# Series 3 + FreeAgent Pro = no 9.4?



## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

So, I have 3 S3 and 2 THD. All but one S3 has upgraded to 9.4. The one remaining one got a message about potential problems with FreeAgent Pro's.

Is that it? So no upgrade on that one until I get rid of the FreeAgent Pro?

Anyone with a S3 and a FAP external drive get 9.4 yet? I'd think most of us early S3 folks have at least one left with a FAP on it (like me)?

*Edit - It appears this is true. If you have a FAP, and weren't in the beta, you won't get 9.4! At least right now. Perhaps Tivo will change their minds? Otherwise, we all have to dump our recordings and buy an Antek and start over! Lame...*


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## RouterGuy (Mar 2, 2007)

I have a S3 with a FAP, and got the same message and no 9.4


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## sbessel (Dec 10, 2001)

So what are out options?
I have a spare 1tb drive in an antec case, can I put that in place, will 9.3 accept it?
My other S3 has a 1tb Western Digital with an Antec case and it updated just fine.

What will I loose if I pull the drive?


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

> I have a spare 1tb drive in an antec case, can I put that in place, will 9.3 accept it?


What model?


> My other S3 has a 1tb Western Digital with an Antec case and it updated just fine.


I have this also and it updated and is running fine.



> What will I loose if I pull the drive?


Everything.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Does WinMFS copy 2-drives to 2-drives yet?

I'd be happy to replace it, but I'd prefer not to lose recordings.


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## n0pa (Aug 29, 2006)

I am in the same boat (FAP and not 9.4). Hopefully they push it soon.


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## KGeorgio (Aug 2, 2008)

All programs recorded since you hooked it up.


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## n0pa (Aug 29, 2006)

Other then random restarts every coupe of days i have no problems with shows recording.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

n0pa said:


> Other then random restarts every coupe of days i have no problems with shows recording.


I've had no problems at all with my FAP S3. However, it looks like they won't download 9.4 to any FAP S3's.

So I have to go and spend $350 on two new 1TB drives and an Antek case, and it looks like completely blow away my S3 and start clean (WinMFS and MFSLive don't support 2-drive to 2-drive copies... bummer...).


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

AbMagFab said:


> (WinMFS and MFSLive don't support 2-drive to 2-drive copies... bummer...).


only one byte needs to be changed.

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=399179


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Da Goon said:


> only one byte needs to be changed.
> 
> http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=399179


That's 2-drive to 1-drive. Do we know that works for 2-drive to 2-drive, plus expansion on both drives?


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## MJedi (Jun 17, 2002)

I got the same message that the FAP is not reliable with my S3. So they won't push the update to us FAP users? Or the update will break the S3+FAP combo?


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

MJedi said:


> I got the same message that the FAP is not reliable with my S3. So they won't push the update to us FAP users? Or the update will break the S3+FAP combo?


It appears they won't push the update to us. Super lame.

I'm not looking forward to redoing my S3 from scratch, but I'm TTG everything I care about now, and have 2 x 1TB's on order from newegg. I'll try the patched mfslive to see if I can go from 2x750's to 2x1TB's, but I doubt that will work, so I'll be starting with a clean S3... :down:

I'll post again here at a minimum when I get through the upgrade. Hopefully someone else can help, either with confirmation that there is a good 2x -> 2x copy keeping recordings, or that there's some way to get 9.4 without dropping the FAP (although I'm now kind of committed to the upgrade since I just bought the drives).

And hey, I'll get another 500GB of storage on my S3 when I'm done. So it's not a total waste...


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

I have had no problems with my FAP and S3 since I installed it over a year ago. Alas, I also received the same message and have not gotten v9.4. I have a lot of stuff saved on the FAP/S3 combo and would hate to lose it all now...


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## eDbolson (Oct 25, 2001)

My Tivo S3 just got the message about problems with the Free Agent Pro, but I already have 9.4 on it. Perhaps because I signed up for something I'm not supposed to discuss!?

In any case, I have had severe problems with lockups followed by reboot while playing recordings from HD channels (usually). BUT, I had a curious thing happen just before leaving for a 2 week vacation:

The TiVo rebooted and then would not connect. In fact, the drive appeared to not even be running. I did all of the stuff about powering off, turning on drive, then TiVo, but the drive still wasn't working. I thought that I'd just lost a lot of hours of saved and unwatched shows. However, I have several of these drives. On a whim, I plugged in a different power supply - bingo, drive started up, connected to TiVo and everything was back!

I contacted Seagate and they promised to send a new supply (and less than a month later, I got it!).

In the meantime, I was still having the lockup/restarts. One detail is that the disk and TiVo are in a cabinet with no active cooling and the drive especially gets very hot. In addition it is sitting on a shelf directly on top of a large sub-woofer (supposedly shielded).

I finally pulled the TiVo S3 and FAP out of the cabinet and put them out in the open air. Getting wires rerouted was not fun (optical audio barely reaches) but I am convinced the disk and TiVo are working much better. I have not had a lockup/reboot while watching any NEWLY recorded shows. I believe I still get them with some recordings that I eventually will watch and then remove (or give up on) since I can usually fast forward past the bad spots. I am also convinced that there is a hardware problem with the disk, and have already purchased a new 750 GB drive and put it in the Antec MX-1 enclosure. Now I just need a day free of expected recording to copy the FAP to the new drive.

I bought the Free Agent Pro due mostly to the 5 year warranty. But it apparently doesn't play nice with TiVo S3. Oh well.


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## spike2k5 (Feb 21, 2006)

I think one possible solution is to take the drive out of FAP and put it in Antec MX-1.



> Does WinMFS copy 2-drives to 2-drives yet?


Sorry, WinMFS doesn't do that yet but currently working on a better solution.


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## msrolla (Feb 11, 2004)

I also have no problems with the FAP. If I have to stay on 9.3, so be it. I have another S3 (without an FAP) that's updated to 9.4, so it will be used for watching youtube.

Maybe I'll eventually offload the shows and swap for an approved drive, but it's not a rush. What's the status on the WD 1TB "My DVR" Expander?.

Weren't there some people looking for ways to NOT receive 9.4? Looks like there may be a way.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

spike2k5 said:


> I think one possible solution is to take the drive out of FAP and put it in Antec MX-1.
> 
> Sorry, WinMFS doesn't do that yet but currently working on a better solution.


Any ETA? I posted about this on the WinMFS boards back in February, and I don't think anything has been done to help. I don't hold out much hope we'll every be able to do this (at least not in any timeframe that matters - it will be quicker to just TTG/TTCB/MRV everything for most people).


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

msrolla said:


> I also have no problems with the FAP. If I have to stay on 9.3, so be it. I have another S3 (without an FAP) that's updated to 9.4, so it will be used for watching youtube.
> 
> Maybe I'll eventually offload the shows and swap for an approved drive, but it's not a rush. What's the status on the WD 1TB "My DVR" Expander?.
> 
> Weren't there some people looking for ways to NOT receive 9.4? Looks like there may be a way.


But it's not just YouTube, is deleting folders, it's guide-over-playing-program, it's 24-hour guide hop, and a couple other things. It's a nice update (and seems peppier, too).

In any case, I have to be able to upgrade my main HT Tivo to the newest software... And it's really lame of Tivo to simply not upgrade us.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

Funny how my FAP has worked fine since the backdoor was introduced way back when.... and all of a sudden it's not good enough?


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## sbessel (Dec 10, 2001)

jrm01 said:


> What model?
> 
> I have this also and it updated and is running fine.
> 
> Everything.


Everything as in all settings and season passes, or just recordings?

The 1tb model I have is a samsung 1tb, the one in my wifes is a Hitachi 1tb.

Funny thing is my wife's got the update and now we are missing a bunch of cable card channels...

so personally I thnk I will stay where I am, the feature list is way to small for such a big change.

But my real question will 9.3 allow me to put in another drive that is not the TiVo blessed unit? I know when I did mine it was a limited window and a menu item that I could add, I know they took that out a while back, so I am concerned if I pull my FAP I would be locked into a TiVo blessed MyDVR 500g unit.


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## Grey Griffin (May 24, 2007)

I had a FAP hooked up and disconnected it yesterday. AFTER I disconnected and went back to single drive I received the message about it not being compatible. I found the timing rather amusing. 

My S3 had started freezing and rebooting the last two weeks and I'm pretty sure it was always shows that were on the external drive. I had a similar problem with a WD drive last year and it ended up frying the whole Tivo so I decided to disconnect before things got any worse.


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## MJedi (Jun 17, 2002)

So what is it about the FAP that makes it unreliable? And why would an Antec with the FAP's drive be better? Or what makes the My DVR Expander work best?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

MJedi said:


> So what is it about the FAP that makes it unreliable?


From the TivoHD freeze thread...



TiVoJerry said:


> In very recent testing, multiple Seagate FreeAgent Pro 750gb drives were determined to write to disk slowly enough to cause performance problems. The drive also appears to have some type of basic incompatability with the SATA controller (throws out a lot of drive status CRC errors). This could be caused by a bad or flaky cable, or even electromagnetic noise on one or two drives, but we saw it across the board. Those problems have been there since day one but may not have been particularly noticeable to the customer.
> 
> If a problem arises during startup, the external drive might be detected as unsupported or not be recognized at all. Multiple restarts would likely get around the incompatability, but YMMV.





MJedi said:


> And why would an Antec with the FAP's drive be better?


If the problem is the SATA controller on the FAP, it could make a difference. (Your Tivo would still think it is a FAP because it reads the drive's firmware info not the controller's.) I assume they will still push 9.4 to the FAPs anyways?  If not, this won't get around the issue of being excluded. If you could do that, people would just buy the MyDVR Expander and throw in a 1TB drive... (to get Plug-N-Play on TivoHD's with bigger drives.)



MJedi said:


> Or what makes the My DVR Expander work best?


Nothing, other than it is the only one support with Plug-n-Play for TivoHD.


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## ronr2006 (Nov 10, 2006)

What if I remove my FAP (that's working perfectly!), get 9.4, and then reconnect my FAP? Will 9.4 then not allow the FAP connection ? I realize that I'll loose everything.

RR


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ronr2006 said:


> What if I remove my FAP (that's working perfectly!), get 9.4, and then reconnect my FAP? Will 9.4 then not allow the FAP connection ? I realize that I'll loose everything.
> 
> RR


Honestly, I can't imagine they will not push 9.4 regardless. Is there a precedent to not receiving an update because of hardware? I seem to recall an issue with a usb adapter, but that was just until the problem was resolved software side.

Edit: I see I didn't really address your question, which is a good one. Can you add a FAP to a 9.4 running S3 Tivo? IDK, but would guess not.


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## n0pa (Aug 29, 2006)

It doesn't bother me that they will not push 9.4. I think it's nice that they will allow us to run 9.3 because it work better. Most companies will just push the software and leave you to figure out the problem. After all it's easier for them to only have to support one version of the software. 

What does bother me is the fact they never told us. It would have been nice in the message they sent to say, "Because of this issue you will not receive 9.4 and later updates". Open communications is all I am asking for. I guess the message they did send is better then nothing at all.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> Honestly, I can't imagine they will not push 9.4 regardless. Is there a precedent to not receiving an update because of hardware? I seem to recall an issue with a usb adapter, but that was just until the problem was resolved software side.


The 9.4 switch has been flipped for everyone.

Only people with a FAP on a S3 are unable to get 9.4 (unless they were in the beta testing group). Keep forcing dial-in, and no upgrade. Everything/everyone else should have 9.4 by now.

Ergo, they aren't pushing 9.4 to FAP users. And the message they gave us all indicates such, but the empirical evidence is pretty definitive.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> *Otherwise, we all have to dump our recordings and buy an Antek and start over! Lame...*


Will just buying an Antec case be enough? Won't you have to also buy a new drive?

Or I am mistaken?



greg_burns said:


> If the problem is the SATA controller on the FAP, it could make a difference. (Your Tivo would still think it is a FAP because it reads the drive's firmware info not the controller's.) I assume they will still push 9.4 to the FAPs anyways?  If not, this won't get around the issue of being excluded. If you could do that, people would just buy the MyDVR Expander and throw in a 1TB drive... (to get Plug-N-Play on TivoHD's with bigger drives.)


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## RouterGuy (Mar 2, 2007)

Can I just take the drive out the FAP format it and reconnect it to the my S3 with another eSATA enclosure?

Or is my only option to get the official Tivo eSATA drive?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

RouterGuy said:


> Can I just take the drive out the FAP format it and reconnect it to the my S3 with another eSATA enclosure?
> 
> Or is my only option to get the official Tivo eSATA drive?


You most definately do NOT have to buy the official Tivo eSATA drive (if you don't want to). Especially, with an original S3 (not TivoHD).

See my post right above. I think Tivo knows you have a FAP by the drive's firmware, not the enclosure. Reformatting will not change that.

Your other option (if sticking with external drive) would buy a different enclosure (like the Antec MX-1) *and a new drive*.  But that is just my speculation, I would wait for somebody to confirm.

Another route, would be to buy a new drive and put THAT in your FAP's enclosure. That would probably fool your Tivo as well, but doesn't avoid the problems mentioned by TivoJerry and probably is asking for trouble.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> Will just buying an Antec case be enough? Won't you have to also buy a new drive?
> 
> Or I am mistaken?


New drives and an Antek. (In my earlier post I mentioned I already ordered two 1TB WD10EACS drives.)


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

I do NOT like this precedent.

Whats next, version 9.5 will exclude yet MORE hardware manufacturers of eSATA drives, presently allowed on S3s?

The genie is being let out of the bottle.

I really hope this is only temporary and Tivo programmers find a way to support FAP connected S3s for 9.4.

Otherwise, I can forsee a slippery slope of the backdoor being closed 100% eventually to non-officially supported hardware.


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

Does anyone think it's possible that Tivo is using this message to weed out any users who are currently having issues with the FAP? Maybe they want to wait and give some time for people already having problems to disconnect their drives before they roll out the new software and further complicate the isolation of future potentially unrelated issues.

It'd be a shame if those of us who have kept our drives properly ventilated, connected with a quality cable and away from vibration, magnets or any other known causes of problems were denied the new software because of those who didn't take proper care of their drive. Maybe once Tivo monitors the numbers of FAP users for a while after the message they'll go ahead and give everyone who's kept their drive the new software.

Just trying to think of something positive, as I currently have no plans on going through the cost and hassle of replacing my problem-free FAP unless Tivo officially states it is incompatible with 9.4 under all circumstances. And even then I may just stay on 9.3 for the foreseeable future.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

S3-2501 said:


> Does anyone think it's possible that Tivo is using this message to weed out any users who are currently having issues with the FAP? Maybe they want to wait and give some time for people already having problems to disconnect their drives before they roll out the new software and further complicate the isolation of future potentially unrelated issues.
> 
> It'd be a shame if those of us who have kept our drives properly ventilated, connected with a quality cable and away from vibration, magnets or any other known causes of problems were denied the new software because of those who didn't take proper care of their drive. Maybe once Tivo monitors the numbers of FAP users for a while after the message they'll go ahead and give everyone who's kept their drive the new software.
> 
> Just trying to think of something positive, as I currently have no plans on going through the cost and hassle of replacing my problem-free FAP unless Tivo officially states it is incompatible with 9.4 under all circumstances. And even then I may just stay on 9.3 for the foreseeable future.


I agree that this is the most likely scenario. But it ticks me off that they're doing this at all. It seems like people who have problems are people who would have problems with the official Tivo external drive. It's like we're all being punished for a few people's bad behavior.

Anyway, it gives me an excuse to upgrade from 1.5TB to 2TB anyway, and from Seagate to the WD green drives (which I like a lot more).

Of course, next time they'll say any non-Tivo external drive won't get the upgrade, right?!?


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## bevansmd (Jul 14, 2004)

I've had no problems with my series 3 with esata freeagent pro 750. Now I got warning from tivo re: problems. Still 9.3 software but had a lot of tiling and freezing on The Cleaner recording on nonhd A&E channel at midnight last night. This hasn't been a problem for me in the past. Has tivo set us up for problems because we didn't buy tivo sanctioned esata drives?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

bevansmd said:


> Has tivo set us up for problems because we didn't buy tivo sanctioned esata drives?


How do you come to that conclusion based on what TivoJerry posted?


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## ronr2006 (Nov 10, 2006)

I disconnect my FAP and let my S3 do its thing. It's working fine but now I can't get 9.4. I've done many many connects and no 9.4. Am I now blacklisted because I HAD a FAP... sheesh !

RR


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## masterwick (Feb 10, 2006)

ronr2006 said:


> I disconnect my FAP and let my S3 do its thing. It's working fine but now I can't get 9.4. I've done many many connects and no 9.4. Am I now blacklisted because I HAD a FAP... sheesh !
> 
> RR


Interesting. Not a good sign. Keep us updated if your status changes.

What is Tivo official take on the FAP+9.4? I see they aren't pushing/allowing 9.4 upgrade with FAP systems but I wonder if they are working on a solution or plan to push/allow 9.4+FAP.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

ronr2006 said:


> I disconnect my FAP and let my S3 do its thing. It's working fine but now I can't get 9.4. I've done many many connects and no 9.4. Am I now blacklisted because I HAD a FAP... sheesh !
> 
> RR


Wow, but that makes sense. They probably registered your service number as one with a FAP, and not to get 9.4.

Good news is if you have another TivoHD/S3 in the house, you can just backup/restore from that to get 9.4. Which it looks like I'll have to do.

*Have you tried calling them up to release your service number*, telling them you removed your FAP? I'm sure it's something technical support can do, just like other scenarios when your Tivo can't get something like an update.


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## ctcraig (Mar 16, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> So, I have 3 S3 and 2 THD. All but one S3 has upgraded to 9.4. The one remaining one got a message about potential problems with FreeAgent Pro's.
> 
> Is that it? So no upgrade on that one until I get rid of the FreeAgent Pro?
> 
> ...


So is it confirmed that if you have an FAP you will not get the 9.4 update?


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

I spoke to Tivo support this afternoon and they hadn't heard anything about the 9.4 update being tied to the type of external drive you have. They told me they are still in the first "wave" of 9.4 upgrade releases.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> Good news is if you have another TivoHD/S3 in the house, you can just backup/restore from that to get 9.4. Which it looks like I'll have to do.


I'm not sure that works. I think the mothership keeps track of version numbers..


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

Gregor said:


> I'm not sure that works. I think the mothership keeps track of version numbers..


it'll work fine. a clear and delete everything will required afterwards to reset the diskconfiguration key on the new tivo.

did anyone ever consider the possibility that tivo may be working on a new revision for folks using the FAP or did everyone just start freaking out and blaming tivo for something out of their control?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> I've had no problems at all with my FAP S3. However, it looks like they won't download 9.4 to any FAP S3's.
> 
> So I have to go and spend $350 on two new 1TB drives and an Antek case, and it looks like completely blow away my S3 and start clean (WinMFS and MFSLive don't support 2-drive to 2-drive copies... bummer...).


Why not wait for the 1.5TB drives that are coming out this month?


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## ronr2006 (Nov 10, 2006)

Ok, after disconnecting my FAP and connecting and trying to get 9.4 I followed someones suggestion and called Tivo customer support. What a laugh... she had absolutly no clue about the FreeAgent Pro and the mesage that came out last Friday. She did say that there was nothing in my records that should stop me from getting the update to 9.4. Her only suggestion was to power down and restart and then do the "Guided Setup"... HUH ? Of couse that did nothing and a new connect was again useless.

Perhaps I'm just not in this first wave of updates...

RR


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

ronr2006 said:


> Ok, after disconnecting my FAP and connecting and trying to get 9.4 I followed someones suggestion and called Tivo customer support. What a laugh... she had absolutly no clue about the FreeAgent Pro and the mesage that came out last Friday. She did say that there was nothing in my records that should stop me from getting the update to 9.4. Her only suggestion was to power down and restart and then do the "Guided Setup"... HUH ? Of couse that did nothing and a new connect was again useless.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just not in this first wave of updates...
> 
> RR


It's not the first wave - it's been turned on for everyone as of 8/1.

When you call up, don't mention the FAP, just say you're not getting the update, and you want to be escalated to tech support so you get the update. Say you've done multiple connects, and repeated guided setup, and you're still not getting it.

(One possibility is that your Tivo is actually stopping it - like they downloaded something to it to check before applying the update - so you have it, but it's just not installing. Have you done a C&DE? That would clear that part up. I'll try this before I do a restore from another 9.4 box to see if it helps, sometime after Wednesday.)

They can definitely make it happen. But you have to get past the initial CSR layer.


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## ronr2006 (Nov 10, 2006)

Sorry, C&DE ?


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

Just got off the phone. Asked to be escalated to tech support and was. 
was told that 9.4 has not been rolled out for everyone yet. It's being rolled out in waves during this week.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ronr2006 said:


> Sorry, C&DE ?


Clear & Delete Everything from menu


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Da Goon said:


> did anyone ever consider the possibility that tivo may be working on a new revision for folks using the FAP or did everyone just start freaking out and blaming tivo for something out of their control?


From what TivoJerry posted it sounded like the FAP were problematic hardware. No software is going to fix that.

Obviously that is not true for everyone's (at least not on the surface). But if it is Tivo's position that the hardware is trouble, how are they going to write software around that?

(I am not of the opinion that 9.4 would run any different than 9.3 on a FAP. I think that they just are now aware of issues with them and are pulling "support" here and now. I could be wrong of course.)


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

jbrennan said:


> Just got off the phone. Asked to be escalated to tech support and was.
> was told that 9.4 has not been rolled out for everyone yet. It's being rolled out in waves during this week.


Well, that's just not true. At least if you buy a new TivoHD, you will get 9.4 after forcing a few dial-ins. I'd be surprised if the existing ones still have to wait? I'll be getting a new TivoHD this week as well, so I can confirm this, too.

Check out the YouTube selection and see what it says on your Tivo.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> Well, that's just not true. At least if you buy a new TivoHD, you will get 9.4 after forcing a few dial-ins. I'd be surprised if the existing ones still have to wait? I'll be getting a new TivoHD this week as well, so I can confirm this, too.
> 
> Check out the YouTube selection and see what it says on your Tivo.


I agree. Other than the FAP users, I don't see anyone saying (on this board) that they didn't get 9.4 on their S3/TivoHD by now.


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## ronr2006 (Nov 10, 2006)

jbrennan said:


> Just got off the phone. Asked to be escalated to tech support and was.
> was told that 9.4 has not been rolled out for everyone yet. It's being rolled out in waves during this week.


I got the same answer. Looks like disconnecting a working FAP may have been really dumb... oh well.


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

greg_burns said:


> I agree. Other than the FAP users, I don't see anyone saying (on this board) that they didn't get 9.4 on their S3/TivoHD by now.


Well, let's assume for a moment that if you have a FAP, you won't get 9.4. Why would Tivo keep that a secret? If 9.4 won't work with FAP, why not have their tech support center tell people that? Or post a notice on the Tivo site that says 9.4 only supports Tivo authorized external drives? They make it very clear only their own USB networking device is supported.

And if you have a FAP and 9.4 and aren't having problems, why would you come to this site? It's possible (although I'm a bit skeptical) that there are people with 9.4 and FAPs who aren't posting here.


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## RouterGuy (Mar 2, 2007)

Going to bed and hoping that the v9.4 Tivo fairy visits me tonight.

Must be in bed by 2 AM or he won't come


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

ronr2006 said:


> I got the same answer. Looks like disconnecting a working FAP may have been really dumb... oh well.


Or Tivo CSR's don't know what they're talking about. Why would you decide now is the time to believe them?

9.4 is turned on for everyone.

9.4 will be unavailable to people with a FAP.

Tivo will likely eventually release a version of 9.4 (e.g. 9.4a) for FAP users.

Pretty simple.

Or, you can call up and try to get them to force the 9.4 upgrade to your box. You have to be persisitent. This is similar to when I couldn't get Unbox or Swivel search on one of my Tivo's. "It's set up like all the others" the CSR said, but eventually I got to a tech support person that understood and fixed it.

Or you can wallow. Whichever you prefer.

I know that I'll have 9.4 on my FAP'd S3 by mid-week, either by simply upgrading myself (from an image from another S3/HD), or replacing the drives.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> Or Tivo CSR's don't know what they're talking about. Why would you decide now is the time to believe them?
> 
> 9.4 is turned on for everyone.
> 
> ...


Just curious, why do you think Tivo will release a version of 9.4 for FAP when they've been very clear about the non-support of non-Tivo external drives?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Gregor said:


> Just curious, why do you think Tivo will release a version of 9.4 for FAP when they've been very clear about the non-support of non-Tivo external drives?


Especially, assuming they think it is a hardware problem with the FAP. (Not a Tivo software issue).


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Gregor said:


> Just curious, why do you think Tivo will release a version of 9.4 for FAP when they've been very clear about the non-support of non-Tivo external drives?


Well, I said "likely", not "definitely".

Tivo has historically been extraordinarily tolerant of modifications, expecially those that don't break copyright rules. And the primary group of people who have FAP's are the early S3 adopters who likely spent $500-$800 on the S3, and are also likely multi-Tivo households. (Since about 3-4 months after the S3, people generally switched to the Antek + green drives.)

But it's just an assumption on my part. And one I'm not counting on, which is why I'm probably taking this opportunity to switch from 750+750 to 1TB+1TB, and dumping the FAP.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> Or Tivo CSR's don't know what they're talking about. Why would you decide now is the time to believe them?
> 
> 9.4 is turned on for everyone.
> 
> ...


 My _speculation_ is that will not happen. everyone seems to forget that TiVo quite clearly stated that while they are not closing the backdoor out of consideration for the many that already had working hardware running as Esata drives on S3 - that *those drives are unsupported hardware and there was absolutely no guarantee they would continue to be supported on a forward basis*

so it looks like the FAP will have to be taken off and then the phone tree hell of finding the right person to get the update pushed again. Sucks but unsupported is unsupported and TiVoJerry clearly defined the problems they saw with numerous FAP drives so to me it sounds reasonable for TiVo to drop the unsupported support of them and devote resources to better things.


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> My _speculation_ is that will not happen. everyone seems to forget that TiVo quite clearly stated that while they are not closing the backdoor out of consideration for the many that already had working hardware running as Esata drives on S3 - that *those drives are unsupported hardware and there was absolutely no guarantee they would continue to be supported on a forward basis*.


As I said earlier, I've talked to both CSRs and Tech support and no one had heard anything about 9.4 being blocked if you have an unsupported external drive, specifically a FAP. If a policy exists that 9.4 will not be pushed to out to any TIVO with an unsupported external drive, why don't they say so? We know that the Seagate drive appears by name in system information, so it seems to me it would be simple matter to send a message to all those Tivos saying "we're trying to push the 9.4 update to your Tivo but can't because you have an unsupported drive." In so doing, they would reduce the support calls.

I don't want to spend the money for the officially supported drive; I don't want to lose my saved recordings, but I will if not doing it means I'm blocked on all future updates. Just tell me one way or the other.


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## ronr2006 (Nov 10, 2006)

Looks like 9.4 is now downloading. When it finishes I'll connect my FAP and test it out.

EDIT (a half hour later...): Never mind. After a half an hour of downloading it then just says "Succeeded". False alarm.


RR


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

jbrennan said:


> As I said earlier, I've talked to both CSRs and Tech support and no one had heard anything about 9.4 being blocked if you have an unsupported external drive, specifically a FAP.


Apparently you are not talking to the right people. (CSR never seem to be in the loop.) Somebody must know something if they sent all you FAP users a message about incompatibility...


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

jbrennan said:


> As I said earlier, I've talked to both CSRs and Tech support and no one had heard anything about 9.4 being blocked if you have an unsupported external drive, specifically a FAP. If a policy exists that 9.4 will not be pushed to out to any TIVO with an unsupported external drive, why don't they say so? We know that the Seagate drive appears by name in system information, so it seems to me it would be simple matter to send a message to all those Tivos saying "we're trying to push the 9.4 update to your Tivo but can't because you have an unsupported drive." In so doing, they would reduce the support calls.
> 
> I don't want to spend the money for the officially supported drive; I don't want to lose my saved recordings, but I will if not doing it means I'm blocked on all future updates. Just tell me one way or the other.


Trust me, there are more people to talk to that *can fix this* for you. Just keep calling until you get the right person.

Or, try a C&DE (clear and delete everything) once you remove your FAP to see if it's something on your side preventing (i.e. they downloaded something that checked once to see if a FAP was there, and now it won't let you upgrade), or if it's something on their side (i.e. their servers have your service-number flagged not to get the update).

My drives should be here no later than Thursday, so I'll resolve this for my S3 one way or another, by trying:
1) Backup/restore my 750x2 to a new 1TBx2, and see if the update will come
2) Do a clean restore from a virgin old image to 1TBx2 and see if the update comes (if it does, then it's a client-side block, not server-side)
3) C&DE on my 750x2 to see if an update comes (same as #2, not sure I really care enough to try this one since I'll just replace the drives)
4) Restore from an already upgraded 9.4 machine (e.g. one of my other Tivo's) if the upgrade in step 2 doesn't take me to 9.4

I'll likely only do steps 2 and 4, but might try the others if I have time, or if I learn something from 2 and 4. I'll post Thursday night/Friday morning my results.


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## RouterGuy (Mar 2, 2007)

I just want to know if I can expect to get 9.4. I don't want to spend money on a new drive and lose my recordings if I don't have to.

The message on the Tivo should have been more clear (about relating to the 9.4 upgrade), or the CSR's should have some sort of answer.

Not knowing is kinda annoying.

PS I know the FAP is unsupported, and that is why I'm not mad. I'm just stating what I *want*


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Gregor said:


> Just curious, why do you think Tivo will release a version of 9.4 for FAP when they've been very clear about the non-support of non-Tivo external drives?


because in the past they have done things to help out people with hacked hardware.

Years ago they inserted drivers for third party networking cards for the S1's that required people to open the case and attach something to a diagnostic connector on the mother board.

People connecting a store bought SATA drive to an external plug is a lot less invasive that that hacking which they supported.

for months they had "unsupport" for other features too.

I dont think it's 100% but if they can figure out a work around that's fairly simple then I think they would do it


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

At this point, I think I'm going to take a wait and see approach. Every time I call (and I just got off the phone with them again to ask about my service number being "blocked" from the upgrade somehow) they tell me the same two things: FAPs have nothing to do with upgrade eligibility, and the rollout of the 9.4 upgrade is not complete. According to level 2 tech support, there are still groups that have not been authorized to receive the update.

I'm betting that if Tivo is not going to specifically state that non-supported hardware will not get upgrades, then they are adopting a wait and see approach. They'll roll out 9.4 to FAP users later in the schedule to see if there is a sudden spike in failed upgrades, support calls, etc. That may factor into a decision to specifically exclude non-supported hardware going forward.

For the record, and I hope I don't jinx myself here, I've never had any rebooting or green screen or any type of error the entire time I've had the FAP installed. (I did have one evening a couple weeks back where the Tivo rebooted itself three or four times during a thunderstorm.)

I didn't get the message about having an unsupported drive attached that some people have referenced. Does anyone have the exact wording of that message?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> Trust me, there are more people to talk to that *can fix this* for you. Just keep calling until you get the right person.
> 
> Or, try a C&DE (clear and delete everything) once you remove your FAP to see if it's something on your side preventing (i.e. they downloaded something that checked once to see if a FAP was there, and now it won't let you upgrade), or if it's something on their side (i.e. their servers have your service-number flagged not to get the update).
> 
> ...


it's been years since i played around with hacking, but is it possible to get the downloaded software from a "good" tivo and then have the "bad" tivo install it. I seem to recall with the directivos that one could get "slices" and do such a thing?


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> it's been years since i played around with hacking, but is it possible to get the downloaded software from a "good" tivo and then have the "bad" tivo install it. I seem to recall with the directivos that one could get "slices" and do such a thing?


Probably, but I'm not talking hacking at all (no real need to do that anymore with everything Tivo has added).

I'm just talking:
- mfsbackup a good Tivo S3/HD with 9.4
- mfsrestore to a new drive pair
- Install in former FAP'd S3
- C&DE (have to do this since the service numbers don't match)
- Enjoy (and forget about all the lost programming, or TTG it before starting)

Shouldn't take more than an hour or so.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

greg_burns said:


> Honestly, I can't imagine they will not push 9.4 regardless. Is there a precedent to not receiving an update because of hardware?


There's lots of speculation in this thread, so let me chime in...

Yes, everyone will be getting 9.4.

No, not everyone has 9.4 yet. It's still going out.

Seagate FreeAgent Pro drives have had reported issues going back over multiple releases, and the number of calls we've received has grown over time. Although their use is completely unsupported, customers can still call in when they have an issue with that drive. That's a costly and frustrating call for everyone, as there's nothing we can do to help.

Our engineers investigated what was going on here (even though the drive is unsupported), and Jerry shared some of the results. It's not a software issue, it's an issue with those drives - they don't play nicely with our systems.

As we now had more definitive information, we felt it appropriate to let our customers who use those drives know that there is a potential reliability issue. Hence the message.

Everyone will be getting 9.4. There's nothing in our software to block you from using a Seagate FreeAgent Pro drive, if you're using one today, you may continue to use it. But we have identified that you're more than likely going to have a problem eventually if you use that drive.

There is no plan to do special workarounds or builds to support an unsupported drive (that would change the definition of unsupported, eh?). All we can do is communicate clearly and proactively as we have information to share. And the information we have is - you'd be happier with a different drive.

Note that we've also communicated with the various upgrade companies out there regarding our findings, and they've shared with us that they each have avoided using these drives for the same reasons.

Cheers,
Pony


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> There's lots of speculation in this thread, so let me chime in...
> 
> Yes, everyone will be getting 9.4.
> 
> No, not everyone has 9.4 yet. It's still going out.


AMEN! Finally a definitive answer and it's what I suspected was true.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

jbrennan said:


> At this point, I think I'm going to take a wait and see approach. Every time I call (and I just got off the phone with them again to ask about my service number being "blocked" from the upgrade somehow) they tell me the same two things: FAPs have nothing to do with upgrade eligibility, and the rollout of the 9.4 upgrade is not complete. According to level 2 tech support, there are still groups that have not been authorized to receive the update.
> 
> I'm betting that if Tivo is not going to specifically state that non-supported hardware will not get upgrades, then they are adopting a wait and see approach. They'll roll out 9.4 to FAP users later in the schedule to see if there is a sudden spike in failed upgrades, support calls, etc. That may factor into a decision to specifically exclude non-supported hardware going forward.
> 
> ...


What you're saying is the same thing. They are intentionally not upgrading FAP'd S3's right now. So there *is a list* and our FAP'd machines are on that list. Ergo, they could be taken off that list.

In any case, I choose not to relinquish control to Tivo on this matter, so I'll both succumb to their erroneous belief that FAP's are a problem, and I'll give myself 9.4 and not wait for them to take me off whatever list I'm on.

(And again, 9.4 is open to everyone, except apparently FAP users. If you buy a new TivoHD, you'll get 9.4 downloaded - the CSR's are incorrect that the big switch hasn't been flipped. However there clearly is a "do not send" list, so you could argue they are right in a twisted way, just not in the way they are communicating it.)


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

jbrennan said:


> AMEN! Finally a definitive answer and it's what I suspected was true.


Again, no different than what we've been saying all along:

- Currently, everyone except FAP users get 9.4 (and perhaps some other non-supported external drive users)

- Tivo is working to fix whatever issues they see with these drives, either technically (which TivoJerry denies) or just staging the potential support burden (to separate FAP support from general 9.4 support).

- Tivo will roll out to those of us on this do-not-upgrade list at some point

But clearly the big switch has been thrown, and only people with certain attributes aren't getting the update. This is new behavior for Tivo, and surprising behavior, frankly.

But it's all moot. Deal with this however you want. I'll deal with it by taking control of my own destiny, and not sitting around and waiting for 9.4a or Tivo to decide they feel like letting us get the software.


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## RouterGuy (Mar 2, 2007)

jbrennan said:


> I didn't get the message about having an unsupported drive attached that some people have referenced. Does anyone have the exact wording of that message?


This is the message I received 


> Subj: External Storage Drive
> From: The Tivo Team
> Date: Thur 7/31
> 
> ...


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> Again, no different than what we've been saying all along:
> 
> - Currently, everyone except FAP users get 9.4 (and perhaps some other non-supported external drive users)
> 
> ...


Are you sure you read the same post from TivoPony as I just did?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

greg_burns said:


> Are you sure you read the same post from TivoPony as I just did?


I was wondering the same thing.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

TiVoPony said:


> Note that we've also communicated with the various upgrade companies out there regarding our findings, and they've shared with us that they each have avoided using these drives for the same reasons.


One has to wonder if you've actually looked to see the frequency of problems with FAP external drives compared to any other non-supported external drive.

Based on the postings here in the TCF, all the FAP problems appear to be heat or connector related. Maybe there's some deeper technical issue as well, but there are many of us who have been using FAP's on their S3 since it first came out (like me), without a single problem.

If it were a general hardware compatibility issue, we'd all have the problem. Otherwise it's an environmental or user created issue (or the very unlikely case of a unique scenario issue - which is very unlikely given the amount of time people have been using these combos).

Anyway, I'm guessing you're not being totally honest/open, and that all identified FAP S3's are on a list to get the update at the tail end, and you'll open up that group at some point in the future, but it's not open now.

(It's misleading as you've posted, implying that it's just luck that not a single FAP S3 has received 9.4, except perhaps beta testers.)


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> (It's misleading as you've posted, implying that it's just luck that not a single FAP S3 has received 9.4, except perhaps beta testers.)


Could be some truth to that. But it will come! Just need to be patient.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> Are you sure you read the same post from TivoPony as I just did?


Yes. He's a good marketing guy. Everything he said fully supports that the FAP users are on a hold-list. We'll eventually get it, but we're on hold for now.

If you've ever worked for a company that knows how to spin things, it was pretty clear what he was saying by what he didn't say, especially in the clear context of this thread.

In any case, do you seriously believe that it's just coincidence that not a single FAP S3 has received 9.4 yet, when as far as we can tell everyone else has, including newly purchased TivoHD's?


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> (It's misleading as you've posted, implying that it's just luck that not a single FAP S3 has received 9.4, except perhaps beta testers.)


Where did he say any such thing?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Langree said:


> Where did he say any such thing?


Well he didn't, it was _implied_.  I think AbMagFab is probably right. To the back of the line with ya all! But yeah, I thought the switch was thrown...

Maybe it can only do so many a day?


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> Could be some truth to that. But it will come! Just need to be patient.


Patience is waiting for the list to open up. But when 3 of 4 Tivo HD/S3's in my house have 9.4 but one doesn't (and it's the main one in my HT), it's annoying. Especially when the reason, as posted, seems to be punishing everyone for a handful of people who (I believe) just didn't adequately install their FAP's (i.e not enough ventillation, no UPS, bad cable, etc.).

Anyway, I'm not one to cede control to someone else when I don't have to, so I won't. I'll upgrade myself this week, and take the opportunity to increase my storage by 33% (which I've wanted to do for a while, this just gives me the reason to do it).

If you have patience, that might be the better path to take (unless there is a new, real technical problem with the FAP's and Tivo S3's introduced in 9.4.)


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> In any case, do you seriously believe that it's just coincidence that not a single FAP S3 has received 9.4 yet, when as far as we can tell everyone else has, including newly purchased TivoHD's?


Again, how do you know "not a single FAP S3 has recieved 9.4 yet"? and going by other threads here not everyone else has 9.4 yet. Some have recently stated they are still under 9.3.

Do not cofuse facts with the way you want to spin things.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> One has to wonder if you've actually looked to see the frequency of problems with FAP external drives compared to any other non-supported external drive.
> 
> Based on the postings here in the TCF, all the FAP problems appear to be heat or connector related. Maybe there's some deeper technical issue as well, but there are many of us who have been using FAP's on their S3 since it first came out (like me), without a single problem.
> 
> ...


have 2 s3's.

got FAP's for both as soon as esate was found active.

One had rebooting issues - tivo checked my logs and said it was the extrenal drive. I thought it was hogwash as I thought bad drive meant pixilation. But Figured to get my warrenty swap I'd have to unhook FAP to show them. Turned out they were completely correct. That FAP was causing reboots on my tivo and as soon as I unhooked it all was fine.

one was fine, the other apparently had the issue. So it's not universal apparently. Bought both drives same time same store- so likely same batch. Got both drives the same "correct" cable. Both drives were out in the open without any heat issues (in fact the "good" one is located in my master bedroom closet without vents which is warmer by far in the summer then the living room where the "bad drive was".)

I too thought the diagnoses was hogwash but unhooking the FAP and replacing it with a new drive in and antec case with the same cable worked fine. So I think they may be on to something- might be just a higher percentage of failures with FAPS then other combo's


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> have 2 s3's.
> 
> got FAP's for both as soon as esate was found active.
> 
> ...


That could just be a bad drive. And perhaps FAPs have a higher failure rate. But if the FAP is working now, it's silly to put us on the end of the list. It's also misleading to say the FAPs *cause* more problems (every drive eventually fails). Perhaps they fail more than other drives, but if they haven't failed now, the upgrade won't create a problem (that whole partition switch thing happens on the internal drive, not the external drive).

Anyway, I'm fine with a higher failure rate issue. But it's a weird reaction (and annoying) for Tivo to put us all in the corner together while everyone else goes outside to play.


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

AbMagFab said:


> But it's a weird reaction (and annoying) for Tivo to put us all in the corner together while everyone else goes outside to play.


Nothing in TivoPony's post implies that FAP users are on a list. You are drawing a conclusion from the perhaps 10-15 people participating in this thread who have FAPs and no 9.4 upgrade. I suspected that Tivo might have done this because it makes sense to roll out the upgrade to configs that are more likely to cause problems last. But TivoPony said not all users have been authorized, so I think my suspicion is unfounded. And the tech support reps and CSRs I talked to said things that lead me to believe that the upgrade is being rolled out by regions.

It also makes sense that new Tivos get the update immediately. The first time it connects, it has to say, hey, I'm a new Tivo, is my software up to date? And the server says, no, it's not. Here you go. Heck, I bought a Playstation 3 over the weekend and the first thing it did was update to the latest software.

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, I think, or perhaps it was another thread on the FreeAgent Pro drive, the issue with the drive appears to be that it writes slower than the Tivo can handle, and that appears to be causing problems for some Tivos. As I said, I have not had any problems with reboots or drive not connected problems.

Finally, if there were such a list, why not just be upfront and say, hey, you have an unsupported config. We're going to roll you out last or later than the rest because we can't be sure that if we upgrade you and you have problems, the drive or the upgrade is to blame. That's the price you pay for an unsupported config. In fact, I'm surprised Tivo isn't doing that.


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## Alcatraz (Nov 22, 2000)

AbMagFab said:


> Anyway, I'm fine with a higher failure rate issue. But it's a weird reaction (and annoying) for Tivo to put us all in the corner together while everyone else goes outside to play.


Even if having a FAP makes you a "special needs" kid and this alleged delay gives you enough time to put your helmet on before playing with the rest of the kids?

Sorry...the analogy just kinda jumped out and I couldn't stop it!


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

jbrennan said:


> Nothing in TivoPony's post implies that FAP users are on a list.


Actually,



TiVoPony said:


> As we now had more definitive information, we felt it appropriate to let our customers who use those drives know that there is a potential reliability issue. Hence the message.


 The only way to accomplish this without sending the message to everyone is to keep a list of FAP users. Unless people without FAP drives have gotten this message, it seems clear that Tivo is indeed tracking FAP users. I have no problem with this, and it seems like good common sense for them to do so. I don't see what all the fuss is about regarding this part of the issue.

thank you TiVoPony for the detailed response!


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Probably not hard to track, our systems show what external storage we have connected.


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

S3, you are correct. I mean to say that nothing in the post implies that FAP users are on a list to be upgraded last.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

jbrennan said:


> S3, you are correct. I mean to say that nothing in the post implies that FAP users are on a list to be upgraded last.


Sounds like it's time for a poll.

*Do you have a FAP and 9.4 yet?*

Anybody feel like starting one?


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> Sounds like it's time for a poll.
> 
> *Do you have a FAP and 9.4 yet?*
> 
> Anybody feel like starting one?


Well, that just invites false votes... Given the title of this thread, and no posting to the contrary (except one beta tester), I think it's pretty clear that, at least in this forum, no one with a FAP has 9.4 yet.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> There's Seagate FreeAgent Pro drives have had reported issues going back over multiple releases, and the number of calls we've received has grown over time. Although their use is completely unsupported, customers can still call in when they have an issue with that drive. That's a costly and frustrating call for everyone, as there's nothing we can do to help
> .Cheers,
> Pony





AbMagFab said:


> That could just be a bad drive. And perhaps FAPs have a higher failure rate. But if the FAP is working now, it's silly to put us on the end of the list. It's also misleading to say the FAPs *cause* more problems (every drive eventually fails). Perhaps they fail more than other drives, but if they haven't failed now, the upgrade won't create a problem (that whole partition switch thing happens on the internal drive, not the external drive).
> 
> Anyway, I'm fine with a higher failure rate issue. But it's a weird reaction (and annoying) for Tivo to put us all in the corner together while everyone else goes outside to play.


was there a clear message that 9.4 did not install becasue of FAP drive? I have not seen it in this thread.

All I have seen is the actual message posted simply saying FAP drives are not a good idea, with no mention of 9.4 in the message at all.

and then the very clear message from TiVoPony that indeed they do have a higher fail rate with FAP than others and that the fail rate is growing. Also the clear message, again, that esata other than the TiVo one are not supported by TiVo adn you are on your own if you do have problems.

Your course of action to replace the FAP seems well advised and I am still not sure exactly what it is TiVo is doing other than looking out for the customer and trying to avoid costly support hassles.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Your course of action to replace the FAP seems well advised and I am still not sure exactly what it is TiVo is doing other than looking out for the customer and trying to avoid costly support hassles.


It's clear they are delaying rolling out 9.4 to people with FAP drives. They have every right to do this, of course, but it's annoying nonetheless.

IMO, you (not you specifically) are putting your head in the sand if you think it's just a coincidence that no one with a FAP has received 9.4 yet, when even brand new machines are getting 9.4, and every other machine in houses with a FAP have 9.4.

Again, I'm not saying Tivo doesn't have a right to do this, but it bugs me that they are doing it, especially for people that have never reported a problem with their FAP.

In philosophical terms, I'm a rationalist, so empirical evidence is what defines truth to me. And all evidence clearly points to S3 + FAP = no 9.4 (for now).


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

AbMagFab said:


> It's clear they are delaying rolling out 9.4 to people with FAP drives. They have every right to do this, of course, but it's annoying nonetheless.


I still think this is a poor sample size to work from. I count 10 distinct users on this thread who have stated they have a FAP and no 9.4. I count another three whose comments imply they have a FAP and have not gotten 9.4. That's a total of 13 people. A few other people have made comments, but I can't tell if they have FAPs and no upgrade.

Not trying to bust anyone's chops or even defend Tivo if they have decided to move us to the back of the line: I'm just pointing out that it's not clear Tivo is doing anything if you have a FAP.  13 people is not enough to draw a conclusion.

Compare this to another problem I'm having: I'm in North Jersey and have Fios, and since Fios redid their channel lineup, my guide data is wrong. When I called this in to Tivo, the CSR told me they are aware of the problem and have been getting hundreds and hundreds of calls. So from that I can assume that *if* you have Fios *and* a Tivo *and* live in the greater New York area, your guide data is almost certainly f****d up. On the other hand, I cannot state with any confidence that if you a FAP, you will be at the bottom of the upgrade list based on a sample size of 13 people.

EDIT: And now that I think of it, the only reason I even know about the FAP/9.4 issue is because I came here looking for something about the FIOS issue. So there may be no posts from people with a FAP and 9.4 because they aren't having any problems at all with their Tivo.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I think it's completely logical for Tivo to withold 9.4 from FAP users.
Tivo releases the software in stages so they can guage problems from customer support calls.

Just my speculation, but FAP users are last on the ''list'' because Tivo expects that those units will probably generate the most calls, and they want to weed out any problems from units with no drive (or one NOT known to cause problems) attached first.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

AbMagFab said:


> Does WinMFS copy 2-drives to 2-drives yet?


Yes.

More...


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

jbrennan said:


> I still think this is a poor sample size to work from. I count 10 distinct users on this thread who have stated they have a FAP and no 9.4. I count another three whose comments imply they have a FAP and have not gotten 9.4. That's a total of 13 people. A few other people have made comments, but I can't tell if they have FAPs and no upgrade.
> 
> Not trying to bust anyone's chops or even defend Tivo if they have decided to move us to the back of the line: I'm just pointing out that it's not clear Tivo is doing anything if you have a FAP. 13 people is not enough to draw a conclusion.
> 
> ...


More noticable is the 100% lack of any posts of people wih a FAP and 9.4. That's a lot more indicative of the issue, especially since this thread has been up top for a few days now.

In any case, I agree it's in their right (although it would be nice if they were a little more up front about it).


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## ctcraig (Mar 16, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> More noticable is the 100% lack of any posts of people wih a FAP and 9.4. That's a lot more indicative of the issue, especially since this thread has been up top for a few days now.
> 
> In any case, I agree it's in their right (although it would be nice if they were a little more up front about it).


Well for what it's worth I have a Tivo HD that DID get the 9.4 update and a S3 with a FAP that has NOT gotten the update.

Cheers

Chuck


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

Add me to the list of people with a FAP Drive and no 9.4 update. I did get the message about my drive not being compatible, yadda yadda yadda. Unless I'm having major problems I really don't see myself replacing my drive any time soon. If they push 9.4 down and things blow up, I'll order a new "approved" drive for over night delivery!


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## jakflash (Feb 5, 2003)

greg_burns said:


> Other than the FAP users, I don't see anyone saying (on this board) that they didn't get 9.4 on their S3/TivoHD by now.


Actually my THD got 9.4 a couple days ago but my S3 (no FAP) has not gotten 9.4 yet.


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## ronr2006 (Nov 10, 2006)

jbrennan said:


> I still think this is a poor sample size to work from. I count 10 distinct users on this thread who have stated they have a FAP and no 9.4. I count another three whose comments imply they have a FAP and have not gotten 9.4. That's a total of 13 people. A few other people have made comments, but I can't tell if they have FAPs and no upgrade.


Then there's me who disconnected my FAP last Saturday morning and still have no 9.4 (after probably 30 connects).

RR


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

FAP750 and apparently no 9.4. Of course, I did not know there was a 9.4. I did come looking about comments about the Tivo Message I got last week but then forgot about until I saw it listed again tonight.

I've had the FAP attached at least a year. I'm not sure how to check except searching these threads for when I might have mentioned it - I did have a cable problem initially but nothing wrong since then (knock on the wooden cabinet that it and the tivo and the audio receiver and the dvd player are all heating up in!!!!)


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## conner911 (Nov 27, 2006)

I also have a Tivo HD that DID get the 9.4 update and a S3 with a FAP that has NOT gotten the update.


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## URPREY (Sep 12, 2003)

ctcraig said:


> Well for what it's worth I have a Tivo HD that DID get the 9.4 update and a S3 with a FAP that has NOT gotten the update.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Chuck


Same here.


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## masterwick (Feb 10, 2006)

conner911 said:


> I also have a Tivo HD that DID get the 9.4 update and a S3 with a FAP that has NOT gotten the update.


Ditto. Plus I have another S3 without FAP that got the update.


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## mtuckman (Jun 13, 2007)

And just to add to the list, one more S3 with FAP and no 9.4


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## BagNDrag (May 22, 2004)

Count me towards the "S3 with FAP and NO 9.4"


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## Green5051 (Sep 19, 2006)

Me too.....S3 with FAP and NO 9.4. I've been forcing connections each morning, but still nothing


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## jweek (Nov 26, 2005)

BagNDrag said:


> Count me towards the "S3 with FAP and NO 9.4"


me too.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

No 9.4 for me - but that's fine - will give me time to get a 1TB drive and consolidate my internal and external drive onto it.

I've been getting more and more pixelation, and I have been suspecting the external drive - this just confirms it as a really high possibility...


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## naclone (Feb 12, 2002)

i've been running a FAP 750 for nearly a year without incident.

last week I restarted the unit to solve a networking issue and got a "cannot find external drive" message. after a couple power downs and restarts everything was normal.

then i got the FAP warning everyone else got.

just now I got a random restart followed by the following message:

"The DVR has detected a serious problem and is now attempting to fix it. This will take about three hours. Please do not unplug or restert the DVR."

it actually only took a few minutes and then restarted and everything is normal again now.

so, uh, i guess this is the "unreliability" i was promised?


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## blicken (Nov 25, 2001)

My S3 had a 750GB FAP on it... over the weekend, I consolidated into a single 1TB internal drive using MFSLive, but still no update, even with occasional forcing of connection. I'm not too worried about never getting 9.4, but it would be really nice to try out the new features.


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## TiVoPO (Jun 11, 2004)

mtuckman said:


> And just to add to the list, one more S3 with FAP and no 9.4


Same here. The real bummer is Phoenix is going to roll out SDV very soon. And 9.4 is required for the forthcoming tuning adapter.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

blicken said:


> My S3 had a 750GB FAP on it... over the weekend, I consolidated into a single 1TB internal drive using MFSLive, but still no update, even with occasional forcing of connection. I'm not too worried about never getting 9.4, but it would be really nice to try out the new features.


This further enforces the "list" issue.

I think by now we have enough evidence that Tivo has put the FAP users on a list not to receive the update (yet).

TivoPony really did himself a disservice by coming here any trying to spin this like it wasn't the case. He didn't directly lie, but he sure did intentionally mislead. He would have been much better served by simply admitting that FAP users are being held back to control (what Tivo perceives) as a potential support issue.


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## RouterGuy (Mar 2, 2007)

I seem to be more positive about the whole thing. We all know that Tivo doesn't support external drives other then MyDRV Extender. 

So what do they do when they notice a problem with FAP's? They take extra time with an update to see IF they can fix the problem via software. Which is best effort support, and best effort support is better then no support at all.

They can't come out and say they are supporting FAP's because that would set the wrong expectations, not only for FAP's but everything else people do to/with their Tivo's that is unsupported.

So I'm happy that I haven't had trouble with my FAP
I'm happy that Tivo understands there is some problems out there
I'm happy that Tivo is making an effort to fix those problem even though they don't have to
I'm happy that Tivo has told us as much as they could 
I'm happy that Tivo has set the expectation that everyone will get 9.4

Would I have liked to get 9.4 on 8/1, Yes? But I'm happy to wait.


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## masterwick (Feb 10, 2006)

RouterGuy said:


> So what do they do when they notice a problem with FAP's? They take extra time with an update to see IF they can fix the problem via software. Which is best effort support, and best effort support is better then no support at all.


Where did you get the impression they are trying to fix a supposed hardware issue with a software fix? Even TivoPony says:


> There is no plan to do special workarounds or builds to support an unsupported drive (that would change the definition of unsupported, eh?). All we can do is communicate clearly and proactively as we have information to share. And the information we have is - you'd be happier with a different drive.


Not that your positive attitude is wrong or anything, I just think your expectations with a software fix maybe misplaced. But we can all hope....


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## RouterGuy (Mar 2, 2007)

masterwick said:


> Where did you get the impression they are trying to fix a supposed hardware issue with a software fix?


It seems fairly clear to me that they have not upgraded Tivo's with FAP's for some reason. I guess I'm assuming it is to fix some problem even if they can't say so.

But you've made me think. Another possiablity is that every upgrade comes with a incressed load on their helpdesk. And they might know something we don't about FAP and 9.4 and expect that to incress the helpdesk load even more. So they are spacing out the FAP upgrades from everyone else to even out the load on their helpdesk.

Fixing something or managing their helpdesk load is fine by me.


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

Well, the circumstantial evidence that perhaps Tivo is holding back the 9.4 update if you have an unsupported external drive is a bit stronger, but again, if this is the case, what reason would Tivo for keeping quiet about it? Just let us know, for heaven's sake. Tell us we won't see the update for another week, or the end of August or never, and we can then make informed decisions about ditching the FAPS or whatever.

I have to say that after five or six years of Tivo goodness, the honeymoon is starting to end for me. There's this whole 9.4 update/FAP nonsense. There's the whole FIOS channel realignment/incorrect guide data issue which is still unresolved in Northern NJ. There's the whole phantom channel/can't add or drop channels from the guide issue. All three are affecting me, and when I called in to tech support, most of the time the CSRs are ignorant of these issues: it's as if I was the first person ever to call in to report a problem with Tivo. 

I'm beginning to feel like others who have commented on these boards: the the primary purpose of Tivo is becoming a data gathering tool to generate revenue by selling data to advertising and media companies. All the end user features are secondary and less important.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

RouterGuy said:


> It seems fairly clear to me that they have not upgraded Tivo's with FAP's for some reason. I guess I'm assuming it is to fix some problem even if they can't say so.
> 
> But you've made me think. Another possiablity is that every upgrade comes with a incressed load on their helpdesk. And they might know something we don't about FAP and 9.4 and expect that to incress the helpdesk load even more. So they are spacing out the FAP upgrades from everyone else to even out the load on their helpdesk.
> 
> Fixing something or managing their helpdesk load is fine by me.


TivoPony specifically said they aren't making a software update. I don't think he out-and-out lies, so I believe him.

But he didn't admit to locking out the FAP users. He didn't directly lie, but frankly, to me, misleading as much as he did is the same as a lie (I was brought up that way, sorry).

In any case, Tivo certainly has the right to block us all. But I don't see how anyone could be fine with that. Why should I be punished for adding a FAP, if it works just fine for me? I've never called their technical support. If I have a problem with it, I'll change it out. If lots of people call, just tell them it's unsupported or something.

I think it's horrible business practice to simply lock us out of an upgrade (for now) without telling us openly, and without giving us the option (e.g. "we can upgrade you, but if it breaks, it's your problem").

Very very lame of Tivo, and TivoPony, IMO. For the first time in forever, it will make me think twice about buying another Tivo or recommending one to friends.

(I have 6, plus I pay for 6 more for my family across 3 accounts, and I've converted easily 20+ people to Tivo over the years, who in turn have converted many more. That's how Tivo works... but they are screwing up this time around with the people who are at the core of the word-of-mouth marketing. Really dumb move.)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> TivoPony specifically said they aren't making a software update. I don't think he out-and-out lies, so I believe him.
> 
> But he didn't admit to locking out the FAP users. He didn't directly lie, but frankly, to me, misleading as much as he did is the same as a lie (I was brought up that way, sorry).
> 
> ...


I think the timeframe is a major factor here.

if come January 1, 9.4 isn't out for FAP folks then that's one thing. If come tomorrow they roll it out that's another.

Also- has everyone without a fap gotten 9.4? I dont have a problem either if they took their normal 'random' list and happened to reorder it so that all us FAP's wind up in the last normally scheduled batch.

I think we've gotten much more "official" info from TivoPony then is normal for a company with several million customers.

So I wont crucify them just yet.

Myself- I'd actually be much happier if they would just have an approved 1tb external drive then I'd gladly dump my remaining FAP. I dont want to move backwards in terms of storage space and I dont want to wind up in this mess again where the drive i buy winds up having problems and needs to get replaced again. I understood when i added the drive it was unsupported, but please give me a realistic supported option.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> I think the timeframe is a major factor here.
> 
> if come January 1, 9.4 isn't out for FAP folks then that's one thing. If come tomorrow they roll it out that's another.
> 
> ...


That's the point - we simply don't know.

In terms of everyone else, given that all new TivoHD's get 9.4, I think it's a safe bet that it's been turned on for everyone else at this point. Also, the YouTube area was synchronized with 9.4, and that's now presumed on for everyone (go to YouTube and note the message you receive on your FAP S3).

Bottom line is, if they plan to give it to us next week, then say so. I think the vague silence around the FAP rollout is the problem.

And they seem to forget that most of the FAP users are the people who spent $800 on a S3 when it first came out, and are the early adopters and the ones who are historically Tivo's most rabid supporters. Why mess with us this way?

Unfortunately, they are manipulating many of us (me at least) into doing exactly what they want - replacing my FAP. I have half a mind to keep it and restore from a 9.4 image just to prove a point! 

No matter how this plays out though, shame on Tivo for the poor and intentionally misleading communications, and for screwing over (at least for now) their early adopters and strongest supporters.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

you probably have a point that some word about timeframe from them would be good to have.

But I'm not ready at the moment to assume the worst that it's going to take months or years. And I really dont see how any one has been 'screwed over' at this point. What's the big deal- havn't been able to watch you tube videos for 5 days? That's the only thing missing. There are a bunch of nice tweaks to existing stuff, but i can still find the guide if i need it, i can still make 10 buttons presses to turn CC on or off, I can still play or delete everything in my npl, just with more keypresses.

IN the past they seem to have done the right thing, in fact I think they are doing the right thing now but not just telling us all to go screw and disconnect the unsupported hardware they warned us way back when, and so i assume they will be reasonable in the amount of time they take to roll it out now that TivoPony said we are all getting it.

obviously 'reasonable' is likely to be different for everyone. For me a few weeks even is no big deal. But my line of reasonableness stops at the point where the fall tv season starts. IF I need to get a new drive then I need to do it before the new shows start so when i nuke my now playing list I'm not nuking valuable new content. Not sure what others think- but that's my thoughts on timeframe.


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## masterwick (Feb 10, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> Myself- I'd actually be much happier if they would just have an approved 1tb external drive then I'd gladly dump my remaining FAP. I dont want to move backwards in terms of storage space and I dont want to wind up in this mess again where the drive i buy winds up having problems and needs to get replaced again. I understood when i added the drive it was unsupported, but please give me a realistic supported option.


This is the same dillema I am in. If my unsupported FAP is no good (with or without 9.4), then I would be willing to 'upgrade' to a supported 1TB, but not 'downgrade' to a supported 500mb drive. Also, I would like to know sooner then later if my FAP works with 9.4. If they release 9.4 to FAP users at the beginning of the TV fall season and my FAP fails, then that will really piss me off when I could have known earlier and not lost all my recordings.

So I will give it a week or two for 9.4. If 9.4+FAP is not released by then I will go ahead and upgrade to another unsupported 1TB drive since there is not a supported 1TB drive.


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## TiVoPO (Jun 11, 2004)

My FAP hasn't given me any issues, and I wouldn't mind upgrading it to a 1 (or more) TB drive, but it seems doing so does not enable the upgrade.

And the one killer feature I absolutely must have is the tuning adapter/resolver upgrade before Phoenix rolls it out. I am one of the fortunate few here in Phoenix with S cards that don't cause me any issues. But that is only a matter of time. And I keep hearing that the time is now September. I am quaking in my boots!!

So, is there a way to image the FAP and lay it on another drive that will work with TiVo S3?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

TiVoPO said:


> So, is there a way to image the FAP and lay it on another drive that will work with TiVo S3?


That is what is being asked over here...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6545527#post6545527


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## Grey Griffin (May 24, 2007)

I just received the 9.4 update. I'm not in the exact same boat as everyone else. I disconnected my FAP on 7/31 after having problems with it.


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## nandopr (Jun 6, 2003)

I received the 9.4 update. My external HD is a FAP. I forced a connection 30 minutes ago.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

As I'd said earlier this week, the rollout of 9.4 was still in process. We do appreciate that some of you want the new features immediately, hopefully the wait as we finish the rollout hasn't been too frustrating.

We're now at the end of the rollout, if you don't have 9.4 yet you should in the next day or two.

And I must say to those of you who advocated patience - Thanks. We do our best.

Pony


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

I got it this afternoon too


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## tach32000 (Jan 28, 2004)

I disconnected my FAP a days ago, and couldn't get the 9.4 update.

Today it came through. I reconnected my FAP and have had no issues as of yet.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

TiVoPony said:


> As I'd said earlier this week, the rollout of 9.4 was still in process. We do appreciate that some of you want the new features immediately, hopefully the wait as we finish the rollout hasn't been too frustrating.
> 
> We're now at the end of the rollout, if you don't have 9.4 yet you should in the next day or two.
> 
> ...


See, sometimes the squeaky wheel does get the grease. Clearly the FAP users were on a list to get it last, and likely due to our noticing they decided to let us have it (IMO earlier than they planned).

Good news for FAP users!


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Well, I got it too, but it killed my FAP. Doesn't matter much as I am planning to replace the internal drive with a 1TB, and this actually makes it easier as I can backup/restore now from the S3 w/out a FAP, and keep all my SP and WL.

Whatever... this was still poorly handled by Tivo, especially if they intentionally kill FAP's as part of the 9.4 upgrade.

I'd be curious if anyone upgrades with a FAP attached before 9.4, and keeps it through the 9.4 upgrade?


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## Beantownbeanie (Apr 23, 2004)

I have the FAP and when I got home from work today I had the update. It is working flawlessly (so far). woo hoo.


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## TiVoPO (Jun 11, 2004)

I too have survived the 9.4 update with my FAP intact, but the youtube stuff isn't working. It still shows the screen saying I need the 9.4 software, but I have it. Any ideas? Should I reboot it?

Oops! Spoke to soon. It just kicked in. Very nice update. Glad we finally got it.


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## Rdian06 (Apr 12, 2008)

TiVoPO said:


> I too have survived the 9.4 update with my FAP intact, but the youtube stuff isn't working. It still shows the screen saying I need the 9.4 software, but I have it. Any ideas? Should I reboot it?


Force a net connect and then try again.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

TiVoPO said:


> I too have survived the 9.4 update with my FAP intact, but the youtube stuff isn't working. It still shows the screen saying I need the 9.4 software, but I have it. Any ideas? Should I reboot it?


Same problem here... looks like us FAP users are still on some list that they forgot to take us off of...

I've connected 4 times and rebooted. No YouTube love on my S3 (formally with a FAP). My other 4 TivoHD/S3's all get YouTube, including the TivoHD I installed this afternoon.


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## jbrennan (Jan 20, 2005)

My upgrade went smoothly with the FAP attached, and no problems to report. Also YouTube works fine so far.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> See, sometimes the squeaky wheel does get the grease. Clearly the FAP users were on a list to get it last, *and likely due to our noticing they decided to let us have it (IMO earlier than they planned).*
> 
> Good news for FAP users!


How many rolls of tinfoil do you go through a week?


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

I also just got the update and am not getting access to YouTube. Everything else seems to be working smoothly so far though...


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## msrolla (Feb 11, 2004)

The upgrade with the FAP 750 went through without a hitch. Now enjoying the goodness of 9.4.

I wonder if there are variations in the FAP 750 controller based on manufacture date. Mine was bought in June 2007, FWIW.

Pony - Thanks for keeping us updated. You provide a great service that's not found with most companies.


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

YouTube just started working on my FAP/S3. Very, very cool! I'd also like to thank TiVoPony again for the clear and detailed information he's posted in this thread. Official information is always preferable to page after page of unaddressed customer concern and speculation that's usually the norm on internet forums.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Langree said:


> How many rolls of tinfoil do you go through a week?


How much Kool-Aid do you drink?

Seriously, we wouldn't have gotten this upgrade this quickly without the complaining (and this board). Sometimes it works. Fortunately Tivo responded, where many companies wouldn't.

Still doesn't really excuse the original stuff, though.


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

Update last night. So far, so good. FAP750 and 9.4 are working - well, no time to test but Now Playing still shows all of my older shows..............


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo always stages the roll out of new software. Tivo has always said one of the purposes of a staged roll out is to level out support issues. TivoJerry has said there is an issue with the FreeAgentPro and tivo. A few posters, who appear to be beta users, said the same thing.

Anecdotal evidence, in this thread, suggests *tivo did the intelligent thing and upgraded the units with the problematic FAPro drives last.*

I don't have any external drive and I was upgraded less then a week ago. The units with the problematic external drives got upgraded a few days after the roll out for the "regular" units finished.

Sorry but I don't see any evidence indicating tivo has any "original" stuff to apologize for or any evidence this thread did anything to change tivo's course of action.

For years a few people have been telling us DVR designed hard drives are better. They don't continue to retry on errors. An external drive that's being used for backup purposes should retry multiple times before giving up. An external drive being used for AV applications should just skip that sector. This is the first example of problems using drives optimized for data (and file backups). Maybe it takes HD files, with an external drive, before we start to see issues.

I'm glad I replaced my internal drive, and didn't go the external drive route.



AbMagFab said:


> Seriously, we wouldn't have gotten this upgrade this quickly without the complaining (and this board). Sometimes it works. Fortunately Tivo responded, where many companies wouldn't.
> 
> Still doesn't really excuse the original stuff, though.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> How much Kool-Aid do you drink?
> 
> Seriously, we wouldn't have gotten this upgrade this quickly without the complaining (and this board). Sometimes it works. Fortunately Tivo responded, where many companies wouldn't.
> 
> Still doesn't really excuse the original stuff, though.





lew said:


> Anecdotal evidence, in this thread, suggests *tivo did the intelligent thing and upgraded the units with the problematic FAPro drives last.*
> 
> Sorry but I don't see any evidence indicating tivo has any "original" stuff to apologize for *or any evidence this thread did anything to change tivo's course of action*.


QFT

I don't know why you think this thread changed the timeline in any way.

TiVo doesn't need to come here and respond at all, yet they do, and instead of saying thank you, you pretty much call Pony and TiVo liars, then when you get the update, you claim this little ol thread and your whining pushed TiVo to do what you wanted. Claiming some sort of victory.

When fact of the matter is, the timing of when those of you with KNOWN PROBLEMATIC UNSUPPORTED external drives was most likely right where TiVo intended.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> Seriously, we wouldn't have gotten this upgrade this quickly without the complaining (and this board).


I'm sorry that you believe this to be true, as it's a false statement. The rollout was delivered per plan. It's true that some people got software before others - that's how a software rollout works.

Once again, the focus of this discussion really should be - if you're using a Seagate FreeAgent Pro drive you should strongly consider changing to something else. They're unsupported and have been demonstrated to cause reliability issues when used with our systems. We've tried to clearly communicate that information to customers using those drives via the PTCM, our call centers, as well as here on the forums.

Thanks,

Pony


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Seagate, and probably other vendors, are coming out with external drives, designed for DVR use.

I'd hope tivo is able to certify more then one vendor. Competition is likely to provide lower costs *and earlier availability of larger capacity drives.*

I want to thank you for the frank information you, and other tivo reps, provide in these forums. It's a shame some posters aren't appreciative.

I wonder if you're second guessing your decision allowing for the continued use of unsupported drives. Based on the posts here I wouldn't blame you if you decided to just take the hit once and get rid of them. Every time a poster has to replace an external drive that doesn't work you're going to wind up with support calls followed by a thread on some internet board.



TiVoPony said:


> I'm sorry that you believe this to be true, as it's a false statement. The rollout was delivered per plan. It's true that some people got software before others - that's how a software rollout works.
> 
> Once again, the focus of this discussion really should be - if you're using a Seagate FreeAgent Pro drive you should strongly consider changing to something else. They're unsupported and have been demonstrated to cause reliability issues when used with our systems. We've tried to clearly communicate that information to customers using those drives via the PTCM, our call centers, as well as here on the forums.
> 
> ...


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

Langree said:


> QFT
> 
> I don't know why you think this thread changed the timeline in any way.
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> How much Kool-Aid do you drink?
> 
> Seriously, we wouldn't have gotten this upgrade this quickly without the complaining (and this board). Sometimes it works. Fortunately Tivo responded, where many companies wouldn't.
> 
> Still doesn't really excuse the original stuff, though.


have to agree- you need a fresh roll of tinfoil.

how can you make such absolute statements?

this isn't the first time you have assumed the worst....


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> have to agree


I'm glad you agree with me!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> Still doesn't really excuse the original stuff, though.


you are right, they should have just keptt he Esata port blocked and never allowed unsupported drives.
At best they could have just shut down all unsupported drives with this release versus dealing with all the _PITA_ the FAP produced


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

I have a FAP 750GB connected to my DirecTV HR20 and it has worked fine through ALL of their software upgrades (and there have been A LOT.) I guess that settles which one is the superior unit.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

JoeyJoJo said:


> I have a FAP 750GB connected to my DirecTV HR20 and it has worked fine through ALL of their software upgrades (and there have been A LOT.) I guess that settles which one is the superior unit.


Where isthat stir the pot smiley?


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you are right, they should have just keptt he Esata port blocked and never allowed unsupported drives.
> At best they could have just shut down all unsupported drives with this release versus dealing with all the _PITA_ the FAP produced


Good point. They could have just shutdown ALL unsupported drives. My understanding is that it was left open unintentionally in the first place, It was supposed to be locked down like THD. Consider yourself lucky that Tivo is as good a company as it is and didn't take away that tidbit with a firmware update. As far as blacklists go, assuming that is correct (it really doesn't matter because), Tivo can roll out their updates in whatever order they want (I didn't get updated until last week myself on 2 completely stock THD's and you didn't hear me crying) and if you get put at the end of the line because you are using unsupported hardware they can do that. If they wanted that could block updates entirely or if they wanted they could disable your tivo while it has unsupported hardware attached. Would that be smart? Probably not, but they could do it if they wanted.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

JoeyJoJo said:


> I have a FAP 750GB connected to my DirecTV HR20 and it has worked fine through ALL of their software upgrades (and there have been A LOT.) I guess that settles which one is the superior unit.


That might explain why the HR20 is crap. They had to code to allow FAP drives to connect.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JWThiers said:


> Good point. They could have just shutdown ALL unsupported drives. My understanding is that it was left open unintentionally in the first place,


yah, it was found versus TiVo saying anything on the S3 side. Once it was being used , they could have quickly shut it down but did not and then "grandfathered" S3 to keep using other drives. Guess some people wnat more than that though.


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## masterwick (Feb 10, 2006)

I, for one, am very glad Tivo released 9.4 to FAP users. As it would appear, they were probably holding out 9.4 release to FAP to give them time to change drives and/or control the volume of calls related to drive failures. 

Now the real question begins, how many FAP+9.4 users have external drive issues related to the software update? 
From the anectdotal evidence on the forums, it appears 9.4sw puts a larger strain on external drives causing increased failures/issues.


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## sbessel (Dec 10, 2001)

I wanted to thank you all... this thread has been one of the funniest things I have read in a long time. the paranoia and 'aluminum hat people' are hilarious...
You people read way too much into all this...

I think TiVo has been exemplary in this, they have kept us informed of a potential issue with a targeted message, they have popped into this thread to let us know we will be getting the upgrade, and then we did. If they decided to stagger the roll-out based on potential issues then more power to them, yet this was never stated nor inferred.

This upgrade is really no big deal, no major enhancements, nothing like the last big upgrade. Yet many of you act like it is the end of the world that we dont have it...

Cracking my a$$ up again, thanks for the amusement and humor - I love it! :up:


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

DocNo said:


> *You, sir, are a fool.*


Most intelligent quote in this thread.

It blows my mind that we live in such a whiny society that someone could possibly rant on for that long because they can't get YouTube on their television.

awww...and your whole post was deleted.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

Da Goon said:


> Most intelligent quote in this thread.
> 
> It blows my mind that we live in such a whiny society that someone could possibly rant on for that long because they can't get YouTube on their television.
> 
> awww...and your whole post was deleted.


I wish I had seen that post, seeing as it was deleted and from your quote I bet it was a beaut.


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## JFR0317 (Nov 24, 2002)

Just got 9.4, and everything seems to be working fine - FAP750 and all.


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## Jobius (Oct 17, 2000)

I have a 750GB FAP, and I got the pop-up warning of reliability problems. The first time I saw such a problem was over the July 4 holiday, when I returned from out of town to find that the TiVo had been sitting for several days waiting for me to "reattach" my drive. Since then, I had one other power outage, and found I had to disconnect the drive, power it down, and reconnect it before TiVo would recognize it.

I noticed just last night that an HD program I was trying to FF through at 3x was slogging, playing back at about 1x but without audio. I don't know if that's a drive performance issue.

Just now, I got another brief power hit, TiVo rebooted, and it's now installing a service update (9.4, I assume). I'm hoping it still will accept the FAP when it's done, but I'm looking for alternative drives now.

Update: service update installed, FAP still functional.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

JWThiers said:


> I wish I had seen that post, seeing as it was deleted and from your quote I bet it was a beaut.


I pointed out he was a f**l twice and also pointed out he was whining like a petulant child. Apparently that wasn't good enough for the mods 

I also pointed out that he could stop trashing TivoPony's character since the software rolled out to everyone, even those of use with FAP's. I reminded him that rollouts have always been staged, and that Tivo has more subscribers and thus it isn't unreasonable to expect things to take longer.

Finally I reminded him that the external SATA port is *UNSUPPORTED*. Tivo didn't have to point out that there were problems with the FAP, they didn't have to roll out software to the FAP users - heck, as ZeoTivo pointed out they could have just shut it off for all the problems there were. But they didn't. They actually provided support for an unsupported feature - and even put up with people with unrealistic expectations.

Unfortunately for some people it's never enough - sigh....


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

DocNo said:


> I pointed out he was a f**l twice and also pointed out he was whining like a petulant child. Apparently that wasn't good enough for the mods
> 
> I also pointed out that he could stop trashing TivoPony's character since the software rolled out to everyone, even those of use with FAP's. I reminded him that rollouts have always been staged, and that Tivo has more subscribers and thus it isn't unreasonable to expect things to take longer.
> 
> ...


:up:


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

That doesn't sound too bad to me. No worse than when in the underground forum when someone wants to know how to get their tivo to control an FTA reciever. the only thing that tivo gives guide data for that an FTA reciever can recieve is dishnetwork so they are promptly told that that would be theft of service and the mud flies. but I digress...


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

Well, so far, FAP750 and Tivo 9.4 are still working. I watched my first YouTube - the duet from the Pearl Fishers. Audio quality okay, video not so great.


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## mtuckman (Jun 13, 2007)

Just upgraded to 9.4 and my FAP is still working. Haven't checked out the YouTube videos yet though.

And as far as the FAP and the problems with it, I plan on swapping it out but I don't see any reason to do so as long as it is still working...


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## blicken (Nov 25, 2001)

Just checked my S3, and the update downloaded today, so I forced a restart. I never thought it would take too long to come down. I'm about to move all my stuff, so not needing the external drive is going to be really useful in the new apartment, plus I can reuse it now for other media storage.


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## toddc (Jun 12, 2002)

I got 9.4 last night and my 750 MB FAP is working just fine.
Nice new additions to the software.
Interesting that I have 5 TiVos and the one with the 750 MB FAP is the only one with 9.4 so far.

So much for all the worrying.


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## masterwick (Feb 10, 2006)

9.4 + FAP is working just fine for me. Thanks for all the fun.


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## ctcraig (Mar 16, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> I'm sorry that you believe this to be true, as it's a false statement. The rollout was delivered per plan. It's true that some people got software before others - that's how a software rollout works.
> 
> Once again, the focus of this discussion really should be - if you're using a Seagate FreeAgent Pro drive you should strongly consider changing to something else. They're unsupported and have been demonstrated to cause reliability issues when used with our systems. We've tried to clearly communicate that information to customers using those drives via the PTCM, our call centers, as well as here on the forums.
> 
> ...


Got the 9.4 update and after a small scare when it said it didnt' see my FAP, another restart fixed all. 9.4 and YouTube.

Thanks Tivo!

Cheers
chuck


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## donaudio (Apr 1, 2002)

I got 9.4 today and Tivo said my external drive was not working. This is an FAP 750 that has been fine for over one year. Did a hard restart twice and got the same message. Then I unplugged both the Tivo and the FAP, waited a minute or two, plugged the FAP back in and then the Tivo. The Tivo then upgraded with no problems to 9.4. Hope it stays that way. Don


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

seems maybe that's the problem with the FAP's - this unrecognized problem at reboots?

I had the same thing.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> seems maybe that's the problem with the FAP's - this unrecognized problem at reboots?


It's probably your cable. Until I trimmed my eSATA cable, I would get this problem - even before 9.4.

My issue is, my pixilation and micro-blocking is getting worse  I've actually had the video freeze and the audio continue to play - I would have to ffw or jump back to get the video moving again 

I originally thought I was going to be able to get by with the FAP, but now I'm going to head over to the hard drive threads and pick out a 1TB drive to consolidate my internal and FAP onto


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> seems maybe that's the problem with the FAP's - this unrecognized problem at reboots?
> 
> I had the same thing.


It's more than that. Lots of errors reported while the drive is up and running.


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

JFR0317 said:


> Just got 9.4, and everything seems to be working fine - FAP750 and all.


+1


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## MJedi (Jun 17, 2002)

I got 9.4 on my S3+FAP on Friday, while I was at work, and the wife said the S3 rebooted itself in the middle of the Olympic Opening Ceremonies.  Gave me a scare because she said heard a clicking sound coming from it a few moments earlier, and it showing the "Acquiring channel info" when she turned it on. I ready to buy a TiVo HD right then and there. A few minutes later it came back up and continued recording. So far, so good. Only issues I've seen is the occasional pixelation/frame skips for the Olympic games I've recorded. Not sure if it's because these recordings are 4 and 8 hours long. I haven't watched regular SD shows and shorter HD shows yet. So is this a symptom of the unreliability of the FAP on 9.4?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

The showing "Acquiring channel info" with pinwheel for awhile after reboot is normal with cablecards if you try and view live TV.


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## toddc (Jun 12, 2002)

MJedi said:


> Only issues I've seen is the occasional pixelation/frame skips for the Olympic games I've recorded.


I have had pixelation, but I am not sure it is related to the FAP.
If so, it can be tolerated on my part.
BTW, I also got the "message" from TiVo on my S3 with a FAP 1GB and I it is also fine.

Anyone know about 9.4 on the Series 2?


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

FWIW I watched and recorded the opening ceremonies via OTA in HD and had no reboots or other issues. I only use OTA though, so perhaps cablecards increase the likelihood of problems (?)


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## URPREY (Sep 12, 2003)

I STILL have no 9.4 on my S3 with FAP. I'm starting to lose hope.


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## Laserfan (Apr 25, 2000)

Regarding the Olympics:


toddc said:


> I have had pixelation, but I am not sure it is related to the FAP. If so, it can be tolerated on my part.


No FAP connected here, just OTA S3 and there was some minor break-up and pixelation thruout the Opening Ceremonies, mainly on high-complexity stuff so I think all the intermediate technology just had trouble keeping up.

Lots of blockiness on action sequences since but doesn't distract from the enjoyment. I don't think any Tivo problems are involved.


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## URPREY (Sep 12, 2003)

On the phone with TiVo right now to ask about the update - I can't believe it hasn't rolled out to my S3 yet. They've been sending emails pushing the YouTube features for over a week now.

[edit] They told me there was nothing they could do and suggested I just keep forcing connections [/edit]

Not a good solution IMHO.


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## jkeese01 (Dec 17, 2005)

TiVo rolled out the new 9.4 with youTube to my series3 and it has the 750 FAP. Everything worked ok until a couple of days ago.

Now I get the error message that there is no external hard drive connected to the TiVo box.

The drive seemed to have failed. Connected the FAP to a laptop and the laptop didn't see it.

It lasted 11 months on this TiVo.

------------------------------
Hi MichaelK,

Yes, Tried to reboot the TiVo several times. The divorced the TiVo and tried to do a new setup. Still would not see the drive. Returned this FAP 750. 

Bought a new Freeagent 1TB drive and it connected. But now after a few weeks it has given the message that there is no external drive connected about 3 times in the last week. I reboot, get the green screen of death, then it starts working about after about 15 minutes.

I wonder if this new drive is about to go out or is this a problem with it not being an "approved" TiVo external drive?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

did you try rebooting on the tivo?

Just keep the FAP connected and pull the tivo plug and reboot. That's what works for me when the tivo doesnt see the fap.

also- DONT boot with the drive connected to the pc. I'm not sure at all what happens to external drives but windows under some conditions will munge a tivo drive that's installed internally upon boot.


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## DVRaholic (Mar 28, 2004)

I have been using a Freeagent 1TB drive on my Directv HR20 for the last 6 months without any problems whatsoever.

I just switched over to Fios last week, (HD is Much better then Directv by the way  

I bought a Series 3 instead of the TivoHD because I knew could attach the Freeagent 1TB drive.

Well to my horror after about 30 minutes after I attached the drive I had a reboot. Figured it was just a fluke

Then last night i had another reboot after pausing a recorded show for about 5 minutes. Figured it could be the drive because it is Used (just 6 months) even though never a problem with the HR20

I then searched these forums about any issues with Freeagent drives and found this thread.

I just ordered my New 1TB external for Series 3 from Weaknees, 
hopefully it will work as good as the freeagent did on the HR20


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## jkeese01 (Dec 17, 2005)

Bought a new FreeAgent 1TB drive and it connected. But after a few weeks my Series3 TiVo started given the message that there is no external drive connected. 

I wonder if this new drive is about to die or is this a problem with it not being an "approved" TiVo external drive?

For the last 3 mornings, I wake up and see the message "External storage missing" on my Series3. The drive light is still on like the FAP is working.

I shutdown the drive, unplug the drive, unplug the TiVo. After a short time, I plug in the drive and start it up. Then plug in the TiVo. After displaying the green screen for about 15 minutes, the TiVo is back up and running.

The drive is on top of the cabinet holding the audio/video equipment, so there should not be a heat problem.

Do I need a fan to blow on the drive for additional cooling? 

Thanks.


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