# Time Warner posts application for a Bring-Your-Own-Box credit



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

TWC has posted a webpage allowing you to apply for a Bring-Your-Own-Box credit if you subscribe to a cable package that would otherwise include a cable box, but you use a TiVo instead. Although other cable companies seem to be giving customers this FCC-mandated credit automatically, at TWC you may have to apply for it.

The TWC BYOB credit application is here. The main webpage that discusses overall retail device support is here.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

This is FCC mandated?


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

aadam101 said:


> This is FCC mandated?


Yes; here is the text of the FCC's recent ruling (which went into effect today, Aug 8):


> Accordingly, we also adopt a rule that requires cable operators to reduce the price of packages that include set-top box rentals by the cost of a set-top box rental for customers who use retail devices, and prohibits cable operators from assessing service fees on consumer-owned devices that are not imposed on leased devices. These price reductions must reflect the portion of the package price that is reasonably allocable to the device lease fee.


----------



## hammer32 (Jul 4, 2001)

That's interesting, I just got TW two weeks ago, so I haven't seen my first bill yet. Im curious to see what im being charged for.

While troubleshooting some missing channels I had a CSR tell me I couldn't get any HD channels with my CableCard TiVo HD and SDV tuner, I tried to explain that I was in fact watching HD while we were on the phone, but she got really angry so I ended my TiVo education program. 

She told me that I was paying for an HD box due to subscribing to the HD package, but that since I didn't have the HD box and 'couldn't get HD channels' she said she took those off my bill.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Another classic case of the cable industry trying to abide by the letter of the rules without actually making it any easier on anyone who doesn't want to use their equipment.

TWC customers should complain about this to the FCC. TWC actually has the nerve to require the customer to request something that they're required to do by law while asking the customer to supply information that they should already have. 

http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm


----------



## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

I just filled out the survey. We will see what happens. Hopefully they will not mess up my account. For some reason every time someone looks over my account I lose service and have to call and have the cablecards "hit" again to get service back.


----------



## c_franklin (Jan 24, 2010)

It's no surprise, TWC isn't making this one easy. I spoke with them on Saturday about options to lower my bill. The sales person didn't mention this. 

Last night, I spoke with them on another subject. They confirmed that this was a valid offer and I qualified. However, they couldn't give me the discount. You can only take advantage of this "special" offer if you fill out the form and wait for a sales person to call you back. I am still waiting.


----------



## rahnbo (Sep 12, 2010)

hammer32 said:


> While troubleshooting some missing channels I had a CSR tell me I couldn't get any HD channels with my CableCard TiVo HD and SDV tuner, I tried to explain that I was in fact watching HD while we were on the phone, but she got really angry so I ended my TiVo education program.


This is another thing we should really complain about but not sure where? The FCC? I've never had a conversation with TW via phone or in person where they didn't take a dig, slam, or flat out lie and misinform about Tivo.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

So Verizon FIOS should automatically credit me? I have two Tivo boxes instead of their box.


----------



## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

Same thing with Frontier FiOS. When does this credit go into effect?


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Found a link:

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2011/db0809/DA-11-1373A1.pdf

I'll go check out Verizon's site too. I doubt I will find anything there.

Depending on how big the discount is, this might make Tivo look more attractive.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

rahnbo said:


> This is another thing we should really complain about but not sure where? The FCC? I've never had a conversation with TW via phone or in person where they didn't take a dig, slam, or flat out lie and misinform about Tivo.


Any misleading or inaccurate information about CableCARD availability or capability would be grounds for a complaint to the FCC. See the link aadam101 posted. Anything that makes it harder to get a CableCARD than a cable box is grounds for a complaint.


----------



## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

As an Update..... A very confused lady from TWC left a message on my home phone. She also said she tried my cell phone, which she did not. Anyway she left a message and said she received the email I sent (I filled out the online form included in this tread) about problems I was having with my cablecard. She said she couldn't figure out where I was located and that I should call her back to see if I am even in their service area........ 

I am not sure if I will pursue this or not... every time I try to talk to them about my account they f*** up my service so I don't know if it is worth it. But I also know that they want me to give up.....


----------



## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

aadam101 said:


> So Verizon FIOS should automatically credit me? I have two Tivo boxes instead of their box.


This would not apply to FiOS. Verizon doesn't require that you take the STB, TWC does. For example, when I had TWC I was offered TV and Internet for $70, if I took their box and stuck it in a closet. If I didn't take their box, the pricing was ~$100. They would provide zero discounts without the STB. It was a required part of the package to get the discount. The box was included in the package price, but it obviously goes against the CableCard idea. One thing to note is one time I saw an itemized bill for my account. It had charges for everything (including the remote an all) that added up to the $70. It had a $5/6 charge for the STB on it, so internally TWC was charging for the box. The user just couldn't see it. I actually got them to credit that amount to me a few years ago, but I made changes to my account and lost the credit.

Currently, I have Cox and to be honest, I think that people should go after Cox for a similar thing. They discount the first STB, but the discount is not given for a CableCard... I am in the process of getting FiOS at my new place, so I probably won't push it too much. Unless of course I wind up having to go with Cox due to the Verizon strike. I can't wait too long for my service.


----------



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

socrplyr said:


> This would not apply to FiOS. Verizon doesn't require that you take the STB, TWC does. For example, when I had TWC I was offered TV and Internet for $70, if I took their box and stuck it in a closet. If I didn't take their box, the pricing was ~$100. They would provide zero discounts without the STB. It was a required part of the package to get the discount. The box was included in the package price, but it obviously goes against the CableCard idea. One thing to note is one time I saw an itemized bill for my account. It had charges for everything (including the remote an all) that added up to the $70. It had a $5/6 charge for the STB on it, so internally TWC was charging for the box. The user just couldn't see it. I actually got them to credit that amount to me a few years ago, but I made changes to my account and lost the credit.
> 
> Currently, I have Cox and to be honest, I think that people should go after Cox for a similar thing. They discount the first STB, but the discount is not given for a CableCard... I am in the process of getting FiOS at my new place, so I probably won't push it too much. Unless of course I wind up having to go with Cox due to the Verizon strike. I can't wait too long for my service.


Thank you for the clarification. Verizon forces you to take their router even if you don't use it. I tried to return it since I wasn't using it and they refused to take it back. Too bad I can't get a discount on that.


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

dave13077 said:


> As an Update..... A very confused lady from TWC left a message on my home phone. She also said she tried my cell phone, which she did not. Anyway she left a message and said she received the email I sent (I filled out the online form included in this tread) about problems I was having with my cablecard. She said she couldn't figure out where I was located and that I should call her back to see if I am even in their service area........
> 
> I am not sure if I will pursue this or not... every time I try to talk to them about my account they f*** up my service so I don't know if it is worth it. But I also know that they want me to give up.....


Wow! Such inept handling of an FCC mandate is completely unacceptable. I really encourage you to pursue this; at a minimum, file a complaint with the FCC. And watch your TWC bill...if you don't see a credit show up (assuming you are due one), I hope you follow-up with TWC too. We shouldn't let companies get away with such things.

If you complain to the FCC, be sure to point out all the ways TWC erred:


Lack of training, resulting in a "confused" service rep
Not using all of the available contact numbers, and lying about it
Confusing "filling out a web form" with "sending an email"
Misrepresenting your request for a BYOB credit as "having a problem with your CableCARD"
Not being able to determine your location or service area despite your having given them your service address, city, state, ZIP, and service phone number on their own web form
Requiring you to call them back, thus forcing you to perform yet another customer-initiated action in order to get an FCC-mandated credit that really should have been given automatically without any action on your part


----------



## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

socrplyr said:


> This would not apply to FiOS. Verizon doesn't require that you take the STB, TWC does. For example, when I had TWC I was offered TV and Internet for $70, if I took their box and stuck it in a closet. If I didn't take their box, the pricing was ~$100. They would provide zero discounts without the STB. It was a required part of the package to get the discount. The box was included in the package price, but it obviously goes against the CableCard idea. One thing to note is one time I saw an itemized bill for my account. It had charges for everything (including the remote an all) that added up to the $70. It had a $5/6 charge for the STB on it, so internally TWC was charging for the box. The user just couldn't see it. I actually got them to credit that amount to me a few years ago, but I made changes to my account and lost the credit.
> 
> Currently, I have Cox and to be honest, I think that people should go after Cox for a similar thing. They discount the first STB, but the discount is not given for a CableCard... I am in the process of getting FiOS at my new place, so I probably won't push it too much. Unless of course I wind up having to go with Cox due to the Verizon strike. I can't wait too long for my service.


Gotcha, I see where you're coming from on this.


----------



## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

So how does this work if you need a cablecard? Our provider is charging us $7.95 a month. Said it was for the maintenance and tech support of the cable card. Same price for their HD box. How much should I be paying?


----------



## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

gamo62 said:


> So how does this work if you need a cablecard? Our provider is charging us $7.95 a month. Said it was for the maintenance and tech support of the cable card. Same price for their HD box. How much should I be paying?


The maintenance and tech support is only that expensive to them since they don't really want to support it. $7.95 would be too high especially if their STB costs that much. Their STB also has a CableCard in it with the same maintenance cost. Most providers charge between $2 and $4 per month. I would complain to the FCC that they are overcharging since it is the same price as their STB which is a CableCard + box. Who do you have?


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

gamo62 said:


> So how does this work if you need a cablecard? Our provider is charging us $7.95 a month. Said it was for the maintenance and tech support of the cable card. Same price for their HD box. How much should I be paying?


As of Aug 8, they are prohibited by the FCC from imposing any charge on your CableCARD+TiVo setup that they don't also charge on their leased settop boxes. Since they said your high CableCARD fee was due to maintenance and tech support of your particular CableCARD setup, this would be in violation of the FCC's rule. File a complaint with the FCC, then write your cable company and reference the FCC complaint along with a copy of the FCC advisory.


----------



## jiffyspam (Feb 19, 2010)

One of the FCC mandates is for reps to not mislead customers with misinformation on non-leased equipment. See the below quote from the fine print on the TWC website.

"Customer-owned equipment, and/or unapproved equipment, may result in diminished service quality."


FCC Ruling States:

"The new rules require cable operators to provide accurate information about retail set-top boxes and ensure that
consumers are treated similarly, whether they choose to buy a retail device or rent a device from their cable provider."


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

"Diminished Service Quality" could be seen as a lack of VOD.


----------



## jiffyspam (Feb 19, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> "Diminished Service Quality" could be seen as a lack of VOD.


Could be, but the way it's worded certainly makes it seem like your picture won't be as good.

Not that anyone reads the fine print anyway...


----------



## mcorelis (Feb 3, 2003)

Filled out the BYOB form a couple of days ago. TW called and told me I had to call another number. Got a rep who had not heard of the BYOB credit. Put me on hold for 5 minutes. Then explained the TW was graciously allowing me to get a package that previously was not open to CC users and my credit was in the package. I asked why there was no indication of this on the bill and was told that that was the way they do it. Since I had the package prior to the FCC rule, I asked how that could be. No answer. Or at best, a bad explaination.


----------



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

mcorelis said:


> Filled out the BYOB form a couple of days ago. TW called and told me I had to call another number. Got a rep who had not heard of the BYOB credit. Put me on hold for 5 minutes. Then explained the TW was graciously allowing me to get a package that previously was not open to CC users and my credit was in the package. I asked why there was no indication of this on the bill and was told that that was the way they do it. Since I had the package prior to the FCC rule, I asked how that could be. No answer. Or at best, a bad explaination.


I filled mine out more than a couple of days ago and have heard nothing. But if I do get a response I expect it to be on a par with yours. I'm also getting a bundle price and I feel lucky about that. For the first year I got no bundle and paid a lot more. I thought they just didn't offer bundles to TiVo users.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Yeah, TWC called me back today and said I did not qualify for a discount. I need to check my bill...

Note all the CATV company needs to do to get around the FCC mandate is to raise their price for their tier services and offer the STB or DVR "free". Most MSOs are already subsidizing the cost of their terminal hardware with the base fees of the services. This in and of itself makes 3rd party devices less attractive, since the STB is perceived to be "free" and the DVR is perceived as "cheaper", the fact neither is the case notwithstanding. It's too bad it is probably not practical to force the CATV companies to bring their hardware fees in line with their actual costs. CableCards wouldbe much cheaper and their STBs and DVRs more expensive on the customer's bill, making the TiVo much more attractive.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> "Diminished Service Quality" could be seen as a lack of VOD.


That's what they will argue. The fact only a moron would accept the statement as a valid one is beside the point, I suppose.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

jiffyspam said:


> Could be, but the way it's worded certainly makes it seem like your picture won't be as good.


That is exactly what it implies.



jiffyspam said:


> Not that anyone reads the fine print anyway...


With TWC, at least, it is not in fine print. It's very boldly displayed on their website.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

gamo62 said:


> So how does this work if you need a cablecard? Our provider is charging us $7.95 a month. Said it was for the maintenance and tech support of the cable card. Same price for their HD box.


What a load of horse pookey!



gamo62 said:


> How much should I be paying?


IMO, under $1 a month per CableCard. The CableCard costs them less than $35, and maintenance costs on CableCards are almost zilch. Here I have to pay $299 per CableCard, and I think it is outrageous.


----------



## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

I think I pay $2.50 / month for my cablecard. Question: is it true that the new FCC ruling says that if I want to install a cablecard into a second TiVo (which I do), TW must allow me the option of a self install, thus saving me the time and expense of a truck roll? I heard somewhere that they do.

Plus last time they came they spent hours in my house (mostly because that's how long the TW office kept the installer on hold on the phone). It would be nice to avoid having the guy in my house for so long.

Both times I asked TW, they seemed ignorant of any FCC ruling that requires this, and they want me to pay for a truck roll.


----------



## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

I filled out the form and TWC said that I did not qualify, and that it was a "local office option" not national. Need to check my bill and then follow up.


----------



## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

timckelley said:


> I think I pay $2.50 / month for my cablecard. Question: is it true that the new FCC ruling says that if I want to install a cablecard into a second TiVo (which I do), TW must allow me the option of a self install, thus saving me the time and expense of a truck roll? I heard somewhere that they do.
> 
> Plus last time they came they spent hours in my house (mostly because that's how long the TW office kept the installer on hold on the phone). It would be nice to avoid having the guy in my house for so long.
> 
> Both times I asked TW, they seemed ignorant of any FCC ruling that requires this, and they want me to pay for a truck roll.


There is a self-install kit on the TWC web site, at least in Ohio. It isn't an option, but TWC will stretch any point they can to make nonconformance difficult.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

timckelley said:


> I think I pay $2.50 / month for my cablecard. Question: is it true that the new FCC ruling says that if I want to install a cablecard into a second TiVo (which I do), TW must allow me the option of a self install, thus saving me the time and expense of a truck roll? I heard somewhere that they do.


They are required to provide a card or cards for self-install if they allow any other equipment to be self installed. You should complain to the FCC.

Could we perhaps get a sticky with a link the FCC's page about these new regulations? If nobody complains about these violations then nothing will change.

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights

Has anyone registered a complaint about this TW request form? It seems like a clear violation of the rule: "Your operator must give you a discount on any packages that include the price of a set-top box if you choose to use your own CableCARD-enabled device."

They must provide a refund, not an opportunity to apply for a refund. TW has all the information they are asking consumers to provide already. Anyone with a package that includes a cable box that doesn't have cable box provisioned is due a discount.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

nrc said:


> Has anyone registered a complaint about this TW request form? It seems like a clear violation of the rule: "Your operator must give you a discount on any packages that include the price of a set-top box if you choose to use your own CableCARD-enabled device."
> 
> They must provide a refund, not an opportunity to apply for a refund.


I suspect that distinction won't fly. They will certainly counter by saying the discount is available to all impacted subscribers. That the sub has to ask for it does not ordinarily constitute a refusal or failure to provide the discount.



nrc said:


> Anyone with a package that includes a cable box that doesn't have cable box provisioned is due a discount.


Unfortunately, this is not the case. If other subs who have the package must pay for extra for the box, then the sub who does not have a box is in effect getting the discount under the provisions of the ruling.

What's more, if there is no charge at all for an STB or DVR on any tier of service, then the TiVo owner is due a $0 discount. Whoopie.

It's just another example out of thousands of meaningless, palliative legislation.


----------



## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

nrc said:


> They are required to provide a card or cards for self-install if they allow any other equipment to be self installed. You should complain to the FCC.
> 
> Could we perhaps get a sticky with a link the FCC's page about these new regulations? If nobody complains about these violations then nothing will change.
> 
> ...


Thank you. In fact they do allow self install of cable modems, so it looks like this reg applies. I'm going to quote it to them and if they don't cooperate, I guess I should turn them in to the FCC.


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

timckelley said:


> I think I pay $2.50 / month for my cablecard. Question: is it true that the new FCC ruling says that if I want to install a cablecard into a second TiVo (which I do), TW must allow me the option of a self install, thus saving me the time and expense of a truck roll? I heard somewhere that they do.
> 
> Plus last time they came they spent hours in my house (mostly because that's how long the TW office kept the installer on hold on the phone). It would be nice to avoid having the guy in my house for so long.
> 
> Both times I asked TW, they seemed ignorant of any FCC ruling that requires this, and they want me to pay for a truck roll.


Yes, the FCC requires TWC to provide you an option to self-install a CableCARD. Look on your local TWC website for a CableCARD information page; in the San Diego area, that page is here. From there, you should see a link to order a CableCARD for self-install.

If TWC reps are ignorant of this rule and insist on a truck roll, file a complaint with the FCC here. It is quick and easy, and if the FCC gets enough complaints about TWC, it will take action against them.


----------



## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

I got off the phone with TW, and it sounds like the problem is moot. It turns out I'm moving to a new house next week, and they have a deal where they will transfer service to the new address, which includes taking all my existing equipment (internet + TV equipment) and hooking it up for $19.99 and if I want to add a second cable card to a second TiVo, they'll do that for no extra charge. So basically they'll do the installation on that extra card for free, so I guess I can't complain.

I never did get them to admit that self-install was an option, but I guess it's moot anyway.


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

Has anyone been able to get a Bring-Your-Own-Box credit on their TWC bill? I applied for it but have heard nothing.


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> What's more, if there is no charge at all for an STB or DVR on any tier of service, then the TiVo owner is due a $0 discount. Whoopie.


Thankfully, that is not the case. The FCC requires that the MSO separate out the rental cost of the "free" STB, and apply that as the credit. Yes, the MSO gets to decide how much that rental cost is, but $0 is not a valid answer (it must be _reasonably allocable_). From the FCC Advisory:



> The discounted amount must be no less than the monthly rental fee reasonably allocable to the lease of the operator-supplied device included in the programming package.


----------



## jsquared222 (Dec 2, 2005)

Saxion said:


> Has anyone been able to get a Bring-Your-Own-Box credit on their TWC bill? I applied for it but have heard nothing.


I also applied for the TWC credit and have heard nothing.


----------



## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

IIRC, Time Warner has a separate rental fee for their DVRs, and a smaller rental fee for the multistream cable cards, so I assume this credit won't be applicable for me. They're already not charging me the DVR rental fee.


----------



## premiereman (Aug 18, 2011)

jsquared222 said:


> I also applied for the TWC credit and have heard nothing.


Same here! I even called and spoke to a supervisor asking what the deal is and she said that she has no authorization to do anything (only the department that handles the credit can determine if a credit can be applied).


----------



## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

I was told I didn't qualify, but they declined to explain the rationale.


----------



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lafos said:


> I was told I didn't qualify, but they declined to explain the rationale.


I believe you and I are both on TWC SW Ohio. Two or three weeks after I submitted the web request I got a call explaining I didn't qualify because the bundle I'm on didn't include a STB. Given the obscurity and complexity of their pricing and bundles, there's no way you could begin to challenge this.


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

I finally got a phonemail in response to my BYOB discount submission. Bizarrely, the rep said that I was ineligible "because I was leasing a CableCARD from Time Warner". That makes no sense whatsoever...this is a discount _for _CableCARD customers! In my case at least, this is easy to argue against, so I filed the following complaint with the FCC. Not expecting anything to happen, but it felt good nonetheless. 



> On August 8 2011, Time Warner Cable (TWC) went live with a web form for a "Bring Your Own Box" (BYOB) discount. This form may be found at http://www.timewarnercable.com/Corporate/learn/cable/cablecard_byobcredit_form.html . The intent of this form is to allow TWC customers to apply for an FCC-mandated discount when they are paying for a cable package that would otherwise include a "free" settop box, but they are using a retail CableCARD device instead.
> 
> I filled out this form on August 8 2011, and twice more over the course of 6 weeks. I was finally contacted on September 26 2011 by a TWC representative named Tahesha who left me a phonemail message. Her message informed me that I was "ineligible for a discount because I am leasing a CableCARD from Time Warner Cable."
> 
> ...


----------



## premiereman (Aug 18, 2011)

I also finally got a call back and the rep told me that I didn't qualify without a valid explanation given :down:


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Saxion said:


> I finally got a phonemail in response to my BYOB discount submission. Bizarrely, the rep said that I was ineligible "because I was leasing a CableCARD from Time Warner". That makes no sense whatsoever...this is a discount _for _CableCARD customers! In my case at least, this is easy to argue against, so I filed the following complaint with the FCC. Not expecting anything to happen, but it felt good nonetheless.


Well done and thanks for going to the effort.

The challenge for TiVo owners is knowing whether a cable box (it doesn't even have to be a DVR) would be included with their package if they wanted one. I suppose you could try calling and telling them that you're thinking of getting rid of TiVo and you want to know what the charge would be for a cable box or DVR.

But as you said, TW should know better than anyone whether a customer is due a credit, so it's absurd that they're putting customers through this and handling it that way.

Here's something else you could catch them on. Whether or not TW provides a free cable box or DVR as part of a package, they definitely do it as a promotion. I'm pretty sure that if they offer a promotion for a free DVR for X months then they would have to offer you a bill credit for that if you provided your own box.

Be sure to update if you hear anything back from your complaint.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> What's more, if there is no charge at all for an STB or DVR on any tier of service, then the TiVo owner is due a $0 discount. Whoopie.





Saxion said:


> Thankfully, that is not the case. The FCC requires that the MSO separate out the rental cost of the "free" STB, and apply that as the credit. Yes, the MSO gets to decide how much that rental cost is, but $0 is not a valid answer (it must be _reasonably allocable_). From the FCC Advisory:


That is precisely my point. If they charge some amount for any box on any tier of service, then that provides a metric for what constitutes "reasonably allocable". If all services include a free STB, however, then no discount is implied for services not requiring an STB, whether a CableCard device is employed or not. I see nothing in that ruling that requires a separation of costs other than zero if zero is the cost for all tiers of service.


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> If all services include a free STB, however, then no discount is implied for services not requiring an STB, whether a CableCard device is employed or not. I see nothing in that ruling that requires a separation of costs other than zero if zero is the cost for all tiers of service.


That's simply not the case. The FCC rule states that there are only 3 methods that can be used to determine a "reasonable" lease cost for a STB, and $0 is not a valid answer for any of them. Here is the relevant text from the FCC ruling:


> consistent with one or more of the following factors: (i) an allocation determination approved by a local, state, or Federal government entity; (ii) the monthly lease fee as stated on the cable system rate card for the navigation device when offered by the cable operator separately from a bundled offer; and (iii) the actual cost of the navigation device amortized over a period of no more than 60 months.


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

nrc said:


> The challenge for TiVo owners is knowing whether a cable box (it doesn't even have to be a DVR) would be included with their package if they wanted one.


Fortunately, I still have a copy of the website offer that I originally signed up for, and it says a STB is included for free.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Saxion said:


> That's simply not the case. The FCC rule states that there are only 3 methods that can be used to determine a "reasonable" lease cost for a STB, and $0 is not a valid answer for any of them. Here is the relevant text from the FCC ruling:


Correct. Re-quoting the relevant section:

*(ii) the monthly lease fee as stated on the cable system rate card for the navigation device when offered by the cable operator separately from a bundled offer;*

All they have to do is provide a cable system rate card that specifies all "Navigation Devices" are offered to all customers for $0. IOW, they can't charge anyone for a DVR or STB. They could also provide some very low amount like $1. In such a case, they will then of course increase the cost of all packages to cover their cap-ex for the STBs and DVRs, but the ruling only requires that any subscriber be able to obtain an STB or DVR for the same amount refunded to the 3rd party owners.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Saxion said:


> Fortunately, I still have a copy of the website offer that I originally signed up for, and it says a STB is included for free.


Which means very little. The question is, "What do they normally charge?" It is that amount for which you are due a credit. Unfortunately, in my case the package does not include an STB free of charge.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

lrhorer said:


> All they have to do is provide a cable system rate card that specifies all "Navigation Devices" are offered to all customers for $0. IOW, they can't charge anyone for a DVR or STB.


You're ignoring item iii on the list of factors considered for what is "reasonably allocable".



> For purposes of this
> section, in determining what is "reasonably allocable," the Commission
> will consider in its evaluation whether the allocation is consistent
> with one or more of the following factors:
> ...


The cable industry has spent years arguing that CableCARD makes their cable boxes too expensive. They're never going to make the case that $0 is a reasonable cost to attribute to those same cable boxes.


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> All they have to do is provide a cable system rate card that specifies all "Navigation Devices" are offered to all customers for $0.


You didn't read the FCC statement very carefully:

"(ii) the monthly lease fee as stated on the cable system rate card for the navigation device *when offered by the cable operator separately from a bundled offer*"

This disproves your theory: in determining a "reasonable cost" for a STB, there is no way the FCC would accept your hypothetical rate card (which claims a cost of $0 for STBs because they are all bundled) since it clearly does not meet the requirement of being offered "separately from a bundle".

Besides, no such published rate would ever exist in the real world: remember, there are many customers who rent more than one STB. I'm sure they would love to get them for free, but they don't of course. Cable companies charge real dollars for STB rentals outside of bundles. Cable companies must disclose those charges in their published rates. It's as simple as that.

I'm really not sure why you feel the need to persist in this theory that a cable company could claim a reasonable lease cost of $0 for a STB. Each time you've brought this up, you've been shown ample, actual evidence to the contrary. Let's move on.


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Which means very little.


Um, it means I qualify.


lrhorer said:


> The question is, "What do they normally charge?" It is that amount for which you are due a credit.


The published rate for my franchise shows a monthly lease cost of $8.99 for a digital set-top box.


----------



## jmelan (Dec 3, 2011)

nrc said:


> ...
> Could we perhaps get a sticky with a link the FCC's page about these new regulations? If nobody complains about these violations then nothing will change.
> 
> http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights
> ...


It is shocking how little TWC cares about the new FCC regulations. A sticky with a modifiable form letter for an FCC complaint would be an excellent idea.

I filled out the BYOB form recently as well, same city as Saxion.

I can report that:

1. Nobody at Time Warner (except the national cablecard office) has really even heard of the BYOB cablecard credit, it does not seem to exist outside of the web form.

2. At this time, there is no way in the billing system for customer service to actually enter the BYOB credit even if they wanted to.

3. cablecard customers are categorically excluded from any bundle that includes DVR service or a DVR.

I think that the FCC should ask Time Warner to provide a specific number on cable card subscribers and proof of BYOB credits issued (which is obviously zero).

--------------

I would like to update this post to say that the TWC national cablecard office can be very helpful in trying to find a resolution - they seem to be aware of the new FCC regulations and are willing to try to help. However, all of the above statements still apply.


----------



## jmelan (Dec 3, 2011)

Well I just noticed on page 4 of my TWC billing statement for december:

"Time Warner cable leases cableCARDs for $2.00 per month, per cablecARD for use in customer-owned retail cableCARD compatible devices. Our leased digital converters also include either a cableCARD or integrated security inside the device. Our lease rate for digital converters that contain a cableCARD includes a $2.00 imputed charge for the cableCARD. *From time to time we may offer bundled packages that include one or more digital converters within the base package price. If you lease a cableCARD in lieu of such a digital converter, we now offer a prospective monthly credit to reflect the difference between the standard lease rates digital converters and cableCARDs.* Please contact us by filling out the form available via the following link if you believe you may be eligible for or would like more information regarding this credit: http://www.timewamercable.com/cablecard"

Perhaps changes are underway to facilitate the BYOB credit in the billing system. I would reiterate my rec to contact the national cablecard office if you continue to have problems


----------



## xberk (Dec 3, 2011)

>> 3. cablecard customers are categorically excluded from any bundle that includes DVR service or a DVR.

Jmelan .. 
I'm with TWC near LA. Very recent (installed 12/19). I have the triple play bundle for $89.99 guaranteed for 12 months. This included (1) Motorola DVR. I added two cable cards ( $5.00) for my Tivo Premiere units. Just got my first billing and they listed their DVR as $11.00 and the cable cards as $6.00 .. The $11.00 charge is bogus (I believe they are going to adjust the billing after I complained) as it should be included in the bundle. But it may have been fortunate in that it places a value on the DVR part of the bundle. I didn't really want their DVR but then decided I'd try it while my TIVOs could still be returned. Well, their DVR is not for me (not even close). My plan is to replace it with a home theater PC and run a Ceton Infinity 4 card instead. At that point, I'll need one more cable card (should be $2.00 now) and hopefully a BYOB discount off the price of my bundle. Not looking forward to the battle to get an $11.00 discount off my bundle. I imagine TWC will, at that point, value the DVR as zero. I have not yet filled out their internet form for the BYOB since I don't have the Ceton in place yet.


----------



## MacGuruTX (Sep 20, 2006)

I had an interesting experience today.... I've been on TW Cable San Diego since the S3's came out.

A year a ago I moved from a Condo Complex that was providing "free" internet via Time Warner to a house. At that time my Cable jumped. I finally started looking into it today.

I'm basically paying $203 (w/out Tax) for all the channels w/ premium movies and 5 cablecards. And Turbo Internet

I called to say I'm paying too much money and need my bill cut.

The rep couldn't get the bundles to "take". He finally figured out that he could put me on their top of the line "megacharged" bundle for $184. The caveat is that it won't take effect until I pick up a DVR on Monday.

So I'm not sure if I return the DVR, if they will then kick me back out to what was essentially an Ala-Carte setup. Or if after I pick up the DVR, I can turn it back in.

And then apply for the BYOB credit. I do notice that on the BYOB credit form on the San Diego site. 
http://www.timewarnercable.com/Corporate/learn/cable/cablecard_byobcredit_form.html

It says for a "DVR that you were never provided". 
Is this going to be TW's end around the FCC rules? If I return the DVR, are they going to break my bundle apart again....

Anyone gone through it like this yet?


----------



## MacGuruTX (Sep 20, 2006)

Ok, so I just filed the following complaint with the FCC reference number 12-C00362091. Will see if I actually get any kind of response...



> FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5) and FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5)(C)
> 
> Time Warner will not maintain cable bundle package rates if you use a cable card.
> For example, there is a "mega-charged" package. This package "includes" a DVR. If you have cable cards on your account and turn in the DVR, then they split the bundle package and force you to a la carte pricing.
> ...


----------



## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

timckelley said:


> I think I pay $2.50 / month for my cablecard. Question: is it true that the new FCC ruling says that if I want to install a cablecard into a second TiVo (which I do), TW must allow me the option of a self install, thus saving me the time and expense of a truck roll? I heard somewhere that they do.
> 
> Plus last time they came they spent hours in my house (mostly because that's how long the TW office kept the installer on hold on the phone). It would be nice to avoid having the guy in my house for so long.
> 
> Both times I asked TW, they seemed ignorant of any FCC ruling that requires this, and they want me to pay for a truck roll.


As i posted on another thread I just got a new contract with Charter. While I was on the phone I inquired about bringing back my digital cable box which has been sitting in my closet for years. They said if i brought it back they would give me credit for one of my cablecards. I tried to return it a couple of years ago and they wouldn't take it because they said it was tied to my package.

If I were you, I'd insist on my own cable card install and if they refused, I'd have them do it and then call and get a refund once you point out the FCC mandate. The people that man the phones seem to have a better knowledge of the laws than the local folks.


----------



## eduboys (Sep 11, 2013)

This seems to be a complete farce...

If you have a plan that includes a cable box, and attempt to pick up a cable card, Time Warner forces the customer onto a plan that does not include equipment. Seems completely contrary to the spirit of the FCC regulation. They claim the reason they will not allow you to keep the current plan is that their system does not allow them to. After escalating I was told by a Time Warner customer service manager that they do not offer that discount in the New York metro market, which seems completely absurd!!!

I guess my only recourse is filing a complaint with the FCC who is temporarily shut down...


----------



## bgmncwj (Mar 25, 2004)

Did anybody ever figure out how to get this to work? I was looking at one of the TWC bundles since it'd be a bit cheaper but they all include a box that I don't want. It's to the point where I might just pay the extra $4 ($2.50 for the card, $1.50 for the extra outlet) for a cablecard and store the box in the closet but I'd rather not. From what I can tell speaking with folks at TWC there's no way for them to add a bundle and use a cablecard in place of a box. Is there something I'm missing or is it just not worth the fight?


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

bgmncwj said:


> Did anybody ever figure out how to get this to work? I was looking at one of the TWC bundles since it'd be a bit cheaper but they all include a box that I don't want. It's to the point where I might just pay the extra $4 ($2.50 for the card, $1.50 for the extra outlet) for a cablecard and store the box in the closet but I'd rather not. From what I can tell speaking with folks at TWC there's no way for them to add a bundle and use a cablecard in place of a box. Is there something I'm missing or is it just not worth the fight?


If a bundle price includes the price of a box, and you want to use your own box with a CableCard, then they are supposed to give you an equipment credit according to FCC regulations.

If you really want to fight it, you can file a complaint with the FCC about it.

https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us


----------



## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

bgmncwj said:


> Did anybody ever figure out how to get this to work? I was looking at one of the TWC bundles since it'd be a bit cheaper but they all include a box that I don't want. It's to the point where I might just pay the extra $4 ($2.50 for the card, $1.50 for the extra outlet) for a cablecard and store the box in the closet but I'd rather not. From what I can tell speaking with folks at TWC there's no way for them to add a bundle and use a cablecard in place of a box. Is there something I'm missing or is it just not worth the fight?


I would think you would just get the cable-card and establish a then current rate with no questions asked without even having a supplied box and THEN after it's 30 days old or a billing cycle old just call and ask for the "bundle option". If you don't have a current account then it might be worth the call and just ask about the "bundling" and mentioning your TiVo hardware.

The conversation costs you "nothing"!

I don't believe it should come to a "fight" over it situation.

Hard to tell, are you presently a TWC subscriber or not? The original post is nearly 40 months old. Much has changed, conversations I believe should be much easier.


----------



## bgmncwj (Mar 25, 2004)

WVZR1 said:


> I would think you would just get the cable-card and establish a then current rate with no questions asked without even having a supplied box and THEN after it's 30 days old or a billing cycle old just call and ask for the "bundle option". If you don't have a current account then it might be worth the call and just ask about the "bundling" and mentioning your TiVo hardware.
> 
> The conversation costs you "nothing"!
> 
> ...


I'm a current Internet customer and have a cablecard on the way for a entry level bundle that'd give me HBO & Starter cable (that bundle doesn't include a box). I was just looking at the site and realized for an extra $20/mo there's a bundle that'd give me the rest of the channels as well. That's a good idea though, I'll wait for the card to show up, get it all setup and then call about the other bundle and see what happens. Worth a shot afterall.


----------



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

eduboys said:


> This seems to be a complete farce...
> 
> If you have a plan that includes a cable box, and attempt to pick up a cable card, Time Warner forces the customer onto a plan that does not include equipment. Seems completely contrary to the spirit of the FCC regulation. They claim the reason they will not allow you to keep the current plan is that their system does not allow them to. After escalating I was told by a Time Warner customer service manager that they do not offer that discount in the New York metro market, which seems completely absurd!!!
> 
> I guess my only recourse is filing a complaint with the FCC who is temporarily shut down...


And good luck with that.

Take a look at the similar discussion going on in another current thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10360784#post10360784

This is a regulation the FCC can't begin to enforce due to the "flexible" pricing policies of TWC.


----------

