# Lost "Follow the Leader" 5/6/2009 spoilers



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Wow.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Goddamn Kate.. Get the hell out of the sub.

How damned cool would it be if we saw a scene where John tells Christian to go tell John to fix the wheel, and it turns out that every single mystical thing we've heard on the island has all been caused by John??


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Oh.. and Jack is an idiot.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

The sub leaving the island looked CGI-ish to me.

So Lock wants a hundred witnesses, pretty damn smart.


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## jmak (Apr 12, 2002)

What year are Sun, Locke, and Ben in? I thought they were in 2007 but they run into the other Locke from 2004. How did that happen?


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Wow.

What a shocker at the end.

Yep, Jack's an idiot.


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

Ben has absolutely no idea what is going on! He appears genuinely shocked about John's plan.

I'm really getting tired of Kate's problem-solving approach. I was actually disappointed to she that she didn't get shot before Sayid shot the Other.

Only 166.75 hours to go...


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

jmak said:


> What year are Sun, Locke, and Ben in? I thought they were in 2007 but they run into the other Locke from 2004. How did that happen?


No... John got shot, and then there was a flash, and then he happened on the crashed plane. So he was in 2007 for a few minutes.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

jmak said:


> What year are Sun, Locke, and Ben in? I thought they were in 2007 but they run into the other Locke from 2004. How did that happen?


When we saw that scene the first time, Locke was jumping backward and forward in time. It was just before he "fixed" the wheel and stopped the jumping.

Apparently, he was briefly in 2007 during all that jumping.

What we don't know (and what shocked Ben) was how Locke knew that he, Ben and Richard were right at that particular moment. How he knew "exactly where to be."


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## jmak (Apr 12, 2002)

But Richard said he hasn't seen Locke for three years.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

jmak said:


> But Richard said he hasn't seen Locke for three years.


In 2007 he had NOT seen Locke for 3 years since 2004.


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## jmak (Apr 12, 2002)

Never mind, I understand now. Locke jumped into the future briefly after the second plane wreck.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Oh.. and Jack is an idiot.


Thought so in Season One, "Jack must die!"

Gotta luv Sawyer & Juliette, all lovey dovey and then...in comes Kate.  
Why women hate threesomes I'll never understand.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

jmak said:


> But Richard said he hasn't seen Locke for three years.


2004 -2007 is three years. Richard last saw John right before Ben turned the wheel, then John vanished. John is back on the island 3 years later.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

LOVE the new psycho-Locke. After three seasons of being mentioned it's nice that someone is finally calling out Jacob. Determined, edgy, psycho-locke is much better then "WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DOOOOO?" Locke.

I feel like I missed something because I don't understand, at all, how detonating a hydrogen bomb is gonna prevent _anything._ Maybe I just don't understand H-bombs but will it not descimate the island and all of it's inhabitants? Are Jack and Ellie doing it knowing it's gonna kill them? I'm confused on that.

edit: Spoiler about next week's Previews


Spoiler



I'm also not a fan of this whole 815'ers against each other out of nowhere. The preview for the finale made it look like it's all about them clashing--there are other existing conflicts to deal with, lets not introduce new ones, lol. Just I get what's happening, Jack and Sayid are trying to detonate the bomb, essentially destroying the island and thus their plane will never crash on it, while the other survivors feel that it won't work and try to stop them? I'm just not sure I'm 100% on everyone's motivations and agendas at this point.



I actually loved the Sawyer/Juliet scene at the end and was annoyed that they finally had a solid, drama free moment, and then Kate shows up. Over the Kate thing. Hopefully that goes away after the finale.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

I for one did not expect my man Locke to be on a mission to kill Jacob.

Kinda ironic to see Kate implying that Jack was sounding like Locke. Even self-absorbed Jack should have a clue that Kate would not be all that happy to land in LA in 2004. Hello!


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

mrdazzo7 said:


> LOVE the new psycho-Locke. After three seasons of being mentioned it's nice that someone is finally calling out Jacob. Determined, edgy, psycho-locke is much better then "WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DOOOOO?" Locke.
> 
> I feel like I missed something because I don't understand, at all, how detonating a hydrogen bomb is gonna prevent _anything._ Maybe I just don't understand H-bombs but will it not descimate the island and all of it's inhabitants? Are Jack and Ellie doing it knowing it's gonna kill them? I'm confused on that.


My guess is that the island energy force is what's termed 'negative energy' in physics and in the sci-fi science of LOST, the positive real world energy of the bomb would offset it. Probably not 100% though, thus "The Incident".


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mrdazzo7, I just skipped your post. Please go back and spoiler anything about the finale - previews for next week are spoiler material and some of us torture ourselves not to see it because we want to keep it all a surprise - and to have it then spoiled means we lose twice.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Interesting aspects tonite...

Richard tells Sun he saw the Oceanic Six et. al. (OK minus a couple) all die back in '77

Locke re-invigorated, actually giving new depth to the term, and confidently purposefull

Great seeing the all knowing, 3 steps ahead thinking, smug Ben completely flummoxed

Glad to see Sayid back on the scene. His body count continues to escallate!

The Island told Locke the time & place of the Richard bullet rescue and now Locke is out to kill Jacob. The events are related.

Me, I love the Kate and Juliette together scenes. Now if there were only some light rain and mud for them to wrestle, so to speak, with their antipathy. But I digress.


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## rufus_x_s (Jul 14, 2004)

Candle guy to Hurley: Who is the president?

Wife and I had a good laugh at that one, recalling Hurley's worry about just that question and Sawyer telling him to relax, that it's not a game show. (Or there wouldn't be a test or whatever.) And then I loved it that he just folded after that.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Maybe I just don't understand H-bombs but will it not descimate the island and all of it's inhabitants? Are Jack and Ellie doing it knowing it's gonna kill them?


It can't hurt them if suddenly it never happened and they were never there.

So, besides for the sick enjoyment of it, why beat up Sawyer to try and get info out of him instead of just getting Oldham the LSD guy that they used for Sayid?


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## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

so the island told Locke where and when he would find himself. so presumably, the island also told locke to kill jacob?? jacob vs. the island?? 

i'm so lost...


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

goMO said:


> so the island told Locke where and when he would find himself. so presumeably, the island also told locke to kill jacob?? jacob vs. the island??
> 
> i'm so lost...


Believe me, you have company!


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> The sub leaving the island looked CGI-ish to me.
> 
> So Lock wants a hundred witnesses, pretty damn smart.


Better CGI than the freighter explosion, at any rate. But definitely GCI. Wanna bet the empty camp is where the "flashers" steal a catamaran from, and get shot at (from earlier this season)?



rufus_x_s said:


> Candle guy to Hurley: Who is the president?
> 
> Wife and I had a good laugh at that one, recalling Hurley's worry about just that question and Sawyer telling him to relax, that it's not a game show. (Or there wouldn't be a test or whatever.) And then I loved it that he just folded after that.


That cracked me up too. What's even better is that even he got the answer right no one would have believed him by then.

There better not be a timer on the nuclear weapon. If there is, it better have sweep hands.  Seriously, blowing up a 40 year old nuc? That's been leaking all this time? Hey, good luck with that. Of course, Sayid tagged along so he can probably BUILD a timer and detonator out of palm fronds and a radio.

And we had a Charlotte sighting!


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Delta13 said:


> Better CGI than the freighter explosion, at any rate. But definitely GCI.


I thought it was worse than the freighter. The water didn't seem to splash enough.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Yeah, very CGI, it even looked bad on my 32 inch in the bedroom. Still though, it got the point across I guess.


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## jpicard (Oct 26, 2004)

I still am waiting for the answer to when crazy institutional man gets the numbers from the 1977 hatch cover and then somehow gets off the island and into the institution to tell 2004 (or whatever couple of years previous in his flashbacks) Hurley about the hatch serial numbers so that 2004 Hurley can win the lottery and buy a plane ticket and then crash on the island... and so on and so on....


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jpicard said:


> I still am waiting for the answer to when crazy institutional man gets the numbers from the 1977 hatch cover and then somehow gets off the island and into the institution to tell 2004 (or whatever couple of years previous in his flashbacks) Hurley about the hatch serial numbers so that 2004 Hurley can win the lottery and buy a plane ticket and then crash on the island... and so on and so on....


we already know some of that. He was working at a listening station somewhere and heard the numbers being broadcast from the island.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> we already know some of that. He was working at a listening station somewhere and heard the numbers being broadcast from the island.


Exactly. He (Lenny) and his partner heard the numbers being broadcast from the Island (from the radio tower before Danielle changed the transmission). They then returned home and encountered bad luck whenever they used the numbers. Lenny ended up in the mental institution and his partner from Australia died after winning some carnival competition (using the sum of the numbers).


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> mrdazzo7, I just skipped your post...


No worries, it wasn't much of a spoiler. What he saw and described could be said about 90% of all the episodes. It was real general, no details.

I absolutely hated the CGI scene where the sub submerged. It looked like a cut scene from a bargain bin PC game. A toy sub in a bathtub would have looked better. Very disappointing. If they needed to save money they should have just done without that scene altogether.


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## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

Just a guess, but Richard saw them all die because they detonate the bomb.


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

Am I the only one thinking that the writers are really going to have to work overtime next season explaining all the little unexplained tidbits so I don't feel cheated at the end of this?


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

Rinkdog said:


> Just a guess, but Richard saw them all die because they detonate the bomb.


That would insinuate that the plan didn't work and Richard is in fact immortal, otherwise he would have no recollection of them.


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

And just how did Sawyer and Juliet go from being cut, bruised, bloody messes (at least Sawyer, but Juliet also took one on the mouth), to being free from any blemish whatsoever in the sub? Was that several days later? It seemed like it was mere minutes, maybe a few hours, after the "interrogation". Bad editing, or does the island heal that fast?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Richard _believes_ or _thinks_ he saw them all die.

Assuming he's telling the truth.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

No spoilers in this post at all. As someone who watches the previews every week, the one thing I've learned is that they are highly manipulative and misleading, with cuts and splices that make no sense. If the preview makers were doing previews for The Empire Strikes Back, they'd have Darth Vader say "I am your father" and then immediately cut to and make it look like he was talking to Yoda.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Jeeters said:


> So, besides for the sick enjoyment of it, why beat up Sawyer to try and get info out of him instead of just getting Oldham the LSD guy that they used for Sayid?


I actually paused it and said the same thing to my wife.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

A lot to digest here.
How did Locke know the exact moment he needed to help his past self.
How is he communing with the Island?

What are the odds on Jack screwing things up?
Kate, James, and Juliette aren't going to make it back to the Mainland.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

jwehman said:


> And just how did Sawyer and Juliet go from being cut, bruised, bloody messes (at least Sawyer, but Juliet also took one on the mouth), to being free from any blemish whatsoever in the sub? Was that several days later? It seemed like it was mere minutes, maybe a few hours, after the "interrogation". Bad editing, or does the island heal that fast?


They were still cut and bruised when on the sub. I know this because I noticed the large welt/bruise on Juliet's mouth when they were being handcuffed to the table on the sub.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I love a show that, when a character says he is going to kill someone, raises the following questions:

1. Is he really going to kill him or was he just lying as part of a larger plan?

2. If he is really going to kill him, is it to stop him or save him?

3. Does he know who he is planning on killing?

4. Are his reasons personal, or is he under orders from someone else?

5. Who is that someone else, and is it someone we already know? (For that matter, is it someone he knows?)

6. What lies in the shadow of the statue?


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## eMarkM (Apr 28, 2003)

It's been speculated for a long time that Ben has faked his knowledge of Jacob and has been a "false" leader and this episode more or less confirmed it. Ben freaked when John could hear Jacob and subsequently shot him. Both Ben and Richard we're completely perplexed by the seemingly prescient Locke. This is the first time we've seen Richard really confused and he showed it throughout the episode. I know I'm not the only one loving the new all-knowing Locke and his lap dog Ben. Great scenes between them.

The big shocker at the end with Locke wanting to kill Jacob. Could this be a mercy killing? All we know of Jacob is his saying "help me" to John. Does this mean he wants to die? I don't think John meant malice by saying he wants to kill Jacob, I think somehow Jacob wants to die, to be released and the new all-knowing Locke knows it. Released from what we don't know, next to nothing is known about Jacob. Apparently to most of the island inhabitants, too. I think we may get a bomb of an answer to the Jacob Question in the finale.

Speaking of bombs, not so sure about where the hydrogen bomb line is going. I agree with previous posters in Lost threads that it would be an old Sci-Fi cliche if this all comes down to "changing the future". I really like the "what happened, happened" rules. I really hope there's a twist here we don't see coming.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

eMarkM said:


> This is the first time we've seen Richard really confused and he showed it throughout the episode. I know I'm not the only one loving the new all-knowing Locke and his lap dog Ben. Great scenes between them.


Richard doesn't seem to care much for the new Locke, does he? And he was as shocked as Ben that Locke was once dead, but now... isn't. His little aside to Ben about Locke being a problem seemed sinister and conspiritorial. Ben seemed to back him up, but then reported the conversation to Locke--helping him just as he promised Smokey he would. Ben may end up being a Gollum figure in this story.



> The big shocker at the end with Locke wanting to kill Jacob. Could this be a mercy killing? All we know of Jacob is his saying "help me" to John. Does this mean he wants to die?


I think of him (I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned by others) as something like the Occupant in "The Room". Or, perhaps he is somehow, if not the source of the island's power, a method of harnessing or communing with it. A sad figure, something like the child in "Those who walk away from Omelas".


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Richard _believes_ or _thinks_ he saw them all die.
> 
> Assuming he's telling the truth.


Assuming Jack and co. DO detonate the bomb and Farraday's plan would work, they might just disappear which Richard could interpret as dying in a blast.

Interestingly, if Sawyer/Kate/Juliet DO return the sub to the dock, it's also possible that by bringing all those people back to the island (including Li'l Miles and Li'l Charlotte) and if they are killed at the island, that may have the unintended effect of changing the future as at least 2 of the freighter people wouldn't be around.

I'm also unsure of Locke's motivation to off Jacob. Apparently he knows something we don't. In any case, it'd be nice to meet the guy.


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## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

Big_Daddy said:


> Assuming Jack and co. DO detonate the bomb and Farraday's plan would work, they might just disappear which Richard could interpret as dying in a blast.


This is my thinking also, the bomb detonation would then be known as the incident. Whatever happens, I am sure the end of next weeks episode will be another game changer leaving us with no idea where this is going.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Nobody else had the feeling that Locke is going to expose Jacob as a fake? My whole feeling, based on his speech to the Others was that he was essentially telling them there IS no Jacob, and they've been duped. That is why he's bringing them along and making sure that Ben and Richard come along so he could prove it. That whole thing about "you all have been taking orders from someone named Jacob" gave me that feeling. Plus Richard saying to Ben that Locke is going to be trouble. My theory is that Ben and Richard have been holding the mystical Jacob over the Others' heads as a way to maintain the power structure. I also think that when Locke gets to Jacob's cabin, they are going to try and kill Locke. Not sure where the whole Help Me falls into this, but it could have something to do with time travel, or something unexplained yet.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Also, wouldn't the detonation of an H-Bomb set off world wide triggers? I think a detonation like that could be monitored. My theory is this bomb will never go off, but the electronic pulse well be unleashed.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

eMarkM said:


> I agree with previous posters in Lost threads that it would be an old Sci-Fi cliche if this all comes down to "changing the future". I really like the "what happened, happened" rules. I really hope there's a twist here we don't see coming.


People keep saying this, but I don't see why it's cliche to pick one time travel option over the other. There are only two possibilities: events can be changed or they can't. Both have been covered in numerous time travel stories. And, more generally than that, stories have been told involving the fate of characters being predestined as well as them being able to change it.

"What happened, happened" is not an original concept, unique only to Lost. Lost has a unique story, but that uniqueness is not dependent on what time travel option they ultimately decide to go with. Now, if they hit the Big Reset Button at the end of the entire series, I agree that would be disappointing. (And it's something they claimed at the beginning that they would not do.) But that's because all of the characters' actions would be cheapened, not even having an effect on their own imaginary world. I wouldn't like that even if this was the first story to ever have a complete reset at the end.

And we might not ever find out whether or not events could be changed. We now have characters in a disagreement over whether or not events should be changed. If events ultimately end up not being changed, we might not know whether it was because they couldn't be changed or because those that didn't want them to be changed won the battle to ensure that things didn't.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> His little aside to Ben about Locke being a problem seemed sinister and conspiritorial. Ben seemed to back him up, but then reported the conversation to Locke--helping him just as he promised Smokey he would. Ben may end up being a Gollum figure in this story.
> 
> I think of him (I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned by others) as something like the Occupant in "The Room". Or, perhaps he is somehow, if not the source of the island's power, a method of harnessing or communing with it. A sad figure, something like the child in "Those who walk away from Omelas".


I have never seen nor read the "Rings" but I have an idea about which you write. I have no idea about these other references.



Steveknj said:


> Nobody else had the feeling that Locke is going to expose Jacob as a fake? My whole feeling, based on his speech to the Others was that he was essentially telling them there IS no Jacob, and they've been duped. That is why he's bringing them along and making sure that Ben and Richard come along so he could prove it. That whole thing about "you all have been taking orders from someone named Jacob" gave me that feeling. Plus Richard saying to Ben that Locke is going to be trouble. My theory is that Ben and Richard have been holding the mystical Jacob over the Others' heads as a way to maintain the power structure. I also think that when Locke gets to Jacob's cabin, they are going to try and kill Locke. Not sure where the whole Help Me falls into this, but it could have something to do with time travel, or something unexplained yet.


I like this.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

What about the theory that we all had at one point that John is Jacob. 

Let's look at it this way.....we have time travell going on. Weird energy sources. Etc. Perhaps the detonation of the bomb opens a little ripple in the space time contiuum and allows John to speak to himself/the island. Maybe John saying "I am going to Kill Jacob" is just a way of saying he wants to go close that ripple somehow. Maybe to him the only way is to try and kill himself.

Ok....wacko idea.....

I just love this show.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> I love a show that, when a character says he is going to kill someone, raises the following questions:
> 
> 1. Is he really going to kill him or was he just lying as part of a larger plan?
> 
> ...


7. Is it even possible to kill that someone?

8. Is that someone already dead?

9. Will doing so be the cause of things we know to have happened in the past?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

jlb said:


> Maybe John saying "I am going to Kill Jacob" is just a way of saying he wants to...kill himself.
> 
> Ok....wacko idea.....


Not wacko at all. There's nothing so far to contradict it, anyway. I'm not sure why John would so strongly dislike flashlights. OTOH, he never approved of Ben letting the Others use the Dharma housing and technology, so maybe.



teknikel said:


> I have never seen nor read the "Rings" but I have an idea about which you write. I have no idea about these other references.


Oh, well in "The Room"


Spoiler



"The Occupant" is just a man who gets trapped in a mysterious room that can only be reached with a certain magic key, and even once there he can't be seen. At the end of the series, the Occupant asks a man to kill him, thereby releasing him from the room. Neither one knows if the one doing the killing would then become the new Occupant.



In "Omelas"


Spoiler



The child is just a normal child that is locked alone in a small windowless room, neglected and unloved for it's whole life. Because of this horrible act, the city of Omelas is a perfect utopia. It's not explained why. Most people decide that the sacrifice of the child is worth all the good it brings. A few disagree, and walk away from Omelas.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Locke asked Richard if he still had the compass he gave him and they didn't show another compass, so the question is, did Richard give past Locke the compass that Locke gave him? If so, I'm not sure what meaning the compass would have had to past Richard. But then again, Richard didn't know what he was going to do until Locke told him at the last minute, so he might have simply been saying what was necessary to get past Locke to give past him the compass.

Perhaps the compass is a guage for how many "iterations" have happened in the timeline. Or maybe the compass exists beyond time, and is, like Richard, an imperishable fixture.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Nobody else had the feeling that Locke is going to expose Jacob as a fake? My whole feeling, based on his speech to the Others was that he was essentially telling them there IS no Jacob, and they've been duped. That is why he's bringing them along and making sure that Ben and Richard come along so he could prove it. That whole thing about "you all have been taking orders from someone named Jacob" gave me that feeling. Plus Richard saying to Ben that Locke is going to be trouble. My theory is that Ben and Richard have been holding the mystical Jacob over the Others' heads as a way to maintain the power structure. I also think that when Locke gets to Jacob's cabin, they are going to try and kill Locke. Not sure where the whole Help Me falls into this, but it could have something to do with time travel, or something unexplained yet.


An interesting theory. I do think it's something like that.

Either 1) There is no Jacob, in which case "killing" him is metaphorical. He's going to "kill" the lie that he exists, or 2) Locke is convinced that Jacob is "bad" and following him is bad for the Others. He believes that by bringing everyone along, the "badness" will be exposed.

In either case, if Locke successfully convinces the Others that Jacob either doesn't exist, or is "bad", the Other's will almost surely turn on Ben and Richard, for having led them down the "wrong path" (by either taking Jacob's bad advice or lying to them about his very existence) for many years. This makes it strange that Locke "tipped his hand" to Ben, in telling Ben that he plans to kill Jacob. Surely this will cause Ben and Richard to start scheming to stop Locke. Does Locke believe that he's invulnerable? If so, is he right? I guess resurrecting from the dead would make a person feel a little God-like!


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I haven't been able to follow these threads for the last few weeks, so I apologize if it's been discussed, but have we seen Ben's little friend Annie at all during these 1970's scenes? It was made to seem that she was so influential, yet (to my knowledge) we haven't seen her since that one episode.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

philw1776 said:


> My guess is that the island energy force is what's termed 'negative energy' in physics and in the sci-fi science of LOST, the positive real world energy of the bomb would offset it. Probably not 100% though, thus "The Incident".


Is this perhaps what Daniel means whenever he talks about "destroying" the energy? Because every time he says this, my 13-year-old son brings up the law of conservation of energy.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> 7. Is it even possible to kill that someone?
> 
> 8. Is that someone already dead?
> 
> 9. Will doing so be the cause of things we know to have happened in the past?




```
10. ------> John ------>
                        \
                        |
                        /
    <----- Jacob <------

    --------------------|

           Do John and Jacob "kill" each other?
```


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Big_Daddy said:


> Assuming Jack and co. DO detonate the bomb and Farraday's plan would work, they might just disappear which Richard could interpret as dying in a blast.
> 
> Interestingly, if Sawyer/Kate/Juliet DO return the sub to the dock, it's also possible that by bringing all those people back to the island (including Li'l Miles and Li'l Charlotte) and if they are killed at the island, that may have the unintended effect of changing the future as at least 2 of the freighter people wouldn't be around.
> 
> I'm also unsure of Locke's motivation to off Jacob. Apparently he knows something we don't. In any case, it'd be nice to meet the


My take...IF the bomb is detonated it will not have the effects we expect from real world H bombs because of the strange energy source under the island. I still contend that this island energy is 'negative' energy to be offset by the H bomb regular energy we're familiar with. Faraday was not trying to immolate everyone in an H bomb blast, but was trying to counteract the island's energy which had something to do with The Incident. I believe that The Incident was/will be a side effect of these actions. Now, whether 'What Happened, Happened' with regard to The Incident occurs or something else 'happens' this time...it's up to the writers who have rarely been predictable.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Is this perhaps what Daniel means whenever he talks about "destroying" the energy? Because every time he says this, my 13-year-old son brings up the law of conservation of energy.


I think so. Good for your son. The concept of negative energy is speculative physics, right up the sci-fi alley.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Rinkdog said:


> Whatever happens, I am sure the end of next weeks episode will be another game changer leaving us with no idea where this is going.


Should be a real Fork in the Outlet!


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> Locke asked Richard if he still had the compass he gave him and they didn't show another compass, so the question is, did Richard give past Locke the compass that Locke gave him? If so, I'm not sure what meaning the compass would have had to past Richard. But then again, Richard didn't know what he was going to do until Locke told him at the last minute, so he might have simply been saying what was necessary to get past Locke to give past him the compass.
> 
> Perhaps the compass is a guage for how many "iterations" have happened in the timeline. Or maybe the compass exists beyond time, and is, like Richard, an imperishable fixture.


I think the Compass is just a way to prove to Richard that John does have a special relationship to the island. Richard was extremely surprised that John was able to 'talk' to the island.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

hefe said:


> Should be a real Fork in the Outlet!


Which anagrams to: Knife Toe Hurt Lot. So, there ya go. It all makes sense.


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> The sub leaving the island looked CGI-ish to me.


Yeah, it looked really bad. Both the wife and I agreed with you on that.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> I haven't been able to follow these threads for the last few weeks, so I apologize if it's been discussed, but have we seen Ben's little friend Annie at all during these 1970's scenes? It was made to seem that she was so influential, yet (to my knowledge) we haven't seen her since that one episode.


No, they haven't (nor have we seen much reference to the volcano they alluded to, which I expect will be addressed next season sometime, and which we heard about in the same episode). I wouldn't be surprised if the reason they introduced her was to give us a "her" that we could believe statements like "Of course he does.. You look just like her!" would refer to, before it was revealed that Juliete was actually back there too.



Big_Daddy said:


> Assuming Jack and co. DO detonate the bomb and Farraday's plan would work, they might just disappear which Richard could interpret as dying in a blast.


Doesn't work. They could (and probably will) detonate the bomb - sure.. but Faraday's plan _working_? Nope. Because if it did negate that energy, causing them not to build the Hatch, allowing 815 to never crash, preventing Widmore's 815-hunting expedition with Daniel, then Daniel will never tell them to bury the bomb, nor will he come back with the idea of detonating the bomb to give to Eloise via Jack.

In fact the only way I even slightly buy Daniel's motivation in the last episode is absolute blinding sadness about Charlotte's loss, which would allow someone to do something without thinking. Because if he thought about his plan for even 5 minutes he'd realize it couldn't possibly even slightly work. He's betting on both sides: he wants the lack of a button hatch to keep the flight from coming down so that Charlotte never dies, but that same unraveling would keep him from ever being able to prevent the hatch digging explosion that he'd stop. Crazy insane bad idea that can't work.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see that their digging at the hatch station wasn't really about to hit a similar patch of energy as at the Orchid station, but rather that Jack and friends detonating the H bomb caused some stream of visible energy/explosion to come out near the hatch station (via the tunnels?), and Pierre sees that and says "look! we dug and released energy, just like that Daniel guy said!". He then documents this, somehow that documentation makes it back to Ann Arbor Daniel 0-3 years earlier, and Daniel decides to come to the island to stop it by detonating an H bomb.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Richard and his ship in a bottle. They gotta be telling us something there. Are they hinting at his connection to the Black Rock? Is it some sort of metaphor?


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

BitbyBlit said:


> ```
> 10. ------> John ------>
> \
> |
> ...


His name, is my name too!


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Aside from immortality (or at least long life) we haven't seen any magic powers from Richard. I used to think that he "knew" when and where John appeared so that he can heal him and tell him that he has to die. But we found out last night that Richard knew nothing of the sort.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

I'd wondered about John going to "kill" the myth of Jacob. But didn't he see Jacob? Or at least see Christian, along with Claire, who alleged he "represented" Jacob. THis would suggest he believe Jacob to be real, or at least he believes Christian (whom he doesn't know is Jack's dad) is Jacob. I could see him wanting to meet Jacob, but am still at a loss for why he'd want to kill Jacob, assuming he believes Jacob is actually real.

...and you thought the time travel plot made your head hurt....


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Big_Daddy said:


> I'd wondered about John going to "kill" the myth of Jacob. But didn't he see Jacob? Or at least see Christian, along with Claire, who alleged he "represented" Jacob. THis would suggest he believe Jacob to be real, or at least he believes Christian (whom he doesn't know is Jack's dad) is Jacob. I could see him wanting to meet Jacob, but am still at a loss for why he'd want to kill Jacob, assuming he believes Jacob is actually real.
> 
> ...and you thought the time travel plot made your head hurt....


He DOES know that's Jack's dad.

"Say hello to my son for me!"

"Who's your son???"

(followed by him telling Jack that it had to be his dad, and that his name was Christian)


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

BitbyBlit said:


> ```
> 10. ------> John ------>
> \
> |
> ...


11. Is trying to kill Jacob the event that causes John to become Jacob?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I'm not really liking the Locke killing Jacob thread as much as I am the Sawyer/Jack/Dahrma thread in the story line. This just seems a bit too "out there" even for Lost standards. Locke is just being a bit too coy for my taste. But I'm sure Lost will give us some payoff, and at the end, this will all mean something. But the time frame for the whole Locke thread is a bit too confusing. Like you said, it's making my head hurt.


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## tgmii (Feb 21, 2002)

I think Jacob is going to be someone from "Brotherhood".  First Rose, then Freddie. Good thing to use very good actors from Brotherhood, Madmen (Phil), but a little distracting too, unless they are going to re-establish them.
Freddie tonight was just a really long walk-on role... 

Tom


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Some random thoughts...

* I vaguely recall them talking about moving the H-bomb, and Richard said something about how hard it was to move a 40,000 lb bomb and we'd move it the same way we moved it the first time. But I don't think he/they ever made it clear what that was. Smokey?

* Before I crash my brain trying to figure out what Locke meant about killing Jacob, I'll just wait for next week. Pretty much every season ends with an amazing episode that completely resets the table for the next year. I assume they will do the same this year, and it will involve Jacob in some form.

* And speaking of finales & seasons, my hope is that next week reunites the Losties, and we can conclude the time travel stories. I know several people who watch LOST religiously and truly love the show, but are *not* Lostaholics (never read forums, don't recall every past scene, etc). And while they still love it, these people are very confused. The time travel story lines have left them with almost no idea of what is what and who is where. But they watch because they are invested in the people and story, and it is still one of the best, if not THE best, written show on TV airing today. But I fear another season of time shifting will further confuse the 90% who are casual viewers, making the journey, hence the payoff, more difficult.


----------



## MrGreg (May 2, 2003)

This may have been covered before, but I don't understand why Sun decided to go back to the island. Yeah, I know she wants to find Jin, but doesn't she have a kid to take care of?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I knew that was the same compass. So where did it come from...?


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Maybe I am misremembering things, but didn't Richard bring the compass with him when he "tested" young locke?

I don't remember exactly how that scene went, and maybe I am smeeking commentary from a long time ago, but nonetheless, I remembered this scene when I was watching this morning.....


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I just checked on the Lost Wiki that the compass in the pics with young Locke is supposedly not the same compass as the time traveling one.......oh well.


----------



## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

goMO said:


> so the island told Locke where and when he would find himself. so presumably, the island also told locke to kill jacob?? jacob vs. the island??
> 
> i'm so lost...


So what is up with Richard?

The guy is obviously special somehow, he has been alive and unaged for at least 40 years and has left he island several times.

Others on the island seem to have aged, Rousseau for example.


----------



## sirfergy (May 18, 2002)

It should be the same one since I thought he gave it to him in 1954.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Some random thoughts...
> 
> * I vaguely recall them talking about moving the H-bomb, and Richard said something about how hard it was to move a 40,000 lb bomb and we'd move it the same way we moved it the first time. But I don't think he/they ever made it clear what that was. Smokey?
> 
> ...


You may very well get your wish:
(mild spoilers at this link):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30621363/


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I'm really confused because at the end I swear Locke told Ben that he was going to see Jacob so he could kill him with him meaning Ben.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> I'm really confused because at the end I swear Locke told Ben that he was going to see Jacob so he could kill him with him meaning Ben.


You need to stop swearing. When Locke uses the pronoun 'him' in speaking directly TO Ben, it refers to Jacob in this instance. Otherwise he would have said "I'm going to kill you" meaning Ben.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BTW, no comments about Miles' revelation about his father?
At least he has some peace about that now.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> BTW, no comments about Miles' revelation about his father?
> At least he has some peace about that now.


:up::up::up:

Was very glad to see that.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

philw1776 said:


> You need to stop swearing. When Locke uses the pronoun 'him' in speaking directly TO Ben, it refers to Jacob in this instance. Otherwise he would have said "I'm going to kill you" meaning Ben.


It makes sense now but when I saw it I felt like the comment was directed at Ben.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Nobody else had the feeling that Locke is going to expose Jacob as a fake? My whole feeling, based on his speech to the Others was that he was essentially telling them there IS no Jacob, and they've been duped. That is why he's bringing them along and making sure that Ben and Richard come along so he could prove it. That whole thing about "you all have been taking orders from someone named Jacob" gave me that feeling. Plus Richard saying to Ben that Locke is going to be trouble. My theory is that Ben and Richard have been holding the mystical Jacob over the Others' heads as a way to maintain the power structure. I also think that when Locke gets to Jacob's cabin, they are going to try and kill Locke. Not sure where the whole Help Me falls into this, but it could have something to do with time travel, or something unexplained yet.


Dang, you stole my theory!

In addition to what you've mentioned, the confrontational and cavalier way that Locke tells Ben he's going to kill Jacob seemed to me like a way of saying to Ben: "I know Jacob's a fake, and now I'm going to go expose that to all the Others, so you're little ruse is dead."

I don't remember the "Help Me" scene(s) all that well, but could that have just been some kind of elaborate trick by Ben and/or Richard to fool Locke into believing in Jacob?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> Dang, you stole my theory!
> 
> In addition to what you've mentioned, the confrontational and cavalier way that Locke tells Ben he's going to kill Jacob seemed to me like a way of saying to Ben: "I know Jacob's a fake, and now I'm going to go expose that to all the Others, so you're little ruse is dead."
> 
> I don't remember the "Help Me" scene(s) all that well, but could that have just been some kind of elaborate trick by Ben and/or Richard to fool Locke into believing in Jacob?


That'd be a pretty elaborate trick, given that Ben's reaction to John hearing Jacob say "help me!" was to shoot him in the stomach and leave him for dead!


----------



## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

I'm sure it's just me, but it took a while for me to realize that when Ben and Richard were talking near the end (Richard: I think Locke is going to be trouble"), Ben's statement "why do you think I tried to kill him" was referring to the first, unsuccessful attempt to kill Locke (when he shot him and dumped him in the mass Dharma grave), as opposed to the second, _temporarily_ successful killing of Locke in 2007. Not a plot you find in many shows...


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

vman said:


> ....to the second, _temporarily_ successful killing ...


This captures what I love about LOST. Talk about a convoluted crazy set of circumstances that has to transpire in order for the above sentence to make sense! And yet it does. I'll be sad to see this series conclude, but I am SO looking forward to the final season.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

eMarkM said:


> I agree with previous posters in Lost threads that it would be an old Sci-Fi cliche if this all comes down to "changing the future". I really like the "what happened, happened" rules. I really hope there's a twist here we don't see coming.


In this week's podcast they mention a deleted scene that explains Faraday's theory of changing the past.


Spoiler



He demonstrates by throwing a pebble into the lake, and then throwing a big rock in and saying that while the pebble can be course corrected, a boulder might make so many waves that a new stream would be created. If I've got it right it might be how they're rationalizing a big change....or not. They said the scene was deleted because it was too long. Something to watch for on the DVD's.





astrohip said:


> Some random thoughts...
> 
> * I vaguely recall them talking about moving the H-bomb, and Richard said something about how hard it was to move a 40,000 lb bomb and we'd move it the same way we moved it the first time. But I don't think he/they ever made it clear what that was. Smokey?


I assumed that before Dharma was there they just dug a hole and put the bomb in from the top. Why they put it in their tunnels, who knows? Then Dharma built a village over it. Are these the same tunnels smokey was in? Do they go all over the island?

Are they going to detonate the bomb there--not much choice unless it's Smokey, or something supernatural. Aren't they a long way from the Swan? It doesn't matter where the explosion is? If they do this, I assume Dharma will be done, so no more traveling bunny experiments. What exactly was the thing about this island that threatens the existence of the world? Is it something that the Others are doing? Dharma? The Losties? I don't see how stopping the plane crash fixes everything. And Daniel didn't know the bomb was directly under Dharma, so he wasn't counting on eliminating them.

And, where are Rose and Bernard? I thought we were promised that we would know what happened to them, but no one asks, they surely weren't with Dharma, and no sign of them with the others. Maybe they discovered that Rose's cure is permanent, and went home on the sub. You'd think they would have said something by now.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

astrohip said:


> ...
> * And speaking of finales & seasons, my hope is that next week reunites the Losties, and we can conclude the time travel stories. I know several people who watch LOST religiously and truly love the show, but are *not* Lostaholics (never read forums, don't recall every past scene, etc). And while they still love it, these people are very confused. The time travel story lines have left them with almost no idea of what is what and who is where. But they watch because they are invested in the people and story, and it is still one of the best, if not THE best, written show on TV airing today. But I fear another season of time shifting will further confuse the 90% who are casual viewers, making the journey, hence the payoff, more difficult.


Wow....you really hit the nail on the head there, Hip. My sister falls into this category. She almost gave up on Lost earlier this year, but she's plodded along, watching the captioned repeats to try to gain a better understanding of what's going on. She's in it until the end, but she gets frustrated just as you mentioned.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> And, where are Rose and Bernard? I thought we were promised that we would know what happened to them, but no one asks, they surely weren't with Dharma, and no sign of them with the others. Maybe they discovered that Rose's cure is permanent, and went home on the sub. You'd think they would have said something by now.


The last time we saw Rose and Bernard was on the beach in late 2004/early 2005 just after the Island was moved by Ben. Locke, Jin, Miles, Charlotte, and Daniel started skipping around through time, but we have no evidence that Rose and Bernard went time skipping too. So presumably they stuck around on the Island and maybe set up a camp with the other 815 survivors, or maybe integrated with the Others. There was mention in this episode that there was a group at the Temple, so maybe that's where they are.

Neither Dharma nor the sub were ever on the Island at the same time as Rose and Bernard, so they couldn't have gone with Dharma or left on the sub.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Wow....you really hit the nail on the head there, Hip. My sister falls into this category. She almost gave up on Lost earlier this year, but she's plodded along, watching the captioned repeats to try to gain a better understanding of what's going on. She's in it until the end, but she gets frustrated just as you mentioned.


My wife expressed the same thing last night during this episode. She said, "I'm so over this show. Nothing ever changes. We never find out anything." I can't really sympathize with her, because it all makes perfect sense to me and I'm extremely engrossed in the story, but it shows that there are others who watch religiously who are not as engrossed because they just don't get everything that's going on.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> If they do this, I assume Dharma will be done, so no more traveling bunny experiments.


They haven't even done the time traveling bunnies experiments yet.. The Orchid station hasn't really been built yet - all they did is dig a hole.

What happened happened. They may or not detonate the H-bomb, but it won't change anything. Faraday thought this was a "new" idea of his that hadn't been tried - that he used his freewill to decide to try to negate this energy by approaching the Hostiles to tell them to detonate the H-bomb. It turns out he's ALWAYS done that then, and he always was killed by his mother then, and his mother always felt sad before sending him to the island, and his mother always told Widmore outside that she'd just sacrificed her son by sending him back knowing full well that [she will/did kill him back then]. His attempt always happened. Jack always heard his plan and carried it forward.

Richard even remembers it all, including seeing them. The H-bomb will probably cause (or IS) the Incident, and it was all from trying to muck with the past..


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> The last time we saw Rose and Bernard was on the beach in late 2004/early 2005 just after the Island was moved by Ben. Locke, Jin, Miles, Charlotte, and Daniel started skipping around through time, but we have no evidence that Rose and Bernard went time skipping too. So presumably they stuck around on the Island and maybe set up a camp with the other 815 survivors, or maybe integrated with the Others. There was mention in this episode that there was a group at the Temple, so maybe that's where they are.


I think you're wrong. I remember Bernard being very concerned, explaining that yeah this is where there camp was supposed to be, but it had all disappeared! Then eventually Daniel explained that their camp didn't disappear - it just hadn't been built yet.

Bernard/Rose did at least one jump - to before they built their camp in 2004. I forget if it was the 50s or not, but basically a whole bunch of 'extras' were killed with flaming arrows, but presumably not Rose or Bernard (or they'd have shown that).


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> My wife expressed the same thing last night during this episode. She said, "I'm so over this show. Nothing ever changes. We never find out anything." I can't really sympathize with her, because it all makes perfect sense to me and I'm extremely engrossed in the story, but it shows that there are others who watch religiously who are not as engrossed because they just don't get everything that's going on.


Dude, explain it to her! We find out like EVERYTHING.. At the end of season 1 people kept asking "what's that hatch thing? we don't even know. what's in there?".. We now not only know who was in there, but what his history was, and why the hatch itself was built! In season 3 people kept asking why they were piling rocks up, and later we see a nice runway that the later plane gets to crash into! In season 2 people kept asking what would happen when the button wasn't pushed (and why anyone was pushing a button in the first place), and we now know all of that! For several seasons we've had people asking what the smoke monster is, and that's been completely explai.. er.. ok, well that one's still a mystery, but they have a whole season to go, and at least we know it's Egyptian-times-old and has been around for a long long time!

Most of the time when I hear someone say there are no answers, I rattle off a bunch of things that we didn't know like that that we now know, and they seem to come around. 

Loving this season. Can't wait for next week, but I'll be sad to see the 2nd-to-last season end (because this was really when the good stuff happened).


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I'm confused... aren't there two compasses now somehow? Richard gave Lock one, and then different timeline Locke gave the same richard another one. Where'd the second compass come from? I might have been paying inadequate amounts of attention last night.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> I think you're wrong. I remember Bernard being very concerned, explaining that yeah this is where there camp was supposed to be, but it had all disappeared! Then eventually Daniel explained that their camp didn't disappear - it just hadn't been built yet.
> 
> Bernard/Rose did at least one jump - to before they built their camp in 2004. I forget if it was the 50s or not, but basically a whole bunch of 'extras' were killed with flaming arrows, but presumably not Rose or Bernard (or they'd have shown that).


Yeah, the last we saw of the two was right after the first flash and Bernard comes running out looking for Rose very worried. They all congragate on the beach trying to figure things out and redshirt guy started freaking out because their camp was gone and that's when they got attacked with the flaming arrows. They split into two groups as they were running away. Haven't seen Rose and Bernard since.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Even though the face and hands on compass that Richard gives to Locke are slightly different that the one he shows Locke as a boy; I believe they are supposed to be the same compass. I believe the subtle difference is either a prop error or one of those subtle continuity errors that seem a little to common to be accidental...

Regardless of whether it was the same one shown to Locke as a boy; there is only one compass changing hands between Locke and Richard.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

vman said:


> I'm sure it's just me, but it took a while for me to realize that when Ben and Richard were talking near the end (Richard: I think Locke is going to be trouble"), Ben's statement "why do you think I tried to kill him" was referring to the first, unsuccessful attempt to kill Locke (when he shot him and dumped him in the mass Dharma grave), as opposed to the second, _temporarily_ successful killing of Locke in 2007. Not a plot you find in many shows...


I don't think it was. I took it as Ben confirming to Richard that he killed him and he still came back to life.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I hope Rose and Bernard don't just turn up dead in the caves (to become the Adam & Eve skeletons). I think that would be lame.


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

I'm about as happy with this show as Juliet was when she saw Freckles crawl down that ladder. This show has milked its mystery to the point of frustration and confusion.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Neither Dharma nor the sub were ever on the Island at the same time as Rose and Bernard, so they couldn't have gone with Dharma or left on the sub.


There were 2 groups of people that we knew of both traveling to the same times with each jump. I assumed Rose and Bernard ended up in 1974 like everyone else, and would eventually join up with Sawyer and Juliet in Dharmaville. I wonder if they needed a dentist? Or they may have been given the chance to leave on the sub like Sawyer was. It's just odd that we haven't seen Hurley or someone ask where they are.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> I'm confused... aren't there two compasses now somehow? Richard gave Lock one, and then different timeline Locke gave the same richard another one. Where'd the second compass come from? I might have been paying inadequate amounts of attention last night.


I'm a bit confused too and need to nail it down in my head, but I THINK they just confirmed last night that the watch has magically appeared out of nowhere.

If that's the case (Locke gives Richard the same watch that Richard later gives to Locke), and we can't track down where it was manufactured, then that opens up two possibilities in my mind:
1) The writers overlooked it, which I have trouble believing but I can still imagine... They might have thought it was just a cool idea, without realizing just how consequential that would be
or
2) That's actually evidence that there was a timeline "before"(alongside?) this where someone initially manufactured the compass, someone purchased it, somehow it was introduced in the story, something changed, and now the compass is passed to someone else that sends it in the loop. For example, if Richard initially obtained it as a gift from Widmore in the late 50s, keeps it for 50+ years, Locke in 2007 says "go help me over there" (not mentioning the compass), Richard goes over and figures he should help Locke convince early Richard since this Locke seems too confused - so he gives him the compass from Widmore, Locke goes back, gives the compass to Richard in the early 50s, Widmore later sees the compass and therefore decides against buying Richard a compass now in the late 50s, Richard holds onto the gift from Locke until 2007 when Locke says "do you still have the compass I gave you in 1950?", they march out into the jungle, that night Locke says "go help me over there" (still not mentioning the compass), Richard goes over and thinks he should help Locke convince early Richard since this Locke seems too confused, and what better way to convince former self than to give him the compass that he remembers receiving (and being convinced by), so he gives Locke the compass to give to himself. Now you have a tied knot, Widmore's out of the picture, and the compass always came from either John or Richard depending how you look at it, and by examining the events in time you can't determine who it came from.

That would mean that things do change. Again - either the writers put this compass in as a hint that that was true, or they made a mistake. This time, I'm not sure which I believe.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

The compass is a paradoxical object (or Jinn) that is tied to the time loop:



> LOCKE: You still have that compass I gave you?
> 
> RICHARD: A little rusty, but she can still find north.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> That would mean that things do change. Again - either the writers put this compass in as a hint that that was true, or they made a mistake. This time, I'm not sure which I believe.


I'm optimistic the writers are keeping better track of things than that. Better than me, obviously forgetting a scene with Christian and Locke!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Dude, explain it to her! We find out like EVERYTHING.. At the end of season 1 people kept asking "what's that hatch thing? we don't even know. what's in there?".. We now not only know who was in there, but what his history was, and why the hatch itself was built! In season 3 people kept asking why they were piling rocks up, and later we see a nice runway that the later plane gets to crash into! In season 2 people kept asking what would happen when the button wasn't pushed (and why anyone was pushing a button in the first place), and we now know all of that! For several seasons we've had people asking what the smoke monster is, and that's been completely explai.. er.. ok, well that one's still a mystery, but they have a whole season to go, and at least we know it's Egyptian-times-old and has been around for a long long time!
> 
> Most of the time when I hear someone say there are no answers, I rattle off a bunch of things that we didn't know like that that we now know, and they seem to come around.
> 
> Loving this season. Can't wait for next week, but I'll be sad to see the 2nd-to-last season end (because this was really when the good stuff happened).


Oh, I totally agree with you, and thought her statement was ridiculous, but she wouldn't have the patience for me to explain it to her. If she cared to figure everything out, she knows she can ask, but she doesn't, and I suspect there are millions of others like her.


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Not wacko at all. There's nothing so far to contradict it, anyway. I'm not sure why John would so strongly dislike flashlights. OTOH, he never approved of Ben letting the Others use the Dharma housing and technology, so maybe.
> 
> Oh, well in "The Room"
> 
> ...


Thanx.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Jeeters said:


> So, besides for the sick enjoyment of it, why beat up Sawyer to try and get info out of him instead of just getting Oldham the LSD guy that they used for Sayid?





jwehman said:


> And just how did Sawyer and Juliet go from being cut, bruised, bloody messes (at least Sawyer, but Juliet also took one on the mouth), to being free from any blemish whatsoever in the sub?





brermike said:


> They were still cut and bruised when on the sub. I know this because I noticed the large welt/bruise on Juliet's mouth when they were being handcuffed to the table on the sub.


This episode really overdid the bloody mess from punches to the face for Jack & Sawyer/Lafleur and Juliet. They bleed easier than a pro wrestler who slashes his own face with a razor blade before the match.



Fool Me Twice said:


> Ben may end up being a Gollum figure in this story.


I sorta' liked that analogy.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> Again - either the writers put this compass in as a hint that that was true, or they made a mistake. This time, I'm not sure which I believe.


I think all the emphasis on the compass is important. It's just too complicated for me to get my mind around though.

Didn't someone (Sayid or Locke) previously try to use a compass on the Island and discover that it could NOT find North?

Interesting that in this episode Richard almost repeats his sarcastic remark to John. 
Previously: 
John: "what is it?" 
Richard: "its a compass" 
John : "what does it do?" 
Richard: "It points North, John." 
And now: 
Richard : "Shes a little rusty but she can still find North."


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

What are the manifestations of the Island that we've seen? There is the smoke monster, Jacob (may not be real, but I think its something due to what Locke heard), Christian, and Richard (I count Richard because of his immortality.) Am I missing any? Is Jacob actually Christian (whom I think is actually Jack, aged naturally from 1977.)


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Philosofy said:


> What are the manifestations of the Island that we've seen? There is the smoke monster, Jacob (may not be real, but I think its something due to what Locke heard), Christian, and Richard (I count Richard because of his immortality.) Am I missing any? Is Jacob actually Christian (whom I think is actually Jack, aged naturally from 1977.)


(Some of these are arguable, but): Ecko's brother, Walt, Kate's horse, Dave.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

The compass has me confused.

Did the compass come from Locke originally? Lostpedia says he brought two compasses to Australia. One he gave to Sayid. Lostpedia doesn't mention what happened to the other compass.

Was the compass Locke gave to Richard in 1954 the same one he brought to the island?

I can't seem to get the origin of the compass.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

teknikel said:


> The compass has me confused.
> 
> Did the compass come from Locke originally? Lostpedia says he brought two compasses to Australia. One he gave to Sayid. Lostpedia doesn't mention what happened to the other compass.
> 
> ...


Please refresh my memory. Was Sayid able to get the compass to point North?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

teknikel said:


> The compass has me confused.
> 
> Did the compass come from Locke originally? Lostpedia says he brought two compasses to Australia. One he gave to Sayid. Lostpedia doesn't mention what happened to the other compass.
> 
> ...


2 compasses ... isn't that like a guy with 2 watches?  It must be a Moebius Compass - it has no beginning, and no end. You know, they've actually made a time mistake here. The compass that Richard gives to Locke before he goes to 1954 should be the original, newer version of the compass. They had Richard give Locke the old version instead and created our origin problem, as latrobe7 mentioned. Which gets us to TAsunder's point - Richard should have 2 compasses, unless he lost the one Locke gave him in 1954 in the Jughead explosion or Sayid borrowed it to build a MacGyver timer/detonator. 



tiams said:


> Please refresh my memory. Was Sayid able to get the compass to point North?


Hard to say. He could get it to point north, it's just that "north" was off by a significant amount. He said it was either due to some kind of magnetic disturbance, or the dang thing was busted. So take your pick I guess.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

Delta13 said:


> Hard to say. He could get it to point north, it's just that "north" was off by a significant amount. He said it was either due to some kind of magnetic disturbance, or the dang thing was busted. So take your pick I guess.


Yes. The compass was incorrectly pointing North due to the magnetic anomly of the Island. However, the compass could still be used to find North once it was determined how many degrees off it was.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Am I the only one who didn't mind finding out about the finale, and now is just enjoying the speculation, watching who's wrong and who's more wrong?


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> What are the manifestations of the Island that we've seen? There is the smoke monster, Jacob (may not be real, but I think its something due to what Locke heard), Christian, and Richard (I count Richard because of his immortality.) Am I missing any? Is Jacob actually Christian (whom I think is actually Jack, aged naturally from 1977.)





danterner said:


> (Some of these are arguable, but): Ecko's brother, Walt, Kate's horse, Dave.


I'm fairly certain Dave was not an island manifestation but a Hugo hallucination. And I think Kate's horse was real too. I'd have to go back and look. And did we actually SEE Jacob? I thought so at one point, but watched that episode again recently and couldn't see him anywhere. (EDIT: I guess so, because I just googled images of that scene)

But there was also Shannon, I think, and Claire. Did Boone appear also as a manifestation or was he only in dreams and visions?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> The last time we saw Rose and Bernard was on the beach in late 2004/early 2005 just after the Island was moved by Ben. Locke, Jin, Miles, Charlotte, and Daniel started skipping around through time, but we have no evidence that Rose and Bernard went time skipping too. So presumably they stuck around on the Island and maybe set up a camp with the other 815 survivors, or maybe integrated with the Others. There was mention in this episode that there was a group at the Temple, so maybe that's where they are.
> 
> Neither Dharma nor the sub were ever on the Island at the same time as Rose and Bernard, so they couldn't have gone with Dharma or left on the sub.


I guess that could all make sense, but my thought was, when time skipped on the island, didn't it skip for everyone? It did for those that were together (Sawyer, Hurley, charlotte, et al) so why wouldn't the other survivors be caught up in it?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> My wife expressed the same thing last night during this episode. She said, "I'm so over this show. Nothing ever changes. We never find out anything." I can't really sympathize with her, because it all makes perfect sense to me and I'm extremely engrossed in the story, but it shows that there are others who watch religiously who are not as engrossed because they just don't get everything that's going on.


I get that a lot from people I know. They liked it when it was essentially a survival story but when it got too weird, they just got confused and gave up. I really don't like time travel stories (the real sci fi types...not like Back to the Future), but for some reason, I liked this for the most part, but I have to agree, it has gotten WAY too confusing over the last few weeks, and the only reason I understand most of it is from coming here.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

The problem with Lost's method of answering questions, is that in the interval between bringing up the question and answering the question, they've raised other questions. Or raise more questions in the answer.

The two best examples to my mind:
1. What was down the hatch in Season 1. When they show you, it raised ALL sorts of other questions.
2. How / why did John Locke die, when he was seen in the casket at the end of Season 4. By the time they showed how it happened, we still weren't sure on the WHY it happened, and a bunch of new questions had been brought up.

Don't get me wrong. I love this show. But I see why some people continue to play the "they don't answer questions" card.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Big_Daddy said:


> The problem with Lost's method of answering questions, is that in the interval between bringing up the question and answering the question, they've raised other questions. Or raise more questions in the answer.
> 
> The two best examples to my mind:
> 1. What was down the hatch in Season 1. When they show you, it raised ALL sorts of other questions.
> ...


And sometimes it takes 2-3 seasons to answer some questions that are obviously begging to be answered sooner.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

I don't see how on earth they will answer all questions with just one season left.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I guess that could all make sense, but my thought was, when time skipped on the island, didn't it skip for everyone? It did for those that were together (Sawyer, Hurley, charlotte, et al) so why wouldn't the other survivors be caught up in it?


It didn't skip for Richard or for Danielle. They watched people disappear.


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

tiams said:


> I don't see how on earth they will answer all questions with just one season left.


I think you're right. Only nineteen hours to go and it feels like they're still setting up the story. It makes me wonder why so many episodes were wasted on crap like Ana Lucia, Sawyer & Freckles locked in cages, efforts to leave the island, etc. Flashbacks, flash forwards, time travel in all directions...     :down:


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## acej80 (Jan 19, 2003)

ElJay said:


> I think you're right. Only nineteen hours to go and it feels like they're still setting up the story. It makes me wonder why so many episodes were wasted on crap like Ana Lucia, Sawyer & Freckles locked in cages, efforts to leave the island, etc. Flashbacks, flash forwards, time travel in all directions...     :down:


I think a lot of that did become "filler" because the writers didn't know how many shows they had to write for. Once they worked out with ABC how many seasons there was going to be, the pace of the show has picked up, imho.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Maybe Richard broke the compass John had given him, but he didn't want to hurt John's feelings, so he told John the new one he got was the one he had been given.

Or maybe someone borrowed Richard's compass without asking, but then accidentally broke it, so he or she replaced it with another one so Richard wouldn't find out. Unfortunately, the new compass had not traveled through time, and thus did not have the correct properties to properly regulate the detonation of the hydrogen bomb, which, ironically, contributed to the compass having those properties in the first place. In the end, everyone learned a valuable lesson on the importance of honesty and owning up to one's mistakes.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> Maybe Richard broke the compass John had given him, but he didn't want to hurt John's feelings, so he told John the new one he got was the one he had been given.
> 
> Or maybe someone borrowed Richard's compass without asking, but then accidentally broke it, so he or she replaced it with another one so Richard wouldn't find out. Unfortunately, the new compass had not traveled through time, and thus did not have the correct properties to properly regulate the detonation of the hydrogen bomb, which, ironically, contributed to the compass having those properties in the first place. In the end, everyone learned a valuable lesson on the importance of honesty and owning up to one's mistakes.


 If this series ends with a freeze-frame of them all having a hearty laugh over the hijinx that have ensued, and the lessons they've learned, I'm going to cry.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> What are the manifestations of the Island that we've seen? There is the smoke monster, Jacob (may not be real, but I think its something due to what Locke heard), Christian, and Richard (I count Richard because of his immortality.) Am I missing any? Is Jacob actually Christian (whom I think is actually Jack, aged naturally from 1977.)





danterner said:


> (Some of these are arguable, but): Ecko's brother, Walt, Kate's horse, Dave.


There are the mysterious whispers in the jungle (usually during a rain event).


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

danterner said:


> If this series ends with a freeze-frame of them all having a hearty laugh over the hijinx that have ensued, and the lessons they've learned, I'm going to cry.


LOL.. I actually would love to see some DVD-extra where they show like 10 alternate "horrible" endings like that, filmed with the actual actors.

Boon: "Hey Frogurt! Wake up! WAKE UP!"

Frogurt: "Where am I?"

Boon: You were dreaming! We're going to be late!

Frogurt: (dazed).. "It was all a dream! Hey what's that black rock over there?"

Boon: NO! DON'T TOUCH IT! IT'S EVIL!!!

Frogurt touches a black rock and explodes

Hurley approaches Boon and says "Dude.. you've got a bit of Frogurt on you."

Everyone smiles, starts laughing, and freeze frame. Play jazzy quick version of the heading-off-to-danger Lost theme, then fade to black.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tiams said:


> I don't see how on earth they will answer all questions with just one season left.


They won't. You just have to accept that fact. If you were to make a list of all the questions this show has presented and hasn't answered, I'd guess that we'll get good answers to less than half of them before it's all over. The simple fact is that the fan community has created questions about stuff that was never meant to be mysterious, and so there is stuff out there that we treat as unanswered questions that the writers will simply gloss over.

So if you're going to be unhappy if every question isn't answered, you'd better start gearing up for it now. But if you can be content with watching an entertaining story and having a mystery mostly solved, you'll enjoy it much more.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> They won't. You just have to accept that fact. If you were to make a list of all the questions this show has presented and hasn't answered, I'd guess that we'll get good answers to less than half of them before it's all over. The simple fact is that the fan community has created questions about stuff that was never meant to be mysterious, and so there is stuff out there that we treat as unanswered questions that the writers will simply gloss over.


I'm guessing they will answer less than half of the things that even they intended to be mysterious. Even if they already have the answer. And of the half they do answer, many will be incomplete (similar to the meaning of the numbers being a totally unsatisfactory explanation for the numbers).


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

danterner said:


> If this series ends with a freeze-frame of them all having a hearty laugh over the hijinx that have ensued, and the lessons they've learned, I'm going to cry.


And I will cry too, since I'll be needing a new TV at that exact moment.  (and we'll all need shrinks if Jeff's vision somehow came true and wasn't an outtake)


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

aindik said:


> It didn't skip for Richard or for Danielle. They watched people disappear.


Only the Losties skipped, but all of them that we saw skipped to the same times. Locke and Jin were alone in different places, but ended up the same time as Sawyer and his bunch. The last time we saw the rest of them was running from the flaming arrows. The only people on the island when the event started who didn't skip were the Others. Wonder why? 



ElJay said:


> It makes me wonder why so many episodes were wasted on crap like Ana Lucia, Sawyer & Freckles locked in cages


I loved the fish biscuits. Don't cut that!

I get that Miles's Dad had to be nasty to his wife to get her to leave, but surely someone from Dharma would have seen to it that she had money. Why did they have to live in poverty? If Chang died on the island, surely someone would have notified her, and she would've understood why he had her leave.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Am I the only one who didn't mind finding out about the finale, and now is just enjoying the speculation, watching who's wrong and who's more wrong?


Guess so. 

The first couple seasons, I use to scour the spoiler sites, reading everything I could. Then I realized it was more fun to be shocked... SHOCKED, by what happens than to know it's coming.

I'm not spoilerphobic, but I no longer look for them.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Anyone think they were playing it like Eloise is pregnant in 1977?

Maybe this is why they showed Daniel as the youngest person ever to graduate from Oxford? He'd have to be pretty young at graduation to have been a physics professor or even a PhD candidate at Oxford in 1996 at the ripe old age of 19.

Unless there's been some time travel in Daniel's past.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

aindik said:


> Anyone think they were playing it like Eloise is pregnant in 1977?


I thought so. Didn't Widmore touch her belly or something...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> Anyone think they were playing it like Eloise is pregnant in 1977?


She was most definitely prego with Daniel during this episode. That was pretty clear.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> She was most definitely prego with Daniel during this episode. That was pretty clear.


Then how do we explain Daniel, born in 1977, being a professional academic in 1996? Just how young was he when he graduated Oxford? 16? That's some beard for that age. 

Also, it doesn't have to be Daniel. Could be Penny. Do we know who her mother is?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> Then how do we explain Daniel, born in 1977, being a professional academic in 1996? Just how young was he when he graduated Oxford? 16? That's some beard for that age.
> 
> Also, it doesn't have to be Daniel. Could be Penny. Do we know who her mother is?


You're right. It doesn't necessarily have to be Daniel, although it seemed pretty clear that she hadn't had any children yet, and as you say, if she waits much longer to have Daniel, it's going to make the timeline even more unbelievable.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> You're right. It doesn't necessarily have to be Daniel, although it seemed pretty clear that she hadn't had any children yet, and as you say, if she waits much longer to have Daniel, it's going to make the timeline even more unbelievable.


Add to this the fact that she should be 40 in 1977 if she was 17 in 1954.


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

aindik said:


> Then how do we explain Daniel, born in 1977, being a professional academic in 1996? Just how young was he when he graduated Oxford? 16? That's some beard for that age.
> 
> Also, it doesn't have to be Daniel. Could be Penny. Do we know who her mother is?


It couldn't be Penny. When Widmore was voted off the island part of the explanation was that he'd fathered a child off the island.

But I agree... Daniel's age keeps bothering me. I'd believe the whole prodigy thing if it weren't for the beard. That and if he was really so young they'd have been better casting a teenager in the part. I assumed he was in his early 20s, meaning little Daniel is running around the tents somewhere or off in England at a boarding school. And, of course, the latter begs the question where they'd get the money.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

PKurmas said:


> It couldn't be Penny. When Widmore was voted off the island part of the explanation was that he'd fathered a child off the island.


Except that we don't know when that happened in the timeline, except that it appeared to be after the Purge, because the Others were in Dharmaville. According to Lostpedia, the Purge was in 1992, IIRC. So Widmore could have fathered Penny off the Island at some other time, either before or after Daniel.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

PKurmas said:


> And, of course, the latter begs the question where they'd get the money.


It's easy to get money when you know people from the future.

Like Sawyer said. "We'll buy Microsoft. We'll bet the Cowboys in the '78 Superbowl."


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that we don't know when that happened in the timeline, except that it appeared to be after the Purge, because the Others were in Dharmaville. According to Lostpedia, the Purge was in 1992, IIRC. So Widmore could have fathered Penny off the Island at some other time, either before or after Daniel.


Certainly... but just because he was ejected after the Purge doesn't mean he wasn't going off island, making money & making babies before then. There hasn't been a single shred of evidence that I've seen to suggest that Penny was born on the island. The simplest possible explanation is that she's the one mentioned when Widmore was booted.


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## AeneaGames (May 2, 2009)

Steveknj said:


> Nobody else had the feeling that Locke is going to expose Jacob as a fake? My whole feeling, based on his speech to the Others was that he was essentially telling them there IS no Jacob, and they've been duped. That is why he's bringing them along and making sure that Ben and Richard come along so he could prove it. That whole thing about "you all have been taking orders from someone named Jacob" gave me that feeling. Plus Richard saying to Ben that Locke is going to be trouble. My theory is that Ben and Richard have been holding the mystical Jacob over the Others' heads as a way to maintain the power structure. I also think that when Locke gets to Jacob's cabin, they are going to try and kill Locke. Not sure where the whole Help Me falls into this, but it could have something to do with time travel, or something unexplained yet.


Same here, I had the idea he meant he is going to kill the idea of Jacob...


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I think Widmore got his startup money from the Black Rock.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

AeneaGames said:


> Same here, I had the idea he meant he is going to kill the idea of Jacob...


We all saw the same episode, but we've taken such different things from it.
I'm taking John's comment that he's figured out Jacob is trapped, and the gray ash they spread to summon him keeps him from being able to go to where ever he's supposed to be going. That's why Locke heard him say 'help me" by "killing him" Locke is setting him free to move to the next plane of existence.

or I could be totally and completely off-base..


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

tiams said:


> I don't see how on earth they will answer all questions with just one season left.


This will always be the one major flaw for the show in my opinion (aside from this time travel season )... They've set up a billion mysteries with no real chance to pay them off...even stuff they didn't intentionally setup but fans decided they had to know ie, the numbers. People are BEGGING for a explanation for "why" the numbers are cursed. What could the writer's possibly come up with to explain that? So they came up with the idea of the Valenzetti equation which, from what I know, was designed to predict the end of the world. Ok, fine. Done. But people are still like "What are the numbers??"... Then we see that they're the serial number on the hatch... I don't get what else they can possibly explain about them.

Other stuff too like "what is the island?" or "why doesn't hurley lose weight?" 
These are things that can't be answered, nor do they really matter.

The thing they did drop the ball on is Libby, but that's not entirely their fault, since the actress was unable to come back for more episodes. Which I find weird because she did have time to come back for her cameo in Michael's episode last season. Why introduce a mystery like that without a specific plan in place to pay it off?

I don't know, I like writing in my spare time and I would never introduce something I didn't plan on paying off, I don't see the point. Any writer can just be like "ok, this plume of smoke scans people's memories then decides if they live or die", but _explaining _that is much harder. Kind of their job though.

I've actually always felt bad for them because their whole inception of this show was originally CHARACTERS stranded on an island dealing with mysterious things...it was all about the people. But then fans got WAY more attached to the STORY--the plot, the mysteries, the numbers, the monster, the island, etc. So anytime the writers do anything character driven, they get murdered for delivering horrible filler. I'm sure they're not complaining, but I can see how if setting out to do one thing but being kind of forced into something else could be annoying. Fans are almost never happy.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Boon: NO! DON'T TOUCH IT! IT'S EVIL!!!
> 
> Frogurt touches a black rock and explodes


Excellent, excellent reference.

:up:


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Bryanmc said:


> Excellent, excellent reference.
> 
> :up:


I agree, and meant to say something about that. :up:

And kudos for even managing to make a "black rock" reference work there. And now that this series is all about time travel, it's especially apt. Awesome, all around. It's been 30 years since I've seen Time Bandits, but that scene really scarred me as a child and I still recall it vividly.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

The official podcast is available a little early from DarkUFO. Lindelof and Cuse address a couple of my favorite questions; the compass and the comic-con video with Faraday and Chang.


Spoiler



There is in depth discussion of the compass starting about 10:10 into the podcast; a couple of bottom-line quotes:

*Lindelof*: "What we have done with the compass is absolutely intentional in terms of the, sort of, broader themes of the show...

...it is purposely perplexing ...but it also, it has no origin... the fact of the matter is Alpert holds onto it for 50 years... it is in a mobius loop; an infinite loop."

*Cuse*: "The idea that it is in a mobius loop is a very intentional motif that we are executing here...

...the fact that the compass magically exists between these two characters, we think is just a cool piece of, sort of, mystery and magic."

After the compass, they discuss the comic-con video, starting around 13:10.

It was Faraday in the video with Chang; but the storyline changed between comic-con and the season and the branch with Faraday making the film got dropped. They also reiterated that only what happens on the show itself is canon; so basically it's a "whoopsie".

There is also a pretty funny joke about who/what Jacob is.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

When Richard is working on his ship-in-a-bottle, he's wearing glasses. Have we seen them before? Is he possibly aging? Usually needing glasses for close work happens in your 40's.

It looks like Radzinski is going to be the guy who insists on drilling, which may explain why he spends the rest of his life in the hatch pressing the button. 

John told Sun that Jacob could "absolutely" tell them how to get Jin and the others back. Then he told Ben that had nothing to do with finding Jacob. Is it required to be a bare faced liar to lead these Others?

I thought before you needed to be sedated to travel in and out on the sub? What happened to that? Are they just tougher now?

If detonating the bomb is what always happened, then old Eloise in LA remembers doing it and survived somehow, and purposely sent Jack back to make sure it happened. If it's a new timeline, and she doesn't survive, and she is pregnant with Daniel......then he never exists. I never got the idea at all that she was pregnant, probably because I had already figured that Daniel must be a small boy at this time.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> John told Sun that Jacob could "absolutely" tell them how to get Jin and the others back. Then he told Ben that had nothing to do with finding Jacob. Is it required to be a bare faced liar to lead these Others?


Though killing Jacob may be the primary reason John is going to see him, getting the other Losties back may be an effect of killing him, or John might gain the knowledge of how to retrieve them when he confronts Jacob. So, it's not necessarily a lie. He might get the other Losties back, but "That's not WHY" he's going to see Jacob. Also, it must have been fun for John to phrase it that way, just to play with Ben's mind some more; he's really enjoying his revenge.

I wonder if we're getting to the point of Walt's bad dream about Locke, where he's on a beach surrounded by people who want to hurt him.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> If detonating the bomb is what always happened, then old Eloise in LA remembers doing it and survived somehow, and purposely sent Jack back to make sure it happened. If it's a new timeline, and she doesn't survive, and she is pregnant with Daniel......then he never exists. I never got the idea at all that she was pregnant, probably because I had already figured that Daniel must be a small boy at this time.


When Eloise told Charles that she was taking Jack and Sayid to the bomb, he said something to the effect of "Are you sure you should do this with your condition?" and then he put his hand on her belly. I think that's a pretty clear telegraph.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> This will always be the one major flaw for the show in my opinion (aside from this time travel season )... They've set up a billion mysteries with no real chance to pay them off...even stuff they didn't intentionally setup but fans decided they had to know ie, the numbers. People are BEGGING for a explanation for "why" the numbers are cursed. What could the writer's possibly come up with to explain that? So they came up with the idea of the Valenzetti equation which, from what I know, was designed to predict the end of the world. Ok, fine. Done. But people are still like "What are the numbers??"... Then we see that they're the serial number on the hatch... I don't get what else they can possibly explain about them.
> 
> Other stuff too like "what is the island?" or "why doesn't hurley lose weight?"
> These are things that can't be answered, nor do they really matter.
> ...


I won't dissect your entire post, but I disagree with almost every part of it, and I would venture a guess (IMHO) so do most fans, casual or serious. We all want answers, but I don't need to know why everything happened, and neither does the casual fan. We just want to see where this goes.

Just to pick one part of your post (my red), I love it when we get "character driven" stories. And I know from talking to a couple of coworkers who definitely fall into the casual viewer cat, they love it too. As much as they love the weird storyline we are on.

You've mentioned this in a couple of posts now, how you think the writers' inability to answer everything will be the show's downfall. You could be right; maybe when May 2010 rolls around, we're all gonna be "wow, I can't believe I wasted six years on this sh*t".

But I doubt it.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I don't know, I like writing in my spare time and I would never introduce something I didn't plan on paying off, I don't see the point. Any writer can just be like "ok, this plume of smoke scans people's memories then decides if they live or die", but _explaining _that is much harder. Kind of their job though.


Now is a good time to mention something that really hasn't been talked about much in these threads.

Let's say you decide to write a novel. You get 3/4 of the way through and realize that a major event in your novel that was initiated by one character (let's call him Hurley) would be much better served being initiated by a different character (let's call him Sawyer). Heck, let's call it "pushing the history eraser button".

So you go back through the novel and change it so the history eraser button was pressed by Sawyer, and change every other reference back to the event. In going through the novel, you find that there's one particular conversation where this other character, Kate, is talking to Hurley, saying gee, when you pushed that button, you killed Sawyer...

But wait! Sawyer pushed the button, Sawyer's alive. So then you go back through and make all sorts of other changes.

When the book's complete and edited, the reader has no clue that the button was originally pressed by Hurley, nor do they know that Sawyer died. All they know is Sawyer pushed the button, and Hurley may or may not have died, depending on what you decided to do. But as far as the reader's concerned, they never saw the drafts.

Change it from a novel to a tv show...

You get 3/4 into the thing. Let's say you're in season 5, and the show will end in season 6. Before the series ever aired, you wrote a decent-length outline (20, 30, or more pages) that talks about these characters and where you want them to be. Not specifics, like what happens in the 3rd episode of season 4, but general events such as this needs to happen before this other thing can happen, so that BIG EVENT can happen.

The thing is, BIG EVENT was originally intended for a character that you'd originally planned to be alive at this point, but the actor playing that character got drunk one night and plowed into a telephone pole, got a DUI, and is now serving jail time.

How do you get yourself out of this situation? Good question. If you'd been writing a novel, the reader never would have known you made changes, but since you're doing a TV series, they see it as you're writing it. There's no way to just go back for another draft. You have to take what you've already written, and figure out how to shove a wedge in there to make it all work.

Things might work out, they might not, and you might just have to go WHOOPS and carry on with life.

Lost is a TV series, not a novel. Drafts can't happen when 5 seasons have already aired.

Greg


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

astrohip said:


> I won't dissect your entire post, but I disagree with almost every part of it, and I would venture a guess (IMHO) so do most fans, casual or serious. We all want answers, but I don't need to know why everything happened, and neither does the casual fan. We just want to see where this goes.
> 
> Just to pick one part of your post (my red), I love it when we get "character driven" stories. And I know from talking to a couple of coworkers who definitely fall into the casual viewer cat, they love it too. As much as they love the weird storyline we are on.
> 
> ...


I doubt it too.

And if all questions were answered much much faster, and no new questions had risen when those questions were answered, wouldn't the show have ended about 3 1/2 season ago?

-smak-


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

> *Originally Posted by astrohip *
> I won't dissect your entire post, but I disagree with almost every part of it, and I would venture a guess (IMHO) so do most fans, casual or serious. We all want answers, but I don't need to know why everything happened, and neither does the casual fan. We just want to see where this goes.


I think my post was misunderstood. For the most part, I was defending the writers against people who want every single molecule answered. IE, people are still whining about "the numbers" when the show/writers have explained them as best they could. Also, questions like "What is the Island?" are unanswerable for the most part. I was also defending them in the sense that "people" (not me) flip out every time they do a character-focused episode. I'm not clear which part of this statement you disagreed with?

I'm also not sure how anyone can disagree that they dropped the ball on Libby, because that fact is indisputable. I know they had a plan but the actress couldn't come back or something, but bottom line, it was a mystery that they didn't/can't pay off. That's all I'm saying.

I don't need every single thing answered, but that doesn't mean I don't want anything answer. Yes, I'll concede that obviously we have to wait until the series is over before we condemn them for not resolving stuff. Totally agree. But that doesn't mean stuff isn't up for discussion. I love the show as much as anyone else and as a devoted fan, I'm allowed to discuss the good and the bad. I don't see what's wrong with that. Believe me, on a professional level I respect the hell out of the writers, but they've made mistakes, so what? Why is talking about those mistakes such a bad, unimagineable thing?

I feel like this is turning into one of those board where you're only allowed to say 100% glowing, positive things about the show.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Why in the world can't they answer "What is the Island?" If they don't know what the island is then WTF? All this talk of character driven? Up until they flicked a switch this season, most of these characters have stayed pretty much the same, and I am not just referring to Hurley being fat. 

Kate is still the same selfish whiny *****. Jack is still a dick, except this season he "believes", Sayid still hates himself for what he does, Locke threw the decisive switch, and Sawyer turned off his bad boy switch. Not much really there.

This show has become all about the mythos of the island. If they don't explain the bulk of it then it will be a failure. Fine, Libby doesn't want to come back, I can live with that. But these questions must be answered:

What is the island?
Why doesn't Richard age?
Smokey?
The magic time wheel?
Jacob?
Others can no longer breed?
Statue? (toes)
Claire, Christian, Walt, Alex, Ecko's brother etc.?


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> It looks like Radzinski is going to be the guy who insists on drilling, which may explain why he spends the rest of his life in the hatch pressing the button.


Radzinsky is all about some maps! When he was interrogating Sawyer he insisted he draw him a map of where the Others where. He is also the one who drew the map on the blast door in invisible ink. BTW, I still want to know why that map needed to be secret and only accessible when the blast door is down.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

tiams said:


> Radzinsky is all about some maps! When he was interrogating Sawyer he insisted he draw him a map of where the Others where. He is also the one who drew the map on the blast door in invisible ink. BTW, I still want to know why that map needed to be secret and only accessible when the blast door is down.


I wonder if they'll even address it. I assume they will but who knows. I'm very anxious to see how Radzinsky goes from angry Dharma scientist to Other-loving Swan button pusher alongside Kelvin. That's one period I wish they'd explain: The Swan Pre-Desmond, and who exactly Kelvin was/was working for. We know the others descimated Dharma in 1992, and in 2001 some guy named Kelvin is living as a Dharma agent in the Swan hatch when he recruits Des. What's his deal? How does Radzinsky fit into it.... etc. I really hope they explore this stuff.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

I must be confused about some of the time travel...

Richard mentions to John that the last time he saw John they were sitting on a log together and John vanished. Then, John leads Richard into the woods and we see the scene where Richard takes the bullet out of John's leg and then John vanishes. Isn't this what Richard was talking about when he said they were sitting on a log and John vanished? How did Richard know about this before John led him into the woods and took him to the spot where 2004 John was going to appear?

/confused


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

stalemate said:


> I must be confused about some of the time travel...
> 
> Richard mentions to John that the last time he saw John they were sitting on a log together and John vanished. Then, John leads Richard into the woods and we see the scene where Richard takes the bullet out of John's leg and then John vanishes. Isn't this what Richard was talking about when he said they were sitting on a log and John vanished? How did Richard know about this before John led him into the woods and took him to the spot where 2004 John was going to appear?
> 
> /confused


Richard is referring to the end of Season 4, when the flash happened. John was sitting on a log, with Richard and the Others. Then the flash occurred, and John was gone.

I could be wrong about the episode - it could be the first episode of Season 5. Whenever it was that everyone starred jumping through time.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> When Eloise told Charles that she was taking Jack and Sayid to the bomb, he said something to the effect of "Are you sure you should do this with your condition?" and then he put his hand on her belly. I think that's a pretty clear telegraph.


I'm sure you're right about this, but I went back to watch it the third time, and I couldn't hear any of the conversation. Either I have bad ears or this is just clear with closed caption. I did see him pat her belly, but I didn't notice that the first time through when I wasn't looking for it. As has been said, I wasn't expecting it because it seems like the timing is off. Plus it makes Daniel way younger than Charlotte. But we know her age is off.....


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I did see him pat her belly, but I didn't notice that the first time through when I wasn't looking for it. As has been said, I wasn't expecting it because it seems like the timing is off. Plus it makes Daniel way younger than Charlotte. But we know her age is off.....





Spoiler



exactly, it puts him in line with her when her age is proper in respect to canon, not the line delivered in the show which they have now said was incorrect


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> exactly, it puts him in line with her when her age is proper in respect to canon, not the line delivered in the show which they have now said was incorrect


Are we still spoiling stuff about the screw up re: Charlotte's age from the podcasts?


Spoiler



Anyway, no it doesn't. She's four or five on the island in 1977, which is in line with what's in the podcast as what's supposed to be her age, born 1973. Which makes her five plus years older than Daniel if his mother is pregnant with him in 1977.


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

When Sawyer told Juliette, "Ladies first.", was anybody else expecting him to close the hatch on her and stay on the island? Definitely a change in character to leave with her.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

aindik said:


> Are we still spoiling stuff about the screw up re: Charlotte's age from the podcasts?


yup.. just being on the safe side, but with that correction.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

SocratesJohnson said:


> When Sawyer told Juliette, "Ladies first.", was anybody else expecting him to close the hatch on her and stay on the island? Definitely a change in character to leave with her.


It did occur to me. That long sweep of the island left it hanging in the air until he said "Good riddance."


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Figaro said:


> Why doesn't Richard age?


I'm beginning to wonder if he wasn't a corpse on the _Black Rock_ when it arrived on the island, a la Christian or Locke.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Figaro said:


> Why in the world can't they answer "What is the Island?" If they don't know what the island is then WTF? All this talk of character driven? Up until they flicked a switch this season, most of these characters have stayed pretty much the same, and I am not just referring to Hurley being fat.
> 
> Kate is still the same selfish whiny *****. Jack is still a dick, except this season he "believes", Sayid still hates himself for what he does, Locke threw the decisive switch, and Sawyer turned off his bad boy switch. Not much really there.


Character driven doesn't mean the characters have to change. It just means that the characters are explored. Nearly every episode of the first three seasons was all about exploring the characters and their motivations and how their life pre-Island led them to the Island and influenced the decisions they're making on the Island.


SocratesJohnson said:


> When Sawyer told Juliette, "Ladies first.", was anybody else expecting him to close the hatch on her and stay on the island? Definitely a change in character to leave with her.


Yes, that thought definitely occurred to me.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Character driven doesn't mean the characters have to change. It just means that the characters are explored. Nearly every episode of the first three seasons was all about exploring the characters and their motivations and how their life pre-Island led them to the Island and influenced the decisions they're making on the Island.
> 
> Yes, that thought definitely occurred to me.


If a character driven show is on for 5-6 years and the characters don't grow or change, then that is a badly written character driven show.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if he wasn't a corpse on the _Black Rock_ when it arrived on the island, a la Christian or Locke.


I agree 

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7243539#post7243539


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## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

SocratesJohnson said:


> Am I the only one thinking that the writers are really going to have to work overtime next season explaining all the little unexplained tidbits so I don't feel cheated at the end of this?


You all just THINK this is going to end next season. In reality, after Season 6, episode 7, we're all going to flash back to season 4 and see some different parts of the story.


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## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> What are the manifestations of the Island that we've seen? There is the smoke monster, Jacob (may not be real, but I think its something due to what Locke heard), Christian, and Richard (I count Richard because of his immortality.) Am I missing any? Is Jacob actually Christian (whom I think is actually Jack, aged naturally from 1977.)


I can't point to anything directly, but I seem to recall that some manifestations seemed to contradict other manifestations. And now, with Locke off to kill Jacob on orders of the Smoke Monster, I wonder if those two mystical entities have been in conflict all this time.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Philosofy said:


> Is Jacob actually Christian (whom I think is actually Jack, aged naturally from 1977.)


Wait... you think Jack is his own father? Meaning that at some point Jack-from-77 hooks up with his own mother?  Isn't the fact that Jack would already have been born by 1977 a problem?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

thenightfly42 said:


> I can't point to anything directly, but I seem to recall that some manifestations seemed to contradict other manifestations. And now, with Locke off to kill Jacob on orders of the Smoke Monster, I wonder if those two mystical entities have been in conflict all this time.


"Two players. Two sides - one light, one dark." - John Locke, Lost pilot episode.


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## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

thenightfly42 said:


> I can't point to anything directly, but I seem to recall that some manifestations seemed to contradict other manifestations. And now, with Locke off to kill Jacob on orders of the Smoke Monster, I wonder if those two mystical entities have been in conflict all this time.


I don't think Locke seen Smokey at all since he's been back. He said the Island is speaking to him, not the Smoke Monster, though that could have happened off camera. We don't know yet the Smoke Monster's connection to the island, save that it told Ben to help Locke in everything.
Actually, I don't think we have seen them in the same place at the same time. I am holding out the possibility that new John Locke and Smokey may be one and the same, just different forms. We haven't seen Smokey coalesce into a single form such as Jack's dad and/or new Locke, but I wouldn't put it past the writers that we may see this in the future.
EDIT: Okay, I guess we may have seen it imitate humans... so all the more reason to suspect Locke may be Smokey.
Speaking of Smokey. Do the Dharma people have any control/contact with Smokey since there is a way to release it from Ben's house, which I have to guess is one of the Dharma's peoples house.
Anyhow, I figure Locke is off to kill Jacob:
1) Either as a mercy killing, since we heard him say "help me."
2) Or symbolically, which is why he is bringing everyone with him. 
3) Or the Island told him to, as perhaps Jacob is bad for the Island, or he could be good, and the island directed John to do the mercy killing. If he has always been bad or is now bad, or good would remain to be seen.
4) Or in his role as leader, he doesn't want people asking "but what does Jacob say?"
5) Or one of a million other possibilities that the writers have up their sleeves.


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## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

Charon2 said:


> I don't think Locke seen Smokey at all since he's been back. He said the Island is speaking to him, not the Smoke Monster, though that could have happened off camera.


Shoot, I didn't flesh that statement out far enough. I should have said "The Smoke Monster has told Ben that Locke is doing the Right Thing. Locke is off to kill Jacob. I think the Smoke Monster and Jacob aren't on the same side."


Charon2 said:


> We haven't seen Smokey coalesce into a single form such as Jack's dad and/or new Locke, but I wouldn't put it past the writers that we may see this in the future.
> EDIT: Okay, I guess we may have seen it imitate humans... so all the more reason to suspect Locke may be Smokey.


Ben's daughter, in the scene I just mentioned, would be most recent.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

danterner said:


> Wait... you think Jack is his own father? Meaning that at some point Jack-from-77 hooks up with his own mother?  Isn't the fact that Jack would already have been born by 1977 a problem?


Yeah, I'm with you here. Naturally aged Jack can be a good thing in say, cheese and drink, but in this case I'd rather we have some naturally spawned Jack instead.  Even Oedipus would go "Whoa, dude."


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Jack and Kate clearly have to become Adam and Eve of the cave.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I have a theory that may have been proposed in another long, long Lost thread. The people that are asking "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" might be present day Dharma people. But what if they are "infected" like Danielle's friends were?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Speaking of that riddle, I've heard an answer which I like, but don't believe. Nobody. The reasoning is that Smokey is the shadow, and when you're within Smokey it reads your mind, so you can't lie.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Philosofy said:


> I have a theory that may have been proposed in another long, long Lost thread. The people that are asking "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" might be present day Dharma people. But what if they are "infected" like Danielle's friends were?


I forget which one, but yes, this was discussed in one of the other threads. I think it makes sense.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Around 33 hours left until the finale...


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Around 33 hours left until the finale...


even less if you flash forward.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Speaking of that riddle, I've heard an answer which I like, but don't believe. Nobody. The reasoning is that Smokey is the shadow, and when you're within Smokey it reads your mind, so you can't lie.


Oh, I like that.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Figaro said:


> even less if you flash forward.


I thought they weren't going to show the finale until 1977..?


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## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I thought they weren't going to show the finale until 1977..?


You mean, we saw it already, but it hasn't happened yet?


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Jericho Dog said:


> You mean, we saw it already, but it hasn't happened yet?


It was in the directors cut of Star Wars


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I think my post was misunderstood. For the most part, I was defending the writers against people who want every single molecule answered. IE, people are still whining about "the numbers" when the show/writers have explained them as best they could.


They did no such thing. First of all, the explanation they gave wasn't even on the show itself. For people who are not following the external sources, there is actually ZERO explanation for the numbers. For the people who are following the internet stuff, all we know is the general notion of what the numbers represent, which is that they are:



Spoiler



the factors of the Valenzetti Equation, which predicts the date when mankind will destroy itself in one of many ways. This equation is the reason for the original Dharma initiative - which was created to alter one of the factors.



I believe that the writers know more about this and have either written it in a top secret bible or at least have an idea in their head. The least they could do is throw the viewers of the TV show a bone by explaining it. Ideally they would at least elaborate on why those numbers being what they are leads them to be prevalent in other ways.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Around 33 hours left until the finale...


Savor this time, Jeff. It'll be 8 months before you can say anything similar. 



Figaro said:


> even less if you flash forward.


Wouldn't it be a bit embarrassing if you flew right past _Lost_ and wound up smack dab in the middle of _Your Late Local News_? 



Jericho Dog said:


> You mean, we saw it already, but it hasn't happened yet?


Aye, brutha.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

PKurmas said:


> It couldn't be Penny. When Widmore was voted off the island part of the explanation was that he'd fathered a child off the island.


Very late to the party, but I was just re-watching that episode, and Ben didn't say he'd fathered a child "off the island," but "with an outsider." It's possible Widmore fathered some Dharma baby (Charlotte?), or even that Penny was born on the island.

Interesting that there's a good chance that Dan, Charlotte and Miles were all born on the island.


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## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> I have a theory that may have been proposed in another long, long Lost thread. The people that are asking "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" might be present day Dharma people. But what if they are "infected" like Danielle's friends were?


Hmm... I thought they may be with Whitmore, but that they may be Dharma trying to get back may be a more interesting take. I'll have to rewatch the episode(s) where we saw Danielle's friends infected to see if they were in fact infected and by what, but infected is another thing I haven't considered yet.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

All I know is that I think tonight they explode the bomb, the flash forward/back as necessary, the plane lands safely, fade to black......


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## rbraddes (Aug 27, 2005)

mqpickles said:


> Interesting that there's a good chance that Dan, Charlotte and Miles were all born on the island.


Actually, Ethan is one of the few (if not the only) Dharma babies born on the island. In that episode, when his mother is going into labor, one of the Dharma guys says that expectant mothers are sent to Tahiti (I believe) on the submarine to birth the babies.


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## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

jlb said:


> All I know is that I think tonight they explode the bomb, the flash forward/back as necessary, the plane lands safely, fade to black......


Then, what for next season?


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Oh I agree. But if you factor this whole detiny thing, and throw in time travel and all, and maybe alternate realities, or the like, that perhaps it lands safely, but things have changed...and perhaps our Losties start to get feelings that they know people, etc.......

In the Lost world, with JJ and DL&CC at the helm, they could land the plane and still have a plot to carry us to the end.........


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jlb said:


> Oh I agree. But if you factor this whole detiny thing, and throw in time travel and all, and maybe alternate realities, or the like, that perhaps it lands safely, but things have changed...and perhaps our Losties start to get feelings that they know people, etc.......
> 
> In the Lost world, with JJ and DL&CC at the helm, they could land the plane and still have a plot to carry us to the end.........


Sure...remember when people thought...get off the island? What would they do then?


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

jlb said:


> All I know is that I think tonight they explode the bomb, the flash forward/back as necessary, the plane lands safely, fade to black......


And Walt ages 5 years on the trip ? If they did manage to shoot that scene ahead of time and everyone has kept it quiet until this point, that would be a major feat.

Though it would have made sense maybe for a dream sequence from Season 1 and they've kept it stored until now..


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I'm stuck in a hotel with no HD!!! Aaarghh!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> I'm stuck in a hotel with no HD!!! Aaarghh!


I was in that position last week. I ended up waiting until I got home and watching it on Sunday. I missed out on the thread, but it was worth it for the HD and the ability to watch it more carefully (i.e., with full TiVo capabilities).


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Delta13 said:


> Savor this time, Jeff. It'll be 8 months before you can say anything similar.


I know. And worse, this is the last summer cliffhanger. And even worse than that, the next to last chapter of the book is usually where all of the good stuff happens.. I'm preparing myself for the idea that this was the best season, and next season is a serious winding down. 

..but we STILL HAVE TONIGHT!!! 3 hours 30 minutes left, and 30 minutes of that is me driving home! 3 more hours of hanging around!!!

..Jeff


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

At teh end of every season, something has exploded, and the show has changed direction, I assume this year will be similar. Next year, there will be no time travel. that part of the story is now over (I predict). At the end of tonight's episode(s), everything will be back to where it's supposed to be in time, and the pieces will be in place for what will happen next year. 

I suspect it will be the war that has been mentioned. A four faction battle, Widmore, Ben/Locke, Dharma, and the Losties. 

What lies in the shaddow of the statue? Bodies!


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