# The January Mini



## trip1eX

Let the speculation begin!

New Roamio-style RF remote is a lock right?

possibly wifi.

PRicepoint? Stays at $150? Or goes back up to say $175 or higher?


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## tarheelblue32

I agree the RF Roamio remote is a given. I could see them push the price up to $175-$200, at least for the first 6 months or so after it is introduced. I don't think they will put wi-fi in it. They seem adamant that you need a wired connection, and wi-fi is a headache they just don't want to deal with.


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## kherr

Watch out how you speculate, there are those that will take it as the gospel truth and will *****, moan, cry, feel betrayed and take a sledge to their Tivos when there is a different outcome. It is already happening over on the Premiere forum because Tivo didn't deliver with what was speculated about with the Prime/Vudu apps not showing up. Just a word of CAUTION ............


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## ncted

kherr said:


> Watch out how you speculate, there are those that will take it as the gospel truth and will *****, moan, cry, feel betrayed and take a sledge to their Tivos when there is a different outcome. It is already happening over on the Premiere forum because Tivo didn't deliver with what was speculated about with the Prime/Vudu apps not showing up. Just a word of CAUTION ............


In that case, I prophesy that the new Mini will work with the THR22.


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## tatergator1

kherr said:


> Watch out how you speculate, there are those that will take it as the gospel truth and will *****, moan, cry, feel betrayed and take a sledge to their Tivos when there is a different outcome. It is already happening over on the Premiere forum because Tivo didn't deliver with what was speculated about with the Prime/Vudu apps not showing up. Just a word of CAUTION ............


This. The train wreck in the Prime/Vudu Premiere thread has gotten way out of hand.

Oh well, here goes: RF remote, including adding a button to the box for the remote finder function. Although with a Mini, that function may be pointless since the small form factor is often utilized to hide it, generally in a hard to reach spot.

Honestly, I'm having a tough time coming up with anything else. It's a pretty compact and complete device as is. With the push to sell old inventory, I don't foresee much demand for a revamped Mini, at least initially. The big discounts on the current model have pulled a lot of demand forward.


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## trip1eX

tarheelblue32 said:


> I agree the RF Roamio remote is a given. I could see them push the price up to $175-$200, at least for the first 6 months or so after it is introduced. I don't think they will put wi-fi in it. They seem adamant that you need a wired connection, and wi-fi is a headache they just don't want to deal with.


Yeah I wouldn't think wifi either.....except they do have AC now and the satellite guys have some sort of wireless extenders.

Plus they are wirelessly streaming to iPads and iPhones etc. Who's to say they don't allow that "type" of wireless streaming to a Tivo Mini?


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## ncted

trip1eX said:


> Yeah I wouldn't think wifi either.....except they do have AC now and the satellite guys have some sort of wireless extenders.
> 
> Plus they are wirelessly streaming to iPads and iPhones etc. Who's to say they don't allow that "type" of wireless streaming to a Tivo Mini?


The wireless Joeys and Genie Minis are a bit PITA for Dish/DirecTV support from what I hear. Give me an actual wire any day.


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## Diana Collins

I would expect a new Mini to get smaller. There is no reason the Mini couldn't be half the size it is today - biggest limiting factor is fitting HDMI, Ethernet, power, USB and analog out jacks on the edge of the circuit board. If they put the RF remote on board, they might drop the USB port. Oh, and of course, the system info screen will probably list it as a Series 5 device.


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## Dan203

MoCa bridging would be nice.


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## tatergator1

Dan203 said:


> MoCa bridging would be nice.


Good point, that is one of the few short-comings of the Mini and would be a nice added benefit


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## scottfll954

I would assume if its a new design they would not offer lifetime

for me thats a big NO NO... form factor does not trump Lifetime


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## tarheelblue32

scottfll954 said:


> I would assume if its a new design they would not offer lifetime
> 
> for me thats a big NO NO... form factor does not trump Lifetime


I don't think they will go back to service fees on the Mini. I expect that the "new" Mini retail price, whatever it turns out to be, will include lifetime service.


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## SugarBowl

Tighter Power plug ?


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## BigJimOutlaw

The FCC filing's artwork/photos suggests it's the same form factor with all the same inputs.

No tests suggested wifi streaming.

The Zigbee tech (802.15.4) is the same as the Roamio remote. Zigbee is low-range and low-speed (compared to wifi).

If there's a CPU upgrade, a logical pick is the BCM7428 (3000 dmips, moca 2.0) but I don't know if they'd bother. Could just be a cost-reduced job.


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## just4fn44

I would like to see a digital output for 5.1 audio.


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## Dan203

Yeah an optical or coaxial output would be nice. But I doubt it'll happen.


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## DigitalDawn

Diana Collins said:


> I would expect a new Mini to get smaller. There is no reason the Mini couldn't be half the size it is today - biggest limiting factor is fitting HDMI, Ethernet, power, USB and analog out jacks on the edge of the circuit board. If they put the RF remote on board, they might drop the USB port. Oh, and of course, the system info screen will probably list it as a Series 5 device.


I would love to see a smaller mini as well.


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## Diana Collins

If they were clever, they'd make the mini the same size and shape as a Roku, which would allow the use of the many "back of the TV" mounting options that are available for Rokus.

But, since it doesn't seem that they are changing the form factor, I would guess that the remote update and a few minor internal updates may be pretty much the extent of the changes. A faster CPU is always welcome, but the Mini doesn't seem to need one...even the Amazon app performs pretty well.


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## Dan203

I bet they change the case slightly to look more like the Roamio. The pictures they sent to the FCC don't mean the design wont change. Although I doubt it will be smaller. It'll likely be the same basic size as the current one so the current back of TV mount they sell will continue to work.


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## bradleys

I just can't think of anything significant I am "wanting" on the Mini at this point. RF remote with a back button to match the Roamio - that would be just about it.

Could it be smaller / shinier - I suppose, but that wouldn't really push a sale for me. And for the life of me, I cannot think of any other "home automation" integration that would make any sense.


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## lessd

bradleys said:


> I just can't think of anything significant I am "wanting" on the Mini at this point. RF remote with a back button to match the Roamio - that would be just about it.
> 
> Could it be smaller / shinier - I suppose, but that wouldn't really push a sale for me. And for the life of me, I cannot think of any other "home automation" integration that would make any sense.


Not that I would want this, but how about having a new Mini with direct streaming and make the interface like that of the Roku box, could operate without any compatible TiVo, but could stream any TiVo recorded shows from any Series 3 or higher TiVo within the home. With a 4 or more tuner TiVo on the network would also work like the Mini does now.


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## bradleys

Rumor is tivo is working on a Roku style / stream based interface - but that definately wouldn't be a replacement for the Mini! It would be fine as another access channel but would also bring all the stream based imitations that we have in the iOS / Android app.

Off the top of my head - No live TV.


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## trip1eX

The Mini could use a new wall wart. It's not ideal for plugging into an outlet behind the tv (mounted on a wall.) It should have a flat plug with power adapter part in the middle of the cord.


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## HarperVision

bradleys said:


> Rumor is tivo is working on a Roku style / stream based interface - but that definately wouldn't be a replacement for the Mini! It would be fine as another access channel but would also bring all the stream based imitations that we have in the iOS / Android app. Off the top of my head - No live TV.


It could easily be a replacement for the mini and also offer live tv, a la' the Simple.TV and Tablo.


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## Bigg

ncted said:


> The wireless Joeys and Genie Minis are a bit PITA for Dish/DirecTV support from what I hear. Give me an actual wire any day.


And they're doing 6-9mbps MPEG-4. TiVos on FIOS have to push around 19mbps on some channels... No way TiVo will do wireless on the Mini.



Dan203 said:


> I bet they change the case slightly to look more like the Roamio. The pictures they sent to the FCC don't mean the design wont change. Although I doubt it will be smaller. It'll likely be the same basic size as the current one so the current back of TV mount they sell will continue to work.


I really, really hope they make a less ugly case for the thing. It looks horrible! It's pretty sad when Comcast's little mini-X1s look better than the TiVo Mini. Ugly case or not though, I still love my Minis.



HarperVision said:


> It could easily be a replacement for the mini and also offer live tv, a la' the Simple.TV and Tablo.


The interface wouldn't be nearly as responsive. Serious button mashers would be sorely disappointed with the thing.


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## tarheelblue32

Bigg said:


> I really, really hope they make a less ugly case for the thing. It looks horrible! It's pretty sad when Comcast's little mini-X1s look better than the TiVo Mini. Ugly case or not though, I still love my Minis.


I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think the Mini looks pretty good.


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## Bigg

tarheelblue32 said:


> I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think the Mini looks pretty good.


True.


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## Random User 7

So I called TiVo tonight to activate my Mini and we got to talking about the lifetime expiring and I said probably a replacement for the Mini in January. He responded no, just the deal ending. He went on to say only thing new was the Mega. Truth? who knows but I thought I would share.


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## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> And they're doing 6-9mbps MPEG-4. TiVos on FIOS have to push around 19mbps on some channels... No way TiVo will do wireless on the Mini.
> 
> .............


It does work perfectly fine over wireless right now. Whether my Mini is on a wireless bridge or I'm using wireless from a Roamio Basic. It is perfectly fine. But i also have a properly setup WIFi network. And the vast majority people do not. So from a support point of view, wireless would be a PITA since most people only have one AP to cover their entire house. Which is not the way to properly setup a WiFi network.


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## tarheelblue32

Random User 7 said:


> So I called TiVo tonight to activate my Mini and we got to talking about the lifetime expiring and I said probably a replacement for the Mini in January. He responded no, just the deal ending. He went on to say only thing new was the Mega. Truth? who knows but I thought I would share.


Based on TiVo's filings with the FCC, we know there is a new Mini coming. Whether or not it is coming in January and what specific features it will have are uncertain, but it is coming.


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## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> It does work perfectly fine over wireless right now. Whether my Mini is on a wireless bridge or I'm using wireless from a Roamio Basic. It is perfectly fine. But i also have a properly setup WIFi network. And the vast majority people do not. So from a support point of view, wireless would be a PITA since most people only have one AP to cover their entire house. Which is not the way to properly setup a WiFi network.


Right. It's entirely possible to probably run 5 of them over a good wifi link. However, most wifi links are terrible and can't support one reliably.

One AP is fine for a smaller house or apartment. For larger houses, you do need more than one, but there aren't really any easy to set up systems out there that will do multiple APs with centralized management. I haven't played around with AP roaming by having multiple APs with the same SSID and password, although I've heard that can be buggy as well when you're just using a couple of routers or APs that can't talk to each other. Ideally, something like the Ubiquiti UnFi system would provide even coverage throughout a large house would provide uniform coverage, although I haven't heard and read great things about those APs either, and that requires quite a bit of CAT wiring. And if you had that much wiring available, wireless Minis wouldn't be a concern in the first place...


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## Random User 7

It's very simple. I have multiple all different names with the same SSID and passphrase. Not saying it is for everyone to figure out but it is very easy if you are capable of reading instructions.


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## aaronwt

Random User 7 said:


> It's very simple. I have multiple all different names with the same SSID and passphrase. Not saying it is for everyone to figure out but it is very easy if you are capable of reading instructions.


IS there any instructions to read? You just make each AP, 2.4 and 5Ghz, the same name and the same password. I've been doing this for many years with multiple APs. The devices connect to the strongest signal. Typically giving preference to 5Ghz.


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## Diana Collins

The trick with multiple APs is to make sure you have a solid signal everywhere. If you have an area where all APs produce only a weak signal a device may keep hunting for a better signal, bouncing from one AP to the next. That can be worse than having only one weak signal.


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## Bigg

Random User 7 said:


> It's very simple. I have multiple all different names with the same SSID and passphrase. Not saying it is for everyone to figure out but it is very easy if you are capable of reading instructions.


Right. That isn't rocket science. The question is how well AP roaming actually works in practice. And how similar do the routers have to be? Could an N900 and an N600 router be set up this way reliably? AC and N900?


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## Random User 7

aaronwt said:


> IS there any instructions to read? You just make each AP, 2.4 and 5Ghz, the same name and the same password. I've been doing this for many years with multiple APs. The devices connect to the strongest signal. Typically giving preference to 5Ghz.


That's it, but to some it is intimidating. I deal with these thoe of users all the time.


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## Random User 7

Bigg said:


> Right. That isn't rocket science. The question is how well AP roaming actually works in practice. And how similar do the routers have to be? Could an N900 and an N600 router be set up this way reliably? AC and N900?


I have different routers running without issues. One is doing the routing the rest are just acting as APs.


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## Bigg

Random User 7 said:


> I have different routers running without issues. One is doing the routing the rest are just acting as APs.


All on the same SSID and roaming works? My parents have a dual-AP setup, but it uses three different SSIDs (one for G, one for N, one for N5).


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## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> All on the same SSID and roaming works? My parents have a dual-AP setup, but it uses three different SSIDs (one for G, one for N, one for N5).


You should be able to have all of them the same. I know with my APs I can setup multiple SSIDs for each one if I want. I have a router with 2.4 and 5Ghz, and two APs also with 2.4 and 5Ghz. They all have the same SSIDs. Even when I only had wireless G I was doing this with no issues. A roaming device like my laptop or tablet will automatically switch to another AP.


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## Random User 7

Bigg said:


> All on the same SSID and roaming works? My parents have a dual-AP setup, but it uses three different SSIDs (one for G, one for N, one for N5).





aaronwt said:


> You should be able to have all of them the same. I know with my APs I can setup multiple SSIDs for each one if I want. I have a router with 2.4 and 5Ghz, and two APs also with 2.4 and 5Ghz. They all have the same SSIDs. Even when I only had wireless G I was doing this with no issues. A roaming device like my laptop or tablet will automatically switch to another AP.


I have a similar setup to aaronwt and it is working without issues.


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## Diana Collins

Having all the SSIDs the same (across different 802.11 types) will work, but most clients will almost always attach to the 2.4Ghz band by default. Unless you are very close to the router, the 2.4Ghz signal will always be stronger. Some clients will prefer 5Ghz (rare) and others will reattach to the last used band (less rare), but most will go for whatever signal is stronger.


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## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> You should be able to have all of them the same. I know with my APs I can setup multiple SSIDs for each one if I want. I have a router with 2.4 and 5Ghz, and two APs also with 2.4 and 5Ghz. They all have the same SSIDs. Even when I only had wireless G I was doing this with no issues. A roaming device like my laptop or tablet will automatically switch to another AP.





Random User 7 said:


> I have a similar setup to aaronwt and it is working without issues.


Good to know. I might set that up in a few months at my parents' house, as they have the classic first-world problem of "my house so big, my wifi don't work". They have a WRT54Gv1 of 2004 vintage with 7dbi antennas running Tomato with radio output at 251mw that covers the whole house, along with a very strategically placed WNDR3700 two floors above acting as an AP that pretty much covers the whole thing as well. They also have an SB5100 of 2003 vintage. It'll be time for an upgrade next summer. The WRT54Gv1 seems to be limited to about 8mbps in most parts of the house, but the N900 router or hardwired gigabit network is capable of about 27/6mbps to the internet (25/5mbps Comcast). When they upgrade to a D3 modem, that will go up to about 57/11mbps.



Diana Collins said:


> Having all the SSIDs the same (across different 802.11 types) will work, but most clients will almost always attach to the 2.4Ghz band by default. Unless you are very close to the router, the 2.4Ghz signal will always be stronger. Some clients will prefer 5Ghz (rare) and others will reattach to the last used band (less rare), but most will go for whatever signal is stronger.


Well it would be the same way a dual-band router is. You'd have (SSID being your actual SSID) SSID and SSID5, with 5ghz capable devices only knowing SSID5. But the point is that you might have two or three routers (all but one configured as APs) that all have the same pair of SSID and SSID5.


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## Diana Collins

Bigg said:


> ...Well it would be the same way a dual-band router is. You'd have (SSID being your actual SSID) SSID and SSID5, with 5ghz capable devices only knowing SSID5. But the point is that you might have two or three routers (all but one configured as APs) that all have the same pair of SSID and SSID5.


Sure, that is the way our router and AP are set up. There were two different discussions about SSIDs. The new Verizon Quantum Gateway router, for example, defaults to the same SSID for 2.4GHz and 5GHz. That was the sort of configuration I was referring to. Of course, all your 2.4GHz APs should share one SSID and all the 5GHz ones share another. Otherwise roaming won't work. My point was that if the 2.4GHz and 5GHz SSIDs are the same, most devices will attach to the 2.4GHz band because it will almost always be the stronger signal and your device only has one profile for that SSID.


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## Bigg

Diana Collins said:


> Sure, that is the way our router and AP are set up. There were two different discussions about SSIDs. The new Verizon Quantum Gateway router, for example, defaults to the same SSID for 2.4GHz and 5GHz. That was the sort of configuration I was referring to. Of course, all your 2.4GHz APs should share one SSID and all the 5GHz ones share another. Otherwise roaming won't work. My point was that if the 2.4GHz and 5GHz SSIDs are the same, most devices will attach to the 2.4GHz band because it will almost always be the stronger signal and your device only has one profile for that SSID.


Right. We were talking about multiple APs. It's implied that if they're dual-band, each will have the same set of two SSIDs and passwords.


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## Diana Collins

Bigg said:


> Right. We were talking about multiple APs. It's implied that if they're dual-band, each will have the same set of two SSIDs and passwords.


Not if you accept Verizon's default.


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## aaronwt

Diana Collins said:


> Sure, that is the way our router and AP are set up. There were two different discussions about SSIDs. The new Verizon Quantum Gateway router, for example, defaults to the same SSID for 2.4GHz and 5GHz. That was the sort of configuration I was referring to. Of course, all your 2.4GHz APs should share one SSID and all the 5GHz ones share another. Otherwise roaming won't work. My point was that if the 2.4GHz and 5GHz SSIDs are the same, most devices will attach to the 2.4GHz band because it will almost always be the stronger signal and your device only has one profile for that SSID.


Sure roaming will still work. I have devices that roam between APs and also between 2.4 and 5 Ghz. My main SSID is duplicated on all my APs and both 2.4 and 5Ghz. Ive been doing it this way for many years without issues.

Plus some devices choose 5Ghz over 2.4Ghz when they are both the same signal strength. I have my router setup as my APs are but my router is on a UPS that will supply up to 18 hours of runtime. So when my APs die, since their UPS has a lower runtime, all my devices will switch over to the wireless from my router to continue getting internet access.


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## NYHeel

I only have one AP, my Airport Extreme router in my basement. But it does a really good job of getting a good signal throughout my 2,200 square foot 2 story (not including the basement) house. Sure there are some spots on the second floor that don't have a super strong signal but I still get over 10 Mbps on my 25 Mbps Fios service when I run speed tests on my iphone. I've thought about adding an airport express as an AP as I have wired ethernet runs from my basement to my second floor but it just seems like a waste of money.


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## Bigg

Diana Collins said:


> Not if you accept Verizon's default.


Yeah, well if I end up moving to an area with FIOS, I have zero intention of using Verizon's crappy router. I'll wire Ethernet from the ONT and use an ASUS router.



NYHeel said:


> I only have one AP, my Airport Extreme router in my basement. But it does a really good job of getting a good signal throughout my 2,200 square foot 2 story (not including the basement) house. Sure there are some spots on the second floor that don't have a super strong signal but I still get over 10 Mbps on my 25 Mbps Fios service when I run speed tests on my iphone. I've thought about adding an airport express as an AP as I have wired ethernet runs from my basement to my second floor but it just seems like a waste of money.


Probably not a waste of money. Plus, FIOS plans are now 50/50 and 75/75, so if you can update your plan for a minimal cost, then you'll need that much more capacity on your LAN. Unless you're only using it for a mobile phone, and all your computers are hardwired, in which case you might not care...


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## NYHeel

Bigg said:


> Probably not a waste of money. Plus, FIOS plans are now 50/50 and 75/75, so if you can update your plan for a minimal cost, then you'll need that much more capacity on your LAN. Unless you're only using it for a mobile phone, and all your computers are hardwired, in which case you might not care...


I had the 50/50 internet when renewed back in June. Actually it was 50/25 then. When they set the upstream to the downstream they recreated the 25/25 option and I downgraded to 25/25 and saved $10 a month for almost 2 years. There's no noticeable difference to my family between 25 and 50 Mbps. Even if we have 3 people streaming at once it's fine.

Now it would cost me $20 a month if I wanted to upgrade my speed. I have absolutely no interest.

I actually have no laptops in my house anymore. I have a hard wired desktop and iPhones and iPads. I do have a work laptop but I generally just use it either plugged in or on the first floor which is still pretty close to the router.

By the way I just have AirPort Extreme with AC. Do you guys recommend giving the 5.0 Ghz band a different SSID?


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## Random User 7

I don't, all my SSIDs are the same except the guest of course


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## trip1eX

I found streaming WMC over wifi a bit flakey even with a supposed good wifi signal and close proximity.


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## Dan203

How did this thread turn into a discussion of Wifi? It's highly unlikely the new Mini will have built in wifi because no matter what spec they use, or which spectrum, they can't guarantee reliability. Some of you may be able to get it to work using a bridge but TiVo doesn't want the headache of trying to support it. Even the wifi built into the Roamio specifically says it's not to be used for streaming. It's only intended for use in a single Roamio home or to bridge the MoCa network to the internet. They will not help you if you try to use wifi for streaming and it doesn't work. Since the Mini is a streaming only device and requires a connection to the host DVR anyway to function they have no reason to include wifi in the Mini.


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## Diana Collins

I think, Dan, that this was the point that got it started on WiFi. You are absolutely correct...DirecTV is probably regretting trying to deploy wireless clients, even with their own hardware at both the client and at the AP. Getting the signal through multiple walls and/or floors across various construction materials, and still provide a steady data stream, has proven challenging. TiVo would have to be crazy to go down this route.


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## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> How did this thread turn into a discussion of Wifi? It's highly unlikely the new Mini will have built in wifi because no matter what spec they use, or which spectrum, they can't guarantee reliability. Some of you may be able to get it to work using a bridge but TiVo doesn't want the headache of trying to support it. Even the wifi built into the Roamio specifically says it's not to be used for streaming. It's only intended for use in a single Roamio home or to bridge the MoCa network to the internet. They will not help you if you try to use wifi for streaming and it doesn't work. Since the Mini is a streaming only device and requires a connection to the host DVR anyway to function they have no reason to include wifi in the Mini.


except they do wirelessly stream their recordings to mobile devices.....

But yeah I wouldn't bet on wifi.

At the same time lots of stuff has wifi that probably shouldn't. Never stopped alot of companies. And Tivo has had stuff like netflix years ago that never really properly worked. They could say they had it though.


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## Bigg

NYHeel said:


> I had the 50/50 internet when renewed back in June. Actually it was 50/25 then. When they set the upstream to the downstream they recreated the 25/25 option and I downgraded to 25/25 and saved $10 a month for almost 2 years. There's no noticeable difference to my family between 25 and 50 Mbps. Even if we have 3 people streaming at once it's fine.


Man, the difference between 25mbps and 50mbps is pretty big. I had Comcast at 25, it got upgraded to 50 and then to 105. The jump above 50 isn't as big, although if/when I move to a FIOS area, I'm getting 75/75, as it's only $10/mo more than 50/50, and it can come close to saturating a 100mbps Ethernet line, especially on the upload.



> By the way I just have AirPort Extreme with AC. Do you guys recommend giving the 5.0 Ghz band a different SSID?


Yes. And 5Ghz devices only have the 5ghz SSID remembered, although that does reduce the range a lot, since they can't fall back to 2.4.


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## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> except they do wirelessly stream their recordings to mobile devices.....
> 
> But yeah I wouldn't bet on wifi.
> 
> At the same time lots of stuff has wifi that probably shouldn't. Never stopped alot of companies. And Tivo has had stuff like netflix years ago that never really properly worked. They could say they had it though.


The the Stream requires a hard line connection between the Stream and the TiVo, only after it has been recoded to a maximum of 2.25Mbps does it go out over wifi. The Mini streams full bitrate MPEG-2 which averages 12-15Mbps.


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## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> The the Stream requires a hard line connection between the Stream and the TiVo, only after it has been recoded to a maximum of 2.25Mbps does it go out over wifi. The Mini streams full bitrate MPEG-2 which averages 12-15Mbps.


Yep. But why couldn't a new Mini be designed to accept the already present lower bit rate streaming of a Tivo Roamio if the customer insists on a wifi connection?

Good use case for the guy who wanted a Mini in his bathroom.


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## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> Yep. But why couldn't a new Mini be designed to accept the already present lower bit rate streaming of a Tivo Roamio if the customer insists on a wifi connection?
> 
> Good use case for the guy who wanted a Mini in his bathroom.


Because the Stream can't provide the same user experience. The Mini is intended to provide the same user experience as a real TiVo. Because of the way the Stream works that's not possible. The lag involved in recoding the stream makes it impossible to do proper FF/RW and would make channel surfing on live TV excruciating.

That being said there may be an option for that guy... There is a rumor that TiVo is working on apps for the Roku and FireTV. Those will likely have an experience more similar to the mobile app, and use the Stream, but they will work over wifi.


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## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> Because the Stream can't provide the same user experience. The Mini is intended to provide the same user experience as a real TiVo. Because of the way the Stream works that's not possible. The lag involved in recoding the stream makes it impossible to do proper FF/RW and would make channel surfing on live TV excruciating.


That's the price you pay for wifi. You want the optimal experience hook it up via MOCA or ethernet.

Don't forget the Mini does accept Netflix, Amazon Prime and Hulu streams. Those are necessarily 12-15 mbps streams.


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## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> Don't forget the Mini does accept Netflix, Amazon Prime and Hulu streams. Those are necessarily 12-15 mbps streams.


I believe the max bitrate for Netflix is 6Mbps. Not sure about the other two, but I assume they're similar. Technically a broadcast MPEG-2 stream could be 19.2Mbps, so the Mini would need to deal with that as well.


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## aaronwt

trip1eX said:


> That's the price you pay for wifi. You want the optimal experience hook it up via MOCA or ethernet.
> 
> Don't forget the Mini does accept Netflix, Amazon Prime and Hulu streams. Those are necessarily 12-15 mbps streams.


Or you make sure you have a robust, properly setup wifi network. Whether I use wireless, MoCA, or Ethernet with my Minis, the user experience is identical.

A low bitrate, 19.2Mb/s stream is no issue for a properly setup wireless N network.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Diana Collins said:


> I think, Dan, that this was the point that got it started on WiFi. You are absolutely correct...DirecTV is probably regretting trying to deploy wireless clients, even with their own hardware at both the client and at the AP. Getting the signal through multiple walls and/or floors across various construction materials, and still provide a steady data stream, has proven challenging. TiVo would have to be crazy to go down this route.


AT&T doesn't seem to have a problem with it since they tout it so highly in ads for U-Verse, but of course they're only streaming around 6mbps per stream. I wouldn't think D* would be much higher.

Minis are a whole different can of worms given crappy mpeg2 encodings.


----------



## slowbiscuit

aaronwt said:


> Or you make sure you have a robust, properly setup wifi network. Whether I use wireless, MoCA, or Ethernet with my Minis, the user experience is identical.
> 
> A low bitrate, 19.2Mb/s stream is no issue for a properly setup wireless N network.


This totally depends on how much interference you have in your area. You can't make a blanket statement like that regardless of your personal success.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> Or you make sure you have a robust, properly setup wifi network. Whether I use wireless, MoCA, or Ethernet with my Minis, the user experience is identical.
> 
> A low bitrate, 19.2Mb/s stream is no issue for a properly setup wireless N network.


That's a true statement. But good luck getting even a small fraction of typical wireless networks out there today to handle that.


----------



## Davisadm

DigitalDawn said:


> I would love to see a smaller mini as well.


Smaller Mini won't happen in January, but...................


----------



## HarperVision

Davisadm said:


> Smaller Mini won't happen in January, but...................


But what? Roku app?


----------



## brentil

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The FCC filing's artwork/photos suggests it's the same form factor with all the same inputs.
> 
> No tests suggested wifi streaming.
> 
> The Zigbee tech (802.15.4) is the same as the Roamio remote. Zigbee is low-range and low-speed (compared to wifi).
> 
> If there's a CPU upgrade, a logical pick is the BCM7428 (3000 dmips, moca 2.0) but I don't know if they'd bother. Could just be a cost-reduced job.


Do you have links to the FCC filing or high res images of the FCC docs? I've only seen the small res ones and not the full publication.


----------



## Random User 7

http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/08/new-tivo-mini-tgn-tcda93000/


----------



## DigitalDawn

Davisadm said:


> Smaller Mini won't happen in January, but...................


You love torturing me, don't you........


----------



## aaronwt

slowbiscuit said:


> This totally depends on how much interference you have in your area. You can't make a blanket statement like that regardless of your personal success.


That's personal success and multiple WiFi networks setup for others. I've never had a problem, but I've also never set one up in a city with hundreds of condos in a building. Only with houses or condos/apartments(with only dozens of units) where you might have a dozen or two networks at most to deal with. Not like in the city where there might be many, many dozens.


----------



## tatergator1

Davisadm said:


> Smaller Mini won't happen in January, but...................





DigitalDawn said:


> You love torturing me, don't you........


Damn TiVo dealers with insider info


----------



## HarperVision

Lemme guess, it'll be a normal sized mini but it'll have an RF remote and sport an extra tuner, a la' the Super Joey?


----------



## Diana Collins

HarperVision said:


> Lemme guess, it'll be a normal sized mini but it'll have an RF remote and sport an extra tuner, a la' the Super Joey?


Not likely...such a Mini would need a Cablecard, which defeats the purpose of the Mini. Why not just get another Roamio Basic in that case?


----------



## tarheelblue32

Diana Collins said:


> Not likely...such a Mini would need a Cablecard, which defeats the purpose of the Mini. Why not just get another Roamio Basic in that case?


It depends on how much they charge for it I guess. If the non-tuner Mini is $150 and a "Super" Mini with its own tuner/CableCard slot is $250, then it might be worth it to some people. Though it would probably be a niche product for what is already kind of a niche product, and would probably just confuse a lot of people, so I doubt it would be worth it for TiVo to make it just for retail. But I could see the MSOs possibly wanting a Mini with its own tuner, and if they ever did make one for their MSO partners, then they might as well make a retail version too.


----------



## trip1eX

aaronwt said:


> Or you make sure you have a robust, properly setup wifi network. Whether I use wireless, MoCA, or Ethernet with my Minis, the user experience is identical.
> 
> A low bitrate, 19.2Mb/s stream is no issue for a properly setup wireless N network.


Not for me. AT least I didn't find wMC as nice over wifi as ethernet. The responsiveness was lower and pixelization was a regular occurrence.

It doesn't help when there are other devices in your home also using the wifi.

Then heaven forbid you have multiple streams going on.

IT's in wifi's nature to be flakey.


----------



## HarperVision

Diana Collins said:


> Not likely...such a Mini would need a Cablecard, which defeats the purpose of the Mini. Why not just get another Roamio Basic in that case?


I was thinking they could have it leech off of the host TiiVo's cablecard somehow, using its MoCa/Ethernet connection to pass the authorization data.

I know, I'm dreaming again, but it's fun!


----------



## tarheelblue32

HarperVision said:


> I was thinking they could have it leech off of the host TiiVo's cablecard somehow, using its MoCa/Ethernet connection to pass the authorization data.
> 
> I know, I'm dreaming again, but it's fun!


Even if that were technically possible to do, I doubt CableLabs would certify a CableCard device that could share channel authorization and decryption with other devices in that manner.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

tarheelblue32 said:


> But I could see the MSOs possibly wanting a Mini with its own tuner, and if they ever did make one for their MSO partners, then they might as well make a retail version too.


It's called the Tivo Preview.


----------



## Diana Collins

tarheelblue32 said:


> Even if that were technically possible to do, I doubt CableLabs would certify a CableCard device that could share channel authorization and decryption with other devices in that manner.


And you would still be limited to 6 simultaneous tuners anyway (the max an M card will handle) so again, what's the point?


----------



## tarheelblue32

Diana Collins said:


> And you would still be limited to 6 simultaneous tuners anyway (the max an M card will handle) so again, what's the point?


Supposedly an 8-tuner M-card exists, but it would be virtually impossible to get one from a cable company.


----------



## nooneuknow

tarheelblue32 said:


> Supposedly an 8-tuner M-card exists, but it would be virtually impossible to get one from a cable company.


That would be the Cisco PKM908.

http://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/products/collateral/video/remote-controls-keyboards/ol_28628_01.pdf


----------



## tarheelblue32

nooneuknow said:


> That would be the Cisco PKM908.
> 
> http://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/products/collateral/video/remote-controls-keyboards/ol_28628_01.pdf


That would be the one. I wonder how many of these cards Cisco has actually produced and how you would go about trying to get one from your cable company. I'm guessing that unless you are friends with the right people, it would be impossible to get one. And of course if you live in a Motorola area, you would be out of luck, as I don't think they have ever made an 8-tuner card.


----------



## lessd

tarheelblue32 said:


> That would be the one. I wonder how many of these cards Cisco has actually produced and how you would go about trying to get one from your cable company. I'm guessing that unless you are friends with the right people, it would be impossible to get one.


For TiVo use what good would it do?, as TiVo (as of now) could use only 6 of the 8 streams ??


----------



## tarheelblue32

lessd said:


> For TiVo use what good would it do?, as TiVo (as of now) could use only 6 of the 8 streams ??


I think this is more of a theoretical discussion. From a practical standpoint, there is no real use for an 8-stream card unless/until TiVo makes a DVR with 8 tuners. I guess that is just something to look forward to in the Series 6 TiVo. They can call it the "TiVo RoamiOcho".


----------



## nooneuknow

tarheelblue32 said:


> That would be the one. I wonder how many of these cards Cisco has actually produced and how you would go about trying to get one from your cable company. I'm guessing that unless you are friends with the right people, it would be impossible to get one. And of course if you live in a Motorola area, you would be out of luck, as I don't think they have ever made an 8-tuner card.


The latest firmware for my Cisco STA1520 tuning adapters bumped the tuner support level to 8 as well.

As I said in some other thread, it would seem some player in the market must be planning on offering an 8 tuner product. I doubt the foundations, and all the costs involved with making them, are for "just in case someday...".

Look at how long it took for some 6 tuner TiVo users to get use of all 6, with some still waiting for their provider to allow/enable it. Providers are only required to support as many tuners as their highest tuner count leased STB/DVR, leaving some markets limited for TiVo users with higher tuner counts, and no recourse. This is with cards and TAs limited by the firmware, but not the hardware. I'm leaving infrastructure speculation out of this.

This leads me to believe it must be a major MSO who is looking to offer 8 tuner support (and must feel sure it will happen). If it were TiVo, or any other retail device (alone), they'd have to wait for the MSOs to offer 8 tuner devices, to expect their retail products to have any hope of using all tuners.

While there is no denying that hardware capable of 8 tuners is already out there, anything else about what its existence may mean is speculative at this time (unless I missed an announcement, citing facts).

The existence of 8 stream M-cards, plus the revelation that the existing Cisco TA hardware can support them, kind of eases worries that cablecards are "going away" as some worry about (legitimately so). It's hard to fathom that Cisco would invest further in something many see as "doomed", by moving past fabrication and certification, which doesn't come cheap.

It's hard to tell if this is normal progression, or a last-ditch attempt to make cablecards "attractive", or to prove to the power that be, that it still has room to grow, thus proving it is not "dying", in hopes of preventing it's demise (by legislation). It's harder to declare a technology that is still growing in capabilities, as obsolete...

It gives me a small amount of hope that I need not stockpile extra cablecards (and continue paying for them every month), in order to prevent obsoletion of my TiVos, should Comcast succeed in creating a replacement technology, which has the potential to allow all MSOs to stop issuing cablecards, should they adopt the replacement.

This is pretty far OT for the thread. So, it's likely best to move on from the subject, and get back on topic.


----------



## Bigg

tarheelblue32 said:


> I think this is more of a theoretical discussion. From a practical standpoint, there is no real use for an 8-stream card unless/until TiVo makes a DVR with 8 tuners. I guess that is just something to look forward to in the Series 6 TiVo. They can call it the "TiVo RoamiOcho".


The 8-tuner TiVo is rather unlikely. The Mini with a tuner. Not gonna happen, unless they introduce a new version of the Preview for their MSO partners, where the CableCard requirement isn't an issue.


----------



## brentil

The idea of a tuner or CC on this device seems unrealistic for the size and what it's marketed as.

If you go read the FCC documents linked it shows the main reason for request is validation of the new antenna system to support Zigbee. It also lists all of the ports on the new TGN-TCDA93000 (see attached image).

I'm not completely familiar with what goes into FCC requests so I don't know if say a new CPU or non-radio chips would show up in these requests. Also according to the filing several documents are listed as short term (180 days) "classified" and some are permanent "classified" status.


----------



## HarperVision

brentil said:


> The idea of a tuner or CC on this device seems unrealistic for the size and what it's marketed as. If you go read the FCC documents linked it shows the main reason for request is validation of the new antenna system to support Zigbee. It also lists all of the ports on the new TGN-TCDA93000 (see attached image). I'm not completely familiar with what goes into FCC requests so I don't know if say a new CPU or non-radio chips would show up in these requests. Also according to the filing several documents are listed as short term (180 days) "classified" and some are permanent "classified" status.


Interesting. What's a "Helium DVR"? Maybe it's a mini that connects to the Helium DVR, i.e., lighter than air, as in a cloud DVR? So maybe TiVo is releasing and announcing the in the cloud Helium DVR which the new mini will connect with through the interwebs? Haha, yeah I know. Still dreaming, but it's fun!


----------



## Balzer

Well crap, there's a new Mini coming? And I just bought one last week... Hopefully the new Mini doesn't have something I want/need.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Balzer said:


> Well crap, there's a new Mini coming? And I just bought one last week... Hopefully the new Mini doesn't have something I want/need.


Probably just the RF remote. And for all we know, the price of the "new" Mini could jump back up to $250. An RF remote isn't worth $100+.


----------



## Bigg

I think they'll keep it at $150, as their whole big pitch now is "one monthly fee". Or as smart buyers who buy Lifetime would know, "no monthly fee".


----------



## Kingpcgeek

An hour ago I bought two more minis, taking my total to seven. Went to Best Buy, they matched the Sam's Club $114, plus I had $75 in Best Buy Rewards. $167 for two Minis, not bad considering I bought 4 at $250 a pop. 

Now I have a mini on every TV in the house.


----------



## Bigg

Kingpcgeek said:


> An hour ago I bought two more minis, taking my total to seven. Went to Best Buy, they matched the Sam's Club $114, plus I had $75 in Best Buy Rewards. $167 for two Minis, not bad considering I bought 4 at $250 a pop.
> 
> Now I have a mini on every TV in the house.


Nice! I love my 3 Mini's although they still will never be a full TiVo!


----------



## nooneuknow

I never saw the appeal, then saw all the issues with them not working when the TiVo Service was down, decided "no way!", was tempted by the pricing overlap deals, reviewed what they could do, assuming the issues were fixed, still set on if I'm going to spread TiVos around, they might as well have storage in them, and add tuners...

Not expecting this to change for the January Mini, but I'm here, following the subject...


----------



## chiguy50

nooneuknow said:


> *I never saw the appeal*, then saw all the issues with them not working when the TiVo Service was down, decided "no way!", was tempted by the pricing overlap deals, reviewed what they could do, assuming the issues were fixed, still set on if I'm going to spread TiVos around, they might as well have storage in them, and add tuners...
> 
> Not expecting this to change for the January Mini, but I'm here, following the subject...


I think the appeal for most of us is a simple matter of economics. If you don't need the extra tuners or storage space, a Mini is much more affordable (and practical) than a full-fledged DVR. This is especially true if your MSO charges you a sizable monthly fee for additional CableCARDs.

I had a Premiere Elite and a basic Premiere, all w/PLS. I purchased a Mini w/PLS in September for $82.60 (including tax) and resold the basic Premiere for $375. Besides being almost $300 in-pocket, I'm saving $90 p.a. in MSO fees ($9.95 p.m. for the CC less $2.50 COE credit).

So far I am completely satisfied with the Mini's performance. Granted I gave up two tuners and 320GB of storage, but I like the smaller form factor and there is no HDD to worry about flaking out.


----------



## aaronwt

Wow! $375 for the Premiere? I still have a lifetime Premiere that I need to get around to selling sometime. TiVo had transferred the $6.95 a month service from teh Premiere to a Roamio Basic and then gave me Lifetime for $99. It had been sitting there fo rmonths turned on wasting electrccity. I only unplugged it recently since I have no desir or reason to use it.


----------



## chiguy50

aaronwt said:


> Wow! $375 for the Premiere? I still have a lifetime Premiere that I need to get around to selling sometime. TiVo had transferred the $6.95 a month service from teh Premiere to a Roamio Basic and then gave me Lifetime for $99. It had been sitting there fo rmonths turned on wasting electrccity. I only unplugged it recently since I have no desir or reason to use it.


Yeah, I would have let it go for less, but it was in great condition, I threw in an extra remote that I didn't need, and I gave the buyer a lot of technical assistance pre- and post-sale so it was a pretty good deal for both of us.


----------



## DaveMN

Kingpcgeek said:


> Went to Best Buy, they matched the Sam's Club $114


I'm considering my first Mini. Does this Sam's Club deal include lifetime service, or do you have to get the $149 deal through TiVo to get the lifetime?


----------



## tarheelblue32

DaveMN said:


> I'm considering my first Mini. Does this Sam's Club deal include lifetime service, or do you have to get the $149 deal through TiVo to get the lifetime?


You can activate lifetime service on any Mini for free until at least January 6, so just buy the cheapest one you can find.


----------



## Bigg

chiguy50 said:


> I think the appeal for most of us is a simple matter of economics. If you don't need the extra tuners or storage space, a Mini is much more affordable (and practical) than a full-fledged DVR. This is especially true if your MSO charges you a sizable monthly fee for additional CableCARDs.


That's part of it. Not having to pay another $7/mo for a CableCard, plus probably $5/mo in electricity is nice. However, another attraction is having that single, unified experience on all TVs. It's nice to be able to turn on any TV and have a nearly identical experience. The only thing I don't like is having that single point of failure. I decided that when I upgrade to an upgraded Roamio Plus, I'll give my XL4 to my parents, and have unified system with 6 tuners for myself. I think 6 tuners and 4TB of disk space on one Roamio should be enough.


----------



## nooneuknow

Bigg said:


> That's part of it. Not having to pay another $7/mo for a CableCard, plus probably $5/mo in electricity is nice. However, another attraction is having that single, unified experience on all TVs. It's nice to be able to turn on any TV and have a nearly identical experience. The only thing I don't like is having that single point of failure. I decided that when I upgrade to an upgraded Roamio Plus, I'll give my XL4 to my parents, and have unified system with 6 tuners for myself. I think 6 tuners and 4TB of disk space on one Roamio should be enough.


Yeah, the fact that the new trend is one TiVo, and Minis everywhere, does create that single point of failure. Nearly anything at all, that goes wrong with the "hub" TiVo, can take away all your TiVo goodness, in one fell swoop.

Other than not having component output (for when HDMI doesn't play well), I'm quite happy with having 3 base Roamios, upgraded to 3TB each, for a total of 12 tuners, and 9TB. Two of them have made it to greater than 90% capacity, and one had a hard drive "failure"*. Recovering from that failure was fairly painless, using kmttg to move some SPs to the other two, and giving me some downtime, without losing my TiVo goodness, to investigate a rare, but possible, issue that can happen with TLER/ERC enabled drives, like the WD Red NAS, WD Purple, and any other brand drive with TLER/ERC.

* The drive did not fail, but the Time Limited Error Recovery function of the drive, and some ECC uncorrectable sectors were in a bad place to be on a TiVo drive. The drive had to be removed, read-scanned, zeroed, then scanned again. The sectors were recovered, rather than reallocated, after this. Months of torture-testing later, not a single issue with that drive, and no reallocations of any sectors, nor any more recorded incidents of ECC uncorrectables. The bonus side of the WD Red NAS is the extensive extra logging capabilities built-in, which can tell you exactly what happened, and at what POH points. I'm on-the-fence about the suitability of some drives for use in TiVos, but not convinced many will experience the same "perfect storm" of conditions that I did.


----------



## chiguy50

Bigg said:


> That's part of it. Not having to pay another $7/mo for a CableCard, plus probably $5/mo in electricity is nice. However, another attraction is having that single, unified experience on all TVs. It's nice to be able to turn on any TV and have a nearly identical experience. *The only thing I don't like is having that single point of failure. *I decided that when I upgrade to an upgraded Roamio Plus, I'll give my XL4 to my parents, and have unified system with 6 tuners for myself. I think 6 tuners and 4TB of disk space on one Roamio should be enough.


That's a good point, and one that caused me to hang on to my second Premiere longer than I might otherwise have done. But the price reduction from $250 to under $100 on the PLS'ed Mini finally pushed me over the edge.

Still, the deciding factor for me was Comcast's $10 "Additional Digital Outlet" fee, which just stuck in my craw. If they had only kept the previous billing structure which charged a nominal fee (around $2.00) for the additional CableCARD I never would have parted with my second Premiere.


----------



## Fran1r

Kingpcgeek said:


> An hour ago I bought two more minis, taking my total to seven. Went to Best Buy, they matched the Sam's Club $114, plus I had $75 in Best Buy Rewards. $167 for two Minis, not bad considering I bought 4 at $250 a pop.


Did they ask for a Sam's Club card? Thanks.


----------



## sangs

Fran1r said:


> Did they ask for a Sam's Club card? Thanks.


I just did this at a NJ Best Buy two days ago and they did not ask for a Sam's Club card. (It did take them about 10 minutes to confirm it was OK to use Sam's Club though.)


----------



## Bigg

nooneuknow said:


> Yeah, the fact that the new trend is one TiVo, and Minis everywhere, does create that single point of failure. Nearly anything at all, that goes wrong with the "hub" TiVo, can take away all your TiVo goodness, in one fell swoop.


Yeah, it's really the only downside to the otherwise fully centralized system. I suppose having a Lifetime S3 or Premiere hanging around doing OTA duties wouldn't be a bad idea so that you could throw the CableCard in it and have some cable functionality, albeit without the Minis, if the main Roamio had a serious problem that took it out of commission for a while. Although, in my case, I have a Comcast office on my way home from work, so worst come to worse, I could always grab a non-DVR HD box to keep the live sports flowing during a TiVo failure.



chiguy50 said:


> That's a good point, and one that caused me to hang on to my second Premiere longer than I might otherwise have done. But the price reduction from $250 to under $100 on the PLS'ed Mini finally pushed me over the edge.
> 
> Still, the deciding factor for me was Comcast's $10 "Additional Digital Outlet" fee, which just stuck in my craw. If they had only kept the previous billing structure which charged a nominal fee (around $2.00) for the additional CableCARD I never would have parted with my second Premiere.


Did you get rid of it, or just keep it as a backup? I had a CableCard in my TiVo and in an MCE machine for a short period of time, but I got rid of the MCE one, as I didn't want to pay them $7/mo for something that was rarely, if ever, used.


----------



## JayBird

Just ordered Mini #3 online from Sam's Club...


----------



## southerndoc

Curious what's changing. I just installed my 7th Mini today.


----------



## slowbiscuit

chiguy50 said:


> Still, the deciding factor for me was Comcast's $10 "Additional Digital Outlet" fee, which just stuck in my craw. If they had only kept the previous billing structure which charged a nominal fee (around $2.00) for the additional CableCARD I never would have parted with my second Premiere.


Exactly, a lot of folks here don't understand how most of us on Comcast get hosed for additional cards. Minis are a great way to tell Comcast to go stuff their fees.


----------



## chiguy50

Bigg said:


> Did you get rid of it, or just keep it as a backup? I had a CableCard in my TiVo and in an MCE machine for a short period of time, but I got rid of the MCE one, as I didn't want to pay them $7/mo for something that was rarely, if ever, used.


As I stated in post #95 above, I sold my Premiere for $375. The next day I returned the second CableCARD to Comcast's nearby office. I swore (to myself and to Comcast's regional VP for Customer Service) back in July 2012 that I would never pay that $10 charge when they substituted it for the $1.50 CC fee. And, in fact, I did not start actually paying it out-of-pocket (due to the comps I had negotiated) until September of this year whereupon I immediately got my Mini.

Ironically, I would have been willing to pay the same net amount without a whimper if Comcast had just been upfront about it by, let's say, charging $5.00 for each CC ($5 net p.m. after COE credits). It was their duplicity that got my dander up, and after that it became a matter of principal not to allow them to get away with their underhandedness. They wound up losing revenue, Tivo gained another sale, and I'm in-pocket (and increasing every month) as a result.


----------



## Bigg

chiguy50 said:


> As I stated in post #95 above, I sold my Premiere for $375. The next day I returned the second CableCARD to Comcast's nearby office. I swore (to myself and to Comcast's regional VP for Customer Service) back in July 2012 that I would never pay that $10 charge when they substituted it for the $1.50 CC fee. And, in fact, I did not start actually paying it out-of-pocket (due to the comps I had negotiated) until September of this year whereupon I immediately got my Mini.
> 
> Ironically, I would have been willing to pay the same net amount without a whimper if Comcast had just been upfront about it by, let's say, charging $5.00 for each CC ($5 net p.m. after COE credits). It was their duplicity that got my dander up, and after that it became a matter of principal not to allow them to get away with their underhandedness. They wound up losing revenue, Tivo gained another sale, and I'm in-pocket (and increasing every month) as a result.


Sounds like a good result for you! I pay a total of -$2.50/mo for equipment on Comcast, but they're lucky to have me as a customer. If DirecTV made an adapter/tuner for retail TiVos to work, I would have gone that way instead of Comcast.


----------



## poppagene

How about MoCa 2.0 to go with the new FiOS routers.


----------



## bradleys

The Roamio's do not have a MoCa 2.0 bridge and frankly the additional throughput isn't going to provide any improvements to the Mini.

I think it goes to the success of the Mini that the community is having such a hard time predicting or even requesting specific updates to the Mini. The only thing I would want is built in RF and a Roamio style remote.

The only thing that would bring them press is built in Wifi connectivity.

I am not sure what this home automation "stuff" is... Is it some mechanism to allow the mini to communicate with the Roamio wirelessly, or is it simply a way to turn the lights down. If it is really just "home automation" stuff, I frankly just don't see the value. And frankly, I do not buy it...


----------



## nooneuknow

It is my understanding that the RF remote for the January Mini will simply be identical to the existing Roamio remotes, and that "zigbee" support is already in them. Beyond that, when it comes to if there is any support (or any need for it) in the TiVo or Mini, that is outside what I think I know (besides the obvious need for the host TiVo or Mini to accept RF).


----------



## tarheelblue32

poppagene said:


> How about MoCa 2.0 to go with the new FiOS routers.


You're probably going to have to wait until the 4k TiVo DVRs (and 4k Minis) come out for that.


----------



## Dan203

One other thing that would be nice is 1080p output like the Roamio. I know there was a big debate over whether or not it was needed, but it would still be nice to have since it makes the menus look better on a big 1080p TV.


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> One other thing that would be nice is 1080p output like the Roamio. I know there was a big debate over whether or not it was needed, but it would still be nice to have since it makes the menus look better on a big 1080p TV.


Agreed, 1080p would be a welcome addition!

I debated you on it, but it was based on only 1080i signals. Once you pointed out what I wasn't taking into account about 480i/p and 720p signals also being upconverted I agreed that 1080p would be the best option. Thanks for pointing that out Dan!


----------



## JWhites

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The FCC filing's artwork/photos suggests it's the same form factor with all the same inputs.
> 
> No tests suggested wifi streaming.
> 
> The Zigbee tech (802.15.4) is the same as the Roamio remote. Zigbee is low-range and low-speed (compared to wifi).
> 
> If there's a CPU upgrade, a logical pick is the BCM7428 (3000 dmips, moca 2.0) but I don't know if they'd bother. Could just be a cost-reduced job.


I dunno about the need to do a CPU upgrade but I absolutely would like to see MoCA 2.0 and gigabit Ethernet.


----------



## aaronwt

tarheelblue32 said:


> You're probably going to have to wait until the 4k TiVo DVRs (and 4k Minis) come out for that.


Even then it would not be needed. MoCA 1.1 is enough to handle it. UHD using HEVC will not be very bandwidth intensive. Most content recorded now is still using MPEG2.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> One other thing that would be nice is 1080p output like the Roamio. I know there was a big debate over whether or not it was needed, but it would still be nice to have since it makes the menus look better on a big 1080p TV.


The Mini is already capable of outputting 1080P24. Since one of the recent updates they have been outputting content scaled to 1080P24 from some of the apps like Vudu and Netflix. They just need to add 1080P60 output.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

JWhites said:


> I dunno about the need to do a CPU upgrade but I absolutely would like to see MoCA 2.0 and gigabit Ethernet.


Yeah, unlike the DVRs the Mini's moca is integrated in its CPU, so they likely wouldn't do one without the other. Which is kinda why I don't think this is going to be an upgrade to either. But I won't complain if they do.


----------



## JWhites

Bigg said:


> Man, the difference between 25mbps and 50mbps is pretty big. I had Comcast at 25, it got upgraded to 50 and then to 105. The jump above 50 isn't as big, although if/when I move to a FIOS area, I'm getting 75/75, as it's only $10/mo more than 50/50, and it can come close to saturating a 100mbps Ethernet line, especially on the upload.
> 
> Yes. And 5Ghz devices only have the 5ghz SSID remembered, although that does reduce the range a lot, since they can't fall back to 2.4.


Oh if I ever move and get FiOS I'd be getting at least 150/150. I'm on Comcast 105 currently and simply cannot imagine life without it. Can't imagine anyone would settle for anything slower.


----------



## aaronwt

JWhites said:


> Oh if I ever move and get FiOS I'd be getting at least 150/150. I'm on Comcast 105 currently and simply cannot imagine life without it. Can't imagine anyone would settle for anything slower.


I kick myself every day from dropping from the 150mb/s tier on FiOS. At the time it was only a $20 difference between 150 and 75. So I figured I could always go back to the 150Mb/s tier. But as soon as I dropped to the 75Mb/s tier, the price difference to go back to 150 went up to $50.


----------



## JWhites

tarheelblue32 said:


> Probably just the RF remote. And for all we know, the price of the "new" Mini could jump back up to $250. An RF remote isn't worth $100+.


I agree, it would be easier and cheaper to just get the RF remote and dongle and pop it into the back of the current model. https://www.tivo.com/shop/detail/tivoslidepro


----------



## JWhites

Dan203 said:


> One other thing that would be nice is 1080p output like the Roamio. I know there was a big debate over whether or not it was needed, but it would still be nice to have since it makes the menus look better on a big 1080p TV.





HarperVision said:


> Agreed, 1080p would be a welcome addition!
> 
> I debated you on it, but it was based on only 1080i signals. Once you pointed out what I wasn't taking into account about 480i/p and 720p signals also being upconverted I agreed that 1080p would be the best option. Thanks for pointing that out Dan!


I would say 1080p would be perfect for the Netflix and other streaming apps as well.


----------



## JWhites

aaronwt said:


> Even then it would not be needed. MoCA 1.1 is enough to handle it. UHD using HEVC will not be very bandwidth intensive. Most content recorded now is still using MPEG2.


What about if or when MPEG4 starts rolling out for everyone, what would the bandwidth and Mbps be?


----------



## JWhites

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yeah, unlike the DVRs the Mini's moca is integrated in its CPU, so they likely wouldn't do one without the other. Which is kinda why I don't think this is going to be an upgrade to either. But I won't complain if they do.


Remind me, is the current Mini 10/100 or Gigabit? I've read reviews that mentioned one or the other. I agree with you regarding the processor as well. Can't hurt


----------



## aaronwt

JWhites said:


> What about if or when MPEG4 starts rolling out for everyone, what would the bandwidth and Mbps be?


It already handles H.264. My Minis have no problem with my FiOS H.264 channels. Plus that is more efficient so it can use less bandwidth than an equivalent MPEG2 show.


----------



## JWhites

aaronwt said:


> It already handles H.264. My Minis have no problem with my FiOS H.264 channels. Plus that is more efficient so it can use less bandwidth than an equivalent MPEG2 show.


How is the picture quality of the MPEG4 channels though the mini? Is there any processor lag or problems with performance or menu lag/delay when using the mini while playing MPEG4 channels verses MPEG2 channels?


----------



## aaronwt

JWhites said:


> How is the picture quality of the MPEG4 channels though the mini? Is there any processor lag or problems with performance or menu lag/delay when using the mini while playing MPEG4 channels verses MPEG2 channels?


It's identical to any MPEG2 channels. The only way I know a difference is by going into the DVR diagnostics section on the Raomio Pro and seeing if the channel is H.264 or MPEG2. FiOS has one channel that is around 19Mb/s and also uses H.264. I have no idea why it's at such a high bitrate using H.264. But the Mini behaves the same whether a 19Mb/s H.264 channel or a 10Mb/s MPEG2 channel. It works fine either way.


----------



## Diana Collins

MPEG4 channels take a tiny bit longer to tune (nature of the beast with MPEG4), but otherwise there is no difference.


----------



## JWhites

Ok awesome, thanks for the info. I wonder if the current mini can stream copy protected or restricted MPEG4 downloaded videos like CNET.


----------



## aaronwt

JWhites said:


> Ok awesome, thanks for the info. I wonder if the current mini can stream copy protected or restricted MPEG4 downloaded videos like CNET.


Where would they be streamed from?

I only know that there are CNET videos to stream from the "Web Video Hotlist" on the Mini.


----------



## JWhites

You can download them via the search and store them in the Now Playing List on the DVR.


----------



## aaronwt

JWhites said:


> You can download them via the search and store them in the Now Playing List on the DVR.


If it's protected like Amazon downloads, then you wouldn't be able to stream them out of the box they were originally downloaded to.


----------



## Bigg

JWhites said:


> Oh if I ever move and get FiOS I'd be getting at least 150/150. I'm on Comcast 105 currently and simply cannot imagine life without it. Can't imagine anyone would settle for anything slower.


150/150 would be nice, but considering a lot of servers struggle to get much over 50mbps, I don't think I could justify the extra $20/mo. It is a nice option to have though.

My 105mbps Comcast is usually about 60mbps now, so 75/75 FIOS that actually does 81/91 would be an upgrade for sure. And I can't really complain about what I have now. It's pretty darn fast.



aaronwt said:


> I kick myself every day from dropping from the 150mb/s tier on FiOS. At the time it was only a $20 difference between 150 and 75. So I figured I could always go back to the 150Mb/s tier. But as soon as I dropped to the 75Mb/s tier, the price difference to go back to 150 went up to $50.


WOW. Last time I looked for MA, it was $10/mo to go from 50/50 to 75/75 and $20/mo to go from 75/75 to 150/150, but I don't think I could justify the extra $20/mo for 150/150. 75/75 is a no-brainer. Comcast has me programmed to buy whatever is $10/mo more than normal. 



aaronwt said:


> It's identical to any MPEG2 channels. The only way I know a difference is by going into the DVR diagnostics section on the Raomio Pro and seeing if the channel is H.264 or MPEG2. FiOS has one channel that is around 19Mb/s and also uses H.264. I have no idea why it's at such a high bitrate using H.264. But the Mini behaves the same whether a 19Mb/s H.264 channel or a 10Mb/s MPEG2 channel. It works fine either way.


Sounds like they converted and never reclaimed any space. What channel is it? That channels must look AMAZING!


----------



## JWhites

aaronwt said:


> If it's protected like Amazon downloads, then you wouldn't be able to stream them out of the box they were originally downloaded to.


They are copyright protected and unable to be transferred, but I'm able to perform Multi-Room Streaming from the TiVo it's recorded on from another TiVo.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> ..............
> 
> Sounds like they converted and never reclaimed any space. What channel is it? That channels must look AMAZING!


PIVOT HD is the channel. I'm going by the info KMTTG shows for the recordings I made from the channel.


----------



## JWhites

aaronwt said:


> PIVOT HD is the channel. I'm going by the info KMTTG shows for the recordings I made from the channel.


What about the file size of the recording on the TiVo, or is it not accurate?


----------



## aaronwt

JWhites said:


> What about the file size of the recording on the TiVo, or is it not accurate?


KMTTG shows the same file size info as the TiVo does.


----------



## JWhites

aaronwt said:


> KMTTG shows the same file size info as the TiVo does.


Oh ok cool. Man I'm really excited about the mini. Thanks for the info.


----------



## JWhites

You know I was thinking a cool feature for the new Mini (if there is one) would be a HDMI CEC functionality.


----------



## tarheelblue32

JWhites said:


> You know I was thinking a cool feature for the new Mini (if there is one) would be a HDMI CEC functionality.


If they haven't implemented that on the Roamio DVRs, there is no way they would implement it on the Minis.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> PIVOT HD is the channel. I'm going by the info KMTTG shows for the recordings I made from the channel.


Wow. Does it look amazing?


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> Wow. Does it look amazing?


It's not a channel I really watch. Most of the content seems to be from earlier in the 2000's. Like Veronica Mars, Buffy, Farscape, Friday Night Lights, movies,a and I think music videos. It does have some new content though. Supposedly the channel is targeted at young adults between 18 and 34 years old.


----------



## JWhites

tarheelblue32 said:


> If they haven't implemented that on the Roamio DVRs, there is no way they would implement it on the Minis.


Oh I know. I was reading a review on Engadget about the Roamio and they made some good points that TiVo should have included HDMI CEC, and since CEC could be added via an update to the TiVo, it's possible that TiVo can add it into the current Mini, Roamio series, and even the Premiere series as well as the "new" Mini. Wishful thinking? Maybe, but I'm hoping someone at TiVo sees this and implements this.



Engadget said:


> The new remote gets its own section, but one aspect we must cover here is the lack of HDMI-CEC on any of the new TiVos. We surely sound like a broken record at this point, but this time around should be much louder, as the missed use case is worse than ever. TiVo obviously recognizes the value in moving away from IR, but by not including HDMI-CEC in the Roamio, the new RF remote must still rely on IR for TV power and volume. This creates a somewhat disjointed experience because you can control the Roamio without any regard for where the remote is pointed, but to adjust the volume you must be sure to point it in the right direction. Add in our old points about the prominence of CEC in modern TVs and AV receivers and our dream of being able to turn our TVs on with the great smartphone and tablet apps from TiVo, and, needless to say, we're disappointed. There's the chance that it could be added later, as our understanding is that the lack of CEC in most DVRs has more to do with software than with hardware, but we aren't holding our breath and TiVo isn't commenting.


----------



## aaronwt

HDMI-CEC is one of the first things I turn off with any device. I'm running through too many devices for it to work properly anyway.


----------



## JWhites

That's fine.


----------



## JWhites

JWhites said:


> Remind me, is the current Mini 10/100 or Gigabit? I've read reviews that mentioned one or the other. I agree with you regarding the processor as well. Can't hurt


I'm still confused and I'm looking at TiVo specs and it says 10/100/1000 ethernet. http://custom.tivo.com/files_assets/TiVoMini_DS_v3_R1.pdf It also says the current Mini supports 1080p at both 24 and 60 frames per second.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> The Mini is already capable of outputting 1080P24. Since one of the recent updates they have been outputting content scaled to 1080P24 from some of the apps like Vudu and Netflix. They just need to add 1080P60 output.


That's what I meant 1080p/60, like the Roamio.


----------



## southerndoc

JWhites said:


> I'm still confused and I'm looking at TiVo specs and it says 10/100/1000 ethernet. http://custom.tivo.com/files_assets/TiVoMini_DS_v3_R1.pdf It also says the current Mini supports 1080p at both 24 and 60 frames per second.


Is that for current Minis or the January 2015 version? I thought all my Minis were 10/100. I have 1 hooked up to my LAN (the rest via MoCA) and I thought when I looked at the switch the last time, it was connecting at 100.


----------



## JWhites

geekmedic said:


> Is that for current Minis or the January 2015 version? I thought all my Minis were 10/100. I have 1 hooked up to my LAN (the rest via MoCA) and I thought when I looked at the switch the last time, it was connecting at 100.


Current Mini.
UPC: 851342000957
Model: TCDA92000
SKU: RA9200

I called tech support and they admitted that they're also seeing conflicting information whether the current Mini supports 100Mbps or 1Gbps. I found this thread which I thought I saw about a year ago but didn't retain it's information since I had no plans on purchasing a Mini at that time. What's weird is that one would think that if the money was going to be spent on MoCA they would just go with gigabit Ethernet too, like they did with the Premiere 4/XL4/Elite and Roamio Plus/Pro.


----------



## tarheelblue32

JWhites said:


> I'm still confused and I'm looking at TiVo specs and it says 10/100/1000 ethernet. http://custom.tivo.com/files_assets/TiVoMini_DS_v3_R1.pdf It also says the current Mini supports 1080p at both 24 and 60 frames per second.


I'm pretty sure that information is just wrong.


----------



## JWhites

tarheelblue32 said:


> I'm pretty sure that information is just wrong.


ok :up:


----------



## Bigg

JWhites said:


> What's weird is that one would think that if the money was going to be spent on MoCA they would just go with gigabit Ethernet too, like they did with the Premiere 4/XL4/Elite and Roamio Plus/Pro.


Why bother? It can't use anywhere close to that kind of bandwidth. All the streaming services are 12mbps or less, and even with buffering, I doubt they would go more than 50mbps at a peak. And for regular DVR functionality, 19mbps is the max you're ever going to see.


----------



## aaronwt

All I know is if the new Mini scales to 1080P60, I will be selling two of my current Minis for the new ones.

I don't care whether it's 100BT or 1000BT since that will make zero difference. Since none of the content the Mini streams can come anywhere close to fully taking advantage of 100BT let alone 1000BT.


----------



## kherr

A managed switch that one of my Minis is plugged into reports 100mbs .....


----------



## JWhites

kherr said:


> A managed switch that one of my Minis is plugged into reports 100mbs .....


Thanks for the info.


----------



## lessd

kherr said:


> A managed switch that one of my Minis is plugged into reports 100mbs .....


Other Threads have reported the 100Mb/s speed on the Mini, even my unmanaged switch has a light for 100Mb/s and two lights for 1Gb/s, and the Mini had only one light, the Roamio Plus two lights.


----------



## JWhites

I couldn't find that info at the time, otherwise I wouldn't have asked lol


----------



## dbpaddler

Diana Collins said:


> If they were clever, they'd make the mini the same size and shape as a Roku, which would allow the use of the many "back of the TV" mounting options that are available for Rokus.
> 
> But, since it doesn't seem that they are changing the form factor, I would guess that the remote update and a few minor internal updates may be pretty much the extent of the changes. A faster CPU is always welcome, but the Mini doesn't seem to need one...even the Amazon app performs pretty well.


I actually mounted a few on the backs of tvs with some Velcro and from the top so I could have it sit a half inch below the bottom edge of the tv and kill the need for the USB IR Adaptor. Has been working great so far.


----------



## kokishin

Just an FYI:

I have a Pro connected to a 1Gbps ethernet switch and a Mini connected to the Pro via Moca. The Pro reports the Moca connection TX PHY Rate of ~280Mbps and the RX PHY Rate 0f ~270Mbbps. The Mini also reports the same rates but TX and RX are reversed as expected.


----------



## trip1eX

I'll probably cave (even though I bought 2 Minis 2 months ago) and get 2 new Minis just to have the same remote as the Roamio. Same size, layout and RF.


That was my big complaint about the Mini. It is still annoying to me to have a different remote at the Minis that is so similar yet different. You always have to think about hitting the guide button or zoom button or record button etc. You can't quite just operate on auto pilot. 

My wife and kids though think all the remotes are the same. They unknowingly swapped remotes between the Roamio and the Mini and couldn't figure out why each remote wasn't working properly.


----------



## aaronwt

trip1eX said:


> I'll probably cave (even though I bought 2 Minis 2 months ago) and get 2 new Minis just to have the same remote as the Roamio. Same size, layout and RF.
> 
> That was my big complaint about the Mini. It is still annoying to me to have a different remote at the Minis that is so similar yet different. You always have to think about hitting the guide button or zoom button or record button etc. You can't quite just operate on auto pilot.
> 
> My wife and kids though think all the remotes are the same. They unknowingly swapped remotes between the Roamio and the Mini and couldn't figure out why each remote wasn't working properly.


This is why I bought a bunch of SLide Pro remotes when they were first released. I didn't want to deal with using two types of TiVo remotes with the different button placement.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> This is why I bought a bunch of SLide Pro remotes when they were first released. I didn't want to deal with using two types of TiVo remotes with the different button placement.


I don't find it that big of a deal. I have the Glo and a Slide Pro and I switch back and forth on a regular basis. I guess I like the Slide Pro a little more, but either one is fine until it gets cold in the basement, and then the Slide Pro is the only one I will use! I also have Minis with the regular Premiere remote. They all seem about the same to me.


----------



## mrizzo80

Wonder if it is just a coincidence that the current Mini offer ends on January 6th - the same day CES 2015 starts.

http://www.cesweb.org/


----------



## tarheelblue32

mrizzo80 said:


> Wonder if it is just a coincidence that the current Mini offer ends on January 6th - the same day CES 2015 starts.
> 
> http://www.cesweb.org/


There are no coincidences.


----------



## Dan203

mrizzo80 said:


> Wonder if it is just a coincidence that the current Mini offer ends on January 6th - the same day CES 2015 starts.
> 
> http://www.cesweb.org/


Probably not.

But I doubt the Mini lifetime offer will actually end on that date. The date likely reflects the announcement of a new Mini which will probably result in a price reduction for the old Mini thus ending the current deal.


----------



## HarperVision

mrizzo80 said:


> Wonder if it is just a coincidence that the current Mini offer ends on January 6th - the same day CES 2015 starts. http://www.cesweb.org/


Yeah, I pointed that out shortly after that date was revealed. I agree.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

External and internal photos of the new Mini were posted on the FCC site on 12/1. Nothing special, just shows it's the same form factor.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=437495&fcc_id=TGN-TCDA93000


----------



## sangs

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Photos of the new Mini were posted on the FCC site on 12/1. Nothing special, just shows it's the same form factor.
> 
> https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=437495&fcc_id=TGN-TCDA93000


If I'm reading it correctly, is the only real change integrated RF?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

sangs said:


> If I'm reading it correctly, is the only real change integrated RF?


Possibly, if not probably. It's the only one we know of.

Can't directly identify the CPU but if someone has a clear shot of the existing Mini's mobo (without heatsink) some comparisons could be made.


----------



## brentil

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Possibly, if not probably. It's the only one we know of.
> 
> Can't directly identify the CPU but if someone has a clear shot of the existing Mini's mobo (without heatsink) some comparisons could be made.


This post from the original unboxing thread has 3 pictures of the 92000 Mini board.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9561390#post9561390




























vs FCC 93000 pictures

https://apps.fcc.gov/eas/GetApplicationAttachment.html?id=2381863


----------



## brentil

And here is a combined picture I just made of the 2 boards. You can see it's gone under some redesign and component changes.


----------



## tatergator1

Definitely shows some rearrangement of components between versions, and some other obvious differences. Whether these are substantive, or simply changes for a more efficient design remains to be seen. Wonder what the newly reserved space in the upper left corner is for?


----------



## telemark

I feel like I'm missing something, in particular an RF circuit / antenna on the TCDA93000 board.

The application says RF4CE radio, so I imagine there's suppose to be a daughter card, that goes in the top left.


----------



## bradleys

I really think the only update you are going to see is RF and a Roamio remote - I would like to be wrong, but I just cannot think of anything else that is really missing hardware wise.


----------



## tatergator1

telemark said:


> I feel like I'm missing something, in particular an RF circuit / antenna on the TCDA93000 board.
> 
> The application says RF4CE radio, so I imagine there's suppose to be a daughter card, that goes in the top left.


That's my thought, but you would think it would be in the photos as part of the FCC testing.


----------



## Dan203

bradleys said:


> I really think the only update you are going to see is RF and a Roamio remote - I would like to be wrong, but I just cannot think of anything else that is really missing hardware wise.


It "might" also use a newer chip for faster performance and possibly 1080p, but other then that I can't think of what else the Mini is really missing. Maybe a new case design that follows the Roamio aesthetics better?


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> It "might" also use a newer chip for faster performance and possibly 1080p, but other then that I can't think of what else the Mini is really missing. Maybe a new case design that follows the Roamio aesthetics better?


I hope they can put a better looking case on that ugly duckling!


----------



## brentil

Bigg said:


> I hope they can put a better looking case on that ugly duckling!


External photos was one of the items in the FCC link posted above, there's no need for speculation because we have the information.

https://apps.fcc.gov/eas/GetApplicationAttachment.html?id=2381862


----------



## telemark

brentil said:


> https://apps.fcc.gov/eas/GetApplicationAttachment.html?id=2381862


Deep linking to the Attachments doesn't come through. You can link to the index page though.


----------



## bradleys

The new mini, same as the old!


----------



## bradleys

Let me ask... Is this release a mistake? TiVo has a request for confidentiality for external, internal photos, etc... for 180 days from the date of the Grant of Equipment Authorization.

Now I am not sure what that specific date is, but 180 days from the 13 Aug request would be 9 Feb.


----------



## Bigg

bradleys said:


> The new mini, same as the old!


----------



## Dan203

bradleys said:


> Let me ask... Is this release a mistake?


Maybe their request was denied?


----------



## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> Maybe their request was denied?


Or partially denied, since there was a delay, just not the full 180 days. Since the new model looks exactly the same as the old, that would probably be grounds for a partial denial.


----------



## brentil

bradleys said:


> Let me ask... Is this release a mistake? TiVo has a request for confidentiality for external, internal photos, etc... for 180 days from the date of the Grant of Equipment Authorization.
> 
> Now I am not sure what that specific date is, but 180 days from the 13 Aug request would be 9 Feb.


This is likely just standard operating procedure.


----------



## JWhites

Dan203 said:


> It "might" also use a newer chip for faster performance and possibly 1080p, but other then that I can't think of what else the Mini is really missing. Maybe a new case design that follows the Roamio aesthetics better?


Unless I misunderstood, there is already 1080p with the current model.


----------



## HarperVision

JWhites said:


> Unless I misunderstood, there is already 1080p with the current model.


Only 1080p24 support for things like Netflix movies.


----------



## tarheelblue32

HarperVision said:


> Only 1080p24 support for things like Netflix movies.


That's true. But even though the Mini only outputs 1080i for regular TV, don't most 1080p TVs just convert it to 1080p anyway? So is it really necessary to have the Mini do it?


----------



## JWhites

I am really glad to see them using the same design as the original Mini. I mean the look of the Mini is well known and dare I say iconic by anyone who is familiar with TiVo, and there's really nothing wrong functionally with the design. In addition, this will prevent them from needing to take new pictures for marketing and promotions which should save them money, plus they can continue to use the same supplier of the external shell instead of shopping around for a supplier who would be capable of making a more complicated design, and allow them to use the shells they already have in the factory which were intended for the original Mini, so the transition from the original Mini and the new Mini is seamless and won't cause delays. And of course on the consumer side it will allow uniformity for customers that already own the original Mini who want to purchase more.


----------



## JWhites

HarperVision said:


> Only 1080p24 support for things like Netflix movies.


And what's the problem with that? As far as I know there is no content provider that offers 1080p60 so it would probably be underutilized if even used at all.


----------



## tarheelblue32

JWhites said:


> And what's the problem with that? As far as I know there is no content provider that offers 1080p60 so it would probably be underutilized if even used at all.


I think he means he wants the Mini to be able to upconvert to 1080p the same way the Roamio can.


----------



## JWhites

tarheelblue32 said:


> I think he means he wants the Mini to be able to upconvert to 1080p the same way the Roamio can.


Oh. Well that's a hot button topic that I'm not gonna get into.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> I hope they can put a better looking case on that ugly duckling!


I like the current look. And it's still small. Nothing huge like the Comcast X1 client boxes.

I don't plan on replacing mine but if the new one has 1080P60 output I will probably end up replacing a couple of them.


----------



## HarperVision

tarheelblue32 said:


> That's true. But even though the Mini only outputs 1080i for regular TV, don't most 1080p TVs just convert it to 1080p anyway? So is it really necessary to have the Mini do it?





tarheelblue32 said:


> I think he means he wants the Mini to be able to upconvert to 1080p the same way the Roamio can.


Yes that's true. I used to think the same, that 1080i or p didn't matter as long as the deinterlacing from i to p was done correctly, but then Dan203 pointed out something I hadn't thought of which is what about the 480p and 720p channels? They would end up being scaled and interlaced to 1080i in the mini and then your tv/scaler/receiver would deinterlace them again to 1080p. This would be avoided in the mini if it did internal direct to 1080p scaling, eliminating the intermediate interlace/deinterlace step, possibly causing image degradation.

It doesn't matter if your only signal is 1080i though, as long as the deinterlacing is done properly.


----------



## aaronwt

HarperVision said:


> Yes that's true. I used to think the same, that 1080i or p didn't matter as long as the deinterlacing from i to p was done correctly, but then Dan203 pointed out something I hadn't thought of which is what about the 480p and 720p channels? They would end up being scaled and interlaced to 1080i in the mini and then your tv/scaler/receiver would deinterlace them again to 1080p. This would be avoided in the mini if it did internal direct to 1080p scaling, eliminating the intermediate interlace/deinterlace step, possibly causing image degradation.
> 
> It doesn't matter if your only signal is 1080i though, as long as the deinterlacing is done properly.


Also having one resolution output seems to help avoid any HDCP resyncing issues. I used to always use native resolution output on my Tivos, but stopped doing it when I got the Roamio.


----------



## Bigg

tarheelblue32 said:


> I think he means he wants the Mini to be able to upconvert to 1080p the same way the Roamio can.


The Roamio has a fixed 1080p60 output mode? That sounds terrible compared to letting my video processor do the work like I do with the Premiere's native output.


----------



## Dan203

Bigg said:


> The Roamio has a fixed 1080p60 output mode? That sounds terrible compared to letting my video processor do the work like I do with the Premiere's native output.


Depends. The scaler in most TVs isn't any better then the one in the Roamio. If you have a dedicated scaler, or a high end AV receiver with a nice scaler, then native output might make sense. Although the annoyance of the HDMI resync still applies. If you set the TiVo to a single resolution then you never have to see that again.


----------



## Pacomartin

Diana Collins said:


> I would expect a new Mini to get smaller. There is no reason the Mini couldn't be half the size it is today - biggest limiting factor is fitting HDMI, Ethernet, power, USB and analog out jacks on the edge of the circuit board. If they put the RF remote on board, they might drop the USB port. Oh, and of course, the system info screen will probably list it as a Series 5 device.


Can't they just drop the analog out jacks and sell the old series for people who want them?


----------



## lessd

Pacomartin said:


> Can't they just drop the analog out jacks and sell the old series for people who want them?


They could but it would complicate the issue as some people may purchase without reading that the analog outputs are not on the new Mini.


----------



## Pacomartin

tarheelblue32 said:


> But I could see the MSOs possibly wanting a Mini with its own tuner, and if they ever did make one for their MSO partners, then they might as well make a retail version too.


Not true, they made a PREVIEW which is a mini with a cableCARD and it's own tuner.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> Depends. The scaler in most TVs isn't any better then the one in the Roamio. If you have a dedicated scaler, or a high end AV receiver with a nice scaler, then native output might make sense. Although the annoyance of the HDMI resync still applies. If you set the TiVo to a single resolution then you never have to see that again.


Yeah, I don't mind the resync, I'll let my DVDO EDGE handle the video processing, thank you very much!


----------



## Dan203

Bigg said:


> Yeah, I don't mind the resync, I'll let my DVDO EDGE handle the video processing, thank you very much!


Most people don't have equipment like that. Most are connected directly to the TV or through a simple A/V receiver which just passes through the HDMI signal. Especially when using a Mini.


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> Most people don't have equipment like that. Most are connected directly to the TV or through a simple A/V receiver which just passes through the HDMI signal. Especially when using a Mini.


Many newer receivers have very good built in scaling using processing like Qdeo, Faroudja, Realta, etc. which in some cases is better than the Edge now, which is discontinued.


----------



## Dan203

HarperVision said:


> Many newer receivers have very good built in scaling using processing like Qdeo, Faroudja, Realta, etc. which in some cases is better than the Edge now, which is discontinued.


Those are still typically in higher end units costing $400+. Most average Joes are using cheap 5.1 systems from WalMart or soundbars.

Plus even if you have a receiver capable of scaling the resync might still be enough of an annoyance to use the TiVo instead.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> Most people don't have equipment like that. Most are connected directly to the TV or through a simple A/V receiver which just passes through the HDMI signal. Especially when using a Mini.


Even though I run through a DVDO Duo in my main setup, I still have my Roamio set for 1080P60 output for faster transitions.

I've been using video processors since the early 2000s. I used to always run native resolutions when possible. But I just don't have the patience any more to deal with it on broadcast content.

Plus the difference isn't as large as it was way back when I was scaling SD to and HD resolution. And devices are a lot better at it too when compared to the old days.


----------



## HarperVision

aaronwt said:


> Even though I run through a DVDO Duo in my main setup, I still have my Roamio set for 1080P60 output for faster transitions. I've been using video processors since the early 2000s. I used to always run native resolutions when possible. But I just don't have the patience any more to deal with it on broadcast content. Plus the difference isn't as large as it was way back when I was scaling SD to and HD resolution. And devices are a lot better at it too when compared to the old days.


Same here pretty much. Have you ever owned a TAW Rock+ scalar?


----------



## JWhites

So anyone have any other thoughts on the possible new January Mini besides video scaling?


----------



## bradleys

Meh - I think it will just be an RF remote...


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> Most people don't have equipment like that. Most are connected directly to the TV or through a simple A/V receiver which just passes through the HDMI signal. Especially when using a Mini.


True. At that point, it's probably a toss-up as to which scaler is better.



HarperVision said:


> Many newer receivers have very good built in scaling using processing like Qdeo, Faroudja, Realta, etc. which in some cases is better than the Edge now, which is discontinued.


Also true. AFAIK, the EDGE Green is still in production.


----------



## davezatz

tarheelblue32 said:


> Or partially denied, since there was a delay, just not the full 180 days. Since the new model looks exactly the same as the old, that would probably be grounds for a partial denial.


As someone who spends way too much time in the FCC database... I'd say it's probably just clerical error.

Last I heard, we were looking at a March release and the only end-user facing change is RF remote. Not sure what happens with current Mini pricing that expires in January, if there is indeed a gap before new Mini arrives.


----------



## davezatz

Just found out the Mini "promo" pricing has been extended until 05/04/15.


----------



## tarheelblue32

davezatz said:


> Just found out the Mini "promo" pricing has been extended until 05/04/15.


Where did you hear that? Their website still says January 6.


----------



## tatergator1

tarheelblue32 said:


> Where did you hear that? Their website still says January 6.


He has his sources. I'd expect the website to not be updated until January 6th as a marketing gimmick to suggest you need to act now to get the special pricing.


----------



## DawnW

That would be good news and I am hoping for some of those under $100 deals again as well.



davezatz said:


> Just found out the Mini "promo" pricing has been extended until 05/04/15.


----------



## dbpaddler

DawnW said:


> That would be good news and I am hoping for some of those under $100 deals again as well.


I would doubt that. The only reason they were under $100 is because they didn't get a chance to raise the prices after Tivo's lifetime announcement. Those prices were under $100 because it was the assumption you were paying a monthly fee for it kinda like paying a subsidized price for the Mini. Not the case now with the lifetime.


----------



## DawnW

When was the announcement?

I haven't been keeping up with Tivo for a while. We have just been happily using our Series 3 Tivos with lifetime.



dbpaddler said:


> I would doubt that. The only reason they were under $100 is because they didn't get a chance to raise the prices after Tivo's lifetime announcement. Those prices were under $100 because it was the assumption you were paying a monthly fee for it kinda like paying a subsidized price for the Mini. Not the case now with the lifetime.


----------



## dbpaddler

DawnW said:


> When was the announcement?
> 
> I haven't been keeping up with Tivo for a while. We have just been happily using our Series 3 Tivos with lifetime.


Quite a few months ago. And of course the resellers hadn't caught up yet so people were buying up the Minis at $80 and change until they upped their pricing. I bought three from B&H Photo, and I'm sure many on here stocked up on them too.


----------



## Series3Sub

Bigg said:


> True. At that point, it's probably a toss-up as to which scaler is better.
> 
> Also true. AFAIK, the EDGE Green is still in production.


I went to their website 2 months ago (and double-checked just now) and DVDO does NOT show the Green to purchase nor listed in their "products" pages. The Green is only on the site as legacy and has not had a software update in quite some time. It seems the only comparable devices to the Green are the iSCAN models or the Quick6. Some Green's are available from 3rd parties on Amazon or ebay as used or claimed new, but it seems DVDO is no longer producing the Green.


----------



## Series3Sub

tatergator1 said:


> He has his sources. I'd expect the website to not be updated until January 6th as a marketing gimmick to suggest you need to act now to get the special pricing.


EXACTLY!


----------



## Bigg

Series3Sub said:


> I went to their website 2 months ago (and double-checked just now) and DVDO does NOT show the Green to purchase nor listed in their "products" pages. The Green is only on the site as legacy and has not had a software update in quite some time. It seems the only comparable devices to the Green are the iSCAN models or the Quick6. Some Green's are available from 3rd parties on Amazon or ebay as used or claimed new, but it seems DVDO is no longer producing the Green.


Iiiiiiinteresting. They must have discontinued it then. The iSCAN is a model up from the EDGE, and the Quick6 doesn't really scale anything, it's just a weird HDMI switch/selector that has some really cool ideas in it that AVRs should use in terms of switching HDMI inputs visually and keeping them HDMI locked all the time.

They must have gotten eclipsed by what the mid-range to high-end AVRs do nowadays in terms of analog conversion and upscaling. I'd have to say it would be nice to have a single unit do everything in terms of analog conversion, HDMI switching, etc, and support 4K, as some of the $mid-range to high-end+ AVRs do today.


----------



## Pacomartin

davezatz said:


> Just found out the Mini "promo" pricing has been extended until 05/04/15.


Now that the website is posted *"Offer ends May 4, 2015"* can we presume that this is the new target date for the upgraded mini?


----------



## Dan203

That's what I was thinking. Perhaps they still have old inventory they need to clear out before they offer a new model and completely kill demand for the old one.


----------



## Arcady

The TiVo Store is down for updates and the picture of the TiVo Mini looks different...


----------



## HarperVision

What's different? I don't see it. Are you talking the images you posted or on the website?


----------



## Arcady

The image I posted was from the TiVo store website right now. The words "TiVo Mini" are in the middle of the unit instead of the left hand side, like all the other images on the site (and how the current Mini looks.) The name of the image file also has "mini-new" in it.

Here's what the same image looked like yesterday:


----------



## HarperVision

Oh cool. Thanks!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

edit: deleted


----------



## usc-fan

This seems to be the tivo mini in the fcc site and talk about in this thread.

I order one tonight and its label mini 2

RA9300 TiVo Mini 2 -TiVo Streaming Device Leo3


----------



## tarheelblue32

usc-fan said:


> This seems to be the tivo mini in the fcc site and talk about in this thread.
> 
> I order one tonight and its label mini 2
> 
> RA9300 TiVo Mini 2 -TiVo Streaming Device Leo3


When you receive it, please report back and confirm that it has and RF receiver built in. My guess is that it will.


----------



## HarperVision

tarheelblue32 said:


> When you receive it, please report back and confirm that it has and RF receiver built in. My guess is that it will.


Dave Zatz confirmed on his blog that it's just an old Mini with a Roamio remote included.

www.zatznotfunny.com



DaveZatz said:


> UPDATE! TiVo has informed me that this is NOT a new Mini. They have merely bundled the Roamio RF/IR remote with the existing Mini hardware. Therefore, as the support transcript in the comments below indicates, the updated remote will only work in IR mode. So please go cancel your orders and let's hope whenever new Mini hardware really hits, it also possesses WiFi.


----------



## Dan203

You'd think that they'd at least include the dongle used with the Slide Pro so it would work in RF mode. What good is it if it only works in IR mode?


----------



## Dan203

Or maybe they'll start selling the dongle separately.


----------



## CoxInPHX

usc-fan said:


> This seems to be the tivo mini in the fcc site and talk about in this thread.
> 
> I order one tonight and its label mini 2
> 
> RA9300 TiVo Mini 2 -TiVo Streaming Device *Leo3*


oops


----------



## usc-fan

Dan203 said:


> You'd think that they'd at least include the dongle used with the Slide Pro so it would work in RF mode. What good is it if it only works in IR mode?


I did buy the slide pro also. Will test to see if it works.


----------



## tarheelblue32

HarperVision said:


> Dave Zatz confirmed on his blog that it's just an old Mini with a Roamio remote included.
> 
> www.zatznotfunny.com


We'll see if he's right. I'm still skeptical.


----------



## trip1eX

tarheelblue32 said:


> We'll see if he's right. I'm still skeptical.


I was too. It didn't make sense. The time to package the Roamio remote with the MIni was 1 1/2 years ago. Not now just before the Mini 2 comes out.

And, sure enough, today he is saying, in his comments, that it is the Mini2.


----------



## Dan203

People are apparently getting email confirmations listing it as a "Mini 2" and with a newer model number, so maybe it has the RF built in like we expected.


----------



## davezatz

tarheelblue32 said:


> We'll see if he's right. I'm still skeptical.


I'm still skeptical too. But it wouldn't be _me_ being right/wrong, it'd be TiVo personel in the Marketing group that I had a phone conversation with (plus that one support agent - tho we know to take that with a grain of salt). Again, I go back to the launch of the Roamio OTA - we were originally told no Mini but Lifetime, and both were wrong. :/ I miss the old marketing and pr team...


----------



## tarheelblue32

davezatz said:


> I'm still skeptical too. But it wouldn't be _me_ being right/wrong, it'd be TiVo personel in the Marketing group that I had a phone conversation with (plus that one support agent - tho we know to take that with a grain of salt). Again, I go back to the launch of the Roamio OTA - we were originally told no Mini but Lifetime, and both were wrong. :/ I miss the old marketing and pr team...


I completely understand that you are reporting on what the official TiVo sources are saying, and I am engaged in pure speculation.


----------



## usc-fan

Wow still no official word.... 

The "old minis" came in from amazon today. 

Guess i will find out monday when the mini 2 get here.

If its a new mini 2 I plan to test network speed, 1080p support, RF support or RF dongle support, and compare the menu/play speed with old minis.

Hope its not just a cost reduction and its performs worse!


----------



## Arcady

usc-fan said:


> Hope its not just a cost reduction and its performs worse!


I'm hoping the opposite. My wish list includes gigabit ethernet, MoCA bridging, and RF remote support. Native 1080p would be a bonus.


----------



## usc-fan

Arcady said:


> My wish list includes gigabit ethernet, RF remote support. Native 1080p would be a bonus.


Mine is exactly the same. It would have everything i want! I already have gigabit ethernet run to each tv.

Really no reason for it not to have gigabit ethernet when moca already is over 100mbps.


----------



## Dan203

No reason to give it gigabit. It will only ever stream a single recording at a time. The absolute max that a cable channel could ever be is 38Mbps and the max an OTA station could be is 19.2Mbps. Most are actually 12-15Mbps. Netflix, Hulu, Vudu, etc... are all even less then that. There is absolutely no need for gigabit networking on a Mini.... UNLESS they add MoCa bridging, then gigabit would allow it to support the full speed of MoCa which is 230Mbps. .


----------



## Arcady

Dan203 said:


> No reason to give it gigabit. It will only ever stream a single recording at a time. The absolute max that a cable channel could ever be is 38Mbps and the max an OTA station could be is 19.2Mbps. Most are actually 12-15Mbps. Netflix, Hulu, Vudu, etc... are all even less then that. There is absolutely no need for gigabit networking on a Mini.... UNLESS they add MoCa bridging, then gigabit would allow it to support the full speed of MoCa which is 230Mbps. .


It's not an either/or kind of thing. The chipset that does MoCA bridging also happens to be gigabit. So we will either get gigabit and bridging, or the same old 10/100 and no bridging. Since they already buy the bridging chip for the Roamio Plus/Pro, they could actually save money using it in the Mini. Using a separate ethernet chip and non-bridging MoCA chip, as they do in the current Mini, seems like a waste of money.


----------



## dcline414

Dan203 said:


> No reason to give it gigabit. It will only ever stream a single recording at a time. The absolute max that a cable channel could ever be is 38Mbps and the max an OTA station could be is 19.2Mbps. Most are actually 12-15Mbps. Netflix, Hulu, Vudu, etc... are all even less then that. There is absolutely no need for gigabit networking on a Mini.... UNLESS they add MoCa bridging, then gigabit would allow it to support the full speed of MoCa which is 230Mbps. .


Netflix states that a 25mbps connection is required to stream their highest quality ultra HD content. Still doesn't require gigabit, but is now the benchmark for single-stream bandwidth.


----------



## usc-fan

Dan203 said:


> No reason to give it gigabit. It will only ever stream a single recording at a time. The absolute max that a cable channel could ever be is 38Mbps and the max an OTA station could be is 19.2Mbps. Most are actually 12-15Mbps. Netflix, Hulu, Vudu, etc... are all even less then that. There is absolutely no need for gigabit networking on a Mini.... UNLESS they add MoCa bridging, then gigabit would allow it to support the full speed of MoCa which is 230Mbps. .


You still have to buffer to start playback or fast foward...etc for the streaming services.

I have a 500mbps internet connection. It would be useful for me. If they are releasing mini 2 no reason not to support gigabit ethernet.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Arcady said:


> Since they already buy the bridging chip for the Roamio Plus/Pro, they could actually save money using it in the Mini. Using a separate ethernet chip and non-bridging MoCA chip, as they do in the current Mini, seems like a waste of money.


Not sure... The moca is integrated in the CPU. Separating the moca from it and adding bridging would likely increase the cost a pinch. In any event, we've seen the Mini2's motherboard. Things are moved around but not much is new.

There is an interesting new 5-pin female expansion socket. Incidentally, the Roamio's wifi card is connected to a 5-pin socket. At one point RCN wanted a wifi Mini, so maybe they're leaving their options open for MSO's. (Not likely for retail.)


----------



## h2oskierc

I was always guessing that WiFi wouldn't come to the mini because it would be a support nightmare. Has Moca been a big problem for tivo?


----------



## tarheelblue32

h2oskierc said:


> I was always guessing that WiFi wouldn't come to the mini because it would be a support nightmare. Has Moca been a big problem for tivo?


MoCA is a very simple networking standard, even simpler in many ways than ethernet. As long as you have decent coax already installed, which most people do, you are usually good to go. Only the most robust WiFi network is able to provide a good user experience for the Mini, and many people do not have that type of wireless network.


----------



## bradleys

tarheelblue32 said:


> MoCA is a very simple networking standard, even simpler in many ways than ethernet. As long as you have decent coax already installed, which most people do, you are usually good to go. Only the most robust WiFi network is able to provide a good user experience for the Mini, and many people do not have that type of wireless network.


My daughter complains all the time that Netflix on her ipad doesn't work as well in her bedroom as it does in the rest of the house.

It is just about the farthest point from the Router, so that fact doesn't surprise me at all... (I think she wants me to fix it... )

My point is, a wifi connection is inconsistent simply based on where the router is located. MOCA is a consistent, strong, stable signal - a far better experience for video.

I wouldn't use wifi even if it were on board...









Not my house, but a good representation of signal strength with an average placement in an average home.


----------



## usc-fan

Looking on the tivo website in my billing history it list the mini as: "HW Upgrade TiVo Mini - Leo3 $149.99" 

On the FCC website: Subject: Confidentiality Request for: LEO-3 Model: TCDA93000


----------



## Bigg

dcline414 said:


> Netflix states that a 25mbps connection is required to stream their highest quality ultra HD content. Still doesn't require gigabit, but is now the benchmark for single-stream bandwidth.


I doubt a new Mini would support 4K.



usc-fan said:


> You still have to buffer to start playback or fast foward...etc for the streaming services.
> 
> I have a 500mbps internet connection. It would be useful for me. If they are releasing mini 2 no reason not to support gigabit ethernet.


No matter how fast your Ethernet connection is, you're not going to get even 100mbps when buffering. Not even close.


----------



## dcline414

Bigg said:


> I doubt a new Mini would support 4K.


I thought it was a passthrough, like how it already displays 1080p even though only streaming content is passed through. If not, should just be a software update to add.


----------



## usc-fan

Bigg said:


> No matter how fast your Ethernet connection is, you're not going to get even 100mbps when buffering. Not even close.


What would be the limiting factor?


----------



## Dan203

dcline414 said:


> I thought it was a passthrough, like how it already displays 1080p even though only streaming content is passed through. If not, should just be a software update to add.


It would need to support it in hardware. 4k uses H.265 encoding, all other Netflix content is H.264. So they would need to have an H.265 decoder chip in the Mini to support 4k. It would also need HDMI 2.0 to do full res 4k @ 60fps. Although I think most of the movies on there now are 24fps, which would work with HDMI 1.4.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> It would need to support it in hardware. 4k uses H.265 encoding, all other Netflix content is H.264. So they would need to have an H.265 decoder chip in the Mini to support 4k. It would also need HDMI 2.0 to do full res 4k @ 60fps. Although I think most of the movies on their now are 24fps, which would work with HDMI 1.4.


Yes, 1.4 will support 4k @ 30fps.


----------



## Grakthis

bradleys said:


> My daughter complains all the time that Netflix on her ipad doesn't work as well in her bedroom as it does in the rest of the house.
> 
> It is just about the farthest point from the Router, so that fact doesn't surprise me at all... (I think she wants me to fix it... )
> 
> My point is, a wifi connection is inconsistent simply based on where the router is located. MOCA is a consistent, strong, stable signal - a far better experience for video.
> 
> I wouldn't use wifi even if it were on board...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not my house, but a good representation of signal strength with an average placement in an average home.


I was going to point out that this example just needs a second WAP with a wired backbone and coverage would be perfect, but then I realized if a homeowner had that, they wouldn't need to run their mini on wifi.

But you know, that's what I do. Multiple APs.

I've actually be thinking about going to a controller based system someday for more seemless handoff.


----------



## aaronwt

bradleys said:


> My daughter complains all the time that Netflix on her ipad doesn't work as well in her bedroom as it does in the rest of the house.
> 
> It is just about the farthest point from the Router, so that fact doesn't surprise me at all... (I think she wants me to fix it... )
> 
> My point is, a wifi connection is inconsistent simply based on where the router is located. MOCA is a consistent, strong, stable signal - a far better experience for video.
> 
> I wouldn't use wifi even if it were on board...
> 
> Not my house, but a good representation of signal strength with an average placement in an average home.


That's why a properly setup WiFi network involves multiple Access Points. One AP can't handle it. I have four APs just for my condo to make sure every device has excellent signal strength. And to make sure I have no congestion issues.

At work we setup WiFi networks for many clients. They have always been setup with multiple APs since that is the only way to get proper coverage. The home is no different. Unfortunately the vast majority of homes do not have WiFi networks setup properly.


----------



## tarheelblue32

aaronwt said:


> Unfortunately the vast majority of homes do not have WiFi networks setup properly.


Which is exactly why a Mini with WiFi isn't going to happen.


----------



## sheshechic

If a new Mini were as exciting as some of the wishes and/or guesses posted here wouldn't they have talked about it at CES?


----------



## Bigg

dcline414 said:


> I thought it was a passthrough, like how it already displays 1080p even though only streaming content is passed through. If not, should just be a software update to add.


The box still has to be able to output it. 4K is highly unlikely.



usc-fan said:


> What would be the limiting factor?


The server on the other end isn't going to give you 100mbps to buffer a 7-12mbps video stream just to cut your buffering time down by a couple of seconds. It just makes no sense.


----------



## usc-fan

Look like ups is delaying delivery until weds. Anyone getting one sooner?


----------



## COBeav

usc-fan said:


> Look like ups is delaying delivery until weds. Anyone getting one sooner?


Tuesday.


----------

