# 4 Digit Sky radio channels - Discussion



## scoopuk

GarySargent said:


> TiVo were made aware of this the other day and it is being investigated whether four digit channels can be supported. They can in the current USA software, but possibly not in the UK software.


Well it needs to be.

The TiVo service is great at supporting recording of radio programmes, almost as important for me as the TV channels.

If the UK software needs a tweak and a minor upgrade so be it. It needs to be done by Tivo and downloaded to our boxes, not everyone is a computer hacker or IT expert, some of us mortals on here are just Tivo customers.

Remember it's TIVO boxes which are supposed to be unavailable here, not our Tivo service which we're still paying monthly for.


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## GarySargent

I suspect it is unlikely any software upgrade would happen - especially as the workaround would be to not be able to access the radio channels. That might upset some, but is no different from some Freeview boxes where you have to press a button to toggle to the radio channels.

----------------

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## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> I suspect it is unlikely any software upgrade would happen - especially as the workaround would be to not be able to access the radio channels. That might upset some, but is no different from some Freeview boxes where you have to press a button to toggle to the radio channels.


It is a lot different.

With Freeview you brought a box that didn't work - and lived with it.

With the new situation - you suddenly find you have lost access to something that has worked for years.

I use radio recordings a lot on TiVo - although usually via a Freeview box.


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## Automan

So if Sky do start to use four channel numbers for TV channels as well as radio channels does this mean our Tivo's will no longer be of any use (with Sky Digital)?

BTW, I have three Tivo's hooked up to Sky Digiboxes so don't think I'm plugging for Sky+ which of course will be able to handle such a change with a software update.

Automan.


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## Automan

*All Channels 4 Digits On Sky HD*
As mentioned in another thread details of Sky HD are out it should be possible to downgrade its output to work with Tivo http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds19616.html

Of course with out a doubt all channels will be four digits.
If this is the case will updated Tivo software be needed?

Automan.


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## GarySargent

Why without a doubt?

I am of the opinion that we will never get any more software updates ever.


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## Automan

For example http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=6870

Not that any of the channels will have anything on worth watching 

Also if Sky are using the same dish / sat combination for HD the channel line with hd and non HD channels must be close to or exceed the 1000 channel barrier.

Automan.


GarySargent said:


> Why without a doubt?
> 
> I am of the opinion that we will never get any more software updates ever.


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## pahunt

Is there any time scale on when Sky will start rolling out the update, or has it already started?


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## pahunt

Prompted by this thread I've just looked at my list of 100-odd season passes and wishlists and I've found that there are really only 3 things that I would lose by going from Sky to Top-up TV, Most Haunted on LivingTV, 24 on Sky One and new episodes of the Simpsons on Sky One (and those will come to C4 eventually no doubt).

Perhaps it might be a good time to ditch that digibox once and for all.


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## sanderton

Automan said:


> *All Channels 4 Digits On Sky HD*
> As mentioned in another thread details of Sky HD are out it should be possible to downgrade its output to work with Tivo http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds19616.html
> 
> Of course with out a doubt all channels will be four digits.
> If this is the case will updated Tivo software be needed?
> 
> Automan.


You won't be able to attach a Sky HD box to a TiVo. It's only analogue out will be component, and it will not downscale HD to SD resolutions.

All HD boxes will be PVRs anyway.

Four digit channels don't need an update per se; the problem is the leading zero.


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## scoopuk

aerialplug said:


> A workaround for us who are able to hack our TiVos may well be possible, however what worries me is that the majority of TiVo users out there will no longer be able to record from radio channels. ...


Absolutely, bearing in mind all the original publicity about Tivo and Sky being the future - which prompted us to buy Tivo in the first place - it surely isn't unreasonable to expect a working service from them when Sky changing their channel numbering system.

If they don't, it will surely raise alarm bells about future continuity of service for would-be American customers, who might ask if they're buying a box which will become redundant in three years or so. So much for it being the future....

Workaround hacks are not enough. We pay for our Tivo service - if they give up on this, how long before they give up all together ?


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## xxxx

sanderton: _That's from the horse's mouth at Sky. Only analogue out is component,_

If it's coming from Sky then it's more likely to be out of the horse's ar*e than its mouth.

I for one will eat my proverbial hat if the SkyHD box doesn't have either RF output, composite, RGB, S-Video or (much more likely) some mixture of some/all of them, along with whatever it has in the way of component and DVI/HDMI.

My bet is on RF with TVLink compatibility, composite scart and RGB scart. Just like all existing Sky digiboxes. They would have to be bonkers to alienate the owners of the existing 30+million TVs in the UK, few of which have component or digital inputs. Even those with DVI or component compatible screens in their lounge today probably also have an older CRT screen in the bedroom or kitchen, linked to their digibox in the lounge via coax or a videosender.


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## sanderton

I'm seeing them again next week so I'll ask!

Can't think why you'd add all those outputs when to use the box you need an HD Ready set and all HD Ready sets have HDMI.


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## xxxx

sanderton : _Can't think why you'd add all those outputs when to use the box you need an HD Ready set and all HD Ready sets have HDMI. _

As I mentioned: for use with other sets/recorders in the house that don't have any HD or component connections.

Unless Sky think that anyone getting an HDbox will also get a regular box, or keep the one they have with some sort of mirror subscription?

I don't know about other people but I would think about getting an HDdigibox even if I didn't have an HDTV, purely because the broadcast quality of many regular sat channels is far below the quality that my regular TV could display if the broadcast quality was better. So using an HDbox with my old TV would still give me a much better picture than I have now. A good reason to get one, I think, and one that might tempt many. Though if it had no analogue output this would be a complete non-starter, hence the daftness of not giving such a box suitable analogue outputs.


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## sanderton

I'm sure the assumption is that very few people will pay the exra for an HD box if they have no HD TV.

One thing that Sky were very explit about is that the box will NOT downscale HD to SD resolution - whatever is broadcast, that's what will come out of the anlaogue out. So your SD TV would not work except when it was tuned to an SD channel.


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## GarySargent

4 Digit Sky Channels is an important topic so can we keep offtopic conversations of HD TV in the chit-chat thread please?


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## bounderboy

I know its a bit of a sadistic view but it almost gives an insight on how Tivo views the UK market with regards to additional coding. 

And it also gives the Forum something interesting to read again


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## GarySargent

To be fair it is unrealistic to expect TiVo to continually patch their software to cope with changes in software sent to digiboxes. It's a shame the current IR code isn't more configurable, but it isn't.

I've yet to see a definitive new channel list - is there one? I know there was speculation that sky would use 0<number> for radio channels, but I've yet to see this confirmed by Sky anywhere.


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## ALanJay

GarySargent said:


> I've yet to see a definitive new channel list - is there one? I know there was speculation that sky would use 0<number> for radio channels, but I've yet to see this confirmed by Sky anywhere.


This has been confirmed by Sky, what there isn't is a list of new channel numbers. But within the next 3 months the radio channels will switch to begin with "0". Sky have a big EPG channel number reshuffle coming and to perform it they have to move the radio channels.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds20466.html
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds20318.html

Sky have said this all in press briefings and the software is now in all the digiboxes and most of the Sky+ boxes so it can't be long before the autumn roll out of the change.

Garry I do agree that TiVo can't be expected to jump every thime there is an issue but I'm sure they know what is going on and it would be good if they said how they were going to deal with it (doing nothing defines what they will do).

The current software in the Digiboxes is exactly how the software will work with the new EPG the current TV channels will all have 3 digits if you want radio you will have to add a zero (see the speaker icon) and then enter the channel number of the radio station. You can check the behaviour now 

Earlier in the thread there were comments about second STB one way to do this with the current second STB via RF would be to put the radio channels in a second "Sky Radio" STB on the RF input that required 4 digits with leading zeros (all current options). The only down side would be that you wouldn't get stereo.


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## the_moog

GarySargent said:


> To be fair it is unrealistic to expect TiVo to continually patch their software to cope with changes in software sent to digiboxes.


No it isn't... not when we're paying £10/month for an ongoing service!!!


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## mrtickle

ALanJay said:


> Yes this *will* happen in the next couple of months. Sky have begun downloading the second part of the EPG update to digiboxes and once that has been fully rolled out then we can expect to see the channel shuffle and movement of the radio stations.


Indeed. I really don't want to restart a new debate about whether or not it will happen, I thought that was long over. It's due very soon 



> The reality is that unless TiVo decide that this is something that should be supported that they could take the decisiont to remove the radio listings unless someone has written code to do this and they belive there is enough demand for them.
> [...]
> The reality is there are some clever people on this forum but they can't do much until we know what TiVo plan to do. If they are going to remove the listings then there isn't much we can do. If they are not going to remove the listing how are they going to keep the channels accessible when the numbers will be reused?


My point was they will still supply listings, for the Freeview and cable lineups. (They may or may not remove for the Sky lineup, leaning to wards "may" it seems). A solution could involve Gary's idea of dual lineups, using the Freeview listings but botched/hacked channel numbers (possible with a script intervening to assist with the channel changes *).

We could test this now with a dual Sky/Freeview lineup to see if listings data was viewable on Tivo and it could be persuaded to record from the scart input instead of RF on the 2nd lineup?

* LJ's red dot script waited for a recording to start, and then fired RF commands. A variation on this theme could wait for recordings on certain channels starting 1 minute early (dummy channel change by TiVo) and then fire RF (the real channel change with 4 digits).


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## andyjenkins

the_moog said:


> No it isn't... not when we're paying £10/month for an ongoing service!!!


But I dont believe your paying £10 per month for software updates ... only TV guide data ??

I thought that if you did not subscribe to TiVo's service - you'd still get any software updates available at the time, no ? Hence no relation to £10 per month to software updates.


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## xxxx

Sky digibox users get free updates as required, even if they don't subscribe to Sky. Freeview boxes get free software updates. My DVD player gets free updates. My ShowCenter gets free updates. My Zen Micro gets free updates. My copy of WinXP gets free updates. My ADSL router gets free updates.
None of the above require any payment at all for use. So Tivo ought to do the same even without the monthly £10 they charge for the service. Given that they do charge a monthly £10 that's all the more reason why needed updates should be timely and free.


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## aerialplug

To be honest, do TiVo percieve it as a major problem? For quite some time we had no schedule information for any radio services. Granted, on Sky, we could set up manual recordings without the data as TiVo at least knew the radio station numbers but I remember it came as quite a suprprise to TiVo staff in the London "get to know the customers" evening they put on a few years ago that we wanted schedules for radio. It wasn't long after that meeting that Radio 4 and a few of the more "scheduleable" statios started getting data.

Personally, I can't see a solution to the leading 0 problem coming from TiVo. They no longer provide support for series 1 TiVos - whether American or UK so I can't see a software update ever coming from them. The solution (if any) is almost certainly going to have to come from us with a possible minor support role from TiVo continuing to provide the data for channels that are technically not possible to recieve any more.

My initial solution is to set up my freeview box in parallel with Sky so that Radio 4 gets recorded from there. Not ideal - mono instead of stereo but then Radio 4 on DAB is often mono...

Some of the solutions proposed in this thread also sound very promissing - hopefully we'll have something that works on the great and dreadful channel renumber day


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## xxxx

*Personally, I can't see a solution to the leading 0 problem coming from TiVo. They no longer provide support for series 1 TiVos - whether American or UK so I can't see a software update ever coming from them.*

I see no reason why any decent company should imagine that they can stop supporting a product that is only 3 years old (or much less as in fact there are still some unused UK Tivos being newly registered now) and for which many people are still paying a hefty monthly fee. Earlier in this thread I gave a list of firmware and software that require no monthly fee for use and which are still fully supported by the manufacturers, with free updates as and when needed.

Why should Tivo be different? Answers, on a postcard .........


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## mrtickle

Perhaps we could split this into two threads, one for discussions about the rights and wrongs of what is happening and the other for technical posts towards a hack/solution? I don't want the tech stuff to get lost in the other discussion, which is why I did a summary post last week


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## Andy Leitch

xxxx said:


> *Personally, I can't see a solution to the leading 0 problem coming from TiVo. They no longer provide support for series 1 TiVos - whether American or UK so I can't see a software update ever coming from them.*
> 
> I see no reason why any decent company should imagine that they can stop supporting a product that is only 3 years old (or much less as in fact there are still some unused UK Tivos being newly registered now) and for which many people are still paying a hefty monthly fee. Earlier in this thread I gave a list of firmware and software that require no monthly fee for use and which are still fully supported by the manufacturers, with free updates as and when needed.
> 
> Why should Tivo be different? Answers, on a postcard .........


Probably because TiVo can be different.

If they don't intend to invest the time and manpower to issue an upgrade, at least they could show some loyalty to the UK user and be open, upfront and honest about it.....and tell us!!

The S1 software is obviously worthless to them, I think they should make the S1 software open source and let the community take it forward. In a similar way to id software does with there game engines.
I've got the source for QIII, and I intend porting it across to AMiGAOS4, when I find the time, as I'm also a beta-tester for that OS which takes up most of my spare time.

Either way, the four digit problem won't bother me, as I'm ditching TiVo shortly for the HD loveliness from Sky.


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## tartan_haggis

Making the TiVo S1 software open source is a great idea. 

Most manufacturers have an escrow agreement for their software, whereby a third party holds the source code etc. in case the manufacturer goes out of business. Under these circumstances, a user group is formed who is then responsible for the ongoing maintenance of the software on behalf of all users.

Makes sense.


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## GarySargent

They should also give TiVo hardware away for free too and work as a charity.

Making the source code open source may benefit the people using TiVo, but it certainly won't benefit TiVo the company and its shareholders who want people to upgrade to the latest machines for the new software.

Don't forget that TiVo is a company with shareholders it has to account to who want the company to make as much profit as possible. I realise any kind of upgrade is not possible in the UK as the hardware is not available, but this is not the case in the USA.


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## Andy Leitch

GarySargent said:


> They should also give TiVo hardware away for free too and work as a charity.


TiVo don't make hardware in the UK, it's a Thomson box.



> Making the source code open source may benefit the people using TiVo, but it certainly won't benefit TiVo the company and its shareholders who want people to upgrade to the latest machines for the new software.


Maybe someone should inform those shareholders, that there are people in the UK with bundles of cash in their sweaty hands....just waiting for a UK compatible HD TiVo. If TiVo don't want that money....there are other manufacturers who will gladly take it.



> Don't forget that TiVo is a company with shareholders it has to account to who want the company to make as much profit as possible. I realise any kind of upgrade is not possible in the UK as the hardware is not available, but this is not the case in the USA.


Well that profit will soon be slightly smaller when I unsub my box and move over to a competing product.


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## pgogborn

GarySargent said:


> They should also give TiVo hardware away for free too and work as a charity.


I thought that was more or less what they do.

Current base price in the US after rebate is $50 (about £27).

Actually, if you were fast on your feet before different rebate schemes were brought into line, recently you could have got paid $51 to get a new TiVo >
http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2005/09/how_to_get_paid.html


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## tartan_haggis

GarySargent said:


> They should also give TiVo hardware away for free too and work as a charity.
> 
> Making the source code open source may benefit the people using TiVo, but it certainly won't benefit TiVo the company and its shareholders who want people to upgrade to the latest machines for the new software.
> 
> Don't forget that TiVo is a company with shareholders it has to account to who want the company to make as much profit as possible. I realise any kind of upgrade is not possible in the UK as the hardware is not available, but this is not the case in the USA.


Great. But the point I thought we were making is that this is also the TiVo that have put Series 1 on ice and are only providing a very basic support - the money is to be made from new Series 2 products in the USA.

What I was saying is that accepted industry practice is to let the customer base take over the support of old, unsupported versions. Doing that would let TiVo concentrate its resources on the new stuff, thus maximising shareholder return instead of sinking money into a "dead" product.


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## GarySargent

tartan_haggis said:


> Great. But the point I thought we were making is that this is also the TiVo that have put Series 1 on ice and are only providing a very basic support - the money is to be made from new Series 2 products in the USA.
> 
> What I was saying is that accepted industry practice is to let the customer base take over the support of old, unsupported versions. Doing that would let TiVo concentrate its resources on the new stuff, thus maximising shareholder return instead of sinking money into a "dead" product.


No, in that situation people may stay on Series 1 because they can hack it more and add in new functionality not in Series 2 (which is still a closed system).

From a business perspective, TiVo want to encourage people to upgrade, not stay on the old system.


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## blindlemon

GarySargent said:


> TiVo want to encourage people to upgrade, not stay on the old system.


So should we take TiVo's lack of interest in the 4-digit problem as a sign that there is shortly going to be something for us to upgrade to...?   :up:


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## iankb

tartan_haggis said:


> Making the TiVo S1 software open source is a great idea.


Don't see how they could, and still protect the many patents that the code would include. And those patents are still used within the S2 software.


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## Captain Scarlet

GarySargent said:


> No, in that situation people may stay on Series 1 because they can hack it more and add in new functionality not in Series 2 (which is still a closed system).
> 
> From a business perspective, TiVo want to encourage people to upgrade, not stay on the old system.


I understand that argument but when Tivo have no S2 uk model for us to upgrade to and we are still committed to their product then surely a way to support the 4 digit radio channels should be found.

It would be a pain having to manually key 4 digits for all channels (especially Freeview) but since most channel changing is done by the box for us it wouldn't be that big a deal surely?


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## mrtickle

We're fast running out of time now. Digital Spy yesterday previewed the version of the EPG which has the 4-digit radio channels.


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## GarySargent

They also said it would take months to roll the software out - plenty of time to move to Freeview!


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## Captain Scarlet

mrtickle said:


> We're fast running out of time now. Digital Spy yesterday previewed the version of the EPG which has the 4-digit radio channels.


It seeemed clear from that digitalspy article that it would take quite some time before the new EPG was rolled out to all makes and model of Sky Digibox past and present and that the channel numbers would not change until after the new EPG was fully rolled out and proven on all boxes.

I would suspect November or early December is the most likely time for the channel numbers to change (just in time for xmas perhaps).

Has everyone in this thread already lodged this as a formal issue with Tivo UK Customer Services on their 0870 number and also made it clear that we do expect it to be addressed, especially when many are still paying £10 per month for the Tivo program guide data service.

If enough people complain they are far more likely to be inclined to do something.

Also why not email the following members of the senior management team at Tivo Inc to register your concerns:-

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

http://investor.tivo.com/management.cfm

Luther Kitahata, who is Vice President of Software Engineering, may be the most relevant of these but would clearly need the approval of Brodie Keast and Art Clessuras to initiate the project. However they in turn might want Luther to tell them how much such a fix may cost Tivo.

Since as I understand it the uk service still makes Tivo Inc a profit and since we have no upgrade path to a better box in the UK I am sure the US management team should understand the neeed to modify the software to cope with an EPG change made by their original uk business partner and current customer service supplier for Tivo.

Although I have a dual source Sky Digibox and Freeview RF input setup on my Tivo I still have major issues with radio channels because the recent addition of Sky on our communal aerial setup has made the SDN Mux signal on Freeview too weak to receive reliably (that is most of the time). This is very bad news indeed as it knocks out BBC Radio 1 to 4 reception.

Please do complain to Tivo customer services and email those above. If enough people bother complaining they might do something.


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## GarySargent

Why do you understand that the UK service makes a profit? They didn't say it directly, but I interpretted something they said to me recently to mean it didn't (possibly wrongly who knows).

Mass emailing will only serve to piss them off.

Sky are the ones that should be lobbied if anything. This change will also break control of STB's by most videos that support that feature.


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## mrtickle

GarySargent said:


> They also said it would take months to roll the software out - plenty of time to move to Freeview!


Ok perhaps I'm panicking a bit early.

The Freeview option (2nd input, RF mono) would give me mono recordings which is no good. Satellite (and possibly cable) is the only platform that broadcasts BBC7 in stereo, and many of the programmes are in stereo. Even DAB, the so-called future of radio, broadcasts BBC7 in 1960's style mono.

I think the chances of Sky changing their entire plans for the EPG's future and doing a u-turn on 4 digit channels just for TiVo are smaller than the chances of TiVo producing a software upgrade, and both are tiny. In my view our only hope is a hack working on multiple levels
* getting radio listings from the Freeview part of a dual Sky+Freeview lineup and splicing them back onto the Sky (stereo scart input) lineup.
* handling the channel-changes


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## Captain Scarlet

GarySargent said:


> Mass emailing will only serve to piss them off.


I thought that was the British model of customer service response Gary?   Americans usually seem very concerned to do something if a lot of customers complain.

Politicians have to take notice of lots of complaints as opposed to only a few. Circular letters and petitions about contentious planning applications for instance are the norm and are expected. Toys are not thrown out of the pram as a result. Getting lots of complaints helps indicate the matter is a hot potato and that something needs to be done.

In my experience it seems to be engineering types who get upset about receiving a lot of complaints and who seem take it as some kind of personal slight for whatever reasons. Obviously I woud admit that historically speaking though Tivo is a rather engineering led as opposed to customer service led company.


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## Captain Scarlet

mrtickle said:


> I think the chances of Sky changing their entire plans for the EPG's future and doing a u-turn on 4 digit channels just for TiVo are smaller than the chances of TiVo producing a software upgrade, and both are tiny. In my view our only hope is a hack working on multiple levels
> * getting radio listings from the Freeview part of a dual Sky+Freeview lineup and splicing them back onto the Sky (stereo scart input) lineup.
> * handling the channel-changes


But MrTickle have you taken into account that of the 20,000+ Tivos sold and in operation perhaps only 1,000 or so have owners who are capable of instituting the hacks that you mention. I would in particular suspect that 95% of the £10 per month subscription payers are not capable of rectifying the 4 digit radio programs problem using the hacking method mentioned.

Is the problem with Tivo switching to all 4 digit channel numbers the fact that it would also want to send 4 digit numbers to Freeview and cable boxes too and some of them would then get confused by receiving a 4 digit signal?


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## Markj

It would seem that we are nothing more than a loss making pain in the arse for both Tivo and SKY, this would seem to be as good an excuse as any for Tivo to ditch a few more subscribers and coax them over to SKY+. This will also happen on the cables, they too will run out of channels and then thats it, bye bye the loss making Tivo UK.

Hope I am wrong


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## Captain Scarlet

Markj said:


> this would seem to be as good an excuse as any for Tivo to ditch a few more subscribers and coax them over to SKY+


Didn't you mean to say this will be a good excuse for Sky to get rid of a few more Tivo subscribers and coax them over to SKy+?

I don't think Tivo have anything to gain from us ditching our Tivo subscriptions. In fact if we are monthly Tivo subscribers it is actually going to cost them money so long as they continue having to run the service for the rest of the subscribers.


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## GarySargent

Just to repeat, the issue is not four digit channels, it is four digit channels which start with a zero. The scope of the issue is limited.


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## Captain Scarlet

GarySargent said:


> Just to repeat, the issue is not four digit channels, it is four digit channels which start with a zero. The scope of the issue is limited.


I would have thought that the existing Tivo setup options for saying whether or not you want to send leading zeros in IR commands would have coped with all this provided Tivo allowed all Sky channel numbers to have up to four digits?


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## Markj

I am just pointing out that if Tivo UK is a loss making venture, or soon to be a loss making venture (shrinking subscriber base) this would seem to be another point at which many subscribers could say that enough is enough and move on. That leaves a business that is being administed in the UK by SKY dont forget who know what it will take for Tivo to pull the plug, with a convenient exit piont and the SKY gamekeeper to turn poacher and pick up those eager £10 a month subscribers for it shinny new HD service. 
Dont forget that the reason we all went for Tivo is that it was cutting edge technology and although in most aspects nothing can come close to it, it has reached a cross roads with a change in broadcast technology just around the corner. 

Again I hope I am wrong and I will run my Tivo as long as It lasts, but even I cant wait to see a bit of HDTV on my HI res screen.


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## Captain Scarlet

I don't believe that Sky Digital have developed a cunning plan especially to in order to destory the Tivo S1 subscriber base as it simply isn't big enough to be worth them worrying about.

But equally I think that from their point of view Tivo is insignificant enough that they can just ignore the inconvenience they are causing it without expecting to face any consequences from one of their uk customers (i.e. Tivo).


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## xxxx

GarySargent said:


> Sky are the ones that should be lobbied if anything.


All Sky digibox users, with or without subscription, will be getting a free software update to handle the changes to the numbering system. Other manufacturers should do the same, where the equipment allows it. Tivo does allow for this so Tivo should do the same.


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## blindlemon

Since TiVo are still providing (and accepting monthly subscription fees for) the EPG service, which has to cope with regular changes to the EPG such as the 'normal' addition/removal/renumbering of channels, I don't see that this is really any different. 

The fact that it will require a small change to the software (rather than to the EPG metadata) is a technical distinction only, IMHO. The facility to update the software exists and is well-proven, so the change to cope with 4-digit channel renumbering should be rolled out as part of the normal service for which thousands of people are still paying £10 per month.


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## sanderton

Captain Scarlet said:


> I would have thought that the existing Tivo setup options for saying whether or not you want to send leading zeros in IR commands would have coped with all this provided Tivo allowed all Sky channel numbers to have up to four digits?


No, read through the threads on this issue to see why not.

For those of us with hacked Tivos, this will be an inconveninece but not an insuperable one. We've identified two separate ways of overcoming the problem with hacks - however until they actually make the change its difficult to check which will work! Those with hacked TiVos may lose some EPG data for the smaller radio channels - but i'm not sure how much data those channels have anyway,


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## Captain Scarlet

sanderton said:


> No, read through the threads on this issue to see why not.
> 
> Those with hacked TiVos may lose some EPG data for the smaller radio channels - but i'm not sure how much data those channels have anyway,


Ermmm. None I think is your answer on the EPG data for the minor radio channels. Same reasons as for television channel True Movies on channel 333.

I suppose for now I am in your potential hack using camp although I appreciate that getting cross or being ungrateful about why a Hack won't work is not allowed.  

I like fully functional reliable hacks but am not so keen on those that require constant prodding in order to keep them operational. I know I should write my own but unfortunately I just don't have the relevant mindset.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

blindlemon said:


> Since TiVo are still providing (and accepting monthly subscription fees for) the EPG service, which has to cope with regular changes to the EPG such as the 'normal' addition/removal/renumbering of channels, I don't see that this is really any different.


Blindlemon I am with you 100% in your thinking here. To go on charging £10 per month for a service that no longer works properly is very poor indeed. Especially as the dollar value of that 10 pounds per month has gone up considerably over the last few years. Also they must be earning some interest on all those 200 pounds they have been keeping nicely in a bank account somewhere.   

One reason that Tivo may be planning to do nothing at all is that Tivo Inc may well not realise how unhappy we all are because the jokers at Sky Tivo customer services will probably not have been passing our telephone feedback back to them (their objective after all is actually to make the Tivo service redundant and force us to buy Sky Plus/HD).

That is why I recommended emailing Tivo Inc's senior management, even though Gary and Stuart etc then rather predictably choose to see this as whingeing.


----------



## Ollie

Markj said:


> It would seem that we are nothing more than a loss making pain in the arse for both Tivo and SKY, this would seem to be as good an excuse as any for Tivo to ditch a few more subscribers and coax them over to SKY+.


Does Sky+ have full advance listings for radio channels in the EPG? (Standard Sky doesn't.) If not, then it's not a viable solution to this issue.


----------



## GarySargent

I'd suggest a poll to see how many are actually paying monthly vesus lifetime. I see this "we pay £10" arguament used a lot, but I would be amazed if many people actually do pay £10 per month.

EDIT: Poll created: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=259636


----------



## OzSat

Ollie said:


> Does Sky+ have full advance listings for radio channels in the EPG? (Standard Sky doesn't.) If not, then it's not a viable solution to this issue.


At present, only the now information is available for radio on Sky+ - not even details of the next programme is carried.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

GarySargent said:


> I'd suggest a poll to see how many are actually paying monthly vesus lifetime. I see this "we pay £10" arguament used a lot, but I would be amazed if many people actually do pay £10 per month.
> 
> EDIT: Poll created: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=259636


Gary,

A poll of members of this forum would be meaningless since inevitably we are all the fanatical Tivoites who (a) expected to run our Tivos into the ground and (b) as the kind of people bright/confident enough to open our boxes and change things tend to be somewhat better at maths than Mr and Mrs Average.

It is entirely probable that 80%+ of members of this forum have lifetime subs but equally probable that many people who are non technical and don't ever visit/join this forum still all pay lifetime subs. Also more people may pay monthly than you may realise because the several thousand people who bought an end of line discontinued Tivo were all prepared to pay £99 to £199 for a box to give it a try but wondered how much longer Tivo might operate the UK service. I bit the bullet and paid the lfetime sub after one month and now I am perhaps £95 up compared to subscribing monthly (that is £320 of subs minus around the £25 interest I could have earned in a cash ISA on the £200 in the 30 month interim). But if people didn't do that straight away then having paid £200 in monthly subs it is very difficult to steal yourself to pay £200 for lifetime service. Better you would kid yourself to go on at only £10 per month while half convincing yourself that at least you won't lose out if Tivo UK folds in 3 months time.

From Tivo boxes being sold on ebay (even by previously keen users who have now gone to Sky Plus according to their ads) the evidence is that the majority of Tivo boxes are actually not lifetime subbed. Of course I do realise that anyone who has a lifetime sub is far less likely to sell off their Tivo.

So please don't run a meaningless poll on here about Lifetime Subs with Tivocommunity users. It would really be far more useful to see if Tivo Inc is willing to reveal the actual number of uk monthly subscribers. After all if they only have 3,000 then they would have rather more justification for not being prepared to provide a new software release.

Just as a thought Tivo could offer to sell us the software upgrade for a one off £20. My maths says that on 15,000 boxes (perhaps the number of Tivo Sky Digital users) at £20 each that's £300,000 which ought to cover the development costs. This would work by us being sent a message saying a new software upgrade would be provided if you called customer services to pay for it. Also as we know software downloads do seem to be capable of being made available on a box specific basis.

So whilst accepting that Tivo Inc is not a charity there may in fact be a viable market solution here. After all a Lifetime sub to program data does not necessarily mean a Lifetime sub to software upgrades whichever way you look at it.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

GarySargent said:


> EDIT: Poll created: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=259636


I don't want to incur Gary's wrath but can I suggest that everyone reading this thread who wants to see Tivo update their software to cope with the Sky radio channel number changes votes on Gary's poll to say they have a monthly subbed box (even if they actually have a lifetime sub).

Otherwise Gary is going to use a poll of 25 completely atypical Tivo users as an excuse for Tivo sitting on its hands over this one.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

csansbury said:


> I pay monthly, but I imagine that people who use this forum are far more likely to have a lifetime subscription than in the "real world".


May be but we don't want to vote to say we have a lifetime sub now do we.  

After all Turkeys are rarely to be found casting a vote for an early xmas

So as I said I Pay Monthly.  

By the way this doesn't seem to be a proper forum poll with percentages etc.

Here is the post I made in the thread that led to Gary starting this so called Poll:-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary,

A poll of members of this forum would be meaningless since inevitably we are all the fanatical Tivoites who (a) expected to run our Tivos into the ground and (b) as the kind of people bright/confident enough to open our boxes and change things tend to be somewhat better at maths than Mr and Mrs Average.

It is entirely probable that 80%+ of members of this forum have lifetime subs but equally probable that many people who are non technical and don't ever visit/join this forum still all pay lifetime subs. Also more people may pay monthly than you may realise because the several thousand people who bought an end of line discontinued Tivo were all prepared to pay £99 to £199 for a box to give it a try but wondered how much longer Tivo might operate the UK service. I bit the bullet and paid the lfetime sub after one month and now I am perhaps £95 up compared to subscribing monthly (that is £320 of subs minus around the £25 interest I could have earned in a cash ISA on the £200 in the 30 month interim). But if people didn't do that straight away then having paid £200 in monthly subs it is very difficult to steal yourself to pay £200 for lifetime service. Better you would kid yourself to go on at only £10 per month while half convincing yourself that at least you won't lose out if Tivo UK folds in 3 months time.

From Tivo boxes being sold on ebay (even by previously keen users who have now gone to Sky Plus according to their ads) the evidence is that the majority of Tivo boxes are actually not lifetime subbed. Of course I do realise that anyone who has a lifetime sub is far less likely to sell off their Tivo.

So please don't run a meaningless poll on here about Lifetime Subs with Tivocommunity users. It would really be far more useful to see if Tivo Inc is willing to reveal the actual number of uk monthly subscribers. After all if they only have 3,000 then they would have rather more justification for not being prepared to provide a new software release.

Just as a thought Tivo could offer to sell us the software upgrade for a one off £20. My maths says that on 15,000 boxes (perhaps the number of Tivo Sky Digital users) at £20 each that's £300,000 which ought to cover the development costs. This would work by us being sent a message saying a new software upgrade would be provided if you called customer services to pay for it. Also as we know software downloads do seem to be capable of being made available on a box specific basis.

So whilst accepting that Tivo Inc is not a charity there may in fact be a viable market solution here. After all a Lifetime sub to program data does not necessarily mean a Lifetime sub to software upgrades whichever way you look at it.


----------



## csansbury

Captain Scarlet said:


> May be but we don't want to vote to say we have a lifetime sub now do we.


It shouldn't matter. Those that have paid for a lifetime subscription have done just that, and shouldn't be expecting a lesser service because the money isn't coming out their bank account every month.


----------



## GarySargent

So basically you aren't interested in any evidence, you just want to whinge about the matter as per normal? I've yet to see you add anything of value back to the forum.

The outcome of the poll will in no way affect TiVo's decision on anything as they have the full figures before them! It is for our information only.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

GarySargent said:


> So basically you aren't interested in any evidence, you just want to whinge about the matter as per normal?


Gary,

I'm not in favour of holding a poll amongst a tiny group who will almost certainly be wholly unrepresentative of Tivo users as a whole because of the reasons why they bought a Tivo and when they bought it.

I am in favour of us getting the actual numbers on lifetime subs versus monthly subs from Tivo or Sky if they are willing to disclose the information.

I think your personal attack on me is not very fair. Is this another of those forums where people who make posts that dare to disagree with the views of the forum moderator are excluded. I have never used profanity or 4 letter words. Just expressing an opposite point of view to the Tivo Cognoscenti seems not to be allowed.

I have suggested all uk Tivo users who want the software upgrade could pay for it. Wouldn't it be more valuable to hold a forum poll on user opinion on that issue? Isn't that a valuable suggestion or do you get to decide what is valuable and what isn't?

I also have provided quite a lot of data on how a Tivo with 500gb hard drive and 690 recordings behaves. Isn't that valuable to other forum users who might want to do a big hard drive upgrade.

I'm sorry that I haven't yet developed any of my own Tivo hacks. Is that now a pre-requisite for membership of this forum?


----------



## iankb

Has a poll ever been run to find out many people actually record the radio channels?  Though I hate to be thought of as normal, I never (intentionally) record the radio channels, and I wonder how strong the £10/month lobby is when reduced to just those who do.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

Ian_m said:


> I thought TiVo once stated in early testing of 2.5.5 (2001 ??) that in the UK it was 60% lifetime and 40% monthly, the opposite of what they had in the States.


It looks like my suggestion of 7,000 paying monthly subscribers is a reasonable one then. As the uk sub costs more than it does in the USA and so uk lifetime is better value its hardly surprising more people have gone for it. My expectation would be that 95% of people who don't go lifetime in the first 6 months never go lifetime.

Of course more people with pay monthly subs are likely to discontinue using their Tivo boxes due to the high ongoing costs.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

iankb said:


> Has a poll ever been run to find out many people actually record the radio channels? Though I hate to be thought of as normal, I never (intentionally) record the radio channels, and I wonder how strong the £10/month lobby is when reduced to just those who do.


I record a far, far smaller number of radio programs than tv programs (as in 1:30 or something) but for those that I do want to record it is a very useful feature (the recent Hitchhikers Guide to the Glaxy radio run being a case in point).

I have a Roberts RD1 DAB radio but its so called recording facilities are to be frank utterly useless as they are restricted to only storing one recording and are totally unreliable for that one recording.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

csansbury said:


> It shouldn't matter. Those that have paid for a lifetime subscription have done just that, and shouldn't be expecting a lesser service because the money isn't coming out their bank account every month.


Gary, Stuart and also Tivo's argument is that this does matter because if enough people aren't paying a monthly sub it isn't a commercially viable proposition to update the software, as there isn't the revenue stream to support it. Hence my suggestion that we could pay for the software upgrade if necessary.

Anyone who paid £200 for a lifetime sub in late 2000 has only been paying Tivo £3.50 a month at this point in time (declining by the month) and the £200 lump sum has long ago been spent by Tivo.


----------



## GarySargent

I've split out this discussion thread from the thread that was originally being used to try and solve the technical problems 4 digit channels bring via a hack. That thread is here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=233080

Lets keep the discussion and technical matters separated so the threads make more sense. I've split the original thread as best I could.

I've also moved the discussion in the poll thread that should be in this one - please keep threads on topic. The poll is just a general poll, and we can infer things in here about it with regards to the 4 digit issue.


----------



## sanderton

Captain Scarlet said:


> I'm not in favour of holding a poll amongst a tiny group who will almost certainly be wholly unrepresentative of Tivo users as a whole ...
> 
> ... Wouldn't it be more valuable to hold a forum poll on user opinion on that issue?


Make up your mind! 

Anyone can create a poll BTW, so go ahead!



> I think your personal attack on me is not very fair. Is this another of those forums where people who make posts that dare to disagree with the views of the forum moderator are excluded.


Since you set out to "sabotage" a poll Gary had set up, I think he's been exceedingly restrained!


----------



## mjk

iankb said:


> Has a poll ever been run to find out many people actually record the radio channels? Though I hate to be thought of as normal, I never (intentionally) record the radio channels, and I wonder how strong the £10/month lobby is when reduced to just those who do.


One of my TiVos (the unexpanded one) is pretty much dedicated to solely recording radio. If you turn the video bit rate for Basic Mode right down, a 40Mb TiVo can record a LOT of audio.


----------



## Raisltin Majere

Captain Scarlet said:


> as the kind of people bright/confident enough to open our boxes and change things tend to be somewhat better at maths than Mr and Mrs Average.


What a truly arrogant, elitist person you are. I don't think it's a question of intelligence or mathematical ability to follow a list of instructions to change a drive or add a hack. Or to come here and ask questions from the real experts.

I don't have the knowledge to do any of these things on my own and am eternally grateful to the members of this forum who are always willing to help. But I don't pretend I'm as knowledgable on *this* subject as them just because I can follow their advice.


----------



## Andy Leitch

iankb said:


> Has a poll ever been run to find out many people actually record the radio channels? Though I hate to be thought of as normal, I never (intentionally) record the radio channels, and I wonder how strong the £10/month lobby is when reduced to just those who do.


I reckon about 40% of my recordings are radio, the majority being Radio 4.

I can't use the Listen Again service from the BBC website, as programmes are only stored there for seven days and due to my job, when I'm away I have no web access.

There is no mention in the TiVo handbook nor on the website, that they operate a two-tier service....with radio treated as an after-thought. I fully expect, as a monthly paying customer, to have a fully functioning box until the day I decide to cancel.


----------



## xxxx

Captain Scarlet said:


> Just as a thought Tivo could offer to sell us the software upgrade for a one off £20


I've said this here already but there seems to be some sort of selective optical bug doing the rounds.

I get free totally updates when needed for my Sky digibox, my set-top DVD player, my ADSL router, my MP3 player, my Showcenter, my WindowsXP, my various bits of software on my PC and also for other similar devices. I pay no sort of subscription to use any of these and some of them are well over 5 years old. Why should Tivo not provide free software updates for a device that is barely 3 years old and for which I have paid a hefty subscription fee along with a purchase cost?

It is Tivo's duty and responsibility to keep their software up to date, just as it is their duty to ensure that EPG data is accurate. They should act accordingly and there should be no question at all of any payment being made for this.


----------



## JonMace

xxxx said:


> I've said this here already but there seems to be some sort of selective optical bug doing the rounds.
> 
> I get free totally updates when needed for my Sky digibox, my set-top DVD player, my ADSL router, my MP3 player, my Showcenter, my WindowsXP, my various bits of software on my PC and also for other similar devices. I pay no sort of subscription to use any of these and some of them are well over 5 years old. Why should Tivo not provide free software updates for a device that is barely 3 years old and for which I have paid a hefty subscription fee along with a purchase cost?
> 
> It is Tivo's duty and responsibility to keep their software up to date, just as it is their duty to ensure that EPG data is accurate. They should act accordingly and there should be no question at all of any payment being made for this.


Not true you will get no updates on Win98 for example. Do you also expect Tivo to provide a free update to work with Sky HD? Tivo has not changed the source of your programmes has - hardly Tivo's fault.

Basically unfortunantly I now think that the days of Tivo S1 use are very numbered, this is a fact of life for all CE devises these days, Analogue TVs will soon be obsolete, SD equipment the same. You buy your equipment enjoy it and when its obsolete replace it with something better.

I know that some of you are paying a monthly sub and therefore think that Tivo should pay the thousands of pounds of development that would be need to fix this problem in a commercial way, but I don't think it is going to happen. The simple answer is if the service is no longer fitting your needs don't pay it. For those of you that paid the life time sub, well we have had a good run of it


----------



## sanderton

TiVo is five years old now, not three.

And TiVo did not originally have EPG based recording of radio, it was added some time later - I can't now remember if you could do manual recordings or not under 1.5.x!

While I think TiVo _should_ provide a fix to solve this problem, I will not be at all surprised if they don't. To date they've been very good at providing fixes where an easy one is available (eg 2.5.5a), or it can be done in the database without altering the software(eg, having Freeview and Sky together). However this is a very different beast, requiring both substantial changes to the software and additional data in the EPG to fix properly.


----------



## iankb

xxxx said:


> I get free totally updates when needed for my Sky digibox, my set-top DVD player, my ADSL router, my MP3 player, my Showcenter, my WindowsXP, my various bits of software on my PC and also for other similar devices.


And, if you have one, did you get an update to your new Sony TV to cope with 'in-spec' Teletext updates from your TiVo.

Will you get firmware updates for your DVD recorder that allows them to play MP3 CD's, or record High-Definition programme sources, where that wasn't included in the original functionality.

Most free updates are bug fixes, and not the addition of functionality.

Also, there are an increasing number of software packages (e.g. Norton Internet Security, Window Washer, etc) that expect you to replace them annually, at a hefty upgrade price, to be able to keep them up-to-date with the latest changes.


----------



## xxxx

JonMace said:


> Not true you will get no updates on Win98 for example. Do you also expect Tivo to provide a free update to work with Sky HD? Tivo has not changed the source of your programmes has - hardly Tivo's fault.


Win98 is 8 years old, not 5. Did I mention Win98? And in any case free updates are still available for Win98.
My DVD player gets updates to work with new Divx codecs. My MP3 player gets updates to work with Windows DRM. My ADSL router just got an update to make it ADSL2 compatible. All of these are free yet all are needed due to outside influences.


----------



## xxxx

sanderton said:


> TiVo is five years old now, not three.


My Tivo is 2 years 11 months old, not 5. I count from the time it and the subcription were purchased.


----------



## xxxx

iankb said:


> And, if you have one, did you get an update to your new Sony TV to cope with 'in-spec' Teletext updates from your TiVo.
> Will you get firmware updates for your DVD recorder that allows them to play MP3 CD's, or record High-Definition programme sources, where that wasn't included in the original functionality.
> Most free updates are bug fixes, and not the addition of functionality.


My Sony TV does not have user flashable firmware therefore the question does not apply. I'm stuck with what it does. I would add that the only problem with teletext arises with the Tivo output, not with any teletext signal from broadcasters, which leads me to think the problem is in fact with the Tivo and not in the TV. Given that teletext on DSAT has pretty much vanished the question applies even less.

The other devices I mentioned do have flashable firmware and all of them have received free updates to increase functionality over and above the original spec (Divx, XVid and WMA codecs, DRM, ADSL2+). They have also received bugfixes: for example to play certain types of DVD with unusual authoring, or to improve firewall functions or wifi sync.

All those updates have been completely free of charge and have been delivered promptly. I expect no less from Tivo and for them to deliver less would reflect badly one them.
I don't expect bizarre no-name brands to give me regular updates either, and that's why I don't buy bizarre no-name brands. If I buy a brand-name I expect brand-name service. Brand names that give poor service go to the wall.


----------



## GarySargent

I think the analogy is slightly blurred, as this isn't a defect with TiVo, but an incompatibility between two boxes. An incompatibility caused by Sky I might add.


----------



## Andy Leitch

TiVo will have to release a software update....they will be legally forced to.

Either they fix the four digit problem or they will have to release an update to remove the 'as recommended by Sky Digital' from the opening TiVo slide screen.

If a product bearing that is not 100% compatible with Sky SD, they are probably breaking several conditions in the contract they have with Sky.

Not least, they may even be breaking the Sale Of Goods Act, especially the 'Fit for the purpose' clause.

'Fit for purpose' covers not only the obvious purpose of an item but any purpose you queried and were given assurances about by the trader.

If the digit problem is not fixed, the product is not fit for the purpose of recording programmes from Sky Digital....a product which has the 'as recommended by Sky Digital' text.



>  For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).


Does this mean damages in replacing TiVo with a PVR that does work with the new four digit channels??

Maybe someone should remind TiVo, (and Sky too)....that little piece of text is still there.


----------



## OzSat

The "recommended by Sky' bit was dropped years ago and so I suspect no contract exists.

The opening title bit remains as it would be too difficult to remove efficiently.

The 'recommended by Sky' bit used to be there all the time.


----------



## Andy Leitch

ozsat said:


> The "recommended by Sky' bit was dropped years ago and so I suspect no contract exists.
> 
> The opening title bit remains as it would be too difficult to remove efficiently.


I don't think the courts would see it that way.

TiVo would have to remove it....it's copyright infringement. They are making claims and using someone else's trademark, in making a false statement.


----------



## GarySargent

TiVo does not work with Box Office channels either. This arguament doesn't stand up.

On release they didn't support radio channels - there was no guide data for them.


----------



## sanderton

My cornflakes are "as recommended" by the Queen. Do you think I could return them if she stopped eating them?

My TiVo's box says it will work with OnDigital - should I sue?

As TiVo out of the box does not support radio recording, I doubt it would have been considered a "purpose" of the machine. but even if it was, the damages referred to in the consumer protection legislation are moderated by age and the use you have had out of the device. After five years use of a consumer electronics device, it's unlikely that a court would consider there was much "unexpired" value in a TiVo. and of course your claime would be against teh retailer you bought it from, not TiVo.

Incidentally, you used to be able to play that opening animation at any time from the remote; that was removed at the same time as "recommended by Sky" was taken off Now Playing. Presumably these things are connected.


----------



## iankb

Andy Leitch said:


> TiVo will have to release a software update....they will be legally forced to.


If you were right, technological advancement would be set back a decade. No manufacturer would dare release a product until it has been tested for many, many years, and each user would be forced to sign a 200-page document that states what the liability of the manufacturer is limited to. Lucky enough, you're not right.

Now your TiVo is out of warranty, they are not obliged to fix it if your internal tuner packs up. The control of a Sky digibox is an optional extra and, if the Sky service packed up, I doubt that it could be treated any differently. Did you expect OnDigital to continue their service because they were legally obliged to?


----------



## Andy Leitch

sanderton said:


> My cornflakes are "as recommended" by the Queen. Do you think I could return them if she stopped eating them?


The 'By Royal Appointment' hallmark can be withdrawn at anytime if any product bearing it is seen to be tarnishing the image of The Royal Household.
To use it without Royal permission is copyright infringement.
Maybe I should use the TiVo trademark and make false claims.

Also, what impact will this have on used values of TiVo??

Any person selling a TiVo will have to declare, (and I have ebay in mind here), that it is not fully compatible with Sky Digital. The FAQ on the TiVo Portal, will also have to be updated to reflect this.


----------



## OzSat

Andy Leitch said:


> I don't think the courts would see it that way.
> 
> TiVo would have to remove it....it's copyright infringement. They are making claims and using someone else's trademark, in making a false statement.


If Sky has given them permission then where is the infringement?


----------



## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> TiVo does not work with Box Office channels either. This arguament doesn't stand up.
> 
> On release they didn't support radio channels - there was no guide data for them.


I believe that the UK is the only territory with radio listings on TiVo.


----------



## GarySargent

Andy Leitch said:


> The FAQ on the TiVo Portal, will also have to be updated to reflect this.


Sue me!


----------



## sanderton

Gary's point is the key one; TiVo has *never* worked with *all* channels on Sky, nor has it claimed to. It doesn't work with Box Office and it doesn't work on the porn channels. The manual or box make no claims about radio compatibility. "As recommended by" does not mean "guaranteed 100% compatibility with".

The hyper-legal approach to this is not a direction which will bear any fruit.

TiVo can add to or take away from the services its EPG provides at any time - your recourse is to cancel your sub. All of us have owned our TiVos long enough, and had enough valuable use out of them, that any claim for a refund or part refund on the purchase price would be laughed out of the small claims court.


----------



## thechachman

Well given we 'lifetime subbed' one less than eight months ago, in isolation that one box might be a different situation, but otherwise think you are spot on in all your thoughts (unfortunately)

I also don't think that blustering/posturing is the way to approach this ...


----------



## Ian_m

A thought.

Couldn't someone produce a "dongle", much like the NTL dongle thing, that took the TiVo IR lead in and produced new Sky software compatable IR. It would look for a radio station being asked for by the TiVo and retransmit with the required leading zero.

I am sure someone with 8051 (or equivalent) programming experience could knock something up ?


----------



## GarySargent

Ian_m said:


> A thought.
> 
> Couldn't someone produce a "dongle", much like the NTL dongle thing, that took the TiVo IR lead in and produced new Sky software compatable IR. It would look for a radio station being asked for by the TiVo and retransmit with the required leading zero.
> 
> I am sure someone with 8051 (or equivalent) programming experience could knock something up ?


I had thought of that but it would mean buffering the whole IR signal so you can detect the channel number, so would drastically slow down channel changes.


----------



## Ian_m

GarySargent said:


> I had thought of that but it would mean buffering the whole IR signal so you can detect the channel number, so would drastically slow down channel changes.


Does speed matter ? as long as a channel change occured in say under 10-20 seconds. If you want high speed channel surfing, to press AUX on TiVo and use the Sky remote.


----------



## mesaka

I agree speed would not matter to me - I use the excellent endpad and if the delay was very long I would just change my default 2 minutes start padding to 3 :up:


----------



## xxxx

GarySargent said:


> ...buffering the whole IR signal so you can detect the channel number, so would drastically slow down channel changes.


No big deal. I bet the Sky-Eye chap is thinking about it now.


----------



## richard plumb

can I check something?

If I only record TV, does this affect me?

I sometimes listen to Radio 2 or classic FM on TV, but I suppose I can just use the sky remote to switch over. Perhaps switch Tivo over to a channel I never record to make sure it switches over for any upcoming recordings

That'd be a workaround, right?


----------



## programx

I for one would be happy not to receive radio channels!

I speak from the bitterness of seeing TiVo cancel its ITV recording of F1 in favour of the Radio 5 coverage. Gaaahh!!

Oh well, Kimi is the true world champion, anyway  Thats it for F1 for this year.

Personally, I pay my £10 and I am happy to. I am aware it will be for little longer, but I have three valuable years out of it (and I was only expecting one having read the negative feedback on here) and have - unfortunately - yet to see a product that comes close to maintaining my higher quality of life as a result.

£10 a month for poorly supported channels, but the freedom it gives to my evenings? I'd put it in TiVo's execs pockets myself if I could.


----------



## Andy Leitch

programx said:


> I speak from the bitterness of seeing TiVo cancel its ITV recording of F1 in favour of the Radio 5 coverage. Gaaahh!!


How'd you manage that then?

My SP/wishlist for Five Live Formula One hasn't recorded anything in over a year.

I've reported it previously but it seems that Tribune operate a two-tier system and only TV listings seem to matter.


----------



## mrtickle

I noticed that the radio 5 coverage of qualifying was in the same Season Pass as the ITV series. Quite strange but for you to miss the TV showing the guide data would have to be wrong (with same Ep IDs for TV and Radio) AND you'd have to have the radio series above the TV series in the SP manager. Ie you'd've previously indicated to TiVo that you wanted radio first in the event of a clash!

(ok not quite true - if another TV programme clashed with TV F1 then the radio SP would then get the chance to step in and get used - but in that scenario without the radio series you'd've got no F1 at all).


----------



## mrtickle

Just seen this posted to uk.tech.tv.sky . No source was given but I haven't a reason to doubt it.



> EPG reshuffle postponed until January
> 
> Updated at 11:07 PM on November 6, 2005
> 
> The EPG reshuffle which was expected to take place later this month has
> been put back until January 2006.
> 
> In an email sent to broadcasters Sky have stated that the reshuffle will not
> take place until after the 16th of January.
> 
> It is unclear as to why the reshuffle has been postponed although sources
> suggest that the new EPG software (version 4) update is taking longer than
> anticiapted. This needs to be in place before the EPG reshuffle as two new
> genres will be added to the Sky Guide. The two new categories will be
> "Lifestyle and Culture" & "Gaming and Dating".
> 
> The EPG software update is expected to be rolled out from end of this month.


This means they won't rearrange the radio channels either until next year.


----------



## kitschcamp

At a guess a chance of a major muck up in the run up to Christmas, when they have major competition from Freeview now, and a promise of 8m subscribers by Christmas may have told them to wait till the new year...


----------



## Automan

Perhaps Sky have decided to go to full four digit channel numbers in one step rather than two?

Stage 1 was to permit devices to at least record TV programs e.g. Philips DVD Recorders with Guide+ and Tivo.

By next year all vendors would have time to update (where possible) their products to handle four digit channels.

Just a guess of course.

Automan.


----------



## steveroe

From sky digital online



> Sky have finally lifted the lid on the new EPG version 4 software download date - the downloads start next week.
> 
> A Sky spokesperson has exclusively confirmed to Sky Digi Online that EPG version 4 software will download "next week into some boxes" and will then take "approx 2 weeks thereafter to complete."
> 
> The Sky spokesperson confirmed that the download will include the "new 2-page EPG" suggesting that the EPG version 4 software will be downloaded before the EPG reshuffle.
> 
> Our sources now indicate that the EPG reshuffle will happen after the 28th February as broadcasters will be given at least 30 days to advertise their new EPG positions.
> 
> The EPG reshuffle was delayed from last November due to a few hitches with the new version 4 software.
> 
> The EPG, which has remained unchanged since Sky's launch in 1998 will include two new genres as part of Sky's EPG version 4 software download to accommodate the vast number of dating and lifestyle channels. The two new categories will be "Lifestyle and Culture" & "Gaming and Dating".
> 
> A Sky spokesman has previously stated: "These enhancements are designed to assist Sky to meet continued demand for EPG slots. Better signposting will help make it easier for viewers to find the programme and channels that they want to watch."
> 
> Updated 15:25 - 12/01/06


This will introduce 4 digit radio channels, see here for a list

I've got a bit lost about where we are with this, has a viable fix/workaround been produced?


----------



## GarySargent

Current situation as far as TiVo is concerned...

TiVo can setup a dual channel platform that has the radio channels on a second tuner via RF, and which has IR codes that prepend a zero. Requires going through guided setup to change the setup. This is running on one of my TiVo's now but is only as a test - doesn't have a proper radio lineup. Still it proves it works.

I have an unofficial BASH shell hack which then converts this second tuner from pointing to the SCART instead of the RF tuner, so you can then record radio channels in stereo.

Only issue is the TiVo guide will list the channels like this:

101 BBC1
101 BBCRadio1
102 BBC2
102 BBCRadio2
103 ITV
103 BBCRadio3
etc

Pressing channel up from BBC1 goes to Radio1 not BBC2.


----------



## b166er

GarySargent said:


> Current situation as far as TiVo is concerned...


Am I right in thinking that it only affects TiVo users in so much as we aren't able to change to, or set a recording for a radio channel? All regular TV operation will remain unaffected ?


----------



## OzSat

It will not alter tv oeration - and the addition of the radio channels is optional.

There is a working system on test - but nothing will go live until the EPG changes which are still at least six weeks away.


----------



## Ollie

GarySargent said:


> Current situation as far as TiVo is concerned...
> 
> TiVo can setup a dual channel platform that has the radio channels on a second tuner via RF, and which has IR codes that prepend a zero. Requires going through guided setup to change the setup. This is running on one of my TiVo's now but is only as a test - doesn't have a proper radio lineup. Still it proves it works.


How does that work, please? My TiVo will only let me select Sky for one input; the other one has to be NTL, FreeView, or HomeChoice.


----------



## sanderton

The option doesn't exist yet.


----------



## GarySargent

Actually it does, you just don't know how to access it 

The plan is to make it available to all just before Sky make the change to their channel line up.


----------



## sfalvey

So if the work around is to pretend you have 2 sources 1 -Sky Tv. 2 - Sky Radio then I guess that means that if you currently have Sky+Freeview then you you are out of luck.

Sky + Freeview wont be a supported config if you have Sky radio enabled as well correct????

I can see a time when we get TV channels ending up in the 1xxx range which will mean this work around wont extend if as I suspect it would require yet another program source to send the '1' before the channel number.

Come on how about a real fix to the problem! :down: :down: :down:


----------



## mini__me

TiVo already supports 1xxx channels but not with a leading 0!

Does this new work around have anything to do with the 'Sat' that has appeared at channel 10 in the guide?

That seems to send 010 then 10 a few seconds later IIRC from last afternoon...


----------



## sfalvey

No it doesn't. It supports 3 digit channels only 1xxx implies 4 digits.


----------



## GarySargent

TiVo does support four digit channels, and channel numbers between 1000 and 9999 will work just fine.

It is specifically four-digit channel numbers which start with a zero that cause a problem.


----------



## OzSat

mini__me said:


> Does this new work around have anything to do with the 'Sat' that has appeared at channel 10 in the guide?
> 
> That seems to send 010 then 10 a few seconds later IIRC from last afternoon...


Nothing to do with it - it looks as if you have set up a manual channel 10 on the SCART.


----------



## mini__me

I don't remember doing that....when I get home I'll check out my boxes to see if it's on them all....

Interesting that it does a distinct 010 then waits at least 10 seconds and then 10...from memory.....I'll post later extactly what it does!

It's doing this on the sky box it does not attempt to do it through the internal tuner, btw.


----------



## bradleyem

Well, it's confirmed now (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds28385.html) for the 28th Feb, including the 4 digit radio channels. Are we all set to go, or do I book Sky+ for 27th?

As an aside, some of the channel numberings are a bit disappointing - channels like More4 and More4+1 and UKG2 and UKG2+1 still aren't next to each other, and there's few gaps between the channels for additions.


----------



## JudyB

bradleyem said:


> Well, it's confirmed now (<digital spy link>) for the 28th Feb, including the 4 digit radio channels. Are we all set to go, or do I book Sky+ for 27th?


I'm confused. Will this really help very much or does the Sky+ EPG contain better listings data than the Sky EPG?

Unless I'm missing something the EPG changes will only affect your ability to record, or change channel to, the radio channels. The last time I looked, the Sky EPG data for Radio 4 was virtually non-existent - only showing the current programme. If the Sky+ EPG has the same issues, doesn't that mean that you still won't be able to set up recordings for the radio channels?

P.S. I had to edit out the link from your post due to the spam-abuse restrictions imposed on me...


----------



## OzSat

Sky+ EPG is non-existant for radio.

The Now & Next banner only carries the 'now' programme.


----------



## ALanJay

If you haven't seen the EPG reshuffle is scheduled for the 28th February:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds28385.html

and for the full line up:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds28384.html

Including at the bottom all the radio channels.Radio
0101 BBC R1
0102 BBC R2
0103 BBC R3
0104 BBC R4 FM
0105 BBC R5 Live
0106 Classic FM
0107 Virgin Radio
0108 talkSPORT
etc


----------



## GarySargent

TiVo are aware of the date and have plans.

Aside from the radio channel issue, all the channel changes are likely to cause mayhem timing wise - ie getting the Sky and TiVo channel listing matching at the same time. I'd advise being at home on that day!


----------



## OzSat

A list has been provided for TiVo to use - and it has more channels in it than those listed on the links 

The best option on that day will be to stop your TiVo performing a daily call until the changes have happened on the set-top-box.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

programx said:


> I speak from the bitterness of seeing TiVo cancel its ITV recording of F1 in favour of the Radio 5 coverage. Gaaahh!!.


This should be avoided if you record Formula One Racing as an ITV Season Pass and have it at the top of your Season Pass list ahead of any Keyword Wishlist search passes for Formula One or Formula 1 etc. Of course if Tribune mess up the channel related Season Pass then you are Stuffed.

Of course if you only have a Title Wishlist seach for Formula One Racing and no Channel based Season Pass then it could all get very messy depending what program name or description Five Live use? If a Keyword matches two programs showing at the same time does Tivo give priority to the lower or higher numbered channel or to the program with the highest thumbs rating? Or does it just go for the program that starts the earliest in the clash sequence?

Of course deselecting Radio Five Live as an active channel in your configuration would overcome most of the potential hazards. Personally speaking I only ever record Radio stuff from Radio 4. Which reminds me to now go and deactivate Radio 5 Live in my box setup.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

ozsat said:


> Sky+ EPG is non-existant for radio.
> 
> The Now & Next banner only carries the 'now' programme.


But the Tivo EPG for Radio 4 has 7 days worth of programs or more.  And its using Tivo to record radio we are talking about here.

Is there any reason why Tivo's solution couldn't support a triple platform option so that we could have a Sky tv and Sky radio platform and a Freeview platform? The issue I have is that channels like E4, More 4,UK History, UK Bright Ideas, and FTN are only FTA on Freeview and not on my Freesat Digibox.

Why not record the radio off the Freeview box I hear you all say. Answer because BBC Radio 1 to 4 is on the SDN multiplex and my Freeview box frequently has trouble with a weak signal knocking out SDN even though it is fine with the other five multiplexes.


----------



## scoopuk

sfalvey said:


> So if the work around is to pretend you have 2 sources 1 -Sky Tv. 2 - Sky Radio then I guess that means that if you currently have Sky+Freeview then you you are out of luck.
> 
> Sky + Freeview wont be a supported config if you have Sky radio enabled as well correct????
> Come on how about a real fix to the problem! :down: :down: :down:


Hang on a sec, can't you get the required radio channels from Freeview anyway ?

Surely if you have a Sky & Freeview set up, you just start recording your Radio 4 etc progs off Freeview instead. Obviously Freeview's radio channel list is smaller than Sky's but it does include the national BBC, EMAP & GMG stations.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

See my post above your message which you obviously didn't either read or understand. If you don't own a Freeview box perhaps you don't realise that not all channel reception on a Freeview box is equally robust. Also those of you with enormous bank balances who don't mind paying Sky £40 a month won't understand this argument.



> *Answer because BBC Radio 1 to 4 is on the SDN multiplex and my Freeview box frequently has trouble with a weak signal knocking out SDN even though it is fine with the other five multiplexes*.


----------



## GarySargent

These are pretty obscure setups / circumstances. I'd advise getting an aerial upgrade so you can properly receive the SDN multiplex.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

GarySargent said:


> These are pretty obscure setups / circumstances. I'd advise getting an aerial upgrade so you can properly receive the SDN multiplex.


Gary,

I don't agree that having problems receiving one of the 6 Freeview multiplexes but not all the others is in any way an obscure or unusual circumstance. Freeview only covers around 75% of the uk population on anything like a full basis and the other 25% only have partial coverage or no coverage. Also whether you get the full service will depend not just on where you live but on the Freeview box you buy as some boxes like the Sony and Netgem/BT IPlayer+ (which also has a Sony Supplied tuner) have a far better ability to receive channels in more marginal areas.

As to upgrading the existing tv ariel I have investigated this on my mother's detached freehold house in Bucks near Stoke Poges where she just cannot get reliable reception of the C3/4 multiplex as opposed to SDN at my address (see its not an unusual situation as I am 32 miles south of Cental London and she is about 24 miles west of central London but both of us are on the edges of the Crystal Palace transmitter footprint) but aerial contractors are quoting around £200 to fit a wideband aerial on a long pole to get above the tree line. But for £99 up front + £19 first months subscription (after which you can desubscribe) you can have a full Sky Digibox system installed on their new Month by Month package. Or you can go for Sky Freesat at £150 but that seems a less good deal as to then watch Sky subscription channels you then have to sign up for at least one year worth of two Sky Mixes at £15 a month on top. Also Broadband tv is now imminent although as my mother is 2.5 miles from the exchange and only used to be thought suitable for a 512k broadband service (now increased to 1MB since the distance rules changed) I don't know whether that will be aviable option.

As to improving the aerial where I live it is a communla areial and since the management company installed a Sky point in each flat at a cost of £350 each in April they refuse to spend anything on the analogue aerial as they maintain we can all get perfect reception noe provided we go for Freesat or subscription Sky on top of the £350 just for the Sky Point. Severe nashing of teeth at this point as since November 2005 Sky Homes will now install a Free Shared Dish (FSD) communal Sky dish system that unlike our system also has Sky Plus cabling in any self run small block of flats so long as 25% of home owners sign up to a minimum £15 a month Sky Package - see www.skyhomes.co.uk/page.aspx?pageId=22)

But to summarise if you can't get all Freeview channels on your current aerial and are in a heavily tree surrounded area you either have to spend an uneconomic £200+ on a better aerial (if your aerial is on a pitched roof and contractors therefore want danger money) or wait till Freeview signal increases at digita switchover from 2008 to 2012 depending where you live or you get Sky or you go for broadband tv once it launches later this year.

Of course I am happy to hear the opinions of others as to whether they also have problems receiving just one or two of the six Freeview multiplexes. Naturally if you live in a town centre Gary you will be unaware of these marginal Freeview reception issues.


----------



## OzSat

The way DTT is setup at present will mean that many areas will have different signal strengths between muxes - this will be the case until analogue is switched off.

Although not the norm, I would agree that it is not uncommon for viewers to have problems with 1 or more muxes - even if they have perfect BBC-tv and ITV reception.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

ozsat said:


> Although not the norm, I would agree that it is not uncommon for viewers to have problems with 1 or more muxes - even if they have perfect BBC-tv and ITV reception.


Thanks for the confirmation on this issue Ozsat. Those who live in town centres and not Surrey true rural village are apparently unaware of how those of us living out of town but not in the Scottish highlands or Snowdonia still receive a second class communications service. Of course I don't where Gary lives though.

For instance we only got broadband on my local exchange in May 2004 over 4 years later than Dorking 7 miles north of it was enabled. Despite around 1,900 phone lines BT begrudged the cost of having to add a fibre optic 7 miles cable to their 1950s/60s copper wire trunk. Eventually though BT did stump up the cost and it was not paid for by an RDA or the County Council. The neighbouring exchange to me Forest Green with 250 lines are not so lucky. They are still not ADSL enabled although Surrey County Council did finally advertise a tender at the end of 2005 that has some kind of EU funding support behind it. Looks like its still going to take months yet before it gets done.

It still remains to be seen whether the DTT network will have as widespread coverage as the analogue one presently does at the point of digital switchover. I am somewhat sceptical that it will do.


----------



## =CM=

Captain Scarlet said:


> It still remains to be seen whether the DTT network will have as widespread coverage as the analogue one presently does at the point of digital switchover. I am somewhat sceptical that it will do.


It is likely to have better coverage, with use of single frequency networks using higher power transmitters for 3 of the muxes (so called public ones). By 2012 there might be a push to mpeg4 too, and changeover dates will be a headache for more than just Tivo. Digital pics can survive well in rugged areas on less power. Whether there'll be anything worth watching is a different issue.


----------



## GarySargent

Please lets keep this thread on topic and not start discussing Freeview signal qualities!

I'm not suggesting bad Freeview reception is uncommon, but a TiVo Freesat+Freeview setup where you want to record radio from the Freesat part is pretty uncommon. Most people have one or the other, not both, and of those that do have both most of them would be able to use the Freeview side to record radio. A second TiVo from eBay would solve the problem.

I can tell you know TiVo aren't going to update their software to support Sky Radio channels, so if you don't like the fix that is coming then you'll need to contact TiVo directly and whinge.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

GarySargent said:


> Please lets keep this thread on topic and not start discussing Freeview signal qualities!


My earlier post was on topic asking if there was going to be a 3 platform option supporting the split of the Sky Digibox radio and tv channels on to 2 platforms for those of use who currently use the dual Sky Digibox and Freeview box option.

You then took issue with this request by claiming that my need for such a requirement due to poor Freeview reception on the SDN multiplex providing BBC R1 to R4 on Freeview was very exceptional. I was then forced to defend the fact that this was not exceptional. Ozsat your fellow uk moderator then responded to in significant part confirm my views.

There has been no thread drift. All the discussion relates to whether or not it is reasonable to continue to expect dual platform Sky Digibox and Freeview box or Sky Digibox and Cable box support after full support for a Sky Digibox and its radio and tv channels will count as two separate platforms. Were we to start discussing whether E4 has any worthwhile programs to watch that would be severe thread drift and you would have every right to clamp down on it.


----------



## b166er

GarySargent said:


> TiVo does support four digit channels, and channel numbers between 1000 and 9999 will work just fine. It is specifically four-digit channel numbers which start with a zero that cause a problem.


Can't help wondering whether the Sky team who devised this new radio scheme had a good chuckle when they realized that TiVo wouldn't have an easy time with the change. I can imagine a call by them to the Sky+ marketing dept. that went something like "hey, you know what's gonna be great about this change?"

[quietly happy I don't record any radio shows now that they're mostly all available for playback online or as podcasts]


----------



## Captain Scarlet

b166er said:


> quietly happy I don't record any radio shows now that they're mostly all available for playback online or as podcasts


If forced to choose I may have to go for Sky Digibox television channels (but no radio) and Freeview option once the split happens. As you say the BBCR4 online archive does provide an alternative but I would forget the progam was there in time before the end of the 7 days in many cases.


----------



## b166er

Captain Scarlet said:


> I would forget the progam was there in time before the end of the 7 days in many cases.


I have recurring items in my outlook calendar to remind me. Playing them back in the car or at the gym via mp3 player seems more appealing than from the TV anyway. Sorry if it's a little bit OT and not focusing on finding the real solution Gary.


----------



## GarySargent

Captain Scarlet said:


> You then took issue with this request by claiming that my need for such a requirement due to poor Freeview reception on the SDN multiplex providing BBC R1 to R4 on Freeview was very exceptional.


I didn't take issue at all, just suggested a workaround as I know TiVo are not going to do a software update, which is ultimately what is required to fully support the changes Sky have made to their channel line-up. There is no reason for you to go on the offensive here - we're all trying to solve a problem Sky have introduced.


----------



## ndunlavey

b166er said:


> [quietly happy I don't record any radio shows now that they're mostly all available for playback online or as podcasts]


They are?


----------



## sanderton

BBC podcasts:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/downloadtrial/subscribe.shtml

BBC online playback:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/index.shtml?button


----------



## Ollie

GarySargent said:


> I'm not suggesting bad Freeview reception is uncommon, but a TiVo Freesat+Freeview setup where you want to record radio from the Freesat part is pretty uncommon.


I wouldn't have thought it that uncommon, given that quite a few of the radio channels on Freesat are not available on Freeview.


----------



## daveh

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but why can't Tivo add 101 102 103 104 etc (Radio 1 to 4 etc) to the existing list of channels of which there already seem to be many different instances BBC1WEST BBC1WSM for 101 etc. Then people who prefer to continue using 101 for Sky BBC1 TV can do so, but others can use BBCRadio1101(for instance) to select radio 1 (whereby 0101 is entered by TIVO). This would then leave the second input source, be it Freeview or analogue available for selecting the TV channels affected.
I personally only want to find out if Caroline manages to buy Grey Gables and if Tom can sell his posh nosh.


----------



## ndunlavey

sanderton said:


> BBC podcasts:
> BBC online playback:


That online playback page seems to be for live broadcasts, but yes - I'm aware that most of what I listen to on Radio 4 and BBC 7 is available to listen to for up to a week. That is, though, a pretty limited window compared with having it indefinitely on TiVo (and copying it to CD for more more flexible listening is a chore). I'm not aware of any other broadcasters making most of their content available online for later listening at all.


----------



## GarySargent

Sky require remote code entry "0101" to get to say Radio 1 not "101". The current TiVo software does not support a four digiti channel which starts with a zero, so it can only call the channel 101. This means it won't send the zero at the start so will switch to BBC1 not Radio1. The dual platform setup allows a special Sky Radio platform which uses its own IR codes which send a zero before each channel change (like the current ones send the Sky key before each channel change).


----------



## mesaka

I wonder if anyone has spoken to Pacelink or one of the other TiVo related suppliers to see if a dongle would be possible (see previous discussion)? Being out of the country Freeview is not an option for me nor is the BBC web-site (they block the service for non-residents). I will miss the Radio 7 / 4 comedy stuff if I cannot get it....


----------



## b166er

mesaka said:


> the BBC web-site (they block the service for non-residents).


Have you tried using a proxy server? There are plenty of free proxy servers around, you'll find one with google easy enough. What they do is relay your internet requests and to the site you're going to it looks like you're in a different country. So you go to your free proxy provider, select a UK server, and go to the BBC site. It shouldn't be able to tell that you're not in the UK (unless they have some kind of blacklist of free proxy server IPs, which I doubt).

You don't want to use the proxy server though when you're going to other sites (like this one, your online banking, etc). Due to the way they cache files, you can find yourself logged in as somebody else, or worse than that, somebody else can find themselves logged in as you. But for just listening to a radio stream it should be fine.

I keep meaning to try this to see if video.google.com will work through it, you might have also noticed that they say "video service is not available in your country" still for germany.


----------



## GarySargent

mesaka said:


> I wonder if anyone has spoken to Pacelink or one of the other TiVo related suppliers to see if a dongle would be possible (see previous discussion)? Being out of the country Freeview is not an option for me nor is the BBC web-site (they block the service for non-residents). I will miss the Radio 7 / 4 comedy stuff if I cannot get it....


Just to confirm - there should be a workaround available using a dual platform setup which will allow TiVo to behave pretty much like it does not for a single Sky platform setup - including recording of radio channels.

A dongle is not necessary, and I can't see how it would help.


----------



## mesaka

GarySargent said:


> Just to confirm - there should be a workaround available using a dual platform setup which will allow TiVo to behave pretty much like it does not for a single Sky platform setup - including recording of radio channels.
> 
> A dongle is not necessary, and I can't see how it would help.


Gary

Perhaps I have misunderstood - Does that mean I could have two $ky boxes (in fact I already do!) one solely for the radio and one for normal TV? The work around would then deal with this by sending to one a leading zero and the other would just have a normal operation?

That would be perfect!


----------



## sanderton

The changes Gary is talking about fool TiVo into thinking there are two boxes (one with leading zeros on 4 digit channels for radio, one ithout for TV), but there is only one actual box.


----------



## GarySargent

Indeed - you will need to connect the one Sky box to TiVo by SCART (for TV) and RF (for radio).

If you have the BASH shell hack enabled on your TiVo I'll be making available a script which will make the radio platform also use the SCART (so no need for the RF).


----------



## kitschcamp

That's excellent news. Thanks for your efforts, Gary.


----------



## bradleyem

Will TiVo send a message to people's TiVos letting them know of this change? We know about it, which is great. But not everyone uses this forum.


----------



## GarySargent

Based on past experience they won't send a special message.


----------



## bradleyem

So suddenly tens of thousands of people are going to lose radio services? Nice way for TiVo to lose more people then.


----------



## mesaka

Thats fantastic news - I'm glad its clear now!


----------



## ndunlavey

It's all disppointingly shabby, isn't it? I don't use Sky any more, but this is first time I've felt troubled by our status as a near-irrelevant backwater in the TiVoverse.

Our community is lucky that we have Gary's devotion to make up for a lack of caring by TiVo.


----------



## Jon S

Gary,

I realise this change isn't immediate but can you explain in a little more detail how I will be able to use the RF solution. My TiVo is currently connected to a Sky Digibox with both a scart and an RF connection.

I believe I have already got TiVo set up as a dual input system (Sky + RF), but will I need to do something different?

How will TiVo be fooled into going to Sky for the second input ?

How will I select the radio stations, will they be dummy RF channels or something?

Many thanks for your help and apologies for going back to the very basics.

Jon.


----------



## GarySargent

I'll provide full instructions at the time when the details are finalised.

As to people suddenly having no radio listings and not knowing what to do, they can call customer services to find out. Sky are moving all the channels without telling all their customers!


----------



## bradleyem

GarySargent said:


> Sky are moving all the channels without telling all their customers!


Oh, I doubt that. There will be probably be a big two page spread in the Feb issue of the Sky magazine.


----------



## sanderton

bradleyem said:


> tens of thousands of people are going to lose radio services? Nice way for TiVo to lose more people then.


Er, it's Sky intoduced the problem. And sadly, there are not "tens of thousands" of TiVo owners, let alone TiVo owners using Sky as the source and recording radio.


----------



## sanderton

bradleyem said:


> Will TiVo send a message to people's TiVos letting them know of this change? We know about it, which is great. But not everyone uses this forum.


As far a I can tell, TiVo have NEVER sent a special message, that I can remember. The messages we get are automatically generated by the TiVo when it discovers new or deleted channels in the EPG download, not sent "down the wire".


----------



## kitschcamp

There was one once - to take part in the survey to get a TiVo doll 

Oh, and the Sky Magazine; unless you are on a full package you don't get it anymore. So anyone who takes advantage of the bundles never gets to see it.


----------



## bradleyem

Sanderton - I'm not saying that this is Tivo's fault - it's not. however, there is a solution to it, which is actually very clever. So why don't Tivo tell people about it? Much better from a PR point of view to send a message to all users (which will cost nothing on the whole) telling them what's happening, and most importantly - how to fix it, rather than bearing the brunt of thousands of calls, or people just assuming that they can't do it anymore.

I'd always assumed something like 20-30,000 users of tivo?

Ok, having read your second post if it's not possible it's a mute point.


----------



## b166er

bradleyem said:


> Oh, I doubt that. There will be probably be a big two page spread in the Feb issue of the Sky magazine.


Or in the April issue when it's already caused confusion.



bradleyem said:


> I'm not saying that this is Tivo's fault - it's not. however, there is a solution to it, which is actually very clever. So why don't Tivo tell people about it?


It's not an official solution though. What if it didn't work? What if it caused some problems somehow? They wouldn't want to be troubleshooting that on their support lines.


----------



## MikeMcr

sanderton said:


> As far a I can tell, TiVo have NEVER sent a special message, that I can remember. The messages we get are automatically generated by the TiVo when it discovers new or deleted channels in the EPG download, not sent "down the wire".


I think we discussed this last when the Freeview channels changed. It was established it is possible for TiVo to send custom messages, even targeted by lineup type. They just choose not to.

The last custom message was about the genre changes.


----------



## Andy Leitch

kitschcamp said:


> Oh, and the Sky Magazine; unless you are on a full package you don't get it anymore. So anyone who takes advantage of the bundles never gets to see it.


Not true....I'm on the basic channels and I receive the Sky mag...and it goes straight into the recycling bin.



MikeMcr said:


> I think we discussed this last when the Freeview channels changed. It was established it is possible for TiVo to send custom messages, even targeted by lineup type. They just choose not to.


I wish they would....even it's just a thanks for your continued support of TiVo or even a Merry Christmas or we hope you continue to enjoy your TiVo in the New year...it costs nothing after all.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

Andy Leitch said:


> TiVo is dead......the* future* is almost here......


If Gary is going to take anybody to task for their off topic posts in this thread it really ought to be for the strapline of the above user and the unacceptable HTML link it contained. This* future * HTML link is to none other than http://hd.sky.com/ I feel sure the forum owner may have a policy against allowing html links to websites run by what is now effectively a direct commercial rival of Tivo?

Andy Leitch may well like the idea of Sky HD programs due to the superior visual content but for him to in effect claim that the Sky+ recording system that will be used to record HD programs is a superior replacement for the Tivo Season Pass (much better and complete for all channels and programs than Sky+) and Tivo Wishlists and Advanced Wishlists and Tivo Suggesstions and the Tivo Thumbs system seems to me to be stretching the bounds of all credibility.

Of course I am happy to hear the views of other forum members on this matter.


----------



## kitschcamp

Andy Leitch said:


> Not true....I'm on the basic channels and I receive the Sky mag...and it goes straight into the recycling bin.


Basic = family pack, or as I said the new bundles? If you are on the bundles, rather than the family pack, you don't get it. It's quite explicitly mentioned in the terms for the bundles; I know, I have the bundles.


----------



## Andy Leitch

Captain Scarlet said:


> If Gary is going to take anybody to task for their off topic posts in this thread it really ought to be for the strapline of the above user and the unacceptable HTML link it contained. This* future * HTML link is to none other than http://hd.sky.com/ I feel sure the forum owner may have a policy against allowing html links to websites run by what is now effectively a direct commercial rival of Tivo?
> 
> Andy Leitch may well like the idea of Sky HD programs due to the superior visual content but for him to in effect claim that the Sky+ recording system that will be used to record HD programs is a superior replacement for the Tivo Season Pass (much better and complete for all channels and programs than Sky+) and Tivo Wishlists and Advanced Wishlists and Tivo Suggesstions and the Tivo Thumbs system seems to me to be stretching the bounds of all credibility.
> 
> Of course I am happy to hear the views of other forum members on this matter.


Blimey...who rattled your cage?? Time of the month is it??

Just because Gary tore a strip off you for going OT, doesn't mean you should trawl the forums looking to get other members into trouble.

Get. A. Life.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

kitschcamp said:


> Basic = family pack, or as I said the new bundles? If you are on the bundles, rather than the family pack, you don't get it. It's quite explicitly mentioned in the terms for the bundles; I know, I have the bundles.


Surely the family pack doesn't exist any more and has been replaced by the 6 Sky Mixes as they are actually known. If you were on Family Pack and do nothing they have signed you up for all 6 Mixes equivalent to the channel content of Sky Family Pack at a £1.50 price increase to £21. But you can instead downgrade to only 2 Mixes at £15 or 4 Mixes at £18 per month.

So are you saying if you take all 6 Mixes you still get the magazine but if you take only 2 or 4 Mixes you don't?


----------



## Captain Scarlet

Andy Leitch said:


> Just because Gary tore a strip off you for going OT, doesn't mean you should trawl the forums looking to get other members into trouble.


Surely having a link to the Sky HD website in this forum is the equivalent to sticking two fingers up at every dedicated Tivo user in it.

I would have thought your intention was to upset people with this strapline. No doubt it would go down well in a forum dedicated to Sky+ users.


----------



## Andy Leitch

Captain Scarlet said:


> Surely having a link to the Sky HD website in this forum is the equivalent to sticking two fingers up at every dedicated Tivo user in it.


It's called reality...I have long ago, removed my head out of the sand in the futile hope of a TiVo revival in the UK.



> I would have thought your intention was to upset people with this strapline. No doubt it would go down well in a forum dedicated to Sky+ users.


If my sig offends you...you can turn sigs off in your User CP.

But if a one line sig offends you....how do you cope with life on a daily basis with such a thin skin??


----------



## kitschcamp

Captain Scarlet said:


> So are you saying if you take all 6 Mixes you still get the magazine but if you take only 2 or 4 Mixes you don't?


Yup. I downgraded to 4 mixes, as I didn't need music or kids. The condition of that is you lose the magazine. Big loss.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

Andy Leitch said:


> It's called reality...I have long ago, removed my head out of the sand in the futile hope of a TiVo revival in the UK.


To claim Tivo is *Dead* is actually factually misleading. I also think that suggestion and your link to the Sky HD site in your signature in this forum is in extremely bad taste.

You aren't that guy in a White Van who drives 3 inches from my bumper whenever I am on a motorway in heavy traffic with no way to pass the car in front in the mobile slow speed queue are you.


----------



## b166er

kitschcamp said:


> Yup. I downgraded to 4 mixes, as I didn't need music or kids. The condition of that is you lose the magazine. Big loss.


I did that too at Christmas. I dropped the lifestyle and kids options.

Here's a tip !!.

I called Sky to cancel my Mum's subscription as she switched to freeview. The desperation there to not lose a customer was intense. The regular CS person even transferred me to another CS person who was clearly a trained salesperson who made an offer of half price for 3 months. We cancelled anyway though, she's perfectly happy with freeview.

Next day though, it gave me an idea.

I called Sky and pretended I want to cancel my own subscription to see what a deal I could get. From being on the 21.50 standard package I first brought it down to 18.00 by dropping the lifestyle and kids packages. A drop of 3.50 for no loss of channels (that I watch), good so far.

I still sounded unimpressed though and raved about freeview. I was eventually offered a discount on my 18.00 for the whole of 2006. So I'm paying 13.50 for 4 packages for the rest of the year. I wonder how tempted to quit I'll sound next Christmas 

No I don't feel bad, I only watch about 30 channels (EVER) it just so happens they have them split across 4 packages.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

ndunlavey said:


> I've walys found Andy's sig quite useful. It made me realise right away that he is a posturing **** so I've been always been able to ignore anything he posts. With you it took me a little longer to realise.


Is there anyway that you I and Andy can agree to delete these last few posts of ours before Gary comes along. I feel sure that he won't see the funny side.

I am surprised that Gary has never taken issue with Andy's current signature both on factual and commercial grounds.


----------



## Captain Scarlet

b166er said:


> I called Sky to cancel my Mum's subscription as she switched to freeview. The desperation there to not lose a customer was intense. We cancelled anyway though, she's perfectly happy with freeview.


I'm sure there's an explanation but why didn't your mum just become a Sky ex subscription customer with the box and dish she clearly already has and now owns. Apart from anything else Freeview reception isn't as reliable as Sky in so many places.

Of course Sky Freesat doesn't have E4, More4, UK History, TMF, The Hits, FTN and UK Bright Ideas for non subscribers but then Freeview doesn't have CNN, Euronews, The Horror Channel, Extreme Sports, True Movie, Bad Movies, Matinee Movies, Travel Channel, Reality TV and so on free of charge.


----------



## b166er

Captain Scarlet said:


> I'm sure there's an explanation but why didn't your mum just become a Sky ex subscription customer with the box and dish she clearly already has and now owns. Apart from anything else Freeview reception isn't as reliable as Sky in so many places.
> 
> Of course Sky Freesat doesn't have E4, More4, UK History, TMF, The Hits, FTN and UK Bright Ideas for non subscribers but then Freeview doesn't have CNN, Euronews, The Horror Channel, Extreme Sports, True Movie, Bad Movies, Matinee Movies, Travel Channel, Reality TV and so on free of charge.


Well she's keeping the Sky plugged in for all the free channels it offers. The ones it didn't offer though she'll get on freeview (E4, C4, C5). I know in the old days you could get C4 & C5 via some kind of special card but I think nobody is making them anymore. You think her soon-to-be-invalidated Sky card will still serve up C4 & C5 ?

_feeling guilty as it's well OT now_


----------



## kitschcamp

b166er said:


> No I don't feel bad, I only watch about 30 channels (EVER) it just so happens they have them split across 4 packages.


I know exactly what you mean. The channels I watch are spread over three bundles, but you can't buy 3 bundles - you can have 2 or 4.


----------



## Fred Smith

OT but answering b166er's questions.



b166er said:


> I know in the old days you could get C4 & C5 via some kind of special card but I think nobody is making them anymore.


The Sky Freesat card is still available for £20 (second from last paragraph). But in her case she won't need it, see next answer.



b166er said:


> You think her soon-to-be-invalidated Sky card will still serve up C4 & C5 ?


 Yes, it will serve up CH4 and Five and also Sky Three.


----------



## sanderton

kitschcamp said:


> Oh, and the Sky Magazine; unless you are on a full package you don't get it anymore. So anyone who takes advantage of the bundles never gets to see it.


Really? It's most recent ABC was 6.8m, which suggests that every still got it in June. has it cahnged recently?

Edit, sorry, RTEOT.

That's very interesting, they must have run out of headroom to charge more for advertsing to larger numbers.

BTW, it's always fun trying to peice together yet another Captain Scarlet inspired argument from the edited posts and quotes from now deleted ones. Like a little detective game.


----------



## b166er

Fred Smith said:


> Sky Freesat card is still available for £20


20 quid ... lol, a freeview box can be bought for 30 quid  


Fred Smith said:


> her case she won't need it ~ Yes, it will serve up CH4 and Five and also Sky Three.


Cool, nice to have 3 options to view (aerial, freesky, freeview)


----------



## GarySargent

I've got 4 Sky bundles only and still get the magazine. Used to be on the family pack but changed a few months back now. They never said I wouldn't get the magazine.


----------



## kitschcamp

I changed on Sept 1, I got my last one in November. They claim the labels and printing is done 2 months ahead of delivery.


----------



## Duncan

GarySargent said:


> I've got 4 Sky bundles only and still get the magazine. Used to be on the family pack but changed a few months back now. They never said I wouldn't get the magazine.


I downgraded to 4 bundles in September and they tried the 'you realise you won't get the magazine any more' line in an attempt to get me to change my mind. Unfortunately the magazine still turns up to fill my recycling box with dismal regularity.


----------



## kitschcamp

Shame ours doesn't, we have to buy a Saturday paper for the chicken boxes.


----------



## mike0151

I downgraded to 2 mixes when they brought them out and only this morning my mag fell through the letterbox. BTW there is 2/3 of a page giving some information about the new categories and the channel number changes.


----------



## Andy Leitch

Captain Scarlet said:


> I am surprised that Gary has never taken issue with Andy's current signature both on factual and commercial grounds.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3678750&&#post3678750

For the last time...my sig doesn't break any rules of this forum.
Now go away. You sycophancy is sickening.


----------



## kitschcamp

They can't like me, then <G>


----------



## daveh

Gary, I still don't understand how this workround is going to work. Will it prevent the RF pass-through connection from the sky digibox being used by the TIVO internal tuner for terrestrial analogue TV channels and henceforth only be available for radio?


----------



## OzSat

If you wish to use Sky TV and Sky Radio - then they will be your only two options!

Sky Radio will use the RF input and so nothing else can.

Pass-thru will work - but it could not be captured by TiVo using the listings.


----------



## frogster

ozsat said:


> Sky Radio will use the RF input .....


This is pretty poor. I don't use RF for anything any more.  
As it stands it looks like yet another nail in the UK Tivo coffin.

From the little reading I have been doing it seems as though those with network enabled Tivos will be able to make adjustments to allow for "Sky video" and "Sky radio" to both be via scart. Can someone confirm this?


----------



## GarySargent

Yes but that is anyone that can access a BASH shell, not just those that are network enabled. You still won't be able to use the RF tuner for other channels though.


----------



## frogster

GarySargent said:


> Yes but that is anyone that can access a BASH shell, not just those that are network enabled. You still won't be able to use the RF tuner for other channels though.


Oh yes, some people still use serial connections, don't they? Perhaps the same people who still use RF. 
Lack of RF is not an issue for me, I'm glad to say, and I will have my ethernet bash prompt ready and waiting this time next month.


----------



## GarySargent

Well I still use the serial prompt - sorry! Don't use RF though.


----------



## OzSat

Still use RF here - its the only way we can receive 'The Oxford Channel'.


----------



## sanderton

GarySargent said:


> Yes but that is anyone that can access a BASH shell, not just those that are network enabled. You still won't be able to use the RF tuner for other channels though.


It's theoretically possible, but you're back to my planned hacked approach, which in all honesty won't be worth the effort if Gary's method works as advertised.


----------



## dallardice

Using RF means that radio recordings will be in mono, won't it?


----------



## OzSat

it will unless you use Gary's hack


----------



## GarySargent

Since I just lost the hack I'd better post it here so it is recorded somewhere for when you all need it!...



Code:


#!/tvbin/tivosh

set db [dbopen]
 
RetryTransaction {
 set setupObj [db $db open /Setup]
 foreach signalSrc [dbobj $setupObj get Source] {
    set sigType [dbobj $signalSrc get SignalType]
    if {$sigType != 3} {
      dbobj $signalSrc set Connector 7
  }
 }
}

dbclose $db

(If it isn't obvious what the above is then wait till nearer the time!)


----------



## JNLister

Even more OT but related to some posts here:

Has anyone made/thought of making a Tivo 'plug-in' that produces a chart of which channels you watch in terms of percentage of total scheduled recordings? 

I'd imagine it would be relatively simple, and would be of interest to some - one of the side effects of regular Tivo use is that you stop paying attention to which channel is which, so this feature would help make more informed choices when it comes to package renewal time.


----------



## mesaka

Thats something I would be interested in - I'm not convinced we use the $ky movie channels enough to warrant the extra expense. It would be great to see if I were right (of course I'd spend the money on bigger hard drives or beer or something equally mportant!).


----------



## mike0151

why not just be a nice guy?


Edit: looks like it has changed


----------



## sanderton

You can easily copy-and-paste the To Do list screen from TiVoWeb into Excel and then sort it to get an approximation.


----------



## mrtickle

Phew. Popped in out of panic as the deadline is looming! Glad to see the solution is still on track.


----------



## dvdfever

kitschcamp said:


> Yup. I downgraded to 4 mixes, as I didn't need music or kids. The condition of that is you lose the magazine. Big loss.


Did you? I downgraded to 2 mixes (Entertainment and Music - I couldn't find anything else that was of interest and the only thing I did lose out on via my Sky box was TalkSport, but I can listen to that on Freeview instead) and I still get the mag.

Not that I use it beyond having a flick through a few pages plus the made-up letters page.


----------



## dvdfever

sanderton said:


> You can easily copy-and-paste the To Do list screen from TiVoWeb into Excel and then sort it to get an approximation.


What about those of us who use an unhacked TiVo and just want to record radio the same as TV? My head's starting to spin if Sky as making this as complex as it sounds.


----------



## aerialplug

The solution (now a sticky thread) looks easy enough to do - it's finding the time where I can manage without TiVo for the 3 hours it takes to reconfigure that's putting my head in a spin!

Quick question - appologies if it's been asked already. I'm unsure whether I should be running the rftoscart script each time I reboot (i.e. put it in rc.sysinit.author) or is it a one off fix. If it's the one off solution, is there a way to reverse the hack (i.e. if I wanted to go back to dual platform or use the internal tuner).

One other question - is this method going to be made generally known to TiVo users who wouldn't necessarily know about this forum? The first section of getting it to work via the RF cable invovles no hacking as far as I can see - it's a procedure that could be sent out to any subscriber who wished to set up for radio reception as it's very well written (thanks Gary). 

The only slight annoyance that people may have is that the radio channels will be mixed in with the top 10* lineup of TV channels. I doubt if I'd be too bothered by it but I can see that some people won't like it.


----------



## kitschcamp

Those who subscribed to Tivonews.co.uk's newsletter received a copy of the instructions this afternoon.


----------



## dvdfever

There's one thing I haven't gleamed from this thread, or elsewhere unless I've missed it.

The question is - WHY are Sky doing this with the radio channel numbers? Why not go the whole hog and do it with TV channel numbers and piss everyone off?! Gah! I'm so mad about this as I have an unhacked TiVo and am not planning to change that any time soon.

I've had it since Sept 2001 as well and I find myself enjoying more stuff on the radio these days as TV comedy is getting worse and worse, whereas radio comedy is a gold mine!


----------



## aerialplug

To be honest, they're running out of channel space. They figured that they could number all the audio channels with a trailing zero and make the 0 key on the remote special having a little loud speaker on it. When you key this as the first digit that's what appears - a little loud speaker and not 0.

They didn't think too much about it though in that any recording device that stores channel numbers as integers are incapable of storing these numbers. From their point of view it made good sense - and you have to admit there is some logic to it. However, it's had some unfortunate side effects.

Not that they're that concerned about recording radio - I don't think there's any support for audio only channels on Sky+ or has there ever been and radio on TiVo was an after thought. I remember the surprise expressed by TiVo staff when it was suggested in the one and only customer/TiVo meeting in London that at least Radio 4 should be supported as it's schedule closely resembles that of a TV station (not generic DJ shows).

I'm very pleased that TiVo and the TiVo community have come up with a solution that doesn't involve hacking (necessarily). Hacking isn't a problem for me (mine's bristling with them) This does now mean that TiVo can provide this as a solution on their customer support service (possibly sending a leaflet describing the steps needed). I hope they do.

I've established that the only time I'm going to be able to do the mod between now and Doomsday is immediately after Harry Hill finishes this afternoon - between then and CSI:NY I have a nice 3 hour shaped gap and should it go on any longer I'll set up the second Freeview TiVo to record CSI:NY as it's on Five. (Watch it LIVE? How can you possibly consider doing THAT?!)

Oops - Harry Hill just about to start - allow 5 mins for the adverts and then I'll watch it "near live"


----------



## dvdfever

I'd have moved all the pay-TV channels to four-digit channels beginning with zero. Often with those you have to enter a PIN or have some intervention, whereas if I have no intervention with my TiVo at the time of recording then I'll either get nothing or the radio programmes in mono via RF (and the quality of a stereo recording from TiVo to PC is better than I get from the BBC's Listen Again service)

I've got a Philips pronto so I could configure that to change the channel on the Sky box, but it's a bit of a kludge, it'd have to be in the right place at the right time and not everyone has one so it's not a complete answer.


----------



## aerialplug

Oops - I'm glad I didn't plough ahead with the procedure just yet and that I read the instructions thoroughly before starting! They imply that you can't do it until the channels have rearranged. I'd have had to go through guided setup twice otherwise!


----------



## GarySargent

The hack script is a one off. Not sure if it will reset to normal by redoing a guided setup, I'll find out on the 28th when I move from the test service I'm currently on to the production version


----------



## GarySargent

aerialplug said:


> Oops - I'm glad I didn't plough ahead with the procedure just yet and that I read the instructions thoroughly before starting! They imply that you can't do it until the channels have rearranged. I'd have had to go through guided setup twice otherwise!


It's more that the new dual platform will become available at the same time, so if you have the channel remap then it should be safe to do guided setup.


----------



## scoopuk

aerialplug said:


> ,...I remember the surprise expressed by TiVo staff when it was suggested in the one and only customer/TiVo meeting in London that at least Radio 4 should be supported as it's schedule closely resembles that of a TV station (not generic DJ shows).
> 
> I'm very pleased that TiVo and the TiVo community have come up with a solution that doesn't involve hacking (necessarily).


I'm glad people remember this meeting as I think we've come to assume that being able to record radio via Tivo is a part of the deal. It wasn't. But it is a great add-on and, of course, we now get far more than just BBC Radio 4's TV-like schedules.

And I too want to pass on my sincere thanks and congratulations to Tivo, the mods and the community for finding a non-hackers solution - we're not all confident computer supremos. It's Tivo's simplicity and easy user-interface which even after all this time still makes it the best around.


----------



## dvdfever

scoopuk said:


> I'm glad people remember this meeting as I think we've come to assume that being able to record radio via Tivo is a part of the deal. It wasn't. But it is a great add-on and, of course, we now get far more than just BBC Radio 4's TV-like schedules.
> 
> And I too want to pass on my sincere thanks and congratulations to Tivo, the mods and the community for finding a non-hackers solution - we're not all confident computer supremos. It's Tivo's simplicity and easy user-interface which even after all this time still makes it the best around.


I wouldn't break out the champagne for them. Realistically, there's nothing to stop them doing a software update to sort this out so it falls into line with the new Sky line-up and users don't have to resort to recording their radio programmes in mono (not a big deal for something I'll 'watch-n-wipe' such as Just a Minute and The News Quiz, but there are a few things I like to keep as I've said before that the TiVo quality is better than 'Listen Again', plus it's a damn sight more convenient to use the TiVo.

US users get software updates as well as their EPG, so why should we have to accept such second-best treatment?


----------



## aerialplug

Bare in mind that a true software update would temporarily seriously screw up probably the majority of people on this forum as it would wipe out all hacks/cracks and mods not to mention anyone who's upgraded their hard drive to above 136GB (unless they include that mod in the upgrade)... 

And also, have you ever had any experience in modifying software that was fundamentally designed to use integers to store numbers to recognising leading zeros? I have had to. It took several days of man effort on a relatively small project. Most definitely not trivial. 

Do U.S. users have the ability to record radio stations? I don't know - I haven't looked - but radio wasn't even on the horizon when TiVo launched here, as has already been mentioned so I see being able to record off radio as a privilege, not something I've ever taken for granted. 

The ability to record radio is something a small group of us worked hard to even convince the people at TiVo was worth doing. The fact that TiVo even gave a thought to providing a solution that was originally suggested by people who are on this forum, to a problem that wasn't their doing , deserves more than champagne in my opinion! :up: :up: 

I remember that meeting in London so well - I still have my Tivo Guy plush toy and TiVo temporary tatoo (!) to prove I was there! Things looked so promising for TiVo in the UK then - they even showed us powerpoint slides showing how the US and UK software builds would converge and how what eventually became our 2.5.5 software would be the start of a promising future for TiVo in the UK. 

I feel a bit melancholy right now


----------



## mike0151

Now glad I wasn't there or I'd be shedding a tear or two

Mike


----------



## dvdfever

aerialplug said:


> Bare in mind that a true software update would temporarily seriously screw up probably the majority of people on this forum as it would wipe out all hacks/cracks and mods not to mention anyone who's upgraded their hard drive to above 136GB (unless they include that mod in the upgrade)...
> 
> And also, have you ever had any experience in modifying software that was fundamentally designed to use integers to store numbers to recognising leading zeros? I have had to. It took several days of man effort on a relatively small project. Most definitely not trivial.


I haven't modified anything like that, no, but then I'm not in the business of operating a device that does. If it wasn't at all ever possible whatsoever... etc. to make the change then I'd accept it, but it is possible for TiVo to do it if they were to pull their finger out.



> The ability to record radio is something a small group of us worked hard to even convince the people at TiVo was worth doing. The fact that TiVo even gave a thought to providing a solution that was originally suggested by people who are on this forum, to a problem that wasn't their doing , deserves more than champagne in my opinion! :up: :up:


But to me it just sounds like they're trying to achieve not much more than the bare minimum if they don't give any thought to what extra it can do.

I could think of, and have done, numerous ways broadcasters could improve things, and when I make my feelings known they sometimes act on them, but more often they don't which just smacks of laziness.

I'm not being ungrateful at the massive amount my TiVo does, but it just feels like they can't be bothered any more and have just issued a half-arsed solution which will record in mono, so isn't a valid solution in my book.



> I remember that meeting in London so well - I still have my Tivo Guy plush toy and TiVo temporary tatoo (!) to prove I was there! Things looked so promising for TiVo in the UK then - they even showed us powerpoint slides showing how the US and UK software builds would converge and how what eventually became our 2.5.5 software would be the start of a promising future for TiVo in the UK.
> 
> I feel a bit melancholy right now


I get melancholy when I recall the events that defined my September 2001... I got my TiVo in late September, but earlier - on 2nd September, [.tv] came to a close.


----------



## GarySargent

The new Sky channel line-up should be available for download in daily calls from 10pm tonight.


----------



## mrtickle

Many many thanks for making this happen! And the announcements on the forum. And the resurrection of the email mailing list (was going to suggest that!).


----------



## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> The new Sky channel line-up should be available for download in daily calls from 10pm tonight.


Don't forget that having a 'daily call' before around 3am will put the line-up out-of-sync with Sky.


----------



## OzSat

There are a couple of lineup errors in the new data - if you spot any please post them in SKY EPG - 28th FEB PROBLEMS


----------



## GarySargent

We got duff info - new data will be available midnight!

As for the mailing list - that was hard work! The free list I was using was only free if you had <1000 members and I had 1350ish, so had to get some bulk email utility. Then my email hoster decided I was making too many connections and kept blocking my IP! Got them all out in the end though


----------



## GarySargent

New channel lineup is available now.


----------



## BobBlueUK

I'd just like to add my thanks to TiVo, Gary and all others who have contributed to the discussions to make this fix happen. My TiVo is now merrily set up with a dual Sky TV + Sky Radio platform and changing between xxx & 0xxx channels nicely. 

The only niggle is having the radio & tv channels mixed up in the channel guide as it makes it a bit harder to navigate, but that's a small price to pay compared to losing the radio channels completely.

I did find that I needed to reboot my TiVo after running rftoscart.tcl before the RF->Scart changeover took effect, but it's surviving subsequent reboots without needing to be re-run again. Don't know if redoing guided setup would put RF input back the way it was, but don't fancy a few hours work just out of curiosity - will wait for Gary to report back on that one!

Thanks again, folks! :up:


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## OzSat

It would seem Panasonic idTV users have also lost direct access to Sky Radio channels - as they can only enter three digits.


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## frogster

I have just run the radio/scart script which seems to have worked just fine.

Thanks to all who worked to make this transition smooth.


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## Mark Bennett

I've got a message from TiVo telling me all the radio channels are deleted - but nothing saying they have moved (or been added as 4-digit)
Have I messed up and now if I run the script there are no channels to work with? 

Sorry - I thought I knew what I was doing - waiting until after the 28th and then run the script - did I miss something?

(I haven't run the script yet...)


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## OzSat

No mess up - the radio channels now need adding following the announcement instructions - if you still wany them.


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## Mark Bennett

OK Thanks!

I'll have a go when the things not in use for a bit... (could be tricky  )


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## JudyB

I'm not quite sure if this is the right place to ask, but here goes: We haven't yet re-run guided setup, but we have lost our Season Passes on Radio 4 (Sky).
Does this make sense and does anyone know if they will reappear when/if we do re-run guided setup?

Thanks.


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## OzSat

I beleive they do delete themselves if no record of the channel is on the TiVo for more than around an hour.


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## mrtickle

You'd have to be quick if it does work like that. The tivo message boilerplate says
"If any channels were removed, the scheduled recordings on those channels have been deleted." - I always took that to mean that SPs on those channels vanish at the same time. With that in mind I took a backup of my SPs using angra's tivoweb module the other day so that I could restore it later.

The only way to avoid losing the SPs would've been to have had the Sky Radio lineup a few days early, doing the GS etc and having the channel numbers as they are now but not selected in CIR. With today's download being channel changes only and not also the launch of a new lineup. Then when all the old positions were deleted in today's lineup the SPs would remain. Possibly.


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## OzSat

The only way you would have kept them (nless very quick) was to do a Guided Setup before the daily call today.


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## mrtickle

For those who haven't done a dual guide setup before, I found it very confusing.

You choose the satellite lineup (BSkyB England etc). The screen immediately after that is entitled "Set-Top Box" and asks "Do you use a Set top box with this service?" It actually means the 2nd input (ie cable/sky radio), *not* BSkyB England! Presumably if you say "no" it thinks you have an integrated cable tuner.

After saying yes you then chose the Sky radio lineup from the list (now reads "BSkyB - United Kingdom, Radio Stations"). Then a "service package" screen giving a choice of "Basic (A)" or "None of the above". If you choose none you get instructions to call customer care for what may be an interesting conversation . So choose Basic (A). The rest is as in the Announcement except the manufacturer of the IR codes for the radio lineup is now "Sky Radio" rather than Sky Digital.


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## groovyclam

I found it really confusing too.

I suggest putting mrtickles instructions into the big sticky thread on how to setup Sky radio channels.


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## Dave_Lane

Thanks for the instructions and all the hard work in fixing the radio problem.

I think I must have done something wrong:

I could see the radio stations and use them via scart, but, when I tried selecting the channels I receive, the next connection to Tivo told me that I had changed my package and would have to run the guided setup again.

I've now reverted to Digital satellite and antenna until I have more time.

Has anyone else had this problem?


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## kitschcamp

What was even worse is that awful autoselect every flippin' channel bug that makes me loath to run guided setup. I know it only is run once in a blue moon, but when you have to it drives you spare!


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## =CM=

Tivo's not the only service whose radio side is broken by Sky's EPG change: apparently Sky's own Gnome is also affected for radio: http://medianetwork.blogspot.com/2006_02_26_medianetwork_archive.html#114114734319226998



> Contributors to the Digital Spy Forum who have contacted Sky Technical Support say that their support staff confirm having received a technical bulletin this morning to say that the Gnome would no longer be able to store any of the radio channels. Users can manually enter the four digit numbers and move up and down the list, but the display only shows three digits.


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## blindlemon

Doh!


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## katman

=CM= said:


> Tivo's not the only service whose radio side is broken by Sky's EPG change: apparently Sky's own Gnome is also affected for radio: {URL removed to allow quoting}


With luck, the cause of this will also be because Gnome stores the numbers as Integers so 0101 is the same as 101.

Maybe SKY will decide that the easiest way to fix it is to change the numbering scheme again and use a digit other than 0 as the first digit then TiVo should be able to be used properly again.

Then again.... maybe they wont 

SKY wouldnt be running out of channel numbers is there wasnt so much utter dros on there anyway 

Oh how I miss the days of analogue satellite when *I* could decide what channels appeared where.


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## =CM=

katman said:


> With luck, the cause of this will also be because Gnome stores the numbers as Integers so 0101 is the same as 101.


Apparently not: the DG thread goes on and on but in summary the Sky box itself sends the station ID back to this Gnome as 3 digits. The Gnome can handle 4 digits but stores whatever the host box sends it, which is obviously stripped of the leading 0. It all amounts to the Sky left hand and the Sky right hand not knowing each other and is reportedly leaving them with much egg on face. They expect to fix with a box s/w patch.



katman said:


> Maybe SKY will decide that the easiest way to fix it is to change the numbering scheme again and use a digit other than 0 as the first digit then TiVo should be able to be used properly again.


So far this is not looking likely unfortunately.


katman said:


> Oh how I miss the days of analogue satellite when *I* could decide what channels appeared where.


There is a serious side to this point: they control the box standards (preventing superior boxes coming to market legitimately and the evolution of features we're seeing with Freeview - bumpy road there too), they control the station layout so you can't discard the crud, they donate the box to you upfront but claw that and more back over time with knobs on. No-one is forced to sign up, however there is a de facto monopoly especially for sports. Result for Tivo is a platform whose upgrades break well-loved functionality even if radio was not in the original game plan.


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## Mark Bennett

Is everybody still getting the radio to record ok after the mod?

I did the mod - and the "picture" (screen you get with radio) was terrible - but the sound was ok and the shows recorded.

However I've now discovered that all that ihas been happening for the last few weeks is that the channel changes successfully, but the recording stops immediately. 

I had not tried the script Gary posted to switch to scart, so I tried that to see if it fixed it - nope. 
(Also - does the script have to be re-run after a re-boot? It's not mentioned).

So the TiVo records fine on TV - but not radio in spite of following the instructions - and in spite of it working to start with after the hack... 

Very confused...


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## frogster

All working fine for me.


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## aerialplug

The new setup and mod work fine for me. 

The only drawback is that TivoWeb will only display the radio channels and not the TV channels in the Channels I Watch screen. There is a workaround for this, though I haven't applied it as the ony channel this affects for me is Radio 4 and channel 4 (which it masks) appears elsewhere in the Sky lineup.


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## Tiny Clanger

aerialplug said:


> The only drawback is that TivoWeb will only display the radio channels and not the TV channels in the Channels I Watch screen. There is a workaround for this,


Could you point me in the direction of this, please? I've had a quick Google, but can't find anything, and it's making the guide pretty useless...

(Funnily enough, the England game isn't on Radio 3 

Thanks


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## aerialplug

Tiny Clanger said:


> Could you point me in the direction of this, please? I've had a quick Google, but can't find anything, and it's making the guide pretty useless...


Ditto. I still haven't applied the patch and I'm getting to the point where it would be useful. I thought it was mentioned earlier on in this thread, but after a quick look, I couldn't find it.


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## Jon S

I'm probably being very dense here, but I can't seem to find Gary's instructions on running Guided Set-Up to support a dual SKy TV and Radio platform following the Sky EPG changes at the end of February. I've tried searching, but I guess I'm doing something a bit stupid.

Can anyone point me to them please.

Thanks

John.


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## steveroe

Jon S said:


> I'm probably being very dense here, but I can't seem to find Gary's instructions on running Guided Set-Up to support a dual SKy TV and Radio platform following the Sky EPG changes at the end of February. I've tried searching, but I guess I'm doing something a bit stupid.
> 
> Can anyone point me to them please.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> John.


Here you are John http://www.garysargent.co.uk/tivo/skyradio.htm


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## Jon S

Many thanks for that Steve. Exactly what I was after.


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## aerialplug

bradleyem said:


> So suddenly tens of thousands of people are going to lose radio services? Nice way for TiVo to lose more people then.


I've now met three people whose main reason for leaving TiVo was because the radio recording disappeared from Sky and they were unaware that there was a fix for this problem.

I guess three isn't huge in the grand scheme of things, but for the three I've met there are at least that many more, I'm sure.


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## frogster

Was there ever a Tivo service message about it? I don't remember seeing one.

Most of the service messages I get relate to channels that I can't receive. It would be nice for the function to be applied to something useful.


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## Jon S

I can't seem to get the Radio option to work. Can anybody see where I'm going wrong.

Everything seems to be set-up; I can see Radio 1 on 101 (cab) for example in my listings. The problem is that I can't change channels.

The TV side is fine. The channels change on my Sky box (I use an RF2 link). Where it all goes wrong is when trying to set the IR codes for radio. I don't get the chance because the screen immediately states no signal received from the set-top box. This is the error you normally get if your Sky box is switched-off at this point. 

I assume the problem is the RF connection, but I can't see whats wrong. I've tried a cable in both the RF1 and RF2 on the Sky Digital; with and without the RF2 Link installed. It makies no difference.

A few things that may or may not be relevant.

1. I installed a new hardrive. It had TiVo pre-installed, but no programs/season passes etc.

2. The television I've connected to has no scart so I use RF for the picture.

Any ideas where my problem is ?


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## frogster

Jon S said:


> I've tried a cable in both the RF1 and RF2 on the Sky Digital; with and without the RF2 Link installed.


If you have turned on the RF2 control voltage in the hidden digibox setup menu then you *MUST NOT* connect the RF2 output directly to any device (TV, Tivo). Either use the RF1 socket (which never carries a control voltage and so is always the one to use) or *always* have your link device (TVLink - both parts, Sky-Eye, RF2Link) installed.

As for your particular problem: can your Tivo see the regular RF channels?


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## Jon S

I can't see terretrial via TiVo at the moment. I assume thats because I have swapped the aerial version for Sky Radio.

However, I think you may have pointed me to the problem. I believe in Guided Set-Up I had to select the RF Output of Sky Digital. I just selected 60, but in retrospect i suspect this was both wrong in important. 

As there an easy way to find out the RF channel output from Sky? I can't use the TV (its old hence no scart). Having found the correct channel number can I set-it without re-running Guided Set-Up? 

I'm only using TiVo as a back-up because Sky+ is so unpredictable. New Sky HD users are in for nasty shocks in the future. Wait for those failed recordings for no reason (well you'll get a reason code, but they mean nothing at Sky CS) and the full wipe-out of all your recordings. These can happen on TiVo ofcourse, but Sky seem to treat it as a feature; Sky CS seem overly familiar with the "System Fault" message and the process to run to re-format your buggered drive !!!


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## frogster

Jon S said:


> I can't see terretrial via TiVo at the moment. I assume thats because I have swapped the aerial version for Sky Radio.


This shouldn't make any difference.



> However, I think you may have pointed me to the problem. I believe in Guided Set-Up I had to select the RF Output of Sky Digital. I just selected 60, but in retrospect i suspect this was both wrong in important.


Guided setup asks you this? I'm sure it didn't ask me.



> As there an easy way to find out the RF channel output from Sky?


On the digibox: services 4 0 1 select. Then check the RF settings. You must have done this when you installed the RFLink.



> I'm only using TiVo as a back-up because Sky+ is so unpredictable.


I understand.


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## Blitzer

Since about a week ago my TiVo is hardly recording anything properly. When it tries to change the channel it seems to insert an extra zero so instead of BBC1 (101) I get Radio 1 (0101). Manual channel change still works fine. Everythinf was ok for about three years until last week.

I haven't done the radio hack as I'm not bothered about recording radio shows.

Any ideas?


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## Pete77

Blitzer said:


> I haven't done the radio hack as I'm not bothered about recording radio shows.
> 
> Any ideas?


Sounds like some weird kind of database corruption.

Firstly have you tried rebooting the Tivo with firstly a power off cold reboot (using the System Reset menu and three Thumbs Down to confirm then pulling the plug at the Powering Up screen and then waiting a couple of minutes before plugging it in again) then a warm reboot not pulling the plug at the Powering Up screen.

If the problem still persists then try rerunning Guided Setup selecting Aerial as a source (unless your source is Aerial in which case select Digital Satellite) and then going through the whole process and waiting for the database to finish rebuilding. Then rerun Guided Setup again (after a couple more reboots too before doing so) going back to your original source such as Digital Satellite.

Hopefully that will do the trick.


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## dvdfever

frogster said:


> If you have turned on the RF2 control voltage in the hidden digibox setup menu then you *MUST NOT* connect the RF2 output directly to any device (TV, Tivo). Either use the RF1 socket (which never carries a control voltage and so is always the one to use) or *always* have your link device (TVLink - both parts, Sky-Eye, RF2Link) installed.


I don't quite understand this. Following the instructions and having a dual Sky TV and digital cable setup on the TiVo (the latter instead of RF aerial, so I can get the radio channels), I thought the whole point of turning on the RF2 power was to get the radio channels via RF? (I've yet to apply the bash script to get the radio via SCART but am wondering if this is causing a problem first)

As things stand, when I change up from 101 for example, it goes to 101 (cab) and adds a zero so the Sky box is changed to 0101 for Radio 1, but the TiVo just says "The recorder cannot display live TV", and for a few days since I did this guided setup change the TiVo has been telling me, after connecting to get the listings, "Could not find your lineup!"

I thought I'd followed the instructions correctly, but can someone please tell me where I've gone wrong. Ta.


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## Pete77

dvdfever said:


> I thought I'd followed the instructions correctly, but can someone please tell me where I've gone wrong. Ta.


The point of turning on the RF power is to send the program you are playing on the Sky box outwards directly via RF2 to be received on say another television a considerable distance away.

Your Sky box should go from RF1 to RFIn on the Tivo while the cable box should go from the Cable outbound Scart to the Tivo Aux Scart. Presumably in this situation you aren't using RF2?


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## mrtickle

Pete77 said:


> The point of turning on the RF power is to send the program you are playing on the Sky box outwards directly via RF2 to be received on say another television a considerable distance away.


That is dangerously misleading advice. The RF2 power is solely to power a TV link device at the other end to control a Digibox so that you can change channels and watch programmes from the 2nd location. It's nothing to do with how far away the TV link is, and should never _ever_ be turned on _unless_ you have something plugged into RF2 which needs to be powered (eg a TV link). If you turn on the voltage and connect RF2 to a TV's aerial socket you could seriously damage the TV.


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## Pete77

mrtickle said:


> That is dangerously misleading advice. The RF2 power is solely to power a TV link device at the other end to control a Digibox so that you can change channels and watch programmes from the 2nd location. It's nothing to do with how far away the TV link is, and should never _ever_ be turned on _unless_ you have something plugged into RF2 which needs to be powered (eg a TV link). If you turn on the voltage and connect RF2 to a TV's aerial socket you could seriously damage the TV.


Thanks for the correction.


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## mrtickle

No worries. Frogster's warning is very important, hence the "*MUST NOT*"!


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## dvdfever

I've just double-checked and ensured that RF1 is now plugged into the TiVo's RF-input but how do I 'see' the channels?

Going to "101 (cab)" for example just gives me the same problem mentioned in message 261. Ta.


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## Pete77

dvdfever said:


> I've just double-checked and ensured that RF1 is now plugged into the TiVo's RF-input but how do I 'see' the channels?
> 
> Going to "101 (cab)" for example just gives me the same problem mentioned in message 261. Ta.


Going to 101 from Live Tv should take you to 101 (Sky) and 101 (cable) alternately using the remote each time 101 is entered. The Tivo switches the source used between Sky on the Scart socket and the Virgin box using RF each time.

When carrying out a scheduled recording on 101 cable the Tivo simply switches to using Virgin on RF as the input signal and then sends the 101 RF code appropriate for that channel platform.


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## dvdfever

I don't understand why it's not working for me, but I'll try a guided setup again later in case I went wrong somewhere as I don't think I was getting exactly what I was expecting to see when following the instructions on garysergeant's website.


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## dvdfever

Just realised what the problem is - I'm a bit thick 

When it started asking what RF frequency the Sky box was on, I got mixed up with the RF that the TiVo's set to and wondered why I had a blank screen.

Now I appreciate how my Mum gets confused when I tell her she needs to record Sky on her video by going to AV2. I mean AV2 on the video but she sometimes thinks AV2 on the TV, which is where the DVD player's connected 

(Edit: It's still giving me a blank screen when I go to, for example, 101 for Radio 1, even though it said 'Input Signal ok' for the RF this time round doing a guided setup. Help!)


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## swarrans

Blitzer said:


> Since about a week ago my TiVo is hardly recording anything properly. When it tries to change the channel it seems to insert an extra zero so instead of BBC1 (101) I get Radio 1 (0101). Manual channel change still works fine. Everythinf was ok for about three years until last week.
> 
> I haven't done the radio hack as I'm not bothered about recording radio shows.
> 
> Any ideas?


I've been experiencing a similar thing recently - having never had any failed recordings in years of use I've recently had loads and it looks like it's been caused by the odd zero being sent causing it to try and change Sky to a radio station. I use a direct serial connection from RF2 to the Tivo, hence the previous reliability I think.
As I never use the 4 digit radio facility, is it possible to "run it off" in a Sky menu somewhere so that even an accidental leading zero won't bring up the 4 digits?

Simon


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## dvdfever

swarrans said:


> I've been experiencing a similar thing recently - having never had any failed recordings in years of use I've recently had loads and it looks like it's been caused by the odd zero being sent causing it to try and change Sky to a radio station. I use a direct serial connection from RF2 to the Tivo, hence the previous reliability I think.
> As I never use the 4 digit radio facility, is it possible to "run it off" in a Sky menu somewhere so that even an accidental leading zero won't bring up the 4 digits?
> 
> Simon


For some reason my problem is now solved because it has decided to behave so I can select radio channels like TV ones, and it inserts the zero, but I instructed it to do so in the digital cable setup. It sounds like you've got this extra zero happening in the digital satellite setup as well.


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