# Who Wants A Hybrid?



## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Not a hybrid vehicle, but a hybrid video mode.

For those of you excited by such things, how would you feel if the hybrid output modes weren't available down the road?

Assume native mode support is there, as well as fixed, but none of the hybrid modes.

How would your world change? How would you adapt? Would you notice?

Thanks!
Pony


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## elwaylite (Apr 23, 2006)

All I care about is native mode.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I only use native.


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## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

I think it's important to keep the fixed modes as well as native mode - but I don't care about the hybrid output modes (I did try them).


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## jtrain (Jan 17, 2006)

I only use fixed 1080i on both my S3 and TiVo HD, and have used native/hybrid, but am happy with fixed 1080i. don't think i'll miss hybrid.


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## Poochie (Dec 27, 2003)

I personally wouldn't miss hybrid mode - never uesd it. I have used a fixed mode as an experiment - and understand why some would prefer it, especially with laggy HDMI resync times and/or devices that don't understand 720p - but primarily have used native mode on my S3. I've never quite "gotten" what the value of hybrid mode would be over fixed or native...


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Native native native.


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## cjw2001 (Feb 11, 2003)

Fixed or native here -- never had a need for hybrid.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Hybrid was only needed for older displays that couldn't support 480i over HDMI. We haven't see TVs with that limitation in a few years, so that 'workaround' is no longer necessary.

That said, I hope you will change your native mode so it operates like native mode on other boxes. Hitting menu from a 1080i program shouldn't take you to a 720p menu. Instead, you should always display the HD menus in the current HD resolution. You should never change HD resolutions just to display a menu.


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## BJezz (Jan 12, 2009)

I only use native.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

I use fixed, don't care about Hybrid.

Hey, but I like that this is being asked...


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> Hybrid was only needed for older displays that couldn't support 480i over HDMI. We haven't see TVs with that limitation in a few years, so that 'workaround' is no longer necessary.


Well, the older sets may still be in use.

But I use fixed.


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## visionary (May 31, 2006)

I use 1080 all the time and it is fine. I use component cords right to flatscreen HDTV. 

Glad to see you Tivo folks all are alive. I had a bad disk recently, you all need to put out a checklist for that kind of thing. Mine would show up as stutters and freeze/reboots ONLY on recordings or delayed playings, not on live TV, till the very end making me think software trouble. But at very end of several months as it got worst live TV finally failed and some recordings got a grey screen total fail and then I did believe it was the disk. It was. Replaced it and it is fine but.......you could make people not suspect software and reduce complaint calls by putting out a list of disk fail symptoms, and maybe telling us why live TV does not fail till it is really on last legs. Old programs were fine too, but I am back on 11C with the old original disk and all is fine, had to be the disk. Is there a reason Tivo does not just sell replacement internal disks themselves and bigger ones as they come out? Or license someone officially, just like you do the adapter device? 

When you do come out with a new model, put at least 1 TB in it internally guys, so many people would have so many less complaints. For what the S3 cost me, it ought to have had at least 500G internal even back then, today at least 1TB. Maybe consider selling a machine with a coupon for a later larger disk, like 2 years later. Would be a win-win for all. 

I am sorry you guys get so much flack over the tuning adapters, you did not do that, the cable companies did, likewise for cable card issues. I use mine for just over air HD and am very happy if the device had just come with more storage space. 

For next time, a big internal drive is so much less likely to have issues I would have gone with one that a person could change easily with a small panel on the bottom of the unit, and keep the Tivo program and ads in chips memory and the disk have just the customer recordings on it only. I'd also have the 30 min buffer on chips and only write to disk on recordings, increasing disk life.

Reducing some unneeded options like hybrid is fine with me.


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

My year and a half old TV does not support 480i over HDMI. I use Hybrid mode.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Fixed here, played with native, but prefer fixed.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

my original HDTV disn't place nice with 480i- so i know why you implemented it- but i never used hybrid- i just did fixed with the native resolution of the display. Figured if the dsiplay was so cheesy it couldn't do 480i that the scaler in the tivo was better anyway. Plus the same set took forever to sync up on resolution changes so it was painfull.

2 newer sets i use native.

so dont see a need for hybrid myself.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

TiVoPony said:


> Not a hybrid vehicle, but a hybrid video mode.
> 
> For those of you excited by such things, how would you feel if the hybrid output modes weren't available down the road?
> 
> ...


All I care about is FIXED mode (I use 1080i FIXED) as my HDTV can't easily handle switching between modes all the time. When my TiVo is in Fixed mode, and I change channels... the TV instantly displays the show. In Native mode, it takes the TV 5 to 10 seconds to fix itself to the new format.

So I don't care about hybrid. I do care about Fixed! 

Thanks for asking though!

TGC


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

Played with hybrid and didn't like it. I use fixed.


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

Using fixed here, don't care for hybrid


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I have set my Series 3 to use 1080i fixed output, so I would not care. I did use native for a while too, but there was some issue with that on my TV (don't remember what exactly). I don't know if I've tried hybrid or not, but I wouldn't notice if it was gone.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

a68oliver said:


> My year and a half old TV does not support 480i over HDMI. I use Hybrid mode.


Which to me might be an important point. Will your system work well enough in fixed mode, though? It's what I use on both my HD sets.


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## cdeckert219 (Jan 7, 2006)

What's hybrid? 

Seriously, mine are set to native. Works for me!


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## jaredmwright (Sep 6, 2004)

1080i fixed as well on both my Series3 and HD using component, HDMI is too problematic splitting throughout the house to multiple displays.


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## cgould (Dec 28, 2002)

My RP CRTV works well with 480p and 1080i; fails on 720p. (component, no HDMI)
So, I live for hybrid! please don't take it away.

One reason to not do 1080i fixed? (upconverting 480)?
The Tivo & my TV do a great job video-quality-wise w/ 480i-> 480p, much better than 1080i upscaled;
but most important, I retain the aspect-ration control on 480p : not available on 1080i. Very annoying how many SD channels, even digital, broadcast letterboxed programs  Luckily, Tivo's "zoom" mode is extremely good picture quality, although it tends to cut off the top/bottom a bit.

If you give aspect control over 1080i also, and better quality on upscaling, then fixed is ok.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

This thread should be turned into a poll.


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## martyscholes (Apr 29, 2009)

I use native because I assumed, but never tested, that the display could upconvert better than the Tivo. I must say it is a pain having two sets of aspect controls.

I am guessing that keeping progressive output native instead of forcing it to 1080i also gives a better picture.

I always wondered why there is a hybrid option.


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## aforkosh (Apr 20, 2003)

I use Native for the following reason:

My display is 1080p and there are no 1080p broadcasts. Therefore, no matter what, the display will need to a conversion at the end of the process. Since some pixel interpolation is involved in any conversion there is some loss of accuracy for every conversion done. therefore, I prefer to convert only once and my only choice is to do that conversion at the display level.

Note: every time I change between signals of different resolutions (480i, 720p, 1080i, there is a noticeable delay. I too would prefer that the TiVO menu be displayed using the resolution of the channel last displayed to allow it to be displayed quicker.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

My thoughts:

- Native should be changed so that it is truly native for 480i/p. It should never insert side bars into the image as it does now in native/panel/16:9 mode, because that causes loss of resolution. See this thread for further discussion:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=414782

- The Hybrid modes should be retired and replaced with a "Custom" mode. In Custom mode, the user would be allowed to specify the output resolution for each input resolution. This would allow people to do whatever they want, and would provide compatibility for any TV. For example, I might choose to output 720p as native 720p, and all other resolutions as 1080i.


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## AgentMunroe (Oct 14, 2002)

I use 1080i Fixed (the mode switches on our Sony flat panel are long and distracting) - not even sure what Hybrid is off the top of my head.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

cgould said:


> My RP CRTV works well with 480p and 1080i; fails on 720p. (component, no HDMI)


Yes I also encountered this problem with my RPTV. Hybrid mode is quite useful to work around this limitation.



aforkosh said:


> Note: every time I change between signals of different resolutions (480i, 720p, 1080i, there is a noticeable delay. I too would prefer that the TiVO menu be displayed using the resolution of the channel last displayed to allow it to be displayed quicker.


The delays are very annoying and TiVo should follow your suggestion to fix the problem.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

I have an older Toshiba rear projection TV, and one component input can handle 480p and 720p, while the other can handle 480p and 1080i. I use hybrid on that TV, but could probably live with fixed.


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## clark_kent (May 6, 2007)

Native only for me.

How about asking what the TCF thinks about 2 tuners vs 4 tuners. :up: 

I'm not suggesting that TiVo offer only one box with 4 tuners, take it or leave it.

The market for a 2 tuner box is much bigger then the market for a 4 tuner box. But, you could have one TiVo box that's 2 tuners only ($249), but with some fancy new features and that fancy new HD GUI. And, you could also have a premium TiVo box (Series 4 ) that comes with 2 tuners ($499) but is also available with 4 tuners ($799). Even better, offer to "future proof" that premium Series 4 by allowing a customer to start with 2 tuners and have it be upgradable to 4 tuners down the road. :up::up::up:


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## jeffw_00 (Sep 19, 2000)

i use 1080i fixed because I don't like the jump/delay on my Samsung LCD TV whenever the resolution changes. Tivo handles the upscaling much more smoothly


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

clark_kent said:


> And, you could also have a premium TiVo box (Series 4 ) that comes with 2 tuners ($499) but is also available with 4 tuners ($799). Even better, offer to "future proof" that premium Series 4 by allowing a customer to start with 2 tuners and have it be upgradable to 4 tuners down the road. :up::up::up:


I would rather have TiVo create some type of co-operative scheduling app. They wouldn't even have to build it into the units. Heck, if they allowed you to schedule via the API anyone cold write it. Then, if you want 4 tunners, just get a second box. The co-op schedule app will balance the use of HD space and tuners on the two devices. You can use MRV to watch any recording on either TiVo.

Problem solved.

BOb


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## ilikeyoureyes (Jun 3, 2007)

Why take away options? I use hybrid just to upconvert my 480i stuff to 480p , such as dvds I watch using pytivo.


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## ilikeyoureyes (Jun 3, 2007)

Also forgot to mention I use it on my other tv that doesn't support 720p but does 1080i and 480p. Guess the alternative is fixed 1080i. Wouldn't be pleased but wouldn't be life shattering.


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## kibo (Nov 19, 2000)

I use 1080i fixed to eliminate mode switches on my TV. I've tried the hybrids and native, but always come back to fixed.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

I used to use hybrid (older Toshiba RPTV as mentioned by others) but I switched to fixed a while back, when I realized that the buik of my viewing was HD and I no longer cared that the display had more flexible scaling/stretching modes than the TiVo.

Eventually, native may become important to me, but hybrid going away won't faze me.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Wouldn't the one guy that has a tivo that can't do 480i over hdmi be able to either:

A) Used Fixed mode
B) Output via component for 480i content?


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

Fixed is a must - don't care about hybrid.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

fixed mode here, not sure why I stopped using native. I think I had some switching issues and going fixed stopped them.. been a couple years.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

IIRC I'm using fixed. 

BOb


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## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

Spotted this thread and thought I'd check what it was that I was using ... I knew that I tried a whole bunch of different things before settling on what seemed "right" to me.

Seems I've been using 1080i Hybrid for quite some time. (And I've been happy with it). Since TiVoPony was essentially asking what we'd do if it were not there .. I decided to check what I would do ..

1080i Fixed stretched out the 480p (non-HD) channels to fill the screen (16x9). I don't like watching things that are distorted. 

So I took a look at "native". Seems about right. Things were showing up with the right dimensions. But if I was flipping between the HD channels, it seemed to take too long in what seemed to be adjusting to the proper resolution. 

So to answer TiVoPony.. I'd probably use Native if Hybrid wasn't there, but it doesn't seem to be as smooth during channel changes (HDMI connection btw)


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## toddvj (Apr 22, 2004)

Wouldn't matter to me. I output 1080i always.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

I use native. No need for hybrid for me.


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## k2ue (May 9, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> All I care about is FIXED mode (I use 1080i FIXED) as my HDTV can't easily handle switching between modes all the time. When my TiVo is in Fixed mode, and I change channels... the TV instantly displays the show. In Native mode, it takes the TV 5 to 10 seconds to fix itself to the new format.
> 
> So I don't care about hybrid. I do care about Fixed!
> 
> ...


I second all of the above. Native (or Hybrid) makes channel surfing painfully slow. When you add the SDV lag (before there is a signal to sync to) only fixed at the display's native resolution is workable.


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## BJezz (Jan 12, 2009)

Since a few people have requested not switching resolution when showing the menu, if this is implemented I'd like it to be optional. Resolution switches aren't causing any problems here, so I prefer the switch to HD if the unit is currently in SD.


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

I use 720p fixed (my TV is 720p). Like others I found the mode switches annoying in native or hybrid modes.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Hybrid was only needed for older displays that couldn't support 480i over HDMI. We haven't see TVs with that limitation in a few years, so that 'workaround' is no longer necessary.
> 
> That said, I hope you will change your native mode so it operates like native mode on other boxes. Hitting menu from a 1080i program shouldn't take you to a 720p menu. Instead, you should always display the HD menus in the current HD resolution. You should never change HD resolutions just to display a menu.


A good point to make! :up:

If getting rid of hybrid utilizes resources more effectively or facilitates other features, by all means eliminate it. I have only one hi-def display which can't handle 480i HDMI and it no longer has a hi-def Tivo connected to it.


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## acvthree (Jan 17, 2004)

Currently, I use native, but if I did not have an external scaler, I would need to use hybrid since my Samsung to not support 480i over HDMI. If I used fixed I would be using the worst (although the TIVO scaler is not that bad) of the three scalers in my setup.

Al


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## mchief (Sep 10, 2005)

1080i Fixed only. Too much delay in Native or Hybrid.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

alansh said:


> I use 720p fixed (my TV is 720p). Like others I found the mode switches annoying in native or hybrid modes.


same for me


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

BJezz said:


> Since a few people have requested not switching resolution when showing the menu, if this is implemented I'd like it to be optional. Resolution switches aren't causing any problems here, so I prefer the switch to HD if the unit is currently in SD.


I think we can all agree that TiVo should not switch from 1080i to 720p (or vice versa) to display menus. On a future TiVo with a high-definition UI, I would certainly expect it to switch from 480i to 720p/1080i to display the menus.

Native modes on some cable company boxes do not switch resolutions *at all* to display the menus, but they don't have HD interfaces.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

I just double checked. I was wrong. I am using 720p Hybrid. How it this different than 720p fixed. It just means that my TV is passthru when the channel isn't HD?

Also, does the setting here affect the Aspect ratio setting? Does Full vs Panel work differently when using 720p fixed vs hybrid?

BOb


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Fixed and Native works for me. Would never have a need for Hybrid.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> Hybrid was only needed for older displays that couldn't support 480i over HDMI. We haven't see TVs with that limitation in a few years, so that 'workaround' is no longer necessary.


My TV is nearly 5 years old and is in no need of replacement. Current TV capabilities shouldn't solely determine what support is needed.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

But WHY would we want to give up hybrid? I am always concerned about giving up things for no apparent reason. I didn't like losing a set of analog audio outputs on the TivoHD. I don't think I like losing hybrid output. So I have to ask, WHY? What does Tivo get by removing a feature? What is the possible BENEFIT to the END USER? If it gives you some extra coding space for more ads or a Blockbuster Downloads folder, then NO!!!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bmgoodman said:


> But WHY would we want to give up hybrid? I am always concerned about giving up things for no apparent reason. I didn't like losing a set of analog audio outputs on the TivoHD. I don't think I like losing hybrid output. So I have to ask, WHY? What does Tivo get by removing a feature? What is the possible BENEFIT to the END USER? If it gives you some extra coding space for more ads or a Blockbuster Downloads folder, then NO!!!


I doubt it has anything to do with unrelated things like ads. I am not a coder but somehow doubt they say "gee we need to remove lines from a section of code that works perfectly fine and has for the entire lifetime of th eproduct just so we have more room to jam in some unrelated bit of programming.

my GUESS (well lets say HOPE- laughing) would be that they need to rework the output bit of things so they can enable 1080p24fps for native playback of the new amazon HD content.

since they have to perhaps redo that from scratch- they probably want to know if they need to spend a bit of time to redo hybrid.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

It's also not clear if Pony's asking in the context of the currently-shipping "Series 3" (S3/TiVoHD) models, the context of a future TiVo, or both. If they were to build hardware that didn't handle hybrid mode but that was still a common code base with the Series 3 platform, it might be easier for them to drop the feature across the board if it wasn't useful to people. 

Hardware-wise, I can understand how hybrid could be a little more challenging depending on how the data flows through the system. Fixed modes can be viewed as always going through a scaler, and native as never going through a scaler, but hybrid switches from one to the other. (Alternately, fixed is running the scaler with one output config, hybrid is running switching between 2 output configs.) Sometimes modes like that are expensive to set up, so switching from scaler to no scaler (or changing the scaler's output settings) could take more time than is reasonable and really slow down channel changes.

There are other reasons to do this, of course. MichaelK's is one; lots of support issues related to hybrid mode could be another (I don't think this is the case, but who knows?) "Giving you extra coding space" is almost certainly not one of them, though.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Native mode here

no need for hybrid


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## 188 (Oct 15, 1999)

My suggestion would be that the options be changed to allow a choice for upscaling of 480i broadcasts while still passing through 1080i and 720p. I never understood why anyone with a large display would want to go straight "native" as the 480i broadcasts look crummy on a large display unless they are upscaled.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

BL said:


> My suggestion would be that the options be changed to allow a choice for upscaling of 480i broadcasts while still passing through 1080i and 720p. I never understood why anyone with a large display would want to go straight "native" as the 480i broadcasts look crummy on a large display unless they are upscaled.


It is going to be upscaled, whether through the TV, the TiVo, or an external processor. The question is which one does a better job. Personally I would rather not have my tiVos do the scaling since it doesn't do as good a job as my other components can.

Oh and as you can see I use Native mode.


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

I use hybrid and would be sorry to see it go. My S3 has a problem placing the gray bars on some 480i channels (BBC America, Noggin, Nick Jr. -- that's several hours of operation per day right there), so that I end up with a black strip between the gray bar and the content image. It's a plasma, so that's not so good, and entirely defeats the purpose of the gray bars.

But I hate having the screen flash changing resolutions just to change channels in the ever-increasing HD range (720p-1080i-720p, etc), or to switch to Tivo Central, so I use 1080i hybrid.

So please leave it!


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Fixed only here.


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## Hawkeye22 (Aug 8, 2007)

I use fixed 1080i and native.


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

I use fixed. Native had too many delays in switching. 
I wouldn't be bothered if Hybrid went away


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## kingkong316 (Jul 13, 2008)

I have never used hybrid for a long period of time. The only thing that seems to work well with my tv (when using HDMI) is fixed. I am good with getting rid of hybrid as long as fixed stays.


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## 188 (Oct 15, 1999)

If you are already sending everything to an outboard or built in scaler, then native makes sense. I am not. I also have concerns about an unnecessary link in the chain (an outboard scaler) when most of what I am watching is 1080i or 720p and does not need scaling.

Currently I have to set it to fixed at 1080i. I would like to view 720p in its native mode, but the fixed option does not let me do that. There should be an option to have the Tivo switch to 720p on broadcasts at that resolution while not having to set it so 480i is displayed as 480i.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

Native mode for me.....


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## saeba (Oct 12, 2004)

I use hybrid as the TV can do 1080p, 1080i, 720p and 480p but not 480i. I like this as some HD is in 720p and some in 1080i and this does the minimum conversion.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Put me down as one who uses Hybrid.


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## desertsilver (Aug 24, 2005)

I know I'm in the minority, but I have one of the original Sony HDTV's that came in 4:3 aspect, so I use hybrid. Otherwise, I'm watching 4:3 videos with letterboxing on all 4 sides, due to the HD signal being in widescreen and the 4:3 aspect creating side letterboxes.

If hybrid goes away, I won't be happy...but then again, I'm in the minority.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

I use hybrid with an LCD panel because 480i looks ugly on it, I would like to have Native 720p, 1080i and have SD unconverted to a choice of 720p or 1080i.

I have a RP-CRT that only does 480i/p and 1080i but I just leave it on fixed 1080i.


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## chazas (Jan 18, 2007)

aforkosh said:


> Note: every time I change between signals of different resolutions (480i, 720p, 1080i, there is a noticeable delay. I too would prefer that the TiVO menu be displayed using the resolution of the channel last displayed to allow it to be displayed quicker.


I use native, and completely agree with the above. This is a huge annoyance.

I don't care about hybrid modes.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

desertsilver said:


> I know I'm in the minority, but I have one of the original Sony HDTV's that came in 4:3 aspect, so I use hybrid. Otherwise, I'm watching 4:3 videos with letterboxing on all 4 sides, due to the HD signal being in widescreen and the 4:3 aspect creating side letterboxes.
> 
> If hybrid goes away, I won't be happy...but then again, I'm in the minority.


If you have a 4:3 Sony TV, you should have "4:3 Smart Screen" set under Settings -> Video -> TV Aspect Ratio. You can then use native; you shouldn't need to use hybrid.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

I don't use hybrid, either.

I use Native on the main setup (Sony Bravia LCD TV, HDMI). We rarely watch the older TV from a viewing distance where it makes much of a difference, so I've got that one set to 720p Fixed to avoid all the resolution switching. There's no scaling being done in that older TV - it's an old rear-projection unit that really scans at 720p if given a 720p input.


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## hunts (Oct 5, 2006)

I have two Series 3 Tivos and both are using Hybrid. Please do not remove this option for the sake of getting rid of things.... It is annoying enough that the stock S3 tivo hard drives constantly die


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

native here


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

hunts said:


> ... Please do not remove this option for the sake of getting rid of things.... ...


didn't notice anyplace where anyone said they were just going to chop code out for fun...


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## gtalvola (Apr 2, 2008)

I use Hybrid because on my older 720p DLP, HD shows look best when passed through in their native resolution, and I can't use Native mode because my TV doesn't support 480i over HDMI.

So please don't remove Hybrid -- or if you do, replace it with a "pass through HD but upconvert 480i to 720p" mode, which would also work for me. Or just let me specify for each of the three resolutions which output mode to use. I'd use:

1080i -> 1080i
720p -> 720p
480i -> 720p


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

gtalvola said:


> I use Hybrid because on my older 720p DLP, HD shows look best when passed through in their native resolution, and I can't use Native mode because my TV doesn't support 480i over HDMI.
> 
> So please don't remove Hybrid -- or if you do, replace it with a "pass through HD but upconvert 480i to 720p" mode, which would also work for me. Or just let me specify for each of the three resolutions which output mode to use. I'd use:
> 
> ...


serious question- a tv of that vintage, 720p and hdmi that balks at 480i, is maybe older then the tivos? So is the scaler in the tivo really that inferior to the one in your tv- that you just dont pick 720p fixed and let the tivo hande the 1080i to 720p conversion?

Not being argumentative- I'm curious what you think.


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## AZrob (Mar 31, 2002)

I use Hybrid 720P because it allows the SD shows to look better when seen at 480P than when upconverted to 720P. I would NOT be happy if that option was taken away.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Fixed 720p. I've got a 720p TV that balks at 480i over HDMI.

I tried hybrid 720p to see whether the TiVo or the TV does better at upconverting the analog signal; it was very close, with the TiVo taking a slight edge over the TV's upconverter.



AZrob said:


> I use Hybrid 720P because it allows the SD shows to look better when seen at 480P than when upconverted to 720P. I would NOT be happy if that option was taken away.


I could be mistaken, but I would have thought that most (if not all) HDTVs would upconvert anything less than the native resolution. For instance, I have a 720p LCD, and I would expect that both 480i and 480p would be upcoverted internally to 720p.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

LoadStar said:


> I could be mistaken, but I would have thought that most (if not all) HDTVs would upconvert anything less than the native resolution. For instance, I have a 720p LCD, and I would expect that both 480i and 480p would be upcoverted internally to 720p.


For fixed-resolution sets, that's mostly true (any input format that the set can handle that isn't the native resolution is up/down-converted to the native res.) That's part of the reason it was a big deal when manufacturers started shipping panels that actually had native resolutions that matched one of the two ATSC HD resolutions (many early fixed-rez HD displays had to scale _every_ input format, and most did poor jobs of it.)

Of course, if the set uses an internal scaler/deinterlacer that does a poorer job than the one in the TiVo, then it makes sense to run the TiVo in fixed <yousetsnativeresolution> to take advantage of the better scaler in the TiVo. If the display has the better scaler, then native might make sense.

My display, being a CRT-based RPTV, can display either 540p or 1080i natively (480i/p are upconverted internally to 540p, the set doesn't handle 720p at all.) So, native isn't an option for me with my current set (720p wouldn't work), so it's either fixed or hybrid. In my case, my set (a Toshiba 65H81) also happens to have a well-known bug in the 480i/p->540p scaler that results in fringing artifacts on high-contrast transitions, meaning 1080i fixed looks much better than hybrid does, so hybrid going away doesn't bother me in the least.

AZrob might be in a similar situation, only where the set does a better job with 480p input than the TiVo would converting it to a fixed rez. I can see where dropping hybrid, for him, would be an issue if that were the case.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

Native for me and thanks for asking. What does dropping that support (there _are_ some users) get us?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

jlib said:


> ... What does dropping that support ...get us?


that's the 64 thousand dollar question right there...


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> that's the 64 thousand dollar question right there...


Why does it need to "get us" anything?


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## SGR215 (Jan 20, 2004)

Native for me. Don't care about hybrid.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Langree said:


> Why does it need to "get us" anything?


so you figure they are going to take a way a feature just to screw with people?

They were all sitting around in an engineering meeting and said "hey you know the code to pick output formats works fine- no one ever complains about it- we have nothign else better to do with our time so lets spend some man-hours there and take away the option of hybrid mode- lets teach those annoying customers of ours a lesson!"

just kidding- So why do you think they would take it away?

maybe i'm too optimistic, but as i posted above seems clear to me that if they are going to remove it from the S3/THD its becasue they need to rework that bit of code. Since that code seems to be just fine the only reason I can see it is becasue they are adding something like 1080p24fps for amazon HD or somethign like that.

The other question as someone else pointed out- is maybe Pony is asking about some new hardware (perhaps S4)- is so then for sure there will be a reason there is new hardware.

you have another thought? Please share. If I'm being hopelessly optimistic then I'd like to know.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

It's possible they'd take it away just because they considered it confusing.


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## dnorth12 (Feb 10, 2005)

1080i fixed. Never used hybrid or native. But may just give them a try to see if I might want to change sides.


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## doraemon (Sep 18, 2006)

Hybrid here. TV is too old to have HDMI and does not support 720p, only 480i/p and 1080i. Could probably live with 1080i Fixed, I suppose.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> It's possible they'd take it away just because they considered it confusing.


so you really think they will spend time and money to remove it becasue it's confusing? Is it really possible that there are that many support calls over an OPTION that it's worth their time and money to get rid of it? Wouldn't most people that dont understand it just ignore it and pick another option?


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> so you really think they will spend time and money to remove it becasue it's confusing? Is it really possible that there are that many support calls over an OPTION that it's worth their time and money to get rid of it? Wouldn't most people that dont understand it just ignore it and pick another option?


Depends on the nature of the support calls. Hybrid is probably used most by people with older HDMI sets (or component in only sets.) If you're running into issues with older sets, say, not doing HDCP handshaking correctly on resolution changes because they're in hybrid (yes, I'm making that case up, but it's a not-too-unlikely scenario), then there might be enough support calls to justify removing it if it won't be badly missed. But we really don't know, since Pony's not saying (nor do I expect him to, really.)

As I see it, the most likely reasons are, in no particular order (a) support issues stemming from something related to the mode, (b) new hardware that can't support that mode (c) a need to rework that part of the code , possibly to add new more-desirable features, where the rework would be simpler without it.

I said earlier it was unlikely that they'd drop the feature to 'make room' for some new code, but thinking on it further, that could be the case if the code lives in memory-constrained firmware (i.e. they have to set up the configurations in the hardware and have limited RAM to do it in.) But that would be 'making room' for very specific changes like the one you've described, not for code supporting more ads (as the poster I was responding to was suggesting.)


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## mazman (Nov 13, 2002)

I like the Hybrid because it allows me to strech 480i to widescreen if I wish.


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## BJezz (Jan 12, 2009)

MichaelK said:


> so you really think they will spend time and money to remove it becasue it's confusing? Is it really possible that there are that many support calls over an OPTION that it's worth their time and money to get rid of it? Wouldn't most people that dont understand it just ignore it and pick another option?


I'd like to agree with you, but I've worked on a few projects where some functionality has caused confusion or has caused problems when used completely inappropriately. To resolve the solution the functionality has just been removed.

I do not think removing functionality for this reason is a good idea though. I think that if somebody has a problem with a function then they are at least trying to use it, so I don't see how removing the function is solving their problem.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> so you really think they will spend time and money to remove it becasue it's confusing?


I expect it would be about a five-second job -- just deleting a few lines from the menu.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

BJezz and wmcbrine- 
thanks for the insight

learn something new everyday....


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

Fixed on both my S3 and HD. I sometimes play with native do not care about hybrid.


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## jstrangfeld (Jul 24, 2006)

Sorry to bump this "semi old" thread.
On my S3 I am currently using native, that being said it would be nice to be able to be able to map an incoming signal to an output signal so that for each one I could pick if I want the Tivo to output 480i/p,720p or 1080i, this would allow for the most flexibility and avoid problems with native resolutions.

If that would be to complex for Joe Blow user you could have it under an advanced menu?


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## sgip2000 (Jun 19, 2009)

I use hybrid mode to upconvert 480i content to 480p. Looks slightly better.


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## FiosUser (Nov 16, 2007)

Hey I have a TV that doesn't support 480i over HDMI. My TV is not that old (only a couple of years). It is a Samsung LCD.

Therefore, I think I'm dead without the Hybrid output.

Is there another way I'm missing?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

FiosUser said:


> Hey I have a TV that doesn't support 480i over HDMI. My TV is not that old (only a couple of years). It is a Samsung LCD.
> 
> Therefore, I think I'm dead without the Hybrid output.
> 
> Is there another way I'm missing?


Fixed mode.


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

I only use native.


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## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

Hi, 
I use Native, BUT I think Hybrid support is critical. Everyone I setup with Tivo (5-6 friends so far), I use hybrid mode on (they have new TVs).
The reason, is they don't want native because of the lag time in their TV resyncing resolutions, but they don't want fixed, because usually they want to setup some time of zoom option (on their TV) for 480i/480p content (which is 4x3).
Hybrid offers the best of both worlds. I don't use it because I prefer max picture quality (Native) and hate zooming 4x3.
-Shaown


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

Put me in the native category as well


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## SandDune (Apr 7, 2007)

Two native, one fixed. The 16x9 set gets the fixed. The two older 4x3 sets get native (since they adjust to anything). Never use Hybrid.


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## Rick313 (Mar 29, 2009)

sgip2000 said:


> I use hybrid mode to upconvert 480i content to 480p. Looks slightly better.


Same here. Hybrid provides a slightly better SD picture on my 32" Vizio HDTV.


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## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

Use Hybrid 1080i for my Sony 40XBR700 except when watching the following:

1. SD content being re-broadcast, pillar boxed but still in HD, in which case I use 480p fixed with "zoom" aspect or else the I get 4:3 content with both pillars and letterbox (turns my 40" CRT into a 30" or so!)

2. Netflix, which I usually use 1080i fixed and have to be sure live tv is set to "full" before starting the stream (which is very annoying, I hope Tivo fixes that soon)


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

I use hybrid. I would be very miffed if it disappeared.

My panel doesn't do 480i by HDMI. Also my panel doesn't allow aspect adjustment except in 480i or p. So I can't use native, I'll never see 480i. I need to use 480p or I can't use the aspect correction.

I want to use the correct resolution for HD as my panel handels both 720p and 1080i quite nicely.

Basically, my system needs hybrid.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Back on the subject of hybrid, I think TiVo could reduce complexity and improve flexibility if it would abandon its current options and adopt a setup more in line with that of Cisco DVRs, i.e.:

Video Output Options

1080i (default)
720p
480p
480i
Custom>

Custom Menu

Source Output
480i [<1080i>]
480p [<1080i>]
720p [<1080i>]
1080i [<1080i>]
Menus [<1080i>]


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## i2k (Apr 3, 2008)

I use native


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## TerpBE (Jan 23, 2003)

I use native, but my Tivo takes so long switching between SD and HD that my TV thinks there is no signal. So my screen goes black and it says "No Signal", and I either have to toggle the Tivo between SD and HD (by changing channels), or change the TV to another video source and back.

It's really annoying and I probably should have tried replacing my Tivo, but I didn't feel like going through the hassle.

Anyway, what would fix my problem would be to have a mode where *all HD content was passed through natively, and all SD content was passed through at some HD resolution *(720p or 1080i...doesn't really matter which). Currently my only option is to always output at 720p or 1080i, but that leads to some quality loss when the source is using the other HD format.


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## jstrangfeld (Jul 24, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Back on the subject of hybrid, I think TiVo could reduce complexity and improve flexibility if it would abandon its current options and adopt a setup more in line with that of Cisco DVRs, i.e.:
> 
> Video Output Options
> 
> ...


+1


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## adnyla (Sep 24, 2002)

sgip2000 said:


> I use hybrid mode to upconvert 480i content to 480p. Looks slightly better.


I do the same and I like it. I guess I'd be okay with upconverting everything to 1080p, but I don't like the fixed options of either 720p or 1080i as it seems I'm losing something either way. My display is 1080i/p capable but my cableco sends channels in each resolution.


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## RhoXS (Mar 27, 2006)

We have relatively new TVs with our two Tivo HDs that display everything in their native 1080i mode. So, that leads to what I think is the real question; which does a better job of up converting to 1080i, the TVs (in our case Sony V & W series) or the Tivo?

I really don't know but my instinct tell me the Sonys probably do an equal or better job. Therefore, I set the Tivos to output (via HDMI cables) in whatever mode the program source is in then the TV does the rest.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

bkdtv said:


> Back on the subject of hybrid, I think TiVo could reduce complexity and improve flexibility if it would abandon its current options and adopt a setup more in line with that of Cisco DVRs ...


+2, makes perfect sense.

Perhaps the "Menus" setting could also be used when displaying photos. It would be great to have 1080i/p photo output.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

I have one of the dumbest 720p HDTv's ever made in terms of syncing and channel changing in my bedroom, yet it is one of the best looking, 32" sharp Aquos models. The silly thing has to "resync?" everytime a channel change occurs to a different video format so I use fixed 720p on it with the Tivo HD. Native mode is TORTURE with this TV.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Need to keep Fixed
Need to keep Native

But even more importantly, you *NEED TO MAKE AN HD UI!*

The limited amount of information being shown on every area (guide, ToDo, SP, WL, etc.) is rediculous, to say nothing of the oval-circles...


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ferrumpneuma said:


> Tivopony can you give us a reason for the questions?


My guess is on a new software release of the Series 3 (all three models) software TiVo wants to remove that option to make things simpler if nobody is using or needs Hybird mode, I sure don't need it as all I used is fixed 1080i


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

What is the reason for a Hybrid mode?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> What is the reason for a Hybrid mode?


It's an alternative to native for those displays which cannot accept 480i through HDMI. It works like native, except it outputs all SD (480i) channels at 480p.

All these fixed, hybrid, and native modes are confusing to the average user. As I suggested on the previous page, the following is a much more elegant solution:

Video Output Options

1080i (default)
720p
480p
480i
Custom>

Custom Menu

Source Output
480i [<1080i>]
480p [<1080i>]
720p [<1080i>]
1080i [<1080i>]
Menus [<1080i>] _<-- If current software doesn't support this, leave it out for now._

There should be a confirmation message telling the user that they can reset the TiVo to the default settings by pressing the FORMAT button on the front of the unit. Ideally, this confirmation screen would have a graphic of the TiVo front panel showing the placement of the FORMAT button.


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## BJezz (Jan 12, 2009)

I agree with the custom menu, but I think native mode should remain in the standard menu.


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## bradenmcg (Dec 29, 2007)

BJezz said:


> I agree with the custom menu, but I think native mode should remain in the standard menu.


The problem with Native is that many users don't really understand the ramifications of Native mode. They don't get that this can mean annoying black screens while changing through channels due to their TV having to re-sync to the new resolution.

Personally, I run my 1080p panel at 1080i fixed, and my 720p plasma at 720p fixed... because in both cases, I trust TiVo's scaler & converter over the TV's.


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## jeffw_00 (Sep 19, 2000)

All I care about is FIXED mode (I use 1080i FIXED) as my HDTV can't easily handle switching between modes all the time. When my TiVo is in Fixed mode, and I change channels... the TV instantly displays the show. In Native mode, it takes the TV 3 to 5 seconds to fix itself to the new format. And it's a recent SAMSUNG LCD model. Very popular I'm told, and all their models work (or don't work) the same way. 

What impresses me is how sometimes std def seems to fill the screen and i don't notice any artifacts. Much better than the TV's stretch modes.


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## Dave_N (May 4, 2006)

Another vote for Fixed and Native being sufficient.


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## ZXTT95 (Oct 31, 2007)

I only need Native, but Fixed should certainly be there.

Like others, I would love to see the current HD resolution used for menus!

Finally, there is still a strange bug that causes at least one of my TiVos to go from Native/Hybrid to Fixed without me doing anything. It's a TiVo HD and has done this for the 1.5+ years I've had it.


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