# resale value of TiVos



## Dazbear (Aug 24, 2001)

Just moved over to the darkside and bought myself a Toppy.

Am a bit disappointed with the resale of TiVos on ebay of late - they seemed to have dropped in price. The two I have been watching have just gone for £35 and £36. They were going for hundreds!

Do you think this may be due to people getting more PVR savvy? The recent introduction of series link on freeview?

Just wondering if I should hold out and see if the price goes up.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

Dazbear said:


> Am a bit disappointed with the resale of TiVos on ebay of late - they seemed to have dropped in price. The two I have been watching have just gone for £35 and £36. They were going for hundreds!


Must have another look. I was looking for a second Tivo a while back but the prices were too high.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Bah, must have missed those two! 

I noticed a lifetime subbbed tivo slip past at £130 or something last week.

Of course there is a risk attached to buying tivos from ebay if they don't state they are fully tested & working...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

There was a Buy It Now Tivo With Lifetime Sub 2 x 120Gb hard drives and Turbonet for £200 with 9 days to go a few days back.

I was almost tempted except it was a Turbonet and the hard drives would be sure to be about to expire. Still lower than anything else I have see on Buy It Now for that price with that spec though.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

The ebay prices recently have been very low.

I suspect maybe Sky dropping the £10 charge for SKY+ from the 1st July, the freeview ones, and media center (Use this more than tivo now with a 360 extender).

See Chit Chat Thread for a way of getting a 360 for effectively £137. (great media C extender) http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5210972#post5210972

I saw some 40Gig Ones for £40 yesterday on clearance, the old humax.

We all love tivo functionality, but with a 40g £40 freeview PVR and SKY+ for free subs, I don't think I could convince anyone now to get a tivo with a £10 PCM charge.

Shame as it is still the best available


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

6022tivo said:


> We all love tivo functionality, but with a 40g £40 freeview PVR and SKY+ for free subs, I don't think I could convince anyone now to get a tivo with a £10 PCM charge.
> 
> Shame as it is still the best available


But that's exactly why you should be convincing people to get a TiVo!

The fact you can get all manner of other rubbish for less money has never been a valid reason not to go for the best - in whatever category of purchase - as long as you can afford it. After all, how many people would buy a Lada if they could afford a Bentley?

With the recent fall in TiVo prices on eBay people can pick up a lifetime subbed machine (*no* monthly charge) for a couple of hundred quid all-in - and for the best PVR available bar none, that's still a bargain :up:


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

The actual physical size of the Tivo box does not help its second hand sales.

I imagine if you were making one now you could make it nearly as small as an AppleTV box.

With of course just three HDMI connectors on the back 

Automan.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Bung it behind the TV - physical size, irrelevant


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

_Shame as it is still the best available_

I am thinking of retracting that statement...

I am finding the functions of the media center a lot easier, I can program, view the guide from any PC, and watch anything it has recorded/recording on any PC streamed...

You can tweak it a lot better, and the picture quality is better (Freeview card)......
And it is much cheaper... Hmmm


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Unfortunately it's only the best in certain areas; in others, like picture quality, neatness and the ability to record two things at once, it is not.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

It's still the best _*P V R*_... (ie. Personal Video Recorder)

I remember in the early days when people made a bit of a thing out of explaining the difference between a PVR which learned and understood your viewing preferences and scheduled recordings automatically _on your behalf_ and a DVR which was just like a VCR but with a hard drive, but now the terms seem to be used interchangeably by just about everybody - even wikipedia 

Come to think of it, do TiVo even still describe their product as a _P_VR?


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

I think that the distinction between PVR and DVR has become a bit blurred, but I believe that any DVR that can ...

Pause live TV,
Remember series links (however long the period between series),
Has a searchable EPG,
Stores the full programme description from the EPG with a recording, and
Allows you to start watching a recording before it has completed (i.e. 'chase play')
... probably has the right to call itself a PVR.

'Chase Play', and the storage of EPG data with a recording, seem to be the biggest problem for a lot of cheaper DVRs.

I also think that the PVR term is a little too restrictive, in that the additional media-playing facilities and network-serving abilities of Windows MCE makes it a lot more than just a PVR. In that regard, it's not even 'personal' any more, since with multiple tuners, and multiple independent users (via Xbox 360 extenders), it can serve many people at once.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

A huge number of them don't have number 3 (search).

You could also disqualify MCE as its not really a consumer device - would you be happy pulling the plug on a windows box every night?


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Pulling the plug??

You could say the same for the tivo, it is a operating system and file system afterall???

I personally don't turn the things off every night.

The PC is a small cheap Sub £100 machine that runs my email, internet, newsgroup leaching, and mpeg conversions from download to xbox 360 format and works great. It also serves 3 360 extenders and a Kitchen Touchscreen TFT (mounted on a wall unit door). 

Again the hardware was a £100 small efficient machine.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

I think the point Mike was making was that *if* you did pull the plug on a Windows MCE box, it wouldn't be a happy chappy, whereas Tivo is designed for such 'rough' treatment.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

The poor pricing at the moment is all of the above and the fact that sales in general do tend to go quiet at this time of year (people saving for holidays etc). The trend sets for a while too because people look at the history and base their buy-it-nows and reserves on the last month etc so it takes a while to recover also.

I wouldn't be surprised if you see them go up again a bit after the summer season but by how much will depend on how saturated it is. A tivo search revealing more than 30 items (inc. spares etc) is a lot for the UK pages. If theres more than several systems for sale, thats also a lot!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ericd121 said:


> I think the point Mike was making was that *if* you did pull the plug on a Windows MCE box, it wouldn't be a happy chappy, whereas Tivo is designed for such 'rough' treatment.


In what way would it not be happy? So far as I am aware like a Tivo it simply wouldn't be able to record while its power was off.

Having run Windows XP for over 5 years now my experiencing is that it can be powered off suddenly without the operating systems suffering any terminal damage. Of course any program or utility running at the time the power went off might lose data but the same thing happens on a Tivo does it not (a lost recording for instance)?

When you refer to not being able to pull the plug on an MCE box surely you are thinking back to Windows 3.11 days???


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> In what way would it not be happy? So far as I am aware like a Tivo it simply wouldn't be able to record while its power was off.
> 
> Having run Windows XP for over 5 years now my experiencing is that it can be powered off suddenly without the operating systems suffering any terminal damage. Of course any program or utility running at the time the power went off might lose data but the same thing happens on a Tivo does it not (a lost recording for instance)?
> 
> When you refer to not being able to pull the plug on an MCE box surely you are thinking back to Windows 3.11 days???


They've done quite a lot to make MCE more robust to sudden power offs, but you can still provoke t into a "Safe mode Y/N" restart and some software (like Outlook) really doesn't like it.

I run my MCE box on a UPS, and I don't think I'm alone.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> They've done quite a lot to make MCE more robust to sudden power offs, but you can still provoke t into a "Safe mode Y/N" restart and some software (like Outlook) really doesn't like it.
> 
> I run my MCE box on a UPS, and I don't think I'm alone.


And you can provoke a Tivo in to clearing its var partition...............

And I have had my Tivo menus suddenly freeze and not recover at least 4 times in 4 years requiring a power off reboot. Admittedly it is rare though.

Never seen a forced Safe Mode on my PCs since I had XP but then have mainly been running laptops, so the same as having a UPS.

However occasionally I have had the system lock up due to virus attacks etc (before I became more paranoid and started running four different security products at once as I now do) and had to go for forced hold down the On button Power Off. But XP still managed to boot up as normal afterwards.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> And you can provoke a Tivo in to clearing its var partition...............


Not by turning it off. It's just that it's cleared as part of the startup routine so I guess you might think the restart _caused _ it..



> Never seen a forced Safe Mode on my PCs since I had XP but then have mainly been running laptops, so the same as having a UPS.
> 
> However occasionally I have had the system lock up due to virus attacks etc (before I became more paranoid and started running four different security products at once as I now do) and had to go for forced hold down the On button Power Off. But XP still managed to boot up as normal afterwards.


Never seen a PC seriously harmed by it, but I have had "Windows did not start propelry last time, do you want to load in Safe mode" a few times." And of course it's a PC, so it may be doing other things which don't recover so tidly, as I said like Outlook.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> And of course it's a PC, so it may be doing other things which don't recover so tidly, as I said like Outlook.


Outlook is a disgraceful piece of junk that has had endless features added to it through different editions but has never been debugged of its basic unreliability where it suddenly decides to hang when you press the Send button on some long and well worded email you have just invested 30 minutes in. And no copy in the Drafts folder either. Ouch.

I don't think Outlook's unreliability is the fault of Windows XP though. It was every bit as bad under Windows 98 and Windows 2000.

Also it keeps all its email in just one PST actual physical file on the hard drive (unless you manually create a new one periodically) and yet can't cope if the file ever gets over 1 GB in size. This is generally when it starts hanging all the time but doesn't give you any warning that the actual problem, other than that your PST file is now too big for it to cope with.


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> Also it keeps all its email in just one PST actual physical file on the hard drive (unless you manually create a new one periodically) and yet can't cope if the file ever gets over 1 GB in size.


Jeez, what version of Outlook are you using 1GB limit....I bet you are also complaining about 640K being a limit as well.....

Outlook XP (with update), 2003, 2007 file size limit is 1.9TB (with a warning set to 20GB), not too sure where you get 1GB from, Outlook 98, 2000 was 2GB.


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## spid3r (Dec 14, 2002)

Dazbear said:


> The two I have been watching have just gone for £35 and £36.


I won that one for £36! The thing's in perfect nick. Still had the protective plastic on the front bezel. It's now happily running with a cachecard and a 320GB disk.


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## johala_reewi (Oct 30, 2002)

Can you still get the lifetime sub for a UK tivo? Thought I read somewhere it had been stopped (or was that just in the USA)?


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Just the USA - lifetime subs are still for sale in the UK :up:


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Ian_m said:


> Outlook XP (with update), 2003, 2007 file size limit is 1.9TB (with a warning set to 20GB), not too sure where you get 1GB from, Outlook 98, 2000 was 2GB.


Am using Outlook 2000 out of financial economy here, although am considering giving Thunderbird 2 a spin. Thunderbird 1 only showed you a message time for the clock time of the message sender, which I found unacceptable given how many email senders have clocks with wrong times. So brand new emails didn't always appear at the bottom of the list. Whereat Outlook allows you bothe Sent time and Received time. So far as the 1Gb limit is concerned perhaps that was Outlook 95 or Outlook 98 then.

Have they fixed the periodic message crashes Outlook when pressing Send without saving problem in the latest version then? Usually Microsoft never bother with bug fixes and only keep adding new features that nobody actually needs.  :down:

I suppose I should get Outlook 2007 or whatever it is but I just can't stomach paying the official price for a new copy of Microsoft Office.


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## johala_reewi (Oct 30, 2002)

why not give Eudora a go? You can still use the free sponsored version 7.1 while the open source version is being developed.

http://www.eudora.com/


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

johala_reewi said:


> why not give Eudora a go? You can still use the free sponsored version 7.1 while the open source version is being developed.
> 
> http://www.eudora.com/


Is Eudora any better than Mozilla Thunderbird?


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## SilkMan (Feb 13, 2007)

Pete77 said:


> Is Eudora any better than Mozilla Thunderbird?


That's a leading question - I've used both and they do the job but if you need something specific then you should take a look at the feature list and/or try them out for yourself - you can test them against a yahoo or google mail account (using POP) for evaluation purposes.


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> I suppose I should get Outlook 2007 or whatever it is but I just can't stomach paying the official price for a new copy of Microsoft Office.


Using Outlook 2007 at work (used 2000 before upgrade) but stuck at 2000 at home. Not had any issues with Outllook2000 crashing a very stable product.

To keep your PST file below say 1G for example, just set up the Autoarchive to move things off to another PST file every say month to say Archive.PST. Every year or so rename this file Archve 1999-2001.PST and start the Archive again. I have archive PST's all the way back to when starting with Outlook 98. You just open the .PST files in Outlook to get access to their content.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Ian_m said:


> Using Outlook 2007 at work (used 2000 before upgrade) but stuck at 2000 at home. Not had any issues with Outllook2000 crashing a very stable product.


Are there any feature enhancements or revisions in Outlook 2007 that seem to be useful rather than being just the usual Microsoft Bloatware?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Yes, a proper search facility which works properly and instantly is the main one. I hate using Outlook 2003 in the office now.

The Office 2007 suite is (for once) a major step on from what went before.


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

TCM2007 said:


> The Office 2007 suite is (for once) a major step on from what went before.


 I agree, which is why we are moving to Outllook 2007 at work. Most people at work are stuck on Outlook 98 (as was a free CD from MS at one time), 2000 and one or two Outllook XP. We saw no business advantage in moving to Outlook 2003.

We are either buying new copies of Outlook 2007 (£60) or getting new OEM copies of Office 2007 (+Vista) with replacement machines, or even we have been getting 320GB harddisks with OEM Office 2007 Basic + OEM Vista for £250 and using these in new machines.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Ian_m said:


> We are either buying new copies of Outlook 2007 (£60) or getting new OEM copies of Office 2007 (+Vista) with replacement machines, or even we have been getting 320GB harddisks with OEM Office 2007 Basic + OEM Vista for £250 and using these in new machines.


Office 2007 Small Business Edition is about £150 or something including VAT so may be the one to go for.

It just goes against the grain to pay Microsoft any more money.


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> It just goes against the grain to pay Microsoft any more money.


Can't see what the problem is. You pays your money and to get a professional business type product. There are "free" alternatives, but nothing comes near MS offerings at all.

The reason I can say this is I have been evaluating servers, server OS's, mail servers, email clients etc since October (jeez that long.....) getting to play with lots of hardware and software all types of Linux servers, mail servers etc etc really been quite interesting and eye opening.

In the end the only choice was Server 2003, Exchange 2007 and Outlook 2007, which is probably why they are so popular and basically work out considerably cheaper in the long run than any other offering. Its not just the cost of the software to consider.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Ian_m said:


> The reason I can say this is I have been evaluating servers, server OS's, mail servers, email clients etc since October (jeez that long.....) getting to play with lots of hardware and software all types of Linux servers, mail servers etc etc really been quite interesting and eye opening.
> 
> In the end the only choice was Server 2003, Exchange 2007 and Outlook 2007, which is probably why they are so popular and basically work out considerably cheaper in the long run than any other offering. Its not just the cost of the software to consider.


OK interesting observations.

But then how is it that Linux was a far more suitable platform for a robust and resilient PVR than any Microsoft offering of the time?

You will note that the new BT Vision PVR for which the software comes from Microsoft is so far widely reported to be complete pants and totally unstable and unreliable. Of course Microsoft may get there in the end but it seems a shame that BT customers were charged for the privilege of being guinea pigs for the development and testing of the service................


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> But then how is it that Linux was a far more suitable platform for a robust and resilient PVR than any Microsoft offering of the time?


That was in 1999 when the TiVo was designed, we are now talking 2007.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Ian_m said:


> That was in 1999 when the TiVo was designed, we are now talking 2007.


And Linux has not advanced significantly in this time while Microsoft operating systems have you seem to be saying?

A shame that BT Vision doesn't work as yet then?


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> And Linux has not advanced significantly in this time while Microsoft operating systems have you seem to be saying?


Nope I was saying that in 1999 when the TiVo was designed Linux was the obvious choice especially as TiVo wanted to use their own file system.

I would have hoped that TiVo would not have even considered Windows 95/98 or NT4 as a suitable TiVo OS of the day.

Anyway in 1999 I was using Linux files servers no issues. OK had a file size limit of 2GB unlike NT4 server, but in those days 2GB files were a rare. We (at work) have since then slowly migrated over to Server 2003 machines, basically as the Linux support costs are too high. We were finding each Linux server issue we were having was costing on average 2 days of my time to fix (thats an average, some were instant some were not !!!), bearing in mind it is not my main job and downtime costs money and people sitting around complaining, so we had to move to Server 2003. Our main server was installed in Feb 2005 and yes we have had issues, most easily sorted (via MS knowledge base) but more importantly these issues have not caused people to be sitting around doing nothing whilst waiting for a fix (as thats my job, sitting around...  )


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> OK interesting observations.
> 
> But then how is it that Linux was a far more suitable platform for a robust and resilient PVR than any Microsoft offering of the time?......


Because it was free and save dthe TiVo engineers a ton of work building the basics from scratch. Would have taken a couple of years longer to have built from scratch. And TiVo only wanted the underlying OS systems, not the UI, which is what Microsoft embedded systems tend to be about.

I've been playing with Ubuntu, and I must say it's looking like a credible alternative as long as you have a slightly techy bent and are skint.


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## AFP1 (Feb 12, 2007)

Dazbear said:


> Just moved over to the darkside and bought myself a Toppy.
> 
> Am a bit disappointed with the resale of TiVos on ebay of late - they seemed to have dropped in price. The two I have been watching have just gone for £35 and £36. They were going for hundreds!
> 
> ...


 Depending on which Unit you are referring to, the Resale value cannot exceed the New Unit Prices! New S2DT Units have been sold for as little as $40.00 US, eventhough the are $100 Today! With till after Fathers Day, they will probably be $70 again!


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Well, as this is the *UK* Forum, it's a fair bet we're only talking about the S1


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

AFP1 said:


> Depending on which Unit you are referring to, the Resale value cannot exceed the New Unit Prices! New S2DT Units have been sold for as little as $40.00 US, eventhough the are $100 Today! With till after Fathers Day, they will probably be $70 again!


$40.00 ?

I got mine for Free! LOL


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## Dodgy (Feb 14, 2002)

There are a few reasons why TiVos are not fetching good prices second hand now. I think one of the reasons is that it only has an analogue tuner and the clock is ticking on analogue transmissions in the UK. There's the other issues such as only being able to record one program at once, too  
I love my TiVo, but I've just managed to get a realistic price for Sky HD (half price box, free installation and half price subscription for 12 months) so it's time to go 
I really will miss it, to TiVo is an adjective in our household  

Dave.


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

Dodgy said:


> I think one of the reasons is that it only has an analogue tuner and the clock is ticking on analogue transmissions in the UK.


You are totally wrong here Dave, in fact the source you use with your TiVo is entirely up to you - analogue/digital freeview or cable or satellite. So TiVo will not only remain unaffected by the analogue turnoff, but because TiVo can control a wide variety of external sources it will still be able to co-ordinate channel changes with timed recording unlike most VCRs and DVD recorders. It always bugs me in the analogue turnof publicity that they never refer to the main effect of the analogue turnoff will be that most video recording devices will be rendered totally useless. TiVo won't be. Alot of people are going to be very upset by this as evidenced by the rush on VCR cassettes when Dixons announced that they were going to stop selling them.

By the way do not expect much from SKY HD and the SKY + interface because it cannot hold a candle to what you have been use to from your TiVo even with HD.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

I am currently using one of my tivo for analogue only, it works really well. Any way of changing the channel number s to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, rather than the UHF freq.

Also the RF lead if fed from the lounge and the lounge tivo is showing as CH5 (must of been on this channel when searching) any way of changing that station ID to TiVo1 for example?? Obviously no guide data for this channel.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

6022tivo said:


> Any way of changing the channel number s to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, rather than the UHF freq.


In a word, no.  I can vague it up for you if you like


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## Dodgy (Feb 14, 2002)

Major dude said:


> You are totally wrong here Dave, in fact the source you use with your TiVo is entirely up to you - analogue/digital freeview or cable or satellite. So TiVo will not only remain unaffected by the analogue turnoff,


Surely you don't think I didn't realise that? Of course I do, but I and perhaps many others, don't want the additional STB to go with their TiVo. Besides, for me at least, the Heath Robinson IR wands weren't the most reliable of control devices 



Major dude said:


> By the way do not expect much from SKY HD and the SKY + interface because it cannot hold a candle to what you have been use to from your TiVo even with HD.


Again, you assume a bit too much there  I've already used a Sky HD setup and am happy enough with it. For the loss of certain cool features at least I'll be able to record two things at the same time And no matter how great TiVo is (and it is), it can't record HD content. Something else has always niggled me, too, I've never been able to get recorded widescreen content to display in the correct aspect ratio either, I've always assumed that TiVo doesn't 'understand' widescreen (could be wrong).

I have actually thought this through and I've been a keen TiVo evangelist for many years (I'll probably still be one), but the time has come to move on for me anyway.

I'm just like almost everybody else here, I would buy a new TiVo if it was available in the UK, but it isn't.

Thanks,
Dave.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Dodgy said:


> Something else has always niggled me, too, I've never been able to get recorded widescreen content to display in the correct aspect ratio either, I've always assumed that TiVo doesn't 'understand' widescreen (could be wrong).


You are! TiVo handles WS switching fine, so long as the cabling is right.


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

Dodgy said:


> Surely you don't think I didn't realise that? Of course I do, but I and perhaps many others, don't want the additional STB to go with their TiVo. Besides, for me at least, the Heath Robinson IR wands weren't the most reliable of control devices


Hold on Dave,

The basis of your contribution was that TiVo prices on ebay are being affected by the analogue turn-off. So I assumed you considered it to be dependent on analogue yourself which it turns out is how in fact you use your TiVo. If you did not mean to make this assumption then I can only assume you meant that other people were under the impression that TiVo is dependent on analogue and that was the reason that they were not interested in buying TiVos on ebay, an impression that I felt I had to challenge.

I would not say I never had problems with channel changes using wands or the dongle..... but most of the time it is pretty reliable to the point where a failure is an unexpected event.

When freeview became available and also I moved into an NTL cable area and I found out that TiVo could control channel changes and recordings from either source I realised how useful a TiVo could be and ended up buying two of them at under a ton each. THis is why post analogue turn-off I would argue that the prices of ebay Tivos should be going up not down


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## Dodgy (Feb 14, 2002)

Ok, no problem. I guess what I'm saying is that in my opinion at least, TiVos are likely to suffer in second hand value in the light of analogue switch off in the same way that analogue TVs would. Not everyone wants to use a set-top box. Consumers have a choice, a second hand TiVo with analogue tuner and a clumsy add on STB, or a Sky+/freeview digital all in one solution.
There's probably lots of reasons why TiVos are now fetching prices a fraction of what they were achieving a year or two ago. But the fact remains, they're approaching near scrap value. I'm just hoping that some day, TiVo will reenter the UK market.
Dave.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

Dodgy said:


> Not everyone wants to use a set-top box. Consumers have a choice, a second hand TiVo with analogue tuner and a clumsy add on STB, or a Sky+/freeview digital all in one solution.


Nah, I don't buy that at all. I would always prefer a device that doesn't have any other legacy technology built into it at all. I think many people don't use the analog tuner in the Tivo anyway and this is a prime example of building in something that is no longer required. I would much rather have a DVR with the ability to add-on an input device like a set-top-box and have the luxury of switching between medium formats and newer set-top-boxes as they become available.

As stated previously, the sales always drop at this time of the year and hence so does the value of second hand equipment. Whether its because of people saving for holidays etc I don't know, just an assumption. Perhaps the added fear of interest rises etc may be having an impact also this year, its certainly slowing down the housing market. I've noticed this part of the year slow down ever since I've been trading, its just in previous years no-one has started a thread about it.


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## TheBear (Feb 21, 2001)

Ian_m said:


> IAnyway in 1999 I was using Linux files servers no issues. OK had a file size limit of 2GB unlike NT4 server, but in those days 2GB files were a rare. We (at work) have since then slowly migrated over to Server 2003 machines, basically as the Linux support costs are too high.


Eh? So you had "no issues" yet " support costs were "too high"??



> We were finding each Linux server issue we were having was costing on average 2 days of my time to fix (thats an average, some were instant some were not !!!), bearing in mind it is not my main job and downtime costs money and people sitting around complaining, so we had to move to Server 2003.


So it's not down to your comparative lack of knowledge of Linux?? 2 days to fix a Linux server smacks of lack of knowledge, rather than linux being somehow deficient.



> Our main server was installed in Feb 2005 and yes we have had issues, most easily sorted (via MS knowledge base) but more importantly these issues have not caused people to be sitting around doing nothing whilst waiting for a fix (as thats my job, sitting around...  )


So..."no issues" with Linux and "issues" with MS...and you are arguing that MS is the better option??!


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

TheBear said:


> Eh? So you had "no issues" yet " support costs were "too high"??


Yes in 1999 "no issues" but as things changed, more disks, bigger tape support etc the associated support costs rose as well. Things like Gb Ethernet cards caused stability issues, poor performance in SCSI drivers (only Ultra SCSI 80Mb/s in those days). Lack of modern hardware support (in 2002-2004 timescale) was the issue. It was just the accumulation of lots of little things that drive up costs forcing us to look elsewhere.

We purchased loads of new server hardware and spent ages evaluation Red Hat, SUSE, Server 2003 etc before rolling out Server 2003.

I have just finshed about 6 months of the same on and off investigations of mail servers. Unfortutately right at the start got a beta of Exchange 2007, Outlook 2007 and SharePoint that immediately wrote off any other offering just due to ease of use, ease of collaboration and basically very very useful in a business environment. IMHO Exchange 2007 + Outlook 2007 + SharePoint is a reall killer suite.


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## ScoobyDooZ (Sep 28, 2005)

I have 2 excellent condition Tivos in my loft.

Had a Tivo fail on me a few years back and snapped up a couple as I didnt want to go without it again. I would rather have a back up one (or 2) that is not being used than have to go through ebay ands pick up another that has been going non stop for 8 years.

The prices will fall as people get Sky+ and Virgins effort, but I have heard iof people coming back to Tivo. So I think prices will rise again as fewer and fewr boxes are for sale.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ScoobyDooZ said:


> So I think prices will rise again as fewer and fewr boxes are for sale.


I have to say I don't agree with that as the advent of two tuner Freeview Playback boxes with Series Link, the belief of the average person that they must get an HDTV and be able to watch HDTV on it and the fact that Sky have now drastically lowered the entry point for Sky+ all mean that Tivo prices will continue to fall away to near zero for non lifetime subscribed boxes and only between £100 and £200 for Lifetime subscribed boxes, depending on whether they also have a Cachecard and RAM and/or a larger hard drive.

However I suspect prices this winter for secondhand Tivos may be a little higher than some of the very low prices for Tivos seen during the recent summer weeks.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

An unmodified 40GB lifetime tivo just went for £256 a few minutes ago on an ebay auction,
so maybe everyone's back from holidays now ?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> An unmodified 40GB lifetime tivo just went for £256 a few minutes ago on an ebay auction, so maybe everyone's back from holidays now


Yes I saw that one at a high price earlier and thought that might happen. They tend to go for a silly high price when there hasn't been one with a Lifetime Sub on offer for a while and a low price when several are on sale at once. In other words the usual law of supply and demand applies.

I picked up my second Lifetime Sub machine with a Cachecard and 512MB of RAM plus a Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 drive and professional ethernet socket on the back of the Tivo for the Cachecard for £215 3 weeks or so ago on Ebay. And then another unit with the same spec apart from the professional ethernet socket went for exactly the same price a week or so later. But then I saw a Lifetime Sub machine go for only £100 plus £20 delivery or something a week or so later and as a Cachecard and 512MB of RAM were on sale for only £80 inlcuding delivery on Ebay I sort of figured out that buying that machine and then the Cachecard and RAM and a 400Gb HDLD drive for £56 would have given me a slightly higher spec machine for almost the same money.

The main problem with the machine I bought is that the seller had bought it from someone else a year earlier allegedly and says he did not get the Lifetime sub transferred to him so he cannot transfer it to me. Yet it shows as 5 Lifetime and dials up without issue. So I now I learn my lesson to only buy a Lifetime Sub Tivo from someone who says he has been the original owner from the outset. I sort of half wondered if the Lifetime Sub could be cloned from another unit but when you do the sums on buying a non Lifetime Sub machine (say £50 including delivery) and then a Cachecard and 256MB of RAM (about £83 inc delivery from the cheap Ebay seller) and then the 250Gb Seagate (about £35) it would surely hardly be worth the bother with all the labour and only a final £215 selling price.

I still worry though what might happen if I need to change to the other Tivo software version if I or my relative get a tv that is not compatible with the current software version................

Still when I put in my maximum bid with Hammersnipe I never really thought I would win it as previously machines with that spec had been going for around £290 or £300 on Ebay only a few months earlier.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> The main problem with the machine I bought is that the seller had bought it from someone else a year earlier and says he did not get the Lifetime sub transferred to him so he cannot transfer it to me.


That's quite common, as lifetime tivos are bought and sold IME.


> Yet it shows as 5 Lifetime and dials up without issue.


So where's the problem then?! You haven't lost anything at all.

The sub is officially for the unit's lifetime, not the owner.
I'm pretty sure my original lifetime receipt said it wasn't even transferrable...

Or did you want to transfer the sub onto another machine?
That's the only scenario where you'd need to be the registered owner.
..and even that is not officially allowed in tivo's agreement.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Or did you want to transfer the sub onto another machine?
> That's the only scenario where you'd need to be the registered owner.
> ..and even that is not officially allowed in tivo's agreement.


No I was more concerned if I or my relative needed to ever change to 2.5.5a due to a new tv or if Tivo ever started marketing a new Tivo in the UK and offered an upgrade path for existing Lifetime Subbed units or if for some reason my EPG data stopped updating and it appeared to be due to Tivo changing something on their database.

I did notice that what I believe to be the subscription chip had a very different kind of sticker on it from my other three Tivos (my original unit and then the one non subbed but fully functional one from the guy in Crawley and the dodgy Tivo that I got from the house clearers that PayPal gave me a full refund on), which started me thinking about whether it could be cloned.

Despite the professional ethernet socket that was fitted in the back of the unit the guy who did it had then also fitted a long ethernet cable from the Cachecard to the socket that he had allowed to dangle and sit on the motherboard and had also managed to leave part of the IDE cable sitting right in the middle of and in contact with the power supply unit - both those faults have now been corrected. However having said all that the unit seems to work perfectly so far and a full cloning of my own Tivoweb (in place of the vanilla one included with it) and hacks setup on to the unit was entirely successful as I also remembered to edit rc.sysinit file and to implement the revised No Flicker and Mode 0 fp file before rebooting. All that remains is to teach my mother Tivo. I still worry if I have done the right thing and whether Freeview Playback with Series Link might not have been a more forward looking move. On the other hand I know that people actually use their Tivos whereas they frequently don't use other devices because they are so hard to understand and my mum has absolutely no interest in going for HDTV.


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## Dazbear (Aug 24, 2001)

well it has come to a point where I have time to list my TiVo on ebay and the prices haver really bottomed out - unmodified TiVo without life subs selling for £15 plus p&p.

hmmm

I have to say having had a Toppy for 6 weeks the TiVo now seems old technology. The MyStuff TAP which can be added free of charge has all the functionality of TiVo plus more (better picture quality etc) I now feel a bit conned by paying my £10 per month for the software when other PVRs had similar functionality out there for nothing. 

Admittedly it doesnt have the thumbs up/down suggestion function - but I always found this useless anyways - taping CbbC cartoons on my behalf.

I have series links which do not time out and searchable wishlists which lie dormant. Plus EPG that automatically updates over air and doesnt cost me a penny.

Anyways, my TiVo has served me well for the past 4 years, it has been a great foot hold into PVR technology for me, but now I am glad I have moved on. 

D
x


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Dazbear said:


> well it has come to a point where I have time to list my TiVo on ebay and the prices haver really bottomed out - unmodified TiVo without life subs selling for £15 plus p&p.


Yeah, actually a bit less... call it £15 inc p&p ... paypal ok? 

It'll save you the ebay fees


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## SilkMan (Feb 13, 2007)

Pete77 said:


> No I was more concerned if I or my relative needed to ever change to 2.5.5a due to a new tv


I am in the same position - a lifetime subbed Tivo from ebay but the previous owner never swapped the registration into their name from the original owner. I, however, needed the 2.5.5a to work with my current TV - it took about 5mins to update it manually  
Of course, should a Tivo upgrade occur, and the partition gets swapped, then I'll need to re-apply the fix, but it really is nothing to worry about.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Dazbear said:


> I have to say having had a Toppy for 6 weeks the TiVo now seems old technology. The MyStuff TAP which can be added free of charge has all the functionality of TiVo plus more (better picture quality etc) I now feel a bit conned by paying my £10 per month for the software when other PVRs had similar functionality out there for nothing.


I think a Toppy with the add ons you describe against a basic Tivo like yours might seem quite a reasonable alternative but for those of us who have a Cachecard and Tivoweb and modules like Highlights and DailyMail running I suspect we would still find a Toppy a very poor substitute. Especially if we also have a Lifetime Sub. Also I wonder how stable all these add ons on the Toppy are?

As and when Freeview Playback extends the spec to get Series Link working properly on all major BBC, ITV, C4 and Five channels and gets the equivalent of PDC in operation (so if programs run late a Freeview Playback box will record them exactly to time) then the case that a dual tuner Freeview Playback box is as good as a Tivo will start to become stronger.

I find it interesting you are prepared to spend over 200 quid on a Toppy but wouldn't spend the £120 or so that is all that is now required to add a Cachecard and RAM and a 250Gb hard drive to your Tivo. Of course I think your failure to invest in the Lifetime Sub originally was probably the real killer there.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

SilkMan said:


> I am in the same position - a lifetime subbed Tivo from ebay but the previous owner never swapped the registration into their name from the original owner. I, however, needed the 2.5.5a to work with my current TV - it took about 5mins to update it manually
> 
> Of course, should a Tivo upgrade occur, and the partition gets swapped, then I'll need to re-apply the fix, but it really is nothing to worry about.


It seems I have wrongly been led to believe that if the Tivo database finds you using 2.5.5a when it is expecting 2.5.5 that it objects and that this hangs the completion of the daily call.

It seems as though this is not the case as long as one merely amends the relevant file manually using FTP as you describe?

Of course we are still stuffed if Tivo ever decides to return to the UK and offer a conversion price for those with Lifetime Subs. Of course what's the betting that Sky will conveniently fry the customer database if Tivo ever asks them to send out a mailing to this effect.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> I did notice that what I believe to be the subscription chip had a very different kind of sticker on it from my other three Tivos (my original unit and then the one non subbed but fully functional one from the guy in Crawley and the dodgy Tivo that I got from the house clearers that PayPal gave me a full refund on), which started me thinking about whether it could be cloned.


You can "clone" entirely in software, no need to touch the crypto chip.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> I find it interesting you are prepared to spend over 200 quid on a Toppy but wouldn't spend the £120 or so that is all that is now required to add a Cachecard and RAM and a 250Gb hard drive to your Tivo.


Dual tuners and better picture quality, perhaps.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> It seems I have wrongly been led to believe that if the Tivo database finds you using 2.5.5a when it is expecting 2.5.5 that it objects and that this hangs the completion of the daily call.
> 
> It seems as though this is not the case as long as one merely amends the relevant file manually using FTP as you describe?


If the TiVo database thinks you should be on 2.5.5a and finds you on 2.5.5 it will upgrade you 9and trash all your hacks). I don't think it cares the othere way round.

Anyway if your TiVo is hacked you can manually change to 2.5.5a by copying a single file.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Dual tuners and better picture quality, perhaps.


Or I guess some people never liked the idea of messing with screwdrivers and Linux as I remember Daz asking us a lot of questions with that possibility in mind but then deciding against it. Also I think his Tivo had a sound problem which hardly helps.


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## Prat77 (Apr 14, 2007)

Pete77 said:


> I find it interesting you are prepared to spend over 200 quid on a Toppy but wouldn't spend the £120 or so that is all that is now required to add a Cachecard and RAM and a 250Gb hard drive to your Tivo.
> 
> As and when Freeview Playback extends the spec to get Series Link working properly...


The £120 becomes £320 by the time you add on a lifetime sub - quite a difference!

As for series link on freeview playback devices - did Freeview not drop all references to the feature 6 months ago or so? I'm not sure when or if we'll ever see the feature implemented.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Prat77 said:


> As for series link on freeview playback devices - did Freeview not drop all references to the feature 6 months ago or so? I'm not sure when or if we'll ever see the feature implemented.


Series Link was mentioned as coming soon on the marketing I saw for a Topfield Freeview PVR that was also branded Freeview Playback that I saw in a Currys Digital only a few days ago.

My understanding is that Series Link is very much part of the Freeview Playback spec for higher end Freeview PVR machines like the Topfield, it just isn't a compulsory requirement in order to qualify for the basic Freeview Playback branding. Basically because the makers of the crap Freeview PVRs complained they wouldn't be able to then sell their units. The availability of the feature also relies on the further enhancement of the Metadata by the main broadcasters, although the BBC already supports this feature.

By the way I notice a pattern to the rare moments when you seem to post Prat77. Does it have any connection with your choice of forum name and the content of the particular post you are responding to by any chance.


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## DX30 (May 22, 2005)

Prat77 said:


> As for series link on freeview playback devices - did Freeview not drop all references to the feature 6 months ago or so? I'm not sure when or if we'll ever see the feature implemented.


The BBC have been transmitting the required metadata since the end of 2006, and in recent months both C4 and ITV have also started. Sony have been selling a machine capable of series link recordings for several months.

You also get series link with the Thomson TUTV Anytime pvr - you can purchase without subscribing to TUTV and use this as a Freeview pvr. It uses the 4TV epg which is another source of series link metadata for Freeview.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

DX30 said:


> The BBC have been transmitting the required metadata since the end of 2006, and in recent months both C4 and ITV have also started. Sony have been selling a machine capable of series link recordings for several months.


Any idea when Five might decide to join the pack? I suppose it goes without saying that Sky won't be co-operating on Freeview but what about UK Tv and FlexTech etc.



> You also get series link with the Thomson TUTV Anytime pvr - you can purchase without subscribing to TUTV and use this as a Freeview pvr. It uses the 4TV epg which is another source of series link metadata for Freeview.


What else does the 4Tv data now support and how can it be cost effective for both sources to still exist? And is either reliable in terms of Series Link at this point in time?

Lastly does the Metadata being supplied for Series Link also inlcude the data required for the Freeview equivalent of VHS PDC or does that rely on a further enhancement to the Metadata in due course?

Thank you for your well informed and extremely helpful post.


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## SJC (Mar 21, 2004)

Oops sorry, I was looking for the Tivo forum, looks like I've stumbled upon some Windows / Office rants forum by mistake.
Bye.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> If the TiVo database thinks you should be on 2.5.5a and finds you on 2.5.5 it will upgrade you and trash all your hacks). I don't think it cares the othere way round.


It does - and it will try to "upgrade" you to 2.5.5 every night, then fail and abort the process (leaving you, eventually, with no guide data) when it realises the version it has downloaded is lower than the version you have


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> It does - and it will try to "upgrade" you to 2.5.5 every night, then fail and abort the process (leaving you, eventually, with no guide data) when it realises the version it has downloaded is lower than the version you have


Does that mean I need to test my Tivo with any tv I am thinking of buying for compatibility with 2.5.5?

By the way did you just get back from holiday? You seem to have been quiet for a while.


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## DX30 (May 22, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> Any idea when Five might decide to join the pack? I suppose it goes without saying that Sky won't be co-operating on Freeview but what about UK Tv and FlexTech etc.


Five are committed to providing the metadata for Freeview Playback, but I've no idea when they will get their act together. Historically Five's provision of Freeview EPG services has been patchy at best.

Sky do actually broadcast some series link metadata, and have for some time. It's only for a few programmes in the early hours, so is more of a test than a real service. I guess things went on hold when Sky decided they wanted to leave Freeview and launch a DTT pay service.

I don't know about the other channels, although like Five Flextech/UK TV are signed up to Freeview Playback.



Pete77 said:


> What else does the 4Tv data now support and how can it be cost effective for both sources to still exist? And is either reliable in terms of Series Link at this point in time?


Thomson now own 4TV. I guess offering a 14 day epg gives them some competitive advantage over other manufacturers using the 7day Freeview epg.

In my experience the BBC series link metadata on Freeview is very reliable. I've had no problems with ITV/C4 either but I don't think they have been running long enough to say one way or another.

I have had some problems with the Thomson, but whether that's the 4TV data or the machine is difficult to say for sure. On the plus side 4TV don't have to wait for the broadcasters and already do series link for Five etc.



Pete77 said:


> Lastly does the Metadata being supplied for Series Link also inlcude the data required for the Freeview equivalent of VHS PDC or does that rely on a further enhancement to the Metadata in due course?


The PDC equivalent uses the present/following eit data, and is independant of the series link metadata. As far as Freeview are concerned this "accurate recording" feature is higher priority than series link, being in phase 1 of the spec while series link is in phase 2.

Only the BBC seem to do accurate recording properly at present, deriving the data automatically from their playout suite in the same way as they do for Sky+ and analogue PDC.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

You seem very well informed on the topic DX30. Do you work in some part of the broadcasting industry?

Surely it was a huge mistake to not make Series Link a compulsory feature of a Freeview Playback box as without that feature it cannot be said that Freeview Playback is the Freeview equivalent of Sky+ but without a subscription.

The problem with 4TV data is surely that like TopUpTv itself it cannot be guaranteed not to go belly up and leave the PVR Itself useless.


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## Dazbear (Aug 24, 2001)

Pete77 is right - I had been having trouble with corrupt database on my TiVo and had to do a full guided set up to get me back on track, which annoyed me after 6 years of setting up season passes etc.

As for the TAPs - they seem stable enough, havent had any issues so far (touch wood).

Hmmm...so what is better over upgrading the TiVo ? Ermmm.....dual tuner, better pic and sound quality, OTA updated programme listings, ability to file away into folders and subfolders on-screen (not laptop), changable skins - but more than that - option to totally change menu look via different TAPs, season passes that are more configurable than TiVos (MyStuff TAP), no more lost starts and endings due to twin tuner allowing for more efficient padding etc, ability to edit programs on-screen, ability to use Toppy as MP3 and picture viewer......

Dont get me wrong the TiVo served me well for 6 years!!!! Also I would like to thank everyone on this forum for their support too.

D


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Dazbear said:


> Pete77 is right - I had been having trouble with corrupt database on my TiVo and had to do a full guided set up to get me back on track, which annoyed me after 6 years of setting up season passes etc.


Yeah, I can see how that would be annoying  I assume you don't have it networked or you could have backed-up the SPs first


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## Prat77 (Apr 14, 2007)

Pete77 said:


> By the way I notice a pattern to the rare moments when you seem to post Prat77.


  The weekend?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Prat77 said:


> The weekend?


Nope its when you think I have made a posting error that needs to be parodied via a post under the user name Prat.


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## Nero2 (Aug 22, 2005)

Prat77 said:


> The weekend?


I'm sorry to type this Prat77, but I do have to question your sincerity. From looking at your posts, I can see that they have value to add to this forum and hence to its members.

But your obvious provocative forum name and your combative nature with Pete77, makes me ask are you a sock? If I am wrong, my most abject apologies.

I have to admit I have no idea on the sock rules on this forum.

*ETA* Sorry, I've gone off topic, Ozat plase delete.


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## davisa (Feb 19, 2002)

I looked at a Toppy, but found the picture quality to be far worse than TiVo (with mode 0). I think this must simply be down to the poor quality of Freeview broadcasts, but that is a fundamental design problem with the Toppy. I use TiVo with Cable.

Each to their own. I really wanted to like the Toppy as I'm still paying TiVo £10 a month, but I just didn't feel it was a step foreword, but actually a significant step backwards.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

davisa said:


> Each to their own. I really wanted to like the Toppy as I'm still paying TiVo £10 a month, but I just didn't feel it was a step foreword, but actually a significant step backwards.


I hope you were able to get a refund on the Toppy?


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> By the way I notice a pattern to the rare moments when you seem to post Prat77. Does it have any connection with your choice of forum name and the content of the particular post you are responding to by any chance.


...a little harsh perhaps Peter? Remember, we are on probation for flaming!

Anyhow, like most things in the electronics world, the older they get the cheaper they become. Until of course they become as rare as rocking horse s***, then you'll see them sky rocket once again because die-hard enthusiasts want to buy up all the spares to keep their little boxes going.

_(By 'die-hard', I don't mean the series of films staring the Bruce Willis chappy... he wears vests a lot doesnt he! LOL  )_


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## Peathead77 (Jul 30, 2007)

I think he's paranoid about this names thing. Mind you, just because he is paranoid, it doesn't mean people don't think he's an arse.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Peathead77 said:


> I think he's paranoid about this names thing. Mind you, just because he is paranoid, it doesn't mean people don't think he's an arse.


Another new forum ID with a provocative name I see. I wonder which forum member this one belongs to.


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## davisa (Feb 19, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I hope you were able to get a refund on the Toppy?


Not needed, borrowed it from a friend to try out.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Nero2 said:


> I'm sorry to type this Prat77...are you a sock?
> I have to admit I have no idea on the sock rules on this forum.


Sock??


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## Rob Nespor Bellis (Feb 17, 2001)

I'm guessing Sock Puppet?

Rgds,

R.


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## Nero2 (Aug 22, 2005)

Rob Nespor Bellis said:


> I'm guessing Sock Puppet?
> 
> Rgds,
> 
> R.


Correct


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## Paranoid77 (Jul 30, 2007)

Pete77 said:


> Another new forum ID with a provocative name I see.


You think? No flies on you, eh?   :up:


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

Anyone found creating additional users on this forum will receive a ban!

Thread closed!


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