# DirecTV "Whole Home" solution -- Better than TiVo?



## jbell73 (Oct 31, 2006)

This is not meant to be a Troll, as I'm a long time TiVo user (since 2002 - Series 2 debut). However this past week my parents (in their mid 60's) were telling me about their new DirecTV DVR solution. Seems it's got TiVo beat in a couple of areas and I have to ask myself "How can this be??"

DirecTV Whole-Home Solution

Their DVR "Whole Home" solution allows you to watch recorded content in ANY room, from ANY DVR. It mixes the all the recorded shows from all DVR's into one convenient list. No need to select a remote DVR at the bottom of your "Now Playing" list. It's just listed there with the source DVR as a note.

You can start to watch any show just press Play, not "transfer" and then "play" .. you can fast forward through the show as it's it's on the local DVR, not wait for it to transfer over to skip 30 minutes in (I'm sure there is a slight delay while it skips, but it does not force you to wait for the entire show to transfer.)

All of this from a company whose main focus is not DVR's, but putting satellite dishes on people's houses! This seems like a joke, that TiVo whose only product is DVR technology still can't keep up with simple convenience features that the competitors don't seem to have a problem developing.

What am I missing? I know that Tivo cannot work with DirecTV, and this solution may be the reason the DirecTiVo solution has been pushed to 2011, but tiVo really needs to get their act together, and provide what is truely a competitive solution.

One last note -- Does anyone know when we will have cooperative scheduling?

-JBell73


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

While that feature is there, many other TiVo features are missing. So better depends on the use case and users particular desires.

TiVo is known to be working on a whole home solution for cable companies to be able to compete with this, but who knows when that will become available and which, if any, major cable companies will pick it up.

The DirecTV solution does not support features similar to TiVo ToGo, TiVo To Come Back, Web videos, You Tube, Netflix, Internet services like photo and video sharing sites or frame channel.

But you are right, that in this area, TiVo is behind and playing catch up.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

two things
1. I have 5 DVRs in the house and they have their own function - such as kids shows on the bonus room DVR, stuff to watch while falling asleep on the bedroom TiVo etc..
If all of that fell into one long list in every now playing - I and my family would hate it. Now even with 5 TiVo DVRs it is not that hard to go find a show on another DVR since the shows depend on where the TiVo is anyhow.

2. can I stream Netflix to directTV? can I pull shows of my PC where I have ripped movies to?

couple of major shortcomings.

the only lack I see is that TiVo does not stream between DVRs yet.


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## turbobuick86 (May 3, 2002)

Directv is expensive. I was there 11 years. While the service was excellent, the content (100 crap channels for each one I actually wanted) was not worth it, IMHO.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> two things
> 1. I have 5 DVRs in the house and they have their own function - such as kids shows on the bonus room DVR, stuff to watch while falling asleep on the bedroom TiVo etc..
> If all of that fell into one long list in every now playing - I and my family would hate it. Now even with 5 TiVo DVRs it is not that hard to go find a show on another DVR since the shows depend on where the TiVo is anyhow.


True. I think this product is really aimed at people who want 1 DVR and the ability to stream to an HD receiver in one or more other rooms.



> 2. can I stream Netflix to directTV? can I pull shows of my PC where I have ripped movies to?


Netflix... no.
Supposedly if you also buy the Internet VOD service and hardware you will be able to stream from a DLNA server on a PC, so ripped movies should work there. That feature is reputedly still a beta test feature and apparently doesn't work well yet.



> the only lack I see is that TiVo does not stream between DVRs yet.


As I posted above, TiVo is reported to be working on streaming to cable box clients at some point in the future. I think if they get that working, it would be a very short jump to streaming between DVRs. Since TiVo is developing for DirecTV, I am hoping their new box will also have these DirecTV whole home features as well.

It will be very interesting to see what is shown in January at CES.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I think most people with direct TV can stream netflix through a bluray player if they want to. There isn't any need to stream netflix on a dvr, because you can't record it to watch later. If I could stream all the content I wanted to watch through netflix, I wouldn't need a dvr.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

DirecTV has a product I wished TiVo had - proper MRV.

I had to switch to windows media center to get what I wanted.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

CuriousMark said:


> As I posted above, TiVo is reported to be working on streaming to cable box clients at some point in the future. I think if they get that working, it would be a very short jump to streaming between DVRs. Since TiVo is developing for DirecTV, I am hoping their new box will also have these DirecTV whole home features as well.
> 
> It will be very interesting to see what is shown in January at CES.


yes, I am confident TiVo is working on streaming for their own DVRs as well.
I think the whole home DirectTV thing with DLNA is what is holding up the TiVo version of DirectTV DVR


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> I think most people with direct TV can stream netflix through a bluray player if they want to. There isn't any need to stream netflix on a dvr, because you can't record it to watch later. If I could stream all the content I wanted to watch through netflix, I wouldn't need a dvr.


what does this even mean? Of course I could stream Netflix through a PS3 if I wanted and with a pretty good interface to boot. Or I could buy a blu ray player and do that

or

I could just enable it on what I already have now with one less box to worry about


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

jbell73 said:


> What am I missing? I know that Tivo cannot work with DirecTV, and this solution may be the reason the DirecTiVo solution has been pushed to 2011, but tiVo really needs to get their act together, and provide what is truely a competitive solution.


The main limitation of DirecTV's setup is that it can only stream to one remote at a time. So you can watch off the hub and stream to a remote for a total of two max streams. The other remotes are dead.

I've read that the Comcast system can support up to 4 remotes at once but you're limited to 1 DVR on the 'system'. So if you want multiple DVRs, you have to run multiple hubs.

As _CuriousMark_ points out 'better' is definitely in the eye of the beholder...


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> what does this even mean? Of course I could stream Netflix through a PS3 if I wanted and with a pretty good interface to boot. Or I could buy a blu ray player and do that
> 
> or
> 
> I could just enable it on what I already have now with one less box to worry about


Streaming of Netflix by Tivo is a gimmick that doesn't utilize the core functionality of the DVR. It doesn't make Tivo a better DVR than the Direct TV DVR.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> I think most people with direct TV can stream netflix through a bluray player if they want to


I would wager that "most people" with DirecTV do not have a bluray player, much less one which can stream Netflix.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

shwru980r said:


> Streaming of Netflix by Tivo is a gimmick that doesn't utilize the core functionality of the DVR. It doesn't make Tivo a better DVR than the Direct TV DVR.


So teaching your wife to change inputs on the TV, AV-Receiver, fire up the OTT box and then stream Netflix, rather than having it all under one user interface is better?

It may not be core functionality, but the integration is important and valuable for many people. So yes, in that respect it is a better DVR because of it.


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## ergodic (Mar 8, 2008)

I just recently switched to DirecTV from Cox cable w/ Tivos. I will share what I've found so far:

Advantages:

1) Multiroom viewing works well. Guide is consolidated across all receivers and DVRs. You can initiate, watch and delete recordings from non-DVR receivers anywhere. It all seems to work as promised, which actually surprised me a little. We got 2 HD DVRs and 3 HD receivers. The non-DVR receivers went in places where there isn't a lot of demand (guest rooms, etc.) They all talk and stream with each other nicely so far as I can tell. There may be streaming limitations but nothing I've run into so far.

2) It is a little less expensive for us, especially counting TiVo subscription. I don't know Turbobuick86 is referring to - I've costed this out quite carefully and even after the initial discount it is less for us. I suppose cable systems vary in pricing and it may be different if you don't subscribe premium channels. Everyone has to cost this for themselves I think.

3) No cablecards or "tuning adapters". No more switched digital video. Cox cable here simply was unable to deal with the cablecards, or (my suspicion) they preferred that they didn't work. We ended up with one TiVo box with only one working card, they never could get it paired. Not directly a TiVo issue, but since TiVo works with cable and not satellite, it applies to the decision.

4) Direct streaming /viewing to PCs using some very straightforward software download (DirecTV2PC). No more waiting on transfers box-to-box or to PC. It works well.

5) No need for ethernet jacks or wireless adapters - DTV uses built-in DECA on the boxes with a cable injector at the router. (Technical note that the DirecTV installers don't seem to grasp: if you use the DECA system as you should, do NOT connect Ethernet cables to the receivers.)

6) More sports channels from everywhere than you can shake a remote at. In fact I had to shake the remote at them a lot because we don't watch them. This isn't directly relevant to TiVo - again really an issue of cable vs. satellite, but if sports are important to you then DirecTV strikes me as the better choice.

7) The boxes are physically quite a bit smaller and seem to produce less heat.

8) Managing the recording subscriptions seems faster, especially when changing/deleting, where the TiVo could take forever.

9) Pay-per-view works - DirecTV PPV of course, but it works. Not something we personally use a great deal, but it is nice to have it.

OK, disadvantages:

1) No Netflix / Amazon / YouTube etc. I've kept the lifetime TiVo HD plugged in to a separate input for that, set it to antenna-only, and that works great for Unbox and what-not. DirecTV does have media sharing from PCs. We don't use it so I haven't tried it yet to see how well it works.

2) The TiVo remote is much better and the TiVo menu/search design overall is better. 

3) If you're on the west coast, note that some of the cable channel feeds are eastern. Since we watch virtually everything out of the DVR buckets I could care less when it airs, but if you watch live you may want to check into the channels you watch.

4) You have to have a S/SE line of sight for the dish. I bought a little $3 app for my Droid so I could find out beforehand if there were sightlines and where the best one was. The HD dish is about 2'x3', not that big and not really ugly, but appearance may be an issue for some.

5) TiVo's phone support seems better, though compared with just the one rather minor support question I've called into DirecTV so far. DirecTV's email support is worthless, but in my experience TiVo's wasn't any better. (Got a problem? Gotta call is the rule I guess.)

We've only had this a couple of weeks so it's always possible some nasty problem will show up down the road. But so far overall it's been a pleasure.

My apologies if there's something that should be on the above list I'm forgetting about.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

ergodic said:


> 4) You have to have a S/SE line of sight for the dish. I bought a little $3 app for my Droid so I could find out beforehand if there were sightlines and where the best one was. The HD dish is about 2'x3', not that big and not really ugly, but appearance may be an issue for some.


Just an FYI - Dishpointer website is free and covers all satellites:
http://www.dishpointer.com/


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

jbell73 said:


> Seems it's got TiVo beat in a couple of areas and I have to ask myself "How can this be??"


Yea, it's pretty great.

The only thing, some people may be forced into it because of the 50 series link limit, which TiVo doesn't have. But DirecTV's MRV is awesome.



ZeoTiVo said:


> 2. can I stream Netflix to directTV? can I pull shows of my PC where I have ripped movies to?


I'm trying to figure out what this has to do with MRV... I use playon to accomplish both of these tasks. Sure, TiVo does it better, but again, I thought we were talking about MRV...



ZeoTiVo said:


> the only lack I see is that TiVo does not stream between DVRs yet.


It's a huge one. MRV was worthless to me. It would take so long for a show to be 'fast forwardable' that I didn't bother with it. I can't tell the difference between a show coming from a different DVR vs. local. It's that good.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> I think most people with direct TV can stream netflix through a bluray player if they want to. ....


I think most people with or without DirecTV could jet off to Monte Carlo at a moments notice in their private jet if they wanted to,...

...if they had the jet.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

This is the one single most important feature that Tivo has to (needs to) implement.



jbell73 said:


> One last note -- Does anyone know when we will have cooperative scheduling?
> 
> -JBell73


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

TolloNodre said:


> Just an FYI - Dishpointer website is free and covers all satellites:
> http://www.dishpointer.com/


Thanks for the link! I have had no luck trying to point at a Galaxy bird for my FTA and this site showed me a 200' obstruction I never knew was there. I thought the problem was trees. Now I know just where to aim to avoid that obstruction.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> Streaming of Netflix by Tivo is a gimmick that doesn't utilize the core functionality of the DVR. It doesn't make Tivo a better DVR than the Direct TV DVR.


even more "what the heck does that mean"
I sit down to watch shows - I like to pick up one remote and decide what I am going to watch - TiVo fits my bill since I have options all on the TiVo box. Seems less like a gimmick and more like what I want.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Yea, it's pretty great.
> 
> The only thing, some people may be forced into it because of the 50 series link limit, which TiVo doesn't have. But DirecTV's MRV is awesome.
> 
> ...


MRV is about watching a show I have not recorded on the box but is somewhere else. I sit down and have choice of Netflix and also movies I ripped from DVD to a PC server. I also only record analog from TWC extended basic cable and then Digital/HD from OTA.
I have no CCI flag issues and pay 45 a month to TWC and 15 a month to Netflix. I can MRV any show to any other TV/TiVo in the house and with all wired ethernet The MRV is fast to the point I can FFwd the first set of commercials. If I had stopped watching it on another TiVo then I have the transfer from paused position option. That is what 'MRV' is about. I am happy that DirectTV has a workable system as well but it does not make it a selling point to me especially when I am looking at 60$ total paid out to get the content


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> MRV is about watching a show I have not recorded on the box but is somewhere else. I sit down and have choice of Netflix and also movies I ripped from DVD to a PC server. I also only record analog from TWC extended basic cable and then Digital/HD from OTA.
> I have no CCI flag issues and pay 45 a month to TWC and 15 a month to Netflix. I can MRV any show to any other TV/TiVo in the house and with all wired ethernet The MRV is fast to the point I can FFwd the first set of commercials. If I had stopped watching it on another TiVo then I have the transfer from paused position option. That is what 'MRV' is about. I am happy that DirectTV has a workable system as well but it does not make it a selling point to me especially when I am looking at 60$ total paid out to get the content


I'm not sure what you mean. With DirecTV, I can fast forward the intro and every set of commercials. No waiting until the first set. I'm not saying TiVo MRV is terrible, it's just not as good.

I don't know what you mean by $60? DirecTV does charge $99 for a DECA install. They did mine for free. Then $3/mo, but DirecTV DVR is only $5.99/month for ALL of my DVRs.

The netflix thing is FAR superior on TiVo, agreed. But I watch ripped DVDs all the time on my DirecTV, and since it's streamed, i don't have to wait for it to upload to the TiVo.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> ...But I watch ripped DVDs all the time on my DirecTV, and since it's streamed, i don't have to wait for it to upload to the TiVo.


I'm guessing you've not used Stream Baby, Stream?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> even more "what the heck does that mean"
> I sit down to watch shows - I like to pick up one remote and decide what I am going to watch - TiVo fits my bill since I have options all on the TiVo box. Seems less like a gimmick and more like what I want.


You're not recording netflix on the Tivo to watch later. You still need a bluray player to watch bluray disks from netflix. Many bluray players stream netflix. It's somewhat more convenient to have it on one box, but a universal remote makes multiple devices seem like one device. I don't see the one box solution as that big of an advantage. To me, adding a feature that isn't integrated into the core functionality of the DVR is a gimmick.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> even more "what the heck does that mean"
> I sit down to watch shows - I like to pick up one remote and decide what I am going to watch - TiVo fits my bill since I have options all on the TiVo box. Seems less like a gimmick and more like what I want.


I pick up one remote and watch either of 2 TiVos, my media center PC, my DVD player, TV direct, or a VCR, or listen to the radio (remember them?).


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

shwru980r said:


> You're not recording netflix on the Tivo to watch later. You still need a bluray player to watch bluray disks from netflix. Many bluray players stream netflix. It's somewhat more convenient to have it on one box, but a universal remote makes multiple devices seem like one device. I don't see the one box solution as that big of an advantage. To me, adding a feature that isn't integrated into the core functionality of the DVR is a gimmick.


You are forgetting one big thing. Many people don't like to switch inputs. Don't ask me why, but that is the theory behind the one big box. The thought is as soon as they have to switch inputs to do something else you have lost them. Now it isn't as big of a deal with younger people who are used to multiple devices especially consoles, but the thinking still remains with the CE market.

Look at Google TV for an example. It is trying to do everything without requiring the user to switch inputs.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

innocentfreak said:


> You are forgetting one big thing. Many people don't like to switch inputs. Don't ask me why, but that is the theory behind the one big box. The thought is as soon as they have to switch inputs to do something else you have lost them. Now it isn't as big of a deal with younger people who are used to multiple devices especially consoles, but the thinking still remains with the CE market.
> 
> Look at Google TV for an example. It is trying to do everything without requiring the user to switch inputs.


But even with Google TV you would need a universal remote to to control your external devices that are connected to Google TV. And the commands will still have to be relayed to the external devices. Tivo had this functionality with the Series1 and Series2 but the Series3/HD/Premiere don't have this functionality anymore. Tom Rogers doesn't want Tivo controlling external devices anymore. It seems like one of the main purposes of Google TV is to switch inputs.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

shwru980r said:


> But even with Google TV you would need a universal remote to to control your external devices that are connected to Google TV. And the commands will still have to be relayed to the external devices. Tivo had this functionality with the Series1 and Series2 but the Series3/HD/Premiere don't have this functionality anymore. Tom Rogers doesn't want Tivo controlling external devices anymore. It seems like one of the main purposes of Google TV is to switch inputs.


Google TV uses IR blasters connected to the individual components which is one of the reasons I don't see it doing well. You then interface with the Google TV with the Google TV remote.

If Google had been smart about it, it would have also had the option to pull via IP so you could pull in info similar to how KMTTG and TiVo Desktop do it.

The reason TiVo got rid of it is they didn't need it anymore with the introduction of CableCARD.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> You are forgetting one big thing. Many people don't like to switch inputs. Don't ask me why, but that is the theory behind the one big box. The thought is as soon as they have to switch inputs to do something else you have lost them. Now it isn't as big of a deal with younger people who are used to multiple devices especially consoles, but the thinking still remains with the CE market.
> 
> Look at Google TV for an example. It is trying to do everything without requiring the user to switch inputs.


I agree with you on that switching issue. I don't like it either. OTOH I bought mom a programmable Logitec remote for Christmas and now I'm wishing I had got me one too at that price. Just push 1 button and it switches everything over to the device you want to use. Obviously many of you have a similar remote but if you've never used one you don't know what you're missing. Sure beats having a box full of remotes to wade through!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

restart88 said:


> Sure beats having a box full of remotes to wade through!


The logitech programmable remotes are great and I can easily recommend them
but
with my setup of simply using TiVo DVR at each TV I not only have one remote for my main TV - I actually can use the exact same remote in any room of my house and watch my shows. 
If I can not find the remote for say the bonus room and do not feel like doing the 20 minute hunt for where it fell to right then - I can go grab the bedroom remote and use it in the bonus room. In fact I actually have some spare peanut remotes now and keep a couple stashed away in my office so I can go get one there and even set the TV power and loudness on that remote real quick.

so 
- one type of now playing list that is easy to use and shows all my media
- one type of remote that will work anywhere in the house


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

shwru980r said:


> Streaming of Netflix by Tivo is a gimmick that doesn't utilize the core functionality of the DVR. It doesn't make Tivo a better DVR than the Direct TV DVR.


If the DirectTV DVR doesn't do Netflix at all, then it absolutely makes the Tivo a better DVR, assuming the Netflix doesn't reduce the basic DVR functionality of the Tivo unit (it doesn't).

Not everyone has a Blu-Ray player, Wii, Xbox, or whatever other fancy new device that has Netflix capability built in.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

aaroncgi said:


> If the DirectTV DVR doesn't do Netflix at all, then it absolutely makes the Tivo a better DVR, assuming the Netflix doesn't reduce the basic DVR functionality of the Tivo unit (it doesn't).
> 
> Not everyone has a Blu-Ray player, Wii, Xbox, or whatever other fancy new device that has Netflix capability built in.


Have you tried the streaming Netflix movies? They are the lamest set of movies that you could ever assemble in one place. Almost nothing you would want to see is available. I do agree with you but the streaming Netflix option is joke today.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> Have you tried the streaming Netflix movies? They are the lamest set of movies that you could ever assemble in one place. Almost nothing you would want to see is available. I do agree with you but the streaming Netflix option is joke today.


I have no problem finding content to stream on Netflix especailly as they add more TV shows. My current instant queue is over 150 titles so I dont know what you are talking about.

http://instantwatcher.com/


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

If it doesn't have something like Auto-record Wishlist functionality, I don't want it.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

HiDefGator said:


> Have you tried the streaming Netflix movies? They are the lamest set of movies that you could ever assemble in one place. Almost nothing you would want to see is available. I do agree with you but the streaming Netflix option is joke today.


Yes, we have watched many of the streaming (instant viewing) movies through Netflix. Admittedly, our movie taste may lean more towards the older stuff than your average Joe, but it's not like we can't rent it from the non-instant Netflix if we really need something. Last I heard Netflix recently spent $5 billion ostensibly to add more content for instant viewing, so the situation can only improve.

We do use Netflix primarily for watching TV shows. The quality with our connection speed isn't up to even regular DVD in video and audio - though still perfectly acceptable when viewed on a 31" TV.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> Have you tried the streaming Netflix movies? They are the lamest set of movies that you could ever assemble in one place. Almost nothing you would want to see is available. I do agree with you but the streaming Netflix option is joke today.


yeah I am going to be laughing my head off as I watch Farscape, Babylon 5 and Lost all in order. Then I will look further likely to 24.

So do they have new DVD releases in streaming right away? Nope but check this out - for the same fee I can get streaming AND DVDs in the mail. Since I have TiVo I can even rip the DVD to my PC and use pyTiVo or desktop to have them show up in now playing and watch on any TV with no DVD player or the hassle of the DVD being dirty or scratched. I simply delete the movie file from my PC after 
viewing and the rental is done.

So sure DirectTV users have a much better DirectTV experience than before but I have had it for a few years now on my TiVo DVRs


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> Have you tried the streaming Netflix movies? They are the lamest set of movies that you could ever assemble in one place. Almost nothing you would want to see is available. I do agree with you but the streaming Netflix option is joke today.


Netflix will have new movies in a few months as they have signed up several major studios to provide content for their streaming video services.

Myself, I don't use Directv because of weather interference, particularly in snow. Also, more expensive internet, since the service wouldn't be bundled.
I changed from Cox to Verizon Fios in may and the service has been flawless...no reboots on tivo or channel losses caused by SDV/Tuning adapter.
Verizon for the most part doesn't use the CCI flag, so MRV is usable and since I have the Tivos connected by ethernet it works reasonably well.

Tivo isn't perfect, but its the best combination of function and service right now...it needs to improve technology, I see no reason to buy the Premier...not worth the cost versus the benefits. Tivo badly needs to figure out how to do streaming MRV like the Moxi. However the provider component pairing of Tivo and Verizon FIOS is for me the best service around.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I doesn't make sense for Direct TV to add Netflix because they want to sell pay per view movies and you can't use the HD Tivos with Direct TV anyway.


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## turbobuick86 (May 3, 2002)

That's the real downside to satellite based tv is no internet package. Well, not one that worth purchasing. When you have to shop separately for an ISP, the combined prices begin to skyrocket. Add in wired home phone and it really gets big. I did allow Verizon to bill me when I had Directv for a minor savings, but it wasn't like having both from one or the other.

Currently using FiOS 25/25 internet/wired phone $84 w/taxes. OTA TV $0.00 with netflix $9.87 +tivo service. For another ~$30 per month we could get FiOS tv, but don't miss 200 channels of crap for espn and few others I would actually watch occasionally. 

Netflix is like having a dozen full TiVo's ready to provide unlimited viewing choices. Best bargain ever.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

turbobuick86 said:


> That's the real downside to satellite based tv is no internet package. Well, not one that worth purchasing. When you have to shop separately for an ISP, the combined prices begin to skyrocket. Add in wired home phone and it really gets big. I did allow Verizon to bill me when I had Directv for a minor savings, but it wasn't like having both from one or the other.
> ...


High costs aren't always the case with satellite TV and a land line. We get our DSL through the local phone company (Qwest), and pay $54 per month for our land line and DSL, including taxes. So add on what we were paying to Dish Network, and we were at $100 for phone, internet, and pay TV. Comcast cable internet, our only other option, was far more expensive for internet alone. You could get the triple play deal, but that was already $99 and for a very limited time (6-12mo), then it increased significantly. So whoopee, save $1 for a year, then spend like crazy?

Honestly I believe all these 'bundle and save' deals touted by all the major players are just a way to get people to spend more than they need to. I have not come across any bundle deal that ends up costing less than what we're already paying for the services we need, and most cost significantly more.


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## turbobuick86 (May 3, 2002)

Yeah, I had about the same deal as you, Aaron. Had Verizon dsl/phone/directv bundle. The problem is we outgrew DSL at 3mb and the cost for 7mb was about double and iffy even if they hooked it up. I'm pretty close to the CO and Verizon DSL couldn't guarantee me more than 4. Netflix HD takes a strong 5mb minimum. 

For me it was either cable(yuk) or FiOS. Luckily they strung FiOS last year so it was a no-brainer and a nice $150 rebate card. We can stream HD to multiple TV's now. 

I got great service from Directv, but it was expensive because they bundle HD in a strange way. I'm tired of paying a premium for what should be considered normal programming. HD isn't special anymore, ie: I want to see it, but I just don't want to pay extra for it. =)


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

CuriousMark said:


> So teaching your wife to change inputs on the TV, AV-Receiver, fire up the OTT box and then stream Netflix, rather than having it all under one user interface is better?
> 
> It may not be core functionality, but the integration is important and valuable for many people. So yes, in that respect it is a better DVR because of it.


I have to agree. I've related this before, but even though I have a 400 disc DVD jukebox, I had all but completely quit watching any of my DVDs until the DVD plugin for pyTivo came along. Now, given the much smaller number of DVDs I have than .mpg videos on my server, and given the lower resolution of the DVD compared to the 1080 programming, I still watch my DVD content much less often than my .mpg content, but at least I do sometimes watch my DVDs, now. It is hard to overestimate the annoyance factor when it comes to making a selection. Convenience produces a VERY strong selection factor. Why does McDonalds sell so many hamburgers? Their superior taste?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

jbell73 said:


> This is not meant to be a Troll, as I'm a long time TiVo user (since 2002 - Series 2 debut). However this past week my parents (in their mid 60's) were telling me about their new DirecTV DVR solution. Seems it's got TiVo beat in a couple of areas and I have to ask myself "How can this be??"
> 
> DirecTV Whole-Home Solution
> 
> ...


Admittedly those are very important features for many people, and even I am impressed by a smooth MRV solution. It's not the end-all and be-all of the DVR, though.

First of all, I'm not going to spend a single plug nickel on a device I can't hack.

More generally, though, the important aspect, for me, of the TiVo is not so much its ability to record and transfer programs, but rather its ability to act as a filter to get rid of all the crap with which I don't wish to be bothered. To put it more directly, I don't want to have to waste huge amounts of my time wading through literally tens of thousands of programs in which I have absolutely no interest so that I can find the ten or twenty I like. Places like Walmart and Target often have bins of low priced, unsorted DVDs through which one may wade endlessly in search of a good title. Even when I was buying DVDs, it wasn't worth the time and hassle.

I also treasure greatly the ability of the TiVo to present to me the things I want even though I don't know I want them. Wishlists and Suggestions are absolutely crucial. It's unacceptable for me to have to wade through a bunch of trash to find an occasional gold nugget, but it is equally unacceptable to require me to know what I want in order for me to find it. The Tivo admirably fulfills both requirements by totally eliminating more than 99% of the crap from my cognizance - I don't even see the names of the programs - while offering me a single source for a large, but not overwhelming, list of excellent programming any time I want.

Simple question: can you set the DTV receiver to record a movie that has not even been released, yet? Say, for example, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows? Two of my TiVos are set to do just that.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ergodic said:


> 3) No cablecards or "tuning adapters".


Not true. All DirecTV receivers have security cards. Since their design and manufacture is much more tightly controlled than CableCards and since DTV has had many more years' experience with these security devices, and since the DTV security devices are much less capable than CableCards, they have generally reported fewer problems. CATV systems are also expepriencing rapidly diminishing numbers of issues with CableCards, as well, especially since all of their own devices now incorporate them. Don't hold your breath, though. The FCC has excluded the Satellite companies from separable security compliance, but that may not continue indefinitely.



ergodic said:


> No more switched digital video.


And none of its advantages. At the moment, Satellite providers have the bandwidth to allow them to provide competitive amounts of programming, but they are limited to at most a few hundred HD video streams. What happens when the Cable Companies start offering tens of thousands of channels? Our local CATV system already hosts many hundreds of streams, when one includes VOD and "Start Over". What happens when the average small business or club - Bob's Bait Shop, or your local bowling league - can afford to go to the CATV company and buy their own, exclusive TV channel? Full HD video shopping at every little brick and mortar will be as easy as Web browsing NewEgg is now, and you and your freinds can relive that fun league Christmas party anywhere, any time - oops, except not on Satellite. What will you say when your employer has their own, encrypted TV channel on the local CATV system and wants to know why you never watch it? In order to compete, satellite systems are going to have to deploy a switched system, as well. With satellite, though, it's going to be a lot more expensive and difficult than for CATV systems.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

lrhorer said:


> What happens when the Cable Companies start offering tens of thousands of channels? What happens when the average small business or club - Bob's Bait Shop, or your local bowling league - can afford to go to the CATV company and buy their own, exclusive TV channel?


What are you smoking? Will your next question be - "what happens when every homeless on a street will be able to buy their own 747 ?"


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

samo said:


> What are you smoking? Will your next question be - "what happens when every homeless on a street will be able to buy their own 747 ?"


In 1904, all the wealth in the world could not have bought a functional full-sized heavier than air craft of any sort. In 1914, all the wealth in the world could not have bought a 747, but a modestly well off hobbyist could buy a serviceable airplane. In 1974, a 747 was expensive enough that no individual could afford them, although a few very large corporations could - there only being about 100 or so in existence at the time. Now your average billionaire can afford a 747, and any solvent upper-middle class individual can afford an ultralight. In 1984, delivering a full time channel on a local CATV system cost several million dollars a year. Adding a channel could take months and represented a huge investment of time, money, and effort. The price now is down into six figures, and a channel can be added literally in a matter of hours. Within a decade, the yearly cost for a full time HD video channel on your local CATV system will be less than $1000 - easily affordable by any small business or moderately sized club. Do the math: a CATV company the size of TWC San Antonio makes a healthy profit on a million dollars a day. This means the cost of delivering the channels perforce must be less than a million dollars a day: much, much less. A million dollars, divided by 100,000 channels comes up to ten dollars a day. SDV has the capability of delivering an unlimited number of channels. (So, of course, does the internet - you might have noticed there are more than a couple of hundred videos on the internet.) How low the CATV companies will ultimately go for subscriber channels will be up to them, but I assure you they will be selling them at bargain basement prices. It would be insane not to, since it will cost them almost nothing to deliver them.

Think for a minute. In the 1950s, a television camera cost more than an average worker's salary for the better part of a decade, and that was only the camera. Now consumer quality video cameras can be had for less than an average worker's pay for a day, and the camera is an entire recording system, not just an input device.

Oh, and just BTW, while the homeless guy can't currently obtain a full time channel for himself, if he can show some form of ID with a local address on it, he *CAN* walk into the local TWC San Antonio production department, obtain instructions on handling a camera they will loan to him, and make his own video to be shown free of cost on the local Public Access channel. I seem to recall he is allowed something like 1/2 hour air time, no more than once a month or some such, to film and express whatever he likes - recorded playback only. They've had people film 30 minutes of lighting sparklers and waving them in front of the camera - not good for the imaging sensors of the camera. They've also had people build and explode a small bomb on camera, a group of women learning to give themselves gynecological exams, and one guy who regularly does things like spend the whole time time playing unbelievably annoying music or playing with his pierced nipple on camera.


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## sampsas (Jul 31, 2009)

Ok so I am going to put my 2 cents in to this debate...
This post in no way is a batch or attack towards Tivo. I love the unit BUT want more then what I can get from it...
I do not get DTV, Dish or cable as I live in Canada and where I live you only have 2 sources for TV... Bell TV or Shaw Direct (both sat) and I do have a ser 2 dt Tivo have loved it for the time we have had it, BUT it only records 1 feed, have to switch to other sat reciever so i can watch a differant show while the tivo is recording the other and it is not HD... With Shaw Direct (referred later to as SD) I get 30 to 40 free HD channels and would love to be able to record some movies in HD but can't!!! Also we do not have Highspeed so netflix ( only NOW avail up here) is out... So I am going to be getting the brand new DSR630 DT HD PVR from SD(has eSATA,USB and Ethernet ports).. They do not charge a monthly fee for the PVR as the US sat comps do so bonus for me... Also Tivo up here is not as promanent as it is in the US... cable cos do not support cable cards so Digital cable with Tivo is out of the question for us up here... So while reading through this thread please take in mind the rural people (like me) that live in the US and ONLY get DTV or Dish for TV and also no highspeed and the Sat DVRs are FAR more attractive to them then you might think... Nothing against Tivo and thier fine support of the Cable comps, Just remember the 1000's and 1000's of people who cannot use the Great internet features of Tivo and try to give a review/comparison with all the facts, and an open mind... As soon as I receive my SD DVR I will be dropping the Tivo service in order to save money, and also remove 2 sat boxes, the Tivo from my A/V setup in the livingroom... Tivo needs to do a better job of customer retention then they do now, yes they lowered my monthly down to $9.95US but still with using my Canadian Credit Card it is more like $13 a month!!!!. SD is giving me the new DVR FREE for 2 years!!!!


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

Cost alone is the biggest obstacle for me - we have 6 DirecTV DH DVRs in service currently. MRV sounds cool and I keep meaning to set it up but I really only watch TV in my family room, the other receivers are in bedrooms and my basement.

Unless I'm adding up the numbers wrong the cost of going with Tivo is quite a bit more than using the sat DVR. I used to run DirecTV Tivo's and I personally prefer the ones from DirecTV but that's subjective - I spend quite a bit just buying the Tivos while of the 6 DirecTV HD receivers I only paid for one and that was $180.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sampsas said:


> Ok so I am going to put my 2 cents in to this debate...
> This post in no way is a batch or attack towards Tivo. I love the unit BUT want more then what I can get from it...
> I do not get DTV, Dish or cable as I live in Canada


well of course that ends the discussion right there.  Canadian TV will not work with TiVo save for IR blasters. Netflix just goyt the rights to stream in Canada.

This would be like a guy from India telling us that Mumbai TV is the way to go. Some things are just assumed in these threads versus having a bunch of extra fine print like 
*except in Canada and rural parts of the US


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> First of all, I'm not going to spend a single plug nickel on a device I can't hack.


So you don't own a toaster, refrigerator, or microwave oven? Did you hack your car? How about your TV? Blu-ray player? 

I'm a hacker, and I haven't hacked a PC in 6 years. Why bother? They are fast enough already. I just need something that web browses and displays my e-mail.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Simple question: can you set the DTV receiver to record a movie that has not even been released, yet? Say, for example, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows? Two of my TiVos are set to do just that.


Not a simple question.

Do you mean a bootlegged copy? The answer is "of course not, officer!"

Or a copy not yet available on DVD? Yes. Via PPV. D* also has VOD. It's not great, but it gets the job done.

Do you mean like a Wishlist? Yes.

Do you mean I should spend $400 + $5/month just so I can have this one opportunity? I can wait a little bit until it comes out on DVD, and save a lot of money.


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## BruceShultes (Oct 2, 2006)

I have an S3, Premiere, and Premiere XL.

I also have 3 different HD DVR's from DirecTV.

The main advantage for DirecTV at this time is that their version of MRV allows you to start watching a show being recorded on another box before it has finished recording. You can have your boxes connected over the DirecTV cables or do it via your own home network. As long as you are not using wireless network adaptors, the speed is comparable, but it comes close if you use wireless N.

Tivo has the advantages of wish list, being able to obtain shows from multiple sources using the internet and still recording one of your shows when it is changed to a different time or channel without your knowledge.

I cannot stand the HD menus available on the newest Tivo's, but you can still use the old ones.

As far as software updates, the DirecTV boxes get them much more ofter. There is normally a new test version available every Friday and Saturday night that you can download to your box to test if you wish to. If you find problems that are bad enough, you can return to the last national release of software the next day.

This seems to allow for much faster and more thorough testing of the software. The more testers you have and the more varied the way they use their boxes, the more likely they are to identify and fix an error before it goes out in a national release.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

BobCamp1 said:


> So you don't own a toaster, refrigerator, or microwave oven?


I am perfectly free to hack them all.



BobCamp1 said:


> Did you hack your car?


Vehicle mods are probably the most common hobbyist hack out there - 3rd party auto equipment is a multi-billion dollar industry, and yes, I have hacked several aspects of my car, including its entertainment system.



BobCamp1 said:


> How about your TV?


Yep, two of them, anyway. I'm free to hack them all, if I choose.



BobCamp1 said:


> Blu-ray player?


That would be difficult. I don't have one. I certainly would not pay money for one I was not allowed to hack, though.



BobCamp1 said:


> I'm a hacker, and I haven't hacked a PC in 6 years. Why bother? They are fast enough already.


Increasing performance is only one very tiny aspect of and reason for hacking. Indeed, many hacks will slow the system down, not speed it up.



BobCamp1 said:


> I just need something that web browses and displays my e-mail.


And for which of those PCs would you be thrown in jail if you decided to exercise your skills? I have one TiVo that is modded, but not hacked - unless you count a drive upgrade. Any time I choose to, however, I could hack it. I also hacked my sister's DirecTiVo. Do that with a leased DVR, and you can be sued or even arrested.

The question is not, "Have I?", or, "Will I?", but "Am I allowed to?" It's called freedom, and the important aspect of freedom is not whether one takes advantage of one right or another, but rather that one can if one chooses.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

BobCamp1 said:


> Not a simple question.
> 
> Do you mean a bootlegged copy? The answer is "of course not, officer!"


No. I mean can you , right this very moment, set your DVR to record Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows?



BobCamp1 said:


> Or a copy not yet available on DVD? Yes. Via PPV. D* also has VOD. It's not great, but it gets the job done.


No, it won't. The first edition has not yet finished production. AFAIK, it hasn't been released to PPV, DVD, VOD, or theaters.



BobCamp1 said:


> Do you mean like a Wishlist? Yes.


The HR250 (or whatever) supports wishlists for titles not in the schedule? That's news to me. Of course I haven't kept up with DTV DVR development, but I was of the very distinct impression only TiVo DVRs have this capability. Enlighten me if I am incorrect.



BobCamp1 said:


> Do you mean I should spend $400 + $5/month just so I can have this one opportunity?


No, of course not. It's just a specific example. I have more than 50 titles in pre-release wishlists, and I also use it to scarf titles that have not been broadcast on a premium channel since 2006 (or in some cases since 2000). The TiVos sit waiting patiently for them to be broadcast, and I never have to worry about it again.



BobCamp1 said:


> I can wait a little bit until it comes out on DVD, and save a lot of money.


I don't buy DVDs any longer, because their resolution is too low. I could get a Blu-Ray player, but that's too inconvenient, not to mention expensive. I have over 2000 titles on my video server right now, plus another 150 on one TiVo or another. At $15 a pop or more for Blu-Ray discs, that comes out at over $30,000, and the least expensive Blu-Ray carousel I know is somewhere around $7000. I would need about a dozen. That puts me close to the $200,000 mark. That $500 is starting to look mighty cheap...


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

BruceShultes said:


> The main advantage for DirecTV at this time is that their version of MRV allows you to start watching a show being recorded on another box before it has finished recording.


OK, but how big an advantage is that? I have thousands of titles at my fingertips. Waiting a few hours for one to finish is no big deal, at all. Indeed, it's extremely rare that I ever get to watch a program within one day of its being recorded, let alone while it is being recorded.

Edit: Hmm, that didn't sound quite the way I meant it. I don't "wait a few hours" for something to finish. I watch something else, and by simple statistics almost surely something better. I'll watch whatever is recording now some time later. Of course, in my case, I don't employ MRV anyway. I offload everything to the server, and then watch wherever I want from there.

Edit #2: I don't download *EVERYTHING* to the server. I download material I want to keep to the server. The rest I watch in-situ.



BruceShultes said:


> You can have your boxes connected over the DirecTV cables or do it via your own home network. As long as you are not using wireless network adaptors, the speed is comparable, but it comes close if you use wireless N.


The network performance of the S3 and particularly the THD are rather poor. Although not usually a major issue for me in an absolute sense, I will say it is one of the Series III platform's worst problems, certainly from the hardware perspective.



BruceShultes said:


> Tivo has the advantages of wish list, being able to obtain shows from multiple sources using the internet and still recording one of your shows when it is changed to a different time or channel without your knowledge.


While significant, there are a great many more than that. The greatest breadth and depth of features are the 3rd party applications.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> I have no problem finding content to stream on Netflix especailly as they add more TV shows. My current instant queue is over 150 titles so I dont know what you are talking about.
> 
> http://instantwatcher.com/


did I say anything abnout TV shows?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> did I say anything abnout TV shows?


Did I say anything about only finding TV to stream? Most of my queue is movies. Since adding more TV my queue is up to 229 titles with most of that being movies.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> Have you tried the streaming Netflix movies? They are the lamest set of movies that you could ever assemble in one place. Almost nothing you would want to see is available. I do agree with you but the streaming Netflix option is joke today.


Their selection of stream-able movies is getting better and better. Had a couple of DVDs in the queue come up as stream-able. Watched 'em that way and cut the wait for the discs.

Yes, the netflix player sucks on the Tivo. That's why I used a 7MC setup to watch it instead. It's just galling how horrible the netflix streamer is on a Tivo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> did I say anything abnout TV shows?


I am going to go call Netflix right now and cancel and let them know they do not have the content HiDefGator wants to watch


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> I have no problem finding content to stream on Netflix especailly as they add more TV shows. My current instant queue is over 150 titles so I dont know what you are talking about.


Uh-huh. A whole 150 titles, huh? Both of my S3 Tivos have more than that on each of their hard drives.



innocentfreak said:


> Did I say anything about only finding TV to stream? Most of my queue is movies. Since adding more TV my queue is up to 229 titles with most of that being movies.


Ooh, hurt me. I have over 2000 titles on my server and TiVos, and that is after cleaning out a whole bunch I no longer wanted. Also, what fraction of those 150 / 299 are HD? I haven't tried Netflix, but when I tried Amazon, it was only SD, and the PQ was horrible, even for SD. Perhaps Amazon has improved and perhaps Netflix has a lot more HD content, but all but a very small handful of the 2000+ titles I have are very high quality 1080i at up to 20 Mbps. It's not Blu-Ray, but it's very good.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

Not sure how bragging about copyright violation is a point of honor...

Nor is there much point to pissing matches about quantity of content or it's resolution.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Ooh, hurt me. I have over 2000 titles on my server and TiVos, and that is after cleaning out a whole bunch I no longer wanted.


oh cool, since I dropped Netflix since HiDefGator did not like iT, I need a new video service. Do you have a web site where I sign up for a streaming service?


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

They should rename this thread to "Watch grown men fight like children"


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wkearney99 said:


> Not sure how bragging about copyright violation is a point of honor...


I am not violating any copyrights.



wkearney99 said:


> Nor is there much point to pissing matches about quantity of content or it's resolution.


You are missing the point. NetFlix and Amazon do *NOT* provide an acceptable alternative. Spending significant amounts of money on quality video systems and then getting crappy video to play on them is just foolish. Needlessly limiting one's selection palette is not an acceptable thing to do, let alone a desirable one. If Netflix and Amazon had 6 or even 5 figures worth of HD titles that I liked available and could stream it reliably to my systems - TiVo or otherwise - without a major selection hassle, then I would be thrilled to pay for the privilege.

Am I spoiled? No doubt I am, but the fact is less than HD quality video is downright hard to watch, and given a choice between watching most SD video and reading a book, I'll read the book. Some DVDs are marginally passable, but (and again, unless they have improved the video a whole heck of a lot) the content I tried from Amazon was just totally unwatchable.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

vurbano said:


> They should rename this thread to "Watch grown men fight like children"


I'm not fighting with anyone. I am just saying that before I will agree some alternative is reasonable, it must first be an acceptable one, and from what I have seen, none of these proposed alternatives come anywhere close to being acceptable. I wish they were. It would save me some money.


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## sampsas (Jul 31, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well of course that ends the discussion right there.  Canadian TV will not work with TiVo save for IR blasters. Netflix just goyt the rights to stream in Canada.
> 
> This would be like a guy from India telling us that Mumbai TV is the way to go. Some things are just assumed in these threads versus having a bunch of extra fine print like
> *except in Canada and rural parts of the US


Ok so what you are saying is that with only 69,902,289 people in the USA that have highspeed ALL of the other 200,000,000+ people that do not get highspeed in the US none of them are using Tivo??? 
Yes As I said Canadian cable comps do not support cable cards (well except for Compton Communications only 1 who does Tivo HD).
This thread started out comparing DTV DVR with the Tivo.. I support the op on this one as some of the providers are thinking ahead (unlike Tivo) and trying to get more advanced then Tivo is right now... 
How long has Tivo been in the DVR bizz??? My ReplayTV unit (which is quite old) does more then my Tivo does...

I had 2 Tivos at one time and the multi room thing was VERY slow and they were wired network not wireless... So if the DTV units are faster at being able to do the multi room idea then good for them!!! Tivo needs to work on this as they are going to fall behind and loose the battle...
Hasn't tivo been loosing customers???


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> I'm not fighting with anyone. I am just saying that before I will agree some alternative is reasonable, it must first be an acceptable one, and from what I have seen, none of these proposed alternatives come anywhere close to being acceptable. I wish they were. It would save me some money.


One has to make reasonable choices. Whinging about what isn't available is a waste of time and energy. But hey, feel free to waste it. That and the content involved here is basically just entertainment. Quibbling about "quality" of most entertainment content is a laughable argument. It smacks of the same ludicrous arguments the "audiophile" masturbators go on about. Fundamentally it's just more Hollywood garbage. The fact that it's 1080p ends up just being lipstick on the proverbial pig.

Meanwhile the rest of us grasp the compromises of price and convenience.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sampsas said:


> I had 2 Tivos at one time and the multi room thing was VERY slow and they were wired network not wireless... So if the DTV units are faster at being able to do the multi room idea then good for them!!! Tivo needs to work on this as they are going to fall behind and loose the battle...


TiVo's new hardware is focused on digital cable with use of cable cards. That new hardware has fast MRV. I can MRV any show and start watching right away and skip any/all comeercials. If I had watched part of the show on other box, TiVo will ask me if I want to MRV from that paused point.

anyhow comparing *old* TiVo hardware that can work with set top box in Canada is just beside the point


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wkearney99 said:


> One has to make reasonable choices.


Oh, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. [/sarcasm] Now let me tell you something. Unnecessary compromises in quality are not reasonable. In fact, there is a word for it: Mediocrity.



wkearney99 said:


> Whinging about what isn't available is a waste of time and energy. But hey, feel free to waste it.


I didn't whine about anything. I'm not even complaining about the content on Amazon or Netflix. I am merely rejecting it as being unacceptably inferior, unacceptably difficult to manage, and unacceptably low in volume of titles.



wkearney99 said:


> That and the content involved here is basically just entertainment.


If it weren't entertainment, then the picture quality would not be of significant concern. News, weather and emergency broadcasts are perfectly acceptable in grainy, distorted, washed-out black and white. It is the fact the content is entertainment that allows PQ to be of greater relative concern.



wkearney99 said:


> Quibbling about "quality" of most entertainment content is a laughable argument.


Your claiming it to be laughable does not make it so. More to the point, I take it your TV is a 12" B&W set from the 1950s? If the PQ doesn't matter, then why did you waste a pretty healthy chunk of money on a newer TV?



wkearney99 said:


> It smacks of the same ludicrous arguments the "audiophile" masturbators go on about. Fundamentally it's just more Hollywood garbage. The fact that it's 1080p ends up just being lipstick on the proverbial pig.


Bull pookey. Poor quality video is physically tiresome to watch. Entertainment is supposed to be enjoyed by the consumer, not make them uncomfortable. Blurry, indistinct, poorly saturated video is not enjoyable.

Oh, and BTW, for most content, 1080p is indeed not significantly distinguishable from 1080i. Only if the video is fast-changing or viewed under certain lighting conditions can most people distinguish between 1080i and 1080p. The junk I saw from Amazon, however, is truly *horrible*. It's much worse than most analog SD video.



wkearney99 said:


> Meanwhile the rest of us grasp the compromises of price and convenience.


I grasp the fact that if they are unnecessary, then they are unacceptable. To be sure, there are plenty of people who genuinely cannot afford such luxuries. Indeed, there are members of my own family who cannot. Such is not the topic of this thread, however. No one here has said they were too broke to afford the content, only that they did not like spending the money. *I* don't like spending the money, either. If I could obtain acceptable performance for less, then I would, but nothing I have seen suggested proposes acceptable performance from what I have seen.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

sampsas said:


> Ok so what you are saying is that with only 69,902,289 people in the USA that have highspeed ALL of the other 200,000,000+ people that do not get highspeed in the US none of them are using Tivo???


Your numbers are way, way off. High speed broadband internet service is not generally delivered to an individual. It is delivered to a household. Taking the 70 Million number to be correct, that equates to about 175 Million TVs watched by over 200 Million out of the 300 Million or so people in the U.S. Additionally, I expect the proportion of TiVo owners who do not have broadband service to those who do is considerably smaller than the same metric of Americans at large.



sampsas said:


> This thread started out comparing DTV DVR with the Tivo.. I support the op on this one as some of the providers are thinking ahead (unlike Tivo) and trying to get more advanced then Tivo is right now...
> How long has Tivo been in the DVR bizz??? My ReplayTV unit (which is quite old) does more then my Tivo does...


Your arguments would be more compelling and your assessments more credible if you would bother to make sure your grammar is proper. Saying something, "does more then[sic] my Tivo does", hardly inspires confidence. More importantly, failing to demonstrate in what way the Replay is superior fails to make your point, even if it is some respects true. Finally, it takes a remarkable amount of inconsistency to praise a platform that has failed (Replay TV) over one that has outlasted it many years (TiVo), then turn right around and pontificate that the viable platform is destined to fail because it is inferior to the failed one.



sampsas said:


> I had 2 Tivos at one time and the multi room thing was VERY slow and they were wired network not wireless...


What version of TiVo? The S3 and even the THD units exhibit pretty snappy MRV. Both are slower when it comes to TTCB. Indeed, the TTCB performance of the THD ios not really acceptable for any high bandwidth MPEG II video, and the S3 is marginal. The Premier is reportedly considerably faster than either.



sampsas said:


> So if the DTV units are faster at being able to do the multi room idea then good for them!!!


To be sure, but again, this is not - by a long shot - the only measure of a DVR's performance. Indeed, for those of us, like me, who do not employ MRV at all, it's completely irrelevant.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> oh cool, since I dropped Netflix since HiDefGator did not like iT, I need a new video service. Do you have a web site where I sign up for a streaming service?


Me, personally? I have several websites. I do not have illicit content on any of them, nor will the bandwidth of any of them support high def streaming video. I really don't see your point. Amazon and to be best of my knowledge Netflix do not meet my requirements. That is why I have CATV service. I am not thrilled with it, either, but it is AFAICT superior to any other service out there.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> I grasp the fact that if they are unnecessary, then they are unacceptable.


No, you've made an assumption about what is or isn't necessary, ignoring a whole host of other facts. Your assuming about their necessity doesn't make your point truthful. The service doesn't meet your "needs", that's fine. Meanwhile a vast majority of others find it quite acceptable and useful. Suffer without it and hold out for your perfection. Meanwhile everyone else likes what they see. Good luck wasting your time and energies.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo's new hardware is focused on digital cable with use of cable cards. That new hardware has fast MRV. I can MRV any show and start watching right away and skip any/all comeercials. If I had watched part of the show on other box, TiVo will ask me if I want to MRV from that paused point.
> 
> anyhow comparing *old* TiVo hardware that can work with set top box in Canada is just beside the point


It's still apples and oranges. TiVo copies the program over the network. DirecTV streams it. While MRV might be more functional on the Premiere, it still varies in performance based on wired / wireless, HD / SD, Digital / Analog, etc. DirecTV's implementation allows me to fast forward and skip to tick to ANY point in the show, right away.

It's not that TiVo MRV is bad, but I think directv really nailed it with their MRV...

ETA, plus DirecTV's MPEG4 compression allows for more efficient transfers and uses a lot less disk space.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> It's still apples and oranges. TiVo copies the program over the network. DirecTV streams it. While MRV might be more functional on the Premiere, it still varies in performance based on wired / wireless, HD / SD, Digital / Analog, etc. DirecTV's implementation allows me to fast forward and skip to tick to ANY point in the show, right away.
> 
> It's not that TiVo MRV is bad, but I think directv really nailed it with their MRV...
> 
> ETA, plus DirecTV's MPEG4 compression allows for more efficient transfers and uses a lot less disk space.


I thought most of the cable providers flagged the copy byte on the cable card for most shows making MRV on the Premiere useless for most shows for most folks.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> I thought most of the cable providers flagged the copy byte on the cable card for most shows making MRV on the Premiere useless for most shows for most folks.


That is a broad generalization that has no detail behind it. We see lots of folks complaining here - but that is this forum skewing reality as always. Few will bother to post that their local cable is not flagging things and of those that do have the problem and post here - how many cable companies and how many areas of the country do they actually represent?

@Adam115 - unless I have already watched part of some show I have no desire to be able to skip to the middle of it and would rather have the full, standard TiVo trick play.
Streaming is important but really only to overcome the copy flag limitations where they exist


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> how many cable companies and how many areas of the country do they actually represent?


Well that's why I'm asking the question. 

I pretty much figured MRV was dead on the Tivo from what I read here.

I mean doesn't the following providers flag the copy bit?

Comcast
FIOS
Cox
Time Warner
ATT Uverse
Charter

OR at least are in the process of rolling that important consumer feature out?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> I thought most of the cable providers flagged the copy byte on the cable card for most shows making MRV on the Premiere useless for most shows for most folks.





trip1eX said:


> Well that's why I'm asking the question.
> 
> I pretty much figured MRV was dead on the Tivo from what I read here.


None of what you posted was in the form of a question until I called you yet again on posting blatant over generalizations without your having any real information to back it up.

HINT - TiVo series 3 and up are not even compatible with AT&T Uverse


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> DirecTV's implementation allows me to fast forward and skip to tick to ANY point in the show, right away.


I find trick play on the H24, of a show stored on the HR24 and served via streaming to be slow and clunky in comparison to the equivalent on a copied SD show on my S2 TiVo DVRs. Trick play directly on the HR24 is acceptable, but this thread is about the whole home system, so playback on the H24 is what counts in this discussion. It works, once you mentally compensate for the extra 500 to 1000 msec delay imposed by the remote server latency, but is not nearly as smooth and I often find myself pressing buttons one or two times too many because of the latency.

If it were a copy, I wouldn't have to deal with that. So there are advantages and disadvanteges to each method, streaming or copying.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

trip1eX said:


> Well that's why I'm asking the question.
> 
> I pretty much figured MRV was dead on the Tivo from what I read here.
> 
> ...


FiOS doesn't. They recently did on channel 789, but that has since gone away.

AT&T Uverse isn't compatible since it is IPTV.

The rest will vary by market and my channel and show even among the same providers. There is no master list that I know of showing what networks, channels, providers, regions, shows, etc are flagged.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Adam1115 said:


> DirecTV's implementation allows me to fast forward and skip to tick to ANY point in the show, right away.


I would like to have that feature on Tivo for when I have previously fallen asleep while watching a program and want to quickly get back to where I left off the next time I watch the program.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

CuriousMark said:


> I find trick play on the H24, of a show stored on the HR24 and served via streaming to be slow and clunky in comparison to the equivalent on a copied SD show on my S2 TiVo DVRs. Trick play directly on the HR24 is acceptable, but this thread is about the whole home system, so playback on the H24 is what counts in this discussion. It works, once you mentally compensate for the extra 500 to 1000 msec delay imposed by the remote server latency, but is not nearly as smooth and I often find myself pressing buttons one or two times too many because of the latency.
> 
> If it were a copy, I wouldn't have to deal with that. So there are advantages and disadvanteges to each method, streaming or copying.


So now we're comparing apples and bananas. I use DirecTV whole house with two DVRs, which is comparable to TiVo's solution which requires two TiVos. I don't experience any delays or latency.

You're comparing using a non-DVR to watch content on a DVR, which a TiVo can't do. Of course DirecTV streams to a non-DVR better than a TiVo, TiVo can't do that! How could you copy a program to a STB with no hard drive...?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> Well that's why I'm asking the question.
> 
> I pretty much figured MRV was dead on the Tivo from what I read here.
> 
> ...


Comcast, the largest MVPD, does not except for the premium channels.

MRV is NOT dead for a large number of customers, but it severely impacts others.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> So now we're comparing apples and bananas. I use DirecTV whole house with two DVRs, which is comparable to TiVo's solution which requires two TiVos. I don't experience any delays or latency.
> 
> You're comparing using a non-DVR to watch content on a DVR, which a TiVo can't do. Of course DirecTV streams to a non-DVR better than a TiVo, TiVo can't do that! How could you copy a program to a STB with no hard drive...?


Using two DVRs, I would expect playing content recorded on the other DVR, not the one in front of you, to also have the same latency. Please test it and see. This is still an apples to apples comparison, I am talking about trick play of streamed content, vs trick play of local content, whether done on an H24 or a DVR, it should not matter. I know the integrated play list makes it hard for you to tell which DVR you are playing back, but I am confident you will be able to tell the difference in trick play performance.

The difference is not huge and I only consider it slightly objectionable. It certainly does not render the service unusable or even undesirable, just not as good as a local copy implementation.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> FiOS doesn't. They recently did on channel 789, but that has since gone away.
> 
> AT&T Uverse isn't compatible since it is IPTV.
> 
> The rest will vary by market and my channel and show even among the same providers. There is no master list that I know of showing what networks, channels, providers, regions, shows, etc are flagged.


Wow. Thanks. Man from reading a few threads I totally gleaned the wrong impression that many of the big guys were now flagging the copy bit.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

trip1eX said:


> Wow. Thanks. Man from reading a few threads I totally gleaned the wrong impression that many of the big guys were now flagging the copy bit.


The problem is people say everything is marked and while it may be for the most part they are talking about their specific providers and the specific shows they watch. It could also be the SD or only HD channel and not both. There is no user friendly tool for checking if a provider in your town will be copy protected and what actually is copy protected.

Someone really should set up a web page where you can enter your zipcode, provider, and mark what channels or shows that are marked.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> Wow. Thanks. Man from reading a few threads I totally gleaned the wrong impression that many of the big guys were now flagging the copy bit.


sorry, I was in a pissy mood on my prior post.

this forum has a tendency to move toward a group think that the perception of what is in these threads makes up the total reality. The reality is typically not that at all.

I am willing to bet a lot of users of TiVo DVRs do not even think about MRV. many likely watch the show while it is still being recorded.

Versus us DVR freaks who want to know the features so well, we go to an online forum about it.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

CuriousMark said:


> Using two DVRs, I would expect playing content recorded on the other DVR, not the one in front of you, to also have the same latency. Please test it and see. This is still an apples to apples comparison, I am talking about trick play of streamed content, vs trick play of local content, whether done on an H24 or a DVR, it should not matter. I know the integrated play list makes it hard for you to tell which DVR you are playing back, but I am confident you will be able to tell the difference in trick play performance.
> 
> The difference is not huge and I only consider it slightly objectionable. It certainly does not render the service unusable or even undesirable, just not as good as a local copy implementation.


It does matter, it's been talked about on DBStalk. MRV on the H24 isn't as smooth as the HR. Maybe they cache it a little? No clue. But it is different. I cannot tell the difference in performance. It does take a couple of seconds to start a show.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> sorry, I was in a pissy mood on my prior post.


I noticed. We all get that way, sometimes.



ZeoTiVo said:


> this forum has a tendency to move toward a group think that the perception of what is in these threads makes up the total reality. The reality is typically not that at all.


People in general rather tend to think their experience and biases are typical or even universal. A large number of the posts in this very thread exemplify this.



ZeoTiVo said:


> I am willing to bet a lot of users of TiVo DVRs do not even think about MRV. many likely watch the show while it is still being recorded.


I've pointed this out before, but anyone who only has 1 DVR and no remote device could not care less about MRV, one way or the other. While multiuple DVR / remote device households are much more common than in 2006, it's still not the norm. It is important to realize this is a TiVo hobbyist's forum. I think it is far, far more likely an individual who frequents this forum will own two DVRs than DVR owners in general.



ZeoTiVo said:


> Versus us DVR freaks who want to know the features so well, we go to an online forum about it.


Well, I was a TiVo enthusiast and a member of this forum long before I ever owned a second TiVo. Even discounting the time between when I purchased my S1 TiVo and when TiVo came out with MRV, there still were quite some years that I only owned 1 TiVo while others were making happy use of MRV. Again, even as an avid TiVo enthusiast, I still don't have the near rabid obsession with MRV others in this forum do. As long as TTCB worked, MRV could disappear tomorrrow, and I would not have a fit. I'm not saying it would be a good thing, just that from my perspective it would not make the TiVo unusable, the fact I have owned multiple S3 class TiVos for more than 3 1/2 years notwithstanding.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wkearney99 said:


> No, you've made an assumption about what is or isn't necessary, ignoring a whole host of other facts.


I haven't made any assumptions about anything. The term "necessary" denotes in and of itself a highly subjective metric. What is necessary varies from individual to individual.



wkearney99 said:


> Your assuming about their necessity doesn't make your point truthful.


I am going to be charitable and assume you did not mean this as written, but meant to say, "Accurate", rather than, "Truthful". If not, then I demand you point out any instance where I have been untruthful.



wkearney99 said:


> The service doesn't meet your "needs", that's fine.


A good definition of "necessary" is, "attributes without which the needs of an individual are not met."



wkearney99 said:


> Meanwhile a vast majority of others find it quite acceptable and useful.


1. What evidence do you have to support that statement? A large number no doubt do, but you will need to provide verifiable facts and figures the number represents the vast majority.

2. Statistical relationships have no relevance to any individual. The majority of people do not find insulin injections to be a necessity. The minority with severe diabetes find them an absolute necessity, the fact the majority do not completely notwithstanding.

3. As I just pointed out, this is a hobbyist's forum, heavily populated by fans of the TiVo platform. To be sure, there are plenty of members here who still have S2 or even a few who have S1 TiVos as their primary DVR. I suspect (notice, unlike you, I do not claim to know this for a fact) most of the people here have TiVos and TVs capable of HD reception. More than half of all TVs now are in fact HD capable, so someone besides me finds HD reception to be more desirable than SD.

4. A great many people find the food at McDonald's to be acceptable. This does not make it "good".

The fact I or anyone else has higher standards than you does not in any way give you proper leave to sneer at our level of sophistication. I suggest the next time you think to use terms such emotionally loaded terms as "laughable", "ludicrous", "masturbators", "pig", or "untruthful" you consider that such invective does nothing to support your arguments, but it does say something about your ability to carry on a mature, well reasoned debate.



wkearney99 said:


> Suffer without it and hold out for your perfection.


My position does not require any suffering (another emotionally loaded term, btw) on my part. Indeed, a major part of my criticism of the proposed offerings is the dearth of content - a fact you blithely ignore. Another major part is the fact the content offered produces uncomfortable results. "Suffering" is too strong a term for either side, but to the extent it is applicable at all, it applies more to the poor content available from Amazon, which is at best tiresome. I am also not holding out for anything whatsoever. I pay for superior content and receive it without delay. If I could receive that same content as easily and for less money, then I would choose that vector to obtain the content I want.



wkearney99 said:


> Meanwhile everyone else likes what they see. Good luck wasting your time and energies.


The arrogant tone of your posts is well exemplified by this statement. You pretend to speak for everyone, and state baldly that I (or perhaps a very few like me) am the only one who chooses CATV service over Netflix and Amazon. You do not speak for everyone, or indeed for the majority. Although significant numbers of people do take advantage of these VOD services, the vast majority clearly *DO NOT* feel such services can take the place of CATV or Satellite service. To be sure, I am not claiming the tens of millions of people who elect CATV or Satellite service all do so for the same reasons I do, but the simple fact is your "rest of us" comprises a minority, not "the vast majority".


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> Wow. Thanks. Man from reading a few threads I totally gleaned the wrong impression that many of the big guys were now flagging the copy bit.


Many of them are. What percentage of programs have CCI byte restrictions set, I really don't know, but then it is really an irrelevant question. Even if 99% of providers were setting the byte on all but OTA content, if your provider happened to be the 1 out of 100 that does not, you would be sitting pretty. Conversely, even if it is only a small fraction of channels overall that have the byte set, but you happen to be on a system that sets the byte on channels you want to transfer, then you are behind the 8-ball.

The answer - and even it is only a partial one - is, "One must check with one's local provider to determine which channels have the CCI byte set." The bad news is, you as a subscriber will probably not have any access to anyone at your local CATV company who even knows what the CCI byte is or what impact it has on revording with a TiVo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Many of them are.


*sigh* is this not where this started?


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## johnlvs2run (Apr 6, 2006)

TolloNodre said:


> Just an FYI - Dishpointer website is free and covers all satellites:
> http://www.dishpointer.com/





restart88 said:


> Thanks for the link! I have had no luck trying to point at a Galaxy bird for my FTA and this site showed me a 200' obstruction I never knew was there. I thought the problem was trees. Now I know just where to aim to avoid that obstruction.


Thanks to you both for that site.

Restart, did you move the dish to pick up the FTA satellite?

There is a vacant house two away with a tall ham antenna directly in the line of sight from my roof.


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