# LOST - 5/3 - Two for the Road



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Did anyone else have a lot of audio poping and other mess ups? I just started watching and the audio is skipping and popping. 

Please tell me I'm not the only one....


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

It seems to have stopped mid way through. I still hope that I wasn't the only one who experienced it though....please let me know.

Thanks


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Wow....a Hanso Foundation commercial...they're really pushing it now


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## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

yeah just saw the commercial to. They updated the http://thehansofoundation.org and it's completely up to date like it's a live project/company..

I love the subliminal advertising..


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Wow....a Hanso Foundation commercial...they're really pushing it now


its part of the game

call

1877HANSORG


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Wow...see what happens when you embarass the show by getting caught DWI!

Holy S**T


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

They've certainly spent thier time away wisely writing a kick ass episode


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## firerose818 (Jul 21, 2003)

Oh my...I was not expecting that ending! I'm in a little bit of shock!

-Rose


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## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

WTF!

WTF!


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

hes one of theeeeeeeeeem


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

I thought Michael was a spy until he shot himself in the arm.

WTF is going on????


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Tailies are just dropping like flies huh!?!?


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

Wow, talking about turning everything on it's head.... Didn't see that coming at all. All I have to say is, WTF MICHAEL! What reason do you have to shoot Anna Lucia? I suspect that he isn't telling the whole story.

I think that maybe the others convinced him to take out as many people as possible and he would get his son back.

Totally unexpected.

Cool thing with the commercial too....


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

MikeMar said:


> I thought Michael was a spy until he shot himself in the arm.
> 
> WTF is going on????


y wouldnt a spy cover his tracks?


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Had the popping at the beginning. Have DirecTV with HD DNS from New York.

Crazy episode. My wife called it as soon as he got back. They couldn't trust him.

It's funny that the two characters that got DUIs got shot. 

tk


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> I thought Michael was a spy until he shot himself in the arm.
> 
> WTF is going on????


He shot himself in the arm?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Michael had to shoot himself to make it seem like there was a scuffle I guess.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

DUSlider said:


> He shot himself in the arm?


From the previews:


Spoiler



Yup, his arm was in a sling.



tk


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## Ladd Morse (Feb 21, 2002)

Well, I guess the folks who feel the plot advances too slowly won't be able to complain about tonight's episode!


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## Ladd Morse (Feb 21, 2002)

DUSlider said:


> I suspect that he isn't telling the whole story.


Ya think?


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

The commercial during the show is part of the game that is starting up.

Go to www.thehansofoundation.org

Try to sign up for the newsletter

The phone number you got from the commercial 877-HANSORG


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## jschuman (Feb 20, 2001)

MikeMar said:


> I thought Michael was a spy until he shot himself in the arm.
> 
> WTF is going on????


2 theories:
1) He is brainwashed and was freeing Henry Gale. In order to remain in good graces with everyone there he had to make it look like Henry escaped and shot everyone. Henry will be gone before everyone gets to the hatch.

2) (I like this one better so I'm hoping it ends up being true). Same as above, except that he isn't brainwashed. The Others told him that if he freed Henry Gale then Walt would be returned to him. His apology/nervousness leads me to believe he was doing this under duress.

Just guesses on my part.

Edit: I also enjoyed the irony (purposeful?) that the 2 DUIers were killed off.


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## Jolt (Jan 9, 2006)

*WOW*


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## etexlady (Jun 23, 2002)

Wow, just picked my chin up off the floor. I totally wasn't expecting that.


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## Ladd Morse (Feb 21, 2002)

Commercial? What commercial?

People with TiVos watch commercials?

Dang it.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

They gotta stop killing off the hot chicks!


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Hurley's gonna get twitchy again over this.

I guess any girls whose supposed to go to the special beach will be shot eventually??!


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

Well, _that_ was a hell of an episode!

Lots of good backstory. And that ending!


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

How are they going to tell the whole Libby backstory now, through Hurley?


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Wow...see what happens when you embarass the show by getting caught DWI!
> 
> Holy S**T


Maybe thats why they went out and got plastered. Maybe they just found out they were getting written off..


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## Nina108 (May 5, 2004)

Well is it possible that Libby did not die? She was holding something in front of her when she was shot.


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

Nina108 said:


> Well is it possible that Libby did not die? She was holding something in front of her when she was shot.


Didn't she have that blank death stare going on?


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

Nina108 said:


> Well is it possible that Libby did not die? She was holding something in front of her when she was shot.


She was holding folded up blankets I believe. I see no reason to assume she's dead.


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Hurley's gonna be pissed!


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Wow, that was a shocking ending, that's for sure. My theory is that Michael is making it look like Henry shot everyone which will anger everyone else enough to attack the others. Did he not realize they were already that angry though?? Anyway, that's all I got. 

So did anyone call the Hanso number and actually get something on the other end? All I get is constant ringing...


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I knew it. I just knew it. I knew he'd be an "Other" when he came back. And when he starting spouting off how they're all scruffy, contrary to what we and Kate know.... I knew for certain. And Kate will figure it out, she was making too many "that doesn't make sense" looks as Michael was telling his story.

He shot Anna Lucia because he knows her to be a bad person. Lilly was accidental -- we don't know wether she was "good" or "bad" in the eyes of the others.

At first when Michael offered to kill Henry, I thought it was because he was told to do so by the boss because Henry failed his mission. But when he shot Anna and then Lilly, I was floored. (of course, before Lilly hits the ground I say to myself "That's what happens when you embarass the show").

DAMN!!!

AL is dea for sure, but Lilly I'm not 100% on.


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

3 letters....

O....M....G!!!!!

Has anyone tried to login to the Hanso site? I'm sure there are a lot of goodies on there if you have the right password.


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## StrynBean (Aug 5, 2004)

WOW...just WOW!

I can't wait for next week!

I am gonna have to watch the last 15 min again!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, so.....

Henry told Anna "you killed two of us.." (and later said something like "you're a killer, Anna Lucia"). Two?

Ok the first question - by "you" did he mean Anna, or was it a plural you meaning everyone? Because we saw her kill Goodwin, but then that was it, right? (she killed Shannon too).. (and she killed the guy in the "real world" who killed her unborn baby)..

If it was the plural you, that doesn't make sense either, because Mr. Eko killed two, and then Anna killed Goodwin. That's three.

So I think he meant the singular you - just Anna. Does that mean Shannon was one of them (the others)? Or that the guy who killed her baby was? Maybe he thinks she killed the black haired tailey that's missing now?

With respect to the ending, it seemed very clear to me at the end (after he shot his own shoulder) that he was enraging everyone else so they'd all attack the others, so he could get Walt back.

I practically couldn't breathe after the 2nd shot..


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## El Gabito (Mar 11, 2004)

The site told me to call the number to get the password when I try to sign up for the newsletter. The number just rings though.

edit: says "it's me, persephone. what's the password?"

btw is website stuff supposed to be spoilerized?


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

My theory on Michael's "shooting spree":

Michael shot Anna Lucia because of a directive he received from the Others. Libby was clearly an accident, but was a necessary casualty since she saw the whole ordeal. Michael definately shot himself in the arm on purpose. If you were going to kill yourself, why shoot away like that? He did so to make it look like Henry killed Anna Lucia and Libby. The other Losties would think Michael tried to stop Henry, and in so doing shot Michael in the arm. 

Jack's father and Anna Lucia in Sydney: 

I think Jack's father may have fathered another child--Claire!! That woman he visited had way too many similarities to Claire to be a coincidence. I'm guessing that Jack's father is also Claire's father, which would make Claire Jack's half-sister. Not sure what implications that has...

Great episode, well worth the three week wait!!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

whitepelican said:


> She was holding folded up blankets I believe. I see no reason to assume she's dead.


There was a pretty big pool of blood coming out from her body. I don't see any way she's NOT dead!


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## El Gabito (Mar 11, 2004)

pcguru83 said:


> My theory on Michael's "shotting spree":
> 
> Michael shot Anna Lucia because of a directive he received from the Others. Libby was clearly an accident, but was a necessary casualty since she saw the whole ordeal. Michael definately shot himself in the arm on purpose. If you were going to kill yourself, why shoot away like that? He did so to make it look like Henry killed Anna Lucia and Libby. The other Losties would think Michael tried to stop Henry, and in so doing shot Michael in the arm.
> 
> ...


Interesting and very possible theory.


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## Ladd Morse (Feb 21, 2002)

pcguru83 said:


> I think Jacks father may have fathered another child--Claire!! That woman he visited had way too many similarities to Claire to be a coincidence. I'm guessing that Jack's father is also Claire's father, which would make Claire Jack's half-sister.


I was also wondering about that -- I thought it was Claire at first, but it's someone older, although I'm not sure she was old enough to be Claires's mother.

Jack's father clearly yells "I have a right to see my daughter! I pay the mortgage on this house".


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Ladd Morse said:


> I was also wondering about that -- I thought it was Claire at first, but it's someone older, although I'm not sure she was old enough to be Claires's mother.
> 
> Jack's father clearly yells "I have a right to see my daughter! I pay the mortgage on this house".


Yeah, good point about the age. Definately questionable as to whether or not she was old enough to have been the mother of Claired. I'll have to take another look...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

WTF? Man, Hawaiian drunk driving penalties sure are harsh.


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

Michaels story will fall apart. 
He shot AL while she was sitting right? So, how does he explain getting shot inside the "cell"? 
If he was shot first, AL would not be sitting. She would have jumped right up. If he was shot after AL, why was he back in the cell?

GREAT EPISODE!!!!!!!



Spoiler



website board of directors has someone called Liddy Wales. No picture. seems to close to Libby.


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

It kinda makes sense now... 

1. Finish filming your death scene. 
2. Go out and have a few drinks. 
3. Get DUI. 
4. Go to jail and show says the schedule won't be impacted (well.... duuuuh)

Talk about a rather exciting way to end your tour with Lost!


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## quell (Jul 24, 2002)

When you try to sign up for the news letter on the web site a hand written note says Hi, its me persephone, whats the password. I didnt know the password so I entered persephone and it told me to call the 877-426-7674 number from the TV comercial but it was too busy "all circuits are busy"....

Does anyone know the password?


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

pcguru83 said:


> I think Jack's father may have fathered another child--Claire!! That woman he visited had way too many similarities to Claire to be a coincidence.


That was my thinking as well.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

Ladd Morse said:


> I was also wondering about that -- I thought it was Claire at first, but it's someone older, although I'm not sure she was old enough to be Claires's mother.


I think she could be old enough. Claire is pretty young, so her mother could be under 40. The woman in the house could easily have been that old, particularly since she (and Claire) have the type of features that will always make them look younger than they are. And in any case we didn't get that good a look at her.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Sawyer didn't notice his gun was missing?


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## e11m1c (Mar 30, 2006)

theories/ideas 
1) the woman that christian shepard (sp?) found is the mother of clare -- definitely debatable, but equally likely
2) michael is either brainwashed or under duress (in order that he retrieve walt, he let "gale" go) - at this point i don't think it matters
3) libby is an other - hence michael's surprise when he sees whom the bullet hit. he had no problem firing because for whatever reason it was unlikely that she be in the hatch, but he was told specifically not to kill her
4) duh- michael shot himself to pretend that he was a casualty of gale as well - even though he would have to explain how he survived and didn't save ana lucia or libby by blaming it on the fact that he's not well enough yet

problems
1) clare isn't living at home so c. shepard wouldn't have found her there - unless the woman who answered the door was saying that his daughter wasn't there
2) libby seemed surprised to see michael - it seems that even those others who've infiltrated have managed to maintain communication with the core group
3) no (apparent) way to explain how gale got the gun - though michael could say that ana lucia was taken out by gale after she let him cut the ropes

random idea
...joop = hanso = "He"/"Him"


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

What a wild ride that episode was! Wonderful! 

Now, what about the whole bit Henry fed Locke about "being good". Will Locke buy it? He seemed like he was feeling conned. 

And how about the sex in the bamboo bit. Whee! The ending was excellent and I thought that Michael was trouble after being out there for so long, but didn't expect that.


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## audiocrawford (Oct 19, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Sawyer didn't notice his gun was missing?


Loved the episode, but this point stuck with me as well.

Was Sawyer that desperate to get laid he forgot...for hours later? Sawyer is the type that would have definately noticed if his piece was missing or not.

AC


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## quell (Jul 24, 2002)

In the previews for next week what was the thing they were pushing < the big object in the jungle >?

Also I agree either Michael was brainwashed or told that they would kill walt if he didn't go free the captured other.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Ok, so.....
> 
> Henry told Anna "you killed two of us.." (and later said something like "you're a killer, Anna Lucia"). Two?
> 
> ...


Anna killed an Other before killing Goodwin. It was after Ecko killed the two, when the Others came back the second time. The one carrying the list of names.


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

Surely they can't kill Libby off with that great introduction to a cool back story. I just don't see that happening. This episode definately had my jaw dropped at the end.

What got me thinking was that Henry said that Locke was good, and I would imagine that he thinks Ana-Lucia was bad. So maybe Michael was told who he couldn't (the good) kill and who he could (the bad), and maybe Libby was good and he knew he screwed up???


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Great ep! 


Spoiler



The large metal thing that Locke and Ecko are pushing? Must be the entrance into the hatch that they are in when they light the flashlight? And Libby may not be dead. It looks like Hurley is holding someones hand in the preview, and how would he find out she was in the asylum if she is dead?



"I'm sorry. 
For what.?"
BANG!!!


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## Chandler Mike (Mar 29, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> I knew it. I just knew it. I knew he'd be an "Other" when he came back. And when he starting spouting off how they're all scruffy, contrary to what we and Kate know.... I knew for certain. And Kate will figure it out, she was making too many "that doesn't make sense" looks as Michael was telling his story.
> 
> He shot Anna Lucia because he knows her to be a bad person. Lilly was accidental -- we don't know wether she was "good" or "bad" in the eyes of the others.
> 
> ...


No way, you guys are all crazy 

He thinks he can get Walt by freeing Henry, because "the man" told him to go get him...and he had no choice...he had to do it.

It has to be that...that' s why he said "I'm sorry..."


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

pcguru83 said:


> Libby was clearly an accident, but was a necessary casualty since she saw the whole ordeal.


I think it was just clearly and accident. The look on his face after he shot her showed that he was just as shocked as her. I think she just scared him when she called out his name and he shot as a reflex.

And I don't think she's dead, either. I bet her recovery will lead to something happening that causes Hurley to remember where she's from.


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## fliptheflop (Sep 20, 2005)

I was thinking that was Claire's mom to. I also had pop and skipping at the beginning of the show it stopped towards the middle.


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## Chandler Mike (Mar 29, 2002)

Can anyone tell us what happened at the start? Why did Ana quit?

And we missed (Tivo stopped taping) from when Ana and Jack's dad join up at the airport, to the part where Lock goes in to talk to Henry.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

DA-YUM!!!!


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> I thought Michael was a spy until he shot himself in the arm.
> 
> WTF is going on????


He just wants to make everyone mad enough to go wipe the Others out.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Speaking of guns and the absurdity that Sawyer would not notice his missing piece...

I kept waiting for someone to ask Michael where his riffle was. He claims to have gone off and was never spotted. Yet he returns without his weapon. That raised my eyebrows.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

whitson77 said:


> He just wants to make everyone mad enough to go wipe the Others out.


Nah. I bet he was convinced of the righteousness of the Others. Perhaps he was let in on some next-level stuff. Mind blowing metaphysical stuff. He's one of them now. I've felt it for weeks. He was gone for so long I figured he had to have been taken in by them. I think he chose his side. And whose to say he chose wrong.

Add to the mix that Walt seems to be some sort of chosen one.

-Mike


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Maybe he's "infected." "Sick" as Rousseau had described her original group.


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## AstroDad (Jan 21, 2003)

The newsletter password is: Breaking Strain


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## headytiger (Oct 17, 2003)

quell said:


> When you try to sign up for the news letter on the web site a hand written note says Hi, its me persephone, whats the password. I didnt know the password so I entered persephone and it told me to call the 877-426-7674 number from the TV comercial but it was too busy "all circuits are busy"....
> 
> Does anyone know the password?


whats ?


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

I'm thinking the name of the daughter of Jack's father is Sara?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

atrac said:


> I'm thinking the name of the daughter of Jack's father is Sara?


Jack's wife was Sarah, I believe.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Nice double or triple meaning title.

1. AL and Jack's dad on the road trip to Australia
2. AL and Libby dying
3. Michelle Rodriguez & Cynthia Watros' drinking & driving escapades.

-smak-


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## PhantomDilbert (Nov 6, 2005)

'breaking strain'

courtesy of the 'other' forum =)


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

Wow!

Just got done watching it.

Wow.

I can't say a TV show has surprised me that much - EVER.

Wow again. I'm still a bit stunned.

There was a hanso commercial in it? I haven't deleted it yet, so at what point in the show does the commercial appear?


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## jasong2001 (Sep 3, 2005)

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but after you "Sign up" for the newsletter the site appears "hacked" after you get your message from the Newsletter check out Joop's Corner and send him a message. Interesting reading to follow.... So far I've only noticed Newsletter and Joop's Corner as being "hacked" 

Interesting Episode.


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## burnsy (Dec 12, 2001)

Can you say Evil Twin .

Check out the title of the script Sawyer was reading.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Mike Farrington said:


> I knew it. I just knew it. I knew he'd be an "Other" when he came back. And when he starting spouting off how they're all scruffy, contrary to what we and Kate know....


It's only a contradiction if you assume that there's just one group of "Others".

Edit: Apparently I'm supposed to spoiler this...



Spoiler



In the preview for next week, I thought I heard "she's dead"... which could imply that they're not _both_ dead, though I probably read too much into that. If one's not dead, she might be in a coma (allowing Michael's plan to continue).


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

quell said:


> When you try to sign up for the news letter on the web site a hand written note says Hi, its me persephone, whats the password. I didnt know the password so I entered persephone and it told me to call the 877-426-7674 number from the TV comercial but it was too busy "all circuits are busy"....
> 
> Does anyone know the password?


It's been posted a few messages back now, but it's said in one of the messages when you call 1-877-HANSORG (I got it twice on extension 1, but I also got some other messages at that extension... called several times ). Not the same message every time though, so you might not get it every time.

The guy on the radio they use as muzak when you're on hold is speaking Danish, by the way. He doesn't seem to say anything of importance, just talking about the music (Geronimo Jackson ), and it ends with him saying something like "news is coming up after these messages from our sponsors".


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

justapixel said:


> Wow!
> 
> Just got done watching it.
> 
> ...


Last commercial break before the ending in the bunker.

Yeah, that was a stunner. Of course I thought of Michael as a possible other now, but who didn't. I never thought he'd kill anyone there though!

The backstory with Jack's dad and A-L was frustratingly brief... grr... I wonder if we'll get back to that soon... I hope so!


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

I thought it was an OK episode, not great. The last two shots surprized me, but not too much else did. I thought a lot of it was pretty predictable, actually -- Gale's attack on Ana Lucia, Ana Lucia stealing the gun from Sawyer, Michael shooting Ana Lucia. Didn't do much for me. 

Being a TiVo user and all, I didn't see the commercial. Anyone got a link to it?


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## limsol45 (Apr 4, 2006)

Ruth said:


> I thought it was an OK episode, not great. The last two shots surprized me, but not too much else did. I thought a lot of it was pretty predictable, actually -- Gale's attack on Ana Lucia, Ana Lucia stealing the gun from Sawyer, Michael shooting Ana Lucia. Didn't do much for me.
> 
> Being a TiVo user and all, I didn't see the commercial. Anyone got a link to it?


its on the hanso site.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

All I can think is HFS. Shocking ending. It NEVER crossed my mind that Michael might have been brainwashed or converted or whatever. I actually was more into the AL back story... the fact that she had the huge connection to Jack's dad.

Do we actually KNOW that Jack's dad is dead? Did Jack look at the body and identify it? I can't remember if we know how he actually met his demise. Could he be part of the Hanso group in some way?


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## forecheck (Aug 5, 2000)

WOW, Great Episode! Good catch on Claire's possible mother, I like the theory.


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## limsol45 (Apr 4, 2006)

well about claire's dad being jacks dad, in season one where she is about give her baby up for adpotion she asks the soon to be mom if she would sing a lulaby to the baby, that her father use to sing for her. Was that as a baby? or a young child where she would remember her dad?


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## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

Anyone know the NYSE listing for the Hanso Foundation? I wanna invest.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

laststarfighter said:


> Anyone know the NYSE listing for the Hanso Foundation? I wanna invest.


..at the very least, so you could go to the shareholders meetings!


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## DukieTK (Dec 24, 2004)

I can't believe it's been 87 posts and no mention, but I recall it was Sawyer, when Jack's Dad was getting out of the car and swung the door open and hit a drunk or a dwrifter how said something back like "watch it buddy".


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## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

DukieTK said:


> I can't believe it's been 87 posts and no mention, but I recall it was Sawyer, when Jack's Dad was getting out of the car and swung the door open and hit a drunk or a dwrifter how said something back like "watch it buddy".


When AL and Jack's Dad stopped the car at that cocktail bar, and ran into Sawyer as he opened the door...wasn't that the bar where Jack's Dad and Sawyer wound up drinking together, and he convinced Sawyer to go do what he came to do (kill what turned out to be the wrong guy)?


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## DukieTK (Dec 24, 2004)

and they end up drinking together but I believe you are right.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

MikeS said:


> The backstory with Jack's dad and A-L was frustratingly brief... grr... I wonder if we'll get back to that soon... I hope so!


I didn't like the Jack's dad/Ana Lucia connection at all. It seems too contrived to me. I have to let the story play out, but I'm not sure I like Mike's sudden murderous turn to he dark side of the force, either.


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## headroll (Jan 20, 2003)

DukieTK said:


> I can't believe it's been 87 posts and no mention, but I recall it was Sawyer, when Jack's Dad was getting out of the car and swung the door open and hit a drunk or a dwrifter how said something back like "watch it buddy".


Iterestingly enough it was VERY obvious with CC on, as it said:

"(Sawyer) I'm walking here."

-Roll


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Wow!! Wow.wow.wow.wow. I had a hard time sleeping after watching this ep last night. So many scenarios running through my mind.

I don't think Libby dies (they've invested a lot into her backstory recently) but how do you survive 2 torso shots without a hospital?

When Hurley brought up about figuring out where he knew libby from she got this look on her face...she knows he is on to her.


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

Wow. That last scene ranked up there with the last scene in 24 - Season 1 as most shocking. I kept telling my wife that AL was gonna be killed off due to her drunk driving, but I did not expect it to be so soon. And by Michael.

Can anyone confirm that the woman Jack's dad was speaking too was the same woman that played Claire's mother?


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

At some point, I would like to see a bunch of episodes that come from the Other's perspective. Kind of like they did with the tailies.


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## rizzlebizzle (Oct 14, 2005)

Did anyone notice the dripping in the background right after Libby got shot? It seemed to be coming from above?


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

It is pretty obvious to me but it seems that Michael is not an "other" this is what his deal with the others is to get Walt back. 

Michael went into the jungle to look for Walt and got captured. Others sent Gale out to get Locke. When Jack showed up screaming the others decided to use Michael to get Gale back "by any means necessary". 

I was actually looking for a knowing glance between Michael and Gale and did not see one which could blow my whole theory. I think next season there will be a flashback episode of Michael's time in the jungle.


----------



## golfnut-n-nh (Nov 30, 2004)

rizzlebizzle said:


> Did anyone notice the dripping in the background right after Libby got shot? It seemed to be coming from above?


My wife and I noticed that also! What would be the purpose?


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I was thinking about this overnight (How could I not be?).

I think Michael was convinced to join "the others". I'll bet Walt convinced him. Perhaps the "great man" himself convinced him. I don't think he's brainwashed, as much as come to see their viewpoint.

I love the idea that they've been trying to infiltrate since day 1, and here they have succeeded, by sending Michael back. If Michael is an other he'll be the best infiltrator ever.

Which led me to.... Kate. Of all the people on the island, I would think Kate would find it easiest to become an "other". She definitely doesn't want to go home. They have a society on the island that is unlike anything back in the States, and she's not going to face arrest and jail. Given a choice between jail and staying on the island, I think most people would choose staying on the island.

So what if.... Kate flipped back when they had her with the bag over her head? There was very little time, I agree, however, I think she'd be easy to convince. She'd know that Michaels story wasn't valid, but she'd also have no reason to point out the flaws. In fact, she'd help cover them up.

People have pointed out that she's been different since then. Maybe there's a reason.


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## StrynBean (Aug 5, 2004)

golfnut-n-nh said:


> My wife and I noticed that also! What would be the purpose?


That really stood out in my mind too while watching. I wonder what that is all about!?!


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## vinniet (Jun 21, 2002)

smickola said:


> When AL and Jack's Dad stopped the car at that cocktail bar, and ran into Sawyer as he opened the door...wasn't that the bar where Jack's Dad and Sawyer wound up drinking together, and he convinced Sawyer to go do what he came to do (kill what turned out to be the wrong guy)?


Yes the minute I saw the bar when AL stopped the car, I said to my wife " we are going to see Sawyer". Sure enough there he was .....


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

That episode last night really upset me. I didn't even realize it until today. I think Ana-Lucia and Libby are both dead.

It's amazing to me what people can read into some of this stuff. Michael is not brainwashed. Michael is not an "other" (neither is Charlie.) He's just being blackmailed. Get our guy back or we'll kill your son. Sounds simple to me.

And stop talking about spoilers untagged! Some of the people doing it have more than 1,000 posts and should know forum rules. I'm looking at you, wmcbrine.


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Didn't anyone see GMA this morning? Michelle Rodriguez was on there and said that her death had been planned from the beginning, it was in her contract and had nothing to do with the DUI conviction. Robin Roberts also said that both has been killed.


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## vinniet (Jun 21, 2002)

On GMA (good morning america) this morning AL (can not remember her real name) was being interviewed. She said .....



Spoiler



... she knew from the begining that she was to be killed off when they hired her. None of the other people on the show knew that but her.

So the DWI had nothing to do with it. She even joked about it in the interview.


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## twincaminferno (Mar 6, 2006)

So when you send joop a message and get to see the secret letter, is there a watermark or something like that in the top of the page?


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## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

Chandler Mike said:


> No way, you guys are all crazy
> 
> He thinks he can get Walt by freeing Henry, because "the man" told him to go get him...and he had no choice...he had to do it.
> 
> It has to be that...that' s why he said "I'm sorry..."


I think the same thing.. Basically the others probably let him roam around forever knowing he wouldn't find anything.

He came across the other group on island but not the others and was spying on them.

Jack wanted a trade and they didn't want to play fair, they basically traded michael for henry.

Michael is motivated by the simple fact he thinks Walt will be free after he free's Henry. I truly think he felt bad about killing ana lucia and I think that Libby was just an accident and not an agent of the others.


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## twincaminferno (Mar 6, 2006)

glumlord said:


> Michael is motivated by the simple fact he thinks Walt will be free after he free's Henry. I truly think he felt bad about killing ana lucia and I think that Libby was just an accident and not an agent of the others.


Well she did scare him while holding a gun....thats why you dont hold suprise parties for police officers. Its like that Reno 911 skit.


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## golfnut-n-nh (Nov 30, 2004)

If Michael was sent back to free Henry so that Walt would be set free, Henry is still in deep do-do because he was sent to bring Locke back. Henry what are you going to do?


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

mwhip said:


> I was actually looking for a knowing glance between Michael and Gale and did not see one which could blow my whole theory. I think next season there will be a flashback episode of Michael's time in the jungle.


I hope we'll see something like this in the current season. I expect (that is, hope) they'll wrap up the Walt storyline by the season finale so maybe we'll see more of what happened to Michael.

I don't think this is a brainwashing thing. I expect it's just a "here's what you have to do if you want to see your son again" thing.

Although you really can't trust what Michael said, it does raise the issue again of there being more than one group of Others. The civilized Dharma group, and the savage group.


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## Brewer4 (May 6, 2004)

I thought episode was a bit boring until the end. Wow. Made up for some of the slow parts. Gotta stop killing off the eye candy unless more on the way.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

vinniet said:


> SPOLIER INFORMATION CLIPPED
> 
> 
> > I don't know what it is about the thread today, but what is with all the non-spoiliarized spoilers?
> ...


----------



## Frank_M (Sep 9, 2001)

I think the look that Gale gave Michael when he opened the door made it very clear that he expected him to come, and expected him to free him.

The way he rose, and stared at him... gave me the impression that Michael was doing exactly what he was told to do. 

I think that Gale had been waiting for this event for some time, and all the things he'd been doing and saying were meant only to bide his time.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

(Fish Man arrives a little later than usual to the party)

H. F. C!

<hurley>Didn't see that comin'!</hurley>


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

golfnut-n-nh said:


> If Michael was sent back to free Henry so that Walt would be set free, Henry is still in deep do-do because he was sent to bring Locke back. Henry what are you going to do?


Michael is saying the others don't have many guns and can be attacked easily. Sounds like an ambush to me.


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

I also think he was told by the others that he had to free Henry if he wanted to get his son back. I also think he was ordered to kill Ana because she killed one of the others. Shooting Libby was an accident and I'm not sure she's dead. Don't know what was dripping on the floor after she was shot or if it means anything.
And I still don't believe anything Henry says. His mission may not have been to get Locke, maybe he told him that in the hope that Locke would let him go. I'm not even sure that it was an accident that he was caught in the net.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Wow! Enter the newsletter password - breaking strain

Go to joop corner, send him a message

You go into this weird color thing, click on the circles when they appear, you enter a LETTER from GWC Global Welfare Consortium!!!


----------



## vinniet (Jun 21, 2002)

RBlount said:


> vinniet said:
> 
> 
> > SPOLIER INFORMATION CLIPPED
> ...


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I'm with JAP. No TV show has ever surprised me that much. I couldn't care less about AL being shot. I've been begging for that since she first became a regular... but Libby? That was a shock!


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

If anyone wants it, I peiced together the letter on the hanzo site you get from joops corner that is hidden 

http://i2.tinypic.com/x4rhb9.jpg

Let me know if it's not large enough


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## durl (Dec 1, 2005)

This episode upset me. Not only do the losties not share information with each other, now their KILLING each other as well.

A few points on Michael:

- How will he explain the door being unlocked for Henry? AL had the combo, but she was shot while sitting on the couch. You'd think that a woman like her wouldn't open the door then sit on the couch only to be killed. Especially after Henry tried to kill her earlier in the day.

- Michael is shot INSIDE the closet. That makes you think that he's the FIRST to be shot. Which brings us back to the question of how he got inside.

- Michael is shot on the inside of his left arm. That could mean a struggle for a gun, but it's still an awkward place to be shot. Plus, if there was a struggle inside the closet that AL had to have opened, how could Henry take them both out if there was a struggle?

- Henry was restrained with heavy rope. He didn't get free by himself. The only one to survive was Michael.

Most of these can be explained, but probably not completely. With that being said, the previews for next week show Michael wearing a sling up against a wall in what appears to be an empty room. Does this mean that they KNOW Michael shot the women and they've locked him up?


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

It looked to me like Michael shot himself on the outside of his left arm.

I know everyone is thinking that the woman at the door was Claire's mother, but I had a different thought. In the episode "The Other 48 Days," wasn't A-L taking care of a kid or two who were on the plane alone? Maybe the little girl was Jack's half-sister? I didn't think that the woman looked old enough to be Claire's mother, but it's certainly possible. I just can't remember if those kids were on the plane alone, or if their parents died in the crash.


----------



## durl (Dec 1, 2005)

crowfan said:


> It looked to me like Michael shot himself on the outside of his left arm.


It might have been on the outside portion of his arm, but a person shooting their other arm will leave a wound pointing towards their shooting hand, not straight-on. Jack should catch that right away.


----------



## BlearyEyed (Jun 11, 2002)

MikeMar,

Have you accessed the second letter yet? I believe it's just a matter of waiting a few minutes and then it lets you view a second letter that takes back all the comments in the first letter and apologizes for any misunderstanding. Then you click again and it says something to the effect of how The Hanso Foundation is circumventing the law in record time. Not sure what any of this means of course...


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

BlearyEyed said:


> MikeMar,
> 
> Have you accessed the second letter yet? I believe it's just a matter of waiting a few minutes and then it lets you view a second letter that takes back all the comments in the first letter and apologizes for any misunderstanding. Then you click again and it says something to the effect of how The Hanso Foundation is circumventing the law in record time. Not sure what any of this means of course...


Hmmm no i haven't.

I'll load it up again and let it sit there


----------



## HIHZia (Nov 3, 2004)

WOW!

When we were watching, as soon as Anna gave the gun to Michael I said "He's gonna shoot her". I was still suprised when it happened.


----------



## KRS (Jan 30, 2002)

Brewer4 said:


> I thought episode was a bit boring until the end. Wow. Made up for some of the slow parts. Gotta stop killing off the eye candy unless more on the way.


I didn't find this episode as dull as the Rose and Bernard episode, but I totally agree that it felt sub par until the very end. And I think that any show can shock the audience by shooting/killing three main characters.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

crowfan said:


> It looked to me like Michael shot himself on the outside of his left arm.
> 
> I know everyone is thinking that the woman at the door was Claire's mother, but I had a different thought. In the episode "The Other 48 Days," wasn't A-L taking care of a kid or two who were on the plane alone? Maybe the little girl was Jack's half-sister? I didn't think that the woman looked old enough to be Claire's mother, but it's certainly possible. I just can't remember if those kids were on the plane alone, or if their parents died in the crash.


IIRC one the kids (maybe the daughter) was asking about her mom. I think we can assume that at least their mom was on board.

I would find it unlikely (and inprobable) that AL was taking care of the kids on the plane as we would have seen them in (a) the ticket line, (b) when AL was talking to her mom, and (c) when AL was in the bar with Jack.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

KRS said:


> I didn't find this episode as dull as the Rose and Bernard episode, but I totally agree that it felt sub par until the very end. And I think that any show can shock the audience by shooting/killing three main characters.


Yeah it was definitely a shock when this guy was shot:



Spoiler















Devastating, simply devastating. Or perhaps it's an out-take of Michael's face, after shooting AL & Libby.

Greg


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## Maquis (May 6, 2004)

> but a person shooting their other arm will leave a wound pointing towards their shooting hand, not straight-on


It looked to me like Michael held the gun out and turned it in toward himself. Make it look like the bullet came from Henry's direction.

But he still doesn't have an explination why he's shot in the armory, and Anna-Lucia and Libby are both shot out in the living room (with A-L still sitting on the couch)


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> Hmmm no i haven't.
> 
> I'll load it up again and let it sit there


It's here:

http://jayandjack.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Lost_Experience


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Meh. This episode proved to me that the lost train has derailed. It's true, I liked the surprise ending. But only in that it was unexpected. At the same time, I kind of hated it. I felt more than ever in this episode that the writers are jerking me around. I do not like that feeling, and it is a strong sign of weakness in writing when I feel it.

I did not like AL and jack's dad at all. I did not like the hurley picnic storyline - just seemed off to me. Did not like the confrontation with sawyer - what was the point of all the posturing and throwing the script in the fire?

All in all, did not like the episode, and am starting to feel distances from Lost. It does not draw me in like it used to. The strange thing is, i thought two of the episodes this season were great. But lately it's just been more and more mindf**ks and random surprises.

Michael might have been ordered to free the guy in exchange for walt. Or he might have done it as a motivation for going after them. To be honest, I really don't care at this point because two episodes from now they are going to totally reverse it and do something just for a surprise factor.


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

It would be better if we moved all discussion of the Lost game here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4001542#post4001542


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

By the way, anyone else got a chuckle out of Sawyer telling A-L "Scram!". It suddenly became clear to me that his character really must be based on Oscar The Grouch!


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Quick points:

The dripping from the ceiling in the hatch when Libby arrives looked like it came from overhead pipes. I think we've seen it before.

In the opening scene of the LAPD parking lot, all of the cop cars have "Lost" numbers as their roof car number - 23, 16, 15, etc.

When Christian turns on the radio in the car with AL, the numbers on the stereo add up as well. The station was 99.9, which adds to 108, and the time was 5:29, which adds to 16.

Locke clearly was regaining his mojo footing, if you'll pardon the expression.

Now we can understand the line AL told Jack in the airport bar: "The worst part is over." Like so many things about AL, this one turns out to be wrong too! I only wonder if she knew that Christian was Jack's dad.

And they shipped wine in the pallet of food? And these people went for the mac and cheese first?


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

jurl and others, quit it with the untagged spoilers. I hope other members start reporting you soon.


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## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

MikeMar said:


> Tailies are just dropping like flies huh!?!?


Very funny 

Great episode, but I saw a few things that bugged me:

- Bonded Henry, all 150lbs of him, almost suffocating AL (an ex-cop and a pretty tuff woman).
- Michael, who just learned how to shoot a rifle, shoots Libby TWICE in the torso from a decent distance without really aiming, not a very easy thing to do, especially for a novice shooter.

Other comments/observations:

I was not bugged by Sawyer missing his gun. It is plausible that he gave it to AL, but momentary forgot about it when he reached for it. Since it is usually there, but it isnt like he had to use it very often.

Libby surviving does not necessary outs Michael, if she is an other (as most people here suspect), she will cover for him.

However, Kate told Jack about the raggedy costumes and the fake beards, which means they should realize that ether there are other others or that Michael is lying about his observations of the others.

I think that Michael must be brainwashed, infected or conned. Because I do not see him killing people to get Walt back, unless he believed that they were somehow not worthy to be alive.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

durl said:


> It might have been on the outside portion of his arm, but a person shooting their other arm will leave a wound pointing towards their shooting hand, not straight-on. Jack should catch that right away.


This isn't CSI:Lost. I'll really be pissed if they start giving Jack crime fighting forensic skills, too. Michael will make up some reasonable plausible story and every one will believe him for a while until he slips up somehow.


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

Four things I found interesting...

1) Gale catching Locke's curiosity with the "You're one of the good ones" bit ... Locke never totally dismissed it.

2) In a previous episode, Gale made Locke promise to protect him (Gale). (_Lockdown_, I believe).

3) Locke covered for the mark on Ana Lucia's head; it looked like Ana Lucia was unsettled by Locke covering for her.

4) Locke seemed to have a "change of heart" - suddenly agreeing with Jack.



Spoiler



Watros will be playing a featured character on a CBS sitcom this fall. Speculation was that cross-network employment was frowned upon.



It also seems that shortly after anybody hooks up on the island, and they are a woman, they have a good chance of getting shot. (Shannon,AL)


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

To me, at least, it makes absolutely no sense for Michael to have shot Ana-Lucia. He had the gun. He could have just freed Henry Gale, locked AL in the room and skedaddled. And has Libby ever been in the hatch? All of a sudden she shows up now? 

If the Others wanted Locke so bad, why didn't they just ask him to join them? He seems like he'd investigate their offer just to find out what's going on.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Libby was in the hatch with Hurley doing laundry a few months ago when Hurley first said she looked familiar.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

If Michael didn't shoot AL, and just locked her in them AL would told them when they opened the door and Michael couldn't still remain in camp and influence Jack, Locke and everyone else to go to war with the others.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

What's going on in here today? Please use spoiler tags when discussing previews. Thanks.


----------



## twincaminferno (Mar 6, 2006)

NoThru22 said:


> jurl and others, quit it with the untagged spoilers. I hope other members start reporting you soon.


I dont think the stuff they are talking about is that spoilerish. Why else would people read a blog about the Lost show, perhaps to find out everything they can. Rock on people, great info!!


----------



## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

cherry ghost said:


> What's going on in here today? Please use spoiler tags when discussing previews. Thanks.


Yet, you do not see the irony of you quoting what he posted without the spoiler tags?


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

My guess is that Michael is doing the war to DRAW everyone powerful away from camp, and then the others are going to come in and take everyone there, or take them out at least, or a mix of both.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

TR7spyder said:


> Yet, you do not see the irony of you quoting what he posted without the spoiler tags?


Major f*** up, fixed.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

paperboy2003 said:


> Libby was in the hatch with Hurley doing laundry a few months ago when Hurley first said she looked familiar.


If I had a memory, I'd be dangerous.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

twincaminferno said:


> I dont think the stuff they are talking about is that spoilerish. Why else would people read a blog about the Lost show, perhaps to find out everything they can. Rock on people, great info!!


Read the forum rules please. Anything that did not happen IN THE SHOW is to be spoilerized. Previews are not considered part of the show so all discussion of them should be spoilerized as well.

Thanks.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

twincaminferno said:


> I dont think the stuff they are talking about is that spoilerish. Why else would people read a blog about the Lost show, perhaps to find out everything they can. Rock on people, great info!!


From the *Rules for Posting to the TV Talk Area*



> Anything shown on the previews of next week is considered a spoiler on this forum, and must be tagged as such, using spoiler tags. (See below for instructions.) Any spoiler information from other sources, such as articles, websites, personal friendships with producers, etc., must also be tagged.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=271608

The rules exist because some people want varying levels of spoiler info. Personally, I watch the previews but avoid anything else, while some don't watch the previews for next week. The rules exist so that those who want to stay blissfully ignorant can, while the rest can highlight the spoiler info for more information.


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## twincaminferno (Mar 6, 2006)

SeanC said:


> Read the forum rules please. Anything that did not happen IN THE SHOW is to be spoilerized. Previews are not considered part of the show so all discussion of them should be spoilerized as well.
> 
> Thanks.


I agree with the previews but the website...I dont know...maybe a seperate topic should have been started for that one.


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## cvillacci (May 18, 2004)

Did anyone else get the thought that the group of people Michael was describing could be people from the middle section of the plane? It did not sound like 'The Others' that we have either seen on the boat with guns or the professional looking people (performing claires surgury) dressed in rags as a disguise.

They could add new people if these were more crash survivors, especially since they killed off most of the taillies.


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## twincaminferno (Mar 6, 2006)

cvillacci said:


> Did anyone else get the thought that the group of people Michael was describing could be people from the middle section of the plane? It did not sound like 'The Others' that we have either seen on the boat with guns or the professional looking people (performing claires surgury) dressed in rags as a disguise.
> 
> They could add new people if these were more crash survivors, especially since they killed off most of the taillies.


But guarding a metal door with guns?


----------



## twincaminferno (Mar 6, 2006)

twincaminferno said:


> I agree with the previews but the website...I dont know...maybe a seperate topic should have been started for that one.


Nevermind I see they did...duh!!!


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

cvillacci said:


> Did anyone else get the thought that the group of people Michael was describing could be people from the middle section of the plane? It did not sound like 'The Others' that we have either seen on the boat with guns or the professional looking people (performing claires surgury) dressed in rags as a disguise.
> 
> They could add new people if these were more crash survivors, especially since they killed off most of the taillies.


Aren't "our" survivors the people from the middle section of the plane? They had the wing and engines.

In the first episode, Jack, Charlie, and Kate found the cockpit and front part of the plane in the jungle.

I don't think there are any parts of the plane that are unaccounted for.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

cvillacci said:


> Did anyone else get the thought that the group of people Michael was describing could be people from the middle section of the plane? It did not sound like 'The Others' that we have either seen on the boat with guns or the professional looking people (performing claires surgury) dressed in rags as a disguise.
> 
> They could add new people if these were more crash survivors, especially since they killed off most of the taillies.


There are something like 40 survivors from "our" section of the plane and I don't think we've even seen a dozen of them. Lost can add more survivors whenever they want. Remember the high school teacher last year.


----------



## beldar (Feb 27, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Sawyer didn't notice his gun was missing?


He was too busy reloading his other gun.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

beldar said:


> He was too busy reloading his other gun.


He had another gun?? Ohhhhh OOOOOHHHHH


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

lew said:


> There are something like 40 survivors from "our" section of the plane and I don't think we've even seen a dozen of them. Lost can add more survivors whenever they want. Remember the high school teacher last year.


"Dude, you have a little bit of Artz on you."


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

danieljanderson said:


> At some point, I would like to see a bunch of episodes that come from the Other's perspective. Kind of like they did with the tailies.


No no.. pay _no attention_ to the man behind the curtain....


----------



## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

I was also wondering if the whole "there aren't that many of them, we can take them" things was a setup by the Others to fool Michael into thinking that there weren't that many of them. Now I'm thinking, that if Michael *is* one of "them," then maybe _he's_ trying to fool the Losties into a false sense of superiority.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Well, I think there really aren't a lot of others, but they do have a lot of guns.


----------



## Rosenkavalier (Nov 9, 2001)

durl said:


> A few points on Michael:
> 
> - How will he explain the door being unlocked for Henry? AL had the combo, but she was shot while sitting on the couch. You'd think that a woman like her wouldn't open the door then sit on the couch only to be killed. Especially after Henry tried to kill her earlier in the day.
> 
> ...


Here's my walk-through, if I were Michael (based on the moment the episode ended).

-- A-L opened the safe, forced Henry to cut himself loose
-- A-L took out her gun, intended to shoot Henry
-- Henry struggled with A-L, took the gun from her
-- Henry pushed A-L back onto the sofa, then shot her
-- Libby walked in, Henry shot her as well
-- Michael heard the shots, ran to see what was happening
-- Michael & Henry struggled, and Michael was shot in the arm as Henry fled

For me, the only real problem is A-L on the sofa. Will Jack & Locke buy her being there? Will Michael try to move her to a more believable spot for a supposed fight with Henry? Would that leave any obvious clues to be found later?



rizzlebizzle said:


> Did anyone notice the dripping in the background right after Libby got shot? It seemed to be coming from above?


That looked to me to be the same 'dripping water' that I think we've seen in the hatch before.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

For crying out loud!
Libby is not an Other!
(or an ex Other)

I suppose that it's possible that the blood seen on the floor was that bottle of wine she was looking for?

Naaaaa........

BTW, where are all the Ana Lucia haters?
I thought that they would be rejoicing at her death.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Yah, just when it was geting to the point when I could stand AL, she's blown away.


----------



## hyimted (Apr 13, 2003)

JYoung said:


> BTW, where are all the Ana Lucia haters?
> I thought that they would be rejoicing at her death.


lol ... i was thinking that too. her character drove me crazy for most of the show, but i actually felt kinda bad for her!


----------



## durl (Dec 1, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> The rules exist because some people want varying levels of spoiler info. Personally, I watch the previews but avoid anything else, while some don't watch the previews for next week. The rules exist so that those who want to stay blissfully ignorant can, while the rest can highlight the spoiler info for more information.


My apologies. I thought "previews" referred to promos aired during the week, not details given at the end of the program. I figured if you're watching the show, you're watching next week's previews at the end.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

beldar said:


> He was too busy reloading his other gun.


"This is my rifle, that is my gun."


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Anyone else having problems accessing www.lost-media.com today? I'm wanting to look at some screen caps from a last season...


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## canonelan2 (May 11, 2001)

pcguru83 said:


> Anyone else having problems accessing www.lost-media.com today? I'm wanting to look at some screen caps from a last season...


The site is always sluggish the day after a new Lost episode airs.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

JYoung said:


> For crying out loud!
> Libby is not an Other!
> (or an ex Other)
> 
> ...


Actually, I think that's it. (Seriously)

Ana-Lucia - Dead.

Libby - Not dead.

That's my guess. (At least my wishful thinking!)


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

I hope that Libby isn't dead. We got a fair amount of closure on Ana-Lucia with this episode - with Libby we have far more questions than answers.

I'm still trying to figure out Michael's motives for shooting himself. Yes, he was trying to cover-up shooting AL and Libby, and that he let Henry out of the hatch. But why? This means he plans on staying with the Losties rather than returning with Henry to the Others - where presumably Walt is being held. Why would he want to stay - even if the other Losties don't suspect what he did?


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## Cragmyre (Mar 8, 2004)

Hurley was supposed to be getting the wine from Rose and Bernard. Libby was getting the blankets.


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## glumlord (Oct 27, 2003)

MikeMar said:


> If anyone wants it, I peiced together the letter on the hanzo site you get from joops corner that is hidden
> 
> http://i2.tinypic.com/x4rhb9.jpg
> 
> Let me know if it's not large enough


I put it in text/html format on my website..

http://www.glumlord.com/lost/lost.html


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Big_Daddy said:


> I hope that Libby isn't dead. We got a fair amount of closure on Ana-Lucia with this episode - with Libby we have far more questions than answers.
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out Michael's motives for shooting himself. Yes, he was trying to cover-up shooting AL and Libby, and that he let Henry out of the hatch. But why? This means he plans on staying with the Losties rather than returning with Henry to the Others - where presumably Walt is being held. Why would he want to stay - even if the other Losties don't suspect what he did?


some of the possible answers are posted in this thread. but the real answer is, one of those answers, for two weeks or maybe until next season when the writers pull a 180 and jerk us around some more. it might involve hieroglyphics and TRS 80s


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Cragmyre said:


> Hurley was supposed to be getting the wine from Rose and Bernard. Libby was getting the blankets.


Ditto


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

vinniet said:


> RBlount said:
> 
> 
> > vinniet said:
> ...


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## loswald (Jan 2, 2002)

Maybe Michael is "sick" from Danielle's vague description?


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Cragmyre said:


> Hurley was supposed to be getting the wine from Rose and Bernard. Libby was getting the blankets.


Oh... Bugger!


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> Oh... Bugger!


That wouldn't preclude her from finding some in the hatch. 

Or maybe she was getting extra catsup... 
(yeah, that's it, catsup...)


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

JYoung said:


> That wouldn't preclude her from finding some in the hatch.
> 
> Or maybe she was getting extra catsup...
> (yeah, that's it, catsup...)


In any case: Libby is/was not an other!!

(But of course, if she's dead, they'll leave us to debate that issue forever!  )


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Just heard a theory on the Hot 99.5 Lost podcast that


Spoiler



Jack's dad is possibly the "big guy" who is "not a forgiving man". They took that statement he made to A-L that he couldn't forgive his son. Also, his body was not in the casket and yet to be found.


Discuss...

kel

p.s. - spoilerized because unsure of nature of content


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

You know, I don't see this blood around Libby people are talking about.

Here's a screen cap:









Then we cut to Michael's reaction shot, then a closer shot of Libby lying on the floor, then back to Michael, who starts walking toward the vault. We then get this wide shot again:









I just don't see any blood. The red near her stomach is clearly a floor tile.


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## loswald (Jan 2, 2002)

I've never noticed the ping pong table before. Cool


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I don't recall blood either. It might be the dripping that others were wondering about.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Wow...see what happens when you embarass the show by getting caught DWI!
> 
> Holy S**T


They're claiming (obviously) that's not so.

http://community.tvguide.com/forum.jspa?forumID=700000049

Warning - spoilers in that link! (don't want to get yelled at)


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

I don't care what they claim. They feed us deaths on this show like nuggets... one every few months. There's no way they'd kill two new main characters like that... unless it was just to write them off.


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## rimler (Jun 30, 2002)

nataylor said:


> You know, I don't see this blood around Libby people are talking about.
> 
> I just don't see any blood. The red near her stomach is clearly a floor tile.


If you go back and watch it, there's a shadow that looks like liquid flowing away from Libby towards Michael, right after she drops unconscious. But, it is just a shadow from him lowering his arm. I'm sure that's where most people are getting the impression that there was blood.

Michael's first shot was dead on; center of mass, right at the ol' belly-button. Would be a touch-and-go wound in the real world. On an island with limited medical equipment, she's a goner fer sure. The second shot was right under her left breast, and a serious wound also. Both should be fatal...........

.......except this is the island that has healed other people. Will it heal Libby? Or is it too late? Or perhaps she just happened to don some soft body armor to enhance her figure? Time will tell.......... 

Great ending :up:


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> I don't care what they claim. They feed us deaths on this show like nuggets... one every few months. There's no way they'd kill two new main characters like that... unless it was just to write them off.


Michelle Rodriguez said she was told when she was hired that her character would be killed off near the end of the season. There have been rumors on the spoiler boards for months that she was history. I think some characters, like Artz, serve a limited purpose and are gone after that happens.


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

rimler said:


> .......except this is the island that has healed other people. Will it heal Libby? Or is it too late? Or perhaps she just happened to don some soft body armor to enhance her figure? Time will tell..........
> 
> Great ending :up:


Dharma blankets are bulletproof!


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## rimler (Jun 30, 2002)

Yep, the key to the shock value is to convince us that AL was a "main" character, when in truth, she had a very short shelf life. As for Libby, who knows. I'm glad I don't know the details of her contract, cuz that would ruin it.


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## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

Libby's likely dead--another victim of the Hurley-winning-the-lottery curse.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

lew said:


> Michelle Rodriguez said...


Spoiler tags please!!!!!


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

So, does Jack's father take the lead with the greatest number of connections to those on the island?


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## dengel (Oct 19, 2001)

"Dude... nice hole".

d.


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

Big_Daddy said:


> I hope that Libby isn't dead. We got a fair amount of closure on Ana-Lucia with this episode - with Libby we have far more questions than answers.


Man, people on here today don't believe what they see and they have been awfully picky about spoilers.

Ana-Lucia - dead (from episode, final shots edited in, not moving with eyes open)
Libby - dead (from episode, final shot edited in. Logic of the drama. If she says Michael did it, whats the point of the storyline)

**Only evidenced from the episode and logic**

Now as for Libby's backstory:

**Significant spoiler on finale**



Spoiler



Apparently according to TV Guide, the finale will be the backstory of Desmond which will feature Libby.



Additionally on whether Michael was "infected" or "turned":



Spoiler



Two weeks from now will feature the flashback of Michael during his time away.



Additionally, spoiler-nazis will be pleased to know (and the spoiler-junkies will weep) that not even the cast knows the end of the season. The writers have referred to the final scene as "the Challah" following "the Bagel" from last season being the scene of the Others on the boat. The cast won't know anything about that final scene (or if they are even in it) until they are summoned to the set.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

well obviuosly Michael was very curious to hear that Sawyer had all the guns......Sawyer better watch his back.

The "dripping" is something totally seperate from any blood that was or wasn't there. There was something definately dripping from up above. It just seemed out of place and strangely focused on.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Martin Tupper said:


> Spoiler tags please!!!!!


Sorry but I don't see any need to spoiler tag a quote from an actress that refers to something that occurs in an episode that already aired when my post is in a thread that identifies that particular episode in the title.

Anyone who thinks that's a spoiler really can't read *any * disucssions regarding the show.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

lew said:


> Sorry but I don't see any need to spoiler tag a quote from an actress that refers to something that occurs in an episode that already aired when my post is in a thread that identifies that particular episode in the title.
> 
> Anyone who thinks that's a spoiler really can't read *any * disucssions regarding the show.


My first thought as well!!


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Vito the TiVo said:


> spoiler-nazis


The rules on spoilers are spelled out very clearly in the rules section.

I think everyone has been pretty cordial about the unspoilerized spoilers that have been cropping up in the thread.

I don't understand your need to be nasty about people who would only like to read a thread about the show and not have it spoiled for them.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Interesting that no one has pointed this out...the title of this episode (Two for the Road) suggests that both Anna Lucia _and_ Libby died in this episode. Is there something else that I'm missing that the title of this episode suggests?


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

lew said:


> Sorry but I don't see any need to spoiler tag a quote from an actress that refers to something that occurs in an episode that already aired when my post is in a thread that identifies that particular episode in the title.
> 
> Anyone who thinks that's a spoiler really can't read *any * disucssions regarding the show.


I must have missed the part of the show where she was confirmed dead. We know that she was shot. However, at this point based on this and previous episodes, we can only speculate that she dies. Will she die? Realistically, she should. However, Lost isn't always realistic.


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## canonelan2 (May 11, 2001)

Martin Tupper said:


> <snip>However, Lost isn't always realistic.


THANKS FOR SPOILING THAT FOR ME!


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

canonelan2 said:


> THANKS FOR SPOILING THAT FOR ME!


I was referring to previous episodes


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

SeanC said:


> I don't understand your need to be nasty about people who would only like to read a thread about the show and not have it spoiled for them.


Hey, I made fun of the spoiler-junkies, too! Equal Opportunity Offender.


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

Martin Tupper said:


> However, at this point based on this and previous episodes, we can only speculate that she dies. Will she die?


I still think that this is people overthinking this show at times. They are obviously both still and dead within the episode. They even had long beats and shots cut in just so these discussions wouldn't exist.

There is literally nothing this show can do now without being questioned. And that's not a good thing. If someone on the show says they are dead, how do we know they are not lying? If Shannon is buried, how do we know that was really Shannon? How do we know that they're really on an island? How do we know that this is happening now? How do we know that it was really a plane? How do we know that this is really a television show?

There are certain times where you have to simply go with the flow and believe what is presented to you. And unless you don't and have some bizarre theories, nothing else from GMA or Michelle Rodriguez is a spoiler. Michael shot and killed Ana and Libby in the episode and then shot himself. That is what we were presented with. Done.


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

pcguru83 said:


> Interesting that no one has pointed this out...the title of this episode (Two for the Road) suggests that both Anna Lucia _and_ Libby died in this episode. Is there something else that I'm missing that the title of this episode suggests?


It was a road trip for A-L and Jack's Dad.


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

MitchO said:


> It was a road trip for A-L and Jack's Dad.


And they were drunk all the time. And people like to think that its the producers' having a joke about the DUIs.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

MitchO said:


> It was a road trip for A-L and Jack's Dad.


Yeah, I considered that, but was it really a road trip? I mean they had to _fly_ to Sydney. But I suppose the title could have a double meaning...


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Just to be fair, it's no spoiler that Ana Lucia is dead. She was shot in the heart. It's not really a spoiler to talk about her being dead. Libby's outcome, on the other hand, better not be discussed untagged. : P


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

Killing off two of the tailees (Assuming they are both dead) at this point kind of makes this whole season seem like a waste. As much as they have been trying to establish back storys for them and integrate them into the on going stories and characters, bumping them off now sort of makes half this season look irrelevant now.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Vito the TiVo said:


> There are certain times where you have to simply go with the flow and believe what is presented to you. And unless you don't and have some bizarre theories, nothing else from GMA or Michelle Rodriguez is a spoiler. Michael shot and killed Ana and Libby in the episode and then shot himself. That is what we were presented with. Done.


There's also nothing to guarantee what she says is anything related to the truth. It could just as readily be intentionally misleading.

I'm really finding it increasingly tiring even bothering to just read these threads; they seem to be 50% complaining about spoilers, 40% repetition because people won't read 200 posts before posting themselves, and 10% thoughtful discussion.

Perhaps we need a vBulletin mod that lets people vote no each post identifying if it has spoilers or not and then spoiler-sensitive people will be blocked from seeing it by default unless it has a minimum number of "not a spoiler" votes as well as a minimum percentage of "not a spoiler votes".


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Vito the TiVo said:


> I still think that this is people overthinking this show at times. They are obviously both still and dead within the episode. They even had long beats and shots cut in just so these discussions wouldn't exist.


To you it seems it was obvious, to others it may not be. After last night's show, I was of the opinion that at least one of the two will end up dead, but not necessarily both. You obviously saw different, just a difference on how we interrupt the show.



> There is literally nothing this show can do now without being questioned. And that's not a good thing.


Last I checked, that was part of the "fun" of the show. So many questions, so few answers. If I wanted neat tie ups at the end of each episode, I would watch CSI.



> If someone on the show says they are dead, how do we know they are not lying? If Shannon is buried, how do we know that was really Shannon? How do we know that they're really on an island? How do we know that this is happening now? How do we know that it was really a plane? How do we know that this is really a television show?


If Sayid buries Shannon, yea she's probably dead.

If Jack says "She's dead". yea she's probably dead.

If I she a half-second shot of somebody lying on the couch/floor, she may be dead or she may be unconcious.



> There are certain times where you have to simply go with the flow and believe what is presented to you. And unless you don't and have some bizarre theories, nothing else from GMA or Michelle Rodriguez is a spoiler. Michael shot and killed Ana and Libby in the episode and then shot himself. That is what we were presented with. Done.


I believe what was presented to me. AL and Libby were shot and "potentially" dead. Any outside information that confirms or denies this, is a spoiler and does ruin the anticipation.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I realize that it's a long shot but the way Libby was carrying the blankets may help.
If they were thick, heavy blankets and she had them folded over multiple times, that might have made enough layers to slow down the bullets enough.
At least to prevent fatal injury.


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

RBlount said:


> I believe what was presented to me. AL and Libby were shot and "potentially" dead. Any outside information that confirms or denies this, is a spoiler and does ruin the anticipation.


I understand what you are saying, but you're inherently disbelieving what you see rather than believing. We were presented with them being killed. Potentially they are alive or are robots or come back as zombies. But there is nothing presented in the show (or elsewhere) to indicate that they are not dead.

Have you considered every LOST theory that was shot down by the producers a spoiler? Like when they said they were'nt in purgatory, etc? I just don't comprehend how a confirmation of someone saying "Yes, what you saw is what you really saw" a spoiler in anyway.

Don't tell me there's a season three! I don't want to spoil the anticipation for the end of the year!


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

JYoung said:


> I realize that it's a long shot but the way Libby was carrying the blankets may help.
> If they were thick, heavy blankets and she had them folded over multiple times, that might have made enough layers to slow down the bullets enough.
> At least to prevent fatal injury.


Preventing a fatal injury from the initial shooting is one thing, but operating to repair the damage is another. If shes not already dead, she's gotta be circling the drain. Perhaps they'll have her mumble a few lines about Michael shooting her before she walks into the light


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## maochengster (Mar 16, 2006)

I'll go on record as saying...

1) Libby ain't dead
2) Libby is an other


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

lew said:


> Michael is saying the others don't have many guns and can be attacked easily. Sounds like an ambush to me.


Michael said he saw guards at the entrance to a hatch. Wouldn't whatever guns they have be inside the hatch when nothing's going on? So how would he know what they have. Also could be lots of people in the hatch. So even if they don't know they can't trust him, his info sounds shady. Plus as someone said, Kate and Jack know about the fake beards etc. Has the idea that there is more than 1 group of others that we keep talking about ever been voiced by anyone on the show? I guess that would involve discussing stuff, which they never do.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

My take is that Michael was told he could have Walt back if he led his group into an ambush.


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## Mike20878 (Jun 8, 2001)

Was the voice in the Hanso commercial that of Carlton Cuse? I thought I recognized his voice from the podcasts.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

I loved this episode. I replayed anna lucia being shot over and over. My second most hated character on TV is dead. Now if grey's writers could kill off alex for me it would be a perfect TV season. I feel bad for hurley the big guy finally found a woman and looks like she is dead. I guess his string of bad luck continues since he won the lottery. Anna is dead woot what a great episoe.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

vikingguy said:


> I loved this episode. I replayed anna lucia being shot over and over. My second most hated character on TV is dead. Now if grey's writers could kill off alex for me it would be a perfect TV season. I feel bad for hurley the big guy finally found a woman and looks like she is dead. I guess his string of bad luck continues since he won the lottery. Anna is dead woot what a great episoe.


Only thing missing in this perfection was Jack being killed in the previews.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

pcguru83 said:


> Interesting that no one has pointed this out...the title of this episode (Two for the Road) suggests that both Anna Lucia _and_ Libby died in this episode. Is there something else that I'm missing that the title of this episode suggests?


I am certainly someone 

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4000956&&#post4000956

-smak-


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## thatmeowgirl (Oct 8, 2004)

Vito the TiVo said:


> **Significant spoiler on finale**
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Additional spoiler info to support your spoiler:


Spoiler



In flashback that is set in 2000 in L.A., Libby buys Desmond coffee.



Spoliers for next week:



Spoiler



Lindelof & Cuse: the question-mark episode is about finding out what that question mark on that map means. That episode is a great opportunity for us to finally put Locke and Mr. Eko together, sort of a philosophical battle of faith and will that we've been hinting at all season long. [It started] back when Eko gave Locke that film that he brought across in that hollowed-out Bible, [and] this is sort of the next step in their relationship. -Ask Ausiello @ TV Guide


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## eugene82 (Mar 31, 2006)

Vito the TiVo said:


> I still think that this is people overthinking this show at times. They are obviously both still and dead within the episode. They even had long beats and shots cut in just so these discussions wouldn't exist.
> 
> There is literally nothing this show can do now without being questioned. And that's not a good thing. If someone on the show says they are dead, how do we know they are not lying? If Shannon is buried, how do we know that was really Shannon? How do we know that they're really on an island? How do we know that this is happening now? How do we know that it was really a plane? How do we know that this is really a television show?
> 
> There are certain times where you have to simply go with the flow and believe what is presented to you. And unless you don't and have some bizarre theories, nothing else from GMA or Michelle Rodriguez is a spoiler. Michael shot and killed Ana and Libby in the episode and then shot himself. That is what we were presented with. Done.


We were presented with the certain death of AL. It is still unknown about Libby, although I agree that it seemed that Libby died on the spot. I could mention one line by Kate that suggests only AL is dead. And a certain person who looked very worried when a quote is make.
I shall not do so because of the spolier rule. 
As for Michael shooting both AL and Libby only to then shot himself is very simple.
There are possibly three things going on. Number one, he was brainwashed by one of the Dharma initiaves, number two, he is leading the surviours into a trap which would mean their capture could draw back viewers, change the storyline yet become more interesting. As it is there seems to be camp warfare which to me is getting boring.
The 3rd thing seems logical and even obvious. That being instilling motivation so all will finally band together not to mention going after Walt. But killing off the others would seem to really change the storyline. ??
I think the one thing that we know for certain is that the search has been on for the surviours for some time. AL was seen on her cell telling her Mom she wanted to go back home. To which she replied, "I'll be waiting for you, as she jotted down the flights number. 
Search teams showing up on the island would be greeted as hostiles by the others but they could very well be coming in season 3
which may make the story more interesting should the surviours be captured.
I may be wrong but it also seemed to me that Michael was almost being forced by some stange power to shoot AL and especially Libby. Gale seemed to understand exactly what was going on but that is the nature of this show. It's hard to see a twist coming.
This is only my opinion which may be incorrect in every possible manner. I mean, twists come and twists go, all of which motivate me to tune in each week. I would never haved dreamed of how the show turned out last night. I was just beginning to like AL and Libby and still can hardly believe that Michael was the tratior among the group.
I now wonder if Hurley goes ballistic and winds up almost insane. He was just beginning to escape his boredom. Libby being the main reason. 
Eugene


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

durl said:


> ...I figured if you're watching the show, you're watching next week's previews at the end.


Not so...many of us deliberately AVOID previews.


----------



## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

Wow, something actually _happened_ in this episode. Of course it was just in the final 30 seconds, but still. Color me amazed.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> Not so...many of us deliberately AVOID previews.


Yeah, if they watched them they would have less to complain about here.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

As soon as Michael asked for the gun, I knew he was going to shoot Ana Lucia. He has a deal with the others to bring back the dude for his son or something.

Funny the 2 people that died were the DUI chicks. JJ Abrams was just on Howard Stern this week. He asked JJ if they were thinking about dumping the girls after their little problem. JJ said no and then a couple days later, they get shot.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

One other very important thing happened in this episode: Jack finally apologized for being stupid. It's actually Jack who is going to feel the worst (aside from those receiving lead, that is) because it was his piss-poor leadership skills that got them where they are now. 

Where's your army now? And your general is dead! And can you imagine if he finds out AL was with his father in Australia? He's gonna need a moment or two alone, boys.

Locke didn't let him off the hook real easy, either. And despite the gun pointed at Sawyer, the writers let the O.K. Corral situation slide without an ending. Would Jack have shot him? Would Sawyer have given in? I'm guessing no and no.

Headstrong surgeons aren't good leaders. Look at M*A*S*H*.  

I also think that this answers the question of whether Michael just showed up, or was he sent back to the losties by the Others.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Is anyone thinking maybe Michael was telling the truth? I think there are two groups of Others. The boat-having, fake beard-wearing, medical facility-occupying Others and the ratty-clothes wearing, barefoot-having, towing children-around Others.

Now maybe he has a deal with one group, and maybe he doesn't. But I think it's possible there really is a group of 22 living in tents, eating dried fish, and guarding a hatch.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Just watched the show (no time Wednesday night) and the recording cut off right after Michael says "I'm sorry" and AL replies "What for?" The prozac is kicking in, so I should be able to continue this post. 

One thing that struck me, which I have not heard mentioned yet, is that Michael seemed genuinely surprised about "Gale", and that he hatched his plan (to shoot AL and himself, and let "Gale" go) right then and there. In other words, he did not have any clear directions from "The Others". 

When AL told him they'd capture one of them he was quite curious about how long he'd been there. Perhaps knowing how long "Gale" was captured led him to figuring out who "Gale" was. Perhaps (really theorizing here) during his time with "The Others" he'd heard about their numero uno being missing -- about a week ago -- and he decided that if he helped him escape that Walt would be returned to him. 

All that said, it's still not logical to shoot anyone. He could have just held AL up (like he did with Jack and John before he went "Rambo") and let "Gale" go. No-one hurt, he'd be in trouble, of course, but, after all, he would only have been attempting to do what Jack was thinking, too (i.e. exchange "Gale" for Walt).


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Delta13 said:


> One other very important thing happened in this episode: Jack finally apologized for being stupid. It's actually Jack who is going to feel the worst (aside from those receiving lead, that is) because it was his piss-poor leadership skills that got them where they are now.


I disagree. It's definitely going to be Locke that gets the blame for this fiasco. If he hadn't covered up the fact that AL had been attacked by Gale--lying YET AGAIN!! do these people never learn?!?!--then she never would have been left alone with him, and so on. And, Locke lied about it _after_ Jack admitted he was wrong and apologized. No excuses.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

philw1776 said:


> Only thing missing in this perfection was Jack being killed in the previews.


By revealing content of a preview you have violated the rules of this forum and the laws of several states. Please use the spoiler tag when you reveal such content. Thank you.


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## rhuntington3 (May 1, 2001)

WOW!!!!


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## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

Someone mentioned the pool of blood (not the water behind, but blood) spreading from Libby after she hit the floor. Well, I just re-watched it and it does look like blood at first glance. However, after re-watching it in slow-mo, it is clearly Michael's shadow!

So there isn't a conformation of a life-threatening shot. 

However, using Hollywood's standard sign of a dead person (open, motionless eyes), AL is definitely dead!


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

madscientist said:


> I disagree. It's definitely going to be Locke that gets the blame for this fiasco. If he hadn't covered up the fact that AL had been attacked by Gale--lying YET AGAIN!! do these people never learn?!?!--then she never would have been left alone with him, and so on. And, Locke lied about it _after_ Jack admitted he was wrong and apologized. No excuses.


You've confused cause with effect. The actions in this episode were effects from previous actions. Mistrust, lies, disrespect, and "loop" issues all came home with a bang. To wit, AL wasn't very forthcoming either, was she? That's because the Losties have some now apparently fatal trust and communication issues.

Many here have mentioned that Jack and Kate should have known that Michael's story was a bit odd, since they knew about the fake beards and such. Do you think that if AL knew about *that* she would have trusted Michael with the gun? 

And why was Michael alone with AL in the hatch? Because Jack the Headstrong Boy Scout was going to go git da guns, go git da boy, and ride off into the sunset. No discussion, no plan, no clue. (Sawyer should have told him to "git".)


----------



## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

Put me in the boat with the Libby isn't dead and isn't an Other crowd.
My speculation is that she is unconscious for now, then the final scene of the final episode Jack and his army are about to enter the doors Michael talked about, cut back to the hatch where Libby wakes up, Hurley tells her what is going on and she says "No! Michael is the one who shot us!" Cut back to Jack opening the door. Lost.
Okay probably won't happen that way, but I suspect she isn't gone yet. Could be, who knows, but I somewhat doubt it at present.


----------



## PhantomDilbert (Nov 6, 2005)

You hear Kate say "she's dead" in the preview, not "they are dead." Then again she could be speaking about one only...who knows.

I love the conspiracy theories. Reminds me of when people thought Shannon was stabbed...not really shot... =)


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

One other thing I noticed, unless it was an error...

The Lost Logo that signals the end of an episode was silent (no muted percussion). First time that this has happened, if I recall correctly.

Is this going to be something like 24's "Silent Clock?"


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Was it quiet for Shannon? Or for Boone?

I thought for Shannon's death someone mentioned it quiet too.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

PhantomDilbert said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ruh roh .... you're in big trouble ....


----------



## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

PhantomDilbert said:


> You hear Kate say


People *****ing all thread about the complete lack of spolier tags, spoiler tag rules, etc and you come along and post that.. did you even bother reading the rules or just feel like they dont apply to you?


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

I think this ending might get these people to actually start considering Russo's "sickness" theory.

I don't believe Michael made up the story of what he saw, though. From the scenes with the tailies near the beginning of this season, living in tents in ratty clothes doesn't seem far off. Probably much like our camp, a group lives outside the protected hatch Michael mentioned, and another small group spends most of the time in there.

I'm with a few other posters in here: I have hated AL all season long, but her death was so shocking that I, too, felt bad for her. I guess I wasn't as ready for her to die as I thought.

Jack will be blaming Locke for this. The whole "We're going to have a Locke problem" from last season and the buildup of their trust issues this past month might finally payoff in those two truly being driven apart. Plus, Locke might be looking to join Gale on the otherside after what Gale told him about being one of the "good" ones.

Looking forward to this post being lost in the spoiler-fest discussion.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Phew.....just finished reading the thread. 

I finished watching this episode this morning. All I can say is HFC!

Great episode. Can't wait for next week.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

eugene82 said:


> I shall not do so because of the spolier rule.


Two things: You just broke the spoiler rule and if you want to talk about spoilers, feel free. Just use the spoiler tags. [ spoiler ] put words here [ /spoiler ] without the spaces.


PhantomDilbert said:


> Spoiler deleted spoiler deleted spoiler deleted


I hope you get kicked off the forum, Dilbert.

Why do I feel like the spoiler police. Why do we have such a huge influx of rude people this week?


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

nataylor said:


> Is anyone thinking maybe Michael was telling the truth? I think there are two groups of Others. The boat-having, fake beard-wearing, medical facility-occupying Others and the ratty-clothes wearing, barefoot-having, towing children-around Others.
> 
> Now maybe he has a deal with one group, and maybe he doesn't. But I think it's possible there really is a group of 22 living in tents, eating dried fish, and guarding a hatch.


I used to think there were two groups of others until the episode "Maternity Leave" aired. Now I'm pretty sure there's only one group. They dress up "primitive" when they are in a position where the losties will see them.

Remember in this episode we saw that Kate found lockers full of ratty dirty clothes in the "medical" hatch, along with theatrical makeup, theatrical glue, and a fake Zeke beard.

We also see Zeke/Mr. Friendly in one of this episode's flashbacks clean shaven and wearing a clean shirt and pants. This strongly implies that the beard Kate saw is part of his "disguise".

I believe that the "others" are a group of people associated with Hanso/Dharma. They have access to relatively advanced technology, electricity, boat(s), fuel for the boat(s), a steady stream of supplies (as do the Losties, apparently), *WEAPONS*, and probably regular contact with the outside world.

I suspect the "him" that we heard Ethan and Zeke talk about in Maternity leave and heard Henry mention several times is a Hanso representative who lives in the outside world and visits the island periodically to check on the progress of the "others".

"Him" might be Alvar Hanso himself. Or, it may be another "executive" of the Hanso Foundation. One personal favorite candidate I have for who "him" will turn out to be is Dr. Candle (the narrator of the orientation film). The writers/director went through the trouble of giving Dr. Candle a prosthetic arm. This was a writers device to make him more memorable, IMHO. (It may have other implications too.) This is to make it easier to immediately recognize him when we see him again. Maybe not as "him", but just another other. I'm convinced we'll eventually meet Dr. Candle "in the flesh". Maybe the Degroots too (if we haven't, in fact, seen them already).


----------



## Jeff_in_Bklyn (Apr 26, 2003)

I think Libby is _mostly _dead


----------



## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Jeff_in_Bklyn said:


> I think Libby is _mostly _dead


Well, let's hope that Jack has access to one of those fire stoking thingies.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Delta13 said:


> You've confused cause with effect. The actions in this episode were effects from previous actions. Mistrust, lies, disrespect, and "loop" issues all came home with a bang. To wit, AL wasn't very forthcoming either, was she?


It's clear from the look AL gave Locke that she was surprised that he didn't want to tell Jack, and she just followed his lead. What's she going to do, say "hey John, why are you lying? We both know Henry tried to strangle me!" But anyway, that's beside the point.



Delta13 said:


> That's because the Losties have some now apparently fatal trust and communication issues.
> 
> Many here have mentioned that Jack and Kate should have known that Michael's story was a bit odd, since they knew about the fake beards and such. Do you think that if AL knew about *that* she would have trusted Michael with the gun?
> 
> And why was Michael alone with AL in the hatch? Because Jack the Headstrong Boy Scout was going to go git da guns, go git da boy, and ride off into the sunset. No discussion, no plan, no clue. (Sawyer should have told him to "git".)


You are reaching pretty far here. First, Jack _DID_ discuss it with Locke, and Locke agreed with the plan. Both he and Kate were willing participants--in fact both wanted to go with Jack. Second, there is no question that the most immediate reason AL was alone in the hatch with Henry and Michael is Locke's lie, and it will be obvious to everyone else as well. If AL was alive she would get the blame "for letting Henry get away" (remember this will be Michael's story): since she isn't the next in line, blame-wise, is unquestionably Locke. Yes, all the lostaways lie to each other and keep secrets from each other, but this particular lie is the one that got people seriously hurt and killed.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Jeff_in_Bklyn said:


> I think Libby is _mostly _dead


I think she feeeeels happeeeeeeyyy...... she feeelllss happeeeeey...
and she thinks she'll go for a walk!


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Total techno-geek/effects-nerd observation:

When they were togather in Australia, Jack's dad and AL were driving around in a rental Ford Taurus with the steering wheel on the right.

Question for the nerds:

Did they obtain a real right-hand-drive (Australian spec.) Taurus, or did they use a US spec Taurus and reverse the shot?

I think they did the latter (US spec Taurus, reversed shot).

Notice when they are in the car, you never see the dashboard, license plate, or anything with writing on it, that would give away the reversed shot.

Just a nerdy observation, back to the thread...


----------



## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

pcguru83 said:


> Yeah, I considered that, but was it really a road trip? I mean they had to _fly_ to Sydney. But I suppose the title could have a double meaning...


Well, they had to fly to most of the locations of the old "On the Road To ..." movies. I took it as a Hope/Crosby reference. It was Hope and Crosby, right? ~


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Total techno-geek/effects-nerd observation:
> 
> When they were togather in Australia, Jack's dad and AL were driving around in a rental Ford Taurus with the steering wheel on the right.
> 
> ...


Funny. I was thinking the same thing during that scene. Reversed shot.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Fish Man said:


> Notice when they are in the car, you never see the dashboard, license plate, or anything with writing on it, that would give away the reversed shot.
> 
> Just a nerdy observation, back to the thread...


So you mean, continuity wise, they did something _right?_ With all the nitpicking going on, it's good to talk about.


----------



## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

smak said:


> I am certainly someone
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4000956&&#post4000956
> 
> -smak-


Oooo, my first smeek!!  Missed that somehow...


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> We also see Zeke/Mr. Friendly in one of this episode's flashbacks clean shaven and wearing a clean shirt and pants. This strongly implies that the beard Kate saw is part of his "disguise".


Yup, but I'm thinking about when someone (was it Michael?) saw the barefooted people walking through the jungle, wearing ratty clothes, with a child dragging along a teddy bear. I don't think those people are with Zeke and his group. I think they might be the "primitive" ones Michael saw. Hence, two groups of Others.


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## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

> Did they obtain a real right-hand-drive (Australian spec.) Taurus, or did they use a US spec Taurus and reverse the shot?


1. They are in Hawaii, already half way to Australia .
2. It is very common to ship cars to/from Hawaii, so it wouldnt be such a big deal. (though, most of it happens by boat and takes a long of time).
3. IIRC, the bar in the outside appears to be in the same orientation as before. So unless they have been filming it flipped from the beginning, this is probably an RHD car.


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## kdonnel (Nov 28, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> Did they obtain a real right-hand-drive (Australian spec.) Taurus, or did they use a US spec Taurus and reverse the shot?
> 
> I think they did the latter (US spec Taurus, reversed shot).


My mailman drives a right hand drive taurus wagon. It would not be that difficult to find a right hand drive car.


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> Did they obtain a real right-hand-drive (Australian spec.) Taurus, or did they use a US spec Taurus and reverse the shot?


Good call. Look at this screen:








Check out the justification on the airbag warning label on the visor. It looks like it's right-justified, which makes no sense. So it was probably revered. Funny thing is, they covered up the Ford logo on the steering wheel so you can't see it's reversed, but they missed the this warning label.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Was it quiet for Shannon? Or for Boone?
> I thought for Shannon's death someone mentioned it quiet too.


Tony should have gotten the silent timer. Oh, and Han shot first.

Or just shot, as is the case, since Greedo didn't. Shoot.

Greg


----------



## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

nataylor said:


> Yup, but I'm thinking about when someone (was it Michael?) saw the barefooted people walking through the jungle, wearing ratty clothes, with a child dragging along a teddy bear. I don't think those people are with Zeke and his group. I think they might be the "primitive" ones Michael saw. Hence, two groups of Others.


The guy who AL killed said "children are safe", therefore suggesting that his group took the children. Plus, he was the one who helped them compile the list.

Henry Gale said that AL killed 2 of "his people", and that Zeke is "no one important", thus suggesting that he is connected to the people that tailies dealt with in their original camp.

All pointing to just one set of "Others".

Unless the children that we saw walking barefoot were not same as we saw on the plane, there is only one set of "Others", that we have seen so far...

I am sure that must have been mentioned before, but isnt it convenient that the Others had spies stationed at both crash sites, ready to infiltrate the Losties?


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## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

danplaysbass said:


> I don't think Libby dies (they've invested a lot into her backstory recently) but how do you survive 2 torso shots without a hospital?


Good point...Maybe she could survive if they had a hatch with a hospital wing? Maybe Kate will "remember" that the hatch wasn't quite as empty as she thought and Libby will be rushed there and Wonder Boy Jack will fix her.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

nataylor said:


> Good call. Look at this screen:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great catch! :up:

BTW: The letter carrier that delivers to my office drives a right hand drive Chevy Lumina that I think _she owns!_

The letter carrier that delivers to my neighborhood drives a left hand drive car and has to lean across the passenger seat to reach the mailboxes (on Saturday's she sometimes brings her daughter with her to sit in the passenger seat and reach the boxes).

I'm still getting used to this "small town living". 

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand...

Sure, it would be _possible_ to dig up a right hand drive Taurus in Hawaii. But I suspect it would be *simpler* to simply use any car that the model might be believably a rental in Australia, reverse the shot, and be reasonably careful about the photography to avoid any obvious clues to the shot being reversed.


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## durl (Dec 1, 2005)

Spoiler



I know something that others don't because I watch the full 60 minutes.


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## quaz_the_panther (Aug 18, 2005)

wprager said:


> One thing that struck me, which I have not heard mentioned yet, is that Michael seemed genuinely surprised about "Gale", and that he hatched his plan (to shoot AL and himself, and let "Gale" go) right then and there. In other words, he did not have any clear directions from "The Others".


Ditto the above. He seemed very surprised that someone was being held, and where they were being held.

Tammy


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## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

I still don't know whether there are two groups of "others" or just one. I know the medical folks like to dress down in their disguises now and then, but that doesn't preclude the existence of the barefoot/dirty "others."

That said, if there ARE two groups of others, then how about this... Michael met up with the Zeke others. They make him a deal, as others have said. But their motivation isn't necessarily to get Henry back, it's to be sure that the Losties go to War with the Barefoots.

Something shocking would be necessary for the 40 odd losties to line up and go to war. Their complacency has already been demonstrated in the episode where no one wants to help build a giant sign to get off the island. They're comfotable. They've settled in. They feel bad for Michael, but they're not going to risk war for it... unless attacked.

Like I said, I'm not sold on there being 2 groups of others, but if there are, I think this is possible.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

DVDerek said:


> I still don't know whether there are two groups of "others" or just one. I know the medical folks like to dress down in their disguises now and then, but that doesn't preclude the existence of the barefoot/dirty "others."
> 
> That said, if there ARE two groups of others, then how about this... Michael met up with the Zeke others. They make him a deal, as others have said. But their motivation isn't necessarily to get Henry back, it's to be sure that the Losties go to War with the Barefoots.
> 
> ...


To add to that, if there are TWO groups

Zeke'ies tell Michael to attack barefoots, they sent 10-15 people armed and attack, leaving the rest of them (random people and weak ones and claire and baby) unguarded. Zeke and them walk on it and either kill or take all of them, or a mix.

Classic, send them this way and go that way and flank them move


----------



## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

Rosenkavalier said:


> For me, the only real problem is A-L on the sofa. Will Jack & Locke buy her being there? Will Michael try to move her to a more believable spot for a supposed fight with Henry? Would that leave any obvious clues to be found later?


I would think there might be bullet holes in the sofa which would be hard to explain if the body is moved.

KD


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Wow...first time I'm hearing that we all don't agree there aren't 2 groups of "others". I always thought we were in agreement that there were 2 groups: the primitave people with ratty clothes and no shoes, and then Zeke's crew that are wearing regular clothes and the beards.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

kdelande said:


> I would think there might be bullet holes in the sofa which would be hard to explain if the body is moved.
> 
> KD


Ehhh just say that Henry went on a shooting spree and shot the couch for no reason


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

pmyers said:


> Wow...first time I'm hearing that we all don't agree there aren't 2 groups of "others". I always thought we were in agreement that there were 2 groups: the primitave people with ratty clothes and no shoes, and then Zeke's crew that are wearing regular clothes and the beards.


There's not enough evidence for me to say that I definitely think there are two groups of others. I think there is a very real possibility that there are 2 totally seperate factions, but there are just as many ways that they could be part of 1 big group.


----------



## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

Vito the TiVo said:


> I understand what you are saying, but you're inherently disbelieving what you see rather than believing. We were presented with them being killed.


I disagree. We were presented with them both being *shot*. We were also presented with AL appearing dead with the infamous glossy eyes, mouth open pose on the couch and Libby in a clump on the floor.

Based on this, I say yes AL dead, Libby, not so much.

KD


----------



## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

Mike20878 said:


> Was the voice in the Hanso commercial that of Carlton Cuse? I thought I recognized his voice from the podcasts.


Quick scan, didn't see this answered yet.

Yes, it was Carlton Cuse's voice over in the Hanso ad.

KD


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

nataylor said:


> Good call. Look at this screen:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's an even better example: http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x20-two/4a/2fortheroad-cap352.jpg

You can clearly see that the writing is reversed on the airbag warning label.

Also, here's a grab from a scene inside the car: http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x20-two/4a/2fortheroad-cap369.jpg

Here's one from inside the hatch: http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x20-two/5/2fortheroad-cap404.jpg

Ana has a mole on her left cheek in the car, but on her right cheek in the hatch.


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## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

MikeMar said:


> Ehhh just say that Henry went on a shooting spree and shot the couch for no reason


With blood stains surrounding the holes, as is likely?

KD


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

getbak said:


> Here's an even better example: http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x20-two/4a/2fortheroad-cap352.jpg
> 
> You can clearly see that the writing is reversed on the airbag warning label.
> 
> ...


DING DING DING DING DING!!!

We have a winner. Conclusively proven: Reversed shots.

BTW, they did some _really creative_ editing as Christian Shepard gets out of the car to go into the bar (all from memory, but I think it's pretty close):

From inside the car we see him open the door, hitting Sawyer ("Hey! I'm walkin' here!"  ), step out (all reversed shot).

Then cut to exterior shot of him stepping out with the bar in the background (not reversed shot, but the camera angle carefully hides the steering wheel and dashboard -- he is actually stepping out of the *driver's side* in the exterior shot), walk around the car, and toward the bar. All camera angles carefully not showing the dash or steering wheel of the car! :up:

We must be an editor's, cinematographer's, and continuity person's worst nightmare!


----------



## EMoMoney (Oct 30, 2001)

super dave said:


> They gotta stop killing off the hot chicks!


I'm not convinced Libby was killed.


----------



## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> We must be an editor's, cinematographer's, and continuity person's worst nightmare!


Well, especially when the decision is to fake a RHD car as opposed to actually getting a RHD car.


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> We must be an editor's, cinematographer's, and continuity person's worst nightmare!


Also, as they pull up to the bar, the sign is visable while we can see AL driving (with a shot from the passenger's seat through the driver's side window). They must have built a mirrored version of the "Coktail Bar" sign, I think.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

pmyers said:


> Wow...first time I'm hearing that we all don't agree there aren't 2 groups of "others". I always thought we were in agreement that there were 2 groups: the primitave people with ratty clothes and no shoes, and then Zeke's crew that are wearing regular clothes and the beards.


No way, I've never believed there were two groups of others and I think it's ridiculous to think that there is _especially after the show telegraphed to us that those are the same people._

It is common consensus that the Others who attacked the people from the tail section are the same others that Zeke comes from. Goodwin and Ethan are both from the same group. The little blond girl that appeared with Ana-Lucia in the promotional shots had that teddy bear that we saw one of the barefoot Others carrying (and it may have been her.) But when they had Kate go into the medical hatch and find the costumes, I thought that would've put an end to this argument. The barefoot others are the same as the beach others are the same as the hatch others are the same as the boat others.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

nataylor said:


> Also, as they pull up to the bar, the sign is visable while we can see AL driving (with a shot from the passenger's seat through the driver's side window). They must have built a mirrored version of the "Coktail Bar" sign, I think.


I guess I'll have to re-watch.

If they did indeed build a mirrored sign, the entire sequence I described above (including Jack's dad walking toward the bar) may have been reversed shots. (Easier to just make one sign.)


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

NoThru22 said:


> No way, I've never believed there were two groups of others and I think it's ridiculous to think that there is _especially after the show telegraphed to us that those are the same people._
> 
> It is common consensus that the Others who attacked the people from the tail section are the same others that Zeke comes from. Goodwin and Ethan are both from the same group. The little blond girl that appeared with Ana-Lucia in the promotional shots had that teddy bear that we saw one of the barefoot Others carrying (and it may have been her.) But when they had Kate go into the medical hatch and find the costumes, I thought that would've put an end to this argument. The barefoot others are the same as the beach others are the same as the hatch others are the same as the boat others.


My theory of the other drawing them all away and then attacking the rest of them still remains. Whether they send them to attack a 2nd group of others, or they send them to no where, or a part of their group don't change my idea of the drawing away


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> No way, I've never believed there were two groups of others and I think it's ridiculous to think that there is *especially after the show telegraphed to us that those are the same people.* [Emphasis added by Fish Man]
> 
> It is common consensus that the Others who attacked the people from the tail section are the same others that Zeke comes from. Goodwin and Ethan are both from the same group. The little blond girl that appeared with Ana-Lucia in the promotional shots had that teddy bear that we saw one of the barefoot Others carrying (and it may have been her.) But when they had Kate go into the medical hatch and find the costumes, I thought that would've put an end to this argument. The barefoot others are the same as the beach others are the same as the hatch others are the same as the boat others.


Agreed.

I was of the opinion there were two groups of others *until the episode "Maternity Leave".* The writers indeed "telegraphed" to us that the "dirty" others were simply the sophisticated others in disguise.

Unless there really is also a group of "dirty" others and the sophisticated others sometimes masquerade as them.

But, no. That's super unlikely because:

We saw evidence of the kidnapped tailie children with apparently "dirty" others.

But, "Maternity Leave" made it clear that the sophisticated others want children. So, when we saw the kidnapped children with "dirty" others, they were the sophisticated others in their "dirty" disguises.

Henry is clearly one of the "sophisticated" others. He knew who Jack was talking about when he mentioned, "The man with the beard." Of course, we now know, as surely does Henry, that the "beard" is fake. Henry knows about Walt (meaning the sophisticated others have him). Henry talks about how they want the "good ones". Goodwin mentioned this too.

One group of "others", who wear disguises.

So, this all begs the question: Is Michael now in cahoots with them, or did they "fool" Michael with their unsophisticated disguises?

Is this "camp" that Michael describes part of the disguise, and he was fooled into thinking they are not strong? Or, did Michael get completely taken in by them, knows damn well they are powerful, and has come back to lead the losties into ambush?


----------



## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> No way, I've never believed there were two groups of others and I think it's ridiculous to think that there is _especially after the show telegraphed to us that those are the same people._


Easy, pal. Rediculous? I'm pretty sure there have been some things telegraphed before that didn't turn out the way we all expected. Now I'm openly hoping for multiple groups of others... 



> It is common consensus that the Others who attacked the people from the tail section are the same others that Zeke comes from. Goodwin and Ethan are both from the same group. The little blond girl that appeared with Ana-Lucia in the promotional shots had that teddy bear that we saw one of the barefoot Others carrying (and it may have been her.)


Good job. Your point?



> But when they had Kate go into the medical hatch and find the costumes, I thought that would've put an end to this argument.


One time, on Halloween in my case, I dressed up as a football player. But guess what? I wasn't a football player. Further, me dressing as a football player but not actually being one did not preclude football players from existing.

I'm not saying I think there are two groups, but it's still a possibility. Stop being so obtuse.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

There's another theory - that this was a completely off-the-cuff plan that Michael came up with. He didn't know anything about who had the guns, or that AL had one. He didn't know about Henry. And everyone was gone. He didn't know AL wanted to kill Henry. There's no way this was preplanned exactly as it turned out, in my opinion. It's why Michael stared at the gun for so long before turning on AL.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

EMoMoney said:


> I'm not convinced Libby was killed.


You don't think Michelle R is a hot chick?


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

2 belly buttons turn me off.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

I have trouble accepting Michael's desperation to do anything for Walt.

He was clearly depicted as a bad father. Even though he fought for custody with his ex when she planned to move to another continent, he basically gave up when he was taken to the other side of the world _(see the analogy with being taken to the other side of the island?)_.

Even Walt never really had a chance to bond with him, as he seemed to accept guidance from Locke over that of Michael -- who struggled to find ways to communicate genuinely with his son. They really were as much strangers to each other as they were to everybody else on the island.

So I believe there is some other motivation for Michael which drives him, and using Walt's name is more of a excuse so the other survivors won't question his motives or actions.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Fish Man said:


> We must be an editor's, cinematographer's, and continuity person's worst nightmare!


Check out this shot: http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x20-two/4a/2fortheroad-cap351.jpg

The Taurus is being driven on the right side, which means the entire shot is reversed. This means that the label on the side of the van, the Stop sign, and the licence plates were all created as mirror images - or they were "fixed" in post-production.

If you want further evidence of the reversal, you can search for a photo of the Ford Econoline van and see that the licence plate is mounted on the right side of the vehicle (as is the sliding door - but it would make sense for that to be "curb side" where ever you are).

Also, it appears that Ford doesn't sell either the Taurus or the Econoline in Australia: http://www.ford.com.au/range/passenger.asp


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

getbak said:


> Check out this shot: http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x20-two/4a/2fortheroad-cap351.jpg


There's an American flag on that boat and though I'm sure there are plenty of American ships in Australian harbors, it's actually there because it's filmed in Hawaii.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

getbak said:


> Check out this shot: http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x20-two/4a/2fortheroad-cap351.jpg
> 
> Also, it appears that Ford doesn't sell either the Taurus or the Econoline in Australia: http://www.ford.com.au/range/passenger.asp


Interesting.

Apparently they did sell the Taurus there until 1996.

http://www.drive.com.au/used-cars-for-sale/ford/taurus/pg1/@spg6/results.html

But you're right, of course, that in 2004 (the year the plane crashes on the island, all the island activity, so far, happens, and therefore, the year the action just prior to the flight happened in Australia), no rental car company would be renting an 8 year old car! (Unless Australia has an equivalent of "Rent a Wreck", which, I suppose, is possible).


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

So here's a theory for you guys talking about how after Maternity Leave there can't be two sets of others -

Let's say there are. The clean/civilized ones and the savage ones. Then why would the clean ones have disguises?

Perhaps to infiltrate the savage ones? Rousseau spoke about the Others being infected. And the clean ones take some type of bizarre vaccine. Perhaps the clean/vaccinated ones will go in disguise to walk among the savages as part of an experiment. Perhaps the savages won't attack anyone they perceive as their own.

What that experiment would be, I have no idea. Just a point that you can make a theory to explain either point of view.


----------



## Mike20878 (Jun 8, 2001)

eugene82 said:


> We were presented with the certain death of AL. It is still unknown about Libby, although I agree that it seemed that Libby died on the spot. I could mention one line by Kate that suggests only AL is dead. And a certain person who looked very worried when a quote is make.
> I shall not do so because of the spolier rule.
> As for Michael shooting both AL and Libby only to then shot himself is very simple.
> There are possibly three things going on. Number one, he was brainwashed by one of the Dharma initiaves, number two, he is leading the surviours into a trap which would mean their capture could draw back viewers, change the storyline yet become more interesting. As it is there seems to be camp warfare which to me is getting boring.
> ...


Paragraph breaks, please.


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I still think there are 2 sets of others....the "primitives" and the "beards". The primitives broke off from the beards and now are at odds with them.....the primitives are very adapt to the jungle and are very dangerous while the beards rely on their smarts.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

If there are two groups of others, apparently *both* groups are obsessed with kidnapping children.

Why this obsession with kidnapping children (be there one group of others or two)?


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

pmyers said:


> I still think there are 2 sets of others....the "primitives" and the "beards". The primitives broke off from the beards and now are at odds with them.....the primitives are very adapt to the jungle and are very dangerous while the beards rely on their smarts.


And even though the primitives are at odds with them, they work together to infiltrate camps and kidnap children and innocents? There is no basis for these assumptions. It's been shown the hatchdwellers dress ragged and it's been shown they were in collusion with Ethan and Goodwin.


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## Mike20878 (Jun 8, 2001)

durl said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I know something that others don't because I watch the full 60 minutes.


Ok, I'll bite. What are you talking about and why was this spoilerized?


----------



## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

getbak said:


> Ana has a mole on her left cheek in the car, but on her right cheek in the hatch.


Nice catch. I'd say that just about covers it.


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## Sir_Q (Jun 27, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> Two things: You just broke the spoiler rule and if you want to talk about spoilers, feel free. Just use the spoiler tags. [ spoiler ] put words here [ /spoiler ] without the spaces.
> 
> I hope you get kicked off the forum, Dilbert.
> 
> Why do I feel like the spoiler police. Why do we have such a huge influx of rude people this week?





Spoiler



The spoiler police amuse me.


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## durl (Dec 1, 2005)

Mike20878 said:


> Ok, I'll bite. What are you talking about and why was this spoilerized?





Spoiler



I'm being bratty. I got into a little bit of trouble because I posted information about next week's episode that was shown at the end of this week's program. I had no idea that so many people purposefully avoided watching scenes from next week.


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## magaggie (Apr 9, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> Why do I feel like the spoiler police. Why do we have such a huge influx of rude people this week?


Because people like to poke the bear. This week the bear is you.

Repeat after me. "Its only a TV show"


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## ironchef (Dec 27, 2002)

Delta13 said:


> Headstrong surgeons aren't good leaders. Look at M*A*S*H*.


Citing a TV show is not evidence of anything.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

super dave said:


> They gotta stop killing off the hot chicks!





EMoMoney said:


> I'm not convinced Libby was killed.


It's OK...I'm not convinced Libby is hot!


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## tubsone (Apr 15, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Ok, so.....
> 
> Henry told Anna "you killed two of us.." (and later said something like "you're a killer, Anna Lucia"). Two?
> 
> ...


Anna Killed one of the others when they came back the second night to take the rest of the kids/people. Remember Anna tried to stop them and one of the others tackled her and Anna smashed her head in with a rock....so with that and Goodwin it makes two she's killed!


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## dadx2 (Oct 14, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> If there are two groups of others, apparently *both* groups are obsessed with kidnapping children.
> 
> Why this obsession with kidnapping children (be there one group of others or two)?


Tastes like chicken


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jradford said:


> ...I have hated AL all season long, but her death was so shocking that I, too, felt bad for her. I guess I wasn't as ready for her to die as I thought...


Nor I, especially after seeing her naked backside (at least the TOP of her backside)...


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> It's OK...I'm not convinced Libby is hot!


I'm convinced.


----------



## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> If there are two groups of others, apparently *both* groups are obsessed with kidnapping children.
> 
> Why this obsession with kidnapping children (be there one group of others or two)?


Simple - the barefoots want to get the children before the zekies because they disagree with what they plan to do with the children. Thus their split.

Again, I'm not sure there are two, but to dismiss the possibily all-together is shortsighted.


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## tubsone (Apr 15, 2006)

Ruth said:


> I thought it was an OK episode, not great. The last two shots surprized me, but not too much else did. I thought a lot of it was pretty predictable, actually -- Gale's attack on Ana Lucia, Ana Lucia stealing the gun from Sawyer, Michael shooting Ana Lucia. Didn't do much for me.
> 
> Being a TiVo user and all, I didn't see the commercial. Anyone got a link to it?


There always has to be someone who doesnt go with the flo!  I think your the only one with a so-so review of this ESP!


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## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> And even though the primitives are at odds with them, they work together to infiltrate camps and kidnap children and innocents? There is no basis for these assumptions. It's been shown the hatchdwellers dress ragged and it's been shown they were in collusion with Ethan and Goodwin.


Who says they're working together? No one who believe there are two groups has said this. Your entire disbelief of a second group is based on:

1. We saw a disguise.
2. We havent actually met anyone from this second group yet.

I don't think that's any stronger than the case for the other side.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> I suspect the "him" that we heard Ethan and Zeke talk about in Maternity leave and heard Henry mention several times is a Hanso representative who lives in the outside world and visits the island periodically to check on the progress of the "others".
> 
> "Him" might be Alvar Hanso himself. Or, it may be another "executive" of the Hanso Foundation. One personal favorite candidate I have for who "him" will turn out to be is Dr. Candle (the narrator of the orientation film). The writers/director went through the trouble of giving Dr. Candle a prosthetic arm. This was a writers device to make him more memorable, IMHO. (It may have other implications too.) This is to make it easier to immediately recognize him when we see him again. Maybe not as "him", but just another other. I'm convinced we'll eventually meet Dr. Candle "in the flesh". Maybe the Degroots too (if we haven't, in fact, seen them already).


I've got two theories about "Him" one of which was already mentioned (Jack's dad). This is based on his connection to so many of the losties in "flashbacks". The other is that "Him" is already being held captive in the hatch, if they want to go the Keyser Soze route.

On another topic, and I haven't been keeping up with older threads recently, so this might be out there already, but I'm convinced that the "flashbacks" are nothing more than implanted memories. I think the Hanso experiment will be revealed to resemble the movie "Dark City" (i.e., people given fake memories to see if they naturally adapt their behavior or if they have inherent characteristics that make them act a certain way regardless of the "memories").


----------



## Sue C. (Dec 9, 2003)

Fish Man said:



> Unless there really is also a group of "dirty" others and the sophisticated others sometimes masquerade as them.
> 
> But, no. That's super unlikely because:
> 
> ...


Still plausible, I think. I think of them as the jungle others and the sinister others. What if the jungle others are taking the children to prevent the sinister others from getting at them? I think it's possible that the jungle others are trying to protect the children from the sinister others. Maybe they are escapees from the sinister others?


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## Cboath (Jun 22, 2004)

Fish Man said:


> I'm convinced.


 :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:


----------



## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

pmyers said:


> I still think there are 2 sets of others....the "primitives" and the "beards". The primitives broke off from the beards and now are at odds with them.....the primitives are very adapt to the jungle and are very dangerous while the beards rely on their smarts.


If there "other others", the primitive/infected ones. What evidence do we have that they are dangerous? So far, all of the attacks were done by the "fake primitives"...


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## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

Fish Man said:


> I'm convinced.


Yea, those glamour shots look great...with lots of make-up or from a distance.

Seeing her up close, in HD, with minimal make-up and squinting in the sun, is a very different experience... 

AL is (was  ) definitely hotter and Libby is actually more of my type...


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Doesn't it seem ironic that the one time Ms. Hair Trigger decides _not_ to shoot someone, that decision is the one that leads to _her_ getting shot (and I believe killed)?

Maybe that's why some of us are sorry to see her get shot/killed even though we never liked her. She seemed to be in the middle of some sort of personal breakthrough and that got cut short. Maybe she was a bad person, but she was finally just starting to turn it around, and now it's too late (assuming she's dead). That is tragic.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Why this obsession with kidnapping children (be there one group of others or two)?


1. Perhaps a version of "natural selection" -- i.e., they pick out the "good/innocent people" for certain characteristics_ (e.g., never having killed anyone before)_;

2. Get them young enough and they can become indoctrinated more easily than an adult;

3. To avoid in-breeding for the future generations of islanders.

_(And yet, they rejected Rousseau's offer of Claire's baby Aaron ... hmmmm ... or was it that they didn't even show up to consider the offer?)_


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

Sir_Q said:
 

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The spoiler police amuse me.





Spoiler



They annoy me... I think just to be safe, everybody posting in the next "Lost" thread should put everything in spoiler tags. Spoiler nannies won't get upset and the rest of us can read a thread that isn't full of whining. (Yeah I know I'm whining now about their whining, but they don't know that.)


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

TR7spyder said:


> Seeing her up close, in HD, with minimal make-up and squinting in the sun, is a very different experience...


Hey, I've been watching in HD. 

The best I've ever seen Cynthia Watros look is as Phoebe Gunther in the Nero Wolf episode "The Silent Speaker". Her character was _supposed_ to be breathtaking, so lots of effort was made with hair and makeup too.

The only place I've seen her look bad is the recent mug shot when she got a DWI. But hey, she still looked OK for coming off an all-night bender and being roughed up by the cops!


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally Posted by *Delta13*
> 
> Headstrong surgeons aren't good leaders. Look at M*A*S*H*.





ironchef said:


> Citing a TV show is not evidence of anything.


Even if I'm talking about a TV show? You don't think Lost is ... *real*, do you? 

Hey, the Others got doctors, Losties got doctors, there's guns and bullets and mayhem and no one knows if or when they'll ever go home. Death and destruction all around. If someone sets up a still we're all set. Sounds like M*A*S*H to me!

(please note the use of smileys and winky-faces to denote sly sardonic humor)


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

pendragn said:


> It's funny that the two characters that got DUIs got shot.
> 
> tk


To make it worse for Michelle R, they had her doing press on Regis the day after. She says she's giving up acting. If my employer showed me support in a time of need like that, I'd want out of that business too!

I know they'll spin it, but it is a heck of a coincidence.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

If you're going to do a huge psychological experiment, you need people to experiment on. One group could be the doctors, etc running the experiment, and the other are the subjects being studied. We talked about different kinds of experiments--effects of magnetism, survival in unusual environments(polar bear), mind control stuff(Walt). Maybe the straggly others are suffering from the "disease" from the black rock. Maybe Michael is too. Or they're a control group to compare with those who take the "vaccine." Or they took a drug to give them extra strength (Ethan) and it also made them savage. The possibilities are endless. There could be 5 or 6 groups of others.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Wow - I finished the whole thread, and the back and forth in the spoiler wars was quite tedious.

Here are my thoughts, in no particular order: 

*Anna Lucia*. Dead. Very. A shame too, as she was just starting to redeem herself, and that is what this island appears to be about. 
*Libby*. Critically wounded and will be taken to the medical bunker for Jack to operate. She barely survives surgery and an anguished Hurley visits her. Seeing her in a hospital-like setting will be a breakthrough and he finally recalls where he remembers Libby from. He grows angry and Libby regains consciousness just long enough to apologize and say something cryptic about why she lied to him. 
*Locke*. In the last new episode, Locke told Rose he was done with the hatch, but he doesn't look like he moved out yet. He will indeed be blamed for the mess in the hatch, as Locke said nothing when AL volunteered to stay and guard Henry, and Lock knew Henry tried to kill AL. He will have no defense to Jack. BTW - does anyone know if AL knows about the 108 minute timer and the codes that must be entered? 
*Sawyer*. Got laid, and then got screwed. (Yup, when AL took his gun.) So not only is AL a murderer (twice in self-defense, once in cold-blood), she's also a prostitute, trading sex for a gun. Of course, this was before she couldn't pull the trigger on Henry, thus paving the way to her short-lived attempt at redemption. 
*Michael*. He didn't accidentally stumble across Jack and Kate in the jungle. I think the Others basically threw a drugged Michael in their laps, knowing that Jack would take a "sick" Michael back to the hatch for treatment. I'm in the camp that thinks Michael is being blackmailed into his acts out of fear Walt will be killed if he doesn't comply. Michael seemed to feel bad about having to shooting AL, but I think his primary order was to free Henry, and AL was in the way and had to be taken out. 
*Christian, Jack's father*. It's too much of a coincidence that Christian has now been shown crossing paths with several survivors: Jack, Sawyer, and now AL. Add to this the proposition that Claire is Christian's daughter, and you really have to wonder whether these were all accidental meetings (outside of Jack of course) or whether Christian was purposefully being manipulative. 
*The Others*. One group or two? I tend to think that there's only one group, but think the better question is, what do the survivors think? So far, the survivors have only seen Ethan, Goodwin, and Henry in "normal" clothes. They have seen the "raggedy"-dressed Others on numerous occasions. Jack and Kate know there's a possibility that these are costumes, yet Michael speaks of seeing a small camp of 20 or so poorly dressed Others near another hatch. So what do the survivors know? 

Well, that's it for my musings.

P.S. I also had the nasty hissing and popping for the first 15-20 minutes of the show - thought my HR10-250 was dying! (See, I _did_ read the entire thread!)


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> Only thing missing in this perfection was Jack being killed in the previews.





Redux said:


> By revealing content of a preview you have violated the rules of this forum and the laws of several states. Please use the spoiler tag when you reveal such content. Thank you.


Redux: Did you meant to say "By revealing *missing* content in a preview ..."? 

I'm hoping you were bing sarcastic and just forgot your happy grin. 

My take was Phil apparently wants Jack to die and was unhappy that the previews didn't show that happening. Is it a violation of spoiler rules to say a character was not shown to die in a preview? Probably, but I'll leave that to the community to decide ...

There are a log of things being discussed in this thread that weren't shown in the previews, but I guess that's ok as long as we don't mention the "P" word!


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Drew, AL entered the codes for Locke when he was on the beach with Rose ... she said "I pushed your button" or something to that effect. Interesting musings, though.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

drew2k said:


> *Locke*. In the last new episode, Locke told Rose he was done with the hatch, but he doesn't look like he moved out yet. He will indeed be blamed for the mess in the hatch, as Locke said nothing when AL volunteered to stay and guard Henry, and Lock knew Henry tried to kill AL. He will have no defense to Jack. BTW - does anyone know if AL knows about the 108 minute timer and the codes that must be entered?


Except that at the end of the last episode (and in this episode), Locke has been working on the drawings that were on the blast door.
So I don't think he's done with the hatch yet.
He will be in deep doo doo for not mentioning Henry attacking Ana Lucia though.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

drew2k said:


> [*] *Sawyer*. Got laid, and then got screwed. (Yup, when AL took his gun.) So not only is AL a murderer (twice in self-defense, once in cold-blood), she's also a prostitute, trading sex for a gun...


That was a harsh term for AL -- she simply used sex as a distraction in order to get the gun. ("Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?" Turns out there WAS a gun in his pocket and he WAS glad to see her!)  The hustler was hustled -- with benefits.

Considering the island, wouldn't it be a nice twist if Sawyer wound up impregnated by the now-deceased Ana Lucia?


----------



## eugene82 (Mar 31, 2006)

sonnik said:


> One other thing I noticed, unless it was an error...
> 
> The Lost Logo that signals the end of an episode was silent (no muted percussion). First time that this has happened, if I recall correctly.
> 
> Is this going to be something like 24's "Silent Clock?"


 Almost seemed to me like a momet of silence for the dead.


----------



## eugene82 (Mar 31, 2006)

mqpickles said:


> Doesn't it seem ironic that the one time Ms. Hair Trigger decides _not_ to shoot someone, that decision is the one that leads to _her_ getting shot (and I believe killed)?
> 
> Maybe that's why some of us are sorry to see her get shot/killed even though we never liked her. She seemed to be in the middle of some sort of personal breakthrough and that got cut short. Maybe she was a bad person, but she was finally just starting to turn it around, and now it's too late (assuming she's dead). That is tragic.


I tend to agree. We did see her telling her mother that she wanted to return home.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> I used to think there were two groups of others until the episode "Maternity Leave" aired. Now I'm pretty sure there's only one group. They dress up "primitive" when they are in a position where the losties will see them.


I'm waaaay behind in this thread (and I haven't even finished reading the post I'm replying to), but I felt the urge to post now.

I now see a clear way that there can be two groups besides the fusies/talies, and now, for the first time, think I prefer that belief for now.

I think that the people we saw in fast-motion, which included the kids with the teddy bear, is one group. Genuinely tattered, walking around, very silent. Who knows what else is special/unique about them - that's all I'm suggesting now - that they're one group.

Then maybe the second group is the guy with the beard and the people with him who also wear beards and ragged clothes.. my guess is that they're trying to appear to be members of the first group, since the first group exists.. (just like Ethan pretended to be a member of the fusies and Goodwin pretended to be a member of the tailies, in the appropriate clothes, though I'm not saying they're "infultrating" the first group.

Maybe this second group is people conducting experiments, observing, and not wanting to be known about (like the observers in the latest Star Trek movie or that earlier Star Trek Next Generation episode where scientists lived in a cave observing some primative species).. When they went out to get Walt, they wanted to keep their observer status hidden, so they dressed like the ragged guys..

Who are the genuinely ragged guys (the first group)? Maybe they're all sick from the disease.. they're actually the truly scary people - maybe zombie-like - who knows.

Story-wise it'd be pretty cool - Kate witnessed something to make her think there are no scary "others" - just people dressing up scary. but clearly civilized.. how cool would it be to find out in a later episode near the end of the season that there IS a scary, uncontrolable stealthy scary group of people/savages/etc that are infected and roaming around.

Maybe the savages are the fallout of the last "incident"..

Maybe the second group (who dress up) are studying the effects of the disease on the infected first group as part of their Dharma work, and the button in the hatch is so that if the code isn't entered, they must have been defeated by savajes or infected by them, and that it's time to wipe out the whole island via satellite or something to contain the illness they were trying to study..

Ok, back to reading people's un-spoiler-tagged comments..


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Except that at the end of the last episode (and in this episode), Locke has been working on the drawings that were on the blast door.
> So I don't think he's done with the hatch yet.
> He will be in deep doo doo for not mentioning Henry attacking Ana Lucia though.


Except no one will know he didn't mention it. AL is dead, Michael just mumbles, Henry speaks like Yoda, and Locke ain't saying sh*t.

Like any of them talk to each other anywho . . .


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

getreal said:


> He was clearly depicted as a bad father. Even though he fought for custody with his ex when she planned to move to another continent, he basically gave up when he was taken to the other side of the world _(see the analogy with being taken to the other side of the island?)_.


Again, posting from behind in the thread..

Just to add to that (if not restate it a bit), maybe this is exactly why they took Walt in the first place.. They didn't take Walt just because they needed his special powers, or because they needed to study him for telekinesis, or because they needed children..

_......they took him to give Michael a chance to redeem himself for letting Walt get taken away the first time_..

Everyone else has their chance for redemption.. Charlie with his drug use and the temptation of available drugs again.. Hurley with his food and the repeating occurances of new foot to tempt him.. etc. Michael's biggest problem was letting his son get taken away. This is his chance to redeem himself, which he seems to be doing. If someone explained all that to Walt, even Walt might play along luring his dad into it just to give him the chance for redemption, although they certainly didn't need Walt's cooperation for that - Michael got lured back across the island by text on a computer screen that anyone could have typed.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

But how does killing Ana Lucia and (possibly) Libby in cold blood redeem him?
This does not make him "good".


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Except no one will know he didn't mention it. AL is dead, Michael just mumbles, Henry speaks like Yoda, and Locke ain't saying sh*t.
> 
> Like any of them talk to each other anywho . . .


Perhaps Locke's guilt will compel him to confess. He is "good" after all (assuming we can believe anything that Fake Henry says).


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

> Maybe the second group (who dress up) are studying the effects of the disease on the infected first group as part of their Dharma work, and the button in the hatch is so that if the code isn't entered, they must have been defeated by savajes or infected by them, and that it's time to wipe out the whole island via satellite or something to contain the illness they were trying to study..


 The only problem I have with this is Henry playing mind games with Locke over whether he entered the numbers or not. If they are going to come down and nuke the island if the code isn't entered, then he is playing one hell of a bluff. For no payoff.

To do it just to get further inside Locke's head - a place Henry was already firmly entrenched - isn't worth the risk.

And shooting people to prove you are good has a way of well, backfiring. 

I agree with Astrohip - these people never talk to each other anyway. However, *Locke has already said something*. Most of us have forgotten, but Locke started to tell Jack something during the Standoff, obviously about AL and Henry. So the beans have already been spilled. But no one knew she had stolen Sawyer's gun, and there was no danger until then. Remember, they had a rule that no one could go in to see him without a gun being present, and she violated that rule when she was attacked. Most people wouldn't go back in without a gun, which is exactly what happened.

And for once, Locke spoke up about something before it hit the fan. (See examples: drug plane, hatch) They could have gone down and found nothing had happened.

Further irony: not only did Little Ms Shoot First not kill Henry, but she actively stopped him from being shot by Sayid earlier. So twice, and either time would have saved her life.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I love the idea that it the numbers aren't imput they will assume the sane people are all insane or dead and blast the island off the map!! But if that were the idea, there would probably be stations in all the hatches to stop the blast. Or else whoever is in charge would never have let our survivors man the only station.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

{random-free-thinking-mode-where-you-don't-rule-things-out-based-on-other-things-we-know}
So why the blast doors in the hatch? Maybe when one of the hatches ceases to type in their numbers, the rest get locked down - everyone in those other hatches gets inside the blast area for safety, and everyone on the island that isn't in a bunker gets wiped out..

After wiping out their subjects, they need more people to test on, so they order another plane to be delivered via their airline Oceanic..
{/random-free-thinking-mode-where-you-don't-rule-things-out-based-on-other-things-we-know}

Ok well obviously that's got problems, because we _saw_ a lockdown, and the island didn't get wiped out.. 

Why the blast doors....... I don't think just as a psychological game tied in with the numbers - that's way too much work to make those doors (and make them so thick and heavy).

Yeah, so we think about these specific experiements done by the Hanso foundation, and wonder about the particular protocols of the hatches... .... but _Locke's legs work_, and _Rose is ok_.. I think it'd be less-than-impressive if they were healed by some Dharma program like "remote healing" or electromagnetic therapy.. that's be pretty weak. The island is mystical, or there's nanotech running around healing things.. (that'd be an ok Dharma project  ) - the same nanotech that made up the black picture fog.

Ooooooh..

Ok back into random thought mode..
{random-free-thinking-mode-where-you-don't-rule-things-out-based-on-other-things-we-know}
What if one of the projects involved making a nanotech swarm, they succeeded, but it became self aware.. It's an intelligent fog of nanotech, and it's the one putting values or judgements on good vs bad, and issues of redemption.. It learned somewhere along the line that good should be rewarded and bad should be punished (maybe based on witnessing Dharma workers collect good people since there's limited vaccine and they have to choose people).
{/random-free-thinking-mode-where-you-don't-rule-things-out-based-on-other-things-we-know}

Dunno what I'm thinking. Tired. Can't wait for the next episode.


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

I wonder if the "half brother / half sister" thing is vital to the overall story, part of some Hanso/Dharma project.

As though they weren't able to do it with Shannon / Boone - they're trying to work in as a Jack / Claire storyline.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I believe Libby will survive. Otherwise what was the point of her having 2 thick blankets and having them in front of her when she was shot? That was so they could say the blankets slowed the bullets down enough for her to survive. She was holding them in a weird and awkward way. Like she was using them for protection.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

random comment:

In the beginning of the ep, AL's mom asked her where she was last night, to which she responded, "...watched some tv...". So then the mom goes into interrogation mode and asks what she watched, which AL obviously got caught in a lie. 

If she had Tivo, she would've had a rock hard alibi!!!  

Yet another reason to have Tivo... when you need a "watching TV alibi" to commit crimes.


----------



## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

And it happens yet again!

I usually don't watch Lost right away, so I don't look at the LOST threads until they're already well underway. I rarely post in the thread, because anything I would have posted has already been said. But that's cool.

So I start to read the thread from the beginning, and with each page of posts I get more and more annoyed. Annoyed by people posting the same stuff that was already posted, just because they can't be bothered to read the whole thread before enlightening everyone with their theories.

Hey can we get another newbie's list of the three theories of Michaels motives? Cuz I didn't quite get them the first 6 times they were presented.

I know, I know - if I don't like it, don't read the threads. Well that's what I'm going to do from now on. No more Lost threads for me, cuz it's just too annoying.

But for the benefit of others who feel like I do, here's a plea to the guilty: READ THE FRIGGING THREAD BEFORE POSTING, WILL YA?

I imagine you post because you want your ideas read by others - how about showing the same courtesy to the people who posted before you?

Rant over and out!


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> ... It learned somewhere along the line that good should be rewarded and bad should be punished (maybe based on witnessing Dharma workers collect good people since there's limited vaccine and they have to choose people).


Jeff, in your randomness I think you hit something. What if Dharma didn't send the plane at all? What if the island just seems to attract these things? Balloon, racing boat, wooden ship, small plane, and big plane. If we hadn't seen it burnup, you'd think that parts of Skylab might be laying around.

So there's a disease, and they can't protect everyone. So they create makeshift "good" lists and "steal" those people, expecially children. And leave the rest to die apparently, or become infected and do ... what, we don't know. Go crazy, go backwards, go off the reservation, whatever. (Interesting to see that after almost totally ruling out multiple groups of Others earlier in the season, we're now back to it again.)

Cause the problem I have with the lists is this: if you gathered these people together, got them on a plane, and then crashed it on purpose, why would you need a list of good and bad? Shouldn't you already know? Why should Dharma have to figure it out?

But back to the Oceanic flight for a sec - what if the pilot overflew on purpose? And Dharma only got notice in the last few moments? I know we've seen the co-pilot, have we ever seen who the pilot of 815 was? Has a flashback ever shown the cockpit?


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

bruinfan said:


> random comment:
> 
> In the beginning of the ep, AL's mom asked her where she was last night, to which she responded, "...watched some tv...". So then the mom goes into interrogation mode and asks what she watched, which AL obviously got caught in a lie.
> 
> ...


I thought exactly the same thing. I guess I have seen way too many episodes of L&O and all the other procedural crime shows.


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## spartanstew (Feb 24, 2002)

vinniet said:


> Yes the minute I saw the bar when AL stopped the car, I said to my wife " we are going to see Sawyer". Sure enough there he was .....


Ditto.



HIHZia said:


> WOW!
> 
> When we were watching, as soon as Anna gave the gun to Michael I said "He's gonna shoot her". I was still suprised when it happened.


Ditto.



TR7spyder said:


> - Michael, who just learned how to shoot a rifle, shoots Libby TWICE in the torso from a decent distance without really aiming, not a very easy thing to do, especially for a novice shooter.


My take was that the shooting was a complete accident. She startled him, he turned and the gun fired (twice). He wasn't aiming, he just got lucky (or unlucky, depending upon how it plays out).



TR7spyder said:


> Other comments/observations:
> 
> I was not bugged by Sawyer missing his gun. It is plausible that he gave it to AL, but momentary forgot about it when he reached for it. Since it is usually there, but it isnt like he had to use it very often.


How could he get dressed after sex and not notice that he doesn't have his gun. If she would have slipped it from behing his back I could understand, but he had to take his pants off (and gun) and then put them back on (without gun). Hard to believe he'd miss that.



vikingguy said:


> Now if grey's writers could kill off alex for me it would be a perfect TV season.


He's my favorite character on that show.



nataylor said:


> I think there are two groups of Others.


I think so too.



TAsunder said:


> You don't think Michelle R is a hot chick?


God No. A hot guy, maybe.



JYoung said:


> But how does killing Ana Lucia and (possibly) Libby in cold blood redeem him?
> This does not make him "good".


He wasn't looking for redemption in killing AL, he had no choice. He needed to let HG go and couldn't have any witnesses. Libby was a total accident, but even if he hadn't shot her impulsively, he would have still had to kill her.



scooterboy said:


> READ THE FRIGGING THREAD BEFORE POSTING, WILL YA?


I did, and always do. Even though it took a long time today cause I just got around to watching this episode tonight. Reading it's fundamental.


----------



## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

spartanstew said:


> I did, and always do. Even though it took a long time today cause I just got around to watching this episode tonight. Reading it's fundamental.


 :up: :up: :up:


----------



## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

> I wonder if the "half brother / half sister" thing is vital to the overall story, part of some Hanso/Dharma project.
> 
> As though they weren't able to do it with Shannon / Boone - they're trying to work in as a Jack / Claire storyline.


Two problems: Shonnon/Boone were not blood related (they just grew up together as brother/sister)

And we do not yet know that Jack/Claire are related ether



> But back to the Oceanic flight for a sec - what if the pilot overflew on purpose? And Dharma only got notice in the last few moments? I know we've seen the co-pilot, have we ever seen who the pilot of 815 was? Has a flashback ever shown the cockpit?


No, but the security system killed the pilot as soon as it/they realized that he survived the crash Sort of makes you think that he wasnt meant to survive, in their grand scheme


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I'm late on this one, but yowza! Obviously, Michael has been brainwashed to free Henry. Funny how the two they picked to die were busted recently for real life DUIs. He obviously was out to kill Anna, but Libby (Lilly?) was a mistake. She must be one of "the good ones."


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## TreborPugly (May 2, 2002)

Okay, I missed the last minute because of soft padding and something else getting that minute. The last thing I saw was Michael pointing the gun at Anna Lucia. I've read about 250 posts of this thread and haven't seen anyone yet ask for a detailed recap of the last minute, so here I am asking. I take it from the discussion that Michael shot Anna Lucia, that Libby came in and he shot her, and I understand that he shot himself in the arm (presumably to make it look like he was a fellow victim. Did he let Gale out of the vault and then shoot himself? Did he and Gale exchange any words?

Thanks.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

TreborPugly said:


> Did he let Gale out of the vault and then shoot himself? Did he and Gale exchange any words?


You're right on all counts. He was shocked he shot Libby because she startled him. He didn't mean to shoot her.

But, it ended with him shooting himself in the arm. No words were exchanged with Henry. It'll probably start off this week with Henry gone.


----------



## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

As I remember it:

After shooting the 2 women he opens the vault door, looks at HG, nothing is said, and he shoots himself in the arm.

Cut to the Lost symbol.

Which I've been thinking this whole time is weird because HG is tied to the floor so I haven't understood how Michael shooting himself without freeing HG first is supposed to work.


----------



## rlc1 (Sep 15, 2003)

Here are my theories, sorry if these have been mentioned but I don't have time to read all the comments here:

Libby isn't dead. That wasn't blood on the floor near her (as someone else mentioned), I thought so too at first, but that was just Michael's shadow. Also, a couple of things from the preview made me think she's not dead:


Spoiler



Hurley would be freaking out if she was dead, but we see him telling Michael he's glad he is ok. My guess is that he says this to him before Libby regains consciousness and points out Michael as the shooter. Also, it seemed to me in the clip where Michael in the sling, he was in the cell where they had kept Henry. So if he was in the cell, then they found out about the shooting from Libby herself. Plus, they showed Ana Lucia's body but not Libby's, and Kate said "she's dead", not "they're dead".



I don't think Michael has been brainwashed into being an Other, I think they must have just threatened harm to Walt to make him do what he did. If he was an Other now, I think he would have been a little more cold-blooded about the killings. The shooting really seemed to bother him. Great bit of acting there.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

rlc1 said:


> Libby isn't dead. That wasn't blood on the floor near her (as someone else mentioned), I thought so too at first, but that was just Michael's shadow.


Then why was it not only red, but growing outward from her?


----------



## rlc1 (Sep 15, 2003)

TreborPugly said:


> Okay, I missed the last minute because of soft padding and something else getting that minute. The last thing I saw was Michael pointing the gun at Anna Lucia. I've read about 250 posts of this thread and haven't seen anyone yet ask for a detailed recap of the last minute, so here I am asking. I take it from the discussion that Michael shot Anna Lucia, that Libby came in and he shot her, and I understand that he shot himself in the arm (presumably to make it look like he was a fellow victim. Did he let Gale out of the vault and then shoot himself? Did he and Gale exchange any words?
> 
> Thanks.


I watched it three or four times. He gets Ana Lucia to give him the gun, saying he will kill "Henry", because she wants to but can't get herself to go through with it. Then Michael says "sorry", Ana Lucia says "why?", and then he shoots her while she is sitting on the couch. A few seconds later, Libby comes in and says "Michael!", it is clear from her expression that she sees Ana Lucia dead on the couch, and Michael spins around quickly and shoots Libby twice, I don't think he even had time to recognize her before shooting. Then he stands there and freaks out, all shaking, for a few seconds. Libby is seen lying on the floor but it's not clear whether or not she's dead. Michael goes into the cell, and "Henry" stands up and just looks at him, but his expression is somewhat unclear. He is either afraid of what Michael may do, or else he pretty much knows Michael will free him....because he must have heard the other two shots. Anyway, we don't see him let "Henry" out of the vault, we just see him turn and shoot towards his arm, and that's the end of the episode.


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## rlc1 (Sep 15, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Then why was it not only red, but growing outward from her?


I had to re-watch this three times to figure it out. It's Michael's arm slowly moving downwards after firing the gun, and the shadow of his arm just moves closer to him, and away from Libby, as the arm moves. Trust me, it's not blood - that's what I thought too at first.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

rlc1 said:


> I had to re-watch this three times to figure it out. It's Michael's arm slowly moving downwards after firing the gun, and the shadow of his arm just moves closer to him, and away from Libby, as the arm moves. Trust me, it's not blood - that's what I thought too at first.


Are you watching in high def?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

SeanC said:


> As I remember it:
> 
> After shooting the 2 women he opens the vault door, looks at HG, nothing is said, and he shoots himself in the arm.
> 
> ...


Anna had given HG her knife and told him to cut himself loose.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Are you watching in high def?


I am. Definitely not blood. It's a shadow.


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

SeanC said:


> Which I've been thinking this whole time is weird because HG is tied to the floor so I haven't understood how Michael shooting himself without freeing HG first is supposed to work.


HG isn't tied to the floor at that time. In fact, he stands up when Michael enters the vault.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

nataylor said:


> I am. Definitely not blood. It's a shadow.


Ditto.

I'm watching in Hi Def.

I've watched carefully multiple times.

Not blood, it's a shadow, no question.

In fact, in my initial non-critical viewing, I took it to be a shadow. It was the first mention of "blood" in this thread that inspired me to re-watch the first time.

It's not blood.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

spartanstew said:


> He wasn't looking for redemption in killing AL, he had no choice. He needed to let HG go and couldn't have any witnesses. Libby was a total accident, but even if he hadn't shot her impulsively, he would have still had to kill her.


Yes, but how does killing at least one unarmed, possibly innocent bystander redeem him? Cold blooded murder is usually considered an evil act.

And with the death of Ana Lucia, the murderer count on the island wnet down. Of course, Michael hinmself adds to it.....


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

SeanC said:


> As I remember it:
> 
> After shooting the 2 women he opens the vault door, looks at HG, nothing is said, and he shoots himself in the arm.
> 
> ...


I thought he wasn't tied to the floor anymore, since Anna gave him the knife to free himself so she could shoot him. He did cut himself free, and then she didn't shoot him.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

JYoung said:


> And with the death of Ana Lucia, the murderer count on the island wnet down. Of course, Michael hinmself adds to it.....


I know this was said as a joke, but it intrigued me enough... How many people on this island do we know who are murderers?

*Confirmed*
ANA-LUCIA - Police officer, so may have come with the job, but also murdered the man who shot her and killed her unborn baby.
EKO - Too numerous to count. He was a drug lord, but we see him shooting a man as a child.
JACK - Let Boone and Shannon's father die on the table
KATE - Her stepfather/dad
SAWYER - Killed the man who he thought was responsible for conning his parents.
SAYID - Too numerous to count. He was in the first Gulf War. Responsible for the torture of individuals.

...and now MICHAEL - Kills Ana-Lucia and maybe Libby.

*Guesses*
BERNARD - Unknown.
BOONE - Unknown. Will probably never know.
CHARLIE - Unknown. Previous drug user, though. May have had some unsavory associations.
CLAIRE - Unknown. Is her baby a demon spawn or a savior?
HURLEY - Unknown. Maybe someone died because of his bad luck.
JIN - Unknown. Did he do anything more for Sun's father that we don't know about?
LIBBY - Unknown, but why was she in the psych ward?
LOCKE - Unknown. Maybe he kills his father? The motive's definitely there. You could also argue he was indirectly responsible for Boone's death.
ROSE - Unknown.
SHANNON - Unknown. Will probably never know.
SUN - Unknown.


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## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Then why was it not only red, but growing outward from her?


I pointed it out a few pages ago.... While it looks like blood at first look, it is actually Michael's shaddow.

I confirmed it on a 60" High Def TV in slow motion .


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

tewcewl said:


> How many people on this island do we know who are murderers?
> 
> *Confirmed*
> ANA-LUCIA - Police officer, so may have come with the job, but also murdered the man who shot her and killed her unborn baby.
> ...


At least as far as Jack is concerned, that's a pretty broad definition of "murder" (the same could be said for the "may have come with the job" part of Ana-Lucia, but she undoubtedly murdered the one guy.)

Have we actually seen Sayid kill anyone? Torture, certainly, but I don't know that he's actually killed someone. It's not unreasonable to expect given his background, but "reasonable" isn't a term I've come to associate with Lost.


----------



## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

TR7spyder said:


> I pointed it out a few pages ago.... While it looks like blood at first look, it is actually Michael's shaddow.
> 
> I confirmed it on a 60" High Def TV in slow motion .


Agreed, I rewound it several times too. It was Michaels shadow.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Guess I shouldn't delete so quick!


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> At least as far as Jack is concerned, that's a pretty broad definition of "murder" (the same could be said for the "may have come with the job" part of Ana-Lucia, but she undoubtedly murdered the one guy.)
> 
> Have we actually seen Sayid kill anyone? Torture, certainly, but I don't know that he's actually killed someone. It's not unreasonable to expect given his background, but "reasonable" isn't a term I've come to associate with Lost.


That's a good point about Sayid. Since he was a soldier, it's possible he killed people in combat but we don't know that he's murdered anyone. 
I've seen people say Jack's a murderer to but do we really know that his inaction killed Shannon's dad. 
Do we even know if he was saveable in the first place? 
Jack may have simply made the triage choice of working on the patient he could save as opposed to the one he couldn't.


----------



## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Guess I shouldn't delete so quick!


I have learned to keep this show saved for at least a week, just for this reason  People are just bringing up too much stuff that I didn't notice on my first watch.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

JYoung said:


> That's a good point about Sayid. Since he was a soldier, it's possible he killed people in combat but we don't know that he's murdered anyone.


Didn't he shoot and kill a guard and then shoot himself when he helped his woman escape from the Iraqi prison?


----------



## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

Isn't Jin also a murderer? Doesn't his job for his father-in-law require murder? I thought he killed someone before....


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

nyny523 said:


> Isn't Jin also a murderer? Doesn't his job for his father-in-law require murder? I thought he killed someone before....


I don't think we've seen him kill anyone... just beat the crap out of them. In fact, he stopped one of his FIL's other employees from killing someone by beating the crap out of them first.


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## jimborst (Aug 30, 2001)

Hurley killed two when the deck collapsed, not pre meditated, but it sent him to the hospital.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

tewcewl said:


> CHARLIE - Unknown. Previous drug user, though. May have had some unsavory associations.


Charlie killed Ethan Rom on the island.

Danielle killed her whole team.. Arzt (Artz?) blew himself up. 

Shannon at least shot at Locke.. Shooting someone probably comes with intent at least.

And for the record I dunno if I count Jack's leaving Shannon's dad on the table murder as much as just killing someone.


----------



## dadx2 (Oct 14, 2002)

JYoung said:


> That's a good point about Sayid. Since he was a soldier, it's possible he killed people in combat but we don't know that he's murdered anyone.
> I've seen people say Jack's a murderer to but do we really know that his inaction killed Shannon's dad.
> Do we even know if he was saveable in the first place?
> Jack may have simply made the triage choice of working on the patient he could save as opposed to the one he couldn't.


didn't Sayid kill a couple of soldiers to save a girl he loved that was captured and going to be tortured.


----------



## RangersRBack (Jan 9, 2006)

Fish Man said:


> If there are two groups of others, apparently *both* groups are obsessed with kidnapping children.
> 
> Why this obsession with kidnapping children (be there one group of others or two)?


Probably because child actors age and change too fast to be on a show that is moving along at the pace of approximately one month a year.

Whew, that was tiring reading all that, especially the bickering over spoilers/non-spoilers. If it were up to me I wouldn't watch the previews, but my wife and kids want to, and I'm too lazy to get up and walk out of the room. So most of the spoilers on here don't affect me. I watch the Sopranos by myself, and don't watch the previews. Nobody reveals preview tidbits in those discussions and then complains about spoiler police.

Isn't it prudent to err on the side of caution instead of throwing something out there that, once revealed, cannot be un-revealed for those who saw it but didn't want to? If something is spoilerized it can still be read if you really want to by highlighting it. If you're not sure if something should be spoilerized, how about spoilerizing it just in case for common courtesy?

Nobody is saying you shouldn't post spoilers or potential spoilers, or that you're not welcome on this forum. Just spoilerize it for crying out loud. Why go off on the 'spoiler police' theme? What's the big deal if you have to run a cursor over a sentence once in a while?


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

> Yes, but how does killing at least one unarmed, possibly innocent bystander redeem him? Cold blooded murder is usually considered an evil act.


 Obviously, you missed the memo on Allowable Murders. As long as one kills in the name of your God, prophet, Great Leader, spiritual guide, family member, or political position all will be forgiven. Mind you, this list of exemptions is not all-inclusive and can be modified at any time. 

Killing for sport is still not allowed, however. You'll notice in our list of "murderers" a distinct lack of drive-bys, killing for fun, or just random acts of violence. There's not even any murder for money or gains, that we know of anyway.

What I find funny about the Spoiler Police is ABC got _everybody_ this time. No preview gave this one away, or even hinted at it. Even those of us who watch previews went "I did NOT just see that!!"


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

The people who are making the "good" and "bad" judgements are, at best mad scientists who hold subjects on this island for experimentation when they have the ability to get them home, or at worst savage lunatics. They may have even crashed an entire plane load of people to get the 40 or 50 subjects. What they consider redemption could be murdering other "bad" people or it could be just obeying their orders. Who knows?


----------



## TIVOSciolist (Oct 13, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> WTF? Man, Hawaiian drunk driving penalties sure are harsh.


People here are missing the obvious.

If you're female, *don't have sex on the island!* Not having sex won't guarantee that you won't die. However, the moral implications are clear:

Shannon ==> Sex ==> Dead
Anna Lucia ==> Sex ==> Dead
(Pregnant) Sun ==> Sex(?) ==> At risk!

Sorry, Ladies, I don't make the rules.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

TIVOSciolist said:


> Sorry, Ladies, I don't make the rules.


Seems like you should be feeling bad for the guys, too... at least once the women figure it out


----------



## Lost Dog (Jan 10, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> I know this was said as a joke, but it intrigued me enough... How many people on this island do we know who are murderers?
> 
> *Guesses*
> 
> HURLEY - Unknown. Maybe someone died because of his bad luck.


Yeah, Hurley killed the people on the deck (not necessarily his fault) but **IF** I remember correctly he was tied in to Locke's paralysis.

In the first "Hurley Background" episode, after winning the lottery some of his money was invested in a box company that either burned down or collapsed (can't remember which). It turned out that based on the insurance money from it he made even more money.

If I also recall, Locke worked at a box company (I remember him telling someone that he had a non-exciting job at a box company).

Then again, I may be nuts.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Lost Dog said:


> Yeah, Hurley killed the people on the deck (not necessarily his fault) but **IF** I remember correctly he was tied in to Locke's paralysis.


There has been speculation that Hurley was responsible for Locke's paralysis (and I believe this as well) but that has not been proven as of yet.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

TIVOSciolist said:


> People here are missing the obvious.
> 
> If you're female, *don't have sex on the island!* Not having sex won't guarantee that you won't die. However, the moral implications are clear:
> 
> ...


That could be parallel to UNMARRIED sex. I say that since we are not sure if Sun's baby is Jin's or the bald guy we see Sun meet with in her flashbacks. This is/must be a moral island.


----------



## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

Lost Dog said:


> In the first "Hurley Background" episode, after winning the lottery some of his money was invested in a box company that either burned down or collapsed (can't remember which). It turned out that based on the insurance money from it he made even more money.
> 
> If I also recall, Locke worked at a box company (I remember him telling someone that he had a non-exciting job at a box company).
> 
> Then again, I may be nuts.


You're nuts...

Yes, Hurley owned the Box company that Locke worked at, however...

It was the Sneaker Factory that burned down that got him all the insurance money...


----------



## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

The following point is completely unrealistic...it is just a feeling I keep getting...

If I were reading the Lost story in a novel, rather than watching it, I would have the feeling that those who've died are those that have found resolution to their personal issues. Boone finally learned to let go of Shannon, Shannon finally found someone (Sayid) who loved her and would stay with her, Ana-Lucia finally conquers her desire for revenge when she doesn't/can't kill Not-Henry. Libby, it seems, was just collateral damage or perhaps she's not dead.


----------



## Lost Dog (Jan 10, 2003)

DUSlider said:


> You're nuts...


Woo hoo!


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> The following point is completely unrealistic...it is just a feeling I keep getting...
> 
> If I were reading the Lost story in a novel, rather than watching it, I would have the feeling that those who've died are those that have found resolution to their personal issues. Boone finally learned to let go of Shannon, Shannon finally found someone (Sayid) who loved her and would stay with her, Ana-Lucia finally conquers her desire for revenge when she doesn't/can't kill Not-Henry. Libby, it seems, was just collateral damage or perhaps she's not dead.


That is what I was thinking. People "die" apparently after they come to terms with their issues. (That is also why I am in the Libby is NOT dead camp)

So about the Purgetory theory again?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I still had it on the SD TiVo. The movement was definitely Michael's arm shadow. But there did appear to be a red splotch in front of Libby.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

history lesson would be appreciated:

I stopped reading these threads a while ago because it's a full time job in of itself...but can someone tell me what happened with the monsters that used to attack them? And what was the source of the power line that led into the ocean and where did it lead to? Was it the frechwoman?


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

The smoke monster was last scene in Mr. Eko's episode. That wasn't too many episodes ago. I'm sure we'll see more of it before the season is out. I believe, from the map, that it is called a Cerberus. The powerline has not been revealed yet.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> I still had it on the SD TiVo. The movement was definitely Michael's arm shadow. But there did appear to be a red splotch in front of Libby.


Here's an HD screen cap: http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x20-two/9/2fortheroad-cap809.jpg

There doesn't appear to be any blood coming from either woman. The red area in front of Libby is the floor tile.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Ok and the smoke monster is the 'visible' monster also? Or are they 2 different things? I distinctly recall some actual 'ghoulish' thing attacking them and them hiding inside an old tree or pile or vertical sticks etc. The monster appeared not to want to spend the effort in dismantling the tree, which still doesn't make sense to me.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

getbak said:


> Here's an HD screen cap: http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x20-two/9/2fortheroad-cap809.jpg
> 
> There doesn't appear to be any blood coming from either woman. The red area in front of Libby is the floor tile.


And there you go. Now it's all explained.

I did think it was odd the way Libby was carrying the pillow when she walked in. Kinda like they ran out of dye packs that day.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

RBlount said:


> That is what I was thinking. People "die" apparently after they come to terms with their issues. (That is also why I am in the Libby is NOT dead camp)
> 
> So about the Purgetory theory again?


Then how do you explain the pilot? The guy who gets sucked into the engine?

Greg


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

gchance said:


> Then how do you explain the pilot? The guy who gets sucked into the engine?
> 
> Greg


And the woman who drowned in an early episode.

And Steve...or was it Scott?


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## rlc1 (Sep 15, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Are you watching in high def?


I am watching in HD, yes - maybe that's why I could see it as a shadow instead of blood.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I apologize strongly if this is a smeek from this thread or any prior thread, or even in the Lost Experience thread (which I have not followed nor participated in):

But, the manuscript Sawyer had of "Bad Twin"........the author was Gary Troup.

Rearrange those letters and what do you get: Purgatory.

Again, may be a huge Smeek that I apologize for. Maybe its a red herring, who knows. Regardless, its little things like that that I love about this show.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jlb said:


> I apologize strongly if this is a smeek from this thread or any prior thread, or even in the Lost Experience thread (which I have not followed nor participated in):
> 
> But, the manuscript Sawyer had of "Bad Twin"........the author was Gary Troup.
> 
> ...


More on the book...

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-ulin19nov19,1,10677.story

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1401302769/104-6945862-2376729?v=glance&n=283155


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

betts4 said:


> That could be parallel to UNMARRIED sex. I say that since we are not sure if Sun's baby is Jin's or the bald guy we see Sun meet with in her flashbacks. This is/must be a moral island.


She didn't cheat!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> The following point is completely unrealistic...it is just a feeling I keep getting...
> 
> If I were reading the Lost story in a novel, rather than watching it, I would have the feeling that those who've died are those that have found resolution to their personal issues. Boone finally learned to let go of Shannon, Shannon finally found someone (Sayid) who loved her and would stay with her, Ana-Lucia finally conquers her desire for revenge when she doesn't/can't kill Not-Henry. Libby, it seems, was just collateral damage or perhaps she's not dead.


Artz finally got to go along with the "in" crowd, and helped out.. plus he got Kate's shirt off..

The girl swimming out in the ocean who drowned - maybe she had a fear of swimming? 

Why'd the co-pilot die? Finally achieved his lifelong goal of crashing an airplane into a remote island.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> The following point is completely unrealistic...it is just a feeling I keep getting...
> 
> If I were reading the Lost story in a novel, rather than watching it, I would have the feeling that those who've died are those that have found resolution to their personal issues. Boone finally learned to let go of Shannon, Shannon finally found someone (Sayid) who loved her and would stay with her, Ana-Lucia finally conquers her desire for revenge when she doesn't/can't kill Not-Henry. Libby, it seems, was just collateral damage or perhaps she's not dead.


Ooh, and Charlie _almost_ licked his problem, and almost died (hung).. but he was lived, and continued his problem.

Does that mean that by Locke trying to help people, he's inadvertantly killing them? (which might not be a bad thing if they're all in purgatory, despite what the writers want to admit)


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> If I were reading the Lost story in a novel, rather than watching it, I would have the feeling that those who've died are those that have found resolution to their personal issues. Boone finally learned to let go of Shannon, Shannon finally found someone (Sayid) who loved her and would stay with her, Ana-Lucia finally conquers her desire for revenge when she doesn't/can't kill Not-Henry. Libby, it seems, was just collateral damage or perhaps she's not dead.


I'd guess this intentional from the writers, but not necessarily significant in an island mythology type of way. I recall that in an interview with Maggie Grace after Shannon's death, she said something along this line.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> The following point is completely unrealistic...it is just a feeling I keep getting...
> 
> If I were reading the Lost story in a novel, rather than watching it, I would have the feeling that those who've died are those that have found resolution to their personal issues. Boone finally learned to let go of Shannon, Shannon finally found someone (Sayid) who loved her and would stay with her, Ana-Lucia finally conquers her desire for revenge when she doesn't/can't kill Not-Henry. Libby, it seems, was just collateral damage or perhaps she's not dead.


Counterevidence: Rose certainly came to terms with her 'illness'. And her husband abandoned his quest to leave the island also coming to terms with her situation. Eko renounced violence, and acted out in pennance to Henry.

If the arguement is that these folks weren't sincere, then what substantive evidence do we have for Shannon and AL's sincerity?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

philw1776 said:


> Counterevidence: Rose certainly came to terms with her 'illness'. And her husband abandoned his quest to leave the island also coming to terms with her situation. Eko renounced violence, and acted out in pennance to Henry.
> 
> If the arguement is that these folks weren't sincere, then what substantive evidence do we have for Shannon and AL's sincerity?


Yeah but who knows what else Eko and Rose have that they also have to resolve?


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## jimborst (Aug 30, 2001)

Libby:


Spoiler



A friend seen someone on a talk show (don't remember which one) but she said that Libby was dead and they had the funeral scenes filmed. I am just as shocked, I thought there would be a Jack saves the day thing, and Micheal would have to try to keep her quiet so no one finds out he was the killer.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

philw1776 said:


> Counterevidence: Rose certainly came to terms with her 'illness'. And her husband abandoned his quest to leave the island also coming to terms with her situation. Eko renounced violence, and acted out in pennance to Henry.
> 
> If the arguement is that these folks weren't sincere, then what substantive evidence do we have for Shannon and AL's sincerity?


Well, if you buy the theory, then the best evidence is that



Spoiler



*they're both dead*, while Rose, Bernard, and Eko are not. 



Plus, Rose, Bernard, and Eko might very well be sincere, but there might be more to their backstories that we haven't seen yet which would show that they really haven't achieved closure just yet.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Anyone read the latest diary entry yet? Spoilerizing just in case:


Spoiler



Assuming that the author is still the same, and that "Steve" is the brother, then the theory about the real Henry Gale being Rose's brother kinda goes out the window.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> Anyone read the latest diary entry yet? Spoilerizing just in case:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Seems like the diary entries are confirming that some of the Losties are getting the sickness that Danielle spoke of.


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## thatmeowgirl (Oct 8, 2004)

Finale spoiler from Lindelof:


Spoiler



05/09 - Damon Lindelof: The finale is "a battle between faith and reason on the same playing field, where it all began." (and some suggest it all began on the plane) Source: Kristin on E!Online



And another spoiler re: Libby


Spoiler



05/09 - Libby is not dead, yet. Source: Kristin on E!Online


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

All I know if that if Jack is going to save the day medically, Libby better hope she needs CPR. The only ones Jack has been able to "save" to this point required CPR. Island medicine hasn't worked too well for any one else so far. And Libby looks to need more than CPR. 

The island is funny about who and how it determines "resolving your issue". Boone took time, Shannon was a little faster but still took time, whereas with AL it was pretty much instantaneous. In his own way so was Arzt, but ...

And Arzt got in with the "in crowd"? Arzt got *on* the "in crowd"! And he died still *****ing just as much as he was in the security checkpoint line getting on Flight 815. I don't think he resolved anything.

Then someone's gotta explain why Hurley, Rose, Bernard and Sun are even there in the first place. Claire was even portrayed as an angel once. Much be pretty easy to get into this Purgatory. And giving birth in Purgatory would be kind of new - how do you justify the child being being there?


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

TR7spyder said:


> Bonded Henry, all 150lbs of him, almost suffocating AL (an ex-cop and a pretty tuff woman).


Which means he probably outweighed her by 30 pounds, and though it might be un-PC to point out, men really _are_ stronger than women, a lot stronger in most cases.


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## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

tivogurl said:


> Which means he probably outweighed her by 30 pounds, and though it might be un-PC to point out, men really _are_ stronger than women, a lot stronger in most cases.


Reality? How dare you bring a reality check into a Lost thread?  

But in this show, they portray her as a quite a fighter. She killed one ~200lbs 6+ man and took-on another 6+ man (Sawyer), be it not very successfully. And now, we are supposed to believe that a tiny, wounded and bound guy almost kills her? That didnt agree with the rest of the story line.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

TR7spyder said:


> But in this show, they portray her as a quite a fighter. She killed one ~200lbs 6+ man and took-on another 6+ man (Sawyer), be it not very successfully. And now, we are supposed to believe that a tiny, wounded and bound guy almost kills her? That didnt agree with the rest of the story line.


You're forgetting the strength Ethan had.

Greg


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

gchance said:


> You're forgetting the strength Ethan had.
> 
> Greg


...maybe the vaccine adds strength as well, possibly as a side effect?

15 minutes til the next episode..


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