat for not getting a Tivo vs. a Verizon DVR. No doubt some newbie is dreaming up a new poll thread as I post this.


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## wm2008 (Jan 3, 2009)

Well, I pretty much disagree completely with the above post. The fact is that my experiences are NOT the exception rather than the rule. My experiences range across multiple devices. 

Your statement about the ease of fixing pixelation is frankly disengenous at best. Completely misleading and false at worse. Attenuation does not fix all the attenuation problems, and the fact is that the problem IN SOME CASES seems to be related to hot signals, yet other devices do not seem to experience those flaws. The issue is within the Tivo tuner sensitivity. 

I've missed many recordings on the TivoHDs. I've yet to have a single VZ Moto unit fail to record.

Most people don't want to have to be geeks and backup/restore their DVRs. If you have to purchase and replace the hard drive, then it's a defective product. Period.

Listen, I currently have both. I pay for both Tivo - and for the Verizon DVR. There's a reason for that. Because I pay for both I'm not a "fanboy" of either. Unfortunately, that does not appear to be a consistent pattern. I understand that this is a Tivo site, but undermining and discounting the severity of the Tivo issues does nobody any service - except for Tivo themselves.

Chances are low that you'll ever need to repair your Tivo? Really? What statistical analysis did you compile to come up with that one?

The cost of the Tivo should not be factored into the discussion? Why? Why should repair cost not be considered? I certainly consider the repair potential when I purchase a car. Why not with the Tivo? Especially when there are zero repair costs associated with the VZ unit.

Why should the lease vs purchase not be considered? I would agree with you EXCEPT for the fact that in order to use the device you must maintain service with Tivo - IN ADDITION TO WITH THE CABLECO. If you do not maintain that Tivo service, the device is a brick in 30 days. That doesn't happen with either your TV or your car.

My impressions and reply were based on unemotional and open considerations of the advantages and disadvantages of both and I clearly stated pro and cons of each device. To say that there is really no advantage to the VZ DVR and that the VZ unit is "junk" is honestly just not honest.

Let me be even more clear. If I lived alone (no wife and kids) I would probably stick with the VZ Moto unit. It has been more reliable. The Tivos have been of questionable reliability from the very day they were installed. One has already been replaced. The hard drive is not the failed component. I do agree with one thing - that is that most failures will be either hard drive or software failures. The problem is that the biggest issue IMHO is software - in terms of defect management and an inability for Tivo to resolve known issues.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> This is more the exception than the rule. You only hear about the problems associated with a device like a Tivo in public forums like this. You rarely see posts like "It's now three years after I bought my Tivo and I'm still not having any problems with it." Most of the problems you see are related to hardware and software issues, both of which can be easily remedied with a little research.


I would strongly disagree with this as well. There is a significant problem there, admitted to by both Verizon and TiVo, and there is no end-user applied patch -- attenuation or otherwise -- that will make it go away.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Verizon has already said they're planning using the IPTV model currently being used for VoD for other channels over the next 2 years. FiOS DVRs and STB will work fine. Current tivo boxes won't work. Tivo has not given us any reason to think existing boxes will be updated to work.

Some of us question if the change over will be as fast as Verizon plans. I can understand some customers not being willing to pay for a tivo box and pre-pay for service under those circumstances.* Particualry customers that take the time to educate themselves and are risk-adverse.*

Opening the box to upgrade the hard drive not only voids the warranty but tivo is now refusing to even service those boxes out of warranty. The logs tells tivo the drive was upgraded. Putting the old drive back may not work.

Tivo still appeals to the "geeks". The units can be expanded and have more "geek" features then cable co DVRs.

Pro-tivo posters continue to promote MSD and pre-paid discounts while ignoring discounts Verizon is giving to DVR subscribers. Compare list price (monthly service) of tivo to FiOS list price and a Verizon DVR is cheaper. Compare discounted price to discounted price and Verizon usually wins. My FiOS DVR is costing me $2 more the I'd be paying for cable card fees. You can't pay for tivo hardware, service and possible repairs for $2 /month.

Tivo appeals to customers that are willing to pay extra for extra features. FiOS DVR appeals to customers that are looking for a budget friendly solution. A solution that eliminates the issues with cable cards. Eliminates the pix elation issues that are sometimes solved with attenuators. That eliminates all repair issues.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

lew said:


> Verizon has already said they're planning using the IPTV model currently being used for VoD for other channels over the next 2 years.


Not true.



lew said:


> FiOS DVRs and STB will work fine.


Not true.

Verizon plans to use MPEG-4 AVC for VOD and IPTV in conjunction with GPON ONTs. More than 98% of Verizon's deployed STBs and DVRs do not support MPEG-4 AVC. Less than 1/3 of Verizon's customers have GPON ONTs.

This it will be done with a new line of MPEG4-capable and DCAS-capable STBs and DVRs, for which Verizon issued a multi-billion dollar RFP last year. These STBs and DVRs are still in development, and none have seen the light of day, outside of Verizon's labs.

Will Verizon eventually move to IP channel delivery? Almost certainly. Is it likely to happen in the next three years? Not a chance. If we see any IPTV channels at all in the next three years, it will be in the form of premium HD sports packages, and it will require a Motorola QIP7100/QIP7216.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

sinanju said:


> I would strongly disagree with this as well. There is a significant problem there, admitted to by both Verizon and TiVo, and there is no end-user applied patch -- attenuation or otherwise -- that will make it go away.


The attenuator eliminated the problem for me and many others.

There does seem to be more than one source cause, because attenuation works for some and not others.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I guess my information isn't current. I'd link to my "sources" but the articles are more then a year old and I'm sure your information is better

BUT some people may prefer to go with a FiOS DVR since Verizon will swap out the box if a newer one is required.

Can the TivoHD handle MPEG-4? My understanding is it's based on the same chipset as the DTV DVRs.



bkdtv said:


> Not true.
> 
> Not true.
> 
> ...


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

lew said:


> BUT some people may prefer to go with a FiOS DVR since Verizon will swap out the box if a newer one is required.


True. Required box swaps and ONT upgrades are a long way off, however.



lew said:


> Can the TivoHD handle MPEG-4? My understanding is it's based on the same chipset as the DTV DVRs.


Yes, it can.

The original TiVo Series3 design used the same decoders as the DirecTV HR20 and Dish Network ViP722 DVRs. The TivoHD design uses the same decoder found in the DirecTV HR21/HR22/HR23, Dish Network ViP612, and Motorola 7216 DVRs.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

wm2008 said:


> Your statement about the ease of fixing pixelation is frankly disengenous at best. Completely misleading and false at worse. Attenuation does not fix all the attenuation problems, and the fact is that the problem IN SOME CASES seems to be related to hot signals, yet other devices do not seem to experience those flaws. The issue is within the Tivo tuner sensitivity.


I'm not making this stuff up. This issue, as well as the fix I mentioned, has been widely documented in these forums as well as others. Tuner sensitivity and signal strength go hand in hand so having too strong a signal will definitely upset the Tivo's tuners, resulting in pixelation and other unpleasant artifacts. If the tuners are designed to handle the high signmal strength, as the Verizon DVRs appear to be, then you shouldn't experience tha pixelation you're seeing with the Tivo. Keep in mind that the Tivo HD and S3 Tivo is a generic device in that it can't be made to match the signal strength of every single provider out there. It's designed to be used with both FIOS and digital cable. As such, there are bound to be tradeoffs in the design. Adding an attenuator in the signal path is a simple and inexpensive remedy to this problem.



> I've missed many recordings on the TivoHDs. I've yet to have a single VZ Moto unit fail to record.


In the 8 or 9 years I've owned Tivos I could probably count the number of times I've missed recordings on one hand, and I've recorded literally thousands of programs over that period. Missed recordings are documented in the Recording History list (i.e., conflicts with other shows, accidental removal from the To Do List, incorrect guide data, etc.) and generally have a rational explanation as to why they were missed that are not the fault of the Tivo. There are numerous posts on the web regarding the recording inconsistencies of the Motorola DVR (again, I don't just make this stuff up) that are mostly due to glitches in the DVR itself. If you've never had issues then you're one of the lucky ones.



> Most people don't want to have to be geeks and backup/restore their DVRs. If you have to purchase and replace the hard drive, then it's a defective product. Period.


No, it's a hard drive issue and has nothing to do with the Tivo itself. Tivo doesn't make the hard drives. In fact, they probably use the same drives found in the Motorola DVRs so the odds of getting a bad one are pretty much the same for either DVR.



> Listen, I currently have both. I pay for both Tivo - and for the Verizon DVR. There's a reason for that. Because I pay for both I'm not a "fanboy" of either. Unfortunately, that does not appear to be a consistent pattern. I understand that this is a Tivo site, but undermining and discounting the severity of the Tivo issues does nobody any service - except for Tivo themselves.


The same could be said for your support of the Verizon DVR. OTOH, there have been other DVRs in the past that I liked better than Tivos. Unfortunately, they were all geared towards use with satellite providers or analog cable (UltimateTV and ReplayTV, for example) so they aren't an option when it comes to FIOS and HD recording. Tivo has better software and better features than the Verizon DVR in so may areas. If the extra features aren't important to you then I can see why you'd prefer the Verizon DVR over a Tivo. Lots of people like the idea of interfacing with VOD, PPV, and the other features offered by FIOS. None of these features appeal to me, which is why I prefer a DVR that has more mature software and rock solid stability. Obviously, YMMV.



> Chances are low that you'll ever need to repair your Tivo? Really? What statistical analysis did you compile to come up with that one?


Years of personal experience with Tivos and other DVRs. I never said they'd never need repair, just that the likelihood is no different than any other consumer electronics device, hard drive issues aside. Most Tivo owners that come here have no problem with fixing hard drive issues on their own. Anyone that wants to can get the necessary support to help them do it successfully. You don't have to be a geek to do it either. The skillset requirements are very limted at best.



> The cost of the Tivo should not be factored into the discussion? Why? Why should repair cost not be considered? I certainly consider the repair potential when I purchase a car. Why not with the Tivo? Especially when there are zero repair costs associated with the VZ unit.


Do you usually consider the repair costs when buying a TV or DVD player? Chances are you go by what's been said about the quality of the unit and how it performs or simply base your choice on the feaures it has, but then I don't know what you use as your criteria for choosing anything.

I can work with a Tivo more intimately. The Verizon DVR is just a box that won't allow me to work with it if something breaks. I can fix broken Tivos and get them up and running again in short order, as long as it's limited to a software or hard drive problem or simple hardware issue I can easily diagnose (i.e., loose internal cable, dead cooling fan, etc.). If the Verizon box breaks I have to sit around all day and wait for the Verizon tech to show up to swap out the box. Verizon doesn't have a local office where I could simply drop off the DVR and pick up a replacement. Any service requires a truck roll that results in lost time at work or lost vacation days, which probably amounts to more than what the repair costs of a Tivo would be. I don't see you factoring this into your cost equations. Your "zero-maintenance" leased box has more costs associated with it than you realize.



> Why should the lease vs purchase not be considered? I would agree with you EXCEPT for the fact that in order to use the device you must maintain service with Tivo - IN ADDITION TO WITH THE CABLECO. If you do not maintain that Tivo service, the device is a brick in 30 days. That doesn't happen with either your TV or your car.


I'm looking at the monthly cost of owning a Tivo beyond the purchase price. The upfront cost of ownership is a given so you have to decide if it's worth it to you. The monthly charge for the Tivo service combined with the cablecard rental is in the same ballpark as the monthly fee for the Verizon DVR. This argument goes round and round with no resolution. It's a personal choice, period. If you want a better quality product then you'll have to pay for it. Nobody's trying to force you to switch to a Tivo. Obviously the Verizon DVR is good enough for you so be happy with your choice. You really don't need to convince me that it's the right one for you.



> My impressions and reply were based on unemotional and open considerations of the advantages and disadvantages of both and I clearly stated pro and cons of each device. To say that there is really no advantage to the VZ DVR and that the VZ unit is "junk" is honestly just not honest.


It's my personal opinion but it's also based on a multitude of reports that back this up. Just check out the threads at the AVS Forums if you don't believe me. FYI - I said the DVR was crap and not junk.



> Let me be even more clear. If I lived alone (no wife and kids) I would probably stick with the VZ Moto unit. It has been more reliable. The Tivos have been of questionable reliability from the very day they were installed. One has already been replaced. The hard drive is not the failed component. I do agree with one thing - that is that most failures will be either hard drive or software failures. The problem is that the biggest issue IMHO is software - in terms of defect management and an inability for Tivo to resolve known issues.


Your choice. I'm not trying to dissuade you from anything you want to do. My Tivos have been rock solid for many, many years. Sorry to hear you've had issues with yours. It's a shame you're basing your opinion on the experience you had with a single Tivo whereas I've owned literally dozens of them with little or no problem whatsoever. How many Motorola QIP-6416's have you had personal experience with other than the one you currently have? I sincerely doubt that your assessment based on a single sample of each DVR comes even remotely close to the number of DVRs I've owned and operated since they were fiirst introduced.

To be fair, what I said about negative reports generally being the majority of posts you'll see in a public forum with respect to a Tivo goes both ways. The vast majority of reports I've seen regarding the Motorola QIP-6416 have been on the negative side, but then again, people that have had good luck with it rarely post their experiences. Let's just say that we both have our personal opinions on the subject and we're both happy with the choices we've made for reasons that we feel are strongly supportive of our decisions.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> There are numerous posts on the web regarding the recording inconsistencies of the Motorola DVR (again, I don't just make this stuff up) that are *mostly due to glitches in the DVR *itself. If you've never had issues then you're one of the lucky ones.


My personal experience, as well as most of the posts I've read on the web, attribute the problem to the guide data Verizon is using *and not to issues with the DVR hardware.*

That said it doesn't look like FiOS is changing providers any time soon. I'll agree better guide data is one reason I prefer my tivo.

Some people find an attenuator initially seems to work but later find the signal is too weak. The tivo box is "too picky". In this area the FiOS box is technologically superior.

Apples to Apples the FiOS DVR is less expensive. Many members of TTF think tivo is worth the extra few dollars, but very few members still insist tivo is the same price. Tivo is more expensive if you use tivo's regular monthly pricing, particularly if you have to pay for 2 cable cards. Tivo is more expensive if I let you use MSD or pre-paid discounts but compare it with current FiOS promotions. That's before we consider the upfront cost of the tivo or the cost of any repairs.


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## wm2008 (Jan 3, 2009)

mr.unnatural said:


> Adding an attenuator in the signal path is a simple and inexpensive remedy to this problem..


Not so. It is SOMETIMES a simple and inexpensive remedy. It SOMETIMES also does not work. And it SOMETIMES causes problems on other channels which previously experienced no issues. As per your own post, just check the threads about this and you'll see this fact. It serves no good purpose to discount the severity of the issue. It is obvious that other companies found a way (even before the THD was released) to avoid over-sensitivity. You would think a company like Tivo would have been able to. Further, if it really is that simple you would think that Tivo would go to the next step of sending out attenuators. They do not. Ever wonder why?



mr.unnatural said:


> In the 8 or 9 years I've owned Tivos I could probably count the number of times I've missed recordings on one hand, and I've recorded literally thousands of programs over that period. Missed recordings are documented in the Recording History list (i.e., conflicts with other shows, accidental removal from the To Do List, incorrect guide data, etc.) and generally have a rational explanation as to why they were missed that are not the fault of the Tivo. There are numerous posts on the web regarding the recording inconsistencies of the Motorola DVR (again, I don't just make this stuff up) that are mostly due to glitches in the DVR itself. If you've never had issues then you're one of the lucky ones.


You may be right. I may be extremely lucky, but it's my experience. OTOH, due to pixelation and device lockups, I can't count the number of failed recordings in the past 2 weeks on 1 hand. These would be situations where the Tivo required a hard reboot to resume operations, where the recording was so pixelated it is impossible to watch, etc. Another example: The day before yesterday during the day my wife tried using the Netflix feature on one of the THDs. It locked up. When I got home it was completely unresponsive and I needed to unplug it to restart it. This is the unit I received in exchange for the one that catastrophically failed a few months ago. During the same time period, the other THD was able to use the netflix feature. It was not an internal home cabling or Net Provider issue.



mr.unnatural said:


> None of these features appeal to me, which is why I prefer a DVR that has more mature software and rock solid stability. Obviously, YMMV.


Believe me, I'd love "rock solid stability" but in my situation obviously the Tivos have been far from rock solid. I obviously love the general UI of the Tivo. Unfortunately, I simply believe that Tivo has been negligent in device design, and incredibly lacking in support or concern for the pixelation issue. I personally believe that Tivo is so hung up on new features and gadgets that they've lost focus on delivering quality software and support. I don't care about TTG, or really even netflix. I don't care about swivel search. But I really do want to be able to watch content, and not to have to reboot. I want to have a reboot that takes less than 15 minutes and is reliable. In other words, I want the core product to work reliably. It doesn't.



mr.unnatural said:


> Years of personal experience with Tivos and other DVRs. I never said they'd never need repair, just that the likelihood is no different than any other consumer electronics device, hard drive issues aside. Most Tivo owners that come here have no problem with fixing hard drive issues on their own. Anyone that wants to can get the necessary support to help them do it successfully. You don't have to be a geek to do it either. The skillset requirements are very limted at best.


And? I really don't want to have to work on a device. I want it to work. I don't have to repair any of the rest of my AV system? Why should I do so for Tivo? Furthermore, it changes nothing. With the VZ unit you have to repair nothing. It's all taken care of. And no warranty being voided (which opening the case DOES void your Tivo warranty BTW).



mr.unnatural said:


> Do you usually consider the repair costs when buying a TV or DVD player? Chances are you go by what's been said about the quality of the unit and how it performs or simply base your choice on the feaures it has, but then I don't know what you use as your criteria for choosing anything.


Well, I consider the implications of overall quality and reliability. The difference is that with those other devices I'm not paying a monthly fee just to use the device no matter what. If I stop paying Tivo, it turns into a brick. Not so with the other devices. As a matter of fact, not so with ANY other device I own except perhaps cell phones. So yes, I use multiple variables including what is said about quality. That's why I take exception with people discounting very real issues with Tivo quality and not owning up to the fact that Tivo has abandoned some customers.



mr.unnatural said:


> I can work with a Tivo more intimately. The Verizon DVR is just a box that won't allow me to work with it if something breaks. I can fix broken Tivos and get them up and running again in short order, as long as it's limited to a software or hard drive problem or simple hardware issue I can easily diagnose (i.e., loose internal cable, dead cooling fan, etc.). If the Verizon box breaks I have to sit around all day and wait for the Verizon tech to show up to swap out the box. Verizon doesn't have a local office where I could simply drop off the DVR and pick up a replacement. Any service requires a truck roll that results in lost time at work or lost vacation days, which probably amounts to more than what the repair costs of a Tivo would be. I don't see you factoring this into your cost equations. Your "zero-maintenance" leased box has more costs associated with it than you realize.


Wrong again. There are zero extra costs for me. The appts can be scheduled for the weekend, or my wife or somebody else can be there. No cost. Not even shipping. I wish there were a local VZ presence, but honestly it's not that big of a deal. There sure isn't a local Tivo presence either.



mr.unnatural said:


> I'm looking at the monthly cost of owning a Tivo beyond the purchase price. The upfront cost of ownership is a given so you have to decide if it's worth it to you. The monthly charge for the Tivo service combined with the cablecard rental is in the same ballpark as the monthly fee for the Verizon DVR.


And yet another incorrect statement. For those of us not grandfathered into a previous "lifetime" agreement, the Tivo cost added to the cablecard cost is significantly more than the VZ DVR cost - period. In no way can you say it isn't. Furthermore, the upfront cost MUST be considered. Anybody not considering that is simply emotionally invested in Tivo and not doing a true comparison. For YOU it may be OK to forget about the cost, but not including it in an unbiased cost comparison is not honest.



mr.unnatural said:


> If you want a better quality product then you'll have to pay for it. Nobody's trying to force you to switch to a Tivo. Obviously the Verizon DVR is good enough for you so be happy with your choice. You really don't need to convince me that it's the right one for you.


Well, I have both Tivo HDs and VZ Moto units. I'm more than willing (as evidenced by the fact that I have them) to pay for a "better quality product". Unfortunately, in my situation that's not what I have - speaking of the Tivos. I simply do not perceive them to be of acceptable quality - and furthermore I perceive their support to be completely unacceptable.



mr.unnatural said:


> Your choice. I'm not trying to dissuade you from anything you want to do. My Tivos have been rock solid for many, many years. Sorry to hear you've had issues with yours. It's a shame you're basing your opinion on the experience you had with a single Tivo whereas I've owned literally dozens of them with little or no problem whatsoever. How many Motorola QIP-6416's have you had personal experience with other than the one you currently have? I sincerely doubt that your assessment based on a single sample of each DVR comes even remotely close to the number of DVRs I've owned and operated since they were fiirst introduced..


Poor assumptions on your part. I'm basing my opinions on the 3 THDs I have had - not 1. I'm basing it on the 3 VZ DRVs I've had. Not 1. Furthermore, beyond those 6 units I have had 17 DVRs in the past not including Windows/PC based units. I think that's enough to have an educated opinion.



mr.unnatural said:


> Let's just say that we both have our personal opinions on the subject and we're both happy with the choices we've made for reasons that we feel are strongly supportive of our decisions.


That's the final issue. I truly believe that both units have the strengths and weaknesses. However on this site some people are unwilling to accept the reality that Tivo is not what it was, and that there are issues that should be faced head on and that Tivo should be held accountable. Demeaning the issues serves nobody except those having a vested financial interest in Tivo. My choices included both Tivo and VZ units. I am not happy with the choices I've made. I am not strongly supportive of the decisions I've made. That's why I'm trying to provide "balanced" feedback rather than what I perceive to be the heavily Tivo-favored rose colored glasses that some people insist on wearing. If you carefully read my initial "unbiased" response you'll see that I did NOT say that the Tivo was junk - OR crap. Just that they are both legitimate choices - both of which having measurable and definitive problems.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

bkdtv said:


> The attenuator eliminated the problem for me and many others.
> 
> There does seem to be more than one source cause, because attenuation works for some and not others.


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think that its great that some enjoy apparently complete relief from the issue by applying attenuation, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't there on channels they don't watch.

I can tell you for a fact that Verizon knows about and will freely admit that there is a problem not completely fixed by attenuation. I can also tell you that TiVo knows there is a problem not completely fixed by attenuation.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

wm2008 said:


> Just that they are both legitimate choices - both of which having measurable and definitive problems.


At least on that point we can agree. I'll concede that both DVRs have issues, but the issues you've described are generally limited to a (relatively) small number of Tivo owners. Like I said, you're only going hear people gripe about their problems in an open forum. I'd wager that the number of people *****ing about Tivo issues compares favorably to the number of problems people experience with other mainstream consumer electronics.



> Further, if it really is that simple you would think that Tivo would go to the next step of sending out attenuators. They do not. Ever wonder why?


Nope, because it's not Tivo's responsibility to fix problems inherent with the FIOS signal. If it was a DirecTivo then we'd be talking an entirely different ballgame since DirecTV contracted with Tivo to build a DVR to work with their system. Verizon has no such agreement with Tivo. If you decide to use it with FIOS then you're pretty much on your own to get it working right. I don't experience the problems of pixelation that many people report and I've been on FIOS for almost two years now. I've never had the need to install an attenuator.

The basic Tivo design is sound and has a proven track record, not to mention a huge loyal fanbase, regardless of what your opinion or personal experience is. You've obviously been stuck with a few bad Tivos. That doesn't mean the overall design is flawed. It basically falls under the category of "s**t happens". Sucks to be you.

As for your "unbiased" opinion, all I'm hearing about is the bad experiences you had with a few lemons. It appears that you've never had the truly pleasurable experience of owning a properly functioning Tivo. As such, your opinions are extremely biased and negative towards Tivos.

Here's a simple comparison between a Tivo and the Verizon DVR that I'm pretty sure you can grasp (it's also the primary reason I dismissed it from consideration). The Motorola QIP-6416 simply has too small of a hard drive for serious HD recording. That fact alone takes it out of the running for the vast majority of people that would rather own a Tivo. Granted, the current basic Tivo HD has about the same recording capacity, but that's easy enough to remedy and not all that expensive with today's hard drive prices. A 500GB hard drive will only cost you about $60 and yield a considerable increase in recording capacity (about 63 total HD hours, IIRC).

For grins and giggles, let's get two Tivo HDs with lifetime service and see what it looks like.

Tivo HD initial cost = $250 x 2 = $500 (current price on Amazon.com w/free shipping)

Lifetime service = $399 for 1st Tivo and $299 for 2nd Tivo = $698.

Total cost of two Tivo HDs w/lifetime service = $1198

Total cost of two Tivo HDs w/Tivo service averaged over four years = $24.96 per month total.

Total monthly cost of Tivos + four S-cablecards @ $3.99 each = $40.92 per month (M-cards may not be available in all areas, which is why I'm not pricing them here. If you have access to M-cards then the cablecard fee will be cut almost in half).

Consider that Tivos with lifetime service will fetch approximately 40-50% of their original cost you're looking at a net return of around $479 (based on a 40% resale value), for an average monthly reduction of about $10. This would result in the actual cost of a Tivo to be around $31 per month over four years. Compare that with $31.98 for two Verizon HD DVRs and you'll see a net savings of about $1 per month over a 4-year time span. This does not take into account increases in the monthly fees for the Verizon HD DVR over that period, and we all know that TV providers are notorious for jacking up their fees at least once every couple of years. The initial investment in the Tivo HDs and the lifetime service is a done deal so the only thing you could expect to increase in cost would be the cablecards (again, this is a provider issue). Note that if you are able to get a single M-card your monthly fees will be reduced further still so you're looking at a potential increase in savings with the Tivo HDs.

FYI - the total monthly cost I pay for two S3 Tivos is $36.77. That's only $4.79 more per month than two Verizon HD DVRs (and well worth the extra cost, IMHO). That doesn't take into account any funds I recover if and when I decide to sell them at a later date. I fully expect them to live to a ripe old age. I have both of them upgraded with larger hard drives for a combined capacity of around 150 HD hours or roughly the equivalent of 7-1/2 Motorola DVRs. Factor that into your cost analysis and you'll finally realize the full potential cost savings of owning a Tivo vs. a Verizon DVR.

Since most Tivos (yours excluded) should last at least four years, this is a pretty accurate cost estimate of the true cost of ownership of two Tivo HDs. If they last longer than four years (and they generally should) then the monthly costs decrease with every additional month you keep them in service.

Now, of course, if you are one of the unfortunate few that gets saddled with a lemon, such as our esteemed friend here, these numbers go right out the window.

I haven't included any costs associated with repairs because it's a completely ludicrous argument, at least for most of us. If you're that insecure about owning a Tivo, get a service contract through Best Buy or Circuit City for the peace of mind you so obviously need. Extended warranties were introduced with people like you in mind.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

wm2008 said:


> For those of us not grandfathered into a previous "lifetime" agreement, the Tivo cost added to the cablecard cost is significantly more than the VZ DVR cost - period. In no way can you say it isn't.


One MCARD ($3.99) + monthly on the TivoHD ($12.99) = $16.98, plus whatever tax you pay Verizon on the CableCard. The base Verizon DVR is $15.99/mo before federal, state, and local taxes are applied. In most states, the after-tax cost is about the same; in other states, the after-tax cost of the Verizon DVR is higher.

If you pay prepay $129/yr instead of $12.99/mo ($155.88 for a year) for TiVo service, then the yearly cost of the TiVo will be less, given the returns currently available in the market. A year ago might have been different.

The combined federal, state, and local taxes in my area are about as low as you'll find anywhere, but here are a few comparison numbers:

Verizon DVR ($17.27/mo) = *$207.28/yr*
Verizon MRDVR ($21.59/mo) = *$259.08/yr*
TiVo monthly ($12.99/mo) + M-CARD ($4.31/mo) = $17.30/mo = *$207.60/yr*
TiVo prepaid yearly ($129/yr) + M-CARD ($4.31/mo) = *$180.72/yr*



wm2008 said:


> Furthermore, the upfront cost MUST be considered. Anybody not considering that is simply emotionally invested in Tivo and not doing a true comparison. For YOU it may be OK to forget about the cost, but not including it in an unbiased cost comparison is not honest.


Since the monthly costs are comparable after accounting for taxes, the upfront cost is the only cost. The hardware is $250 shipped at Amazon, minus whatever you can sell it for when you're done with it.

Superior guide data (and therefore superior reliability), superior functionality, with the ability to expand storage is easily worth $250 to me (assuming I never sell it). It may not be worth it to you, but I suspect your opinion is biased since the TiVo just doesn't seem to work for you.



sinanju said:


> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think that its great that some enjoy apparently complete relief from the issue by applying attenuation, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't there on channels they don't watch.


There is no pixelization (or RS Uncorrected errors) on *any* local or cable channnel on FiOS in my home. Better?

I don't have any sport subscriptions or international channels, so I can't speak to those.



wm2008 said:


> It serves no good purpose to discount the severity of the issue. It is obvious that other companies found a way (even before the THD was released) to avoid over-sensitivity. You would think a company like Tivo would have been able to. Further, if it really is that simple you would think that Tivo would go to the next step of sending out attenuators. They do not. Ever wonder why?


Nor does it serve any "good purpose" to exaggerate the issue. Many, if not most, have no pixelization on any channel they watch. If everyone bothered to test like me, I suspect many would have no problems on any local or cable channel.



wm2008 said:


> You may be right. I may be extremely lucky, but it's my experience. OTOH, due to pixelation and device lockups, I can't count the number of failed recordings in the past 2 weeks on 1 hand.


Most shows are now into the repeat season.

In my first year of using the Verizon DVR, I had 60-70 missed series recordings from just: ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, FX, SCIFI, TNT, and AMC. The DVR would miss 10-20% of the episodes for shows like House and Heroes. It would almost always miss an episode of a network program when there were two new episodes showing back to back. Reliability was much worse on cable networks.

You also have the Verizon DVR recording repeats as new episodes on programs that are improperly flagged. My Verizon DVR would record every episode (and reairings) of certain shows from SciFi and HBO. With just 160GB, it would fill up quickly on repeats, causing other new recordings to be deleted. If you add in the number of correctly recorded new episodes that were deleted early to limited capacity and the recording of repeats, then my Verizon DVR missed far more than 60-70 episodes in that year.

Look at DSLReports or forums.verizon.com and you'll see *many* report the same. Faulty guide data on the Motorola boxes is the #1 complaint on those forums.



wm2008 said:


> Believe me, I'd love "rock solid stability" but in my situation obviously the Tivos have been far from rock solid. I obviously love the general UI of the Tivo.


It can't be said enough, but your situation is not typical. Even the minority of customers that do experience pixelization after an attenuator only do so intermittently on some channels, which they may or may not watch. I don't think I have to go out on a limb to say that pixelization sufficient enough to crash a TiVo is quite rare.

There are clearly some issues with your installation, be it your ONT / splitters / cabling / connectors / wall plates, etc. I know you've tried an attenuator. Have you also tried unplugging Verizon's MoCA router and adding a low pass filter after the ONT and/or before the TiVo?



wm2008 said:


> If I stop paying Tivo, it turns into a brick. Not so with the other devices. As a matter of fact, not so with ANY other device I own except perhaps cell phones.


You can still play your recordings and watch live TV channels with pause and instant replay, so a TiVo is not entirely a brick. It does become useless as a DVR though, since you can't record future programs without a subscription.



wm2008 said:


> Wrong again. There are zero extra costs for me. The appts can be scheduled for the weekend, or my wife or somebody else can be there. No cost. Not even shipping. I wish there were a local VZ presence, but honestly it's not that big of a deal. There sure isn't a local Tivo presence either.


If you or your wife value your time, there is always a cost associated with any kind of installation. It may not be a direct monetary cost, but it's an opportunity cost. I assume you place some value on your wife's time.


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## wm2008 (Jan 3, 2009)

There is so much disinformation in the above post I don't know where to begin. However...

Cost: Just as with prepaying, etc, those of us on Verizon ALSO get discounts for DVRs. I do not pay $15.99 for my DVR. Don't know about you. The Tivo is essentially worthless as far as selling it. There is probably some value, but not that much. I'm not sure exactly how you'd like to manipulate the numbers, but you also need to consider those of us not having M-cards, so the cablecard cost is twice that amount per unit. And swapping the cards (beyond the nightmare of actually doing it) means a service call from Verizon. Not sure what exactly you mean by the "returns available in the market"

Superior guide data is NOT "therefore" superior reliability. No way, no how hoss. I'd be happier with being able to manually set recordings using channel and time and still know that they'll work rather than a fancy guide that records garbage.

My opinion is NOT biased when I started this. I clearly stated the advantage of being able to add storage, and it was clearly worth it to me. I also obviously felt that (assuming they work) the Tivo value proposition was worth more money. I paid it. It just needs to work. 

I'm quite happy that you don't experience pixelation. Perhaps we all need to watch TV at your home.

I'm a bit confused as to how I'm "exaggerating the issue". I can't watch TV on some channels. Live or recorded. Tivo support has been worthless. The VZ DVR has experienced Zero problems. One of my 2 Tivos has already completely died and required replacement. Tons of other people are complaining about this. Tivo does nothing to support or fix the issue. Those are frankly facts.

I'm guessing that you think the Tivo should only work on first runs, and since the "repeat season" is here it's OK to fail?

I didn't say that the pixelation was causing the crashes. Those are DIFFERENT issues - more problems. Software bugs which require attention.

If you discontinue service, even the pause only has a limited window. And after 30 days the unit stops - according to other threads on this site. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. It's essentially worthless without a subscription. Not even manual recording works. Since it would have zero channel guide info, it would be less functional than a STB.

I do value my wife's time - opportunity time works two ways. My time to fix Tivo problems should then ALSO be calculated. Perhaps at my going rate? So I'll just use my salary divided by time to determine the rate? Rest assured - it's expensive.

BTW, my cable plant is flawless. All commercial grade RG6. No snakes den of wiring here. All brand new ports. AND remember - when I swap the VZ DVR with the Tivos between each other, the problems follow the Tivos. Zero issues with the VZ unit.

I'm just so tired of all the Tivo folks making excuses for a problem that is clearly a Tivo design issue. It seems that no matter what Tivo does, people will suck it up and just tell people that a little misery is worth the great and wonderful features.


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## wm2008 (Jan 3, 2009)

For Mr Unnatural, my only response is that we will have to agree to disagree. However, a few corrections.

I absolutely agree that the Tivo HD UI is far superior to anything else out there. I love the features, and the expandability. HOWEVER, it's still a consumer electronics device. It should be expected to be reliable and well performing.

The Tivo should be resilient enough to deal with signal variation. I've said it before and I'll say it again. You (and most certainly Tivo) need to understand that without VZ and Comcast for example, Tivo is a dead hunk of junk. It is worthless. For Tivo (a blip on the financial picture of VZ) to expect VZ to redesign their networks is the height of hypocrisy. It is ludicrous. It is stupid. If Tivo ticks off VZ enough, VZ can simply design Tivo functionality out of existence on their network. They can support cablecard (which they are not legally required to do at this time) while at the same time making things incredibly difficult for Tivo. We all know that's true. So, for Tivo to fail at this juncture simply positions them in a very very bad spot. 

Maybe you've missed it, but to my knowledge new Tivo owners who now purchase Lifetime cannot transfer the lifetime to a new unit. My understanding is that it's a non-transferable service. It seems clearly spelled out. So I wouldn't make much of that value. 

I also would stop assuming that you understand my perspective when it comes to dealing with these devices. the point is that the devices should not require opening up the box and messing with them. We're way beyond that. Unfortunately it appears Tivo requires such manipulation.

What I fail to understand here is how people cannot grasp that there are those of us who are just finally fed up with the hypocrisy and BS coming from Tivo - combined with a measurable reduction in quality and support. Some of us are unbiased enough to understand that both Tivo and VZ or Comcast have good devices. And that Tivo had better start stepping up if they don't want to be history. This game will be won or lost based on the masses - and the masses just don't want to deal with this crap. They want it to work. The fact that Moto can somehow avoid the pixelation issue is proof positive that Tivo could as well.

The reason they don't send attenuators out is because they're trying to avoid a larger PR mess as a result of their poor tuner design. Period.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Never mind


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The only disinformation that's being posted is the drivel you're writing. You just can't seem to admit it when someone else is presenting truthful information. We're providing the actual facts and figures while you're just talking out of your arse. You got stuck with a couple of bad Tivos and you're bitter as heck about it. We get that (in fact, we got that a couple of dozen posts ago). The Tivos you own may be hunks of junk but, for the rest of us, they're far superior DVRs than the Motorola box. It's not just my opinion but one that's widely held by thousands of other Tivo owners, as evidenced by the huge membership at this forum. I daresay there are a considerable number of them that are former dissatisfied QIP-6416 users, as evidenced by the number of negative posts I've read on the subject in these forums alone.

My price comparison was based on both the Verizon DVR and a Tivo HD of the same capacity. I never said you needed to open the box but rather you had the option to do so if you choose. The Moto box gives you no such option. You seem to delight in putting words into other people's mouths to suit your own dismal argument. Either that or you have a severe reading comprehension disability.

Your assessments and conclusions are so far off the mark it's laughable. You say the Tivo has no value? You obviously haven't checked the current going rate for Hi-Def Tivos on ebay. Granted, older series 1 and 2 Tivos don't garner the prices that Tivo sellers would like to see, but they're all standard def models and few people are interested in them since it's quickly becoming a Hi-Def world. A used S3 is still fetching $300 or more on average. Considering you can buy a new Tivo HD for less, that's quite remarkable. 

The issue with attenuators is a Verizon problem yet you keep whining that Tivo is responsible for fixing it. Most people, myself included, never have the pixelation problem so there's nothing to fix, period. Get a life, man (not to mention better arguments)! Your bitterness about Tivos has severely compromised your perspective to the point where nobody can take you seriously. You've made it perfectly clear you don't like Tivos, so how could anyone possibly take your posts as being unbiased? At least I admitted right off the bat that I didn't like the Verizon DVR and provided my rationale for reaching that conclusion.

The bottom line is that when it comes to recording HD content from FIOS, you basically have but two choices - a series 3 Tivo/Tivo HD or a Motorola QIP-6416 HD DVR. Like most people here, I prefer the Tivo whereas you like the QIP-6416. Good on you, buddy! Verizon has to have someone to rent all those POS boxes to, so knock yourself out.

The actual costs of each DVR have been provided so you can make a fair evaluation of the overall costs. My assessment was based on the rates published by Verizon on their website, which happen to be the same anywhere in the country AFAIK. Special deals of any kind are generally short lived and not the norm, making them entirely moot when calculating the actual cost of ownership or leasing. You continually argue that just because you get some ridiculous deal for your Verizon DVR that it should be somehow used as the baseline by which we should establish our price comparison rather than the actual costs most of us pay. I'm going to take a wild guess here and assume you didn't major in economics. If you can point me to the Verizon pricing page that tells me where I can get those kind of deals then I might consider getting one (just kidding).

That's it. I'm done. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go watch a few shows I have recorded on my Tivo.:up::up::up::up:


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wm2008 said:


> Not so. It is SOMETIMES a simple and inexpensive remedy. It SOMETIMES also does not work. And it SOMETIMES causes problems on other channels which previously experienced no issues.


That is because the problem is usually not high levels, or not entirely so, and even when it is, it may not be a simple level problem. It is no surprise a fix which does not address the root cause of a problem may stand a less than stellar chance of alleviating the issue.



wm2008 said:


> It is obvious that other companies found a way (even before the THD was released) to avoid over-sensitivity.


Using a cheap, less sensitive receiver will most certainly prevent problems from signal levels that are too high, and if one can generally be assured of high levels (which is the case with an ONT), then one can not only get away with using a cheaper, less sensitive receiver, one is actually compelled by both engineering and financial considerations to do so. If one must deal with a wide array of signal levels, however, including most often comparatively low levels, then one must design with a comparatively sensitive (and expensive) receiver. A more sensitive receiver in general also means one more prone to distortion products from signal high levels, especially out of band signals.



wm2008 said:


> You would think a company like Tivo would have been able to. Further, if it really is that simple you would think that Tivo would go to the next step of sending out attenuators. They do not. Ever wonder why?


Why should they? Signal levels falling outside the design parameters of the unit are not really TiVo's responsibility, and since an attenuator does not usually address all the root causes of the problem (even if it may sometimes mask it), what would be the point in sending one?



wm2008 said:


> Another example: The day before yesterday during the day my wife tried using the Netflix feature on one of the THDs. It locked up. When I got home it was completely unresponsive and I needed to unplug it to restart it.


There is a known issue with these very symptoms. TiVo is working on it. Once resolved there is a very good chance you will not see it again. How well is NetFlix working on the FIOS DVR?



wm2008 said:


> This is the unit I received in exchange for the one that catastrophically failed a few months ago. During the same time period, the other THD was able to use the netflix feature. It was not an internal home cabling or Net Provider issue.


That's a neat trick. NetFlix was only deployed in the middle of December. How did you watch NetFlix, "a few months ago"?



wm2008 said:


> Believe me, I'd love "rock solid stability" but in my situation obviously the Tivos have been far from rock solid.


While not completely problem free - I had one S3 fail under warranty and there have been a few software issues along the way, some of which have not yet been addressed (although most have), my S3 and THD TiVos positively blow the doors off the Pace, Zenith, and Scientific Atlanta STBs and DVRs they replaced when it comes to stability, and its features make those units look just plain silly. One of the outright worst pieces of offal it has ever been my distinct displeasure with which to deal was the Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR. It was doing good if it failed to record programs less than 20% of the time. Of course I've lost the odd recording during power outages and it's not too uncommon for something to come on at a time different than in the schedule for whatever reason. TNTHD is also having some sort of problem locally (I'm not the only one complaining, nor are TiVos the only devices affected), so I'm missing quite a few recordings on that channel, but other than things of that nature, it's been a long time since one of my TiVos has missed a recording.



wm2008 said:


> I obviously love the general UI of the Tivo. Unfortunately, I simply believe that Tivo has been negligent in device design


What would you have done differently, especially considering the fact less than 10% of TiVo subs are on FIOS?



wm2008 said:


> and incredibly lacking in support or concern for the pixelation issue.


However much they may be personally concerned, why should they expend efforts and resources to handle out-of-spec signals?



wm2008 said:


> I personally believe that Tivo is so hung up on new features and gadgets that they've lost focus on delivering quality software and support.


I will most certainly agree TiVo's technical support is very poor, but then it's about average for most industries today. Aside from that, what evidence do you have to support this claim?



wm2008 said:


> I don't care about TTG, or really even netflix. I don't care about swivel search.


Neither do I, although I do use TTCB extensively. Indeed, a large fraction of what I watch comes off the video server.



wm2008 said:


> But I really do want to be able to watch content, and not to have to reboot.


An occasional reboot of any computer system is inevitable. We have dedicated controllers running HP-UX that cost several thousand dollars, and the manufacturer strongly suggests a reboot at least every 6 months and definitely no less than once a year. I reboot my TiVos somewhat more often than that, but not much more than once a month, in general. Of course, every major upgrade induces a reboot, and those come along every 3 or 4 months. The Pace STB (attached to my S1 TiVo) would reboot itself around 02:00 every two or three weeks without my knowing it. Since after reboot it would shut down, I would often wind up with 2 or 3 days worth of missed recordings. The PC I had on my desk prior to this one had to be rebooted at least once daily.



wm2008 said:


> I want to have a reboot that takes less than 15 minutes


I just rebooted one of my S3 TiVos: 5 Minutes 55 Seconds. My TiVo HD: 6 Minutes 36 Seconds. That's *MUCH* less than 15 minutes. The processor on the TiVo is certainly no racehorse, it's true, and indeed I would like both a faster processor and a much faster LAN interface, but it would also cost more - a price I am willing to pay. Are you? Even so, my video server is running on a 4GHz 64 bit dual core processor with 4G of RAM, and it takes several minutes to boot, as well, if it is not running a fsck on one of the drive systems. If it is running an fsck on the RAID array, it can take hours to boot.



wm2008 said:


> and is reliable.


The kernel and root partitions are both read-only. Unless one burns the OS to ROM (goodbye, upgrades), there is no better way to insure a reliable boot and a long term stable OS.



wm2008 said:


> In other words, I want the core product to work reliably. It doesn't.


I and hundreds of thousands of other TIVo owners are not having any great stability issues with our TiVos.



wm2008 said:


> I don't have to repair any of the rest of my AV system?


You will, eventually. If your A/V system has a hard drive, there's a good chance it will be sooner, rather than later, but either way it will eventually fail. I've had several AV receivers, amplifiers, and other components fail. I'm staring right now at a 440Watt amplifier which failed three times. The third time, instead of repairing it, I took it offline, and now it sits as a source of spares for its twin. Hard drives are frail, period. They are a great deal less frail than they used to be, but they are still fairly failure prone. You should have to go through the night mare I've been through the last few weeks with my RAID array. For a while I was suffering as many as two or three hard drive failures *A DAY*. With 5TB of data at stake - some of it hypercritical, I was chewing my fingernails off back to my elbow.



wm2008 said:


> Why should I do so for Tivo? Furthermore, it changes nothing. With the VZ unit you have to repair nothing. It's all taken care of.


You mean you have paid for its repair. Your lease dollars pay for the repair of the Verizon owned DVR. It's not really any different than paying for an extended warranty, except in this case you have no option except to pay for the warranty.



wm2008 said:


> And no warranty being voided (which opening the case DOES void your Tivo warranty BTW).


Opening the case on the Verizon DVR could get you sued. There is not one single electronic device in my house I cannot open should I so choose, and few that I have not. The TiVos are no exception.



wm2008 said:


> Well, I consider the implications of overall quality and reliability. The difference is that with those other devices I'm not paying a monthly fee just to use the device no matter what. If I stop paying Tivo, it turns into a brick. Not so with the other devices. As a matter of fact, not so with ANY other device I own except perhaps cell phones.


So I take it your air conditioner is wind-powered? Your TV and refrigerator are solar powered? You don't have a regular landline phone? Where do you get free gas and oil for your car? How are you getting all the advertisers to refund you the thousands of dollars of surcharges they place on the everyday items you purchase for the priviledge of watching TV, whether or not you do? Oh, and how did you get Verizon to give you free service?



wm2008 said:


> Wrong again. There are zero extra costs for me. The appts can be scheduled for the weekend


'Strange. Most people consider their free time to be far more valuable than their working time. If nothing else, you could have been making some money on the side rather than sitting around waiting for a tech to show up.



wm2008 said:


> or my wife or somebody else can be there.


So you consider your wife's time to be worthless? I suspect if you ask her she would have a *very* different opinion. Someone else? Who else would you have whose time is worthless? Are you a slave owner?



wm2008 said:


> No cost. Not even shipping.


You are deluding yourself. Assuming Verizon doesn't charge for the service call (many CATV companies do), they still load the cost of your monthly bill with the amount it costs on average per customer to support service calls - whether you ever call in a service call or not.



wm2008 said:


> I am not strongly supportive of the decisions I've made. That's why I'm trying to provide "balanced" feedback rather than what I perceive to be the heavily Tivo-favored rose colored glasses that some people insist on wearing.


I have nearly zero problems with my TiVos, fewer problems than I have had with any similarly sophisticated consumer devices, and vastly fewer problems than I had with leased STBs and DVRs. How is that "rose colored glasses"? My Tivos sit on their shelves and do their thing 24 x 7, while the workstation at which I am now typing has a failed hard drive and several software issues. The workstation this one replaced locked up almost daily. The video server is still giving me some real problems, although nothing like the massive problems over the Christmas holidays. The PC in the livingroom is having a mild heart seizure every couple of days. The backup server fried its motherboard and took the system power supply with it, at a time when the RAID array was also offline (that gave *me* a heart seizure). I have a skylight that's leaking, a car that starting to give me some heartache, and a couple of trees that are threatening to fall and cave in my roof.

Stuff happens, including to TiVos, but I would be positively thrilled if everything gave me as few problems as my TiVos have.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wm2008 said:


> The Tivo should be resilient enough to deal with signal variation.


It's easy to say what "should be" when one hasn't the faintest clue of what they speak.



wm2008 said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again. You (and most certainly Tivo) need to understand that without VZ and Comcast for example, Tivo is a dead hunk of junk.


Comcast, Time Warner, and Cox subscribers are not reporting the problems Verizon users are. Those 3 CATV companies service more than 90% of TiVo owners. FIOS constitutes less than 5%. Adding devices to a home FIOS systems which brings the FIOS signals within industry standard specifications is not difficult, but it is also not TiVo's responsibility, nor is it their responsibility to design a unit which would work with such signals, especially since to do so would cause significant problems with many, perhaps even a majority of other subscribers.



wm2008 said:


> For Tivo (a blip on the financial picture of VZ) to expect VZ to redesign their networks is the height of hypocrisy.


That's got to be one of the silliest statements I have ever seen. TiVo has little reason to do anything but expect service providers to deliver industry standard signals. That Verizon does not is in no way TiVo's fault, and it cetainly is not hypocritical.

The statement is even sillier when one considers the resolution does not require Verizon to do anything with their network.



wm2008 said:


> It is ludicrous. It is stupid. If Tivo ticks off VZ enough, VZ can simply design Tivo functionality out of existence on their network.


Again, anything is easy when one hasn't the faintest clue of what one speaks.



wm2008 said:


> I also would stop assuming that you understand my perspective when it comes to dealing with these devices. the point is that the devices should not require opening up the box and messing with them. We're way beyond that. Unfortunately it appears Tivo requires such manipulation.


There are very few sophisticated consumer electronics devices that do not require internal work to operate acceptably. Delightfully, the TiVos are no exception. Unacceptably, the Verizon and other leased DVR are also no exception, but one is proscribed from so doing.



wm2008 said:


> The fact that Moto can somehow avoid the pixelation issue is proof positive that Tivo could as well.


I guess it is true ignorance is bliss. When I was in college, I drove a used Chevrolet Vega. The driver's door would not open (I crawled in through the always open window like a NASCAR driver). The passenger door would not remain shut, and had to be held by someone - myself or a passenger - during any left hand turn. It drank oil like a wino drinks cheap beer. I heaped more abuse and punishment on that vehicle than most Hummer enthusiasts. Nowadays I drive a Camaro convertible. It could never take the abuse the Vega did. By your logic, the Vega was the superior vehicle. Using a cheaper, less sensitive receiver might well alleviate some of the issues FIOS subscribers are seeing. Doing so masks the fact the FIOS signals are out of spec. It also would result in more problems for non-FIOS users.



wm2008 said:


> The reason they don't send attenuators out is because they're trying to avoid a larger PR mess as a result of their poor tuner design. Period.


What tuners have you designed? The reason the Tivo tends to have problems with the FIOS signal is that it employs a superior, more expensive, more sensitive tuner than the Motorola. All else being equal, a tuner with a -10 dB noise figure will experience 20 dB more 3rd order distortion at a given signal level than one with a 0dB noise figure. 'Ditto for an increased number of carriers. Out of band carriers, particularly above-band carriers can do a real number on any receiver not designed to reject them.


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## wm2008 (Jan 3, 2009)

Wow - more "drivel" to use your own language.

I'll say it again for the record - BOTH units have their advantages. I simply refuse to go with the Tivo fanboy (mr unnatural for example) perspective that everything other than Tivo is "crap" or "junk", or that Tivos are perfect.

Rather than quoting the venomous and ridiculous posts from Mr Unnatural and lhorer above, I'll simply respond separately here to some of the points.

1) I never said I watched Netflix "months ago". Please get a DVD set on the english language. I simply specified that the issues I noted in those cases were purely Tivo issues - and clarified that they were not related to some of the other many known bugs. I see you're trying to put words in so many other people mouths. 

2) You clearly have no conception of engineering. Failure modes - and how devices respond to various failure modes - are critical parts of engineering. As are C&E matrices, FMEAS, etc. I clearly know of what I talk. I personally believe that you're so in love with your units that you simply attack anyone who takes issue with a known, legitimate issue. You should be ashamed of your behavior. You undermine getting issues resolved for paying customers by the company who created them.

3) The SNR of "31" is NOT an "industry standard". Please show that to me and the rest of the work, would you? Please don't just make crap up - because that's exactly what you're doing. And VZ is the fastest growing provider in the US - bar none. If you think it's good business to ignore that market segment, I suppose you're not in business. For example, in this region VZ can't keep up with conversions to their service from Comcast. Comcast here is bleeding massively with sub loss. 

4) Exactly what other "consumer devices" require "internal work to operate acceptably"? You've got to be kidding. Let's see, TVs? No. DVD players? No. AV receivers? No. PCs? Not for some time now. PDAs? Nope. Exactly what planet are you living on? This isn't 1990. 

5) Your description of a "superior tuner" is hilarious. So a tuner that is not usable in a particular failure mode is superior than a unit that handles a failure mode without inconveniencing the user? Exactly what engineering program did you go through? Further, your comparison to a Vega and a Camaro bears no relevance on reality. I won't even go there. If both of those cars were produced brand new today and other factors were considered we could talk about it, but as it is it is simply another demonstration that you fail to understand the most basic principles of engineering design and quality.

For lhorer...

1) Please remember that the "cheaper" moto unit DOES deal with a wider range of signals successfully and that the Tivo unit fails to do so. This is the exact problem. 

2) The "design specs of the unit" are exactly the problem. Tivo insists that the attenuators solve the problem completely - as do some fanboys on this site. As you note, they do not. However, if Tivo is going to not be complete hypocrits, send out the few dollars worth of attenuators. Otherwise the message from Tivo is that they don't support the units on Verizon - period. All the while that they complain when Verizon doesn't want to support the units. So they manufacture a product, they sell it, they get the money, and then then tell VZ to support it? Great model while it lasts. Not exactly a formula for success. Remember - the signals are out of TIVO specs. Not VZ specs. The initial 610 ONTs did have a problem, but the 611s and 612s are not shown to be "out of spec". There is no IEEE, FCC or any other governing body "spec" of SNR on a digital content network - unless you know something different....

3) I'm also in IT. We have literally tens of millions of dollars of enterprise equipment. In particular with the device is a "closed" system, they really don't require rebooting and if you're an IT professional you also must recognize that every time you reboot the potential for hw failure increases during that activity. We've got Solaris, 5250, AIX, HPUX, and Windows systems in addition to Cisco, Avaya, etc. The network switch gear is RARELY rebooted. The Solaris is RARELY rebooted. Some of the Windows systems are rebooted as frequently as every week, and some only during required patching on a monthly or every 2-3 month basis. The Tivo is a closed system. Everything on it is purely designed and delivered by Tivo. It should fall into the category of a firewall, or switch gear. Reliability should be extremely high. It is not. I really tire of hearing people compare it to a PC, where the system is open and people can install all kinds of 3rd party apps and muck about with configuration. Except for those cracking their units open, that is clearly not a valid comparison here. 

4) Your cost comparison is equally ridiculous asking if my AC is "solar or wind powered" or if my car runs on air. Please learn a bit more about comparisons, OK? I can get power from anywhere - including generating my own - and my other devices will continue to function. EVEN IF THE TIVO RAN ON SOLAR POWER IT WOULD NOT FUNCTION IF YOU STOP PAYING TIVO FOR SERVICE. You could plug it into a nuclear power generation facility for free, and it would still not provide any useful purpose. That is not hte case for any other device, except to some extent a cell phone. When I bought my last 2 cars in 2008, I paid for them in full. I never pay the dealer or manufacturer again for them and I continue to use them. I do pay for fuel. With the Tivo you still pay for power. It's not a situation where I buy the car, completely pay for it, and then decide in 3 months I don't want to pay Mercedes the "service charges" every month and then have the car be unable to start no matter how much gas I put in it. You also attempt to twist the discussion into saying that my monthly fees are paying for that Verizon service call or replacement. So? Who cares? If the monthly rate is still the same or lower than with Tivo (which it is) why should I care if somewhere in one of the service lines a percentage is to cover maintenance? The point is that THEY take the risk - not me.

5) Boot times: Well, your units are speedier than mine, and it's been that way since day 1. I have mine on UPSs because they are so lethargic to reboot. First of all, let's get the comparison to a PC off the table, OK? Is referenced before, it is a stupid comparison. The Tivo is again a closed system with Tivo having complete control. It doesn't have a RAID 5 or RAID 10 configuration. No teamed network adapters. Nothing of the sort. Second, don't know why by one of my units typically takes betwen 12-15 minutes to reboot. Further, it also repeatedly fails rebooting if the TV (connected via HDMI) is not only connected but also powered on. An interesting issue. When rebooted and the TV is not powered on, the Tivo will not successfully see the cablecards and the tuners error out with a message that my cable is not connected and it's looking for a signal. If the TV is powered on during the reboot it typically reboots OK. This would be the replacement unit for the first one that failed and had to be returned. The other TivoHD is not connected via HDMI and does not experience this. 

You also fail to recognize that frankly it takes just as much if not more time to repair a Tivo yourself than it does to have somebody come and swap out the units. That is yet another ridiculous comparison. 

I think that the bottom line here is that so many Tivo proponents on this site are stuck back in the 80s and 90s, and still look at Tivos as "Geek" friendly devices that require special care and feeding. And that it should be OK for that to be the case. But unfortunately this is 2009, and there is more competition. Quality of design for other products has increased dramatically. And so have expectations. Discounting issues on Verizon because it's "only 5-10%" of the Tivo market shows an inability to understand what is really happening. It's not market driven, and when considering the growth of Fios across the US it is self-destructive. The Tivo UI and feature set is far superior to anything else out there. However, it has some very real issues. If we want Tivo to be successful, they need to address the issues head on, because every single day their competition gets stronger. It costs Verizon to have Tivo in the picture. Cablecard support is time consuming and expensive. As evidenced by them continuing to provide additional features (though certainly slowly) I see no reason to believe that they don't have Tivo directly in their crosshairs. They certainly have no incentive to focus on Tivo issues. From a cost perspective, Tivo clearly loses, so long as you look at the entire picture. I can't see that changing. Honestly, I really think that in the long run Tivo will sometime have to resort to being a software only company, but that is certainly just my own opinion and nothing resembling fact. 

This thread started about asking about the differences between the two services, and immediately anything said that didn't obviously favor Tivo was attacked. Hardly a honest response. I understand that this is a Tivo site and that it will include some amount of loyalty. But not "blind loyalty" - which is exactly what I see here.

The fact is that Tivo designed a product with a critical failure mode encountered when the unit experiences an SNR outside of the "Tivo" design spec - not an "industry" design spec. And that Tivo is doing nothing to support their users.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

wm2008 said:


> 2) You clearly have no conception of engineering.


Wow. I guess that EE degree I earned was all for nothing. Thanks for clarifying things for me.


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## wm2008 (Jan 3, 2009)

mr.unnatural said:


> Wow. I guess that EE degree I earned was all for nothing. Thanks for clarifying things for me.


Apparently it was. At least by your lack of reasoning and disregard for quality principles such as Six sigma, etc. You clearly don't understand failure modes. Or else you're simply so blinded by loyalty to Tivo that they're ignoring their own training and education.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

wm2008 said:


> Apparently it was. At least by your lack of reasoning and disregard for quality principles such as Six sigma, etc. You clearly don't understand failure modes. Or else you're simply so blinded by loyalty to Tivo that they're ignoring their own training and education.


I understand them just fine. I've been in the Electronics Industry for over 30 years and I deal with cutting edge technology all the time. Your problem is that you're damning a product based on a few bad experiences and totally ignoring the facts as they've been presented.

Consumer products fail, but not all of them fail all of the time. DVRs are prone to higher failure rates than other electronics because they're running 24/7. You got unlucky and fell into the extreme minority of Tivo owners that experienced quite a few problems with a small sampling of a single product whereas I'm in the vast majority that has experienced very few problems over an extended period, and with a much larger sample of Tivos on which I could base my opinion. I understand why you're bitter about Tivos, but that doesn't mean they all suck just because you got a few bad ones.

You seem to think that Tivo is somehow responsible for tailoring their product to work specifically with Verizon. Last time I checked they had no arrangements with Verizon for providing DVRs specifically for use with their service. Tivos are designed to meet an industry spec. The fact that the Veizon signal is too strong isn't Tivo's fault. If anything it means that the Verizon signal is out of spec and it's on them to get it working with your Tivo. The Motorola DVR has been tailored to work with FIOS so it's not surprising you'd have no pixellation issues with it like you would with the Tivos.

Tivos seem to work just fine on digital cable systems. FIOS just happens to be a bit different than digital cable. The pixellation problems some people report with FIOS are easily remedied by attenuating the signal. Chances are those that are experiencing the problem only have a few lines being split off from the ONT output. I have six lines split from the ONT, which apparently adds enough attenuation to alleviate any pixellation problems since I do not experience them on either of my S3's. Verizon will gladly supply you with a splitter or an attenuator if you just give them a call and explain the problem.

I'm a Tivo enthusiast, as are many of the rank and file here. I love to tinker with electronics and Tivos are a hobbyist's dream machine. They're the only DVRs commercially available that allow you to modify them and expand their capabilities beyond those of a stock DVR. It's one of the primary reasons I prefer Tivos over any other DVR. I realize that hacking a Tivo isn't everyone's cup of tea so it's not necessarily going to factor into their choice of DVR.

Many people simply want a basic DVR that records an occasional TV show and they don't care about all of the bells and whistles. The Motorola QIP-6416 falls into this category, which is no doubt why you're satisfied with it. Hacking capabilities aside, I just think that any DVR that can only record 20 hours of programming to be completely inadequate for my needs. Obviously, it's perfectly fine for you and the other FIOS subscribers that use it. To be fair, I don't really care about most of the bells and whistles that Tivo has included. I've stated this before and I'll say it again. I just want a rock solid DVR that's dependable and the Tivo fits this bill quite nicely.


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## wm2008 (Jan 3, 2009)

Please read entire posts and not just take little pieces and parts, OK? You're frankly just making crap up now.

1) The Moto unit uses the EXACT SAME TUNER WHEN INSTALLED ON BOTH THE FIOS AND THE COMAST NETWORKS. Is that difficult to understand? Moto does NOT change the tuner nor do they modify it. 

2) Tivo in fact requires that the industry spec be violated in order for it to work on Fios. By that I mean you should read on Verizons own site. To be more clear - Tivo does NOT work on an "industry spec". There is not - repeat IS NOT - ANY industry spec stipulating a S/N of 31. Period. Further, there is no violation of the spec by the 611 or 612 ONTs. They not only meet the specs, but frankly they further compress it to provide less variability.

3) You miss the point that Fios is the largest growing content provider in the US. Period. Verizon can easily survive without Tivo - and frankly would see increased revenues (although probably not really measurable). Tivo can probably not survive long term without Verizon. It's that simple. 

4) Your statement that attenuation "easily fixes" the pixelation issue is a lie. It is an overstatement of massive proportions. It does NOT easily fix the issue. It SOMETIMES fixes it, and even then not permanently. It also SOMETIMES creates other issues. People making that statement in the face of overwhelming proof that it is not the case are simply deliberately lying, or frankly just not aware. Sorry but true. I hate to be that blunt but people need to stop making that false claim. And as such, for many other people "rock solid dependability" is not a phrase that can be used in the same sentence as Tivo.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> You seem to think that Tivo is somehow responsible for tailoring their product to work specifically with Verizon. Last time I checked they had no arrangements with Verizon for providing DVRs specifically for use with their service. Tivos are designed to meet an industry spec. The fact that the Veizon signal is too strong isn't Tivo's fault. If anything it means that the Verizon signal is out of spec and it's on them to get it working with your Tivo. The Motorola DVR has been tailored to work with FIOS so it's not surprising you'd have no pixellation issues with it like you would with the Tivos.


Since this conversation seems to be in two different threads, I'll copy this here. This is a quote from the tech notice that Verizon published on the attenuation workaround:



> Testing has shown that attenuating the signal to the TiVo to an approximate power level of -17.5dBmv digital (ch 55), then the tiling issue is alleviated.*
> 
> CableLabs specifications are for a QAM256 tuner to accept a RF signal from -15dBmv to +15dBmv for digital. Verizon uses a more stringent standard than CableLabs of -6dBmv to +5dBmv for digital. Knowingly providing the TiVo a RF power level in the -17dBmv range is out of specification, but it resolves the tiling issue for the customer.
> 
> However, the fact that the fact that the signal level is so low may cause secondary issues, such as an intermittent loss of channels. This is to be expected when a TiVo is set up with such a marginal signal level.


*Wacky grammar as written.



mr.unnatural said:


> Tivos seem to work just fine on digital cable systems. FIOS just happens to be a bit different than digital cable.


I certainly agree there. My TiVo was working perfectly on Comcast. But, I believe there is a two-part solution here -- Verizon _and_ TiVo.

The thing that's been rolling around in my head is tilt. Perhaps TiVo is expecting a certain amount of tilt that is inherent in long cable runs -- something a FiOS installation tends not to have. Adding a common tilt compensator won't work, since it would compensate in the wrong direction.

It would explain why simple attenuation doesn't work in many cases -- the problems seem to be driven to the end of the spectrum for those of us who still have issues -- and why a TiVo that worked on copper cable system doesn't work properly on a glass one that appears to be in-spec in a sunrise scope.


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## wm2008 (Jan 3, 2009)

FWIW, I'll put this here as well as in the other spot. This afternoon we had friends over to watch the Steelers-Chargers game. Both Tivo HDs were pixelating so incredibly badly that they were not usable. I missed the whole first series while I moved my Verizon HD Moto box to my downstairs family room and connected it. The Moto box functioned perfectly. 

Even though (according to the Tivo diag screens) S/N is not increasing pixelation has increased incredibly, and expanded to more and more channels. 10 more people were over here and saw the differences. Obviously Tivo didn't make any friends tonight. Everyone is ticked off at Tivo at this point after watching me scramble to fix the broadcast while they were missing the game. I'm glad I had the "inferior" moto box here to save the day.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

wm2008 said:


> Please read entire posts and not just take little pieces and parts, OK? You're frankly just making crap up now.
> 
> 1) The Moto unit uses the EXACT SAME TUNER WHEN INSTALLED ON BOTH THE FIOS AND THE COMAST NETWORKS. Is that difficult to understand? Moto does NOT change the tuner nor do they modify it.
> 
> ...


OK, now you're really losing it. Where did I ever say anything about different tuners being used for different providers? The sensitivity of the Moto box may be a better match for both FIOS and digital cable, which is probably why it's used so widely throughout the U.S. Read sinanju's post above for a good explanation of the Tivo tuner's sensitivity and why there's an issue when using it with FIOS. I think it pretty well sums up the issue of pixellation with the Tivos on FIOS.

As for picking bits and pieces of your posts, I just got tired of wasting bandwidth to point out the errors in your posts line for line.

FIOS may be one of the fastest growing providers in the U.S. but the fact remains that they only cover an almost insignificant area of the country with respect to cable and satellite. Once again, you take the thread off topic by going off on tangents by bringing up things that were never part of the original discussion.

Get off the "I hate Tivo rant" for darn sake. We already know where you stand yet you continue to emphasize the point post after post. The horse is long dead so put down the stick already.


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## wm2008 (Jan 3, 2009)

mr.unnatural said:


> OK, now you're really losing it. Where did I ever say anything about different tuners being used for different providers? The sensitivity of the Moto box may be a better match for both FIOS and digital cable, which is probably why it's used so widely throughout the U.S. Read sinanju's post above for a good explanation of the Tivo tuner's sensitivity and why there's an issue when using it with FIOS. I think it pretty well sums up the issue of pixellation with the Tivos on FIOS.


You did not. Please note that my response was not solely directed at you. I did not quote you specifically. There are a couple people on this thread who can't seem to recognize the issue. One of those people specifically indicated that there were tuner differences between the 6416 implementation on Comcast and that on Verizon. Not so.



mr.unnatural said:


> As for picking bits and pieces of your posts, I just got tired of wasting bandwidth to point out the errors in your posts line for line.


Translation: Can't rebut them so ignore them I guess.



mr.unnatural said:


> FIOS may be one of the fastest growing providers in the U.S. but the fact remains that they only cover an almost insignificant area of the country with respect to cable and satellite. Once again, you take the thread off topic by going off on tangents by bringing up things that were never part of the original discussion.


Why are you even bringing up Satellite? Does Tivo market the TivoHD to Dish or Direct? No. This is about ground based delivery. Cable and Fios. The area they cover is not "insignificant" and such a description is frankly ridiculous. Do you have any metrics to show subs by region? Didn't think so. Or are you saying it's a smart business decision for Tivo to ignore Fios related issues and just concentrate on the older cable systems? After all, they'll always be 100% of the market, right?



mr.unnatural said:


> Get off the "I hate Tivo rant" for darn sake. We already know where you stand yet you continue to emphasize the point post after post. The horse is long dead so put down the stick already.


I DON'T hate Tivo. I actually Love the TivoHD - when it works. I think Tivo could and should make this better by owning up to the responsibility. I will continue to make sure that others realize this so that potential buyers are not influenced only by the Fanboy population that refuses to acknowledge serious problems. The fact is that Verizon is not deviating from acceptable and standard protocols or services with Fios as a default. There were apparently issues with the 610 ONTs, but they do not seem to exist with 611s or 612s. Some people insist that somehow the Verizon signal deviates from industry standards, but can find no evidence of such, nor can they point to any documentation or standard that is being violated.

This post started about comparisons between the Tivo HD on Fios and the Moto on Fios. There were consistently only wonderful things stated about the Tivo, and nothing but poor remarks about the Moto unit. I brought up a known, proven and factual example of how the Moto unit is in some ways superior to the Tivo HD. People don't like that. But it's true. As evidenced last night when forced to replace the Tivos with the Moto in order to watch the AFC game. Had I been a potential new subcriber and had I listened to you, I would not have been able to watch that game. It's just that simple.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

wm2008 said:


> You did not. Please note that my response was not solely directed at you. I did not quote you specifically. There are a couple people on this thread who can't seem to recognize the issue. One of those people specifically indicated that there were tuner differences between the 6416 implementation on Comcast and that on Verizon. Not so.


Gotcha



> Translation: Can't rebut them so ignore them I guess.


Not at all. It's just that some of them aren't worth responding to or more likely I've already responded to them in previous posts and saw no need to repeat myself.



> Why are you even bringing up Satellite? Does Tivo market the TivoHD to Dish or Direct? No. This is about ground based delivery. Cable and Fios. The area they cover is not "insignificant" and such a description is frankly ridiculous. Do you have any metrics to show subs by region? Didn't think so. Or are you saying it's a smart business decision for Tivo to ignore Fios related issues and just concentrate on the older cable systems? After all, they'll always be 100% of the market, right?


I mentioned satellite because they are a direct competitor to both digital cable and FIOS so I felt it had a direct impact on the discussion. Satellite subscribers detract from the potential customer base in areas where FIOS is available, as does digital cable. I have at least four different TV providers available in my area (DirecTV, Dish, Comcast, and FIOS). FIOS is only available in a handful of markets across the country whereas either cable and/or satellite are generally available virtually everywhere in the U.S., except in areas where you're too far out in the boonies to be serviced by cable or you don't have a clear line of sight to the satellites.

I'd be surprised if FIOS has penetrated more than 5% of the overall market (i.e., as in actual subscribers throughout the country vs. cable or satellite). I don't know the actual numbers but this seems to be a fair assumption based on the numerous threads regarding the FIOS service that I've seen posted here and in other forums. In the areas serviced by FIOS, only about 20% of the households that have FIOS available to them have signed up for the service (based on the search results I found). The number of Tivo owners within that subscriber base is probably going to be pretty small because most subscribers will tend to go with whatever equipment is offered by the provider. It's the folks that are interested in something better that will research Tivo and make an informed choice. I think you'll find that very few individuals that do their homework will actually pick the Motorola DVR over a Tivo when doing a one-on-one comparison.

In any case, Tivo isn't going to spend a lot of time and effort to "fix" problems that affect such a small market share. The percentage of Tivo owners that also have FIOS is miniscule at best when looking at their entire subscriber base so who do you think Tivo is more likely to support? If it was a widespread problem across the board then it would be in everyone's best interest, including Tivo's, to get it done right. Right now, the pixellating Tivos on FIOS amount to a very small minority when you look at the big picture. However, I am in agreement that if there are issues with the hardware then Tivo should address them, regardless of how many owners are affected.



> I DON'T hate Tivo. I actually Love the TivoHD - when it works. I think Tivo could and should make this better by owning up to the responsibility. I will continue to make sure that others realize this so that potential buyers are not influenced only by the Fanboy population that refuses to acknowledge serious problems. The fact is that Verizon is not deviating from acceptable and standard protocols or services with Fios as a default. There were apparently issues with the 610 ONTs, but they do not seem to exist with 611s or 612s. Some people insist that somehow the Verizon signal deviates from industry standards, but can find no evidence of such, nor can they point to any documentation or standard that is being violated.


You'd have a hard time convincing anyone of that after reading through your posts slamming Tivo for the problems you've encountered.



> This post started about comparisons between the Tivo HD on Fios and the Moto on Fios. There were consistently only wonderful things stated about the Tivo, and nothing but poor remarks about the Moto unit. I brought up a known, proven and factual example of how the Moto unit is in some ways superior to the Tivo HD. People don't like that. But it's true. As evidenced last night when forced to replace the Tivos with the Moto in order to watch the AFC game. Had I been a potential new subcriber and had I listened to you, I would not have been able to watch that game. It's just that simple.


Like I said, what did you expect in a Tivo forum? People are here because they like Tivos. Chances are many of them have dealt with making the choice between a Tivo and a Motorola or SA DVR offered by their cableco or Verizon and they ended up choosing Tivo for any number of reasons, the majority of which boil down to the Tivo being a better DVR. FWIW, that's not only my opinion but one that's shareed by countless others. The Motorola DVR may be deemed adequate for some but completely inadequate for many others. It's simply a matter of personal preference. I think we can both agree on that at least.


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