# Why is TiVo software stuck in the single-tuner days?



## coryb891 (Nov 4, 2005)

I get really frustrated sometimes with the TiVo software when it makes decisions seemingly using logic from the stone-age single-tuner days. Just now I tried to record a program that started at 7:00. The thing popped up and said that another program was already scheduled and it would have to cancel it. I had no idea why it couldn't record both since I have two tuners, and I didn't feel like messing with it so I just cancelled the previous recording. About 15 minutes later I get a notice asking to change the channel to NBATV to record a TiVo suggestion - a basketball game from 6:00 to 8:30. ?!?!?!

First of all, why does the thing regard its own suggestion more highly than the one I told it to record? And second, why is TiVo giving me a one-or-the-other choice anyways. This isn't the type of one-or-the-other scenario we had when TiVos had a single tuner. It's like the programmers just don't want to mess with their decade old algorithm for prompting the user. Why can't it ask "Which of the following do you wish to cancel? Option 1, Option 2, Option 3?" Seems like a pretty obvious functionality.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

TiVo software STILL sucks!

It's because they feel they have a brand manopoly and no one wants to challenge them. 

I had this cablecard TiVo and the On Demand controls would lag like crazy. Sometimes when you press too many FF/RW/Skip...it either "queues up" however many command times it wants and does it in either single skip or "blocks" with playback in between...or it skips all the way to the end of the movie for no reason and you have to start the move from the beginning! LOL 

And it doesn't cache menus (a simple obvious function any half wit programmer knows how to do), so unless you have like a perfect internet connection (think wireless) it would lag like crazy too.

The suggestion thing might be a result of financed promotion. I noticed that to at one point. But we would never really know.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Well, I too have similar frustrations about the software and how cumbersome it is to save what is already in my delayed live viewing so that the TiVo can change channels to start a timer recording-the other tuner is already in use for a recording or will be at the same time.

While TiVo is still a good DVR, some of the finer points on DVR software should have been improved by TiVo, but that may have taken them to a place where they would be infringing on patents. Here is what I like about the Dish DVR's that I wish TiVo could have something similar:

1. In delayed live viewing, a pop-up always notifies me that changing channels can only be executed in "Live" (or more precisely, the delay must caught up to "Live"). AT this prompt I am given a choice of cancelling the channel change or executing it, and the DVR will do it for me in delayed mode

This feature also prevent the DVR from dumping the buffer and changing to another channel in delayed viewing if I accidentally attempt to change channels. There have been more than a few times when I accidentally changed channels on my TiVo's and thereby LOSING what I had been watching in delayed mode.

2. When the other tuner is recording or is set to record at the same time, the pop-up 2 minute countdown appears warning that the tuner I am viewing will change channels for a timer recording. In delayed mode (and Live) I can press the record button and a pop-up of options appears including Record Entire Program provided the tuner was tuned to it from the beginning, Record remainder of Program which from this point to the end will save the remainder of the program while you view and the other tuner will tune to the other channel, or I can manually select from which point I want to save the program by REW to any point the program is in buffer, press record and select "Save Remaining Program" 

The point is that it is far more intuitive on the Dish DVR's, while executing similar commands on a TiVo while watching delayed live programming is cumbersome and with no prompts to guide you. I always have to play around or try to remember the "trick" to get it to do what I want, and I don't car for the fact that TiVo always save what is in the entire buffer if all I want is the last 2 minutes. However, I do accept that this is how TiVo works and don't let it bother too much.

This isn't kicking TiVo, it is a sense of sadness that TiVo having been so innovative and well ahead of the pack 13 years ago seems to have not improved some of the finer points of the DVR software to IMPROVE what WAS a great (or BEST) product but what is now a GOOD product because TiVo sometimes seems stuck in 1999. I can tell you that at Dish, many of the finer refinements and GREAT features that TiVo doesn't have (but some are on this forum's TiVo Wish List of features) is because Dish really listens to its customers and have added features and refinements because their customers asked or demanded it. Meanwhile it seems TiVo stopped listening to its customers (if it ever really did) back in the year 2000. But, then again, TiVo's real customers are the MSO's these days and not the retail subscribers. So that makes sense. I would really have preferred if TiVo had listened to us more and had really done the OTT features A1 top flight best similar to the Roku experience. It's heartbreaking that the "one box" that TiVo is supposed to be really requires one to also buy a Roku or Boxee Box, et al. Well, TiVo is still the best DVR for OTA and better than the current cable DVR's (maybe better than DirecTV, but certainly not better than Dish DVR's), but may not be able to hold a candle to some of cable's future DVR products. Finally the Elite is created, but not for OTA. I really would have gotten an Elite if it had offered 4 tuners for OTA, as well. I would have gladly upgraded, but if that's the case, I still prefer the S3 platform for reasons many have already posted.


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## jpcamaro70 (Nov 23, 2011)

Spend some time with other DVR's, maybe that'll help ease your pain.

Nothing is perfect and TiVo is a perfect example, you can make the best or one of the best products and still suffer from annoying issues.

I value BMW as the best pure drivers car available for the price. But, let me tell you, for all their great cars, each have an annoying little issue. Why do the cup holders have to suck? Why does the MMI require so many steps to back up from a menu? And many other things.

Just like the TiVo.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

rasmasyean said:


> TiVo software STILL sucks!


And yet, like democracy, it's still the best anyone has come up with, so far.



rasmasyean said:


> It's because they feel they have a brand *manopoly *


When my wife decides I'm all she can handle, that's a manopoly.



rasmasyean said:


> I had this cablecard TiVo and the On Demand controls would lag like crazy.


You also mentioned this in another thread yesterday. Could you elaborate how your TiVo has OnDemand and PPV?



rasmasyean said:


> The suggestion thing might be a result of financed promotion. I noticed that to at one point. But we would never really know.


Suggestions are chosen based on a "what TiVo thinks you like" algorithm. Promotions and payments play no role.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

coryb891 said:


> I get really frustrated sometimes with the TiVo software when it makes decisions seemingly using logic from the stone-age single-tuner days. Just now I tried to record a program that started at 7:00. The thing popped up and said that another program was already scheduled and it would have to cancel it. I had no idea why it couldn't record both since I have two tuners, and I didn't feel like messing with it so I just cancelled the previous recording. About 15 minutes later I get a notice asking to change the channel to NBATV to record a TiVo suggestion - a basketball game from 6:00 to 8:30. ?!?!?!
> 
> First of all, why does the thing regard its own suggestion more highly than the one I told it to record? And second, why is TiVo giving me a one-or-the-other choice anyways. This isn't the type of one-or-the-other scenario we had when TiVos had a single tuner. It's like the programmers just don't want to mess with their decade old algorithm for prompting the user. Why can't it ask "Which of the following do you wish to cancel? Option 1, Option 2, Option 3?" Seems like a pretty obvious functionality.


The program starting at 7:00 - How long was it scheduled to run?


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

astrohip said:


> You also mentioned this in another thread yesterday. Could you elaborate how your TiVo has OnDemand and PPV?


I'm not sure what you want me to tell you. I don't know the technical details or the name of the update that give it OD or PPV. It just has it. It's a cablecard TiVo...which I guess unlocks premium channels and OD/PPV. I don't know what else to say about it, but that feature sux compared to simple "Motorola" DVR's or whatever. And if you've tried it, I'm sure you would agree.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

rasmasyean said:


> I'm not sure what you want me to tell you. I don't know the technical details or the name of the update that give it OD or PPV. It just has it. It's a cablecard TiVo...which I guess unlocks premium channels and OD/PPV. I don't know what else to say about it, but that feature sux compared to simple "Motorola" DVR's or whatever. And if you've tried it, I'm sure you would agree.


It's good to know that, based on the level of knowledge/ignorance revealed by this post, we can give your opinion all the consideration it is due, which is to say none.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

rasmasyean said:


> I'm not sure what you want me to tell you. I don't know the technical details or the name of the update that give it OD or PPV. It just has it. It's a cablecard TiVo...which I guess unlocks premium channels and OD/PPV. I don't know what else to say about it, but that feature sux compared to simple "Motorola" DVR's or whatever. And if you've tried it, I'm sure you would agree.


FYI, tivo's do not support on demand.


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## tomm1079 (May 10, 2005)

vurbano said:


> FYI, tivo's do not support on demand.


yet ...


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## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

coryb891 said:


> I get really frustrated sometimes with the TiVo software when it makes decisions seemingly using logic from the stone-age single-tuner days. Just now I tried to record a program that started at 7:00. The thing popped up and said that another program was already scheduled and it would have to cancel it. I had no idea why it couldn't record both since I have two tuners, and I didn't feel like messing with it so I just cancelled the previous recording. About 15 minutes later I get a notice asking to change the channel to NBATV to record a TiVo suggestion - a basketball game from 6:00 to 8:30. ?!?!?!
> 
> First of all, why does the thing regard its own suggestion more highly than the one I told it to record? And second, why is TiVo giving me a one-or-the-other choice anyways. This isn't the type of one-or-the-other scenario we had when TiVos had a single tuner. It's like the programmers just don't want to mess with their decade old algorithm for prompting the user. Why can't it ask "Which of the following do you wish to cancel? Option 1, Option 2, Option 3?" Seems like a pretty obvious functionality.


Turn off Tivo Suggestions. Problem solved.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

rasmasyean said:


> I'm not sure what you want me to tell you. I don't know the technical details or the name of the update that give it OD or PPV. It just has it. It's a cablecard TiVo...which I guess unlocks premium channels and OD/PPV. I don't know what else to say about it, but that feature sux compared to simple "Motorola" DVR's or whatever. And if you've tried it, I'm sure you would agree.


Thank you. Your reply told me everything I need to know.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

So you're saying I'm lying about TiVo having On Demand? lol Why the heck would I do that??? Are you such a fanboi of TiVo's that you just can't accept that there's a feature that fails on it and just deny that it exists? whatever.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

No one is saying that you are lying. They are just saying, and rightfully so, that you don't know what you are talking about. The S1 did not do on demand. The S2 did not do on demand. The S3 did not do on demand. The S4 does not do on demand. TiVo does not currently, nor ever has supported on demand.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

jrm01 said:


> No one is saying that you are lying. They are just saying, and rightfully so, that you don't know what you are talking about. The S1 did not do on demand. The S2 did not do on demand. The S3 did not do on demand. The S4 does not do on demand. TiVo does not currently, nor ever has supported on demand.


Not entirely true as I said in the other post on this subject, RCN will lease you a Tivo premiere with a hook in the software to get to RCN's on Demand. What rasmasyean doesn't realize (or maybe in unaware of) is that when you watch RCN PPV through a regular RCN box, no tivo involved the FF/Rew controls are just as laggy as what he is seeing with his RCN Tivo. It is less obvious because with the regular remote all you have Play, stop FF, and Rew, so you don't have as much control as you do when looking at things recorded directly on the Tivo.


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## wbertram (Jun 14, 2002)

Not to defend the OP, but the RCN branded TiVo, built by TiVo and supported by RCN, does both On Demand and Pay per View. when connected to the RCN cable system.


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## NGeorge (Feb 27, 2004)

Can anyone explain to me what the "upstream" information and the upstream IP address in the CableCard information screens is all about? I just happened to notice a reference to an upstream IP when configuring my Motorola CableCards on Comcast (it showed "inactive" and all 0's)...

Is it that the Tivos physically *cant* send signals upstream--or is it that they only support On Demand in a format for CableCards that pretty much all providers except RCN and a few tiny systems do not support? 

I thought CableCards could do 2 way, but it was some copy protection BS that kept them from being supported... not actual ability to do it. 


--Nat


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## AnthonyWeiner (Jan 8, 2012)

Please read signature below.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

NGeorge said:


> Can anyone explain to me what the "upstream" information and the upstream IP address in the CableCard information screens is all about? I just happened to notice a reference to an upstream IP when configuring my Motorola CableCards on Comcast (it showed "inactive" and all 0's)...
> 
> Is it that the Tivos physically *cant* send signals upstream--or is it that they only support On Demand in a format for CableCards that pretty much all providers except RCN and a few tiny systems do not support?
> 
> ...


hmm. What model TiVo, cable system and exact screen did you see this on? The only IP address I see in the CableCARD screens is under "Interactive Info". The title on the screen is "Interactive (Aloha) Info". Bunch of lines , the numeric portion of which are all 0s. First line is IP Address: 0.0.0.0

I think the problem with OD and PPV is that there is no standard protocol for upstream communication. Each Cable system has there own. The implementation supposedly being worked on for Premieres connected to Comcast reportedly is a purely s/w solution, requiring no h/w, not even the previously rumored USB dongle.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

I agree on the OP point. I had a "clipping situation" where my wifes show ran till 10:05, I had a show that started at 10 and I wanted to record something that started at 10. It wanted to clip my wifes show that started at 10:05 and remove the last 5 minutes. My show was one that ran at 10 and 1AM! What I WANTED to do was cancel the recording of my 10 o'clock show and record the other show instead, but to do that, I had to manually pull up my season pass, tell it to record the 1AM showing (which, to TiVo's credit, did automatically cancel the 10 o'clock showing) then schedule my other show.

So, yes, I could do what I wanted to do, but when it showed the conflict menu, it would have been nice to give me a list of options to resolve the conflict instead of just giving me one.

Now, all of that said, this has happened like 5 times total over 10 years of TiVo ownership. So, you know, not really a big concern here especially given the work around.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

rasmasyean said:


> I'm not sure what you want me to tell you. I don't know the technical details or the name of the update that give it OD or PPV. It just has it. It's a cablecard TiVo...which I guess unlocks premium channels and OD/PPV. I don't know what else to say about it, but that feature sux compared to simple "Motorola" DVR's or whatever. And if you've tried it, I'm sure you would agree.





rasmasyean said:


> So you're saying I'm lying about TiVo having On Demand? lol Why the heck would I do that??? Are you such a fanboi of TiVo's that you just can't accept that there's a feature that fails on it and just deny that it exists? whatever.


I am saying that your inability to tell us anything specific about your unit--model number, where it came from, is it retail or cable or purchases, etc--makes most of us suspicious. Then when you combine that with your insistence that your TiVo can do something that only one specific model can do (and that one is private-branded for a MSO), well... the suspicion factor skyrockets.

If you want to have some credibility, you need to be more forthcoming. It's your problem, not our problem.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

TiVo also has longstanding misfeatures in how it handles recording failures. If a recording doesn't happen or is truncated, TiVo should:

1) Create a Message telling you that the recording has failed and why
2) Not put said recording on the 28-day "do not record" list
3) immediately reschedule said recording if possible.

Instead, Tivo does the exact opposite of these things: it gives no warning that a recording has failed, the show remains on the 28-day list so SPs and ARWLs do not pick it up, and it is not rescheduled.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

While the original poster may not have been very eloquent with the Tivo software issues, there is no doubt that Tivo does not handle conflict resolution well. 

If I want to record a game on tonight and both tuners are occupied concurrently at some point during the game, Tivo just gives you the option of canceling the attempted recording or canceling the recording that's lower on the priority list. While I know that in a perfect world the priority list is perfectly set and is always in sync with my needs and desires, that is often not the case. 

Tivo should give me 3 options: cancel current attempted recording, cancel future recording A, or cancel future recording B. I feel like the way it's done now is a relic from the single tuner days and should really be updated already.

My one other issue with tuner management is that Tivo can't record 2 different shows on the same channel and at the same time on one tuner. For instance, on Sunday night you often need to pad recordings due to football overruns. On the Directv dvr, you can pad the 8:00 show by an hour and record the 9:00 show, all on the same tuner. That way if you had another 9:00 recording on a different channel it wouldn't get cancelled.


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## coryb891 (Nov 4, 2005)

NYHeel said:


> While the original poster may not have been very eloquent with the Tivo software issues, there is no doubt that Tivo does not handle conflict resolution well.
> 
> If I want to record a game on tonight and both tuners are occupied concurrently at some point during the game, Tivo just gives you the option of canceling the attempted recording or canceling the recording that's lower on the priority list. While I know that in a perfect world the priority list is perfectly set and is always in sync with my needs and desires, that is often not the case.
> 
> ...


Hi, I am technically oriented, but maybe not so eloquent. 

Anyways, if Tivo based its prompts on priority, it would have cancelled its suggestion (the basketball game from 6:00-8:30) instead of prompting me to cancel the season pass recording (7:00-8:00).

Putting that issue aside, you and others have discussed how Tivo could go about prompting the viewer to resolve the conflict. One problem is that the conflict can get complicated. For instance, I might be recording two programs from 6:00-7:00 (call them 'Program A' and 'Program B', and two more from 7:00-8:00 ('Program C' and 'Program D'). Then I request to record a program from 6:00-8:00 ('Program E'). How should it resolve this? I would propose that it give a prompt such as the following:

The program you have selected to record conflicts with other scheduled recordings. Please select which of the following recordings to cancel:

[ ] Program A
[ ] Program B
[ ] Program C
[ ] Program D
[ ] Do not change the existing schedule, cancel the new recording.

After selecting one program, the list could update. For instance, if we select to cancel 'Program A', then 'Program B' no longer needs to be cancelled, and the list would become:

[x] Program A
[ ] Program C
[ ] Program D
[ ] Do not change the existing schedule, cancel the new recording.

Then after selecting C or D, it would show a summary with a prompt for confirmation. Or, in another approach, it could prompt in series, such as first prompting to cancel A or B and then asking about C or D second. What do you think?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

coryb891 said:


> Hi, I am technically oriented, but maybe not so eloquent.
> 
> Anyways, if Tivo based its prompts on priority, it would have cancelled its suggestion (the basketball game from 6:00-8:30) instead of prompting me to cancel the season pass recording (7:00-8:00).
> 
> ...


FYI- suggestions will NEVER bump a show you told it to record (either explicitly or in a season pass or wishlist.)

What may have happened is the show you "added" (lets call it SHOW C) was from 7-9 and there was a show that tivo planned to record from 8:30 to 9 (SHOW B). (and something with a higher priority- SHOW A- was already in the 8:30 to 9 slot). So tivo jettisoned the show B that it asked you about.

That still left it free to record what it wanted up till 8:30 so it found a suggestion that would fit and tried to get that.

Anyway- agreed- the conflict handling stinks. What if the show you had with a higher priority (SHOW A in the example above) had a later showing that it could record and still get SHOW B done too? One would have no clue- there's no way to tell even though the software should figure that out for us.

The poster talking about recording overlaps using the same tuner also brings up a GREAT point. Never mind bumping stuff because you pad football or baseball an hour or 90 minutes- its more maddening (to me) when you clip or miss a recording because you extend it a few minutes so as not to miss the last bit of a show

Also have to say- never mind 2 tuners. The same messes (although WAY MORE COMPLEX) happen on the 4 tuner elite box. Trying to figure out what that thing is going to do in advance requires graduate level calculus. Hopefully the upcoming spring update has some better conflict management to help all these messes.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

NGeorge said:


> Can anyone explain to me what the "upstream" information and the upstream IP address in the CableCard information screens is all about? I just happened to notice a reference to an upstream IP when configuring my Motorola CableCards on Comcast (it showed "inactive" and all 0's)...
> 
> Is it that the Tivos physically *cant* send signals upstream--or is it that they only support On Demand in a format for CableCards that pretty much all providers except RCN and a few tiny systems do not support?
> 
> ...


cablecards CAN be 2-way. There's nothing inherently one way about them. IN fact every box currently deployed by the big cable companies have cablecards preinstalled (usually behind a cover) and they work just fine with 2-way to order people PPV or VOD.

The issue is that cable never made a universal 2-way protocol (that 3rd parties would realistically use) that tivo could build one box to comply with- so tivo didn't bother to include a DOCSIS modem in the thing that would be used to speak "Upstream" - hence you get an IP in that screen of 0.0.0.0

the work around is that tivo is working with individual providers to use the the ethernet connection on the box and the open internet to do the upstream communication. Currently they have it working with RCN (if I'm following...) and have it beta testing with comcast currently with broad comcast deployment planned for later this year.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Grakthis said:


> I agree on the OP point. I had a "clipping situation" where my wifes show ran till 10:05, I had a show that started at 10 and I wanted to record something that started at 10. It wanted to clip my wifes show that started at 10:05 and remove the last 5 minutes. My show was one that ran at 10 and 1AM! What I WANTED to do was cancel the recording of my 10 o'clock show and record the other show instead, but to do that, I had to manually pull up my season pass, tell it to record the 1AM showing (which, to TiVo's credit, did automatically cancel the 10 o'clock showing) then schedule my other show.


I'm not sure exactly what you're complaining about. Is tivo perfect? No, and I actually complain about a lot of things about it.

But this issue is simple.

I presume you mean you saw the clipping issue in the To Do list.

So, go into the To Do list entry at 10pm, View Upcoming Episodes, choose the 1 AM rerun, tell it to record.. then you can left arrow your way back "out" to the To Do list.

That *sounds* like a lot of steps, but when you're actually doing it, it's not as complicated as it sounds.

UNFORTUNATELY (and yes, I consider _THIS_ part a really bad bug), the Tivo will NOT figure out that the clipping is no longer needed. (Definitely not quickly. If you do the changes over a day in advance, it MIGHT, but I'm not sure). So you'll ALSO have to go into the other episode and tell it to start recording ON TIME. THIS part I consider a pain..

The main issue though is (1) you turned clipping on, and (2) the Tivo is following your wishes by obeying your own season pass ordering.

I'm not trying to blame you, just that really, it can't really do better. (It's basically an unsolvable problem to try to fit all possible recordings in - plus, if it thinks it can record 4 episodes of shows, but you missed the ONE show you really cared about, you'd be complaining about that -- I SURE WOULD.. So it uses YOUR ORDERED LIST to decide what to record.)


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I never really understood using the clipping option. I'd rather not watch the show than watch it and miss several minutes of it that might be critical to the plot. WHich is why I've always had multiple TiVos so I had enough tuners available to record the entirety of the shows I want to watch.

Although now it's much easier to catch a show by other means.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> I never really understood using the clipping option. I'd rather not watch the show than watch it and miss several minutes of it that might be critical to the plot. WHich is why I've always had multiple TiVos so I had enough tuners available to record the entirety of the shows I want to watch.
> 
> Although now it's much easier to catch a show by other means.


You can always turn the clipping option OFF.

I actually leave clipping on. But only to discover which shows wouldn't have recorded at all. Twice a week, I look at the To-Do list, primarily to make sure all my shows are recording, but I also look for shows being clipped. Usually a result of a one minute overlap. Then I will take steps to re-arrange my recordings so as to eliminate the clipping (like you, I hate missing even a minute or two of a show). I can usually do this by moving a cable show to a later airing.

This is much less a problem with my Elite, that it was with my S3. But Tuesdays at 9pmC is still a traffic jam.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

astrohip said:


> You can always turn the clipping option OFF.
> 
> I actually leave clipping on. But only to discover which shows wouldn't have recorded at all. Twice a week, I look at the To-Do list, primarily to make sure all my shows are recording, but I also look for shows being clipped. Usually a result of a one minute overlap. Then I will take steps to re-arrange my recordings so as to eliminate the clipping (like you, I hate missing even a minute or two of a show). I can usually do this by moving a cable show to a later airing.
> 
> This is much less a problem with my Elite, that it was with my S3. But Tuesdays at 9pmC is still a traffic jam.


Yes I've always left the clipping option off.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

astrohip said:


> You can always turn the clipping option OFF.
> 
> I actually leave clipping on. But only to discover which shows wouldn't have recorded at all.


That's VERY close to what I do. I let the later time slot late night talk shows get clipped (i.e. Letteman & Leno have padding, to make sure I get the end of the show which is usually the same segment as the musical guest). There are a FEW other shows I will sometimes let get clipped (can't think of examples at the moment).

Generally, if I see that something will be clipped, then I MANUALLY view upcoming episodes and find another time slot or record on another device.. or once in a rare while cancel it (if I need something else padded, I don't want a clipped recording).

When I had 4 tuners, with SPs apportioned on each device, I did a bit less To Do list checking, but I check it most days before I go to work, though that's just a skim to see that nothing in primetime is clipped.


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## NGeorge (Feb 27, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> cablecards CAN be 2-way. There's nothing inherently one way about them. IN fact every box currently deployed by the big cable companies have cablecards preinstalled (usually behind a cover) and they work just fine with 2-way to order people PPV or VOD.
> 
> The issue is that cable never made a universal 2-way protocol (that 3rd parties would realistically use) that tivo could build one box to comply with- so tivo didn't bother to include a DOCSIS modem in the thing that would be used to speak "Upstream" - hence you get an IP in that screen of 0.0.0.0
> 
> the work around is that tivo is working with individual providers to use the the ethernet connection on the box and the open internet to do the upstream communication. Currently they have it working with RCN (if I'm following...) and have it beta testing with comcast currently with broad comcast deployment planned for later this year.


So basically it's on Tivo for leaving out the ability to do On Demand. Had they included a DOCSIS modem (which can't be that expensive with most of the parts required already installed) they would have had 2 way communication--and rather than have to write workarounds using the Ethernet connection could have essentially had "plugins" for the various cable systems for On Demand.

Also I don't think it would be THAT many different systems they would have to write for--I assume that those systems are probably pretty standard for Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, Cisco/NDS and Pace systems. That's really the only 4 CableCard providers correct?

As for Comcast, I can't wait til they come out with their On Demand solution... Especially if it is truly coming to the retail units as they say, and I can access Comcast On Demand *and* my other video providers. 
--Nat


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

If the TiVo's lack of a modem is the reason for the crappy response of On Demand kluges, then they have to implement one in the next model to be competative. I mean, the way I'm understanding it is that it sends a "give me a OD movie" to the cableco via internet. And the cableco must then say "tune into X Hz". And somewhere in between a server converts the DOCSIS part from the cableco into some random frequency for the TiVo. I guess it makes sense how this would introduce delays.

All other DVR's already handle data in it's raw form and even the plain controls are more responsive from what I remeber. So it would be more similar to watching a Youtube/Netflix video.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

NGeorge said:


> So basically it's on Tivo for leaving out the ability to do On Demand. Had they included a DOCSIS modem (which can't be that expensive with most of the parts required already installed) they would have had 2 way communication--and rather than have to write workarounds using the Ethernet connection could have essentially had "plugins" for the various cable systems for On Demand.
> 
> .......


having a DOCSIS modem wouldn't do me any good. FiOS doesn't use them. It would have just been an added cost in the TiVo to make the price higher.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

NGeorge said:


> So basically it's on Tivo for leaving out the ability to do On Demand. Had they included a DOCSIS modem (which can't be that expensive with most of the parts required already installed) they would have had 2 way communication--and rather than have to write workarounds using the Ethernet connection could have essentially had "plugins" for the various cable systems for On Demand.
> 
> Also I don't think it would be THAT many different systems they would have to write for--I assume that those systems are probably pretty standard for Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, Cisco/NDS and Pace systems. That's really the only 4 CableCard providers correct?
> 
> ...


it's over my head- but i believe tivo would need to add a docsis modem and STILL have to "write a thousand workarounds" for each individual head end since there isn't a standard for how to talk back to the head ends. Since they would need to make a custom solution for each cable providers particular head ends anyway doing it via built in modem or over public internet probably doesn't matter.

Again - way over my head- but i think actually by doing it over public IP they have less complexity and so much simplier for tivo and also for the end users and the cable companies to deploy at any given head end. Tivo has to make one system to talk to the specific cable company (i suppose through seachange's servers?) and then the cable company figures out how to translate that to the particular set up of their head ends.

So for example rather than tivo needed to figure out what the particulars are of each local system (moto or cisco head end, which of the different brands of cable cards, which firmware versions on the cards, what software version on the headends, which SDV server, which VOD server, umpteen different configuration settings, etc) they just know to interface with some central repository of comcast who then translates to all those different combinations.

If there were just one or two (or four) combinations - they probably could have pursued a tuning adapter type usb dongle. But i am under the impression there's tons more variables and configurations then that would realistically allow. (again all being over my head....). Using comcast as the example, and keeping in mind the vast majority of cable card installs are moto or cisco that means there's just 2 ways to set up a cable card- yet you can read the comcast cablecard thread and see how that's still, today, a crapshoot if they can figure out how to configure the cards right. (which are what- at least 6, possible 8 or maybe even 10 years old at the moment....)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> having a DOCSIS modem wouldn't do me any good. FiOS doesn't use them. It would have just been an added cost in the TiVo to make the price higher.


and anyone who uses a tivo for OTA only would be paying too.

there's tradeoffs- all these things costs pennies probably but when tivo strives to sell hundreds of thousands of units pennies per unit add up quickly when there's 10-20 choices to make.

Myself, I'd rather they included a bluetooth chip so they are all slider remote ready- then the elite they could have charged me $10 more and given me the slider included...

Other's would pick a wireless N chip for a couple bucks.

Tivo tossed in MOCA in the elite's while some may never use it (probably at the request of their cable partners who will be deploying the private label versions).

If they could have tossed in a docsis modem for 50 cents AND add in a couple different methods to the software to go 2-way then I would think that would have been a no brainer- but again seems there's way more then a few different methods to go 2-way


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I still don't really get the title of this thread. What does any of this have to do with "single-tuner"-ness?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

mattack said:


> I still don't really get the title of this thread. What does any of this have to do with "single-tuner"-ness?


Look at the OP's history. The original topic wasn't going to go anywhere so the thread became free-form art.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

MichaelK said:


> it's over my head- but i believe tivo would need to add a docsis modem and STILL have to "write a thousand workarounds" for each individual head end since there isn't a standard for how to talk back to the head ends. Since they would need to make a custom solution for each cable providers particular head ends anyway doing it via built in modem or over public internet probably doesn't matter.
> 
> Again - way over my head- but i think actually by doing it over public IP they have less complexity and so much simplier for tivo and also for the end users and the cable companies to deploy at any given head end. Tivo has to make one system to talk to the specific cable company (i suppose through seachange's servers?) and then the cable company figures out how to translate that to the particular set up of their head ends.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that TiVo isn't a basement shop. Other manufacturers of DVR's thought of "having to program for different cable cos" too.

I'm pretty sure the CableCard doesn't really have much to do with OnDemand technology itself, rather it's just like a "key" to unlock encrypted channels without specialized built-in hardware. This is actually what allows 3rd party manufacturers to make generic cable boxes independent of specific cable cos. I guess to make an analogy, it's sort of like how if you telecomute the IT department may give you a little time-synced number generator to carry arround. Then when you log into the corporate servers, you enter that + your pin/user ID, etc. As a matter of fact you often need a rented cable-box to get On Demand, because they need to install their version of firmware. So that's why TV built-in CableCard slots had their limits and not as many ppl used them.

But I suppose if TiVo has their majority of market as OTA or something, then perhaps they DID decide to reduce costs...while the other DVR's don't even have OTA customers in some cases (because of patents or branding or otherwise). So other DVR's had to put in the DOCSIS modem for THEIR customer base...i.e. cable cos. But if TiVo wants to follow suit without relying on just RCN and Comcast to "trial" it...presumably for the TiVo branding...they would prolly have to include a DOCSIS modem or implement some better internet solution than what they have now.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Hey. Come to think of it. This "Ethernet assisted On Demand" method would actually work for "Smart TVs" and other CableCard ready devices. If they make a standard, then pretty much all future TV's without a "DOCSIS modem" can be "Cable On Demand Ready" and that would help them compete with Netflix and friends.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

mattack said:


> I'm not sure exactly what you're complaining about. Is tivo perfect? No, and I actually complain about a lot of things about it.
> 
> But this issue is simple.
> 
> ...


You clearly didn't read my post or you quoted the wrong post because your comments are completely unrelated to what I said.

No, I did not see it in the ToDo list. I was adding a new recording. It poped up the standard message to tell me it couldn't record that without clipping and here is what it would clip. I didn't want that behavior. There were other methods to resolve the situation. For example, it could clip the new show (start it late) instead. That was not presented as an option. It also could record show B later and thereby resolve the conflict. That was not presented as an option.

Yes, I can manually resolve this. That's why it's a minor issue.

But the best solution would be for the TiVo to determine that it could resolve the conflict in other ways and to allow me to select from a list of options instead of just giving me one option to accept or decline.

Next time you think about responding to me, please read my post first and save us both some typing.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

rasmasyean said:


> If the TiVo's lack of a modem is the reason for the crappy response of On Demand kluges, then they have to implement one in the next model to be competative. I mean, the way I'm understanding it is that it sends a "give me a OD movie" to the cableco via internet. And the cableco must then say "tune into X Hz". And somewhere in between a server converts the DOCSIS part from the cableco into some random frequency for the TiVo. I guess it makes sense how this would introduce delays.
> 
> All other DVR's already handle data in it's raw form and even the plain controls are more responsive from what I remeber. So it would be more similar to watching a Youtube/Netflix video.


So, if TiVo wanted to include a DOCSIS modem and do on-demand it would require allowing the CableCo's interface to run on their box as the interface to the OnDemand system. There is no open standard for these communications and the cable companies have no incentive to band together and create one.

It's not a simple "plugin" for each cable company because A) The cable companies have no incentive to allow TiVo to have an API to their OnDemand programming and B) who even says they have an API that other applications can use? It could just be custom TCP of some kind. C) How can you possibly expect TiVo to write an interface to the OnDemand services of 20+ companies? D) Who do you call if your OnDemand is having issues? It's a support nightmare.

TiVo's end around for this is to support internet streaming services like Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc.

If only HBO would get real with their HBO2GO service and TiVo could interface with it, then we'd pretty much have closed the loop.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> I never really understood using the clipping option. I'd rather not watch the show than watch it and miss several minutes of it that might be critical to the plot. WHich is why I've always had multiple TiVos so I had enough tuners available to record the entirety of the shows I want to watch.
> 
> Although now it's much easier to catch a show by other means.


Well, consider something like a sporting event where missing a few minutes is no big deal. Or a live event like an awards show. Or something like the Daily show or the news.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> Well, consider something like a sporting event where missing a few minutes is no big deal. Or a live event like an awards show. Or something like the Daily show or the news.


That is certainly subjective. There are plenty of people who would not want to miss a second of any of those types of shows. Although out of those three, if I had a choice I would rather miss part of the sporting event than an awards show or the Daily show or the news.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

rasmasyean said:


> Keep in mind that TiVo isn't a basemet shop....


Exactly. If it was just a 45cent chip and some simplistic+ programming it woukd bbe ddone.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Grakthis said:


> But the best solution would be for the TiVo to determine that it could resolve the conflict in other ways and to allow me to select from a list of options instead of just giving me one option to accept or decline.
> 
> Next time you think about responding to me, please read my post first and save us both some typing.


I did read your post and responded to it. I explained exactly how Tivo IS doing what you told it to do, and it's essentially an unsolvable problem to try to find all other alternatives. You have TOLD the Tivo what to record, with the sorted Season Pass list. So it pays attention that to determine what to record.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

mattack said:


> I did read your post and responded to it. I explained exactly how Tivo IS doing what you told it to do, and it's essentially an unsolvable problem to try to find all other alternatives. ....


Thought better of injecting my 2 cents into your disagreement but for whatever reason i can't help myself ;-) sorry-

I'm not a mathematician but my gut is it's far from unsolvable with a modern CPU and the proper algorithms. If my cell phone can play chess and calculate out every possibility for the next umpteeen moves seems a properly programmed tivo should at least be able to try a few levels deep of possibilities.

any mathematicians in the group that want to have a whack at it?

Now- besides the unsolvable problem of it- there might be (probably are?) usability reasons they choose not to calculate all the options. Tivo's typical Keep It Simple Stupid thinking might preclude does something that complex which could foul things up on rare occasion, or that could potentially give you a list of 30 options to pick from.

Personally I do wish it would at least give a small handful of options, but I'm not holding my breath. I'd actually much rather it sees there's a conflict and find another tivo in the house with a free tuner.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

mattack said:


> I did read your post and responded to it. I explained exactly how Tivo IS doing what you told it to do, and it's essentially an unsolvable problem to try to find all other alternatives. You have TOLD the Tivo what to record, with the sorted Season Pass list. So it pays attention that to determine what to record.


No. You clearly didn't read what I said. Because you are still talking about a sorted season pass list. There is absolutely no relevance to the season pass list for this discussion. These could be three manual recordings for all the relevance to the issue. The season pass list does not enter into this discussion. Neither does the ToDo list, which I never even looked at before the problem arose.

It is not an unsolvable problem. The solution is simple. When I go to add a recording and the TiVo sees that there is a conflict with that recording it should list the ways it can resolve that conflict and allow me to choose which way I would like to resolve the conflict.

For example, if I have 2 shows already set to record. Show A runs from 7-8:05, show B runs from 8-8:30. I want to record show C that runs from 8-9. The Tivo would present me a menu that says:

1) Clip show A (loses the last 5 minutes of show A)
2) Clip show B (loses the first 5 minutes of show B)
3) Clip show C (loses the first 5 minutes of show C)
4) Cancel Show A.
5) Cancel Show B.
6) Cancel Show C.

Yes, that's a lot of choices. But this is a crazy corner case that wouldn't come up very often, but when it did come up, I could resolve it properly instead of having to hit cancel, manually cancel recording B, then go back in and record show C. Because the only options the TiVo ACTUALLY gave me, were:

1) Clip Show A.
2) Cancel Show C.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

I am trying to think of scenarios that could give you more than 6 menu options and the only one I can think of involves shows that are 15 minutes long stacked on top of each other.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> I am trying to think of scenarios that could give you more than 6 menu options and the only one I can think of involves shows that are 15 minutes long stacked on top of each other.


It gets more complicated because TiVo now sells 4 tuner dvrs. They aren't going to write different software for 2 tuner and 4 tuner and whatever sized boxes they make next. The 4 tuner box would have 10 choices.

Beyond that I thunk the point was why should TiVo stop at just clipping situations? And if its giving options why stopped at "cancel show c" ? Why not say "record show c at 2am" and then you get into "record show c at 2am by cancelling show d" and then you get to "record show c aat 2am and. Move show d to 6am and bump show e" where do they stop if they start listing options?

As above the 4 tuner elite is going to have 10 options right off the bat.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I think with 4 tuners in the Elite, you halve your chances of even having a conflict in the first place, and on the rare occasion where there is a conflict, it would probably only be between 2 shows.
You would only need the same number of options.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> It gets more complicated because TiVo now sells 4 tuner dvrs. They aren't going to write different software for 2 tuner and 4 tuner and whatever sized boxes they make next. The 4 tuner box would have 10 choices.
> 
> Beyond that I thunk the point was why should TiVo stop at just clipping situations? And if its giving options why stopped at "cancel show c" ? Why not say "record show c at 2am" and then you get into "record show c at 2am by cancelling show d" and then you get to "record show c aat 2am and. Move show d to 6am and bump show e" where do they stop if they start listing options?
> 
> As above the 4 tuner elite is going to have 10 options right off the bat.


If you cancel a season pass recording, it automatically attempts to find a later one. Beyond that, you do have to draw the line somewhere and you stop it at resolving the conflict. Re-recording the show later is the users responsibility.

This is not a slippery slope where you must put every option imaginable or put only one. There is a happy middle ground where you put the most useful options.

If you have 4 tuners and you are using all 4 to record stuff at the same time then frankly the TiVo should tell you to stop watching so much TV. But in that scenario, yeah, you give them 10 options. It's such a corner case, I don't see that as being an issue.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

steve614 said:


> I think with 4 tuners in the Elite, you halve your chances of even having a conflict in the first place, and on the rare occasion where there is a conflict, it would probably only be between 2 shows.
> You would only need the same number of options.


And are you going to answer the posts here from people when there ARE three or four shows conflicting?

TiVo is never going to just ignore the 3rdand 4th tuners in anything the do.

Presumably at some point they may build a box with 5 or 6 tuners. They aren't going to write code that will make a mess there either. (Even if it will be extremely rare)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Wanted to check the theory that multiple shows won't typically start at once on an elite. Hit the app and i only have to scroll to 8pm tomorrow to get to my first point where %ll 4 tuners start at the same time. If i went to Futz with a long running 7:30 show I'd get the 10 menu options.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> Wanted to check the theory that multiple shows won't typically start at once on an elite. Hit the app and i only have to scroll to 8pm tomorrow to get to my first point where %ll 4 tuners start at the same time. If i went to Futz with a long running 7:30 show I'd get the 10 menu options.


This blows my mind. It's incredibly rare that I have 2 shows recording at the same time.

Anyways, the 10 menu option is still better than the 2 menu option.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> This blows my mind. It's incredibly rare that I have 2 shows recording at the same time.
> 
> Anyways, the 10 menu option is still better than the 2 menu option.


I have 4 shows recording concurrently several times a week. It used to happen even more often before I moved a bunch of SPs to my two tuner Premieres.
But either way I've never had any issues with conflicts. There are only a small number of shows that I even need to pad. 95% of the shows I record start and end at the correct times.


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## alarson83 (Oct 27, 2009)

One thing i hate is the lack of an option to choose which tuner to lose to an upcoming recording. 

If i'm watching something, and there's a suggested recording being recorded, and a show i want to record comes up, my only options become:

1. Switch channel to the show i want recorded (lose the show i'm watching -and its buffer, potentially)
2. Cancel recording of show i explicitly set to be recorded. 

Nowhere is the option i want most of the time:
3. Cancel tivo suggestion () on other tuner.

I suppose i could turn off suggestions, but i often find it finds stuff i like to casually watch when i'm bored and nothing's on.


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## Ttt0 (Feb 20, 2012)

Series3Sub said:


> Well, I too have similar frustrations about the software and how cumbersome it is to save what is already in my delayed live viewing so that the TiVo can change channels to start a timer recording-the other tuner is already in use for a recording or will be at the same time.
> 
> While TiVo is still a good DVR, some of the finer points on DVR software should have been improved by TiVo, but that may have taken them to a place where they would be infringing on patents. Here is what I like about the Dish DVR's that I wish TiVo could have something similar:
> 
> ...


 Hi ,thank you for your info ,it is very helpful for me ,Cheers!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

alarson83 said:


> One thing i hate is the lack of an option to choose which tuner to lose to an upcoming recording.
> 
> If i'm watching something, and there's a suggested recording being recorded, and a show i want to record comes up, my only options become:
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure - you dont need to tell it to cancel the suggestion on the other tuner. I think you just tell it 'no you can't change the channel' and it will stop the suggestion and record what you have scheduled.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> This blows my mind. It's incredibly rare that I have 2 shows recording at the same time.
> 
> Anyways, the 10 menu option is still better than the 2 menu option.


It's like a baseball field- if you built it (more tuners) they (recordings) will come.

there's 5 of us in my family of varying ages. Besides the prime time stuff that is typically for grownups (but some family like American Idol or the like), there's probably 30 season passes in my house for stuff on discovery/history/nat geo/etc - those shows on cable play over and over all the time. Then we also probably ahve another 30 or so for kids stuff on nick/disney/toon/disney xd/etc that happen all day and bump up into prime time sometimes.

there's a reason why Tivo bothered to make a four tuner box.

The example i gave with the 4 tuners in play had 3 broadcast network shows and then "nature" which repeats at different times of the day. If I only had 2 (or 3) tuners it would just have recorded at 3am or something. It's lower on my priority list because of that and so if i went to record something then Tivo would be logical and ask if i want to nuke that and then it should figure out to get that later. (if It wasn't nature it could have been something like icarly or who knows what that might be on at 8pm on disney....)

To me I'd prefer it would be invisible to me- I'd prefer that tivo looks at the situation and figures out if i want to record something that it can move "nature" to another slot and all is well and not even quiz me. The problem with that is you start down the road of the 'unsolvable problem' (which as above i dont think is so unsolvable).

Tivo now is doing 4 tuners. Directv has 5 tuner boxes so presumably the hardware is availible that the next generation can have at least 5 tuners. The cablecard spec allows up to 6 tuners so maybe the next generation will have 6. I just dont seem them making different versions of software for different amounts of tuners- they seem to be trying to get their different projects all on the same code base (as they always have done in the past- at least until they abandon a platform)

Those extra tuners will quickly fill in my house with "how it's made" and the like. So a scenario with 12 or 14 menu options isn't crazy. I'd much rather they just do it invisibly in the background and not waste time with the listing options if they dont need to.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

alarson83 said:


> One thing i hate is the lack of an option to choose which tuner to lose to an upcoming recording.
> 
> If i'm watching something, and there's a suggested recording being recorded, and a show i want to record comes up, my only options become:
> 
> ...


if I'm watching something that wasn't peviously recorded, I ALWAYS hit the record button. That way if you are interrupted you will have the content there to watch. Or even if you change the channel by accident, you won't lose your show. Plus you won't have to worry about it trying to change the channel you are on. I've done this for ten years and it avoids alot of possible issues.


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