# Re-Watching Buffy The Vampire Slayer SPOILERS!



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Since this is a re-watch thread, there can be spoilers! I'm ready to kick it off, so...Ready? Here we go

*S1E1 Welcome to the Hellmouth!!!*


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## AliaDoh (Apr 23, 2005)

So fun! I rewatched it with my husband a year or so ago. I also like to rewatch Once More with Feeling, Amends (at Christmas), Hush and some others periodically. Season one is my least favorite, however, so I often skip it.


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## bruab (Nov 16, 2001)

Whats's the plan? One a week or what? I have season one, but I haven't watched it all....


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I haven't really made a plan yet. I don't know how long we want to make it last? I'm watching S1E1 right now. I'd like to watch at least 2 eps a week if that works for everyone?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Earlier this year, Alan Sepinwall and Dan Feinberg (tv critics) did a Buffy rewatch and discussed the episodes on their "Firewall & Iceberg" podcast. Link: http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-wa...uffy-the-vampire-slayer-longmire-mad-men-more

Here's a link to the episode order guide, for those intending to add Angel into the mix: http://www.andrewmcdonald.net.au/my-guide-to-watching-buffy-angel-post-tv/


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

I watched along with Sepinwall this summer. It was fun to rewatch those first episodes.


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## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

I usually skip Ted. That episode really bothers me.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Huh. I just watched s01e01, and apparently I hadn't seen it before. I wonder if I've seen any of the first season. I can't recall at what point I first started watching. Everyone looks so young, and the acting and sfx were so bad!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I was excited about this thread but since I'm a first time watcher, I'm going to skip it


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I was excited about this thread but since I'm a first time watcher, I'm going to skip it


I was going to try and rewatch Buffy. Last time I tried but only got thru season one and two and just couldn't get into it at all I stopped. I may retry again with this thread. I am a big Angel fan and love Firefly. For some reason Buffy never pinged me.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I was excited about this thread but since I'm a first time watcher, I'm going to skip it


When I suggested it, I was thinking more along the lines of a "watch along with Anubys" spoiler-free thread, similar to how we did the recent Supernatural thread with Photoshopgrl. I was also thinking it wouldn't start until he was ready for it. Looks like it took itself a different direction.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

danterner said:


> Huh. I just watched s01e01, and apparently I hadn't seen it before. I wonder if I've seen any of the first season. I can't recall at what point I first started watching. Everyone looks so young, and the acting and sfx were so bad!


I know, I was thinking the same thing. But I know I've seen it before since I have the DVD set and watched the whole thing when I first got it. I so did not remember that Darla was there! I'm just getting old.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

danterner said:


> When I suggested it, I was thinking more along the lines of a "watch along with Anubys" spoiler-free thread, similar to how we did the recent Supernatural thread with Photoshopgrl. I was also thinking it wouldn't start until you were ready for it. Looks like it took itself a different direction.


There's room on the board for an Anubys thread, too.  Go for it!


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

From very first the moment of S1E1, I knew that damned Whedon was gonna get me with more than a few _gotchas!_

The very first scene opens and we see some kids up to some mischief. I knew that sweet blonde schoolgirl was in danger, I just knew it.

Ooops! OMG! *She's *the vampire!! How cool was _that?_

I really only watched all of the first three seasons. I fell in love love _love _with Cordelia, and I had to follow her to _Angel_. I caught a few more eps of Buffy from then on, but nothing too regularly.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I always skip season 1 when doing a Buffy watch. I love that all of them are on Netflix.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Well, I watched the first two eps last night. It's not bad. But not like when I caught up with LOST or Breaking Bad, that's for sure.

quick question: is it all in 4:3 and SD?


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Anubys said:


> quick question: is it all in 4:3 and SD?


Yes. The show preceded (common) availability of both widescreen and HDTV in the United States. HDTV scripted programming didn't generally occur until the 2000's. Buffy began in 1997 and concluded in 2003.

(Also keep in mind that Buffy was broadcast on The WB initially, then UPN, both lower rated startup networks whose affiliates generally would not have had money or resources to be early adopters of digital or HDTV broadcasts.)


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Well, I watched the first two eps last night. It's not bad. But not like when I caught up with LOST or Breaking Bad, that's for sure.
> 
> quick question: is it all in 4:3 and SD?


Season 1 is relatively silly and more low budget than the other seasons. The following seasons get much better.

SMG was cute as a button for the first couple of years.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

hmmm...ok...so I should tough out season 1 and it should get better?

I'll give it 7 seasons and then I'm bailing if it's not good enough


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Since I just watched them, I could safely say you could watch 3, 7, 9, 10, 12, and get the best of Season 1. Of course the other episodes may have some small great Whedon moments, parts of them are just bad. Those eps above would make sure you get most of the important overarching plot.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

My OCD would never allow me to do that! I must watch every episode!

With all the shows out on hiatus until January, I have 2 long weekends to do some serious watching.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I finished S1E2, The Harvest, last night. Season 1 is pretty cheesy. I'd forgotten how cheesy it is, but I'm still enjoying it.

I'd also forgotten what a B Cordy was. I loved when Willow told her the way to save the program was "Deliver" and of course, Cordy hit the delete key. I'm easily amused.

Poor Jessie. He didn't last long.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Ah, Jessie. Our introduction to Joss's willingness to kill off anyone, anytime, anywhere. 

Am I remembering right that he was in the opening montage for the pilot to make it more of a shock?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I watched all 7 seasons in a blurry haze a few years back. I'm re-watching slowly now with my wife and a couple of friends. I remember thinking that the show started getting good at the beginning of season 2. I think I was mistaken - it only just started getting good near the end of the 2nd season. Until then it was "bad good" as my wife says - silly and campy but fun to watch so we can comment on the weird clothes and weird sayings of the day. We have taken to talking about "jacking in" since watching a related episode of Buffy. Also we mention "jamming on" things.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

I rewatched it earlier this year. It was so great going through it all again.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I'm in!

Welcome to the Hellmouth:

Alyson Hannigan! So innocently adorable, such a twist from Lily on HIMYM.

Aw, Principal Flutie. You tried to give her a fresh start.

Contrast to TVD:

I miss the days of bloodless bloodsucking. TVD seems to go out of their way to get everyone's mouths as bloody as possible. Seriously. Who eats like that? 

I also laughed when they cut to the school after she'd been having nightmares. Very similar to TVD where the second scene is always something bright and chirpy at the high school.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> hmmm...ok...so I should tough out season 1 and it should get better?
> 
> I'll give it 7 seasons and then I'm bailing if it's not good enough


Season 1 is a tough watch. Good thing it's short. 

But other great shows (The Office, P&R) also had terrible first seasons and became something great. Of course, those two are half-hour shows and the first season was something like 6 eps, whereas Buffy was an hour-long show and the first season was 12 eps.

I'd be totally in for a re-watch, but I'm so hopelessly behind my regular shows due to a recent vacation that I have to catch up over Christmas or my DVR is going to explode. Maybe this summer...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Robin said:


> I also laughed when they cut to the school after she'd been having nightmares. Very similar to TVD where the second scene is always something bright and chirpy at the high school.


That can't be true. They only go to school three or four times a year on TVD.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> I watched all 7 seasons in a blurry haze a few years back. I'm re-watching slowly now with my wife and a couple of friends. I remember thinking that the show started getting good at the beginning of season 2. I think I was mistaken - it only just started getting good near the end of the 2nd season. Until then it was "bad good" as my wife says - silly and campy but fun to watch so we can comment on the weird clothes and weird sayings of the day. We have taken to talking about "jacking in" since watching a related episode of Buffy. Also we mention "jamming on" things.


I would say early in Season 2. I think we get introduced to certain new characters around episode 4. That's a good indicator that season 2 will be better and continue getting better.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> That can't be true. They only go to school three or four times a year on TVD.


Yeah, right before the Harvest Festival, the Big Game, etc...


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

They have to go to school, how else are they going to decorate the gym?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

hummingbird_206 said:


> I finished S1E2, The Harvest, last night. Season 1 is pretty cheesy. I'd forgotten how cheesy it is, but I'm still enjoying it.
> 
> I'd also forgotten what a B Cordy was. I loved when Willow told her the way to save the program was "Deliver" and of course, Cordy hit the delete key. I'm easily amused.
> 
> Poor Jessie. He didn't last long.


I thought of TCF when I saw that. I cringed as I imagined the heated arguments about what brand and model the dumb terminal was. The placement of the delete key, the compiler used, how pressing the delete key would not have caused the program to be deleted...etc.

Just pages and pages of name-calling...it would have been glorious!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Don't want to thread-crap...but after watching S1E03, I'm starting to think that life is too short to spend it watching something in 4:3 SD. 

if Ep 3 is one of best of season 1 (as mentioned in this thread), I fear I won't last until the show gets good.

Complicating matters is that I discovered that I had Continuum all queued up and ready to go and I like that show a ton better (watched the first 3 eps of season 1 last night and I love it. Buffy feels more like a chore to watch at this point). So I'm going to watch Continuum first and come back to this if time permits.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

There are really only 3 really good eps in the entirety of S1. 1.1 "Welcome to the Hellmouth", 1.7 "Angel", and the finale, 1.12 "Prophecy Girl". A few others I enjoy for various reasons, but otherwise, you have to wait for S2 for it to be consistently great.

But I still think it's worth it to slog through S1, because that way you can appreciate the greatness of the next 4 seasons.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Well said. 

Just watch season 1 in the background while you pay bills, fold laundry, or read tcf.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Yes, I am up to S01E06, now, and thus far the series has been nothing near as good as my memory of how it gets in later years. The seed is there, but it hasn't taken root. Because in hindsight I know how good it becomes, watching these early episodes is actually kind of fun. But if I had no basis for comparison, I might be tempted to give up, as well.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I've never been steered wrong by TCF, so I trust you guys. It's tough being an HD snob, though 

The way I'm racing through Continuum, Buffy will get her chance again by next weekend at the latest.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I get being an HD snob. I hate SD. But I love Buffy so much that I'm willing to make the sacrifice. It is tough though. 

I'm off work for the next 17 days, so I'm hoping to make a big progress in the rewatch!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

taking your advice and watching ep 4 right now, surfing TCF and finalizing my fantasy football lineups


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ep 7 was pretty good. I wondered why the cross didn't deter him, but nice touch to show that it did (keeping it cryptic for spoiler police).


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Cordelia is hot. That's reason enough to slog through season 1. Plus, SMG was so cute when she was younger.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I sure hope we find out that Buffy has some special skills/powers or something. So far, it seems that anyone who took some karate classes can be a slayer!


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I sure hope we find out that Buffy has some special skills/powers or something. So far, it seems that anyone who took some karate classes can be a slayer!


I'll spoil that much for you: no. Slayers have preternatural strength and reflexes and heal incredibly quick, but have no other special powers. They're still just people.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I sure hope we find out that Buffy has some special skills/powers or something. So far, it seems that anyone who took some karate classes can be a slayer!


In the first or second episode, when the principal catches her by the school gate as she is about to cut, she does a backwards jump over the gate. The scene is really hokey, because the gate is like 10' tall, and one moment she's on the near side facing away from it and the next you see her starting a jumping motion and landing on the other side, still facing the same direction, all seemingly without much effort. That's pretty super.

I love Buffy's karate and gymnastics. The stunt doubles are always so painfully obvious, more than on most shows. It's part of the charm of the series, to me, though I don't know if it was meant intentionally to be bad; I suspect not.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

I need to rewatch this (and Angel) at some point. 

I don't remember all the seasons in detail but I do remember 

Season 1 is kind of weak

Season 2 and Season 3 are my favorites. 

Season 4 - I don't have a lot of good to say about it. There are a few classic episodes but the overall story arc was bad. 

Season 5 - I seem to remember liking the Glory story line.

Season 6 and 7 - I have only watched this episodes once, although I own the DVDs. I think I liked 7 more than many people did (if I remember correctly) but there was a twist with Buffy's love life (avoiding spoilers) in season 6 that I just never accepted.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Anubys said:


> Ep 7 was pretty good. I wondered why the cross didn't deter him, but nice touch to show that it did (keeping it cryptic for spoiler police).


I think you're the one we're worried about spoiling things for, so you should feel free to list details!


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S1E3 Witch
I loved at the beginning of the ep when Buffy told Giles that she just wanted to do something normal (being a cheerleader). That cracked me up, because even though I didn't remember the ep, I knew there was no way Buffy would be involved in anything normal.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S1E4 Teacher's Pet

Poor Xander.


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## JerryLBell (May 3, 2002)

I never got into Buffy or Angel, though my wife did. She still watches random episodes as they come up on TV, so I bought her the boxed sets for both series for Christmas. _Maybe _I'll watch them this time with her. After all, I didn't watch Doctor Who or Farscape with her when they first aired and I really got into them when I watched them later on DVDs. Plus Firefly made a confirmed fan of Joss Whedon out of me.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Anubys said:


> So I'm going to watch Continuum first and come back to this if time permits.


There is only 1 season/10 Episodes, so you won't be gone for long


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S1E5 Never Kill a Boy on the First Date
S1E6 The Pack

Owen was pretty cute. Felt bad for Buffy that she had to break it off with him.

The hyena keeper sure was creepy. Glad Buffy got rid of him quickly. So Xander didn't really lose his memory? Guess that means the other students remember chowing down on the principal? Ick!


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S1E7 Angel

C'mon Joyce, really, a BBQ fork?

Buh bye Darla.

Ouch, that cross sure left a mark.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

"it hurts". Yeah, looks like it!

Darla:



Spoiler



buh bye for now...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Cordelia is hot. That's reason enough to slog through season 1. Plus, SMG was so cute when she was younger.


is that the name of the hot *****y girl?

She has the best lines on the show! and, man, she cannot sing worth a damn.

I hope her role gets bigger, she is really funny...

ep 9 is almost done (a big letdown after the excellent ep 7). Will probably go to ep 8 of Continuum next.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

OK...the ending to ep9 was awesome...

"I don't get it...is it some avant guard thing?" (or something like that)  :up:


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I spent a lot of time on this Buffy episode guide website back in the day. I think BtVS was one of the first shows to have a big internet presence.

http://www.buffyguide.com/episodes.shtml


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

1e10: nightmares 

"what do they need all those legs for, anyway? "

Didn't realize that line from the musical was a rerun!


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Cordelia is hot. That's reason enough to slog through season 1.


Abso-freaking-LUTELY!

And she's the reason I started watching _Angel_.

Charisma manages to be a character that is very self-possessed, but also self-deprecating, too. I loved Cordy. She is as much comic relief as Xander.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

So her big revealing moment re: popularity in 1e11 (Out Of Sight, I think) the first time we've seen her other side?


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

Yeah. I think we don't really begin to see that Cordy was more than surface snarky brittleness until the near the end of the 1st season.

Still, I Thought I saw hints of some layers earlier. Or at least my _hormones _kept hoping I'd see more of Charisma's Cordy.

Thankfully, Cordy's snarky sense of humor never disappeared completely. She kept a sarcastic wit about her, and I think it helped keep others on their toes.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Robin said:


> "it hurts". Yeah, looks like it!
> 
> Darla:
> 
> ...


Yep!



cheesesteak said:


> I spent a lot of time on this Buffy episode guide website back in the day. I think BtVS was one of the first shows to have a big internet presence.
> 
> http://www.buffyguide.com/episodes.shtml


Another yep. I mentioned in another thread that Buffy was my intro to 'shippers'.



MikeCC said:


> Abso-freaking-LUTELY!
> 
> And she's the reason I started watching _Angel_.
> 
> Charisma manages to be a character that is very self-possessed, but also self-deprecating, too. I loved Cordy. She is as much comic relief as Xander.


I love Cordy way more than Xander. Her comic relief is *****y whereas his is just too whiney for me. IMO, Xander is ok, but Cordy is the best!


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Hmm. I never got "whiney" from Xander, at least not until a certain incident much much later. Until then, he always seemed like a good natured everyman.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I guess to me everyman is whiney.

eta: Not to say I hate Xander. I think he's ok. But he's my least favorite character in season 1.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I agree. I like Xander but I love the others. He's definitely whiny!

Prophecy Girl (s1e12) is up next. CAN'T WAIT.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Done with season 1. Just noticed season 2 is 22 episodes...yikes...

did you guys say it doesn't get better till the end of season 2?


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## alpacaboy (Oct 29, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I sure hope we find out that Buffy has some special skills/powers or something. So far, it seems that anyone who took some karate classes can be a slayer!





LoadStar said:


> I'll spoil that much for you: no. Slayers have preternatural strength and reflexes and heal incredibly quick, but have no other special powers. They're still just people.


"My secret weapon is PMS?"
- Buffy (Kristy Swanson)

(Okay, I don't remember if they had anything analogous in the tv series. I don't think so though.)


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## Eddief66 (Oct 24, 2009)

alpacaboy said:


> "My secret weapon is PMS?"
> - Buffy (Kristy Swanson)
> 
> (Okay, I don't remember if they had anything analogous in the tv series. I don't think so though.)


In season 2



Spoiler



Willow makes a reference to PMS's monthly occurrence after they find out that Oz is a werewolf.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Done with season 1. Just noticed season 2 is 22 episodes...yikes...
> 
> did you guys say it doesn't get better till the end of season 2?


Season 2 is much better than season 1 but since it's 22 episodes, there are definitely a couple of turds in it just like every other 22 episode per season show.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

S2 had some of the best episodes of the series. Lie to me, surprise /innocence, becoming. It's often considered the strongest season!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> Lie to me


of course I'll still love you.

She means nothing to me. we're just friends.

those pants do NOT make you look fat.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S1E11 Out of Mind, Out of Sight
I loved Cordy in this ep. Perfect balance of nasty and nice.

S1E12 Prophecy Girl
I liked Buffy's dress, too!

Finished Season 1! Now on to Season 2!!


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I had to resort to IMDzb for a clue as to where I recognized Dave, from S01E08 (the one about the Internet demon), from.












Spoiler



It's Ash, from Supernatural!


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

hummingbird_206 said:


> S1E11 Out of Mind, Out of Sight
> I loved Cordy in this ep. Perfect balance of nasty and nice.
> 
> S1E12 Prophecy Girl
> ...


Ahh, didn't Cordy take "I'll drive you guys to the library" in a literal direction?


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S2E1 When She was Bad 
I'm so glad moody angsty Buffy didn't stick around for long.

S2E2 Some Assembly Required 
Meh, not one of my favorites. Good play on Frankenstein though.

S2E3 School Hard 
One of my favorite eps! I loved Xander juggling the contents of Buffy's purse looking for a stake. Willow stuck in the closet with Cordy. Joyce clocking Spike, and of course that means SPIKE and DRU show up, yay!


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S2E4 Inca Mummy Girl
Dingoes Ate My Baby! I loved Willow's eskimo outfit. Who is that girl?!

Whew, lots of BtVS viewing for me this weekend. Now it's time for football. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy Festivus, and to all a good night!


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Annoyed to discover my s1 and s2 DVDs are missing. I've been watching on Netflix but the picture is terrible. Hoping the DVDs might be better. 

No idea where they are. I must have loaned them out.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Just finished up season one. Turns out the whole thing was a first-watch, not a rewatch. I wonder if season two will be new for me, too. Still can't remember where in the series I started watching. I know I definitely never watched the final season, so I'm looking forward to that.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I finished ep 7 of season 2. The problem is that I now got used to watching it while doing other things and I can't seem to break out of that routine...


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I don't remember all the eps between now and then, but get comfy and focus for surprise and innocence.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S2E5 Reptile Boy
Rainy and cold here, so a good day to get back to the Scooby gang.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I watched Reptile Boy last night.

Talk about the poster child for pathetic special effects!


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Whoa, yeah, really bad special effects. And Xander made quite the ugly chick.

I loved Willow this ep. She's great when she's bossy, and then realizes she's being bossy.

Next up, S2E6 Halloween.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Watching s1e7,Lie to Me. 

Another line recycled in OMWF: "once more, with tension."


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Robin said:


> Watching s1e7,Lie to Me.
> 
> Another line recycled in OMWF: "once more, with tension."


I think you meant S2.
I'm terrible at remembering/recognizing lines.

I'd forgotten that Angel sired Dru.

Now on to S2E8 The Dark Age


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Ha ha, yes, thanks. 

I've watched OMWF am obscene number of times and listened to the soundtrack twice that. I could probably recite it.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

Robin said:


> Ha ha, yes, thanks.
> 
> I've watched OMWF am obscene number of times and listened to the soundtrack twice that. I could probably recite it.


Me too. But I have an excuse-- I had a Media Studies professor in college who was obsessed with Buffy, and I talked her into letting me do an independent study course specifically about OMWF and how it fits into (and a lot of times, breaks from) the established genre of the movie musical. I wrote something like a 50-page paper on it. Got an A+.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

David Platt said:


> Me too. But I have an excuse-- I had a Media Studies professor in college who was obsessed with Buffy, and I talked her into letting me do an independent study course specifically about OMWF and how it fits into (and a lot of times, breaks from) the established genre of the movie musical. I wrote something like a 50-page paper on it. Got an A+.


I'd be interested to read it... would you be able to post it someplace?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LoadStar said:


> I'd be interested to read it... would you be able to post it someplace?


and watch us nit-pick the A+ down to a D


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S2E9&10 What's My Line

Slayer Handbook? Ha!


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S2E11 Ted
Wow, John Ritter was so creepy.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S2E13 Surprise
S2E14 Innocence

Oh man, I remember crying along with Buffy when this first aired. Just so sad.


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## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

hummingbird_206 said:


> S2E11 Ted
> Wow, John Ritter was so creepy.


Yeah, that whole episode just seems too dark for me, ironically. I rarely watch Ted for that reason. John Ritter did very well in that episode.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

David Platt said:


> Me too. But I have an excuse-- I had a Media Studies professor in college who was obsessed with Buffy, and I talked her into letting me do an independent study course specifically about OMWF and how it fits into (and a lot of times, breaks from) the established genre of the movie musical. I wrote something like a 50-page paper on it. Got an A+.


You are required by TCF code to share.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

crap...falling way behind you guys now...will try to catch up tomorrow...


----------



## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

Robin said:


> You are required by TCF code to share.


I'll try to upload it for public consumption tomorrow.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> crap...falling way behind you guys now...will try to catch up tomorrow...


Did you lose a bet or something?


----------



## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

David Platt said:


> Me too. But I have an excuse-- I had a Media Studies professor in college who was obsessed with Buffy, and I talked her into letting me do an independent study course specifically about OMWF and how it fits into (and a lot of times, breaks from) the established genre of the movie musical. I wrote something like a 50-page paper on it. Got an A+.


Wow, did I grossly mis-remember the length of this paper. It was only 12 pages. 

Anyway, here's a link for anybody who wants to take a look:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B3TfW99JUUgyVGU4LXA1c1JRNG8

Warning: it is pretty dry and very academic. I was about four years into an advanced English and Literary Studies degree, and I wrote accordingly. If you've ever read any of the literary theory books on Buffy, this is very much in the same vein. I took a lot of shortcuts with making connections between things and elaborating on points because I was good friends with the professor I wrote it for and I knew she had an extensive working knowledge of Buffy and some of the other literary theory I referred to.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

David Platt said:


> Wow, did I grossly mis-remember the length of this paper. It was only 12 pages.
> 
> Anyway, here's a link for anybody who wants to take a look:
> 
> ...


Interesting. I'm a little surprised that you didn't touch on "Going Through the Motions," in which a young female character is the hero(ine) coming to the rescue, and the very Disney looking buff gentleman is the "damsel in distress," and instead of a romantic reward, he is dismissed mid-lyric with a simple "whatever."


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

- do you want to go to the utility closet and make out?

- ugh...is that all you think about? um...ok!

I'm loving that relationship...all kinds of awesome!


----------



## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

LoadStar said:


> Interesting. I'm a little surprised that you didn't touch on "Going Through the Motions," in which a young female character is the hero(ine) coming to the rescue, and the very Disney looking buff gentleman is the "damsel in distress," and instead of a romantic reward, he is dismissed mid-lyric with a simple "whatever."


If I would have thought of that, I definitely would have! That would have fit perfectly.


----------



## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Thanks David. After reading your paper, I'm now watching OMWF again.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

And here I am busy resisting the urge to jump ahead.

Just finished Ted.

Overalls are my biggest ever fashion peeve for anyone over the age of three. *gag*

I know they had a place in the episode, to show her state of mind, but why does she even OWN them?


----------



## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

Because people wore them then.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Really? I sure don't remember them from then.

Now the high-waisted pants are similarly cringe-worthy but THOSE I remember.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S2E15 Phases 
S2E16 Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered
S2E17 Passion
S2E18 Killed by Death

I love Oz. He's one of my favorite characters. Nice to see Amy back for an ep.

Buh bye 


Spoiler



Jenny


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S2E19 I Only Have Eyes for You

Just spotted Christopher Gorham (Auggie from Covert Affairs)!

eta: Angelus needs to lay off the mascara.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I way behind the rest of you, but I have no life so I'll close the gap. 

Watched the first three episodes of season 1. It was liking seeing old friends again who you didn't realize you missed. Is been a long time since I watched any Buffy, I don't think I've rewatched anything since the series finale.

In the Witch,



Spoiler



I forgot Amy's mom switched them!



I don't think I'll go past season five. I didn't love either six or seven and I thought five wrapped things up the best. I never watched Angel but sporadically, I might give that one a full watch.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Welcome aboard. The more the merrier!


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm ready to be done with Xander lusting after Buffy and Willow after Xander.

I'm also ready to be done with the Bronze but I think that sticks around quite a while! Mostly it's the gratuitous lingering on the indie bands that gets old.

Finished S01E06 The Pack. Loved the X-Files reference when Buffy can't believe Giles is "going Scully" on her. 

I originally liked Xander, but I'm finding him much less funny and charming this time around mostly because of MASSIVE season 6 SPOILER



Spoiler



Xander dumping Anya on their wedding day. I've never forgiven him for how he treated her.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Also, Xander seems so familiar. I mean, it feels like he's reminding me of a character I've watched more recently. Maybe I'm just remembering him, but it's just this odd feeling as I watch. But I can't think of any shows. Hmm, maybe it's Shawn Spencer from Psych...That might be it. Same goofy sarcasm, doesn't take anything seriously, makes jokes about everything.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

As I rewatch I'm discovering I haven't seen many of these since the first time. Not first run, quite, but still it's been YEARS!

I didn't discover Buffy until the musical which I watched, was completely hooked, and then went back and watched the rest in reruns. I suppose that means I've never had a spoiler-free viewing.


----------



## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

hummingbird_206 said:


> S2E19 I Only Have Eyes for You
> 
> Just spotted Christopher Gorham (Auggie from Covert Affairs)!
> 
> eta: Angelus needs to lay off the mascara.


In the episode with the hyenas, another Covert Affairs cast member showed up (the first boyfriend who was in the CIA).


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S01E07 Angel
S01E08 I, Robot... You, Jane

Episode 8 made me sad because of Ms. Calendar. And because at the end, the three scoobies agree they are doomed to never have a normal relationship. How right they are!


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S01E12 Prophecy Girl

That was an emotional episode! Buffy saying she's 16 and doesn't want to die is so tough to watch. 

All in all, I liked season 1! Some hokey moments, but the rest of you are much tougher on it than I was. It introduces the characters and their challenges that will grow and expand over the next few seasons. I love the dialog and didn't find the f/x objectionable. Solid B season!


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Zevida said:


> S01E12 Prophecy Girl
> 
> That was an emotional episode! Buffy saying she's 16 and doesn't want to die is so tough to watch.


That quote always gets me.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Zevida - Your season 6 spoiler is something I consider the biggest misstep that the show made. Especially in light of what happens later in the season as well.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I haven't exactly been blazing through my rewatch (I'm only at S02E03), but it looks like my pace will be slowing quite a lot - my wife is coming aboard the rewatch with me, as is my older daughter (it'll be a first for her). I'm curious to see her opinion of it. She's a huge twilight fan (films and books both) and is now reading Bram Stoker's Dracula so she's very much on a supernatural kick. She's also a big fan of Doctor Horrible, which is the only thing she knows from Whedon (well, the Avengers, too).


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Fun! How old is she? I'm dying to watch with my girls but they're not there yet


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Robin said:


> Fun! How old is she? I'm dying to watch with my girls but they're not there yet


She'll be 13 next month, but is wise beyond her years. I'm pretty sure this will be the first "old" series she's watched; I'm curious to hear her reactions to bygone technologies like pagers and pay phones and terminology like "jacking into the net" and Giles' general Luddite attitude.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S02E01 When She Was Bad
S02E02 Some Assembly Required

I thought the season opener was pretty good, Buffy had to deal with the issues from last season. B

I tuned out quite a bit through the second episode. Two in a row of Cordelia kidnapped and in trouble, no thanks. Not sure this one moved the story along at all, pretty forgettable. Not bad, not great. C

I'm very much looking forward to the arrival of the new characters in episode 3!


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

S2E20 Go fish. 

Not my favorite, but "walk me home" cracked me up.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S02E03 School Hard - A
S02E04 Inca Mummy Girl - B
S02E05 Reptile Boy - D

Spike! Dru! Oz! Jonathon! 

Spike is awesome. That's enough to give School Hard an A. A terrific intro to the character all around. Toasting the anointed was classic. And Dru and her dolls - forgot about that!

Inca Mummy Girl gets credit for introducing Oz and being a slightly above average monster of the week episode. 

Reptile Boy had a terrible monster, terrible frat boys, was second episode in a row with no Spike, and the third (of five!) episodes so far this season with a shrieking Cordelia-in-trouble. I really should give it a D. It might get downgraded based on the rest of the season.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I had forgotten how often Jonathan shows up. Now it's like playing where's Waldo... He's been showing up for ages!


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Robin said:


> I had forgotten how often Jonathan shows up. Now it's like playing where's Waldo... He's been showing up for ages!


I thought the same thing when we started our rewatch last summer. He keeps popping up and I didn't notice him the first time until his first major episode.



Spoiler



I mean the one with him and the gun in the bell tower


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Zevida said:


> Spike is awesome. That's enough to give School Hard an A. A terrific intro to the character all around. Toasting the anointed was classic. And Dru and her dolls - forgot about that!


Yay, Spike! He's my favorite


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

Robin said:


> I had forgotten how often Jonathan shows up. Now it's like playing where's Waldo... He's been showing up for ages!


I could not remember who was Jonathan; wiki to the rescue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Levinson

Tim S.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I'm dong a re-watch now for the 3rd or 4th time, and this time I'm going to watch Buffy & Angel in the correct episode order. First time I'm watching Angel.

-smak-


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

smak said:


> I'm dong a re-watch now for the 3rd or 4th time, and this time I'm going to watch Buffy & Angel in the correct episode order. First time I'm watching Angel.
> 
> -smak-


Is this a site with the correct order for both?

Tim S.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I have a spoiler question for Angel. I mostly know what happened on Angel but I couldn't remember if this happened. I tried reading Angel's background on wikipedia, but was getting too many specific spoilers that might ruin a rewatch since I never watched it regularly.



Spoiler



Were Angel and Cordy ever a couple? I'm laughing now as Cordy throws herself all over Angel early in Buffy season 2, but then that reminded me I might have been annoyed because they eventually fell in love in Angel and that pissed me off. I'm a total Buffy and Angel "shipper" (before that was a thing). No matter how different Cordy was I wasn't willing to accept Angel would pick her. I know she had a thing with Conner based on my Wiki skimming, but can't remember what happened with Angel.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

smak said:


> I'm dong a re-watch now for the 3rd or 4th time, and this time I'm going to watch Buffy & Angel in the correct episode order. First time I'm watching Angel.
> 
> -smak-


That's my plan too. I've probably seen about 50% of Angel, maybe less.


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

Zevida said:


> I have a spoiler question for Angel. I mostly know what happened on Angel but I couldn't remember if this happened. I tried reading Angel's background on wikipedia, but was getting too many specific spoilers that might ruin a rewatch since I never watched it regularly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Partial answer to Spoiler below:



Spoiler



IIRC, there was a few times it looked like Cordy and Angel might become a couple; but, I never saw any that happen in the early seasons of Angel I stopped watching Angel sometime in Season four.

IIRC, Cordy did hook up with two guys; both were major plot twists.

I only recall a single time Angel hooked up with someone other than Buffy; but that might be because that one sticks in my mind because it also was lead up to major plot twist.

Note: I have memory issues; so, I could have forgotten something.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Thanks for the Angel spoiler info!

S02E06 Halloween - C
S02E07 Lie to Me - B

Ethan! Halloween was a pretty good concept, turning into your costume. Willow walking through the wall causing Giles to toss the card catalog into the air was a LOL moment. But Buffy in that atrocious wig and as the timid southern Belle was really bad. 

Lie to Me introduced the concept of bad guys who aren't obvious and can be sympathetic. I really enjoyed the poignant moment at the end between Buffy and Giles at the grave. Solid episode.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Zevida said:


> I have a spoiler question for Angel. I mostly know what happened on Angel but I couldn't remember if this happened. I tried reading Angel's background on wikipedia, but was getting too many specific spoilers that might ruin a rewatch since I never watched it regularly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



They came very close. They did have feelings for each other, but it never quite worked out. Any more than that would be a big spoiler.



I was trying to find a link to remember the details of their relationship and this one made me laugh. Note: BIG ANGEL SERIES SPOILERS. It's basically Angel and Cordy's relationship explained in one long (long) run-on sentence.

http://www.freewebs.com/cordyandangel/


----------



## SleepyBob (Sep 28, 2000)

I've never watched Buffy before and just checked out the first two DVDs from the library. How many episodes do I need to hang in for to make sure I give it a fair shake? Will I know within the first couple episodes? I noticed that AliaDoh said that season 1 was her least favorite.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

danterner said:


> In the first or second episode, when the principal catches her by the school gate as she is about to cut, she does a backwards jump over the gate. The scene is really hokey, because the gate is like 10' tall, and one moment she's on the near side facing away from it and the next you see her starting a jumping motion and landing on the other side, still facing the same direction, all seemingly without much effort. That's pretty super.


I felt like they toned that stuff down a little over the years, so as to make her not too unbeatable. There are plenty of times that I used to think to myself - "wait, she used to be able to jump over a 10 foot fence. Now she can't even do _______ ?"



danterner said:


> I love Buffy's karate and gymnastics. The stunt doubles are always so painfully obvious, more than on most shows. It's part of the charm of the series, to me, though I don't know if it was meant intentionally to be bad; I suspect not.


Yeah, the doubling was pretty bad. But it's just part of the charm.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

hummingbird_206 said:


> Next up, S2E6 Halloween.


One of my favorite eps. I loved Xander being competent for once.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

SleepyBob said:


> I've never watched Buffy before and just checked out the first two DVDs from the library. How many episodes do I need to hang in for to make sure I give it a fair shake? Will I know within the first couple episodes? I noticed that AliaDoh said that season 1 was her least favorite.


107 (Angel) is good. 112 (Prophecy Girl) is great.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

SleepyBob said:


> I've never watched Buffy before and just checked out the first two DVDs from the library. How many episodes do I need to hang in for to make sure I give it a fair shake? Will I know within the first couple episodes? I noticed that AliaDoh said that season 1 was her least favorite.


Like I said upthread, S1 isn't very good, but it's worth enduring for how it sets up the characters. There are 3 good eps in the first 12: 1.1, 1.7, and 1.12. The others have their moments, but they're on the whole shaky.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> One of my favorite eps. I loved Xander being competent for once.


I loved Cordy being Cordy 
I also really loved Willow's story in this one.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

SleepyBob said:


> I've never watched Buffy before and just checked out the first two DVDs from the library. How many episodes do I need to hang in for to make sure I give it a fair shake? Will I know within the first couple episodes? I noticed that AliaDoh said that season 1 was her least favorite.


If you don't like the characters at all within the first 3-4 episodes, it's probably not the show for you. You have to look past the bad f/x and goofy story lines. I think season 1 was actually not all that bad, but it might be partly nostalgia. If you are really struggling, skip ahead to S01E12 Prophecy Girl and watch that one.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S01E08 The Dark Age - B 
S01E09 What's My Line, Part 1 - B

More Ethan! Great episode to flesh out the Giles character and see that again, people are not one dimensional and all good or all bad. Clever Willow saves the day, this plus Halloween and she's really starting to shine. Poor Giles and Ms. Calendar. 

Kendra! Willie! Great set-up episode with lots of peril and danger and a great cliffhanger.

(Yes, I did watch two episodes over lunch while I'm working from home today. )


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

303 faith, hope, and trick 

"my youth and beauty aside... "

LOL


----------



## SleepyBob (Sep 28, 2000)

Okay -- off to the library now.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I watched a lot last night. I'll probably get season 2 finished this weekend. 

S02E10 What's My Line? Part 2 - A
S02E11 Ted - C
S02E12 Bad Eggs - C
S02E13 Surprise - B
S02E14 Innocence - A

Two slayers, no waiting! Great final showdown with the assassins and Spike, and good moment at the end with Kendra telling Buffy it's not a job. Oh, and lots of shirtless Angel =yum. 

Ted got a little too serious and real world for me. Bad Eggs was a better first half than second. The cowboy vamps deserved their own episode. 

Surprise was some good set-up but overly angsty. 

Innocence is top class from start to finish. Evil Angel is a much more dynamic and interesting character than one-note broody good Angel. The scene when Willow sees Xander kissing Cordy is heartbreaking. When Buffy finds Angel and he's an ass to her is just brutal. Oz and Willow in the van is touching. This is one of the best ever.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Zevida said:


> Evil Angel is a much more dynamic and inserting character than one-note broody good Angel.


Yes, but what does he insert, and where does he insert it?


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Robin said:


> Overalls are my biggest ever fashion peeve for anyone over the age of three. *gag*
> 
> I know they had a place in the episode, to show her state of mind, but why does she even OWN them?


Buffy and Willow wears overalls a lot in seasons 1 and 2. Willow wore them in Phases. I don't remember people wearing them at the time (I'm the same age as the characters) but maybe I was just oblivious. I don't remember wearing them after elementary school. Now I'm going to watch for the final appearance of overalls.

I did rock the stirrup pants in middle school though.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Yes, but what does he insert, and where does he insert it?


Oops! I meant interesting. He does do a lot more inserting of fangs into necks though.


----------



## Eddief66 (Oct 24, 2009)

Zevida said:


> Oops! I meant interesting. He does do a lot more inserting of fangs into necks though.


It was what he inserted and where that turned him evil.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S02E15 Phases - B
S02E16 Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered - B
S02E17 Passion - A

Phases was solid with some nice character development. Same for BBB. 

Passion, I cried.  Amazing episode, but heartbreaking. Maybe the best of the season? When Buffy hit Giles, I got really choked up.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Willow wears overalls a lot. IIRC Buffy wears them twice, the second time being the end of Becoming. They're her Depressed Pants.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Wardrobe spoiler!!!!1!!!


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

It says spoilers in the thread title!

[joyce] What Robin means is nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah. [/Joyce ]


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

She definitely wears them more than twice. You commented on them on Ted, but I saw her wearing them in an earlier episode before Ted. I didn't make note at the time which one. 

SMG must have been freezing during filming. They put her in tank tops a lot when most of the other kids in school are in long sleeves.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I googled - she had on overalls in Inca Mummy Girl. One site called them her "sad overalls" or "security overalls." She also wore overalls when painting the signs in School Hard, but I think painting overalls are forgivable?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Much like Depressed Overalls I could allow Painting Overalls if I could understand why she owned them in the first place. 

I know some people like(d) them, I just don't understand why.  I doubly hate them on pregnant women which is popular for some reason.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

305 homecoming 

I think that's the first use of a cell phone!


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm ok with overalls. 

I've been amused at the giant landline phones. Some aren't even wireless!


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Agatha Mystery said:


> In the episode with the hyenas, another Covert Affairs cast member showed up (the first boyfriend who was in the CIA).


Oh yeah, I remembered him when I saw that ep, but then forgot to post about it.



Zevida said:


> SMG must have been freezing during filming. They put her in tank tops a lot when most of the other kids in school are in long sleeves.


Slayers probably have a higher metabolism that keeps her warmer than us regular folks.

I'm at S2E21&22, Becoming parts 1&2. Oh man, break out the kleenex again.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S02E18 Killed by Death - C
S02E19 I Only Have Eyes for You - B
S02E20 Go Fish - C

Killed by Death was not as bad as I remembered or expected. Although the demon was way too Freddy Kruger. But Buffy remembering her cousin being killed by the demon was silly. 

I Only Have Eyes for you was quite good. I almost gave it an A. Really good emotional impact, great climax and great end. 

Hey! It's Michael Scofield! Otherwise, a filler episode. (With bad monster make-up.)

The monster of the week episodes often have a very X-Files feel, especially the endings, like Go Fish.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Finished watching Becoming. Damn, those are such good eps. At the end of part 2



Spoiler



When Buffy's back in her sad overalls, and Sarah McLachlan is singing "Full of Grace", I always tear up.



I think this is when I first became a Spike and Buffy shipper.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

hummingbird_206 said:


> I think this is when I first became a Spike and Buffy shipper.


Boooooooooo!

I'm watching those two episodes tonight.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Robin said:


> 305 homecoming
> 
> I think that's the first use of a cell phone!


Finishing homecoming:

"I've been the mayor for quite some time. "

LOL


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S3E1 Anne
Ugh, so depressing. Glad they didn't drag out Buffy being away.

S3E2 Dead Man's Party
I'm glad Joyce is no longer so oblivious. I thought it was an insult to her character that she didn't know Buffy was the slayer. And another Jonathan sighting! And I loved Joyce's "nah nah nah nah nah" to Snyder!

S3E3 Faith, Hope, and Trick
Wasn't expecting Faith so soon. I really like Eliza, but Faith is not one of my favorite characters.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Are you kidding me? Faith is her only character!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm out. I think I gave this show a fair chance. It's just not for me


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

307: Revelations 

"just another Tuesday night in Sunnydale" 

Another flash forward to the musical!


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I'm out. I think I gave this show a fair chance. It's just not for me


That's cool, more for the rest of us.

What ep did you make it to?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> That's cool, more for the rest of us.
> 
> What ep did you make it to?


Episode 13 of season 2


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I'm out. I think I gave this show a fair chance. It's just not for me


I'm glad you gave it a shot. If you have tolerance for one final episode, I'd suggest Hush (4x10). It's a standalone, and my favorite in the series. And if you have room for a second, "Once More, With Feeling" (6x07) is very fun. But if you've had your fill, at least you tried it.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Yeah, as I mentioned I started with OMWF. It probably affected how I viewed the entire series. 

If you're looking for standout episodes, don't miss The Body in season 5.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Robin said:


> Yeah, as I mentioned I started with OMWF. It probably affected how I viewed the entire series.
> 
> If you're looking for standout episodes, don't miss The Body in season 5.


I'm partial to Tabula Rasa, but you need the background to appreciate it.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I don't remember what season it's from but Buffy vs. Dracula was one of my favorites.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't remember what season it's from but Buffy vs. Dracula was one of my favorites.


Season 5, Episode 1.

Cute episode, but not my favorite.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Robin said:


> Are you kidding me? Faith is her only character!


Nah, she does some other stuff. I liked her in the Jay and Silent Bob movie, Bring it On, and her short lived series where she worked in a morgue. None of those were Faith characters.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I'm out. I think I gave this show a fair chance. It's just not for me


26 episodes is a pretty fair shake. I think if you didn't really like What's My Line Parts 1 & 2 and Passion, then it's probably not the show for you. Sorry to hear, but better to spend time watching stuff you really like!


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

hummingbird_206 said:


> Nah, she does some other stuff. I liked her in the Jay and Silent Bob movie, Bring it On, and her short lived series where she worked in a morgue. None of those were Faith characters.


I can't remember her from J&SB. I think her BiO character had a lot in common with Faith. My husband and I recognized her the second she showed up, in silhouette. Same swagger.

Was the morgue series Tru Calling? It's been years since I watched it, but IIRC she still had a lot of the same mannerisms.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S01E21 Becoming Part 1 - A
S01E22 Becoming Part 2 - A

Part 1, the ending always gets to me - Buffy running in slow-mo through the hallways of the school and then seeing Kendra. I had forgotten it was Dru that kills Kendra, for some reason I thought it was Spike. But then, I keep getting surprised in all the episodes, which is kind of fun. 

Part 2, well, I cried, again. Really tough ending. All-in-all, a stellar episode. Joyce finding out about Buffy. Joyce and Spike sitting in the living room together. The final battle with Buffy and Angel swordfighting. Spike beating Angel then Dru attacking him. I'm not sure how I feel about Xander not telling Buffy that Willow was trying the spell. I don't remember if that comes up again, but I don't like it.

Season 2 - A


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I am definitely not a fan of Eliza Dushku, especially after Dollhouse.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Zevida said:


> S01E21 Becoming Part 1 - A
> S01E22 Becoming Part 2 - A
> 
> Part 1, the ending always gets to me - Buffy running in slow-mo through the hallways of the school and then seeing Kendra. I had forgotten it was Dru that kills Kendra, for some reason I thought it was Spike. But then, I keep getting surprised in all the episodes, which is kind of fun.
> ...


Such great episodes!


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

jehma said:


> I am definitely not a fan of Eliza Dushku, especially after Dollhouse.


Amen.

I was just thinking about that today. I miss Sierra & Victor. They were exactly the caliber actors required for that roll.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I'm out. I think I gave this show a fair chance. It's just not for me





Robin said:


> That's cool, more for the rest of us.
> 
> What ep did you make it to?





Anubys said:


> Episode 13 of season 2





Zevida said:


> 26 episodes is a pretty fair shake. I think if you didn't really like What's My Line Parts 1 & 2 and Passion, then it's probably not the show for you. Sorry to hear, but better to spend time watching stuff you really like!


Yeah, Anubys gave it a fair shot. I really would hope that he would make it to the end of S2, because I think that I went from "Huh - I don't know why I keep watching" (S1) to "I kinda like this show" (middle of S2) to "OMFG this show is incredible!" (end of S2).

If at the end of S2 the show isn't for you. Fair enough. But you have to give the teen angst time to set its hooks in you.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Robin said:


> Amen.
> 
> I was just thinking about that today. I miss Sierra & Victor. They were exactly the caliber actors required for that roll.


I knew I liked you.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

stahta01 said:


> Is this a site with the correct order for both?
> 
> Tim S.


I'm using this one.

http://www.andrewmcdonald.net.au/my-guide-to-watching-buffy-angel-post-tv/

-smak-


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I remember always liking the Faith character. Not that I like her as a person, but I thought she was really interesting. I wonder how I'll feel on the rewatch.

I like Xander much less on the rewatch. I wonder how much is colored by future knowledge.

Oh, and I skimmed wikipedia to read the synopsis of the comic books for "seasons" 8 and 9. Boy did it get weird. Comic book weird! Felt more like what I'd expect from X-men. (Having never read an X-men comic and only seen the movies.)


----------



## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

jehma said:


> I am definitely not a fan of Eliza Dushku, especially after Dollhouse.


Doll house brought us Dichen Lachman. She should have been the lead on that show


----------



## Linnemir (Apr 7, 2009)

Ok, you guys inspired me - I just put seasons 1 &2 on reserve at the library!


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

It's available streaming on Netflix, too. 

(I love the library for books, but the DVDs are always scratched. )


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Linnemir said:


> Ok, you guys inspired me - I just put seasons 1 &2 on reserve at the library!


Yay! The more the merrier!


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S03E01 Anne - B
S03E02 Dead Man's Party - D
S03E03 Faith, Hope, and Trick - C

I actually liked Anne. I didn't have fond memories of it, but I thought it was well done, showing how the people back home were dealing and appropriately how Buffy was coping.

I did not like Dead Man's Party at all. The only moment I liked was when Buffy saw Giles and he went into the kitchen to get the teapot and took a moment to compose himself. Anthony Steward Head conveyed about 10 different things in that brief, silent moment. Otherwise, I wanted to punch Xander in the face (4 or 5 times). I identify so much more with Buffy, because when things go bad, I want to withdraw and deal on my own. I don't think her running away was nearly as bad as it was made out to be. Shame on all her friends!

Pretty good intro to Faith in this episode and revealed both her brashness and her insecurities. Average episode.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

IF she had let them know she was alive, then yes. But to leave your friends and family not knowing? That's cruel.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S3E4 Beauty and the Beasts

Too bad they killed off 


Spoiler



the school counselor


I always thought that would have been a good character to keep around.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

hummingbird_206 said:


> S3E4 Beauty and the Beasts
> 
> Too bad they killed off
> 
> ...





Spoiler



They did bring the position back, much later...


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Something I've always wondered was when Faith started slayer training.

I always thought it was weird that Kendra grew up with a Watcher. I guess she was a "potential" (gag, always hated that concept) and they knew that, so they trained her just in case. But I can't imagine that's how Faith grew up. So that means that she wasn't called until Kendra died and at most she had four to five months of slayer action before going to Sunnydale. Right? Am I missing something in the timeline or training? I'm failing to see how she had all those adventures in a couple months.

Also, when a new slayer is called, wouldn't someone at the Watcher's Council ring Giles? Maybe give him a head's up?

And if you can identify potential slayers (gag), why wouldn't you trail all of the immediately from a young age? (Ok, I guess it puts them at risk before they have their power...but then why Kendra?)

Maybe these are unanswerable questions, but curious if others have info or a perspective I've missed.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm not sure about Faith, but I remember Kendra specifically saying that her people believed so strongly in the need for slayers that they trained girls from an early age for it.

And it's not strange that someone from the council didn't call Giles. He's not really one of the council 'cool kids'. After all, they didn't invite him to the meet, so I don't think they keep him in the loop about much.

Just because Faith says she had those adventures doesn't mean she really did. Faith isn't the most trustworthy of people.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

hummingbird_206 said:


> I'm not sure about Faith, but I remember Kendra specifically saying that her people believed so strongly in the need for slayers that they trained girls from an early age for it.


I guess it's just a cultural difference. It still feels weird to me.

S03E04 Beauty and the Beasts - C
S03E05 Homecoming - C

I am struggling with season 3. I remembered liking it a lot more than I do so far. I don't like Willow & Xander cheating. I'd like Angel to get back to normal. At least we finally introduced the mayor. Faith is actually my favorite character so far! She's the only one not been broody. Both the episodes above had good parts and bad parts. Just a lot of meh all around. I'm hoping things pick up soon.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

danterner said:


> She'll be 13 next month, but is wise beyond her years. I'm pretty sure this will be the first "old" series she's watched; I'm curious to hear her reactions to bygone technologies like pagers and pay phones and terminology like "jacking into the net" and Giles' general Luddite attitude.


So it took a little while for the stars to align, but last night we were all in the same room at the same time in the same mood to watch Buffy, so she saw S01E01. The verdict is that she liked it and wants to watch more. She was frustrated that it ended on a "to be continued" cliffhanger. She particularly liked Buffy's character.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Zevida said:


> I guess it's just a cultural difference. It still feels weird to me.
> 
> S03E04 Beauty and the Beasts - C
> S03E05 Homecoming - C
> ...


You are right at the beginning (starting with the next ep, Band Candy) of when S3 gets all awesome-sauce. Out of the 17 episodes left, I would say that at least 14 of them are excellent.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> You are right at the beginning (starting with the next ep, Band Candy) of when S3 gets all awesome-sauce. Out of the 17 episodes left, I would say that at least 14 of them are excellent.


Wow, you're right. I just looked at the Season 3 episode list and everything from Band Candy is pretty darn great.

Seriously, I may have to rewatch S3 now.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Whereas I look at S4 and go 'meh'.

Then back to S5 and a bunch of great ones again.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> You are right at the beginning (starting with the next ep, Band Candy) of when S3 gets all awesome-sauce. Out of the 17 episodes left, I would say that at least 14 of them are excellent.


I hope so! I remember it being much better than it has been so far.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Amends 310

Nice reference from joyce re: band candy.

It annoys me how cavalier people are about inviting vampires in. Holding a crossbow on him is great for right now, but you've just given him an all access pass.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Well, they did figure out how to revoke the invitation, so maybe not so bad.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Yeah, but why not just step outside and talk there? It's southern California, it's not like it's cold.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I've got nothing.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S3E5 Homecoming
I love this ep. Starts out angsty, but I love it after the limo ride. Love pissed off Cordy.

S3E6 Band Candy
I love this ep, too. Giles and Joyce were just too funny.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

312 Helpless 

The overalls are back!


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Robin said:


> 312 Helpless
> 
> The overalls are back!


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S3E7 Revelations
"Faith, a word of advice, you're an idiot"
Not sure that's advice, but I agree with the sentiment.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

S3E8 Lovers Walk
I love Spike. His scenes with Joyce are always great. I hate feeling sorry for Cordy.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

smak said:


> I'm using this one.
> 
> http://www.andrewmcdonald.net.au/my-guide-to-watching-buffy-angel-post-tv/
> 
> -smak-


Can't decide if I'm going to rewatch Angel when I get to Buffy Season 4 or not. Mainly because I'm lazy and not sure I want to keep swapping out the DVDs. Though I do have a second TV and DVD player in my bedroom. Might have to watch Angel in there.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I'm watching on Netflix, no disc swapping!


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Just make sure you watch Buffy then Angel on a single night, just like you would have on the WB in 1999!


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I've watched a bunch, and season 3 is getting better.

S03E06 Band Candy - B
S03E07 Revelations - B
S03E08 Lovers Walk - A
S03E09 The Wish - A
S03E10 Amends - B
S03E11 Gingerbread - B
S03E12 Helpless - A

Band Candy had some funny moments and started to establish the Mayor as a real big bad.

Revelations had some good tension, a character twist, the Angel reveal, more Xandar being a jackass, and a good final battle.

Spike! He elevates every episode and his speech in the Magic Shop was great. Finally Xander and Willow are found out.

Anya arrives and introduces us to a much darker Sunnydale. Vamp Willow, pet Angel, Buffy without a soul, and Giles hoping anything is better than this. I like how this episode highlights that Buffy trying desperately to live a normal life with friends and loved ones is what is her real strength.

Amends I wanted to like a lot more than I did. I almost gave it a C, but it was a pretty good scene between David and Sarah at the end. Oh, and when Angel went to see Giles was also good. But I still think any explanation they attempted for why Angel was back was weak other than they wrote themselves into a corner and had to bring him back for a spin-off show.

Gingerbread was solid.

Helpless was great. Buffy's vulnerability and Giles betrayal, really such good stuff this episode. Oh, except Cordy ruined the scene with Buffy and Giles. Normally her humor is a nice relief, but this time, it was too out of place in such a serious moment.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I love The Wish.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Also, it's been fun seeing how many times Harmony and Jonathon pop up over the first three seasons.

And I keep forgetting to mention Principal Snyder! I was so excited when he was introduced. He cracks me up.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Zevida said:


> And I keep forgetting to mention Principal Snyder! I was so excited when he was introduced. He cracks me up.


You might say that you like him so much you could eat him up...


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S03E13 The Zeppo - A
S03E14 Bad Girls - B
S03E15 Consequences - A
S03E16 Doppelgangland - A

Usually I reserve my A ratings for episodes that pack a real emotional punch and those are usually part of bigger arcs, and as much as I've been hating on Xander, this episode is just too hilarious. From the pacing to the music to the radical shifts in tone between Xander's story and the other story (especially when we shift from Xander to Buffy and Angel's emotional scene), it really is some great film making. Also, fun to see Michael Cudlitz (now starring in Southland).

Bad Girls had some good moments, but I felt my attention wandering. Loved we finally got the Wesley introduction. I don't care for the Faith and Buffy as BFFs story.

Consequences packed some of that good emotional punch. I forgot how far Faith took things with Xander. Good work all around.

Doppelgangland is similar to The Zeppo in that the hilarity and radical shifts in tone are so great that for what is basically a standalone it really is a memorable one in the canon.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

As I watched I wondered how much of this violence in a school they could get away with now. Buffy and Angel reenact a shooting in a school. Xander diffuses a bomb in a school. We know that "Earshot" had to be postponed due to school violence around its air date.

I don't watch any other supernatural teen shows or movies to know how much violence they have in schools. I don't think you could do that now, but I wonder if they are and I'm just not watching.

It's amusing watching Cordelia and Wesley fawn at each other knowing how those characters develop.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Zevida said:


> Band Candy had some funny moments and started to establish the Mayor as a real big bad.


Buffy's double take in Band Candy is one of the funniest moments in the series.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Consequences - one of my favorites.

Willow: "I don't need to say 'oh', I got there already."

Then her crying in the restroom. Breaks my heart every time.  Cemented my undying devotion to Alyson Hannigan.


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I am so far behind on my rewatch. Weather here has been sunny (though cold) and I've been getting out a lot to enjoy the sunshine.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Finished Buffy season three. Started season 4 and watched the Angel premiere too. 

I think I remember why I never got into Angel. This whole "save the sad pretty girl" stuff is dull. Is there a point it gets more away from this and towards demon fighting? I watched off and on in later seasons and I think it gets there eventually. Maybe?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Zevida said:


> Is there a point it gets more away from this and towards demon fighting? I watched off and on in later seasons and I think it gets there eventually. Maybe?


Sure, lots of demon fighting in Angel. I think Angel is the better show actually.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm way behind on my reviews.

Finished Season 2.

S0217 Enemies - A
S0218 Earshot - B
S0219 Choices - B
S0220 The Prom - A
S0221 Graduation Day: Part 1 - A
S0222 Graduation Day: Part 2 - B

Season 2 - A

I was probably a little generous on some of those grades because I don't remember them so clearly.  Enemies has some nice surprises and good emotional impact. Earshot - wow! Xander makes a joke about how doesn't everyone dream of shooting up the school with an AK47 (or something like that). You sure couldn't say that on TV today. Choices was good but not great. The Prom has some of the worst make-up and costume jobs ever on those hellhounds but gets a big fat A for Jonathan's speech which makes me cry every damn time. Graduation Day I preferred the emotion and tension of the first half along with the Buffy and Faith fight. The second half had some good moments, but it wasn't as powerful as the first IMO.

I wasn't sure about a final grade for season 3. I almost thought I should go B because it is not as good as season 2, but knowing what's coming the rest of the show, this season deserves an A too.

And now underway with season 4.

S04E01 The Freshman - C
S04E02 Living Conditions - C
S04E03 The Harsh Light of Day - B
S04E04 Fear, Itself - B

Once again we start the season with Buffy feeling isolated from her friends. I don't really like episodes where the Scoobies aren't getting along and Buffy is feeling weak. The next episode just annoys me that yet again (a regular issue throughout the series), the Scoobies don't believe they slayer and she turns out to be right. Things pick up a little bit in the Harsh Light of Day, because how could it not with Spike back. Add in Harmony, some good Xander and Anya action, and it elevates itself over crappy Parker. Fear, Itself is a pretty good Halloween episode with a funny climax.

I was going to try to watch Angel too, but I really don't like that pilot at all. Not sure I want to bother.

Also, I never got all the hate for Riley. I loved him and was really bummed when he left the show. He's smart, kind and handsome.


----------



## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

Zevida said:


> Also, I never got all the hate for Riley. I loved him and was really bummed when he left the show. He's smart, kind and handsome.


I thought he was boring. And he wasn't Angel.

The episode where Angel kicks his ass is one of my faves. I could watch that scene over and over.



Spoiler



The Yoko Factor. "You never train with me anymore. He's going to kick your ass."


----------



## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

john4200 said:


> Sure, lots of demon fighting in Angel. I think Angel is the better show actually.


Significantly better, in my estimation. (At least for a few seasons...) Angel had a more complex, adult feel to the stories. Part of that may be the female lead being Charisma's Cordy. Cordy had a adult aura, while Gellar's Buffy always seemed too child-like and very much the waif, in my opinion.

Plus, Angel's stories tended to be darker and less innocent than the Sunnydale plots. While both had quite a few moments of humor, the humor in Angel wa often a very nice suprise, giving the viewer some tension relief.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I can't believe that I forgot all about Harmony.

Riley was like a mayonnaise on white bread sandwich.


----------



## Eddief66 (Oct 24, 2009)

cheesesteak said:


> I can't believe that I forgot all about Harmony.


One of my favorite quotes is about her. It's from a future episode so I used spoilers.



Spoiler



Harmony has minions?


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S04E05 Beer Bad - C
S04E06 Wild at Heart - B
S04E07 The Initiative - B
S04E08 Pangs - A

Beer Bad wasn't as terrible as I remember. Not good, not bad. Wild I Heart I hate because I don't like that Oz left, but Alyson does some pretty great emoting and it was a good episode in spite of my dislike for the storyline. The Initiative was a fun reveal and had Spike back and we found out he's neutered. Riley bumbling around Buffy was entertaining. The Xander and Harmony fight was awesome. After Becoming Part 1, where Angel drinks Buffy, and then this episode where Spike tries to drink Willow, the vampire sucking blood = sex metaphor is firmly established, if it wasn't already.

Pangs I just love. Maybe it doesn't deserve an A, but Spike's dialog in this episode is so fantastic, I can't give it just a B. Really, just all the dialog throughout the episode. Giles and Willow fighting over the ethics of colonization was great. Buffy freaking out about being the perfect host and how to kill without killing the spirit. I really enjoy watching this episode.

I might switch back now and give Angel another shot, try to watch through the full first season and see if it hooks me.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Zevida said:


> I might switch back now and give Angel another shot, try to watch through the full first season and see if it hooks me.


If you're not hooked by episode 9 of Season 1, then I'm not convinced that the show is for you.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

JYoung said:


> If you're not hooked by episode 9 of Season 1, then I'm not convinced that the show is for you.


That's the episode that made me stop watching during the original airing.



Spoiler



I was really not happy they killed Doyle, so I stopped watching. Now that I know it happens, maybe I'll make it past that. I thought I saw the episode when Wesley arrived, and that comes after. I don't think I saw much else of season 1.


----------



## Ozzie72 (Aug 9, 2008)

Zevida, keep going with Angel. I think you will appreciate it more and more as it goes on.

I tend to agree with others here that, on the whole, Angel was a "better" series than Buffy. By that I mean that it spent less time on monster-of-the-week episodes before spinning out the complex, overarching, character-driven storylines that Joss Whedon does so well. I think it really fired on all cylinders for 4 of its 5 seasons, with the occasional clunker ep like all series have.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ozzie72 said:


> I tend to agree with others here that, on the whole, Angel was a "better" series than Buffy. By that I mean that it spent less time on monster-of-the-week episodes before spinning out the complex, overarching, character-driven storylines that Joss Whedon does so well. I think it really fired on all cylinders for 4 of its 5 seasons, with the occasional clunker ep like all series have.


And a show of this type is defined by the quality of its bad guys. It is just tough to top a multi-national, ahem, multi-dimensional Evil with a capital 'E' law firm as the primary antagonist.

About Cordelia in the last season:


Spoiler



I think it could have kept going for another few seasons if they had not had to mostly write Cordelia out.


----------



## Ozzie72 (Aug 9, 2008)

john4200 said:


> And a show of this type is defined by the quality of its bad guys. It is just tough to top a multi-national, ahem, multi-dimensional Evil with a capital 'E' law firm as the primary antagonist.


I've joked with my best friend the lawyer that he needs to hang a shingle under the "Wolfram & Hart" name and see what kind of business he drums up. He, not being a fan, doesn't see the appeal. 

I like to think that W&H was the trial run for the Alliance / Hands of Blue we saw in _Firefly_.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm behind again! I need to start reviewing each night. This season especially, the episodes blend together. 

S04E09 Something Blue - A
S04E10 Hush - A
S04E11 Doomed - C
S04E12 A New Man - B
S04E13 The I in Team - C
S04E14 Goodbye, Iowa - C

I enjoyed Something Blue because blind Giles and Buffy and Spike engaged are just too funny. And Alyson does some great acting in this one, poor Willow. Hush is one of the best of the show. The Gentlemen might be the best demon ever on the show. Amazing effects, make-up and costume and the music in this episode is incredible. The best of Buffy. 

The three more Initiative-centric episodes get average grades. They weren't terrible, they weren't great. As I'm rewatching this season I think it has many episodes and stories that are some of the best of the show, but because the Initiative and Adam are some of the lesser big bads of the show, the season as a whole is downgraded. I'm enjoying it more than I thought and I know some good episodes are coming up. 

A New Man deals with Giles' isolation from the group and changing dynamic post Sunnydale High. And of course we get Ethan back. I want to give this an A, but its not quite there. 

Oh, the only downside to Hush is it introduces my least favorite character - Tara. With the shyness and the stammering and the ducking her head so her hair hides her, she's the exact opposite of the Scoobies, which I guess is good for variety for the writers, but man I found her dull and boring.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I've only made it through two episodes of Angel. I just don't have any interest in watching...maybe once I finish season five of Buffy. Or after the Buffy episodes with Faith, watch the Angel ones.


----------



## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

Zevida said:


> I've only made it through two episodes of Angel. I just don't have any interest in watching...maybe once I finish season five of Buffy. Or after the Buffy episodes with Faith, watch the Angel ones.


Maybe _Angel _just isn't for you.

I found my interest in _Buffy _waned after its first 3 seasons, with Charisma heading over to the new _Angel _series. So I suppose it's just as possible that _Angel _might not be a _Buffy _fan's cuppa.

Of course, the first two eps hardly set the stage for any big bad yet.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Especially comparing season 4 of Buffy to season 1 of Angel, there is a marked difference in format. Angel season 1 is highly Case-of-the-Week, with only some sprinkle of onware story towards the end. Maybe they are best watched separately.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

When I started Buffy, I started mid season 2. I went back and watched season 1 eventually and loved it too because I love the characters. 

I think if I jump ahead in Angel and try when the stories and characters are more developed that will help some.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

I was looking at the Angel episodes. You could skip ahead to ep 18/19, which feature Faith. Then the last three start to ramp up the continuing storyline. And 20 introduces a new series regular.

Interesting note. I see that Howard Gordon (24, Homeland) wrote several season 1 episodes. And Shawn Ryan (Shield, Terriers) wrote several season 2 episodes. Cool.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S04E15 This Year's Girl - B
S04E16 Who are You? - A

Im torn on which episode I like better. I liked the dream sequences and the great Faith/Buffy fight at Buffy's house in the first. The second had some great acting by Sarah and some quite good, uncomfortable scenes. And the first glimpse of a possible road to redemption by Faith. I don't think it was worth two As, so but which gets the B was a toss up. 

Billy, that's exactly what I was thinking. I'll follow Faith over to Angel. I watched the third episode of Angel tonight. It had Spike so it couldn't be all bad, but it was still too L&O: Special Victims Unit for me.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

I'm still way back in season 2.

One thing I'm surprised by is how bad the prints are that they used for the DVDs. There are several scenes with debris hanging over an edge of the frame... not to mention, there is a huge amount of film grain visible. I don't recall a TV show with prints that look this bad.

Case in point, Buffy's over-the-shoulder shot in "Innocence" in Angel's residence... there is a very obvious bit of debris in the upper right corner of the frame.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm watching on Netflix and I was surprised when the aspect ratio switched to 16:9 in season 4. I had thought the musical in season 6 was the only 16:9 episode.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Zevida said:


> I'm watching on Netflix and I was surprised when the aspect ratio switched to 16:9 in season 4. I had thought the musical in season 6 was the only 16:9 episode.


It _was_ the only 16:9 episode. 

Wait... Buffy , or Angel? Buffy was 1:33 throughout. Angel switched to 1:78 in season 3. (Although some season 2 sets are in 1:78, they were not framed that way. Viewing them that way exposes production issues like characters appearing in mirrors that shouldn't, and characters appearing in frame before they should.)

Edit: seasons 4-7 of Buffy are available in 1:78 in some regions, but were never intended to be viewed that way, for the same reason as Angel season 2. See: http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Buffy-Vampire-Slayer/414. Looks like Netflix somehow may have digitized the UK region episodes.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

So if they were intended for 4:3, why were they filmed 16:9? Or, have television shows always been filmed 16:9 and just framed for and cut to 4:3 for viewing on TV?

In any case, I like it. I've not noticed anything that shouldn't be there or looks awkward. Season four also looks terrific via streaming. Very high quality.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Oh, and while I'm here (see, I said I have no life!):

S04E17 Superstar - B
S04E18 Where the Wild Things Are - C
S04E19 New Moon Rising - B
S04E20 The Yoko Factor - C

I remembered Superstar as better than it was I think. It is a fun standalone and I appreciate the funny parts, but it wasn't an A episode. Where the Wild Things are had some nice Xander and Anya growth moments, but was just too silly a premise. New Moon Rising got me all choked up. I'm so sad Oz left. I was madder about it the first time around, and I still don't like Tara, but this time I was ready for it. It should probably get an A, it was quite good. 

The Yoko Factor I don't like. I hate it when the Scoobies fight. But Spike was entertaining. And the Buffy/Riley/Angel triangle had some entertaining moments.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Zevida said:


> In any case, I like it. I've not noticed anything that shouldn't be there or looks awkward.


Well, this essay has a couple of visual examples of things that are suddenly visible that shouldn't be.

But beyond that, even if if visually looks correct, and there isn't any unfortunate production equipment visible, the simple fact is that in many shots, the characters are blocked to convey a specific look or feel, which would be totally altered from what the cinematographer intended if the aspect ratio is altered.

The best example of this is in the episode "The Body." There is a scene with Buffy and a paramedic. In the commentary, Joss describes the scene thusly: "It's an over (over the shoulder shot) where I squeezed her in the frame as much as possible. It's just like she didn't have room to maneuver. &#8230; A normal over would have been her with a tiny slice of his shoulder; instead, I let his shoulder own the frame. I took his eyes out of the frame. To show her experience of, literally, being trapped, being blocked off from reality." When the scene is altered from 4:3 to 16:9, that feeling of "being trapped" is totally gone, because there is suddenly open space next to Buffy.

I stole the above quote from this page that makes the same point, and also provides another rather comical example of an unintentional production gaffe suddenly visible when the show is viewed in 1:78.



> So if they were intended for 4:3, why were they filmed 16:9? Or, have television shows always been filmed 16:9 and just framed for and cut to 4:3 for viewing on TV?


Quite often, the latter, particularly for anything shot to film (vs. video tape).


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Interesting. I never knew they filmed in anything but 4:3. I'll have to watch for the examples they gave and see if I notice them.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LoadStar said:


> I stole the above quote from this page that makes the same point, and also provides another rather comical example of an unintentional production gaffe suddenly visible when the show is viewed in 1:78.


Thanks for the link. That picture is hilarious:


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Zevida said:


> Interesting. I never knew they filmed in anything but 4:3. I'll have to watch for the examples they gave and see if I notice them.


I assume it's cheaper for them to use cameras and film stock that's the same as movies rather than having to invest in "narrowscreen" tv specific camera & film. (Economies of scale and/or reusing existing material)


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## SleepyBob (Sep 28, 2000)

Just finished season 1. Good enough to keep watching for another season, but pretty cheesy at times. Can't stand the vampire makeup. I swear Buffy keeps killing the same one over and over.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

SleepyBob said:


> Just finished season 1. Good enough to keep watching for another season, but pretty cheesy at times. Can't stand the vampire makeup. I swear Buffy keeps killing the same one over and over.


Glad you're liking it! It definitely gets better in season 2!

I always find it funny that sidekick vampires stay in vamp face all the time, even when just hanging out. I guess not worth the time to go from nor,al to vamp for them.


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

Re: the 4:3 conversion, here's a helpful image from AVS forums showing an actual TNG film frame with the 4:3 TV frame marked (click to enlarge).

[media]http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/605/sttngframegroundglass.jpg[/media]

The inner box is the TV frame, and is considerably smaller than the film frame. I'm not sure what the historical reason for this is, but it's how TV is framed on 35mm film.

The obvious solution is to take a bigger bite out of the frame, but since the director "knew" that nothing outside the TV frame was going to show up, you end up with studio equipment, underwear  etc. in the 16:9 frame.

The other problem is that the TV frame is to the right of center, so using the full frame width unbalances the composition of the shot, like in "The Body" example. In the sample here, the crosshairs are right on Picard's nose. He'd be off center if you used the full width of the frame.

So the answer is, no, TV shows have not been shot as 16:9 all along. They were shot as 4:3 with the understanding that there'd be unused area on the film that the viewers would never see.

In my not so humble opinion, 4:3 should stay 4:3. People that don't like it can use the stretch or zoom options.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

alansh said:


> So the answer is, no, TV shows have not been shot as 16:9 all along. They were shot as 4:3 with the understanding that there'd be unused area on the film that the viewers would never see.
> 
> In my not so humble opinion, 4:3 should stay 4:3. People that don't like it can use the stretch or zoom options.


Well, they were shot with the ability to have 16:9, but framed to 4:3, just not intended to be 16:9. That's what I meant, I had assumed that they had to use 4:3. I never really thought about the film being larger than the frame.

I have no problem watching in the original 4:3. It is funny when I googled the issue and read comments from people in the early aughts, they were all *****ing and moaning about how widescreen sucks and they'd never have a widescreen TV. 

The only gaffes I've noticed so far is dialog when the mouth isn't moving - the character steps what would be just off screen in 4:3, but their face or mouth can still be seen in 16:9, then the character speaks a line but never opens their mouth. So far it's not bad enough to be annoying.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Zevida said:


> Well, they were shot with the ability to have 16:9, but framed to 4:3, just not intended to be 16:9. That's what I meant, I had assumed that they had to use 4:3. I never really thought about the film being larger than the frame.
> 
> I have no problem watching in the original 4:3. It is funny when I googled the issue and read comments from people in the early aughts, they were all *****ing and moaning about how widescreen sucks and they'd never have a widescreen TV.


Then there was babylon 5; which they attempted to frame for 4:3 _and_ 16:9. (Some directors/episodes pulled it off better than others).

The idea was that they would be able to redo the CGI (which should be cheap to rerender on future faster computers) and release it widescreen even though it was originally aired in 4:3. Unfortunatly by the time they got around to releasing the (widescreen only) DVDs, they'd lost the CGI files so all the special effect and space combat were the original 4:3 renders with strips along the top and bottom masked off. (So you got less onscreen widescreen than fullscreen )

That plus the occasional misframed wide shot makes me wish they had a fullscreen version of the DVDs. Oh well, it was a great experiment; just not perfectly executed.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Ozzie72 said:


> Zevida, keep going with Angel. I think you will appreciate it more and more as it goes on.
> 
> I tend to agree with others here that, on the whole, Angel was a "better" series than Buffy. By that I mean that it spent less time on monster-of-the-week episodes before spinning out the complex, overarching, character-driven storylines that Joss Whedon does so well. I think it really fired on all cylinders for 4 of its 5 seasons, with the occasional clunker ep like all series have.


I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that _Angel_ was overall a better series than _Buffy_ - in fact, after a drink or two I might consider them fightin' words  - but I will admit that back when Buffy S6/Angel S3 and Buffy S7/Angel S4 were airing, more times than not the Buffy episode paled in comparison to the Angel episode.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that _Angel_ was overall a better series than _Buffy_ - in fact, after a drink or two I might consider them fightin' words  - but I will admit that back when Buffy S6/Angel S3 and Buffy S7/Angel S4 were airing, more times than not the Buffy episode paled in comparison to the Angel episode.


If you were to make a combined season chart, the best seasons of Buffy may eclipse the best of Angel, but the average for a season of Angel is probably better than the avg for Buffy. Seasons 1 and 7 really drag down Buffy (in my book at least).


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I agree with you about S1, but I liked S7 on the whole. Well, most of it. And most importantly, they stuck the landing with the finale. But there were chunks of S6 (basically, the entire middle third, which was ended by the gorgeous mindf--k that was 6.17 "Normal Again") that I really detested, while at the same the Angel episodes were really, really good. And S7 had a few rough spots as well in middle third.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Season 7 was for me by far and away the worst season of them all. Not even a close competition. When most times I usually say even a bad episode of a Joss Whedon show is better than virtually everything on TV... I thought virtually all of season 7 was simply bad TV. I'll be curious to see if that impression holds true.

I thought season 7 suffered from several critical flaws:
1) Joss Whedon had handed over control to Marti Noxon, and was more of an "executive producer" than an active one. Marti was great in early seasons as a script editor, but I don't know that she truly had a good grasp of what really made the show, or to be honest, how to run a good show. I don't think she does now either, as proven by her lack of any truly successful show since.
2) The "big bad" they chose was a bad mistake on multiple levels.
3) The "little bad" was poorly cast. It was simply charity casting from Joss. I think the actor is great in certain roles, but I just don't think that the role Joss created for him was right for him.
4) There was a distinct sense that there was a totally abrupt change in tone and direction for the season from the one they originally had conceived before the season started.
5) There were simply too many characters, most of which were poorly developed, that distracted from the main cast.

I could go on and on, but it was simply a bad season IMO. Now, that said, these were my impressions from the first watch - I don't think I've seen any of that season since it originally aired. I'll be curious to see if my impression changes on a rewatch.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

LoadStar said:


> I could go on and on, but it was simply a bad season IMO. Now, that said, these were my impressions from the first watch - I don't think I've seen any of that season since it originally aired. I'll be curious to see if my impression changes on a rewatch.


I agree with everything you said. Season 7 sucked. I especially hated the whole idea of "potentials" and that really soured me on the whole thing, along with the pity casting (which Whedon did in both Buffy and Angel), which threw things off and introduced one of the worst Buffy villains ever.

I also haven't seen any of it since the first airing. I'd been considering stopping my rewatch at the end of season 5, a perfect ending where I wish the series had stopped. But I'm curious enough about some of the season 6 episodes that I want to watch, and if I get through all of season 6, maybe I'll slog through season 7...


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

The idea that was described going into season 7 was "back to the beginning," and there was a definite suggestion that we were going to get sort of the formation of a "Scrappy Gang" around Dawn at the newly rebuilt Sunnydale High. I would have been very much on board with that.

My idea for a replacement season 7: I would retain episodes 1-6 of season 7. Around season 7, I'd introduce a "little bad" of some sort that would cause Faith to return. Somewhere around episode 10, they'd face off against and defeat the little bad, but Faith falls in the battle. Given that the monks made Dawn from Buffy, with Faith falling, Dawn becomes the next Slayer. Giles then returns with news from the Watchers' Council that Buffy will be Dawn's watcher, but that Giles will remain in Sunnydale for a while to serve as watcher, while Buffy gets up to speed.

Somewhere about this point, while training as a watcher, Buffy encounters a prophecy in one of Giles' long forgotten books that doesn't predict who the big bad is, but it does indicate what would be required to defeat him: destroying the Hellmouth itself. The latter half of the season develop Dawn and her friends as critical to the plan to defeat the big bad and destroying the hellmouth.

I would completely lose the Potentials from the season, as well as the idea of "the first" as the big bad.

Edit: ooooh... the new Sunnydale High principal would be the little bad... and the *school itself* could be the big bad. They end up determining that the school itself is like a lens that sort of focuses all the mystical evil in the hellmouth. And the only way to defeat the school and save the earth is to destroy both the school and the hellmouth itself, ensuring that the school is never rebuilt. Mmm... I like that.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

What Loadstar and Zevida said. I can't even rewatch season 7 at this point.

And don't get me started on the afterschool special middle section of season 6. Magic is drugs, we get it. I liked the end of the season a lot, but wish they could have figured out a different way to get there.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S04E21 Primeval - B
S04E22 Restless - A

I enjoyed the very end of Primeval, when the Scoobies all joined and Buffy gained the strength of first slayer. That part of the battle between her and Adam was pretty great. I also liked Spike fighting the demons. Pretty good.

Restless I did not appreciate during the original run. It was a pretty big WTF to me back then. I'm older, more mature, and wiser, and this watching, I loved it. The symbolism, foreshadowing, and cinematography were all spectacular. (Even in 16:9 .) One of the standout episodes of the show that really demonstrates this really isn't Twilight.

Season 4 - B

So far I'm 2 As (2 & 3) ad 2 Bs (1 & 4) on seasons. That seems about right to me. Season 4 had some standalone great episodes, but the season arc was weaker and packed less emotional punch than the two previous seasons. I think I liked season 4 better on a binge viewing rewatch than I did in the original watch. Binge viewing allows you to forgive the weak episodes more because you can quickly get to a good episode rather than waiting a week or more and stewing on the sub-par episode. At the end of the original airing, I probably would have given season 4 a C.

Now because I'm a geek, I have to start a pivot for my ratings. I'm pretty sure I've only given one D, if that many, so my rating scale for episodes is really only A, B or C. 

S05E01 Buffy vs. Dracula - C

Some funny moments, a good scene at the end with Buffy and Giles, and a total mindf*ck at the very end, but I still feel just meh about this one.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

If I was going to rank the seasons off the cuff so far, I'd rank them 2, 3, 4, 1. 

But if I calculate based on average episode grade I've given, it would go 3, 2, 4, 1. Season 3 I have at 80% A or B, while season 2 is only 68% A or B.

I'm such a nerd.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Zevida said:


> If I was going to rank the seasons off the cuff so far, I'd rank them 2, 3, 4, 1.
> 
> But if I calculate based on average episode grade I've given, it would go 3, 2, 4, 1. Season 3 I have at 80% A or B, while season 2 is only 68% A or B.
> 
> I'm such a nerd.


I believe what you're seeing is that the overall quality of season 3 was superior, but the emotional punch of the last half of season 2 just overwhelms everything else when you consider ranking them. I do exactly the same thing, because when I first watched season 2 I was just crushed at the end. So perfect. I don't think anything matches the emotional resonance of that ending, other than perhaps The Body.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Totally agree about S3 being stronger on the whole, but at the same time, the final 1/3 or so of S2 is so devastatingly powerful that it lingers longer.

As for S7, I had similar feelings when I watched it the first time, but I found that on a binge rewatch it worked a lot better for me (as did S6 - Buffy's seemingly endless moping is not quite as arduous when it's over in a matter of hours, as opposed to a month or more. )

I really liked the Potentials in concept (not so much in execution), and I found that montage in the finale (after Willow does her thing) where all of the potentials world-wide receive their abilities to be incredibly moving. I don't think I've done a re-watch since my daughter was born (she's now almost 7), but I'm sure it would affect me even more now.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I'd rank the seasons as follows:

2/3
5

4 (some great eps, but I didn't find Adam very compelling as a Big Bad)


7 (the finale moves it ahead of S6 for me)
6 (just too mopey, although some fantastic stand-alones)

1 (barely watchable, but worth it for the nostalgia factor)


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I'd rank the seasons as follows:
> 
> 2/3
> 5
> ...


Ha. As someone who was semi-obsessed with the Friday the 13th syndicated series back in the late 80's, I find the first season to be quite enjoyable.

Of course it can't attain the heights of later seasons, but the beginnings of Whedon wit are definitely present through all the episodes.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

I guess I don't understand the dislike of season 1. *shrug* I thought it was a nice, well paced, short season, and very enjoyable. The tone was a nice mix of light and dark. Yes, from a production aspect, Joss still has some growing up and learning to do, but it was far from "barely watchable" for me.

I also don't get the love of the series finale. Frankly, the season 3 and season 5 finales WAY outshine the series finale. It's not even a close competition for me. In fact, there were moments of the series finale I'd call corny or even cringe-worthy. (It didn't help that the "big bad" was so lame that I didn't care who won or lost.)


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

LoadStar said:


> I also don't get the love of the series finale. Frankly, the season 3 and season 5 finales WAY outshine the series finale. It's not even a close competition for me. In fact, there were moments of the series finale I'd call corny or even cringe-worthy. (It didn't help that the "big bad" was so lame that I didn't care who won or lost.)


I agree with that. I could not believe how bad the final fight scenes were. Cringe-worthy is being kind.

And if I recall, they trivialized the whole thing afterwards by saying there was another hellmouth in Cleveland. Although I suppose you could argue that that was only a joke. But in the context, it did not seem like a joke.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

But the Cleveland Hellmouth was referenced way earlier in the series.

Without going off to research, I want to say it was mentioned as far back as Season 1 and in Season 3 when Faith showed up.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Did they actually reference a hellmouth there or is it just where the other Buffy ends up?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JYoung said:


> But the Cleveland Hellmouth was referenced way earlier in the series.


So it was not a joke.

Like I said, trivialized the whole thing.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

The other hellmouth in Cleveland was referred to in "The Wish" (S3) and then again in the finale ("Chosen"). In "The Wish" it was where the Wishverse Buffy was "stationed" (since Cordy's wish was that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale), and Giles said it was a known demonic hotbed or something similar.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

john4200 said:


> So it was not a joke.
> 
> Like I said, trivialized the whole thing.


I don't think it trivilialized anything. It wasn't as if Buffy had removed evil from the world or anything by derailing the First's plans to unleash the Uruk'hai (or whatever the uber-Vamps were called). Heck, it wasn't even the first time she had averted an apocalypse. That was basically an annual event.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Right, they destroyed the hellmouth, but it took like 20 slayers and a superspell to do it and even then they would have failed except for the magic amulet that showed up at the last minute and a vampire with a soul to give his life.

And then they just casually mention that there is another hellmouth in Cleveland.

So their apparently epic victory was worth very little. They may have to pull it off again in a few years. Except in Cleveland. Ouch.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

LoadStar said:


> I guess I don't understand the dislike of season 1. *shrug* I thought it was a nice, well paced, short season, and very enjoyable. The tone was a nice mix of light and dark. Yes, from a production aspect, Joss still has some growing up and learning to do, but it was far from "barely watchable" for me.


Ditto! I hadn't rewatched it in a long time and based on the comments early in this thread I thought it was be awful, but I found it quite enjoyable. The dialog is as sharp as ever right from the beginning. The production values were pretty bad and some of the stories were not that good. On the other hand, the first season standalone episodes had more of an X-Files feel to them, which I quite appreciated being an X-Files fan.

I barely remember the series finale, so will have to wait to comment on that.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

john4200 said:


> So their apparently epic victory was worth very little. They may have to pull it off again in a few years. Except in Cleveland. Ouch.


This is a theme that Joss has revisited several times. It's even more prevalent in _Angel_.

"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

If nothing the characters do matters, then anything they do is quite trivial. By definition.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Tell that to Joss.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S05E02 Real Me - B
S05E03 The Replacement - A
S05E04 Out of My Mind - C

Pretty strong start to season 5. I liked the new perspective shown in Real Me, though it was a bit of a misdirection to have Dawn's narration say things like "they don't know the real me" as if to imply Dawn has insight into what's happening. As a big sister, I could empathize a little with Buffy. 

The Replacement is another Xander-centric episode and while not as good as The Zeppo, it's still a pretty fun episode. Of course, the final scene with Xander and Riley just crushes me.

Out of My Mind makes me sad, about Joyce, and it's not a great Riley episode, even though I like him more than most, he's far from perfect. But, the Spike stuff, as usual, elevates this episode. Actually, I was going to give it a B but I think it's just C level.


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Tell that to Joss.


Viewers _have_.

His TV series may have dedicated cult followings, but none were true hits with the public.

I for one eventually tired of his incessant misdirection and gotchas, with hard fought victories being nothing more than a trivial nothing, because something even worse was coming.

In a two hour movie, the climatic victory jubilation turning into dread that more evil is coming, well, that may be neat storytelling. But in a TV series, that sort of ending _time after time _is exhausting.

I am of the opinion that Joss could never really attract droves of viewers, beyond the cult following that we were part of, because his shows tended to be depressing, despite the humor.

He wrote witty dialog. He had terrific surprises. And I enjoyed his series overall, _Dollhouse _notwithstanding. [shudder]

But when nothing you do matters, then eventually viewers begin to wonder why am I watching what they do?

And ratings reflected that.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

That's a load of crap. One of the best things about the Whedonverse is the season long 'Big Bad' that is defeated in the end. None of this endless stringing the viewer along that never actually amounts to anything. None of the 'shady organization' that is pulling the strings behind every moment for years and years and years. A bad guy, a story, an end.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

And it's funny how much the tv landscape has changed, since Buffy's 5 million viewers a week would be considered a huge hit by the CW and even a modest success on some of the other networks.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S05E05 No Place Like Home - C
S05E06 Family - B
S05E07 Fool for Love - B
S05E08 Shadow - D

I feeling less love for season 5 than I remember having, but I went through the same thing with season 3, so it might fade. I think the problem right now is that many of the episode have poor episode content and are focused on moving along the larger story. And the Joyce stuff is just depressing. I don't remember The Body being so far along in the season and I'm not looking forward to that dragging on.

No Place Like Home introduced Glory, which is awesome, but otherwise was kind of meh. And the big reveal about Dawn, finally, now Buffy can stop being such a jerk to her.

Family I liked more this time around. I think generally I'm just less annoyed by Tara. (I was devastated when Willow picked Tara over Oz and just never moved beyond that.) I even got a little teary-eyed when they all stood up for her.

Fool for Love I was tempted to give an A, but I really don't like Angel in flashbacks or Darla.

Shadow was just a boring, angsty episode. I think knowing what's coming is making me have less patience. I liked Riley much more last time, he's starting to annoy me this season. I'd like him to get over himself already. I'm pretty close to that being over at least. Interestingly, I'm also annoyed at how Buffy is treating him. I think they could have worked, but it was just the wrong time for them. Buffy is right to want to focus on her family. Riley is right to want to not be shut out. Time to move on.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Did you watch Fool for Love along with the corresponding Angel episode Darla? The combination of the two is excellent.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I realized I hadn't finished my thought about that episode. I don't like Darla and, generally, the flashbacks of Angel's past. I did not watch the Angel companion episode.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Zevida said:


> I realized I hadn't finished my thought about that episode. I don't like Darla and, generally, the flashbacks of Angel's past. I did not watch the Angel companion episode.


The companion episode shows the same flashbacks but from Darla's point of view. I love the flashbacks, and seeing them from two different perspectives was brilliant.

BTW, I'm enjoying your reviews. Although there are a few eps I've watched multiple times, I only watched the entire series once through. It's great to relive the series through your reviews. :up:


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

jehma said:


> BTW, I'm enjoying your reviews. Although there are a few eps I've watched multiple times, I only watched the entire series once through. It's great to relive the series through your reviews. :up:


Thanks! I'm glad someone likes them. :up:

S05E09 Listening to Fear - D
S05E10 Into the Woods - C
S05E11 Triangle - B
S05E12 Checkpoint - B
S05E13 Blood Ties - B
S05E14 Crush - B

More than any of the previous seasons, this season is defined by the season long arc. Many of the episodes have single-episode stories that are pretty weak and the episodes really serve to move the arc along. Rather than living their lives with the danger lurking in the shadow, this season, the danger is front and center every episode. It's more serious and adult. In some ways it's good, but I miss the wit and lightness.

Listening to Fear just sucked. Into the Wood was an ok send-off for Riley. I wish they hadn't sent Buffy after him at the end, just let her realize that she couldn't give him what he wanted. After those two, we got into a nice set. I think it also helps that Joyce is out of the hospital at this point.

Triangle had the fun dialog and more lighthearted tone I'e been missing. Checkpoint brought back the Watcher's Council and had a nice triumphant moment for Buffy over them. Dawn discovering she is the key in Blood Ties was also handled well, just like a 14 year old would react, and featured our first full Scoobies vs. Glory battle. Finally, Crush puts Spike and his multiple love interests front and center for some fun hijinks.

I did watch a the first three episodes of season two of Angel. I liked them better than I did season one, so I'll probably keep going with them. I wanted to try to catch-up on Angel to where I am on Buffy, but I want to know what happens on Buffy. I mean, I know what happens, have even been reading Wikipedia to remind myself what happens to some characters, but it's different to experience it.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I finally had time to finish season 3. I loved this season. I'll miss the Mayor. He was a pretty entertaining big bad. 

I'll probably start watching Angel now, too. So little time, so many TV shows to watch.

Oh, and who was the pity casting?


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

hummingbird_206 said:


> I finally had time to finish season 3. I loved this season. I'll miss the Mayor. He was a pretty entertaining big bad.
> 
> I'll probably start watching Angel now, too. So little time, so many TV shows to watch.
> 
> Oh, and who was the pity casting?


Nathan Fillion on Buffy, and both Adam Baldwin and Gina Torres on Angel.

IMO, Nathan was the more egregious of the three.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

LoadStar said:


> Nathan Fillion on Buffy, and both Adam Baldwin and Gina Torres on Angel.
> 
> IMO, Nathan was the more egregious of the three.


Thanks. I don't remember the Angel characters, but do remember Nathan on Buffy. I hated the character, but I don't think any other actor could have done it any better.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

LoadStar said:


> Nathan Fillion on Buffy, and both Adam Baldwin and Gina Torres on Angel.
> 
> IMO, Nathan was the more egregious of the three.


Gina Torres was great on Angel, so I'm not sure I'd call it pity casting.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

billypritchard said:


> Gina Torres was great on Angel, so I'm not sure I'd call it pity casting.


My memory is a bit hazy, but I remember actively disliking that whole plotline. I seem to recall that it was rather unplanned because Charisma, with rather little notice, decided to leave the show. (Edit: I do see several references to her being fired, so I don't know.)


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I didn't particularly like the Caleb character, but I thought Nathan did fine with the role. Not sure who else could have done better.

And Gina and Adam were very good on _Angel_, I thought. Adam especially so.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I didn't particularly like the Caleb character, but I thought Nathan did fine with the role. Not sure who else could have done better.


The character was pretty good; Fillion's performance, however, was dreadful.

The concept of the character was supposed to be this folksy, charming, rural/southern preacher who reveals himself to be completely creepy and twisted. I never got that folksy, rural vibe from him... he sort of did this weird southern accent, but it was just awful.


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

LoadStar said:


> My memory is a bit hazy, but I remember actively disliking that whole plotline. I seem to recall that it was rather unplanned because Charisma, with rather little notice, decided to leave the show. (Edit: I do see several references to her being fired, so I don't know.)


Nope. She didn't quit.

Charisma got pregnant with her son, Donovan. Charisma's pregnancy apparently conflicted with Joss' initial plot outlines,


Spoiler



as I read that initially SHE was to be the season's BIG BAD. So he wrote her in a role that became less and less physical, until he had a story reason to have her in a coma.



To her surprise, she was not brought back the next season., which is one reason why I thought it suffered.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I stalled out on Buffy. I have one more episode and then the Body and I'm not sure I'm ready for that one yet. I've been putting it off. 

Instead, I've been ripping through Angel season 2. Even though I don't like Darla, I'm still quite entertained. It is much better than season 1. I'm about episode 16 or 17.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Also, Lindsey is so much hotter since he cut his hair mid season 2. Yum!



Spoiler



I hope he comes back.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

The Body, is that the one where 


Spoiler



Joyce dies?


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Zevida said:


> Also, Lindsey is so much hotter since he cut his hair mid season 2. Yum!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



He may or may not.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

hummingbird_206 said:


> The Body, is that the one where
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Yes.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Zevida said:


> I stalled out on Buffy. I have one more episode and then the Body and I'm not sure I'm ready for that one yet. I've been putting it off.


I don't blame you. The Body is a tough rewatch. I've only done it once, and that was with the commentary on, so the impact was dulled a little.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm back from vacation, so starting up again!

I finished up Angel season 2 before getting into Buffy. The Pylea storyline is definitely the best of what I saw of Angel when I watched it off and on originally. A bunch of great episodes there. I can see why people would start to think that Angel was better than Buffy at that point, it was certainly much more fun than the last four episodes of Buffy season 5. But it is hard to compare, as Buffy is still very good, it is just very heavy. I would definitely not consider Angel to be darker when you look at these two arcs side-by-side.

S05E15 I Was Made to Love You - C
S05E17 Forever - C
S05E18 Intervention - B
S05E19 Tough Love - B

Yep, I skipped The Body. I was getting ready to eat dinner and just couldn't stomach watching it at that point. I will probably go back. Maybe have a nice double-header sucker punch ad watch it after The Gift.

I Was Made to Love You serves better as a lot of set-up for plots down the road than it does as a single episode, but it's ok. Forever is probably better than I give it credit for, but the idea of messed up zombie Joyce freaks me out.

Intervention, well who doesn't love the Buffybot, and I liked Buffy's desert quest. Tough Love had some really good emotional scenes with Buffy and Dawn and then Tara and Willow.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Yesterday was:

S05E20 - Spiral - D
S05E21 - The Weight of the World - B

The crusaders on the horses was just too ridiculous. Generally I didn't much care for this episode that could have been completely dropped with Glory just nabbing Dawn at Tara's. The episode after was better because of the Willow and Buffy scenes. Getting inside Buffy's mind and how she felt was good. 

Today I had the sob-fest.

S05E22 The Gift - A
S05E16 The Body - A

The Gift is not a perfect episode, but is a perfect ending to the show (almost too bad it wasn't) and a perfect final three minutes. I sobbed, like gasping for breath sobbed, even though I knew what was coming. Maybe because I knew what was coming. Getting to finally watch Buffy wallop Glory wasn't too bad either. And since I was already sobbing, it was a good time to watch The Body. Again, not perfect, but so well done and stark, deserves the A.

Season 5 as a whole I didn't like nearly as much as watching the first time through. The season is quite a downer compared to previous seasons. There is much less wit and joy, it is so much more serious. I think watching not knowing what is going to happen you are more wrapped up in the suspense. But knowing the ending, the lack of suspense just left me with a lot of bummer episodes.

I read (maybe in this thread? or on wikipedia?) that Dawn was Buffy's love interest this season. Maybe so, but Dawn sucked. Unlike in season 2, where we felt the pain of Angel's turn and Buffy's suffering, we were given no reason to like Dawn. She was just the typical whiny little sister. I wasn't as invested in caring about her.

I bet it will end up ranking pretty high once I average my episode scores, but as a whole it just left me feeling not great. Great work at times, but really depressing.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Another thought on season 5 overall is that I never really liked how they changed Anya's character. In season 3 and season 4, she was blunt and forward while still being a real person, but in season 5, she's practically a robot. She goes from being someone just figuring out how to be around other people again to someone who doesn't know how to do anything. They magnified 10x all of the qualities that made her good for laughs, but I think they lost a complex, interesting character in the process. (It's similar to what they did with Ross on Friends, took a geeky, lovable goofball and magnified everything so he became a shrieking, hate-worthy goofpsycho.)

I started Angel season 3, but I think I'm going to finish out Buffy, then go back to Angel. I don't want to switch back-and-forth a single episode at a time, and if I watch a few in a row of one show, I get wrapped up and don't want to switch off.

Also, does anyone like Darla. Man I cannot stand her character. Is she a fan favorite and I'm the weird one? Her voice, her acting, her lines, everything is just the worst.

S06E01 Bargaining Part 1 - C
S06E02 Bargaining Part 2 - C
S06E03 After Life - C
S06E04 Flooded - B
S06E05 Life Serial - B
S06E06 All the Way - B
S06E07 Once More, with Feeling - A

The season starts out dark, dank and depressing, just like the second half of season 5. Whoever dressed Buffy for her funeral should be shot as she came out of her grave looking like the girl in The Ring. 

But, in the fourth and fifth episodes we get back to a little bit of the fun and wit we've been missing for quiet a while. Buffy vs. the Mummy hand is classic. I like the intro of the Trio as competent, yet absurd. I like All the Way, even though it's a lot about Dawn, because of the misdirection with the old guy and getting back to vampire roots.

The musical I loved. I haven't seen it in a few years. My favorite is the Anya and Xander number, for the lyrics and the dancing. The climactic number (Buffy in the Bronze) was a little weak and disappointing, but all in all it was a good episode to move along a number of storylines and bring some fun and emotion back into the show.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

1) Yes, there are Darla fans. I generally think she is excellent and really enjoyed her parts. She's vital to understanding Angel.

2) One issue I have now with OMWF is that Xander/Anya dance. It's awesome, I love it, but it foreshadows such a STUPID direction the show goes that I can't fully like it anymore.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

billypritchard said:


> 2) One issue I have now with OMWF is that Xander/Anya dance. It's awesome, I love it, but it foreshadows such a STUPID direction the show goes that I can't fully like it anymore.


I've already given an upcoming episode an F and I haven't even rewatched it yet. I was/ am very unhappy with how things went with these two.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm all alone, but I'm not going to let that stop me!

S06E08 Tabula Rasa - B
S06E09 Smashed - C
S06E10 Wrecked - C
S06E11 Gone - C
S06E12 Doublemeat Palace - C

Tabula Rasa I thought I'd like a little more than I did, but the funny they developed when they were all together no knowing who they were didn't pay-off because they were all apart when they got their memories back. It was definitely a strong episode, but not A quality.

The next four had really fluctuating quality. I'm not a fan of the after-school special nature of some of these. In fact, it's a little disturbing in some ways how the Scoobies are barely upset with what Willow's been doing. I guess they address that a bit.

Of them, I think I liked Gone the best, because it showed Willow really working on a mystery and had a nice moment with Buffy and Dawn, but I did not care for Buffy acting like a thirteen-year-old boy just because she was invisible. Her hair is adorable though.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

More data analysis!

I compiled my episode ratings and the average was 3.59, which is the lowest of all the seasons! The next lowest is season 1 at 3.67. Season 5 has the most number of D episodes at 3. It was dominated by B episodes, with 10. 

From a qualitative perspective, season 4 was helped on a rewatch and season 5 was hurt. Season 4 had lowered expectations, knowing going in it wasn't as strong as 2 & 3 allowed me to appreciate what was good. But Season 5 suffered from knowing what would happen - the dark, depressing tone lacked any suspense and just sucked the fun out of season.

At halfway through, season 6 is averaging 3.50, so falling in just behind season 5. So it is:

3
2
4
1
5

Based on averaging the episode rankings.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

I think season 5 was my favorite behind season 2. It had some missteps, but it actually solidified my life long fandom of serialized storytelling. All of the seasons had serialized elements, but something about S5 just worked on that level for me. I liked Glory as a villain, and how everything escalated slowly and then just exploded in the back half of the seasons. And I thought The Gift was the best finale they did (behind season 2). It had all the right stuff - epic stakes, huge battle, and the sacrifice of the hero. I was still riding high on the show so I probably would have lost my mind if it ended there, but looking back that would have been an awesome last episode. I'm glad we got the other two seasons though.

The Body remains one of the best episodes of _any _show, in my opinion. It still blows my mind that Joss Whedon didn't at least get a writing nod for that. Awards shows avoid genre shows like the plague, but the episode was legit by any standards (and they nominated him for writing "Hush" the year before so it's not like they're completely against it). I'm sure my connection to the episode stems from the fact that Joyce looked like my mom, and my mom died of a ruptured anyerism (sp), but whatevs. I thought it was extremely well done. I also loved the way the prior episode, which was light and not that intricate, ended with Buffy finding her mom. Pure genius. No one saw that s*** coming.

As for season six, it was definitely darker, but I got where they were going with it. That was the _point_. In the scope of the characters lives, that was their darkest period. Sure it was depressing to watch, but from a storytelling perspective, it was a smart direction to explore. The twist that Buffy was actually in heaven and was ripped out of it was one of those things that just made you feel like you got punched in the gut, lol. When she's explaining it to Spike you're just like DAMN.

I was also a fan of the musical episode. Not really a musical fan, but as a wanna-be writer, and a fan of Joss Whedon, it was kind of awesome because it was a dream of his and he got to fulfill it. And I thought they did a sick job considering it's not what they do. The story started building from 6.1 and all these different things just came to a head in the musical in a way that elevated it from a gimmick to something worthy of the show.

The rest of season six was kind of "meh", but I loved the last five or six episodes, and the season finale villain.

Ok I'm done.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Zevida said:


> I'm all alone, but I'm not going to let that stop me!


I'm still reading along, I just haven't had time to watch any eps for the last few weeks! Your reviews are interesting and make me want to get back to it, but that's probably not going to happen any time soon. But I'm glad you're still going!


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Same here!


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## swizzlest (Sep 13, 2003)

I hated Season 6 when it first aired. HATED it. F- for most episodes. It caused me to stop watching the show.

I caught Season 7 a couple years later on FX, went back and watches Season 6 and it all clicked.

It taught me...NEVER doubt Joss Whedon. NEVER. 

That's my only contribution...I had to wait until you all got up to Season 6, though.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

swizzlest said:


> I hated Season 6 when it first aired. HATED it. F- for most episodes. It caused me to stop watching the show.
> 
> I caught Season 7 a couple years later on FX, went back and watches Season 6 and it all clicked.
> 
> ...


LOL. I didn't hate Season 6 when it first aired, but I didn't love it either, and I think I'm in the same boat as I was then. I understand what they are doing - that doesn't mean I have to think it is fun to watch or that I think it was a good direction for the show.

It will be interesting to see if I soften to season 7 any, as I really hated most of it during the original airing and haven't watched any of it since.

On season 5, I agree with MrDazzo that it was the most serial of all the seasons, but it was just too dark for me in a show that I liked because of the wit and fun.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Since I have a bit of an audience, anyone want to chat about the inconsistencies in moral rules of the Buffyverse?

Early in Buffy, it was pretty clear that demon and vampire = evil. Angel was astounding as a rare exception - vampire with a soul.

But as you get further in Buffy, you have demons that are not evil. They are neutral, or even helpful to the cause of good.

Then, you introduce Spike with a chip. He falls in love with Buffy and eventually seeks his own soul. How can an evil being that has no soul decide to want to have a soul. If he makes that decision, doesn't that mean he actually does have a soul all along? How can he love a human, fight for good, and decide he wants to be good without a soul?

Both Buffy and Angel have very clear rules that it is ok to kill a demon, but not ok to kill a human. Yet both shows have very clear examples of demons that are good and exemplary and humans that are evil terrible. What makes a demon who is a sentient, intelligent being ok to kill but not a human? Is this a fair line to draw? Did they just not think about it and decide to have the rules fit whatever story they wanted to right?


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Zevida said:


> LOL. I didn't hate Season 6 when it first aired, but I didn't love it either, and I think I'm in the same boat as I was then. I understand what they are doing - that doesn't mean I have to think it is fun to watch or that I think it was a good direction for the show.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if I soften to season 7 any, as I really hated most of it during the original airing and haven't watched any of it since.
> 
> On season 5, I agree with MrDazzo that it was the most serial of all the seasons, but it was just too dark for me in a show that I liked because of the wit and fun.


I'll be interested to read your grades of Season 7. I have pretty similar feelings as yours, and have never ventured back that way since they aired.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S06E13 Dead Things - C
S06E14 Older and Far Away - B
S06E15 As You Were - C
S06E16 Hell's Bells - F
S06E17 Normal Again - A
S06E18 Entropy - B

Dead Things was average, but key to moving along the Trio development. Older and Far Away I had enough that I liked to bump up to a B. I'm a big Riley fan, so I liked him coming back, but it wasn't a strong episode. 

The next, well, it's my only F (so far) and that's a totally emotional grade. It was actually a pretty good episode up until the very end and Xander's final decision. It could have been salvaged as a happy episode, but they had to go for the kill instead. 

Normal Again I love. I love the mess with reality. Strong performances and a great twist on the whole series. Entropy was a good fallout from the wedding episode. 

I'll probably finish the season tonight.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Zevida said:


> Since I have a bit of an audience, anyone want to chat about the inconsistencies in moral rules of the Buffyverse?


I never liked the stated rules of killing demon = okay, killing human = wrong. Far too simplistic. Why not judge beings based on their actions (and perhaps somewhat on their intentions, if they can be determined reliably), as most people in real life do?


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I never liked the stated rules of killing demon = okay, killing human = wrong. Far too simplistic. Why not judge beings based on their actions (and perhaps somewhat on their intentions, if they can be determined reliably), as most people in real life do?


They ended up addressing this in both Buffy and Angel around the time I was complaining about it. In Buffy it was in the context of Willow killing Warren and Dawn basically saying who cares he deserved it and they kill bad guys all the time. Buffy's argument was that we have rules and law to take care of that for humans. But I'd argue that any human using magic or superpowers is not going to be able to be handled by the police - Faith, Warren, Willow, etc. Same for the lawyers at Wolfram & Hart - it's not like you can go to the police with "they hired a psychic to torture my friend through her visions." I think it would be fair to take care of them yourself.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S06E19 Seeing Red - B
S06E20 Villains - C
S06E21 Two to Go - C
S06E22 Grave - C

I just don't love how this season ended. I'm probably being too hard on it, but I just didn't like Dark Willow as an antagonist. I didn't think she was all that interesting, which is odd, since Vampire Willow was so much fun. But Dark Willow wasn't fun. It was just depressing. There were some moments I liked - Giles showing up, Xander at the end, Dawn showing she's got moves, but it was just a bit flat for me. It was another season finale of Buffy running around not knowing what to do and being completely ineffective against her foe. Not fun. (And we just get more of this next season...)

After finishing Buffy season 6 I went back and blew through Angel season 3. I won't say that in totality Angel is a better show, but as Buffy was faltering in its final seasons, Angel was finally picking up steam. Side-by-side, Angel season 3 was definitely better than Buffy season 6. But even still, the emotional highs and lows never get to me in Angel, like they do in Buffy. Even knowing what happens in Buffy, I sobbed through several episodes. Angel's never even gotten a watery eye out of me.

I also apparently watched more of Angel than I thought, as I remembered many of the episodes as I watched them. But there were also big things I didn't remember at all - like Justine. I think I liked season 3 better than season 2 - I didn't care for the dark Angel and too much Darla in season 2. I loved Groo coming back, hated that he left. Feel really sad for Wesley. I'd asked earlier about if Angel and Cordy ever got together and they got close here - were on their way to tell each other "I love you" when Angel was sunk to the bottom of the ocean and Cordy ascended. Glad we dodged that bullet.

I'll be switching back to Buffy and watching season 7 (gulp) next.

For those who've watched all of Angel, how would you rank the seasons? I still have never been able to watch all of season 1, the show got so much better in season 2 and in season 3 with the full crew (Lorne, Fred, Gunn).


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Oh, and I definitely don't think Spike went to the cave looking for he soul. Or if he did, they did a terrible job with that. I know they wanted us to think he went there to get his chip removed, and that makes the most sense. He said about a dozen times "make me what I was" and there is zero way that can be interpreted to mean "give me a soul and make me a vampire with a soul which is something I've never been before ever."


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Zevida said:


> Oh, and I definitely don't think Spike went to the cave looking for he soul. Or if he did, they did a terrible job with that. I know they wanted us to think he went there to get his chip removed, and that makes the most sense. He said about a dozen times "make me what I was" and there is zero way that can be interpreted to mean "give me a soul and make me a vampire with a soul which is something I've never been before ever."


... unless you interpret it "Make me what I was [before I became a vampire]" in which case restoring his soul makes sense.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

LoadStar said:


> ... unless you interpret it "Make me what I was [before I became a vampire]" in which case restoring his soul makes sense.


No, then making him a human would have made sense.

Also, it was dumb because you'd think something that important he'd be pretty explicit. The writers phrased it that way so it would surprise the viewers, but it was a fail all around IMO.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S07E01 Lessons - B

This season is off to a great start. No mopey, *****y, whiny, "I died" or "I killed my boyfriend" or "I'm lonely" or "I died again" Buffy. We get a nice mystery at the beginning - who was that girl and why did they kill her? We get Sunnydale High back! Dawn gets her own set of Scoobies. Buffy gets a job at the school. Spike is crazy. All in all, it set things up really well. 


...
...




.......


(Man, wtf happened. This season had so much potential. Pun not intended. )


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Zevida said:


> S07E01 Lessons - B
> 
> This season is off to a great start. No mopey, *****y, whiny, "I died" or "I killed my boyfriend" or "I'm lonely" or "I died again" Buffy. We get a nice mystery at the beginning - who was that girl and why did they kill her? We get Sunnydale High back! Dawn gets her own set of Scoobies. Buffy gets a job at the school. Spike is crazy. All in all, it set things up really well.
> 
> ...


I think this episode was a giant FU to the fans who wanted something like this (new scoobies, Sunnydale High, etc...). It's a pull the rug out start to the season. 'Oh, you think you want it like this? Ha, good luck with that!'

But my dislike of the whole season may be clouding my judgement.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

billypritchard said:


> I think this episode was a giant FU to the fans who wanted something like this (new scoobies, Sunnydale High, etc...). It's a pull the rug out start to the season. 'Oh, you think you want it like this? Ha, good luck with that!'
> 
> But my dislike of the whole season may be clouding my judgement.


LOL. I think that's a fair assessment. Recalling what is coming, it feels like they decided to radically change direction at some point. Either they did a bad job setting it up, or they did change direction. The season actually starts out pretty well.

S07E02 Beneath You - C
S07E03 Same Time, Same Place - B

Beneath You made me struggle with the same morality issues that bothered me in later seasons. Anya is a demon. She is causing harm to people. But Buffy doesn't try to kill her. Why? Because they know her? They know she'll cause harm again. If she's a demon, doesn't that mean it's ok to take her out. Anyway, this episode started out as a nice mystery of the week, but flattened out when we realized it was Anya, so not a mystery or baddie to fight.

Same Time, Same Place is a very good episode, almost A worthy. If I was grading on a curve for this season, it would definitely be an A. There's humor, a great, creepy villain, and some emotional punch.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

billypritchard said:


> I think this episode was a giant FU to the fans who wanted something like this (new scoobies, Sunnydale High, etc...). It's a pull the rug out start to the season. 'Oh, you think you want it like this? Ha, good luck with that!'


Well, I rather strongly recall them doing interviews that promised exactly that - "Back to the beginning" was going to be the theme of the season. But yeah, there was a sharp left turn right around episode 7 or 8, and it felt like they threw all of that straight out the window.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

LoadStar said:


> Well, I rather strongly recall them doing interviews that promised exactly that - "Back to the beginning" was going to be the theme of the season. But yeah, there was a sharp left turn right around episode 7 or 8, and it felt like they threw all of that straight out the window.


Considering those 'friends' of Dawn's don't appear again, did it really take until episode 7 or 8? Or am I misremembering?

I recall a good episode around maybe 6, right before it went all downhill.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

LoadStar said:


> Well, I rather strongly recall them doing interviews that promised exactly that - "Back to the beginning" was going to be the theme of the season. But yeah, there was a sharp left turn right around episode 7 or 8, and it felt like they threw all of that straight out the window.


The did go back to the beginning, they just went too far. The First Evil and all. (right?)



billypritchard said:


> Considering those 'friends' of Dawn's don't appear again, did it really take until episode 7 or 8? Or am I misremembering?
> 
> I recall a good episode around maybe 6, right before it went all downhill.


Conversations with Dead People is episode 7 I think and that I recall as being one that is highly regarded. The next episode is when the potential slayer concept is introduced and that's when it all goes to pot.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I've always suspected that what happened was that there was a master plan that got changed when Geller decided that she didn't want to continue after Season 7.

I'm also reminded of another forum I lurked at when Season 7 started airing, there was a group over there that hated Season 6 so much that when the first episode of Season 7 aired and didn't meet their expectations, they started writing their own "alternative Season 7" of Buffy.

And it was awful. I made it about six "episodes" in before I couldn't take it anymore.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Zevida said:


> Conversations with Dead People is episode 7 I think and that I recall as being one that is highly regarded. The next episode is when the potential slayer concept is introduced and that's when it all goes to pot.


{pedantic}
Actually the "potential slayer" concept was introduced with Kendra, as she had been trained from a little girl as she had been identified as being in line soon after birth.
{/pedantic}


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

JYoung said:


> {pedantic}
> Actually the "potential slayer" concept was introduced with Kendra, as she had been trained from a little girl as she had been identified as being in line soon after birth.
> {/pedantic}


I brought that up earlier in the thread as something that was glossed over by the show and completely inconsistent with the context of the show so far and made no sense. I don't think they introduced it purposefully with this in mind. I think they made a mistake with Kendra then said, oh hey, now we can change the entire meaning of what it is to be a Slayer.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Alright. I actually slept on this before being willing to come in here and give these grades. But I just have to.

S07E04 Help - A
S07E05 Selfless - A

Well, I just loved these two episodes. The themes. The performances. How they fit into the world of Buffy. I want to hate season 7, and I'm pretty sure that's coming, but it really started off with some excellent work.

Help is a powerful reminder that you can't stop everything. It has a great mix of fun (the intro), campy (the high schoolers raising the demon), the serious (Willow visiting Tara's grave) and the poignant (Cassie). It's a real call-back episode to the first three seasons being so focused on the school. I really love Cassie the character and the actress who plays her. This one was a home run for me.

Selfless is such a well done episode cinematically, I love some of the cuts it makes, from a flashback of her singing to Anya against the wall seemingly dead with a sword in her chest. The filters on the scenes of Anya when she was Aud to make it look old was great. Anya singing again was great. The fight with Buffy was great. The ending was so fitting and it really did make me teary-eyed. Despite not liking that they ended up in this place (Xander and Anya broken up and Anya a demon), this episode was a fantastic tribute to Anya's character and the most important episode in her character arc.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S07E06 Him - B
S07E07 Conversations with Dead People - A
S07E08 Sleeper - C
S07E09 Never Leave Me - C
S07E10 Bring on the Night - D

Despite being a repeated plot device (and acknowledged with a flashback clip), I found Him to be quite entertaining. Especially Buffy and Spike fighting in the background as Wood worked at his desk. 

Conversations with Dead People was great. Definitely the best episode of the season. Flipping between Buffy, Dawn, Willow and Andrew really showed how each character is looking for their place. It was especially touching when Andrew asked Jonathan if they'd really be able to join the Scooby gang. 

And with that, we have hit the high point of the season. 

Sleeper was ok, but I'm getting tired of crazy Spike. Same with Never Leave Me. Neither have a strong individual story and neither move the arc along significantly. 

And then Bring on the Night brings on the suck. The first three sucky potentials show up. Just what we needed, more teenage girls. And Buffy fights and is pummeled by the uber vampire, because that's what we like, seeing our hero meet yet np another foe she cannot defeat (the Mayor, Adam, Glory, Willow). I hate seeing Buffy get beat to sh*t and her speech at the end isn't inspiring, it's just stupid.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

S07E11 Showtime - C
S07E12 Potential - B

Showtime was meh. More of Buffy getting her butt kicked by the ubervamp and more potentials being whiny pains in the rear. At least Buffy finally killed the ubervamp at the end. The death match was marginally cool.

Potential is more of the same but gets bumped up to a B because of the very poignant moment between Xander and Dawn at the end that got me teary-eyed. That was great. Otherwise, I don't really understand why Dawn can't train anymore just because she's not a potential. Buffy was training her at the start of the season. Stupid, and makes Buffy look like the worst sister ever.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

And, I'm done! I finished the second half of season 7 in a binge this weekend. Ostensibly I was supposed to be packing for my upcoming move while I was watching, but I watched 9 episodes today and packed 1/2 of 1 box. 

The net is that I disliked season 7 less than I expected. In fact, I came close to almost liking it. I think the binge viewing helped tremendously. There was no time to dwell on the parts that sucked. There were also no expectations, I thought it was going to be terrible, so it had a pretty low bar to meet. It is still not the way I wish the season had gone, but I gotta watch what they made and I enjoyed myself.

S07E13 The Killer in Me - D
S07E14 First Date - C
S07E15 Get it Done - B
S07E16 Storyteller - B
S07E17 Lies My Parents Told Me - B
S07E18 Dirty Girls - C
S07E19 Empty Places - C
S07E20 Touched - C
S07E21 End of Days - B
S07E22 Chosen - A

I'm not sure I have enough to talk about each episode individually. I did not like Kennedy or care so much about when Willow turned into Warren - why did Amy do that to her? They never even resolved that.

I like Andrew's development and appreciated that he was added for comic relief.

I liked Buffy in this season so much more than in season 5 or 6, where she was dark, dour and dreary the whole time. Even with the weight of the world on her shoulders, she was quippy, brave, inspirational, and fun. Back to Buffy! Generally I liked anything that involved Buffy being right and having a triumph, which happened a couple times in the last two episodes.

I loved Angel showing up, providing some help, then leaving. Their final scene actually made me cry. I'm such a sap. Though I do get a little mad at Angel - he's had plenty of chances to be with Buffy and he always chooses to give it up so what right does he have to hope she still pines for him. Bah. Those two! They drive me crazy.

Wood being son of a slayer I had forgotten - but was an interesting story and a nice way to finally get rid of Spike's chain that the First could pull, though it happened too late in the season.

I thought the finale was fitting, as much as I hate the potential slayers, who annoyed me all season, and as much as I hate that the ubervamps, who Buffy could barely kill one in ten minutes, are being dusted left and right by a bunch of untrained newbie slayers, it just hit all the right notes for me: Angel, Spike's redemption, Faith fighting alongside, Dawn standing up for herself, the Scoobies once again fighting in the halls of Sunnydale High. Well, it just worked and I cried at the end.

I'm going to miss this show all over again! I might go back and just watch the set of episodes I rated A. Well, after I finish Angel.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Yeah, that was my reaction to S7 on the whole, especially after I re-watched it. The speechifying by Buffy was less bothersome, and I really thought they stuck the landing with the finale (besides the aforementioned sudden vulnerability on the part of the Uber-vamps).


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Angel season 4 wasn't great. Connor was terrible. Evil possessed Cordy was terrible. Jasmine was terrible. There wasn't a whole lot redeeming. I guess they did a good enough job with the cliffhangers to keep me watching and I do like Wes, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne. 

Season five so far is Bizarro Angel. I don't know what the writers were thinking.

I definitely think the peak of the show was mid season 2 through season 3. No way it's better than Buffy. Maybe better at that time than Buffy season 6. But not even close comparing the shows overall. 

It is pretty fun to watch episodes of Mad Men after watching Vincent on Angel. The character Connor might have sucked, but he's a good actor!


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

Zevida said:


> Angel season 4 wasn't great. Connor was terrible. Evil possessed Cordy was terrible. Jasmine was terrible. There wasn't a whole lot redeeming. I guess they did a good enough job with the cliffhangers to keep me watching and I do like Wes, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne.
> 
> Season five so far is Bizarro Angel. I don't know what the writers were thinking.
> 
> ...


Season 4 and 5 of Angel I think were the worst. Season 4-Cordy was uneven, and was not her usual self. Of course, we do find out why.

Season 5 of Angel, sans Cordy, was just awful. I thought Angel and his merry band had no place within Wolfram & Hart. The group lost whatever family vibe they once had, and without the sly wit of Cordelia, each character grew dour and selfish.

Season 5 was impossible to take seriously, with so many of the plots being just downright mind-numbingly stupid.

Still, I'd agree that seasons 2 & 3 were the series best. However, where I _differ _from your assessment, I feet Angel seasons 2 & 3 did a great job of giving the viewers a better story arc and more intriguing characters than Buffy could.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Zevida said:


> I thought the finale was fitting, as much as I hate the potential slayers, who annoyed me all season, and as much as I hate that the ubervamps, who Buffy could barely kill one in ten minutes, are being dusted left and right by a *bunch of untrained newbie slayers*, it just hit all the right notes for me: Angel, Spike's redemption, Faith fighting alongside, Dawn standing up for herself, the Scoobies once again fighting in the halls of Sunnydale High. Well, it just worked and I cried at the end.


Just to note, they may be newbies, but not totally untrained. That was most of the point of gathering them at Buffy's house, so they COULD be trained, IIRC, and we even saw a bit of it.

The scene I loved was Buffy distributing the Slayer powers to all the potentials, and it showed even some that weren't there being empowered.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

MikeCC said:


> Season 4 and 5 of Angel I think were the worst. Season 4-Cordy was uneven, and was not her usual self. Of course, we do find out why.
> 
> Season 5 of Angel, sans Cordy, was just awful. I thought Angel and his merry band had no place within Wolfram & Hart. The group lost whatever family vibe they once had, and without the sly wit of Cordelia, each character grew dour and selfish.
> 
> ...


The Cordy progression is definitely debatable in the Angel discussion. The icky Cordy/Connor storyline was definitely a low point, but Season 4 has some excellent parts.

Season 5 had its ups and downs due to the change in structure, but there are many memorable parts to the arc of each character. Dour and Selfish is a good way to put it, but of course what could they expect working for W&H?


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

MikeCC said:


> However, where I _differ _from your assessment, I feet Angel seasons 2 & 3 did a great job of giving the viewers a better story arc and more intriguing characters than Buffy could.


For me, nothing in Angel has ever had the emotional punch of anything in Buffy. I think a lot of it has to do with Buffy featuring younger characters, so you watched them through growing pains of life and the ups and downs of turning into adults, while on Angel, they were adult and though there was some character growth (mostly for Cordelia) there was nothing so dramatic.

And the things in Angel that are drama are not as relatable - boohoo, Angel the champion who is a vampire with a soul is so depressed he sleeps with his ex-girlfriend vampire to try and lose his soul. Well, it's an interesting story, but it's not emotionally stirring. In my opinion of course. (Compare with Buffy sleeping with her boyfriend, who turns into a monster after is a relatable metaphor.)



Peter000 said:


> The scene I loved was Buffy distributing the Slayer powers to all the potentials, and it showed even some that weren't there being empowered.


I actually had a pretty big problem with this. I didn't mind the one Slayer concept so much, but now they've essentially created a class of women that is better than the rest of women - just what gender relations needed. Now you don't just feel bad about being worse than men, now there's a whole new group of women to make you feel bad about yourself.

It would have been much more powerful to show that there is a seed of power in every woman and that they unleashed that for everyone.



billypritchard said:


> Dour and Selfish is a good way to put it, but of course what could they expect working for W&H?


I think that's where the misstep was - they never should have been at W&H. The hotel was such a great set and Angel Investigations had plenty more it could do. Turning it into a show about bureaucracy wasn't a good plan.


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

Zevida said:


> For me, nothing in Angel has ever had the emotional punch of anything in Buffy. I think a lot of it has to do with Buffy featuring younger characters, so you watched them through growing pains of life and the ups and downs of turning into adults, while on Angel, they were adult and though there was some character growth (mostly for Cordelia) there was nothing so dramatic.
> 
> And the things in Angel that are drama are not as relatable - boohoo, Angel the champion who is a vampire with a soul is so depressed he sleeps with his ex-girlfriend vampire to try and lose his soul. Well, it's an interesting story, but it's not emotionally stirring. In my opinion of course. (Compare with Buffy sleeping with her boyfriend, who turns into a monster after is a relatable metaphor.)


Huh. I guess that's where I find _Angel _far more accessible to a wider audience. Buffy sleeps with her boyfriend who turns into a monster. Isn't this a very special _Lifetime _movie?

But, to me, _Angel _wasn't about a vampire and his soul. The underlying theme, for ALL the characters, was redemption: each character was trying very hard to atone for things they did in the past. Angel looking to make up for his Angelus horror is the obvious example. But Cordy, and Gunn, and to lesser extents, Fred and Wesley, all are trying to do good and battle evil, because they realize they were selfish or nasty early in their lives.

Those attempts to atone for prior bad acts seem far more universal than the themes of _Buffy_, which seems to be more female romantic desire. But then, I wasn't a teenage girl. 

I don't know if you have yet to complete season five of Angel. I found more clunkers of eps than decent ones. But _A Cautionary Tale..._, and _Why We Fight_, and _Smile Time _all rate special disdain, in my opinion. I began to suspect hard drugs were running rampant in the writers' room.

Fred's transformation was idiotic. And Angel's assistant Eve was a horrible character: I felt the energy being drained out of every scene she was in. Godawful.

I think you are right that the Wolfram and Hart setting really hurt the series. The behavior of all the characters, once they shifted to the law firm, was unpleasant. Without the family vibe I began to lose interest. They changed from _selfless _champions to _selfish _bastards.

And I didn't want to invite selfish bastards into my home week after week.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

There is no better character journey in the Buffy universe than that of Wesley Wyndham Price. The scoobies on Buffy pretty much (except for I guess Willow) stay the same throughout the 7 seasons. Some growth here, some regression there, but the same main qualities. 

The profound change of Wesley during the baby Connor storyline was the one of the best things done in the Whedonverse.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

MikeCC said:


> Huh. I guess that's where I find _Angel _far more accessible to a wider audience. Buffy sleeps with her boyfriend who turns into a monster. Isn't this a very special _Lifetime _movie?


It probably helps that I'm a girl and the same age as the Scoobies so I identify more with their struggles. I also have not felt like I needed redemption, and I think that's less relatable than much of Buffy. But I respect your analysis and that it's a valid opinion.



> I don't know if you have yet to complete season five of Angel. I found more clunkers of eps than decent ones. But _A Cautionary Tale..._, and _Why We Fight_, and _Smile Time _all rate special disdain, in my opinion. I began to suspect hard drugs were running rampant in the writers' room.


Oh man. Yeah. Smile Time might be the worst Buffyverse episode ever.



> I think you are right that the Wolfram and Hart setting really hurt the series. The behavior of all the characters, once they shifted to the law firm, was unpleasant. Without the family vibe I began to lose interest.


The characters are hollow and wrong this season. Angel has no passion. Gunn should not be a lawyer. Lorne is absent, often getting a throwaway line at the beginning of an episode to explain why he's gone the rest of the time. Amd when he is there, hes emotionless. Fred lost her charm. Wesley stayed the closest to himself but in isolation was dulled.

It felt like the budgets were cut this season as most character missed a whole or most of whole episode here and there.

Overall, it's just been disappointing. I have a few episodes left now.



billypritchard said:


> There is no better character journey in the Buffy universe than that of Wesley Wyndham Price. The scoobies on Buffy pretty much (except for I guess Willow) stay the same throughout the 7 seasons. Some growth here, some regression there, but the same main qualities.
> 
> The profound change of Wesley during the baby Connor storyline was the one of the best things done in the Whedonverse.


His transformation from Buffy season 3 to Ange season 2 is a little unbelievable, but once they established him as a fighter and leader, his development from season 2-4 is excellent.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

MikeCC said:


> Huh. I guess that's where I find _Angel _far more accessible to a wider audience. Buffy sleeps with her boyfriend who turns into a monster. Isn't this a very special _Lifetime _movie?
> 
> But, to me, _Angel _wasn't about a vampire and his soul. The underlying theme, for ALL the characters, was redemption: each character was trying very hard to atone for things they did in the past. Angel looking to make up for his Angelus horror is the obvious example. But Cordy, and Gunn, and to lesser extents, Fred and Wesley, all are trying to do good and battle evil, because they realize they were selfish or nasty early in their lives.
> 
> Those attempts to atone for prior bad acts seem far more universal than the themes of _Buffy_, which seems to be more female romantic desire. But then, I wasn't a teenage girl.


You were never a high school kid who at times thought that high school was hell? That was the central theme of _Buffy_ for the first 3 years (except that was a literal theme and not just a metaphor). I'm a dude too, and was in my mid-20s when the show started, and even though I was well-liked enough in high school such that those years weren't all that traumatic for me, I still found the series plenty accessible. As the series went on, the theme transitioned to more of the struggle do what is right and what is hard versus the desire to live a "normal" life.

In fact, I always found _Buffy_ far more emotionally appealing (and satisfying) than I did _Angel_, even though, as I've said several times, as a whole I preferred _Angel_'s seasons 3 and 4 more than I did _Buffy_'s seasons 6 and 7 when the two were airing consecutively.



MikeCC said:


> I don't know if you have yet to complete season five of Angel. I found more clunkers of eps than decent ones. But _A Cautionary Tale..._, and _Why We Fight_, and _Smile Time _all rate special disdain, in my opinion. I began to suspect hard drugs were running rampant in the writers' room.


Ah, man, I loves me some Smile Time. I laughed harder at that ep than probably any other Buffyverse episode.



MikeCC said:


> Fred's transformation was idiotic.


Now, see, I thought the Fred-to-Illyria transformation was heartbreaking (and also showed off some serious chops on the part of Amy Acker).


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Now, see, I thought the Fred-to-Illyria transformation was heartbreaking (and also showed off some serious chops on the part of Amy Acker).


Agree. I enjoyed both the Fred and the Illyria characters (as well as Amy Acker).


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

The "Fred-to-Illyria" storyline was about the only way they could make Fred anymore special, I guess. After all, the shy girl who was very smart became a medical doctor, their go-to researcher, resident expert on all things physics & chemical & electronic, in fact the expert on pretty much everything. I chuckled more than once during the series, because Fred was a plot contrivance, much like the Star Trek technobabble. Not sure what to do? Have Fred discover or offer some explanation to advance the plot.

God-like Illyria was only step left to the drug-taking writers.


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

> Ah, man, I loves me some Smile Time. I laughed harder at that ep than probably any other Buffyverse episode.


Oh I did, too. I laughed until I had tears streaming down my face.

But my laughter was as I cringed in embarrassment for the cast.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Ah, man, I loves me some Smile Time. I laughed harder at that ep than probably any other Buffyverse episode.
> 
> Now, see, I thought the Fred-to-Illyria transformation was heartbreaking (and also showed off some serious chops on the part of Amy Acker).


Oh, yes on both accounts.

So so funny - James Marsters was fantastic.

Another scene that always makes me laugh is this one.

I'm a huge Spike fan, though.

I think the Fred-to-Illyria transformation was one of the saddest moments in the Whedonverse.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Zevida said:


> It felt like the budgets were cut this season as most character missed a whole or most of whole episode here and there.


They were.
One condition for the fifth season renewal from the network was budget cuts so the show could be made more cheaply.

Another network demand was the addition of Spike so with that and the network telling them they had to cut budgets plays into why Cordelia went bye bye.

However, I still think that the end scene of Not Fade Away is awesome.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Episode 21 of season 5, "Power Play," should have been episode 7 or 8 I the season. It was a great set-up for a season long Big Bad. Missed opportunity.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I thought Not Fade Away was very good, an appropriate end for the show. I thought the build-up was good and the end scene was great. I partly was disappointed that the plan resulted in all of them splitting up so there was no grand fight with them all together. I teared up when Wesley died. 

I didn't like for how they left Lorne's character. It contrasted interestingly with Xander, who was also not a fighter. They gave Xander power in his heart and in his normalness. On the other hand Lorne collapsed in the final season, drifting, without purpose and without use. Instead of anchoring the group as the heart, especially after Fred's death, he became murky. Lorne was a favorite character of mine, shame on the writers for taking all the joy from him.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I don't know why, but I started watching Buffy over the long weekend. I have so much stuff on my DVR and PC to watch, but instead I started watching a 16 year old show.

Oh yeah, I kinda remember why I started watching it. The Buffy movie was on like Cinemax and I watched it. I thought maybe I'd try the TV show to see how it compared.

I don't know that I've ever seen an episode of Buffy before this last weekend. I watched all of season 1 and maybe 10 episodes of season 2. So, I had a little Buffy marathon. 

It is a fun show and I wish I had been watching it when it originally aired. There is some big time cheesiness to the show. Probably more to do with its age. The obvious stuntwoman for Buffy bothers me for some reason.


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## cal_s7 (Oct 1, 2003)

I have not read the rest of this thread. But I started watching them over again a little while ago.

Make sure you watch Angel as well. But do so in the correct order. Story lines crossover on a semi regular basis. I think they stand on their own within each show but its even better when you can see both sides of the store arc as it was intended.

I'm using the list found here.
http://www.andrewmcdonald.net.au/my-guide-to-watching-buffy-angel-post-tv/

Basically its the first 3 seasons of Buffy before Angel starts. Then it alternates between the shows till Buffy is over. The last season of Angel was after Buffy went off the air.

I'm currently a few eps in on Buffy season 5 / Angel season 2.

I remember they were both good when I watched the originals. Now I'm thinking Angel is the better show. But both are very good and worth watching. I can't wait for the last couple seasons of Angel. I remember it was some of the best stuff on TV at the time so I hope I'm remember it right.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Hoffer said:


> I don't know why, but I started watching Buffy over the long weekend. I have so much stuff on my DVR and PC to watch, but instead I started watching a 16 year old show.
> 
> Oh yeah, I kinda remember why I started watching it. The Buffy movie was on like Cinemax and I watched it. I thought maybe I'd try the TV show to see how it compared.
> 
> ...


The stuntwoman will only bug you more as the show goes on. SMG gets thinner and thinner (Hollywood natch) but the stuntwoman stays the same.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

cal_s7 said:


> I have not read the rest of this thread. But I started watching them over again a little while ago.
> 
> Make sure you watch Angel as well. But do so in the correct order. Story lines crossover on a semi regular basis. I think they stand on their own within each show but its even better when you can see both sides of the store arc as it was intended.
> 
> ...


Great, I felt a little defeated that there were so many episodes of Buffy to watch. Made me feel like I'll never get around to watching the whole thing. Now I've got to mix 5 seasons of Angel in there as well!!!


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I liked Angel (the series) but I wouldn't worry about trying to watch it in addition to Buffy. There were a few cross-references and cross overs, but you won't be lost if you skip Angel and just stick with viewing Buffy.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

Boy, I hit a wall last night. I watched a good episode with John Ritter. Then like the next 2 episodes were a 2 parter about Buffy and Angel's relationship. Such a bore. I would fast forward through Smallville during Clark and Lana stuff. I am not interested in that kind of stuff at all.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

dont forget to watch season 8. as much as it sucks, its canon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003WIES46/ref=atv_dp_season?ie=UTF8&redirect=true

the rest of the season is in comic books.


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

Hoffer said:


> Boy, I hit a wall last night. I watched a good episode with John Ritter. Then like the next 2 episodes were a 2 parter about Buffy and Angel's relationship. Such a bore. I would fast forward through Smallville during Clark and Lana stuff. I am not interested in that kind of stuff at all.


Yeah, Buffy & Angel were a yawner for me, too; plus, I felt a little like Angel was a pedophile for his interest in the waifish, very young looking Buffy. Kinda creepy.

Now Angel and _*Cordy*_, OTOH, well... :up:


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

MikeCC said:


> Yeah, Buffy & Angel were a yawner for me, too; plus, I felt a little like Angel was a pedophile for his interest in the waifish, very young looking Buffy. Kinda creepy.


Wasn't Angel about 200 years old? Talk about an age gap!


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

Hoffer said:


> Boy, I hit a wall last night. I watched a good episode with John Ritter. Then like the next 2 episodes were a 2 parter about Buffy and Angel's relationship. Such a bore. I would fast forward through Smallville during Clark and Lana stuff. I am not interested in that kind of stuff at all.


"Surprise" and "Innocence"?

Wow. Never met anyone who didn't put those in their top ten.

Plus, they are the set-up for the rest of the season...


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## Agatha Mystery (Feb 12, 2002)

See, Ted with John Ritter just skeeved me out. I usually skip that one.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I might have liked the John Ritter one because it was John Ritter. Fond memories of him on Three's Company and him dying suddenly and all.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

Lori said:


> "Surprise" and "Innocence"?
> 
> Wow. Never met anyone who didn't put those in their top ten.
> 
> Plus, they are the set-up for the rest of the season...


I made it halfway through Innocence from the looks of it. I just got bored with Angel and Buffy. I'll probably finish it tonight. Maybe by the end I'll be into it more.

I see the actual last episode before those 2 was "Bad Eggs". Where the kids got eggs to take care of like they were infants. Then the eggs turned out to be "bad". I liked that episode too.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Hoffer said:


> Boy, I hit a wall last night. I watched a good episode with John Ritter. Then like the next 2 episodes were a 2 parter about Buffy and Angel's relationship. Such a bore. I would fast forward through Smallville during Clark and Lana stuff. I am not interested in that kind of stuff at all.


I think you should stop right now as I don't think this show is for you.

There is no possibly way you can equate Buffy/Angel with the insipidness of Clark/Lana.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

If you liked Ted and Bad Eggs and were bored by Surprise and Innocence then you are the exact opposite of almost every Buffy fan. It's mind blowing! I don't know what you'll think of the rest of the series. Those two episode you liked were some of the lowest tier of quality for Buffy eps.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

billypritchard said:


> The stuntwoman will only bug you more as the show goes on. SMG gets thinner and thinner (Hollywood natch) but the stuntwoman stays the same.


I never noticed a stunt woman on my original watch and even after someone here commented I never noticed on my rewatch either.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Zevida said:


> I never noticed a stunt woman on my original watch and even after someone here commented I never noticed on my rewatch either.


I never paid it much attention on my original watch. After it was pointed out to me, it became more apparent, but still didn't merit enough attention to bother me at all.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Hoffer said:


> I made it halfway through Innocence from the looks of it. I just got bored with Angel and Buffy. I'll probably finish it tonight. Maybe by the end I'll be into it more.
> 
> I see the actual last episode before those 2 was "Bad Eggs". Where the kids got eggs to take care of like they were infants. Then the eggs turned out to be "bad". I liked that episode too.


I'm a huge Buffy fan, but I hate the Buffy and Angel drama. Too much angst for me. I liked it when Angel went to his own show.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I guess I can handle some lovey dovey stuff. I haven't watched the most recent season of Vampire Diaries, but I never had an issue with that show. Smallville drove me nuts and Buffy/Angel's relationship makes my eyes roll. 

I watched a couple more episodes last night and enjoyed them. I liked the one dealing with the werewolf in particular. Saw one where Buffy and Angel were fighting in catwalks of a burning building. So wanted Buffy to stake him, but obviously that isn't going to happen.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Hoffer said:


> So wanted Buffy to stake him, but obviously that isn't going to happen.


So certain are you?


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I just saw a cool Buffy/Angel interaction. I watched the episode where a student/teacher affair from 1955 and their ghosts were getting people killed. I thought the resolution with Buffy/Angel was pretty cool.


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## MikeCC (Jun 19, 2004)

Hoffer said:


> I just saw a cool Buffy/Angel interaction. I watched the episode where a student/teacher affair from 1955 and their ghosts were getting people killed. I thought the resolution with Buffy/Angel was pretty cool.


If I recall the commentary from the DVD on that ep, that was when people began to realize Boreanaz had the acting chops to be the lead on his own show.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I'm up around episode 10 in season 3 now. Show is definitely getting better during the 3rd season.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I've got just like 3 episodes left in season 3.

Saw a couple good episodes over the weekend. I really liked "Doppelgangland". The one where vampire Willow from another dimension shows up. I loved how they send her back and it just happens to be a split second before she gets staked. 

Buffy and Angel's relationship doesn't bother me anymore. So, that is a good thing I guess. 

Cordelia got really hot after the episode she fell through the stairs and stabbed in the gut by rebar. 

The Mayor may be my favorite character in the show. He is like this dude with really evil ambitions, but he acts so nice.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Hoffer said:


> The Mayor may be my favorite character in the show. He is like this dude with really evil ambitions, but he acts so nice.


Typical politician.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I'm now like 4 episodes into Buffy, The College Years. I'm enjoying the change so far. Loved probably the first ep of season 4 with Buffy's new college roommate. Their whole relationship was pretty great.

I have also been alternating in Angel season 1 episodes. There is not a ton of things that tie between the two, but I have noticed things. Like when Buffy gets a phone call where nobody speaks on the other end. Then you see an episode of Angel where he calls someone, you hear Buffy's voice and Angel hangs up. 

I'm noticing that both Buffy and Angel are 16:9 on my HDTV starting this season. Apple TV still says it is standard def though. I'm curious if they started shooting the show in HD at this time or if this 16:9 image is achieved through cropping??


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Are you watching via Netflix? 

Buffy was framed for 4:3, but the cameras they use actually shoot a 16:9 image. Outside the US, the DVDs were released in 16:9 even though that's not the original aspect ratio. The versions that Netflix has are the 16:9 ones. This means on the right and left of the screen you are seeing more than what was in the original show. It was never shot in HD though.

There are a few times it causes things to be a little off, but unless someone had pointed it out to me and sent me a link to screenshots, I doubt I would have noticed.

I don't recall if Angel was 16:9 from the start but it was eventually.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

Hoffer said:


> I have also been alternating in Angel season 1 episodes. There is not a ton of things that tie between the two, but I have noticed things. Like when Buffy gets a phone call where nobody speaks on the other end. Then you see an episode of Angel where he calls someone, you hear Buffy's voice and Angel hangs up.


since you just started seson 4, watch it in this order in order to get the crossovers timed correctly:

http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2009/04/buffyangel-episode-watching-guide.html


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

Aero 1 said:


> since you just started seson 4, watch it in this order in order to get the crossovers timed correctly:
> 
> http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2009/04/buffyangel-episode-watching-guide.html


That is weird. Someone else posted a different episode watching guide and it is way different than the one you linked to.

Here is the post from above.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9724890#post9724890


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

Zevida said:


> Are you watching via Netflix?


I am watching off Netflix streaming.

The first 3 seasons of Buffy were 4:3 aspect ratio. Season 4 started in 16:9. It was just weird to see it in 16:9, but still be listed as standard def. First season of Angel was 16:9 right off the bat.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Hoffer said:


> That is weird. Someone else posted a different episode watching guide and it is way different than the one you linked to.
> 
> Here is the post from above.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9724890#post9724890


If I recall, some of the viewing order lists are optimized for continuity, while others are optimized to minimize DVD swapping.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

danterner said:


> If I recall, some of the viewing order lists are optimized for continuity, while others are optimized to minimize DVD swapping.


Yep, Aero's link says it is a disc swapping guide now that I read it.

I'll stick with the first guide linked.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I saw an episode today where everyone in town couldn't speak. These creepy guys would float around and cut out people's hearts. I thought this was a really great episode. Some of the most interesting bad guys I've ever seen.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Hoffer said:


> I saw an episode today where everyone in town couldn't speak. These creepy guys would float around and cut out people's hearts. I thought this was a really great episode. Some of the most interest bad guys I've ever seen.


"Hush." The only episode of the series to be nominated for an Emmy award (for outstanding cinematography).


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Hoffer said:


> I saw an episode today where everyone in town couldn't speak. These creepy guys would float around and cut out people's hearts. I thought this was a really great episode. Some of the most interesting bad guys I've ever seen.


Probably my favorite of the series.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

Hoffer said:


> I saw an episode today where everyone in town couldn't speak. These creepy guys would float around and cut out people's hearts. I thought this was a really great episode. Some of the most interesting bad guys I've ever seen.


That is an AMAZING episode. Legend has it that Joss was sick of all the talk about how the show had such great dialogue and wrote this episode to show it could be just as brilliant without the dialogue.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

SyFy is showing Buffy all day today. I have never been able to get into Buffy, though I loved Angel and Firefly. I am recording these - though it's just one or two from each season - to try again. I know Hush is in there and also the singing one. I think my favorites were a couple of Halloween episodes. Especially one where they became their costumes.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Yeah, fortunately they appear to be going in order, although as you note they're only doing select episodes from each season.


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

The only episode of "Buffy" that was shot 16:9 was "Once More, With Feeling". Every other episode was framed for 4:3. Some episodes have been released using the full width of the 35mm film, but that messes up the original framing (off-center, studio equipment visible, framing wider than director intended).


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

LoadStar said:


> Yeah, fortunately they appear to be going in order, although as you note they're only doing select episodes from each season.


I am hoping they picked the best of each season but don't know for sure....


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

alansh said:


> The only episode of "Buffy" that was shot 16:9 was "Once More, With Feeling". Every other episode was framed for 4:3. Some episodes have been released using the full width of the 35mm film, but that messes up the original framing (off-center, studio equipment visible, framing wider than director intended).


I was googling yesterday about this. Found a site that showed the same scene 4:3 and 16:9. Saw the one with studio equipment on the edges of the 16:9 frame. There was another one that in the scene, a person suddenly comes into frame to break the tension. In 16:9, you can see this person's arm, so you know somebody is there. So, the tension breaking doesn't work, because you already know someone is there.

I'm still watching the 16:9 version. The things this guy pointed out, I'd probably never notice.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

Well, I just noticed a 16:9 thing all on my own. This is a screen print I took from an episode I'm watching. Buffy and her man were having sexy time in a room and it was causing a frat house to be haunted. There was all kinds of vegetation and vines growing around.










You can see someone's arm in the far left. In motion, it was pulling a vine around. Quite sure that wouldn't be in the 4:3 frame.


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## cal_s7 (Oct 1, 2003)

Hoffer said:


> Yep, Aero's link says it is a disc swapping guide now that I read it.
> 
> I'll stick with the first guide linked.


That was me. Not that I created it. Only posted it and I'm using it as well. Im up to

Buffy 'Triangle' (S05E11)
Angel 'Redefinition' (S02E11)

and so far everything has been good when the two shows relate to each other.

Hush..... Ya one of my favorites. I watched that one and then started watching again with the dvd commentary just to see what they said. I normally never listen to the commentary. But I ended up watching the entire show over again.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I'm up around episode 18-20 for Buffy season 4 and Angel season 1. I'm enjoying both shows quite a bit. 

Charisma Carpenter continues to get incredibly hot. I was looking to see what she is up to now and I think she's on some ABC Family show. I enjoy her shallow character in L.A. on Angel. 

Oh yeah, I also like that Anya character on Buffy. The former demon who just says whatever dumb thing is on her mind.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

Finished off season 4 of Buffy and season 1 of Angel last night. Really didn't like the last ep of Buffy. The whole dream world of the first slayer thing.

Jumped right in and watched first episode of season 5 Buffy. I liked the Buffy vs Dracula thing. Xander eating bugs, and Giles having some fun with the 3 sisters.


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

Hoffer said:


> Finished off season 4 of Buffy and season 1 of Angel last night. Really didn't like the last ep of Buffy. The whole dream world of the first slayer thing.
> 
> Jumped right in and watched first episode of season 5 Buffy. I liked the Buffy vs Dracula thing. Xander eating bugs, and Giles having some fun with the 3 sisters.


That last episode of season 4 is my husband's favorite.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Hoffer said:


> Finished off season 4 of Buffy and season 1 of Angel last night. Really didn't like the last ep of Buffy. The whole dream world of the first slayer thing.
> 
> Jumped right in and watched first episode of season 5 Buffy. I liked the Buffy vs Dracula thing. Xander eating bugs, and Giles having some fun with the 3 sisters.





Lori said:


> That last episode of season 4 is my husband's favorite.


After Season 5, go back and rewatch the finale of season 4. The episode basically lays out most of what will happen to the characters in the future.


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