# New TiVo Ad on Main Menu? Yikes it's big!



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Anyone get the new "Star" Experience Australia vacation ads? It's about twice as big as before, enclosed in a border, with a huge graphic next to it.

I'm all for ads, but this is getting ridiculous...


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> Yikes it's big!


That's what she said!


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## Luke M (Nov 5, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Anyone get the new "Star" Experience Australia vacation ads? It's about twice as big as before, enclosed in a border, with a huge graphic next to it.
> 
> I'm all for ads, but this is getting ridiculous...


I need a spam filter for my TivoHD!

The Series 1 users are sitting pretty, since Tivo doesn't update the old software with the latest "features".


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Thankfully, I have my remote programmed to take me directly to the Recorded List so I rarely see these ads.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> Thankfully, I have my remote programmed to take me directly to the Recorded List so I rarely see these ads.


Heh, I guess you haven't been following the other ad threads...


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## DaveLessnau (Nov 10, 2000)

"Yikes it's big!"

Yep. That's exactly what I said.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

DaveLessnau said:


> "Yikes it's big!"
> 
> Yep. That's exactly what I said.


That's a very cleaned up version of what I said.

It actually isn't bigger than the ones that have appeared there for some time - just a lot more obnoxiously glaring IMHO


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Thankfully, I have my remote programmed to take me directly to the Recorded List so I rarely see these ads.


FYI: I saw this ad when I went into one of my GROUPS of recordings, at the bottom.

SO having a button bring you directly into the Recorded list will NOT save you, if you use groups.

Yikes x2!


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

blacknoi said:


> FYI: I saw this ad when I went into one of my GROUPS of recordings, at the bottom.
> 
> SO having a button bring you directly into the Recorded list will NOT save you, if you use groups.
> 
> Yikes x2!


If that's the case I am going to seriously reconsider my plans to buy 2 TivoHD or S3 units in the somewhat near future. I never really minded the star ads in the main menu, but if they are putting things in my recordings list I'm going to be annoyed.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

kb7sei said:


> If that's the case I am going to seriously reconsider my plans to buy 2 TivoHD or S3 units in the somewhat near future. I never really minded the star ads in the main menu, but if they are putting things in my recordings list I'm going to be annoyed.


They ARE putting star ads in at least some of the groups folders. I've found them in my "Law And Order" group for instance. There is a thread dis"cussing" this: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=380568


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

I honestly feel this is an acceptable trade-off for being able to zip through commercials that otherwise interrupt my viewing and extend 40 or so actual minutes of content to 60.

The highlighted ads do not impede my consumption of content, not like the completely dull 30 second commercial does.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

kb7sei said:


> If that's the case I am going to seriously reconsider my plans to buy 2 TivoHD or S3 units in the somewhat near future. I never really minded the star ads in the main menu, but if they are putting things in my recordings list I'm going to be annoyed.


this may be the tipping point where TiVo starts loosing subscriptions solely becasue of ads.

Not me mind you. I still have all the functionality and this only crept across my line a bit in that I need to up arrow after going to the bottom of the list but still....

TiVo needs to come up with some compromise showing they are willing to meet the subscriber part way on this one.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Not me mind you. I still have all the functionality and this only crept across my line a bit in that I need to up arrow after going to the bottom of the list but still....


That's right, just keep raising the bar of tolerance. 

Y-ASK


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

I haven't seen either ad yet, but the group ad seems much more troublesome for me. I don't mind main menu ads anyways since I am rarely there. Plus, if they use a big ad on the main menu to replace the two ads they show sometimes, it seems like a find tradeoff.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> That's right, just keep raising the bar of tolerance.
> 
> Y-ASK


I see the big smiley but still want to reply seriously 
no raising the bar of tolerance - the line is still that I do not have to do something different/deliberate with my remote to use the DVR.

This one creeps over the line a little bit becaseu I have to do the up arrow. One extra up arrow on long lists is just a little bit to me.

Now if I had to cancel an ad that started playing opon entering a folder - that would be a lot over the line - still the same line though. you may want to note the posts where I ask TiVo to change the behavior of line item ads in now playing lists to get back on the other side of the line.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

kb7sei said:


> If that's the case I am going to seriously reconsider my plans to buy 2 TivoHD or S3 units in the somewhat near future. I never really minded the star ads in the main menu, but if they are putting things in my recordings list I'm going to be annoyed.


Just as a point of reference, the DirecTV DVRs don't have ads anywhere in the guides, recording listings or during the FF through commercials,etc. They do have 'Showcase' recordings (ads) that show up in a separate folder in your list of recorded shows.

I just, you know, thought I'd throw that out there...


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Well it is kind of funny that in one sentence you state:


ZeoTiVo said:


> no raising the bar of tolerance - the line is still that I do not have to do something different/deliberate with my remote to use the DVR.


And then you say:


ZeoTiVo said:


> This one creeps over the line a little bit becaseu I have to do the up arrow. One extra up arrow on long lists is just a little bit to me.





ZeoTiVo said:


> you may want to note the posts where I ask TiVo to change the behavior of line item ads in now playing lists to get back on the other side of the line.


Oh I noted it with a smile on my face. You've come close to reaching a point that many reached some years ago, yet you're not quite there yet. And each time Tivo Inc. reduces viewing space with ads, you're ok with that. The problem is that after the ads are there for awhile you will have forgotton where the line was again and they'll ad something else to the space and you'll question yourself "Has it reached that point of non-tolerance?" and each time you say nah! and the bar is raised once again.

It's just kind of funny that they've finally crossed your line, just a little bit...

Y-ASK


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> Well it is kind of funny that in one sentence you state:
> 
> And then you say:
> 
> ...


No. I am just a rational human being who puts the annoyance of ads in a consumer society at the proper level. I am going to voice my displeasure in a reasonable rational way. The up arrow is slightly annoying and crosses the line a little bit. That is a reasonable and rational statement. Also I have contacted TiVo more directly and expressed this same displeasure along with rational ideas on how to change the design that I think is reasonable for both subscirbers needs and TiVo incorporated needs

I have not raised any bar. You may also note how I was fully aware that TiVo would use advertising to generate more revenue and since TiVo is not making a profit yet and I would like them to for the long term health of *my* TiVo DVRs then I have always been willing to put up with *some* annoyance if it allows TiVo more revenue that does not come directly out of my pocket.

You can try and spin that some other way but you would be completely wrong


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm not spinning anything. I'm just going by your written word. So which is it? Did they cross the line or not? In one sentence you say they have, "just a little bit" and then in another you say they haven't. Any rational human being can see the issue as an absolute. Either they've crossed your line or they haven't. "A little bit" is crossing the line, is it not? Did they cross the plain and get a touchdown or not?  You can always do a "further review" if you like and give yourself some more time if you want...

Y-ASK


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> I'm not spinning anything.


yes they have crossed the line, how you are having trouble reading that in my posts I can not help you with


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Don't you have any work you should be doing?


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

RoyK said:


> They ARE putting star ads in at least some of the groups folders. I've found them in my "Law And Order" group for instance. There is a thread dis"cussing" this: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=380568


I knew that someday I would be rewarded for using a wishlist to catch any first run of any law and order instead of a SP. 

I guess if I cared about the ads, I'd use more wishlists.


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## eb3604 (Jan 1, 2008)

if tivo was free, then i wouldnt mind, but its not so f the ads


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## Brad Bishop (Sep 11, 2001)

Now we can start the TiVo apologists messages with:
"Well TiVo has to earn money."
"You pay for the guide!"
"TiVo never made you any promises"
"It doesn't affect my viewing / functionality..."

I think the ads are an obvious problem. It's the same kind of problem that we'd all have paying for HBO every month and then getting movies sponsored by various companies. While some might offer up, "Well, they only show ads at the beginning, about an hour in, and then at the end..." they'd probably even offer, "And in the middle I need a bathroom break anyway so it doesn't really affect me..."

It drives me as nuts as those who, on the one hand will argue: "You pay Tivo for the service and software updates..." and then, when someone says something isn't quite right or broken, they offer up, "TiVo never made any promises to give you software updates..."

At the end of the day: It annoys me to pay for a premium service who's function is time-shifting and ad-skipping and for it then to show me ads. It breaks the model. I'm not even one of those anti-ads/hate-ads people. It's just the basic concept / principle of it all.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Brad Bishop said:


> At the end of the day: It annoys me to pay for a premium service who's function is time-shifting and ad-skipping and for it then to show me ads. It breaks the model. I'm not even one of those anti-ads/hate-ads people. It's just the basic concept / principle of it all.


TiVo is careful to avoid saying a function is to skip ads. TiVo saw years ago that it could not go up against the content owners as replay was sued into the ground and buried. TiVo will say "Fast Forward any part of the show" for instance.
TiVo has for many years played up to the content owners while not loosing functionality (FFed the as) that we all know would also bury the company if lost.
So your principle is flawed in the reality of TiVo being in the middle of subscribers and content owners/broadcasters


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Brad Bishop said:


> Now we can start the TiVo apologists messages with:
> "Well TiVo has to earn money."
> "You pay for the guide!"
> "TiVo never made you any promises"
> ...


 It is in the service agreement you have with TiVo that the service is advertising-supported, so in a sense they did make a promise. That there would, indeed, be advertising included in the service.

HBO could potentially change their business model at any time and start selling advertising time on their channels. At least with TiVo, they never gave anyone any reason to question whether or not ads might appear. It has always been a certainty there would be ads.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

I think we can all agree that Tivo has the right to insert ads anyway they want. And since Tivo executives aren't competent enough to ever see a significant profit, I think we can agree that these things will continue.

However I think we can all also agree that many folks will not choose Tivo as a result of the ads. I have come to love my S2 Tivo. However, I will not be purchasing an S3 or S4 when I make my move to HD. I will be building a Media PC - as a direct result of the ads.
Also, if anyone asks me about my Tivo, I will fully explain how obnoxious I find the ads to be. I will firmly recommend that they do not ever, ever, ever purchase a Tivo. 
That's my right in a free market. Tivo has driven their customers to that option.
Good luck to Tivo. Until they fire all current management, they're doomed.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Atomike said:


> I will be building a Media PC - as a direct result of the ads.


Can you get program information free or at a reasonable price for this option any more?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

pdhenry said:


> Can you get program information free or at a reasonable price for this option any more?


Yes. Cheaper than from Tivo.

http://www.schedulesdirect.org/


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

bkdtv said:


> Thankfully, I have my remote programmed to take me directly to the Recorded List so I rarely see these ads.


+1

that and it's at the bottom, doesn't get in your way

Like a billboard while driving, doesn't slow you down


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo is careful to avoid saying a function is to skip ads. TiVo saw years ago that it could not go up against the content owners as replay was sued into the ground and buried. TiVo will say "Fast Forward any part of the show" for instance.
> TiVo has for many years played up to the content owners while not loosing functionality (FFed the as) that we all know would also bury the company if lost.


I know I was joking around earlier with you so please don't think I'm picking on you but you're making a hugh leap here. Replay was sued because they allowed content to be transferred outside the home to another replay TV that was in someone elses house. The lawsuit had nothing to do with the concept of FF'ing through a commerical. Sure Tivo doesn't want to test the waters in a legal sense concerning FF'ing but no company has ever been buried because of it.

Y-ASK


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## jaredmwright (Sep 6, 2004)

I wouldn't mind the new ads so much if they were just a banner and didn't interrupt my movement through menus, such as trying to use channel down to go to the last show. How about making it an image that is not selectable so that it does not affect the menu flow using the remote? TiVo, are you listening?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Atomike said:


> IHowever I think we can all also agree that many folks will not choose Tivo as a result of the ads.


I think that with the now playing list ads that a line has been crossed and this statement now holds true. Still TiVo inc. is looking at this as how many subs are lost versus revenue they get. Also the other way to look at it of how many NEW subs would TiVo have if they dropped ads altogether still holds weight in their deliberations as well. 
Just out of curiosity, since you are willing to spend some bucks/time to go PC and avoid the ads, would you pay 20$ a month to TiVo if they changed the TOS to say you would never get ads?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> Replay was sued because they allowed content to be transferred outside the home to another replay TV that was in someone elses house. The lawsuit had nothing to do with the concept of FF'ing through a commerical. Sure Tivo doesn't want to test the waters in a legal sense concerning FF'ing but no company has ever been buried because of it.
> 
> Y-ASK


replay had the feature to autoskip ads in shows. It was both features that brought down the wrath.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I just wrote a letter to TiVo Customer Service about the new Now Playing/Folder ads. I think we need to speak up if we want them to know how we feel.

:down:


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

kb7sei said:


> If that's the case I am going to seriously reconsider my plans to buy 2 TivoHD or S3 units in the somewhat near future. I never really minded the star ads in the main menu, but if they are putting things in my recordings list I'm going to be annoyed.


You should actually contact Tivo and tell them this.. if it's potentially losing them revenue, they may change.

(I've already got lifetime, so they have my money..)


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

20TIL6 said:


> I honestly feel this is an acceptable trade-off for being able to zip through commercials that otherwise interrupt my viewing and extend 40 or so actual minutes of content to 60.


Umm, many of us were doing the very same thing with VCRs for very very long before.
It's not like you were forced to watch commercials before Tivo.


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## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

not much new to say on the subject - only echoing IT'S HUGE! i understand about the ads, but i do resent when their size overpowers the function lines. do people really click more on them when they're that obnoxious? i know i don't.

i won't dump my 3 lifetimed tivos in the trash, and i won't threaten never to buy tivo again (love me some tivo!), but i am disheartened and it makes me love tivo just a little bit less.

maybe i'll be able to easily tune it out once the novelty wears off - i hope so.

tivo - i wish you'd just cut the font down a bit, that'd make such a big <sic> difference.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> this may be the tipping point where TiVo starts loosing subscriptions solely becasue of ads.


I disagree. I believe that if there was such a "tipping point" it occurred five or six years ago, and was related to a number of things, all of which we've mostly forgotten by now. The introduction of ads will continue, as a means of trying to somehow find a way to a viable business model. If customers and a viable business model never meet, then TiVo will cease to exist as we know it, but going back wouldn't help because _that_ wasn't a viable business model either.



ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo needs to come up with some compromise showing they are willing to meet the subscriber part way on this one.


No they don't.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I just wrote a letter to TiVo Customer Service about the new Now Playing/Folder ads. I think we need to speak up if we want them to know how we feel. :down:


How trustworthy, do you think, consumers writing complaint letters are, in general? If a consumer writes you a letter, saying that some aspect will affect their decision to purchase, do you believe that at face value? What prevents consumers from writing about anything they don't like, regardless of whether or not it will affect their future purchasing decisions, but still _say_ that it _will_?


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

bicker said:


> How trustworthy, do you think, consumers writing complaint letters are, in general? If a consumer writes you a letter, saying that some aspect will affect their decision to purchase, do you believe that at face value? What prevents consumers from writing about anything they don't like, regardless of whether or not it will affect their future purchasing decisions, but still _say_ that it _will_?


Apathy, mostly.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

You think people who don't like something are more prone to be apathetic? 

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. In my experience, folks who are actually making the decision not to purchase are the ones who are LESS likely to write letters complaining about what they didn't like. Rather, it is the rabid fans, i.e., folks who are less likely to change their purchasing decision, that are more likely to write letters like that.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bicker said:


> How trustworthy, do you think, consumers writing complaint letters are, in general? If a consumer writes you a letter, saying that some aspect will affect their decision to purchase, do you believe that at face value? What prevents consumers from writing about anything they don't like, regardless of whether or not it will affect their future purchasing decisions, but still _say_ that it _will_?


I'd take a letter from a person who made the effort to sit down, write out his concerns, put it in an envelope, spend a half dollar for a stamp and mail it quite seriously.

But what would concern me even more are those who would instead not bother to write and just not purchase. I can name 3 locals who took just that route in the last two weeks - actually 4 including myself.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

bicker said:


> You think people who don't like something are more prone to be apathetic?
> 
> Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. In my experience, folks who are actually making the decision not to purchase are the ones who are LESS likely to write letters complaining about what they didn't like. Rather, it is the rabid fans, i.e., folks who are less likely to change their purchasing decision, that are more likely to write letters like that.


You misunderstood me. Most people, regardless of how they feel, wouldn't bother writing a letter at all. Not the other way 'round.

But in _my_ experience, a single complaint letter would be indicative of many more disgruntled people who just can't be bothered to do anything about their gripe. Just as a sending a letter with praise for a person, product, or service would represent many more happy people who also are apathetic towards letting the other party know about their feelings. People are apathetic, and letter writing is all but a dead art.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

RoyK said:


> I'd take a letter from a person who made the effort to sit down, write out his concerns, put it in an envelope, spend a half dollar for a stamp and mail it quite seriously.


So you would treat letters from consumers who really meant what they wrote and letters from people just trying to "stuff the ballot box" the same. I'm sorry but I don't believe you would.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

moonscape said:


> tivo - i wish you'd just cut the font down a bit, that'd make such a big <sic> difference.


Eh? The font size is the same. At least the "Experience Australia Yourself!" that I am looking at. It just takes up more space on the screen with that transparent background around it.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bicker said:


> So you would treat letters from consumers who really meant what they wrote and letters from people just trying to "stuff the ballot box" the same. I'm sorry but I don't believe you would.


I must say your talent for twisting what people say into nonsense never ceases to amaze me.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

It's not a twist. The point I made is that there is no way to tell the difference between someone angry that they're not getting their own way, but still so much of a fan that they're going to continue to pay, and someone who genuinely is changing their purchasing decision (who, as I indicated above, is likely NOT to write in and say why). Just look around. How many people here have posted complaint after complaint after complaint, yet still remain TiVo subscribers?

I think many consumers have an over-inflated sense of the power of their _words_. Talk is cheap. The rule-of-thumb in business is "follow the money".


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

bicker said:


> I think many consumers have an over-inflated sense of the power of their _words_. Talk is cheap. The rule-of-thumb in business is "follow the money".


Something else you can't put a dollar amount on is the number of subscriptions missed because word got out about a problem with the product. Complainers are annoying, but I find that they usually indicate the tip of the iceberg. Most people either silently put up with a defective product and/or quietly tell others not to use it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> I disagree. I believe that if there was such a "tipping point" it occurred five or six years ago, and was related to a number of things, all of which we've mostly forgotten by now. The introduction of ads will continue, as a means of trying to somehow find a way to a viable business model. If customers and a viable business model never meet, then TiVo will cease to exist as we know it, but going back wouldn't help because _that_ wasn't a viable business model either..


I see your point as one of "never a working business model anyhow" and indeed the new CEO has very recently been publicly stating that TiVo is moving in a software direction and away from its hardware business.

Now with the introduction of TiVo hardware in the far est and Australia just starting to roll out and Europe most likely not far behind I do find it an odd statement from him. Despite what he says I for-see Tivo standalone units being around for quite a while. No idea on when they make money on it though 

however, my point is that in regards to ads themselves, the introduction of ads into now playing as currently working has crossed a line/hit a tipping point in which the reaction to the ads is going to negate revenue gains. Public perception of TiVo and thus new subscriptions will be stunted, current subscribers turning to other devices and letting the Tivo lapse, etc..

is this going to be immediate and brutal. No. TiVo will keep loosing money at its current rate but over time, if these ads are left in now playing I think it will turn TiVo even further from profitability. Thus my TiVo has crossed the line a little bit.

Time will tell us if Tivo has other tricks up their sleeve like lower sub prices that would change things yet again.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I just wrote a letter to TiVo Customer Service about the new Now Playing/Folder ads. I think we need to speak up if we want them to know how we feel.
> 
> :down:


I agree, and I've been pretty sympathetic about ads on TiVo. I never minded the Star ads, and even watched several of them. I didn't really mind the 'ads' rammed into Music, Photos & more (Product watch, 'See the New Jaguar XF', ok fine.... ) The FF ads during a commercial? Fine, who cares...

But then the ads at the end of a show when I'm being asked to delete it, that was a tad annoying. Mostly because I know what my TiVo is asking after using it for all these years, I had to take pause at a third menu option. Still, didn't complain.

But now, I see huge menu ads cluttering up the TiVo UI. I went with TiVo because I like it's UI and the way it works, but I can picture these expanding into other menus. Ads in the Find Programs menu, Ads in my season pass manager. It's just obvious that it isn't going to stop until the whole system is cluttered with ads.

If tivo wants its users to accept ads, they need to be more subtle and not intrusive.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think that with the now playing list ads that a line has been crossed and this statement now holds true.


I agree that Tivo has *crossed the line* with these ads.

If these aren't removed in a timely fashion, I can't continue recommending TiVo on TCF, AVS, and other forums. TiVo already got my money for some TiVos, but they won't be getting my money for another if they continue with these ads.

I think I'll put a screenshot of the new ads in my signature.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

bicker said:


> How trustworthy, do you think, consumers writing complaint letters are, in general? If a consumer writes you a letter, saying that some aspect will affect their decision to purchase, do you believe that at face value? What prevents consumers from writing about anything they don't like, regardless of whether or not it will affect their future purchasing decisions, but still _say_ that it _will_?


Short answer, YES.

I run a business. Letters have the highest impact of any form of complaint. Emails are lowest on the totem pole, then phone calls. A letter requires more time to send, and when someone takes that kind of time, I listen. I personally respond to every letter, and when applicable, do something about their point.

BTW, in my letter, I did not say I would not renew. I told them how much the latest form of ads bothered me (the group ads) versus the other ads, and that it cheapened the TiVo experience. I told them I felt it "intruded" on my personal space (the Now Playing List), whereas menu ads were a "common" space. I told them that I buy into the TiVo My Way concept, but ads like this run counter to it. And I suggested they rethink the type of ads they use.

My point was not to threaten them, but to educate them on how a loyal TiVo user feels. If enough letters show up complaining (and it may only take a few to be considered an avalanche), TPTB may think twice.

And that's my goal.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

JaneiR36 said:


> Something else you can't put a dollar amount on is the number of subscriptions missed because word got out about a problem with the product.


I cannot think of a consumer electronics product I have for which there _aren't_ conditions that some consumers would consider problems.


JaneiR36 said:


> Complainers are annoying, but I find that they usually indicate the tip of the iceberg.


I cannot think of a consumer electronics product I have that I've read any significant amount about, that I _haven't_ read complaints about.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> however, my point is that in regards to ads themselves, the introduction of ads into now playing as currently working has crossed a line/hit a tipping point in which the reaction to the ads is going to negate revenue gains.


You haven't provided any proof of that. Even if it where true, you haven't provided evidence that the alternative you're implicitly advocating is a viable business model. Either way, advertisements which generate revenue today are better for the business than your alternative.



ZeoTiVo said:


> Public perception of TiVo and thus new subscriptions will be stunted, current subscribers turning to other devices and letting the Tivo lapse, etc..


I don't see that happening any more than it would have happened anyway. The second TiVo gains a competitor, expect that TiVo will take a hit in terms of numbers of subscribers. No competition versus competition... uhhh... let me think about how that will affect things.  My guess is that that will be the only thing that will have any significant impact on TiVo's subscriber base. This advertising hubbub is going to be noise.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Short answer, YES. I run a business.


You owe us full disclosure if you expect anyone but people already convinced of your perspective to believe what you're saying. What kind of mass-market consumer-facing business to you run?



astrohip said:


> Letters have the highest impact of any form of complaint.


That's just plain wrong. Sales has the highest impact.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> You haven't provided any proof of that. Even if it where true, you haven't provided evidence that the alternative you're implicitly advocating is a viable business model. Either way, advertisements which generate revenue today are better for the business than your alternative.


 well no proof will be coming from me as I am not in the business of analyzing markets and TiVo inc's market must be a real tough nut to analyze even by those that do it for a living. So we just have my opinion on the matter disclosed for the full price it is worth  But I think you missed my alternative designs of having "skip to tick" stop on the last show and not on the ad or else placing the ad at the top and highlighting the second item when yopu enter a list.

so time will tell but I have followed TiVo quite a bit and obviously thought TiVo was alright with ads before this so it is not a bad reaction to ads in general in my case but that many subscribers will not like ads the way they are currently done in now playing and over time that dislike will be an accumulatiing negative for TiVo.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> But I think you missed my alternative designs of having "skip to tick" stop on the last show and not on the ad or else placing the ad at the top and highlighting the second item when yopu enter a list.


Perhaps Tivo thought they were already being less invasive by putting it at the end of the list. I mean really, how many people even know about the "skip to tick" to jump to end of a list in the menus? I don't think I've ever done that. Of course, now I will and be all the more annoyed.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

From TiVo's perspective, you have to wonder what makes them think that this ad will be affective anyways. People become pretty immune to ads in TiVo especially with all the different placements. And this one is in no way innovative that it would make a user actually want to click it.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

rainwater said:


> From TiVo's perspective, you have to wonder what makes them think that this ad will be affective anyways. People become pretty immune to ads in TiVo especially with all the different placements. And this one is in no way innovative that it would make a user actually want to click it.


Agreed, but perhaps they are able to convince advertisers otherwise.

Many people buy TiVos to avoid advertisements in the commercials in the first place, be they in recorded programs or on the menus (as in TVGuide / IGuide).


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

Yes, pay 12.95 for service and get more ads.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

kb7sei said:


> If that's the case I am going to seriously reconsider my plans to buy 2 TivoHD or S3 units in the somewhat near future. I never really minded the star ads in the main menu, but if they are putting things in my recordings list I'm going to be annoyed.


Oh for the love of anything that's TiVo'd....if that REALLY annoys you, there are other issues you have....my goodness people. If this is a way for TiVo to generate a little revenue, I'm all for it. I've noticed the ad (but will not read it), and it's NOT any larger (check the font size); it's just got a translucent background. I have not, however, seen it anywhere other than the main menu.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

bicker said:


> You owe us full disclosure if you expect anyone but people already convinced of your perspective to believe what you're saying. What kind of mass-market consumer-facing business to you run?
> 
> That's just plain wrong. Sales has the highest impact.


1) I'm in the kitchen & bath business (appl, cabs, etc). I can't speak for ANY other business, I just know that for me, personally, *nothing* has the impact of a letter.

2) Won't disagree that sales is the ultimate bottom-line, but many business people (unfortunately) don't associate sales ups & downs with a specific complaint. I was referring to "what type of complaint" gets the most TOMA, not an overall indicator like sales.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

And my point was only that in a mass-market consumer situation, unsolicited, non-normalized feedback it utterly unreliable.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

bicker said:


> And my point was only that in a mass-market consumer situation, unsolicited, non-normalized feedback it utterly unreliable.


A company needs to look at a combination of feedback and sales to figure out how well a product is doing. If the company just looks at sales then they'll have no idea why a product is selling or why it is failing to sell. If sales are down, without feedback, the company has no idea why.

Let's say a company sells 100 units in one day, which for a company like TiVo is not an unrealistic number. All that company knows is that they sold 100 units. They have no idea how many people actually looked at the unit, contemplated buying it and decided not to for whatever reason. 100 sales out of 1000 people looking is good. 100 sales out of millions of people looking is not.

Also it isn't the number of complaints (or praises) that is important, but the percentage of customers complaining. Take, for example, a large company like Comcast that has 24 million video customers (as of 3Q07). If 100,000 people complain, that's about 0.42 percent of all the subscribers, which is a drop in the bucket. TiVo (as of 3Q07) has 1.7 million customers (not DirecTV customers who don't contact TiVo for support). If 100,000 people complain that is about 5.9 percent, which for a business is a fairly high percentage of complaints and enough for a business to take notice.

Feedback, especially for a small company like TiVo, is very important. TiVo has actually been pretty good at listening to feedback in the past. The first time they tried their banner fast forward ads, they didn't work very well. People complained and TiVo removed them. They then fixed them, put them back in a judged from the reaction that they worked well enough to leave them in. Also the fact that a number of TiVo employees participate in these forums is proof enough that they care about the opinion and feedback of their customers (or at least the employees do).

By the way, the reasons you mentioned is one of the reasons e-mail complaints are very low on the totem. It's trivial to forge a few thousand email addresses. It's a lot harder to write a few thousand letters and mail them from different post offices in various parts of the country (or world). It's also the reason online petitions are a waste of time.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

morac said:


> A company needs to look at a combination of feedback and sales to figure out how well a product is doing.


There are two issues: (1) Whether something is "good" or "bad", and (2) if "bad" then why? Feedback has very little use for #1. After they've determined #1, then feedback is useful for #2. However, mass-market consumer-facing companies know to rely mostly on *solicited, normalized* feedback, not unsolicited, non-normalized feedback.



morac said:


> If the company just looks at sales then they'll have no idea why a product is selling or why it is failing to sell.


Market research, target groups, etc. Great tools, all.



morac said:


> By the way, the reasons you mentioned is one of the reasons e-mail complaints are very low on the totem. It's trivial to forge a few thousand email addresses. It's a lot harder to write a few thousand letters and mail them from different post offices in various parts of the country (or world).


And even harder to fake your way onto randomized phone lists of prospective customers.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

I'm really chiming in late here but just saw the new ads after traveling last week. Add me to the list of those that think it is starting to go over the line into where it impacts my enjoying the TiVo. I'll defend their right to do it but may make less recommendations as to what a great thing TiVo is.

On the topic of using sales to gauge customer satisfaction, my thoughts are that using sales is a bit like waiting for the fire to burn through the roof to determine if the house is on fire. A little late to fix it.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

bicker said:


> Market research, target groups, etc. Great tools, all.


Not to bring politics into this, but the New Hampshire democratic primary proves that market researching (or polling in this case) isn't always accurate. 

Actually if market research was always accurate you'd never see those 10 worst products of the year lists that come out around now.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ah30k said:


> On the topic of using sales to gauge customer satisfaction, my thoughts are that using sales is a bit like waiting for the fire to burn through the roof to determine if the house is on fire. A little late to fix it.


"Sales" isn't any later than "complaints" -- "sales" is _earlier_, indeed. So what companies do is that they prototype, run focus groups, limited tests, survey the market, etc.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

morac said:


> Not to bring politics into this, but the New Hampshire democratic primary proves that market researching (or polling in this case) isn't always accurate.


Indeed, which is why I said that mass-market consumer-facing companies know to rely mostly on solicited, normalized feedback -- specifically because it is "*more*" reliable than unsolicited, non-normalized feedback.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

rainwater said:


> From TiVo's perspective, you have to wonder what makes them think that this ad will be affective anyways.


My wife *wanted* to watch the ad. It's Australia -- she's always wanted to go. What you're saying here might apply to toothpaste, but people actually _watch_ travel shows, so folks are more likely to follow a link to an advertisement about travel than one about toothpaste.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

bicker said:


> My wife *wanted* to watch the ad. It's Australia -- she's always wanted to go. What you're saying here might apply to toothpaste, but people actually _watch_ travel shows, so folks are more likely to follow a link to an advertisement about travel than one about toothpaste.


Yes, but do travel ads work on random season passes? I highly doubt it. Unless TiVo has a more targeted way to distribute the ads they will most likely fail.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

bicker said:


> "Sales" isn't any later than "complaints" -- "sales" is _earlier_, indeed. So what companies do is that they prototype, run focus groups, limited tests, survey the market, etc.


While I do appreciate the lesson on marketing, I never said that sales are later than complaints. What I said was, lost sales are too late as an indicator.

With the variability in sales data and the lack of sales analysts ability to see the reasons even when the trends are there, it would be WAY too late to make any corrections to wrong strategic decisions.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

ah30k said:


> While I do appreciate the lesson on marketing, I never said that sales are later than complaints. What I said was, lost sales are too late as an indicator.


Especially when you're a company like TiVo with fierce competitors! If you're a Cable or Satellite TV company, you can afford not to care. Their subscriptions seem to float back and forth from each other as people move, each side comes up with more enticing deals, etc. But I see any movement _away _from TiVo as a one way street. A lot of times when you switch away from TiVo, you are going to an alternative that may not have as much functionality, but fits in more with the providers service (setup box already required for satellite, digital cable, etc), whereas prospective TiVo customers must make a conscious decision to invest in the hardware and pay for the service. They don't have the more convenient "would you like fries with that" business model, here. They don't already have customers in the bag they can afford to dink with. There is no bag!!!


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

I wouldn't mind these ads so much if there was a way to opt out of them... even if it was a way that you had to apply to each ad. For instance, I'm not going to Australia any time soon, and that doesn't change no matter how many times I see the stupid banner. So TiVo, please, just let me delete it. (While you're at it, please let me delete items from the Music, Photos & More menu, like Product Watch, the Jaguar ad (I've never buying a Jaguar), etc.)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

rainwater said:


> Unless TiVo has a more targeted way to distribute the ads they will most likely fail.


By that logic, all ads on television will most likely fail.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ah30k said:


> While I do appreciate the lesson on marketing, I never said that sales are later than complaints. What I said was, lost sales are too late as an indicator.


And what I said was that unsolicited, non-normalized feedback was too unreliable. I'm not sure what the context of your reply, since it doesn't seem to contradict that.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

JaneiR36 said:


> If you're a Cable or Satellite TV company, you can afford not to care.


What's amazing is how in the cable company and satellite forums the opposite point is made, i.e., that the cable and satellite companies cannot afford not to care.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

bicker said:


> And what I said was that unsolicited, non-normalized feedback was too unreliable. I'm not sure what the context of your reply, since it doesn't seem to contradict that.


Your post #69


> "Sales" isn't any later than "complaints" -- "sales" is earlier, indeed."


seemed to imply what I said was wrong by quoting me and making a correction. Maybe I misread your post.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Your message was seemingly supporting complaints as a measure of customer satisfaction. It too is "too late" and even worse, unreliable. I guess we're just saying the same thing different ways. The only timely and reliable way to gauge customer satisfaction is with well-designed and implemented market research.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> Oh for the love of anything that's TiVo'd....if that REALLY annoys you, there are other issues you have....my goodness people. If this is a way for TiVo to generate a little revenue, I'm all for it. I've noticed the ad (but will not read it), and it's NOT any larger (check the font size); it's just got a translucent background. I have not, however, seen it anywhere other than the main menu.


There are other things that annoy me, but most of them are DirecTV's fault (I'm currently using 2 S2 DTivos, hacked for HMO and such).

Like I said, I don't mind the star ads in the main menu. I feel like the recordings list is my personal space and I don't want anything else in there. If it doesn't bother you, great for you. It bothers me enough to not buy the 2 TiVo boxes I've been thinking about. That combined with having to move to Comcast makes me less interested. Even for HD. I don't care what the font size is, if I can see it and have to select past it in the list of recordings, I don't want it. I use the skip button a lot to jump around in the recordings lists, so it will affect me in ways I don't like. Maybe I'll check the other forum and see if it's been hacked out. I was hoping to avoid most hacking on the new units though.

I get that TiVo has to make money, but I'd be paying them almost $20/mo ($13 + $7 for the second box, right?) for service on top of what I have to pay the cableco. That's a lot to add to my cable bill. It's also 4x what I pay for TiVo service on DTV. For that, I would expect a little better treatment.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

"A lot" is a relative term, of course. 

Treatment isn't the issue -- there's nothing personal going on here; it's strictly business.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

bicker said:


> By that logic, all ads on television will most likely fail.


That isn't true. In fact, TiVo provides a better metrics system to advertisers than TV can provide. Even so, advertisers can still determine the effectiveness to TV ads and they certainly do not all fail.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I know they don't fail. I was pointing out the problem with your earlier logic.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

Has any of you who are having problem with this ad ever had to spend one extra remote click on what you do because of this ad?


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## Jiffylush (Oct 31, 2006)

I wish the ad would go away after you click on it.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> Has any of you who are having problem with this ad ever had to spend one extra remote click on what you do because of this ad?


Personally, for me, this is not the point. I simply like simple, elegant menus. We've already established that many folks don't care about the interface or elegance - and that's okay for them. But not for me.
Button clicks are important to me - but so is the look. 
In summary, I hate the fact that the interface is no longer TV *my* way. This is why I also object to the smaller star ads.

That's it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Atomike said:


> Personally, for me, this is not the point. I simply like simple, elegant menus. We've already established that many folks don't care about the interface or elegance - and that's okay for them. But not for me.


well to be fair, TiVo did spend some time to make the ads look better than the old single height yellow star plain looking stuff


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

bicker said:


> "A lot" is a relative term, of course.
> 
> Treatment isn't the issue -- there's nothing personal going on here; it's strictly business.


Well, "a lot" in my case makes this about a 30% increase to my monthly bill. Hard enough to "sell" to the wife. With more advertising, I don't think she would go for it. We only have the lower package, and because of time-shifting don't really want any more. If it wasn't for History, Discovery, USA, Sci-Fi and probably 3-4 other channels, we would just use an antenna.

I know it's not a personal thing, it's a business relationship thing and as a paying customer I expect to be treated better. If your expectations are lower, that's your business. Just like how I rarely go to the movies anymore because I'm sick of being blasted with advertising on top of the expensive tickets and even more expensive popcorn. I'd rather wait and watch at home for that price. Aparently I'm in the minority as I don't see theaters going out of business, and that's ok with me. I choose who to give my money to based on how they treat their customers, among other things of course.

So I'll just agree to disagree. Everyone has their own tolerance level for this sort of thing. Mine seems to be lower than many here. *shrug*


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## gatzke (Dec 28, 2007)

Atomike said:


> However I think we can all also agree that many folks will not choose Tivo as a result of the ads. I have come to love my S2 Tivo. However, I will not be purchasing an S3 or S4 when I make my move to HD. I will be building a Media PC - as a direct result of the ads.


Good luck with that PC. It can be a painful and expensive and frustrating experience.

Tivo just works. It does not crash or break (often). It does not miss programs.

There is no way to get encrypted HD content onto a PC now. Tivo has access to some using the M card (but no SDV).

And you still have ads on the PC recorded stuff. You can re-encode, but catching ads is not 100%. The best interface I found is the Beyond TV that highlights the areas that may be commercials on the play bar so you know approximately how many times to hit the 30 second skip. Not 100%, but you can always back up...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

kb7sei said:


> If your expectations are lower, that's your business.


It isn't that my expectations are "lower" but rather that they are based on what I was *promised*, not what I *want*. I don't expect a Lutheran minister to perform a bris, even though a bris is performed by a religious person and the minister is a religious person.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well to be fair, TiVo did spend some time to make the ads look better than the old single height yellow star plain looking stuff


You ARE kidding -- right?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> You ARE kidding -- right?


Yah I thought I would throw a little irony in with the post. 
I know people who do not like seeing the ads are doubly unhappy with the bigger ads, but at least they are a little shiner as well.


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## DickK (Oct 11, 2004)

Personally, I don't like it but I would be willing to bet that it's going to get a lot worse. I *really* don't like the ones that are now blasting away on the new screens at the gas station I _used_ to stop at -- but I just wonder how long it will be before they show up at the one I now use. 

The makers of those ads were skipping are going to find a way to get them where it will be hard to skip or avoid and TiVo is going to be part of it <sigh>.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Until a substantial number of us are willing to pay a *substantial* premium (until we can come up with objective evidence of the actual number, just assume that "substantial" means double what you think it means) for advertising-free programming, then it won't be available. Even DVDs from Netflix have advertisements now.


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## DickK (Oct 11, 2004)

bicker said:


> Until a substantial number of us are willing to pay a *substantial* premium (until we can come up with objective evidence of the actual number, just assume that "substantial" means double what you think it means) for advertising-free programming, then it won't be available. Even DVDs from Netflix have advertisements now.


And where would I sign up? That's the trouble -- with the exception of the cable TV movie channels all the sources have gone to more-and-more advertising to generate extra revenue. Most programming has gotten to the point that you get <10 min of program and 3.5-5 min of ads. The amazing and discouraging thing is that few seem to care. So, where do I sign up for the commercial-free version?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DickK said:


> So, where do I sign up for the commercial-free version?


UNBOX, 1.99 an episode with whole season discounts on some shows. make sure adblocker is running while you hit their website though 

AppleTv and others coming online to provide it as well. Me I would only want to pay at most 50cents an episode and would think substantial would be another 50 cents so the 1.99 for no ads has no "get all my shows there" appeal for me.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

DickK said:


> And where would I sign up?


As I said, there needs to be a substantial number of people willing. If there are, the suppliers will invariably detect the opportunity for big profits and jump.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

So I opened "The Office"'s folder in Now Playing, guess what?

A star ad.

I guess there going to be everywhere now...


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

I have turned on TiVo sometimes to find few / no ads. Last time it happened, something was wrong with my wireless connection and I think it missed a connection. Anyone else experience this?


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## visionary (May 31, 2006)

Anyone care to compare Tivo's ad policy to say that new Echostar DVR just out? I don't think a one line ad on a menu is something that bad. What would be funny is if some of you did decide to get the other DVR over this one little line and find the other DVR ad free now, then in a few months find you have 10 minutes of 2008 political ads in front of every show you want to see, now THAT would be funny!! Anyway, what does Echostar say about ads on their DVR?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

visionary said:


> PRODUCERS! Double your DVD profits, film nudity for TV shows and movies to be only on the DVD!!
> I love movie & TV ratings, if there is no N in rating, don't buy it! The World needs me--VISIONARY!


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## visionary (May 31, 2006)

Adam can't figure out my signature??? See, we have repressive puritan TV in the USA that fears everything. However you can have European type TV shows and movies on DVD here... so.... For the millions who would love that, add such scenes to the DVD and you stimulate sales of the DVD. It is not that different that DVD's get sold to people wanting to see the deleted scenes and stuff... see? I am always glad to enighten others. Anyway, what about other DVR's ad policies?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Actually I had just gotten BattleStar Gallactica:Razor on DVD as I missed the TV showing of it. It had an extended non rated version (no nudity though) and all the minisodes from the web site as well. A really good "Look and Feel" that went in depth on the vision the producer had and a great discussion from the actors on their favorite episode. All in all well worth the DVD over the TV showing - still this takes great production and a great story with a great cast to pull off. Guess the others will have to stick to nudity to sell the DVD.

But if they keep overlaying the TV shows with stupid animated bugs then I will wait for the DVDs of the shows.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

A perfect solution (until they start overlaying the DVD presentations with advertising as well).


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