# I bet you didn't see that coming!



## Davisadm

Tomorrow is going to be an exciting TiVo day!


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## hefe

Didn't see what coming? Still don't see it.


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## krkaufman

Davisadm said:


> Tomorrow is going to be an exciting TiVo day!


In the end, it makes total sense to release it on hump day.


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## thefisch

About time. Still don't get releasing it after shows have started. Better be worth it!


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## innocentfreak

I just hope there is something I want.


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## krkaufman

thefisch said:


> About time. Still don't get releasing it after shows have started. Better be worth it!


Almost makes more sense nowadays, since it would quickly demonstrate the value of OnePass... even more if they included free trials to the various streaming services.


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## b_scott

Gonna have to be life changing for me to upgrade from my Premiere.


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## hefe

Does anyone know what this is actually about?


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## moyekj

hefe said:


> Does anyone know what this is actually about?


 Series 6 TiVos - A.K.A. Bolt


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## hefe

Ah. Thought it might be the Spanish Inquisition.


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## SeanC

NOOOOOOOOOOOO One expects the Spanish Inquisition!


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## slowbiscuit

innocentfreak said:


> I just hope there is something I want.


If the only really new thing is 4k support, the answer will be no for me.


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## thefisch

moyekj said:


> Series 6 TiVos - A.K.A. Bolt


Didn't the model numbers from the cable labs post show these these are still Series 5?


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## lessd

slowbiscuit said:


> If the only really new thing is 4k support, the answer will be no for me.


Outside of 4K hardware change what other hardware upgrade would allow TiVo to make a better UI/Apps that can't be ported over to the Roamio ?


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## BigJimOutlaw

thefisch said:


> Didn't the model numbers from the cable labs post show these these are still Series 5?


Yep. But despite the model numbers a leaked video showed it labeled as Series 6.

http://zatznotfunny.com/2015-09/tivo-bolt-interface/


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## thefisch

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yep. But despite the model numbers a leaked video showed it labeled as Series 6.
> 
> http://zatznotfunny.com/2015-09/tivo-bolt-interface/


Thanks. I missed that.


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## b_scott

lessd said:


> Outside of 4K hardware change what other hardware upgrade would allow TiVo to make a better UI/Apps that can't be ported over to the Roamio ?


we've reached the point of diminishing returns on new DVRs. Soon all TV will be apps.


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## wyoungmann

Tomorrow morning, the CEO of TIVO (Tom Rogers) will be on CNBC's Squawk Box. Set your Tivos!


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## b_scott

thefisch said:


> Thanks. I missed that.


LOL at the comments. "The HDUI is nearly complete!"

5 years later.


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## atmuscarella

b_scott said:


> we've reached the point of diminishing returns on new DVRs. Soon all TV will be apps.


I tend to agree, unless someone needs a new DVR or the expected 4K/UHD abilities coming with the Bolt not much reason to upgrade from a Roamio. But then I think the same thing about most modern electronics (TVs, Receivers, Computers, etc.) about the only companies getting people to do regular unneeded upgrades are the cell phone manufactures.


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## Davisadm

The Bolt? That is old news!


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## innocentfreak

Davisadm said:


> The Bolt? That is old news!


Stirring the pot I see


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## sangs

Davisadm said:


> The Bolt? That is old news!


Say what now?


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## davezatz

The Mega Bolt?!


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## uw69

davezatz said:


> The Mega Bolt?!


lol


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## kbmb

Then tomorrow marks the day that Premiere owners will be officially shown the door....and all us Roamio owners will start complaining how we don't get any new features moving forward!!!



-Kevin


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## b_scott

kbmb said:


> Then tomorrow marks the day that Premiere owners will be officially shown the door....and all us Roamio owners will start complaining how we don't get any new features moving forward!!!
> 
> 
> 
> -Kevin


Both my premieres have been recording TV just fine for 5 years and will continue to do so. My Xbox One does everything else.


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## thefisch

Time for a new forum. One more to hop too.

So what can the orphaned Roamio owners expect now? No more updates?


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## wmcbrine

thefisch said:


> So what can the orphaned Roamio owners expect now? No more updates?


Even Premieres got the most recent updates. Roamios won't be orphaned that quickly.


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## innocentfreak

thefisch said:


> Time for a new forum. One more to hop too.
> 
> So what can the orphaned Roamio owners expect now? No more updates?


Premiere still gets updates so nothing should change. This of course is the big advantage of having a unified platform. The only reason it would be excluded hopefully is the hardware can't handle it like when the Premiere launched and the TiVo HD wasn't given the HDUI.


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## atmuscarella

kbmb said:


> Then tomorrow marks the day that Premiere owners will be officially shown the door....and all us Roamio owners will start complaining how we don't get any new features moving forward!!!
> 
> 
> 
> -Kevin





thefisch said:


> Time for a new forum. One more to hop too.
> 
> So what can the orphaned Roamio owners expect now? No more updates?


Lets be honest how many new "Bolts" is TiVo likely to sell over the next 6 months to a year? Maybe a few hundred thousand? If TiVo wants to get any new or even keep the current apps up to date they need all the Premieres and Roamios to have enough numbers to get any streaming company the least bit interested. So I would expect full support on those platforms for anything the hardware can support.


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## Dan203

Davisadm said:


> The Bolt? That is old news!


Still wondering if maybe there is some sort of cloud component here. An OTA DVR coupled with a cloud DVR capable of receiving and recording the most popular cable channels (ala SlingTV) would be a game changer for the cord cutter market.


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## kbmb

b_scott said:


> Both my premieres have been recording TV just fine for 5 years and will continue to do so. My Xbox One does everything else.


I was talking more about the fancy "other" things like apps etc.

-Kevin


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## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> Still wondering if maybe there is some sort of cloud component here. An OTA DVR coupled with a cloud DVR capable of receiving and recording the most popular cable channels (ala SlingTV) would be a game changer for the cord cutter market.


Yeah, even if the Bolt Aereo Edition isn't something I'll upgrade to, I'd really love to see TiVo introduce some new kind of service or feature set that shows it's trying to innovate in the cord-cutter market, something worthy of the Aereo brand. If it just turns out to be a Roamio OTA in a funky looking box with the ability to stream UHD content from Netflix and Amazon, I'm not going to be impressed. Glad the wait is finally almost over!


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## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> Still wondering if maybe there is some sort of cloud component here. An OTA DVR coupled with a cloud DVR capable of receiving and recording the most popular cable channels (ala SlingTV) would be a game changer for the cord cutter market.


Ditto


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## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> Still wondering if maybe there is some sort of cloud component here. An OTA DVR coupled with a cloud DVR capable of receiving and recording the most popular cable channels (ala SlingTV) would be a game changer for the cord cutter market.


No. Not now anyway.


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## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> Still wondering if maybe there is some sort of cloud component here. An OTA DVR coupled with a cloud DVR capable of receiving and recording the most popular cable channels (ala SlingTV) would be a game changer for the cord cutter market.


Well clouds are white. 

But don't see why one would need a new Tivo for that purpose. Maybe a faster chip to run a better looking UI?


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## Dan203

davezatz said:


> No. Not now anyway.


Do you know what Davisadm is referring to?


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## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> Well clouds are white.
> 
> But don't see why one would need a new Tivo for that purpose. Maybe a faster chip to run a better looking UI?


It wouldn't. The current Roamio OTA would work fine. However the new hardware might be cheaper so they don't have to subsidize it so much for the $50 OTA version. That video posted in the other thread already indicated it only had a 320GB hard drive, which is smaller then the OTA.


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## Kremlar

There is a 500GB Bolt and 1000GB.


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## Craig in PA

@TiVo tweeted a link to this:

https://www.tivo.com/maintenance-page

Won't be long.


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## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> It wouldn't. The current Roamio OTA would work fine. However the new hardware might be cheaper so they don't have to subsidize it so much for the $50 OTA version. That video posted in the other thread already indicated it only had a 320GB hard drive, which is smaller then the OTA.


Except the price difference between a 320gb hd and a 500gb hd is pretty much $0 so there goes that evidence. IF the new one uses a laptop drive, like some speculated, then we're talking price increase.

btw....what does cord cutter really mean if you pay for cable tv channels to be streamed to you?


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## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> btw....what does cord cutter really mean if you pay for cable tv channels to be streamed to you?


Giving the finger to the cable company and their over priced "bundles".


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## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> Giving the finger to the cable company and their over priced "bundles".


Yeah by writing the cable company a check for data and then paying more per channel to the streaming tv company.


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## montivette

At around 7:45 PM central I was able to view bolt features and options via link on this page
https://www.tivo.com/tivo-mma/login/show.do

I added Bolt to cart, but attempts to login failed. Then they took access away and maintenance page appeared. Should have printed page cause I already forgot what I saw.

Someone else was smarter than me and did take some screenshots.
http://t.co/i6zKKBWaqx

My recollection is:
500gb with 1yr service $299
1000gb with 1 year service $399
Saw no option for lifetime.


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## aaronwt

So like in 2006 with the S3, is Lifetime dead again with the Bolt?


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## innocentfreak

You couldn't add to cart or at least I couldn't so no way to see pricing of service options. The page just had that the price and said it included a year.


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## Davisadm

kbmb said:


> ....and all us Roamio owners will start complaining how we don't get any new features moving forward!!!


lol

We will be skipping quickly!


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## innocentfreak

Davisadm said:


> lol
> 
> We will be skipping quickly!


Not sure how to read this. The fact there was a graphic saying it isn't offered on the Roamio from their site either means they won't roll it out soon or at all. If they didn't have the graph I think it would be easier to swallow.


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## trip1eX

Yes you are right OP. I did not see this coming. 4 tuners and 1tb storage for $1000. But you can autoskip commercials in some shows and watch your shows at a 30% faster clip without the voices sounding funny.


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## HarperVision

trip1eX said:


> Yes you are right OP. I did not see this coming. 4 tuners and 1tb storage for $1000. But you can autoskip commercials in some shows and watch your shows at a 30% faster clip without the voices sounding funny.


Yippee!


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## NotNowChief

PLS for 600 bucks after the first year! I just spit out my coffee.

Are they smoking crack?


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## b_scott

montivette said:


> At around 7:45 PM central I was able to view bolt features and options via link on this page
> https://www.tivo.com/tivo-mma/login/show.do
> 
> I added Bolt to cart, but attempts to login failed. Then they took access away and maintenance page appeared. Should have printed page cause I already forgot what I saw.
> 
> Someone else was smarter than me and did take some screenshots.
> http://t.co/i6zKKBWaqx
> 
> My recollection is:
> 500gb with 1yr service $299
> 1000gb with 1 year service $399
> Saw no option for lifetime.


weird...... skip mode. Cable will not like that.

Quick Mode sounds very odd.


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## nshahzad

I'll either wait for a Bolt Pro w/ 6 tuners, or maybe just take the plunge and build an HTPC. Though I'm pretty happy with the Roamio atm.

The skip mode does sound tasty though. Quick mode might be useful when watching futbol matches that are recorded for later.


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## Chuck_IV

NotNowChief said:


> PLS for 600 bucks after the first year! I just spit out my coffee.
> 
> Are they smoking crack?


I thought the same thing. I seems to me that they really don't want to sell lifetimes for the bolt but don't want to get the negative feedback that they don't offer it as an option. So they just price it way too high so few people will buy it.


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## wmcbrine

b_scott said:


> Quick Mode sounds very odd.


It's just like 1.5x in YouTube, or in a player like VLC.


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## Dan203

nshahzad said:


> I'll either wait for a Bolt Pro w/ 6 tuners, or maybe just take the plunge and build an HTPC. Though I'm pretty happy with the Roamio atm.
> 
> The skip mode does sound tasty though. Quick mode might be useful when watching futbol matches that are recorded for later.


Unless you're OTA only an HTPC is no longer a viable option. Media Center is dead and as of right now there is no other way to record CableCARD content on an HTPC. In fact for CableCARDs TiVo is pretty much the only option now.


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## Xab

NotNowChief said:


> PLS for 600 bucks after the first year! I just spit out my coffee.
> 
> Are they smoking crack?


It's even worse - you apparently can't get it except at time of purchase, which means that if you spend the $600 large on lifetime, you lose out on a free year worth of service.


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## Dan203

Essentially making it $750 for lifetime. And you lose the continual warranty so you're taking on the full replacement cost if it should fail after 90 days.


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## Balzer

Davisadm said:


> Tomorrow is going to be an exciting TiVo day!


Sorry, but not too exciting for me. I actually like the design, but not the color. And the features and ridiculous cost for Lifetime are not enough for me to want one.

I do want the commercial skip feature and the quick mode is interesting, but that should be software that can be ported to my Roamio Plus, right? One can only hope.


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## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> Essentially making it $750 for lifetime. And you lose the continual warranty so you're taking on the full replacement cost if it should fail after 90 days.


Actually it looks like TiVo is getting paid up front for the hardware and giving 1 years worth of service for free. Before they were subsidizing the hardware costs within the service costs on the units.
After the 1 year is up you can opt for continuing the year to year deal or opt for lifetime at $600, which is 4 years of service.
You will have to keep the Bolt for 5 years in order to break even.

If you buy your Bolt from a retailer you will have the option to go with lifetime for $600 and lose the 1 year free service deal.
You will have to keep the Bolt for 4 years to break even.


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## krkaufman

Jed1 said:


> If you buy your Bolt from a retailer you will have the option to go with lifetime for $600 and lose the 1 year free service deal.
> You will have to keep the Bolt for 4 years to break even.


I'm not seeing the same math. If I buy from a retailer I'm paying $300 up-front, and would still need to pay TiVo $600 for All-In service. Right? Or are you seeing some avenue where a Bolt can be had via retail for $150?


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## Dan203

This is essentially a way to kill lifetime without actually taking it away completely. It's a terrible deal now, but if you just refuse to pay a yearly fee then it's still an option.


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## Jed1

krkaufman said:


> I'm not seeing the same math. If I buy from a retailer I'm paying $300 up-front, and would still need to pay TiVo $600 for All-In service. Right? Or are you seeing some avenue where a Bolt can be had via retail for $150?


Correct you will pay $900 total for the unit, $300 for hardware and $600 for all in which is 4 years of service. The problem with this is if TiVo releases a new model two years from now you will have to keep your unit for 2 more years to get back what you gave TiVo upfront for the service.
The big problem with this is you lose the 1 year free service and no continual care warranty.

If you go with the current deal you pay $300 for hardware and get 1 year free service at $150 and then pay $150/year going forward. This also includes continual care warranty. If TiVo comes out with a new unit then you can just wait until your service commitment is over and then just upgrade and not worry about recouping the additional years of service that you did not use.

In the past TiVo was subsidizing the hardware costs by spreading them out in the service costs and now they are subsidizing the service costs for 1 year by including it in with the hardware costs.


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## Dan203

Jed1 said:


> Correct you will pay $900 total for the unit, $300 for hardware and $600 for all in which is 4 years of service.


It's 5 years of service. If you pay yearly then the Bolt includes the first year of service free. So you pay $300 for the box and get first year free, then you pay $600 for the next 4 years. So 5 years of yearly service before you break even on the price of lifetime now.


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## thefisch

I agree it is a lifetime killer. I see no incentive to get the AIP for $600 until your year is up unless they offer some discount along the way. Use the 1 year of service included in the price and then decide (1) if you love the box and will use it for more than the next 4 years; (2) want to upgrade to the next series a year later so just pay $150 (3) or get rid of it.

Perhaps they will still have lifetime deals under the loyalty program. Time will tell.


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## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> It's 5 years of service. If you pay yearly then the Bolt includes the first year of service free. So you pay $300 for the box and get first year free, then you pay $600 for the next 4 years. So 5 years of yearly service before you break even on the price of lifetime now.


That is correct if you buy directly from TiVo or you agree to the one year free if you buy from an outside vendor. You do have the option up front to get All In instead of the free year if you buy from an outside vendor, which will shorten the service to 4 years but you lose the 1 year free.


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## keenanSR

Jed1 said:


> Correct you will pay $900 total for the unit, $300 for hardware and $600 for all in which is 4 years of service. The problem with this is if TiVo releases a new model two years from now you will have to keep your unit for 2 more years to get back what you gave TiVo upfront for the service.
> The big problem with this is you lose the 1 year free service and no continual care warranty.
> 
> If you go with the current deal you pay $300 for hardware and get 1 year free service at $150 and then pay $150/year going forward. This also includes continual care warranty. If TiVo comes out with a new unit then you can just wait until your service commitment is over and then just upgrade and not worry about recouping the additional years of service that you did not use.
> 
> In the past TiVo was subsidizing the hardware costs by spreading them out in the service costs and now they are subsidizing the service costs for 1 year by including it in with the hardware costs.


Seems odd that TiVo is going this route, just at the time when cell carriers are doing away with it.


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## lessd

keenanSR said:


> Seems odd that TiVo is going this route, just at the time when cell carriers are doing away with it.


If this new pricing does not work, TiVo can go back as they did with the Mini (At first $99 + $150 for lifetime, now $149 inc. Lifetime)


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## keenanSR

lessd said:


> If this new pricing does not work, TiVo can go back as they did with the Mini (At first $99 + $150 for lifetime, now $149 inc. Lifetime)


I hope they do a reverse on that Lifetime pricing, if not I think I've already bought my last TiVo.


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## Dan203

Jed1 said:


> That is correct if you buy directly from TiVo or you agree to the one year free if you buy from an outside vendor. You do have the option up front to get All In instead of the free year if you buy from an outside vendor, which will shorten the service to 4 years but you lose the 1 year free.


The price from TiVo and outside vendors is the same. So no matter where you buy it from the price is still equivalent to 5 years of service.

Scenario 1 - You buy from TiVo for $300, after your initial year is up you decide to go "all in" and pay $600. Total cost $900

Scenario 2 - You buy from Amazon for $300, you decide to go "all in" when you activate and pay $600. Total cost $900.

Scenario 3 - You buy from TiVo for $300, after your initial year is up you're billed $150/year for the next 4 years, for a total of 5 years of service. Total cost $900.

Scenario 4 - You buy from Amazon for $300, after your initial year is up you're billed $150/year for the next 4 years, for a total of 5 years of service. Total cost $900.

Break even on "all in" is 5 years, no matter where you get the box from. The only difference is when you pay for it.


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## lessd

Dan203 said:


> The price from TiVo and outside vendors is the same. So no matter where you buy it from the price is still equivalent to 5 years of service.
> 
> Scenario 1 - You buy from TiVo for $300, after your initial year is up you decide to go "all in" and pay $600. Total cost $900
> 
> Scenario 2 - You buy from Amazon for $300, you decide to go "all in" when you activate and pay $600. Total cost $900.
> 
> Scenario 3 - You buy from TiVo for $300, after your initial year is up you're billed $150/year for the next 4 years, for a total of 5 years of service. Total cost $900.
> 
> Scenario 4 - You buy from Amazon for $300, after your initial year is up you're billed $150/year for the next 4 years, for a total of 5 years of service. Total cost $900.
> 
> Break even on "all in" is 5 years, no matter where you get the box from. The only difference is when you pay for it.


Good analogy except if the "all in" has any good value after 5 years on E-Bay


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## Dan203

If TiVo is going to start upgrading the hardware every 2-3 years then it's still a bad value. Assume the difference is that you either pay yearly and throw the TiVo into the trash when you upgrade in 2 years or you pay for "all in" and sell it on eBay. You would need to sell it for $450 (plus shipping, fees, hassle) just to break even. I've never seen a previous gen unit go for that much after a new unit has been released.


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## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> The price from TiVo and outside vendors is the same. So no matter where you buy it from the price is still equivalent to 5 years of service.
> 
> Scenario 1 - You buy from TiVo for $300, after your initial year is up you decide to go "all in" and pay $600. Total cost $900
> 
> Scenario 2 - You buy from Amazon for $300, you decide to go "all in" when you activate and pay $600. Total cost $900.
> 
> Scenario 3 - You buy from TiVo for $300, after your initial year is up you're billed $150/year for the next 4 years, for a total of 5 years of service. Total cost $900.
> 
> Scenario 4 - You buy from Amazon for $300, after your initial year is up you're billed $150/year for the next 4 years, for a total of 5 years of service. Total cost $900.
> 
> Break even on "all in" is 5 years, no matter where you get the box from. The only difference is when you pay for it.


The problem is are you going to keep the unit for 4 years if you buy the service up front or keep the unit for 5 years if you take the 1 year free service and then buy the All In. 
If you do not intend to keep your Bolt for 4 or 5 years then it makes sense just to do the yearly deal which also includes the continual care warranty.
Right now in order for me to get back the money I gave TiVo for my two lifetime Premieres I must keep them until the fall of 2018 to get back what I gave them. After that I am getting free service from them.
Knowing what I know today I would have never done this as I should have opted for monthly.


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## lessd

Dan203 said:


> If TiVo is going to start upgrading the hardware every 2-3 years then it's still a bad value. Assume the difference is that you either pay yearly and throw the TiVo into the trash when you upgrade in 2 years or you pay for "all in" and sell it on eBay. You would need to sell it for $450 (plus shipping, fees, hassle) just to break even. I've never seen a previous gen unit go for that much after a new unit has been released.


In the past I have sold my Lifetime TiVos on E-Bay and purchased the new model, that has been the less expensive way of doing things, but as I said that was in the past, if Lifetime for a Roamio is now $600 that should increase the price of my Lifetime Roamios on E-Bay if I wanted to change models, at this time I sure don't as I want 6 tuners.


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## Jed1

keenanSR said:


> Seems odd that TiVo is going this route, just at the time when cell carriers are doing away with it.


I gave up on cell phones a long while ago as I really did not need one. With TiVo it makes sense as they own the hardware and the service so I see them going with this yearly plan as a good idea. It takes way to long to get your money out of a lifetime box.


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## Dan203

Jed1 said:


> The problem is are you going to keep the unit for 4 years if you buy the service up front or keep the unit for 5 years if you take the 1 year free service and then buy the All In.


I still don't get where you're getting 4 years from. No matter what there is 1 year built into the price of the unit. $600 is equivalent to 4 years of service. So you're paying the equivalent of 5 years of service "all in" no matter what. The only difference between buying retail and buying from TiVo is that when you buy from TiVo you get the option to go "all in" after the first year is up and when you buy retail you have to decide immediately. The only difference is when you pay for it, not how much you pay for it.

In the past there has been a similar break even point on lifetime but it's typically been ~3 years. And the resale value of TiVos with lifetime made that a good proposition. Keep the TiVo for 3 years, sell it for 1/2-2/3 what you paid for it, and essentially you only paid for maybe a year or so of service. Now with the break even pushed out to 5 years "all in" is unlikely to have significant value once you reach the break even point. And if you sell early you need to recoup a lot just to prevent "all in" from being a losing proposition.

As I said before this is essentially a way to kill the value of lifetime without actually taking it away completely.


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## MikeBear

keenanSR said:


> Seems odd that TiVo is going this route, just at the time when cell carriers are doing away with it.


They've pretty much run out of companies to SUE, so they don't have a likely revenue stream anymore.

Gotta go subscription to make up for it....

Of course, they've waited too long, and people are now adverse to paying for monthly subscriptions...

I'd bet by next Summer (if not sooner) the pricing will revert back to this Summers pricing, or Tivo might as well as kiss their ass goodbye.


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## Dan203

This summer's pricing was great, but I don't think TiVo could survive on that long term. The hardware likely costs them close to the wholesale price. So their only source of revenue is service. At $250 for lifetime they would need to sell a LOT of units to survive as a company, and I'm not sure they could get that kind of volume. 

The current "all in" pricing seems to be a way to deter people from buying it without completely removing the option for those who are completely adverse to paying a reoccurring fee.


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## Kremlar

> The only difference between buying retail and buying from TiVo is that when you buy from TiVo you get the option to go "all in" after the first year is up and when you buy retail you have to decide immediately


What did I miss? What makes you think you have to decide immediately on the lifetime when purchased through retail?


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## Dan203

The wording says you'll have the option to go "all in" at the time of activation.


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## Kremlar

> The wording says you'll have the option to go "all in" at the time of activation.


Strange... I'd like to think that TiVo would take my $600 at any time.


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## wmcbrine

Dan203 said:


> The wording says you'll have the option to go "all in" at the time of activation.


Yes. But it does NOT say that you WON'T have the option afterwards. People are reading way too much into this.


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## Dan203

Kremlar said:


> Strange... I'd like to think that TiVo would take my $600 at any time.


I'm sure they would if you called. Just make sure you do it before the initial year is up so you don't get billed another $150.


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## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> I still don't get where you're getting 4 years from. No matter what there is 1 year built into the price of the unit. $600 is equivalent to 4 years of service. So you're paying the equivalent of 5 years of service "all in" no matter what. The only difference between buying retail and buying from TiVo is that when you buy from TiVo you get the option to go "all in" after the first year is up and when you buy retail you have to decide immediately. The only difference is when you pay for it, not how much you pay for it.
> 
> In the past there has been a similar break even point on lifetime but it's typically been ~3 years. And the resale value of TiVos with lifetime made that a good proposition. Keep the TiVo for 3 years, sell it for 1/2-2/3 what you paid for it, and essentially you only paid for maybe a year or so of service. Now with the break even pushed out to 5 years "all in" is unlikely to have significant value once you reach the break even point. And if you sell early you need to recoup a lot just to prevent "all in" from being a losing proposition.
> 
> As I said before this is essentially a way to kill the value of lifetime without actually taking it away completely.


Where I am getting the 4 years from is when you buy your Bolt from a retailer you will have two options, take the free year or opt for All In. If you opt for All In you do not get the free year so valuing the service to the yearly service it comes out to 4 years.
It appears you can take the free year and then opt for All In after that for retail purchase. I am not certain though as they have a lot of language between new units purchased from TiVo or retailers and then units that have previously purchased service.

I do agree that it appears that TiVo is killing the value of lifetime.


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## Dan203

Jed1 said:


> Where I am getting the 4 years from is when you buy your Bolt from a retailer you will have two options, take the free year or opt for All In. If you opt for All In you do not get the free year so valuing the service to the yearly service it comes out to 4 years.
> It appears you can take the free year and then opt for All In after that for retail purchase. I am not certain though as they have a lot of language between new units purchased from TiVo or retailers and then units that have previously purchased service.
> 
> I do agree that it appears that TiVo is killing the value of lifetime.


You're looking at it wrong. Whether you take "all in" immediately or after the first year you still paid for that first year as part of the box price. So you're still paying the equivalent of 5 years of service when compared to the yearly plan. The break even point on "all in" is 5 years, no matter when you pay for it, because they don't prorate the price if you do it early.


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## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> The wording says you'll have the option to go "all in" at the time of activation.





wmcbrine said:


> Yes. But it does NOT say that you WON'T have the option afterwards. People are reading way too much into this.


And you could always cancel service at the end the first year and then technically you would be "at the time of activation" again.


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## Dan203

tarheelblue32 said:


> And you could always cancel service at the end the first year and then technically you would be "at the time of activation" again.


As I said above I'm sure they'll gladly take your $600 at any time. You just have to be careful not to wait until you've already been billed for year 2.

Personally I think lifetime is now a bad deal and if I get a Bolt I will not be getting it.


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## keenanSR

Dan203 said:


> As I said above I'm sure they'll gladly take your $600 at any time. You just have to be careful not to wait until you've already been billed for year 2.
> 
> Personally I think lifetime is now a bad deal and if I get a Bolt I will not be getting it.


I agree, as much as I hate the yearly charge, hardware changes too fast to justify dropping $600 to avoid it, the ROI just isn't there.


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## innocentfreak

Dan203 said:


> The current "all in" pricing seems to be a way to deter people from buying it without completely removing the option for those who are completely adverse to paying a reoccurring fee.


For me though the price of it definitely deters me and so does the reoccurring fee.

I think if anything I will now be someone who is sitting on the sideline to see what the next hardware looks like and when they roll out a refresh.


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## b_scott

wmcbrine said:


> It's just like 1.5x in YouTube, or in a player like VLC.


yeah, weird. why would I want to watch something in hyperspeed?


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## b_scott

keenanSR said:


> I agree, as much as I hate the yearly charge, hardware changes too fast to justify dropping $600 to avoid it, the ROI just isn't there.


you should never buy electronics for ROI. That's like buying a car as an investment. They're to be used, they aren't real estate.


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## Dan203

b_scott said:


> yeah, weird. why would I want to watch something in hyperspeed?


Because you're busy and want to cram more shows into the free time you have. I think it would be cool to watch a 42 minute show in 30 minutes. As long as it didn't look too weird. Especially talk shows and news.


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## HarperVision

b_scott said:


> yeah, weird. why would I want to watch something in hyperspeed?





Dan203 said:


> Because you're busy and want to cram more shows into the free time you have. I think it would be cool to watch a 42 minute show in 30 minutes. As long as it didn't look too weird. Especially talk shows and news.


Football Baby!!! :up:


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## keenanSR

b_scott said:


> you should never buy electronics for ROI. That's like buying a car as an investment. They're to be used, they aren't real estate.


Quite true, but I think you see my point. Spending the $900 versus what the cableco charges is a very big ask, especially the way hardware changes.


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## keenanSR

b_scott said:


> yeah, weird. why would I want to watch something in hyperspeed?


I don't get that either, that would be a feature I would never use.


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## zerdian1

kbmb said:


> Then tomorrow marks the day that Premiere owners will be officially shown the door....and all us Roamio owners will start complaining how we don't get any new features moving forward!!!
> 
> 
> 
> -Kevin


This is probably very true.
Yesterday, they announced in MSG #112 that "Showcases and TV Guide" would be part of Music and Photos.
but they have been so busy with BOLt that everything for Roamio came to a halt today.
we still have the incomplete * Showcases under Apps & Games.

This is probably just the first of many things no longer going to happen for Series 5 Roamio users while the new Series 6 BOLT gets front and center on the main stage.


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## gigaguy

I was just recently recalled the fast play mode I had on a Sony machine, it was very useful to sometimes watch a show quickly with understandable audio. I'm glad it's coming to Roamio.


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## Dan203

keenanSR said:


> Quite true, but I think you see my point. Spending the $900 versus what the cableco charges is a very big ask, especially the way hardware changes.


Then don't spend $900. Spend $300 for the first year and $150/year there after. That's only $18.75/mo over 2 years, which is less then most cable companies charge.

Lifetime is a bad deal now. You shouldn't consider it unless you are just completely adverse to reoccurring charges.


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## keenanSR

Dan203 said:


> Then don't spend $900. Spend $300 for the first year and $150/year there after. That's only $18.75/mo over 2 years, which is less then most cable companies charge.
> 
> Lifetime is a bad deal now. You shouldn't consider it unless you are just completely adverse to reoccurring charges.


Yes, I agree, the $600 nut for Lifetime makes the $150 per yr more attractive, which is likely the point and clearly more favorable to TiVo's bottom line.


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## atmuscarella

I had no problem spending $590 on a Roamio with lifetime when they were released. It was a major improvement over my Premiere and superior in every way. While the bolt does appear to be superior to the Roamio in nearly every way (being able to upgrade the hard drive the one inferior thing), I certainly would not pay $900 with lifetime for it. While I never really thought the recent clearance pricing was sustainable going this high is crazy. Glad I don't need or even really have any use for another DVR.


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## Jed1

I don't know if this was mentioned in other threads but it also appears that certain services may not be available to customers who opt for the All In plan.



> 4. An All-In Plan (a) lasts for the lifetime of your TiVo device (not your lifetime), (b) is not transferrable to another TiVo device (except in certain warranty replacement/repair cases), and *(c) may exclude certain TiVo offerings (e.g., for third-party content, particular applications, cloud-based services, etc.) for which TiVo subsequently may elect (in its sole discretion) to charge separately and which are not made generally available to all customers who have activated TiVo service on a particular TiVo device.*


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## innocentfreak

This just says if they roll out say a cloud service which costs extra your all in wont cover that cost and you will still need to pay for it. All in essentially just covers the basic TiVo service which makes All In kind of a bad choice as a name.


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## caughey

innocentfreak said:


> This just says if they roll out say a cloud service which costs extra your all in wont cover that cost and you will still need to pay for it. All in essentially just covers the basic TiVo service which makes All In kind of a bad choice as a name.


Yeah, they should change the name to something like "Lifetime."


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## dswallow

Dan203 said:


> Because you're busy and want to cram more shows into the free time you have. I think it would be cool to watch a 42 minute show in 30 minutes. As long as it didn't look too weird. Especially talk shows and news.


I did it all the time when I was using the PS3 for a media player for downloaded shows. I really miss the feature. It'll be nice when it comes to the Roamio.


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## wmcbrine

caughey said:


> Yeah, they should change the name to something like "Lifetime."


But then people would complain, "Hey, I'm still alive! Why can't I transfer service from my old, broken TiVo to a new one?".


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## b_scott

Dan203 said:


> Then don't spend $900. Spend $300 for the first year and $150/year there after. That's only $18.75/mo over 2 years, which is less then most cable companies charge.
> 
> Lifetime is a bad deal now. You shouldn't consider it unless you are just completely adverse to reoccurring charges.


I guess it depends how often you upgrade. I've had my two Premieres since April 2010 and I'm not planning on getting the Bolt. So, 5 years and counting here for my lifetimes.


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## zerdian1

I seem to do a major upgrade each 5 years or so.
I used a number of VCRs recording different channels, which I started increasing the number of VCRs in the late 70's time frame.
I progressed through various VHS VCRs, with bookcases of VHS tapes.
When ReplayTV DVR came out, I first got one, then two and then a third.
after the second generation of ReplayTV they started to have financial problems because the networks were sue ReplayTv over its Commercial Skip function.
TiVo stayed out of Commercial Skip and thus became the only major DVR after a while. some satellite and cable companies bought ReplayTV technology and some bought TiVo technology and some did their own.
I then got several TiVo Series 2 DVRs.
I then went to Dish Network so my wife could get her Brazilian programs.
I had used their earlier DVRs.
When they introduced Dish Hopper I got that system.
I have the Dish Hoppers and Joeys system with 12 tuners and 16TB of storage.
When we moved to the condo, they banned the use of satellite on the roof.
I then got a TiVo Roamio Basic, then added 1TB external storage.
6 months later I added a Roamio Pro with 4TB storage LIFETIME SERVICE..
6 months later I added a WEAKNEES ROAMIO PRO with 12TB and LIFETIME SERVICE.
I NOW HAVE A 17.5 TB TIVO SYSTEM WITH 16 TUNERS IN 5 ROOMS.
I was thinking of adding a BOLT just to use some of its features as my primary TV DVR, if I can:
SPEEDUP videos that were recorded and stored on another TiVo DVR.
COMMERCIAL SKIP videos that were recorded and stored on another TiVo DVR.

Luckily, I am in no rush.

I will check today with TiVo if I can still get a lifetime for $399 for my TiVo Roamio Basic DVR.


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## randian

atmuscarella said:


> While the bolt does appear to be superior to the Roamio in nearly every way (being able to upgrade the hard drive the one inferior thing),


I don't believe that inability to upgrade the drive has been confirmed yet.


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## krkaufman

randian said:


> I don't believe that inability to upgrade the drive has been confirmed yet.


Well, the upgrade ceiling has surely been lowered, given the change in form factor (and barring any physical modifications to the case).


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## slowbiscuit

Let's see, in sum we have a box that offers 4k streaming (and way down the road recording) which I will easily be able to get in a box with a much cheaper price elsewhere. Yep it's also faster but speed isn't really an issue now anyway.

In return, we get the following:
- obscenely priced 'lifetime' service that for some inexplicable reason has also been applied to older boxes
- throwaway resale value since lifetime is a non-starter
- monthly price that makes it no cheaper than renting, factoring in the box cost, card rental, cable DVR promos etc.
- 2 less tuners so it's more unattractive for whole-home use with Minis, not to mention more recording conflicts
- limited and more expensive upgradeability due to use of smaller drive
- hideous design only available in white, which doesn't go with anything else I have
- new software feature that is intentionally limited to the Bolt for no other reason than to try and force upgrades

Did I get this right? If so, I want some of what Tivo is smoking. Yes I know they're not targeting me with this box, but I surely hope that when my Roamio dies down the road it's either the drive or the power supply because there is absolutely zero incentive for me to upgrade.

Zero.


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## b_scott

slowbiscuit said:


> Did I get this right? If so, I want some of what Tivo is smoking. Yes I know they're not targeting me with this box, but I surely hope that when my Roamio dies down the road it's either the drive or the power supply because there is absolutely zero incentive for me to upgrade.
> 
> Zero.


Yep, correct. They're smoking the "moving to software seller to Cable companies" ganja. In the next 5 years I see them just being a software creator for provider DVR's, like they already are for RCN here in Chicago. They don't make money on the lifetime + hardware after they sell it, so once they blow through that money it's a bad deal for them.


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## atmuscarella

randian said:


> I don't believe that inability to upgrade the drive has been confirmed yet.





krkaufman said:


> Well, the upgrade ceiling has surely been lowered, given the change in form factor (and barring any physical modifications to the case).


Ya that's what I really was saying, I am fairly sure you will be able to upgrade the 2.5 inch drive but it will have to be with another 2.5 inch drive which limits upgrades right now. I went 2 years with the 500GB drive in my Roamio and then up graded it to 3TB just as this season started (about 2 wks ago), the upgrade was cheap and easy.


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## randian

We'll see if there's a 6-tuner 3.5" drive model coming later. I wonder who the morons were in the focus group who liked this bent form factor. A 3.5" would easily have fit in a more normal configuration, not to mention be cheaper to produce.


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## zerdian1

TiVo is showing very little interest in its current customers.
TiVo is offering a weak entry level TiVo Series 6 BOLT DVR with 4 tuners and 500GB to 1000GB drives with several great new features at what appears to be very low first year entry cost of $150 for BOLT HW and $150 for one year of service.
I called and asked if I buy the $400 1TB Series 6 BOLT DVR machine and buy their lifetime at $600, It would still cost me $1000.
I do not get any discount for the unused $150 for one year of service that is included and as a TiVo user since the beginning, I will no longer get a $399 Lifetime but now at $600 lifetime cost.
And since 3 of my original TiVo series 1 and series 2 DVRs are no longer in service even thought they also have lifetime service contracts they will not count to the new requirement of 5 DVRs.
When I talked to Tech Support they said all efforts were being directed to the Series 6 BOLT.

So I would guess that we should NOT expect any new capabilities to the added to the old Series 5 Roamio.
Maybe somethings that were already in the pipeline for the Roamio might still go forward.


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## dswallow

zerdian1 said:


> TiVo is showing very little interest in its current customers.
> if is offering a weak entry level machine with 4 tuners and 500GB to 1000GB drives. at what appears to be very low first year entry cost.
> I called and asked if I buy the $400 1TB series 6 BOLT DVR machine and buy their lifetime at $600.
> I do not get any discount for the unused $150 for one year of service that is included and as a TiVo user since the beginning, I will no longer get a $399 Lifetime but now at $600 lifetime cost.


Well, you just called it an entry level machine, so I'm not sure why you'd be surprised it's not targeted towards current customers so much.


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## Jed1

zerdian1 said:


> TiVo is showing very little interest in its current customers.
> TiVo is offering a weak entry level TiVo Series 6 BOLT DVR with 4 tuners and 500GB to 1000GB drives with several great new features at what appears to be very low first year entry cost of *$150 for BOLT HW and $150 for one year of service.*
> I called and asked if I buy the $400 1TB Series 6 BOLT DVR machine and buy their lifetime at $600, It would still cost me $1000.
> I do not get any discount for the unused $150 for one year of service that is included and as a TiVo user since the beginning, I will no longer get a $399 Lifetime but now at $600 lifetime cost.
> And since 3 of my original TiVo series 1 and series 2 DVRs are no longer in service even thought they also have lifetime service contracts they will not count to the new requirement of 5 DVRs.
> When I talked to Tech Support they said all efforts were being directed to the Series 6 BOLT.
> 
> So I would guess that we should NOT expect any new capabilities to the added to the old Series 5 Roamio.
> Maybe somethings that were already in the pipeline for the Roamio might still go forward.


The part that I highlighted is incorrect. It is $300 for the 500GB hardware, $400 for the 1000GB hardware, and one year of *FREE* service.
The change TiVo made to their pricing is they are no longer subsidizing the cost of the hardware in the price of the service. You now pay up front for the hardware and TiVo will throw in one year of free service which includes the continual care warranty.
Also there is no money in making cable only 6 tuner DVRs with large storage drives. I seriously doubt that there will be a 6 tuner cable only Bolt with 4k capabilities just for retail sales only. If there is a demand from the MSO's for one then TiVo will build it and then offer one for retail.
It is apparent that there is not much sales for these type of units. TiVo's retail customer base is quite small, around 200,000 households, and the number of those who has the cable only units is about half that number. Besides if you look at the MSO numbers for all the cable operators, they have all been losing subs for a number of years so this is indicating to TiVo that there will be declining demand for cable only DVRs going forward.
TiVo has to change direction in order to survive in the retail market so they decided to make the most flexible unit they can and do it at a reasonable price to attract new customers.

I will buy two 500GB Bolts if I can unload these two cable only lifetime Premiere 4s for a decent price. If my Premieres did not have lifetime I would just buy the Bolts and junk the Premieres.


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## LightningBOLT

wmcbrine said:


> But then people would complain, "Hey, I'm still alive! Why can't I transfer service from my old, broken TiVo to a new one?".


Precisely.


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## b_scott

Jed1 said:


> The part that I highlighted is incorrect. It is $300 for the 500GB hardware, $400 for the 1000GB hardware, and one year of *FREE* service.


It's not free if you can't buy it without it. It's included in the price.


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## Jed1

b_scott said:


> It's not free if you can't buy it without it. It's included in the price.


According to TiVo it is free.
https://www.tivo.com/assets/popups/popup_servicePlans.html


> Hey, TiVo BOLT Buyers...
> 
> the first year is on us.


If you are paying for it why would the advertise that the first year is on us?


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## b_scott

Jed1 said:


> According to TiVo it is free.
> https://www.tivo.com/assets/popups/popup_servicePlans.html


so? I'm talking about the definition. Not PR-speak.


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## trip1eX

The "all-in" is already catching on. Check out this Sam's Club ad on their website.

The email I received says this: *The best "All-IN" price on tires, Guaranteed.*

They must go to the same marketing seminars.


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