# WARNING - Before you go in for the HR20



## rrr22777 (Jul 31, 2002)

I am a long time Tivo user who took the plunge for the HR20 because of the new HD channels available only on the HR20 (Directv DVR). I am just finding out what a big mistake that was!! So before you take the plunge consider this:

1. Missed recordings.. unit has missed 4 recordings this week saying something about the recording being cancelled by someone. During some of those cancellations NO ONE WAS HOME!

2. 50 season passes. There is a limit on the season passes!! 

Feel free to add to the list but IMHO just the missed recording are enough to go back to the Tivo.


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## narrod (Nov 23, 2002)

I have two and neither has missed a recording. I've never had anywhere close to 50 season passes so the limitation does not effect me.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Perhaps the engineers that designed it thought that at 50 season passes you really needed someone to tell you to get a life.


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## Tonedeaf (Sep 24, 2004)

My 2 HR20's have been flawless in the last 2 months of service. Getting my 3rd delivered to me next Saturday.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> Perhaps the engineers that designed it thought that at 50 season passes you really needed someone to tell you to get a life.


LMAFO! I was going to say the same thing. If you are watching 50 different show, *you really*, *really *need to get out of the house and find a life... 

So far my HR20-700 has missed ZERO shows since June. The HR10-250 in 1 yrs time; 3!

The HR10-250 was fine until the 6* updates and it was down hill from there. I prefer the HR20 and I am happy. Would a M4 Tivo make me happy? Sure if it had all the features of the HR20!  Oh, plus what they currently have.

My HR10-250 will go into the closet for another HR20 when I get a new LCD for the bedroom and a SWM.

With the new M4 channels the HR10 has seen it's day a s a HD receiver for SAT. Great for SD and OTA though.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

HiDefGator said:


> Perhaps the engineers that designed it thought that at 50 season passes you really needed someone to tell you to get a life.


Yes, they have better things to do, like manage their season links according to the time of year to stay under the limit. That's quality time with the family since each family member in a typical family only gets a dozen or so.

rrr22777, my advice is to hang around here. HR20 users that spend time on TiVo forums never experience missed recordings while it's a frequent topic of discussion on DirecTV forums.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

rrr22777 said:


> I am a long time Tivo user who took the plunge for the HR20 because of the new HD channels available only on the HR20 (Directv DVR). I am just finding out what a big mistake that was!! So before you take the plunge consider this:
> 
> 1. Missed recordings.. unit has missed 4 recordings this week saying something about the recording being cancelled by someone. During some of those cancellations NO ONE WAS HOME!
> 
> ...


Missed recordings, spontaneous reboots where the reason I moved from the HR10, got tired of the anguished screams from the wife and kids of the tv isn't working again!


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

rrr22777 said:


> I am a long time Tivo user who took the plunge for the HR20 because of the new HD channels available only on the HR20 (Directv DVR). I am just finding out what a big mistake that was!! So before you take the plunge consider this:
> 
> 1. Missed recordings.. unit has missed 4 recordings this week saying something about the recording being cancelled by someone. During some of those cancellations NO ONE WAS HOME!
> 
> ...


Well go back to Tivo, just remember to switch to Cable, drop Directv and enjoy the up front cost of the Series 3 or TivoHD unit.

Thats if you want HD in the Future, if you only want SD, then you will be fine... but if that was the case, why get a HR20 in the first place


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## krs7272 (Feb 2, 2002)

rrr22777 said:


> 50 season passes. There is a limit on the season passes!!!


Not gonna fly here I have 70+ season passes


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## jfischer (Oct 14, 1999)

krs7272 said:


> Not gonna fly here I have 70+ season passes


Do you watch all of that on one TV? Just wondering if two HR20's might be better on two TVs to be able to watch all of that.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

wolflord11 said:


> Well go back to Tivo, just remember to switch to Cable, drop Directv and enjoy the up front cost of the Series 3 or TivoHD unit.


Just in case anyone believes the above advice is serious rather than sarcastic, and is tempted to switch to Cable, here's some advice: *DO YOUR HOMEWORK FIRST!*

The recent 9.1 software "upgrade" pushed to the S3 and THD is a steaming pile of *S**T*. Details in the appropriate forum.


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## rrr22777 (Jul 31, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> Perhaps the engineers that designed it thought that at 50 season passes you really needed someone to tell you to get a life.


Maybe you need to learn how to use the DVR to your advantage. Drinking Bud light on weekends and eating pizza is not my idea of life.. enjoy yours.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

I also don't care for the 50 season pass limit but the tradeoff is you get blazing fast times when you rearrange the order. My DTivo takes several minutes to move 1 season pass up or down in the list. My HR20 does it in less than a second.

I've had the HR20 for about six months and I don't recall a single missed recording. As for "someone in the household"...remember what we DTivo users went through when they did the new software to handle the change in the start of daylight savings this year? I was missing recordings right and left during that week or so.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

gio1269 said:


> LMAFO! I was going to say the same thing. If you are watching 50 different show, *you really*, *really *need to get out of the house and find a life...


just for another point of view: some people aren't blessed with good health and have disabilities that mean they are home bound and tv is their lives. You are fortunate enough to be able bodied so enjoy.

oh and we have over 150 SP on 2 HDtivos  can't put any on hr20 until we get our 110 issue resolved


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

newsposter said:


> just for another point of view: some people aren't blessed with good health and have disabilities that mean they are home bound and tv is their lives. You are fortunate enough to be able bodied so enjoy.
> 
> oh and we have over 150 SP on 2 HDtivos  can't put any on hr20 until we get our 110 issue resolved


Yup are correct in that sense. But you can do other things beside watch TV like other hobbies. To folks like you my apologies. But to the rest....

But I can't even imagine trying to fine 100 shows worth watching let alone 50.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

rrr22777 said:


> Maybe you need to learn how to use the DVR to your advantage. Drinking Bud light on weekends and eating pizza is not my idea of life.. enjoy yours.


But watching TV all day and eating twinkies is?  
Maybe get out of the house every once in a while if you can....


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

newsposter said:


> just for another point of view: some people aren't blessed with good health and have disabilities that mean they are home bound and tv is their lives.


And what did those home bound people do for entertainment before Tivo offered them 120 season passes?

If its that important to you then get two of them. That will get you 100 season passes and 4 tuners for an extra $5 a month.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

For those with tons of season passes. Why not keep a DirecTivo around to record anything in SD and use an HR20 only for HD? That's what I do. Or get 2 (or 3) HR20s. All those extra tuners would come in handy with so many shows.

And I use the DirecTivo as a backup to my HD locals since especially CBS their tower goes down it seems once a week so it's good to have the SD version of shows as an emergency backup.

In our household we have about 35 season passes across 3 DVRs and we find it hard to watch all of that. Of course we might go 2 or 3 days without even turning on a TV but that's just us.

Having said all that, I believe the 50 limit will be addressed in a future update. It has been hinted at anyway.


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## scooby_doo_53 (Jul 19, 2004)

I'll make a comment on the 50 season pass limit.

I live in Denver and was able to get the CBS-HD feed from LA. What this allows me to do do is set up my CBS season passes on both my local channel (antenna) as well as the LA station. The west coast feed starts it's prime time programming at 9:00 Mountain time. Thus, I can schedule other shows on NBC or ABC to record starting at 7:00, and then the CBS shows can record at a later hour. If there isn't a conflict, then it records off of my local antenna (for a better quality picture). 

At any rate, I watch quite a few CBS shows, so basically I have doubled up my season passes because of this quirk.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

As in typical fashion, we have all of the HR20 apologists responding to yet another HR20 user pointing out a design flaw - even to the point of making fun of the OP for even having that many season passes. 

Why would anyone set such a ridiculous limit when there are what - a hundred or two channels on the satellite? It's yet another indication that the HR20 was hastily designed without understanding the market. And yet another reason why the Tivo is consistently rated higher in polls.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

RS4 said:


> As in typical fashion, we have all of the HR20 apologists responding to yet another HR20 user pointing out a design flaw - even to the point of making fun of the OP for even having that many season passes.
> 
> Why would anyone set such a ridiculous limit when there are what - a hundred or two channels on the satellite? It's yet another indication that the HR20 was hastily designed without understanding the market. And yet another reason why the Tivo is consistently rated higher in polls.


Uh, you might want to go back and check, not everyone who was making fun of the OP were HR20 users, there were several who list an HR10 in their signature.


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## technojunkie (Mar 15, 2000)

I'm still holding out for an HD TiVo that can handle DTV. 

There must be something better coming. Why else would they tease us with a software upgrade coming in January? It hardly makes sense if they are trying to convert all of us who made the committment to the HR10-250.

The idea of the 50 season pass limit is an issue. I have 4 different people using the TiVo and 50 just won't cut it. Also, I use some passes for different times of the year. Does D expect you drop passes because the show is into reruns for summer? Look at how HBO changes season all the time. 

And to try to use this forum to tell some how to run their life? Get real. This forum is about technology. 

Spare us the personal commentary.

TiVo rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Tivo rates 10/10 in this household.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

jimb726 said:


> Uh, you might want to go back and check, not everyone who was making fun of the OP were HR20 users, there were several who list an HR10 in their signature.


Uh, you might want to check again. Just because they don't list it, doesn't mean they don't have one.

The op was trying to point out an obvious design flaw to Tivo owners who might be thinking about getting an HR20. Even if folks disagree with the op, they don't need to add the remarks such as gio1269.

We have a box that is supposedly capable of holding huge amounts of videos with all of the add-on drives. Yet, it has some kind of artificial limitation that only makes sense to a group of programmers setting up some function in the software. It's clearly a sign of the box being programmed for certain functionality while the group programming it does not consider the wide-range ramifications of their decisions. So, no one at the top is paying attention to what the various units are doing from an overall point of view.

My guess is that it is a big deal to fix this because the limitation has been known for months.


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## BruceShultes (Oct 2, 2006)

When I added a HR20-700, I just asked D* to run two additional cables for the new box. 

This allows me to use both my original HR10-250 as well. If nothing else it gives me the advantage of four tuners. 

Even when D* switches all HD to MPEG4, I will still be able to use the HR10-250 to record HD OTA. 

I agree that the 50 season pass limit is a pain, but I find as long as I delete the ones for shows that the networks decide to drop from the HR20-700, it is not a problem. It just requires more maintenance of the season pass list.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

krs7272 said:


> Not gonna fly here I have 70+ season passes


Same here. I have 158 season passes all active on each of my Tivos in varying order to pick up conflicts. I hit the 50 limit on the R15 and hadn't even finished with primetime.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> Perhaps the engineers that designed it thought that at 50 season passes you really needed someone to tell you to get a life.





HiDefGator said:


> And what did those home bound people do for entertainment before Tivo offered them 120 season passes?
> 
> If its that important to you then get two of them. That will get you 100 season passes and 4 tuners for an extra $5 a month.


Wow, you don't give up do you? What business is it of yours what "home bound people" like to do for their entertainment? 

If somebody has more than 50 SP's, what gives you the right to tell them they need to "get a life?"

Maybe rather than finding it necessary to spend _your_ valuable time continually defending a DVR on a public message board ...you need to do the same.

Sheesh.


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## Laserfan (Apr 25, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> And what did those home bound people do for entertainment before Tivo offered them 120 season passes?


I can suggest: books, newspapers, magazines, writing, radio, telephone/talk, sewing, computing/internet, and on-and-on just to start.

There's (a lot) more to life, and more things of Value, than TV.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

innocentfreak said:


> Same here. I have 158 season passes all active on each of my Tivos in varying order to pick up conflicts. I hit the 50 limit on the R15 and hadn't even finished with primetime.


I can sum my reaction in two words...day yum.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> As in typical fashion, we have all of the HR20 apologists responding to yet another HR20 user pointing out a design flaw - even to the point of making fun of the OP for even having that many season passes.
> 
> Why would anyone set such a ridiculous limit when there are what - a hundred or two channels on the satellite? It's yet another indication that the HR20 was hastily designed without understanding the market. And yet another reason why the Tivo is consistently rated higher in polls.


Ummm, actually the 50 series link limit is stupid and it should be eliminated. Just because it doesn't effect me doesn't mean it's not a stupid thing. We have had no statement as to why it's there but early on (like a year ago) stability seemed to be hinted at. No idea if that's still an issue, they just haven't gotten around to changing it, or they haven't had enough complaints about it over the past 3 years to bother worrying about it. No matter what the issue is, if 50 isn't enough you should contact DirecTV and complain about it. It's the only way they'll see that it effects enough people and make it a priority to change it.

And please, get off your high horse about the HR20. I can pull several dozens of posts over the past 8 years on this forum with people making fun of people with so many season passes. That attitude has nothing to do with any limits the HR20 may have.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

RS4 said:


> Why would anyone set such a ridiculous limit when there are what - a hundred or two channels on the satellite?


season pass management speed and reduced development time are the most likely reasons I can think of.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

It would seem rather likely that the 50 pass limit will be removed before MPEG4 appears on a DIRECTIVO 

These threads are becoming so fun, all the regular actors playing their regular roles.


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## feldon23 (Mar 13, 2001)

The bad attitudes and rude comments towards people making valid points about the HR20's many flaws (I have one -- although the upgrade about 2 months ago was a big improvement, there are still big questions about stability) are why I have no interest in this forum anymore. The helpful people have left, to be replaced by people whose acerbic wit is a poor substitute for genuine advice. Looks like I got out of this place at the right time.

Not sure why I loaded this forum up again -- nostalgia maybe.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Obviously you revisited because you wanted to heed the "WARNING".


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

feldon23 said:


> The bad attitudes and rude comments towards people making valid points about the HR20's many flaws (I have one -- although the upgrade about 2 months ago was a big improvement, there are still big questions about stability) are why I have no interest in this forum anymore. The helpful people have left, to be replaced by people whose acerbic wit is a poor substitute for genuine advice. Looks like I got out of this place at the right time.
> 
> Not sure why I loaded this forum up again -- nostalgia maybe.


Your prior contributions were valuable and appreciated.

I agree that there seems to be a lot more *****ing and attacking going on here recently. But there are also some very informative threads and many people still interested in learning and helping without being critical.

I personally respect all on-topic opinions expressed, whether I agree or not. I am not dead yet, so I am still learning from all available sources of input.

I do NOT respect the attacks and criticisms of the preferences and values expressed by other folks here.

If I don't like what someone is doing and it does not negatively impact me, I tend to ignore it. If I am impacted, I try to avoid if possible, or request that the part that negatively impacts me be changed so it doesn't, all within reason.

Like anyone else, I occasionally overreact and say things I wish I hadn't. I guess we are seeing a lot of that here from a lot of folks who feel a need to "reform" other folks to their way of thinking. History tells us that behavior is not such a good idea.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> Ummm, actually the 50 series link limit is stupid and it should be eliminated. Just because it doesn't effect me doesn't mean it's not a stupid thing. We have had no statement as to why it's there but early on (like a year ago) stability seemed to be hinted at. No idea if that's still an issue, they just haven't gotten around to changing it, or they haven't had enough complaints about it over the past 3 years to bother worrying about it. No matter what the issue is, if 50 isn't enough you should contact DirecTV and complain about it. It's the only way they'll see that it effects enough people and make it a priority to change it.
> 
> And please, get off your high horse about the HR20. I can pull several dozens of posts over the past 8 years on this forum with people making fun of people with so many season passes. That attitude has nothing to do with any limits the HR20 may have.


Ah, back over on this forum making excuses for your second class box, I see. People on a Tivo forum are entitled to know about the pitfalls of the replacement product from DirecTV. Someone needs to tell them about the polls rating the Tivo higher, because its for sure you apologists won't do it.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

RS4 said:


> As in typical fashion, we have all of the HR20 apologists responding to yet another HR20 user pointing out a design flaw - even to the point of making fun of the OP for even having that many season passes.
> 
> Why would anyone set such a ridiculous limit when there are what - a hundred or two channels on the satellite? It's yet another indication that the HR20 was hastily designed without understanding the market. And yet another reason why the Tivo is consistently rated higher in polls.


It's not a design flaw at all. We all know you hate the HR20.

Now should have a limit? No, why do that unless the TV Exces demanded it.

Now I could list a whole bunch of Tivo and HR10 "flaws" that would be just as long as your HR20 issues.

Look, I was VERY happy with my HR10 before the 6.* updates came a long and destroyed it! Then the HR20 came and IMO is overall a better product. Could it be better? Sure feature wise and reliability for some . But same goes with the HR10


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## kyungkim (Apr 9, 2004)

Just a question, with 50+ passes, how long does it take your hr10's to either update the season pass manager or even schedule a new season pass? Im guessing 5+ minutes for the manager update.

Neither box is perfect, its a matter of picking what flaws to live with.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> Ah, back over on this forum making excuses for your second class box, I see. People on a Tivo forum are entitled to know about the pitfalls of the replacement product from DirecTV. Someone needs to tell them about the polls rating the Tivo higher, because its for sure you apologists won't do it.


I see you still can't read what I posted. I certainly didn't apologize. I said the limit sucked and needs to be fixed. I guess you must have had a glitch in the matrix since I criticized the HR20. Wow, stop the presses!


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

gio1269 said:


> It's not a design flaw at all.
> 
> Now should have a limit? No, why do that unless the TV Exces demanded it.


Flaw = defined as "imperfection; imperfectness"

So it was designed with a SP (SL) limit which, you yourself admit it _should not have _ ...but it's _not_ a design 'flaw,' lol. So what do you call it then, a design oversight?

It is what it is ...I don't understand what the big deal is in defense of this.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Jon J said:


> I can sum my reaction in two words...day yum.


LOL yeah I know I am bad. Luckily some of the shows are ones where I am able to fast forward through such as Mythbusters, Future Weapons, or Dirty Jobs where I only watch the segments that interest me. To think I was actually worse when I didn't have Tivo and would occasionally watch 4 shows at the same time. My friends never understood how I could keep up with the storylines. Then again the same people never understood how I could read 3 books in a weekend.

Scary thing is my main Dtivos are 100 hours each and I have yet to have a show delete on me. Between multitasking and being an insomniac it all works out.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

kyungkim said:


> Just a question, with 50+ passes, how long does it take your hr10's to either update the season pass manager or even schedule a new season pass? Im guessing 5+ minutes for the manager update.
> 
> Neither box is perfect, its a matter of picking what flaws to live with.


As far as schedueling a new season pass it is near instant, as quick as the R-15. 
I couldn't tell you how long it takes my Tivo to update since I only do it once a week on the weekend to adjust for the next week and even then I do it just before I am going to do something else where I wouldn't be watching tv anyway.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

wow what a fast box...once they get my 110 issue hammered out, can't wait to start learning about it. I am not 'using' it now since i think tuner 2 is bad. It's so fast at recording i dont know if i set a SP or not lol.


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## MrBigglesworth (Dec 25, 2002)

rrr22777 said:


> 1. Missed recordings.. unit has missed 4 recordings this week saying something about the recording being cancelled by someone. During some of those cancellations NO ONE WAS HOME!
> 
> 2. 50 season passes. There is a limit on the season passes!!
> 
> Feel free to add to the list but IMHO just the missed recording are enough to go back to the Tivo.


I came from an HR10-250(its in the bedroom) to the HR 20 and have yet to have any missed shows at all after a week of solid use.

Havent hit 50 passes yet, but that does cheese me a bit. Im trying to keep it trimmed as possible to actual shows I watch and not some of the fluff I had previously. Im sure after a while they will raise or eliminate the limit.


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

gio1269 said:


> LMAFO! I was going to say the same thing. If you are watching 50 different show, *you really*, *really *need to get out of the house and find a life...
> 
> So far my HR20-700 has missed ZERO shows since June. The HR10-250 in 1 yrs time; 3!
> 
> ...


Some households don't revolve around the guy hogging the remote and the fancy DVR... My household has five TV watchers who all have different shows. It is EASY to exceed 50 season passes (especially when a bunch of ththem are kid shows) and still have a busy life off the couch...


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Sir_winealot said:


> Flaw = defined as "imperfection; imperfectness"
> 
> So it was designed with a SP (SL) limit which, you yourself admit it _should not have _ ...but it's _not_ a design 'flaw,' lol. So what do you call it then, a design oversight?
> 
> It is what it is ...I don't understand what the big deal is in defense of this.


Again it's not a design flaw. Maybe D* does not think that anyone needs more than 50 SP and I agree.

I saying should there even be a limit? if some someone wants a 1000SP.
Maybe they took that number and figured out that X amount of shows = x hrs + 24 hrs a day + avg HD space and figured most of their users won't need more than 50 before filling up there DVR. I don't know I did not design it. But to call t a flaw is stupid.

Again maybe in reality a 50 limit makes sense?

Look a few "sheep" will follow and use nothing but tivo until they or it dies off.

That's fine. But if you want a HD-DVR form D* the HR20 is it. The GUI is not Tivo but it's a damn good DVR with some better features than tivo. Now do those features negate the loss of Tivo features? that's up to each of us.

Judging by what's left of this board I say the HR20 won.

I been lurking for almost 3 yrs. This board is now about *****in about the HR20, my HR10 died or crapped out.

But it's time for most, most people to move on. Those who only care about OTA and SD will be fine. Hopefully that new update will solve off the issues and glut of problems with your ancient DVR.

Mine is still active for OTA and SD, but it's flaking out and is hardly used.


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## krs7272 (Feb 2, 2002)

feldon23 said:


> The bad attitudes and rude comments towards people making valid points about the HR20's many flaws (I have one -- although the upgrade about 2 months ago was a big improvement, there are still big questions about stability) are why I have no interest in this forum anymore. The helpful people have left, to be replaced by people whose acerbic wit is a poor substitute for genuine advice. Looks like I got out of this place at the right time.
> 
> Not sure why I loaded this forum up again -- nostalgia maybe.


I agree feldon not what it used to be.


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## rrr22777 (Jul 31, 2002)

gio1269 said:


> But watching TV all day and eating twinkies is?
> Maybe get out of the house every once in a while if you can....


Try getting out of your florida retirement community. You just proved my point. No one eats those anymore either.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Ironically, we've just thrown in the towel on our HR20. I've had it with the missed recordings, and the rest of my family hates the thing and pretty much avoids using it. 

I love the fast menus, the quick recording, the mpeg4 HD channels are great ...but I can't tolerate it missing recording SL's (series links).

Granted, it's not like it happens every night: but the every-now-and-then occurance is enough where it's maddening as it seems to miss the programming *I* enjoy the most. It'll go weeks recording beautifully, and then 'boink!' an error occurs and the program isn't there (I see from the other forum that I'm not alone with this).

I'll give D* some (more) time to iron out some of these sporadic problems ...as some folks have absolutely no recording problems and it doesn't miss a show, while others are like me and the unit lacks consistency.

If we had the available cabling we'd keep both the HR20 and HR10 hooked up on the same TV, but it's one or the other unfortunately.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

rrr22777 said:


> Try getting out of your florida retirement community. You just proved my point. No one eats those anymore either.


twinkies - good eating


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

krs7272 said:


> I agree feldon not what it used to be.


It's kind of like watching a soap opera. I come back every day to see everyone argue about the DVRs, I can't help it. I have both and use both a lot and actually like both, but I stay out of the arguments. If I can, without making anyone angry, give my opinion just from my own little perspective. My favorite thing about the HR20 is to be able to put in standby with one touch. Second is being able to delete something while it is still recording with dash dash. With the HR10 my favorite difference is "wish list". I love the Tivo wish list. The second thing I like best about the Tivo is the "search" functions. If I had a choice between the two it would be a tough call but I would lean towards Tivo. Since I don't have a choice and I must stay with D* for Sunday Ticket, I'm happy using the HR20. I use 3 HR20s and 2 HR10s.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

rrr22777 said:


> Try getting out of your florida retirement community. You just proved my point. No one eats those anymore either.


Yes, I am semi-retired at the ripe old age of 38! I decided to be a semi-stay at home Dad. 

You MADE my point on not getting out enough. Twinkies are back dude! But now they are being DEEP FRIED.  . Are you in a cave with that HR10?

BTW, I hate those!


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Sir_winealot said:


> Ironically, we've just thrown in the towel on our HR20. I've had it with the missed recordings, and the rest of my family hates the thing and pretty much avoids using it.
> 
> I love the fast menus, the quick recording, the mpeg4 HD channels are great ...but I can't tolerate it missing recording SL's (series links).
> 
> ...


Why not ask for another HR20 to be sent? Yes, I heard of these missing programs but mine has not. It's been perfect except for the DD Optical port dying.

My HR10 grated only missed maybe 3 shoes in almost 2 yrs.

If the HR20 NEVER missed a show, would you find it a quality replacement?

The wife and kids I am sure will adjust. My wife hated it at first as well because she had to learn everything all over. Now she prefers it in most respects.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

joed32 said:


> It's kind of like watching a soap opera. I come back every day to see everyone argue about the DVRs, I can't help it. I have both and use both a lot and actually like both, but I stay out of the arguments. If I can, without making anyone angry, give my opinion just from my own little perspective. My favorite thing about the HR20 is to be able to put in standby with one touch. Second is being able to delete something while it is still recording with dash dash. With the HR10 my favorite difference is "wish list". I love the Tivo wish list. The second thing I like best about the Tivo is the "search" functions. If I had a choice between the two it would be a tough call but I would lean towards Tivo. Since I don't have a choice and I must stay with D* for Sunday Ticket, I'm happy using the HR20. I use 3 HR20s and 2 HR10s.


I agree. The 3 things I miss about the HR10 is the same as you and the dual live buffers.

D* can easily add these to the HR20 and I think thy might. Or something similar to the WL.

With the HR20 networking capabilities and on-demand coming it's a sweet box.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

gio1269 said:


> Why not ask for another HR20 to be sent? Yes, I heard of these missing programs but mine has not. It's been perfect except for the DD Optical port dying.
> 
> My HR10 grated only missed maybe 3 shoes in almost 2 yrs.
> 
> ...


We've gone through 4 HR20 replacements now ...I'm not gonna get another replacement, as it's not a hardware problem.

There are some things I don't like about the HR20 (slow channel changing, the CIR bug, no DLB) but if it never missed a show (my major beef), yes I'd think of it as a quality replacement ...without a doubt.

But it's been missing shows for about 14 months now (although much fewer than in the beginning).



gio1269 said:


> I agree. The 3 things I miss about the HR10 is the same as you and the dual live buffers.
> 
> D* can easily add these to the HR20 and I think thy might. Or something similar to the WL.


I don't think DLB's will _ever _ be added ....this has been stated on the other forum.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

to lighten this up, here's a joke for you

When i got the hr20 i had/have 110 problems. I wanted to see if i could switch tuners to see if it was on the other tuner. But I couldnt figure out how to switch tuners like i did on tivo, pressing the live button. I looked at the shortcut pdf on dbs and even thumbed thru the manual

then it dawned on me what they meant by dual buffers being missing. I guess you cant switch between tuners even to test them out and there is no way to tell what tuner you are on (though that's the same with tivo)


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

You can switch tuners by changing channels 3 times then you will be on the other tuner.


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## hybucket (Nov 26, 2004)

I too think the 50 program limit is absurd. This is the reply from DirecTV CSR:

*With regard to the season pass limit of an HR20, as of this time we don't have any updates yet on its capacity, however, we are working on this issue right now.*

So that's good news, I guess...assuming this guy/girl has a clue.


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## Cruzan (Dec 21, 2001)

hybucket said:


> I too think the 50 program limit is absurd. This is the reply from DirecTV CSR:
> 
> *With regard to the season pass limit of an HR20, as of this time we don't have any updates yet on its capacity, however, we are working on this issue right now.*
> 
> So that's good news, I guess...assuming this guy/girl has a clue.


Yes, the 50-pass limit is a showstopper for me, particularly with lack of suggestions. I have about 70, and not being able to set'em and forget'em will keep me from the HR20 until that's addressed, or if Tivo arrives on Comcast's own box in my area I'll go there.

Egocentrism is defined as an inability to see the world through another's eyes. The good news here is that we only have to read Gio's posts - we don't have to live with him.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Cruzan said:


> Egocentrism is defined as an inability to see the world through another's eyes. The good news here is that we only have to read Gio's posts - we don't have to live with him.


But yet you only want to see through your Tivo based eyes and nothing else. You been drinking "Tivo Kool-Aid" much to long. What a tool....


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

forget about the 50 for now...my wife cant even get her soap series link to record. even set to repeats, it just wouldnt pick up next weeks showings at all. 

wonderful for trying to resolve conflicts a week out once we get this machine running full speed


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

gio1269 said:


> Again it's not a design flaw. Maybe D* does not think that anyone needs more than 50 SP and I agree.
> 
> I saying should there even be a limit? if some someone wants a 1000SP.
> Maybe they took that number and figured out that X amount of shows = x hrs + 24 hrs a day + avg HD space and figured most of their users won't need more than 50 before filling up there DVR. I don't know I did not design it. But to call t a flaw is stupid.
> ...


If they really applied anything like the logical assumptions you are speculating on, they were making some pretty poor assumptions that also contradicted the use data that would have been available to them. Which is illogical or just dumb. Two things in particular:

1. The DVR is not a personal media device, like an iPod, it is a household media device. So it needs to have capacity to handle programming needs for multiple people. The 50 limit may sound like a lot but how does 10 sound as a limit? That's how many programs you would be able to have in my household if we were all forced into a fair quota distribution.

2. One of the great benefits of a DVR is deferred viewing, not just by hours or a day but as long as you want. In our household we have 3-tiers of shows. Tier 1 are shows we will typically watch the same week on a slightly deferred basis of a few days at most. Tier 2 are shows we save up in bulk to watch when all the other shows go on holiday or summer hiatus or repeats. And Tier 3 are shows we will probably never watch and allow to auto-delete but for which we have there just in case we (particularly the kids) are in the mood or need to kill time. We have well over 50 SP's on the 10-250, but about 20 of them are kids shows. The kids only get to watch a limited amount of TV, but these represent the subset of shows we have blessed that they get to pick among. On a fraction get watched before being overridden. OUr particular 3 Tiers may be unique, but the parttern of use is not -- i.e. people are recording more than they watch. That's one of the main benefits -- the ability to record a subset of the TV universe to make the need for live TV almost a non-issue. So doing the math on how many hours someone can watch a week is completely at odds with this.

Now was there some complex technical reason D* needed to create a 50 limit? I have no idea. But to defend it as a logical feature limitation unrelated to a technical one is really silly. I would hope they put more thought into it than that.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

not to belittle your need for 50+, if you need them then you need them.

I got around it by having multiple HD20's - also gives you additional buffers 

Before I went to the HD DVR's, my wife had her own Tivo and the rest of the family (me) had the other two.

Now we have units that are used to record specific channels (CBS and NBC, ABC and Fox, others)


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

Jebberwocky! said:


> not to belittle your need for 50+, if you need them then you need them.
> 
> I got around it by having multiple HD20's - also gives you additional buffers
> 
> ...


That is awesome to have so many units... It definitely would be nice.

But that's not practical for most people, in terms of the additional monthly fees or the physical equipment costs...

BTW, how do you split all the inputs into your TV? Are you using a splitter or different inputs? I haven't seen too many TV's with enough inputs to handel 3 decoder boxes plus all the other stuff (DVD, game consoles, etc.) all using HDMI or component.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

newsposter said:


> forget about the 50 for now...my wife cant even get her soap series link to record. even set to repeats, it just wouldnt pick up next weeks showings at all.
> 
> wonderful for trying to resolve conflicts a week out once we get this machine running full speed


Just to ask, did you just setup the series link and then checked the ToDo list right away? The episode you created the series link on should appear right away but just an FYI that it can take up to a day for the rest of the episodes that qualify to show up as it does that as background tasks later. That's why it's done in an instant when adding a new series link or reordering them vs. the Tivo which does the ToDo list rebuilt right away and thus you have the "please wait" on screen for a while.

And if none of that applies, please go to DBSTalk and report your issue so it can be logged.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Citivas said:


> BTW, how do you split all the inputs into your TV? Are you using a splitter or different inputs? I haven't seen too many TV's with enough inputs to handel 3 decoder boxes plus all the other stuff (DVD, game consoles, etc.) all using HDMI or component.


Probably an A/V receiver. Most will do either component or HDMI switching. I can plug 5 component devices into my A/V receiver which then all goes via one component cable to a single input on the TV. This leaves me with a 2nd input on the TV so in total I could have 6 component devices hooked up to 1 TV (it's old enough it doesn't have DVI let alone an HDMI connection).


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

I have to ask, out of curiousity, of those that are complaining about the HR20 missing recordings, do you ever put the unit into standby or is it 'on' 24x7 for you?

Seriously, I'd like to know if perhaps the issue with the missed recordings is that the unit hasn't had time to catch up on background processes, index building, or other things that might happen if the unit spends more time in stand-by and less time thinking it is actively being used?

I would add one note on the HR20 and missed recordings -- I believe that up to, and including the current national release for the boxes there had been a problem with manual recordings being missed. I set up a recurring recording for Sunday nites, 8pm (east coast time) for FOX and yet the recordings weren't happening for me (if you haven't figured it out, that would be a recording of The Simpsons, which otherwise records all the friggin' time, on both the TiVo boxes and non-Tivo boxes thanks to crummy guide data supplied by Tribune and company  ). On the newest CE releases these manual recordings have been happening like they should, so apparently something that was broken was found and fixed along the way.

Hopefully the newest CE versions will hit national release soon and then DirecTV can get back to addressing other issues -- like the low number of series link/season pass issue, and perhaps the DLB issue.


Meanwhile, on the TiVo side, the HR10 that my wife uses in the living room has been much worse lately about missing recordings for unexplainable reasons. The box certainly doesn't owe me anything as it worked well for my time, and it works pretty well as an SD recording device *most of the time*, but it is not perfect and does have plenty of issues. Those issues could be all DirecTV's fault, or they could be TiVo's fault, or a combo of the two. All I know is that the issues with that box have been frustrating my wife and in turn me because I have to hear about it when the box doesn't work.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

Citivas said:


> That is awesome to have so many units... It definitely would be nice.
> 
> But that's not practical for most people, in terms of the additional monthly fees or the physical equipment costs...
> 
> BTW, how do you split all the inputs into your TV? Are you using a splitter or different inputs? I haven't seen too many TV's with enough inputs to handel 3 decoder boxes plus all the other stuff (DVD, game consoles, etc.) all using HDMI or component.


monthly fees are not much, I got the three units for 19.95 (shipping)

Previously I had a TV with only 1 input for HDTV - I used a switch that was for my XBox360 that had 4 component inputs and 1 output. It had a remote so I was able to incorporate it into my remote to switch automatically.

I recently bouoght a new TV that has 4 HDMI inputs (52" Visio LCD 1080p) so I am using three of the inputs for my recorders and one of the two component inputs for the 360. Real sweet TV with an amazing picture.

I have 5 cables coming from my basement switch so only 2 of my HD20's have dual turners.


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

rrr22777 said:


> I am a long time Tivo user who took the plunge for the HR20 because of the new HD channels available only on the HR20 (Directv DVR). I am just finding out what a big mistake that was!! So before you take the plunge consider this:
> 
> 1. Missed recordings.. unit has missed 4 recordings this week saying something about the recording being cancelled by someone. During some of those cancellations NO ONE WAS HOME!
> 
> ...


I have 2 HR20-700s. Recordings are solid, no problems. If you're missing recordings I guessing there is something goofy in your install.

2. 50 is plenty for me, with as fast as this thing is, you can delete and readd season passes easily 2 times a year for summer vs fall shows.


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## Daniel (Feb 25, 2001)

Fahtrim said:


> 2. 50 is plenty for me, with as fast as this thing is, you can delete and readd season passes easily 2 times a year for summer vs fall shows.


But why should you have to? I have a DVR for that, it's called a TiVo. You should get one. 

That being said, 50 season pass limit is a deal breaker in my house. Between the three TiVos we have over 200 season passes. We never watch live TV. If we _might _want to watch something, it gets recorded.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Daniel said:


> But why should you have to? .


You know the answer to that right ?? To get the new HD channels, just like you had to buy a new TV that worked with HD or a new fangled VCR that would play DVD's etc. etc.

I realize it's not over 200 but if you had 3 HR20's you'd be able to get 150 season passes :up:

As I've said before, I'll bet the 50 limit is removed from DirecTV MPEG4 appears on a TIVO.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

JohnB1000 said:


> You know the answer to that right ?? To get the new HD channels, just like you had to buy a new TV that worked with HD or a new fangled VCR that would play DVD's etc. etc.


You can keep your new channels. This TivoHD is good to go and needs no excuse.

Like a sip of premium wine, a little goes a long way here.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

gio1269 said:


> Again it's not a design flaw. Maybe D* does not think that anyone needs more than 50 SP and I agree.


Well then, you'd _both_ be wrong as evidenced by people who have the need for more than 50 SP's.


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## Rigelian (May 21, 2003)

I don't know if the 50 SP are a design flaw because I don't know what the trade offs would be if they designed the HR20's to exceed them. Meaning, given that I top out at 29 SP, any trade off to exceed the 50 SP limit would be superflous. For example, if the lack of a 50 SP limit on the HR10 is a cause of the long delay in reordering SPs, I would consider it a wise design decision. Others, who have a need for more than 50 SPs may legitimately reach a different conclusion.

However, not knowing what design considerations went into limiting the SPs to 50 I don't know if anyone here has sufficient information to definitively state that this is a design flaw.

I suspect that if anyone were to seriously address the issue they would first start off with the percentage of Directv users who exceeded 50sp on the HR10s in their old setups. Starting with that base, one might be in a better position to address the question.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Sir_winealot said:


> Well then, you'd _both_ be wrong as evidenced by people who have the need for more than 50 SP's.


It's also evidence that people need to others things besides watch TV.  My god, get a hobby or something....


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bdowell said:


> I have to ask, out of curiousity, of those that are complaining about the HR20 missing recordings, do you ever put the unit into standby or is it 'on' 24x7 for you?
> 
> Seriously, I'd like to know if perhaps the issue with the missed recordings is that the unit hasn't had time to catch up on background processes, index building, or other things that might happen if the unit spends more time in stand-by and less time thinking it is actively being used?...


 "Standby" only does a few things, and PVRs do not behave significantly different whether in standby or not. About the only differences other than muting of the video and audio and front panel lights, is that the HDD might spin down on occasion. It will still spin up for recordings, downloads, suggestions, etc., regardless. Since they don't put a lot of ram in these things, most functions such as indexing page from the HDD as well. Bottom line, placing it in standby won't really affect how it operates, since it spins up the HDD whenever it gets the urge, standby or not.

"Standby" might be a little greener. The old Replays were rated at 21 watts in standby and 25 watts not in standby. Theories balancing spin up/ spin down vs. constant spinning abound, but most agree that continuous spin up is likely better for HDD life than constantly spinning up/down.

A PVR prioritizes its tasks, and placing it in standby will not likely affect that.

Regarding missed or spontaneously deleted recordings, Tivo has a significantly-better track record than the HR20, the R15's, and the DISH and cable PVRs, but there are still reports on occasion. All I know is that I miss one or two recordings a year with Tivo (out of about 1000) while I missed 15-20 a year with anything else (except Replay) including 3 different DISH models. Reports seem to bear that out, there are lots of reports of non-Tivo PVRs losing (or even deleting after the fact) recordings, but never many with Tivo.

What seems interesting about the missed recordings is that many never experience them, while some do, for all PVRs. This makes me wonder if it is not aggravated by unstable or dirty power. Some folks get better local power than others, and it would be interesting to see if those with better power have better results. Regardless, I think a UPS might help in any case. Also, when companies alpha-test equipment, it is usually under conditions that include very stable commercial UPS-quality power, so maybe the problem never comes up and seems insignificant for them, but once they get in somebody's media room in an area with questionable power, things don't go as well.

It might be a credible theory. Thing is, it is a lot easier to just get a UPS than it is to try to prove or disprove it.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

gio1269 said:


> It's also evidence that people need to others things besides watch TV.  My god, get a hobby or something....


I always love when people say that. Is it that tough to believe people can watch more TV than you and still do other things? Do you say the same thing to people who read more books than you? Listen to more music than you? Or is it just because it is TV?


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> Just to ask, did you just setup the series link and then checked the ToDo list right away? .


I checked it a few hours after my wife set it. Then the next day it was ok. However the delay is unnerving. I want to immediately know if i have a conflict, not have to monitor the history list every day( assuming that unrecorded will show up there?)

My wife already told me she'd prefer to wait 3 min for a recording (tivo) and decide if the conflicted program was more important or not rather than babysit the machine.

however I guess once you have you SLs setup, and you wait a few days, all should be well. It's just when you set one up you have issues.


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## daperlman (Jan 25, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> As far as schedueling a new season pass it is near instant, as quick as the R-15.
> I couldn't tell you how long it takes my Tivo to update since I only do it once a week on the weekend to adjust for the next week and even then I do it just before I am going to do something else where I wouldn't be watching tv anyway.


This is one of the advantages of the HR20 another is using the guide while watching recordings. One other great thing about it - it does SD and HD simultaneously (unlike the HR10-250).

However, I have to disagree with people who don't think that there are serious problems with the hardware, software and support. I switched on 9/2 and Tuesday I got my third unit (#1 dead tuner, #2 completely failed to encode any signal). Now that I have one that works... I can say that the series/season pass feature is far less sophisticated. For example let's say you are watching a ball game and it asks if you want to record The Shield ep1 and you say no. It will not figure out ever record that ep unless you reschedule manually. I think that is a serious flaw.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

newsposter said:


> I checked it a few hours after my wife set it. Then the next day it was ok. However the delay is unnerving. I want to immediately know if i have a conflict, not have to monitor the history list every day( assuming that unrecorded will show up there?)
> 
> My wife already told me she'd prefer to wait 3 min for a recording (tivo) and decide if the conflicted program was more important or not rather than babysit the machine.
> 
> however I guess once you have you SLs setup, and you wait a few days, all should be well. It's just when you set one up you have issues.


Yep, that was it then. Just have to wait a day. Took me about a month to get used to it, now I never even give it a second thought. It's all what you are used to.

As for conflicts, they will show up right in your ToDo list. For example over the summer I always had a triple conflict Tuesday nights. So in the ToDo list it would still list all 3 programs but the lowest priority would have a big red "X" next to it to indicate it won't record. And I'd see the later showing that evening also listed as it was picking that one up. Nice feature actually to quickly see conflicts.


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## daperlman (Jan 25, 2002)

gio1269 said:


> Again it's not a design flaw. Maybe D* does not think that anyone needs more than 50 SP and I agree.


You really think that? I agree that 50 is a lot for one season or even year of TV.... but after a few (including cancelled shows by then) they pile up.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

bdowell said:


> I have to ask, out of curiousity, of those that are complaining about the HR20 missing recordings, do you ever put the unit into standby or is it 'on' 24x7 for you?
> 
> Seriously, I'd like to know if perhaps the issue with the missed recordings is that the unit hasn't had time to catch up on background processes, index building, or other things that might happen if the unit spends more time in stand-by and less time thinking it is actively being used?


Actually putting the HR20 into standby actually tells it to start doing it's background processes right away. So going into standby will quicken ToDo list population and search indexing and so forth. Other then that standby just does the standard "kill the lights and outputs" thing.

The missing recordings seems to be guide data related. Either bad guide data that the HR20 isn't processing correctly or the way the HR20 handles guide data updates (or both). It's not all that widespread and it mostly effects kids programming on channels like Toon and Disney. I personally haven't missed anything but then I'm not recording the troubled shows. The CE from two weeks ago added a bunch of logging codes to the history in an attempt to track down the exact cause and last week's CE included a number of updates and fixes and from what I've seen reports are down of any missed recordings with that CE. DirecTV is very active in trying to snuff this problem out and is why it's been a long time since the last national release. The more people that report their problems on DBSTalk the more data points DirecTV has to go on. DirecTV watches and listens over there, they really do.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

daperlman said:


> This is one of the advantages of the HR20 another is using the guide while watching recordings. One other great thing about it - it does SD and HD simultaneously (unlike the HR10-250).
> 
> However, I have to disagree with people who don't think that there are serious problems with the hardware, software and support. I switched on 9/2 and Tuesday I got my third unit (#1 dead tuner, #2 completely failed to encode any signal). Now that I have one that works... I can say that the series/season pass feature is far less sophisticated. For example let's say you are watching a ball game and it asks if you want to record The Shield ep1 and you say no. It will not figure out ever record that ep unless you reschedule manually. I think that is a serious flaw.


(I think you mean "decode", but we get the idea)

While I'm splitting hairs  I'm not sure that's a flaw, but I certainly feel comfortable characterizing it as a shortcoming, and is only one of the many reasons I have been known to justify using the term "user-hostile" when describing the HR20. Compared to what we expect, thanks to Tivo's brilliant implementation of recording priorities, anything less now seems an awful lot like a flaw, even if that's actually how they designed it, and what they had in mind.

To each his own, but I just don't get why folks might like watching programs while doing PVR housekeeping chores. Although we all are increasingly multitaskers I either want to watch full-screen uninterrupted, or not at all. Probably the same reason I hate PIP and video on an iPod.

So PIP in the EPG is just not a feature I need or will ever want. Had it with DISH and was annoyed by it. Sometimes going to the menus is a good way to mute annoying audio from programs you're not watching. Add a feature where I still get video and audio in the menus, and I am going to cry foul and scream "downgrade".


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## daperlman (Jan 25, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> To each his own, but I just don't get why folks might like watching programs while doing PVR housekeeping chores. Although we all are increasingly multitaskers I either want to watch full-screen uninterrupted, or not at all. Probably the same reason I hate PIP and video on an iPod.
> 
> So PIP in the EPG is just not a feature I need or will ever want. Had it with DISH and was annoyed by it. Sometimes going to the menus is a good way to mute annoying audio from programs you're not watching. Add a feature where I still get video and audio in the menus, and I am going to cry foul and scream "downgrade".


I personally like to pick shows while watching recordings especially during a new season with a new unit - but I can respect your POV


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

TyroneShoes said:


> "Standby" only does a few things, and PVRs do not behave significantly different whether in standby or not. About the only differences other than muting of the video and audio and front panel lights, is that the HDD might spin down on occasion. It will still spin up for recordings, downloads, suggestions, etc., regardless. Since they don't put a lot of ram in these things, most functions such as indexing page from the HDD as well. Bottom line, placing it in standby won't really affect how it operates, since it spins up the HDD whenever it gets the urge, standby or not.
> 
> "Standby" might be a little greener. The old Replays were rated at 21 watts in standby and 25 watts not in standby. Theories balancing spin up/ spin down vs. constant spinning abound, but most agree that continuous spin up is likely better for HDD life than constantly spinning up/down.
> 
> ...


You might be on to something here. My HR0 was never plugged into a UPS. I missed a few recordings. Yes and few cam during a minor power surge/out. Even if 1 sec the HR20 would shut down.

Once I got my HR20, I installed a huge UPS that I had lying around. I have now never missed a recording.

The HR10 did go through a Monster Bar Surge Protector that is supposed to clean that "dirty power" but I am not sure about that.

Maybe people who are missing recordings should try it.

Look the point is BOTH units have issues. I am just look at this board over the years. I understand the whole GUI difference and that's fine. Some Tivo die hards will never switch even though in the big picture of things it does not really matter.

But the way the HR20 gets bashed here is really sad and stupid. IMO it's a very nice machine. Not perfect, but neither was the HR10. I guess we need to go back to a VCR and remember how reliable those things were


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Rigelian said:


> For example, if the lack of a 50 SP limit on the HR10 is a cause of the long delay in reordering SPs, I would consider it a wise design decision. .


tivo lags way before 50 SP  No one can deny that.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

gio1269 said:


> But the way the HR20 gets bashed here is really sad and stupid. IMO it's a very nice machine. Not perfect, but neither was the HR10. I guess we need to go back to a VCR and remember how reliable those things were


The really sad thing is that you folks are constantly badgering people who say they love the Tivo and here we are on the Tivo forum - not the HR20 forum. The HR20 is clearly not liked by Tivo users as much as a Tivo. You guys need to come to grips that while you settled for second best according to the ratings, the rest of us prefer the Tivo.

Here you are making excuses for a serious design flaw. The HR20 deserves to get bashed because it was not well thought out, even though dvrs have been around for years. Instead we see a company struggling with a replacement because the company they hired to replace Tivo failed miserably. They then decided to do the development in house in a hurry and it clearly shows.

As for the design limit of 50 sp - think about it. What is the purpose of a dvr - to record programs and play them back when the user requests them. How do recordings get on the dvr - Season passes, manually, recording the current program, wishlists and suggestions - the last 2 at least on the Tivo.

I am a lot like Citivas in that I do not ever watch live tv (including sports and the news). I don't like putting up with the same commercial being shown over and over, and I also don't care about injury timeouts, or what's coming up on the next segment of the local news. (Tivo has truly changed the way I view TV.) So, we too have a set of programs that are watched soon after the broadcast - like football, a second tier that we like to watch as a series, and then a third group of shows that might be interesting if I have a few minutes and don't want to read.

So, about once every six months, I bring up the channel guide for channels that I enjoy, to see what is new. I will then select the season passes for shows that seem interesting. I just added about 20 over the weekend to go along with the 50 or so that are already there. I also watch a lot of the suggestions that the Tivo finds. I also clean up my sp list, but the point is that I want the variety to be there, and I don't have to spend much time managing lists.

DirecTV has come out with a dvr into a market where dvrs have been around for several years. Yet, they didn't bother to understand how people use the dvr or didn't have the foresight to think much beyond live TV. Citivas and I present two normal ways to use a dvr, but DirecTV would severely restrict us with the HR20.

A dvr can now have tons of recording space, but yet DirecTV didn't have the foresight to allow its customers to use one of the standard (i.e. sp) methods to take advantage of it. Instead, the HR20 users are having to manage around a design flaw.

DirecTV took a giant step backwards by setting up this restriction. I'm sure in their programmers minds, there was a need (let's hope they didn't just say 'well 50 sounds good'). But this is a case when the programmers should have been overridden by the design team. So yet once again, we see a product that has become second-rated to the Tivo even though it is much newer, just because they couldn't bother to find out how people use the current best-of-the-line product.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

RS4 said:


> The really sad thing is that you folks are constantly badgering people who say they love the Tivo and here we are on the Tivo forum - not the HR20 forum. The HR20 is clearly not liked by Tivo users as much as a Tivo. You guys need to come to grips that while you settled for second best according to the ratings, the rest of us prefer the Tivo.


When you generalize you generally make mistakes.

I am a TiVo user and while I like the TiVo I am much more happy with the performance of my HR20.

You are just as guilty, if not far more so, of constantly badgering people that say that they are happy with the HR20. Try looking in the mirror a bit.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

Once I hacked my Sony T60 and put in the fast hard drive, it was lightning fast but still took sometimes many minutes before the Season Pass Manager would respond after a change.

I found that by keeping by Season Passes to 40 or so the response time is at worst just a few of minutes. When I cleaned up I found that many were for old shows no longer even broadcast.

So at least for me, although I can have more than 40 Season Passes in my TiVo, it is just not worth it to me. Now I am down to 20. There just are not that many shows worth watching in SD.

For those with 70 or 100 Season Passes, how long does it take if you make a change in the Season Pass Manager?

- Craig


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bdowell said:


> When you generalize you generally make mistakes.
> 
> I am a TiVo user and while I like the TiVo I am much more happy with the performance of my HR20.
> 
> You are just as guilty, if not far more so, of constantly badgering people that say that they are happy with the HR20. Try looking in the mirror a bit.


Sorry - just reporting the facts. 

From the majority:

Would you trade?

If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700?

HR20 ready for prime time?


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## kyungkim (Apr 9, 2004)

> The really sad thing is that you folks are constantly badgering people who say they love the Tivo and here we are on the Tivo forum - not the HR20 forum. The HR20 is clearly not liked by Tivo users as much as a Tivo. You guys need to come to grips that while you settled for second best according to the ratings, the rest of us prefer the Tivo.


I've owned my directivo since 2002 and bought both my hr10's at launch. Its not like any of us went out of our way to "choose" the hr20. But it was a no brainer on giving up my last hr10. Slightlty better ui vs a sh1t ton of new hd content...

There are valid issues with the hr20, as there are issues with the hr10. The 50 sp limit is simply not one of them. 
Im convinced the hr10 was not designed to handle more than even 40 SPs. Not only does it make managing a 10minute+ ordeal, but it slows down even simple recording tasks.

I experienced this all the time with my 2 tivos, the liv rm unit which was packed with SPs vs the bedroom one which didnt have as many. The bedroom tivo was always faster and snappier when it came to doing simple on the spot recordings, where the other one had to think long and hard before throwing in an extra recording task.

No doubt that the hr10 at what 4 years old is still the superior dvr. But some of these complaints of the hr20 make no sense to me. Sometimes I wonder if you guys are talking about the same device.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

The polls are popping up everywhere!

Here is the other poll to consider...

This month there was a Poll of HR20 users that asked: Would you Recommend the HR20 to a Freind?

Of 767 HR20 users: 92% said "Yes", they would recommend the HR20 to a friend.

Similarly, if you surveyed people I bet more would prefer eating a hamburger to eating a salad. I also bet most would recommend eating a salad.

- Craig


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

milominderbinder said:


> For those with 70 or 100 Season Passes, how long does it take if you make a change in the Season Pass Manager?
> 
> - Craig


i think my one machine has 130 passes (have to check at home), definitely has more than 100. It takes no more than 2-5 minutes, and sometimes less, to reorder. 6.x definitely speeded this up and i do love that you can use the skip button to go to the top/bottom quickly.

the 3.1 machine is slower and has maybe 50+ on it. You cant go easily top to bottom and takes longer if you are on an HD channel.

I will take this wait anyday to find out if i have a conflict "immediately" rather than wait a day for series link to update.

But as was pointed out to me, you supposedly get used to babysitting new SL's for a day before adding anything else. However as a newbie just starting to add SL's, this is a potentially serious drawback at least short term with pass management. Thankfully the HR20 will only be used for HD stuff that the HDtivos cannot pick up (or in the event i need a 5th tuner).


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

newsposter said:


> It takes no more than 2-5 minutes, and sometimes less, to reorder.


I would trade virtually any downside to not have to wait 2-5 minutes with no picture and no sound while my season passes are resorted. That drove me nuts when i was using my Tivo's.

I might add that I also love having a display of how much free space is left on my drive. How many times do Tivo users have to ask for that feature before Tivo gives in and gives customers what they want?


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

milominderbinder said:


> Once I hacked my Sony T60 and put in the fast hard drive, it was lightning fast but still took sometimes many minutes before the Season Pass Manager would respond after a change.
> 
> I found that by keeping by Season Passes to 40 or so the response time is at worst just a few of minutes. When I cleaned up I found that many were for old shows no longer even broadcast.
> 
> ...


You can make all the changes without any delay. The delay is only when you leave the Season Pass manager, so just be careful not to mix changing the recording options of a show in the middle of your sorting exercise. Deleting shows usually is fast too. I have way over 50 SP's and when I do a major refresh of the season passes and re-sort, the longest it has ever taken was 3 minutes. I do something else then come back. Since I only have to do it that once every now and then, no big deal. Certainly not as big a deal as having a 50 limit for my family of 5 or as some others have suggested, buying and maintaining 3 separate units on the same TV and having to invest in a whole new setup to house and split or route the signal for them all, etc...


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> I would trade virtually any downside to not have to wait 2-5 minutes with no picture and no sound while my season passes are resorted. That drove me nuts when i was using my Tivo's.
> 
> I might add that I also love having a display of how much free space is left on my drive. How many times do Tivo users have to ask for that feature before Tivo gives in and gives customers what they want?


This is an issue for me maybe 6 times a year, versus the daily impact of having a limit on the # of season passes that would reduce every member of my households to 10 shows or less, inclusive of those they are recording only as "maybe" shows to watch or saving up for the Summer, etc.

Its crazy to say that a delay that isn't a part of a users typical daily behavior is worth trading off a core functionality issue. But I guess if you have a small family or a lot of money to spend on a bunch of machines it wouldn't matter to you...


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> I would trade virtually any downside to not have to wait 2-5 minutes with no picture and no sound while my season passes are resorted. That drove me nuts when i was using my Tivo's.
> 
> I might add that I also love having a display of how much free space is left on my drive. How many times do Tivo users have to ask for that feature before Tivo gives in and gives customers what they want?


I guess i have the luxury of 2 HDtivos and dont reorder until i know i want to watch the other tivo.

free space yes! But using suggestions i'm 85% happy with them as a measure. The only thing i cant figure out is why my 6.x machine wont record suggestions as quickly as my 3.1 machine, even when there is tons of free space and i have manually thumbed up many many recurring programs with 3 thumbs


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## kyungkim (Apr 9, 2004)

Please stop giving out these rosy guesstimates. If you can provied a firm sp number with a firm update time I'd be inclined to believe these short time frames.

I know I've waited more than 10 minutes for an update. How do I know? I woke up late one day, had to change a sp order that morning and took a shower. Came back 10 min later and it was STILL updating.

Even with a family of 8 it cant possibly be a big deal. Wouldn't there be SOME overlap in the programs that even grandma and junior watch on a single tv set? With that many sps, the number of conflicts would limit the sheer quanity thats recorded anyway. 
Is there enuff hours in a day/week for a family of 5 to watch/enjoy that stuff in a given week, on one tv?? For those with 130+, Im willing to bet many many of those contained canceled shows, or things taken out of syndication.

Look i loved my tivo and I miss it, I long for my dlb whenever sunday rolls around. 

But please, touting the unlimited sp on the tivo as a feature? No dice, especially when it adds to the ridiculous lag on the machine.


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## Rigelian (May 21, 2003)

RS4 said:


> Sorry - just reporting the facts.
> 
> From the majority:
> 
> ...


It's the wrong question. You're comparing a hypothetical DVR with a real one. Meaning there is no such thing as a HR10-250 that can record the new Directv channels. A more honest comparison is to ask straight up, do you prefer the HR20s or the HR10s.

Another reason why your comparison makes little sense is that it eliminates any of the technological challenges (and bugs therein) that may or may not come from updating the old Tivos to the new format.

In addition, and this is a big problem, the people who frequent these forums aren't exactly what I call a representative sample of people who use DVRs. It's truly a poor base for making such declarative statements.


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## Rigelian (May 21, 2003)

RS4 said:


> Here you are making excuses for a serious design flaw. The HR20 deserves to get bashed because it was not well thought out, even though dvrs have been around for years. Instead we see a company struggling with a replacement because the company they hired to replace Tivo failed miserably. They then decided to do the development in house in a hurry and it clearly shows.
> 
> As for the design limit of 50 sp - think about it. What is the purpose of a dvr - to record programs and play them back when the user requests them. How do recordings get on the dvr - Season passes, manually, recording the current program, wishlists and suggestions - the last 2 at least on the Tivo.


Okay RS4, let me ask you a question. If the 50 sp limit is a serious design flaw, what would you call the lengthy time it takes a HR10 to reorder season passes? Let me add, given that I'm somewhere south of 50 sp, which would look like a more serious design flaw for me?

Another question, of HR10 users, what is the precentage of users that have more than 50 sp on a single unit?

Before calling something serious, it's probably best to figure out the percentage of users being impacted by the decision.


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## hybucket (Nov 26, 2004)

Rigelian said:


> Okay RS4, let me ask you a question. If the 50 sp limit is a serious design flaw, what would you call the lengthy time it takes a HR10 to reorder season passes? Let me add, given that I'm somewhere south of 50 sp, which would look like a more serious design flaw for me?
> 
> Another question, of HR10 users, what is the percentage of users that have more than 50 sp on a single unit?
> 
> Before calling something serious, it's probably best to figure out the percentage of users being impacted by the decision.


Since the only way, it would seem, to figure out the true percentage of users impacted by any decision made by D* would be for D* to call all their customers and ask them, as this forum certainly is not representative of their customer base, this cannot happen, so it all boils down to...if you don't want it (whatever that "it" happens to be), don't get it (or dump it).
My decision right now, as I will be moving shortly, is...do I keep D* and upgrade to the HR20, or go with Comcast and the Series 3/Moto Box w/Tivo.
The pluses and minuses for me are:
Plus: D* has far more HD content, their prices and plans are far cheaper than Comcast, at least in the Boston area, and I've had D* for 7 years and haven't had any problems.
The HR20 is a 50/50 gamble. Hard to tell - the 50 SP limit is confining, but liveable.
Minuses: Rain/snow fade. Right now, the first channels to go during a storm are the HDs. I've had the dish realigned several times, and the best signal is in the mid 80s. It's a real pain.
With Comcast, the pluses are:
No rain fade. A better quality picture (from what I've seen, at least compared to my current HR 10). And the TiVO, either Series 3 or their box with the TiVO upgrade.
Minuses for Comcast: That would also be the TiVO, because I"m not sure just how much support Comcast will give for it. I've heard horror stories about Cable Cards with the S3, and who knows what the Comcast TiVO download will entail. Plus, the prices for the package I currently have with D* would be ridiculously expensive.
No one can make the final decision but me, and I would say that it's the same for anyone else who *****es and moans about the HR 20. D* isn't about to change anything on the basis of what they see on this or any forum.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

hybucket said:


> Since the only way, it would seem, to figure out the true percentage of users impacted by any decision made by D* would be for D* to call all their customers and ask them


actually they could call a much lower number (valid stastical sample) and get an answer that is within X% of being accurate


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## Rigelian (May 21, 2003)

hybucket said:


> Since the only way, it would seem, to figure out the true percentage of users impacted by any decision made by D* would be for D* to call all their customers and ask them, as this forum certainly is not representative of their customer base, this cannot happen, so it all boils down to...if you don't want it (whatever that "it" happens to be), don't get it (or dump it).


I agree with you. However, I'm not sure if Directv doesn't have a sense of the number of season passes it's average user uses (put it this way, I wouldn't be surprised if Tivo doesn't collect this info and deliver it to Directv for a fee.

The issue of tradeoffs is the very same way I look at it. But the tradeoffs being keeping the HR10 for a while longer and forgoing the new HD channels, switching to cable immediately and getting a S3. I switched from Comcast because their customer service sucked, it would take a lot to get me to go back. (I also like the Sunday Ticket).

For the most part I think people make these decisions based on their individual preferences. Rather than castigating people for making choices that you or I did not make, I think that shedding some light on the considerations makes a lot more sense so that others, who are still trying to make the choice, can rationally reach a decision. For people who switched, having them explain why they switched and what the tradeoffs have been, both from a negative and positive framework makes sense.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I so agree that these boards & dbstalk are not representative of the population. I know a few HR20 owners, all very impressed, non Tivo users, non Message Board users (in general). These average joes are not represented in any of these survey's and if I know 10 or so then there must be a lot out there.

I still fail to understand the overriding argument that goes on here. I like the HR10, I'd be happy if it did MPEG4, but it doesn't. That does not automatically make the HR20 a bad machine. I am much more interested in people who say they cannot live without DLB or 50+ season passes than I am "it's a crappy machine" Those people are making a choice, those features are more important to them than new HD channels. I would continue to be confused by why those people, many of them multi system owners, don't just add an HR20 for the HD channels.


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## Rigelian (May 21, 2003)

JohnB1000 said:


> I still fail to understand the overriding argument that goes on here. I like the HR10, I'd be happy if it did MPEG4, but it doesn't. That does not automatically make the HR20 a bad machine. I am much more interested in people who say they cannot live without DLB or 50+ season passes than I am "it's a crappy machine" Those people are making a choice, those features are more important to them than new HD channels. I would continue to be confused by why those people, many of them multi system owners, don't just add an HR20 for the HD channels.


JohnB1000,

I don't think there's much to understand. It's kind of like an Apple/PC war. I think people are often threatened by choices others make re: their preferences. Frankly, I loved the HR10 and had a HR20 and HR10 system in play I would have been preferectly happy to keep it that way since I like both units but unfortunately the HR10 died. The one thing I miss with the loss of my HR10 is the DLB. At the same time, if I didn't have the HR20 I would have missed the 90 minute buffer. It's all about tradeoffs and making choices in reference to your own preferences.

I suspect that there are a lot of reasons why someone might not add a HR20 unit to their already existing tivo household. 1) the added complexity of wiring, 2) the added mirror cost; 3) brand loyalty.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Rigelian said:


> I suspect that there are a lot of reasons why someone might not add a HR20 unit to their already existing tivo household. 1) the added complexity of wiring, 2) the added mirror cost; 3) brand loyalty.


I completely understand everything you say but given that it's the only way to get the new HD channels (and lets not forget satellite based locals) to be so stubbornly against it seems odd. I would happily accept a significantly worse machine than the HR20 to get the HD locals for example.


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## Rigelian (May 21, 2003)

JohnB1000 said:


> I completely understand everything you say but given that it's the only way to get the new HD channels (and lets not forget satellite based locals) to be so stubbornly against it seems odd. I would happily accept a significantly worse machine than the HR20 to get the HD locals for example.


A few folks are hoping that by holding out they will cause Directv to reflect and offer a mpeg4 Tivo option. I understand that. I was one of the holdouts for OS/2 instead of Windows, however, after Windows 95 hit the market I concluded that it was unlikely that OS/2 would gain the share necessary to remain a viable option, and that Windows became a reasonably acceptable alternative--I jumped ship. I suspect at some point many of these folks are going to have to jump ship as well--either to the HR20 or away from Directv. Time will tell however.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

one super cool thing on the hr20 is the 30 second skip that 'cues' up however many times you press it and then 'does it'.

with tivo you must pause for a fraction more of a second to skip.


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

kyungkim said:


> Please stop giving out these rosy guesstimates. If you can provied a firm sp number with a firm update time I'd be inclined to believe these short time frames.
> 
> I know I've waited more than 10 minutes for an update. How do I know? I woke up late one day, had to change a sp order that morning and took a shower. Came back 10 min later and it was STILL updating.
> 
> ...


63 SP's, 3 min, 20 sec.

How do I know? I used a stopwatch just now... And it was recording two programs at the same time.

How many viewers old enough to have their own shows do you have in your household? You criticize others for generalizations but you seem to be making pretty big assumptions without first hand knowledge.

I think its fine that some people don't need more than 50 SP's. But all these posts trying to justify, or worse, trivialize or belittle, people who have different situations and DVR usable habits is just lame. Its no better than any of the posts of people who report the problems with their HR20 not recording shows jumping on to say "mine works perfectly" and imply that they were either doing something wrong, making it up or whatever. The fact is, nice for the people with no problems but that doesn't change the facts for the people who are having problems and posting otherwise is bound to start and endless war of counter posts back and forth...

This is exactly the same situation. As long as people answer to those wanting more than 50 posts that they show just watch less TV, this will go on forever because it is a pointless, annoying response that will always illicit a gut response...

It's such an arrogant statement on the face of it -- to suggest that anyone who has more season passes must be watching too much TV. Its like the person going 70 in the 55 zone who criticizes the person passing them at 75. You're both speeding so stop judging anyone who doesn't admit to your personal rules.

My wife and I watch 1 hour of TV a day typical. I watch a second hour sometimes late at night. Our school age kids watch none typically on a weekday and 2 hours on a weekend day. Our smallest child watches probably an hour a day (but different shows all the time from a list of a dozen always recorded for him to chose from). There is not a single SP that is out of date or cancelled. Yet we have 63 of them...

And, personally, I can't imagine why someone would care more about an annoying lag time in resorting season passes that the average user only needs to do once in a while more than a program capacity limitation that severely limits the functionality capacity of the box. But to each their own. I accept you have different expectations.

So call the 50 limit a design choice, a bug, a low priority for the developers, whatever. But stop implying that it was done because no one really needs or should have more than 50 SP's. You don't need them. Someone else does. What's wrong with leaving it at that?


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

JohnB1000 said:


> I so agree that these boards & dbstalk are not representative of the population. I know a few HR20 owners, all very impressed, non Tivo users, non Message Board users (in general). These average joes are not represented in any of these survey's and if I know 10 or so then there must be a lot out there.
> 
> I still fail to understand the overriding argument that goes on here. I like the HR10, I'd be happy if it did MPEG4, but it doesn't. That does not automatically make the HR20 a bad machine. I am much more interested in people who say they cannot live without DLB or 50+ season passes than I am "it's a crappy machine" Those people are making a choice, those features are more important to them than new HD channels. I would continue to be confused by why those people, many of them multi system owners, don't just add an HR20 for the HD channels.


Perhaps because the HD channels aren't that big a deal for them. I own one of each in two different rooms. The HR20 remains in our secondary veiwing location and, thought I thought it would be otherwise, we have no temptation to even switch them. Until Battlstar Galactica comes back in 2008 there isn't any of our season passes that are helped by the new HD channels. We get the networks in HD on the 10-250. So until they drop the national network feeds from MPEG-2 there's no rush to give up the machine that allows us to have all our shows (more than 50), the UI we like, the remote we like WAY more, and the box that has (for us) always reliably recorded all our shows...

I know there are others that can't get their locals without MPEG-4, or who have a lot more shows on the non-network HD's, or who like the HR20 UI and who seem to have more reliability with it than others. For any and all of them, its the right choice. That's just not everyone...


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## BoltonHill (Sep 18, 2004)

JohnB1000 said:


> I so agree that these boards & dbstalk are not representative of the population. I know a few HR20 owners, all very impressed, non Tivo users, non Message Board users (in general). These average joes are not represented in any of these survey's and if I know 10 or so then there must be a lot out there.
> 
> I still fail to understand the overriding argument that goes on here. I like the HR10, I'd be happy if it did MPEG4, but it doesn't. That does not automatically make the HR20 a bad machine. I am much more interested in people who say they cannot live without DLB or 50+ season passes than I am "it's a crappy machine" Those people are making a choice, those features are more important to them than new HD channels. I would continue to be confused by why those people, many of them multi system owners, don't just add an HR20 for the HD channels.


JohnB you make a valid point so let me give _a _reason why. If I am handicapped (or am an elderly person), have limited mobility, etc. the TV becomes my "window to the world. If I watch a lot of tv it's because tv has become important to me. It may very well have become the "lynchpin" to my daily quality of life. I PREFER the DLB because it allows me to watch my local news AND CNN in the same half hour time frame missing little or nothing of either and it does it intuitively. The HR20 doesn't do that. During those times when there is nothing on TV I want to watch (repeats, reality shows [*ick!! lolol*], etc), going to my recorded shows helps keep my mind active when my body won't permit me to be active. Plenty of SP's give me a greater choice of what to watch. I CHOOSE (as you stated) to have the features that help me maintain my quality of life (which is good to me) and the HR20 doesn't afford me the same thing.

So the question becomes, do I prefer to watch TV the way I want to watch it or do I prefer to watch high definition TV. I *PREFER* both but since that is not an option I stick to the HR10 as my PRIMARY vehicle. Let's not fall into the "digital" crap either. As far as I am concerned, as an end user, it's ALL digital. The clarity is awesome (and since both boxes are connected to the same TV I can compare).

As for recordings, I've had HR10 from the VERY BEGINNING! and an HR20-700 from the VERY BEGINNING and remember all of it. A little over a year after getting my HR20 it is STILL missing recordings, cutting recordings short, giving bogus 'error 3', and in general having RECORDING problems. I don't have that with my TIVO. TRUE I am still on 3.1f on my HR10 (thank the gods for these forums!!) but while my SP list is taking it's sweet time re-ordering, I switch to composite and am watching the HR20.


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## BoltonHill (Sep 18, 2004)

I wrote in the above for this reason: I don't post very often but I am here on a regular basis. I am OFFENDED at the easy assumption that members who watch A LOT of tv simply don't have lives. The insults and flame wars over this are ridiculous! Some folks want DLB because it improves their viewing habits and others prefer many season passes because they are limited and their quality of life IS improved by being able to record what they want and not have some artificial limit placed on that recording ability.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

By the way, the 50 series link limit has a VERY long thread on DBSTalk dating back to last *December*. All these arguments have been brought up many times and rehashed. Here is the thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=74660


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

A little bit too much logic and tolerance going on here today. But some very good posts by people on both sides explaining their reasoning without knocking anyone else's. I would think that the new fee would be the last straw for many of the Tivo only people. We all knew that the mpeg 2 channels were going away but no one thought channels would be lost this soon. It is time for many to choose the lesser of two evils. I'm sure everyone will make the choice that is best for them.


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## BoltonHill (Sep 18, 2004)

joed32 said:


> A little bit too much logic and tolerance going on here today. But some very good posts by people on both sides explaining their reasoning without knocking anyone else's. I would think that the new fee would be the last straw for many of the Tivo only people. We all knew that the mpeg 2 channels were going away but no one thought channels would be lost this soon. It is time for many to choose the lesser of two evils. I'm sure everyone will make the choice that is best for them.


Joe... Let's remember something... the LESSER of two evils is STILL EVIL!! lololol


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## Rigelian (May 21, 2003)

BoltonHill said:


> Joe... Let's remember something... the LESSER of two evils is STILL EVIL!! lololol


BoltonHill, also remember that the perfect is the enemy of the good.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

And that a rolling stone gathers no moss....


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## hybucket (Nov 26, 2004)

How about starve a cold, stuff a fever?
And could this thread get any more off-base....?


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

BoltonHill, I don't think you say anything that disagrees with me right ? You are making that choice. I certainly don't knock people who watch too much TV

My choice is that I would rather get the HD channels (MPEG4 only for me, no OTA) and have to manage my season passes, than have unlimited season passes and no HD. I also have a unit that has never missed a recording in 11 months, nor had any problems of the known variety.

My other point is that new, non-TIVO, users are impressed by the HR20, they seem more willing to accept the odd missed recording and they learn to manage these things better because they have no expectations.

Since it's an option for me, I choose to keep my HR10 and 3 SD DirectTivo's and use them with my two HR20's. I will eventually retire two of the SD machines. With two HR20's I have dual buffer 

So my confusion is why "having" to get an HR20 for new channels that HR10 can't get makes HR20 such a bad machine for some. History is riddled with stories of 1st (and later) gen products having flaws (iPod's, TIVO's) but people seem to talk as if this is the first time it's happened. History also is riddled with the need to upgrade systems for new things (Ask Apple users about OS upgrades )

I believe some of these posts will turn a few people away from getting an HR20 which, to me, is disingenuous. The HD picture is well worth any small pains.


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## BoltonHill (Sep 18, 2004)

JohnB1000 said:


> BoltonHill, I don't think you say anything that disagrees with me right ? You are making that choice. I certainly don't knock people who watch too much TV
> 
> My choice is that I would rather get the HD channels (MPEG4 only for me, no OTA) and have to manage my season passes, than have unlimited season passes and no HD. I also have a unit that has never missed a recording in 11 months, nor had any problems of the known variety.
> 
> ...


JohnB... I guess I'm saying I MOSTLY agree with you! The difference in agreement comes with the preference for the service provided vs the quality of picture. I prefer what I consider the superior benefits of TIVO over the continuing problems with the HR20 and yet I own both machines and use both machines... just not equally. 90% of my watching is done on HR10. It will probably remain that way until I am dragged kicking and screaming to MPEG-4! lololol

For ME, at THIS point, what I want is a machine that records what I want when I want. For ME, at THIS point, that is the HR10. If I miss a recording on the HR20 so what! I PREFER I didn't but unlike my TIVO unit, that thing has given me issues from day one. Yes... I WILL have to downgrade to it at some point but in the meantime... I will bear my cross as I must! lololol

ANYONE WHO READS MY POST(S) AND ARE TURNED AWAY FROM THE HR20... I say suffer through the growing pains. It's TRUE it is getting better but it is still a beta unit. In the meantime, you will be winding down your 2 year commitment and hopefully it will be ready for primetime. If you MUST have HD.. HD IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT TO YOU then you simply have to switch at some point and I am sorry that there won't be a choice for us.

Other then that... yessir! We agree! lolol Hope your weekend is awesome!


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

See you are actually totally agreeing with me. I said everyone chooses based on their own criteria. You chose different but you still agree with my overall point that people should choose on their personal criteria not based on system bashing from people with different criteria.

See we agree


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## Krookut (Apr 7, 2002)

I've had "empty" recordings and continue to have problems with the HR20, especially the "no signal" on tuner 1 bug.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Krookut said:


> I've had "empty" recordings and continue to have problems with the HR20, especially the "no signal" on tuner 1 bug.


Sounds like a bad tuner. Call DirecTV and get a replacement. No amount of software updates will fix a bad tuner. Good luck!


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

To be short and simple... We like HD. We like Tivo. For many of us, we like tivo more.

In the first days, the HR20 was a _complete_ piece of crap. Tivo, Inc. has never released anything that bad -- even in their first days. Today, the HR20 is much improved, but it's still nowhere near the simplicity and stability of a tivo.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

cramer said:


> To be short and simple... We like HD. We like Tivo. For many of us, we like tivo more.
> 
> In the first days, the HR20 was a _complete_ piece of crap. Tivo, Inc. has never released anything that bad -- even in their first days. Today, the HR20 is much improved, but it's still nowhere near the simplicity and stability of a tivo.


You are only entitled to that opinion if you owned both a first gen HR20 and a first gen TIVO. Let me completely assure you that first gen TIVO's were riddled with problems, but I was still happy to have it. I have an October 2006 HR20 that has never had a single problem.

Please don't let hard facts get in the way of your opinion. This is not even to say you are wrong but I don't think you have first hand experience (please now pop in and tell me that you do)


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## BoltonHill (Sep 18, 2004)

JohnB1000 said:


> You are only entitled to that opinion if you owned both a first gen HR20 and a first gen TIVO. Let me completely assure you that first gen TIVO's were riddled with problems, but I was still happy to have it. I have an October 2006 HR20 that has never had a single problem.
> 
> Please don't let hard facts get in the way of your opinion. This is not even to say you are wrong but I don't think you have first hand experience *(please now pop in and tell me that you do)*


Since you insist! loloolol  Well JohnB... I had a first generation HR10 and an Oct 2006 HR20. The TIVO only gave me trouble one time... when I upgraded to that crappy 6.1 (or whatever version it was!) firmware. FORTUNATELY I was able to get back down to 3.1f so it's still working GREAT! Now I'm SURE I'm an exception to the rule for TCF members BUT on the other hand, my HR20 has given me issues from day one. YES it IS working better today then before but it's STILL missing recordings, STILL doesn't have DLB, still etc etc etc.

This, I suppose, entitles me to that opinion as well! I remember the HDMI issues from TIVO although I didn't suffer from them. In fact I am still using my first one unit ($1,000!) and still enjoying it!


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

JohnB1000 said:


> You are only entitled to that opinion if you owned both a first gen HR20 and a first gen TIVO. Let me completely assure you that first gen TIVO's were riddled with problems, but I was still happy to have it. I have an October 2006 HR20 that has never had a single problem.
> 
> Please don't let hard facts get in the way of your opinion. This is not even to say you are wrong but I don't think you have first hand experience (please now pop in and tell me that you do)


I have plenty of first gen experience. I had the first gen TiVo, the DirecTiVo from the first week of release, the 10-250 from early on and the HR20 from Nov 2006. Perhaps more importantly, since everyone's experience is different based on a thousand variables, I was very active on this board at the time and for the HR20 release the DSBTalk forums.

From my POV, the HR20 launch was unprecedented in the level of critical problems in the first few months. There have always been people with bad TiVo experiences too, but there wasn't a fraction of the noise from so many users at the time of their launch as their was with the HR20. Not even in the same league. Go back and search the archives on thsi board and try to find the same level of issues reported by so many people. Also, I know at the time that when people had early D* TiVo issues, they were sent replacements because they were perceived by D* as largely hardware issues. The same was not true of the HR20. There were always some who got clueless or easy CSR's who got sent new units, but in many, mnay cases DirecTV didn't because they openly acknowledged they had "known" software problems and expected people to wait about 6 months (depending on when you got it) for them to be fixed.

All that said, D* did release software updates WAY more frequently and quickly than they ever did with the TiVo. And the box now, for most it appears, is WAY more stable and already has responded to a lot of the UI and feature gripes from the early releases which, again, is radically faster than it happened with TiVo. I can definitely see for some, depending on their feature priorities, why the HR20 is now a better box, even without the HD issue. And there is no doubt for better or worse that it is D* future direction. Wishing for a new TiVo alliance is pretty hopeless at this point... I am sure eventually I will have to give up the last remaining TiVo or drop D*.

So I am not a hardcore HR20 hater. But I also don't like reinventing history. It was a initially a very troubled machine for a vast number of people (not a small minority) of users who got in in 2006. There was no comparison with the early TiVo laucnh.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

JohnB1000 said:


> You are only entitled to that opinion if you owned both a first gen HR20 and a first gen TIVO. Let me completely assure you that first gen TIVO's were riddled with problems, but I was still happy to have it. I have an October 2006 HR20 that has never had a single problem.
> 
> Please don't let hard facts get in the way of your opinion. This is not even to say you are wrong but I don't think you have first hand experience (please now pop in and tell me that you do)


Here's the thing, why must the HR20 be compared to "the first generation HR10?" DVR's aren't 'new' anymore, and the HR20 should've worked every bit as well as the HR10 does *now,* not when it (HR10) was first introduced years ago.

When I got my HR20, it was supossed to be an _upgrade_ ...not a restart from square one. We were paying for the privledge of being D* beta testers.

Yes, there are people who claim they've never had a single problem with the unit....ever. But I think those are in the minority. My unit still misses SL recordings too, and until this stops happening, I can't recommend the unit.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> Here's the thing, why must the HR20 be compared to "the first generation HR10?"


Because it was a first generation product... no part of it was bought or licensed from any experienced DVR maker. It was 100% home grown within DTV. They don't want to license anything from anyone because they'd have to pay for it; and if they refuse to pay Tivo, Inc. $1 per DVR subscriber for _all_ of Tivo's technology, what makes you think they'd pay anyone else anything?



> Yes, there are people who claim they've never had a single problem with the unit...


And there are people who have reportedly had unending problems with tivo's. These things are always hard to gauge as those who aren't having issues generally don't speak up. However, the number of deployed HR20's has been increasing, but I've not seen a coresponding increase in complaints.


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

cramer said:


> And there are people who have reportedly had unending problems with tivo's. These things are always hard to gauge as those who aren't having issues generally don't speak up. However, the number of deployed HR20's has been increasing, but I've not seen a coresponding increase in complaints.


Are you really being serious in comparing the people who have 10-250 problems (other than HD failures which are univeral to all DVR's) to the level of problems with the the early HR20? I'm sorry, but it's a difference of magnitude. Its like comparing a product that has less than 1% of replacement due to overheating with the early XBox 360 where MS ended up admitted it was an issue in a huge percentage of the boxes. Fortunatley for D*, there's was a remotely addressable software issue. But it was massively different in scale.

Again, not an HR20 hater. I own and use one and expect to eventually have another (or is sequel). And for a vast majority of users, the problems are behind them. I would say that the # of people still with HR20 issues is now finally on par with 10-250 issues, proportionate to the user base. But I am repeatedly mystified by this argument that the early problems were comparable. Its about as credible as a flat Earth..


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

cramer said:


> Because it was a first generation product... no part of it was bought or licensed from any experienced DVR maker. It was 100% home grown within DTV. They don't want to license anything from anyone because they'd have to pay for it; and if they refuse to pay Tivo, Inc. $1 per DVR subscriber for _all_ of Tivo's technology, what makes you think they'd pay anyone else anything?


When Hyundai introduced their very first automobile it wasn't compared to compacts from 10 years ago ...it was compared to that which was currently on the market (which is the way it should be).

HR20 should be comparable to other units and how they work_ today_. That's the standard.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

> And there are people who have reportedly had unending problems with tivo's. These things are always hard to gauge as those who aren't having issues generally don't speak up. However, the number of deployed HR20's has been increasing, but I've not seen a coresponding increase in complaints.


I was on the phone almost weekly with D* about our HR20 problems. After a year of problems, phone calls, and empty promises (and 4 replacement units)...they've worn me down. I've simply stopped calling to complain, as the response I get isn't worth the phone call anymore.

I've accepted the fact that I've got to live with it, until D* fixes it. It is what it is unfortunately.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> When Hyundai introduced their very first automobile it wasn't compared to compacts from 10 years ago ...it was compared to that which was currently on the market (which is the way it should be).
> 
> HR20 should be comparable to other units and how they work_ today_. That's the standard.


Unfortunately people seem to be unable to view electronics this way and I have never understood it either.

When the Xbox came out even though it was going against the PS2 people compared it to the PS1 since it was the first generation by the Microsoft fans and the Sony fans argued it should be compared to the current PS2. Then when the PS3 was launched it was compared to the Xbox 360 launch by the Sony fans and not the actual system at the time of the launch.

Since the R-15 came out people have been comparing it to since Tivo first premiered on Directv back when it only had one tuner active. The argument is always that the product is first gen so it should be compared to the first gen. It seems limited to electronics but only when the company gets a pass. For example the Zune was never compared to the first Ipod that I have seen.


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