# Long time tivo user departing: horrific customer service experience



## EdwinOlson (Jun 30, 2000)

Hi Everyone,

Old timers here will remember me from Series 1 days. I am leaving TiVo, never to return, after experiencing the most unsatisfactory customer service in my life. I thought I'd tell you about it (briefly) and let you form your own opinion over whether I'm a pig-headed fool, or the victim of a company that was all too happy to see a customer (who, as a lifetime subscriber, was not a recurring source of revenue) go.

In short, my S3 began acting up, and several long calls to tech support ultimately led to the conclusion that my unit had failed and needed to be replaced. During this process, I was told that the replacement fee for my unit (since it was out of warranty) was $149, but that my lifetime service would be transferred over. After talking it over with my wife, we called back to begin the exchange process, at which point the customer service reps insisted that I would have to pay an additional $199 to transfer the lifetime service.

I now know, as many of you probably already know, that the $199 fee is "standard practice". It is an abomination of rationality, of course, that typing in an updated MAK should cost $199. But it reflects the underlying reality that TiVo is desperate to obtain a revenue stream from those of us who were early adopters and who opted to invest in a lifetime service for a product from a little-known company with an uncertain future.

I promised this would be brief, and so I'll simply say that several hours of calls with 2nd level tech support finally led to my case being forwarded to the mysterious "Advanced Customer Service" (ACS) department (more on that in a minute). I was told that my case would be reviewed and I would be contacted in several days time with the verdict.

Of course, the call from ACS never came. Today, I called to follow up: the verdict: TiVo doesn't need me as a customer... not without me coughing up $348 ($199+$149). According to both my notes and TiVo's, three different TiVo employees assured me that the $199 fee would be waived, but the highest levels of TiVo (ACS) have refused to honor it. I asked to speak to ACS, but the 2nd level tech support refused to provide me with any contact information: no telephone, no email, no snail mail address. I'm now stuck.

And so I'm leaving TiVo. There were many good things about TiVo, but it has become clear that they care much more about revenue streams (witness the ever increasing obtrusiveness of ads, not to mention my own experience) than a good customer experience. My plan is to build a MythTV box; I'll miss the polish of the TiVo interface and the sexy little box under my TV, but I won't miss the company that, once upon a time, used to evoke my enthusiasm.

Sadly,

Edwin


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I feel your pain, but the first thing I'd have done is replace the hard drive.
It's the most likely cause of your problem and a heck of a lot cheaper than dealing with TiVo.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

If it is not a hard drive you can still have it fix by the third parties like http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/stores/1/tivo-repair.cfm cheaper than to deal with TiVo.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Yeah, it does not seem fair. 

I think this was asked on another thread - If they will repair your box for $149, can't you have them fix your box and just go without until it returns? I do not have lifetime on my box and things like this have kept me from doing that (I've only been a user for 6 months, I'm not an addict I can quit anytime).

As suggested, it would seem a lot cheaper to just replace the internal drive yourself and keep your lifetime on the box you have now. This will deprive TiVo of any additional revenue from you and you should be up and running pretty quick. 

For half of what TiVo is charging you, you could have a 1 tb drive in your box. For what they are charging you, you could also add another 1 tb drive external to your box.

I would suggest not returning your box to TiVo, upgrading the internal drive to 1 tb and keeping your lifetime on your current box. 

Cheaper than going the Myth TV route and you get to keep getting service from TiVo w/o giving them any more money at all.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

Wow, another whiny former Series 1 owner. How totally out of character for this forum.


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## mec1991 (Nov 5, 2004)

TolloNodre said:


> Wow, another whiny former Series 1 owner. How totally out of character for this forum.


That was helpful.

Welcome to my ever growing ignore list.


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## pdonoghu (Mar 6, 2003)

TolloNodre said:


> Wow, another whiny former Series 1 owner. How totally out of character for this forum.


I suggest you reread the original post, he is talking about an S3.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

pdonoghu said:


> I suggest you reread the original post, he is talking about an S3.


Yes. Hence my use of the word 'former'...perhaps you should reread my post...?


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Lifetime Product service is for the life of your Tivo. I'm sure you are well aware of that. If your Tivo dies the day after the warranty expires, you have no claim to anything. I'm sure you are well aware of that. Whining about not getting any special treatment is just a foolish waste of time.

Take your ridiculous false sense of entitlement and go. You won't be missed. That, I guarantee for life.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

TolloNodre said:


> Wow, another whiny former Series 1 owner. How totally out of character for this forum.


It is out of character for this forum NOW then all kind of punks like you joined.
For the old members like me and Edwin this place was and still is a discussion forum about TiVo - good, bad or ugly.


> Lifetime Product service is for the life of your Tivo. I'm sure you are well aware of that. If your Tivo dies the day after the warranty expires, you have no claim to anything. I'm sure you are well aware of that. Whining about not getting any special treatment is just a foolish waste of time.
> 
> Take your ridiculous false sense of entitlement and go. You won't be missed. That, I guarantee for life.


Another punk with his opinion. What is your guarantee worth? For your info, lifetime sub for the last ten years until very recently was preserved when out of warranty TiVo was repaired or replaced by authorized dealer or TiVo themselves. TiVo changed it, but it doesn't make it right. For all of you Johnny come lately it may be acceptable, but not for the people who know better.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

samo said:


> Another punk with his opinion.


Nice name calling there.



> What is your guarantee worth?


Not much, but more than your opinion.



> For your info, lifetime sub for the last ten years until very recently was preserved when out of warranty TiVo was repaired or replaced by authorized dealer or TiVo themselves.


and yet, not a single one of those transactions was made out of an obligation on Tivo's part.



> TiVo changed it, but it doesn't make it right.


What's with the entitlement to more than you paid for?



> For all of you Johnny come lately it may be acceptable, but not for the people who know better.


Time to say good-bye to 1955 and enter the 21st century.


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## Karmavore (Nov 20, 2006)

I'm a former Series 1 owner, and at the risk of getting flamed, you johnny-come-latelies really don't know how good it used to be. 

A 30-hour SD dial-up TiVo may sound totally craptastic to you now, but I assure you, the step-up from VCR to DVR was light-years beyond any move from DVR A to DVR B, no matter what DVRs they are. Oh, and the service! Top notch. You kids missed out, you really did. Reaped the benefits of the TiVolution, and now you're growing complacent and sullying that for which your elders have worked and struggled so much.

OK, I went over the edge into looniness there for a bit. I'm back. Sorry. 

Anyway, if you find it odd that he expects special treatment, that's because we've been getting special treatment. It's been nice, but I suppose it couldn't last forever. So cut the guy some slack, is all I'm sayin'. Nobody else at TiVo will.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TiVo does indeed have pretty bad customer service, sadly. My experiences last year when TiVo sent out an update that wrecked my Series 3 mirror yours. At least you got past "Level 2" in theory - I was told there was NOBODY who would contact me and that I was not allowed to talk to ANYONE above that. Like you, I was given NO other contact info. Basically, the very last step for TiVo is a level 2 tech, and nothing else. I have never dealt with a company that will not give me the chance to contact CS management.

Not sure what's worse, them telling me that and giving me absolutely no recourse to actually resolve my matter with a knowledgeable person (short of sending them my TiVo for replacement which I refused because I KNEW there was nothing wrong with it beyond the software), or them telling you someone higher up will contact you and never does.

Fortunately, TiVoJerry here in the forum was able to help me to a somewhat satisfactory answer, which included kickstart codes used for trouble shooting, after which I was able to hunt down an actual solution to my problem myself.

I completely understand the OP. I don't know if he's entitled to a free lifetime transfer, but I know that he's entitled to an answer from someone actually in charge (and callbacks when promised).

Since it's a lifetime unit, I second the suggestion that the OP just gets a new HD for it.


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## EdwinOlson (Jun 30, 2000)

Thanks to those who have suggested I swap out the drive. Unfortunately, this particular failure is with one of the tuners, not the hard disk. TiVo only offered an exchange, not a repair.

For those that think I'm whining: yes, I am. I feel that TiVo should serve all its customers better than I was served. Even ignoring the details of my particular experience (in which customer service made promises and then broke them), it's pretty clear that TiVo's policies are not consumer friendly.

There's a marginally reasonable case for TiVo to ask for a new "lifetime" subscription when upgrading from one model to a newer model. However, when a unit fails and is replaced, the situation is different. There's no additional value to the user (at best, they're back where they started), and there's no cost to TiVo to type in a new MAK. A $199 "transfer" fee is nothing but taking advantage of the customer who's in a bad spot. If for no other reason, this is a bad policy because it creates a perverse incentive for TiVo to manufacture shoddy hardware. No consumer should support such a scheme.

Note that I'm not complaining about the $149 fee to exchange the hardware. 

Regards,

-Edwin


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## TechDreamer (Jan 27, 2002)

Horrible customer service from Tivo?

Actually that's old news. The Tivo of today might as well be a different company. Tivo nowadays is just a platform for selling advertising. The total lack of posts about anything new or exciting from Tivo tells the story. I remember when I was one of the lone people who complained about Tivo. Now I just blend in with the crowd.


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

samo said:


> For the old members like me and Edwin this place was and still is a discussion forum about TiVo - good, bad or ugly.


Yes,I remember the good old days where we listened, helped and joked around.

It was a place like it is now, without the demeaning nature which is present here, it's sad cause I liked to come here all the time. now I just have to open 3 threads and see demeaning of someone.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I've been a Tivo owner and subscriber since they first hit the shelves. I've owned series 1, series 2 (DirecTivos only) and series 3 Tivos and not once have I ever felt the need to call Tivo Customer Service. I joined the hacking ranks back in the days when Dylan's Boot Disc was still being developed and discussed in the Tivo threads over at the AVSForums before they split off and formed the TCF. I was fortunate in that I have been able to repair every single problem I've ever had with a Tivo as a result. To the best of my knowledge, every Tivo I've ever laid hands on is still up and running.

Tivo is notorious for poor customer service, which is ironic when you consider that the company is barely hanging on and needs all the customers it can get. If I were in the OP's shoes, I would have first tried to replace the hard drive, assuming the symptoms it exhibited were indicative of such a failure. If that didn't work I would then seek out a repair service such as CCS or Weaknees. 

As someone indicated, lifetime service is tied to the box and if it dies it takes the service contract with it. Considering that Tivo was willing to replace the out-of-warranty S3 for only $149, it's really not such a bad deal considering a used S3 on ebay would probably cost you more. I don't recall if the OP indicated what kind of warranty came with it but I suspect it's a refurbished S3 with a 30 or 90-day warranty. 

The $199 for the lifetime service was really just a discount offer for the replacement S3 since the original lifetime contract was essentially null and void upon the demise of his Tivo. It may sound like a sucky deal when in fact the OP was getting a considerable price break from Tivo. Obviously, getting the Tivo fixed by a third party would have been the smart move since the lifetime issue would have never come into play. Chances are the cost of repair would have been less than what the replacement Tivo would have cost.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

EdwinOlson said:


> Thanks to those who have suggested I swap out the drive. Unfortunately, this particular failure is with one of the tuners, not the hard disk. TiVo only offered an exchange, not a repair.


so what is the lineage of the lifetime? That may provide a clue to TiVo wanting the transfer fee now.
My guess is that you bought the lifetime 9 years ago for 199$ and then transferred that to the S3 for another 199$ a few years ago.
TiVo has stated in these forums that they thought lifetime series 1 would be around for maybe 4 years tops as then everyone would switch to newer hardware and buy a new lifetime. TiVo horribly miscalculated that business model and they are paying for it ever since. It looks like now TiVo is trying to get some revenue out of those long used lifetime warranties. Since basically for you it was 3.70 a month for those 9 years.

If a lifetime is over 4 years old in total then I have little problem with TiVo saying a transfer fee is needed for out of warranty repair. there are 3rd party repair options out there, though they stay kind of discrete. Contact some of them and I imagine you will find a good resolution but they will charge money as well since they want to also stay in business.

Bottom line - some of the ire raised in this forum is over people who define themselves as loyal customers yet do not want to see TiVo find new revenue sources to keep a profit barely going.

to those demeaning the OP (and yes you were really demeaning) the OP was being factual and rational and presenting his perspective without ranting. Why are you all so quick to jump on someone not spoiling for a fight and turn it into a fight?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

EdwinOlson said:


> My plan is to build a MythTV box; I'll miss the polish of the TiVo interface and the sexy little box under my TV, but I won't miss the company that, once upon a time, used to evoke my enthusiasm.


on a different note - do you use cable cards in the S3?
If so you will run into hassles with the MythTV approach.


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## Karmavore (Nov 20, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo has stated in these forums that they thought lifetime series 1 would be around for maybe 4 years tops as then everyone would switch to newer hardware and buy a new lifetime. TiVo horribly miscalculated that business model and they are paying for it ever since.


I'm not sure this is accurate. Ever take a look at the TiVo 10Ks? They broke out the number of users who were paying monthly (including lifetimes less than 2 years old) and those users who weren't paying monthly (because they have a lifetime more than 2 years old, the arbitrary amortization period their accountants used.)

I was stunned to read that the number of customers that fell into the later category was just 60,000, a tiny sliver of their accounts. Buying lifetime seemed like such a financial no-brainer to me, I was surprised to see how few took advantage of it.

(This data was accurate a couple years ago, but I haven't gone back to research the situation now.)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Karmavore said:


> I was stunned to read that the number of customers that fell into the later category was just 60,000, a tiny sliver of their accounts. Buying lifetime seemed like such a financial no-brainer to me, I was surprised to see how few took advantage of it.


Not sure of that report or what it is trying to say. only 60,000 seems way low to me as well.

anyway - the old lifetimes are a drain on TiVo books and go right to bottom line negatives. Add in that series 1 can not join in the streaming and downloading revenue and the old loyal customers who did indeed give TiVo its start while taking a risk are now a block of ongoing expense with not as much return as newer customers pose. That is a simple business fact that TiVo is working through to solve with various approaches.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo has stated in these forums that they thought lifetime series 1 would be around for maybe 4 years tops as then everyone would switch to newer hardware and buy a new lifetime. TiVo horribly miscalculated that business model and they are paying for it ever since.





Karmavore said:


> I'm not sure this is accurate. Ever take a look at the TiVo 10Ks? They broke out the number of users who were paying monthly (including lifetimes less than 2 years old) and those users who weren't paying monthly (because they have a lifetime more than 2 years old, the arbitrary amortization period their accountants used.)


He's absolutely right. TiVo originally amortized revenue from lifetime subscriptions over four years. They increased that period to 54 and then 60 months, reducing annual revenues $2.5 and $1.7 million as a result. Tivo now has 225,000 lifetime subscribers who have exceeded the estimated life of their equipment. That number has grown from 26% to 34% of their lifetime subscriptions in the past year.

From TiVo's latest 10k:


> Effective November 1, 2007, we extended the period we use to recognize product lifetime subscription revenues from 48 months to 54 months for product lifetime subscriptions acquired on or before October 31, 2007 and such change is being recognized on a prospective basis. This change resulted in a reduction of service revenues of $2.5 million for the quarter and fiscal year ended January 31, 2008. During the quarter ended January 31, 2009, we extended the period used to recognize product lifetime subscription revenues for the product lifetime subscriptions acquired on or before October 31, 2007 from 54 months to 60 months, resulting in a reduction of service revenue of $1.7 million. Additionally, in the quarter ended January 31, 2008, we increased the amortization period to 60 months for new product lifetime subscriptions acquired on or after November 1, 2007. The new estimates of expected lives are dependant on assumptions with regard to future churn of the product lifetime subscriptions. As of January 31, 2009, 225,000 product lifetime subscriptions have exceeded the period we use to recognize product lifetime subscription revenues and had made contact with the TiVo service within the prior six month period. This represents approximately 34% of our cumulative lifetime subscriptions as compared to 26% for the fiscal year ended January 31, 2008.


Clearly this is a problem for TiVo. It's not unreasonable for them to try to address it, but either they've gone about it in a way that is unfair or we're not getting the whole story.

In this case it seems like the former. Even if the OP transferred an ancient lifetime sub to his S3, his S3 must be less than three years old. If TiVo charges for a lifetime service _transfer_ then it's unreasonable of them to impose a shorter effective lifetime on that unit than was expected by the lifetime service that was transferred.


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## Pixel (Jan 10, 2003)

EdwinOlson, I too wish for better customer service. It took 3 calls to solve a relatively simple problem with my THD a few months ago. If only...


To the point - what are you going to use instead? Or are you giving up watching TV?

I think that if this were my situation, I'd pay the $149 for the exchange. And likely the fee for the lifetime service. The lifetime is for the life of the Tivo, not you. That machine died. I imagine that if you summed up what would have been all the monthly charges that you've come out ahead. So you will again.

Companies exist to make money. They are not charities. I don't expect something for nothing. I DO expect to get my money's worth though. In my opinion, which you are free to ignore, you got your money's worth. It's time for a new "investment"

So, what are you going to use for a DVR if not a Tivo? I know options exist, but most of them aren't as useful as a Tivo. And given the studios obstinance, just about any DVR is getting to be of marginal utility with all their onerous copy protection schemes.

Not to wander far off the point, but for me, all that do not copy stuff is only doing one thing for me - learn to watch less TV. And even the shows I watch are on a smaller number of channels. It won't be long until there is no need to see anything.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

nrc said:


> Clearly this is a problem for TiVo. It's not unreasonable for them to try to address it, but either they've gone about it in a way that is unfair or we're not getting the whole story.
> 
> In this case it seems like the former. Even if the OP transferred an ancient lifetime sub to his S3, his S3 must be less than three years old. If TiVo charges for a lifetime service _transfer_ then it's unreasonable of them to impose a shorter effective lifetime on that unit than was expected by the lifetime service that was transferred.


thanks for the numbers to show what I had recalled from various postings. :up:

Curious - but if the OP had instead taken a one time free transfer of his old lifetime from his series 1 would you still think the transfer fee for repair unfair?


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## Pixel (Jan 10, 2003)

Karmavore said:


> I was stunned to read that the number of customers that fell into the later category was just 60,000, a tiny sliver of their accounts. Buying lifetime seemed like such a financial no-brainer to me, I was surprised to see how few took advantage of it.


After spending a sum, whatever that is, acquiring a Tivo, spending more for the lifetime makes the deal seem like a lot. Plus, I think Tivo buyers are probably a bit more knowlegeable about this stuff so maybe have read postings here or elsewhere that made it feel like Tivo was on the verge of going belly up. As soon as next week. So it seemed. Month to month feels better.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

nrc said:


> Even if the OP transferred an ancient lifetime sub to his S3, his S3 must be less than three years old. If TiVo charges for a lifetime service _transfer_ then it's unreasonable of them to impose a shorter effective lifetime on that unit than was expected by the lifetime service that was transferred.


No more unreasonable than for a customer to continue to use a unit after the expected lifetime has expired.
Buying lifetime service is just making a bet. You're betting that the unit will last longer than the time it would take you to pay that amount in subscription fees. Most of the time you win - the breakeven time is around four years, and TiVos generally last longer than that. But occasionally you're going to lose. That's just the way it is - you can't expect TiVo to cover your losses. If you don't want to expse yourself to the risk, don't make the bet - buy a regular subscription, which is transferrable without fee.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

EdwinOlson said:


> If for no other reason, this is a bad policy because it creates a perverse incentive for TiVo to manufacture shoddy hardware. No consumer should support such a scheme.


While as I said I understand your frustration with CS, I don't think you should expect to get a free lifetime transfer in this case (though out of sheer goodwill, I could see them bending the rules in some cases like this). The whole point is for TiVo to treat the lifetime units as any other electronics, like a DVD player, TV or something else.

What you say above could just as well be applied to any manufacturer of consumer electronics: they have an incentive to create shoddy hardware, as that increases sales for them. But of course, it doesn't, because people would stop buying their products. Likewise, TiVo doesn't have an incentive to deliberately make shoddy products, for the same reason.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

I've mentioned this in other threads, but I've been in the OP's situation, except it was my S1 motherboard that went bad.

I really lucked out, compared to the OP. The first person I talked to put me on hold, and came back and told me they will grant me a "one time exception", and told me I could go to Best Buy or Amazon, etc (I chose Amazon) and buy the TiVo of my choice and they will do a *free* transfer of my lifetime onto it. (I immediately got them to give me a case number once they made that great offer, because I didn't want anybody to 'mysteriously' forget the offer was made to me.)

So I bought a TiVoHD, and got my lifetime from my broken S1 transferred onto it for *free*! That sweet deal really put me in a good mood, and caused me to have a favorable/high opinion of TiVo customer service.

I'd've been in a good mood had they simply transferred it from from an S1 to another S1 (because I don't think they were obligated to even do that), but that they let me upgrade all the way to a brand-new TiVoHD with free lifetime was really nice.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

timckelley said:


> I've mentioned this in other threads, but I've been in the OP's situation, except it was my S1 motherboard that went bad.
> 
> I really lucked out, compared to the OP. The first person I talked to put me on hold, and came back and told me they will grant me a "one time exception", and told me I could go to Best Buy or Amazon, etc (I chose Amazon) and buy the TiVo of my choice and they will do a *free* transfer of my lifetime onto it. (I immediately got them to give me a case number once that made that great offer, because I didn't want anybody to 'mysteriously' forget the offer was made to me.)
> 
> ...


Are you sure that Series 1 didn't have its lifetime activated before January 21, 2000?


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Are you sure that Series 1 didn't have its lifetime activated before January 21, 2000?


Yes, quite sure of that. I only had the lifetime on it for maybe two years before all this happened, and it was just a year or so ago when it happened.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

timckelley said:


> Yes, quite sure of that. I only had the lifetime on it for maybe two years before all this happened, and it was just a year or so ago when it happened.


It depends to a great extent on luck and timing. In the past, if you've been observant you would realize that the best time to call up and make such a deal is two weeks before the end of a fiscal quarter in which TiVo is trying to meet their predicted numbers for subscription growth. They give their specialists extra leeway during such times. There's a reason why for several years TiVo would have great limited time deals during the middle of January!

Alas, I think those years are over. Stand-alone sub growth is no longer a focus of TiVo, and I doubt it ever will be again. They've given up (I believe correctly) on massive expansion in that market and will focus on the cable and dish market expansion. I think the new policy on lifetime transfers is just one instance where TiVo is no longer willing to eat the cost of being nicer than their rules dictate. TiVo has had very nice customer service compared to most (not all) other companies, but I think their reps are going to be more financially strict in the future than they have been.


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## MapleLeaf (Oct 12, 2007)

timckelley's post in conjunction with the OP has got me wondering about something. In order to replace a broken Tivo with a lifetime subscription, if Tivo is now breaking things down into a repair/exchange fee and a lifetime transfer fee, then if you've got a broken lifetimed Tivo, can you decline the repair/exchange fee and say that you'll provide your own replacement Tivo and that you simply want the lifetime subscription transferred onto the replacement Tivo that you'll provide?

If so, then I bet there'll be a considerable uptick in the number of accidentally-broken existing lifetime units ("oops, I accidentally dropped a sledgehammer on my Tivo", or "oops, I accidentally dropped my Tivo into the bathtub") when the Series 4 comes out. 

If Tivo won't permit this, then on what grounds? Is it valid/legal for Tivo to say that the only way you're "eligible" for the lifetime transfer fee is if you also pay for the repair/exchange fee?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

CrispyCritter said:


> Alas, I think those years are over. Stand-alone sub growth is no longer a focus of TiVo, and I doubt it ever will be again. They've given up (I believe correctly) on massive expansion in that market and will focus on the cable and dish market expansion. I think the new policy on lifetime transfers is just one instance where TiVo is no longer willing to eat the cost of being nicer than their rules dictate.


I think they given up on expansion period. Cable TiVo subs are in a noise level and DirecTV TiVo is not going to be introduced till 2010 at best. I think they are focusing on ads sales as the last resort to create hype for the Wall Street.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Good point, MapleLeaf. I suspect that's why they specifically told me this was a "one time exception" they were granting me. I guess that gives them the out to deny future requests of that kind.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

MapleLeaf said:


> If Tivo won't permit this, then on what grounds? Is it valid/legal for Tivo to say that the only way you're "eligible" for the lifetime transfer fee is if you also pay for the repair/exchange fee?




On the grounds that they have every right to ask any price the want for out of warranty service.


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## MapleLeaf (Oct 12, 2007)

scandia101 said:


> On the grounds that they have every right to ask any price the want for out of warranty service.


Yeah, and that would be the repair/exchange fee. But over and above that, they're also asking for a lifetime transfer fee. Whether or not you agree with this new policy, it at least seems like they are now treating it as two separate events/transactions. One event is the replacement of a broken out-of-warranty unit. The second event is the transferral of a lifetime subscription from a broken out-of-warranty unit to a working unit. So I'm thinking that if you're able to provide a replacement for a broken out-of-warranty Tivo by some other means than going through Tivo, shouldn't you then be able to perform the second event? Or can Tivo declare that in order to perform (and pay for) the second event, you must first perform (and pay for) the first event? That just somehow seems wrong to me. But by rolling your eyes, I guess you're of the opinion that they are fully within their rights to require this?


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

samo said:


> I think they given up on expansion period. Cable TiVo subs are in a noise level and DirecTV TiVo is not going to be introduced till 2010 at best. I think they are focusing on ads sales as the last resort to create hype for the Wall Street.


I think that's a major misread of the situation. The market that TiVo is aiming at is to be a (the?) default DVR (once the TiVo 4 OCAP machines come in) of the cable and satellite companies. The reason why the cable companies would go with TiVo is the revenue potential from the targeted ads that currently only TiVo can provide.

The ad revenue from the current TiVo subscriber base is too small to be important to TiVo (or to its investors), and always will be small even if ads become much more prevalent. There are not enough stand-alone subs out there.

IMO, the current increase in ads on the stand-alones is a pilot program designed to gain info on what works and what doesn't. TiVo is using the evidence of these ads in their dealings with the cable companies as they try to figure out their joint strategy for tapping this new pool of revenue.

The goal of the current ads is not to raise revenue for TiVo now, but to demonstrate the benefits to the cable companies of the cable companies partnering with TiVo.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

MapleLeaf said:


> Yeah, and that would be the repair/exchange fee. But over and above that, they're also asking for a lifetime transfer fee.
> ...
> But by rolling your eyes, I guess you're of the opinion that they are fully within their rights to require this?


Absolutely. I don't see how you can claim not, other than your wishful thinking that they look at it in the same way that you do.

There's no question that TiVo has been much more liberal with lifetime transfers on out-of-warranty machines than they have to be. They are fully within their rights to not allow any lifetime transfers at all (on out-of-warranty machines). Now they're substantially cutting back on their liberality, which is unfortunate for us. But they are still allowing the transfers.

My problems with the new program is that it hasn't been fully spelled out exactly what the rules are, and the end result we get from the reps is not consistent with the rules they tell us. (A maximum of one transfer fee every 3 years, except some transfer fees don't count?). And in addition they need to make clear what is done for in-warranty machines, and what exactly is the warranty policy on replacement machines.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> I think that's a major misread of the situation. The market that TiVo is aiming at is to be a (the?) default DVR (once the TiVo 4 OCAP machines come in) of the cable and satellite companies. The reason why the cable companies would go with TiVo is the revenue potential from the targeted ads that currently only TiVo can provide.


yep. They are in the unsettling place of still seeing their potential profit somewhere off down the road even after 9 years. 
TiVo started as a great idea to record video on a box that was within the price range of the comfortable middle class. At first it was indeed to sell as many boxes as they could. Then an unseen wall was hit up against beyond which it is very hard to market a stand alone DVR. Even the cable companies came upon this wall - a DVR in itself was not seen as that something to have like a PC was as it started entering into the majority of households.
So TiVo floundered about, tried a much better box and that did not inspire even the loyal customers who bought the series 1 to move on enmass to new hardware/subs. TiVo found a saving grace in DirectTV who made the TiVo software/hardware part of their standard offering.
So then came the great marketing blitz and mail in rebates - it had me come on board at a 240 model for 200$, Also the cable company wanted me to go digital before I could get their DVR and I was fine with analog service and not paying more. I was the old CEO's target demographic - but there were not many like me it seems.  Still no significant spike in total TiVo owned subs. Better software was again tried in the likes of HMO/TiVoToGo along with the still churning marketing campaign. Anyone recall all the mail in rebate threads.  And still the market was not pulled in. People were not looking for a better mousetrap it seems. Then came Comcast with many 10 of millions of dollars and TiVo breathed much easier again. Side note - Comcast is the actual bankroller behind the ad technology. Comcast hopes to be first in line when they feel they can unleash it on their DVR audience. However the idea of Tivo software on a cbale company DVR was squashed under the typical decisions of comcast that meant using hardware in place that could not run the advanced software. TiVo on Comcast will be a sad footnote.

An HD TiVo came out and TiVo finally stopped the ludicrous mail in rebate junk. So now the people holding on to Series 1 and series 2 had an actual reason to upgrade the hardware and that has made TiVo mildly profitable as the new CEO took the focus off the ill founded notion the sub base can be grown and back on actual selling what they do sell for a profit. So far marginally good.

So TiVo is once again at the same crossroads but at least with a CEO focused on the business plan instead of the product design. I am sure he thinks of TiVo doing something that catches fire and suddenly everyone gets one and he has some muscle of 20 million stand alone subs but then he wakes up and heads into the office. There he checks on how DirectTiVo HD is going so he can count on that revenue stream to keep day to day cash flowing. Then he checks on how the series 4 is going. Then he checks on how the ad technology is going.
THEN he calls the cable companies and continues to promote his idea of how TV can go from being watch it when it is on only to the idea of watch it when you want BUT no need to fear the ad revenue model going away. Sure you cable guys are figuring out how to do this on a PC and that is cool but what magic software on a cheap box will make that happen on the TV?

So I agree that TiVo no longer concerns it self with selling more subs - there is no ROI to be had in pushing for that.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

MapleLeaf said:


> Yeah, and that would be the repair/exchange fee. But over and above that, they're also asking for a lifetime transfer fee. Whether or not you agree with this new policy, it at least seems like they are now treating it as two separate events/transactions. One event is the replacement of a broken out-of-warranty unit. The second event is the transferral of a lifetime subscription from a broken out-of-warranty unit to a working unit.


SFW?
You're lucky to get anything. Product lifetime service is for the life of the product. If the product is dead, so is the lifetime service. If they want to sell you lifetime at a reduced price for a refurb that they also sell you, they can do that. They can also offer you absolutely nothing.



> So I'm thinking that if you're able to provide a replacement for a broken out-of-warranty Tivo by some other means than going through Tivo, shouldn't you then be able to perform the second event? Or can Tivo declare that in order to perform (and pay for) the second event, you must first perform (and pay for) the first event?


Yes, they can do that. They have no obligation to do either, so offering each one at a price lower than your retail cost can not possible be considered, underhanded, shady or in any way shape or form, illegal.



> That just somehow seems wrong to me.


I'd say that's because you do not understand that you are entitled to nothing if you no longer have a warranty and that lifetime service dies with the product.



> But by rolling your eyes, I guess you're of the opinion that they are fully within their rights to require this?


It's not opinion. It's fact.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

scandia101 said:


> SFW?
> You're lucky to get anything. Product lifetime service is for the life of the product. If the product is dead, so is the lifetime service. If they want to sell you lifetime at a reduced price for a refurb that they also sell you, they can do that. They can also offer you absolutely nothing.


the only thing missing about the policy is that there is no option to simply repair the box you gave them. I expect that would cost TiVo some money though as it is a different matter to have someone with the skills to replace a tuner versus the skills to run tests that certify a refurb from elsewhere is good to ship to a customer and then switch the lifetime to that new TSN.

for in warranty items then this lack of fixing the hardware directly falls on TiVo to cover and they do by transferring the lifetime with no fee. That would apply to up to the 1 year parts warranty.

Now when the box is out of warranty it is no longer TiVo's responsibility to fix it. They provide a service for "fixing" hardware but really it is there to help a customer who has not figured out where else to turn. Frankly I would be reluctant to use the MFG to repair my items out of warranty as typically they have the least incentive to repair it as cheaply as possible.

I think the newly instituted transfer fee is tied to the length of the lifetime. I would think a complete accounting of the length of the lifetime for the OP would show that TiVo views it as past what they accounted for on the books so when the hardware stops working and you want TiVo to get it working again - then time to collect a transfer fee again. If this policy had been in place since day one then no one would be complaining, as it is something we took for granted was pulled back and now people have to adjust.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think the newly instituted transfer fee is tied to the length of the lifetime. I would think a complete accounting of the length of the lifetime for the OP would show that TiVo views it as past what they accounted for on the books so when the hardware stops working and you want TiVo to get it working again - then time to collect a transfer fee again. If this policy had been in place since day one then no one would be complaining, as it is something we took for granted was pulled back and now people have to adjust.


Not really related to Warranty, but here's Tivo's definition of a subcription, taken from the 2009 Fourth Quarter Earnings press release (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-newsArticle&id=1261660):



> We define a "subscription" as a contract referencing a TiVo-enabled DVR for which (i) a consumer has committed to pay for the TiVo service and (ii) service is not canceled. We count product lifetime subscriptions in our subscription base until both of the following conditions are met: (i) the period we use to recognize product lifetime subscription revenues ends; and (ii) the related DVR has not made contact to the TiVo service within the prior six month period. Product lifetime subscriptions past this period which have not called into the TiVo service for six months are not counted in this total. Effective November 1, 2008, we extended the period we use to recognize product lifetime subscription revenues from 54 months to 60 months for all product lifetime subscriptions acquired on or before October 31, 2007. We now amortize all product lifetime subscriptions over a 60 month period. We are not aware of any uniform standards for defining subscriptions and caution that our presentation may not be consistent with that of other companies. Additionally, the subscription fees that some of our MSOs/Broadcasters pay us may be based upon a specific contractual definition of a subscriber or subscription which may not be consistent with how we define a subscription for our reporting purposes.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

You know, $149 for a refurbished S3 is not a bad deal. I paid more than twice that for mine, not including any service. Is there not a third party way to fix the problem that is no Hard Drive related? Is there no way to find the needed part?

It almost seems like taking your car to the dealer. You know you will leave with the right parts and a fixed vehicle (well usually ), but at what cost?

You can take your car to a 'third party' shop or fix it yourself, usually cheaper. Then good luck getting a warranty or service contract.

If TiVo is essentially forcing the OP to get a 'new' refurbished box with a transferred sub - I would think the replacement box would come with a warranty? Am I dreaming?


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## westtown73 (Nov 11, 2007)

The tuner on my TIVO HD with a lifetime subscription died earlier this year after about 2 years of service. I called Tivo and was given the $149 number. I whined and asked for a better price and my wish was granted as it was dropped to $89. There was never any mention of a charge to maintain the lifetime subscription.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

They need to just have 5 years instead of lifetime sub. Lifetime just doesnt make sense, since no machine last that long. But charging you to change your sub, is even more ridiculous. Its cheaper just to get a Moxi at that point.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> But charging you to change your sub, is even more ridiculous. Its cheaper just to get a Moxi at that point.


 800 < 199 +149


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Videodrome said:


> They need to just have 5 years instead of lifetime sub. Lifetime just doesnt make sense, since no machine last that long. But charging you to change your sub, is even more ridiculous. Its cheaper just to get a Moxi at that point.


TiVos will run much more than five years, you may have to change out the hard drive but that easy for most people and some cos will do it for you. Lifetime also gives your TiVo much more resale value if you want to upgrade to a newer model. ( I got $320 for a LT Series 1 when i did my first upgrade to the Series 2 540 and about the same for the 540 when i upgraded to the Series 3. I paid only $200 for the Series 1 Lifetime service) With Lifetime Service the cost of ownership is very low (unless your in the very small % that has a MB problem). If you have MSD on your account than Lifetime Service only cost you $199 over a one year service contract. To me nothing else make sense, because its so easy to service a TiVo as compared to most electronics (try fixing a DVD player or VCR). For me and my family who don't care about VOD or PPV I will most likely keep my Series 3 TiVos for a very long time as i can't see what TiVo could produce that would get me to change.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Videodrome said:


> They need to just have 5 years instead of lifetime sub. Lifetime just doesnt make sense, since no machine last that long. But charging you to change your sub, is even more ridiculous. Its cheaper just to get a Moxi at that point.


???

By defintion, every Tivo with a lifetime subscription will live that long.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> 800 < 199 +149


What about the initial sub charge ? Were talking in total old unit + new unit.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

CrispyCritter said:


> IMO, the current increase in ads on the stand-alones is a pilot program designed to gain info on what works and what doesn't. TiVo is using the evidence of these ads in their dealings with the cable companies as they try to figure out their joint strategy for tapping this new pool of revenue.
> 
> The goal of the current ads is not to raise revenue for TiVo now, but to demonstrate the benefits to the cable companies of the cable companies partnering with TiVo.


Assuming that cable companies and both satellite providers are going to violate Sherman Antitrust Act and negotiate to introduce ads on DVRs together, it may work. Otherwise what cable or satellite company will be stupid enough to be the first to introduce ads and drive away customers to the competition?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> Assuming that cable companies and both satellite providers are going to violate Sherman Antitrust Act and negotiate to introduce ads on DVRs together, it may work. Otherwise what cable or satellite company will be stupid enough to be the first to introduce ads and drive away customers to the competition?


to go from DBS to cable or cable to DBS is a bit of hassle. People wont move just because of ads if they feel the same value other wise is there. This is the same reason TiVo has line before which they can try ads in various places without loosing significant subs solely because of the ads.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> to go from DBS to cable or cable to DBS is a bit of hassle. People wont move just because of ads if they feel the same value other wise is there.


Plus most people don't give a crap about ads, really. "Oh, an ad? That's annoying. Now, when does CSI start..." is probably the most reaction it will get from most people.


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## nrnoble (Aug 25, 2004)

Boy interesting thread. Not sure what to make of it overall

I was a S1 owner that transferred Lifetime to a new S3 ($199 to transfer) a few years ago. The S3 did fail after 2 years. TiVo did replaced it for only $149. I had no problems with Customer service. 

In this OP's specific case, I think TiVo's CS is confused. If you paid for a lifetime service on that S3 unit, you don't need to purchase another lifetime servoce. Now.... If you (or anyone) are upgrading from an older model to a newer model (ie S1\S2 --> S3), then then $199 for a lifetime upgrade applies. Since you are doing a S3 --> S3 replacement, you should only be paying $149.

And in my case, TiVo had to send me two S3 units. And the second unit was totally free because the unit bad. 

With no assumptions made about what happened on the phone with CS. About 85&#37; of the time I get really good service by never venting on the CS rep. Pissing them off often means they don't want to help you out, they just want to get you off the line ASAP so the can talk to a different customer who is more reasonable. I always keep my cool and try to sweet talk them as much as I can so the CS rep feels good about talking with me. However, occationally I get a rep who is having a bad day, and doesn't want to help me or anyone else. If I get the sense that the rep is not going to solve my problem, I just get off the line quickly and right call back. Nearly always when I call back I get somebody much better.


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## jkfishking (Jul 17, 2006)

Edwin (OP) I understand your frustration (trust me, poor customer service ENRAGES me) but here is why you are wrong - *when you bought the original lifetime subscription you knew it was for the life of the unit and nothing more*. That's it, easy right?

I guess when you called Tivo they should have just said, "sorry, go buy a new one." That would have been in line with the original "promise". All of us lifetime purchasers did so fully understanding it's for the life of the unit and we all hope for the best when paying the $$$. Your unit failed, bad luck for you. My house was struck by lightning two weeks ago and I lost TWO Tivo's (with lifetime) - bad luck for me. In case you are wondering, Tivo won't swap my units or transfer the lifetime for ANY FEE!! At least they are giving you an option.

Other thoughts:

- Just the fact that Tivo provided "hours and hours" of support in diagnosing your issue says something (good). Since it was out of warranty, they had no obligation to provide this support. This service to you probably cost them $20-$30 hour - you can do the math.

- Your issue is like taking your out-of-warranty vehicle to the dealer for service and then complaining about the cost. The dealer (Tivo) charges more than 3rd party mechanics (weakknees, dvrupgrade, etc.) - everybody knows this. If I were you, I would look for a 3rd party to make this repair. Or, sell your unit "as-is" on eBay and let someone who knows how to fix it buy it. Then take the $$ and apply toward a new or refurb unit, you will probably come out ahead.

- I don't believe that you will leave Tivo - where are you going to go? Do you plan to get an inferior cable or satellite DVR for a (much) higher price ($10-$20/month)?? Or, maybe you are going to go back to watching live TV (yea, right!)?? The fact is there is no similar service with Tivo's quality at a comparable price point. Tivo is the BEST with the LOWEST cost - even with the extra $199 fee you will be WAY ahead of a cable company DVR in about 8-12 months.

- Tivo never anticipated the emergence of 3rd party repair providers in determining their "life of the unit". Most PC's (including Tivo) will have some sort of failure within 4-6 years. Tivo simply didn't properly anticipate the 3rd party and DIY repair options that would emerge. Just think, without 3rd party upgrades, Hard drive replacements, and repair services, almost all of us "early adopters" would have replaced our units by now. Personally speaking, I've had two Tivo's for 5+ years and both have experienced hard-drive failures (one has failed twice). If not for weakknees and eBay, I wouldn't have been able to get them repaired outside of Tivo. I know other users who have had various failures as well - nobody I know has gone to Tivo for the repair(s) either!!

- In my experience, organizations who give their reps ANY latitude to waive fees, offer additional services, etc. will create a situation where you don't get the same answer from rep to rep. Especially if one rep "approves" a waiver only for a higher level rep to undo it (happened here?). While unfortunate that this can occur, I prefer to at least know I have a "chance" at getting a waiver. At least Tivo gives (at least at some level) the ability to waive or reduce fees. The OP wasn't successful, some people are. Personally, I prefer this to the Stalinistic NO EXCEPTIONS NO MATTER WHAT policy that some companies (i.e. COMCAST) have in place. Have you ever tried to get anything from them? It's like squeezing blood from a turnip. I once had a late fee posted two days after my account was paid in full but the rep said, "sorry, I know it's wrong but there is nothing I can do. We can't refund late fees."

- I think Tivo will eventually drop (permanently) the lifetime service. I half expect at some point for them to release firmware that can detect system upgrades, 3rd party repairs, etc. and drop existing lifetime service for those units if they are over xx years old (probably 5-10). Tivo called this service "lifetime" for marketing purposes, does anyone really think a Tivo or this service will last 10, 20, or 30 years? While I hope Tivo doesn't discontinue lifetime service or drop existing (repaired) units, it could happen. So I say, snap up the lifetimes while you can!

- Tivo could tell me tomorrow that all my paid and existing lifetime subscriptions were going to be canceled unless I paid $199 each and I would pay it. I would bi$#&, moan, complain, claim it's extortion, flame them online, threaten to sue, and then ultimately pay it. The simple fact is that Tivo is much more valuable than most give them credit for. My time is $$ (isn't everybody's) and the time Tivo saves me is WAY more valuable than the $$ it costs to have the service. Not to mention, I probably spend $200/year less on video purchases/rentals than before Tivo (Disney season passes = less $$ spent on the kids videos).

I've gone on long enough so I'll shut-up now, cheers!


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

nrnoble said:


> I was a S1 owner that transferred Lifetime to a new S3 ($199 to transfer) a few years ago. The S3 did fail after 2 years. TiVo did replaced it for only $149. I had no problems with Customer service.
> 
> In this OP's specific case, I think TiVo's CS is confused. If you paid for a lifetime service on that S3 unit, you don't need to purchase another lifetime servoce. Now.... If you (or anyone) are upgrading from an older model to a newer model (ie S1\S2 --> S3), then then $199 for a lifetime upgrade applies. Since you are doing a S3 --> S3 replacement, you should only be paying $149.
> .


nrnoble,

You need to read the other thread on this lifetime service transfer charge. TiVo has changed their policy as of May 1st (?) for exchanges on out-of-warranty units and is now charging a transfer charge of $199 if the lifetime service is older than 3 years. It would also appear that for those of us that did the lifetime transfer from a Series 1 to a Series 3 that does not rest the counter on the lifetime service.

Scott


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## nrnoble (Aug 25, 2004)

HerronScott said:


> nrnoble,
> 
> You need to read the other thread on this lifetime service transfer charge. TiVo has changed their policy as of May 1st (?) for exchanges on out-of-warranty units and is now charging a transfer charge of $199 if the lifetime service is older than 3 years. It would also appear that for those of us that did the lifetime transfer from a Series 1 to a Series 3 that does not rest the counter on the lifetime service.
> 
> Scott


Thanks Scott. I did not know there had been a change in policy. I am guessing that TiVo is loosing money with $149 exchange.

As others have suggested, it looks like 3rd party options will become the #1 choice for TiVo owners like us.

I too think I would have been taken by surprise if I were told I needed to buy a new lifetime sub after spending top dollar for each one of my TiVo since 1999. Since reading this thread, I think I understand the counter arguments in that "lifetime" does not mean "indefinite".

If TiVo has not already done so, they should clarify that life time has minimum specific length (3-5 years) and if a unit goes out of service after that, then owners need to consider various options, but TiVo does not have extend the lifetime sub if TiVo exchanges a unit for refurbished unit.


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## alyssa (Dec 7, 2003)

It seems as tho Tivo wants to get out of the business of repair/replacing lifetime units. 
I can't say as I blame them. Personally, when my lifetime S3 develops a serious problem it'll be shipped to a 3rd party for a fix. Or I'll figure out how to fix it myself.


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## Kyalami (Jun 14, 2003)

As of today I am also a former long time subscriber to TIVO (and TIVO stockholder). But my reason for departing both as subscriber and shareholder is their business practices. I have a Series 1 with a lifetime contract but unable to contact TIVO programming because I have Verizon FIOS telephone service. I also have a Series 2 for which I was paying $6.95 monthly on my charge card. I purchased an HD days ago and in the process of transferring my service from the Series 2 to the HD I discovered that several months ago the monthly charge was upped to $12.95 without any notice to me.. I called to find out why and was told that this was because the Series 1 had not called in for a year. I explained that this was due to the fact that this was not possible with FIOS. After much discussion the customer service rep I was talking to said I could have the $6.95 rate again. I then said I would permit Verizon's tech rep to keep his imminent appointment to install the necessary cable card and I ordered a TIVO brand wireless adapter. That evening and after the installation was complete I received an e-mail informing me that I was not going to get the lower rate, not going to get a refund of the higher charges and no mention was made of the impossibility of the Series 1 connecting with TIVO. I called TIVO and received no satisfaction except an expression of regret that I was leaving as a subscriber after approximately 8 years to become a Verizon DVR user.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Kyalami said:


> I have a Series 1 with a lifetime contract but unable to contact TIVO programming because I have Verizon FIOS telephone service


I have to say that I think your expectation of your 10 year old hardware successfully communicating over brand new voip phone lines is unrealistic at best.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

Kyalami said:


> I then said I would permit Verizon's tech rep to keep his imminent appointment to install the necessary cable card and I ordered a TIVO brand wireless adapter.


Does this mean that your lifetimed TiVo is going to (after a year of not calling in) finally call in successfully now? I would think that would automatically qualify you for the $6.95 rate again on your 2nd TiVo. I don't understand why they won't honor that.



solutionsetc said:


> I have to say that I think your expectation of your 10 year old hardware successfully communicating over brand new voip phone lines is unrealistic at best.


At the very least, I can understand his position that he disagrees with the ethics of promising him a certain price and then renegging on that promise. Did you get a case number from the call where they promised that? Or are they actually admitting that they made the promise, but that they're just going to reneg on it?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Kyalami said:


> I purchased an HD days ago and in the process of transferring my service from the Series 2 to the HD I discovered that several months ago the monthly charge was upped to $12.95 without any notice to me.. I called to find out why and was told that this was because the Series 1 had not called in for a year.


Not having owned a Series 1, I'm curious what functionality it would have not getting service for a year? Could it even know what the FIOS channel line up is? I wouldn't be surprised a bit that Tivo thought it to be dead...


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## rlcarr (Jan 18, 2003)

In fact, I thought it was SOP (and explicitly stated in the terms and agreements) that a lifetimed unit had to call in at least every 6 months to be considered a qualifying box for MSD on another box.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

If the lifetimed S1 can't call in, thus qualifying, because of the type of phone line Kyalami has, then he should take it over to somebody else's house every six months, just to get it to call in and preserve the the qualifying status, then bring it home again.


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## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

why would it not be able to call in because of FIOS? A regular phone has no problem dialing on a fios line


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## mbhuff (Jan 25, 2004)

Fios does not use VoIP for telephony at all. At the ONT they mux the telephone POTS signal into a different frequency of laser and de-mux at at the CO back to POTS which is then sent over their normal digital switching system. There won't be an issue with modems or faxes with Fios unlike cable companies. They do the same with the cable signal. Ultimately they may switch to a packet based system, but their current system is well thought out. They get the fiber in place, use existing technologies, and migrate to whatever they want in the future since they should be able to drive at least gig-e to the ONT if not 10gig-e in the future (10GBASE-LX4).


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## jeffw_00 (Sep 19, 2000)

It does seem like TiVo is starting to draw harder lines. We can only hope that the retained revenue exceeds cost of customer dissatisfaction. I think what's throwing people is that TiVo "repairs" out-of-warranty units by swapping them. If it's really a "repair" then Lifetime should be valid as it stays with the unit. If it's a "replace" then things get murkier, as I should be able to get a replacement unit from -anywhere- and get the same deal on xfering lifetime. The fact that if you "replace" with Tivo gets you a discount on Lifetime on the new unit is what's confusing enough to p-ss people off. Especially as for the same $149, you could probably -repair- the unit elsewhere and KEEP the lifetime. 

TiVo's biggest sin, here, I think, is making it confusing enough that people don't feel they're being treated fairly
/j


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jeffw_00 said:


> TiVo's biggest sin, here, I think, is making it confusing enough that people don't feel they're being treated fairly
> /j


Well it used to one way and now it is another way - I will grant you that. But what is confusing?

TiVo offers to get you a working unit by swapping you for a refurb of the same model for 149$. Getting a newer model will be case by case. Now that lifetime has been around for a while TiVo is starting to charge a transfer fee for lifetimes older than 4 years. I have yet to see a case where they asked for the fee on less than total 4 year old lifetimes.

TiVo is clear up front about the charge and you indeed have the option to use a 3rd party to repair the unit instead. Other issues are inconsistent CSR dealings but that is a different matter.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I think the simpliest thing for tivo to do is just charge $350 to "repair" units in the future (and give anothe year warrenty) and that includes any needed lifetime transfer, alternately they could offer people a brand new box for 150 (or maybe 200) to replace the old box if they agree to renew their contract. (X months or a new lifetime).

I think that would get them basically the revenue they want but without so many hard feelings from lifetime subs. They basically sell new boxes for 200 bucks now a days anyway - right?

lifetime people might get refurbs for 350. Or they might choose to upgrade to a new box with lifetime. month to month people would get a new box for 150/200 and get locked in - win win for everyone- no?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

samo said:


> Assuming that cable companies and both satellite providers are going to violate Sherman Antitrust Act and negotiate to introduce ads on DVRs together, it may work. Otherwise what cable or satellite company will be stupid enough to be the first to introduce ads and drive away customers to the competition?


I'm farily sure that both directv and comcast already have deals with tivo to use tivos ad "technology" not only on their dvr's running tivo software but also on any dvr's they run. To my knowledge neither is using tivo back end or encoding technology on any other platform. But I'm pretty sure the deals had those provisions.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I'm farily sure that both directv and comcast already have deals with tivo to use tivos ad "technology" not only on their dvr's running tivo software but also on any dvr's they run. To my knowledge neither is using tivo back end or encoding technology on any other platform. But I'm pretty sure the deals had those provisions.


Comcast gave TiVo the R&D money for commercial technology for the right to use it on their systems.

no idea about DirectTV agreement


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## rmackay (Apr 23, 2007)

Interesting thread. Although not present much on the forums, I've been a TiVo user since the first 250 customers about 10 years ago. I had a Series I, lifetime sub, which I then transferred to a Series 3 about 3 years ago, which yesterday just died due to a hard drive failure.

Call TiVo? sure I did - they wanted to charge me $350. Cry about it and have a sense of entitlement from being an early adopter? Ummm.. no. Just purchase a new hard drive and tomorrow it'll be up and running again.


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## Kyalami (Jun 14, 2003)

I thank those who were kind enough to respond to my complaint about TIVO and their response to my problem with not being able to call in with my Series 1 using Verizon's FIOS telephone service.After a last ditch call to TIVO apparently re-consideration may be given to TIVO's decision to do nothing. For those not familiar with problem, all of TIVO's technical people that I have spoken with agree that a Series 1 just cannot function with FIOS. In the last several days I have tried a number of times. Although I have gotten as far as a complete download on a few attempts it simply will not load the data. FIOS is not VOIP like Vonage or Skype. It is optical cable instead of copper and is digital. Verizon is in the process of re-wiring its entire network so you cannot simply go to someone else's house to connect on their telephone line. Copper is simply vanishing like the dinosaurs. Whatismore, my Series 1 is a perfectly functioning DVR having been serviced and been given a new larger hard drive by Weekknees not long before FIOS was installed at my house. When FIOS was installed it stopped communicating with TIVO. On the other hand, my Series 2 which utilizes a broadband wireless adapter has functioned smoothly from the get go (once a tech rep provided a little assistance in getting the settings right). Kyalami


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Kyalami said:


> Verizon is in the process of re-wiring its entire network so you cannot simply go to someone else's house to connect on their telephone line. Copper is simply vanishing like the dinosaurs. Whatismore, my Series 1 is a perfectly functioning DVR having been serviced and been given a new larger hard drive by Weekknees not long before FIOS was installed at my house.


Huh, verizon is putting fiber optical to everyone's house and forcing them to not use their normal phone? First I heard of that.

as for the series 1, call weakknees, they can sned you a card that will allow your series 1 to use a broadband connection over the network like your series 2 does. It costs 70$ last I looked but if you really want to keep using that series 1 then it is a viable option.


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## darksurtur (Jan 2, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Huh, verizon is putting fiber optical to everyone's house and forcing them to not use their normal phone? First I heard of that.
> 
> as for the series 1, call weakknees, they can sned you a card that will allow your series 1 to use a broadband connection over the network like your series 2 does. It costs 70$ last I looked but if you really want to keep using that series 1 then it is a viable option.


I think standard install procedure for FiOS is to pull the copper line from your house when they install fiber optics, unless you ask for them specifically not to do so. This in essence makes it impossible to go back to regular phone lines. I doubt anyone in customer service or in install thoroughly outlines the implications of pulling the copper (why should they? they reduce their own competition in this way), so for many this is a surprise, I gather.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

darksurtur said:


> I think standard install procedure for FiOS is to pull the copper line from your house when they install fiber optics, unless you ask for them specifically not to do so. This in essence makes it impossible to go back to regular phone lines. I doubt anyone in customer service or in install thoroughly outlines the implications of pulling the copper (why should they? they reduce their own competition in this way), so for many this is a surprise, I gather.


I've heard that too- they nuke the twisted pair- and I'd agree that they wont tell anyone. And probably if you call to get phone if you buy or rent such a place they sell you on fios. BUT I'm pretty sure you can get cooper back just by asking if the new renter/owner didn't want fios.
I'd venture to bet that since the twisted pair is still a regulated utility that you could ask for a fresh twisted pair to get installed and they would have no choice but to oblidge or incur the wrath of the local utility regulator.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

It was SOP for them to yank down the fiber, and tell the customer a load of bull about 'having to do it'. I think they got their ass handed to them (in NJ?) for the deceptive practice and have largely stopped trying to force the removal of the existing copper. Your best bet is to leave it up, make the bastards continue to support it.


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

scandia101 said:


> Lifetime Product service is for the life of your Tivo. I'm sure you are well aware of that. If your Tivo dies the day after the warranty expires, you have no claim to anything. I'm sure you are well aware of that. Whining about not getting any special treatment is just a foolish waste of time.
> 
> Take your ridiculous false sense of entitlement and go. You won't be missed. That, I guarantee for life.


Thats why I buy my Tivos from Costco. Costco doesn't include tivos under their 90 day return policy for Tvs/Computers. I will say that Tivo's warranty of 90 days is riduculous. It should have at least a one year warranty like most consumer electronics with options for an extended warranty for an additional fee.


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