# TiVo vs ReplayTV?



## WaterBeast (Nov 11, 2009)

Hello All, I am looking for help from people with direct experience with Tivo and ReplayTV units. I have owned 2 ReplayTV 5040s for the last 7-8 years or so. Recently, we took a lightning strike that blew every network card and switch in my house (among a few other things!) including the NICs on the RTVs. The replays are pretty much useless now (no channel guide) and I have 2 options. Get them replaced (and buy the lifetime activation again) or change to TiVo. There are several things that I really liked on my RTVs and have heard these are now available on the newer TiVos. Here are the things I specifically like
30 second skip button - Skip forward 30 sec or backwards 10 seconds immediately.
Automatic skipping of commercials (with no intervention from the user).
Sharing of recorded material from unit to unit over the internet (I like to get NE Patriot games from Bostonians, usually thru poopli.com, and watch them later here in Houston, sans commercials).
Again, looking for people with EXPERIENCE with both units that can make me feel like I wont miss my RTVs when their gone! Feel free to also extoll any additional benefits of the Tivo. I think I'm ready to make the switch, but I will miss my old buddies!


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## dylanemcgregor (Jan 31, 2003)

Wow, haven't seen one of these threads in a long time. 

I haven't used ReplayTV, but I can answer your basic questions. I'll leave it to others to go into the details of the differences between the two.



WaterBeast said:


> 30 second skip button - Skip forward 30 sec or backwards 10 seconds immediately.


30 second skip can be enabled via a remote code that turns the skip to end button into a 30 second skip button, personally I use the skip to end a lot, so I don't have this enabled, but I know it is one of the favorite features of many users. There is a button that skips back a few seconds, not sure exactly how many, and it is one of my all time favorite features.



> Automatic skipping of commercials (with no intervention from the user).


No. Not going to happen.



> Sharing of recorded material from unit to unit over the internet (I like to get NE Patriot games from Bostonians, usually thru poopli.com, and watch them later here in Houston, sans commercials).


No. At least not like ReplayTV. There are numerous ways to get content off of a TiVo onto a PC or to another TiVo in your house, and I think there are ways you can transfer shows between units on different networks if they are all on your account, but not between TiVos on different accounts.

TiVo does do many wonderful things. I don't even record anything directly anymore, but I still use TiVo daily to download shows from Amazon and other websites, as well as transfer video from the PC. Pretty much any format you come across online can easily be transferred and viewed on the TiVo.

One thing you might want to consider before getting a TiVo is that they are ad supported, meaning that they put text ads in the UI. Many of us find these ads fairly unobtrusive and they are easy to skip over, but some people really hate them, and since it sounds like you have a fair dislike of commercials I thought I'd mention it.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Here is what I miss about my old RTV 5000 series units that Tivo just can't seem to implement:

1.) the ability to schedule shows to record on the upstairs unit from the downstairs unit.

2.) Being able to transfer a show to a bud over the net.

3.) Commercial advance. It worked well.

4.) I still prefer the RTV interface... Tivo is a little too Sesame Street like for me and some stuff I access regularly is nested way too deep; and some important things to me are missing (like being able to see what shows are scheduled to record in the guide).

Now to be fair, Tivo offers a lot in return for these omissions, but most of it is lost on me. The things I do use and like are:

1.) Tivo is smarter about not recording dupes; keeping a 28 day record of what has been recorded (even if watched and deleted).

2.) Wish Lists that allow me to record an upcoming show that is not in the guide data yet. If it was more than two weeks out on the RTV, I'd have to write myself a note to remember to record it.

3.) The ability to control my Tivos from my iPhone. I have an A/V feed to the garage and it is great to be able to pause, rewind, and skip from the iPhone over wi-fi while I am working out there. Of course an IR repeater would have served for the RTV, but the iPhone app is very nice.

4.) HD! this was the deal-breaker for me with RTV. To be honest, if RTV had produced an HD unit I probably would have stuck with them and had been just as happy, if not more so, than with Tivo.

Essentially, RTV was put out of business by Hollywood over features like Commercial Advance and Internet Show Sharing, so while I do miss those they are not on my list of things Tivo needs to do. But the dated steppy interface and lack of being able to schedule shows on remote units (among other things) are major annoyances for me.

Hope this helps,

-ss


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

OP, there's been a few sellers of used Replay 5xxx series boxes w/lifetime for less than $200 each over at AVS forum, might want to check that out first. If I had stuck with SD cable, I wouldn't have retired all but one of mine. But with HD all over the house, they're pretty much dinosaurs now.

If you want to replace them with HD boxes, you might want to check out the Moxi HD DVR - at $500 with lifetime sub, it's a better deal than Tivo right now. But you won't get auto commskip or internet sharing with HD boxes, at least not easily.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> ...If you want to replace them with HD boxes, you might want to check out the Moxi HD DVR - at $500 with lifetime sub, it's a better deal than Tivo right now. But you won't get auto commskip or internet sharing with HD boxes, at least not easily.


"Better deal" is a relative matter. If the OP is using an antenna only to get programming, then getting the Moxi would be throwing money away.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Well, duh.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Well, duh.


Now THAT made me LOL!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> 2.) Being able to transfer a show to a bud over the net.
> 
> 3.) Commercial advance. It worked well.


2 and 3 TiVo could implement well - but they decided to not be legally challenged out of business.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> 2 and 3 TiVo could implement well - but they decided to not be legally challenged out of business.


Didn't I mention that?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Yes, but you made it sound like the other choices, which are purely technical (if not part of Replay's patents).

Online program sharing and automatic commercial skip cannot be done for reasons that Replay got sued for.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Hmmm... I thought the last paragraph was pretty clear.



> Essentially, RTV was put out of business by Hollywood over features like Commercial Advance and Internet Show Sharing, so while I do miss those they are not on my list of things Tivo needs to do. But the dated steppy interface and lack of being able to schedule shows on remote units (among other things) are major annoyances for me.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> 2 and 3 TiVo could implement well - but they decided to not be legally challenged out of business.


Even if Tivo had implemented these feautres, they would have killed them in later software updates after the same legal issues came up. That's where RTV users had an advantage. RTV didn't kill such features over legal issues, they just made new models with software that didn't have the features while existing boxes could still do what they'd always done and most of the software could be copied from an old model to a new model to get the features.

For the record, I would not buy replacement RTV boxes and pay for lifetime subscriptions simply because any replacements have to be six or more years old already and that much closer to death. The odds of any surviving to a break even point are on the unfavorable side.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> Didn't I mention that?


no - you said "TiVo just can not seem to implement"
which is very different from backing off plans to implement after they watched replay take a mortal fiscal wound over implementing the same features


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

scandia101 said:


> That's where RTV users had an advantage. RTV didn't kill such features over legal issues, they just made new models with software that didn't have the features while existing boxes could still do what they'd always done and most of the software could be copied from an old model to a new model to get the features.


that did not seem to really be a long term advantage for replay users though. People go on about poor Tivo decisions but think how much better the DVR landscape would be if replay had not made its really boneheaded moves that drove it out of business and thus removed the only real competition in the stand alone market at that time.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> no - you said "TiVo just can not seem to implement"
> which is very different from backing off plans to implement after they watched replay take a mortal fiscal wound over implementing the same features


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7608039#post7608039


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> that did not seem to really be a long term advantage for replay users though. People go on about poor Tivo decisions but think how much better the DVR landscape would be if replay had not made its really boneheaded moves that drove it out of business and thus removed the only real competition in the stand alone market at that time.


I guess you could label RTV's position as boneheaded in hindsight. But consider if Sony and RCA had acted in a TiVo-like manner back in the days when the VCR was being introduced, we'd have had tape recorders that couldn't fast-forward.

I certainly don't consider it boneheaded to do what you can to build a more compelling product without letting Hollywood's lawyers dictate through intimidation what you can and can not do. Remember Jack Valenti's famous conclusions about the VCR being the end of the motion picture industry. This kind of fear and ignorance is not what I want to see guiding the development of consumer electronics. I have much more respect for RTV than I do TiVo.

So yes... RTV is dead (well almost), but has TiVo really been doing that much better? And why? I see it as too little innovation and too much Hollywood glad-handing. If they would get off their duffs and build a more compelling product they would be more profitable. And don't think it can't be done in today's environment because of Hollywood's lawyers. Apple has done it with compelling devices and well engineered content delivery that works. TiVo still has decade old technology and software riddled with bugs.

We've had this discussion before, and I know that in your mind's eye TiVo is still innovative. But compared to other consumer electronics markets, what they have added is little more than window dressing over decade old technology. And sloppy window dressing to boot. TiVo Search has been in Beta for years and is still riddled with bugs, and parts of it have still not been implemented. They have farmed out TTGO for Mac to Roxio. Their latest efforts in TiVo Desktop (both Mac and PC) are poster children for poor engineering and zero quality control. And their inexplicable and proprietary hardware decisions have caused countless heartaches for consumers that have bought into TiVo as being a more useable product, especially in the areas of drive expansion and wireless networking (read the threads here).

This isn't rocket science; it is ten year old technology that still does not work right for way too many users (again read the threads here). The file system is crap; and forcing users to loose recordings on all volumes when one volume fails is shameful, especially when the only external drive they support is crap as well. Let's face it, their "system" is old, outdated, insufficient for the task at hand, and should have been re-written from the ground up years ago. It has so much spit and chewing gum holding it together it is no wonder they can't implement anything new without breaking a half dozen other things.

But admittedly, we can order pizzas and view more ads.

I'm sure I'll take a lot of heat for my observations here, but the fact that TiVo just barely works in this day and age is not something I can get on my soap box about. Yes, I do still recommend TiVo to friends and family, but that is not saying much given the current state of cable/sat company DVR's. Remaining complacent about the current state of things just perpetuates it. TiVo is loosing subscribers, and what they have done so far to address that situation is pathetic.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> that did not seem to really be a long term advantage for replay users though. People go on about poor Tivo decisions but think how much better the DVR landscape would be if replay had not made its really boneheaded moves that drove it out of business and thus removed the only real competition in the stand alone market at that time.


I didn't claim it was long term, just an advantage. However, many RTV subscribers are still making use of those features that were eliminated in later models and are unwilling to just give them up years after RTV gave up on stand alone hardware. The OP is a good example of not wanting to give it up. He's willing to buy old ancient hardware and gamble on lifetime subscriptions.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> Here is what I miss about my old RTV 5000 series units that Tivo just can't seem to implement:
> 
> 1.) the ability to schedule shows to record on the upstairs unit from the downstairs unit.


This would surely be nice. Note one can schedule recording over the internet, but it must be done from a PC, not from a TiVo. There are other options, as well, but not yet on an unmodified TiVo.



solutionsetc said:


> 2.) Being able to transfer a show to a bud over the net.


Actually, this can be accomplished with a little work from the owner of the TIvo. It requires a PC, but the process can be automated. In fact, there are a number of ways to accomplish it, but the simplest is to run something like Galleon to pull the program off the Tivo and have it dump to a directory which is shared on the internet. With Galleon, the transfer can be initated from the Tivo (or any Tivo in the house), and the rest can be done automatically.

*WARNING!!* This requires penetrating the firewall in the house or on the PC and can expose the systems in the house to various risks if the user does not know what he is doing - or even if he does. Secondly, sharing of copyrighted materials is generally strictly illegal, and there are very specific limits on what can and cannot be shared.



solutionsetc said:


> 3.) Commercial advance. It worked well.


Forget about it. The closest one can come is to transfer the material to a PC which then automtically deletes the commercials and then serves up the program back to the Tivo from the PC. Again, this can all be automated fairly easily using third party software, especially for Season Pass programs. Caveat: automated commercial deletion utilities like those in Video Redo and HDTVtoMPEG often work fairly well, but by no means always and by no means perfectly.

I eliminate the issue an easier way: I don't watch or record programs with commercials, if I can avoid it. It's a much better solution all the way around.



solutionsetc said:


> 4.) I still prefer the RTV interface... Tivo is a little too Sesame Street like for me and some stuff I access regularly is nested way too deep; and some important things to me are missing (like being able to see what shows are scheduled to record in the guide).


Again, I avoid this problem easily. I don't use the UI. I especially recommend not using the guide. It's a waste of time. Missing something completely unnecesary seems odd, to me...



solutionsetc said:


> Now to be fair, Tivo offers a lot in return for these omissions, but most of it is lost on me. The things I do use and like are:


You left out some important ones, if you ask me:

1. Third party applications. There are a boatload of them, and many are very powerful. Galleon and pyTivo are the two top ones in my mind. Galleon offers a ton of great features, including a really great local weather app, a terrific local traffic app, a wonderful music app, and the best featured TiVo-To-Go (xfer from Tivo -> PC) app around. PyTivo is fabulous, and the new DVD player plug-in is absolutely marvelous, albeit still very early in development.

2. Suggestions. This is one of the most powerful non-core features of the TiVo, if you ask me, and one which really puts Tivo over the top when it comes to providing ad-hoc entertainment.

3. Search engines. TiVo has 9 of them. NINE. Several are automated. Even the ones tht are not are much more powerful and flexible than they first appear. For example, one may search by title. I use this engine all the time, but I almost never use it to search for a particular title. Instead, I pull up Title => HD => Movies => (No sub category) => 0. This brings up an alphabetical list of every HD movie being broadcast in the next two weeks, wiith no duplications (at the top level) on a given channel. Two button presses will then record the earliest broadcast of a highlighted offering on the listied channel. A couple of different button presses brings up a listing of all upcoming showings on all channels.



solutionsetc said:


> 2.) Wish Lists that allow me to record an upcoming show that is not in the guide data yet. If it was more than two weeks out on the RTV, I'd have to write myself a note to remember to record it.


I'd like to expand that a bit. The wishlist search is really terrific. One sets up a search criteria and then has the option to either have TiVo record any matching shows automatically, or else one may elect to pull up the wishlist engine every so often and see what matches. The match criteria are extremely powerful, as well. One can match by title, actor, director, keyword (anywhere in the title, descrption, or other metadata), genre, category, or limit to HD only. One can also employ exclusion fillters. Thus, one may specify all films directed by John Ford with the word "Texas" somewhere in the metadata, and starring John Wayne, but excluding those with Maureen O'Hara. (Although why anyone would exclude a babe like Maureen is beyond me!). I have a lot of different styles defined, but as an example, whenever a move hits the theaters I would like to see, I crreate a wishlist for it. I created wishlists for Journey to the Center of the Earth, The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emporer, and Ironman when they first came out, and then forgot about them. The first one recorded a few months ago, and the second last month. The third is still waiting patiently. I've had a wishlist defined for Scavenger Hunt since 2002.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> that did not seem to really be a long term advantage for replay users though. People go on about poor Tivo decisions but think how much better the DVR landscape would be if replay had not made its really boneheaded moves that drove it out of business and thus removed the only real competition in the stand alone market at that time.


I think "boneheaded" is far too strong a word. If anything the term more applies to our legal system than to Replay. Hindsight is 20-20, but in the day I am sure the folks at Replay realized they were undertaking a daring and potentially risky approach. Had the rulings gone otherwise, they would be heroes, as it were. As it is, the way it played out simply supports the old cliche: "Those with the gold make the rules".


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> You left out some important ones, if you ask me: ....


Thanks for explaining. It's quite unlike how I use my TiVo (e.g. I have disabled suggestions), and you've given me a better perspective on the value of the product to other people.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Thanks for explaining. It's quite unlike how I use my TiVo (e.g. I have disabled suggestions), and you've given me a better perspective on the value of the product to other people.


There really is no downside to having suggestions enabled. It only produces a single extra folder in the Now Playing List, and in return it can offer up a truly enjoyable selection of programs one might never have known were avaialble. In turn, the user is not required to make any use of the suggestions if the fancy does not stike them. In addition to its ability to seek out programs at no cost to the subscriber, it also offers another means of managing one's recordings. Recordings from the schedule, a Season Pass, or a Wishlist are taken to be high priority. Unless the user intervenes, a new recording of this type may overwrite the oldest recording of this type when required. A suggestion, however, will never overwrite a scheduled recording, and any scheduled recording can overwrite any suggestion if necessary. This means that what would otherwise be wasted space on the drive can be used to hold potentially interesting content quite aside from that the user has specifically requested. What's more, if the user is anything like me, there are quite a large number of programs available which one might want to watch from time to time, but are not of high importance. Suggestions will record such programs and have them avaialble whenever the drive is not overflowing with items the user has specifically requested, without the user ever having to worry about free space or fretting that an unimportant (albeit perhaps interesting) program might overwrite a more important one.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I'm curious about that ReplayTV feature that let users share shows. When this was introduced, broadband was in an even sorrier state than it is today. How useful and how commonly used was this feature? It seemed great in theory, but I just can't imagine that it was used that often due to the infrastructure limitations of the time.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

MickeS said:


> I'm curious about that ReplayTV feature that let users share shows. When this was introduced, broadband was in an even sorrier state than it is today. How useful and how commonly used was this feature? It seemed great in theory, but I just can't imagine that it was used that often due to the infrastructure limitations of the time.


It worked great. Remember all shows were SD then. The transfers were buffered using RTV servers. Once you enter your bud's set number, it was available in the send show area, and off it went.

It took a while... and received shows could not be sent again to others, but it worked reliably and was essentially on its way after a couple of button clicks. There was even a site (can't remember the name of it) where users could post what they had and request shows they might have missed from others.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

solutionsetc said:


> We've had this discussion before, and I know that in your mind's eye TiVo is still innovative. But compared to other consumer electronics markets, what they have added is little more than window dressing over decade old technology.


I don't disagree with all of your complaints, but I think it's only fair to compare Tivos against *other DVRs* (or at least other "video consumption equipment", e.g. other online movie services for some comparisons).



lrhorer said:


> There really is no downside to having suggestions enabled.


Well, to be Devil's Advocate, I can think of a downside -- it will cause your Recently Deleted items to go away to make room for suggestions.

Some of us record WAY more than enough on our own, without needing the Tivo to find more things. (I personally still have suggestions enabled the vast vast majority of the time, to hopefully give me an even closer to accurate FSI if suggestions can 'fill up' holes after e.g. a long show was deleted, a half hour suggestion could record, giving me a better idea about how much space is really "free".) But I could imagine (and should have done this last night since I came home to 0 suggestions 0 recently deleted -- probably lost shows) putting shows I didn't care about in RD.. If they're still there when I get back, remove them from RD..) Yes, that's micromanaging space.. but some of us do it like that.. (and I even have an expanded drive, and still do it.)


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

scandia101 said:


> ...most of the software could be copied from an old model to a new model to get the features.
> 
> For the record, I would not buy replacement RTV boxes and pay for lifetime subscriptions simply because any replacements have to be six or more years old already and that much closer to death. The odds of any surviving to a break even point are on the unfavorable side.


ReplayTV's with Lifetime Service are relatively cheap and HDDs are cheap! I use a RTV45XX in conjunction with every other TV recorder just for its EPG.

I'm not aware of being able to add CA and internet show sharing to RTV55XXs though. (I do know of a hack to get free (censored ) on a 55XX.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mattack said:


> I don't disagree with all of your complaints, but I think it's only fair to compare Tivos against *other DVRs* (or at least other "video consumption equipment", e.g. other online movie services for some comparisons).


No kidding. What's more, if he's talking about cell phones and MP3 players - then *GAG*. Talk about innovation run amok and producing nothing worthwhile...



mattack said:


> Well, to be Devil's Advocate, I can think of a downside -- it will cause your Recently Deleted items to go away to make room for suggestions.


True, but that's an awfully tiny downside, at worst. Note I said "really no downside", not "absolutely no downside". Frankly, with only very minor exceptions, I don't really consider this a downside. Of course, it sometimes might be nice to be able to recover a program a day or so after it is accidentally deleted, but I can count the number of times I have needed this ability on the fingers of one foot. Filling the space with suggestions is much more likely to be useful.



mattack said:


> Some of us record WAY more than enough on our own, without needing the Tivo to find more things.


I do, too, by a very wide margin, but it isn't about volume at all. It's not about having as much as you want, it's about having what you want, wheneevr the mood strikes. I record many dozens of programs every month, and I don't have the time or even the inclination to watch even a fraction of them. What I want - and have - is a list of shows with a lot of variety in them, yet not a lot of things I don't want at all. The problem with a buffet with a limited selection is not that one cannot get enough to eat, it is that one does not have a wide choice of selections. By the same token, a DVR only containing I Love Lucy episodes doesn't lack for a number of programs available, but it does lack for variety.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

mattack said:


> I don't disagree with all of your complaints, but I think it's only fair to compare Tivos against *other DVRs* (or at least other "video consumption equipment", e.g. other online movie services for some comparisons).


Mattack,

I don't think it is fair to hold TiVo to a lower standard by comparing them to the rest of the DVR industry (cable and sat providers) who give their boxes away for free. We pay a premium for TiVo for a better solution. What TiVo has delivered over the last 5 years for that premium is shameful. They are either uninterested in, or incapable of, delivering quality products and services that justify that premium. They have sat on their laurels for years, and offered us little in innovation. This is why they are loosing subscribers. TiVo is stagnant, and seem more interested in peddling ads and content than truly innovating; and what innovations they have created seem to be done in the sloppiest manner possible, with no regard for the fact that their shoddy implementations amount to a significant bag of hurt for their customers.

The current state of the product is so far from what the original TiVo promise was that I am just dumbfounded.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> No kidding. What's more, if he's talking about cell phones and MP3 players - then *GAG*. Talk about innovation run amok and producing nothing worthwhile...


Nothing worthwhile? I am guessing you are not a musician nor someone that has worked in the record industry. Apple has been instrumental in removing the fangs of that predatory and exploitive monopoly. They have also done a lot to teach/force the record companies to embrace technology rather than fight it with law suits. I would say that is plenty worthwhile.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

fallingwater said:


> I'm not aware of being able to add CA and internet show sharing to RTV55XXs though. (I do know of a hack to get free (censored ) on a 55XX.


It's pretty easy to do by running a program call WiRNS on a PC, which then acts as a proxy for the Replay when it calls home. You can enable CA and IVS that way, along with a lot of other neat stuff, like being able to send/receive shows directly from the PC to your RTVs and to others on the net. WiRNS acts like a Replay on a PC (sans recording), in other words.

I have one 5504 left and it's had both features enabled from day one (almost 6 years ago, wow). But I don't use it much anymore, because once you go HD it's hard to watch SD recordings.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks for that info. 

I have a 5532 with free (censored ), which is stashed away along with an upgraded 320GB 5040. The 5040 suffers from a glitch which, interestingly, it shares with an in-service TiVo S3; both occasionally get audio drop-outs when recording live. If delayed momentarily the ReplayTV's audio becomes normal; if delayed momentarily and then returned live the S3's audio becomes normal.

I use ReplayTV45XX's, with their Bypass feature which eliminates extra delay, with S3 and Moxi for their EPG, which I like far better than either style of TiVo's or Moxi's. I watch hi-def live but go to a DVD recorder and RTV for standard-def recordings or viewing the EPG.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> no - you said "TiVo just can not seem to implement"
> which is very different from backing off plans to implement after they watched replay take a mortal fiscal wound over implementing the same features





solutionsetc said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7608039#post7608039


bolded by me


solutionsetc said:


> Here is what I miss about my old RTV 5000 series units that *Tivo just can't seem to implement*:
> 
> 1.) the ability to schedule shows to record on the upstairs unit from the downstairs unit.
> 
> ...


.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> Mattack,
> 
> I don't think it is fair to hold TiVo to a lower standard by comparing them to the rest of the DVR industry (cable and sat providers) who give their boxes away for free. We pay a premium for TiVo for a better solution. What TiVo has delivered over the last 5 years for that premium is shameful.


in your opinion. 
Since buying my Series 2 they have added
-HMO - which became MRV and TiVoToGo/comeback
-HME which fires 3rd party apps such as pyTiVo and stream baby and galleon(I can now server movies from 1 PC to any TV in my house)
-Rhapsody
-You tube
-Netflix
-Amazon Unbox
- Swivel search which will soon become Tivo search
- expanded wishlist with logical operators so i can get all sciFi but that do not star Arnold and anyone else whose Movies I have seen too many times already
- 5 minute overlap to deal with whacked TV schedules
- podcasts and video casts of all kinds straight to the TiVo
- mpeg 4
- cable cards

that was just off the top of my head. Sure we can talk about ads and implementation and the hassles and the fact they have stuck to the old menu interface - but overall I can use any of the above features when i want with little hassle and my family does use the content ones (save for Amazon) pretty regularly and to our added value.

So if you value something different that is your prerogative but just because you do value something different does not mean no value has been added for others


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> in your opinion.


Yes but lets look at the innovation you cite


> Since buying my Series 2 they have added
> -HMO - which became MRV and TiVoToGo/comeback


Added a year or two after RTV did this. And despite a large number of requests over the years, still no form of cooperative scheduling across multiple units; which RTV had all along.

And after years since its introduction MRV and TTGO is still buggy at best (both PC and Mac). TTGO on Mac has been farmed out to Roxio for the not so insignificant cost of $80, which is still buggy, with significant limitations.

Assessment: Shameful.


> -HME which fires 3rd party apps such as pyTiVo and stream baby and galleon(I can now server movies from 1 PC to any TV in my house)


HME SDK has not been updated or actively supported for years.

Assessment: Stagnant.


> -Rhapsody
> -You tube
> -Netflix
> -Amazon Unbox


I use a DVR, and pay $115/month on cable, so I won't have to rent or download content. I know TiVo gets a piece of all of this (that's why its implementation has taken precedence over improving the functionality that we bought/subscribed to TiVo for in the first place).

Assessment: shameful.


> - Swivel search which will soon become Tivo search


In beta for years and is still buggy; with areas still not implemented.

Assessment: Dumbfounding!


> - expanded wishlist with logical operators so i can get all sciFi but that do not star Arnold and anyone else whose Movies I have seen too many times already


Yes, we have a couple of logical operators for the database implemented with no advancements in what is already a painful to use GUI. Those operators must have been ten more lines of code to what is handed off to the database calls. But writing reasonable GUI additions was obviously more than they can be bothered with.

Assessment: Trivial.


> - 5 minute overlap to deal with whacked TV schedules


Assessment: Trivial.


> - podcasts and video casts of all kinds straight to the TiVo


I use TiVo to record cable. I get all the podcasts I want automatically through iTunes. The TiVo is so limited in this regard it is a non-issue.

Assessment: non-sequitur.


> - mpeg 4


One more codec supported. While it can play it back, it does not implement it for recording to allow for more shows/MB.

Assessment: Trivial.


> - cable card


I paid extra for a TiVo to record cable. Kudos to them for being so innovative to actually implement technology to be able to do so on current cable systems.

Assessment: non-sequitur.

And of course you forgot to mention the new feature of ads in the menu and over the top of every program.

Assessment: (censored)

If you consider all of the above, within the timeframe of 5 years, to be innovation from a consumer electronics company offering a product that charges for what the competition gives away for free, your standards are a lot lower than mine.

But why not look at what technology they have really brought to the table over the last 5 years; HD! Slapping "HD" on the box, and even "THX" obviously doesn't mean the product is ready (which reinforces my feelings that the THX moniker is bought and not earned). While data transfer rates for MRV and TTGO are adequate for SD content in this so-called "HD" appliance, its real world performance with HD content, within the bounds of the feature set that is marketed as setting this appliance apart from the competition, is a joke.

You and I will never agree on this as you seem satisfied with the lack of development of the core functionality of this product over the last decade. I see it as sitting on their laurels and token additions at best.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

solutionsetc said:


> You and I will never agree on this as you seem satisfied with the lack of development of the core functionality of this product over the last decade. I see it as sitting on their laurels and token additions at best.


I'm sure your post will bring out the TiVo apologists, but I think you're exactly right in your assessments.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> Yes&#8230; but lets look at the innovation you cite&#8230;
> 
> Added a year or two after RTV did this. And despite a large number of requests over the years, still no form of cooperative scheduling across multiple units; which RTV had all along.


 the one area I agree is lacking - coop scheduling


> And after years since its introduction MRV and TTGO is still buggy at best (both PC and Mac). TTGO on Mac has been farmed out to Roxio for the not so insignificant cost of $80, which is still buggy, with significant limitations.


 do not use a Mac so can not comment on it - I use MRV and pyTivo and both have been rock solid, fast and extremely useful. I have no concern that it came out after RTV - it came out and added significant value to my TiVo DVRs within your 5 year time frame



> HME SDK has not been updated or actively supported for years.
> 
> Assessment: Stagnant.


 the public API has not been updated - however how do you think they do Netflix streaming, You tube and so forth - with what they started in the public HME. They could make some of those APIs public, but I can speculate on business reasons they do not.



> I use a DVR, and pay $115/month on cable, so I won't have to rent or download content. I know TiVo gets a piece of all of this (that's why its implementation has taken precedence over improving the functionality that we bought/subscribed to TiVo for in the first place).


 I pay 45 for my cable sub and the 20 to Netflix and have more content then I can watch. My TiVo DVRs record everything I want with 99.99% reliability. If you would rather pay a big cable bill and whine then that is your concern. I use the added value in content from other sources TiVo makes possible instead.



> Yes, we have a couple of logical operators for the database&#8230; implemented with no advancements in what is already a painful to use GUI. Those operators must have been ten more lines of code to what is handed off to the database calls. But writing reasonable GUI additions was obviously more than they can be bothered with.


 I find the wishlists easy to setup and expand as needed. They give me exact sports recordings over any channel a team might show up on while missing all the post game yada yada shows. I have movie wishlists in which easy maintenance keeps them from recording movies I have seen. The logical operators makes this trivial to do and has all the power I need. No idea what your problem here is, I have no need for whizbang GUI here - I am too busy watching the shows the wishlist records. They could add a USB keyboard though



> I use TiVo to record cable. I get all the podcasts I want automatically through iTunes. The TiVo is so limited in this regard it is a non-issue.
> 
> I paid extra for a TiVo to record cable. Kudos to them for being so innovative to actually implement technology to be able to do so on current cable systems.


 then why do you bother with TiVo - if all you do with the DVR is record cable and you do not like the way a TiVo is setup to schedule recordings then you are in the wrong forum.



> And of course you forgot to mention the new feature of ads in the menu and over the top of every program.


 I mentioned ads but then you never bother to really read the other posts as you are too busy cooking up your reply to bother with what people actually said. I only merely mentioned them as the ads are innovative for TiVo and not for us. On that I agree.
They are however not "on top of every program" and your inclusion of such hyperbole just shows further that you have no wish to actually debate a topic but just want to rant.
have fun with that.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the one area I agree is lacking - coop scheduling
> do not use a Mac so can not comment on it - I use MRV and pyTivo and both have been rock solid, fast and extremely useful.


The fact that you use a third party utility (pyTivo) only serves to prove my point that the TiVo supplied software designed to support their marketed features is inadequate. Obviously the TiVo software shortcomings are not limited to the Mac platform.



> the public API has not been updated - however how do you think they do Netflix streaming, You tube and so forth - with what they started in the public HME. They could make some of those APIs public, but I can speculate on business reasons they do not.


They already made them public. They no longer support them because the original SDK was crap; and they have no interest in cleaning it up. Sloppy software riddled with bugs, and no engineering resources allocated (for whatever reason) to address the broken promises to hard working developers interested in benefiting TiVo with their hard work, and to users as well. Shameful.



> I pay 45 for my cable sub and the 20 to Netflix and have more content then I can watch. My TiVo DVRs record everything I want with 99.99% reliability. If you would rather pay a big cable bill and whine then that is your concern. I use the added value in content from other sources TiVo makes possible instead.


I did not buy TiVo for content delivery. It's a DVR. There are numerous devices for content delivery that are much cheaper than TiVo, work much better, and don't require a service fee.



> I find the wishlists easy to setup and expand as needed. They give me exact sports recordings over any channel a team might show up on while missing all the post game yada yada shows. I have movie wishlists in which easy maintenance keeps them from recording movies I have seen. The logical operators makes this trivial to do and has all the power I need. No idea what your problem here is, I have no need for whizbang GUI here - I am too busy watching the shows the wishlist records. They could add a USB keyboard though


The fact that you would prefer a keyboard demonstrates you have an issue with the GUI; although it seems you are unwilling to admit it. The stupid multipress grid for TiVo text entry is 80's technology; and predictive text entry from even something as rudimentary as the TiVo remote has been available for two decades. Another GUI enhancement TiVo has chosen to ignore for more than the FIVE YEARS we are talking about!



> then why do you bother with TiVo - if all you do with the DVR is record cable and you do not like the way a TiVo is setup to schedule recordings then you are in the wrong forum.


I am in the right forum. I am just not one of the TiVo FanBoys that seems to be oblivious to modern day interface design standards, and satisfied with the lack of innovation that is TiVo. I would rather use this forum to shine a light on the missing features and stagnancy of the product in the hopes that someone who can make a difference is actually listening. You however seem interested only in extolling the virtues of their innovation, all while using a third party alternative to their supplied software for core features of the platform, and admitting you would like to see an alternate input device (only because the current GUI is an abomination as far as text entry is concerned). Laughable!



> I mentioned ads but...They are however not "on top of every program" and your inclusion of such hyperbole just shows further that you have no wish to actually debate a topic but just want to rant.


They are presented on top of every paused show and recording. No hyperbole exists here for anyone sufficiently aware to notice them.

The real hyperbole here is between your soapbox rantings that everything is as it should be with TiVo, and your next breath that admits the TiVo software is so insufficient, you prefer to replace it with freeware. And that the interface is fine... but you wish for an alternate input device due to its shortcomings. And these are only two of the things you let slip while extolling the virtues of TiVo innovation.

I am guessing if you were less defensive you would be aware of the rest of TiVo's deficiencies.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> The fact that you would prefer a keyboard demonstrates you have an issue with the GUI; although it seems you are unwilling to admit it.


I am not unwilling to admit anything. Heck I have caught you in previous posts in this thread flat out denying exactly what you said in a previous post. 
You keep trying to say TiVo has done no innovation and I keep pointing out that they have innovated in ways you don't care for. There is a difference and you just want to deny it as all you want is a DVR. How about you go buy this better DVR that you think everyone wants... oh wait no one seems to see this business opportunity you think exists

Welcome to my ignore list


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> your inclusion of such hyperbole just shows further that you have no wish to actually debate a topic but just want to rant.
> have fun with that.





ZeoTiVo said:


> How about you go buy this better DVR that you think everyone wants... oh wait no one seems to see this business opportunity you think exists
> 
> Welcome to my ignore list


I think a large number of Tivo users would like to see external drives that don't fail within 18 months, and cause all recordings to be lost when they do. Likewise TTGO software that is more robust and feature laden, and a modern GUI that allows for cooperative scheduling; along with a dozen other things other than pushing ads and content. Read the threads here... they have been asking for them for years. The only one who doesn't seem to "see" this is TiVo and you.


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## dstoffa (Dec 14, 2005)

WaterBeast said:


> I have owned 2 ReplayTV 5040s for the last 7-8 years or so. Recently, we took a lightning strike that blew every network card and switch in my house (among a few other things!) including the NICs on the RTVs. The replays are pretty much useless now (no channel guide) and I have 2 options. Get them replaced (and buy the lifetime activation again) or change to TiVo.


All may not be lost.

If your broken RTV's have socketed EPROMs, then all you need to find are unsubscribed ex-monthly RTVs, and move the EPROM from busted ethernet mobo to unsubscribed mobo, along with the hard drive, and PRESTO!!! back up and running. The subscription is on the EPROM. You MAY have to update your IVS stuff, though, as that is tied to the MAC address on the ethernet card (I think...) I have successfully moved an EPROM when one of my units suffered from a lightning strike.

You should be able to find an unsubscribed 50xx box for under $50. You don't even need the remote or the original's hard disk.

You don't need to open the RTVs to see if the EPROMs are socketed. Look through the vent on the left hand side of the unit. You will see a chip with a heat sink on it. Just to the right of this sink (towards the front of the RTV) you will see either:
1. A black chip (about 1/2" square) in a brown box with no label.
or
2. A white chip soldered to the motherboard with a white label.

If you have #1, you have a socketed EPROM. Your lifetime sub is on that chip, and can be transferred easily. Other methods are possible, but require hot work.

Cheers!
-Doug


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks for that info. Do you know if a similiar option exists for ReplayTV45XX's?


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## dstoffa (Dec 14, 2005)

fallingwater said:


> Thanks for that info. Do you know if a similiar option exists for ReplayTV45XX's?


Option? Oh, you mean a socketed EPROM for a 40xx/45xx RTV?

I am not familiar with the internals of a 40xx/45xx RTV... I only know the internals of a 50xx/55xx.

It's trivial to open the case and take a look-see.

Cheers!
-Doug


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

Fair enough. Thanks.


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## dstoffa (Dec 14, 2005)

fallingwater said:


> Fair enough. Thanks.


If the 40xx/45xx series has socketed EPROMs, then it would be trivial to move the subscription to a different box. Same rules apply. The sub is on the EPROM.

Remember, ALL 40xx RTVs have lifetime. RTV began selling unbundled subs with the 45xx series.

Cheers!
-Doug


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## dhodory (Feb 24, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> Here is what I miss about my old RTV 5000 series units that Tivo just can't seem to implement:
> 
> 1.) the ability to schedule shows to record on the upstairs unit from the downstairs unit.
> 
> ...


As someone who as owned both (3 RTVs and now 2 TivoHDs) I think you've pretty much nailed my gripes as well. I'd add that the Tivo interface feels very . . . . cobbled together . . . like they've kept adding "stuff" to it and really haven't taken a step back to re-think it (I'm relatively new to Tivo, so I have no idea if that's how things have evolved or not).

In terms of the benefits of TivoHD -- I'd tend to agree as well, with the exception of the iPhone app. I'm sure it's a great app, but I don't have an iPhone and I haven't felt the need to use anything other than the remotes supplied.

If I had cable TV, I'd still be using my RTVs, but it's strictly OTA for me, and as a result, migrating to TivoHD was necessary.

To the OP: if you're interested, I have three lifetime subscription RTVs for sale.


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## dstoffa (Dec 14, 2005)

dhodory said:


> If I had cable TV, I'd still be using my RTVs, but it's strictly OTA for me, and as a result, migrating to TivoHD was necessary.


Yeah, the lack of "out of the box" support for OTA TV had me bummed. But I've managed to master WiRNS and uploading custom IR blaster codes to my RTV, so now I have one 50xx box that makes use of a D2A CECB Box. It was a rainy day project, as a few weeks ago, I had to spend time indoors due to rain.

Cheers!
-Doug


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> Added a year or two after RTV did this.


Which means they do have it.



solutionsetc said:


> And after years since its introduction MRV and TTGO is still buggy at best (both PC and Mac).


MRV relates to neither PC or Mac, and neither it nor TTG have any bugs of whcih I am aware.



solutionsetc said:


> TTGO on Mac has been farmed out to Roxio for the not so insignificant cost of $80, which is still buggy, with significant limitations.


TTG is an open protocol (HTTPS). Several 3rd party applications implement it on an external machine.



solutionsetc said:


> Assessment: Shameful.


Nonsense! TiVo Desktop sucks, but who cares?



solutionsetc said:


> You and I will never agree on this as you seem satisfied with the lack of development of the core functionality of this product over the last decade. I see it as sitting on their laurels and token additions at best.


When I look at the requests for features over in TiVo Suggestin Avanue, I am positively *thrilled* TiVo has not "improved" the product per most of the assessments there.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> Which means they do have it.


But only half implemented. Still no cooperative scheduling on remote units, or even the choice to manually schedule a recording on the remote unit if there is a conflict.



> MRV relates to neither PC or Mac


Yes, but it requires a software interface to be of any use.



> TiVo Desktop sucks


Well yes, that is part of what I am getting at.



> but who cares? Several 3rd party applications implement it on an external machine.


I care. I am guessing you will too if and when those apps are deprecated for whatever reason (loss of interest, OS updates, etc.). Plus many of the third party solutions are not for the tech unsavvy.



> and neither it nor TTG have any bugs of whcih I am aware.


There are plenty of bugs. One that comes immediately to mind is implementing a transfer, and then immediately queueing up another; in which the info presented for the second show transfer to be queued is identical to the first. You have to back out and try again.



> TTG is an open protocol (HTTPS).


Yes but the whole HME SDK is deprecated, isn't it? At least it hasn't been actively developed or supported for quite some time.



> When I look at the requests for features over in TiVo Suggestin Avanue, I am positively *thrilled* TiVo has not "improved" the product per most of the assessments there.


I am sure many of them are screw-ball ideas. But much of what has repeatedly been asked for over the years are very valid interface enhancements; predictive text entry, cooperative scheduling, etc.

My rants are born out of frustration over the stagnancy that is TiVo's core feature set and the generally poor state of their software/hardware design and stability. It feels way too much like a platform that is on its last legs. And while I am thankful for third party solutions that actually work, I am less than comfortable with having to rely on solutions from folks that don't get paid for their development. They could go away tomorrow.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> The fact that you use a third party utility (pyTivo) only serves to prove my point that the TiVo supplied software designed to support their marketed features is inadequate. Obviously the TiVo software shortcomings are not limited to the Mac platform.


Oh, now that's just plain stupid. Equipment manufacturers are notorious for producing the worst software on the planet. I have dozens of pieces of computerized hardware, and I don't use the software which came with even one single, solitary piece of equipment. From my digital camera to my scanner to my DVD-ROM drives, hard drives, mice, and keyboards. If RTVs bundled software was anything but pathetic, and even half as good as 3rd party offerings, then it was a major exception. More importantly, since I am not paying TiVo to supply the software, not only do I not care in the least how bad it is, the last thing on Earth I want is for them to spend any money on its development.



solutionsetc said:


> They already made them public. They no longer support them because the original SDK was crap; and they have no interest in cleaning it up. Sloppy software riddled with bugs, and no engineering resources allocated (for whatever reason) to address the broken promises to hard working developers interested in benefiting TiVo with their hard work, and to users as well. Shameful.


I'll have to let the developers comment on this one, since I am not a developer of 3rd party TiVo software. Are you?

More to the point, did RTV support its 3rd party developers any better than TiVo does? (I have indeed heard TiVo's support of the SDK is lacking, but once again, I cannot say from first hand experience.)



solutionsetc said:


> I did not buy TiVo for content delivery. It's a DVR. There are numerous devices for content delivery that are much cheaper than TiVo, work much better, and don't require a service fee.


That's specious. The TiVo's primary intended function is to deliver content - specifically content it has recorded from some RF source. That it also does a fine job of delivering content obtained by its Ethernet port is also an extremely powerful and important feature. Indeed, in my theater, the TiVo delivers very little else.



solutionsetc said:


> The fact that you would prefer a keyboard demonstrates you have an issue with the GUI;


I have an issue with all GUIs. GUIs are without exception stupid, and I avoid them whenever possible.



solutionsetc said:


> The stupid multipress grid for TiVo text entry is 80's technology; and predictive text entry from even something as rudimentary as the TiVo remote has been available for two decades. Another GUI enhancement TiVo has chosen to ignore for more than the FIVE YEARS we are talking about!


All to the good. Almost nothing developed in the electronics industry in the last five years is of any worth. If you happen to be talking about the gawdawful text method used by cell phones, then I not only vote, "No!", I vote, "*No absofreakin'lutely way!!!* It's knuckle-draggging stupid beyond belief. OTOH, since I would almost never use it anyway, I guess it doesn't matter too much, but since every once in a great while I may use text entry, they had damnsure better not resort to such a vomitous utility.



solutionsetc said:


> I am in the right forum. I am just not one of the TiVo FanBoys that seems to be oblivious to modern day interface design standards


I am very well aware of them. I get saddled with them continuously. They are almost unilaterally stupid, made for use by morons with more money than sense.



solutionsetc said:


> and satisfied with the lack of innovation that is TiVo.


No, I am satisfied with the fact they *are* innovative. The UI is largely unimportant, because no one who actually makes full use of their TiVo uses it. I surely don't.



solutionsetc said:


> I would rather use this forum to shine a light on the missing features and stagnancy of the product in the hopes that someone who can make a difference is actually listening.


I sincerely hope they are not, because with the exception of cooperative scheduling, virtually everything you seem to be suggesting is something I would pay good money to have removed from my TiVo.



solutionsetc said:


> You however seem interested only in extolling the virtues of their innovation, all while using a third party alternative to their supplied software for core features of the platform


First of all, it isn't supplied software. It is commercial software offered by the same company. Secondly, one of the very most important features fo the TiVo is the 3rd party software. Any DVR for which such software does not exist is a hunk of junk. The last think I want on any of my machines is closed source software, *especially* if it is produced by some company.



solutionsetc said:


> and admitting you would like to see an alternate input device (only because the current GUI is an abomination as far as text entry is concerned). Laughable!


I don't particularly care about or want an alternate input device. I rarely ever enter text into the TiVo, because it's just a waste of time. I have TiVoWeb running on my TiVos, and using it I could enter text from the keyboard at which I now sit. I don't because it is unnecessary and a waste of time.



solutionsetc said:


> The real hyperbole here is between your soapbox rantings that everything is as it should be with TiVo


No one said, "everything is as it should be". Other than allowing scalable fonts and higher density text, enhancing their conflict handling (a lot), beefing up the received / favorite channel settings menu, and as you mention creating a means of controlling one TiVo from the other, there is no enhancement to the software I have seen suggested in which I am even remotely interested.



solutionsetc said:


> and your next breath that admits the TiVo software is so insufficient, you prefer to replace it with freeware.


There is almost no commerical software out there without a superior freeware open source replacement. OH, BTW, the basic version of TDT is also freeware. It's lousy freeware, but so what? You're making a lot of noise and saying nothing. Third party developers almost always produce superior software. More importantly, it doesn't matter in even the slightest amount who produces the software, as long as superior software exists.



solutionsetc said:


> I am guessing if you were less defensive you would be aware of the rest of TiVo's deficiencies.


I'm guessing you just like to see yourself type, because you surely have had very little of any worth to offer - at least in this thread. You haven't proposed a single feature or made a single suggestion on which TiVo or anyone else could reasonably take action, at least not in this thread. The old addage goes, "if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem." That certainly fits in this case. Inanely pattering on about how "it should be better" is of no benefit to anyone.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> But only half implemented. Still no cooperative scheduling on remote units, or even the choice to manually schedule a recording on the remote unit if there is a conflict.


I'm not particularly interested in cooperative scheduling, since copy protection makes it virtually useless. I am interested in being able to control one Tivo from the other.



solutionsetc said:


> Yes, but it requires a software interface to be of any use.


So does my DVD-ROM. So does my photo scanner. Ad nauseum.



solutionsetc said:


> Well yes, that is part of what I am getting at.


It's a worthless point. It's like saying the software which comes with an MP3 player is poor. Well, *DUH!!!*



solutionsetc said:


> There are plenty of bugs. One that comes immediately to mind is implementing a transfer, and then immediately queueing up another; in which the info presented for the second show transfer to be queued is identical to the first. You have to back out and try again.


For MRV? I've never seen this, but then I don't use it much. If so, then it needs to be fixed. Have you opened a ticket with TiVo?


solutionsetc said:


> Yes but the whole HME SDK is deprecated, isn't it? At least it hasn't been actively developed or supported for quite some time.


It definitely is not deprecated. I don't believe it has seen any development in quite some time, but then it may not need it much. I really can't say.



solutionsetc said:


> My rants are born out of frustration over the stagnancy that is TiVo's core feature set


A superior design can last forever. Genuinely new designs are rarely ever any good, but when on the rare occasion they are, they stand a good chance of lasting. Apparently you think something glitzy is better than something which has stood the test of time. Fortunately the TiVo engineers are not so foolish.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> TTG is an open protocol (HTTPS). Several 3rd party applications implement it on an external machine.


The transfer is open. Decrypting the TTG file is closed as far as TiVo is concerned.
Open TTG decoding was probably a non-starter, so the best (for them and content) was to farm out Mac TTG to any suitable party, and Roxio accepted the deal.



> When I look at the requests for features over in TiVo Suggestin Avanue, I am positively *thrilled* TiVo has not "improved" the product per most of the assessments there.


But at least they try. Replay doesn't do software updates at all in the state they are in.


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