# Is It Legal To Own A Digital Cablebox?



## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

A few years ago the U.S. government made a law that people can own their own cable boxes (when all service was analog). Does this apply to non-HD digital cable boxes in use today? My cable operator says "no". Is that correct? Some of the channels I watch have moved from "Extended Basic" to "Digital" Tiers even though they are not in HD. I don't want to pay rent every month for a cable box. Must the cable operator allow me to buy my own box? If so, where can I get one?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I have not seen any plain Jane digital cable boxes for sale. 

Any digital cable box would need a cable card to decrypt the channels which effectively makes them cost prohibitive so I am guessing they don't exist. 

Good Luck,


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

I see. Thanks. If anyone knows something to the contrary, please post to this thread and I'll get the update via E-mail. The Govt. made a wise decision but then technology advanced negating the benefit. Oh, well. I look for the day when consumers can own their own cablecards. The cable operators make enough money as it is without the added $4 monthly fee for the card(s).


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

The cable card mandate was intended to faciliate the ability for consumers to own their own cable box. However it has failed miserably. So to answer your question: Yes it is legal to own a digital cable box. But there's no legal requirement for anyone to sell you one.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Cable boxes are unnecessary if your TV has a cablecard slot built-in. Unfortunately, very few manufacturers incorporate cablecard slots into their sets these days. The whole idea behind cablecard was to free the customer from being shackled to a cable provider's hardware.


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## sddave (May 2, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> Cable boxes are unnecessary if your TV has a cablecard slot built-in.


With the advent of Switched Digital Video. The cablecard by itself cannot tune all digital channels. I have two TV's with cablecards, they can only tune to the local HD channels and about 10% of the other digital channels.


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

I would like to know where to purchase a digital cable box. Does anyone know where I can obtain one? It's worth trying because I'm only trying to get two channels in that aren't part of my "Extended Basic" lineup.


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

Of course if I buy such a box, I don't want to have to rent cablecards from the cable office because doing so defeats the savings of having the box that I would own.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

SpiritualPoet said:


> Of course if I buy such a box, I don't want to have to rent cablecards from the cable office because doing so defeats the savings of having the box that I would own.


You're going to be disappointed then.


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## That Don Guy (Mar 13, 2003)

SpiritualPoet said:


> It's worth trying because I'm only trying to get two channels in that aren't part of my "Extended Basic" lineup.


Pardon me for asking, but even if somebody owns a cable box, doesn't it have to be synchronized somehow to the cable system's servers? There has to be some way at "their end" for the company to know which channels you can receive and which ones you can't.

(If what you are really looking for is a box that can get channels without paying for them, I am fairly certain this is illegal. How much extra per month would it cost you to get the two channels in question? For all we know, the "two channels" you want are InDemand and HBO...)


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

SpiritualPoet said:


> I would like to know where to purchase a digital cable box. Does anyone know where I can obtain one? It's worth trying because I'm only trying to get two channels in that aren't part of my "Extended Basic" lineup.


Do not buy a motorola or sa box if you have comcast. They are stolen and comcast will not activate them. Motorola and sa boxes are not sold to the public. They are only sold to cable company's except in canada.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

SpiritualPoet said:


> I don't want to have to rent cablecards from the cable office because doing so defeats the savings of having the box that I would own.


The fee the cable company charges for the Digital Tier comprises of two components. Rental of the cable box and a charge for the programming in the tier. If you have your own cable box you only save on the cable box rental fee, you still need to pay the programming fee. My local cable co gives the first cable box for free so there's no saving if you don't have it.



That Don Guy said:


> Pardon me for asking, but even if somebody owns a cable box, doesn't it have to be synchronized somehow to the cable system's servers?


Exactly. Most cable co's scramble all but the rebroadcast of OTA channels so a cable card is required to be able to view the scrambled channels even if you have your own cable box or QAM tuner.

Even if the OP is lucky and the two channels they want are broadcast in the clear cable companies regulary change broadcast frequencies and without the cable card you won't get the virtual to physical channel mapping. So every time the cable co remaps frqeuencies you'll need to find the new frequency. I experimented with WMC for a while but gave up because the channel mappings kept changing.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

You can buy and use a digital cablebox from Amazon, but you will need a cablecard. Here is one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1290392482&pf_rd_i=172282


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jrm01 said:


> You can buy and use a digital cablebox from Amazon, but you will need a cablecard. Here is one:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1290392482&pf_rd_i=172282


LOL +1 and don't forget the $19.99/month TiVo sub charge.


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

I am not trying to circumvent paying for any cable channels. The two channels that have moved to the digital tier are: TCM (Turner Classic Movies) and AMC (American Movie Classics). I already pay monthly to receive these channels which are still listed as part of the "Extended Basic" Tier, albeit those two channels are digital channels. I was under the impression that cable cards were for High Definition signals and perhaps pay-per-view or Video On Demand channels/programs only.


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## wtkflhn (May 12, 2006)

SpiritualPoet said:


> I am not trying to circumvent paying for any cable channels. The two channels that have moved to the digital tier are: TCM (Turner Classic Movies) and AMC (American Movie Classics). I already pay monthly to receive these channels which are still listed as part of the "Extended Basic" Tier, albeit those two channels are digital channels. I was under the impression that cable cards were for High Definition signals and perhaps pay-per-view or Video On Demand channels/programs only.


 Be careful what you wish for. I live in New Orleans, La area. When HD came out in 2003, Cox cable (in this market only, as far as I Know), decided not to rent cable boxes. You had to BUY your own box, a Motorola. You didn't buy it directly from Cox, but from dealers they set up. Not many people did this and so almost no one had HD from Cox. So, I plunked down my $600 and got my box. I had to pay a digital connection fee which was about $9 a month. This worked fine for several years. But then, 1 day, we had a power serge and the graphics card went out. That means no program guide and no timers or any graphics. I can't find anyone from Motorola on down, to fix it. So, I still have a box, but half of it doesn't work.

I ended up renting a box from Cox. I had this box about 6 years, so I guess with the money it saved from box rental fees, I came out close to even. But I think in the long run, your better off just paying the piper, and renting his box. For there's no tech support for your own cable box. And even if you got one, unless it's authorized by the cable co, it's a brick. It won't even get the analog chanels.

Don H


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Probably all the old analog junk on cable will go away eventually though some cable companies are taking it _very_ slowly.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

SpiritualPoet said:


> Of course if I buy such a box, I don't want to have to rent cablecards from the cable office because doing so defeats the savings of having the box that I would own.


It doesn't defeat the saving, because the cost of a cablecard is MUCH less than the cost of a cable box.

Plus, you MIGHT be able to buy a cablecard off of eBay and use that -- if they truly are non-premium channels.


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

SpiritualPoet said:


> I was under the impression that cable cards were for High Definition signals and perhaps pay-per-view or Video On Demand channels/programs only.


As you have discovered, the answer is no. Cablecards have two functions. They unscramble digital signals and they map those signals to adverstised channel numbers.

All HD signals are digital, but not all digital signals are HD. There are SD digital channels.

All local OTA channels should be broadcast on the cable in the clear and you could watch them without a cablecard. However, the channel mapping may not agree with the published channel numbers. Most cable companies scramble their expanded basic channels and therefore you would need a cablecard to unscramble them.


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

mattack said:


> Plus, you MIGHT be able to buy a cablecard off of eBay and use that -- if they truly are non-premium channels.


@SpiritualPoet, probably not. Any cablecard would have to match the system being used in your headend. Possibly Motorola or Scientific Atlanta. I believe their is a third manufactuer, but I don't remember what it is.

I have read one report here that says that an unauthorized card may do the channel mapping, but it would not unscramble the scrambled channels. Therefore, it would properly map the in the clear channels to the published channel numbers, but does nothing for you allowing you to watch the channels you really are trying to watch.

It is unlikely you would get the cable company to authorize eBay cablecards and they certainly would charge you a fee.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mattack said:


> It doesn't defeat the saving, because the cost of a cablecard is MUCH less than the cost of a cable box.
> 
> Plus, you MIGHT be able to buy a cablecard off of eBay and use that -- if they truly are non-premium channels.


I had, by error, a Cable card from another cable system, it would not get any channels, even the clear QAM, and all cable cards have a time out feature so you can't set up the card and then block the cable card communication only, cancel most of your service and keep getting the channels you had been getting, the time out is somewhere around 20 days or so of no Head end cable communications.


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

Ok, thanks for all the answers. My final thought on the subject is I simply wish that the industry would simply charge a $100 deposit for a cablebox and not charge for the usage of it, in terms of rent of the box or of the cablecard. After all, the purpose of the cablecard is to protect the signal from being stolen or hacked: to benefit the cable firm. Consumers pay to protect their homes. Why must consumers pay to protect the interests of the cable firms? It's way past time for lawyers to force the industry to pay for its own protection and not force it on law abiding customers.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

SpiritualPoet said:


> Ok, thanks for all the answers. My final thought on the subject is I simply wish that the industry would simply charge a $100 deposit for a cablebox and not charge for the usage of it, in terms of rent of the box or of the cablecard. After all, the purpose of the cablecard is to protect the signal from being stolen or hacked: to benefit the cable firm. Consumers pay to protect their homes. Why must consumers pay to protect the interests of the cable firms? It's way past time for lawyers to force the industry to pay for its own protection and not force it on law abiding customers.


I can sum it up with one line...
Step 4: PROFIT!


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I agree that by now we should be able to buy our own cards and get them activated. I've read elsewhere that the cableCos are only paying $25 or so for them now, so the new CC rental fees will be a massive ripoff for us.

But what do you expect? They hate cards and will do everything they can to make them painful to use.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Unless something has changed an unsubscribed tivo will still accept a cable card and tune any channel you subscribe to. 

OP--If the channels are "in the clear" any tivo with a digital (QAM) tuner will be able to tune those stations. Won't help you if those channels are in a SDV grouping or if they're encrypted.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

SpiritualPoet said:


> Why must consumers pay to protect the interests of the cable firms? It's way past time for lawyers to force the industry to pay for its own protection and not force it on law abiding customers.


Well it's the same reason you pay for the guard at the bank, the alarm system at the store, the anti-piracy staff at the Software companies, etc. The consumer pays _all_ the costs of doing business and more so the company can make a profit. For better or worse, that's how our system works.

In some cases they bundle the expenses, (for example, the store doesn't charge you an alarm fee but it's in their ~100% markup) and in some cases they break it out.

Of course cable companies are generally semi-monopolies (depending on whether you want to count satellite and/or internet as competition) so they generally can get away with more. If the cable company really bugs you, in many cases the satellite companies are more competitive.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

lew said:


> Unless something has changed an unsubscribed tivo will still accept a cable card and tune any channel you subscribe to.


It must be an activated cable card by your cable co, and no recording, *but* in answer to the OP I guess for $80 something plus (for a TP) and the rental cost of the cable card you have an almost cable box. You will be missing the channel information (what is playing) and on-demand, the channel mapping will be correct at the start. What i don't know is if TiVo will add new channel call names if you don't have a sub.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dgh said:


> In some cases they bundle the expenses, (for example, the store doesn't charge you an alarm fee but it's in their ~100% markup) and in some cases they break it out.


the cable companies would be ecstatic to send you a single line item bill...


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## That Don Guy (Mar 13, 2003)

SpiritualPoet said:


> I am not trying to circumvent paying for any cable channels. The two channels that have moved to the digital tier are: TCM (Turner Classic Movies) and AMC (American Movie Classics). I already pay monthly to receive these channels which are still listed as part of the "Extended Basic" Tier, albeit those two channels are digital channels. I was under the impression that cable cards were for High Definition signals and perhaps pay-per-view or Video On Demand channels/programs only.


This is the first time I have heard that an "extended basic" channel required a digital box...but I just checked the Comcast listings in my area and even "limited basic" has two "digital box" channels here.

Having a "basic" level where some of the channels require a digital box where others don't kinda sorta defeats the purpose of having "basic" levels in the first place, doesn't it?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

The communications act of '96 (or anything since) never made it legal to own provider boxes, nor obligates providers to sell or activate such boxes. What it did, basically, is require that providers separate security functions from the rest of the cable box, and allow 3rd party devices a customer may purchase on their own, perform non-security features, and use a provider security security device to access secured content.

Bottom line, in the USA, which not technically illegal to own such hardware (apart from possibly "stolen" devices), there is no way one could really legally own or activate it, since they are not sold on the retail market.

In Canada, some providers do sell cable boxes themselves, or through partner retailers. I don't think there are systems in place to service or replace broken customer owned boxes.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

SpiritualPoet said:


> .... I look for the day when consumers can own their own cablecards. The cable operators make enough money as it is without the added $4 monthly fee for the card(s).





slowbiscuit said:


> I agree that by now we should be able to buy our own cards and get them activated. I've read elsewhere that the cableCos are only paying $25 or so for them now, so the new CC rental fees will be a massive ripoff for us.
> ....


the cable company is permitted to rent the cards or sell them to the consumer. Some cable companies do sell them. Off the top of my head I believe "service electric" cable in Pa/NJ sells them. Last i saw a post (probably years back)- they FORCED people to buy them and it was a sizable nut like $100+

At one point the FCC threatened cable not to use cablecard rental as a profit center. I seem to recall that the FCC has said something to the effect of "if you start to charge unfair prices for cablecard rentals we will regulate those fees. Fair is what you guys want it to be but something like $2 seems about right to us" and hence why cable cards cust a buck or 2 for most.

Would I want to buy mine? NO. Some providers charge ZERO for the card rental. Or only a dollar. Assuming a dollar rental- If the card costs them $35 they would want to sell if for probably $50. So it would take 4 years to pay back. I dont want to be locked to my current provider for 4 years with the same hardware. (the cablecard has to be compatible with the system at your headend so if you move to a different brand headend it may not work). Also what happens if you purchased an S-card and now you want an M-card? Time to go buy a new one- wheras if you rent you can eventually (might be hoops) get them to 'upgrade' you.

People already complain Tivo is too much. That cablecard is too annoying, costs too much to install,etc. What would happen if joe six pack called his cable provider and said "i want to install my new tivo" and they said "OK that will be $100 for you to buy 2 m-cards". cablecard would be even more dead than it is today.


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## dtremit (Mar 17, 2002)

caddyroger said:


> Motorola and sa boxes are not sold to the public.


That is not entirely true. I own a Motorola cable box which happens to be integrated with a home theatre receiver and DVD player -- an odd beast called the DCP501. It was a spectacular flop -- I got mine from Woot a few years back for next to nothing -- but it is in fact a Motorola digital cable box that was marketed to the general public.

The thing that infuriates me about cable cards is that my cable subscription includes a credit covering the cost of a cable box rental -- but they will not apply that credit to the (less expensive) cable card. I have kept the free box just to spite them.


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

dtremit said:


> That is not entirely true. I own a Motorola cable box which happens to be integrated with a home theatre receiver and DVD player -- an odd beast called the DCP501. It was a spectacular flop -- I got mine from Woot a few years back for next to nothing -- but it is in fact a Motorola digital cable box that was marketed to the general public.
> 
> The thing that infuriates me about cable cards is that my cable subscription includes a credit covering the cost of a cable box rental -- but they will not apply that credit to the (less expensive) cable card. I have kept the free box just to spite them.


Forgot about that one but try buying one now. It would be hard to get set up as the Comcast support probably does not know how to.
I hope you not paying an outlet fee.


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## wtkflhn (May 12, 2006)

caddyroger said:


> Forgot about that one but try buying one now. It would be hard to get set up as the Comcast support probably does not know how to.
> I hope you not paying an outlet fee.


I'll bet he is paying an "outlet fee". Cox called it a "digital gateway" fee. If you don't have that, the box is a brick.

Don H


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> Would I want to buy mine? NO. Some providers charge ZERO for the card rental. Or only a dollar.


Yeah, and some charge $4-6 a month, like FIOS. Or charge a full outlet fee, like Comcast. A purchased card, even at $50, would quickly pay for itself on those systems.


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## dtremit (Mar 17, 2002)

wtkflhn said:


> I'll bet he is paying an "outlet fee". Cox called it a "digital gateway" fee. If you don't have that, the box is a brick.


In this case, it's not a brick, it's a receiver and DVD player. I have actually never used the cable portion of it -- I bought it as a cheap-but-decent receiver for a spare room that happened to have a dead DVD player. Obsolete now (no HDMI), but it was money well spent at the time.

That said, it's proof that it's possible to have a legal non-CableCard digital cable box.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

SpiritualPoet said:


> I would like to know where to purchase a digital cable box. Does anyone know where I can obtain one? It's worth trying because I'm only trying to get two channels in that aren't part of my "Extended Basic" lineup.


It almost certainly would not work with your CATV system, if you did. Even if you happened to be fortunate enough to get one that did work, it would not work if you moved, and chances are it wouild not work after the next system upgrade your CATV provider decides to roll out.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

SpiritualPoet said:


> Of course if I buy such a box, I don't want to have to rent cablecards from the cable office because doing so defeats the savings of having the box that I would own.


All digital CATV receivers require CableCards.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

That Don Guy said:


> Pardon me for asking, but even if somebody owns a cable box, doesn't it have to be synchronized somehow to the cable system's servers? There has to be some way at "their end" for the company to know which channels you can receive and which ones you can't.


There are two separate issues, here. One is the authorization of which you speak. This is handled by the CableCards. The other is the handshaking done by the host, or in the case of a UDCP with a Tuning Adapter, by the Tuning Adapter. It is the latter that is proprietary.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

a68oliver said:


> @SpiritualPoet, probably not. Any cablecard would have to match the system being used in your headend. Possibly Motorola or Scientific Atlanta. I believe their is a third manufactuer, but I don't remember what it is.


Actually, there are a number, including Pace and several others, but they all operate under license to either Motorola or Cisco (formerly Scientific Atlanta).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

That Don Guy said:


> This is the first time I have heard that an "extended basic" channel required a digital box...but I just checked the Comcast listings in my area and even "limited basic" has two "digital box" channels here.
> 
> Having a "basic" level where some of the channels require a digital box where others don't kinda sorta defeats the purpose of having "basic" levels in the first place, doesn't it?


In my area, extended basic has been required for what, about two years now, I think. They seemed to try to tie it in with the OTA digital switchover to confuse people (IMHO).

I still get/record up to I think channel 33 in analog. The only non-broadcast channel that I actually use (in analog) is Discovery. I wish it were still all in analog, as analog artifacts bug me a lot less than digital artifacts. (I wish we could choose to record digital or analog channels on Tivos with cable cards -- for a few shows I would choose digital, but I would probably choose analog for most.. for space reasons.. though that can be bad like when my 1 TB drive died.)


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Both the TiVo and the Moxi HD *are * the kind of "cable box" to own that are available. So, yes, there is--are--cable boxes on the market that you can buy and not have to pay a monthly fee--Moxi HD only. But you would still need to pay a monthly fee for the Cable Card, although it should be closer to only $5 per month.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> All digital CATV receivers require CableCards.


Not necessarily true. Consider Comcast's Digital Transport Adapter (DTA). It is a basic, unidirectional, digital cable tuner, one that does not require a CableCard.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

mattack said:


> They seemed to try to tie it in with the OTA digital switchover to confuse people (IMHO).


I believe it was congress that ended up causing confusion. Initially Cable Co's were asked to delay their migration to digital until June to avoid conflict with the OTA migration happening in early Feb. Then the OTA migration got pushed back by Congress.


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## OCSMITH (Mar 16, 2006)

SpiritualPoet said:


> A few years ago the U.S. government made a law that people can own their own cable boxes (when all service was analog). Does this apply to non-HD digital cable boxes in use today? My cable operator says "no". Is that correct? Some of the channels I watch have moved from "Extended Basic" to "Digital" Tiers even though they are not in HD. I don't want to pay rent every month for a cable box. Must the cable operator allow me to buy my own box? If so, where can I get one?


Yes, I paid $199.00 from CircuitCity about 1997? It is a Motorola Digital Cable Box DCT2224 ? Have to dig it out, have not used it in years but it can do ODM and PPV. I hate renting. I don't where you can buy them now but you once could buy them. Had speak to someone who knew what they were doing to add the box to there system. (Media One then AT&T now Comcast)


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

OCSMITH said:


> Yes, I paid $199.00 from CircuitCity about 1997? It is a Motorola Digital Cable Box DCT2224 ? Have to dig it out, have not used it in years but it can do ODM and PPV. I hate renting. I don't where you can buy them now but you once could buy them. Had speak to someone who knew what they were doing to add the box to there system. (Media One then AT&T now Comcast)


You can buy motorola or sa here in the USA. They are not sold to the public.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

caddyroger said:


> You can buy motorola or sa here in the USA. They are not sold to the public.


Let me see if I can understand what you are saying:

1. I can buy them here in the USA.
2. They are not sold to the public.
3. I am the public.

Therefore, ........huh?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Pretty obvious typo of cannot. I hope by now that everyone knows you cannot buy a box here and get it activated. The ebay boxes are all stolen or otherwise abandoned property of the cableCos.

I would like to be able to buy *cheap *HD cable STBs and get *cheap *cablecards put in them, but neither of these exist.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Consider that most new TVs have a digital Cable tuner built in and most (all?) do not have the ability to use cable cards. 

The reason is simple adding the ability to use cable cards to anything COSTS TOO MUCH MONEY. It also causes one to have to deal with cable labs "rules" which are somewhat draconian. 

When people want to know why a TiVo costs so much I can assure you a big part of the reason is the ability to use cable cards and thats before the user gets to deal with their cable company to actual get cable cards. 

Thanks,


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> Pretty obvious typo of cannot. I hope by now that everyone knows you cannot buy a box here and get it activated. The ebay boxes are all stolen or otherwise abandoned property of the cableCos.
> 
> I would like to be able to buy *cheap *HD cable STBs and get *cheap *cablecards put in them, but neither of these exist.


Your statements may be true *in general*, however others have posted about their cable company allowing/making them buy cable cards.


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

jrm01 said:


> Let me see if I can understand what you are saying:
> 
> 1. I can buy them here in the USA.
> 2. They are not sold to the public.
> ...


Opps sorry you can not buy them here in the US.


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## linear7 (Apr 22, 2011)

Things are set up this way so that the user is forced to pay a monthly useage fee. The cable companies depend on this recurring revenue and forecast earnings based on them. Every penny squeezed from the consumer means more profits.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

linear7 said:


> Things are set up this way so that the user is forced to pay a monthly useage fee. The cable companies depend on this recurring revenue and forecast earnings based on them. Every penny squeezed from the consumer means more profits.


With the hate on this form for cable co I not going to defend them but when renting a digital cable box you do get free at home service if you should have any problems with the box and SDV OD and PPV are included for your cable system, no fuss.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lessd said:


> With the hate on this form for cable co I not going to defend them but when renting a digital cable box you do get free at home service if you should have any problems with the box and SDV OD and PPV are included for your cable system, no fuss.


oh Goody, I am going to call and get my cable box right now


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

lessd said:


> With the hate on this form for cable co I not going to defend them but when renting a digital cable box you do get free at home service if you should have any problems with the box and SDV OD and PPV are included for your cable system, no fuss.


I think people hate anything that nickels & dimes you to death with hard to figure out charges. Telephone bills, utility bills, hospital bills, car repair bills, all fall into the category like cable/satellite. No such thing as the price is $xx.xx it is always more because they have a an add on fee for something that isn't in the price.

While I don't like paying $4.00 for a gallon of gas at least when I go to buy it they don't try to charge me a pump fee, light fee, roof fee, etc. on top of the price.

Thanks,


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> I think people hate anything that nickels & dimes you to death with hard to figure out charges. Telephone bills, utility bills, hospital bills, car repair bills, all fall into the category like cable/satellite. No such thing as the price is $xx.xx it is always more because they have a an add on fee for something that isn't in the price.
> 
> While I don't like paying $4.00 for a gallon of gas at least when I go to buy it they don't try to charge me a pump fee, light fee, roof fee, etc. on top of the price.
> 
> Thanks,


What you said is true, but as with everything what better alternative does one have, some people use satellite, OTA, Internet, or not watch TV at all, my point was that for many cable customers the cable co DVR is what they consider the best DVR solution for their family. For me I think the TiVo is the best solution because i don't care about OD or PPV and my cable system does not have SDV.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

lessd said:


> What you said is true, but as with everything what better alternative does one have, some people use satellite, OTA, Internet, or not watch TV at all, my point was that for many cable customers the cable co DVR is what they consider the best DVR solution for their family. For me I think the TiVo is the best solution because i don't care about OD or PPV and my cable system does not have SDV.


I agree. If my cable system used SDV or otherwise made life difficult for Tivos, I'm not sure I would still be on them.

The OD/PPV issue - I'd be interested to see how many households actually use this. I'm sure there's a core group that orders lots of porn or boxing matches, but the average family? Really?

I know it's anecdotal, but I simply do not know anyone who has ever purchased PPV in my family or friends - and yes, I've asked. I imagine more technically savvy people show very low PPV rates - they're more educated and aware of their options, and less likely to be interested in boxing and wrestling's premium live events.

OnDemand may be different, depending on the cableco's implementation and pricing - and I don't know all of those, so I specifically don't want to comment to that except to say that even (long) ago when I had a cable box, OD usage was limited to free stuff -- because at the time we didn't have a DVR of any kind!


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

The masses always opt for the low monthly fee box provided for "free" by MVPD's vs. upfront cash cost for a box that is usually more than they either want to spend or can afford to spend for a "cable box" from a 3rd party. This means that there is simply no economy of scale that will work to a box manufacturers advantage to make a minimum number of them and have to sell enough of them to John Q. Public to make any or even just enough money. Simply put: there isn't enough money to made doing this.

The exceptions are the DVR's by TiVo or Moxi, but they offer a lot of advanced DVR features and other features that some affluent people can afford to buy for desired features.

It costs hundreds of $$ for Cable, FiOS, Uverse, and Sat to acquire a customer and the biggest cost aside from labor, is the Set-top-box. No 3rd party wants to go down that road unless they are offering a high-end product for the affluent and wealthy who aren't going to change providers for quite some time: TiVo and Moxi DRV's.


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## OCSMITH (Mar 16, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Pretty obvious typo of cannot. I hope by now that everyone knows you cannot buy a box here and get it activated. The ebay boxes are all stolen or otherwise abandoned property of the cableCos.
> 
> I would like to be able to buy *cheap *HD cable STBs and get *cheap *cablecards put in them, but neither of these exist.


Slowbiscuit, I don't know of a store that sells digital cable boxes "now" but CC use to sell them, I have one, they still use the same box on our system now. Comcast adds the box like you would add a cable modem. The cable box belongs to me and I could sell it.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

No one sells HD cable boxes now, but that could change if Tivo releases their 'extender' box which is supposed to have a cablecard tuner in it.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

petew said:


> The fee the cable company charges for the Digital Tier comprises of two components. Rental of the cable box and a charge for the programming in the tier. If you have your own cable box you only save on the cable box rental fee, you still need to pay the programming fee. My local cable co gives the first cable box for free so there's no saving if you don't have it.
> 
> Exactly. Most cable co's scramble all but the rebroadcast of OTA channels so a cable card is required to be able to view the scrambled channels even if you have your own cable box or QAM tuner.
> 
> Even if the OP is lucky and the two channels they want are broadcast in the clear cable companies regulary change broadcast frequencies and without the cable card you won't get the virtual to physical channel mapping. So every time the cable co remaps frqeuencies you'll need to find the new frequency. I experimented with WMC for a while but gave up because the channel mappings kept changing.


Nope. I gave one of my old lifetime TivoHD's to my 82 year old father who watchs basic SD cable on a 36" trinitron and he gets all the channels, guide info and etc without a cable card from Cox Communications.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

vurbano said:


> Nope. I gave one of my old lifetime TivoHD's to my 82 year old father who watchs basic SD cable on a 36" trinitron and he gets all the channels, guide info and etc without a cable card from Cox Communications.


This only works if your system is still using Analog cable. Some still use analog cable and some don't, however more and more are going to all digital or nearly all digital all the time.

The post you quoted was talking about digital cable, which in all cases requires a cable card to work correctly with a HD TiVo.

Thanks,


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