# Digital cable guide data from eBay CableCard



## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

I could not decide which thread to put this issue in, so please pardon my starting this one. It's a fairly specific topic however, and if I'm right may prove to be quite useful to others. I tried searching for answered regarding this particular topic but kept finding conflicting results.

*Quick Summary*
I'm now getting guide data for the unencrypted clear QAM digital cable channels (abchd, cbshd, nbchd, etc) withOUT any cablecards.

*"Quick" Background*
I had a cable modem go bad. A knology tech came out (modem is rented) to test and replace the modem (power supply failed). After some discussion, the next day he came back and installed a cablecard (Mcard) while I was at work. Came home to play with it and woohoo! ... uh-oh... only one tuner working. Online research = S3 needs two cards.  I leave him a message to come back when he can for a second card, and in the meantime remove the Mcard. Re-ran guided setup for cable+antenna, back to normal, both tuners working with OTA antenna. (e.g. I have analog cable SD and OTA HD for the broadcast channels abchd, cbshd, etc. I can manually tune to ch901-905 for the CATV-packaged versions of the abchd, cbshd, etc channels but have no guide data.)

Here's where it gets interesting. In re-running guided setup, one Tivo S3 screen (sorry, don't have a screenshot right now [at work]) talks about CableCARDs and gives me three choices: "no cable card," "yes cable card," and "going to use cablecards but don't have them yet." I thought to myself, hmm... I wonder where the guide data / channel maps REALLY come from... Hopped over to TitanTV.com and looked up the Knology analog and digital cable listings.. Identical! Except the digital listing goes on forever where the analog listing stops at channel 99 or so. Hmmm.....

So I go back to the Tivo and selected "going to use cablecards but don't have them yet." Tivo did it's thing connecting and downloading data, yadda yadda. When it finished I went to LiveTV, I could still tune all my analog channels just fine, and what's this?? All the digital channel guide data is in place! Of course I can't tune any of those channels... but wait, what about channels 901-905 (abchd, cbshd, nbchd, etc)? Guide data? YES! Tunable? YES! Went into Tivo->"Find Programs" and tried one at random ("WIPEOUT") ... Three listings showed up: analog cable SD (ch12), OTA antenna HD (ch31-1), *and* digital cable HD (ch901). Went into ch901 and setup for a season pass, checked upcoming episodes, and the episode on ch901 was setup to record! Not wanting to wait, I selected a few upcoming programs that day on several of the 901-905 channels to record. That night, all had recorded just fine, with program information fully intact!

*Now, the questions..*
I *did* have a cablecard installed. But then I took it out, reran guided setup back to analog cable, then reran guided setup AGAIN and went back to "going to use cablecards but don't have them yet." So one of two things is going on then, I think--

1) "residual" guide data leftover from when a cablecard WAS installed; or

2) guide data for digital cable is in fact available over Tivo/TMS, Tivo just chose to have the digital lineup behind the cablecard screens and leave the "cable/antenna/cable+antenna" analog only for a "less complicated user experience." That would mean that the CableCard does provide the 'decoding' for subscription digital channels, but not the actual "channel map" (as suggested everywhere else on these and other forums).

Has anyone else tried the above without ever having a cablecard?

thanks,
..dane


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

First off, you are thinking wrong about the cablecard possibly not providing the channel map. It does. Now there are two things that could be happening (one of which you have already mentioned).

1. The mapping as it is right now is temporarily in the system from when you had the cablecard inserted.
2. FACT: The cable companies can choose a virtual channel number to have their channels show up on. Typically they use one of two virtual channel numbers. Either their analog channel number with a "-1" appended or the OTA number (which also has a subchannel). POSSIBLE EXPLAINATION/THEORY: Knology chose for their virtual channel number to exactly match their digital channel number (901 in your case) with no subchannel (no "-1"). Assuming that is possible and the case, I theorize that the Tivo would properly associate guide data under that circumstance as the channels exactly match. 

Again, I stress that what I wrote for 2. is only a theory. Although, I would love to validate it. One way to try to test it is to do a channel scan with a HDTV and then try tuning to channel 901 and see if it comes in that way (with no subchannel) on the TV.

Josh


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Hey Josh,

Okay, there is certainly some stuff in your reply that I don't fully understand.. channel mapping vs virtual channel numbers vs TitanTV's channel guide lineup (which I assume also comes from Tribune)...

But I can confirm that a year ago when I first got my HDTV (months before getting the TivoS3), I did a channel scan and yes, channels 901-905 were available as the unencrypted hd broadcast channels. Once I did get the S3, of course I could still manually tune to channel 901 and it would work, but no guide data. And if I did a Tivo channel scan, it would also find 901 (and others) but of course still no guide data.

In Knology/Huntsville-AL's lineup, channel 12 is analog ABC-SD. Using my OTA antenna for the past couple of months, OTA channel 31-1 is ABC-HD (OTA). And as I just mentioned from testing a year ago (Feb 2010), ABC-HD (CATV) is channel 901.

What I don't get is the distinction you are placing between the HDTV's tuning of channel 901 and the Tivo's tuning of ch901-- are you suggesting that what the HDTV sees at ch901, the Tivo guide data might have seen as something different? And that we just "lucked out" that Knology-HsvAL just happened to decide to map them together?

Admittedly I don't know a ton about virtual channel mapping, etc.

thanks,
..dane


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Yeah, I gotta go with the leftover mapping theory. Possibly it will even remain valid until the cable company decides to move some channels around.

Don't confuse the mapping with the guide data, BTW; those are two different things. The mapping (between real and virtual channels) is provided by the CableCards, while the guide data comes from TiVo.

Edit: Ah, never mind, apparently scenario 2 is correct after all. Weird.


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## Grey Griffin (May 24, 2007)

I can tune local HDs off cable in my area like this. My understanding is that the clear QAM channel has data attached to it that tells it what virtual channel to map to. So, while the QAM may be 80-1 it knows to show up as channel 705. When you select "getting cable cards later, use digital line up" then the Tivo has the guide data for those channels. In my area the TV Starter package includes several digital channels and after a channel scan and guided set up to use the digital line up they all show up as they would with a cable card. 

From what I've seen here, most companies do not include this data on their clear QAM channels so it only works for a small number of people.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

wmcbrine said:


> Yeah, I gotta go with the leftover mapping theory. Possibly it will even remain valid until the cable company decides to move some channels around.
> 
> Don't confuse the mapping with the guide data, BTW; those are two different things. The mapping (between real and virtual channels) is provided by the CableCards, while the guide data comes from TiVo.
> 
> Edit: Ah, never mind, apparently scenario 2 is correct after all. Weird.


Is there a "layman's guide to channel mapping and guide data" somewhere? The guide data is for what, virtual channels? And the Tivo has to tune what, Real channels? so the channel mapping is between the two?

I FULLY understand the difference between real and virtual channels _as it relates to OTA reception_. Here in Huntsville, AL, virtual channel 31-1 is real channel 32. I understand that guide data comes in a "virtual channel" but that the tuner is actually tuning to a frequency determined by the "real channel." Does that same process apply or is it something different for digital cable?



Grey Griffin said:


> I can tune local HDs off cable in my area like this. My understanding is that the clear QAM channel has data attached to it that tells it what virtual channel to map to. So, while the QAM may be 80-1 it knows to show up as channel 705. When you select "getting cable cards later, use digital line up" then the Tivo has the guide data for those channels. In my area the TV Starter package includes several digital channels and after a channel scan and guided set up to use the digital line up they all show up as they would with a cable card.
> 
> *From what I've seen here, most companies do not include this data on their clear QAM channels so it only works for a small number of people.*


So your understanding is that the QAM channel *can* contain virtual mapping information, but not all providers *do* give virtual mapping on their clear QAM channels, right? Might there be a reference you can cite that I could read up on about that in more detail?

..dane


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## Grey Griffin (May 24, 2007)

I just read the Wikipedia entries on QAM channels and PSIP data. But I have a Tivo that has never had cable cards in it and it gets all the local HDs on the cable channels my provider indicates. I originally had done a channel scan and found the QAM style channels. A few months later I wasn't getting a picture and so I scanned again and noticed the channel numbers matched the channel guide. I re-ran guided setup and told it to use the digital lineup and I had guide data to match. I also have noticed that if I look through the QAM channels from the channel scan it will show up briefly with an odd number (like 79-1) then change to a regular number (like 131). My best guess is that it takes the tuner a second to read the data and redirect to the virtual number.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Hey Grey, thanks for that reply. So just so I can understand things a little better, you did a channel scan and it worked for a while but then you lost signal. Running guided setup to use the digital lineup however, and since then have you ever had a loss of signal to need rescanning again? I imagine "no" but wanted to make sure..

..dane


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

audiodane said:


> Okay, there is certainly some stuff in your reply that I don't fully understand.. channel mapping vs virtual channel numbers vs TitanTV's channel guide lineup (which I assume also comes from Tribune)...
> ...
> Admittedly I don't know a ton about virtual channel mapping, etc.


http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/298

Why do you assume that TitanTV has any relationship w/Tribune? http://info.titantv.com/ says "In February 2010, TitanTV was acquired by Broadcast Interactive Media..."

If one goes to http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/lineup_web/US:98052#lineup_4362178 and select Verizon FiOS, you can see the mappings are a mess and the list is woefully incomplete. I'd wager than 60+% of the channels are missing.


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## Grey Griffin (May 24, 2007)

> Hey Grey, thanks for that reply. So just so I can understand things a little better, you did a channel scan and it worked for a while but then you lost signal. Running guided setup to use the digital lineup however, and since then have you ever had a loss of signal to need rescanning again? I imagine "no" but wanted to make sure..


In December 2008 I got my 2nd S3 OLED and did a channel scan. At that time the local HD channels showed up as QAM frequencies like 80-1 and 101-3. I used manual recordings to record the shows on this Tivo as I was basically using just it as a 3rd and 4th tuner. In April '09 I noticed that the local HDs were not tuning on the channels they had been. I had read that companies often move channels to different QAM frequencies so I ran another channel scan and found the locals again. On my cable system the local HDs are channels 704-711. I noticed after the scan that the channels matched the digital cable lineup. Since I had told Tivo I didn't get digital I didn't have any guide info for those channels. That's when I redid guided setup and told it to use the digital lineup and I would get cable cards later. I have had to rerun the channel scan when they added a new channel like CW or ION but I have received the local networks on the correct channels with guide data ever since.

I have also noted that this only works on the channels in my providers "limited basic" package. That package includes the local HDs and about a dozen other digital channels. I pick up all those on the correct channel numbers but I'm not able to get any other channels from the digital or HD tiers.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

cwerdna said:


> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/298
> 
> Why do you assume that TitanTV has any relationship w/Tribune? http://info.titantv.com/ says "In February 2010, TitanTV was acquired by Broadcast Interactive Media..."
> 
> If one goes to http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/lineup_web/US:98052#lineup_4362178 and select Verizon FiOS, you can see the mappings are a mess and the list is woefully incomplete. I'd wager than 60+% of the channels are missing.


Thanks cwerdna for the links. To answer your question, I had assumed that Tribune provides all the program listings for north america. My bad. Looking at wikipedia I see there are a small handful of information aggregation companies that provide such data. thanks for the tip. And thanks also for the Fios example. You're right, it does look quite the mess. So it looks like a few of us are just lucky (for now, at least)?



Grey Griffin said:


> In December 2008 I got my 2nd S3 OLED and did a channel scan. At that time the local HD channels showed up as QAM frequencies like 80-1 and 101-3. I used manual recordings to record the shows on this Tivo as I was basically using just it as a 3rd and 4th tuner. In April '09 I noticed that the local HDs were not tuning on the channels they had been. I had read that companies often move channels to different QAM frequencies so I ran another channel scan and found the locals again. On my cable system the local HDs are channels 704-711. I noticed after the scan that the channels matched the digital cable lineup. Since I had told Tivo I didn't get digital I didn't have any guide info for those channels. That's when I redid guided setup and told it to use the digital lineup and I would get cable cards later. I have had to rerun the channel scan when they added a new channel like CW or ION but I have received the local networks on the correct channels with guide data ever since.
> 
> I have also noted that this only works on the channels in my providers "limited basic" package. That package includes the local HDs and about a dozen other digital channels. I pick up all those on the correct channel numbers but I'm not able to get any other channels from the digital or HD tiers.


Thanks Grey-- that agrees with what I've seen on my own tivo. Seems Knology (and your provider) has done us a terrific service to map their clearQAM channels the way they have. :up:

thanks!
..dane


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

audiodane said:


> Thanks cwerdna for the links. To answer your question, I had assumed that Tribune provides all the program listings for north america. My bad. Looking at wikipedia I see there are a small handful of information aggregation companies that provide such data. thanks for the tip. And thanks also for the Fios example. You're right, it does look quite the mess. So it looks like a few of us are just lucky (for now, at least)?


TV Guide/Gemstar (producers of the TV Guide print magazine) was always a competitor to Tribune Media Services. Now that Rovi owns TV Guide/Gemstar, I don't know the relationship between "TV Guide Online Holdings LLC " listed at http://www.tvguide.com/services/copyright.aspx, the print version and Rovi.

As for FiOS, here's the national portion of my lineup: http://www22.verizon.com/NROneRetai...AB69-9B361594E7F7/0/PremierOnline_Nov2010.pdf. This doesn't include my locals which spans some channels <100 and a few in the 500 range. Despite what might seem like random numbering due to the list being alphabetical, they actually are logically grouped.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Resurrecting an old thread of mine to provide an update; it seems no matter what I try I cannot get my TivoHD to accomplish the same goal as my Tivo S3OLED did back earlier in this thread (two years ago).. My dad did the same trick I did two years ago with his TivoHD, and it worked the same as my S3OLED.. Now, however, the TivoHD cannot seem to accomplish the same goal.

After re-reading this thread, however, I wonder if I need to re-run guided setup as analog-only, THEN channel scan, THEN go back and re-run guided setup with digital cable.. That seems silly, but is just about the one thing I have not yet tried.

I've considered picking up another S3OLED and copying the HDD from one to the other and see if the channel mapping copies over that way too. Somewhere someone told me that would not work.. I don't have a spare S3OLED to try it though.

If I could get the free HD broadcast channels on this TivoHD, I'd be golden..

cheers,
..dane


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

There was a suggestion recently in another thread that a CableCard purchased from eBay worked for mapping, even though it couldn't be authorized or paired, and so couldn't decrypt anything. I can't vouch for this, but it's an intriguing possibility.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Wow, very interesting.. I will have to look for that thread. Thanks for the tip..

..dane


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## nlayton (Sep 16, 2003)

I recently cancelled my cable and had to return the cable cards in my S3. As soon as I popped them out I lost all the channels.

Buy chance I had purchased a couple of cable cards for $7 each on eBay. I was going to swap them out and save the rental fees but never got around to doing it.

So i figured this was a good time to install them. As soon as installed them, I was able to tune the local HD. Guide data still working. But it too soon to tell if its just buffered.

These used cable cards came from 2000 miles away, no way they any previous connection with my channel line up.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

nlayton said:


> I recently cancelled my cable and had to return the cable cards in my S3. As soon as I popped them out I lost all the channels.
> 
> Buy chance I had purchased a couple of cable cards for $7 each on eBay. I was going to swap them out and save the rental fees but never got around to doing it.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your post, nlayton. If you don't mind updating us in two months if the channel mapping still seems to work, that would be fantastic.

cheers,
..dane


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Well I went ahead and bought a Motorola card today for under $7 shipped.. We'll see how that pans out first.. Not a whole lot to loose for less than 10 bucks.. If it gives me the free broadcast channel-mapping, then I am an extremely happy camper!


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## Tivoitis (Sep 12, 2005)

audiodane said:


> Well I went ahead and bought a Motorola card today for under $7 shipped.. We'll see how that pans out first.. Not a whole lot to loose for less than 10 bucks.. If it gives me the free broadcast channel-mapping, then I am an extremely happy camper!


That's probably the same vendor I used ... good luck!


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Thanks. I'm trying to keep realistic expectations. I have no reason to believe that it will do any good at all. But it's too cheap and easy to pass up "just trying it."


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## JimG19 (Jun 30, 2005)

So how did this turn out. Did the ebay cable cards allow your clear channels to be properly mapped?


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Hi Jim.. thanks for the poke..

I received a motorola mcard about mid-feb.. I had been getting my hopes up.. I could hardly wait to try it out.. That night I went to the CC setup screen and installed the card.. Poked around the CC menu for a while, not really knowing what I was looking for, just looking around.. Tried to go to LiveTV, saw the message, "getting channel information..." so I waited.. and waited.. after a while I thought maybe I did something wrong, so I removed the card. Tivo wanted me to then go through guided setup again since I had removed the card. Okay, I thought. when I got to the CC portion of guided setup, I reinstalled the card.. Finished guided setup, went to live tv, same message, .. getting channel information.. so I just left it and went to do some other chores while I waited..

Later that night, I came back and there was some sort of message indicating that it failed, but that I could hit the Tivo button to return to Tivo Central. So I did.. NPL, MRV, etc all worked fine.. Went back to Live TV.. "getting channel information.." ugg.. I became disheartened.. I took the card out. Tivo wanted me to go through guided setup again.. ugg.. okay, one more time.. Then went to bed.. (actually I think I dozed in and out during some of the "please wait" segments of the guided setup, ha ha) .. I was disappointed. 

Next day at work I figured I would try ONE more brand.. Moto didn't work, what about scientific atlanta? $5 and a week later and I had one in my hand.. But it was the night before a really important business trip that I had to prepare for, so I had to leave it for later..

After returning home from the trip and decompressing, I was ready to try the SA Mcard.. I was just on regular live TV, and plugged it in.. After not too long, a white screen popped up with a black text region that read:


```
CableCARD FIRMWARE UPGRADE

TunedFreq : 609000 KHz
Collected Blocks : [8 / 508]
Status : 2% completed...
```
Hmm, I thought, this is new.. It flipped back and forth between that screen and, I can't remember.. NPL? Tivo Central? Live TV? but only for about a second, then it would go back to the status screen with an updated amount.. 4%, 6%, 8%, ... about 20-30 minutes later it finally hit 100%. I think then it gave some message about rebooting.. I was getting pretty excited.. The moto card didn't do this.. 

Then my hopes were dashed yet again, when the following message popped up:


```
In order to start service for
this device, please contact
customer service at
Ph# 410-427-9600
CableCARD(tm): x-xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx (not shown b/c I don't know its sensitivity)
Host ID: x-xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx (not shown b/c I don't know its sensitivity)
Host Type: One-Way
```
I was disheartened.. 

I decided to go into the setup menu next.. The CC Menu is vastly different.. a lot more information than the moto card offered. Again, I didn't really know what I was looking for.. But then I decided to "Test Channels" from the Tivo CC menu. I can't remember if I saw the "gathering channel information" screen or not. I might have.. But at least after that, it actually went to live TV! I was hesitant and confused.. It said it didn't have service.. but it was tuning live tv. Granted it was just one of the standard analog channels that I'd been getting all along, but either way, it was progress from the moto card. I was happy that at least I wouldn't have to re-run guided setup.. 

I tried 901 (abc).. nothing. 

Figuring, "well, at least it seems no worse, I can just leave the card in for now.. might as well try some other channels," I tried 902 (cbs) .. blank for a second, then some buzzing for about a second, and then WHAM! Picture! 

Confused and excited, I tried the other broadcast channels (nbc, pbs, fox).. Long story short, I think 3/5 of them work, and 2/5 of them are still black with a "Searching for signal on CableTV" or whatever that message is..

*So, as it stands today*, the card has *not* been paired, has *not* been activated, but I *have* gotten some kind of channel map. Interesting, I looked up the phone number that the message above gave me.. turns out to be Comcast in Baltimore, MD. Not only am I *not* in MD, I'm not even on Comast-- I'm on Knology! So, it seems Knology *both* upgraded the firmware of the card (whether it was "out of date" or "wrong provider" [comcast instead of knology], I have no clue), *and* allowed at least SOME sort of channel map update to pass through to the Tivo. It's partial/incomplete, but given that it's not activated *nor* paired, it's a start! 

It's been in there about 24 hours at the time of this post. I'll be checking over the coming weeks to see if the other couple broadcast channels come in or not. I will have to go back and remind myself (and write down) which of the channels I'm receiving, and which I'm not, so that I can track it better..

I've gone ahead and placed an order for a couple more SA cards for my other Tivo.. I don't plan on using them unless something on that Tivo changes. It still tunes all five broadcast channels without any CC whatsoever (2 yrs later).. Weird, but I'm not complaining! But since it's an s3oled, I'm getting two SA cards as backups just in case I ever need them..

If I was *really* curious, I'd take out the SA card from the S3HD and see if it maintains the channel map over the coming months.. but unfortunately I'm not *that* dedicated right now.. sorry.. I have something (partially) working.. That's good enough for me (for now). If it goes months with no change, then I may revisit things..

I will leave the speculation to those more knowledgable than me.. All I know is I got absolutely nowhere with one brand card, and at least a partial success from another card that has not been activated or paired, and came from another provider.. Weird..

cheers,
..dane


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Or you could just pay $2 (or $5 or whatever) and have it actually work right.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Arcady said:


> Or you could just pay $2 (or $5 or whatever) and have it actually work right.


But, I *can't* "just pay $2 (or $5 or whatever)" ... that's the whole reason I'm here in this thread.. I'm on extended basic analog for cost-savings.. I have a digital tuner and because I am getting CATV service I am allowed to get the HD broadcast channels free (abc/cbs/etc). I have tried once before and have talked with them on more than one occasion about it. To get a CC for the $2-ish/mo rate I have to convert to digital cable (but not digital HD), and Knology will charge me both a $10 "outlet fee" and a $2 CC rental fee, both monthly. So three cable cards (one S3OLED needing two CC's and one S3HD needing one CC) would cost me 3 x ($10 + $2), or $36/mo. And that's on *top* of converting to their digital lineup which is another $5-15/mo (digital HD package costs even more).

So, it's this approach, or some $35+/mo approach. $35/mo is a huge rate increase.

This approach at least for two days has gotten me several of the broadcast channels. Therefore, my goal is largely achieved.

While I wish there was an affordable Knology solution, I'm not here to bash on Knology. I'm here to share my experience in hopes to help someone else in a similar situation-- namely someone with basic analog cable who wants to also get the fcc-mandated free broadcast channels without the hassle of an OTA antenna..

cheers,
..dane


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Okay, understood.

Be aware that they can change the channel map at any time without notice and break the stuff you do have currently working.

What about upgrading for a month, install their CableCards, get everything mapped, then go back to basic service? Sometimes they won't ask for the CableCards back in that situation. Or they might drop the service level and keep charging for the cards. It's worth a shot at least.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

That may work.. good idea.. Worth a shot, but still potentially a lot of hassle.. I'm getting pretty tired of hassles (not just with cable providers).. 

The first time around a year or two ago, I had only a S2DT and the S3OLED.. So they brought out two cards and did the upgrade. At the time, billing and the technician assured me that they could simply add the cost of the cards ($2-3/mo each) and not change my plan. So I went down that path. He had to come back out a second time because he didn't realize up front that I needed two cards even if they were Mcards.. Anyhoo, all was great, then a month later I get my bill and it had inflated some $70/mo, because they not only pushed me to the digital package, but the digital HD package (probably because I said 'free broadcast *HD*' in my request). Well that was outrageous, and took me several hours talking with their reps and then returning the cards back to them to get it all undone. And they would only partially refund the monthly charge since I had enjoyed the service during that time..

This time around I spent the hour on the phone with the rep BEFORE the truck roll, and had to repeatedly re-word my questions and ensure they understood in multiple different ways exactly what I was trying to do.. After about an hour, they finally agreed, nope, I would have to convert to at least the digital SD base package, plus the outlet fee (per CARD, not per TV), plus the card itself. So I declined, and picked this thread back up on my own DIY attempts to get the channel map.

Yes, the channel map may change, and apparently HAS changed, since the above scenario. Oddly enough however, my S3OLED has kept up with the changes, even though it has no CC's. I cannot understand nor explain it. My dad's has done the same thing (kept up with channel map changes), and he never even had a CC to begin with! He just said, "use digital lineup, get CC later" and it worked. That was then, on his S3HD. Trying to do that now on my S3HD (same model as his), doesn't work. It's really odd, I admit freely that I don't understand all the dynamics going on.

But since all I'm looking for are the basic broadcast digital HD re-encapsulated channels, I'm willing to spend a few bucks on a "DIY"-ish type solution. Time will certainly tell whether or not it seems to work long-term..

..dane


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Arcady said:


> Be aware that they can change the channel map at any time without notice and break the stuff you do have currently working.


Umm, he has the cable card in there -- so it will deal with the remapping&#8230; Even if it's not authorized.

My Tivo HD has a cable card that's not *paired* (I *think* it's one of the real cable company ones -- I *also* have some cards I got when I bought a used Tivo, and unfortunately have gotten them mixed up.. but I *think* the ones that were in the used Tivo were S cards.. ) Anyway, I still get the OTA channels & some more, just like the other guy. (Yeah, eventually I'll have them mapped, but I swap out the hard drive every once in a while with an older one that's semi-flaky to get stuff off.. so dealing with getting them to repair it is a pain.. so I just record OTA-rebroadcast only stuff on that one Tivo.)


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## LI-SVT (Sep 28, 2006)

Doesn't the brand of CC have to match your head end? In my case the local cable co uses NDS CCs. Wouldn't that mean a Motorola card wouldn't work for me? I wonder if that is the case with the OP, the head end supports SA CCs and not Motorola.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

LI-SVT said:


> Doesn't the brand of CC have to match your head end? In my case the local cable co uses NDS CCs. Wouldn't that mean a Motorola card wouldn't work for me? I wonder if that is the case with the OP, the head end supports SA CCs and not Motorola.


You know I thought the same thing when the OP started saying they would try a different mfr, head end and card have to be matched is what I've always heard.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Well, I didn't know at the time starting down this road what the head end equipment was.. I've since gotten in touch with a technician for my cableco and he affirmed that they use SA PKM600 cards for single stream and PKM800 cards for multistream. So that certainly fits in-line with what y'all are saying. I only wasted about $5 on a moto card before I knew all that, so no worries there. The tech also indicated that TiVo units used to access those (free HD broadcast) channels without a card in them at all, and that he doesn't believe they do anymore after they consolidated their DNCS (whatever that is), because they no longer assign a virtual channel number to them any more, since they don't have a consistent line-up between their different regions..

So with that information, it seems that all the pieces are starting to fit together nicely. There are still plenty of unknowns- like will this work for someone else on a different cable network? Is the fact of unprovisioned cards working specific to particular settings on the head-end equipment, or is it a more universal fact? Who knows.. But for now I'm getting the channel map for all but one of those free HD broadcast stations, which is a lot more than I used to have, so I am very pleased. We'll see how long it lasts.

Interestingly, about two or three weeks after the SA card was successfully installed, my wife called to say that no matter what she did on that Tivo, trying to watch LiveTV was black (even standard analog channels). She could go watch NPL programs but no TV channels.. I can't recall now whether or not I tried to reboot it first (I think I did?), but I know that after removing and reinstalling the SA card, the channels came back. During the boot process it had to do something (re-aquire the channel map?), but then the channels came back just as before.. all our analog channels plus the free HD broadcast channels. It's been 2-3 weeks now since that happened, so I'm curious if it was a one-time thing or if it's going to happen again within the next two weeks..

I also went ahead and bought two more SA cards in case my S3OLED Tivo ever stops receiving the free HD broadcast channels. It still has no card in it (and my dad's S3HD never HAS had a card in it), and still tunes the free HD broadcast channels just fine. For some reason, my S3HD wouldn't until I put in a card.. In the back of my head I wonder if the previous owner had a card installed, whereas my dad's has never had one installed period..

anyway, enough update for today. sorry it got long. 
..dane


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

audiodane said:


> *So, as it stands today*, the card has *not* been paired, has *not* been activated, but I *have* gotten some kind of channel map.


Well, today marks 101 days since the above comment was made. 901 still doesn't tune, but all the other free OTA re-broadcast channels (nbc, cbs, abc, etc) still tune just fine and record just fine. So the 90 day concern that was raised earlier seems to not be the case. Getting the proper card on eBay for the proper head unit, at least in my case, seems to have worked like a charm.

*Now, to be clear, before someone misunderstands me--* I am NOT getting channels I didn't pay for! I am NOT getting free cable! What I'm getting are the free broadcast channels (abc, cbs, nbc, pbs) that I' already paying for (even with basic analog cable), in digital HD format. The channels that anyone can already be getting with an antenna. THOSE are the channels I'm getting..

happy tuning!
..dane


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Yeah, I didn't reread the whole thread, but the title is misleading. As I said above, I knew that you could get broadcast data for OTA-rebroadcast channels with an unpaired card.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

mattack said:


> Yeah, I didn't reread the whole thread, but the title is misleading. As I said above, I knew that you could get broadcast data for OTA-rebroadcast channels with an unpaired card.


Well, yes, thanks, but when I started this thread, that answer was certainly not very well understood, and also fairly hotly debated.. Hindsight is what it is. Not only is the card not paired, it's also not even activated. For that matter, it's not even from the same cable company. So I think this thread has done some good to clear some things up, at the least..

And yes, the title is probably not very clear. I would be happy to request a thread re-name, but honestly I don't know what would be the best new title? It fit when the thread was stated, but has morphed into what it is now..

cheers,
..dane


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

audiodane said:


> someone with basic analog cable who wants to also get the fcc-mandated free broadcast channels without the hassle of an OTA antenna..
> 
> cheers,
> ..dane


Why not pay a professional installer to install an antenna in your attic or on the roof, since you don't want the hassle of installing it? It would still be even cheaper in the long run. You've spent a great deal of time installing cable cards and rerunning guided setup to get this to work. The time you spent with these cablecards could have been spent setting up an antenna and then you could cancel cable.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

shwru980r said:


> Why not pay a professional installer to install an antenna in your attic or on the roof, since you don't want the hassle of installing it? It would still be even cheaper in the long run. You've spent a great deal of time installing cable cards and rerunning guided setup to get this to work. The time you spent with these cablecards could have been spent setting up an antenna and then you could cancel cable.


Two part answer- I have, and I can't. *I have*, in that I had tried several antennas, including several tried and true DIY approaches as can be researched at AVSforum (one of the most knowledgeable places for antenna design). Things improved a good bit, but not enough to fully transition season passes to OTA-only recording. We live in a valley in between two close hills... tvfool.com confirms we're in a tough spot.. *I can't*, in that even if that had worked, we have a large number of family programming recorded that is not carried on broadcast channels. So even if the antenna work succeeded, we'd still have our cable bill for the other shows we watch. So, why bother with iffy OTA? If we're keeping cable anyway, why not get cablecards working and get those same HD channels.. So in the end that's what brought me down this road..

cheers,
..dane


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## real_goose (Oct 24, 2009)

Thanks dane. This thread was very useful to me. I ordered an M card and now I have guide data for all the clear QAM stations on my local FiOS system. I mainly use the HD for OTA, but there are several QAM channels I was also watching. The addition of guide data makes me very happy.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

real_goose said:


> Thanks dane. This thread was very useful to me. I ordered an M card and now I have guide data for all the clear QAM stations on my local FiOS system. I mainly use the HD for OTA, but there are several QAM channels I was also watching. The addition of guide data makes me very happy.


great! I am so glad that others are finding this thread useful!

..dane


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## JimG19 (Jun 30, 2005)

Audiodane or anyone,

I am currently attempting to do this as well. When you inserted the unpaired card, did you then run guided set-up with the card in *or* had you already run guided setup (saying you would get the card later) and merely insert the unpaired card?

If it is the latter, did you get the "acquiring channel information" screen, and if so, for how long? Also, did you have to reboot afterward to get the channels to come up? Anything you can recall, I would appreciate.

Jim


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

JimG19 said:


> I am currently attempting to do this as well. When you inserted the unpaired card, did you then run guided set-up with the card in *or* had you already run guided setup (saying you would get the card later) and merely insert the unpaired card?
> 
> If it is the latter, did you get the "acquiring channel information" screen, and if so, for how long? Also, did you have to reboot afterward to get the channels to come up? Anything you can recall, I would appreciate.


Sorry Jim for not responding sooner. I don't come around here too often right now. So many things going on, it's hard to juggle them all.

I think my TivoHD did NOT make me re-run guided setup, since I had already set it up using the digital lineup. The "acquiring channel information" twirly wheel did come up, and after about 10 minutes of it I rebooted the Tivo, as I recall. Long story short, I think I finally decided to just leave it alone, and eventually it popped up a screen that it was downloading a firmware update (which took a while.. 30 minutes?). After that, things worked automagically.

Now, with all that said..

WOW (was Knology) just decided to really mess with things.. Both our Tivo's are acting up in different ways. But even some channels are out with the CATV straight into the back of the TV. I called WOW today and they acknowledged that they're undergoing some system changes right now. They've offered to roll a truck, but I'm currently messing with the two spare CC's that I have along with some Tivo settings first to see what I can do about it on my own first. I don't think shows that the unpaired CC idea is flawed, but I do think it shows that it may entirely depend on how they have the system configured. It may have been more lenient before and it may be more strict now.

WOW said that our market will be going all-digital in a few months and they are beginning to prep for that. They said when that happens two DTA's will be free per household. I can only hope that means my personal CC's in my Tivo's will be free too and they won't try to sneak in some "digital outlet fee" again like they've done in the past. I'll just have to wait a few months for all that to settle out though and see what happens.

good luck!
..dane


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

audiodane said:


> WOW said that our market will be going all-digital in a few months and they are beginning to prep for that. They said when that happens two DTA's will be free per household.
> 
> I can only hope that means my personal CC's in my Tivo's will be free too and they won't try to sneak in some "digital outlet fee" again like they've done in the past.


I have 2 TiVos that use cable cards, 3 cards in total.
TimeWarner charges for all 3 cable cards, though card #1 is discounted.
They also charge for a second outlet.
They also incorporate SDV which requires a tuning adapter for each TiVo; but it is supplied for "no extra" (yea right!) charge.

Do you have FIOS in your area? That could be a better alternative.


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## JimG19 (Jun 30, 2005)

audiodane said:


> Sorry Jim for not responding sooner. I don't come around here too often right now. So many things going on, it's hard to juggle them all.
> 
> I think my TivoHD did NOT make me re-run guided setup, since I had already set it up using the digital lineup. The "acquiring channel information" twirly wheel did come up, and after about 10 minutes of it I rebooted the Tivo, as I recall. Long story short, I think I finally decided to just leave it alone, and eventually it popped up a screen that it was downloading a firmware update (which took a while.. 30 minutes?). After that, things worked automagically.


Hi Dane,

Glad you took the time to get back to me. Almost given up. When I first got the card, I put it in and it seemed to stay on the acquiring channels screen, so I just took the unpaired card out at that time. I will try again and see if it can "automagically" happen for me. Would be nice to get guide data on the locals.

Thanks.

Jim


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> There was a suggestion recently in another thread that a CableCard purchased from eBay worked for mapping, even though it couldn't be authorized or paired, and so couldn't decrypt anything. I can't vouch for this, but it's an intriguing possibility.


Now I can.


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## JimG19 (Jun 30, 2005)

Did not work for me. Got a Motorola card, which is the same as my cable company uses. When I inserted card, it updated to latest software however it stayed stuck on "Acquiring channel information" screen. 

Jim


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## wrkalot (Oct 18, 2013)

audiodane said:


> WOW said that our market will be going all-digital in a few months and they are beginning to prep for that. They said when that happens two DTA's will be free per household. I can only hope that means my personal CC's in my Tivo's will be free too and they won't try to sneak in some "digital outlet fee" again like they've done in the past. I'll just have to wait a few months for all that to settle out though and see what happens.
> 
> good luck!
> ..dane


Dane,

I suspect you are in FL? I am in Clearwater, FL and the WOW digital transition is starting at the end of the month. After doing a channel scan yesterday we now get about 15 channels labeled 0-0, with no guide data. Like you we have the Expanded Basic line up that is provided through a "bulk" account through our condo association.

I am very curious to find out if they are going to charge for the CC we will need for our TiVoHD. The did send the 2 DTA's but they are really any good to us.


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## wrkalot (Oct 18, 2013)

@audiodane Were you able to get the CC for free?


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## teasip (Aug 24, 2002)

So for those of us with FiOS, the general consensus that a single Motorola M card, acquired off eBay, and non-activated, will allow for installation into a TiVoHD and channel mapping of QAM channels, correct?


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