# Anyone able to test the cable card bracket for pinout diagram?



## neogeek87 (Nov 9, 2015)

Does anyone have a bracket that they can test that the pins are 1:1 into the PCMCIA header of the Tivo? In other words pin 1 of the card translates to pin 1 on the header and so on for all the pins.

The holes are too small for a normal multimeter probe, but stripping 24AWG ethernet seems to work nicely.

I am trying to recreate the bracket and 3d print one of my own as I foolishly bought the OTA model and didn't realize the difference before unboxing.

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It's 1:1. It's basically a PCMCIA slot with a right angle bracket on it.


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## neogeek87 (Nov 9, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> It's 1:1. It's basically a PCMCIA slot with a right angle bracket on it.


Thanks Dan. Wired it up and works like a charm.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

neogeek87 said:


> Thanks Dan. Wired it up and works like a charm.


So you were able to fabricate the bracket?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I ran a search for PCMCIA adapters and found some PCI cards that had PCMCIA slots with right angle headers. I found one on ebay for less than $7 with free shipping so I bought it. There are quite a few Belkin cards listed for less than $11 with free shipping. I don't know if it will fit the header in the Roamio, but it's worth a shot.

If anyone's interested, Amazon still has the Roamio OTA listed for $299 with lifetime. It's currently out of stock but will be shipped when they come in.

Update: I think I may have jumped the gun on this. It appears that these cards have about four rows of staggered pins vs. two for the Roamio header connector so they probably won't work.


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## dmurphy (Jan 17, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> So you were able to fabricate the bracket?


.. and if so, what would you charge to fabricate more of them?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

dmurphy said:


> .. and if so, what would you charge to fabricate more of them?


That was my next question.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

If you're looking for a card bracket, check out the PCMCIA to PCI adapters I referenced in my previous post. They have a complete bracket mounted on the board that will probably work. The key is to somehow mate the connector on the bracket to the socket header in the Roamio OTA.


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## neogeek87 (Nov 9, 2015)

Proof of concept works, but I haven't had time to finish work on the bracket... If I ever do finish it, I will release the 3d model online for anyone to print themselves and/or improve design.

Also, because we are using M-Cards, you only have to map/wire 44 of the 68 pins, although if you aren't careful its very easy to miswire and the full proof way is to just wire all 68.

Problem with most PCMCIA brackets is that they are staggered into four rows as Mr. unnatural points out.

The closest I could find short of taking one from an existing roamio basic or 3d printer, is an SMT PCMCIA bracket, but you will still have to add the leads yourself.


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## miadlor (Sep 4, 2003)

How about this?
http://www.aukconnector.com/SeriesDtl.asp?GroupNo=09&Serial=3749


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## neogeek87 (Nov 9, 2015)

miadlor said:


> How about this?
> http://www.aukconnector.com/SeriesDtl.asp?GroupNo=09&Serial=3749


The drawings of that device look like it may just be one row of surface mount pins.

I could be wrong though.


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

I bought these two on Ebay for $11 after mr.unnatural's comment. Unknown if they would be exactly plug-n-play but maybe I could easily modify.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111575875897


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I looked up the connector configuration for a standard PCMCIA socket. Both the connector on a cablecard and the Tivo are female connectors with two rows of 32 pins with 0.050" spacing. I searched for some right angle dual row headers with this spacing and came up with this:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/M50-3905042/952-1704-ND/2762133

I ordered several of these to see if they'd work. They're only $8.26 apiece and less if you order in bulk. First class shipping was only about $3.25 for three of them. The headers are 100-pin units so I'd have to trim off the excess pins. My main concern is whether or not the pins are long enough to mate with both the Tivo socket and the cablecard. Having a bracket to hold the cablecard would be nice, but not really all that necessary. I figure all you really need is an interface between the cablecard and the Tivo and you should be good to go.

The cablecard can be secured with some duct tape or possibly Velcro. I was thinking a little dab of hot glue on either side to secure it to the tray would also work. I might also try scavenging the bracket from the PCI card I ordered and see if I can mount the header in the bracket in place of the one that comes with it. I'll post my findings once I get the header and the PCI card. I'll take some photos and post them along with my findings. I don't have my Roamio OTA yet, but I've got three of them backordered with Amazon for $299 each with lifetime so any testing will have to be done on the Roamio Basic model I bought on ebay.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I will be very interested. I have an OTA backordered also.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I received the right angle headers today. I trimmed one of them down to 64 pins and tried to mate it with a cablecard. The good news is that the pin spacing matched perfectly. The bad news is that the pins are too thick and won't penetrate the socket on the cablecard. I will continue to search for a similar header with thinner pins. I will also experiment with the PCI card bracket when it arrives to see if there's some way I can kluge this thing together.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

All you have to do is get some insulated solid copper of the correct diameter, strip ends, insert in to both devices 1:1, bend and secure with zip ties.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

foghorn2 said:


> All you have to do is get some insulated solid copper of the correct diameter, strip ends, insert in to both devices 1:1, bend and secure with zip ties.


Yeah, that might be a bit tricky with 68 pins. Getting 68 copper wires to align without bending would be quite a feat. What happens if you can't get the cablecard activated and you need to get a tech to come out to the house? Do you think he's going to sit around while you try and insert 68 copper wires into a new cablecard? There's got to be a better solution than that.

If I can't come up with a working solution I'll just pick up a used Roamio Basic and scavenge the bracket. I figure I can probably resell the stripped model as an OTA and recoup some of the cost.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Has anyone checked S3s and S3 HD/HD Xls to see if their cable card slots can be cannibalized for the OTA Roamio?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

unitron said:


> Has anyone checked S3s and S3 HD/HD Xls to see if their cable card slots can be cannibalized for the OTA Roamio?


That's a good idea. S3 Tivos should be plentiful at a low price. I have a feeling that the cablecard socket will have a similar layout as the PCI adapter cards I mentioned previously. The PCMCIA spec calls for a pin configuration that's staggered for mounting to a PC card. If the S3 Tivos use the same modular design as the Roamio then they'd be a great source for connectors and brackets.

I'm searching for pictures of S3 Tivos and it looks like the Tivo HD model TCD652160 has a cablecard bracket with surface mount contacts. The original S3 uses two S-cards so it likely has a stacked bracket, which will have staggered contacts similar to the PCI card adapter, but twice as many rows.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I have an older Toshiba laptop. Its PCMCIA slot does not accept a Moto M-Card. I don't know why.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I checked the Cable card slots of S3's a few weeks ago. I don't remember exactly what it looked like now (damn CRS) but it wasn't an option for me for transferring to the OTA Roamio. I think it was soldered to the board, but again...CRS.


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## wwu123 (May 15, 2008)

Also don't bother trying a Premiere either, I completely took one apart to check the Cablecard holder and it's soldered on....


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The Roamio seems to be the exception to the rule when it comes to cablecard slots. Most devices use the standard soldered pins that adhere to the PCMCIA standard whereas the Roamio uses a female connector with a right angle header with aligned pins rather than a staggered configuration. I'm starting to think the only option is to find a donor Roamio Basic and transplant the slot. A used Roamio Basic will cost about $70-100.

A Tivo OTA with the lifetime deal will cost $299. If you were to buy a Roamio Basic for the retail cost of $149 and add lifetime to it then you're still way ahead of the game by converting the lifetimed OTA to a Roamio Basic. You can keep the scavenged Roamio and use it for spare parts if the need ever arises. You could always part it out and make a few bucks on it or try to sell it as a used OTA, but I wouldn't expect you'd get much for it without lifetime attached.



JoeKustra said:


> I have an older Toshiba laptop. Its PCMCIA slot does not accept a Moto M-Card. I don't know why.


There are different versions of PCMCIA cards. Perhaps your Toshiba only accepts older, slimmer versions of the cards. I thought the pinouts were the same for all versions and just the thickness of the cards varied, but I really didn't pay that much attention when I was looking for info on the connectors.



wwu123 said:


> Also don't bother trying a Premiere either, I completely took one apart to check the Cablecard holder and it's soldered on....


I thought that was the case, but all of the photos I found online for the Premiere motherboard were a bit grainy and I really couldn't tell what kind of connectors they had. I believe they have a shield that covers the pins so I couldn't see them clearly.

Most consumer electronics devices use surface mounted components these days for ease of manufacture. All of the components are placed on the board by robotics and attached with adhesive. Once the components are set in place, the entire circuit board is run through a solder bath so all of the components are soldered all at once. This is pretty much standard practice in the industry nowadays.

FWIW, I contacted 9th Tee about the possibility of developing a cablecard bracket for the Roamio OTA. I figure they'd have as much interest in putting something like this together as anyone.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

mr.unnatural said:


> The Roamio seems to be the exception to the rule when it comes to cablecard slots. Most devices use the standard soldered pins that adhere to the PCMCIA standard whereas the Roamio uses a female connector with a right angle header with aligned pins rather than a staggered configuration. I'm starting to think the only option is to find a donor Roamio Basic and transplant the slot. A used Roamio Basic will cost about $70-100.


Or better yet try to find someone selling a broken one for cheaper. Oh look, here's one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/tivo-roamio...143749?hash=item25b10c0085:g:RUUAAOSw5VFWQpl3

Does the Bolt use the same CableCard bracket as the Roamio? If so, then a broken Bolt would probably also work.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Or better yet try to find someone selling a broken one for cheaper. Oh look, here's one:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/tivo-roamio...143749?hash=item25b10c0085:g:RUUAAOSw5VFWQpl3
> 
> Does the Bolt use the same CableCard bracket as the Roamio? If so, then a broken Bolt would probably also work.


Great. I'd been watching that one for a few days, and was starting to get my hopes up. 

(If somebody here wants it, let me know so that I don't bid against you! I don't really need it; just looking to have it as a backup.)


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Yeah, the cheaper 'oh look here's one' on eBay doesn't really count until it's sold. Most of the Roamio Basics are going for over $80 with shipping. Took me a couple of months to get one that barely squeaked in at under $80 with shipping.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

krkaufman said:


> Great. I'd been watching that one for a few days, and was starting to get my hopes up.


Oopsie, sorry about that. If it makes you feel any better, I promise not to bid for it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

LOL, I had that one in my watch list as well. I've already got two that work so if someone else has their eye on it speak up and I'll back off. I don't even know if the Roamio OTA's that I've ordered from Amazon will ever be honored so it's probably moot. If the OTA's don't get delivered then I'm stuck with two Roamio Basics that I won't need.

FWIW, the first Roamio I bought cost about $90 and change. The 2nd one cost me $75 with shipping. The ones that end during prime time generally go for the highest price because people are available to bid on them. Some people don't think about the time that the auction ends and post them during the day when people are at work or in the wee hours of the morning when people are asleep. I end up bidding on items via my smartphone most of the time for that reason. Look for the ones that end at odd hours and you're more likely to get a decent price because there's less competition. I've been doing ebay for 19 years and the only auctions I lose are to people that pay more than the item is worth.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> LOL, I had that one in my watch list as well. I've already got two that work so if someone else has their eye on it speak up and I'll back off. I don't even know if the Roamio OTA's that I've ordered from Amazon will ever be honored so it's probably moot. If the OTA's don't get delivered then I'm stuck with two Roamio Basics that I won't need.


You could probably sell just the cable card brackets and recoup your losses.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

hummingbird_206 said:


> Yeah, the cheaper 'oh look here's one' on eBay doesn't really count until it's sold. Most of the Roamio Basics are going for over $80 with shipping. Took me a couple of months to get one that barely squeaked in at under $80 with shipping.


Right! That's why the above "For parts or not working" is so attractive... though $35 is already getting a bit steep.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

krkaufman said:


> Right! That's why the above "For parts or not working" is so attractive... though $35 is already getting a bit steep.


$35 would be pretty good considering you get the CableCard bracket, a spare remote, power supply, and maybe a hard drive out of it if you can get it to work.


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## elborak (Jul 15, 2014)

krkaufman said:


> Great. I'd been watching that one for a few days, and was starting to get my hopes up.


Likewise...


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

what is the point of all this? can this generic card be authorised and paired for cable use? im not trying to be a wise guy , i just dont get it.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

mattyro7878 said:


> what is the point of all this? can this generic card be authorised and paired for cable use? im not trying to be a wise guy , i just dont get it.


It's not the card, it's the bracket that holds the card. If you can get your hands on the CableCard bracket, you essentially turn a Roamio OTA into a base Roamio.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

mattyro7878 said:


> what is the point of all this? can this generic card be authorised and paired for cable use? im not trying to be a wise guy , i just dont get it.


I don't think we're talking about using a generic cable card. Many of us bought OTA Roamios with lifetime for $299 and are trying to figure out how to make the OTA model work with a cable card. Someone figured out that the cable card bracket from a Roamio basic will work in the OTA model. Now people are trying to figure out how to build a similar bracket.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

elborak said:


> Likewise...


Well at least now you know that several other people also have their eye on this broken Roamio. I see it has already received a second bid. The current bid is up to $21 now. Try not to overbid this thing, everyone.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

I'm out.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

tarheelblue32 said:


> $35 would be pretty good considering you get the CableCard bracket, a spare remote, power supply, and maybe a hard drive out of it if you can get it to work.


Yeah, I'd have been willing to go a bit higher on the broken Roamio had I not just bought one of those Woot refurb OTAs for $32, giving me all those spare parts, already.

(Full disclosure: I've also remembered that I have an unused CableCARD bracket in my mom's base Roamio, and she won't be getting cable any time soon, unless her deep and abiding hatred for Comcast magically subsides. So that bracket will be my backup, for now, should I need to convert my OTA over to cable. And, yes, I could copy all her programming over to my OTA and swap-out the devices, but I don't want the hassle if my OTA randomly dies a week after making the change.)


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## gespears (Aug 10, 2007)

Sorry guys, bid on this one before I saw the thread. I have an OTA I was trying to turn into a regular Roamio for my brother. I doubt I'll get it though if they are going for ~ 80 bucks. I had no idea. I thought what I bid was too high.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

gespears said:


> Sorry guys, bid on this one before I saw the thread. I have an OTA I was trying to turn into a regular Roamio for my brother. I doubt I'll get it though if they are going for ~ 80 bucks. I had no idea. I thought what I bid was too high.


Bid away, ge; your need is much greater than mine.

And that $80 mark, I believe, was in reference to working Roamios. This "for parts" one may come in at a more reasonable level; plus, as tarheel highlighted, you get the remote, power brick, etc, along with the scavenged CableCARD bracket. (And, who knows, maybe the drive is just bad.)

p.s. Thanks to tarheel for posting the ebay auction link. I'm glad we're not getting into a bidding war against each other!


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

krkaufman said:


> Bid away, ge; your need is much greater than mine.
> 
> And that $80 mark, I believe, was in reference to working Roamios. This "for parts" one may come in at a more reasonable level; plus, as tarheel highlighted, you get the remote, power brick, etc, along with the scavenged CableCARD bracket. (And, who knows, maybe the drive is just bad.)


The $80 reference was my experience for a couple of months trying to get any Basic Roamio so I could take out the bracket. This one could go for less, could go for more, who knows? But just linking to a non-completed auction where the bid and shipping is already at $35, and saying they are going for cheap, is a bit misleading.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I just left some feedback at weaKnees to consider adding a cable card kit for people who want to make a basic Roamio from an OTA. That sure would be nice.


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## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> ...*You can keep the scavenged Roamio and use it for spare parts if the need ever arises.* You could always part it out and make a few bucks on it or try to sell it as a used OTA, but I wouldn't expect you'd get much for it without lifetime attached...


I bought 3 Woot $25 Refurb Roamio OTAs for spare parts for my TiVo $50 Refurb Roamio Basic (w/Lifetime). The only spare parts I see are the P/S, HDD, and Remote. AFAIK, the "Lifetime" is stored on a surface-mounted chip on the motherboard.

Are there other parts I'm missing?

Re: the multiple spare HDDs, I plan on using 2 as PC backup drives in an eSATA / USB Dock. At $25, for what I'm guessing to be the cost of a replacement P/S and Remote, the HDD was essentially free.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> LOL, I had that one in my watch list as well. I've already got two that work so if someone else has their eye on it speak up and I'll back off. I don't even know if the Roamio OTA's that I've ordered from Amazon will ever be honored so it's probably moot. If the OTA's don't get delivered then I'm stuck with two Roamio Basics that I won't need.
> 
> FWIW, the first Roamio I bought cost about $90 and change. The 2nd one cost me $75 with shipping.


So you are going to get a TiVo again? Just curious since you've been a big proponent of WMC. Are you going to use TiVo along with WMC or to replace WMC (assuming you get the lifetime OTA's it sounds like)?

Scott


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

JoeKustra said:


> I just left some feedback at weaKnees to consider adding a cable card kit for people who want to make a basic Roamio from an OTA. That sure would be nice.


The problem is that if this strategy gets too popular, TiVo might try to do something in the software to kill this. Right now it's very niche, so TiVo probably doesn't care. If someone like Weaknees started selling the bracket to the general public, it might raise TiVo's attention level.


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## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

tarheelblue32 said:


> The problem is that if this strategy gets too popular, TiVo might try to do something in the software to kill this. Right now it's very niche, so TiVo probably doesn't care. *If someone like Weaknees started selling the bracket to the general public, it might raise TiVo's attention level.*


Don't TiVo employees already read these forums?

I'm thinking it would be a simple firmware update, based on model number and/or serial number to disable it. Like the ReplayTV 55XX couldn't do Commercial Advance with the same v144 software that the ReplayTV 50XX did do it.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ClearToLand said:


> Don't TiVo employees already read these forums?
> 
> I'm thinking it would be a simple firmware update, based on model number and/or serial number to disable it. Like the ReplayTV 55XX couldn't do Commercial Advance with the same v144 software that the ReplayTV 50XX did do it.


I'm sure they do, but as long as it is a small number of users and under the radar, they might not care enough to stop it. But if it starts getting out to too many people that could be a problem. It could also raise issues with CableLabs, as the Roamio OTA was never certified as a CableCard device and thus was never paid a CableCard licensing fee on the OTA sales.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Right, we should keep this to ourselves.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Anybody got good pictures of the Roamio Basic cable card socket so I can compare with my broken 648s and 652/658s?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

HerronScott said:


> So you are going to get a TiVo again? Just curious since you've been a big proponent of WMC. Are you going to use TiVo along with WMC or to replace WMC (assuming you get the lifetime OTA's it sounds like)?
> 
> Scott


I've got three Roamio OTAs with lifetime on backorder from Amazon and I just purchased three refurbished Tivo Minis on Woot. My plan is to upgrade the OTAs to Roamio Basics and resell everything on ebay for a profit. I had considered using them in my home, but I'm not sure how they'd work for streaming movies from my server. I've never messed with Plex and I'm concerned about the WAF if I try to go that route. WMC is working perfectly fine so I see no reason to switch. The wife is resistant to change and she has become quite comfortable using WMC so I don't really want to do anything to rock the boat. I will probably play around with Plex on one of the OTAs just to see how it works.

The only reason I made the purchases was that it gave me another opportunity to hack a Tivo once again. The ability to hack older models was what intrigued me about Tivos in the first place. Now that all of the hacks are incorporated into the retail models they're just not as much fun to play with anymore. WMC gave me another opportunity to take a basic DVR package and customize it with other options. I was able to integrate Kodi into WMC so now I have lots of options for watching and recording TV as well as streaming movies and videos from my server.



unitron said:


> Anybody got good pictures of the Roamio Basic cable card socket so I can compare with my broken 648s and 652/658s?


The socket on the Roamio Basic is different than your other Tivos. It has two parallel rows of straight pins that plug into a socket header on the Roamio mainboard. The socket header on the Roamio chassis looks just like the socket on the end of a cablecard or PCMCIA device. The pins on your other Tivos are most likely surface mount contacts rather than thru pins.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I've got three Roamio OTAs with lifetime on backorder from Amazon and I just purchased three refurbished Tivo Minis on Woot. My plan is to upgrade the OTAs to Roamio Basics and resell everything on ebay for a profit. I had considered using them in my home, but I'm not sure how they'd work for streaming movies from my server.


I would be sure to advertise that they had been upgraded from an OTA if you do sell them since TiVo could disable cable functionality.

Scott


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Frankly, I wouldn't feel comfortable selling them at all. It's one thing to do it for yourself, it's another to be doing it strictly for resale.


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

LoadStar said:


> Frankly, I wouldn't feel comfortable selling them at all. It's one thing to do it for yourself, it's another to be doing it strictly for resale.


Agree... Although if you included the adapter in the sale and showed it as a separate item with a detailed full description of the hack I guess that would be ok. Better yet if you sold it to someone on this forum who full well knew what exactly they were buying.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

The model numbers on the back are different, selling OTA's as Basics would be deceiving the buyer.


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## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

heifer624 said:


> ...*Better yet if you sold it to someone on this forum who full well knew what exactly they were buying.*


But then they would know the markup!


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## uw69 (Jan 25, 2001)

Might be better to have this discussion in Tivo Underground section of the forum.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

uw69 said:


> Might be better to have this discussion in Tivo Underground section of the forum.


I definitely concur with that. This thread should be moved there.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Looks like the broken Roamio went for $36.11 + $14.99 shipping. So fess up, who won the ebay auction?


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## gespears (Aug 10, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Who won the ebay auction?


Wasn't me. Somebody sniped it.


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## elborak (Jul 15, 2014)




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## gespears (Aug 10, 2007)

elborak said:


>


That looks like a guilty smile.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

elborak said:


>


YOu plucken Flocker!

(rooster cussing, dont censor plaease)


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## gespears (Aug 10, 2007)

foghorn2 said:


> YOu plucken Flocker!
> 
> (rooster cussing, dont censor plaease)


I thought he was a farging bastage!?!


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Settle down guys, I'm sure another broken Roamio will come along.


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## elborak (Jul 15, 2014)

I've always thought of myself as more of a fargin icehole...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

HerronScott said:


> I would be sure to advertise that they had been upgraded from an OTA if you do sell them since TiVo could disable cable functionality.
> 
> Scott


Absolutely. I wouldn't settle for anything less than full disclosure. I'm not sure that Tivo HQ would know if it had been upgraded with a cablecard slot or if they would even monitor it for anything of the sort. I suspect that the number of hacked OTA units would be minimal at best and probably not worth the effort on their part. Adding the cablecard functionality is already built into a machine that you paid for. The socket is there and the software already supports it. Since it would already have lifetime I don't think you even need to register it with an account on Tivo.com, especially if it's used as a standalone box.



foghorn2 said:


> The model numbers on the back are different, selling OTA's as Basics would be deceiving the buyer.


Not really. The only difference between the two is the cablecard slot. You install a cablecard slot from a Roamio Basic and the OTA now becomes a Roamio Basic. If you were to take an OTA without lifetime and install the cablecard slot the monthly fee still would be the same, as would lifetime service. It would be registered as an OTA with Tivo but have cablecard functionality. The only issue with doing it on a lifetimed OTA is that Tivo, Inc. might whine about it. I don't see where they'd have any room to complain because you're not circumventing any security features or disabling encryption. They have no right to penalize a customer for ingenuity. You're not depriving them of a darn thing. It's their own fault if they didn't have the foresight to realize that their customers are smart enough to upgrade an OTA to a Basic by adding the cablecard slot. If they didn't want the upgrade to be possible, all they had to do is leave the 68-pin header off of the mainboard. They clearly did not think it through.

FYI - I received one of the PCMCIA to PCI adapter cards yesterday. Even if I could somehow get the staggered pins aligned with the dual row header in the Roamio, the pins have been trimmed so short that I'm not sure they could be inserted far enough into the socket header to make contact. I've got one that was pulled from a Dell that has a ribbon cable and a connector on the end so I'll see if there's anything that can be done with it and report back.


----------



## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

heifer624 said:


> I bought these two on Ebay for $11 after mr.unnatural's comment. Unknown if they would be exactly plug-n-play but maybe I could easily modify.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/111575875897


Just reporting my progress on this. I was able to modify and plug into the connector with the adapter but it is telling me the cable card is missing. I got no idea why its not working. I'll try to mess with again another day. Maybe someone else can report their success.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Absolutely. I wouldn't settle for anything less than full disclosure. I'm not sure that Tivo HQ would know if it had been upgraded with a cablecard slot or if they would even monitor it for anything of the sort. I suspect that the number of hacked OTA units would be minimal at best and probably not worth the effort on their part. Adding the cablecard functionality is already built into a machine that you paid for. The socket is there and the software already supports it. Since it would already have lifetime I don't think you even need to register it with an account on Tivo.com, especially if it's used as a standalone box.
> 
> Not really. The only difference between the two is the cablecard slot. You install a cablecard slot from a Roamio Basic and the OTA now becomes a Roamio Basic. If you were to take an OTA without lifetime and install the cablecard slot the monthly fee still would be the same, as would lifetime service. It would be registered as an OTA with Tivo but have cablecard functionality. The only issue with doing it on a lifetimed OTA is that Tivo, Inc. might whine about it. I don't see where they'd have any room to complain because you're not circumventing any security features or disabling encryption. They have no right to penalize a customer for ingenuity. You're not depriving them of a darn thing. It's their own fault if they didn't have the foresight to realize that their customers are smart enough to upgrade an OTA to a Basic by adding the cablecard slot. If they didn't want the upgrade to be possible, all they had to do is leave the 68-pin header off of the mainboard. They clearly did not think it through.
> 
> FYI - I received one of the PCMCIA to PCI adapter cards yesterday. Even if I could somehow get the staggered pins aligned with the dual row header in the Roamio, the pins have been trimmed so short that I'm not sure they could be inserted far enough into the socket header to make contact. I've got one that was pulled from a Dell that has a ribbon cable and a connector on the end so I'll see if there's anything that can be done with it and report back.


Using any TiVo for something it was not designed for will void any use problems, what would you say to a TiVo tech if your modifed TiVo OTA did not work/ or stopped working with a cable card ?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> Using any TiVo for something it was not designed for will void any use problems, what would you say to a TiVo tech if your modifed TiVo OTA did not work/ or stopped working with a cable card ?


A Roamio OTA is just a Tivo Basic without the cablecard slot, so how is it not designed to work as a Basic Roamio if you install the missing slot? That is exactly how it was designed. The software is exactly the same. It has nothing to do with the design but rather how the unit is marketed.

I wouldn't ever talk to a Tivo tech unless it was a last resort. I stand a better chance of fixing a broken Tivo myself than relying on those morons to do anything other than offer a refurbished replacement. Tivo's customer service is useless and their techs aren't any better. If the Tivo stopped working then I'd remove the cablecard slot and return it to the original configuration. Only then would I even consider contacting Tivo for any assistance in getting a replacement unit.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> ..........
> I wouldn't ever talk to a Tivo tech unless it was a last resort. I stand a better chance of fixing a broken Tivo myself than relying on those morons to do anything other than offer a refurbished replacement. .........


LOL That may be a **little** harsh. It reminds me of a scene in "Planes, Trains and Automobiles" where Del Griffith says " ... you'd stand a better chance playing pick-up-sticks with your butt cheeks".


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> A Roamio OTA is just a Tivo Basic without the cablecard slot, so how is it not designed to work as a Basic Roamio if you install the missing slot? That is exactly how it was designed. The software is exactly the same. It has nothing to do with the design but rather how the unit is marketed.
> 
> I wouldn't ever talk to a Tivo tech unless it was a last resort. I stand a better chance of fixing a broken Tivo myself than relying on those morons to do anything other than offer a refurbished replacement. Tivo's customer service is useless and their techs aren't any better. If the Tivo stopped working then I'd remove the cablecard slot and return it to the original configuration. Only then would I even consider contacting Tivo for any assistance in getting a replacement unit.


TiVo would know what you did to their OTA TiVo, and could, if TiVo wanted to, stop the unit from working, I not saying they would but this is a little more that just changing out the hard drive. TiVo not selling this unit to work with cable cards, so they are selling it at a lower price because it will only work with OTA, so they could shut you down if they wanted. Again I not saying they would..but.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> TiVo would know what you did to their OTA TiVo, and could, if TiVo wanted to, stop the unit from working, I not saying they would but this is a little more that just changing out the hard drive. TiVo not selling this unit to work with cable cards, so they are selling it at a lower price because it will only work with OTA, so they could shut you down if they wanted. Again I not saying they would..but.


I'd be surprised if it even popped up on their radar. I'm not sure they'd have a legal right to shut it down, even if it was sold as an OTA Roamio. It wouldn't take much to prove that the functionality was already built in and that taking advantage of it doesn't violate any sort of agreement with Tivo. Considering that Tivo occasionally offers lifetime service at bargain basement prices on their other models, this isn't really any different.

In any case, if I decide to sell an OTA Roamio modified with a cablecard slot, I'd spell all of this out to any prospective buyer and point out the potential risk involved. Chances are it will be moot anyway if Amazon never ponies up the lifetime OTA units I've ordered, which I strongly suspect will be the case. I'm mainly interested in seeing whether or not the hack will work and so far everything points to that being true.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'd be surprised if it even popped up on their radar. I'm not sure they'd have a legal right to shut it down, even if it was sold as an OTA Roamio. It wouldn't take much to prove that the functionality was already built in and that taking advantage of it doesn't violate any sort of agreement with Tivo. Considering that Tivo occasionally offers lifetime service at bargain basement prices on their other models, this isn't really any different.


I think TiVo has the legal right to turn off anybody's TiVo that takes apart their TiVo because of so called safety reasons and TiVo's T&C. TiVo has not done so with the hard drive change, but if you started selling 100s of TiVo-OTA Lifetime units modified for cable use, that could be a different story.
I know in the old days, for cable TV, if you circumvented the security and got channels you were not paying for the cable co could shut you down, I know people that happened to, and they did not modify the cable co equipment, just purchased a black market cable box. You would selling a black market OTA TiVo. The whole thing may be moot as we don't know how easy it will be to get and modify these Lifetime OTA TiVos.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

lessd said:


> I think TiVo has the legal right to turn off anybody's TiVo that takes apart their TiVo because of so called safety reasons and TiVo's T&C. TiVo has not done so with the hard drive change, but if you started selling 100s of TiVo-OTA Lifetime units modified for cable use, that could be a different story.


You don't have to "take apart" an OTA to install the CableCard bracket. There is a trap door there that is designed to be opened and a slot designed to receive a CableCard bracket.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> You don't have to "take apart" an OTA to install the CableCard bracket. There is a trap door there that is designed to be opened and a slot designed to receive a CableCard bracket.


Your correct, but
I would say to modify any TiVo in a non authorized way would fail any legal test that TiVo could put you through.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

So no pictures, huh?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

unitron said:


> So no pictures, huh?


I'm supposed to get my OTA on Friday. So pictures next weekend. If I can remember how to post pictures.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

unitron said:


> So no pictures, huh?


What pics are wanted?

??? http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10542676#post10542676


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> I think TiVo has the legal right to turn off anybody's TiVo that takes apart their TiVo because of so called safety reasons and TiVo's T&C. TiVo has not done so with the hard drive change, but if you started selling 100s of TiVo-OTA Lifetime units modified for cable use, that could be a different story.
> I know in the old days, for cable TV, if you circumvented the security and got channels you were not paying for the cable co could shut you down, I know people that happened to, and they did not modify the cable co equipment, just purchased a black market cable box. You would selling a black market OTA TiVo. The whole thing may be moot as we don't know how easy it will be to get and modify these Lifetime OTA TiVos.


What am I taking apart? Tivo put a removable cover over the cablecard slot that anyone can access. The mod is literally plug and play. The irony is that Tivo facilitated the mod all by themselves with zero hacking involved. Technically, it wouldn't even be voiding the warranty because I wouldn't be opening the case. Plugging a cablecard slot into an a connector that was designed for it should not constitute altering the Tivo in any way. That would be like saying that plugging in a USB cable to the back of the Tivo somehow modifies it. There is no security being circumvented nor is there any encryption being bypassed.

We'll soon see how moot it is. I just got confirmation from Amazon that the three lifetimed Roamio OTA's that I had on backorder are soon to be shipped. I'm talking about three OTA Tivos, not hundreds of them. I'm not looking to turn this into a business. BTW, someone here has already verified that the mod works and was able to get a cablecard activated in a modified Roamio OTA.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

mr.unnatural said:


> BTW, someone here has already verified that the mod works and was able to get a cablecard activated in a modified Roamio OTA.


I'm on your side. Any more clues?


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

Excuse me Judge, 
Your Honor, you see here right on the back of my Roamio OTA where you hook your RG6 line up... right here where it says *Cable* /Ant. Also look right here where it has information printed about the *CableCard* trademark. Also notice the easily accessible trap door on the bottom for the CableCard connector.

The Judge then says, "Case Dismissed".


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> What am I taking apart? Tivo put a removable cover over the cablecard slot that anyone can access. The mod is literally plug and play. The irony is that Tivo facilitated the mod all by themselves with zero hacking involved. Technically, it wouldn't even be voiding the warranty because I wouldn't be opening the case. Plugging a cablecard slot into an a connector that was designed for it should not constitute altering the Tivo in any way. That would be like saying that plugging in a USB cable to the back of the Tivo somehow modifies it. There is no security being circumvented nor is there any encryption being bypassed. We'll soon see how moot it is. I just got confirmation from Amazon that the three lifetimed Roamio OTA's that I had on backorder are soon to be shipped. I'm talking about three OTA Tivos, not hundreds of them. I'm not looking to turn this into a business. BTW, someone here has already verified that the mod works and was able to get a cablecard activated in a modified Roamio OTA.





heifer624 said:


> Excuse me Judge, Your Honor, you see here right on the back of my Roamio OTA where you hook your RG6 line up... right here where it says Cable /Ant. Also look right here where it has information printed about the CableCard trademark. Also notice the easily accessible trap door on the bottom for the CableCard connector. The Judge then says, "Case Dismissed".


.......and the fact that you can plug in a Tuning Adapter to the Roamio OTA and it immediately pops up a message asking if you want to redo Guided Setup to add cable TV.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

heifer624 said:


> Excuse me Judge,
> Your Honor, you see here right on the back of my Roamio OTA where you hook your RG6 line up... right here where it says *Cable* /Ant. Also look right here where it has information printed about the *CableCard* trademark. Also notice the easily accessible trap door on the bottom for the CableCard connector.
> 
> The Judge then says, "Case Dismissed".


There are no trials at Gitmo.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

JoeKustra said:


> I'm on your side. Any more clues?


Check this thread, post #82:

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=528452&page=2

There's another thread where someone else also successfully activated their OTA with a cablecard, but I can't seem to find it. He had difficulty getting it activated at first, but it was mostly due to dealing with inexperienced techs and CSRs at his provider. Once he got someone that knew how to activate cablecards properly he was up and running.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Colonel Klink, I know nothing!


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

krkaufman said:


> There are no trials at Gitmo.


Ok, but Your president will let us all out by January 20, 2017 and we will be refuge-ed with full Gov benefits to a neighborhood near you!


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> What am I taking apart?


He's not going to let it go if you keep responding. Move along.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

krkaufman said:


> What pics are wanted?
> 
> ??? http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10542676#post10542676


Pictures of how cable card sockets are put into electrical connection with Roamio basic motherboards so I can see if sockets from 648s or 652/658s with dead motherboards would be usable.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I can take a picture of the slot in the OTA without the CableCARD bracket if that would help any.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

http://imgarcade.com/1/tivo-roamio-cablecard/


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I can take a picture of the slot in the OTA without the CableCARD bracket if that would help any.


















(had an unconnected OTA sitting right next to me)


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

That's great. Thanks.


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## lordrainkm (Sep 27, 2003)

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1PCS...face-connector-68P-1CA4A5AG1/32305349347.html

Actually it looks like the plastic shroud would have to be modified, and I'm not sure if it would physically fit under the OTA's trapdoor, but it still might be worth trying.


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## GeePea (May 28, 2013)

Just to confirm, I pulled the bracket from my basic (spare unit I got cheap on a bestbuy price match deal a couple of years ago) and put it into my lifetime OTA and cable setup went fine. I used the cablecard from my roamio plus. I didn't re-pair and was able to see all channels, including HD on Comcast.

The cablecard status page popped a few times over the first 10-15 mins and then settled down.

BTW: Looking at some of the teardowns for the Bolt, it looks like the bracket is the same as the Roamio basic


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Is there any sort of part number or identifying marks on the bracket that we could use to find a supplier? I mean someone must be making that thing.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> Is there any sort of part number or identifying marks on the bracket that we could use to find a supplier? I mean someone must be making that thing.


Probably Foxconn. They make 2/3 of everything. A number would be nice though.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Is there any sort of part number or identifying marks on the bracket that we could use to find a supplier? I mean someone must be making that thing.


Its an ancient Chinese Secret.


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## GeePea (May 28, 2013)

I checked all round the bracket and couldn't find any obvious part numbers markings.

If I get time over the holiday weekend, I'll pull it out again and use my magifying glass to see if I can spot anything.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

unitron said:


> Pictures of how cable card sockets are put into electrical connection with Roamio basic motherboards so I can see if sockets from 648s or 652/658s with dead motherboards would be usable.


They won't work. I searched online and found all kinds of pictures of Tivo motherboards and none of them have the same pin configuration. I believe the Premiere socket pins are surface mounted.

FYI - Amazon is now shipping lifetime Roamio OTAs for $299. I had three on backorder and just got the shipping notification with tracking number this morning. They should be here on Monday.



lordrainkm said:


> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1PCS...face-connector-68P-1CA4A5AG1/32305349347.html
> 
> Actually it looks like the plastic shroud would have to be modified, and I'm not sure if it would physically fit under the OTA's trapdoor, but it still might be worth trying.


It should fit fine. There's a fair amount of room under the cover and these slots aren't that tall. The mechanism protruding from the end is the release lever.

BTW, that is definitely made by Foxconn (the dead giveaway is that it says Foxconn in the link ). I can't get a good look at the pins so I'm not sure if they're the correct configuration (i.e., two parallel rows and not four staggered rows). If you order one, let us know how it works.

I ran a search on Aliexpress from the above link and found several PCMCIA brackets that look promising and appear to be relatively inexpensive. There's one dealer there called Mr_Li that provides his e-mail address for inquiries. I'm going to take a photo of the bracket and slot in the Roamio and send it to him to see if he carries a compatible bracket. Today will be a bit crazy so it may not happen until tomorrow at the earliest. I'll report back if I find out anything.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Update: I took some photos of the cablecard bracket and sent them attached to an e-mail to Mr_Li. He has an online store and sells in small quantities with reasonable shipping. I'll post another update as soon as I hear back from him.

I've attached a photo of the cablecard bracket showing the pin configuration.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Now that I know what's needed I can tell that the 648 isn't a suitable donor, but I'm not yet convinced the 652/658s might not be.

I'll need to take a dead one and take the mobo out and look at the bottom to be sure.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

unitron said:


> Now that I know what's needed I can tell that the 648 isn't a suitable donor, but I'm not yet convinced the 652/658s might not be.
> 
> I'll need to take a dead one and take the mobo out and look at the bottom to be sure.


Suit yourself. Checking for compatibility with older models was the first thing I looked into. There are lots of pics of Tivo motherboards online that are easily found with a google search.

Update on my e-mail to Mr_Li: I got a response this morning with pictures of a couple of different PCMCIA brackets. Unfortunately, neither of them had the pin configuration we're looking for. Right now the only way I'm aware of to perform the upgrade is to use a Roamio Basic as a donor unit.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Just a heads-up for anyone that bought the lifetime Roamio OTA from Amazon. These units are shipping with an older software version. You'll need to run guided setup so it can download the service update and install it. I discovered this when I tried to upgrade the hard drive to a 4TB drive without letting it update first. It got stuck in a reboot loop and displayed a message about a serious error occurring. Once I reinstalled the original drive it booted fine. I let it install the update and then installed the 4TB drive and let it format the new drive.

I tried running mfsr using an external USB docking bay, but I kept getting errors. It would recognize the drive just fine but would not allow the utility to run. I installed it in my HTPC using a spare SATA port and it worked with no problems. It only took a few minutes to work its magic. I had to rerun guided setup once it was installed in the Roamio, but now it shows I have about 641 hours of HD recording.

I transplanted a cablecard bracket from a donor Roamio Basic and popped in an M-card that I bought off ebay a while ago. When I powered up the Tivo it displayed the cablecard info page as soon as it booted up. I was able to set it up on my cable system (Verizon FIOS), but I never tried to activate it. The M-card won't work on my system because it didn't come from my provider.

Since these units were purchased from Amazon and not directly from Tivo you'll need to activate them either over the phone or online via the Tivo website. Until they're activated, the system status screen won't show them as having lifetime service.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I just saw the plethora of threads about Amazon and the so-called lifetime OTA units. Two of the three Roamio OTAs I upgraded are showing their status as 2: Not started so they apparently do not have lifetime service included. The third unit has a status of 5: Product Lifetime Service so apparently I got lucky with that one. Now I've got to deal with sending the other two units back to Amazon for either a replacement or a refund.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

mr.unnatural said:


> <snip/>I tried running mfsr using an external USB docking bay, but I kept getting errors. It would recognize the drive just fine but would not allow the utility to run. I installed it in my HTPC using a spare SATA port and it worked with no problems.<snip/>


I don't know that this was your problem, but some cheap and/or older USB docks have limits on the size of the disks they support; I've run into this in the past.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

That's definitely a possibility. The docking station is probably at least 3 or 4 years old. It wasn't that big of a deal since I have PCs up the wazoo in my house. I just slid the top cover off my HTPC and hooked up the drive. I read where it could take 30 minutes or longer to reformat the drive using an external bay. It only took about 3 or 4 minutes with it connected directly to the motherboard so I was better off anyway.

I had to swap out the 4TB drives with the original 500GB drives, remove the cablecard bracket, and now I'm running a Clear & Delete Everything to get them back to factory status. I'll try and contact Amazon to see what they're going to do about the non-lifetime units they shipped out.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> I read where it could take 30 minutes or longer to reformat the drive using an external bay. It only took about 3 or 4 minutes with it connected directly to the motherboard so I was better off anyway.


USB 2.0 docks usually take about 5-6 minutes to run mfsr. USB 3.0 or a direct SATA connection is much faster. It only writes about 5.8GB to the drive no matter what size it is.

FWIW, my older USB 2.0 Thermaltake docks won't recognize any drives over 2TB correctly.


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## apspeedbump (Mar 10, 2013)

Any reason to think trimming this down to the needed 2 rows of 34 wouldn't work?

PCMCIA standards state 1.27mm (.05 inch) between pins, but I couldn't fully determine that the pins themselves were small enough....though with that spacing, I felt it was a strong enough likelihood to order:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-PCS-100Pi...ight-Male-Right-Angle-Pin-Header/271305310484


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

apspeedbump said:


> Any reason to think trimming this down to the needed 2 rows of 34 wouldn't work?
> 
> PCMCIA standards state 1.27mm (.05 inch) between pins, but I couldn't fully determine that the pins themselves were small enough....though with that spacing, I felt it was a strong enough likelihood to order:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-PCS-100Pi...ight-Male-Right-Angle-Pin-Header/271305310484


Hi,
For the investment, it is worth a try, but after taking a look at the size of the holes on the card itself, I am guessing that those standard pins are going to be too large. Best of luck though, please advise when you know for sure.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> There are different versions of PCMCIA cards. Perhaps your Toshiba only accepts older, slimmer versions of the cards. I thought the pinouts were the same for all versions and just the thickness of the cards varied, but I really didn't pay that much attention when I was looking for info on the connectors.


I don't think anybody has used PCMCIA Type 1 for a very long time, PCMCIA Type 2 was used on most laptops before PCMCIA died, and it's the same form factor that is used for CableCard today. PCMCIA Type 3 was a double-thickness card, but most laptops that could take a PCMCIA Type 3 could take two PCMCIA Type 2 cards instead. I remember combo NIC/modem cards that would go in a PCMCIA Type 3 slot without needing a dongle. Man, that was a while ago!



tarheelblue32 said:


> It's not the card, it's the bracket that holds the card. If you can get your hands on the CableCard bracket, you essentially turn a Roamio OTA into a base Roamio.


I'm amazing that TiVo hasn't killed this in software. They easily could, since they know what units are Roamio OTAs versus regular Roamios.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bigg said:


> I'm amazing that TiVo hasn't killed this in software. They easily could, since they know what units are Roamio OTAs versus regular Roamios.


Methinks they have bigger fish to fry.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Bigg said:


> ....
> I'm amazing that TiVo hasn't killed this in software. They easily could, since they know what units are Roamio OTAs versus regular Roamios.


If they did this now after the Roamios are now discontinued, it will prove them to be a bunch of jerks.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

foghorn2 said:


> If they did this now after the Roamios are now discontinued, it will prove them to be a bunch of jerks.


1. You can still buy a Roamio.

2. The Roamio OTA was never intended to be used with a CableCard.

3. It could bring up all sorts of issues both with CableLabs and the FCC certification.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Bigg said:


> 1. You can still buy a Roamio.
> 
> 2. The Roamio OTA was never intended to be used with a CableCard.
> 
> 3. It could bring up all sorts of issues both with CableLabs and the FCC certification.


1. I did, I have several

2. Right, we know that, thats why there is no bracket, but the socket is there.

3. Whos complaining, the products are already sold and the owner owns it and do with it what he/she pleases.

I chip/tuned my Mustang, added lopey cams, Ford and the EPA can F off!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

foghorn2 said:


> 1. I did, I have several
> 
> 2. Right, we know that, thats why there is no bracket, but the socket is there.
> 
> ...


1. Then two posts ago, why did you say they are discontinued?

2. Right. Same PCB design. Never intended to be used as a CableCard device.

3. You could argue that modifying the OTA to support CableCard likely would have no affect on anything else. You'd probably be right. But it's still a potential liability for TiVo from a regulatory perspective.

And if a car is not meeting EPA regs, that is a real problem, and that car shouldn't be able to be registered at a minimum. I'm not sure how CARB handles stuff like that, since they are the nation's, and in some ways the world's leading regulator on emissions regulations.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> 1. You can still buy a Roamio.
> 
> 2. The Roamio OTA was never intended to be used with a CableCard.


Then why does the software support it? When you run guided setup on a Roamio OTA it asks you right up front whether you want to configure it for OTA or cable. Sounds to me like it was intended for use with a cablecard. They just took a shortcut and left out the bracket in order to sell it as an OTA-only unit. Put in the bracket and it instantly becomes a Roamio Basic, which was intended for cablecard use.



> 3. It could bring up all sorts of issues both with CableLabs and the FCC certification.


Why? It's the exact same platform as the Roamio Basic. All they did was leave out the cablecard bracket and slap a label with a different part number on it. It's like taking a white horse and painting black stripes on it and trying to pass it off as a zebra. It's the same beast underneath.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Then why does the software support it? When you run guided setup on a Roamio OTA it asks you right up front whether you want to configure it for OTA or cable. Sounds to me like it was intended for use with a cablecard. They just took a shortcut and left out the bracket in order to sell it as an OTA-only unit. Put in the bracket and it instantly becomes a Roamio Basic, which was intended for cablecard use.
> 
> Why? It's the exact same platform as the Roamio Basic. All they did was leave out the cablecard bracket and slap a label with a different part number on it. It's like taking a white horse and painting black stripes on it and trying to pass it off as a zebra. It's the same beast underneath.


Does anybody know if TiVo pays a license fee for the cable card slot ?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It's just PCMCIA. They pay a fee to have devices certified for CableCARD though. And technically the OTA is not certified, so CableLabs could have an issue with this. I would not depend on it if I were you. TiVo could easily shut this down via software and there is nothing you could do about it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> It's just PCMCIA. They pay a fee to have devices certified for CableCARD though. And technically the OTA is not certified, so CableLabs could have an issue with this. I would not depend on it if I were you. TiVo could easily shut this down via software and there is nothing you could do about it.


While the OTA is technically not certified, the only difference between it and the Roamio basic is the cablecard bracket. Add the bracket to a Roamio OTA and you now have a Roamio Basic, which is certified. The model number is just a number. It's a technicality, but a slim one at best. If you blacked out the label on a Roamio OTA that had been upgraded with the cablecard bracket, you wouldn't be able to discern that it was actually an OTA model without looking at the System Information screen.

I don't know how things go with respect to paying CableLabs, but I suspect they pay up front to have a device certified and not a royalty for each device sold. That being the case, I doubt that they'd have an issue with a Roamio OTA being modified to a Roamio Basic since they've already certified the Basic model. There would have to be a difference between the two models other than just the cablecard bracket to make them unique. It was just cheaper for Tivo to design and build a single model and leave out the bracket for the OTA version.

Tivo got lazy with respect to issuing unique software for the OTA. They could easily modify the code to eliminate the setup for digital cable in the OTA model. It would probably be as simple as commenting out some lines of code to remove the option. They left the door wide open by leaving things the way they are. I honestly doubt that they'd care all that much since the number of units that may eventually be modified in this manner would likely be a drop in the bucket and not worth the effort to do anything about them from their perspective.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> While the OTA is technically not certified, the only difference between it and the Roamio basic is the cablecard bracket. Add the bracket to a Roamio OTA and you now have a Roamio Basic, which is certified. The model number is just a number. It's a technicality, but a slim one at best. If you blacked out the label on a Roamio OTA that had been upgraded with the cablecard bracket, you wouldn't be able to discern that it was actually an OTA model without looking at the System Information screen.
> 
> I don't know how things go with respect to paying CableLabs, but I suspect they pay up front to have a device certified and not a royalty for each device sold. That being the case, I doubt that they'd have an issue with a Roamio OTA being modified to a Roamio Basic since they've already certified the Basic model. There would have to be a difference between the two models other than just the cablecard bracket to make them unique. It was just cheaper for Tivo to design and build a single model and leave out the bracket for the OTA version.
> 
> Tivo got lazy with respect to issuing unique software for the OTA. They could easily modify the code to eliminate the setup for digital cable in the OTA model. It would probably be as simple as commenting out some lines of code to remove the option. They left the door wide open by leaving things the way they are. I honestly doubt that they'd care all that much since the number of units that may eventually be modified in this manner would likely be a drop in the bucket and not worth the effort to do anything about them from their perspective.


I sure if you modify a few OTA units no problems, but if you started a business of selling a large number of these units on say E-Bay you than may have a problem.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> If you blacked out the label on a Roamio OTA that had been upgraded with the cablecard bracket, you wouldn't be able to discern that it was actually an OTA model without looking at the System Information screen.


... or at the green "*TiVo* Roamio|OTA" printed on the faceplate.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

krkaufman said:


> ... or at the green "*TiVo* Roamio OTA" printed on the faceplate.


I have three OTA units and I don't recall seeing that label on the faceplate.



lessd said:


> I sure if you modify a few OTA units no problems, but if you started a business of selling a large number of these units on say E-Bay you than may have a problem.


I agree. I was just fortunate enough to grab three of them to play with. I've listed them on ebay as a direct sale, but so far no takers. I may change the listing and sell them as OTA units with the option to make the modification for just the cost of the donor Roamio Basic.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> I have three OTA units and I don't recall seeing that label on the faceplate.


Do you recall looking closely?

http://cnet4.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2014/10/01/04b0dd1e-3207-4bbc-92f0-50c51ba4c8ae/flroamioota.jpg

(Even I hadn't looked closely enough; label updated)


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Then why does the software support it?


Rush/sloppy rollout of the software.



> Sounds to me like it was intended for use with a cablecard.


Definitely not. The OTA was NEVER intended to be used with cable.



> Why? It's the exact same platform as the Roamio Basic. All they did was leave out the cablecard bracket and slap a label with a different part number on it. It's like taking a white horse and painting black stripes on it and trying to pass it off as a zebra. It's the same beast underneath.


I understand that technically, it's the same thing. However, the FCC and CableLabs are both extremely strict in how they certify devices, and they aren't likely to look kindly on this type of thing.



mr.unnatural said:


> I don't know how things go with respect to paying CableLabs, but I suspect they pay up front to have a device certified and not a royalty for each device sold. That being the case, I doubt that they'd have an issue with a Roamio OTA being modified to a Roamio Basic since they've already certified the Basic model.


I think it's more of a security issue. Although the OTA has the same software now, and the same security in it, they don't know that, and TiVo doesn't have to keep it that way (in theory). They are extremely strict about their security system.



> I honestly doubt that they'd care all that much since the number of units that may eventually be modified in this manner would likely be a drop in the bucket and not worth the effort to do anything about them from their perspective.


I don't think they will care unless they believe or know that there is a risk of CableLabs/FCC giving them grief over it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah a handful of us installing brackets to get CableCARD support probably isn't going to raise any eyebrows. But who knows, maybe TiVo will disable it via software just to be safe. I certainly wouldn't depend on it working long term, or risk selling one as a cable device.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Look at it this way, if they disable it, it will be a good time to show the cable industry the finger and go OTA only.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Bigg said:


> the FCC and CableLabs are both extremely strict in how they certify devices, and they aren't likely to look kindly on this type of thing.


CableLabs is a cable company trade association and they can do what they want. The FCC is a government agency with some degree of responsibility to people, and is not apt to have an objection.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

foghorn2 said:


> Look at it this way, if they disable it, it will be a good time to show the cable industry the finger and go OTA only.


Sure, if you want to lose 90-95% of the HD content that your TiVo gets.



Wil said:


> CableLabs is a cable company trade association and they can do what they want. The FCC is a government agency with some degree of responsibility to people, and is not apt to have an objection.


Both have very strict standards. They could intervene. Maybe they won't. But I sure wouldn't want to find my hack-job of a TiVo not working one day because TiVo pre-emptively disabled cable functionality, or was forced to do so.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Both have very strict standards. They could intervene. Maybe they won't. But I sure wouldn't want to find my hack-job of a TiVo not working one day because TiVo pre-emptively disabled cable functionality, or was forced to do so.


I am sure that TiVo will not care about a few units that people have put cable cards in, as I doubt their in house software would flag it, BUT when I purchased a Roamio Plus a few month ago for $450 with Lifetime service and compare that to a OTA TiVo costing $150 less and having a smaller drive, and the need to purchase the cable card holder or a dead TiVo basic, the savings to risk does not look so great, unless you want to start a business of converting these OTA units and selling them on E-Bay, that could be a real problem, that TiVo may care about.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Rush/sloppy rollout of the software.


There wasn't any software rollout per se. They simply left the cablecard bracket out of the existing Roamio Basic to hamper the ability to use a cablecard and used the same software. It was a quick and dirty method to create a new model to market to a niche audience.



> Definitely not. The OTA was NEVER intended to be used with cable.


It couldn't be used with encrypted cable right out of the box, but it could probably be used with clear QAM channels. It just wasn't marketed for use with cable.



> I understand that technically, it's the same thing. However, the FCC and CableLabs are both extremely strict in how they certify devices, and they aren't likely to look kindly on this type of thing.


The point I've been trying to make is that if you install the cablecard bracket in a Roamio OTA, it then becomes a Roamio Basic, which is most definitely certified by CableLabs. Technically, when you add the bracket you automatically roll the part number to reflect a Basic Roamio. That's exactly what happens when they manufacture these units. They simply pull them off the assembly line prior to the bracket being installed and put them in a chassis that has the OTA logo and part number. If you look at the System Information screen on both units it just shows it as a Tivo Series 5 and does not differentiate between an OTA or Basic unit. The only way to tell the difference would be to look at the label or the name on the front panel (I still have to check to see if it says OTA on the front). Case in point, if I open up the access panel and remove the cablecard bracket from a Roamio Basic I have now created a Roamio OTA. If I add the bracket back in I have just converted it back to a Roamio Basic. Installing the bracket in a unit that was sold as an OTA is no different.



> I think it's more of a security issue. Although the OTA has the same software now, and the same security in it, they don't know that, and TiVo doesn't have to keep it that way (in theory). They are extremely strict about their security system.


How is this a security issue? There is no circumvention of copy protection or other security measures employed by Tivo. There is no modification done to the platform other than installing a bracket in a socket that is already provided. The access panel is provided so it's simply a matter of plugging in the connector and securing the bracket with four screws. You don't have to open the case so there's no voiding of the warranty either.



> I don't think they will care unless they believe or know that there is a risk of CableLabs/FCC giving them grief over it.


I don't see where they'd have any recourse to complain about it. The only difference between the platforms is the bracket. Install the bracket and you now have a certified cablecard device. The only way Tivo will ever know the difference is if they compare the TSN with their database of sold units to determine whether it's an OTA or a Basic Roamio. It may automatically show up that way on your account when you register it, but chances are it won't matter.

All of this supposition from either perspective is irrelevant. Tivo will do whatever they please when it comes to these units and there's not much we can do about it. Hackers have been modifying Tivos for years and I don't recall ever hearing that Tivo shut any of them down for doing far more than this type of mod.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

It's not uncommon for products that have premium feature sets to physically differ from non-premium products by a simple little modification -- _seemingly_ very inconsistent with a substantial price difference.

I worked for a company that made high end video projectors and they had deluxe feature sets that depended only on installing a jumper wire (or toggling a DIP switch, or similar -- don't remember what it was exactly). And the deluxe features added thousands of $$ to the price. The rationale for this is recovering the development costs (software and/or hardware) associated with the deluxe features, i.e. only customers who want those features pay for their development.

I don't know if this rationale applies to this thread topic, but it seems possible.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

dlfl said:


> It's not uncommon for products that have premium feature sets to physically differ from non-premium products by a simple little modification -- _seemingly_ very inconsistent with a substantial price difference.
> 
> I worked for a company that made high end video projectors and they had deluxe feature sets that depended only on installing a jumper wire (or toggling a DIP switch, or similar -- don't remember what it was exactly). And the deluxe features added thousands of $$ to the price. The rationale for this is recovering the development costs (software and/or hardware) associated with the deluxe features, i.e. only customers who want those features pay for their development.
> 
> I don't know if this rationale applies to this thread topic, but it seems possible.


Shhhhh....you're giving away all our secrets! 

I used to do these types of things with TAW, Inc. and their Rock+/Pro Scalars, DigiLink SDI DVD Player, and high end CRT Projectors, the TAW-HD800/900.

What company are you referring to?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

HarperVision said:


> Shhhhh....you're giving away all our secrets!
> 
> I used to do these types of things with TAW, Inc. and their Rock+/Pro Scalars, DigiLink SDI DVD Player, and high end CRT Projectors, the TAW-HD800/900.
> 
> What company are you referring to?


I won't say -- to protect the innocent and/or guilty!  These kinds of things were a frequent inside joke. But seriously, the rationale can be perfectly valid IMHO.

A more complex moral/ethical question arises in other cases, such as pricing of drugs sold in the USA at several times what they sell for in other countries. The rationale there is _supposedly_ that USA consumers can afford to pay more and that allows them to charge less in the poorer other countries.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

dlfl said:


> These kinds of things were a frequent inside joke. But seriously, the rationale can be perfectly valid IMHO.


Same rationale as charging extra for "rush" service as opposed to exceptioning from the normal delivery process to force an item sit in a warehouse for several days.

It used to drive me crazy when I would contract for items to be produced from a particular company. My sales rep would let me know that the items were finished, but he couldn't give them to me yet because they had a premium speed level of service I wasn't contracted for. Sure the rationale can be "valid" from a point of view, but I don't think this kind of thing was what Adam Smith had in mind.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Yeah, another good example of that was when I was in Afghanistan, they sold AT&T phone cards and SIM cards that charged $4/minute to call back to the US and they advertised with banners all over talking about how "AT&T Supports Our Troops!" and crap, preying on those poor, underpaid, low ranking soldiers, sailors and airmen and raking them over the coals, but you could just walk into the local phone shop at the PX/BX complex and buy a Roshan (local Cell Service Co.) phone or SIM card to use or put in your phone and then call the US *OVER THE SAME CELLULAR NETWORK* for only 40 cents/minute!!! What the hell makes AT&T so much more worth it at 10 times the cost? 

I'll tell you....NOTHING but pure greed and abuse of our young military, that's what!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

The OTA was never _intended_ to be used with cable. No TiVo was ever intended to be used with Clear QAM, due to the way they map channels.

It remains to be seen what happens to these things. It just sounds like a pointless tinkering project. Ok, somebody did it once, it worked, time to move on.



dlfl said:


> A more complex moral/ethical question arises in other cases, such as pricing of drugs sold in the USA at several times what they sell for in other countries. The rationale there is _supposedly_ that USA consumers can afford to pay more and that allows them to charge less in the poorer other countries.


Yeah, it's fine for high-end projects. But for drugs that are important for some people to stay healthy/alive, it is totally wrong. But that's the system our government has set up. They should regulate prices like every other western country. We are basically paying for R&D and massive profits for the drug companies for the rest of the world.



HarperVision said:


> Yeah, another good example of that was when I was in Afghanistan, they sold AT&T phone cards and SIM cards that charged $4/minute to call back to the US...


I've seen these things donated for troop care package sorts of things. What amazes me is that the military doesn't provide that type of connectivity. They can drop gigabit speeds into basically anywhere on the planet via satellite with VOIP and the whole nine yards, you'd think that they could use extra bandwidth to let the troops call back into the US. Cut them off if the bandwidth is really needed for the mission, but with the capabilities they have, I'm sure they have plenty of it 99% of the time.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> The OTA was never _intended_ to be used with cable. No TiVo was ever intended to be used with Clear QAM, due to the way they map channels.
> 
> It remains to be seen what happens to these things. It just sounds like a pointless tinkering project. Ok, somebody did it once, it worked, time to move on.


Pointless to you, perhaps, but somehow that doesn't surprise me.  Saving hundreds of dollars on overinflated lifetime service doesn't seem pointless to me. I'm not a current Tivo user so I'm not eligible for the special e-mail deals that Tivo's been offering to existing customers. If you've been paying attention that you'd realize that at least several people have done the mod successfully and gotten cablecards activated in their modified OTA units.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> Pointless to you, perhaps, but somehow that doesn't surprise me.  Saving hundreds of dollars on overinflated lifetime service doesn't seem pointless to me. I'm not a current Tivo user so I'm not eligible for the special e-mail deals that Tivo's been offering to existing customers. If you've been paying attention that you'd realize that at least several people have done the mod successfully and gotten cablecards activated in their modified OTA units.


Well said.

I bought the OTA lifetime unit as a future strategy because I expect in a couple years to move to a place where I'll go strictly OTA and my Pro unit won't work. But right now I still have cable, so I'd like to be able to use that OTA unit for cable. Where I live right now I have terrible, almost no, OTA signal. So I bought a Basic (no lifetime) from eBay and am using that cable card adapter in my lifetime OTA unit.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Bigg said:


> It just sounds like a pointless tinkering project. Ok, somebody did it once, it worked, time to move on.


As far as moving on, yes your unusual opinion on this has been well-established and perhaps it is time for another hobby.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

hummingbird_206 said:


> Well said.
> 
> I bought the OTA lifetime unit as a future strategy because I expect in a couple years to move to a place where I'll go strictly OTA and my Pro unit won't work. But right now I still have cable, so I'd like to be able to use that OTA unit for cable. Where I live right now I have terrible, almost no, OTA signal. So I bought a Basic (no lifetime) from eBay and am using that cable card adapter in my lifetime OTA unit.


Nice! :up:


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> There wasn't any software rollout per se. They simply left the cablecard bracket out of the existing Roamio Basic to hamper the ability to use a cablecard and used the same software. It was a quick and dirty method to create a new model to market to a niche audience.
> 
> It couldn't be used with encrypted cable right out of the box, but it could probably be used with clear QAM channels. It just wasn't marketed for use with cable.
> 
> ...


Just to be nitpicky and pedantic, if you put a cablecard bracket in an OTA Roamio, you may have one that works with cable cards, and the cable company might not be able to tell the difference, and TiVo might not have set up to notice the difference, but you will not have a "certified" cablecard device, unless on the one in a zillion zillion chance that TiVo actually submitted an OTA Roamio with the provision for an owner-added bracket to Cable Labs for certification.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

unitron said:


> Just to be nitpicky and pedantic, if you put a cablecard bracket in an OTA Roamio, you may have one that works with cable cards, and the cable company might not be able to tell the difference, and TiVo might not have set up to notice the difference, but you will not have a "certified" cablecard device, unless on the one in a zillion zillion chance that TiVo actually submitted an OTA Roamio with the provision for an owner-added bracket to Cable Labs for certification.


That's a really interesting point. I guess the cable company would be within their right to refuse to put a CableCard in it. Of course that assumes they know what it even is, which is doubtful given the lack of knowledge with CableCard, but it's possible that a CableCard tech on Comcast or another large provider might start noticing.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

why sweat it when maybe a dozen people total will even attempt it?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ncbill said:


> why sweat it when maybe a dozen people total will even attempt it?


I really hope TiVo fixes their software to lock out CableCard on these things.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bigg said:


> I really hope TiVo fixes their software to lock out CableCard on these things.


Yeah, and then accidentally let that "fix" slip through to all the Roamios.


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## raqball (Feb 23, 2015)

This thread is well...... LOL

Why do people even care if someone put a bracket in their OTA? Sometime you just have to shake your head and laugh, which is what I am doing after reading some of the responses here...

And now, back to the regularly scheduled hate fest.....


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> I really hope TiVo fixes their software to lock out CableCard on these things.


Why would TiVo spend any money on this issue, it would be less costly for TiVo to flag the few people that put the cable card into the OTA unit and just give them a Roamio basic, if someone starts a business doing this, that another problem.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> Why would TiVo spend any money on this issue, it would be less costly for TiVo to flag the few people that put the cable card into the OTA unit and just give them a Roamio basic, if someone starts a business doing this, that another problem.


If Tivo thought about spending any money to make the platforms unique then they probably would have done it. Any sort of software "fix" to disable cablecard use in a Roamio OTA would have to target specific TSNs, and you know darn well that there would likely be some spillover where Basic users would get hit and have their units disabled in the process. I think Tivo just rolled the dice and hoped that no one would realize they could simply install a cablecard bracket in a Roamio OTA and turn it into a Roamio Basic.



unitron said:


> Just to be nitpicky and pedantic, if you put a cablecard bracket in an OTA Roamio, you may have one that works with cable cards, and the cable company might not be able to tell the difference, and TiVo might not have set up to notice the difference, but you will not have a "certified" cablecard device, unless on the one in a zillion zillion chance that TiVo actually submitted an OTA Roamio with the provision for an owner-added bracket to Cable Labs for certification.


I get what you're saying and don't really disagree. The point is that the simple addition of a cablecard bracket to a Roamio OTA instantly converts it to a Roamio Basic, regardless of who installed it. The hardware and software capability is already built in and has already been certified. The only thing missing is the interface with the cablecard, which is basically nothing more than an extension cable. If you take a Roamio Basic and remove the bracket, does it somehow make it any less certified for cablecard use? That's exactly what you have with a Roamio OTA.


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## RoamioJeff (May 9, 2014)

mr.unnatural said:


> If Tivo thought about spending any money to make the platforms unique then they probably would have done it. Any sort of software "fix" to disable cablecard use in a Roamio OTA would have to target specific TSNs, and you know darn well that there would likely be some spillover where Basic users would get hit and have their units disabled in the process. I think Tivo just rolled the dice and hoped that no one would realize they could simply install a cablecard bracket in a Roamio OTA and turn it into a Roamio Basic.


You are correct. There are a few historical examples of this. Back in the day I owned an early version of the Sportster 14400 dial-up modem. There was a famous "secret" AT command string that would enable the features of a significantly higher-priced modem. The engineers were lazy, and the company saved money by marketing two identical products, with the more expensive one having simple bit switch enabled. Once the secret was out they changed the design. Luckily, back then, USR could not reach across the internet and disable the "feature".


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

krkaufman said:


> Yeah, and then accidentally let that "fix" slip through to all the Roamios.


Not all Roamios, just any TiVos owned by Bigg


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

Bigg said:


> I really hope TiVo fixes their software to lock out CableCard on these things.


Why would they care? They are getting their $15 subscription fee either way. Additionally, I believe their programmers are busy enough these days with the 20.5.6 nightmare they've caused themselves.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

heifer624 said:


> Why would they care? They are getting their $15 subscription fee either way. Additionally, I believe their programmers are busy enough these days with the 20.5.6 nightmare they've caused themselves.


These are lifetime units, not monthly subs.


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

mr.unnatural said:


> These are lifetime units, not monthly subs.


Subject/object of original thread is an improvised cable card adapter for Roamio OTA regardless of service fee payment plan. just sayin'


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

heifer624 said:


> Why would they care? They are getting their $15 subscription fee either way. Additionally, I believe their programmers are busy enough these days with the 20.5.6 nightmare they've caused themselves.


I think it depends if CableLabs or the FCC gives them crap for it they will. Otherwise, I doubt they will care. Technically, adding the bracket is illegal, and is not authorized to have a CableCard inserted, but if I had to bet, I'd probably bet that both CableLabs and the FCC have bigger fish to fry than this sort of low-level cheating.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Why would cable labs, presumably funded and run by the cable companies, be upset that someone added a cablecard bracket to allow them to use a device designed to cut their cable and fees, to watch and pay for said cable TV?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> Why would cable labs, presumably funded and run by the cable companies, be upset that someone added a cablecard bracket to allow them to use a device designed to cut their cable and fees, to watch and pay for said cable TV?


It is not certified by them. Therefore, cable companies do not have to provide a CableCard for it. Admittedly, the chance of a cable company figuring this out is near zero, considering half of them can't seem to figure out what a CableCard even IS, but technically, they should not be pairing CableCards with these things.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> It is not certified by them. Therefore, cable companies do not have to provide a CableCard for it. Admittedly, the chance of a cable company figuring this out is near zero, considering half of them can't seem to figure out what a CableCard even IS, but technically, they should not be pairing CableCards with these things.


You're missing my point. Why would they WANT TO not allow someone to pay for THEIR cable and make usually a minimum of $30+ per month from the subscriber and also give them one of their cablecards, possibly making another $2-5/month???


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> You're missing my point.


Yes, he is. It's like he has blinders on and sees only a cue card with his message. I feel like I'm at a party and everybody's pointing to someone and giggling and I feel like I'm supposed to know who this person is. Seems like he could be associated with Tivo in some way but that really doesn't make sense. Some kind of lobbyist? But I don't see any interest that makes sense in this crusade of his.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The only ones that would even remotely be ticked about doing the bracket upgrade would be Tivo. CableLabs and your provider wouldn't give a crap about it either way. CableLabs can only certify a device that's offered to the public and has no jurisdiction over what any consumer wants to do with hardware they own. Your provider won't care unless you try to contact them for tech support if there's a problem other than the cablecard functioning properly. Tivo would only care because they might feel they're losing revenue for not being able to sell a Roamio Basic with lifetime at a higher cost.

Based on what the hacking community has done with their units in the past, I suspect Tivo would turn a blind eye to anyone performing this mod. The number of modified units in the field would be minimal at best and probably not worth the time and expense for Tivo to weed out the few hacked units and attempt to disable them.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Based on what the hacking community has done with their units in the past, I suspect Tivo would turn a blind eye to anyone performing this mod. The number of modified units in the field would be minimal at best and probably not worth the time and expense for Tivo to weed out the few hacked units and attempt to disable them.


Similarly, the number of modified OTA->basic units in the field would VERY likely be dwarfed by the number of Roamio Plus models that have been upgraded to Roamio Pro capacity.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> You're missing my point. Why would they WANT TO not allow someone to pay for THEIR cable and make usually a minimum of $30+ per month from the subscriber and also give them one of their cablecards, possibly making another $2-5/month???


Well, by that logic, cable companies are just amazing giving out and supporting CableCards. Of course, we know the truth is about as far from that as you can get.

If they were competent enough to figure out what was going on here, which they probably aren't, considering they usually aren't competent enough to figure out how to set up a CableCard in the first place, they wouldn't want devices that aren't certified by CableLabs on their network.



mr.unnatural said:


> The only ones that would even remotely be ticked about doing the bracket upgrade would be Tivo. CableLabs and your provider wouldn't give a crap about it either way. CableLabs can only certify a device that's offered to the public and has no jurisdiction over what any consumer wants to do with hardware they own.


Wrong. I'm not saying that they will do anything about these units, as they probably have bigger fish to fry, but technically speaking, these things are NOT CableCard certified, and a cable provider should NOT pair CableCards to them.

The OTAs were never offered with CableLabs certification to the public, therefore, they shouldn't be allowed to attach to a cable network.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

Bigg said:


> If they were competent enough to figure out what was going on here, which they probably aren't, considering they usually aren't competent enough to figure out how to set up a CableCard in the first place, they wouldn't want devices that aren't certified by CableLabs on their network.


Translation: Bigg doesn't want you putting cablecard brackets in your TiVo OTA, therefore the cable companies *obviously* don't want you to either. 

*Don't even think about* removing tags from your mattresses, either...



> The OTAs were never offered with CableLabs certification to the public, therefore, they shouldn't be allowed to attach to a cable network.


Are you also a proponent of the goofy theory that TV viewers have an "implied contract" to watch commercials, and shouldn't be allowed to skip them?

People should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want with equipment they own. Sometimes that will mean using their stuff in ways that Bigg doesn't like, and without Bigg's approval. Really dude, get over yourself! 

[Snerd braces for name-calling and personal attacks]


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## raqball (Feb 23, 2015)

I often wonder why people, who don't care, waste their time and energy to completely derail a thread.. 

Can the dude just be blocked from posting in this thread please? :up:


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> Well, by that logic, cable companies are just amazing giving out and supporting CableCards. Of course, we know the truth is about as far from that as you can get. If they were competent enough to figure out what was going on here, which they probably aren't, considering they usually aren't competent enough to figure out how to set up a CableCard in the first place, they wouldn't want devices that aren't certified by CableLabs on their network. .........


Let me spell it out for you in simple terms:

1. Roamio OTA with no cablecard bracket added = $0 revenue potential for BiggMSO Cable Co. because they're using antenna.
2. Roamio OTA WITH cablecard bracket added (which, for all intents and purposes, is a basic Roamio now) = $20-300/month revenue potential for BiggMSO Cable Co.

So tell me again why BiggMSO Cable Co would be upset that we added a cablecard bracket to our Roamio OTAs?


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## raqball (Feb 23, 2015)

HarperVision said:


> Let me spell it out for you in simple terms:
> 
> 1. Roamio OTA with no cablecard bracket added = $0 revenue potential for BiggMSO Cable Co. because they're using antenna.
> 2. Roamio OTA WITH cablecard bracket added (which, for all intents and purposes, is a basic Roamio now) = $20-300/month revenue potential for BiggMSO Cable Co.
> ...


Well.... I'm pretty sure a modified Tivo OTA would not be allowed on the international space station.. I don't know for a fact but I assume they have a policy against bringing any personally modified electronics aboard. So there is that....

I am just trying to sarcastically cover all the bases that Bigg might mention next... LOL


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HarperVision said:


> So tell me again why BiggMSO Cable Co would be upset that we added a cablecard bracket to our Roamio OTAs?


Because the OTA was not certified by CableLabs to ensure it meets security standards and TiVo did not pay the fee to have that done.


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## elborak (Jul 15, 2014)

Bigg said:


> Well, by that logic, cable companies are just amazing giving out and supporting CableCards.


Mine is, thanks.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> Because the OTA was not certified by CableLabs to ensure it meets security standards and TiVo did not pay the fee to have that done.


They wouldn't and won't know, nor care. The chassis and EVERYTHING else "IS" an already certified design by cable labs. The ONLY thing missing is the bracket and it has a new green lettered, silk screened top cover.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

elborak said:


> Mine is, thanks.


We found the one guy on the whole forum who had a positive experience with CableCard!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> They wouldn't and won't know, nor care. The chassis and EVERYTHING else "IS" an already certified design by cable labs. The ONLY thing missing is the bracket and it has a new green lettered, silk screened top cover.


NO. Everything else is NOT certified by CableLabs. The WHOLE DEVICE would have to be certified by CableLabs. Would anyone figure this out? Most likely not. But technically, the cable company has ZERO obligation to allow a CableCard to be used with a modified Roamio OTA.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

Bigg said:


> NO. Everything else is NOT certified by CableLabs. The WHOLE DEVICE would have to be certified by CableLabs. Would anyone figure this out? Most likely not. But technically, the cable company has ZERO obligation to allow a CableCard to be used with a modified Roamio OTA.


OK *technically* you might have a valid point. Heads up for anyone who adds a CableCard bracket to a Roamio OTA: by modifying your "technically uncertified" TiVo, you forfeit your right to gripe to the FCC if your cable company refuses to support your equipment. Proceed at your own risk


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## raqball (Feb 23, 2015)

Well this thread has ruined by one person with an ego and / or on some type of very odd mission..

This could have been a very informative thread but it was derailed and killed.. It's garbage like this that makes visiting forums a real bummer sometimes..


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

raqball said:


> Well this thread has ruined by one person with an ego and / or on some type of very odd mission..
> 
> This could have been a very informative thread but it was derailed and killed.. It's garbage like this that makes visiting forums a real bummer sometimes..


1. I stated some simple facts, and people decided they wanted to argue and make nonsensical arguments. Not my problem.

2. Just because they are making dumb arguments about what I am posting doesn't stop anyone else from posting more information about the CableCard bracket.

3. However, someone proved that it worked, so there's not much more to post about it. It's a basically pointless bit of geekery that was legitimately interesting. Back to the regularly scheduled programming folks.

It's TiVoCommunity, what do you expect?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Because the OTA was not certified by CableLabs to ensure it meets security standards and TiVo did not pay the fee to have that done.


The fee would be the only issue on this subject, TiVo could be dinged for making so easy to upgrade a OTA TiVo, (If purchasing a Roamio basic to only get the bracket then installing said bracket is easy). If someone found the correct cable card bracket that could purchased for around $10 or so, now you may get a problem, as some people may go into the business of converting a $299 Roamio OTA with All-In into a Roamio basic that now would cost $600 for All-in and a hardware cost, of about $200 for a real new Roamio basic, that = about $800, that would be a good business to go into. I wonder if somebody did that, if any laws would be broken, I know I would never take that chance, as TiVo could cut you off quick if they found out.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> We found the one guy on the whole forum who had a positive experience with CableCard!


Actually, I have never had a single bad experience with cablecards. I've had Verizon techs come out and set them up and then did several self-installs with no problem. That includes both Tivos and PC cablecard tuners.



raqball said:


> Well this thread has ruined by one person with an ego and / or on some type of very odd mission..
> 
> This could have been a very informative thread but it was derailed and killed.. It's garbage like this that makes visiting forums a real bummer sometimes..


You just have to realize that when certain people here get involved in a conversation it's like dumping a turd in the punch bowl. They approach any conversation with blinders on believing that their opinion is the only real truth and everyone else is wrong. You just have to learn to filter out the garbage from the facts.


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## raqball (Feb 23, 2015)

mr.unnatural said:


> You just have to realize that when certain people here get involved in a conversation it's like dumping a turd in the punch bowl. They approach any conversation with blinders on believing that their opinion is the only real truth and everyone else is wrong. You just have to learn to filter out the garbage from the facts.


Yeah I get it, it's the internet but still.. I understand I can just block the guy and not have to read what he writes but that won't hide the responses and the thread would still be cluttered..

It would have been nice to have an informative thread on the subject being discussed but that's obviously not possible here, which is kind of a bummer because there are a lot of helpful and knowledgeable members here..

I imagine only an handful of people will do what's being discussed here and I'd bet that Tivo won't care, the cable co's won't care, the NSA won't care and the government agency that hunts down felonious mattress tag removers won't care..

Hope the guy who destroyed this thread hasn't removed and replaced the OG hard drive that came in his Tivo......  

Oh well, it is what it is..


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> The fee would be the only issue on this subject, TiVo could be dinged for making so easy to upgrade a OTA TiVo, (If purchasing a Roamio basic to only get the bracket then installing said bracket is easy).


No, the issue would be that the device is not CableLabs certified, and the cable companies would have no way of knowing if it meets the security standards.



> I wonder if somebody did that, if any laws would be broken, I know I would never take that chance, as TiVo could cut you off quick if they found out.


Possible with the FCC, but not with the TiVo or selling it per se. TiVo would be well within their right to go back and update the software on all OTAs so that they cannot be used with any ATSC-QAM signals.



raqball said:


> It would have been nice to have an informative thread on the subject being discussed but that's obviously not possible here, which is kind of a bummer because there are a lot of helpful and knowledgeable members here..


Because clearly the forum thread has a finite capacity for the number of posts that posting about the FCC and CableLabs consequences of this fill up those fixed number of posts so that no one else can post anything else about it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HarperVision said:


> They wouldn't and won't know, nor care. The chassis and EVERYTHING else "IS" an already certified design by cable labs. The ONLY thing missing is the bracket and it has a new green lettered, silk screened top cover.


They may not care, but you can't guarantee it. And TiVo most certainly would know. They can tell on their end if an OTA is being set up with a cable lineup.

My biggest concern doing this is that TiVo will stop it via software just to be safe.


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## raqball (Feb 23, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> My biggest concern doing this is that TiVo will stop it via software just to be safe.


Can't they also tell if people have upgraded the hard drive and deny any warranty claim because of that?

I assume so and that has not stopped anyone from upgrading their HD and as far as I know, Tivo hasn't denied any warranty claims because of a HD upgrade.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

raqball said:


> Can't they also tell if people have upgraded the hard drive and deny any warranty claim because of that?
> 
> I assume so and that has not stopped anyone from upgrading their HD and as far as I know, Tivo hasn't denied any warranty claims because of a HD upgrade.


Upgrading the hard drive is far from adding a cable card bracket to the Roamio OTA, and if you call up with a TiVo problem AND if the CSR notices the upgraded hard drive (and that a big if), TiVo will not talk to you.

For warranty claims people just put the original hard drive back in, or should do that.


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## raqball (Feb 23, 2015)

lessd said:


> Upgrading the hard drive is far from adding a cable card bracket to the Roamio OTA


Really? Both are modifications.. So you are saying some modifications are okay and others are not.... Interesting.......


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

raqball said:


> Really? Both are modifications.. So you are saying some modifications are okay and others are not.... Interesting.......


Yes!! IMHO.


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## raqball (Feb 23, 2015)

lessd said:


> Yes!! IMHO.


I guess time will tell. I doubt many people would do this so why would Tivo put forth the time, effort and money to stop it?

Now if the bracket gets mass produced and a ton of OTA's start doing it sure Tivo might shut it down and I would not blame Tivo at all for doing so..

I guess anything is possible but I also believe that just about everyone who is interested in doing this would know there is a risk of Tivo putting an end to it..


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about any individuals trying to get the bracket mass produced. The cost would be prohibitive and you'd have to guarantee a minimum production run in the thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of units.

I'm pretty sure we all know that Tivo will do whatever they damn well please with respect to this issue and there's not much anyone can do about it. If they decide to blacklist modified units then that's that. As for any legal issues, if there even are any, I'd challenge Tivo or anyone else to tell me which unit is a Roamio Basic and which is a Roamio OTA that's been modified with the bracket without having to check the TSN or the logo on the front panel. I wouldn't be surprised if it could stand up in court that the addition of the cablecard bracket in a Roamio OTA converts it to a Roamio Basic which is most definitely certified by CableLabs.

Here's the irony with respect to the Tivo warranty. Upgrading your hard drive voids the warranty because you have to open the case to swap out the drive. The irony here is that Tivo has made it a simple task to perform a drive upgrade by the consumer. Installing the cablecard bracket should not affect your warranty in any way, shape, or form because you're simply installing it on a connector that they provide inside a cavity with an access panel that's built-in. You never have to open up the unit to do the mod and have therefore done absolutely nothing to void the warranty.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> They may not care, but you can't guarantee it. And TiVo most certainly would know. They can tell on their end if an OTA is being set up with a cable lineup. My biggest concern doing this is that TiVo will stop it via software just to be safe.


I wasn't referring to TiVo. I was referring to the cable Company not caring. I agree TiVo could certainly stop it if they wanted to. I doubt they will though.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Given this Thread TiVo may have their servers start to flag this issue and see how many people are doing this, 10 people no problem, 1000 show up, TiVo may just cut them off.


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## raqball (Feb 23, 2015)

lessd said:


> Given this Thread TiVo may have their servers start to flag this issue and see how many people are doing this, 10 people no problem, 1000 show up, TiVo may just cut them off.


I agree... We all know Tivo generally turns a blind eye to HD upgrades and those are done by the masses. This however is a different animal.

I doubt many people will do this and the few who do probably understand they are at risk of Tivo shutting it down.

I do have a question though. What happens if Tivo does shut it down? Can they completely kill your OTA and make it non functional because of this modification? I assume they would just kill the cable card part and let it still operate as an OTA but I guess anything is possible.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

raqball said:


> I do have a question though. What happens if Tivo does shut it down? Can they completely kill your OTA and make it non functional because of this modification? I assume they would just kill the cable card part and let it still operate as an OTA but I guess anything is possible.


TiVo could kill the Roamio OTA with a cable card installed, but that would be an extreme step for TiVo to take, but I have no idea how hard it would be just to kill the cable card function and keep the rest running. A flip of a software switch could put any or all cable card Roamio OTA units as *account closed. *


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## raqball (Feb 23, 2015)

lessd said:


> A flip of a software switch could put any or all cable card Roamio OTA units as *account closed. *


That would be my main worry.. Killing the card is one thing but killing the Tivo and / or closing the account would be another...

Just something for those considering doing this to kick around..

I am interested in this thread but I am not interested in doing it, at the moment at least..


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

raqball said:


> That would be my main worry.. Killing the card is one thing but killing the Tivo and / or closing the account would be another...
> 
> Just something for those considering doing this to kick around..
> 
> I am interested in this thread but I am not interested in doing it, at the moment at least..


Legally, I don't think they could kill an OTA completely because you were using it with a CableCard, though their kangaroo court arbitrator may very well let them get away with it. But if they actually did that, it would certainly be a dick move on TiVo's part.

Based on this threat, I don't think TiVo has that much to worry about. It seems that the only way to get one of these CableCard brackets is to salvage it out of a base Roamio, which will greatly limit the number of people who will attempt this.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't expect this to be a massive hack that will produce large numbers of new Roamio Basics out of OTAs. The majority of the people that purchased the OTA under the latest deal with lifetime probably aren't even aware of the hack. If any of them are existing Tivo customers then they could have gotten the Roamio Basic for about the same cost as the lifetime OTA and what a donor Basic would cost used. This is more of a novelty for some people and not a means to an end.

FWIW, I have three modified units listed on ebay. The listing clearly describes the mod and the potential risks involved. I also included a caveat that it would be stupid to contact Tivo Support for assistance on a modified unit because they would run the risk of getting their Tivo blacklisted. I have told any potential buyers to contact me for assistance in getting any issues resolved. I am including the original 500GB drive along with the modified unit upgraded with a 4TB drive.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't expect this to be a massive hack that will produce large numbers of new Roamio Basics out of OTAs. The majority of the people that purchased the OTA under the latest deal with lifetime probably aren't even aware of the hack. If any of them are existing Tivo customers then they could have gotten the Roamio Basic for about the same cost as the lifetime OTA and what a donor Basic would cost used. This is more of a novelty for some people and not a means to an end.
> 
> FWIW, I have three modified units listed on ebay. The listing clearly describes the mod and the potential risks involved. I also included a caveat that it would be stupid to contact Tivo Support for assistance on a modified unit because they would run the risk of getting their Tivo blacklisted. I have told any potential buyers to contact me for assistance in getting any issues resolved. I am including the original 500GB drive along with the modified unit upgraded with a 4TB drive.


Your better than most E-Bay sellers, if your customer understands what your saying, and the customer does not have problems 3 years down the road.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> Your better than most E-Bay sellers, if your customer understands what your saying, and the customer does not have problems 3 years down the road.


LOL, you are correct. I had one person contact me with a question and it was quite clear that he did not read the listing description because it was answered in the first couple of sentences. I can't help it if people are lazy and stupid.


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## scubastevexj (Jan 20, 2016)

mr.unnatural said:


> Suit yourself. Checking for compatibility with older models was the first thing I looked into. There are lots of pics of Tivo motherboards online that are easily found with a google search.
> 
> Update on my e-mail to Mr_Li: I got a response this morning with pictures of a couple of different PCMCIA brackets. Unfortunately, neither of them had the pin configuration we're looking for. Right now the only way I'm aware of to perform the upgrade is to use a Roamio Basic as a donor unit.


I had several conversations with Mr Li and ein the end, he said.

"Dear friend,
I can't browse your link,
Thanks for your understand!" and ended the conversation.

All of his diagrams he sent were 4x17, not 2x34.

check out samtec HPT-134-01-L-D-RA


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## donrull (Jul 20, 2011)

scubastevexj said:


> I had several conversations with Mr Li and ein the end, he said.
> 
> "Dear friend,
> I can't browse your link,
> ...


Has anyone tried this to see if it works?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Here is the part number (and source, apart from eBay and apart from taking the adapter from another TiVo box) I most often have seen referenced for adding a cablecard adapter to a Roamio OTA. Roamio OTA cable card slot?


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