# Is a TiVO with Tru2way still in the works?



## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

Is tru2way technology ever gonna see the light of day? From what I have read online, my impression is that this technology has pretty much stalled. I was hoping to maybe see a consumer based TiVo that would support Tru2way of some kind so it could then also receive full On-Demand and PPV channels, but it looks like it isn't happening any time soon. 

I see how you can get TiVo branded boxes from certain cable companies that then support On-Demand and PPV, but then they are stripped of other key features that I like TiVo for (no Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, etc.). Pointless if you ask me. 

I was hoping there would maybe someday be a box you could simply pick up at a local retailer (like Best Buy) and get it ALL. Doesn't look like its gonna happen though. I guess that would make too much sense and threaten the cable company's overall bottom line. 

Probably another reason I see that these new TiVo Elites don't support a regular antenna like past models. More and more people have been dumping cable in favor of a straight OTA setup. Cable companies saw this as a serious potential threat to their business model and I think deamnded TiVo to remove that feature or they wouldn't play nice.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Tru2Way is dead. The FCC is currently in the early stages of accepting comments on a next generation solution generally referred to as "Allvid" which would be an gateway box that would turn everything into standards based video over IP.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Which was supposed to have been implemented this year, and so far all intents and purposes is equally as dead until the FCC gets serious about it.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

buscuitboy said:


> Is tru2way technology ever gonna see the light of day? From what I have read online, my impression is that this technology has pretty much stalled. I was hoping to maybe see a consumer based TiVo that would support Tru2way of some kind so it could then also receive full On-Demand and PPV channels, but it looks like it isn't happening any time soon.


Doubtful. As you said tru2way has pretty much stalled everywhere. Also, there were some discussions as to whether or not they would even be able to use their own UI as part of the tru2way spec set up by the cable companies was meant to allow the cable company to control the UI on any tru2way box. There was some back and forth about whether or not Tivo would be able to put the tru2way portions into a little applet like section (would allow access to VOD through cable's interface but their own for regular TV). All of this was rumors. In reality tru2way was really only an advantage for the cable company as they were the ones designing it. I think what needs to be done is an IP upstream method for 3rd party boxes to talk to the headend for SDV and VOD requests. tru2way is an overly complex method for providing that service.



buscuitboy said:


> I see how you can get TiVo branded boxes from certain cable companies that then support On-Demand and PPV, but then they are stripped of other key features that I like TiVo for (no Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, etc.). Pointless if you ask me.
> 
> I was hoping there would maybe someday be a box you could simply pick up at a local retailer (like Best Buy) and get it ALL. Doesn't look like its gonna happen though. I guess that would make too much sense and threaten the cable company's overall bottom line.


This issue is generally a result of content licensing. Netflix/Hulu/Amazon are not allowed (by their own content licenses) to be on a cable company box. It is not really the choice of any of the companies involved except the content providers.



buscuitboy said:


> Probably another reason I see that these new TiVo Elites don't support a regular antenna like past models. More and more people have been dumping cable in favor of a straight OTA setup. Cable companies saw this as a serious potential threat to their business model and I think deamnded TiVo to remove that feature or they wouldn't play nice.


The Elites do not support OTA because of cost. Basically the chipsets available support up to 4 tuners. The Elite has 4 QAM tuners. It would cost extra to allow it to also pick up ATSC.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

nrc said:


> Tru2Way is dead. The FCC is currently in the early stages of accepting comments on a next generation solution generally referred to as "Allvid" which would be an gateway box that would turn everything into standards based video over IP.


Like tru2way, AllVid appears to be dead. If it was going to happen, we would've heard about it already. Everyone I've talked to in the industry seems to agree that the FCC has already stopped working on it. No word on if they've moved on to something else, though? One thing is for sure, the FCC has to be keep trying or Congress has to re-write section 629 of the Telecom Act of 1996.


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## Brad Bishop (Sep 11, 2001)

This is all so silly.

TiVo has ethernet. Let it establish a secure connection to the cable's node for handling SDV. It'd be so much better than all of these other alternatives. It could work for everyone today.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

nrc said:


> Tru2Way is dead. The FCC is currently in the early stages of accepting comments on a next generation solution generally referred to as "Allvid" which would be an gateway box that would turn everything into standards based video over IP.


The MSOs use it. It's just dead for retail. And as Ben says, AllVid is most likely dead too. Of course there will one day be a successor but it'll probably be something simpler than AllVid like an IP backchannel and instead of a physical CableCARD we'll go to digital certificates for authentication.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Isn't/wasn't AllVid basically a superset of Tru2Way?


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## NGeorge (Feb 27, 2004)

So what I don't understand is that if they cable co. Tivos (e.g. from RCN) are able to do On Demand through a software download, why can't a retail version? 

As in, when you enter your zip code and provider, you download the software the allows you to access RCN's On Demand as well as Amazon/Netflix/Etc. if it's a retail box. 

Everyone says CableCards can't do On Demand... yet it seems like these units can do it. Is it a technology issue (where the retail units don't have the RCN software, or can't communicate both ways whereas the RCS units can), or is it just a political issue where the cable companies don't want to offer retail units access to the On Demand content because they have Netflix, Hulu etc. as well? 

SUPPOSEDLY Comcast is going to open up their On Demand to retail units at some point in the future... I can't wait. Especially since they pulled all the additional HD feeds of HBO and Showtime sans the main feeds because "It's all available On Demand in HD for no extra charge!"

--Nat


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

NGeorge said:


> Everyone says CableCards can't do On Demand... yet it seems like these units can do it. Is it a technology issue (where the retail units don't have the RCN software, or can't communicate both ways whereas the RCS units can), or is it just a political issue


I wouldn't say political, but I would say these TiVos offering or to offer on demand will have worked out business deals with those provides... as there is a technical, engineering component - it has to be built with the cablecos having to provide access and integration. It's using what we're calling an IP backchannel for communication and may be or have been specific to providers with SeaChange technology in play.


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

Well, in all honesty, the On_Demand feature is the ONLY reason I use my Comcast digital box. And I have no desire in PPV so there is really no other reason to use a cable company provided box anyway. The features of a TiVo (MRV, online scheduling, pyTivo, Netflix, Amazon & other network services FAR outweigh the ON_Demand/PPV feature.

The only other thing I wish TiVo boxes provided is some sort of caller ID. My parent's Brighthouse cable boxes have done this for years and I always thought this was kind of a cool feature. See who is calling while you are watching the rot box & decide whether to get up or not to get it.  I realize they got rid of the phone jack on TiVos so its not possible on newer units, but still wish they had it. No biggie as I have gotten along without it this long anyway.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I always hated the Caller ID feature. My DirecTV Toshiba HD STB I had in 2001 had it. I tried it and it was just too annoying having it pop up every time the phone would ring. It's always been easier for me to just look at the CID on the Phone. Which is usually nearby. Otherwise they can leave a message when the voicemail picks up.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bdraw said:


> Like tru2way, AllVid appears to be dead. If it was going to happen, we would've heard about it already. Everyone I've talked to in the industry seems to agree that the FCC has already stopped working on it. No word on if they've moved on to something else, though? One thing is for sure, the FCC has to be keep trying or Congress has to re-write section 629 of the Telecom Act of 1996.


Allvid appears to have stalled, but it's certainly nothing like Tru2way. Tru2way is not only merely dead but really most sincerely dead. Tru2way may be buried in some carriers' gear for some time to come, but for consumers it's dead and irrelevant.

With Allvid there are still ongoing discussions between the FCC and the various parties about whether Allvid is needed and how it might be implemented. Interestingly, it seems like TiVo may have sold out on the topic.

Back in September the Allvid Alliance (of which TiVo is a member) filed a pretty detailed proposal for rules which would implement Allvid using a set of existing DLNA standards with some extra topping for guide data.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6016842242

At the end of September the FCC held a workshop for a discussion of Allvid among members of the industry.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6016844028

After the workshop the Allvid Alliance submitted a filing saying that there is enough agreement to proceed with a notice of proposed rule making to hash out the sticking points.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6016844502

Comcast followed up with a filing saying "is not". Interestingly, they state:



> Two of the three Alliance member companies who participated in the Workshop  Best Buy and TiVo  were at best ambivalent in their remarks about the need for AllVid regulations, and indicated that things are moving in the right direction from their perspectives.


http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6016845786

I would have expected TiVo to correct them if that were not the case, but TiVo has not filed any comments in support Allvid since that time. So it would seem that TiVo has decided that they're comfortable enough with the current state of their cable relationships that they don't have to push so hard for more open interoperability. Particularly since something as widely supported as DLNA could potentially open a flood of new competitors for them.

Still, Allvid isn't dead. The Allvid Alliance and CEA keep nudging the FCC on the topic even though their inaction has led some to speculate that it has lost favor. Sooner or later the FCC will need to make a statement on the topic one way or the other. But right now nothing else is on the table. There has been no discussion of reviving any of the other technologies that have been proposed before, whether it's Tru2way <gak> or IP backchannel. If someone were pushing for a do-over on those they would have to file it publicly.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

AllVid is a fantastic idea and every consumer should pray that it sees the light of day. AllVid basically moves all tuning and authorization into a single gateway box and allows 3rd party devices to communicate with that gateway, and receive video streams from it, using standard IP protocols. By doing this they would open it up so that an AllVid based DVR or TV could access programming from ANY provider. So a single AllVid TiVo could record cable, satellite, U-Verse, FIOS, etc... As long as the provider has a gateway box using the AllVide spec then an AllVid TiVo could record form it. This would truly give consumers freedom of choice. Unlike now where a TiVo is single purpose (only works with cable or DirecTV) and can't be moved from one service to the other. 

AllVid would basically bring us back to the old S2 days when you could use a TiVo with any provider by simply hooking up the box/receiver to the analog input. Except that with AllVid the cable box would be capable of tuning 6 channels simultaneously, outputting the signal in pure digital format, and TiVo could communicate with it via IP instead of using IR blasters.

Like I said AllVid is a great idea and I really, really, hope it eventually gets mandated.

Dan


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

Cable monopolies will try thier hardest ($$$) to kill any of these. There isn't enough 3rd party (current cable card) devices out there in use to justify them putting any energy into it.

If the cable co's do decide to implement something it will probably be an extension of existing tuner adaptor. The down link is there.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, just like with the state of cable TV channels today (mostly crappy), we see that the lowest denominator always wins (cable DVRs). So there is little incentive to make any of the third-party stuff work like it should, because the masses don't care.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Obviously I've been wrong the whole time but all these years I've often thought there's an oppurtunity for cabe to save money. To me 2way cablecard would save them from buying millions of boxes to rent and they instead could pawn that cost to consumers if the cea actually had a reason to stick a slot on every TV.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> Obviously I've been wrong the whole time but all these years I've often thought there's an oppurtunity for cabe to save money. To me 2way cablecard would save them from buying millions of boxes to rent and they instead could pawn that cost to consumers if the cea actually had a reason to stick a slot on every TV.


You're assuming the cable boxes are loss leaders, but they're not. In the scheme of things the boxes are cheap and make back their costs several times over via rental fees. Also being in control of the UI allows them to steer you toward things like PPV, where they make even more money, and block 3rd party competition like Hulu, Netflix, etc... This is the main reason Tru2Way failed. They wanted the 3rd party devices to all be forced to use their UI, but companies like TiVo and Sony told them no way. They tried to compromise by saying they would use their UI when accessing VOD, but the cable companies insisted on an all or nothing approach so the whole thing fell apart.

Unfortunately they're going to apply the same arguments to AllVid too. An AllVid bridge would be capable of outputting 6 streams, which means they would lose money by not requiring a box for every TV and not being able to charge "outlet fees". Plus the bridge would not have a UI so there would be no way for them to steer you toward PPV and they'd have no control over competing offerings.

AllVid is very consumer friendly, but there is a lot about it the cable companies wont like which is why I fully expect them to fight it tooth and nail and do everything they can to squash it.

Dan


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, just like with the state of cable TV channels today (mostly crappy), we see that the lowest denominator always wins (cable DVRs). So there is little incentive to make any of the third-party stuff work like it should, because the masses don't care.


Yep, as in politics, there's no substitute for more intelligent and less apathetic "masses". 


Dan203 said:


> ........AllVid is very consumer friendly, but there is a lot about it the cable companies wont like which is why I fully expect them to fight it tooth and nail and do everything they can to squash it.


Yep, they will go kicking and screaming, just like they have with CableCARD and Tuning Adapters. Unless there is some way AllVid can succeed without the cable companies' friendly cooperation (which seems impossible) it is going to be a similar failure.

It is naive to think we (via the FCC) can force a complex technical system on businesses when it is against their interests, and expect good results.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> You're assuming the cable boxes are loss leaders, but they're not. In the scheme of things the boxes are cheap and make back their costs several times over via rental fees. Also being in control of the UI allows them to steer you toward things like PPV, where they make even more money, and block 3rd party competition like Hulu, Netflix, etc... This is the main reason Tru2Way failed. They wanted the 3rd party devices to all be forced to use their UI, but companies like TiVo and Sony told them no way. They tried to compromise by saying they would use their UI when accessing VOD, but the cable companies insisted on an all or nothing approach so the whole thing fell apart.
> 
> Unfortunately they're going to apply the same arguments to AllVid too. An AllVid bridge would be capable of outputting 6 streams, which means they would lose money by not requiring a box for every TV and not being able to charge "outlet fees". Plus the bridge would not have a UI so there would be no way for them to steer you toward PPV and they'd have no control over competing offerings.
> 
> ...


I'm under the impression that the FCC regulations make it ILLEGAL for the boxes to be a loss leader. (obviously could be wrong).

if they weren't so hostile they could have worked something out with the cea where everyone won. But they made it one-way cablecard so horrible that the CEA was hostile right back.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dlfl said:


> ...
> 
> It is naive to think we (via the FCC) can force a complex technical system on businesses when it is against their interests, and expect good results.


I'd agree it isn't easy but don't think it's a impossible.

The phone system comes to mind. RJ11 jacks and interoperability standards seemed to work pretty well for the consumers buying a plethors of phone devices over the years.

Consumer cable modems worked out somehow even through different generations of DOCSIS standards.

ATSC might not be perfect but it worked out as a decent basis for the first generation of HDTV across many devices and delivery methods.

Certainly the industries where involved in developing those things but in the end the government sort of made them the rule of the land.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> I'd agree it isn't easy but don't think it's a impossible.
> 
> The phone system comes to mind. RJ11 jacks and interoperability standards seemed to work pretty well for the consumers buying a plethors of phone devices over the years.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but all the examples you mention affected tens or even hundreds of millions of consumers. Thus there was tremendous political pressure on the industries to make them work. AllVid has to bootstrap up from zero users. If the cable cos can prevent it from getting significant market penetration, by dragging their feet so it doesn't work well for early adopters, I doubt enough political pressure will ever develop to overcome that. Certainly the pressure from less than a million users has not been sufficient to make them do right by CableCARDs and Tuning Adapters.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

None of those had a provider specific UI. Any UI could be on the consumer device. Two big catches for a cable device are access to their UI (or more importantly the customer be able to access that at least for interactive services), and conditional Access.

ATSC did not exist. I am not sure if DVB-T did when ATSC was developed and ratified.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, just like with the state of cable TV channels today (mostly crappy), we see that the lowest denominator always wins (cable DVRs). So there is little incentive to make any of the third-party stuff work like it should, because the masses don't care.


The lowest denominator always wins because that is what the vast majority of households can afford: FREE or heavily subsidized equipment, often multiple boxes or Whole Home solution. The masses just don't see the value of paying up front (even for under $100) AND $20 per month for the first Premiere, and they would need more boxes for the household with more upfront costs and more fees at the MSD. The problem is the masses just loose bladder control and bolt running away from the TiVo option looking at those numbers, even if it is the preferred DVR of the rich on this forum. Oh, and the MSO's will RMA failed units at NO CHARGE, often, or very little charge. If a Premiere HDD fails after the warranty, it looks like pricey TiVo exchange or Weeknees or the trash heap for all the investment made by the household in a Premiere.

This isn't beating up on TiVo, this is just the reason why TiVo hasn't captured the market of the masses: it is just too expensive for them, no matter how much they may really prefer a TiVo. There is a reason Tom Rogers is shedding the retail end of TiVo, and some of those reasons are above.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Series3Sub said:


> The lowest denominator always wins because that is what the vast majority of households can afford: FREE or heavily subsidized equipment, often multiple boxes or Whole Home solution. The masses just don't see the value of paying up front (even for under $100) AND $20 per month for the first Premiere, and they would need more boxes for the household with more upfront costs and more fees at the MSD. The problem is the masses just loose bladder control and bolt running away from the TiVo option looking at those numbers, even if it is the preferred DVR of the rich on this forum. Oh, and the MSO's will RMA failed units at NO CHARGE, often, or very little charge. If a Premiere HDD fails after the warranty, it looks like pricey TiVo exchange or Weeknees or the trash heap for all the investment made by the household in a Premiere.
> 
> This isn't beating up on TiVo, this is just the reason why TiVo hasn't captured the market of the masses: it is just too expensive for them, no matter how much they may really prefer a TiVo. There is a reason Tom Rogers is shedding the retail end of TiVo, and some of those reasons are above.


Your assertion that people (the masses) can not afford a $600 DVR is hogwash.

Like the masses haven't bought 10s of millions of ipads and smart phones or millions of other things that make $600 look like chump change.

The masses don't buy TiVos for 2 basic reasons (1) they don't "just work" like other consumer electronics or more simple put the hassle factor is to high, and (2) they don't have enough value to the masses to justify the purchase or TiVo's marketing hasn't been able to explain what the value is.

My personal opinion is that until the hassle factor can be addressed stand alone TiVos (or any stand alone DVR) will continue to be fringe products.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

The hassle factor is a lot lower with the new Cablecard rules, but Tivo has never addressed (2) because they've never had the money to spend on marketing to convince people that it's worth it.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

Not to mention, cable co's have done an outstanding job of replacing the TiVo moniker with DVR.

4-5 years ago, TiVo'd was a verb.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> The hassle factor is a lot lower with the new Cablecard rules, but Tivo has never addressed (2) because they've never had the money to spend on marketing to convince people that it's worth it.


That true except when the system does not work correctly and you don't know who has the problem TiVo or the cable co. I can solve those type of problems but friends of mine would never think of getting into the middle of such problems, they get a Cable co DVR and if something does not work the cable co comes to your door and will fix the problem without any additional cost or hassle. Cable co DVRs are good enough for most people now so that why IMHO TiVo is a niche product, and at retail will always be a niche product no matter how much marketing they do.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

And if AllVid ever sees the light of day, I'm sure we'll be complaining that that's not easy enough either (probably because the MVPDs will make it difficult).

You can't beat the monopoly.


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