# New TiVo Pricing/Rebates



## ChuckyBox

Looking through the TiVo web site this morning, I discovered the following:

TiVo service activation:
$19.95/mo 1-year
$14.95/mo 2-year
$12.95/mo 3-year
$199/yr 1-yr
$299/yr 2-yr
$299/ry 3-yr

Theses prices appear to apply to all service plans now, whether the unit is purchased at retail or from tivo.com.

Rebates:
$220 for Series 2 540 single-tuner boxes
$180 for Series 2 dual-tuner boxes (264, 275, 565, 590, 595, 649)

Let the freak-out begin.


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## MikeMar

yes let the debate begin.

and i can pretty much guarantee THIS IS NOT TRUE


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## ChuckyBox

MikeMar said:


> and i can pretty much guarantee THIS IS NOT TRUE


Er, did you look? Since you "guarantee" that it's not true, what do we get if I'm right?

The $12.95 monthly plan doesn't appear anywhere, even when you go straight to the service activation page: http://www.tivo.com/3.0.asp, and is the same when you buy the box from TiVo.com.

For those who have been debating TiVo pricing all along, this move _is_ a price increase (but it brings the online and retail pricing in line, allowing TiVo to advertise more broadly for the holidays). It also makes the upfront payments cheaper than than monthly in all three categories.

For those who follow financials, TiVo is trading higher SAC for some combination of upfront cash/higher ARPU/longer commitment.


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## borderline

There are new multi-service discount rates too:

$13.95/mo 1 year commitment
$8.95/mo 2 year commitment
$6.95/mo 3 year commitment


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## MikeMar

borderline said:


> There are new multi-service discount rates too:
> 
> $13.95/mo 1 year commitment
> $8.95/mo 2 year commitment
> $6.95/mo 3 year commitment


freaking ridiculous they would do this!!! 3 year commitment to get to where the msd was before?

see if I buy any extra tivo's now just cause they were cheaper.

BS


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## ChuckyBox

borderline said:


> There are new multi-service discount rates too:
> 
> $13.95/mo 1 year commitment
> $8.95/mo 2 year commitment
> $6.95/mo 3 year commitment


Yep, just saw that myself: http://www.tivo.com/5.11.4.asp

I wonder if existing customers will continue to get the old rates? My guess is they'll be careful about increasing anyone's current pricing, and if people complain they'll get the old rates. Either that or TiVo is so incredibly confident in their subscription growth that they're willing to accept a lot of churn in existing subs. But given their sales so far this year, I'm going to say that's not likely.


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## MikeMar

I'm upset about the msd one cause i just ordered a dual tuner today and may cancel it if i have to sign up for 3 years to get the same rate i would have gotten last week


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## supasta

ChuckyBox said:


> I wonder if existing customers will continue to get the old rates?


This is what I want the answer to!


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## mike300

I think the new pricing plans make a lot of sense because they are now consistent between tivo.com and retail stores. The old pricing scheme was too confusing.


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## MikeMar

mike300 said:


> I think the new pricing plans make a lot of sense because they are now consistent between tivo.com and retail stores. The old pricing scheme was too confusing.


I don't get the 3 year commitment for the msd units, it discourages people from getting extra units now


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## bmgoodman

Look closely at the new terms of multi-service discount:
1. Discounted Monthly TiVo Service Fee. The MULTI-SERVICE DISCOUNT reduces the Monthly TiVo service or TiVo Plus service subscription fee by $6 per month to $6.95 per month for (3) years; $8.95 per month for (2) years; or $13.95 per month for (1) year while in compliance....

So, if I already have an eligible Tivo with lifetime or on which I am currently paying $12.95 per month, and I add a second Tivo, I can get a multi-service *discount* of $-1 to $13.95 per month when I commit to a year? 

Either Tivo is VERY bad at math, or they just let the cat out of the bag that they are raising the service fee. :down: :down: :down:

Every time I'm back in with Tivo, they do something *to keep pushing me back out.*


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## MikeMar

bmgoodman said:


> Look closely at the new terms of multi-service discount:
> 1. Discounted Monthly TiVo Service Fee. The MULTI-SERVICE DISCOUNT reduces the Monthly TiVo service or TiVo Plus service subscription fee by $6 per month to $6.95 per month for (3) years; $8.95 per month for (2) years; or $13.95 per month for (1) year while in compliance....
> 
> So, if I already have an eligible Tivo with lifetime or on which I am currently paying $12.95 per month, and I add a second Tivo, I can get a multi-service *discount* of $-1 to $13.95 per month when I commit to a year?
> 
> Either Tivo is VERY bad at math, or they just let the cat out of the bag that they are raising the service fee. :down: :down: :down:
> 
> Every time I'm back in with Tivo, they do something *to keep pushing me back out.*


well unless that means you can get the free unit from tivo if you pay the 13.95


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## supasta

MikeMar said:


> well unless that means you can get the free unit from tivo if you pay the 13.95


They are no longer including the box with the monthly pricing.

Example :

80HR DT - $69.99 ("One-Time box fee")
Monthly- $19.99 (With one-year plan)


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## MikeMar

WHere on the web site are you finding about the mutli-service info?

I physically have 2 dual tuners right now NOT activated, and want to read up on it.


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## bmgoodman

See http://www.tivo.com/5.11.4.asp for MSD details.

As for suggesting that it's $13.95/mo after getting the Tivo free, I would say that I can still get the DT free after rebate from the TC store with a one year commitment at the full $12.95/mo rate. So WHY would I EVER want a MSD rate of $13.95/mo??


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## mike300

bmgoodman said:


> As for suggesting that it's $13.95/mo after getting the Tivo free, I would say that I can still get the DT free after rebate from the TC store with a one year commitment at the full $12.95/mo rate. So WHY would I EVER want a MSD rate of $13.95/mo??


I don't think so. There is no 1-year service only plan for $12.95 any more. It would be $19.95 for 1-year.


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## Einselen

Where is the rebate pricing at?

Thanks

I am also still miffed about this and the MSD pricing change is gonna confuse/piss off a lot more then anything now I think.


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## Seattle

It looks like the only way for me to get the monthly $6.95 price is to sign up for 3 years. Is that right? What happens to the price after the third year?


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## supasta

Seattle said:


> It looks like the only way for me to get the monthly $6.95 price is to sign up for 3 years. Is that right? What happens to the price after the third year?


Yes.
Well, assuming they don't change the prices again before that -

You will have to call and agree to a new contract tier and price at that time.


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## Einselen

Terms for after your prepaid or committment ends "Service only":



> 7. After the end of your monthly or prepaid commitment period, as applicable, your TiVo Service Only Payment Plan will continue on a month-to-month basis at the then applicable-rate for a one year commitment to the TiVo service.


Terms for after your prepaid or committment ends "package deal":



> 12. After the end of your monthly or prepaid commitment period, as applicable, your TiVo Package Payment Plan will continue on a monthly basis at the then-applicable rate for a one (1), two (2), or three (3) year monthly TiVo Package based on whether your TiVo Package was for one (1), two (2), or three (3) years. After the end of your monthly or prepaid commitment period, you may also have the option to sign up for a lower monthly TiVo Service Only Payment Plan price for a longer commitment term or purchase a prepaid TiVo Service Only Payment Plan. This provision applies equally to any Promotional Pricing which maybe available, unless otherwise specifically stated by TiVo.


Source: http://www.tivo.com/5.11.6.asp

Terms after MSD ends:

Could not find.


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## supasta

I have been looking for some time now to find information on what these pricing changes do to current customers with MSD. I would like to know. I do not mind committing to 3 years, but boy is that a long time when they are changing things every few months!


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## Einselen

Few things on this. I am guessing those with MSD already activated going month to month with no contract will continue at $6.95/month. What about the case in my parents who signed up with a 1 yr committment? At the end of that 1 yr will they now have to do another committment or be forced up to $13.95 month (or whatever the rate is for 1 yr)?


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## MikeMar

So if i cancel service to a current MSD box, and a month later want to reactivate it, i have to sign a 3 year deal on that box to get 6.95?


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## michael new

so what your all suggestiong is , If I purchase a Tivo say at Best Buy and mail in the rebate it will cost more than 6.95 for my MSD.

this is another thing I found, its all so confusing!

"Prepaid and monthly TiVo Package Payment Plans, including any Promotional Pricing, are not eligible for the Multi-Service Discount. See full terms of the Multi-Service Discount for details"

So it sounds as though I purchase a Tivo through the Tivo.com I cant use the MSD.

But at any other retailer the only exeption is 1,2,3 year contract 3 years being 6.95 a month MSD.

Whats so bad about that?


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## crowfan

If you click the Details link on the pricing page (for the 1, 2, or 3 year commitments), it says this:


> Includes TiVo Service and a TiVo® Series2 DVR


For the prepaid plans it says:


> Includes 1, 2, or 3 year(s) TiVo® service prepaid and a TiVo® Series2 DVR


so it looks to me like these prices all include the box.


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## MikeMar

Do the MSD deals include the box?? Cause if I'm forced to pay for 3 years of service, i'll take a free box for it


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## Einselen

michael new said:


> so what your all suggestiong is , If I purchase a Tivo say at Best Buy and mail in the rebate it will cost more than 6.95 for my MSD.
> 
> this is another thing I found, its all so confusing!
> 
> "Prepaid and monthly TiVo Package Payment Plans, including any Promotional Pricing, are not eligible for the Multi-Service Discount. See full terms of the Multi-Service Discount for details"
> 
> So it sounds as though I purchase a Tivo through the Tivo.com I cant use the MSD.
> 
> But at any other retailer the only exeption is 1,2,3 year contract 3 years being 6.95 a month MSD.
> 
> Whats so bad about that?


What Tivo has done is made it so if you are buying Tivo for the first time it is almost better (there are deals like the one at the TCStore which make it cheaper to buy retail) to buy from them and not have to worry about the rebate.

If you arleady own a Tivo and want MSD you will still have to buy retail as previously. Now though to get the $6.95 which many MSD users are use to you have to commit for 3 years and once those 3 years are up it is unclear of what happens (most likly have to recommit). Especially with HD prices coming down I don't think many will want to commit a box to three years. 3 years in terms of technology a lot can happen.


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## 1283

crowfan said:


> If you click the Details link on the pricing page (for the 1, 2, or 3 year commitments), it says this: For the prepaid plans it says:so it looks to me like these prices all include the box.


Because that box is free with the package plans.


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## Einselen

crowfan said:


> If you click the Details link on the pricing page (for the 1, 2, or 3 year commitments), it says this: For the prepaid plans it says:so it looks to me like these prices all include the box.


Looking at the new terms one includes the box (package plan) the other does not (Service only plan).

http://www.tivo.com/5.11.6.asp

Again this is done so Tivo.com has the edge on new customers (with few instances of retail being cheaper A/R) as no need to hassle with rebate and same price.

MSD you have to buy retail, nothing has changed there, just the pricing and lengths of contracts. I am just glad I bought my Tivo when I did and hopefully in 3 yrs after prepay has worn off I will a) be able to afford the service or b) the price has changed lower otherwise I may have to cancel Tivo for awhile. 3 years though is a long way away.


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## crowfan

If they really are increasing their prices for monthly service, or forcing us to commit for longer periods of time to get the prices we are used to, then for the first time, I am going to have to start considering other solutions.  I really really don't want to.


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## 1283

Einselen said:


> Especially with HD prices coming down I don't think many will want to commit a box to three years. 3 years in terms of technology a lot can happen.


Commitment is for service, not box. You can change the box at anytime, except that the service transfers are not eligible for the rebate.


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## paladin732

Something seems wrong here, when the original price-change happened with the package plans, were members of this forum not notified early via Pony(or one of the other tivo dudes)? When the rewards site was updated, were we not notified ahead of time? I doubt that they would increase these prices without telling us


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## michael new

After the end of your monthly or prepaid commitment period, as applicable, your TiVo Package Payment Plan will continue on a monthly basis at the then-applicable rate for a one (1), two (2), or three (3) year monthly TiVo Package based on whether your TiVo Package was for one (1), two (2), or three (3) years. After the end of your monthly or prepaid commitment period, you may also have the option to sign up for a lower monthly TiVo Service Only Payment Plan price for a longer commitment term or purchase a prepaid TiVo Service Only Payment Plan. This provision applies equally to any Promotional Pricing which maybe available, unless otherwise specifically stated by TiVo. 

Prepaid and monthly TiVo Package Payment Plans, including any Promotional Pricing, are not eligible for the Multi-Service Discount. See full terms of the Multi-Service Discount for details. 

so it sounds to me like if you buy under a package plan you cant use MSD ever.


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## 1283

michael new said:


> so it sounds to me like if you buy under a package plan you cant use MSD ever.


After the package commitment is over, sign up for MSD with new commitment.


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## michael new

borderline said:


> There are new multi-service discount rates too:
> 
> $13.95/mo 1 year commitment
> $8.95/mo 2 year commitment
> $6.95/mo 3 year commitment


Id like to know where this info is?


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## michael new

c3 said:


> After the package commitment is over, sign up for MSD with new commitment.


if you read the post above it says this is not possible.

After the end of your monthly or prepaid commitment period, as applicable, your TiVo Package Payment Plan will continue on a monthly basis at the then-applicable rate for a one (1), two (2), or three (3) year monthly TiVo Package based on whether your TiVo Package was for one (1), two (2), or three (3) years.


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## MikeMar

michael new said:


> Id like to know where this info is?


http://www.tivo.com/5.11.4.asp


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## michael new

Multi-Service Discount Service Terms 

1. Discounted Monthly TiVo Service Fee. The MULTI-SERVICE DISCOUNT reduces the Monthly TiVo service or TiVo Plus service subscription fee by $6 per month to $6.95 per month for (3) years; $8.95 per month for (2) years; or $13.95 per month for (1) year while in compliance with all applicable Initial Qualification and General Eligibility requirements. Only monthly service-only TiVo service or TiVo Plus service subscriptions are eligible to receive the MULTI-SERVICE DISCOUNT. TiVo Package, Annual, Prepaid, and Product Lifetime Subscriptions are not eligible to receive the MULTI-SERVICE DISCOUNT. However, in accordance with the Initial Qualification and General Eligibility requirements set forth above, TiVo Package, Annual, Prepaid, and Product Lifetime Subscriptions may serve as the Qualifying Subscription.

so theyve set in motion a way to trackj the box to tell if its a package box or not and it is not elligable for MSD


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## Pab Sungenis

I just went there to activate my new Series 3, and for a service only package (no free or discounted DVR included), the rate is $13.95/mo. with one year commitment, down to $6.95/mo. for a three year commitment.

This is my first TiVo with actual TiVo (as opposed to DirecTV) service since I had a SAT-T60 and my account was sold to DirecTV, so I'm sure that, while the service fee has increased, it's only by $1.00 a month, not $7.00 unless you're getting a DVR with the package.


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## 1283

michael new said:


> if you read the post above it says this is not possible.
> 
> After the end of your monthly or prepaid commitment period, as applicable, your TiVo Package Payment Plan will continue on a monthly basis at the then-applicable rate for a one (1), two (2), or three (3) year monthly TiVo Package based on whether your TiVo Package was for one (1), two (2), or three (3) years.


It is definitely possible. Cancel the package plan and sign up for MSD.


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## MediaLivingRoom

"$180 TiVo® Series 2 Dual Tuner Rebate (valid only on TiVo Service Numbers (TSN) starting with 264,275, 565, 590, 595, 649)"

What are the dual tuner brands and models with TSN of "264, 275, 565, 590, 595, 649"?


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## BlackBetty

This is way too confusing. Too many options and stipulations. TiVo wtf are you doing? It should be very simple for a consumer to purchase a TiVo. Don't confuse matters and create barriers for the buyer!!!!


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## MikeMar

MediaLivingRoom said:


> "$180 TiVo® Series 2 Dual Tuner Rebate (valid only on TiVo Service Numbers (TSN) starting with 264,275, 565, 590, 595, 649)"
> 
> What are the dual tuner brands and models with TSN of "264, 275, 565, 590, 595, 649"?


I would like to make sure as well, I am going to order the dual tuner today sometime, 80 hour


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## michael new

so i guess im confused is it cheaper/easier for a person to order from Tivo and have a MSD or not. Im looking for a dual tuner 80 hr soon and now I dont know what to do?


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## BlackBetty

MikeMar said:


> I would like to make sure as well, I am going to order the dual tuner today sometime, 80 hour


There is only one dual tuner TiVo model and that is the *649*


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## MikeMar

BlackBetty said:


> There is only one dual tuner TiVo model and that is the *649*


thank you


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## Einselen

c3 said:


> Commitment is for service, not box. You can change the box at anytime, except that the service transfers are not eligible for the rebate.


I misspoke/misrepresented what I was trying to say. First I thought it you sign up prepay or committment then the service is for that box only and can not be transfered to another box. So esentially I could buy say a S2 DT now and do prepay for 3 years (or say I pay monthly for 3 years) and then 2 years buy a S3 and I would still be paying off the DT for another year. Was I wrong in thinking that?


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## Einselen

Pab Sungenis said:


> I just went there to activate my new Series 3, and for a service only package (no free or discounted DVR included), the rate is $13.95/mo. with one year commitment, down to $6.95/mo. for a three year commitment.
> 
> This is my first TiVo with actual TiVo (as opposed to DirecTV) service since I had a SAT-T60 and my account was sold to DirecTV, so I'm sure that, while the service fee has increased, it's only by $1.00 a month, not $7.00 unless you're getting a DVR with the package.


I am confused. Did you or did you not have a previous Tivo on the aco**** which you activated the S3?


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## 1283

Einselen said:


> I misspoke/misrepresented what I was trying to say. First I thought it you sign up prepay or committment then the service is for that box only and can not be transfered to another box. So esentially I could buy say a S2 DT now and do prepay for 3 years (or say I pay monthly for 3 years) and then 2 years buy a S3 and I would still be paying off the DT for another year. Was I wrong in thinking that?


I'm not sure what you're asking, but hopefully this is a better explanation. If you buy a S2DT now and prepay 3 years (regular or MSD), you can buy S3 two years later and change the subscription from S2DT to S3. The S2DT will no longer have any service, and the S3 will have the remaining 1 year of service.

Any non-lifetime service plan (package or service-only) can have the hardware changed at anytime.


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## MikeMar

c3 said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking, but hopefully this is a better explanation. If you buy a S2DT now and prepay 3 years (regular or MSD), you can buy S3 two years later and change the subscription from S2DT to S3. The S2DT will no longer have any service, and the S3 will have the remaining 1 year of service.
> 
> Any non-lifetime service can have the hardware changed at anytime.


really? so essentially the 3 year contract is for the account, and you can use it for whatever tivo?


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## 1283

MikeMar said:


> really? so essentially the 3 year contract is for the account, and you can use it for whatever tivo?


yes


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## Einselen

c3 said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking, but hopefully this is a better explanation. If you buy a S2DT now and prepay 3 years (regular or MSD), you can buy S3 two years later and change the subscription from S2DT to S3. The S2DT will no longer have any service, and the S3 will have the remaining 1 year of service.
> 
> Any non-lifetime service plan (package or service-only) can have the hardware changed at anytime.


I always thought it was tied to the box. Good to know, thanks!

However, those looking to switch don't forget with the rebates for the S2 (Dual or Single) currently are new activation.


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## MediaLivingRoom

BlackBetty said:


> There is only one dual tuner TiVo model and that is the *649*


Then the rebate will confuse people by not applying for a rebate for Humax and others alike because the statement make the user think that they do not have a dual tuner and may not apply for it.

The user may buy it from BB or CC and the sales person may look at the rebate and say it is only for Dual Tuners at "$180 TiVo® Series 2 Dual Tuner Rebate" and you can apply for the "$220 TiVo® Series 2 Rebate".... but the customers sends it in and gets denied.... TiVo keeps the cash for customers who confused.


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## robbins

Whew, makes me glad I left Tivo a few months ago. I now pay like $6 per month and have a better, faster box. Tivo is pricing itself out of business.


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## Ruth

Wait, I am confused. I have an S2 on lifetime, and a DT on MSD for $6.95/mo. To get MSD pricing I agreed to a 1-yr service commitment, and they told me at the end of the 1 year I would continue to be charged at $6.95. Is that not true? What price will I be paying for the DT when my one year expires?


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## bpurcell

Ruth said:


> Wait, I am confused. I have an S2 on lifetime, and a DT on MSD for $6.95/mo. To get MSD pricing I agreed to a 1-yr service commitment, and they told me at the end of the 1 year I would continue to be charged at $6.95. Is that not true? What price will I be paying for the DT when my one year expires?


That was the "old" pricing plan. My opinion is that all those who currently pay 6.95 for MSD will continue that way until they cancel their account. I'm assuming the new pricing plan is for new contracts and not retroactive. But Tivo could decide to prove me wrong.


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## ChuckyBox

BlackBetty said:


> This is way too confusing. Too many options and stipulations. TiVo wtf are you doing? It should be very simple for a consumer to purchase a TiVo. Don't confuse matters and create barriers for the buyer!!!!


Actually, there are fewer options now, and if someone weren't aware of the previous pricing structure I think it would seem a lot clearer.

This pricing is aimed at new subs, who can look at a simple table and decide with service plan they want to get, regardless of where they got their box. The boxes are all (effectively) priced the same now, whether you buy at retail or online: 80-hour = free, 80-hour DT = $69, 180-hour DT = $169.


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## ChuckyBox

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Then the rebate will confuse people by not applying for a rebate for Humax and others alike because the statement make the user think that they do not have a dual tuner and may not apply for it.


I agree the wording is misleading, though I hope it is just an oversight that they'll correct.


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## HeatherA

I have to say I'm so disappointed in this. I do not want a 3 year committment to get the 6.95 MSD price. I will most likely stay with TiVo for that long, I've already had at least one box subscribed at any given time for over 6 years. However, I want to be free to leave at will. I was going to add another S2 TiVo to the house for the kids in the basement as a Christmas gift. I will not be doing so now. We will have to live with the 2 S2 boxes we have and the kids will continue to use their un-subbed Series 1 box down there until we figure something else out. I think TiVo is pricing themselves out of the market with the subscription plans and terms. :-(


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## MikeMar

HeatherA said:


> I have to say I'm so disappointed in this. I do not want a 3 year committment to get the 6.95 MSD price. I will most likely stay with TiVo for that long, I've already had at least one box subscribed at any given time for over 6 years. However, I want to be free to leave at will. I was going to add another S2 TiVo to the house for the kids in the basement as a Christmas gift. I will not be doing so now. We will have to live with the 2 S2 boxes we have and the kids will continue to use their un-subbed Series 1 box down there until we figure something else out. I think *TiVo is pricing themselves out of the market with the subscription plans and terms*. :-(


I don't think they are pricing themselves out of new subscribers, as it's basically the same to get a free box and sign up for 1-3 years

they *ARE* pricing/committing themselves out of repeat business (in that I mean people getting multiple units)

I have 3 tivo's and was going to get 2 more, not now!!!


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## bmgoodman

When you keep b*tch-slapping your core of fervent supporters, you lose a very influential group. This is like MS' original plan to limit Vista transfers to one time only. Look at how the huge outcry changed their plan. I hope Tivo's management can right this ship.


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## 1283

Look at the previous MSD pricing. $6.95/month with 1-year commitment. You can get a free S2 after rebate (or low cost S2DT). TiVo gets $83.40 for both the hardware and 1-year of service. After 1 year, you can cancel the service and repeat the 1-year cycle. TiVo cannot stay in business like that.


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## bpurcell

c3 said:


> Look at the previous MSD pricing. $6.95/month with 1-year commitment. You can get a free S2 after rebate (or low cost S2DT). TiVo gets $83.40 for both the hardware and 1-year of service. After 1 year, you can cancel the service and repeat the 1-year cycle. TiVo cannot stay in business like that.


I somewhat agree. It appears this is an attempt to get people to agree to longer commitments. If you plan to do 3-yr contracts, nothing has really changed in the pricing plan.

My concern is that newbie buyers who know nothing about Tivo's superior software will not be willing to commit for three years. They'll just go to the Cable co., since that's at least familiar territory for them.

I hope Tivo is able to make good software-only contracts with the cable co., or they may not be able to survive the cable price wars. This new pricing plan tells me they're not even going to fight the pricing war.


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## davezatz

bpurcell said:


> I hope Tivo is able to make good software-only contracts with the cable co., or they may not be able to survive the cable price wars. This new pricing plan tells me they're not even going to fight the pricing war.


That's what I'm thinking... make as much as you can now and let the stand-alone business die in favor of licensing software to others. Maybe they figure they'll be adding Echostar to Cox, Comcast, and DirecTV.

I think this effectively will kill or seriously reduce the secondary market like ebay. Get a used TiVo and be stuck with a long term commitment or $20/mo when a cable co will have no hardware costs and 50% the monthly fee?

I have a Humax burner that was 1 year pre-paid and is up next month. Guess I'll automatically roll into $12.95/mo for MSD rather than $6.95 because my timing is poor. That's pretty lame. As a blogger I'll pay it (no way I'm going signing a long-term contract though - SD is on the way out) as I did with the S3 premium, but I don't feel good about it and I don't think it helps push the TiVo brand.


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## willink

I'm confused. I just went to tivo.com, and they still have the standard msd link active. Does that mean if I sign up for it today I am OK?

http://www.tivo.com/4.0.msd.asp


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## 1283

willink said:


> I'm confused. I just went to tivo.com, and they still have the standard msd link active. Does that mean if I sign up for it today I am OK?
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/4.0.msd.asp


Try to sign up -- you won't get it.


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## HeatherA

MikeMar said:


> I don't think they are pricing themselves out of new subscribers, as it's basically the same to get a free box and sign up for 1-3 years
> 
> they *ARE* pricing/committing themselves out of repeat business (in that I mean people getting multiple units)
> 
> I have 3 tivo's and was going to get 2 more, not now!!!


Yes, I think in my displeasure that was what I was trying to say and not doing a very good job of it. 

Thanks for being more articulate than I was!


----------



## MikeMar

HeatherA said:


> Yes, I think in my displeasure that was what I was trying to say and not doing a very good job of it.
> 
> Thanks for being more articulate than I was!


they should make it, that if you get the box FROM tivo you have to sign up for x years, but make it so you can get a dual tuner for like $300 with $150 rebate and no contract or something.


----------



## Einselen

willink said:


> I'm confused. I just went to tivo.com, and they still have the standard msd link active. Does that mean if I sign up for it today I am OK?
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/4.0.msd.asp


No because they have a link the to the terms and conditions from that page which reflect the new MSD. The only leg you have to stand on is if you argue that the FAQ is misleading http://www.tivo.com/4.0.msd.faq.asp. Again though there are multiple links to the terms and conditions which states how you can get the MSD for only $6.95/month, but I think maybe in this transition time Tivo may honor it. Only one way to find out though is to call and complain.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

bpurcell said:


> I somewhat agree. It appears this is an attempt to get people to agree to longer commitments. If you plan to do 3-yr contracts, nothing has really changed in the pricing plan.
> 
> My concern is that newbie buyers who know nothing about Tivo's superior software will not be willing to commit for three years. They'll just go to the Cable co., since that's at least familiar territory for them.
> 
> I hope Tivo is able to make good software-only contracts with the cable co., or they may not be able to survive the cable price wars. This new pricing plan tells me they're not even going to fight the pricing war.


It's looking more like a cell phone company.


----------



## doraemon

Talk about very confusing. I opted to go with the 3 year commitment for monthly service because that was the cheapest choice. I already have two Tivo boxes, an old Toshiba RS-TX20 and a S2, so I assumed the S3 would qualify for MSD.

The breakdown was:

RS-TX20 = $12.95/mo
S2 = $6.95/mo
S3 = $8.31/mo (if I went with the 3-year prepay)

Or:

RS-TX20 = $6.95/mo
S2 = $6.95/mo
S3 = $12.95/mo (if I went with the monthly but 3-year commitment)

The S3 had to be the new "primary" box on my account. If I'd only activated the S3 yesterday I could have qualified for the old pricing plan, which would come out to the same per month cost but w/o the commitment.


----------



## cwerdna

Yow, this makes TiVo an even tougher sell.  

I'm glad I'm paying $6/mo for DirecTivo and got lifetime on all my standalone boxes (all loaned out right now).

If I'd only scooped up some lifetime gift cards before they were all yanked... :/


----------



## SullyND

Wow. Guess I'm stuck with one TiVo and it won't be replaced with a TiVo when I get a new DVR. Sad.


----------



## rainwater

I can understand the new pricing options, but the MSD changes are ridiculously complicated to try to sell someone on. I'm definitely not happy with the increased MSD prices. It seems TiVo is now encouraging only single TiVo owners now.


----------



## ChuckyBox

rainwater said:


> I can understand the new pricing options, but the MSD changes are ridiculously complicated to try to sell someone on. I'm definitely not happy with the increased MSD prices. It seems TiVo is now encouraging only single TiVo owners now.


It depends on your perspective. People who are paying $19.95 or $14.95 are going to see the MSD as a savings, no matter what plan they pick. But for the money conscious, you can prepay for three years of service for $299 ($8.31/mo), and get one or more MSD units for $6.95/mo, which is pretty good, even by the old pricing structure. And both of the boxes are free. Or you could pay $138+tax for a pair of 80-hour DT boxes.


----------



## calitivo

:down: 

Unless subscriber retention rates are way down recently, this is a bizarre business move. They are looking to lock customers into multi-year deals or pay a lot more than previous rates. Why not just slightly raise the cost of Service without these commitments. MSD has ALWAYS been underpriced. $15/$10 has always seemed likely to me. Or who could complain if they went $14/$8, a buck increase.

My plan to give one of my ST to a relative who already has one Tivo and replacing it with a DT is now out the window because neither of us would be eligible for $7 MSD unless we subscribe 3 years, which I won't do because I'll eventually want another S3 for my second unit.

And like somebody mentioned previously, it makes the Cable DVR look so much more financially attractive.


----------



## samo

MediaLivingRoom said:


> It's looking more like a cell phone company.


Exactly the case. Free hardware in exchange for long commitment. This model is the only thing that stops people from switching to competition. Satellite and cable providers adapted this model also. It seem to work better than, for example, Cricket model - pay for hardware and get cheap service. The only problem I see for TiVo in adapting this model is an uncertainty factor. With cell phones you know what you going to get. With satellite you know what you gettting (and satellite companies let you out of the contract if you return equipment). With TiVo, unless you are TiVo user already, you don't know why you should pay twice as much.


----------



## michael new

so does this still pertain to retail store purchases?


----------



## 1283

calitivo said:


> neither of us would be eligible for $7 MSD unless we subscribe 3 years, which I won't do because I'll eventually want another S3 for my second unit.


Other than potential loss of S3 rebate in the future, there's nothing that stops you from buying a S3 and transfer your 3-year commitment to the S3.

People, commitment is for the service, *NOT* the box.


----------



## tmesser

I guess this means I have to put TiVo "on notice." I intend to go HD before the end of the year, and that Comcast DVR is starting to look like a better option...


----------



## bpurcell

michael new said:


> so does this still pertain to retail store purchases?


Yes, this is across the board.


----------



## matt11

This is certainly a disappointment. I was thinking about adding a second unit but I don't like the idea of a 3 year service contract to get the $6.95 a month rate. I'm glad I read this thread. When I first saw the new rebates, I almost bought a second unit. I guess I'll have to wait a little longer to see if I really think I NEED that second unit.


----------



## mick66

Out of curiosity, I started the process of activating an old 140060 on a new account and this is what I got for prices.










and this is if I activate service with MSD on my existing account.










This new plan pretty much sucks.
I wonder if existing accounts are going to be affected and if not at this time, when?


----------



## BlackBetty

So say I have 2 tivo boxes and I buy a third. In order to get the $6.95 a month price I have to commit to 3 years??? What happens if I deactivate the TiVo after year one and sell it on ebay or to a friend? Whats the penalty? 

This is horrible.


----------



## bmgoodman

mick66 said:


> Out of curiosity, I started the process of activating an old 140060 on a new account and this is what I got for prices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this is if I activate service with MSD on my existing account.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This new plan pretty much sucks.
> I wonder if existing accounts are going to be affected and if not at this time, when?


So the MSD 3 year plan costs MORE to pre-pay than to pay monthly? Who set these rates? Has Tivo heard of the time value of money?


----------



## arcadefreaque

mick66 said:


>


So it costs $299 for 2 years of prepaid service, or $299 for 3 years of prepaid service. hmmm... I wonder... which one should I choose...


----------



## jlb

For me, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. As it is, I am considering replacing my 2 STDTs with 1 DTS2. Then all the MSD stuff is a non-issue..........I think....


----------



## sbourgeo

As a 6+ year TiVo customer, this is disappointing news. It looks like my next DVR will not be a TiVo.


----------



## bidger

When I got my first TiVo 6 years ago I found $9.95/mo. steep for the DVR charge and that's why I went Lifetime for $199. $20/mo. is outrageous and even more so coupled with an annual commitment, to say nothing of the MSD pricing scheme! TiVo's never really been behind MSD. They pretty much had to be shamed into it. D* recognized that people would add additional DVRs and priced them accordingly, one DVR charge that covers all units on the account and a mirroring fee for the additional DVR(s).

I'm sure the staunch TiVotees will bring up TiVo-To-Go, HMO, KidZone, etc., but some of us couldn't care less about that stuff, we just want to record TV shows. I guess those days are gone, the Golden Age of DVR. Now all kinds of external stuff has to be added to justify the exorbitant price tag. Oh well.


----------



## rainwater

One problem with the service pricing is if you sign up for 3 years at $12.95/month, once those 3 years are up, you should be able to continue at that price without having to sign up for 3 more years. The new system discourages users from continuing with the service. While new users may have no problem signing up for 2/3 years, current users are being given the shaft.


----------



## dbtom

Tivo must be phasing out their hardware business and focusing only on the cable box software layer. There is no way they will be able to add subscribers at these crazy prices.

Tivo will probably use this for marketing with the cable companies. CableCos can say they are offering Tivo services for $10 - 20 in addition to their regular monthly fees. That's an easier sell than buying a Tivo box and being locked into a service for a long time.


----------



## ChuckyBox

jlb said:


> For me, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. As it is, I am considering replacing my 2 STDTs with 1 DTS2. Then all the MSD stuff is a non-issue..........I think....


For you, if you're willing to pay $299 up front, you could actually substantially lower your monthly cost from $12.95 + $6.95 to $8.31. Even if you go monthly, with a 3-year commit, you get down to $12.95. And you'll also have the convenience of having all your shows and scheduling on one box. One $69 box, which doesn't suck.

For other people, especially those who want TiVos in multiple rooms, the math isn't so favorable.

What's been puzzling me is the huge gap between the 1-year and 2-year commit. I think the goal is to push people first to consider the 2-year, then they look at the 2-year prepay option and see even more savings, then they see they can get 3-years for the same money, so they cough up the cash, which TiVo wants for acquiring new subscribers.


----------



## SnakeEyes

I had four people lined up to buy an additional TiVo for Christmas after selling them on the $6.95 MSD. I told them about the change and now none of them are buying a new TiVo. When I get my new S2 I will be deactivating my S1. I refuse to commit to 3 years for anything.


----------



## ufo4sale

Apparently this is what their extensive market research has told them to do.  :down:


----------



## ChuckyBox

dbtom said:


> Tivo will probably use this for marketing with the cable companies. CableCos can say they are offering Tivo services for $10 - 20 in addition to their regular monthly fees. That's an easier sell than buying a Tivo box and being locked into a service for a long time.


The standalone business is important to TiVo, the CEO has said as much, and much of their work over the past year or so has been to get that buiness on track. TiVo can't compete with integrated cable boxes in the digital market, that much is known. They have defined the analog cable market, where cable DVRs are generally not available, as an area for growth. In that light, the price increase is a reflection of their estimation of the elasticity of demand vs. total return, without having to consider significant competition.

If they are finding traction in that market (and possibly others), possibly aided by their marketing of KidZone to church and family groups, then the move may well pay off for them by bringing in significant numbers of new subscribers at a higher monthly rate. If not, then total subscriptions will suffer.

In any event, it is unlikely that they rolled out a price increase going into their biggest sales period without having considered these factors. But I doubt their MSO software/service business played much of a part in the calculation.


----------



## Budget_HT

It looks to me like their strategy is encouragement to have more dual-tuner boxes instead of pairs of single-tuner boxes, since the dual-tuner box subscription price is the nearly the same as for a single-tuner unit. For TiVo, there is only one box calling in instead of two, which reduces costs for them. Part of their savings are reflected in the favorable subscription prices for the dual-tuner units.


----------



## davezatz

ChuckyBox said:


> For other people, especially those who want TiVos in multiple rooms, the math isn't so favorable.


I have an S2 I prepaid for 1 year that comes out of that agreement in December. Instead of $6.95/mo MSD it'll roll into $12.95/mo for the single tuner standard def box. TiVo software is superior, but it's hard to justify when Comcast will give me a dual tuner HD DVR for the bedroom for just $10/mo. In a few months I'll have an option to rent a Comcast Motorola DVR running TiVo - that's a no brainer. I think TiVo is attempting to squeeze as much out of the stand-alone market as they can from existing/repeat customers (and not worry too much about gaining new ones) and focusing on licensing software and patents to the cable and satellite guys.


----------



## ChuckyBox

SnakeEyes said:


> I refuse to commit to 3 years for anything.


Doesn't that make it hard to get an education, have a career, or a house, or a spouse, or children, or even a dog?


----------



## davezatz

ChuckyBox said:


> Doesn't that make it hard to get an education, have a career, or a house, or a spouse, or children, or even a dog?


I could do all of that _twice _in three years.


----------



## dbtom

ChuckyBox said:


> The standalone business is important to TiVo, the CEO has said as much, and much of their work over the past year or so has been to get that buiness on track. TiVo can't compete with integrated cable boxes in the digital market, that much is known. They have defined the analog cable market, where cable DVRs are generally not available, as an area for growth. In that light, the price increase is a reflection of their estimation of the elasticity of demand vs. total return, without having to consider significant competition...


It may make sense to try to get more out of the analog market. But part of Tivo's pitch has been that you will save money but not upgrading to digital... Keep pushing the envelope on pricing and that equation starts to change. I would think the smarter way to go would be to push volume in analog cable and not increase price.

My opinion of focusing on analog cable is skewed because I haven't had the ability to personally subscribe to analog for a long time (in Boston or New York) and I think it's dying a not so slow death.

They are kidding themselves if they think that churches are going to be big channel for KidsZone. They people who complain about what is on tv are not going to try to figure out how to set up and program a Tivo.


----------



## baw

It will be interesting to see what current subscribers will see. My contract is up next month.


----------



## SnakeEyes

ChuckyBox said:


> Doesn't that make it hard to get an education, have a career, or a house, or a spouse, or children, or even a dog?


  OK let me rephrase. I refuse to commit to three years for anything that is not a necessity.


----------



## filburt1

sbourgeo said:


> As a 6+ year TiVo customer, this is disappointing news. It looks like my next DVR will not be a TiVo.


Agreed. I am strongly considering canceling the service on a second TiVo in the house, and when the one-year commitment for my main TiVo is up, cancel that too. For the love of God, don't alienate your _existing_ customers, TiVo. Stop using the business model of a cell phone company.

My next DVR will be one I build myself. It'll be cheaper after several months or a year, will support HD in all likelyhood, but will have a worse UI and scheduler. That's a small price to pay to get out of this crap.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> I think TiVo is attempting to squeeze as much out of the stand-alone market as they can from existing/repeat customers (and not worry too much about gaining new ones) and focusing on licensing software and patents to the cable and satellite guys.


I had refrained from replying in this thread till now hoping that TiVo would put some explanation to this chnage, even in the form of a press release. I think it very bad form to make such changes and offer not even a basic explanation of how the changes work.

That being said I would speculate like Dave has that they can not publicly give the reason since it applies directly to business strategy. I would agree with Dave that it seems the new pricing has siad they do not expect to grow Stand Alone subscribers much so the "3rd party" Stand Alones will now become a premium product even for the Series 2.

This says to me that the Series 3 must be meeting their expectations, sales wise. That the negotiations and delivery timetable for the MSO deals is going well and they still expect a good result in the EchoStar infringement trial.
Hopefully they expect a good Fall update Release for the Stand Alone software as well.

for me personally - I have a a DT that will roll off a 1 year for 155.40 total deal and I was expecting that would go to 6.95 with just a 1 year committment. Seems now I have to rethink that and look at my other two MSD units since they both can drop back to TiVo Basic if need be.

If MRV and TTG were running in some form on the S3 I would hold out higher hope for this premium pricing direction. Have the MSOs won the 3rd party battle?


----------



## ah30k

This will force many people's hands into finally transferring an old grandfathered unit. I have an old S1 with grandfather that I've been hanging onto because one of my newer S2-DTs was only costing me $6.95. 

What sucks is that GF unit is being used by my mother. I was happy to pay the $6.95/mo myself so my mom could use the old S1. If they up my monthly rate on my MSD unit I'll have to decide whether to pull the plug on my mom or pay the extra monthly MSD fee myself. 

"Sorry Mom, TiVo doubled my MSD rate so I need to yank your TiVo." Oh yeh that'll make me feel real good.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

filburt1 said:


> Agreed. I am strongly considering canceling the service on a second TiVo in the house, and when the one-year commitment for my main TiVo is up, cancel that too. For the love of God, don't alienate your _existing_ customers, TiVo. Stop using the business model of a cell phone company.
> 
> My next DVR will be one I build myself. It'll be cheaper after several months or a year, will support HD in all likelyhood, but will have a worse UI and scheduler. That's a small price to pay to get out of this crap.


the question though is - do you pay the 6.95 MSD on the second TiVo now? If so don't cancel it or you will be stuck if you want to go back. Time will tell what the deal is when your first TiVo term expires.

Till then do some research on, build that PC-DVR. in all likelihood all you will get only OTA HD in usch a third party solution. To get cable company HD channels you will need cable card and most likely only Windows Vista prebuilt PCs will get certified for cable card*. Of course there will be no way to get Sat. HD without using their own DVR. OTA HD is not in itself a bad thing, you just need to understand the options you will face and make sure they fit your needs

* I doubt Apple will care much about cable cards because they will be working to get into the download HD content business. Another choice available where you have to weigh your needs vs. what is offered.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

ah30k said:


> "Sorry Mom, TiVo doubled my MSD rate so I need to yank your TiVo." Oh yeh that'll make me feel real good.


 after all your Mother did for you


----------



## filburt1

ZeoTiVo said:


> the question though is - do you pay the 6.95 MSD on the second TiVo now? If so don't cancel it or you will be stuck if you want to go back. Time will tell what the deal is when your first TiVo term expires.
> 
> Till then do some research on, build that PC-DVR. in all likelihood all you will get only OTA HD in usch a third party solution. To get cable company HD channels you will need cable card and most likely only Windows Vista prebuilt PCs will get certified for cable card. Of course there will be no way to get Sat. HD without using their own DVR. OTA HD is not in itself a bad thing, you just need to understand the options you will face and make sure they fit your needs


I do pay $6.95 for it, but as I understand it so far, I'd need to lock in that price for _3 years_, which is ridiculous considering I'll probably go HD before then anyway.

I do realize the main problem with building my own DVR is a lack of CableCARD support, but that is always something I can add to the DVR in the future via something like a PCI Express card. With a TiVo, it's upgrade the entire unit or nothing.

I'll have cable either way, not satellite, so that's okay.

I'm pricing out a decent DVR right now via Newegg.


----------



## johnd7

Another reason, I think I am going to get an s3 and pay the $199 to transfer one of my lifetimes. I think maybe my boxes with lifetimes just became even more valuable for resale also.


----------



## Seattle

I just called and activated my 9th Tivo. They told me that I only had to commit to one year. (6.95 a month)


----------



## ZeoTiVo

filburt1 said:


> I do pay $6.95 for it, but as I understand it so far, I'd need to lock in that price for _3 years_, which is ridiculous considering I'll probably go HD before then anyway.


 if you already have a monthly plan and are apying on it, it will not change unless you chnage it. No need to agree to any new length of time. Just let it roll.


> I do realize the main problem with building my own DVR is a lack of CableCARD support, but that is always something I can add to the DVR in the future via something like a PCI Express card. With a TiVo, it's upgrade the entire unit or nothing.
> 
> I'll have cable either way, not satellite, so that's okay.
> 
> I'm pricing out a decent DVR right now via Newegg.


What I am saying is that Cable card is not something you add on. technically you can do what you say but that is not how *the certification* works. To get hardware certified by cable labs to use cable card - the whole piece of hardware including the recording and encryption mechanism must be certified by cable labs. They will most certainly not allow add on hardware for an open source package. If there is not cable labs certification then the cable companies can legally and rightfully refuse to install cable cards to it.


----------



## ah30k

Anyone know if my 1 yr commitment would be removed if TiVo raised the price on existing customers? I'd like the commitment would go both ways.


----------



## mearlus

I was just looking around on Tivo's website and I came across this page that still had the $6.95 pricing...
http://www.tivo.com/4.0.msd.asp

Also, I can't find what the early termination fee is if you signed up for 3 years but then cancled it at some point before the term was up. Does anyone know what that would be?


----------



## MikeMar

what's ridiculous about all of this is for the past year a lot of people have bought the bundle thinking at the end of the contract they can just drop down to $6.95/monthly, now they have to lock into 3 years after that.


----------



## bpurcell

Seattle said:


> I just called and activated my 9th Tivo. They told me that I only had to commit to one year. (6.95 a month)


You might want to double, triple, quadruple check that. That would be surprising that the CSR's wouldn't have the current pricing plan that shows on the website. Maybe they're rethinking things now that they've seen some of the reaction.


----------



## filburt1

filburt1 said:


> I do pay $6.95 for it, but as I understand it so far, I'd need to lock in that price for _3 years_, which is ridiculous considering I'll probably go HD before then anyway.
> 
> I do realize the main problem with building my own DVR is a lack of CableCARD support, but that is always something I can add to the DVR in the future via something like a PCI Express card. With a TiVo, it's upgrade the entire unit or nothing.
> 
> I'll have cable either way, not satellite, so that's okay.
> 
> I'm pricing out a decent DVR right now via Newegg.


Here's what I came up with. The total price is a bit under $1000, although it has HD support and HDMI output. I probably went overkill on the processor (Core 2 Duo) and memory (1 GB) given it's just a DVR, so the price can probably go down by $200 or $300, or $400 if I do some actual research.

DVD Burner, $30
Case with power supply, $180
250 GB SATA hard drive, $70
Video card with HDMI/HDCP out, $150
1 GB memory, $100
Motherboard, $100
Processor, $180
Only thing not from Newegg: HD TV tuner card, $130
When compared to a new Series2 DT of equal (or close) capacity, offsets the cost of service after a few years. Compared to a Series3, if I spec it properly, it would break even immediately.


----------



## filburt1

ZeoTiVo said:


> if you already have a monthly plan and are apying on it, it will not change unless you chnage it. No need to agree to any new length of time. Just let it roll.
> 
> What I am saying is that Cable card is not something you add on. technically you can do what you say but that is not how *the certification* works. To get hardware certified by cable labs to use cable card - the whole piece of hardware including the recording and encryption mechanism must be certified by cable labs. They will most certainly not allow add on hardware for an open source package. If there is not cable labs certification then the cable companies can legally and rightfully refuse to install cable cards to it.


So you're saying if I have one TiVo on MSD for $6.95 now and I don't do anything about it, it'll stay at $6.95 with no intervention on my part and no commitments?

What about the one-year commitment I have on my Series2 DT? When its contract expires in about nine months, will I still get $12.95 a month, or a ridiculous $19.95/month...for the exact same service?


----------



## Dan203

filburt1 said:


> So you're saying if I have one TiVo on MSD for $6.95 now and I don't do anything about it, it'll stay at $6.95 with no intervention on my part and no commitments?


The wording of the posted information seems to suggest that is the case. So I'd hold off on canceling anything until we're told otherwise.



filburt1 said:


> What about the one-year commitment I have on my Series2 DT? When its contract expires in about nine months, will I still get $12.95 a month, or a ridiculous $19.95/month...for the exact same service?


This one is a little more troublesome. Based on what's posted it sounds like you'll have to pay whatever the subscription rate is at the time. Which means that you'll have to choose either a long term comitiment or pay $19.95/mo.

Although on the plus side it sounds like TiVo has moved away from tying the service to a particular box. So you should be able to sign up for a 3 year comitiment then down the road transfer that comitiment to another box should the original one break or you want to upgrade to HD.

Dan


----------



## Einselen

Dan203 said:


> Although on the plus side it sounds like TiVo has moved away from tying the service to a particular box. So you should be able to sign up for a 3 year comitiment then down the road transfer that comitiment to another box should the original one break or you want to upgrade to HD.


Does the transfer of service have to be to a non-activated box? Say I pay for 1 yr for a box and then after that 1 yr is over can I transfer service from some other box I may have?


----------



## bpurcell

Dan203 said:


> Although on the plus side it sounds like TiVo has moved away from tying the service to a particular box. So you should be able to sign up for a 3 year comitiment then down the road transfer that comitiment to another box should the original one break or you want to upgrade to HD.


Although you still would not be eligible for any rebates. I would be ok with this if they allowed you to buy a tivo direct without also signing up for a new contract.


----------



## MikeMar

Einselen said:


> Does the transfer of service have to be to a non-activated box? Say I pay for 1 yr for a box and then after that 1 yr is over can I transfer service from some other box I may have?


I'm curious on that too.

Example question:

Box a - lifetime
Box b - current msd (so no contract)

I buy box C and sign up for 3 years msd at 6.95

next year i CANCEL box B, and then can I move box C over to B and continue to the contract?


----------



## davezatz

filburt1 said:


> Here's what I came up with. The total price is a bit under $1000, although it has HD support and HDMI output. I probably went overkill on the processor (Core 2 Duo) and memory (1 GB) given it's just a DVR, so the price can probably go down by $200 or $300, or $400 if I do some actual research.
> 
> DVD Burner, $30
> Case with power supply, $180
> 250 GB SATA hard drive, $70
> Video card with HDMI/HDCP out, $150
> 1 GB memory, $100
> Motherboard, $100
> Processor, $180
> Only thing not from Newegg: HD TV tuner card, $130
> When compared to a new Series2 DT of equal (or close) capacity, offsets the cost of service after a few years. Compared to a Series3, if I spec it properly, it would break even immediately.


You can do better than that. I just picked up an HP MCE machine last week at Best Buy with dual core 64bit processor for $550, 200GB drive, 1Gb memory, DVD burner. Dropped in an analog tuner (<$50) and an HD tuner (<$100) which I already owned. I don't have HDMI out, but not sure I need it.


----------



## bpurcell

Einselen said:


> Does the transfer of service have to be to a non-activated box? Say I pay for 1 yr for a box and then after that 1 yr is over can I transfer service from some other box I may have?


You could've done that with the old pricing plan as well. As long as the other tivo isn't still in a contract, you can transfer it to your contract. I believe this is covered in TivoStephen's FAQ.


----------



## Seattle

bpurcell said:


> You might want to double, triple, quadruple check that. That would be surprising that the CSR's wouldn't have the current pricing plan that shows on the website. Maybe they're rethinking things now that they've seen some of the reaction.


I just checked my account and it shows three years service plan. I called TiVo back and they told me that their computers are having trouble so she reset my plan to one year service at $6.95 a month. She told me to check later to make sure it was correct.


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## ah30k

Hey Dan, you're a moderator; can you tell if Pony or Stephen have logged in here today? the system must know who is on-line because the icons next to their posts change. Some forums even list the current viewers.


----------



## bpurcell

MikeMar said:


> Example question:
> 
> Box a - lifetime
> Box b - current msd (so no contract)
> 
> I buy box C and sign up for 3 years msd at 6.95
> 
> next year i CANCEL box B, and then can I move box C over to B and continue to the contract?


Here is the FAQ from TivoStephen from the old pricing plan, which I assume won't change with this pricing plan. I think it's safe to say that currently active boxes work the same way, since you can easily cancel non-contract boxes at anytime.



> Q. Can I transfer an existing monthly service-only contract or bundled service contract to new hardware? Suppose I get a box from retail or my cousin or eBay and want to switch service. Or I buy a shiny new Series3?
> 
> A. Yes. We call this a "Service Number Change" in Manage My Account and you can handle this transaction yourself at any time by going to http://www.tivo.com/manage/
> 
> This option is available today on monthly service-only contracts, and will still be available for all plans (except Product Lifetime) once the new pricing options go into effect.
> 
> Note that the old unit will no longer have service, which means it probably will have limited or no function.
> 
> Note also that the balance of your service commitment is unchanged, and transfers to the new hardware as well.
> 
> Suppose, for example, you purchase a bundled service package with an 80-hour Series2 DVR and a three year commitment at $16.95 per month. After 17 months you want to switch your service to a new Series3. You can do that. You'll purchase the new Series3 at retail, use Manage My Account to change your TiVo Service Number on your contract, and now your Series3 is activated at $16.95 per month, with 19 months left on your service commitment. Your Series2 unit will no longer have service.
> 
> Note that your Series3 unit would probably NOT be eligible for any rebate (if applicable), since our rebates typically require a new service activation.


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## SnakeEyes

Profiles show most recent activity


----------



## bpurcell

ah30k said:


> Hey Dan, you're a moderator; can you tell if Pony or Stephen have logged in here today? the system must know who is on-line because the icons next to their posts change. Some forums even list the current viewers.


Pony's activity: 
Last Activity: Today 09:24 AM 
Offline

I'm in CA, so this is Pacific Time, which currently is about 10:00am.


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## ZeoTiVo

filburt1 said:


> Here's what I came up with. The total price is a bit under $1000, although it has HD support and HDMI output.
> When compared to a new Series2 DT of equal (or close) capacity, offsets the cost of service after a few years. Compared to a Series3, if I spec it properly, it would break even immediately.


to be clear though - this is OTA HD while an S3 could get both OTA HD or HD from a cable provider. Not a knock on OTA HD or PC_DVRs just a clarification.

now since we are in a do it yourself world I can buy a Hard drive and drop it in the DT fairly easily. did it myself with a DT I got for 70$ and a 500 gig hard drive for 180$. so 1,000 - 250 = 750/12.95 = 62.5 or a little over 5 years which is more than a few 

perhaps we should keep this thread on the new pricing plan and not so much on speccing out PCs - which could be a great thread of its own - "Alternatives o the new pricing plan"


----------



## Dan203

Einselen said:


> Does the transfer of service have to be to a non-activated box? Say I pay for 1 yr for a box and then after that 1 yr is over can I transfer service from some other box I may have?


I don't believe the box has to be new for the transfer to happen. However I'm not sure what the policy is for transfering from a box which currently has active service. You'd probably have to call and have a CSR help you out with that.

Dan


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## Einselen

You know thinking about the new price plan for awhile it really isn't that bad. (Please don't kill me yet, lol).

In a way Tivo has not changed the option to pay $12.95 a month or $6.95 for MSD. It just requires a longer committment. Most people are afraid of committments though so it turns people off, however this one with Tivo is not that bad. As many have said before the service is tied to the account and not the box (with exception to lifetime, but lets forget about that for this discussion). Because of the service to the account you can upgrade the box at any time (forfeiting probably any rebates, but the S3 does not have one and will not for awhile).

The way I see it is like cell phone companies (I know we all hate them) but you usually have to sign up for 2 years to get a "free" or gratly reduced phone. If you lose that phone, cause it to break and are out of warrenty but still in that contract you have to pay about $220 for the new phone. Once out of contract though (or a few month before it ends) you can get an upgraded phone again for "Free" or greatly discounted again. The thing with Tivo is you will not be wanting to upgrade every two years. The only upgrades you may do currently is S1 or S2 ST to DT and DT to S2. Also looking at the S3 again it has no rebate or incentive for new activation (well besides lifetime transfer, but remember forgetting that for this discussion). Can you say that about the top of the line phones for the cell phone companies? No, all those have a different price for new contracts or contract renewals.

Paraphrasing for Tivo vs. Cell Phone is now you can buy a S2 Tivo and commit 3 years and get MSD for $6.95. In 4 months you can be like to hell with this I am upgrading to HD and buy the S3 (at the same price you could have purchased it 4 months ago) and transfer the 3 yrs to that box for another 2 years 8 months. The S2 becomes useless, but you paid almost nothing for it (depending on which one you get). Now lets do that with the cell phone example. Get free phone and 2 years commitment. 4 months want the new phone that supports the cool new super fast network and "upgrade". The new phone cost $100 more then if you bought it 4 months ago and you transfer the service and still locked in for 1 year 8 months.

I view Tivos as something more long term then cell phones. How many series has Tivo gone through since opening? Now compare that to cell phones. Yes the new pricing is a shock to all of us who are use to the way it was, however it isn't that bad, just bite the bullet and sign up for three years.


----------



## Shawn95GT

I wonder what the 'monthly' rate will be for our 'old' DVRs for those of us who did the VIP lifetime transfer to our S3s.

We paid $200 for this privlidge. I hope we at least get $6.95/mo w/o contract.


----------



## Einselen

Another thing to consider is that Tivo could have gotten rid of the whole prepay and committment thing and set it up so you would have to sing up for a yr (or maybe two) at a certain price. Worse things could have happened and I hate having to sign up for the committment, but when my 3 years is up on my prepay of this box and this price plan is still around I will commit probably to another three years to get the lowest price (maybe prepay again as I might not have MSD)


----------



## Dan203

Shawn95GT said:


> I wonder what the 'monthly' rate will be for our 'old' DVRs for those of us who did the VIP lifetime transfer to our S3s.
> 
> We paid $200 for this privlidge. I hope we at least get $6.95/mo w/o contract.


I'm pretty sure that those units will continue at whatever rate is available at the time when the year expires. Which means if you don't call and commit to 3 years then you will pay the $13.95/mo rate.

Dan


----------



## ewolfr

Einselen said:


> I view Tivos as something more long term then cell phones. How many series has Tivo gone through since opening? Now compare that to cell phones. Yes the new pricing is a shock to all of us who are use to the way it was, however it isn't that bad, just bite the bullet and sign up for three years.


Three years is too damn long to sign up for ANY kind of technology contract. Heck, I laughed when a friend of mine from Vancouver, BC told me that the cell phone companies and dsl providers were now encouraging three years terms for service. I honestly think that Tivo is trying to get out of the hardware business with this new pricing. They are losing ground to the cable companies and are desperate to get licensing deals with all of them instead. Why bother selling the dvr if you can just provide the software instead. I am holding out hope for Tivo, but I really want to know if they can turn a regular profit. I don't think this latest move is going to encourage that to happen.


----------



## bmgoodman

Einselen said:


> You know thinking about the new price plan for awhile it really isn't that bad. (Please don't kill me yet, lol).
> 
> I view Tivos as something more long term then cell phones. How many series has Tivo gone through since opening? Now compare that to cell phones. Yes the new pricing is a shock to all of us who are use to the way it was, however it isn't that bad, just bite the bullet and sign up for three years.


Even if I see your point, Tivo has quietly raised its rates and/or attempted to lock people into long term contracts, like cell phone companies. But you know what, EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY and perhaps the entire world already knows what a cell phone does. Here, people treat them as necessities now. But I don't know that people are willing to treat DVRs the same way.

Now, just when people are realizing there was a major price/policy shift at Tivo, Tivo Inc goes into silent running mode. No posts from Pony or anyone else that I can see. Where is the soothing explanation or the attempt to clarify many valid questions? They apparently posted these changes last Wednesday. This is the site of many of the biggest Tivo fans. They pick now to clam up?

To me, it looks like they are positioning themselves to get out of the box-building business and become the software provider. The new $20 per month rate with a year commitment will make getting the Tivo software from your cable company seem reasonable at $25 with no commitment and no box to buy.

Is this what they're doing? Who the @#$%^ knows? I'm still ticked at the number of people I had convinced to buy a Tivo for Christmas when service was $12.95 per month who have decided not to buy now. Hard to lock folks into SD TV for 3 years when SD TV is going away....

End of rant.


----------



## bmgoodman

Dan203 said:


> I'm pretty sure that those units will continue at whatever rate is available at the time when the year expires. Which means if you don't call and commit to 3 years then you will pay the $13.95/mo rate.
> 
> Dan


Dan, once product confusion reigns, being "pretty sure" isn't good enough. Please know I'm not angry with you because I know you don't work for Tivo. I'm angry that Tivo is leaving all these questions unclarified. Their silence is allowing confusion and resentment to build. Somebody there better be working on one helluva FAQ to be posted really soon.


----------



## bpurcell

ewolfr said:


> I honestly think that Tivo is trying to get out of the hardware business with this new pricing.


I really think this is the future of Tivo, if it is to survive. Hardware is VERY expensive to do R&D. Since most of their money (and potential profit) is in software, it makes sense to make deals with all the cable companies and license the software to their boxes. Even in this scenario, Tivo would probably have a nominal hardware business for the higher end buyers who want more than the cable co. boxes provide.


----------



## GoHokies!

bmgoodman said:


> Hard to lock folks into SD TV for 3 years when SD TV is going away....
> 
> End of rant.


As has been mentioned repeatedly in the thread you'll be able to swap boxes when you upgrade, so you're not locking yourself into SD for 3 years...


----------



## DrewTivo

samo said:


> Exactly the case. Free hardware in exchange for long commitment. This model is the only thing that stops people from switching to competition. Satellite and cable providers adapted this model also.


Except that the prices are the same whether you get a new box or don't. So either existing users are subsidizing new users, or there's no real subsidy.



filburt1 said:


> So you're saying if I have one TiVo on MSD for $6.95 now and I don't do anything about it, it'll stay at $6.95 with no intervention on my part and no commitments?
> 
> What about the one-year commitment I have on my Series2 DT? When its contract expires in about nine months, will I still get $12.95 a month, or a ridiculous $19.95/month...for the exact same service?


That's what hacks me off too. Similar situation, and I expected to get the 12.95 pricing when I bought the new one. Now I'm in a worse position because I can't even ditch the old box and get the $12.95 pricing back on the new one.


----------



## Einselen

bmgoodman said:


> Hard to lock folks into SD TV for 3 years when SD TV is going away....


No one is being locked into SD TV for 3 years. You can still upgrade, you just won't get the rebate. At this time we don't know what rebates will be offered for the S3 if any, and on top of that we don't know the terms.


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## classicsat

Einselen said:


> You know thinking about the new price plan for awhile it really isn't that bad. (Please don't kill me yet, lol).
> 
> In a way Tivo has not changed the option to pay $12.95 a month or $6.95 for MSD. It just requires a longer committment.


The longer commitment, or higher price, is what is bugging people.

In the grand scheme of things though (other monthly expenses), the increase isn't a whole lot, as far as the monthly price goes.



> The way I see it is like cell phone companies (I know we all hate them) but you usually have to sign up for 2 years to get a "free" or gratly reduced phone.


Thats the thing though. The assumption is the service is applied to
a new DVR. And with phone companies (to my knowledge), you have the one contract period (24 mths), you and don't pay different rates for a different contract period for the same level of service.



> I view Tivos as something more long term then cell phones. How many series has Tivo gone through since opening?


Essentially two. Series 3 is an extension of the S2 platform.


> Now compare that to cell phones.


It is more segmented, but basically there was analog and now digital. Although the older digital phones don't get new features, they will still work.


----------



## 1283

MikeMar said:


> I'm curious on that too.
> 
> Example question:
> 
> Box a - lifetime
> Box b - current msd (so no contract)
> 
> I buy box C and sign up for 3 years msd at 6.95
> 
> next year i CANCEL box B, and then can I move box C over to B and continue to the contract?


I assume you mean canceling box B and moving box B to contract C. If so, yes.


----------



## rdowty

If they're no longer subsidizing the box in the monthly rate then why aren't the monthy rates going down and not up and then why only now are they requiring a commitment?


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## Einselen

The new pricing plan for Tivo is to have expected revanue. Before youcould buy the box from retail, sign up with a 1 year committment and then after that one year go month by month and cancel anytime. Now Tivo is guarnteing rev.

Like I said before Tivo could have made it worse and said new service is $19.95 a month with a 1 year committment and then after the 1 year is up $19.95 month by month basis. Or they could have gone $14.95 a month with 2 year committment and then after 2 years $14.95 month by month. This is how cell phones work. I can not go to my cell phone compnay and be like I will commit for 3 years and get 450 min at $30 a month rather then $40 a month. I get one option and that is all. Tivo still has given us all different options, including prepay.

I do wish that MSD was more then just $6 off per month. Before MSD was almost 50% off, I wish that 1 year MSD would be ~$11, 2 years ~$8 and 3 yrs 6.95. (Of course I rather is just be $6.95 with 1 yr commit then month-to-month, but I don't think that will come back).

As far as technology goes yes it changes so long term committment is not best idea, but like I said how much has Tivo changes since it opened? 7 years and 3 series, sure if you commit to 3 years that goes over that average, but again looking at cell phones there are new ones out almost every week. Most new features come in new hardware, most of Tivos new features comes in software.


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## bidger

classicsat said:


> In the grand scheme of things though (other monthly expenses), the increase isn't a whole lot, as far as the monthly price goes.


If my D* or Verizon bill went up by $7/mo. or more, I'd take notice.


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## DrewTivo

bidger said:


> If my D* or Verizon bill went up by $7/mo. or more, I'd take notice.


Or up 50%, or 100%.


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## rawgutts

Well Tivo it was a nice run while it lasted.. I'm tired of the BS. I guess i'll use my 4 boxes as boat anchors.


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## DrewTivo

Einselen said:


> The new pricing plan for Tivo is to have expected revanue. Before youcould buy the box from retail, sign up with a 1 year committment and then after that one year go month by month and cancel anytime. Now Tivo is guarnteing rev.


They've also guaranteed that I will take a new 80 hour box every time I renew. Why keep the old one that might break, when new is free? It's $19.95/mo (or 12.95/mo) either way . . .


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## 1283

DrewTivo said:


> They've also guaranteed that I will take a new 80 hour box every time I renew.


That's one of the reasons TiVo has to increase the commitment period. With the previous MSD pricing, you can get a new box and service for $83.40 every year.


----------



## mick66

Einselen said:


> but when my 3 years is up on my prepay of this box and this price plan is still around I will commit probably to another three years to get the lowest price (maybe prepay again as I might not have MSD)


Considering that prices have changed twice this year, I wouldn't expect them to remain at todays rate for three years.


----------



## bilbo

ZeoTiVo said:


> I had refrained from replying in this thread till now hoping that TiVo would put some explanation to this chnage, even in the form of a press release. I think it very bad form to make such changes and offer not even a basic explanation of how the changes work.
> 
> That being said I would speculate like Dave has that they can not publicly give the reason since it applies directly to business strategy. I would agree with Dave that it seems the new pricing has siad they do not expect to grow Stand Alone subscribers much so the "3rd party" Stand Alones will now become a premium product even for the Series 2.
> 
> This says to me that the Series 3 must be meeting their expectations, sales wise. That the negotiations and delivery timetable for the MSO deals is going well and they still expect a good result in the EchoStar infringement trial.
> Hopefully they expect a good Fall update Release for the Stand Alone software as well.
> 
> for me personally - I have a a DT that will roll off a 1 year for 155.40 total deal and I was expecting that would go to 6.95 with just a 1 year committment. Seems now I have to rethink that and look at my other two MSD units since they both can drop back to TiVo Basic if need be.
> 
> If MRV and TTG were running in some form on the S3 I would hold out higher hope for this premium pricing direction. Have the MSOs won the 3rd party battle?


you are waiting for public comment from tivo? you might have to wait until their conference call at the end of november. tivo's latest quarter ended last week (october 31st), and i believe they are in their quiet period. this isn't meant to be stock talk (i know that's forbidden although i may have strayed recently) -- just don't expect too many press releases at this time (for the next two to three weeks).


----------



## DrewTivo

bilbo said:


> their quiet period.


that applies only to IPOs.

It's a good question what teh business strategy is behind this decision, and why they are raising prices so much, at least absent a commitment.


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## drews

I for one am not going to shell out $34/month for my 2 Tivos, no matter how much I like them.

I think it's time to sell my S3 and hook up a Mac instead. The $799 I paid for the S3 happens to match the price of a new Mac Mini with remote control, HDTV Tuner for QAM channels (mappable in the EyeTV program guide - I get CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX, ESPNHD, HDNet, DiscoveryHD etc.), no monthly fees - in fact my current cable bill will go down when I return the cable cards. I may even be able to downgrade to basic cable and still get the HD channels...


----------



## ChuckyBox

bpurcell said:


> I really think this is the future of Tivo, if it is to survive. Hardware is VERY expensive to do R&D. Since most of their money (and potential profit) is in software, it makes sense to make deals with all the cable companies and license the software to their boxes.


TiVo's biggest soruce of revenue is, by far, the standalone subscriptions. While the licensing to MSOs is very high margin, it is expected to represent about $1 per month in revenue vs. about $9 per month for standalone subscribers. Even after operating expenses, that is going to be at least a 5:1 ratio -- meaning that TiVo would need 7.5 million new cable subs to equal the income from their current sub base. That seems like an ambitious target, just to get where they are today.


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## bilbo

DrewTivo said:


> that applies only to IPOs.
> 
> It's a good question what teh business strategy is behind this decision, and why they are raising prices so much, at least absent a commitment.


Corporate silence is a choice
Companies often cite government-required quiet periods as reasons not to discuss many issues just before a quarterly report. But there's no such mandate. 
By Sergio G. Non 
Staff Writer, CNET News.com

Published: August 8, 2001, 5:00 AM PDT 
TalkBack E-mail Print del.icio.us Digg this 
news analysis Pre-earnings corporate silence isn't required, but don't expect companies to become more talkative anytime soon.

For years, publicly traded companies have been citing rules from the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission as reasons not to discuss almost anything related to corporate operations in the weeks preceding a quarterly report. "SEC-mandated quiet period" often becomes a boilerplate phrase for public-relations personnel when earnings are less than a month away.

Yet it's not even an SEC rule.

http://news.com.com/2100-1017-271257.html?legacy=cnet


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## lessd

I may be missing something BUT why would anybody take a 540 80 TiVo as a reward for 20,000 points. When this new unit arrives you put service on it for $19/95/month (1 Year commitment) or get a free 80 hour TiVo direct from TiVo for $19/95/month: which way makes more sense ???.

TiVo has to think this total Idea of single pricing across their total product line including their rewards. The least they could do on the rewards is give you the 80 hour TiVo and one year of service free, that has a $220 value as the TiVo 80 hours unit has zero value unless you want to sell the parts on E-Bay.

Oh well maybe this will offer some people a new career as TiVo purchase consultants to help the average Joe purchase a TiVo. Their no sense to buy a 540 TiVo from a retail outlet, sign up for $19.95/month service, and wait for your $220 rebate.


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## MikeMar

lessd said:


> Oh well maybe this will offer some people a new career as TiVo purchase consultants to help the average Joe purchase a TiVo. Their no sense to buy a 540 TiVo from a retail outlet, sign up for $19.95/month service, and wait for your $220 rebate.


It makes sense if the box is going to be on the multi-discount at least.


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## Halenstone

Tivo is a company. They don't care about you or me. They care about profits. Again, they don't care about you or me, as long as our checks don't bounce or our credit cards don't get rejected they are happy. 

So what's a few whiny customers to them, when they can get all this extra money?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, with the commodity of highband with internet, the PVR is going the way of the FREE microsoft Media Center.


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## Einselen

Halenstone said:


> Tivo is a company. They don't care about you or me. They care about profits. Again, they don't care about you or me, as long as our checks don't bounce or our credit cards don't get rejected they are happy.


I believe this statement is false. Yes bottom line companies care about profits, but also to make those profits they have to have customers and for customers to be happy the company has to care about them. Initially I was pissed, but now I am somewhat understanding the business plan of Tivo. When my prepaid Tivo expires in 2 years 11 months then I will stay with Tivo most likly because their software is far superior then any other alternatives (that may change, but we will see) and I also don't have to upgrade to digital cable (if that is still offered) in order to use the box.

Even with the new pricing plan, Tivo is still competative in my market. In order for me to get the DVR with my cable company at school I have to upgrade to digital at $12/month and then rent the box at $6/month. The digital tier I would get with the upgrade would be crap (about 10 channels) and not worth it except for one channel for a few shows for my girlfriend. Not to mention the Cable DVR I would not be able to upgrade so who knows how much TV I really could record.


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## JPA2825

If you're on a gift subscription (1 yr. [$155.40] being used at $6.95/mo. via MSD backed up by a valid credit card), when it switches from the gift subscription to the credit card, will this be a "triggering event" to kick you into the new pricing or will the unit be treated as grandfathered and only the method of payment is changing? I would like to think the latter, but the hysteria here is making me wonder.

Remember, this is not from the newer pricing format where you had to buy 1 yr. to get the pricing or the box, this is from a promotion in approx. May of 2005 where you bought $155.40 gift card with the box (140 hr.)

P.S. What impact does the new pricing scheme have on the S1 lifetime gathering dust in my attic? Any?


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## Popasmurf

Hmmm... I'll be in the same boat, but just assumed I'd just continue with 6.95, now you're making me wonder...



JPA2825 said:


> If you're on a gift subscription (1 yr. [$155.40] being used at $6.95/mo. via MSD backed up by a valid credit card), when it switches from the gift subscription to the credit card, will this be a "triggering event" to kick you into the new pricing or will the unit be treated as grandfathered and only the method of payment is changing? I would like to think the latter, but the hysteria here is making me wonder.
> 
> Remember, this is not from the newer pricing format where you had to buy 1 yr. to get the pricing or the box, this is from a promotion in approx. May of 2005 where you bought $155.40 gift card with the box (140 hr.)


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## drew2k

I just saw a "news" article about the price increase on BetaNews, quoting Dave Zatz and stating that TiVo had still not responded by press time to a request for comment.


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## mattpol

This is a superbly bad move by TiVo. Nothing more needs to be said. The courts should have fun picking apart the remains of Tivo, Inc. in the near future, I'm sure the "TiVo" name will be their most valuable asset when the inevitable bankruptcy filing strikes.


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## Gai-jin

Where is word from tivo on this? I think it's shameful that there's not been a tivo rep chime in so far to explain this new pricing.


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## colforbin13

Anyone know if the 12-month ($155.40) gift cards are still available at Best Buy? We bought a TiVo (80-hr DT) for my aunt for Christmas before we realized they changed the pricing. Gift cards are easiest so we don't have to register it for her, then transfer over payment, etc. and TiVo's own gift subscriptions are down. I need to know how much I need to collect from my brothers and sisters for one year of service.

I guess we could cut her a check for $155.40, then have her sign it up under the $299/3-year deal, and make out portion last longer than a year...


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## Seattle

I called TiVo again today and finally activated a TiVo with a one year agreement at $6.95 a month.


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## MikeMar

Seattle said:


> I called TiVo again today and finally activated a TiVo with a one year agreement at $6.95 a month.


did you have to jump through many hoops? I'm going to try activating 2 tivo's for 1 year 6.95 this week


----------



## Seattle

MikeMar said:


> did you have to jump through many hoops? I'm going to try activating 2 tivo's for 1 year 6.95 this week


Yes. The first call went fine and they told me I was set with one year service but when I checked my account online it was showing as three years service. I called back and the second person told me that the computers are giving trouble and to call back later. The third call they told me I had to cancel the three year and then they setup the one year contract. My activated TiVo now shows "TiVo Monthly Service Account in Good Standing" and I was told that I would pay $6.95 as long as I own that TiVo.


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## MikeMar

Seattle said:


> Yes. The first call went fine and they told me I was set with one year service but when I checked my account online it was showing as three years service. I called back and the second person told me that the computers are giving trouble and to call back later. The third call they told me I had to cancel the three year and then they setup the one year contract. My activated TiVo now shows "TiVo Monthly Service Account in Good Standing" and I was told that I would pay $6.95 as long as I own that TiVo.


when did you buy it? I have one i bought last week, and one i bought sunday.


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## Seattle

MikeMar said:


> when did you buy it? I have one i bought last week, and one i bought sunday.


I got it free from a moving sale near my house last month. I did not try to activate until today though.


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## ashu

davezatz said:


> I could do all of that _twice _in three years.


Gahh ... I'd be too heartbroken if I lost a dog, to get another one for much longer than 2 years.


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## TiVoPony

Hey all - 

Sorry, I've not been available to participate here today.

Reading through the notes here, there are some good points made, which I'll pass along.

I can clarify two things for you tonight:

* If you're currently at $6.95/mo for MSD, that box will continue to stay at $6.95/mo MSD. The only exception - if the status of your account changes (e.g. you discontinue service) that MSD rate will no longer apply.

* If you take advantage of the 'Transfer Lifetime to Series3' promotion, the old box that used to have Lifetime will be eligible for $6.95/mo MSD (or whatever is equivalent...legalese for lawyers) after the 12 months of comp'd service is over.

We understand that changes create questions, and we appreciate the discussions here. More tomorrow.

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## Gai-jin

Pony -- My main concern is with people that I've referred to tivo in the last month and week. I've got 2 people I referred who are expecting tivo's to be delivered tomorrow via ups. 

For the 1st year, one prepaid and the other signed up for 12.95 for a year.

What happens to these people after the year? Are they now stuck paying the new much higher rate? (I don't consider a longer than 1 year contract as an option for any service, tivo included.)

How is this affecting customers who are currently under a 12.95 agreement for a year (on purchased boxes, such as the refurb dvdrw currently for sale, or one bought from best buy?)


----------



## Tivohud

Well, this is all very frustrating. As others have said, when my current Tivo dies I am no longer sure that it will be replaced with another Tivo (which I would never have believe a year ago), and I can no longer recommend Tivo. Tivo should never, ever be as complicated as buying a cell phone. I hate having to guess what I'm going to pay!!!!


----------



## Gai-jin

Tivohud said:


> Tivo should never, ever be as complicated as buying a cell phone.


QFE


----------



## Seattle

TiVoPony said:


> Hey all -
> 
> Sorry, I've not been available to participate here today.
> 
> Reading through the notes here, there are some good points made, which I'll pass along.
> 
> I can clarify two things for you tonight:
> 
> * If you're currently at $6.95/mo for MSD, that box will continue to stay at $6.95/mo MSD. The only exception - if the status of your account changes (e.g. you discontinue service) that MSD rate will no longer apply.
> 
> * If you take advantage of the 'Transfer Lifetime to Series3' promotion, the old box that used to have Lifetime will be eligible for $6.95/mo MSD (or whatever is equivalent...legalese for lawyers) after the 12 months of comp'd service is over.
> 
> We understand that changes create questions, and we appreciate the discussions here. More tomorrow.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


Thank you for the info TiVoPony.


----------



## zaknafein

I've been a TiVo user for over 5 years. I've had numerous units over the years, and have recommended them to many friends and family.

This new pricing structure is beyond obscene. I had considered upgrading to a S3 next year, but won't now under the current terms. I most certainly won't be recommending any device to anyone that comes with a $20/month anvil strapped to it.

Truely unbelievable.


----------



## wilcotree

So if I have a upcoming "triggering event" then I need to agree to three years to get the same rate. What happens if TiVo goes out of business while you are under a contract? I hope it never happens but reading around the net today doesn't make me hopeful for Tivo's future.


----------



## Einselen

wilcotree said:


> What happens if TiVo goes out of business while you are under a contract? I hope it never happens but reading around the net today doesn't make me hopeful for Tivo's future.


I believe if Tivo goes out of business it would be Tivo selling the company to someone else. I don't think what is it 4.5 million subscribers will just be left out in the cold. That alone is worthwhile to some company to take over and turn around. This is a lot of what ifs. I am sure Tivo did a lot of calculating and projecting with this new business plan before laying it out.


----------



## Gai-jin

I'm sure they did. I'm just not sure they weight the bad press and loss of subscriber loyalty into it enough.


----------



## skaeight

There was a point at the beginning of this year that I was seriously considering going back to cable and getting a couple of SA tivos, possibly even a S3. Then they ended lifetime...

So a couple of months go by and I toyed with cable/tivo esp when the S3 was released, but I've been extremely happy with Directv and have grown to accept that the R15 /HR20s are ultimately the future ( I have an R15 and I've accepted it for what it is, and it does a pretty decent job). They aren't nearly as bad as people have said, honestly the only thing I can complain about is the 50 SL limit.

So today when I saw this, it pretty much put the nail in the coffin of my relationship with tivo. This really does mean I will never never ever buy another tivo. This is just ridiculous. Not only is it overpriced, but I would not feel comfortable committing to a 3 year contract for almost anything, let alone with a company that may not be around for another year at the rate they're going.

There are some serious problems at tivo. Things just get worse and worse. Tivo software is great, don't get me wrong, but it sure as heck isn't worth $20 / month. The real kick in the n*ts is that MSD is now more expensive than the full service fee used to be. I just don't get it. They're really doing everything they can do drive customers away (just as other cable/sat dvr solutions are getting better).


----------



## generalpatton71

TiVoPony said:


> Hey all -
> 
> Sorry, I've not been available to participate here today.
> 
> Reading through the notes here, there are some good points made, which I'll pass along.
> 
> I can clarify two things for you tonight:
> 
> * If you're currently at $6.95/mo for MSD, that box will continue to stay at $6.95/mo MSD. The only exception - if the status of your account changes (e.g. you discontinue service) that MSD rate will no longer apply.
> 
> * If you take advantage of the 'Transfer Lifetime to Series3' promotion, the old box that used to have Lifetime will be eligible for $6.95/mo MSD (or whatever is equivalent...legalese for lawyers) after the 12 months of comp'd service is over.
> 
> We understand that changes create questions, and we appreciate the discussions here. More tomorrow.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


First do the 12.95 main units get grandfathered in? Second I'd like to say I'm not perfect and once in a while my account is paid a couple days late and I'm notified I'm past due and it's paid right away. So if our accounts enter past due stage do we get the rate hike?

Third is there anything that could stop me from buying lifetime for my Humax DVD recorder and then transfer it over to a S3? That way I'd get a free year for my Humax and still be eligible for the 6.95 a month after that?

Heck what if you just change your CC info?????


----------



## murph2481

Oh Tivo i never thought I would leave you but not only do you raise your prices but you lock down your wireless WPA to your own hardware? Wow Mythbox or Freevo here I come this is ridiculous!!!!!!!!


----------



## southerndoc

murph2481 said:


> Oh Tivo i never thought I would leave you but not only do you raise your prices but you lock down your wireless WPA to your own hardware? Wow Mythbox or Freevo here I come this is ridiculous!!!!!!!!


 They didn't lock down the WPA to their own hardware. It's the only one that they developed. WPA takes a lot of overhead processing, and that's processing that strains the TiVo. The TiVo wireless adapter does some of the processing whereas most USB wireless access devices require the computer (in this case TiVo) to do all the work.

This isn't the only option available. You can do without WPA (most people don't need it anyhow), or you could use a USB-to-Ethernet bridge and if you absolutely must have wireless, do what I did... buy a Linksys ethernet-to-wireless bridge. It does all the work and I've not had a single problem out of it.

*RE: Pricing*

I understand that TiVo is losing money, and I understand it must generate more revenue to survive in this coldhearted business world. However, I think it is turning away potential subscribers by its high costs. 1 million subscribers at $20/month is not the same as 2 million subscribers at $15/month or 3 million at $10/month.

Perhaps by LOWERING prices TiVo may generate more revenue. I'm sure the bean counters considered this (or at least I hope they did) in their calculations. Regardless, I don't see many new customers being attracted to TiVo because of its high price tag.

Want to see what happens when you charge ridiculous prices? _Just ask Steve Case._ America Online is hemorrhaging subscribers because of its ridiculous prices. The same will happen with TiVo if it raises the prices of its current subscribers. If it maintains the same price for its current subscribers, the higher costs will certainly deter new subscribers.

Just my 3 cents... (2 cents, adjusted for George Dubbya Bush inflation).


----------



## davezatz

drew2k said:


> I just saw a "news" article about the price increase on BetaNews, quoting Dave Zatz and stating that TiVo had still not responded by press time to a request for comment.


For the record, BetaNews didn't speak to me - rather, they quoted the editorial piece on my blog. Also, they were the ones who had difficulty contacting TiVo, not I. TiVo has done a great job of making themselves available to me in recent months.


----------



## sdzc

Gai-jin said:


> Where is word from tivo on this? I think it's shameful that there's not been a tivo rep chime in so far to explain this new pricing.


And this silence is suprising in what way? They only talk (type) when it is something positive in their eyes. This is, of course, a negative...


----------



## timckelley

I'm glad both my boxes are lifetime. Though at least you can still get $6.95 with a 3 year commitment. If I ever buy a 3rd box, I think that's what I'd do. (Commit for 3 years.) Though you all have been saying there's still the option of transferring the $6.95 MSD to a 4th box down the road if I want to upgrade, but to tell the truth, if I buy a 3rd box retail, considering the cost of that box, I probably wouldn't upgrade it for at least 3 years anyway.


----------



## bpurcell

geekmedic said:


> Want to see what happens when you charge ridiculous prices? _Just ask Steve Case._ America Online is hemorrhaging subscribers because of its ridiculous prices.


Steve Case left AOL awhile ago. It appears he left at the right time, too. Do people even use AOL anymore? :down:


----------



## bwaldron

zaknafein said:


> I've been a TiVo user for over 5 years. I've had numerous units over the years, and have recommended them to many friends and family.
> 
> This new pricing structure is beyond obscene. I had considered upgrading to a S3 next year, but won't now under the current terms. I most certainly won't be recommending any device to anyone that comes with a $20/month anvil strapped to it.
> 
> Truely unbelievable.


Yes, indeed.

I am a long-time DirecTV subscriber, with an HD and 2 SD DirecTivos. For many reasons, including the fact that Tivo won't be available on new D* DVRs, I have been considering a move back to cable or over to FIOS. Had planned to buy a S3 and a couple of SD units as part of the switch.

No more. Obscene does seem to be a reasonable label for the new pricing. Much as I love Tivo, the cost/value equation has now gotten way out of whack.

This, sadly, does appear to be a desperate move by a dying company.


----------



## southerndoc

bpurcell said:


> Steve Case left AOL awhile ago. It appears he left at the right time, too. Do people even use AOL anymore? :down:


 That's my point. He left while the company was on a downward spiral that has since steepened its descent.


----------



## samo

arcadefreaque said:


> So it costs $299 for 2 years of prepaid service, or $299 for 3 years of prepaid service. hmmm... I wonder... which one should I choose...





> So the MSD 3 year plan costs MORE to pre-pay than to pay monthly? Who set these rates? Has Tivo heard of the time value of money?


Anybody is wondering why TiVo marketing sucks? Anybody is wondering why superior engineering product doesn't sell and company is losing money? Finally we got the answer - TiVo marketing geniuses don't know even basic math. They must be some kind of elementary school dropouts.


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## SnakeEyes

People wondering why I am not committing to three years? Simple, I already have an HDTV. 6 more referrals (hopefully) and an S3 is mine. I am not committing to three years of an SD unit.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Dan203 said:


> ... Although on the plus side it sounds like TiVo has moved away from tying the service to a particular box. So you should be able to sign up for a 3 year comitiment then down the road transfer that comitiment to another box should the original one break or you want to upgrade to HD.
> 
> Dan


If this is true, then I the whole thing is easier to swallow. I would like to see some official confirmation of this.


----------



## Dajad

Wow! I'm surprised at how calmly everyone is taking this!

Thank God I had a grandfathered right to transfer to my S3. 

People make comparison's to the cell phone industry and make it seem like this is all hunky-dory! I despise the cell phone industry business model and refuse to play along. I always purchase my phones at full price and refuse to commit to multi-year anything.

I have been a die-hard TiVo fan from the beginning but I simply cannot recommend TiVo now to anyone with this new pricing model. It really took me aback me when they took away lifetime but this new pricing increase is the straw that broke Dale's back as far as being willing to even consider suggesting TiVo to new customers. Everyone I know with lifetime is getting an e-mail from me suggesting they exercise their one-time right to move to the S3 by Dec. 31.

I guess TiVo expects that most people are fine with the razor/razor blade - cell phone/service model. The thing with cell phones is that since every player in the industry does it, they can all get away with it. Given this effective market collusion, North American customers do not have any choice. 

All of TiVo's competitors do NOT do this and we do have alternative choices. I will be buying the upper end Vista version when it comes out and I'll be looking into tuner cards and seeing if I can recommend Vista/XBox 360 combos as a viable alternative to Tivo. The MOT and SFA PVRs are crap and I can't recommend them - though even now they are looking more and more attractive because users aren't locked in this kind of a ridiculous pricing structures.

Who in hell would ever pay $19.95 a month for guide data!!!

TiVo, you've really disappointed one of your longest and most loyal fans with this one! 

... Dale


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## Stylin

Well, there goes me referring more ppl to sign up for TiVo, one of the biggest selling pts under the new pricing was a low msd. The new pricing model is not at all attractive. The old one didn't look that good but at least it was competitive. 

TiVo was doing so well securing new subs whenever they ran the promo deals, so obviously, ppl seem comfortable at $13/yr plus free hardware.

MSD: I could live with the 3yr commitment, but not qualifying the rebate, if you wish to switch hardware totally negates the 3yr term. TV technology is changing so fast, and the S3 doesn't even have all features enabled. How can someone commit to a term for that long?

Is current (pre change) MSD tied to the box if you are under a 1 yr contract? When you go month to month can you change hardware?


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## Dajad

Stylin, in light of this announcement, you might want to change your sig! I would think you ain't quite luv'n it any more!!!


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## Stylin

Sure right about that!!
The sig actually refers to all the tech stuff I'm stating to learn/understand b/c of you guys.

Edit: Sig changed.


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## mick66

bmgoodman said:


> So the MSD 3 year plan costs MORE to pre-pay than to pay monthly? Who set these rates? Has Tivo heard of the time value of money?


Actually, all of the new prepay MSD plans are more than the monthly MSD plans.

1 year monthly.........$13.95/mo....total cost $167.40
1 year prepay..........$16.58/mo ($199/12=16.58)
you lose *$31.60* by prepaying

2 year monthly........$8.95/mo....total cost $214.80
2 year prepay.........$12.46/mo ($299/24 =12.46)
you lose *$84.20* by prepaying

3 year monthly........$6.95/mo....total cost $250.20
3 year prepay..........$8.31/mo ($299/36=8.31) special price
3 year prepay..........$9.69/mo ($349/36=9.69) regular price
you lose *$48.80* or *$98.80* by prepaying

*That's just not right!* :down: :down: :down:

I recommend (not that Tivo really cares)
1 year MSD prepay $159 or the actual total monthly $167.40
2 year MSD prepay $209 or the actual total monthly $214.80
3 year MSD prepay $249 or the actual total monthly $250.20


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## Fofer

mick66 said:


> Actually, all of the new prepay MSD plans are more than the monthly MSD plans.


Okay, now that makes no sense whatsoever!



Unless by pre-paying you "lock" yourself into the current free structure, protecting yourself from future hikes. OMG, can you imagine if it went up any higher...?

In any case, I've got lifetime on my DTV account. I may switch to cable and a S3, but only because I still have a lifetime gift card I snagged at Best Buy before they ran out.

But, I'm certainly not going to recommend TiVo any longer to my clients... they've officially lost it.


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## 1283

Come on! You guys are just *making up* your own service plans!

*There is no such thing as "MSD prepay".*

The $199/$299 fees are the regular prepayment plans. There is no multi-service discount with prepayment. If you want MSD, pay monthly.


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## 1283

SnakeEyes said:


> People wondering why I am not committing to three years? Simple, I already have an HDTV. 6 more referrals (hopefully) and an S3 is mine. I am not committing to three years of an SD unit.


I don't know how many times it has been discussed in this thread already. There is no commitment for any box. Commitment is for continuous service. You can change the box as many times as you want, without additional rebate.


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## 1283

TiVo, you need a "bring your own box" discount, maybe in the form of a service credit. It doesn't make sense for a user to pay the same service fees for a new subsidized unit and a used cost-recovered unit.


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## 1283

Stylin said:


> MSD: I could live with the 3yr commitment, but not qualifying the rebate, if you wish to switch hardware totally negates the 3yr term.


Does it make sense for TiVo to give you a free S2 box every year and collect only $83.40 from you?


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## Stylin

My S2 wasn't free (even after rebate), nor is the DT, nor was the S3 I was hoping to purchase.


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## samo

Dajad said:


> The thing with cell phones is that since every player in the industry does it, they can all get away with it. Given this effective market collusion, North American customers do not have any choice.


I agree with everything you said except for quoted. I'm with Cricket cell service. No commitment, unlimited time for $50/month, but I had to pay for the phone. Well worth it in my opinion. Unfortunately, most of the public disagree with me - people like the free stuff even if they have to pay more for the service. But TiVo model for S3 - high initial cost plus high service cost is DOA.


----------



## 1283

Stylin said:


> My S2 wasn't free (even after rebate), nor is the DT, nor was the S3 I was hoping to purchase.


The current S2 is FAR. DT is pretty cheap after rebate. 1-year of $6.95 MSD is simply too low and probably doesn't even cover the cost of the hardware. As for S3, it's the perfect candidate for hardware swap because there is no rebate.


----------



## matt11

c3 said:


> Come on! You guys are just *making up* your own service plans!
> 
> *There is no such thing as "MSD prepay".*
> 
> The $199/$299 fees are the regular prepayment plans. There is no multi-service discount with prepayment. If you want MSD, pay monthly.


It would seem that prepayment shouldn't even be an option when activating another box for MSD. I guess TiVo is just hoping some people won't catch the fact that if they prepay, they'd actually be paying more.


----------



## Fofer

arcadefreaque said:


> So it costs $299 for 2 years of prepaid service, or $299 for 3 years of prepaid service. hmmm... I wonder... which one should I choose...


Yeah, what's up with that? I mean, is that a typo?


----------



## hammer32

I've had TiVo since 2001. I gave two TiVos as gifts last year but, I won't be giving away TiVo for Christmas this year... I've got a DirecTV HD TiVo and was planning to move to an S3 and digital cable once D* starts to add national MPEG4 HD channels the HD TiVo can't see, but this is making me rethink that.


----------



## edhara

*sigh*  :down:

Never thought I'd see the day when TiVo turns their backs on their fan base.


----------



## Puppy76

Tivo's stand alone business is finished. It was an INCREDIBLY hard sell at the beginning of this year when there was lifetime. It became impossible for me to interest anyone in it after lifetime went away. And now they raise the prices? 

I realize some of you are still willing to pay these new prices-but It's over. Most people didn't "get" it even when it was a good deal. There's no chance Tivo's stand alone business can survive at these new rates.


----------



## tibruk

I'm not sure what the real problem is with doing a 3 year commitment in this case. My current Tivo turns 3 this month. It's not something that once I've bought the unit I started looking for something to replace it with. Something like a Tivo is something that will last for years to begin with and you can't use it without the service anyway. Like I read earlier the commitment is not on the specific box but on the service itself so if the box breaks I'm still likely to replace it so no change. 

The Tivo commitment is not like a cell phone commitment where you are constantly looking for better rates or newer phones. Tivo's are a much more stable product.

Tibruk


----------



## timckelley

I think for people adding a second box, these new rates are no big deal. That's because if you've already used TiVo, you probably know that you'll keep using it for at least another 3 years, and the 3 year committment didn't go up in price. Remember, you can still upgrade to a different box before 3 years and not be in breach of contract.

However, I can see the new price structure pretty much halting the influx of new customers. I think somebody who hasn't used TiVo won't be prepared to commit for 3 years, and the 1-2 year price is too steep.


----------



## Gai-jin

Puppy76 said:


> Tivo's stand alone business is finished. It was an INCREDIBLY hard sell at the beginning of this year when there was lifetime. It became impossible for me to interest anyone in it after lifetime went away. And now they raise the prices?
> 
> I realize some of you are still willing to pay these new prices-but It's over. Most people didn't "get" it even when it was a good deal. There's no chance Tivo's stand alone business can survive at these new rates.


Especially when tivo's best sales staff, you and I, no longer believes in the product.

Sorry, but it's not worth $20 a month per tivo. And there's nothing worth signing up for a 3 year contract. I won't sign more than a year lease, or a year contract with a cell provider, and certainly not to get lower prices from TiVo.


----------



## Fofer

I have a high tolerance for stuff like this. And this pricing is just... bizarre. It really is.

If I was a potential new TiVo customer, I'd see the Series 3 for sale at $800... which also has a $20/month subscription fee. I don't care how much better it is over the (nearly free) cable DVR... for that price differential it better clean my house and tuck me in at night, too.

It's just television. WTF is TiVo thinking?


----------



## timckelley

Gai-jin said:


> And there's nothing worth signing up for a 3 year contract.


Back when Lifetime was offered, that was like signing a 2 year contract, and people (including me) were willing to do it. Why all of a sudden is 3 years no longer palatable? Is going from 2 to 3 a big difference?

In fact, when I signed up for my second lifetime, as many of you have done, that's like signing a 3.5 year contract (since that's the breakeven point ($299/6.99). We were willing to do that. Why aren't people willing to sign for a 3 year contract, when just earlier this year they were?

Plus, the extinguishment of lifetime was such a huge deal on these forums, which implies that the 2 - 3.5 year contract was not bad.

Oh, in addition, the lifetime was like a 2 to 3.5 year committment to the box. This new pricing structure is only a committment to service, which is less demanding to the customer.


----------



## Ingersoll

The XBOX 360 Live crew over at Microsoft must be giddy today. 

Not only do they launch online movies for the 360 but they now have a golden opportunity to step in and recover one of the biggest marketing fumbles for the digital living room in memory.

I wonder whats going on in conference rooms in Redmond and Cupertino today


----------



## Gai-jin

timckelley said:


> Back when Lifetime was offered, that was like signing a 2 year contract, and people (including me) were willing to do it. Why all of a sudden is 3 years no longer palatable? Is going from 2 to 3 a big difference


I don't see it at all as the same thing. If you sign up for lifetime, you're paying a flat rate for service for as long as you choose to use it. If you decide after 1 year to stop using it, there's no additional penalty to you. If you continue to use it for 5 years, there's no additional cost.


----------



## timckelley

Gai-jin said:


> I don't see it at all as the same thing. If you sign up for lifetime, you're paying a flat rate for service for as long as you choose to use it. If you decide after 1 year to stop using it, there's no additional penalty to you. If you continue to use it for 5 years, there's no additional cost.


But the cost is the same as a 2 to 3.5 year committment, so financially there's no difference.

But I need to retract my whole argument based on a complete different reason. With lifetime, you could sell the box and get your $299 back because the lifetime had value. With these new contracts, there's no lifetime, and hence that lifetime resale value is no longer there.


----------



## jgickler

So going forward MSD will either be nearly twice as expensive as it was yesterday, or you have to make a commitment that is triple what the commitment was yesterday.

I have 4 Tivo's, 2 on lifetime, one on an MSD monthly of $6.95 which TivoPony says will not changed, and a 4th that is a DT with a prepaid 1 year of service. 

For the DT I had thought I was buying the DT and 1 year of service, plus at the end of that year I could choose to commit to an additional year and get the $6.95 MSD. I chose this over a purchase from a retail store because it was a few dollars cheaper.

Now I find out that if I want the $6.95 I will have to commit to an additional 3 years or pay double the current MSD price. If I had known about this change, I probabily would have bought the DT from retail instead of through Tivo. 

I would hope that Tivo has some kind of grandfather clause for those of us who have committed to a prepay or package option. Maybe credit for past service, so if I prepaid for 1 year, I would only need to commit to 2 additional years to get the lower price. But when I look at this, getting rid of lifetime, S3 being less then fully functional, and the low price of other solutions, I think it will be hard to justify another Tivo.


----------



## DrewTivo

wilcotree said:


> So if I have a upcoming "triggering event" then I need to agree to three years to get the same rate. What happens if TiVo goes out of business while you are under a contract? I hope it never happens but reading around the net today doesn't make me hopeful for Tivo's future.


Well, if they go out of business (as opppoed to being sold), you presumably wouldn't have to keep paying them for service you're not getting.


----------



## dianebrat

Not yet mentioned..

Those of us that have S3's we moved lifetime onto.. we have S2's with 1-year prepay on them gratis, will we get grandfathered $6.95 MSD? or did we just wind up in a no-win scenario where we will get hammered with the high MSD prices and requirements as of September 2007?

For $6.95 a month I'd have kept the S2 running for another year or 2, at $13.95 I just moved to an MCE machine instead of Tivo.

Diane


----------



## sanderton

Over here in the UK, the service has always been $19 (£10).


----------



## kido

dianebrat said:


> Not yet mentioned..
> 
> Those of us that have S3's we moved lifetime onto.. we have S2's with 1-year prepay on them gratis, will we get grandfathered $6.95 MSD? or did we just wind up in a no-win scenario where we will get hammered with the high MSD prices and requirements as of September 2007?
> 
> For $6.95 a month I'd have kept the S2 running for another year or 2, at $13.95 I just moved to an MCE machine instead of Tivo.
> 
> Diane


We get grandfathered in.

But to be honest, I just don't understand. You are going to spend upwards of $1000 on a new MCE machine that may or may not have cable cards to avoid paying an additional $84 for a one year MSD plan, or an additional $48 for a two year plan, or an additional $0 for a 3 year plan?


----------



## dianebrat

kido said:


> We get grandfathered in.
> 
> But to be honest, I just don't understand. You are going to spend upwards of $1000 on a new MCE machine that may or may not have cable cards to avoid paying an additional $84 for a one year MSD plan, or and additional $48 for a two year plan, or an additional $0 for a 3 year plan?


I'm saying that I have at least 2 spare MCE machines that can go into service to replace my S2 if I'm going to be required to buy a 2-year commitment of $13.95 a month for a total of around $350.

My S3 is on lifetime and will stay with me until its dying breath, but the S2 at $13.95 a month an MCE at zero is attractive.

Diane


----------



## Bytez

Does this increase in price affect current customers? I'm cancelling ASAP if it does.

First, they remove lifetime, now they are almost doubling their rates. Moreover, only their own wireless wpa adaptor works. I want to see some justification on all of this. :down: :down:


----------



## TiVoPony

dianebrat said:


> Not yet mentioned..
> 
> Those of us that have S3's we moved lifetime onto.. we have S2's with 1-year prepay on them gratis, will we get grandfathered $6.95 MSD? or did we just wind up in a no-win scenario where we will get hammered with the high MSD prices and requirements as of September 2007?
> 
> For $6.95 a month I'd have kept the S2 running for another year or 2, at $13.95 I just moved to an MCE machine instead of Tivo.
> 
> Diane


That exact question was answered last night in this thread. No you're not getting 'hammered':

Here's the post from last night

Pony


----------



## dianebrat

TiVoPony said:


> That exact question was answered last night in this thread. No you're not getting 'hammered':
> 
> Here's the post from last night
> 
> Pony


My bad.. and awesome news, I had thought I'd been diligent in reading this thread, but it's been moving so fast I missed that one.

thanks Pony!

Diane


----------



## kido

dianebrat said:


> I'm saying that I have at least 2 spare MCE machines that can go into service to replace my S2 if I'm going to be required to buy a 2-year commitment of $13.95 a month for a total of around $350.
> 
> My S3 is on lifetime and will stay with me until its dying breath, but the S2 at $13.95 a month an MCE at zero is attractive.
> 
> Diane


The 2 year commitment is $8.95 per month for MSD, not $13.95. So it is an additional $48 over what was in place last week for the 2 years of MSD service. If you commit to an extra year you would pay nothing in addition.

But as TiVoPony pointed out, you are eligible for the orginal $6.95 rate for MSD.


----------



## Bytez

is Tivo forgetting that there isn't a lack of DVR alternatives?


----------



## timckelley

Bytez said:


> Does this increase in price affect current customers? I'm cancelling ASAP if it does.
> 
> First, they remove lifetime, now they are almost doubling their rates. Moreover, only their own wireless wpa adaptor works. I want to see some justification on all of this. :down: :down:


No, TiVoPony says current customers are protected as long as you don't let your service lapse.


----------



## bmgoodman

I have a Series 2 540 unit that seems to be having more and more interference lines in the picture. I was going to retire it and get a new DT. Assume I get the new DT and sign up for 3 years to get the original $6.95/mo MSD rate. Assume something happens to the DT in that period that is too expensive to repair. Can I place the "retired" 540 unit back into service to fulfill the remainder of my 3 year agreement? If yes, are there any "gotchas"? (Do I have to extend the contract, does the rate change, do I pay a transfer fee?)

I'd really like to hear TivoPony's answer to this one so that it is completely clear to me. Thanks.


----------



## jgickler

timckelley said:


> No, TiVoPony says current customers are protected as long as you don't let your service lapse.


The way I read his comments, this is only true if you receive MSD. There has not yet been any promise of protection for the $12.95 single unit monthly price.


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## timckelley

jgickler said:


> The way I read his comments, this is only true if you receive MSD. There has not yet been any promise of protection for the $12.95 single unit monthly price.


Good point. He needs to address that. If they aren't protected, that does sound like a raw deal.

Regardless, it sounds like a raw deal for newcomers that don't already have a TiVo, and aren't prepared to trust it enough to sign a 3 year contract.


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## bilbo

I really haven't looked at my cable company's offerings lately, but last time I checked it was about $10 per month additional for digital cable service which provided about 2-3 more channels and a guide. so an additional $13 for a tivo with guide seems like a pretty good value when you sign up for a 3-year commitment.

I also think it's funny that I haven't seen in my perusing any mention of the following sentence from the multi-year and annual agreements (which isn't new):
"The parts portion only of your Limited Warranty for your TiVo DVR will be extended for the term of your commitment period."


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## timckelley

This whole pricing thing does seem complicated to me though. Who's protected, who's not, MSD vs no MSD, 1, 2, 3 year prices. Bundled vs nonbundled. It does seem a bit overwhelming.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

TiVoPony said:


> Hey all -
> 
> Sorry, I've not been available to participate here today.
> 
> Reading through the notes here, there are some good points made, which I'll pass along.
> 
> I can clarify two things for you tonight:
> 
> * If you're currently at $6.95/mo for MSD, that box will continue to stay at $6.95/mo MSD. The only exception - if the status of your account changes (e.g. you discontinue service) that MSD rate will no longer apply.
> 
> * If you take advantage of the 'Transfer Lifetime to Series3' promotion, the old box that used to have Lifetime will be eligible for $6.95/mo MSD (or whatever is equivalent...legalese for lawyers) after the 12 months of comp'd service is over.
> 
> We understand that changes create questions, and we appreciate the discussions here. More tomorrow.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


This needs to be updated.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723&page=1&pp=30


----------



## Gai-jin

TiVoPony said:


> That exact question was answered last night in this thread. No you're not getting 'hammered':
> 
> Here's the post from last night
> 
> Pony


Now that it's tomorrow, Could you please clarify other aspects of this pricing scandal?


----------



## PhillyGuy

So if you sign up for the MSD 3 year contract, but later retires the other TVs leaving only that one box, do you then have to finish that 3 year commitment at $12.99?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

jgickler said:


> I would hope that Tivo has some kind of grandfather clause for those of us who have committed to a prepay or package option.


This is the one question I have not seen answered yet. I also have a DT I bought at 155.40 for one year prepaid. What will happen at the end of the year? I was expecting to call and agree to another 1 year contract and pay 6.95 MSD on it.
I will note that I already paid a small amount to gte the DT for 1 year, paying somewhat more or agreeing to longer time seems fair to me as TiVo really should make a fair profit on me at some point 

as for the rest of the plan - we had the answer on the 1 year gratis deal on lifetime transfer to an S3 - pay the 6.95 rate. Again a really low price.

As for exisitng plans and customers - no chnage in anyone's bill so no fuss there.
I think we all just got spoiled as TiVo used real lowball deals to work to expand the customer base. That time is over and TiVo now wants to make a fair profit on each deal vs lowballing to get more customers. We will just have to adjust to that new business plan. Frankly I still will pay way less than putting together a PC system that would record on 7 tuners and allow me to watch any show at any TV in my house plus I still have TTG and burn a show to DVD easily.

Will it be harder to sell the service to a new customer. Depends on how they view a TiVo and if they see a 2 or 3 year committment as a problem. So the short answer is yes it will be somehwhat harder but this plan is clearly about profitability on new plans being started going forward. Remain calm and I still think "death of TiVo" is way premature as you consider the fact they may well be climbing to sustained profitability between stronger committments on new service and MSO deals and resolution of the E* verdict in 2007


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## DrewTivo

timckelley said:


> Regardless, it sounds like a raw deal for newcomers that don't already have a TiVo, and aren't prepared to trust it enough to sign a 3 year contract.


Isn't pricing for them basically the same? I.e., before the changes it was $19.95/mo for a one-year commitment, in conjunction with a free box.


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## Spiff72

What about a grandfather clause for month-to-month subs? I have an early S2 on month -to-month at $12.95 and my S3 at $6.95 with the MSD. I have always had both units month-to-month and never made any commitments.

Does this mean my rates will stay the same, or will I get hit for $19.95+13.95 per month?


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## ParrtHd2

Here is my current line-up of Tivos that I have at my home. Philips Series 1 20-hour (paying monthly $12.95) Tivo Series 2 40-hour (paying monthly $6.95 MSD) and Tivo Series 2 40-hour (paying monthly $6.95 MSD). Last week I started thinking of retiring the 20-hour unit so I started looking around for the best deal. The things that I was look for was best price and no contracts or at least a 1 year obligation. Well the deals from Tivos web site did not look that good due to the obligations; I decide to go through a retailer. 

The new Tivo that I wanted to get is the Tivo S2 Dual Tuner 180 hour unit and you just cant get them in stores. So to the Internet I went, and found the best price in our own Tivo community store. I made my decision to this: Buy the Tivo and retire the Series 1 and pay 12.95 a month with a 1 year obligation. The sell was made on Friday Nov. 3. Skip to Monday, and all hells broke out and Im not sure on what to do. I have come up with 2 options but I am looking for others for I really dont like either of mine. 1st option is to just do a transfer of the TSN numbers with the Series 1 and continue with the $12.95 a month. The problem with this option is that I will lose the $150.00 rebate and I dont even know if this would be allowed. Option 2 would be close out the account on the Series 1 and sign a 3-year contract with the S2 T 180 for $12.95 and hope that after the 3 years are up that I wont be hit again.

The perfect option would be to be close out the account on the Series 1 and register the S2 DT 180 at $12.95 a month with the obligation of 1 year. Can this still be done? (TivoPony) Had I had known that this change was coming; I would have ordered this unit earlier. Could there be some sort of grace period for this transition? Thanks for your help.


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## jgickler

ZeoTiVo said:


> As for exisitng plans and customers - no chnage in anyone's bill so no fuss there.


We do not know this. What we know is that existing $6.95 MSD customers will not have their price changed. There have been nothing to indicate that customers paying $12.95 for the first unit, or customers with an existing service contract will in any way to grandfathered in. From the official statements, I would assume that the $12.95 price would go up, and anyone on a current service play ( including prepaid service) will have to pay the the higher prices or substantially increase the commitment time.


----------



## timckelley

DrewTivo said:


> Isn't pricing for them basically the same? I.e., before the changes it was $19.95/mo for a one-year commitment, in conjunction with a free box.


Before these changes, I think the cheapest way a newcomer could get TiVo was to buy it retail for cheap (rebates usually involved to get the box for cheap), then sign a one-year committment for $12.95 per month. Now, for a one year committment, a newcomer has to pay $19.95 / mo.


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## ChuckyBox

Did anybody see Megazone's post ? He does a nice job comparing the old pricing to the new, and pointing out that in most cases there is a price reduction, and in some cases it is a significant price reduction.


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## Fofer

timckelley said:


> This whole pricing thing does seem complicated to me though. Who's protected, who's not, MSD vs no MSD, 1, 2, 3 year prices. Bundled vs nonbundled. It does seem a bit overwhelming.


And at the end of the day, this is for a television recorder!

Too confusing. Too expensive.


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## ChuckyBox

timckelley said:


> Before these changes, I think the cheapest way a newcomer could get TiVo was to buy it retail for cheap (rebates usually involved to get the box for cheap), then sign a one-year committment for $12.95 per month. Now, for a one year committment, a newcomer has to pay $19.95 / mo.


You are comparing the cheapest to the most expensive, while ignoring the increased rebate. See Megazone's post (linked above) for a better comparison.


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## DrewTivo

ChuckyBox said:


> Did anybody see Megazone's post ? He does a nice job comparing the old pricing to the new, and pointing out that in most cases there is a price reduction, and in some cases it is a significant price reduction.


That's true, but for new customers it's a reduction and existing customers it's an increase.

In other words, what Tivo has basically done is give everybody the same pricing, regardless of whether you buy a new box or not.

So that means that new customers, without a box, are getting subsidized by existing customers who have a box, but have to pay the same price for service only as new customers pay for service plus a box.

It's like the old Sprint ad: "Why does bobby get the 64 colors of crayons and we get only 8?" "Because bobby's the new kid in school."


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## Gai-jin

ChuckyBox said:


> You are comparing the cheapest to the most expensive, while ignoring the increased rebate. See Megazone's post (linked above) for a better comparison.


The comparison is of the 2 1 year agreement options. To compare the old 1 year option (buying retail) to the new 3 year option wouldn't be quite right.

yes, the rebate is increased. Still a raw deal for the customer in the long run.


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## Gai-jin

And one big irritation for me:

I own several TiVos. I have 2 which are unactivated, having been recently replaced in my home with newer models. I generally give the old one away when this happens. However, now the hardware I own has less than 0 value. 

There is NO reason a customer who already owns his hardware should have to pay prices which include new hardware spread out into monthly payments.


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## Figaro

Wow! This brings all new meaning to the term "Market penetration."

I guess TiVo really want's be to become better friends with my cable company?


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## davezatz

ChuckyBox said:


> Did anybody see Megazone's post ? He does a nice job comparing the old pricing to the new, and pointing out that in most cases there is a price reduction, and in some cases it is a significant price reduction.


There's no price reduction if all I want is month-to-month service on an existing box. I think the new plan seriously hinders the ebay and hand-me-down market which is where many new customers get their start (I did). The main price reductions come with a 3 year agreement - Will the average consumer new to TiVo at Best Buy debating between the cable company box ($10/mo, no up-front fee, no commitment) bite? Will the surly minimum wage Best Buy employee explain Megazone's mathematics? It's not us current customers on the forum that need to be convinced, it's potential customers... Reduction or no reduction in cost, it _seems _like more money so for all intents and purposes in the marketplace it _is_.

Also I assume TiVo is losing money on MSD and/or feels they can apply pricing pressure on that group of theoretically satisfied customers to gain revenue without impacting subscriptions.


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## Gai-jin

davezatz said:


> It's not us current customers on the forum that need to be convinced, it's potential customers...


I contend that existing TiVo subscribers are TiVo's #1 sales force. As such, convincing / satisfying existing customers is absolutely relevant.


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## rainwater

davezatz said:


> It's not us current customers on the forum that need to be convinced, it's potential customers...


I think its the current customers this hurts the most. TiVo simplified the pricing structure for new users so its the same no matter where you buy the box. I think the big issue is after my contract runs up on my boxes, it's not very likely I will continue with all of them because these new pricing structures don't make sense to a owner who has already had a box for 2-3 years.


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## davezatz

Gai-jin said:


> I contend that existing TiVo subscribers are TiVo's #1 sales force. As such, convincing / satisfying existing customers is absolutely relevant.


Then this thread and much of the commentary around the net indicate TiVo is not doing a very good job mobilizing their sales force. There's no way I can recommend a three year commitment on a standard def unit to anyone and the S3 is priced well above the casual consumers budget. I have a hard time recommending a S2 @ $20/mo unless someone needs TiVoToGo. I'll have a hard time choosing to pay $13.95/mo for my bedroom S2 as a second unit when it comes out from the 1 year prepaid plan next month. I think TiVo will squeeze as much out of their existing customers as possible as they migrate into a software, service, and patent licensing company over the next few years.


rainwater said:


> I think its the current customers this hurts the most. TiVo simplified the pricing structure for new users so its the same no matter where you buy the box. I think the big issue is after my contract runs up on my boxes, it's not very likely I will continue with all of them because these new pricing structures don't make sense to a owner who has already had a box for 2-3 years.


I agree it hurts us the most, but I also think they're gambling we're unlikely to defect.


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## Ingersoll

davezatz said:


> I agree it hurts us the most, but I also think they're gambling we're unlikely to defect.


Five or even two years ago that would have been a good gamble... Now, not so much.


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## ChuckyBox

DrewTivo said:


> That's true, but for new customers it's a reduction and existing customers it's an increase.
> 
> In other words, what Tivo has basically done is give everybody the same pricing, regardless of whether you buy a new box or not.
> 
> So that means that new customers, without a box, are getting subsidized by existing customers who have a box, but have to pay the same price for service only as new customers pay for service plus a box.


As far as anybody can tell, existing customers with existing hardware are going to go on paying what they are paying now.

I agree with others that TiVo should make an exception for existing hardware that is re-subscribed, since these are zero-SAC subs -- Pony, you listening? -- and would insure a healthy aftermarket for used boxes. I also suspect that any existing customer who complains about a price increase (on, say, a resubbed box) will get the old rates.

For those of you predicting the doom of TiVo, keep in mind that they have been offering essentially this deal -- free box, $19.95/month -- on the web site since the spring, and are apparently confident enough of its appeal to bring it to the retail market as well.


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## ChuckyBox

Gai-jin said:


> I contend that existing TiVo subscribers are TiVo's #1 sales force. As such, convincing / satisfying existing customers is absolutely relevant.


Sort of. I think if you draw a graph of evangelical zeal vs. time, it would have a pretty sharp downtrend after the first year. And new subs, brought in at the new prices, are not going to have our bitterness about price changes, service commitments, end of lifetime service, etc. It's the new folks that will bring in new customers. We're just a bunch of highly-opinionated net-dwelling curmudgeons with too much time on our hands -- the few TiVo's we sell won't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy, mixed-up world.

Old Timer: "Those bastards. It's just like when the rates went from $9.95 to $12.95."
New Guy: "What? $12.95? What century was that?"


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## Fofer

True, but a new (potential) sub will see these prices and go running for the almost-free and "good enough" DVR offered by their cable/satellite provider. They've never experienced TiVo so don't know how much "better" it is, nor why it really matters! They _certainly_ won't know enough to be able to justify the $15 or more per month differential (not to mention the upfront cost of the hardware!)

TiVo, Inc. has been compared to the venerable fruit company before. This reminds me of Apple's hubris and pricing mistakes in the early 90's. Folks will be fine to pay (way!) less for a passable DVR, just as they were fine to use the crappiness that was Windows on a (cheaper) PC. And we all know how that turned out.

Luckily Jobs came back and the iMac and iPod came along. What does TiVo have up their sleeve to save them?


----------



## jgickler

ChuckyBox said:


> As far as anybody can tell, existing customers with existing hardware are going to go on paying what they are paying now.


People keep saying this, but there has been no official word on this ( except current MSD boxes).

Don't you think TivoPony would have been out in front of this, if infact existing customers were not going to be affected? He could have avoided a lot of upset customers if he had said this last night. But we still have not seen any comments on existing users pricing, except in two very specific examples. I think the only logical conclusion at this point is that the 12.95 folks will see their prices rising.


----------



## bmgoodman

Fofer said:


> What does TiVo have up their sleeve to save them?


Psst... I hear it's something called a tPod....


----------



## ufo4sale

Gai-jin said:


> And one big irritation for me:
> 
> I own several TiVos. I have 2 which are unactivated, having been recently replaced in my home with newer models. I generally give the old one away when this happens. However, now the hardware I own has less than 0 value.
> 
> There is NO reason a customer who already owns his hardware should have to pay prices which include new hardware spread out into monthly payments.


If I own the freking box there is no way i'm going to pay the same rate has someone who didn't purchase a box. I hope that this is a HUGH mistake by TiVo and that they will correct this.


----------



## Einselen

ufo4sale said:


> If I own the freking box there is no way i'm going to pay the same rate has someone who didn't purchase a box. I hope that this is a HUGH mistake by TiVo and that they will correct this.


You get a free box when you buy from Tivo.com, but I also get a free box when I buy retail and apply the rebate. (Talking about ST S2 here of course)


----------



## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> You get a free box when you buy from Tivo.com, but I also get a free box when I buy retail and apply the rebate. (Talking about ST S2 here of course)


And if I already own a box? Say, perhaps, I'm a tivo customer of 6 years? Maybe I've got a couple of old ones laying around I want to give away, to help a friend or family join the TiVolution and to help tivo with new subs?

Oh, wait, tivo doesn't want new subs. Nevermind.


----------



## DrewTivo

jgickler said:


> People keep saying this, but there has been no official word on this ( except current MSD boxes).
> 
> Don't you think TivoPony would have been out in front of this, if infact existing customers were not going to be affected? He could have avoided a lot of upset customers if he had said this last night. But we still have not seen any comments on existing users pricing, except in two very specific examples. I think the only logical conclusion at this point is that the 12.95 folks will see their prices rising.


Right. There are two groups affected:

1) Anyone who recently purchased a tivo with a service agreement or prepaid. When that term is up, their only choice is one of the new agreements--there appears to be no month-to-month $12.95 option. (I personally am in this boat, and now wished I'd purchased at retail and subscribed rather than buying from tivo prepaid, which at the time appeared to be a better deal.)

2) Anyone else. While it may appear that current subscribers can continue month to month at their existing price of $12.95 (until that's raised), it may be that they will also be forced into a term agreement as well.

So there's almost certainly one sizable group, and potentially a much larger group, that will be affected by this, and every one of them is an existing customer.


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## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> And if I already own a box? Say, perhaps, I'm a tivo customer of 6 years? Maybe I've got a couple of old ones laying around I want to give away, to help a friend or family join the TiVolution and to help tivo with new subs?
> 
> Oh, wait, tivo doesn't want new subs. Nevermind.


If you just bought the box in the past few days I am sure you can call up and ask if you can get the pervious pricing plan as your rebate will entitle you only to $150.

If you have owned the boxes for awhile and you are going to give them to a person who will be a new Tivo owner then it would be smarter to buy new boxes (again talking ST S2 here, not DT). If you are giving it to someone already a Tivo owner then you gotta make a choice on if you think it is worth the sale tax, gas and waiting for rebate for a brand new box.

Maybe I am missing what your point is as I do not think I fully understand it.


----------



## Jaysv

Einselen said:


> You get a free box when you buy from Tivo.com, but I also get a free box when I buy retail and apply the rebate. (Talking about ST S2 here of course)


Correct, the upfront and monthly/yearly cost are the same no matter if purchase retail or thru Tivo.

Additionally, based on their current pricing model, there appears to be no subsidy of the box being factored into the monthly payment. Either that or Tivo is saying screw you to every customer that has fulfilled their commitment.


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## Gai-jin

I think your post made the point quite clear. It should NOT be cheaper to get a new box than to use one I already own. 

They include the cost of the hardware in the monthly fee. If I own the hardware, the monthly fee should be lower by that amount.


----------



## Einselen

I am gonna tackle the why Tivo has been silent argument.

I believe that soon (within a few days) Tivo will have an official announcement answering all of our concerns. There is a lot of what if situations that we brought up that need to be considered and rather then Pony jumping on in here and saying something I am sure Tivo has put a gag on their employees until everyone understands what the entire situation is. For new customers the new pricing plan is simple, for existing it is a little hairy on who gets grandfathered in and depends on what the terms said when you signed up. It is better for Tivo to sit down and outline with all employees how this will work with us exisitng customers then having Pony (or some other Tivo employee) come out and convery the wrong message. Just give it time.


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> They include the cost of the hardware in the monthly fee. If I own the hardware, the monthly fee should be lower by that amount.


They used to. Now they give the hardware away for free (ST) and you are paying for serivce. It is like getting a free cell phone and only paying for the service. You can get the basic phone (ST 80 hr S2) or you can pay nominal fees and upgrade your hardware.


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## DrewTivo

Jaysv said:


> Additionally, based on their current pricing model, there appears to be no subsidy of the box being factored into the monthly payment. Either that or Tivo is saying screw you to every customer that has fulfilled their commitment.


The latter. If it were the former, you would have to pay at least a few pennies for the basic box. It's not free to produce. Perhaps cheap, but not free.


----------



## DrewTivo

Einselen said:


> I am gonna tackle the why Tivo has been silent argument.
> 
> I believe that soon (within a few days) Tivo will have an official announcement answering all of our concerns. There is a lot of what if situations that we brought up that need to be considered and rather then Pony jumping on in here and saying something I am sure Tivo has put a gag on their employees until everyone understands what the entire situation is. For new customers the new pricing plan is simple, for existing it is a little hairy on who gets grandfathered in and depends on what the terms said when you signed up. It is better for Tivo to sit down and outline with all employees how this will work with us exisitng customers then having Pony (or some other Tivo employee) come out and convery the wrong message. Just give it time.


This makes some sense. Of course, you have to wonder why they didn't noodle through these possibilities _before_ rolling out the new plans. It's not terribly tough to do. There are only a few scenarios here with existing subscribers (lifetime, month-to-month, existing commitment) that it's not hard to do. The question now is only "how much outrage is there, and what should we do about it?"


----------



## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> They used to. Now they give the hardware away for free (ST) and you are paying for serivce. It is like getting a free cell phone and only paying for the service. You can get the basic phone (ST 80 hr S2) or you can pay nominal fees and upgrade your hardware.


Cell phone companies give free or discounted hardware in exchange for signing a long term agreement with the company. You can bring your own phone and sign up for service with that company without a contract. I don't see that option here.


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## Einselen

DrewTivo said:


> This makes some sense. Of course, you have to wonder why they didn't noodle through these possibilities _before_ rolling out the new plans. It's not terribly tough to do. There are only a few scenarios here with existing subscribers (lifetime, month-to-month, existing commitment) that it's not hard to do. The question now is only "how much outrage is there, and what should we do about it?"


Wouldn't surprise me if now or earlier today there was a meeting of the minds. What is happening in the meeting is all speculation besides those few that were present. Sometimes it is hard to do the whatifs until pointed out to you, all depends on how new wording/terms or formed, who was sitting in, etc. It may seem perfect when you get done with it, but when fresh minds see it then they can help point out things to answer.


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> You can bring your own phone and sign up for service with that company without a contract. I don't see that option here.


As long as the phone is unlocked and/or compatable with their network.

Recently, there was never an option for you to bring a box to Tivo and ask for service with no contract. You had to at least enter in to a 1yr agreement.


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## Gai-jin

Eh? You must be new to tivo. The 1 year contract requirement was just added earlier this year.


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## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> Eh? You must be new here. The 1 year contract requirement was just added earlier this year.


I forgot about that back in March or April when they changed the pricing options then they added the stipulation of the 1 yr agreement on the 12.95/month and 6.95/month options.


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## Gai-jin

In my opinion, it seems tivo should offer either a significantly discounted price to those who own the hardware outright, or offer subscription with no contract. 

And do away with the rebates. Then there's no worry about whether a purchased box was subsidized or not.


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> In my opinion, it seems tivo should offer either a significantly discounted price to those who own the hardware outright, or offer subscription with no contract.


That would defeat the new pricing plan. The plan is to keep people locked in and so Tivo can count on guarntee rev. Also with the old pricing plan every year you could get a new box and service (assuming you had a lifetime box or some other qualifying box with service) for $83.40. Now people will keep the box and service longer.


----------



## CharlesH

Gai-jin said:


> Cell phone companies give free or discounted hardware in exchange for signing a long term agreement with the company. You can bring your own phone and sign up for service with that company without a contract.


Depends on the cell phone company. With Verizon Wireless, bringing your own phone does not eliminate the need for a service contract. Other than going PrePay, there is *no* way to activate service on VZW without a contract, and you don't pay any less by bringing your own phone. Nor do you pay any less after you have had the phone for a while, and any subsidy on the phone purchase has been recovered through the monthly service fee.


----------



## DrewTivo

CharlesH said:


> Nor do you pay any less after you have had the phone for a while, and any subsidy on the phone purchase has been recovered.


They'll give you/sell you a new phone, though.

As I noted above, with the new arrangement, there's basically no reason not to get a new box every year, at least if it's free. This stings only the people who buy the upgraded boxes (DT/HD), who won't.

Rest assured, if they won't give me the 12.95 rate when my 1-year agreement is up, I will order a new box and ditch the old one.


----------



## Bytez

And no one can guarantee that Tivo won't raise prices within the next 3 years.


----------



## timckelley

Bytez said:


> And no one can guarantee that Tivo won't raise prices within the next 3 years.


Then I guess you better lock yourself into a 3 year contract to protect yourself from the next rate hike.


----------



## Gai-jin

And yet, doesn't it seem like it would be more costly to them to replace your box every year than it would be for them to let you keep your existing, fully functional, equipment?


----------



## Einselen

Bytez said:


> And no one can guarantee that Tivo won't raise prices within the next 3 years.


You can say that with any company which you pay monthly. That is why it is nice to get into contracts. My prepaid Tivo is not affected by the until long time down the road. If you sign up today and get 12.95/month for the next three years and Tivo changes it to only have one price option and that is $21.95/month, you have to commit to one year and then after that you go month to month well guess what, you lucked out and are paying a whole lot cheaper, saving tons of money in those three years.

Like I said though, you can say that with any company that you pay monthly. Blockbuster online, netflix, cell phone bill, cable bill, etc.


----------



## Bytez

but at least you could cancel when they commit breach of contract


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> And yet, doesn't it seem like it would be more costly to them to replace your box every year than it would be for them to let you keep your existing, fully functional, equipment?


Yes, that is why the new pricing plan. You can still get 12.95/month or 6.95/month like they originally had, but you have to commit for three years. Like I said before, under the new plan each year you could get a new box and service for $83.40. Now that is not possible.

As far as what someone said a few post up about getting a new box after a year let me tackle that. Oct 31 you get box (free A/R I think they were, not sure, but there were deals of free box and 1 yr service) and pay 12.95/month for one year. After that year your box then goes up to the then monthly rate of 1 yr service agreement (currently 19.95) and you go month by month. Now in order to get that 12.95/month you have to commit for three years and might as well get a new box then (if offered).

Before you could change out your box every year and you still can, but if you play that game you will have to pay 19.95/month. The new pricing plan prevents people from the abuse capable from the before plan.


----------



## Einselen

Bytez said:


> but at least you could cancel when they commit breach of contract


There would be no break of contract. If you sign up and they change the plan the next day you get the plan you signed up for. I don't think any company would bump you up unless you specifically ask for it.


----------



## Stormspace

I've sorta stayed out of the conversation until now. Basically I wanted to sort through the information and mull on it. 

The only way to look at it is that TiVo is raising prices. They sort of thrown devotees a bone by offering existing rates with a three year commitment but like many others here I don't know if an SD TiVo will have a three year life at this point. Not that the device won't last that long, but that the landscape will change significantly that the usability of an SD TiVo will decline. Also with the new pricing schemes the residual value of a TiVo without lifetime has declined as well. 

Ultimately you have to wonder what TiVo was thinking about when they did this. The SA TiVo's already cost more to operate than a cable DVR that supports HD, yet they've decided for some unknown reason that pricing themselves even further out of the market is the answer. The only logical conclusion to make is that TiVo does not see their DVR in a growth market so they've decided to hunker down and make as much as they can from existing subs in an effort to reach profitability. 

Fortunately for me I'm locked in with the lower rates until next October when my S2DT goes on a non-bundled monthly contract, so I have almost a year to see if TiVo will come to their senses. For those that just bought one and have to commit to 3 years I feel for ya.


----------



## JYoung

Very disappointed here.
I have lifetime on my units but they've gone and made this a much harder sell to new users.


----------



## Einselen

Stormspace said:


> I don't know if an SD TiVo will have a three year life at this point.


Doesn't matter, the service agreement is tied to the account and not the box. If you want to upgrade to S3 a week into having the agreement you can.



Stormspace said:


> Ultimately you have to wonder what TiVo was thinking about when they did this. The SA TiVo's already cost more to operate than a cable DVR that supports HD, yet they've decided for some unknown reason that pricing themselves even further out of the market is the answer.


Read megazone's blog, they actually priced themselves more into the market and made it cheaper on most plans.


----------



## timckelley

On the bright side, if we people who have lifetime on our boxes can probably command a nice price if we try to sell them.

But I have no intention of selling mine


----------



## MikeMar

timckelley said:


> On the bright side, if we people who have lifetime on our boxes can probably command a nice price if we try to sell them.
> 
> But I have no intention of selling mine


i really wish i ponyed up the money and bought a few lifetimes 

oh well


----------



## timckelley

MikeMar said:


> i really wish i ponyed up the money and bought a few lifetimes
> 
> oh well


My wife told me last spring when they announced the then upcoming demise of lifetime, that I should have bought a third lifetime box. But I'm thankful for the two I have; I really don't think I need a third.

At the time, people were snagging up the last of the lifetime gift subs from Best Buy, but they were few and hard to find. But now that I think of it, there was nothing to stop the speculators from buying up a bunch of actual TiVos and then lifetiming them all just before the option went away. I wonder if anybody did that? I wonder how much these speculators could be making right now by selling them on ebay?

Thinking about the market value of lifetimes, they have these nice advantages:
1) Renders you immune to all price increases, some of which you're seeing right now
2) Could use it for the promotion going on right now where you can transfer a lifetime to a series 3.
3) Who knows what other developments will happen in the next few years, that a lifetime could turn out being useful for?


----------



## Stormspace

Einselen said:


> Doesn't matter, the service agreement is tied to the account and not the box. If you want to upgrade to S3 a week into having the agreement you can.
> 
> Read megazone's blog, they actually priced themselves more into the market and made it cheaper on most plans.


Ok, read mega's post, however it's all about me, right?  I still don't know how it's going to affect me in a year when my box goes off the bundled 19.95 rate. Also with the advertised 6.00 discount for msd, does that mean that my two 6.95 boxes now go to 12.95? I'm going to have to read up some more on this and become better acquainted with it before I call TiVo and have a "come to jesus" meeting.


----------



## mportuesi

Einselen said:


> Read megazone's blog, they actually priced themselves more into the market and made it cheaper on most plans.


You can actually save money in a good amount of situations *IF* you are willing to make a three-year commitment *AND* pay up front. Tivo has heavily tilted the pricing structure to favor long-term, prepaid plans.

The megazone blog post points out the cost savings, but glosses over the increased commitment. Many people aren't willing to make a three year commitment, especially for an SD unit. I certainly won't.


----------



## kido




----------



## 1283

The TiVo is upset because it doesn't like the beer.


----------



## Einselen

Stormspace said:


> Ok, read mega's post, however it's all about me, right?


I thought it was about me!

I have to say I do like this dialog. There is no really right or wrong answer cause you are gonna piss of someone in any method you do. I just have faith that in the long run this will all work out and make sense.


----------



## davezatz

Gai-jin said:


> Eh? You must be new to tivo. The 1 year contract requirement was just added earlier this year.


It was added September, 2005.


----------



## Einselen

davezatz said:


> It was added September, 2005.


Was it really? My mind is going on me and that isn't good. I am too young to have that happening already.


----------



## ScubaCat3

timckelley said:


> Then I guess you better lock yourself into a 3 year contract to protect yourself from the next rate hike.


Or, make me a sweet offer on one of my prepaid lifetime service cards


----------



## Einselen

ScubaCat3 said:


> Or, make me a sweet offer on one of my prepaid lifetime service cards


$5!


----------



## 1283

$5.01


----------



## Einselen

c3 said:


> $5.01


Dang! Too rich for my blood! Why do people always outbid me at the last second?


----------



## mfrns0123

TivoPony Just posted this....//www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4557822#post4557822


----------



## TiVoPony

mfrns0123 said:


> TivoPony Just posted this....//www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4557822#post4557822


Yep, sorry about that...I grabbed the wrong thread when I was posting.

Here's the text of what I posted:

Hey guys,

We are working on an FAQ to answer some of the questions raised here, but it's not ready to post yet.

I can point out a couple of things that a few of you have already hit upon here though.

For one, our pricing has gotten simpler - retail and online have exactly the same pricing structure now. The number of plans was cut in half as a result. Less confusing than before.

And, as has been pointed out by others here, overall prices have gone down for the majority of the plans we offer. The only exception is if you want a free box, but don't want to sign up for more than 12 months of service. Despite some of the alarmist headlines (well, I saw one), this is a price decrease for most everyone signing up for TiVo service.

And we made the box more accessible - you can get one for no money upfront. It's true that if you want the best service pricing, you have to sign up for a longer period of time. That's pretty intuitive, most things work that way.

And finally - nothing has changed for any existing customers. You have the same pricing you did when you woke up yesterday morning. Same plans, same deal.

So...consistency in retail & online, lower costs to subscribers overall, and no upfront costs. And existing subs still have the same plans they did before.

We're looking to drive TiVo into more homes. If the changes we're putting in place are scary & make you doubt what we're doing...hold on. Take a closer look. It's not as bad as the headlines read.

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## supasta

TiVoPony said:


> And finally - nothing has changed for any existing customers. You have the same pricing you did when you woke up yesterday morning. Same plans, same deal.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


That much is all I needed to hear, thanks. I will look forward to the FAQ and some more investigating before making any more referrals, however. (Just so that I have my facts straight for those I refer with questions.)


----------



## dbtom

Tivo is obviously very worried about people leaving the service (churn). They addressed the problem in their latest quarterly report. I find it very interesting that they say that Tivo lacks competitive service features.

Unfortunately when you lock people in, you will inevitability scare away potential buyers. It's hard to justify a 3 year service plan for a DVR when the cable companies don't make you commit to anything. Tivo must have internal numbers that have them really worried.

http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1088825/000119312506188785/d10q.htm



> TiVo-Owned Churn Rate per Month. Management reviews this metric, and believes it may be useful to investors, in order to evaluate our ability to retain existing TiVo-Owned subscriptions (including both monthly and product lifetime subscriptions) by providing services that are competitive in the market. Management believes factors such as service enhancements, service commitments, higher customer satisfaction, and improved customer support may improve this metric. *Conversely, management believes factors such as increased competition, lack of competitive service features, and increased price sensitivity may cause our TiVo-Owned Churn Rate per month to increase.*
> 
> We define the TiVo-Owned Churn Rate per month as the total TiVo-Owned subscription cancellations in the period divided by the Average TiVo-Owned subscriptions for the period (including both monthly and product lifetime subscriptions), which then is divided by the number of months in the period. We calculate Average TiVo-Owned subscriptions for the period by adding the average TiVo-Owned subscriptions for each month and dividing by the number of months in the period. We calculate the average TiVo-Owned subscriptions for each month by adding the beginning and ending subscriptions for the month and dividing by two. We are not aware of any uniform standards for calculating churn and caution that our presentation may not be consistent with that of other companies.


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## ZeoTiVo

dbtom said:


> Tivo is obviously very worried about people leaving the service (churn). They addressed the problem in their latest quarterly report. I find it very interesting that they say that Tivo lacks competitive service features.


they did not say that TiVo lacks competitive features - they simply described the factors of the metric "customer churn". Basically they were defining the six sigma reasons behind introducing new features into the software adn spending the R&D money to do so.

If I had highlighted the sentence before the one you highlighted would it mean the opposite that TiVo thinks they have competitive service features. No - as I said they are just definingt he factors behind customer churn with the implication they would act on those factors as needed to reduce churn.


----------



## ah30k

ZeoTiVo said:


> they did not say that TiVo lacks competitive features - they simply described the factors of the metric "customer churn".


uh... the way I read the bold statement they said they believe lack of competitive features will increase churn for TiVo. How is that not admitting lack of features?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

ah30k said:


> uh... the way I read the bold statement they said they believe lack of competitive features will increase churn for TiVo. How is that not admitting lack of features?


well consider this highlighting then


from the filing said:


> *Management believes factors such as *service enhancements, service commitments, higher customer satisfaction, and improved customer support may improve this metric. *Conversely, management believes factors such as *increased competition, lack of competitive service features, and increased price sensitivity may cause our TiVo-Owned Churn Rate per month to increase.


they clearly are not making a statement as to whcih way they see it currently. Just describing the factors they will take into account as the watch the churn metric.


----------



## ah30k

zeo, perhaps you are correct. It's an odd statement though. Its like saying that factors that would improve chances of you giving me a job would be my punctuality, skills and handsome looks while factors that would decrease chances would be my terrible body odor. Not saying that I have terrible body odor, just that if I did it would be a factor.


----------



## dbtom

ZeoTiVo said:


> they did not say that TiVo lacks competitive features - they simply described the factors of the metric "customer churn". Basically they were defining the six sigma reasons behind introducing new features into the software adn spending the R&D money to do so.
> 
> If I had highlighted the sentence before the one you highlighted would it mean the opposite that TiVo thinks they have competitive service features. No - as I said they are just definingt he factors behind customer churn with the implication they would act on those factors as needed to reduce churn.


Fair point. Though I would note that the #1 reason listed as a way to improve churn is "service enhancements" indicating they are doing something to address competitive feature imbalances. #2 way to improve churn-- service commitments!


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## ChuckyBox

ah30k said:


> zeo, perhaps you are correct. It's an odd statement though. Its like saying that factors that would improve chances of you giving me a job would be my punctuality, skills and handsome looks while factors that would decrease chances would be my terrible body odor. Not saying that I have terrible body odor, just that if I did it would be a factor.


This sort of language is just SOP for filings with the SEC. One needs to be upfront about the issues and potential issues or risk investor lawsuits. This is a "management discussion" section, so they are just describing the things they are keeping an eye on.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

dbtom said:


> Fair point. Though I would note that the #1 reason listed as a way to improve churn is "service enhancements" indicating they are doing something to address competitive feature imbalances. #2 way to improve churn-- service commitments!


yes the wording is odd and most likely deliberately vaugue - but since TiVo has TTG , MRV, KIDZONE and HME for SD DVRs and is working on that for S3 - I would give them competitive features over cable company DVRs and then they have quality and ease of use factors over PC based DVRs.

Still I do agree that all in all TiVo can not sit still and certainly that wording may be their way af saying they need to get those features on the S3 to make sure Subscribers stay with TiVo. It is all interpretation but I would just not say for sure this means TiVo thinks they lack competitive features.


----------



## davezatz

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes the wording is odd and most likely deliberately vaugue - but since TiVo has TTG , MRV, KIDZONE and HME for SD DVRs and is working on that for S3 - I would give them competitive features over cable company DVRs and then they have quality and ease of use factors over PC based DVRs.


MRV is no longer unique. Dish has had a variation for awhile with an RF remote, Verizon is currently offering it. Moxi is trying to push the software through their cable partners and I assume Moto is pitching the Verizon solution to Comcast and others. Moto and Moxi both have HME features ready to go, they just need buy-in/permission from their partners. AT&T supposedly has a HME variation already deployed. Moto has a form of TTG ready in getting shows onto memory cards for portable playback and Dish partnered with Archos to offload recorded content maybe a year ago.

TiVo still has the edge in terms of consumer education, a product that has all these features deployed, and having a superior interface. But the competition is catching up and at lower rates...

http://www.sbc.com/gen/general?pid=7919


> How do I access my AT&T Homezone receiver remotely?
> View your Program Guide, schedule and manage DVR recordings and movie downloads, or browse your photo library from any broadband-connected PC.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> TiVo still has the edge in terms of consumer education, a product that has all these features deployed, and having a superior interface. But the competition is catching up and at lower rates...


yes - this is what I was referring to with the added text of "Still TiVo can not stand still" But as you point out these are not deployed features and rely on the MSOs and other partners to allow the features to be deployed. The whole reason I went with a 3rd party DVR in the first place - just one company to make the decisions. Now it seems that will be a premium decision instead of a low cost decision as we have been spoiled with in the last 2 years or so.


----------



## Dajad

TiVoPony said:


> Despite some of the alarmist headlines (well, I saw one), this is a price decrease for most everyone signing up for TiVo service.


Pony, I know you have to toe the company line and make the best of it but this is most certainly NOT a price decrease for new customers. Mostly everyone I ever tried to get to purchase a TiVo baulked at even the life-time fee let alone monthly fees.

When TiVo eliminated the lifetime option you significantly lowered the ability for most to give TiVo as a gift. I gave several TiVo's with lifetime subs as gifts over the years while lifetime was an option for me to give with the box. Who gives a gift that requires the recipient to make payments on for the rest of the product's life?

And, for those very people that I have been able to convince to even consider purchasing a TiVo after lifetime was eliminated, they wanted the ability to test the waters for a few months or so before committing, if ever, to a long term service plan. By increasing the amount they'd have to pay from $12.95 a month to $19.95 PLUS a one year commitment to boot, you just eliminated that as an option for prospective customers and my ability to help sell for you. Yes, after rebates, hardware prices are lowered. But, for most people hardware costs are sunk - what they care most about is how much is this damn thing going to cost me every month/year for the rest of its lifetime!

You took away my ability to recommend the product to new customers at all. To get anywhere near a fair and competitive price the new customer now has to sign up for three years. When almost all of your competitors offer substantially lower prices with NO need to purchase a box let alone commit to a 3 year service plan.

TiVo has INDEED raised the price for every prospective new purchaser because, whether TiVo acknowledges it or not, having to COMMIT to three years is a HUGE additional hidden cost/ psychological barrier, that is significantly more relevant to most people than simply the amount charged to a credit card each month.



TiVoPony said:


> And finally - nothing has changed for any existing customers. You have the same pricing you did when you woke up yesterday morning. Same plans, same deal.


I'm an existing customer Pony. And I most certainly do not have the same pricing I had yesterday. I am always considering new TiVo purchases. I just purchased an S3 with my grandfathered right (thank God for that). I've been considering purchasing an S2 to work along side it. I would have bought an S2 a long time ago had there been a lifetime option. But, after a year of digesting that I was about ready to suck it up and paying your $6.95 monthly fee. But TiVo just increased the price that I, an existing customer, was willing to pay. I will NEVER be willing to commit to a 3 year deal - period. So, it looks like I'd now have to pay $13.95 a month for my second unit. So, you just increased the price I'd have to pay to purchase a satellite S2.

This is most certainly NOT the same plan nor the same deal I had available to me last week.

I have an Xbox 360 and will be upgrading to the latest highest end version of Vista with Media Center in January. Microsoft doesn't charge monthly fees for guide data. I haven't evaluated that product enough to say definitively whether I'll use it or not, but prior to this price change I had never given it a second thought. Now, I think it is most probable that this will be my second PVR. Especially now that Microsoft is launching the Xbox 360 movie/tv show download service that I had such high hopes that TiVo would do first with TiVocast!



TiVoPony said:


> We're looking to drive TiVo into more homes. If the changes we're putting in place are scary & make you doubt what we're doing...hold on. Take a closer look. It's not as bad as the headlines read.


Then TiVo is completely kidding itself if you and TiVo truly believe that this pricing structure will drive TiVo into more homes. I can't help but come to the exact opposite conclusion. Time will tell. Yes, TiVo is a superior service over its competitors. For new customers that aren't shy about 3 year commitments, they will buy it. But don't kid yourself. NOTHING about this pricing change will help pull in the vast majority of new users. In my opinion, this new pricing model will scare many more away!

Don't get me wrong Pony. I still love TiVo, the product and I know you are only doing your job. But, as a long time user of TiVo and someone pretty savvy about this industry, I think this decision is going to not only hurt your existing and prospective TiVo customers, but TiVo's long term bottom line.

...Dale


----------



## DCIFRTHS

TiVoPony said:


> ... And we made the box more accessible - you can get one for no money upfront. It's true that if you want the best service pricing, you have to sign up for a longer period of time. That's pretty intuitive, most things work that way. ...


The problem with that logic is that *your* competition does not price their product this way. You can't compare TiVo to a cell phone. Compare it to the cable company DVR. It's $10.00, month to month where I live, and that's the HD version.


----------



## kido

DCIFRTHS said:


> The problem with that logic is that *your* competition does not price their product this way. You can't compare TiVo to a cell phone. Compare it to the cable company DVR. It's $10.00, month to month where I live, and that's the HD version.


They don't force you to upgrade to digital cable? You don't really think that you are not paying for the cost of that DVR at some point, do you? It's like bragging about how cheap the shoes are down at the bowling alley.

For me, I receive standard cable + OTA HD on my S3, which saves me about $30 per month over the comparable HD DVR digital cable package. When I get my cable cards, I'll be saving only $28.50 per month. Not to mention that I actually own my DVR.


----------



## 1283

kido said:


> They don't force you to upgrade to digital cable? You don't really think that you are not paying for the cost of that DVR at some point, do you?


Exactly. They cannot rent out the HD DVR for $10 without charging for other things. I'm paying $15 limited basic (with local HD channels) + $1.50 for the second CableCard. In order to get the Comcast DVR in my area, I have to pay $70 for $15 limited basic, $35 expanded basic, $10 digital classic, and $10 DVR.


----------



## davezatz

Where I live, Comcast requires you to have digital cable if you want G4, NFL Network, DIY, Military, BBC, etc - those channels are not available via their analog packages, so it's a sunk cost for many. In certain metropolitan areas, digital is required and the only type of cable you can get - supposedly they're moving us that way too.


----------



## timckelley

Same here - I would have to get digital cable to get the Time Warner DVR. As it is, I subscribe only to analog cable and use my two TiVos.


----------



## samo

Dale, I have to disagree with you on one point. You may find it surprising coming from the long time TiVo user who just got read of last 2 SA TiVos a half a year ago (I still have 2 R-10s so I'm not completely TiVoless ). I honestly believe that free TiVo with $300 pre-pay for 3 years is not that bad. It is right in line with "disposable" electronics price. For example, less than 2 years ago I paid $350 for DVDR. Just recently it broke and I replaced it with another better model. I'm used to paying relatively small price for the electronics that I know will break or become obsolete in a few years. Things like digital cameras, camcorders and game stations come to mind. So if you see a $300 prepay as one time fee and assume that you will replace your TiVo in 3 years or less - then it is not that bad of the deal.


----------



## handoverfist

Dajad said:


> ****Originally Posted by TiVoPony
> We're looking to drive TiVo into more homes. If the changes we're putting in place are scary & make you doubt what we're doing...hold on. Take a closer look. It's not as bad as the headlines read.*****
> 
> Then TiVo is completely kidding itself if you and TiVo truly believe that this pricing structure will drive TiVo into more homes. I can't help but come to the exact opposite conclusion. Time will tell. Yes, TiVo is a superior service over its competitors. For new customers that aren't shy about 3 year commitments, they will buy it. But don't kid yourself. NOTHING about this pricing change will help pull in the vast majority of new users. In my opinion, this new pricing model will scare many more away!


I agree 100% with what you are saying Dajad. My friend has been telling me about tivo now for a while since he's gotten it. He told me what he was paying and such so the other day I went and was looking at the different boxes, then looked at the pricing. I have to say it is a complete turn off for me. For one, I am not going to lock myself into a 3 yr commitment paying by the month, or 2 yr commitment to get the same reasonable price that he is. And I really don't like the fact that I can't register it for life because I was also wanting to get my parents one for christmas so they could throw away that old vhs recorder. Don't hate me, but now I'm now looking at replay tv.... I'm sorry but yes I would rather go with an inferrior product, be loyal to them with a pricing plan that doesn't lock me in to their service. At least with replay I will be able to give it off as a gift to my parents... thanks a lot tivo


----------



## 1283

If you want lifetime units, they're still available on eBay.


----------



## handoverfist

c3 said:


> If you want lifetime units, they're still available on eBay.


I know this, but why would I want to limit myself to ebay? See what I'm saying... So that is not helpful at all. This might sound whiny, but I'm not going to support a company, where I had to buy a product option that I wanted off of ebay.


----------



## kido

Dajad said:


> I have an Xbox 360 and will be upgrading to the latest highest end version of Vista with Media Center in January. Microsoft doesn't charge monthly fees for guide data. I haven't evaluated that product enough to say definitively whether I'll use it or not, but prior to this price change I had never given it a second thought. Now, I think it is most probable that this will be my second PVR. Especially now that Microsoft is launching the Xbox 360 movie/tv show download service that I had such high hopes that TiVo would do first with TiVocast!


Just so you know, this is from the Windows XP Media Center Edition Electronic Programming Guide Terms of Service Version 3.0



> *Subscription Fees and Other Charges.* The EPG is provided to you free of charge. As noted above with respect to changes to the terms of this Agreement, Microsoft reserves the right to change prices, or institute new charges for the EPG, at any time with thirty (30) days' notice to you. Furthermore, you are responsible for the costs of establishing an Internet connection to connect to the EPG. This includes fees paid to an Internet service provider, any long distance telephone toll charges associated with connecting to the Internet via such Internet service provider, and any equipment charges.


So, it is possible you may end up paying a monthly fee to use your MCE as a DVR.
They also do not vouch for the content of the guide information, so if your MCE records the wrong thing, it isn't Microsoft's fault.


----------



## Fofer

kido said:


> They also do not vouch for the content of the guide information, so if your MCE records the wrong thing, it isn't Microsoft's fault.


If my TiVo records the wrong thing, is it TiVo's fault?


----------



## kido

Fofer said:


> If my TiVo records the wrong thing, is it TiVo's fault?


Actually, the TiVo Service Agreement doesn't exclude themselves from being at fault like the Microsoft agreement does, so yes, it looks like it could be TiVo's fault.


----------



## davezatz

kido said:


> Actually, the TiVo Service Agreement doesn't exclude themselves from being at fault like the Microsoft agreement does, so yes, it looks like it could be TiVo's fault.


We're just getting silly now. Do we really need to go down this path? Every corporate entity will draft all sorts of documents to protect themselves. It's typical and expected.

http://www.tivo.com/5.11.2.asp



> YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE TIVO SERVICE IS PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS. TIVO MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT THE TIVO SERVICE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, ALLOW YOU TO RECORD, VIEW OR TRANSFER ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAMMING, OR THAT USE OF THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE, OR ERROR-FREE; NOR DOES TIVO MAKE ANY WARRANTY AS TO THE ACCURACY OR RELIABILITY OF ANY INFORMATION OBTAINED THROUGH THE TIVO SERVICE (INCLUDING THIRD PARTY CONTENT), THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE CORRECTED OR THAT THE TIVO DVR OR TIVO SERVICE WILL BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SPECIFIC HARDWARE OR SERVICE. FURTHER, TIVO DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THE TIVO SERVICE OR THE TIVO SERVERS THAT PROVIDE YOU WITH DATA AND CONTENT ARE FREE OF VIRUSES OR OTHER HARMFUL COMPONENTS.


----------



## 1283

handoverfist said:


> I know this, but why would I want to limit myself to ebay? See what I'm saying... So that is not helpful at all. This might sound whiny, but I'm not going to support a company, where I had to buy a product option that I wanted off of ebay.


You're the one that brought up Replay TV, which is no longer manufactured.


----------



## kido

davezatz,

You are correct. I withdraw the point.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

kido said:


> They don't force you to upgrade to digital cable? You don't really think that you are not paying for the cost of that DVR at some point, do you? It's like bragging about how cheap the shoes are down at the bowling alley.


Cablevision leases you a digital box if subscribe to their service. If you are an existing customer, you give them your analog box, and they exchange it for a digital box at no additional cost. Cablevision does not charge extra for the HD tier either.

Of course the box is being paid for - all hardware is paid for by the consumer. We pay for the data center, their phone system, the coax cable, the fiber optic cable, the staplers on their desks, and every other piece of hardware the company owns or pays for. Is there any aspect of any product, or service, that you buy or use that you *don't* pay for? How else would they stay in business? I'm not sure where I said Cablevision was giving away DVRs for free, but maybe you can show me 

BTW, I am a huge TiVo fan, and I have so many TiVos it embarrassing. Additionally, I have one S3, and am about to buy a second.

Bragging? Why do you think I am bragging? I am just pointing out that to lump a DVR into the cell phone pricing scheme, as justification for locking in customers, is a very weak point. Just because other businesses do it, doesn't make it the right plan for TiVo - *especially* when all of your main competition is *not locking their customers in.*

I pay every time I go through a toll booth. Should the cable company charge me every time I turn on my TV? Why not? That's they way _they_ do it.

Stupid example? I agree, but kind of inline with the bowling shoes comment...



> For me, I receive standard cable + OTA HD on my S3, which saves me about $30 per month over the comparable HD DVR digital cable package. When I get my cable cards, I'll be saving only $28.50 per month. Not to mention that I actually own my DVR.


I get no OTA in my building. None. I can't even get FM. I'm not exaggerating. Even if I did, I would subscribe to cable or a competitor's service, because I like the pay channels. To each his own (no sarcasm intended).

EDIT: I left out a word 
EDIT 2: I added "bold".


----------



## DCIFRTHS

davezatz said:


> Where I live, Comcast requires you to have digital cable if you want G4, NFL Network, DIY, Military, BBC, etc - those channels are not available via their analog packages, so it's a sunk cost for many. In certain metropolitan areas, digital is required and the only type of cable you can get - supposedly they're moving us that way too.


Digital is the only way to go. All CCs will be digital eventually. I think it's criminal to charge extra for it.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

c3 said:


> If you want lifetime units, they're still available on eBay.


At ridiculously inflated prices.


----------



## Dajad

samo said:


> Dale, I have to disagree with you on one point. You may find it surprising coming from the long time TiVo user who just got read of last 2 SA TiVos a half a year ago (I still have 2 R-10s so I'm not completely TiVoless ). I honestly believe that free TiVo with $300 pre-pay for 3 years is not that bad. It is right in line with "disposable" electronics price. For example, less than 2 years ago I paid $350 for DVDR. Just recently it broke and I replaced it with another better model. I'm used to paying relatively small price for the electronics that I know will break or become obsolete in a few years. Things like digital cameras, camcorders and game stations come to mind. So if you see a $300 prepay as one time fee and assume that you will replace your TiVo in 3 years or less - then it is not that bad of the deal.


The problem with the $300 prepay is its NOT once. When three years are up I'll have to pay it again. I only just last weekend disposed of my first S1 (well, I didn't really dispose of it, I gave it to my sister). That one served me for 7 years. So, I"m looking at an expectation of, what $700 for the one unit. But you know what, if TIVo still had lifetime as an option I'd STILL be using that S1 today because I would have bought a new S3, bought a whole new lifetime sub and kept it running side by side with my other S1 and my new S3.

So, the realistic life of a TiVo in my world is well beyond 7 years - more like 10. Even though it can record only 30 hours of low-quality shows, it works great for overflow and conflicts. Take last night, I have 5 PVR tuners available to me (one on my second TiVo S1, 2 on my 8300 HD PVR - going back at the end of the month, and 2 on my S3). And you know what, all five were recording all night ... I was switching back and forth between 5 networks as I savored the agonizingly slow Democratic victory starting at 7 pm till 3:00 a.m. when I went to bed with a smile on my face. So, don't be telling me the TiVo only has a 3 year life span! 

Your digital camera, camcorder analogy doesn't work. I don't pay monthly fees to use them. And, I can choose to upgrade to a newer model camera or keep using my camera forever without financial repercussions. I don't have to pay Cannon another $300 to keep using my Digital Elf for 3 more years. If have the same issue with monthly subscription fees for music services. I'd rather pay more, on average, per month for music I buy and know that I own rather than know that if I ever stop paying the monthly ransom I loose it all.

Again, Samo, you are the type of customer TiVo wants, the kind of person that doesn't mind monthly recurrnig fees. I grew up in a poor family. I do well now (hey, I'm a lawyer) but somehow the concept of buying a product, any product, with an open ended, non-capped financial commitment bothers me. So much so that I don't "subscribe" to anything other than the necessities of life - PERIOD!

I know I"m not the only one. I know my experience trying to "sell" TiVo to well over 100 people since 1999. IT was a hell of a tough sell under the older pricing models. Because I know I wouldn't purchase the product with this pricing model, I couldn't sell it.

As a technology lawyer, programmer and lifelong tech geek, I respect and give my business to companies that are commited to constant, never ending improvement. When they do, I stay loyal (as I have to TiVo all these years). I do not respect any company or industry that keeps customers by monopoly, duopoly or pricing strategies that keep me locked in due to pre-paid sunk costs.

When a company moves to a pricing model designed solely to "lock in customers" rather retaining them through constantly impressing them with their product and service - that says something to me about the company, their management and their future.

...Dale


----------



## Fofer

The funny thing is, in order to compete in today's landscape, I'd have expected TiVo to _lower_ their monthly subscription fee. I simply cannot imagine trying to sell this pricing scheme to a new customer. I'd be embarrassed to even try.


----------



## 1283

Dajad said:


> So, the realistic life of a TiVo in my world is well beyond 7 years - more like 10.


That's why TiVo canceled it because their financial model for lifetime service was 4 years. I'm all for lifetime service, even with the available MSD rate. However, plenty of people have been paying monthly for many years.


----------



## ufo4sale

Fofer said:


> The funny thing is, in order to compete in today's landscape, I'd have expected TiVo to _lower_ their monthly subscription fee. I simply cannot imagine trying to sell this pricing scheme to a new customer. I'd be embarrassed to even try.


Then don't try to sell TiVo to anyone else. I gave up when the change the pricing the first time around. TiVo doesn't need are help in selling their units. There doing a great job on their own.


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## Dajad

c3, your analysis fails to factor in that I have purchased 3 TiVos already and I also have an SFA 8300 PVR. TiVo can, and has, made more money from me by providing a fantastic product and getting me to buy more of them.

Additionally, I have advoacted here from day one (October 1999) that TiVo should change its business model to be less reliant on guide data subscriptions and move to a transactional model by, among other things, making downloadable content available thorugh TiVo that I want and am willing to pay for. This is precisely what Microsoft, Sony and Apple are about to do in the next few months. 7 years later, where is TiVo?

It's not the consumer's fault that they have not been able to implement a business model that is profitable and competitive at the same time.

...Dale


----------



## samo

> The problem with the $300 prepay is its NOT once. When three years are up I'll have to pay it again.
> .....
> So, don't be telling me the TiVo only has a 3 year life span!


I agree with your logic. But my fundamental assumption was IF YOU ARE WILLING to trash you TiVo in 3 years or less, then $300 for 3 years of use is not bad. I know exactly what you are talking about. One of my SA TiVos that sits in a closet now is S1 I bought Sep 1999. It works just fine and if I needed an extra DVR I would be using it. But I like new toys so as of now I have 2 R10s (4 tuners), 1 R-15 (2 tuners), 4 50X DishDVRs (4 tuners) and just recently I got myself Vip 622 and HR20 for HiDef. If I had to pay monthly fees for my DishDVrs or extra fees for DTV DVRs I most likely would drop some of them, I really don't need that many tuners. Even for a guy like me who doesn't mind to pay monthly there is line I don't want to cross (main reason I dropped 2 SA TiVos was $20/month saving on TiVo sub and $50/month on cable sub). 


> Take last night, I have 5 PVR tuners available to me (one on my second TiVo S1, 2 on my 8300 HD PVR - going back at the end of the month, and 2 on my S3). And you know what, all five were recording all night ... I was switching back and forth between 5 networks as I savored the agonizingly slow Democratic victory starting at 7 pm till 3:00 a.m. when I went to bed with a smile on my face.


Again, I know what you are talking about - I had 7 tuners going last night. 
I have no idea how people manage with just one single or dual tuner DVR. For the last 5-6 years I never had a chance to evaluate conflict resolution capabilities of different models DVRs I had.


> I know I"m not the only one. I know my experience trying to "sell" TiVo to well over 100 people since 1999. IT was a hell of a tough sell under the older pricing models. Because I know I wouldn't purchase the product with this pricing model, I couldn't sell it.


Your record is much better than my. NONE of my friends bought TiVo for exactly same reason - they didn't understand why anybody would want to pay for the recorder and then pay monthly for TV Guide and ability to record TV. Most of them have some kind of DVR by now, but none of them has TiVo.


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## Toeside

Fofer said:


> The funny thing is, in order to compete in today's landscape, I'd have expected TiVo to _lower_ their monthly subscription fee. I simply cannot imagine trying to sell this pricing scheme to a new customer. I'd be embarrassed to even try.


I agree.

I recommended the DirecTiVos to many friends and families, and they are all very happy. When the Series3 was announced and we were awaiting pricing information, I was optimistic that I'd be able to get away from our feature-lacking DirecTiVos and finally get into the real TiVo Software branch. The pricing missed the mark for me, for now, hardware wise. Service fees were _acceptable_. Now we have to commit to 3 years to get _yesterday's_ pricing.

There are several TiVo users at work and several more that ask us information about TiVo. They were clearly interested, and our enthusiasm for the TiVo features were a great motivator.

Now with prices extremely high for a 1 year commitment, I don't see very many of my coworkers taking the _chance_ with TiVo. How many people want to commit to anything for 3 years these days? I know the cell phone analogy isn't perfect, but I hate my 2 year commitment with Verizon.

Sorry, I've rambled here.


----------



## Fofer

And yet still, I think differently about a cell phone contract. I use my cell phone every day, for crucial communication with business and family. My usage varies each month, but for the last 10 years has been an essential ingredient in my life.

TiVo is not. It's for entertainment only. And for all intents and purposes, my TiVo (whatever the model) just needs to consistently and regularly download the guide data, and remain completely feature locked, and I'd be satisfied. Just download guide data. Surely that shouldn't cost me $20/month. All of the other features are gravy, as far as I'm concerned.

And if you insist on charging $20/month, then I'd expect consistent new featured and upgrades, like, all the time. I'd expect TiVoToGo for Mac, and MRV on Series 3 machines. No compromises and no sacrifices; truly the best of breed with no excuses. $20/month is a lot to swallow.

Now I've been a TiVo loyalist from the beginning. (The LA Times even did a feature on TiVo loyalists, and featured me on the cover.)

My loyalty has faded. Over the years I've seen gold stars and showcases added. I'm FF'ing through ads, but they've been replaced by others. And yet, I'm being asked to pony up more money for the "privilege." 

Guys? It's just TV. 

Something just doesn't add up.


----------



## kido

Let me ask, I'm curious. Would people be happier if TiVo changed to a rental model? 

Let's say they drop their "rental" fee to $8 per month. You sign up, they send you a box (could be new or used, up to them) and you pay as you go. They replace defective hardware. When you decide to stop using their service you must send the box back and are responsible for any damage outside of normal use, missing remotes, cables, etc. or if you do not send back the box they charge you $400. Would that be a better deal?


----------



## ChuckyBox

Dajad said:


> This is precisely what Microsoft, Sony and Apple are about to do in the next few months. 7 years later, where is TiVo?


Er, the content, compression and bandwidth have only started to become available to do this kind of thing recently. That's why no one had done it up until now. You wanted TiVo to stuff DVD-quality movies via MPEG2 over your phone line?



> It's not the consumer's fault that they have not been able to implement a business model that is profitable and competitive at the same time.


No, but either consumers are going to pay for a model that is profitable, or TiVo won't be able to stay in business. To ask them to keep losing money because we don't think anyone should have to pay more or commit to a service contract isn't realistic.

If you or anyone else has a better business model for TiVo, bring it on. But be prepared to cite examples of other companies using that model to make money, and show how TiVo has a competitive edge in that business.


----------



## ChuckyBox

kido said:


> Let me ask, I'm curious. Would people be happier if TiVo changed to a rental model?
> 
> Let's say they drop their "rental" fee to $8 per month. You sign up, they send you a box (could be new or used, up to them) and you pay as you go. They replace defective hardware. When you decide to stop using their service you must send the box back and are responsible for any damage outside of normal use, missing remotes, cables, etc. or if you do not send back the box they charge you $400. Would that be a better deal?


Let me ask you this: You could rent a BMW 5 Series for $100 per month. You sign up, they send you a car (could be new or used, up to them) and you pay as you go. They replace defective hardware. When you decide to stop using their service you must send the car back and are responsible for any damage outside of normal use, missing wheels, engine, etc. or if you do not send back the car they charge you $60000. Would that be a better deal?


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## Fofer

Heh.


----------



## generalpatton71

ChuckyBox said:


> Let me ask you this: You could rent a BMW 5 Series for $100 per month. You sign up, they send you a car (could be new or used, up to them) and you pay as you go. They replace defective hardware. When you decide to stop using their service you must send the car back and are responsible for any damage outside of normal use, missing wheels, engine, etc. or if you do not send back the car they charge you $60000. Would that be a better deal?


No offense Chucky but we are talking about CONSUMER ELECTRONICS not high end german perfection. Every tivo except for the HD versions are cheap over the counter electronic devices. I have three S2 units and I have 3 directv tivo units (2 are HR10). I pay about 30$ a month for my SA units and zero I repeat zero for my Directv tivo units. However I was seriously considering moving over to cable and getting S3 units to replace my HR10's. Now I'm just not sure if I want to invest this type of money in tivo. Allot of what I do is going to be decided on how tivo handles all the rules with the grandfather treatment. Other things matter to me is can I replace a broken unit and continue a commitment from a previous unit, and if you make the three agreement to get the cheaper price are you locked in at that price?


----------



## dstoffa

Fofer said:


> Guys? It's just TV.
> 
> Something just doesn't add up.


The dollar signs just add up.

There was a time, not too long ago, when society did well without ATMs. You'd get paid on a certain day of the week, go to the bank, and take out the cash you needed for some perioid of time. We were told that this new gagdet, called the Automated Teller Machine, would save you time and money. They were right. We no longer needed to go to the bank during normal banking hours. We could go to the bank at any hour.

But wait... Now I can go to any bank which has an ATM on my netowrk (Cirrus, Plus, MAC, etc..). Wow. This is great. I can be 2,000 miles from home, and get money out of my bank account.

But wait, what is this? After 20 years of getting my money, I now have to PAY to have the privelege? What kind of crap is this? Oh well, I guess I'll pay the $1 surcharge. Some time later, on my statement, I see that my own bank has charged me for using someone else's ATM? What is this?

They did a good job of warming you up to their device. They actually groomed you to use it, to the point where if you didn't have access to it, it would drive you crazy. Therefore, they can get away with charging you for it.

You also used the argument of a cell phone. I can see this arguement if you rid yourself of a landline. SOciety did fine without cellphones for a long time. Coin-op pay phones performed well, then came the calling card. (Actually, it was more peaceful - you didn't have gabbers on the train, nor the wife calling you every three minutes.) But we have become accustomed to having instant gratification. "If you can't download it in three seconds, it's crap."

DVRs are the same way. You have become accustomed to having TV your way. They feel you will pay to keep it that way.

It is indeed only TV. But they know you'll pay for it.

-Doug


----------



## Fofer

dstoffa said:


> It is indeed only TV. But they know you'll pay for it.


Time will tell on that front. I'm willing to pay, sure... but not $20/month, and not anything with a 3 year commitment.

The previous feature changes and price hikes weren't deal breakers for me. This one might very well be, though... the day TiVo jumped the shark.


----------



## Gai-jin

Interesting isn't it, that TiVo continues to stall? "more information tomorrow" "we've got something, but it's not quite ready." "..." oh, wait, they didn't even post stall tactics today.

TiVoPony -- How about answering some of the questions that are here? It's nice that you can come in and say it's not as bad as it seems, but if that's the case, explain to us why it's not so bad. Perhaps the website had a typo and it's actually going to be 9.95 a month, not 19.95? That would be about the only way you could try and write this off as a price decrease. 

Again -- How does this save me money on activating a box I already own?


----------



## timckelley

After the thrashing criticism here, I can understand if TiVoPony isn't coming back.

At the same time, I don't criticize the criticism, as I can see where the monthly paying customers might be alarmed at this news and want some consolation out of all this.


----------



## Gai-jin

timckelley said:


> After the thrashing criticism here, I can understand if TiVoPony isn't coming back.


Ignore your customer base when they complain and ask for clarification about confusing new policies/pricing you've quietly put in place.

Hmm... doesn't seem like a good way to keep customers. Then again, this stealth policy change / price in crease certainly doesn't foster a sense of loyalty among customers either, does it?


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## 1283

Since when does a company have to explain price changes? If you don't like the price and have a better alternative, nobody is forcing you to stay with TiVo.


----------



## Dajad

ChuckyBox said:


> Er, the content, compression and bandwidth have only started to become available to do this kind of thing recently. That's why no one had done it up until now. You wanted TiVo to stuff DVD-quality movies via MPEG2 over your phone line?


Chuky, CinemaNow and others have been in this business for about 5 years. Since I've posted dozens if not more than a hundred posts on this forum discussing every infinitesimal detail of this idea, the business model, the revenue possibilities on this very board since 1999 I don't really want to do it again. I'd say search "iVOD" and "Dajad" on this board for everything you'd ever want to hear/read about it, but since they dropped archives here, all that thought and hours of typing and debating has gone the the great bit-bucket in the sky. And if I typed it up all again, that's exactly where it would be in another year or so.

Suffice it so say, this has been my CONSTANT refrain here since the beginning and everyone that's been here since 1999 can attest to that. My recommendations were here LONG before the S2 was launched when they could have included other-than just Mpeg 2 codecs. The codecs and compression technologies to do it have been around since 2000ish. The will (and to be fair to TiVo, the willingness of the studios to go along with the idea) are the only thing that was lacking - not bandwidth nor technology.

...Dale


----------



## Fofer

Dajad said:


> but since they dropped archives here, all that thought and hours of typing and debating has gone the the great bit-bucket in the sky. And if I typed it up all again, that's exactly where it would be in another year or so.


 

TCF Archive 1 
TCF Archive 2


----------



## Dajad

Fofer said:


> the day TiVo jumped the shark.


Fofer ... you hit the nail on the head with that statement. I can't tell you how deflated I felt when I read first post in this thread. I've defended TiVo through thousands of anti-TiVo tiraids here and on other boards. I've recommended it to all-comers. I have two TiVo plush dolls and had one sitting on my monitor in my plush San Fran law office.

But, ya, when I read this one ... that's exactly how I felt - TiVo had finally, finally jumped the shark !!!!

...Dale


----------



## samo

> DVRs are the same way. You have become accustomed to having TV your way. They feel you will pay to keep it that way.
> 
> It is indeed only TV. But they know you'll pay for it.


I completely agree with you on first part of your post. Indeed, after years of using DVRs you can not go back to life TV. It is almost an addiction. But I disagree with your assumption that people will pay extra to have TiVo. If TiVo was only game in town, then you would be correct. But fortunately people have choices now. Contrary to popular belief alternative DVRs are not that bad. I have been using DishDVrs and lately DTV DVRs alongside with TiVos. Granted, I'm one of few people who prefers DishDVRs to TiVo, but objectively both Dish and DTV DVRs are at least on par with TiVo on most important aspects - recording TV and skipping commercials. And they get better and better. In my opinion TiVo gets worse with time. They give you bunch of useless options that are done better with computers or cheap electronic devices but do nothing to improve user interface or main functions of DVR. Gap between TiVo and competition is almost gone. I don't think that TiVo can command a premium for their product anymore. I don't have S3, but just reading S3 forum and comparing specs and my experience with two units from satellite companies I just got (Vip622 and HR20) I can tell you that S3 is clearly overpriced. I paid $199 each for my HD DVRs. My service for Vip622 is $5/month and $0 additional cost for HR20 (it would be $6/month if HR20 was my only DVR). Tell me what does S3 have that satellite DVRs don't? Certainly not reliability or ease of installation. I'm sure that cable DVRs will catch up with TiVo just like satellite DVRs did. I think that major reason TiVo increased the length of the commitment is because more and more people jump the ship.


> I have two TiVo plush dolls and had one sitting on my monitor in my plush San Fran law office.


As an old timer I also have two TiVo dolls. One is sitting on top of HR20 and another one top of Vip622.  I'm afraid that these dolls will become collector items one of these days.


----------



## samo

Dajad said:


> Suffice it so say, this has been my CONSTANT refrain here since the beginning and everyone that's been here since 1999 can attest to that. My recommendations were here LONG before the S2 was launched when they could have included other-than just Mpeg 2 codecs. The codecs and compression technologies to do it have been around since 2000ish. The will (and to be fair to TiVo, the willingness of the studios to go along with the idea) are the only thing that was lacking - not bandwidth nor technology.
> 
> ...Dale


It took you almost 5 years to convince me that you were right.  I conceded and admitted that I was wrong about year and a half ago. Unfortunately, TiVo didn't see it as an opportunity just like I didn't (although, they never admitted that they were wrong).


----------



## cwerdna

I guess for people who are upset and want Replay, ReplayTV PC Edition is coming real soon.

I posted about it at http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=325691. $100 for the software and 1st year. $20/year after that. You provide the PC and compatible tuner cards.


----------



## myf16

I just read this entire thread and I still have a question. 

On Oct 31 I ordered a S2 DT (649) with 1 year prepaid for $155.40 as others have done recently. I also own a S1 with lifetime service. Will I be able to sign up for 3 years at $6.95 per month afer my 1 year ends? (I have never had a MSD rate on the new unit, so I'm thinking maybe not.)

If not, I still have 20 days or so to return the unit and cancel the deal. Should I keep it or return it?


----------



## LoadStar

dstoffa said:


> The dollar signs just add up.
> 
> There was a time, not too long ago, when society did well without ATMs. You'd get paid on a certain day of the week, go to the bank, and take out the cash you needed for some perioid of time. We were told that this new gagdet, called the Automated Teller Machine, would save you time and money. They were right. We no longer needed to go to the bank during normal banking hours. We could go to the bank at any hour.
> 
> But wait... Now I can go to any bank which has an ATM on my netowrk (Cirrus, Plus, MAC, etc..). Wow. This is great. I can be 2,000 miles from home, and get money out of my bank account.
> 
> But wait, what is this? After 20 years of getting my money, I now have to PAY to have the privelege? What kind of crap is this? Oh well, I guess I'll pay the $1 surcharge. Some time later, on my statement, I see that my own bank has charged me for using someone else's ATM? What is this?
> 
> They did a good job of warming you up to their device. They actually groomed you to use it, to the point where if you didn't have access to it, it would drive you crazy. Therefore, they can get away with charging you for it.
> 
> You also used the argument of a cell phone. I can see this arguement if you rid yourself of a landline. SOciety did fine without cellphones for a long time. Coin-op pay phones performed well, then came the calling card. (Actually, it was more peaceful - you didn't have gabbers on the train, nor the wife calling you every three minutes.) But we have become accustomed to having instant gratification. "If you can't download it in three seconds, it's crap."
> 
> DVRs are the same way. You have become accustomed to having TV your way. They feel you will pay to keep it that way.
> 
> It is indeed only TV. But they know you'll pay for it.
> 
> -Doug


The question, though, is how much will you be willing to pay for it? And to whom? Take your ATM example, for instance. I know that I might be willing to swallow a $1 surcharge if I'm in a hurry... but take that surcharge up to $2.50, $3, or more? I'll be hunting for another ATM that's $1 or less. Or I'll just skip and use credit card.

Cell phone, likewise. I personally only carry a cell phone because my employer gives me one and tells me I have to carry it... but let's say I decide to carry a cell phone of my own. At a certain point, I'll have to make the decision if I use it enough to make it worth paying the monthly bill. At a certain usage level or below, or a certain monthly bill or higher, I'll probably decide that it might make more financial sense to carry a prepaid... or go without.

Here, you have alternatives that are $10 a month or less, with no long-term commitment required. Yes, it's no TiVo - but at a certain point, I would have to make the decision to switch to the lower cost DVR alternative, as most consumers have begun to make the same decision. It's a cost/benefit balance, and right now, the cost is way, way out of whack for what you get, when compared to the competition.


----------



## dstoffa

LoadStar said:


> The question, though, is how much will you be willing to pay for it? And to whom? Take your ATM example, for instance. I know that I might be willing to swallow a $1 surcharge if I'm in a hurry... but take that surcharge up to $2.50, $3, or more? I'll be hunting for another ATM that's $1 or less. Or I'll just skip and use credit card.


Well, I attempt to keep my ATM usage to a minimum. When home, I use my own bank's ATM. When I am on travel, I am not about to go driving 10 miles to save a dollar, or three for that matter. I just make sure to make the most of that fee, and take out as much cash as I can. My time is money, too.



LoadStar said:


> Here, you have alternatives that are $10 a month or less, with no long-term commitment required. Yes, it's no TiVo - but at a certain point, I would have to make the decision to switch to the lower cost DVR alternative, as most consumers have begun to make the same decision. It's a cost/benefit balance, and right now, the cost is way, way out of whack for what you get, when compared to the competition.


Here you need to factor in laziness. Maybe people don't want to reprogram their DVR. Maybe the like the noise TIvo makes. I don't know. Maybe they are just ignorant of the other options out there. Apparently some marketers told them that their new pricing plan is the way to increase revenue. The people on this board are NOT a true sample of all Tivo users / owners.

-Doug


----------



## 1283

myf16 said:


> On Oct 31 I ordered a S2 DT (649) with 1 year prepaid for $155.40 as others have done recently. I also own a S1 with lifetime service. Will I be able to sign up for 3 years at $6.95 per month afer my 1 year ends?


yes


----------



## GoHokies!

Gai-jin said:



> Ignore your customer base when they complain and ask for clarification about confusing new policies/pricing you've quietly put in place.
> 
> Hmm... doesn't seem like a good way to keep customers. Then again, this stealth policy change / price in crease certainly doesn't foster a sense of loyalty among customers either, does it?


Asking for clarification is one thing. Endless complaining about "I'm not going to pay 20 dollars a month for Tivo!" while ignoring the fact that 1) your bill isn't going to change and 2) Those prices are still available if you commit to having Tivo (the service, not the same box!!!) for 3 years, is another thing entirely.

It would be nice to see Pony say that we can swap the boxes out without breaking that commitment. I assume that if you do the 3 years start over again?


----------



## Figaro

Gas up the boat TiVo, it's time to go fishing with Fredo! Service contracts are BS. I will never sign a 3 year commitment for a DVR. I am already paying for my digital cable so I might as well just pay the extra 5 bucks a month for their DVR. 

I loved my TiVo in the beginning but it has only on gone down hill. They have added so many "features" that are not only completely useless to me, they also slow my once speedy box to a crawl. You want to keep raising the price? Then give me something useful like, Fofer said; how about TiVoToGo on the Mac? How about a S3 that is close to feature complete? How about a way to opt out of all the bloat that you have put on my box that I don't care about? TiVo my old friend, your are dead to me.


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## Gai-jin

GoHokies! said:


> Asking for clarification is one thing. Endless complaining about "I'm not going to pay 20 dollars a month for Tivo!" while ignoring the fact that 1) your bill isn't going to change and 2) Those prices are still available if you commit to having Tivo (the service, not the same box!!!) for 3 years, is another thing entirely.
> 
> It would be nice to see Pony say that we can swap the boxes out without breaking that commitment. I assume that if you do the 3 years start over again?


Endless complaining? Seems like they could pretty quickly put an end to a lot of it by answering the questions posed in this thread.

Ahh, but the fact is the billing change does affect me. I have 1 tivo right now sitting under a shelf not being used. It is a S2 that was replaced less than a month ago with one of the Humax DVDRW models. I may have decided to re-activate it as an additional unit, or more likely give it to a friend or family member as their first tivo. Now suddenly, this box which I paid a significant amount of money for, is devalued by the extreme changes to TiVo's plans. I can't see anyone wanting to sign up for tivo at these prices, but even if someone does, it'd be better for them to get a new box rather than taking a free used box. The money I invested in the hardware is now a total loss.

I also have an old S1 I gave to a friend recently, he hasn't activated it yet. Likely now he won't.

Lastly, a 3 year commitment to get the same prices I already pay is not acceptable. I will not agree to a 3 year commitment for any company, no matter how much I enjoy their product currently. I've been a tivo customer for 6 years, but trying to tell me I MUST stay with them another 3 is scandalous. The way to keep customers is through treating them well, not charging outrageous fees if they cancel service.


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## ufo4sale

I know where not allowed to talk about TiVo stock but as a product and a shareholder i'm starting to have real doubt about the company that I haven't felt in a very long time. I would love to here what they have to say in their next conference call. I thought for many year that TiVo had the best churn in town. If that's true then why have contracts?


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## Gai-jin

Another question. . . Since I've got old tivo hardware sitting around that is now less than worthless as a tivo box, what else can I do with it?

Is it possible to install a linux distro on it and use it as a file server perhaps?


----------



## Fofer

dstoffa said:


> The people on this board are NOT a true sample of all Tivo users / owners.


Damn straight; they are the ones most excited about (and ostensibly loyal to) TiVo. The early adopters who bit the bullet and paid the "premium" early on. When these folks start raising eyebrows... well then... it's time to take notice.


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## ZeoTiVo

Gai-jin said:


> Now suddenly, this box which I paid a significant amount of money for, is devalued by the extreme changes to TiVo's plans. I can't see anyone wanting to sign up for tivo at these prices, but even if someone does, it'd be better for them to get a new box rather than taking a free used box. The money I invested in the hardware is now a total loss.


 Oh please, when has TiVo hardware in itself ever kept any value. Have you noticed the prices at TiVo.com on hardware dropping? the only value in used TiVo hardware has been for a modded box so the buyer would not have to do the work himself. Other than that the value has always been in any subscription on the box. If you had not been cheap and gotten lifetime on that box you could sell if for 300$ or more right now. TiVo recognized this and decided to get the subscription value for themselves so they could start showing a profit.



> I also have an old S1 I gave to a friend recently, he hasn't activated it yet. Likely now he won't.
> 
> Lastly, a 3 year commitment to get the same prices I already pay is not acceptable.


 that is fine for you, but perhaps TiVo is looking for a better relationship now. The Love them and leave them types do not usually pay the bills. And for any you already pay you will get the same price, it is only on the units you deactivated that you have to deal with the new plan. I am sure you deactivated for a reason so why start complaining now? Because you can't give them away to friends because they won't commit to use the TiVo for a length of time. - buy a three month card then and give them that so uou truly gave them something of value, because as you say they can just go to TiVo.com and get free hardware anyway.


----------



## ChuckyBox

timckelley said:


> After the thrashing criticism here, I can understand if TiVoPony isn't coming back.


I think he'll be back. Despite the "the sky is falling" refrain, the folks here have asked a lot of legitimate questions, and I doubt TiVo anticipated all of the contingencies raised here. A FAQ is definitely needed, and I think they'll provide it.

Some of the questions and some of the answers will require some research though. How will TiVo track the TSNs of grandfathered units? How will CSRs be trained to know when to give the lower rate when it is requested? How can the different treatment of some units be handled automatically? And then any changes have to be run by the accountants, the lawyers, and then management.

As far as thrashings go, this one is pretty mild -- I expected more from TC. Compared to the orgy of outrage over the Series 3 pricing, this is downright mellow. But some people do cross the line into rudeness to Pony when he is one of our only points of access to company information and policy, as well as a good aggregator of our feedback to TiVo. I'm pretty sure everybody here can express their unhappiness and even anger without being rude to someone with whom we want to maintain a relationship.


----------



## davezatz

ChuckyBox said:


> I doubt TiVo anticipated all of the contingencies raised here. Some of the questions and some of the answers will require some research though.
> 
> I'm pretty sure everybody here can express their unhappiness and even anger without being rude to someone with whom we want to maintain a relationship.


Both, excellent points.


----------



## Gai-jin

ZeoTiVo said:


> Oh please, when has TiVo hardware in itself ever kept any value.


Short of buying refurb specials, there has always been some cost to acquire tivo hardware. As such, there is some inherent value in giving a box to someone to get started.



> that is fine for you, but perhaps TiVo is looking for a better relationship now. The Love them and leave them types do not usually pay the bills.


Interesting... I'd hardly consider a 6 year subscriber and multi tivo home to be a 'love them and leave them' situation.

The point is, I've been a good customer for years. Now they want a contract stating that I'll continue to be, or else they'll charge $150 for leaving? Gee, what a deal that sounds like!


----------



## ZeoTiVo

ChuckyBox said:


> But some people do cross the line into rudeness to Pony when he is one of our only points of access to company information and policy, as well as a good aggregator of our feedback to TiVo. I'm pretty sure everybody here can express their unhappiness and even anger without being rude to someone with whom we want to maintain a relationship.


especially since TiVoPony has always acted in a very professional manner in his posts and usually imjects a good bit of fun as well when the topic warrants it. :up:

Bob,
I hope you can come back and answer the questions, such as what happens when a pre-paid box ends? is there any grandfathering of thsoe deals?

Also what exactly happens when you switch hardware under a contract.

Example: -- I have a 540 bought under the old pay a year upfront (155$) and get the 140 hour hardware free. A sweet deal. Since it came out at MSD rate for me (even sweeter) it has not ended but soon will. If I make a 3 year contract on it to get the 6.95 Serive only MSD rate and then say next year buy an S3 and move the contract to that box, what happens? is that a new 3 year contract or does the hardware change out with the 540 being deactivated and the contract goes for just 2 more years on the S3?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Gai-jin said:


> Short of buying refurb specials, there has always been some cost to acquire tivo hardware. As such, there is some inherent value in giving a box to someone to get started.


 some cost, but it has steadily become a smaller and smaller cost. You lose credibility if you keep trying to claim you were wronged out of some small value on your hardware. Certainly hope you did not think this commodity hardware was a long term investment when you bought it



> Interesting... I'd hardly consider a 6 year subscriber and multi tivo home to be a 'love them and leave them' situation.
> 
> The point is, I've been a good customer for years. Now they want a contract stating that I'll continue to be, or else they'll charge $150 for leaving? Gee, what a deal that sounds like!


yep, you have been steady for 6 years but when they want to set a date you just can't commit


----------



## timckelley

In view of these changes, I wonder if the market value of a lifetime sub (on a used TiVo) will go up.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

timckelley said:


> In view of these changes, I wonder if the market value of a lifetime sub (on a used TiVo) will go up.


I think so - the subscription has always been the value and people just never really noticed that TiVo was giving that value away to get subscribers. Lifetimed TiVos will have value based on that though of course SD analog technology will take away that value over time.


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## timckelley

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think so - the subscription has always been the value and people just never really noticed that TiVo was giving that value away to get subscribers. Lifetimed TiVos will have value based on that though of course SD analog technology will take away that value over time.


Good point. Now that they're offering the temporary lifetime transfer option to an S3, I can imagine those people who are smart enough to do that, might have a valuable asset years from now.


----------



## ChuckyBox

Dajad said:


> Chuky, CinemaNow and others have been in this business for about 5 years.


First, I fundamentally agree that this is a direction TiVo should be going, and they are. It may not be soon enough for you, but as far as I know, none of the download services are making any money, nor does anyone have much positive to say about them. This is typical of the articles I've seen.



> My recommendations were here LONG before the S2 was launched when they could have included other-than just Mpeg 2 codecs. The codecs and compression technologies to do it have been around since 2000ish. The will (and to be fair to TiVo, the willingness of the studios to go along with the idea) are the only thing that was lacking - not bandwidth nor technology.


The technology may have existed, but building a box that used it would have been more expensive, and TiVo has pretty clearly demonstrated that the lower the price of the hardware, the better the company does.

And, as we have both pointed out now, the available content has been extremely limited. Only recently have the studios begun to show a willingness to allow broader downloading, and it's still very restricted and fragmented. Hell, TiVo had a deal with Netflix two years ago and they couldn't make that work. There is no possible way TiVo could have done anything but lose more money by trying to provide a movie download service five years ago (or whenever you started pushing the idea).


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## Gai-jin

ZeoTiVo said:


> yep, you have been steady for 6 years but when they want to set a date you just can't commit


Such a commitment generally involves some benefit to both parties. At this point, if I accept a 1 year commitment I stand to LOSE $7 a month. 2 years I'm still losing. And signing up for a real 'long term' commitment of 3 years? Tivo gains, and gives nothing in return.


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## MediaLivingRoom

_"TiVo Service Only" Payment Plans: Monthly or Prepay

7. "After the end of your monthly or prepaid commitment period, as applicable, your TiVo Service Only Payment Plan will continue on a month-to-month basis at the* then applicable-rate * for a one year commitment to the TiVo service."_

So, who knows what the price could be in 1, 2 or 3 years of your service only contract?? Basicly it will go back to $19.95 (the current price) or higher!!! So i read some place that you would have to call TiVo at the end of the plan to re-commit to a new term or at least call to get the "12.95, $14.95 or ($19.95 per month if the then current rate is higher!!)

--- Yes, I know it looks simple because the "TiVo Service Only" is now similar/like the "TiVo Package Payment Plans"

---------------------
I don't like how TiVo Management is treating its loyal customers. How many nails in the coffin are they willing to do???


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## Puppy76

I can NOT believe TivoPony and some of you guys on here are actually claiming prices are CHEAPER now. Unreal!

Before, committing to a longer period got you a cheaper price-now it just gets you back to the normal price. (And prior to this past year, you didn't have to commit at all.)

And I'll say it again-we can't talk people into Tivo anymore. It would be embarrassing trying to convince someone to go with it. And I don't believe in it either for these prices.

Another thing I haven't seen addressed-what happens AFTER your 3 year contract is up? Does it switch to monthly for the same price? Bill you for another 3 years? What?

All this on top of a buggy software release, no Macintosh support, and a Series 3 lacking what for me are vital features. Yeah, this new president is really turning the company around all right. They're going to act "surprised" when new subscriptions plummet. 

Either they're completely out of touch with reality, or they've given up on the stand alone market. Those are the two choices, period. It's possible they intend to move to just being a software/service provider for cable companies.


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## MediaLivingRoom

Puppy76 said:


> Either they're completely out of touch with reality, or they've given up on the stand alone market. Those are the two choices, period. It's possible they intend to move to just being a software/service provider for cable companies.


*I would add that TiVo is Out of touch with its loyal customers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## bicker

Well, to be fair, consumers and business have diametrically-oppositional definitions of loyalty. If you think getting a great deal for many years makes you loyal, then you're sadly mistaken!  Loyalty is often considered the willingness of a consumer to pay a premium for something.

I think they have overshot a reasonable price-point, especially given the alternatives people have. Having said that, they had better have done the market research, and assuming they did, they KNOW what we can only SPECULATE about. (Hint: Their knowledge is probably more accurate than our speculation.)


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## timckelley

Admittedly, I've always had trouble talking people into TiVo, but I feel fairly confident my friends will be even more turned off by a 3 year contract. I think people who have already used TiVo might be willing to sign for 3 years. In effect, that's what I did when I lifetimed my second TiVo (ignoring resale value). But for new customers who have never used TiVo? That new customer has 4 choices:

1) Sign for 3 years. I don't know of any new customers willing to place that kind of trust. 1 year, maybe, but people don't want to be locked into to something they don't know or trust for 3 years.

2) Sign a 1 or 2 year contract. 1 year is $19.95 per month? I know of nobody willing to pay that kind of money for a TiVo.

3) Go with the competition. This choice actually sounds plausible. I think many will pick this choice, (as did my brother, and also my sister-in-law.)

4) Just don't get a DVR period. Most people I know have chosen that route.


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## Fofer

Hey, if I sign up for a three-year "contract" and TiVo goes under during that subscription period (because no one else falls for it like I did) then what happens? I assume the service stops and guide data is no longer downloaded. What happens then, do I get a pro-rated portion of my money back?


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## timckelley

Fofer said:


> Hey, if I sign up for a three-year "contract" and TiVo goes under during that subscription period (because no one else falls for it like I did) then what happens? I assume the service stops and guide data is no longer downloaded. What happens then, do I get a pro-rated portion of my money back?


I assume you stop paying your monthly fee.


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## MediaLivingRoom

bicker said:


> Well, to be fair, consumers and business have diametrically-oppositional definitions of loyalty. If you think getting a great deal for many years makes you loyal, then you're sadly mistaken!  Loyalty is often considered the willingness of a consumer to pay a premium for something.
> 
> I think they have overshot a reasonable price-point, especially given the alternatives people have. Having said that, they had better have done the market research, and assuming they did, they KNOW what we can only SPECULATE about. (Hint: Their knowledge is probably more accurate than our speculation.)


You are probably right in that if the average consumers would just take the new specials and NOT read the fine print and just be shocked later or just keep paying. I am sure TiVo research has showed them that the average consumer does not worry about the details and want the free box and introductory price. Similar to the 1% mortgage plans that are out there for homes.(Its the I got cha plans)


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## Fofer

timckelley said:


> I assume you stop paying your monthly fee.


  The three-year "contract" I was referring to was the $299 pre-pay.


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## timckelley

From the OP:



ChuckyBox said:


> Let the freak-out begin.


Your proposal has been accepted!


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## timckelley

Fofer said:


> The three-year "contract" I was referring to was the $299 pre-pay.


Oh, I thought you were talking about the 3 year contract whereby you pay $12.95 per month (not the prepay).

But actually if I were getting my first TiVo, I'd be tempted to go the prepay route, because it does save a lot of money.

They might as well cross off the $299 2-year prepay option, because only a 100% certifiable idiot would choose that. Why even offer it? To insult our intelligences?

ETA: I just looked at the site again, and the $299 3-year prepay is normally $349, but they've marked it down to $299. Below that it says "Special limited-time offer", but it's unclear whether that is referring to the $299 3-year prepay. If so, that explains why they offer the 2 year prepay at $299. Because once the 3 year goes up to $349, some people might have a reason to pick 2 years at $299.


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## 1283

ZeoTiVo said:


> Also what exactly happens when you switch hardware under a contract.
> 
> Example: -- I have a 540 bought under the old pay a year upfront (155$) and get the 140 hour hardware free. A sweet deal. Since it came out at MSD rate for me (even sweeter) it has not ended but soon will. If I make a 3 year contract on it to get the 6.95 Serive only MSD rate and then say next year buy an S3 and move the contract to that box, what happens? is that a new 3 year contract or does the hardware change out with the 540 being deactivated and the contract goes for just 2 more years on the S3?


Changing the hardware does *NOT* extend the duration of the original contract, and you can change as often as you like (without additional rebate, if any). The S3 takes over the remaining contract for 2 more years.

BTW, this was explained by TiVoStephen in the sticky a long time ago.


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## GoHokies!

c3 said:


> BTW, this was explained by TiVoStephen in the sticky a long time ago.


Since the price change didn't take place a long time ago, it would be nice to hear confirmation that this is still the case.


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## ChuckyBox

Puppy76 said:


> Either they're completely out of touch with reality, or they've given up on the stand alone market. Those are the two choices, period.


I think there are any number of other possibilities, one of which is that TiVo is more in touch with "reality" than the people on this forum. And by "reality" I mean hard data from market tests, elasticity of demand for the service, churn as a function of subscriber life, fraction of new customers choosing various price points and commitment terms, consumer resistance to service commitments, etc. None of us has a lick of objective data on these little bits of "reality" that are the basis for TiVo's decisions on this pricing plan.


----------



## bmgoodman

Gai-jin said:


> Such a commitment generally involves some benefit to both parties. At this point, if I accept a 1 year commitment I stand to LOSE $7 a month. 2 years I'm still losing. And signing up for a real 'long term' commitment of 3 years? Tivo gains, and gives nothing in return.


OK, not to really defend Tivo, because I'm against their new rates, but I must point out that they do give SOMETHING in return for the 3 year commitement: a parts warranty. Sure, labor can get expensive, but they are giving something. Now, after defending them, I'll go back to complaining now....


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## davezatz

c3 said:


> Changing the hardware does *NOT* extend the duration of the original contract, and you can change as often as you like (without additional rebate, if any). BTW, this was explained by TiVoStephen in the sticky a long time ago.


This needs to be added to the official TiVo documentation. Not all customers read this forum or that thread.



bmgoodman said:


> I must point out that they do give SOMETHING in return for the 3 year commitement: a parts warranty. Sure, labor can get expensive, but they are giving something.


Only on the bundled hardware+service plans. Anything bought at Best Buy, etc and subscribed separately has the normal short warranty period according to TiVo's documentation.


----------



## Gai-jin

bmgoodman said:


> OK, not to really defend Tivo, because I'm against their new rates, but I must point out that they do give SOMETHING in return for the 3 year commitement: a parts warranty. Sure, labor can get expensive, but they are giving something. Now, after defending them, I'll go back to complaining now....


Parts warranty... okay, so I have a box that's on a 12 mo/12.95 contract now. In 12 mo. it expires, and I have 2 choices, 19.95 a month, or sign a new contract for 3 years. Do they then give me a parts warranty I didn't have before?

And for that parts warranty, do they offer the option of me doing the labor myself? Parts warranty might actually mean something if they didn't charge the same fee for labor as they do for parts & labor.


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## dbtom

Fofer said:


> Hey, if I sign up for a three-year "contract" and TiVo goes under during that subscription period (because no one else falls for it like I did) then what happens? I assume the service stops and guide data is no longer downloaded. What happens then, do I get a pro-rated portion of my money back?


Generally speaking, customers have highest priority in a bankruptcy ahead of banks, equity holders, etc.. So Tivo would likely need to refund your subscription or fulfill the terms of the subscription. Tivo's creditors would probably find a company to service the existing subscribers at a minimal cost. Based on what ReplayTV is doing, it probably wouldn't cost more than $20 / year. Many companies outsource customer service for discontinued products.

It would be interesting to see how long Tivo would be obligated to serve their lifetime subscribers after bankruptcy. I can't think of many products that have an infinite subscription option.


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## mportuesi

I have to echo the sentiments of others on this thread, especially Dajad, Fofer and timckelley.

I recently bought a S3 unit and transferred Lifetime from my S2. Had that option not been available, I would not have bought the S3.

I might have considered paying $6.95 a month on the S2 once its free year runs out, since it's convenient having a Tivo on the second TV. (Dual-tuners on the S3 are sufficient for all of my recording needs). I certainly won't do it for $13.95 a month ($19.95 - $6 MSD), and I certainly won't commit to 3 years prepaid service on what will then be a five-year-old box based on old analog technology.

I would have considered giving the S2 unit to a relative, but there's no way I will do that with the new pricing policies. None of my family would pay for it. This S2 unit is a boat anchor once its year of service is up. I might pull the hard drive and use it in a PC.

I can definitely say that choosing Lifetime for my S2 several years ago was the smartest Tivo buying decision I ever made. And I am genuinely concerned the Lifetime subscription now on my Series 3 refers to the Lifetime of Tivo, not the S3 box.

Three thumbs down for Tivo.


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## Stormspace

dbtom said:


> Generally speaking, customers have highest priority in a bankruptcy ahead of banks, equity holders, etc.. So Tivo would likely need to refund your subscription or fulfill the terms of the subscription. Tivo's creditors would probably find a company to service the existing subscribers at a minimal cost. Based on what ReplayTV is doing, it probably wouldn't cost more than $20 / year. Many companies outsource customer service for discontinued products.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how long Tivo would be obligated to serve their lifetime subscribers after bankruptcy. I can't think of many products that have an infinite subscription option.


If it were to happen, I'd bet that the advertising opportunities would be traded to a company like TVguide in return for maintaining guide data. Frankly though I don't think that will happen, if TiVo goes belly up someone is going to buy them and market the product line in some form and I'll guarantee they won't be as friendly or as responsive.


----------



## dbtom

Stormspace said:


> If it were to happen, I'd bet that the advertising opportunities would be traded to a company like TVguide in return for maintaining guide data. Frankly though I don't think that will happen, if TiVo goes belly up someone is going to buy them and market the product line in some form and I'll guarantee they won't be as friendly or as responsive.


I like the TV guide idea. I expected the Tivo subscription rates to head lower (eventually to 0) as advertising became more important. Since rates are actually increasing, I'm not sure that advertising would be meaningful enough to support the service.


----------



## Gai-jin

dbtom said:


> I like the TV guide idea. I expected the Tivo subscription rates to head lower (eventually to 0) as advertising became more important. Since rates are actually increasing, I'm not sure that advertising would be meaningful enough to support the service.


That would seem reasonable to me. They've added quite a bit of advertising since I paid $499 for my first 14 hour tivo, and yet my rates have gone up, and up. . . Doesn't make much sense.

albeit, they have also added many more features since then as well. Perhaps the rates should have stayed the same and features should have been an additional fee or advertising supported?


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## 1283

Gai-jin said:


> Perhaps the rates should have stayed the same and features should have been an additional fee or advertising supported?


I cannot wait for another round of complaints.


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## Stormspace

c3 said:


> I cannot wait for another round of complaints.


Ok. Complain, complain, complain. Soon enough for ya?  I wouldn't want to make you wait.


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## Gai-jin

c3 said:


> I cannot wait for another round of complaints.


complaints? I don't see it unreasonable to charge extra for features that are not included in the hardware/software/subscription you are paying for.

For example, if Tivo to go was $2 or $3 a month extra, some people would pay for it, some wouldn't. The problem would be if the feature were free, then suddenly had a fee added to it.


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## ZeoTiVo

c3 said:


> Changing the hardware does *NOT* extend the duration of the original contract, and you can change as often as you like (without additional rebate, if any). The S3 takes over the remaining contract for 2 more years.
> 
> BTW, this was explained by TiVoStephen in the sticky a long time ago.


these are new pricing policies vs an explanation of last years changes. I accept what is in there as a starting point and that would be my guess that the contract just finishes its curretn duration but with the new hardware. I was just hoping for more calrification from TiVo inc. directly.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

zaknafein said:


> I've been a TiVo user for over 5 years. I've had numerous units over the years, and have recommended them to many friends and family.
> 
> This new pricing structure is beyond obscene. I had considered upgrading to a S3 next year, but won't now under the current terms. I most certainly won't be recommending any device to anyone that comes with a $20/month anvil strapped to it.
> 
> Truely unbelievable.


How do you get $20 per month out of the current pricing? Unless you go month to month, it's always going to be less than that. Even if you did have to pay that much, what is YOUR time worth. Compared to what the source information costs (cable, Satellite) the service is a bargain. You have no risk of hardware failure since the parts portion of the warrenty gets extended for the period of the service plan. Sign up for three years, they make sure the machine keeps working.


----------



## ADent

myf16 said:


> I just read this entire thread and I still have a question.
> 
> On Oct 31 I ordered a S2 DT (649) with 1 year prepaid for $155.40 as others have done recently. I also own a S1 with lifetime service. Will I be able to sign up for 3 years at $6.95 per month afer my 1 year ends? (I have never had a MSD rate on the new unit, so I'm thinking maybe not.)
> 
> If not, I still have 20 days or so to return the unit and cancel the deal. Should I keep it or return it?


According to my interpretation of TiVoPony -


TiVoPony said:


> And finally - nothing has changed for any existing customers. You have the same pricing you did when you woke up yesterday morning. Same plans, same deal.


 You will not need to sign up for 3 years. Exsiting customers will not be impacted by new pricing plans.


----------



## chessplayer

Puppy76 said:


> I can NOT believe TivoPony and some of you guys on here are actually claiming prices are CHEAPER now. Unreal!
> 
> Before, committing to a longer period got you a cheaper price-now it just gets you back to the normal price. (And prior to this past year, you didn't have to commit at all.)
> 
> And I'll say it again-we can't talk people into Tivo anymore. It would be embarrassing trying to convince someone to go with it. And I don't believe in it either for these prices. [...]
> All this on top of a buggy software release, no Macintosh support, and a Series 3 lacking what for me are vital features. [...] Either they're completely out of touch with reality, or they've given up on the stand alone market.


 Nicely said. It's mind-boggling that TiVo is trying to spin this as a price drop. Very few potential new customers will like the new pricing or be happy about a 3 year commitment. The viable TiVo alternatives will be rapidly becoming cheaper and better over the next couple years, and TiVo should have responded in a price-competitive manner.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

Where is TiVoPony on the FAQ?


----------



## timckelley

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Where is TiVoPony on the FAQ?


conspicuously absent?


----------



## myf16

dbtom said:


> I can't think of many products that have an infinite subscription option.


I can't think of many products (or people) who have an infinite lifetime. 

The original lifetime subscription was for the life of the hardware, so I believe that is the promise that needs to be honored. Apparently Tivo now allows a transfer to new hardware, but that's a once-only option, correct?


----------



## HDTiVo

I have an S3 @ MSD still under 30 day trial. The other 4 S2s are old no commitment MSDs (3) and 1 LT.

In the next few days I will do one of the following:

1. Send back the S3.

2. Cancel MSD on the S3 and resub for 3yrs @ $6.95.



I have no intention of retiring the LT S2 which I would after one year if I did the Lifetime Transfer. I will not buy another S2 in the future - I had considered going DT.

My plans for a multi-S3 (4) system are now cancelled. I no longer plan to use TiVoes as the heart of my Digital Media Network.


----------



## timckelley

HDTiVo said:


> I have an S3 @ MSD still under 30 day trial. The other 4 S2s are old no commitment MSDs (3) and 1 LT.
> 
> In the next few days I will do one of the following:
> 
> 1. Send back the S3.
> 
> 2. Cancel MSD on the S3 and resub for 3yrs @ $6.95.
> 
> I have no intention of retiring the LT S2 which I would after one year if I did the Lifetime Transfer. I will not buy another S2 in the future - I had considered going DT.
> 
> My plans for a multi-S3 (4) system are now cancelled. I no longer plan to use TiVoes as the heart of my Digital Media Network.


Judging from that inventory, I'd say that a TiVo loyalist has just spoken.


----------



## Dajad

FYI, for those looking for a TiVo alternative given the new pricing model. Here's a review of the upcoming Vista Media Center due out on January 31, 2007:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=71

And most importantly - there are no monthly guide data fees to use it!

If you have a *[XBox] *360 as I do and a reasonably powerful computer that it is networked to (as I do) and you are purchasing Vista (as I will) there will be no cost to using it.

...Dale

*[Edit to add "Xbox" in front of 360]*


----------



## Dajad

Fofer said:


> TCF Archive 1
> TCF Archive 2


Wow, thanks Fofer ... I didn't realize the old Archive was still here. Last I looked I couldn't find it. So, there you go chucky ... search away if interested.


----------



## timckelley

Dajad said:


> FYI, for those looking for a TiVo alternative given the new pricing model. Here's a review of the upcoming Vista Media Center due out on January 31, 2007:
> 
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=71
> 
> And most importantly - there are no monthly guide data fees to use it!
> 
> If you have a 360 as I do and a reasonably powerful computer that it is networked to (as I do) and you are purchasing Vista (as I will) there will be no cost to using it.
> 
> ...Dale


What's a 360? I'm wondering for somebody who has a network set up, but who is already using his computers and would need to buy a new computer to handle the Vist Media Center, what would a total up-front setup cost be? It sounds like they'd ned to buy a 360 (whatever that is), and computer, and purchase Vista, but it sounds like there are no monthly costs.

Or could an existing computer be used - i.e. would there be a conflict if the same computer that records shows also be used for various recordkeeping tasks (Quicken, etc.)?


----------



## bidger

timckelley said:


> What's a 360?


X-Box 360.


----------



## PhillyGuy

timckelley said:


> What's a 360? I'm wondering for somebody who has a network set up, but who is already using his computers and would need to buy a new computer to handle the Vist Media Center, what would a total up-front setup cost be? It sounds like they'd ned to buy a 360 (whatever that is), and computer, and purchase Vista, but it sounds like there are no monthly costs.
> 
> Or could an existing computer be used - i.e. would there be a conflict if the same computer that records shows also be used for various recordkeeping tasks (Quicken, etc.)?


Xbox 360 now supports HD-DVD and broadband content download service providng HD TV shows and movies. It can also act as a Vista media center extender allowing you to stream content (both SD and HD) from your computer to the xbox. Vista will also support cable card. So when it comes out, you can buy a computer with built-in cable card slots and use it to watch and record high def contents on your TV through the computer or xbox, essentially acting as a centralized DVR similar to the S3.


----------



## timckelley

Oh, thanks. I didn't expect a gaming system to have these capabilities.


----------



## Dajad

ChuckyBox said:


> First, I fundamentally agree that this is a direction TiVo should be going, and they are. It may not be soon enough for you, but as far as I know, none of the download services are making any money, nor does anyone have much positive to say about them.


Yes, because they were all download services to PCs and NOT to the TV. That has been, again, my point for years here, that this kind of service will NEVER take off until it is delivered to the TV where people watch this kind of thing. That is why TiVo has always been THE perfect vehicle for it - especially with its ability to start playing back before the program is fully downloaded - just like it plays back TV shows now before they are over.



ChuckyBox said:


> The technology may have existed, but building a box that used it would have been more expensive, and TiVo has pretty clearly demonstrated that the lower the price of the hardware, the better the company does.


TiVo had the box/service built and demo'd a prototype of it it with MPeg 2 content at CES 2002. (See this archive thread )They had it built years ago. They chose not to exploit it.



ChuckyBox said:


> And, as we have both pointed out now, the available content has been extremely limited. Only recently have the studios begun to show a willingness to allow broader downloading, and it's still very restricted and fragmented. Hell, TiVo had a deal with Netflix two years ago and they couldn't make that work. There is no possible way TiVo could have done anything but lose more money by trying to provide a movie download service five years ago (or whenever you started pushing the idea).


We'll have no idea what it could have been had TiVo built and deployed it. I don't think it would have cost much at all. It may very well have not been a revenue/profit generator in its first couple years (as I have conceded here for years) but had they deployed it 3 years ago they'd be the first mover now and the first able to take advantage of the burgeoning revenue stream. They wouldn't NEED to increase guide data fees as they seemingly need to now. They would have been leaders and not followers.

No, instead TiVo made a strategic decision a couple years ago to put most of its resources into negotiating deals with cable and satellite vendors so they can make monthly profits of 99 cents per sub. Wall St. pushed them in this direction as their stock price was rewarded whenever they made this kind of announcement. Analysts were constantly pressure them to do deals like they did with Comcast. This is exactly the wrong kind of deal TiVo needed to do to retain independence and the freedom to build disruptive technologies that their cableco and satco partners wouldn't want them to do. That, in my opinion, is the likely prime reason TiVo hasn't deployed iVOD to date - not technology, not customer desire, not even studio reluctance (though, as I said, that was still a significant part of the reason).

...Dale


----------



## Einselen

bidger said:


> X-Box 360.


Also the "plain old" XBox can be modded to work like the 360 with Media Features, etc.


----------



## bidger

Right, but can it offer the HD content that the 360 is supposed to?


----------



## Fofer

Maybe it's a perception thing. I think of my TiVo as a very intelligent replacement for my VCR... and that's all, really. It's not providing the content so much as it is providing a convenient way to capture the content, and play it back at my convenience. 

I rarely (if ever) use HMO, and when I do it's really just as a "gee whiz it still works" sort of thing. It doesn't hold a candle (in terms of control) to plain old iTunes plugged into my stereo.

For that reason, I just don't think TiVo "deserves" $20/month from me.

I don't think it should cost more than Satellite Radio, for example.

Now, if that $20/month included the digital downloading of 2-3 movies a month, we'd be talking about something entirely different. As it stands now, it's merely piggybacking off of the content I get from DirecTV (or perhaps soon, cable) and $20/month (on top of the exorbitant cost of the hardware) just seems entirely absurd.


----------



## ChuckyBox

HDTiVo said:


> My plans for a multi-S3 (4) system are now cancelled. I no longer plan to use TiVoes as the heart of my Digital Media Network.


Is this a joke? It's funny because you complained incessantly in the S3 forum about the price. You suggested you might get a box just to see what it was like, then send it back within the 30 day window. And now you ask us to believe you were going to buy four of the things? You are really starting to creep dangerously close to the world of trolldom.

So you were going to spend in excess of $2600 on hardware to make TiVo "the heart of [your] Digital Media Network," but you don't want to commit to it for three years (so you could pay $8.31 + 3*$6.95) to lock in a rate that is lower than you would have paid before. Amazing.


----------



## ChuckyBox

Fofer said:


> For that reason, I just don't think TiVo "deserves" $20/month from me.


So get rid of TiVo and go with something else. What's the problem?


----------



## Gai-jin

ChuckyBox said:


> So get rid of TiVo and go with something else. What's the problem?


One problem would be that we like using tivo, and many of us have invested time and money in the company through buying tivo's for ourselves, as gifts, and convincing others to buy tivo. And yet now TiVo turns it's back on us. So we feel like complaining about it.

How's that?

Or perhaps we're upset even more because TiVo promises answers on this and won't deliver. The already confusing plans have been made even more confusing. It would seem these plans have been made drastically more expensive as well. And yet, even after promising more information, Tivopony is no where to be seen...


----------



## Fofer

ChuckyBox said:


> So get rid of TiVo and go with something else. What's the problem?


No problem, just thinking out loud.

About TiVo.

...in a TiVo forum.

What's the problem?


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> One problem would be that we like using tivo, and many of us have invested time and money in the company through buying tivo's for ourselves, as gifts, and convincing others to buy tivo. And yet now TiVo turns it's back on us. So we feel like complaining about it.
> 
> How's that?
> 
> Or perhaps we're upset even more because TiVo promises answers on this and won't deliver. The already confusing plans have been made even more confusing. It would seem these plans have been made drastically more expensive as well. And yet, even after promising more information, Tivopony is no where to be seen...


If you like using Tivo then doing a 2 or even 3 yr commitment won't be much of an issue then.


----------



## KoG

After reading the terms and conditions of the new pricing plan on Tivo's website, it seems to me that Tivo is basically trying to get everyone to upgrade to new/current model Tivo's at the end of their service commitments. This will pretty much gut the resale market for used Tivo's (with the exception of maybe lifetimed units). It makes very little sense to get a used/second hand Tivo when you have to pay basically the exact same rate as someone getting a bundled Tivo package. Not to mention the bundled Tivo package gets better renewal rate treatment at the end of the term. As I understand it, at the end of say a 3 year bundle commitment your new monthly rate will be the monthly rate of a new 3 year commitment (though you're not committed to 3 years, just month to month). But at the end of a 3 year service only bundle your new rate will be that of a new 1 year service only bundle which will obviously cost more. Dunno about you but that seems like a raw deal for the service only customer. I am basing this on what I read here:

http://www.tivo.com/5.11.6.asp

specifically item 12 on the bundle agreement and item 7 on the service only agreement.


----------



## Gai-jin

Ahh, but it is. The issue isn't whether I plan to keep tivo for years to come. The issue is that they feel the need to force contracts on existing loyal customers. Treat your customers like they're going to leave, and they just might.


----------



## ADent

myf16 said:


> I can't think of many products (or people) who have an infinite lifetime.
> 
> The original lifetime subscription was for the life of the hardware, so I believe that is the promise that needs to be honored. Apparently Tivo now allows a transfer to new hardware, but that's a once-only option, correct?


Users who bought very early (before 1/20/2000 IIRC), before TiVo REALLY clarified lifetime was for the lifetime of the box, not the account get a one time transfer for free.

TiVo is currently offereing any lifetime sub to transfer to a new S3 box for $200. They did a similair thing right after the first S2 boxes were released too.


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> Ahh, but it is. The issue isn't whether I plan to keep tivo for years to come. The issue is that they feel the need to force contracts on existing loyal customers. Treat your customers like they're going to leave, and they just might.


Pony has already said nothing changes for existing customers. I interprete that as if you are already doing 12.95 or 6.95 monthly that will continue as long as you don't lapse in the contract. I wonder, as do many, and am waiting to find out for people like me who did prepay, at the end will I be able to sign up for 1 yr at 12.95/month (doubtful as that was not in the terms of my prepay contract, but you never know). Anyway back to the pt of forcing contracts on existing loyal customers. They are only forcing contracts on the loyal customers when you get a new box. If you have a unit at 12.95/month and some other untils MSD at 6.95/month you will get those rates and still be able to go month to month.


----------



## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> Pony has already said nothing changes for existing customers. I interprete that as if you are already doing 12.95 or 6.95 monthly that will continue as long as you don't lapse in the contract. I wonder, as do many, and am waiting to find out for people like me who did prepay, at the end will I be able to sign up for 1 yr at 12.95/month (doubtful as that was not in the terms of my prepay contract, but you never know). Anyway back to the pt of forcing contracts on existing loyal customers. They are only forcing contracts on the loyal customers when you get a new box. If you have a unit at 12.95/month and some other untils MSD at 6.95/month you will get those rates and still be able to go month to month.


But I have a box currently on a 12.95/mo 1 year contract. If I'm reading the terms right, it's going to go to 19.95/mo after the year unless I sign up for a new 3 year contract. (Or rather, it'll be an secondary box, so it'll go to 13.95/mo, but still $7 more than it should be)


----------



## Einselen

TiVoPony said:


> And finally - nothing has changed for any existing customers. You have the same pricing you did when you woke up yesterday morning. Same plans, same deal.


So as I was working on my rubix cube for fun a thought hit me. By this comment does this mean that we can add an additional box to our account and get MSD for $6.95/month by signing up with just a 1 yr committment? That would mean nothing has changed. Has any tried yet and can report back?

I have a feeling this is going to be a grandfather clause just like the S1 Lifetime grandfather clause. All those with accounts prior to 10/31/06 have this pricing scheme. All others get this new one. Issue with that I see though is wouldn't this make us immune to all other price changes?

Ahh Tivo... stop this speculating and publish your FAQ already, lol...

Ok back to my rubix cube to patiently pass the time.


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> But I have a box currently on a 12.95/mo 1 year contract. If I'm reading the terms right, it's going to go to 19.95/mo after the year unless I sign up for a new 3 year contract. (Or rather, it'll be an secondary box, so it'll go to 13.95/mo, but still $7 more than it should be)


I have a box prepaid for 3 years so I am sitting in the same boat you are. Pony said nothing will change, but still we all have a lot of questions about that. Here is hoping for the best. Until Tivo releases offical FAQ/statement everything right now is speculating.


----------



## MichaelK

samo said:


> Exactly the case. Free hardware in exchange for long commitment. This model is the only thing that stops people from switching to competition. Satellite and cable providers adapted this model also. It seem to work better than, for example, Cricket model - pay for hardware and get cheap service. The only problem I see for TiVo in adapting this model is an uncertainty factor. With cell phones you know what you going to get. With satellite you know what you gettting (and satellite companies let you out of the contract if you return equipment). With TiVo, unless you are TiVo user already, you don't know why you should pay twice as much.


If I recall- sat only lets you out of the contract if you return everything becasue they got sued (although I cant recall the grounds- but i think it might have been something like the hardware is worthless without the service???) . I wonder if someone sues tivo if they to would have to take back boxes and let you out?


----------



## MichaelK

I have A ) one s2 DVD-r box on LT, B) one S2DT at 6.95 and C) one S3 at 6.95.

I want to know what happens if I:

1: but another s3 next year and replace box B will I still get to keep 6.95?
2: if I buy a FOURTH box and add it to my account next year- can I get the 6.95 as I do now on the other boxes or not? I assume not but it's not been said anywhere specifically . If people with current 6.95's can continue to add 6.95's then i think that's a huge deal to current subs. 

Answers to the questions have profound effects on my future tivo plans...


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

timckelley said:


> conspicuously absent?


Yeap, still no FAQ......


----------



## timckelley

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Yeap, still no FAQ......


I wonder if the TiVo people are busy deciding on what the fine print will be (i.e. maybe they haven't yet written in stone how the special cases brought up in this thread are going to be handled).

If so, then in hindsight it'd've been better if all the fine details were hammered out before the new policy was published on their website.


----------



## samo

MichaelK said:


> If I recall- sat only lets you out of the contract if you return everything becasue they got sued (although I cant recall the grounds- but i think it might have been something like the hardware is worthless without the service???) . I wonder if someone sues tivo if they to would have to take back boxes and let you out?


DirecTV was forced to change early termination policy by settlement with 22 states Attorneys General. AGs claimed that DirecTV "Failed to clearly disclose charges and limits of program availability to customers signing long-term contracts". The settlement was $5 mil and DirecTV had to agree to "Improve disclosure, allow free service cancellations, and pay restitution to consumers ".
I guess if enough TiVo users complain to Attorneys General of their states, TiVo may end up in big legal trouble.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

timckelley said:


> I wonder if the TiVo people are busy deciding on what the fine print will be (i.e. maybe they haven't yet written in stone how the special cases brought up in this thread are going to be handled).
> 
> If so, then in hindsight it'd've been better if all the fine details were hammered out before the new policy was published on their website.


Haa haa... they need to figure out how to fix this big mess!!


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Haa haa... they need to figure out how to fix this big mess!!


The easiest way to fix a mess like this is to fire all the retards who thought it was a good idea. Probably starting with the CEO.

Sorry if that seems harsh, but even the new, allegedly simpler pricing plans are ridiculously complicated. When I bought my 1st TiVo the service was something like $7/mo or $199/lifetime. Simple!

Common sense is not very "common" among the marketing pinheads responsible for the latest pricing debacle.


----------



## bicker

ChuckyBox said:


> I think there are any number of other possibilities, one of which is that TiVo is more in touch with "reality" than the people on this forum.


Imagine that! 



> And by "reality" I mean hard data from market tests, elasticity of demand for the service, churn as a function of subscriber life, fraction of new customers choosing various price points and commitment terms, consumer resistance to service commitments, etc. None of us has a lick of objective data on these little bits of "reality" that are the basis for TiVo's decisions on this pricing plan.


Great points.


----------



## bicker

dbtom said:


> Generally speaking, customers have highest priority in a bankruptcy ahead of banks, equity holders, etc..


No. Secured creditors always get priority over unsecured creditors.


----------



## dbtom

bicker said:


> No. Secured creditors always get priority over unsecured creditors.


Always is a strong word. In some cases a judge will consider the customers to be more secure than the bank or at least with similar priority. If you don't give customers some priority, your business will dry up instantaneously in bankruptcy. If you've been involved in a re-org you know that this process is never clean.

Regardless, I doubt Tivo will be going bankrupt any time soon.


----------



## Lazlo123

KoG said:


> As I understand it, at the end of say a 3 year bundle commitment your new monthly rate will be the monthly rate of a new 3 year commitment (though you're not committed to 3 years, just month to month). But at the end of a 3 year service only bundle your new rate will be that of a new 1 year service only bundle which will obviously cost more. Dunno about you but that seems like a raw deal for the service only customer. I am basing this on what I read here:
> 
> specifically item 12 on the bundle agreement and item 7 on the service only agreement.


So, from what i've read, kind of the whole point was to create alignment with pricing... but this isn't alignment. This makes buying a bundle a better deal, yes? Cuz then you don't get screwed at the end of your commitment... not as much anyway...


----------



## ChuckyBox

Lazlo123 said:


> So, from what i've read, kind of the whole point was to create alignment with pricing... but this isn't alignment. This makes buying a bundle a better deal, yes? Cuz then you don't get screwed at the end of your commitment... not as much anyway...


A lot of people seem to be focused on this point. My guess is that it is a red herring brought on by a not-quite-thorough update of the service agreement. I'm fairly sure that whatever plan you are on -- bundled or service-only -- will continue at the price you were paying when you were under contract. Pony's post seems to indicate that, and I assume when they've got a complete set of answers to our questions, they'll clarify.

Just from a customer-retention point of view, it is always best to let sleeping dogs lie. Raising people's rates makes them think about something that has become automatic, and that leads to considering other options. Just look at this thread as an example. Raising rates for new customers is another story.


----------



## Dajad

Einselen said:


> So as I was working on my rubix cube for fun a thought hit me. By this comment does this mean that we can add an additional box to our account and get MSD for $6.95/month by signing up with just a 1 yr committment? That would mean nothing has changed. Has any tried yet and can report back?
> 
> I have a feeling this is going to be a grandfather clause just like the S1 Lifetime grandfather clause. All those with accounts prior to 10/31/06 have this pricing scheme. All others get this new one. Issue with that I see though is wouldn't this make us immune to all other price changes?
> 
> Ahh Tivo... stop this speculating and publish your FAQ already, lol...
> 
> Ok back to my rubix cube to patiently pass the time.


Well that's not how I interpret this or Pony's statement and hence my comments here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4560883&&#post4560883

If we never change our accounts from how they are today then nothing changes ... but that's a silly statement because TiVo lovers like us are always making changes, adding units, dropping units, giving units as gifts etc.

Remember, once lifetime was eliminated, the current lifers did not have the option to purchase a lifetime subscription for new units (with the one-time S3 deal as an exception). When monthly prices increased in the past, current users didn't get the option to purchase new units with the old monthly rate applying.

In every way I can think of, these price changes result in the service fees going up for me for any future purchase.

...Dale


----------



## ChuckyBox

Dajad said:


> Yes, because they were all download services to PCs and NOT to the TV. That has been, again, my point for years here, that this kind of service will NEVER take off until it is delivered to the TV where people watch this kind of thing. That is why TiVo has always been THE perfect vehicle for it - especially with its ability to start playing back before the program is fully downloaded - just like it plays back TV shows now before they are over.


Again, I agree with this point. But downloading a movie that comes in at 1/4 or 1/8 real time is not the same as a TV show that is recording in real time. To insure a good customer experience you have to deliver the movie interruption-free. Which means you can't start playback until several hours into the download (or have tons of bandwidth -- which doesn't exist). It would be great if it were a VOD-like experience, but the reality of showing a movie on a TV-sized screen is much different from showing it on a little window on a computer monitor.



> We'll have no idea what it could have been had TiVo built and deployed it. I don't think it would have cost much at all. It may very well have not been a revenue/profit generator in its first couple years (as I have conceded here for years) but had they deployed it 3 years ago they'd be the first mover now and the first able to take advantage of the burgeoning revenue stream. They wouldn't NEED to increase guide data fees as they seemingly need to now. They would have been leaders and not followers.


They were leaders in the DVR market, and look where that got them. But you want them to invest even more money (that they didn't have) in yet another non-existent market so they can again be first movers. And still, nobody is making any money off of video downloads. Google just paid $1.6 billion for a money-losing company with very little revenue on the off chance that people won't get tired of watching little home videos on their computers. But they can afford to take risks like that because they have excess cash and over-valued stock, and some of those risks will pay off. TiVo can't afford to put tens of millions of dollars into a project to deliver a product that has so far generated nothing but yawns and red ink.

There is no way that anything TiVo could have done in this area would have prevented this change in pricing, and the company would be in much worse shape right now if they had pursued it. They are now in a pretty good position to start taking advantage of video downloads, and are proceeding with it cautiously. If there is a demand, you can bet they will put product in place.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

The idea of "nothing has changed" is you never add additional TiVo's to accounts is crazy. I think most people on this forum love TiVo service that they would add TiVo boxes from time to time. Then they would be affected. Maybe we should all hold off and stop buying a TiVo for at least 3 months (Nov to Jan) to send a message to the CEO that the pricing is just too crazy.


----------



## larrs

MediaLivingRoom said:


> The idea of "nothing has changed" is you never add additional TiVo's to accounts is crazy. I think most people on this forum love TiVo service that they would add TiVo boxes from time to time. Then they would be affected. Maybe we should all hold off and stop buying a TiVo for at least 3 months (Nov to Jan) to send a message to the CEO that the pricing is just too crazy.


I agree. In fact, I have a DT unit that has been sitting in my basement for a month while I waited for time to upgrade the HD and then I was gojing to add it to my account. Now, I am not sure what to do until Tivo clarifies the situation. Over the years I have added several units and dropped several units- the only constant was my series 1 with lifetime, so I could always add another at $7 per month. In fact, I went through some elaborate steps to have several Tivos networked together, even in parts of the house where we don't spend much time. Now, this forces us (the long-time Tivo'ers) to make long term decisions. I for one am not happy with this.


----------



## timckelley

Here I am, checking into this thread on a new day, assuming that the FAQ have surely by now been published.


----------



## Stormspace

MediaLivingRoom said:


> The idea of "nothing has changed" is you never add additional TiVo's to accounts is crazy. I think most people on this forum love TiVo service that they would add TiVo boxes from time to time. Then they would be affected. Maybe we should all hold off and stop buying a TiVo for at least 3 months (Nov to Jan) to send a message to the CEO that the pricing is just too crazy.


This is actually not a bad idea. It's not like you'd have to not buy, just don't buy between now and Feb. It'd be an interesting experiment.


----------



## Figaro

timckelley said:


> Here I am, checking into this thread on a new day, assuming that the FAQ have surely by now been published.


Don't shoot the messenger. Pony is trying to help and I am sure he is in a very uncomfortable position with this.


----------



## Lazlo123

ChuckyBox said:


> A lot of people seem to be focused on this point. My guess is that it is a red herring brought on by a not-quite-thorough update of the service agreement. I'm fairly sure that whatever plan you are on -- bundled or service-only -- will continue at the price you were paying when you were under contract. Pony's post seems to indicate that, and I assume when they've got a complete set of answers to our questions, they'll clarify.
> 
> Just from a customer-retention point of view, it is always best to let sleeping dogs lie. Raising people's rates makes them think about something that has become automatic, and that leads to considering other options. Just look at this thread as an example. Raising rates for new customers is another story.


I am not yet a customer though... so that's why i'm focusing on it... do i buy from best buy or from the website? what would you do?


----------



## kido

Maybe we can all travel to their corporate offices and burn them to the ground. That would teach them to never raise prices ever again.  It's just business. As ChuckyBox pointed out, if you don't want to pay, move along then. Set up a mythtv box, buy a new Vista MCE, beg the cable companies to let you rent their DVR, cut down that tree in your backyard to get a clear satellite signal, or start your own DVR company and drive TiVo out of business. Whatever. I see these price changes as being not great for certain consumers, but probably necessary for TiVo.


----------



## Stormspace

Lazlo123 said:


> I am not yet a customer though... so that's why i'm focusing on it... do i buy from best buy or from the website? what would you do?


What I'd do and did, is buy directly from TiVo. Especially if you are getting a Series 2 TiVo with a bundled deal.


----------



## Lazlo123

Stormspace said:


> Especially if you are getting a Series 2 TiVo with a bundled deal.


Why's that? The reason i would have gone with best buy is because i wouldn't have had to pay a lump sum all at once and get interest free financing for a few months (credit card) plus if something went wrong i could just take the tivo back to the store rather than ship it back to tivo. But how often, in anyone's experience, have you had to do that? I don't mind all that much prepaying for 3 years... when sprint was first starting up i thought it was great because i didn't have to commit to a service agreement of any length of time... here i am 7 or 8 years later and i just only switched carriers last may...


----------



## Stormspace

Lazlo123 said:


> Why's that? The reason i would have gone with best buy is because i wouldn't have had to pay a lump sum all at once and get interest free financing for a few months (credit card) plus if something went wrong i could just take the tivo back to the store rather than ship it back to tivo. But how often, in anyone's experience, have you had to do that? I don't mind all that much prepaying for 3 years... when sprint was first starting up i thought it was great because i didn't have to commit to a service agreement of any length of time... here i am 7 or 8 years later and i just only switched carriers last may...


It looks like no matter how you do it you're going to have to agree to a commitment period. When I bought mine a month ago there was a one time 49.00 DVR fee and and the monthly rate varied based on the time I wanted to commit. My out of pocket was the 49.00 plus one months service.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

ChuckyBox said:


> I'm fairly sure that whatever plan you are on -- bundled or service-only -- will continue at the price you were paying when you were under contract. Pony's post seems to indicate that, and I assume when they've got a complete set of answers to our questions, they'll clarify.


this is the point I want some clarity around. I bought a bundle deal from TiVo to pay 155.40 for a year of service and a DT. It was a very sweet deal for sure. Now when the year is over do I go by what was there at the time of commit to a year and pay 6.95 a month until such time as I cancel the DT or do I have to commit to 3 years to pay 6.95? 
I have not seen this answered directly yet in any statements from TiVo.


----------



## ParrtHd2

I don't know if this help you guys but I just got off the phone with customer service. I was calling to activate a S2 Dual Tuner that I bought last Friday (10/3/06) and was able to get the old rate. Appentaly if you have purchased a unit within the last month they will give you the old rate with the one year commenment.


----------



## classicsat

Dajad said:


> FYI, for those looking for a TiVo alternative given the new pricing model. Here's a review of the upcoming Vista Media Center due out on January 31, 2007:
> 
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=71
> 
> And most importantly - there are no monthly guide data fees to use it!
> 
> If you have a *[XBox] *360 as I do and a reasonably powerful computer that it is networked to (as I do) and you are purchasing Vista (as I will) there will be no cost to using it.
> 
> ...Dale
> 
> *[Edit to add "Xbox" in front of 360]*


As an alternative to the new inane pricing policy, maybe. As a replacement to a standalone DVR appliance (as TiVo is), maybe not, for some anyway.

Currently there is no fee for Microsoft's guide data service, but what I've seen of the EULA leaves it open for Microsoft to eventually charge a fee.



> guide data fees


TiVos service fee covers more than guide data and the infrastucture to collect and deliver it, despite the fact that is pretty well all that is delivered in the call home.

About iVOD:

I don't think Tivo could have done it then, at least without significantly adding cost to the hardware, at least for the hardware side of things.

If they really wanted to, they could have made an MP4 playback capable DVR well before now (I am thinking of the S2.5s), but not as far back as you think.


----------



## sfox7076

As a bankruptcy lawyer, the comments about customers versus secured and unsecured creditors is a really simplistic view of this whole thing. There are a lot of issues that would be involved in a Tivo chapter 11. First off, if Tivo were to file for protection under chapter 11, and would want to reorganize, they are going to have to keep their customer base, so there will be a big push to keep providing the services they have provided. However, there is the possibility that the lifetime contracts would be too burdensome for them to continue to perform (though I don't see how it is that much more to cater to me with lifetime, and give the same service to the guy down the hall with the monthly). What Tivo could do in that case is move to reject the executory contracts that it has with all lifetime subscribers. Now there are arguments for saying that there is no longer any performance required on the side of the Tivo user, so it may not be executory, but providing network access or phone access is probably enough to make the contract executory. If they reject those contracts, you would most likely have a general unsecured, pre-petition claim against Tivo for service over the lifetime of your unit. What that amount translates into is unknown, but your claim would be made, and then if any would even be paid to unsecureds, you would get a percentage of your claim in cash... When that happened, Tivo would lose a lot of customers. So much so that I doubt they would ever do it, unless the company was liquidating.

As for the secured creditor comment, secured creditors get paid first out of their collateral, not out of unencumbered property. To look at it simplistically, for example, if I have a house with a mortgage, but I also own the world's largest diamond, if I file for bankruptcy, the bank that holds the mortgage only has first priority over the proceeds from the house. The rest of their claim, to the extent one exists, is unsecured and shares in the proceeds from the diamond like all the other unsecured creditors...

Shawn


----------



## Einselen

ZeoTiVo said:


> this is the point I want some clarity around. I bought a bundle deal from TiVo to pay 155.40 for a year of service and a DT. It was a very sweet deal for sure. Now when the year is over do I go by what was there at the time of commit to a year and pay 6.95 a month until such time as I cancel the DT or do I have to commit to 3 years to pay 6.95?
> I have not seen this answered directly yet in any statements from TiVo.


Before my understanding was that you would have to commit to a year to get the $12.95 or $6.95 after the bundle was over and then after that year it would be month by month.


----------



## DrewTivo

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Sorry if that seems harsh, but even the new, allegedly simpler pricing plans are ridiculously complicated. When I bought my 1st TiVo the service was something like $7/mo or $199/lifetime. Simple!


I disagree that the new plans are ridiculously complicated. They're not, at least for new customers. Other than that the prices seem to have increased, they are simpler.

Nearly every problem here relates to how this affects existing customers, their existing units, and any new/replacement units they get. And, with respect to those units, whether the old pricing will change at any point or not. _That_ is ridiculously complicated, or at least not well explained.


----------



## ChuckyBox

Lazlo123 said:


> I am not yet a customer though... so that's why i'm focusing on it... do i buy from best buy or from the website? what would you do?


The web site is the way to go. With Best Buy, you'll have to buy the box, then file the rebate paperwork and wait three months for your rebate. Even with a 0% card, that's more of a pain than just going to tivo.com and picking a box and a plan.

The worst you'll do is $19.95/month, so it doesn't really matter which you pick for the service plan. If you go for a longer term monthly (the $14.95 2-year plan seems like a good option), then this weird discrepancy between service-only and bundled _might_ come into play (though probably not), so you're better off going to tivo.com.

But it's not going to turn into a disaster in either case, so just do what is more convenient. Your worst case is the same you have with any contract, be it your cell phone, your car lease, you mortgage (or apartment lease) or whatever: you sign the thing and then just past your opt-out period, something dramatically changes in your life. In this case you might be on the hook for $200, which I'm guessing would be the least of your problems.

If you want the box today, just go to BB and get it. If you can wait a couple of days, order it online.


----------



## ChuckyBox

ZeoTiVo said:


> this is the point I want some clarity around. I bought a bundle deal from TiVo to pay 155.40 for a year of service and a DT. It was a very sweet deal for sure. Now when the year is over do I go by what was there at the time of commit to a year and pay 6.95 a month until such time as I cancel the DT or do I have to commit to 3 years to pay 6.95?
> I have not seen this answered directly yet in any statements from TiVo.


Yeah, that's the tricky case because you are actually changing the _class_ of your service from bundled to MSD. My opinion (and you know exactly how much weight that carries with TiVo) is that you should get the automatic bounce to $6.95 MSD.

But I think it is this kind of issue that is holding up our getting firm answers. There are a lot of little details with existing customers, and they need to make sure they are giving the right answers. Either that, or they plan to bounce you to $13.95 unless you commit, and they don't want to say that for fear of the freak-out.


----------



## ChuckyBox

DrewTivo said:


> _That_ is ridiculously complicated, or at least not well explained.


At this point it is both. After they explain all of the options and special cases, it will merely be ridiculously complicated.


----------



## Gai-jin

Lazlo123 said:


> I am not yet a customer though... so that's why i'm focusing on it... do i buy from best buy or from the website? what would you do?


Can't shoot him if we can't find him!


----------



## jgickler

ChuckyBox said:


> Yeah, that's the tricky case because you are actually changing the _class_ of your service from bundled to MSD. My opinion (and you know exactly how much weight that carries with TiVo) is that you should get the automatic bounce to $6.95 MSD.
> 
> But I think it is this kind of issue that is holding up our getting firm answers. There are a lot of little details with existing customers, and they need to make sure they are giving the right answers. Either that, or they plan to bounce you to $13.95 unless you commit, and they don't want to say that for fear of the freak-out.


Unfortunately, the lack of response from Tivo leads me to suspect the later possibility.

The new prices were available on Sunday according to this thread, and we still do not have answers to most of the questions, only vague promises and information on two very specific cases. I can understand having to update an FAQ when new questions arise, but I can't fathom the ineptitude it would take to announce a new pricing scheme ( not just new prices) and not have some sort of FAQ. There is not even a basic FAQ that answers the simple questions. At a minimum they should just have to reword whatever info they give to the CS people.

But we still have nothing, and frankly to me that just indicates delaying the delivery of bad news.


----------



## Gai-jin

jgickler said:


> But we still have nothing, and frankly to me that just indicates delaying the delivery of bad news.


I suspect this is correct.


----------



## TiVoPony

An FAQ has been posted here.

Pony


----------



## Dajad

Thanks for the FAQ Pony.



classicsat said:


> TiVos service fee covers more than guide data and the infrastucture to collect and deliver it, despite the fact that is pretty well all that is delivered in the call home.


Of course TiVo has costs that must be recovered. From the users perspective, from my perspective, the monthly fee only gets me guide data and nothing more. Yes, they also, sometimes update the software. And in several instances they've "updated" the software and given me less than what I had before. That's nice when they give me new features but my preference would be a business model where t hey sell me the box at a price that is profitable - period with no extra subscription fees. So, the basic upfront purchase price should include enough of margin to be profitable - like 99% of other consumer electronics manufactured produts. If they make upgrades, they could choose to give them free or charge for them (as they did wit hthe multi-room options and other upgrades in the past. Consumers should be able to choose if they want the upgrade for a fee or not. I've said it here many times, I'd rather pay a much larger up-front fee (or at least have that as an option like we did with lifetime) then have a never-ending commitment to paying TiVo monthly fees for the rest of the products life for nothing more than guide data.

...Dale


----------



## classicsat

Dajad said:


> Thanks for the FAQ Pony.
> 
> That's nice when they give me new features but my preference would be a business model where t hey sell me the box at a price that is profitable - period with no extra subscription fees.


You preferences are nice and all, but the fact is, for the Series 2 and newer boxes, the service fee covers more than just guide data.


----------



## mnw2000

Tivo is competing against DVRs from cable systems that have NO PRODUCT COSTS, NO COMMITMENTS, NO TERMINATION FEES. 

Tivo will also have competition from PC software (like ReplayTV) that have NO PRODUCT COSTS (except for a tuner card if your PC doesn't have one), NO COMMITMENTS, NO TERMINATION FEES.

Tivo has a new pricing plan that may or may not include PRODUCT COSTS ($800 for a Series 3), require COMMITTMENTS and have a $200 TERMINATION FEE.

Three strikes, your out!

Marc


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## 1283

Comcast DVR: I'm not paying $70/month for it.

PC DVR: I wouldn't even consider it. I buy a PC for PC usage. I buy a DVR for DVR usage.

TiVo: Cost of S3 will be paid off in two years with the Comcast monthly savings. At the end of the two years, my lifetimed S3 will be worth many hundreds of dollars.

Three pluses, TiVo is in.


----------



## ashu

mnw2000 said:


> Three strikes, *your *out!
> 
> Marc


It's *you're*, and you're wrong.


----------



## Gai-jin

c3 said:


> Comcast DVR: I'm not paying $70/month for it.
> 
> PC DVR: I wouldn't even consider it. I buy a PC for PC usage. I buy a DVR for DVR usage.
> 
> TiVo: Cost of S3 will be paid off in two years with the Comcast monthly savings. At the end of the two years, my lifetimed S3 will be worth many hundreds of dollars.
> 
> Three pluses, TiVo is in.


Except you keep throwing around the $70 number which is mostly a charge for cable TV. I pay about 75 a month for cable and internet currently. I could add a dvr for about $5 a month. I'm sure comcast charges somewhere in the same ballpark for the dvr fee. What channels you want has no bearing on the cost of the dvr rental.

And it saves you $800 for equipment that will likely not be worth half that at the end of a 3 year contract.


----------



## ashu

Gai-jin said:


> And it saves you $800 for equipment that will likely not be worth half that at the end of a 3 year contract.


That's STILL less depreciation than any PC or Mac or car you've ever bought in your whole life. So, what's your point?


----------



## 1283

Why would I want to pay $70/month for contents I don't watch? With TiVo, I can pay Comcast just for the channels I want.

What 3-year contract? I have S3 with lifetime service.


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## HDTiVo

What were the prices for 1,2,3 yr prepay services for boxes bought at retail before this announcement?


----------



## Gai-jin

ashu said:


> That's STILL less depreciation than any PC or Mac or car you've ever bought in your whole life. So, what's your point?


Well, to start, it's not a PC, mac, or car.

There's also the fact that anything which goes down in value is not an investment, contrary to the apparen't beliefs of some users here.

Certainly if you've got the cash to waste and a S3 tivo is what you think will bring you the most enjoyment, feel free. Personally, there are much better places for my money to go.


----------



## Gai-jin

c3 said:


> Why would I want to pay $70/month for contents I don't watch? With TiVo, I can pay Comcast just for the channels I want.
> 
> What 3-year contract? I have S3 with lifetime service.


I find it hard to believe comcast won't let you get a dvr without $70 a month worth of channels. Perhaps you didn't ask the right people. Each cable franchise seems to play differently, but Here I could get an HD/DVR box from them without subscribing to any digital channels. Other places, I know people have gone the route of signing up for digital/hd/dvr and cancelling the digital portion a week later. I suspect you could make it happen if you wanted to.

So, you've paid 400-500 for lifetime service, plus 800 for the tivo. Let's see, $1300, the way I figure it you'd have to pay $10 a month for the cable co's dvr for over 10 years to break even. And I'd be surprised if your S3 tivo lasts anywhere near that long.


----------



## 1283

I have already asked about the $70/month price. People in AVSForum have also confirmed it. If you don't believe me, there's nothing I can do.

I've already posted my cost comparisons. Lifetimed S3 breakeven point for me is less than two years. At the end of two years, I still have a lifetimed S3. With Comcast, absolutely nothing.


----------



## HDTiVo

What were the prices for 1,2,3 yr prepay bundles for S2s and S3s before this announcement?


----------



## Einselen

HDTiVo said:


> What were the prices for 1,2,3 yr prepay services for boxes bought at retail before this announcement?


$155.40, $299, $369 but then the 3 yr had the promo of being $299


----------



## Fofer

Gai-jin said:


> And I'd be surprised if your S3 tivo lasts anywhere near that long.


In 3-4 years there will be other DVRs out there which will make a Series 3 look like amateur hour. (They might even be from TiVo.) But the "series 3" as we know it will be selling for $49 on eBay.


----------



## Einselen

Fofer said:


> In 3-4 years there will be other DVRs out there which will make a Series 3 look like amateur hour. (They might even be from TiVo.) But the "series 3" as we know it will be selling for $49 on eBay.


Unless it is lifetimed, which I think it would get more then $49. Don't forget inflation of the dollar too. So is that $49 today dollar or the dollar of 2010? The lifetime of S1 is still going strong (and some has to do with the VIP program) but even before that and after April when lifetime was cutoff, lifetime units were doing reasonable. Esentially selling for what the original owner paid.


----------



## Shawn95GT

I think the S3 is about the only Tivo that has any value without any service attached (lifetime etc).

That was the main deciding factor for my going for lifetime on the three S2 units I picked up before I got my S3.

I don't think we'll see $50 S3s in 2 years time but stranger things have happened.


----------



## samo

Fofer said:


> In 3-4 years there will be other DVRs out there which will make a Series 3 look like amateur hour. (They might even be from TiVo.) But the "series 3" as we know it will be selling for $49 on eBay.


I don't know much about cable DVRs, but as of today both Vip622 (Dish) and HR20 (DirecTV) make Series 3 look like amateur hour already.


----------



## Shawn95GT

samo said:


> I don't know much about cable DVRs, but as of today both Vip622 (Dish) and HR20 (DirecTV) make Series 3 look like amateur hour already.


Well, if you have cable as your content provider a 622 or HR20 are going to make nice doorstops, so the comparison is kind of moot.

Please share what the either does that so badly shames the S3.

Thanks!


----------



## DCIFRTHS

samo said:


> I don't know much about cable DVRs, but as of today both Vip622 (Dish) and HR20 (DirecTV) make Series 3 look like amateur hour already.


What features do they offer over the S3?

Oops. Someone else already asked this...


----------



## samo

Shawn95GT said:


> Well, if you have cable as your content provider a 622 or HR20 are going to make nice doorstops, so the comparison is kind of moot.
> 
> Please share what the either does that so badly shames the S3.
> 
> Thanks!


I didn't say "shames", but I did say "make Series 3 look like amateur hour".
In my opinion the UI on both units looks much more professional. I never liked "DOS" looking screens on TiVo even from very beginning. In seven years the look and feel is almost a same as it was on my series 1. I like PIP while browsing guide. I like FSI. I like caller ID on screen. I like little things like one button jump to "to do list". I like RF remotes. I like to have multiple favorite channels lists. I like new and updated features instead of Kids Zone that I couldn't care less. I like to be able to order PPV and interactive features. Vip622 and HR20 are different, but both have professional and complete look - TiVo doesn't. HR20 still has few minor bugs, Vip622 is rock solid. Both do a great job recording HDTV and are very fast. Initially I was going to try which one is better, but decided to keep both (never hurts to have few extra tuners). I may be biased because I been using alternative DVRs alongside with TiVos for many years, but I'm willing to bet that for somebody who never had DVR both satellite DVRs will look and feel better than S3. Of course neither one does any good to people who can't get satellite or don't have locals or need to watch HDTV "on budget". But if you have a choice between satellite and cable - these DVRs are cheap (I paid $200 each) and good.
You may have a learning curve if you never used anything but TiVo, but it is not a brain surgery.


----------



## HDTiVo

HDTiVo said:


> What were the prices for 1,2,3 yr prepay bundles for S2s and S3s before this announcement?


Anyone remember?


----------



## HDTiVo

HDTiVo said:


> I have an S3 @ MSD still under 30 day trial. The other 4 S2s are old no commitment MSDs (3) and 1 LT.
> 
> In the next few days I will do one of the following:
> 
> 1. Send back the S3.
> 
> 2. Cancel MSD on the S3 and resub for 3yrs @ $6.95.
> 
> I have no intention of retiring the LT S2 which I would after one year if I did the Lifetime Transfer. I will not buy another S2 in the future - I had considered going DT.
> 
> My plans for a multi-S3 (4) system are now cancelled. I no longer plan to use TiVoes as the heart of my Digital Media Network.


Here's hoping that Monday afternoon will bring some clarity to the "what happens to $6.95 MSDs under one year commit?" question to help me make my decision.

It would have been nice if TiVo could have introduced at least partial MRV/TTC&G before expecting buyers of unsubsidized S3 boxes to make multi-year decisions about service price increases and commitment periods.


----------



## Fofer

TiVo also "committed" to TiVoToGo for the Mac about two years ago.










Maybe I can make the same kind of "committment" with my subscription.


----------



## Figaro

Fofer said:


> TiVo also "committed" to TiVoToGo for the Mac about two years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I can make the same kind of "committment" with my subscription.


 :up: :up:


----------



## bicker

dbtom said:


> Always is a strong word. In some cases a judge will consider the customers to be more secure than the bank or at least with similar priority. If you don't give customers some priority, your business will dry up instantaneously in bankruptcy.


Perhaps, but one issue raised was a liquidation of assets, in which case that's irrelevant. In that case, customers would get only what the purchaser of the customer base would be willing to offer, what they probably would have offered to attract those customers away from the bankrupt competitor regardless.


----------



## Einselen

HDTiVo said:


> Anyone remember?


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4569585&&#post4569585

Why do you keep asking when it was already posted on this very same page?


----------



## Shawn95GT

samo said:


> I didn't say "shames", but I did say "make Series 3 look like amateur hour".
> In my opinion the UI on both units looks much more professional. I never liked "DOS" looking screens on TiVo even from very beginning. In seven years the look and feel is almost a same as it was on my series 1. I like PIP while browsing guide. I like FSI. I like caller ID on screen. I like little things like one button jump to "to do list". I like RF remotes. I like to have multiple favorite channels lists. I like new and updated features instead of Kids Zone that I couldn't care less. I like to be able to order PPV and interactive features. Vip622 and HR20 are different, but both have professional and complete look - TiVo doesn't. HR20 still has few minor bugs, Vip622 is rock solid. Both do a great job recording HDTV and are very fast. Initially I was going to try which one is better, but decided to keep both (never hurts to have few extra tuners). I may be biased because I been using alternative DVRs alongside with TiVos for many years, but I'm willing to bet that for somebody who never had DVR both satellite DVRs will look and feel better than S3. Of course neither one does any good to people who can't get satellite or don't have locals or need to watch HDTV "on budget". But if you have a choice between satellite and cable - these DVRs are cheap (I paid $200 each) and good.
> You may have a learning curve if you never used anything but TiVo, but it is not a brain surgery.


Interesting. (Really!).

I've read a lot about the 622 and most of it was complaints. I suppose you could say the same of the S3 if the were to read the S3 forum here.

I big limitation that comes to mind is the limit of 288 timers as described here. On the surface it seems like 'no big deal' but if every occurance of a show counts as a timer, whether it records it or not I'm sure this would bite me in the rear (40 SPs and growing on the S3 alone!).

My sister just had a 622 installed as here new place - I'll make it a point to check it out.


----------



## HDTiVo

Einselen said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4569585&&#post4569585
> 
> Why do you keep asking when it was already posted on this very same page?


I asked two different questions. Why do you repeatedly answer one of them instead of answering each of them once?


----------



## Einselen

HDTiVo said:


> I asked two different questions. Why do you repeatedly answer one of them instead of answering each of them once?


Misread it so here we go, should cover it all:

*Bundles*
Prepay 1 Yr $224
Prepay 2 Yr $369
Prepay 3 Yr $469

Monthly 1 Yr $19.95 (Total $239.40)
Monthly 2 Yr $18.95 (Total $454.80)
Monthly 3 Yr $16.95 (Total $610.20)

Unit cost for the bundle S2 ST 80 hr was $0, S2 DT 80 hr was $30, S2 DT 180 hr was $130.

*Service Only*
Prepay 1 Yr $155.40
Prepay 2 Yr $299
Prepay 3 Yr $369

Could do 12.95/month with 1 yr committment

Did I cover it all?


----------



## HDTiVo

Einselen:

Thank you.

Do you remember the box fee and bundle prepay $ for the S3?

Weren't the S2 2&3yr prepays at the same price for some months?


----------



## atmuscarella

There has been some mention of Dishnetwork's ViP622 HD receiver in this thread. For anyone that is interested it receiver a CNet Editors choice award among HD DVRs with an excellent rating of 8.7 which was higher than TiVo's Series 3 8.3 rating or Direct TV's HR20's 8.1 rating.

http://reviews.cnet.com/Dish_Network_ViP622/4505-6474_7-31778299.html

Given CNet's review and the fact that you can get a whole Dish ViP622 system for $200 plus $6 per month for the DVR fee, I would think people going HD that can get satellite would have to give it serious consideration before buying a Series 3 and going with cable cards.

Thanks,


----------



## bidger

If you'd have to rely on distants for any of the major networks (ABC, NBC, etc.), I'd suggest that now isn't the time to be considering Dish Network.


----------



## Fofer

atmuscarella said:


> There has been some mention of Dishnetwork's ViP622 HD receiver in this thread. For anyone that is interested it receiver a CNet Editors choice award among HD DVRs with an excellent rating of 8.7 which was higher than TiVo's Series 3 8.3 rating or Direct TV's HR20's 8.1 rating.


More to the point... units like this, from other manufacturers and other cable/satellite providers will follow. And they will improve.


----------



## Shawn95GT

In all fairness, The S3 isn't going to help much in that regard either .

I 'almost' went to dish when Voom went dark but I didn't jump for two reasons:

1. Dish was WAY more expensive than Voom for a LOT less HD Content. Dish may be the big boy on the block now for HD content, but they still arent' what Voom was a couple years ago. Including my locals I had over 50 HD channels at my disposal!

2. Cable HD / HD DVR was availalble with no contract and no up-front costs.

As it turned out, I sent the POS SA8300HD back because it was costing about the same as Voom for a lot less content on only one of my TVs. On the plus side I got the DVR bug and bought my first Tivo. I've been sold since.

I only tried Tivo due to the raving reviews of co-workers. If I was starting with nothing today a new S3 would be a hard sell. I can't say I'm sorry for having picked up my S3 though!


----------



## atmuscarella

bidger: 

I guess if you lived somewhere that dish didn't have network locals for you it would be a problem. But according to dish over 97% of it customers have network locals available. The bigger problem I see with network locals when going HD is if you can get them in HD from dish yet or not. I live near Rochester NY and if I went HD now I couldn't get HD network locals from dish. I can get HD network locals OTA so it wouldn't matter to me but for others having to get HD network locals OTA might be a big problem. 

But the same is true for the Series 3 and cable - in order for it to work your cable company has to have cable cards, digital cable, and be rebroadcasting your network locals in HD. For most people no problem but for some it is a big problem. 

Thanks,


----------



## bidger

atmuscarella said:


> bidger:
> 
> I guess if you lived somewhere that dish didn't have network locals for you it would be a problem.


Which is why I made the stipulation "_if you had to rely on distants_".

I'm in an unserved market and would require 2 of the 4 major nets at this time. I was just giving a heads up for anyone else in a similar situation.

Those in a major market or with good reception for all broadcast networks wouldn't have those concerns.

Oh, and I agree with all the other points you made about HD OTA (ATSC) being a priority and that the S3 may not be the best solution for everyone.


----------



## atmuscarella

bidger; 

Kind of funny we are both from NY State - when I tell most non-New Yorkers where I am from - they always think "Big City". I live in a cable free rural area and you live in an another area where they don't even have a full line up of OTA network channels.  

Have a good one!


----------



## bidger

Yeah, NYC does cloud the minds of out-of-staters who think all NYS is like that.

As fas as OTA, CBS and PBS are over 40 miles away with hilly terrain between. FOX is 16 mi. away, but with a low power transmitter and fairly hilly terrain as well. NBC and ABC are my only grade A and of those two, NBC is the only one doing digital. I call ABC's engineering dept. once every 6 months to get a standard "We're working on it" response.

Back to the topic.


----------



## SnakeEyes

So nothing else from Pony?


----------



## Fofer

SnakeEyes said:


> So nothing else from Pony?


He posted an FAQ:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=325913


----------



## HDTiVo

Fofer said:


> He posted an FAQ:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=325913


Really? 

What made him or TiVo think it was OK to post a half baked FAQ and disappear?

The same thinking that put up the pricing without any FAQ, I suppose.


----------



## SnakeEyes

Fofer said:


> He posted an FAQ:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=325913


So nothing has changed... thanks.


----------



## sfox7076

bicker said:


> Perhaps, but one issue raised was a liquidation of assets, in which case that's irrelevant. In that case, customers would get only what the purchaser of the customer base would be willing to offer, what they probably would have offered to attract those customers away from the bankrupt competitor regardless.


I am not sure that I agree with either of what you two have said.

1) as for the secure comment. We are not secured creditors, we are clearly unsecured. We have no security interest at all. Secured lenders clearly will have priority over Tivo's assets in advance of customers. We could have a priority claim, but I don't see how, unless you argue Tivo is a layaway plan... But, who cares anyway? Tivo has one asset. It's customer base... So, if Tivo craters, we get a claim in the bankruptcy... What is your claim worth? What are the damages if your service contract is canceled? I am not sure what that is worth. But, remember, no bank wants Tivos assets. Either Tivo would be reorganized in a chapter 11 plan where all the old stock is canceled and reissued, or a 363 asset sale will occur.

2) The acquirer of the assets will be a 3rd party that wants to keep the customer base if it buying the assets. So then the issue is how do they keep them? Honor many of the current contracts by having them assumed and assigned to the new party as part of the 363 sale. I think what would likely happen is that Tivo would assume and assign all the contracts that are for a finite period of time and reject all the lifetime subscriptions. They get no revenue from lifetime subscriptions after the initial payment. The money came in and has been used to float operations. Those contracts have no benefit to Tivo. They reject them and either you don't want your Tivo to be a paperweight or you buy their new service.

Shawn


----------



## HDTiVo

sfox7076 said:


> They get no revenue from lifetime subscriptions after the initial payment. The money came in and has been used to float operations. Those contracts have no benefit to Tivo.


There are revenues that come from advertising, etal.


----------



## MickeS

Gai-jin said:


> There is NO reason a customer who already owns his hardware should have to pay prices which include new hardware spread out into monthly payments.


This is the only thing that bugs me with all of this, and what bugged me with the previous plan too: TiVo is emulating the cell-phone company model BUT cell-phone companies never make you commit to a certain time period if you sign up with your old phone.

If I have an old TiVo laying around, I should NEVER have to commit to 1, 2 or 3 years to subscribe it. It's already paid for, TiVo, you've gotten your money for it - stop f**king your customers up the a**.

TiVo is screwing up by applying the same restrictive subscription deals to everyone whether they are a new customer or not. It reeks of desperation, and will only piss off existing customers.

Idiots.


----------



## Figaro

MickeS said:


> This is the only thing that bugs me with all of this, and what bugged me with the previous plan too: TiVo is emulating the cell-phone company model BUT cell-phone companies never make you commit to a certain time period if you sign up with your old phone.
> 
> If I have an old TiVo laying around, I should NEVER have to commit to 1, 2 or 3 years to subscribe it. It's already paid for, TiVo, you've gotten your money for it - stop f**king your customers up the a**.
> 
> TiVo is screwing up by applying the same restrictive subscription deals to everyone whether they are a new customer or not. It reeks of desperation, and will only piss off existing customers.
> 
> Idiots.


Sooo I am not quite sure of your feelings on this matter


----------



## MickeS

chessplayer said:


> Nicely said. It's mind-boggling that TiVo is trying to spin this as a price drop. Very few potential new customers will like the new pricing or be happy about a 3 year commitment.


How do you know this?

I'm guessing TiVo has looked at what commitment periods people choose when they buy service, and based their pricing on that. I guarantee they know a lot more about what people buy from them than you know.


----------



## yuckydog

Well, I called up TiVo to find out what was going on with this new pricing plan and was ready to cancel my newly activated DT when they informed me that they would put my new DT under the old $12.95 plan (so with the MSD it would come to $6.95). Your results may vary as I had 2 lifetime S2s, 2 monthly S2s and 1 monthly DT already on my account going into the "negotiations."  Of course, how many people I've convinced to get a TiVo is incalculable!


----------



## timckelley

yuckydog said:


> Of course, how many people I've convinced to get a TiVo is incalculable!


In my case, I've already calculated this figure at "zero". I have tried talking people into TiVo over the years, and not a single solitary one of them has gone ahead and bought one.


----------



## samo

timckelley said:


> In my case, I've already calculated this figure at "zero". I have tried talking people into TiVo over the years, and not a single solitary one of them has gone ahead and bought one.


Some cheap friend you have. . Don't feel bad, my record is exactly the same. Typical reaction after showing nice things TiVo does - "Gee.., thats nice!", typical reaction after I tell them how much it cost - "Are you nuts?". I actually convinced some of my friends and relatives to get DVRs, but not TiVo. I think that $10/month is a mental barrier that people can't cross for the free hardware, and $5/month for a hardware that they have to purchase. Doesn't make much sense, but that is what I'm finding out with cheap friends of mine (who are well to do by the way).


----------



## minckster

samo said:


> Some cheap friend you have. . Don't feel bad, my record is exactly the same. Typical reaction after showing nice things TiVo does - "Gee.., thats nice!", typical reaction after I tell them how much it cost - "Are you nuts?". I actually convinced some of my friends and relatives to get DVRs, but not TiVo. I think that $10/month is a mental barrier that people can't cross for the free hardware, and $5/month for a hardware that they have to purchase. Doesn't make much sense, but that is what I'm finding out with cheap friends of mine (who are well to do by the way).


+1

Not a single successful TiVo conversion here.

I've finally shut-up about TiVo, partly because I was annoying my friends, partly because TiVo's software isn't as good as it used to be*, but mostly because my friends just aren't biting. They could easily afford TiVo, most have HDTV, and a few have really expensive A/V systems, but they don't see TiVo as worth the additional expense. At $19.95/month, I agree.

* Yeah, yeah, yeah TiVo will reduce the slowdowns from 7.3 but then they'll add other features. Three steps back, one step forward...


----------



## 1283

For a *really cheap* person like me who pays Comcast for limited basic only, TiVo is definitely the way to go. If you're already paying a lot for cable subscriptions ($60+ in my area), then the cable company's DVR may have the pricing edge.


----------



## bicker

sfox7076 said:


> I am not sure that I agree with either of what you two have said.


Actually, I believe you and I agree... we disagree with the others.



> 1) as for the secure comment. We are not secured creditors, we are clearly unsecured.


Absolutely. That was my point. We have lowest priority.



> 2) The acquirer of the assets will be a 3rd party that wants to keep the customer base if it buying the assets. So then the issue is how do they keep them? Honor many of the current contracts by having them assumed and assigned to the new party as part of the 363 sale. I think what would likely happen is that Tivo would assume and assign all the contracts that are for a finite period of time and reject all the lifetime subscriptions.


What I believe would most probably happen is that all current definite-term contracts would honored, and holders of lifetime subscriptions would be offered a free year.


----------



## Kharizzmatik

So I'm under the assumption that the new prices only effect you IF it causes your rate to go DOWN... if their new prices are higher than what you're paying now then it isn't changed.... right?

I've been paying $17 the past few months for a 3 yr commitment with my S2 DT, and had no idea about the price change until i just saw TIVO only charged me $13 this month...


----------



## maki

Honestely, why is everyone so afraid of committment? The longest is 3 years and I don't know why you would buy a TiVo without planning on keeping it that or longer. If you really need out, pay your way out.

People signup for 2 years of $50-$100/month cell phone service all the time - how is that any better?


----------



## maki

Kharizzmatik said:


> So I'm under the assumption that the new prices only effect you IF it causes your rate to go DOWN... if their new prices are higher than what you're paying now then it isn't changed.... right?
> 
> I've been paying $17 the past few months for a 3 yr commitment with my S2 DT, and had no idea about the price change until i just saw TIVO only charged me $13 this month...


Wow! Looking forward to my next charge.


----------



## Fofer

maki said:


> People signup for 2 years of $50-$100/month cell phone service all the time - how is that any better?


It's not better. We hate that too. And at least with cell service, the hardware price is often subsidized to make the "contract" worthwhile. And our usage often varies monthly. And usage of the cell phone is more "critical" to many of us... than timeshifting TV.


----------



## maki

Fofer said:


> It's not better. We hate that too. And at least with cell service, the hardware price is often subsidized to make the "contract" worthwhile. And our usage often varies monthly. .


I don't know... from tivo.com the boxes (excluding S3) are less than retail. I don't know what the current rebate brings a retail box down to, but either way, the box isn't retail price. Obviously if you want the S3 you know you're going to pay a premium.



Fofer said:


> And usage of the cell phone is more "critical" to many of us... than timeshifting TV.


I think anyone who watches TV and has experienced TiVo would be quite disappointed to be without it, especially since it's significantly less costly than a cell phone.

Personally, I use a Cingular prepaid phone... $25/3 months. Of course, I don't use 1500 minutes a month. But I see a lot of people stuck in contracts at $50 a month and they use a fraction of what their plan includes.


----------



## Topshelf

I tried reading this whole thread but got a headache several pages in. Quick question...I currently have 2 ST 540's. If I buy a new DT 180 hour box retail (even though I've never seen one in the stores) can I just move that into my second boxes sub, retire that old box and not incur any additional monthly charges or long term service plans? I've been meaning to pick up a new DT due to the insane slowness of my main box, but figured I'd wait for holiday specials. Guess that was a bad idea.


----------



## 1283

Yes, but you cannot get the $180 rebate.


----------



## Topshelf

Thanks for the quick reply!


----------



## timckelley

Yes, I had forgotten about that rebate business. If it were me, I'd rather sign a 3 year contract than lose a $180 rebate.


----------



## larrs

So has something changed here?

If I activate a second (or third or fourth or...) box I buy on E*, what is the monthly? Do I have to go the three year committment to get $6.95 or not?


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## MickeS

larrs said:


> So has something changed here?
> 
> If I activate a second (or third or fourth or...) box I buy on E*, what is the monthly? Do I have to go the three year committment to get $6.95 or not?


Yes, you have to get the 3-year commitment to get $6.95/month.


----------



## MacDude

OK. First off, my timing stinks.

I have a S2 with a lifetime service plan. Like so many others, recently bought an HD TV (42" Panasonic). I have Comcast Digital (with 7 HD channels! Woot!  ).

I wanted to get a second S2DT to use on the main TV and then put the first one on our second TV. But I seem to have waited too long. 

As I see it, I have the following options:

1. Do nothing. (wait for new tech and or things to settle down)
2. Buy an S3 with a three year plan ($800 + $300) (MSD still confuses me on this)
3. Buy an S3 and transfer my lifetime service ($800 +$100) and retire/sell the S2.
4. #3 but keep the S2 and figure out the MSD plan.
5. Move to Comcast PVR (+ $10/mo?)
6. Buy a S2DT ($70) and pay for one year of higher service ($20/mo) and then it reverts to $7/mo (This according to a service rep on the phone).

Are these viable? I find it hard to tell. 

BTW- I refuse to fall for that rounding stuff. The S3 is $800, not $799.


----------



## Einselen

MacDude said:


> 6. Buy a S2DT ($70) and pay for one year of higher service ($20/mo) and then it reverts to $7/mo (This according to a service rep on the phone).


I believe it will only revet to $7/month if you sign up for 3 yrs.

Since you have lifetime you qualify for MSD but you must purchase the unit retail. The MSD prices are $13.95/month with 1 yr agreement, $8.95/month with 2 year agreement and $6.95/month with three year agreement.

The service is tied to the account not the box but by the current rebate terms if you go that option you will forfeit the rebate. In the future we won't know if the S3 will have rebates and if so what those terms will entail.


----------



## Einselen

MacDude said:


> 3. Buy an S3 and transfer my lifetime service ($800 +$100) and retire/sell the S2.


Just FYI the transfer would be $200 also right now you can get a S3 from weaknees for $680 AC and a $50 Giftcard.

Here is how:

1. Added the $799 Series 3 tivo to my cart from here:
Series 3 tivo
http://www.weaknees.com/series-3-hd-tivo.php

2. Used the coupon code HDtivo100 (from an e-mail) to get $100 off.

3. Then I used Google Checkout to get an instant $10 off. Then used the coupon code google10 (also from e-mail) and got an additional $10 off.

4. Once I finished checkout, then you have to register your order for the $50 gift certificate:

Gift Certificate

http://www.weaknees.com/series3-promo.php

5. They say you get that within 10 days, and if you want the tivo G adapter for broadband, you can then get that here for $9 if you use the GC:

Broadband adapter

http://www.weaknees.com/cart/customer/product.php?productid=56082


----------



## ChuckyBox

MacDude said:


> 3. Buy an S3 and transfer my lifetime service ($800 +$100) and retire/sell the S2.
> 4. #3 but keep the S2 and figure out the MSD plan.


If you transfer the lifetime to the S3 (for $200, not $100) you will get a free year of service on the S2 box you are transferring from. You can use both, as you want, and if you don't like the S3 after using it for a while, it will have good resale value on eBay for a long time. In a year, you can either get the MSD rate (whatever it is) on the S2, or get a new box and pay the bundle price. Or get the comcast DVR. (It is nowhere written that you can't have TiVo _and_ a Comcast DVR.)


----------



## TomP

Well, I got the screws put to me tonight by "TIVO". When I bought the box no where did I see anything about a commitment in any fashion. All I saw that it was a dual tuner, which is not true unless you have both cable and satellite, then you can record one show and watch another, but anyway I got my $150 rebate back and went to cancel my account and the rep. said I had to pay $129.00 to cancel and started to tell me I had agreed to a one year commitment and I told him I had nothing said or saw anything about a "commitment" and to cancel my account. He put me on hold and was doing something and guess what? The phone was cut off. So I made about 4 more call to try and get this mess straightened out but ended having to pay another $12.95 which I just paid on the 13 of Nov. but the tech still said I had to sign up for the three year plan or pay the $129.00. Being disabled I had little choice but to resign up for the three year plan for the $12.95 monthly.
You can be assured that Tivo will never get my business again after this. I'll go "Time Warner" first. I hope some of you read this before the same happens to you.
Good Luck!!!!
TomP


----------



## timckelley

You have a 30 day 100% money back guarantee. Did you try to cancel after your 30 day free look was over?


----------



## CrispyCritter

TomP said:


> Well, I got the screws put to me tonight by "TIVO". When I bought the box no where did I see anything about a commitment in any fashion. All I saw that it was a dual tuner, which is not true unless you have both cable and satellite, then you can record one show and watch another, but anyway I got my $150 rebate back and went to cancel my account and the rep. said I had to pay $129.00 to cancel and started to tell my I had agreed to a one year commitment and I told him I had nothing said or saw anything about a "commitment" and to cancel my account.


What do you expect TiVo to do? I'm sorry it happened, but there's no way that the information about commitment was not there. I can possibly see missing it during the purchase phase if you bought from some non-standard place (all the standard places seem to be pretty good about making the commitment obvious). But I can't see it not being there during the rebate process. It's been very prominent in all the rebates' terms and conditions that I've seen. It costs TiVo far more money to make the dual TiVo than you paid for it (after rebate); they make the difference up during the commitment phase.

Note that your TiVo is a true dual tuner - I have one with just cable and I'm very happy with it recording two shows at once. (It can't control 2 external cable boxes at once, but that's a different issue, and few people have two cable boxes).


----------



## timckelley

Also, during the 30 free days, is it possible to use the TiVo without noticing the committment?


----------



## CrispyCritter

timckelley said:


> You have a 30 day 100% money back guarantee. Did you try to cancel after your 30 day free look was over?


He tried to cancel after getting his rebate *back*. That probably puts it at least 90 days after purchase.


----------



## Y-ASK

TomP said:


> All I saw that it was a dual tuner


If I'm not mistaken when the Dual Tuners came out Tivo pricing policy had already changed by then and you had to sign up for at least a year. So if "all you saw that it was a dual tuner" who's fault is it that you didn't read what you were getting into in the 1st place. I hate sticking up for Tivo. I hate some of the Corp. type decisions that they've made over the last several years, but if you ask me you're in the wrong on this one.

And since you obiviously got a rebate check you must have purchased your Tivo several months ago, why not just wait until your one year signup is done and then close your account. You don't have to pay the $129.00 pay back unless you've signed up for a longer committment when you bought the box.

Sometimes I've just got shake my head at stupid people... Thanks for taking the time to look into the details of your purchase and committment and then coming here to complain with comments like "All I saw". All you saw is what YOU chose to see.

Y-ASK


----------



## timckelley

CrispyCritter said:


> He tried to cancel after getting his rebate *back*. That probably puts it at least 90 days after purchase.


Okay then IMO, he doesn't have a lot of meat in his complaint. It's hard to believe that 90 days went by without him noticing the commitment. In fact, they only briefly give you free guide data, so he had to have signed up (activated) his TiVo. And at the time of activation, they are very clear about this commitment, even if you missed it when you bought the TiVo.

Edit: I just realized a possibility could be that he bought it 3 months ago, but only just now hooked it up, in which case he could only have noticed the commitment requirement had he read the materials at the time of purchase.


----------



## bicker

It's not just that -- the serious gaffs in what he's said (including the utterly erroneous "dual tuner, which is not true unless you have both cable and satellite") call into question his entire message. I wouldn't give his complaints another thought.


----------



## Gai-jin

TomP said:


> Well, I got the screws put to me tonight by "TIVO"...
> TomP


Tom, perhaps a seperate thread would be more approprite, though it does seem like your issue has already been addressed here.


----------



## HDTiVo

TomP's situation is so screwed up, its pretty hard to unwind, but he's in completely the wrong place.

If a TiVo were subject to 3 yrs, it must still be in the 30 day period. No problem to cancel.

Or if it was subed just before that it could still be under 30 days. No problem to cancel.

If not, a dual tuner is no more than 8 months old and it's under one year comitment. No need to sign for 3 years yet. Just cancel before the anniversary. Only problem is the remaining months.

Hey, good news, TomP's got a TiVo someone else can use with only a few months comitment and then toss... someone here must want to take that over.


----------



## minckster

Isn't this page: http://www.tivo.com/4.0.msd.asp at least misleading? Doesn't one need a three year commitment to get the $6.95/month rate? I navigated to the page by clicking on "I have TiVo" in the left column and then "Multi Service Discount" in the main area with the white background.


----------



## Gai-jin

minckster said:


> Isn't this page: http://www.tivo.com/4.0.msd.asp at least misleading? Doesn't one need a three year commitment to get the $6.95/month rate? I navigated to the page by clicking on "I have TiVo" in the left column and then "Multi Service Discount" in the main area with the white background.





> Pay just $6.95 monthly service for additional boxes in the home!
> 
> * All DVRs must be registered to the same account holder.
> * All DVRs must be located and calling from the same TiVo service address.
> * Multi-Service Discount is limited to a maximum of five (5) additional TiVo service subscriptions.
> * TiVo Packages are not eligible for Multi-Service Discount, but are eligible to serve as Qualifying Subscriptions. See full terms and conditions.
> ** TiVo service commitment required*. Early termination fees and other restrictions apply. See tivo.com/policies for details. No early termination fee applies if canceled within 30 days.


Misleading, perhaps. Inaccurate, no.


----------



## marcush

Rebate complaints notwithstanding, I find Tivo's actions in eliminating the lifetime sub and there ever escalating fees both wrongheaded and ultimately self-defeating. I am definitely an alienated fan. As such, I don't know that I will get an S3 box. I am leaning toward an HR10-250. I think Tivo is rapidly pricing itself out of the DVR market. If there goal is to become a software provider to cable companies they are well on the way.


----------



## maki

maki said:


> Wow! Looking forward to my next charge.


Guess not, they charged me the usual $16.95.


----------



## m_jonis

In today's Best Buy Ad it states you can get a Series 2 DT for "free" with 2-year committment and they state that second unit is only $6.95/month

But I thought you could only get that if you did a 3-year agreement?


----------



## GoHokies!

m_jonis said:


> In today's Best Buy Ad it states you can get a Series 2 DT for "free" with 2-year committment and they state that second unit is only $6.95/month
> 
> But I thought you could only get that if you did a 3-year agreement?


Is that in this weeks print ad? Online it still shows $70.00 AR - if there're going to be free this week, I'll gladly pick up an extra for my home office!


----------



## RoyK

GoHokies! said:


> Is that in this weeks print ad? Online it still shows $70.00 AR - if there're going to be free this week, I'll gladly pick up an extra for my home office!


Ad shows $220 Instant Savings - "Free after Mail-In Rebate"
80 Hr TiVo Single Tuner DVR

2 year subscription required. Service fee only $14.95/month. $6.95/month for each additional receiver.

How 'bout that Wake Game?

Roy


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## GoHokies!

Yeah, that's what they had in the store today too (I stopped by since I was in the area), the DT's were still listed at 70 after rebate. I haven't seen a print ad for this week, maybe it's a black friday special. Still haven't seen an S3 in any of the DC area stores that I frequent (Bowie, Annapolis, Arundel Mills and Colombia today).

What a great game - makes me wish that we had the Georgia Tech game over again.


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