# Is Tivo expensive? Even if free?



## goman (Dec 16, 2004)

I've tried to give away my Tivo to a few people and they all say that it is too expensive?

The $13/month fee, that is.

How can people be so financially illiterate? Tivo is cheap. Costs less than most DVDs. One of them that I was going to give it too has stacks and stacks of DVDs.

I just don't get it.


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## road1will (Jun 20, 2006)

Why are you giving your TiVo away?


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## road1will (Jun 20, 2006)

Oh and I dont think its expensive at all. I think its cheap. Before I got TiVo i was always either at work or spending family time and missed all my favorite TV shows. Now that I have TiVo I can watch all of my favorite TV shows as many times as I want, whenever I want.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

goman said:


> I've tried to give away my Tivo to a few people and they all say that it is too expensive?
> 
> The $13/month fee, that is.
> 
> ...


It makes perfect sense to me. That's why I threw out the idea of *TiVo Basic Lifetime* for $100 as a way of getting people who think they don't want a DVR at all to use TiVo at its simplest without any monthly fee.


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## goman (Dec 16, 2004)

I'm getting a new one. The 80 hour DT.


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## mhalver (Nov 3, 2005)

I do consider it to be a little expensive, however well worth it at the same time. Just the guide features alone are very nice as I can easily check which of my shows are going to be new without having to bring it up on my computer.

My mother considers it very expensive beings she only pays $4/month for her DVR. However, as I have told her many times, as she gets it with her digital cable subscription, it is a bit of a judgement call on how much she is really spending for it.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

goman said:


> How can people be so financially illiterate? Tivo is cheap. Costs less than most DVDs. One of them that I was going to give it too has stacks and stacks of DVDs.


But folks don't compare it to DVDs, and why would they? A stack of DVDs and a TiVo are different products. What they are comparing it to is the cable co's DVR which is generally $7 or so a month. So on strict finances, TiVo folks are the crazy ones for paying twice as much for the "same" thing.

You have to convince them that there is twice as much value in a TiVo as the cable DVR. *That's* the challenge.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

goman said:


> How can people be so financially illiterate? Tivo is cheap. Costs less than most DVDs. One of them that I was going to give it too has stacks and stacks of DVDs.


A DVD doesn't stop working after a month if you don't pay another $13 for it.

I *really* wish there were still lifetime subscriptions.. (My two Tivos are series 1s and have lifetime.)* I admit that the multi-discount price is much more compelling to me (i.e. it's much more than "twice as good" even though it's approx 1/2 the price), since I realize I'm paying almost the monthly fee for my phone line, which currently is only used for the Tivos to call... (yes, I should get the net adapters and try to get them to use wireless from downstairs to upstairs).

But I just think it's just a mindset thing.* Some people (like me) are very averse to spending every month.* Even with the multi-discount price, I would still rather pay lifetime, taking the gamble that it would be worth it in the long run.

Yes, I know people will bring up the various other things you can't pay "lifetime" for (cable bill, regular phone, etc..).


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I don't think TiVo is too expensive. Would I like it if it were cheaper? Sure. Would I activate a used unit if someone gave it to me for free? No. Why? Activating a used box locks you into a one year commitment. If I am going to have a one year commitment (or someone I would talk into getting TiVo) I would rather have new hardware for the minimal price that TiVo charges.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Without lifetime I would not have gotten any of my TiVos and I could not have convinced my kids, friends and relatives to get it. (about 50 TiVos in total). Lifetime made the total cost of ownership reasonable as they could be sold on E-Bay for about the cost of the lifetime (before lifetime was taken away, now some can be sold for more the the lifetime cost). Now a prepay 3 year plan cost $469. After that the hardware is worth about $50 net on E-Bay for a total cost of $419 every 3 years for a new box. With the old lifetime plan the hardware was about $70 after rebate (TiVo offered Lifetime at zero hardware cost of refurbished 40h Series 2). So the three year cost was at most $369, but the hardware after 3 years with lifetime was worth about $310 net on E-Bay (I know it more today because you can't get lifetime any other way) giving a total 3 year cost of $60, BIG difference.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I'm willing the pay $5.99 a month for all 5 of my active TiVo's. I was not willing to pay the standalone rates, and I am in the process of selling them off on eBay.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

$13 a month for guide data? You must MUST be joking. I would never ever pay that much. I have a lifetimed Tivo, and when it dies, I'm done with Tivo for good. There are SOOO many options out there now that are much less expensive, and many that are free per month. The one thing about Tivo that sets it apart is the fast-forward jump back 3 seconds feature. That's awesome. Worth $13 per month? hahah. No way. I have 3 kids, and $13 EVERY month is alot of money for me. 
People don't like getting nickled and dimed to death each month. This is why Tivo will ultimately fail under the current incompetent CEO.
I truly consider people who pay $13 per month to be pure, true, bridge-buying suckers in every sense of the word. For Tivo as a company to last, it must truly hope that "one's born every minute" as the saying goes.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Atomike said:


> $13 a month for guide data? You must MUST be joking. I would never ever pay that much. I have a lifetimed Tivo, and when it dies, I'm done with Tivo for good. There are SOOO many options out there now that are much less expensive, and many that are free per month. The one thing about Tivo that sets it apart is the fast-forward jump back 3 seconds feature. That's awesome. Worth $13 per month? hahah. No way. I have 3 kids, and $13 EVERY month is alot of money for me.
> People don't like getting nickled and dimed to death each month. This is why Tivo will ultimately fail under the current incompetent CEO.
> I truly consider people who pay $13 per month to be pure, true, bridge-buying suckers in every sense of the word. For Tivo as a company to last, it must truly hope that "one's born every minute" as the saying goes.


Let's see, if you get 3 dvr's from the cable company at $9 a month that's $27 a month.

Get 3 tivo's at $13, $7, and $7, that's well $27 a month.


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## SystemJinx (Aug 13, 2005)

Until someone has tried Tivo for a couple of days, then yes $12 does sound like a lot of money. I wasn't very interested in Tivo functionality at all until I purchased a Toshiba RS-TX20 with basic Tivo. When I found out what it could do and how easy it was to operate, I was hooked and paid for lifetime service.

Once you go Tivo you don't go back.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

People spend far more on products that provide far less.

About the same price for satellite radio.
About the same price for a newspaper.
At least 3X for a cellphone.
About 5X for a daily Starbucks coffee.
Ditto for the cable or satellite programming being recorded by the TiVo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Atomike said:


> $13 a month for guide data? You must MUST be joking. I would never ever pay that much. I have a lifetimed Tivo, and when it dies, I'm done with Tivo for good. There are SOOO many options out there now that are much less expensive, and many that are free per month. The one thing about Tivo that sets it apart is the fast-forward jump back 3 seconds feature. That's awesome. Worth $13 per month? hahah. No way. I have 3 kids, and $13 EVERY month is alot of money for me.
> People don't like getting nickled and dimed to death each month. This is why Tivo will ultimately fail under the current incompetent CEO.
> I truly consider people who pay $13 per month to be pure, true, bridge-buying suckers in every sense of the word. For Tivo as a company to last, it must truly hope that "one's born every minute" as the saying goes.


yes but I have a lifetime TiVo and only pay 6.95 for the other ones. 
the other options were a PC running some software - I either paid thousands to have something preconfigured that just ran or I went 500$ for hardware and then had a lot of work to do myself.
I could get a cable company DVR but I only use extended basic cable so would end up paying 35$ a month when all the digital and what not is included
I could buy a hard drive/DVD recorder for a one time 300 to 500$ fee but have no functionality I wanted as I archive very little to DVD.

or I bought a TiVo at 200$ then and 300$ for lifetime and had such high quality and great features I bought more (540 free for a year of service prepaid, RS TX20 (for DVD playback - picked it up for150$ and SD H400 for 100$) Now a DT at 100$)and happily at 6.95 a month and still not really spending much more than the other options. my whole family uses them and they have made entertainment so much on our terms with so little time spent having to troubleshoot them


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> About the same price for satellite radio.
> About the same price for a newspaper.
> At least 3X for a cellphone.
> About 5X for a daily Starbucks coffee.
> Ditto for the cable or satellite programming being recorded by the TiVo.


Satellite Radio - ripoff. ReplayAV and internet radio are a MUCH better deal. 
newspaper - okay, maybe. Mine's cheaper than $13 per month though
cellphone - I pay about $7 for my cellphone service. You're getting ripped off (again).
Starbucks - won't even dignify that one. Ripoff!!! 
Cable - I pay $17 for cable. That's shows 24/7 for original content by all the major and some minor networks. By comparison, $13 for the guide data and Tivo convenience seems like an even bigger ripoff.

Consumerism is an art. That most will never master.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

Atomike said:


> Satellite Radio - ripoff. ReplayAV and internet radio are a MUCH better deal.


But harder to get in my car



> cellphone - I pay about $7 for my cellphone service. You're getting ripped off (again).


That's what I pay, too (Virgin prepaid that I hardly ever use but need to topup to keep active). These were not necessarily examples of what *I* pay, but what others do.



> Starbucks - won't even dignify that one. Ripoff!!!


Agreed. See cellphone, above.



> Cable - I pay $17 for cable. That's shows 24/7 for original content by all the major and some minor networks.


You pay $17 for what you could get for free with an antenna? Talk about a ripoff.


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## Riverdome (May 12, 2005)

I agree $13 is expensive for what amounts to guide data and a UI. I have two lifetime Series 2 and while I long for a HD Tivo (S3) I'll be damned if I'm going to pay monthly for it.

The only way I would ever consider a non-lifetime plan would be if the savings I get from turning in my cable box and renting a cable card is equal to the monthly fee of the S3. Otherwise I equate the $13 monthly fee to renting an apartment instead of buying a house. I stopped making that mistake years ago and don't intend to start making it again.

[/rant]


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## Mavrick22 (Feb 7, 2006)

ping said:


> People spend far more on products that provide far less.
> 
> About the same price for satellite radio.


I have a Sirius Sportster with Lifetime service that has already paid for itself and is still providing me with satellite radio at no cost now.

If Tivo only still had Lifetime I think people might look at it different. Sure it was a big upfront cost but after awhile it would pay for itself.


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## jdehnert (May 3, 2002)

I'm praying that someone will come up with an OpenTivo alternative that I can install and run for free. I have 2 lifetime units, 1 Series 1 and 1 Series 2. I have too many monthly subscriptions as it is. Cable costs too much and I only watch about 5% of the channels that I get. My cell service is a rip off (not to mention that the Razr is a crappy phone). Satellite Radio? Pass, Newspaper? no time to read that unfortunately. Starbucks? I don't se how that fits in. I can make coffee if I want it, or buy, who cares. 

The DVR's my cable company provides are crappy at best and they have yet another added monthly cost. 

Personally, I'm sick of being bled like this by everyone. If I got decent reception over the air I'd dump cable in a heart beat. I go my company to pay for my phone, buy cell phones for my wife and kids I see as much as a safety issue as a convenience. 

Perhaps if Tivo charged me once for as many devices as I have in my house, I'd be OK wit that (and I'd have 3).


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## jmr50 (Dec 27, 2003)

I've never really understood the mentality of the Lifetime Subscription people, myself. I want to buy a service, and see it develop, grow, and fully exploit the devices I buy. If they get all their money up front, there is no incentive for them to add new features, since they don't make any incremental revenue. Furthermore, they have every reason to implement planned obscelence in their devices, to make me upgrade and pay again. By paying for a service every month, I obligate TiVo to continue to strive to make me happy month after month. 

That said, I find the new plans confusing. I bought a device for $300, paid $9.95 for a while, $12.95 for a while, etc. I understand that model - invest in a device, pay for the service. This is similar to the model for my wireless phone, TV service, internet access, etc. I understand people want a no-money down option - to them I'd be fine offering a lease option - $19.95 a month for at least 12 months. But, this weird hybrid ownership/service delivery thing is just confusing.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

ping said:


> That's what I pay, too (Virgin prepaid that I hardly ever use but need to topup to keep active). These were not necessarily examples of what *I* pay, but what others do.


You're paying too much (unless your "hardly" ever use is a lot more than me).

If you set up your credit card to auto-Top Up, it's only $15/3 months, so $5/month.


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## JasonRossSmith (Jul 21, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> Let's see, if you get 3 dvr's from the cable company at $9 a month that's $27 a month.
> 
> Get 3 tivo's at $13, $7, and $7, that's well $27 a month.


Awsome!!! isn't it amazing how some folks can't do math?

Regardless of the math though, it really is a personal choice. Either a product is valued or it's not.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

jmr50 said:


> I've never really understood the mentality of the Lifetime Subscription people, myself. I want to buy a service, and see it develop, grow, and fully exploit the devices I buy. If they get all their money up front, there is no incentive for them to add new features, since they don't make any incremental revenue. Furthermore, they have every reason to implement planned obscelence in their devices, to make me upgrade and pay again. By paying for a service every month, I obligate TiVo to continue to strive to make me happy month after month.


I, and many people, have Series 1 Tivos. Anybody paying monthly on a Series 1 Tivo is never going to see any software update again -- presumably. That will eventually be true for Series 2s too (I suspect the dual tuner will get software updates for much longer than the single tuner one).

I would GLADLY pay *for software updates*, and/or even for SPECIFIC features... even if it required me to get new hardware.

I love the Tivo feature set, and would love to see improvements on it. But I do think there is a certain validity to the "$13/month just for guide data???" mentality.

I'd much rather have them do AWAY with the big hardware rebates and have a much lower monthly fee (or no monthly, as with lifetime), even if the total cost over the user's lifetime of the unit were the same. Plus, in this case, Tivo gets the money sooner, which is good.


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## lasergecko (Mar 13, 2003)

So, all of you complaining about paying $13 or $7 per month for the service for your TiVo...which option would you prefer?

A) Have TiVo's profits built into the cost of the hardware. 

B) Have TiVo's project profits built into the new "Lifetime Keep TiVo Profitable Service"?

Any guesses as to how much those would cost? 


"Lifetime Service" doesn't mean jack-squat if TiVo isn't in business. Let's have TiVo give their service and their boxes away and see how long they hang around.


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## supasta (May 6, 2006)

The price is definately worth it to me. TiVo will 100% solve my issue of working long hours and seemingly every time there is a basketball or football game on. TiVo = Problem solved.

There is never anything good on when I do have time to watch TV, again TiVo = problem solved.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Atomike said:


> Satellite Radio - ripoff. ReplayAV and internet radio are a MUCH better deal.


In the home where you do have internet, sure. But on the go, satellite radio is more convenient, and often better than commercial broadcast radio.


> newspaper - okay, maybe. Mine's cheaper than $13 per month though


Same here, we have a weekly, at no nore than $1/week.
A daily might cost mre than the $13/month.


> cellphone - I pay about $7 for my cellphone service. You're getting ripped off (again).


It depends. Some poeple want the convenience of mobility, its extra features, or just need it.


> Starbucks - won't even dignify that one. Ripoff!!!


Same here. Some want to pay, to be seen with their coffee, or other reasons. Yes, if you can afford to regularily buy coffee there, you have no business complaining about TiVo's price.


> Cable - I pay $17 for cable. That's shows 24/7 for original content by all the major and some minor networks. By comparison, $13 for the guide data and Tivo convenience seems like an even bigger ripoff.


For $17 of cable channels, it might barely be worth it, but go up to $30 or 40/month, TiVo begins to make sense,as it makes that $30 or more pay more worth it.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

jmr50 said:


> I've never really understood the mentality of the Lifetime Subscription people


Me neither. They seem to think that the Lifetime pays for itself after 2 years, and after that it is a free ride, ignoring the fact that TiVo has nothing to show in their books to show for servicing that unit after 4 years.
They seem to think TiVo owes them something for buying Lifetime, or owes them to continue selling Lifetime, when they are a loss for the company.


> That said, I find the new plans confusing. I bought a device for $300, paid $9.95 for a while, $12.95 for a while, etc. I understand that model - invest in a device, pay for the service. This is similar to the model for my wireless phone, TV service, internet access, etc. I understand people want a no-money down option - to them I'd be fine offering a lease option - $19.95 a month for at least 12 months. But, this weird hybrid ownership/service delivery thing is just confusing.


I think TiVo wants to distance themselves from a "lease".

IMO, the bundle concept is pretty simple. No money down (for the base hardware), and an increased monthly fee, decreasing the longer the term, or a prepay option, which is relatively lower the longer the term.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mattack said:


> I, and many people, have Series 1 Tivos. Anybody paying monthly on a Series 1 Tivo is never going to see any software update again -- presumably.


I think it is precisely because TiVo inc was surprised by how many Series 1 lifetimes are still in use that they did away with the Lifetime option. They hoped the improvements to service would get people to stop using Series 1 and move on to Series 2. That did not happen.

If TiVo made the lifetime option more expensive then people would actually hold onto a series 2 DT even longer since they would not want to loose the lifetime.

So now they have pay monthly only and people will look at the DT as a 100$ hardware investment only and more readily drop the box in favor of whatever else is coming out - or they keep using the DT and pay monthly which of course suits TiVo just fine as well.


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## Mavrick22 (Feb 7, 2006)

Maybe Tivo should have used the same model for lifetime that Sirius Satellite Radio did for Sirius charges you $499.00 for the lifetime but allows you to transfer it to a newer model up to 3 times for a fee of $75.00 that way Tivo would still be able to make money off of the lifetime boxes from people transfering it from their Series 1 to the Series 2 and Eventually the Series 3.

That would have been $150 from those 2 transfers that Tivo will not ever see for they dont allow transfers from most lifetime boxes.

This plan in my view would beneift both partys for Tivo would still make money on lifetime boxes and the consumer would still be able to keep his lifetime service.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> So, all of you complaining about paying $13 or $7 per month for the service for your TiVo...which option would you prefer?
> 
> A) Have TiVo's profits built into the cost of the hardware.
> 
> ...


I vote for option C) Have TiVo run their business in such a manner that they don't lose money while providing very little in service. The guide data is cheap. Unless you run your business wrong. Product updates & upgrades are not very expensive either - look at GBPVR for example if you think I'm wrong. One guy. Great product. Free. If you think Tivo needs to spend tons of money on guide data and upgrades, you really need to explain in detail to this forum why GBPVR can do nearly the same thing for free. Also, while you're at it, explain how Microsoft can put out a box that has no monthly fees, and does not lose money on each box (the LG unit released last year). For that matter - explain why my cable company makes a profit with a $5 per month DVR. Go ahead. Show us how smart you are. I'd love to hear why the GBPVR is SOOOO much different than Tivo.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Mavrick22 said:


> Maybe Tivo should have used the same model for lifetime that Sirius Satellite Radio did for Sirius charges you $499.00 for the lifetime but allows you to transfer it to a newer model up to 3 times for a fee of $75.00 that way Tivo would still be able to make money off of the lifetime boxes from people transfering it from their Series 1 to the Series 2 and Eventually the Series 3.
> 
> That would have been $150 from those 2 transfers that Tivo will not ever see for they dont allow transfers from most lifetime boxes.
> 
> This plan in my view would beneift both partys for Tivo would still make money on lifetime boxes and the consumer would still be able to keep his lifetime service.


*YEP!*

Sirius appears to be extending this offer month by month right now. Earlier they had the same offer which expired at the end of June.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think it is precisely because TiVo inc was surprised by how many Series 1 lifetimes are still in use that they did away with the Lifetime option. They hoped the improvements to service would get people to stop using Series 1 and move on to Series 2. That did not happen.
> 
> If TiVo made the lifetime option more expensive then people would actually hold onto a series 2 DT even longer since they would not want to loose the lifetime.
> 
> So now they have pay monthly only and people will look at the DT as a 100$ hardware investment only and more readily drop the box in favor of whatever else is coming out - or they keep using the DT and pay monthly which of course suits TiVo just fine as well.


Some people just won't rent a DVR at all unless it is offered at a bargain price as an incentive from a program provider.

Some people don't believe in buying every current hot gadget which ends up in next year's junk.

It's apparent from people holding onto fully paid for Series 1 TiVo's despite the lack of new features is that some people don't value TiVo's latest "sizzle" as much as they do more basic DVR features. I'd much rather have a free Series 1 than rent a Series 2.

I will never aquire another TiVo if its service must be rented. I overpaid for a TiVo Lifetime Gift Card for which I'd gladly have paid TiVo $500-$600.

My Lifetime card is good for a year and a half. Before using it I'm going to make sure that Series 3 does what I want and is available for a price I want to pay. If not, that expensive Lifetime Gift Card is going to find another owner.

(Using 20-20 hindsight I focused on winning one eBay listing for less than a predetermined amount instead of taking the longer view and sniping every eBay listing until I won at a lower predetermined amount. The latter strategy appears to be the somewhat successful strategy employed by dieharddukefan. Of course DHDF buys as many as he can to resell whereas I only wanted one card.)

Lately LG's o/o/production *LST-3410A HDTV Digital Video Recorder/Receiver* DVR, has been selling for $500-$700 on eBay, and *Motorola DCT 6412* DVR's in various S/W versions have been going for more than $300. The Moto box is at least dual-tuner, but won't work in many applications. Both hi-def DVR's have relatively small 120GB HD's and fewer features than Series 3.


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## Killerz298 (Feb 9, 2004)

Can someone clear something legal up for me? AFAIK the only reason some people stick with Tivo and not switch to another homebrew method with no sub costs is because of the features offered (mainly season pass feature) which aren't avil with others due to legal reasons. Isn't MythTV or other alternatives open source and free? What I am getting at is why don't the free versions incorporate the features of the Tivo into their programs?

I understand Tivo has a patent on some features such as season pass but I don't understand the restrictions a patent grants. I was under the impression that someone else couldn't use their patented features (whether copied their code or wrote their own to mimic it) for *commercial * purposes? If the software is OSS and free, would they be allowed to use these features or does a patent prevent ANY use for ANY reason? Even if ANY use was prevented by US laws, what is stopping the OSS people from making the program in a foreign country which doesn't have to respect US laws?

I sure as hell know that (if I weren't using a lifetimed S2 and was instead on a pay by month basis) if there was an OSS box that I could build myself and have complete control over what I could do with it, with no DRM and no fees, while having the features (mainly season pass) that Tivo offers I would ditch Tivo in a second! I am just hoping this alternative becomes avail by the time I want to go HD and move off the S2.

UPDATE: Well I did some googling and it seems that in most European countries patent infringment only applies to COMMERCIAL use of the patent. But of course in the good ol USA commercial and noncommercial use is prohibited. However, I still don't see what prevents an OSS effort from being launched/hosted overseas out of the reach of US prosecution.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think it is precisely because TiVo inc was surprised by how many Series 1 lifetimes are still in use that they did away with the Lifetime option. They hoped the improvements to service would get people to stop using Series 1 and move on to Series 2. That did not happen.
> 
> If TiVo made the lifetime option more expensive then people would actually hold onto a series 2 DT even longer since they would not want to loose the lifetime.
> 
> So now they have pay monthly only and people will look at the DT as a 100$ hardware investment only and more readily drop the box in favor of whatever else is coming out - or they keep using the DT and pay monthly which of course suits TiVo just fine as well.


I sold my series 1 for $320 on E-Bay last year (paid only $199 for the lifetime at the time that I bought the S1) and got a series 2 with lifetime for $360 (when lifetime was still being sold by TiVo). A good deal for $40 plus the cost of a larger drive. The S 1 was 4 years old and so were the drives in it. With E-Bay there is (was) no reason to hold onto old TiVo hardware. Now with lifetime no longer available at $299 I will be holding onto my TiVos as long as I can. (for the one HD TV I use a Moto 3412 DVR with DT as I know the cable co will never make that DVR obsolete without giving my another for free. (I pay $9.95/month for the DVR with a forever on-sight warranty)


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## narnia777 (Jan 12, 2003)

MythTV doesn't work with Satelite or cable boxes only with coax tv tuners. Most of us have boxes for more digital channels.

Jim


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

My issue is the one year committment even if I buy a box used. That is scummier than wireless carriers. At least if I bought a phone on eBay, I'm not locked into a contract if I sign up with them.


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

Mavrick22 said:


> Maybe Tivo should have used the same model for lifetime that Sirius Satellite Radio did for Sirius charges you $499.00 for the lifetime but allows you to transfer it to a newer model up to 3 times for a fee of $75.00 that way Tivo would still be able to make money off of the lifetime boxes from people transfering it from their Series 1 to the Series 2 and Eventually the Series 3.
> 
> That would have been $150 from those 2 transfers that Tivo will not ever see for they dont allow transfers from most lifetime boxes.
> 
> This plan in my view would beneift both partys for Tivo would still make money on lifetime boxes and the consumer would still be able to keep his lifetime service.


TiVo, should let us transfer current lifetimes, however it would cost $299 again to move it to a new box. This would help to get the people who would only get a new TiVo with Lifetime, any box before the DT TiVo could only be subed. I don't see how this would hurt TiVo, since they are stuck with no cash flow with the old box.

Maybe this should be limited to Series 1.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Leon WIlkinson said:


> TiVo, should let us transfer current lifetimes, however it would cost $299 again to move it to a new box. This would help to get the people who would only get a new TiVo with Lifetime, any box before the DT TiVo could only be subed. I don't see how this would hurt TiVo, since they are stuck with no cash flow with the old box.
> 
> Maybe this should be limited to Series 1.


With the transfer of Classic Lifetime, with a redefinition of New Lifetime as 4 years.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MikeMar said:


> Let's see, if you get 3 dvr's from the cable company at $9 a month that's $27 a month.
> 
> Get 3 tivo's at $13, $7, and $7, that's well $27 a month.


Don't forget that in most instances you also have to subscribe to Digital Cable, another 10.00/month in our area.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

Killerz298 said:


> sn't MythTV or other alternatives open source and free? What I am getting at is why don't the free versions incorporate the features of the Tivo into their programs?


They are free and so is the program guide but only because zap2it currently allows it, I think if it gets too popular they will try and stop it.



narnia777 said:


> MythTV doesn't work with Satelite or cable boxes only with coax tv tuners. Most of us have boxes for more digital channels.
> Jim


You can use IR blasters or serial control, I have not needed to do it myself though



ping said:


> People spend far more on products that provide far less.
> 
> About the same price for satellite radio.
> About the same price for a newspaper.
> ...


All of those things require far more infranstructure investment than Tivo needed. (aside from starbucks)


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

kb7oeb said:


> All of those things require far more infranstructure investment than Tivo needed. (aside from starbucks)


So what? You say that as if the price of something depends on the cost of it.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

Then why bring it up at all?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think it is precisely because TiVo inc was surprised by how many Series 1 lifetimes are still in use that they did away with the Lifetime option. They hoped the improvements to service would get people to stop using Series 1 and move on to Series 2. That did not happen.


I probably should have taken advantage of the one-time transfer of lifetime that they gave.. but at the time, the features weren't significantly different IIRC, and I may be remembering incorrectly, but I think that the hardware was full MSRP. So it *seemed* like a bad deal at the time.

I'd buy a series 2 DT at full MSRP with no $150 rebate, if I could transfer lifetime service to it -- even for a reasonable fee.

As I've said in other threads, over a significantly long time, I'd pay just as much in total money, and I'd rather pay it in a lump sum at the beginning than over time.. (and I realize that effectively makes it LESS cost effective to me). I want to know what I'm paying.

Though as I also said, the multi-service discount price is starting to sound attractive, especially if there is an even better rebate for hardware.. I'd effectively be paying for the multi-service price rather than my phone line (I have an upstairs phone that nowadays is used only for my series 1 tivos).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Killerz298 said:


> Can someone clear something legal up for me? AFAIK the only reason some people stick with Tivo and not switch to another homebrew method with no sub costs is because of the features offered (mainly season pass feature)....


Features aren't just software features. There's also the simple reliability aspect. I have a non-Tivo hard drive/DVD recorder that I got because it does offer me features that Tivos don't offer.. But it *doesn't* offer the same simplicity and reliability (pull the plug at any point and it's fine) that a Tivo does.

I'd say that *any* off-the-shelf-PC-based solution has similar issues. Even though a Tivo is really a computer, the standalone-ness of it makes it a more closed system. (That should be true of the non-Tivo PVRs too, but for some reason it hasn't been.)


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

mattack said:


> I probably should have taken advantage of the one-time transfer of lifetime that they gave.. but at the time, the features weren't significantly different IIRC, and I may be remembering incorrectly, but I think that the hardware was full MSRP. So it *seemed* like a bad deal at the time.


Well, there was a special one year ago this very month (TiVo jogged my memory by sending me an anniversary e-mail) of a refurb 40 hr. for free with the users choice of $199 for one year or $299 for Lifetime. I opted for the latter.

But, yeah, I turned down that original offer when it was made as well, mostly because the SA isn't my primary TiVo and I didn't have broadband at that time. I hold onto the SA mostly as a backup if I ever go back to cable. I've only got 4 or 5 SPs on it, but I do sub to the C|net downloads.

I'm waiting for TiVo to set its position on the particulars of the S3 as far as price and if adding it to my current setup will qualify for multiple unit discount. I'd also like to see if TiVo is going to start offering content.

I saw a column from 2004 by Mark Cuban that intrigued me regarding prospective content providers taking HD content (uncompressed) and transferring that to a hard drive and charging a rental fee. The consumer would hook it up to a computer or similar device for viewing, say like 8 HD films or 16 HD TV series eps, and when they're done they'd return that HdD and receive another pre-ordered HdD. I thought it made sense rather than throttling bandwidth, you'd have full quality HD on media that could be copied over. When I heard about it, I thought it was a viable option for TiVo.


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## alansplace (Apr 30, 2006)

bidger said:


> there was a special one year ago this very month (TiVo jogged my memory by sending me an anniversary e-mail) of a refurb 40 hr. for free with the users choice of $199 for one year or $299 for Lifetime. I opted for the latter..


yep, so did i. that was my second tivo box. no regrets... 
--
Alan


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## PAP (Oct 6, 1999)

I despise monthy fees. Makes my life complicated. I like pay once cry once. I bought lifetime on my DirecTivos and would buy lifetime again if possible.

I think "RentaVision" is the spawn of Satan, but obviously lots of folks see low monthly payments as the end all of financial decisionmaking....


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Pre-pay for 1-, 2-, or 3-years. That's not hard to deal with.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

PAP said:


> I bought lifetime on my DirecTivos and would buy lifetime again if possible.


  Why would you need to when the Lifetime on the D-TiVo stays on your account? I know because I upgraded to the HD-TiVo and a SD S2 D-TiVo and there's no new DVR fee on my account.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

PAP said:


> I despise monthy fees. Makes my life complicated. I like pay once cry once.


I am not trying to be mean or sarcastic here, but I hear this statement so often assosicated with Lifetime but I just can not understand it. We have monthly fees all over the place. Every month, I pay the following items:

Mortgage
Car Payment x 2
Cell Phone Bill
Cable Bill
Credit Card Bill (multiple)
Electric Bill
Natural Gas Bill
Auto Fuel Bill (maybe)

That does NOT even count the various bills that are automatically billed either to my credit card or my checking account (like Tivo).

I fully understand the benefits of Lifetime when spread out over many years, but I just don't understand when people say that don't like paying monthly fees.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

RBlount said:


> I fully understand the benefits of Lifetime when spread out over many years, but I just don't understand when people say that don't like paying monthly fees.


So are you saying you *LIKE* paying for the things you listed? (The mortgage is at least giving you equity, and you might be able to make more money on the money you have than the interest you're paying (--says someone who should've bought a house ~15 years ago))

Even with a cell phone, I essentially pay ~5 monthly, but it's a prepaid phone, so I'm still paying way less than most people with cell phones. If I could pay even more in a lump sum and pay less frequently/less overall, I'd do it.


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

ping said:


> People spend far more on products that provide far less.
> 
> About the same price for satellite radio.
> 
> Ditto for the cable or satellite programming being recorded by the TiVo.


Very weak argument(s) on those two... 
Satellite Radio I would not be without it in my car (NFL,News, Music etc). 
cable or satellite programming get rid of it and what are you going to Tivo????


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

RBlount said:


> I am not trying to be mean or sarcastic here, but I hear this statement so often assosicated with Lifetime but I just can not understand it. We have monthly fees all over the place. Every month, I pay the following items:
> 
> Mortgage
> Car Payment x 2
> ...


You gave up man. I have no car payment, no credit card payment, no cell phone payment. Just the house and utility stuff. I do not consider tivo a utility. I do have a RCA from D*TV and a MCEPC for Hi Def.

FPU all the way (Dave Ramsey Financial Peace Univirsety)


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

PAP said:


> I despise monthy fees. Makes my life complicated. I like pay once cry once. I bought lifetime on my DirecTivos and would buy lifetime again if possible.
> 
> I think "RentaVision" is the spawn of Satan, but obviously lots of folks see low monthly payments as the end all of financial decisionmaking....


 :up: +1


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

RBlount said:


> I am not trying to be mean or sarcastic here, but I hear this statement so often assosicated with Lifetime but I just can not understand it. We have monthly fees all over the place. Every month, I pay the following items:
> 
> Mortgage
> Car Payment x 2
> ...


To me your list exemplifies exactly why many people don't want another monthly fee. (My list contains only four of your items, BTW.)

Lifetime's percentage of service sales will drop as the price increases. At a certain point Lifetime sales will drop to close to zero. A savvy marketing department will ascertain a price for Lifetime that will add to the total revenue flow instead of short-circuiting revenue from monthly fees. If Lifetime Service is offered as a repeating limited time option its price can even be adjusted "on the fly".

Sirius Satellite Radio has just extended their *option* of expensive but flexible lifetime service into next year. TiVo would do well to reconsider its own options.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> To me your list exemplifies exactly why many people don't want another monthly fee. (My list contains only four of your items, BTW.)
> 
> Lifetime's percentage of service sales will drop as the price increases. At a certain point Lifetime sales will drop to close to zero. A savvy marketing department will ascertain a price for Lifetime that will add to the total revenue flow instead of short-circuiting revenue from monthly fees. If Lifetime Service is offered as a repeating limited time option its price can even be adjusted "on the fly".
> 
> Sirius Satellite Radio has just extended their *option* of expensive but flexible lifetime service into next year. TiVo would do well to reconsider its own options.


 It looks like they're doing the same thing TiVo did when TiVo first came out... offer Lifetime to gain new subscribers, but like TiVo's Lifetime, the Sirius looks to be ending their Lifetime option as well, after the first of the year, and after only 5 years of being in service... at least TiVo's Lifetime option was still available after 7 years...

This Lifetime option may help Sirius to be in business for a few more years, but then after that, they need to be able to be profitable from their monthly subs in order to stay in business...

The Lifetime option may help a company's short term survival, but it isn't effective in sustaining a company long term, as that company begins to have to continue to service those aging Lifetime boxes...

If Lifetime options were profitable, we'd be seeing more companies and services offering them... but they just aren't... short term, for new businesses, maybe, but not long term...


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Sirius has been running a rolling extention of lifetime service ever since it became an option. The previous offer, before the past couple of weeks, was supposed to end on 7-31-06.

Sirius has a solution for your "aging" argument, BTW. But the overall profitability of lifetime service is really just a numbers game about which we disagree. 

IMHO, Sirius's lifetime option is a win-win, both for customers and for Sirius's overall quest for profitability. And TiVo is on that same quest.


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> Sirius has been running a rolling extention of lifetime service ever since it became an option. The previous offer, before the past couple of weeks, was supposed to end on 7-31-06.
> 
> Sirius has a solution for your "aging" argument, BTW. But the overall profitability of lifetime service is really just a numbers game about which we disagree. IMHO, Sirius's lifetime option is a win-win, both for customers and for Sirius's overall profitability.


 Okay, I'll bite... what is Sirius' solution for the aging argument... force people to give up their aging boxes and start paying again... 

If the Lifetime option was a profitable option for long-term survival, more companies would be doing it... if something is profitable, companies pick up on it, plain and simple...

It's a good option for consumers, but not the company... except for the company still trying to get its foot in people's doors...


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

mchips said:


> What is Sirius' solution for the aging argument... force people to give up their aging boxes and start paying again...


Nothing is forced.

"...you can transfer your lifetime subscription to a different SIRIUS Receiver when you upgrade or replace your radio  up to three times  for only $75 per radio."


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> Nothing is forced.
> 
> "...you can transfer your lifetime subscription to a different SIRIUS Receiver when you upgrade or replace your radio  up to three times  for only $75 per radio."


 That's not a solution, but actually contributes even more to the problem... it just causes that Lifetime subscription to last through four boxes (the original one plus three more), meaning a couple/three decades from now, if they're still in business, they're going to be providing service for a lot of people who are no longer contributing to the company financially; $75 a decade does not go far (there are people with Lifetime TiVo boxes that are 7 years old now, and will probably still be in use at 10 years)... that's where it loses its long-term profitability...

That 3-time transfer is just a gimmick to get people to pay that Lifetime option now, for their immediate short-term survival, and they probably feel they will just deal with their long-term profitability later...

<edit>
Although, their Lifetime option is $200 more than TiVo's was, so it appears they figured that $299 wasn't going to be profitable for them either, even short-term...


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

mchips said:


> If the Lifetime option was a profitable option for long-term survival, more companies would be doing it... if something is profitable, companies pick up on it, plain and simple...
> 
> It's a good option for consumers, but not the company... except for the company still trying to get its foot in people's doors...


TiVo is still "trying to get its foot in people's doors". But, overall, your POV may prevail because it's in companies' long term interests to get people to accept another monthly bill.

Otherwise the only option is to forgo that product. And if there's no competition...?

TiVo ended Lifetime Service because ReplayTV was no longer in the running as viable competition. Now, there isn't much standalone competition (from non-program providers) for TiVo.

In similiar fashion Sirius is probably offering lifetime service to attract subs from a largely yet untapped satellite radio audience. *XM Radio* doesn't offer lifetime.

In a peculiar way Humax TiVo is actually competition for TiVo. (Does anyone know when Humax's TiVo contract ends?)

*LG's LRM-519* w/free service and a relatively high list price (usually discounted) is competitive, but one DVR isn't major competition.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

mchips said:


> <edit>
> Although, their Lifetime option is $200 more than TiVo's was, so it appears they figured that $299 wasn't going to be profitable for them either, even short-term...


We disagree, and it's probably best to drop it.

At some price point Lifetime Service would return as much profitability as any other method of charging for service. If offered at $1000. Lifetime Service would have few/no sales, but IT WOULD BE AN OPTION which people would be free to choose.

The argument we're having reminds me of the never-ending argument among eBayer's about whether "sniping" lowers or raises the ultimate prices at which items sell for. It's a non-issue. "Sniping" is good for buyers because it gives them more control and keeps competitive bids, because of human nature, from rising to unrealistic levels. It's also good for sellers because fixed length listings garner more interest and bidders at the eBay site than an extended interval auction-site would get.

With that thought I close. You can now "snipe" the last post in this exchange!


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## mchips (Feb 21, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> TiVo ended Lifetime Service because ReplayTV was no longer in the running as viable competition. Now, there isn't much standalone competition (from non-program providers) for TiVo.


 That's one way to look at it, but here's another...

First, ReplayTV hasn't been competition for TiVo for a while now, and TiVo still continued the Lifetime option... but I agree that if your real competition isn't offering a Lifetime option, you don't need to either... which falls back to my point, that if it was profitable, they'd still have continued it, regardless if ReplayTV was competition or not...

Second, providing dual-tuner units at the same single-tuner service fee cuts into any potential profits, with people only buying one unit, who would have bought two, or people replacing two single-tuner units with one dual-tuner unit... so, I don't see it as any coincidence that the Lifetime option was discontinued just before offering the dual-tuner units, more so than ReplayTV being a factor, plus the fact that TiVo was still operating in the red.

I don't disagree that the Lifetime option is great for the consumer, which is why those who want it, are not going to accept that it isn't a great deal for the company as well... if it was/is, then more companies would offer it... so, yes, we're going to have to agree to disagree on that...

I wish I could get a Lifetime option for my phone, electric, cable, Internet, gas, water, trash, Netflix, etc., items that I have to pay for as well... but I understand that companies are in business to make money... If TiVo made the kind of profits that Microsoft has made, then I'd be more inclined to lean in your direction, but they're not...

The competition that's hurting TiVo now, is from cable companies, that don't really need to be competing with them in the first place... usually, competition yields better options, but in this case it's just yielding inferior products, and since it's a box offered by the cable company, many people don't even realize what they're missing... hopefully, the Comcast deal will help to change that...

In reference to TiVo still needing to get their foot in more doors, that's true... that's why the new pricing options have been created to help more people get a TiVo with no upfront hardware costs that couldn't afford it before... the Lifetime option only got them so many... for people who couldn't even afford the box, the Lifetime option meant little to them...

I don't disagree with people wanting it, and I can fully understand it... I just can't agree that's it's as good of a deal for the company as it is for the consumer... if it were, the Lifetime option would be more commonplace...

For people who don't want to pay monthly, which is yours and other people's argument for having a Lifetime option, TiVo offers up to a 3-year prepay plan, and for a limited time, people can now get the 3-year plan at the 2-year price (so, depending on how someone chooses to look at it, they either get 1-year free or get 3-years at a reduced rate). And before someone else says it, I agree that the prepay options would be better if they allowed for the MSD rate as well, because it's not a viable option for someone who already has at least one Lifetime box, or for people with multiple boxes... except for people who aren't concerned with the price, since you said people would be willing to pay $1,000 for the Lifetime option just so that they won't have monthly payments to make... With these 3-year prepay options, they can now get 6 years for less than that, and only have to commit to 3 years at a time, thereby not having to come up with a $1,000 now... and why wouldn't that be acceptable... the Lifetime option was never meant to be for the lifetime of the individual...



TiVo Troll said:


> With that thought I close. You can now "snipe" the last post in this exchange!


 (since you got the first word, and then just took two more, I thought I'd take you up on getting one more word in myself, albeit long; this topic has already been debated to death, so there's probably not much new either of us can add to the discussion, so I agree that it's probably best to just agree to disagree)


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## SeattleBrad (Jul 19, 2002)

Tivo is like upgrading your cable from a Kia to a BMW for $13 a month.


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