# Would new TIVO's sell now?



## BrAinZ (Nov 26, 2002)

I know this question comes up every so often, but it drives me mad that TIVO doesn't re-launch in the UK.

I feel the problem originally was that TIVO was way ahead of it's time in the UK (along with relatively high price). Thing is over time, the general public now understand the concept of a PVR much more widely.

The infrastructure for the TIVO service is already in place, and the hardware costs must have dropped dramatically.

So surely it makes sense at some point to relaunch the product/service? Just seems so logical to me.

What have I missed?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

BrAinZ said:


> So surely it makes sense at some point to relaunch the product/service? Just seems so logical to me.
> 
> What have I missed?


Perhaps what you have missed but the board of Tivo Inc has not is that Freeview Playback is coming in stages over the next 12 to 18 months and will provide PVR boxes with PDC like adjustment of recordings to the moment when they actually start and end (although this creates a lot of knock on consequences if a box only has two tuners and needs to record two overlapping programs neither of which are on time) and more importantly with a possibly 14 day Freeview EPG with Metadata that will definitely permit something very like Season Passes and possibly some variation on Wishlists that does not infringe Tivo patents.

See this discussion thread in the DigitalSpy Freeview Forum:-

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=462709

Add to this the fact that the forthcoming Freeview Playback 2 week EPG and Metadata will be provided by broadcasters without a subscription fee and you get to the reasons why Tivo probably think their service will not work commercially on the Freeview platform.

As to NTL and Sky unfortunately thera are 101 anticompetitive commercial reasons to do with those companies probably not allowing their HD Tv data to be output to third party boxes that make providing a viable third party service platform there difficult. In particular all this digital rights management stuff would be a real pain. Of course may be Ofcom (highly unlikely as they are a totally bloody useless organisation) or more likely the EU commission will eventually investigate and demand that Sky and NTL/Telewest let third party boxes enter the market that do not use Sky or NTL/Telewest's own proprietary software and EPG and/or or have a marketing agreement with Sky/NTL.

So unfortunately I think for now these are the reasons why Tivo probably will not re-enter the UK marketplace, even though I would love to see them do so.


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## aleks (Mar 22, 2001)

One of TiVo's USPs will disappear as the Freeview EPG data improves over the next few weeks - Sky will follow too.

The main advantage of TiVo now is the easy to use interface and the flexibility it has when dealing with conflicts by recording episodes across different channels. However exploiting that requires a different business model the one that TiVo had originally. Now all they can do is sell scheduling software rather than subscriptions to a listing service, which is a lot less turnover.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

aleks said:


> Now all they can do is sell scheduling software rather than subscriptions to a listing service, which is a lot less turnover.


Tivo should have tried to become the scheduling engine for Freeview Playback as there are potentially millions of those units involved but unfortunately Joe Public hasn't ever had Tivo and so doesn't know what he is missing and so will put up with the low quality alternative that he will get instead because it is still much better than the VHS video recorder he was previously used to..............................

Tivo should have stayed in the UK marketplace in 2002 just as they pulled out and started selling their boxes exclusively for the Freeview platform. At that stage there were still 5 years to go until a decent Freeview EPG and Metadata would come along and so their boxes would have sold like hotcakes and their service would have become established.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

I have no doubt that the Freeview Playback system will be a) pants and b) bug-ridden, just like all the other so-called alternatives out there. 

There will, of course, be those who will buy it, but I suspect that like Sky+ and SkyHD the drop-off rate will be very high. What's the drop-off rate of new TiVo owners? Almost nothing I'll bet - and with good reason. 

Regardless of what else is out there, a properly targeted and sensibly priced Series 2 (or even Series 3) Tivo would clean up in the UK. Period.


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## The Bear (Sep 19, 2006)

I've mentioned my new Tivo to several friends and family and the general concensus is "Oh Sky+ does that".

I think for that reason alone it wouldn't sell. Especialy with so many people already having Sky packages installed in their homes.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> I have no doubt that the Freeview Playback system will be a) pants and b) bug-ridden, just like all the other so-called alternatives out there.
> 
> There will, of course, be those who will buy it, but I suspect that like Sky+ and SkyHD the drop-off rate will be very high. What's the drop-off rate of new TiVo owners? Almost nothing I'll bet - and with good reason.
> 
> Regardless of what else is out there, a properly targeted and sensibly priced Series 2 (or even Series 3) Tivo would clean up in the UK. Period.


I suspect if Tivo come back to the UK they will need to have a plan for hitting most of the big five Western European nations (UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain) including handling the multilingual aspects of the software and call centre support and the different EPG issues and most common broadcasting platforms in each country.

I don't think the setup costs of a UK only Tivo operation would be worth it given the size of the marketplace.

However I have a terrible fear that as cheap and nasty so often win the day and as Mr and Mrs Average will be content with just a less messy version of the VCR without all that hassle with the cassettes and a tape that runs out that unfortunately Tivo will be put out of business by both cheap and nasty solutions like Sky HD and Telewest TV Drive and also by more infinitely scalable solutions like Windows MCE for those who care and want more sophistication. I reckon a software only version of Tivo that integrated with Windows MCE might be where things are headed for in the long run although probably Tivo will continue cranking out dedicated boxes in the USA where the brand is already very well established.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

The Bear said:


> I've mentioned my new Tivo to several friends and family and the general concensus is "Oh Sky+ does that".


And in due course those who don't want to pay monthly subs will think "Oh Freeview Playback does that and is the Freeview version of Sky+"


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

The Bear said:


> I've mentioned my new Tivo to several friends and family and the general concensus is "Oh Sky+ does that".


Have you _shown_ them your TiVo in action?

The overwhelming reaction I've seen from Sky+ owners when demonstrated the TiVo functionality (SPs, wishlists, Advanced wishlists, TiVoWeb, etc.) is a dropped jaw, followed by an embarrassed "are they still for sale?"


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> The overwhelming reaction I've seen from Sky+ owners when demonstrated the TiVo functionality (SPs, wishlists, Advanced wishlists, TiVoWeb, etc.) is a dropped jaw, followed by an embarrassed "are they still for sale?"


That was Tivo's fatal mistake in 2000-2002.

If they could have let customers take one away for say a 60 days trial and allowed a full refund within that period if a customer wasn't totally delighted but subject to say a £25 admin fee (to stop total timewasters who had no intention of buying) then I and many other people who weren't quite sure what a Tivo did but had OnDigital or Sky or Cable would have taken one away on the minimum risk basis and then almost never would they have returned the unit within the 60 days.

Instead at the Currys I saw a Tivo in there was no clear explanation of whether it worked with OnDigital (looked like it was only for Sky Digital) and the Tivo was not hooked up to a telly to demonstrate its interface or how it worked.

Sky of course already have an established name which is quite a different situation for marketing Sky+ no matter how shoddy the actual product.


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## B33K34 (Feb 9, 2003)

blindlemon said:


> I have no doubt that the Freeview Playback system will be a) pants and b) bug-ridden, just like all the other so-called alternatives out there.
> 
> There will, of course, be those who will buy it, but I suspect that like Sky+ and SkyHD the drop-off rate will be very high.


Which is why recent research shows less than 15% of viewing in PVR households in non-live whereas nearly all viewing in my household is Tivo'd and the thought of living without it filled me with dread last night when it was bluescreeened.


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## HappyHiker (May 20, 2002)

I have a freeview PVR and a tivo. The PVR (DVR) is a topfield with some taps(user added programs) that give it basic season pass and limited wish list capabilities, it also has twin tuners, which is suprisign useful. The extra EPG data will no doubt improve that. 
However, its the Tivo thats downstairs hooked up to the plasma despite the slightly degraded picture quality. The main reason for that is Topfield won't handle Sky or an external box. But the other difference is over 4 years with a Tivo I record loads of stuff, but have no idea when its on or any concept of the tv schedule, it just works. On the down side I suppose this means I don't catch tv by chance, but what I don't know about I don't miss.

The topfield is great, but I need to look at the tv channel and the schedules to use it. So where as its great as a VCR, it wouldn't have chaged the way I watch telly, where as Tivo did.

The thing is HD, improved Freview guide or Topfield handling Sky could make me leave the tivo behind, the topfield does everything I want, its just I'm now used to the tivo doing everything I want without me even telling it to.
But if I'd never had that I wouldn't care. I don't think its enough to make a £10 a month subscription worth while(though obviously I'm really on Lifetime). If Tivo came back they'd need something exceptional to make them stand out.

What beats me is why the freeview PVR's don't add an external source recorder - though I suppose it will still miss the epg.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

HappyHiker said:


> On the down side I suppose this means I don't catch tv by chance, but what I don't know about I don't miss.


If you have the Radio Times Highlights module for Tivoweb you will then find it easy to learn about and set to record loads of other extremely important and worthy sounding series that you then never have the time to ever get round to actually watching. 

I think a Freeview Playback PVR with PDC style program start/end synchronisation and a Season Pass that worked plus ideally a simple Wislist functionality would do most of what Tivo does that most people actually use. Of course BT's still to be launched Freeview and Broadband Tv combined PVR with last week's worth of Freeview programs available on demand may do that too although personally speaking I often watch a program stored on my Tivo recorded several weeks ago.

The thing is that with PDC start/stop program synchronisation you would need at least three tuners in the box. One for the current program and one for the immediately next program (which will frequently overlap due to not running on time and PDC spotting this and needing to use a tuner for each) and one for live tv programs so the kids don't shout about Nick Junior going off air. Or may be you even need five tuners in case there are ever two conflicting programs that finish at the same time and then two more that start at the same time immediately afterwards. Factor in PDC adjustment and the programs not running on time and you end up with needing a total of five tuners including one for the live tv channel. But then may be the video on demand broadband tv archive program for the next whole week is simpler?


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## wonderboy (May 27, 2003)

For me, the tivo suggestions work very well and I would really miss them. I personally can't be arsed telling tivo to record this and that so I end up watching a lot of it's suggestions.

So unless something else does a 'thumbs' thingy then it's NEVER be as dear to me as my good friend Tivo...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

wonderboy said:


> For me, the tivo suggestions work very well and I would really miss them. I personally can't be arsed telling tivo to record this and that so I end up watching a lot of it's suggestions.
> 
> So unless something else does a 'thumbs' thingy then it's NEVER be as dear to me as my good friend Tivo...


I found the the Suggestions Tivo records under its own steam to not be so useful mainly because I always let my Tivo fill up with Save Until I Delete recordings I mean to get round to watching later but never find time for. In that state only one or two Suggestions record when I have recently deleted something and are then replaced with other suggestions within a few hours. For Suggestions to work properly you would really need to be able to assign a certain percentage of disk space to them with a large hard drive(s) in the machine and Now Playing would need to be improved to let you view Suggestions alongside programs you told Tivo to record rather than chronologically out of order at the other end of Now Playing.

However I do find the Suggestions function in Pick Programs to Record helpful and it quite often turns up programs I would never have otherwise heard of or thought of Recording. And of course those Suggestions get recorded as normal recordings in Now Playing rather than lurking hidden at the bottom of the Now Playing list.

As a single person household Tivo user I find the suggestions it records perfectly reasonable as they heavily factual and documentary type series that I like plus things in the motoring and motor sports area to which I have given several Three Thumbs Up. Of course there are plenty of programs that Suggestions picks that I don't like but they do all seem to be in a certain specific program area that aligns with my outline viewing tastes and amongst the programs recorded by Suggestions or that I set to record from the Suggestions function in Pick Programs to Record there are some very good matches indeed with my own viewing tastes.

I think those who find Suggestions don't work at all for them generally have a Tivo used by several different household members who all assign their own confliciting thumbs ratings.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

Sadly I think a UK TiVo might have to be marketed as a high-end solution.

The Kaleidescape system is now sold in the UK as well as the USA, and is a bit like TiVo for DVD collections. They start at £17k.

I would argue that as TiVo is so far ahead of its competition that it should charge a premium that well-heeled enthusiasts would be prepared to pay for.

Joe Bloggs is probably unaware or doesn't seem to want to pay the premium for TiVo's advantages.

So a 2k to 20k high def UK S3 unit or system might be viable.

Sadly that probably rules out the likes of everyone on the UK forum, though I could afford the bottom end £2k to £3k unit


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cyril said:


> Sadly that probably rules out the likes of everyone on the UK forum, though I could afford the bottom end £2k to £3k unit


In view of the price of the units in the US and the cost of alternatives like MCE and in due course Freeview Playback I really can't see being prepared to pay more than £300 or so for a next generation Tivo box.

Being just in the final stages of installing TivoWeb Plus alongside Tivo I notice that has a built in function for recording conflicting programs on a second box. Now assuming I can get that to work and can pick up a cheap unsubscribed Tivo some time on Ebay then Tivo will really do everything I want it to aside in theory from HDTV but a present I'm not prepared to pay over £500 a year in subscriptions for the privilege of HDTV.

So really for now a Tivo S1 does everything I need it to.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> In view of the price of the units in the US and the cost of alternatives like MCE and in due course Freeview Playback I really can't see being prepared to pay more than £300 or so for a next generation Tivo box.


The series 3 sells for $800 in the USA, so I guess it would be about £700 if we had the same unit.

I am saying that there is a market for something that's much better than both SkyHD and MCE, so a TiVo series 4 would fit that bill quite nicely here in the UK.

If Kaleidescape can sell £30k DVD systems than TiVo can also sell high end systems here.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cyril said:


> If Kaleidescape can sell £30k DVD systems than TiVo can also sell high end systems here.


Are Kaleidescope's products aimed at retail customers or intended for business and commercial use?

I can't see many in the £30k market apart from customers at Harrods! Even the high end Plasma/LCD market tails off around £3k.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Being just in the final stages of installing TivoWeb Plus alongside Tivo I notice that has a built in function for recording conflicting programs on a second box. Now assuming I can get that to work and can pick up a cheap unsubscribed Tivo some time on Ebay then Tivo will really do everything I want it to aside in theory from HDTV but a present I'm not prepared to pay over £500 a year in subscriptions for the privilege of HDTV.


HDTV doesn't cost £500 a year, it's £120 ayear of you already have the sky channels of £0 a year if you just want the BBC.

I don't know what's in TWP, but if its a version my module for conflict resolution then it doesn't work on an unsubscribed Tivo.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

sanderton said:


> HDTV doesn't cost £500 a year, it's £120 ayear of you already have the sky channels of £0 a year if you just want the BBC.


Surely to have Sky HD channels for only a further £10 per month you already have to be taking a package at around £37 per month (6 Mixes plus 2 Premium channels) So your £37 per month then becomes £47 per month which is £564 per annum in subs. Then £299 for the box I believe? Or is it more for existing Sky subscribers. So £863 in year 1 and £564 per annum thereafter.

In fact the top Sky package if all sports and premium channels and all mixes is £43.50 per month + £10 for Sky HD as Sky Plus sub is thrown in (how generous!) at this level. So 12 x £53.50 = £642 in Year 1 for the subs + £299 for the new Sky HD box + £60 instllation for a Sky HD box. Oh my giddy aunt that's £1,001 to pay for the Sky HD box and subs in Year 1 and £642 thereafter. And I see you don't seem to be allowed a second Sky HD box on their Multiroom plan for another £120 a box a year.

Now compare this with me who finds their total Sky subs per annum on their unsubscribed Sky Digibox with working card for the FTV channels connected to my Tivo is precisely £0 per annum.

Now technically speaking the BBC HD stuff is free but there is no FreesatFromSky deal for a Sky HD box so you would be left with the subscribing for 1 year option above and then desubscribing but hardly worth it just for the limited BBC HD output at present?

So yes if you are already signed up to the idea of paying Sky £500 a year or so in subs then Sky HD will only cost you £120 per annum extra for the privilege of an infinitely worse recording interface than Tivo although with better picture quality. But for those of us who not subscribe to Sky we are talking about mega bucks.

Speaking personally I would rather stick a couple of 500Gb drives in my Tivo and live without HD until it becomes more affordable for those who don't pay Sky subs.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

I did say "if you already have the Sky channels". Obviously if you don't think Sky Sports/Movies/One are worth paying for in SD you are unlikely to think they are worth paying for in HD.

You can buy a non-Sky box to get the BBC with no sub.

Everyone has to make their own value judgement. For me, £120 to run my HDTV at its full potential was well worth it. YMMV.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

sanderton said:


> I don't know what's in TWP, but if its a version my module for conflict resolution then it doesn't work on an unsubscribed Tivo.


Looks like they modified it so it will work with an unsubbed "slave" TiVo with the same channel line up. My original was intended to be use with two independenet machines.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

sanderton said:


> Looks like they modified it so it will work with an unsubbed "slave" TiVo with the same channel line up. My original was intended to be use with two independenet machines.


I think I may just have misunderstood how it worked and that it could well still require a second subbed machine, although there again those Tivoweb Plus guys in Oz and NZ don't pay any subs anyway and use all third party data??


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> Are Kaleidescope's products aimed at retail customers or intended for business and commercial use?
> 
> I can't see many in the £30k market apart from customers at Harrods! Even the high end Plasma/LCD market tails off around £3k.


Judging from http://www.kaleidescape.com/ I guess well-heeled yacht owners.

Probably millionaire home cinema enthusiasts or residents of Kensington and Chelsea, since a small 2 bed flat can now cost a million quid and £1900 per square foot.

Even though plasmas now start to tail off around 3k , you can spend another 3k to £20k on a video processor to go with it. High end projectors are still £20k.
My plasma retails for £9k (Fujitsu P63xha51). LG charge £50k for their over-priced 71" plasma.

As plasmas were £20k when first released home cinema enthusiasts now have a lot more money to spend on other kit 

A nice upscaling DVD player at £1.2k can now be beaten by a HD-DVD player costing £350.

There is a section on AVSFORUM.com for $20k+ home cinema equipment.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=7&f=86

Well at least we can look forward to a Kaleidescape system that costs £300 in 15 years time


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## BrAinZ (Nov 26, 2002)

Interesting debate, I hadn't actually heard of the Freeview Playback system, which may well be a rival to TIVO.

In the meantime, I guess it doesn't look like any newer TIVO's for us in the UK


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

BrAinZ said:


> Interesting debate, I hadn't actually heard of the Freeview Playback system, which may well be a rival to TIVO.


That's because Freeview Playback hasn't been launched on the high street yet.

You will hear a lot more about it when the boxes are available next year and probably even more when they support Season Passes rather than just direct program selection from the EPG.

Of course it won't be a patch on Tivo but then you have to allow for Mr and Mrs Average not being as sophisticated or demanding as most Tivo users and probably being happy with what looks like a larger capacity better featured and larger capacity video recorder.


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