# What is the difference between Tivo and Windows Media Center?



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

It's been a couple years since we've had one of these threads and the tech seems to have advanced a little bit.

I can't find much detailed information about Windows Media Center but here's what I've gathered:

1) You can buy a 6-tuner Cable Card / Tuning Adapter adapter for PCs now. Meanwhile Tivo Roamio also now supports 6 tuners.

2) Windows Media Center doesn't seem to charge for TV guide data-- is this true? It seems to get a 14-day feed just like Tivo.

3) Does Windows Media Center support Tivo-like Season Passes?

4) Roamio has new features for streaming Internet sources which probably has caught up to WMC and it's various plug-ins.

So-- in your opinion, what is the advantage of Tivo over WMC these days?


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Certain individuals bring this up within other threads over and over and over. So, you may want to search a bit if this thread does not gain steam quickly. However, my guess is that this will get rather large as fans of each platform push their positions.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Biggest difference? 
Windows Media Center is deprecated and will not get any additional development, it's a dead end, Tivo is continuing to innovate.

This coming from a user with both Tivo and WMC in the house, but that alone would stop me from investing in anything for the future involving WMC.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

dtivouser said:


> It's been a couple years since we've had one of these threads and the tech seems to have advanced a little bit.
> 
> I can't find much detailed information about Windows Media Center but here's what I've gathered:
> 
> 1) You can buy a 6-tuner Cable Card / Tuning Adapter adapter for PCs now. Meanwhile Tivo Roamio also now supports 6 tuners.


Unlike the latest crop of Tivos, you are not limited by the number of tuners you can use with Windows Media Center. You can mix and match ATSC, QAM, and digital cable tuners. WMC actually does limit you to four of each type, but there are add-on utilities that can expand this number. The current drivers for the Ceton tuners expand this to more than 30 tuners, IIRC. My current HTPC has access to 9 cablecard tuners and six ATSC tuners for OTA channels.



> 2) Windows Media Center doesn't seem to charge for TV guide data-- is this true? It seems to get a 14-day feed just like Tivo.


This is correct. It tends to be more like 12 days of data, but there may be a few channels that have data extending to 14 days.



> 3) Does Windows Media Center support Tivo-like Season Passes?


Yes. It also supports Wish Lists similar to Tivo.



> 4) Roamio has new features for streaming Internet sources which probably has caught up to WMC and it's various plug-ins.
> 
> So-- in your opinion, what is the advantage of Tivo over WMC these days?


LOL, most people here already know I'm a fan of WMC so I tend to be a bit biased. Here's a few of the pros and cons for each platform, but there are many more to be sure. Keep in mind that the last Tivo I owned was the original series 3 so I'm not up to speed on all the latest features.

Tivo -

pros: Out-of-the-box appliance that requires virtually no expertise to set up and use. Excellent search features. This is the DVR you buy for your Grandmother to use.

cons: Either OTA or digital cable recording with the Roamio, but not both at the same time. (The Roamio Plus and the Roamio Pro _DO NOT_ support OTA.) The Premiere has separate inputs for both OTA and digital cable and can record from either source simultaneously, as does the Tivo Series 3 and the Tivo HD. The Premiere 4 and 4XL are digital cable only. Cost per tuner can get quite high compared to WMC and a single HTPC when factoring in lifetime service (i.e., additional Tivo tuners require the purchase of a complete Tivo and lifetime service whereas all you need to upgrade a HTPC is just buying more tuners). Tivo cannot be repurposed if you stop using it as a DVR or tuner.

WMC PC -

pros - No monthly fees for service or guide data. Features are only limited by your budget and/or imagination. Has far more functionality than a Tivo, such as Blu-Ray playback and additional streaming services not included with Tivo. Cost per tuner goes way down after the initial startup cost. Additional features or tuners cost only as much as the hardware or software being added (most software add-ons for WMC are free, but there are a few exceptions). HTPC can still be used as a PC if you ever decide to stop using it as a HTPC. Only minimal PC expertise is required to set up Windows Media Center as a DVR (if you can install a hard drive or hardware drivers you can easily set up WMC). My HTPCs have been running non-stop for several years with no problems. I just retired two of my older HTPCs that I used as satellite PCs for watching TV and streaming movies from my server. They were both replaced with Intel NUC PCs, which only measure about 4.5" x 4.5" x 1.4". I've attached photos of the NUC. It's the small box to the right of the TV.

cons - Initial cost can be higher than a Tivo if limited to just a few tuners. Additional features may require a higher skill level to install and configure, but there are lots of tutorials and helpful forums similar to the TCF. Hardware and/or software mismatches can cause problems with WMC in some instances. This is something that's geared more to someone that doesn't mind tinkering with PCs, if the need arises.

As mentioned by dianebrat, support for WMC has been discontinued and there will be no further development. It is still available with Windows 8 and 8.1 (Pro version only) as an add-on for $10, but it comes free with every version of Windows 7 except Home Basic. Aside from the basic functionality of WMC, most of the important developments have come from outside sources, so the lack of support from Microsoft is pretty much a moot point. As long as Microsoft continues to provide guide data, WMC will be alive and well for many years to come. Even if guide data is no longer available from Microsoft, there are third party providers that can supply guide data at a minimal cost. Companies like SiliconDust and Ceton are still developing products for WMC, so it's pretty clear that they expect it to be a viable product for the foreseeable future.

This barely scratches the surface of each platform, but I tried to cover the major items. No doubt others will chime in to flesh out the list on both sides.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

There you go. No need to search.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Tivo -
> 
> cons: No OTA recording with the latest models.


Not going to argue with the rest of your opinion even though I disagree with much of it. But the statement above, intended to be presented as fact, not opinion is flat out wrong. Roamio supports 4 OTA tuners and with alacarte options, can support the features of the higher priced models including drive space, MOCA and streaming.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

If you go back and look you'll see that I mentioned I'm only familiar with Tivos up to the original series 3. I am vaguely familiar with features included on Tivos newer than that. I welcome any corrections or additions to my post if I said anything in error.

You're certainly free to disagree with anything I post, but it would be helpful to anyone reading if you could qualify that response and provide a rationale as to why you disagree. If some of the facts I presented are in error, please be so kind as to let us know why they are incorrect. OTOH, I think I pretty much covered any caveats or pitfalls anyone would encounter with a WMC PC so I'm not sure exactly what you're disagreeing with. If I left something out, by all means add anything to the discussion that you feel needs correcting.

However, looking at the Tivo website, it says the Roamio can support digital cable or HD antenna. Looking at the rear panel connections, it's pretty clear that the Roamio can only support one or the other and not both at the same time since it only provides a single coax input. A digital DVR should be able to support both at the same time, IMHO. This is one area I see as a major flaw in the current Tivo's design. 

Neither the Roamio Plus or the Roamio Pro support OTA. I believe they are two of the latest model Tivos, so my statement was mostly correct.  I had thought these two models were introduced a bit later than the 4-tuner Roamio, but a press release I found announced all three models at the same time. A WMC PC has no problems mixing both OTA and digital cable on the same PC. I have amended the statement you indicated with the actual facts from the Tivo website.

While much of my post may be considered opinion as opposed to actual fact, it is mostly based on personal experience with building and using numerous HTPCs over the past 6 or 7 years and also using and modifying Tivos from the very first model up to the Series 3, spanning well over a decade. I used Windows XP with BeyondTV for several years prior to the release of Windows 7 and the Ceton cablecard tuners. I have literally built dozens of WMC PCs since the release of Windows 7 and they all work quite well.


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

I have had a series 1, a series 2, a series 2 DT, an HD, and a Premiere 4. I am currently only using the HD and Premiere. So I have a lot of experience with Tivo.

I also have an HTPC with Win 7, a Ceton 4 tuner USB, TWC, and a Tuning Adapter, for about 2 years. So a fair amount of experience with that.

I agree with most of what mr unnatural says about WMC, and I would add that I really like the capability of fast forwarding by one speed and still get intelligible audio. It works out to something like where I can watch a 1 hour show in 40 minutes on a Tivo, I can watch it in 30 minutes if I desire on WMC. Works well for talk shows - haven't used it for regular programming (except TAR).

Having said that, I don't have the same reliability, and I think it's due to the TA. Occasionally, maybe once a month, things just stop working and I have to work to get it back. Sometimes it's just restarting the TA. Sometimes I have to power down the Ceton. Sometimes it's 2 minutes. Sometimes it's 1/2 an hour to get things working. I have been away and come back to find a week didn't record. As such, I use it for a second source, not as my primary recorder. I still like it, I'm not going to get rid of it, since it also acts as my media server for my movies. I just can't depend solely on it. I blame TWC and their stupid SDV requiring a TA, but I'm not positive. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, but it is frustrating.

ETA: I've had some flaky things happen with the Premiere 4 also. I don't think Tivo is as rock solid as they used to be, but the overall reliability is better for me than WMC and a fix is usually just a reboot. Less technical ability required, in general.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> IIRC, models later than the Tivo HD and prior to the Roamio did not support OTA recording, but please correct me if I am mistaken.


OK. 

The "models later than the Tivo HD and prior to the Roamio" is the Premiere line.

The original Premiere (at first, came with a 320 GB drive, later came with a 500 GB drive) and the Premiere XL (1 TB drive) have two tuners and are capable of tuning cable and OTA simultaneously,
while the Premiere 4 and Premiere 4XL have 4 tuners and are cable only.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

You must have posted this while I was correcting my original post on this. I went back and researched it a bit more and made corrections based on jcthorne's comment. I have also clarified the comment with regards to the Premiere 4 and 4XL. Thanks for the feedback.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

WO312 said:


> I have had a series 1, a series 2, a series 2 DT, an HD, and a Premiere 4. I am currently only using the HD and Premiere. So I have a lot of experience with Tivo.
> 
> I also have an HTPC with Win 7, a Ceton 4 tuner USB, TWC, and a Tuning Adapter, for about 2 years. So a fair amount of experience with that.
> 
> ...


I've been fortunate that I've never had to deal with Tuning Adapters and SDV. I'm also fortunate that I'm on FIOS. I have no doubt that using a TA can throw a monkey wrench into any setup, and a HTPC is no exception. This is probably a situation where a Tivo may be more stable and probably more desirable.

I was a huge fan of Tivo for over a decade and I still think it's the best turnkey commercially available DVR on the market. If you're not adventurous and don't like to tinker, then Tivo is by far your best option. What's funny is that the ability to hack a Tivo and upgrade it is what attracted me to it in the first place. The latest models aren't quite as amenable to hacking, although with the latest feature set it's not as desirable or necessary as it once was.

My main beef with Tivo, aside from the service fees that seem to escalate with each new model, is that I don't like being locked into a fixed platform. Tivo is still making headway with new features, but you usually have to buy a new Tivo to get them. With a HTPC, you can usually install a new piece of hardware or software to get a lot more functionality. I also like that I don't have to switch between Tivos or other audio or video components anymore. Everything I access in my Home Theater is available through my HTPC.

But just to be perfectly clear, a HTPC is more of a niche device that's geared towards the hobbyist and not someone that wants an appliance. HTPCs may or may not require a bit of tinkering and TLC that Tivos do not need. However, HTPCs can be configured to work just as well and as reliably as any Tivo. I've got a set formula for setting up a HTPC that just plain works and requires no tinkering over and above installing monthly Windows updates.

This is basically all I do:

1. Install Windows.
2. Install all drivers for the motherboard, chipset, graphics, HD audio, etc.
3. Install all Windows updates until they are current.
4. Install tuners and associated drivers.
5. Install any additional hardware, drivers, codecs (I use Shark007 with the recommended settings), and software.
6. Configure tuners, if required, prior to running WMC setup (the SiliconDust and Ceton InfiniTV tuners require this). It's also a good idea to update drivers and firmware to the latest versions.
7. Run WMC initial setup.
8. Run the Digital Cable Advisor if using a cablecard tuner (this _MUST_ be done prior to setting up a cablecard tuner in WMC).
9. Run the TV signal setup in WMC (this discovers the tuners and configures them for use in WMC and also designates your provider and zip code for guide data).
10. Run any additional setup for Recorder Storage, speakers, monitor type, Media Libraries, etc.
11. Enjoy!

I forgot to mention that you'll also need to activate a cablecard at some point during the process. There is actually a step during the TV signal setup that tells you to activate the cablecard, but it can be done at any time before or after setup.

Edit: A couple of additional notes. I download and install Microsoft Security Essentials. It's free and doesn't interfere with Media Center like some AV programs tend to do (Kaspersky wreaks havoc with WMC). Once you've got everything set up, the guide data is populated, and you've scheduled all of your recordings, run a Windows backup. I prefer creating a backup image and storing it on a separate drive. This allows you to do a complete restore of your system if something gets hosed.


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## Starfury9 (Nov 1, 2013)

The main advantage that I have with the Tivo is that it is easy to set up, doesn't use that much power, doesn't make noise, and updates itself.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Starfury9 said:


> The main advantage that I have with the Tivo is that it is easy to set up, doesn't use that much power, doesn't make noise, and updates itself.


Your Tivos must be quieter than mine. I have never owned a Tivo where the drive didn't seek constantly. I could never have one in my bedroom for all the noise they make. My NUCs are almost dead silent. You can't turn off the buffers on a Tivo so it's always recording something. You can try tuning it to a non-channel, but that's not exactly foolproof. With WMC, I hit the STOP button on the remote and it stops buffering live TV. The NUC also uses a SSD so there's no drive noise. The only noise it makes is from a small fan under the mainboard, and you have to get up close to it before you can hear it.

I can configure Windows to update automatically, but I prefer to pick and choose which updates to install. Tivo doesn't give you the option. I prefer to have some control over what gets installed.

A PC is going to use more power, but if you combine all of the individual components that you'd need to provide the same functionality (i.e., multiple Tivos, Blu-Ray player, etc.) the overall energy usage would probably be pretty close. I haven't put a Kill-O-Watt meter on my NUCs yet, but I'd wager they probably use about the same energy as a Tivo. The power supply is rated at 19V, 65W, but actual usage is reported to be less than half that. To be fair, I have to use external tuners and an external hard drive with the NUC so there is more energy being used by other devices that work with it. The current generation Haswell-based NUCs are supposed to use even less energy than mine.

Did I mention that the NUC boots into WMC in only about 15 seconds? Ridiculously long boot times are one thing I don't miss about my Tivos. I use SSDs for the OS in all of my PCs and the boot times are extremely fast.

WMC setup is on a par with setting up a Tivo. You follow a series of onscreen prompts and do what it says. There's really not a lot of difference other than setting up some additional features in WMC. There are other setups that can get more involved, but that's mainly for advanced features and add-ons.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Ah, I didn't even stop to consider that a WMC (HTPC) replaces not only the Roamio, but the Blu-Ray player and even the Apple TV too.


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## waterchange (Jun 29, 2010)

mr.unnatural said:


> Your Tivos must be quieter than mine. I have never owned a Tivo where the drive didn't seek constantly. I could never have one in my bedroom for all the noise they make. My NUCs are almost dead silent. You can't turn off the buffers on a Tivo so it's always recording something. You can try tuning it to a non-channel, but that's not exactly foolproof. With WMC, I hit the STOP button on the remote and it stops buffering live TV. The NUC also uses a SSD so there's no drive noise. The only noise it makes is from a small fan under the mainboard, and you have to get up close to it before you can hear it.


For a quiet bedroom experience, a TiVo Mini might make more sense for someone invested in the TiVo infrastracture.

The Intel NUCs look interesting. How much of an investment did you make for each NUC including SSD + whatever else might be needed?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I have two different NUC models, both with the CORE i3 3217 CPU. One model is the DC3217IYE, which I purchased used on ebay for about $200 (I think this was actually an open box unit as everything in the box was still sealed). This model has two HDMI outputs, three USB 2.0 connectors, and a gigabit Ethernet port. I bought two used 4GB DDR3 1600 SODIMMs on ebay for about $30 apiece on ebay and a 64GB MyDigitalSSD from Amazon for about $60. Total was about $320.

The 2nd model is a DC3217BY, which is basically the same except that it only has a single HDMI output, a Thunderbolt display port, and no Ethernet port. I purchased this new from nextwarehouse.com for $168. Newegg had a sale on a pair of 4GB G.Skill DDR3 1600 SODIMMs for $50 a few weeks ago so I picked up a set. The hard drive is a Plextor mSATA SSD from Adorama for about $74. I also picked up a Thunderbolt Gigabit Ethernet adapter on ebay for about $27, although I could have probably used a USB 2.0 Gigabit adapter for about half the cost. Total cost for this setup was about $320 as well. I could have trimmed the cost a bit by going with the MyDigitalSSD and USB Ethernet adapter for a total cost under $300.

I'm using a Lenovo 5902 keyboard/thumbpad remote with each NUC for keyboard input and mouse control if I need to do anything on the Windows desktop (the small blue dongle plugged into the front USB port shown in the photos I posted previously is the receiver for the 5902). I bought these a while back for about $25 each from Lenovo and they go on sale quite often. They lack function keys so I need to use a standard USB keyboard if I need to get into the BIOS. For WMC control, I use the HP WMC remote and IR receiver. You can find them on ebay for about $15-20 for the set. The HP IR receiver is very popular among WMC users, but any cheap WMC remote and receiver will work.

I added a 60GB 2.5" laptop drive to each NUC along with an external USB hub. The drives were only $25 each. In installed each one in an extruded aluminum case at about $5 each. They require two USB ports to provide signal interface and power, hence the need for the external USB hub. The drives are there just in case anyone wants to record a program via the NUC. I just tuck the drive and the hub out of sight.

For tuners, I use a SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime triple cablecard networked tuner for FIOS channels. These are currently selling for about $99. I also use a HDHomeRun Dual ATSC networked tuner for OTA channels. They routinely sell for about $59. Since they're networked, they can be used by any PC that has the SiliconDust software installed.

I have a server that has about 30TB of storage and counting. I have over 900 movies ripped from Blu-Rays and DVDs as well as numerous TV shows, concert videos, and miscellaneous videos. I can stream them to any PC in the house. All of the movies have been ripped and converted to mkv files and I use XBMC to play them back on the NUCs and other PCs in the house. They are in 1080p with full HD audio intact.

Either of these NUCs could easily be used as a primary HTPC with the additional of a larger external drive. The CORE i3 processor is more than powerful enough and even the Celeron 847 model has been reported to work quite well. There is also a CORE i5 model, but I see that as overkill for a HTPC. The latest generation uses the Haswell processors and are supposed to be more energy efficient.

I forgot to mention that the NUC power bricks do not come with a power cable. You need to pick up a power cable with the Mickey Mouse ear plug on the end. similar to what most laptops use. The idea behind this was that you can pick up the power cable that works on your particular power grid anywhere in the world. They're typically available on ebay for about $3-5. The newer Haswell models do come with the cable as many people complained about the lack thereof.

Note that I already had the HP remotes with IR receivers, Lenovo keyboard/thumbpad remotes, and SiliconDust networked tuners. All of these devices were used by the HTPCs that were replaced by the NUCs. This is but another example how you can repurpose hardware with a HTPC setup. With a Tivo, about the only thing you can use is the remote and hard drive, although if you plan on selling the Tivo you'll need to include both with the unit.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

For just a plug & Play operation TiVo is by far the best solution, for people who like to get into things WMC may be a great solution, but it not as family friendly as TiVo.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> For just a plug & Play operation TiVo is by far the best solution, for people who like to get into things WMC may be a great solution, but it not as family friendly as TiVo.


Agreed. The plug and play feature was implied under the "pros" list for Tivo.

WMC is family friendly as long as it behaves. This is not something you put together and give to someone to use that isn't tech savvy to a certain degree. As outlined previously, I don't pull any rabbits out of a hat to build a WMC PC and they've all been pretty stable. OTOH, they're PCs and are inherent of any glitches or pitfalls that can cause havoc on any PC. I've found that if you don't use them for internet access other than obtaining updates and drivers, they tend to be rather trouble-free. The trick is to keep the setup as simple as possible and you won't suffer any major headaches.

My wife and son use the two NUCs on a daily basis and the only time I see any issues is when they use XBMC for movie playback. I have an integration app that lets me execute XBMC from within Media Center. When I exit XBMC I am returned to the WMC main menu. However, for some strange reason, the menu won't respond to the remote. If I use the Lenovo keyboard/thumbpad remote and click on a menu item, the WMC remote will then control the menu functions. XBMC is actually a standalone application so I think what's happening is that the cursor/remote is still active in the XBMC window and the only way to regain remote control in WMC is to make the cursor active in that window. This is one of those advanced features I'm referring to so anyone just using WMC shouldn't experience these issues.


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## DonWidmore (Dec 28, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Your Tivos must be quieter than mine. I have never owned a Tivo where the drive didn't seek constantly. I could never have one in my bedroom for all the noise they make.


I am puzzled by this comment as all my TiVos have been completely silent. They are located in my bedroom approx. 12 ft from my headboard in a "media armoire" if you remember those from the 90s and at no time do I recall hearing them at all except for intentional noise. Sounds like you had a lemon of some sort- but certainly not like anything I ever owned.

Part of the reason I know this is once when my Series 2 froze up I went right up to listen to it because I wanted to hear the hard drive run and my wife made fun of me about it- I couldn't hear anything.


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## DonWidmore (Dec 28, 2006)

Like many people my interest is in purchasing a fully-functioning plug n play HTPC that I can use as a 6-12TB media center. I want to keep subscribing to shows while having the full range of expandability with a NAS, preferably RAID-5, and a place to dump what are approx. 400 DVD-Rs of shows I taped off TV in the 1980s and converted to DVD 10 years ago. I'd buy the top of the line TiVo from Weaknees if it meant I could move my files onto it.

I don't really have the free time to build one, but Assassin HTPC and others end up in the $3k range when I spec them out...


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## DonWidmore (Dec 28, 2006)

Like many people my interest is in purchasing a fully-functioning plug n play HTPC that I can use as a 6-12TB media center. I want to keep subscribing to shows while having the full range of expandability with a NAS, preferably RAID-5, and a place to dump what are approx. 400 DVD-Rs of shows I taped off TV in the 1980s and converted to DVD 10 years ago. I'd buy the top of the line TiVo from Weaknees if it meant I could move my files onto it.

I don't really have the free time to build one, but Assassin HTPC and others end up in the $3k range when I spec them out...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

DonWidmore said:


> I am puzzled by this comment as all my TiVos have been completely silent. They are located in my bedroom approx. 12 ft from my headboard in a "media armoire" if you remember those from the 90s and at no time do I recall hearing them at all except for intentional noise. Sounds like you had a lemon of some sort- but certainly not like anything I ever owned.
> 
> Part of the reason I know this is once when my Series 2 froze up I went right up to listen to it because I wanted to hear the hard drive run and my wife made fun of me about it- I couldn't hear anything.


There is no such thing as a completely silent Tivo unless you replace the hard drives with SSDs and use large heat sinks instead of fans. There will always be some noise generated by a Tivo, regardless of the model. Some are just noisier than others.

I've upgraded every Tivo that's come into my possession with aftermarket drives so perhaps the drives I've used in some instances were noisier than others. Even so, I do recall stock drives being every bit as noisy. The noise wasn't always consistent and I suspect it was noisiest when taking an update or downloading data while buffering live TV. With dual tuners, the heads would be buffering two separate TV streams, causing the heads to jump between different sectors of the drive platters. This will generate noise on any spinning hard drive.

The last Tivo I owned was a series 3 that resided in a TV stand in my family room. I could hear the drive clacking from across the room. I believe it had a 750GB drive, but I don't recall exactly as I upgraded it several years ago.

Did your "media armoire" have closed doors? If so, that would be enough to muffle the sound of the drives.

Assassin HTPCs can get a bit pricey, but he builds a quality product that should be relatively trouble-free. He also provides service after the sale and a warranty, IIRC. There are enough tutorials and recommended hardware configurations available that would allow you to build a perfectly fine HTPC. In fact, Assassin has a website with everything you need to know and it's now free to anyone: assassinhtpcblog.com

Hardware RAID is really not the best solution as a media server, nor is it the most cost effective. There are several software RAID solutions that would be better suited for the task. FlexRAID, unRAID, and SnapRAID are three of the most popular software RAID programs. Assassin has a website dedicated to these types of servers that is also free: assassinserver.com

FWIW, I can build a HTPC from scratch and have it up and running in about four hours. Most of that time is due to downloading Windows updates and I usually find other things to do while this is going on. I just start the update process and come back and check it later. Putting the hardware together only takes about 30 minutes or so, depending on your configuration. If you've already got a Windows 7 PC up and running it's only a matter of installing the tuners and drivers and then running WMC setup, which can all be done in less than an hour.

My very first Tivo standalone (Philips HDR-112) took about three hours to run setup. Obviously, they have streamlined the setup process considerably over the years.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Thanks for the tip on Assassin! I've ordered the Ceton 6-tuner device to try it out on my main PC. With good results, I am going to assemble an HTPC.


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

I got the Ceton 6 tuner back after it was released, and I'm really impressed with it. I replaced the 4 tuner with the 6, and I didnt go all out on mine like most do. I put it in a Dell Optiplex 755 with an Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 and it doesnt miss a beat. I have an SSD for the OS, and 2 WD20EURS drives for storage. I really think you will be happy with it. I plan on one day making one of the nicer ones, but I just never have yet.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

dtivouser said:


> Thanks for the tip on Assassin! I've ordered the Ceton 6-tuner device to try it out on my main PC. With good results, I am going to assemble an HTPC.


No problem. I also have an InfiniTV 6 that recently replaced two InfiniTV 4's in my main HTPC. I pre-ordered my first InfiniTV 4 five months before it was actually released and got one from the very first production batch. I paid $399 for it and still believe it was the best $400 I ever spent. Here's some other HTPC sites you might want to take a look at:

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/ - Premiere site for Windows Media Center. You'll also find support for the Ceton tuners here.

http://www.avsforum.com/f/26/home-theater-computers - Forum that discusses anything HTPC related

http://www.missingremote.com/ - Great source for HTPC news, topics, and tutorials

http://www.hack7mc.com/ - Everything you wanted to know about hacking Windows Media Center


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## jbluemke (Sep 22, 2013)

yeah..windows media center is done. There will be no more innovation


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

jbluemke said:


> yeah..windows media center is done. There will be no more innovation


As indicated in a previous post, most of the innovations for WMC have come from third parties. The fact that Microsoft has abandoned any further development is completely irrelevant to most WMC users. WMC will survive as long as guide data is available from either Microsoft or other sources. I can easily see WMC in use a decade from now.

FWIW, Microsoft has stopped supporting Windows XP and older OSes, yet I know a lot of people that are still using Windows 98, 2000, and XP. There is absolutely no reason to believe that WMC is even remotely done in the foreseeable future. As long as it still runs on your existing hardware, you can keep any system going indefinitely.

Tivo has abandoned support for older platforms. According to your standards they are now useless. I think a lot of owners of these older platforms would tend to disagree with your assessment.


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## hoyty (Jan 22, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> WMC will survive as long as guide data is available from either Microsoft or other sources. I can easily see WMC in use a decade from now.


This is the key issue. How long will Microsoft keep guide data alive? I think it is longer now then it might have been because I have a feeling the OneGuide in Xbox One uses a close relation (if not identical) guide data feed as WMC. Xbox One is going to be around for a while.

Also I am inclined to believe that people will have Windows 7 running for as long if not longer than XP has lived (12 years) and WMC in 8/8.1 isn't broken per-se just not as fully supported by third party apps. It isn't guaranteed that WMC won't live on in Windows 9 it just won't have any new features.

In my previous house I had Series 3 for my wife to use primarily for ease of use and reliability and then a WMC in home theater for expandability and other uses. I will agree with almost every Mr. Unnatural has said and WMC still has its place for sure but I am going to buy Roamio today to replace my Series 3 since I just want a simple 6-tuner device and I think I will survive with 3 TB for a while.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

It's pretty certain that Media Center won't be part of the next Windows release. Then again, who's to say they won't continue to offer it as an add-on (I'm not holding my breath on that one)?

There are third party providers for guide data used in other media center software apps, such as Media Portal and SageTV. Most of these sources can be used with Windows Media Center as well. Even if Microsoft stops providing guide data it should be available from other sources, albeit for a modest fee.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

Biggest advantage for Tivo over Media Center? It Just Works (tm) 

That's it. If you enjoy caring and feeding for science projects, by all means geek out with Windows media center. If you are willing to tinker, it can be quite satisfying. But for the first time, with the Roamio finally delivering on excellent performance and UI responsiveness, I can unequivocally say that for me there is absolutely NO benefit of WMC over a Lifetime subbed Tivo. None - indeed, only negatives. I don't miss my WMC at all.

EDIT: And with streaming services being so prevalent, the need to have terabytes of shows hanging around isn't nearly as appealing as it once was. I do have my movies ripped to my home server and serve them up from there.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The amount of caring and feeding all depends on your setup. I've got three HTPCs running 24/7 that require zero maintenance other than manually running Windows Update once a month. I could let them update automatically, but I prefer to pick which updates I want installed. Compared to the stability of Tivos, I'd put them both dead even in that regards, at least with my PCs. Obviously, YMMV.

Whatever benefits you get from either platform depends entirely on how you use them and what you want them to do. I really like having everything available from a single device without having to switch inputs. I can watch and record live TV as well as enjoy Blu-Ray movies in 1080p with full HD audio. I've also got a vast library of DVDs, home movies, concert videos, and miscellaneous TV shows and videos archived on my 30TB server.

I'm not particularly enamored with streaming services so I don't use them. Aside from shows they produce themselves, Netflix only offers movies and TV shows that were released years ago, most of which I've probably already seen when they were first run. Occasionally I'll discover a show that I missed during its first run, but that's what torrents are for.  Other services include commercials that can't be skipped, which totally defeats the purpose of owning a DVR. Virtually every movie I have on my server is more current than the vast majority of streamed content from Netflix.


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## khidr (Jan 5, 2014)

Just started using tivo after many years with WMC, so I wanted to share thoughts from the other direction. Let me start off by saying - I love WMC. I've been using for years, and like Mr. Unnatural, grabbed the ceton infinity in that launch window before it was easily available. I just got tired of maintaining the hardware / squashing bugs. I partially blame the move to win8.1, but mostly just my own fatigue and decision that I didn't want to have to work at my tv anymore. 

But, let's talk about the actual differences:

WMC is beautiful. As a pure interface, it is still the best looking dvr interface I've ever used. I love the transparent guide that floats in over live tv instead of giving you the standard windowed view, and the grid view for recordings/media is quick and intuitive to navigate. 

Tivo isn't ugly by any means, but it definitely takes a more 'standard' approach. The folder views for navigating recordings is totally functional, but as someone new to tivo - it can be a bit of a mess, with recordings in multiple folders depending on groupings, and generally just less attractive from a UI standpoint. 

On the other hand, the metadata that tivo grabs (without any effort on my part) such as telling me the season and episode number is wonderful. 

The metaphor for setting up recordings is a bit of an adjustment as well, the biggest negative for me is the split between the season pass and wishlist in tivo. In WMC I had no need for the wishlist - if I wanted to add a show and needed to catch up on old episodes, I would add a series recording with "HD preferred, or HD only" new and rerun, and let it grab all of the episodes for any channel. 

With Tivo, I'd have to do this as a wishlist if I didn't want to commit to a single channel, or set up a season pass for each station that might syndicate the show. So far - the wishlist has been a little more cumbersome from what I've seen, or needs someone with more experience to set it up perfectly. I definitely think a little more channel flexibility in tivo would be great, but only for the rare catalog shows. 

Internet video: On WMC I have two options - open whatever site I want since I'm using a pc running media center, or if I'm using a 360, use its comprehensive app store for internet video (with many many more options than the roamio has at the moment). In both cases, I can get to whatever streaming site I want, but in both cases I have to leave my tv/wmc interface entirely to do so. 

Tivo has netflix, hulu, youtube, and not-amazon-prime-video. BUT - if I search for a show, movie, or anything else - it searches ALL of these services and lets me get it wherever it might be. Unified search is a killer feature, and really one of the key arguments as to why it's wonderful to be using an interface that is still being actively developed by its owner. I would have loved for the xbox 360 to include my wmc guide/dvr in search results, but it would never happen. 

chromecasting/DIAL support: this is another truly cool thing. Find a youtube video on your phone, hit the chromecast button, select your tivo, and boom - instant youtube party. I've been burned on the whopping 35.00 I spent on my chromecast! 

WMC had some really nice advantages - basically infinite tuners, the ability to expand functionality with some great third party apps (the ceton mymedia center phone apps were lovely) and cheap reliable extenders in the form of xboxes that give you a ton of additional content. Tivo on the other hand has a monthly fee (even on its extender, which - really? come on!) and more or less limits you to what you've got (though it also has the ability to extend its abilities with third party apps a la pytivo, and hopefully there will be more opportunity coming soon with the html5 app store - 

I think ultimately, it comes down to how much work you want to put into your system. I'm happy with the switch, but I also think I just got the bug to have a change of pace coupled with a rough couple of months squashing bugs. If you hate cableboxes though, you really can't go wrong with either setup.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I think both can work great but TiVo is so much easier to set up and use. As far as the belief that despite Microsoft giving up on WMC, it will be adequately supported and improved by third parties, I consider that extremely optimistic. 

WMC is too difficult for me but now that Microsoft has given up trying to make it a viable, profitable product, something people will want to buy a Windows operating system to use or to set up a second computer in house, I wouldn't choose it even if could set it up and teach the female in house to use. Since I don't like to use WMC, I am sure not going to try and sell anybody else in the house on using it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Not being optimistic at all. There are already third parties that provide guide data for a modest fee. I think you underestimate the number of WMC users and supporters that would like to ensure it's longevity. Even if WMC disappears completely, there are other Media Center frontends, like Media Portal, SageTV, and probably others, that provide support for cablecard tuners. The only caveat is that the channels cannot be flagged as copy once by your provider.

I'm not sure why you feel that WMC is too difficult to use. If you can install a card in a PCI-e slot and install the necessary drivers, you can use WMC. Setup is actually quite simple and the WMC UI isn't hard to use at all.

I gave up on trying to sell WMC to the wife and son ages ago. I just slipped it in quietly and now they both use it on a daily basis. The wife used to use my old Tivo for watching live TV. Now she does it using WMC. She still complains if something isn't working the way she expects it to. Problem is, she has zero patience and no tolerance whatsoever and will start punching buttons on the remote thinking that eventually she can fix it using a brute force approach. 99.999% of any problems she has with WMC are usually due to operator error or something that is easily remedied by restarting Media Center on the PC. My wife does not play well with any type of technology.

WMC is definitely a niche product and not something for the average user. If you want a product that works out of the box and you don't mind paying fees to use hardware you already own, then a Tivo is what you need. If you like more of a hands-on approach with virtually no limitations on the features you can add, then a WMC PC may just be what you're looking for. I've always recommended that anyone thinking of trying a HTPC should purchase an inexpensive TV tuner and connect it to an antenna. If you're already using Windows 7 then you're already most of the way there.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> The amount of caring and feeding all depends on your setup.


lol - with Tivo I have zero!



> I've got three HTPCs running 24/7 that require zero maintenance other than ...


As soon as you use "other than" the qualifier "zero" goes out the window 

And it may be relatively stable now, but what did it realisticly take to get where you are now? (That was rhetorical, BTW - please no dissertation on how easy it was to set up)

Look, I have Windows, Mac and Linux servers in my house - over 48 wired ports of gigabit ethernet and commercial grade routing and wifi. I'm a geek - I just choose to geek out over stuff other than recording video.

Any solution based on a general purpose computer OS may be more flexible, but the huge trade off is maintenance and no amount of sugar coating is going to change that. TiVo is plug and play, media centers aren't. That's my point. I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong, special, impossible, extraordinary, not extraordinary, etc. I'm just being realistic.

Ever hear of beer goggles? Well geeks do the same thing with otherwise "ugly" tech - we overlook the warts as we get blinded by the underlying tech. Geek goggles, if you will. I've been guilty of it and will be again some day. I'm just pointing out your geek goggles are showing 

Finally, to the OP: WMC is dead. I wouldn't invest any time in it. Just look at how MS submarined Windows home server to see the ugly future.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> WMC is definitely a niche product and not something for the average user. If you want a product that works out of the box and you don't mind paying fees to use hardware you already own, then a Tivo is what you need.


I take umbrage at your statement about paying a fee for hardware you already own, TiVo retail sales model is based on this fee, they could have priced the product with service included from the start than nobody would be making such a statement, but they would have given up too much to the retail store that sold TiVos, and would not make out from the people that pay monthly as opposed to Lifetime. Retail discount is about 30% so a list price Roamio + at $400 cost the Retailer about $280 giving the Retailer about a 43% mark-up to list. TiVo did not want to give away another $120 on the service cost (for lifetime) or would have to charge more the customer. If you have Netflix streaming you pay a service fee to them and they did not sell you any hardware, but the hardware you use to get Netflix you own (in most cases).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

DocNo said:


> lol - with Tivo I have zero!


As do I with my WMC HTPCs.



> As soon as you use "other than" the qualifier "zero" goes out the window


Then you clearly did not read the qualifier. I can set mine up for automatic updates, just like your Tivos, but I choose not to.



> And it may be relatively stable now, but what did it realisticly take to get where you are now? (That was rhetorical, BTW - please no dissertation on how easy it was to set up)


There were definitely some growing pains, but that was mostly due to using early versions of Windows 7 (i.e. pre-Service Pack 1) and less stable hardware. I can literally take just about any current PC hardware, install Windows 7 and any necessary support software and drivers, and turn it into a stable HTPC.



> Look, I have Windows, Mac and Linux servers in my house - over 48 wired ports of gigabit ethernet and commercial grade routing and wifi. I'm a geek - I just choose to geek out over stuff other than recording video.


I've got a 30TB unRAID server and hardwired ethernet in every room of my house, most of them with multiple connections. My router is a PC running pfSense. I've also got a Hackintosh and a Windows 8.1 PC, as well as numerous other Windows 7 PCs and laptops. I do like to geek out on other stuff, but I also like to have a stable setup for watching and recording TV. WMC gives me that. But like I've stated numerous times before, YMMV.



> Any solution based on a general purpose computer OS may be more flexible, but the huge trade off is maintenance and no amount of sugar coating is going to change that. TiVo is plug and play, media centers aren't. That's my point. I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong, special, impossible, extraordinary, not extraordinary, etc. I'm just being realistic.


No, you're just being negative. There's no sugar coating going on. My HTPCs require zero maintenance, period, no matter how you wish to twist my words. They're also literally plug and play when I get done setting them up. Any maintenance I perform is strictly voluntary and not required.



> Finally, to the OP: WMC is dead. I wouldn't invest any time in it. Just look at how MS submarined Windows home server to see the ugly future.


By this standard, S1 through S3 Tivos are also dead since they are (mostly, if not entirely) no longer supported. If WMC were truly dead, explain to me how companies like Ceton and SiliconDust are still developing products to use with it? Clearly they know more than you do on the subject.

The OP asked what the differences are between WMC and Tivos, not a dissertation on why you shouldn't use one or the other. WMC is alive and well, regardless of what the naysayers are telling you. 



lessd said:


> I take umbrage at your statement about paying a fee for hardware you already own, TiVo retail sales model is based on this fee, they could have priced the product with service included from the start than nobody would be making such a statement, but they would have given up too much to the retail store that sold TiVos, and would not make out from the people that pay monthly as opposed to Lifetime. Retail discount is about 30% so a list price Roamio + at $400 cost the Retailer about $280 giving the Retailer about a 43% mark-up to list. TiVo did not want to give away another $120 on the service cost (for lifetime) or would have to charge more the customer. If you have Netflix streaming you pay a service fee to them and they did not sell you any hardware, but the hardware you use to get Netflix you own (in most cases).


Sorry Les, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. My point is that the actual cost of owning and operating a Tivo is high and above what they charge you for the hardware. Tivo has gone to a subsidized pricing structure, but charges you much more for the service as a result. I paid only $99 for lifetime service on my original S1 Tivo and about $100 for the Tivo itself. The hardware and software is much more advanced than the earlier models and you get more bang for your hardware buck, but you're paying far more for the privilege of using it than ever before. I applaud the direction Tivo is taking with their latest models, but they're making it much more expensive to own one. It's one of the main reasons I switched to HTPCs. I don't mind paying for a platform I can upgrade to my liking, but I dislike paying for a fixed platform that gives me little or no flexibility by comparison.

Tivo could easily factor in the profit margin for the hardware, allowing the retailer to price it competitively, and simply tack on the lifetime service fee, much the same way that ReplayTV did with their DVRs. All I'm saying is that the cost of buying a Tivo is potentially 4-5 times more than the cost of the DVR itself. Imagine an unsuspecting person getting a new Tivo as a gift, only to find out that it's going to cost them another $400-500 just to use it, assuming they opt for lifetime service.

To all: I was hoping to avoid turning this thread into another Tivo vs. HTPC pissing contest. If you have a valid point to make about feature comparisons between the two platforms, I welcome them. However, if you start posting crap that WMC is dead or it sucks or it doesn't work or any drivel to that extent, I'm going to set the record straight. I've never claimed that WMC is perfect and I have stated that it clearly isn't for everyone. OTOH, I've probably experienced as many problems with Tivos over the past decade or so as I have with my HTPCs, so clearly Tivos aren't perfect either. Both platforms are aimed at different target markets and each has something to offer over and above your cable provider's DVR. These are the features I'd like to focus on and leave the negativity at the door.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

I have both a WMC installation w/XBOX 360's as extenders and Roamios.

When I had the Tivo S3 and HD, I considered WMC to be slightly better. The speed of the Roamios, streaming, copying speed, and the guide improvements puts the Roamio in the lead for me although it's minor.

I already had the PC hardware available and an xbox 360. I eventually just converted the machine into an ESXI server so I could use the hardware for multiple operating systems. It's been operating find for the last few years without a problem. I've updated ESXI once or twice and patch the Win 7 WMC instance occasionally.

I started it up initially because I wanted a solution where I could watch TV in different locations in the house. The S3 and HD were just too slow in transferring shows. The interface with the S3 and HD were acceptable although not as fast as I would have liked.

If I was thinking about doing it today, I'd still probably do it for the geek factor in getting it working although the Tivos would be my main interface for watching TV. Real multi-room viewing (streaming, speedy transfers) with the Roamios was what I was originally looking to get working.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

OP here. I have my Ceton 6-tuner PCI card working and have just started experimenting with it.

One thing I notice as a genuine difference between WMC and Tivo is that with Ceton, I can assign a tuner to other Windows computers on my network. As far as I can tell (thus far), any Windows 7 desktop or laptop can run WMC and, with some really fragile configuration, watch and record live TV. This places a load on the network obviously and I'm not sure at what point it breaks. But so far, it's really nice-- enough that I wonder if I shouldn't have purchased the Ceton 6-tuner ethernet device instead. I figure that if sharing tuners over the internet is something I want to do, a device simpler than a full-on PC would be more reliable. The Roamio has proven to be pretty unreliable so far for me (not everyone, I know).

Just a day or so into this and I can confirm what others said-- to make this work I have to be willing to tinker with it-- quite a bit so far, to get started. I'm hoping once I build a dedicated HTPC the config will stabilize and not require much handholding.

As I research this, I find a lot of references to using XBMC for live TV viewing and recording. It seems to be done via plugins and I wonder how well. Once I get WMC stabilized I will try that too.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

mr.unnatural said:


> ... you're paying far more for the privilege of using it than ever before.


That is the number one reason I chose an HTPC over the TiVo service. Although, manual recording with my unique TiVo Premiere without TiVo service combined with Google TV was not bad. But, I prefer open source software over WMC.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

cram501 said:


> I have both a WMC installation w/XBOX 360's as extenders and Roamios.
> 
> When I had the Tivo S3 and HD, I considered WMC to be slightly better. The speed of the Roamios, streaming, copying speed, and the guide improvements puts the Roamio in the lead for me although it's minor.
> 
> ...


Almost all users of WMC have a geek factor but not all geeks use WMC over a TiVo. WMC is not real competition for TiVo, TiVo loss of sales to WMC is most likely in the .1% range, their loss of sales to the cable co DVR is most likely 60% - 80%.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Sorry Les, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. My point is that the actual cost of owning and operating a Tivo is high and above what they charge you for the hardware. Tivo has gone to a subsidized pricing structure, but charges you much more for the service as a result. I paid only $99 for lifetime service on my original S1 Tivo and about $100 for the Tivo itself. The hardware and software is much more advanced than the earlier models and you get more bang for your hardware buck, but you're paying far more for the privilege of using it than ever before. I applaud the direction Tivo is taking with their latest models, but they're making it much more expensive to own one.


My wife bought our first S1 for me for Father's Day in 2000 and lifetime service was $199. And I believe the Sony S1 itself was somewhere between $200-$300 as my wife recalls (she thinks $250). Lifetime later went up to $249 by the time we purchased our second S1 in 2002. I would disagree that you are paying far more for the privilege at least based on the initial normal retail pricing. And yes we picked up our second S1 for $100 when KMart was have a closeout on them but that was not the normal price then.

Scott


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I realize I'm probably stretching things a bit when I get into cost comparisons. There are a lot of intangibles with each platform that make it more or less desirable for certain people. The initial cost of a Tivo is lower than ever, but I believe you're locked into a minimum service contract if you go with the monthly service, which is understandable based on the subsidized pricing of the basic units. Lifetime service is also more expensive so Tivo can make up the difference in the hardware costs.

I'm not only cheap, but I prefer the DIY approach so HTPCs are right up my alley. Tivos used to hold the same attraction since they lacked many of the features that were developed by the hacking community and eventually found their way into production models. Tivos have lost their lustre for me because there's very little I can do with them anymore that hasn't already been done. Tivo has essentially rendered the latest models unhackable, or at least have made it so difficult that it's not worth the effort anymore. HTPCs take this to the next level for me, which is why I prefer them. To me, they pick up where Tivos leave off. 

Tivos are great DVRs. HTPCs are a complete media center with features that go well beyond what a DVR can provide.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> I realize I'm probably stretching things a bit when I get into cost comparisons. There are a lot of intangibles with each platform that make it more or less desirable for certain people. The initial cost of a Tivo is lower than ever, but I believe you're locked into a minimum service contract if you go with the monthly service, which is understandable based on the subsidized pricing of the basic units. Lifetime service is also more expensive so Tivo can make up the difference in the hardware costs.
> 
> I'm not only cheap, but I prefer the DIY approach so HTPCs are right up my alley. Tivos used to hold the same attraction since they lacked many of the features that were developed by the hacking community and eventually found their way into production models. Tivos have lost their lustre for me because there's very little I can do with them anymore that hasn't already been done. Tivo has essentially rendered the latest models unhackable, or at least have made it so difficult that it's not worth the effort anymore. HTPCs take this to the next level for me, which is why I prefer them. To me, they pick up where Tivos leave off.
> 
> Tivos are great DVRs. HTPCs are a complete media center with features that go well beyond what a DVR can provide.


You are leaving you own cost of labor out of your comparison, as two people without any DVR start out, one going with TiVo the other with WMC, the TiVo person will spend less time in setup and maintenance than WMC person, to someone with time on their hands this may make no difference, but for others it may make a big difference. That may be why there is not any DVR that is WMC-in-a-box solution as TiVo has.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

lessd said:


> Almost all users of WMC have a geek factor but not all geeks use WMC over a TiVo. WMC is not real competition for TiVo, TiVo loss of sales to WMC is most likely in the .1% range, their loss of sales to the cable co DVR is most likely 60% - 80%.


I wasn't making any comparisons to DVR consumer metrics. I was just stating why I originally set it up and why those reasons no longer really apply. The only constants have been the fun in setting it up and the ability to plop a broadcast on my desktop.

WMC never had a chance with the majority of people. I've had little to no problem with media center but if a problem arose, I could figure it out and fix it. The majority of normal users wouldn't have the drive to track down problems let alone the patience or skill.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

lessd said:


> You are leaving you own cost of labor out of your comparison, as two people without any DVR start out, one going with TiVo the other with WMC, the TiVo person will spend less time in setup and maintenance than WMC person, to someone with time on their hands this may make no difference, but for others it may make a big difference. That may be why there is not any DVR that is WMC-in-a-box solution as TiVo has.


If there was a WMC-in-a-box solution, I assume it would be set up and configured for you. In that case, the time required to set it up would probably be minimal. You would have to connect any extenders you wanted to use but that is pretty quick. (I'm assuming the OS and drivers are setup for you and you just have to go through the cable card set up.)

I didn't find setting up WMC time consuming or difficult but I don't think it's for the average user who just wants to DVR their shows.

I think the latest Roamio I got took a few hours to update and get set up properly. It was straight forward although it took longer than I expected.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

cram501 said:


> If there was a WMC-in-a-box solution, I assume it would be set up and configured for you.


Ceton was working on just such a box called the "Q," but once the word got out about WMC no longer being supported they abandoned the project. I believe they showed it at the CES a couple of years back, but it was still a work in progress at the time. The "Q" was originally designed to use an embedded version of WMC. The Echo extender was originally meant to be used in conjunction with the "Q" as well as with other WMC PCs.

The amount of time setting up a WMC PC depends entirely on what you start with. If you're building one from scratch then it will certainly take longer. If you're just setting up WMC on a PC that's already been built, the amount of time to set up WMC with one or more tuners vs. setting up a Tivo isn't a significant amount. In fact, chances are every one of you that's participating in this thread using a PC with Windows 7 already has a WMC PC. All you need to do to get it up and running as a DVR is to install one or more tuners and run WMC setup. Of course, it's slightly more complex than that, but only slightly. You'd still need to install drivers and activate a cablecard if using a CC tuner. I don't factor in the cablecard setup because you'd also have to do that with a Tivo.

As for factoring in my labor, I would never do that for something I consider a hobby and a labor of love. It's strictly something I do in my spare time for the pleasure it gives me, as well as the rewards. I wouldn't do it if I thought it was taking up too much of my time. I'd also still be using Tivos if I thought it wasn't time well spent.  If I was doing it for someone else then I'd definitely factor in the time spent building and setting it up, not to mention supporting it afterwards (which is why I don't build them for others). If I had to choose between paying someone else to do it for me or do it myself then I would factor the time I spend as a savings and not a deficit.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> As for factoring in my labor, I would never do that for something I consider a hobby and a labor of love. It's strictly something I do in my spare time for the pleasure it gives me, as well as the rewards. I wouldn't do it if I thought it was taking up too much of my time. I'd also still be using Tivos if I thought it wasn't time well spent.  If I was doing it for someone else then I'd definitely factor in the time spent building and setting it up, not to mention supporting it afterwards (which is why I don't build them for others). If I had to choose between paying someone else to do it for me or do it myself then I would factor the time I spend as a savings and not a deficit.


Your absolute correct about your labor, I do project because I have fun doing them and would not spend the money to hire someone do them for me, I just would not have the project done at all. IE: I like to set up computers from just components, not something I would do for others, even if I could make money doing it as I don't want the support issues, I like picking my own components but I get more than I need and could purchase a completed computer for less money than it cost me to build one, so I understand people that like to tinker doing their own WMC, but that a small number of people compared with total DVR ownership in the USA.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I think we just nailed the one major difference between Tivos and WMC PCs. Tivos are for people that just want to watch and record TV with the ability to stream online content from Netflix, Hulu, etc. HTPCs are for people that like to get their hands dirty and tinker. The amount of tinkering all depends on the combination of hardware and software used in the PC as well as the level of expertise the builder has.

The main vibe I get from HTPC bashers is that they just don't want to get involved with it. Many people that have tried it and reverted back to Tivos mostly didn't want to deal with any maintenance or constant futzing with the PC. You have to want to do it to make it work. If you simply do not want to be bothered then stick with Tivo, plain and simple. If you like a challenge and don't mind devoting some time to a fun hobby, then HTPCs may be something to think about.

I've been doing this for some time now and learned quite a few lessons along the way. This is probably why I'm able to put together stable HTPCs that just plain work the way they should. I've had my share of issues with HTPCs, but they weren't all limited to Windows Media Center. I used to have lots of issues with BeyondTV and Windows XP before I started using WMC. In retrospect, the major issues I had with BeyondTV were probably related to using too many USB tuners in my setup (I was running six at the time). 

I had lots of growing pains with Windows 7 prior to the release of Service Pack 1. I generally wait until at least one service pack has been released for any new Windows OS, but the aspect of using cablecard tuners in my PC so I could access all of my TV from a single box was too good to pass up. There were lots of flaky driver issues back then that I had to deal with. I also had to deal with several defective Intel motherboards that caused me untold headaches unrelated to Windows Media Center. You just can't build a working PC with bad hardware. Since that time, it's been pretty much smooth sailing (knock on wood  ) and everything has been humming along like clockwork. Any issues I ever had with WMC are in the distant past.


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## drebbe (Apr 11, 2012)

The best thing about an HTPC is that is a PC. The worst thing about an HTPC is that is a PC.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

I guess that's it, isn't it? And because it's a PC, along with the extra work, I figure I can also let the kids play PC games on the TV (at least the simple ones) or use Steam Big Picture.


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

I keep reading a lot of people saying that an HTPC requires a lot of work and tinkering, and that hasnt been my experience. Once it was set up, I hit the power button when I want to turn it on, record the shows I wanna watch, or just simply watch TV itself, and then if theres nothing scheduled to record, I shut it off. The next day the same thing. All updates are automatic, so nothing to do there. If I have stuff to record during the day or night I just leave it on. Nothing much else to do. No tinkering and no work, easy peasy.

Now with the Tivo's I've had, thats where all the work was. Since the introduction of SDV and tuning adapters I've had nothing but problems. Everytime I had stuff scheduled to record, I've had to run thru the house at the top of the hour to make sure I dont have black screens or missing channels, and in fact my shows are recording, which is and was a huge pain. If there are errors and I catch them in time I could simply stop the recording, switch the channel and then back again, and start the recording. This is and has always been a lot of work babysitting a Tivo. If I'm gone then of course my shows dont record if theres some error. Tivo has always pointed the finger at the cable company for this but could never explain why on the HTPC I didnt get the same errors. It seems to me that if the errors were caused by the cable company they would be there on the HTPC as well, but they never have been.

In the end, I know its impossible to come into a Tivo forum and make the case for WMC, everyone will pile on saying Tivo is the best of course and its trouble free and WMC is dead and sucks. At the end of the day I have to go with the most trouble free for me and that is WMC. All the apps that Tivo has are useless to me, I use none of them. I think it just has to do with personal preference, and for me WMC has been trouble free unlike Tivo.


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## duckman2000 (Oct 16, 2013)

DocNo said:


> lol - with Tivo I have zero!
> 
> As soon as you use "other than" the qualifier "zero" goes out the window
> 
> ...


Good points. I also have both TiVo and HTPC. The TiVo Roamio is what the family uses every day...they accept it, use it, like it, and there are no complaints about it, well worth the 50 cents a day subscription. It just works.

The HTPC is used only occasionally and is more of a turn it on and tinker with it device (I have used various cards/devices from Happauge, Silicondust, Ceton, etc. over the years). Once in a while there may be something available on it I want to see or record, but for the most part, we could live without it if necessary.

I always recommend to anyone deciding on which one to go with, that they see both in action. If you have a friend that has an HTPC and another with a TiVo box (preferable a Roamio, the current model), take your family members to look at each setup, the space it takes up, the user interface/screens, how to reboot/recover, and also the user search/find capabilities...

For me, the TiVo wins the day-to-day acceptance and use by the family. It just works. They like it and accept it ... and no complaints about something not working


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

MeInDallas said:


> Now with the Tivo's I've had, thats where all the work was. Since the introduction of SDV and tuning adapters I've had nothing but problems. Everytime I had stuff scheduled to record, I've had to run thru the house at the top of the hour to make sure I dont have black screens or missing channels, and in fact my shows are recording, which is and was a huge pain.


This brings up a question that hasn't been brought up (or most likely I missed ). 
Wouldn't an HTPC have to use a tuning adapter just like a Tivo does? If so, do they not present the same problems?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

steve614 said:


> This brings up a question that hasn't been brought up (or most likely I missed ).
> Wouldn't an HTPC have to use a tuning adapter just like a Tivo does? If so, do they not present the same problems?


I would assume so and where do you get the drivers from, TiVo has them built in VIA the USB port.


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

steve614 said:


> This brings up a question that hasn't been brought up (or most likely I missed ).
> Wouldn't an HTPC have to use a tuning adapter just like a Tivo does? If so, do they not present the same problems?


Well you would think so, right? But with WMC I dont have the same issues that I have with the Tivo regarding the black screens/missed recordings/lost channels etc. Tivo has always claimed that it was the cable co, and of course the cable co pointed right back and said nope. The cable co's argument has always been "If our DVR doesnt do it, and the HTPC doesnt do it, well that must mean the problem has something to do with Tivo since only Tivo has the problem, contact them." It's a big comical circle at this point, so I've given up on Tivo fixing the problem.

I have a Ceton 6 tuner card. When you install it (PCIe) you download what is called the Ceton Installer from their website. Install it and it auto downloads all drivers when you start the program and installs them for you. The Ceton Diagnostic Tool keeps everything up to date and lets you know if there is a firmware or driver update.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

steve614 said:


> This brings up a question that hasn't been brought up (or most likely I missed ).
> Wouldn't an HTPC have to use a tuning adapter just like a Tivo does? If so, do they not present the same problems?


The Ceton tuners are supposed to support tuning adapters if your provider uses SDV. FIOS doesn't use them so I've never had to deal with them personally.

As MeInDallas said, Ceton has a diagnostic tool that can be used to check for the latest driver and firmware updates as well as provide an interface for performing the updates. You can specifiy to have it check for any beta firmware or drivers as well. You can also check the status of each individual tuner and numerous operating parameters.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

drebbe said:


> The best thing about an HTPC is that is a PC. The worst thing about an HTPC is that is a PC.


LOL. True dat.  The thing is, I'm reading a lot of posts where people seem to be avoiding HTPCs because of a preconceived notion that it will be a headache to set up and use just because it's a PC. I can't deny that this is the case for some people, but they tend to be in the minority of HTPC users. The latest release of Windows 7 is extremely stable and doesn't suffer from the same glitches that used to plague earlier versions. I used to have my share of problems with Windows 7, but not so much anymore. I've put together at least 7 or 8 HTPCs since the release of Service Pack 1 and they've all been rock solid with no software issues. The only problems I encountered was the result of defective hardware. I went through a stretch of two bad motherboards and several bad memory sticks in the same period. I received replacements for all of them under warranty and never had another problem.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

This just occurred to me, TiVo vs. HTPC is similar to TiVo Desktop vs. PyTivo.
You want a solution that just works (mostly), use TiVo Desktop. If you like to tinker and set things up yourself, PyTivo is the best way to go.


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

steve614 said:


> This brings up a question that hasn't been brought up (or most likely I missed ).
> Wouldn't an HTPC have to use a tuning adapter just like a Tivo does? If so, do they not present the same problems?


I have 3 TA's in my house. The one attached to the HD has been flawless. The one attached to the Premiere has given me a very occasional problem. The one attached to the HTPC gives me a problem about once a month. Why it is so, I don't know.

If I was adventuresome I would swap TA's to see if the performance follows the TA. But I don't feel like doing it.  Plus I don't want to mess up the HD.

Actually, now that I think about it, the HD has the S03 problem so I power down the TA every night for 4 hours with a timer. Maybe that's why it's flawless. Who knows?? 

Maybe I will put all 3 on the timer and see what happens.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DonWidmore said:


> I am puzzled by this comment as all my TiVos have been completely silent. They are located in my bedroom approx. 12 ft from my headboard in a "media armoire" if you remember those from the 90s and at no time do I recall hearing them at all except for intentional noise. Sounds like you had a lemon of some sort- but certainly not like anything I ever owned.
> 
> Part of the reason I know this is once when my Series 2 froze up I went right up to listen to it because I wanted to hear the hard drive run and my wife made fun of me about it- I couldn't hear anything.


Silent is relative since some people hear better than others especially at certain frequencies. I've owned dozens of tivos and can hear any tivo(fan and hard drive) from 15 to 20 feet away in a quiet room. Of course i can't hear a TiVo Mini since there are no moving parts.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

For me, I use WMC and TiVo.

The reason? My provider went encrypted digital and doesn't provide cablecards because there's no law for it (Canada). 

So I have WMC running on a really nice HTPC. But WMC's guide for me is not that great - my TiVo's season passes catch shows that are marked as "repeat" on WMC. So what I do weekly is run through the TiVo To-Do list, then copy that into WMC (manually), rearranging as necessary as the TiVO is dual tuner, but since there's no cablecards, I have a Hauppage Collosus (high-def capture card) connected via component to the cablebox, so single tuner).

The WMC UI is "OK" - it helps if you have a mouse rather than exclusively keyboard navigation, and there's SOME integration with Blu-Ray players.

But there are some things WMC is bad at - like if you plug in a USB drive, it's great it prompts you the first time, but you "lose" it. And there's no way to properly eject it either without minimizing WMC and going to the tray. That and LCDSmartie (which drives a small LCD display on my HTPC) doesn't like waking up from sleep - half the time it loses my LCD display.

But it's nice - I built my HTPC for quietness - so all I hear when it wakes up from sleep is a click and a second as the fans spin up (all temperature controlled so the case fans are practically barely running, and a huge fan on the CPU that turns slower than the tachometer registers (250RPM, but I've seen it hit 400). But it also cost a lot more than my TiVo, and truth be told, I rather have my TiVo. But since I can't, it's the next-best alternative.

And yes, the case fans run at 800RPM and the CPU at 250RPM in normal conditions - the heatsink and CPU are overspec'd so they're idling and producing very little heat and the case is airy so the fans basically are subaudible (800RPM - 13Hz, 250RPM - 4Hz). Yeah I could've gone with lesser components, but when building quiet, I wanted to ensure that parts aren't heating up because it means not having to move as much air.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

SD HDHomeRun Prime 3-Tuner Network TV Tuner
$89.99
http://tech.woot.com/offers/silicondust-hdhomerun-prime-3-tuners-5


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Worf said:


> For me, I use WMC and TiVo.
> 
> The reason? My provider went encrypted digital and doesn't provide cablecards because there's no law for it (Canada).


Man, that sucks.



> The WMC UI is "OK" - it helps if you have a mouse rather than exclusively keyboard navigation, and there's SOME integration with Blu-Ray players.


You shouldn't need a mouse or keyboard to navigate WMC. Any inexpensive WMC remote with IR extender will be automatically recognized and works much better for navigating the menus than either a mouse or a keyboard. The only time you need either one is when you minimize or exit WMC to do something on the Windows desktop. Blu-Ray playback is not natively part of WMC. You need a third party app for that. I convert all of my movies to MKV format and use XBMC for playback. Lots of people like to convert them to iso format and use PowerDVD or Arsoft's Total Media Theater. You'd also need AnyDVD HD to decrypt the movies for playback or when they're ripped to your hard drive. All of these apps cost money, which is why I go with MakeMKV for converting the discs and XBMC for playback. Both are free and work extremely well with minimal setup required.



> But there are some things WMC is bad at - like if you plug in a USB drive, it's great it prompts you the first time, but you "lose" it. And there's no way to properly eject it either without minimizing WMC and going to the tray. That and LCDSmartie (which drives a small LCD display on my HTPC) doesn't like waking up from sleep - half the time it loses my LCD display.


These are things that should be performed on the Windows desktop and not within Media Center. WMC isn't set up to handle standard PC operations like ejecting USB drives. Don't blame WMC because it can't do something it wasn't designed to do. I've heard nothing but problems when allowing a HTPC to sleep, so I leave mine on 24/7 and have no issues with wake up. I've got a small fluorescent display on the front of my HTPC case that can be configured to display all sorts of info about the PC, news, weather, etc. Problem is, the text is too small to be read from 8 or 9 feet away where I sit so I just unplugged it. Displays on HTPC cases are overkill, IMHO.



> But it's nice - I built my HTPC for quietness - so all I hear when it wakes up from sleep is a click and a second as the fans spin up (all temperature controlled so the case fans are practically barely running, and a huge fan on the CPU that turns slower than the tachometer registers (250RPM, but I've seen it hit 400). But it also cost a lot more than my TiVo, and truth be told, I rather have my TiVo. But since I can't, it's the next-best alternative.
> 
> And yes, the case fans run at 800RPM and the CPU at 250RPM in normal conditions - the heatsink and CPU are overspec'd so they're idling and producing very little heat and the case is airy so the fans basically are subaudible (800RPM - 13Hz, 250RPM - 4Hz). Yeah I could've gone with lesser components, but when building quiet, I wanted to ensure that parts aren't heating up because it means not having to move as much air.


Building a quiet PC can definitely cost a bit more. It's a great option if you really need a quiet PC. I have a heat pump in my house and my home theater resides in my finished basement where the heat pump is also situated. I have fans from the furnace and AC running constantly so any fan noise from my HTPC is inaudible when they're running. I also just installed a new water heater that has a built-in heat pump for maximum efficiency. It sits about 6 feet behind my recliner where I watch TV, so I have that added to the background noise when the fan kicks in. I can't hear the PC when I'm watching TV with the heat pumps not running so it's pretty quiet regardless of the background noise.


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## duckman2000 (Oct 16, 2013)

Worf said:


> For me, I use WMC and TiVo.
> 
> The reason? My provider went encrypted digital and doesn't provide cablecards because there's no law for it (Canada).
> 
> ...


Same here. I have also noticed some errors in the WMC based guide that the TiVo guide got right. As for a quiet HTPC, mine is an older HP Compaq desktop. The stock fan was loud. All I did was change out the fan for a quieter one from Arctic and it is almost silent. CPU temps are still good even with high demand. My TiVo Roamio is also quiet and has been since unboxing and setup.

Regarding remotes, the new TiVo Slide Pro keyboard remote is a must at only $49. It is backlit and it's great having a slide out keyboard for some of the apps in the Opera TV store.

I am impressed with the TiVo Roamio, hasn't missed a beat since day one. Family is happy. No complaints. Well worth the 50 cents a day subscription!


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

The WMC guide (and the way it does series recordings based on it) is definitely not as good as Tivo's. And you also don't have advanced wishlist functionality (boolean searches) which I use for all my sports ARWLs on Tivo.

So, as a basic DVR I find WMC to be inferior to Tivo in some respects (feature-wise), but of course there are many more things you can do with the PC in general and with WMC if you wish to go the plugin route.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> So, as a basic DVR I find WMC to be inferior to Tivo in some respects (feature-wise), but of course there are many more things you can do with the PC in general and with WMC if you wish to go the plugin route.


That's interesting that you speak of a basic DVR since Tivo is anything but basic. The search and Wishlist features of a Tivo are definitely better than WMC (and any other DVR platform for that matter). It's one of the features that places it above being "basic." Basic DVRs are what you rent from your cable provider. WMC PCs are at least as good as they are in that respect.

If you're looking for a DVR with all the bells and whistles at your disposal, Tivo probably wins, hands down. If you want a DVR with other features that extend beyond DVR and streaming capabilities, then the HTPC has the edge. It all depends on what you want to do with it.

I'm not sure what the explanation is for the difference in guide data since both Tivo and WMC get their guide data from the same source. I can only assume that Tivo tweaks it slightly with additional metadata. Either that or WMC just doesn't retrieve all of it for display in the guide. If it's in the guide data then I wouldn't be at all suprised if someone hasn't already come up with a hack to display it in WMC. Sounds like I'll have to take a trip over to the Hack7MC website and do a little digging. 

That was easy (took about 20 seconds to locate once I connected to the site). This looks like it might fill the void:

http://www.hack7mc.com/2009/06/getting-tv-series-metadata-with-metabrowser.html


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I just started using MCE again to record OTA from my HDHomeRun. I have one channel I can't get in HD via cable but can via OTA. I've been using a Premiere to record that channel, but it seemed silly to dedicate an entire TiVo just to recording one channel.

However I'm not using MCE to watch them. Instead I setup VAP to monitor the recordings folder. As soon as it's done it's run through Quick Stream Fix and converted to a TS with pyTiVo compatible metadata. I then use autopush which monitors the output folder and auto-pushes the shows to my TiVo via pyTiVo. So they just show up on my TiVo automatically in the same list with all my other shows.

Would be nice if TiVo added direct support for an external OTA tuner on the cable only Roamio's, but I doubt that's going to happen so this is the best I can do for now.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

CoxInPHX said:


> SD HDHomeRun Prime 3-Tuner Network TV Tuner
> $89.99
> http://tech.woot.com/offers/silicondust-hdhomerun-prime-3-tuners-5


Ordered!! Thanks!


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Worf said:


> But WMC's guide for me is not that great - my TiVo's season passes catch shows that are marked as "repeat" on WMC.


If the guide data is incorrect and causes WMC to not record shows, that seems like a larger issue than setting up a computer versus Tivo. This would be a show stopper for many people regardless of setup complexity issue with WMC.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

Right now I only use Media Center for OTA, but in my experience it handles the guide data even better in cases where a show was rescheduled due to a sporting event, local special, or some other silly cause.

In cases like that on my S2 TiVos I have to catch the error and manually search for a future airing of that that episode. WMC seems to pay more attention to the "New" flag than it does to the 28-day rule and it records things that it already thought were a done deal.

That may turn out to be a PITA on cable channels but it has served me well on antenna channels. Comcast is installing service tomorrow, so I may have more input later once I turn a Roamio loose on the rest of the spectrum.

As always, YMMV but I like both systems. MC was a snap to set up and it's smart enough to wake up from sleep mode, record something, and go back to sleep. That was unexpected.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Yes, I could do all those things with a remote control (my PC actually has two - one came with the capture card, the other with the PC case (yes, my PC case has an IR receiver and can push the power button as well)). Both are set up, but in the end, I just use a mouse mostly with it.

Blu-Ray is handled via PowerDVD which has good WMC integration - and is also "mousable" as it pops up a blu-ray control pad (up/down/left/right/enter/color buttons) as necessary). The main reason is mostly needing to jump in and out of the UI means I have to have a keyboard and mouse anyways close by, and the mouse works well enough everywhere that well, the remote's just annoying.

Though, for extender stuff, the Xbox360 remote works really well. But locally, the mouse is faster.

And the thing is, WMC is supposed to be a nice front end to Windows. When I plug a USB key in with media, it pops up and asks if I want to watch videos on it, view images, play music, etc. Of course, it doesn't do "the next step" because if you dismiss it, it doesn't pop up. So if you wanted to show a few images first, you click it. But then you want to watch a movie? Well, Movies doesn't list it! 

And ejecting SHOULD be on the menu - I mean, I can shut down my PC from WMC, I shouldn't need to eject it by going to the desktop, squinting to find the icon and then doing it there.

It's these little shortfalls to the UI experience. I mean, it pops up a nice menu when I stick in a thumbdrive, but there's no way to do it again without physical insertion/removal, and you can't see the content on the drive after you've dismissed it. (Which, oddly, you could when the menu showed).

If you wanted to treat WMC as a super-duper media box that does way more than a Roku or other media streamer, well, it's those little things that break it. 

And yes, I consider thumbdrive management key to the experience - I mean, people come in, hand you a DVD or thumbdrive of photos music and movies and want you to play it. Every other box does it without issues, but WMC makes you drop to the desktop. I don't expect full file management support, but I think a common use case of plugging in a thumbdrive should be handled fully.

Granted, the default settings for Windows mean you don't HAVE to "safely eject" it...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Like I said, WMC isn't designed to do what you're trying to do with a USB flash drive. You're trying to perform a PC task in a WMC environment. It simply doesn't work that way. It's a Media Center frontend, not an extension of the Windows desktop. If you want to perform Windows functions then you need to go to the desktop. FYI - in all the years I've been using WMC, you are the first person I've ever heard of that has complained about this.

Nothing will show up under Movies unless you set it up under Media Libraries. There is nothing automatic about it. WMC is configured to work with static libraries and not removable file storage. However, you could probably add it to the library while the drive is attached if Windows assigns a drive letter to it, which it should. 

You should be able to play DVDs directly from the optical drive using a third party app like PowerDVD, but you may also need a copy of AnyDVD installed to circumvent the encryption. I don't believe WMC has native support for DVDs, but don't quote me on that. I've got all my Blu-Rays and DVDs converted to mkv files and I use XBMC for playback.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> If the guide data is incorrect and causes WMC to not record shows, that seems like a larger issue than setting up a computer versus Tivo. This would be a show stopper for many people regardless of setup complexity issue with WMC.


Guide data in WMC is more likely to list a show multiple times and will therefore be recorded each time it airs unless flagged as a repeat, assuming you have it set up to record new shows only. I have never missed a recording due to a show being flagged erroneously as a repeat. There are some shows that are aired in other countries before they air in the U.S. so they may be flagged as repeats since, technically, they are. WMC shows the original air date in the show description so you might want to take a look at that before blaming WMC for missed recordings.

Shows like Lost Girl and others are aired in Canada weeks or even months before they air in the states. They may be new to us and are first run as far as we're concerned, but WMC knows when they were actually aired for the first time so the record settings need to be adjusted accordingly. I set these shows up to record both new and repeats and never miss a recording. You can check epguides.com for info about the original air dates on just about any TV show that's ever aired to confirm this.

WMC tends to populate the guide with generic data initially (i.e., just show title and generic description of the show with nothing specific to the episode being aired). As the actual air date approaches, the data is updated with the specific episode information and indicates if something is first run or a repeat.

The best thing about WMC is that if something happens while a program is being recorded that interrupts or terminates the recording early (i.e., momentary power outage or loss of signal), WMC automatically revises the recording schedule to pick up the next airing of the same episiode. I don't believe Tivos are capable of doing this.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> Guide data in WMC is more likely to list a show multiple times and will therefore be recorded each time it airs unless flagged as a repeat, assuming you have it set up to record new shows only. I have never missed a recording due to a show being flagged erroneously as a repeat. There are some shows that are aired in other countries before they air in the U.S. so they may be flagged as repeats since, technically, they are. WMC shows the original air date in the show description so you might want to take a look at that before blaming WMC for missed recordings.


But if WMC is recording shows multiple times, that means a tuner is not free to record something else. Isn't the potential still there to miss a recording? And you're spending time deleting the duplicates.

Even though you haven't been affected by the repeat issue, worf has been affected and uses an additional Tivo to resolve the issue.

My point is that these discussions seem to be based solely on hardware comparisons, cost, and complexity of setup. I think guide data quality comparisons are an important factor to consider also.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, WMC will routinely record eps that Tivo won't so you have to play whack-a-mole with the dupes. Whether this is a good thing or not depends on your point of view.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> But if WMC is recording shows multiple times, that means a tuner is not free to record something else. Isn't the potential still there to miss a recording? And you're spending time deleting the duplicates.
> 
> Even though you haven't been affected by the repeat issue, worf has been affected and uses an additional Tivo to resolve the issue.
> 
> My point is that these discussions seem to be based solely on hardware comparisons, cost, and complexity of setup. I think guide data quality comparisons are an important factor to consider also.


In most cases, the guide data gets updated prior to the actual airing of the show. This usually prevents any multiple recordings of the same episode as any duplicate listings will get purged automatically once they're revealed to be duplicates. I've gotten in the habit of looking over my upcoming recordings list on a daily basis and weeding out any unnecessary duplicates before that occurs. It usually takes but a minute or less for me to do this since I do it regularly and there's rarely more than one day's worth of shows to review in the list.

For instance, the list of shows 10 days from today may list every airing of The Daily Show as the description just says something about Jon Stewart and the basic concept of the show. This description is identical for each time listed. I know they're duplicates of the show that aired the night before except for the one that airs at 11 PM so I just delete the others. If I leave them alone, they'll eventually get purged from the list once they're fleshed out and indicate who the guest star is and anything else pertinent to the specific episode.

I have more than enough tuners to deal with any extraneous recordings so it's never an issue. Most of the aforementioned duplicates tend to occur at different times of the day and not in prime time when I need the tuners for most of my scheduled recordings. I could probably get away with as few as four tuners and still not have any conflicts.


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## duckman2000 (Oct 16, 2013)

mr.unnatural said:


> In most cases, the guide data gets updated prior to the actual airing of the show. This usually prevents any multiple recordings of the same episode as any duplicate listings will get purged automatically once they're revealed to be duplicates. I've gotten in the habit of looking over my upcoming recordings list on a daily basis and weeding out any unnecessary duplicates before that occurs. It usually takes but a minute or less for me to do this since I do it regularly and there's rarely more than one day's worth of shows to review in the list.
> 
> For instance, the list of shows 10 days from today may list every airing of The Daily Show as the description just says something about Jon Stewart and the basic concept of the show. This description is identical for each time listed. I know they're duplicates of the show that aired the night before except for the one that airs at 11 PM so I just delete the others. If I leave them alone, they'll eventually get purged from the list once they're fleshed out and indicate who the guest star is and anything else pertinent to the specific episode.
> 
> I have more than enough tuners to deal with any extraneous recordings so it's never an issue. Most of the aforementioned duplicates tend to occur at different times of the day and not in prime time when I need the tuners for most of my scheduled recordings. I could probably get away with as few as four tuners and still not have any conflicts.


Duplicates are an ongoing issue. There is no reason why windows guide should not be able to download the correct guide for a certain geographical area and prevent duplicates in the first place. This is the 21st century and that's what computers are for. It's the little quirks like this that give TiVo the positive nod for day-to-day family use over the HTPC.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Like I said, WMC isn't designed to do what you're trying to do with a USB flash drive. You're trying to perform a PC task in a WMC environment. It simply doesn't work that way. It's a Media Center frontend, not an extension of the Windows desktop. If you want to perform Windows functions then you need to go to the desktop. FYI - in all the years I've been using WMC, you are the first person I've ever heard of that has complained about this.
> 
> Nothing will show up under Movies unless you set it up under Media Libraries. There is nothing automatic about it. WMC is configured to work with static libraries and not removable file storage. However, you could probably add it to the library while the drive is attached if Windows assigns a drive letter to it, which it should.
> 
> You should be able to play DVDs directly from the optical drive using a third party app like PowerDVD, but you may also need a copy of AnyDVD installed to circumvent the encryption. I don't believe WMC has native support for DVDs, but don't quote me on that. I've got all my Blu-Rays and DVDs converted to mkv files and I use XBMC for playback.


Well, I plug a USB drive in, WMC asks me what I want to do with it. It's not a "PC Task" to do that. I click "Play Music" and it shows me the music on the drive. If I back out, poof, it's gone. (Especially annoying if there's multiple media I want to access on the drive).

In practical use, WMC should simply ignore it and not give me the option since it avoids all the issues to begin with, but since it prompts me, I expect it.

And as such, it makes sense that if I need to do something special to the drive (i.e., stop it) then it should also be done in the WMC environment, because so far, everything I do stays within the WMC environment.

And I regard it as one of those things that makes life unpleasant. Because all WMC needs to do is simple - nothing. If I'm supposed to drop to the desktop, then so be it - don't give me the option to play music/view photos/etc on the USB drive I plugged in and I'll happily drop to the desktop. But once you offer me the options, well, I expect full necessary behaviors - i.e., able to do all the options on the list and not just one. And stopping it as necessary. Hell, it would be nice if it put up a "USB" category and save all the effort. Because letting me partially view the contents within WMC and then asking me to drop to the desktop is a stupid UI.

I don't know if WMC can play DVDs. When I insert a DVD, it prompts me if I want to use PowerDVD or WMC, but I'm not sure if WMC plays DVDs because of PowerDVD. Of course, if I insert a BD, PowerDVD pops up automatically (in the WMC UI mode - WMC doesn't shell out to PowerDVD. It's not perfect since PowerDVD is skinned for Windows 8 flatness, but it integrates with WMC as well as it can).

As for duplicate recordings - that only happens for me if I have conflicts - if I hit cancel, sometimes it schedules in both shows again (you'd think Cancel would be "don't do anything" but it really means "Find a way to schedule in conflicting program")

My bigger problem is that the guide says "(Repeat)" for programming that is definitely NOT repeat. It really makes the "Record new episodes" setting really useless because they don't record anything as the guide is marked as repeats.

Hell, it's as if the TiVo 28-day thing is patented - if I set it to record repeats and first run, well, it'll be aware of episodes in the guide as it is, but if they're shown again beyond the guide, it'll happily record it yet again. Or rather, it's fair game after it's recorded as it loses the "will be recorded at another time" mark (the blue exclamation point).

All in all, WMC is decent. It's not perfect - there's a lot of rough edges in the WMC UI (like removable drive handling - the fix is to simply not do anything and make me drop to the desktop if I want to view images/music/movies). And the guide is far from perfect (I've had to change the postal code several times as guide data mysteriously stops coming in sometimes).

TiVo wins in the "make TV easy" department - I can count on it to record (can't trust a cablebox), guide data is generally very accurate and comes in without fault (I've had to manually "fix" WMC when it somehow stopped getting guide data, as well as incorrectly tagged shows) and it just works. It's limited, yes, but it works and I can trust it, count on it and rely on it. WMC, despite its failings, is decent. I don't quite trust it to work 100% (mainly because of the capture card and the IR blaster, but the guide data is another niggling issue), but well, given my choices, it's acceptable.

And my new HTPC at fixes the reliability issues - the old PC I could expect failures daily. The new one, well, I can go days or weeks before something didn't record properly - it rarely mis-tunes a channel, and the capture card generally resets when it goes to sleep (it has a tendency to crash when powered up for hours requiring a reboot). But with WMC going to sleep, the card naturally resets so recordings generally work.

Given a choice, I'd wish for TiVo to work again. Or for TiVo to release an app that gives me access to their scheduler so when I copy the recordings from it to WMC, I don't have to do it through my TiVo first. But WMC is a fairly strong showing. Especially given the dearth of TiVo alternatives.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

duckman2000 said:


> Duplicates are an ongoing issue. There is no reason why windows guide should not be able to download the correct guide for a certain geographical area and prevent duplicates in the first place. This is the 21st century and that's what computers are for. It's the little quirks like this that give TiVo the positive nod for day-to-day family use over the HTPC.


WMC can only display the guide data it receives. I don't know how many times I have to say this to get it to sink in. Guide data is always a work in progress that tends to get updated with each daily download. The guide data for shows 10 or 11 days in the future is mostly a placeholder for that show. As the air date approaches, more info becomes available for that show that tells you whether it's first-run or a repeat.

Worf - I don't know what else I can say to you with regards to the USB device non-issue (because that's what it is for the rest of us). Would you prefer that when you plug a drive into the PC while in the Windows desktop that you're prompted to use WMC to play the files or would you rather have the option to use Windows Media Player or some third party app? FYI - Windows Media Player is not one of the default players in WMC, IIRC, although I believe you can set it up to be. Music and video files will only play via WMC if you have the drive mapped in a Media Library. If you're getting the pop-up window asking if you want to play the files then it's coming from the Windows desktop and not WMC.

You have to understand that the Windows Desktop and Windows Media Center are two completely different and distinct interfaces. WMC is not configured to recognize USB devices on the fly, such as when you plug one in while using WMC. The Windows Desktop takes over at this point with the aforementioned pop-up window. If you want to use the option to play the files then you'll probably have to exit WMC or minimize the window in order to do so.

My recommendation would be to copy the files you wish to play from the USB drive to a folder you have already mapped as one of the Media Libraries for music or videos. You can then access the files in WMC and play them.

That's how things work. Sorry if that doesn't meet your needs but that's the way it is and it's not going to change.


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## duckman2000 (Oct 16, 2013)

mr.unnatural said:


> WMC can only display the guide data it receives. I don't know how many times I have to say this to get it to sink in. Guide data is always a work in progress that tends to get updated with each daily download. The guide data for shows 10 or 11 days in the future is mostly a placeholder for that show. As the air date approaches, more info becomes available for that show that tells you whether it's first-run or a repeat.


My point is that it should know if a show's airing is the first airing in my geographical area. My local software should know if a show has already been recorded, preventing duplicates. This is all simple database stuff. The software and technology is there to make the Guide better and more reliable, but whoever has the power and ability to make the guide implementation better and more reliable chooses not to. If Guide data is to blame and local software can't correct duplicates/errors then get better Guide data.

For no family complaints, no duplicates, no weeding through duplicates to delete, better guide, I would rather pay, oh say 50 cents a day, for a TiVo subscription.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, it's way more than the guide data, it's how the software uses it to decide whether or not to record. In that respect Tivo is superior to WMC (and really just about every other DVR), without a doubt.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The guide data indicates the original air date of any given program. There is no differentiation as to geographical location. If something airs in the UK on the BBC before it airs on BBC America, guess which date is listed? The guide data is accurate in this regard. WMC doesn't provide the guide data, Zap2it does. ***** to them about it if it bothers you because it's got nothing to do with WMC. Once you realize this you can easily deal with any issues of duplicate recordings for these types of shows. 

WMC will indicate any show as a repeat if the original air date is different than the date being recorded because it actually is a repeat. I just don't understand why so many of you are not grasping this concept. If Tivo doesn't list it that way then they are clearly tweaking the guide data for you. You're paying for the privilege of using their guide data so it's nice to see that you're getting something for your money. 

Guide data is free with WMC so I can live with the extremely minor inconvenience I have to deal with. You get what you pay for, but I still get a lot for my money. It's pretty easy to figure out which shows are being shown in the US after they've aired elsewhere. I tend to get them via torrents during the initial run instead of recording them later. I'm already up to episode 8 of Lost Girl. The second episode is being aired on the SyFy channel on 1/20/2014 and is being shown as a repeat. The original air date is listed in the guide as 11/17/2013. The fact that I watched it about six weeks ago via torrent confirms the fact that it is a repeat. I just checked my torrent site and the file was posted on 11/17/2013. This original air date is also confirmed by epguides.com.

I'm sorry, but it appears people are complaining because WMC is providing accurate guide data, but not that the Tivo data is potentially lying to you just for your convenience?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

There are lots of little differences between the way Tivo and WMC handle recording tv. But overall they time shift tv shows, have a tv guide, ways to automate the time shifting of tv shows and ways to find the shows you recorded. As long as you aren't too fussy or particular they both are quite capable of doing that job in terms of functionality.

The big difference between the two is one is an appliance and one is more of a project/hobby. The project can be appliance like at times after the project is initially completed and then refined after some months of use, but still seems best suited for those with a computer hobbyist at home. One who can quickly fix any niggling issues the project may have and enjoys fixing those issues. 


A few years ago I thought WMC was the way to go. I didn't like the Premiere. It was only 2 tuners at the time. It lacked responsiveness. Netflix app crashed. Menus still in SD. I was surprised at how so much of it seemed like a backward step from the great experience I had with the Series 2. No extenders either. You had to buy a PRemiere for each tv. So I tried the WMC route. 4 tuners was a godsend as was having a cheap extender. For less money I got more. I even put a 4 core i5 in my machine. This baby was fast. I could also use as a computer. And surprise, it had its positives on how it handled recorded tv compared to a Tivo too. That's why I currently have a WMC setup. 

But now? Roamio is the way to go. Roamio has corrected most of the negatives of the Premiere. IT is much more responsive by all accounts than the Premiere was. Tivo has 6 tuners now as many as 1 cablecard can support. Switching hard drives is easy. Tivo has extenders now. It does mobile streaming outta the box. And more.... On top of that MS dropped support of WMC. And potential improvements to the WMC ecosystem from 3rd parties, like small, quiet and efficient extenders from Ceton, haven't been up to snuff to say the least.

I don't see a reason to choose anything but a Tivo Roamio today. IF you do think of one then you are one of those exceptions to the rule. Like I want 20 tuners and 20 tb of recording space and I already have 4 xbox 360s at home and I like monkeying around with computers.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

trip1eX said:


> I don't see a reason to choose anything but a Tivo Roamio today. IF you do think of one then you are one of those exceptions to the rule.


For me, one of the main reasons is the price. A Roamio can be over $1000 for some people with no other extenders or other hardware. Yes, there is resell value, but many people do not want -- and end up not going through -- that hassle.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm sorry, but it appears people are complaining because WMC is providing accurate guide data, but not that the Tivo data is potentially lying to you just for your convenience?


No, we're complaining once again that you're intent on glossing over real differences and advantages that Tivo has over WMC for some people because they don't affect you personally. See a pattern here? Don't turn into Bigg.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I guess you didn't notice the confusion emoticon at the end of that statement because I'm confused about what the issue is here. Perhaps there is a disconnect in the discussion regarding guide data that I'm missing? If so, I wish you would enlighten us as to any facts that have not been presented.

I've been trying to explain how WMC gets guide data and how it evolves as the air date grows near. I'm also trying to get a grasp on the duplicate recording issue that's discussed so maybe we're just not on the same page as to what's going on. I'm starting to get the feeling that the discussion is going in two entirely different directions on the same topic and I'd like to make sure we're all talking about the same thing. I'm not trying to gloss over anything with regards to either platform.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with respect to what affects me personally in this discussion other than the USB drive scenario. I've been trying to avoid anything along this line and keep the discussion relevant to the differences between the two platforms and keep my personal feelings out of it. If I swayed from this line of thought then I apologize as it was never my intent to do so. The last thing I want is another WMC vs. Tivo pissing contest.

And that's the second time today you accused me of being like Bigg.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

I built an MCE PC, and ended up coming back to TiVo because of how much of a mess MCE is. See my experiences here:

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4466

The limitations of TiVo that I describe in that now dated post have been largely resolved by the TiVo Mini and Roamio.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

On the guide data issue, MCE's guide data sucks, but TiVo's has gone downhill in the last decade as well.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Thanks, slowbiscuit. You had to go and poke the bear.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Thanks, slowbiscuit. You had to go and poke the bear.


I actually just went on the forum by chance. My first hand experience with both platforms, and realization that MCE sucks bigtime is useful info for the OP.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Not useful at all since your skewed opinion has no bearing on the thread topic. Now, shoo. Go away. The grownups are trying to have a conversation.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Not useful at all since your skewed opinion has no bearing on the thread topic. Now, shoo. Go away. The grownups are trying to have a conversation.


And who might that be??? Both of you are acting quite immaturely, with both of you insisting that your own personal experiences hold much more widely than they do. You have a skewed opinion also, that you have by now repeated much more often than Bigg has.

You have no right to tell somebody to "go away".


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

If anybody reading this Thread has not gotten the answer they need after 93 posts, they will never get the answer, this Thread should be closed and not turn into name calling.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> And who might that be??? Both of you are acting quite immaturely, with both of you insisting that your own personal experiences hold much more widely than they do. You have a skewed opinion also, that you have by now repeated much more often than Bigg has.
> 
> You have no right to tell somebody to "go away".


My opinion may be skewed, but not 100% negative like Bigg's. He insists that WMC should never be used by anyone, period, because he could never get it to work for him. I have always supported Tivos and I will continue to do so as they are by far the best standalone DVR platform available. I just think that WMC offers more features than a Tivo. They both have their pros and cons and that's what thread was intended to discuss.

I told Bigg to go away because once he gets involved in the conversation it tends to deteriorate rather quickly. I'm certainly not blameless for past flamefests, but I'm doing my best to keep any current threads from heading in that direction.

FYI, I have never injected my opinion into a thread on this topic unless someone else has opened the door on a discussion of WMC. My opinion is all it is and anyone following threads such as this would know that by now. I've never tried to force it on anyone as gospel or convert them from being a Tivo user. Use whatever platform works for you.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> My opinion may be skewed, but not 100% negative like Bigg's. He insists that WMC should never be used by anyone, period, because he could never get it to work for him. I have always supported Tivos and I will continue to do so as they are by far the best standalone DVR platform available. I just think that WMC offers more features than a Tivo. They both have their pros and cons and that's what thread was intended to discuss.
> 
> I told Bigg to go away because once he gets involved in the conversation it tends to deteriorate rather quickly. I'm certainly not blameless for past flamefests, but I'm doing my best to keep any current threads from heading in that direction.
> 
> FYI, I have never injected my opinion into a thread on this topic unless someone else has opened the door on a discussion of WMC. My opinion is all it is and anyone following threads such as this would know that by now. I've never tried to force it on anyone as gospel or convert them from being a Tivo user. Use whatever platform works for you.


I have no objection to your opinion injection into these threads; I view your opinion as a valuable contribution to the community of an alternative they may not have thought much about. But I would point out two things:
1. Every deteriorating thread has you responding at length to Bigg in the deteriorating part.
2. IMO, the majority of the time that it deteriorates down to the personal attack level (like now), it is you and not Bigg that takes it that far down.

Both of these can be avoided.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> I have no objection to your opinion injection into these threads; I view your opinion as a valuable contribution to the community of an alternative they may not have thought much about. But I would point out two things:
> 1. Every deteriorating thread has you responding at length to Bigg in the deteriorating part.
> 2. IMO, the majority of the time that it deteriorates down to the personal attack level (like now), it is you and not Bigg that takes it that far down.
> 
> Both of these can be avoided.


I can't argue with anything you're saying because it is true. Like I said, I'm doing my best to avoid any further such transgressions on my part. There was no personal attack on Bigg or anyone else, just a friendly jab (as indicated by the emoticon and the brevity of my response).


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Not useful at all since your skewed opinion has no bearing on the thread topic. Now, shoo. Go away. The grownups are trying to have a conversation.


I'm sorry that you don't think my first hand experience on the topic is worth anything, even though that's what this thread is about.

However, it is relevant to this thread, and I posted it, so the OP can learn from my mistakes and misconceptions about the [lack of] ability of MCE to be a useful and functional DVR system.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

OP here. Twice now, I've come close to hitting the button to just close the thread. I haven't requested it because I am (slowly) building my own HTPC right now and hope to bring back stories about what I learn.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dtivouser said:


> OP here. Twice now, I've come close to hitting the button to just close the thread. I haven't requested it because I am (slowly) building my own HTPC right now and hope to bring back stories about what I learn.


Good for you, I hope you are successful as the more options people have the better things are.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

dtivouser said:


> OP here. Twice now, I've come close to hitting the button to just close the thread. I haven't requested it because I am (slowly) building my own HTPC right now and hope to bring back stories about what I learn.


Can't say I blame you for that. I've been guilty of letting my passion for HTPCs override rational behavior and cause me to respond with more emotion than common sense. For that I deeply apologize. I hope that in some small way you did come away with some positive information regarding Windows Media Center to help you on your way.

FWIW, I'm a huge fan of both platforms and have been for some time. I've owned and modified literally dozens of various Tivos since they were first introduced. I followed hacking developments for Tivos from the days when the Tivo forums were part of the AVSForums before they split out and became the Tivo Community Forum. I was also an active participant at the "other" Tivo forum that discussed hacks that will forever remain nameless here (the TCF software filters out certain words, phrases, and URLs and censors them because they don't want anyone here to know about the good stuff).

I think the main reason I switched to HTPCs is the fact that you can't do much to hack a Tivo anymore. Most of the features enjoyed by Tivos users today were developed and used by the hacking community long before they made their way into the Tivo software. Now that I can no longer tweak my Tivos, I simply got bored with them. HTPCs give me the option to tweak to my heart's content. I don't view HTPCs as being superior to Tivos other than the fact that they are more flexible. As a standalone DVR I don't think there's a better product on the market than Tivo.

FYI - I used to go by the user name of captain_video here and I still use that name in various other forums.


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## captain_video (Mar 1, 2002)

Like he said.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

heyted said:


> For me, one of the main reasons is the price. A Roamio can be over $1000 for some people with no other extenders or other hardware. Yes, there is resell value, but many people do not want -- and end up not going through -- that hassle.


The costs of an htpc are similar to a Roamio plus. A 6 tuner card alone is $300. Factor in the cost of a hard drive, mb, cpu, ram, case, power supply and a copy of Windows and there is little money to be saved especially given the appliance-like nature of a Roamio in comparison and its resale value and the lack of support going forward for WMC.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

OH btw one thing annoying about WMC is it does change guide data at the last minute and so say you select a show to record in the guide a few days in advance it can end up not being recorded because later the listing slightly changed in the guide. 

It mostly has done that with sporting events for me. I'm more on the look out now for it. But sometimes the time can change slightly or the listing description changes and boom your show is not recorded. 

It is probably due to the fact I often manually record sporting events straight from the tv guide. I don't think it affects my season passes any.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

trip1eX said:


> I don't see a reason to choose *anything* but a Tivo Roamio today.


There are a significant number of people that just want a CableCARD DVR with just two or three tuners without having to pay a service fee. It is possible, for those that like to or do not mind tinkering, to build a HTPC with DRV capabilities with the prices shown below. All functional parts are new except the hard drive.



trip1eX said:


> A 6 tuner card alone is $300.


I do not need six tuners. I paid $114.95 for a two tuner Hauppauge WinTV-DCR-2650. I could have paid $90 for a new three tuner HDHomerun Prime.



trip1eX said:


> Factor in the cost of a hard drive


I paid less than zero dollars for a used TiVo Premiere, and I used the hard drive from it. I made a small profit from the sell of some of the Premiere components.



trip1eX said:


> , mb


I paid $167.99 for a ZOTAC Mini-ITX Motherboard D2550ITXS-B-U.



trip1eX said:


> , cpu


$0 -- Included with the mb



trip1eX said:


> , ram


I paid $37.68 for 4GB Crucial DDR3 2 2GB Memory Modules. I could have paid just half that with 2GB total.



trip1eX said:


> , case


I used a TiVo Premiere case. I paid less than $0 after I sold some of the Premiere components.



trip1eX said:


> , power supply


$0 -- Included with the mb



trip1eX said:


> and a copy of Windows


$0 -- I use open source software. It works for people that do not have copy-protected channels.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

To build a decent and equivalent machine to a TiVo, the HTPC is nearly identical in cost. I built mine for exactly the same as the TiVo cost. You have to compare apples to apples, i.e. 6 tuner to 6 tuner.

The only reason not to use a TiVo Roamio is if you want DirecTV or DISH. If you're on cable/FIOS, the Roamio is clearly the best option. There is nothing else close on the market. MCE is completely worthless, the cable company DVRs suck, and they are nearly always more expensive than TiVo anyways, and far more limited in every way.

If it weren't for TiVo, I'd be paying more for DirecTV.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> The costs of an htpc are similar to a Roamio plus. A 6 tuner card alone is $300. Factor in the cost of a hard drive, mb, cpu, ram, case, power supply and a copy of Windows and there is little money to be saved especially given the appliance-like nature of a Roamio in comparison and its resale value and the lack of support going forward for WMC.


I only paid $229 for my InfiniTV 6 on Black Friday weekend. The new SiliconDust 6-tuner model is reportedly going to be sold for only $150, which is why the 3-tuner models are selling for less than $100 now. I fully expect to see a price drop in the Ceton models if they want to be competitive with SiliconDust.

Consider that most people have already invested in a desktop PC or laptop. If they're running Windows 7 or Windows 8 or 8.1 Pro they can add a tuner and use Windows Media Center for minimal investment. I've always recommended that anyone interested in trying Windows Media Center to start off with the economical approach to see if it might be something they'd like to use. If they like it then they can invest in a dedicated PC for Media Center. You can find all kinds of turnkey off-the-shelf PCs for $300 or even less if you shop around, although the more popular approach is to build it yourself with exactly the components you want.

Guide data can definitely change at the last minute, especially for sporting events. I always select them manually to record in WMC and I've never missed one that I wanted to record. If shows don't get recorded due to fluctuating guide data then that's not something you can blame on WMC. It only records what you tell it to. If the guide data changes then it's coming from an outside source that WMC has no control over. Tivos can easily suffer from the same guide data changes so it's unrelated to either platform.



Bigg said:


> MCE is completely worthless...


Which is clearly just your opinion. As a satisfied WMC user (and only one among thousands), I heartily disagree.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> I only paid $229 for my InfiniTV 6 on Black Friday weekend. The new SiliconDust 6-tuner model is reportedly going to be sold for only $150, which is why the 3-tuner models are selling for less than $100 now. I fully expect to see a price drop in the Ceton models if they want to be competitive with SiliconDust.
> 
> Consider that most people have already invested in a desktop PC or laptop. If they're running Windows 7 or Windows 8 or 8.1 Pro they can add a tuner and use Windows Media Center for minimal investment. I've always recommended that anyone interested in trying Windows Media Center to start off with the economical approach to see if it might be something they'd like to use. If they like it then they can invest in a dedicated PC for Media Center. You can find all kinds of turnkey off-the-shelf PCs for $300 or even less if you shop around, although the more popular approach is to build it yourself with exactly the components you want.
> 
> Guide data can definitely change at the last minute, especially for sporting events. I always select them manually to record in WMC and I've never missed one that I wanted to record. If shows don't get recorded due to fluctuating guide data then that's not something you can blame on WMC. It only records what you tell it to. If the guide data changes then it's coming from an outside source that WMC has no control over. Tivos can easily suffer from the same guide data changes so it's unrelated to either platform.


An MCE PC with decent specs is about the same as a TiVo with lifetime, at least with was back with the Premiere XL4.



> Which is clearly just your opinion. As a satisfied WMC user (and only one among thousands), I heartily disagree.


Some people may be satisfied with unreliable, sub-cable company DVR functionality. Most will not be.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Some people may be satisfied with unreliable, sub-cable company DVR functionality. Most will not be.


I mainly use the Roamio's now but my WMC has been running strong for the last 28 months without a hiccup. WMC solved my multi-room problem a few years ago and has been rock solid since I set it up.

Overall I think the Roamio is a much better solution for the vast majority of users but WMC has been very reliable for me. For those that want to tinker, WMC is a good set up. I still record shows with it but I use it less and less now.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Some people may be satisfied with unreliable, sub-cable company DVR functionality. Most will not be.


I don't know of anyone that would be satisfied with such a product. If you're implying that WMC falls into that category they we'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Any DVR, whether it be a Tivo, WMC PC, or cable company box, has the ability to record and play TV with a fair amount of reliability. I've never used a cable company DVR personally, but I compared them with all other available options when I switched to FIOS and discounted them for a laundry list of reasons. My brother-in-law uses one of the FIOS DVRs and has no complaints. I tried for years to get him to switch to a Tivo, but he just wasn't interested.

HTPCs and Tivos are at different ends of the same spectrum. At one end you have a DVR that works right out of the box with no assembly required. You plug it in, run setup, activate your cablecard, and you're good to go. Tivos are for those that just want to watch TV and aren't into tweaking PCs and such. OTOH, Tivo does offer a lot of extra features that go beyond what a basic DVR offers. The software is quite mature and it has a lot of sophisticated features unavailable to other DVR platforms, mainly due to copyrights held exclusively by Tivo. If you just want a device that you can set and forget, Tivo is definitely for you.

On the other end you have the hobbyists and tinkerers. These are the folks that make up the bulk of HTPC users. We like to experiment with new things and modify them to do more than what a simple DVR can do. Since WMC runs on a PC, it is not without problems inherent to that platform. Anyone who has built a HTPC has probably had some growing pains along the way. The ones that stuck with it and worked them out have found that WMC can be a very enjoyable experience. They've also discovered that the platform can be expanded to do far more than any other DVR. The one great thing about it is that if you don't like the way something looks or behaves in WMC you can generally change it to suit your tastes.

The point is, HTPCs aren't for everyone. I've mentioned this time and time again. Just because one individual had a bad experience with it is no reason to condemn the entire platform. I know I'm simplifying this because certainly more than one individual has had bad experiences with HTPCs, but the vast majority of them were people with little PC expertise that quickly discovered they were in over their heads. Early Windows 7 based HTPCs were problematic due to buggy software and conflicting drivers more than anything else. Every HTPC I've put together since the release of Service Pack 1 for Win 7 has been rock solid, regardless of what hardware I was using with it.


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## waterchange (Jun 29, 2010)

heyted said:


> There are a significant number of people that just want a CableCARD DVR with just two or three tuners without having to pay a service fee. It is possible, for those that like to or do not mind tinkering, to build a HTPC with DRV capabilities with the prices shown below. All functional parts are new except the hard drive.


If one could get over the caveat of buying used, a $300 lifetimed TiVo Premiere is a great DVR appliance that fits this requirement. Just another option to consider for folks making this decision with these constraints.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Of course, one irritant I have with WMC is that the list of other showings of a show is limited. On a popular show like NCIS where there's plenty of syndication and time-shift channels, it's impossible to see the entire list - there's so many showings that it really only gives you a week's worth of showings. 

This is important for me as I need to reschedule the recording due to conflict. But I can't because the listings don't go far enough to record it! Of course, I can go to the guide and manually reschedule it there, but that's an annoyance.

There's probably a setting somewhere to increase the number of showings allowed or to show all showings, but I can't find it. 

And shows that always show as "repeat" that are new episodes like Pawn Stars - which also only give you a week's worth of showings, so it's even more difficult to schedule.

I know on TiVo it shows everything it knows about.

Though I wish both would let me skip by day - there are so many showings that scrolling can be annoying. Only to remember that the showing is probably beyond the end of the list. I know when new episodes come out, so if I could ship forward by day it would be much better beyond the endless scrolling. At least TiVo shows you the date - WMC doesn't so if you miss the date it's a bunch of scrolling up and down.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't know of anyone that would be satisfied with such a product. If you're implying that WMC falls into that category they we'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
> 
> Any DVR, whether it be a Tivo, WMC PC, or cable company box, has the ability to record and play TV with a fair amount of reliability. I've never used a cable company DVR personally, but I compared them with all other available options when I switched to FIOS and discounted them for a laundry list of reasons. My brother-in-law uses one of the FIOS DVRs and has no complaints. I tried for years to get him to switch to a Tivo, but he just wasn't interested.
> 
> ...


That's all great in theory. If there was a good piece of DVR software out there, it would work in practice. The ability to build a DVR with 50TB of storage and 20 tuners is great, in theory. The problem is, there is no good DVR software out there. I could see MCE as a back-up system with an OTA card backing up a CableCard TiVo, or for occasional use at a vacation home, but other than something like that, it just doesn't cut it. It's a nightmare to use, the interface is horrible, and it's unreliable. TiVo is for everyone who wants anything more than the cable company DVR.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Worf said:


> Of course, one irritant I have with WMC is that the list of other showings of a show is limited. On a popular show like NCIS where there's plenty of syndication and time-shift channels, it's impossible to see the entire list - there's so many showings that it really only gives you a week's worth of showings.
> 
> This is important for me as I need to reschedule the recording due to conflict. But I can't because the listings don't go far enough to record it! Of course, I can go to the guide and manually reschedule it there, but that's an annoyance.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I've never had to deal with this issue so I'm completely unaware that it exists. However, you can narrow down the list if you're only interested in recording a show on a specific channel for which you've configured the series recording. Select the "view scheduled" option at the top of the recorded tv list and then select "Series" from the list on the left of the next screen. Locate the show you're interested in from the list on the right. Select it and it will show a list of all shows airing on that specific channel, depending on how you have the series record settings. In my case, I have it set to New only for NCIS. Since NCIS is currently airing reruns, nothing was listed for upcoming shows on the channel specified for my series recording.

FWIW, I just did a search for all showings of NCIS and it returned 165 showings from Monday, January 20th, to Wednesday, January 29th, or about 10 days worth of shows.

If you want other channel options to record from then set up a temporary series recording for that channel and repeat the process described above. While I haven't confirmed it, the list should display all upcoming shows airing in the current guide data listing for the channel specified. You can manually download the latest guide listing to make sure it extends as far as possible. Go to the main screen, select "settings" under "Tasks". Select "TV", then "Guide", and then "Get Latest Guide Listings". The guide data is downloaded in the background and a pop up alert will let you know when it's complete.

A simple solution to avoid conflicts is to get more tuners. I have more than enough tuners in my setup so there are never any conflicts, which is why I've never encountered this problem. One of the primary reasons to go with WMC is the ability to add as many tuners as you need so you never have to deal with this type of situation.

I'm pretty sure WMC will automatically reschedule a recording for the next airing on the channels you've specified if it runs into a conflict. You can go into the record settings for a show and change the specific channel setting to just record HD only or SD only and it will pick the next scheduled showing to record for any conflicts.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Must resist the urge.


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## hoyty (Jan 22, 2003)

Bigg said:


> It's a nightmare to use, the interface is horrible, and it's unreliable.


I am not sure if you are just egging on Mr. unnatural or someone on the MCE team at Microsoft did something to you personally or what but this is a bit much. I have used a TiVo since the day the DirecTV model came available and MCE since it was a standalone XP based. I think they both have their places and at times due to TiVo hardware issues my MCE box has been more reliable. If you install Windows 7 vanilla (no additional software to muck things up) and have a network based tuner with reliable PC hardware I will put it up against a TiVo on uptime any day. Same for missed recordings.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

hoyty said:


> I am not sure if you are just egging on Mr. unnatural or someone on the MCE team at Microsoft did something to you personally or what but this is a bit much. I have used a TiVo since the day the DirecTV model came available and MCE since it was a standalone XP based. I think they both have their places and at times due to TiVo hardware issues my MCE box has been more reliable. If you install Windows 7 vanilla (no additional software to muck things up) and have a network based tuner with reliable PC hardware I will put it up against a TiVo on uptime any day. Same for missed recordings.


I'm saying it because I used MCE and then got a TiVo because MCE sucked. The HTPC is good for certain things, but being a DVR isn't one of them.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Interesting. I've never had to deal with this issue so I'm completely unaware that it exists. However, you can narrow down the list if you're only interested in recording a show on a specific channel for which you've configured the series recording. Select the "view scheduled" option at the top of the recorded tv list and then select "Series" from the list on the left of the next screen. Locate the show you're interested in from the list on the right. Select it and it will show a list of all shows airing on that specific channel, depending on how you have the series record settings. In my case, I have it set to New only for NCIS. Since NCIS is currently airing reruns, nothing was listed for upcoming shows on the channel specified for my series recording.
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I chose NCIS as it's one of the two. And "new" does work, but for other shows (like say, Pawn Stars that History endlessly repeats and hides new episode in) it doesn't because they're all marked as repeat, while TiVo has them as new. Without TiVo, I would miss them.
> ...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I didn't realize you were up north. You folks have a completely different set of problems to deal with. I can't tell from your posts whether or not you can use a cablecard tuner in your PC, but if you can, that would certainly alleviate your conflict issues and avoid having to use an IR blaster with a cable box.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

No cablecard - while the cable providers DO use cablecard boxes, NONE support third-party products. Otherwise I'd toss the crap out and plug 'em into my TiVo.

Instead, what I use is a Hauppage Collosus, which is a high-def capture card. It connects to the cablebox via component (and can capture up to 1080i) and streams out h.264 encoded video. It features an IR blaster and appears to WMC as a regular digital tuner. Unfortunately, the WMC support is limited to a single "tuner". (There are two possible units - you can use the HD-PVR which is a USB2 external capture box, or the Collosus, which lives inside the computer hooked to the PCIe bus).

Needless to say, the Collosus is better because when WMC sleeps the PC, the card resets (both devices have problems where teh firmware crashes - on the HD-PVR, you MUST reboot the computer. With the Collosus, most of the time, the sleep/wakeup resets the firmware and un-wedges the card. Still, it does fail from time to time).

Like I said, it's an FCC law that requires US cable companies to support cablecard and third-party boxes. In Canada, with no such rule, the cable companies are greedy and basically lock you out.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm familiar with both the Colossus and the earlier HD-PVR. It does appear to limit you to a single device per PC since it uses the IR blaster to control a cable box. That severely limits the ability to record multiple shows simultaneously so I see why you have such concerns about conflicts. Unfortunately, I don't see where you have much choice for recording HD programs if you can't use a cablecard tuner or a Tivo.

The only other available option I see is if you have multiple PCs with a Colossus or HD-PVR in each one, which can tend to get expensive in a hurry, not to mention all the extra boxes. Newegg has refurbs on sale all the time so maybe you could pick up an inexpensive dual core 2.0GHz or better unit on the cheap. It's not the perfect solution, but something you might want to consider.

I did see mention in an article on the missing remote site that you could possibly use two Colossus' in SageTV since it will work with capture cards. Windows 7 doesn't recognize capture cards and requires the installation of a separate utility in order to see the Colossus as a digital cable tuner. There was also a hint that you could get two of them working with Win 7 with a little help from Hauppauge. Here's a link to the article:

http://missingremote.com/review/hauppauge-colossus


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Some guy built a triple tuner DirecTV-fed system using HD-PVRs. It took up like half a rack. Definitely not ideal, that's for sure. Do the satellite companies up there have decent DVRs?


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Well I started this thread a month ago and today I have to report that I'm giving up on using a PC for a PVR.

What I wanted:
1) Reliability (Roamio has very poor reliability for me)
2) Retire the Blu Ray player and Apple TV
3) Be able to do other things like play games

What I invested:
A) I assembled a great new PC with InfiniTV PCI
B) I have experience building IT servers so felt qualified to do this
C) Lots of time. I anticipated lots of time, I figured this would be a fun project

What I've experienced: Abysmal reliability... 
. The InfiniTV is a network-based tuner (despite it's PCI connectivity) and the PC software just occasionally can't find any of the 6 tuners. Reboot fixes it.
. Windows Media Center occasionally locks trying to play live or recorded TV. Reboot fixes it.
. Numerous issues with a PC connected through a receiver via HDMI. If you boot it while watching another source-- display won't sync. Sometimes WMC complains there is no audio device. Reboot fixes it. Doing unnatural things to the display driver INF seem to get around this.
. I bought an infrared remote control with intention of making it work, then programming my Harmony with the right codes. IR remote just doesn't work for me at all; WMC doesn't see the keypresses.
. I also bought a 2.5Ghz Logitech cordless keyboard as a 10-foot device but it's range is really more like 3 inches.
. ...so even controlling WMC is annoying
. Oddly, the tuning adapter has been rock solid. The main problem with my Roamio has to do with TA issues, but for WMC I have not had to reboot the TA even once.
. Windows doesn't natively play Blu Ray discs. So I'd have to spend some money on software for that -- the software is of a similar price as a dedicated BD player. (My BD player locks up on some discs so it needs to be replaced one way or another)

So I tried XBMC instead...
o Gorgeous UI, really good at playing lots of non-live media, but:
o New capability in XBMC to play Live TV never really worked for me. There are SO many things to download and install and configure to get this working. At one point I actually got a picture through WMCserver but it's not reliable. I spent hours reading forums and wikis and don't really enjoy this sort of tinkering. Audio capabilities of the TV vs. the 7.1 receiver confuse it, for example.
o Tried a different live TV engine (npvr) for XBMC which never quite worked.
o Tried yet another live TV engine for XBMC which also never worked.

So I tried MediaPortal...
o Ditto on the ability to play non-live media, but
o Ditto on live TV

So to recap, what I was willing to invest was time but a month later, I've lost interest in goofing around with what feels to me like half-baked downloaded software.

So please don't start a flame war over this. I've been careful to say "this was my experience" and I've already read that some of you have rock-solid WMC deployments. Thoughtful comments on the technology (rather than my obviously feeble PC skills) are welcome of course.

Should I load Linux on this PC and try mythTV?


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Another thing I noticed is that WMC doesn't seem to do a great job of organizing lots of recordings. I put a huge disk drive in this PC and with six tuners, fantasized about just recording everything on the major networks.  But WMC doesn't organize recorded shows in the UI nearly as well as Tivo; I think with hundreds of recordings I'd have a tough time browsing the list for something fun to watch.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

dtivouser said:


> Should I load Linux on this PC and try mythTV?


If you can't get WMC to work reliably with the Ceton? Sure it's worth a shot, but Myth is an order of magnitude more complex than WMC.

But I use an HDHR Prime and it just works so can't say one way or the other how well the Infini will work with Myth.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Well, all I can say is that WMC isn't for everyone. I must say that the issues you're having are somewhat surprising so I have a few questions.

1. Did you purchase the InfiniTV 6 PCIe version or the ETH? The ETH is reported to have some issues for some people, which is why I went with the PCIe version. The InfiniTV tuners show up under network devices in Windows Device Manager so they are, by definition, network devices. Unless you're setting them up to be shared across your network there shouldn't be an issue with them being recognized on the PC they're installed in.

2. Did you run the Digital Cable Advisor prior to setting up WMC for a cablecard tuner? I'm not even sure you could run the setup with a cablecard tuner without running DCA first.

3. Did you check the diagnistics utility for the Ceton tuners and make sure you have the latest firmware and drivers? If not, give it a try (it's accessed from the Start menu in Windows). The first window tab tells you if there's a newer version of either. The last tab allows you to perform the update. Note that you'll have to rerun WMC setup if you update either one. Make sure you release the tuners and then rediscover them after rebooting (I forget which tab it's on, but possibly the first one).

4. Loss of video when switching inputs on your AV receiver or switcher is an EDID issue. You can perform a simple hack to correct it or invest in a Gefen HDMI Detective to fix it. Cost is about $100, although I recently picked up a used one on ebay for $50 plus shipping. I believe monoprice.com offers a similar device that's less expensive. These threads may be of some assistance, depending on what graphics card you're using:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1227161/edid-overrides-to-solve-bitstreaming-issues-for-ati-5xxxs

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1091403/edid-override-thread

5. What hardware are you using? Is it all new or recycled? Please list your motherboard and CPU and any other devices. Make sure you have all of the latest drivers and BIOS updates.

6. XBMC won't work for live or recorded TV until you get the issues resolved in WMC. ServerWMC and pvr.wmc use the services from Media Center for live TV, recording, and the electronic program guide. I'm on the verge of trying this myself to see if I like it. I currently use XBMC for playing Blu-Rays and DVDs ripped to mkv files and it's really sweet.

7. You need a compatible IR receiver to use with the PC. Any receiver that comes with an inexpensive WMC remote should work. I personally prefer the HP WMC IR receiver (about $10-15 on ebay). It should be plug and play. I use a Harmony One and it works beautifully with WMC and XBMC. Check this link: http://superuser.com/questions/2868...c-functions-to-my-logitech-harmony-one-remote

8. Download a copy of MakeMKV for free. Go to the MakeMKV forum and look in the announcements section to get the latest registration codes. You can rip your Blu-Rays to mkv files and retain the main movie with HD audio and whatever subtitles you want. Just check the options to keep and let 'er rip. No need to buy expensive software for Blu-Ray playback.

9. If your provider encrypts any channels that you receive, Windows Media Center is your only PC option for recording them. There are other options for using a cablecard tuner, but WMC is by far the easiest to set up.

My suggestion is this - Wipe the hard drive and start over with a clean install of Windows 7 (you didn't mention if you were using WMC with Win 7 or Win 8/8.1) with just the basic hardware. When asked how you want to receive updates, indicate that you'll select it later and finish the install. Install the latest drivers for the chipset, LAN, graphics card, and any other hardware, but do not install the tuners or associated drivers yet. Update Windows to the latest version. There will be approximately 150 required updates so it will take a while. There is one update that's listed but unchecked (I believe it's something like KB971033). Leave it unchecked, right click on it, and hide it. You do not want this update as it causes WMC to do weird things on occasion. Start the update and then go grab a sandwich and a beer and watch some TV. Check back in an hour or two to see if it's finished. Repeat the update process until it says you're up to date.

NOTE: I usually have a mouse and keyboard connected for the initial Windows installation and then use the WMC/Harmony remote to navigate WMC after opening it from the Start menu.

Once you've installed all of the basic Windows components, drivers, and updates, download and install Microsoft Security Essentials and run a scan when completed. Shut down and install the tuners. Fire it up and install the drivers and then check the diagnostics page. If everything looks good (it should show the tuners and indicate that WMC is not configured to use them yet) open up WMC and run the initial setup. When that's done, go to the main WMC menu and you should see a listing marked Extras (scroll up or down to see it. See if the Digital Cable Advisor is listed (the Ceton software installation should download it automatically). If it is, run it and let it complete without disturbance. If it's not shown, do a google search and download and install it manually and then run it.

Go to the main WMC menu and navigate to the Tasks -> Settings option. Select TV and then select TV Signal Setup. Follow the prompts and it will discover all tuners and configure them for use with Media Center and then download the latest guide listings. You can look through the other setup options for configuring the audio, TV monitor type, etc. Make sure you have the tuner connected to your cable or antenna and see if you can get live TV. You should be able to watch live TV channels at this point.

If you have any additional software you'd like to install, now's as good a time as any to do it. I like to install the Shark007 codec pack to provide playback support for all types of audio and video that WMC may not handle by default. If you're running 64-bit Windows (which you should), you'll need both the standard codec pack plus the 64-bit add-on. After installing them, run the setup from the Start menu by right clicking the setup option and select Run as Administrator. Check the default settings on the main page and then close the window. Do this for both the standard and 64-bit options. Aside from that, I would keep any other software installation to a bare minimum. In fact, the less, the better.

Let me know if I can be of any assistance if you wish to pursue it further. Good Luck!

BTW, there are other options available for the way you want recordings to be listed in the Recorded TV list. If you don't like the way WMC does it, there are other apps you can install to improve your user experience.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

dtivouser said:


> Well I started this thread a month ago and today I have to report that I'm giving up on using a PC for a PVR.
> 
> . I bought an infrared remote control with intention of making it work, then programming my Harmony with the right codes. IR remote just doesn't work for me at all; WMC doesn't see the keypresses.
> . I also bought a 2.5Ghz Logitech cordless keyboard as a 10-foot device but it's range is really more like 3 inches.
> ...


MCE is the only software I know of that can handle flagged CableCard content. Since HBO requires flagging, that pretty much cuts anything else out, even if you have a reasonable provider like Verizon or Comcast that doesn't over-flag.

I have the same issues with my wireless stuff. I just got a bluetooth adapter to use an old Apple Bluetooth board with my MCE machine (I don't use MCE anymore, just as an HTPC, my TiVo has the CableCard), and after installing the 235MB driver package for the adapter, I find out it has range issues, as does my little Lenovo trackpad/keyboard thingy. The only thing, ironically that doesn't have serious range issues is the cheap no-name wireless mouse, so the Lenovo and Bluetooth receivers are now in plain view on USB extension cables at the edge of my TV stand, where they seem to work pretty well at around 9-10' away. I get the Bluetooth thing, as it wasn't made for an HTPC... but the Lenovo one is just totally unacceptable. It should do at least 20-30 feet...


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Hi mr.unnatural, my hunch the last couple days was indeed to wipe the system and start over. I think npvr and some of the other solutions are starting to step on each other.

To your questions:
1) I did buy the PCIe version. With what it does to the network config in the OS, I figure I probably should have bought the ETH version to keep things simpler but it's interesting to hear about reliability issues with that. I bought a HD Homerun Prime in the woot sale a couple weeks ago but it's still in the box... once I saw TV on a PC I wanted more without sharing the PCIe tuners.

2-3) Yes to both, and I did get to the point of recording 6 things at once in WMC, so I got over the hump for the Ceton-specific configuration. I have all checkmarks on the Ceton diags; if any of them show issues I know that nothing else will work. But the whole tech stack has shown to be very fragile for me. 

4) I have the INF hack but if I ever plug a different monitor on this PC, it will need to be able to take the same resolution as my TV.

5) All-new hardware. Briefly: GA-Z87X-UD3H, i3-4130T, ST4000DX001, 2x8GB KHX16C10B1K2/16X, SSR-360GP, CNPS9500AT, LG WH14NS40, SST-LC10B-E-USB3.0, PCE-N53 (connected via RT-N66U), K400 keyboard. Existing receiver is a RX-V667, TV is a Samsung C8000. So, trying to stay low power and hoping to use the GPU on the i3. So far, system performance has been excellent; task manager and resource monitor show low usage. I'll get a dedicated GPU if I have to but doesn't seem necessary so far. I dedicated 1GB RAM to the i3 GPU. Windows 7 Professional, patched.

6) ServerWMC was promising but XBMC playback performance was broken until I configured it down to 2.0 stereo audio vs. 5.1. I'd like to keep multichannel afterall.

7) I bought a SANOXY remote but none of the keys have effect in WMC other than the joystick mouse. I did find the WMC option in the Harmony config ("find devices similar to Windows"). There was no software to go with the IR receiver unfortunately to test or remap keypresses.

8) I'm set up with BD ripping tools already... tons of mkv's and iso's of my BD collection awaiting this HTPC! Slysoft works great for me. My family, oddly, expects to come home with a Redbox BD and watch it immediately (pfft).

9) I know that everything but network TV has Copy Once set. Not sure if they are encrypted. Tons of SDV around here too (Time-Warner North County San Diego, former Adelphia territory so we have Motorola equipment).

So yeah, a reinstall might be worth a try.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

My rig is set up somewhat special.

I have two monitors - the case has one and the other one is HDMI to my receiver. All the time I can switch to HDMI via the receiver and video will come out. Sometimes I need to minimize and maximize WMC as it initializes it to 1024x768, but once you minimize it, it goes back to 1080p and works fine. About half the time when I turn off the receiver, it switches to the built-in display (which when it does, I like because I can navigate WMC without having to turn on the TV and receiver - useful to see if I need to reboot it). In an ideal world, I would have them set to mirror, but it doesn't like it.

The only really bad things I dislike about WMC are the lack of dates in the listings and on the recorded show list (+1 to TiVo to see what was recorded when), the odd limit to the number of shows it will show (I move NCIS around because the "new" episode is always on the timeshift channel and I have a conflict. But for some reason or other, "Other Showings" usually stops just short of the requisite showing, so I have to use the guide to set it up), and the inaccurate guide (a lot of "new" episodes get marked as "Repeat" - usually the very first showing of a new episode is New, but the "proper" showing (what I would get if I stuck an antenna on the roof), 3 hours later, is marked as Repeat. Technically correct, but damn I wish it could be handled better.

Oh yeah, one major nit I have is when I'm in the scheduled recordings view, and I delete a show to resolve a conflict. Half the time, WMC will then clear the list, spin, then re-display the list. Except now it starts at the top. Which is annoying because you have to scroll back down to where you were. PITA.

For me, the Collossus is nice (until it dies). The firmware sucks, but because my WMC goes into sleep mode quick and often, it ends up resetting the firmware so instead of having to reboot daily (as I have to with the HD-PVR), I can really just leave it for a LONG time. Single tuner works fine so far - my TV habits are such that network shows are high priority and I watch the cable channels on alternate timeslots.

Other than a bug with PowerDVD (stick in a blu-ray and it'll spawn another copy of PowerDVD even if it's already running. It'll work, but exiting the mess usually requires quitting WMC).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

dtivouser - Your configuration looks solid as far as your parts selection. It should make a fine HTPC when you work out the kinks.

4) I assume this is some sort of hack to change the resolution to match your specific TV monitor. You should be able to configure this in the TV monitor setup menu without resorting to a hack.

5) I assume you're using the HD audio and GPU in the Core i3 CPU for bitstreaming to your AV receiver. Make sure you have the Management Engine drivers installed or HD audio won't work. A lot of people miss this one.

6) You should be able to get 5.1 audio with no problem. There is a quirk that may require you to turn off the menu sounds in WMC. For some strange reason this can affect multi-channel audio output. You may also have to configure your speakers in Windows as stereo rather than multi-channel. I have a 7.1 surround setup and it works fine with WMC and XBMC.

7) I question this choice as I'm not really familiar with this remote. It appears to be a Windows remote, but it's not specifically for Media Center. If you go with something other than a Harmony remote I strongly advise you get one that specifically states that it is WMC compatible. If it's a compatible remote and IR receiver you shouldn't need any special software to use it or have to remap any key functions. I've got my Harmony One set up for a Windows Media Center PC and it performs all of the basic functions I need in every aspect of WMC and XBMC.

Here's a good WMC remote that's usually available on ebay for about $10-15 (don't let the Amazon price scare you) and is sometimes packaged with the HP IR receiver:

http://www.amazon.com/HP-Replacement-Center-Control-5069-8344/dp/B000PJ0FSS/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_12

Here's the HP IR receiver I use that is very popular among WMC users (shown with a mini HP remote, but can be purchased separately or with the above HP large remote):

http://www.amazon.com/Remote-Control-Receiver-Emitter-Vista/dp/B00AYE6JDO/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_8

9) The copy once flag is set by your provider. Some providers flag all channels while others only flag a few, such as HBO and PPV. I'm lucky enough to be on FIOS so the only flagged channels are HBO and Cinemax, which I don't subscribe to. I really wanted to give SageTV a try when they came out with their DCT patch that allowed the use of cablecard tuners. Unfortunately, before I could purchase a license they were sold to Google and the SageTV store website shut down.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Worf - I feel you pain regarding the list of shows to be recorded. Most of the time the list remains stable and allows me to delete shows with no problem. There have been a few occasions where it did exactly as you described and constantly kept refreshing the screen so I couldn't navigate the list. Exiting the screen and entering it again usually resolved it.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

dtivouser said:


> 9) I know that everything but network TV has Copy Once set. Not sure if they are encrypted. Tons of SDV around here too (Time-Warner North County San Diego, former Adelphia territory so we have Motorola equipment).
> 
> So yeah, a reinstall might be worth a try.


And you're stuck with WMC given that everything except the locals is flagged, Myth is not a good option for you.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> And you're stuck with WMC given that everything except the locals is flagged, Myth is not a good option for you.


And that's the one reason so many people use WMC instead of third party media center front ends. It's the only game in town for a PC DVR if your provider flags any content. Otherwise, you need to go with Tivo or your provider's DVR. If you're lucky enough to have most of your channels flagged as copy freely then there are several other options available, such as Media Portal, SageTV (if you can find an available license), XBMC, and a few others.


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

dtivouser, if you do decide to give it another go, I highly recommend this: http://www.recordedtvhd.com/

It is a WMC add-on that organizes shows by folders and other options. Makes the viewing experience much more like a Tivo. In some ways better.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

That's a great little add-on for WMC, especially if you tend to hoard a lot of TV shows. I tried it for a while and liked it a lot. The only thing I disliked is that I tend to watch everything I record within a few days so there was never more than one listing under each icon. Some shows would have no art associated with them so it would essentially be a blank placeholder, IIRC. OTOH, I believe you have the option to gather art from various sources automatically or do it manually. Definitely worth giving it a try since it has a 30-day free trial.

What's funny to me is that when you visit the link, most of the shows used as examples are either no longer on the air or were canceled for whatever reason. I think they need to update the web page with shows that are current.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

OK I am re-installing Windows 7 right now with minimal hardware. I will let you know how it goes. It looks like the management engine gets installed with the Gigabyte MB driver kit. I bought the SANOXY remote mostly for the IR receiver (I think I paid $6 for both) figuring if nothing else I could train my Harmony One with codes from the SANOXY. That HP remote looks nice.

In this re-install I'm playing a hunch regarding that Seagate drive. A couple times I noticed weird hangs going into Disk Management. I wonder if there's a compatibility issue with the hybrid. I ran ST diags on the drive which came back clean. So this install I've left the Seagate powered off and I'm installing to a different disk drive.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

WO312 said:


> dtivouser, if you do decide to give it another go, I highly recommend this: http://www.recordedtvhd.com/


Sweet, I will give that a try once WMC is stable!


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> That's a great little add-on for WMC, especially if you tend to hoard a lot of TV shows. I tried it for a while and liked it a lot. The only thing I disliked is that I tend to watch everything I record within a few days so there was never more than one listing under each icon. Some shows would have no art associated with them so it would essentially be a blank placeholder, IIRC. OTOH, I believe you have the option to gather art from various sources automatically or do it manually. Definitely worth giving it a try since it has a 30-day free trial.
> 
> What's funny to me is that when you visit the link, most of the shows used as examples are either no longer on the air or were canceled for whatever reason. I think they need to update the web page with shows that are current.


I recently had a software update so he is actively improving it. I use my HTPC for archiving, and one neat thing about the program is not only does it organize by folder, but by season within the folder. I have a number of season passes set up for long time series and the season folders slowly get filled up as they air.


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

dtivouser said:


> In this re-install I'm playing a hunch regarding that Seagate drive. A couple times I noticed weird hangs going into Disk Management. I wonder if there's a compatibility issue with the hybrid. I ran ST diags on the drive which came back clean. So this install I've left the Seagate powered off and I'm installing to a different disk drive.


Are you installing the operating system on a different drive totally than what you are saving your TV files to? Or are you putting everything all on one drive?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

MeInDallas said:


> Are you installing the operating system on a different drive totally than what you are saving your TV files to? Or are you putting everything all on one drive?


Good point. However, you can create separate partitions for the OS and the RecordedTV folder, which is probably the best option if using a single drive. Just create a small partition (50-60GB should be more than enough) for the OS and then create a new simple volume in the remaining space when Windows has finished installing. If you used the entire drive for installing the OS you can shrink the partition and then add the new one at the end. I generally prefer to install the OS on a SSD and then use a standard drive for files and recordings. It makes boot times a whole lot faster.

One additional tip - once you have Windows installed and updated and all drivers installed, make a backup iuso of the OS drive using Windows Backup. Create a Repair Disk while you're at it. That way, if things still aren't quite right, you don't have to do a complete reinstall with all of the drivers and updates. You just restore the OS drive image using the Repair Disk and point it to the backup image. It will wipe the OS partition and write the image to the drive. The restore process only takes about 10-15 minutes and is a whole lot faster than waiting for 150 updates to install, not to mention the OS and drivers.

As for the Management Engine drivers and anything else related to the Intel CPU, check the Intel and Gigabyte websites for the latest and greatest as they tend to be more current than what's on the installation disc that comes with any motherboard. The Intel website may have newer drivers for the CPU than the Gigabyte site.


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

The reason I asked is that I was using a WD20EURS in the beginning for everything, and I had done just what you are saying with the separate partition, and I was getting a lot of errors. I read a lot of the threads over at The Green Button and everyone kept saying to put the OS on an SSD which would help, and so I did, and nearly every issue I had encountered disappeared after that. I picked up a small SSD off Newegg for around $50 and its been running like a champ since then


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Dallas, I've been considering that today. Without that Seagate hybrid drive, setting things up today has been much more smooth. My plan was to have the OS and recorded TV on the big hybrid drive. Now I'm thinking about returning it and getting an SSD and a 2-3tb conventional drive instead. 

Good point, too, on getting an image backup. Today was yet another 850MB download of Windows 7 patches.


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

Newegg has the exact same SSD I purchased on sale right now for $49.99 until midnight tonight.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...814-_-EMC-012814-Latest-_-SSD-_-20721106-L05A

I would just keep the hybrid drive and use as the 2nd recorded TV drive, and just add the SSD to the mix.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

My WMC setup got a lot smoother once I resintalled Win7, regulated it to mostly just DVR-use/tv viewing - hooked to a 24" computer monitor in a back room, used 360 extenders in every room with an hdtv and installed a SSD boot drive.

Not sure the SSD boot drive corrected anything per se, but it does allow you to reboot in less than 30 seconds which is great if you get an error and also great to do occasionally as a preventative measure. Also I set logins to automatic and WMC to automatic startup so it goes right into WMC upon reboot. I can pretty much reboot in the middle of 4 recordings if I want to and miss very little of each recording (1-2 minutes max) as it will automatically start recording what is was recording before the reboot. I used to schedule reboots but stopped after I thought a few problems I had were because of those. Might be some voodoo science conclusion, but I just occasionally reboot the thing instead.

Oh and make sure your tuner temps are south of recommended 65 degrees. Check this in WMC under Ceton under the top menu option whose name escapes me right now. As part of my rehaul this past spring I also tried to improve the cooling with better fans and airflow and I think this also helped me though I can't be sure. 


I didn't and don't have to deal with TAs. Thank goodness.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

heyted said:


> There are a significant number of people that just want a CableCARD DVR with just two or three tuners without having to pay a service fee. It is possible, for those that like to or do not mind tinkering, to build a HTPC with DRV capabilities with the prices shown below. All functional parts are new except the hard drive.
> 
> I do not need six tuners. I paid $114.95 for a two tuner Hauppauge WinTV-DCR-2650. I could have paid $90 for a new three tuner HDHomerun Prime.
> 
> ...


You forgot-

$200 -- 20 hrs spent finding deals and parts plus assembly/configuration at minimum wage of $10/hr

priceless -- Living somewhere that has no copy - protected channels


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> I only paid $229 for my InfiniTV 6 on Black Friday weekend. The new SiliconDust 6-tuner model is reportedly going to be sold for only $150, which is why the 3-tuner models are selling for less than $100 now. I fully expect to see a price drop in the Ceton models if they want to be competitive with SiliconDust.


Yes sales and price drops happen. But I fully expect Roamios to drop in price too. And even Tivos go on sale occasionally. Amazon was getting rid of Roamio Pros the other week for $423.



mr.unnatural said:


> Consider that most people have already invested in a desktop PC or laptop. If they're running Windows 7 or Windows 8 or 8.1 Pro they can add a tuner and use Windows Media Center for minimal investment. I've always recommended that anyone interested in trying Windows Media Center to start off with the economical approach to see if it might be something they'd like to use. If they like it then they can invest in a dedicated PC for Media Center. You can find all kinds of turnkey off-the-shelf PCs for $300 or even less if you shop around, although the more popular approach is to build it yourself with exactly the components you want.


All that goes in the fine print and asterisk section.

If you are buying a $300 turn-key pc and then a 6 tuner card which is $300 right now then you are looking at $600. A whole $150 over the price of a Roamio Plus today. And for what? For the headache of configuring the thing? For having a form factor you can't put in the cabinet in your living room? You wouldn't have a remote either. Your temps might be too high in that $300 pc. YOu won't have a real copy of Windows. You'll have to remove bloatware. A $300 pc is not likely to be living room quiet. Nor as efficient. ...this list goes on.

Next time you go buy a couch let me know. I will remind you that you can save money by building your own and that you probably already have materials in your garage that can help you further reduce your cost.



mr.unnatural said:


> Guide data can definitely change at the last minute, especially for sporting events. I always select them manually to record in WMC and I've never missed one that I wanted to record. If shows don't get recorded due to fluctuating guide data then that's not something you can blame on WMC. It only records what you tell it to. If the guide data changes then it's coming from an outside source that WMC has no control over. Tivos can easily suffer from the same guide data changes so it's unrelated to either platform.


Well I can blame it on WMC. What you say is like saying don't blame Apple your Macbook Pro failed. It actually was the chip they were using that failed.

It should be smart enough to record what I wanted. I don't recall having this problem with Tivo.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Worf - I feel you pain regarding the list of shows to be recorded. Most of the time the list remains stable and allows me to delete shows with no problem. There have been a few occasions where it did exactly as you described and constantly kept refreshing the screen so I couldn't navigate the list. Exiting the screen and entering it again usually resolved it.


Actually, if it continually refreshes, it means WMC just did a guide update and is reindexing and doing a bunch of scheduling. It's annoying, but give it a minute and it'll settle down.

But in my case, I delete a conflict, and it refreshes the entire list once. It's annoying because you lose your place in the list. And when I redo the scheduling weekly, I end up having to delete a lot of shows, so when it happens (always near the end of the list), scrolling back to the end, deleting, scrolling to the end, deleting gets old, fast.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> All that goes in the fine print and asterisk section.


Yet it should be common sense when you think about it.



> If you are buying a $300 turn-key pc and then a 6 tuner card which is $300 right now then you are looking at $600. A whole $150 over the price of a Roamio Plus today. And for what? For the headache of configuring the thing? For having a form factor you can't put in the cabinet in your living room? You wouldn't have a remote either. Your temps might be too high in that $300 pc. YOu won't have a real copy of Windows. You'll have to remove bloatware. A $300 pc is not likely to be living room quiet. Nor as efficient. ...this list goes on.


The InfiniTV 6 has been going on sale for $250 quite often recently (in fact, it's on sale right now). I keep getting e-mails from Ceton about sales so I suspect you're going to see a permanent price drop on the horizon. You can buy a used InfiniTV 4 on ebay for less than $100 these days. The SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime was on sale for only $80 with free shipping a day or two ago from TigerDirect, IIRC. The new six-tuner HDHomeRun Prime is supposed to be selling for only $150 when it comes out so I suspect Ceton will drop their price even further to be competitive. Newegg has a huge inventory of refurbed PCs that would work as a basic HTPC and sell for under $100 on occasion.

You forgot to factor in the cost of lifetime service on your Roamio, which drives the cost up considerably higher.

FYI - there are lots of HTPC cabinets available that look like any other AV component. I've got a Silverstone case that looks right at home next to my Onkyo Pro preamp/processor. Here's a link to the same case with a silver finish (mine's all black):

http://www.silverstonetek.com/product_legacy.php?area=en&model=lc14

I don't recall ever having a temperature issue in my HTPC. The Cetons do run warm, but nothing too extreme that would cause any problems.

How is it not a real copy of Windows? Just because I'm not using it as a desktop PC doesn't change the OS. You only have to deal with bloatware if you buy a preconfigured PC from a major manufacturer. You can always wipe the drive and reinstall Windows without all of that crap. I usually remove it from any preconfigured PC.

Any PC can be made virtually dead silent with the right cooling devices.

Configuring Windows Media Center shouldn't be any more difficult than setting up a Tivo. I just load up the software, make a few settings and I'm good to go. It's a little more involved than that, but not all that complicated. Gremlins can creep into the situation on occasion and Murphy's Law is always present so there's no foolproof way to set up a HTPC, although it's been ages since I've personally had any HTPC issues.

I can't argue about the effeciency with respect to power usage. However, newer hardware is more efficient than ever before. My Intel NUCs probably use about the same power as your Roamio. You also have to factor in that a HTPC performs the same tasks as multiple individual components so the overall power usage is probably going to be a wash.



> Next time you go buy a couch let me know. I will remind you that you can save money by building your own and that you probably already have materials in your garage that can help you further reduce your cost.


I also dabble in woodworking on occasion, so what you're suggesting isn't as farfetched as you make it sound. Building a wood frame for a couch isn't all that difficult. I just don't have the upholstering skills to make it work, although I'm sure I could learn them if I had the time to invest.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Worf said:


> But in my case, I delete a conflict, and it refreshes the entire list once. It's annoying because you lose your place in the list. And when I redo the scheduling weekly, I end up having to delete a lot of shows, so when it happens (always near the end of the list), scrolling back to the end, deleting, scrolling to the end, deleting gets old, fast.


I don't have that issue, at least not with that frequency. I generally check my upcoming recording schedule and delete extraneous airings of shows that I know to be repeats but the guide data isn't fully updated yet. I click on the show, select delete, and I'm back in the same spot in the list. Occcasionally it will refresh following the deletion and take me back to the beginning of the list, but it doesn't happen all that often. In fact, I checked the list this morning and deleted at least a half dozen shows from the list without having to scroll back through it to find the next show to delete.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> You forgot to factor in the cost of lifetime service on your Roamio, which drives the cost up considerably higher.


TiVo is a bit more expensive now, as they are $1100 now, but back when they were $900 with Premiere, TiVo and an HTPC were very close in price. You could make the HTPC maybe a few $ less, but it could also be a bit more depending on how much stuff you put in it. And that's not even including teh $99 for Windows, as I had a license from school that I used.



> Any PC can be made virtually dead silent with the right cooling devices.


True.



> Configuring Windows Media Center shouldn't be any more difficult than setting up a Tivo.


Well, sort of. The initial set, maybe. Until it starts having problems and crashing all the time. Then it's DEFINITELY not the same.



> I can't argue about the effeciency with respect to power usage. However, newer hardware is more efficient than ever before.


You can get the power consumption way down with a 35W processor, high efficiency power supply, etc, although the TiVo Roamio has even those most efficient HTPC beat by a pretty good margin.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't have that issue, at least not with that frequency. I generally check my upcoming recording schedule and delete extraneous airings of shows that I know to be repeats but the guide data isn't fully updated yet. I click on the show, select delete, and I'm back in the same spot in the list. Occcasionally it will refresh following the deletion and take me back to the beginning of the list, but it doesn't happen all that often. In fact, I checked the list this morning and deleted at least a half dozen shows from the list without having to scroll back through it to find the next show to delete.


Yeah, happens a bit more often to me. Though I would really appreciate if it warned me it might happen... or if I could determine when it would do it.

Could just be a side effect of the fact my guide data is horribly wrong and shows are marked repeat when they're new runs.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Well, sort of. The initial set, maybe. Until it starts having problems and crashing all the time. Then it's DEFINITELY not the same.


And this does not occur for everyone that uses WMC. You just ran into bad luck and decided not to pursue a solution.



> You can get the power consumption way down with a 35W processor, high efficiency power supply, etc, although the TiVo Roamio has even those most efficient HTPC beat by a pretty good margin.


If we're talking about just using the PC as a DVR then I'd agree. However, add in a standalone DVD or Blu-Ray player and the overall power usage is pretty even. My wife wastes more electricity by leaving lights on all over the house so whatever power my HTPC uses is inconsequential.

People have to realize that a HTPC is not something you just buy off the shelf in most cases. You have to want to put in some time and effort to get things to work the way you want. Some hardware platforms work with a simple install and others just drive you nuts. If you're worried about the cost of the hardware and the amount of electricity it uses then you should stick with Tivo because it probably will cost you a bit more in these areas. Overall, it's going to pay off dividends in the convenience it offers as well as the extra features it provides in a single box. The actual value it delivers depends on what you expect from it as well as the amount of time involved in getting it to the point of being stable.

Aside from being a perfectly competent DVR for my needs, it is the only platform that allows me to play ripped DVDs and Blu-Rays with all of the extras stripped out, leaving just the main movie. This does require the use of third party software and codecs as WMC does not support mkv or Blu-Ray playback natively. However, the software is free in some cases and is not difficult to install and use. There may be some media players that also allow you to play mkv files, but then that means you need a 2nd box in addition to the DVR.

I've gotten so accustomed to using HTPCs that I can no longer imagine my life without them. I don't like spending a lot of time working out bugs like I did when I first got started with the hobby. These days, I build them and they just work. Obviously, this doesn't occur as easily for others. I don't use any magic formula nor do I spend a lot of time hand picking hardware. I used to follow guidelines in some of the recommended hardware threads at the AVS Forums and elsewhere, but mainly I just buy whatever hardware suits my needs these days. I mostly like to base my systems on the Intel Core i3 processors as they are cost effective and provide more than enough processing power as well as integrated features to keep costs down (i.e., integrated HD audio and video, negating the need for a standalone graphics card or sound card). The latest Haswell models have apparently fixed the 24 fps bug that many of the purists complain about (i.e., dropped frames once in a millennium when playing movies). I'm not quite than anal so the HD 4000 graphics in older CPUs is fine for my needs.

FWIW, Tivos aren't perfect either. I have not personally experienced the vast majority of reported issues, but these forums are littered with complaints about Tivo problems. The point being that neither platform is trouble free no matter how much you want to paint that rosy picture for Tivo.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

My reinstall is going well, sort of. I'm having an issue I haven't seen before which is that the SDV channels show no picture, though I do get sound. Ceton diagnostics report "Tuning Channel 751 succeeded." though WMC has a black screen but WITH sound. Other non-SDV channels (local HD network channels as well as HBO HD) work perfectly. Looking at the tuner diags, Signal level is -2.9 dBmV and 30.0dB S/N which seems to be within spec. I will probably run diag collection and send to Ceton unless someone here has an idea what's going on.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Interestingly, when I go to the TA diagnostics, something odd happens. Not sure if this is common behavior. Flipping through the MTR-700 Diagnostics (this is Motorola country) all of the various status screens look good, including signal to noise. Clicking on Switched Digital Video Status produces an error message, either "Request timed out, try again later" or something about the tuning resolver is busy (didn't write it down).

I did reboot the TA a couple times; best practice seems to be 1) pull power from the TA, 2) remove the USB cable, 3) restore power, 4) wait for solid OK light, 5) reattach USB


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

dtivouser said:


> Interestingly, when I go to the TA diagnostics, something odd happens. Not sure if this is common behavior. Flipping through the MTR-700 Diagnostics (this is Motorola country) all of the various status screens look good, including signal to noise. Clicking on Switched Digital Video Status produces an error message, either "Request timed out, try again later" or something about the tuning resolver is busy (didn't write it down).
> 
> I did reboot the TA a couple times; best practice seems to be 1) pull power from the TA, 2) remove the USB cable, 3) restore power, 4) wait for solid OK light, 5) reattach USB


I had the same issue when I first installed a Ceton InfiniTV 6 PCie. I opened a support ticket and within one day had a new special firmware sent to me to install which fixed the issue 100%.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Good to know. The folks at Ceton seem to go out of their way to be helpful, even to the extent of contacting the provider on your behalf to work out any issues (although sometimes it can take a while, but they always seem to come through in the end).


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Good to know. The folks at Ceton seem to go out of their way to be helpful, even to the extent of contacting the provider on your behalf to work out any issues (although sometimes it can take a while, but they always seem to come through in the end). When was the last time you heard about Tivo going to bat for anyone (as in never)?


as in hundreds of reports in the forums here over the years? Seriously, anybody who follows these forums knows of the conference calls between TiVo and cable companies. In the early HD days, TiVo even had dedicated phone numbers specifically for 3 way conversations.

There's been dozens of reports over the years of just simple problems with video and audio on single channels due to a cable company franchise messing up the metadata for the channel or set of channels. TiVo contacts the franchise often, I suspect much more often than they are given credit for simply because things just start working again for the TiVo user. I know they called on my behalf several years ago.

You're way off base here.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

I thought maybe it was a codec problem so I installed the Shark007 package and... now nothing works right. Sigh. Start over, I guess.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Wow, Shark007 installed an adware IE toolbar! What a disaster. Time to reinstall again, I guess. 

Really, I think this PC and my Romaio both should spend time at the bottom of a swimming pool.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> You're way off base here.


Then I stand corrected.  I'll admit to not having read every thread that's ever been posted here.



dtivouser said:


> Wow, Shark007 installed an adware IE toolbar! What a disaster. Time to reinstall again, I guess.
> 
> Really, I think this PC and my Romaio both should spend time at the bottom of a swimming pool.


I probably should have mentioned that the Shark007 has at least one item that you should uncheck before completing the installation. It installs it by default unless you clear the checkbox to allow it. You should be able to uninstall it from the Control Panel, IIRC.

What problem did you suspect was caused by a missing codec? You should only need the codec pack if you're trying to play DVDs or Blu-Rays or some other video format. I just looked back over your setup and you indicated you're using Windows 7 Pro, patched. Patched with what?

You may be trying to install more things than are necessary all at once. Try installing just the barebones Windows setup with the Ceton tuners. Get WMC working and stable before you start adding more things into the mix. When things settle down and look like they're behaving, create a backup image so you have a good starting point in case things go south after making additional upgrades. I had many of the same issues you're reporting with my first HTPC as well as one or two other configurations down the road. The problem always ended up being flaky hardware. I had two consecutive Intel motherboards that were bad as well as a couple sticks of memory.


----------



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Black screen on SDV channels is what I thought might be a codec issue. Harpervision says this might be a known issue (not codec). I thought I ran the Shark installer carefully not to get the overt spamware but nonetheless it installed a bunch of crap on my machine.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> And this does not occur for everyone that uses WMC. You just ran into bad luck and decided not to pursue a solution.


I tried fixing it, and there was no logical solution. My computer is very simple, not a lot of hardware or software involved. I can only imagine a more complex system with MCE.



> If we're talking about just using the PC as a DVR then I'd agree. However, add in a standalone DVD or Blu-Ray player and the overall power usage is pretty even. My wife wastes more electricity by leaving lights on all over the house so whatever power my HTPC uses is inconsequential.


An HTPC doesn't replace a Blu-ray player, and those go into deep sleep anyways.



> Aside from being a perfectly competent DVR for my needs, it is the only platform that allows me to play ripped DVDs and Blu-Rays with all of the extras stripped out, leaving just the main movie. This does require the use of third party software and codecs as WMC does not support mkv or Blu-Ray playback natively. However, the software is free in some cases and is not difficult to install and use. There may be some media players that also allow you to play mkv files, but then that means you need a 2nd box in addition to the DVR.


The ripping Blu-ray use case is nonsense. It takes a lot of time to rip the movies, on the off chance that you ever watch one of them. That's what a shelf is for.



> FWIW, Tivos aren't perfect either. I have not personally experienced the vast majority of reported issues, but these forums are littered with complaints about Tivo problems. The point being that neither platform is trouble free no matter how much you want to paint that rosy picture for Tivo.


Total false equivalency. Yes, any piece of electronics can have problems, and a few people will have them. However, TiVos are generally plug and play, MCE is generally a mess that even people very knowledgable with computers can have trouble with. And then there's the actual user experience. Terrible on MCE, but very good on TiVo.

TiVo is the only competent cable DVR system offered for most MSOs. If it weren't for TiVo and CableCard, I'd definitely have DirecTV.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Congratulations, Bigg. You're the first person ever to be added to my Ignore list. :up: Actually, I had you there once before but I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and saw that you started responding rationally to a few posts. Sad to say that didn't last long. See ya! 

Ahhhh. So much better now.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Then I stand corrected.  I'll admit to not having read every thread that's ever been posted here.


Then why did you feel free to bash TiVo if you had no evidence to back up your insinuation?

I don't understand why you feel you can react strongly when somebody bashes WMC without sufficient evidence in your opinion, but you can bash TiVo without evidence.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> Then why did you feel free to bash TiVo if you had no evidence to back up your insinuation?
> 
> I don't understand why you feel you can react strongly when somebody bashes WMC without sufficient evidence in your opinion, but you can bash TiVo without evidence.


It wasn't my intention to bash Tivo, but rather point out what I thought was a benefit in favor of HTPCs (actually, it was Ceton in this instance). I admitted I was wrong so why don't we just move on with it? Based on the number of complaints being posted regularly with regard to Tivo's customer service I'm pleasantly surprised to hear they're doing something right. I don't have a vendetta against Tivo like some people have against HTPCs. I think it's a great DVR.

BTW, I've deleted the statement you found so offensive from the previous post so as not to provide anything misleading. I don't have a problem being corrected if I post something that's inaccurate as I'd like to keep the facts straight.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

CrispyCritter said:


> Then why did you feel free to bash TiVo if you had no evidence to back up your insinuation?
> 
> I don't understand why you feel you can react strongly when somebody bashes WMC without sufficient evidence in your opinion, but you can bash TiVo without evidence.


Yeah, he clearly belongs the TGB, not here. Apparently those people have the technical skills and patience to spend inordinate amount of times debugging the mess that is MCE.

What a piece of work. False equivalencies are a classic misleading tactic, but so obvious.


----------



## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Wow, 3 reinstalls?

I only did one install and not a problem... then again, I knew I had to buy a separate SSD (120GB Samsung) and HDD (3TB Seagate), how to put the video on the hard drive, and installed PowerDVD (boxed copy).

Installed the drivers for my Collossus and it was all good to go. Even managed to transfer not only my recordings from my old HTPC, but also the upcoming list of recordings and stuff. Then just run through the list to get rid of the many duplicates and I have all my season passes and ratings and schedule set in.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I've done dozens of reinstalls so three isn't all that many. Eventually I discovered I had a couple of bad motherboards that were driving me nuts. If you have to keep reinstalling Windows to try and get things working I'd start suspecting a serious hardware problem. Download a copy of Memtest and check your memory sticks for any problems. If there's a motherboard issue I'm not sure what to do about that. There may be some diagnostic software you can try but I wouldn't know what to recommend. My systems simply stopped working and wouldn't boot after a while.

If your hardware is working and you're using the latest drivers you shouldn't run into any problems installing Windows and setting up WMC. If you are having issues then there's something going on that's probably unrelated to WMC.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Yeah, he clearly belongs the TGB, not here. Apparently those people have the technical skills and patience to spend inordinate amount of times debugging the mess that is MCE.


LOL, I built a new PC a year ago and installed 7MC once, then added an HD Homerun Prime tuner and got the Cablecard paired with Comcast in no time. Spent about a half a day to get everything working most of which was building the PC itself and waiting for Win7 SP1 to load a zillion updates.

There was no debugging, it just worked out of the box. My only conclusion from reading these horror stories is that some people can do this, some can't. That's all there is to it. But none of it is rocket science if you pick good hardware and take some time to actually do things in the right order.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

Bigg said:


> To build a decent and equivalent machine to a TiVo, the HTPC is nearly identical in cost. I built mine for exactly the same as the TiVo cost. You have to compare apples to apples, i.e. 6 tuner to 6 tuner.





Bigg said:


> TiVo is a bit more expensive now, as they are $1100 now, but back when they were $900 with Premiere, TiVo and an HTPC were very close in price.


Building a HTPC with open source software is definently not a good idea for many people. I am just saying that it is possible, it can be a good choice for some people, and it can save money.

New TiVo Roamio:
Four-tuner model = $700 or possibly much more if paying monthly
Compatible with TiVo Stream

New open source HTPC:
With two tuners = $318* or less + time to put it together** http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9890288#post9890288
CableCARD tuner with four or more tuners = aprox. $150
Total with four or more tuners = aprox. $353 or slightly more with a new hard drive
Stream cable tv channels*** to an Android phone/tablet = $1.99 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.silicondust.mg.upnp&hl=en

*All functional parts are new except the hard drive
**For those that want to consider that an expense
***Including premium channels such as HBO that are copy protected


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

trip1eX said:


> You forgot-
> 
> $200 -- 20 hrs spent finding deals and parts plus assembly/configuration at minimum wage of $10/hr
> 
> priceless -- Living somewhere that has no copy - protected channels


I do not count the time it takes to set it up as an expense since I consider it a fun hobby. It is more than 20 hours. It is a never ending process of improving the HTPC. If I were to compare it to my salary, it would be a wee bit more than $10 per hour as a licensed engineer.

Comcast in Palm Beach County, FL does not flag channels as copy protected except for premium channels and the MoviePlex channel.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

heyted said:


> I do not count the time it takes to set it up as an expense since I consider it a fun hobby.


Exactly. You can't put a price on doing something you enjoy. If you don't enjoy it and don't want to put in the time, then don't do it. This is something you do out of choice, not necessity. If you have to complain because your hobby isn't working for you then you need to find a different hobby. Like slowbiscuit said, some people can do this and some people can't.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Depends I suppose. Its a hobby until the wife gets used to it and it fails. Then it's a race to get it working again. 

So at the beginning it's a hobby. But after a month once it's setup, it's a necessity.

I probably spent 20 hours in the research of computer components, dealing with the shops, building it, fixing it and getting software installed. But I had a semi-working HTPC in the meantime (it was the half-brokenness that got me working on it). I would've preferred to buy it rather than build it, but no one makes HTPCs that meet the requirements (silent, fast, WAF friendly, and looks like a piece of equipment that belongs in the living room, not an ugly PC). I had to change power supplies because my desired one (a fanless one) requires a certain orientation.

Assembly was fun, until you remove the heatsink for the 10th time because you need it to get access to the drive bays. Even a 4U case is quite small because of the limited depth of most living room shelving which limits how deep and where cabling goes.

If it wasn't for the specific needs, I might have just purchased a Mac Mini and be done with it - small, silent, and looks like a reasonable piece of equipment. The NUC looks good, but it's got a noisy fan.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Worf said:


> Depends I suppose. Its a hobby until the wife gets used to it and it fails. Then it's a race to get it working again.
> 
> So at the beginning it's a hobby. But after a month once it's setup, it's a necessity.


How true. It's a hobby while you're tinkering with it to work out the kinks and then it just becomes part of your everyday experience. Having a HTPC fail once you put it into service is no different than having a Tivo fail, except you tend to catch flak from the family when it happens because it's all your fault for making them use it.



Worf said:


> The NUC looks good, but it's got a noisy fan.


Both of mine are almost dead silent. I can't hear them unless I put my ear right up to them. When the TV's on they just get swallowed up by the noise floor and disappear.

FWIW, the noise levels for fans of the type used in the NUC vary from unit to unit. My old Dell Zino HD used an almost identical fan, the only difference being the length of the wire harness. I had one fail so I picked up another one on ebay. The replacement was noisier than the original, but not so loud that I couldn't live with it. I spotted a listing on ebay a while back for working fans pulled from NUCs. The seller listed them for about $5 apiece so I picked up a couple to have on hand as spares. The cheapest replacement fan I could find for the Zino HD was about $20.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> LOL, I built a new PC a year ago and installed 7MC once, then added an HD Homerun Prime tuner and got the Cablecard paired with Comcast in no time.


Mine didn't work reliably at all, on a brand new, clean, reliable PC. MCE was the one thing that was a mess.



heyted said:


> Building a HTPC with open source software is definently not a good idea for many people. I am just saying that it is possible, it can be a good choice for some people, and it can save money.
> 
> New TiVo Roamio:
> Four-tuner model = $700 or possibly much more if paying monthly
> ...


Your numbers are all off. You're comparing the stripped down Roamio, so start with the one people actually want, which is $1100 including service. At the time i was comparing, TiVo was $900 (XL4 plus service).

For the HTPC, you can make a zillion different configurations, but if it's a decent machine, the PC will be about $700, the Ceton Card is now $300 (6 tuners), it used to be $200 (4 tuners), and Windows is $100.

Basically, either way, a fully equipped system is about $1100. The Ceton Echo is $175 vs. $250 for the TiVo Mini. The biggest argument for MCE being cheaper is that you'll probably want an HTPC anyways, so you may as well have it all in one box, as opposed to an $800 box and an $1100 box sitting next to each other (I have an HTPC and an XL4 sitting next to each other). This is a valid point on cost, but given how horrible MCE is at being a DVR, it's a moot point. TiVo is so much of a better DVR, that it's worth giving up the HTPC is you're on a tight budget. Otherwise, just get an HTPC and a TiVo.


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## rcanoza (Feb 2, 2014)

MS seems to have put Media Center (which I loved) out to pasture, so I guess that's one rather big advantage Tivo has


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

They're still supporting it though.


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## rcanoza (Feb 2, 2014)

Well I bought the Linksys Media Extender (DVD player version) and MS broke compatibility with it in Windows 8.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

None of the legacy extenders work with Windows 8 except the XBox 360. I believe Ceton may have gotten the Echo to work, but I'm not 100% sure. I know they were working on a fix but don't know if they ever got it to work. The safe bet for using extenders is to stick with Windows 7.

FYI, just because Microsoft stopped any further developments of Media Center doesn't mean it will stop working. You should be able to use WMC for as long as you can get guide data for it.

Edit: I just checked the Ceton website and they have a disclaimer that the Echo, as well as any other non-Microsoft extender, does not work with Windows 8.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep and they pretty well abandoned the Echo too, no new firmware releases in almost a year and there are still plenty of issues with it. The rumor is that they basically gave up on extender development after they ran into issues with the chipset they picked. They were going to release an Android implementation on it too but couldn't get the update to flash reliably so they gave up on that as well.

Very sad indictment of a company that stood by the InfiniTV products but not the Echo less than a year after it was released, Ceton has left a bad taste in the mouth of many Echo buyers.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Absolutely. I went through two different Echoes during the beta testing phase and couldn't get either of them to work reliably well on my network. I was hoping that somehow the Android update would make things better until I found out about the issues getting units updated in the field. It wasn't that they couldn't put Android on the Echo and have it work but rather that it had to be flashed at the factory instead of being able to deploy a firmware/software update so customers could update them at home. You would have thought that they'd test the updating process more extensively before announcing the Echo would have it. 

At the very least they could have offered an upgrade program whereby you could send your Echo back to Ceton and trade it in for an Android version or have them upgrade yours, assuming that's even possible. I'm surprised they didn't at least offer the Android version as another option. Drop the price of the original Echo and offer the Android Echo at the original price.

I had been looking forward to the Echo working with better codec support than the existing extenders. I was severely disappointed when the Echo turned out to be just another extender with only a few minor improvements over other units. They also need to drop the price below $100 to make it attractive. OTOH, lots of beta testers raved about it so whatever results you get with it seem to be a mixed bag, sort of like WMC. You either got them to work reliably or ended up being frustrated and tearing your hair out.


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## rcanoza (Feb 2, 2014)

Worf said:


> Yeah, happens a bit more often to me. Though I would really appreciate if it warned me it might happen... or if I could determine when it would do it.
> 
> Could just be a side effect of the fact my guide data is horribly wrong and shows are marked repeat when they're new runs.


While living in Los Angeles a few years ago I found the Tivo's listings for several basic-cable channels were 2 hours fast, probably due to the local cable monopoly being headquartered in St. Louis (this nuisance I could get used to; not until they forced an SDV tuning adapter on us did I cancel in rage).

Lately my news repeats under the same title are somehow not marked as re-runs -- in either WMC or Tivo -- resulting in copies of the Saturday 5am edition, for example. Guide garbage in, guide garbage out. My slow-going project is to schedule everything via scripted manual line-items synced to an online .CSV online, which I manipulate at one-degree remove in Zap2it or something. Probably will be finished around the time of entertainment broadcasting's demise.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

It's unfortunate that the PC DVR never panned out. In theory, it is far superior to a closed system like TiVo, but no one ever got theory to work in reality.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

rcanoza said:


> While living in Los Angeles a few years ago I found the Tivo's listings for several basic-cable channels were 2 hours fast, probably due to the local cable monopoly being headquartered in St. Louis (this nuisance I could get used to; not until they forced an SDV tuning adapter on us did I cancel in rage).
> 
> Lately my news repeats under the same title are somehow not marked as re-runs -- in either WMC or Tivo -- resulting in copies of the Saturday 5am edition, for example. Guide garbage in, guide garbage out. My slow-going project is to schedule everything via scripted manual line-items synced to an online .CSV online, which I manipulate at one-degree remove in Zap2it or something. Probably will be finished around the time of entertainment broadcasting's demise.


Personally, the TiVo has more accurate guide information than WMC for me. Which is odd since both use Zap2It.

Right now, I just make sure my TiVo has the same season passes in it as my WMC machine and then copy the to-do list from my TiVo to WMC.

I did install a remote administration panel for WMC - I haven't tried it yet to see how well scheduling works with it. Perhaps it can shorten the amount of time it takes to copy the listings over...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I can't recall ever comparing the two side by side to see if there were any discrepencies when I was using both Tivo and a WMC PC. I can't ever remember a problem with guide data on either platform, except in the rare instance where a show I recorded on a regular basis was listed to be aired at some unusual time, only to discover that there was something different being aired in that time slot. The scheduled program was recorded but it wasn't what I expected to see. 

I've seen this occur mostly with syndicated or independent programming and it usually raised a red flag when I saw the time slot where it was listed. As for regular series recordings and season passes, they recorded reliably well with but a few instances where a show started much later than usual due to Obama jumping in or some special news report or sporting event that ran over.

I'm wondering if WMC somehow isn't getting all of the metadata that Zap2it provides for each program listing. Either that or it's stripping some of it out. I doubt that Tivo, Inc., is adding data back into the guide datastream before it's being send to your Tivos.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

My WMC PC has been rock solid for about a year now and never misses a beat with one exception. Sometime a new show shows as a repeat on the guide and doesnt get recorded. This seems to happen with two shows so I do keep and eye out for those. It's controlled with my Harmony One and I only use a keyboard to do the monthly updates.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I'd be willing to bet that the two shows indicated as repeats are aired in another country before they get aired in the U.S. That technically makes them all repeats. Check the original air dates in the program descriptions and you'll probably find that it actually aired on an earlier date than the date in the guide.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'd be willing to bet that the two shows indicated as repeats are aired in another country before they get aired in the U.S. That technically makes them all repeats. Check the original air dates in the program descriptions and you'll probably find that it actually aired on an earlier date than the date in the guide.


That's the reason most of my WMC guide data is inaccurate - WMC picks up the US OADs, while my TiVo correctly knows that if it's new in Canada, it's listed as new.

I don't know why or how TiVo seems to figure out that it's "new" to Canada - I just know if I set it to record all new Pawn Stars, or Mythbusters (both are constantly delayed weeks/months from US airing), it consistently picks them up as new (to me) episodes and has done so for the 8+ years I've had TiVo.

WMC picks up the "real" OAD, and thus always missed those shows unless I constantly intervene by copying the recording list from TiVo.

I don't know what's going on. Of course, the other annoyance is when guide data stops for a week and a half (it's happened 3-4 times over the past 3 years) - it always nearly runs out then it starts working again. There are a few persistent threads on the WMC forums when this happens - it's seems once it starts, it happens to everyone.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Worf said:


> That's the reason most of my WMC guide data is inaccurate - WMC picks up the US OADs, while my TiVo correctly knows that if it's new in Canada, it's listed as new.
> 
> I don't know why or how TiVo seems to figure out that it's "new" to Canada - I just know if I set it to record all new Pawn Stars, or Mythbusters (both are constantly delayed weeks/months from US airing), it consistently picks them up as new (to me) episodes and has done so for the 8+ years I've had TiVo.
> 
> ...


This is where opinions tend to differ regarding the accuracy of WMC vs. Tivo guide data. Tivo probably filters the data to reflect the OAD for the region where it's being broadcast for the first time whereas WMC just passes along the raw data. The OAD listed in WMC is accurate with respect to the entire world, but not necessarily for the region where you live. I realize that some people find it annoying, but you really can't blame WMC for listing the actual Original Air Date instead of a fudged date for some specific locale. It's a nice feature for setting up season passes, but nothing that can't be easily worked around if the OAD differs from the current date.

I personally prefer knowing the actual OAD since it means that the entire series of episodes is probably available for download somewhere and I don't have to wait for them to air in real time where I live. For example, the season finale of Lost Girl airs in Canada this week whereas in the U.S. the SyFy Channel is only up to episode 4 or 5, IIRC. I've already seen episodes 1 thru 11 for the current season.

On another note, here's a review of the latest Bay Trail NUC small form factor PC that may be of interest to anyone looking for an inexpensive HTPC:

http://www.legitreviews.com/intel-nuc-dn2820fykh-bay-trail-system-review_135053

The system retails for about $130 and comes with a wireless NIC. It does not come with memory or a hard drive, but it can be used with a standard 2.5" laptop drive or SSD. It can be used to run OpenElec with XBMC if you're only interested in watching movies or Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center. The OpenElec setup will cost you about $160 or so since you can run it off a flash drive and won't need a hard drive, but you will need memory. The Windows 8.1 version will require a hard drive and a Windows license, bringing the total up closer to $300 (Windows 7 drivers are not available at this time). They didn't address using it as a DVR, but I suspect it wouldn't be a problem if you attach an external drive to it for adequate storage. The DVR function in Windows uses very little processing power so it should work fine. Total energy consumption for the Bay Trail NUC is only about 7-10 watts.

I am personally not huge fan of low end PC systems, but this one is a ridiculous bargain for an entry level HTPC. I should note that due to the small size, adding internal peripherals isn't really an option. The unit also has a limited number of USB ports, but any inexpensive powered external USB hub will add more than enough USB ports for expansion. You can use USB tuners (lots of ATSC models and also Hauppauge and Ceton cablecard models) or networked tuners (Ceton InfiniTV 6 ETH or SD HDHomeRun Prime for cablecard and SD HDHR Dual for ATSC).


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Yet it should be common sense when you think about it.


No it is all besides the point which is why it belongs in the fine print.



mr.unnatural said:


> The InfiniTV 6 has been going on sale for $250 quite often recently (in fact, it's on sale right now). I keep getting e-mails from Ceton about sales so I suspect you're going to see a permanent price drop on the horizon. You can buy a used InfiniTV 4 on ebay for less than $100 these days. The SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime was on sale for only $80 with free shipping a day or two ago from TigerDirect, IIRC. The new six-tuner HDHomeRun Prime is supposed to be selling for only $150 when it comes out so I suspect Ceton will drop their price even further to be competitive. Newegg has a huge inventory of refurbed PCs that would work as a basic HTPC and sell for under $100 on occasion.


You already mentioned some of this. The point I made to this was that Tivos go on sale too and drop in price over the long run as well.

I never argued that if you wait and shop for parts for a WMC pc and don't care about quality of the parts or have parts at home that you can't pay less money.

I merely pointed out that if you wanted to go out and buy a 6-tuner WMC pc today the price is going to be about the same as a Romaio Plus. Everything you say about having parts at home or finding parts on sale is an asterisk to that. It may or may not apply. It may or may not save you money. It may or may not take up a lot of time. IT may or may not require a lot of work.



mr.unnatural said:


> You forgot to factor in the cost of lifetime service on your Roamio, which drives the cost up considerably higher.


NO I did not forget. The point was Tivos go on sale too. I merely pointed out that the Roamio Pro was recently $175 cheaper than its list price.



mr.unnatural said:


> FYI - there are lots of HTPC cabinets available that look like any other AV component. I've got a Silverstone case that looks right at home next to my Onkyo Pro preamp/processor. Here's a link to the same case with a silver finish (mine's all black):
> 
> http://www.silverstonetek.com/product_legacy.php?area=en&model=lc14


You are arguing out of context here. I am replying to your $300 off the shelf pc response which was your reply to me when I said a WMC pc with 6 tuners is about the same as a Roamio Plus. Those $300 pcs aren't housed in nice Silverstone cases. I have a Silverstone case btw. IT was around $80 just for the case. A nicer cabinet case only makes a wmc pc more expensive.



mr.unnatural said:


> I don't recall ever having a temperature issue in my HTPC. The Cetons do run warm, but nothing too extreme that would cause any problems.


I don't think you recall anything about WMC except it working.  But forums are full of these discussions. And temps are always something to be aware about when being your own system configurator.



mr.unnatural said:


> How is it not a real copy of Windows? Just because I'm not using it as a desktop PC doesn't change the OS. You only have to deal with bloatware if you buy a preconfigured PC from a major manufacturer. You can always wipe the drive and reinstall Windows without all of that crap. I usually remove it from any preconfigured PC.


NO preconfigured pc has a real copy of windows ie a disc with just Windows on it. Alot of them don't even give you a disc any more either. Again there is context here. You mentioned buying $300 pcs. I presumed they had Windows on them otherwise that is another $100ish expense.



mr.unnatural said:


> Any PC can be made virtually dead silent with the right cooling devices.


Again you lost context here. I mention a pc being louder or hotter only in reply to your notion that you can just buy a cheap pc and all is good. Cheap pcs aren't known to be quiet. And any time and expense in making your pc cooler and quieter just adds to the cost of your htpc.



mr.unnatural said:


> Configuring Windows Media Center shouldn't be any more difficult than setting up a Tivo. I just load up the software, make a few settings and I'm good to go. It's a little more involved than that, but not all that complicated. Gremlins can creep into the situation on occasion and Murphy's Law is always present so there's no foolproof way to set up a HTPC, although it's been ages since I've personally had any HTPC issues.


Put the kool-aid down and back away. 



mr.unnatural said:


> I can't argue about the effeciency with respect to power usage. However, newer hardware is more efficient than ever before. My Intel NUCs probably use about the same power as your Roamio. You also have to factor in that a HTPC performs the same tasks as multiple individual components so the overall power usage is probably going to be a wash.


Context!! And I don't have a Roamio. I have a WMC pc.  Cheap pcs are cheap for a reason. It costs $$$$$ money to make your pc more efficient, quieter and cooler in a more pleasing form factor. And that only puts a WMC pc closer to the price of a Roamio Plus.



mr.unnatural said:


> I also dabble in woodworking on occasion, so what you're suggesting isn't as farfetched as you make it sound. Building a wood frame for a couch isn't all that difficult. I just don't have the upholstering skills to make it work, although I'm sure I could learn them if I had the time to invest.


Oh so you don't have time to invest in building a new couch? How could that be? AFter reading arguments for building your WMC pc, I thought time was unlimited and costs nothing?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

heyted said:


> I do not count the time it takes to set it up as an expense since I consider it a fun hobby. It is more than 20 hours. It is a never ending process of improving the HTPC. If I were to compare it to my salary, it would be a wee bit more than $10 per hour as a licensed engineer.
> 
> Comcast in Palm Beach County, FL does not flag channels as copy protected except for premium channels and the MoviePlex channel.


YOu only reinforce my point.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Never mind. Disregard this post.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> This is where opinions tend to differ regarding the accuracy of WMC vs. Tivo guide data. Tivo probably filters the data to reflect the OAD for the region where it's being broadcast for the first time whereas WMC just passes along the raw data. The OAD listed in WMC is accurate with respect to the entire world, but not necessarily for the region where you live. I realize that some people find it annoying, but you really can't blame WMC for listing the actual Original Air Date instead of a fudged date for some specific locale. It's a nice feature for setting up season passes, but nothing that can't be easily worked around if the OAD differs from the current date.
> 
> I personally prefer knowing the actual OAD since it means that the entire series of episodes is probably available for download somewhere and I don't have to wait for them to air in real time where I live. For example, the season finale of Lost Girl airs in Canada this week whereas in the U.S. the SyFy Channel is only up to episode 4 or 5, IIRC. I've already seen episodes 1 thru 11 for the current season.


Actually, TiVo DOES list the correct OAD. However, the "new" flag is correct for the region it's in. TiVo uses the right OAD for the copyright date shown in the listings, and if you hit "info" it lists the proper OAD for that episode.

So the raw data on TiVo is correct. However, TiVo does filter it so "new to you" episodes, even if the OAD is long gone (we're still having Pawn Stars from mid-2013 as "new"), it's still picked up as a "new episode only" season pass.

WMC doesn't, which means "new episodes only" are kinda worthless except on network programming (which have identical air dates). And with a show like Pawn Stars which are endlessly reshown and syndicated, the season pass is sort of useless - record all and you get all the reruns as well, record new and nothing records, which means it has to be manually scheduled in. (And oddly, WMC only shows a set number of items in the "Other Showings", usually just not enough despite having the guide data).


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I'm amused every time mr. unnatural brings up trolls. His definition for a troll seems to be 'anyone who disagrees with him'.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

steve614 said:


> I'm amused every time mr. unnatural brings up trolls. His definition for a troll seems to be 'anyone who disagrees with him'.


OK, looking back at tripleX's post I see that I may have been a bit harsh in my response. I got home late last night and posted that when I was getting ready to pass out from exhaustion so it didn't come across the way I intended.

tripleX - while the original "context" of our discussion was in regard to an off-the-shelf PC for use with WMC, I only recommend using them as a starting point. Most people that build HTPCs tend to spend more than they would for a Tivo. Any price comparisons between the two platforms is moot because the value is in the eye of the beholder. HTPC users are more likely to invest in a nicer case and quieter fans and not gripe about the added cost. My mention of an off-the-shelf $300 PC was on target with the discussion as it pertained to what it would cost to build a basic HTPC. You can nitpick individual things about a HTPC vs. a Tivo, but everything you mentioned is easily resolved without breaking the bank.

Apparently, what I view as common sense with regards to building a HTPC doesn't agree with your opinion so we'll leave it at that. I'd like to think people would have enough common sense to research something before they jump into it with both feet. There's no "fine print" involved. Anything you want to know about HTPCs is openly available to anyone that takes the time to do a little research.

I have always recommended using an existing PC as a test platform before investing in any other PC hardware for use as a HTPC. If that's not feasible then I point them to the off-the-shelf turnkey option. I would never recommend that anyone jump in and buy all new hardware for their first HTPC build.

Here's but one example of a low cost solution for a HTPC:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883265683

Newegg has a huge selection of refurbished desktop PCs that could easily be converted for use as a HTPC. They're cheap and most of them come with Windows 7 pre-installed. Many of them are also in a small form factor desktop design that wouldn't be as obtrusive as a tower case.

I just noticed that the PC I referenced does not have an HDMI output. It does, however, have a couple of expansion slots so you could add an inexpensive low profile graphics card with HDMI output that is HDCP compliant for about $40.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

trip1eX said:


> YOu only reinforce my point.


What I was trying to get across is that most people do not consider the time spent doing something that they enjoy as an expense. Most people do not consider the price of going to see their favorite football team as the price of the ticket plus an hourly rate equivalent to their wage for four hours. I agree that some people do not enjoy working with hardware or software as a hobby-- dtivouser, are we having fun yet?

Most TiVo users are stuck with the software that is on their TiVo (except for apps). Users of the TiVo service are legally required to accept whatever software TiVo Inc. decides to install on the TiVo at any time. I consider the ability for people to install and, in some cases, change the software on their HTPC until their heart is content an advantage that an HTPC has over TiVo. I agree that some people do not mind (or actually prefer) having no control over the software. It is just a personal preference.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

A low cost HTPC can be very quiet. Quality and nearly silent fans can be purchased or manufactured for a very low cost. Zotac did a great job with the D2550-ITX line with regard to noise. Mine is nearly silent.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

dtivouser said:


> Really, I think this PC and my Romaio both should spend time at the bottom of a swimming pool.


Sorry to hear you are having trouble with both. Did you get the TA to work with just WMC and drivers installed? Does/did the TA work fine with the TiVo?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

heyted said:


> A low cost HTPC can be very quiet. Quality and nearly silent fans can be purchased or manufactured for a very low cost. Zotac did a great job with the D2550-ITX line with regard to noise. Mine is nearly silent.


Quite true. Noise definitely isn't the issue. My HTPC is usually dead silent, and could be dead silent all the time if I replaced the stock HSF.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

heyted said:


> Sorry to hear you are having trouble with both. Did you get the TA to work with just WMC and drivers installed? Does/did the TA work fine with the TiVo?


The TA works with WMC... sometimes. I can't rely on it. It all works fine, then I do something complicated like change the channel, and it breaks. Completely frustrated with trying to fix it.


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## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> Your Tivos must be quieter than mine. I have never owned a Tivo where the drive didn't seek constantly. I could never have one in my bedroom for all the noise they make. My NUCs are almost dead silent. You can't turn off the buffers on a Tivo so it's always recording something.


This amazes me; I must've gotten very very lucky.

I'm extremely noise sensitive and have had 5 Tivos (3 S2s, 1 S3, 1 HD) and now a new Roamio - always in my bedroom and have never heard one unless I went and put my ear to it. Head of my bed is about 13' from the open sideboard the Tivos have lived on, i.e. they've not been behind closed doors. Two of the S2s were in a secondary residence with a smaller bedroom, maybe 8' from Tivo to bed headboard. I've replaced 3 of the hard drives, always with the one that was rated the quietest, so have had a mix of original drives and replacements.

My new Roamio has only been in operation for one day but so far it's the same quiet experience as the others.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

dtivouser said:


> The main problem with my Roamio has to do with TA issues


Have you had your cable provider come to your home and check the tuning adapter and lines? You probably already know this, but if there is a problem with the TA, your cable provider must provide support.
http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights
http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/cablecards


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

moonscape said:


> This amazes me; I must've gotten very very lucky.
> 
> I'm extremely noise sensitive and have had 5 Tivos (3 S2s, 1 S3, 1 HD) and now a new Roamio - always in my bedroom and have never heard one unless I went and put my ear to it. Head of my bed is about 13' from the open sideboard the Tivos have lived on, i.e. they've not been behind closed doors. Two of the S2s were in a secondary residence with a smaller bedroom, maybe 8' from Tivo to bed headboard. I've replaced 3 of the hard drives, always with the one that was rated the quietest, so have had a mix of original drives and replacements.
> 
> My new Roamio has only been in operation for one day but so far it's the same quiet experience as the others.


I've owned literally dozens of Tivos and I can say that the noise levels they generate isn't consistent across the board. I've upgraded every Tivo that's come into my possession with larger hard drives so it could have been an issue with the particular drive I installed. I had an S3 in a wooden TV stand with an open shelf right below the TV and I could hear the drive constantly seeking as soon as I entered the room. I'm sure this was probably an exception to the rule as I know all hard drives aren't as noisy as this one was.

If there's one thing I've learned it's that you can't condemn an entire product line just because you had a bad experience with it. I've had bad experiences with lots of products, but reading reviews from other owners clearly showed me that my experience was not the norm. I'll relay my experiences to others, but I also advise that they try it for themselves as others have achieved better results than me. For the most part, I've had great experiences with Tivo. I've had mixed experiences with HTPCs, but there turned out to be valid reasons why they occurred for the most part. Other times I just scratched my head and couldn't find an explanation for why things went wonky. I could usually get the problem resolved with a reinstall of Windows.

For the past couple of years, every installation has gone smooth as silk and everything has been hunky dory (knock on wood). I can't say I'm surprised that people still have issues with WMC because sometimes things just refuse to cooperate and drive you a little nuts in the process. That's why we call it a hobby and not a turnkey solution. Other have a bad experience and it brings out the Chicken Little in them.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

heyted said:


> Have you had your cable provider come to your home and check the tuning adapter and lines?


Heh, because of Roamio's colossal suckage and this HTPC project, when I walk into the local Time Warner office, Becky calls me by name and asks "how many" TA's and CC's we're swapping today, not "what can I do for you".

The lines are fine. I even get Tivo's fud about the signal being too good.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

That's never a good sign when the people at your local cable TV office know you on a first name basis. FWIW, I went through a cablecard fiasco with Verizon this past week. The good news is that the people I spoke with were in the U.S. and spoke fluent English. For some reason my cablecard in my HTPC tuner lost the validation signal and it wouldn't update via the automated phone menu or when the techs tried to do it for me. They ended up sending me a replacement cablecard. They actually sent me two cards for some reason. I tried to activate just one of them over the phone and when it asked me for the info on the 2nd card I said skip it into the phone and got kicked out of the conversation and automatically forwarded to tech support. After an hour of the tech fiddling with it I finally got live TV on encrypted channels. Apparently Verizon was experiencing difficulties with cablecard activations at the time and the techs clearly did not get the memo. It didn't help that either tech I spoke with was really not familiar with the cablecard activation process because they were asking me for info that they said was either on the cablecard or the box it came in. I had to convince them that all they needed was the cablecard ID, Host ID, and Data ID to get the card activated.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

heyted said:


> What I was trying to get across is that most people do not consider the time spent doing something that they enjoy as an expense. Most people do not consider the price of going to see their favorite football team as the price of the ticket plus an hourly rate equivalent to their wage for four hours. I agree that some people do not enjoy working with hardware or software as a hobby-- dtivouser, are we having fun yet?


WEll going to a football game isn't a good analogy as you aren't comparing it to anything.

For it to make more sense you would have to compare it, for example and off the top of my head, to getting similar tickets for $100 less if you help your uncle move out of this house this coming weekend, park 45 minutes away in a free spot on game day and sit a few seats apart from your wife.

And then of course, you don't mention the "moving your uncle's furniture" part or "not sitting together" when telling your buddy about the cost of your football tickets.

Anyway I mentioned the hobbyist things earlier so you're preaching to the choir. Hobbyists falls under the fine print. Hobbyists generally don't need to be told about their hobby. The vast majority aren't software/hardware hobbyists. And the time one wants to put into a project is a very personal choice. I'm just pointing out that your exception only proves the rule.



heyted said:


> Most TiVo users are stuck with the software that is on their TiVo (except for apps). Users of the TiVo service are legally required to accept whatever software TiVo Inc. decides to install on the TiVo at any time. I consider the ability for people to install and, in some cases, change the software on their HTPC until their heart is content an advantage that an HTPC has over TiVo. I agree that some people do not mind (or actually prefer) having no control over the software. It is just a personal preference.


This is a new argument. And more of an emotional one at that instead of a logical one. And a very convoluted argument too.

And as far as I know you have no choice in cabletv recording software on your pc. IT's WMC or nothing. That's the rule.

The exception would be if you have unencrypted channels. But that's the exception.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> OK, looking back at tripleX's post I see that I may have been a bit harsh in my response. I got home late last night and posted that when I was getting ready to pass out from exhaustion so it didn't come across the way I intended.
> 
> tripleX - while the original "context" of our discussion was in regard to an off-the-shelf PC for use with WMC, I only recommend using them as a starting point. Most people that build HTPCs tend to spend more than they would for a Tivo. Any price comparisons between the two platforms is moot because the value is in the eye of the beholder. HTPC users are more likely to invest in a nicer case and quieter fans and not gripe about the added cost. My mention of an off-the-shelf $300 PC was on target with the discussion as it pertained to what it would cost to build a basic HTPC. You can nitpick individual things about a HTPC vs. a Tivo, but everything you mentioned is easily resolved without breaking the bank.


Don't worry I didn't get to see your post. 

But I think you are the one that is nitpicking. You are nitpicking my argument that an HTPC is a similar price to a Roamio and that any small savings is moot considering the resale value of a Roamio and the quality and time savings. I think what won't break the bank is paying a few extra bucks for a Roamio Plus. 



mr.unnatural said:


> Apparently, what I view as common sense with regards to building a HTPC doesn't agree with your opinion so we'll leave it at that. I'd like to think people would have enough common sense to research something before they jump into it with both feet. There's no "fine print" involved. Anything you want to know about HTPCs is openly available to anyone that takes the time to do a little research.


Nothing to do with common sense.

You want the WMC pc to be much cheaper than a Roamio Plus. But when someone points out that this comes with many caveats then you say you can overcome those. But when someone points out that the WMC pc is then no longer a cheaper option you cry foul!!!  

The "research" that comes with a building a WMC pc is part of the "fine print."



mr.unnatural said:


> I have always recommended using an existing PC as a test platform before investing in any other PC hardware for use as a HTPC. If that's not feasible then I point them to the off-the-shelf turnkey option. I would never recommend that anyone jump in and buy all new hardware for their first HTPC build.


Or you could just be done with it and buy a Roamio Plus. Get all the advantages with none of the headaches and trial and error and test platforms to final platforms talk..... And again, if you do happen to pay a bit more money then it certainly won't break the bank.



mr.unnatural said:


> Here's but one example of a low cost solution for a HTPC:
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883265683
> 
> ...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> This is a new argument. And more of an emotional one at that instead of a logical one. And a very convoluted argument too.


Back for your weekly session of poking the bear?  How on earth is heyted's response an emotional argument? Are you saying that personal preference has absolutely no bearing on what a person chooses to purchase or make use of? It's a very valid argument and also quite logical. Tivo is a fixed platform with virtually zero room for modification or customization, especially with the most recent models. A HTPC configuration is fluid. You can change the hardware or software to suit your taste and requirements. You can customize it for additional features and appearance. You can also choose to go with something other than Windows Media Center if you prefer a different front end. If someone prefers not to have this level of control then Tivo would clearly be their personal preference. Those of us that like to tinker and have more control over what our DVRs can do prefer something a bit different. Personal preference has everything to do with it.

There is always a caveat with any venture into an area that's new or unfamiliar. If you want to call it fine print then fine. However, if you don't read the "fine print" then that's on you. If you don't already know what you're getting yourself into then you haven't done your homework. Again, this is common sense for most of us. You simply don't jump into something like building and configuring a HTPC without prior knowledge of what's involved. If you don't, you'll be in over your head before you realize what happened. Anyone that's worked with PCs knows this to be a fact and not simply conjecture. It's like trying to hack a Tivo without doing any research first. Your philosophy is on the same level as someone requiring a warning label on a coffee cup at McDonald's to inform them that the contents may be hot. 

All this talk about time being money and so forth is superfluous and irrelevant. If that's how you have to measure time having fun then it's clearly not your thing. You can't put a price on time spent doing something you enjoy. I don't sit around thinking about how much time I spend on a hobby vs. what pay rate I get for doing my regular job. If anything, I look forward to spending the time away from my regular job doing something fun and rewarding.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

> But I think you are the one that is nitpicking. You are nitpicking my argument that an HTPC is a similar price to a Roamio and that any small savings is moot considering the resale value of a Roamio and the quality and time savings. I think what won't break the bank is paying a few extra bucks for a Roamio Plus.


The conversation was based on what you *could* spend on a HTPC and not what people would actually spend. I'll admit that the average HTPC will probably be more expensive than a comparable Tivo, but that's usually by choice. You can put whatever you want into it. You can have a barebones setup that costs less than a Tivo with lifetime or you can go for broke and have one that costs in the 4-figure range. I've only made the argument that a HTPC can be made for less than what a Tivo costs with lifetime. I have personally spent well over $2,000 on my HTPC over the years, but that includes numerous upgrades and several complete overhauls.



> Nothing to do with common sense.
> 
> You want the WMC pc to be much cheaper than a Roamio Plus. But when someone points out that this comes with many caveats then you say you can overcome those. But when someone points out that the WMC pc is then no longer a cheaper option you cry foul!!!


See my above comment. Nobody's crying foul about anything.



> The "research" that comes with a building a WMC pc is part of the "fine print."


See my prior post.



> Or you could just be done with it and buy a Roamio Plus. Get all the advantages with none of the headaches and trial and error and test platforms to final platforms talk..... And again, if you do happen to pay a bit more money then it certainly won't break the bank.


If a Roamio Plus is what you want then go for it. Nobody is arguing that you should ditch Tivo in favor of a HTPC. It's clearly not your thing so stick with something that works for you.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> Don't worry I didn't get to see your post.
> 
> But I think you are the one that is nitpicking. You are nitpicking my argument that an HTPC is a similar price to a Roamio and that any small savings is moot considering the resale value of a Roamio and the quality and time savings. I think what won't break the bank is paying a few extra bucks for a Roamio Plus.
> 
> ...


Exactly. He's obsessed with MCE, even though in reality, TiVo is the far better option for all but the most hard-core tinkerers.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Exactly. He's obsessed with MCE, even though in reality, TiVo is the far better option for all but the most hard-core tinkerers.


Not exactly. I just like HTPCs. I also happen to like Tivos. I use WMC because it's the only available option for receiving and recording encrypted digital cable on a PC. Now that there are other options available if your provider doesn't flag the channels as copy once, I'm looking into giving them a try. The only problem is finding the time to do so.

I've already got one PC configured with XBMC, server.wmc, and pvr.wmc. I've only had a brief opportunity to test it out and ran into a few glitches. I've had issues with Verizon and my cablecard not activating properly so I've had to deal with getting a new one and trying to get it activated as well. Turns out that Verizon was having problems with cablecard activations across the board and apparently their phone tech support folks never got the memo. It also hasn't helped that mother nature keeps dumping lots of snow on us and I've had to devote many hours to just keeping my driveway clear.

Tivo or HTPC. You use which one suits your needs. It's all good.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Not exactly. I just like HTPCs. I also happen to like Tivos. I use WMC because it's the only available option for receiving and recording encrypted digital cable on a PC. Now that there are other options available if your provider doesn't flag the channels as copy once, I'm looking into giving them a try. The only problem is finding the time to do so.


True, it is the only option for using a PC to record digital cable. So it proves that until another software solution is developed, recording cable on a PC isn't viable. It's too bad that BeyondTV and SageTV were never able to grow into CableCard and become viable competitors to TiVo. The concept of running a centralized server based on a PC by adding your own hardware is great, it's just that MCE is so badly botched that it's just not realistic at this point...

In terms of copy once channels. HBO forces copy once, which is completely idiotic, but they do, so it is that way on all cable systems, even ones like Comcast that use the copy flags correctly. HBO should lighten up, since all their popular stuff is on torrent anyways, although I guess if you want it somewhere else, you can just torrent it.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

Bigg said:


> True, it is the only option for using a PC to record digital cable.


There are many software solutions for recording digital cable on an HTPC. For example, if a user has all digital encrypted channels with all channels having CCI flagged as copy freely except premium channels, then a complete solution is possible with MythTV or other open source software if the user has no premium channels. Many people are not interested in premium channels like HBO. I used to have premium channels, but I dropped them all and got Netflix.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

dtivouser said:


> The lines are fine. I even get Tivo's fud about the signal being too good.


I had signal issues myself several months ago. I do not have a tuning adapter, but I was having problems with some channels not tuning intermittently after Comcast did some work in my neighborhood. I used the TiVo Premiere that I had at the time to check the signal on the problem channels. It appeared that the signal was not too strong. Comcast recommend a home visit, and after checking the signal, I was surprised to hear him say the signal is "too hot." After he was finished, all channels worked fine.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> True, it is the only option for using a PC to record digital cable. So it proves that until another software solution is developed, recording cable on a PC isn't viable. It's too bad that BeyondTV and SageTV were never able to grow into CableCard and become viable competitors to TiVo. The concept of running a centralized server based on a PC by adding your own hardware is great, it's just that MCE is so badly botched that it's just not realistic at this point...


Actually, it's the only option for recording channels marked as copy once. There are several options for recording digital cable over and above WMC as long as the channels are flagged as copy freely. There's an add-on for SageTV that allows you to use cablecard tuners for recording any channels flagged as copy freely. Even though SageTV is technically no longer supported since they sold out to Google, the developer of SageTV has promised to provide guide data for existing SageTV users indefinitely. If you're lucky you can still pick up a license to use SageTV from the classifieds in the SageTV forums (it's transferable).

I was just in the process of testing SageTV with the DCT add-on when they announced the sale to Google. When I realized that licenses were no longer directly available I stopped any further evaluation. It's a shame becauase I was really curious to see what all the fuss was about regarding SageTV. It's much more complex to configure than WMC, but their extenders were supposed to be the best in the business.

BeyondTV is still around for recording OTA channels, but they basically abandoned any further development after Windows 7 was released. I guess they just couldn't deal with the competition once Microsoft threw their hat into the ring. I used to use BTV with Windows XP but upgraded to Windows 7 and Media Center and never looked back.



> In terms of copy once channels. HBO forces copy once, which is completely idiotic, but they do, so it is that way on all cable systems, even ones like Comcast that use the copy flags correctly. HBO should lighten up, since all their popular stuff is on torrent anyways, although I guess if you want it somewhere else, you can just torrent it.


HBO doesn't flag their channels, your provider does. However, HBO pretty much demands that they do so for HBO and Cinemax. Providers that flag anything else should be horsewhipped.

Edit: I forgot to mention that XBMC and Media Portal also have the ability to use cablecard tuners, but with the same caveat and limitation as SageTV. XBMC actually uses any number of DVR apps as the backend for the recording engine and guide data. Here's a list of the various DVR apps that can be used with XBMC:

http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=PVR_backend

I've also been considering Media Portal, which is very popular in other parts of the world. They only recently added live TV and recording functionality. Here's a link to their website if you want to take a gander:

http://www.team-mediaportal.com/


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Bigg said:


> So it proves that until another software solution is developed, recording cable on a PC isn't viable.


For you! Just because you don't have the right skills to set up an HTPC properly so that it's rock solid doesnt mean others can't. About once every quarter I run windows patching, reboot and forget about it. It is far more dependable than my Premiere ever was.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

heyted said:


> There are many software solutions for recording digital cable on an HTPC. For example, if a user has all digital encrypted channels with all channels having CCI flagged as copy freely except premium channels, then a complete solution is possible with MythTV or other open source software if the user has no premium channels. Many people are not interested in premium channels like HBO. I used to have premium channels, but I dropped them all and got Netflix.


By that same logic, you don't even need QAM, as if you don't have cable you can just use OTA. No CableCard necessary. MCE is the only complete digital cable solution on the market.



mr.unnatural said:


> HBO doesn't flag their channels, your provider does. However, HBO pretty much demands that they do so for HBO and Cinemax. Providers that flag anything else should be horsewhipped.


Same difference. They force the providers to flag them. Yes, providers that flag stuff they shouldn't be flagging are evil. It's amazing that they would waste their time and money flagging stuff just to screw their own customers over.



mschnebly said:


> For you! Just because you don't have the right skills to set up an HTPC properly so that it's rock solid doesnt mean others can't. About once every quarter I run windows patching, reboot and forget about it. It is far more dependable than my Premiere ever was.


MCE is a complete mess. Even if MCE had worked properly with my setup, the interface is a disaster, there are no good remotes, etc, etc.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

Bigg said:


> By that same logic, you don't even need QAM, as if you don't have cable you can just use OTA. No CableCard necessary.


What? QAM is required for cable to work. I have cable because I want cable channels that are not broadcast OTA. A CableCARD is required to receive encrypted cable channels.

Clear QAM is not the same thing as CCI = copy freely.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Don't waste your time trying to argue with Bigg. He emphatically hates WMC for whatever reason and he believes everyone else should feel the same.

Arguing with him is like hitting your head against a brick wall. You'll feel much better when you finally stop.  Most importantly, it adds nothing meaningful to this thread.

FWIW, I use a Logitech Harmony One to control my HTPC. It's the same remote I've used for years to control my Tivos. It's also one of the most popular remotes ever made. Sadly, it is no longer in production.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

mr.unnatural said:


> Don't waste your time trying to argue with Bigg. He emphatically hates WMC for whatever reason and he believes everyone else should feel the same.
> 
> Arguing with him is like hitting your head against a brick wall. You'll feel much better when you finally stop.  Most importantly, it adds nothing meaningful to this thread.
> 
> FWIW, I use a Logitech Harmony One to control my HTPC. It's the same remote I've used for years to control my Tivos. It's also one of the most popular remotes ever made. Sadly, it is no longer in production.


Ain't that the truth. I also use the Harmony One and my wife has no problems at all. She always hated the sluggishness of our Premiere. It's nice to have choices.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

heyted said:


> What? QAM is required for cable to work. I have cable because I want cable channels that are not broadcast OTA. A CableCARD is required to receive encrypted cable channels.
> 
> Clear QAM is not the same thing as CCI = copy freely.


My point is, your argument that HBO doesn't matter is ridiculous, because by the same logic, nothing on cable matters, so you may as well just use OTA. Definitely not the case.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Back for your weekly session of poking the bear?  How on earth is heyted's response an emotional argument? Are you saying that personal preference has absolutely no bearing on what a person chooses to purchase or make use of? It's a very valid argument and also quite logical. Tivo is a fixed platform with virtually zero room for modification or customization, especially with the most recent models. A HTPC configuration is fluid. You can change the hardware or software to suit your taste and requirements. You can customize it for additional features and appearance. You can also choose to go with something other than Windows Media Center if you prefer a different front end. If someone prefers not to have this level of control then Tivo would clearly be their personal preference. Those of us that like to tinker and have more control over what our DVRs can do prefer something a bit different. Personal preference has everything to do with it.


? It's emotional because it was all about control and not about any benefits of that control. Control for control's sake. You are doing the same thing.

His and your "control" is all a bit of a mirage and theoretical. I mean in theory you could build your recording tv software and have all the control you want. What's stopping you? And then considering that you really only have 1 choice for recording cabletv software and that all the hardware, except maybe cases and remotes, is pretty standardized, the control here is a mirage as well.

I guess you could say you have more choices if you want a worse WMC pc. I mean if you want your pc louder than a Tivo and run hotter or have a bigger case etc then you can do that and save some money. But you can't do better, despite all your control, with power efficiency nor how quiet it is to any degree that matters nor probably how compact a Roamio Plus is. And probably can't do better than a Tivo remote either. So control seems like an emotional argument that serves a psychological need. The word "control" is meant to win over emotions rather than logic.

A few years ago WMC had a lot going for it over Tivo. But now WMC has none of these advantages it had. I mentioned these earlier in this thread.



mr.unnatural said:


> There is always a caveat with any venture into an area that's new or unfamiliar. If you want to call it fine print then fine. However, if you don't read the "fine print" then that's on you. If you don't already know what you're getting yourself into then you haven't done your homework. Again, this is common sense for most of us. You simply don't jump into something like building and configuring a HTPC without prior knowledge of what's involved. If you don't, you'll be in over your head before you realize what happened. Anyone that's worked with PCs knows this to be a fact and not simply conjecture. It's like trying to hack a Tivo without doing any research first. Your philosophy is on the same level as someone requiring a warning label on a coffee cup at McDonald's to inform them that the contents may be hot.


You are all mixed up. I said, "You want the WMC pc to be much cheaper than a Roamio Plus. But when someone points out that this comes with many caveats then you say you can overcome those. But when someone points out that the WMC pc is then no longer a cheaper option you cry foul!!!"

The caveats in this case are the fact your much cheaper WMC pc will be a POS. I've mentioned specifics in earlier posts.

And what you just said only backs up what Bigg says,

" He's obsessed with MCE, even though in reality, TiVo is the far better option for all but the most hard-core tinkerers."



mr.unnatural said:


> All this talk about time being money and so forth is superfluous and irrelevant. If that's how you have to measure time having fun then it's clearly not your thing. You can't put a price on time spent doing something you enjoy. I don't sit around thinking about how much time I spend on a hobby vs. what pay rate I get for doing my regular job. If anything, I look forward to spending the time away from my regular job doing something fun and rewarding.


This also reaffirms what Bigg says. And which I agree with.

But I just leave the hard-core tinkerer part out because I haven't heard of a tinkerer that needs to be told they can tinker. And in general this isn't the vast majority of people especially, or at least, when it comes to DVRs.

If you really think WMC is only for those who love building computers and tinkering with them so much that they never count the time then why nitpick those like Bigg or myself who say Roamio is the way to go?

And personally a few years there were some very pragmatic reasons to go with WMC over a Premiere. WMC had 4 tuners and extenders and a speedier UI. The Premiere's default storage was also pretty laughably low by most measures. Now WMC has none of those advantages. And MS has discontinued further support on top of it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

You waited a whole 10 days before stirring the pot this time. You must be slacking off.  

Nobody is trying to convince you that WMC is better than your Tivo. You use whatever suits your needs and I'll keep using WMC or whatever PC-based setup I desire. I just picked up a SageTV server license so I plan on playing with that when I can find the time. I'd also like to take a crack at using Media Portal and the latest XBMC version that supports cablecards. This thread was supposed to be about WMC so I haven't branched out to discuss those areas in more detail.

You can argue all of the insigificant points you like but it still doesn't change the fact that a PC-based DVR or media center PC is far more versatile than any Tivo ever made. Both platforms have their pluses and minuses. I just feel that a HTPC has more in the plus column overall than a Tivo, but that's just my opinion. 

Heat and noise are irrelevant because they're things you can fix if you deem it necessary, and it won't break the bank to do so. Cost is also a non-issue because anyone planning on building a HTPC won't think twice about spending more on it than a Tivo. Energy consumption with today's PC hardware is at an all-time low. My NUCs probably consume about the same energy as a Tivo, if only slightly more (the power supply is only rated at 19.5 watts, IIRC). You can use a Raspberry Pi with OpenElec (an XBMC distribution) for streaming 1080P Blu-Rays with HD audio that will use less energy than a Tivo. I haven't heard of anyone using it as a DVR, but I have no doubt it can probably be done with the right setup.

I only pointed out that it's possible to build a HTPC for the same or even less than a Tivo. In reality, most people will opt for a more expensive solution. If you want to continue to nickel and dime the argument to death then that's on you. That horse has been dead for quite some time now so please put down your club.

You and Bigg seem determined to try and convince the rest of the world that WMC is a POS and should not be used under any circumstances. The real truth is that you seem to be trying harder to convince yourselves of this because the majority of people that have tried WMC aren't buying it. I get the feeling that you guys must have been traumatized by Bill Gates or someone from Microsoft at a very early age to exhibit this much hatred and contempt. I think you'd be surprised to learn just how many members here also use HTPCs and are active in the Home Theater PC section of the AVS Forums.

I'm not here to pick a fight with anyone. If you don't like WMC then that's your right. It's also my right to use whatever platform I choose. All of your comments aren't going to change my thought process nor do I expect mine to change your way of thinking. Like I said, it's all good.

Peace.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Hay guys, the original question was what is the difference between TiVo and WMC, not the difference between people who use WMC and people who don't. I think at 233 posts the original question has been answered to death, the difference in people will never have an answer, so let kill this thread as it has done its job.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I couldn't agree more.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> And personally a few years there were some very pragmatic reasons to go with WMC over a Premiere. WMC had 4 tuners and extenders and a speedier UI. The Premiere's default storage was also pretty laughably low by most measures. Now WMC has none of those advantages. And MS has discontinued further support on top of it.


Yeah. There was also the whole server/client model, where with TiVo you had to have one box per room, with CableCards after HD came around. Before that, in the analog/ Clear QAM days, you could have a whole ton of tuners stacked into one HTPC, integrate OTA HDTV before some cable companies ever had HD, etc, etc. But the biggest thing was the extenders. Now TiVo has TiVo Mini, every cable company is all-digital and has just about every HD under the sun, etc, etc.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Not exactly. I just like HTPCs. I also happen to like Tivos. I use WMC because it's the only available option for receiving and recording encrypted digital cable on a PC.


False, unless you are making the trivial distinction that it must be recorded by the same device that stores the video. Editing encrypted videos from the HTPC is problematical, and saving encrypted videos in such a way that they will survive the loss of the HTPC is impossible.



Bigg said:


> True, it is the only option for using a PC to record digital cable.


False



Bigg said:


> So it proves that until another software solution is developed, recording cable on a PC isn't viable. It's too bad that BeyondTV and SageTV were never able to grow into CableCard and become viable competitors to TiVo. The concept of running a centralized server based on a PC by adding your own hardware is great.


Hmm. Not so much, really. I much prefer to NOT have the tuners loaded into the centralized server. I recently upgraded the arrays in my main servers to 24T, but neither one has a tuner. The TiVos have them.



mr.unnatural said:


> Actually, it's the only option for recording channels marked as copy once. There are several options for recording digital cable over and above WMC as long as the channels are flagged as copy freely.


Misleading. When I was with a CATV system that copy protected everything, I freely copied and edited encrypted, copy protected videos transferred from my TiVos. Well, of course they weren't either encrypted or protected when they got copied, but they were one or both leaving the headend.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mschnebly said:


> For you! Just because you don't have the right skills to set up an HTPC properly so that it's rock solid doesnt mean others can't. About once every quarter I run windows patching, reboot and forget about it. It is far more dependable than my Premiere ever was.


You seem to have little notion of what "rock solid" means. If I had to reboot any server once a quarter, it would go sailing out the door. Any device that has to be rebooted every three months is far, far from being rock solid. Admittedly the Premiere is not as stable as the S3 platform, or at least the one the CATV company provides me is not, but my S3s are rarely rebooted. Aside from extended power outages, my servers get rebooted once every two or three years or so.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lrhorer said:


> False, unless you are making the trivial distinction that it must be recorded by the same device that stores the video. Editing encrypted videos from the HTPC is problematical, and saving encrypted videos in such a way that they will survive the loss of the HTPC is impossible.
> 
> False


Don't understand what your getting at here. Media center is the only PC based software approved by Cable Labs to record encrypted digital cable using a CableCARD. You seem to be implying that you can use a TiVo to record the shows and then simply offload them to some of network storage. Which is true with some channels, but not all. And that functionality can be taken away from you by the cable company at any time. Just ask any TWC user.

That being said if your cable company decides to set the CCI byte you're SOL no matter what platform you use to record it. A protected WTV file can only be played on the PC that created it, and you can even have trouble if you swap out a few parts and reload the OS. The biggest advantage it has over TiVo is that all files are portable, so you can backup and move any WTV file as long as you still have the original machine to play it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Bigg said:


> Same difference. They force the providers to flag them. Yes, providers that flag stuff they shouldn't be flagging are evil. It's amazing that they would waste their time and money flagging stuff just to screw their own customers over.


Not really. Can you say MPAA? They wield some big guns, and they have their fingers deep into the guts of a lot of CATV companies. Stop and think... who used to own Time Warner Cable outright?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Don't understand your getting at here. Media center is the only PC based software approved by Cable Labs to record encrypted digital cable using a CableCARD.


If you are insisting the same device that records the video stores the data, then you have a point. Using one device to record and another to store the video makes the point moot. What is a approved by CableLabs and what is possible are also two very different things.



Dan203 said:


> You seem to be implying that you can use a TiVo to record the shows and then simply offload them to some of network storage.


Over 12,000 Gigabytes (over 2000 videos), so far, converted to MP4 / h.264 via VideoRedo. (Feel free to insert a blatant plug for your software here, although it has no bearing on encryption or CCI.)



Dan203 said:


> Which is true with some channels, but not all.


False.



Dan203 said:


> And that functionality can be taken away from you by the cable company at any time.


Not legally, at least not at this time.



Dan203 said:


> Just ask any TWC user.


You seem to forget: I was a TWC user. San Antonio was one of the first, if not the very first, city to be treated to the joys of CCI > 0, and most of our channels were not only encrypted, they were SDV. More than 90% of my videos were set to CCI 0x01 by TWC, and more than 50% were on SDV channels.



Dan203 said:


> That being said if your cable company decides to set the CCI byte you're SOL no matter what platform you use to record it.


Not true. Those of us with S3 class TiVos and a smidgen of gumption can sail on uninterrupted and unperturbed.



Dan203 said:


> A protected WTV file can only be played on the PC that created it, and you can even have trouble if you swap out a few parts and reload the OS.


Which is a very big reason I cannot ever recommend an HTPC, especially not on a system like TWC.



Dan203 said:


> The biggest advantage it has over TiVo is that all files are portable, so you can backup and move any WTV file as long as you still have the original machine to play it.


How many machines will still be around substantially intact 20 years from when they were purchased? I have videos I recorded from 2006 onwards. I'm not sure there is a single piece of hardware still around from when the earliest ones were recorded, and I know there is no software. Not only can I play them all without the original hardware, I could, if I choose, play them on virtually any piece of modern hardware, anywhere.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lrhorer said:


> Not legally, at least not at this time.


Yes they can. They are allowed to flag every channel except broadcast channels as copy never if they want.



lrhorer said:


> Not true. Those of us with S3 class TiVos and a smidgen of gumption can sail on uninterrupted and unperturbed.


What you are doing is technically a violation of the DMCA and you could be prosecuted if you were caught. Now the chance of that happening is nill, but there is a reason TiVos have gotten progressively more secure over the generations. These companies put a lot of pressure on TiVo to sure up the devices specifically to prevent what you're doing. And if the industry ever moves on from CableCARDs you're going to be SOL because they're going to make sure the next generation stuff is locked down air tight.

Now I'm not routing against you. Heck our business depends on customers like you. But we can see where the industry is headed and eventually archiving content is no longer going to be possible. There are even provisions in place that will allow MSOs to disable analog outputs, remotely, if they meet certain requirements. Once the loop is closed we're all going to be SOL.



lrhorer said:


> How many machines will still be around 20 years from when they were purchased? I have videos I recorded from 2006 onwards. I'm not sure there is a single piece of hardware still around from when the earliest ones were recorded, and I know there is no software. Not only can I play them all without the original hardware, I could, if I choose, play them on virtually any piece of modern hardware, anywhere.


Yeah TiVo's scheme is much more flexible in that respect. Their public key encryption method allows any device on the same account to play a recording. Although that's moot if you have no way of moving the recording off of the original device.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> A few years ago WMC had a lot going for it over Tivo. But now WMC has none of these advantages it had. I mentioned these earlier in this thread.


Sure it does - it's still cheaper than Tivo for whole house once you get beyond a couple of TVs. I've seen your arguments saying that it's not and don't agree with them (for the reasonably tech-savvy among us, that is - certain folks here had no business rolling up WMC).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Not true. Those of us with S3 class TiVos and a smidgen of gumption can sail on uninterrupted and unperturbed.


That's fine except that you have now entered a gray area that is not allowed for discussion here. Eveything we're talking about here is stock hardware and software, not something you had to hack to get around encryption issues or the CCI byte. The only modifications being discussed are all legal add-ons for WMC that tweak it for additional features or appearance.

AFAIK, any Tivo newer than a series 3 cannot be hacked to circumvent this issue. A lot of people that want the added tuners or extender capabilities that Tivo offers will likely opt for the newer models, making your argument completely moot. FWIW, my last S3 had a PROM mod that allowed me to do exactly what you're referring to. I'm on FIOS so I don't need any of that with my HTPC since I can simply transfer files over my network without the need for any special software (i.e., Tivo Desktop or kttmg) and edit them with VideoReDo. If I was on a system that flagged the content then it would be another matter entirely. It really doesn't matter to me since I gave up archiving TV shows years ago. It just takes up too much storage and I'll probably never get around to watching anything I've saved. I've already got over 20TB of movies and videos on my server that I will probably never have the opportunity to watch in my lifetime.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Not exactly. I just like HTPCs. I also happen to like Tivos. I use WMC because it's the only available option for receiving and recording encrypted digital cable on a PC.
> 
> 
> lrhorer said:
> ...


Not true at all, at least not in my case since I'm on FIOS. There are scripts available that will automatically transfer recordings to a server or other type of network storage once the recording has completed. If the shows are flagged then it can be problematic. I don't rack up a lot of recordings before I watch them so anything I would lose is minimal at best. Besides, there's always torrents to retrieve lost shows.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Yes they can. They are allowed to flag every channel except broadcast channels as copy never if they want.


They can flag whatever they want, other than broadcast channels.



Dan203 said:


> What you are doing is technically a violation of the DMCA and you could be prosecuted if you were caught.


Nope. CableLabs is not a regulatory authority at any level, the fact their actions (not the user's) are mandated by FCC regulations notwithstanding. CATV companies are required to support CableCards, but they are not even required to forbid non-compliant devices from being attached to their network. They are allowed to refuse to support such devices, however.

Oh, and just for the record, I'm not doing anything with the CCI byte. I'm no longer with TWC, remember? My current CATV provider does not aggressively set the CCI byte, so any one of my neighbors has an option to avoid the CCI byte restrictions merely by dumping TWC.



Dan203 said:


> Now the chance of that happening is nill, but there is a reason TiVos have gotten progressively more secure over the generations.


Per CableLabs specs. CableLabs specs have no force of law.



Dan203 said:


> These companies put a lot of pressure on TiVo to sure up the devices specifically to prevent what you're doing.


No company has any legal authority. They often act as if they do, and people buy into it, but they do not. There are regulations which in some cases protect companies from various influences, but those regs are produced by legal authorities, not by the companies themselves. The fact the companies often have legislators in their hip pockets is another matter.

It' also true TiVo must acquiesce to the pressure from the CATV industry in order to survive, but that, also, is in no way a matter of law.



Dan203 said:


> And if the industry ever moves on from CableCARDs you're going to be SOL because they're going to make sure the next generation stuff is locked down air tight.


So would every owner of any S3+ TiVo and any HTPC. As far as being locked down tight, the S4+ systems already pretty much are.



Dan203 said:


> Now I'm not routing against you. Heck our business depends on customers like you. But we can see where the industry is headed and eventually archiving content is no longer going to be possible.


I wouldn't bet on it, but if it happens, it happens. My library is already pretty comprehensive, and I long ago realized no one can prevent a fool from giving away his freedoms. This is a pretty niche freedom, so gaining a lot of grass roots support for a stand against such a restriction is going to be pretty hopeless. OTOH, Macrovision and DRM on music both failed pretty miserably, so maybe in the long run so will copy protection on CATV feeds.
There are even provisions in place that will allow MSOs to disable analog outputs, remotely, if they meet certain requirements. Once the loop is closed we're all going to be SOL.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> That's fine except that you have now entered a gray area that is not allowed for discussion here. Eveything we're talking about here is stock hardware and software


Calling any HTPC "stock" is stretching it.



mr.unnatural said:


> not something you had to hack to get around encryption issues or the CCI byte. The only modifications being discussed are all legal add-ons for WMC that tweak it for additional features or appearance.


I won't go into the details of the modifications here because their discussion is indeed frowned upon in this forum, but that in no way makes them illegal and it certainly does not mean they do not exist.



mr.unnatural said:


> AFAIK, any Tivo newer than a series 3 cannot be hacked to circumvent this issue.


Correct, at least for the moment.



mr.unnatural said:


> A lot of people that want the added tuners or extender capabilities that Tivo offers will likely opt for the newer models, making your argument completely moot.


If even one person prefers to keep their old units, then the argument is by definition not completely moot. It is an option.



mr.unnatural said:


> It just takes up too much storage and I'll probably never get around to watching anything I've saved. I've already got over 20TB of movies and videos on my server that I will probably never have the opportunity to watch in my lifetime.


It's not about watching or not watching any particular program. It is about having the choice available.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Calling any HTPC "stock" is stretching it.


Not at all. Stick a tuner in any off-the-shelf PC and you've got an instant HTPC. In fact, any PC that is used for any type of media playback is considered a HTPC by definition.



> I won't go into the details of the modifications here because their discussion is indeed frowned upon in this forum, but that in no way makes them illegal and it certainly does not mean they do not exist.


No need. Been there and done that.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lrhorer said:


> Nope. CableLabs is not a regulatory authority at any level, the fact their actions (not the user's) are mandated by FCC regulations notwithstanding. CATV companies are required to support CableCards, but they are not even required to forbid non-compliant devices from being attached to their network. They are allowed to refuse to support such devices, however.


The DMCA is very broad and basically says that you are not allowed to take any steps to circumvent copy protection of any kind. So by hacking your TiVo to allow the CCI byte to be disabled you have violated the DMCA.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> False


Actually, it is the only system that CableLabs certified, and fully functional. There are other systems that can get certain channels, or ClearQAM, but not everything.



> Hmm. Not so much, really. I much prefer to NOT have the tuners loaded into the centralized server. I recently upgraded the arrays in my main servers to 24T, but neither one has a tuner. The TiVos have them.


In which case, you're not using a PC DVR, so what's your point?



lrhorer said:


> Not really. Can you say MPAA? They wield some big guns, and they have their fingers deep into the guts of a lot of CATV companies. Stop and think... who used to own Time Warner Cable outright?


Comcast and FIOS only flags HBO. Everything else is unflagged. So it's not mandated by the cable providers. Comcast and FIOS are doing it right, TWC is not.



Dan203 said:


> Yes they can. They are allowed to flag every channel except broadcast channels as copy never if they want.


They legally can, but it's still a botched implementation of what the CCI was supposed to do (well it never should have existed, but that's another story).



Dan203 said:


> The DMCA is very broad and basically says that you are not allowed to take any steps to circumvent copy protection of any kind. So by hacking your TiVo to allow the CCI byte to be disabled you have violated the DMCA.


Technically true, but it's hard to do much of anything these days without violating the DMCA. Heck, the legality of Jailbreaking an iPhone has been questioned based on the DMCA.


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## iamevan (Mar 3, 2014)

Hello all,

I'm soon to be a new TiVo user that made the switch from a custom built HTPC running Windows 8 with Media Center with a Ceton InfiniTV 6 tuner. The Ceton tuner and Windows Media Center has been a real let down, it works as advertised but I've expereienced numerous issues. 

The major one being stuttering/flickering when watching certain channels. You can read more about it by Google searching 'Ceton 29/59 bug' or 'HBO (and other channels) rapid framerate changing - stuttering'. 

I also have other issues including: audio loss for a few seconds when a show goes to commercial break, recordings starting late, series recordings being canceled after deleting a watched show, the guide listings are inaccurate for some channels, and various other bugs in WMC (one for example, at times when I try to open the guide listings it will instead open my recorded shows list).

The problems resides between Ceton, Microsoft, and the channel broadcasters so there is little hope for anything to be fixed anytime soon.

I just wanted to share my expereience with WMC. When software is no longer supported many issues begin to arise. I'm hoping my soon to arrive TiVo Roamio Pro will be a lot better. I assume part of the monthly subscription is used for future updates and patches which is what Ceton and MS WMC so desperately need.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Sorry to hear you had problems with WMC. However, you're dealing with a PC platform so there are bound to be gremlins that creep in on occasion.

Who's your provider? I've never tried WMC on Windows 8 since Windows 7 is a very stable platform for Media Center. I used to see some flickering on HBO and a few other channels on FIOS with my InfiniTV 4 tuners until I installed a low-pass filter. The MoCA setup using the FIOS router interferes with certain channels. I no longer subscribe to HBO so I can't say whether this is still an ongoing issue, but I suspect it is. 

I used to get video dropouts (i.e., screen going black) on occasion for about 10 seconds when a commercial break occurred, but it turned out to be an EDID issue that was easily resolved by using a HDMI Detective. There are less expensive ways to get around it by using an inf file.

Are you sending the audio to an AVR or other outboard device? Are you using analog or digital audio output? This could simply be a matter of properly configuring the audio device or it could be something else entirely.

Incorrect guide listing issues are a problem with Zap2it since they provide the guide data for WMC. 

If you're trying to open the guide listings from the main menu, try using the Guide button on the remote instead. I used to have the same problem trying to access the guide from the menu system but it never occurs when I access it directly from the remote. I still don't know if this is a glitch with WMC or the codes used to program the remote.

The canceled series problem sounds like the option to delete a show is being supplanted by the Cancel Series option for some reason. Do you watch the show all the way to the end and then let it revert to the options menu without pressing the Stop button? There are situations where the menu has the Cancel Series option listed instead of the Delete option for the recording. You may be pressing the buttons too quickly to notice, resulting in the series cancellation. 

For the recordings that started late, do you have any padding set up in the record settings? Were the truncated shows started immediately after another show ended? I pad all of my shows before and after the start and stop times and I've never had one start late unless there was a last minute schedule change or the show was preceded by a sporting event that ran over.

Which software are you implying is no longer supported? Just because WMC isn't being developed any further doesn't mean it's not supported. The fact that you can still download it from Microsoft and install it on a Windows 8 platform bears this out. That and the fact that you can still get guide data for free. There are several support forums that deal with WMC.

In any case, many of the issues you mentioned are typical of problems some people may have with WMC PCs. It helps to have some PC troubleshooting skills to resolve them, which is why this is an enthusiast's device and not an appliance. Sometime it works perfectly fine while on other occasions you may have to deal with issues like the ones above. I went through more than my share of growing pains in my early days with HTPCs, but my perseverence has paid off in the long run.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I just checked my HTPC to confirm what I was saying about the delete option vs. the cancel series option and here's what's going on:

If you stop the program prior to playing it to completion, you will see the option to delete at the top of the list. If you allow the program to run all the way to the end and automatically display the dialog window with the three options, the topmost option is "cancel series." I suspect what you are doing is running the show to the end and then selecting the topmost option out of habit without seeing what it is you're selecting, which results in your series being canceled. 

The best fix for this is to pad the recording at the end and then stop it after the program completes instead of letting it run. This will present you with the option to delete it rather than canceling the series.

Otherwise, restart playback and then stop it after a few seconds. You will now see the option to delete rather than cancel. I've always padded my recordings so this never ended up being a problem for me. I can see how this could be annoying to anyone that doesn't pad their recordings.

The bottom line is that WMC isn't canceling the series. You're doing it yourself. Granted, it is a bit confusing and the option could have been presented in a better manner to prevent this from happening, but it is what it is. Just look a little closer to the option before you select it in the future and you'll be fine.


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## iamevan (Mar 3, 2014)

mr.unnatural said:


> *Who's your provider?*
> 
> Comcast, but I believe the stuttering/flickering occurs with other providers as well.
> 
> ...


Responses above. :up:


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## iamevan (Mar 3, 2014)

mr.unnatural said:


> I just checked my HTPC to confirm what I was saying about the delete option vs. the cancel series option and here's what's going on:
> 
> If you stop the program prior to playing it to completion, you will see the option to delete at the top of the list. If you allow the program to run all the way to the end and automatically display the dialog window with the three options, the topmost option is "cancel series." I suspect what you are doing is running the show to the end and then selecting the topmost option out of habit without seeing what it is you're selecting, which results in your series being canceled.
> 
> ...


I thought it was accidentally canceling the series as well but like I said in the post above, I'm always careful to only select 'delete'. Almost all the time I 'stop' the show and then delete it, I very rarely let it run to the end and then delete.

It doesn't happened all the time either, it's probably only happened to me 3 times in the 6 months I've had my HTPC. It's not a major issue, just annoying. It usually can be caught by checking the series history and looking for any shows that have 'canceled' listed next to it.


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## iamevan (Mar 3, 2014)

Here is the Ceton article on the stuttering/flickering 29/59 bug.

http://cetoncorp.com/support/index....hannels-rapid-framerate-changing---stuttering

This issue is the main reason I'm switching to a TiVo. There are ways to lessen the stuttering/flickering but no way to really eliminate it without changing hardware parts or using an Xbox 360 as an extender.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

You've definitely got some weird issues going on. I had heard about the 29/59 bug, but only experienced something similar as a result of interference with my Actiontek router on FIOS. Once I installed the low pass filter it fixed the problem, hence my query about who your provider is. I've been mainly using the HD graphics from Intel Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge CPUs and most recently a Radeon HD7770 graphics card, none of which have exhibited the bug you described.

That's the thing about HTPCs. Sometimes you roll the dice and get hardware that works well together and other times you get issues like what you described. That's why I always recommend going with a pre-tested and recommended configuration when selecting HTPC hardware. It eliminates a lot of headaches.

I can't explain what's happening with your canceled series other than what I described. Have you tried using a WMC remote instead of your keyboard or Ceton app? I can only assume that certain keyboard commands aren't being translated properly. I can't recall ever canceling a series unless I actually selected the option, whether intentionally or by mistake. I use a Harmony One remote programmed for use with a WMC PC and it works great.

I agree that there are definitely unresolved issues with WMC and it sucks that it's no longer being updated. It's far from perfect. It's also the only DVR app available for a PC that can record flagged content with a cablecard tuner. With the right combination of hardware and software, it can work quite well as a DVR and whole house media center. Otherwise, it can have you tearing your hair out and shouting obscenities at Microsoft and any other hardware or software vendor involved. I have the misfrotune of having to use Microsoft Word on a regular basis so I find myself doing just that almost daily.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

I think the OP should get some recognition for this Thread as the original question was answered long ago, but the Thread keeps going, going, going. I guess the OP hit a nerve for many on this site.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

If you look at the history of this forum and many others, threads that should have died long ago always seem to resurface and go on indefinitely. This is one of the few threads I participate in so if someone posts something I am very likely to respond. If it bothers you, just ignore it and move on.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> If you look at the history of this forum and many others, threads that should have died long ago always seem to resurface and go on indefinitely. This is one of the few threads I participate in so if someone posts something I am very likely to respond. If it bothers you, just ignore it and move on.


I never said it bothers me I just find it amusing.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Laughter is good for the soul.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

It's a rather interesting topic, since they are the only two non-MSO options left for DVRs. However, it's also sort of a sad story, since CableCard has effectively come to supporting TiVo, and the few MCE boxes left.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

The real downside to WMC is for the couple of weeks a years when Microsoft stops providing guide data and you come close to running out before they send new data.

I, along with a lot of other people, seem to have run into this again - given guide data lasing up to March 21, 2014. Microsoft knew of the problem last week, and supposedly fixed it, but the updated guide has yet to fully propagate.

Not much of a problem if the WMC guide would properly identify new episodes a la TiVo, but when I have to copy my TiVo's To-Do list to WMC, a huge annoyance as there's no recordings set for next week.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Microsoft is aware of the issue and has supposedly sent out a fix. It may take some time before it reaches your PC, but it should hopefully get into place before the current guide listings run out. They actually issued a letter of apology and admitted that they dropped the ball by getting sidetracked on another unrelated problem.

One thing I found interesting about this scenario is that I discovered that Zap2it sends the guide data to Microsoft for processing and distribution to WMC users. They do the same with Tivo so it appears that each source is tweaking the data specifically for the designated platform. That could certainly account for the lack of certain metadata being included in the WMC guide listings.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Yeah, I know. I've had WMC for a few years now, and it happens at least once a year that Microsoft drops the ball and you get down to 1 day of guide before update. It's fairly regular, it seems. The last time it happened I found the Microsoft Connect website that covered the issue.

And yes, they may have fixed it, but no, no new guide data at all.

Of course, other times they screwed up the lineups and you basically had to re-do the setup twice (once to use some other location's lineups, again to reset it back to your location).

There was a really unusual case where Microsoft completely screwed up the lineups in our area. Luckily there were enough Connect users that it was easily identified as being limited to the entire city.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Guide data updated last night. I have data at least up to 3/31/14 now.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

mr.unnatural said:


> Guide data updated last night. I have data at least up to 3/31/14 now.


While this has happened before, this is still not a good sign. MS is not obligated to provide guide service and with them basically disbanding the WMC team, I can this this happening again. And next time MS may say "OK we will start charging for the service.", but most likely they'll just end it.

I'm using my three Tivo's for cable and WMC for OTA. If MS drops support, I'll just convert my HTPV to XBMC and get my guide data from Schedules Direct. Sadly freeware products often have better support than MS products since MS is quick to drop something if it doesn't fit their vision (or profit projections).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

No need to switch to XBMC if you're happy with WMC. You can import your guide data from Schedules Direct using Big Screen EPG:

http://bigscreenglobal.com/bgproduct.aspx?PID=BSEV1

I've been looking into this so as to avoid any future guide data outages if Microsoft has another brain fart. OTOH, although this has happened several times in the past, I've never actually run out of guide data. Microsoft has always managed to get things squared away before that happened.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

So you pay SD every year, then after that pay Big Screen too. Nice.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> So you pay SD every year, then after that pay Big Screen too. Nice.


Big Screen EPG costs a whopping $2 per PC per year and is basically just a tool for importing guide data in xml format into WMC. Schedules Direct is $25 per year for the full guide data. I've got three HTPCs so it would cost a grand total of $31 annually. I prefer free, but $31 a year isn't going to break the bank.

Like I said, I have only been looking into it. So far I've never actually run out of guide data since I've switched to WMC so chances are I'll stick with what I have. It's just nice to know there are options available. Some people have noted their displeasure in the WMC guide data so it's nice to have an alternative solution.


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## titus23 (Mar 19, 2014)

Tivo has free space indicator that can be displayed on the My Shows list, Media Center makes you dig in the settings to find it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

A free space indicator is a WAG in most cases. Just about every program on every channel is broadcast with different bit rates and is determined by the provider. The resulting file size for any given recorded program can vary considerably. 

Free space is only an issue if you tend to hoard recordings and not purge them to make room for new ones. The best protection against loss of recordings is to make sure your hard drive is large enough to handle any worst case scenario. This holds true for both Tivo and HTPCs.

Case in point, no recordings will ever reside on my HTPC recording drive for more than a week to 10 days unless I'm out of town for more than a week. I watch most shows within 3-4 days of being recorded. I only have a 1.5TB drive for recording, but it rarely gets more than half full.

FYI, just looking at the drive in Windows Explorer indicates how much space is available. You don't need a special app to figure it out nor do you have to dig into any settings to find it.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> You waited a whole 10 days before stirring the pot this time. You must be slacking off.
> 
> Nobody is trying to convince you that WMC is better than your Tivo. You use whatever suits your needs and I'll keep using WMC or whatever PC-based setup I desire. I just picked up a SageTV server license so I plan on playing with that when I can find the time. I'd also like to take a crack at using Media Portal and the latest XBMC version that supports cablecards. This thread was supposed to be about WMC so I haven't branched out to discuss those areas in more detail.
> 
> ...


The WMC setup now makes for a much worse comparison to Tivo than it did a few years ago. That's why the Tivo is the way to go. That's all. That''s today's reality.

You can post paragraphs of well maybe this or that will work in the future if I do this or that or if you spend this or that amount of money and put in this amount of time etc etc then you can get it to this or that point and you can get these extra things if you do install this or that .....it just all acknowledges the larger truth. Tivo is the way go.

I enjoy my WMC setup, but I'm not blind. I can't say the same thing for you.

This thread is about differences in the platforms and the differences have tilted in Tivo's favor. I don't have to convince anyone. The facts speak for themselves. And this doesn't mean WMC can't do the job. Or doesn't do the job. OR won't be someone's cup of tea. And that you or anyone else including myself can't and doesn't enjoy WMC. But the facts have changed the past few years. I am just acknowledging today's reality.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> A free space indicator is a WAG in most cases. Just about every program on every channel is broadcast with different bit rates and is determined by the provider. The resulting file size for any given recorded program can vary considerably.
> 
> Free space is only an issue if you tend to hoard recordings and not purge them to make room for new ones. The best protection against loss of recordings is to make sure your hard drive is large enough to handle any worst case scenario. This holds true for both Tivo and HTPCs.
> 
> ...


 The fact is Tivo makes it easier to see your recording space usage.

The guy wasn't arguing whether you use it or not. He's just pointing out a difference between the two systems.

And it was a feature owners of older Tivo models wanted to see happen.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Big Screen EPG costs a whopping $2 per PC per year and is basically just a tool for importing guide data in xml format into WMC. Schedules Direct is $25 per year for the full guide data. I've got three HTPCs so it would cost a grand total of $31 annually. I prefer free, but $31 a year isn't going to break the bank.
> 
> Like I said, I have only been looking into it. So far I've never actually run out of guide data since I've switched to WMC so chances are I'll stick with what I have. It's just nice to know there are options available. Some people have noted their displeasure in the WMC guide data so it's nice to have an alternative solution.


Another case for why Tivo is the way to go.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

My WMC guide data wasn't updating either. Had 2 day's worth of listings left. Finally updated.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> Sure it does - it's still cheaper than Tivo for whole house once you get beyond a couple of TVs. I've seen your arguments saying that it's not and don't agree with them (for the reasonably tech-savvy among us, that is - certain folks here had no business rolling up WMC).


WMC had a big advantage in price a few years ago because Tivo had no extenders. That advantage isn't there today.

The cheaper part is a stretch today compared to a few years ago.

Yes you can most likely get a 360 for quite a bit cheaper than the list price of a Mini. Maybe you own one already. But I'd say the Mini by most accounts seems like the better extender. WAy more efficient. Much much smaller. And comes with a better remote for tv viewing than a 360. I wouldn't doubt a Mini would save you $10/yr or more on electricity costs either. So it isn't an apples to apples comparison.

Your only other realistic option is the Ceton extender and that's not had very good good reviews at all. And comes with a crap remote.

On the pc front I don't think things are much cheaper for an equivalent device either. You can build dirt cheap pcs, but again not apples to apples comparison then. Heat, noise, size, efficiency are worse in cheaper pcs.

Then there's the time factor. Being capable of doing something and having the time to do it are two different things. And getting something for cheaper that is going to require many more hours of work to get going than the more expensive thing that doesn't require any time isn't an apples to apples comparison either. Time is money.

Otherwise it is like saying Coke is cheaper than Pepsi if you're looking for a cola but then finding out Pepsi requires you to spend hours to mix the ingredients before you can enjoy it. I mean that would be a big asterisk then, right, by any reasonable measure. Wouldn't you feel a bit pissed if someone said this car is much cheaper and then you went to get it and discovered that it is but you put to install a bunch of parts on it. Not only that but it comes with a bunch of gift cards and not the actual parts. You have to shop for your parts using the gift cards that came with your car. IT's cheaper though right?


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

I love you guys always singing to the choir. I mean this is a TiVo site so I surely don't expect you to claim anything is better than your TiVo. LOL, for whatever reason my HTPC and been trouble free for the last couple of years. Maybe I'm just lucky. Using our Harmony One, my wife only knows it by "The Cable Box" and has no problems at all. My TiVo Premiere has been happily sitting in the closet unplugged and that's where it will stay. It would lockup way too much for me. TiVo's are fine for those who cant build an HTPC to be problem free. When my HTTP becomes obsolete I'll probably get the Comcast X1. Everyone should just use what you like best. I don't want to change anyone's mind on TiVo and none of your problems with HTPCs will change mine. We should just use what works.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mschnebly said:


> I love you guys always singing to the choir. I mean this is a TiVo site so I surely don't expect you to claim anything is better than your TiVo. LOL, for whatever reason my HTPC and been trouble free for the last couple of years. Maybe I'm just lucky. Using our Harmony One, my wife only knows it by "The Cable Box" and has no problems at all. My TiVo Premiere has been happily sitting in the closet unplugged and that's where it will stay. It would lockup way too much for me. TiVo's are fine for those who cant build an HTPC to be problem free. When my HTTP becomes obsolete I'll probably get the Comcast X1. Everyone should just use what you like best. I don't want to change anyone's mind on TiVo and none of your problems with HTPCs will change mine. We should just use what works.


It isn't about changing minds. This thread is about discussing facts. A few years ago WMC had 4 tuners and Tivo had 2. A few years ago WMC had extenders and Tivo didn't. A few years ago the hd space in a base Tivo was crap. A few years you couldn't just pop a new hd into your Tivo. A few years ago your Tivo didn't stream to your mobile device. A few years ago the Tivo UI was sluggish. The list goes on.

But it's 2014. None of this is true today. WMC has stagnated. And today MS no longer supports future development of the platform. The facts today take us to Tivo with little to no reason to choose WMC.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Not only that, but WMC brings a lot of the whole "PC" experience to TV. And I'm not talking about the good things. It's got all the little niggles and annoyances inherent in a Windows PC brought to TV.

But in the end, I use WMC because my TiVos don't work with our cable system anymore. It's sort of the runner up experience. I'm glad I have it because it's way more advanced than the cable box. It's just the niggles and annoyances that bring it down.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

This entire thread has been about comparing apples to oranges. Aside from basic DVR functions, the common areas shared between Tivo and HTPCs are few and far between. One device is a plug and play appliance whereas the other is a hobbyist's tool. You have to decide for yourself whether you're just a TV watcher or a hobbyist. Just know that a HTPC can be a frustrating experience for some, but the end result can be quite rewarding. If WMC doesn't float your boat then there are quite a few alternatives out there that might, albeit with certain limitations when it comes to encrypted TV channels.

While Microsoft has stopped any further development of WMC, third parties continue to develop apps and tweaks to improve the experience. WMC certainly isn't the final solution and it won't appeal to everyone. It's got issues and can be a nightmare to work with on occasion, but Tivo has it's own set of problems. These forums are riddled with threads about issues people have with Tivos so if you think they're perfect then you're just fooling yourself. OTOH, I have personally never experienced the vast majority of issues that have been reported for either Tivos or HTPCs. These problems tend to be more of the exception rather than the rule, but certain people would rather dwell on the negative than the positive. Most of the negative points that have been raised regarding HTPCs are just minor nits to me, and in most cases aren't even on my radar. If these things are that important then stick with what makes you happy.

Each system has pros and cons and each may excel in one or more areas where the other lacks. It all boils down to what you want to do and whether you want to invest any time in it. I was an old school Tivo tweaker going back to the very first models. I spent countless hours learning how to hack an "appliance" to make it better. Most of the features we put into our Tivos are now embedded in the OS and part of the basic platform. Aside from dealing with encryption issues, there really is no need to hack a Tivo anymore. The current Tivos are a direct result of things that were developed by hobbyists and tweakers (you're welcome, BTW  ).

Frankly, Tivos have become boring because of the simple fact that they are no longer a hobbyist's toy but have become an appliance that just does what it does. They're just not fun for me anymore, which is why I migrated to HTPCs. I can tweak and modify them to my heart's delight. I also like the fact that, instead of having multiple components to perform various tasks, I now have a one box solution that does everything and does them all quite well.

Tivos are for watching and recording TV and streaming from Netflix or whatever features Tivo decides to include with no approval from the user. HTPCs are for hobbyists that like to push the envelope and customize it for their own personal needs and desires. If you're afraid of potential problems with HTPCs then you should stick with Tivos. Arguing about one platform being better than the other for whatever reason is pointless. It's all about personal preference. 

If one platform has features that work better for you then that's probably the one you want to go with. Tivo has a lot of features that are done better than WMC and the software is more mature. WMC is lacking in areas where Tivo excels, but the platform allows for improvements that can be implemented by the user. In other words, HTPCs give you choices. Tivo gives you what Tivo, Inc., decides to give you.

HTPCs are more versatile than Tivos. That's an indisputable fact. Problems aside, HTPCs can do more than any Tivo out there. If your HTPC gives you problems, then it sucks to be you. It happens. If you decide to take that road then you should expect things to happen. OTOH, if your hardware and software selections are compatible, you shouldn't have any major issues.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I agree with mr.unnatural last post and will add one more thought. There is no reason you can not have both, in fact I have many TiVos, My HTPC, and streaming devices from 4 different companies all attached to the same TV (I am typing this in my lazy boy via my HTPC on my 50inch plasma). I say buy what you want (assumes you can afford it), don't worry about what other people say is better or best, and enjoy what you have.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> The WMC setup now makes for a much worse comparison to Tivo than it did a few years ago. That's why the Tivo is the way to go. That's all. That''s today's reality.
> 
> You can post paragraphs of well maybe this or that will work in the future if I do this or that or if you spend this or that amount of money and put in this amount of time etc etc then you can get it to this or that point and you can get these extra things if you do install this or that .....it just all acknowledges the larger truth. Tivo is the way go.
> 
> ...


Quite true.



trip1eX said:


> WMC had a big advantage in price a few years ago because Tivo had no extenders. That advantage isn't there today.
> 
> The cheaper part is a stretch today compared to a few years ago.


This is key. When it was $650 plus $7.95/mo PER TV, TiVo was a bad value proposition. Now at $250 per TV with no monthly cost, it's a much better option for households with multiple TVs.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> This entire thread has been about comparing apples to oranges. Aside from basic DVR functions, the common areas shared between Tivo and HTPCs are few and far between. One device is a plug and play appliance whereas the other is a hobbyist's tool. You have to decide for yourself whether you're just a TV watcher or a hobbyist. Just know that a HTPC can be a frustrating experience for some, but the end result can be quite rewarding. If WMC doesn't float your boat then there are quite a few alternatives out there that might, albeit with certain limitations when it comes to encrypted TV channels.
> 
> While Microsoft has stopped any further development of WMC, third parties continue to develop apps and tweaks to improve the experience. WMC certainly isn't the final solution and it won't appeal to everyone. It's got issues and can be a nightmare to work with on occasion, but Tivo has it's own set of problems. These forums are riddled with threads about issues people have with Tivos so if you think they're perfect then you're just fooling yourself. OTOH, I have personally never experienced the vast majority of issues that have been reported for either Tivos or HTPCs. These problems tend to be more of the exception rather than the rule, but certain people would rather dwell on the negative than the positive. Most of the negative points that have been raised regarding HTPCs are just minor nits to me, and in most cases aren't even on my radar. If these things are that important then stick with what makes you happy.
> 
> ...


 WMC was alot stronger a few years ago in comparison to Tivo. Even then WMC wasn't a choice for most because it was and still is a hobbyist thing. Today with Tivo stronger than WMC in every major way there just is no case for recommending it to 99% of people.

That's where I'm coming from. You can write paragraphs of hot air, but that's what it comes down to.

SAying htpcs are more versatile is too vague to be a fact and it says nothing about whether or not that versatility is even desirable. And when you say htpcs give you more choice you leave out big holes like WMC doesn't have AMazon on Demand and its Netflix plug-in hasn't been updated in eons.

No one has ever said don't get what you want or what will work for you. I think that goes without saying in every discussion in every forum ever.

I think your problem with regards to this discussion is you wanted a hobby. You didn't want a DVR per se. You wanted a computer hobby. And you don't really draw a line between the two and that blinds you from being a very accurate barometer of the state of these 2 platforms with regards to most people's needs.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> SAying htpcs are more versatile is too vague to be a fact and it says nothing about whether or not that versatility is even desirable. And when you say htpcs give you more choice you leave out big holes like WMC doesn't have AMazon on Demand and its Netflix plug-in hasn't been updated in eons.


I don't think anyone can dispute that HTPCs are more versatile than Tivos. It is a fact, whether you choose to believe it or not. Desirability of any feature has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

Netflix on a PC does not require WMC. You can get any streaming service on a PC regardless of whether it's an embedded app within WMC or as a standalone app in Windows. If you're only comparing WMC to Tivo then what you say is probably true. If you're looking at the overall PC platform then it couldn't be further from the truth.

FYI - For NetFlix viewing on a PC you don't need WMC or any special app. You can just stream it via your web browser.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yeah it's really dumb to try and say that Tivo's net apps are in any way comparable to what an HTPC can do. You'd be better off not mentioning them at all.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't think anyone can dispute that HTPCs are more versatile than Tivos. It is a fact, whether you choose to believe it or not. Desirability of any feature has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.
> 
> Netflix on a PC does not require WMC. You can get any streaming service on a PC regardless of whether it's an embedded app within WMC or as a standalone app in Windows. If you're only comparing WMC to Tivo then what you say is probably true. If you're looking at the overall PC platform then it couldn't be further from the truth.
> 
> FYI - For NetFlix viewing on a PC you don't need WMC or any special app. You can just stream it via your web browser.


Your definition of versatile is to go into Windows on your tv screen in your living room. That doesn't meet 99% of people's definition of "versatile" for a living room device. Or that versatility is undesirable for 99% of people's needs for a living room device.

And at its heart a Tivo is a computer no different than a pc. It runs Linux doesn't it? Nothing stopping you from doing anything on it except your own skill as a computer tinkerer.

Again you want a hobby. You don't even want a dvr. You seem to lose track of where one starts and the other stops.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> Your definition of versatile is to go into Windows on your tv screen in your living room. That doesn't meet 99% of people's definition of "versatile" for a living room device. Or that versatility is undesirable for 99% of people's needs for a living room device.
> 
> And at its heart a Tivo is a computer no different than a pc. It runs Linux doesn't it? Nothing stopping you from doing anything on it except your own skill as a computer tinkerer.
> 
> Again you want a hobby. You don't even want a dvr. You seem to lose track of where one starts and the other stops.


Now you're just arguing without absorbing anything that's been said. A HTPC is a hobbyist's device, as I have stated countless times. Anyone that uses a HTPC would have no problem using the Windows desktop on their PC. This is all part of the HTPC experience that goes beyond just using Media Center. First and foremost, a HTPC is a PC, not just a media player or DVR. Many people use their HTPCs for surfing the web, sending e-mails, streaming movies from NetFlix, Hulu, Amazon, etc., or even video gaming. This is what makes a HTPC more versatile than a Tivo. You don't have to add or use these features if you don't want them, but they can be easily added if you do. If they're not "desirable" to you, don't use them. At least you have choices with a HTPC. Tivo doesn't give you the option.

Tivos can no longer be hacked in their latest iteration so, yes, Tivo is stopping me and everyone else from doing anything to the latest Tivos. You can't even hack it to get a bash prompt anymore. With no way to interface with the OS, there's nothing that I or anyone else can do to control or modify it other than what Tivo allows via the user interface.

Anything that uses a microprocessor can be considered a computer these days. By that standard, your Tivo is as much a computer as your microwave or coffee maker. It's controlled by software or firmware and has a specific function. By PC standards, the CPU and memory used in a Tivo is minimal at best. It has nowhere near the performance of even a basic PC. Tivo only puts into it what is required to perform the tasks at hand. A HTPC can be modified to do anything you want and be as powerful as you want.

A HTPC goes beyond just being a DVR. I want a DVR, but I also want other features that a Tivo can't provide. HTPCs not only do what Tivos can do, they can also do much more. WMC doesn't have all of the same DVR features as a Tivo, but it works pretty well for recording my TV programs without skipping a beat. Tivo has a far better search engine and some other DVR functions where they excel, but most of them I never used even when I had a Tivo. You should relate to this as I never found them to be "desirable." 

FYI, nobody wants to take your Tivo away from you or tell you that a HTPC should replace it. This whole discussion is based on what the differences are between a Tivo and a HTPC and not why one is better or worse than the other. Each device is geared towards a certain type of user and each does what it is designed to do for the purpose intended. Tivo is for the user that just wants a plug and play DVR with the capability to stream videos from NetFlix and other similar features that go beyond what their cable or satellite provider offers with their DVRs. HTPCs are for hobbyists that want to push the envelope and add features beyond what a consumer device offers.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Yay, another WMC issue crops up suddenly - after starting the WMC app, it takes ~5 minutes to get into recorded TV.

Once in, it's great, I can get in and out quickly. But if I quit the WMC app, reboot, etc., it's another 5 minute wait entering recorded TV. 

Everything else is fine, though.

Odd, just happened today.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

If it's only happening right after booting up then I suspect that there are apps still initiating in the background that are bogging down the CPU or loading into memory from the hard drive. Once it settles down and everything is up and running it sounds like you don't have the same issue. 

I see this all the time on my desktop PC. When I first boot it takes a few minutes before I'm able to run any apps. Take a look at the hard drive activity indicator on the PC and see if it's still flashing when you try to open WMC. If it is, wait until it settles and stops flashing before attempting to get into WMC. I'll bet you can get right in if you wait a bit.

If you don't have a SSD for the OS, this is a good excuse to get one. Installing the OS on a SSD will radically improve your boot times and cut the startup time to a fraction of what it is now. I use one in my HTPC and it boots very quickly.

Do you have your HTPC configured so it boots into WMC on startup? You can set it up to do this automatically. I believe it's in the General Settings option under Windows Startup Behavior or something to that effect. I'd have to check to see exactly where the option is located. That's how I have mine setup so I don't have to deal with using a mouse or keyboard to start WMC. Once it starts I can navigate using my remote.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

No, it's not just on startup - it's anytime the WMC app starts. So if you start it, it takes 5 minutes. If you close it then reopen it, it takes 5 minutes.

And yes, it has WMC on SSD and a 3TB HDD for recordings. The thing is so overspec'ed that really, delays are abnormal, and it only started yesterday. With nothing changed, either - I didn't install anything, literally.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Worf said:


> No, it's not just on startup - it's anytime the WMC app starts. So if you start it, it takes 5 minutes. If you close it then reopen it, it takes 5 minutes.
> 
> And yes, it has WMC on SSD and a 3TB HDD for recordings. The thing is so overspec'ed that really, delays are abnormal, and it only started yesterday. With nothing changed, either - I didn't install anything, literally.


 Maybe you tried this already but have you tried running the task manger and check the processes screen to see what's running in the background. You might have changed nothing on the computer but something may have changed on it's own. Weird things can happen with computers.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

I've seen these kinds of slowdowns with some Windows Updates. Do you have yours doing auto downloads and installs? If so, maybe you can go back in time to a restore point before it started?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

There's definitely something hinky going on that's beyond normal. WMC shouldn't take five minutes or even 30 seconds to start up. I would definitely look into whatever changes have been made since the behavior presented itself.

Have you allowed Windows Update to install device drivers? This can happen and sometimes the results aren't always desirable. Anytime I see WU display a driver update I hide the update and seek out the latest driver myself rather than relying on Microsoft to get it right. I never let any updates install automatically and always check the list before allowing anything to get installed. The last time I let WU install a device driver it totally hosed my network connection.

If you run a Windows backup then you might want to consider rolling back your PC to an earlier configuration. If you're not doing a regular backup then you might want to start doing so once you get the issue resolved. Don't forget to create a rescue disc so it can recover the backup image and install it. Make sure the backup image is stored on a separate drive from your OS.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

It's not taking 5 minutes to start up, it's taking 5 minutes the first time to go into Recorded TV. After that, it's fast ,just the first one.

Though, I figured it out. Apparently something decided to put a bunch of network shares in the Recorded TV library area. That network share went down when the server OS hard drive took a crap and caused the server to crash continually. Removed the network shares from the Media Libraries area and all is good again.

It's those little things that annoy - you'd think they'd spawn that off to another thread or something so you don't sit there wondering if WMC is crashed....


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

That certainly explains it. I have an unRAID server that I configured to spin down the drives if they've been inactive for about 10-15 minutes. When I try to access the server it takes several minutes for everything to spin up so I can see the contents. In your case, WMC was looking for folders on the server and kept trying to find them, resulting in the extended delay. It eventually timed out and went with what was available. 

This is basically a Windows issue and not specifically related to WMC. It just happened that the folders it was looking for were mapped as part of the WMC Media Library. Had you tried to connect to the server via Windows Explorer from the desktop it would sit there for a length of time before timing out.

In any case, glad to hear you got it figured out. This is why HTPCs are geared towards hobbists that have the patience to deal with issues like this. It's still frustrating when it happens, but nothing catastrophic.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Now you're just arguing without absorbing anything that's been said. A HTPC is a hobbyist's device, as I have stated countless times. Anyone that uses a HTPC would have no problem using the Windows desktop on their PC. This is all part of the HTPC experience that goes beyond just using Media Center. First and foremost, a HTPC is a PC, not just a media player or DVR. Many people use their HTPCs for surfing the web, sending e-mails, streaming movies from NetFlix, Hulu, Amazon, etc., or even video gaming. This is what makes a HTPC more versatile than a Tivo. You don't have to add or use these features if you don't want them, but they can be easily added if you do. If they're not "desirable" to you, don't use them. At least you have choices with a HTPC. Tivo doesn't give you the option.
> 
> Tivos can no longer be hacked in their latest iteration so, yes, Tivo is stopping me and everyone else from doing anything to the latest Tivos. You can't even hack it to get a bash prompt anymore. With no way to interface with the OS, there's nothing that I or anyone else can do to control or modify it other than what Tivo allows via the user interface.
> 
> ...


The problem is you don't know where the hobby starts and stops. ONe half of the time you talk about WMC as if it is a plug and play device. When people call you on it you resort to falling back on the "I've always said its a hobbyist device" line.

But if you really thought WMC was a hobbyist device like most of us do you then wouldn't argue with someone when they say Tivo is the way to go today.

My whole point has been that a few years ago WMC had some advantages to it that were major advantages. Not minor ones or debatable advantages. And it still had MS support. The case for WMC was much much stronger a few years ago. Even then it had its hobbyist hurdles standing in the way, but certainly there was a much greater reward for overcoming those obstacles back then if you wanted a DVR.

Today those major rewards don't exist. Today there just is very little case for WMC over Tivo. That is just the bottom line. Today's reality.

Exceptions are there of course. You want a hobby. You want to fool around with storing various media on your pc and digitizing discs etc etc then by all means. But that kind of person really isn't comparing Tivo to WMC in the first place.

No one says you have to stop liking WMC. But you could take the blinders off and stop pretending like WMC is in the same position relative to Tivo that it was a few years ago.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> That certainly explains it. I have an unRAID server that I configured to spin down the drives if they've been inactive for about 10-15 minutes. When I try to access the server it takes several minutes for everything to spin up so I can see the contents. In your case, WMC was looking for folders on the server and kept trying to find them, resulting in the extended delay. It eventually timed out and went with what was available.
> 
> This is basically a Windows issue and not specifically related to WMC. It just happened that the folders it was looking for were mapped as part of the WMC Media Library. Had you tried to connect to the server via Windows Explorer from the desktop it would sit there for a length of time before timing out.
> 
> In any case, glad to hear you got it figured out. This is why HTPCs are geared towards hobbists that have the patience to deal with issues like this. It's still frustrating when it happens, but nothing catastrophic.


May not be related to WMC, but it's something that we can say should've been handled better in the end. I mean, WMC knows they're network shares, so it should be prepared to handle the extremely common case that a network share goes down.

Imagine if the share was on a laptop that goes in and out of the house, finding the cause of it would be almost impossible. Or even if it was inside the house, but on flaky WiFi.

Yeah, you do run into problems with disappearing shows, but that can be handled with a simple placeholder saying "Server \\Server is not responding" placeholder in the list instead of stalling the entire WMC app for minutes.

And no, I didn't connect to my home server. I know something in it was flaky (turned out the main system drive was failing) so I never bothered. Considering I use it as a network backup server rather than a media server (Home Server is probably one of the best backup and restore systems out there - it's quiet, it works, and it's automatic), I never considered that it would have done this.

To me, I don't care whose fault it is - such things can be handled with more grace than they are.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> Today there just is very little case for WMC over Tivo. That is just the bottom line. Today's reality.


Then you're complete out of touch with reality. WMC users number in the tens of thousands, if not more. Granted, that's a relatively small number in the grand scheme of things, but they're out there and we're here to stay. 

I have a friend that is about the furthest thing from being a computer geek or hobbyist as you can get. He uses WMC with a cablecard tuner on a regular basis. What you fail to realize is that many people are becoming cord cutters and looking for any way they can to sever ties with TV providers or minimize their costs as much as possible. HTPCs are an attractive solution for many of these folks. Anyone using Windows 7 already has most of what they need to turn their PC into a full-fledged DVR. Problem is, Microsoft did such a piss-poor job of promoting WMC that most people don't even know what it's for or how to use it. Tivo is also a viable option, but tends to be somewhat limited with regards to the types of capabilities cord cutters are looking for.

What I find amusing is the bit that I quoted above from your last post. I just read an article the other day that listed buzzwords that should never be used in a job interview as they tend to lessen your credibility. Your post contains quite a few of them with a couple of them used in the quoted portion alone. I had to chuckle because it just puts things into a much larger perspective for me.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> What I find amusing is the bit that I quoted above from your last post. I just read an article the other day that listed buzzwords that should never be used in a job interview as they tend to lessen your credibility. Your post contains quite a few of them with a couple of them used in the quoted portion alone. I had to chuckle because it just puts things into a much larger perspective for me.


He makes valid points and you insult him/her?? You have to realize have much acrimony you personally are causing in this thread.

You've been contradicting yourself throughout this thread just along the lines that you are accused of here. You've claimed that it's fine for non-hobbyists, and that once you got it set up, you personally didn't have to do any work to maintain it. You then have mentioned in passing in different threads half a dozen things that you had to do to keep it working.

Make up your mind - either defend it only for hobbyists, or say it's for everybody. You can't make a case it's for everybody (as you did yet again in the post above), and then when people object to your claims, say that you are only recommending it for hobbyists.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> I have a friend that is about the furthest thing from being a computer geek or hobbyist as you can get. He uses WMC with a cablecard tuner on a regular basis. What you fail to realize is that many people are becoming cord cutters and looking for any way they can to sever ties with TV providers or minimize their costs as much as possible. HTPCs are an attractive solution for many of these folks.


How and why would cord cutters use a cable card ????


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> How and why would cord cutters use a cable card ????


There are different levels of cord cutting. The very definition of cord cutting is finding ways to receive program material while keeping costs to a minimum. The most extreme is to cut yourself off from a provider and just go with OTA or internet sources. The most basic level is to rid yourself of the extra expense of renting boxes from the cable company. Renting a single cablecard to operate multiple tuners is a cord cutting solution at the basic level.



CrispyCritter said:


> He makes valid points and you insult him/her?? You have to realize have much acrimony you personally are causing in this thread.
> 
> You've been contradicting yourself throughout this thread just along the lines that you are accused of here. You've claimed that it's fine for non-hobbyists, and that once you got it set up, you personally didn't have to do any work to maintain it. You then have mentioned in passing in different threads half a dozen things that you had to do to keep it working.
> 
> Make up your mind - either defend it only for hobbyists, or say it's for everybody. You can't make a case it's for everybody (as you did yet again in the post above), and then when people object to your claims, say that you are only recommending it for hobbyists.


It wasn't meant as an insult but rather an amusing observation. The validity of his random posts are a matter of opinion, which he is entitled to. I simply do not share the same viewpoint as him in several areas.

While it is true I had my share of issues with HTPCs, they generally occurred when I first started out and were mainly due to faulty hardware. My current HTPCs are essentially trouble-free and require virtually no maintenance to keep them running smoothly. About the only thing I do is run Windows Update every few weeks to install the latest security updates.

I have never claimed HTPCs were for everyone and have indicated they were mainly for hobbyists numerous times. However, that doesn't mean anyone with basic PC skills can't configure a Windows 7 PC with a TV tuner and use WMC as a DVR or media player. This is the target audience that Microsoft was aiming for, even if they fell way short of the mark. In that regard it can overlap into both markets quite easily. My opinion is that even if you're not a hobbyist and your interest is piqued by what a HTPC can do, give it a shot and see if you like it. You don't necessarily have to be a hobbyist to set up a HTPC, but it doesn't hurt if you intend to extend the capabilities beyond what WMC can offer. HTPCs are new territory for most people and you can find yourself in over your head pretty quickly if you don't know what you're getting into, which is why I mostly say it's for hobbyists. If you keep it simple then there's no reason it can't work for just about anyone. The only caveat being that it's on a PC platform and can suffer from the same problems as any other PC.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> There are different levels of cord cutting. The very definition of cord cutting is finding ways to receive program material while keeping costs to a minimum. The most extreme is to cut yourself off from a provider and just go with OTA or internet sources. The most basic level is to rid yourself of the extra expense of renting boxes from the cable company. Renting a single cablecard to operate multiple tuners is a cord cutting solution at the basic level.


You don't need a WMC for that, a single 4 or 6 tuner TiVo will do the same thing. Put some Minis with that and you would have great whole house system.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> You don't need a WMC for that, a single 4 or 6 tuner TiVo will do the same thing. Put some Minis with that and you would have great whole house system.


That's true, but anyone that's looking to cut costs are more likely to already own a PC. I've seen numerous threads in HTPC forums where adding a few tuners would be preferable and less expensive than buying all new Tivos and Minis. Clearly, these folks are in a small minority. True cord cutters would want to stick with OTA and whatever they can cull from the internet rather than pay a provider for programming.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Then you're complete out of touch with reality. WMC users number in the tens of thousands, if not more. Granted, that's a relatively small number in the grand scheme of things, but they're out there and we're here to stay.
> 
> I have a friend that is about the furthest thing from being a computer geek or hobbyist as you can get. He uses WMC with a cablecard tuner on a regular basis. What you fail to realize is that many people are becoming cord cutters and looking for any way they can to sever ties with TV providers or minimize their costs as much as possible. HTPCs are an attractive solution for many of these folks. Anyone using Windows 7 already has most of what they need to turn their PC into a full-fledged DVR. Problem is, Microsoft did such a piss-poor job of promoting WMC that most people don't even know what it's for or how to use it. Tivo is also a viable option, but tends to be somewhat limited with regards to the types of capabilities cord cutters are looking for.
> 
> What I find amusing is the bit that I quoted above from your last post. I just read an article the other day that listed buzzwords that should never be used in a job interview as they tend to lessen your credibility. Your post contains quite a few of them with a couple of them used in the quoted portion alone. I had to chuckle because it just puts things into a much larger perspective for me.


So you read all about lessening credibility and that's what you posted? 

You insult me. You don't addresss my point. And you create a bunch of strawmen. 

You can like and enjoy WMC without it being the way to go today. I do. IT still works. IT does the job. But there is a better choice today, exceptions aside.

I'm going to take all your non-replies as tacit agreement.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> I'm going to take all your non-replies as tacit agreement.


Then you are sadly mistaken, sir.  There is nothing to respond to as your points are vague and clearly biased. I see no point in arguing against something that is primarily your personal opinion. That is a complete exercise in futility and not worth wasting bandwidth. You continue to claim you know what I think and what I want, yet you know me not at all. I do not seek to defend WMC but rather point out the fallacies in your assertions.

WMC is not the best DVR app out there, but it is adequate for what a lot of people need. Tivo is definitely the best standalone DVR platform available, but it is extremely limited when trying to be more than a DVR. Despite it's lack of sophisticated DVR features, WMC is a capable media center frontend that does what it is designed to do, even with the various bugs and flaws. You talk of the many advancements that Tivo has made, but most of what I've seen amounts to a lot of fluff with regards to the OS and various gadgets. The addition of the Tivo Mini extenders and up to six tuners is a huge step forward for Tivo, but HTPCs had that capability long before Tivo decided to play catch-up. Aside from trying to emulate features already available to HTPC users, Tivo has pretty much maxed out any functionality they could add to a DVR platform.

The most glaring differences between Tivo and HTPCs are quite simple. Tivo is a fixed platform. It is what it is, period, and there is nothing you can do to change that except buy the next generation Tivo and hope that whatever features you want may have been incorporated. HTPCs are expandable and can be modified to suit your tastes and needs without any complicated hacks. If you don't like WMC, you have numerous other choices, depending on what sort of media center platform you wish to configure.

Deciding which platform to choose all boils down to comparing the features that are most important to you. You make a list and put the features you want in the pros column and the lack thereof in the cons. Whichever one suits your needs will present itself without the need for endless rhetoric from us.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> You can like and enjoy WMC without it being the way to go today. I do. IT still works. IT does the job. But there is a better choice today, exceptions aside.


This is entirely your opinion, as pointed out here there are many cases where WMC is still superior. You are trying to post this as fact when it is simply not true. Each option has its own strengths and weaknesses.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> This is entirely your opinion, as pointed out here there are many cases where WMC is still superior. You are trying to post this as fact when it is simply not true. Each option has its own strengths and weaknesses.


All I'm doing is stating facts. Most people don't want hobbies when they want a DVR. Most aren't into tinkering with computers . And all the major advantages that WMC had against Tivo are wiped out compared to a few years ago.

Thus Tivo is the way to go.

And don't get me wrong. WMC does the job. I use it everyday. IT is my DVR. But I mean come on the argument for WMC today is very weak sauce because of the facts above.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

No, you're still simply stating your opinion as if it was a fact, same as Bigg loves to do.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Then you are sadly mistaken, sir.  There is nothing to respond to as your points are vague and clearly biased. I see no point in arguing against something that is primarily your personal opinion. That is a complete exercise in futility and not worth wasting bandwidth. You continue to claim you know what I think and what I want, yet you know me not at all. I do not seek to defend WMC but rather point out the fallacies in your assertions.


If you didn't agree with me you would have responded to my major points. But in all your posts you never did. Nothing vague about these points. I've stated them many times. Go back and read them if you need to.



mr.unnatural said:


> WMC is not the best DVR app out there, but it is adequate for what a lot of people need. Tivo is definitely the best standalone DVR platform available, but it is extremely limited when trying to be more than a DVR. Despite it's lack of sophisticated DVR features, WMC is a capable media center frontend that does what it is designed to do, even with the various bugs and flaws. You talk of the many advancements that Tivo has made, but most of what I've seen amounts to a lot of fluff with regards to the OS and various gadgets.


Vague.



mr.unnatural said:


> The addition of the Tivo Mini extenders and up to six tuners is a huge step forward for Tivo, but HTPCs had that capability long before Tivo decided to play catch-up.


I've said this many times. These are 2 of my very specific reasons for Tivo being the way to go today. These specifics are what you are calling vague above.

Also let me add that arguably Tivo is ahead in the extender game now. Besides price, who wouldn't want a Mini over a 360 or Echo as an extender?



mr.unnatural said:


> Aside from trying to emulate features already available to HTPC users, Tivo has pretty much maxed out any functionality they could add to a DVR platform.


Vague.



mr.unnatural said:


> The most glaring differences between Tivo and HTPCs are quite simple. Tivo is a fixed platform. It is what it is, period, and there is nothing you can do to change that except buy the next generation Tivo and hope that whatever features you want may have been incorporated. HTPCs are expandable and can be modified to suit your tastes and needs without any complicated hacks. If you don't like WMC, you have numerous other choices, depending on what sort of media center platform you wish to configure.


Plug and play vs hobby is a big difference. I mean just that alone will make a Tivo the choice to go to for a majority of people compared to WMC.

And you treat expandability and configuration as if its an off the shelf, plug and play feature. It is closer to performing complicated hacks for most people. This also says nothing about said quality compared to an off the shelf product like a Tivo.



mr.unnatural said:


> Deciding which platform to choose all boils down to comparing the features that are most important to you. You make a list and put the features you want in the pros column and the lack thereof in the cons. Whichever one suits your needs will present itself without the need for endless rhetoric from us.


just like you compare building your own couch to buying one at Crate and Barrel right?

And speak for yourself about the endless rhetoric.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> No, you're still simply stating your opinion as if it was a fact, same as Bigg loves to do.


Well its only opinion in the sense that ultimately you can do whatever you want and think whatever you want and anything posted should always be considered opinion. No one has had their credentials checked and we're all strangers for the most part so ...its just a guy at the bar going off about something.

But any reasonable person would reach the same conclusion as I have because I'm not even close to splitting hairs here. Plus I'm a WMC user. I have no skin in the Tivo game.

I never said WMC wasn't good for anyone. People that want computer-related hobbies are good candidates for WMC. But lets not pretend this is but a fraction of a percent of people out there that want a DVR.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Seriously? You're still poking this dead horse? Give it a rest, willya? This thread should have died months ago except for the fact that you revisit it once in a great while just to crap on it yet again.

Let it die in peace. Anyone that was listening left a long time ago.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Seriously? You're still poking this dead horse? Give it a rest, willya? This thread should have died months ago except for the fact that you revisit it once in a great while just to crap on it yet again.
> 
> Let it die in peace. Anyone that was listening left a long time ago.


I just read your latest 4 paragraphs. If you want it to die then don't post. I will have nothing to read and reply to.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

No problem. You've just been promoted to my ignore list along with Bigg.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Your ignore list is anyone who disagrees with your erroneous view of the state of WMC.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> Your ignore list is anyone who disagrees with your erroneous view of the state of WMC.


Yup. Pretty much. On TiVo forum, no less.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Nope. My ignore list consists of anyone that I find to be excessively annoying and confrontational. As to the state of WMC, we'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that (if that's even possible for you).


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I thought I was on your ignore list. That was short lived. 

Confrontational and annoying meaning I called you on your erroneous view of the state of WMC and your flip flopping between it being a hobby in one breath and an off the shelf no problem plug and play product in the other while you sprinkled in insults every time with help from the article you read about how to impress during the job interview.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

You are on my ignore list. Unfortunately, I had temprarily removed Bigg so when he quoted your post it became visible. I just removed you temporarily as well just to see what additional misinformation you were posting. Nothing relevent, I see, so back on the ignore list you go.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

The world is flat believers liked ignore lists as well. I got you on that list.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> The world is flat believers liked ignore lists as well. I got you on that list.


Good one.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

I asked the mods to close this thread months ago. Still hoping for that.


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