# Wiring Mini to avoid V87 error?



## billdz (May 14, 2015)

Hello,

My new Mini keeps getting a V87 error. Usually there is normal picture and audio for 5-10 seconds, then the picture freezes, then the V87 error message appears. This is a MoCA connection, and all network settings appear to be correct. Network Diagnostic reports that the internet connection is "working correctly". The main DVR is a Roamio Plus, in my living room. The Mini is in the bedroom. The Actiontec MoCA adapter is in the office by the router.

Support suggested putting the Mini in the living room next to the Roamio, using a splitter to divide the input between the Roamio and the Mini, and putting the Mini output to a different HDMI port on the living room TV. I did this, and in this configuration, the Mini works as it should. Thus, the issue apparently involves the cabling to the bedroom.

I had not really thought the cabling could be an issue. The Mini was attached to the same coax to which my Xfinity box had been attached, and that box always worked fine. The Mini diagnostic said that the internet was connected correctly, and my router GUI verified that the Mini was on the LAN. So I'm not sure what's up. Xfinity installed my setup about 2 years ago, so the splitters and coax are fairly new. All I know is that the outside cable comes up the side of the house and into the attic. I assume that in the attic there is a 3-way splitter, with one cable to the office (where the router is located), one to the living room (where the Roamio is now), and one to the bedroom (where the Mini is now). I'll crawl around the attic after work to try to see what's up, but I may be out of luck or may need a professional installer.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
b


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

billdz said:


> Hello,
> 
> My new Mini keeps getting a V87 error. Usually there is normal picture and audio for 5-10 seconds, then the picture freezes, then the V87 error message appears. This is a MoCA connection, and all network settings appear to be correct. Network Diagnostic reports that the internet connection is "working correctly". The main DVR is a Roamio Plus, in my living room. The Mini is in the bedroom. The Actiontec MoCA adapter is in the office by the router.
> 
> ...


Hi,
This sounds like a MoCA / bandwidth problem in which the MoCA speed is too low to provide a stable signal to the mini. I don't know how Xfinity works but if it uses MoCA like Tivo...hard to say. D
Do you have a POE / Whole Home DVR filter on the input from the main house feed? If the first split is in the attic, that's where the filter should go on the input to the splitter. Non-MoCA amps, poor cabling and splitters, loose connectors, are the most likely cause of MoCA problems. 
Terminate any open coax ports on splitters or coming out of the wall with a 75 ohm terminator, tighten all connections, replace any suspect cables or ends. If the problem persists, try replacing all splitters with MoCA rated ones.
You have pretty much ruled out a problem with the MoCA adapter and the mini's MoCA, so my best guess is that if you replace that first splitter with a MoCA rated one....and install the filter, you will be good.


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## billdz (May 14, 2015)

OK thanks, went to the attic, there is one 1 to 3 splitter, input from the cable that comes from outside and output to the office (router), living room (Roamio), and bedroom (mini). The port labeled 3.5db goes to the router, the 7db ports go to the living room and bedroom. There are no open or loose ports, the coax and the splitter appear to be in decent condition. I do not have an external filter, as I was told it was unnecessary because the Ariss TM822G cable modem has a built in MoCA Immunity Filter.

At the splitter, I reversed the coax connections going to the living room and the bedroom, so if there was anything wrong with the splitter the bedroom should have started working and the living room should have started getting the V87. But the situation stayed the same, V87 only in bedroom. 

Does the Mini require a faster connection than the Xfinity box? As mentioned, the Xfinity box is working fine in the bedroom. Is there any easy way to measure the MoCa speed/bandwidth? Then I could compare bedroom speed with living room speed.

Based on the fact that switching the splitter outputs had no effect, at this point I can only assume that the problem is somewhere in the coax between the splitter and the bedroom. I'm in trouble if this is the case, because this coax goes through walls and beams and would be tough to replace.


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## bfollowell (Aug 24, 2013)

To me, that splitter looks a little iffy. I guess looking old and dirty doesn't mean it isn't working but, it looks questionable to me. Depending on if you have any other splitters anywhere in your system, those could be causing enough signal drop to cause you some problems. Personally, I don't like splitters like this. I like splitting everything right at the main demarc point for my house and using a unity amp/splitter, so that there is no signal loss to any of the branches. Of course, sometimes, especially in older homes, you're much more limited to what you can do.

For me, I found MoCA to be problematic at best, at least for any streaming. Viewing recorded shows or live TV from my main Roamio, I don't think I ever experienced a problem and it was very rock solid. Streaming content was really hiccuppy and would often just crash out altogether.

I should mention that my house is brand new, just completed last fall, with RG-6 and CAT6 ran everywhere from a centralized demarc point/network closet. I figured I'd give MoCA a try since my coax splitter/amp was MoCA compatible and it would keep a lot of traffic off my main data network. It just never worked out all that well for me though, so I finally switched my mini over to Ethernet and have never looked back. Everything is rock solid, no hiccups on anything, and it doesn't seem to drag my network down in the slightest.

I know a lot of people praise and swear by MoCA, and I'm glad it works for them, but, if you're having troubles, and Ethernet is an option, you might be better off giving it a try.


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## billdz (May 14, 2015)

Don't have an Ethernet connection anywhere near the bedroom, so that's not really an option.

I noticed the splitter looked a little old and dirty and suspected it, but isn't the splitter ruled out as the source of the problem by the fact that reversing the bedroom and living room connections failed to solve the bedroom situation? We know there is a fast enough connection from the splitter to the living room so, if the splitter was the problem, reversing the connections would have meant a good signal in the bedroom and a V87 error in the living room, but that didn't happen.

Is there any way to measure the connection speed?


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## break19 (May 21, 2015)

billdz said:


> Don't have an Ethernet connection anywhere near the bedroom, so that's not really an option.
> 
> I noticed the splitter looked a little old and dirty and suspected it, but isn't the splitter ruled out as the source of the problem by the fact that reversing the bedroom and living room connections failed to solve the bedroom situation? We know there is a fast enough connection from the splitter to the living room so, if the splitter was the problem, reversing the connections would have meant a good signal in the bedroom and a V87 error in the living room, but that didn't happen.
> 
> Is there any way to measure the connection speed?


I was a CATV tech for 5 years.

That splitter is likely fine, you should also remove the wall plate for the room in question, and inspect the connection behind it.

Those connectors look a little suspect to me actually, and if I were working there, the VERY first thing I'd do is replace them with brand new compression-style fittings.






Also, any unused lines should have little 75ohm terminators installed on them, or disconnected completely, (If you do this, you should change out the splitter, or terminate the unused legs of said splitter) as this can be a way for stray EMF to get into your network.

Also, you should be -sure- there isn't another splitter hidden between the one you see and the room in question.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

billdz said:


> OK thanks, went to the attic, there is one 1 to 3 splitter, input from the cable that comes from outside and output to the office (router), living room (Roamio), and bedroom (mini). The port labeled 3.5db goes to the router, the 7db ports go to the living room and bedroom. There are no open or loose ports, the coax and the splitter appear to be in decent condition. I do not have an external filter, as I was told it was unnecessary because the Ariss TM822G cable modem has a built in MoCA Immunity Filter.
> 
> At the splitter, I reversed the coax connections going to the living room and the bedroom, so if there was anything wrong with the splitter the bedroom should have started working and the living room should have started getting the V87. But the situation stayed the same, V87 only in bedroom.
> 
> ...


Hi again,
You do need a filter on the input to the main splitter, whoever told you this was not necessary is badly mistaken. While you don't need the filter for your modem, you will keep the MoCA frequencies and your network private and prevent interference on your neighbors' lines. This will also enhance the MoCA signal on your system which it apparently needs. 
While the 3 way splitter may be Ok, it looks like it has been through the war to me, and I would absolutely replace it with a MoCA rated splitter given that you are having problems. Also as advised, check those outlets and see if there are any hidden 2way splitters feeding adjacent rooms. 
Sources for MoCA rated splitters:
https://teleproducts.verizon.com/fios/index.cfm/eh/ShowCart 
and
http://www.techtoolsupply.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=catv+moca+rated
Cheapest place for POE / Whole Home DVR filters is ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pieces-Mo...596?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2344277b9c


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## billdz (May 14, 2015)

Does the Mini require more speed/bandwidth than the Roamio? Just now I moved the Roamio to the bedroom, and the Roamio works perfectly on the same cable on which the Mini is not working.

The coax to the living room is the white RG-6. The coax to the bedroom is the black TFC T10. I don't suppose the black coax is lossier than the white?

Is there any kind of amplifier I can use to boost the signal to the bedroom?

@fcfc2 - thanks, filter ordered.
@break19 - thanks for the video, I will change the connectors if I can borrow those tools, which are quite pricey.


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## break19 (May 21, 2015)

The Roamio isn't getting its information on moca, but is just getting standard radio transmission. Think of moca like putting an envelope inside another envelope, and then mailing it, vs just mailing the original... There is, indeed, slightly higher overhead when using moca, as opposed to just receiving standard tv/cable signals. Though normally, all things considered, it's not enough to cause an issue,however if your coax is iffy, the extra overhead could very well cause the situations you are describing, but without a proper test set, you'd be hard pressed to find where. You might be able to replace the existing branch of coax by attaching a new one, and pulling it in using the old one, once you've established that nothing else will fix it.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

billdz said:


> Does the Mini require more speed/bandwidth than the Roamio? Just now I moved the Roamio to the bedroom, and the Roamio works perfectly on the same cable on which the Mini is not working.
> 
> The coax to the living room is the white RG-6. The coax to the bedroom is the black TFC T10. I don't suppose the black coax is lossier than the white?
> 
> ...


Hi again,
Just in case you missed it, that filter link was for 5 units, a lifetime supply...also there are MoCA compatible amps, but I would try just adding the filter and switching the main splitter before investing in one of those as they are a bit pricey
http://www.pctstore.com/RF_amplifier_5_port_amplifier_PCT_VCF_14AN_p/pctvcf14an.htm
Replacing the connectors on the coax might be a good idea but because you will need the proper connectors, a compression tool, and a coax stripper, I would try the easiest / cheapest fixes first. By the way, taking a pencil with an eraser and spinning it down over the center conductor of a coax cable until it becomes bright and shiney can sometimes bring new life into a corroded cable.


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## billdz (May 14, 2015)

On further reflection, I was totally wrong in thinking that reversing the bedroom (Mini) and living room (Roamio) coax connections on the splitter would isolate the problem. The Mini requires a wired connection to the Roamio, so the entire coax run between the 2 devices is at issue, and reversing the splitter connections did not change anything. 

Only we know is that the Mini works if connected to the Roamio with a 3' jumper. The coax run from the Roamio to the splitter is 65', and the coax from the Mini to the splitter is also 65', for a total of 130'. Is that typical or longer than average?

Anyhow, looks like there is nothing more to try until the new filter and splitter arrive.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

billdz said:


> On further reflection, I was totally wrong in thinking that reversing the bedroom (Mini) and living room (Roamio) coax connections on the splitter would isolate the problem. The Mini requires a wired connection to the Roamio, so the entire coax run between the 2 devices is at issue, and reversing the splitter connections did not change anything.
> 
> Only we know is that the Mini works if connected to the Roamio with a 3' jumper. The coax run from the Roamio to the splitter is 65', and the coax from the Mini to the splitter is also 65', for a total of 130'. Is that typical or longer than average?
> 
> Anyhow, looks like there is nothing more to try until the new filter and splitter arrive.


The distance involved is not an issue and is well within the specs for MoCA approximately 300 ft outer limit. If you are dying to get something working, Home Depot carries splitters atleast 4 way and 2 way, I would get the one rated for 2GHz and those 75 ohm terminators are about $4 for 10. Pencils with erasers are not too hard to find. And if the splitter doesn't work, they take returns.


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## billdz (May 14, 2015)

Thanks, does it matter if the splitter is "balanced" (-5.5db on all ports) or "unbalanced" (-3.5db on one and -7db on the others)?


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

billdz said:


> Thanks, does it matter if the splitter is "balanced" (-5.5db on all ports) or "unbalanced" (-3.5db on one and -7db on the others)?


I don't think it matters that much but if you get the unbalanced one use the 3.5db port for the mini where you are having trouble with the signal.


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## billdz (May 14, 2015)

It's working! Glad I asked that last question. I had assumed the router had to be where it was, on the -3.5db port. Switched the -3.5db port to the Mini and bingo, problem solved (knock on wood). No freezing for 30 minutes so far.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

billdz said:


> It's working! Glad I asked that last question. I had assumed the router had to be where it was, on the -3.5db port. Switched the -3.5db port to the Mini and bingo, problem solved (knock on wood). No freezing for 30 minutes so far.


Yeah! But I would still replace that splitter and add the filter. If you have any picture quality issues later consider investing in the recommended amp.


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## bfollowell (Aug 24, 2013)

billdz said:


> It's working! Glad I asked that last question. I had assumed the router had to be where it was, on the -3.5db port. Switched the -3.5db port to the Mini and bingo, problem solved (knock on wood). No freezing for 30 minutes so far.


Excellent! I'm glad you got it working. I agree with the other sentiments though, as far as changing the splitter, adding a filter and terminators to any unused ports, etc. Those are relatively cheap insurance and can only tighten your system.


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## yamsta (Dec 12, 2015)

I'm new here and wanted to post my experience with with similar V87 issues and how I resolved them. Sorry for the long post; I hope its useful for those facing similar issues!

*My setup*: Tivo Roamio Pro, Tivo Mini, Verizion FIOS (50/50) with Actiontec Router all running over Moca. My FIOS router already has Moca built in so I just decided to keep that going. My FIOS coax connection starts from the ONT box into a 1-to-2 1000Mhz splitter from which one line goes around the house and into the Mini. The other line then gets split by another 1-to-2 1000Mhz splitter going to the Roamio Pro and the Router. So 3 total devices (Mini, Roamio Pro, and Verizon Router).

*Initial configuration*: I first got the Roamio and set it up using wifi with my router doing plain DHCP. This worked fine for using just the Roamio with internet capabilities, streaming, etc. Once I got the Mini, I switched the Roamio to use Moca along with the Mini. The setup was easy and at first I thought I was set. After I actually started watching TV on the Mini I noticed that I kept getting V87 errors every few minutes which would be resolved by hitting the LiveTV button--not exactly an ideal solution.

*Initial research*: I did some online research and found out that people weren't successful calling calling Tivo to help them with this issue. Also found out that some resolved this using higher bandwidth splitters and/or using static IP addresses for the boxes. After doing some more research I read that Moca was meant to work on typical 1000Mhz splitters and that I shouldn't have to update my splitters for this issue. Also, some had suggested getting a POE filter--I later realized that this was unnecessary as with Verizon FIOS the ONT actually terminates the Moca network before leaving my house.

*Resolution*: I tried to set static IP addresses to the Tivo boxes but my router complained that the MAC address was already in use by the wifi tables. I could not figure out how to reset/clear the wifi tables so I unplugged the Tivo boxes and did a hard reset of my router to restore factory settings. And then BEFORE connecting the Tivo boxes back up I manually assigned the static IP addresses to the Tivo boxes' MAC addresses. One thing that I noticed before resetting everything was that EACH of the Tivo boxes had TWO MAC addresses with IPs assigned by the router! For example if the main MAC address for the Tivo box ended in a "11" then I saw that the router was giving out IP addresses for MAC addresses ending in both "11" and "12". Same with the Mini box that ended in something like "A1"; it was giving out an IP for "A2" as well. So what I did was take the main MAC address for the two Tivo boxes and assigned static IPs to both the main MAC address and the main MAC address +1.

*Conclusion*: After doing all this I was able to watch tv on both the Roamio Pro and Mini without any interruption for hours on end so far, thank God! So in summary: no need for fancy splitters or POE, just set up MAC addressES with static IPs and you *should* be good to go!

Thanks,
--yamsta


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

yamsta said:


> *Conclusion*: After doing all this I was able to watch tv on both the Roamio Pro and Mini without any interruption for hours on end so far, thank God! So in summary: no need for fancy splitters or POE, just set up MAC addressES with static IPs and you *should* be good to go!


Great post up until the conclusion. Very glad this worked for you, but static IPs are not mandatory and a MoCA filter for the coax PoE *is* generally a requirement for cable TV and antenna installs, just not FiOS.

As another TCFer recently experienced, here, the router firmware reset might have been the sufficient step to get things working.


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## Eskimo2 (Dec 14, 2015)

Since MoCA operates from 500-1500 (and beyond for 2.0), I would think a splitter not rated for the higher frequencies could very well be the problem, no?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Eskimo2 said:


> Since MoCA operates from 500-1500 (and beyond for 2.0), I would think a splitter not rated for the higher frequencies could very well be the problem, no?


It certainly can be problematic, yes, though incompatible splitters are just one of the possible stumbling blocks.

And that the MoCA D-band, used for cable TV and OTA antenna compatible MoCA devices, runs from 1125-1525MHz for MoCA 1.1 (1125-1675MHz for MoCA 2.0) doesn't help, since even the lowest D-band MoCA channel is out-of-spec for a 1GHz splitter.


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## djlott (Jan 4, 2016)

Add me to the list of folks (chumps maybe?) that didn't think (or know) that I needed a MoCA PoE filter. After spending hours of troubleshooting, and then about $7.00 on Amazon for a MoCA filter, my TiVo Mini issues disappeared. I have a 1TB TiVo BOLT and a v2 Mini. The first night I set up the Mini I watched an entire hockey game in high def with no issue. After that, it never worked again. Weather? Network gods? I can't explain it but what I can say is that the MoCA filter worked in seconds. 

For background, I am very proficient at home AV, computer networking, WiFi, etc. In addition, before I had Bolt/Mini, I had DirecTV with whole home DVR MoCA service working perfectly at all the same locations without a MoCA PoE filter. But when I moved to TiVo Bolt/Mini, nothing worked. Static IP addresses, removing splitters, simplifying the config, MoCA channels, etc. $7.00 MoCA filter worked immediately. What can I say? Get one.

Issues I had: v87 errors on Mini - would connect for maybe 5 seconds and then disconnect with V87 error. Could establish a network connection and view my recorded shows but could not stream.


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

yamsta said:


> I'm new here and wanted to post my experience with with similar V87 issues and how I resolved them. Sorry for the long post; I hope its useful for those facing similar issues!
> 
> *My setup*: Tivo Roamio Pro, Tivo Mini, Verizion FIOS (50/50) with Actiontec Router all running over Moca. My FIOS router already has Moca built in so I just decided to keep that going. My FIOS coax connection starts from the ONT box into a 1-to-2 1000Mhz splitter from which one line goes around the house and into the Mini. The other line then gets split by another 1-to-2 1000Mhz splitter going to the Roamio Pro and the Router. So 3 total devices (Mini, Roamio Pro, and Verizon Router).
> 
> ...


Hi yamsta,
Unfortunately, there are several significant errors in both your "research", "methology", and most certainly in your "conclusions". The phrase, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" comes to mind. There is a world of difference between the "it works" standard and "best practices." 
Although for example, the original development of MoCA did test and was designed with the idea that it would "work" with currently existing cabling and splitters in most homes, what you missed were the standard remedial actions recommended to use when it did not work at all or not very well. The remedial actions recommended were to "upgrade" the splitters, coax connectors, even redo substandard coax. The development and use of MoCA filters went hand and hand with MoCA development because the engineers knew that the MoCA signals could travel significant distances, even far beyond the "rated" 300 ft and that this presented both a security issue as well as a potential "interference" risk to neighboring customers. The MoCA POE (Point of Entry) or Whole Home DVR filters (functionally the same) addressed both the security and "interference" concerns and provided an "incidental" benefit. This was that the filter acts not only to block the MoCA frequencies, but actually "reflect back" these signals and thereby strengthen the MoCA signals on the local network. An analogy is the "reflection" you can see in a length of cloths line firmly attached to a wall and then rapidly moved up and down from the far end. You can see the wave travel down, hit the wall, and then "reflect" back towards you. 
Also, regarding splitters, I have personally tested the MoCA performance with several different pairs of different brands of splitters including some "MoCA" rated ones against the standard 1GHz ones and one Satellite brand and although they all "worked", I got the best throughput via the MoCA rated ones and therefore to remedy problem or subpar performance the use of MoCA rated splitters, MoCA filters, good quality coax connectors, and placing 75 Ohm F-type terminators on any open coax ports, are all part of a "best practices" strategy.


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