# Being Forced To Switch To HR-20's :(



## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Looks like it's curtains for my four beloved HR-10's.

I'm a Yankee fan (no "boos", please!), and I just found out that YES HD will only be available in MPEG-4. Being in NY, I've either got to switch to Cablevision or HR-20's. Either way I'm gonna lose the Tivo UI, because cable and four Tivo series 3's with lifetime service is $$$ prohibitive. I've been generally happy with D* all these years, so I'll probably make the switch.

D* has offered to swap my four owned HR10's for four HR20's for $120 each, $99 plus $20 "handling" or "activation", I forget which. I might do better eBaying my HR-10's and paying more for the HR-20's, but I think the D* offer is reasonable. Do you agree? Anyone get a considerably better deal for 3 or 4 HR20's?

/steve


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

This must be your "gun-to-my-head" scenario. That blows.

But why not just get one HR20 for MPEG-4 stuff, and keep the rest, including one HR10 as a spare for the other 3?

The only downside of having an HR10 in the same room as a HR20 is that you are continually reminded how much better the HR10 is, which is a level of humiliation that, from the offer, is not something DTV cares to experience.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> This must be your "gun-to-my-head" scenario. That blows.
> 
> But why not just get one HR20 for MPEG-4 stuff, and keep the rest, including one HR10 as a spare for the other 3?
> 
> The only downside of having an HR10 in the same room as a HR20 is that you are continually reminded how much better the HR10 is, which is a level of humiliation that, from the offer, is not something DTV cares to experience.


I thought about mixing and matching, but there are at least 3 locations in my home someone might want to see a game in, and who knows what other future HR20-only HD programming we might want to watch. Figured if I was going to bite the bullet on at least one HR20, I mght as well go whole hog and cause less UI confusion for the family. Sigh. This is killing me. I've been a Tivo customer from my first Series 1 unit, back in '99.

/s


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## jon777 (May 30, 2002)

I'm in a similar boat (although only a HR10 to replace, and it's for the Mets, not the Yankees 

Did you get that deal from retention or the reg cust service? Was hoping to get "upgraded" (or downgraded depending on your perspective) without cost. Hoping that retention will make up any charges in programming credit, but haven't called yet... Of course, in addition to the HR20, need the 5 LNB dish and installation to get the MPEG4 RSN broadcasts...


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Look on ebay for what they are selling for, I believe the HR10's are going for more than $130.

Find out how much it would cost you to get a HR20 WITHOUT swapping one of your boxes, so you can compare


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## _spidey_ (Mar 19, 2007)

jon777 said:


> I'm in a similar boat (although only a HR10 to replace, and it's for the Mets, not the Yankees
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## jon777 (May 30, 2002)

_spidey_ said:


> Has it been announced that Directv will be getting the Mets station, and the HD one at that?
> 
> If so, I might have to switch receivers as well for that channel.
> 
> I am not in NYC, but in upstate NY if that matters for the channel being available to me.


Yes. DirecTV had SNY last year (SD only). For people in the NY sports region, SNY and YES are both available as full time HD stations via the Spot Beam. However, MSG and FSNY are not. You'd have to check whether you're area upstate in eligible for the NY sports stations.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

MikeMar said:


> Look on ebay for what they are selling for, I believe the HR10's are going for more than $130.
> 
> Find out how much it would cost you to get a HR20 WITHOUT swapping one of your boxes, so you can compare


Actually, it looks like HR10s are selling for $250-$300 on eBay. New HR20's are about the same price ($299), with $99 off the first one (standard D* offer), but if I don't do the swap, I can only get up to 2 HR-20's every 6 months from D*. I want 4 at once, for the reasons I mentioned above.

Selling and shipping on eBay will require some time and effort, plus listing, selling and shipping costs, so it's almost a wash, in my mind. I was just curious if anyone was getting multiple free HR20's for HR10 swaps.



jon777 said:


> Did you get that deal from retention or the reg cust service? Was hoping to get "upgraded" (or downgraded depending on your perspective) without cost. Hoping that retention will make up any charges in programming credit, but haven't called yet... Of course, in addition to the HR20, need the 5 LNB dish and installation to get the MPEG4 RSN broadcasts...


I spoke to retention. After a few calls, I got a really nice guy who was very helpful. I bet if I only wanted to swap one HR10, he would have done it at net no cost to me.

When prompted for the reason for your call, tell the D* operator you want to "cancel service". That will get you right through to retention. 

/steve


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

I'll say a prayer for you....


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## _spidey_ (Mar 19, 2007)

jon777 said:


> Yes. DirecTV had SNY last year (SD only). For people in the NY sports region, SNY and YES are both available as full time HD stations via the Spot Beam. However, MSG and FSNY are not. You'd have to check whether you're area upstate in eligible for the NY sports stations.


Thanks for the info. One more question, what is "Spot Beam"?


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

A spot beam is a special transponder on the satellite that "beams" its signal to local areas. Kinda like a flashlight. For more info please do a search.


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## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

Do not forget the 2 year commitment. For 4 HR20s your early termination fee probably starts at $1200 and depreciates $50 a month. This will come into play 12 months from now when you realize that the HDTV offering from cable and FIOS are still better than D* HD-LITE.


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## deezel629 (May 30, 2006)

I'm in the same boat: Yankee fan, D* customer for 10 years, TiVo subscriber for 5 years. I only have one HR10-250, and have 2 regular HD receivers(one gets MPEG4 and one does not, it's an older Samsung). I'm moving at the end of June. I'm still up in the air on what to do. My latest plan is to go to FIOS when I move(they have already offered to pick up half of my cancellation fee), sell the HR10-250 on ebay, put that money down on one Series 3, and just have plain HD receivers on my other 2 HDTVs. My brother has recently taken the plunge on the HR20 and he HATES it. I played around with it for a bit and was very unimpressed. I have a friend who recently got FIOS and the picture is incredible.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

ciucca said:


> Do not forget the 2 year commitment. For 4 HR20s your early termination fee probably starts at $1200 and depreciates $50 a month. This will come into play 12 months from now when you realize that the HDTV offering from cable and FIOS are still better than D* HD-LITE.


Wrong.

Ther early term fee is a max of $300 and is pro-rated. it's per account, not per box genius.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

ciucca said:


> ...This will come into play 12 months from now when you realize that the HDTV offering from cable and FIOS are still better than D* HD-LITE.


How will he realize that if he doesn't have cable or FIOS hooked to his TV?


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## mikeny (Dec 22, 2004)

sluciani said:


> Looks like it's curtains for my four beloved HR-10's.
> 
> I'm a Yankee fan (no "boos", please!), and I just found out that YES HD will only be available in MPEG-4. Being in NY, I've either got to switch to Cablevision or HR-20's. Either way I'm gonna lose the Tivo UI, because cable and four Tivo series 3's with lifetime service is $$$ prohibitive. I've been generally happy with D* all these years, so I'll probably make the switch.
> 
> ...


You probably loved your HR10 and you'll probably wind up loving your HR20. It's really not the "dark side" of the DVR force.  Looking forward to ALL YES games being in HD in '07!!


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

ciucca said:


> Do not forget the 2 year commitment. For 4 HR20s your early termination fee probably starts at $1200 and depreciates $50 a month. This will come into play 12 months from now when you realize that the HDTV offering from cable and FIOS are still better than D* HD-LITE.


FIOS TV won't be available in my town for at least 2 years. They haven't even filed an application yet. I've got FIOS internet, so I checked this option first.

In theory, the D*-compressed HD should be inferior, but in practice I don't see it. I live about 25 miles from the Empire State Building and have an outdoor OTA antenna, so I'm able to compare the virgin east coast network feeds to the D* 80, 82, 86 and 88 rebroadcasts of them, and the pictures are indistinguishable on my calibrated 50" Fujitsu plasma. Perhaps the HR10 is "dumbing down" the OTA, but I doubt it. The picture I get is spectacular, and I'm really fussy about image quality. My friend is a professional installer with a calibrated 50" plasma and Cablevision, and his PQ is no better than mine.

Cablevison advertises on TV that unlike DirecTV, their HD programming is provided free. What they don't tell you is that there's a $10/month upcharge for each HD DVR. That would run me an add'l $480 per year. On top of that, their comparable programming package is still a bit more than I pay D* now, including the $10/month I pay D* for HD.

The D* rep specifically told me the two year committment fee was $300 total, decreasing $12+ each month I don't leave. He might have been wrong on that, however. I'll have to check.

/steve


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## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> How will he realize that if he doesn't have cable or FIOS hooked to his TV?


If forced I'd gone with cable! I actually got an H20 for HD and used the D10-200 and a SA Tivo for shows I'm not watching live. I like having access to Amazon Downloads and TivoCAST while I wait to review my options later this year. Still less than an S3 and far better than a HR-20.

Bonanza

DirecTV will be ok.


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## MurrayW (Aug 28, 2005)

Do you own your 3 HR10's or lease? If you own them, I saw another thread where someone said D* didn't really want them back -- also you might question their right to take them from you in the first place. Maybe if you called them and said that since you owned your HR10's and they would be giving you leased HR20's, that you want to keep your HR10's but replace the service on them with the HR20's. That way you could still sell your HR10's on EBay and make enough money to go see a couple of yankee games in person!

They have 2 more years in Yankee stadium right? I'm a lifetime Yankee fan in Texas and need to make a trip to see a game before they move to the new stadium.

Good luck!
Murray


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

MurrayW said:


> Do you own your 3 HR10's or lease? If you own them, I saw another thread where someone said D* didn't really want them back -- also you might question their right to take them from you in the first place. Maybe if you called them and said that since you owned your HR10's and they would be giving you leased HR20's, that you want to keep your HR10's but replace the service on them with the HR20's. That way you could still sell your HR10's on EBay and make enough money to go see a couple of yankee games in person!
> 
> They have 2 more years in Yankee stadium right? I'm a lifetime Yankee fan in Texas and need to make a trip to see a game before they move to the new stadium.
> 
> ...


The rep definitely said I had to turn them in. I'm guessing they want them back to use as replacements for customers who aren't switching, but I could be wrong. I'll definitely give it another shot and see if I can hang onto them.

The new stadium is scheduled to open in 2009. The old stadium is still gorgeous, but George needs his luxury boxes! 

/steve


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

sluciani said:


> The rep definitely said I had to turn them in. I'm guessing they want them back to use as replacements for customers who aren't switching, but I could be wrong. I'll definitely give it another shot and see if I can hang onto them.
> 
> The new stadium is scheduled to open in 2009. The old stadium is still gorgeous, but George needs his luxury boxes!
> 
> /steve


Steve, when you call them back, be polite but inform them that unless they are prepared to give you the 4 HR20's you dont see a reason to give them the HR10's that you own and paid for (assuming that you do own them, I dont recall seeing whether or not you do) I have 2 HR10's and when i first called for replacements they offered 1 free HR20 and the second for 99 dollars but they wanted my HR10's. I declined and told them since I own the HR10's there was no way I was turning them in, I got transferred to retention, I told them the same thing, adding that I was prepared to leave over this (I was), and the agent immediately put in the notes that I could keep the HR10's. IMHO they dont want them back.

Jim


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Recently, when one of my 3 HR10's had hd failure I called D* and asked about a replacement. They offered one up for the cost of S&H nary batting an eye ...and told me to keep my original unit.

Cannot understand why: 
A. they are charging you so much ($99 is a good deal, but IMO the 1st unit should be free)
B. they are asking for the HR10's to be shipped back to them 

Perhaps the fact that it's *4* units has screwed up how they can deal, but no way I'd give them the HR10's.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

Good advice from everyone. I definitely own three of the units. The rep I spoke to said the fourth unit, which I bought from Circuit City last fall, was leased because their policy changed in March 2006 and any units activated after then could only be activated as leased. Is that true?

Thanks again for everyone's help on this.

/steve


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

sluciani said:


> Good advice from everyone. I definitely own three of the units. The rep I spoke to said the fourth unit, which I bought from Circuit City last fall, was leased because their policy changed in March 2006 and any units activated after then could only be activated as leased. Is that true?
> 
> Thanks again for everyone's help on this.
> 
> /steve


Yes, units after March 2006 are "leased".


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> Cannot understand why:
> A. they are charging you so much ($99 is a good deal, but IMO the 1st unit should be free)
> B. they are asking for the HR10's to be shipped back to them


What he said.

Seriously, even if the HR10's had no value (and they have lots!), the PITA factor would be enough to bug me. They don't want them, they should stop acting like they do and make it easier on everyone.


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## utvnut (Feb 4, 2004)

My HR20 is only six days old. I have 3 HR10-250,s. I paid ZERO for the hr20, and just moved an HDTivo to a new HD set. Only change for me was the $5 more per month for the extra receiver.

If I want to continue changing boxes I plan on getting the same no cost upgrade as a good "A" list early-adopter. By the way, I am just getting used to the new box and my wife hates it. She keeps asking "why did you do it?"

It is relaxing to go to the bedroom and not fumble with the peanut and Tivo after working out the HR20.


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

I suspect that they want the HR10's out of the market. They have an interest in eliminating an HR10 from the population, so they discount the HR20. If you keep it, and then sell it, give it away, etc, it just moves to someone else's account who may end up doing the same thing in a year. However, as other's have pointed out, if you are GIVING them an HR10 in exchange for an HR20, the HR20 should be free- especially since you have to give it back to them when you cancel.



Billy66 said:


> What he said.
> 
> Seriously, even if the HR10's had no value (and they have lots!), the PITA factor would be enough to bug me. They don't want them, they should stop acting like they do and make it easier on everyone.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I just got two HR20's for $100 each, didn't have to send them my 2 HR10's they are still live actualy.

Although I do own my HR10's, I'm not sure if you mentioned owning or leasing yours.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

beanpoppa said:


> I suspect that they want the HR10's out of the market. They have an interest in eliminating an HR10 from the population, so they discount the HR20. If you keep it, and then sell it, give it away, etc, it just moves to someone else's account who may end up doing the same thing in a year. However, as other's have pointed out, if you are GIVING them an HR10 in exchange for an HR20, the HR20 should be free- especially since you have to give it back to them when you cancel.


You're missing the point. With a little nudge, they don't want the HR10 back. They're just going through the motions. The HR20 discount (or free for plenty) is available regardless.

Mine was free with no return of the HR10.

What is their interest in getting these off the market more so than any other piece of legacy equipment?


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## MisterEd (Jun 6, 2001)

1 yr commitments are not added per receiver. They just extend them from the day the new hardware is purchased out 2 yrs. He would still have only 2 yrs, with 1 $300 fee from the last date of purchase.


ciucca said:


> Do not forget the 2 year commitment. For 4 HR20s your early termination fee probably starts at $1200 and depreciates $50 a month. This will come into play 12 months from now when you realize that the HDTV offering from cable and FIOS are still better than D* HD-LITE.


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## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

Steve,

Doing the math is is probably less per month staying with Directv, then switching to cable or FIOS for the 3 HD boxes you have.

The problem I have, is their FU business practice of forcing us to accept a 2 year commitment, that only commits us not them. If I switch to cable or FIOS and commit to a year or 2 years on one of their promotions the price stays the same. I specifically asked D* if they would agree to keep the price the same for 2 years and they said no. Maybe its just me, but I don't like entering into a contract that gives me no added value. Maybe if I owned the box instead of leasing I could sell the box on ebay to recover my cost.


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## RunnerFL (May 10, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> The only downside of having an HR10 in the same room as a HR20 is that you are continually reminded how much better the HR10 is, which is a level of humiliation that, from the offer, is not something DTV cares to experience.


This worked out totally opposite for me... I had an HR10 and an HR20 in the same room and it constantly reminded me how crappy and childish the TiVo interface and speed were. I now have 2 HR20's in that room.


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## RunnerFL (May 10, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> Find out how much it would cost you to get a HR20 WITHOUT swapping one of your boxes, so you can compare


If you own the HR10 you don't have to swap, you keep it.

I've also heard of some situations where they are telling customers to keep their leased HR10's because they do not want them back either.

I'll find out soon enough when I have them replace my leased HR10.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

I just spoke to a very nice lady in customer retention who double-checked with her supervisor, and she agreed I could keep the HR-10s. She's added a note to that effect to my account.

I just hope I don't have a problem with the installers when they show up, who may still have "swap" indicated on their work order! Assuming all goes well, I'll probably put them on eBay next week.

Regards to all,

/steve


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

sluciani said:


> I just spoke to a very nice lady in customer retention who double-checked with her supervisor, and she agreed I could keep the HR-10s. She's added a note to that effect to my account.
> 
> I just hope I don't have a problem with the installers when they show up, who may still have "swap" indicated on their work order! Assuming all goes well, I'll probably put them on eBay next week.
> 
> ...


When I first got my HR20 back in October the work order said to swap it with my HR10 but the installer never asked about the HR10 so hopefully the same will happen for you.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

What they did with me is send a 'recovery package' for the swapped receiver (which was never sent back anyway, as they too told me to keep it) rather than having the tech try and take it.

That they've noted it on your account is a good thing. :up:



RunnerFL said:


> it constantly reminded me how crappy and childish the TiVo interface and speed were.


"crappy and childish" interface and speed? It certainly is much more intuitive than the HR20, and with 6.3c it's just as fast ...faster in some areas.

But hey, you're entitled to your opinion.


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## RunnerFL (May 10, 2005)

Sir_winealot said:


> "crappy and childish" interface and speed? It certainly is much more intuitive than the HR20


Not even close to being as intuitive as the HR20. TiVo looks like something you'd see and color in on a kids menu at IHop compared to the HR20.



Sir_winealot said:


> and with 6.3c it's just as fast ...faster in some areas.


Just as fast? Not even close... Even farther from being "just as fast" now that we can turn off animations. Paging up and down is now instantaneous. Setting up a Series Link [Season Pass] is as simple as pressing record twice with the program highlighted in the guide instead of a 6 or 8 step process like it is on the TiVo. More examples exist proving that the HR20 is faster than the HR10, it's not just my opinion.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

RunnerFL said:


> Not even close to being as intuitive as the HR20. TiVo looks like something you'd see and color in on a kids menu at IHop compared to the HR20.
> 
> Just as fast? Not even close... Even farther from being "just as fast" now that we can turn off animations. Paging up and down is now instantaneous. Setting up a Series Link [Season Pass] is as simple as pressing record twice with the program highlighted in the guide instead of a 6 or 8 step process like it is on the TiVo. More examples exist proving that the HR20 is faster than the HR10, it's not just my opinion.


Well, as I said you are entitled to _your_ opinion. The HR20 is clunky, unintuitive and undependable in _my _ opinion and experience. My HR10 with 6.3b is as fast in many ways ...in _my_ opinion.

It's obvious you're very passionate ...and somewhat emotionally attached to the HR20 (not that there's anything wrong with that), while having an intense dislike for TiVo and its IHOP kids menu, so ...good luck with that.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

I've been reading a lot about the HR-20 over at DBStalk.com, and while some things are faster, some things, like channel changing, are notably slower. It takes an average of 4-5 seconds to change a channel with "native" off (that's the faster mode), as opposed to about 2.5 seconds on the HR10. This apparently has gotten worse with the latest release of software. It is down from about 9 seconds on the earliest releases, however.

The HR-20 doesn't have dual buffers, so only the current tuner you are watching is buffered, which is something I will certainly miss during football season.

If you lose satellite signal because of rain fade or for other reasons, you can't watch recordings! This issue is # 1 on the user "wish" list.

Also worrisome is it takes quite a while for the "to do" list to be populated with new recordings (hours, not minutes, like the 6.x HR-10). There's apparently an unfixed (to date) bug that causes some programs to be completely unscheduable, or some episodes of a season's pass to be scheduled, and some not.

Also, it takes about 23 clicks to turn on CC's. Worse than the HR-10, if you can believe that!

Apparently some features are better, tho. I'll report back when I have more experience with it. 

/steve


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## mx6bfast (Jan 2, 2004)

Although you got a good deal from speaking with a CSR today, from a monetary perspective this is what you get.

4 HR20's at $120 each = $480
Selling 4 HDTivo's at (low end) $250 each = $1000

Even time setting up the listing on ebay and shipping (which would be included in the selling price) and then if you decided to cancel D* 1 month in and pay the $283 cancellation fee you would still come out at least $200 ahead.


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

Two reasons- they pay a monthly license fee to Tivo for every DTivo. That's minor. The other is that people use the HR10 as leverage to get a better deal on an HR20. They don't want it going from person to person, with another person using the same unit every 6 months to get a free HR20.


Billy66 said:


> What is their interest in getting these off the market more so than any other piece of legacy equipment?


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

mx6bfast said:


> Although you got a good deal from speaking with a CSR today, from a monetary perspective this is what you get.
> 
> 4 HR20's at $120 each = $480
> Selling 4 HDTivo's at (low end) $250 each = $1000
> ...


That's one way of looking at it, but don't forget what I originally paid for the HR-10's, tho... and not too long ago. 1000 each for the first two. The others cost 600 and 400. Plus one Weaknees bracket, fan and a second hard drive for one of them for about $250. It was money well-spent, however. Our family got a lot of pleasure from using these units, and I don't regret the investment for a moment.

/steve


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## Krookut (Apr 7, 2002)

Billy66 said:


> You're missing the point. With a little nudge, they don't want the HR10 back. They're just going through the motions. The HR20 discount (or free for plenty) is available regardless.
> 
> Mine was free with no return of the HR10.
> 
> What is their interest in getting these off the market more so than any other piece of legacy equipment?


What do we have to do to get a free HR20?


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## packerfan (Jan 8, 2002)

Krookut said:


> What do we have to do to get a free HR20?


I think they are more willing to work with you if you are not in a contract. If you have been a long time customer, they will be willing to give you the hr20 for free or at a reduced price in order to get you back in a contract with them. A lot of it depends on the customer service rep that you end up speaking with.


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## scottjf8 (Nov 11, 2001)

Trust me - you will learn to like the HR-20.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Those are my feelings as well, Scott, but I try not to go on about it here.


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

scottjf8 said:


> Trust me - you will learn to like the HR-20.


I tried...believe me...I really tried to like it.

But I hate it. Luckily, I kept my two HR10-250's. I ended up putting the HR-20 in the kid's game room....that is THEIR DVR now.

My advice to OP...Hold on to your HR10-250's for a little while until you decide if you are happy with the HR20....and even then, keep at least one of your HR10-250's.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

scottjf8 said:


> Trust me - you will learn to like the HR-20.


How can I like it when it constantly misses recordings or has bad recordings. Until it can do the most basic DVR functionality, record the programs I want it to record, it will be hated.


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## dwette (Oct 22, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> I just got two HR20's for $100 each, didn't have to send them my 2 HR10's they are still live actualy.
> 
> Although I do own my HR10's, I'm not sure if you mentioned owning or leasing yours.


I got both my HR20s for free (after instant and delayed credits). Of my 2 HR10s one was owned and one was leased. D* didn't want the leased one back, so they changed its status to "owned" for me. I sold both on Craigslist for $250 each.


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