# Game of Thrones - "A Man Without Honor" - 5/13/12



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Holy crap. I think Theon is trying to rival my hatred of Joffrey. Was that Rickon and Bran hanging???? WTF. Don't look down you little f!ck like you're full of regret. I really hope someone is pulling a fast one.

John Snow is in big trouble. That wildling taunting him about his "bone" was hilarious though. Poor guy. 

Arya is too smart for her own good. I think Tywin is growing much too fond of her for HIS own good. Something has got to go down with that situation soon. 

Jorah is really all that Dany has left. She best be nice to him. That dude from the house of the undead is freaky. And I so wanted that knife to really go through him. 

I cannot believe that Jamie killed that dude. He was practically worshiping him! And for what? He didn't get far. Then his smack talk to Cat was not smart. I know she won't kill him but I bet she puts a hurting on him. 

Oh no. Poor Sansa is capable of giving Joffrey a baby. I pray that doesn't really happen!

Am I supposed to feel bad for Cercei? I could see that Tyrion did. I almost thought for a second he was going to console her. I was waiting on her to be nasty to him for even thinking about it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ok...I'll read the first post after I post this: no way this is Bran and Rickon. Those 2 boys are the kids of the farmer. They are punished for sheltering the Starks during their escape.

Either way, Leon is past redemption.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Am I supposed to feel bad for Cercei? I could see that Tyrion did. I almost thought for a second he was going to console her. I was waiting on her to be nasty to him for even thinking about it.


that was a beautiful awkward scene when they realized they were ALMOST going to be nice to each other or (gasp!) comfort each other with a touch of the hand or even a hug!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> ok...I'll read the first post after I post this: no way this is Bran and Rickon. Those 2 boys are the kids of the farmer. They are punished for sheltering the Starks during their escape.


I think you may be right. I can't see them really killing off the two Stark boys. Or maybe they did. Hell, after seeing Ned beheaded I don't put anything in the "can't happen" category for this show.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I think you may be right. I can't see them really killing off the two Stark boys. Or maybe they did. Hell, after seeing Ned beheaded I don't put anything in the "can't happen" category for this show.


I know, right? I love this show!

But you figure Hodor (Hodor!) and Osha would have been burned as well had they been caught.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I agree there's no way those are the Starks. Theon (Leon?) said something about there's no way he could be respected if he let them get away (or something along those lines). It seems he failed to catch them and faking their death was the only way for the Prince to save face.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

I have a guess about someone. Can someone who's read the books confirm or deny:


Spoiler



John Snow is not Ned Stark's bastard, but Robert Baratheon's.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

There is no need to spoilerize speculation.

I think there is no chance that Snow is NOT Ned's bastard. Given how many bastards Robert had there is no way that Ned would sacrifice his honor to claim/hide one.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

But,


Spoiler



IIRC, the John's mother died, so he needed a home. And did Stark bring him back before his sister died? He might have been honorable enough to take that hit.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

On that particular speculation:


Spoiler



Even by the end of book 6 we don't know. There's some speculation that, though Ned said "you have Stark blood" that he's not the father, but rather that Jon Snow is the son of his sister Lyanna. Who the father is is the subject of much debate and speculation, but we do not yet know.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> I agree there's no way those are the Starks. Theon (Leon?) said something about there's no way he could be respected if he let them get away (or something along those lines). It seems he failed to catch them and faking their death was the only way for the Prince to save face.


yes, Theon 

That is a very interesting idea. The hole in my theory is that it seemed the 2 kids were strung up in Winterfell. If he had not caught them, why would he come back there? this would be a way around this.

The hole in YOUR theory is that it is a short-lived ruse; if true. Also, his actions so far have been more for the benefit of impressing his own men; something that would not go well with this deception.

But I think you are correct. He took the 2 boys from the farmer, burned them beyond recognition, and came back to Winterfell to save face AND put fear into everyone's heart about how ruthless he can be.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh, about defending Winterfell with 500 men against 10,000: I would assume that this only possible if the people of Winterfell (not just the soldiers) help defend (by being loyal, providing food and medicine, not letting people inside from secret entrances or back doors!...etc.).

I don't think Theon can hold Winterfell given how much the people in there hate him; even if the 500 men he asked for arrive (and I doubt they will arrive).


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> yes, Theon
> 
> That is a very interesting idea. The hole in my theory is that it seemed the 2 kids were strung up in Winterfell. If he had not caught them, why would he come back there? this would be a way around this.
> 
> ...


Yes and no matter who they are, they are children and he burned them and strung them up which makes him irredeemable in my eyes. It just makes it all that much worse if they are the Stark boys because he grew up with them like family and with Bran being crippled... just wow. That would just be so unbelievably evil. I'm staying firm on them not being the Stark boys. Where's Osha and Hodar if it's them?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I really loved the appearance of Harrenhall in this episode in the scene where the camera backs up all the way to Tywin. That scene made the place look much more impressive than any of the previous episodes.

I missed where Robb was heading off to. I though Cat said something about accepting or negotiating someone's (or some town's) surrender, but I thought Robb said something about there being casualties. What was going on there.

The conversation with Jamie brought up something I wanted to ask about last season but forgot. He mentioned the name Barristan Selmy (I liked that guy...hope we see more of him eventually, maybe after Joffrey is dead). Do we know anything about the status of his family, like who they are loyal to? Originally I didn't know his last name, and there was a scene where Robert was talking about first kills with Barristan and Jamie, and that Lannister wineboy was there too. Robert made a comment about being surrounded by Lannisters, so I was originally thinking Barristan was a Lannister. Obviously not the case, but I just don't know much about him, other than he was an impressive swordsman, well respected, and I think he was head of the kings guards.

Not sure why Jon ever trusted that girl to lead him somewhere good. She was obviously antagonistic to him, and he had NO idea where he was. I couldn't imagine how letting her lead would have led to a good outcome, and dang it, I was right.

I liked both the scenes with Cercie. For a minute there, I thought Tyrion was about to advocate killing Joffrey to be rid of him. Interesting how Cercie seems to be very conflicted about Joffrey...she loves him as a mother, but realizes what a monster he is. I also liked how she seemed to side with Sansa over her own son...how she shouldn't try to love Joffrey.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> He mentioned the name Barristan Selmy (I liked that guy...hope we see more of him eventually, maybe after Joffrey is dead). Do we know anything about the status of his family, like who they are loyal to?


They definitively never went over his background in the show. I'll spoil just for those who really don't want book backgrounds.


Spoiler



Selmy was a minor house, and Barristan had been a member of the Kingsguard since the Mad King's grandfather (the show rightly simplifies a lot of the lineage of the houses, so not sure what that would even be in the shows timeline, but let's just say, he was in the Kingsguard for a long time.) The Selmy house supported Renly and being from the Stormlands, their liege lords would be the Baratheons.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I cringed when I saw the burned bodies and since I haven't read the book yet I have no idea if those were Rickon and Bran I sure hope not.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Clearly the episode title refers to Theon. 

And do we seriously only have 3 episodes left already? It seems like the season just started!


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## trnsfrguy (Apr 28, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> And do we seriously only have 3 episodes left already? It seems like the season just started!


The promo after this episode said "only 2 episodes left". I thought 3 were left as well.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Three episodes left


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

trnsfrguy said:


> The promo after this episode said "only 2 episodes left". I thought 3 were left as well.


Well in my haste to get my thoughts down before bed, I forgot the episode number. This was 7 so that means we have 3 left. Maybe they said "2 left until the season finale" as I keep seeing the new voiceover trend for shows these days.


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## trnsfrguy (Apr 28, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Well in my haste to get my thoughts down before bed, I forgot the episode number. This was 7 so that means we have 3 left. Maybe they said "2 left until the season finale" as I keep seeing the new voiceover trend for shows these days.


That makes sense. You're probably right.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Clearly the episode title refers to Theon.
> (


Could it be Jamie too?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

goblue97 said:


> Could it be Jamie too?


I wouldn't say that. Jamie, although callus and wrong in killing his cousin, is a captive trying desperately to escape, he's in survival mode. I'll give him a bit more leeway than Theon.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> I wouldn't say that. Jamie, although callus and wrong in killing his cousin...


He's gotta make sure to get rid of rival suitors


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Aniketos said:


> He's gotta make sure to get rid of rival suitors


HA! Yes, he does!


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I wouldn't say that. Jamie, although callus and wrong in killing his cousin, is a captive trying desperately to escape, he's in survival mode. I'll give him a bit more leeway than Theon.


Cat called Jamie without honor. But I agree that he's lower on my "hate em" scale than Theon, who is rapidly nearing Joffrey level there.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Not enough Tyrion and Joffrey didn't get slapped even once ... makes for a rather "mediocre" GoT


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> I wouldn't say that. Jamie, although callus and wrong in killing his cousin, is a captive trying desperately to escape, he's in survival mode. I'll give him a bit more leeway than Theon.


I was thinking more along the lines of being chained to a post covered in your own sh*t.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Shakhari said:


> Not enough Tyrion and Joffrey didn't get slapped even once ... makes for a rather "mediocre" GoT


HA! This! I need way more Tyrion than we got.



goblue97 said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of being chained to a post covered in your own sh*t.


What does that have to do with honor? They could have done that exact same thing to Ned Stark and it wouldn't have made him less honorable.


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## LisaJaco (Jan 31, 2012)

QUESTIONS:

I could have sworn the dire wolf followed John Snow after he left the wall. Where has the dire wolf been all this time? If it was so cold, John Snow could have cut the wolf open like a tauntaun and slept inside it. Then he wouldn't need to be snuggling up next to that grinding woman.

Also:

I could have sworn there were two dire wolves that escaped Winterfell with the Stark boys and that kitchen girl and half-wit. Where were the dire wolves when they were all walking along cracking their walnuts? I would expect the wolves to kill the bloodhounds or protect their masters in some way. 

Did anyone else think about this, or am I having a Vern "Stand By Me" moment, "There's something I didn't understand. Did Lard Ass have to pay to get into the contest?"


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LisaJaco said:


> QUESTIONS:
> 
> I could have sworn the dire wolf followed John Snow after he left the wall. Where has the dire wolf been all this time? If it was so cold, John Snow could have cut the wolf open like a tauntaun and slept inside it. Then he wouldn't need to be snuggling up next to that grinding woman.
> 
> ...


John Snow's wolf wandered off. They even made a point of him trying to call Ghost back and the others saying you can't tame a wild thing. And I certainly hope you're joking about the rest of your comments about Jon and Ghost.

The others DID leave with Summer and Shaggydog. Another reason I do not believe the kids shown burned and hanging are the Stark kids.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

LisaJaco said:


> I could have sworn there were two dire wolves that escaped Winterfell with the Stark boys and that kitchen girl and half-wit. Where were the dire wolves when they were all walking along cracking their walnuts? I would expect the wolves to kill the bloodhounds or protect their masters in some way.


They were walking ahead of the group. When they first cut to the scene of Bran and them, they showed the wolves walking breifly. At first I though they were the hunting/tracking dogs until they showed everyone, then I realized they were the wolves.


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## MegaHertz67 (Apr 18, 2005)

Just my thoughts...

Last week was such an episode of action. Important things seemed to happen constantly and it was exciting to watch. This week was more about moving the pieces around the chess board to set up the action than there was actual action going on. While it was still fascinating to watch...Jamie escaping and the coup at Qarth were kind of minor compared to last episode.

So we have John Snow being taken prisoner, the question about if the Stark boys are really dead, and the dragons might be reunited with Dany. That's a lot left hanging. And with so many plot lines that didn't get mentioned, there is a lot to resolve in only 3 more episodes.

I agree there was not enough Tyrion for my taste. It was interesting that we get verbal confirmation of the incest from both participants this episode, not that there was any doubt. But the speculation of the incest causing mental defects was interesting. You wonder if there was ever speculation about faulty bloodlines being the cause of Tyrion's diminutive stature whispering about the halls of far flung castles.

I see people post on here that they hate Theon as much or more than they hate young King Jeoffrey. Jeoffrey is a spoiled little brat that has gotten his way his entire life because of his family's station and his mother's devotion. His run in with the boy in Winterfell in the first episode or two told you all you needed to know about his character except the depths of his cruelty. He is loathsome and deserving of hatred.

But I actually feel sorry for Theon. Here is a man who has never had anyone teach him how to act like a man. He lived with the Starks as a prisoner during his formative years. And while he must have had some attachments, he surely had deep resentments too. They could never fully embrace him, and he could never fully embrace them. He goes home to his real family, and he is a disappointment to his father and is regarded as less than his sister during an age where that is a great insult for someone who wants to be a warrior. He tries to over compensate and comes off as a boy in a man's clothes trying to make a man's decisions without the ability to understand the consequences of his actions.

Theon and Jeoffrey are both dangerous boys playing grown up games. But Jeoffrey is in a situation of his own making whereas Theon is trying to succeed so he can finally be respected, be cheered, be loved.

But I am not a professional therapist, so all of my speculation is worth what you paid to get it, which was certainly NOT the iron price.  I can't wait for next week.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I thought the men without honor were both Theon and Jaime. But absolutely more Jaime than Theon.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> What does that have to do with honor? They could have done that exact same thing to Ned Stark and it wouldn't have made him less honorable.


Honor, as in dignity. Not necessarily honorable. I believe those are two separate words.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

MegaHertz I get your thoughts and I see why you feel that way. I can totally get behind your point of view on both characters. I just can't make myself feel sorry for Theon. Not anymore. As soon as he actually swung the sword on Rodrik he was, as Rodrik himself said, surely lost. Now he's done this to children. No no no. He's past the point of no return and I cannot wait for Robb to deal him his fate.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

goblue97 said:


> Honor, as in dignity. Not necessarily honorable. I believe those are two separate words.


Okay I gotcha. Could be either then. Let's just agree that the title is about MEN without honor and include them both along with anyone else that is deserving.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Speaking of men without honor, let's not forget what's-his-name from Qarth; the new king!

And there were discussions about Jorah's honor and trust.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

If Theon caught the boys he would have had also had Hodor and Osha there. 

How long were the Wildlings following Snow and the girl? They sure showed up fast.


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## LisaJaco (Jan 31, 2012)

I think Tywin knows the cupbearer is Arya Stark. Why all of the interest in her background?


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## LisaJaco (Jan 31, 2012)

Anubys said:


> And there were discussions about Jorah's honor and trust.


yeah, what was that all about? When that masked lady was painting that person's back, she said something like this will be the last time you dishonor Kaleesi?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

LisaJaco said:


> yeah, what was that all about? When that masked lady was painting that person's back, she said something like this will be the last time you dishonor Kaleesi?


I think it was more like "Will you betray her again?"


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LisaJaco said:


> yeah, what was that all about? When that masked lady was painting that person's back, she said something like this will be the last time you dishonor Kaleesi?


He was a spy for the Spider. he told them that Dany was pregnant; which started the chain of events that led to the attempt on her life. Ned (as well as Jorah's father, Lord Mormont) also consider Jorah a man without honor for trying to sell slaves.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LisaJaco said:


> I think Tywin knows the cupbearer is Arya Stark. Why all of the interest in her background?


Well, he suspects that she's not a commoner. I would not go as far as saying he thinks she's Arya Stark. There are plenty of decent/good houses where she could have been born and raised.

He might also like her because she's smart. He likes smart (and she reminds him of his daughter).

I also speculated that he likes young girls. But that theory is quickly fading in my mind (thank God!).


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## LisaJaco (Jan 31, 2012)

Anubys said:


> He was a spy for the Spider. he told them that Dany was pregnant; which started the chain of events that led to the attempt on her life. Ned (as well as Jorah's father, Lord Mormont) also consider Jorah a man without honor for trying to sell slaves.


Wow, I don't remember any of this happening. I thought he was one of the few good characters. Where was I? I think I really need to learn how to turn on the sub-titles function on my TV.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LisaJaco said:


> Wow, I don't remember any of this happening. I thought he was one of the few good characters. Where was I? I think I really need to learn how to turn on the sub-titles function on my TV.


Well, these are not things that were shown outright. We know the Spider knew of the pregnancy. We have seen Jorah dash to the city on an errand that made no sense other than to let people on King's Landing know. We also know that a pardon was sent to Jorah.

So some facts + circumstantial evidence = what I said.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Well, these are not things that were shown outright. We know the Spider knew of the pregnancy. We have seen Jorah dash to the city on an errand that made no sense other than to let people on King's Landing know. We also know that a pardon was sent to Jorah....


More than that, after Jorah ran off, Arya was hiding in the dark with all the dragon skulls in (under?) King's Landing and saw Illyrio telling Varys (the Spider) that Dany was pregnant. Still circumstantial, but even more damning.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

I disagree, Theon had Ned Stark and his House to teach him how to be a man. I think Ned is the best example of an honorable man that existed in Westeros. Theon is being torn between knowing the right thing to do and proving to his father that he, (Theon) is deserving of his father's respect. The scene where he burned the letter that he wrote to Robb warning of the attacks is the best example of that conflict that the show has presented. Theon KNOWS that what he's doing is wrong, but he also knows that this is what he has to do to get the respect of not only his father, but the Iron Islanders he hopes to rule.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Fleegle said:


> I disagree, Theon had Ned Stark and his House to teach him how to be a man. I think Ned is the best example of an honorable man that existed in Westeros. Theon is being torn between knowing the right thing to do and proving to his father that he, (Theon) is deserving of his father's respect. The scene where he burned the letter that he wrote to Robb warning of the attacks is the best example of that conflict that the show has presented. Theon KNOWS that what he's doing is wrong, but he also knows that this is what he has to do to get the respect of not only his father, but the Iron Islanders he hopes to rule.


THIS. :up:


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## MegaHertz67 (Apr 18, 2005)

Fleegle said:


> I disagree, Theon had Ned Stark and his House to teach him how to be a man. I think Ned is the best example of an honorable man that existed in Westeros. *Theon is being torn between knowing the right thing to do and proving to his father that he, (Theon) is deserving of his father's respect.* The scene where he burned the letter that he wrote to Robb warning of the attacks is the best example of that conflict that the show has presented. Theon KNOWS that what he's doing is wrong, but he also knows that this is what he has to do to get the respect of not only his father, but the Iron Islanders he hopes to rule.


Very well said and spot on to what I was trying to explain. It's the conflict between what he knows is right and how he knows he will be judged that is tearing him apart inside.

Photoshopgrl...when I say I feel sorry for him, there is no affection there or forgiveness for his atrocious acts. I guess I should have used the word "pity."

Again, IMO, Jeoffrey is merely the product of his family and his upbringing, which makes him more understandable and consistent and easier to hate. Whereas Theon is more of a man without a country. He's like a compass that cannot tell what direction is true north, he has no instincts that are sure and without doubt.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Joffrey can't help himself. He's a nutjob through and through. He has no choice in the matter.

Theon _chooses _to be as bad as Joffrey. And the fact that he seems to feel bad about it makes him even worse, because he chokes his conscience down and stays evil.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Joffrey can't help himself. He's a nutjob through and through. He has no choice in the matter.
> 
> Theon _chooses _to be as bad as Joffrey. And the fact that he seems to feel bad about it makes him even worse, because he chokes his conscience down and stays evil.


Yes! Rob you read my mind, even though I didn't realize that's exactly what I was thinking.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ereth said:


> On that particular speculation:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Is book 6 out?



LisaJaco said:


> I think Tywin knows the cupbearer is Arya Stark. Why all of the interest in her background?


He seems convinced that she's not lower class, so I'd expect him to insist on knowing what family she comes from. Unless he thinks she's a daughter of the house she has told him her father served. I like when she asked him how many stone masons he's talked to, "MY Lord." 

You can't really blame Joffrey's cruelty on his upbringing since as Tyrion said, his brother and sister are pretty nice. It was just the flip of the coin on the incest. Tyrion's size has nothing to do with incest, tho. This is the first time there has been any in the Lannister family, I think.

I think Theon's biggest problem is the Iron Islands. It's like that family has no redeeming qualities. They're just a bunch of cold blooded jerks, and he's trying to impress them the only way anyone can.

Why is Rickon always eating walnuts? Does that mean something, or was it just put in there to show how they found them--if they found them at all.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

stellie93 said:


> Tyrion's size has nothing to do with incest, tho. This is the first time there has been any in the Lannister family, I think.


I'm pretty sure the person that mentioned this doesn't think that. I think they were saying that among the other people in Kings Landing now that the incest talk has spread they are probably in some corners even speculating that is the reason for Tyrion's size.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

also on a side note, Game of Thrones is the number one most pirated show on TV.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Well, these are not things that were shown outright. We know the Spider knew of the pregnancy. We have seen Jorah dash to the city on an errand that made no sense other than to let people on King's Landing know. We also know that a pardon was sent to Jorah.
> 
> So some facts + circumstantial evidence = what I said.


Actually, there's more facts than that. At the kings council, Ned asked Varys where he got the information and he said Ser Jorah Mormont.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I kept thinking "Will this broad ever stfu?" during all the Jon Snow scenes. He stupid.

Tywin definitely knows something's up with Arya. I don't think he'll ever cause her harm though. That would be dishonorable.

Theon only rates five Joffreys on the I Really Hate This MF'er scale. I'm still holding out hope that he's somehow operating as a deep cover spy for Team Stark.

The jailer guy was stupid. I guess he never watched any prison movies.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Is book 6 out?
> 
> He seems convinced that she's not lower class, so I'd expect him to insist on knowing what family she comes from. Unless he thinks she's a daughter of the house she has told him her father served. I like when she asked him how many stone masons he's talked to, "MY Lord."


"Watch yourself, girl."  Tywin's cold reading of that line certainly reminded Arya that she is playing a dangerous game.



stellie93 said:


> I think Theon's biggest problem is the Iron Islands. It's like that family has no redeeming qualities. They're just a bunch of cold blooded jerks, and he's trying to impress them the only way anyone can.


To me, the Iron Islands have the feel of a pirate village. The only respect you get is that which you take at the point of the sword and steal from your enemies. Balon Greyjoy is very right in that Theon is more wolf than kraken. Ned Stark taught him his own morals, not House Greyjoy's. For more than half his life, Theon was taught that killing is not a decision to be taken lightly and to respect the people around you, and that is the polar opposite of what his family believes.

Looking at it from that point of view, Theon is more of a tragic figure than a villain. He has done acts that are villainous to use, but a matter of course for his family and his people. "Iron Islanders don't do as they're ordered, then do as they will."



stellie93 said:


> Why is Rickon always eating walnuts? Does that mean something, or was it just put in there to show how they found them--if they found them at all.


I'm pretty sure Rickon's walnut eating with walnuts is being used to explain how they tracked the kids down. I don't know of any symbolism that Walnuts hold either in Westoros or in our world.


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## pudding7 (May 13, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> also on a side note, Game of Thrones is the number one most pirated show on TV.


This is why.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay we have THREE episodes left to satisfy me on many counts. I fear I'm going to have to wait for the distant future for any kind of Joffrey comeuppance but someone that's read the books, please PM me and tell me if Robb gets to deal with Theon and soon!!!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> The jailer guy was stupid. I guess he never watched any prison movies.


Or eavesdropped on prisoners' conversations. "Hmmm, this guy was just bragging about killing a knight in combat when he was a sixteen-year-old squire. I think I'll stand next to him with a sword, not look at him, and see what happens."


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay we have THREE episodes left to satisfy me on many counts. I fear I'm going to have to wait for the distant future for any kind of Joffrey comeuppance but someone that's read the books, please PM me and tell me if Robb gets to deal with Theon and soon!!!


PM sent!

It's really great to see everyone's reactions as to what will happen etc.

As a book reader, I must say there are a few story lines that have veered suddenly and I'm wondering where they're going myself. It's nice to have a little bit of surprise in that matter.

It will be good to see how everything turns out.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay we have THREE episodes left *to satisfy me on many counts.* I fear I'm going to have to wait for the distant future for any kind of Joffrey comeuppance but someone that's read the books, please PM me and tell me if Robb gets to deal with Theon and soon!!!


Giggedy


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

audioscience said:


> PM sent!


Thanks!



Fleegle said:


> Giggedy


Ha! I see what you did there.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> also on a side note, Game of Thrones is the number one most pirated show on TV.


Imagine. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Speaking of men without honor, let's not forget what's-his-name from Qarth; the new king!...


Ducksauce. I think we invented a meme.



> Thanks to the very entertaining weekly "Game of Thrones" reviews by Grantland's Andy Greenwald, I can only think of Daxos as Ducksauce, which is Andy's memorable designation for Qarth's new king.
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maureen-ryan/game-of-thrones-recap_b_1513588.html?ref=tv


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

Anubys said:


> ok...I'll read the first post after I post this: no way this is Bran and Rickon. Those 2 boys are the kids of the farmer. They are punished for sheltering the Starks during their escape.
> 
> Either way, Leon is past redemption.


Yeah I had theon #2 on my beheading list after Joffrey but someone here kind of talked me out of it but no more. I hope he is tortured mercilessly.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> also on a side note, Game of Thrones is the number one most pirated show on TV.


Well I missed season 1 because I did not have hbo but got it just before season 2 and caught up. Well worth the money for this show alone. I have very different views on pirating free tv shows and pay cable shows.

My real question is why so many gingers in this world. I am not complaining but it is a world with a fiery crotch.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

pudding7 said:


> This is why.


Since every episode is available on hbogo and hbo on demand that does not seem like a good reason to pirate the show.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

marksman said:


> Since every episode is available on hbogo and hbo on demand that does not seem like a good reason to pirate the show.


You didn't read the comic carefully enough. The HBO online options can't be used unless you subscribe to cable TV. There's getting to be a sizable number of people these days who do everything online and don't actually subscribe to cable tv. They pay for itunes, netflix, etc for a reason. Then HBO says "we don't actually want your money unless you also give a bunch of money to a cable company, too". That's the point.

Of course, you can wait for it to come out on DVD/BluRay/iTunes, but for season 1 that didn't actually happen until right before season 2. By then, you've missed out on all the conversations online and at the water cooler. And if you're lucky enough, you didn't have Ned's death spoiled for you.

Of course, contrary to what some people would have you think, piracy is not the same as lost sales. There are plenty of people that would "pirate" it so they can watch it as it's released, and then buy it on DVD/Bluray when available.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

The HBO online options can't be used unless you subscribe to *the right* cable TV.

If you don't have one of the specific cable companies that HBO supports, you can't use HBOGO.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I'm pretty sure the person that mentioned this doesn't think that. I think they were saying that among the other people in Kings Landing now that the incest talk has spread they are probably in some corners even speculating that is the reason for Tyrion's size.


They aren't. It's not real.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Tyrion seems to do whatever he wants to do. Tywin seems to do whatever he wants to do and gets to go upside Joffrey's head. Does Joffrey serve as king only at the pleasure of Tywin?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Joff isn't of age yet, so others rule in his place. They can't take away his claim to the throne but it's complicated until he hits 17.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

marksman said:


> My real question is why so many gingers in this world. I am not complaining but it is a world with a fiery crotch.


I have no idea what you just said!



DUDE_NJX said:


> They aren't. It's not real.


Good.



cheesesteak said:


> Tyrion seems to do whatever he wants to do. Tywin seems to do whatever he wants to do and gets to go upside Joffrey's head. Does Joffrey serve as king only at the pleasure of Tywin?


You have that backward. Tyrion is the Joffrey ***** slapper.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> Joff isn't of age yet, so others rule in his place. They can't take away his claim to the throne but it's complicated until he hits 17.


Well, that's the way they'd like it to be, and that's the way they set it up to be. But Joffrey isn't cooperating, and there's nothing they can do about it (or else they'd be doing something about it).

He's ruling on his own.


photoshopgrl said:


> You have that backward. Tyrion is the Joffrey ***** slapper.


But Tywin appointed Tyrion Joffrey *****-slapper, and as much as everybody loathes Tyrion, they're afraid enough of Tywin to let it stand.

There must be a war going on in what passes for Joffrey's mind between the part of him that fears Gramps and the part of him that wants to make Tyrion even shorter.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Of course, you can wait for it to come out on DVD/BluRay/iTunes, but for season 1 that didn't actually happen until right before season 2. By then, you've missed out on all the conversations online and at the water cooler. And if you're lucky enough, you didn't have Ned's death spoiled for you.


I have have Netflix and have often been eagerly anticipating something to come out on DVD only to realize that Netflix won't have it until 30 days after it is released and then it stays on the "extremely long wait" list forever.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

marksman said:


> My real question is why so many gingers in this world. I am not complaining but it is a world with a fiery crotch.





photoshopgrl said:


> I have no idea what you just said!




I read an intersting bit about the woman who plays Melisandre and the merkin that was used for the shadow-birthing scene. Said she had a lot of fun playing with it.

Merkin


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

billypritchard said:


> I read an intersting bit about the woman who plays Melisandre and the merkin that was used for the shadow-birthing scene. Said she had a lot of fun playing with it.
> 
> Merkin


I thought you'd post a link to the interview.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> The HBO online options can't be used unless you subscribe to *the right* cable TV.
> 
> If you don't have one of the specific cable companies that HBO supports, you can't use HBOGO.


Actually, it has to be a cable company that supports HBO Go. Not the other way around.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> The HBO online options can't be used unless you subscribe to *the right* cable TV.
> 
> If you don't have one of the specific cable companies that HBO supports, you can't use HBOGO.


I haven't looked into HGOGO. Does DirecTV qualify as a "cable company"?


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

allan said:


> I haven't looked into HGOGO. Does DirecTV qualify as a "cable company"?


Yes. Just goto hbogo.com fill out the info, select directv and enjoy.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

audioscience said:


> I thought you'd post a link to the interview.


Van Houten Interview


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## trnsfrguy (Apr 28, 2005)

allan said:


> I haven't looked into HGOGO. Does DirecTV qualify as a "cable company"?





Barmat said:


> Yes. Just goto hbogo.com fill out the info, select directv and enjoy.


But, if you're using a Roku device, then the asnwer is NO.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

trnsfrguy said:


> But, if you're using a Roku device, then the asnwer is NO.


If you want to use Airplay or a cable to send the output from your iPad to your TV, then the answer is also NO.

HBOGO sucks. I've got it but never use it. It's a great idea, but the limitations are to ridiculous to ignore.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

trnsfrguy said:


> But, if you're using a Roku device, then the asnwer is NO.


Really? Dish Network works for HBO GO on my Roku. I'm surprised DirecTV wouldn't.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Really? Dish Network works for HBO GO on my Roku. I'm surprised DirecTV wouldn't.


It's up to the cable/satellite provider. DirecTV says no HBO GO on set top boxes for their subscribers. I don't understand why they would think it's a good idea to disallow that when their competitors do allow it, but that's what they do.

Edit: But it looks like they do allow it on Xbox 360. So go figure.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

billypritchard said:


> Van Houten Interview


I'm making a note to ask to be introduced to her if she's ever on set.

Greg


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But Tywin appointed Tyrion Joffrey *****-slapper, and as much as everybody loathes Tyrion, they're afraid enough of Tywin to let it stand.
> 
> There must be a war going on in what passes for Joffrey's mind between the part of him that fears Gramps and the part of him that wants to make Tyrion even shorter.


 I think Joff knows Tywin leads the armies that will secure his thrown. But then again, Joff believes his word is law and he can do whatever he wants. I think Tyrion is safe because (at least in the books) he's helping with the day to day running of the kingdom which bores Joff.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robojerk said:


> I think Joff knows Tywin leads the armies that will secure his thrown. But then again, Joff believes his word is law and he can do whatever he wants. I think Tyrion is safe because (at least in the books) he's helping with the day to day running of the kingdom which bores Joff.


I think more to the point, Joff THINKS his word is law, but doesn't fully BELIEVE it yet. He would gladly shorten Tyrion and have somebody else less slappy do the boring work, but deep down inside he still believes Mommy or Gramps will spank him.

I also think you're giving him WAY too much credit for thinking things through.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

"Did you hold your dagger in my back the whole night?"


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

gchance said:


> I'm making a note to ask to be introduced to her if she's ever on set.
> 
> Greg


Or just watch Black Book instead.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I also think you're giving him WAY too much credit for thinking things through.


True dat!


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> HBOGO sucks. I've got it but never use it. It's a great idea, but the limitations are to ridiculous to ignore.


[We're thread driftin' something serious now...]

We have HBO-GO thru Comcast, and have no problems. My wife uses it all the time on her iPad to watch Sunday night shows when she's not at home. Or it's not Sunday night.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

astrohip said:


> [We're thread driftin' something serious now...]
> 
> We have HBO-GO thru Comcast, and have no problems. My wife uses it all the time on her iPad to watch Sunday night shows when she's not at home. Or it's not Sunday night.


Sure, it works fine as long as you're happy watching it on the iPad screen. I'm not. I should be able to send that via Airplay to my AppleTV. Failing that, I should be able to use my cable to hook the iPad to the TV. Neither work and it's purely an artificial limitation put on the app by HBO.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> Sure, it works fine as long as you're happy watching it on the iPad screen. I'm not. I should be able to send that via Airplay to my AppleTV. Failing that, I should be able to use my cable to hook the iPad to the TV. Neither work and it's purely an artificial limitation put on the app by HBO.


Yep. It's DRM and a political battle. HBO can't let it be viewed on a big screen because the the cablecos don't want an alternative.

HBO GO will only install on Android if the device is not rooted.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Yikes! I'm sorry I started this!

Also there's a great article in Rolling Stone this month. Peter Dinklage is the cover.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

I've got that sitting on my table at home. Need to read it.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

allan said:


> I haven't looked into HGOGO. Does DirecTV qualify as a "cable company"?


Yes


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> You didn't read the comic carefully enough. The HBO online options can't be used unless you subscribe to cable TV. There's getting to be a sizable number of people these days who do everything online and don't actually subscribe to cable tv. They pay for itunes, netflix, etc for a reason. Then HBO says "we don't actually want your money unless you also give a bunch of money to a cable company, too". That's the point.
> 
> Of course, you can wait for it to come out on DVD/BluRay/iTunes, but for season 1 that didn't actually happen until right before season 2. By then, you've missed out on all the conversations online and at the water cooler. And if you're lucky enough, you didn't have Ned's death spoiled for you.
> 
> Of course, contrary to what some people would have you think, piracy is not the same as lost sales. There are plenty of people that would "pirate" it so they can watch it as it's released, and then buy it on DVD/Bluray when available.


I did read it. People want to steal it because they don't want to pay for it I get it. I have a semi hypocritical possession on this issue because networks put their shows out there for free. Hbo never offers their shows for free.

So people are saying that they should not have to pay to see hbo programming? The money that allows them to create the shows? I will be more than happy to watch commercials via alternative means if network shows as that is how they make the money to make their shows.

I realize people are trying to cut the cord but for anyone who is a serious tv watcher it is at least five years and maybe ten years too soon. For casual watchers much easier. There are way too many dependencies and long term deals for any of this to change in the near term. So for now getting hbo is one of the benefits for having cable or satellite. If you don't want to pay for cable or satellite you don't get hbo.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

marksman said:


> I did read it. People want to steal it because they don't want to pay for it I get it.


You don't get it. You read it, but didn't understand it. The character tried 6 different ways to pay for it, but couldn't, because it forced him to pay a cable company. He was willing to pay HBO either directly, or indirectly through iTunes/Netflix/Amazon/Hulu, but couldn't, because HBO was forcing him to buy a cable subscription. He didn't want a cable subscription.

It was a Futurama/Frye "Shut up and take my money!" situation, but through a channel the character didn't want to go through. At some point, the threshold of pain of inconvenience will be crossed that even the most straight laced person will consider pirating.

Similar to this graphic:










--Carlos "I don't pirate....anymore" V.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

marksman said:


> I did read it. People want to steal it because they don't want to pay for it I get it.


No you don't get it. Not even the slightest. If someone WANTS to buy it from itunes but can't, and WANT to pay netflix to see it but can't, and WANT to pay Hulu to see it and can't, and WANT to pay for the DVD/Bluray and can't, and WANT to pay HBO directly and can't, how can you POSSIBLY come to the conclusion that they don't want to pay for it?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

But, of course, the cartoon is hopelessly out of date, because you CAN buy it from Amazon or iTunes now.

What the cartoon is really saying is "I want to watch it RIGHT NOW, and I can't, so I'm going to go pout". Awww. HBO doesn't own you instant gratification if you aren't willing to pay for HBO. 

And if you aren't willing to pay for HBO, then you can still wait until the DVD comes out. That's your choice. The choice shouldn't be "screw HBO, I'm not going to wait, I'll just pirate it instead'. That's the choice of a spoiled brat.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> But, of course, the cartoon is hopelessly out of date, because you CAN buy it from Amazon or iTunes now.
> 
> What the cartoon is really saying is "I want to watch it RIGHT NOW, and I can't, so I'm going to go pout". Awww. HBO doesn't own you instant gratification if you aren't willing to pay for HBO.
> 
> And if you aren't willing to pay for HBO, then you can still wait until the DVD comes out. That's your choice. The choice shouldn't be "screw HBO, I'm not going to wait, I'll just pirate it instead'. That's the choice of a spoiled brat.


It's out of date for season 1. For season 2 it will still likely be accurate for another 10 months or so. And if it weren't for these "spoiled brats", you'd be lucky to even have your itunes songs with DRM. Media companies prove time and again they need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the current century.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Ereth said:


> But, of course, the cartoon is hopelessly out of date, because you CAN buy it from Amazon or iTunes now.
> 
> What the cartoon is really saying is "I want to watch it RIGHT NOW, and I can't, so I'm going to go pout". Awww. HBO doesn't own you instant gratification if you aren't willing to pay for HBO.
> 
> *And if you aren't willing to pay for HBO*, then you can still wait until the DVD comes out. That's your choice. The choice shouldn't be "screw HBO, I'm not going to wait, I'll just pirate it instead'. That's the choice of a spoiled brat.


But this is the ridiculous part of the argument. Many people, including myself, would be willing to pay for HBO, we just don't want to pay extra 50 dollars to a cable/sat company for their basic package just so we can have the privelege of adding on HBO. Especially when GOT is on, I would pay $20 a month to HBOGO to subscribe.

Right now I have Directv and pay $16 a month for HBO/MAX. But I plan on dropping the whole shebang in July, so next year I won't have that option. I assume I'll be pirating it then.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

The product is not sold in stores. Get over it. You are not owed instant gratification. The idea that you should be able to buy something that is sold through exclusive channels without access to the exclusive channel is just silly.

HBO has been payTV since it's inception. In 40 years you haven't been able to get it without being subscribed to a delivery service. You should have grokked that reality by now. It's not "ridiculous". It's reality.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> It's out of date for season 1. For season 2 it will still likely be accurate for another 10 months or so. And if it weren't for these "spoiled brats", you'd be lucky to even have your itunes songs with DRM. Media companies prove time and again they need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the current century.


Please don't pretend that Piracy changed the media companies. That's a ludicrous position. All it does is make them make MORE DRM. I agree that DRM doesn't work, but showing people pirating music didn't make the music industry stop DRM, it made them start suing grandmothers.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Ereth said:


> The product is not sold in stores. Get over it. You are not owed instant gratification. The idea that you should be able to buy something that is sold through exclusive channels without access to the exclusive channel is just silly.
> 
> HBO has been payTV since it's inception. In 40 years you haven't been able to get it without being subscribed to a delivery service. You should have grokked that reality by now. It's not "ridiculous". It's reality.


As someone who grew in farm country, I certainly know about not having access to exclusive channels and delayed gratification. The difference between now and 1980 is that HBO is ignoring other revenue streams to stick with an outdated model. In 1980 there was no other option for them, they needed the cable companies to deliver their content. Now they could find multiple ways to sell their wares.

It would be similar to HBO deciding that only Wal-Mart retails stores could carry their DVD sets. Sure, we could sell them via Amazon or Kmart, but we'll just use Wal-Mart. No Wal-Marts near some consumers? Oh well, we'll just lose those sales.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LK's point, I believe, is that it's piracy that forced the music industry to make music widely available legally in the first place. Napster predated iTunes. As long as HBO's business model depends upon making it difficult for people to get their product, they will be the victims of greater-than-usual piracy.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Wait!

This is a GoT thread, NOT an anti/pro piracy thread. Take it somewhere else, people, puh-lease.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Wait!
> 
> This is a GoT thread, NOT an anti/pro piracy thread. Take it somewhere else, people, puh-lease.


Do you think Jamie Lannister would wait to watch GOT on dvd because he can't get HBO in his cell? No! He would kill a relative, strangle a Karstark, and do whatever else is necessary to see those episodes!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

billypritchard said:


> Do you think Jamie Lannister would wait to watch GOT on dvd because he can't get HBO in his cell? No! He would kill a relative, strangle a Karstark, and do whatever else is necessary to see those episodes!


Hahahaha


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I should mention that I was right about the new "King of Qarth" being in on the dragon theft


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

billypritchard said:


> As someone who grew in farm country, I certainly know about not having access to exclusive channels and delayed gratification. The difference between now and 1980 is that HBO is ignoring other revenue streams to stick with an outdated model. In 1980 there was no other option for them, they needed the cable companies to deliver their content. Now they could find multiple ways to sell their wares.
> 
> It would be similar to HBO deciding that only Wal-Mart retails stores could carry their DVD sets. Sure, we could sell them via Amazon or Kmart, but we'll just use Wal-Mart. No Wal-Marts near some consumers? Oh well, we'll just lose those sales.


The issue is that HBO's fat revenue pipeline is from the $10 or so per month per sub they get from Joe Six Pack HBO subscription on cable/sat TV. They can't chase the fringe tiny revenue stream and risk p'ing off the base "partners." They're probably even handicapped in what they can do by the contracts with the cablecos.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Some people would rather pay the iron price. Just take what you want..


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jaime would pirate the show because he is a man without honor.

(see what I did there? genius, I say!) 

I think Ereth's point is that HBO owns the product and if it doesn't want to sell it to you a certain way (even if they are stupid for doing that), you have no inalienable rights to get the show. You should suck it up and live without it unless you want to be a thief.

argh...I got sucked into the argument!


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

Ereth said:


> HBO has been payTV since it's inception. In 40 years you haven't been able to get it without being subscribed to a delivery service. You should have grokked that reality by now. It's not "ridiculous". It's reality.


It's a ridiculously outdated business model, is what it is. But it will change. I'm just not sure it will change soon.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

markb said:


> It's a ridiculously outdated business model, is what it is. But it will change. I'm just not sure it will change soon.


The cost of changing is to lose the guaranteed revenue from all the cable companies in existence. That's a pretty high cost to change. I'm not convinced they can make that up in streaming, especially with bandwidth caps and net neutrality issues to deal with.

You may not like it, but you probably are thinking in terms of serving one customer (you) not the millions they need to reach to be profitable. You put the needs of the few above the needs of the many.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> You may not like it, but you probably are thinking in terms of serving one customer (you) not the millions they need to reach to be profitable. You put the needs of the few above the needs of the many.


And if they can't come up with a business model that allows all the people who want their product to get their product legitimately, then they will have to live with the consequences of people getting their product illegitimately. The music industry adapted to changing times; we shall see if premium cable is able to adapt.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Robert A Heinlein said:


> There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute nor common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back.


--Carlos V.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Jaime would pirate the show because he is a man without honor.
> 
> (see what I did there? genius, I say!)


And again I have nothing to add to the thread but to laugh. Nicely done. :up:


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Jaime would pirate the show because he is a man without honor.


A Lannister always pays his debts.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And if they can't come up with a business model that allows all the people who want their product to get their product legitimately, then they will have to live with the consequences of people getting their product illegitimately. The music industry adapted to changing times; we shall see if premium cable is able to adapt.


Except, of course, that the MPAA has rather famously said that they absolutely will not go down the path that RIAA did, that they would rather lose money than lose control.

Given that the vast majority of HBO airtime is filled with movies managed by the MPAA, I think the opinion of the MPAA is probably stronger in the minds of their board than the opinion of some people on an Internet forum.

HBO makes Game of Thrones (and Boardwalk Empire and everything else) to get you to subscribe to HBO. It's really that simple. They make their money off subscriptions. Their rates to cable companies are based on the subscription numbers. Adding internet users instead of subscribers only weakens their position in negotiations with the cablecos.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I understand their brilliant, 1990s business model very well.

It ain't the 1990s any more. They will adapt to the new age, or die. Offering a product that people want but either can't get legally or have to buy too many other products to get isn't going to help them survive. And if pay-cable channels remain their only way of getting their product to the consumers, then they will indeed die.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Come on, you guys know better... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468263&highlight=hbogo


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Thought I'd post this here too for those of you who don't care about reading the book or want to know the differences between the show and the books, _Rolling Stone_ has a pretty good breakdown:

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/...etween-game-of-thrones-and-the-books-20120515


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I understand their brilliant, 1990s business model very well.
> 
> It ain't the 1990s any more. They will adapt to the new age, or die. Offering a product that people want but either can't get legally or have to buy too many other products to get isn't going to help them survive. And if pay-cable channels remain their only way of getting their product to the consumers, then they will indeed die.


Interesting position given their profits are only going UP. They were fully 1/4 of their parent Time-Warners profits in 2010, for instance. HBO is making money hand over fist using that "1990s business model".

Cord cutters exist, yes, but they are a tiny majority. The vast majority of american households are wired for cable. Comcast has over 22 million homes (you can't directly map that to people). Time Warner 12 million homes.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

I just wanted to touch on Theon. I LOVE how they ended this episode, on his face, looking downward; you can just see the shame that he's feeling inside as he's torn on what he's done.

Theon *wants* to be his father's son. He *wants* to be a Kraken. He *is* a Kraken. BUT, he's been raised better than that. He was raised by Ned Stark with some semblance of honor and sadly he has to go against the character of his being to become what he wants to be and what he feels he always should have been. A Kraken.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

This thread is going off topic, so I'll put my thoughts about the cable's "outdated business model" in a spoiler so those that just want to read about this episode can just skip my post.


Spoiler



I am completely against the who "ISP/cable lock-in". Not only are we as consumers are totally getting ripped off, the cable companies, if they had it their way, would block services like Hulu, Netflix, iTunes, Amazon VOD, etc. They hate these services and view the money going to these competitors as a huge profit loss. ISP's in America have asked for millions of dollars from Netflix [link], Canadian ISP's tried to impose bandwidth caps which pissed off many people and were forced to undo them. [link]. The truth is the ISP's want to force their customers to only pay for services they offer. The same thing is true with the cellular companies too. Some try to block video chat, Getting Netflix on some devices can be a pain. Verizon still forces their phone to come with vCast (their streaming service). HBO's comments about thinking streaming is a fad is just posturing, they know it's not a fad and the future is indeed streaming. They just don't want to piss off their current partners until the final nail is in the coffin, they have their streaming solution already up, just waiting until it makes sense to go forward.

In truth, many of us customers just want the ISP's to just be dumb pipes, that give us the internet we pay for, and stop trying to lobby/litigate/and manipulate their way in staying relevant. Let alone the fact we in the USA pay 2x as much for internet and get less bandwidth for our money.

There is a war brewing between pirates and the industry. The industry (MPAA, cable co's, studios) want to limit your viewing. They want to block you from viewing media on your big screen tv (75% Hulu is useless to me on my PS3, they block GoogleTV, Netflix gets new content slowly). The only way around all their _artificial limitations_ is piracy.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> If you want to use Airplay or a cable to send the output from your iPad to your TV, then the answer is also NO.
> 
> HBOGO sucks. I've got it but never use it. It's a great idea, but the limitations are to ridiculous to ignore.


Just to clarify I did not need to use hbo go to catch up on season 1 and 2 for Got. I used directv on demand. As far as on demands go I think directv has one of the worst offerings but i was able to get all of season 1 on my dvr.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

robojerk said:


> I think Joff knows Tywin leads the armies that will secure his thrown. But then again, Joff believes his word is law and he can do whatever he wants. I think Tyrion is safe because (at least in the books) he's helping with the day to day running of the kingdom which bores Joff.


I still think even idiot Joffrey sees tywin as the patriarch and leader of his family even if he is king and I don't think he has brewed up enough courage to do something that might truly upset them.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

netringer said:


> Yep. It's DRM and a political battle. HBO can't let it be viewed on a big screen because the the cablecos don't want an alternative.
> 
> HBO GO will only install on Android if the device is not rooted.


I hate to marksman things and do it in duality but we are all adults and can probably handle two separate discussions here. The idea that the cable companies would care does not make sense. Hbogo is set up so the cable or satellite provider gets their full cut. My guess with roku is it is some technical issue with roku and directv and hbo go in terms of authorization.

Directv doesn't care if you watch hbo on roku because you are paying directv for hbo.

As for AirPlay limitations I think it flat out sucks. I would like consumers to be able to gain control of content they pay for and broadcast it to their own tv. I think this is a fight consumers will eventually win. We should be able to pop up anything on our iPad to our apple tv to our tv. Anything less is onerous.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

billypritchard said:


> But this is the ridiculous part of the argument. Many people, including myself, would be willing to pay for HBO, we just don't want to pay extra 50 dollars to a cable/sat company for their basic package just so we can have the privelege of adding on HBO. Especially when GOT is on, I would pay $20 a month to HBOGO to subscribe.
> 
> Right now I have Directv and pay $16 a month for HBO/MAX. But I plan on dropping the whole shebang in July, so next year I won't have that option. I assume I'll be pirating it then.


Hbo is a cable channel though and it is not going to separate anytime soon because it makes too much money from the cable and satellite companies. Why not wait until the DVDs come out and watch it then. I can't believe anyone feels they are owed the right to participate in watercooler talk if they refuse to pay to watch the show when it originally airs.

I would live alacarte channels and hbo alone but people cutting the cord are way ahead of themselves. I stupidly predicted in 1994 in the next ten to fifteen years we would stream ALL tv on demand. Shows would be launched/released in time slots but all viewing would be on demand. We are still way far from that and there are billion dollar corporations fighting for the lives.

I am a serious tv watcher. Cord cutting is not an option for me unless I choose to pirate a ridiculous amount of tv.

If someone can't find any value in basic cable and a few months of hbo a year then certainly waiting for the DVDs makes the most sense to me.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I should mention that I was right about the new "King of Qarth" being in on the dragon theft


Yeah and his creepy undying conspirator is moving up my most wanted to see beheaded list, creeping me out. I want to see those dragons grow up and under the right control do some carnage.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Except, of course, that the MPAA has rather famously said that they absolutely will not go down the path that RIAA did, that they would rather lose money than lose control.
> 
> Given that the vast majority of HBO airtime is filled with movies managed by the MPAA, I think the opinion of the MPAA is probably stronger in the minds of their board than the opinion of some people on an Internet forum.
> 
> HBO makes Game of Thrones (and Boardwalk Empire and everything else) to get you to subscribe to HBO. It's really that simple. They make their money off subscriptions. Their rates to cable companies are based on the subscription numbers. Adding internet users instead of subscribers only weakens their position in negotiations with the cablecos.


Hbo could not possibly get away with stand alone subscriptions right now without a massive revolt of cable cos or a massive reduction in costs for the cable cos. plus all their contracts likely forbid any sort of free standing competition as well. Our current media world is a mess. I didn't even know until six months ago there was an hbo window where hbo had exclusive movie rights and nobody else could show them in any form.

The reality is we are much farther away from where all of us consumers would like to be can even imagine. I really think 10 years is not an unreasonable time frame before it really gets cracked. Heck one of the biggest rumored concerns about an apple television is securing content deals. So much so that a lot of speculation had them getting into bed with cable companies. The reality is the cable and satellite companies are the council of 13 and they control what goes on. None of the content providers can afford losing 90% of their revenue for the next five years just to cut the cord. All we as consumers can hope for are easing of restrictions as each additional contract is renewed. That and real alternative programming channels. Netflix doing original programming is one such way and there are others.

Finally is hbo still owned by time Warner which also happens to be a cable company? This is one issue that so many tv channels are owned by the access providers. They have outsmarted us for now.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

audioscience said:


> I just wanted to touch on Theon. I LOVE how they ended this episode, on his face, looking downward; you can just see the shame that he's feeling inside as he's torn on what he's done.
> 
> Theon wants to be his father's son. He wants to be a Kraken. He is a Kraken. BUT, he's been raised better than that. He was raised by Ned Stark with some semblance of honor and sadly he has to go against the character of his being to become what he wants to be and what he feels he always should have been. A Kraken.


I don't feel like he is feeling shame as much as he is just dealing with being a stupid ahole. He knows what he is doing and he knows better. Like I said before he is proof nature is greater than nurture in this world.

That his simplemindedness caused him to take winterfell when his father and sister marginalized him says all really. That he treated what were essentially his younger brothers like he did pure ahole.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

audioscience said:


> I just wanted to touch on Theon. I LOVE how they ended this episode, on his face, looking downward; you can just see the shame that he's feeling inside as he's torn on what he's done.
> 
> Theon *wants* to be his father's son. He *wants* to be a Kraken. He *is* a Kraken. BUT, he's been raised better than that. He was raised by Ned Stark with some semblance of honor and sadly he has to go against the character of his being to become what he wants to be and what he feels he always should have been. A Kraken.


I agree with your assessment but it doesn't change the fact that I want to see Robb take his head.



marksman said:


> Yeah and his creepy undying conspirator is moving up my most wanted to see beheaded list, creeping me out. I want to see those dragons grow up and under the right control do some carnage.


Yeah he just stood there and told her he didn't take them and then 5 minutes later we find out he's in on it. Bastard. :down:


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## steverm2 (May 10, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> Sure, it works fine as long as you're happy watching it on the iPad screen. I'm not. I should be able to send that via Airplay to my AppleTV. Failing that, I should be able to use my cable to hook the iPad to the TV. Neither work and it's purely an artificial limitation put on the app by HBO.


I know this is real late but instead of airplay you can do whats called"mirroring".google "mirroring apple tv".it works great but you need apple tv 2or 3 and ipad 2 or three.doesnt work with 1st generations.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

robojerk said:


> This thread is going off topic, so I'll put my thoughts about the cable's "outdated business model" in a spoiler so those that just want to read about this episode can just skip my post.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



As consumers, we made our own bed when we started abandoning small ISPs for the ability to have faster internet. When you consider that most of the ISPs are owned by the same companies that supply our TV and that the separation between ISP/TV content providers/TV content producers is now VERY small. We've (or our government) allowed this consolidation of content and distribution. I don't see it getting anything but worse for us consumers as the control over what we see continues to consolidate. The government should act now, but they continue to let it happen. I'm not going to go into the politics of money that has allowed this to happen, but you can read between the lines. In the end, we'll get to pay more for less content.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> As consumers, we made our own bed when we started abandoning small ISPs for the ability to have faster internet. When you consider that most of the ISPs are owned by the same companies that supply our TV and that the separation between ISP/TV content providers/TV content producers is now VERY small. We've (or our government) allowed this consolidation of content and distribution. I don't see it getting anything but worse for us consumers as the control over what we see continues to consolidate. The government should act now, but they continue to let it happen. I'm not going to go into the politics of money that has allowed this to happen, but you can read between the lines. In the end, we'll get to pay more for less content.


Why don't you guys start using the HBO Go thread? 

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468263&highlight=hbogo


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## steverm2 (May 10, 2005)

Sheesh!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

marksman said:


> Yeah and his creepy undying conspirator is moving up my most wanted to see beheaded list, creeping me out. I want to see those dragons grow up and under the right control do some carnage.


Not to mention that Ducksauce arranged to kill off his own house staff, and then tells Dany he's embarrased because he took on the responsibility to protect her.

I say his vault is empty.

Then Dany goes before the council and screams that she wants her dragons back, _not_ that her entire entourage was murdered. She only has Jorah and she tells him to back off because he's getting "too familiar."

----

"It doesn't have teeth."


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

netringer said:


> She only has Jorah and she tells him to back off because he's getting "too familiar."


If she was smart she'd embrace Jorah. I think at this moment he is the only person in the universe she can trust.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> If she was smart she'd embrace Jorah. I think at this moment he is the only person in the universe she can trust.


Can she? He's already betrayed her once, though I don't think she knows that.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

markb said:


> Can she? He's already betrayed her once, though I don't think she knows that.


I don't think she does either. And that was before he fell for her. I've noticed a very strong theme on this show. A man (or woman) in love with do anything for that person... and I mean *anything.*


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

markb said:


> Can she? He's already betrayed her once, though I don't think she knows that.


He betrayed her (or started along that path) before he knew her. I think he's 100% committed to her at this point, as evidenced by his conversation with the masked woman.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> Not to mention that Ducksauce arranged to kill off his own house staff, and then tells Dany he's embarrased because he took on the responsibility to protect her.
> 
> I say his vault is empty.


You know, as he was first showing Dany the vault, I was thinking that he didn't have a key to the vault. He mentioned about bringing in lockpickers or something like that and nobody could get in it. I was thinking that the vault was impervious to entry and he wanted dragon fire to melt it open. Then he mentioned the key and I figured I was wrong. Perhaps not.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

There's no way it's the Stark kids, if it were the Stark kids, they wouldn't have been burnt beyond recognition.


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## LisaJaco (Jan 31, 2012)

Who is duck sauce?


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Xaro Xhoan Ducksauce


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LisaJaco said:


> Who is duck sauce?


The big black rich guy...somebody here couldn't make out his name (Daxos) when he was introduced and thought it sounded like "Ducksauce." It has sort of stuck.


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## steverm2 (May 10, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> There's no way it's the Stark kids, if it were the Stark kids, they wouldn't have been burnt beyond recognition.


yeah,if it were the stark kids Theon might have waited to kill them in public.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm almost 100% sure that they are the 2 orphan kids that Bran sent to that farm as additional workers (remember when he was serving as lord of the manor, and the farmer asked for some help?) They mentioned it again when they came upon the farm.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> There's no way it's the Stark kids, if it were the Stark kids, they wouldn't have been burnt beyond recognition.


The word is they were tarred, as per the book, evidently. I freezed it. The left body's arm is torn off.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

If he did actually capture the stark kids (and I don't think he did) how stupid it would be to kill them. They would be valuable bargaining chips. Is Theon that stupid? It would make more sense for him to execute anyone who aided their escape.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> The word is they were tarred, as per the book, evidently. I freezed it. The left body's arm is torn off.


I went back to that scene; both kids had a piece of an arm missing. I'm totally on board with Robb getting him alive. I'm hoping for a slow, painful death for Theon.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I've been meaning to post this for a while now and I just remembered: The Hound calls Sansa Little Bird; and Cersei always calls her Little Dove.

not sure why that matters. But there it is!


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

markb said:


> They would be valuable bargaining chips. Is Theon that stupid?


Is this a rhetorical question? Yes he is. They're paying the iron price. I don't think Krackens take hostages.

I wonder if HBO would really show the heads of 2 little boys? They did Ned and Rodrick, but kids would be a little different. So the tarring thing would just be a little extra torture? Or is Theon just afraid to attempt to behead someone again.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Tar is a preservative. It allows you to display your trophy for much longer.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> I've been meaning to post this for a while now and I just remembered: The Hound calls Sansa Little Bird; and Cersei always calls her Little Dove.
> 
> not sure why that matters. But there it is!


I noticed this too. I'm not sure it has any significance but now you have me wondering.



stellie93 said:


> Is this a rhetorical question? Yes he is.


Ha! I was going to reply with the same thing. :up:


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

Well, it was a rhetorical question, but I don't think he's quite that stupid.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Is this a rhetorical question? Yes he is. They're paying the iron price. I don't think Krackens take hostages.


I agree with your statement about the Greyjoys not taking hostages, but I don't think ALL of the stupidity is on Theon there. The entire Greyjoy house is stupid in that regard. They're thumbing their nose a huge part of Westerosian warfare. This all plays back into Theon's inner conflict between what he was taught was right while he was living at Winterfel and his desire to be seen as a rightful heir to the Iron Islands' Throne.


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