# Closed captions



## jpjgolden (Apr 17, 2014)

I have a general information question about _Closed Captions_. I'm not sure what the FCC mandate is regarding CC, but I have notice some programs do a better job than others.

I've used _CC_ for 25-years and have become somewhat dependent on them. They seem to work smoothly on new programming from the major networks, but often fail miserably when added to older movies. TCM does a very good job with theirs and that made me wonder how they achieved it. Is it all software-based? And if so, do other films simply use software that's inherently crappy?

Can anyone answer these, and other, questions?

*JP*


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

Captions are traditionally done by a human typist, in some cases using a stenography keyboard and other cases using a normal keyboard.

I haven't heard about automated captions on TV, but I heard some of youtube's are automatically done by software. (which might demonstrate why we don't use the technique for TV yet)

I have noticed that captions have been getting better which I chalked up to better software to make the task more accurate and a thriving DVD and OTT market. Just speculation however.

TCM maybe doing a higher quality job than other networks because they own the content. Most broadcasters are dependent on whatever source material they receive, and are going to limit their effort fixing it because they have limited showings. Creating good captions is an investment, but the advantage goes to the content owner.

One thing I found surprising is it's not uncommon to have different versions for the same content. A movie when in theaters might have 1 set of captions, HBO/TV another, DVD/OTT another.


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## jpjgolden (Apr 17, 2014)

Thanks, *telemark*, you've confirmed what I thought. And, yes, I can understand how *TCM* would enter the dialogue manually, being the class act they are. The TV stations I suspect use software are small operators, usually showing only reruns of programs that ran 50-years ago, in some cases. The _CC_ on those programs is really third-rate with misspellings, misunderstood words and phrases, etc.

And that begs the question, _What software are they using? _The industry leader, I believe, is _Dragon_, and all the reviews I've seen talk of its sterling qualities. That said, maybe _Dragon_ is too expensive for the small stations and they choose a competitor with a track record not even close to _Dragon_.

*JP*


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Everyone enters the captions manually. Some (most) are just bad at it.* The software telemark referred to is not voice recognition software.

There are many ways to do captions. Some are of course done live, because they have to be. Captioners in these situations often type shortcuts, which are expanded by the software. Other captions appear to be done live, or at least in the same style, even when the program is pre-recorded. Better captions can have nice formatting, etc., and are often done from the script. But in other cases, even with time to do nice formatting, the captions are all done by ear -- and the captioner's hearing can be pretty off. (The worst scenario: the _only_ part of the program that you need captions for, is the part that gets captioned as something like "[indistinct]". That happens to me all the time.) And sometimes, the captions are just paraphrased, either because it's less to type, or perhaps because it's thought that the accurate captions would take too long to read.

All in all, kind of a travesty.

* Though, to be fair, live captioning must be incredibly hard.


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## eboydog (Mar 24, 2006)

I noticed CC's aren't always correct, I was watching the Walking Dead awhile back and had turned captions on to catch exactly what the characters were saying, I noticed that the captions in certain dialog omitted a few curse words! In fact in this drama dialogue actually put the whole scene in a different interpretation.

I suppose whoever omitted the curse language was offended and decided not to include it?


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## slice1900 (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm sorry, but there's NO WAY some captions aren't done by voice recognition software. Just watch some of the movies on "This" (usually found on one of your local subchannels)

There is simply no way a human operator entered the crazy stuff I see sometimes, even a non-English speaking person couldn't have entered it - they wouldn't know some of the words it comes up with. I wish there was an easy way for me to capture 10-15 second snippets, I could post some whoppers! A drunk 11 year old who was held back in 4th grade would do a much better captioning job than a lot of the movies on This.

Anyone who says there is no speech recognition involved anywhere in captioning obviously doesn't watch much with captions enabled, or only watches movies on a network with better resources.

Another problem is when movies are sped up a bit to fit into time constraints. You see this often on movies on BET. The captions become garbage, because the frames they cut out apparently contain some captioning info and the software doing the speed up doesn't adjust for it. The captions tend to be useless for BET, VH1, sometimes on USA. Never a problem on say FX or TNT.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

The only captions I knew were done completely automatically are on YouTube.
I'll check out "This" though, I haven't tuned in enough to comment.

I agree the short story of it all, is some broadcasters/content creators spend more effort getting it just right or do the bare minimum (FCC rules). And I feel a lot of that has to do with when the captions were created. It's an art and the techniques and care has improved over time.

If you're talking about when captions get completely wacky, there's 2 things I noticed, one is when the signal strength goes out, the CC gets garbled and can get some wrong characters in there. The other, is when they're using a stenography keyboard and choose the wrong word. It's kinda like predictive text on cell phones these days. They "type" something and have to choose the word that was meant. Choosing something wrong ends up with nonsense. And if it's going live, they don't have time to go back to fix it.

Sometimes I'll watch live events to see whether they can keep up, and once I saw someone bang on the keyboard and what shows up is not a bunch of letters, but psuedo word fragments.

This article provides a perspective on the process:
http://main.wgbh.org/wgbh/pages/mag/services/captioning/faq/caption-faq-proc.html

I assume the normal (non-PBS) networks just regurgitates whatever the national feed feeds them. So only the local stuff would be different.

The other thing I was trying to say is it's not as simple as digitizing the script from the movie. When a movie is in production the script is constantly rewritten daily, and sometimes the actors are told to be spontaneous. After that, things get reordered in post production, and sometimes dubbed over.

By the time it gets to broadcast/DVD, the broadcaster/publisher may have jumbled scripts, or nothing at all. I assume that's gotten better because DVD sales have created a market, and they want to get all the extra stuff right. But older stuff it's long gone.

Probably can't use this if you mainly watch live content, but I find interesting the user submitted movement for translations. Like http://www.opensubtitles.org/


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## jpjgolden (Apr 17, 2014)

Thank you all very much. I learned everything I wanted to know (and more) with your help. I will be sure to tap your brain trust again when I get ready to purchase a Tivo.

*JP*


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

eboydog said:


> I noticed CC's aren't always correct, I was watching the Walking Dead awhile back and had turned captions on to catch exactly what the characters were saying,* I noticed that the captions in certain dialog omitted a few curse words!* In fact in this drama dialogue actually put the whole scene in a different interpretation.
> 
> I suppose whoever omitted the curse language was offended and decided not to include it?


I had a battle with AMC a few years ago over this. I can't remember if it was Mad Men or Walking Dead or another show, but the audio had the words spoken (eg, DAMN), and the captions had ****. I wrote AMC, rec'd no reply. Tried again, no reply. Filed an FCC complaint. FCC accepted it, gave me a case #. AMC finally replied, with some BS about a third-party captioner, and meeting the rules, and all sorts of other rambling nonsense. Sorry, but it's been so long, I don't remember the exact retorts by AMC. I wrote back, disputing all their claims, copying the FCC. I even tried the ADA tactic, that AMC was depriving me of equal rights due to a handicap. A few months later, I rec'd a letter from the FCC, telling me the case was resolved. Huh?

I decided I had spent enough time on this, and dropped it myself. To this day, I still see curse words **** on AMC. They are the only channel that does this to my knowledge. :down::down:


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

I don't want to defend that, because I don't approve of the practice, but I can come up with a plausible situation which might be going on.

If that content ever was / will go on broadcast, it would be censored. (with bleeps for the audio).

Whenever they made the captions, they might not know if it's ultimately going to be broadcast or cable and if they only ever go through the process once, they would use the stricter standard.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

I saw at the end of a show during the credits it had one for captions by this company. And this is from their FAQ:

http://captionmax.com/faq-viewer/#missing-wrong-letters

Why are there missing or totally wrong letters in the captions?
We're sorry that you have had to deal with captions of poor quality. Yes, we do spellcheck! Our caption files are fully proofed before they are sent to the networks. Unfortunately, in broadcasting the satellite feed from the network or the cable provider, captions can be affected. This can result in the missing sections, mistimed captions, or meaningless strings of letters you are experiencing.

For live programs such as news shows or sporting events, captioning is done by a trained court reporter. Of course, since they are captioning live, there is no time for them to correct mistakes or they would miss part of the program.
Often your broadcaster is unaware that anything is wrong. You can help them resolve the issue by giving them specific information, including the show's air-date and time, whether you were watching over cable, satellite, or off-air, what city and time zone you are viewing the show, and the exact nature of the problem.

If you've tried everything else, you can file a complaint with the FCC.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

astrohip said:


> I decided I had spent enough time on this, and dropped it myself. To this day, I still see curse words **** on AMC. They are the only channel that does this to my knowledge. :down::down:


I know USA does this, and I think FX, on some sitcoms. Usually the word is "s h eye t" which gets replaced with s---. TCF software replaced the actual word with four asterisks hence my modification. Recent shows that come to mind are Sirens and I think perhaps Anger Management, and/or Legit. The actual words comes through fine on audio but the CC is censored.

I can buy the explanation that it is done this way so it can be perhaps put on broadcast tv, or maybe aired in a timeslot that is more restrictive of what can broadcast.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

The other possibility is the show is going to be transmitted in other countries, and many TV/Film/Videogame boards will censor the content. It's easy mute audio or cut scenes and it's also as easy to forget about the closed captioning track because you need a CC decoder to see it. You often see it on TV commercials as well when captioning pops up and it's wrong because the scenes were cribbed and the CC data was inadvertently preserved.


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## bobfrank (Mar 17, 2005)

justen_m said:


> I know USA does this, and I think FX, on some sitcoms. Usually the word is "s h eye t" which gets replaced with s---. TCF software replaced the actual word with four asterisks hence my modification. Recent shows that come to mind are Sirens and I think perhaps Anger Management, and/or Legit. The actual words comes through fine on audio but the CC is censored.
> 
> I can buy the explanation that it is done this way so it can be perhaps put on broadcast tv, or maybe aired in a timeslot that is more restrictive of what can broadcast.


I have also seen shows where the cuss words were bleeped in the audio but the CC showed them out in all their glory.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

justen_m said:


> I know USA does this, and I think FX, on some sitcoms. Usually the word is "s h eye t" which gets replaced with s---. TCF software replaced the actual word with four asterisks hence my modification. Recent shows that come to mind are Sirens and I think perhaps Anger Management, and/or Legit. The actual words comes through fine on audio but the CC is censored.


Yes, Sirens does it too.


bobfrank said:


> I have also seen shows where the cuss words were bleeped in the audio but the CC showed them out in all their glory.


I always got a cheap thrill when I could see (hear in my mind) the word, but the audio was bleeped.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

bobfrank said:


> I have also seen shows where the cuss words were bleeped in the audio but the CC showed them out in all their glory.


I've seen it both ways as well, with obscenities.

I've also seen whole lines of dialog in the captions, that were not spoken on the program. Sometimes, I like having an "alternate" scene dialog, when this happens. I mean, sometimes it is obvious that a line was going to be in the script, but was taken out, while staying in the captions (since sometimes nobody's lips are moving and nothing is said, but the captions clearly put a line there).

I've also become dependant on captions. I can't understand some dialects and accents, no matter how loud I turn up the volume. Sometimes I'd get what was said wrong (even completely backwards), without the CC, even when it sounded so clear to be one thing, yet a replay back proves the captions right, and my ear-brain link wrong. I'm also one who gets song lyrics wrong, or don't know what they are at all, without looking up the lyrics...

Unfortunately, the captions are often corrupted or missing by the time they get to my screen. I never got anywhere complaining about it, since I'm not actually deaf.

Sometimes TiVo and/or retransmission glitches that kill the audio, but not the video (audio drop-outs), are made tolerable with CC on. It was TiVo-caused issues that got me started using CC in the first place. Now I feel lost without them, sometimes.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

I saw another caption provider in the credits, ncicap, and their blog linked to a recent FCC order on caption quality:
http://www.ncicap.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/FCC-14-12A1.pdf

Very well written. I can't tell but maybe we're in the comment period.


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## Nelson2009 (Mar 21, 2009)

Have question i hope Tivo developer read this I didn't want to add new thread. I have owned 2 TiVo Model TiVo HD (series 3) and TiVo Premiere. when I converted .Tivo file to Mpeg and transfer them back 2 both my TiVos TiVo HD can play CC just fine why can't premiere do the same??? They must omitted 1 line in code that Premiere unable to read mpeg in captioning. I mean it shouldn't be difficult to add it and I'm sure a lot of people out there reliable on CC and make them happy. I betting Romanio does the same thing as Premiere. That one reason why I keep Tivo HD.


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## alexofindy (Apr 16, 2010)

Nelson2009,

Probably you're running into the well known problem I have myself encountered. I archive non-copy-protected shows from my Tivo onto a Readynas file server, to make more room on my Tivo hard drive. And when I transfer them back, the captions are gone.

The issue has to do with the container file. The Tivo transfers the video files in container files that end in "ps," which stands for "program stream". The .ps files have captions, and I can play them with appropriate software on my computer, with the captions intact (as an aside, the files are encrypted by the Tivo, but there are ways to decrypt them using either tivodecode or the old, no longer available from tivo but not hard to find, free version of Tivo Desktop).

Problem is due to the bug you describe, the Tivo Premiere cannot display captions in .ps formatted files.

The solution, and it is a pain in the you-know-where, is to remux the video files to .ts format while they are on the computer, and before I transfer them back. .ts stands for transport stream.

I use an inexpensive (but not free) program called videoredo; this program isn't expensive, and does the job quickly. It comes with one "feature" that is worth the program's price - excellent tech support. There are free programs that should translate .ps files to .ts files, but I couldn't get them to work, so I just bought videoredo. Highly recommended.

I don't know the law on this subject, but I would bet Tivo is obligated to fix the bug, closed captions are pretty much a legal right for people who need them..

HOpefully, someday someone at Tivo will repair the bug.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

alexofindy said:


> I don't know the law on this subject, but I would bet Tivo is obligated to fix the bug, closed captions are pretty much a legal right for people who need them.


I'm a 100% caption user, and advocate for their proper usage every chance I get.

Having said that... this is really a one-off situation. They WERE captioned at one point. I'm not sure there is a legal obligation to make sure the captions remain with them thru every stage of various electronic transfers.

If the transfers were something necessary for people to watch the program in the first place, one could argue they are required. But these are totally optional electronic manipulations, and probably not covered by any regulations.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

alexofindy said:


> The Tivo transfers the video files in container files that end in "ps," which stands for "program stream".


More common extensions for program streams are ".mpg" and ".vob". I've actually never seen ".ps" (except for PostScript files, of course).

Otherwise, yeah. 

BTW, the free alternative to remuxing with VideoReDo:

ffmpeg -fflags +genpts -i infile.mpg -c:v copy -c:a copy outfile.ts


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## Nelson2009 (Mar 21, 2009)

thanks wmcbrine for ffmpeg i was able to install on mac os x and run them on terminal  only thing i'm getting this when coverted mpg to .ts "Invalid timestamps stream=0" 

I'm using Kmttg now and pytivo. 
I find something strange right now I'm sure when what is happen. 
after you download your show then dycrpted does any notice Closed caption is garbled I never see this happen before last time i download Feb 2015 Superbowl 49 the captions was perfect Something had change ?? I use CTivo or Tivo Transfer (roxio). I also did tried Kmttg CC is garbled. 
both tivo hd and premiere recorded same show example FearTWD. I get the same result I think it could be TV network. I have to try test other tv network 

Anyone see that coming ? 
anyway I took summer deal roamio basic and gonna replace premiere and Tivo HD (Tivo HD is my trustee and it been the best for 6 1/2 year)


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## Nelson2009 (Mar 21, 2009)

I finally got Captioning working when i push any mpeg or ts back to Premiere that work. it been 1 year didn't get chance to get it work. 
I realize I made mistake and i had chance to look PyTivo conf on Web browser. there is box where "TS:" I typed "=on" I decided open pitivo.conf in Textedit I saw mistake "ts = = on" duh me !!! 

WMCBRINE thank you for your instruction I wish i caught my mistake last year oh well

Now only 1 problem when we download show from Tivo Closed Caption is still garbling even .tivo or mpg when you play on computer. I'm not sure what change. Never happen before last time was feb 2015 work fine.


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