# new directv tivo delayed until "late 2010"



## tivoknucklehead

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-04/cnet-interviews-tivo-ceo-no-surprises/


----------



## nrc

What he actually said was "by the latter part of this year". That may be news to Dave, but it's the same thing Rogers said in their January earnings conference call.


----------



## Win Joy Jr

Sigh......


----------



## shibby191

nrc said:


> What he actually said was "by the latter part of this year". That may be news to Dave, but it's the same thing Rogers said in their January earnings conference call.


Yo got it, nothing new. We've been talking about it in other threads for nearly 4 months now.


----------



## litzdog911

We probably don't need yet another thread about this. Continue the discussion and rumors here ....
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=418813


----------



## davezatz

nrc said:


> What he actually said was "by the latter part of this year". That may be news to Dave, but it's the same thing Rogers said in their January earnings conference call.


Yep, before I blogged this AM I did my due diligence and scanned that very transcript. Not sure why I missed it earlier this year, maybe I was busy at work that day or on travel. But I figured if I missed, there could be others. My new motto will be, "Yesterday's news, today!"


----------



## tivoknucklehead

litzdog911 said:


> We probably don't need yet another thread about this. Continue the discussion and rumors here ....
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=418813


considering that thread is in a different subforum I did not see it


----------



## Colby

litzdog911 said:


> We probably don't need yet another thread about this. Continue the discussion and rumors here ....
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=418813


Give me a break, the OP was right to start a new thread. I'm not wading through 20 pages of unrelated material to find out the latest news.


----------



## shibby191

I think he was just letting the OP know that we've known this since January as Tivo announced it then and have been talking about it in other threads since. No biggy.


----------



## litzdog911

Colby said:


> Give me a break, the OP was right to start a new thread. I'm not wading through 20 pages of unrelated material to find out the latest news.


Just trying to keep the discussion in one place. No need to spawn a dozen "when's the new HD Tivo coming" threads."

No biggie


----------



## TyroneShoes

It does give us the opportunity to ask a burning question, which is "what's the holdup?".

No one who's talking knows, but by a process of elimination we can assume what is NOT the holdup:

1) MPEG-4 decoder chips. Well, that pipeline has been flowing steadily for 2 and a half years now. Probably not a factor. Neither is testing how well they work with DTV MPEG-4 signals, I would imagine.

2) GUI design. Tivo nailed this about 10 years ago with v3.0, which also worked well with DTV in the DTivos, both SD and HD. The latest permutation of the OS is of course the "Premiere", which has been shipping for a while now. I can't imagine much more to conquer on that front regarding the new DTivo.

3) Political roadblocks. Seems as if the weight of the DISH decision should have greased the skids pretty well. DTV and Tivo have been partnered for many years now, and there can't be a lot of sticking points in implementation left.

So what remains that is holding this process up?


----------



## Atomic Buffalo

I think every time a DirecTV Tivo owner gives up and gets a DirecTV DVR, Mr. Rogers must die a little inside.

I figure DirecTV has more to do with the delay than Tivo, so when I moved last month, I quit DirecTV and made it very clear they were losing an 8-year customer because they didn't have Tivo and I was tired of waiting.

And it sounds like the new DirecTV Tivo will be last year's Tivo, i.e. not the Premiere feature set; if so, they're just perpetuating the red-headed-stepchild treatment.


----------



## shibby191

TyroneShoes said:


> So what remains that is holding this process up?


Well, we've hashed this over in other threads but to me it's obvious: 
Tivo can't get anything out on time, ever, it seems.

Nothing more complicated then that.

Only other reasonable explanation is that Tivo wanted to wait and put it on HR24s only for the extra speed and the HR24s are just now shipping in volume. But that doesn't really fly since if this is the reason, why does Tivo need to delay yet another 6-9 months?

I highly doubt DirecTV is behind any delay because of two reasons:
1) They could care less either way since the deal to them was simply all about the no sue clause
2) If they were indeed "stalling" for something other then a legitimate technical reason (Tivo can't get VOD working and DirecTV won't ship without VOD working for example) I'd think Tivo would have been crying about it by now to keep their investors from jumping ship or driving the stock price down. Especially with the pretty poor Premier launch.


----------



## shibby191

Atomic Buffalo said:


> I
> And it sounds like the new DirecTV Tivo will be last year's Tivo, i.e. not the Premiere feature set; if so, they're just perpetuating the red-headed-stepchild treatment.


Well, I'm sure DirecTV would welcome the Premier GUI (if it wasn't so buggy and darn slow) but Tivo has made the decision to use the "classic" GUI according to the CEO. I'd highly doubt DirecTV cares either way, why would they.

And of course the DirecTivo is going to get second hand treatment by DirecTV. The only thing they really cared about in the new deal was the no sue clause. This new DirecTivo HD project was most likely Tivo insisting they be able to build one or else they wouldn't reup the no sue clause. Much cheaper and better for DirecTV to let Tivo make a new box and sell it at a premium then to be vulnerable to possible hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in litigation (see Dish). 

** Oh yes, before I get yelled at, the above 2 posts are obviously *my opinion* on the situation.


----------



## litzdog911

shibby191 said:


> Well, we've hashed this over in other threads but to me it's obvious:
> Tivo can't get anything out on time, ever, it seems.
> 
> Nothing more complicated then that.
> 
> Only other reasonable explanation is that Tivo wanted to wait and put it on HR24s only for the extra speed and the HR24s are just now shipping in volume. But that doesn't really fly since if this is the reason, why does Tivo need to delay yet another 6-9 months?
> 
> I highly doubt DirecTV is behind any delay because of two reasons:
> 1) They could care less either way since the deal to them was simply all about the no sue clause
> 2) If they were indeed "stalling" for something other then a legitimate technical reason (Tivo can't get VOD working and DirecTV won't ship without VOD working for example) I'd think Tivo would have been crying about it by now to keep their investors from jumping ship or driving the stock price down. Especially with the pretty poor Premier launch.


Agreed. Tivo always seems to overpromise and underdeliver.


----------



## cbessant

IMHO, the DirecTiVo delay is all about "Business testosterone" between TiVo and DirecTv.

It ain't rock science to create a new HD TiVo unit. They've (both companies) already created a platform that works with DirecTv and HD (albeit MPEG2, MPEG4 can't be that much more complex with a new ASIC or software given TiVo has MPEG4.) They've (both companies) have the GUI. Someone did mention TiVo's Premiere unit has a sluggish GUI, and _MAYBE_ DirecTv is pushing to have this fixed (what are the odds...???)

Sure, the new DirecTiVo will probably cost more than a DTV DVR. FINE! Apple gets away with charging a premium compared to a PC.

Is this about TiVo taking aim to sue DirecTv over their own DVR? IMHO, probably so. Eventually TiVo will run out of people to sue over DVR patent infringements and will need to grow their subscription base.

Listen up children - JUST DO IT, or TiVo, file a lawsuit to get DirecTv's attention to pee or get off the pot.


----------



## Matt L

Atomic Buffalo said:


> I think every time a DirecTV Tivo owner gives up and gets a DirecTV DVR, Mr. Rogers must die a little inside.
> 
> I figure DirecTV has more to do with the delay than Tivo, so when I moved last month, I quit DirecTV and made it very clear they were losing an 8-year customer because they didn't have Tivo and I was tired of waiting.
> 
> And it sounds like the new DirecTV Tivo will be last year's Tivo, i.e. not the Premiere feature set; if so, they're just perpetuating the red-headed-stepchild treatment.


In all honesty do yo think they really care? The remaining TiVo crowd is so small they likely add that many new customers in a month. If the TiVo interface is _that_ important to you get a regular TiVo which it sounds like you did. D really does not care about you. D does not really care about TiVo.


----------



## samo

It is really very simple. New DirecTiVo is promised to be premium DVR. In order to fit the bill it has to do everything DirecTV HR2X does plus some extras like kid's zone or suggestions. If current DirecTV customers (not TiVo fan-boys, just regular subscribers) get what is sold as "premium" DVR and it is missing features like streaming they would be very much pissed off. So TiVo is working on implementing DirecTV features and as always they are late. Plain and simple.


----------



## Wil

samo said:


> It is really very simple. New DirecTiVo is promised to be premium DVR. In order to fit the bill it has to do everything DirecTV HR2X does plus some extras like kid's zone or suggestions. If current DirecTV customers (not TiVo fan-boys, just regular subscribers) get what is sold as "premium" DVR and it is missing features like streaming they would be very much pissed off. So TiVo is working on implementing DirecTV features and as always they are late. Plain and simple.


"DirecTV=GOOD. Tivo=BAD". Don't bother replying to specific messages anymore, just post this 4-5 times a day in our faces in this Tivo forum. We get it.

I don't understand the PR process. On the DirecTV forums there are anti-DirecTV messages, sure, but moderately. Yet here you are (all 6 of you) 24X7. Has Earl hired all of you?


----------



## ErliDayz

For my 2 cents - The one thing I miss the most on the HR23-700 is the "Live TV" button that allows me to change tuners. I like to let one tuner save a show while I watch the other tuner. Then I can EASILY switch back and forth between stations, speed through commercials and just watch the races, golf or football. Cuts about half the time out of a auto race or football game.

The HR24 has no way to change tuners and allow one to pre-save without actually recording the whole show.

My 2 My cents worth for the moment.


----------



## cbessant

Real simple: It is time DirecTv be treated like cable, and be forced to offer an open "cable card" like incumbent cable companies, and just open up the market to 3rd party vendor devices. DirecTv and Dish are making the same stupid arguments that didn't fly with the FCC years ago. This would allow TiVo to offer a device in a free market. 

DirecTv and Dish do not have to have protected status anymore. They can already freely compete in any market, and have proved they can compete well, whereas cable is given a franchise in each market with closed access to their market, and they must offer a cable card.

I am not a huge government regulator guy, but satellite vendors have proved they don't care about consumers and that consumers and 3rd party vendors are not given the same options as cable customers have. I see zero difference so FCC, please just do it.


----------



## shibby191

ErliDayz said:


> For my 2 cents - The one thing I miss the most on the HR23-700 is the "Live TV" button that allows me to change tuners. I like to let one tuner save a show while I watch the other tuner. Then I can EASILY switch back and forth between stations, speed through commercials and just watch the races, golf or football. Cuts about half the time out of a auto race or football game.
> 
> The HR24 has no way to change tuners and allow one to pre-save without actually recording the whole show.
> 
> My 2 My cents worth for the moment.


I guess you missed it that the HR2x series has had dual tuners for a long time now, at least a year. They call it "double play". Hit your down arrow twice to activate and now you can swap between 2 channels, each with 90 minute buffers with the down arrow just like on a Tivo. So you can have the race on one tuner and the football game on the other just like Tivo. It's just on the HR2x you have one extra down arrow press to activate it.


----------



## ErliDayz

shibby191 said:


> I guess you missed it that the HR2x series has had dual tuners for a long time now, at least a year. They call it "double play". Hit your down arrow twice to activate and now you can swap between 2 channels, each with 90 minute buffers with the down arrow just like on a Tivo. So you can have the race on one tuner and the football game on the other just like Tivo. It's just on the HR2x you have one extra down arrow press to activate it.


Thank you. That solves the one issue I had with the unit. The installer told me that there was no such feature on the unit. Good days are here again.

Well, it would also be good if I could pause the program on tuner 1, go to tuner 2 and watch - pause and return to tuner 1 - un-pause and watch. The only thing missing right now is the pause function that stays on when tuners are changed. Don't have that, do we?


----------



## HiDefGator

litzdog911 said:


> Agreed. Tivo always seems to overpromise and underdeliver.


Tivo has spent the last 3 years trying to not spend money. That could not have helped their technical staff. I don't see how they could have the engineering staff in place today to work on ComcasTivo, DirecTivo, RCN Tivo, Premiere, etc. all at the same time.


----------



## sluciani

HiDefGator said:


> Tivo has spent the last 3 years trying to not spend money. That could not have helped their technical staff. I don't see how they could have the engineering staff in place today to work on ComcasTivo, DirecTivo, RCN Tivo, Premiere, etc. all at the same time.


Based on public filings, DirecTV paid TiVo many _millions_ of dollars in 2009 as part of their contractual agreement to fund development of the new DirecTiVo box.


----------



## shibby191

ErliDayz said:


> Thank you. That solves the one issue I had with the unit. The installer told me that there was no such feature on the unit. Good days are here again.
> 
> Well, it would also be good if I could pause the program on tuner 1, go to tuner 2 and watch - pause and return to tuner 1 - un-pause and watch. The only thing missing right now is the pause function that stays on when tuners are changed. Don't have that, do we?


You can most definitely pause both buffers (not sure why you wouldn't be able to). In fact if I remember correctly when you swap tuners it will autopause for you and when you return to the tuner it will autoplay from that pause point. Someone will need to confirm or you could ask over on DBSTalk. Basically with DirecTV you have all the functionality of Tivo's dual buffers plus some extras.


----------



## ErliDayz

OK - I think that answers all of my issues and questions. 

Thanks !


----------



## TyroneShoes

cbessant said:


> ...Sure, the new DirecTiVo will probably cost more than a DTV DVR. FINE! Apple gets away with charging a premium compared to a PC...


"Gets away with"? Apple, just like every other company, can only "get away with" charging what the free market will bear. If Macs were equivalent to PCs, Apple would be quickly out of business, because no person in their right mind would buy the equivalent computer at an inflated price. This must mean that a Macintosh running the MacOS is perceived by a substantial subset of buyers as being a premium device. As Apple is the most-respected if not the most-successful tech company that ever walked the planet, I do not doubt that to be the truth.

But this implies that the vaporware DTivo must also be a premium device, assuming it will cost subscribers more. As good as the HR2x already is, as fast as it has improved both in reliability and features, and as problem-plagued as recent Tivo offerrings have been, I'd have to say that they really have their work cut out for them.

If it takes time to do that, so be it. I think we all want a DTivo that meets expectations, and none of us want it to ship half-baked, as the HR2x originally did. While I still consider that a colossally-boneheaded mistake, the HR2x could afford to do that, seeing as how its competition was being de-nutted by virtue of 140 HD channels that were exclusive to the HR2x.

For Tivo it is a completely different scenario. Tivo can't afford to not produce a premium product, or at least one that is perceived as premium, because the cheaper, possibly better alternative is already out there, and firmly entrenched. They have one shot to hit a bottom-of-the-ninth grand slam home run; a double or a couple singles just won't do it.

But time is really not on their side; the HR2x gets better every day, and there will be a point where if the competitor is already terrific, then perfect won't be all that much better.


----------



## Matt L

Wil said:


> "DirecTV=GOOD. Tivo=BAD". Don't bother replying to specific messages anymore, just post this 4-5 times a day in our faces in this Tivo forum. We get it.
> 
> I don't understand the PR process. On the DirecTV forums there are anti-DirecTV messages, sure, but moderately. Yet here you are (all 6 of you) 24X7. Has Earl hired all of you?


No, simply a very good product that offers me more than the TiVo did has found it's way into my home. Yes, it's a different interface, but it does everything I want it to do, it does it as I want and when I want, at no additional cost. What's not to like? 99.9% of D users have moved on, not doing so is a choice, but don't think we are all bought off, we just want what we are paying for.


----------



## sluciani

Matt L said:


> No, simply a very good product that offers me more than the TiVo did has found it's way into my home. Yes, it's a different interface, but it does everything I want it to do, it does it as I want and when I want, at no additional cost. What's not to like? 99.9% of D users have moved on, not doing so is a choice, but don't think we are all bought off, we just want what we are paying for.


+1. When I exclusively used TiVo's from 1999 to 2007, there was no bigger fan than me. When the 2007 Yankees were only available in MPEG-4 HD, I was forced to swap my four DirecTiVo's for HR's. Having used the HR's for 3 years now, I see no compelling reason to switch back. They do everything I need, and a couple of things TiVo's don't do that I can no longer live without, like streaming MRV.


----------



## Cudahy

I still check here everyday. I'd still be willing to pay a few dollars a month more for a Tivo.
Since I can only get HD now on the DirectvHD I mostly go back to the Tivo to use the search engine. Only on Tivo can you do a simple alphabetical movie search.


----------



## TyroneShoes

sluciani said:


> ...When the 2007 Yankees were only available in MPEG-4 HD, I was forced to swap my four DirecTiVo's for HR's...


Well, I don't think anyone held a gun to your head. But that was during the "woops--shipped too early" phase of the HR2x when it was still a real turd-bucket, so you have probably seen the entire arc from turd-bucket to well-regarded industry leader/top-dog DVR platform.

And only a few diehards are clinging to the fantasy that this arc of significant improvement did not happen, and pretty much the rest of the world accepts that two DVRs, Tivo and the HR2x, now sit well above the rest. DISH's claim that their VIP DVR is the best out there rings nearly as hollow as their claim of having the most "HD choices" (which seems pretty impossible without having either the most HD channels or HD channels with significantly more HD programming, which they very obviously don't). I have some first-hand experience with the VIP, and it is about as close a contender either to Tivo or the HR2x as is dried hammered dog $#!+, so, I am dismissing it as a contender out of hand. Everyone is well aware that the cable and FIOS boxes aren't in the same league.

There is a pretty hefty laundry list of features on the HR2x that are improvements over Tivo, and there are a few things Tivo still does better. But I think the fat lady has finally sung, and it is arguable which platform could be considered the better platform.

Specifically, what might Tivo have that the HR2x doesn't have? From my point of view:

1) Suggestions. Proprietary to Tivo, yet I turned them off about a decade ago on mine.

2) Slo-mo. Still the worst implementation of any feature on the HR2x, and among the best on Tivo, so Tivo wins this one by default. Still, a minor point. And it doesn't work as well on Tivo as it used to since the last v6.x up rev, in fact FFWDx1 doesn't work at all on some channels (where it still does work under v3.1.5).

3) Search. Tivo still does this better.

4) Reliability. Tivo and the HR2x were tied pretty closely in this one, but the last couple of up revs have left the HR2x lacking in the area of dropping secondary and even primary showings. This is a very serious issue that the HR2x has developed only recently, and I hope they can fix it. But because of it, the advantage once-again falls to Tivo, also by default.

Of course this is offset by the list of what the HR2x has that Tivo doesn't, which is a much longer list with a number of significant entries on it, not including MPEG4 recording and playback.

So they are pretty damned close, and the best solution is still to have at least one of each.

Regarding the vaporware DTivo, for Tivo to have a significantly better product, they would have to do more than match the HR2x feature to feature. They would have to do something like what Apple did with the iPad. Rather than releasing a netbook-quality tablet, or a "bigger iPod Touch" or a "Big iPhone without the phone", they created a platform that would have the ability to carve out its own niche specifically because of apps, both significant rewrites of classic iWork/iLife staples, as well as from a healthy universe of eager developers. That is what will eventually make the iPad a winner instead of just a toy, which is kind of what version 1.0 feels like.

Tivo is going to have to do something really revolutionary for the new DTivo to be any sort of success, something on that order.


----------



## joed32

Cudahy said:


> I still check here everyday. I'd still be willing to pay a few dollars a month more for a Tivo.
> Since I can only get HD now on the DirectvHD I mostly go back to the Tivo to use the search engine. Only on Tivo can you do a simple alphabetical movie search.


That movie search and wish lists are what I miss.


----------



## sluciani

TyroneShoes said:


> [...] There is a pretty hefty laundry list of features on the HR2x that are improvements over Tivo, and there are a few things Tivo still does better. But I think the fat lady has finally sung, and it is arguable which platform could be considered the better platform.
> 
> Specifically, what might Tivo have that the HR2x doesn't have? From my point of view:
> 
> 1) Suggestions. Proprietary to Tivo, yet I turned them off about a decade ago on mine.
> 
> 2) Slo-mo. Still the worst implementation of any feature on the HR2x, and among the best on Tivo, so Tivo wins this one by default. Still, a minor point. And it doesn't work as well on Tivo as it used to since the last v6.x up rev, in fact FFWDx1 doesn't work at all on some channels (where it still does work under v3.1.5).
> 
> 3) Search. Tivo still does this better.
> 
> 4) Reliability. Tivo and the HR2x were tied pretty closely in this one, but the last couple of up revs have left the HR2x lacking in the area of dropping secondary and even primary showings. This is a very serious issue that the HR2x has developed only recently, and I hope they can fix it. But because of it, the advantage once-again falls to Tivo, also by default.
> 
> Of course this is offset by the list of what the HR2x has that Tivo doesn't, which is a much longer list with a number of significant entries on it, not including MPEG4 recording and playback [...]


From your list, "suggestions" and SLO-MO were HR10 features I never used, but I realize they may be important to others.

I find DirecTV's "boolean" search function to be just as capable as the HR10's Wish List search, but I agree they should implement a "search wizard" screen similar to TiVo's Wish List to make this kind of granular searching more accessible to the average user.

Re: reliability, I have seen recent reports of HR "first run only" SL's recording repeats. That said, I haven't experienced it personally. We have close to 50 SL's at any given point in time and haven't missed a recording in a couple of years... maybe longer. Knock on wood.

Like I said, there was no bigger fan of TiVo than me from 1999 to 2007. With me, it was "the answer is TiVo, what's the question?", and I'm personally responsible for at least a dozen of my friends getting TiVo's, because I was such a passionate advocate. We can rehash the HR20's development history 'til the cows come home, but it doesn't change what the HR2x platform can do today. Thanks to the way DirecTV implemented MRV, IMHO, the HR2x is simply the better platform.

Why do I like MRV so much? Two networked DVR's give me the ability to record 4 simultaneous shows and allow me to divvy up my network recordings across 2 DVR's in such a way that each scheduler can record consecutive shows on the same channel on the same tuner. This insures that the majority of my recordings are automatically "padded" at each end.

So not only has MRV virtually eliminated all my recording conflicts and "clipped recordings" due to sloppy network start/stop times, it also takes care of the 50 limit. And all my recordings appear on a single playlist that I can watch (or resume watching) on any networked H/HR in the house, so it's really transparent to us on which DVR a recording "lives".

What would I like to see DirecTV improve? I'd like to be able to manage both DVR's Series Managers from one box. Other than that, I'm very happy with it.


----------



## JimParks

What is great about SLO-MO on TiVo is when Mythbusters blow stuff up and if they show it is slo-mo add Tivo's slo-mo to theirs and you really have SLOOOO-MOOO


----------



## Atomic Buffalo

Matt L said:


> In all honesty do yo think they really care?


Do they care that they lost a customer? Very much. I was a full-boat subscriber who auto-paid his bill. Do they care why? Only long enough to fill out the "reason" field on their cancellation screen.


----------



## aavi722

I'll pass on what I was told by a Tivo support tech yesterday about the delay for releasing the DTV Tivo.

He said that in his tech support department, they take ten calls from people who have cable to every one that has DirecTV. Therefore, the market for Tivo is much more lucrative to cater to the cable subscribers.

Since they have just launched this Premier, Tivo was not about to go into competition with itself on a "partnered" unit. They are selling the Premier like gangbusters according to him and raking in the profits.

The DirecTV Tivo is taking a back seat to this Premier until the sales die down from those cable subscribers upgrading or coming to Tivo because of the Premier. After they have milked that market dry, then they will make the DirecTV unit available. 

I made it very clear to him that I definitely prefer Tivo to DirecTV's receiver of "any" model and that I am getting pretty irate about the stalling of this promised satellite unit launch.

No other DVR can learn my viewing habits and find programs for me, record them automatically and be there to surprise me with terrific and enjoyable programs that I would have never even known about to set for recording. Until somebody else's DVR can do that, Tivo has no equal in my opinion. I only recently contracted with DirecTV because of the expected ability to get the Tivo. So I'm now on the hook for two years and do not like many things about the HR21 that I'm stuck with until I can get the Tivo.

This tech's explanation made sense to me and may very possibly be why we haven't seen the long awaited mystery DirecTV Tivo yet. If it is, I'm not very happy the way we have been strung along by Tivo with these continually pushed back and false flag release dates.


----------



## SullyND

aavi722 said:


> This tech's explanation made sense to me and may very possibly be why we haven't seen the long awaited mystery DirecTV Tivo yet. If it is, I'm not very happy the way we have been strung along by Tivo with these continually pushed back and false flag release dates.


This tech's explanation is likely as valid as an explanation you might get from your pizza delivery guy.


----------



## samo

SullyND said:


> This tech's explanation is likely as valid as an explanation you might get from your pizza delivery guy.


Not really. Honest pizza delivery guy would just say - "I don't know".


----------



## stevel

Relatively few people use standalone TiVo receivers with satellite - most use integrated DVRs, and for DirecTV customers, they would call DirecTV for support, not TiVo.


----------



## Sir_winealot

SullyND said:


> This tech's explanation is likely as valid as an explanation you might get from your pizza delivery guy.


I dunno....to me, that explanation makes perfect sense and might very well be the reason. That said, I've found my 3 new HR23's to be quite adequate, and if a new TiVo box is introduced, I may very well stick with what I've got.

What I hate about the HR23's is the slow channel changes....and the many times it does not respond to remote button-presses (which with no sound effect I usually do not realize).

And that slow-motion is gonna bug the sh*t outta me during football season, lol.


----------



## TyroneShoes

stevel said:


> Relatively few people use standalone TiVo receivers with satellite - most use integrated DVRs, and for DirecTV customers, they would call DirecTV for support, not TiVo.


Correct. And I am willing to wager that more use old DirecTivos than use standalones for DBS. The reason Tivo gets 10 times as many calls from cable is because they have been unceremoniously drummed out of DTV. For Tivo, cable and OTA is really all that is left, other than suing the pants off of everyone who copied their intellectual property.


----------



## CuriousMark

TyroneShoes said:


> The reason Tivo gets 10 times as many calls from cable is because they have been unceremoniously drummed out of DTV. For Tivo, cable and OTA is really all that is left, other than suing the pants off of everyone who copied their intellectual property.


I think you missed the point. TiVo has never provided customer service for DTV DVR users, whether or not those DVRs were TiVo or not. DirecTV has always provided the customer service for those. The fact that there are only a small number of TiVo standalone users who connect those series 2 boxes to DirecTV receivers accounts for the 10 to 1 ratio and nothing else. I will lay long odds that this ratio did not change a whit after DirecTV dropped TiVo for integrated DVRs.


----------



## stevel

That's not quite true, Mark. TiVo did provide customer service for DTiVos before November 2004.


----------



## joemamafresh

*Does anyone know the most recent DirecTivo model and where a person might aquire one? I too am tired of waiting around, but I WILL NOT go back to Comcast! I really like Directv, A LOT!*


----------



## stevel

The "most recent" DirecTiVo model is the R10. But that's some four to five years old. If you really like DirecTV and want HD, get one of the HR2x models (not TiVo-powered). If you hold out for the hypothetical future DTiVo, you'll miss a lot and you might not even like it when it arrives (nobody here knows what it will be like.)


----------



## shwru980r

I don't think any of the DTV/Tivo models will record HD programming anymore. You could use a stand alone S2 Tivo to control a DTV set top box, but all the recordings would be in SD and you would need a second DTV set top box to watch live TV while the Tivo was recording.


----------



## stevel

Correct in that none of the HD satellite channels can be recorded by the only HD DirecTV TiVo to date, the HR10-250. The HR10 can record HD OTA still.


----------



## joemamafresh

*Thanks for replying guys...I've got an HR22, but it sure isn't close to being a TiVo... I guess I'll just stick with it till the "new DirecTiVo" comes out...Whenever the Hell that turns out to be...I just refuse to give Comcast one more DIME of my money!*


----------



## TyroneShoes

CuriousMark said:


> I think you missed the point. TiVo has never provided customer service for DTV DVR users, whether or not those DVRs were TiVo or not. DirecTV has always provided the customer service for those. The fact that there are only a small number of TiVo standalone users who connect those series 2 boxes to DirecTV receivers accounts for the 10 to 1 ratio and nothing else. I will lay long odds that this ratio did not change a whit after DirecTV dropped TiVo for integrated DVRs.


Well, other than the fact that Tivo did indeed provide customer service for DTivos, and the fact that DirecTV did NOT drop Tivo for integrated DVRs (the Tivo models blessed by DTV were already integrated IRD/DVRs), I may have missed your point simply because I don't think you have successfully made it yet. I was busy making my own point, and was actually not all that interested in responding to yours (which since I missed it, didn't).

And I disagree completely with the "nothing else" comment; the standalones connected to sat IRDs only represent the "1", while cable and OTA users with standalones represent the "10", a ratio which is very likely higher than even that. You can't have a ratio without two variables, after all, so a ratio can't physically be dependent on one thing "and nothing else".

I also contend that the ratio did indeed change significantly after DTV dropped Tivo, not because they did, but because that was coincidentally about the time that the Tivo HD became available to cable and OTA users, HD reached critical mass, and some large operators even offered Tivo-powered DVRs.


----------



## BOBCAT

Does anyone know if the new HD TiVo box will have a OTA tuner? Sure hope it does.


----------



## litzdog911

BOBCAT said:


> Does anyone know if the new HD TiVo box will have a OTA tuner? Sure hope it does.


We don't know for sure. If it's built on the HR24 hardware platform, then the answer is no. Hopefully it will at least support the AM21 Off-Air Tuner Accessory to provide that functionality.


----------



## CuriousMark

stevel said:


> That's not quite true, Mark. TiVo did provide customer service for DTiVos before November 2004.


I missed this until now, thank you for the correction. That was before my time in TiVo LaNd.


----------



## cbessant

Not only is it delayed to "late 2010", DTV commented it is delayed until "early 2011". I am so glad DTV has a good handle this. What they need is a cablecard like the FCC forced on cable. This would help put to rest this crap.


----------



## sluciani

cbessant said:


> Not only is it delayed to "late 2010", DTV commented it is delayed until "early 2011". I am so glad DTV has a good handle this. What they need is a cablecard like the FCC forced on cable. This would help put to rest this crap.


(a) You can't use a generic TiVO with satellite. Different tuners are required. That said (b) DirecTV already built the box that knows how to do this. It's just waiting on TiVO to write the software for it. It's been 18 months since the announcement, so I assume getting it done was just not as high a priority for TiVO as getting the Premiere platform out the door was.

As it turns out, they may have picked the wrong product to finish first, because a new DirecTiVo last year might have resulted in higher net TiVO subscribers today. I don't know this for a fact, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn they lost more DirecTiVO subs in 2009 than new subs gained as a result of getting Premiere out the door, to date.


----------



## cbessant

sluciani said:


> (a) You can't use a generic TiVO with satellite. Different tuners are required.


Yes, that is correct. There isn't a way to open up DISH and DTV and allow a cablecard device to give the consumer a choice in equipment like they did with cable?



sluciani said:


> As it turns out, they may have picked the wrong product to finish first, because a new DirecTiVo last year might have resulted in higher net TiVO subscribers today. I don't know this for a fact, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn they lost more DirecTiVO subs in 2009 than new subs gained as a result of getting Premiere out the door, to date.


The problem has been the announcement TiVo made back in late 2008 for delivery in 3QFY09, and then the dead silence and lack of information. A year goes by and "..well, it'll be 2010... " then we are in 2010 "...it'll be late 2010/ into 2011..." which tells me mid-2011. I also suspect you are correct about the negative churn ratio - lost more than they gained.

THEN, to add insult to injury when DTV yanked the remaining MPEG2 channels on April 1st, they re-appeared in the Guide a few days ago but are "Not available in your area". I remember the announcement that the MPEG2 channels were being shutdown except that hotels and college dormitories would continue service with MPEG2. I just think that while fault may be with TiVo, DTV has done a crap job at the way they have treated their DirecTiVo subscribers. Sure, there are just a couple channels, crumbs if you will, but it is better than zippy-do-da.

Honestly, if I had access to cable, I would switch; I call it "voting with my dollars". As it is, I only have DTV or DISH to choose from, and no fiber. I am sure DTV and TiVo monitor forums like this for feedback, and they only way to get the message across is to chat it up in public places like this.


----------



## sluciani

cbessant said:


> [...] I just think that while fault may be with TiVo, DTV has done a crap job at the way they have treated their DirecTiVo subscribers [...]


I respectfully disagree.

Since DirecTV has no control over TiVO's s/w development schedule, I think the fact that they've been upgrading HR10 customers to HD-DVR's at no cost is a pretty nice gesture.

Don't forget, those DirecTiVO subs are paying only a small amount of money to TiVO each month. Not more than $1.00 per household, from what I understand. By converting those customers to Direct DVR users, it's not like DirecTV is now enjoying a huge windfall by pocketing TiVO's $12/year for that account.

And DirecTV sells their DVR's at break-even, so giving a way a free $200 DVR is the equivalent of 200 months of TiVO subscriber fees. And many customers had 2-3 HR10's, so that's $400-$600 in goods they're giving customers to stay with DirecTV *because TiVO hasn't delivered yet.* The money for those boxes comes right off D*'s bottom line.


----------



## nellee

cbessant said:


> Yes, that is correct. There isn't a way to open up DISH and DTV and allow a cablecard device to give the consumer a choice in equipment like they did with cable?
> 
> The problem has been the announcement TiVo made back in late 2008 for delivery in 3QFY09, and then the dead silence and lack of information. A year goes by and "..well, it'll be 2010... " then we are in 2010 "...it'll be late 2010/ into 2011..." which tells me mid-2011. I also suspect you are correct about the negative churn ratio - lost more than they gained.
> 
> THEN, to add insult to injury when DTV yanked the remaining MPEG2 channels on April 1st, they re-appeared in the Guide a few days ago but are "Not available in your area". I remember the announcement that the MPEG2 channels were being shutdown except that hotels and college dormitories would continue service with MPEG2. I just think that while fault may be with TiVo, DTV has done a crap job at the way they have treated their DirecTiVo subscribers. Sure, there are just a couple channels, crumbs if you will, but it is better than zippy-do-da.
> 
> Honestly, if I had access to cable, I would switch; I call it "voting with my dollars". As it is, I only have DTV or DISH to choose from, and no fiber. I am sure DTV and TiVo monitor forums like this for feedback, and they only way to get the message across is to chat it up in public places like this.


Directv provided options to subs to switch out their boxes for new boxes that work with the mpeg4 stream, and for some, it was at NO COST to them if they were persistent enough. Technology evolves faster than you think, once a new product comes out, companies are already working on the next big thing.

There is no one else to blame but yourself for what you chose. When i wanted HD, I got the box that does HD. Was it Tivo UI? No, but after 6 years of using TIVO, it took me 2 days to get over it, and back then there were only a handful of HD channels, but now, practically everything is in HD.

When the new Tivo UI box comes out, unless they offered to give it to me for under $100 for a swap, I could care less.


----------



## shibby191

cbessant said:


> There isn't a way to open up DISH and DTV and allow a cablecard device to give the consumer a choice in equipment like they did with cable?


Why do people think cable cards are the holy grail? It failed for crying out loud and the FCC even admitted that a few months ago saying it failed and they were looking for something new to push.

And how good does that cable card standard do ya if you're in an SDV cable area or Tru 2 Way? Not so good. By the time the cable card finally became a "standard" the industry was already moving to the next thing. Same thing will happen again. The FCC will get a bug up their butt about some new fangled technology that will solve all problems and by the time it gets approved and adopted we'll be past it and on to the next technology. Tech changes over every 2-3 years...5 yrs if you really drag your feet.

Regulation that you want is too slow and always will be. Let the market decide what works. Even with cable cards Tivo's share of the market continues to drop because the vast majority of people refuse to pay more for a DVR they get for "free" (or they perceive as free) from cable or whatnot.



> THEN, to add insult to injury when DTV yanked the remaining MPEG2 channels on April 1st, ......... DTV has done a crap job at the way they have treated their DirecTiVo subscribers. Sure, there are just a couple channels, crumbs if you will, but it is better than zippy-do-da.


So you ignore the fact they actually were going to shut down MPEG2 well over 2 years ago and only delayed this long because MDU's didn't get their dishes and switches upgraded in time. Going to MPEG4 has nothing to do with the DirecTivo. Technology changes, get over it. The whole sat industry is moving (and has been) to MPEG4 for a while. Dish is as well.

So you're suggesting that they stop all plans going forward to roll out new channels and whatnot with the recovered MPEG2 HD bandwidth to make a few thousand HR10-250 owners "happy"? Please, talk about a dumb business decision.


----------



## HiDefGator

sluciani said:


> As it turns out, they may have picked the wrong product to finish first, because a new DirecTiVo last year might have resulted in higher net TiVO subscribers today. I don't know this for a fact, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn they lost more DirecTiVO subs in 2009 than new subs gained as a result of getting Premiere out the door, to date.


I was having the exact same thought today. They did the Premiere for the RCN deal, but the DirecTivo would immediately generate 100's of thousands of subs without even promoting it.


----------



## shibby191

HiDefGator said:


> I was having the exact same thought today. They did the Premiere for the RCN deal, but the DirecTivo would immediately generate 100's of thousands of subs without even promoting it.


Yep. I think even if a new DirecTivo is a flop it would still get probably 200K-300K subs which would be huge for Tivo. Small potatoes and barely noticeable to DirecTV, but huge to Tivo. But that number gets smaller the longer they wait. I think Tivo's big mistake was not putting all their effort into the DirecTivo.


----------



## SullyND

shibby191 said:


> I think Tivo's big mistake was not putting all their effort into the DirecTivo.


Yes, because if anyone knows how much effort TiVo has put into the new DirecTiVo it's you.


----------



## shibby191

SullyND said:


> Yes, because if anyone knows how much effort TiVo has put into the new DirecTiVo it's you.


Ummm, what I mean is that the DirecTivo should have been their first priority above all else, especially given their stance of wanting to be software developers for other people's boxes. Instead they spend all their time on the Premier and even then it's not done.

They longer they delay with DirecTV the less and less it will matter and the harder it will be to get any type of critical mass in subs to help them out that much. Had they got this out fall last year like originally planned it would have been a lot better. This thing drags out into this time next year you can pretty much forget it, why even bother at that point.


----------



## balboa dave

shibby191 said:


> Ummm, what I mean is that the DirecTivo should have been their first priority above all else, especially given their stance of wanting to be software developers for other people's boxes. Instead they spend all their time on the Premier and even then it's not done.
> 
> They longer they delay with DirecTV the less and less it will matter and the harder it will be to get any type of critical mass in subs to help them out that much. Had they got this out fall last year like originally planned it would have been a lot better. This thing drags out into this time next year you can pretty much forget it, why even bother at that point.


You're making the very unfounded conclusion that TiVo caused the delay. That's very unlikely, as DirecTV is the contractor. They have to issue the Statement Of Work to TiVo, and approve the schedule. The lack of concern in the DirecTV CEO's last statement and his schedule announcement tells me the SOW has only recently been approved. Since DirecTV has just rolled out their Connected Home system, that tells me the new TiVos were delayed so they can be a part of the new system.


----------



## sluciani

balboa dave said:


> [...] Since DirecTV has just rolled out their Connected Home system, that tells me the new TiVos were delayed so they can be a part of the new system.


Prior to going live, DirecTV's MRV was in the hand of beta testers and available to TiVo as well. If you're right, the release of the DirecTiVO should be imminent. So why are latest estimates from CEO's of both companies late 2010 and early 2011?

It seems to me some folks here are under the impression DirecTV somehow _wants_ to see TiVO fail. What's the rationale for that, once they agreed to a new deal? According to public records, DirecTV paid TiVO millions in development fees in 2009. Do folks think DirecTV is hungering to pocket the $12/year existing DirecTiVO subs are paying TiVO by switching them over to HD DVR's? Oh, and in order to do that, they're offering free DVR upgrades, at a cost to DirecTV of $200 per box?


----------



## shibby191

balboa dave said:


> You're making the very unfounded conclusion that TiVo caused the delay. That's very unlikely, as DirecTV is the contractor. They have to issue the Statement Of Work to TiVo, and approve the schedule. The lack of concern in the DirecTV CEO's last statement and his schedule announcement tells me the SOW has only recently been approved. Since DirecTV has just rolled out their Connected Home system, that tells me the new TiVos were delayed so they can be a part of the new system.


As I've stated many times it's *my opinion*. For crying out loud, aren't all the posts in Internet forums just our opinions unless you are an official rep of said company. 

Secondly my opinion is that Tivo is the reason for the delay (could be anything from not devoting enough resources to it, hardware problems, etc). History tells us a lot about Tivo and delays, only the most devoted Tivo fanboys won't admit to all the multitude of delays in Tivo's history. History tells us that at least right now, we're waiting on Tivo and watching the clock.

But hey, I could certainly be wrong and DirecTV is trying to screw Tivo. Or they both dropped the ball. In the end, who cares? The only fact is that it's delayed for nearly another year. Get over it.


----------



## TyroneShoes

shibby191 said:


> ...For crying out loud, aren't all the posts in Internet forums just our opinions unless you are an official rep of said company. ...


Well, I for one would like to think that at least some of my posts contain actual facts


----------



## snoots

If it's hackable to extract mp4 I'm there, if not meh


----------



## stevel

Expect "meh", then.


----------



## litzdog911

snoots said:


> If it's hackable to extract mp4 I'm there, if not meh


Highly unlikely.


----------



## whitepelican

snoots said:


> If it's hackable to extract mp4 I'm there, if not meh





stevel said:


> Expect "meh", then.





litzdog911 said:


> Highly unlikely.


Haven't we been led to believe that the new DirecTivo will be based on the Series3/TivoHD line? If so, I don't see why it would be any harder to hack than the Series 3's are already.


----------



## stevel

What gave you that idea? It is more likely to be based on the HR24.


----------



## sluciani

stevel said:


> What gave you that idea? It is more likely to be based on the HR24.


Up until the release of the HR24, it made sense that it the new DirecTiVo would be based on the HR20 or one of the HR21/22/23 motherboards, because they used the same Broadcom chipsets as the Series 3 and TiVo HD, respectively.

The HR24 does not use a Broadcom chipset, so the "port" may be a bit more difficult, but it now makes more sense to try to develop for that CPU rather than the slower Broadcom models.

If it turns out they still base the new DirecTiVo on one of the HR21/22/23's, however, it makes you wonder what took them so long? If they were going to do that, they could have done that back in early 2009.


----------



## whitepelican

stevel said:


> What gave you that idea? It is more likely to be based on the HR24.


Well, I've been told repeatedly that the HR2x and the Series3 are very similar from a hardware standpoint. I guess the fact that Tivo came out and said that the UI would not be in HD like the Tivo Premiere led me to believe that the new box would be, at least from a software standpoint, similar to the Series 3. And Tivo doesn't seem to make progress too quickly, so I'm betting that the new DirecTivo will have more in common with the Series 3/Tivo HD than it will the HR24.


----------



## BOBCAT

Hope that it is the series 3 platform, but which ever one, make sure that it has OTA capability.:up: ---->D*please release it soon!<----


----------



## litzdog911

BOBCAT said:


> Hope that it is the series 3 platform, but which ever one, make sure that it has OTA capability.:up: ---->D*please release it soon!<----


If it's based on the HR2x platform, then it should support the AM21 Off-Air Tuner for off-air digital TV reception.


----------



## psywzrd

BOBCAT said:


> Hope that it is the series 3 platform, but which ever one, make sure that it has OTA capability.:up: ---->D*please release it soon!<----


OTA capability is irrelevant to me but I echo your hopes that DirecTV releases it soon. I absolutely despise my DirecTV HD DVRs and I cannot wait to start using Tivo again with DirecTV.


----------



## TyroneShoes

sluciani said:


> ...If it turns out they still base the new DirecTiVo on one of the HR21/22/23's, however, it makes you wonder what took them so long? If they were going to do that, they could have done that back in early 2009.


It does make one wonder just what they might be doing inside the walls of the Tivo compound. It appears they may be doing nothing at all, only because they haven't really done much but rest on their laurels of late.

The Premiere is pretty underwhelming. I still am laying odds that they can't produce a DVR for DTV that has enough juice to give it "premium" status, and DTV keeps raising the bar with its own formidable DVRs faster than they can innovate. When the alleged vaporware DTivo finally ships there won't be a lot of remaining frontier left to conquer on the DVR front, and the real difference will probably be limited to the name brand which will be incorrectly perceived as having intrinsic value not available elsewhere.

Anyone with any savvy already understands that the brand name "Tivo" is becoming equivalent to "Polaroid" and "Westinghouse", once shiny well-regarded brands that withered on the vine and were eventually sold off for the value of the name prestige only. Tivo's ruling-class era is all but over. VOD and Roku-like boxes have already marked DVRs as dying technology.

Think buggy whips, blacksmiths, and the IBM Selectric typewriter (which only exists now on _Fringe_).The concept of a catch server that automatically records rare or unique real-time telecasts has been pre-empted by search technology for plentiful existing downloadable file-based content. Not quite yet, but we can see it beginning to happen in super-slow motion like a NASCAR crash right in front of our eyes. The DVR business is on the same slow long-goodbye path as the tobacco business.

Other than suing the back teeth out of everyone they imagine has wronged them over the years, really, just what is Tivo's business model? Seeing as how bleak the future is for DVRs I think they are looking for a white knight to gobble them up, like Apple or Google.


----------



## Matt L

Hearing people still whine about the "bad" HR2x boxes makes me wonder if it's the boxes or the people. Personally, I firmly believe it's the latter. Having made the switch over a year ago, and still having an HR10-250 live I see no comparison. The HR10 is slower and almost clunky in comparison to the Hr2x boxes. An it's a fairly fresh install with only 2 season passes on it and a mostly empty hard drive. In comparison the HR23 I use the most has an almost full hard drive and 48 season passes. For me, the ONLY thing the Tivo has going for it is the TiVo grid, that's it - with the search feature on the HR23 if there is something I want to watch it finds it quickly.

You are certainly free to be a Luddite and stick with an outmoded platform and wish and hope for better, but 99&#37; of us have moved on and are not looking back.


----------



## Wil

Matt L said:


> You are certainly free to be a Luddite and stick with an outmoded platform and wish and hope for better


Thank you. I was really worried about whether or not I had your permission to use a piece of equipment I like.


----------



## whitepelican

Matt L said:


> You are certainly free to be a Luddite and stick with an outmoded platform and wish and hope for better, but 99% of us have moved on and are not looking back.


Of course, you're comparing technology that is one year old vs. six years old. But I can tell you that I and my family much preferred the HR10-250s to the HR20 & HR21 that we used for a year or more. I don't know if my wife was ever more pleased than when we finally disconnected the HR20/21 and put our old faithful HR10-250s back in their places. The HR10-250s were much faster, and they could do something that the HR20/21 could never do - change the frickin' channel by entering in a channel number. But now, we're even happier to be free of DirecTV and have our Series 3 Tivos. So you can take your "Luddite" comment and stick it you know where.


----------



## psywzrd

whitepelican said:


> The HR10-250s were much faster, and they could do something that the HR20/21 could never do - change the frickin' channel by entering in a channel number.


I'm glad it's not just me that has this problem with my DirecTV HD DVRs. Why is it so hard to change the channel on these things? I know it's not user error because I never have a problem changing the channel on my S3 Tivos. I don't know what it is but my HR21-100s are just very sluggish and extremely slow to respond to remote commands. Plus there are little things that bother me like when I'm watching a recording and press clear or exit to clear the info and/or progress bar from the screen and it goes back to the channel I was watching before I starting watching the recording.

I know that a new DirecTivo wouldn't be perfect but I can't see it being any worse than these DirecTV boxes. The Tivo program guide alone is worth the switch to me and I want constant live buffers, not one that turns off by itself after 2 hrs.


----------



## stevel

You should expect the new TiVo DirecTV box to be a DirecTV DVR with a TiVo user interface. Fundamental features such as the way live buffers work will almost certainly be DirecTV's style, not TiVo's. You'll get a TiVo guide (optional) and menu structure, and maybe Suggestions and Wish Lists. Don't expect it to be just an HR10 that does MPEG4.


----------



## psywzrd

stevel said:


> You should expect the new TiVo DirecTV box to be a DirecTV DVR with a TiVo user interface. Fundamental features such as the way live buffers work will almost certainly be DirecTV's style, not TiVo's. You'll get a TiVo guide (optional) and menu structure, and maybe Suggestions and Wish Lists. Don't expect it to be just an HR10 that does MPEG4.


If this is true, it will be a damn shame. I know a lot of people have taken to the DirecTV boxes but I personally don't see anything they have to offer feature-wise over Tivo.


----------



## HiDefGator

psywzrd said:


> If this is true, it will be a damn shame. I know a lot of people have taken to the DirecTV boxes but I personally don't see anything they have to offer feature-wise over Tivo.


Agreed. But I also don't see anything feature-wise a real Tivo offers over the HR24 today. And since the new DirecTivo will almost certainly be an HR24 with different software, the hardware will be nearly identical. So how much better can the Tivo software be? If the premiere is any example, I'm not expecting to be impressed.


----------



## ClubrhythmEnt

Am I the only one that finds it a little strange that NOTHING has leaked out from either DTV staff or TiVo about this new box? 

I mean even at Apple where Steve makes sure your career in the industry is permanently over after you show the co-founder of Apple an iPad for 2 minutes stuff still leaks out. Specs, pictures, etc. (http://gizmodo.com/5523673/steve-wozniak-on-apple-security-employee-termination-and-gray-powell)

It's like this new DirecTiVo box is state secret. The only info we get is vague press releases where they say things like "it's been delayed" and "Features TBA" AND "it will be a DVR" and "it will have a peanut remote". Gee, thanks for the all the info. Way to market to the customer base and get us excited about the launch...what a buzz kill! :down:


----------



## Matt L

Well, there is one simple answer -- the box does not exist.


----------



## wblynch

After 16 years I just quit DTV

I ordered a Tivo Premiere to join my OTA Tivo HD and will switch to cable for the 'extra' channels.

We get all our HD and digital locals over the air and have no need for DirecTV and their tyranny any longer.

When I told them I was leaving because they don't have HD support on Tivo any longer they didn't even mention an upcoming D-Tivo.

I am freed !!


----------



## DiscCollector

stevel said:


> You should expect the new TiVo DirecTV box to be a DirecTV DVR with a TiVo user interface.


Why? No one knows for sure at this point, so why should you tell people to "expect it"?



stevel said:


> Fundamental features such as the way live buffers work will almost certainly be DirecTV's style, not TiVo's.


Why will they "almost certainly" be this way? My guess is that you're wrong, and they won't. What evidence do you have of this?

All of this is just speculation until the product is shipped. Why should we state what are really guesses, with such certainty?


----------



## HerbalEd

Matt L said:


> You are certainly free to be a Luddite and stick with an outmoded platform and wish and hope for better, but 99% of us have moved on and are not looking back.


And yet here you are on "TIVO"community.com. Fancy that.


----------



## Wil

HerbalEd said:


> And yet here you are on "TIVO"community.com. Fancy that.


The psychological defect seems to be the same that drives PC users to Mac-user forums to keep posting anti-Mac messages, and vice-versa.

As far as I can remember, only one of these people here eventually acknowledged receiving compensation from DirecTV and untimately becoming a full-time DirecTV employee. The rest are amateurs as far as I know; the motivation for the rudeness (to put it mildly) has always been puzzling. To barge into someone else's livingroom to take a crap?


----------



## Fixer

DiscCollector said:


> Why? No one knows for sure at this point, so why should you tell people to "expect it"?
> 
> Why will they "almost certainly" be this way? My guess is that you're wrong, and they won't. What evidence do you have of this?
> 
> All of this is just speculation until the product is shipped. Why should we state what are really guesses, with such certainty?


http://support.directv.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/77

http://www.tivo.com/products/source/satellite/tivo-directv/index.html

Only TWO things mentioned that are unique to TiVo: Universal Swivel Search and KidZone. BIG WOOPEEDEEDOO!! 

Admittedly, that was posted on their respective sites sometime last year, so it is reasonable to assume that some things have changed. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. 

___


----------



## stevel

We know that the hardware is DirecTVs. I admit that we don't really know much more, but I can't see how it makes sense for DirecTV to offer a box that is incompatible with the way the other HR2x boxes work for things such as MRV and buffers.

Seriously, though, I'm pretty much beyond caring. My wife prefers the TiVo UI but more because that's what she's used to. I can make myself at home in either the HR10 or HR21. The hypothetical new TiVo box would need to have something really special in order to convince me to pay for it.


----------



## litzdog911

DiscCollector said:


> Why? No one knows for sure at this point, so why should you tell people to "expect it"?
> 
> Why will they "almost certainly" be this way? My guess is that you're wrong, and they won't. What evidence do you have of this?
> 
> All of this is just speculation until the product is shipped. Why should we state what are really guesses, with such certainty?


Actually, it's been widely reported that the new DirecTV/Tivo HD DVR is being built on the HR24 hardware platform. Of course they're still "guesses", but very "educated guesses" based on reports from folks probably in-the-know.


----------



## mdougie

Any word on if the Direct TV Tivo will stream Netflix? That is really the only feature I care about.


----------



## llarch

Matt L said:


> Well, there is one simple answer -- the box does not exist.


A May 6th, 2010 statment from the DirecTV CEO;

"we did see a demo of it"


----------



## shibby191

mdougie said:


> Any word on if the Direct TV Tivo will stream Netflix? That is really the only feature I care about.


No word and you can pretty much count on it not doing that since it would directly compete with DirecTV's VOD service, including their upcoming "Netflix like" VOD type service.

FYI that you've been able to do Netflix thru the HR2x receiver for 2-3 yrs now via the DLNA support in the media share function. I'd say that the new DirecTivo could do the same thing but unfortunately Tivo has for years snubbed the DLNA standard and thus probably would not.

But a built in Netflix as on the stand alone Tivo? I think that's a 98% "no way".


----------



## 230

The only way I would spring for the new tivo is if it supports DIRECTV2PC, and I give that about a 0.5&#37; chance. Yes, I use the feature A LOT.


----------



## Rainy Dave

Got tired of waiting. Just ordered another HR2x for $100 from DirecTv. My R10 has been locking up lately.


----------



## TyroneShoes

Matt L said:


> Well, there is one simple answer -- the box does not exist.


Depends on your definition of "the box". If that refers to a laboratory curiosity MPEG-4 DTivo, I'm sure it does exist. I would bet that there are lots of DTV and Tivo higher-ups that might even have some of these "one-offs" in their offices or personal media centers at home.

But if "the box" refers to a customer-ready device that they can clone on an assembly line and quickly build an inventory to ship, well it probably does not yet exist. There still may be niggling issues to be hammered out first. It's probably a little bit like trying to get comprehensive health care passed by congress.


----------



## stevel

I fully expect the new DirecTV TiVo to support DirecTV2PC and other DirecTV features. I believe it will be a standard DirecTV box with a TiVo UI and selected TiVo-specific features.


----------



## TyroneShoes

litzdog911 said:


> Actually, it's been widely reported that the new DirecTV/Tivo HD DVR is being built on the HR24 hardware platform. Of course they're still "guesses", but very "educated guesses" based on reports from folks probably in-the-know.


I may be reading too much into this, but the quote "it will be a Tivo" sort of gives the impression that the hardware will be Tivo. Otherwise, I have no idea what that quote would be referring to; obviously from a software standpoint "it will be a Tivo", which goes without saying. Yet they said it anyway. It seems that if it were on a different hardware platform, that statement would be either obvious (implying Tivo software) or meaningless. So what were they trying to tell us?


----------



## TyroneShoes

psywzrd said:


> ...I know a lot of people have taken to the DirecTV boxes but I personally don't see anything they have to offer feature-wise over Tivo.


Well, that must be only because you just aren't paying attention (which is your right). There is quite a long laundry list of significant features on the HR2x that Tivo apparently never dreamed of.

That's not to say that folks can't rightfully prefer the Tivo approach over the DTV approach. There are still things about the HR2x that seem half-baked compared to venerable old Tivo, even if feature-wise the HR2x can run rings around Tivo in many instances. There are things that they just haven't gotten quite right yet, including a few glaring errors. Just the simple appeal of the peanut remote is enough for some to continue to prefer Tivo.

Of course I still maintain that you don't have to choose; having both is truly the best approach. That way you can prioritize which box does what job by which box does what job best. What could be better than that?

But there is also a huge component of Stockholm syndrome at play here. We like what we know, what we are invested in regardless of its pitfalls. Change is never easy, and there is a lot of inertia involved. It's human nature at work, but there is always room for evolution. The fear and frustration in some posts from folks feeling that they have been pushed into new DVRs is almost palpable (but my advice it still for them to give in and embrace the experience).

I've had both Tivo (since 1998, Dtivo since 2003, HD DTivo since 2004) and HR2x side-by-side since 2007, and while constant significant improvements drove my preferences, it took a couple of years before I got where I was actually more comfortable with the HR2x than the HR10s, although I use both all of the time. As I use the HR10's less, however, ironically it is the Tivo and peanut that seem more foreign to me.


----------



## Matt L

Same here.

If TiVo was smart they make the peanut remote available to the public as a universal remote. It feels great in your hand, it's logically laid out and it simply works well. If they did that and supported D receivers I wonder how many of the hold outs would switch?


----------



## stevel

I hate the peanut remote. Tastes vary.


----------



## joed32

Matt L said:


> Same here.
> 
> If TiVo was smart they make the peanut remote available to the public as a universal remote. It feels great in your hand, it's logically laid out and it simply works well. If they did that and supported D receivers I wonder how many of the hold outs would switch?


I don't have any Tivos any more but I still use a "peanut" to control my standard TVs. It's still my favorite.


----------



## BOBCAT

I like the peanut remote!


----------



## Fixer

stevel said:


> I hate the peanut remote. Tastes vary.


Me too. The damn thing is way too small for my hand. Of all of the remote controlled CE devices and universal remotes I have owned, the TiVo remote is the worst design I have encountered. :down:

___


----------



## SullyND

Fixer said:


> Me too. The damn thing is way too small for my hand. Of all of the remote controlled CE devices and universal remotes I have owned, the TiVo remote is the worst design I have encountered. :down:


Never used the apple remote I take it?


----------



## aaronwt

Fixer said:


> Me too. The damn thing is way too small for my hand. Of all of the remote controlled CE devices and universal remotes I have owned, the TiVo remote is the worst design I have encountered. :down:
> 
> ___


Too Small?!
The TiVo remote is huge.


----------



## Cudahy

I've been using both for a year & a half but now that there's no HD on the Tivo I only use it for searches & suggestions. I'm hoping that when the new HDTivo "eventually" comes out it'll have everything I need on one box.


----------



## Raketemensch

I had an S1 Directivo that I used for 2 years until we did away with cable/satellite in our house for 5 or 6 years. During that time we mostly used XBMC on the old-school XBox and since then we've used Plex and Boxee.

I finally gave in and got DirecTV and an HR20, and it drives me nuts. I don't understand how a company could put out such an unresponsive, obviously overburdened piece of dedicated hardware. I am currently in the process of rebuilding my old S1 DSR6000 -- I'll forgo HD before I'll deal with this horrible UI and incredibly slow pile of hardware.

I wouldn't even need the DirecTivo if DTV would just give us a real UPNP server. If I could record the shows on a unit in the basement and just share them out on the network to my laptops and things like Boxee, I would be more than happy. All I want is a legally paid-for source of programming to watch how and when I choose to. In 2010, this shouldn't be the ordeal that it is.

DirecTV2PC is Windows-only, which is ludicrous. The standards they're using for this should allow for simple streaming that doesn't require their hobbled Windows software. UPNP, DLNA and the encryption method they're using (I forget the acronym right now) are all things that are implemented in most modern operating systems already.

As Cable and Satellite lose more and more customers to Internet TV and solutions like Boxee, XBMC, MediaPortal, etc, they need to realize that they've already got the tools to avoid this hemorrhaging, they just need to implement them properly.

The UI in Boxee and Plex makes the HR2X UI look like it's from 1993. I can't stand to even look at it, it's like they built it in Oracle Forms or something.


----------



## Rainy Dave

stevel said:


> I hate the peanut remote.


I'm with you on that one. Couldn't wait to switch to an universal remote.


----------



## Fixer

SullyND said:


> Never used the apple remote I take it?


LOL! Touché! 

My hands are pretty big. The location of "most used" buttons make it so my thumb reaches in an awkward position. I have to look to make sure I'm hitting the right button. I also direct tune a lot, so I prefer the numpad to be at the top of the remote.

___


----------



## Matt L

I long ago switched to a Harmony remote, have 3 of the same remote for each setup. Much prefer it to any other remote. Funny thing, I can pick up the TiVo peanut, and use it with out much thought, but I can never do that with the D remote. I always have to look for what I want, it's not intuitive in the least for me.


----------



## Raketemensch

SullyND said:


> Never used the apple remote I take it?


I thought the same thing until I installed Plex on a macbook pro hooked up to the TV.... To be honest, it's the best video experience I've ever had, and that tiny remote was perfect.

I just dropped it in my pocket and carried it around with me, and with just 6 buttons it managed to do everything I needed to do with it. Switching between videos, controlling Pandora and Last.FM, browsing through programming guides, seeking ahead and back, controlling the volume, all very easily with one tiny little remote.

The only thing that would have made it better would be RF/Bluetooth capabilities.


----------



## sjberra

Matt L said:


> Same here.
> 
> If TiVo was smart they make the peanut remote available to the public as a universal remote. It feels great in your hand, it's logically laid out and it simply works well. If they did that and supported D receivers I wonder how many of the hold outs would switch?


please do have not had a decent target for the shotgun on the range since the last one went to junk remote heaven


----------



## ClubrhythmEnt

Raketemensch said:


> All I want is a legally paid-for source of programming to watch how and when I choose to. In 2010, this shouldn't be the ordeal that it is.


:up: Amen brother, Amen!


----------



## technojunkie

I keep checking in to see when we might be saved. The DTv DVR is really a POC! Extremely slow and UI is cumbersome as well. When in the world will they ever get a program guide that lets you find something quickly? The idea that you need to see everything on a timeline is crazy. No automatic suggestions or the ability to rate a program. What were they thinking? And the remote? Junk! Everytime I need to turn off my TV I need to slide a switch to that position and if someone does switch it back there goes your input setting. The thing is moronic.


----------



## HiDefGator

technojunkie said:


> Everytime I need to turn off my TV I need to slide a switch to that position and if someone does switch it back there goes your input setting. The thing is moronic.


sounds like you don't have the right code programmed into the remote. that ain't normal.


----------



## stevel

I like the DirecTV search - especially the newest version of it. I don't know what you mean by "a timeline". Speed is pretty much the same as my HR10.

The DirecTV remotes have an "AV mode" which is needed if you also want them to control AV equipment. Depending on how you have it set up, you may indeed need to switch between AV mode and DirecTV mode. I don't like either the TiVo remotes or the DirecTV remotes and much prefer a Logitech Harmony universal.


----------



## shibby191

technojunkie said:


> I keep checking in to see when we might be saved.


Check back again in 6 months then. They've already said it will probably be 2011.



> No automatic suggestions or the ability to rate a program.


Well, nobody else in the industry does either one so you're just left with Tivo on that one. Wouldn't really blame DirecTV on that front. Especially since the thumbs up/dn thing is a Tivo patent and nobody else could do it anyway.



> What were they thinking? And the remote? Junk! Everytime I need to turn off my TV I need to slide a switch to that position and if someone does switch it back there goes your input setting. The thing is moronic.


As said above, you don't have it programmed properly then. Either way any stock remote from any vendor, even Tivo, goes straight to the remote graveyard after programmed into my universal. No idea why anyone puts up with stock remotes anymore.


----------



## Matt L

I use Harmony remotes on 3 of my AV systems, and the D remote on the 4th. The D remote will turn off the TV and the D box but won't turn off the audio receiver. At some point I may pick up another Harmony remote but for the moment the D remote is fine.


----------



## SullyND

shibby191 said:


> They've already said it will probably be 2011.


Please show me where "they" said "that".


----------



## HiDefGator

SullyND said:


> Please show me where "they" said "that".


They have said the end of this year. Based on 100% of their previous predictions that means it will be early 2011 before you get your hands on one. And probably Q2 2011 before it runs reliably.


----------



## shibby191

SullyND said:


> Please show me where "they" said "that".


Ummmm, DirecTV said it in their recent conference calls a few weeks ago. It's been widely reported including here. They said they hope that Tivo will deliver it end of 2010 or early 2011. Looking more like 2011 every day since there is only 6 months left in the year and still nary a peep about it.


----------



## SullyND

shibby191 said:


> Ummmm, DirecTV said it in their recent conference calls a few weeks ago. It's been widely reported including here. They said they hope that Tivo will deliver it end of 2010 or early 2011.


Which is distinctly different from:



shibby191 said:


> They've already said it will probably be 2011.


Again, please show me where "they" said "it will probably be 2011.".


----------



## shibby191

SullyND said:


> Which is distinctly different from:
> 
> Again, please show me where "they" said "it will probably be 2011.".


Dude, just give it up.


----------



## stevel

I'm in the hat for 2012 at this point...


----------



## sjberra

stevel said:


> I'm in the hat for 2012 at this point...


ever time I see this the old song "In the year 2525" goes through my head - which might be accurate


----------



## bigpuma

SullyND said:


> Which is distinctly different from:
> 
> Again, please show me where "they" said "it will probably be 2011.".


While I agree nobody actually said 2011 other than the DirecTV CEO saying either end of 2010 or early 2011, do you believe they will deliver this year? If so why?


----------



## SullyND

shibby191 said:


> Dude, just give it up.


Give what up? Pointing out you changed the facts to suit your agenda?



stevel said:


> I'm in the hat for 2012 at this point...


LOL and then the world ends.



bigpuma said:


> While I agree nobody actually said 2011 other than the DirecTV CEO saying either end of 2010 or early 2011, do you believe they will deliver this year? If so why?


I don't know when it will be delivered, I do know that "they" did not say it would probably be in 2011. Either way, if it's not here by then I'll probably ditch DirecTV for Comcast so it won't matter to me.


----------



## shibby191

SullyND said:


> Give what up? Pointing out you changed the facts to suit your agenda?


My only agenda was to give a realistic timeframe to a poster that was frustrated with waiting so long and telling him he probably will be waiting at least another 6 months based on what DirecTV themselves have said. Thus said poster could decide that is too long to wait and just drop DirecTV and move on to cable/FIOS, etc and make plans in that direction to get a stand alone Tivo to work with such a system.

So sorry that you don't approve of me trying to give someone actual realistic expectations so they can make an informed decision to actually leave DirecTV. Heck, if Tivo was my top priority over anything I would have left DirecTV years ago**. I don't know why people cling to this small hope year after year only to be disappointed. As many have posted, you can usually go to cable with no or little commitment, get a Tivo HD or Premier and enjoy. Then *if* Tivo and DirecTV ever get out a new box and *if* 6 months after release the major bugs are stomped out then such a person could come back to DirecTV and sell their Tivo HD/Premier and be out very little and have enjoyed Tivo all that time.

Why people "suffer" not having Tivo (or whatever it is they want) is beyond me.

But hey, continue to nitpick all you want, no problem. If anyone actually believes it will ship yet this year is frankly just fooling themselves at this point*.

*My opinion...happy for the disclaimer?

**Yes, I did leave DirecTV about a year ago, not because of Tivo, but I left. I don't have any pay TV at the moment.


----------



## HiDefGator

shibby191 said:


> I don't know why people cling to this small hope year after year only to be disappointed.


they still remember how much they hated cable when they left?


----------



## shibby191

HiDefGator said:


> they still remember how much they hated cable when they left?


LOL. Could be. But I thought the "great" thing about cable is no commitment. So despite a long ago hate there is nothing to lose in trying cable. At least that what others on this forum say that have moved on.

So put your DirecTV in suspend for 6 months, get cable/Uverse/FIOS a spin and see how it is. You got nothing to lose and you might find something great that isn't spelled DirecTV. 

There are people that post in this thread that they are "suffering" with no HD channels because of no new Tivo box. Why suffer. I don't get it.


----------



## whitepelican

shibby191 said:


> There are people that post in this thread that they are "suffering" with no HD channels because of no new Tivo box. Why suffer. I don't get it.


And some are "suffering" with DirecTV DVRs. It's all about personal opinion. Some people don't really give a rat's patoot about HD, and some don't give a hoot about having a decent UI on their DVRs. I know if I asked my wife, she would be 1000% in favor of being able to use the Tivo UI over ever having any HD programming. Luckily, we don't need to worry about that as we've now canceled DirecTV in favor of Tivo & OTA.


----------



## Cudahy

It's only $5.00 a month more to have both Tivo & DirectvHD. When the TivoHD comes out(at some point in the next 9 months) I'll probably keep the DirectvHD in case we have to record 3 things at once.


----------



## shibby191

whitepelican said:


> And some are "suffering" with DirecTV DVRs. It's all about personal opinion. Some people don't really give a rat's patoot about HD, and some don't give a hoot about having a decent UI on their DVRs. I know if I asked my wife, she would be 1000% in favor of being able to use the Tivo UI over ever having any HD programming. Luckily, we don't need to worry about that as we've now canceled DirecTV in favor of Tivo & OTA.


Exactly. Why suffer with no Tivo if it's that important? Make the move and be happy.


----------



## Wil

stevel said:


> I'm in the hat for 2012 at this point...


I'll take the over.


----------



## sjberra

Cudahy said:


> It's only $5.00 a month more to have both Tivo & DirectvHD. When the TivoHD comes out(at some point in the next 9 months) I'll probably keep the DirectvHD in case we have to record 3 things at once.


even if it is higher then 5.00? rememebr it was originally listed as a premium service and not standard equipment to be shipped 2 years ago


----------



## parzec

HiDefGator said:


> they still remember how much they hated cable when they left?


Although, the time when DirecTV was better behaved than cable co is long gone. Unfortunately, the fact that DirecTV has so many people locked into ridiculously long contracts with draconian termination fees, keeps people from merely "switching to cable to get Tivo" But you are right, people seem to only remember when cable was the bad guy -- I'll give DirecTV credit for a very effective advertising campaign.


----------



## shibby191

parzec said:


> Unfortunately, the fact that DirecTV has so many people locked into ridiculously long contracts with draconian termination fees, keeps people from merely "switching to cable to get Tivo"


Well, people on the original HR2x's have been coming off the contracts for nearly a year now so they should be "free".

But I just wanted to point out that most cable companies (and Uverse, not sure about FIOS) will buy out whatever contract you have left with DirecTV. I get the mailings every week still. Heck, I'm getting them from DirecTV now that they'll give me $200 to buy out any other contract I'm in if I'll come back. If the local cable co doesn't advertise it, call and ask, most will do it because they are desperate to get you.

So unless you have a really backwards cable system the contract you may be in with DirecTV or Dish should not be a barrier at all to leave because cable will buy you out. At least people should check into it and not just assume that they are "stuck".


----------



## samo

parzec said:


> Unfortunately, the fact that DirecTV has so many people locked into ridiculously long contracts with draconian termination fees, keeps people from merely "switching to cable to get Tivo" But you are right, people seem to only remember when cable was the bad guy -- I'll give DirecTV credit for a very effective advertising campaign.


If 2 year contract is draconian, is Tivo's minimum 1 year contract half-draconian and keeps people from switching from cable to DBS?


----------



## parzec

samo said:


> If 2 year contract is draconian, is Tivo's minimum 1 year contract half-draconian and keeps people from switching from cable to DBS?


Perhaps -- but but at least with Tivo, their ETF is justified because you own the box and can sell it to recoup the ETF. DirectTV has an exorbitant ETF for a device that is not owned and must be returned, and is tied to a programming package of at least $50 per month ($29.99 package plus hd fee, dvr fee, et al) for 24 months. So I would say that Tivo is only 0.243 draconian compared to DirecTV


----------



## parzec

shibby191 said:


> So unless you have a really backwards cable system the contract you may be in with DirecTV or Dish should not be a barrier at all to leave because cable will buy you out. At least people should check into it and not just assume that they are "stuck".


Thank God for the benevolence of CableCo to extricate us from the tyranical grasp of the Sats!


----------



## HiDefGator

parzec said:


> Perhaps -- but but at least with Tivo, their ETF is justified because you own the box and can sell it to recoup the ETF. DirectTV has an exorbitant ETF for a device that is not owned and must be returned, and is tied to a programming package of at least $50 per month ($29.99 package plus hd fee, dvr fee, et al) for 24 months. So I would say that Tivo is only 0.243 draconian compared to DirecTV


Directv potentially has to come to your house, install a sat dish, run cables, hook up a dvr, provide you with instructions on that dvr, and you think they should do this for nothing if you change your mind a month later? Perhaps they should follow Tivo's lead and lose money for 10 straight years instead. Customers are free to not sign the contract and use another MSO. No one is twisting their arm.


----------



## sjberra

parzec said:


> Thank God for the benevolence of CableCo to extricate us from the tyranical grasp of the Sats!


/rofl nice sense of humor


----------



## codespy

Was a die hard TiVo fan for so many years, and some family and friends still running them and I re-image their drives as needed when breakdowns occur.

I run HDVR2's in our vehicle and camper for the kids and occasionally update their programs, which is why I keep a non-RID IRD activated.

I could not resist free upgrades to DirecTV HD DVR's and all the HD channels with free AM21's for OTA.

And my DVR service fee is still grandfathered at $0.

As for the new TiVo- I am at the point where I am looking in my rear view mirror, and will likely stay that way if it bumps up my DVR fee from $0.

It pains me to say that, but with grandfathered premier at $114.99 and no end to going up in price in the future, DirecTV will likely give me no other choice since I don't have an open checkbook anymore with a family to feed.


----------



## BOBCAT

Has anyone heard any update on when the new box might be released?


----------



## kevinwill1

BOBCAT said:


> Has anyone heard any update on when the new box might be released?


Nothing more than the "late this year" or "early next year" timeframes.

Here is a more recent thread on the subject...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8046166#post8046166


----------



## litzdog911

BOBCAT said:


> Has anyone heard any update on when the new box might be released?


Nothing since the DirecTV analyst meeting a couple months back where they said early 2011. It's been rather quiet on the rumour front.


----------



## BGLeduc

The Tivo page that until recently said 1st half of 2010 now says 2nd half of 2010. Not that I believe a word of that. 

http://www.tivo.com/products/source/index.html

Brian


----------



## ihatecable

I just spoke with TIVO yesterday, they told me late September or October. That and 2.25 will get you on the subway!


----------



## stevel

Nobody at TiVo will give you accurate information - especially not any CSRs. Even TiVo managers won't say a word about this as it is not their product to disclose.


----------



## TyroneShoes

I think the "new" MPEG4 Tivo IRD is dead. True vaporware, in that it will never come to pass.

The longer they wait the harder it will be for them to build a premium DVR comparative to the garden-variety HR. Look how much significant improvement there has been in the HR series just recently; a proc with about 2.5 times the speed of older HRs, SWM, MRV, dual buffers, DECA, larger HDDs, 3D, etc. There isn't a lot of open frontier left within which Tivo can distinguish itself. If it takes another 6 months, the Tivo die-hards will have all either caved in for HRs, gone to other vendors, or just plain died out. NASA just put out a full-time HD channel, meaning the HD revolution is about over. Time is definitely not on Tivo's side.

But then there is a rumor that some alpha-tester engineer left one behind in a bar in SF and gizmodo has reverse-engineered it already.


----------



## Cudahy

The DirecTV search engine is worse than it was a year ago. That alone is worth a few dollars a month to some of us.


----------



## HiDefGator

TyroneShoes said:


> The longer they wait the harder it will be for them to build a premium DVR comparative to the garden-variety HR.


I agree. At this point it would only sell to those few that have used a Tivo before and are willing to pay extra for the Tivo interface. I can't see what feature a new DirecTivo would have that would justify paying extra monthly.


----------



## whitepelican

HiDefGator said:


> I agree. At this point it would only sell to those few that have used a Tivo before and are willing to pay extra for the Tivo interface. I can't see what feature a new DirecTivo would have that would justify paying extra monthly.


I'd gladly pay the extra monthly fee for a DirecTV DVR that simply knows how to sort the playlist alphabetically.


----------



## samo

whitepelican said:


> I'd gladly pay the extra monthly fee for a DirecTV DVR that simply knows how to sort the playlist alphabetically.


Will you pay me few $$ a month if I tell you how to sort your playlist alphabetically on your HR2X ? 
Clue - yellow button, then change order.


----------



## whitepelican

samo said:


> Will you pay me few $$ a month if I tell you how to sort your playlist alphabetically on your HR2X ?
> Clue - yellow button, then change order.


I will indeed if you then tell me how to get it to alphabetize correctly. As in, don't put half of the shows under "T" because they start with "The" and the other half under "A" because they start with the word "A".

Not to mention the fact that it would make a helluva lot more sense if the items inside a folder were still listed by date instead of (poorly) alphabetizing those items as well.


----------



## shibby191

whitepelican said:


> I will indeed if you then tell me how to get it to alphabetize correctly. As in, don't put half of the shows under "T" because they start with "The" and the other half under "A" because they start with the word "A".


Have you tried it recently? I ask because I'm pretty sure they had an update over a year ago which addressed this and ignores "The" and "A".


----------



## moxie1617

shibby191 said:


> Have you tried it recently? I ask because I'm pretty sure they had an update over a year ago which addressed this and ignores "The" and "A".


Didn't happen - still sorts all the "The" under T.


----------



## Ray Nagin

moxie1617 said:


> Didn't happen - still sorts all the "The" under T.


where else would you suggest they put it?


----------



## BGLeduc

Ray Nagin said:


> where else would you suggest they put it?


First letter of the word in the title AFTER the "The".

For example, iTunes sorts artists that way. The Dave Mathews Band is listed under "D", not "T". The White Stripes are under "W".

Brian


----------



## HiDefGator

I'd be thrilled if the guide would only show me channels I get when i tell it to only show me channels I get.


----------



## moxie1617

Ray Nagin said:


> where else would you suggest they put it?


You being cute or just stupid! Read the thread.


----------



## whitepelican

shibby191 said:


> Have you tried it recently? I ask because I'm pretty sure they had an update over a year ago which addressed this and ignores "The" and "A".


Yup, it still doesn't know how to alphabetize correctly. I'm sure they'll fix it "soon". I mean, it's only been that way for, what, about 4 years now?

I believe they fixed the crappy alphabetizing in search results awhile back, but it's still broken in the playlist.


----------



## Cudahy

Does Tivo have a patent on an alphabetical by title search, with subcategories? Trying to use the Directv search engine is like looking for a needle in a haystack.


----------



## ClubrhythmEnt

Cudahy said:


> The DirecTV search engine is worse than it was a year ago. That alone is worth a few dollars a month to some of us.


+1


----------



## TyroneShoes

Well, happy that I could add some energy to the only thread with even a glimmer of life left in it over here (which is a testament to how absent Tivo now is from being a mainstay DVR), the consensus seems to be that there is a group of folks who are telling Tivo "just put out a DVR with the exact same features as the HR series, only fix all the stuff they broke".

And seeing as how all 12 of those folks who buy in to that concept are probably also among those who populate this particular forum, even that might not be enough to keep the MPEG4 DTivo from ever being anything other than a laboratory curiosity.

On the other hand, if the spectre of a DTivo that can actually deliver on the 4 or 5 tiny shortcomings of the HR series in a positive way has any ability to light a fire under the snoozing programmers over at DTV, I guess that could only be a good thing. Hey, the iPhone got better because of Android and all of the other healthy competition; also a good thing.

The only problem with the concept of Tivo being much better at fixing problems is that there is probably a reason those things have not been fixed on the HR, which is probably the same reason they would not be workable on a DTivo: they are hard problems to fix. While Tivo long ago was able to do a few of these things well and fairly elegantly and the HR still can't do them, are the programmers at Tivo really geniuses still (really talented folks don't stay with dying companies) or are there diamonds in the rough at DTV that might be even smarter who just haven't got to the hard problems yet? Maybe a lot of 2002 programmers at Tivo have moved on to greener pastures, like the green fields of DTV.

But I'm afraid you all buried the lead, which is not that there are niggling issues that would make a DTivo worthwhile, but that there are rumblings (well, at least I rumbled) about it never, ever happening. Speculation that the Tivo just will not ever happen seems rare here; it seems folks all figure 6 months, 12 months, maybe more. A tiny few of us are saying "never". I'm not going to vet that comment by checking every post here, but I come here a few times a week and I can't actually remember anyone saying it won't happen. So maybe I'm the only one, even. That's OK. I'm actually fairly comfortable out on that limb.

Maybe a poll asking both "when" and "will it ever" is in order.

And you can come here and say "I told you so" whenever the imaginary DTivo even seems to have reached niche status among those who think or claim that they are willing to fork over premium bucks for it. I guess "failure" could be measured by it either not happening or being pulled from DTV after a year to 18 months (corporations would rather lose money than ever admit they made a mistake).

If it makes it that far I will gladly acknowledge and eat crow gracefully. Promise. Although I don't think it is a promise I am likely to be forced to keep. There may not even be a TC DTivo forum to post your "I told you so's" in by then.

Until that day which may never come, I guess we all should be prepared to:

Stick a fork in it. It's done.


----------



## Matt L

I think I said the same thing in this or one of the threads here a while back, the D TiVo II will never appear. There really isn't any point in it. The very few issues a tiny, tiny, tiny tiny, minority of HR2x users have are a joke to all of us but them. If you haven't figured out the "The" issue by now, you have serious issues. Annoying? Mildly, but so what? The HR2X search works very well for me, I've never had an issue.

If the TiVo ever appears you folks can be the first in a very short line to get one, I won't. If it were to have some freaking great app, sure I go for one, but I don't think there is anything out there like that any more.


----------



## sjberra

BOBCAT said:


> Has anyone heard any update on when the new box might be released?


rumor has it late 2010 more likely 2011


----------



## samo

whitepelican said:


> I will indeed if you then tell me how to get it to alphabetize correctly. As in, don't put half of the shows under "T" because they start with "The" and the other half under "A" because they start with the word "A".


You must have some money to waste if you willing to pay monthly to take care of the few shows listed out of order on your play list.


----------



## Wil

samo said:


> You must have some money to waste if you willing to pay monthly to take care of the few shows listed out of order on your play list.


Some people are really stupid about wasting their money: rib eye and strip steaks instead of chuck, first class airline tickets, more computer than they really need. Choosing a DVR because you like it, even if you have to pay more money, is just insane.

Fortunately there are those sensible people like us to point out the error of their ways.


----------



## Matt L

Really? You'd put sorting "The" in the T's in the same category as First Class vs Coach flying? Sorting your shows is _that_ important to you? Wow!


----------



## whitepelican

Matt L said:


> Really? You'd put sorting "The" in the T's in the same category as First Class vs Coach flying? Sorting your shows is _that_ important to you? Wow!


It's one of the two most important things the DVR does. It records and it plays back. If you can't easily locate your shows to play back, then that's a problem. Yes, you could get used to the (broken) way the HR2x displays the list. But to do so requires abandoning all reason and logic, and if you're in a household with mixed types of DVRs, all with upgraded drives so they have huge playlists, just try explaining why "The Big Bang Theory" is located under "B" on most of them, but under "T" on that one. I'd rather fly coach.


----------



## Wil

whitepelican said:


> Yes, you could get used to the (broken) way the HR2x ...


I agree with the previous discussion about the sorting/search deficiencies. My point, though, was more holistic, bigger picture. Of the reasons I think Tivos are better than other DVRs (from the bottom-level cable generics to the medium-awful DirecTV's), sorting and searching are only minor factors. YMMV. In _whole_ I prefer Tivo, and I can afford to use the DVR I like, just as I can choose (for examples) a more pleasant computer experience, a better cut of beef, a (custom made) shoe that fits and feels good, an airplane seat that's comfortable. I don't need to settle for less. Again, YMMV.

I am not saying that people should not make value decisions. I do that every day. On the extreme: I would like to live in Buckingham Palace, but I have a feeling the asking price would be more than it's worth to _me_, so I live in something far less grand. I make value-driven decisions like that all the time.

But a DVR??????? Geeze, life is too short; why would I want to settle for less than what I like, on something that trivial in cost? I use what like best.


----------



## Matt L

I have 3 HR2x's, with upgraded hard drives, networked and I really never have an issue finding what i want easily. I have 40 series links on one unit and 30 on each of the others. I could easily have well over a 100 recordings showing up on my lists, plus I sort by date, newest first. This method works for me. My thought process is if I have not bothered to watch something and it's been there for months It really doesn't warrant my time and it's free to be deleted, but with 3T of drive space that really doesn't happen.

To each his own...


----------



## joed32

Wil said:


> I agree with the previous discussion about the sorting/search deficiencies. My point, though, was more holistic, bigger picture. Of the reasons I think Tivos are better than other DVRs (from the bottom-level cable generics to the medium-awful DirecTV's), sorting and searching are only minor factors. YMMV. In _whole_ I prefer Tivo, and I can afford to use the DVR I like, just as I can choose (for examples) a more pleasant computer experience, a better cut of beef, a (custom made) shoe that fits and feels good, an airplane seat that's comfortable. I don't need to settle for less. Again, YMMV.
> 
> I am not saying that people should not make value decisions. I do that every day. On the extreme: I would like to live in Buckingham Palace, but I have a feeling the asking price would be more than it's worth to _me_, so I live in something far less grand. I make value-driven decisions like that all the time.
> 
> But a DVR??????? Geeze, life is too short; why would I want to settle for less than what I like, on something that trivial in cost? I use what like best.


I'm with you on that. If you prefer Tivo then get cable and be happy. If you're good with the HR series or with Dish Networks DVRs then go that way. Don't see the point of arguing about which is better, we can all just use what we like.


----------



## TyroneShoes

joed32 said:


> ...Don't see the point of arguing about which is better...


There is no point. There is no argument. For DTV subs there is absolutely no question which is better. The HR2x records, plays back, has a few issues we would like fixed. But that is still infinitely better than a DVR that does not exist. A DVR that does not exist will not record _Lie To Me_ tonight. My HR will. Which is better is pretty obvious _(hint: the one that actually can record stuff)._


----------



## rolybert

sjberra said:


> rumor has it late 2010 more likely 2011


As long as it comes out by december 20 2012 I will be happy. At least I will get to use it one day before the sun explodes


----------



## rolybert

samo said:


> You must have some money to waste if you willing to pay monthly to take care of the few shows listed out of order on your play list.


How do you know it will be more money. No one else does.


----------



## shibby191

rolybert said:


> How do you know it will be more money. No one else does.


Well, Tivo themselves (and DirecTV) has said it will be a premium product thus costing more and the monthly charge would be more.

I guess if that isn't knowing then I don't know what is.


----------



## rolybert

shibby191 said:


> Well, Tivo themselves (and DirecTV) has said it will be a premium product thus costing more and the monthly charge would be more.
> 
> I guess if that isn't knowing then I don't know what is.


So you have the press release and the place where it was said it would cost more? Please post it here. So I can read it and it is no longer hearsay. Since the product has not been released NO ONE KNOWS 100% what will be, so until it is released please keep your assurances to yourself. Thank You.

As far as I am concerned Directv can say the sky is pink and grass is orange. Until I walk outside and see the pink sky and am walking on orange grass I will not trust ONE WORD coming from Directv.

Therefore if and when the new TiVo is released and I see it cost more I will believe no one.

Especially any of the D* Fanboys.


----------



## shibby191

rolybert said:


> So you have the press release and the place where it was said it would cost more? Please post it here. So I can read it and it is no longer hearsay. Since the product has not been released NO ONE KNOWS 100% what will be, so until it is released please keep your assurances to yourself. Thank You.
> 
> As far as I am concerned Directv can say the sky is pink and grass is orange. Until I walk outside and see the pink sky and am walking on orange grass I will not trust ONE WORD coming from Directv.
> 
> Therefore if and when the new TiVo is released and I see it cost more I will believe no one.
> 
> Especially any of the D* Fanboys.


Ummm, the links have been posted in this thread and the other one multiple times. The initial press release stated it (that Tivo would get a significant fee increase from DirecTV that DirecTV planned to pass on) and multiple Tivo SEC filings have also stated it.

I don't have time to dig up links that have already been posted. That's up to you to do if you need the info.

You are correct though in that no one knows 100% what will happen at this point. The only question is that after all this time will there actually be an increased fee as both parties may feel it would be better received if there were no extra "Tivo fee".


----------



## Wil

rolybert said:


> How do you know it will be more money. No one else does.


Of course we do. DirecTV can't offer a choice of switching to a Tivo at the same cost. How silly would it look a couple of years from now with more subscribers choosing the Tivo?

Even though the cost to DirecTV of developing and providing its own box vs. what it would have cost continuing the relationship with Tivo is pretty close to a wash, DirecTV can't risk the humiliation of a level playing field at this point.


----------



## HiDefGator

Wil said:


> Of course we do. DirecTV can't offer a choice of switching to a Tivo at the same cost. How silly would it look a couple of years from now with more subscribers choosing the Tivo?
> 
> Even though the cost to DirecTV of developing and providing its own box vs. what it would have cost continuing the relationship with Tivo is pretty close to a wash, DirecTV can't risk the humiliation of a level playing field at this point.


I'm pretty sure they would view a level playing field as a win for them. They retained complete control of their own software. Most here said they would fail miserably and have to come back to Tivo to keep from going out of business.


----------



## Wil

HiDefGator said:


> I'm pretty sure they would view a level playing field as a win for them.


Well, you could be right. DirecTV _could_ beat Tivo head-to-head at the same cost, letting customers choose at the same price. I'd love to see such a test. But it's not going to happen. Nobody thinks it is.

No, DirecTV's best strategy is to cripple the DirecTivo box, force customers who want that box to pay a prohibitive premium, then walk away declaring victory. That is what is going to happen.


----------



## HiDefGator

Wil I think you misunderstood me. And maybe I misunderstood you too. 

You sort of implied that after all the money they spent DTV had not gotten anything better than what they had with Tivo before they started their own DVR project. I thought that was what you meant by achieving a level playing field. And I was trying to point out that even if they only broke even (which I don't believe) they would consider the project a win because today they have 100&#37; control over their own destiny instead of having to rely on a small non-profitable company that is trying to make many different MSO's happy all at the same time. 

Directv doesn't really need to cripple the DirecTivo. The way the contract is written Tivo only gets paid if customers agree to pay extra for the Tivo model. Directv gets paid the same amount for either DVR in a customers hands. Customers are not going to pay extra for equal functionality.  So a level functionality DVR playing field between the DTV and the DTivo means very few DTivo's will ever get leased. For it to be a success Tivo has to come up with a solution that is clearly superior not just equal. On the other hand equal is a win for Directv and a failure for Tivo. 

You said that Directv spent the same amount of money on their own DVR development that Tivo would have cost them. That may or may not be true but isn't the important part. The important part for DTV is they aren't paying Tivo hundreds of millions every year anymore going forward forever. Which is the situation they would have been in today if they had not started their own DVR project years ago. The future savings are escalating every month as more DVR's are deployed. 

And in many ways today they have a DVR that is tailored to exactly what they want and not a solution aimed at making every MSO sort of happy.


----------



## Wil

HiDefGator said:


> Wil I think you misunderstood me. And maybe I misunderstood you too.


Could be.

Let's hang a lantern on it.

My point was to contest your contention that a level playing field would be a win for DirecTV. Nobody believes that.

DireccTV cannot allow that level playing field. It WILL NOT HAPPEN!

Suppose DirecTV offers a new DirecTivo, a fully-functional updated HR10-250 with all the new chips, OTA tuners and Tivo OS advancements, at the same cost to its customers as one of the very fine DirecTV units they have eventually arrived at, admittedly way better than the Cable generics. Great work!

My claim is that they can't do that. The outcome would be seen as humiliating to DirecTV. After a period of time the DirecTivo units would be outselling the (again admittedly now very functional) DirecTV-developed units. Not that these are terrible, they aren't, anymore, but they are nowhere near the the level of a current Tivo with DirecTV content. There is no contest.

This will not happen. there will be no level playing field. Nobody believes there will be.


----------



## HiDefGator

Wil said:


> After a period of time the DirecTivo units would be outselling the (again admittedly now very functional) DirecTV-developed units.


Why do you believe that? Unless the Directv order takers suggested the Tivo units instead of the non-Tivo units the Tivo units still wouldn't sell more than a small percentage. There is no huge demand for a real Tivo by the public that has never owned one, used one, or seen one.


----------



## shibby191

HiDefGator said:


> Why do you believe that? Unless the Directv order takers suggested the Tivo units instead of the non-Tivo units the Tivo units still wouldn't sell more than a small percentage. There is no huge demand for a real Tivo by the public that has never owned one, used one, or seen one.


Very true. Tivo can't even sell units to those with crappy cable DVRs. All DVRs are "Tivo" to the general public. They just want a DVR, don't care what it is. That's pretty obvious. So what all of a sudden makes someone think that Tivo will take the DirecTV customers "by storm"? Heck, northward of 60% of all DirecTV customers already have the DirecTV DVR. We're talking 9+ *million* people. A new DirecTivo, no matter how "cool" and great it is, isn't going to come close to making a dent in that, especially if it costs more.

The only way a new DirecTivo has any chance of outselling (or outleasing we should say) the HR2x models is if:
1) They both cost the same
2) DirecTivo has all HR2x functionality (MRV, VOD, Media Share, Interactive, etc.) PLUS more Tivo centric stuff
3) Customers are given an explicit choice on sign up that they can choose either one.

Well, we know that #1 isn't going to happen unless something changes from what we've been told.
#2 is an unknown right now.
And #3 we just don't know either. That would be the biggest chance since the Tivo brand name would help in this case.

But I really don't understand Wil's need for a "level playing" field anyway. The new DirecTivo, if it comes out, is slated to be a premium product as a choice for those Tivo diehards that want it. Nothing more. We have been told this much.

It's not meant to be a mass market success or "take over" for the DirecTV DVR line. Not at all. If anyone thinks that then they haven't been paying much attention the past couple years.

There is certainly nothing wrong with being a premium niche product (which Tivo has always been). Tivo can still make money on that model (one would hope) and it's the model they have been trying to use with Comcast and others as well. Why is it "bad" being the premium niche product in DirecTV's DVR line? I don't understand why it has to take over. Tivo and DirecTV certainly aren't developing it to take over. The plan always has been a premium niche product.

So Wil, I agree with you that it won't be on a "level playing field". But it's designed to not be so what's the big deal?


----------



## HiDefGator

shibby191 said:


> There is certainly nothing wrong with being a premium niche product (which Tivo has always been).


I'm starting to question how long Tivo will continue to offer a standalone DVR directly to the public. They couldn't break even when they had 2+ million standalone subs and those numbers have been dropping for years now. There is no reason to believe the new Premiere units are going to have any affect on the dropping standalone sub numbers. Someday they may have millions of MSO subs again and still be losing money on those niche standalone users they have left. It doesn't seem to be the target market they need to be focusing their limited resources on today.


----------



## shibby191

HiDefGator said:


> I'm starting to question how long Tivo will continue to offer a standalone DVR directly to the public. They couldn't break even when they had 2+ million standalone subs and those numbers have been dropping for years now. There is no reason to believe the new Premiere units are going to have any affect on the dropping standalone sub numbers. Someday they may have millions of MSO subs again and still be losing money on those niche standalone users they have left. It doesn't seem to be the target market they need to be focusing their limited resources on today.


I agree. Of course they said many years ago they were pretty much going to scrap making hardware and stand alones and concentrate on MSO's. Still waiting for that.

Honestly Tivo's best bet, but it's probably 5-7 yrs too late, is to stop competing with the very companies you want to work with. Dump all stand alone's and just write the software (or license) that all the MSO's and Sat companies will use. Unfortunately it's waaaaaay too late for that I think with 40+ million DVRs out there that aren't Tivo based. The train left the station about 4-5 yrs ago and Tivo missed it. I do hope they can get on board though.


----------



## CuriousMark

Currently the thing that is giving TiVo the most success right now is smaller cable companies taking their stand alone Premiere DVR and leasing it as a cable company DVR. RCN even released it in Chicago ahead of schedule. They must be happy about the uptake rate. 

Putting TiVo software in others boxes hasn't fared as well. You yourself have pointed out Comcast, Cox and True2way as examples where that has not gone well. So concentrating on MSOs using a variant of their stand alone hardware now seems to be TiVo's best play going forward.


----------



## HiDefGator

I don't have a problem with them making the boxes and selling them to MSO's. I just wonder if they will keep trying to market them in best buy, etc. directly to the public.


----------



## TonyD79

Wil said:


> After a period of time the DirecTivo units would be outselling the (again admittedly now very functional) DirecTV-developed units.


Yeah, just like the Tivos outsell the standard cable DVRs. Oh, wait....they don't even compete on the same scale with those.



Wil said:


> Not that these are terrible, they aren't, anymore, but they are nowhere near the the level of a current Tivo with DirecTV content. There is no contest.


Completely disagree. I recently dumped my Cable HD Tivo because I found it more and more frustrating as each day went on versus my DirecTV DVR. And Roku does a better job of streaming than Tivo. So I have my DirecTV DVRs and my Roku and I am happier than ever.



Wil said:


> This will not happen. there will be no level playing field. Nobody believes there will be.


The only reason why their wouldn't be would be because DirecTV wants to keep costs down. Why should they pay Tivo and take the bullet for it unless it brings in more customers. And, then, why would they CARE if a customer had a Tivo versus an HR box? DirecTV is in the business of making money. If Tivo made them money, it would be important to them. But their customer base continues to grow without Tivo. There is no link between availability of DirecTivos and their income even though you have deluded yourself into thinking it is so.

BTW, one of the things DirecTV did to contain costs was to make the UI consistent across all their boxes. Just by introducing Tivo, they introduce a COST to them by having to maintain different code and support it via customer service, etc. Because of that cost to them, giving Tivo at the same price as an HR box is not a level playing field. It is actually an uneven playing field. How long before the bean counters say that support of each Tivo box costs DirecTV X number of dollars more than an HR box. Poof! There goes the Tivo box.


----------



## Wil

TonyD79 said:


> There [thank you] is no link between availability of DirecTivos and their [thank you, though I'm not clear on who "their" is; but at least the usage was not painful] income even though you have deluded yourself into thinking it is so.


Delusion is not good. I think we agree on that, though otherwise I have no idea what you're talking about in that entire post. This is quite an achievement; almost always everybody makes at least some partial sense.


----------



## bengalfreak

I just don't see the new DirecTivo being a success. I think the only people that would pay extra for it are people that have Tivo and insist on keeping it. A couple of months ago, I would never have thought that i would switch from my direcTivos to a DirecTV HR DVR. But after buying an HDTV, and at this point the new DirecTivo is still vaporware. That, combined with the fact that TimeWarner Cable's use of the copy flag makes the standalone HDTivos MRV feature completely useless, meant i had little choice but to go with DirecTV's unit. While I must admit, I do miss wishlists, just about every other feature from the DirecTivos is in place and the user interface, while not being Tivo simple, is pretty good to. in short, would I pay even a couple dollars more a month for the new HD DTivo over my HR24? Nope.


----------



## whitepelican

bengalfreak said:


> would I pay even a couple dollars more a month for the new HD DTivo over my HR24? Nope.


Except for the fact that most DirecTV HD DVR "owners" do not have HR24s, which are apparently a huge speed improvement over the other models. I know a lot of people who are ready to throw their HR21/23s out the window because they are so frustrated with them.


----------



## Syzygy

bengalfreak said:


> ... would I pay even a couple dollars more a month for the new HD DTivo over my HR24? Nope.


I realize there are a lot of D* subscribers who are blissfully unaware of any problems with the HR2x firmware, but those of us who *are* aware would gladly pay more for an MPEG-4 DirecTiVo - if it ever arrives. (And I'm certain we'll have to pay more.)

If you'd like to raise your awareness, please see *A 2010 compendium of D* DVR bugs* (05-21-10). It contains 81 pure bugs - not design deficiencies. A second post, listing 75 design deficiencies, follows the bug list. Both lists are far from complete.

A previous thread, *A compendium of HR2x software problems* (09-02-09), had only 60+ bugs and missing features, all mixed together - which, unfortunately, allowed D* fanboys to pretend not to see the bugs.


----------



## HiDefGator

And you think brand new DTivo software based on the exact same hardware will have far less bugs? I'm not sure I follow your logic.


----------



## whitepelican

HiDefGator said:


> And you think brand new DTivo software based on the exact same hardware will have far less bugs? I'm not sure I follow your logic.


How many of the bugs listed do you think are hardware based? I would say zero. Unless you attribute the overall slowness of the units to hardware instead of software, which I think is a bogus claim.


----------



## HiDefGator

whitepelican said:


> How many of the bugs listed do you think are hardware based? I would say zero. Unless you attribute the overall slowness of the units to hardware instead of software, which I think is a bogus claim.


No I just think it is flawed logic to believe that Tivo's brand new software will have less bugs that Directivo's old software any time soon. And especially so in the first 6 months after they release it.


----------



## shibby191

And a lot of those "bugs" are simply his preference for the way Tivo does things. That is not a bug, just personal preference. Not saying that there aren't bugs, there are and bugs exist in any platform (just take a look at the Tivo Premier forum). But to mask personal preferences as bugs or design flaws just isn't right.


----------



## SullyND

I know ultimately it means nothing, but it was kind of cathartic.










Kind of interesting that they have it as a choice.


----------



## Syzygy

HiDefGator said:


> And you think brand new DTivo software based on the exact same hardware will have far less bugs? I'm not sure I follow your logic.


Yes, I have no doubt of it.

I was a beta tester during TiVo's first two years (the $500 14-hour stand-alone model) and there were never a lot of bugs; just a handful - and the few bugs that did exist were not the kind that made you curse and throw things.

The "+" DVR is a box with dedicated software, not an operating system that has to be compatible with a myriad of programs. There's really no excuse for DirecTV's shoddy programming.

The new TiVo will serve an important purpose: to get people like me off DirecTV's back - people who fume whenever DirecTV's software screws up.


----------



## HiDefGator

Syzygy said:


> I was a beta tester during TiVo's first two years (the $500 14-hour stand-alone model) and there were never a lot of bugs; just a handful  and the few bugs that did exist were not the kind that made you curse and throw things.


300,000 users will always find less bugs than 9 million users will. doesn't mean they aren't there.


----------



## ClubrhythmEnt

Syzygy said:


> Yes, I have no doubt of it.
> 
> I was a beta tester during TiVo's first two years (the $500 14-hour stand-alone model) and there were never a lot of bugs; just a handful  and the few bugs that did exist were not the kind that made you curse and throw things.
> 
> The "+" DVR is a box with dedicated software, not an operating system that has to be compatible with a myriad of programs. There's really no excuse for DirecTV's shoddy programming.
> 
> The new TiVo will serve an important purpose: to get people like me off DirecTV's back  people who fume whenever DirecTV's software screws up.


I was a beta tester for the HR10-250 and I was amazed at the lack of issues with that early software. Maybe someone else can chime in here...As an "early adopter" and a Microsoft Beta Tester I always expect to have loads of problems but I was surprised at how polished and well executed the TiVo software was for being "pre-release".

Of course the point in the post about how increasing the field testing pool always reveals a broader range of issues is certainly true, but in the case of the HR10-250 when it went into release the customer satisfaction surveys were returning excellent numbers even a year later.

With all this being said the TiVo dev team of today is not the innovative and responsive group of yesterday. Where the new DirecTiVo is concerned there are absolutely no promises, only educated guesses. I will keep my fingers crossed that the new DirecTivo box is as pleasing as my first.


----------



## shibby191

SullyND said:


> Kind of interesting that they have it as a choice.


Well it's a good thing actually. That way they can get an idea of how many people left specifically because of no Tivo box and then determine if it matters or not based on their current business model.


----------



## shibby191

ClubrhythmEnt said:


> I was a beta tester for the HR10-250 and I was amazed at the lack of issues with that early software. Maybe someone else can chime in here...As an "early adopter" and a Microsoft Beta Tester I always expect to have loads of problems but I was surprised at how polished and well executed the TiVo software was for being "pre-release".
> 
> Of course the point in the post about how increasing the field testing pool always reveals a broader range of issues is certainly true, but in the case of the HR10-250 when it went into release the customer satisfaction surveys were returning excellent numbers even a year later.


One thing to keep in mind is that the HR10-250 wasn't much more then the platform that Tivo had been developing from the beginning thus a lot of bugs had been squashed in previous years and boxes.


----------



## shibby191

Syzygy said:


> Yes, I have no doubt of it.
> 
> I was a beta tester during TiVo's first two years (the $500 14-hour stand-alone model) and there were never a lot of bugs; just a handful  and the few bugs that did exist were not the kind that made you curse and throw things.
> 
> The "+" DVR is a box with dedicated software, not an operating system that has to be compatible with a myriad of programs. There's really no excuse for DirecTV's shoddy programming.


I see you're still ignoring Tivo's most recent efforts. 



> The new TiVo will serve an important purpose: to get people like me off DirecTV's back  people who fume whenever DirecTV's software screws up.


So why don't you leave and have your Tivo with some other provider? Don't understand why people "suffer" for years with no Tivo if that is so important to them.


----------



## Syzygy

shibby191 said:


> I see you're still ignoring Tivo's most recent efforts.


Yes, I know about the latest problems. I think it's good that the new DTiVo (once again, if it ever appears) will be sort of a throwback, lacking the latest bells & whistles.


> _So why don't you leave and have your Tivo with some other provider? Don't understand why people "suffer" for years with no Tivo if that is so important to them._


I believe D*'s PQ is ever so much better than the local Comcast's (or Dish's, for that matter). Plus, I've learned how to work around most of my HR21's bad behavior.

And my wife is happy watching mostly SD on her HR10-250, even though her TV is a 30" Sony HDTV with "Reality Creation".


----------



## HiDefGator

ClubrhythmEnt said:


> I was a beta tester for the HR10-250 and I was amazed at the lack of issues with that early software. Maybe someone else can chime in here...As an "early adopter" and a Microsoft Beta Tester I always expect to have loads of problems but I was surprised at how polished and well executed the TiVo software was for being "pre-release".


I bought one of the first batch of HR10 boxes released. They were far from perfect. As I recall the HDMI cable connectors were the wrong size. They hung on a regular basis and had to be rebooted frequently.

But honestly at the time for the ability to record and playback HD I would have overlooked lots of problems and not complained.

I remember a premeire beta tester telling me that they were going to be rock solid at first ship because he had no problems with his. Clealry he was wrong.


----------



## samo

Syzygy said:


> I realize there are a lot of D* subscribers who are blissfully unaware of any problems with the HR2x firmware, but those of us who *are* aware would gladly pay more for an MPEG-4 DirecTiVo  if it ever arrives. (And I'm certain we'll have to pay more.)
> 
> If you'd like to raise your awareness, please see *A 2010 compendium of D* DVR bugs* (05-21-10). It contains 81 pure bugs  not design deficiencies. A second post, listing 75 design deficiencies, follows the bug list. Both lists are far from complete.
> 
> A previous thread, *A compendium of HR2x software problems* (09-02-09), had only 60+ bugs and missing features, all mixed together  which, unfortunately, allowed D* fanboys to pretend not to see the bugs.


You are either nuts or just ignorant. If DirecTV DVR had even half of the problems and so called bugs you compiled they would be out of business with subscriber base moving to Dish or cable. Most bugs you list just plain do not exist and are either figment of your imagination or just plain lies and bashing from TiVo fanboy. You have too much time on your hands, do yourself a favor - get premiere, move to cable and start compiling list of imaginary TiVo bugs. Include few real ones as well just like you did with DirecTV. You may find more receptive audience.


----------



## HiDefGator

I have no problem believing there are a significant list of known bugs in the HR software. I'd be willing to bet that their internal list of bugs is 5 times that size. No one ships perfect software. The cost in time and money would be too high. 

They can allocate engineering resources to new features that will make them more competitive or they can allocate them to fix bugs. If 99+&#37; of the users don't complain about the bugs then they will not bothering fixing them. That is the software industry today. It isn't just Directv. 

On average for every 3 bugs they fix they will introduce 1 new bug. That new bug may be far worse than the known trivial bugs they fixed. Until they start losing customers because the quality is too low, the quality is deemed to be just right.


----------



## Syzygy

samo said:


> You are either nuts or just ignorant. If DirecTV DVR had even half of the problems and so called bugs you compiled they would be out of business with subscriber base moving to Dish or cable...


When you start off with name-calling, you lose most of your audience.


HiDefGator said:


> I have no problem believing there are a significant list of known bugs in the HR software. I'd be willing to bet that their internal list of bugs is 5 times that size.


Thank you for your support.


HiDefGator said:


> They can allocate engineering resources to new features that will make them more competitive or they can allocate them to fix bugs. If 99+% of the users don't complain about the bugs then they will not bother fixing them. That is the software industry today. It isn't just DirecTV... Until they start losing customers because the quality is too low, the quality is deemed to be just right.


I don't agree with your view that the entire software industry avoids fixing bugs. I feel that DirecTV, much more than other dedicated-system builders, pays almost no attention to bugs while, of course, adding often-unrequested features. It may be that DirecTV's programmers simply aren't up to the task.

DirecTV may be losing a few customers because of frustration with their software, but other considerations (PQ, sports, MRV) gain them customers, so they don't feel the hit.

I continue to hope for the new TiVo.


----------



## HiDefGator

Syzygy said:


> It may be that DirecTV's programmers simply aren't up to the task.


I seriously doubt that. Look at the features they have gotten to work exceptionally well. They simply are not being directed to fix the bugs by mgmt.


----------



## Syzygy

The software may be written in a C-like language, in which case modifications are very hard to make without error. You said, "On average for every 3 bugs they fix they will introduce 1 new bug."

In a C-like language, with a system that has already been heavily modified, fixing just one bug is very likely to introduce a new bug &#8212; or two.


----------



## shibby191

Actually over the years they have fixed a ton of bugs in the HR2x line. Not sure if there still is but DBSTalk used to have a database of known bugs/requests and they would get checked off as things got fixed.

And a lot of your bugs are simply that you don't like the way DirecTV does a certain function. No problem with not liking the way something is implemented but it's certainly not a bug because you don't like it. Even the famous 50 series link limit. That's not a bug but a designed feature if you will (rumored to be because of performance issues once you get above 50, something old time Tivo users know all too well once you get too many season passes). Some people don't like it, some people can't live with a DVR that limits them in that way. But it's no bug.


----------



## BOBCAT

I was at Fry's yesterday, and talked to a D* rep trying to induce people to leave cable and sign up with D*
He said that the reason TiVo has not worked on the HD TiVo is that they are being sued by the networks over their DVR recording programs.
He said that TiVo isn't even working on the HD TiVo project at this point and they don't plan on working on it until after the outcome. He said that if the networks win, it will put TiVo out of business which he said was likely to be the outcome.
He also said that if TiVo goes under, D* will buy the rights to the GUI and port it to their box.
He seemed to be very sure of what he was telling me. I don't think that he had any reason to BS me about this as I just asked him about the new HD TiVo box, then listened to a 5 min dissertation about what was happening. 
He also said that this is the reason D* has pushed the release date of the new box out so many times.
Has anyone else heard anything about this?

----->Please don't flame me as I am just quoiting what he said.<-----


----------



## Syzygy

I don't buy anything that guy told you. I don't even believe that the networks are suing TiVo. Some networks have had ownership stakes in TiVo for a decade.

Rule of thumb: Manufacturing reps are always full of $#!&#8224;.


----------



## Wil

BOBCAT said:


> He seemed to be very sure of what he was telling me.


Was his name Sam Shib?


----------



## Matt L

That is the biggest load of .......


----------



## samo

BOBCAT said:


> He said that the reason TiVo has not worked on the HD TiVo is that they are being sued by the networks over their DVR recording programs.
> He said that TiVo isn't even working on the HD TiVo project at this point and they don't plan on working on it until after the outcome. He said that if the networks win, it will put TiVo out of business which he said was likely to be the outcome.
> He also said that if TiVo goes under, D* will buy the rights to the GUI and port it to their box.
> He seemed to be very sure of what he was telling me.


Lets see.
1. TiVo is not being sued by networks. If it was, it would be disclosed in SEC filings.
2. TiVo is working on HD DirecTiVo. If it wasn't, then public disclosure in SEC filings is a lie
3. If TiVo goes under, somebody will be willing to buy patent portfolio and there will be a likely bidding war between interested parties - not just DirecTV
He seemed to be very sure of what he was telling you, are you sure it was DirecTV rep - not the politician running for the office?


----------



## shibby191

Syzygy said:


> I don't buy anything that guy told you. I don't even believe that the networks are suing TiVo. Some networks have had ownership stakes in TiVo for a decade.
> 
> Rule of thumb: Manufacturing reps are always full of $#!.


Totally agree.


----------



## BOBCAT

Ok, Thanks for clearing that up.
He was at the Concord Fry's store. Don't know his name though.
Just don't know why these people would spin such a yarn. What would he gain by doing it?
Ok D*, fine out who was at the Concord Ca Fry's Thursday, and kick the guy's AS*!


----------



## sjberra

Syzygy said:


> Yes, I have no doubt of it.
> 
> I was a beta tester during TiVo's first two years (the $500 14-hour stand-alone model) and there were never a lot of bugs; just a handful - and the few bugs that did exist were not the kind that made you curse and throw things.
> 
> The "+" DVR is a box with dedicated software, not an operating system that has to be compatible with a myriad of programs. There's really no excuse for DirecTV's shoddy programming.
> 
> The new TiVo will serve an important purpose: to get people like me off DirecTV's back - people who fume whenever DirecTV's software screws up.


thanks, its been a really bad morning with work issues and this post had me rolling on the floor laughing, thanks again for brighting my day with this spot of humor

the original HR10's that where in use here where so bug ridden and faulty they did not even deserve the SDT (small dry t***) designation it was to high of a recomendation for them


----------



## sjberra

samo said:


> Lets see.
> 1. TiVo is not being sued by networks. If it was, it would be disclosed in SEC filings.
> 2. TiVo is working on HD DirecTiVo. If it wasn't, then public disclosure in SEC filings is a lie
> 3. If TiVo goes under, somebody will be willing to buy patent portfolio and there will be a likely bidding war between interested parties - not just DirecTV
> He seemed to be very sure of what he was telling you, are you sure it was DirecTV rep - not the politician running for the office?


actually number 2 would be incorrect, they can have it in the SEC filing but internally the project maybe on hold or such a low priority that no progress is being done on it, not a lie, at the rate it is going 4th quarter 2011 or first quarter 2012 is a safe bet


----------



## HiDefGator

Maybe number 1 he was referring to the network DVR concept (not Tivo) that is being sued by the networks.


----------



## Krandor

BOBCAT said:


> I was at Fry's yesterday, and talked to a D* rep trying to induce people to leave cable and sign up with D*
> He said that the reason TiVo has not worked on the HD TiVo is that they are being sued by the networks over their DVR recording programs.
> He said that TiVo isn't even working on the HD TiVo project at this point and they don't plan on working on it until after the outcome. He said that if the networks win, it will put TiVo out of business which he said was likely to be the outcome.
> He also said that if TiVo goes under, D* will buy the rights to the GUI and port it to their box.
> He seemed to be very sure of what he was telling me. I don't think that he had any reason to BS me about this as I just asked him about the new HD TiVo box, then listened to a 5 min dissertation about what was happening.
> He also said that this is the reason D* has pushed the release date of the new box out so many times.
> Has anyone else heard anything about this?
> 
> ----->Please don't flame me as I am just quoiting what he said.<-----


Sounds like a salesman trying to get you to sign up today and not wait for the DirecTV Tivo which is likely knew nothing about. I especially like you part where he tells you that you will get the Tivo GUI on the current direcTV boxes in the future when tivo goes under.

Salesman BS....


----------



## ClubrhythmEnt

I haven't heard anything about major television networks suing Tivo but I thought I read somewhere that in several pending TiVo lawsuits the defendants in those cases had filed cross-complaints against Tivo for patent infringement related to their DVR technology (similar to the Verizon/AT&T/Intellectual Ventures case detailed in a Tivo annual report.) Not my area of the law but maybe this rings a bell with someone else. Not sure what impact that would have on development...


----------



## TyroneShoes

Syzygy said:


> ...The new TiVo will serve an important purpose: to get people like me off DirecTV's back  people who fume whenever DirecTV's software screws up.


Will you cease fuming because you will no longer have DVR+ DVRs to kick around? Or will you cease fuming because you finally realize that Tivo can't do it any better?


----------



## Matt L

Neither. Some people just like to fume.....


----------



## Wil

Matt L said:


> Some people just like to fume.....


Some people have a consciousness of where they are, and were brought up to have manners. In a Tivo forum, subforum DirecTivo, they may think this is a good place to discuss DirecTivos. If they wanted to hype DirecTV non-Tivo units and dis Tivo, they would do that someplace else.

For some reason I have never understood, people who are advocates for non-Tivo DirecTV units (not that there's anything wrong with that), including DirecTV employees, hang around here to kneejerk knock Tivo at any opportunity. I just don't see the profit in that. It's inappropriate and resented, and occasionally there are fumes in reaction. From those who, except for reacting to the boorishness, wouldn't care.

Now, you can quick in your mind make a list of names, four or five people, who you can absolutely predict will jump in here and post pro-DirecTV, anti-Tivo responses to this post.

Why do they do that here? Over and over and over again. Some of them for years.


----------



## joed32

I come here to watch the fights. As you said they have been going on for years and I want to be here to see how it all ends. Which is better Tivo or HR2X? What could be more fun. To me they're just DVRs, but to a lot of people who come here they are passions.


----------



## shibby191

Wil said:


> Some people have a consciousness of where they are, and were brought up to have manners. In a Tivo forum, subforum DirecTivo, they may think this is a good place to discuss DirecTivos. If they wanted to hype DirecTV non-Tivo units and dis Tivo, they would do that someplace else.
> 
> For some reason I have never understood, people who are advocates for non-Tivo DirecTV units (not that there's anything wrong with that), including DirecTV employees, hang around here to kneejerk knock Tivo at any opportunity. I just don't see the profit in that. It's inappropriate and resented, and occasionally there are fumes in reaction. From those who, except for reacting to the boorishness, wouldn't care.
> 
> Now, you can quick in your mind make a list of names, four or five people, who you can absolutely predict will jump in here and post pro-DirecTV, anti-Tivo responses to this post.
> 
> Why do they do that here? Over and over and over again. Some of them for years.


I'll only say 2 things:

1) Without DirecTV talk this thread and others like it would be dead. There would be about 5 posts total because there is very little actual information that anyone really knows.

So given that the thread is mostly just speculation discussion.

2) And this leads to the obvious comparison to current DirecTV DVRs that are not Tivo because guess what, they are in competition or at the least the new DirecTivo will incorporate many of the DVR+ features along with Tivo specific stuff. The HR2x's are very much relevant to a discussion of a new DirecTivo box, like it or not.

So if you want absolutely no DirecTV specific discussion at all then everyone needs to stop posting because there is no info on the DirecTivo and nothing more then we knew 2 yrs ago other then the continued delays.

Oh, here is some new news: In DirecTV's 2nd qrt earnings call, the new DirecTivo nor Tivo in general were talked about and no analyst asked a question about Tivo. So there is the most up to date info....nothing new. 

The one thing I don't get is why one platform has to "win" over the other. Wil, you seem to think this in previous posts and I pointed out that neither Tivo or DirecTV have been developing this new DirecTivo to "take over" for the DVR+ line. It has always been slotted as a premium product at a higher price. So why in your mind must it all of a sudden take over as the primary DVR to be successful? Even if all it got in terms of subs was half a million over the next 2-3 yrs after launch that may very well be a "success" to both Tivo and DirecTV. Some may pan Tivo for not selling much but again, why must it outsell the DVR+ to be successful?

It doesn't.


----------



## bigpuma

Wil said:


> Some people have a consciousness of where they are, and were brought up to have manners. In a Tivo forum, subforum DirecTivo, they may think this is a good place to discuss DirecTivos. If they wanted to hype DirecTV non-Tivo units and dis Tivo, they would do that someplace else.
> 
> For some reason I have never understood, people who are advocates for non-Tivo DirecTV units (not that there's anything wrong with that), including DirecTV employees, hang around here to kneejerk knock Tivo at any opportunity. I just don't see the profit in that. It's inappropriate and resented, and occasionally there are fumes in reaction. From those who, except for reacting to the boorishness, wouldn't care.
> 
> Now, you can quick in your mind make a list of names, four or five people, who you can absolutely predict will jump in here and post pro-DirecTV, anti-Tivo responses to this post.
> 
> Why do they do that here? Over and over and over again. Some of them for years.


Sorry but that is a load of bull. First I doubt there are any DirecTV employees posting here. Second people are entitled to their opinions just like there are a few individuals you can count on defending DirecTV you can count on many defending TiVo no matter what. Some people think this forum should restrict posts to only pro-TiVo discussions which IMO would make this site worthless. The point of this forum is to discuss DirecTV and TiVo and right now there is very little to talk about so it is all speculation. Part of that discussion includes comparing TiVo to it's competition like the HR2x series so it makes sense to discuss those things since that is all that is available at this time.

Hopefully we will see more information or the new HD TiVo for DirecTV will be released this year and we will actually have something to compare until then it is all just conjecture and opinion and no one really knows much about it. At least no one who is posting here.


----------



## Syzygy

Wil said:


> For some reason I have never understood, people who are advocates for non-Tivo DirecTV units ... hang around here to kneejerk knock Tivo at any opportunity...
> 
> Now, you can quick in your mind make a list of names, four or five people, who you can absolutely predict will jump in here and post pro-DirecTV, anti-Tivo responses to this post.
> 
> Why do they do that here? Over and over and over again. Some of them for years.


Exactly. You said it better than I could. I was just asking myself, why do some people automatically post rude, unfunny comebacks to every pro-TiVo opinion? Maybe only an FBI profiler could come up with a theory.


----------



## bigpuma

Syzygy said:


> Exactly. You said it better than I could. I was just asking myself, why do some people automatically post rude, unfunny comebacks to every pro-TiVo opinion? Maybe only an FBI profiler could come up with a theory.


Honestly reading this forum it goes the other direction a lot more often but I guess that's ok since the name of the forum is *Tivo*community.com


----------



## Wil

bigpuma said:


> Some people think this forum should restrict posts to only pro-TiVo discussions


I don't know of any such people, but if you think you do you are certainly entitled to that opinion.

_I_ don't believe discussion should be limited to pro-Tivo. I have been very critical of Tivo, if not in this specific thread (I can't remember offhand) certainly elsewhere in TCF.

What I'm talking about here is a clear. Any vaguely pro-Tivo comment is met with a chorus of anti-Tivo, pro DirecTV responses. With the same language from the same people, over and over again. In the past this was led by a person who eventually admitted he received compensation from DirecTV, and subsequent to that announced, surprise, that he had been hired full time and was on DirecTV's payroll.

That this pattern provokes a very occasional venting rant from a Tivo Community Forum member, on a Tivo thread, should not be surprising.


----------



## 230

My 10-250's and 20-700's are living together in peace and harmony. It will be tough for my wife to give up her tivo.


----------



## bigpuma

Wil said:


> I don't know of any such people, but if you think you do you are certainly entitled to that opinion.
> 
> _I_ don't believe discussion should be limited to pro-Tivo. I have been very critical of Tivo, if not in this specific thread (I can't remember offhand) certainly elsewhere in TCF.


I just think you are exaggerating. If anything this site has a very pro TiVo bias, which makes sense considering the site name.



> What I'm talking about here is a clear. Any vaguely pro-Tivo comment is met with a chorus of anti-Tivo, pro DirecTV responses. With the same language from the same people, over and over again. In the past this was led by a person who eventually admitted he received compensation from DirecTV, and subsequent to that announced, surprise, that he had been hired full time and was on DirecTV's payroll.


First of all you are talking about one member who stopped posting the day he was hired by DirecTV. What compensation did he receive prior to that? When he was hired he made the announcement and said he would no longer post here. Do you have a link to where he admitted to receiving compensation while he was posting here?


----------



## TyroneShoes

shibby191 said:


> ... Without DirecTV talk this thread and others like it would be dead. There would be about 5 posts total because there is very little actual information that anyone really knows....The HR2x's are very much relevant to a discussion of a new DirecTivo box, like it or not...


Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winnah! Way to go, shib; talk about hitting the nail on the head.

While he could not actually bring himself to say the word "HD DVR+" out loud, Mod Mike Lang added a very shrewd sticky to this forum _"new DirecTV models may be discussed here too!". _Of course it was after much continued prodding, but he eventually saw the light, which is that without that discussion, traffic would surely drop to nil, not what an internet site ever has in mind. Ironically, it is the Tivo-killer HD DVR itself that has kept this Tivo forum alive, like it or not (as shibby puts it). Rather than pretending it doesn't exist, the forum rightly embraced it.

It is a complete no-brainer that a Tivo forum should not exclude talk about what competes with Tivo. That is the very info many folks are looking for to help them make a comparison, which is the basic strategy to making smart choices.


----------



## Matt L

Wil said:


> Some people have a consciousness of where they are, and were brought up to have manners. In a Tivo forum, subforum DirecTivo, they may think this is a good place to discuss DirecTivos. If they wanted to hype DirecTV non-Tivo units and dis Tivo, they would do that someplace else.
> 
> For some reason I have never understood, people who are advocates for non-Tivo DirecTV units (not that there's anything wrong with that), including DirecTV employees, hang around here to kneejerk knock Tivo at any opportunity. I just don't see the profit in that. It's inappropriate and resented, and occasionally there are fumes in reaction. From those who, except for reacting to the boorishness, wouldn't care.
> 
> Now, you can quick in your mind make a list of names, four or five people, who you can absolutely predict will jump in here and post pro-DirecTV, anti-Tivo responses to this post.
> 
> Why do they do that here? Over and over and over again. Some of them for years.


No.

Thus forum is open to all D units....

If you look at my join date you will note it's 10 years now. At that point I had my tivos and loved them. I put up with all the issues, and there were DOZENS of them when the HR10-250 came out and I paid $1000 for that unit. I was a very big proponent of the format up until last year. What happened? My logic overtook my heart. Why should I give up well over a hundred HD channels, and much of the programming I liked in HD, just because I was enamored with an operating system?

I got my first HR23 in May of last year, quickly signed up for the ce program and have enjoyed hundreds of hours of stellar HD content. Fact is I still have an active HR10 in my equipment stack, I check in on it from time to time to see if it's still running but that is about it. As for the shortcomings you perceive with the HR2x unit, some are valid and some are not. Funny thing is TiVos have shortcomings too. And I certain _if_ a new DTiVo ever rears it's head it will have issues like every other electronic product.

For some reason you and others like to imbue the TiVo with some mystical power, a product that is faultless. Much like a segment of the Apple users group. Sorry, both are just operating systems.


----------



## TyroneShoes

Matt L said:


> No.
> 
> Thus forum is open to all D units....
> 
> If you look at my join date you will note it's 10 years now. At that point I had my tivos and loved them. I put up with all the issues, and there were DOZENS of them when the HR10-250 came out and I paid $1000 for that unit...
> 
> I got my first HR23 in May of last year, quickly signed up for the ce program and have enjoyed hundreds of hours of stellar HD content. Fact is I still have an active HR10 in my equipment stack, I check in on it from time to time to see if it's still running but that is about it. As for the shortcomings you perceive with the HR2x unit, some are valid and some are not. Funny thing is TiVos have shortcomings too. And I certain _if_ a new DTiVo ever rears it's head it will have issues like every other electronic product.
> 
> For some reason you and others like to imbue the TiVo with some mystical power, a product that is faultless. Much like a segment of the Apple users group. Sorry, both are just operating systems.


I agree. I had a standalone Tivo in 1999. You can probably guess what sort of issues it had. I even became a Tivo hater for how small the HDD was, the fact that it was really hard to manage 14 hours of capacity with no reserve capacity meter, the fact that you had to press many buttons to do the same task that other DVRs could do in fewer, and numerous other things including IR-only interface with DISH. My Replay and ShowTimer both ran rings around my Tivo, and neither of them wanted to rape me to the tune of 12 bucks a month for the privilege.

But then came the bit-bucket era. I suffered with DISH POS DVRs from 2000-2004. Talk about your issues. That forced me to DTV where the DTivo had really blossomed into a terrific platform.

And that continued into the HD era--by 2004 the HR10 had few if any issues. It was the most reliable plaform ever, at least by then, and probably of all time, at least to date. Note that this is a longer lead time (2000-2004) than we have had to date with the HR2x platform, and while not as stable or intuitive as the HR10 at its peak, is probably by now nearly as stable and intuitive as the HR10 is today, especially since the HR10 went through a very dark period after v3.1 with v6.x, with issues it still has not conquered. I too have two active HR10's in my stack, but I only use them for overflow or when I can get OTA HD that is well-served by slo-mo. In 2004 there was nothing even close, and much of HD was OTA, which Tivo integrated seamlessly. I unashamedly called it the most advanced and sophisticated piece of HT gear I had ever owned or seen. That the HR2x is now a very close competitor is a tribute to how good both are.

Now Apple is somewhat a different story. While Apple and Tivo are probably the two companies that produce my favorite gear of all time, neither is perfect, has ever been perfect, or ever will be. And hot on the heels of Apple is Google Android and other strong competitors, just like DTV DVRs are strong competitors to the Tivo platform.

But these two companies could not be more different if measured by success. Apple is the top tech company of the day, while Tivo is struggling to even stay alive, let alone stay relevant. Apple had its dark days around 1998 when many figured they were done-stick a fork in them. They were deader than Tivo. But that turned out to be simply a wrong turn down a dark cul-de-sac due to insanely incompetent management. Just a blip. Maybe a 10-year blip, but a blip just the same.

While not a fanboy, during the reign of Steve Jobs I and the reign of Steve Jobs II, they could do no wrong, at least up until about 2005 when they started to buy and scuttle great companies like Logic Audio and put out laptops inferior to 2003 PowerBook models that still rival the laptops they put out today in many ways, if you ignore proc power. Beginning in 2005 Steve and crew got fat, lazy, distracted by Pixar and personal illness, and didn't really do anything of note between the iPod/iTunes of 2001 and the iPhone in 2007.

Of course they put out the premiere OS in 2000, and it still kicks every other OS's ass. But that is languishing and no longer their distinctive product, and neither, actually, are their phones. Apple suffers from the same problem that Tivo suffers from, in that their products (DVRs, OS, iPhone) have all been so seminal, so influential, that they end up competing with their own ideas, thrown back at them from the likes of Android and HR2x, who took their great visionary ideas and ran with them.

Apple and Tivo showed the world how to do consumer technology. Both revolutionized it. That's a legacy to be proud of. But it is hard to stay on top once you show everyone else how to do it. And its hard to take a legacy to the bank and cash it like a check. You have to continue to innovate, continue to lead. I believe at least one of those companies can and will continue to do that. I'm not so sure about the other. Stick a fork in _them_.


----------



## Matt L

Looks like TiVo and Cox have been busy....

http://www.nytimes.com/external/gigaom/2010/08/12/12gigaom-tivo-premieres-on-cox-22510.html


----------



## samo

> On the TiVo website, the company says Premiere DVRs supporting the Cox service will launch in select Cox markets at a later date.


Sounds familiar. Even more specific than "second half of the 20XX"


----------



## Wil

samo said:


> Sounds familiar. Even more specific than "second half of the 20XX"


"Tivo=BAD!"

Why not just make that your sig and post blank messages. Efficiency.


----------



## davezatz

Matt L said:


> Looks like TiVo and Cox have been busy....
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/external/gigaom/2010/08/12/12gigaom-tivo-premieres-on-cox-22510.html


Actually, they haven't been that busy. These guys originally inked a deal in 2006 and we haven't yet seen anything tangible. 

Regarding this "new" deal, testing begins later this year but I couldn't get any details on when it'll be fully rolled out. Sounds like it could be 2011.


----------



## shibby191

Wil said:


> "Tivo=BAD!"
> 
> Why not just make that your sig and post blank messages. Efficiency.


No. He's just making a dig at the fact that Tivo and Cox announced a deal *4 yrs ago* and nothing has happened yet. Now a *new* announcement with not even a timeframe given. It's just funny. LOL.

I take it that Tivo can't be criticized at all in your mind? Wow


----------



## whitepelican

samo said:


> Sounds familiar. Even more specific than "second half of the 20XX"


They should always just say "soon" like DirecTV does.


----------



## sjberra

whitepelican said:


> They should always just say "soon" like DirecTV does.


soon at Directv means it will be here, soon for tivo means maybe, or then again maybe not


----------



## Syzygy

Again, DirecTV good, TiVo bad. Give it a rest already!


----------



## whitepelican

sjberra said:


> soon at Directv means it will be here, soon for tivo means maybe, or then again maybe not


Yup, should only be a few more seconds until we see that DirecTV HDPC-20. Oh, wait...


----------



## shibby191

Syzygy said:


> Again, DirecTV good, TiVo bad. Give it a rest already!


LOL.

I think he's commenting more on the track record of the companies. Just take a look at it and you'll see that statement if more right then wrong. Doesn't mean either one is "good" or "bad". Perhaps you should get it out of your system that not everyone is out "to get" Tivo.


----------



## rolybert

Syzygy said:


> Again, DirecTV good, TiVo bad. Give it a rest already!


Dont let it make you crazy Every time I come in here there seems to be more and more talk about the Directv dvr and less and less TiVo fans. Little by little they are taking over the sub forum(D* Fans) One day I kind of expect to see the Mods remove the word TiVo from the name of the sub forum


----------



## whitepelican

shibby191 said:


> I think he's commenting more on the track record of the companies.


What product has Tivo announced and not delivered? Even the ComcasTivo exists in the real world to some extent. But I provided one example above of a DirecTV announced product (HDPC-20) that never saw the light of day. It looks like "track record" is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## shibby191

whitepelican said:


> What product has Tivo announced and not delivered? Even the ComcasTivo exists in the real world to some extent. But I provided one example above of a DirecTV announced product (HDPC-20) that never saw the light of day. It looks like "track record" is in the eye of the beholder.


The comment he made wasn't that Tivo didn't deliver, just that maybe, maybe not.

Let's see...Comcast Tivo very late, but finally rolled out. However *still* in very limited markets some 5 yrs later so not really rolled out.

Cox Tivo, announced what, 4-5 yrs ago and never delivered. Now some new announcement that they will do something...someday.

DirecTV Tivo, announced and has blown 2 or 3 delivery dates. Still no sign of it.

So I think he is commenting mostly on Tivo's recent lateness or moreso lack of rolling things out they say they will.

For DirecTV, sure, they have late issues too. The first HR20 was a few months late and half baked when they were pretty much forced to release it early since MPEG4 HD was moving forward and they didn't have a DVR yet for it.

HDPC-20 was canceled jointly by Microsoft and DirecTV. It was in beta testing though what I understand.

But recent track record of DirecTV is that they have announced something and delivered.
Tivo, not so much.

Can't change the facts. Again, doesn't mean either is good or bad. He was just stating the fact of the matter. You don't have to like it.


----------



## shibby191

whitepelican said:


> What product has Tivo announced and not delivered? Even the ComcasTivo exists in the real world to some extent. But I provided one example above of a DirecTV announced product (HDPC-20) that never saw the light of day. It looks like "track record" is in the eye of the beholder.


The comment he made wasn't that Tivo didn't deliver, just that maybe, maybe not.

Let's see...Comcast Tivo very late, but finally rolled out. However *still* in very limited markets some 5 yrs later so not really rolled out.

Cox Tivo, announced what, 4-5 yrs ago and never delivered. Now some new announcement that they will do something...someday.

DirecTV Tivo, announced and has blown 2 or 3 delivery dates. Still no sign of it.

So I think he is commenting mostly on Tivo's recent lateness or moreso lack of rolling things out they say they will.

For DirecTV, sure, they have late issues too. The first HR20 was a few months late and half baked when they were pretty much forced to release it early since MPEG4 HD was moving forward and they didn't have a DVR yet for it.

HDPC-20 was canceled jointly by Microsoft and DirecTV. It was in beta testing though what I understand. But never rolled out.

But more recent track record of DirecTV is that they have announced something and delivered.

Tivo, not so much.

Can't change the facts. Again, doesn't mean either is good or bad. He was just stating the fact of the matter. You don't have to like it.


----------



## Patferr

tivoknucklehead said:


> I only have 0 posts so I can't use hyperlinks from somebody's quote.....WTF


BOOORRRRRRIIIIIINNNNNNNG......this guy could put any insomniac to sleep within seconds.


----------



## sjberra

whitepelican said:


> Yup, should only be a few more seconds until we see that DirecTV HDPC-20. Oh, wait...


As soon as the HDPC-20 shows up the tivo unit will. Oh wait, they are both blue smoke and mirrors, at least there where photos of actual units and of those showing it working, unlike the vaporware from Tivo

http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/09/directv-suspends-development-on-hdpc-20-tuner/

http://hd.engadget.com/2008/11/19/the-media-center-directv-hdpc-20-caught-in-action/


----------



## sjberra

whitepelican said:


> What product has Tivo announced and not delivered? Even the ComcasTivo exists in the real world to some extent. But I provided one example above of a DirecTV announced product (HDPC-20) that never saw the light of day. It looks like "track record" is in the eye of the beholder.


Actually yes the HDPC-20 DID see the light of day

http://hd.engadget.com/2008/11/19/the-media-center-directv-hdpc-20-caught-in-action/

it just never made it to the retail market, where are the photos of the new direct tivo unit?


----------



## sjberra

whitepelican said:


> Yup, should only be a few more seconds until we see that DirecTV HDPC-20. Oh, wait...


at least it was a physical box and not a pipe dream like some other products we can mention at the moment - can I year 1st qtr 2012 for a tivo based unit, works on the time line - werer not the cable boxs 4 ot 5 years late?


----------



## solofara

Opinions opinioins - regardless, the service is great.


----------



## sluciani

Yesterday, Tom Rogers again mentioned end of year for the new DirecTiVo in the analyst call. He also mentioned that Technicolor (formerly Thomson) is making the box. I believe they make all the "-100" models for DirecTV.


----------



## davezatz

I think it's quite possible release could slip into 2011... Even Tom Rogers left the door open yesterday during the Q&A:

"it's something that we hope to be able to push out late this year."


----------



## sluciani

davezatz said:


> I think it's quite possible release could slip into 2011... Even Tom Rogers left the door open yesterday during the Q&A:
> 
> "it's something that we hope to be able to push out late this year."


Thanks for posting that. I didn't see that he back-pedaled a bit afterwards. I was basing my post on his earlier statement: _"On top of all this notable momentum in the U.S., our plan remains to launch DIRECTV by year end [...]"_

Thought as someone on another forum noted, he could have been reading from last year's notes.


----------



## HiDefGator

"we hope to push it out late this year" 

I don't think he could have been more clear that it will not be this year.


----------



## llarch

HiDefGator said:


> "we hope to push it out late this year"
> 
> I don't think he could have been more clear that it will not be this year.


Agreed. That's executive speak for "no way in hell will it be out this year". He even had a Freudian slip using the term "push it" which usually means to slip your schedule.


----------



## TyroneShoes

HiDefGator said:


> "we hope to push it out late this year"
> 
> I don't think he could have been more clear that it will not be this year.


Now you're just being silly. While I agree that odds for it this year are slim, the quote was not clear at all regarding time frame, in fact it was significantly ambiguous. "We will push it out late this year" could not be more clear. "We will NOT push it out this year" could not be more clear. But neither of those were actually said. What was actually said was about as clear as mud.


----------



## plazman30

According the DirectTV customer service (which should be taken with a grain of salt...), DirectTV is waiting for the outcome of the Dish Network/Tivo lawsuit before they decide if they're even going to proceed with Tivo based DVRs.

Needless to say I called Verizon after that, and the FIOS tech will be out on October 1st to install FIOS TV with a cable card into my new Tivo I am about to purchase.


----------



## litzdog911

plazman30 said:


> According the DirectTV customer service (which should be taken with a grain of salt...), ....


Or something less than a grain of salt. Tivo and DirecTV have already resolved their DVR patent issues.


----------



## Enrique

litzdog911 said:


> Or something less than a grain of salt. Tivo and DirecTV have already resolved their DVR patent issues.


There never was a patent issue. They both signed a do-not-sue clause in a contract extension sometime ago.


----------



## litzdog911

Enrique said:


> There was never a patent issue. They both signed a do-not-sue clause in a contract extension sometime ago.


Guess that's what I meant to say 
At any rate, there are no legal issues blocking DirecTV and Tivo's future HD DirecTV/Tivo DVR.


----------



## plazman30

litzdog911 said:


> Guess that's what I meant to say
> At any rate, there are no legal issues blocking DirecTV and Tivo's future HD DirecTV/Tivo DVR.


I'm sure there are no patent issues now. But I tend to think as part of any kind of no-sue clause, DirectTV agreed to offer a Tivo box. If the review that Dish was just granted somehow invalidates Tivo's patent, then DirectTV really has no need to go forward with a Tivo based DVR, now do they?

Tivos UI is so far superior to all the others out there, I don't understand why everyone just doesn't either use their interface on their DVR or simply give you a Tivo with cablecards in it as your DVR. RCN just gives you a Tivo is you ask for it as a DVR.

At least Verizon will give me a CableCard and let me use a Tivo. I understand that DirectTV can't use cable cards and a proprietary DVR is needed.

I didn't go high def until October 2008, because the family loved the Tivo so much and DTV promised us a Tivo based DVR in the "first half of 2009". Well here it is, the second half of 2010 and still no Tivo. My contract is up at the end of September, and I really don't want to wait anymore. Plus the FIOS bundle is going to save me $70 a month, and I don't have to go with Comcast.


----------



## shibby191

plazman30 said:


> I'm sure there are no patent issues now. But I tend to think as part of any kind of no-sue clause, DirectTV agreed to offer a Tivo box. If the review that Dish was just granted somehow invalidates Tivo's patent, then DirectTV really has no need to go forward with a Tivo based DVR, now do they?


Their new contract renewal included the renewal of the no-sue clause that they have had forever *and* included Tivo building a new HD DVR for DirecTV. The Dish thing has *nothing* to do with Tivo and DirecTV's agreement. If DirecTV up and decided not to do the new Tivo box they could, but they would pay millions in breaking the contract fees, open themselves up to being sued for breach of contract and also very possibly nullify the whole contract which would include the no-sue clause. Why in the world would DirecTV do that?


----------



## bigpuma

plazman30 said:


> I'm sure there are no patent issues now. But I tend to think as part of any kind of no-sue clause, DirectTV agreed to offer a Tivo box. If the review that Dish was just granted somehow invalidates Tivo's patent, then DirectTV really has no need to go forward with a Tivo based DVR, now do they?
> 
> Tivos UI is so far superior to all the others out there, I don't understand why everyone just doesn't either use their interface on their DVR or simply give you a Tivo with cablecards in it as your DVR. RCN just gives you a Tivo is you ask for it as a DVR.
> 
> At least Verizon will give me a CableCard and let me use a Tivo. I understand that DirectTV can't use cable cards and a proprietary DVR is needed.
> 
> I didn't go high def until October 2008, because the family loved the Tivo so much and DTV promised us a Tivo based DVR in the "first half of 2009". Well here it is, the second half of 2010 and still no Tivo. My contract is up at the end of September, and I really don't want to wait anymore. Plus the FIOS bundle is going to save me $70 a month, and I don't have to go with Comcast.


First of all I don't agree that TiVo's UI is superior to DirecTV's DVR. I have used both and I think they are about equal. I like some things about TiVo better and some things about the DirecTV DVR better. It is a matter of opinion.

Second there are many factors as to why someone might choose TiVo with Cable/FIOS vs. DirecTV with their DVR. Cost is part of it, Cable choices is another. I don't have the option to go with FIOS or ATT Uverse. My only other choice is DISH or Charter. Charter has far fewer HD channels in my area. For me the choice is easy but I am interested in seeing the new TiVo for DirecTV if it ever materializes.


----------



## plazman30

bigpuma said:


> First of all I don't agree that TiVo's UI is superior to DirecTV's DVR. I have used both and I think they are about equal. I like some things about TiVo better and some things about the DirecTV DVR better. It is a matter of opinion.


I have the HR-22 in the living room and the Tivo SD DVR in the basement. Both my wife and I feel that the Tivo UI is better. We actually really wish we had a HD Tivo box from DirectTV every time we turn on the TV in the basement.

The one thing I love about the Tivo is the ability to hop between tuners. A killer feature for me.


----------



## Syzygy

plazman30 said:


> We actually really wish we had a HD Tivo box from DirectTV every time we turn on the TV in the basement.
> 
> The one thing I love about the Tivo is the ability to hop between tuners. A killer feature for me.


True dat.

But the one thing I *hate *about the HR2x is the way it searches. Here are the search problems of which I'm aware:

• Search results include all channels: VOD shows, PPV channels, and all the channels you can't get. Although the titles are grayed for MOST of the channels you can't get, the useless entries still waste the user's time.
• Searches always produce lists that identify channels only by number.
• Boolean expressions for searching remain undocumented and difficult to use.
• Keyword searches are limited to 50 characters, and the TTITLE and CCHAN operators are unnecessarily long.
• The list of Recent Searches is limited to 25, so you must frequently recreate them.
• Smart Search frequently fails to find any matches at all.
• Searching often fails to find all matches that are in the Guide, even missing shows that are on in the next 24 hours - no matter that there are 11 days' worth of Guide data.
• Search's incremental matching often freezes, requiring the entry of an additional character to make it respond to the last one.
• Search's incremental matching always clears the list of results if you enter an extra character that matches nothing.
• Often the first item in the list of Smart Search results is discarded each time you select any item in order to explore it.


----------



## shibby191

plazman30 said:


> The one thing I love about the Tivo is the ability to hop between tuners. A killer feature for me.


Ummmm, the HR2x has had that feature for a couple years now. Just hit the down arrow twice to activate and it works just like Tivo to swap tuners. Only difference is the extra down arrow to activate it.


----------



## Syzygy

shibby191 said:


> Ummmm, the HR2x has had that feature for a couple years now. Just hit the down arrow twice to activate and it works just like Tivo to swap tuners. Only difference is the extra down arrow to activate it.


You don't get it. With the HR2x, there's no way to discover what's in the background tuner's buffer. You have to select a channel without having that information.


----------



## whitepelican

shibby191 said:


> Ummmm, the HR2x has had that feature for a couple years now. Just hit the down arrow twice to activate and it works just like Tivo to swap tuners. Only difference is the extra down arrow to activate it.


And, as usual, you overstate DirecTV's case. The "Double Play" feature has been active for  almost exactly one year. And as Syzygy pointed out, it's not the same feature as Tivo's dual live buffers, and it's a pain in the ass to have to turn it on all the time.


----------



## bigpuma

whitepelican said:


> And, as usual, you overstate DirecTV's case. The "Double Play" feature has been active for  almost exactly one year. And as Syzygy pointed out, it's not the same feature as Tivo's dual live buffers, and it's a pain in the ass to have to turn it on all the time.


How exactly is it a "pain in the ass" to have to turn it on? Push the down arrow twice. Not exactly difficult.


----------



## bigpuma

plazman30 said:


> I have the HR-22 in the living room and the Tivo SD DVR in the basement. Both my wife and I feel that the Tivo UI is better. We actually really wish we had a HD Tivo box from DirectTV every time we turn on the TV in the basement.
> 
> The one thing I love about the Tivo is the ability to hop between tuners. A killer feature for me.


I also have both, I have an HR21, HR22, and an old HR10. Again I understand that in your opinion the old directivos are superior but I just don't agree. In some ways they were better i.e no 50 series limit etc. In several ways I think the HR2x series is better, i.e. much faster prioritzer re-orginization etc. It's all just a matter of opinion.


----------



## shibby191

whitepelican said:


> And, as usual, you overstate DirecTV's case. The "Double Play" feature has been active for  almost exactly one year. And as Syzygy pointed out, it's not the same feature as Tivo's dual live buffers, and it's a pain in the ass to have to turn it on all the time.


Sorry, it was in CE for a long time before officially released. I know *I* used it well over a year ago.

Wow, hitting down arrow a 2nd time...once...is a real pain in the ass. Your thumb just might cramp up doing that. 

And no, it's not the same feature as Tivo. In fact, each tuner can remember up to 4 independent channels it has previously tuned to making it much more useful during Sunday Ticket for example to bounce around more then 2 games. Very nice.


----------



## shibby191

Syzygy said:


> You don't get it. With the HR2x, there's no way to discover what's in the background tuner's buffer. You have to select a channel without having that information.


Ummmm, ok.  And having some random channel in the background tuner is helpful how?

Gee, you turn it on, flip the tuner, tune to the other game and swap between the two with one button push to your hearts content. Which is how it works on a Tivo. Let's not make something crazy out of nothing here.

Oh I forgot. Everything Tivo does is better then anything else on the planet. My apologies.


----------



## Matt L

Yup, and the HR2x buffer is 3 times as longs as the TiVo buffer.... Real shortcoming there.

And yes, the dual buffer has been around a lot longer than a year - you just had to know how to get it.


----------



## Rainy Dave

I don't spend a whole lot of time watching live tv, so the dual buffer doesn't get used much. :shrug:


----------



## Syzygy

Syzygy said:


> True dat.
> 
> But the one thing I *hate *about the HR2x is the way it searches. Here are the search problems of which I'm aware...


I notice the D* fanboys are as quiet as little mice about my list of search bugs/deficiencies.

(On DBSTalk, the best _riposte _they've come up with is that they're happy to see D* increasing their PPV/VOD income by irritating all users  themselves included.)


----------



## whitepelican

Matt L said:


> And yes, the dual buffer has been around a lot longer than a year - you just had to know how to get it.


And you had to be willing to risk losing all your recordings and settings by running "High Risk" beta software.


----------



## shibby191

Syzygy said:


> I notice the D* fanboys are as quiet as little mice about my list of search bugs/deficiencies.


Well, search has issues for some people. Is that what you want to hear? Then again I think Windows Media Center is just as good or better then both in many cases. 

But it's like a lot of these things. Some people find Tivo search better, others find DirecTV better. Especially with search/wishlists it all comes down to how you use it. Same with many other features when you compare them.


----------



## shibby191

whitepelican said:


> And you had to be willing to risk losing all your recordings and settings by running "High Risk" beta software.


Either way does it really matter? Fact is that DirecTV has had the dual buffer feature for quite some time and in many ways it's actually better or has more features then Tivo's version. The only downside is that you have to activate it and that is only one extra press of the button, once, to do it so not really a big deal.


----------



## Cudahy

I can only assume that DirecTV still doesn't have an alphabetical search with subcategories because of a Tivo patent. Trying to use the "smart search" is mindbogling.


----------



## whitepelican

shibby191 said:


> and in many ways it's actually better or has more features then Tivo's version


And in many ways it is worse and has fewer features.


----------



## shibby191

whitepelican said:


> And in many ways it is worse and has fewer features.


Isn't that a given? Like every other feature?

The only difference in dual tuners on Tivo's side that I can think of is that it's on all the time. Except in some very specific cases that really doesn't matter. So yes, if that is a key feature of yours (to have something random on the other tuner at all times) then yea, Tivo has a feature that DirecTV doesn't. But maybe for someone else having dual 90 minute buffers vs. 30 minute buffers trumps having random content on the background tuner all the time. To each his own. There is no "correct" answer here.


----------



## samo

Syzygy said:


> I notice the D* fanboys are as quiet as little mice about my list of search bugs/deficiencies.


I'll bite. No reply to your list because it is completely useless and ridiculous comments.


Syzygy said:


>  Search results include all channels: VOD shows, PPV channels, and all the channels you can't get. Although the titles are grayed for MOST of the channels you can't get, the useless entries still waste the user's time.


Yours maybe, but not my. I love to know what is available on PPV and VOD. Your time is so valuable that you can not afford to spent a millisecond it take to scroll down grayed line and yet you can not afford to pay for PPV or VOD so they have no use to you?


>  Searches always produce lists that identify channels only by number.


So you would rather have them identified by name and then look up the number to switch to the channel you want? I don't care what a channel name is as long as it has a program I want to watch.


>  Boolean expressions for searching remain undocumented and difficult to use.


They are very well documented on DBStalk. And they are very powerful tool for people who comprehend a meaning of "and" and "or". Tivo had the skip feature undocumented for years. The only place to find about this feature was TC. So what? Did it make it difficult to use because of that?



>  Keyword searches are limited to 50 characters, and the TTITLE and CCHAN operators are unnecessarily long.


You must be kidding! Why in a world you would want to type a keywords longer than 50 character? It would take you longer to type extra characters than to scroll past few extra lines you may get with shorter keywords.


>  The list of Recent Searches is limited to 25, so you must frequently recreate them.


They call it recent for the reason. You wouldn't expect recent search to show something that you searched for two years ago.


>  Smart Search frequently fails to find any matches at all.


Never happened to me, but I guess if you search for something that doesn't exist ...


>  Searching often fails to find all matches that are in the Guide, even missing shows that are on in the next 24 hours  no matter that there are 11 days' worth of Guide data.


What is your definition of often? Once in a blue moon? Prove it. Provide a recent search that doesn't find all matches and I'll believe you.


>  Search's incremental matching often freezes, requiring the entry of an additional character to make it respond to the last one.


It does not freeze, but it may take a second or two to respond


>  Search's incremental matching always clears the list of results if you enter an extra character that matches nothing.


And what do you want it to do if it matches nothing? Use the backspace if you made a typo.


>  Often the first item in the list of Smart Search results is discarded each time you select any item in order to explore it.


Again explain "often". Make specific example that could be verified.
Bottom line, your list is bunch of nuisance. If you want people to respond, get your head out of the sand and complain about something that is a real problem.


----------



## Syzygy

samo said:


> I'll bite. *No reply *to your list because it is completely useless and ridiculous comments...


Gotcha! I guess you couldn't leave the cheese alone.  "No reply," followed by 11 paragraphs of protest?

I believe an unbiased reader will find that the real "nuisance" is your list of denials and/or minimizations of D*'s search deficiencies (although it _is _sorta funny).


----------



## joed32

Sometimes smart search fails to find something but when I use the guide to look for it I find it. Doesn't happen every day but about once a week. Also I do miss the wish list feature. While I do think that Syzygy's lists are mostly just nitpicking, some of his complaints are valid.
I still prefer smart search to Tivos search feature, but would love to have wish lists and undelete added to the HR series. I would only go back to Tivo if the HRs were no longer available.


----------



## sjberra

Syzygy said:


> I notice the D* fanboys are as quiet as little mice about my list of search bugs/deficiencies.
> 
> (On DBSTalk, the best _riposte _they've come up with is that they're happy to see D* increasing their PPV/VOD income by irritating all users - themselves included.)


why bother - some of those you list are personal preferences andnot deficiences. Not worht the powder and shot required to debunk them


----------



## sjberra

Syzygy said:


> Gotcha! I guess you couldn't leave the cheese alone.  "No reply," followed by 11 paragraphs of protest?
> 
> I believe an unbiased reader will find that the real "nuisance" is your list of denials and/or minimizations of D*'s search deficiencies (although it _is _sorta funny).


"unbiased reader" that search would be less productive and even less successful then Diogenes of Sinope's search


----------



## Syzygy

sjberra said:


> "unbiased reader?" That search would be less productive than Diogenes' search


LOL. You're right. What was I thinking, "unbiased reader?"


----------



## joed32

Syzygy said:


> LOL. You're right. What was I thinking, "unbiased reader?"


Now that would take some search feature!


----------



## sjberra

Syzygy said:


> LOL. You're right. What was I thinking, "unbiased reader?"


first and last thing I will ever agree with you on


----------



## Syzygy

sjberra said:


> first and last thing I will ever agree with you on


Very confrontational, aren't you?

You have no idea how many opinions we might have in common. Nor do I.


----------



## joed32

Lets not get too friendly here, I come to watch the fights.


----------



## Matt L

I just noticed something interesting today on my HR2x series boxes, I may have missed it and it's been around for a while, but now there is a listing "You May Like" or something to that effect. It suggests show that are similar to what you are looking at and gives a list.

While it's not as powerful as TiVo's suggestions in that TiVo goes out and autorecords and bases the suggestions on an algorithm, it shows the gap is closing. I know the die hard TiVo fans will dismiss it automatically, but it's one step closer to TiVo features.

I will be curious to see exactly what a new TiVo offers if it ever shows up.


----------



## plazman30

Matt L said:


> I just noticed something interesting today on my HR2x series boxes, I may have missed it and it's been around for a while, but now there is a listing "You May Like" or something to that effect. It suggests show that are similar to what you are looking at and gives a list.
> 
> While it's not as powerful as TiVo's suggestions in that TiVo goes out and autorecords and bases the suggestions on an algorithm, it shows the gap is closing. I know the die hard TiVo fans will dismiss it automatically, but it's one step closer to TiVo features.
> 
> I will be curious to see exactly what a new TiVo offers if it ever shows up.


Sounds like a cool feature that was borrow from Tivo. I still prefer the Tivo UI over any other DVR, but DTV's DVR is a close second at this point.

Andy


----------



## shibby191

Matt L said:


> I just noticed something interesting today on my HR2x series boxes, I may have missed it and it's been around for a while, but now there is a listing "You May Like" or something to that effect. It suggests show that are similar to what you are looking at and gives a list.
> 
> While it's not as powerful as TiVo's suggestions in that TiVo goes out and autorecords and bases the suggestions on an algorithm, it shows the gap is closing. I know the die hard TiVo fans will dismiss it automatically, but it's one step closer to TiVo features.
> 
> I will be curious to see exactly what a new TiVo offers if it ever shows up.


That was added end of last year I believe.


----------



## ClubrhythmEnt

joed32 said:


> Sometimes smart search fails to find something but when I use the guide to look for it I find it. Doesn't happen every day but about once a week. Also I do miss the wish list feature. While I do think that Syzygy's lists are mostly just nitpicking, some of his complaints are valid.
> I still prefer smart search to Tivos search feature, but would love to have wish lists and undelete added to the HR series. I would only go back to Tivo if the HRs were no longer available.


You know I would have never noticed this if he hadn't pointed it out. I now check the guide after I execute a search with no results and low and behold every once and a while its in the guide but does not return in a search. Weird.

My top three wants are dual live buffers always on, Wish List, and the recycle bin. I can't tell you how many times I am in a hurry to press buttons or the unit lagged and I end up deleting a program I had not watched yet.


----------



## joed32

ClubrhythmEnt said:


> You know I would have never noticed this if he hadn't pointed it out. I now check the guide after I execute a search with no results and low and behold every once and a while its in the guide but does not return in a search. Weird.
> 
> My top two wants are dual live buffers always on, Wish List, and the recycle bin. I can't tell you how many times I am in a hurry to press buttons or the unit lagged and I end up deleting a program I had not watched yet.


Sometimes I delete something just because I'm not in the mood for it and a few days later I wish I hadn't. That feature was a used a lot more than I thought it would be.


----------



## jmhays

I just received notification that I was rejected from the upcoming DirecTV HD Tivo beta test that is about to start. The information I saw said it would last until the end of this year. This is good news for those of us still holding out for the next HD DirecTivo.


----------



## litzdog911

Short news blurb here ....
http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/09/23/launch.dates.remain.unknown/


----------



## davezatz

litzdog911 said:


> Short news blurb here ....electronista.com


Which they got from me, as cited, that I got from someones.  It's my understanding that no NDAs were broken in sharing this information.

Invite:


> Thank you for your interest in TiVo's beta programs. We'd like to invite you to join the Field Trials Team in beta testing hardware provided to you by TiVo.
> 
> To participate you should be:
> 
> 
> Available to test between now and *January, 2011*.
> Willing to endure potential bugs, even with existing functionality - and report them in a timely manner.
> Willing to complete weekly homework assignments.
> Willing to share your experiences with others in our beta forums.
> 
> As an added bonus, you'll receive a (secret) parting gift for your *active* participation in this beta program! Please note that you must actively participate throughout the beta program in order to be eligible for a gift.


Rejection Letter:


> Thank you for taking the time to sign-up for our DirecTV/TiVo beta program. The response to this beta invitation was much greater than what we had expected. We've now completed our recruitment for this trial and you have not been selected to participate at this time due to the limited amount of space available in this trial.


----------



## innocentfreak

Sounds like if you are a good tester you may get to keep the hardware assuming it is final production units.

It makes me wish I still had Directv slightly just to get a chance to test and play with it.


----------



## stevel

Interesting. I signed up for this as well and have not received any email. Oh well.


----------



## Syzygy

The recruitment period for TiVo's Coyote DVR lasted only 44 hours and 18 minutes (at least for me)...

Emails from TiVo Field Trials Team [[email protected]]:

Tue 9/21/2010 4:18 pm -- FROM TIVO: Opportunity available to join a TiVo Beta Program
Thu 9/23/2010 12:36 pm -- From TiVo: Recruitment for Coyote Beta Closed [sorry about that!]


----------



## innocentfreak

stevel said:


> Interesting. I signed up for this as well and have not received any email. Oh well.


There could be a lot of factors at play. I don't know what they ask about Directv setups on the profile, but depending on if they support SWM and Deca they may be looking for people with existing setups. If they don't they might be looking for people without.

I wonder if there was a follow-up question to determine what setups people currently have and if those are covered under NDA. Most betas I have been in at least for game and other tech companies, they always had the initial invite based off the profile and then a questionnaire to see if you fit the necessary target they were looking for.


----------



## Syzygy

> _*Zatz Not Funny!* said:_
> TiVo, Inc held their quarterly earnings call yesterday. As expected, it was mostly more of the same - revenue down with a net loss (~$15m), subscriber count down (~2.4m), but plenty of cash in the bank ($240m). However, TiVo did answer a long standing question I've had regarding the upcoming but delayed DirecTV TiVo. *Who's building the new box?* And, as it turns out, the latest incarnation of the DirecTiVo will run on Technicolor/Thomson hardware.


But I don't think anyone's building a "*new box*". Here's the actual quote from *TiVo 2Q 2011 earnings discussion*...



> _*Tom Rogers* said:_
> It is also worth pointing out that our software is being ported onto set-top boxes from multiple device manufacturers including Cisco set-top boxes for both ONO and Virgin and Technicolor Thomson set-top boxes for DIRECTV and others, and there are additional set-top box providers showing significant interest in similar relationships.


The DirecTV HR24-100 is made by Thomson/Technicolor, and I have long believed that TiVo, Inc redirected their efforts to the HR24's hardware as soon as (if not before) the HR24 was announced by DirecTV.

The DirecTV HR24-500 is made by Humax, and the two HR24s have different firmware, so I think it would be unlikely (and unwise) to use Humax as a second source for the "Coyote".


----------



## innocentfreak

Syzygy said:


> But I don't think anyone's building a "*new box*". Here's the actual quote from *TiVo 2Q 2011 earnings discussion*...
> 
> The DirecTV HR24-100 is made by Thomson/Technicolor, and I have long believed that TiVo, Inc redirected their efforts to the HR24's hardware as soon as (if not before) the HR24 was announced by DirecTV.
> 
> The DirecTV HR24-500 is made by Humax, and the two HR24s have different firmware, so I think it would be unlikely (and foolish, even) to use Humax as a second source for the "Coyote".


I think he just means new TiVo box and not actually new hardware. Over at dbstalk they found mention from I believe the Technicolor site a model THR-2200, iirc, that uses Broadcom the same chip TiVo always uses. Of course this also probably means it won't be based off the HR24. I am going off memory here so I may be slightly off. It is towards the end of the TiVo thread over there though.


----------



## Syzygy

innocentfreak said:


> I think he just means new TiVo box and not actually new hardware. Over at dbstalk they found mention from I believe the Technicolor site a model THR-2200, iirc, that uses Broadcom the same chip TiVo always uses. Of course this also probably means it won't be based off the HR24. I am going off memory here so I may be slightly off...


It's THR22-100 - here's a link to the post:

*DIRECTV HD Receiver with TiVo (Official Q3 2010 Thread)*

But other posters still believe the MPEG-4 TiVo will be based on the HR24.

P.S. - I don't like the "HR22" in that name. If the new TiVo is as slow as a DirecTV HR22, I'll go with HR24s, even with their abominable software.


----------



## BGLeduc

I just had to know that after close to two years of holding out, and less than one dang week after I succumbed to the pressure and took the swap out from my HR10-250, that this thing would get hot again. 

Oh well, no telling when this thing will actually street, so at a minimum, I have a have a few months to learn the new UI and enjoy a ton more HD channels than I was getting before. Yes, there is life after Tivo, as much as it pains me to say it.

Brian


----------



## Cudahy

So now that beta testing is underway I assume the new Tivo will arrive in January or February?


----------



## innocentfreak

Testing looks like it is scheduled through January so I would say it depends on how it goes. 

Hopefully this does mean though we will see something at CES.


----------



## HiDefGator

innocentfreak said:


> Sounds like if you are a good tester you may get to keep the hardware assuming it is final production units.


unlikely they are final production units. not too surprising that as a beta tester you get to keep them.


----------



## innocentfreak

HiDefGator said:


> unlikely they are final production units. not too surprising that as a beta tester you get to keep them.


Actually it would be depending on the size of the trial. Even small hardware betas rarely get to keep the hardware. I have only once or twice been allowed to keep items while most of the time they send you a prepaid label to ship it back.


----------



## puffdaddy

Recent versions of tivo software include the following information relating to hardware platform support:


Code:


NpkX86Platform
eiger
fusion
troy
neutron
Series4
HR22


----------



## jmhays

I was in a previous DirecTivo beta test and did NOT get to keep the hardware. The NDA of this new test also stated that the hardware HAD to be returned after the testing was complete.


----------



## davezatz

"late 2010" has become "early 2011"

PC Mag has the official word from SVP Joe Miller, who confirms the DirecTV TiVo unit will ship "early next year." Additionally:



> Some of it's timing, some of it's development, their platform architecture continues to change and develop, and we're trying to stream into that, and it's been that as much as anything. Anytime it's a new development on a fluid platform, it's going to take time.


PS I highly doubt beta testers will get to keep this particular hardware. They'll get something else like a TiVo Slide and a coupon for three months of service. Maybe a t-shirt.


----------



## stevel

Traditionally, DirecTV hardware testers get to keep the hardware. I am rather astonished that this beta appears to be run by TiVo rather than DirecTV.


----------



## BOBCAT

Whatever the end product is, I hope it has a OTA tuner as I am in a fringe area and receive out of area programing OTA that D* won't provide. If no an OTA tuner, will just stick with the HR10 as I get all of the HD content OTA that I need.


----------



## stevel

I expect the new box to allow use of the optional AM21 OTA tuner just as all the current DirecTV boxes do.


----------



## Adam1115

All you guys waiting on this thing, let's get another thing out of the way. It'll probably have bugs that need to work out. Realistically early 2011 is going to turn into mid to late 2011 by the time it's readily available, prices come down, the bugs get worked out, etc.

I just got an HR24, if you can't wait I suggest doing the same.


----------



## fasTLane

We can wait.


----------



## Cudahy

Do Beta testers usually allow roundabout info to come out about the specifics of the box?


----------



## innocentfreak

Cudahy said:


> Do Beta testers usually allow roundabout info to come out about the specifics of the box?


Not really unless someone leaks it which honestly I kind of hope they do just because I am curious.

Usually if anything gets out there though the tech sites/blogs will report it.

Personally I am not too optimistic about the new unit. I think it will be ok, but not enough to justify the 3 years from announcement to release. I hope I am wrong though.


----------



## Syzygy

Adam1115 said:


> All you guys waiting on this thing...
> 
> I just got an HR24, if you can't wait I suggest doing the same.


I have an HR24 coming to replace my slowww HR21. It'll go with my HR10, which still gets a lot of use.

Not expecting too much from the new TiVo, but if it just has a sane search method, and no SP limit, that might be enough to tip the scale for me.


----------



## stevel

Cudahy said:


> Do Beta testers usually allow roundabout info to come out about the specifics of the box?


If they do, they are in violation of their NDA and will pretty much get blacklisted by TiVo or DirecTV from future betas. It isn't worth it. I've done two previous DirecTV hardware betas and things were kept very quiet until the official time. Beta testers are not even allowed to hint that they are beta testers, and after the public release, are not supposed to talk about anything that happened during the beta.


----------



## Adam1115

Syzygy said:


> I have an HR24 coming to replace my slowww HR21. It'll go with my HR10, which still gets a lot of use.
> 
> Not expecting too much from the new TiVo, but if it just has a sane search method, and no SP limit, that might be enough to tip the scale for me.


Just got my new HR24, wow is it fast!! The whole whose DVR is pretty awesome too, way better than TiVo MRV...


----------



## Enrique

stevel said:


> If they do, they are in violation of their NDA and will pretty much get blacklisted by TiVo or DirecTV from future betas. It isn't worth it. I've done two previous DirecTV hardware betas and things were kept very quiet until the official time. Beta testers are not even allowed to hint that they are beta testers, and after the public release, are not supposed to talk about anything that happened during the beta.


And because the NDA is a contract you could be sued for violating it. Tivo even in the past threatened that it would pull the Field Test Betas as a whole if violations kept happening.

Now they don't happen as often as they did because (I think) in part because of that.


----------



## BOBCAT

Hi Steve,
I hate attachments. It is bad enough that the HR20 had the filters attached to the antenna connectors. They should have been built in.
I Don't have much space left in the AV rack. With today's technology the OTA tuner should be built in, not another box that has to take up more room in the rack.

I tried to sign up for the Beta testing, but never got a reply with the form to fill out.
I'm sure that just about everyone who reads this forum tried to sign up! 
Just hope that they did a good job on the beta boxes so they don't have to do any major redesigning to make it right. Don't need any more long delays in the release.


----------



## stevel

BOBCAT - if you are referring to the BBCs, they are not filters but rather frequency shifters. They are built in to newer models. The OTA tuner is separate because relatively few DirecTV customers also use OTA. It's a slim box and performs much better than the built-in tuner of the HR20 and earlier models.

I have had my profile up to date on TiVo's Field Trials site for years, but never heard a peep. So be it.


----------



## seattlewendell

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/25/tivo-banking-on-the-software-business-delays-directv-hd-unit-to/



-Wendell


----------



## plazman30

seattlewendell said:


> http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/25/tivo-banking-on-the-software-business-delays-directv-hd-unit-to/
> 
> 
> 
> -Wendell


Well, that's pretty much it for me. Time to move off of DirectTV and onto FIOS. Off to tivo.com to buy a refurb....

I switched from Comcast to DirectTV simply for the Tivo, and when I went high def, they yanked the rug out from under me when it came to high def and Tivo. Curse you Rupert Murdoch!


----------



## StanSimmons

Today's email from fieldtrials.tivo.com:



> Thanks for your interest in beta testing. However, we are not currently recruiting for DirecTV TiVo testers at this time. Please keep your beta profile updated and we'll contact you if an opportunity arises.


----------



## Cudahy

Are they "not currently recruiting" because they're not ready or because they have already got all the testers they need for the current test?
A beta tester could easily tell a friend to tell a friend the tester doesn't have contact with what the new box contains.


----------



## stevel

They apparently have all the testers they need. But for the beta tester to tell "a friend" anything would be a violation of the NDA.


----------



## ClubrhythmEnt

The new DirecTivo better support the TiVo Slide Remote because I FRICKIN' WANT IT!!!! IT'S AWESOME! Why has this taken so long? I thought SOFTWARE was Tivo's core competency... 

Seriously, the DTV remote is crap. Besides the layout the "On" button on one of my remotes has to be pressed really hard and on the other one the FF no longer works. On the other hand the peanut from my HR10-250 is going strong.

http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/whatsnew/tivo-slide-remote/?WT.mc_id=slide


----------



## stevel

I haven't used single-device remotes in years. Harmony One rules.


----------



## Nick Satullo

ClubrhythmEnt said:


> The new DirecTivo better support the TiVo Slide Remote because I FRICKIN' WANT IT!!!! IT'S AWESOME! Why has this taken so long? I thought SOFTWARE was Tivo's core competency...
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/whatsnew/tivo-slide-remote/?WT.mc_id=slide


I don't think anyone believes that TiVo, or DirecTV for that matter, lacks the sophistication to pull this off. The delays speak more logically to a business reason, probably a pie that won't get split in a manner to induce cooperation between them, and it seems a lot more likely that it's just not worth either side's while to give in to what the other demands. Stalemate.

Assuming that's the case, it seems more likely that it will never happen. While I love TiVo (5 lifetime HD units, 3 of them Series 3), I truly hate cable cards, and I hate Time-Warner. The DirecTV DVR is good enough, and I'm switching.

Thanks,

Nick


----------



## CuriousMark

Nick Satullo said:


> Assuming that's the case, it seems more likely that it will never happen. While I love TiVo (5 lifetime HD units, 3 of them Series 3), I truly hate cable cards, and I hate Time-Warner. The DirecTV DVR is good enough, and I'm switching.


Given that the device is reported to be in beta test, betting it will never happen doesn't make any kind of logical sense.

I got whole home DVR service to tide myself over until the TiVo is available and compared with my series 2 TiVo it is in many ways a step backward. I thought it would be good enough, but at the moment it is failing the WAF test. I am finding issues I did not expect. Basically it is the best darned High Definition Series 1 with MRV I have ever seen, but I got rid of my S1 over 5 years ago. If you watch a lot of live TV, don't use any TiVo networking related features, and are willing to go to other devices for things it doesn't handle, you will be OK.


----------



## sjberra

CuriousMark said:


> Given that the device is reported to be in beta test, betting it will never happen doesn't make any kind of logical sense.
> 
> I got whole home DVR service to tide myself over until the TiVo is available and compared with my series 2 TiVo it is in many ways a step backward. I thought it would be good enough, but at the moment it is failing the WAF test. I am finding issues I did not expect. Basically it is the best darned High Definition Series 1 with MRV I have ever seen, but I got rid of my S1 over 5 years ago. If you watch a lot of live TV, don't use any TiVo networking related features, and are willing to go to other devices for things it doesn't handle, you will be OK.


actually I believe the Direct tv HDPCTV was in beta test and it was canceled


----------



## innocentfreak

sjberra said:


> actually I believe the Direct tv HDPCTV was in beta test and it was canceled


If you are talking about their tuner card for Media Center, it was but it was canceled due to Directv getting pissed at Microsoft, iirc. Directv wanted it launched during Vista while Windows 7 was nearing beta and there were things implemented in 7 that would have had to be added to Vista for full support. Since Microsoft decided to push it off till 7 Directv canceled it. 
I may be slightly off on the details, but I know I have read this in multiple places.


----------



## sjberra

innocentfreak said:


> If you are talking about their tuner card for Media Center, it was but it was canceled due to Directv getting pissed at Microsoft, iirc. Directv wanted it launched during Vista while Windows 7 was nearing beta and there were things implemented in 7 that would have had to be added to Vista for full support. Since Microsoft decided to push it off till 7 Directv canceled it.
> I may be slightly off on the details, but I know I have read this in multiple places.


just shows that directv can make numerous stupid decisions just like every other company in the world. Was following it closels and was plannning on a commercial bulk purchase for a business environment. Was dispaapointed when they stuck their head up theri nether regions and canceled it


----------



## jbaron76

Syzygy said:


> I have an HR24 coming to replace my slowww HR21. It'll go with my HR10, which still gets a lot of use.
> 
> Not expecting too much from the new TiVo, but if it just has a sane search method, and no SP limit, that might be enough to tip the scale for me.


Is DirecTV replacing your unit with an HR24? If so, how did you convince them to guarantee you an HR24? I also asked DirecTV about this and they said that the replacement I get won't necessarily be an HR24. I currently have an HR22 that is so slow it is almost useless.


----------



## Adam1115

jbaron76 said:


> Is DirecTV replacing your unit with an HR24? If so, how did you convince them to guarantee you an HR24? I also asked DirecTV about this and they said that the replacement I get won't necessarily be an HR24. I currently have an HR22 that is so slow it is almost useless.


Can't you just add a new room, then turn around and cancel the HR23 room and send it back? Yes, it's $199, obviously they can't replace the old dvrs for free...


----------



## Syzygy

jbaron76 said:


> Is DirecTV replacing your unit with an HR24? If so, how did you convince them to guarantee you an HR24? I also asked DirecTV about this and they said that the replacement I get won't necessarily be an HR24. I currently have an HR22 that is so slow it is almost useless.


The CSR in Customer Retention thought she could guarantee me an HR24, but the warehouse ended up shipping an HR22 to me. The cost to me was simply renewing my 2-year commitment.

I returned the HR22 and, after they had received it, got Customer Retention to try again, this time with a truck roll. The tech did in fact bring an HR24 (China) and installed it. (But even though the CSR had asked me if I wanted to give any message to the installer, and I did so, no information was passed on to the installer. I understand this is the rule.)

BTW, the tech told me he gets just $17 for a service call, and has to provide his own transportation, insurance and gas.


----------



## Gasturbine

Adam1115 said:


> I just got an HR24, if you can't wait I suggest doing the same.


Whats the difference between the 23 and 24? Anybody have any screen shots, or is the GUI the same, but with faster hardware?


----------



## Adam1115

Gasturbine said:


> Whats the difference between the 23 and 24? Anybody have any screen shots, or is the GUI the same, but with faster hardware?


The GUI is the same, it's way faster.


----------



## Syzygy

Gasturbine said:


> Whats the difference between the 23 and 24?


Faster, and needs BBCs with older dishes/setups.

(BBC = broadband converter)


----------



## vurbano

Nick Satullo said:


> I don't think anyone believes that TiVo, or DirecTV for that matter, lacks the sophistication to pull this off. The delays speak more logically to a business reason, probably a pie that won't get split in a manner to induce cooperation between them, and it seems a lot more likely that it's just not worth either side's while to give in to what the other demands. Stalemate.
> 
> Assuming that's the case, it seems more likely that it will never happen. While I love TiVo (5 lifetime HD units, 3 of them Series 3), I truly hate cable cards, and I hate Time-Warner. The DirecTV DVR is good enough, and I'm switching.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Nick


And you think that the D* DVR has no "card"??? As for speed be sure you get the HR24 and god bless you. ive had their other models and they are SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWW. of course I am spoiled now with all of my FIOS channels in the clear for backing up to PC. Something you will NEVER see with D* or E*.


----------



## jmace57

Well, I figure that now that I have given up on the DirecTiVo EVER happening, and basically retired my TiVos and gone to an HR25 with "whole home"...I figure that now that I have a 2 year committment, they will go ahead and release it. So, you're welcome!

I am generally OK with the HR24...it seems to have most of the functionality...and some slightly better, but the interface is really clunky to me. In 3 weeks of ownership, I have had to re-boot it 3 times though. 

Jim


----------



## Kablemodem

I am happy with the HR24. What I miss most is the TiVo guide. It was so easy to see what was coming up next, especially when browsing the movie channels to see what I want to record.

I also don't like the remote. The 30 second slip button is so close to the power button.

I love the Whole Home DVR, although it lacks the TiVo to Go and TiVo to Go Back functionality.


----------



## farmdwg

Try the end of 2011 at the earliest. DirecTV has relayed this to me via Twitter. Incredible.


----------



## joed32

Kablemodem said:


> I am happy with the HR24. What I miss most is the TiVo guide. It was so easy to see what was coming up next, especially when browsing the movie channels to see what I want to record.
> 
> I also don't like the remote. The 30 second slip button is so close to the power button.
> 
> I love the Whole Home DVR, although it lacks the TiVo to Go and TiVo to Go Back functionality.


I'm with you, but have you tried the feature where when you are in the guide you can move the cursor all the way to the left and highlight the channel name. Then you hit info and you will get a "Tivo" list type guide for that channel? It's not the same but it's similar.


----------

