# Hawkeye - Season One - Spoilers for Aired Eps



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

D+ dropped the first two eps of Hawkeye. Like some of their other shows, it's started slowly. But I expect it to pick up.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Haven't watched it yet, so I'll just leave this here without reading:
'Hawkeye' Episode 1 introduces Kate Bishop. Here's what she brings to the MCU


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

I’m only a few minutes in, but I want to post that for all the crap Hawkeye gets for not being “super” enough to be an avenger I love that he inspired someone at the battle of New York.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Enjoyed the first two episodes, looking forward to more.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Rodgers the musical was funny and ridiculous. 

Did Hawkeye have hearing aids before? Was there an explanation as to why he has them? I missed it.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> Rodgers the musical was funny and ridiculous.
> 
> Did Hawkeye have hearing aids before? Was there an explanation as to why he has them? I missed it.


There was a flashback scene.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> Did Hawkeye have hearing aids before? Was there an explanation as to why he has them? I missed it.


A short mention in Ep 2 while they were walking on the street. He pointed out his hearing aids, she asked "What happened?", and there was a short montage of things exploding and him crashing through things* (ie, years of Avengering), and he answered "uh, too hard to tell".

* Closed captioned as: GROANING, EXPLOSIONS, GROANS - which kinda made me giggle.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

So the track suit mafia was after a watch from Avengers Compound.

Tony watch with his tech maybe?


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

zordude said:


> So the track suit mafia was after a watch from Avengers Compound.
> 
> Tony watch with his tech maybe?


We never really heard a thing about the watch again, did we? I assumed the dog had it somehow. Maybe the watch was nothing, and we'll never hear of it again.


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

For some reason I wasn't expecting this until December?

Anyway, just finished the first episode. Looks interesting enough so far.



Turtleboy said:


> Rodgers the musical was funny and ridiculous.


Yes it was hilarious. Also very touching when Clint saw the Black Widow character on stage. Actually surprised he made it that long before deciding he needed to get out there.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Hoffer said:


> We never really heard a thing about the watch again, did we? I assumed the dog had it somehow. Maybe the watch was nothing, and we'll never hear of it again.


Based on what we were shown, there's no reason not to believe it's sitting either on the ground next to the duffel bag, or in a side pocket of the duffel bag. It was in his hands, there was sortof a stashing motion, then his hands were both on the pavement empty as he was bracing himself while he was being tugged at.

Edit: It could also be sitting on top of the duffel bag, as there is a visibly tagged item at the opening, that just makes less sense given what happened, he would have had to toss it "up" to get it back there after he had it on the ground.

But, this is a Marvel TV show. So if it's important, it's almost guaranteed that someone pocketed it in a way that's unlikely given (but not technically incompatible with) the way the shots were framed.

At the end of the day, it will turn up wherever the plot demands it be.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

So, Jack is no good.. He's obviously someone... But I don't know the comics.. But he's someone people know.

I don't exactly recall a watch in the MCU movies.. But it seems we are supposed to remember it?

I thought the woman who is boss of Track Suit Mafia was Yalena. But nope.. That doesn't seem to be the case. 

The larper guy Clint fought? Who is that? he's not some rando. He'll be back I'm sure.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> Did Hawkeye have hearing aids before? Was there an explanation as to why he has them? I missed it.


A review I read of the series explained that in the comics, Hawkeye had deliberately wrecked his hearing in a storyline to escape from a supervillain and inconsistently was portrayed with hearing aids thereafter, depending on whether writers remembered. They've obviously decided to include that detail here but with a more prosaic MCU backstory.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Rodgers the musical was funny and ridiculous.


It was also very well done considering it's not a real musical. Considering all the other Disney Broadway musicals, maybe it's coming? 

I liked Clint's line about fighting Thanos when he was facing off against the LARPer.

I'm surprised Disney dropped 2 episodes in one night, considering there's only 6. I guess they need it to be over by Christmas.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> I thought the woman who is boss of Track Suit Mafia was Yalena. But nope.. That doesn't seem to be the case.


I thought maybe she was YoYo from SHIELD (She's not, and would be an odd crossover)


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I thought it might be the watch from this clip, but it's not.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

morac said:


> It was also very well done considering it's not a real musical. Considering all the other Disney Broadway musicals, maybe it's coming?


you can listen to this.. I really really really hope that they actually crated and filmed the entire stage performance of this song and that we will see it one day soon.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I'm guessing Ant Man being at the Battle of New York in "Rogers: The Musical" is some sort of nod to Ant Man being one of the original Avengers in the comics.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

jsmeeker said:


> I thought the woman who is boss of Track Suit Mafia was Yalena. But nope.. That doesn't seem to be the case.


Already announced that it's Echo and she is getting her own Marvel show on Disney+. Has ties to Kingpin and Daredevil in the comics in addition to using the Ronin name too.

'Hawkeye': Echo Spinoff Show in the Works for Disney Plus (EXCLUSIVE) - Variety


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

osu1991 said:


> Already announced that it's Echo and she is getting her own Marvel show on Disney+. Has ties to Kingpin and Daredevil in the comics in addition to using the Ronin name too.
> 
> 'Hawkeye': Echo Spinoff Show in the Works for Disney Plus (EXCLUSIVE) - Variety


yeah

I saw that  At least, the character name.. I did not recall at all the announced series..

embarassing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

If it were anybody else, Kate would be unbearably obnoxious. But somehow Steinfeld makes her...appealingly obnoxious. If that's a thing.

Which apparently it is now.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Sure.. She is appealing.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> you can listen to this.. I really really really hope that they actually crated and filmed the entire stage performance of this song and that we will see it one day soon.


The song is an album on Apple Music so I checked it out to see what else the artist wrote and it was written by the guy who wrote the music for Rent (that or the singers were in Rent), so Disney went all out for something that was only on screen for a few minutes.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

yeah... I did some reading about it all.. apparently, it all stemmed from some casual "throw away" suggestion someone made.. Marvel needed a reason for Clint to be in New York.. Someone casually tossed out (as a joke) "How about he's there for a musical about Steve/The Avengers".

and boom..


i really really really hope they fully produced and staged at least one full song.. serisously... I want to see it..

it will be ridiculous and silly. I mean Hulk is some dude in a green hoodie...


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

They kind of made a big thing about Yelena being in the show. I was a bit surprised she hasn't shown up yet, considering there are only 6 episodes.


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

morac said:


> The song is an album on Apple Music so I checked it out to see what else the artist wrote and it was written by the guy who wrote the music for Rent (that or the singers were in Rent), so Disney went all out for something that was only on screen for a few minutes.


Not sure what artist you looked up since you don't give a name, but Jonathan Larson, who wrote Rent, died in 1996. So he definitely didn't write "Save the City". Adam Pascal, who was in the original Broadway cast of Rent, is one of the artists listed as performing this song. Perhaps that's where the confusion is coming from?

Regardless, yes it would be cool to see this song at least, staged and performed.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I liked the musical bit but definitely would not watch a full play version of it.

I had completely forgotten who Ronin was but vaguely remember mentions of Barton going "off script" from one of the Avengers movies.

I know nothing about Kate Bishop. Did she have a dog in the comics?

The Tracksuit Mafia. That gave me a lol.

Kate's mom's fiance is definitely a bad guy but I have no idea who.

How many episodes in this series? It's not the most action packed Marvel show so far.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I had completely forgotten who Ronin was but vaguely remember mentions of Barton going "off script" from one of the Avengers movies.


That was in "Endgame"... He went renegade after losing his whole family due to the snap.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> How many episodes in this series?


Six episodes, concluding on December 22.


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

The really important question here is, does Clint make it home in time for Christmas?


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

My guess is he does.. But just barely.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, it's still five days until Christmas and only four hours of show left. So he has plenty of time!


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

When I saw the thread title, I thought this was a spinoff from M*A*S*H.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I've not cared about any Marvel TV series and am kind of tired of Marvel's omnipresence overall, but I got a family member to loan me their credentials so I could watch this. I said in the prerelease thread that I knew Hailee Steinfeld would draw me in, and she did. She's just such an appealing light comic performer, and she can deliver on drama, too. I like her pairing with Jeremy Renner so far.

I almost feel sorry for Renner that Hawkeye finally gets to the be focus of something, and it's not even that Hawkeye.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

jsmeeker said:


> So, Jack is no good.. He's obviously someone... But I don't know the comics.. But he's someone people know.


There's a slightly spoilery backgrounder in the article I shared in post #2 here.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I'd never heard of Hailee Steinfield but looking at IMDB I see she was Mattie in the remake of True Grit from a decade+ ago. She was definitely good in that!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> I'd never heard of Hailee Steinfield but looking at IMDB I see she was Mattie in the remake of True Grit from a decade+ ago. She was definitely good in that!


She also made a Transformers movie (Bumblebee) worth seeing. Which, AFAIC, is a major achievement!


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

heySkippy said:


> I'd never heard of Hailee Steinfield but looking at IMDB I see she was Mattie in the remake of True Grit from a decade+ ago. She was definitely good in that!


I am a huge fan of her performance in the Cohen Bros' True Grit. But I haven't liked her in anything else since.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

They really want us to think that Jack killed Armande. Which means that he probably didn't. 

Or did.


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

Just realized my subscription will run out before episode 4 as I have D+ scheduled for a hiatus. I was hoping for a Black Friday deal but haven’t seen one. Guess I’ll pick this back up after some more shows come online.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

"Book Of Boba Fett" should some out not too long after "Hawkeye" ends


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

heySkippy said:


> I'd never heard of Hailee Steinfield but looking at IMDB I see she was Mattie in the remake of True Grit from a decade+ ago. She was definitely good in that!


As you've looked at her IMDB you know what else she's been in. She's wonderful in _Dickinson_ on Apple TV+ right now, for example.

She has also been a pop music singer, with several catchy hit songs.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I always wish Linda Cardellini had more to do in things like this. She's too good to be so marginal. That said, I like how they've positioned her in this world: not as a nagging spouse who threatens to leave if the hero doesn't give up heroing, but a supportive partner who understands who she's chosen to be with and seems to accept the consequences that come with it. The scene in episode 2 where he calls her and tells her he plans to get caught in order to get to the bottom of things, and she approves of the plan -- even acknowledging that it was a favorite of Natasha's -- was a small one, but nice.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> She also made a Transformers movie (Bumblebee) worth seeing. Which, AFAIC, is a major achievement!


That was the first movie role I saw her in and also the last one until Hawkeye. Bumblebee was not only the best Transformers movie by far, I thought it was a good movie on its own merits. Today I stumbled upon the fact that Ms. Stansfield voices the main character VI in Netflix's excellent animated series Arcane.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I really want to like this, but so far, all I want is for Kate to be killed due to stupidity. I hate it when supposedly smart people act like idiots.


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## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I know nothing about Kate Bishop. Did she have a dog in the comics?
> 
> The Tracksuit Mafia. That gave me a lol.


By my read, this series hews close in spirit and tone to an *excellent* Hawkeye miniseries a few years back by Matt Fraction and David Aja. Both Lucky the Pizza Dog and the tracksuit mafia play significant roles. I'm guessing they're going to do as much of the comics series as possible while staying within the MCU's Hawkeye character.

Bro.


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## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

Can anyone see a name on the the clock tower in E1? I saw someone allude to it, but can’t make anything out.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Drewster said:


> Can anyone see a name on the the clock tower in E1? I saw someone allude to it, but can't make anything out.


. IIRC, it was Stane, as in Obadiah Stane, the villain from Iron Man.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Drewster said:


> By my read, this series hews close in spirit and tone to an *excellent* Hawkeye miniseries a few years back by Matt Fraction and David Aja. Both Lucky the Pizza Dog and the tracksuit mafia play significant roles. I'm guessing they're going to do as much of the comics series as possible while staying within the MCU's Hawkeye character.
> 
> Bro.


It's directly based on the series. It's not an exact adaptation though.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> It's directly based on the series. It's not an exact adaptation though.


In fact the writer of the comics is credited as a producer on the series. I don't think I've ever seen that in a Marvel show before...


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> That was the first movie role I saw her in and also the last one until Hawkeye. Bumblebee was not only the best Transformers movie by far, I thought it was a good movie on its own merits. Today I stumbled upon the fact that Ms. Stansfield voices the main character VI in Netflix's excellent animated series Arcane.


Hailee has also already had a role in a [non-MCU] Marvel movie. She voiced Gwen Stacey/Spider-Gwen in the animated "Into The Spiderverse"


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> In fact the writer of the comics is credited as a producer on the series. I don't think I've ever seen that in a Marvel show before...


Fraction's got connections.

Hawkeye Writer Matt Fraction's Role in the Disney+ Show Was Thanks to Seth Meyers, Not Marvel


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

we're halfway through this series and I am still not totally sure what is going on.

I know Ronin ( Clint) did something to piss off Maya(Echo) and this Track Suit Mafia. But I don't know what he did. I'm also pretty sure Yelana is not connected to the main plot at all.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> I know Ronin ( Clint) did something to piss off Maya(Echo) and this Track Suit Mafia.


I think he (as Ronin) killed her father. If that's not the case, than I misinterpreted that scene badly.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

kdmorse said:


> I think he (as Ronin) killed her father. If that's not the case, than I misinterpreted that scene badly.


He did kill Maya's father.

But why? What was the reason behind it all?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> He did kill Maya's father.
> 
> But why? What was the reason behind it all?


Because that's what he did at that time. Hawkeye took on the Ronin identity to track down and kill criminals during the Blip (he was distraught over the disappearance of his family) until Natasha brought him back into the Avengers fold.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> He did kill Maya's father.
> 
> But why? What was the reason behind it all?


I swear there was a line, I can't find it now, that basically said he was in town slaughtering his way through a high level criminal meeting. That's what he was pretty much doing at his phase in his life, slaughtering his way through criminal gangs.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Because that's what he did at that time. Hawkeye took on the Ronin identity to track down and kill criminals during the Blip (he was distraught over the disappearance of his family) until Natasha brought him back into the Avengers fold.


sure

but what was the specific reason he had for Track Suit Mafia? He told Kate some vague stuff about them.. But there has to be more to it.

There is more to it than just some "random" gang thing


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> sure
> 
> but what was the specific reason he had for Track Suit Mafia? He told Kate some vague stuff about them.. But there has to be more to it.
> 
> There is more to it than just some "random" gang thing


He was led to them by their supplier, or something like that.

Presumably, as we learn more about the Track Suit Mafia (and Echo) over the next three episodes we'll learn more about Hawkeye/Ronin's involvement with them.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He was led to them by their supplier, or something like that.
> 
> Presumably, as we learn more about the Track Suit Mafia (and Echo) over the next three episodes we'll learn more about Hawkeye/Ronin's involvement with them.


time is running out!

It didn't feel like this episode advanced the story line much. Really, just introduced us to Echo/Maya.

We still need to find out what Jack is up to? is he connected to Track Suit Mafia? What did Track Suit Mafia want with the watch?


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

jsmeeker said:


> time is running out!
> 
> It didn't feel like this episode advanced the story line much. Really, just introduced us to Echo/Maya.
> 
> We still need to find out what Jack is up to? is he connected to Track Suit Mafia? What did Track Suit Mafia want with the watch?


Is Jack the uncle? Or was that armond that pinched her cheek at the karate thing when she was little?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dwatt said:


> Is Jack the uncle? Or was that armond that pinched her cheek at the karate thing when she was little?


Jack is Kate's Mom's fiancé. The man with the sword.

Dare I say...the swordsman?


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

I am not a comics guy so don't know the material this is base on. But then who is the uncle (brother of the deaf lady's dad) that pinched her cheek at the karate match?


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Same Uncle who runs the Tracksuit Mafia. Rumored, or speculated at least, to eventually be revealed as



Spoiler



The Kingpin,



who I am sure you can read about on Wikipedia if that turns out to be correct.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ironically, in one of the great cheats in comic book history, Echo was the original identity of Ronin. A cheat because before the big reveal, Ronin was clearly drawn to be male. Everybody assumed that Ronin was actually Daredevil in disguise, and in fact that was the original plan. But the writer, who had thought he was being clever by making him Daredevil, changed his mind at the last minute because he didn't want Ronin to be revealed as somebody who everybody expected him to be.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jack is Kate's Mom's fiancé. The man with the sword.
> 
> Dare I say...the swordsman?


You may dare. They're certainly hinting at it pretty strongly.


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

I'm really enjoying this series. The pacing makes it feel like it's moving right along, where some of the others have seemed to drag a little in the middle.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jack is Kate's Mom's fiancé. The man with the sword.
> 
> Dare I say...the swordsman?


Yes... But is he connected to the Track Suit Mafia?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Are you expecting all the answers to be given when the story's only half over?


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Was jazzed to see Zahn McClarnon (Aketcheta from Westworld, Crow Daddy in Doctor Sleep) and bummed to see him so rapidly done away with.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Are you expecting all the answers to be given when the story's only half over?


I'm just asking what people know. Like based on comics, clues I have missed during the show, etc.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I’m surprised no one commented on the Pym arrow. That was a ridiculous tactic that could have possibly destroyed the bridge.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

morac said:


> I'm surprised no one commented on the Pym arrow. That was a ridiculous tactic that could have possibly destroyed the bridge.


Of course it was a completely absurd, and impractical, and dangerous thing to do. Also, one of the most entertaining ones that made people ooh, ahh, and giggle. And I'm not 100% sure it's that much worse than, well, the entire rest of the chase scene in the middle of New York. (And of course, there's an airport in germany that would just tell that bridge to suck it up, it's just one arrow.  )


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

It also couldn't possibly have destroyed the bridge because this entire thing is made up and they decided not to have it destroy the bridge.


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

Lawn dart (jarts?) flash backs.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> Yes... But is he connected to the Track Suit Mafia?


Jacques could be Maya's boss.
Or maybe not.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Jacques could be Maya's boss.
> Or maybe not.


That's what I am wondering/asking.

Jack/Jacques is up to something. But what? Something not connected to the Track Suit Mafia?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> That's what I am wondering/asking.
> 
> Jack/Jacques is up to something. But what? Something not connected to the Track Suit Mafia?


There is that whole question about Tony's watch as well.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

JYoung said:


> There is that whole question about Tony's watch as well.


Yes.

But thanks for telling me it's Tony's. That's one thing I didn't know and missed. I just knew it came from Avengers tower. And I didn't specifically recall any watch from previous movies.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> Yes.
> 
> But thanks for telling me it's Tony's. That's one thing no didn't know. I just knew it came from Avengers tower. And I didn't specifically recall any watch from previous movies.


I thought that it was either stated or implied in the show.
Or maybe I'm confused because some speculated that it's the watch Tony wore in Civil War with the pop up repulsor glove.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

JYoung said:


> I thought that it was either stated or implied in the show.
> Or maybe I'm confused because some speculated that it's the watch Tony wore in Civil War with the pop up repulsor glove.


Ok. So we have seen it.

That's what I have been wondering.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

The provenance of the watch has not been said on the show.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Jacques could be Maya's boss.
> Or maybe not.


We saw a bit of Uncle in Maya's flashback and he appears to be a much larger man than Jack. And there is a large man in the Marvel criminal world who, I have read, has a comics history with Maya...


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I thought that it was either stated or implied in the show.
> Or maybe I'm confused because some speculated that it's the watch Tony wore in Civil War with the pop up repulsor glove.





JYoung said:


> I thought that it was either stated or implied in the show.
> Or maybe I'm confused because some speculated that it's the watch Tony wore in Civil War with the pop up repulsor glove.


Definitely not the same watch. I checked.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

In the comics, sword master trained Hawkeye. I wonder if they will recognize each other at the beginning of the next episode.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> In the comics, sword master trained Hawkeye. I wonder if they will recognize each other at the beginning of the next episode.


ohhhh....

Interesting.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Swordsman has been around in the comics for 55+ years.

-smak-


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

smak said:


> Swordsman has been around in the comics for 55+ years.
> 
> -smak-


And the great majority of people watching this show have read the comics for zero years.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> Definitely not the same watch. I checked.


I agree, not the same watch


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

zordude said:


> I agree, not the same watch


And I'll add, my first thought was the watch was very clearly a very Tony Starkish red and gold that matches the Iron Man color scheme, but that's a illusion. The red tinting comes from the red lighting above the street, so I'm no long thinking that notion necessarily holds true.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I wonder why Clint can't just go home to his family for Christmas and then come back to New York to help Kate afterwards. Is there something going on so time dependent that he has to remain? If Kate's in trouble wit the Tracksuit Mafia, take her back to Casa Barton for the holidays too.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I wonder why Clint can't just go home to his family for Christmas and then come back to New York to help Kate afterwards. Is there something going on so time dependent that he has to remain? If Kate's in trouble wit the Tracksuit Mafia, take her back to Casa Barton for the holidays too.


Well, I'm not sure putting your own family in the bullseye is the best strategy when taking on organized crime...


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I wonder why Clint can't just go home to his family for Christmas and then come back to New York to help Kate afterwards. Is there something going on so time dependent that he has to remain? If Kate's in trouble wit the Tracksuit Mafia, take her back to Casa Barton for the holidays too.


His goal seems to be to recovery the Ronin suit right?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> His goal seems to be to recovery the Ronin suit right?


He already recovered it in episode 2 from the LARPer.

His original goal was to convince the track suit mafia gang that Kate isn't Ronin. At this point Echo doesn't seem to care if Kate is or not, she just wants someone to pay.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

he did? **** I need to rewatch the last episode then hah


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

He got the suit. He may feel compelled to find the sword as well (which, err, he just did).

But there's specific evil afoot, and he's not really the type to go home for Christmas when there's specific evil afoot.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

kdmorse said:


> He got the suit. He may feel compelled to find the sword as well (which, err, he just did).
> 
> But there's specific evil afoot, and he's not really the type to go home for Christmas when there's specific evil afoot.


And again, Echo and the Track Suits are hellbent to get him. Why would he lead them to his family?


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

They aren't the only ones, either.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> he did? **** I need to rewatch the last episode then hah


As others noted, the LARPer gave it back to him after Barton allowed himself to be defeated.

Clint apparently doesn't watch Lockpickinglawyer on YouTube, because he then stashed the suit in a locker at a 24/7 gym and secured the locker with a basic retail padlock.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

LoadStar said:


> As others noted, the LARPer gave it back to him after Barton allowed himself to be defeated.
> 
> Clint apparently doesn't watch Lockpickinglawyer on YouTube, because he then stashed the suit in a locker at a 24/7 gym and secured the locker with a basic retail padlock.


ahhh! I do remember that part, damn I need to rewatch still though

Trying to get my wife to watch it with me


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And again, Echo and the Track Suits are hellbent to get him. Why would he lead them to his family?


They wouldn't know where he went for a few days unless he told them. It doesn't really matter. It's just a plot point that stood out to (only) me.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> They wouldn't know where he went for a few days unless he told them. It doesn't really matter. It's just a plot point that stood out to (only) me.


Somehow they managed to find Kate's apartment even though they weren't following her.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

morac said:


> Somehow they managed to find Kate's apartment even though they weren't following her.


*Clint:* The Tracksuits must have followed you from the auction to where I found you. Did you stop anywhere before that?
*Kate:* I just dropped off the dog.
*Ivan* [shouts from outside]*:* Hey Kate Bishop!
*Kate:* Aaand my name's on the buzzer.
*Clint:* Oh no. Get down.
["Molotov Cocktail" crashes through window.]


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

The NYC scenes made keep thinking that Charlie Cox's Daredevil was going to show up.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

I thought of this a couple days ago, tweeted it yesterday. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468019403597881344


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I would have no idea what that meant.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

jsmeeker said:


> I would have no idea what that meant.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Yeah... I've never watched that show..

But this is why we have threads like this.. To explain the. things others missed


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

jsmeeker said:


> Yeah... I've never watched that show..
> 
> But this is why we have threads like this.. To explain the. things others missed


That scenario is wishful thinking, but yeah, it would be cool.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

There are many reasons to watch Daredevil, Cage, and Jessica Jones.

There are zero reasons to watch Defenders, or (shudder) Iron Fist.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Drewster said:


> There are many reasons to watch Daredevil, Cage, and Jessica Jones.
> 
> There are zero reasons to watch Defenders, or (shudder) Iron Fist.


Actually, there is one good reason to watch Iron Fist (Jessica Henwick), and two to watch Iron Fist 2 (Jessica Henwick and Simone Missick).


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Actually, there is one good reason to watch Iron Fist (Jessica Henwick), and two to watch Iron Fist 2 (Jessica Henwick and Simone Missick).


Yes, it's a damned shame those two had to pidgeonholed into such an awful show.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Drewster said:


> Yes, it's a damned shame those two had to pidgeonholed into such an awful show.


I'm totally convinced that if the Netflix corner of the MCU had survived, we would have seen a Daughters of the Dragon series.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm totally convinced that if the Netflix corner of the MCU had survived, we would have seen a Daughters of the Dragon series.


Concur. They were awesome.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm totally convinced that if the Netflix corner of the MCU had survived, we would have seen a Daughters of the Dragon series.


Dear Disney Plus ...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Interestingly, Henwick was asked to audition for a role in Shang-Chi. (We don't know what that role would have been.) But she was also asked to audition for a role in the new Matrix movie, and both studios said if she auditioned for the other, she couldn't audition for theirs. So she chose the red pill.

Jessica Henwick Forced to Pick 'Matrix 4' or MCU After Studios Refused to Let Her Audition for Both

Judging from the trailers, I suspect she made the right choice...


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

YAY! Yelena! Finally ...

I'm still not getting the significance of the watch. Clint made it sound like the owner was still alive, so it couldn't have belonged to Tony Stark.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Lol at Clint drinking coffee out of a “Thanos was right” coffee mug. 

Yelena would have been a surprise if she wasn’t spoiled weeks ago.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> YAY! Yelena! Finally ...
> 
> I'm still not getting the significance of the watch. Clint made it sound like the owner was still alive, so it couldn't have belonged to Tony Stark.


If it wasn't a man's watch, I'd be pretty convinced it's his wife's, and she was a former SHIELD agent. it can be tracked, so sounds like something a SHIELD agent would have.

-smak-


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

morac said:


> Lol at Clint drinking coffee out of a "Thanos was right" coffee mug.
> 
> Yelena would have been a surprise if she wasn't spoiled weeks ago.


Well, we knew she was coming.  And they never specified which episode in the brief glimpse of her in the upcoming scenes trailer.

-smak-


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

smak said:


> Well, we knew she was coming.


I only knew she was coming because people have been posting (everywhere not just here) that she's coming. I never saw anything official from Disney. I only watched the original trailer and if she was in that it must have been one of those blink and you miss it.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

morac said:


> I only knew she was coming because people have been posting (everywhere not just here) that she's coming. I never saw anything official from Disney. I only watched the original trailer and if she was in that it must have been one of those blink and you miss it.


You didn't see Black Widow?


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

smak said:


> You didn't see Black Widow?


I did, so I know who the character is, but BW didn't say "Yelena will be back in the Hawkeye series" or something like that.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

morac said:


> I did, so I know who the character is, but BW didn't say "Yelena will be back in the Hawkeye series" or something like that.


She was shown a picture of Hawkeye and was told he killed her sister, and then she was announced as part of the Hawkeye cast...

-smak-


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

smak said:


> She was shown a picture of Hawkeye and was told he killed her sister, and then she was announced as part of the Hawkeye cast...
> 
> -smak-


The first part was in the movie. The second part was not.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

morac said:


> The first part was in the movie. The second part was not.


Well, you said you never saw anything official from Disney. But there was.

That's why I've said, if it's in a trailer, or Disney announces it, they want you to know. If not they want it to be a secret.

Those are the things I hate finding out.

-smak-


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

smak said:


> Well, you said you never saw anything official from Disney. But there was.
> 
> That's why I've said, if it's in a trailer, or Disney announces it, they want you to know. If not they want it to be a secret.
> 
> ...


They seemed to play it off as a surprise since Yelena wore a black hood as if you weren't supposed to know who she was until the dramatic reveal when Hawkeye tore off the hood and the camera pulled back to show her.

Because I heard about this ahead of time I knew it was Yelena once they showed her fighting Hawkeye, so for a good 5 minutes.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

smak said:


> If it wasn't a man's watch, I'd be pretty convinced it's his wife's, and she was a former SHIELD agent. it can be tracked, so sounds like something a SHIELD agent would have.
> 
> -smak-


That seems to be the most popular theory.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

smak said:


> If it wasn't a man's watch, I'd be pretty convinced it's his wife's, and *she was a former SHIELD agent*. it can be tracked, so sounds like something a SHIELD agent would have.
> 
> -smak-


For the non-comics readers, is there any possible way they could have known that? In this week's ep she did seem quite unusually helpful with Clint on the phone.


----------



## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> For the non-comics readers, is there any possible way they could have known that? In this week's ep she did seem quite unusually helpful with Clint on the phone.


I think it's just a theory. She wasn't in any of the Hawkeye comics that this is based on.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Laura could easily be an alias...

Maybe it wasn't just Hawkeye who needed the farm house in the middle of nowhere.

-smak-


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

realityboy said:


> I think it's just a theory. She wasn't in any of the Hawkeye comics that this is based on.


Under Laura 

smak-


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

A few of the interpersonal moments were nice here in *S01E04 *but overall I didn't care for this one. Oddly-paced and absolutely no development of anything. I guess we know now that Jack is a bad guy, but we hardly needed that to be told outright. And why is Vera Farmiga in this series? Presumably/hopefully that question will have an answer in the final two.

ETA: The seemingly-obvious answer to this is that Jack isn't the bad guy at all, but it's really Eleanor pulling the strings.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Laura being some how knowledgable/helpful with Clint's stuff is pretty cool reveal.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

cmontyburns said:


> A few of the interpersonal moments were nice here in *S01E04 *but overall I didn't care for this one. Oddly-paced and absolutely no development of anything. I guess we know now that Jack is a bad guy, but we hardly needed that to be told outright. And why is Vera Farmiga in this series? Presumably/hopefully that question will have an answer in the final two.


he still might not be... But now I am thinking Elanor is a bad guy (woman)


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> he still might not be... But now I am thinking Elanor is a bad guy (woman)


Yeah, just edited my post to add that thought.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I find it funny how everyone is now calling Clint "Hawkeye".. As if it was a common thing people always did


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> I find it funny how everyone is now calling Clint "Hawkeye".. As if it was a common thing people always did


Well, Hawkeye was his Avengers name. And that's where just about everybody knows him from.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, Hawkeye was his Avengers name. And that's where just about everybody knows him from.


I guess they read the comics


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I was under the impression that the watch was Natasha’s.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> I was under the impression that the watch was Natasha's.


I'm assuming the track suitors stole it for Echo who would have given it to her boss.

I'm not sure why they want Natasha's watch. A watch what they seemed to say would tie back to somebody current.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Clint said it belonged to someone living whose identity would be compromised if it fell into the wrong hands. I can't think of any reason why a watch that belonged to Natasha would cause so much fuss. Everyone knew her identity after the Winter Soldier, plus everyone knows she's dead.

OTOH, if it did belong to Laura, how did it end up at the Avengers compound?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm curious as to how a watch could uncover somebody's identity. Was it engraved with somebody's real and Avenger names? It both makes sense and doesn't make sense if it belongs to Laura.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Are we going to see a final fight between Laura and Kate's mom?


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Laura, Elanor (Kate's Mom), and Pizza Dog


----------



## Grasshopper AZ (Apr 29, 2005)

jsmeeker said:


> Laura, Elanor (Kate's Mom), and Pizza Dog


Pizza Dog better win!


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Pizza Dog for sure plays an important role at some point..


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468951099088510980


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

I love that Pizza Dog woofed up at the snack bowl.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> And why is Vera Farmiga in this series?


Where does everyone seem to know her from? Looking at her bio she's a steady working actor, but nothing popped out at me as cultural zeitgeist that got a ton of eyeballs.

(And for some reason, I can't recall having seen anything in her credits list.)


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Drewster said:


> Where does everyone seem to know her from? Looking at her bio she's a steady working actor, but nothing popped out at me as cultural zeitgeist that got a ton of eyeballs.
> 
> (And for some reason, I can't recall having seen anything in her credits list.)


She's very highly regarded. Been nominated for an Oscar and a couple of Emmys.


----------



## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Drewster said:


> Where does everyone seem to know her from? Looking at her bio she's a steady working actor, but nothing popped out at me as cultural zeitgeist that got a ton of eyeballs.
> 
> (And for some reason, I can't recall having seen anything in her credits list.)


Bates Motel was a great show, and The Conjuring movies seemed pretty successful.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Drewster said:


> Where does everyone seem to know her from? Looking at her bio she's a steady working actor, but nothing popped out at me as cultural zeitgeist that got a ton of eyeballs.
> 
> (And for some reason, I can't recall having seen anything in her credits list.)


She's been doing movies and TV for quite some time. Bates Motel was one of her most recent stints on TV, but she's done other shows prior to that.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

(She also has a much younger sister, Taissa, who is a regular in the American Horror Story shows...)


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> She's very highly regarded. Been nominated for an Oscar and a couple of Emmys.


Also nominated for an Oscar: Jeremy Renner, Hailee Steinfeld, Florence Pugh.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Also nominated for an Oscar: Jeremy Renner, Hailee Steinfeld, Florence Pugh.


Marvel has always been good at getting top talent for their movies/shows...starting with Robert Downey Jr, although he was considered a risk at the time because of his chemical abuse history.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Vera was also recently in "Many Saints of Newark" playing Livia Soprano.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

Mea culpa: I have seen “Up In The Air”.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

My prediction: Lucky the Pizza Dog is a skrull.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> My prediction: Lucky the Pizza Dog is a skrull.


Or a clone. It's Marvel, they're always either Skrulls or clones.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

A nice little summary (if not always entirely serious) of outstanding issues to be resolved...

_Hawkeye_: 16 Burning Questions Heading Into the Final 2 Episodes


----------



## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

This is Jolt, the pooch that plays pizza dog. I just assumed they used a dog with one eye.


__
http://instagr.am/p/CWq5nPxPpuZ/


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> A nice little summary (if not always entirely serious) of outstanding issues to be resolved...
> 
> _Hawkeye_: 16 Burning Questions Heading Into the Final 2 Episodes


heh... Number 4.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or a clone. It's Marvel, they're always either Skrulls or clones.


Or a clone of a Skrull.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Or a clone of a Skrull.


Or a Skrull imitating a clone.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Drewster said:


> Mea culpa: I have seen "Up In The Air".


I think that's when she first rose to prominence and that's the performance for which she received an Oscar nomination.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Big reveal confirmed, no surprise there.

Yelena was more than a bit hypocritical here. I kept waiting for Kate to call her out for all the people SHE's killed. Black Widow assassin kind of says it all.


----------



## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I like what they did with Yelena's snap. She's at the bathroom sink and she turns to dust and immediately comes back. Bathroom is different, due to a remodel. The woman she was just talking to happens to be in the same room, but now she's like married with a kid. That would be one hell of a confusing situation to be in.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> Big reveal confirmed, no surprise there.
> 
> Yelena was more than a bit hypocritical here. I kept waiting for Kate to call her out for all the people SHE's killed. Black Widow assassin kind of says it all.


Well I mean doesn't she have a cop out for that because you know, brainwashed mind control something something right?


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> Well I mean doesn't she have a cop out for that because you know, brainwashed mind control something something right?


Except that she's still a contract assassin. She admitted to Kate that she was hired to kill Clint.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Seems like there are a good number of loose ends to tie up in the one remaining episode.

I thought it was interesting that Vincent D'Onfrio was listed sixth in the credits, above Maya, even though his blurry photo was only in the episode for about three seconds.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

So, am I misremembering the end of Black Window? I thought it was pretty clear that the character played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus told Yelena that Clint killed Natasha, and assigned Clint as Yelena's next target.

Not that both can't be true, I'm sure Elenore's involved in the current New York shenanigans. But Yelena having to tail Elenore to figure out who hired her, seems a bit conflicting, or at least confusing.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

kdmorse said:


> So, am I misremembering the end of Black Window? I thought it was pretty clear that the character played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus told Yelena that Clint killed Natasha, and assigned Clint as Yelena's next target.
> 
> Not that both can't be true, I'm sure Elenore's involved in the current New York shenanigans. But Yelena having to tail Elenore to figure out who hired her, seems a bit conflicting, or at least confusing.


It sounds like Elenore didn't hire Yelena directly, which is why Yelena had to figure out who hired her. It's possible JLD acted as a go between.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

There was really no reason for Val herself to want Clint dead. 

I think one of the reasons she’s starting this group of superpowerds is to do jobs that normal people can’t do. 

So she gets a call to kill Clint and has the perfect person for the job.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Seems like there are a good number of loose ends to tie up in the one remaining episode.


Plus this episode seemed to be unusually short for the fifth episode in a run only six episodes long.


----------



## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

I do wonder if the 6th ep will be a bit longer than the 40-45 minutes that these other eps have been.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

So, Val works for/with Kingpin


Kingpin is a Spider-Man guy.. we saw him in "into the Spider-Verse". I guess at somepoint, we see Kingpin in some real MCU thing that Spider-Man is also in.. Even if maybe it's not Peter Parker Spider-Man.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I was a bit impressed that the first 3/4 or so of the episode was basically people having conversations...and yet when the action finally breaks out at the end, it actually becomes less interesting.

Kudos to an excellent cast! (And writers...)


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

I've read a few articles that say that if the plot doesn't appear to flow 100% perfectly from the post credits of Black Widow into Hawkeye on this matter, it's partly because the person who wrote the post credits scene wasn't told what it would lead to. It was basically "Write a scene where Val sends Yelena to kill Clint, don't worry about the details, we'll make it work on the other side".


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> So, Val works for/with Kingpin
> 
> Kingpin is a Spider-Man guy.. we saw him in "into the Spider-Verse". I guess at somepoint, we see Kingpin in some real MCU thing that Spider-Man is also in.. Even if maybe it's not Peter Parker Spider-Man.


I'm no expert on this stuff, but I believe that Kingpin has appeared across Marvel comics in a number of series. He's got print history with Maya, for example, which is why (beyond all the obvious hints in this series) it was expected he would turn out to be the boss.

If you weren't aware, he featured prominently in the Daredevil show over on Netflix and was played by Vincent D'Onofrio there as well. That's one reason this is kind of an interesting development, because it's Marvel Studios for the first time saying that not everything their now-defunct, arms-length cousin Marvel TV made for Netflix was only good for the dustbin.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

So Jack is pretty obviously a patsy, set up by Eleanor to throw to the wolves if anyone got too close.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

cmontyburns said:


> So Jack is pretty obviously a patsy, set up by Eleanor to throw to the wolves if anyone got too close.


Sure is looking like that.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> I'm no expert on this stuff, but I believe that Kingpin has appeared across Marvel comics in a number of series. He's got print history with Maya, for example, which is why (beyond all the obvious hints in this series) it was expected he would turn out to be the boss.
> 
> If you weren't aware, he featured prominently in the Daredevil show over on Netflix and was played by Vincent D'Onofrio there as well. That's one reason this is kind of an interesting development, because it's Marvel Studios for the first time saying that not everything their now-defunct, arms-length cousin Marvel TV made for Netflix was only good for the dustbin.


And in the comics, while he started off in Spider-Man, for the past 40 years he has been primarily a Daredevil villain. (Thanks to late-70s/early 80s Daredevil writer-artist Frank Miller, who turned him from a silly cartoon into a compelling character.)


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

kdmorse said:


> I've read a few articles that say that if the plot doesn't appear to flow 100% perfectly from the post credits of Black Widow into Hawkeye on this matter, it's partly because the person who wrote the post credits scene wasn't told what it would lead to. It was basically "Write a scene where Val sends Yelena to kill Clint, don't worry about the details, we'll make it work on the other side".


The major issue being they seem like different parts of the year. BW being mid fall and Hawkeye late December.

Other than that I don't see an issue with anything else. I just see it as extra motive for Yelena to get the job done. Maybe other assassins wouldn't want to take on Hawkeye


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm usually not one to be bothered by bad foreign accents but Yelena's made me chuckle.


----------



## Grasshopper AZ (Apr 29, 2005)

Drewster said:


> Mea culpa: I have seen "Up In The Air".


I've seen it several times. It is one of my favorite movies. It helps that at the time it came out I traveled like George Clooney's character so I was able to relate to a lot of it.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I don’t think Jack is a patsy. I think those feds that arrested him are fakes, arranged as a show for Kate.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Philosofy said:


> I don't think Jack is a patsy. I think those feds that arrested him are fakes, arranged as a show for Kate.


One of them was the NYPD detective who tried to follow up with Kate after the Tracksuits torched her apartment.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Yep. Jack's hands aren't completely clean, as he was at the underground auction for Avengers stuff. So maybe he's got his own angle -- we do still have to get to why Armand was killed -- or maybe that's just supposed to be the sort of thing that rich dudes do. But it sure looks right now that whatever Eleanor has going on does not involve Jack.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

cmontyburns said:


> ack's hands aren't completely clean, as he was at the underground auction for Avengers stuff.


But he appeared to be there for one thing only: the Ronin sword.


----------



## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

Run time on the last episode is 59 minutes so hopefully they can tie up some of these loose ends.


----------



## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

KungFuCow said:


> Run time on the last episode is 59 minutes so hopefully they can tie up some of these loose ends.


Nice. About 15 more than "normal".


----------



## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

bryhamm said:


> Nice. About 15 more than "normal".


This is the longest running episode of any of the MCU Disney+ shows supposedly.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And in the comics, while he started off in Spider-Man, for the past 40 years he has been primarily a Daredevil villain. (Thanks to late-70s/early 80s Daredevil writer-artist Frank Miller, who turned him from a silly cartoon into a compelling character.)


He's kind of everywhere now as Mayor of New York but, yes, primarily in Daredevil comics.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

"Remember when you peed in your pants in the Hamptons? I do. Everybody does."

Watch speculation confirmed.

Maya-Kingpin fight: shot fired off-camera, leaving what happened unexplained, is so cliched.

For that matter, the ending of the Clint-Yelena fight also was so cliched you'd think both of their mothers were named Martha. Or in this case, Edith.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I thought it was a fun finale to a fun series.

edit to add - When Better Call Saul returns I'll simply not be able to look at Lalo the same way as before!


----------



## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

Seems like they kind of de-powered Kingpin (I know he doesnt have actual powers). He was a lot more resilient against Daredevil and whats up with that Hawaiin shirt he was wearing?


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

KungFuCow said:


> Seems like they kind of de-powered Kingpin (I know he doesnt have actual powers). He was a lot more resilient against Daredevil and whats up with that Hawaiin shirt he was wearing?


I actually thought they finally did show Kingpin wasn't a normal, but after reading the Wikipedia entry I can see they stayed fairly true to canon right down to the kevlar body armor. As for the shirt, I saw an article today that had a spiderman cover with KP wearing the shirt.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Kingpin survived Maya's gunshot in the comics. He'll survive it here too.

https://sportshub.cbsistatic.com/i/...webp&width=928&height=1426&crop=0.651:1,smart


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> you can listen to this.. I really really really hope that they actually crated and filmed the entire stage performance of this song and that we will see it one day soon.





jsmeeker said:


> yeah... I did some reading about it all.. apparently, it all stemmed from some casual "throw away" suggestion someone made.. Marvel needed a reason for Clint to be in New York.. Someone casually tossed out (as a joke) "How about he's there for a musical about Steve/The Avengers".
> 
> and boom..
> 
> ...


And they delivered!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!

So awesome.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

I think the owl amused me far more than it should have. 

And I'm disappointed in the renaming of Pizza Dog.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I really thought Pizza Dog was gonna play a big role in the final battle.. But it didn't happen.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

kdmorse said:


> And I'm disappointed in the renaming of Pizza Dog.


In the comics his full name is Lucky the Pizza Dog. So not really a renaming!


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

It was cool seeing the actual musical number for Rogers The Musical. It's all very tongue in cheek of course, but still fun.

I know it doesn't always happen that way, but thought we'd get a hint of things to come in the post credits. Oh well.

Not up on the comics, so no clue what name Clint was going to suggest to Kate.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

hapster85 said:


> It was cool seeing the actual musical number for Rogers The Musical. It's all very tongue in cheek of course, but still fun.
> 
> I know it doesn't always happen that way, but thought we'd get a hint of things to come in the post credits. Oh well.
> 
> Not up on the comics, so no clue what name Clint was going to suggest to Kate.


They show it in the in credits


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

hapster85 said:


> It was cool seeing the actual musical number for Rogers The Musical. It's all very tongue in cheek of course, but still fun.
> 
> I know it doesn't always happen that way, but thought we'd get a hint of things to come in the post credits. Oh well.
> 
> Not up on the comics, so no clue what name Clint was going to suggest to Kate.


Hawkeye


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

kdmorse said:


> I think the owl amused me far more than it should have.


It's more amusing if you know that's based on real life events.

Rocky, tiny owl rescued from Rockefeller Christmas tree, takes flight


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I have to say, as much as I generally liked the Netflix shows, Marvel has taken TV to a whole new level. WandaVision, Loki, and Hawkeye are all home runs. And Winter Falcon and What If ain't so bad themselves.


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## Bill Reeves (Jul 18, 2002)

I have a couple of nitpicks.

First, there were way too many tracksuit guys. We never saw more than a dozen or so in any previous scene, but they kept on showing up by the truckload at the final fight. It didn't seem reasonable for a crime organization to have that many low level soldiers - at some point it crosses the line from "mob" to "military" and becomes unmanageable without a command structure and such. It reminded me of some of the Netflix shows where the Hand had an endless supply of ninjas, to the point that I was wondering where they were sleeping and what they were eating - logistically, it would have been difficult to supply an army of minions that large.

Second, the song from the musical had some references to things we saw in the movies, but which weren't witnessed by the public within the universe. For example, the guy singing as Captain America sings "I can do this all day", which is a repeated line from the movies, but always took place in private settings. The guy singing as Iron Man mentioned shawarma, which was a memorable scene in the first Avengers movie, but was it known to the public that Tony wanted to try shawarma after the big fight? (Separate nitpick - is it realistic for a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist who ran a large defense contractor and traveled the world to have never tried shawarma before the year 2012? I had eaten shawarma by then and I am but a tiny fraction of everything the Tony Stark character is written as. But that's a nitpick for the Avengers movie, not the Hawkeye show.) Maybe there were some in-universe tell-all books that came out which provided these details so they would be recognized by the public in a song like that, but it seems more like the song was written for us, the audience of the MCU, rather than an audience that would have existed within the MCU.

Anyways, these are minor things. I enjoyed this show. I really liked the writing - the dialog from the tracksuit guys, and the scenes with Yelena and Kate Bishop were fun to watch. I hope there is more Kate Bishop in future shows and movies.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

There were people working at the shawarma place. If I worked there I would have told everybody The Avengers stopped by.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I enjoyed the finale overall. However I agree with almost all of what Alan Sepinwall wrote in his review. These would have been my points as well:

To the good:

Well-staged and -choreographed action in this finale
Great blend of comedy, drama, and his-and-hers action between Renner and Steinfeld
Same for Pugh and the two of them
Good to see D'Onforio again (except see below)
On the downside in this finale, there was too much business set up by prior episodes and resolved unsatisfactorily here:

No explanation of why the watch started all of this
No justification for why Hawkeye was so worried about the Kingpin, especially since the Kingpin knew Clint was sniffing around, but Fisk was more concerned with making an example of Eleanor
No real justification for Maya's abrupt about-face; overall the show seemed a little too concerned with justifying the spin-off she's about to get
No explanation for exactly how dirty Eleanor's hands are, e.g. just how many murders might she have committed? Why did they need Vera Farmiga for this?
Pretty big waste of bringing back the Netflix/D'Onofrio Kingpin if he's really dead (and if not, why bother with what looks like an obvious fake-out?
Overall:

Here and ready for more Steinfeld in the MCU (Pugh, too)
The generally lower stakes, both in terms of plot and in terms of servicing other MCU ambitions, were good for this series
Generally fun series despite not really landing the plot


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

Loved it!


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## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

ima take a few of these&#8230;


cmontyburns said:


> No explanation of why the watch started all of this


I assumed the tracksuits were looking for it based on some past business with Kingpin and Agent 19. Doesn't matter anyway, it's a McGuffin.


> No justification for why Hawkeye was so worried about the Kingpin, especially since the Kingpin knew Clint was sniffing around, but Fisk was more concerned with making an example of Eleanor


Clint is worried about Kingpin tracing Ronin back to him and his family.


> No real justification for Maya's abrupt about-face; overall the show seemed a little too concerned with justifying the spin-off she's about to get


Agreed that Maya's motivation is in the fast lane.


> No explanation for exactly how dirty Eleanor's hands are, e.g. just how many murders might she have committed? Why did they need Vera Farmiga for this?


It was pretty clear to me that Eleanor's husband was in deep with Kingpin and she became a fixer to survive. I figured Kingpin told Eleanor to get rid of Barton; Eleanor called Vera, a broker.

Why did Kingpin finger Barton, specifically? Maybe because of that same past, pre-Avengers business. Maybe the Avengers' fame helped Kingpin figure out who one of those SHIELD agents had been, so he wanted Clint rubbed out.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Another nit re the tracksuits. An army of thugs show up to attack an Avenger in plain sight. They're all wearing ski masks ... but they show up in a fleet of clearly marked Trust-a-Bro trucks.

Oh, and they're all wearing tracksuits.

Somehow I don't think they'd be that hard to ID.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Drewster said:


> ima take a few of these&#8230;
> 
> Why did Kingpin finger Barton, specifically? Maybe because of that same past, pre-Avengers business. Maybe the Avengers' fame helped Kingpin figure out who one of those SHIELD agents had been, so he wanted Clint rubbed out.


I assumed that this took place simultaneously with the end credits scene from Black Widow. That is, Kate ran afoul of the tracksuits. Clint got involved because of Ronin. Kingpin wanted to get rid of them both, not knowing they were the same person. He farmed the job to Eleanor, who farmed it to Val, who farmed it to Yelena.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anyone who thinks Kingpin is dead has never watched television or read a comic book before.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> Anyone who thinks Kingpin is dead has never watched television or read a comic book before.


Yeah, if they show the dead body then at least there's a CHANCE...


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

Bill Reeves said:


> Second, the song from the musical had some references to things we saw in the movies, but which weren't witnessed by the public within the universe. ... but it seems more like the song was written for us, the audience of the MCU, rather than an audience that would have existed within the MCU.


I had that thought too, and of course the song was written "for us", but I just shrugged it off as they had inside man as a consultant on the production. It was fun to watch, regardless.


heySkippy said:


> Anyone who thinks Kingpin is dead has never watched television or read a comic book before.


Did anyone think that? Even for a second?


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

hapster85 said:


> Did anyone think that? Even for a second?


Seems like cmonty and Alan Sepinwall did.



cmontyburns said:


> On the downside in this finale, there was too much business set up by prior episodes and resolved unsatisfactorily here:
> 
> Pretty big waste of bringing back the Netflix/D'Onofrio Kingpin if he's really dead (and if not, why bother with what looks like an obvious fake-out?


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

So, Laura is Agent 19... but is she also "Mockingbird," and if so, does that now definitively confirm Agents of SHIELD is removed from MCU canon? Right now, I'm leaning towards that they're making her Agent 19, but *not* Mockingbird (Bobbi Morse).

What was her watch doing at the Avengers compound anyway?


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

SullyND said:


> Seems like cmonty and Alan Sepinwall did.


I didn't (nor did Sepinwall). I was just accounting for both possibilities -- if he's dead, what a waste of D'Onofrio. And if he's not, why bother with such an obvious ruse? Clearly no one bought it.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I still don't understand:

Who wanted the watch? Maya? Kingpin himself? Why? Why did they want it so much that they broke into the auction violently to get it? If Kingpin wanted it, why not just send a proxy to buy it? How would that watch lead anyone to Laura? In _Endgame_, Avengers compound was HUGE. And someone found a watch in all of that rubble? And how was it there?

None of it makes any sense. And not in the suspension of disbelief, it's a comic book magic doesn't exist kind of way. But the writing doesn't make any sense.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> I didn't (nor did Sepinwall). I was just accounting for both possibilities -- if he's dead, what a waste of D'Onofrio. And if he's not, why bother with such an obvious ruse? Clearly no one bought it.


Echo series.


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

cmontyburns said:


> [*]No explanation of why the watch started all of this
> [*]No justification for why Hawkeye was so worried about the Kingpin, especially since the Kingpin knew Clint was sniffing around, but Fisk was more concerned with making an example of Eleanor


These two go hand-in-hand. The watch could have lead back to Laura and the kids. Same thing with Kingpin, if he discovered that Hawkeye was The Ronin.



> [*]No real justification for Maya's abrupt about-face; overall the show seemed a little too concerned with justifying the spin-off she's about to get


Betrayal. Learning that it was her boss, Kingpin, who put the hit on her father turned her world upside down.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

hapster85 said:


> The watch could have lead back to Laura and the kids.


How?


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

Turtleboy said:


> How?


No idea. The details aren't really pertinent to the story at hand, in my mind. I'm satisfied with it as is.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I still don't understand:
> 
> Who wanted the watch? Maya? Kingpin himself? Why? Why did they want it so much that they broke into the auction violently to get it? If Kingpin wanted it, why not just send a proxy to buy it? How would that watch lead anyone to Laura? In _Endgame_, Avengers compound was HUGE. And someone found a watch in all of that rubble? And how was it there?
> 
> None of it makes any sense. And not in the suspension of disbelief, it's a comic book magic doesn't exist kind of way. But the writing doesn't make any sense.


It could have been made clearer, but it seems that the Ronin suit and sword were recovered along with the watch, which suggests they might have all been together in one place, likely (IMO) all in one secure vault at Avengers Compound where Barton was storing all three items. If they were in some sort of a secure vault, that would explain how it could have survived the destruction of the compound, and all been found together.

If that were the case, if all three were together in the same vault, the watch could connect "Agent 19" to Ronin. If Barton were revealed as Ronin, one could potentially figure out that Agent 19 is someone connected with Barton... and from that figure out that Laura is Agent 19.

In reality, the watch was just a bit of a MacGuffin. It would lead to revealing Laura as Agent 19 because the show says it would. And I'm OK with a MacGuffin in this case. 

I believe that the tracksuits were working for Maya when they went for the watch at the auction. The Ronin suit and sword wouldn't have any additional clues that Maya would need to figure out the identity of Ronin... but the watch would, which is why that was the target of the heist.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

smak said:


> Echo series.


Of course, but since that was virtually the entire reason Maya was in this series, why stop at 95% of the setup?

Overall, this season works best if you focus on the relationships among Clint, Kate, and Yelena and accept that the rest of it is some clanky machinery that allows action to happen.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Can I just say that having the climax of a Disney production take place at the Comcast building, including the destruction of their iconic Christmas tree literally, delightfully evil?


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

LoadStar said:


> It could have been made clearer, but it seems that the Ronin suit and sword were recovered along with the watch, which suggests they might have all been together in one place, likely (IMO) all in one secure vault at Avengers Compound where Barton was storing all three items.


However the watch came to be at the Avengers compound, I don't think it was Clint's doing. When he have Laura the watch back, he said she needed to keep better track of her stuff. Why would he have said that if he'd been the one to put it there?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

It would have been nice to have a flashback scene showing that he carried the watch with him to remember his blipped wife.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Turtleboy said:


> It would have been nice to have a flashback scene showing that he carried the watch with him to remember his blipped wife.


Aaand you're hired. As a writer and general script doctor. Thank you.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Lots of New York love/hate in the final musical number. Most of those lines are missing from transcriptions now popping up on fan sites, but I think I caught the following sung by citizen chorus: "The rent and the garbage are both sky high / But 'I Love NY' is our battle cry! / And you don't move here if you're scared to die", "Yes the city is on the brink / and it may smell, but we like that stink". And they finally got a chuckle out of me with something about "We survived the Eighties here", so we'll survive this. (Eighties New York was a big part of why I moved to California. But I still heart NY.)


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Lots of New York love/hate in the final musical number. Most of those lines are missing from transcriptions now popping up on fan sites, but I think I caught the following sung by citizen chorus: "The rent and the garbage are both sky high / But 'I Love NY' is our battle cry! / And you don't move here if you're scared to die", "Yes the city is on the brink / and it may smell, but we like that stink". And they finally got a chuckle out of me with something about "We survived the Eighties here", so we'll survive this. (Eighties New York was a big part of why I moved to California. But I still heart NY.)


I have to imagine the reference to "rent" was completely intentional and completely tongue-in-cheek. (The lead singer was Adam Pascal, who originated the role of Roger in the musical RENT.)


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

LoadStar said:


> Can I just say that having the climax of a Disney production take place at the Comcast building, including the destruction of their iconic Christmas tree literally, delightfully evil?


Yes, I highly enjoyed that, too (and they did get at least one shot of the "Comcast Building" signage that's right by the front door, complete with NBC logo). Now to wait for a Universal movie that includes Disneyland being destroyed...


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

LoadStar said:


> I have to imagine the reference to "rent" was completely intentional and completely tongue-in-cheek. (The lead singer was Adam Pascal, who originated the role of Roger in the musical RENT.)


I'm sure it was. But the rent really is sky-high there (though it looks reasonable from here in Silicon Valley, lol).

The conductor and others are also well-known on Broadway. I hope the Chitauri and the covid leave them all be now.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Kingpin gets shot so that in the "Echo" series, he's blind.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

jsmeeker said:


> Kingpin gets shot so that in the "Echo" series, he's blind.


You're fired.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

i didn't write that so don't blame me,


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> You're fired.


Don't worry, he'll only be blind for as long as the plot demands it, probably about 2 episodes.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

hapster85 said:


> Betrayal. Learning that it was her boss, Kingpin, who put the hit on her father turned her world upside down.


The Kingpin putting a hit on Echo's father doesn't make much sense. Ronin (aka Hawkeye) killed her father and he wasn't doing contract kills at that time, especially from crime bosses. He was killing people out of anger. I'm sure he would have killed Kingpin if he was around and he could.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

We’re led to believe that Kazi was the informant. Kazi knew that Kingpin wanted Maya’s father out of the way, so he informed Robin about the meeting. Neither Kingpin nor Kazi were there when Ronin swept through.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> Of course, but since that was virtually the entire reason Maya was in this series, why stop at 95% of the setup?
> 
> Overall, this season works best if you focus on the relationships among Clint, Kate, and Yelena and accept that the rest of it is some clanky machinery that allows action to happen.


I think that 5% is a pretty good opening for the Echo series if Kingpin is featured in it, which I am assuming he is.

-smak-


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

No way is Blind Kingpin not in Echo


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Can they remove Agents of SHIELD from MCU canon? Phil Coulson is definitely canon.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> Can they remove Agents of SHIELD from MCU canon? Phil Coulson is definitely canon.


Phil up to an including his death in Avengers is certainly canon.

Everything that happened in AoS, including his return, is questionable at best, always has been - and everything in season 2 and beyond is almost certainly not cannon in the world we know. I say it that way, because it's perfectly possible for the MCU to decide it is canon in some other version of reality, and reference bits from it when convenient. It's, murky at best...


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

AoS can be canon in a different dimension. That could have been what was required to resurrect Coulson. All the previous Spider-Men movies are essentially now MCU canon even though they happened in other dimensions.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

kdmorse said:


> Everything that happened in AoS, including his return, is questionable at best, always has been - and everything in season 2 and beyond is almost certainly not cannon in the world we know.


I'm not sure you would say season 2 "is almost certainly not canon." Yes, there's a certain point on SHIELD where it definitely would deviate from the main MCU continuity, but season 2 still seemed very much connected.

In fact, season 2 episode 20, "Scars," reveals that Coulson and Co. were directly responsible for refurbishing/repairing the helicarrier that Fury then used in the rescue of Sokovia during "Age of Ultron." Fury even mentioned that he "pulled her out of mothballs with a couple old friends," which could be interpreted as obliquely referring to Coulson and co.

In fact, that was the one and only time where events on Agents of SHIELD could be potentially interpreted as flowing back to the main MCU. Every other time there was a connection between the two, it flowed one way, from the movies to the show. Other than that one moment in "Scars," you could erase the entirety of the show from canon and there would be no impact on anything in the MCU.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

LoadStar said:


> "pulled her out of mothballs with a couple old friends," which could be interpreted as obliquely referring to Coulson and co.


They could have said something beyond an oblique reference, but specifically, deliberately, chose not to - while at the same time externally stating clearly that Phil Coulson is dead in the MCU. So... we got AoS fan service, far from straightforward acknowledgment of AoS as cannon. A helicarrier appearing in Age of Ultron doesn't necessarily carry with it a secret underground network of bases run by Patten Oswald clones (robots? I forget). (multiple dimensions / what-if's aside - anything can happen there).

Didn't a book on the development of the MCU come out this year, and specifically name Agent Carter as cannon, and Agents of Shield as non cannon?


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

I'll add that Hawkeye doesn't necessarily contradict AoS. You just have to accept that agent numbers and titles can be retired and picked back up, and poof, no conflict. Like, Captain America.. or as they set up here, Hawkeye... One retired, got a watch, and another picked up the name.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

kdmorse said:


> Didn't a book on the development of the MCU come out this year, and specifically name Agent Carter as cannon, and Agents of Shield as non cannon?


I'm not aware of a book, but Jarvis from AC was the only TV character to cross over to the movies. He was in End Game, so he is definitely cannon.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

The canon discussions are moot. It’s really about the production houses. 

The NetFlix and ABC shows came from the Perlmutter side of Marvel, while the movies were Marvel Studios/Disney/Fiege. The former were assembled so as to fit alongside the movies, but because of contracts and church/state separation they didn’t intermingle. Eventually Perlmutter was expunged, TV production moved under Fiege, and the contracts expired.

Fiege has sad that he thought the NetFlix shows were well-casted for the most part. So we’re now seeing those actors playing their characters here and there.

And of course, the multiverse allows for a LOT of intermingling. The multiverse stuff in Spider-Man: No Way Home doesn’t mean it’s now MCU canon, it just means they exist. Similarly, the Disney/Sony peace means we’ll see MCU Spidey in Sony Spider-Universe productions, and SSU characters in MCU productions.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

kdmorse said:


> I'll add that Hawkeye doesn't necessarily contradict AoS. You just have to accept that agent numbers and titles can be retired and picked back up, and poof, no conflict. Like, Captain America.. or as they set up here, Hawkeye... One retired, got a watch, and another picked up the name.


A person born at least 10 years after SHIELD was founded is agent 19, so I'm pretty sure they reuse agent numbers.

Also agent 13 is 10 years younger than agent 19


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

smak said:


> A person born at least 10 years after SHIELD was founded is agent 19, so I'm pretty sure they reuse agent numbers.
> 
> Also agent 13 is 10 years younger than agent 19


And you would think that an organization the size of SHIELD would have way more than 19 agents.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Does Phil Coulson have a number? Maria Hill?


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

I figure the numbers, like an 00 designation, are reserved for field agents with a very particular set of skills.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Drewster said:


> I figure the numbers, like an 00 designation, are reserved for field agents with a very particular set of skills.


So what number is Liam Neeson?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I kinda hoped Yelena would have accompanied Clint and Kate to his home for Christmas. I think Clint's children would have liked to meet Natasha's sister.

I'll probably be proven wrong but I have a hard time believing a show with Maya as the primary character will be all that interesting, Kingpin or no. She's a tertiary character at best. Then again, I never did comics all that much so she could be a charismatic superstar for all I know.

I really like the New York based Marvel heroes and superheroes. They just seem more "real" than the intergalactic ones. Also, having them in a real city as opposed to the made up DC cities makes it more compelling for me.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I kinda hoped Yelena would have accompanied Clint and Kate to his home for Christmas.


I half expected them to pan and have her show up at Christmas.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Shakhari said:


> And you would think that an organization the size of SHIELD would have way more than 19 agents.


They only have 19 original agents. The rest are all clones (i.e., Patton Oswalt's many characters). 



Drewster said:


> Fiege has sad that he thought the NetFlix shows were well-casted for the most part. So we're now seeing those actors playing their characters here and there.


I believe there was a 2-year moratorium on Marvel having the rights to use any of the Netflix characters after their shows ended. I guess it's probably been at least that long so I'm hoping they revive some of them in the MCU, especially Daredevil. Maybe he'll show up in the Echo spinoff. It would be fitting to have both a deaf and a blind character working together, although I don't think Matt Murdoch would do well at reading sign language.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Maybe he'll show up in the Echo spinoff. It would be fitting to have both a deaf and a blind character working together, although I don't think Matt Murdoch would do well at reading sign language.



He'd be able to "read" the fluctuations in the air caused by her finger, hand and arm movements. MAybe?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> He'd be able to "read" the fluctuations in the air caused by her finger, hand and arm movements. Maybe?


His radar sense is remarkably detailed (judging from his efficiency as a fighter), so I suspect he'd have no problem with sign language.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Maya/Echo actually started out as a character in the Daredevil books about twenty years ago, raised by Kingpin after he killed her father. I had to search for that info, and also learned that the actress, Alaqua Cox, is actually Deaf and this is her first acting role. Her prosthetic leg is real, and not an aspect of the original character.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Maya/Echo actually started out as a character in the Daredevil books about twenty years ago, raised by Kingpin after he killed her father. I had to search for that info, and also learned that the actress, Alaqua Cox, is actually Deaf and this is her first acting role. Her prosthetic leg is real, and not an aspect of the original character.


And currently Echo is possibly the most powerful person in the Marvel Universe, having become the latest vessel of the Phoenix Force.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And currently Echo is possibly the most powerful person in the Marvel Universe, having become the latest vessel of the Phoenix Force.


OK. I don't think this Echo will get there for a while though, if ever.

I sure am hoping they do a show about Namor at some point. (Not a topic change if you're familiar with the outline of the latest Echo stories. I was not.)


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

cheesesteak said:


> I kinda hoped Yelena would have accompanied Clint and Kate to his home for Christmas. I think Clint's children would have liked to meet Natasha's sister.





SullyND said:


> I half expected them to pan and have her show up at Christmas.


Considering how Clint loved Natasha like a sister, his kids called her aunt, I was expecting him to try to explain some of this to Yelena, and how a part of him died when she sacrificed himself.

Natasha integrated herself with Clint's family so I half expected her to see what the fuss was about and make an appearance.

I expect they have plans show this in a future project, considering how he's passing the mantle of "Hawkeye" to Kate perhaps in the next team up he'll be sacrificed by the writers/plot and Yelena and Kate will bond over his loss and then she'll be introduced to the rest of the Bartons.

I think the watch was just a mcguffin, but perhaps it's a future plot fodder if Clint does bite the dust in ominous circumstances (not in a team up), and Laura, Kate and Yelena (girl power) all are searching for who took him out.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robojerk said:


> I expect they have plans show this in a future project, considering how he's passing the mantle of "Hawkeye" to Kate perhaps in the next team up he'll be sacrificed by the writers/plot and Yelena and Kate will bond over his loss and then she'll be introduced to the rest of the Bartons.


In the comics Clint and Kate are both Hawkeye. Which is fun, but what comic book fans geek out over might be too confusing for a general television audience...


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> In the comics Clint and Kate are both Hawkeye. Which is fun, but what comic book fans geek out over might be too confusing for a general television audience...


Seems to be what they were getting at in the final dialog, with Kate suggesting hero names for herself, and then Clint saying "I have an idea", whereupon they cut to the ending "Hawkeye" logo.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Seems to be what they were getting at in the final dialog, with Kate suggesting hero names for herself, and then Clint saying "I have an idea", whereupon they cut to the ending "Hawkeye" logo.


I suspect in the MCU Clint is retiring and Kate is picking up the mantle...


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect in the MCU Clint is retiring and Kate is picking up the mantle...


Agreed, that's likely. Especially since Jeremy's getting to be about the age when for most people all the Ibuprofen in the world won't get you through those action scenes, lol.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

I saw something yesterday&#8230;


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475017293344083969


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Most excellent


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I kinda hoped Yelena would have accompanied Clint and Kate to his home for Christmas. I think Clint's children would have liked to meet Natasha's sister.


I think this would have been too early and showed poor judgment by Clint. Yelena was trying to kill him just hours before. He was able to placate her and she seemed fine in the moment. But she's a former Red Room assassin and probably a bit unpredictable. For all Clint knows, as soon as Yelena gets back in touch with her handler (Val?), she'll again be convinced to go after Clint. So it's probably best that Clint doesn't reveal the secret location where his wife and kids are, at least not this soon after meeting Yelena.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Even in the best of cases, one wouldn't go from "I want to kill you dead" directly to "Let's hang out on Christmas morning."

Well, I take that back. I don't know what your family get-togethers for Christmas are like.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

I’m not saying that family gatherings are incomplete without a trip to the emergency room….


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Just finished watching the season. I know it's a comic book, but the last episode just felt way too cartoony to me. All those track suit guys and our heroes needed to use a bajilion special Wile-E-Coyote Acme arrows just to go up the steps?

Kingpin "died" like 3 or 4 times and I'm assuming still isn't dead. This is the bad guy from Into the Spider-verse I think?

They were leaning pretty hard on the sword guy being bad so I predicted it was going to be the mom from pretty early on.

It still was an interesting show and I thought it was fun but ultimately I like Wandavision best and Loki second best. Maybe it could come down to style. Both those shows were oozing with style and this one was a more generic setting in NYC.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Drewster said:


> I'm not saying that family gatherings are incomplete without a trip to the emergency room&#8230;.


So my childhood and my Aunt's 4th of July "rumbles". One of the cousins usually ended up in the ER from either Cherry Bombs going afoul, someone slipping on the pool deck or falling off a retaining wall.

But we aren't a crime family&#8230;


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Liked the series a lot. The final symbolic burning of the Ronin suit told me that Clint would never slip back into being that person. And his wife being a (former) shield operative tells
Me Clint’s story still is not done being told.

So, what’s next?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

DancnDude said:


> It still was an interesting show and I thought it was fun but ultimately I like Wandavision best and Loki second best. Maybe it could come down to style. Both those shows were oozing with style and this one was a more generic setting in NYC.


For me, the first two episodes of Wandavision soured me for the rest of the series. If I ever re-binge all of these series the one thing I will never do is watch the first two episodes of Wandavision again.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

DancnDude said:


> Kingpin "died" like 3 or 4 times and I'm assuming still isn't dead. This is the bad guy from Into the Spider-verse I think?


If they draw more material from the books he's not likely to be dead, but he may be blinded for a while. And yes he was the bad guy from that Spidey movie and also the Netflix Daredevil series. In the books he battles those two along with Hawkeye, the Punisher, and Maya/Echo.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Liked the series a lot. The final symbolic burning of the Ronin suit told me that Clint would never slip back into being that person. And his wife being a (former) shield operative tells
> Me Clint's story still is not done being told.
> 
> So, what's next?


All I could think about was how hard it would be to clean that grill, lol.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> For me, the first two episodes of Wandavision soured me for the rest of the series. If I ever re-binge all of these series the one thing I will never do is watch the first two episodes of Wandavision again.


Helps to be a fan of "golden age TV" sitcoms. I have many Dick Van **** Show episodes memorized. ("Oh, Robbb!") Without that context, making people sit through those two episodes is just cruel.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

My rankings in order of goodness, 

Loki
WandaVision
Hawkeye
Falcon.

This does not mean that Falcon is bad. It's just less good than the others.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> This does not mean that Falcon is bad. It's just less good than the others.


More traditional...more ordinary.

But very good at being what it is!


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Each series is very different, and I totally enjoyed each differently.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DancnDude said:


> Just finished watching the season. I know it's a comic book, but the last episode just felt way too cartoony to me. All those track suit guys and our heroes needed to use a bajilion special Wile-E-Coyote Acme arrows just to go up the steps?


I agree with this. Also, are we to assume they killed all those tracksuit guys, vs. just stunning them? If not dead, they sure stayed motionless on the ice for a long time.

Also, I thought it was convenient that there's this huge battle at Rockefeller Plaza with explosions and deaths and it lasts for a long time, and then when it's all over, the police show up and arrest Kate's mom, yet no police seem to be worrying about securing the area, figuring out who caused all this destruction, detaining potential suspects until they can do an investigation, etc. They just roll up and arrest Mrs. Bishop like they've already done all the necessary investigation on her, and there's nothing else going on around the area that requires their services.


cheesesteak said:


> For me, the first two episodes of Wandavision soured me for the rest of the series. If I ever re-binge all of these series the one thing I will never do is watch the first two episodes of Wandavision again.


Wow, I loved those first two episodes. A great nod to old, classic sitcoms, while incorporating in lots of winks and nods to MCU fans. And plus, during those first two episodes we, as viewers, were totally in the dark about what was going on so it was really interesting to sit through and try to figure out what/why/how, etc. After having seen the whole series, I suspect the first couple episodes might seem a little more tedious as you already know what's coming and they're not really advancing the story much.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I would go 

Loki
Hawkeye
Wandavision
Falcon

A couple of big missteps lowered Wandavision for me

-smak-


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I never got into Loki. 

Hawkeye
Wandavision
Falcon
Loki


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

You all really dislike "What If....?"

Does not even warrant a ranking


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

jsmeeker said:


> Does not even warrant a ranking


I don't see a measureable difference between all five. I can't rank them.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> You all really dislike "What If....?"
> 
> Does not even warrant a ranking


I think most aren't including "What If...?" since it's not a single, continuing story but just a bunch of one-off episodes (until it isn't).

I'm not usually good at ranking stuff, but I'd say of the five so far, I'd put Falcon at the bottom.


----------



## Grasshopper AZ (Apr 29, 2005)

We really liked Hawkeye. 

For us its- 
Hawkeye 
Falcon
Loki
Wandavision 

But in reality we liked them all so the rankings don't mean much.


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I agree with this. Also, are we to assume they killed all those tracksuit guys, vs. just stunning them? If not dead, they sure stayed motionless on the ice for a long time.
> 
> Also, I thought it was convenient that there's this huge battle at Rockefeller Plaza with explosions and deaths and it lasts for a long time, and then when it's all over, the police show up and arrest Kate's mom, yet no police seem to be worrying about securing the area, figuring out who caused all this destruction, detaining potential suspects until they can do an investigation, etc. They just roll up and arrest Mrs. Bishop like they've already done all the necessary investigation on her, and there's nothing else going on around the area that requires their services.


Just finished the series and while I liked it, there were a few things that bugged me. Like you mentioned, there were a bazillion tracksuit thugs fighting it out at Rockefeller and no cops were around at all? And why aren't the tracksuit thugs better armed? Kingpin can't afford guns for his low level enforcers?

Also, I know that it's suppose to be a lighthearted series but Clint being stuck in the tree was ridiculous. Whatever happened to the master tactician? And if he's really such a great fighter, why does he keep getting pummeled?

And how in the world did Kazi catch an arrow? Does he have powers? Is it really that easy to catch an arrow in flight?


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> You all really dislike "What If....?"
> 
> Does not even warrant a ranking


I forgot about it! But also not part of the main MCU.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

DevdogAZ said:


> I agree with this. Also, are we to assume they killed all those tracksuit guys, vs. just stunning them? If not dead, they sure stayed motionless on the ice for a long time.
> 
> Also, I thought it was convenient that there's this huge battle at Rockefeller Plaza with explosions and deaths and it lasts for a long time, and then when it's all over, the police show up and arrest Kate's mom, yet no police seem to be worrying about securing the area, figuring out who caused all this destruction, detaining potential suspects until they can do an investigation, etc. They just roll up and arrest Mrs. Bishop like they've already done all the necessary investigation on her, and there's nothing else going on around the area that requires their services.


Some of the Bros were no doubt killed, others just injured or stunned.

As far as the lack of a police presence, it's a superhero show, not a police procedural, so no, I don't expect any type of presence beyond what is needed to advance the plot. In this case, they weren't needed until the end, for cleanup. The heros are always going to be the center of the action when it comes to the crime fighting.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I forgot about it!


Thats not a good sign.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> Thats not a good sign.


Not a good sign for What If? Or for my mental acuity?


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

logic88 said:


> there were a bazillion tracksuit thugs fighting it out at Rockefeller and no cops were around at all? And why aren't the tracksuit thugs better armed? Kingpin can't afford guns for his low level enforcers?


Agreed that was ridiculous to see so many Tracksuits pouring in with no cops around. In reality they wouldn't even have been allowed to stop their trucks on the street. But at least one batch of their guns was pulled away and stuck to flagpoles by Clint's electromagnetic arrow. Or something.



logic88 said:


> And how in the world did Kazi catch an arrow? Does he have powers? Is it really that easy to catch an arrow in flight?


I bet there were some deleted scenes that would have better established that character. We barely know he's supposed to be a sharpshooter, but apparently he's so sharp-eyed he can shoot and catch arrows. In the comics he was a former circus performer who wore scary clown makeup, so there's that.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I forgot about it! But also not part of the main MCU.


Well, it is now that the MCU is a multi-verse!


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> Not a good sign for What If? Or for my mental acuity?


It's a bad sign for Marvel Studios that so many people have so quickly forgotten "What If...?" Was it really that bad for so many?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Not a good sign for What If? Or for my mental acuity?


Yes


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> It's a bad sign for Marvel Studios that so many people have so quickly forgotten "What If...?" Was it really that bad for so many?


I know my daughter is a huge MCU junkie. I asked her what she thought of What If...? and she said she only got through the first half of the first episode and turned it off because she couldn't stand the animation style (and she loved Into the Spiderverse). So this is just a single anecdote, but I wonder whether a lot of fans simply didn't watch What If...? because they thought it wasn't as important to the MCU due to the animation or because they thought the fact that these stories didn't really "happen" meant it wasn't as important to watch these for continuity.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I know my daughter is a huge MCU junkie. I asked her what she thought of What If...? and she said she only got through the first half of the first episode and turned it off because she couldn't stand the animation style (and she loved Into the Spiderverse). So this is just a single anecdote, but I wonder whether a lot of fans simply didn't watch What If...? because they thought it wasn't as important to the MCU due to the animation or because they thought the fact that these stories didn't really "happen" meant it wasn't as important to watch these for continuity.


What's interesting is that it seems they are more important than they seemed at the time (e.g., in the Doctor Strange trailer


Spoiler



the evil Doctor Strange from What If shows up


).


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Can’t really rank them as they are all different. In my case I did not look forward to “Loki”, but really enjoyed it. Loved “Falcon and the Winter Soldier”, “WandaVision” gave us “Agatha” so all is great. “What If” was interesting. “Hawkeye” was great. So not a stinker in the lot.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What's interesting is that it seems they are more important than they seemed at the time (e.g., in the Doctor Strange trailer
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Yes, that's why I said they didn't seem to be part of the MCU continuity (until they did).


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I think it’s easier to rank what If episodes to other what if episodes versus the live action shows.


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

jsmeeker said:


> It's a bad sign for Marvel Studios that so many people have so quickly forgotten "What If...?" Was it really that bad for so many?


I've only watched the 1st and 4th episodes, but enjoyed both. But to be honest, I probably wouldn't have gone back and watched the 4th this afternoon, had it not been mentioned in a thread here in relation to the new Dr Strange teaser


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

hapster85 said:


> I've only watched the 1st and 4th episodes, but enjoyed both. But to be honest, I probably wouldn't have gone back and watched the 4th this afternoon, had it not been mentioned in a thread here in relation to the new Dr Strange teaser


I'd suggest watching the others that came after that Dr. Strange episode as well. They present some concepts that I think will play out very soon in the MCU.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Wow, I loved those first two episodes. A great nod to old, classic sitcoms, while incorporating in lots of winks and nods to MCU fans. And plus, during those first two episodes we, as viewers, were totally in the dark about what was going on so it was really interesting to sit through and try to figure out what/why/how, etc. After having seen the whole series, I suspect the first couple episodes might seem a little more tedious as you already know what's coming and they're not really advancing the story much.


Canned laughter at things that aren't funny immediately turns me off. I have no idea how people can watch Chuck Lorre sitcoms.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Canned laughter at things that aren't funny immediately turns me off. I have no idea how people can watch Chuck Lorre sitcoms.


Well in this case, the canned laughter wasn't added to signal "what's funny", it was to add to the authenticity.


----------



## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

Oh god. Can we please NOT do the laugh track diversion?

Please?


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Well in this case, the canned laughter wasn't added to signal "what's funny", it was to add to the authenticity.


And it wasn't "canned". The first 2 episodes of WV were filmed in front of a live studio audience.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

morac said:


> And it wasn't "canned". The first 2 episodes of WV were filmed in front of a live studio audience.


Please refer to post #311.


----------



## Doggie Bear (Jan 16, 2008)

My ranking:

1) Hawkeye: strong across all episodes with little to no dropoff; great chemistry between Jeremy Renner and Hailee Steinfeld; introduces a new character that I most want to see again (Kate Bishop).

2) Falcon and Winter Solider: I like spy thrillers, so this naturally appealed to me, but it sagged a bit in the middle, and the whole uber-villain twist didn't make too much sense.

3) WandaVision: definitely unique and took chances, but a little too weird for my very conventional tastes.

4) Loki: I would rank it higher but did not like the way it ended.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Agreed that was ridiculous to see so many Tracksuits pouring in with no cops around. In reality they wouldn't even have been allowed to stop their trucks on the street. But at least one batch of their guns was pulled away and stuck to flagpoles by Clint's electromagnetic arrow. Or something.
> .


I had a much bigger issue with the scene where Kingpin is talking to Eleanor in the backseat of her car, then Kate distracts him and they fight about five feet from the car with the car out of frame, then suddenly, as if to "shock the audience", Kate's mom RAMS him right into FAO Schwartz at 50 miles an hour. So while being five feet away from the most cunning street level villain of all time, she got out of the back seat, threw the driver's dead body out of the front seat, started the car, drove it across the street, did a three point turn, AND had enough time to get a ton of speed in order to crash into him, despite being perpendicular in the road... all while Kate and Kingpin were three feet away and didn't notice??

I'm not a big "nitpick the action" guy, but this was one of the most clumsily shot/edited scenes I think I've ever seen. It was done purely for "oh no way! it looked like Kingpin was about to beat Kate but BAM!!!".. It wasn't surprising because it was completely stupid. I was surprised this was the same show that filmed that awesome one-take care chase in episode 2.

Overall I liked the show, but the biggest misstep for me was the fake drama around Yelena wanting to kill Clint. There was zero suspense in this, and from the outset it made no sense from any angle. In Black Widow, there were several conversations where she was told that Clint was Natasha's best friend. Over and over. And other MCU stories indicate that the world knows how the blip was reversed, so it would be public knowledge what actually happened. I just found the entire thing stupid because it didn't make sense with what had been shown before. IT would have made more sense to me if she showed up and it _looked _ like she was there to kill him, but then she says something like "Someone hired me to kill you, I wanted to warn you" etc. The entire arc felt like a waste of time.

I'm also confused about the meaning behind his wife's Rolex. I guess t hat will be explained at some point but they spent six episodes talking about it then revealed it had a shield symbol on it, and that's it. They also dropped the ball by having Hawkeye afraid of Kingpin for six episodes, with what seemed like a very specific and significant backstory, only to have them never even interact. Why was Laura so terrified of Kingpin? Why did Kingpin want that Rolex? There seemed to be a history, but instead they wasted the whole last dramatic fight scene on Yelena, and Hawkeye never even SAW Kingpin...

Stuff like that made me feel like I wasted six hours lol. I love the MCU and I love the interconnected stories of the movies and shows, but they're starting to do what I was afraid of in the beginning - they're spending way too much energy trying to be cool and "connecting" everything, but it's at the sacrifice of telling complete stories.... instead of having a true ending, everything is just being used to set up everything else. They also didn't have one line explaining why Kingpin took an arrow to the chest and punched Kate across an entire building... clearly he's not just human anymore. But nothing... "Tune in to the next show to find out!". meh.

Oh well. on to the next one!


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

I agree about the car and the Yelena thing @mrdazzo7 but I went ahead and willingly suspended disbelief. Still, speaking of action scenes, if her baton really was as spikey as it looked, Clint would have been much more torn up for sure.

As for the Rolex reveal and Kingpin's seeming invincibility, like the missing background on Kazi these things cry out for much more story development than would fit in the six episodes they were forced to crunch this into. Without that, some Marvel background or some fleet-fingered Googling is required.

As discussed by others up-thread, the "19" on the watch may indicate Laura is the (or a) retired Agent 19. That may be further developed in future shows. But apparently we're just supposed to know that Kingpin wears Kevlar armor under his suits, and under that he is - in his own words - "300 pounds of solid muscle" that can even take on Spiderman.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

When he took the arrow hit, I figured it was Kevlar for sure. But then he got hit by a car and thrown through a massive storefront, then he got up immediately and punched Kate a good 40 feet away into a wall. It definitely seemed to me like they were setting it up to say he maybe got some upgrades. To me it would actually make perfect sense - he's the single most arrogant person in Marvel and yet in the face of Avengers and aliens, he'd probably feel pathetic. I could see him undergoing some kind of backroom super soldier program to bring him in line with what's going on in the world. Maybe it'll get explored. 

Speaking of Kingpin, I want to add one final rant about his last scene. I'm annoyed at Marvel for using one of my top 5 most hated cliches: The whole "a gun is pointed at someone, the camera pans away and we hear the gunshot off screen". I can't express my level of hate for this overused, suspense killing cliche. It should be banned. Everyone knows it's a fake out so there is zero drama in it. They want to create suspense when he's eventually revealed to be alive but it's a fail all around - no one thinks he's dead. Just kill someone on screen or come up with a different way to end the show because there is no drama in this cliche. 

Sorry... once I start writing, the rage just comes pouring out. I hate lazy crap like that. Do better, Disney.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

If you saw all the complaints all over social media you wouldn’t think everybody knows he’s alive.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

smak said:


> If you saw all the complaints all over social media you wouldn't think everybody knows he's alive.


haha... come on now, people. They should have their TV Fan street cred taken away. I think I've only seen one instance in 20 years where they did this cliché and the person really was dead, and even in that case I was convinced right up until the show ended that the person was going to be found to be alive. But that's one case out hundreds.

no way would they bring back this specific actor as this specific character, just for one episode, and just to kill him with a lame gunshot offscreen. Personally, I'm psyched they're starting to bring elements of the Netflix shows in - I though Kingpin was fantastically done on Daredevil and is easily one of the most interesting characters out there... Can't wait to see where else he pops up.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

It's been a while since I've watched Daredevil, but wasn't one of the plot points that Kingpin had the guy who made the DD suit line all of his suits with the same kevlar-like material?


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

Shakhari said:


> It's been a while since I've watched Daredevil, but wasn't one of the plot points that Kingpin had the guy who made the DD suit line all of his suits with the same kevlar-like material?


He took the first arrow in the Hawaiian shirt, which it definitely penetrated. So whatever stopped the arrow was underneath. If that was kevlar or just his tougher than normal skin, I've no idea, but he swiped it away in annoyance, not pain.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Drewster said:


> Oh god. Can we please NOT do the laugh track diversion?
> 
> Please?


As a courtesy and since you asked nicely, I shall not start my usual rant on the subject


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

I didn't have a problem with the car scene. Looked at it again a few minutes ago. The impact was hard enough to deploy the airbags but not hard enough to breach the wall, or even do significant damage to the car. It worked within the given context.

As far as the off screen gunshot, would it have really been any different had it happened on screen? He got hit by a car on screen and didn't die. Blown up a few moments later on screen and didn't die. So on screen or off, we know getting shot isn't the end of the character either.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Shakhari said:


> It's been a while since I've watched Daredevil, but wasn't one of the plot points that Kingpin had the guy who made the DD suit line all of his suits with the same kevlar-like material?


I'm pretty sure Kevlar doesn't protect against point blank explosions.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

mrdazzo7 said:


> In Black Widow, there were several conversations where she was told that Clint was Natasha's best friend. Over and over. And other MCU stories indicate that the world knows how the blip was reversed, so it would be public knowledge what actually happened. I just found the entire thing stupid because it didn't make sense with what had been shown before. IT would have made more sense to me if she showed up and it _looked _ like she was there to kill him, but then she says something like "Someone hired me to kill you, I wanted to warn you" etc. The entire arc felt like a waste of time.


Well, except that the Contessa told Yelena that Clint was responsible for Natasha's death.
Now whether or not is Yelena should have believed her is up to debate but it wasn't like Yelena got it into her head all on her own.

Also, how much of the detail is actually public anyways?
The broad strokes are but how much of the details?

And it's not like Yelena works in an industry where the public isn't told the truth every time.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Also, how much of the detail is actually public anyways?
> The broad strokes are but how much of the details?


All the details were covered in the musical.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> All the details were covered in the musical.


Maybe Yelena isn't in to musicals?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dianebrat said:


> Maybe Yelena isn't in to musicals?


I bet she always goes.

But ironically.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

The musical had Ant-Man at the Battle of New York so it probably also had Clint killing Natasha.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

cmontyburns said:


> The musical had Ant-Man at the Battle of New York so it probably also had *Clint killing Natasha*.


Is that you Yelena Belova??


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> Is that you Yelena Belova??


The joke is that Ant-Man wasn't at the Battle of New York.


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

cmontyburns said:


> The musical had Ant-Man at the Battle of New York so it probably also had Clint killing Natasha.


Never mind


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

A short article with some backstory on the writing of the Musical number:

'Rogers: The Musical' composer reveals a deleted 'Hawkeye' scene

Including this tidbit:

_*Who decided to put Ant-Man in despite him not being present at the Battle of New York?*
That came from Rhys and Marvel, as something to further aggravate Hawkeye as he watched the show, and also as a comment on how movies and articles and people always get something wrong._


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Interesting. 

Ant man was not there for the reason I thought.


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## Drewster (Oct 26, 2000)

kdmorse said:


> Including this tidbit:
> 
> _*Who decided to put Ant-Man in despite him not being present at the Battle of New York?*
> That came from Rhys and Marvel, as something to further aggravate Hawkeye as he watched the show, and also as a comment on how movies and articles and people always get something wrong._


I figured it was done in the spirit of how Broadway adaptations can be great on stage, but also so very, very wrong.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Ant man was not there for the reason I thought.


They snubbed him, because he was an original Avenger.

-smak-


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

We just finished watching Hawkeye last night, and this is now our favorite of the Marvel Disney TV series we have watched. My wife disliked WandaVision but I loved it. We both liked Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and both disliked Loki. We have not watched What If...

I did find it a bit unbelievable that Clint and Kate could, in one evening, assemble a bunch of Clint's special arrows, including a "Pym" one (amusing when that was used.) 

I also appreciated that when Clint and Kate got injured, their cuts didn't magically disappear by the next scene. But I think Clint would have been much more beat up by Yelena than he appeared.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

I've been in catch-up mode and finally watched episodes 3, 4, 5 and 6 this week...

The finale was a lot of fun... Everything prior to the last episode was entertaining, but not super compelling...

With that finale, I am looking forward to a second season (if they end up having one)...


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## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

No one talks about Ant Man, no, no.


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