# Homeland S2E02 "Beirut Is Back." OAD 2012/10/07 ***spoilers***



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Wow, wow, wow!

Color me as sucked in.

I was on the edge of my couch as Carrie was running from the gunshots.

I'm currently listening to to "No Easy Day" about the UBL(sic) kill. We gotta believe the writers did, too.

The Red One and Red Two scenario is pretty much how he describes it, although they didn't have different missions for the two teams. The SEALs do drop in with small teams and get out intact. They had instructions that it was not to be an assassination "if he's naked and unarmed."

BUT he does say that the briefing rooms are radio shielded faraday cages so even if you did smuggle in a phone or transmitter, it wouldn't work. So much for Brody's warning.

They also mirrored how the SEALs gathered all of the computers, notebooks CDs and thumb drives from UBL's house in what the CIA said was an intelligence bonanza.

Some WTFs: How did Carrie color her dyed brunett hair back to blonde so fast? That wasn't a wig, it was hair dye. Even a guy knows you have to die it back and you don't get the black roots and highlights from a bottle. Besides, didn't she enter the country as a brunette with that hair color and picture on her passport?

Why didn't Carrie's escort Major go with her?

She also should have covered ALL of her hair to go to the mosque. Notice that the other women had no hair showing.

Most importantly the end. Saul has the Brody confession. WTF: Why would it be with a Hesbollah guy in Beruit? Wouldn't Abu Nazzir have had an agent in DC pick it up and get it to him?

Speculation:


Spoiler



Now we gotta guess for dramatic purposes that Saul is either the mole or for whatever reason doesn't turn over the SD. In the previews we have "He knows the real story" and Brody kills somebody in a bloody attack and buries him in a ditch. Gotta be Saul who hasn't told anybody. How Saul could have been the mole while giving the green light to the hit is a mystery.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I had a couple issues during the show, but that ending... wow! No telling where this leads. I'm glad they're not going to drag out the "is he/isn't he" issue, and get right to it.

Issues: I had a problem when Carrie ran back into the house to gather intel. Just seemed out of character for her to screw up the entire dash-to-freedom by doing that. Sure it turned out ok, but at that time, it took me out of the scene when she did that.

And... I don't buy Brody warning Abu Nazir (not the physical act of TXTing; that's a different issue). He's clearly conflicted by his role, and here was his chance to kill his puppet-master. And he'd be free! But nooooo, he has to warn him and stay in the game. And later, he even makes the comment, "I cannot be texting secret messages while I am surrounded by the ****ing Joint Chiefs!. So why did you?

But the ending removed my issues and sent us to the next level.:up:


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I was wondering about the hair thing as well, but I'm guessing that the makeup budget didn't allow for it.

The explanation of how "Blonde Carrie" exited the country is easy --she went out on a CIA flight with her source. I doubt the Lebanon office of Border Control is going to spend a lot of time looking for the Brunette from Calgary. 

Another interesting thing is that when Carrie was on the Roof with Saul she said "I was never more sure about Brody and I was wrong, and that messed me up" -- as it turns out she was right about Brody and Saul knows that. 

Is this season 12 episodes as well?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

astrohip said:


> Issues: I had a problem when Carrie ran back into the house to gather intel. Just seemed out of character for her to screw up the entire dash-to-freedom by doing that. Sure it turned out ok, but at that time, it took me out of the scene when she did that.


Well, she is kind of crazy still. She might have been in a manic state and thought it was a good idea at the time.

I did too think "why is she doing that" but I work at a hospital that has a psych ward and if I spent time trying to figure out why people with behavioral problems do weird things I would just be chasing my own tail.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

It's s good thing that Abu Nazzir never changed his phone number, huh? 

(We never before saw Brody and Nazzir have direct contact except when Tom Walker had him on the phone and the Skype session in the embassy.)

Speaking of, how about the CIA using Skype? I hear that Microsoft screwed up Skype to make it tapable for law enforcement so those days must be over.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

netringer said:


> Most importantly the end. Saul has the Brody confession. WTF: Why would it be with a Hesbolah guy in Beruit? Wouldn't Abu Nazzir have had an agent in DC pick it up and get it to him?


Hmm. No idea why Hezbollah has it and not Naz Qaeda (or whatever his group is called).

As for why they still have it - I'm guessing that it was sent to the Middle East originally so that they could broadcast it after Brody blew himself up. When that didn't happen, they kept it in case it ever needed to be used as leverage.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

That might have been the best episode yet. I was on the edge of my seat the entire show.


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## caslu (Jun 24, 2003)

I was on the fence after what I considered a very disappointing 1st season finale, but after this episode... I am definitely here to stay. What a terrific hour of television!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

If I were Hugh Dancy (Mr. Claire Danes), I'd be just a touch nervous at how well she brings the crazy... 

I was a little put off by the astonishing string of coincidences that led to the video ending up in Saul's hands. But all in all, it was a great Ridley Scott-like episode. I'm VERY curious to see where it goes from here...realistically, it's pretty limited how many people can know about Brody, unless they're going in a completely different direction than I would anticipate.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...I was a little put off by the astonishing string of coincidences that led to the video ending up in Saul's hands. ...


They've had a lot of coincidences. For _this_ show I'll allow artistic license.

Somewhere along the line, some nerd terrist put the Micro SD card in a plastic case.  IIRC Brody hid a bare card.


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## squigy0 (Mar 20, 2003)

robojerk said:


> Well, she is kind of crazy still. She might have been in a manic state and thought it was a good idea at the time.


That and the recurring theme in the last couple episodes of last season and this one is that they treat her as crazy even though there's basis in truth of all the claims she makes and she basically has to run around like a crazy person to get the proof before they can stop her.



netringer said:


> We never before saw Brody and Nazzir have direct contact except when Tom Walker had him on the phone and the Skype session in the embassy


Except of course when Brody was "captive" and he was teaching and befriended his son.



DreadPirateRob said:


> As for why they still have it - I'm guessing that it was sent to the Middle East originally so that they could broadcast it after Brody blew himself up


Actually this is an unresolved from last season. Brody made the recording, found the loose rock and hid it behind it, and when the plot didn't go as expected tried to retrieve it. But somebody had removed it, and I had presumed it to either be a homeless person or passer-by that happened to see him put it there, or somebody that Nazzir had following him. Guess we know the answer to that mystery now but not exactly the intention they had for it.

Regarding the speculation about the mole, he's too deep into fighting on our side and had a lot of personal sacrifice to be the guy I think (although I guess the same description could apply to Brody), but the by-the-book way he wants to do everything may be his downfall (he'll hold onto the information to use Brody as a trap to get all the way to the top and somebody will slip through his fingers, and/or this'll be his cracking point and he & Carrie might just be switching lots in life by the end of the season.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

squigy0 said:


> ...Actually this is an unresolved from last season. Brody made the recording, found the loose rock and hid it behind it, and when the plot didn't go as expected tried to retrieve it. But somebody had removed it, and I had presumed it to either be a homeless person or passer-by that happened to see him put it there, or somebody that Nazzir had following him. Guess we know the answer to that mystery now but not exactly the intention they had for it.


Doh! Yeah. You point out that the whole point was that somebody would retrieve the card after the deed, meaning that of course, the drop handoff was planned.


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## DeDondeEs (Feb 20, 2004)

I just hope the show doesn't go in a direction where Saul sees the video, then he is kidnapped or something so he doesn't get the chance to tell anyone else. It would be nice to watch the show evolve instead of just going in circles.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DeDondeEs said:


> I just hope the show doesn't go in a direction where Saul sees the video, then he is kidnapped or something so he doesn't get the chance to tell anyone else. It would be nice to watch the show evolve instead of just going in circles.


That's what I'm saying. For whatever reason he keeps it a secret, or goes the VP or Brody first. "He knows THE TRUTH!" Somebody gets the Fargo treatment from Brody. Gotta be Saul.

BTW, how do Brody's Marine buddies think that Tom Walker was turned but Brody wasn't when they were POWs for the same amount of time? I think we didn't see Brody tell them he thought Walker was dead.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

netringer said:


> It's s good thing that Abu Nazzir never changed his phone number, huh?
> 
> (We never before saw Brody and Nazzir have direct contact except when Tom Walker had him on the phone and the Skype session in the embassy.)


I didn't think the message went directly to Nazzir, it went to someone else who showed him the phone/message and then he skidaddled.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

astrohip said:


> But the ending removed my issues and sent us to the next level.:up:


And thank God, because I could see multiple weeks of the whole "somebody tipped him off" aspect, and then they'd ask what was different about this, and then somebody would mention Brody watching the operation, and then we'd be back to last season.

-smak-


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

How about this: Saul gives the SD card to Estes, who was in on the drone attack with the VP et. al. Estes decides to bury it because they don't want the truth about the drone attack to come out. THAT'S "HE KNOWS THE TRUTH!" _Brody_ knows the truth. We already know that Saul challenged Estes, and got the truth when he found out that all mentions of the mission were gone from the files.

So they sandbag Saul, which would leave Carrie without Saul to let her know she was right, and Carrie continuing to doubt her sanity.

I'd sure hate to lose Saul.

Note: We also have to buy into Hollywood land where a simple video file can exist on a single MacGuffin card. It's not like there would be thousands of copies with a few hundred on YouTube alone. Maybe on Wikileaks.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

netringer said:


> Note: We also have to buy into Hollywood land where a simple video file can exist on a single MacGuffin card. It's not like there would be thousands of copies with a few hundred on YouTube alone. Maybe on Wikileaks.


Well, not until somebody gives it to somebody else. Which in this case hasn't been too likely. Yet.

I can see a day coming where that might happen, late in the show. But I can also see a day where that would be very likely coming much sooner. Hopefully, this isn't that kind of show! But it is a Hollywood trope...nobody ever tells anybody anything, nobody ever leaks anything onto the internet. Imagine how much better everybody's life would have been on Lost if people would have just leaked stuff onto the internet!

(Did I get that backwards?)


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

DeDondeEs said:


> I just hope the show doesn't go in a direction where Saul sees the video, then he is kidnapped or something so he doesn't get the chance to tell anyone else. It would be nice to watch the show evolve instead of just going in circles.


That information can't get out, it is way too early in the show as they plan a much longer arc. The question is, how does it not get out without ruining the show. Perhaps they keep the knowledge close to the vest so they can extract as much info as possible from Brodie.

Is it me or is the show becoming more like 24 this season? Perhaps I missed the 24 feeling last season? For me, 24 = Not good (flashback to mountain lion chasing Jack's daughter in the woods)

I hope they resist going more in the 24 direction - no more texting in pentagon war rooms please.. However, Carrie going Bat S**t Crazy and hopping out of the car to get that bag of evidence was well set up because she was in her B.S.C. state and needed a chill pill just before deciding on the assassination attempt.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Even though the act was ridiculous (texting in the war room), I thought the story aspect of it was fine. Brody loves Nazir. Yes, it's a false love, created by Nazir, but it is still incredibly strong. I'm sure he didn't 'want' to text him, but he just couldn't help himself. The depth of the connection created by Nazir is that strong.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

Not all hair dyes are permanent. Some wash right out. 

I suspect:

That SD card isn't the original. Copies were given to the Hezbollah and who knows who else.

Carrie is going to put together these two facts: 1. Nazir was warned and 2. Brody knew about the operation.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

The cell phone in the war room was a pretty big blemish on an otherwise great episode. The SD card at least has some plausibility with some mental gymnastics. Perhaps Nazir gave everyone copies in case he was ever in a trouble spot so they could release it and/or threaten Brody with the release if he doesn't do what they say. Kind of a leap but it at least is not as completely preposterous as the cell phone in the war room thing.

Why didn't Brody propose that Walker intentionally missed because he was having second thoughts either consciously or subconsciously?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Why didn't Brody propose that Walker intentionally missed because he was having second thoughts either consciously or subconsciously?


I don't know if this is where they're going, but it's pretty clear to me that Brody just isn't thinking clearly. He's overwhelmed by his obligations to Nazir, the pressures of his job (in a system that he at least partly hates), the scrutiny of being a Vice Presidential candidate, the pressure of his wife finding out about his religion...he's got all kinds of stress coming at him from all directions, after several years when everything was very simple. And he's not handling it well. In the case of Walker, to the extent that he's thinking about it he seems to be locked into the "blame Walker" story, but he seemed to be distracted by the whole thing and annoyed that he had to deal with it in the middle of everything else.

I get the feeling all this is deliberate on the part of the writers and not just something I'm reading into it. We'll see...


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't know if this is where they're going, but it's pretty clear to me that Brody just isn't thinking clearly. He's overwhelmed by his obligations to Nazir, the pressures of his job (in a system that he at least partly hates), the scrutiny of being a Vice Presidential candidate, the pressure of his wife finding out about his religion...he's got all kinds of stress coming at him from all directions, after several years when everything was very simple. And he's not handling it well. In the case of Walker, to the extent that he's thinking about it he seems to be locked into the "blame Walker" story, but he seemed to be distracted by the whole thing and annoyed that he had to deal with it in the middle of everything else.
> 
> I get the feeling all this is deliberate on the part of the writers and not just something I'm reading into it. We'll see...


Good analysis. I was mostly pondering what I would do in his shoes, but you are right that he doesn't seem able to think clearly with everything going on. At least he doesn't huddle in the corner of his bedroom anymore...


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

I joked to my wife when Brody came home stressed and then went in his bedroom, he would just say "Hi Jess, I'm really stressed, can I please masturbate on your breasts again? Just this once?"


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

At some point, if/when she gets back it going over the Nazzir data, Carrie is going to remember "Issa!"


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't know if this is where they're going, but it's pretty clear to me that Brody just isn't thinking clearly. He's overwhelmed by his obligations to Nazir, the pressures of his job (in a system that he at least partly hates), the scrutiny of being a Vice Presidential candidate, the pressure of his wife finding out about his religion...he's got all kinds of stress coming at him from all directions, after several years when everything was very simple. And he's not handling it well. In the case of Walker, to the extent that he's thinking about it he seems to be locked into the "blame Walker" story, but he seemed to be distracted by the whole thing and annoyed that he had to deal with it in the middle of everything else.
> 
> I get the feeling all this is deliberate on the part of the writers and not just something I'm reading into it. We'll see...





TAsunder said:


> Good analysis. I was mostly pondering what I would do in his shoes, but you are right that he doesn't seem able to think clearly with everything going on. At least he doesn't huddle in the corner of his bedroom anymore...


I think there's some support for that in Lewis' performance. If you remember, when he went to the bar to meet his old Marine buddies, he paused before going in, took a breath, and sort of gathered himself.

So yes, I think he is struggling to manage everything.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Definitely didn't expect that! I saw some headlines about something happening in this episode so I knew there was a big move, but I didn't expect it to be that (I'm guessing not many people did). I wasn't happy until the credits rolled because the whole time the scene was unfolding, I thought Saul was dead. These are "24" guys, after all... It was extremely plausible that he'd learn the truth--Carrie's vindicated!--and die immediately. Especially when he found the card five seconds after the other guy left and didn't just open the door and say "hey, wait, I found something else"... that whole scenario reeked of bad "24" writing. 

Now that it didn't go that way, it definitely makes the show more interesting. I'm still nervous it will go as others have described--Saul telling Brody "I know what you did!" and getting killed, or Saul telling Estes and Estes killing him because he's trying to cover up a mission from god-knows-how-long-ago. Both of these directions will likely be the end for me--it's just been done too many times. I don't think Saul trusts Estes and given that, his only option is to get the tape to the media, plain and simple. It might not be the best option operation-wise, but if he can't trust his boss than he has no choice. Not trying to damn it before it happens, just being very cautious given the history of these writers. 

I agree about Brody's warning not making any sense at all. He was prepared to go through with the attack last year, but changed his mind when Dana called him. He then came up with the idea that he'll become an elected official instead and play the long game for Nazir, but that seemed like a "lesser of two evils" ploy rather than something he truly wanted to do. Even in the last episode when the reporter chick lays out his mission, he's clearly not into and says he's not their guy then too. Yet he's given an incredible opportunity for the slate to be wiped clean and instead of just sitting back and watching, he warns Nazir and single-handedly ruins the strike. I don't know if that's bad writing or what, but it seems hugely inconsistent.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Yet he's given an incredible opportunity for the slate to be wiped clean and instead of just sitting back and watching, he warns Nazir and single-handedly ruins the strike. I don't know if that's bad writing or what, but it seems hugely inconsistent.


That's funny, because I already thought Brody's character was inconsistent long before this, but others were saying that Brody was playing along because he was afraid of Nazir blackmailing him. I never had the impression that Brody was afraid of being blackmailed. But even so, his character seems inconsistent.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Definitely didn't expect that! I saw some headlines about something happening in this episode so I knew there was a big move, but I didn't expect it to be that (I'm guessing not many people did). I wasn't happy until the credits rolled because the whole time the scene was unfolding, I thought Saul was dead. These are "24" guys, after all... It was extremely plausible that he'd learn the truth--Carrie's vindicated!--and die immediately. Especially when he found the card five seconds after the other guy left and didn't just open the door and say "hey, wait, I found something else"... that whole scenario reeked of bad "24" writing.
> 
> Now that it didn't go that way, it definitely makes the show more interesting. I'm still nervous it will go as others have described--Saul telling Brody "I know what you did!" and getting killed, or Saul telling Estes and Estes killing him because he's trying to cover up a mission from god-knows-how-long-ago. Both of these directions will likely be the end for me--it's just been done too many times. I don't think Saul trusts Estes and given that, his only option is to get the tape to the media, plain and simple. It might not be the best option operation-wise, but if he can't trust his boss than he has no choice. Not trying to damn it before it happens, just being very cautious given the history of these writers.


We agree! I'll also be horribly disappointed if it goes to cliche, too, but we haven't seen any of that on Homeland up until now. Soooo that means we can hope that our speculation that we'll see a scenario we've seen before like "I'm only telling you about the MacGuffin so you can kill me" will be way off.

If this was another JJ Abrams romp like Revolution the SD card wouldn't show up until episode 12



mrdazzo7 said:


> I agree about Brody's warning not making any sense at all. He was prepared to go through with the attack last year, but changed his mind when Dana called him. He then came up with the idea that he'll become an elected official instead and play the long game for Nazir, but that seemed like a "lesser of two evils" ploy rather than something he truly wanted to do. Even in the last episode when the reporter chick lays out his mission, he's clearly not into and says he's not their guy then too. Yet he's given an incredible opportunity for the slate to be wiped clean and instead of just sitting back and watching, he warns Nazir and single-handedly ruins the strike. I don't know if that's bad writing or what, but it seems hugely inconsistent.





john4200 said:


> That's funny, because I already thought Brody's character was inconsistent long before this, but others were saying that Brody was playing along because he was afraid of Nazir blackmailing him. I never had the impression that Brody was afraid of being blackmailed. But even so, his character seems inconsistent.


That's been a running heme all along. On one hand Brody and Abu Mazzir didn't count on his American family still being there to pull him back. On one hand he wants to be a dagger in teeth Jihadist angel of vengeance, but he can't figure out how to be that guy without devastating his family. It's symbolized in how he has to stay a devout Muslim while being Mr. Suburban American Dad War Hero(?) and now Honored Member of Congress.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

netringer said:


> That's been a running heme all along. On one hand Brody and Abu Mazzir didn't count on his American family still being there to pull him back. On one hand he wants to be a dagger in teeth Jihadist angel of vengeance, but he can't figure out how to be that guy without devastating his family. It's symbolized in how he has to stay a devout Muslim while being Mr. Suburban American Dad War Hero(?) and now Honored Member of Congress.


No, that is not what I meant. I don't have a problem with the conflict between Brody's family and political life vs. his desire for vengeance against those responsible for Issa's death.

What is inconsistent is that Brody says he does not want to be a terrorist, and it makes sense that he would not want to kill innocent people in retaliation for Issa's death, and yet he IS helping Nazir to kill innocent people. And it cannot be explained away by some sort of brainwashing, because Brody is not operating on autopilot or in a fog of confusion. He completely understands that stealing the encryption codes would help Nazir kill innocent people, and yet he does it anyway. Minds are not computers -- you cannot reprogram them that precisely.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Alternately, minds are not computers, and they don't always do what we would consider the logical thing...especially when they've been stressed as much and as long as Brody's. At this point, he doesn't know what he wants; he doesn't know what he's doing. He's conflicted to the breaking point.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Alternately, minds are not computers, and they don't always do what we would consider the logical thing...especially when they've been stressed as much and as long as Brody's. At this point, he doesn't know what he wants; he doesn't know what he's doing. He's conflicted to the breaking point.


And what he does know is that he loves Nazir. That is what I come back to in a lot of Brody's actions. He is fine with 'manipulating' policy for Nazir and not helping the USA find him, which of course helps Nazir kill innocents. Simply not turning over the evidence he has is betraying America.

I agree that the conflict is that he was suddenly faced with loving his American family as well, and getting stuck in the middle of that.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> At this point, he doesn't know what he wants; he doesn't know what he's doing.


Brody knows exactly what he is doing, and what he wants. He even says that he is not a terrorist and will not help kill innocent people.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

billypritchard said:


> And what he does know is that he loves Nazir.


I've seen no evidence that Brody "loves Nazir". Where are you getting that? Just because Brody tried to save him from getting shot?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Brody knows exactly what he is doing, and what he wants. He even says that he is not a terrorist and will not help kill innocent people.


And yet he puts on a suicide vest and gives encryption codes to terrorists.

I really don't think his mindset is anywhere near as simple as you make it out to be. He is a wildly conflicted individual, who wants wildly contradictory things.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

john4200 said:


> I've seen no evidence that Brody "loves Nazir". Where are you getting that? Just because Brody tried to save him from getting shot?


I'm remembering the cabin episode in season 1 where Brody basically tells Carrie how special Nazir is to him.

Am I remembering things wrong?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

billypritchard said:


> I'm remembering the cabin episode in season 1 where Brody basically tells Carrie how special Nazir is to him.
> 
> Am I remembering things wrong?


He only said that Nazzir was kind to him when nobody was.

While we're at it both Body and Walker were ARE Marines. Their brains were pre-washed to love America and the Corps above all. It would not be a simple matter to undo that. I'll accept that a Lee Harvey Oswald is a blatant exception.

Also how about the perp who set off a bomb in a DC park and then shot at the VP on the steps of ??? shows up shot dead and the case to find Jack Ruby is just dropped?


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

netringer said:


> He only said that Nazzir was kind to him when nobody was.
> 
> While we're at it both Body and Walker were ARE Marines. Their brains were pre-washed to love America and the Corps above all.* It would not be a simple matter to undo that*. I'll accept that a Lee Harvey Oswald is a blatant exception.
> 
> Also how about the perp who set off a bomb in a DC park and then shot at the VP on the steps of ??? shows up shot dead and the case to find Jack Ruby is just dropped?


I don't think you can say what Brody went through was a simple matter.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And yet he puts on a suicide vest and gives encryption codes to terrorists.


Exactly. His character and motivations are poorly written and unbelievable.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Exactly. His character and motivations are poorly written and unbelievable.


Or brilliantly written as a deeply conflicted individual.

But obviously we're never going to agree on this, so I'll just let it go.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or brilliantly written as a deeply conflicted individual.


Deeply conflicted about killing innocent people? That's absurd. Brody is a former Marine with a family. Unless you claim that he was always a psychopath (even before he was captured), it is just not remotely believable that the terrorists could completely change a person's core beliefs while still leaving a highly-functioning intellect.

Even less believable is the "explanation" given for Brody's change, that he was upset over the innocent boy Issa being killed -- if an innocent person being killed in war was what so devastated Brody, then it makes no sense for him to now want to participate in plots to kill innocent people.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or brilliantly written as a deeply conflicted individual.
> 
> But obviously we're never going to agree on this, so I'll just let it go.


As we've seen in the Revolution threads - certain people are simply unwilling to see nuance or alternative explanations. So your disengaging is probably best.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DreadPirateRob said:


> As we've seen in the Revolution threads - certain people are simply unwilling to see nuance or alternative explanations.


And then there are people who are willing to see a US Marine and family man who thinks killing of innocent Americans is a reasonable thing to do. Hmmm, now that you mention it, that would seem to be the same people who are willing to see former American soldiers hunting and killing American patriots as traitors as reasonable. Are you seeing a pattern here?


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

john4200 said:


> And then there are people who are willing to see a US Marine and family man who thinks killing of innocent Americans is a reasonable thing to do. Hmmm, now that you mention it, that would seem to be the same people who are willing to see former American soldiers hunting and killing American patriots as traitors as reasonable. Are you seeing a pattern here?


Maybe a pattern indicating that you think there is only one way to interpret any given set of facts or circumstances presented in a TV show?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Anybody find it weird that Brody's daughter basically said her father was a Muslim in a classroom full of Washington big shot's children, and it never got around to any of those big shots?

-smak-


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

john4200 said:


> And then there are people who are willing to see a US Marine and family man who thinks killing of innocent Americans is a reasonable thing to do. Hmmm, now that you mention it, that would seem to be the same people who are willing to see former American soldiers hunting and killing American patriots as traitors as reasonable. Are you seeing a pattern here?


There are plenty of recent examples of Marines and soldiers who are presumably family men who have decided to kill innocent civilians, both American and otherwise. You seem to think that all members of the armed forces, no matter what, are perfect and incapable of shirking their duty. Sorry, humans aren't like that.



Dawghows said:


> Maybe a pattern indicating that you think there is only one way to interpret any given set of facts or circumstances presented in a TV show?


Exactly. A pattern that keeps showing up.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> As we've seen in the Revolution threads - certain people are simply unwilling to see nuance or alternative explanations. So your disengaging is probably best.


I think what we've seen in the Revolution thread is that people don't always agree with you and explain their reasons why. You then call them inflexible and unwilling to listen and then refuse to listen to them and then bring it up whenever possible in unrelated threads.

As for Brody, it is indeed not necessarily credible for him to have turned just over the death. What made him turn was when the executive office announced to the world that the drone strike did not kill innocent school children, which Brody knew to be a lie.

As for killing of innocents, I am pretty sure you guys are accidentally arguing over semantics. Brody does not want to kill innocents if avoidable and that is clear. There's no way Nazir changed him into a person who does not care about innocent people based on what we've seen (i.e. him directly stating the opposite). However, he appears to be willing to allow innocents to die as part of a higher purpose, which is how he was coaxed into getting the strangely-secured target list.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And yet he puts on a suicide vest and gives encryption codes to terrorists.


Brody has said he doesn't want to kill innocent people, however when the bomb was strapped to him the people in the room with him, according to him, were not innocent. So no confliction..
Giving the info (codes, i thought they were coordinates) to Nazir, that is breaking his moral code.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> I think what we've seen in the Revolution thread is that people don't always agree with you and explain their reasons why. You then call them inflexible and unwilling to listen and then refuse to listen to them and then bring it up whenever possible in unrelated threads.


I'm not the one insisting there is only one way to feel/think about a particular plot point. How can I be? I'm generally the one saying that "X" is at least plausible because of "Y" and "Z". Not that it is necessarily true always, but that I'm willing to roll with it for now. I think there is plenty of room for disagreement.

I only called someone (you? - don't particularly remember and don't really care to look) inflexible because they refused to concede that there might be a scenario under which the show's premise could exist. That doesn't mean I "refused to listen" to you. It just meant that I disagreed with you over your stance that "it could never happen, no way, no how. I don't care what anyone else says." (Obviously not an exact quote).


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I'm not the one insisting there is only one way to feel/think about a particular plot point. How can I be? I'm generally the one saying that "X" is at least plausible because of "Y" and "Z". Not that it is necessarily true always, but that I'm willing to roll with it for now. I think there is plenty of room for disagreement.


You said that of me, after a long argument that basically began when I asked that they actually show Y and Z in the show instead of making us assume it.

Doesn't really have much to do with this thread except that someone is disagreeing with someone else and some of the participants were in both threads. So it was kind of a rude call-out in my opinion. Especially considering your initial barb was about me and I was already agreeing with Rob.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

billypritchard said:


> I don't think you can say what Brody went through was a simple matter.


What I mean is that doing effective Manchurian Candidate brainwashing is not something you'd expect your average Mujahadeen to know how to do.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

smak said:


> Anybody find it weird that Brody's daughter basically said her father was a Muslim in a classroom full of Washington big shot's children, and it never got around to any of those big shots?
> ...


Wasn't that the same VP's son who talked to her? Everybody is talking it as Dana spouting a stupid joke to make a point.

I wonder if Brody can claim that the video is altered - or he never says explicitly says what he "did" that he's taking about - and skate by.

Wondering: Brody was appointed to the congress to rep[alce the "wiener rep," right? Can you Brody him having to campaign and having his opponent attack his record as a war hero, like how Tammy Duckworth is getting it?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

netringer said:


> What I mean is that doing effective Manchurian Candidate brainwashing is not something you'd expect your average Mujahadeen to know how to do.


Nazir is shown to be far beyond an "average Mujahadeen ." And certainly they didn't show us anything close to Manchurian Candidate brainwashing. If he were that brainwashed the VP would be dead.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Especially considering your initial barb was about me and I was already agreeing with Rob.


Fair enough.

However, please believe me when I say that the original barb in this thread was actually not directed at you. You weren't the only one that I had disagreements with in the Revolution thread, which is why I couldn't remember who I had called inflexible.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> Nazir is shown to be far beyond an "average Mujahadeen ." And certainly they didn't show us anything close to Manchurian Candidate brainwashing. If he were that brainwashed the VP would be dead.


The VP isn't dead because the Brody character was popular and they didn't want to kill him off like they had planned.

tk


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

pendragn said:


> The VP isn't dead because the Brody character was popular and they didn't want to kill him off like they had planned.


I wasn't aware of that but just read up on that. Interesting!

Either way, he was not brainwashed at the manchurian candidate level, which is likely impossible anyway.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DreadPirateRob said:


> There are plenty of recent examples of Marines and soldiers who are presumably family men who have decided to kill innocent civilians...


So, since you are so flexible in your thinking, I assume you are willing to accept that the reason you have posted the opinions you have is because you are prejudiced against American soldiers? You think that members of the US military would not be opposed to participating in plots to kill innocent Americans and if there is a big disaster they would become traitors and declare American patriots to be their enemy, to be hunted and killed? In short, you subconsciously hate America and its armed forces.

If you are so flexible in your thinking, surely you are open to this possibility? It is possible, is it not?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

We don't know that the innocents would all be Americans in the case of the target list. Given the context, there's a decent chance it would be Israelis.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TAsunder said:


> We don't know that the innocents would all be Americans in the case of the target list. Given the context, there's a decent chance it would be Israelis.


It is certain that many (probably most) of the potential targets on such a list would be on American soil, since it is a DHS list. Given that Brody seems to think Nazir wants to retaliate against the Americans responsible for killing Issa, I'm not sure why you would suggest that Brody would be okay with killing innocents because he thinks there is a good chance they would not be Americans.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

john4200 said:


> It is certain that many (probably most) of the potential targets on such a list would be on American soil, since it is a DHS list. Given that Brody seems to think Nazir wants to retaliate against the Americans responsible for killing Issa, I'm not sure why you would suggest that Brody would be okay with killing innocents because he thinks there is a good chance they would not be Americans.


The direct agenda that they told Brody was retaliation for an israeli strike on iran's nuclear facilities.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

john4200 said:


> So, since you are so flexible in your thinking, I assume you are willing to accept that the reason you have posted the opinions you have is *because you are prejudiced against American soldiers*? You think that members of the US military would not be opposed to participating in plots to kill innocent Americans and if there is a big disaster they would become traitors and declare American patriots to be their enemy, to be hunted and killed? In short, you subconsciously hate America and its armed forces.
> 
> If you are so flexible in your thinking, surely you are open to this possibility? It is possible, is it not?


Absolutely not, because you could not be farther from the truth. One of my high school teammates is (well, was) a SEAL. One of my best friends, who was both a college fraternity brother as well as one of my roommates for 2 years, was a Marine in Desert Storm. I live in an area with both an active NWS as well as a joint forces base, so I see active duty soldiers, Marines, and seamen all the time, and if I am ever introduced to one, I thank them for their service. Heck, I have coached my son's youth sports teams with several dads who are active duty (one of whom got deployed mid-season and left me stranded coaching by myself). I'm probably the biggest fan of our military that you will find outside of someone who actually served (although my dad is a former National Guardsmen, and my father-in-law was a Reservist).

So every time I hear about an incident like the ones I mentioned (reluctantly, but the point had to be made) above I am pained greatly by it, because all it does is reinforce the negative opinion that those around the world have of our armed forces. But that doesn't mean that I ignore the fact that they are all human, and they all have foibles and flaws, so I don't hold them up to unreasonable standards of behavior under extraordinary circumstances, especially in fictional situations.

Seriously. Get over yourself. There's no need for the open hostility. I have expressed none towards you that I can think of (and if by some stretch something I wrote was interpreted as hostile, then I apologize).


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> We don't know that the innocents would all be Americans in the case of the target list. Given the context, there's a decent chance it would be Israelis.





john4200 said:


> It is certain that many (probably most) of the potential targets on such a list would be on American soil, since it is a DHS list. Given that Brody seems to think Nazir wants to retaliate against the Americans responsible for killing Issa, I'm not sure why you would suggest that Brody would be okay with killing innocents because he thinks there is a good chance they would not be Americans.





TAsunder said:


> The direct agenda that they told Brody was retaliation for an israeli strike on iran's nuclear facilities.


DHS isn't part of the CIA, so why would Estes have top secret documents relating to internal security assessments of American targets?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> DHS isn't part of the CIA, so why would Estes have top secret documents relating to internal security assessments of American targets?


I mentioned that the CIA has no business inside the US earlier. We do see lotsa TV shows and movies that have the CIA waving guns and shooting people inside the US, though.

Wasn't the idea of the DHS to combine CIA, FBI, Customs, etc so they would share intelligence? Thank G'd the CIA stayed out of that. Otherwise, with the DHS incompetence, we never would have gotten UBL.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

netringer said:


> I mentioned that the CIA has no business inside the US earlier. We do see lotsa TV shows and movies that have the CIA waving guns and shooting people. though.


This is true. Although I feel like sometimes shows have at least made passing reference to it. Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't they at least give lip service to this in the 1st season when Carrie first wanted to place Brody under surveillance?

Of course, the best/worst example of this was _24_. CTU was supposedly a division of the CIA, and yet they proudly operated almost entirely in the US.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

It will be interesting to see if we ever find out what the rest of Brody's taped confession says. The bit that we've seen implies that he is about to explicitly explain his reasons for blowing up the VP, so it would be pretty unbelievable if they somehow then tried to write a scenario where the confession gets out and Brody has a way to weasel out of it because nothing he said on the recording was explicit and everything could be explained in another way.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DreadPirateRob said:


> DHS isn't part of the CIA, so why would Estes have top secret documents relating to internal security assessments of American targets?


Probably because the CIA provides some of the intelligence used to create the lists, and uses some of the intelligence from the lists in their operations. The CIA supposedly does not operate in the US, but terrorist threats largely come from outside the US, so it is easy to see why the CIA would be interested and/or involved with the intelligence related to a potential targets list.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Seriously. Get over yourself. There's no need for the open hostility. I have expressed none towards you that I can think of (and if by some stretch something I wrote was interpreted as hostile, then I apologize).


You have repeatedly claimed that people who do not agree with you are at fault because of their inflexible mind or inability to see nuance.

Clearly you are unwilling to accept the possibility that you might be subconsciously prejudiced against American soldiers.

The point is that you should not be throwing around accusations of inflexibility just because someone does not agree with you. I was trying to point this out to you by treating you the way you have treated others, but clearly it went over your head.

You seriously need to get over yourself.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> It will be interesting to see if we ever find out what the rest of Brody's taped confession says. The bit that we've seen implies that he is about to explicitly explain his reasons for blowing up the VP, so it would be pretty unbelievable if they somehow then tried to write a scenario where the confession gets out and Brody has a way to weasel out of it because nothing he said on the recording was explicit and everything could be explained in another way.


'zactly. The bit we've seen (twice) says "...I am a Sergeant in the US Marines. By now you know what I did..I love my family.." It sure looks like the writers have left the possibilities open for it to say nothing explicit about the suicide attack and that he made it about his captivity for his run for congress or something mundane, even if he mentions he knows about the Issa drone attack.

I still say his opponent could use that to attack him when he runs, but the way it goes these days, it would be "What do want to believe? The actual video or what we say it says?" _(Rush is saying that Romney never mentioned Big Bird.)_


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## Carlucci (Jan 10, 2001)

One thing missing from this discussion of Brody's mindset is the fact the he FLIPPED THE SWITCH! And when he did it, he had every intent of suicide bombing the whole room full of people. He had no idea it wouldn't work, and if you judge by the intent rather than the outcome, which we should always do in cases of terrorism, it's case closed.

If this show's goal is to get us to believe that he is still redeemable after that, it's an extremely difficult, if not impossible sell for me. He's a monster, through and through in my book.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Carlucci said:


> If this show's goal is to get us to believe that he is still redeemable after that, it's an extremely difficult, if not impossible sell for me. He's a monster, through and through in my book.


If Brody were written as a believable character, I would agree with you. But since his character is so poorly written, I have a hard time judging the character at all. It's too bad they didn't explode him last season.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

...maybe try a new show??


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## brebeans (Sep 5, 2003)

billypritchard said:


> Even though the act was ridiculous (texting in the war room), I thought the story aspect of it was fine. Brody loves Nazir. Yes, it's a false love, created by Nazir, but it is still incredibly strong. I'm sure he didn't 'want' to text him, but he just couldn't help himself. The depth of the connection created by Nazir is that strong.


And, he was brainwashed and "turned". He is human and conflicted, but only at times. He is clearly strongly connected to "the other side" , because of the loss of Issa at US hands, the coverup, the "saving" of him by Nazir and, of course, the fact that they continue to mess with him and have brainwashed him.

When he sees his family, etc. he gets conflicted, but there hasn't been anything that he's done to show he's loyal to US....to his family, he's trying to be, but he only became a Congressman to infiltrate the government and provide info to Nazir, et al in a "non violent" way. Which, of course is ridiculous...HE might not be violent (although he was by killing Walker), but anything he does to help Nazir, ends up in violence/loss of lives.


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## brebeans (Sep 5, 2003)

Carlucci said:


> One thing missing from this discussion of Brody's mindset is the fact the he FLIPPED THE SWITCH! And when he did it, he had every intent of suicide bombing the whole room full of people. He had no idea it wouldn't work, and if you judge by the intent rather than the outcome, which we should always do in cases of terrorism, it's case closed.
> 
> If this show's goal is to get us to believe that he is still redeemable after that, it's an extremely difficult, if not impossible sell for me. He's a monster, through and through in my book.


Agree! He is on "their side", clearly, Nothing he has done supports the US. It only emboldens Nazir. Yes, he's a human being who loved/loves his family, but everything he has done has been to support Nazir et al.

Unless something happens to have him "turn" the other way...i.e. back to "our side".....although they'll always be that suspicion. You don't risk your life and livelihood by texting from the Situation Room, going into the safe, meeting with Nazir accomplices, etc. 
Brody is doing a great job of showing how he is conflicted (well the actor is doing a great job!), but overall, he is exactly why we sometimes "fall" for lies, deceit and danger...people "act" nice/caring.

Carrie was right all along and I can't wait until she finds out that she was! Hopefully, someone who supports her (Saul) will ....and then do something about it. Albeit, that might not be until the end of the season, if at all!

Very interesting to see where they take this!


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## brebeans (Sep 5, 2003)

markp99 said:


> ...maybe try a new show??


Agree!

Sounds like there isn't much about this show that John4200 likes or believes....


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

markp99 said:


> ...maybe try a new show *website*??


FYP


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

brebeans said:


> Agree!
> 
> Sounds like there isn't much about this show that John4200 likes or believes....


Which is fine, but why spend the time (his and ours) to complain. It's so tedious.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

Has anyone seen the show Homeland is based on? What is the name of it and where is it available to watch?


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Prisoners of War? Netflix just had it available prior to Homeland S2 starting, don't know if it is still out there.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Not that I really want to spend a lot of time playing Devil's advocate, but the VP is clearly an immoral leader as shown in the show so far. Brody killing him and harming nearby innocents is not that far off from a US drone strike intended for nazir killing a crapload of school children that they clearly knew were nearby. The VP is not as bad of a dude as Nazir, but both sides seem willing to sacrifice boatloads of innocent people to kill their enemy.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Carlucci said:


> ...If this show's goal is to get us to believe that he is still redeemable after that, it's an extremely difficult, if not impossible sell for me. He's a monster, through and through in my book.


You're right. He had no compunction about killing innocents in the bunker.

One more brainshower I had: Watch for a new plot thread as the CIA gets Brody to help bring down Nazzir.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tiams said:


> Has anyone seen the show Homeland is based on? What is the name of it and where is it available to watch?


Was mentioned. It's on Hulu.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

netringer said:


> How about this: Saul gives the SD card to Estes, who was in on the drone attack with the VP et. al. Estes decides to bury it because they don't want the truth about the drone attack to come out. THAT'S "HE KNOWS THE TRUTH!" _Brody_ knows the truth. We already know that Saul challenged Estes, and got the truth when he found out that all mentions of the mission were gone from the files.
> 
> So they sandbag Saul, which would leave Carrie without Saul to let her know she was right, and Carrie continuing to doubt her sanity.
> 
> ...


[Coming to this a bit late; didn't get a chance to watch the episode until last night]

If we follow your idea and Saul goes directly to Estes then Saul would have to be extra extra paranoid to violate security by making a personal copy of the file.

Now I'm sure the terrorists have plenty of copies (like tiams mentioned above). In fact thinking about it after the fact that might be _why_ the Hezbollah guy had one instead of Nazir. That wasn't the primary, it was one of the distributed back-up copies to be used for leverage if necessary.

But unless Brody is taken out of play or starts playing double-agent Nazir has no reason to expose him; so it shouldn't mater how many copies of the recorded Nazir stashed as deadman switches. (Well additional copies does make it slightly more likely for US or friendly forces to turn up another during some raid or other; but beyond that...) It's not getting put on the internet because it went straight from Brody through the pre-arranged dead-drop to Nazir's group. Nazir then presumably spread a limited number of copies to people he could trust to keep it secret until or unless it was needed. If Brody had gone through with the suicide bombing then it would have hit the net and Arab TV and no-one could have covered it up. But Nazir clearly didn't jump the gun; he was waiting to hear news of the attack before releasing Brody's message. (And Brody's own wording shows he was aware of that plan; it was worded like it would be released only after the fact that he was the bomber had been determined and publicized from the US side)


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## brebeans (Sep 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or brilliantly written as a deeply conflicted individual.
> 
> :up:


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

brebeans said:


> Sounds like there isn't much about this show that John4200 likes or believes....


You are incorrect, and you should be more careful about jumping to false conclusions about what I like or believe.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

tiams said:


> Has anyone seen the show Homeland is based on? What is the name of it and where is it available to watch?


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1676462/ As others said, it's available on Hulu. I find it as good or better than Homeland.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Not that I really want to spend a lot of time playing Devil's advocate, but the VP is clearly an immoral leader as shown in the show so far.


Clearly.












Greg


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## StacieH (Jan 2, 2009)

john4200 said:


> You are incorrect, and you should be more careful about jumping to false conclusions about what I like or believe.


Wow, that sounds like the makings of a threat. 

I love this show, and it looks like Season 2 is going to be a good one. I couldnt believe it when Brody sent the text message to Nazir. I wonder if May 1 is significant. Im assuming is was a mayday signal?


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