# volume level help?



## bnm81002 (Oct 3, 2004)

is there a way that I can level out the sound/volume on the channels of Directv? some channels are louder than others, I would like to stabilize a set level for the volume for all the channels, is there a device that I can get that will do this for me? or is there a "hack" that would also do this? thanks in advance


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

Short of putting on an external audio compressor/limiter, I don't think there is much else you can do.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Google "volume stabilizer". Avoid the Terk model.


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## bnm81002 (Oct 3, 2004)

thanks for the replies, any sugesstions on models and brands?


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## DVRaholic (Mar 28, 2004)

I got this Sound regulator few weeks ago, hooked it up to my HR10-250 and it works great !!! I have the Terk on my other Tivo and its not nearly as good. The Terk just increases the volume on all channels, it doesnt even them out. Dont buy the Terk, its Junk

http://www.tvsoundregulator.com/


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## bnm81002 (Oct 3, 2004)

TivoAholic said:


> I got this Sound regulator few weeks ago, hooked it up to my HR10-250 and it works great !!! I have the Terk on my other Tivo and its not nearly as good. The Terk just increases the volume on all channels, it doesnt even them out. Dont buy the Terk, its Junk
> 
> http://www.tvsoundregulator.com/


does it evens/levels the audio-volume for all channels? for example channel 4 is loud and channel 11 is low, does the regulator that you mentioned will even out the sound? thanks


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## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

How is the tv sound regulator connected?


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## Tburt (Nov 29, 2004)

DouglasPHill said:


> How is the tv sound regulator connected?


It is connect via RCA cables to a small box that sits somewhere near the TV. Then RCA cables runs from the small box to the TV's RCA sound input. It will not work if you are using coax into the TV from the receiver. At least this is how the Terk version (the one I have) works. And it does boost the low sound channels up along with the high vol channels down. It is rare that I ever touch the vol buttons now.


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## bnm81002 (Oct 3, 2004)

Tburt said:


> It is connect via RCA cables to a small box that sits somewhere near the TV. Then RCA cables runs from the small box to the TV's RCA sound input. It will not work if you are using coax into the TV from the receiver. At least this is how the Terk version (the one I have) works. And it does boost the low sound channels up along with the high vol channels down. It is rare that I ever touch the vol buttons now.


when you said TV's RCA sound input, you mean the red and white connectors?
so this regulator does work well huh?
thanks


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## DVRaholic (Mar 28, 2004)

bnm81002 said:


> when you said TV's RCA sound input, you mean the red and white connectors?
> so this regulator does work well huh?
> thanks


Yes the TvSound regulator works great. I dont have to adjust my volume at all when changing channels.

As I said in my previous post I also have the Terk on my second tv. IMO the sound coming out of the TvSound regulator is much much better and richer, it sounds great hooked through my sound system. The terk just sounds Louder!

I have mine hooked up using just the included RCA sound plugs (red/white) and My Component video (not the included video) 
this way I can enjoy A Perfect picture and Now Perfect Sound as well!!

Check out the website, it will give you all the info on the TvSound regulator....

http://www.tvsoundregulator.com/html/works.htm


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## bnm81002 (Oct 3, 2004)

I also found this unit made by Sima, it's a lilttle more expensive but it does have 4 inputs and 2 outputs plus a volume stabilizer built-in, model # SVS-4D, it's on their website simacorp.com under products- SIMA- home theater- A/V Selectors-SVS-4D, this seems good to me too because I can also connect a DVD player, a VCR and it would help stabilize the volume when playing DVD's or VCR tapes
but it's around $120 though


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## Tburt (Nov 29, 2004)

bnm81002 said:


> when you said TV's RCA sound input, you mean the red and white connectors?
> so this regulator does work well huh?
> thanks


Yes the right and left channel stereo RCA input/outputs. That is why it would not work with the coax connection (mono) from Direct's (or DTivo) receiver. The Terk VR-1 unit works well for my family and myself. My father and cousin both love theirs, as it was one of their Christmas presents from me last year. I have only one S-video connection to my TV, so I use an automatic s-video / composite switcher. It will switch to whatever the last device that is powered on. No matter if the output device is composite or S-Video, they all go into that switcher and then it goes into my TV's one s-video input and the sound goes through my Terk VR-1 device (again it then goes into my TV's left/right RCA stereo channels). Since my one Terk VR-1 is connected to the output of the switcher, no matter what I am listening to or watching it goes through my Terk VR-1. So it works with my DVD/VCR/Tivo + Stereo/MP3 player. I have never tried the TvSound regulator that has been mentioned in this thread, so I cannot directly compare them. The Terk VR-1 has a bypass switch in case you want to listen to your CDs or whatever without it going through the Terk VR-1's Digital Signal Processing, though I never found I needed to. It is really a set the volumn level and forget it device. I do get a kick out of switching it to bypass and back to listen to the difference. It is a really neat device. It does not matter if you switch channels to a loud or soft one because it will raise or lower it as needed... or if a loud commercial comes on, I do not need to rush for the remote to turn the volumn down. Here is a little more information on the Terk VR-1 device:

Information from Terk:
http://www.terk.com/pdfs/vr1.pdf

A review: 
http://www.positiveimagenews.com/product_guide/audio/terk/octiv.html

The Terk's VR-1 device uses OCTiV's "Volume Logic technology". See this link for more on OCTiV's sound technology: http://www.octiv.com/

I am sure any of the devices mentioned in this thread would work, so I would choose whichever is the cheapest. I think I have seen the Terk VR-1 for as little as ~$39 at one time, while I have never seen the TvSound regulator under $49. Or better yet, buy both and try them. Then keep the one you think performs the best... and return the other. If you do buy both let us know what you think of each. We had one person report owning both, but I would like to hear more people's side-to-side comparisions. I am going to buy another one soon for my other Tivo in my bedroom, so I am tempted to try the TvSound regulator to compare it to my Terk VR-1.


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## Hodaka (Mar 12, 2005)

Fluctuating volumes drive me nuts. I had thought our TV had a balance built in, but I looked through the manual and discovered it didn't. I'll be holding our sleeping baby and suddenly a commercial will come on and blast us out of the room and wake her. Or, as stated here, you go from one quiet channel to one that knocks you out of the room.

I might look into one of these too..

Anyone have a promotional code for the TV SoundRegulator?


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## Tburt (Nov 29, 2004)

Hodaka said:


> Fluctuating volumes drive me nuts. I had thought our TV had a balance built in, but I looked through the manual and discovered it didn't. I'll be holding our sleeping baby and suddenly a commercial will come on and blast us out of the room and wake her. Or, as stated here, you go from one quiet channel to one that knocks you out of the room.
> 
> I might look into one of these too..
> 
> Anyone have a promotional code for the TV SoundRegulator?


You will be happy with either the Terk's VR-1 or TvSound regulator (from what I have read). If not, return it and try the other.


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## Hodaka (Mar 12, 2005)

I've been doing a little searching this morning and everywhere I run across information, I find people with bad experiences with the Terk. Even the Amazon.com reviews have people saying they went to the TVSR instead or after their Terk decided to die.. so far I've not run across anyone compelling reason not to go with the TVSR..


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## Tburt (Nov 29, 2004)

Hodaka said:


> I've been doing a little searching this morning and everywhere I run across information, I find people with bad experiences with the Terk. Even the Amazon.com reviews have people saying they went to the TVSR instead or after their Terk decided to die.. so far I've not run across anyone compelling reason not to go with the TVSR..


I have been using mine for about a year now, and my family since before Christmas 04. All three are still going strong, and that is not counting my friends that owns them without issue. The key to not killing them is reading the instructions. You cannot place it inline between the stereo amp and the speakers. Too much power going to them will burn them out. They are meant to go before the amp. If the failure rate was that high, I would expect at least one of the ones my family or friends to have died by now. I researched these devices also (for several weeks right before last Christmas - to see what other competition was out there), but finding reliable reviews in number of the TVSRs (much less reviews of reliability) is next to impossible compared to the Terks that are sold just about everywhere... plus Terk TR-1s have been out on the market longer. So take those people's complaints with a grain of salt. I would bet that Terks has many more of their devices on the market compared to the TVRS, so they will have many more people on the net complaining when one does go bad as all electronics do regardless of who makes them. Terk has been selling them for well over a year, maybe two - so there are just more people on the net that has them. You will not find many starting a thread or website stating "Terk VR-1's has not failed". But you will find the opposite as it is human nature. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Between people not following directions, and the overall number of units sold by Terk you are bound to see many more people posting such things about them. This really skews the data and cannot be considered anything close to statistical. Terk VR-1s are reliable, so again I would recommend anyone go for the lowest prince and best sound/features... not what several people who we do not know their circumstances stating they killed their Terk VR-1s. My next may or may not be another Terk as I am curious to what the TVRS' sounds like. I think what impresses me the most about the Terk units is when there is dialog of people in a movie bar with music in the background you can actually hear them talking clearly without any problem. It boosts the conversations so you can understand them. The first time I heard that, I was very impressed.

Again, if I was just looking into these I would try both the Terk TR-1 and TVRS. Once I decided which was the best bang for my buck I would return the other. Just make sure the place of purchase will let you return the item. And most of all, read the instructions. 

IMHO, I do not think people would go wrong with either. Tivo changed my view habits, while my Terk VR-1 has changed the way I listen to TV.


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## Hodaka (Mar 12, 2005)

well, I broke down and purchased a TVSR and I love it. My only real problem with it is that when I pause a show, it will ocassionally cause a hum through my speakers. It never does this during playback.. It does a pretty bangup job on controlling sound levels. I actually had my sound effects (bloop) set to low, and it actually "balanced" it so that it's louder now. Not sure how happy I am with that, but it proves it's working. 

I record a low carb cooking show on FitTV that always starts with a blasting intro that makes me jump out of my chair everytime it kicks in. This is all back down to normal sound levels now..

FYI, I did a bit of digging around and found a coupon code that gives you a cheaper price, plus an extra year warranty.. use code: "skycast". This has something to do with http://www.skycasters.com/ but I had no problem with them accepting my order anyway.. so I guess it's a "use at your own risk" deal.


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## ST1100A (Dec 31, 2004)

Will any of these devices allow me to attenuate the volume level of the Tivo itself? My problem is that I have to turn my amplifier volume almost all the way down, to keep from blasting myself off the couch! Guess it's my fault for having a too sensitive amp and too efficient speakers! I wish the Tivo had it's own volume control...


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## Hodaka (Mar 12, 2005)

I may have jinxed myself. Every show that I've tried has worked well (both live and recorded). However, my wife called today and was complaining about how her Soaps sound. Now I've got to look into that when I get home to see if it's the device or just her.. yay


edit:
more on the subject.. my wife says commercials are fine, so it's something in the way her Soaps are recorded. I have an idea about them, but I'm not positive. She told me that soaps are generally recorded to tape instead of film, thus they look and sound different than other shows. I've got to wonder if this might be the cause of the problems she's seeing/hearing..


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## Tburt (Nov 29, 2004)

Hodaka said:


> well, I broke down and purchased a TVSR and I love it. My only real problem with it is that when I pause a show, it will ocassionally cause a hum through my speakers. It never does this during playback.. It does a pretty bangup job on controlling sound levels. I actually had my sound effects (bloop) set to low, and it actually "balanced" it so that it's louder now. Not sure how happy I am with that, but it proves it's working.


Does it boost the dialog of people a little more than other ambient sounds? For example, a movie that has people talking in a club (or whatever) with loud music in the background. Basically does it boost or lower the music (depending on the levels it starts out at) while boosting the dialog a little extra? Before using the Terk it was hard to understand some of the dialogs, especially in movies when the vol was turned down to not have it blasting music. This helps out with many scenes on TV...even ones not on PPV/movie channels/DVDs/etc.

I think I will try the TVSR next as I need one for my TV in my bedroom. I plan on comparing it to the Terk that I have... as I am going to put either a Terk or TVSR on every TV in the house. It really helps people watching one thing in one room to not disturb others in different room(s) watching something else... plus it helps not disturb people that are trying to sleep while others are watching TV.


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## Hodaka (Mar 12, 2005)

I've watched about 10 shows (plus short tests of some recorded stuff) since I installed it. I was mostly testing for loud bursts of sound, and it passed the test on all of those. In everything i watched, I could hear the conversations with no problems, but I didn't have something specifically playing loud music with conversations. The beginning audio for the FitTV cooking show I record was extremely loud without the TVSR, but very comfortable after I installed it. I could still clearly understand the short "disclaimer" voiceover that accompanied it.

I've yet to investigate my wife's problem with her soaps.. I think she said there's a lot of background hum from the show being amplified. I imagine this has something to do with her mentioning that Soaps are on tape vs film, thus very low quality recordings are being broadcast with a lot of background noise..

A short list of what I watched last night (that I can remember) is:

Blaine's Low Carb cooking (couple of episodes)
Good Eats (couple of episodes)
Unwrapped (couple of episodes)
NCIS
SouthPark
The Amazing Race

All of these were well balanced and I could understand everything I heard with no problem. I ignored my 30second skip on many of their commercials, but not a single commercial was overbearing in volume like they usually are..

Sadly, if I can't figure out my wife's issue with her soaps, I'll probably have to send it back..


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## Hodaka (Mar 12, 2005)

I weighed the choice between louder commercials and living with an unhappy wife and have decided to return the TVSR. 

She demonstrated the issue she was having. Background noises during her soaps like sheets rustling or papers being shuffled would be unnaturally loud and the voices sounded a little like they were in a tunnel. It wasn't enough to have annoyed me that much, but I could hear it too. Soo, I'll return the TVSR and maybe try a Terk if I find a good deal on it down the road..

Just an FYI, I have all of my devices running into a 5 port switch that then runs to my TV. I had the TVSR between the switch and the TV. I didn't bother to test a direct connection because that would have been worthless to me since I need my setup like it is now..

oh well, hopefully I'll find a better solution to annoying commercials and loud outburts of sound down the road..


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

I had the TVSR for about 3 years, and it worked well. Then it just stopped "regulating". I then tried the Sima unit ($79 at the time) and it worked even better, but it too stopped regulating after about 3 years. I got the Terk, and it really doesn't do a very good job at all...almost as bad as no level control at all.

There is a pro version for about $80-120 which I have used in TV station level control applications, ("Stick On" ??? might be the name) which I know works extremely well, from a company callled Radio Electronics, and I think they are out of Prescott, Arizona. That would be my next choice, but I realized I have a $500 Sony compressor/limiter sitting around collecting dust, so that is going in my rig next.


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## bnm81002 (Oct 3, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> I had the TVSR for about 3 years, and it worked well. Then it just stopped "regulating". I then tried the Sima unit ($79 at the time) and it worked even better, but it too stopped regulating after about 3 years. I got the Terk, and it really doesn't do a very good job at all...almost as bad as no level control at all.
> 
> There is a pro version for about $80-120 which I have used in TV station level control applications, ("Stick On" ??? might be the name) which I know works extremely well, from a company callled Radio Electronics, and I think they are out of Prescott, Arizona. That would be my next choice, but I realized I have a $500 Sony compressor/limiter sitting around collecting dust, so that is going in my rig next.


I looked at the Sima unit, I like that alot since you can connect other things besides the DTivo unit and regulate the sound but it was around $117 at the time,
so a compressor/limiter will work also? I have one hooked up to my DJ equipment, just have to figure out how to connect my home theater system to the compressor?


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## paulfitz (Apr 15, 2004)

Do any of the compressor/limiters work with the optical output?


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## Tburt (Nov 29, 2004)

Hodaka said:


> I weighed the choice between louder commercials and living with an unhappy wife and have decided to return the TVSR.
> 
> She demonstrated the issue she was having. Background noises during her soaps like sheets rustling or papers being shuffled would be unnaturally loud and the voices sounded a little like they were in a tunnel. It wasn't enough to have annoyed me that much, but I could hear it too. Soo, I'll return the TVSR and maybe try a Terk if I find a good deal on it down the road..
> 
> ...


The TVSR most likely does not handle the way her soap(s) compresses (processess their sound) of their show(s) very well, and that the TVSR is having issues with sound quality because of this. The way they make commercials (or any TV show for that matter) sound louder (without really being louder) is using a different compression that adds boom to the annoying ads to give them an effect of being a lot louder. This is the get people's attention. From what you explained, I do not think the TVSR handles the way her soaps are compressed very well, most likely due to the way the TVSR handles the reprocessing of the sound (with that certain type compression). That is just my guess. Others that are more technical than I should be able to explain it much better than I could ever.

You can always try a Terk, my family has many and we have not had any problems with not one of them. The Terks range in age from over a year, to several months.


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## bnm81002 (Oct 3, 2004)

bnm81002 said:


> I looked at the Sima unit, I like that alot since you can connect other things besides the DTivo unit and regulate the sound but it was around $117 at the time,
> so a compressor/limiter will work also? I have one hooked up to my DJ equipment, just have to figure out how to connect my home theater system to the compressor?


yes? no?


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Yes, a comp/limiter is exactly how these consumer units work. Another good choice is the Alesis NanoComp, a half-rack unit designed for desktop audio enthusiasts. You can usually get that for well under $100 at Guitar Center or similar places. I'm using mine specifically for my daily recordings of "The Howard Stern Show" off radio for iPod, and it works very well. EMR makes a really sweet unit for about $230 that will really do a nice job.

What Tburt is referring to is sometimes called "upcompression", which is a method that involves bringing up the lower-level sounds while leaving the higher-level sounds alone. A normal compressor works by doing the opposite. Upcompression is used to extreme in mastering for pop music, so that records sound competitively louder than the next without actually going above a particular threshold. An upcompressed record will peak at 100 VU just like a normal track will, but the increased aggregate energy in the upcompressed track will make it be perceived as significantly louder. Since a normal compressor/limiter only works on bringing down the higher-level sounds to normal, when it encounters an upcompressed track it is not as effective as it would be compressing uncompressed tracks, and it takes very precise adjustment to realy be effective at all. Consumer units therefore don't do such a good job, and I think the Terk is particularly useless in this regard.

This is the same problem with commercials...they peak at the same level as program, but the aggregate energy is higher, so they SOUND much louder than program, even when they realy aren't. TV commercial producers know how to play this to their advantage. It's easy to sneak this kind of thing past audio engineers because virtually no equipment can detect it and it appears normal on most metering. REALLY GOOD audio engineers know to ignore the VU levels and use their ears to match perceived levels, but they rarely work in broadcasting, and automatic level controls aren't really applied well in broadcasting.

While having a consumer unit will smooth out some of the levels on a particular station, the real advantage is that it will smooth out the differences between different sources, as standards for matching audio levels seem to have gone completely out the window in broadcasting.


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## bnm81002 (Oct 3, 2004)

oh I have a compressor/limiter that is hookep up to my DJ equipment, I just have to figure out how to connect it to my DTivo unit? have to read the instruction manual,
I have the DBX 166A model, just a guess here w/o seeing the manual now, I would hook it up like this:
DTivo LR Output >Compressor/Limiter LR Input>TV LR Input?
thanks


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## Tburt (Nov 29, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> Yes, a comp/limiter is exactly how these consumer units work. Another good choice is the Alesis NanoComp, a half-rack unit designed for desktop audio enthusiasts. You can usually get that for well under $100 at Guitar Center or similar places. I'm using mine specifically for my daily recordings of "The Howard Stern Show" off radio for iPod, and it works very well. EMR makes a really sweet unit for about $230 that will really do a nice job.
> 
> What Tburt is referring to is sometimes called "upcompression", which is a method that involves bringing up the lower-level sounds while leaving the higher-level sounds alone. A normal compressor works by doing the opposite. Upcompression is used to extreme in mastering for pop music, so that records sound competitively louder than the next without actually going above a particular threshold. An upcompressed record will peak at 100 VU just like a normal track will, but the increased aggregate energy in the upcompressed track will make it be perceived as significantly louder. Since a normal compressor/limiter only works on bringing down the higher-level sounds to normal, when it encounters an upcompressed track it is not as effective as it would be compressing uncompressed tracks, and it takes very precise adjustment to realy be effective at all. Consumer units therefore don't do such a good job, and I think the Terk is particularly useless in this regard.
> 
> This is the same problem with commercials...they peak at the same level as program, but the aggregate energy is higher, so they SOUND much louder than program, even when they realy aren't. TV commercial producers know how to play this to their advantage. It's easy to sneak this kind of thing past audio engineers because virtually no equipment can detect it and it appears normal on most metering. REALLY GOOD audio engineers know to ignore the VU levels and use their ears to match perceived levels, but they rarely work in broadcasting, and automatic level controls aren't really applied well in broadcasting.


I can set the TV vol at one level and I never have to change it unless the ambient sound increases (people talking loudly in the room I am watching TV for example). It works from channel to channel without having to change the vol. I had yet to have a blasting commerical, as it appears that all commercials are compressed in a way to give extra boom to their commericals while not really being louder. For a device that ranges from $35 to $49, I will not be upset if one commercial slips past it (though it has not yet in the year I have used it). If one wants to spend several times the cost of this device to catch the one commercial that might slip by, or might not, then that is a choice one will have to make up their own minds. For the price and performance it is hard to beat. Besides I have to disagree with it not lowering the loudest parts. I can flip the switch to bypass and some shows lower the vol, while other go up. Here is what Terk (and a clip from Octiv - the makers of the technology that the Terk uses) states "Terk's VR-1 TV volume regulator lets you enjoy clean, consistent sound while channel-surfing or watching your favorite shows. *Its advanced digital signal processing responds within just thousandths of a second to reduce volume spikes or boost abnormally quiet scenes.*" From Octiv's sight "Fix Audio Loudness Problems with Volume Logic...OctiMax technology delivers cleaner, clearer, more consistent audio via a highly sophisticated multi-band dynamics processor just like those used by professionals, but small enough to fit inside consumer equipment. Personal control of dynamic range is placed in the hands of consumers. *OctiMax fixes the "Too LoudToo Quiet" audio problem so that consumers won't have to grab for the volume control when switching from MP3s to CDs, changing TV channels, or when the station cuts to a commercial*."

So it does not just boost quiet scenes like you stated, but does reduce vol spikes also. From using it I can tell you that is indeed the case as anyone can test it by flipping the bypass switch to see if the show was decreased in vol or increased by the Terk. Before anyone runs out and spends between $100 to $200 for something else, I would give the Terk using Octiv's Volume Logic/Optimax technology a try. If it does not work like you want it to and you are unhappy with its performance then just return it. Then go out and spend a few hundred $s to get the others mention before. You never know, one might save themselves a large chunk of change.


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## aejanis (Jun 14, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> What Tburt is referring to is sometimes called "upcompression", which is a method that involves bringing up the lower-level sounds while leaving the higher-level sounds alone. A normal compressor works by doing the opposite. Upcompression is used to extreme in mastering for pop music, so that records sound competitively louder than the next without actually going above a particular threshold. An upcompressed record will peak at 100 VU just like a normal track will, but the increased aggregate energy in the upcompressed track will make it be perceived as significantly louder. Since a normal compressor/limiter only works on bringing down the higher-level sounds to normal, when it encounters an upcompressed track it is not as effective as it would be compressing uncompressed tracks, and it takes very precise adjustment to realy be effective at all. Consumer units therefore don't do such a good job, and I think the Terk is particularly useless in this regard.


Before I start...everyone here is looking at this in very elementary form. There is a lot more to this then simple dB levels and compression.

Uncompression?! Nope, got it wrong. They are using compression to make things seem louder and to "smooth out audio". They compress the signal (usually through a multiband compressor).

You bring up "lower levels" by compressing the average levels "down" so when the low levels come along you have room to release on the compression to allow more signal to pass. The level that is "lost" on the typical audio due to the compressor is made up with gain after the compression.

To bring it down to understandable terms (it is really more complex then this)...Most engineers will want to compress about 10 to 15dB off of the signal. So a input level of 0dB will result in -10 to -15dB out of the compressor. That is then made up for in gain after the compressor (usually within the same processor). That way when a signal that is only -7dB comes into the compressor, it is now only compressing 2 to 8dB and the output side of the compressor has not changed. It has made up for the lower level by not compressing as hard. That is the "uncompression" that you are trying to explain.

It is a fact, that audio that has been compressed and run thru a composite clipper or look ahead limiter (like on the radio or tv) will sound much worse if you run it thru another processor to attempt to make it louder or (as the goal is here) more even in loudness level.

No record/recording will ever peak at 100 VU, it would peak at 0dB. VU is the meter used to monitor dB levels, which "peak" at 0dB or 100% modulation.

Also, keep in mind that there are NO professional audio processors (that means the TV Stations don't have them) that broadcasters are able to use on their broadcast audio chain for Dolby Digital 5.1 signals. If you are watching a program in DD5.1 it WILL be softer then the commercials. They are running it softer because they don't have a processor to protect the output of their transmitter from distortion in the Digital audio path.



TyroneShoes said:


> This is the same problem with commercials...they peak at the same level as program, but the aggregate energy is higher, so they SOUND much louder than program, even when they realy aren't. TV commercial producers know how to play this to their advantage. It's easy to sneak this kind of thing past audio engineers because virtually no equipment can detect it and it appears normal on most metering. REALLY GOOD audio engineers know to ignore the VU levels and use their ears to match perceived levels, but they rarely work in broadcasting, and automatic level controls aren't really applied well in broadcasting.


This is correct, the commercials are not any louder in dB then the program material. The peak to peak levels (the space between the peaks and valleys in the sound waves) are very tight on things that "seem louder", and on a VU meter will appear to be "pegged" at 0dB almost constantly. This gives you the feeling of it being louder, but it is not.

"REALLY GOOD" engineers (in a broadcast plant) MUST watch their meters. They CAN'T legally go above 100% modulation which is 0dB (radio and tv can go "whoops" to 105% modulation before the FCC will bark at them).

I do agree with the fact that ""automatic level controls"" [broadcast processors] are not very well applied in broadcasting. They (Optimods, Omnias, etc) are used (thanks to clear channel) as devices to ""gain market share"" by allowing said station to be the loudest "sounding" on the dial (while staying @ 0db output). These processors can work well when they are used as designed. However, radio stations are over using the processors to pull as much loudness as then can with the restrictions on output that the FCC gives them. While it makes the radio station curl the vinyl off your dashboard, all dynamic range in the program material is gone, and it sounds just plain bad....but we are in the age of Clear Channel, and the MP3, where people don't seem to care about quality because they think Clear Channel owned stations, and MP3's sound good 

Back to the commercials that are not really louder...but mostly just preceived as louder...to borrow a quote from Robert Orban (founder of Orban):


+3dB is double the power. In the midrange, +10dB is the generally 
accepted as causing a doubling of loudness.

The standard unit for loudness level is the _phon_ (which is closely related 
to dB, but are frequency-weighted according to the sensitivity of the ear). 
The familiar Fletcher-Munson curves (now updated as the Robinson/Dadson 
curves) show contours of constant loudness level (in phons), as a function 
of frequency. These curves apply ONLY to pure tones.

Subjective loudness (which is different than loudness _level_) is measured 
in _sones_. 1 sone is equal to the loudness level of a 1kHz tone at 40 
phons. The sone scale is proportional to perceived loudness and is therefore 
preferred for psychoacoustic work. (That is, 2 sones is twice a loud as 1 
sone; 4 sones is 4x as loud as 1 sone.)

Handbook for Sound Engineers: The New Audio Cyclopedia, pp. 31-33 has a 
succinct explanation of all of this, which requires a bit more writing than 
is practical to include in a post.

The bottom line: loudness is quite a complex phenomenon, being a function of 
frequency, the duration of impulsive sounds, the bandwidth occupied by a 
given amount of power, and whether the sound is "noiselike" or "tonelike."
​


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## Hodaka (Mar 12, 2005)

TVSR support tells me that I should not be seeing these problems and has offered to send me another unit free of charge before I go to the trouble of sending anything back for a refund. I'm going to take them up on their offer and hope that it was simply a bad unit. I'll post later when I get to test it..


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## bnm81002 (Oct 3, 2004)

aejanis said:


> Before I start...everyone here is looking at this in very elementary form. There is a lot more to this then simple dB levels and compression.
> 
> ok so will a Compressor/Limiter work with a DTivo unit to limit/compress the volume of sounds? thanks


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## aejanis (Jun 14, 2001)

bnm81002 said:


> aejanis said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


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## bnm81002 (Oct 3, 2004)

aejanis said:


> To some extent yes...but if the loudness is being caused by hard composite/look ahead limiting in the original source, then no.
> 
> It will only correct for stuff that is over/under in dB, not perceived loudness.


ok but isn't the volume regulator that is being sold, does the same thing as a compressor/limiter?
basically I am looking for something that will level the sound/volume on Directv channels, for example my local channel 4 is much louder than ESPN, there are other channels that are low and high, what would you recommend to level the volume? thanks


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

There are infinite applications of compression. Upcompression is one of them, and is becoming normal as far as mastering records and getting a "hot" radio signal are concerned. Regular compression reduces signal over a certain threshold by a certain percentage or ratio. Upcompression RAISES a signal UNDER a certain threshold by a certain percentage or ratio. That's the simplified explanation, anyway, and this is what makes them fundamentally different.

While the end result would seem to be fairly similar, it is not. The "knee" of regular compression is within the higher peaks, and when signals treated that way are recompressed by the equipment in a broadcast facility, it is a simple matter to have further significant control of both the level and the perceived level, because that equipment keys on higher levels, making recompressing it effective. On the other hand, upcompressed audio has its "knee" in the lower-level signals, and consequently, audio processed in that way is more difficult to recompress, and will slip by all of the automatic level control equipment at a TV or radio station without much change, because it can't distinguish between lower level sounds that are raised to higher levels, and the originally higher levels themselves. The bottom line is that normally-compressed audio is much easier to control broadcast levels on than upcompressed audio, and audio with upcompression will consequently sound louder at the receiver.

If you still doubt that this is the way things are, I suggest that you download the Waves Native Gold manuals, which are about 3" thick and explain this in excruciating detail. Any hobbyist or professional who has worked with this for any length of time already understands the significance of upcompression, and why it is used, and by who.

But we're getting off track. Upcompression can help explain why commercials sound louder and are harder to control at the broadcast level, but what we are really looking for is a consumer application that will help reverse this in our media rooms, and will make one source seem to be similarly loud (or soft) to the next one . There are three general categories of volume control that are applicable here other than simple gain, and they are compression, limiting, and level control. Limiters are like a brick wall or impenetrable ceiling that hold peak excursions over a threshold to a precise limit. That is fundamentally different from compression, but the two together can be effective, and in fact every TV or radio program broadcast contains sources that have been compressed and limited sometimes many times.

What folks are actually interested in here is automatic level control. While this is basically the same process as compression, the difference is in the attack and release modes. Compression operates in milliseconds, while ALC operates much slower...a 3 second response is typical. Since what folks are looking for is for one channel or one commercial to be essentially the same level as the next, ALC is the true application that makes sense. A compressor can usually be set to parameters that will allow this, and most of the "volume stabilizer" units for consumers are pre-set to such parameters.

Bottom line, the off-the-shelf units sometimes do a good job (sometimes not) but a general compressor/limiter such as the ones described in the posts above can be adapted to do much the same thing. While the consumer boxes take little adjustment, they are limited in their effectiveness, but only slightly. Pro compression equipment can actually do a better job, but requires precise adjustment to get there. IOW, you have to have a good idea what you are doing. If you own a comp/limiter that you are not using elsewhere, you probably already have developed some skill in applying it, so it would make sense to give that a try. If not, the Sima and TVSR units will do the job, and for a low price and little skill requirement.


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## Tburt (Nov 29, 2004)

aejanis said:


> bnm81002 said:
> 
> 
> > To some extent yes...but if the loudness is being caused by hard composite/look ahead limiting in the original source, then no.
> ...


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Tburt said:


> aejanis said:
> 
> 
> > My family owns many Terk volumn control devices...I can tell you it does more than "to some extent" to control the Directv booming... With the Terk in place that problem has been solved. For ~$30 to $50 bucks, it is well worth a try.
> ...


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## Stephen M. Smith (Mar 22, 2005)

This is something that's always bothered me too. Why on earth can't DirecTv stabalize the volume levels of all their channels in that big satellite center thing in Colorado (I think) that the feature in their marketing brochures?

It would also be nice if they could stabilize the video as well. Eg. if you have the distant networks, you know what I mean by comparing ABC east w/ABC west...


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## Hodaka (Mar 12, 2005)

I got an email that my replacement TVSR will go out today.. again, I'll let you all know if this fixes the problem when it arrives..*crosses fingers*


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## Tburt (Nov 29, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> Tburt said:
> 
> 
> > So by that I guess I can infer that since I have tried it, it's OK to knock it. As I posted before, I have owned all three of the main consumer units available. The Sima worked the best, the TVSR worked almost as well, and the Terk was a very distant third in this race.
> ...


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## Tburt (Nov 29, 2004)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> This is something that's always bothered me too. Why on earth can't DirecTv stabalize the volume levels of all their channels in that big satellite center thing in Colorado (I think) that the feature in their marketing brochures?
> 
> It would also be nice if they could stabilize the video as well. Eg. if you have the distant networks, you know what I mean by comparing ABC east w/ABC west...


That was the biggest pet peeve with Directv and myself. That is why I tried the Terk (and I am happy with it). If you have thousands spent on your TV setup, then go for the most expensive unit, otherwise try one of the volumn control cheaper units. It makes a difference in watching tv.


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## Hodaka (Mar 12, 2005)

well, I got my new TVSR, and it causes the same hum problems and the same amplified background noises in my wife's soaps, so I guess I'm just going to get an RMA and get my money back..


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## GabUsa (Mar 10, 2006)

Does someone know about a software that could process mpg files and normalize audio. I Have a lot of music video clips and I would like to have a steady volume when looking at my video clips. They have been recorded from different sources and all have a different volume level.


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## GabUsa (Mar 10, 2006)

Does someone know about a software that could process mpg files and normalize audio. I Have a lot of music video clips and I would like to have a steady volume when looking at my video clips. They have been recorded from different sources and all have a different volume level.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

bnm81002 said:


> is there a way that I can level out the sound/volume on the channels of Directv? some channels are louder than others, I would like to stabilize a set level for the volume for all the channels, is there a device that I can get that will do this for me? or is there a "hack" that would also do this? thanks in advance


Sony Wega TV's have had sound leveling capability for almost the last six plus years and it works very good. The only time I notice a difference in sound levels is when one of the kids have turned it off.

If you have a Sony Wega TV or some other brand that has the capability, check your TV menu and turn it on.


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## boteman (May 31, 2006)

I was disappointed that the Terk VR-1 that I just purchased does not work the same as the two older units that have worked well for about a year.

After sitting with silence waiting for audio to come through, when it finally gets some audio to process it exhibits a loud 'tick' and the compressor drives all the way down and slowly comes back up, so I miss the first few syllables when this happens. Plus it's downright annoying.

Audiovox must have changed the operation of the VR-1, this time for the worse. I will be returning this latest purchase and not buying another one since this is already a replacement unit. I got an RMA for the one that I bought at the beginning of the month that did the exact same thing, so it must be a design change. Buyer beware.


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