# 4 Digit Sky radio channels - Hacking a fix



## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Will these and the big channel reshuffle upset Tivo?
http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/news.php?class=countries&subclass=193&id=769

Automan.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

What 4 digit channels? No mention of 4 digit channels in that link?


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Whoops,
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=205802 claims radio channels will have a leading zero making just them four digits.

Automan.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

TiVo were made aware of this the other day and it is being investigated whether four digit channels can be supported. They can in the current USA software, but possibly not in the UK software.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

As part of one of my TiVo-to_Tivo show transfer hacks, I create a dummy recording with a dummy channel. To be sure that it didn't interfere with any real channels, I assigned it a channel number of 1000. If I select it from Live TV, TiVo sends 1-0-0-0 with no problems, so 4 digit numbers are no problem per se

I guess the only issue might be leading zeros?


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## the_hut (Dec 31, 2001)

sanderton said:


> I guess the only issue might be leading zeros?


Sorry to be dense, but could you elaborate on this?


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

I don't know if TiVo treats the channel number as an integer or a string. If the latter "0123" won't be a problem, if the former it will be as the database will store 123. There's a TiVo menu option to pad with leading zeros, but I presume it just pads to three didgits.

I can see how to do a Q&D hack if it is a problem.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

I can't imagine Tivo USA wanting to try and update old / obsolete code.

Also an automatic software upgrade would cause quite a few Tivo owners with modified hardware quite a few problems.

I would suspect
Tivo's with > 160Gb drives would fail to boot after the upgrade.
Loaded extras for web access / auto padding / red dot removal would need fixing.

Two version of the software would also be needed. One with teletext subtitle support and the other without (or a menu option to turn it on).

Automan.


scoopuk said:


> Well it needs to be.
> 
> The TiVo service is great at supporting recording of radio programmes, almost as important for me as the TV channels.
> 
> ...


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Automan said:


> ... an automatic software upgrade would cause quite a few Tivo owners with modified hardware quite a few problems ...
> 
> ... Tivo's with > 160Gb drives would fail to boot after the upgrade.


If they had any sense, they would include a large-drive kernel within the update.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

It is (99%) confirmed the radio channels will be four-digit - it is not yet confirmed that all tv channels will stay as three digit. Some of the minority channels may also be 4-digit.

Also, Sky currently requires all digits to be sent (including leading zeroes). This may mean that if BBC1 is still on 101 - then 0101 may have to be sent.

Currently, if you want a tv channel on sky that is less than 100 in the EPG - you have to send all the digits. so for channel 051 - if TiVo only sends 51 - then the Sky box times out waiting for the third digit.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Hmm. Every time I try to set up a channel with a leading zero, tivosh interprets the 0 as meaning the number is in hex, so 0200 is stored as 128...


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## the_hut (Dec 31, 2001)

This does not look good. Sanderton's software development has been superior to Tivo Inc's for years (look at endpad!) so if he can't see it working then.......


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Double hmm. It seems to store the channel number as an integer, ie 1-32000-ish. So while 4 figure channels are no problem, 4 figure channels beginning with a 0 are. And because the maximum is 32k, my instant though of a workaround sending an eight digit number won't work.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

I have been told by Sky on several occasions that boxes can stop receiving software updates as they get older - volitile memory becomes useless.

I guess such boxes will also be unable to use these numbers.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

Techically, TiVo should be able to cope even if it means a software download - as they have four-digit numbers in the US.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

sanderton said:


> Double hmm. It seems to store the channel number as an integer, ie 1-32000-ish. So while 4 figure channels are no problem, 4 figure channels beginning with a 0 are. And because the maximum is 32k, my instant though of a workaround sending an eight digit number won't work.


Ok, not an elegant workaround, but it could work... Could the IR codes for, for example, 0 and 1 be swapped around, and change all the channel numbers accordingly?

So. for example, channel 0103 would appear to be channel 1013 on the Tivo, and channel 0074 would appear as channel 1174 on the Tivo?


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

It would be nice if they could only send any software change ('upgrade'  ) to TiVos that download *Sky* listings; 
however, I have backed up my */var/hack* dirs just in case.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

The workaround would be to change the "Sky" command that is sent before each channel change to send "Sky, Zero" which would allow all four digit channels starting with zero to be accessed. This can be easily done.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Kitchcamp's idea could work, I think. Your won't Gary, as if you tiired to select TV channel 123 or 1234 you'd get radio channel 0123


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

Sanderton not sure if you were replying to me, but scenarios are:

1) Normal TV channels still use 3 digits

Solution: TiVo does not change anything

2) Normal TV channels now use four digits, so BBC1 is 0101

Solution: TiVo sends zero before each channel change like it does the Sky command.
Issues: For channel 1001 TiVo would send 01001 which might not work.

As is now, does 0101 change to BBC1 on a Sky box?


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

The RADIO channels will start with a 0; the TV channels will not, so that idea won't work I'm afraid.

1) is no solution as we won't be able to record radio.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

If you mean the scenario would be channels as follows:

101 = BBC1 TV
0101 = Radio 1

Then yes the TiVo software as is could not handle this.

The only possible way around (and it would be very hard if at all possible) would be to setup a dual tuner configuration where both tuners use the SCART. This would allow the radio channels on one tuner (sending a zero prepend), and the TV channels on the other (no prepend). This is too complex for the average user though.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

That's how I read teh satements to date, yes.

That's an interesting approach.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, and then get hacking if TiVo don't fix it for us.

Certainly a good time to back up your hacks!


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## ALanJay (Jun 14, 2000)

As I understand it - and as now the new software (if not the channel numbers) have been downloaded to some boxes - TV channels will remain 3 digit so TiVo should countinue to work.

Radio channels will switch to 4 digits the first one being "0" - if you have the new software on your digibox then pushing "0" brings up the "Speaker Icon" then you can add 3 additional digits - of course this doesn't actually do anything useful at the moment.



sanderton said:


> You won't be able to attach a Sky HD box to a TiVo. It's only analogue out will be component, and it will not downscale HD to SD resolutions.


Not sure that is true - I think that it has been mentioned that there will be a SCART connection for not High Definition devices but intil they release more detail we won't know for certain.



sanderton said:


> All HD boxes will be PVRs anyway.


This is true so unlikely to be an issue for most 



sanderton said:


> Four digit channels don't need an update per se; the problem is the leading zero.


Indeed from what has been said if they switched to 4 digits for everything it would be less of a problem than the leading 0.

Anyway good to see that people are thinking about this and hopefully there will be a work around possible if not no more recording of radion channels


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

A workaround for us who are able to hack our TiVos may well be possible, however what worries me is that the majority of TiVo users out there will no longer be able to record from radio channels. Will Tribune continue to support the data for a tiny minority of people who've worked out how to get their boxes to record "impossible" channel numbers?

Obviously, there are more than one platforms and radio recording won't be affected on Freeview, but I can definately see the scenario of TiVo asking for the 0xxx channels not to appear on Sky setups since they'll get many people calling customer services asking why the TiVo isn't changing to these channels.

Hmmm - I see another use for the Freeview box that's currently proping open the kitchen door...


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

I can't see TiVo carrying the listings for radio channels which it can not access using its own software.

If Radio 1 moves from 851 to 0101 - and TiVo can not access 0101 using its own software - then I would expect Radio 1 listings to be removed.

So a hack would not be much use.


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

pahunt said:


> Is there any time scale on when Sky will start rolling out the update, or has it already started?


I got the software update on Friday. I spotted it when a channel change failed to work with the first digit being lost when trying to change to 105. I was curious about the "speaker"5 channel I saw it try to change to.

I tried forcing an update on a Sky box here at work - that still hasn't updated to the new software so I guess they're still gradually rolling out the updates for various set top box models (both my home and work boxes are Pace, but different generations).


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

ALanJay said:


> Not sure that is true - I think that it has been mentioned that there will be a SCART connection for not High Definition devices but intil they release more detail we won't know for certain.


That's from the horse's mouth at Sky. Only analogue out is component, and it will not scale the output so SD signal will come out SD and an HD one HD.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

ozsat said:


> I can't see TiVo carrying the listings for radio channels which it can not access using its own software.
> 
> If Radio 1 moves from 851 to 0101 - and TiVo can not access 0101 using its own software - then I would expect Radio 1 listings to be removed.
> 
> So a hack would not be much use.


Most of the radio stations are on FreeView, so will still be relevant to TiVo. We might have to change Guided Setup to Sky+ FreeView to make sure the listings are there.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

ALanJay said:


> Indeed from what has been said if they switched to 4 digits for everything it would be less of a problem than the leading 0.


Yes, you can hack the TiVo to pad to four digits with zeros simply enough. But then you lose the difference between 0101 being Radio 1 and 101 being BBC 1.

Basically, Sky have apparrently chosen the method which will cause the most problems to 3rd part devices. Deliberately? Maybe.

I have to say, it's not an easy one for TiVo to fix. The software will have to know that BBCR1 is radio and therefore it should send 0101 and BBC1 is Tv and it should send 101. AFAIK, there is no flag or other indicator in the TiVo software that agiven channel is radio or TV.

So either they have to add one (quite a big job, and with 20,000 odd paid for downloads an expensive one) or they drop radio.

This one could be tricky. I have some ideas though.


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## ALanJay (Jun 14, 2000)

sanderton said:


> Yes, you can hack the TiVo to pad to four digits with zeros simply enough. But then you lose the difference between 0101 being Radio 1 and 101 being BBC 1.
> 
> Basically, Sky have apparrently chosen the method which will cause the most problems to 3rd part devices. Deliberately? Maybe.
> 
> This one could be tricky. I have some ideas though.


Yes indeed - I'm not sure Sky thought of it like that I bet they thought the reverse and thought that by keeping the core TV stations the same they were helping people 

It is a shame you couldn't set TiVo up for two receivers both on the SCART input one with 3 digits and one with 4 and leading 0s 



sanderton said:


> That's from the horse's mouth at Sky. Only analogue out is component, and it will not scale the output so SD signal will come out SD and an HD one HD.


I wonder which hrose that was - an interesting decision. I would have not been surprised to see the box with a SCART connection to allow for people to upgrade to HD (if you are a new subscriber you might find this useful) and also if your HD display dies then not being able to plug your box for playback into another TV is a curious decision.

Of course the biggest reason for having a SCART is archiving material no SCART means that you won't be able to offload content to a VCR/DVD recorder and that could in some peoples eyes be a disadvantage even if it wasn't a HD copy (which the copyright owners won't like without security) I'm sure some people and some content would be most usefully archived to SD DVD. But only time will tell on what is in Sky's mind.

It will aslo be interesting to see what chipset they have gone for some of those that meet their needs do scaling as part of their hardware featureset.


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## Vish (Mar 8, 2005)

Could TiVo not be fooled into changing to a radio channel by sending a 0 to enable radio first with a 3 digit code for the relevant radio station in quick succession after ?


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

ALanJay said:


> It is a shame you couldn't set TiVo up for two receivers both on the SCART input one with 3 digits and one with 4 and leading 0s


When I said I had some ideas, that's exactly what I meant!


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## Vish (Mar 8, 2005)

or, since TiVo can send IR commands, could it not be possible for it to send the correct commands to the sky box for it to select the correct radio station from one of the interactive menus, maybe tv guide? (i think, from memory), any comments on this?


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Vish said:


> Could TiVo not be fooled into changing to a radio channel by sending a 0 to enable radio first with a 3 digit code for the relevant radio station in quick succession after ?


No; partly because TiVo deoesn't know which are radio and which are TV, partly because there's no simple way of hacking what TiVo does on a channel change.


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## Vish (Mar 8, 2005)

sanderton said:


> No; partly because TiVo deoesn't know which are radio and which are TV, partly because there's no simple way of hacking what TiVo does on a channel change.


 I was thinking more of when TiVo sends a '0' command, the sky box will come up as displaying a radio symbol and waiting for a 3 digit code, it maybe shows up for 10 seconds on screen waiting for the code and during this time, TiVo could send a 3 digit code to complete the change to the desired station. I think the problem will be in getting TiVo to send the code in quick succession (this is the part that needs a hack i think). Proly easier managed from TiVoweb than a un-networked box.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Could TiVo send a Channel 999 command and then a series of Channel Up commands to get to the required Radio channel?


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

How many channels ups would be required?

The EPG is not the same in all areas.

Also, I expect a channel up from 999 would take you to tv 101.

I beleive the 0 idea is a second EPG list.


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## The Obo (Feb 22, 2005)

GarySargent said:


> The workaround would be to change the "Sky" command that is sent before each channel change to send "Sky, Zero" which would allow all four digit channels starting with zero to be accessed. This can be easily done.


 Does Tivo actually send a "SKY" command to the box before changing channel?
Is this an optional feature somewhere?
My dam SKY box tends go into Standby mode randomly and Tivo never turns it back on.
How can I get around this?


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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

Welcome to the forum

If you use the code 20016 under manufacturer "Grundig" (even if you don't have a Grundig Box) then it sends the SKY key first.


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## mrtickle (Aug 26, 2001)

It is an important topic and time is running out! A few points:



GarySargent said:


> If you mean the scenario would be channels as follows:
> 
> 101 = BBC1 TV
> 0101 = Radio 1
> ...


I like this as an idea. It could be scripted to make it simpler - there are over 1000 users of Endpad I believe, which isn't bad going. If there are guides like Hinsdale for such "dangerous" operations as backup/restore, then the capabilities of the average user shouldn't be our show-stopper.

If this really is the only possible way, should we not be trying to get it working now?



ALanJay said:


> Yes indeed - I'm not sure Sky thought of it like that I bet they thought the reverse and thought that by keeping the core TV stations the same they were helping people
> 
> It is a shame you couldn't set TiVo up for two receivers both on the SCART input one with 3 digits and one with 4 and leading 0s


See above 



ozsat said:


> I can't see TiVo carrying the listings for radio channels which it can not access using its own software.
> 
> If Radio 1 moves from 851 to 0101 - and TiVo can not access 0101 using its own software - then I would expect Radio 1 listings to be removed.
> 
> So a hack would not be much use.


I understand yes but this is a difficult one to accept, I really hope that doesn't happen. Freeview and cable lineups would still carry the listings, though, with their users able to enjoy Season Passes on radio channels. It would be a great shame if we had a hack working only to be scuppered by lack of listings


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## xxxx (Oct 17, 2002)

Can Tivo only handle channel numbers that use the digits 0 - 9 ? Could other IR codes be mapped to a digit on a per-use basis?

It seems to me that if the Tivo was made to treat all Sky channels as having 4 digits (and it seems that this is possible) then if it could be made to output an invalid first character for non-radio channels the problem would be solved.

For example:

Radio channel 801 requires 0801 to be output. Tivo knows this channel as 0801 and outputs 0801 and the Sky box sees 0801.

TV channel 101 requires only 101 to be output. Tivo knows this channel as <not 0>101 and so Tivo outputs <rubbish>101, and the Sky box sees just 101.

I could make Windows/VB do this easily but please be aware that I don't do Linux/TivoOS, so don't blame me if Linux/TivoOS can't do it!

Over to you, Linux/TivoOS buffs.


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## ALanJay (Jun 14, 2000)

mrtickle said:


> It is an important topic and time is running out! A few points:
> 
> I understand yes but this is a difficult one to accept, I really hope that doesn't happen. Freeview and cable lineups would still carry the listings, though, with their users able to enjoy Season Passes on radio channels. It would be a great shame if we had a hack working only to be scuppered by lack of listings


Yes this *will* happen in the next couple of months. Sky have begun downloading the second part of the EPG update to digiboxes and once that has been fully rolled out then we can expect to see the channel shuffle and movement of the radio stations.

The reality is that unless TiVo decide that this is something that should be supported that they could take the decisiont to remove the radio listings unless someone has written code to do this and they belive there is enough demand for them.

As you say there will be a requirement for the channle listings on other platforms so it is just an acessibility issue.

Of course the added fun is that the current channel numbers will be reused quite quickly I suspect so the radio stations will have to be tagged accordingly.

The reality is there are some clever people on this forum but they can't do much until we know what TiVo plan to do. If they are going to remove the listings then there isn't much we can do. If they are not going to remove the listing how are they going to keep the channels accessible when the numbers will be reused?

Can they add a "*" or "#" before the channel numbers to differenciate the radio channels and then it would just be a matter of sending a leading zero when that was seen?

But without the help of TiVo this may be a bit of a lost cause that we are rushing towards.


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

Another work around that TiVo could impliment to get round the leading zero problem is to have *7* digit channel numbers for the radio stations.

To get channel 0101 say, the TiVo would attempt to change to 9990101. The first 3 digits would be entered as normal (nominally an unoccupied channel number on Sky), but then the next 4 digits would then be accepted as an immediate subsequent channel change. I've tried this out on my Sky box and it appears to work. While not ideal and looking clunky, this would allow TiVo to change to the new style radio channels.

What I'm not sure of however is whether TiVo can store 7 digit channel numbers. If it stores them internally as 8 bit integers, we're still stuck as this would limit channels to being between 0 and 65535...

Failing this, I've already wired in my obsolete Freeview box in preparation for my TiVo's extensive role in recording Radio 4, which would otherwise be sorely missed.


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## chimaera (Nov 13, 2000)

aerialplug said:


> If it stores them internally as 8 bit integers, we're still stuck as this would limit channels to being between 0 and 65535...


I think you meant 16 bit


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

chimaera said:


> I think you meant 16 bit


Yup, I did!


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

aerialplug said:


> What I'm not sure of however is whether TiVo can store 7 digit channel numbers. If it stores them internally as 8 bit integers, we're still stuck as this would limit channels to being between 0 and 65535...
> 
> Failing this, I've already wired in my obsolete Freeview box in preparation for my TiVo's extensive role in recording Radio 4, which would otherwise be sorely missed.


Sorry Hywel, but that was my first idea and I tried it and it doesn't work - TCL's integers cant store numbers that big.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

The same could be achieved with five digits.

Set prepend sequence (currently the sky button) to send 11.

For radio channels eg 0101, these become: 10101
For TV channels eg 101, these become 1101

So for the radio channel above TiVo would send 1110101 which is 111 then 0101 so you end up on 0101.

The TV channel TiVo would send 111101 which is 111 then 101 so you end up on 101.

So basically all channels have 1000 added, and 11 is sent before each channel change.

So can TiVo handle channel numbers up to 10999?!


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## Markj (Jul 12, 2003)

why dont sky stick to either a fixed 4 charcter number or 5 giving them either 9999 channels or 99999, they curently have a fixed 3 digit and dont use numbers below 100 ie 2 digit. This was to avoid having to put some kind of time out channels selection in the software. i.e. if they had used channel 10 and you wanted 101 when would it cut off input and accept channel 10.
If they started at 1000 and went to 9999 there would not be a technical problem for Tivo would there, and it would keep the traditional SKY digital fixed channel number length.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

The problem for TiVo is that the channel starts with a zero. If Sky put the radio channels in the 1000's and kept the TV channels as is, TiVo could still cope. It is the initial zero it can't cope with as the channel is held internally as an integer not a string.


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## Markj (Jul 12, 2003)

Yes I realise that gary, dont know why they are doing this, cant see subscibers being too happy about keying leading zeros, the range of 1000 to 9999 gives them 9101 more channels than previously and they dont need to use leading zeros, so apart form the obvious sinister plot to kill us off, why do it. 
You can bet the cable companies will follow suit and that will really be the end.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

GarySargent said:


> The same could be achieved with five digits.
> 
> Set prepend sequence (currently the sky button) to send 11.
> 
> ...


You need 8 digits - if you send a 5 digit number the Sky box resets the input after 4 so you are left with a hanging single digit.

Edit: sorry, I get what you mean now, so all channels changes would go "through" selecting 111 on their way to what they want.

TCL integers go up to the usual 65,000 odd so that should be possible, yes. The hack to do it would have to maintain a list of radio station IDs, and be able to run under cron as the channel list is liable to be rebuilt after a dalily call.

Is changing the pre-pend to Sky-1-1 just a matter of concatenating the IR strings?


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Markj said:


> Yes I realise that gary, dont know why they are doing this, cant see subscibers being too happy about keying leading zeros, the range of 1000 to 9999 gives them 9101 more channels than previously and they dont need to use leading zeros, so apart form the obvious sinister plot to kill us off, why do it.
> You can bet the cable companies will follow suit and that will really be the end.


Try keying a leading zero on a Sky box and a little radio symbol appears, not a zero. I'm sure it looks very nice to an interface designer!


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

sanderton said:


> Is changing the pre-pend to Sky-1-1 just a matter of concatenating the IR strings?


Yes, and changing the third digit which is a count of the number of pairs. Also the first four numbers are special you don't concat them.

So you have:

ENTER = 0 x y 0 a a a a ...

DIGIT1 = 0 x w 0 b b b b ...

so where v=y+w+w, you make:

ENTER = 0 x v 0 a a a a ... b b b b ... b b b b ...

If this isn't 100% clear post the MFS values for ENTER and DIGIT1 on 20016 and I'll give you the new ENTER sequence.

P.S. Sorry I clicked edit instead of reply first time so made your reply into mine. Doh. Think I have put it all back now!


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

I'll have a play.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

Markj said:


> why dont sky stick to either a fixed 4 charcter number or 5 giving them either 9999 channels or 99999, they curently have a fixed 3 digit and dont use numbers below 100 ie 2 digit. This was to avoid having to put some kind of time out channels selection in the software. i.e. if they had used channel 10 and you wanted 101 when would it cut off input and accept channel 10.
> If they started at 1000 and went to 9999 there would not be a technical problem for Tivo would there, and it would keep the traditional SKY digital fixed channel number length.


Actually, until the latest software update with the ZERO indicator for audio channels, Sky did have channels on numbers below 101.

Regular customers could not see them but commercial customers could.


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

Yes, but you needed a cable head end card to be able to see them. As you say, "normal" peolpe would never see these variations (which were in our case a couple of ITV regions and possibly different versions of Channel 4/Sky News. I forget now - we never got a new card when they upgraded the cards a couple of years ago.

Ours were free-to-view only cards so there may be other 2 digit channels on the pay channels that we didn't get to see. weren't there 4 digit ones also? Ones beginning with 1 though, not 0.


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

sanderton said:


> Try keying a leading zero on a Sky box and a little radio symbol appears, not a zero. I'm sure it looks very nice to an interface designer!


Also, IIRC, new Sky remote controls have a loud speaker symbol on the 0 key - which makes sense in the new scheme of things.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

aerialplug said:


> Yes, but you needed a cable head end card to be able to see them. As you say, "normal" peolpe would never see these variations (which were in our case a couple of ITV regions and possibly different versions of Channel 4/Sky News. I forget now - we never got a new card when they upgraded the cards a couple of years ago.
> 
> Ours were free-to-view only cards so there may be other 2 digit channels on the pay channels that we didn't get to see. weren't there 4 digit ones also? Ones beginning with 1 though, not 0.


Not just cable head-ends. There were <100 channel numbers for the BBCi multi-screens (allowing them to be monitored independently of the application without having to use ADD CHANNELs or a non-Sky box). There were also cards which allowed BBC One out-of-nation viewing prior to the move to FTA (when BBC One was regionally restricted to 'within nation' viewing on regular cards) - allowing all four BBC One national variations to be watched on the same box.

AIUI there are also (4:3 only?) pub-versions of Sky Sports cards (also used by broadcasters for off-air feeds?) and these may be in the <100 range - or were?


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

Sneals2000 said:


> Not just cable head-ends. There were <100 channel numbers for the BBCi multi-screens (allowing them to be monitored independently of the application without having to use ADD CHANNELs or a non-Sky box). There were also cards which allowed BBC One out-of-nation viewing prior to the move to FTA (when BBC One was regionally restricted to 'within nation' viewing on regular cards) - allowing all four BBC One national variations to be watched on the same box.
> 
> AIUI there are also (4:3 only?) pub-versions of Sky Sports cards (also used by broadcasters for off-air feeds?) and these may be in the <100 range - or were?


Yes, it was not just cable heads ends - some commercial sites (pubs/hotels) also had them. There were a couple of TiVo customers with them!

All the 0xx channels were moved above 101 before the new audio EPG option.


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## 10203 (Nov 11, 2001)

sanderton said:


> I'll have a play.


Anything I can do to help?

Have TiVo made a statement one way or the other about what they'll do? Gary? Ozsat?


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

LJ said:


> Have TiVo made a statement one way or the other about what they'll do? Gary? Ozsat?


I phoned customer services late last week - they were definitely aware that there was a looming problem but I also got the distinct impression that customer services weren't aware of any forthcoming solutions.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

The solution unfortunately appears to be to bury ones head in the sand


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

Please from now on use this thread for discussion of hacks to fix this problem, not discussions about TiVo's service etc. That is being discussed here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=259645

Lets keep the discussion and technical matters separated so the threads make more sense. I've split the original thread as best I could.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

aerialplug said:


> I also got the distinct impression that customer services weren't aware of any forthcoming solutions.


I'm sure one will appear SOON


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## Captain Scarlet (Sep 12, 2003)

GarySargent said:


> I'm sure one will appear SOON


This seems to be a change from what you were saying before Gary?

Or do you mean the solution appearing soon will only be for members of this group prepared to hack their own Tivo boxes? This obviously wouldn't help the other 18,000+ uk Tivo users.

If however Tivo have had a change of heart and genuinely found a solution then that is indeed really great news.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

Yes it does seem to be a change from what I was saying before doesn't it


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## mrtickle (Aug 26, 2001)

Fred says hi!


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

I miss Fred. Good to hear he's still about.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

GarySargent said:


> I'm sure one will appear SOON


That's great news 

I just hope if it requires a software upgrade that TiVo will include the LBA48 kernel...


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## mrtickle (Aug 26, 2001)

A bit of nostalgia, and more levels of "soon"  than I remembered:
http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?threadid=46383&highlight=2.5.5+download

This could well be the original incantation:
http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?threadid=28773&highlight=soon+2.5.5


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

aerialplug said:


> I phoned customer services late last week - they were definitely aware that there was a looming problem but I also got the distinct impression that customer services weren't aware of any forthcoming solutions.


The thing about CS in most companies, is that they are not told until the public need to know.

Gary and myself have been puhing hard with various suggestions and ideas - and TiVo have been looking at different options.

Until the best option is actually agreed, implemented and tested - there is no point in spreading hopes. And too many people in various CS offices speak too soon.


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## Captain Scarlet (Sep 12, 2003)

ozsat said:


> Until the best option is actually agreed, implemented and tested - there is no point in spreading hopes. And too many people in various CS offices speak too soon.


I can see the difficulty that such inappropriate leaks from customer services can cause.

On the other hand as a customer it often feels as though CS in many companies don't do the job they ought to do because they seem unwilling to feedback positive suggestions from customers for product improvements to those in the company who actually have the power to get something done (marketing, engineering and software development).

I find the whole modern customer services model to be far too reactive and passive with the people who have to take the calls subjected to criticism all day from the customers about company policy but are personally unempowered to do too much about it. Being a customer service rep seems to be almost the modern equivalent of being a Roman galley slave!

I find that if one has any issue with company policy it is necessary to bypass customer services and send one's ideas to the board directors of the company. These days with email and About Us and Corporate Governance sections on most company websites its a lot easier than it used to be. Usually these directors don't reply to one's emails (some do though) but more often than not they are reading them. Only the other day I received a very unexpected phone call from Ben Verwaayen, CEO of BT, as a result of an email I sent him in connection with my SayNoto0870.com campaigning.


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## steford (Oct 9, 2002)

So is it impossible for Tivo to do stuff on channel changes? How about catching any channel starting 21 (not used on Sky) and replacing the 2 with 0 on send? Then radio channels could be entered as 2101 etc. Anything starting 2x where x is anything but 1 (for the time being as < 100 radio stations) could be skipped as normal 3 digit changes. All other changes remain unaffected. Would need some sort of remapping of channel numbers via hack or via channel setup. Any good?


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

Not sure why you dug this old thread up but since TiVo have a solution (see here http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=259645 ) I'll close this old thread.


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