# Series3 internal 1TB upgrade - which drive (11/30/2008)?



## mickrussom

For: TCD648250B 
Prupose: replace 250GB A-drive with 1TB A-drive, no external drives planned.

I don't care about noise as much as super-reliability. It could be hot and reliable, it could be loud and reliable, but I want to avoid bad sectors and failures. I plan to test drive with extreme tests for 2 weeks+ prior to implementation. I would also like drives that dont promote stutter and would rather put up with noise to keep things peppy. Reliability is still most important.

Choices:

*Western Digital RE3 WD1002FBYS 1TB*
Why: Fast, and designed for RAID/long MTBF
Why not: TLER. (Firmware designed to "fail fast" as part of a RAID container)

*Seagate SV35.3 ST31000340SV 1TB *
Why: seems perfect, designed for SDVRs.
Why not: Performance seems so bad that 2x recording, 1x playing might be an issue ?

*Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB *
Why: Fast.
Why not: suspicious non-quoting of Read/Write seek avg/max on wdc.com. Newegg reviews have a lot of 1-star complaints about failure.

*HITACHI Deskstar 7K1000 HDS721010KLA330 (0A35155) 1TB *
Why: Detune as a cinemastar
Why not: "IBM / Deathstar" rep - bad reps, lots of platters, more moving parts means faster time to failure.

*SAMSUNG Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ 1TB *
Why: Don't know yet. Asking you.
Why not: My experience with Samsung has been a constant trail of tears. Horrible performance, sub-par reliability (I usually lump them in with Maxtor and Fujitsu).

*HITACHI Ultrastar A7K1000 0A35772 1TB SATA 7200 RPM 32MB*
Why: Came as a suggestion, would anyone veto this drive ? Looks good. 
Why not: None so far besides past "deathstar" rep.

Does anyone here have this drive and would like to comment on it?

Seemingly a Brand New option:
WD10EADS 
*WD Caviar Green WD10EADS / 43201803*
Why: Tivo HD XL uses WD10EVVS HDD, seems to nod towards WD-GP.
Why not: Possible performance issues; variable RPM is the fastest way to failure in every mechanical design I have *ever* seen. Constant RPM == much less failure.

Weaknees says for the 1350 HR SD:
1 TB Western Digital SATA Drive or 1 TB Hitachi SATA Drive.

I can't find a recent "internal Series3" whitelist/blacklist, a lot of the information is stale or more for the E-SATA/expansion issues.

- Mick


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## mr.unnatural

It looks like you've done a lot of in-depth research so you've pretty much already answered your own question. Even so, here's my 2 cents.

Seagates and WD's are the two most popular brands used in Tivos and are the two I've used for most of my Tivo upgrades. Samsungs seem to be a mixed bag as there is little info on them when used in this regard, although I hear getting one replaced under warranty can be a bit trying. Hitachi's seem to be the best deal around with the latest price slashes and rebates. I haven't used one in a Tivo yet but I did install one in my HTPC about a month ago for use as a DVR and so far it's working as well as the Seagate DB35 drive it replaced. Some of the latest Maxtors seem to be mainly rebadged Seagates ever since they were bought out a while back.

Seagates and WD drives seem to have the best track record for use in a Tivo, although I haven't seen any data regarding the standard WD vs. their "green" drives. The Hitachi's are getting more popular, probably because they're getting to be dirt cheap. I believe CompUSA/TigerDirect has the 1TB model for $80 after a $30 rebate with free shipping.


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## donnoh

I put an Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 in my Tivo HD a couple of months ago and have been happy with it so far. I went with drive partially because of price and partially because the guys at Weaknees have recommended it on here several times.
You also might want to look at the Hitachi Ultrastar A7K1000. They come with a 5 year warranty and advertise a 1.2 million hour MTBF.


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## zammo

mickrussom said:


> Seemingly a Brand New option:
> WD10EADS
> *WD Caviar Green WD10EADS / 43201803*
> Why: Tivo HD XL uses WD10EVVS HDD, seems to nod towards WD-GP.
> Why not: Possible performance issues; variable RPM is the fastest way to failure in every mechanical design I have *ever* seen. Constant RPM == much less failure.


I'm interested in this drive too, for both a series 3 and a windows home server box: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/hdd-terabyte-1tb,2077-6.html

Tom's hardware likes the drive a lot too. Currently it's about $20 more than the WD10EACS which may or may not work with the series 3. I want to hear about experiences with this drive and the series 3... Hopefully we'll get some info soon...


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## jlib

mickrussom said:


> Why: Fast...


Right from the start you are on the wrong path. You want slow, quiet, and cool. The Tivo is such an undemanding application that even with two HD streams being recorded and another being viewed the drive is sitting idle the majority of the time. Just make it easy on yourself. Others have already done all the head banging for you. For the S3 just get the WD10EVCS. Very affordable right now.

Wherever you are getting the "variable speed" notions from put them aside, no such thing. Probably came from unfortunately worded WD marketing literature at the beginning of the Green Power line release. Plus, why you are holding Hitachi to blame for a particular drive series from a decade ago from its predecessor?


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## mickrussom

jlib said:


> Right from the start you are on the wrong path. You want slow, quiet, and cool. The Tivo is such an undemanding application that even with two HD streams being recorded and another being viewed the drive is sitting idle the majority of the time. Just make it easy on yourself. Others have already done all the head banging for you. For the S3 just get the WD10EVCS. Very affordable right now.
> 
> Wherever you are getting the "variable speed" notions from put them aside, no such thing. Probably came from unfortunately worded WD marketing literature at the beginning of the Green Power line release. Plus, why you are holding Hitachi to blame for a particular drive series from a decade ago from its predecessor?


#1 - I want something that works. I want something reliable. I dont want slow, and a lot of hard drives are specified to work at up to 75C case-temperature, so if it has to be "cool", its quite possible it needs to be cool because its not a very good hard drive. I certainly didn't want quiet.

#2 - I consider WD10EVCS to be apparently deprecated by a drive with a double-sized 32MB buffer, WD10EADS, Does WD10EADS work, and does it suffer from soft reboot issues? If I had to pick between WD10EVCS and WD10EADS, I'd rather have the latter.

#3 - If others have done head-banging, I'd like to hear what worked and what didn't, not cling to a minimalist white list.

#4 - IntelliPower does vary RPM:
http://support.wdc.com/product/download.asp?groupid=610&lang=en

Specifications Capacity Interface RPM Avg. Seek Buffer Warranty Jumper Settings
WD10EVCS 1 TB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
WD7500AVCS 750 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
WD5000AVCS 500 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
WD5000AVVS 500 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 8 MB more info more info



http://support.wdc.com/product/download.asp?groupid=608&lang=en


Specifications Capacity Interface RPM Avg. Seek Buffer Warranty Jumper Settings
WD10EACS 1 TB (1000 GB) SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
WD7500AACS 750 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
WD5000AACS 500 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
WD5000AAVS 500 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info

http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2513

"Rotational Speed 5400-7200 RPM"

http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3161&p=2

"5400-7200 RPM (variable)"
"The Western Digital drive's IntelliPower algorithm, which varies the rotational speed between 5400RPM and 7200RPM, dictates the Western Digital's rotational speed."

http://www.amazon.com/Internal-Western-Digital-IntelliPower-ATA-300/dp/B00186YPBA

"INTELLIPOWER (5400-7200RPM SPINDLE SPEED)"

#5 - I have had to deal with innumerable friends who lost data to Hitachi and the GXP series long ago. Just like Lenovo, when you sell the know how to Japan or China, it doesn't change history, just the company changes hands. I've also had a near 100% failure rate with Hitachi 15K SAS drives (which I discovered early on and prevented high exposure to). I can photograph the Hitachi bone pile if you would like evidence.

Anyways, I'm looking for positive experiences and successes with modern hard drives that have been successfully used in upgrading the internal Series 3 (Original, not HD/HD XL) disk to 1TB.

The recommendation you gave may end up being the route I'll end up going, but it seems the SV35.3 seems a bit more rugged, especially given that per Seagate it is:

http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/servers/sv35_series/sv35.3/

# Enterprise-class reliability for 24x7 video surveillance applications, with >1 million hours MTBF and <1 percent AFR
# Improved data transfer rates (read/write speeds) enabling higher-performance video recording
# ATA-7 streaming commands optimize video streaming performance and integrity.
# Reduced power consumption and heat generation allow surveillance systems to run cooler and last longer.
# Capable of operating under drive case temperatures up to 75˚C
# Enhanced caching capabilityup to 32 MBprovides superior video recording quality.
# Backed by the industry-leading Seagate 5-year limited warranty

Seems like a good disk to consider, doesn't it?

We should reject the 'motherhood statements' and have a place to under successfully used HDDs that pass a few tests rather than infrequently updated list that everyone refers to.


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## nigebj

mickrussom said:


> #3 - If others have done head-banging, I'd like to hear what worked and what didn't, not cling to a minimalist white list.


Then have the courtesy to use search in these forums then, and read the hours of work many of us have already done - don't expect us to do the heavy lifting for you. The answers to your questions are all there to be found.


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## mickrussom

nigebj said:


> Then have the courtesy to use search in these forums then, and read the hours of work many of us have already done - don't expect us to do the heavy lifting for you. The answers to your questions are all there to be found.


Ok - sure. I searched for the drives I first asked about, I didn't find anything in the forums. I did PM a few people about a few of the drives and got some answers. The answers to some/most of the drives above are not to be found in these forums.


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## nigebj

mickrussom said:


> The answers to some/most of the drives above are not to be found in these forums.


True the answers to some of the above are not there, but if the question was which drive is the best to use - by the estimation of this community, then the answers (or at least opinions) are here.

There are a couple of stand-outs (the WD ECVS being the obvious one) you have not listed for reasons you consider valid. But that's not really point. Your list seems to be your predetermined choice - I read "Which drive" as being an open request for suggestions rather than a "Which from my list" question - and as you say some of these drives are not covered as 'the community' has not seen them as likely candidates for Tivo upgrades.

One point on going for an esoteric choice, which it seems you might well do. We have many hours here into understanding why some drives just don't work as you'd expect despite their apparently appropriate spec. (the EACS soft boot issues for example). So by pathfinding you are certainly exposing yourself to more probability of anomalies.

Anyway - good luck with the upgrade, let us know what you go with, and how it works out for you.


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## jlib

mickrussom said:


> #1 - I want something that works. I want something reliable. I don't want slow, and a lot of hard drives are specified to work at up to 75C case-temperature, so if it has to be "cool", its quite possible it needs to be cool because its not a very good hard drive. I certainly didn't want quiet.


You are obviously an intelligent and careful person. But some of your knowledge is getting in the way. There is value in choosing the right tool for the job. You are letting your knowledge of drive specifications that would be applicable to desktop computer or server use blind you to the simplest tool for the job. You don't need a hard drive that operates at 75C because it will never get that hot in a TiVo. You don't need 7200 RPM speed because it is over kill, akin to putting premium in a Honda Civic thinking it will improve performance. Your statement about not wanting quiet in a drive that is constantly on and recording and most likely in earshot while TV viewing also doesn't make sense to me. That should be your _primary_ criterion. It is the major complaint from those who inadvertently chose a loud drive.



> #2 - I consider WD10EVCS to be apparently deprecated by a drive with a double-sized 32MB buffer, WD10EADS, Does WD10EADS work, and does it suffer from soft reboot issues? If I had to pick between WD10EVCS and WD10EADS, I'd rather have the latter.


Again, you are putting premium in the Civic. More cache is of no value to a low demand application like the TiVo. TiVo even OEM-ed a WD drive for the new TiVo HD XL with _less_ cache (8MB). Why? Because the extra cache is a waste and if they can save a few dollars on each of the thousands of drives they order it adds up. I do not believe anyone has reported on the S3 with a WD10EADS yet. Few would be willing to pay more just for a warm fuzzy feeling. Fewer still would want to try it in an S3 since the exact same drive save the cache (the WD10EACS) has the odd soft reboot problem in the S3.



> #3 - If others have done head-banging, I'd like to hear what worked and what didn't, not cling to a minimalist white list.


Probably the best bet is to review the sticky thread Official eSATA Drive Expansion: FAQ + Discussion. Though the legacy title says eSATA it has actually evolved to equally cover internal upgrades (probably because of its sticky status). Section III-30 of the first post deals with with such. Nobody will expect you to read the whole thread but reading backwards from current will give you a pretty good sense of things as they now stand. Then you can search within the tread for particulars. There are occasional other treads also but they are usually regarding a sale somewhere on a sought after drive.

The whitelist /blacklist is really the only way to do it. Some brave soul tries a drive and reports back. Others either corroborate or dispute the findings. After many users have successfully tried a particular model with all the desirable feature then it becomes likely that others will also have success. You can't just go on specifications. For example, the new Samsung Spinpoint drive looks like it should be a winner. Many have reported initial success. Just as many others are now reporting reboot problems. So it may end up that it is not a recommended drive in the end but that comes from the feedback from users as a certain consensus forms.



> #4 - IntelliPower does vary RPM:
> http://support.wdc.com/product/download.asp?groupid=610&lang=en
> 
> Specifications Capacity Interface RPM Avg. Seek Buffer Warranty Jumper Settings
> WD10EVCS 1 TB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
> WD7500AVCS 750 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
> WD5000AVCS 500 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
> WD5000AVVS 500 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 8 MB more info more info
> 
> 
> 
> http://support.wdc.com/product/download.asp?groupid=608&lang=en
> 
> 
> Specifications Capacity Interface RPM Avg. Seek Buffer Warranty Jumper Settings
> WD10EACS 1 TB (1000 GB) SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
> WD7500AACS 750 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
> WD5000AACS 500 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
> WD5000AAVS 500 GB SATA II 5400-7200 8.9 ms 16 MB more info more info
> 
> http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2513
> 
> "Rotational Speed 5400-7200 RPM"
> 
> http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3161&p=2
> 
> "5400-7200 RPM (variable)"
> "The Western Digital drive's IntelliPower algorithm, which varies the rotational speed between 5400RPM and 7200RPM, dictates the Western Digital's rotational speed."
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Internal-Western-Digital-IntelliPower-ATA-300/dp/B00186YPBA
> 
> "INTELLIPOWER (5400-7200RPM SPINDLE SPEED)"


This is Western Digital's fault. They actually want people to be confused by all this. You have to read very carefully but the variability has nothing to do with the RPM of a drive at various times but rather with the optimum static RPM that applies to the various models across the Green Power line. Depending upon the characteristics of each model, the actual RPM specification (which remains unpublished) can range anywhere from 5400-7200. Many people compare on spec and would immediately dismiss a 5400 RPM drive as a selection for a modern PC. By intentionally obfuscating the RPM they hope to avoid dismissal by the spec shoppers.

That chart you post from WD showing the 5400-7200 RPM heading as applied to particular models rather than to the Intellipower concept in general is nothing short of deceptive on their part and you can certainly be excused for drawing the conclusion you did. Your other links (Amazon, Anandtech) are not credible sources since they are just parroting the specs, not analyzing them. A drive _could_ actually have a separate spindown speed for a pre-sleep stage, let's say, but the WD is not one and it certainly is not variable as most people understand that word. A lot of WD's initial marketing BS is still out there and as you know once it gets on a vendor's website it is pretty much there forever even if WD adjusts theirs.

Here is a more up to date description of Intellipower from WD.

Here are the guys who's review busted WD's prevarication.

This is all the more cheeky since there have been no WD Green Power drives I know of that tested out to anything other than 5400 RPM.



> #5 - I have had to deal with innumerable friends who lost data to Hitachi and the GXP series long ago. Just like Lenovo, when you sell the know how to Japan or China, it doesn't change history, just the company changes hands. I've also had a near 100% failure rate with Hitachi 15K SAS drives (which I discovered early on and prevented high exposure to). I can photograph the Hitachi bone pile if you would like evidence.
> 
> Anyways, I'm looking for positive experiences and successes with modern hard drives that have been successfully used in upgrading the internal Series 3 (Original, not HD/HD XL) disk to 1TB.
> 
> The recommendation you gave may end up being the route I'll end up going, but it seems the SV35.3 seems a bit more rugged, especially given that per Seagate it is:
> 
> http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/servers/sv35_series/sv35.3/
> 
> # Enterprise-class reliability for 24x7 video surveillance applications, with >1 million hours MTBF and <1 percent AFR
> # Improved data transfer rates (read/write speeds) enabling higher-performance video recording
> # ATA-7 streaming commands optimize video streaming performance and integrity.
> # Reduced power consumption and heat generation allow surveillance systems to run cooler and last longer.
> # Capable of operating under drive case temperatures up to 75˚C
> # Enhanced caching capability-up to 32 MB-provides superior video recording quality.
> # Backed by the industry-leading Seagate 5-year limited warranty
> 
> Seems like a good disk to consider, doesn't it?
> 
> We should reject the 'motherhood statements' and have a place to under successfully used HDDs that pass a few tests rather than infrequently updated list that everyone refers to.


The FAQ is not perfect but the subsequent discussion allows for an evolving understanding of upgrading the TiVo hard drive, which seems to be what you are actually looking for.

The Seagate SV35.3 would probably be a good drive for a video surveillance server. The critical spec we need is the decibels at head seek. Since it is designed for the server room and not the living room Seagate saw fit not to publish those specs. Since the published idle acoustics have a listed max of 29 dB one can assume the seek acoustics would be somewhat higher than that. The WD10EVCS has seek acoustics speced at 25dB for comparison. Differences of 3dB and more are considered noticeable.

There is some danger in comparing different manufacturer's acoustic specs since there is no standardized method for making the measurements but there is no particular reason for the Seagate to be quiet given its intended application. It does have a good warranty but that doesn't mean it is 2 years more durable. It simply has an enterprise class warranty along, with enterprise class price. There is no particular reason it shouldn't work as far as I can see but the acoustic management tools upgraders use to adjust AAM loudness settings will not work with that drive because of its Seagate heritage. Additionally, ATA-7 streaming command set is not used by the current TiVos (including the new HD XL) so not a benefit at all.

As far as your other drives, here is my off the cuff rundown:

Western Digital RE3 WD1002FBYS 1TB
Unknown compatibility with the TiVo. Unneeded performance. Undesirable noise and cost. The more desirable WD RE2-GP suffers the same soft reboot problem on the S3 as the WD10EACS.​
Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB
Unknown compatibility with the TiVo. Unneeded performance. Undesirable noise and cost.​
HITACHI Deskstar 7K1000 HDS721010KLA330 (0A35155) 1TB
The original. A reliable TiVo compatible drive. Needs to be detuned with Hitachi Feature Tool as you mentioned. Worth looking at if at very good price point. ​
SAMSUNG Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ 1TB
Quiet and inexpensive but mixed reviews regarding full compatibility (hard reboot problem). Probably better to avoid until the nature and extent of the problem is better understood.​
HITACHI Ultrastar A7K1000 0A35772 1TB SATA 7200 RPM 32MB
Unknown compatibility with the TiVo. Unneeded performance. Undesirable noise and cost. There was some thought that it might not be detunable (specs were vague on the subject).​
WD Caviar Green WD10EADS 
A WD10EACS with twice as much uneeded cache. Probably has the same benefits and limitations as the WD10EACS.​
For an S3, my original WD10EVCS recommendation still holds.


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## mickrussom

jlib said:


> ...


Thanks, this was a very interesting read .

Someone else here via PM said WD1001FALS without the soft reboot issue. The rest of the issue was very informative, and it was interesting to read that SR found that the WD GP drives are sub-6000 RPM constant RPM. That really goes a long way in terms of making the drive seem more reliable to me.

I would probably just stick with "the right drive" at this point (WD10EVCS), or possibly consider trying the SV35 caveat emptor and report the findings to the group. (I'll always have a backup drive/image).

Thanks again for taking the time to look at all of this.

- Mick


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## Scaevola

Not to sound like a total lurker. But anyway the WD10EVCS... It recommended for only the original S3 or will it work in the HD's as well?

From my pursing S3 can be fickle at times but its very generious when it comes to esata installations. 

Would anyone care to confirm with regard to the HDs? 

I know the S3 uses slightly different component(or maybe I am mis reading all these threads) [has better performance through put compared to the HDS).


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## nigebj

Scaevola said:


> But anyway the WD10EVCS... It recommended for only the original S3 or will it work in the HD's as well?


WD10EVCS is good for any use, internal or external for both S3 and TivoHD. I upgraded my internal TivoHD drive with it, no problems - quiet, fast, no reboot issues.


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## mr.unnatural

+1 for jlib's informative post. Most, if not all, of today's drives are more than qualified to be used in a Tivo, with but few exceptions. Most people don;t realize that the original Quantum drives that Tivo used in the dual tuner DTivos were only 4500rpm drives with minimal cache and they were more than up to the task of recording two shows while playing back a third. 7200rpm speeds and lots of cache are simply overkill for use in a Tivo. If anything, a 5400rpm drive would be preferable because it would probably run cooler and quieter. If the drive you use has acoustic management available then by all means, use it. The modest hit in performance over noise level is worth it.


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## TomRaz

I upgraded my Tivo HD using the Hitachi Deskstar 1TB drive over 1 year ago and it has been working fine. 

When shopping for hard drives consider warranty periods since most drives fail later in their life. The Hitachi drive has a 3 year warranty. 

A friend of mine upgraded his Tivo HD using the Western Digital 1TB green drive and his has been working fine also. One thing that steered me away from the WD drive was the variable speed feature. 

Since a Tivo records live TV 24X7 I don't see a benefit in have a drive with variable speed since it will need to be recording all the time.

I would not hesitate to purchase another Hitachi Deskstar drive.


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## frige

I just upgraded mine with the WD1001FALS.
It doesn't sound any louder to me.

The drive is reported as WD1001FALS-0037B in Win MFS.
Got it at BestBuy for $189. It's the caviar black WD10000LSRTL.
-frige


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## jlib

Frige, can you please report your TiVo model so that we have clarity on WD1001FALS compatibility since yours is one of the first. Yes, what matters is if you can hear the seeks and if you can't then no problem. But WD's own specs show the Black Label series performance drives are _significantly_ objectively louder than their Green Power series. Another user also mentions the acoustics as unacceptable.


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## URL8

jlib said:


> SAMSUNG Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ 1TB
> Quiet and inexpensive but mixed reviews regarding full compatibility (hard reboot problem). Probably better to avoid until the nature and extent of the problem is better understood.​


Long time Tivo user, finally had time to upgrade my S3 w/ lifetime with the Samsung 5400 RPM HD103UJ 1TB drive. Works great, and is generally a lot quieter than the original 250GB drive. I've had no problems over the last three weeks with reboots, power cycles, etc.

Upgraded using a SATA-USB connector connected to a Macbook and upgraded via WinMFS on VMWare Fusion. I did *not* use the MFS Supersize option.

The only thing I wasn't able to do was run the Samsung's AAM program and have it recognize the drive when it was attached to the SATA-USB connector. Has anyone had luck with this?


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## ciper

Just wanted to note that Seagate drives carry a *five year* warranty and they even pay return shipping on the replacement drive.


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## TomRaz

I just upgraded my other 2 Tivo HD units with 1TB Western Digital drives using model WD10EVCS. These drives run cooler than the stock drive and are very quit. 

They have a 3 year warranty. Also they are designed for DVR's


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## lafos

I just replaced the drive on my S3 with the WD10EVCS, based on the reviews and comments in the forums. Nice & quiet. We'll see how it behaves. I'm in the habit of replacing TiVo drives every two-three years whether they need it or not. 

I had Seagate drives in my Toshiba SD-H400 TiVo. Darn thing was loud from seek noises. The Toshi fan is loud, too, but the drive was audible from 10 feet away. I couldn't set acoustic management on it, so it went away in favor of a WD drive, which has acoustic management. Speed is not an issue in a TiVo, but noise is.


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## jlib

URL8 said:


> ...The only thing I wasn't able to do was run the Samsung's AAM program and have it recognize the drive when it was attached to the SATA-USB connector. Has anyone had luck with this?


Those utilities are usually DOS based boot disks so the quick answer is no (there were some latter-day attempts to add USB to DOS operating systems but I do not know if you would get the needed direct access). One user claimed the Linux live boot disks recognize SATA-USB adapters via the hdparm command but I have never tried it.


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## mickrussom

http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.j...cale=en-US&reqPage=Model&modelReqTab=Features

Would be nice to hear if anyone used this is a Series 3, HD or HDXL...

I chose the EVCS drive for my Series3 and am doing surface scanning on the drive to test for defects now, should be a good drive - however, I wish I had gotten this drive instead.

Pipeline HD Pro Hard Drives

ST31000533CS

The Seagate Pipeline HD Pro hard drive lets manufacturers optimize drive performance for demanding DVR and media center environments to meet the needs of the high-definition marketplace.

Key Features and Benefits

* High capacities starting at 1 TB enable premium television services, such as video on demand, high-definition DVRs and home media centers.
* High-performance 7200-RPM Pipeline HD Pro drives store, retrieve and play back up to 12 simultaneous streams of HD content with ease.
* 1-TB capacity stores up to 200 hours of high-definition TV or up to 1000 hours of standard-definition TV.
* Low-current spin-up for ease of integration and power supply design
* Capable of operating at drive case temperatures up to 75°C
* Designed and tested for always-on applications, 24x7, 8760
* Proven Seagate reliabilitydesigned for worry-free DVR operation with segment-leading 0.62% AFR
* Available Seagate Secure technology improves content security as part of a system digital rights management strategy.
* Seagate SoftSonic motor and optimized seek profiles enable years of quiet, worry-free operation.

Key Applications

* DVR and media center applications
 o Microsoft Windows Vista certified
* External storage
* Home theater PCs
* PTV
* Multimedia hard drive recorders
* Karaoke and audio jukeboxes

Specifications 1 TB
Model Number ST31000533CS
Interface SATA 3.0Gb/s
Cache 32 MBytes
Capacity 1 TB
Areal density (avg) 228 Gbits/inch2
Guaranteed Sectors 1,953,525,168
PHYSICAL 
Height (max) 26.1 mm (1.028 inches)
Width (max) 101.60 mm (4.000 inches)
Length (max) 146.99 mm (5.787 inches)
Weight (typical) 630 grams (1.389 pounds)
PERFORMANCE 
Average latency 4.16 msec
Random read seek time <14.0 msec
Random write seek time <15.0 msec
RELIABILITY 
Annual Failure Rate 0.62%
Unrecoverable read errors 1 in 10^14
POWER 
Average idle current 6.938 watts
Standby power 0.99 watts
Sleep power 0.997 watts
Maximum start current, DC 2.0 amps
ENVIRONMENT 
Ambient Temperature 
Nonoperating -40 to 70 degrees C
Maximum nonoperating temperature change 30 degrees C per hour
Minimum operating case temperature 0 degrees C
Maximum operating case temperature 69 degrees C
Maximum operating case temperature gradient 20 degrees C per hour
Relative Humidity 
Operating 5 to 90
Nonoperating 5 to 95
Maximum allowable humidity change 30 per hour
Altitude 
Operating altitude (min) -60.96 meters (-200 feet)
Operating altitude (max) 3,048 meters (10,000 feet)
Nonoperating altitude (min) -60.96 meters (-200 feet)
Nonoperating altitude (max) 12,192 meters (40,000 feet)
Shock 
Operating Shock (max) 70 Gs at 2 msec
Nonoperating Shock (max) 300 Gs at 2 msec
Vibration 
Operating vibration 0.25 Gs at2-22 Hz
Operating vibration 0.50 Gs at 22-350 Hz
Operating vibration 0.25 Gs at 350-500 Hz
Nonoperating vibration 2.0 Gs at 5-22 Hz
Nonoperating vibration 5.0 Gs at 22-350 Hz
Nonoperating vibration 2.0 Gs at 350-500 Hz
ACOUSTICS 
Acoustics (Idle Volume) 2.9 bels
Acoustics (Seek Volume) 3.1 bels


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## ciper

mickrussom : While the extra speed is not needed I really like that they reduced the spin up draw and rated the drive for 24x7! What's the warranty on that drive?


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## jamesweber

Just used the Western Digital 10EVCS 1 TB. I would have to reccomend it. Works great and very quiet.

Buy.com sells it for $109


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## jlib

mickrussom said:


> ...I chose the EVCS drive for my Series3 and am doing surface scanning on the drive to test for defects now, should be a good drive - however, I wish I had gotten this drive instead.
> 
> Pipeline HD Pro Hard Drives
> 
> ST31000533CS
> ...


I can't think of a single reason why the Seagate ST31000533CS would be a better drive in a TiVo and I can think of a few reasons it is inferior. The main shortcomings are a non-adjustable and decidedly loud default head seek acoustics setting, higher power consumption, and hotter normal operating temperature. Seagate has even abandoned their 5 year warranty on non-enterprise bare drives drives so there literally is no reason the Seagate is better especially since it is not as readily available as the WD10EVCS and therefore more expensive.


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## donnoh

Here's my take on this entire thread. There is nothing on my Tivo that I can't live without. I have an Hitachi 1 TB drive and for the last 4 months or so it has worked fine. As long as it works ok for the next year I am sure that it's going to come out and the next best thing is going to replace it.
So if it dies I'll buy the most popular drive at the time to replace it, if it works without a problem I'll still buy the best drive at the time to replace it.
Most people that replace their own hard drives aren't going to leave them in for very long.


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## ciper

donnoh : You say that but I would be willing to put money down that you won't feel the same way later. Usually the drive fails a slow painful death and at first you can't figure out whats going on. It starts with random pixelation and sluggishness and eventually gets to the point that it might reboot at random times. 

Even if you replace the drive and don't care about the shows on it all your thumb ratings and seasons passes will be lost. It REALLY sucks when you try to recreate the season pass and find out the show is not currently on the air,,, guess what TiVo can only see whats on in the next 28 days. As you try to get these recordings back your thumb database now thinks you are a gay mexican who likes cartoons. 

All the while your family is visiting from out of town and you have to drive down to the local computer retailer to buy an overpriced drive just so you can get the system up and running again.

Otherwise you watch TV using the tuner and are forced to watch infomercials and Maury Povich because you no longer know what time/day/channel any of your shows are on. You get twitches in your hand as you try to fast forward through commercials.

One day I will tell you, donnoh, "I told you so" then point and laugh.


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## donnoh

I still have my original drive which has all of the season passes and cable card setups on it so worst case scenario I lose my stored shows, most of which have been sucked up to my PC. So some day you may point and laugh at me but in the meantime I'll be on the lookout for Tivo to make a 1TB+ drive work and I'll upgrade long before my current drive fails.
What makes you seem so sure that my Hitachi drive will fail anyways before I replace it?
What is your hard drive of choice and how do know yours won't fail during the super bowl?


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## mickrussom

jlib said:


> I can't think of a single reason why the Seagate ST31000533CS would be a better drive in a TiVo


I remember using Seagate drives in 8088/8086 systems many decades ago. In fact, I have a 10MB ST-412 drive here as proof they literally invented this stuff in a modern sense.

I have run through the gamut of Seagate SCSI and SAS drives, along with other manufacturers. I have a WD Raptor as a main hard drive right now, so I am certainly not anti-WD, and have in the past run Micropolis, Conner, WD, IBM and the host of other in enterprise application and have always found that in quantity, Seagate has a relative low failure rate over time.

I think that Seagate has engineering and know how over time that makes any of the products they make instantly interesting and relevant, and would place the burden of proof on those who doubt them. I know there are firmware issues with the 1.5TB and the consumer drives in the 7200.10/.11 range have had issues, but lets not put WD on a pedestal, as I remember them from the 6GB days, as well as IBM's GXP/"deathstar" days.

In the SAS/SCSI realm, Seagate drives are without equal.

I would also consider this: Toyota has a 3 year/36,000 mile warranty. Chrysler has a 7 year/70,000 mile, and Hyundai a 10 year 100,000 mile. We all know that you can trivially put 200K miles on a Toyota.

I have a working ST-412 that cements this analogy - and many SCSI workhorses well outside of warranty that prove that this is just another marketing term.

I'm sure the EVCS I went with will be fine, especially after 100+ write/read-verify cycles on every sector, plus a disk exerciser routine.

I would also have liked to have had the pipeline drive for this project, as I am certain it would be better for this application, and speed is a good thing. (The more time one spends grinding through a task is less time spent idle, which is probably the most likely time for things to go wrong, that is, under duress).


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## donnoh

As having worked in an American manufacturing company for the past 26 years the one thing I have learned is that American run companies are in it for the short term.

Seagate and Western Digital are doomed, the management can't see 4" in front or their face. Look at Seagates problems already, WD isn't far behind.

Wait and see, Hitachi and Samsung will dominate the market in a few years.


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## mickrussom

donnoh said:


> As having worked in an American manufacturing company for the past 26 years the one thing I have learned is that American run companies are in it for the short term.
> 
> Seagate and Western Digital are doomed, the management can't see 4" in front or their face. Look at Seagates problems already, WD isn't far behind.
> 
> Wait and see, Hitachi and Samsung will dominate the market in a few years.


Yes, there is a serious self-decimating problem with US management, GAAP and SARBOX aside, that foundations of a lot of these companies was so good its taken decades of garbage management (like Fiorina) to destroy these places. They consume themselves, scuttle the ship for short term gains constantly to make a hugely corrupt "market" happy for a few years. It is true that Seagate will very likely see horrible days ahead, and WD may soon follow, but unless they all completely die, they should come back again at least for a few more cycles. Despite the best efforts of bad management, the US companies still do some innovation. Lets not short the USA just yet, but its not a completely insane position to take either.

I'd like to think Al Shugart's ghost can keep things going a little longer.


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## tivoupgrade

mickrussom said:


> *HITACHI Deskstar 7K1000 HDS721010KLA330 (0A35155) 1TB *
> Why: Detune as a cinemastar
> Why not: "IBM / Deathstar" rep - bad reps, lots of platters, more moving parts means faster time to failure.


Was just taking a look at this list; nice work.

One comment... we've been using these Deskstar drives for a year-and-a-half now, and I think we may have had one bad one, if that. I honestly can't remember. They've been great.

Lou


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## evlg

I bought a TiVo Series 3 just after they were released in Fall 2006. I of course almost immediately upgraded the drive with a 500GB Hitachi Deskstar. I have been pretty happy with that drive setup for the last 2.5 years.

However lately I am thinking about upgrading again to a 1TB WD Caviar Green drive. I could use more space, and those drives seem to be very quiet in tests.

One concern I have is overall drive throughput. Consider that the TiVo can record 2 HD streams at once and then playback a third. Do all of these drives provide enough real-world performance to meet this demand?


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## jlib

evlg said:


> One concern I have is overall drive throughput. Consider that the TiVo can record 2 HD streams at once and then playback a third. Do all of these drives provide enough real-world performance to meet this demand?


Although it is non-intuitive for most people, the TiVo actually is a very unchallenging application for a modern hard drive, even a 5400 RPM one. Even with your 3 stream scanario the drive is basically sitting idle most of the time waiting for something to do. It can read from and write to buffer way, way faster than the TiVo can process.


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## tivoupgrade

jlib said:


> Although it is non-intuitive for most people, the TiVo actually is a very unchallenging application for a modern hard drive, even a 5400 RPM one. Even with your 3 stream scanario the drive is basically sitting idle most of the time waiting for something to do. It can read from and write to buffer way, way faster than the TiVo can process.


Actually, its writing most of the time ("live TV"), not idle, but its true that the SATA / drive bandwidths available are very large relative to the demands of three video streams.

Processing the video in real-time is more compute-intensive than I/O intensive, but the custom hardware in the TiVo can handle that, since that is what its designed to do.

BTW, the corollary to this scenario is the notion that putting higher-performance drives in your unit will NOT make a difference, either...


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## evlg

I have noticed something on my Series 3 running 11.0 software. When I am watching some HD sports (Superbowl most recently exhibited this problem) the 1x FF doesn't work consistently. It seems this is is the case if the TiVo is recording another HD show on the other tuner. I wondered if it was possible I was exhausting the IO Bandwidth to write 2 streams and re-seek back into it for playback at high speed.


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## ciper

This is a known bug. It's a video stream problem and isn't related to the hard drive. There are numerous threads about it. Supposedly it is a bandwidth saving measure originating from the broadcaster.


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## jlib

tivoupgrade said:


> Actually, its writing most of the time ("live TV"), not idle, but its true that the SATA / drive bandwidths available are very large relative to the demands of three video streams.


Right. What I meant by idle is that the drive will empty the RAM buffer faster than the TiVo can fill it (and vice versa). And it is so much faster that the heads are neither writing nor reading for the majority of a given time interval. Of course if one looks at the drive activity light it will be flashing rapidly all the time.


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## ThreeSoFar

I'm trying to find the chart comparing the TiVo processor speeds, from Premiere down to the old S1s. Search not helping....anybody recall which thread it was in? Who posted it?

Found it! It was in the Sellout.woot thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8339522#post8339522


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## nooneuknow

mickrussom said:


> Does anyone here have this drive and would like to comment on it?
> 
> Seemingly a Brand New option:
> WD10EADS
> *WD Caviar Green WD10EADS / 43201803*
> Why: Tivo HD XL uses WD10EVVS HDD, seems to nod towards WD-GP.
> Why not: Possible performance issues; variable RPM is the fastest way to failure in every mechanical design I have *ever* seen. Constant RPM == much less failure.
> - Mick


I have used the WD20EADS drives in multiple TiVo HDs, as well as multiple Premieres, without a single problem. You can get more info under the upgrade threads here on how to set them up for problem-free operation.

I agree with your opinion on the RPM vs failure rate.
There should be no performance issues. If everything is working correctly, you may see a marked performance improvement vs the original drive.

Best of luck.


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