# SKY HD install - Have you been moved?



## Bakdraft

Hi 

I have been moved from the 24th to 2nd June    

Let's start a Poll and count up how many haven't been moved versus how many did get moved... it will let us know how bad the problem really is...

I am sure a newspaper will pickup on this and hopefully this will put pressure on SKY not to move us a second time.... yes that's right, I asked my rep is there a chance we could be moved a second time and he said... quietly... he could not guarantee that we would not be moved again!!!  

It will also tell us how many TIVO users are getting SKY HD..... :


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## OzSat

It is the sort of thing that The Guardian and Daily Mail would love.


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## GarySargent

Still on for the 22nd - just called them. Must say I'd be mighty annoyed if they'd moved it so you have my sympathies.


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## 6022tivo

I suppose you could say if thats the case I will cancel my Sub, and see what happens. Normally with Sky they bend over backwards to keep you on board.


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## Raisltin Majere

I haven't ordered skyhd so can't vote, but this situation doesn't surprise me.

I have been a customer of theirs for 3 months and have never dealt with such a badly organised, seemingly self-destructive company in my life. If there was any competition to these charlatans they would have sunk long ago.



6022tivo said:


> I suppose you could say if thats the case I will cancel my Sub, and see what happens. Normally with Sky they bend over backwards to keep you on board.


Not any more. During one of many telephone calls to complain about the service I have received I stated that I would cancel my direct debit and they could come and collect their equipment, the response was a verbal shrug "well that's up to you" and I could keep my equipment and they wouldn't hold me to my 12 month contract.

This country seriously needs some competition to sky. NTL:Telewest/virgin (whoever they are) need to increase their offering both in content and geography
and give sky a run for their money. (and they owe me 6 months subscription so the geography bit comes first  )


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## TiVo_Lad

Raisltin Majere said:


> This country seriously needs some competition to sky.


I agree with you 100% As the dominant player they are always going to have a "who cares" attitude. They act like a monopoly. Whilst I am sure there are plenty of poeple who have gone FreeView rather than Sky, FV will always lag behind due to lack of content. We can't realistically wait until 2012 before FV starts to use the available spectrum after analogue switchoff 

Personally, Sky could be the most fantastic company in the world, but I still wouldn't put money in the pocket of a certain Australian... :down:


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## Bakdraft

GarySargent said:


> Still on for the 22nd - just called them. Must say I'd be mighty annoyed if they'd moved it so you have my sympathies.


Hi Gary,

It's has become very clear why everyone on the 22nd is OK ( Not one single person moved on the 22nd!!!) .

come the 22nd you know it will be on the National news.... "SKY Launches HD....xxx number on the same day !...What a great sucess"

Of course newspapers and shareholders are not interested about day 2 etc when only 3 were installed..


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## OzSat

I suspect that boxes due to be installed early next week are already on their way to (or even with) the installers (or their local base).

It would seem it is the numbers of HD boxes available that is the problem and if the boxes are already in areas - then it would be selected areas where installs are delayed.

So some areas only have enough boxes for the first day - some run out in the second day and so on.

I would also expect that areas will get a trickle of new boxes as available - but would not be surprised if some of the delayed installs are delayed again.


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## =CM=

ozsat said:


> I suspect that boxes due to be installed early next week are already on their way to (or even with) the installers (or their local base).


One of the installers on alt.satellite.europe has had his batch in early. However Sky have not enabled the HD functionality yet: no early access for the masses until the PR rolls.

This is one area where my "early adaptor" instincts are being resisted! New boxes untried and untested, etc.


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## Automan

Well no letter but as advised you can check your online billing and if you have a recent transaction of £20.00 you are screwed - LIKE ME!

Gave them a call and my Tuesday 23rd is now Monday 29th

Just thought - Thats a bank holiday....

Should I ring them back?

Also 30,000 x £299.00 is nearly £11 Million pounds which they have had of our money for nealy a month.

Automan.


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## Bakdraft

Automan said:


> Well no letter but as advised you can check your online billing and if you have a recent transaction of £20.00 you are screwed - LIKE ME!
> 
> Gave them a call and my Tuesday 23rd is now Monday 29th
> 
> Just thought - Thats a bank holiday....
> 
> Should I ring them back?
> 
> Also 30,000 x £299.00 is nearly £11 Million pounds which they have had of our money for nealy a month.
> 
> Automan.


After spending all day on AVS.. quite a few people have had the bank holiday booked and all have been assured it's OK. The bank holiday is not would worry... it's the possibility of them changing the dates again...


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## Bakdraft

The pattern is pretty clear now...

The AVS forum Poll shows the following:

View Poll Results: Has your Sky HD install been moved ? 
Yes 85 41.26% 
No 121 58.74% 
Voters: 206. 

After monitoring it all afternoon, the 40% moved does not change... If truly 40,000 where booked well that's 15,000 moved  

After shocks from this sort of mess can cause all sorts of issues.. forinstance if you get your new box installed and you have problems a week later... forget an engineer being available to fix it.....

I amtrying to be understanding and being moved from 24th to 2nd I can accept (Just) but ifthey move me again.....


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## sanderton

I'm a "22nd"er so hopefully will be safe, but it's a last minute box shortage, surely that isn't going to be sorted ina day or two?


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## Bakdraft

sanderton said:


> I'm a "22nd"er so hopefully will be safe, but it's a last minute box shortage, surely that isn't going to be sorted ina day or two?


Always trying to look on the bright side...

At least with you and Gary being done Monday, it will give you both plenty of time to figure out how to connect it up best to suit the continued operation of my Tivo.... Hell.. you might have all the IR codes mapped, done some special soft Pad for Sky HD and re-written their EPG....

Wassat.... Oh err... it was just a dream after all...


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## sanderton

There are posts on AV Forums and DS suggesting that *everyone* who is not due on the 22nd is being put back, they just haven't got around to booking the ones who are not next week into the system yet. They are ringing everyone with installs booked on the 23rd and 24th telling them they are not happening as the letters won't get there in time.

As the number of boxes needed has been known by some time I can only think that Sky have been let down big time by a supplier, or that they were playing brinkmanship to the limit hoping to gete a delivery in time.

My contacts at Sky haven't got back to me yet...


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## Bakdraft

sanderton said:


> There are posts on AV Forums and DS suggesting that *everyone* who is not due on the 22nd is being put back, they just haven't got around to booking the ones who are not next week into the system yet. They are ringing everyone with installs booked on the 23rd and 24th telling them they are not happening as the letters won't get there in time.
> 
> As the number of boxes needed has been known by some time I can only think that Sky have been let down big time by a supplier, or that they were playing brinkmanship to the limit hoping to gete a delivery in time.
> 
> My contacts at Sky haven't got back to me yet...


I do not think that it is as bad as all that...

If you look at the AVS poll it has benn running long enough to be very accurate now... it does not vary from approx 40%... then that means 50% are still going ahead. i do not hink 50% of installs were being done just on the 22nd.. thus there must be plenty of people from other days still going ahead.

Even if some of this 50% have been fooled by a false dawn... 20% installed must be more than one day.. surely... role on the truth though I can't wait to find out the real reason.


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## GarySargent

Sky have confirmed 17,000 people will have their installs delayed.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/19/sky_hd/


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## Automan

I expect Thomson have run out of mains power leads 

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=8718

Automan.


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## tivosnoopy

After a long conversation this morning where the word CANCEL was used a lot i managed to get a sunday install on the 4th June ( was 25th May ) and was also offered £40 compen.

What a shambles


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## OzSat

It doesn't say that Sky have confirmed this number.



GarySargent said:


> Sky have confirmed 17,000 people will have their installs delayed.
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/19/sky_hd/


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## Bakdraft

ozsat said:


> It doesn't say that Sky have confirmed this number.


No... but according to AVS.. poll it's bang on

View Poll Results: Has your Sky HD install been moved ? 
Yes 212 45.89% 
No 250 54.11%

45% of 40,000 is 18,000....

That 45% has been pretty consistent over 24 hours..

Even our own modest poll above indicates the exact same figure (41%)


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## OzSat

But if you look - it would seem only moves for next week - perhaps there were no (or very few) installs for the week after.

So it may only be week 1 which has moved - and week 2 may virtually clear - just in case. It may be there knew there was limited stock and after what they expected week one stock would be - knew that installs would then have to wait a couple of weeks for new stock.


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## Bakdraft

ozsat said:


> But if you look - it would seem only moves for next week - perhaps there were no (or very few) installs for the week after.
> 
> So it may only be week 1 which has moved - and week 2 may virtually clear - just in case. It may be there knew there was limited stock and after what they expected week one stock would be - knew that installs would then have to wait a couple of weeks for new stock.


Yes that could be true, but on the other hand they may not have got round to ringing , phoning , rescheduling past the first week.... that was a big enough job, after all who could sort out 17,000 re-schedules in 2 days..... 

But I exect you're correct and that if they get stock in they can catch up quickly... it probabaly is just a potential to be 17,000 if the manufacturer doesn't do the business..


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## sanderton

The fact they are offering an extra £20 (£40 in all) if you agree to be bumped to July suggests that it's all a bit tight in June.


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## Automan

I myself have not 
Out in Eastbourne today and popped in Comets.

They had a Sky HD box on a display console with a space for a remote control under a plastic shield.

The TV was showing a Sky HD presentation but wedged around the back of the TV was a DVD player hooked up to the TV playing a DVD.

By now should they not have the "real thing"?

Also they actually had two Toshiba 1920x1080 LCD TV (47" & 42").

Pixels definatley smaller but images being show so poor quality I was not possible to judge how much better the picture could be.

Automan.


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## Automan

It seems some people ordered their boxes from

http://www.simplydigital.co.uk/acatalog/Sky_High_Deffinition.html

And have had them delivered today!

Also no charge to credit card till time of despatch.

GROAN!

Automan.


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## Fozzie

Called Sky 2 days ago to check. I've been moved from May 24th to June 2nd; still in time for the World Cup 

I got my new card yesterday and then a phone call from Sky this morning to ask if I'd received my letter about the delay (which I haven't yet).

I'm amazed at the attidude of some of the people over at Avforums - this really isn't a life and death situation. It's a bit of a pain but no amount of whingeing and whining is going to change anything. The ones that are cancelling particularly make me laugh - their loss! New roll-outs always get hit by delays.


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## Bakdraft

Fozzie said:


> Called Sky 2 days ago to check. I've been moved from May 24th to June 2nd; still in time for the World Cup
> 
> I got my new card yesterday and then a phone call from Sky this morning to ask if I'd received my letter about the delay (which I haven't yet).
> 
> I'm amazed at the attidude of some of the people over at Avforums - this really isn't a life and death situation. It's a bit of a pain but no amount of whingeing and whining is going to change anything. The ones that are cancelling particularly make me laugh - their loss! New roll-outs always get hit by delays.


Yeah... your'e right.... but almost without exception the 250 people have taken the same agrieved unhappy attitude (that includes me). Of course over time everyone will calm down and forget it. It's not that they are moved per say, it's 

they way it was handled
the fact that all the 22nd's were not touched for PR reasons
No public statement by Sky
Varying levels of compensation
Pre orders are now behind joe public
some will miss some or all of the world cup in HD
Some cannot meet new suggested dates and are being offered August
some have been given confusing info, i.e. not moved, then you are moved
No clear consistent explanations

Even our own moderator was given 4 stories by Sky on the same day

It does drive people up the wall... but in the end you are right... you just see it faster..

P.S. If they cancel you again, and you do not get it in time for the world cup will you be so calm.

Remember Football: It's more than a game... it's Life or Death..


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## Richardr

Bakdraft said:


> [*]the fact that all the 22nd's were not touched for PR reasons


To be fair, if it is a shortage of 20,000ish boxes, then on a first come first served basis the 22nds would be fine, but the later dates would be delayed.

No point in the Sky installers delaying the first day and sitting on boxes.

One assumes that if the boxes are in short supply now, but working boxes are coming off the production line, then an extra 20,000ish will not take long to produce - say a week or so, so the revised dates should be fine.

I suspect that were the World Cup not about to happen, then the launch would have been in the Autumn (or at least August at the start of the new football season).

So far I've not heard from Sky (I was due on the 23rd), but do have a £20 credit sat on the Sky account, so have mentally written off the original install date. However, given I have a day off work that day, it is not good customer relations to not inform of anything (I wouldn't have checked the Sky statement on interactive were it not for the comments on the various web forums).


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## Bakdraft

Richardr said:


> To be fair, if it is a shortage of 20,000ish boxes, then on a first come first served basis the 22nds would be fine, but the later dates would be delayed.
> 
> No point in the Sky installers delaying the first day and sitting on boxes.
> 
> One assumes that if the boxes are in short supply now, but working boxes are coming off the production line, then an extra 20,000ish will not take long to produce - say a week or so, so the revised dates should be fine.
> 
> I suspect that were the World Cup not about to happen, then the launch would have been in the Autumn (or at least August at the start of the new football season).
> 
> So far I've not heard from Sky (I was due on the 23rd), but do have a £20 credit sat on the Sky account, so have mentally written off the original install date. However, given I have a day off work that day, it is not good customer relations to not inform of anything (I wouldn't have checked the Sky statement on interactive were it not for the comments on the various web forums).


That still does not add up. If you had enough to fully cover 22nd but not enough for all of the 23rd or 24th how on earth did they think they could ship them to all the installers in time for each day... you would have to say that they would ship to installers on a weekly not daily basis... The only way it could be so would be that they didnt have enough to cover all areas for the 22nd and told installers to use the 23rd and 24th for the 22nd and they would replace these when they could.. follow me???


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## sanderton

Bakdraft said:


> follow me???


Er, no. 

10,000 boxes in the warehouse (say), shipped to installers, only enough to do the ones sheduled for the 22nd, thus all others cancelled. Seems pretty straightforward?


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## Bakdraft

sanderton said:


> Er, no.
> 
> 10,000 boxes in the warehouse (say), shipped to installers, only enough to do the ones sheduled for the 22nd, thus all others cancelled. Seems pretty straightforward?


Aha! so with 40,000 installs it's all over by the 25th????


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## 6022tivo

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/19/sky_hd/

Does anyone know the reason of the shortage of the boxes.

Did I read somewhere about shortage of Mpeg4 Decoder chips of something, does this box use these???.


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## sanderton

Bakdraft said:


> Aha! so with 40,000 installs it's all over by the 25th????


Don't know the actual numbers of course. In fact if 17,000 have been moved it could be as few as 2,000 scheduled for Monday.

40,000 was the pre orders, all of which were before the marketing started - which as you may have noticed has kicked off big time! If you ring up to buy HD now you are given an August date; the pre-orders were pretty much all in May, some the first week of June.


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## Automan

I expect it was the mains lead with moulded 13 amp plug 

Joking asside it will be interesting to see if the hardware revision version is different from the boxes released on Day 1 to the new stock that has been delayed.

Automan.


6022tivo said:


> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/19/sky_hd/
> 
> Does anyone know the reason of the shortage of the boxes.
> 
> Did I read somewhere about shortage of Mpeg4 Decoder chips of something, does this box use these???.


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## Richardr

Richardr said:


> So far I've not heard from Sky (I was due on the 23rd), but do have a £20 credit sat on the Sky account, so have mentally written off the original install date.


I have now - bumped from the 23rd May to the 1st of June.


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## OzSat

Seems several 22nd May installs are getting confirmation calls with times from installers.


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## cjfrosty

I Preordered on the 24/3/2006 I was contacted on the 11th of April, the install date confirmed was the 25/05/2006 now the date has been moved back to the 3/6/2006. Sky have had my £299 for 2 months......I thought the idea of a pre order was to ensure you had an install? I couldn't order any quicker than on the 24/3/06 as it was the opening day for pre orders. Sky have told me other customers dates have been put back and "if I was to order now I would not get HD till Aug.Is that meant to make me feel better!!
SKY- Will take your money,and not meet there end of the deal.
Whats makes it worse a friend ordered after me(by 2 days) and he will now get his box before me.

First come first served......I dont think so.


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## Fozzie

It's never ever going to be strictly first come first served and you'd be a mug for believing otherwise. You've also got to factor in the availability of installers in all the various areas throughout the UK.

By pre-ordering you have guaranteed yourself an install; the 3rd June (only a few days after your original date). I would suggest that if you really want HD, then that's not too much extra to wait. However, if you ordered it for the kudos of getting it 'first', then you'd better cancel because you've been beaten!


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## OzSat

Somebody in AVS has just posted that a 'phone call from Sky at 8.15pm on Sunday cancelled their Monday installation.


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## Fozzie

ozsat said:


> Somebody in AVS has just posted that a 'phone call from Sky at 8.15pm on Sunday cancelled their Monday installation.


Ouch, that's gotta hurt! I can just imagine all the posts over there now.


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## OzSat

The thing is, there is no indication that the 'bump' was not made on Thursday and he has only just found out.


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## OzSat

Others now reporting their 22nd installs being cancelled on Sunday evening 'phone calls.


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## Bakdraft

Hi Gary, Sanderton et al...

Can't wait to here how you get on today! :up: 

Please couldyou let me know how the installation went, more particuarly relating to Tivo, I am desparate to keep Tivo as the main recorder ( especially as my Tivo was out of action over the weekend and I had to use the sky EPG Urgh :down: )

My thinking was to use the HD box as a normal sky box, and just use the sky box every now and then for HD showing and recording. I know I may loose out on quality, but I don't care about that (just yet).


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## GarySargent

Engineer just this second called - he's due between 1pm and 4pm


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## sanderton

GarySargent said:


> Engineer just this second called - he's due between 1pm and 4pm


Just had the call - 9am - 12. I win! 

bakdraft; I've kept the original Sky box on on multiroom as a dedicated source for TiVo, so won't be attempting to connect the HD box to it.


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## 6022tivo

I wonder if the engineers vans are at risk today???
I suspect the black market for SKY HD boxes will be quite high especially with people now not getting them for the world cup??

Where I am today it is pi**ing down and I would not be going up a ladder, I suspect the Sky Enginners would have to go up a ladder for Sky in a force 9 Storm..

Good luck guys, I was definatly not interested, but all this hype is getting to me... I have the perfect (well good) TV for the Sky HD box and really should take advantage of it rather than just for the xbox 360...

Enjoy, and reviews asap please.


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## Bakdraft

6022tivo said:


> I wonder if the engineers vans are at risk today???
> I suspect the black market for SKY HD boxes will be quite high especially with people now not getting them for the world cup??
> 
> Where I am today it is pi**ing down and I would not be going up a ladder, I suspect the Sky Enginners would have to go up a ladder for Sky in a force 9 Storm..
> 
> Good luck guys, I was definatly not interested, but all this hype is getting to me... I have the perfect (well good) TV for the Sky HD box and really should take advantage of it rather than just for the xbox 360...
> 
> Enjoy, and reviews asap please.


Hi 6022Tivo, I have exactly the same plasma as you plus a pretty good Surround sound... and I am due for HD on the 2nd so if you're interested anytime after that just PM me and I can arrange a demo, I know I live very close to you.

Dave


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## 6022tivo

Bakdraft said:


> Hi 6022Tivo, I have exactly the same plasma as you plus a pretty good Surround sound... and I am due for HD on the 2nd so if you're interested anytime after that just PM me and I can arrange a demo, I know I live very close to you.
> 
> Dave


Very close... I feel stalked.. lol. 

That would be great, I will pop in for the Sweden game with a beer.. lol 

Just kidding, I could become your Cable Guy..


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## Bakdraft

6022tivo said:


> Very close... I feel stalked.. lol.
> 
> That would be great, I will pop in for the Sweden game with a beer.. lol
> 
> Just kidding, I could become your Cable Guy..


  Now I am scared !!!


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## Bakdraft

Oooh.. it's bad out there...

Just read on the AV forum of horrible things happening to people

one person dead box... installer stole someone else's off the van to fix
another had 3 dead boxes... said will come back later
3 people cancelled on the day... only found out when they called to ask where the installer was
Other reporting that SKY HD has unique control, but it accepts Sky+ box control as well leading to HD box being upset by using Sky+ remote

In some (small) ways it makes me glad I am not out there yet...


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## katman

Bakdraft said:


> Oooh.. it's bad out there...
> 
> Just read on the AV forum of horrible things happening to people
> 
> ...


I think an awful lot of people are reading (or trying to) the AV forums.

It was very slow earlier today and now the server is collapsing under the strain !!!!

Several "server cannot be found" errors 



> Other reporting that SKY HD has unique control, but it accepts Sky+ box control as well leading to HD box being upset by using Sky+ remote


Strange that one.

SKY and SKY+ use the same button codes (for buttons that they both have) but the difference is that SKY+ has a system code of 12 whereas normal SKY is system 0

The fact that an HD remote WONT operate SKY+ would indicate that HD is using a different system code but I would guess that for some strange reason they have decided to let the HD box respond to two different system codes.

I can imagine that will annoy the hell out of many people and hopefully it is something that they could resolve with a firmware update.


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## ndunlavey

BBC today mostly echoing the Register story http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5003728.stm


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## GarySargent

All installed. I have to say the picture quality is simply stunning. Can't stop watching!


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## Bakdraft

GarySargent said:


> All installed. I have to say the picture quality is simply stunning. Can't stop watching!


Glad to hear it went well Gary. 
I was getting a bit worried when it had gone quiet for so long.. (not heard from Sanderton either  )

If you ever try to control it via Tivo, please lt me know how you get on..

Dave


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## 6022tivo

I hear that the Sky HD box Upscales SD broadcasts, so they look a lot neater than the standard Sky boxes??? The TV's stays on the Hi Def Mode of say 720P and the SD is upscaled???

Any confirmation on this, and is it a better picture over Sky SD Boxes for SD.


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## GarySargent

Doesn't seem to upscale the resolution (in automatic mode anyway) but is outputing a progressive rather than interlaced PAL. So getting 576p instead of the usual 576i.

Picture quality does look better than normal even for SD (though maybe I am too used to watching through TiVo).


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## Bakdraft

6022tivo said:


> I hear that the Sky HD box Upscales SD broadcasts, so they look a lot neater than the standard Sky boxes??? The TV's stays on the Hi Def Mode of say 720P and the SD is upscaled???
> 
> Any confirmation on this, and is it a better picture over Sky SD Boxes for SD.


My PDP 505XDE has a Pioneer DV868AVI which upscales normal DVD up to HD. What do you get.... not a lot of difference really.....

This is like trying to use photoshop to fix an out of focus photo..

Rubbish in means rubbish out ( well not quite that bad ) so to speak...


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## GarySargent

Shame they don't output the menus in HD quality as they look pretty ropey!

The "RECORDING" sign in the planner looks especially terrible!


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## sanderton

Just sitting here watching the BBC test trailer looping round with a silly smile on my face. The Planet Earth and Bleak house stuff looks stunning, as does Supervolcano and Hannibal.

SD quality over HDMI is significantly better than RGB.

My god this Sky+ thing is bollox though; everyting I'd heard about it is true. I guess I'll have to live with it.


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## Tony Hoyle

I figure I'll use the Sky+ thing to record the occasional movie in HD and just let Tivo control the rest (since it can do it in the background).

Not really keen on paying out for a multiroom sub to give Tivo its own box.

BBC Trailer is wonderful... didn't impress the wife though. Need to work on that (she can't 'see' HD so I'm relying on the DD5.1 at the moment to justify the cost..)


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## Bakdraft

sanderton said:


> Just sitting here watching the BBC test trailer looping round with a silly smile on my face. The Planet Earth and Bleak house stuff looks stunning, as does Supervolcano and Hannibal.
> 
> SD quality over HDMI is significantly better than RGB.
> 
> My god this Sky+ thing is bollox though; everyting I'd heard about it is true. I guess I'll have to live with it.


I can tell how good it is by the fact that we haven't heard a peep from you all night.. you really must have been watcing it for hours!


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## eric23

There's been an internal memo floating around on the forums explaining that those originally booked for the 22nd would be staying on the 22nd "to protect the brand".

It's all about PR, and nothing to do with customer care.

And yes, I have been moved from 26th May to 6th June.


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## GarySargent

Yes must concur re Sky plus - have ordered Multiroom so I can have TiVo No 1 back!

The lack of a proper TODO list is hopeless as I can't tell what the thing is going to record except for the next episode of each series .

Tried setting a Series Link for the new Human Traffiking series on Sky 1 next Sunday (which is in HD) but it wouldn't allow me to have a Series Link.

Also more than once had the box go into a strange very stretched picture missing lots of the left and right (massively stretched, looks rediculous). Even the onscreen menus are stretched! Wasn't the TV as it was in the correct mode. Switching channels fixes it.

Sky's upscaled SD on Sky One HD is horrendous! No idea what they have done but the picture quality is abismal, and there are black borders left/right - looks like 14:9?! Guess they will fix that their end eventually.


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## 6022tivo

Cheers for the update Gary (SKY HD Beta Tester)..


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## paxton

Morning all,

Had my HD install bumped from 29th May to 15th June via letter yesterday. 
I tried to call them all day but it was constantly engaged, but managed to get through to them this morning via a different number.

I tried to get the date moved a day or so either side of 15th June cos it's not particularly convenient, but she wouldn't budge at all, saying that the next slot I could move it to would be 11th August!

So I then tried to change my install to a multiroom one for 15th June, for the inconvenience ( I'm not letting Tivo go ) and she wouldn't have any of it, saying that I should have booked it as multiroom from the off (which I must admit I should have done, but didn't realise you could at the pre-order stage back in March) and if I wanted it multiroom, they would have to charge me an extra £60, plus they would have to cancel my order and re-book it. This would "almost certainly" result in a new date being booked, which would again be 11th August at best. So I scrapped that idea for the moment and will probably get a local cowboy to quote on a multiroom.

Not particularly happy with the situation, but I guess I understand that if there are delays, then moving people to days that they request would end being a logistical nightmare. I just thought they may have given me the free multiroom install for all the hassle, but she said "Why should we? Isn't the £20 refund enough, sir?"  

Glad to hear that some of you have it all in ok, with no delays, and very glad to hear that the opinions of Gary and Stuart seem to be positive! PQ, that is, I think we all know that the interface is "different".  

Quick question regarding the impending multiroom, due to space issues, does anyone know if Tivo is happy living and working on it's side?

Cheers!


----------



## GarySargent

With regards to multiroom - I didn't order it at the time, and also couldn't add it to my order without delaying the HD install.

So when the engineer came I asked him to leave the existing line connected to the old box, and he ran a dual line feed to the new HD box (this was two wires combined into one, pretty neat).

Once he'd gone I just phoned Sky and ordered multiroom, telling them the engineer had done the work and I just needed a viewing card.


----------



## paxton

Aha ... good thinking, that man!

So do you have the HD box and your old box in the same room then? I guess you're running them both on the same tv?

It might be a bit more difficult to get him to run a line to a different room. Although, if I just get him to leave it, I may even be able to have a bash myself ... how hard can it be to drill a few more holes in a few walls?


----------



## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> With regards to multiroom - I didn't order it at the time, and also couldn't add it to my order without delaying the HD install.
> 
> So when the engineer came I asked him to leave the existing line connected to the old box, and he ran a dual line feed to the new HD box (this was two wires combined into one, pretty neat).
> 
> Once he'd gone I just phoned Sky and ordered multiroom, telling them the engineer had done the work and I just needed a viewing card.


The card usually takes 2 days to arrive once ordered


----------



## Bakdraft

paxton said:


> Morning all,
> 
> , I think we all know that the interface is "different".
> 
> Cheers!


Hmm... it's a bit more than different, I am not prepared to live with it. I will only use the HD box for HD programs until that becomes untenable.

I am somewhat confused by people wanting multiroom in the same room as a Tivo and or a Sky+ or standard box.

Unless it is technically not possible or practically not reasonable to use the Tivo, why do that. Surely being able to record 1 channel on Tivo and a second channel on HD box is enough? ( I understand you can't record 3)

I don't want to spend another £10 a month for something I can work around. Until there are so many HD channels around that Tivo get consigned to the kids room, I can't see the need 

Please let me know what I am not understanding.

My install is on the 2nd, and if I have got it wrong and need the installer to put a 3rd line for the original box I need to know asap...

Thanks


----------



## Bakdraft

How great is that! :up: 

Less than 2.5 hours after receiving a Sky HD box and someone has hacked it already!!  

Upgrading it from 300Gb to 500Gb... giving an extra 200Gb of recording space (360Gb) 

There are some incredibly Brave (Mad  ) people out there.. still it makes you smile


----------



## GarySargent

The issue is you couldn't watch your Sky HD recordings while TiVo was wanting to record. Nor could you use the Sky menus etc (otherwise TiVo would just record that).

If you can work around that restriction then you don't need multiroom in the same room I guess.

I plan to still use Sky HD to record SD stuff, but also let TiVo record it too - more of a backup. We'll see how things go...


----------



## Bakdraft

GarySargent said:


> The issue is you couldn't watch your Sky HD recordings while TiVo was wanting to record. Nor could you use the Sky menus etc (otherwise TiVo would just record that).
> 
> If you can work around that restriction then you don't need multiroom in the same room I guess.
> 
> I plan to still use Sky HD to record SD stuff, but also let TiVo record it too - more of a backup. We'll see how things go...


I would record the HD programs I want to watch and view them later... when time allows...
I don't need to use the Sky menus... I have a Tivo! I will just ensure I setup the HD recording in advance...

Oh I know it's just a theory ....and inevitably it will fail as more and more becomes HD... but I ( and my wife! ) just can't live with that Sky EPG.


----------



## sanderton

Bakdraft said:


> Unless it is technically not possible or practically not reasonable to use the Tivo, why do that. Surely being able to record 1 channel on Tivo and a second channel on HD box is enough? ( I understand you can't record 3)


If TiVo is using the Sky+HD to record from, you can't watch anything from teh Sky+HD hard disk.

Some people work that way, but doesn't seem very practical to me.


----------



## paxton

Nor, I believe, can you watch something "live" on the SkyHD, if Tivo is recording. Remember, it may have two tuners to record, but only one output, which is the problem. It's this output that Tivo is controlling.

Which is what sanderton said, I guess, seeing as it's all on the hard-drive what with the pause feature - but I thought I'd underline the point. To myself, too, seeing as I'm in the same dilemma.  

I suppose it boils down to how much tv one records/watches.


----------



## Heuer

Bakdraft said:


> How great is that! :up:
> 
> Less than 2.5 hours after receiving a Sky HD box and someone has hacked it already!!
> 
> Upgrading it from 300Gb to 500Gb... giving an extra 200Gb of recording space (360Gb)
> 
> There are some incredibly Brave (Mad  ) people out there.. still it makes you smile


Link out of interest?


----------



## paxton

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346453


----------



## Bakdraft

paxton said:


> Nor, I believe, can you watch something "live" on the SkyHD, if Tivo is recording. Remember, it may have two tuners to record, but only one output, which is the problem. It's this output that Tivo is controlling.
> 
> Which is what sanderton said, I guess, seeing as it's all on the hard-drive what with the pause feature - but I thought I'd underline the point. To myself, too, seeing as I'm in the same dilemma.
> 
> I suppose it boils down to how much tv one records/watches.


You're are right about it's viewing habitts.

Still a little thought allows:


View 1 program on Tivo while HD records another
View 1 program recorded on Tivo while Tivo records another & HD box records yet another
Use Tivo as is now for me and no worse off
Still watch HD anytime Live
Watch recorded HD anytime

For me I still keep Tivo for 90% but Get HD on demand when I want it. What's so grim about that?  The HD part of Sky is only a tiny part..... so in other words as I am today, thus I only need to allow for the tiny (at the moment) bit that's different.


----------



## paxton

I've not got Sky+, so would like a couple of pointers . . .



> View 1 program recorded on Tivo while Tivo records another & HD box records yet another


... Is this possible? Does Sky+ decide which tuner to use at the point of recording? Tivo will use one tuner to record so Sky+ will select the other?



> Still watch HD anytime Live


... As long as Tivo doesn't want to record

Don't get me wrong, I would love to use SkyHD and the Tivo together, but I think it will cause too many problems. I'm sure there must be Sky+/Tivo users here who can shed some definite facts about the dual usage. Automan was the one who explained it in a way that made it seem pretty problematic.


----------



## sanderton

Bakdraft said:


> Still a little thought allows:
> 
> 
> View 1 program on Tivo while HD records another
> View 1 program recorded on Tivo while Tivo records another & HD box records yet another
> Use Tivo as is now for me and no worse off
> Still watch HD anytime Live
> Watch recorded HD anytime


You can't do the last two, which is the prob.


----------



## Bakdraft

sanderton said:


> You can't do the last two, which is the prob.


Hmm Let me re-phrase it then


Watch Live HD TV anytime I want i.e. when there's nothing else I want to watch or record
Watch recorded HD TV anytime I want i.e. when there's nothing else I want to watch or record

Remember true HD is still only a small time to general viewing. People have already said upscaled HD is worse than normal SD.

Is it that for some reason you think it's technically not possible to watch HD and have Tivo connected???


----------



## Automan

Gary and Sanderton have now crossed over to the "Dark Side" - Sky+ 

I see an updated BBC article said 2,500 boxes were installed on Monday.

I feel letdown.

Had original Sky working 3 days after launch.
BSB in 1st week (no squarial of course but got 3 later)
Sky Digital in 1st week
Tivo in 1st week of launch
Sky+ 1st weekend
Sky HD next Monday (if Sky don't screw up) 

Automan.


----------



## Bakdraft

Automan said:


> Gary and Sanderton have now crossed over to the "Dark Side" - Sky+
> 
> I see an updated BBC article said 2,500 boxes were installed on Monday.
> 
> I feel letdown.
> 
> Had original Sky working 3 days after launch.
> BSB in 1st week (no squarial of course but got 3 later)
> Sky Digital in 1st week
> Tivo in 1st week of launch
> Sky+ 1st weekend
> Sky HD next Monday (if Sky don't screw up)
> 
> Automan.


I know how you feel... I was meant to be tomorow... now the 2nd..

I too was an early Sky person... remember ScreenSport??

Still HD or no HD... I am not giving up onmy Tivo ... no way.... Automan... may the force be with you


----------



## OzSat

Had my HD installed today - no problems - no calls - no bumping - no cancellation - very surpised!

Anyway - the pictures are amazing on the full HD transmissions.

Also, I'm not having any problems with 16:9/4:3 switching at all.

Have tried all the video options and UKTV Gold switched to to 4:3 - and BBC1 go back to 16:9. Some seem to be having problems so its ever an old HD stb software issue - or a tv issue.

When SkyOne carries a 4:3 programme - the HD version is a 16:9 signal with a slight zoom in by Sky (not the tv) - so still 16:9 signal.

The only thing which is different is channel 631 - on SCART actually switches to 14:9 (only channel to do so) - but on HD box it is 4:3 signalled.


----------



## sanderton

Bakdraft said:


> Hmm Let me re-phrase it then
> 
> 
> Watch Live HD TV anytime I want i.e. when there's nothing else I want to watch or record
> Watch recorded HD TV anytime I want i.e. when there's nothing else I want to watch or record
> 
> Remember true HD is still only a small time to general viewing. People have already said upscaled HD is worse than normal SD.


Only being able to watch HD when there is no SD recording being made by TiVo is far too limiting. Don't know about you but most evings TiVo is recording most of the time.

I think it's too early to say about upscaled SD. I can't really judge as the only thinks I want to watch on Sky are the things in HD!


----------



## Bakdraft

6022tivo said:


> That would be great, I will pop in for the Sweden game with a beer.. lol


Great, I'll get the crisps then.... Err... I Just noticed that the England versus Sweden game is on ITV for HD !!!  Oh well just SD only then... shall we watch Eastenders instead??


----------



## cwaring

Bakdraft said:


> Err... I Just noticed that the England versus Sweden game is on ITV for HD !!!  Oh well just SD only then... shall we watch Eastenders instead??


http://www.telewestinfo.co.uk/news.shtml
(Bottom story)

Telewest 1 Sky 0


----------



## Heuer

So for those of you who have Sky HD what is the overall impression? I can understand the picture quality is good but does that compensate for the loss of TiVo usability? Be honest!


----------



## sanderton

I showed my wife how to use Sky+ last night. She kept on say "but that's silly, why have they done it like that?" every 2 mins!

Living with Sky+ for afew days has convinced me that my TiVo evangelism was 100% correct!

I have all three mainstream systems now (TiVo, MCE, Sky+) and apart from HD material (obviously) I can't see the Sky+ box getting much use.


----------



## martink0646

> I've not got Sky+, so would like a couple of pointers . . .
> 
> Quote:
> View 1 program recorded on Tivo while Tivo records another & HD box records yet another
> 
> ... Is this possible? Does Sky+ decide which tuner to use at the point of recording? Tivo will use one tuner to record so Sky+ will select the other?
> 
> Quote:
> Still watch HD anytime Live
> 
> ... As long as Tivo doesn't want to record
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I would love to use SkyHD and the Tivo together, but I think it will cause too many problems. I'm sure there must be Sky+/Tivo users here who can shed some definite facts about the dual usage. Automan was the one who explained it in a way that made it seem pretty problematic.


Paxton,

I do not have HD but I do run a TiVo/SKY+ setup.

To answer your first question, SKY+ always uses the tuner not being used to record to HDD. I don't know what happens when you try to do two recordings as I only use the SKY+ as a backup to TiVo when I have conflicts.

I have a dual setup because when I had SKY installed in Dec 05 after years of NTL, I was offered a SKY+ box for £49 and it seemed like a good deal. After using it for 15 mins I realised that I couldn't live with it & had to retain TiVo. But I still wanted to use the SKY+ functionality and be able to archive recordings to DvD from the SKY+ as well as from TiVo. I also needed to be able to record from a vanilla DvD player to my hacked, MV free DvD+/-R. Some experimentation with cables and two scart switch boxes later I had a working setup & this has been fine ever since. I don't see why a useable setup can't be worked out for HD seeing as there are HDMI switch boxes and convertors available. It just becomes a question of cost, complexity & usability. There must be plenty of people here who can advise you on a setup but if not I'd be glad to help.

As far as the second question is concerned correct. If you want to watch SKY+ recordings (or HD), then TiVo can't be recording.

Martin


----------



## paxton

Thanks very much for your reply, Martin.

I think what I'm going to do is have the HD installed, whilst retaining my current Tivo/Sky setup. That way I can try out the Tivo/Sky+ combination, as suggested by Bakdraft, but if that isn't sufficient, then I can just order another viewing card and multiroom, as Gary has done.

It's just going to be a case of suck it and see, but I have a feeling that the latter option will end up being the best solution, becasue of all the recording that Tivo does.


Many thanks to all for your contributions! :up:


----------



## Tony Hoyle

I'm happy with the dual setup - it works well.. I use the Sky+ to record movies/boxoffice stuff, and leave Tivo to do its thing.

It helps of course that there are only about 5 or 6 programmes a week I record anyway these days... Tivo is almost never recording when I'm watching it.


----------



## 6022tivo

sanderton said:


> I showed my wife how to use Sky+ last night. She kept on say "but that's silly, why have they done it like that?" every 2 mins!
> 
> Living with Sky+ for afew days has convinced me that my TiVo evangelism was 100% correct!
> 
> I have all three mainstream systems now (TiVo, MCE, Sky+) and apart from HD material (obviously) I can't see the Sky+ box getting much use.


In my Mid Tivo years, I did try Sky+ for the minimum term.
I sent many a letter to Sky about the problems I was having and received standard reply letters...
You may not be too happy with the interface now, just wait when you get home to watch something and it is not on the list and the history reports Cancelled:Unknown error 8B or some rubbish like that... Really annoying...

For me personally I will hang on. For my HD needs, I can watch HD DVD's on the Xbox 360 accessory coming soon.

http://www.xbox365.com/news.cgi?id=GGriPrNdiL05110357

I would probably like the Free to View Sky HD setup, but at £299... Deffo not.

I see a humax HD Satellite box which will allow viewing of BBC HD may be of interest to me...

Anyways, Good luck. Personally I will give Sky a wide birth after my previous experience.


----------



## kitschcamp

6022tivo said:


> I see a humax HD Satellite box which will allow viewing of BBC HD may be of interest to me...


Yeah, likewise. We don't suscribe to movies or sport, so really only the BBC stuff is of major interest, and possibly later ITV and C4. I wouldn't trust a Sky+ box again, either, after my experience with it alongside the TiVo. Missed recordings were a common occurance.


----------



## Bakdraft

paxton said:


> ... Is this possible? Does Sky+ decide which tuner to use at the point of recording? Tivo will use one tuner to record so Sky+ will select the other?


From reading the Sky+ Manual my understanding is:
Tuner 1 is used for Live TV and recording made via Live TV
Tuner 2 is used for recordings made via the search and Scan banner

You can't watch via two tuners at the same time, so as long as you record your HD programs via the search and scan banner, the 1st tuner is free for Tivo. OK it's only an interpretation as I don't have either Sky+ or HD so I stand to be corrected ( and no doubt will be  ).



paxton said:


> Still watch HD anytime Live ... As long as Tivo doesn't want to record


This statement keeps comming up and it bemuses me. It could easily be said about Tivo... and it doesn't seem to have bothered avid Tivo forum members so much.

Say you have programmed on Tivo to record a Movie at 8:00pm , and then you decide you want to watch Discovery at 8:30pm, you don't say "I could watch Discovery Live- as long as Tivo doesn't want to record" Instead you just work around it and record one or other program some other time on a repeat and then watch it later.

In fact everyone keeps going on about how they don't watch live TV, they watch recorded TV (see the poll) So I really do not understand this statement. 

I am guaranteeing that people will get fed up of that useless EPG, and unreliable recordings, and either it will work as I state, or perhaps, the Endpad prog willbe modified to solve the problem as in the other running thread. :up:


----------



## Bakdraft

6022tivo said:


> I would probably like the Free to View Sky HD setup, but at £299... Deffo not.
> 
> I see a humax HD Satellite box which will allow viewing of BBC HD may be of interest to me...


But the Humax HD Satellite box costs circa £270... saving £19!

If you are worried about the £10 subscription, as soon as Telewest/NTL etc drop it Sky will......

If not well....let's see...


----------



## Raisltin Majere

Last I saw the humax was £199 - it was in one of the general chit chat threads.


----------



## Bakdraft

Raisltin Majere said:


> Last I saw the humax was £199 - it was in one of the general chit chat threads.


We're talking pence here when the plasma alone cost £3,800 !!


----------



## cwaring

Bakdraft said:


> If you are worried about the £10 subscription, as soon as Telewest/NTL etc drop it Sky will......


TW are not currently charging anything extra for their HD content (PPV excepted, of course).

However, I am sure that, as soon as they come to an agreement with Sky for access to their HD channels (Sky One HD, etc) then they will have to start charging, if only because Sky will no-doubt charge them 

They do charge for the TVDrive itself but they do not charge to enable the recording function.


----------



## Automan

I think you might have a Sky+ manual that predates "Dual Record"

When this advanced feature was added it switched tuners as required.

Automan


Bakdraft said:


> From reading the Sky+ Manual my understanding is:
> Tuner 1 is used for Live TV and recording made via Live TV
> Tuner 2 is used for recordings made via the search and Scan banner


----------



## Bakdraft

Automan said:


> I think you might have a Sky+ manual that predates "Dual Record"
> 
> When this advanced feature was added it switched tuners as required.
> 
> Automan


The manual I have is the latest one of their internet site. It does not matter which tuner it selects the logic is still the same.

But as I say it is only interpretation.

Automan, as you have Sky+ can you explain the logic of the recording. I think that no mater which tuner you use, you can only see 1 tuner at a time and that tuner is the one that operates the record on demand function.

_If you want to record something on later and / or another channel, use the Search & Scan banner. When you see the program you want, press record_


----------



## Automan

Sky+
Either tuner will be used to make a recording. Infact Sky+ is always recording LiveTV to the hard drive thus allowing you to rewind LiveTV (just like Tivo does).

Typically as with Tivo you would normally avoid watching LiveTV to avoid thase nasty things called adverts 

Now assuming you are playing back a recording stored on the hard drive.
At this time both tuners could be recording two programs e.g. Sky One and UK Gold.

However it may be recording nothing.

From the search and scan banner which is availble during recording playback (unlike Tivo) you could select on or two programs currently on or on in the next few hours to record.

If one of the items causes a clash with another item an onscreen message will come up asking you to cancel one of the items.

If one can justify the extra £10.00 a month Tivo works best connected to its own standard digibox.

Tivo then has total control of it so it records what Tivo wants to record.

Normally with Tivo and a STB you NEVER use the STB's remote control.

However with Sky+ or Sky+ HD you will want to use the extra functions and if this is done at the same time Tivo wants to make a recording you will be in trouble.

e.g. You are watching "Blue Planet" (live or a recording) in HD and Tivo needs to record "Eastenders".

Tivo will transmit the IR and change the box to display "Eastenders" so it can record it ending your viewing of "Blue Planet".

Also if you were playing back a recording of "Blue Planet" and Sky+ is making two recordings when Tivo blast the IR a banner will come up telling you one of the two items must be cancelled if you want to view the other channel.

I hope that makes some sense 

Automan.


----------



## Bakdraft

Automan said:


> Sky+
> Either tuner will be used to make a recording. Infact Sky+ is always recording LiveTV to the hard drive thus allowing you to rewind LiveTV (just like Tivo does).
> 
> Typically as with Tivo you would normally avoid watching LiveTV to avoid thase nasty things called adverts
> 
> Now assuming you are playing back a recording stored on the hard drive.
> At this time both tuners could be recording two programs e.g. Sky One and UK Gold.
> 
> However it may be recording nothing.
> 
> From the search and scan banner which is availble during recording playback (unlike Tivo) you could select on or two programs currently on or on in the next few hours to record.
> 
> If one of the items causes a clash with another item an onscreen message will come up asking you to cancel one of the items.
> 
> If one can justify the extra £10.00 a month Tivo works best connected to its own standard digibox.
> 
> Tivo then has total control of it so it records what Tivo wants to record.
> 
> Normally with Tivo and a STB you NEVER use the STB's remote control.
> 
> However with Sky+ or Sky+ HD you will want to use the extra functions and if this is done at the same time Tivo wants to make a recording you will be in trouble.
> 
> e.g. You are watching "Blue Planet" (live or a recording) in HD and Tivo needs to record "Eastenders".
> 
> Tivo will transmit the IR and change the box to display "Eastenders" so it can record it ending your viewing of "Blue Planet".
> 
> Also if you were playing back a recording of "Blue Planet" and Sky+ is making two recordings when Tivo blast the IR a banner will come up telling you one of the two items must be cancelled if you want to view the other channel.
> 
> I hope that makes some sense
> 
> Automan.


The one common thing in you're write up is that you assume that two recordings will be made on sky plus....This I never plan to do. If I need two recordings, 1 will be on Tivo the other on SKY+ search and scan banner. I assume that a recording made via the search and scan banner will not change over the channel if you are watching live TV. What would be the point in that.. you are recording it not wanting to watch it live...

Is this thinking OK Automan?


----------



## Automan

But you still can't playback a recording made by Sky+ if at the same time Tivo wants to make a recording...

Tivo will also expect to have total control of the STB's output so will just blast the IR when it wants interupting your viewing of the Sky+ playback.

Automan.


----------



## Fozzie

Ever had the feeling this thread is going around in circles  Keep going Bakdraft; I'm sure that you can convince someone that actually has Sky+/HD that what you want is achievable. Then it's just the small matter of convincing someone to code it


----------



## Bakdraft

Automan said:


> But you still can't playback a recording made by Sky+ if at the same time Tivo wants to make a recording...
> 
> Tivo will also expect to have total control of the STB's output so will just blast the IR when it wants interupting your viewing of the Sky+ playback.
> 
> Automan.


Ooo... err.. I am really bad at expalining myself on this forum......

In a previous post I thought I explained that this could be said to be true for for Tivo as well ( I gave an example ) and nobody complains about that so for me it's a none issue....

Since I will know when and what SKY HD is about to record ( Which will only be HD ) I can work around it....

Rather than drag it on too much and bore everyone ( and annoy them as well ) too much, It's only a week away until I will find out for sure... So stay posted and I will let you know for how I get on...

But thanks for all your info and thoughts.......


----------



## Tony Hoyle

Yes I agree it's a non issue too... when you want to watch live TV you have exactly the same issue with Tivo + a standard Sky box, except you get the option to cancel the recording (watching direct is frowned upon normally, but of course is your only choice on an HD box).

Would love to be able to set this up..

An enhancement would be for the tivo to immediately cancel its own recording so you keep the advantage of dual tuners.. not sure if that's possible though.


----------



## Bakdraft

Tony Hoyle said:


> Yes I agree it's a non issue too... when you want to watch live TV you have exactly the same issue with Tivo + a standard Sky box, except you get the option to cancel the recording (watching direct is frowned upon normally, but of course is your only choice on an HD box).
> 
> Would love to be able to set this up..
> 
> An enhancement would be for the tivo to immediately cancel its own recording so you keep the advantage of dual tuners.. not sure if that's possible though.


Tony, when are you due for HD?


----------



## Tony Hoyle

I've got it now, but work commitments mean I don't have time to look at the script.

Since the stuff I record tends to be on at odd times like 4am or the middle of the afternoon, when i'm not watching, it's really not been an issue - I watch the SkyHD box live pretty much all the time. There are some programmes at the end of the week that will be a test of how annoying the switch is (might not be annoying at all - I *do* want to watch these programmes after all).

It's been surprisingly easy to 'de-tivo' my viewing at least temporarily... OTOH Sky+ doesn't support even the functionality that i need - like series links that work, don't delete themselves, and work on all channels - so I'm going to need some integration there eventually.


----------



## Bakdraft

I know some of you kind members have had HD for a few days now. I was hoping one or more of you had had a chance to examine the HD remote control codes and how comaptible they are with Tivo.

I have tried searching the other forums for info DS, AVF but there are so many new posts relating to HD it's chaos.

As I understand it the new HD remote control has:
It's own new set of control codes BUT
It will also accept commands from a Sky+ control.

1. Is this correct
2. How many functions for controlling the HD box are missing from using the Sky+ remote control to do it instead
3. How easy would it be to have added to the Tivo Db the new HD control codes (assuming the Sky+ codes cannot suffice)

I though I read somewhere that currently the code for a Sky+ is a Grundig 2018 is this correct? if not does anyone remember what it is?

Thanks :up:


----------



## GarySargent

Not confirmed it myself personally, but a Sky+ remote will control a SkyHD box, so TiVo should be able to control it fine using code 20017.

If we need to add the new HD codes I could do that, but there doesn't seem much point.


----------



## Bakdraft

GarySargent said:


> Not confirmed it myself personally, but a Sky+ remote will control a SkyHD box, so TiVo should be able to control it fine using code 20017.
> 
> If we need to add the new HD codes I could do that, but there doesn't seem much point.


Yeah, I agree not much point if the Sky+ commands will do all that is necessary, but if say to trigger a record only the New HD commands will do, then that might be a reason

Thanks for the 20017 code


----------



## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> Not confirmed it myself personally, but a Sky+ remote will control a SkyHD box, so TiVo should be able to control it fine using code 20017.
> 
> If we need to add the new HD codes I could do that, but there doesn't seem much point.


I can confirm the Sky+ remote fully controls the SkyHD.


----------



## OzSat

But the HD buttons do not operate Sky+


----------



## Automan

You will all start to use your Sky HD system more and your Tivo less...

My living room Tivo may be on 3 to 4hrs per seven days and Sky+ is used for all other TV viewing.

Welcome to the dark side along with 1.4 million other happy Sky+ users 

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

Sorry to disappoint but my Sky HD box has crashed at least 6 times already requiring a power cycle. All I was doing was fast forwarding!

Seems very flakey I have to say, and not a patch on TiVo functionally.

I've now got my multiroom Sky card and am so glad to have TiVo recording again! Just using the Sky box for HD material now...


----------



## Bakdraft

GarySargent said:


> Sorry to disappoint but my Sky HD box has crashed at least 6 times already requiring a power cycle. All I was doing was fast forwarding!
> 
> Seems very flakey I have to say, and not a patch on TiVo functionally.
> 
> I've now got my multiroom Sky card and am so glad to have TiVo recording again! Just using the Sky box for HD material now...


I have read on other forums that a lot of people were having crash problems...


----------



## Tony Hoyle

Early adopter risk... it's bound to be buggy - just compare to the originally shipped Tivo software that really wasn't ready for release (it took me about half a day to upgrade because it wasn't stable enough to do the upgrade without crashing).

Not had any SkyHD crashes yet. It's still not a patch on Tivo.. horrid EPG.


----------



## sanderton

No crashes yet. Fast forward doesn't work properly. And Lordy I miss 30 second skip.

But the lovely picture....

Football looked great tonight as did the cricket, and I've just watched Bones and Stargate Atlantis - lovely.


----------



## GarySargent

I was disappointed with 24 in HD, and no 5.1 surround.


----------



## paxton

Gary, just curious . . . have you got your multiroom setup with everything in the one room on the one panel, or do you have your skybox/Tivo combination in a seperate room?

If it's all on the same panel, I was wondering if there is a clash controlling the SkyHD box and the Skybox together. Or is it just SkyHD and Sky+ box that control each other with the one remote?

Many thanks.

Steve


----------



## OzSat

Bakdraft said:


> I have read on other forums that a lot of people were having crash problems...


Not had one here yet - Day 4.


----------



## GarySargent

paxton said:


> If it's all on the same panel, I was wondering if there is a clash controlling the SkyHD box and the Skybox together. Or is it just SkyHD and Sky+ box that control each other with the one remote?


Yes all in the same room. There is no clash between a standard Sky box and SkyHD.


----------



## paxton

Smashing. :up: 

Thanks.


----------



## eric23

Gary, I think the problem with the sound on 24 is something to do with them playing back the wrong audio track in the playout centre. Apparently it is common to have a 5.1 mix on, say, channel 1 and a stereo track on channel 2 (on the tapes - DigiBeta I imagine). People have been talking about it on Digital Spy too.


----------



## sanderton

I haven't seen anything make the 5.1 light come on on my amp yet.


----------



## GarySargent

Not double checked but I'm pretty sure the BBC preview is in 5.1.

It's come on a few times for me on other HD channels so I'd check your connections Sanderton.


----------



## tonywalk

Pooh! Just got a letter saying I've been bumped. How disgraceful is that, one working day before install should have happened next Wednesday.

They've given me a new date of 17th June when I'm back in work.

I'm just on to Sky now (17 minute wait the message said) - it might not be pretty!

Can someone change my vote from "not bumped" to "bumped" - ta!

A depressed Tony.


----------



## chimaera

There was never any point having a bumped/not bumped poll, since most likely everyone from the second day onwards will be moved back, for some time to come. They say that they are working to increase production of the boxes, but it seems unlikely that they didn't schedule the installs already assuming that the factory would be running at capacity, so they are unlikely to catch up. Then there's the issue of the availability of installers. What's more, the delays are lengthening, from a day or two initially, to a fortnight.

Mine has moved from 1st June to 16th, but it's not the end of the world (although it seems to be for a lot of people on the other forums).


----------



## GarySargent

Blimey am recording four programmes at once at 10pm!

SkyHD handling High Definition versions of Planet Earth and Meet the Fockers, two TiVo's handling Triangle on BBC (via Sky multiroom) and Big Brother on Ch4 (via Freeview).


----------



## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> Blimey am recording four programmes at once at 10pm!
> 
> SkyHD handling High Definition versions of Planet Earth and Meet the Fockers, two TiVo's handling Triangle on BBC (via Sky multiroom) and Big Brother on Ch4 (via Freeview).


Be interested to know if you get the black dot on one of your two HD recordings.


----------



## sanderton

Black dot?


----------



## OzSat

Dead pixels or am I going mad?

Best created by doing two timed manual simultaneous records of HD channels.


----------



## OzSat

Its the manual record that does it (i your have PINs active) - not two recordings.

Put a lock on a programme and the square is there - take it off and its gone.


----------



## poissony

Well I assume quite a few of you will have watched (or recorded) Planet Earth, was it as great as expected?


----------



## sanderton

Oh yes.


----------



## OzSat

The black dot is caused by PIN protection on SkyHD - which is why by 'manual records' were getting it.

If SkyHD prompts for a PIN for a recording playback then the black dot appears - no PIN no black dot.


----------



## groovyclam

If you get a SkyHD box and let the sub lapse / pull the card out - does BBC HD still work for live viewing ?


----------



## Automan

Install started just after 09:00 and finished at 11:00

A few snags
Engineer said dish had to be changed and then set one up with a quad lnb.

He then swapped it for a octo one 

All three of my viewing cards had to be repaired and swapped between boxes.

This was okay with Sky HD and Sky+ but not my other one in the living room.

The box kept quiting during the authorise process 

Tried re-flashing hardware and we were about to try the retired box when the engineer noted the IR light flashing on the STB.

OF COURSE! It was the Tivo dog removal blast of backup key canceling the install process.

So *BEWARE*, if you have any such devices on RF2 disable them 1st when trying to pair viewing cards.

1st thoughts on Sky HD - Picture seems okay but 4:3 channels are stretched and my TV has no override 

Channel change slow and of course not much material on at 11:00am to try it on.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

The engineer set my box to 1080i mode.
Cool, but in this mode 4:3 channels are shown stretched to 16:9 

The answer is "Auto"

It then says 576p for normal Sky One, nothing for UK Gold and 1080i for the others.

Engineer also did not connect scart cable which of course I need for my DVD recorder.

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

The 4:3 stretched mode seems to be a tv issue. I'm using HDMI and 1080i and get correct 4:3 switching on those channels I would expect.

My installer decided to put a new card in my HD box - and everything was working (HD/Sky+) within minutes - but Sky were not too happy when I spoke to them later. They were going to get me to repair them but decided to leave them as they were working.

My Octo LNB gives higher signal ratings on my old Sky+ box then the QuadLNB did that it replaced.

1080i is what my installer was told it should be set to - he said Sky had told all installers this. Sky TS also confirmed 1080i should now be used and the manual was now incorrect.


----------



## Fozzie

Is it true though that on Auto, there's a couple of seconds delay between SD & HD switching?

Guess I'll find out next Friday when mine's installed, and whether my Pio 436XDE will switch correctly on 1080i


----------



## OzSat

I get a second delay - I guess while the tv reformats itself to the new input type.

This does not happen it you select a fixed mode - maybe why Sky now say set it to 1080i.


----------



## Gaspode

I was a 22nd install - so I was lucky enough to be installed monday ... 

Now i need the setup code for tivo to change the channel being viewed ...


----------



## OzSat

Pace 20017 - the Sky+ code.


----------



## GarySargent

The Pioneer 436XDE is fine with Auto mode, though the SkyHD box keeps going into a strange stretched mode and I have to change channels to get it to correct itself. Seems to be the box not the TV.

Also I'm begining to be a little underwhelmed by HD broadcasts such as 24 and Human Traffik on Sky One. The picture just isn't that much better than SD, but I think this is partly because the 436XDE TV is excellent at displaying SD material in the first place - seems to scale it up exceptionally well.

Some HD shots do look really jaw dropping, but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule.


----------



## Fozzie

Thanks Gary. Has your panel been ISF'd? I think I'll get mine done once the Sky installation has been done.


----------



## GarySargent

No but I'd expect that to only affect the tones of the colours and contrast etc, not the underlying detail of the picture.

I did run the THX optimiser that comes with Star Wars films and the TV came out as calibrated fine.

I'd probably go the ISF route if someone recommended an engineer in my area (West Yorkshire).


----------



## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> .. I'm begining to be a little underwhelmed by HD broadcasts such as 24 and Human Traffik on Sky One. The picture just isn't that much better than SD, but I think this is partly because the 436XDE TV is excellent at displaying SD material in the first place - seems to scale it up exceptionally well.
> 
> Some HD shots do look really jaw dropping, but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule.


More wife is a big 'Bones' fan - and said that it didn't seem much better picture than before - not when you see what some HD programming is producing.

Behaps its a Sky One thing - although some older films on Sky Movies just don't sem to warrent the HD tag.


----------



## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> The Pioneer 436XDE is fine with Auto mode, though the SkyHD box keeps going into a strange stretched mode and I have to change channels to get it to correct itself. Seems to be the box not the TV.


Overall, your 4:3 switching is as it should be - with big pillarboxing?


----------



## sanderton

ozsat said:


> More wife is a big 'Bones' fan - and said that it didn't seem much better picture than before - not when you see what some HD programming is producing.


I watched Bones in HD and normally watch it in SD and it was way, way better, pic quality wise.

The thing is, shows like Bones and 24 are _meant_ to be dark and fuzzy in places, that's the look the director is going for. Thae aren't trying to impress you with the screen resolution. 

I'm also convinced that there's a similar effect you get with medium wave music radio. The absolute quality of MW radio is hideous in the extreme, but you can listen to it just fine because your brain "hears" the song, not the distorted sound. We've watched artifact riddled SD so long that we "see" the picture as our brains think it should be. When presented with an HD picture which is much closer to what we think we should see, we don't notice the difference because we still just see what we expected.

Only A-B switching reveals the horror of SD and the scale of the improvement.


----------



## katman

sanderton said:


> We've watched artifact riddled SD so long that we "see" the picture as our brains think it should be. When presented with an HD picture which is much closer to what we think we should see, we don't notice the difference because we still just see what we expected.


I dont have HD so cant comment on the HD pictures but I do remember when we first got a colour TV.

Some programmes were vastly different in colour, they just leapt out of the screen, whilst others didnt really seem any different. Disney cartoons looked really great.

I remember when Coronation Street came on it didnt seem that impressive, probably because, as you say, our brains already knew what the colours should be so we were "seeing" it in colour even on a Black and White set.


----------



## Automan

Now I have my box it would seem no actual programs are scheduled after tonight in HD (other than the rolling demo) 

Next week for two hours an evening they have some programs e.g. Eastenders "Not Originated in HD"

What is the point of that? No "Blue Planet", no "Bleak House" (1st half of series).

Watched today's Enterprise and I thought the black level was wrong.

Otherwise picture is cool but like Gary I suspect the Panasonic SD signal processing is pretty good and thus SD / HD difference is not that great.

However I now want to see a HQ HD program on a true 1920x1080 panel to see if any diference can be detected at normal viewing distances.

*A/V AMP Control*
In case you are not aware the Sky HD remote can be setup to control your A/V AMP rather than your TV volume.

See http://www.morlocks.co.uk/remote-setup.htm
Only difference seems to be is to check code is working by trying right cursor key which should mute audio rather than left for standby. That's the case with my Yamaha amp anyway.

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

sanderton said:


> I watched Bones in HD and normally watch it in SD and it was way, way better, pic quality wise.
> 
> The thing is, shows like Bones and 24 are _meant_ to be dark and fuzzy in places, that's the look the director is going for. Thae aren't trying to impress you with the screen resolution.


The HD pictures of Malcolm on the Middle are the same - guess we are expecting too much after seeing some other programmes.

Also, I have noticed you soon get used to the HD picture - and it is only going SD that reminds you that you were in HD.


----------



## OzSat

Automan said:


> Now I have my box it would seem no actual programs are scheduled after tonight in HD (other than the rolling demo)
> 
> Next week for two hours an evening they have some programs e.g. Eastenders "Not Originated in HD"
> 
> What is the point of that? No "Blue Planet", no "Bleak House" (1st half of series).
> 
> ...
> 
> Automan.


The evening programmes on BBCHD are an inset picture - within borders all round which a caption.

TiVo were asked not to list these programmes as there are not intended for the HD preview. It seems they have to broadcast something other then promos to hold their EPG slot.

The next HD programme on BBC HD is Match of the Day Live at 4pm on Friday 9th June - that is the channels real launch day.


----------



## GarySargent

Bit harsh to pick on the BBC HD channel as this is the only HD channel currently in a trial, so you can't expect a full schedule yet.


----------



## Gaspode

ozsat said:


> Pace 20017 - the Sky+ code.


Brill - Thanks


----------



## Automan

My new box has let me down three times so far this week 

Has trouble listing epg several days into the future, no guide data and no picture when brought out of standby.

On investigation I note on the Signal page lock is okay but the other two fields are 0000

I remember this problem from the old days and if you go to add a manual channel the values are corrected for a short while.

Sky+ in the kitchen fed from the same octo lnb has had no problems and as mentioned by ozsat had higher signal levels than it had before with my old dish.

Also out shopping yesterday in Harrods and noted they have an LG 102" Plasma TV in the window - Now thats what I call a big screen!

In their TV area they had my Panasonic TV fed from a computer and its picture to me seemed better than that from Sky HD.

My brother is also over from the USA and he says their HD image is close to looking almost 3D but nothing I have seen on Sky comes quite up to that standard.

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

Yes it does seem like we are beta testers but paying £10 per month for that right! It can't even fast forward properly, the speeds are completely wrong, and the fastest speed is so slow it is unbearable when it comes to going through some adverts. I almost have time to make a cuppa!


----------



## Heuer

GarySargent said:


> No but I'd expect that to only affect the tones of the colours and contrast etc, not the underlying detail of the picture.
> 
> I did run the THX optimiser that comes with Star Wars films and the TV came out as calibrated fine.
> 
> I'd probably go the ISF route if someone recommended an engineer in my area (West Yorkshire).


Eric at Cinema Experience: http://www.cinemaexperience.com/
Gordon at Convergent: http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/

Used both (two plasmas) and they are truly excellent. They travel.


----------



## cyril

Automan said:


> My new box has let me down three times so far this week
> 
> Has trouble listing epg several days into the future, no guide data and no picture when brought out of standby.
> 
> On investigation I note on the Signal page lock is okay but the other two fields are 0000
> 
> I remember this problem from the old days and if you go to add a manual channel the values are corrected for a short while.
> 
> Sky+ in the kitchen fed from the same octo lnb has had no problems and as mentioned by ozsat had higher signal levels than it had before with my old dish.
> 
> Also out shopping yesterday in Harrods and noted they have an LG 102" Plasma TV in the window - Now thats what I call a big screen!
> 
> In their TV area they had my Panasonic TV fed from a computer and its picture to me seemed better than that from Sky HD.
> 
> My brother is also over from the USA and he says their HD image is close to looking almost 3D but nothing I have seen on Sky comes quite up to that standard.
> 
> Automan.


I've had the screen blank out on me 3 or 4 times so far. I am on firmware 'n'.

The Sky HD interface is a pile of poo compared to TiVo.

But my HD Fuji won't turn up till next week, so I hope the image quality will be somewhat better.

I guess the Harrods feed is probably a true 1080p signal with high bitrate which should be better than anything broadcast on Sky.

I mean for a TV that costs £750,000 I think the feed must be top notch.


----------



## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> Yes it does seem like we are beta testers but paying £10 per month for that right! It can't even fast forward properly, the speeds are completely wrong, and the fastest speed is so slow it is unbearable when it comes to going through some adverts. I almost have time to make a cuppa!


I suspect the Sky had a release date to meet - whether the software was ready or not - and it isn't really bad - just niggly.

Sky+ wasn't perfect when it came out - and I think the idea here is that HD is Sky+ - and so a few things are not quite ready.

Software wise - even if it was bug free - it wouldn't be a match for TiVo.


----------



## OzSat

cyril said:


> I've had the screen blank out on me 3 or 4 times so far. I am on firmware 'n'.


As Q is the current version of HD software - you should force an update.

Installers are instructed to do this - and there should have been a big yellow sticker on the stb as a reminder.


----------



## cyril

ozsat said:


> As Q is the current version of HD software - you should force an update.
> 
> Installers are instructed to do this - and there should have been a big yellow sticker on the stb as a reminder.


Yes - the installer pulled off the sticker and so I thought he had updated it to the latest version when he was setting it up.

What does 'q' fix (or what bugs does it re-introduce  )?


----------



## OzSat

BBC HD only has World Cup football from 9th to 16th June (note as I type Digiguide listings are wrong as there is live football most afternoons and/or evenings).

I guess they will save pre-recorded stuff until after World Cup/Wimbledon.


----------



## OzSat

cyril said:


> Yes - the installer pulled off the sticker and so I thought he had updated it to the latest version when he was setting it up.
> 
> What does 'q' fix (or what bugs does it re-introduce  )?


It takes around 15 minutes to update and q has been the only version available since the public launch.

No idea what it fixes.


----------



## Automan

Really, £3/4 Million for a TV! - Seems steep even for 102"

Sony had their kit being fed from a BlueRay DVD player which I suppose gives them the best possible image for a dealer demo.

I also noted the LG demo kept moving their bright white LG logo around the screen 

Automan.

P.S. My HD box is on "q"

Automan.


cyril said:


> I've had the screen blank out on me 3 or 4 times so far. I am on firmware 'n'.
> 
> The Sky HD interface is a pile of poo compared to TiVo.
> 
> But my HD Fuji won't turn up till next week, so I hope the image quality will be somewhat better.
> 
> I guess the Harrods feed is probably a true 1080p signal with high bitrate which should be better than anything broadcast on Sky.
> 
> I mean for a TV that costs £750,000 I think the feed must be top notch.


----------



## Bakdraft

Finally..... Finally.......my day has come around....

The Sky installer called me to say he would be around between 9:00am to 11:00am tomorrow.

I am still dreading the possibility of an on the day cancellation.. a second would not go down well...

Anyway... if any of you guys have any questions you wish you had asked the installer but forgot to.... then post them here and I will ask away.

Equally if you have things you think I should ask for or get him to do etc... please let me know.

As you can tell from previous posts I am only interested in the HD part of the box and fully intend to keep on using my Tivo to the full.... Having seen the number of bugs, reset's etc... I am thinking it's the best way to go!!

I hope it goes well


----------



## Automan

Good luck.
You could ask him why they did not make the red button in the search and scan banner just display HD channels in much the same way the blue button does for your favorites.

It will also be interesting to see what setting you end up with for "HD Resolution Output".

Automan.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

Well, tell you what, since getting HD and retiring the TiVo...i am blown away by the quality of decent SD channels, particularly BBC1 and Five. It's like i've been looking at them the last 4 years through a pair of stockings! The EPG may be no comparison, but it's workable enough, everything i've wanted recorded has been, it's not crashed or lost time, and the PQ is absolutely fantastic. Obviously Planet Earth is a stand-out.


----------



## cyril

I updated to 3.10q yesterday.

It later got stuck on 'start and press select to play' and I had to reboot.
Was fine for the evening I think, but when I woke up today all my overnight recordings had failed .

Not sure if I am better off than 3.10n !


----------



## OzSat

I've not lost any recordings now (touchwood) and had it over a week. Does 2-4 a day.


----------



## OzSat

Any notice the HD box on Ebay is now over £2,000 ?


----------



## Automan

I did not realise till today (after reading another site) that recordings made from a Sky viewing card protected channel can not be played back unless the viewing card that was in the box is present.

Sky tend to swap the cards around at install so your master card in is Sky HD.

Thus most of my old recordings can no longer be viewed, saved etc 

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

I was aware of that, although it should have been made clear.

In my case the put the new card in the HD box - and so Sky+ still has the same card.


----------



## chimaera

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> Well, tell you what, since getting HD and retiring the TiVo...i am blown away by the quality of decent SD channels, particularly BBC1 and Five. It's like i've been looking at them the last 4 years through a pair of stockings! The EPG may be no comparison, but it's workable enough, everything i've wanted recorded has been, it's not crashed or lost time, and the PQ is absolutely fantastic. Obviously Planet Earth is a stand-out.


Ooh, that could be considered blasphemy here you know  However, I do tend to agree. Much as I love my TiVo it has been relegated to mainly providing a good EPG and mechanism for finding programmes. I've been using a Freeview twin tuner PVR for some time, and as time has passed, I have found I used that instead wherever possible. Consequently TiVo is only used to record satellite channels which aren't on Freeview, most of which don't have a great picture quality to start with. When HD is finally installed in a couple of weeks, my TiVo will be retiring with a long and distinguished service record behind it.


----------



## Bakdraft

Finally it is installed and working fine...phew!!

But wait, What is amazing is not the HD picture..which is clearly excellent... although not as good as I was sort of expecting...

But the Tivo picture is now miles better than it was :up: :up: 

Infact ... there is virtually no difference between the HD picture and the Tivo picture

Now I know that you week old HD people are going to say rubbish.. but it's true...
so true I am willing to bet that 6022Tivo if he pops in would agree with me!  

How can this be? I can only assume that since the Tivo is being fed via the RGB scart on the HD box, that the HD box upscales the RGB to HD and this is what Tivo is recording.

Proof.... you know when you get a scene with a lot of Blue in it such as an ocean or perhaps the stars in ST next generation etc... and you used o get swirls etc... not any more a perfect picture...

I really am not exagerating.... even the installer questioned why I was buying HD when the Tivo was so good, and this is on my 50" Plasma

Switching between the BBC preview and Tivo shows little difference ( although there clearly is ). 

This is great news as it means my Tivo has good life in it yet.

Surely you others must have noticed this??

Of course the only draw back is that Tivo is only stero, but my Amp helps in this dept.

Wow!


----------



## sanderton

If you watch an HD channel on the Sky box and route the output of that through the TiVo then the result will be quite good. The banding you describe is a "feature" of MPEG2 and the TiVo accentuates it because the picture gets MPEG-2's twice; MPEG4 is much better and doesn't suffer from the banding anywhere near so much so TiVo has a better source to record.

However I doubt there's any difference if you recorded an SD channel on the Sky box.


----------



## Bakdraft

sanderton said:


> If you watch an HD channel on the Sky box and route the output of that through the TiVo then the result will be quite good. The banding you describe is a "feature" of MPEG2 and the TiVo accentuates it because the picture gets MPEG-2's twice; MPEG4 is much better and doesn't suffer from the banding anywhere near so much so TiVo has a better source to record.


Thanks for the detailed explantion... I am sure it's spot on.... but it means the same thing Tivo is miles better with the HD box!



sanderton said:


> However I doubt there's any difference if you recorded an SD channel on the Sky box.


Again, you could be right, but there is only small difference between the HD picture and the Tivo Picture... Everyone who has seen it agrees. That's not saying there is no difference however... only a small difference...

I should point out that I am using Mode zero.


----------



## OzSat

For those who missed their favourite HD programmes on Sky One during the past few months - Sky are repeating some from in the early hours of the morning (around 1.30am) from Sunday morning onwards.

The last series on '24' will also be shown (again) in HD.


----------



## Automan

Peaked at £6000.00 and now down to £521.00 (Auction Hijack victim).

Automan.


ozsat said:


> Any notice the HD box on Ebay is now over £2,000 ?


----------



## Fozzie

Had my Sky HD installed for 2 days now and have been pretty impressed with the images so far, on my 436XDE (although I have mainly been watching the cricket, which looks stunning).

Although different aspect ratios were displaying fine with the box on 1080i, I reckon SD looks much better with the box on Auto (and outputting 576p); the image is brighter, cleaner and sharper. I guess the Pio doing a single upscale is better than the Sky box upscaling then the Pio re-scaling again. I can live with the second or so delay when switching between SD & HD.

Apart from the cr*p EPG and UI (which I'll see if I can get used to before resurrecting Tivo) I've only got two issues so far:

1. The audio ouput (across the HDMI connection - haven't used the opto output yet) is somewhat lower for HD channels than SD channels.

2. On some broadcasts (cricket & one of the Nat Geo animal programs!) I've noticed a horizontal band across the screen that pulses about twice a second. The images blurs in and out of focus. On the cricket, I notice it on the long shot across the pitch looking at the crowd/stadium, about two thirds of the way up the screen. I think I've read on the AVforums that other people had noticed it?

Anyone else noticed these 2 things? Is there a specific place to report stuff like this or is it just through the standard Sky CS number?


----------



## OzSat

Fozzie

In 1080i mode, does your tv switch to 4:3 for UKTV Gold? What tv are you using.

I have noticed that upscaled programmes seem to have low audio on HD channels - but the HD programmes seem normal.

The banding seems to be a transmission fault or perhaps receiver fault - but seems most are noticing it.


Faults number is: 08702 435 000 - select option 2 for HD


----------



## Fozzie

ozsat said:


> In 1080i mode, does your tv switch to 4:3 for UKTV Gold? What tv are you using.


Yep, just tested with box set to Auto and 1080i; UKTV Gold is displayed in 4:3; confirmed with Plasmas OSD as 625p 4:3 and 1125i 4:3 repectively. Screen is Pioneer 436XDE (same as Gary's IIRC).



> I have noticed that upscaled programmes seem to have low audio on HD channels - but the HD programmes seem normal.


I'm noticing it between 'proper' HD broadcasts on HD channels and SD on SD channels. e.g. take a look at the cricket now, and switch between Sky Sports 1 and Sky Sports HD - do you notice any audio difference?



> The banding seems to be a transmission fault or perhaps receiver fault - but seems most are noticing it.


Hopefully the former!



> Faults number is: 08702 435 000 - select option 2 for HD


Thanks


----------



## OzSat

Fozzie said:


> I'm noticing it between 'proper' HD broadcasts on HD channels and SD on SD channels. e.g. take a look at the cricket now, and switch between Sky Sports 1 and Sky Sports HD - do you notice any audio difference?


Yes - but not a major issue - and they are in different transmission formats.


----------



## Major dude

Quick question on HD channels available on Sky HD. I noticed that TiVo on my freeview box has detected ITV HD, Channel 4 and 5 HD, but none are listed on the Sky EPG. So only the BBC world cup games can be seen in HD. Is this right? 

Sky HD was installed yesterday at 7.45am. The Sky installer was excellent and gave me his number if I need an extra link to a box on the Ground floor. I have installed the HD box in my bedroom. Its a little loud so I will be turning it off at night. 
First impressions of Sky + are that the interface is really clunky compared with TiVo and confirms to me what a brilliant product TiVo is. Assess to the epg listings is soooooo slooooooow on sky and access to the planner is via two button presses. Building up a to do list or planner is so much more difficult ........scroll across..... scoll down........highlight the programme.........press R. 

Does anyone know how well the series link works?


----------



## OzSat

Major dude said:


> Quick question on HD channels available on Sky HD. I noticed that TiVo on my freeview box has detected ITV HD, Channel 4 and 5 HD, but none are listed on the Sky EPG. So only the BBC world cup games can be seen in HD. Is this right?


TiVo does not detect channels on you Freeview box, It has them added independently. TiVo adding something for Freeview does not mean you receiver has detected it or is even capable of receiving it.

If you are in London then you may be able to receive the ITV HD transmissions via Freeview - although the recievers are limited.

SkyHD will only provide you access to BBCHD, not ITVHD.


----------



## Automan

In Eastbourne today and I noted they have Sky HD up and running.
It was tuned to a dealer channel which seems not to be in the EPG (manual add maybe?).

It was feeding 3 x Sony LCD TV's via HDMI via a spiltter amp gadget.

One of these was their new 46" (I think) 1920x1080 pixel model (£4600.00).

Granted pixels smaller but I think my 42" Panasonic gives a better picture than any of them when compared with the BBC demo and later a live football match.

Colours were not pure. e.g. in the Jools Holland bit the large velvet chair tended to change colours / tecture.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

BBC HD still also has nothing to watch other than the promo loop and football.

Why can't they fit in the odd episode of an actual program in HD e.g. Bleak House or Planet Earth?

Automan.


----------



## sanderton

I have all the Planet Earths set to Keep in the planner. You didn't get your install early enough Automan!


----------



## OzSat

sanderton said:


> I have all the Planet Earths set to Keep in the planner. You didn't get your install early enough Automan!


Yes - they were a very good 'one time only' HD broadcast over the bank holiday weekend. 

I suspect that other programmes will appear once football and tennis are out of the way.


----------



## cyril

I've now got my Fujitsu P63xha51 - BBC HD is truly AWESOME!!!! 

It's difficult to watch non-HD channels now!

I guess I will have to SDI mod my TiVo and get a scaler for it.


----------



## leemcg

Whilst the picture quality on the few HD programs looks great, I am really really hating the Sky+. I am so glad I kept my Tivo on my old Sky box with multi room...

They didn't send me a new sky card, so my Tivo has been down for the last four days I've been out of the country. I set SkyHD to record 24 and it just didn't, no messages, no recording history, no reason. Nothing. The next time this episode is on is in 2 weeks (TiVo tells me - can't search for programs on Sky+) but I can't even set a recording on SkyHD that far ahead.


Just started live pause (ie. pause and play running a bit behind real time), and tried the EPG - won't let me do so unless I exit live pause.

Having watched a program, there seems to be no easy way to delete the program, you have to go back to the list and delete the program.


I'm sure people who have never used something as easy to use as Tivo, never complain about this kind of stuff, but I am finding it infuriating.


My current plan is to keep current TiVo doing all my recording. Look through the ToDo list and copy any HD recordings onto the HD box. Will also use SkyHD for live sport, and perhaps any other kind of Live TV (although I can't really remember last time I watched live TV).


Lee


----------



## Bakdraft

cyril said:


> I've now got my Fujitsu P63xha51 - BBC HD is truly AWESOME!!!!
> 
> It's difficult to watch non-HD channels now!
> 
> I guess I will have to SDI mod my TiVo and get a scaler for it.


Wow! That's some screen! 

HD was the only way to go for you!


----------



## Bakdraft

leemcg said:


> Whilst the picture quality on the few HD programs looks great, I am really really hating the Sky+. I am so glad I kept my Tivo on my old Sky box with multi room...
> 
> They didn't send me a new sky card, so my Tivo has been down for the last four days I've been out of the country. I set SkyHD to record 24 and it just didn't, no messages, no recording history, no reason. Nothing. The next time this episode is on is in 2 weeks (TiVo tells me - can't search for programs on Sky+) but I can't even set a recording on SkyHD that far ahead.
> 
> Just started live pause (ie. pause and play running a bit behind real time), and tried the EPG - won't let me do so unless I exit live pause.
> 
> Having watched a program, there seems to be no easy way to delete the program, you have to go back to the list and delete the program.
> 
> I'm sure people who have never used something as easy to use as Tivo, never complain about this kind of stuff, but I am finding it infuriating.
> 
> My current plan is to keep current TiVo doing all my recording. Look through the ToDo list and copy any HD recordings onto the HD box. Will also use SkyHD for live sport, and perhaps any other kind of Live TV (although I can't really remember last time I watched live TV).
> 
> Lee


Tivo... no way to do without it!!!! HD or not. I Like you are using the HD box just for the HD functions and when I need to record extra programs.

My Tivo is fine in mode 0 :up:


----------



## sanderton

leemcg said:


> Having watched a program, there seems to be no easy way to delete the program, you have to go back to the list and delete the program.


In some ways I was pleased that my TiVo evangilism ove the years was right, but it really is a bunch or arse isn't it?

The quote above is the only one I've almost workaround for - when a show finishes, hit Backup to be back in the planner, rather than Stop, which takes you to Liove TV. The right show won't be highlighted, but hey...

I hadn't realised how essential 30 second skip is.

SkyHD is used strictly for HD recordings only, everything else is TiVo or MCE. (Not jsut because of the interface, with the Planet Earths and a couple of films the disk is full - I can't record the football as it takes ~20% of the disk space!)


----------



## Automan

For quick delete after viewing press backup to return to planner and yellow to delete.

The onscreen basic "whats on" is still availble at any time but it is true if you want the full epg you have to exit deleayed livetv.

Automan.


leemcg said:


> Whilst the picture quality on the few HD programs looks great, I am really really hating the Sky+. I am so glad I kept my Tivo on my old Sky box with multi room...
> 
> They didn't send me a new sky card, so my Tivo has been down for the last four days I've been out of the country. I set SkyHD to record 24 and it just didn't, no messages, no recording history, no reason. Nothing. The next time this episode is on is in 2 weeks (TiVo tells me - can't search for programs on Sky+) but I can't even set a recording on SkyHD that far ahead.
> 
> Just started live pause (ie. pause and play running a bit behind real time), and tried the EPG - won't let me do so unless I exit live pause.
> 
> Having watched a program, there seems to be no easy way to delete the program, you have to go back to the list and delete the program.
> 
> I'm sure people who have never used something as easy to use as Tivo, never complain about this kind of stuff, but I am finding it infuriating.
> 
> My current plan is to keep current TiVo doing all my recording. Look through the ToDo list and copy any HD recordings onto the HD box. Will also use SkyHD for live sport, and perhaps any other kind of Live TV (although I can't really remember last time I watched live TV).
> 
> Lee


----------



## GarySargent

Great - now seems like Sky HD boxes are frying TV's when hooked up through HDMI! Time to switch to component....

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355974


----------



## OzSat

But one of the guys involved in this runs his 'live' HDMI cable across the metal casing of his amp to "see little sparks and hear a buzzing sound."

It is more likely that plugging in the leads while powered is causing the problems - he admits not to reading the manuals on plugging in equipment.


I was warned by a technician to be careful with HDMI as they had blown an HDMI input plugging a powered DVD into the socket.


----------



## chimaera

I had a bit of a scare about five minutes after the engineer left after installation. I moved the HD box back a bit, and the HDMI connection stopped working, initally with a lot of noise, then just a green screen. I tried powering off the TV, the switch, the HD box, and nothing made any difference. I double checked the cable was seated correctly at both ends. I tested the TV with my DVD player, and it was fine via HDMI. I tried a different cable, and the HD box still wouldn't output anything via HDMI. As a last resort, I pulled the mains plug on the HD box and left it for a while. When I plugged it back in again, HDMI was working fine.

The 'engineer' set my HDMI output to 576p, I have no idea why. Needless to say I just nodded politely when he demonstrated how good the picture was, and as soon as he left, switched it to 1080i for a proper one.

Oh, and Sky+ functionality is my worst nightmare. It's truly awful - even my Freeview PVR is much better. How Sky can charge for something so cheap, nasty and dated is beyond me.


----------



## Automan

The Sky+ interface is a bit primitive but is now of course in over a million homes in the UK.

It does have a few shortcuts which you may have not noticed yet...

For example if you have stopped playing back a recording for any reason all you have to do is press the play key twice and the last recording being played will be resumed.

You can also bookmark a location or locations in a recording for rapid access to that location.

Just pause playback and press red.

To access them hold down fast forward or rewind or select "viewer bookmark" when you start playing the recording.

Dual record. This works best if you leave the unit in standby so both tuners can be used as required.

If one recording is more important than another to you and you fear a clash press blue in the Sky+ planner to give it the keep status (higher priority flag).

When watching playback of anything press help to turn on subtitles or audio description (if available).

Press text for digital teletext.

Copy to DVD/Tape
In Sky+ planner select items to copy in order required by pressing red button and then select.
Note process will be stopped if any sky key is pressed e.g. fast forward.

After you get used to the Sky+ interface and forget the complex Tivo user interface you may find that some tasks are actually easier and faster to use compared with Tivo.

Automan.


----------



## OzSat

But at least TiVo records the whole of 'Paul Mertons Silent Comedy' - and not just the second half.


----------



## Fozzie

Automan said:


> You can also bookmark a location or locations in a recording for rapid access to that location.
> 
> Just pause playback and press red.
> 
> To access them hold down fast forward or rewind or select "viewer bookmark" when you start playing the recording.


Not forgetting that pause then green brings up the list of bookmarks for that recording.


----------



## cyril

Automan said:


> After you get used to the Sky+ interface and forget the complex Tivo user interface you may find that some tasks are actually easier and faster to use compared with Tivo.
> 
> Automan.


Four or 5 neat Sky+ features don't make up for about 100 yucky ones or another 300 that simply aren't there though!

It's a good thing that the picture quality is so fab otherwise I would be demanding my money back from Sky straight away!

If I only had a small 50 inch screen or smaller I probably would stick with TiVo. 

The Fuji P63 is SO AWESOME


----------



## chimaera

My main issue is with the spectacularly bad EPG layout, where you can't easily find anything. Also (and I know TiVo didn't do this either) with my Thomson Freeview PVR I've got used to being able to carry on watching something in a small window while using the EPG, and being able to change the format of the EPG while using it, in a few useful ways. And going to a specific date, maybe you can do that but I haven't found out how. And it's only a 7 day EPG, which is inadequate. If I understand how it works correctly, I'm guessing that if you have a series link for a programme which is normally on every week, then it skips a week for some reason, the series link is broken. And it costs £10 a month for something which must have taken only days to write, and hasn't been developed further in six years. Don't you just love monopolies.


----------



## Automan

The Sky EPG is primitive and has not really changed since the launch of Sky Digital.

I thought when Sky+ came along several years ago it would use a new advanced EPG containing a lot more data and thus would permit more advanced features.

It did not, they just bodged it on to the original EPG 

Now with have HD and again they have just bodged it on to the orignal epg which I suppose now must be ten years old.

Still, you never know as every Sky HD box has 140Gb of hard drive space doing absolutely nothing perhaps they will come up with a new EPG which caches it to the disk and maybe updates via your Sky broadband account - No, just dreaming 

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Don't forget the BBC are transmitting the above event this morning live in HD.

Not my "cup of tea" but as in HD will record and check for quality.

Automan.


----------



## chimaera

There's no way in a million years Sky are gettiing their greedy hands on my DSL account. If they really want to try to sell me stuff via broadband, they are going to have to allow it to work with any ISP.


----------



## sanderton

Automan said:


> After you get used to the Sky+ interface and forget the complex Tivo user interface you may find that some tasks are actually easier and faster to use compared with Tivo.
> .


Really? Name one!


----------



## GarySargent

Automan I'm convinced you are really Rupert Murdoch! Seriously are you really saying Sky+ has a better interface than TiVo? It is horrendous, absolutely unuseable compared to TiVo. Functionally it is like a kids toy.

Having 1 million users doesn't make something good!


----------



## kitschcamp

Automan said:


> Still, you never know as every Sky HD box has 140Gb of hard drive space doing absolutely nothing perhaps they will come up with a new EPG which caches it to the disk and maybe updates via your Sky broadband account - No, just dreaming


'fraid you are; time and time again Sky have said they want the EPG to be the same across every box and product to make it easier for staff training and support.


----------



## Automan

Just watching "Trouping The Colour" - picture quality pretty good but a bit boring.

While this is on I can use the up/down left/right and blue keys to see what else is on (title only) and if I want I can just press select to view now or record.

If I was using Tivo to view the same recording I would have to completely interupt it by pressing livetv to view the onscreen guide which of course is a lot more detailed but slower to navigate which the vast amount of Sky channels.

When you have then found something you want to record if you do not have a modified Tivo with endpad or equivalent you then have to select options to add some padding time.

After all of this to get back to trouping the colour you have to press play from Tivo "now playing".

I have also thought the Tivo interface gave the average TV viewer to many options and thus perhaps would scare people off.

Tivo is VERY powerful but most members of "Joe Public" are used to not much more than an ordinary VCR can do.

Indeed, Sky+ and now Sky+ HD is not very much removed from a VCR without tapes.

Earlier when I suggested the box could update program data by Skybroadband I was just kiddind and would have hoped any dsl provider would be okay if you have home networking.

Of course at this moment in time Sky are trying to buy AOL UK 

Automan.


sanderton said:


> Really? Name one!


----------



## chimaera

Automan said:


> The Sky+ interface is a bit primitive but is now of course in over a million homes in the UK.
> 
> It does have a few shortcuts which you may have not noticed yet...
> 
> For example if you have stopped playing back a recording for any reason all you have to do is press the play key twice and the last recording being played will be resumed.
> 
> You can also bookmark a location or locations in a recording for rapid access to that location.
> 
> Just pause playback and press red.
> 
> To access them hold down fast forward or rewind or select "viewer bookmark" when you start playing the recording.
> 
> Dual record. This works best if you leave the unit in standby so both tuners can be used as required.
> 
> If one recording is more important than another to you and you fear a clash press blue in the Sky+ planner to give it the keep status (higher priority flag).
> 
> When watching playback of anything press help to turn on subtitles or audio description (if available).
> 
> Press text for digital teletext.
> 
> Copy to DVD/Tape
> In Sky+ planner select items to copy in order required by pressing red button and then select.
> Note process will be stopped if any sky key is pressed e.g. fast forward.
> 
> After you get used to the Sky+ interface and forget the complex Tivo user interface you may find that some tasks are actually easier and faster to use compared with Tivo.
> 
> Automan.


OK, but my Freeview PVR (Thomson DHD4000) does all this and more, with no sub. In addition, as well as thumbnail navigation, it has real skip forward and back buttons to make use of the bookmark feature (and it has 30 second skip forward and backward too). In terms of usability, it's not TiVo, but it's way better than Sky+.


----------



## sanderton

Automan said:


> Just watching "Trouping The Colour" - picture quality pretty good but a bit boring.
> 
> While this is on I can use the up/down left/right and blue keys to see what else is on (title only) and if I want I can just press select to view now or record.
> 
> If I was using Tivo to view the same recording I would have to completely interupt it by pressing livetv to view the onscreen guide which of course is a lot more detailed but slower to navigate which the vast amount of Sky channels.
> 
> When you have then found something you want to record if you do not have a modified Tivo with endpad or equivalent you then have to select options to add some padding time.
> 
> After all of this to get back to trouping the colour you have to press play from Tivo "now playing".


My understanding is that there are several circumstances where you can't get the now-and-next banner up with Sky+, it depends on which tuners are in use. Certainly you can't if you're timeslipping. Pressing Live TV on the TiVo doesn't completly interrupt at all - the screen is shown on top of the picture. And selecting a program to record is a matter of highlighting it and pressing Select.

You'll have to do better than that!

(MCE's approach is IMHO superior to both - if you go to the Guide the show you are watching shrinks to a picture-in-picture view)


----------



## cyril

GarySargent said:


> Great - now seems like Sky HD boxes are frying TV's when hooked up through HDMI! Time to switch to component....
> 
> http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355974


Luckily, the alleged superior build quality,testing,electronics tolerance etc. of Fujitsu suggests my 51 series is OK.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336251&page=15

Gary you should have bought a Fujitsu 51 or 58 series


----------



## cyril

sanderton said:


> My understanding is that there are several circumstances where you can't get the now-and-next banner up with Sky+, it depends on which tuners are in use. Certainly you can't if you're timeslipping. Pressing Live TV on the TiVo doesn't completly interrupt at all - the screen is shown on top of the picture. And selecting a program to record is a matter of highlighting it and pressing Select.
> 
> You'll have to do better than that!
> 
> (MCE's approach is IMHO superior to both - if you go to the Guide the show you are watching shrinks to a picture-in-picture view)


sky plus drives me nuts - I frequently get the ' searching for listings' message, followed by a couple of minutes wait in which I can do NOTHING, followed by 'listings unavailable' !

This is just so crud!

I agree that the MCE interface is nicer than both, though I wish every font and picture size/aspect could be user adjustable.

The Vista interface looks even better!
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359274


----------



## Automan

Sounds to me as if you have a problem with your box or installation of dish / wiring.

Do you get good signal quality and lock okay indications?

This information is under Services, 4 system setup, 6 signal test.
Signal quality is normaly 75%+ and both inputs should say OK against lock indicator.

Also of course just a mains power cycle to Sky HD may help but wait 2 minutes after you apply mains power before pressing Sky key to let it build the channels lists etc.

Automan.



cyril said:


> sky plus drives me nuts - I frequently get the ' searching for listings' message, followed by a couple of minutes wait in which I can do NOTHING, followed by 'listings unavailable' !
> 
> This is just so crud!
> 
> I agree that the MCE interface is nicer than both, though I wish every font and picture size/aspect could be user adjustable.


----------



## Automan

The search and scan / ability to mark a program to be recorded works when time slipping and during dual record.

The Sky+ interface does have a lot to be desired but for the average TV viewer/user I suspect it meets their needs.

Only users of smarter systems e.g. Tivo know that so much more is possible.

However, we are still a very small minority 

Automan.


sanderton said:


> My understanding is that there are several circumstances where you can't get the now-and-next banner up with Sky+, it depends on which tuners are in use. Certainly you can't if you're timeslipping. Pressing Live TV on the TiVo doesn't completly interrupt at all - the screen is shown on top of the picture. And selecting a program to record is a matter of highlighting it and pressing Select.
> 
> You'll have to do better than that!
> 
> (MCE's approach is IMHO superior to both - if you go to the Guide the show you are watching shrinks to a picture-in-picture view)


----------



## GarySargent

Following a tip in another forum I can now manage to get 30x FF reliably on my SkyHD box. You have to press the FF key as quickly as possible 4 times (roughly within a second). Makes zipping through adverts a bit better, but I still miss TiVo's jump back - you always shoot straight past the start of the programme without.


----------



## poissony

Don't TiVo have some sort of patent on the jump back? I believe Windows Media Centre Edition usd to have this feature but it was withdrawn and it was rumoured it was because Microsoft didn't want to get sued.

When using MCE it's the one thing I can't get to grips with, I always overshoot usually be a large amount so I've given up FF and jump ahead in 30 seconds instead. 

No 30 second jump on SkyHD?


----------



## Automan

My box just froze its picture and switched itself off 
I was watching the last episode of Bones which played back again with no error but it was making two HD recordings one now says failed and the other has lost it start.

None of my Sky+ boxes ever did this other than when installing a new software version.

P.S. Gary, thanks for the 30x tip which seems to work well 

I used to have my Pronto set to give me 30x with one press of a button and the play key sending play, rewind, pause then play to rewind a bit pass the overchute.

Automan.


----------



## sanderton

poissony said:


> Don't TiVo have some sort of patent on the jump back? I believe Windows Media Centre Edition usd to have this feature but it was withdrawn and it was rumoured it was because Microsoft didn't want to get sued.
> 
> When using MCE it's the one thing I can't get to grips with, I always overshoot usually be a large amount so I've given up FF and jump ahead in 30 seconds instead.
> 
> No 30 second jump on SkyHD?


No jump back and no 30 second skip.

Good job that all that's worth watching in HD is the BBC, movies and live sport so no ads. TiVo and Media Centre for everything else!


----------



## Automan

I did not realise till today that Sky Channel 311 shows their own HD promo which I assume is for in store use and of course for trying out new Sky HD installs.

Already more Sky HD boxes installed in UK than total Tivo boxes ever sold in UK!

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

There are more TV's sold that TiVo boxes too, what's your point?!


----------



## chimaera

Automan said:


> Already more Sky HD boxes installed in UK than total Tivo boxes ever sold in UK!


All that demonstrates is that it's a different market now than it was six years ago, driven primarily by content, which Sky have got sewn up thanks to the monopoly position they engineered for themselves.

If TiVo were launching an HD capable DSAT box right now with twin tuners in the UK, and Sky hadn't made sure that no other manufacturer would be able to make a machine which could receive their encrypted channels and compete with them, don't you think it might be different?

Any manufacturer could compete on a technical basis with Sky+ software, particularly the presentation of the EPG which is a joke. Or a nightmare, since we're stuck with it for recording HD for the foreseeable future. Just because it sells well, doesn't mean it's any good. In this case, it just means Sky are successfully exploiting their market position.


----------



## 6022tivo

There is now a way of using a Dragon Software Cam to decrypt Sky channels. 
Some people use a Dreambox (linus) box to record/capture Sky and watch it later. The only Sky equipment required is a valid subscribed card.


----------



## Automan

At http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showpost.php?p=9083716&postcount=342 A posting which claims to come from Sky explains what they are doing to make our boxes better.

My box was on chn 998 and seems to be keeping its transport stream and has the correct time 

I BTW have the 605270A version.

Automan.


----------



## GarySargent

Yes and it isn't bloody much is it?!

I've had my box a month and they must have known about these issues before then. It shouldn't take this long to fix such obvious bugs - they are hardly obscure cases as far as software is concerned - very easily repeatable.

No mention of the dolby digital issues or the HDMI frying your TV issues!


----------



## Automan

Would you not say that if it does fry some HDMI connections that Thomson would mainly be to blame? Or I suppose maybe the makers of the effected TV's

Hmmm, That reminds me of the Thomson Tivo teletext bug/problem 

It is also the 1st generation gadget in the UK to make real use of HDMI other than a couple of upscalling DVD players.

Automan.


----------



## chimaera

I've had a couple of occasions when the HDCP error message and blue screen have come up in the middle of watching something. Power cycling the HD box doesn't fix it, nor the HDMI switch, nor the TV, nor all three at once. What does fix it though is just switching on the (HDMI) DVD player and switching it off again. Presumably this causes the TV to do something since it has to talk to a different device, and then it happily talks to the HD box again after that.


----------



## cyril

Automan said:


> Sounds to me as if you have a problem with your box or installation of dish / wiring.
> 
> Do you get good signal quality and lock okay indications?
> 
> This information is under Services, 4 system setup, 6 signal test.
> Signal quality is normaly 75%+ and both inputs should say OK against lock indicator.
> 
> Also of course just a mains power cycle to Sky HD may help but wait 2 minutes after you apply mains power before pressing Sky key to let it build the channels lists etc.
> 
> Automan.


65% to70% and all OK, though the % is not shown -only grey bars.

Apparently the 'Searching for listings' is a known bug, and the next update will improve it.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360328

Box blanked out again yesterday 

I now need a hack to type in the PIN when recording movies before 5pm.


----------



## sanderton

The PIN is only on Movies 9/10 that early isn't it? And you would be recording those in HD not on TiVo.


----------



## Automan

I think a planned future update removes the "pre watershed pin" problem for those with no kids about.

Amstrad Sky+ boxes already have this "new" feature.

Of course just like the red dot they claimed everybody wanted pin protection.

Automan.


----------



## Automan

Thursdays upgrade may well have fixed this problem on your box.

Automan.


cyril said:


> 65% to70% and all OK, though the % is not shown -only grey bars.
> 
> Apparently the 'Searching for listings' is a known bug, and the next update will improve it.
> 
> http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360328
> 
> Box blanked out again yesterday
> 
> I now need a hack to type in the PIN when recording movies before 5pm.


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## poissony

According to digiguide, the BBC are showing the following (after the WC and Wimbledon finish):

10th July
Blue Planet 
Deep Blue 
11th July
Planet Earth and Hannibal
12th July
Planet Earth and Pride
13th and 14th July
Planet Earth and Supervolcano


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## Automan

I see Sky have quite a few movies coming up in HD.
Most, if not all have already been shown in SD

Examples of some movies on in the next few weeks in *HD*...
Who's Harry Crumb?
Grease
Big Top Pee-Wee
Flatliners
Bugsy
Flight Of The Phoenix (2006)
Gothika
The Clearing
The Aviator
Starsky & Hutch
Our House
The Merchant of Venice (2006)
Speed
Scary Movie 3
A Walk IN The Cluds
Shrek 2
King Arthur
Kill Bill 1 & 2
The Lord Of The Rings : The Return Of The King
Spider Man II
Master & Commander: The Far Side Of The World
Independance Day
The Day After Tomorrow
Shark Tale
Blade: Trinity
Hellboy
I, Robot
Die Hard With A Vengeance
Alien vs Predator
The Terminal
Alfie
Sky Captain & The World Of Tomorrow

Automan.


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## cyril

Automan said:


> Thursdays upgrade may well have fixed this problem on your box.
> 
> Automan.


Well it seems better - still a bit of a wait occasionally.

However Spiderman 2 failed to record, claiming a power cut, when this wasn't true as my TiVo managed to record it.

I'm using TiVo to record all HD stuff due to disk space and reliability problems with Sky HD.


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## chimaera

It's surprising how you watch things in HD that you wouldn't otherwise have watched. I'm finding womens tennis quite appealing at the moment for example


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## Automan

It seems some Pioneer TV's are having problems with Sky HD via HDMI
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showpost.php?p=9257128&postcount=44

Also in the next few days it should be possible to book a recording on your Sky HD box via mobile phone or the world wide web.

Automan.


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## 6022tivo

Automan said:


> Also in the next few days it should be possible to book a recording on your Sky HD box via mobile phone or the world wide web.
> 
> Automan.


Ohhh Progress. And at a cost.. And no doubt when you get home, it will be missing with the error canceled "Power Cut" or "Unknown".. Or someother loads of rubbish..


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## chimaera

Automan said:


> Also in the next few days it should be possible to book a recording on your Sky HD box via mobile phone or the world wide web.


Via text message doesn't look like a runner, because the formatting of the words, date, time, etc has to be exact. I'm curious to see the web version. I hope it's not as bad as the EPG.


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## Automan

Possible...
I don't think these Thomson boxes are as stable as the Pace badged Sky+ units.

These Thomson boxes seem to have basic bugs that were removed from Pace Sky+ boxes years ago.

Still no Nicam bug - So far 

Automan.


6022tivo said:


> Ohhh Progress. And at a cost.. And no doubt when you get home, it will be missing with the error canceled "Power Cut" or "Unknown".. Or someother loads of rubbish..


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## chimaera

Automan said:


> Possible...
> I don't think these Thomson boxes are as stable as the Pace badged Sky+ units.


No missed recordings yet for me, and I haven't had to power cycle it at all. Apart from the sluggish ffwd and rewind and the dire EPG, it's been faultless.


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## sanderton

Mine's locked up a couple of times.


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## cwaring

chimaera said:


> Apart from the sluggish ffwd and rewind and the dire EPG...


Nice to know that Sky+HD and TW TVDrive share something in common


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## scgf

Hmmm. I had my Sky HD install on Wednesday. I am blown away by the HD picture quality on my Hitachi 42PMA400E monitor via the component inputs. I am *very* unhappy, however, with the awful picture quality of everything else. Previously I had TiVo connected to Freeview and things looked very much better.

While flicking through the channels this evening, Channel 5 was showing Home & Away and the picture was actually quite good, so I know that the HD box can output decent quality SD pictures and it is not that I am getting used to HD. Bleak House looked good on one of the BBC channels too. 

I might have to resurrect my Aldi Freeview PVR for SD channels - not sure I can stand this Sky 'quality'!


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## cwaring

scgf said:


> While flicking through the channels this evening, Channel 5 was showing Home & Away and the picture was actually quite good, so I know that the HD box can output decent quality SD pictures and it is not that I am getting used to HD.


Interestingly, H&A is filmed in HD but I'm sure that five won't be showing that version


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## Automan

Quality of picture does vary from channel to channel depending upon how much bandwith they have bought from SES.

Also of course even on good channels e.g. BBC2 the picture can be crap e.g. The Bridge at Remagen.

Automan.



scgf said:


> Hmmm. I had my Sky HD install on Wednesday. I am blown away by the HD picture quality on my Hitachi 42PMA400E monitor via the component inputs. I am *very* unhappy, however, with the awful picture quality of everything else. Previously I had TiVo connected to Freeview and things looked very much better.
> 
> While flicking through the channels this evening, Channel 5 was showing Home & Away and the picture was actually quite good, so I know that the HD box can output decent quality SD pictures and it is not that I am getting used to HD. Bleak House looked good on one of the BBC channels too.
> 
> I might have to resurrect my Aldi Freeview PVR for SD channels - not sure I can stand this Sky 'quality'!


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## Automan

My one seemed to okay with the changes of times of Sherlock Holmes and I also assume Doctor Who must have re-timed but recording was not effected.

Interesting to hear from anyone who set their box to record the England - Portugal/Manchester United match to know if it recorded the extended even (ended 19:30 when Tennis started).

Automan.


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## scgf

I didn't record either on my Sky HD box.

Today I did a few tests. Firstly I connected the SCART socket from the Sky HD box to my plasma monitor. There was very little difference between that and the component out.

Then I connected my Aldi PVR Freeview box - I plugged the Scart output into an RGB/Component converter and then did an AB comparison between Freeview and Sky on every channel that both platforms carry.

In every case there was greater definition and sharpness on the Freeview box. More detail was visible on Freeview. On Sky SD it is as if everything is slightly out of focus.

I really am not sure what to do. HD picture quality is superb, but SD is pretty dire. I've moved from paying just £10 a month for TiVo/Freeview to over £40 for Sky HD with inferior picture quality on most channels.

I am hoping that a future system up grade will sort out the problem.

TiVo is still chugging away in my bedroom so all is not lost....


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## Automan

How is the Sky HD SD picture if you use it with your RGB/Component converter?

Also, is your Sky HD box set to Auto or 1080i for its HD ouput mode?
I must admit to not being sure if this setting effects component output as I only use RGB scart and HDMI.

Automan.


scgf said:


> I didn't record either on my Sky HD box.
> 
> Today I did a few tests. Firstly I connected the SCART socket from the Sky HD box to my plasma monitor. There was very little difference between that and the component out.
> 
> Then I connected my Aldi PVR Freeview box - I plugged the Scart output into an RGB/Component converter and then did an AB comparison between Freeview and Sky on every channel that both platforms carry.
> 
> In every case there was greater definition and sharpness on the Freeview box. More detail was visible on Freeview. On Sky SD it is as if everything is slightly out of focus.
> 
> I really am not sure what to do. HD picture quality is superb, but SD is pretty dire. I've moved from paying just £10 a month for TiVo/Freeview to over £40 for Sky HD with inferior picture quality on most channels.
> 
> I am hoping that a future system up grade will sort out the problem.
> 
> TiVo is still chugging away in my bedroom so all is not lost....


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## scgf

> How is the Sky HD SD picture if you use it with your RGB/Component converter?


That's what I did when I tried the SCART output on the Sky boy.

I should have learned my lesson - after I had my TiVo for a while I moved to Sky+ then regretted it because the picture quality was so bad. I went back with TiVo and Freeview for a couple of years.

I have tried my Sky box on 1080 and Auto - auto is very slightly better and allows me to adjust the screen format for 4:3 broadcasts.

I suppose I could make my Freeview PVR a permanent addition to my setup and watch SD on that - trouble is my component switchbox has only three inputs, taken up with Sky, DVD and Satellite box. I am also going to need another RGB/Component converter. Hmmm. More money!

Thanks for your comments, Automan.


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## sanderton

I'm not clear from your posts if you've compared the RGB SCART on Freeview with the RGB SCART of the SkyHD box - no converters or anything?

ITV in particular is significantly worse on Sky then on Freeview. That's because it's transmitted at a lower resoloution as well as a lower bitrate.

For most channels however there shouldn't be any significant difference between "raw" Freeview and Sky.

For most channels, Sky should be better than Tivoed Freeview.


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## cyril

Automan said:


> Interesting to hear from anyone who set their box to record the England - Portugal/Manchester United match to know if it recorded the extended even (ended 19:30 when Tennis started).
> 
> Automan.


No - didnt get the overrun from the England match.
Have also had a couple of failed recordings and missed a few endings of Wimbledon on BBC HD since the last 'model' software update.

As much as I hate the Sky HD's vastly inferior EPG,interface and reliability it has become increasingly difficult to watch SD on my P63 ( I also have HD-DVD), so I have ordered a second Sky HD box and will upgrade to two 750GB drives.

If I had a much smaller (50 inch or less  ) screen I would probably stick with TiVo and MCE only.

I use freeview/TiVo/MCE to watch SD as Sky SD is bad on a lot of channels e.g. ITV, but for some reason C5 is good on Sky.


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## OzSat

Automan said:


> My one seemed to okay with the changes of times of Sherlock Holmes and I also assume Doctor Who must have re-timed but recording was not effected.
> 
> Interesting to hear from anyone who set their box to record the England - Portugal/Manchester United match to know if it recorded the extended even (ended 19:30 when Tennis started).
> 
> Automan.


Doctor Who started on time 7pm - they moved the news from before to after Doctor Who.

My SkyHD was recording England v Portugal on BBC HD - it recorded over the expected finish time - but even though the EPG updated it cut off before the end.


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## Automan

So it would seem no improvements on how Sky+ handles late EPG changes.

It seems if the start time changes it will start at the new value but does not dynamically extend the length of a recording.

Also it seems to fail to cope with padding with late epg changes and thus I did not get the end of Bridge of Remagen which finished a copule of minutes late.

Movie was of such poor picture quality it was not worth watching.

Automan.


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## GarySargent

Just noticed two entries in my planner which say "Failed - Power Cut".

Thing is, neither of them have even been on yet! They were future series link recordings. One being Lost on E4 at 11pm tonight. Is my box now predicting I'm going to have a power cut?!

Had to delete and re-add them. Most odd. Good job I still have TiVo for reliable recordings.


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## mjk

So Gary, did you have the predicted power cut?

Now if only you can get it to record tomorrow's lottery draw ahead of time ......


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## Automan

Planet Earth and Deep Blue are on tonight with more episodes later in the week.

Setup your series links 

Bleak House is also on again at the weekend

Enjoy in HD

I also see it is possible to have entries in the Sky+ HD planner to make recordings at the end of July.

These were entered via the new Set Reminder option.

Automan.


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## Bakdraft

It sure isn't easy to make sense of Sky Bills...

I have just received a crazy summary bill from Sky... having had a previous letter (26th June) that said due to billing problems, they were going to give me another free months sky HD ( meaning 3 months since they already gave me 2 months due to be ing cancelled) by my reconing since I didn't get Sky HD until 2nd June, I am not due to be charged until 2nd August alowing for paying 1 month in advance...

Well no... they want to charge me from the 2nd June... "let'sjust forget all that free stuff we wrote and told you about plus by the way we have put up the fees .. thought we would let you know about that one after your 30 day cancellation period!"  

It seems they don't even bother to read what they send out!!

It makes my £200 lifetime fee from Tivo look like a godsend.


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## OzSat

I've not had a bill (interactively or by post) for six weeks now - but did get the £10 compensation letter due to their problems.


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## Bakdraft

Having been through the bill.... it is sort of correct but not clearly explained at all!

It seems that the £20 credit / compensation for my cancelling is not really £20 credit... more like £20 less 2 weeks worth of Sky HD that I never actually had! i.e. £15!

The statement " Let's confirm what you'll be paying" is a good idea if they clearly did explain it.


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## chimaera

I don't understand my bill at all. It's £90 this month, £57 next month and £47 thereafter. I don't really know why next month is more than the normal monthly payment, or what happened to the £20 credit, or the one month free HD which they mentioned in a letter, which seems to have evaporated.

I have however found an even less competent company than Sky - BT. After I switched to 8Mbps DSL I apparently migrated from BT Yahoo to BT Broadband, not that this was ever mentioned at the time. A consequence of this, which was also not mentioned, was that ADSL subscriptions would now appear on the regular phone bill. Except they didn't, until this month when I suddenly got an extra £90 charge because it was backdated to April. The only problem was that the existing £29.99 direct debit was still being taken as well during that period. After 30 minutes on the phone, and two different numbers, all that happened was that they started a 'double billing enquiry' on my behalf which apparently takes 10 working days to complete. After that, I was assured that they would probably refund the £90 they owe me. How ridiculous.


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## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> Great - now seems like Sky HD boxes are frying TV's when hooked up through HDMI! Time to switch to component....
> 
> http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355974


As it is only Pioneer tv's which have this problem - and Pioneer have now said the will repeat all affected tvs (even if out of warranty) - I would say it is a Pioneer problem.

Pioneer GB Ltd's warranty support statement re HDCP


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## GarySargent

Other devices such as amps and scalars have also been affected, and Pioneer have said they will only repair TV's until the exact cause has been determined (likely to be SkyHD since all other HDMI equipment works just fine with the Pioneers).


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## OzSat

GarySargent said:


> Other devices such as amps and scalars have also been affected, and Pioneer have said they will only repair TV's until the exact cause has been determined (likely to be SkyHD since all other HDMI equipment works just fine with the Pioneers).


And all other makes of TV work just fine.

There will always be the odd failure - but no other make has a high rate of failure with SkyHD.


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## Automan

Now we have quite a choice of programs to record what really sucks is the 160Gb of space for recordings.

A single recording of two hours on the BBC HD service can use 14% of free space.

I suppose I will have to upgrade to 750Gb as per Cyril.

Now back to Alien vs Predator in HD and 5.1 sound - Only 5% space used 

Automan.


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## Automan

Seems a 500Gb drive can just be slotted in but the 750Gb must be setup first using the beta version of Copy+ (1st designed for Sky+)

The 750Gb are reported also to be quite noisy 

Links

750Gb Drive http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/prod...hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=110736
500Gb Drive http://www.dabs.com/productview.asp...&SearchKey=All&SearchMode=All&NavigationKey=0
Copy+ Software http://copyplus.artisswebdesign.co.uk

Automan.


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## Fozzie

Just trying to decide myself, which drive (make, model, size) to go for


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## Automan

This afternoon I noted by box had not a single item left in the planner to record.
Tried a restart and one came back.

Later a couple more appeared but not all 

I went for a total clean start.

Never had this happen with my two Pace Sky+ boxes EVER!

Automan.


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## kitschcamp

Sky+ has never been reliable. Ever. I was incredibly glad when my 12 month sentance was over and I could use a TiVo and DVD HD recorder side by side on two boxes which was far more reliable than Sky+ ever was.


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## OzSat

Automan said:


> This afternoon I noted by box had not a single item left in the planner to record.
> Tried a restart and one came back.
> 
> Later a couple more appeared but not all
> 
> I went for a total clean start.
> 
> Never had this happen with my two Pace Sky+ boxes EVER!
> 
> Automan.


Not had any Sky+ issues on HD box that I didn't have on my original Sky+ box.

Both have a habit of starting series links for programmes I don't watch - and ending series links for those I do.


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