# Game of thrones -Valar Morghulis-s2e10 6/3/12



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

I don't know exactly what I wanted in the season finale, but I feel like I didn't get it.

The wide shot of the undead army at the end was cool.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Daaaaaymn! I think they saved their CG budget for this episode so we could finally see the dragons and some white walkers


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Those dragons looked amazing.

Loved that Dany kept her promise that those who wronged her will be destroyed. Or something like that.


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

Questions. 

Last time we saw Stannis (previous episode) he was captured. Now he was back at his castle? Did I miss something?

So Qarth was all fake gold/jewels? (all show?)

Can someone explain difference between whitewalkers & wildlings? Didn't realize till just these past few episodes they were different...

What was up with dude changing faces? Huh?


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## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

Dragons looked awesome. I like the episode. After Blackwater, it was a view of things to come and how the pieces fell after the dust settle. There were three very strong "love" scenes. I was happy to see Drogo.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Here is my take on the questions:

Stannis- he wasn't captured he was dragged away by his own men before he could be captured

Qarth - the gold/jewels on display were real, but the guys claims about being rich were lies and it was all for show. I believe someone here even suspected the vault was empty

Whitewalkers - supernatural boogeyman tha people tell stories about.

Wildlings - normal people that live beyond the wall, usually in small tribes and unorganized

Jaqen - caught me off guard, had to change faces sinces Jaqen is "dead". I wish arya went with him to learn how to kill for the red god


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

NatasNJ said:


> Questions.
> Can someone explain difference between whitewalkers & wildlings? Didn't realize till just these past few episodes they were different...
> 
> What was up with dude changing faces? Huh?


White walkers are some as yet completely understood entity. The fan theory is they are an undead of sorts. Wildlings are the humans that live north of the wall. They follow the old gods and are tribal.

Hagr and his changing face is a Faceless Man. You will learn more about them in the next few seasons. Basically, they are skilled assassins who can change their appearance to blend in or get away.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Legion said:


> White walkers are some as yet completely understood entity. The fan theory is they are an undead of sorts. Wildlings are the humans that live north of the wall. They follow the old gods and are tribal.


The white walkers are the undead. That was shown last season when the dead man became a white walker at the wall. That's also why the wildlings burn everyone they kill, to prevent them from coming back as white walkers. Tonight when they burnt Qoren Halfhand a wilding said, "I wouldn't want him coming back after me."

tk


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

pendragn said:


> The white walkers are the undead. That was shown last season when the dead man became a white walker at the wall. That's also why the wildlings burn everyone they kill, to prevent them from coming back as white walkers. Tonight when they burnt Qoren Halfhand a wilding said, "I wouldn't want him coming back after me."
> 
> tk


The undead are called


Spoiler



wights


. A White Walker is what you saw riding the horse.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

So let's see. We have fire dragons beyond the Narrow Sea. We have ice zombies beyond the Wall.

So I guess eventually they get together and sing a song?


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Alright! Another zombie show!

Damn. There was a really good line I wanted to remember...


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

zordude said:


> Qarth - the gold/jewels on display were real, but the guys claims about being rich were lies and it was all for show. I believe someone here even suspected the vault was empty.


Yeah. That was me.

I also said that Breinne would cut Jamie's jewels off. Right action. Wrong guy.

I said that Tyrion would get dissed.

I said that Dany & the dragons could toast the house.

Totally unemcumbered by reading the books.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I thought Brienne looked rather clumsy during her fight with the three men. I was expecting her to be more controlled, with precise and deliberate movements. But she seemed to flail around instead. She was quick, but did not seem like an expert with the sword to me.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Legion said:


> Hagr and his changing face is a Faceless Man. You will learn more about them in the next few seasons. Basically, they are skilled assassins who can change their appearance to blend in or get away.


Looks like they're analagous to the Dune universe "Face dancers."

--Carlos V.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

I don't really understand what happened at Winterfell. Who burnt down the castle? Theon's men as they retreated?


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

You aren't supposed to know what happened to Winterfell I believe. Plus this has played out differently than the book, although not so much that they can't end up in the same place.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

So what did we see there at the end? Was that just an army of White Walkers separate from Mance Rayder, or is Mance Rayder a whitewalker? I saw lots of the gray camouflage outfits the wildlings wear, and earlier this season we did see cooperation between a wildling (the dude that marries his daughters) and a white walker.

What was Varys after in the brothel? Was he just trying to locate shae, or was he after something more?

I figured stannis was going to come back darker than before, and it looks like we are on track.

I wasn't so thrilled with the whole Dany scene...especially the ending. It just didn't feel like this show. Something about the way it was produced. It also felt rushed...like they tried to squeeze too much into too little time. I know that's how the entire show is, but the rest of it doesn't really feel rushed.

So what happened to all of the men waiting outside of winterfell? Where did they all go to, that the iron men were able torch the place and then just waltz away? Was the whole horn thing a ruse they put on to torment Theon?

Disappointed (but not surprised) that Tyrion got absolutely no credit. Not surprised Joffrey dumped Sansa for Margery (though I am surprised it took so much prodding). Did I see correctly, was Sansa relieved and smiling while walking away? As stupid as she's been, I figured she'd run away crying or something? Guess she should have gone with the Hound.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I hate the way Joffrey sits on the throne, slumped to the side like he's too cool to sit up straight.

Sansa should have exited, stage left with the Hound. Girl can't do nothin' right.

The principal from Community underestimated Dany and her dragons. So much for his magic.

I hope Tyrion gets his revenge next season.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

since you touched on every topic I wanted to get to, I figured I'd chop up your post for my purposes!



LordKronos said:


> So what did we see there at the end? Was that just an army of White Walkers separate from Mance Rayder, or is Mance Rayder a whitewalker? I saw lots of the gray camouflage outfits the wildlings wear, and earlier this season we did see cooperation between a wildling (the dude that marries his daughters) and a white walker.


As I understand it, The Wildings/Rayder and the White Walkers are 2 separate entities. The Wildings are just as afraid of the WW as people south of the wall. But the big ender for the season is the reveal of the size and organization of the WW army



LordKronos said:


> What was Varys after in the brothel? Was he just trying to locate shae, or was he after something more?


I thought it was the head spy recruiting a spy to work for him (and spy on Littlefinger). Especially now that Littlefinger has risen very high and got Harrenhall. He is now a much bigger threat and Varys is putting his pawns in place.



LordKronos said:


> I wasn't so thrilled with the whole Dany scene...especially the ending. It just didn't feel like this show. Something about the way it was produced. It also felt rushed...like they tried to squeeze too much into too little time. I know that's how the entire show is, but the rest of it doesn't really feel rushed.


Same here. I thought at least she would declare herself the queen of Qarth; not get a little ship and go home!



LordKronos said:


> So what happened to all of the men waiting outside of winterfell? Where did they all go to, that the iron men were able torch the place and then just waltz away? Was the whole horn thing a ruse they put on to torment Theon?


I thought Theon would be handed over to the men outside (and that still may have been). But Winterfell burning seems strange. My theory is that Yara told the men to bring Theon home by any means necessary. They knew he would not listen so they knocked him out and burned the place down to cover their escape. The siege men are not there because they are chasing the Iron Island people.



LordKronos said:


> Disappointed (but not surprised) that Tyrion got absolutely no credit. Not surprised Joffrey dumped Sansa for Margery (though I am surprised it took so much prodding). Did I see correctly, was Sansa relieved and smiling while walking away? As stupid as she's been, I figured she'd run away crying or something? Guess she should have gone with the Hound.


Sansa is back on my total idiot list. She should have gone with the Hound. I hope Joffrey rapes and tortures her!

(I can't believe I just wrote that last part!)


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> So what did we see there at the end? Was that just an army of White Walkers separate from Mance Rayder, or is Mance Rayder a whitewalker? I saw lots of the gray camouflage outfits the wildlings wear, and earlier this season we did see cooperation between a wildling (the dude that marries his daughters) and a white walker.


It was a couple white walkers, the ones on horses with the ice-looking swords, leading many more wights. The wights are reanimated dead creatures (human, horse, etc). Everyone, Night's Watch and wildlings alike, is afraid of this bunch.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> So what did we see there at the end? Was that just an army of White Walkers separate from Mance Rayder, or is Mance Rayder a whitewalker? I saw lots of the gray camouflage outfits the wildlings wear, and earlier this season we did see cooperation between a wildling (the dude that marries his daughters) and a white walker.


I can't remember how much of this we know this from the show yet or just the books, and even if it hasn't explicitly been spelled out it should be pretty obvious by now, but...


Spoiler



the White Walkers are what is coming back, who have the Wildlings so terrified they're gathering together to flee south. They've been hanging over the series since literally the first scene, but this is the first time we've seen them in full force, if that IS their full force. They're also why the Wall was built and why the Watch exists, although most people seem to have forgotten that.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I thought Brienne looked rather clumsy during her fight with the three men. I was expecting her to be more controlled, with precise and deliberate movements. But she seemed to flail around instead. She was quick, but did not seem like an expert with the sword to me.


Are you kidding? She was surrounded (guys in front and behind), and she managed to disable 1 and kill 2 others in about 4 seconds. She accomplished that about as gracefully as one could.

I think Jamie was impressed. I wonder if we'll here any more of him attempting to goad her into a swordfight. Like Ned said early on, Jamie picks his opponents well. He may no longer be interested in picking this one.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

My favorite line was Littlefinger to Sansa:

"We are all liars here one and all and all better than you." After her statement about Kingslanding being her home now.

Though I am almost certainly paraphrasing.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I can't remember how much of this we know this from the show yet or just the books, and even if it hasn't explicitly been spelled out it should be pretty obvious by now, but...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Yeah, but clearly not everyone is afraid of them, since Castor apparently has some pact with them. And we know that some wildlings are fleeing individually. But I don't recall anything that would specifically eliminate the possibility that they are the same army. That said, it's probably not the case.

Also, I'll say I'm surprised to see so much of the white walkers this early. I was sure they weren't going to hit bit for a few more season, though maybe they are just going to spend the next few seasons slowly building them up.

But that horn that we hear...isn't that horn at the wall? And it blew 3 blasts, so the white walkers have to be visible from the wall.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Yeah, but clearly not everyone is afraid of them, since Castor apparently has some pact with them. And we know that some wildlings are fleeing individually. But I don't recall anything that would specifically eliminate the possibility that they are the same army. That said, it's probably not the case.
> 
> Also, I'll say I'm surprised to see so much of the white walkers this early. I was sure they weren't going to hit bit for a few more season, though maybe they are just going to spend the next few seasons slowly building them up.
> 
> *But that horn that we hear...isn't that horn at the wall? And it blew 3 blasts, so the white walkers have to be visible from the wall*.


No, that big hill they were headed towards is the Fist of the First Men, which is where the Nights Watch camp is. The horn blasts would have come from rangers who were on watch around the Fist.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jakerock said:


> "We are all liars here one and all and all better than you." After her statement about Kingslanding being her home now.
> 
> Though I am almost certainly paraphrasing.


Close enough. "Look around you, we are all liers here, and every one of us is better than you".

Littlefinger is clearly trying to make another play for Cat here. If he keeps this up, by the end of the series he just might be able to wear her down enough to get Cat to simply say no without her being offended by the idea. 

About Harrenhall, wasn't that already promised to (or given to) someone else? I think Tyrion used it as his bait earlier this season (when he was testing Littlefinger/Varys/Pycelle), but it seemed like there was someone else that had it, though maybe I'm just mixing it up. I know The Mountain is temporarily holding it, but it seemed like someone more permanent.

Actually, just checked season 1 episode 7: Joffrey named Janos Slynt lord of Harrenahll, and that it be passed to his sons and grandsons. So what happened there? Was Janos Slynt the guy that Tyrion/Bronn had sent away? Was noone able to locate him? Did he have no kids to pass it down to?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

You have it right. Tyrion took it away from him when he sent him to the Night's Watch and gave Bronn the job.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

zordude said:


> I don't know exactly what I wanted in the season finale, but I feel like I didn't get it.
> 
> The wide shot of the undead army at the end was cool.


This....but the ending was still good.

I, for one, am not interested much in Dany and her Dragons (unless she gets naked, then I'm VERY interested!! ). For some reason that whole plotline seemed VERY secondary all season.

Looks like Tywin just used Tyrion. Very sad indeed, but, you can see Tyrion's wheels are already spinning. He said something like, I enjoy outsmarting them (perhaps HE should have been the "little person" who played Survivor last season  ). So it will be interesting to see how he does this.

I agree, Sansa is an idiot....what could she possibly gain from staying in King's Landing? Does she think she's going to still be Queen? I'm not getting this.

Arya is still my my favorite character. I think she's smarter than than the whole lot of them, and eventually, when she gets in a position of power, I pity the rest of them. I wonder if this is going to lead to a battle of will between Arya and Dany eventually.

Jon Snow is still an idiot!

Robb Stark, is becoming one. He's not seeing the big picture. But love has blinded many a men. If he doesn't see how he's going to lose alliances and this could be his downfall, maybe he's not the leader we thought he was.

And..uggh....another zombie show. Disappointed, but I guess I should have seen this happening. I guess I'll just have to see how this plays out. I'm too invested in this show to care that much that there's zombies I guess.

And.....oh yeah, long wait until S3. Very sad.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Anubys said:


> since you touched on every topic I wanted to get to, I figured I'd chop up your post for my purposes!


And I to you!



> I thought it was the head spy recruiting a spy to work for him (and spy on Littlefinger). Especially now that Littlefinger has risen very high and got Harrenhall. He is now a much bigger threat and Varys is putting his pawns in place.


This is right on. Varys just trying to get intel. It was nice to see more of Varys and his methods. Find the weak spots and exploit them.



> Same here. I thought at least she would declare herself the queen of Qarth; not get a little ship and go home!


Why be Queen of Qarth? She's got her dragons, money for a ship. Time to start heading west, no?



> I thought Theon would be handed over to the men outside (and that still may have been). But Winterfell burning seems strange. My theory is that Yara told the men to bring Theon home by any means necessary. They knew he would not listen so they knocked him out and burned the place down to cover their escape. The siege men are not there because they are chasing the Iron Island people.


The show was pretty vague on this whole section. I don't know exactly where they are going with it, but suffice it to say that we just don't really know what happened. Last we know, the Ironborn had a hood over Theon's head, said they were going home, and 500 northmen were outside the gates (Bolton's bastard son leading them, fair to assume).



> Sansa is back on my total idiot list. She should have gone with the Hound. I hope Joffrey rapes and tortures her!


Don't know that I can agree. Was the Hound really a knight in shining armor? And she was definitely happy at first about not marrying Joffrey!


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Littlefinger is clearly trying to make another play for Cat here. If he keeps this up, by the end of the series he just might be able to wear her down enough to get Cat to simply say no without her being offended by the idea.


For a while there I got the impression he was making the moves on Sansa. Either to protect her, or to ensure those offspring that he talked about earlier in the episode.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Actually, just checked season 1 episode 7: Joffrey named Janos Slynt lord of Harrenahll, and that it be passed to his sons and grandsons. So what happened there? Was Janos Slynt the guy that Tyrion/Bronn had sent away? Was noone able to locate him? Did he have no kids to pass it down to?


Yes, Slynt was sent away and Harrenhal was promised to Littlefinger by Tyrion.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

They gave us a decently important moment in the House of the Undying when the warlock says that their magic became real and powerful when the dragons were born. There is definitely a connection.

Generally I liked that scene. How much of what she saw was just sorcery and how much was prophesy? She saw a destroyed throne room. Looked kind of like dragons attacked, eh? We saw her at the wall, meeting Drogo and her son, who are both dead. A symbol for the wall being a sort of transition to the other side? Were the visions tricks? Offer Dany what she most wanted, the iron throne and her love Drogo and see if she just gives up?

Well done.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Qarth is a rich city that just lost its 13 richest men. It's a trade port. Dany could do well by taking over for a while, making a huge fortune, then going to Westeros on a fleet of 500 ships, 3 dragons, and all the sellswords in the world.

Running to Westeros on a small ship with 3 fire-breathing chickens is impulsive and reckless.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I agree, Sansa is an idiot....what could she possibly gain from staying in King's Landing? Does she think she's going to still be Queen? I'm not getting this.


I think she thinks that everyone (Littlefinger, the Hound, etc) is just testing her, and that if she lets her feeling be known they'll run back to tell Joffrey and she'll be killed or something. I think Littlefinger is her best way out. He can't be trusted, but he want's cat, so he'll be honest about helping her (but unless he did something truly tasteless like "marry me if you want your daughters back").


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

billypritchard said:


> They gave us a decently important moment in the House of the Undying when the warlock says that their magic became real and powerful when the dragons were born. There is definitely a connection.
> 
> Generally I liked that scene. How much of what she saw was just sorcery and how much was prophesy? She saw a destroyed throne room. Looked kind of like dragons attacked, eh? We saw her at the wall, meeting Drogo and her son, who are both dead. A symbol for the wall being a sort of transition to the other side? Were the visions tricks? Offer Dany what she most wanted, the iron throne and her love Drogo and see if she just gives up?
> 
> Well done.


I thought it was a way to make her want to stay (which would keep her next to the dragons). But she left the "visions" and came back into the room. So he took away the invisibility magic (so she could see the dragons) and chained her up.

Why a man would chain a woman like that and keep her clothed is beyond me


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jschuur said:


> For a while there I got the impression he was making the moves on Sansa. Either to protect her, or to ensure those offspring that he talked about earlier in the episode.


That was what I thought at first, but I don't think that's the case. He's been holding out his entire life for Cat. Although maybe he's desparate now...he's a lord, needs a lady and kids, Cat is repulsed by him, Sansa reminds him of Cat. Solution: put a bag over her head, pretend it's Cat, and that's close enough  But seriously, I doubt it.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> I think she thinks that everyone (Littlefinger, the Hound, etc) is just testing her, and that if she lets her feeling be known they'll run back to tell Joffrey and she'll be killed or something. I think Littlefinger is her best way out. He can't be trusted, but he want's cat, so he'll be honest about helping her (but unless he did something truly tasteless like "marry me if you want your daughters back").


My first thought, when she met up with Littlefinger, was that he was going to suggest he marry her. One, it gives him perhaps another alliance, if things don't go well for him. He is a snake and likes to hedge his bets). Second, since he can't have Cat (or maybe he doesn't think he can with the war going on), it's a way to get close to Cat, by marrying the daughter. And third, if he can marry the daughter of the enemy, it's a possible way to stop the war and create a new alliance, since he is now a man of power in King's Landing.

But the more I think about it, the more I think Littlefinger would not want to mess up his new power by marrying a Stark. It's an interesting interplay.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Disappointed (but not surprised) that Tyrion got absolutely no credit. Not surprised Joffrey dumped Sansa for Margery (though I am surprised it took so much prodding). Did I see correctly, was Sansa relieved and smiling while walking away? As stupid as she's been, I figured she'd run away crying or something? Guess she should have gone with the Hound.


Well, one thing you can't fault Joffrey for is his taste in women. I was laughing at Margery's dress: it was pretty obvious what she was after! My impression was that entire scene, from the request itself through all the denials by Joffrey and reassurances by the others, right through to the final decision, was completely pre-orchestrated. Everyone involved, including Joffrey, knew exactly what was going to happen and what they would say and in what order. The goal was to get Joffrey out of his betrothal to Sansa Stark without looking like an oath-breaker, so he pretends that he cannot possibly consider it, until he is convinced by others, oh so reluctantly, that he can and must do this.

Sansa's reaction was perfectly predictable: she's overjoyed that she won't have to marry Joffrey, whom she hates and is scared of. Why would she cry about that? She's too naive to know what it REALLY means, until Littlefinger sets her straight.



LordKronos said:


> I think she thinks that everyone (Littlefinger, the Hound, etc) is just testing her, and that if she lets her feeling be known they'll run back to tell Joffrey and she'll be killed or something.


That's what I think too. She's been saying that she loves Joffrey and wants nothing more than to marry him: it's all lies but she's not going to give anyone any opportunity to trick her into looking disloyal. So when Littlefinger tells her to run away she won't admit to wanting to do that. Who would trust Littlefinger? She knows (doesn't she?) that he betrayed her father. As for the Hound, I'm not sure that running off with that guy in the middle of a pitched battle for the city was something anyone in Sansa's place would have seriously considered. She didn't know she's be set aside; as long as she's the King's betrothed she has some amount of protection.



Anubys said:


> Why a man would chain a woman like that and keep her clothed is beyond me


For that man, I could see it. He didn't look like there was much man left in him.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Running to Westeros on a small ship with 3 fire-breathing chickens is impulsive and reckless.


Of course all we really know about her immediate plans is that she's buying a ship. We can assume she will use it to go to Westeros right away, but she never said that...if she's not a complete idiot, she has a plan beyond "sail to Westeros and declare myself King"!


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

madscientist said:


> Well, one thing you can't fault Joffrey for is his taste in women. I was laughing at Margery's dress: it was pretty obvious what she was after! My impression was that entire scene, from the request itself through all the denials by Joffrey and reassurances by the others, right through to the final decision, was completely pre-orchestrated. Everyone involved, including Joffrey, knew exactly what was going to happen and what they would say and in what order. The goal was to get Joffrey out of his betrothal to Sansa Stark without looking like an oath-breaker, so he pretends that he cannot possibly consider it, until he is convinced by others, oh so reluctantly, that he can and must do this.


I contrast this to how Robb Stark ended up marrying the doctor. He didn't care about protocol and making sure that at the end of the day, he still would be able to maintain his alliances and respect of his people. Robb impulsively married the doctor, consequences be damned, and you KNOW that's going to wind up hurting him in the end.


> Sansa's reaction was perfectly predictable: she's overjoyed that she won't have to marry Joffrey, whom she hates and is scared of. Why would she cry about that? She's too naive to know what it REALLY means, until Littlefinger sets her straight.
> 
> That's what I think too. She's been saying that she loves Joffrey and wants nothing more than to marry him: it's all lies but she's not going to give anyone any opportunity to trick her into looking disloyal. So when Littlefinger tells her to run away she won't admit to wanting to do that. Who would trust Littlefinger? She knows (doesn't she?) that he betrayed her father. As for the Hound, I'm not sure that running off with that guy in the middle of a pitched battle for the city was something anyone in Sansa's place would have seriously considered. She didn't know she's be set aside; as long as she's the King's betrothed she has some amount of protection.


This makes sense, but I never got the impression that Sansa was bright enough to realize that she's being tested like that. Not going with the Hound, struck me as she's too fearful of him. And heading Littlefingers advice, are you saying she's afraid that Littlefinger will go back to Joffrey if she decides to run? Again, I don't get the impression she could figure that out. Maybe it's just bad acting...I don't know.

I should add that Varys is also becoming one of my favorite characters. I get the feeling he's loyal to no one, and tries to get dirt on everyone to use at the appropriate time. It makes him one of the most powerful men on the show without actually having outward power. Fun to watch.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course all we really know about her immediate plans is that she's buying a ship. We can assume she will use it to go to Westeros right away, but she never said that...if she's not a complete idiot, she has a plan beyond "sail to Westeros and declare myself King"!


What's the current state of Valyria? I knew it was a once great city and it fell, but I don't know if there's still much there or if it's empty. Valyria isn't too far away, can be reached directly by ship (it's on an island), and was the home of the Targaryens before they conquered Westeros. Might be a fitting place for her to take up residence while her dragons mature and she builds an army.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Robb impulsively married the doctor, consequences be damned, and you KNOW that's going to wind up hurting him in the end.


Will there be consequences? There was nobody around but the minister. It almost seemed like a secret wedding so they can make their bond without anyone knowing. Perhaps he'll go through with the arranged marriage as a sham.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> What's the current state of Valyria? I knew it was a once great city and it fell, but I don't know if there's still much there or if it's empty. Valyria isn't too far away, can be reached directly by ship (it's on an island), and was the home of the Targaryens before they conquered Westeros. Might be a fitting place for her to take up residence while her dragons mature and she builds an army.


Valyria is a smoking wasteland. She won't be getting any army there.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I should add that Varys is also becoming one of my favorite characters. I get the feeling he's loyal to no one, and tries to get dirt on everyone to use at the appropriate time. It makes him one of the most powerful men on the show without actually having outward power. Fun to watch.


Agree. Like I mentioned in the other thread Cristina started (by the way...our task for the day is to discuss every aspect of this show before she gets here  ), it seems to me like Varys is not so much interested in power as he is in antagonizing others (especially thos with power). I don't know whether it's just for kicks, or whether he just doesn't like to see anyone get too powerful.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

billypritchard said:


> Valyria is a smoking wasteland. She won't be getting any army there.


Well, maybe recruit from nearby and take her recruits back to Valyria. But if it really is a wasteland and there's not much there to build from, then that may not work.

Another option...would she still have support from Penthos without Khal Drago involved?


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Qarth is a rich city that just lost its 13 richest men. It's a trade port. Dany could do well by taking over for a while, making a huge fortune, then going to Westeros on a fleet of 500 ships, 3 dragons, and all the sellswords in the world.


How rich can the city really be, if the supposed richest man in it had an empty vault?

Here's an interesting thought (and I haven't read the books yet): Tyrion could team up with Dany.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I expected to see a sea of white walkers + wightes, not a group of 80 or so. Didn't look that threatening.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jschuur said:


> Tyrion could team up with Dany.


Considering Tywin and Jamie betrayed her father? Probably not likely she'll trust a Lannister.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Agree. Like I mentioned in the other thread Cristina started (by the way...our task for the day is to discuss every aspect of this show before she gets here  ), it seems to me like Varys is not so much interested in power as he is in antagonizing others (especially thos with power). I don't know whether it's just for kicks, or whether he just doesn't like to see anyone get too powerful.


I think Varys is trying to serve Westros. That is what he claims to serve and I haven't seen him do anything that makes me think otherwise. I think he actually likes Tyrion because he saved the city and from Varys' view point (and mine for what that is worth) Tyrion is doing the right things to keep the kindgom 'safe'. He (Tyrion) acts subtley against Joffrey and the queen in order to improve things. He (Tyrion) actively plans to defend the city etc. Varys works against (or at least keeps an eye on) Littlefinger because he's interested in personal gain at the expense of what ever stands in his way.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I expected to see a sea of white walkers + wightes, not a group of 80 or so. Didn't look that threatening.


A group of 80 zombies would be a lot worse if you didn't have any guns, right?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I expected to see a sea of white walkers + wightes, not a group of 80 or so. Didn't look that threatening.


There were easily several hundred of them...maybe more than 1000. If you pause at the scene where the rider in back on the white horse just becomes visible. In both sides of the screen you can see the army extending off well into the distance.

Edit: Plus, they're pretty nasty if you don't have fire handy to torch them with.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

But you have the napalm/antifreeze that the monks make.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

> So what happened to all of the men waiting outside of winterfell? Where did they all go to, that the iron men were able torch the place and then just waltz away? Was the whole horn thing a ruse they put on to torment Theon?


After checking again, Theon says he stood on the battlements and saw he was surrounded, so it wasn't a ruse. So what happened with all of these men, and how did they let the iron men just torch the place? I know they were supposed to let everyone buy Theon return home, but I figured torching Winterfell (and what of everyone who was still living there?) would have voided that option.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

cherry ghost said:


> A White Walker is what you saw riding the horse.


Looked more like a White Trotter to me!


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> After checking again, Theon says he stood on the battlements and saw he was surrounded, so it wasn't a ruse. So what happened with all of these men, and how did they let the iron men just torch the place? I know they were supposed to let everyone buy Theon return home, but I figured torching Winterfell (and what of everyone who was still living there?) would have voided that option.


I don't think we know that Theon's men torched the castle. All we know is they knocked him unconscious and that they were supposed to have been offered their freedom if they gave him up. We don't even know if that offer was actually given. We do know that some time later the castle is burned and it seems like everyone was killed. Though who everyone turned out to be wasn't shown. We don't know who torched it or why nor do we know what happened to Theon or his men. Perhaps they are some of the bodies.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Rob did say all the ironborn could go home except Theon. I don't know if that's what happened, and it doesn't explain the burning of Winterfell, but he did say that.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

netringer said:


> I also said that Breinne would cut Jamie's jewels off. Right action. Wrong guy.


I don't think she cut his nuts off. I think she put her sword into his stomach so that he would bleed out nice and slow.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> Rob did say all the ironborn could go home except Theon. I don't know if that's what happened, and it doesn't explain the burning of Winterfell, but he did say that.


He didn't say they could just go home. He said any who *surrender* could return home. I would imagine torching the place wouldn't be considered surrender.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> After checking again, Theon says he stood on the battlements and saw he was surrounded, so it wasn't a ruse. So what happened with all of these men, and how did they let the iron men just torch the place? I know they were supposed to let everyone buy Theon return home, but I figured torching Winterfell (and what of everyone who was still living there?) would have voided that option.


At his point, we just don't know. Presumably, that will be a plot point in Season 3.


NoThru22 said:


> I don't think she cut his nuts off. I think she put her sword into his stomach so that he would bleed out nice and slow.


It was clear to me that this is exactly what happened. She gave them the same fate as they gave the hookers...two fast deaths, one slow.

And I agree that while she killed them quickly, the choreography was very awkward. They were probably in a predicament finding an actress who had both the size and the physical skills for the role, couldn't find both, and ended up going with somebody who looked the part.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> He didn't say they could just go home. He said any who *surrender* could return home. I would imagine torching the place wouldn't be considered surrender.


Rob did say that. That doesn't mean that the men surrounding the place got the message, cared about the message, forwarded the message, and/or honored the message. We should remember is that just because someone says something doesn't make it happen.

Theon's men might have burned the place. The attackers might have burned the place. Maybe the place wasn't torched and instead a small battle insued when there was a misunderstanding between the attackers and Theon's men and some of the castle burned. We don't know what happened in the show unless I missed something.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

jschuur said:


> For a while there I got the impression he was making the moves on Sansa. Either to protect her, or to ensure those offspring that he talked about earlier in the episode.


Me too.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LordKronos said:


> Are you kidding? She was surrounded (guys in front and behind), and she managed to disable 1 and kill 2 others in about 4 seconds. She accomplished that about as gracefully as one could.
> 
> I think Jamie was impressed. I wonder if we'll here any more of him attempting to goad her into a swordfight. Like Ned said early on, Jamie picks his opponents well. He may no longer be interested in picking this one.


Not kidding. As I said, she was quick. But she also appeared clumsy. She looked like a tall, gawky woman who just picked up a sword for the first time and started flailing around with it. Except she was quick, and had the element of surprise, so she did manage to kill the 3 men (although the one behind her looked sort of like luck, since she didn't even really look at him before she flailed the sword at him). I'm not expecting Uma Thurman or Summer Glau grace, but it would have been nice if she looked like someone who had been training with a sword for most of her life rather than someone who just picked up a sword for the first time.

As for Jamie, I was rather surprised that he just stood there watching after she killed the first two. There were weapons lying about, and the chains on Jaime looked to give him some freedom of movement.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

jschuur said:


> For a while there I got the impression he was making the moves on Sansa. Either to protect her, or to ensure those offspring that he talked about earlier in the episode.


Yeah. Cat 2.0.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

tlc said:


> Yeah. Cat 2.0.


Some people REALLY need to get a life


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Not kidding. As I said, she was quick. But she also appeared clumsy. She looked like a tall, gawky woman who just picked up a sword for the first time and started flailing around with it. Except she was quick, and had the element of surprise, so she did manage to kill the 3 men (although the one behind her looked sort of like luck, since she didn't even really look at him before she flailed the sword at him). I'm not expecting Uma Thurman or Summer Glau grace, but it would have been nice if she looked like someone who had been training with a sword for most of her life rather than someone who just picked up a sword for the first time.
> 
> As for Jamie, I was rather surprised that he just stood there watching after she killed the first two. There were weapons lying about, and the chains on Jaime looked to give him some freedom of movement.


But we already saw her fight (when she became one of Renly's guards). She wins with brute force and very little grace. It's like fighting a tree. A tree that can hammer you with its branches.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> But we already saw her fight (when she became one of Renly's guards). She wins with brute force and very little grace. It's like fighting a tree. A tree that can hammer you with its branches.


No, she won because she is an expert with a sword, and is as strong as a man. One does not beat expert swordsmen on strength alone -- it also takes skill.

As I said, I don't expect grace. But I do expect the precise control and deliberate movements of a person who has trained with a sword their entire life. The whole grace and killing like a dancing ballerina thing is a myth. But it is not a myth that experts with the sword move precisely and deliberately, because they have been practicing these moves thousands of times, over and over, until the movements become second nature.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

john4200 said:


> No, she won because she is an expert with a sword, and is as strong as a man. One does not beat expert swordsmen on strength alone -- it also takes skill.
> 
> As I said, I don't expect grace. But I do expect the precise control and deliberate movements of a person who has trained with a sword their entire life. The whole grace and killing like a dancing ballerina thing is a myth. But it is not a myth that experts with the sword move precisely and deliberately, because they have been practicing these moves thousands of times, over and over, until the movements become second nature.


Since the actress probably isn't an expert with the sword, I'll bet this is just bad choreography. And it's probably something most viewers will not even notice, considering how fast she was able to defeat the other three.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

So it's turning into a zombie show. Great. That's something new and different. [Yes, I realize the show is based on the books, and GRRM may have been waaay ahead of the curve on zombies, but judging the show on its own, as a non-reader of the books and a viewer of the show, I wasn't thrilled to see the zombie army.]

This was definitely a let down from last week. Not a surprise, though. About the only way to go was down after that.

Too bad for Tyrion. Seems like he would have got a gold watch or something for his trouble. Even as a simple PR move, it might have been good for Joffrey to acknowledge Tyrion. Nice upgrade in the queen department, though, Joff.

Are we sure that was lady Talisa that married Rob, and not, say, the Hound? If that was Talisa, she may have the same affliction as a former girlfriend of Jerry Seinfeld - in certain lighting and from certain angles, she's a 10 and in other lighting and from other angles, not so much. That definitely wasn't her good side. I thought for a few moments Rob was being a good soldier/king and marrying the homely Frey girl, but he wouldn't have done that in a secret, rushed ceremony. It had to be Talisa but sure didn't look like her.

Re our man Ducksauce, maybe the gigantic vault went over-budget and by the end of the project, he had no more money/gold to put in it.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Since the actress probably isn't an expert with the sword, I'll bet this is just bad choreography. And it's probably something most viewers will not even notice, considering how fast she was able to defeat the other three.


I'll take a wild guess and say most medieval swordsmen/women were not graceful. Combine brute force with the element of surprise and you'll have some ugly, but effective swordsmen/women.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> No, she won because she is an expert with a sword, and is as strong as a man. One does not beat expert swordsmen on strength alone -- it also takes skill.
> 
> As I said, I don't expect grace. But I do expect the precise control and deliberate movements of a person who has trained with a sword their entire life. The whole grace and killing like a dancing ballerina thing is a myth. But it is not a myth that experts with the sword move precisely and deliberately, because they have been practicing these moves thousands of times, over and over, until the movements become second nature.


There probably aren't that many 6'5" actresses who are expert with a broadsword. It's a tv show. Somethings you just have to live with.

I guess that my hope that Theon had a secret plan to help the Starks should go on the trash heap now. At least his men didn't kill him.

I hate that woman Ygritte's accent. Sounds like she should be doing commercials for Scott's Turf Builder. Feed et!


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

cheesesteak said:


> There probably aren't that many 6'5" actresses who are expert with a broadsword.


I'm not sure why you think actors need to be sword experts. Actors do not need to respond quickly (ad lib) to unknown moves by their opponents. They only need to, well, ACT out the movements that have been choreographed for them.

As has already been pointed out, this is probably a failure of the choreography combined with the actress being bad at following choreography. I'm not sure which is the greater factor.


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## BK89 (Oct 11, 2005)

tivoboyjr said:


> Are we sure that was lady Talisa that married Rob, and not, say, the Hound? If that was Talisa, she may have the same affliction as a former girlfriend of Jerry Seinfeld - in certain lighting and from certain angles, she's a 10 and in other lighting and from other angles, not so much. That definitely wasn't her good side. I thought for a few moments Rob was being a good soldier/king and marrying the homely Frey girl, but he wouldn't have done that in a secret, rushed ceremony. It had to be Talisa but sure didn't look like her.


I thought the same thing. Did not look like her at all.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I'm not sure why you think actors need to be sword experts. Actors do not need to respond quickly (ad lib) to unknown moves by their opponents. They only need to, well, ACT out the movements that have been choreographed for them.
> 
> As has already been pointed out, this is probably a failure of the choreography combined with the actress being bad at following choreography. I'm not sure which is the greater factor.


That said, it's TV, and it looked fine to me, and probably most viewers


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Since the actress probably isn't an expert with the sword, I'll bet this is just bad choreography. And it's probably something most viewers will not even notice, considering how fast she was able to defeat the other three.


That's how I see it. It's probably hard to do a GOOD swordfight onscreen. As someone who knows squat about swordplay, beyond "stick em with the pointy end", I had no problem with the scene. The main thing is, she was still standing and they weren't.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Decent ending of the season. I'm glad everyone has figured out that Little Finger is a little obsessed with Cat Stark.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> This makes sense, but I never got the impression that Sansa was bright enough to realize that she's being tested like that. Not going with the Hound, struck me as she's too fearful of him. And heading Littlefingers advice, are you saying she's afraid that Littlefinger will go back to Joffrey if she decides to run? Again, I don't get the impression she could figure that out. Maybe it's just bad acting...I don't know.


I think it's precisely _because_ she's not very bright (or at least, she's very naive about the intrigues of court) that this all makes sense. She basically has very simple rules that she follows at all times for all people: don't trust anyone and never give even the appearance of disloyalty. She doesn't try to figure out who might be good, who might be bad, who is trying to trick her or who is trying to help. She just assumes everyone is out to get her. Doesn't take much intelligence to follow those rules.



Steveknj said:


> Some people REALLY need to get a life


I hope not!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

madscientist said:


> I think it's precisely _because_ she's not very bright (or at least, she's very naive about the intrigues of court) that this all makes sense. She basically has very simple rules that she follows at all times for all people: don't trust anyone and never give even the appearance of disloyalty. She doesn't try to figure out who might be good, who might be bad, who is trying to trick her or who is trying to help. She just assumes everyone is out to get her. Doesn't take much intelligence to follow those rules.


This is exactly it. She has lived there for a year and she has made no friends. Has made no allies. Has done nothing to improve her situation. I grant that she has nothing to offer (money, for example), but she could have at least figured out a way to fire a raven out to her family and found the tunnels that Arya used to get out of the castle or something.

She is meek and stupid.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

madscientist said:


> I think it's precisely _because_ she's not very bright (or at least, she's very naive about the intrigues of court) that this all makes sense. She basically has very simple rules that she follows at all times for all people: don't trust anyone and never give even the appearance of disloyalty. She doesn't try to figure out who might be good, who might be bad, who is trying to trick her or who is trying to help. She just assumes everyone is out to get her. Doesn't take much intelligence to follow those rules.


I agree. Sansa isn't smart, but she's smart enough to know that as long as she's in King's Landing, she needs to say she loves it there, loves Joffrey, is eternally loyal, etc. without fail. She can't open up to anyone or her life will be at risk. And she's also smart enough to know that Littlefinger is a weasel.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

madscientist said:


> I think it's precisely _because_ she's not very bright (or at least, she's very naive about the intrigues of court) that this all makes sense. She basically has very simple rules that she follows at all times for all people: don't trust anyone and never give even the appearance of disloyalty. She doesn't try to figure out who might be good, who might be bad, who is trying to trick her or who is trying to help. She just assumes everyone is out to get her. Doesn't take much intelligence to follow those rules.


That makes sense. But I think if I were in her shoes, I'd take any chance to get away from Joffrey. Well, maybe not Littlefinger, but I still think she should have run with the Hound.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Sansa in the series and the books is woefully over matched by the events around her. She is annoying and when she sided with Joffrey over Arya in series (book) 1. I decided that I did not like her at all.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

madscientist said:


> I think it's precisely _because_ she's not very bright (or at least, she's very naive about the intrigues of court) that this all makes sense. She basically has very simple rules that she follows at all times for all people: don't trust anyone and never give even the appearance of disloyalty. She doesn't try to figure out who might be good, who might be bad, who is trying to trick her or who is trying to help. She just assumes everyone is out to get her. Doesn't take much intelligence to follow those rules.


But that's different than realizing she's being tested. That's more paranoia and fear of rocking the boat. If she realized she was being tested, she could have played off that. She's just a scared little girl who thinks it best to just stay where she is because she's fearful of making a move against what she knows. That all makes sense in her reaction to The Hound's offer and Littlefinger. Remember, she has been threatened numerous times already, shown her father's head on the post and so forth.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Sansa completely bought into the fairy tales she was told as a young girl. She believed that one day she would marry a young lord, hopefully one who has fought in battles or in tournaments to match her fairy tale picture of her future. She is trusting to a fault, and has only aspired to be a damsel from one of her fairy tales.

She is ill prepared for the liars in Kings Landing, and her vision of what she thought the world was like has been destroyed. She now trusts nobody, and only prays that if she plays the part the have asked of her that she'll be given some sort of mercy or be let go. Or if Robb wins the war she'd be rescued.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

robojerk said:


> Sansa completely bought into the fairy tales she was told as a young girl. She believed that one day she would marry a young lord, hopefully one who has fought in battles or in tournaments to match her fairy tale picture of her future. She is trusting to a fault, and has only aspired to be a damsel from one of her fairy tales.
> 
> She is ill prepared for the liars in Kings Landing, and her vision of what she thought the world was like has been destroyed. She now trusts nobody, and only prays that if she plays the part the have asked of her that she'll be given some sort of mercy or be let go. Or if Robb wins the war she'd be rescued.


Seems to me she is banking on Rob riding in and rescuing her. I think she was smart in not going with the Hound. What are the chances that she would survive the trip? And what is she going back to? Ned's dead, mom is who-knows-where screwing up something for somebody, Rob is off fighting a war, for all Sansa knows the little bros are fine but they can't do much to protect her. The Hound may be a little sweet on her, but that in itself is scary and the guy has said more than once that all he really likes to do is kill people, which is scary. As long as he's killing the bad guys, that's cool, but as soon as he gets drunk, goes to sleep, sees fire and runs away, gets killed, etc. Sansa is toast. I think in her mind she's relatively safe in the castle and is waiting for Rob to come and get her. That's simple-minded but not necessarily the worst tactic when you don't have any better options. I can see why another person would try to get the hell out of there, but for Sansa, she's done the right thing.


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## Fassade (Apr 8, 2004)

john4200 said:


> As has already been pointed out, this is probably a failure of the choreography combined with the actress being bad at following choreography. I'm not sure which is the greater factor.


Some of this choreography may be intentional just to emphasize how much of an outlier, physical and otherwise, a woman of Brienne's size and stature is in Westeros. At least, for the tournament battle with Lorys, a producer indicated (on HBO Go commentary) that they intentionally set Brienne's movements to be large and somewhat cumbersome compared to Lorys.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

tivoboyjr said:


> Seems to me she is banking on Rob riding in and rescuing her. I think she was smart in not going with the Hound. What are the chances that she would survive the trip? And what is she going back to? Ned's dead, mom is who-knows-where screwing up something for somebody, Rob is off fighting a war, for all Sansa knows the little bros are fine but they can't do much to protect her. The Hound may be a little sweet on her, but that in itself is scary and the guy has said more than once that all he really likes to do is kill people, which is scary. As long as he's killing the bad guys, that's cool, but as soon as he gets drunk, goes to sleep, sees fire and runs away, gets killed, etc. Sansa is toast. I think in her mind she's relatively safe in the castle and is waiting for Rob to come and get her. That's simple-minded but not necessarily the worst tactic when you don't have any better options. I can see why another person would try to get the hell out of there, but for Sansa, she's done the right thing.


Where I disagree with Sansa's thinking is that she's safe in the castle if she doesn't rock the boat. She's just one whim of Joff's away from who knows what fate. Especially now, since she's not even going to be queen-in-name. Though, to be fair she didn't realize that last until after Hound left.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

allan said:


> Where I disagree with Sansa's thinking is that she's safe in the castle if she doesn't rock the boat. She's just one whim of Joff's away from who knows what fate. Especially now, since she's not even going to be queen-in-name. Though, to be fair she didn't realize that last until after Hound left.


I don't think that she thinks she's safe in the castle. She just doesn't have a way out at the moment. Not one that she trusts. Like someone clinging to a tree branch off a cliff. Just because you offer them a hand and say let go of the branch with one hand and grab mine so I can save you. That doesn't mean they won't be too terrified to let go of the branch. They know they are screwed if they don't do something but are too terrified to act.

I am having a hard time dealing with the fact that the show is over for another year and that there is no book on the horizon. I find that to be very depressing. I really love this story.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> Like I mentioned in the other thread Cristina started (by the way...our task for the day is to discuss every aspect of this show before she gets here  )


Uh huh! I see how you are! I watched on my iPad in the hotel this morning but I'm about to watch on my big screen here in a few and then I'll comment on my thoughts and everyone else too.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jakerock said:


> I don't think that she thinks she's safe in the castle.


Agreed. Having a crossbow to her head had to have taught her at least that much.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Uh huh! I see how you are!


Well, someone's got to teach you not to ditch a GoT season finale for a DMB concert


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

jakerock said:


> I am having a hard time dealing with the fact that the show is over for another year and that there is no book on the horizon. I find that to be very depressing. I really love this story.


^This, this, this! Though I could continue reading, since I'm only on the 2nd book. But I like to keep my reading and my watching roughly at the same place, and now there a looong gap before Season 3.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Oh, also....why couldn't Twyin's horse have dropped his load in front of the throne.


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

I was so disappointed with this episode.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Yeah....the Winterhall story is what has me scratching my head. Who burned it and where did all the people laying seige go, and why do the kids need to get out of there? The people laying siege had to know the kids were there because there was a converation had with Stark that brought them up...so one would think the entire point of that operation was to regain Winterhall AND find his brothers!


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Same here, a year is a long time to wait for another ten episodes. I think I am going to buy Book 3 and pick up the story from here. I hope the TV episodes have prepped me enough to jump into the books.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

pmyers said:


> Yeah....the Winterhall story is what has me scratching my head. Who burned it and where did all the people laying seige go, and why do the kids need to get out of there? The people laying siege had to know the kids were there because there was a converation had with Stark that brought them up...so one would think the entire point of that operation was to regain Winterhall AND find his brothers!


They didn't know the kids were safe in the tunnels. They probably found the burned bodies and assumed (or were told by the ironmen) that they were the Starks.

But yeah, I'm just baffled about how that all took place.

On another topic, anyone have any idea what Stannis saw in the fire? They showed an extreme closeup of the reflection in his eye, but I couldn't make it out.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

dtivouser said:


> Same here, a year is a long time to wait for another ten episodes. I think I am going to buy Book 3 and pick up the story from here. I hope the TV episodes have prepped me enough to jump into the books.


You realize that will do is allow you to catch up to the author, and then you'll have a HUGE wait for each followup book


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> They didn't know the kids were safe in the tunnels. They probably found the burned bodies and assumed (or were told by the ironmen) that they were the Starks.
> 
> But yeah, I'm just baffled about how that all took place...


Furthermore, how would they have survived and/or not realized the place was being burned? How did the old man not catch fire?

That whole thing baffles me.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> There were easily several hundred of them...maybe more than 1000. If you pause at the scene where the rider in back on the white horse just becomes visible. In both sides of the screen you can see the army extending off well into the distance.
> 
> Edit: Plus, they're pretty nasty if you don't have fire handy to torch them with.


Nah. Watch closely. There are way less than a hunert of them. The rest are just copy/paste.

(Notice how the bare chested guy keeps showing up in the same column from the same angle.)


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Fassade said:


> Some of this choreography may be intentional just to emphasize how much of an outlier, physical and otherwise, a woman of Brienne's size and stature is in Westeros. At least, for the tournament battle with Lorys, a producer indicated (on HBO Go commentary) that they intentionally set Brienne's movements to be large and somewhat cumbersome compared to Lorys.


If that is true (and the producer was not just covering for the actress being bad at following the choreography), then it was a poor choice of the choreographer.

Brienne's thing is that she is supposed to be as good with a sword as the best male swordsmen. She is as strong as a man, but she is also highly skilled with the sword. Obviously, just being strong is not enough to be able to win sword fights against skilled swordsmen, otherwise the Mountain would win all the tournaments.

If Brienne's movements are "cumbersome" then she is not highly skilled with the sword. What they should have aimed for is to make her fight like Jaime or the Hound -- skilled and strong. When she has on her armor and helm, it should be difficult to tell that she is a woman at all. She should just look like a highly skilled, strong swordsman.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pmyers said:


> Furthermore, how would they have survived and/or not realized the place was being burned? How did the old man not catch fire?
> 
> That whole thing baffles me.


They were hiding in the crypt, a very long series of underground tunnels (we saw it last season when Robert visited Winterfell and wanted to see the tomb of his dead love). The old man was in the Godswood, which seemed to be untouched by the fire. He probably went there to die before all hell broke loose.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> They were hiding in the crypt, a very long series of underground tunnels (we saw it last season when Robert visited Winterfell and wanted to see the tomb of his dead love). The old man was in the Godswood, which seemed to be untouched by the fire. He probably went there to die before all hell broke loose.


ahh ok. I was thinking they were in the stable. I remembered there being a bunch of hay and stuff.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I think some people are focusing way too much on 3 seconds of sword play on a tv show.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> Another option...would she still have support from Penthos without Khal Drago involved?


The guy at Penthos gave her the dragon eggs, so he might help or he might think he deserves to share the dragons.



billypritchard said:


> A group of 80 zombies would be a lot worse if you didn't have any guns, right?


I realize all zombies are different, but can you kill these with guns? I don't think they have flame throwers in Westeros, do they?

Also, the one good thing about a zombie is that it has no brain and wanders pretty aimlessly. These guys have leaders on horses organizing them. Not good. 



madscientist said:


> She just assumes everyone is out to get her. Doesn't take much intelligence to follow those rules.


In Kings Landing this is a pretty wise assumption, IMO. The one person who has treated her well, although I don't think she's been around him much, is Tyrion. Of course, he's out of commission right now, and she probably just thinks he's ugly.

Also, as someone mentioned, If Sansa had gone with the hound, and something had happened to him, no way she could survive in the countryside on her own. Her little sister, on the other hand, seems to be doing pretty well. 



pmyers said:


> Yeah....the Winterhall story is what has me scratching my head. Who burned it and where did all the people laying seige go, and why do the kids need to get out of there? The people laying siege had to know the kids were there because there was a converation had with Stark that brought them up...so one would think the entire point of that operation was to regain Winterhall AND find his brothers!


Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rob didn't order Bastard Bolton to burn his home to the ground, especially since he didn't know Bran and Rickon were "dead." But it must have been him, unless an ironborn or 2 stayed behind and torched it before they left.

I wonder if Marjorie has any idea what she's getting into with Joffrey?


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> But that's different than realizing she's being tested.


I don't think it is. I don't see any difference between "never trusting anyone" and "thinking everyone is testing you". It's the same thing, said slightly differently. Anyway, it's not worth arguing about a turn of phrase from the forum comments, that wasn't even in the show itself. It's clear from the substance of the comments that we're violently agreeing with each other.



pmyers said:


> Yeah....the Winterhall story is what has me scratching my head. Who burned it and where did all the people laying seige go, and why do the kids need to get out of there? The people laying siege had to know the kids were there because there was a converation had with Stark that brought them up...so one would think the entire point of that operation was to regain Winterhall AND find his brothers!


Robb didn't know that the boys appeared to have been killed because Theon killed all the ravens before word could spread. Robb assumed that they were alive and that Theon wouldn't hurt them, because he needed them for ransom. Most likely when Bolton's force got to Winterfell they heard about the killing and "knew" that the boys were dead already. The maester told them to go in case whomever sacked Winterfell came back: we don't know who that was. In any event it's certain that two boys, Osha, and Hodor aren't going to be able to survive long by themselves in a burned out town with everyone else dead and Winter coming. Sending them to the Wall under care of the Night's Watch is actually a great idea (except that the Wall is even more dangerous and the Watch is all up in the North... but the maester doesn't know that).



LordKronos said:


> On another topic, anyone have any idea what Stannis saw in the fire? They showed an extreme closeup of the reflection in his eye, but I couldn't make it out.


I looked very closely and it looked like normal flames to me. I assumed that he was seeing a vision in his mind, not something really manifest in the flames.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I realize all zombies are different, but can you kill these with guns? I don't think they have flame throwers in Westeros, do they?
> 
> Also, the one good thing about a zombie is that it has no brain and wanders pretty aimlessly. These guys have leaders on horses organizing them. Not good.


These zombies seem a lot more in the vein of _I Am Legend_ than _Walking Dead_. They are smart (or at least not mindless) and, if you recall the prologue to the series premier episode, they're fast, strong, and nimble as well.

As you say... not good


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

robojerk said:


> I think some people are focusing way too much on 3 seconds of sword play on a tv show.


Don't you just love TCF? 

And, just so you know, the sword play lasted 2.2 seconds, not 3


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

HBO posted this for people on facebook that liked the series.






I don't know how to embed. Doh. Very funny from the lead singer of Maroon 5.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay in case I type a book, I'll put my thoughts first then go back and try to limit my quotes to just things I _have _to reply to that I didn't already have thoughts on before reading the thread. 

First and foremost, I KNEW they were going to give Tyrion the shaft. I can see this entire SL really pissing me off beyond believe!! Argh. That entire thing just makes me want to stomp my foot across Cercei, Joffrey and Tywin's throat repeatedly!! They cannot get theirs soon enough. Thank God for Shae! At least she's not turning on him in his moment of utter need. He fully expected her too so that was a nice scene between them. And as per usual, Dinklage owns every scene, every facial expression, every line he speaks. Gah, my love of him is endless at this point.

Boy Varys was NOT happy that Baelish got rewarded (I don't like calling him Littlefinger for some reason).. and although my liking of Varys is increasing ten-thousand-fold with every scene he is in with Tyrion, and I know Baelish is not a nice man and cannot be trusted, I can't hate on him. Maybe it's the actor. He's too charming.

As other stated, that entire scene with Joffrey acting like he couldn't go against his vow to Sansa was just them all going through the motions. She was the only one in that room (commoners not included) that didn't realize what was going on until it was done. I do think Baelish would help her, if only to get to Cat. In that, he's probably the most trustworthy person Sansa has now, other than Tyrion. Not that she knows she could trust Tyrion and not that it matters now that he's been exiled to where the F ever they have him. It's creepy seeing Joffrey flattering Margaery too. I really really REALLY hope I don't ever have to watch them get it on.

Ros: I know who you are.
Varys: Unlike your current employer, I protect those that work for me. I don't abuse them to satisfy royal whims or force them to abuse each other.
Ros: How do you know about that?
Varys: I thought you said you knew who I was. 
Heeee! 
I'm in agreement that his potential partner = spy

I can already see Brienne ending up at Kings Landing to make a trade and Sansa is gone. And even if not, what exactly is the exit strategy once she gets there and delivers Jamie. Does anyone really think the Lannisters will allow her to leave with or without Sansa? These people are ruthless and have zero honor. I fear for Brienne at this point.

Oh Robb Robb Robb. Cat saying Walter Frey is a bad man to cross will come back to haunt him. I don't think we, as viewers, have enough background on him to know what he'll do but they keep bringing it up so clearly he's not going to just roll over and accept that Robb is marrying someone else and breaking his word/their agreement. I guess my question is... does Frey have that many men that he might be a threat to Robb's army or to Robb himself? I was under the impression that he just had the bridge they needed for quicker passage and not that he's sitting on thousands of men to help him get justice when he learns this. 
On a side note, I did snicker and smile at Robb's comment, "My father is dead and the only parent I have left has no right to call anybody reckless".... ouch, truth hurts Cat.

Stannis just got creepy. I kind of thought he was really going to strangle her for a minute! Oh _now _he's upset about killing Renly?? He would not have been upset if he had taken Kings Landing and was sitting on the iron throne right now! And clearly this woman showed him something in that fire.

That was a nice speech from Theon. I'm going to be right pissed if his men killed him or took him back to Pyke. I need Robb to be able to face him! Even if he doesn't get to kill him, I want to see the shame in Theon's face as he has to look into Robb's eyes as the traitor he is. He's correct though, get home and he's a coward, go to the wall and Snow would kill him (as far as he knows he's there to do so) and fight and he dies. He certainly has been pretending to be a person he's not and it's too late to do anything else. Suck it, Theon!

Dany's dragons are badass!! Bye bye creepy bald man. I loved that she got a moment with Drogo, real or not. I know he was a necessary death in the story of things but I wish he didn't have to be. I really liked him. Now I have to wonder if we'll ever get anything else from the Dothraki. She really needs to allow the dragons to grow more before she sets sail to Westeros. They can kill a man easily enough but an entire army? Not yet, I would assume. Okay Jorah turning the sword on Ducksauce was far hotter than I think it was intended to be. I had to replay that.  Loved that someone here called the vault being empty. As soon as I saw the key go into the door, I thought the same because of that.

WTF was that with Jaqen? I'm going to be sad if the actor playing him continues to change. I surprisingly really liked the actor. He was great at creeping me out without making me dislike him. Faceless man. Is this the first we've heard of this?? I really want to know how it is he was in the cage thing on the way to the wall.

White Walker army! WTF! Did not see that coming. I thought they were creepers in the night. No wonder the Wildlings want past that wall! I don't blame them! And why didn't they kill Sam? I thought for sure he was a dead man. That pan out was really cool.

AH! Not a year until more!!


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I realize all zombies are different, but can you kill these with guns? I don't think they have flame throwers in Westeros, do they?


Daenerys Stormborn does. But she's not in Westeros at the moment.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Ros: I know who you are.
> Varys: Unlike your current employer, I protect those that work for me. I don't abuse them to satisfy royal whims or force them to abuse each other.
> Ros: How do you know about that?
> Varys: I thought you said you knew who I was.


And the look on Varys's face right before that, when Ros realized he was, er, lacking, was priceless. I'm not even sure what it conveyed, it was so layered.


photoshopgrl said:


> That was a nice speech from Theon.


It was a great speech. And so subversive...earlier in the day, I saw Snow White in which poor Kristin Stewart is made to give a similar speech which rallies the nation to fight and die at her side, and all I could think was "Huh. Not that great a speech."

Theon's speech WAS a great speech, and it was superbly given...but these cutthroats weren't likely to be convinced by ANY words. They were just looking for a way out. And then the punch line (paraphrased):

THUNK!

"Thank the gods. I thought he'd never shut up."

"Hey, it was a great speech. I wanted to hear how it ended."



What that scene brilliantly shows is the tragedy of Theon...he has the tools to be a great leader, but doesn't have a clue how to use them.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> WTF was that with Jaqen? I'm going to be sad if the actor playing him continues to change. I surprisingly really liked the actor. He was great at creeping me out without making me dislike him. Faceless man. Is this the first we've heard of this?? I really want to know how it is he was in the cage thing on the way to the wall.


The Nights Watch collects prisoners to take the black and have their crimes forgiven. It keeps the kingdoms from having to give up men they actually want to have around. Ja'quen clearly was a prisoner in Kings Landing, though we do not know how he came to be such, or if he were wearing that particular face when he was first imprisoned.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ereth said:


> The Nights Watch collects prisoners to take the black and have their crimes forgiven. It keeps the kingdoms from having to give up men they actually want to have around. Ja'quen clearly was a prisoner in Kings Landing, though we do not know how he came to be such, or if he were wearing that particular face when he was first imprisoned.


Yes, I knew that was why he was going to the wall. I guess you answered my real question that I didn't word well enough. I want to know how he came to be going to the wall if he's a faceless man. You'd think it would be hard to capture and try for a crime that way, no?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

A man wonders if he thought being in that particular caravan would be to his benefit somehow...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

pendragn said:


> The white walkers are the undead. That was shown last season when the dead man became a white walker at the wall.





cherry ghost said:


> The undead are called
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Thank you for clarifying this. I thought I was right but then got confused when pendragon said they were the same.



netringer said:


> Yeah. That was me.


:up:



cheesesteak said:


> I hate the way Joffrey sits on the throne, slumped to the side like he's too cool to sit up straight.
> I hope Tyrion gets his revenge next season.


Joffrey sitting like that just gives me one more reason to want to watch him die a slow agonizing death!
I'm not sure how Tyrion comes back from this. His entire family have turned on him. I think if he weren't a Lannister, he'd be dead. I'm still not even sure why that fact matters to them at this point. 



Steveknj said:


> Jon Snow is still an idiot!


While I don't disagree with Snow being an idiot... I don't recall him doing anything in this particular episode to warrant that remark. IMO, he did the only thing he could do!



LordKronos said:


> Will there be consequences? There was nobody around but the minister. It almost seemed like a secret wedding so they can make their bond without anyone knowing. Perhaps he'll go through with the arranged marriage as a sham.


oooooooh! I hadn't thought of that. Maybe Robb is smarter than we give him credit for!



NoThru22 said:


> I don't think she cut his nuts off. I think she put her sword into his stomach so that he would bleed out nice and slow.


Funny, on first viewing I thought she went for the groin as well. Once I read here others thought stomach I paid more attention on second viewing and yeah, I agree she hit him in the gut. Jamie's face was hilarious during that entire thing though!



robojerk said:


> I think some people are focusing way too much on 3 seconds of sword play on a tv show.


This!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> A man wonders if he thought being in that particular caravan would be to his benefit somehow...


:up:  Say no more.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I loved when Theon asked the Maester to send ravens to his sister and father, and he said, "You killed all the ravens."


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I can already see Brienne ending up at Kings Landing to make a trade and Sansa is gone. And even if not, what exactly is the exit strategy once she gets there and delivers Jamie. Does anyone really think the Lannisters will allow her to leave with or without Sansa? These people are ruthless and have zero honor. I fear for Brienne at this point.


This struck me when she began her journey with Jaime. It doesn't seem like this will end well for her. I assume Brienne is approaching this as the duty-bound soldier and just following orders.



photoshopgrl said:


> WTF


Is that the airport code for Winterfell?



photoshopgrl said:


> AH! Not a year until more!!


I know! I'm glad Breaking Bad is coming back soon.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> :up:  Say no more.


There's no more to say, really...it's just a thought that suddenly struck me.

If so, he certainly was/is playing a long and dangerous game!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

tivoboyjr said:


> Is that the airport code for Winterfell?


HAHA! This made me laugh unexpectedly and loudly.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Heh...we should come up with airport codes for all the GoT locations, and drive the people who think we're cliquish even more crazy.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> AH! Not a year until more!!


If they follow the past pattern it should only be ten months. Sounds better than a year. I may have to reread at least one of the books.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And the look on Varys's face right before that, when Ros realized he was, er, lacking, was priceless. I'm not even sure what it conveyed, it was so layered.


YES! It was a great expression!



Rob Helmerichs said:


> It was a great speech. And so subversive...earlier in the day, *I saw Snow White* in which poor Kristin Stewart is made to give a similar speech which rallies the nation to fight and die at her side, and all I could think was "Huh. Not that great a speech."


Now I'm just sad for you.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Heh...we should come up with airport codes for all the GoT locations, and drive the people who think we're cliquish even more crazy.


Ha! Let's do it!



Rickvz said:


> If they follow the past pattern it should only be ten months. Sounds better than a year. I may have to reread at least one of the books.


10 months might as well be 10 years the day after the season ends.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Let's just hope it is only 10 months. Sometimes HBO takes a lot longer for their stuff too.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I really thought Tyrion was going to get some props for his role in the defense of King's Landing. The soldiers really rallied around him. I thought that would be worth something.y


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I guess my question is... does Frey have that many men that he might be a threat to Robb's army or to Robb himself? I was under the impression that he just had the bridge they needed for quicker passage and not that he's sitting on thousands of men to help him get justice when he learns this.


It's got to be at least a decent amount. When Cat negotiated with him, she said he agreed to give Robb his men for the war, except for the 400 he keeps to defend the bridge. I took it as 400 was just a small part of his army. So I'd guess 1000-2000 troops.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Now let's see if Cercie has as an easier time with The Hand = Daddy. I bet not. 
Besides, Tywin can't stay in King's Landing and serve as Hand. Robb's army is bearing down on Lannister's.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> That was a nice speech from Theon. I'm going to be right pissed if his men killed him or took him back to Pyke. I need Robb to be able to face him! Even if he doesn't get to kill him, I want to see the shame in Theon's face as he has to look into Robb's eyes as the traitor he is. He's correct though, get home and he's a coward, go to the wall and Snow would kill him (as far as he knows he's there to do so) and fight and he dies.


Actually I don't know that Jon would kill him. Taking the black means your past is forgotten and Jon's vows mean a lot to him. That would definitely be an interesting scene. That was definitely Theon's best bet for a longer life, in any event.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And the look on Varys's face right before that, when Ros realized he was, er, lacking, was priceless. I'm not even sure what it conveyed, it was so layered.


I thought it was very well done that Ros was not scared of him at all UNTIL she found out he was castrated.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Daenerys Stormborn does. But she's not in Westeros at the moment.


All I can say to this is hmmmm......makes me think about what might happen in how Dany might get the iron throne. And I'm probably totally wrong!!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

We have flaming arrows, dragons, and wildfire (aka firewater ). CGI budgetary restrictions aside, humans are not helpless against the White Walkers!


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

madscientist said:


> Actually I don't know that Jon would kill him. Taking the black means your past is forgotten and *Jon's vows mean a lot to him.* That would definitely be an interesting scene. That was definitely Theon's best bet for a longer life, in any event.


I don't know. He almost left the black once to join Robb and if not for his friends, probably would have. If he's under the impression that Theon killed his brothers or sacked his hometown, me might have at him. Remember Jon is very impulsive and has a very soft spot for Bran if I recall from the first season (I might not be remembering correctly). Out north of the wall, a convenient accident could occur, couldn't it?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> All I can say to this is hmmmm......makes me think about what might happen in how Dany might get the iron throne. And I'm probably totally wrong!!


I know what you are thinking, and it makes a certain amount of sense. I have not read the books nor heard from anyone who has on this matter, but


Spoiler



based purely on the titles of the books (book 5 is "A Dance with Dragons", book 6 is "The Winds of Winter") I assumed it was going to happen in the opposite order.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Anubys said:


> We have flaming arrows, dragons, and wildfire (aka firewater ). CGI budgetary restrictions aside, humans are not helpless against the White Walkers!


We shouldn't make any assumptions about how to kill a white walker. We have only seen wights killed with fire.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> I know what you are thinking, and it makes a certain amount of sense. I have not read the books nor heard from anyone who has on this matter, but
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



I only thought this because I know Ereth has read the books and he had a little wink in there. Makes sense when you think about it.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

billypritchard said:


> We shouldn't make any assumptions about how to kill a white walker. We have only seen wights killed with fire.


True, but fire seems a pretty good way to kill anything. And we know the wildlings burn their dead before they can turn.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

allan said:


> True, but fire seems a pretty good way to kill anything. And we know the wildlings burn their dead before they can turn.


Again White Walkers and Wights are not the same thing. Fire and burning dead bodies stops them from becoming Wights but not White Walkers. As viewers, we do not know how they became, as far as I know.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Again White Walkers and Wights are not the same thing. Fire and burning dead bodies stops them from becoming Wights but not White Walkers. As viewers, we do not know how they became, as far as I know.


Actually, as viewers, we don't even know that there IS a difference between wights and white walkers, do we? I don't think the term "wight" has even been introduced. For all we know a white walker (like the guy on the horse) is just an older, more deteriorated wight (or something magical like, as they kill they steal the lifeforce and use it to form their more advanced form of looking more like a monster than a dead body). I'm assuming the only reason we know the difference is because someone has injected some book knowledge into this discussion.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> Actually, as viewers, we don't even know that there IS a difference between wights and white walkers, do we? I don't think the term "wight" has even been introduced. For all we know a white walker (like the guy on the horse) is just an older, more deteriorated wight (or something magical like, as they kill they steal the lifeforce and use it to form their more advanced form of looking more like a monster than a dead body). I'm assuming the only reason we know the difference is because someone has injected some book knowledge into this discussion.


They injected the name wight but we knew there was a difference between the two. At least I did before it was given a name.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> The undead are called
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


You're right. I've read the books and got confused because they've changed the name. In the book the White Walkers are called "The Others."

I did some research (which will likely spoil things) and it all makes sense now.

tk


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> They injected the name wight but we knew there was a difference between the two. At least I did before it was given a name.


Can you please explain how you knew there were a difference, other than the option I just posed of a white walker being a more advanced/developed form of the wight?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> Can you please explain how you knew there were a difference, other than the option I just posed of a white walker being a more advanced/developed form of the wight?


I just knew they were two separate entities. I thought the White Walkers were there forever and may be another species of being. Everything has pointed to this from the very first 5 minutes of the series. I guess I had it in my head they were "predator-like" beings, more like an actual monster/alien. The wights or "ghosts" or whatever they called the thing that Jon Snow battled at the wall and killed with fire, they are obviously reanimated humans.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

FYI, Joffrey sits on the throne that way because the throne is made to be uncomfortable. In the books it goes into much more detail how it's uncomfortable and in fact some have cut themselves on it.

Also, I am watching Dr Who and was amused to find that the bald warlock guy was in the Dr Who episode where Queen Victoria is attacked by an alien werewolf and then forms Torchwood.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> FYI, Joffrey sits on the throne that way because the throne is made to be uncomfortable. In the books it goes into much more detail how it's uncomfortable and in fact some have cut themselves on it.
> 
> Also, I am watching Dr Who and was amused to find that the bald warlock guy was in the Dr Who episode where Queen Victoria is attacked by an alien werewolf and then forms Torchwood.


Book comment:



Spoiler



I just got to where Joffrey cut himself on the throne. Not as good as an Imp-slap, but I still chuckled at it.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I just knew they were two separate entities. I thought the White Walkers were there forever and may be another species of being. Everything has pointed to this from the very first 5 minutes of the series. I guess I had it in my head they were "predator-like" beings, more like an actual monster/alien. The wights or "ghosts" or whatever they called the thing that Jon Snow battled at the wall and killed with fire, they are obviously reanimated humans.


I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, other than lucky guess. What we saw of them in the first episode, they looks like like humans. The girl looked completely normal other than a busted up mouth and glowing blue eyes. The one that cut off the guys head was completely shadowed, so you could not see any non-human details other than the glowing blue eyes. As far as we could tell there, they were both the same type of creature. And the girl was obviously a reanimated corpse, since we saw her dead body pinned to the tree when that one guy (that ned beheaded) turned around.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, other than lucky guess. What we saw of them in the first episode, they looks like like humans. The girl looked completely normal other than a busted up mouth and glowing blue eyes. The one that cut off the guys head was completely shadowed, so you could not see any non-human details other than the glowing blue eyes. As far as we could tell there, they were both the same type of creature. And the girl was obviously a reanimated corpse, since we saw her dead body pinned to the tree when that one guy (that ned beheaded) turned around.


The girl WAS one of the humans that reanimated! The shadow creature was just that... a creature. You never saw them or their faces, only shadows and glowing eyes. The girl was among the camp that was slaughtered and she was the one hanging that he turned around almost into. She then later came back. They have been separated since the start, I don't think it was a lucky guess on my part!


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, other than lucky guess. What we saw of them in the first episode, they looks like like humans. The girl looked completely normal other than a busted up mouth and glowing blue eyes. The one that cut off the guys head was completely shadowed, so you could not see any non-human details other than the glowing blue eyes. As far as we could tell there, they were both the same type of creature. And the girl was obviously a reanimated corpse, since we saw her dead body pinned to the tree when that one guy (that ned beheaded) turned around.


I saw the first episode before I read the book(s) and I could completely tell that the girl hanging in the tree and the white walker were not one in the same. The white walker was much taller, quicker (the girls was just dead), and made an ungodly shriek, similar as to what we heard in the last episode. By fact that it remained masked and shadowed it lead me to believe that the producers wanted to indicate that it was different and mysterious and not human.

And to me, it was obvious that the white walker was a predator, and was the one who had killed the humans.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

I can see that they have perhaps not been 100% explicit about the differences between a white walker and a wight (zombie). That being said, there have been pretty clear differences in how they've been portrayed in the show. Clearly there are reanimated corpses (ie the one that attacked Mormont) that are very zombie-esque except with a bit more purpose. Then we have also seen the white walkers, with their glowing blue eyes and much more normal actions/interactions.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> The girl WAS one of the humans that reanimated! The shadow creature was just that... a creature. You never saw them or their faces, only shadows and glowing eyes. The girl was among the camp that was slaughtered and she was the one hanging that he turned around almost into. She then later came back. They have been separated since the start, I don't think it was a lucky guess on my part!


But the "shadow creature" showed no signs of being different than the girl. You couldn't see any features because it was dark and in the shadow, but what you could see was that it had the same blue eyes as her, and the silhouette otherwise looked like a normal human. I see nothing there to indicate that they are 2 different types of creatures.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

FWIW, until it was mentioned here, I always thought they were all the same. White Walkers are walking dead with glowing blue eyes.

While my memory isn't the best, I can't recall any instance so far that differentiated between the two "types".


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

audioscience said:


> I saw the first episode before I read the book(s) and I could completely tell that the girl hanging in the tree and the white walker were not one in the same. The white walker was much taller, quicker (the girls was just dead), ...


I am much taller and quicker than my 9 year old daughter; but I'm pretty sure we're the same species


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Holy crap. I've watched that opening scene at least 25 times. And it wasn't until just now (after having watched it at least 5 times today) that I just now realized....while there was that one shadowed white walker cutting off the dudes head, there was a 2nd one in the background, less shadowed and more monster like. How the hell could I watch that scene so many times without even seeing him?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

audioscience said:


> I saw the first episode before I read the book(s) and I could completely tell that the girl hanging in the tree and the white walker were not one in the same.


Same here



LordKronos said:


> But the "shadow creature" showed no signs of being different than the girl. You couldn't see any features because it was dark and in the shadow, but what you could see was that it had the same blue eyes as her, and the silhouette otherwise looked like a normal human. I see nothing there to indicate that they are 2 different types of creatures.


Even so, did you not see the difference in the last scene this week? It was pretty clear that the two things on horseback were different than those walking/shuffling.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Even so, did you not see the difference in the last scene this week? It was pretty clear that the two things on horseback were different than those walking/shuffling.


Yeah, we clearly see a difference this week. Though like I said, how do we know it's not something mystical like the zombies stealking the life force from their victims until they gradually take their final form (that idea has been used in movies at least a few times before). Of course, that appears not to be the case, since book readers have indicated they are clearly 2 different creatures, so that theory is moot.

But that aside, my point was that everyone seems to have known before this episode that there were 2 different types of the creature, and I'm just not sure how.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> FYI, Joffrey sits on the throne that way because the throne is made to be uncomfortable. In the books it goes into much more detail how it's uncomfortable and in fact some have cut themselves on it.
> 
> Also, I am watching Dr Who and was amused to find that the bald warlock guy was in the Dr Who episode where Queen Victoria is attacked by an alien werewolf and then forms Torchwood.


http://www.chipchick.com/2012/06/ir...:+ChipChick+(Chip+Chick)&utm_content=My+Yahoo


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> FYI, Joffrey sits on the throne that way because the throne is made to be uncomfortable. In the books it goes into much more detail how it's uncomfortable and in fact some have cut themselves on it.


This is why I need to read the books. I feel like we are missing out on so much back story it's ruining the experience the author intended. This season seems so much under par compared to the first for me. It just didn't have any Jaw dropping moments for me. Does any thing this season compare to Bran interrupting Cerci and Jamie? How about Ned losing his head? The Dragons hatching? It just seems so rushed and condensed.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Barmat said:


> This is why I need to read the books. I feel like we are missing out on so much back story it's ruining the experience the author intended. This season seems so much under par compared to the first for me. It just didn't have any Jaw dropping moments for me. Does any thing this season compare to Bran interrupting Cerci and Jamie? How about Ned losing his head? The Dragons hatching? It just seems so rushed and condensed.


I would say the book itself does not contain the same jaw-dropping aspects as the first book. It's excellent points lie in the Tyrion KL scenes of him outwitting Cersei or Littlefinger, developing a 'friendship' with Varys, and then ultimately saving the city with his cunning.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Wait, Renly getting killed by a shadow monster wasn't a high point?


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> A man wonders if he thought being in that particular caravan would be to his benefit somehow...


Are you trying to say that sometimes you create your own luck?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

billypritchard said:


> Wait, Renly getting killed by a shadow monster wasn't a high point?


Yeah, I think there was tons of stuff this season on par with last season. Renly's death was just awesome. The whole battle of episode 9 was amazing (especialy the wildfire). The finale ending was great. I thought the introduction of Stannis was handled nicely. Tyrions role this season was better than last. We saw Joffrey not just get a slap, but a cowpie. Seeing Harrenhall was just impressive. And I loved the interactions between Tywin and Arya.

One thing I have noticed is that the first season felt a little deeper to me, in that I caught a lot more stuff on my second time through. This season I'm catching most stuff on my first watch. However, I think a lot of that is just that I've got a much better understanding of the show, who is who, whats going on, etc than I did in the first season.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Holy crap. I've watched that opening scene at least 25 times. And it wasn't until just now (after having watched it at least 5 times today) that I just now realized....while there was that one shadowed white walker cutting off the dudes head, there was a 2nd one in the background, less shadowed and more monster like. How the hell could I watch that scene so many times without even seeing him?


I don't remember that either. The problem is your'e focused on the white walker holding the head.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhonEowCBUw&feature=related[/media]


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Barmat said:


> This is why I need to read the books. I feel like we are missing out on so much back story it's ruining the experience the author intended. This season seems so much under par compared to the first for me. It just didn't have any Jaw dropping moments for me. Does any thing this season compare to Bran interrupting Cerci and Jamie? How about Ned losing his head? The Dragons hatching? It just seems so rushed and condensed.


Don't forget, "A crown for a king." One of my favorite scenes from season one.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

billypritchard said:


> I can see that they have perhaps not been 100% explicit about the differences between a white walker and a wight (zombie). That being said, there have been pretty clear differences in how they've been portrayed in the show. *Clearly there are reanimated corpses (ie the one that attacked Mormont) that are very zombie-esque except with a bit more purpose. Then we have also seen the white walkers, with their glowing blue eyes and much more normal actions/interactions.*


This says it better than I could.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Barmat said:


> This is why I need to read the books. I feel like we are missing out on so much back story it's ruining the experience the author intended. This season seems so much under par compared to the first for me. It just didn't have any Jaw dropping moments for me. Does any thing this season compare to Bran interrupting Cerci and Jamie? How about Ned losing his head? The Dragons hatching? It just seems so rushed and condensed.


I agree we didn't get as many OMG! moments this season but even so, I thought it was just as good and just as short.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

billypritchard said:


> I can see that they have perhaps not been 100% explicit about the differences between a white walker and a wight (zombie). That being said, there have been pretty clear differences in how they've been portrayed in the show. Clearly there are reanimated corpses (ie the one that attacked Mormont) that are very zombie-esque except with a bit more purpose. *Then we have also seen the white walkers, with their glowing blue eyes* and much more normal actions/interactions.


Except in episode 1, the girl (who was clearly a "zombie") also had the glowing blue eyes. However, when John snow fought off the zombie at the wall, that one didn't have glowing eyes as far as I can tell. Now sure what to make of that inconsistency.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> One thing I have noticed is that the first season felt a little deeper to me, in that I caught a lot more stuff on my second time through. This season I'm catching most stuff on my first watch. However, I think a lot of that is just that I've got a much better understanding of the show, who is who, whats going on, etc than I did in the first season.


I think you have it exactly right.

The first season was a lot harder because I would spend the first 5-10 seconds of every scene wondering "who the hell is that again?" or trying to tell the difference between Theon and Robb or Jon. On my second watch - much like the second season - I didn't have that anxiety.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Except in episode 1, the girl (who was clearly a "zombie") also had the glowing blue eyes. However, when John snow fought off the zombie at the wall, that one didn't have glowing eyes as far as I can tell. Now sure what to make of that inconsistency.


In the books, only the white walkers are described as having glowing blue eyes.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Even so, did you not see the difference in the last scene this week? It was pretty clear that the two things on horseback were different than those walking/shuffling.





LordKronos said:


> Yeah, we clearly see a difference this week. Though like I said, how do we know it's not something mystical like the zombies stealking the life force from their victims until they gradually take their final form (that idea has been used in movies at least a few times before). Of course, that appears not to be the case, since book readers have indicated they are clearly 2 different creatures, so that theory is moot.
> 
> But that aside, my point was that everyone seems to have known before this episode that there were 2 different types of the creature, and I'm just not sure how.


Non-book reader here. It seems to me that it is being presented to us as if there are at least two different forms of "monsters." One is along the lines of the standard issue zombie and the others are the (as someone else described it) predator-like things, which are big, nimble, sleek but scary looking and may be undead but don't shuffle around with body parts falling off like zombies. (The thing that Jon Snow killed seemed more zombie-ish than predator-ish, but I probably need to see it again.) I also don't know if the thing on the horse at the end of the S2 finale is the same as the predator-looking dudes we saw earlier (going back to S1E1) with clothes on. I assume so, but can't say for sure. It will be interesting to see if Sam survives. If any of them were zombies as we know zombies to be, they'd have made Sam a tasty mid-afternoon snack



billypritchard said:


> Wait, Renly getting killed by a shadow monster wasn't a high point?


That was a "meh" for me. The book-readers seem much more attached to Renly than non-readers. He was on screen for what, 10 minutes, and at least eight of those were having sex with his brother-in-law. It's hard to get too invested in the character when that's all you see of him. I know he was "beloved" and "popular" because book-readers keep saying that, not because I saw it for myself on the show. If Renly's death was supposed to impact me like Ned's did - it didn't. Not even close. The smoke monster came and went so it didn't make much of an impression on me. If it's so easy to create magical killers, why stop with killing Renly?


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I think you have it exactly right.
> 
> The first season was a lot harder because I would spend the first 5-10 seconds of every scene wondering "who the hell is that again?" or trying to tell the difference between Theon and Robb or Jon. On my second watch - much like the second season - I didn't have that anxiety.


It was probably episode five or so before I realized Theon, Robb and Jon weren't the same guy.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Dead people don't seem to turn into zombies south of the wall (well, except for the couple who did right AT the wall). I wonder why.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Except in episode 1, the girl (who was clearly a "zombie") also had the glowing blue eyes. However, when John snow fought off the zombie at the wall, that one didn't have glowing eyes as far as I can tell. Now sure what to make of that inconsistency.


The zombie that attacked Mormont had blue eyes. I remember noting it when I watched it because it connected him to the White Walkers in the show's prologue.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Dead people don't seem to turn into zombies south of the wall (well, except for the couple who did right AT the wall). I wonder why.


The wall is more than just a physical barrier, magic was also used to keep "something" from coming south of the wall.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I only thought this because I know Ereth has read the books and he had a little wink in there. Makes sense when you think about it.


Ereth was not hinting at anything whatsoever. Ereth was simply making a joke about "flamethrowers" and "tiny flame breathing dragons". No more should be inferred from that statement.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

robojerk said:


> The wall is more than just a physical barrier, magic was also used to keep "something" from coming south of the wall.


That makes sense; although I don't recall that being mentioned.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

tivoboyjr said:


> I also don't know if the thing on the horse at the end of the S2 finale is the same as the predator-looking dudes we saw earlier (going back to S1E1) with clothes on.


Take a look at the one behind him, on the white horse.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> The zombie that attacked Mormont had blue eyes. I remember noting it when I watched it because it connected him to the White Walkers in the show's prologue.


On reviewing it again, they may be colored blue, but you could only tell in a few shots because most of the time he was in shadow, and they certainly didn't glow blue like in episode 1.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> It's got to be at least a decent amount. When Cat negotiated with him, she said he agreed to give Robb his men for the war, except for the 400 he keeps to defend the bridge. I took it as 400 was just a small part of his army. So I'd guess 1000-2000 troops.


Just Frey's sons and grandsons could make a sizable army. 



netringer said:


> Now let's see if Cercie has as an easier time with The Hand = Daddy. I bet not. Besides Tywin can't stay in Winterfell. Robb's army is bearing down on Lanister's.


I doubt if anyone will do much with Winterfell since it's burned down. And where the heck is Robb's army? Cat was giving Renley a hard time for not getting out there and fighting, but if Robb's been fighting we haven't seen it.



pendragn said:


> You're right. I've read the books and got confused because they've changed the name. In the book the White Walkers are called "The Others."
> 
> I did some research (which will likely spoil things) and it all makes sense now.
> 
> tk


I'd love to see this research, since I read all 5 books and it's still clear as mud to me. What about


Spoiler



coldhands--the guy with Bran? What is he?





tivoboyjr said:


> Non-book reader here. The book-readers seem much more attached to Renly than non-readers.


I thought just the opposite. I never liked Renley (book reader) but it seemed like lots of people here were rooting for him. 



tivoboyjr said:


> It was probably episode five or so before I realized Theon, Robb and Jon weren't the same guy.


:up:  this (I hadn't read the books yet then)


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

What I want to know is why the White Walkers allow some to live. Like the pilot. That kid watches the WW behead his brother and tossed his head right over to him. Why was he not next? If this is something we never know I'll be upset. That's the only reason why I think poor Sam might not be toast.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I think you have it exactly right.
> 
> The first season was a lot harder because I would spend the first 5-10 seconds of every scene wondering "who the hell is that again?" or trying to tell the difference between Theon and Robb or Jon.





tivoboyjr said:


> It was probably episode five or so before I realized Theon, Robb and Jon weren't the same guy.


OMG, thank you. I am notoriously bad at recognizing people. I'm always thinking 1 person is someone else, or 2 or 3 different people are the same person. That and forgetting what names go with who and what their stories are. This show introduced a lot of different characters, which really exploited my weakness with names/faces, but especially with those 3 characters. Glad I wasn't the only one.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LOL I hate to admit this but I separated Jon Snow from the others quickly (mostly because of the bastard and him going to the wall) but for quite a few episodes I didn't know the difference between Theon and Robb. I also didn't even remember Rickon for most of the first season.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> What I want to know is why the White Walkers allow some to live. Like the pilot. That kid watches the WW behead his brother and tossed his head right over to him. Why was he not next? If this is something we never know I'll be upset. That's the only reason why I think poor Sam might not be toast.


They always leave the most afraid one to go and tell stories about how frightening they are. They are masters of marketing.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> They always leave the most afraid one to go and tell stories about how frightening they are. They are masters of marketing.


Ha! :up:


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> I thought just the opposite. I never liked Renley (book reader) but it seemed like lots of people here were rooting for him.


Well, to put it a different way, I saw Renly as a very minor character, but the impression I get is that he wasn't so minor in the books.



LordKronos said:


> OMG, thank you. I am notoriously bad at recognizing people. I'm always thinking 1 person is someone else, or 2 or 3 different people are the same person. That and forgetting what names go with who and what their stories are. This show introduced a lot of different characters, which really exploited my weakness with names/faces, but especially with those 3 characters. Glad I wasn't the only one.


I was exaggerating a little when I said I didn't know the difference between them until episode 5, but only a little. And really, if Jon and Robb weren't in different places, I'd still be getting them mixed up.

It always annoys me when characters look similar who aren't related and don't have to look alike. Seems like a flaw in casting to me - it adds confusion that doesn't need to exist. That's not limited to GOT, just a general complaint about movies and shows. I've had several "Oh, that's a different guy!?!" moments myself.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Put me down as another one who thinks they all look alike. If someone mentions a name, I'm okay. Otherwise, half the time I'm asking "which one is this?".

As for Renly, I was rooting for him because I thought he was the best of a bad lot (even though Stannis, as the elder, had a better claim), and that + the element of surprise jarred me when he met his smoky end. But I was nowhere near as invested as I was in Ned Stark, and the shock, while present, wasn't even close to that one.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I doubt if anyone will do much with Winterfell since it's burned down. And where the heck is Robb's army? Cat was giving Renley a hard time for not getting out there and fighting, but if Robb's been fighting.


I meant King's Landing. We know The Hand has to stay in King's Landing, because Ned did. Tywin can't lead his army if he's in KL.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Yeah, I think there was tons of stuff this season on par with last season. Renly's death was just awesome. The whole battle of episode 9 was amazing (especialy the wildfire). The finale ending was great. I thought the introduction of Stannis was handled nicely. Tyrions role this season was better than last. We saw Joffrey not just get a slap, but a cowpie. Seeing Harrenhall was just impressive. And I loved the interactions between Tywin and Arya.


Oh, and how could I forget the killing of the bastards. That was a huge OMG moment, at least to me.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

allan said:


> Put me down as another one who thinks they all look alike. If someone mentions a name, I'm okay. Otherwise, half the time I'm asking "which one is this?".


You still think this when you see them? 
Maybe it's because I'm a girl but I can now tell them apart easily. Theon is ugly. Robb is not. Jon Snow is the prettiest of them all.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> You still think this when you see them?
> Maybe it's because I'm a girl but I can now tell them apart easily. Theon is ugly. Robb is not. Jon Snow is the prettiest of them all.


I know you didn't ask me, but since I'm one of those who could not tell them apart at all at the beginning, I'll answer: I don't get them mixed up anymore. And it's not because of the location. When Robb and Theon were together, I could tell them apart.

I started telling Robb and Theon apart after Theon's big scene with Ros (not when she was leaving, but before, when they were doing it). It took me a lot longer to tell Robb and Jon apart.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> I'd love to see this research, since I read all 5 books and it's still clear as mud to me. What about
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I'm not sure, but...


Spoiler



I think it's Jon's uncle (Ned's brother, Benjen Stark) - the ranger who disappeared beyond the wall early in the series. I think he got somewhat infected by the wights but hasn't fully succumbed, or something.



Again, just a theory.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

There's a thread for book reader's, this stuff probably belongs in there.......
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=486826


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

Clarification from those who read the books are they white walkers or wight walkers? I assumed the later since the beginning but have no idea.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

marksman said:


> Clarification from those who read the books are they white walkers or wight walkers? I assumed the later since the beginning but have no idea.


In the books they're called, "The Others." Wights are called wights.

Tk


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

pendragn said:


> In the books they're called, "The Others."


They are called "white walkers" or "the Others" in the books. The terms mean the same thing (and different than "wights").


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## frankmint (Feb 1, 2004)

Add me to the list of non-book readers that was very clear that there were two types of threats in the north....

I was disappointed to hear that the leader-like zombie things shown at the end of this season are "others" or "white walkers". I expected something less...physical or visual.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

frankmint said:


> I was disappointed to hear that the leader-like zombie things shown at the end of this season are "others" or "white walkers". I expected something less...physical or visual.


Well, we have not seen white walkers fight and die, so it may be premature to call them "zombie things".


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

When Stannis said, I killed Renley, did he mean that he actually was there in some sense, or just that he ordered it done by Davos and Red Lady? 

Did Cercei just let Roz go after the battle since Tyrion got hurt? I guess the threat was just in case anything happened to Joffrey, but I would expect Cercei to kill her anyway, or at least maim her a little. 

I thought Bran's little wheelbarrow was kind of odd. It won't work too well over the rough terrain they will be traveling on the way to the wall, and who's going to carry it when Hodor has to put Bran on his shoulders?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

stellie93......
speaking of, we got zip on Davos in the finale!  I just realized we have no idea if he lived or died. Damnit!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> When Stannis said, I killed Renley, did he mean that he actually was there in some sense, or just that he ordered it done by Davos and Red Lady?


The latter.


stellie93 said:


> I thought Bran's little wheelbarrow was kind of odd. It won't work too well over the rough terrain they will be traveling on the way to the wall, and who's going to carry it when Hodor has to put Bran on his shoulders?


It's roads all the way, and probably fairly good roads...note that the convoy headed for the wall with Arya had carts, including the prison cart.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I've got a question for book readers about the House of the Undying and how Dany's visit there plays out in the books:



Spoiler



I was reading this summary:
http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Episodes/Entry/Valar_Morghulis/Book_Spoilers/#Book_to_Screen

I know from that article and from previous discussions in this forum that in the book her dragons were never taken from her, Duck Sauce never killled the other 13, etc. That link explains in great detail all the stuff that went on in the House of the Undying in the book. However, what it doesn't explain is why Dany went there in the first place. If they never took her dragons, what was her point in going there?


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Spoiler



They were the only ones she hadn't tried to give her ships. In fact she got "lost" in there and in the center instead of being locked up, they put her into some sort of trance and were draining the life from her. It was only when Drogo set fire to the heart that was beating in the room that she woke up and got out. Then the temple blew up.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> stellie93......
> speaking of, we got zip on Davos in the finale!  I just realized we have no idea if he lived or died. Damnit!


They wanted to give you two shows of cliff hangers for next year because this series is at least twice as good as a normal one!


----------



## Mr. Merkin (May 6, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> I just knew they were two separate entities. I thought the White Walkers were there forever and may be another species of being. Everything has pointed to this from the very first 5 minutes of the series. I guess I had it in my head they were "predator-like" beings, more like an actual monster/alien. The wights or "ghosts" or whatever they called the thing that Jon Snow battled at the wall and killed with fire, they are obviously reanimated humans.


There have been numerous occasions where it was alluded too that the white walkers were something other than the reanimated humans like the bald guy that attacked Jon Snow. Sam mentioned that they sleep under the ice for thousands of years, you could see the difference in the opening scene where first there were dead wildlings but then they came back as zombies and also when Craster put the baby boy out and it was snatched by a white walker. And the wildlings with Jon keep mentioning burning bodies like half hand so that they don't come back, they never mention them coming back AS actual white walkers nor did anyone at the wall refer to the thing Jon killed as a white walker they said wight I believe if anything. The thing that decapitated the guy in the opening scene was definitely not one of the reanimated wildlings...


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The latter.
> 
> It's roads all the way, and probably fairly good roads...note that the convoy headed for the wall with Arya had carts, including the prison cart.


I was thinking that they had to go more back ways to avoid being caught, but then I guess since no one knows they are alive, they aren't likely being hunted anymore.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

What about the men of Bravos? Was Jach the same guy as Arya's "dance instructor?" Why did he have to "die" anyway? I was thinking it was funny because Arya named him. There was little reason for him to be following or choosing to change in front of her


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

netringer said:


> What about the men of Bravos? Was Jach the same guy as Arya's "dance instructor?" Why did he have to "die" anyway? I was thinking it was funny because Arya named him. There was little reason for him to be following or choosing to change in front of her


Jaqen was in an order of assassins. I think the dance instructor was just a good swordman from that country.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

netringer said:


> What about the men of Bravos? Was Jach the same guy as Arya's "dance instructor?" Why did he have to "die" anyway? I was thinking it was funny because Arya named him. There was little reason for him to be following or choosing to change in front of her


There's no evidence to prove or refute this theory.


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Ok, I am new to GoT. I have not read the books, and I just watched both seasons over the last two weeks. And this is my first GoT thread.

Now that I finished season 2 last night, I'd like to read the books. Am I correct in thinking that book 1 was roughly season 1 and book 2 was roughly season 2?

Count me in as someone who was sometimes confused by who various people are. I still don't know if I can post about people without looking up their names.

I really like the following characters:

Tyrion Lannister - every minute he is on screen is golden!
Arya Stark - one of my favorite characters
Lord Varys 
Eddard Stark
Khal Drogo
Jaqen H'ghar


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

markz said:


> Now that I finished season 2 last night, I'd like to read the books. Am I correct in thinking that book 1 was roughly season 1 and book 2 was roughly season 2?


Correct.

Apparently, the correlation will break down increasingly in the future, but for the first two that's more or less it. With a lot of abridgement, of course, but very cleverly done.


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Correct.
> 
> Apparently, the correlation will break down increasingly in the future, but for the first two that's more or less it. With a lot of abridgement, of course, but very cleverly done.


It would seem to me that it would be a difficult read with all the strange people and location names. I am an avid reader, but just trying to read the IMDB entry for the show is something! Maybe having already heard the names and locations pronounce on TV will help!


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Yeah, I started the books after season 1 and knew a lot of the names, but then they started introducing new people. I had a friend who was listening to the books at the same time, so I would ask him how a name was pronounced, and sometimes he would ask me how it was spelled if he couldn't make out what the reader was saying. If you're just reading it really doesn't matter how you pronounce a name in your head, but I didn't want to be even more confused when the show came back and I had the names wrong.  It helps if you have someone to talk about it with as you read. Or we could have a thread for that.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I looked forward to hearing the pronunciation of "Valar Morghulis" more than names or places.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

markz said:


> Count me in as someone who was sometimes confused by who various people are. I still don't know if I can post about people without looking up their names.


Entertainment Weekly has some good episode recaps.
http://tvrecaps.ew.com/tv-show/game-of-thrones/

Tower of the Hand has a scope setting.. You'll still need to be careful to avoid theories and spoilers.
http://towerofthehand.com/

Then there's of course the HBO fan site.
http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/index.html


----------



## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

Anther resource, which is pretty good about avoiding spoilers, assuming you are caught up with the TV series: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Game_of_Thrones_Wiki


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

robojerk said:


> Entertainment Weekly has some good episode recaps.
> http://tvrecaps.ew.com/tv-show/game-of-thrones/
> 
> Tower of the Hand has a scope setting.. You'll still need to be careful to avoid theories and spoilers.
> ...


THIS! Whatever you do, never google things. You'll be taken to sites where things are spoiled before you even realize what you've read! Also beware of comments in any review of episodes.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Tower of the Hand is probably the best site in terms of fan nerdom.

They have chapter reviews, episode reviews, book review, etc, etc, etc......

I wish when I was reading the books I knew about their chapter reviews.. I glanced at them and realized there was some _very subtle_ stuff I missed that may, or may not have any weight on the final outcome of the overall plot, but deeply affect characters and their paths and are full of theories.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

robojerk said:


> Entertainment Weekly has some good episode recaps.
> http://tvrecaps.ew.com/tv-show/game-of-thrones/


I have compiled all the Season 2 EW recaps into a word file; which I have converted to MOBI format (so you can open it into any e-book).

I have Clibre, so I can also convert them into PDF or some other format if you wish.

I also did the same thing for another recap from Grantland.com

if anyone is interested in a copy, PM me your e-mail address and I'm happy to e-mail you both files. I was going to do the same thing for Alan Sepinwell, but his recaps are too short so I didn't feel the need.


----------



## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

markz said:


> Ok, I am new to GoT. I have not read the books, and I just watched both seasons over the last two weeks. And this is my first GoT thread.
> 
> Now that I finished season 2 last night, I'd like to read the books. Am I correct in thinking that book 1 was roughly season 1 and book 2 was roughly season 2?
> 
> Count me in as someone who was sometimes confused by who various people are. I still don't know if I can post about people without looking up their names.


Some parts of Book Three have already been introduced in the series. (Robbs wedding, Jon Snow joining the wildings, etc.) if you are wanting to not spoil the series, you are safe reading the first 2 books.

I wanted to thank everyone for the discussion of "The Rains of Castamere" last week.

Book Three Spoiler -


Spoiler



After last weeks discussion, I got to the Red Wedding in the book, and knowing the history behind the song definitely added to the tension of the scene.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I have compiled all the Season 2 EW recaps into a word file; which I have converted to MOBI format (so you can open it into any e-book).
> 
> I have Clibre, so I can also convert them into PDF or some other format if you wish.
> 
> ...


Forgot to mention that the EW recap also has a long interview with the show runners specifically about "Blackwater", the 9th episode of season 2. I placed just before that episode's recap.

I've tried to send the files as soon as I got your PMs. I do apologize if you waited too long over the weekend!


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rosincrans said:


> Some parts of Book Three have already been introduced in the series. (Robbs wedding, *Jon Snow joining the wildings*, etc.) if you are wanting to not spoil the series, you are safe reading the first 2 books.
> 
> I wanted to thank everyone for the discussion of "The Rains of Castamere" last week.
> 
> ...




Was that clearly introduced in the series? I don't think so!!


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> Was that clearly introduced in the series? I don't think so!!


I thought he was their captive but lots of things happen on this show that I either miss or misinterpret.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

goblue97 said:


> I thought he was their captive but lots of things happen on this show that I either miss or misinterpret.





Spoiler



That's what I thought. It didn't seem like he was *joining* them. That would be a major spoiler for me.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

goblue97 said:


> I thought he was their captive but lots of things happen on this show that I either miss or misinterpret.


After he fought with and killed Half-Hand, they didn't tie him back up. At that point, he can't go back to the Black.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I thought it was made clear enough that's what he's doing. That was the entire point of Qhorin fighting with him and losing... so as to gain their trust for Jon to become an internal spy. "One on this inside is worth a hundred at the wall" or something like that, he said.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I thought it was made clear enough that's what he's doing. That was the entire point of Qhorin fighting with him and losing... so as to gain their trust for Jon to become an internal spy. "One on this inside is worth a hundred at the wall" or something like that, he said.


I totally missed that, and I guess I was not alone.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> I totally missed that, and I guess I was not alone.


Nope. It's still not clear to me whether he is now on the side of the wildlings or if he is a spy.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

goblue97 said:


> Nope. It's still not clear to me whether he is now on the side of the wildlings or if he is a spy.


Or both.

That is, he has joined the wildlings in order to be an inside agent.


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

goblue97 said:


> Nope. It's still not clear to me whether he is now on the side of the wildlings or if he is a spy.


I think we're supposed to assume that he's a spy at this point, but that can certainly change.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I don't think even Snow is sure if he's a spy! 

My guess is that he has (or at least will have) conflicted feelings. And I'm afraid, him being who he is, that he'll do something stupid. 

I hate having to wait a year to see it.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

allan said:


> I don't think even Snow is sure if he's a spy!
> 
> My guess is that he has (or at least will have) conflicted feelings. And I'm afraid, him being who he is, that he'll do something stupid.


No kidding! 

We're talking about Jon Snow. Flakiest dude in the North. Of course he'll do something stupid!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tivoboyjr said:


> No kidding!
> 
> We're talking about Jon Snow. Flakiest dude in the North. Of course he'll do something stupid!


well, he was stupid enough to need to be goaded and angered into killing halfhand. Heaven forbid he does the smart thing on his own.

I don't know why they need to tie his hands, regardless of whether or not they trust him. Where is going to run to?


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

allan said:


> I don't think even Snow is sure if he's a spy!
> 
> My guess is that he has (or at least will have) conflicted feelings. And I'm afraid, him being who he is, that he'll do something stupid.


I'm quite sure Jon knows that he's a spy... right now.

The question is, will he stay that way?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

madscientist said:


> I'm quite sure Jon knows that he's a spy... right now.
> The question is, will he stay that way?


I say no. He'll fall in lurve with Ygritte and think he belongs with them. He's a lost soul just looking for anyone to throw him a bone. I feel bad for him but it doesn't make him the smartest character. He definitely thinks with his heart and not his head, IMO.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I feel bad for him but it doesn't make him the smartest character. He definitely thinks with his heart and not his head, IMO.


He definitely seems that way to me in the series. I don't remember him like that as much in the books. That makes me wonder how he will differ long term (if at all). Part of that could be not being in his head in the series. One advantage the books have is since you are in their heads you get a chance to see why they are doing something that from another view point might look short sighted or just stupid.


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

jakerock said:


> He definitely seems that way to me in the series. I don't remember him like that as much in the books. That makes me wonder how he will differ long term (if at all). Part of that could be not being in his head in the series. One advantage the books have is since you are in their heads you get a chance to see why they are doing something that from another view point might look short sighted or just stupid.


I get the feeling, mostly from reading comments here, that both Jon and Caitlyn appear more bumbling-as in always making the wrong decision- in the show than in the books. It's funny to me that they aren't related, because they have the same poor judgment.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

tivoboyjr said:


> I get the feeling, mostly from reading comments here, that both Jon and Caitlyn appear more bumbling-as in always making the wrong decision- in the show than in the books. It's funny to me that they aren't related, because they have the same poor judgment.


I don't remember Caitlyn doing anything substantially different in the series. But I do agree that given the changes in the series some of her decisions don't look as good. In the books she isn't with Robb when a lot of stuff is happening and thus has different motivations for what she does.

But honestly my memory sucks and I don't remember a lot of stuff and could be wrong.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

jakerock said:


> I don't remember Caitlyn doing anything substantially different in the series. But I do agree that given the changes in the series some of her decisions don't look as good. In the books she isn't with Robb when a lot of stuff is happening and thus has different motivations for what she does.
> 
> But honestly my memory sucks and I don't remember a lot of stuff and could be wrong.


I have the same problem with my memory, so I can't really say about Cat. 

But I did get much less of a "stupid" vibe from Jon in the books compared to the show.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think two problems in the books-to-TV transition that are relevant here are A) things get compressed, which can give short shrift to the motivations of the more flawed characters, and B) we don't get the inner voice of the characters, so we get a lot less of what they're thinking about what they're doing.

In particular, what happens with Jon and the wildlings takes place over a much longer span in the books, mostly told from his own viewpoint, so we get what he's thinking plus the process is more gradual. I think when Jon (and Caitlyn) are forced by the compressed narrative of the show to do things more quickly, it doesn't look good for them. That's why I'm a HUGE proponent of reading the books first; watching things unfold at their natural pace with everything in place is much more pleasurable than having it race past you on the screen.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Hmm... I wonder what Jon's inner dialogue was when he was spooning with yigrit (whatever her name is) that night


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Hmm... I wonder what Jon's inner dialogue was when he was spooning with yigrit (whatever her name is) that night


Probably like a medieval Penthouse letter.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Hmm... I wonder what Jon's inner dialogue was when he was spooning with yigrit (whatever her name is) that night


"Arrrrgh. You could dock a boat to it!"


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

jakerock said:


> He definitely seems that way to me in the series. I don't remember him like that as much in the books. That makes me wonder how he will differ long term (if at all). Part of that could be not being in his head in the series. One advantage the books have is since you are in their heads you get a chance to see why they are doing something that from another view point might look short sighted or just stupid.


The treatment of Jon in the show is really disappointing to me. In the books, up to this point, he is naive and "boyish" but NEVER stupid. His character is just so much more developed and nuanced in the books, I'm sad to see that lost (so far) in the show.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think two problems in the books-to-TV transition that are relevant here are A) things get compressed, which can give short shrift to the motivations of the more flawed characters, and B) we don't get the inner voice of the characters, so we get a lot less of what they're thinking about what they're doing.


There's also the fact that in a book you can hide a characters face, letting you reveal who the person is later in a grand surprise! (which GRRM does ALL the time) In a TV show, you can't do that. If I see someone, I know who they are. I've noticed a bunch of plot lines that have been adjusted because of this.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Going to spoiler this for the sensitive folks. But seriously, it's about as tame as could be.



Spoiler



For those confused by the Winterfell burning scene - they will have to address this in more detail later, probably from another point of view. So, for now, treat it as a cliff hanger and don't stress yourself out trying to piece it together


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

mostman said:


> The treatment of Jon in the show is really disappointing to me. In the books, up to this point, he is naive and "boyish" but NEVER stupid. His character is just so much more developed and nuanced in the books, I'm sad to see that lost (so far) in the show.


In the books (and I have only read book 1), isn't he supposed to be younger? A teenager? I'm not sure of his age in the show, but even if he's supposed to still be a teenager he LOOKS older, maybe early 20s. So STUPID you can forgive in a child as being naive. In an adult, you are less apt to be as forgiving.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> In the books (and I have only read book 1), isn't he supposed to be younger? A teenager? I'm not sure of his age in the show, but even if he's supposed to still be a teenager he LOOKS older, maybe early 20s. So STUPID you can forgive in a child as being naive. In an adult, you are less apt to be as forgiving.


Yes, all the Stark kids, including Jon, are younger in the books than the actors in the show. And, admittedly, even someone in early 20's is very likely to be stupid. Speaking as someone who did enough boneheaded stuff in his teens & low 20's, especially around the fairer sex.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

mostman said:


> The treatment of Jon in the show is really disappointing to me. In the books, up to this point, he is naive and "boyish" but NEVER stupid. His character is just so much more developed and nuanced in the books, I'm sad to see that lost (so far) in the show.


Best book reference that was not a spoiler I have seen so far. I really like Jon in the books but the way he is portrayed in the show does in fact make him look the fool. Of all the storylines that have been followed up to this point that have had to have been changed for adaptation, Jon's adaptation is the worse by far in my opinion.


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

mostman said:


> The treatment of Jon in the show is really disappointing to me. In the books, up to this point, he is naive and "boyish" but NEVER stupid. His character is just so much more developed and nuanced in the books, I'm sad to see that lost (so far) in the show.


I haven't been overly bothered by this, but what did rub me the wrong way was the rewrite of the storyline with Ygritte for the show. THAT made him look stupid and naive. Also how they treated his fight with Quoron.

Additionally on that note, how they make Cat Stark look with the releasing of Jamie is a bit rough. At least in the novels you get her insight and her inner dialogue as to why she's doing what she's doing. Yes, it looked stupid to Rob but she had her reasons.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Here's a little something to hold us over until next year.

Game Of Thrones theme sung by a cat.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> Here's a little something to hold us over until next year.
> 
> Game Of Thrones theme sung by a cat.


I want the RAM that Flash took up to show that back.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

LOL, I thought it was clever, although I admit I skipped a bit here and there. Simple things amuse simple minds, eh?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Everyone ready for Season 3? 

I finished re-watching Season 2 last night and am starting to re-read Book 3.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Everyone ready for Season 3?
> 
> I finished re-watching Season 2 last night and am starting to re-read Book 3.


Yes, SO READY!


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

cherry ghost said:


> Everyone ready for Season 3?
> 
> I finished re-watching Season 2 last night and am starting to re-read Book 3.


I finished rewatching the first two seasons last week and am rereading the third book now as well. Really looking forward to the season after seeing the trailer.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Since the second season ended I have got 3 of my work associates to catch up on the series, all 20 episodes. They loved it.

This season will be a whole lot more fun for me now, especially since I know what is going to happen and they don't (I'm a book reader, they have only seen the series).


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> This season will be a whole lot more fun for me now, especially since I know what is going to happen and they don't (I'm a book reader, they have only seen the series).


Yeah, one of my daughters has read the books, but my other two kids and my husband have not. I'm really looking forward to this season!


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I'm ready. I have to download the last episode and watch it. Is this the thread for the last episode?


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

The last episode of the second season, yes. And the most recent. So beware spoilers.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Very much. I read all the books last year, while the rest of the family hasn't. It's tough not letting spoilers out but I have been pretty good, except one my son got out of me. It should come fairly early in S03 so not that big a deal, and it was mostly somewhat predictable anyway.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Very ready!


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I'm ready for Season 3! I started reading Book 3, but got sidetracked, and I'm still early in the book.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Have you seen the 15 minute summary of last season that aired on HBO?


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

allan said:


> I'm ready for Season 3! I started reading Book 3, but got sidetracked, and I'm still early in the book.


While reading book three keep in mind that the book will basically be split into seasons 3 and 4, so if you complete the book and things seem like they are not moving fast enough in season three that would be why.



jehma said:


> Have you seen the 15 minute summary of last season that aired on HBO?


Not yet but will watch it when someone posts the Youtube link.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

jehma said:


> Have you seen the 15 minute summary of last season that aired on HBO?


Yeah! My UVerse SP picked it up. That was welcome because I was thinking I needed to go back and watch the last few episodes of the last season to remember what's what and who's who.

They did a good job with the briefing.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jehma said:


> Have you seen the 15 minute summary of last season that aired on HBO?


ooh...I need to record that...

I'm sooooo ready...I've been playing the theme song 4-5 times every day!


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> While reading book three keep in mind that the book will basically be split into seasons 3 and 4, so if you complete the book and things seem like they are not moving fast enough in season three that would be why.
> 
> Not yet but will watch it when someone posts the Youtube link.


In preperation for S3, I have started reading book 3. Actually, I started awhile ago, but have restarted again. About 2/3 of the way through now. If they do break Book 3 in to S3 & S4, they may need to move some the last part of the book forward. It seems that the first part was rather slow moving, but the second half picks up speed dramatcially.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> While reading book three keep in mind that the book will basically be split into seasons 3 and 4, so if you complete the book and things seem like they are not moving fast enough in season three that would be why.


And also that elements of Book 4 will be in Season 3.

As time goes by, they will adhere less and less to the exact structure of the books...which is good, because as time goes by the structure of the books becomes more of a mess.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Not yet but will watch it when someone posts the Youtube link.


Well, look what just showed up in my Twitter feed:

Catch up with Game of Thrones in awesome 14-minute S2 recap


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

jehma said:


> Well, look what just showed up in my Twitter feed:
> 
> Catch up with Game of Thrones in awesome 14-minute S2 recap


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jehma said:


> Well, look what just showed up in my Twitter feed:
> 
> Catch up with Game of Thrones in awesome 14-minute S2 recap


Cool, I set this up to record Wed morning on HBO2 and also set up the last episode of S2 to rewatch (the episode for this thread).


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Watched the 15 minute recap. It was good, but not as much fun as re-watching Season Two will be. Which I will do before S3 starts.

I read book three last year, I'm 88% thru book four now (Feast of Crows). I had heard, as Rob mentioned, that from this point forward they will focus more on telling a story, and less on chronological book order. So I figure I better have 3 & 4 read before this season airs.

The books just keep getting denser, with so many plots and stories and peoples and deaths and journeys and whatnot, that I have no idea how they can make a single season at a time TV show from them. But I can't wait to see their efforts!:up:

They could make a new episode every week of every year and still not run out of source material.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Is there any chance that Martin will have book 6 ready any time soon? It wouldn't have to be as big as book 5--half that size would be good to tide us over.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Is there any chance that Martin will have book 6 ready any time soon? It wouldn't have to be as big as book 5--half that size would be good to tide us over.


I looked around the web for news on book 6 right after I finished book 5. IIRC, a) it's going to be at least 2014 more likely 2015, and b) >1,200 pages.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

My guess is 2018 for book 6 @ 2000 pages.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Last I'd heard was some time after he'd finished Book 5, and everything that he'd reported writing in Book 6 sounded like outtakes from Book 5. So I'm guessing we're in for another very, very long wait, unless he suddenly gets inspired like he hasn't been in a decade.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

He should watch the HBO show. It's pretty good.


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