# TiVo CEO resigned



## grimmace92 (Dec 22, 2014)

Not good. Citing personal reasons...


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

TiVo CEO resigns to join Liberty Global


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

JoeKustra said:


> TiVo CEO resigns to join Liberty Global





> We are fortunate to have a world-class leadership team in place and are pleased to have someone of Raghu's caliber step in to lead the Company," James Meyer, chairman of the board, said in a statement.


That's reassuring -- isn't it? Wasn't GM management making such statements just before they declared bankruptcy?


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

What ever happened to the captain going down with his ship?


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

Another user who had enough with the Guide Data.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Sounds like it boils down to him finding a better job as CTO of the world's largest cable operator outside the US, Liberty Global. Perhaps he was privy to some negative developments coming down the pike for TiVo and he wanted out, but my guess is that it was just a case of him not enjoying the CEO role at TiVo.

That said, it's certainly not a good look for TiVo that their new CEO lasted only 7 months and now they're back to having an interim CEO. Definitely contributes to the sense that TiVo is a rudderless ship. But I don't think it suggests that TiVo is necessarily a _sinking_ ship.

Meanwhile, the next quarterly earnings call will be in about a month. Maybe we'll get some more news then on where things stand (like when new retail products manufactured by their new outside partner will hit stores) in the saga of "As the TiVo Turns".


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## rdrrepair (Nov 24, 2006)

A CEO was lured away with a better job offer? It happens every day of the week. I'd be more upset with longer members of the TiVo family (Margaret) leaving than a newly hired gun. All bets are off if Ted had left.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> But I don't think it suggests that TiVo is necessarily a _sinking_ ship.


It may not be a question of whether TiVo is a sinking ship or not but rather is the hull half full or half empty?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

rdrrepair said:


> ... I'd be more upset with longer members of the TiVo family (Margaret) leaving ...


Funny that when Margaret's name comes up it us usually with great design reverence but when Hydra comes up it is the devils own spawn.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

humbb said:


> Another user who had enough with the Guide Data.


You're assuming he was a user. Hard to believe many of top management are serious users -- if they were, the guide data would be better -- or they would be planning to leave. Hmmm......


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

Could be a positive for Tivo. Mr Rodriquez may be an example of the "Peter Principle".

Job History:
Liberty Global: Jul 2018 - 
Tivo: Nov 2017 to Jul 2018
AT&T: Aug 2015 to Nov 2017
Sirius XM: Oct 2012 to Jul 2015
Cisco: Jun 2010 to Aug 2011
Microsoft: 2003-2010
Thomson/RCA: 20 years

From Bloomberg:
Mr. Enrique Rodriguez has served as the President and Chief Executive Officer and a member of the Board of Directors of TiVo Corporation since November 2017. Mr. Rodriguez was Executive Vice President and Chief Technical Officer of AT&T, Inc.'s Entertainment Group from August 2015 to November 2017. From January 2013 to July 2015, he served as Executive Vice President, Operations and Products of Sirius XM and was Group Vice President of Sirius XM from October 2012 to January 2013. Mr. Rodriguez was the Senior Vice President and General Manager of Cisco Systems' Service Provider Video Technology Group. Mr. Rodriguez also held various executive positions at Microsoft from 2003 to 2010, including Corporate Vice President for the TV Division and as Vice President of Xbox Partnerships. Prior to joining Microsoft, Mr. Rodriguez spent over 20 years at Thomson/RCA in a variety of engineering and executive roles where he was awarded over 25 U.S. patents and international derivatives. Mr. Rodriguez holds a B.S. in electrical engineering from Mexico's Instituto Tecnológico de Monterrey.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> Perhaps he was privy to some negative developments coming down the pike for TiVo and he wanted out


We're all privy to one thing... CableCARD is on the way out and the FCC is not mandating a replacement. So in the not to distant future it'll be impossible to use a TiVo with your paid cable subscription. (Comcast is suppose to start it's IPTV conversion this year)

Once this happens a huge portion of TiVos user base will be eliminated and they will likely discontinue the retail product. They might be able to survive on leased boxes through cable providers, but I doubt it.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

ah30k said:


> Funny that when Margaret's name comes up it us usually with great design reverence but when Hydra comes up it is the devils own spawn.


From Margaret's history and the attitude she displayed here, I would guess that she might have been forced by events to release Hydra unfinished and missing features. I wouldn't be surprised if that were to be a factor in her departure.


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## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

dlfl said:


> You're assuming he was a user. Hard to believe many of top management are serious users -- if they were, the guide data would be better -- or they would be planning to leave. Hmmm......


Well, he did say in his resignation that he intends to stay a customer....


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

mrsean said:


> Well, he did say in his resignation that he intends to stay a customer....


Yeah, his TiVo employment contract probably had included a houseful of free Bolts and VOX Minis, all with Lifetime.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Lurker1 said:


> What ever happened to the captain going down with his ship?


He was fired. Expect bad numbers next report out.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Lurker1 said:


> What ever happened to the captain going down with his ship?


Golden Parachutes


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

ah30k said:


> Funny that when Margaret's name comes up it us usually with great design reverence but when Hydra comes up it is the devils own spawn.


There's no real contradiction there. It's perfectly possible to like Margaret, miss Margaret, and not like Hydra.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> We're all privy to one thing... CableCARD is on the way out and the FCC is not mandating a replacement. So in the not to distant future it'll be impossible to use a TiVo with your paid cable subscription. (Comcast is suppose to start it's IPTV conversion this year)
> 
> Once this happens a huge portion of TiVos user base will be eliminated and they will likely discontinue the retail product. They might be able to survive on leased boxes through cable providers, but I doubt it.


Well, yeah, that's true about CableCARD. But I think TiVo has seen the handwriting on the wall for some time now, hence the shift toward providing TiVo boxes to cable MSO partners.

And even though we still tend to think that the company known as TiVo is mainly about actual TiVo boxes, it's not. It's really about licensing data and technology patents to other companies. In a few years, it will probably be completely about that, after both their retail business and MSO partner businesses have died.

I'm honestly not sure what's so special about the Hydra UI, so that, as they transition from QAM to IPTV, a small-to-midsized MSO would choose to adopt TiVo solutions as opposed licensing X1 from Comcast (like Cox has done) or, even easier, just opting for MobiTV's new white-label cloud-based IPTV solution. Or just becoming a reseller of OTT TV service from AT&T/DirecTV or Hulu or YouTube TV, etc. Either of those latter two options are fairly turnkey operations that get the MSO completely out of the business of negotiating channel carriage contracts and provisioning STBs, leaving them to mainly focus on their broadband business.

Seems inevitable to me that all TV services will eventually move to the cloud and be offered nationwide, whether they are distributed to the customer directly (OTT) or via a local broadband provider (managed IPTV). That sort of centralized, aggregated approach provides so much efficiency and scale that it can't ultimately be beaten on a cost basis except perhaps by the very largest traditional MVPDs such as Comcast and Charter.


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## halx (Jul 6, 2018)

NashGuy said:


> Well, yeah, that's true about CableCARD. But I think TiVo has seen the handwriting on the wall for some time now, hence the shift toward providing TiVo boxes to cable MSO partners.
> 
> And even though we still tend to think that the company known as TiVo is mainly about actual TiVo boxes, it's not. It's really about licensing data and technology patents to other companies. In a few years, it will probably be completely about that, after both their retail business and MSO partner businesses have died.
> 
> ...


They got to do something quick. Signed Detroit


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Can they just make @TiVo_Ted CEO?


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

sfhub said:


> Can they just make @TiVo_Ted CEO?


Nah, he's REALLY upset with the Guide Data too (he just can't say that).


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

The thought of not having my TiVo and being required to use Comcast's X1 system makes me nauseated. I've had a TiVo since 2000. I can't imagine not having it after more than 18 years of having one.

I currently have a Bolt+ with 7 Minis (5 Vox Minis, 2 1st Gen Minis). Comcast charges an additional outlet fee with each TV. That would mean an extra $70/month for TV's in my house.

I'm praying TiVo survives.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Why wouldn't Tivo stay in business selling OTA DVRs? There are other companies in business selling OTA DVRs. I would think the cable companies would have to keep a legacy QAM service running for a few years with maybe just a basic cable package.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)




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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> Why wouldn't Tivo stay in business selling OTA DVRs? There are other companies in business selling OTA DVRs. I would think the cable companies would have to keep a legacy QAM service running for a few years with maybe just a basic cable package.


I don't think there are enough units. I wouldn't want to limit myself to just OTA television, so it would be pointless. Many others feel the same way.


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## halx (Jul 6, 2018)

NorthAlabama said:


>


All hands haha


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## alexb (Jan 4, 2003)

Definitely Peter principle. I worked at Microsoft from 2001 to 2010 and have no clue who he is, pretty much a middle level exec who lucked out. He took the TiVo ceo position to position for another ceo position. This makes it more likely of private equity coming in, that will be death knell if they are asset strippers.


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## alexb (Jan 4, 2003)

kdmorse said:


> There's no real contradiction there. It's perfectly possible to like Margaret, miss Margaret, and not like Hydra.


It's also possible not to really have any feelings wrt Margaret and like hydra.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

geekmedic said:


> I wouldn't want to limit myself to just OTA television, so it would be pointless. Many others feel the same way.


As a 10+ ex Dish customer and a 10 year ex DirecTV customer and a 3+ year TiVo OTA customer I beg to differ.

Although it was hard to give up some of the SAT programming I ran from DirecTV when AT&T bought it.
Customer service went down the tubes and prices went UP and then UP and then UP.

Comcast was priced out of consideration and steaming was more effort than it is worth to me.

Bought two Roamio OTA boxes and set up an antenna. Makes us happy with the channels we get
and our Roamios always seem to have recorded enough stuff to make us happy. I was happy to see
how easy it was to give up DBS programming, after the initial withdrawal, and save a small fortune every year.

I'm thinking there are more people out there who don't want to pay cell phone service prices every month
to watch TV than some marketing departments and many bystanders think.

TiVo is perfectly positioned to OWN the OTA market with the Roamio OTA... if they can get the guide to work.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

alexb said:


> It's also possible not to really have any feelings wrt Margaret and like hydra.


If somebody likes Hydra, I wouldn't care about any other opinion they might have.


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## bbrown9 (Mar 12, 2011)

shwru980r said:


> Why wouldn't Tivo stay in business selling OTA DVRs? There are other companies in business selling OTA DVRs. I would think the cable companies would have to keep a legacy QAM service running for a few years with maybe just a basic cable package.


I don't have good reception where I live so OTA is not an option.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

just4tivo said:


> As a 10+ ex Dish customer and a 10 year ex DirecTV customer and a 3+ year TiVo OTA customer I beg to differ.
> 
> Although it was hard to give up some of the SAT programming I ran from DirecTV when AT&T bought it.
> Customer service went down the tubes and prices went UP and then UP and then UP.
> ...


Even with occasional Guide issues, the Roamio OTA is great. But the issue is the numbers--OTA is such a smaller market than "cable" et al.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

just4tivo said:


> TiVo is perfectly positioned to OWN the OTA market with the Roamio OTA... if they can get the guide to work.


The Roamio OTA is definitely the best DVR for those who only rely on OTA TV (or who mainly rely on OTA TV and only supplement it with a bit of HD streaming from Netflix, YouTube, etc.).

But I think the problem for TiVo is that there aren't all that many people who fit into that category. I'd say that the great majority of people who watch OTA TV, and who care enough about TV to consider spending hundreds of dollars on a DVR, are also people who rely quite a bit on streaming. Most of those folks (known as "cord-cutters") actually value the TV they watch via streaming more than via OTA. They already own and are familiar with one or more streaming devices like Roku, Apple TV, and Fire TV, all of which offer a much broader selection of apps that are better supported and better functioning than is the case with apps on the Roamio OTA.

An OTA DVR that costs $300-400 but doesn't perform well as a streaming box isn't ever going to be a popular product.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> An OTA DVR that costs $300-400 but doesn't perform well as a streaming box isn't ever going to be a popular product.


It will because it can RECORD FREE programming OTA..

There is a sizeable segment of the population that does not have high speed internet available or who may choose not to pay for it or who can't afford to pay for it.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

just4tivo said:


> It will because it can RECORD FREE programming OTA..
> 
> There is a sizeable segment of the population that does not have high speed internet available or who may choose not to pay for it or who can't afford to pay for it.


Do you think those cheap-skates are willing to pony up $300 for a TiVo?


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

ej42137 said:


> Do you think those cheap-skates are willing to pony up $300 for a TiVo?


Even for people of modest means amortizing the $300 cost of a Roamio over three years and enjoying FREE OTA TV with the luxury of a DVR beats paying $150 a month plus the cost of a set top box (Roku or the like) and the cost of a computer that they might not have (cause NOT everyone does).

Calling people who are in areas where there is no broadband, or who can't afford the monthly expense cheap-skates is arrogant and uncalled for.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> Do you think those cheap-skates are willing to pony up $300 for a TiVo?


Yes. Just because one might not want to be paying $600-$1000/year on cable, or can't afford that, does not make one a pejorative "cheap-skate."


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Someone who doesn't wish to purchase goods for sale for fiscal reasons is a "cheap-skate" by definition. That is only pejorative if you are the one with the goods to sell.

Perhaps you all are unaware, but in the 19th and 20th centuries, the greater proportion the US population moved from rural to urban environs. Data from the last census indicates that this trend continues, and moreover the population currently living in rural environments have significantly less per capita income than the population in the cities. From these facts, my experience living in areas from rural Winnemucca to urban Los Angeles, and my opinion based on micro economic principles that people without economic resources tend not to spend money on expensive luxury electronics, I don't think the market for the TiVo OTA has significant potential. (Except perhaps for your uncle who retired to Montana with an IRA and a pension, but in any case he doesn't get any OTA reception.)

That "sizeable segment of the population willing to pay for it" does not exist.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

Is OTA, Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime the future of TV?


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

If you take out the OTA part of the list ... yes.


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## rdrrepair (Nov 24, 2006)

ej42137 said:


> Someone who doesn't wish to purchase goods for sale for fiscal reasons is a "cheap-skate" by definition. That is only pejorative if you are the one with the goods to sell.


 The only "cheap-skate" I know clips to your sneaker with a key.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

just4tivo said:


> It will because it can RECORD FREE programming OTA..
> 
> There is a sizeable segment of the population that does not have high speed internet available or who may choose not to pay for it or who can't afford to pay for it.


So someone who cant afford to pay for high speed internet is going to pay the high out of pocket cost for a TiVo? I take it you've never had to live on a tight budget?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> Someone who doesn't wish to purchase goods for sale for fiscal reasons is a "cheap-skate" by definition. That is only pejorative if you are the one with the goods to sell.


Perhaps by _your_ definition. By that of others, also perhaps someone who can't afford the items, or someone who is frugal (different from being a "cheap-skate") and/or purchases carefully.


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## DVR_Dave (Apr 19, 2017)

just4tivo said:


> It will because it can RECORD FREE programming OTA..
> 
> There is a sizeable segment of the population that does not have high speed internet available or who may choose not to pay for it or who can't afford to pay for it.


But ... you still need internet (and related equipment) to get guide data, etc. And unfortunately it seems that low speed internet costs the same or more than high speed internet since there are rarely special offers on low speed internet. YMMV.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> So someone who cant afford to pay for high speed internet is going to pay the high out of pocket cost for a TiVo? I take it you've never had to live on a tight budget?


That's the key... a budget. Spread out the cost of a TiVo Roamio over a few years at minimum CC payments or pay that $300 (cost of a Roamio OTA) to the cable company in TWO MONTHS and $150 for every month after that.

For some people it could be pay for internet or pay for groceries and for some people it might just be a matter of principle NOT to pay the high cost of broadband where they are if it is available.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

DVR_Dave said:


> But ... you still need internet (and related equipment) to get guide data, etc. And unfortunately it seems that low speed internet costs the same or more than high speed internet since there are rarely special offers on low speed internet. YMMV.


That's true... I hadn't thought of that since support for dial up has been killed.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DVR_Dave said:


> And unfortunately it seems that low speed internet costs the same or more than high speed internet since there are rarely special offers on low speed internet. YMMV.


True dat! At home (Houston), high speed cable Internet for about $50/month. 1,000GB of data, lots of speed.

At our ranch, where no landlines exist, I have to use a cell tower & Verizon to create a wifi hotspot, and buy megabucks of data. I think I'm paying $200/month for 40GB , and I get about 3-6 mbps of speed . And no streaming.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Can we keep the cheapo/internet access discussion to just one thread?


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2006)

ej42137 said:


> Perhaps you all are unaware, but in the 19th and 20th centuries, the greater proportion the US population moved from rural to urban environs. Data from the last census indicates that this trend continues, and moreover the population currently living in rural environments have significantly less per capita income than the population in the cities. From these facts, my experience living in areas from rural Winnemucca to urban Los Angeles, and my opinion based on micro economic principles that people without economic resources tend not to spend money on expensive luxury electronics, I don't think the market for the TiVo OTA has significant potential. (Except perhaps for your uncle who retired to Montana with an IRA and a pension, but in any case he doesn't get any OTA reception.)
> 
> That "sizeable segment of the population willing to pay for it" does not exist.


Driving around in the country this weekend we noticed more and more brand new houses nice enough to be called mansions. It looks like the newest trend is for young folks to split segments. One segment wants the crowds of downtown. The other segment moves out into the country and makes a living there very well. I suspect a large number of these folks work on-line. That means broadband access does gradually move farther and farther out into rural areas.

Austin has long been a high tech center but broadband now seems available more than an hour drive out into the country in any direction. It's still a tiny slice of gigantic Texas but it's a growing slice.

My parents generation moved out into the suburbs after WW2. Now my grandchildren look like they'll end up not in the suburbs when they leave the next in roughly a decade.


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> The Roamio OTA is definitely the best DVR for those who only rely on OTA TV (or who mainly rely on OTA TV and only supplement it with a bit of HD streaming from Netflix, YouTube, etc.).
> 
> But I think the problem for TiVo is that there aren't all that many people who fit into that category. I'd say that the great majority of people who watch OTA TV, and who care enough about TV to consider spending hundreds of dollars on a DVR, are also people who rely quite a bit on streaming. Most of those folks (known as "cord-cutters") actually value the TV they watch via streaming more than via OTA. They already own and are familiar with one or more streaming devices like Roku, Apple TV, and Fire TV, all of which offer a much broader selection of apps that are better supported and better functioning than is the case with apps on the Roamio OTA.
> 
> An OTA DVR that costs $300-400 but doesn't perform well as a streaming box isn't ever going to be a popular product.


To me, the search function and streaming merger function of Tivo worked better than Roku only a year ago. In the last year their database got sick, rotted and fell off like a big old tree splitting up. The entire Hulu catalog fell away and then show after show on other streaming services saw seasons appear in their app but not in the database.

The OTA function still works very well but there's already one subchannel of PBS has a very poor mapping of programs broadcast to what appears in the menu display.

The DVR burner that brought me to Tivo hasn't been available since Series 2 and will never be available for reasons I understand, but that does not change the fact that to me that was a killer app market differentiator.

Combine this with the recent destruction of suggestions and Tivo is rapidly losing its viability. How soon before it's not better than the smart TV functions built into my new TVs? We got a UHD TV recently that says it downloads broadcast schedules - If I could find it again in its menu.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

just4tivo said:


> It will because it can RECORD FREE programming OTA..
> 
> There is a sizeable segment of the population that does not have high speed internet available or who may choose not to pay for it or who can't afford to pay for it.


I don't disagree that there is a slice of the population (mainly those over 60, if I had to guess) that's interested in a $300-400 box that does a very good job of recording OTA TV but not much else. And I don't deny that amortizing the cost of that box out over its potential useful lifespan makes it a bargain for those who heavily watch OTA TV (and get good reception with an antenna that doesn't need to be repositioned for different channels).

I just disagree with your contention that that slice of the population is "sizeable". I don't think it is, at least relatively speaking. And as streaming becomes more and more popular, it will continue to shrink.

Is that market slice big enough for this new company that will manufacture TiVo hardware to keep on cranking out Roamio OTAs (or an updated version, perhaps a Bolt OTA)? I don't know. We'll see. As I understand it, TiVo is now completely done with manufacturing, so once the current batch of Roamio OTA VOXes sitting in warehouses is sold through, that product _could_ be discontinued.


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

Using Tivo for OTA is definitely a luxury. There are many cheaper alternatives which provide adequate capability. The cheap-o OTA people will get a $30 DVR and setup time/channel recordings. The cheap-o DVR will use the guide data that comes on the OTA signal to label the recordings. If you can afford a Tivo it's worth it, but it's not like it's the only way manage OTA recording. Many of us survived in the olden days of a VCR when you had to remember which unlabeled tape had the show you wanted to watch.

I wish Tivo would just bundle Roku rather than trying to have it's own app support. I think that would be a stronger OTA product. The OTA viewer is going to want more flexibility with streaming apps, and the Tivo app support is too limited. If I want the streaming app from my local news station, I can get it on Roku but not Tivo.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> Driving around in the country this weekend we noticed more and more brand new houses nice enough to be called mansions. It looks like the newest trend is for young folks to split segments. One segment wants the crowds of downtown. The other segment moves out into the country and makes a living there very well. I suspect a large number of these folks work on-line. That means broadband access does gradually move farther and farther out into rural areas.
> 
> Austin has long been a high tech center but broadband now seems available more than an hour drive out into the country in any direction. It's still a tiny slice of gigantic Texas but it's a growing slice.
> 
> My parents generation moved out into the suburbs after WW2. Now my grandchildren look like they'll end up not in the suburbs when they leave the next in roughly a decade.


Urbanization continues unabated, according to current census data. What you're describing is "urban sprawl", the city taking over the rural areas as local population increases. Lots of people move out to the countryside, but lots more are moving the other direction.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Mikeguy said:


> Perhaps by _your_ definition. By that of others, also perhaps someone who can't afford the items, or someone who is frugal (different from being a "cheap-skate") and/or purchases carefully.


Does calling them "frugal" cause them to buy a TiVo?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> Does calling them "frugal" cause them to buy a TiVo?


Sorry, I don't follow. My only point was, lotta mainstay people out there. But, of course, far from the cable-user numbers.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Mikeguy said:


> Sorry, I don't follow. My only point was, lotta mainstay people out there. But, of course, far from the cable-user numbers.


Whatever you call this subgroup, "cheap-skate", "frugal", "penny-wise" or whatever, they are unlikely to become a significant market for TiVo.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Cable TV is going to keep on getting more expensive and at some point people are going to bail, just like I did. The cable bundles and discounts are ending. In Los Angeles, there a probably Millions of people who subscribe to cable and many, if not almost all of them can get great antenna reception for 100+ channels. 

There are plenty of potential customers.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> Whatever you call this subgroup, "cheap-skate", "frugal", "penny-wise" or whatever, they are unlikely to become a significant market for TiVo.


Except that, TiVo itself seems to think that there is a number there, having specifically devoted the Roamio OTA for this group, including price-wise.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

OTA is all but dead... more people subscribe to Netflix than cable and a large percentage of them (more so the younger they are) prefer Netflix. Streaming is the future in one form or another. The stations realize this and are abandoning the major networks by adding x number of sub-channels regardless of their affect on the image quality. Their (last) effort to delay the inevitable.

Sure there is a (small) market while it lasts but the demise of cable is driven by the young not us old farts that look to OTA. It simply doesn't fit into their ecosystem.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> Except that, TiVo itself seems to think that there is a number there, having specifically devoted the Roamio OTA for this group, including price-wise.


If the statistical data showed that OTA viewers were insignificant then advertisers would be running from the major networks.

The TiVo OTA hardware is already out there on the market and the R&D and software is already expensed.

I'd be doing some advertising to see how lucrative (or not) the OTA market is whether it be Baby Boomers, cheap-skates, or cord cutters.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

just4tivo said:


> If the statistical data showed that OTA viewers were insignificant then advertisers would be running from the major networks.


No. Keep in mind that a large majority of the viewership of ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox is from folks who get those channels as part of a pay TV package (cable, satellite, telco, OTT skinny bundle). Seems like the last stat I heard said that only 17% of US households actually use an OTA antenna, although that figure has crept up a bit in the last few years, thanks to cord-cutting.

So, theoretically 17% of US homes might be interested in an OTA DVR. That's a significant amount! Except that few of those folks are actually interested enough in the content on OTA stations to spend $300-400 for a DVR to record that content. For a lot of them, OTA TV is just a freebie -- "Hey, I'll get whatever channels I can get with this indoor antenna. I'll watch it a bit, but the stuff I really care about, I stream." Cord-cutters and cord-nevers (those who never had traditional pay TV in the first place) are now conditioned to spending under $100 for streaming boxes and sticks (with the exception of the highest-end products like Apple TV, which are still under $200). If a TiVo had all the same high-quality apps that Roku, Fire TV and Apple TV have, and could integrate that content alongside live and recorded OTA TV, then maybe it could break through and become a mainstream product among cord-cutters/cord-nevers at the $300-400 price point. But, as we all know, TiVo just doesn't stack up against the competition very well when it comes to streaming.

Beyond that, the technology culture (for lack of a better term) is just shifting away from the idea of recording stuff. Once you move primarily to on-demand services like Netflix, Hulu, etc., you realize how much more convenient it is rather than having to set up and delete recordings. That whole process just feels clunky and unnecessary to younger folks who've never really done it in the first place. (Which is probably why skinny bundles like YouTube TV try to make their cloud DVR as simple as possible -- "like" a show and the entire series records to the cloud with unlimited storage space, so there's no deleting or managing your recordings.)


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Mikeguy said:


> Except that, TiVo itself seems to think that there is a number there, having specifically devoted the Roamio OTA for this group, including price-wise.


My counter argument that TiVo considers this a failed experiment: Bolt OTA.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> So, theoretically 17% of US homes might be interested in an OTA DVR. That's a significant amount! Except that few of those folks are actually interested enough in the content on OTA stations to spend $300-400 for a DVR to record that content. For a lot of them, OTA TV is just a freebie -- "Hey, I'll get whatever channels I can get with this indoor antenna. I'll watch it a bit, but the stuff I really care about, I stream." Cord-cutters and cord-nevers (those who never had traditional pay TV in the first place) are now conditioned to spending under $100 for streaming boxes and sticks (with the exception of the highest-end products like Apple TV, which are still under $200).


Your "theoretical" 17% of viewers is not statically insignificant and a pretty decent market to cultivate.
And while the DBS and cable companies are driving more and more people to cut the cord with every price increase that market increases.

I don't believe that "Cord-cutters and cord-nevers" are blindly " conditioned to spending under $100 for streaming boxes and sticks" plus the monthly subscription and on demand costs for streaming services. Some "Cord-cutters and cord-nevers" are exactly that because they made an informed, conscious, choice to be exactly that.

Not everyone embraces multiple remotes, multiple inputs, buying internet access they may not currently have, or may not be able to get, or faster internet access than they feel they're paying too much for already and love the ability to view programming they've recorded (locally) at their convenience.

VCRs ruined a lot of us decades ago and DVRs continued to make us happy recording programming locally. More than a few of us may not want the added cost or complexity of streaming or on demand when we can have what is satisfying us now that we are familiar with and comfortable using at one FIXED, not monthly, cost.

While streaming and on demand may be the "thing" for many, many are doing just fine right where they're at and how they are watching TV now.

It's always easy to spend someone else's money for them or to tell them that what satisfies YOU is better for them.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

ej42137 said:


> My counter argument that TiVo considers this a failed experiment: Bolt OTA.


I agree that the Bolt 500GB OTA was a failed experiment... more expensive and not really better than the Roamio OTA for OTA.

The Roamio OTA 1TB is prominently presented for sale at the TiVo Store and on Amazon.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

just4tivo said:


> It's always easy to spend someone else's money for them or to tell them that what satisfies YOU is better for them.


Hahahahaha! Listen, man, the market has ALREADY SPOKEN. The number of Roku, Apple TV, and Fire TV boxes and sticks (not to mention other app-enabled devices like smart TVs and game systems) FAR OUTNUMBERS the TiVos currently in use to record OTA TV. You can think whatever you like but if your theory was correct, there would be a LOT more OTA DVRs in use than there are.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

just4tivo said:


> Not everyone embraces multiple remotes, multiple inputs, buying internet access they may not currently have, or may not be able to get, or faster internet access than they feel they're paying too much for already and love the ability to view programming they've recorded (locally) at their convenience.


You seem to be arguing against your own side here. Because TiVos aren't very good streaming devices, buying one probably means that the owner WILL end up using different inputs and remotes -- TiVo for OTA TV and a streaming box like Roku for everything else. (However, that isn't the case if you go with a network OTA DVR like Tablo.)

And as you've conceded already, having a TiVo requires an internet connection to get the guide data. And you don't need a very fast connection to stream HD content. A 10 Mbps internet plan is fast enough to stream the best quality 1080p from Netflix. A 5 Mbps internet plan would support 720p HD from a range of apps.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> You seem to be arguing against your own side here. Because TiVos aren't very good streaming devices, buying one probably means that the owner WILL end up using different inputs and remotes -- TiVo for OTA TV and a streaming box like Roku for everything else. (However, that isn't the case if you go with a network OTA DVR like Tablo.)


My point is... TiVo for OTA and nothing else for nothing else.

A network DVR like Tablo also needs internet access, doesn't it?

But as I already said... I hadn't thought about needing internet access for the guide.
But if the guide gets any worse there is always setting up manual recordings.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

just4tivo said:


> I agree that the Bolt 500GB OTA was a failed experiment... more expensive and not really better than the Roamio OTA for OTA.


I think you misunderstood my post.


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## parkcastle (Jan 14, 2016)

I still have my TiVo BOLT for OTA, but I stream constantly. First Direct TV Now with the free Apple TV. I have now switched to Youtube TV and love it. It doesn't have a ton of channels, but unlike Direct TV now, I get all the local channels, including when I travel. Setting up cloud DVR is really simple, and I can actually get a good quality stream on my iPad when I fly with Southwest over their crappy WiFi. Something I could never do with Direct TV Now and TiVo out of home. I also watch NetFlix and have the Sunday Football Ticket Apple TV which is awesome. I have no desire to return to cable and I'm Gen X.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> My counter argument that TiVo considers this a failed experiment: Bolt OTA.





just4tivo said:


> I agree that the Bolt 500GB OTA was a failed experiment... more expensive and not really better than the Roamio OTA for OTA.
> 
> The Roamio OTA 1TB is prominently presented for sale at the TiVo Store and on Amazon.


Exactly. TiVo must be continuing to actively market the Roamio OTA for a reason . . . .


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Mikeguy said:


> Exactly. TiVo must be continuing to actively market the Roamio OTA for a reason . . . .


They have a warehouse full of them that they're trying to get rid of. If they had been good sellers, they would have built some Bolt OTAs instead of just showing it at CES. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of them spending any money on Roamio OTA marketing.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> You seem to be arguing against your own side here. Because TiVos aren't very good streaming devices, buying one probably means that the owner WILL end up using different inputs and remotes -- TiVo for OTA TV and a streaming box like Roku for everything else. (However, that isn't the case if you go with a network OTA DVR like Tablo.)
> 
> And as you've conceded already, having a TiVo requires an internet connection to get the guide data. And you don't need a very fast connection to stream HD content. A 10 Mbps internet plan is fast enough to stream the best quality 1080p from Netflix. A 5 Mbps internet plan would support 720p HD from a range of apps.


Not only that but the streaming boxes I've used work and resemble everyones smart phone. Apps all in a grid or line and you just click on one. There is almost no learning curve. They seem natural to use. Not much to figure out compared to a DVR of any brand.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> They have a warehouse full of them that they're trying to get rid of. If they had been good sellers, they would have built some Bolt OTAs instead of just showing it at CES. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of them spending any money on Roamio OTA marketing.


LOL, TiVo has been selling the Roamio OTA for years now. As past TiVo box promotions have shown, TiVo likely just doesn't have warehouses full of boxes around made years ago waiting to be sold for the coming decade. And as to your latter point, TiVo doesn't do much marketing at all nowadays (when is the last time you saw a television commercial for a TiVo box?) and has continued selling the Roamio OTA regardless.


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2006)

just4tivo said:


> My point is... TiVo for OTA and nothing else for nothing else.


Which is a VERY new development. Only one year ago the stream merger function of Tivo worked well enough that it beat Roku so badly I didn't even keep a Roku box available.

Then this year WHAM. The stream merger function of Tivo failed catastrophically. Suddenly for streaming content Tivo is no better than what's on my smart TV. I still don't keep a Roku box available as it's now built into any new TV under a year old above some level of quality. We saw Roku, Chromecast and a custom version similar to either.

We were at Costco this weekend and they were still selling TVs without smart TV functions. I bet next year you'll be able to go to the store and not see any TVs without smart TV built in. At that point in two years Tivo will have gone from better than anything else to something built into every new TV. If Tivo does not resolve this their market share will plummet and it will be time to queue the bugle dirge music, one Tivo subscriber at a time. We're already seeing posts by long time customers leaving Tivo.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

dfreybur said:


> We were at Costco this weekend and they were still selling TVs without smart TV functions.


Costco (among others) are selling Smart TVs that don't have an ATSC tuner. Employees I've talked to @ Costco tell me that many tunerless TVs they sell come back when the customer gets it home and finds that their Smart TV doesn't do anything without the internet. They tell me they prominently mark tunerless TVs as such and take the time to explain in detail what no tuner means when a customer shows any interest in one.

It may not be that the customer won't accept a Smart TV, whether they intend to stream or not, but that they expect an off the air tuner.

For some it might be that if it's there is OTA programming for free they want it.

For others it might be that OTA is what they watch and that satisfies them.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Roku has licensed a lot of patents from TiVo to support certain features, including search and navigation, now available in their Roku smart TVs. You can pause and rewind live OTA TV. The TV can also recognize the show you're watching OTA and then show you "more ways to watch" via popular streaming apps.

Of course, that doesn't amount to full OTA DVR functionality, but it's enough for a lot of users, I imagine. I don't know why US TV makers have never included the rudimentary OTA DVR features that their non-US models have included for years now. For instance, LG had a DVR feature called Time Machine that could be enabled for free by connecting a USB hard drive, but the feature was always disabled in their US models. (However, I still see occasional references to it in the menus and alerts of my US LG, even though the feature isn't there.) I suppose it's because the TV manufacturer would have to pay licensing money to TiVo (or face a lawsuit from them) if they offered such a feature in the US, and they figure it's not worth the money since it wouldn't do much to boost sales.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> I don't know why US TV makers have never included the rudimentary OTA DVR features that their non-US models have included for years now. For instance, LG had a DVR feature called Time Machine that could be enabled for free by connecting a USB hard drive, but the feature was always disabled in their US models. (However, I still see occasional references to it in the menus and alerts of my US LG, even though the feature isn't there.) I suppose it's because the TV manufacturer would have to pay licensing money to TiVo (or face a lawsuit from them) if they offered such a feature in the US, and they figure it's not worth the money since it wouldn't do much to boost sales.


EXACTLY right. The licensing fees would raise the unit price against competitor's models impacting sales.

There's a reason that Baskin-Robbins makes 31 flavors. OTA for some, OTA/streaming for others, streaming for others, DTV and cable for others.

There's no right or wrong or best or better. It's what works for that viewer and as long as that viewer is a recognized market that is profitable manufacturers will/should avail themselves of that revenue, BUT... some businesses make money despite their best efforts not to.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> Roku has licensed a lot of patents from TiVo to support certain features, including search and navigation, now available in their Roku smart TVs. You can pause and rewind live OTA TV. The TV can also recognize the show you're watching OTA and then show you "more ways to watch" via popular streaming apps.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't amount to full OTA DVR functionality, but it's enough for a lot of users, I imagine. I don't know why US TV makers have never included the rudimentary OTA DVR features that their non-US models have included for years now. For instance, LG had a DVR feature called Time Machine that could be enabled for free by connecting a USB hard drive, but the feature was always disabled in their US models. (However, I still see occasional references to it in the menus and alerts of my US LG, even though the feature isn't there.) I suppose it's because the TV manufacturer would have to pay licensing money to TiVo (or face a lawsuit from them) if they offered such a feature in the US, and they figure it's not worth the money since it wouldn't do much to boost sales.


I always question the "they figure it's not worth the money since it wouldn't do much to boost sales" logic. Features can be differentiating in a sea of same-ness--I, for one, would love a "regular" television with TiVo-like features. (Although, I guess I already have that, with my TiVo attached, lol.)


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

just4tivo said:


> EXACTLY right. The licensing fees would raise the unit price against competitor's models impacting sales.


Although that raises the question: do TiVo's patents with regard to DVR functionality not extend to major European and Asian markets too? Because LG did include their free Time Machine OTA DVR feature in TVs they sold in those markets. Maybe the difference is simply that those markets use OTA TV to a MUCH greater extent than do Americans. I don't know.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> I always question the "they figure it's not worth the money since it wouldn't do much to boost sales" logic. Features can be differentiating in a sea of same-ness--I, for one, would love a "regular" television with TiVo-like features. (Although, I guess I already have that, with my TiVo attached, lol.)


Seems like marketing people are rarely connected to the market much like designers and engineers never seem to have had to actually use the products they design.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> I always question the "they figure it's not worth the money since it wouldn't do much to boost sales" logic. Features can be differentiating in a sea of same-ness--I, for one, would love a "regular" television with TiVo-like features. (Although, I guess I already have that, with my TiVo attached, lol.)


Yeah. For a smart TV to have, let's call it "high-quality" OTA DVR functionality, the manufacturer would need to include at least a 2nd OTA tuner in the TV, they'd presumably need to license patents from TiVo, and they'd need to supply at least 7 days worth of guide data on an ongoing basis (although that could be a cheap ongoing annual subscription fee charged to the customer, such as the $25/yr plan from Schedules Direct). And then there's the hard drive, although that could be made the consumer's responsibility via a USB port.

Considering that most TVs have a thin profit margin, a manufacturer couldn't just absorb those costs if they added OTA DVR into every model. So prices would have to go up. And while the feature would attract some buyers, the higher prices would repel even more because, again, the vast majority of Americans do not use OTA TV. (You'd be surprised how many, like my neighbors who saw me putting up an outdoor antenna, had no idea that free OTA TV even existed.)

Of course, they could just add OTA DVR to certain models with a higher price. But that complicates manufacturing, marketing, distribution, etc. In the end, I'm sure the TV manufacturers figured it's better to leave OTA DVR functionality as an add-on feature from niche hardware providers like Tivo and Tablo.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. For a smart TV to have, let's call it "high-quality" OTA DVR functionality, the manufacturer would need to include at least a 2nd OTA tuner in the TV, they'd presumably need to license patents from TiVo, and they'd need to supply at least 7 days worth of guide data on an ongoing basis (although that could be a cheap ongoing annual subscription fee charged to the customer, such as the $25/yr plan from Schedules Direct). And then there's the hard drive, although that could be made the consumer's responsibility via a USB port.
> 
> Considering that most TVs have a thin profit margin, a manufacturer couldn't just absorb those costs if they added OTA DVR into every model. So prices would have to go up. And while the feature would attract some buyers, the higher prices would repel even more because, again, the vast majority of Americans do not use OTA TV. (You'd be surprised how many, like my neighbors who saw me putting up an outdoor antenna, had no idea that free OTA TV even existed.)
> 
> Of course, they could just add OTA DVR to certain models with a higher price. But that complicates manufacturing, marketing, distribution, etc. In the end, I'm sure the TV manufacturers figured it's better to leave OTA DVR functionality as an add-on feature from niche hardware providers like Tivo and Tablo.


But there are different levels of functionality. I wouldn't expect a TiVo-less TV to act like a TiVo. But how about pause, rewind/ff, 8-second review, and a remote that isn't a sea of similar-sized buttons?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. For a smart TV to have, let's call it "high-quality" OTA DVR functionality, the manufacturer would need to include at least a 2nd OTA tuner in the TV, they'd presumably need to license patents from TiVo, and they'd need to supply at least 7 days worth of guide data on an ongoing basis (although that could be a cheap ongoing annual subscription fee charged to the customer, such as the $25/yr plan from Schedules Direct). And then there's the hard drive, although that could be made the consumer's responsibility via a USB port.
> 
> Considering that most TVs have a thin profit margin, a manufacturer couldn't just absorb those costs if they added OTA DVR into every model. So prices would have to go up. And while the feature would attract some buyers, the higher prices would repel even more because, again, the vast majority of Americans do not use OTA TV. (You'd be surprised how many, like my neighbors who saw me putting up an outdoor antenna, had no idea that free OTA TV even existed.)
> 
> Of course, they could just add OTA DVR to certain models with a higher price. But that complicates manufacturing, marketing, distribution, etc. In the end, I'm sure the TV manufacturers figured it's better to leave OTA DVR functionality as an add-on feature from niche hardware providers like Tivo and Tablo.


They could go bare bones and just add the DVR software, use PSIP data or VCR functonality, and add an sd card slot for storage. Similar to a single tuner S2 where you could only watch previously recorded shows while the DVR was recording.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

shwru980r said:


> They could go bare bones and just add the DVR software, use PSIP data or VCR functonality, and add an sd card slot for storage. Similar to a single tuner S2 where you could only watch previously recorded shows while the DVR was recording.


Yeah, and I think that's about the level of functionality that was offered by LG and other TV manufacturers in their free build-in OTA DVRs in other countries. And frankly, given my level of OTA DVR usage at this point, that would be sufficient for me. But perhaps even that would still require patent licensing from TiVo in the US? Because, again, if not, why would manufacturers remove such a feature from their US-specific models?



Mikeguy said:


> But there are different levels of functionality. I wouldn't expect a TiVo-less TV to act like a TiVo. But how about pause, rewind/ff, 8-second review, and a remote that isn't a sea of similar-sized buttons?


Well, that kind of functionality IS built-in with regards to a buffer of live OTA TV on Roku smart TVs. Just not the ability to set up future recordings or even store the current live show.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I still think if TiVo wants to stay in the OTA DVR business after CableCARD is gone their best bet is to release a Tablo like device where the DVR is headless and you watch your recordings via an app that runs on popular streaming devices like AppleTV, Roku, etc...

Get rid of their failed attempt at "one box" and make their box do the best it can at the thing it's good at, recording TV.

Another cool option would be to offer their own PSVue like service with cloud based DVR that integrates seamlessly into an OTA DVR and just bypass cable completely. However I had a TiVo exec tell me once they looked into that and the logisitics are just too much for a company of their size. (Apple has had trouble getting a service like this off the ground)


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> I still think if TiVo wants to stay in the OTA DVR business after CableCARD is gone their best bet is to release a Tablo like device where the DVR is headless and you watch your recordings via an app that runs on popular streaming devices like AppleTV, Roku, etc...


I agree. You have a large market in place which you can draw from (millions of streaming devices). I looked at Tablo when it first shipped and if it didn't mess with the image quality I would have probably gone that route when I swapped TiVos over the years. At the same time Android TV (Live TV) has gone nowhere for several years which might mean the demand isn't there (more than likely) or they have handled it rather poorly... not unlikely as well. If it was serviceable I'd swap my TiVo for HDHomeRun Quad tuners.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Charles R said:


> I agree. You have a large market in place which you can draw from (millions of streaming devices). I looked at Tablo when it first shipped and if it didn't mess with the image quality I would have probably gone that route when I swapped TiVos over the years. At the same time Android TV (Live TV) has gone nowhere for several years which might mean the demand isn't there (more than likely) or they have handled it rather poorly... not unlikely as well. If it was serviceable I'd swap my TiVo for HDHomeRun Quad tuners.


Not sure what your definition of "serviceable" is, but there are some decent network-based OTA DVR solutions that use HDHomeRun tuners. Channels (originally just for Apple TV but now on multiple devices) is very nice. I use it for live TV but I don't subscribe to their $8/mo. DVR service. Plex DVR is another option that keeps getting better. Not up to TiVo levels yet but I think they'll eventually get close enough.

At any rate, yes, Dan203 is right. Assuming there's a new model of OTA DVR from TiVo (or, rather, from their new retail manufacturer), it needs to be network-based, like Tablo, and use a TiVo app as the front-end on Apple TV, Roku, Fire TV and Android TV devices.

In that scenario, though, I wonder if the TiVo app could still integrate streaming content into their OnePass system or if the TiVo app would just have to focus solely on live and recorded OTA content. I don't know if Apple, Roku, Amazon or Google allow third-party apps to have deep links to content within other third-party apps, which would be necessary for a TiVo app to let the user click on the latest episode of, say, an ABC show and choose whether to watch it as an OTA recording or via the Hulu app instead.

We may find the answer to that before long, as I believe it was confirmed (by TiVo Ted?) that TiVo will soon release TiVo apps that work on the popular streaming hardware platforms. They would presumably have at least the functionality of the old TiVo app for Fire TV, which more or less replicated a TiVo Mini. I would imagine that whatever functionality the upcoming new TiVo apps will have when used in conjunction with current Bolts and Roamios, they could fairly easily be repurposed to use in conjunction with a network-based OTA DVR.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Charles R said:


> I agree. You have a large market in place which you can draw from (millions of streaming devices). I looked at Tablo when it first shipped and if it didn't mess with the image quality I would have probably gone that route when I swapped TiVos over the years. At the same time Android TV (Live TV) has gone nowhere for several years which might mean the demand isn't there (more than likely) or they have handled it rather poorly... not unlikely as well. If it was serviceable I'd swap my TiVo for HDHomeRun Quad tuners.


A TiVo would have to "mess with the image quality" too. This is the nature of using a streaming device for playback. OTA still uses MPEG-2 encoding, some interlaced. Most (all?) of these streaming devices require progressive H.264 video. So for it to work properly the DVR has to recode the broadcast to a compatible format. They can either do that while recording or at playback, but if you've ever used TiVo's streaming function you'd know that recoding at playback has it's own downsides. So the best solution is to recode during recording. That doesn't mean the video will look bad. You know the video you get from your cable company has been recoded like 4-6 times before it gets to you right? Broadcasters store the original video in a MUCH different format then they ultimately send it to the local affiliates, and local affiliates trasncode at least once more to account for bandwidth restrictions and to insert local ads. So what you're getting OTA is far from pristine. If you want a really high quality OTA signal you can set up a BUD (Big Ugly Dish) in your yard and pick up the signal the national broadcasters send to the local affiliates. These are typically ~35mbps H.264 streams with Dolby-E audio, so they require special software just to handle.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> I don't know if Apple, Roku, Amazon or Google allow third-party apps to have deep links to content within other third-party apps, which would be necessary for a TiVo app to let the user click on the latest episode of, say, an ABC show and choose whether to watch it as an OTA recording or via the Hulu app instead.


I believe they do. iOS does on the Apple side, so I'm not sure why tvOS wouldn't and we know that Android does because they had that functionality in the beta FireTV app they had going for a while. Not sure about Roku, but I bet they do.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Mikeguy said:


> Exactly. TiVo must be continuing to actively market the Roamio OTA for a reason . . . .





Mikeguy said:


> LOL, TiVo has been selling the Roamio OTA for years now. As past TiVo box promotions have shown, TiVo likely just doesn't have warehouses full of boxes around made years ago waiting to be sold for the coming decade. And as to your latter point, TiVo doesn't do much marketing at all nowadays (when is the last time you saw a television commercial for a TiVo box?) and has continued selling the Roamio OTA regardless.


Which is it? Are they actively marketing the Roamio OTA or not? And what is the manufacture date on a new Roamio OTA?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> Which is it? Are they actively marketing the Roamio OTA or not? And what is the manufacture date on a new Roamio OTA?


TiVo is continuing to market the Roamio OTA just as it does its other boxes, as far as I see.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> I believe they do. iOS does on the Apple side, so I'm not sure why tvOS wouldn't and we know that Android does because they had that functionality in the beta FireTV app they had going for a while. Not sure about Roku, but I bet they do.


On the few occasions some time back when I used the old TiVo app on iOS or Android, and clicked on a show title in a OnePass from an outside app (e.g. HBO Go), all it did was launch that app and take me to its initial home screen. It didn't take me to the actual show within the app, the way it works on a TiVo DVR. Has that changed?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> On the few occasions some time back when I used the old TiVo app on iOS or Android, and clicked on a show title in a OnePass from an outside app (e.g. HBO Go), all it did was launch that app and take me to its initial home screen. It didn't take me to the actual show within the app, the way it works on a TiVo DVR. Has that changed?


I think that's app specific. Same applies to the apps on the TiVo itself. Some can take you directly to the episode you clicked, some can only take you to the show's page. On iOS they use a sort of URL syntax for deep linking in another app. But the app itself has to support it, and TiVo would need to know the syntax of the URL to get to the exact show/episode.

Really this functionality doesn't work all that well on the TiVo itself either, so I wouldn't expect it to work great on 3rd party devices either. It's too data dependant and requires too much cooperation between TiVo and the app providers.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Really this functionality doesn't work all that well on the TiVo itself either, so I wouldn't expect it to work great on 3rd party devices either. It's too data dependant and requires too much cooperation between TiVo and the app providers.


Hmm. OK. As I recall, the deep linking on my Roamio OTA did usually work quite well for content within the Netflix, Hulu and Amazon apps. But perhaps, like other aspects of TiVo's database of streaming content metadata, that functionality has degraded over time...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Hmm. OK. As I recall, the deep linking on my Roamio OTA did usually work quite well for content within the Netflix, Hulu and Amazon apps. But perhaps, like other aspects of TiVo's database of streaming content metadata, that functionality has degraded over time...


It works great when the data is there. For example, my TiVo still doesn't know about the latest season of Unbreakable Kimmie Schmidt nor the second season of Anne with an E. And just forget about Star Trek Discovery even though I got it through amazon.


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. For a smart TV to have, let's call it "high-quality" OTA DVR functionality, the manufacturer would need to include at least a 2nd OTA tuner in the TV, they'd presumably need to license patents from TiVo, and they'd need to supply at least 7 days worth of guide data on an ongoing basis (although that could be a cheap ongoing annual subscription fee charged to the customer, such as the $25/yr plan from Schedules Direct). And then there's the hard drive, although that could be made the consumer's responsibility via a USB port.


Our new LG smart TV asked our zip code during initial set up. It said it was to download OTA schedules. I wondered if it was actually to gather demographics data but since we have Tivo I didn't bother hunting through the TV's menus to find an OTA schedule screen.

The owner's manual that came with the TV says nothing about on screen menus. That gives them plenty of room to do networked software fixes.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

dfreybur said:


> Our new LG smart TV asked our zip code during initial set up. It said it was to download OTA schedules. I wondered if it was actually to gather demographics data but since we have Tivo I didn't bother hunting through the TV's menus to find an OTA schedule screen.
> 
> The owner's manual that came with the TV says nothing about on screen menus. That gives them plenty of room to do networked software fixes.


Probably is for guide. Most TVs just use what is in the PSIP which has some guide data.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> A TiVo would have to "mess with the image quality" too. This is the nature of using a streaming device for playback. OTA still uses MPEG-2 encoding, some interlaced. Most (all?) of these streaming devices require progressive H.264 video.


It depends on what formats the device supports. Many support MPEG-2 with only deinterlacing required. Of course many don't. The newer HDHomeTuners support built-in transcoding which I haven't followed close enough to know how well it works. Bottom line I don't care how the image is delivered as long as it's as detailed as the original which from what I have heard Tablo has never been able to do.

I used WMC and DVBLink over the years (PC based DVRs) and both were great and had features I preferred over TiVo and TiVo has some features I preferred over theirs. Having gone back to TiVo (several years now) I simply haven't found a usable replacement in both features and price.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Charles R said:


> It depends on what formats the device supports. Many support MPEG-2 with only deinterlacing required. Of course many don't. The newer HDHomeTuners support built-in transcoding which I haven't followed close enough to know how well it works. Bottom line I don't care how the image is delivered as long as it's as detailed as the original which from what I have heard Tablo has never been able to do.


I bought a Tablo and used it for a few months. I had the transcoding set to the highest quality level and, even though I'm pretty discerning about picture quality, I honestly didn't notice any degradation vs. the original MPEG-2 OTA signal direct to my LG TV's built-in tuner. The thing that I didn't like about the Tablo though, is that the transcoding meant that it was just no good for live TV since changing channels took way too long.

Now I use an HD HomeRun network tuner in conjunction with apps on my Apple TV 4K for live and recorded TV (Channels and Myth TV, respectively). Even though the Apple TV 4K and those apps deal with the original MPEG-2 1080i, 720p and 480i broadcast streams, I find that the picture quality isn't as good as it was with Tablo. It's not a huge deal, but I do notice some weird artifacts with really bright colors -- apparently something that the HD HomeRun is introducing with whatever processing it does to the broadcast signal.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> The thing that I didn't like about the Tablo though, is that the transcoding meant that it was just no good for live TV since changing channels took way too long.


The inherent delay with digital tuning combined with the delay introduced by decoding, recoding, and buffering on the streaming device is always going to cause this to be an issue. Streaming to a mobile device from a TiVo has the same issue, and it doesn't support live TV just streaming existing recordings.

There is simply no way to avoid this. The only way to avoid this would be for the device you're streaming to to allow the original video stream to be played without recoding, which is what the Mini does. But most other streaming devices on the market don't support MPEG-2 video and most (all?) do not support interlaced video. There is also the problem with bandwidth. An ATSC MPEG-2 stream can be as high as 19.2Mbps which is a lot for a typical wifi to handle, especially if you have multiple devices going at once. There is a reason the Mini doesn't support wifi and requires ethernet or MoCa. Those networks allow for more bandwidth and for that bandwidth to be more stable when dealing with that bandwidth.

So there are going to be trade offs with either method. Either TiVo has to design their own streaming device, ala the Mini, that supports all the formats being broadcast but perhaps can't get support for all the apps people want. Or they transcode videos to a standard format supported by the popular streaming devices on the market.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> The inherent delay with digital tuning combined with the delay introduced by decoding, recoding, and buffering on the streaming device is always going to cause this to be an issue. Streaming to a mobile device from a TiVo has the same issue, and it doesn't support live TV just streaming existing recordings.
> 
> There is simply no way to avoid this. The only way to avoid this would be for the device you're streaming to to allow the original video stream to be played without recoding, which is what the Mini does. But most other streaming devices on the market don't support MPEG-2 video and most (all?) do not support interlaced video. There is also the problem with bandwidth. An ATSC MPEG-2 stream can be as high as 19.2Mbps which is a lot for a typical wifi to handle, especially if you have multiple devices going at once. There is a reason the Mini doesn't support wifi and requires ethernet or MoCa. Those networks allow for more bandwidth and for that bandwidth to be more stable when dealing with that bandwidth.
> 
> So there are going to be trade offs with either method. Either TiVo has to design their own streaming device, ala the Mini, that supports all the formats being broadcast but perhaps can't get support for all the apps people want. Or they transcode videos to a standard format supported by the popular streaming devices on the market.


Changing live channels using a Tablo on my Apple TV 4K is NOTHING like changing live channels using the Channels app and an HD HomeRun Connect network tuner.

With Tablo, there's a wait of several seconds before you see the new channel. But with the latter set-up (which I currently use), channels change very quickly, almost as quickly as when using the TV built-in tuner. In both cases, I had both the Apple TV and the tuning device (Tablo or HD HomeRun) connected to my router via ethernet.

I know that the HD HomeRun Connect isn't transcoding, it's passing on the original MPEG-2 OTA stream, whether interlaced or progressive scan. The Channels app does the de-interlacing (it provides different de-interlacing methods you can choose from). I'm not sure if the processor in the Apple TV 4K natively supports MPEG-2 hardware decoding or if it's just so powerful that the Channels app can do it in software.

At any rate, the sort of delay that Tablo introduces with live channel changing is NOT unavoidable. I'm quite happily avoiding it now.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Does the HDHomeRun have software for all streaming devices? Roku, FireTV, Chromecast? Does it perform as well on those devices?


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## Scooter Scott (Jun 1, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Does the HDHomeRun have software for all streaming devices? Roku, FireTV, Chromecast? Does it perform as well on those devices?


Live TV - Silicon Dust

These are all the devices that are supported. Roku and chromecast are not on the list.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Scooter Scott said:


> Live TV - Silicon Dust
> 
> These are all the devices that are supported. Roku and chromecast are not on the list.


Looks like no Roku and only by mirroring on ATV along with the older versions of Fire TV.... they seem to be limiting their audience.


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## parkcastle (Jan 14, 2016)

So does anyone know why another TiVo CEO resigned and took a demotion at another company? They seem to be losing a lot of executives. Their COO resigned after a year and took a VP role at Amazon. TiVo is Rovi, a company that is known for being a patent troll. They are not interested in making products.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

parkcastle said:


> So does anyone know why another TiVo CEO resigned and took a demotion at another company? They seem to be losing a lot of executives. Their COO resigned after a year and took a VP role at Amazon. TiVo is Rovi, a company that is known for being a patent troll. They are not interested in making products.


The Tom Carson CEO departure (the 'first' in recent history) was simply due to retirement of a long-time employee who rose through the ranks and became CEO.

The COO was most likely in the candidate pool to become CEO when he abruptly resigned. You can make assumptions about what it means when the COO is interviewed for CEO then ends up resigning. My gut tells me that he saw the writing on the wall and that he wasn't going to get the promotion.

In comes a replacement CEO who then abruptly departs. This is a little harder to wrap my head around. Was he overwhelmed by the role? Scared of the business prospects? Not getting along with the BoD? We'll likely never know but he never did have a track record of success as a CEO.

On Rovi/TiVo being a patent troll, I don't think a company that operates so actively and spends so much in operations and R&D can really be called a 'troll' even though they do make money from licensing IP. Were you considering the former TiVo a troll since they made most of their money from IP? Or perhaps your definition of troll is someone who you don't like that makes money from IP.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Does the HDHomeRun have software for all streaming devices? Roku, FireTV, Chromecast? Does it perform as well on those devices?


I honestly haven't tried using my HD HomeRun Connect tuner with anything other than my Apple TV. I know that Roku can't handle MPEG-2 (Roku doesn't license that codec), so that would be out. Although I would think that the HD HomeRun Extend, which offers MPEG-4 re-encoding, could be used with Roku (assuming that there's a compatible front-end app on Roku).

These tuners are DLNA-compatible, so they use a standard protocol for distributing the stream over the home network. Any third party could design an app to work with these tuners. Channels (now available on Apple TV, Fire TV and Android TV) is one example. Heck, I was amused to find, when stumbling around in the home networking menus on my old Panasonic Blu-ray player, that it will able to discover and display live program streams from the HD HomeRun! The UI was weird -- no grid or list of identifiable channels -- but I was able to click on menu choices and up popped my local ABC or CBS station through the Blu-ray player.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

TiVo Ted MIA almost a week now, hopefully he has not sailed ship


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

foghorn2 said:


> TiVo Ted MIA almost a week now, hopefully he has not sailed ship


Comcast Cable Cards No Long Compatible with VOD on Fiber Networks

He's back.


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

I wonder if one of the fundamental reasons the Tivo is not doing well is because of the culture of their engineering departments? When I look at jobs available, the majority of open software engineering jobs are outside the USA (Poland, India and other countries). That seems like a bad idea. I would prefer the engineers that build the thing to be using it at home.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

avaddict said:


> I wonder if one of the fundamental reasons the Tivo is not doing well is because of the culture of their engineering departments? When I look at jobs available, the majority of open software engineering jobs are outside the USA (*Poland, India *and other countries). That seems like a bad idea. I would prefer the engineers that build the thing to be using it at home.


Presumably, $.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

avaddict said:


> I would prefer the engineers that build the thing to be using it at home.


It has been my experience in a number of industries I've been employed in that engineers too often aren't made to use what they design.

It may look good on paper and the cost analysis department loves it but it is a PITA in the field and generates unnecessary support calls.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

just4tivo said:


> If the statistical data showed that OTA viewers were insignificant then advertisers would be running from the major networks.
> 
> The TiVo OTA hardware is already out there on the market and the R&D and software is already expensed.
> 
> I'd be doing some advertising to see how lucrative (or not) the OTA market is whether it be Baby Boomers, cheap-skates, or cord cutters.


Why would they run from the major networks? The vast majority of people watch the major networks from their local affiliates. And that is from cable or satellite. Not from OTA.
People watching from OTA are very much a minority. And it has been that way for a very long time.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> Why would they run from the major networks? The vast majority of people watch the major networks from their local affiliates. And that is from cable or satellite. Not from OTA.
> *People watching from OTA are very much a minority. And it has been that way for a very long time.*


Yeah but, we make up for it by being quality.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

avaddict said:


> I wonder if one of the fundamental reasons the Tivo is not doing well is because of the culture of their engineering departments? When I look at jobs available, the majority of open software engineering jobs are outside the USA (Poland, India and other countries). That seems like a bad idea. I would prefer the engineers that build the thing to be using it at home.


Since Rovi renamed the company TiVo, you can't tell which of those software engineering jobs are related to the prior Rovi side of the business versus the prior TiVo side of the business.

Scott


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

CEO Search off. Possibly split Rovi and TiVo.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1027537485931442176
@davezatz


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

If they split I hope TiVo will go back to TMS/Gracenote program guide data!


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## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

I think that would only be possible if the Tivo part is sold to someone else. If it is strictly a stock spin off then I wouldn't hold my breath as Rovi would still be the "owner" of Tivo.


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

dlfl said:


> If they split I hope TiVo will go back to TMS/Gracenote program guide data!


I'd doubt that. There would probably be a very favorable license given to the new "Tivo".


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

This seems like an excellent time to drop $1,050 on a top-of-the-line TiVo with lifetime service, no?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Their considering splitting by Product/IP, not Rovi/TiVo. There will be IP from both sides in one and Product from both sides in the other.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ah30k said:


> Their considering splitting by Product/IP, not Rovi/TiVo. There will be IP from both sides in one and Product from both sides in the other.


So, under that proposed configuration, I guess the IP company might have, say, Altice USA and AT&T as clients, since those companies' TV services license TiVo patents and/or Rovi guide data. The new product company might have RCN and Service Electric as clients, since they actually use the TiVo-branded UI and feature set on their own cable boxes and/or apps. And it would also be this latter product company that would be responsible for continuing to provide service to retail TiVo DVRs and also sell those DVRs on Tivo.com.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> So, under that proposed configuration....


I'm not sure how this all might shake out. One of TiVo's big go-to-market sales synergies/strategies was to offer guide and other product along with IP licensing as a package deal. While I don't know how well it worked out, it seems plausible as a sales pitch. "Buy our guide service and other product and we won't sue the s#$%4 out of you. A split in the company would definitely upset that synergy. I don't know enough to handicap that impact which is certainly real. As far as cross-licensing would go, I bet any future deal structure would certainly include ProductCo licenses to all of IPCo patents.


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## mahermusic (Mar 12, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> This seems like an excellent time to drop $1,050 on a top-of-the-line TiVo with lifetime service, no?


No. Not $1,050... but $298? Absolutely!


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## parkcastle (Jan 14, 2016)

So does that mean they will now be looking for 2 CEOs? The TiVo soap opera has had so many twists in the last few years, it's better than what's on my DVR.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

parkcastle said:


> So does that mean they will now be looking for 2 CEOs?


The interim CEO said they were going to 'pause' the search until the strategic alternative activity comes to a conclusion. They don't want to select someone until they know the go-forward state.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ah30k said:


> Their considering splitting by Product/IP, not Rovi/TiVo. There will be IP from both sides in one and Product from both sides in the other.


This sounds retarded to me. I can't see any possible benefit in doing this other than loading all the good stuff into one and the bad stuff into the other and cutting it loose as a sinking ship destined to fail.


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