# Lost, Eggtown, 2/21 SPOILERS



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

*yawn*

Boring episode. Saw it all coming a mile away.

Aaron, nothing Earth-shattering between Miles and Ben, Sayid lost, Sawyer's "in" on Kate's plan, Kate getting off.

The only half-way interesting part was Jack's throw-away line about there being EIGHT survivors of the crash. I'm going to assume that the "world" doesn't consider Aaron one of the Six so that means we still have 2 more to be revealed. And two that the "world" thinks died on the island.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Yeah. Saw that coming mid-way. The scene with Kate and Claire and the laundry totally telegraphed it.

The way the final scene was written, you knew the last line would be her speaking his name, too.

Not a bad episode, but definately a "lull" episode when you think about just how action-packed and mysterious the show has been historically.


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## Bradc314 (Dec 4, 2001)

I'm without Tivo at the moment, and I can't got back to check, but I thought Kate's lawyer called him Aaron too when he mentioned he wanted to bring her son into the courtroom.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I was chuckling at all the pretty colors of Ben's face. He looks like he is due for some more bruising.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Yeah, not a big surprise.

But the age difference between island-Aaron and flash-forward-Aaron was no doubt not a mistake - so how long are we talking about here... two years at least? He looked to be about 2.5-3 years old. Any theories to explain that?


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

cwoody222 said:


> *yawn*
> 
> Boring episode. Saw it all coming a mile away.
> 
> ...


I thought Jack said the plane landed in the water, eight people survived, but two died, it would have been more if not for Kate.

3.2 MILLION DOLLARS!! Mua ha ha

Also, Kate must have said that she gave birth to Aaron on the island. BUT think about it for a minute. The farmer that she was with in Australia right before getting caught by the marshall saw her, and saw that she wasn't showing. After the plane crashed, presumably the officials would have pulled all video from the airport and talked to the gate agents, etc. Not one of them would remember Kate showing as pregnant. So unless they don't get off the island for another 5-6 months, that would sink Kate's story of Aaron being hers.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

scottykempf said:


> Also, Kate must have said that she gave birth to Aaron on the island. BUT think about it for a minute. The farmer that she was with in Australia right before getting caught by the marshall saw her, and saw that she wasn't showing. After the plane crashed, presumably the officials would have pulled all video from the airport and talked to the gate agents, etc. Not one of them would remember Kate showing as pregnant. So unless they don't get off the island for another 5-6 months, that would sink Kate's story of Aaron being hers.


Why must she have said she gave birth on the island?
Also, look at that boy's age - no way is he only 9 months old as your time frame would suggest (EDIT: misunderstood you there at first, I see now you mean that she became pregnant at the island?). At least 2 years must have passed IMO.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

more time has past off the island...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> more time has past off the island...


But when did the aging take place?


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Well we know why Kate didn't want her mom to meet her 'grandson.' 

I have to say I was surprised. I thought maybe she was just lying to Sawyer about not being pregnant.

And if Jack knew it was his nephew, you'd think he would want to see him. But don't understand why not. Unless he had done something to claire or let something happen to her.

And ideas on what faraday and charlotte were discussing with the cards? Does faraday know the island is going to heal whatever is wrong with him?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> And if Jack knew it was his nephew, you'd think he would want to see him. But don't understand why not. Unless he had done something to claire or let something happen to her.


Which is my guess.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Why must she have said she gave birth on the island?
> Also, look at that boy's age - no way is he only 9 months old as your time frame would suggest (EDIT: misunderstood you there at first, I see now you mean that she became pregnant at the island?). At least 2 years must have passed IMO.


Because Aaron wouldnt be on the flight manifest, nor would anyone remember someone taking Aaron on board.

P.S. Did anyone else catch the "concrete" wall shaking when Locke threw the food tray against it? LOL


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

So, everyone in the world knows they crashed and spent time on a deserted island. Kate is known worldwide, so much for the "snuck Kate off the island" theory. Kate is hyper protective of Aaron, and Jack can't stand to see him. And Miles is another kind of con man.

What was the judge's name? That wasn't a normal name at all.

And these writers got a real jones for Albuquerque. This is like the 5th time it's been mentioned. Though I must protest, we're not "too hot." This ain't Phoenix, it snowed this morning.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Could it be that Claire is killed/dies and gives Kate custody of the baby. OR, more likely, if only certain people can leave the island, maybe Claire can't leave but wants Aaron off and will give him up to Kate to get him off.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

MickeS said:


> But when did the aging take place?


Aaron wasn't exactly tiny at 100 days ...


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Cindy1230 said:


> And if Jack knew it was his nephew, you'd think he would want to see him. But don't understand why not. Unless he had done something to claire or let something happen to her.


But Jack doesn't know. And Claire doesn't know that Jack is a half brother.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

So, if Kate wasn't pregnant where was the motivation to get off the island? Was she told to take Aaron, maybe? There's no way Kate volunteered to go back and face the music.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Jack said that 8 survived the crash, 2 didn't make it and kate nursed them all so there were just 6 to get rescued.

But it all a lie. So all of the 'six' have to hold up to that lie. Under oath if necessary as Jack did.

Unless there have been some mind tricks going on.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Delta13 said:


> So, if Kate wasn't pregnant where was the motivation to get off the island? Was she told to take Aaron, maybe? There's no way Kate volunteered to go back and face the music.


Why not?

Maybe Claire "begged" her to go to take care of Aaron? Maybe for some reason Claire herself can't leave? (or is dead)


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

betts4 said:


> Jack said that 8 survived the crash, 2 didn't make it and kate nursed them all so there were just 6 to get rescued.
> 
> But it all a lie. So all of the 'six' have to hold up to that lie. Under oath if necessary as Jack did.
> 
> Unless there have been some mind tricks going on.


Just a lie that they're all sticking to. Hence Kate telling Jack that every time she hears him repeat the story she thinks he's maybe starting to believe it.

It's all a lie they're (the Six) are perpetrating to the world at large...


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

Well - I must be slow because I was completely surprised.

And I could swear the baby's name is Erin and not Aaron.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

betts4 said:


> But Jack doesn't know. And Claire doesn't know that Jack is a half brother.


Doesn't know _yet_, anyway.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

No tricks, I'd say. Kate said that Jack had told that story so often sje was starting to believe that he believed it to be true. That, and it was so obvious during the courtroom scene.

And Sun and Jin? One of them might get off, but not both. The "my baby" comment hurt.

And scratch Sawyer from the Oceanic 6. Unless he was driving the taxi.


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## ellinj (Feb 26, 2002)

Someone remind me again. What is the connection between Jack and Claire.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ellinj said:


> Someone remind me again. What is the connection between Jack and Claire.


Same father.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> Why not?
> 
> Maybe Claire "begged" her to go to take care of Aaron? Maybe for some reason Claire herself can't leave? (or is dead)


If Kate had stood up and been heroic like that, she'd have been much more confident in court and would have pushed the DA on the deal. Jack's testimony and her reaction proved it - she doesn't think she is a hero at all.

Either it was forced on her because she was the only (or only matching) female in the Oceanic 6, or circumstances somehow separated Aaron from Claire. I think sending Aaron away was either a tool to keep Claire in line on the island, or because Aaron developed skills being island-born. Either way, we probably won't know for quite a while.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

So not only do we need to find out who the last one of The Six is, but also who the two who died (or "died") are, and how they died or why the world thinks they died.


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

I'm with those who thought it was a bit of a lull episode. Then again, I don't really like Kate episodes - season 3 being the exceptions - all that much.

And, yeah, saw the Aaron thing coming. But Jack's mention of 8 survivors is a big deal to me. Curious to see how that plays out...

How far 'future' do you guys think this flashforward is? Was Kate's mom mentioning 'I've been given 6 months to live for the past 4 years' supposed to be clue? Or, since she was very sick in her first appearance (season 1), is that not much to go on?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Rob, do you think they cheat a little and call Aaron was of the 6? Was that really the big reveal, since we (mostly) already knew about Kate? I guess how long they spent on this so-called "deserted island" would matter, and we don't know that.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Delta13 said:


> Rob, do you think they cheat a little and call Aaron was of the 6? Was that really the big reveal, since we (mostly) already knew about Kate?


I think they're cheating if it's NOT Aaron. We definitely already knew about Kate.

I suppose that would probably make Claire one of the Oceanic +2...

One thing I'm not clear on: Did this episode take place before or after Jack went to seed (i.e., the Season 3 finale flashforwards)?


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> One thing I'm not clear on: Did this episode take place before or after Jack went to seed (i.e., the Season 3 finale flashforwards)?


I'd say this flashforward was before.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

I'd say the episode was before Jack went to seed. That was present time (2007 or so, anyway). But enough time had passed that she had a house and nanny and the same Audi car in the driveway.

Agreed on Claire. I think Aaron would be one of the O6, and the only one without issues most likely. 

Now we also know why Jack had to semi-explain the Golden Pass to Kate in the S3 finale - she can't leave the state!


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## TiMo Tim (Jul 20, 2001)

scottykempf said:


> P.S. Did anyone else catch the "concrete" wall shaking when Locke threw the food tray against it? LOL




I had my wife back it up so I could see it again.


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## bqmeister (May 13, 2006)

Only thing I'm slightly worried about...

This episode almost felt like an episode of "the nine" and that show didn't turn out to good.

I have more faith in the writers of Lost though.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So not only do we need to find out who the last one of The Six is, but also who the two who died (or "died") are, and how they died or why the world thinks they died.


Well, all of the Oceanic 6 will be revealed by...



Spoiler



..episode 7, according to the interview with Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof in the latest EW. Read the article here.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I don't know why, but production errors really just stick out like a sore thumb to me. I swear, I'm not a nitpicker... I just found this humorous.

When Locke slams the plate of eggs against the cement wall, the wall shakes. They had me convinced; before this I would have sworn the cement walls were real and they were just using some pre-existing structure.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm still thinking about Miles saying to Kate, "who knows? maybe you didn't survive the crash...?"

because at that point, the world does think there are no survivors, and jack's testimony shows that they are going along with the cover up, because he said they landed in the water and wouldn't have made it to shore without kate. 

And i think kate's mom telling us the 4 years is a good clue, because she went to see her in the hospital when she thought her mom was going to die,... but she may have been diagnosed before that... so who knows


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

Can someone explain to me why this episode was titled Eggtown?

_Edit:

Nevermind, I found the answer at Lostpedia. Of course, no sources are cited so YMMV._


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## jonblaze (Jan 10, 2004)

TheMerk said:


> Can someone explain to me why this episode was titled Eggtown?


Because Locke was cooking eggs for Ben to begin the episode?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> I'd say the episode was before Jack went to seed. That was present time (2007 or so, anyway). But enough time had passed that she had a house and nanny and the same Audi car in the driveway.
> 
> Agreed on Claire. I think Aaron would be one of the O6, and the only one without issues most likely.
> 
> Now we also know why Jack had to semi-explain the Golden Pass to Kate in the S3 finale - she can't leave the state!


And why Kate was so insistent on _not _trying to go back to the island when Jack was pleading that they need to.

I have a limited perspective nitpick: It drove me crazy as a lawyer that Kate was being charged in California state court for federal crimes and a murder committed in Iowa. And then the state court judge said he was remanding her to _federal _custody, but it was still a state trial.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

This is random but interesting.... but I couldn't remember where I knew the actor that played the lawyer. So imbd'ed and remembered him from Frequency, which the actress that plays Juilet was also in. Then I read Lostpedia and it says, "Shawn Doyle previously worked with Elizabeth Mitchell in the film "Frequency". The film involved time travel where Doyle's character, named _Jack Shepard_, is prevented from killing Mitchell's character."


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> Aaron wasn't exactly tiny at 100 days ...


Or one day. Given that he looked about 9 months old at birth, there's no telling how old he's supposed to be now.

But I agree with Mike S that Aaron _looks _about 2 1/2.

I didn't figure out it was going to be him until about 2 seconds before she said his name. As she stepped into his room, my first thought was "blond hair, Sawyer's kid." Then it dawned on me that they had never said a name, and I thought of Aaron.

By the way, very nice house Kate has. It looks straight out of my sister-in-law's neighborhood in Ventura County. She obviously got a nice Oceanic Air settlement too.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Cindy1230 said:


> And ideas on what faraday and charlotte were discussing with the cards? Does faraday know the island is going to heal whatever is wrong with him?


It appeared that Faraday has memory issues. It's why he couldn't remember why he was crying in the season premiere, and it's why he couldn't remember the cards he'd just looked at. Don't know what that means, but that's what I think.


mqpickles said:


> I have a limited perspective nitpick: It drove me crazy as a lawyer that Kate was being charged in California state court for federal crimes and a murder committed in Iowa. And then the state court judge said he was remanding her to _federal _custody, but it was still a state trial.


That bugged me too. As soon as I saw the CA flag, I was wondering why she'd be standing trial for those crimes in California.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

I like the "twist" about the helicopter...


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## bpurcell (Mar 16, 2005)

Delta13 said:


> Rob, do you think they cheat a little and call Aaron was of the 6? Was that really the big reveal, since we (mostly) already knew about Kate?


In my mind, Aaron is one of the six. I think that's how the press would interpret it. Calling them the Oceanic six is just a slick shortcut; it's not something to be read literally. In the public eye, the baby was rescued with everyone else and should be included in the number.

Here's my "way out there" prediction. There are two seasons left, and these flash forwards are already telling us who was saved. I have a feeling that these six characters will be saved by the end of this season (maybe not 8 episode season, but added post-strike season). This will cause a MAJOR shift in the main characters of Lost for the remainder of the seasons. The Oceanic six are no longer a part of Lost after this season.

Just something that popped into my head.

Oh, and does anyone know what that bearded guy yelled while Kate was going into the courthouse? It sounded something like "Where are they?"


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Uh...if you really pay attention to the preview for next week-there's something VERY strange going on...


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> And if Jack knew it was his nephew, you'd think he would want to see him. But don't understand why not. Unless he had done something to claire or let something happen to her.





betts4 said:


> But Jack doesn't know. And Claire doesn't know that Jack is a half brother.


And if Jack found out Claire was his sister after the fact, it's an even bigger twist of the knife.



Delta13 said:


> I'd say the episode was before Jack went to seed. That was present time (2007 or so, anyway). But enough time had passed that she had a house and nanny and the same Audi car in the driveway.





mqpickles said:


> By the way, very nice house Kate has. It looks straight out of my sister-in-law's neighborhood in Ventura County. She obviously got a nice Oceanic Air settlement too.


That shot of the house bugged me so I backed upped and freezed on it.

Yep, they matted in the Hollywood sign. And at an angle that would put the house squat in the middle of the Hollywood Freeway.

Oh yeah, the chopper is hitting some time turbulence.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

spikedavis said:


> Uh...if you really pay attention to the preview for next week-there's something VERY strange going on...


Details?

The only thing that really stood out to me was...


Spoiler



The final shot appears to be a clean-shaven, short-haired Desmond attacking a long-haired dishevelled looking Faraday, asking if he's going to die. This might be from the flash forward.

It also looks like the helicopter will land somewhere safely, probably the boat.

Was there something else I missed?



Also, when frame-by-framing through the preview, I noticed that the credits for this week's episode include one for "William Blanchette as Two Year Old Boy". I assume that would be Aaron, since I don't remember any other children in the episode. I guess that give us a timeline for the flash forward.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

Cainebj said:


> Well - I must be slow because I was completely surprised.


Same here...had no idea...

...even worse, I had to rewind at the end because when she said the name and the dramatic music came on, I didn't get it.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Island Kate is hotter than Courtroom Kate.

Z


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Wife pointed out that when Kate said "he'll know I've been gone" (or something like that) in last season's finale, she must have been referring to Aaron.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

zordude said:


> Island Kate is hotter than Courtroom Kate.
> 
> Z


i concur, this is the best observation in the thread so far


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

zordude said:


> Island Kate is hotter than Courtroom Kate.
> 
> Z


This is absolutely true.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

atrac said:


> Same here...had no idea...
> 
> ...even worse, I had to rewind at the end because when she said the name and the dramatic music came on, I didn't get it.


My friend just IM'd me and said, "Hello Eric? What's that supposed to mean?"

I told him it was Aaron, not Eric. He still didn't get it. I then explained it was Claire's kid, Turniphead, and then he got it.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

getbak said:


> Details?
> 
> The only thing that really stood out to me was...
> 
> ...


That's the one. However....


Spoiler



I don't think it's a flash forward.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

zordude said:


> Island Kate is hotter than Courtroom Kate.
> 
> Z


Courtroom Kate was a little too hard and slick--too Robert Palmer girl. I dug it anyway.

Post-Courtroom Kate, however, was just fine...


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Ben's house has one huge basement ...


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Enjoyable, if relatively uneventful episode. 

So is the guy that Kate has to get back to at the end of the season 3 cliffhanger Aaron? Meaning he might wake up and wonder where mommy is...

I would also say, about that finale, it obviously takes place after all the previous flash forwards but I'd say it is a good +5 years or more after getting off the island. Something happens that makes up crack-up... we just haven't seen it yet. A good defense attorney wouldn't put a budding alcoholic up on the stand as a character witness for an accused murderer... would they?

I solemnly swear those boat guys are up to no good.

I was smeeking all over the place here wasn't I...


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

spikedavis said:


> Uh...if you really pay attention to the preview for next week-there's something VERY strange going on...


I'm sorry, but I have to say it...

DUH!!!

"You totally scooby-doo'd me there, didn't you?"


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

TonyTheTiger said:


> "You totally scooby-doo'd me there, didn't you?"


That really was a great line from Hurley...


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> I have a limited perspective nitpick: It drove me crazy as a lawyer that Kate was being charged in California state court for federal crimes and a murder committed in Iowa. And then the state court judge said he was remanding her to _federal _custody, but it was still a state trial.


Well, those of us who are NOT lawyers have no idea how you could tell it was a state trial rather than a federal trial, so it's all OK


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Why is everyone assuming that Kate is lying to the world about being Aaron's birth mother? When Jack first described the "8 survivors, 2 didn't make it", my first thought was "that's the cover story for the world to explain why they came out with Aaron and Sun's (to date unborn) child".

So maybe the world thinks Claire (and Sun?) "survived the crash", gave birth on the island and died before rescue, and Kate, being the "heroine" she is, she took care of the baby and treats him like her own son? Plenty of people adopt babies and call them "my son".


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> My friend just IM'd me and said, "Hello Eric? What's that supposed to mean?"
> 
> I told him it was Aaron, not Eric. He still didn't get it. I then explained it was Claire's kid, Turniphead, and then he got it.


I chatted with someone who said EXACTLY the same thing! I thought he was joking at first.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

bpurcell said:


> In my mind, Aaron is one of the six. I think that's how the press would interpret it. Calling them the Oceanic six is just a slick shortcut; it's not something to be read literally. In the public eye, the baby was rescued with everyone else and should be included in the number.


There are plenty of spoliers out there as to who the Oceanic Six are, if you really want to know.
And not everyone who makes it off the island is part of that group.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

madscientist said:


> Well, those of us who are NOT lawyers have no idea how you could tell it was a state trial rather than a federal trial, so it's all OK


Kinda of like us non-golfer couldn't tell a 5 iron from a 7 iron and why it would make a difference.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Cearbhaill said:


> There are plenty of spoliers out there as to who the Oceanic Six are, if you really want to know.
> And not everyone who makes it off the island is part of that group.


Well Ben and Desmond clearly aren't, because they weren't on the plane.

(Note, I don't have any spoilers about Desmond making it off, but I am assuming that if Sayid did, then Desmond did.)

Aaron may not be one of "the six" because technically he wasn't on the plane, only in uteruo.


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## larry1111 (Sep 29, 2005)

That one doesn't really fit in here but here's some thoughts that came to my mind when randomly watching certain scences from this season:

1. Obviously nobody can find this island without being in possession of the coordinates (for whatever reason we don't know).

2. Obviously the island has finally been found as we could see in the flash-forwards of episode 2.

3. The pilot who was supposed to fly 815 the day it crashed thinks that the plane crash has been staged.

4. Following the pilot's assumption that it was staged near a DIFFERENT island from the one 815 actually crashed (which, following the logic of point 1, would be the only way for a real rescue crew to find the plane) this would mean that the O6 (maybe + 2 who were "killed" during the plane crash) have actually been transferred from the real crash scene at the "hidden island" to an island where they were rescued later.

5. It can be assumed that Dharma / The Hanso Foundation is involved in this transfer, whereas the deal is that only 6 will be transferred and that these 6 are obliged to tell the public a certain story after they are finally rescued from the DIFFERENT island (Dharma / Hanso might tip off officials back home after the transfer has taken place and the crash scene has been staged). In this week's episode Jack is testifying that Kate rescued several people after the plane crashed offshore. This story (lie) fits the crash scene at the DIFFERENT island (last week we saw pictures of 815, which (was staged to have) crashed in the sea.

6. Dharma / Hanso will only keep the people (mostly survivors of 815) on the REAL island alive, if the O6 stick to their story. It appears that Dharma / Hanso needs the remaining people on the island for something.

7. The people Ben is fighting using Syed know about the scam and the involve ment of the O6. This is why the guy at the golf course is so shocked and tries to get away after learning that Syed is one of the O6. The reason why he does not recognize Syed might be that he does not watch TV (as this group of people seems to be against modern technology).

Now (before everyone's is getting too bored)...

8. Could it be that the flash-forwards in Episode 2 of this season (starring the 4 guys who came with Naomi) are actually taking place AFTER they went to the island (and maybe transferred them to the DIFFERENT island). That would explain why Faraday is crying when seeing the pics of the "staged" crash scene on TV. He knows he's done something bad but he can't remember because of his memory issues...


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## cmaasfamily (Jan 26, 2006)

Seems they went out of the way to show Kate (and to an extent, the Oceanic 6) as fabulously famous, popperatzi-chased, Michael Jackson show trial type celebs. Plane crash survivors get "tonight, a very special Dateline" appearances, not fan clubs. Bad writing, or does something happen to kick them up to the 'A' list?

Also, how to reconcile the news reports showing the plane in tact at the bottom of a deep ocean trench with Jack's line about crashing landing on (or did he say near?) a deserted island. We (the viewers) know that one or both are lies but the public in "flash-forward world", wouldn't see those stories as compatible, would they?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Why was the trial in California? Because all celebrity trials are held there, silly! No paparazzi live in Iowa, duh! Who'd take all the pictures?


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

larry1111 said:


> That one doesn't really fit in here but here's some thoughts that came to my mind when randomly watching certain scences from this season:
> 
> 1. Obviously nobody can find this island without being in possession of the coordinates (for whatever reason we don't know).
> 
> ...


hmmmmm I kind of like you're #8, but there's a problem with that theory. It would make sense for Faraday's to be flash forward. But the pilot wouldn't be calling up the NTSB to tell them they're wrong, and Naomi was getting ready for a mission with them, so those two can't be flash forwards. The anthropologist though, could go either way.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Add me to the clueless list - I was totally shocked by the Aaron reveal at the end. Although I was first shocked mere moments earlier, with the Jake/Kate exchange in the parking garage, thinking it was surely Jack's kid she was going home to, which meant that Kate and Jack were going to sleep together before they got off the island. I think I like that better than it being Aaron, but what can you do? 

And I have to say that Lost in HD is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than Lost in non-HD. We switched to the regular feed halfway through because HD always has gloops and burbles (i.e. pixellation issues) that knocks out picture and sound and I was getting tired of missing bits... but we had to go back to HD - just wasn't worth the sacrifice! 

P.S. I should have posted last night, when a million things were running through my head about the episode... this morning, I lost everything.


----------



## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

For the lawyers, is it out of place for a defense witness to be called before a prosecution witness? 

The defense called Jack to the stand, and then *after* that, Kate's mom came to her and said she wouldn't testify. Wouldn't she have already testified by that point?

IANAL but I thought that was how it worked.


----------



## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

Does anybody here have kids? Aaron said "Hi Mommy" clear as a bell. Children don't talk until 1 and 1/2 if you are lucky, and they don't speak very clearly until about 3. You might be able to understand them pretty well from 2 to 2 and 1/2 years old, but boys are generally slow to develop speaking skills. 

My guess, that Aaron (or at least the actor) was 3 and 1/2.


----------



## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

My son can say hi mommy at 2yo.

What if Jack is upset with the kid because he figured out that his Father is also the father of Claire's baby. Do we know from Season 1 who the father is? Jack could be really disgusted by the whole thing.


----------



## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

Magister said:


> My son can say hi mommy at 2yo.


So can my daughter. But she still sounds like a baby, to an extent. There was just something about his voice, the tonality and crispness, that sounded like a more mature child.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Magister said:


> My son can say hi mommy at 2yo.
> 
> What if Jack is upset with the kid because he figured out that his Father is also the father of Claire's baby. Do we know from Season 1 who the father is? Jack could be really disgusted by the whole thing.


Oh _eeeewwww!!!_ Both Claire AND Jack's dad know that Claire is his daughter, and you're proposing they slept together anyway?!?!

That _would_ be gross.

We have a pretty good idea from S1 who the baby's father is; there were Claire flashbacks where she was living with a guy who eventually freaked and left. I don't remember anything to indicate that wasn't the father.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Magister said:


> What if Jack is upset with the kid because he figured out that his Father is also the father of Claire's baby.


That would be a severe case of misdirected anger. The kid can't help who daddy is.

Are you suggesting that Jack and Claire's biological father slept with Claire and that's what drives Jack over the edge?

I'm thinking at the point we can only guess as to why Jack falls to pieces. We just don't have enough information yet. The worst part is it will probably be next January before we get those answers.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

RBlount said:


> Kinda of like us non-golfer couldn't tell a 5 iron from a 7 iron and why it would make a difference.


Yeah... since I'm not a golfer OR a lawyer, I'm still loving this show! :up::up::up: 

Now, it's just lucky for me the show is set on a deserted island so it's unlikely I'll have sleepless nights worrying about too many stoopid hi-tech faux pas.


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

The ending was: 



scottykempf said:


> P.S. Did anyone else catch the "concrete" wall shaking when Locke threw the food tray against it? LOL


I rewound that a half dozen times... Hilarious!!



bqmeister said:


> This episode almost felt like an episode of "the nine" and that show didn't turn out to good.


That's my main complaint with this episode. The writers chose a very, very poor way to show us (part of?) the "story of the story" in regards to the Oceanic Six or whatever they are. The survivors are making things up and being dishonest about what happened on the island. We get it. Now it would be nice to the viewers if we could see this stuff in faux documentary form or something like that. You know that every news channel in the Lost universe has done at least an hour on the stories of the survivors. It wouldn't hurt the writers to be upfront about something for once in the history of the show.



Cindy1230 said:


> This is random but interesting.... but I couldn't remember where I knew the actor that played the lawyer.


Thanks, I also recognized the actor but couldn't place him for the life of me.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Magister said:


> My son can say hi mommy at 2yo.
> 
> What if Jack is upset with the kid because he figured out that his Father is also the father of Claire's baby. Do we know from Season 1 who the father is? Jack could be really disgusted by the whole thing.


Wait, jacks's father is also the father of claires baby? 
But, jacks father and claires father are the same man. Christian Sheperd. and he knows that claire is his daughter. He wouldn't sleep with his daughter. So no, jacks dad is not also the father of aaron.

We saw aarons father in season one - he is an artist that decides he doesn't want to be a father. We don't see him for very long, but we know he is not a sheperd.

edit - sirius beat me to this.


----------



## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

I liked the fact that Locke selected "VALIS" as the book to give to Ben. I'm sure there's some hidden meaning there. 

Wow, the Wikipedia entry for VALIS has already been updated to include this reference.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I am smeeking a bit, but has no one mentioned Xanadu as the movie Hurley picked? I can't remember the name of the other choice. Xanadu is a pretty interesting choice for the writers. Not the movie but the reference to the poem. 

This is the poem by Samuel Taylor Coleridge I was recalling from the movie Xanadu. Now that I glance at it, there may be some intersting parallels with it, the reference to Xanadu, and the island. Interesting.

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.

So twice five miles of fertile ground
With walls and towers were girdled round:
And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,
Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree;
And here were forests ancient as the hills,
Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

But oh! that deep romantic chasm which slanted
Down the green hill athwart a cedarn cover!
A savage place! as holy and enchanted
As e'er beneath a waning moon was haunted
By woman wailing for her demon-lover!
And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,
As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,
A mighty fountain momently was forced:
Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst
Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,
Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher's flail:
And 'mid these dancing rocks at once and ever
It flung up momently the sacred river.
Five miles meandering with a mazy motion
Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,
Then reached the caverns measureless to man,
And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean:
And 'mid this tumult Kubla heard from far
Ancestral voices prophesying war!

The shadow of the dome of pleasure
Floated midway on the waves;
Where was heard the mingled measure
From the fountain and the caves.
It was a miracle of rare device,
A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice!

A damsel with a dulcimer
In a vision once I saw:
It was an Abyssinian maid,
And on her dulcimer she played,
Singing of Mount Abora.
Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me
That with music loud and long
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome! those caves of ice!
And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware! Beware!
His flashing eyes, his floating hair!
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed
And drunk the milk of Paradise.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

can we post the Rush lyrics to Xanadu, maybe there is something there we can gather 

another episode that continues the bad storyline/telling. gonna be interesting to see how they rescue this show, which is clearly "lost" (oh, that's bad, sorry!!!)


----------



## Steve_Martin (Jul 18, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> My friend just IM'd me and said, "Hello Eric? What's that supposed to mean?"
> 
> I told him it was Aaron, not Eric. He still didn't get it. I then explained it was Claire's kid, Turniphead, and then he got it.


I heard it last night as Eric also.



TonyTheTiger said:


> I'm sorry, but I have to say it...
> 
> DUH!!!
> 
> "You totally scooby-doo'd me there, didn't you?"


That one cracked me up too, I had to replay it.


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

I don't get why so many people thought this episode was so blah. I for one liked the flash forward at least- everyone had the question about what would happen to Kate with her being wanted and everything. So we found out. At the same time, the writers added some more info, like we know that there's a set story about the crash and who survived (the 8 - 2), so the OC6 are all sticking to that story. 

yea, it was slower than last week's but i think plot wise, it served to move the story along.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Courtroom Kate was a little too hard and slick--too Robert Palmer girl. I dug it anyway.
> 
> Post-Courtroom Kate, however, was just fine...


+1


----------



## DougF (Mar 18, 2003)

Kate just looks good all the time. 

As for the baby, I didn't figure it out, either. When she was meeting with Jack in the parking garage, I thought it might have been his. I couldn't see him not wanting to meet his own child, though. As soon as we saw the blond hair, my wife and I both said "It's Sawyer's". When she said "Aaron", it took me about 30 seconds befor the "DUH" alarm went off.


----------



## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Courtroom Kate was a little too "pantsuit" for me. Island Kate is zoomin' the jeans.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

madscientist said:


> Well, those of us who are NOT lawyers have no idea how you could tell it was a state trial rather than a federal trial, so it's all OK


Well, even for non-lawyers, it's not that hard to figure out. This was a "The People vs Kate" thing instead of the "Government vs Kate" thing. But apparently I wasn't paying THAT much attention since I didn't even notice that the judge said federal custody.

I think Aaron is about 3 year's old in this episode. It's obviously been a while since they got off the island (enough time, presumedly to get a settlement from it and a big house in CA) And I think Jack's flash forward from last season comes AFTER all this.

I also think Aaron is one of the Oceanic 6. We already knew about Kate so the only other dramatic reveal this episode was Aaron.

I think somehow Jack finds out about Claire being his sister and he's slowly being overcome by guilt over something that happened.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DougF said:


> Kate just looks good all the time.


Yeah, but seeing her with obvious make-up just seems...UNNATURAL.

Well, OK, by definition, but more so in her case!


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Not that the audience is attached to Charlotte or anything, but I don't think she's going to make it. She knows Ben is alive and that Aaron is Claire's baby.


----------



## Bradc314 (Dec 4, 2001)

I think the secret lies with Charlotte.


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Which secret? There are so many!

We're ALL being scooby-doo'd!!


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Can someone remind me of Charlotte's backstory?


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

cwoody222 said:


> Can someone remind me of Charlotte's backstory?


There wasn't much to it, IIRC. She was shown in the desert in Tunisia, finding a buried Dharma polar bear skeleton at some sort of archaeological dig looking site. I think that was about it?


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

So.... could Aaron be the one in the casket? For a moment I thought that, since Jack didn't want to see either. But I can't figure out a reason no one would be at the funeral of Aaron... so scratch that idea.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Bradc314 said:


> I think the secret lies with Charlotte.


"That clue will lead to another clue and then to another clue."

I probably butchered the quote, but hey what the heck.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jenhudson said:


> So.... could Aaron be the one in the casket? For a moment I thought that, since Jack didn't want to see either. But I can't figure out a reason no one would be at the funeral of Aaron... so scratch that idea.


But why (especially given this episode) wouldn't Kate be there and why would she get upset and ask Jack why she would go to his funeral.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Aaron is older because of the time warp factor (the one that caused the projectile to land late and walt to be taller). Incidentally, does walt being "bigger" negate the possibility of him being in the coffin? Or is it possible that we won't actually ever see a grown up walt and the writers are just toying with those of us who wondered how they are going to explain him growing up?

Faraday was probably related in some way (colleague?) to the guy who wrote the bad twin book and the valenzetti stuff, and that is why he cried but couldn't figure out why. Could be he's a key player in the Dharma Initiative but doesn't know it.

Who is the "he" of whom ben is so afraid? Any guesses? I feel like it must be someone related to hanso, but that's because I can't figure out why someone would be so angry with him otherwise. Do we know that his father definitely died?

Edit: oh yeah, and this episode was the first somewhat boring one of the season.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

zordude said:


> Island Kate is hotter than Courtroom Kate.
> 
> Z


I have to say Island Jack is hotter than Courtroom Jack.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> It appeared that Faraday has memory issues. It's why he couldn't remember why he was crying in the season premiere, and it's why he couldn't remember the cards he'd just looked at. Don't know what that means, but that's what I think.


I don't know why, but I took these less as "I just showed you these cards, do you remember what they are?" and more of a Desmond-esque "last time we were in this time loop what were the cards, do you remember?" Also explains the crying - he lived through this before and something bad happens. Or something.



larry1111 said:


> 8. Could it be that the flash-forwards in Episode 2 of this season (starring the 4 guys who came with Naomi) are actually taking place AFTER they went to the island (and maybe transferred them to the DIFFERENT island). That would explain why Faraday is crying when seeing the pics of the "staged" crash scene on TV. He knows he's done something bad but he can't remember because of his memory issues...


No. Those were flash-backs, not flash-forwards.


----------



## ThePennyDropped (Jul 5, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> My friend just IM'd me and said, "Hello Eric? What's that supposed to mean?"
> 
> I told him it was Aaron, not Eric. He still didn't get it. I then explained it was Claire's kid, Turniphead, and then he got it.


I heard it as "Eric", too. It was obviously supposed to be a significant revelation, so I was wracking my brain trying to figure out what the name "Eric" signified, how it was tied to some Lost character we'd met in the past few years.

Oh, well. At least I didn't think she'd named the kid "Goth". Or "Gaunt". 

--Debbie


----------



## krugs84 (Nov 16, 2004)

Kate's lawyer was on Big Love, he played Joey, Bill's brother.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MitchO said:


> So maybe the world thinks Claire (and Sun?) "survived the crash", gave birth on the island and died before rescue, and Kate, being the "heroine" she is, she took care of the baby and treats him like her own son? Plenty of people adopt babies and call them "my son".


If it was widely known to everyone that Aaron was not Kate's biological son, Kate's mom and Jack would not have the same reactions they had.


cmaasfamily said:


> Seems they went out of the way to show Kate (and to an extent, the Oceanic 6) as fabulously famous, popperatzi-chased, Michael Jackson show trial type celebs. Plane crash survivors get "tonight, a very special Dateline" appearances, not fan clubs. Bad writing, or does something happen to kick them up to the 'A' list?


I think that in the universe of LOST, these people are A-list because of the circumstances of their survival, and especially Kate, because of her fugitive status.


crowfan said:


> For the lawyers, is it out of place for a defense witness to be called before a prosecution witness?
> 
> The defense called Jack to the stand, and then *after* that, Kate's mom came to her and said she wouldn't testify. Wouldn't she have already testified by that point?
> 
> IANAL but I thought that was how it worked.


Yes, that was out of place. Just a plot device.


TAsunder said:


> Who is the "he" of whom ben is so afraid? Any guesses? I feel like it must be someone related to hanso, but that's because I can't figure out why someone would be so angry with him otherwise. Do we know that his father definitely died?


Considering that Hurley and Sawyer found his father's skeleton (Roger: Work Man) in the VW Bus, I think it's pretty safe to assume that Ben's father is dead.


----------



## Steve_Martin (Jul 18, 2004)

Hmm, who got the immunity idol?


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

larry1111 said:


> That one doesn't really fit in here but here's some thoughts that came to my mind when randomly watching certain scences from this season:
> 
> 1. Obviously nobody can find this island without being in possession of the coordinates (for whatever reason we don't know).


Doesn't Whistler have those coordinates?


----------



## tms317 (May 2, 2003)

My thought on the Oceanic 6 +2. It seems fairly obvious that the survivors are all sticking to this made-up story for some reason and the only reason to have a "+2" would be to explain the existence of the 6--otherwise why even mention that more people survived the crash only to die on the island.

Under that assumption, I'd said that Claire is one of the +2 since they needed to explain the birth of Aaron and, therefore, Claire had to survive at least long enough to deliver him for the made-up story to hold any water. I'd think they could very easily be considering Aaron to be an Oceanic 6 even though he wasn't on the flight manifest since he is clearly still a survivor of the crash.

The other +2 would need to be someone linked to an Oceanic 6--otherwise why say they survived at all. That being said, my guess is that pregnant Sun is the 6th survivor and Jin is the other +2 (they need him alive for a little while in order to explain Sun's pregnancy since she wasn't pregnant when the plane crashed [per juliette's sonogram] and got pregnant on the island).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Doesn't Whistler have those coordinates?


Yes, they're in his bird book.


----------



## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

Kate's lawyer is Bill Paxton's brother from Big Love. (Whoops, smeek.)

Also, no one has mentioned that they revealed the location of the island...the South Pacific.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

7thton said:


> Kate's lawyer is Bill Paxton's brother from Big Love. (Whoops, smeek.)
> 
> Also, no one has mentioned that they revealed the location of the island...the South Pacific.


Was that not already revealed?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

7thton said:


> Also, no one has mentioned that they revealed the location of the island...the South Pacific.


Well, we already knew that--not that it narrows it down much; the South Pacific covers, what, 25% of the globe?


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Actually no. The location of the CRASH has been identified as the South Pacific - from the news reports when they found the shell of the plane under the water. The real location of the island has not been revealed (unless I missed something).


----------



## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

7thton said:


> Also, no one has mentioned that they revealed the location of the island...the South Pacific.


To be specific, they revealed the location of the island referenced_ in the Oceanic 6's lie_.


----------



## johnb41 (Jan 20, 2004)

Aaron, i think is probably max 2 yrs old. I don't know any kid who's still in a crib older than 2. My 2 daughters graduated to a regular bed at 1.5.

And at 2 i think Aaron is old enough to form simple phrases like "Hi Mommy"...

John


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

DougF said:


> Kate just looks good all the time.
> 
> As for the baby, I didn't figure it out, either. When she was meeting with Jack in the parking garage, I thought it might have been his. I couldn't see him not wanting to meet his own child, though. As soon as we saw the blond hair, my wife and I both said "It's Sawyer's". When she said "Aaron", it took me about 30 seconds befor the "DUH" alarm went off.


I went through the same stages - Jack's baby? Blond hair, must be Sawyer's. Aaron!


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

johnb41 said:


> Aaron, i think is probably max 2 yrs old. I don't know any kid who's still in a crib older than 2. My 2 daughters graduated to a regular bed at 1.5.
> 
> And at 2 i think Aaron is old enough to form simple phrases like "Hi Mommy"...
> 
> John


Mummy, right? He was meant to say it with the Australian accent.


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> But why (especially given this episode) wouldn't Kate be there and why would she get upset and ask Jack why she would go to his funeral.


Which is why I finished with "so scratch that idea."


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Does Claire hold the rights to naming a kid Aaron?
Why wouldn't Kate name her OWN kid the same, for whatever reason, even in memory of Claire's baby.

Probably the writers wouldn't want to f with people this badly, but on the other hand, why wouldn't they?


----------



## skywalkr2 (Jun 16, 2003)

krugs84 said:


> Kate's lawyer was on Big Love, he played Joey, Bill's brother.


Ding Ding Ding! That's exactly where I remembered him from.


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Does Claire hold the rights to naming a kid Aaron?
> Why wouldn't Kate name her OWN kid the same, for whatever reason, even in memory of Claire's baby.
> 
> Probably the writers wouldn't want to f with people this badly, but on the other hand, why wouldn't they?


cuz then we'd be having another "well, did Sun really have sex with that guy, or were they just laying there naked next to each but didn't have sex?" argument, and well, that's just pointless...


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

johnb41 said:


> Aaron, i think is probably max 2 yrs old. I don't know any kid who's still in a crib older than 2. My 2 daughters graduated to a regular bed at 1.5.
> 
> And at 2 i think Aaron is old enough to form simple phrases like "Hi Mommy"...
> 
> John


He wasn't in a crib, just a bed with a side to protect him from rolling out:

Plus, some kids stay in longer because the parent is lazy (ehum...)... 

I'd say he is about 2.5-3:


Either way, he is a lot older than when we last saw him on the island.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Actually no. The location of the CRASH has been identified as the South Pacific - from the news reports when they found the shell of the plane under the water. The real location of the island has not been revealed (unless I missed something).


But at the end of last season when Jack is talking about wanting to get back to the island, does he not mention that he's been flying all over the south pacific hoping to get back there? Or something along those lines.


----------



## tms317 (May 2, 2003)

I think the reason why Jack can't bring himself to visit Aaron is not that he knows its his nephew. More likely he doesn't want to see the baby due to some guilt that he is feeling about what happened when the left the island and what happened to claire (whether she died, or they left her there or some other option...)

I know this has been touched on already in this thread, but it just doesn't make sense to think it has anything to do with the relationship between Claire and Jack (that neither of them knows about)


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

tms317 said:


> I know this has been touched on already in this thread, but it just doesn't make sense to think it has anything to do with the relationship between Claire and Jack (that neither of them knows about)


I agree, however IF Claire somehow gets off the island or sees any media, it's not unlikely that Jack would be shown in pictures with his father, who was the reason he took the trip in the first place, and then she'd find out.
I don't think it's likely, but that's how I'd do it if I needed a way to write it so she finds out. 
Or Jack could just happen to have a picture of him together with his father that she happened to see.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

milo99 said:


> cuz then we'd be having another "well, did Sun really have sex with that guy, or were they just laying there naked next to each but didn't have sex?" argument, and well, that's just pointless...


Actually, with this episode it's "did Kate and Sawyer have sex or not?"


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

crowfan said:


> IANAL but I thought that was how it worked.


Talk about unfortunate acronyms. And since it's lawyer related maybe a bit appropiate?


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

tms317 said:


> I know this has been touched on already in this thread, but it just doesn't make sense to think it has anything to do with the relationship between Claire and Jack (that neither of them knows about)


Just because neither of them knew it on the island doesn't mean that Jack didn't later find out somehow. What if Jack's mom knew about Claire and then when Jack comes back home his mom decides to tell Jack about it.


----------



## tivolovr (Feb 8, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Actually, with this episode it's "did Kate and Sawyer have sex or not?"


No, they did not. This was confirmed during the episode when the morning after Sawyer makes a comment about "not going all the way" the night before.

Did anyone else wonder at the point of Kate's behavior toward Sawyer? She didn't want sex but she seemed into kissing him a bunch. Was it just Sawyer's insensitive comments regarding the possible pregnancy that were setting her off? Was it all just put there so we see that Kate was more ready for motherhood than she was letting on earlier with Clair?


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

tivolovr said:


> Did anyone else wonder at the point of Kate's behavior toward Sawyer? She didn't want sex but she seemed into kissing him a bunch. Was it just Sawyer's insensitive comments regarding the possible pregnancy that were setting her off? Was it all just put there so we see that Kate was more ready for motherhood than she was letting on earlier with Clair?


I wasn't sure if i should go there but.... Maybe she was on her period. A reason why she didn't want to do it and confirmation that she was not pregnant.


----------



## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

jehma said:


> Mummy, right? He was meant to say it with the Australian accent.


Definitely said "Mummy" I almost think they overdubbed and adult saying it to emphasize the Australian accent, and they were too lazy to find a 2 year old Australian boy. I think that's why he _sounds_ older to me.


----------



## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

MickeS said:


> He wasn't in a crib, just a bed with a side to protect him from rolling out:
> 
> Plus, some kids stay in longer because the parent is lazy (ehum...)...
> 
> ...


Wow, in looking at him again, I say that kid's closer to 4 years old. Either that, or he's frickin huge!


----------



## tms317 (May 2, 2003)

I actually think that kid looks like the "baby" from Roger Rabbit.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

tms317 said:


> I actually think that kid looks like the "baby" from Roger Rabbit.












"For crying out loud, Roger, I don't know how many times we have to do this scene! Raoul, I'll be in my trailer, taking a nap!"


----------



## Bradc314 (Dec 4, 2001)

At first, I thought he looked like a Downs baby (island side effect?) and that was why Jack didn't want to see him. Either that, or he was worried the baby looked more like Sawyer than Jack.

Then she said his name...


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

JYoung said:


> That shot of the house bugged me so I backed upped and freezed on it.
> 
> Yep, they matted in the Hollywood sign. And at an angle that would put the house squat in the middle of the Hollywood Freeway.


I can't see the hollywood sign at all. 
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:4x04_Kates_house.jpg 
And I thought it looked more Hawaii-ish than California-ish.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> If it was widely known to everyone that Aaron was not Kate's biological son, Kate's mom and Jack would not have the same reactions they had.


I can't agree with this, especially Jack. (I am smeeking here) If we assume that Claire is either (a) dead or (b) still on the island, Jack may be ashamed of the situation that caused Aaron to be motherless and Kate to adopt him.

AFA Kate's mother, knowing she is dying and that Kate has a son (adopted or not) she may just feel the maternal instincts to see/meet her only grandchild.

However, I won't rule out that Kate is pretending that Aaron is her biological child and what Jack does/does not know at this point.


----------



## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

RBlount said:


> However, I won't rule out that Kate is pretending that Aaron is her biological child and what Jack does/does not know at this point.


In which there is no reason for Claire to be one of the +2.


----------



## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> But why (especially given this episode) wouldn't Kate be there and why would she get upset and ask Jack why she would go to his funeral.


The funeral is in the future from last night's episode.

I think the funeral is either for Ben.

Jack is upset because he thinks Ben was right, they shouldn't have left the Island.


----------



## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

dba62 said:


> In which there is no reason for Claire to be one of the +2.


Of course it seems unlikely that Kate could pull that off without Jack knowing, but she could for anyone who wasn't on the island.

So then it seems likely that Jack feels guilty about Claire not making it off the Island or something of that ilk.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

bpurcell said:


> Oh, and does anyone know what that bearded guy yelled while Kate was going into the courthouse? It sounded something like "Where are they?"


Thanks to: http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/
The audio was backwards. 
I'm going to spoiler this, just in case:



> He says, "We hate you!"


And where can I learn to correctly spoiler something?


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Bradc314 said:


> At first, I thought he looked like a Downs baby (island side effect?) and that was why Jack didn't want to see him.


Yeah, that's what we both thought, too.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

jenhudson said:


> Yeah, that's what we both thought, too.


Same here.


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Rush Lyrics for Xanadu...simliar to the main poem, but condensed. It's a great song with perhaps some telling lyrics that relate:

Xanadu Lyrics

"To seek the sacred river Alph
To walk the caves of ice
To break my fast on honeydew
And drink the milk of Paradise..."
I had heard the whispered tales of immortality
The deepest mystery
From an ancient book I took a clue
I scaled the frozen mountain tops of eastern lands unknown
Time and Man alone
Searching for the lost Xanadu
Xanadu...
To stand within the Pleasure Dome
Decreed by Kubla Khan
To taste anew the fruits of life
The last immortal man
To find the sacred river Alph
To walk the caves of ice
Oh, I will dine on honeydew
And drink the milk of Paradise
A thousand years have come and gone but time has passed me by
Stars stopped in the sky
Frozen in an everlasting view
Waiting for the world to end, weary of the night
Praying for the light
Prison of the lost
Xanadu
Xanadu...
Held within the Pleasure Dome
Decreed by Kubla Khan
To taste my bitter triumph
As a mad immortal man
Nevermore shall I return
Escape these caves of ice
For I have dined on honeydew
And drunk the milk of Paradise


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Bradc314 said:


> At first, I thought he looked like a Downs baby (island side effect?)


+3


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I immediately jumped to the poem (and song) too when Olivia Newton John's movie was playing.. Well, first the song. Rush is, of course, my favorite band of all time.

More Lost thoughts tonight. As to the "yawn" comments, I'd suggest (without specific recollection, just a guess) that most of the "boring" episodes we've seen were ones where particularly cool seeds were placed for later mysteries, and I'm not willing to count this episode out anytime soon.


----------



## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> If it was widely known to everyone that Aaron was not Kate's biological son, Kate's mom and Jack would not have the same reactions they had.


I don't understand why you'd say that. Kate's mother is less interested/loves her grandson less because he's "adopted"? Jack is less awkward around Claire's baby, knowing she's not one of the Six, for whatever reason? There are dozens of reasons for the reactions. That's being way too dismissive.



tms317 said:


> My thought on the Oceanic 6 +2.
> 
> Under that assumption, I'd said that Claire is one of the +2
> 
> That being said, my guess is that pregnant Sun is the 6th survivor and Jin is the other +2


Or you could, I dunno, just say "I agree with MitchO's post" a page or two back.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> I immediately jumped to the poem (and song) too when Olivia Newton John's movie was playing.. Well, first the song. Rush is, of course, my favorite band of all time.
> 
> More Lost thoughts tonight. As to the "yawn" comments, I'd suggest (without specific recollection, just a guess) that most of the "boring" episodes we've seen were ones where particularly cool seeds were placed for later mysteries, and I'm not willing to count this episode out anytime soon.


That's all you have to say about this episode so far? Come on, I crave my jkeegan theory fix!

Seriously, really enjoy reading your take on these episodes.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

What is that Philip K. Dick book that Locke brought to Ben about?


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

MickeS said:


> That's all you have to say about this episode so far? Come on, I crave my jkeegan theory fix!
> 
> Seriously, really enjoy reading your take on these episodes.


Me too! I've been so bored at work with no Jeff keegan post to read. That's why i've been posting things from lostpedia and losteastereggs today.


----------



## tms317 (May 2, 2003)

MitchO said:


> Or you could, I dunno, just say "I agree with MitchO's post" a page or two back.


I know you had the same idea with regard to Claire, but don't think you made quite the same point with regard to Sun/Jin. No need to be snarky


----------



## thatmeowgirl (Oct 8, 2004)

DLiquid said:


> +3


here too.


----------



## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

tms317 said:


> I know you had the same idea with regard to Claire, but don't think you made quite the same point with regard to Sun/Jin. No need to be snarky





MitchO said:


> When Jack first described the "8 survivors, 2 didn't make it", my first thought was "that's the cover story for the world to explain why they came out with Aaron *and Sun*'s (to date unborn) child".
> 
> So maybe the world thinks Claire (*and Sun*?) "survived the crash", gave birth on the island and died before rescue, and Kate, being the "heroine" she is, she took care of the baby and treats him like her own son? Plenty of people adopt babies and call them "my son".


'Sall good.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I don't see how Kate could pass off Aaron as her biological child unless at least a year passed between the crash and rescue, which is another 9 months or so from now in the island timeline.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Just thinking based on reality, Kate was probably arrested the second she got off the plane back to L.A. So I don't think her trial would have lasted anywhere close to as long as Aaron has been alive, even if he's on the low end of the guesses of his age.

I guess there could be some other way Kate was arrested, but I don't think she would be in L.A. It seems like since they're calling them the Oceanic Six, there was a big story of their rescue, and they were all flown back to L.A. 

-smak-


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

tivolovr said:


> Did anyone else wonder at the point of Kate's behavior toward Sawyer? She didn't want sex but she seemed into kissing him a bunch. Was it just Sawyer's insensitive comments regarding the possible pregnancy that were setting her off? Was it all just put there so we see that Kate was more ready for motherhood than she was letting on earlier with Clair?


She's supposed to be conflicted between Jack and Sawyer but she just comes off as a tease. 



Cindy1230 said:


> I can't see the hollywood sign at all.
> http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:4x04_Kates_house.jpg
> And I thought it looked more Hawaii-ish than California-ish.


That picture is after the camera panned to follow the cab down the street.
Previously, the Hollywood sign was in the upper right hand corner.


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

It's funny how now that we see more non-island settings I watch for any hints of things...like for instance in Aarons room..id there any signifigance to the cut out "monsters" hold hands hanging on his wall next to what looks like a Babar picture?...Maybe I'm just looking too deep into thing.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> What is that Philip K. Dick book that Locke brought to Ben about?


Argh, I had the same question and forgot to freeze it on there. My GF said she saw electric on there so that would make it Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? I don't know about that. It would be cooler if it were Ubik.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> Argh, I had the same question and forgot to freeze it on there. My GF said she saw electric on there so that would make it Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? I don't know about that. It would be cooler if it were Ubik.


The book is "Valis"


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

MickeS said:


> Or Jack could just happen to have a picture of him together with his father that she happened to see.


Or maybe they both see Jacob before they leave the island and both say, "Father!." 

Do we have any Dharma condoms or birth control pills on the island? Kate wasn't sure she wanted to leave the island, but if she gets pregnant, she'll have to leave or die. Since she dodged that bullet once, she may be more careful from now on. Also, Ben was worried about Alex and Carl--you'd think all the girls would be on the pill at a young age.

I thought the fake wreckage was in the Indian Ocean. So how do they explain that if they actually find them in the South Pacific? I like the idea that they make them go to the other location to be "found." Did anyone official say South Pacific?

Why make Kate out to be the hero? Jack, as the doctor, would be the natural one to make the hero of your story. Maybe he didn't want them to. Surely they weren't thinking far enough ahead to think it would help Kate in her trial--and if that was the point, why was she so reluctant to use it?

I still think it's crazy to get off of all those other charges, even if they can't make the murder stick. There must be more to it than just rescuing a few people.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Bradc314 said:


> At first, I thought he looked like a Downs baby (island side effect?) and that was why Jack didn't want to see him. Either that, or he was worried the baby looked more like Sawyer than Jack.
> 
> Then she said his name...


I thought he had no eyes 

Then I realized he was just waking up and his eyes were closed. But, same thing. I was expecting the "baby" to have some kind of physical defect from the reaction that Jack had.


----------



## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

Sirius Black said:


> So is the guy that Kate has to get back to at the end of the season 3 cliffhanger Aaron? Meaning he might wake up and wonder where mommy is...


I'm wondering if the person Kate has to get back to is Ben.

He would for sure know about the baby.
And depending on the circumstances, Ben might not want Kate and Jack in contact, hence the sneaking around and meeting out by the runway.


----------



## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

What was it the psychic guy told Claire?
Something about not letting anyone else raise the baby (Aaron)?

or "You must raise him yourself"?


anyone... anyone......


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Jericho Dog said:


> What was it the psychic guy told Claire?
> Something about not letting anyone else raise the baby (Aaron)?
> 
> or "You must raise him yourself"?
> ...


Yeah, good catch; here's a transcript of that scene from the episode "Raised by Another", 1-10:


> MALKIN: I can tell you, this is important.
> 
> CLAIRE: Okay.
> 
> ...


link


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

He must not be raised by an Other.


----------



## avery (May 29, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> I still think it's crazy to get off of all those other charges, even if they can't make the murder stick.


She wasn't exonerated. She plea bargained and got "time served plus 10 years probation". [and the restriction on leaving the state] Avoiding additional jail time was what she got lucky with - and all she obviously really cared about.

Lawyers... care to weigh in if this is inaccurate in some way?


----------



## bro1ncos (Aug 2, 2004)

Anyone else think think that Ben and the other captive (can't think of his name) were talking in code when they referred to the 3.2 million dollars? Ben's reply of 3.2, not 3.3 or 3.4 seemed like an odd reponse. I think the other captive is Ben's spy on the boat.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

bro1ncos said:


> Anyone else think think that Ben and the other captive (can't think of his name) were talking in code when they referred to the 3.2 million dollars? Ben's reply of 3.2, not 3.3 or 3.4 seemed like an odd reponse. I think the other captive is Ben's spy on the boat.


I do think they were talking in code but I don't think the 3.3 or 3.4 response was weird...I said the same thing right before Ben did. Why 3.2, seriously?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hapdrastic said:


> I do think they were talking in code but I don't think the 3.3 or 3.4 response was weird...I said the same thing right before Ben did. Why 3.2, seriously?


Perhaps the code wasn't intended for Ben (who seemed genuinely puzzled by the amount)..?


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> I do think they were talking in code but I don't think the 3.3 or 3.4 response was weird...I said the same thing right before Ben did. Why 3.2, seriously?


Maybe he's not too concerned with his significant digits in pi, so he rounded up to 3.2.

Edit: and maybe he's too stupid to realize that you don't round 3.14 up. Dummy.

Greg


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Or it could be that he knows that $3.2 million is the amount that Ben has stashed away somewhere - if it's not more than that, no point in asking for it. That seemed the most obvious reason to me.  And the reason Ben said "Why not 3.3 or 3.4?" is that he was genuinely surprised that Miles knew about the money and how much it is.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Actually no. The location of the CRASH has been identified as the South Pacific - from the news reports when they found the shell of the plane under the water. The real location of the island has not been revealed (unless I missed something).


The location of the CRASH has been identified as the Indian Ocean.


johnb41 said:


> Aaron, i think is probably max 2 yrs old. I don't know any kid who's still in a crib older than 2. My 2 daughters graduated to a regular bed at 1.5.
> 
> And at 2 i think Aaron is old enough to form simple phrases like "Hi Mommy"...
> 
> John


We left our kids in as long as we could. I think they each were in there until they were at least 3.


Cindy1230 said:


> And where can I learn to correctly spoiler something?


Just type [ spoiler ] text you want hidden [ /spoiler ]. Take the spaces out from inside the brackets and, voila!!


stellie93 said:


> I still think it's crazy to get off of all those other charges, even if they can't make the murder stick. There must be more to it than just rescuing a few people.


The standard of proof in a criminal trial is "beyond a reasonable doubt." In order to establish the facts, they needed evidence. Kate's mom was their evidence, and when she decided not to testify, the State no longer had enough evidence to prove anything. In that case, Kate would likely have been better off going ahead with the trial, because if the State can't prove their case, she'd get off. However, the chance that her mom could reconsider, or that something else would surface, or that she'd have to stay in custody for the duration of the trial, made it an easy choice to take the probation.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> Well, even for non-lawyers, it's not that hard to figure out. This was a "The People vs Kate" thing instead of the "Government vs Kate" thing.


Er... but how would anyone know that they say "The People" in state court vs. "Government" in federal?!?! I don't think "not that hard to figure out" means what you think it means


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Kate's Mom was only a witness to the murder/arson charge, but wasn't there a whole list of other charges, like when she robbed the bank and ran from the marshall? When did she serve time? It seemed like she'd been free since she got back, which would've been a while judging by Aaron's size.(maybe you can't judge by that). Lawyers anywhere? Is this realistic?


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

stiffi said:


> Wow, in looking at him again, I say that kid's closer to 4 years old. Either that, or he's frickin huge!


Well, he's in a toddler bed, which uses a crib matress.
And his "mummy" weighs about 98 pounds.

So he looks big in comparison.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

madscientist said:


> Er... but how would anyone know that they say "The People" in state court vs. "Government" in federal?!?! I don't think "not that hard to figure out" means what you think it means


I don't think they do say "Government" in federal court - I think they say United States v. Hotkate.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Or it could be that he knows that $3.2 million is the amount that Ben has stashed away somewhere - if it's not more than that, no point in asking for it. That seemed the most obvious reason to me.  And the reason Ben said "Why not 3.3 or 3.4?" is that he was genuinely surprised that Miles knew about the money and how much it is.


I got the impression that Miles wanted a specific amount because he felt he was owed that amount, or Ben deserved to lose that amount, or something. Like the goal wasn't entirely blackmail (or extortion ), but punishment, and this particular amount of money was significant for some reason related to why Ben was being punished.


----------



## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

Six pages and no mention of this.
Makes me think I'm the only one who thinks the granade Locke put in Miles mouth is a fake. Locke is just trying to torture him, if he really died Locke would never get the answers he seeks. Once the questions are answered, he will show the granade to be fake.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Miles wouldn't even ask Ben for $50 if he didn't think Ben had it.

So why does Miles think Ben has millions of dollars?

For most of the time we've known Ben, we saw he came there as a boy, helped kill all the Dharma people, and eventually led the Others. All the time thinking he was never off the island.

Recently we found out that Ben has been off the island.

So where did Ben get millions of dollars? And didn't Miles say something like I know who you are to Ben. Not that he's the Ben Linus that he was assigned to capture, but it seemed like Miles knew Ben was somebody important off the island.

-smak-


----------



## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

jamesbobo said:


> Six pages and no mention of this.
> Makes me think I'm the only one who thinks the granade Locke put in Miles mouth is a fake. Locke is just trying to torture him, if he really died Locke would never get the answers he seeks. Once the questions are answered, he will show the granade to be fake.


Why didn't Miles just spit it out and kick it at Locke when he was walking through the door? His missing kidney wouldn't save his butt then. And I agree, it can't be real, he wouldn't risk losing information he so badly wants.


----------



## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

You know what? I'm beginning to think there's a LOT more to this story that we don't know!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> I have a limited perspective nitpick: It drove me crazy as a lawyer that Kate was being charged in California state court for federal crimes and a murder committed in Iowa.





DevdogAZ said:


> That bugged me too. As soon as I saw the CA flag, I was wondering why she'd be standing trial for those crimes in California.


Can a change of venue be done to another state?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

betts4 said:


> Xanadu is a pretty interesting choice for the writers. Not the movie but the reference to the poem.


FYI - The poem is "Kubla Kahn", not "Xanadu"


----------



## gltrstar77 (Dec 29, 2007)

does anyone else think the person in the coffin was a freighter person?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jamesbobo said:


> Six pages and no mention of this.
> Makes me think I'm the only one who thinks the granade Locke put in Miles mouth is a fake. Locke is just trying to torture him, if he really died Locke would never get the answers he seeks. Once the questions are answered, he will show the granade to be fake.


Yeah, he's not gonna kill Miles, just like Jack was never gonna kill Lo *<CLICK>*



But seriously, I agree, I figured the grenade to be fake too.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

smak said:


> Miles wouldn't even ask Ben for $50 if he didn't think Ben had it.
> 
> So why does Miles think Ben has millions of dollars?


Well, let's see, what do we know about Miles? He can talk to the dead (kind of anyway), and uses that ability to liberate money from the deceased. Perhaps Miles knows from a dead person that Ben has money.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

I've already deleted the episode so I can't go back and watch again, but, in the flash forward, didn't Kate's mom mention something having happened 4 years ago? I can't remember exactly what it was. Kate blowing up the house maybe?

That might help with the timeline.


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

stalemate said:


> I've already deleted the episode so I can't go back and watch again, but, in the flash forward, didn't Kate's mom mention something having happened 4 years ago? I can't remember exactly what it was. Kate blowing up the house maybe?
> 
> That might help with the timeline.


I don't remember exactly - but she said that 'the Doctor's have been telling her that she's only got 6 months to live, for the past 4 years. So, she doesn't want to testify against her daughter.' And, if I recall, it was shortly after Kate recalled that the last time she'd seen her Mom was when she was diagnosed...


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

gltrstar77 said:


> does anyone else think the person in the coffin was a freighter person?


no.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

SoBelle0 said:


> I don't remember exactly - but she said that 'the Doctor's have been telling her that she's only got 6 months to live, for the past 4 years. So, she doesn't want to testify against her daughter.' And, if I recall, it was shortly after Kate recalled that the last time she'd seen her Mom was when she was diagnosed...


That seems right. I think there might be enough information there to combine with older episodes and piece together a pretty close approximation of the time frame for this flash forward, but it is going to take someone with more patience and a better Lost memory than me.


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Makes it sound like it's been 4 years since Kate visited her Mom, which wouldn't have been long before the plane crash... right? Of course, it could be 4 years since anything, knowing these folks.

I re-watched:

Mom says - Why won't you talk to me?

Kate says - Because Mom, the last time I tried to talk to you, when you got sick. When I risked my life to see you, you screamed for help and called the police.

Mom says - It all changed when I thought you were dead. My Doctor's have given me 6 months to live, for the last 4 years. I don't know how long I'm going to last. I came here to tell you that I don't want to testify against you.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> Well, let's see, what do we know about Miles? He can talk to the dead (kind of anyway), and uses that ability to liberate money from the deceased. Perhaps Miles knows from a dead person that Ben has money.


And I'll bet he learned that bit of info from the dead Naomi.

And we know nothing more about who is in the coffin than we knew before. Hell, it might be ME in that coffin for all I know.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I rewound the end several times, and always heard "Eric." And add me to the list that thought he was downes at first, also.

Here's my theory on Aaron: Claire isn't raising him (she's dead?), so whatever bad mojo is working is in full force. Jack now believes in the Island's mojo, and is afraid of the kid. Kate is too, so that's why she didn't want him in court. But, come to think of it, when the lawyer mentioned getting a character witness, she protested that she wouldn't use her son that way. That kid couldn't be a witness, what was she protesting?


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Of course, Kate knew her mom had cancer before the crash. I don't know if we know how long before, but it was in a flashback. The other problem with the 4 year comment is that Aaron is only 2 years old.

Good point, Philosofy. Few 2 year olds do well in a courtroom setting, and it's next to impossible to swear them in.  But Kate apparently didn't want Jack to testify either, since the lawyer asked for forgiveness for putting Jack on the stand. Odd.


----------



## avery (May 29, 2006)

Philosofy said:


> But, come to think of it, when the lawyer mentioned getting a character witness, she protested that she wouldn't use her son that way. That kid couldn't be a witness, what was she protesting?


Her lawyer only wanted to have Aaron _present_ in the courtroom - it was his effort to "make it about [Kate's] character"... show she's a caring mother, with a child who depends on her, etc..


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, MickeS and Cindy1230's praise encouraged me to rewatch the episode (which I initially wasn't sure I was gonna do), plus it boosted my ego even higher than its usual stratospheric levels.  (Thanks!) Let's see if I catch something I missed this time around..

First, loved the particular opening eye-shot on Locke, what with the faded scar and all. That comment (either from here or one of the Lost wiki sites) about Locke playing backgammon on the "black" side against Sawyer summed it up - Locke's acting out of his element, a bit more on the dark, evil side.. He's sleeping in Ben's bed, in Ben's house, and he moved Ben into the basement where Locke's dad was being kept. Cold..

(by the way, that was cool seeing where that "concrete" hallway was, in relation to anything else.. So Ben's house has a secret room behind a bookcase, and a mondo-super-basement-which-looks-like-it-might-connect-to-a-network-of-hatches-for-all-we-know.. I'm half expecting to see a secret bat-pole too..)

"The last two eggs" sounded so final.. Relax, don't kill the chicken.. it'll lay more! The others had to have been tending to them to get their eggs.. make yourself at home! They're not gonna be dropping chickens or eggs in a food drop!

I like when Locke takes control over other people (Ben, the undercover cop in his weed flashback, etc), but not so much when he tries doing it over the Losties.. how he handled Kate wasn't cool.

I've thought since an episode or so ago, I think, that Miles works for Ben.. I more strongly think it this episode, starting with Ben saying "Where are you keeping your other prisoner? Miles, is it?".. (while he's toying with Locke, since he'd already rattled the whole crew's names off to him at gunpoint, it was almost a bit of a slip-up, like he was trying too hard to pretend that he didn't know him). More on that later..

While watching Ben mess with Locke's mind ("You keep hitting dead ends. Couldn't find the cabin, can't make contact with Jacob, you're so desperate for what to do next, you're even asking _me_ for help."), I realized that Ben (who is incredibly fun to watch when he does that) reminds me of Anthony Hopkins' portrayal of Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs.. "All those tedious sticky fumblings in the back seats of cars.. while all you could think of was getting out.. getting _anywhere_.. getting all the way, to the F... B... I...". Excellent characters. I also realized as he said that whole speech that upon second viewing it was a _very_ transparent attempt to distract John from his question.. John had just asked Ben to share, "seeing as you claim to have a spy on his ship" (the his being Miles'). They were talking about Miles, Locke brings up the spy, there's a musical poignant "thump" of music, and Ben launches into a speech designed to enrage Locke into forgetting what he'd been asking about.

I did think it was an interesting writing device to have Kate and Sawyer drinking coffee (which I don't remember seeing on the show before this, at least not on the island.. I hadn't noticed any Dharma coffee cups before this one), and then later having Kate and Jack's conversation where she says "there won't be any us-going-out-for-coffee until you want to see him" (or something like that).

(At least in just those two moments alone, Sawyer won.. he got coffee!  )

I'm a bit confused why Kate's keeping secrets from Sawyer.. The first time around, it was a mystery.. now we know why she was there - to ask Miles if he knew who she was - to find out if the world knew she was a fugitive, and whether she would be walking into the arm of the law by leaving.. (she's not pregnant.. seems pretty sure, and the final scene lends to that.. I agree with Cindy1230's thought that this is the closest the networks will get to just telling us she's having her period..).. Sawyer suggests she's spying, she dismisses that, he says "so why don't you tell me wh.." and she says she doesn't trust him. With what?? He already knows she's a fugitive.. Maybe she's trying to hide from him the very idea that she's trying to explore the option of leaving? Eh, either way, no reason to argue with him.

(And I hadn't known that Sawyer didn't know that pregnant women on the island die.. A few weeks ago when he says "Well let's hope not!" to her, I figured it was a kind, caring, yet misunderstood statement from him to her, saying he hopes she won't die, but now it turns out it was just a "good, don't have to raise a baby here" line.)

And here's something - why the hell isn't she pregnant?? (or Juliete, for that matter, who unless she was imitating Sun, actually had sex with Goodwin (just kidding! Sun had sex!)).. Juliete said that guys are walking around basically with super sperm, and the chances of conception were huge.. Hell, Jin was _sterile_ and they had kids.. shouldn't Kate be pregnant? Is that significant? I really don't want to go down crazy theory line on this one, but I'll at least state the question: did the island somehow judge her and not let the pregnancy happen? Is it because she's flawed that she doesn't get the reward of having a child?

Moving on, the lawyer actor that bugged me wasn't her lawyer, it was the prosecuting attorney (or D.A.?).. It looks like she's Susan Gibney, who I'd just seen a few nights earlier on the Knight Rider pilot.. (and since she seemed familiar even back then, I now know from imdb that I'd previously seen her on various Star Trek episodes (Dr. Leah Brahms in STTNG, which was the engineer who flirted w/Jordy in a holodeck simulation, and she played some commander on earth in a Deep Space Nine episode). Trivia bonus to the person who can say why I care that she was also in a Columbo movie/episode (even though I haven't seen that one).

data: The judge had a weird name: Arthur Galzethron (his name plaque actually said "Honorable Arthur Galzethron").. I used to have an anagram tool, but I can't find it.. Looks suspicious though.

Ok, so I guess I'd never looked at the great seal of california, but when I saw it behind the judge, I saw a few Lost elements.. When I went to find it online I saw more:










A bear, the ocean, hills that look just like the island, a guy swinging a hammer/pickaxe thing (like Sawyer/Kate on the other island).. All we need now is to see some spartan-looking dude on the island, and we've got ourselves a match..

By the way, on a personal note, I'm very happy I could dumb-myself-down enough (as I try to do before shows/movies, so I can be surprised) to forget having read someone speculate that maybe it was Aaron that Kate was going home to at the end of season three. When Kate walked into the house, I even paused and said to my wife excitedly "look at this..! How do they top this? How are they possibly going to end on a big note here - all she's going to do is go see her kid! What could we possibly see??".. There's something to be said for reducing your aesthetic distance to zero.. nothing I like more than being swept away enough to forget stuff I already knew or suspected. It lasted up until she said the name Aaron, too. I love being happy to have missed something. 

But on a second watch, it explained why Kate was so damned afraid of being in jail for the duration of the trial.. When the judge said she'd be in jail and Kate freaked, I'd said "Wow, why is she SO afraid of jail? I mean, everyone's gotta be afraid of it, but hell, Kate can handle herself.. that looked like _panic_ in her eyes.. Why has she always resisted it so?".. Turns out she's resisting it more now, after the island, because of Aaron - that'd strike panic into me too, and I agree, that'd make her snap at any offer the prosecutor even hinted about, even if it meant being stuck in one state for 10 years.. (at least it's California, which is pretty damned big! We're not talking Rhode Island here! But, it's no island..)

The Scooby-Doo reference was great. Just mentioning that alone though would be a smeek, since everyone's said that, so I'll follow it up with the observation that there were a lot of ghosts on Scooby-Doo, and that was right before a Miles scene.

Umm, wait.. boat house? As in, there's a boat around maybe? (I know we had a sailboat, and the others took it, but maybe look for it? People can't trust Desmond's snow-globe statement enough to not even want to try sailing away, can they? But I'm getting ahead of myself, because there isn't actually a boat - just a boathouse.. but what's THAT about - water? At the Others' camp? What about the audio fence that's surrounding their camp? That's not just a lake there - I don't believe they have a boat house for the boat they use to sail around some enclosed lake.. that's gotta go out to the ocean.. so how are they safe from the smoke monster (or anyone else) wading out into the water where the fence ends? Or does the fence go over the water? Why not swim beneath it? Does the fence go under water? Wouldn't that screw up the sound thing since it's water? So my point is, why is there a boathouse within walking distance of the Others' houses, presumably inside the audio fence? (and remember, you can't say "well gee she might have climbed over the fence on a tree", because she's holding a plate of food with a tall beverage on it).

I guess the boathouse looks different from the cabin, somehow? I can see that confusing a bunch of people in the audience, especially with Kate doing the same wipe-the-dirt-off-of-the-window thing that people have done with the cabin (if I'm remembering correctly).

Now here's something interesting on the rewatch.. I'm watching the scene with Kate and Miles in the boathouse.. Kate says "I'm not letting you go", and he says "I don't want to be let go. I'm exactly where I want to be. What _I_ want is one minute of someone's time.".. That made sense the first time through, because he's with the group that has Ben, so at least he's on the right part of the island, and we heard him tell Juliete/Jack/etc that he wants to find Ben. But after the second time, it's a bit less clear.. if you believe his story to Ben that he wants money to say he's dead, then he no longer wants to be there, tied up - he'd want to be let go.. (not "exactly where I want to be"). If you disbelieve that story, and think that he's working for Ben and talking to him in code (like Naomi talked to the freighter in code, which Miles pointed out to forgetful Dan), then it still is confusing - why would he be satisfied to be there, tied up? He said it with a particular amount of conviction, as if trusting Kate to tell her a secret - THIS is EXACTLY where I want to be.. At the very least, he certainly didn't want to be there with a grenade in his mouth (real, or fake).

So, it certainly is more clear thinking about all of Dan's scenes now with the idea that he has memory issues.. Even when Jack first found him in the jungle and asked his name (as I think someone already mentioned), he turned his head around weird, like he was trying to remember, then slowly said "I'm Daniel Faraday.".. When Kate said "Why don't you put that (gun) away" to Dan while Miles was ghost-whispering to Naomi, his answer was slow (which just seemed like how he talked) "uh.... because, um Miles...would kill me?".. First time though, he's just being funny.. Now, it's like he's used to answering most questions with guesses - like he's not 100% sure.. (Ok, maybe reaching, but you watch a Miles scene now and say that the whole memory thing doesn't fit now, especially with why he didn't know he was sad).

I also like the theory (but I'm not jumping on the bandwagon just yet) that the 3-card thing he was going with Charlotte was to help him either "remember" the last time through this (if it's a loop), or "see" the future (if it's just flashes of the future), similar to Desmond and Ms Hawking. I'll need to see more to believe that yet though - the ockham's razor solution of memory loss fits into the story nicely, especially with the idea that he might get better on the island due to the healing that usually happens there.

There was one 2-second scene with Daniel looking at a Dharma cereal box on the shelf they'd built on the beach, intrigued/puzzled.. it struck me then that if Dharma does still exist off of the island, it looks there like he's not part of it (or at least not such a part of it that he was used to standard Dharma rations and food drops as a norm). I think I'm still in the camp that believes that Dharma's been over for a while now, and that Charlotte knows about it either because of another group wanting to follow up with some of the Dharma work (or island work), or just because she's an anthropologist and is fascinated at the Dharma organization as a piece of history (an interesting piece at that, what with those polar bear bones being out there in Tunisia).

I'm also a bit fuzzy on this whole ocean thing.. In "Confirmed Dead", the video of the plane wreckage was coming from the "Christiane I", a salvage vehicle in the Indian Ocean.. it was looking at the Sunda Trench, just south of Bali (pull up Google Earth for reference, I couldn't believe I hadn't yet.. It's very close to Australia). So what's this talk (in Jack's lie) about crash landing on an island in the South Pacific? How'd that story hold up when they started telling that lie? How does someone end up on an island in a completely different ocean from the plane they were just in? And he says the plane crash landed on the island, by the way! He's completely contradicting the news reports of the underwater plane..

..maybe that will be revealed to be fake, or another crash? But that's kinda weird for the writers to throw in.. So, this whole thing's foggy.. but if it's a grand coverup that the Oceanic Six are participating in, as we've all been guessing, then it's a bizarre one at that, since they presumably planted a fake airplane and then allowed people off the island and had them all say they crashed on an island in a different ocean.,, ???

Ok, I'm only 23 minutes into the episode and this post is huge.. I'm not about to have the power cord on my laptop die and the whole post get lost.. so I'm posting now then I'll continue in another.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

smak said:


> So where did Ben get millions of dollars? And didn't Miles say something like I know who you are to Ben. Not that he's the Ben Linus that he was assigned to capture, but it seemed like Miles knew Ben was somebody important off the island.
> 
> -smak-


From the company Richard was running on the mainland?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

data: At Hurley's VCR there, the alternative to Xanadu was "Satan's Doom". Doesn't look like a real movie, so it sounds like a great mystery line about "which would you choose - paradise or hell?".. kinda like, stay on the island, or leave? 

When he starts the movie, the line from the song we hear is: (filling in inaudible blanks from lyrics I found on the web.. audible is regular, inaudible is in italics):



> They call it Xanadu.
> 
> And now, open your eyes and see
> what we have made is real.
> ...


I love that this is the second time Sawyer's told someone that if you want something secret, don't tell Hurley.

In the passageway to where Ben was being held, there's an orange door with a "Danger High Voltage" sign that says "Authorized Personnel Only". I know I don't have a sign like that in my basement.

Ok.. so when Kate busts the door open and Ben sees Miles, the very first look of Ben's seems to be saying some combination of "Nonono.. Dude.. don't say you know me", and the next is a more solid "Careful what you say" look, IMHO.

(Actually, I'll enjoy the story either way.. if it turns out he doesn't know Ben, that'd be interesting too.. but I think it's more likely that he's talking in code, especially with the hint in a previous episode by them having him be the one to remind Dan of the code Naomi used.. If you think about it now, the code Naomi used didn't really do much, other than to get them to bring bulletproof jackets and guns, which they'd probably do anyway.. what it did more than anything else was give Miles the chance to point out the talking in code angle, as yet another hint towards this conversation.)

Ok, so endulging the face-value version for a second, who's the "He" that's put a lot of time and energy into finding Ben? "You know who I am?" "Yes" "You know who I work for?" "Yes" "You know he's put a lot of time and energy into finding you.". Well, we know he works for that amadon(sp??) guy, right? (the bald black guy that hired Naomi and went to Hurley's institution in a flash forward). Maybe they picked a black actor so we'd be absolutely clear it wasn't Alvar Hanso, the old white haired white guy who funded Dharma.. Either way, he's not talking about Alvar Hanso to Ben.. It's not Hanso that's after Ben for revenge (again, IF we believe that none of this is code).

Ok, so onto the code version.. What's this conversation mean if he's talking in code? The "I can tell him you're dead" part is very unclear, to the point of almost killing the idea that he's talking in code.. but then he says the very specific "$3.2 million dollars"..

(well, see, now as I'm typing this, I'm pausing and unpausing, and I _was_ going to say that it felt like code.. but now that I watch it again, Ben does seem surprised when he mentions money.. Ben says "You've arranged this meeting so you could blackmail me?".. the look on his face makes it tough to believe they're secretly talking, unless Ben deserves an Oscar for his performance for little ol Kate there.

..but, for the sake of completeness, I'll continue looking at it from that side.. Great next line by Miles, "(Well), It's extortion, if you want to get technical." 

So, in remembering it during the day, I'd thought that Ben's "3.2? Why not 3.3? 3.4?" was not just a writer's hint to us that the number was odd, but a way to cover up w/Kate if it had been a code, by making light of it and acting surprised.. otherwise she'd be like "He asked for that weird amount and Ben didn't ask why?".

Eh, the more I watch it the more I may have talked myself out of this. Ben looks pretty convincing when he's talking about Charlotte having seen him.

But, the most convincing thing leaning towards this being a coded discussion is the part where Miles says "you have two days", Ben (locked in a dungeon) says "my present situation is a _little_ bit restricted. Can that be ammended?", and Miles says "One week, in cash".. How the hell could an extra 5 days make a difference? He's tied up in a dungeon on an island.. That sounded more like they were planning something to happen at a given time. By the way, at the end Miles angrily yells "Don't even think about.." and gets cut off.. think about what??

Here's a thought, maybe Miles isn't the guy on the boat, it's what someone else said earlier in this or last week's thread - it's Charlotte. My new contribution now is just the idea that when Ben told him "Your friend Charlotte has seen me. She knows I'm alive", he did that so Miles would go after Charlotte (who maybe Ben thinks can handle herself and will take out Miles), and maybe that sends Charlotte a message that Ben's alive and ok.

(Ben finally did re-read the book Locke gave him - he had it in his hands during the entire Miles discussion. Hadn't caught that before)

Very satisfying to see the "Well, I un-bannish you" line make Kate so happy.

Ok.. The Dan/Charlotte card thing again.. The scene starts with her looking up from her watch and saying "Time. Okay, tell me. What do you remember?".. That's pretty clear that she was timing him, right then (i.e. that he saw the cards before the timer/watch was started).. So I don't think she's checking his memory of what the cards were like from the-last-time-around-a-time-loop or anything (which I'd read somewhere this afternoon, I think). He just doesn't remember.. But he's getting better.

So, it was very interesting hearing that their lie/story involved being stuck on an island.. I thought they'd say something like they were found at sea on a life raft (and that somehow we'd have the amount of time they were lost explained, and the rocket experiment seemed to fit that bill nicely). As someone pointed out, does that mean they actually had to find another island that wasn't inhabited and pick them up from it, lest someone want to find it on Google Earth, or to go visit where the famous Oceanic Six lives for a brief while? Not much of a visit though, because the lawyer said Kate almost starved out there.

Tired. That's all I got.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I'm inclined to believe Desmond that Claire and her baby both make it off the island. Now, it's possible that they both make it off the real island, and Claire dies before being rescued off the fake one. But another possibility is that they are simply covering up the fact that the baby is Claire's. What if Claire was rescued, but had to pretend like Aaron wasn't hers in order to keep people from coming after him?


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Delta13 said:


> Aaron wasn't exactly tiny at 100 days ...


Just to pick nits, we haven't seen Aaron at 100 days. The season premiere (or maybe last year's season finale) said they had been on the island 91 days.



stiffi said:


> Does anybody here have kids? Aaron said "Hi Mommy" clear as a bell. Children don't talk until 1 and 1/2 if you are lucky, and they don't speak very clearly until about 3. You might be able to understand them pretty well from 2 to 2 and 1/2 years old, but boys are generally slow to develop speaking skills.


At 26 months, my nephew said "Thank you for my big boy bed, mommy. I really like it."


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

It looks like the last three episodes of this mini-run are ...



Spoiler



Desmond-centric, Juliette-centric, and Sun/Jin-centric. If it's true, as someone posted earlier, that we find out the identities of all the O6 by the seventh episode, then it seems to me that the two unknowns would be Sun and Jin, since neither Desmond nor Juliette were on the plane


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jamesbobo said:


> Six pages and no mention of this.
> Makes me think I'm the only one who thinks the granade Locke put in Miles mouth is a fake. Locke is just trying to torture him, if he really died Locke would never get the answers he seeks. Once the questions are answered, he will show the granade to be fake.


Also, Locke would have been taking an awfully big chance with his own life, or with the life of anyone whom he'd send to check on Miles later. Then, again, he's been shown to be a tad homicidal, and Sawyer's latest nickname for him (Kurtz) may be quite appropriate.

But, yeah, +1 for me.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Later on in the episode Locke has blood on his hands and he says he just killed a chicken. That explains the "last two eggs", perhaps. Which would mean he had already made up his mind to kill the chicken when he brought Ben his breakfast. Either that, or he killed the chicken and kept the blood for later (weird, but Kurtz-like).

Of course, "last two eggs" may have just meant the last two in the fridge, until he finds the hen house and gets more.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Killing the chicken that lays the eggs...I see some symbolism here. He killed the chicken, but he's not killing Ben or Miles.

I guess he already got all of the information he needed out of the chicken.


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## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

Two things cracked us up.
First was Locke telling Ben to read the book again, he might pick up something he missed.
Thanks, writers, who know many of us watch the show twice.

Second was, when Sawyer and Kate were talking in bed in the morning, Sawyer's hair kept flipping between bedhead and flat.


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## Big Behr (Mar 13, 2003)

Regarding the $3.2 million--the have mentioned a few times the importance of flying the helicopter on a bearing of 325 degrees. Are there other references to 32 or 32xxx anywhere else?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Mike Farrington said:


> I don't know why, but production errors really just stick out like a sore thumb to me. I swear, I'm not a nitpicker... I just found this humorous.
> 
> When Locke slams the plate of eggs against the cement wall, the wall shakes. They had me convinced; before this I would have sworn the cement walls were real and they were just using some pre-existing structure.


Forgive me, because I just watched this ep this morning, and I've only read the first 50 posts. But when Locke opened the door where Ben was being held and when Kate shot the lock off, it was apparent the door hinged on the left. However, when Kate slammed the door shut after Miles talked to Ben, it hinged on the right.


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## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

What lawyer would want to call a 2 year old child to a witness stand? Kates lawyer said "he" is your olny hope, and kate said "I will not use my son"

Could she have more than one son? One that will come into play later?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

scsiguy72 said:


> What lawyer would want to call a 2 year old child to a witness stand? Kates lawyer said "he" is your olny hope, and kate said "I will not use my son"
> 
> Could she have more than one son? One that will come into play later?


Not to the stand. Probably just to sit in the courtroom and cry over how he misses mommy so the jurors will feel sorry for her.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> Killing the chicken that lays the eggs...I see some symbolism here. He killed the chicken, but he's not killing Ben or Miles.
> 
> I guess he already got all of the information he needed out of the chicken.


Then again, he was hosting dinner that night. I beleive Claire made mention of it.


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

I don't recall if they revealed the sex of the person whose funeral it was. Possible to be Claire?


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

scheckeNYK said:


> I don't recall if they revealed the sex of the person whose funeral it was. Possible to be Claire?


I think it's highly unlikely to be Claire. First, the clues we have so far (the newspaper article of which we could only read bits) imply it is a man. Second, based on Jack's condition I think the funeral is clearly the farthest in the future scene we've seen... and if Claire was alive all that time then why was Kate taking care of Aaron as her own son?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Well at least it's pretty clear why Kate doesn't want to go back now. She doesn't want to lose Arron to Claire.


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Ok.. so when Kate busts the door open and Ben sees Miles, the very first look of Ben's seems to be saying some combination of "Nonono.. Dude.. don't say you know me", and the next is a more solid "Careful what you say" look, IMHO.


For whatever reason, Ben has refused to share any information with the Losties, even on threat of death. I think the look was more because he had information that Ben is trying desperately to keep secret. Not necessarily that they are on the same side.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Even though it's obviously Claire's Aaron, Kate could have changed his name. She could have called him anything once she took him off the Island, no?

It's only the writers letting us know who it is that she kept the name.


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## sitbackrelax (Feb 24, 2008)

I don't understand why Kate would ever want to actual take Claire's child from her unless it was absolutely necessary (I mean, it wasn't as though she handled the thought of having a child so well from the get-go). After watching the episode, I personally thought that something _must_ have happened to Claire on the way off the island (not necessarily death, but just anything that would stop her from being able to care for a child) and, seeing as she and Kate have occasionally been buddies and everything, gave her responsability for him.

I find it HIGHLY unlike he's possessed just because that would be an almost rediculous twist in the show. We've had *some* ghosts, yes, and some weird monsters and everything, and perhaps a spirit in the form of Jacob or something, but I think the creators of the show have begun to realize that the more magic they throw in now, the more dissatisfied the majority of the audience becomes and down go the ratings.

More likely than not, Jack just doesn't want to see him because he has some sort of guilt over losing Claire. Jack's like that pretty often after all-- he can't save someone and he gets pretty emotionally torn up. I could especially see this being true in Claire's case (everyone loves her, after all, Hurley said so earlier) and even more so if he found out they were related. Yikes, what a big ball of emotional crazies we would have there.

---
EDIT: 
After thinking about it more and reading some of the posts here, I totally see why Kate wouldn't have wanted back on that island. If Claire (or fate or whatever) left Aaron in her charge, the last thing she'd want to do as a sane person would be to take him back there and she obviously couldn't just leave him behind if they headed back for good. Or if Jack's plan revolves around them only going back for awhile, Kate probably would still refuse at the thought of potentially abandoning Aaron if she were to die.

Or something. Just throwing it out there. : )


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

zordude said:


> Island Kate is hotter than Courtroom Kate.
> 
> Z


Yeah, but Courtroom Kate isn't wearing the same clothes that she had on for the last three months.


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> And here's something - why the hell isn't she pregnant??... Juliete said that guys are walking around basically with super sperm, and the chances of conception were huge... shouldn't Kate be pregnant? Is that significant?...


You're assuming that 1) Kate and Sawyer had sex during a time that she was _user-friendly_ for conception!  or 2) she doesn't have infertility problems of her own.



> The judge had a weird name: Arthur Galzethron (his name plaque actually said "Honorable Arthur Galzethron").. I used to have an anagram tool, but I can't find it.. Looks suspicious though.


Might be. I had started playing around with this but got side-tracked. [using just his name - no title] Thought I had something developing with "hear no truth", but that is NOT correct - 5 unmanageable letters remain. 



> ...And he says the plane crash landed on the island, by the way! He's completely contradicting the news reports of the underwater plane...


Oddly, he references both!? Jack does say in his first repsonse, "crashed on an island in the South Pacific"... then, in reponse to a different question he says "only 8 of us survived the crash - we landed in the water...". He is contradicting _himself_ or was his first answer just a casual choice of words?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Ana Lucia, Bernard, and Libby landed in water and managed to make it to the Island.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Ana Lucia, Bernard, and Libby landed in water and managed to make it to the Island.


...and it would not be illogical for them to say "We crashed on an island"...


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> Even though it's obviously Claire's Aaron...


I still don't buy that it's "obvious"....this could still even be Jack and Kate's baby. Both my wife and I have brown hair. Our now 24-year-old son has brown hair...but up until he was around five or six, his hair was blondish.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> I still don't buy that it's "obvious"....this could still even be Jack and Kate's baby. Both my wife and I have brown hair. Our now 24-year-old son has brown hair...but up until he was around five or six, his hair was blondish.


It's "obvious" in the same way that it's "obvious" that two naked Asians in bed together had sex.

Trust me. It's Claire's Aaron.


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## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

I agree that is Claire's baby. I am not sure if Kate is passing it off as her own biological, or if she adopted him. Either way she would call him hers. I also figured the baby was Aaron, and based it off the scene where Kate and Claire were doing laundry. Not 100&#37; sold on the baby being counted among the Oceanic Six, most likely is, but the writers may be tossing us for a loop on that one.
Ben got off, but perhaps secretly. Perhaps Miles code speak, if it was code speak, was a reference to getting him off the island. Anyhow, I doubt the public at large knows Ben got off the island. I agree that they probably transfered them to another island, and that the +2 may have died during that transfer to that island.
I also noticed the "cement" wall shake when Locke tossed the plate against it. I am surprised they didn't call for a quick reshoot of that scene when it hit editing and they had to see it, it was obvious even watching it on ABC's Internet video player (no cable so we have to wait until ABC posts it on Friday to watch it...yeah could download it via Torrent, but why if it is just as easy via the network's website and lessen one's legal exposure).
Jack and company shouldn't be overly concerned about the delay of the helicopter getting to the boat. They were at the helicopter when the rocket came in 30 minutes late, perhaps the time effect going the other way is longer.
EDIT TO ADD: Perhaps part of the large settlement they got is for people lying about the plane's crash location since they said it crashed in the Indian, but the survivors were on a South Pacific island.
EDIT 2: Also, Desmond said he saw Claire and Aaron leaving the island on a helicopter, so perhaps she does get off.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Maybe Claire and Aaron got on the helicopter like Desmond saw but then she was killed on the ship, or didn't make it to the ship alive. 

Why was Kate so opposed to bringing Aaron to court, and how would his being there help her? Just the fact that she saved a baby who they may or may not have thought was her own? 

Why would Jack even suggest that Kate go back to the island, knowing that she has Aaron? Unless Aaron is the one who needs to go back the worst. I think it's very possible that Aaron is "special" as Walt was before he ever went to the island. It would seem that Jack was opposed to Kate adopting Aaron all along, from his attitude. Maybe Aaron knows that and doesn't like Jack. 

When I rewatched the scene with Daniel and the cards, It seemed like he's staring at them, she says "time," and then he tries to remember them. I never saw her flip them over. It looked like they were face down the whole time. I still don't get what he was testing.


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> When I rewatched the scene with Daniel and the cards, It seemed like he's staring at them, she says "time," and then he tries to remember them. I never saw her flip them over. It looked like they were face down the whole time. I still don't get what he was testing.


I took that as an indication that the Not Penny's Boat people believe the island holds special powers. It's been demonstrated that the Island certainly has healing powers, so perhaps the NPB people think it gives folks enhanced mental powers as well?

As to what mental powers, you've got me. Memory? ESP? I dunno...


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Ability to win at 3 card monte?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Maybe Claire and Aaron got on the helicopter like Desmond saw but then she was killed on the ship, or didn't make it to the ship alive.
> 
> Why was Kate so opposed to bringing Aaron to court, and how would his being there help her? Just the fact that she saved a baby who they may or may not have thought was her own?
> 
> Why would Jack even suggest that Kate go back to the island, knowing that she has Aaron? Unless Aaron is the one who needs to go back the worst. I think it's very possible that Aaron is "special" as Walt was before he ever went to the island. It would seem that Jack was opposed to Kate adopting Aaron all along, from his attitude. Maybe Aaron knows that and doesn't like Jack.


Kate doesn't want anyone who doesn't know the true story see Aaron. She's fine with Jack, but no one else it seems. Jack hits on her after the trial like she's just the babysitter, temporarily with Aaron. I think this is all because Claire is still alive. If Kate truly accepted Aaron as her own, then she would have used him as a trial ornament and let her mother meet him.

I think each one of the O6 was picked to leave for pressure (or extortion) purposes, or possibly for skills. Aside from a purely accidental departure (or obviously, Claire's death), there isn't any reason to separate Claire and Aaron. Jack didn't want to face up to it in this episode but Kate did. (Ironically, in the S3 finale it was Jack facing up to what they did and Kate who didn't want to.)


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

Philly Bill said:


> > Originally Posted by zordude
> > Island Kate is hotter than Courtroom Kate.
> 
> 
> Yeah, but Courtroom Kate isn't wearing the same clothes that she had on for the last three months.


Kinda like on survivor, when the chicks are really hot, and then they are not so hot on the reunion show


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I believe 30 minutes (31?) was the difference between the clocks or timers, presumably synchronized at the start -- one in the payload and the other with Faraday. The actual time it took for the 30 second trip was longer. Someone had earlier tried to put to gether a timeline of other events surrounding the test (like Juliet going to get Sayid) and it was on the order of2 hours or more. So, if a 30 second "trip" takes 2 hours of Island time, that's a 240x multiplier. A 20 minute helicopter ride could be "expanded" to appear to take longer more 3 days. 

So if we assume that getting to or away from the Island you go through some kind of time gradient, it is not inconceivable that the helicopter is not lost, but simply still in transit.

Of course none of this explains how a satellite phone transmission (I am assuming it's a satellite phone) by-passes this time gradient (perhaps because the signal goes up and then down, and the time gradient is at sea level?), or why Regina "observed" the payload delivered in "real time" while Faraday experienced a delay (again, she didn't actually observe, but was relying on information delivered by signal transmission).

This isn't your ordinary, garden-variety time travel stuff. I sure hope I can understand it all when they (eventually) explain it all.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Has anyone else noticed how quickly people are moving around the island? Maybe off in my timing, but it seems like what used to take a couple days now is done in a few hours. 

Is there a spacial flux on the island that once you have been to a place it then becomes just a couple hours away at all times? (j/k)


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

scheckeNYK said:


> I don't recall if they revealed the sex of the person whose funeral it was. Possible to be Claire?


They didn't imply that it was a man. The headline said "Los Angeles Man found dead in downtown loft." Part of the name is visible but I guess it's possible that they did not intend for it to be. What we can see of it is "J~ ~ntham", so it's either someone we haven't met yet or an alias that is known to at least Jack and Kate (or they didn't intend for us to be able to make out any letters in the clipping, which I doubt).


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> When I rewatched the scene with Daniel and the cards, It seemed like he's staring at them, she says "time," and then he tries to remember them. I never saw her flip them over. It looked like they were face down the whole time. I still don't get what he was testing.


He's clearly having memory problems. There were only 3 cards and he couldn't memorize all of them. One of them said something like "2 out of 3" and the other said something like "3 cards" in sort of a frustrated tone implying "_only_ 3 cards."


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

betts4 said:


> Has anyone else noticed how quickly people are moving around the island? Maybe off in my timing, but it seems like what used to take a couple days now is done in a few hours.
> 
> Is there a spacial flux on the island that once you have been to a place it then becomes just a couple hours away at all times? (j/k)


I mentioned that to my wife. For days they didn't see anything but trees, but now they can just get to the others village quickly. BUT, remember when they showed the other village as the plan was breaking up over head, Ethan and the other guy were able to run to the crash sites pretty quickly. So assuming you know where you are going, it is a much smaller island then wandering around aimlessly would lead you to think.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> Well at least it's pretty clear why Kate doesn't want to go back now. She doesn't want to lose Arron to Claire.


Perhaps not _to_ Claire, but I agree that Aaron is the main reason for her. Early on, Jack didn't want to go back either (in the season premiere flash-forward with Hurley) so the same reason(s) could also be an additional factor(s) for Kate as well. Perhaps Claire is dead but if people are alive and going back means rescuing them then it might just be a matter of keeping the secret that Aaron isn't actually Kate's son. Then again, she didn't actually try to talk Jack out of going back, IIRC, she just walked away when Jack tried to talk her into going.

Also, if people _are_ alive, they must feel pretty confident that the rest of them will not be coming back. We still don't know exactly when the O-6 get off, but we know that within 100 days or so they were very close, and definitely made it within a couple of years, tops. Given Jack's perjury and the whole lie they're perpetrating, they don't seem to be worried that the rest will find their own way back any time soon, if ever.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

stevieleej said:


> Kate seems almost obsessed with Aaron. She was didn't dare go with Jack at the airport since "he" would know - almost like she would get in trouble.


Are you referring to "Through The Looking Glass"? If so, I think you're misremembering that. She just said that she had to get back, "he'll be wondering where I am." And even that is assuming that she was still referring to Aaron, but I think that's highly likely. I wouldn't consider wanting to get home to your child whom you left (presumably with the nanny, but still) in the middle of the night "obsession." Although I'd agree that in other ways she does seem to be.



stevieleej said:


> Claire was suppose to raise Aaron but now she's not. Is it possible that now Jacob was able to leave the island by possessing Aaron? That would allow him to be closer to Ben (who is now off the island).


We don't really know that because Richard Malkin later claimed to be a fraud of a psychic. Of course, he could have been lying at that point to ensure that Eko got on the plane, but either way it raises significant doubt about whether someone else raising Aaron will have the grave consequences that he talked about. I tend to think that he really isn't a fraud because I haven't thought of or seen a sensible explanation as to why he was so insistent that Claire had to take flight 815 specifically.

However, if Claire told Kate about what Malkin had said and she believes it, perhaps that's why she's so obsessed with Aaron. She could be fearful that Malkin's predictions will come true and because of that is very protective of him.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Regarding the federal/state court inconsistencies, I've been wondering all along why the Feds would have been involved in the first place. At first I figured that maybe U.S. Marshals would be involved with any fugitive who flees the U.S., but in "What Kate Did", Edwards Mars arrests Kate shortly after she blew up the house and was buying a bus ticket, presumably before she had left the state in the first place. The bank robbery would have gotten the feds involved, but I don't recall whether that was even in the list of charges.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Ok - two more quick notes (I was out of town and didn't see this until last night):

Claire seems to have gotten over Charlie pretty quickly. At least, she didn't seem to be in mourning in this episode. It seems like forever to us, but it's only been about 2 or 3 days.

It seems that there must be some specific reason that they are claiming that the plane crashed _in the water_. Normally if you're making up a lie, you want to change as little of the truth as possible, only what's absolutely necessary. I'm wondering if perhaps they come to learn why they were able to survive the crash in the first place and decide to claim that they landed in the water, which would seem to make their survival a little more credible, because the truth (possibly having to do with the island's magical powers) would be too hard for the general public to believe. It's not like Jack couldn't have made Kate out to be a hero if the plane had landed on the beach.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

They had already faked the crash in the water before the Losties were "found." So at that point, they were stuck with the original story, which they embellished to say that some of the Losties survived the crash and made their way to land.


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## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

aside from the Dharma group, and the Oceanic group... There has to be another group.. The group that Ben bumped in to when he was still rather young. The group with that creepy guy that doesn't age... That assisted in recruiting Julliette many years later.

I believe this is the organization that Ben truly "works" for. And I'd imagine that they do have money. 

With all the fighting between Ben (through Sayid) in that flash forward with Sayid being an assassin, it's obvious that there are multiple groups/organizations off the island that have agendas here.

If that's the case. Miles may be working for this other company which wants Ben dead.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> They had already faked the crash in the water before the Losties were "found." So at that point, they were stuck with the original story, which they embellished to say that some of the Losties survived the crash and made their way to land.


If that's a response to my post about why they are claiming to have crashed in the water, I don't understand. Are you referring to the faked crash that Anthony Cooper and Naomi had told them about, and that we learned about in "Confirmed Dead"? I must be totally missing something if there's any way that the O-6's return doesn't reveal that to be a complete fraud. Jack said the island was in the South Pacific, so they certainly didn't get there from the plane in the news reports.

Sorry if I'm just missing something. I know that happens...


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

ducker said:


> aside from the Dharma group, and the Oceanic group... There has to be another group.. The group that Ben bumped in to when he was still rather young. The group with that creepy guy that doesn't age... That assisted in recruiting Julliette many years later.
> 
> I believe this is the organization that Ben truly "works" for. And I'd imagine that they do have money.
> 
> ...


Well we know that "The Others" are really more related to "The Hostiles" (the group you are referring to) than Dharma. Remember, they and Ben killed off most of the Dharma people in the purge.

Yeah, I think they made that pretty clear about Miles, although he obviously isn't very loyal to them. Or, he is Ben's "man on the boat" and isn't very loyal to Ben. I think the former is more likely, however. Although I don't remember Miles saying that the person(s) he worked for wanted Ben dead, or just wanted Ben.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> If that's a response to my post about why they are claiming to have crashed in the water, I don't understand. Are you referring to the faked crash that Anthony Cooper and Naomi had told them about, and that we learned about in "Confirmed Dead"? I must be totally missing something if there's any way that the O-6's return doesn't reveal that to be a complete fraud. Jack said the island was in the South Pacific, so they certainly didn't get there from the plane in the news reports.
> 
> Sorry if I'm just missing something. I know that happens...


Well, there's been no indication in the show that the original faked crash has been debunked in any way. Jack may have forgotten his story when he testified (we haven't seen the possible consequences of that yet), and you have to remember that the Indian Ocean and the South Pacific aren't separate bodies of water with a discrete boundary; there's a pretty vast area that could reasonably be considered either.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Big Behr said:


> Regarding the $3.2 million--the have mentioned a few times the importance of flying the helicopter on a bearing of 325 degrees. Are there other references to 32 or 32xxx anywhere else?


3.2 million would be 3,200,000 - 3 followed by 2 followed by 5 zeros. Just a thought. Maybe some sort of code, who knows. But I'm skeptical of such things even when I think of them myself. Maybe Miles needs that amount for something and Ben was just wondering why he didn't throw out a more round number like 3 million or 4 million.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, there's been no indication in the show that the original faked crash has been debunked in any way. Jack may have forgotten his story when he testified (we haven't seen the possible consequences of that yet), and you have to remember that the Indian Ocean and the South Pacific aren't separate bodies of water with a discrete boundary; there's a pretty vast area that could reasonably be considered either.


I know we haven't seen it yet, but I can't imagine how it wouldn't be. They did say that 324 passengers were found, not 316. The Sunda Trench is not only well within what is considered the Indian Ocean, but they also said that the plane was found in a four-mile deep trench; I can't imagine that would have been within swimming distance of any island.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Kate's Mom was only a witness to the murder/arson charge, but wasn't there a whole list of other charges, like when she robbed the bank and ran from the marshall? When did she serve time? It seemed like she'd been free since she got back, which would've been a while judging by Aaron's size.(maybe you can't judge by that). Lawyers anywhere? Is this realistic?


We saw a hearing early in this episode where she was deemed a flight risk and remanded to custody for the duration of the trial. So depending on the length of the trial and the time it took between the hearing and trial, she may have been in custody for a while.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I know we haven't seen it yet, but I can't imagine how it wouldn't be. They did say that 324 passengers were found, not 316. The Sunda Trench is not only well within what is considered the Indian Ocean, but they also said that the plane was found in a four-mile deep trench; I can't imagine that would have been within swimming distance of any island.


They didn't say that passengers were found. They said that since the plane was found, the passengers were presumed dead. I'm pretty sure that the only body they found was the pilot they could see through the cockpit window.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> They didn't say that passengers were found. They said that since the plane was found, the passengers were presumed dead. I'm pretty sure that the only body they found was the pilot they could see through the cockpit window.


No, they said during the news reports (specifically the one Miles was listening to on the radio) that all 324 passengers were confirmed dead, not presumed dead. While I can see that they would say that without _identifying_ the bodies (which obviously they didn't, at least not correctly), they couldn't have confirmed that without at least _counting_ them. True, they only showed the pilot's but perhaps that was simply because it was easiest to get a picture of through the cockpit windshield.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> Kate's Mom was only a witness to the murder/arson charge, but wasn't there a whole list of other charges, like when she robbed the bank and ran from the marshall? When did she serve time? It seemed like she'd been free since she got back, which would've been a while judging by Aaron's size.(maybe you can't judge by that). Lawyers anywhere? Is this realistic?


Yeah, not to mention when her ex-boyfriend got shot and killed when she was driving the car from the hospital parking garage. They wouldn't have needed her mom as a witness for that or the other stuff you mentioned. But that apparently wasn't included in the charges because it wouldn't have been first degree murder. Even with all of the legal technicality errors, I'm pretty sure that the first degree murder charge had to be about her father, and only her father.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> No, they said during the news reports (specifically the one Miles was listening to on the radio) that all 324 passengers were confirmed dead, not presumed dead. While I can see that they would say that without _identifying_ the bodies (which obviously they didn't, at least not correctly), they couldn't have confirmed that without at least _counting_ them. True, they only showed the pilot's but perhaps that was simply because it was easiest to get a picture of through the cockpit windshield.


I think the "confirmed dead" language was not because they saw or identified any bodies, but because they found the plane fuselage intact on the bottom of the ocean, and no survivors had turned up in the meantime. It becomes a pretty safe assumption at that point.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think the "confirmed dead" language was not because they saw or identified any bodies, but because they found the plane fuselage intact on the bottom of the ocean, and no survivors had turned up in the meantime. It becomes a pretty safe assumption at that point.


There's a big difference between confirming and assuming. Namely, dead bodies. It was _already_ a pretty safe assumption when the plane had been missing for a few weeks or months and no survivors had turned up.

Aside from the plain meaning of the word, the supposed wreckage was found thousands of miles from the South Pacific and four miles deep in the ocean, which would mean it was nowhere near land. I can't conceive of any scenario where the mere return of Jack, Kate, etc. doesn't conclusively prove the news reports to have been false, if not an outright fraud.


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## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> They didn't say that passengers were found. They said that since the plane was found, the passengers were presumed dead. I'm pretty sure that the only body they found was the pilot they could see through the cockpit window.


But didn't the pilot survive and appear in early episodes on the island in the part of the plane that landed in a tree. He was quickly eaten by a monster of some sort.

Barbeedoll


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## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Maybe Claire and Aaron got on the helicopter like Desmond saw but then she was killed on the ship, or didn't make it to the ship alive.
> 
> Why was Kate so opposed to bringing Aaron to court, and how would his being there help her? Just the fact that she saved a baby who they may or may not have thought was her own?
> 
> ...


Maybe it's just a wild hair idea, but I'm not sure that everyone knows that Kate has this child. Her attorney, the nanny, and Jack know, and her Mother found out - but apparently just recently. Perhaps the reason Kate didn't want him in court is that she knows people are looking for him and she is trying to protect him by not letting people know she has him.

We don't know for sure that he is one of the Oceanic survivors we are counting, or that he arrived back from the island accompanying the survivors who were discovered. He could have come back with Ben or any one if a number of ways undetected. Perhaps Sayid is killing people who are after Aaron, which allows him to justify his actions.

Just some thoughts.

Barbeedoll


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

barbeedoll said:


> But didn't the pilot survive and appear in early episodes on the island in the part of the plane that landed in a tree. He was quickly eaten by a monster of some sort.
> 
> Barbeedoll


That was in reference to the _supposed_ passengers on the wreckage at the bottom of a trench in the Indian Ocean that we saw in news reports in "Confirmed Dead."


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> There's a big difference between confirming and assuming. Namely, dead bodies. It was _already_ a pretty safe assumption when the plane had been missing for a few weeks or months and no survivors had turned up.
> 
> Aside from the plain meaning of the word, the supposed wreckage was found thousands of miles from the South Pacific and four miles deep in the ocean, which would mean it was nowhere near land. I can't conceive of any scenario where the mere return of Jack, Kate, etc. doesn't conclusively prove the news reports to have been false, if not an outright fraud.


With a pretty high consequence.. there's a dead body in the cockpit that we see.. Someone staging a fake crash at the very least stole one dead body, and at worst killed a whole bunch of people..

This is very interesting.. If people were telling Jack/Kate/O6 what to say, why would they possibly tell them to say they were found anywhere other than near where they faked a plane crash? (unless there's a convincing story about some strong currents that would bring you from Bali, on the East of Australia, to the South Pacific, West of Autstralia).. Hell, they _faked an airplane crash_ - they put a lot of time into this.. There's no way their official story would be so wrong.

So, maybe the O6 made up their own lie about it? Maybe once they said that lie, it was too late to change it, and they had to stick with it? Maybe someone other than the group that faked the plane crash told them to say it was the South Pacific?

Or, maybe the underwater airplane isn't staged, but the remnants of a destructive copy-and-leave-behind-a-corpse teleport/shift of the plane, like I suggested previously.  Jack/Kate/O6 tell the truth about where their island was (South Pacific, not Indian Ocean), and just lie about who made it off (maybe on their own!).. and lots of people in the Lost universe are left to wonder "WTF?" about the Indian/SouthPacific discrepancy).


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> With a pretty high consequence.. there's a dead body in the cockpit that we see.. Someone staging a fake crash at the very least stole one dead body, and at worst killed a whole bunch of people..
> 
> This is very interesting.. If people were telling Jack/Kate/O6 what to say, why would they possibly tell them to say they were found anywhere other than near where they faked a plane crash? (unless there's a convincing story about some strong currents that would bring you from Bali, on the East of Australia, to the South Pacific, West of Autstralia).. Hell, they _faked an airplane crash_ - they put a lot of time into this.. There's no way their official story would be so wrong.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think that's possible. I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions about the Six being more or less coerced into lying about what happened. I'm not convinced one way or the other, because I think lots of possibilities are plausible, but I've been leaning toward "the big secret" being some sort of moral quandary they faced where they had to leave their friends behind in order to save themselves. Something they're ashamed of in hindsight but at the time they were able to convince themselves that they had no choice.

As for the plane - I'm not saying that there actually were 324 bodies on the plane, just that that is what "confirmed" means. If everyone who would have seen the bodies was in on the staging, then just the supposed body of the pilot would have been sufficient.

But it certainly does raise a lot of questions that we don't even have hints to the answers to. It appears based on what we know that the O-6 aren't sticking to anyone's official crash story. If they were, I can't even speculate as to how they can reconcile the locations. I think the simple explanation like a big conspiracy theory being exposed it a little too obvious, but at this point I can't see the news stories we saw in "Confirmed Dead" not being proven at least false, if not intentional lies.

As for the time-shifting teleporting stuff... if you concede that something along those lines is possible, then _anything_ along those lines is possible.

As for getting the story wrong, perhaps "they" just didn't count on the real one (or the people from it) turning up. But there's just SO much we don't know.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jeff125va said:


> Regarding the federal/state court inconsistencies, I've been wondering all along why the Feds would have been involved in the first place. At first I figured that maybe U.S. Marshals would be involved with any fugitive who flees the U.S., but in "What Kate Did", Edwards Mars arrests Kate shortly after she blew up the house and was buying a bus ticket, presumably before she had left the state in the first place. The bank robbery would have gotten the feds involved, but I don't recall whether that was even in the list of charges.


Arson is a federal crime.

And you're right. The US Marshals have jurisdiction over fugitives.

As for the charges described in court in this episode, I don't think it did include bank robbery. It did include fraud, and I was trying to remember what that would have been. Anyone?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

mqpickles said:


> Arson is a federal crime.
> 
> And you're right. The US Marshals have jurisdiction over fugitives.
> 
> As for the charges described in court in this episode, I don't think it did include bank robbery. It did include fraud, and I was trying to remember what that would have been. Anyone?


I assumed that it had to do with her taking out the insurance policy on the house with the intent of blowing it up (insurance fraud). I wouldn't have thought of that as fraud in the usual sense, but I'm pretty sure that's it.

I know you're correct about arson, but is it the arson per se, or does it have to involve doing it for profit via insurance (since the insurance company could be from another state)? In other words, if she had simply blown up the house to kill her dad and not taken out the insurance policy for her mom, would it have been a federal crime? Just curious. I can't imagine on what basis it would be a federal crime otherwise.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Could fraud also relate to living under a false identity? She apparently came up with the paperwork to get married to that one cop guy under a fake name.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

unicorngoddess said:


> Could fraud also relate to living under a false identity? She apparently came up with the paperwork to get married to that one cop guy under a fake name.


I don't think that's it. She obviously forged some documents or something to get a marriage license and whatever else, but it's not like she defrauded him in a criminal sense. There would have been some specific criminal acts involved but I don't think the broad charge of "fraud" had to do with that. That whole thing seems pretty minor in relation to the murder and the charges stemming from that.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> Arson is a federal crime.
> 
> And you're right. The US Marshals have jurisdiction over fugitives.
> 
> As for the charges described in court in this episode, I don't think it did include bank robbery. It did include fraud, and I was trying to remember what that would have been. Anyone?


I wonder if maybe she wasn't charged with bank robbery because she didn't actually rob anything. Can't remember exactly, but didn't she just "break in" to get the airplane model, which may have been hers anyway?

Isn't arson a state crime as well?

Congrats on the upcoming YAMM!


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I wonder if maybe she wasn't charged with bank robbery because she didn't actually rob anything. Can't remember exactly, but didn't she just "break in" to get the airplane model, which may have been hers anyway?
> 
> Isn't arson a state crime as well?
> 
> Congrats on the upcoming YAMM!


I guess that's assuming that she owned the safe deposit box but couldn't just go open it because it would have alerted the authorities? Hmmm, well, it wouldn't have been hard to make an argument that the other 3 guys wanted to steal money from the bank and at least charge her with _attempted_ robbery (as an accomplice). Or the bank robbery statute might be written in such a way that the fact that she owns it but still tried to take its contents by force still broke the law. My guess is the writers just forgot about it.

Perhaps arson can be a state crime or federal. I can't imagine the feds having authority simply someone burns his neighbor's house down.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

As for the supposed faked plane crash, who's to say the faked crash is even real? They didn't have to actually crash a plane and kill a bunch of people, all they had to do is CGI up some fake footage from the bottom of the ocean, including the initial "find". Sure, the media will want to be on-site during the exploration of the wreckage, but how many of them are actually going to dive down to the bottom of the ocean and see for themselves? No, they will just trust the footage they are being shown from the deck of the boat, which could also easliy be fake footage being passed off as the real thing.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jking said:


> As for the supposed faked plane crash, who's to say the faked crash is even real? They didn't have to actually crash a plane and kill a bunch of people, all they had to do is CGI up some fake footage from the bottom of the ocean, including the initial "find". Sure, the media will want to be on-site during the exploration of the wreckage, but how many of them are actually going to dive down to the bottom of the ocean and see for themselves? No, they will just trust the footage they are being shown from the deck of the boat, which could also easliy be fake footage being passed off as the real thing.


That's certainly possible, but I can't see them using that sort of literary technique. We've had some unreliable narratives before, e.g. Ben saying he'd been born on the island, but what you're suggesting sounds like a way of explaining away a mistake. You never know I guess.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jking said:


> As for the supposed faked plane crash, who's to say the faked crash is even real? They didn't have to actually crash a plane and kill a bunch of people, all they had to do is CGI up some fake footage from the bottom of the ocean, including the initial "find". Sure, the media will want to be on-site during the exploration of the wreckage, but how many of them are actually going to dive down to the bottom of the ocean and see for themselves? No, they will just trust the footage they are being shown from the deck of the boat, which could also easliy be fake footage being passed off as the real thing.





jeff125va said:


> That's certainly possible, but I can't see them using that sort of literary technique. We've had some unreliable narratives before, e.g. Ben saying he'd been born on the island, but what you're suggesting sounds like a way of explaining away a mistake. You never know I guess.


Eh, I dunno.. They were very careful to not show us divers at the bottom of the sea, but rather televised footage coming from robotic divers.. By going out to the news reporter, they certainly did insulate themselves enough if it turns out the footage is fake.

I feel silly (and I detest most uses of the word silly) for not having thought about that before. Good point, jking.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Eh, I dunno.. They were very careful to not show us divers at the bottom of the sea, but rather televised footage coming from robotic divers.. By going out to the news reporter, they certainly did insulate themselves enough if it turns out the footage is fake.
> 
> I feel silly (and I detest most uses of the word silly) for not having thought about that before. Good point, jking.


I was definitely overthinking this earlier. If it turns out someone staged it, it doesn't really matter _how_. The only real difference is how difficult it would have been. As far as the storytelling goes, I take back what I said earlier. For some reason I was thinking that we'd be finding out that something we thought happened simply did not happen at all. In reality, it would only be confirmation of what seems to be the most likely possibility (that it was faked _somehow_), but with a twist.

I agree, good point.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

It's only Tuesday, eh? Grrr.. I'm not gonna be able to handle when we run out of episodes because of the strike.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Was that TV footage at the beginning of that episode? Was there a reporter talking over it?I thought we were seeing a flashback of the divers who found the plane, and that TV reports showing it came later, as part of the pilot's flashback.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I wonder if maybe she wasn't charged with bank robbery because she didn't actually rob anything. Can't remember exactly, but didn't she just "break in" to get the airplane model, which may have been hers anyway?
> 
> Isn't arson a state crime as well?
> 
> Congrats on the upcoming YAMM!


Thanks!

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=385871


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## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> I assumed that it had to do with her taking out the insurance policy on the house with the intent of blowing it up (insurance fraud). I wouldn't have thought of that as fraud in the usual sense, but I'm pretty sure that's it.
> 
> I know you're correct about arson, but is it the arson per se, or does it have to involve doing it for profit via insurance (since the insurance company could be from another state)? In other words, if she had simply blown up the house to kill her dad and not taken out the insurance policy for her mom, would it have been a federal crime? Just curious. I can't imagine on what basis it would be a federal crime otherwise.


Probably a smeek, but she became a Federal problem when xhe crossed state lines to avoid prosecution


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jeff125va said:


> I guess that's assuming that she owned the safe deposit box but couldn't just go open it because it would have alerted the authorities? Hmmm, well, it wouldn't have been hard to make an argument that the other 3 guys wanted to steal money from the bank and at least charge her with _attempted_ robbery (as an accomplice). Or the bank robbery statute might be written in such a way that the fact that she owns it but still tried to take its contents by force still broke the law. My guess is the writers just forgot about it.
> 
> Perhaps arson can be a state crime or federal. I can't imagine the feds having authority simply someone burns his neighbor's house down.


You know, you're right. I looked it up. The Supreme Court held in 2000 (after my stint in federal court) that the federal arson statute can't constitutionally apply to burning an owner-occupied residence because it doesn't affect interstate commerce. Now, if daddy rented that house (or was it a mobile home?), then maybe.

I'm not sure about the bank robbery statute, but I would guess that if you decided to make a withdrawal from your own account at gunpoint, the feds could come up with something.

"We now return to regularly scheduled programming."


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> Was that TV footage at the beginning of that episode? Was there a reporter talking over it?I thought we were seeing a flashback of the divers who found the plane, and that TV reports showing it came later, as part of the pilot's flashback.


IIRC, the episode started with the raw footage from the robotic subs, but after they found the plane, it was seamlessly spliced into a TV news report. So we don't know how much of the footage was shown on the news.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> IIRC, the episode started with the raw footage from the robotic subs, but after they found the plane, it was seamlessly spliced into a TV news report. So we don't know how much of the footage was shown on the news.


If the producers showed us the raw footage of them finding the plane, I'm inclined to believe that they actually found the plane, and that the footage is real.

If they showed us only the footage as used on TV, I could see them coming back and saying the footage was fake. But we saw them find the plane. That had to have happened.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

aindik said:


> If the producers showed us the raw footage of them finding the plane, I'm inclined to believe that they actually found the plane, and that the footage is real.
> 
> If they showed us only the footage as used on TV, I could see them coming back and saying the footage was fake. But we saw them find the plane. That had to have happened.


So how do you account for the fact that they found a WHOLE plane?

In the very first episode, we saw the tail break off, not to mention the talk of the "tailies". When we saw the footage, the plane was complete, tail and all, therefore it had to be a fake - or everything else we've seen is fake!


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

TonyTheTiger said:


> So how do you account for the fact that they found a WHOLE plane?
> 
> In the very first episode, we saw the tail break off, not to mention the talk of the "tailies". When we saw the footage, the plane was complete, tail and all, therefore it had to be a fake - or everything else we've seen is fake!


I guess it depends what aindik meant by "the plane." "The plane" that Jack et. al. were on (Flight 815) or "the plane" (any actual physical airplane) that was staged and purported to be the wreckage of flight 815.

If the former, then it's a pandora's box of supernatural explanations. If the latter, then I agree with aindik. I don't rule out the cgi possibility entirely, but I think it's unlikely. I think that "Confirmed Dead" began like DevDog said.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

mqpickles said:


> You know, you're right. I looked it up. The Supreme Court held in 2000 (after my stint in federal court) that the federal arson statute can't constitutionally apply to burning an owner-occupied residence because it doesn't affect interstate commerce. Now, if daddy rented that house (or was it a mobile home?), then maybe.
> 
> I'm not sure about the bank robbery statute, but I would guess that if you decided to make a withdrawal from your own account at gunpoint, the feds could come up with something.
> 
> "We now return to regularly scheduled programming."


I'll refrain from making comments about the arbitrariness of their rulings on what constitutes interstate commerce. But anyway... I wonder if the insurance fraud element could make it applicable since the insurance company could be in another state. I think it was a house. Her mom (or her mom and Wayne jointly) must have owned the house, otherwise the insurance wouldn't have been of any use. Actually, don't all lenders require insurance? Maybe she (or they) owned it free and clear?

And yeah, I can't imagine that the fact what she took from the bank happened to belong to her would get her out of trouble. That's sorta like Ashley Judd being allowed to kill her husband because she was already convicted of his (faked) murder.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

rondotcom said:


> Probably a smeek, but she became a Federal problem when xhe crossed state lines to avoid prosecution


Actually, you may be right. Earlier I said that it was unclear whether she had crossed state lines when Mars arrested her at the bus/train station trying to get a ticket to Tallahassee. But as he was driving her to the arraignment (when they crashed to avoid the horse) he said something about the "jury back in Iowa" so by that phrasing, it seems that she had.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I think they found *A* plane. It obviously wasn't 815. But the people that discovered it seemed genuinely shocked to see it down there. And I assumed that they used radar, sonar or whatever they use to see things on the ocean floor to know that there was something there and sent the robots to film it. I know the faked footage is a bit easier to believe than an elaborate staging of a plane crash, but it depends on who did it. But I do believe there was something there on the ocean floor. 

Maybe it was a *future* plane crash that hasn't even happen yet...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

unicorngoddess said:


> I think they found *A* plane. It obviously wasn't 815. But the people that discovered it seemed genuinely shocked to see it down there.


I don't think the people who found it were in on it...it was planted where they WOULD find it (which might explain why it was so far out of the way...there were no expeditions scheduled at a more reasonable crash localtion).


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> IIRC, the episode started with the raw footage from the robotic subs, but after they found the plane, it was seamlessly spliced into a TV news report. So we don't know how much of the footage was shown on the news.


As Jeff said earlier, it really doesn't matter how the crash was faked (CGI or actual), only IF it was faked or some type of weird space/time fluke. I would tend to lean on the side of a faked crash, if only for the fact that the plane at the bottom of the ocean containes the remains of someone who was not the pilot of 815 (because of the lack of the wedding ring)... of course, if we're talking about a space/time conundrum, it's possible the dead pilot at the bottom of the ocean is the body of the original surfer-dude pilot who is now on the island with the losties.

As for the method of the faking, if it WAS faked, it's probably one of those Lost questions that will never be answered, as it really doesn't have any bearing on the overall mystery.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jking said:


> As for the method of the faking, if it WAS faked, it's probably one of those Lost questions that will never be answered, as it really doesn't have any bearing on the overall mystery.


I suspect it has considerable bearing on what's happening off the island in the current season and forward...


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think the people who found it were in on it...it was planted where they WOULD find it (which might explain why it was so far out of the way...there were no expeditions scheduled at a more reasonable crash localtion).


I tend to agree. And if so, that would mean there were bodies inside. No way those divers didn't take a peek inside the passenger cabin windows as well.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect it has considerable bearing on what's happening off the island in the current season and forward...


Absolutely. That would be an enormous plot hole if left unanswered.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I am pretty sure it was not revealed in the show itself, but I read somewhere that the Christianne I was looking for the


Spoiler



"Black Rock


.

That has got to be significant, so why was it left out of the show?


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> Absolutely. That would be an enormous plot hole if left unanswered.


I agree that it's important to find out if the crash was faked and who faked it, but as far as the method in which it was faked, I don't really think that matters too much.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> That has got to be significant, so why was it left out of the show?


The show's not over...


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jking said:


> I agree that it's important to find out if the crash was faked and who faked it, but as far as the method in which it was faked, I don't really think that matters too much.


I don't think all the details need to be revealed, especially if turns out to be something we can easily speculate about now, e.g. a well-funded evil organization gets its hands on a plane and takes it out there. But I think they'll at least have to give us a general idea. But yes, the who and why are more important than the how.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

wprager said:


> I am pretty sure it was not revealed in the show itself, but I read somewhere that the Christianne I was looking for the
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


That information is from the Find 815 game.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

TonyTheTiger said:


> So how do you account for the fact that they found a WHOLE plane?
> 
> In the very first episode, we saw the tail break off, not to mention the talk of the "tailies". When we saw the footage, the plane was complete, tail and all, therefore it had to be a fake - or everything else we've seen is fake!


Oh, it wasn't _the_ plane. But it was real people finding a real plane in a real ocean somewhere. It wasn't fake footage, shot in a pool with actors or CGI'ed into existence.

IMO, the plane is fake (well, it's a real plane, but it's not Flight 815), but the footage of the people finding the fake plane is real.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

aindik said:


> IMO, the plane is fake (well, it's a real plane, but it's not Flight 815), but the footage of the people finding the fake plane is real.


I think the only conclusion we can draw so far is that a plane that did not crash on the island was found.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Let's forget about the plane for a minute...

My cousin just got started on LOST and came over last night to get my Season 2 set. We watched a few episodes and I realized something...are they EVER going to reveal what happened to Cindy and the kids??? Other than that quick shot towards the end of last season when we see Cindy in the Other's mobile camp. I wonder if they'll ever get back to that???


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> Let's forget about the plane for a minute...
> 
> My cousin just got started on LOST and came over last night to get my Season 2 set. We watched a few episodes and I realized something...are they EVER going to reveal what happened to Cindy and the kids??? Other than that quick shot towards the end of last season when we see Cindy in the Other's mobile camp. I wonder if they'll ever get back to that???


Oh, I'm pretty sure they'll tie that all in. It seems like a pretty big plot point.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> I wonder if they'll ever get back to that???


Just one of many.  I'm sure they will, they made it a point to show the swingsets last week.

Greg


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Yeah, they eventually have to get back to Richard (I don't mean his backstory, but that too) and the rest of The Others who fled the barracks. They could transition into the stuff about Cindy and the kids at some point after that.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

With all the talk of the plane wreckage, I think it's worthwhile to review this snippet from the Entertainment Weekly article previously mentioned in this thread (spoilerized for the extra sensitive):


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

betts4 said:


> Has anyone else noticed how quickly people are moving around the island? Maybe off in my timing, but it seems like what used to take a couple days now is done in a few hours.
> 
> Is there a spacial flux on the island that once you have been to a place it then becomes just a couple hours away at all times? (j/k)


It's the same flux they use on the show 24.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> With all the talk of the plane wreckage, I think it's worthwhile to review this snippet from the Entertainment Weekly article previously mentioned in this thread (spoilerized for the extra sensitive):





Spoiler



So it sounds like it is essentially what it appears to be (staged by a well-funded evil organization) but my guess is that one of the two possibilities will be truly evil and the other one not-so-evil, at least from the Losties' perspective. My guess is that one of them will be as some have speculated, connected to Charles Widmore or Dharma/Hanso or something we've heard of, and the other one something brand new. I'm just curious what the general public will know (or believe) about it. When the Oceanic Six turn up, they're certainly going to wonder...


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

There's also some interesting spoilery stuff on tonight's episode and possibly the season in today's USA Today interview with Henry Ian Cusick. Of course, spoilerized for your safety:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2008-02-27-cusick-lost-qna_N.htm



Spoiler



*Q: So is Desmond's episode tonight a flash-forward or flashback?*

A: It's, uh &#8230; to be honest, it's neither. It's more in line with those time-travel flashes before his eyes. A lot of people either love the time-travel element or hate it.

*Q: The last time we saw Desmond, he and Sayid were being taken by helicopter to the freighter, but it had been taking an unusually long time to arrive. What's up with that?*

A: There's a reason for that, and you'll find that out in this episode. And you'll find out why it's so difficult to get to the island.

*Q: With whom do we see Desmond interact?*

A: You will see (Desmond's love) Penny and her father, Charles Widmore. You will also see Desmond back in the military. And you'll also meet a whole new bunch of guys on the freighter, who have been a whole lot of fun to work with.

*Q: What was it like for you and Naveen Andrews (Sayid) working on that freighter out in the middle of the ocean?*

A: We filmed off Barber's Point (the west coast of Oahu) - about 10 to 15 minutes offshore. Once you're there, you're stuck on the boat, so we all had to find places to sleep and hide to be out of the shots. We had days and days being on that freighter and had a few night shoots as well. Because Naveen and I are both from the U.K., we had a lot of things to talk about - like characters from crappy old TV shows from our childhoods.

*Q: We are learning one by one who make up the Oceanic Six, so far revealed to be Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Kate and maybe (the show's not confirming) baby Aaron. Since Desmond was never on Flight 815, can we assume he does not turn out to be one of the six?*

A: That's what all of us were trying to figure out when we were receiving the scripts. I think it suddenly dawned on us that you had to be an original passenger on the plane that went down to be an Oceanic Six.

*Q: So tell us. Who is Ben's man on the freighter?*

A: You find out, but not for a few episodes.



I think the following Q/A (from above) will be the plot point I am most interested in for tonight:



Spoiler



*Q: The last time we saw Desmond, he and Sayid were being taken by helicopter to the freighter, but it had been taking an unusually long time to arrive. What's up with that?*

A: There's a reason for that, and you'll find that out in this episode. And you'll find out why it's so difficult to get to the island.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jlb said:


> I think the following Q/A (from above) will be the plot point I am most interested in for tonight:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm interested in that too. Although I don't really believe we'll find that out without also getting a lot more confused.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

MickeS said:


> I'm interested in that too. Although I don't really believe we'll find that out without also getting a lot more confused.


That almost goes without saying.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

I'm hoping Ben's man on the freighter will be named Gilligan.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Reading those spoilers, it really makes me geared up for tonight's episode. I'd already gone to ABC.com and viewed two "extended" trailers for tonight's ep, which didn't exactly reveal what the spoiler info is alluding to, but was still very interesting just the same. Just a heads up if you've never viewed the stuff on the ABC site, some of those trailers can be a tad spoiler-ish (not much, but enough) if you're trying to make sure you're completely surprised.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

TiVotion said:


> Reading those spoilers, it really makes me geared up for tonight's episode. ......


+1. That's why I posted the interview. Usually, I like to be totally surprised, but the amount of info (knowing that it may not ultimately answer anything tonight) provided by HIC has me very excited. I just hope I am not let down. LOL!


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> So it sounds like it is essentially what it appears to be (staged by a well-funded evil organization) but my guess is that one of the two possibilities will be truly evil and the other one not-so-evil, at least from the Losties' perspective. My guess is that one of them will be as some have speculated, connected to Charles Widmore or Dharma/Hanso or something we've heard of, and the other one something brand new. I'm just curious what the general public will know (or believe) about it. When the Oceanic Six turn up, they're certainly going to wonder...





Spoiler



I agree that one explanation will be that Hanso/Widmore/Dharma faked the wreckage and that there will be something new as the other. My speculation is the other possibility is that it is due to the natural phenomena of the island - an uncontrolled example of what Dharma was trying to conrol in the Orchid film


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that one explanation will be that Hanso/Widmore/Dharma faked the wreckage and that there will be something new as the other. My speculation is the other possibility is that it is due to the natural phenomena of the island - an uncontrolled example of what Dharma was trying to conrol in the Orchid film





Spoiler



do you mean that it actually IS flight 815? I'm not trying to refute it necessarily, but what about the pilot being a different person?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> do you mean that it actually IS flight 815? I'm not trying to refute it necessarily, but what about the pilot being a different person?





Spoiler



I don't know. The fact that Cuse says plainly: "...Oceanic 815 is in the trench at the bottom of the ocean..." would seem to indicate that it is the plane - OTOH, he also says: "The act of taking a plane, filling it with dead bodies and putting it at the bottom of the ocean connotes a group that is pretty freakin' powerful. You should be worried about the *people involved in either scenario* capable of doing something like that."; which kind of contradicts the earlier part about it being 815 and also makes me now think it wasn't natural, because he says people are involved in either scenario...

But I also think "doubles" factor in somehow, based on the Orchid film - which was specifically released as a prelude to season four - the plane and supposed bodies, and Charlie being dead but "also here".

The only thing I'm sure of is that we're not supposed to be sure of anything regarding the plane


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## schmatt (Dec 9, 2004)

I'm not putting in this as a spoiler because it's just a guess.

My theory? Read about the Philadelphia Experiment on wiki. It explains a lot of what has happened on the show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_experiment


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

schmatt said:


> My theory? Read about the Philadelphia Experiment on wiki. It explains a lot of what has happened on the show.


I'm sure it was an influence, but they wouldn't be so stupid as to use it directly, as that was done too recently. Then again, that miniseries was in 2005, after Lost premiered.

It just goes back to the fact that there are no original ideas. 

Greg


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

cmaasfamily said:


> Plane crash survivors get "tonight, a very special Dateline" appearances, not fan clubs. Bad writing, or does something happen to kick them up to the 'A' list?


I think it's a bit more than just "plane-crash survivor". The plane's disposition and whereabouts were unknown for weeks and months, keeping it in the news. Then it was "found" and the passengers were confirmed dead, plus there was some newsworthy comments about the inability to retrieve the bodies. Then some time passes and the story fades and then, impossibly, _survivors show up_ somehow (can't wait to find out how). And then they tell a story of remarkable heroism and struggles against adversity. And one of these back-from-the-dead heroes turns out to be a wanted murderer who still has to stand trial. That just spells "media circus" and a story that'll stay in the news at least through the trial, and probably longer!



Delta13 said:


> Why was the trial in California? Because all celebrity trials are held there, silly! No paparazzi live in Iowa, duh! Who'd take all the pictures?


Well, they could always fly from LA to Iowa, assuming that they don't crash-land on a strange, alternate-timeline-inducing lake somewhere in Colorado on the way.



unicorngoddess said:


> But at the end of last season when Jack is talking about wanting to get back to the island, does he not mention that he's been flying all over the south pacific hoping to get back there? Or something along those lines.


He says he flies from LA to Tokyo, or Singapore, or Sydney. Doesn't really tell us anything more than we knew from knowing 815 went from Sydney to LA in the first place (and was 1000 miles off course).



MickeS said:


> Or it could be that he knows that $3.2 million is the amount that Ben has stashed away somewhere


That's the most likely explanation, I think (that or the "it's a code" explanation). But for a moment I channeled a moment from _Mad About You_ and thought it was going to turn out that's precisely how much he needed for something (owed to a loan shark, for an operation for his grandmother, for a new set of really really good snow tires...).


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