# Miss my Tivo - any for sale?



## newboy (Dec 29, 2004)

Hi Y'all, 

Apologies for being lazy and not searching the forum correctly but i was hoping someone may have a Tivo for sale. Any condition as i quite enjoy upgrading.

I did have one but sold it as short on cash, but now i REALLY miss it!!

Anyone help?

Thanks
Danny


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Have you considered eBay?

Alternatively, my friendly competitor Dave Healey (healeydave on this forum) of www.tivoland.com usually has 'graded' machines for sale


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

www.ebay.co.uk
www.tivoheaven.com
www.tivoland.com

SNAP!


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Thanks for the plug Carl but I don't sell TiVo boxes anymore as the hassle/profit equation just doesn't add up when you have to get them from eBay in the first place 

However, I assume Dave has (or had) a supply of boxes from another source....


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## newboy (Dec 29, 2004)

cwaring said:


> www.ebay.co.uk
> www.tivoheaven.com
> www.tivoland.com
> 
> SNAP!


thanks for the help, they're still really expensive aren't they.

looking at ebay.com and they're like $60 - that about £40 over there!!


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Yeah, I've got an untouched TiVo lying on its side in the spare room. All reset back to factory conditions etc etc .. Make me an offer I can't refuse


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Everything in America is cheaper.

They're the most powerful nation on Earth and they use their imperialistic power to subjugate poorer, weaker nations to sell them goods and raw materials at knock-down prices...
and they pass the savings on to you! 

The U.S.A. also uses its influence in the World Trade Organisation (WTO) to distort World trade in its favour, usually at the expense of poorer nations.

Further Reading

Most of these are links to respected campaign groups;
see what they have to say about the issues.

*Oxfam*
*friends of the earth international*
*World Development Movement*
*B.B.C.*


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

So it's nothing to do with fact that there's a bigger population in the US then, so they can sell things cheaper as there's more people to buy them?


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

cwaring said:


> So it's nothing to do with fact that there's a bigger population in the US then, so they can sell things cheaper as there's more people to buy them?


Couldn't possibly have to do with having by far the worlds best productivity.


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## TheBear (Feb 21, 2001)

ThreeSoFar said:


> Couldn't possibly have to do with having by far the worlds best productivity.


Nope.

"Norway is the most productive country in the world. The next is a surprising and nearly always annoying, France. Belgium is third, Ireland fourth. Italy is sixth, Austria seventh and the U.S.? The U.S. trails at eighth"

http://www.americandreamproject.org/big_ideas_companies.php


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## rwtomkins (Jul 14, 2003)

The cost of doing business here is much higher, too. Real estate is more expensive because of planning restrictions and high population density, labour costs are higher because of social security etc and transport costs are much higher because of fuel duties and congestion.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

newboy said:


> thanks for the help, they're still really expensive aren't they.
> 
> looking at ebay.com and they're like $60 - that about £40 over there!!


No its just because a Tivo S1 model in the UK is still a current model and the only Tivo model that you can get that works here while in the USA its an old model and buyers all want a Tivo S2 or S3. Also the Tivo won't sell at those prices on Ebay US. Prices always triple or more in the last few minutes of the auction which you don't see unless you are bidding.

I think you really need to re-examine your finances as the acquisition and running costs of Tivo are pretty cheap compared to subscribing to Sky long term. And if you have Tivo there is really no need to be a Sky subscriber because you can pick up so many programs worth watching off the Free to Air channels.

What age are you as if you have to run a home or a car you should realise that running a Tivo is not exactly one of life's biggest expenses in relation to the many potential benefits.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> And if you have Tivo there is really no need to be a Sky subscriber because you can pick up so many programs worth watching off the Free to Air channels.


Depending on the sort of programme you like to watch, I would say that that necessarily the case


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## chimaera (Nov 13, 2000)

I've got one which I never quite get round to putting on eBay - the RGB output doesn't work but composite does, so maybe it would make a good bedroom TiVo, and it has a lifetime sub.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

chimaera said:


> I've got one which I never quite get round to putting on eBay - the RGB output doesn't work but composite does, so maybe it would make a good bedroom TiVo, and it has a lifetime sub.


You sure the RGB fault isn't software related and the sort of thing a complete disk reimage might correct?


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## chimaera (Nov 13, 2000)

Pete77 said:


> You sure the RGB fault isn't software related and the sort of thing a complete disk reimage might correct?


It's definitely not a software problem because it had an upgraded disk in it until recently, with identical results. It now has the original low mileage 40GB disk back in it.


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

I have one with a Life time sub, but no remote and what I beleive to be a knacker drive (bllue screens), would let it go for the price of the sub, but buyer would have to collect.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

JonMace said:


> I have one with a Life time sub, but no remote and what I beleive to be a knacker drive (bllue screens), would let it go for the price of the sub, but buyer would have to collect.


A bit much for a Tivo that is non working when you have already recouped the sub more than twice over in the last five years. I have seen some highly specced boxes with a Cachecard and 512MB of RAM and a large hard drive and a Lifetime Sub sell on Ebay for only just over £300.

For a knackered box with a Lifetime Sub I think £150 is realy the absolute most you should be asking and even that is pricey. Especially when you can give no guarantee to the buyer about what is wrong with the box.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

newboy said:


> thanks for the help, they're still really expensive aren't they.
> 
> looking at ebay.com and they're like $60 - that about £40 over there!!


I can walk to my corner shop and buy a pencil for 10p.


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> A bit much for a Tivo that is non working when you have already recouped the sub more than twice over in the last five years. I have seen some highly specced boxes with a Cachecard and 512MB of RAM and a large hard drive and a Lifetime Sub sell on Ebay for only just over £300.
> 
> For a knackered box with a Lifetime Sub I think £150 is realy the absolute most you should be asking and even that is pricey. Especially when you can give no guarantee to the buyer about what is wrong with the box.


I don't think that we are allowed to discuss sales here, so I will not continue the conversation here, but any interested parties can PM me. I stress that I would not rip anyone off.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

JonMace said:


> I don't think that we are allowed to discuss sales here, so I will not continue the conversation here, but any interested parties can PM me. I stress that I would not rip anyone off.


OK fair enough. I'm just pointing out that although you paid £200 for your Lifetime Sub its a bit much to expect to get all of that back when you have already consumed a lot of its value and Tivo might only continue to operate the UK EPG service for another 18 months to 2 years.

People get carried away on Ebay sometimes when they are trying to outbid each other. I saw an unmodified but fully working box with a Lifetime Sub and remote control and IR wands go for about £240 the other day on Ebay because the two bidders who wanted it bid it up from £60 in the last few minutes. But they really shouldn't have been prepared to bid more than about £170.

The well specified boxes on Ebay are actually the best buys usually.


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

As I say would be quite happy to discuss via PM and would listen to "sensible offers"


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## rwtomkins (Jul 14, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> OK fair enough. I'm just pointing out that although you paid £200 for your Lifetime Sub its a bit much to expect to get all of that back when you have already consumed a lot of its value and Tivo might only continue to operate the UK EPG service for another 18 months to 2 years.


Lifetime means lifetime. Surely if TiVo were attempt to renege on this promise by cancelling the UK EPG service, they would be forced to refund the lifetime subs of all remaining lifetime subscribers.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

They're being rather generous as is. It was defined as the "lifetime of the box" not us personally. 

With our drives failing and us replacing them without their involvement, they're not doing bad by us by still providing the service, really!


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

rwtomkins said:


> Lifetime means lifetime. Surely if TiVo were attempt to renege on this promise by cancelling the UK EPG service, they would be forced to refund the lifetime subs of all remaining lifetime subscribers.


Surely that would then mean that you had effectively got the Tivo service free for however many years you've used it. Yeah, that's gonna happen


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

rwtomkins said:


> Lifetime means lifetime. Surely if TiVo were attempt to renege on this promise by cancelling the UK EPG service, they would be forced to refund the lifetime subs of all remaining lifetime subscribers.


Presumably if they withdrew the Tivo Service to everyone in the UK that would end the Lifetime of the box?

Anyhow how do you plan to sue an American company that no longer has a UK representative office or subsidiary? Unfortunately the Small Claims Court looks as though it would have no jurisdiction in this situation.

However as long as we are dealing with the original Tivo Inc I think we are pretty safe that service will continue, especially as long as there remains a possibility they may wish to re-enter the UK marketplace. The danger to our service would come if one someone else like Rupert Murdoch ever managed to take Tivo over.

However I suspect the recent launch of Sky HD will have caused quite a few Tivo remaining monthly subs to fall by the wayside and the boxes concerned to be retired into cupboards. One would hope they would all these boxes would be re-sold on Ebay to other Tivo customers but given how much dosh you need to have to afford Sky HD at all I honestly think many owners of these boxes will just desubscribe them and hang on to them.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Surely that would then mean that you had effectively got the Tivo service free for however many years you've used it. Yeah, that's gonna happen


That model does work for supporting the old customers with a Lifetime service if the company has a constantly expanding customer base and newer versions of its product to tempt the customers of the old boxes to upgrade to a new one and pay them more money. So the model works in the USA but is more problematic in the UK obviously.


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## rwtomkins (Jul 14, 2003)

You may not consider they owe long time users like us very much but don't forget they're still selling new lifetime subs to new users in the UK. I don't think they'd be increasing their litigation exposure like that if they had it in mind to try and renege on their contracts.

I should think any 1-800-LAWYER in the US would be happy to sue on behalf of UK owners on a no-win, no-fee basis.

My guess is they'll continue the UK EPG service until the technology becomes obsolete. That is, as Pete77 said in the first place - in about 18 months to 2 years!


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## grhm (Nov 8, 2004)

Where does this 18 months to 2 years obsolescence figure come from?

Not criticising, just asking.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Thin air, AFAIK.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

grhm said:


> Where does this 18 months to 2 years obsolescence figure come from?


Nowhere other than that in two years time it will be over 8 years since the UK Tivo service was launched and 6 years since the last boxes were sold in UK retailers. So by then most Tivo customers would have enjoyed Tivo Lifetime service worth at least 250% more than the cost of their Lifetime Sub.

Ultimately it all comes down to whether Tivo are still actually making a profit from those who are still paying monthly subs in relation to their ongoing annual costs. As long as the service receives more revenue per annum than it has costs it is a dead cert it will continue unless Tivo is taken over by someone like Sky who want to close down the UK Tivo Service for political reasons.

However if and when continuing to operate UK Tivo Service has costs that greatly exceed the annual revenue from the monthly subs there are bound to be accountants and others at Tivo Inc HQ who will question its continuation. On the other hand Tivo marketing people who still harbour plans to return to the UK would undoubtedly argue that if its only a tiny proportion of total annual Tivo operating costs so its worth it to protect the corporate reputation.

Although cutting off Lifetime service to UK customers who still want it while the boxes are still functional could be bad PR for Tivo Inc it is probably less of an issue now that they no longer market new boxes in the USA or elsewhere with the lifetime sub option.

From a commercial point of view the Lifetime sub model is ultimately rather a ruinous one if continued for too long. It only works in the early days of a company when it is growing fast and is cash poor and needs the money and also only expects the Lifetime subscribers to be a tiny proportion of the size of the final eventual customer base.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> the Lifetime sub model is ultimately rather a ruinous one if continued for too long.


...especially if the product's lifetime keeps getting extended by people replacing their hard drives 

However, I firmly believe that, on balance, I've significantly boosted TiVo's revenue in the UK by resuscitating many monthly-subbed TiVos that would otherwise have been binned :up:


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## thefern (Feb 14, 2005)

If they do stop the service, surely that's the time we look at the kind of service that is run by Oztivo et al down under - they have no EPG and do very well indeed...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

thefern said:


> If they do stop the service, surely that's the time we look at the kind of service that is run by Oztivo et al down under - they have no EPG and do very well indeed...


Yes of course that is what we will do if and/or when it happens.

But it would still be very difficult for many less technically minded Tivo owners who do not have a Cachecard or a Turbonet card to even contemplate and I fear the quality of the guide data would not be anywhere near as good as that currently provided by Tribune despite all our occasional moans in that quarter. I can see the linkage of our Thumbs Data and existing Season Pass data just for instance immediately going straight down the tubes.............


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## rwtomkins (Jul 14, 2003)

Perhaps any amateur (or professional) lawyers would like to study the TiVo Service Agreement and see if they can spot any get-out that would allow TiVo to terminate its legal obligations under the Product Lifetime Subscription agreement (paragraph 14 applies). I don't see anything - but then, I'm not a lawyer, either amateur or professional.

Here it is:

http://www.tivo.com/5.11.2.asp

grhm, the 18 months to 2 years thing is just speculation based on the idea that, at the rate things are changing, TiVo technology as it stands in the UK will quite probably be overtaken by something preferable over that sort of timescale.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

That seems to be a recent US agreement, and won't be the one that you signed in the UK. I rather imagine that if they chose to wind up the UK company, there would be no-one left here to provide the service.


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## thefern (Feb 14, 2005)

rwtomkins said:


> TiVo technology as it stands in the UK will quite probably be overtaken by something preferable over that sort of timescale.


When I got my TiVo five years ago I thought exactly the same thing - aroundt two year and there will be something better - and was in two minds about getting my lifetime sub - but I'm very glad I did 

I am being forced to use Sky+ to get HD recording but the TiVo will remain for all SD broadcasting whilst I wait...


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## rwtomkins (Jul 14, 2003)

ndunlavey said:


> That seems to be a recent US agreement, and won't be the one that you signed in the UK. I rather imagine that if they chose to wind up the UK company, there would be no-one left here to provide the service.


No, it's the global TiVo Service Agreement that applies to all TiVo users everywhere. See this legal notice taken from the TiVo UK website:

http://www.tivo.co.uk/5.10.asp

Even if an earlier agreement had applied at the time we joined, it's irrelevant because we signed nothing and these are the terms currently applying. Anyway, it's hard to believe any earlier agreement would have been less favourable to us than this one.

I don't understand why you're all so pessimistic about the lifetime sub. The promise they made to us is incontestable and there's no possibility they can go back on it. The promise is underwritten by TiVo Inc, legal commitments are binding across international frontiers and it's completely irelevant whether there's a viable TiVo operation in the UK or not. Even if TiVo Inc were taken over or merged, the legal commitment would be binding on the successor company. The only way the commitment can lapse is if TiVo Inc goes into bankruptcy, in which case the lifetime subscribers will be among the creditors, or if users lose interest in holding the company to it because the technology loses currency. (Or, of course, when the boxes themselves stop working, but that's not going to happen while blindlemon's around!)

Just my opinion, anyway.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

I'd need to look out my contract to see which legal entity it was made with, and what Ts & Cs apply to it.

I do STR that there is a clause in it that says my TiVo may not be modified in any way, and that doing so invalidates the contract.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ndunlavey said:


> I do STR that there is a clause in it that says my TiVo may not be modified in any way, and that doing so invalidates the contract.


And it is believed that a Tivo can report back on the make and model of the hard drive(s) currently fitted to it during the Daily Call.

On the other hand building a machine fitted with hard drives with a Mean Time to Failure of say only say 30 months might render the retailer that sold it liable to a claim that the goods are not Fit For Purpose if they cannot be replaced in the same way as a car tyre or battery. But then again DSG Retail where I bought my machine (Currys) can afford access to much bigger and better paid lawyers than me..............


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## rwtomkins (Jul 14, 2003)

Sorry, I've just been looking at theTiVo Service Agreement again and I've noticed the paragraph that covers the Product Lifetime Subsription is is paragraph 13, not 14 as I stated above. Re-reading paragraph 13, I see it says the Product Lifetime Subscription

"... remains in effect if the TiVo DVR needs to be repaired or replaced due to a malfunction (see manufacturer or retailer warranty details) or even if you upgrade your TiVo DVR to increase storage capacity (though such upgrades, if not performed by TiVo or a TiVo-authorized third party, will void the warranty on your TiVo DVR and constitute a breach of this Agreement)."

This appears to mean that upgrading your hard drive is ok but only if carried out by a TiVo authorised agent. If not carried out by a TiVo-approved agent, the upgrade invalidates your agreement with TiVo.

So it appears we're screwed after all. Apologies all round.


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## darrin2101 (Oct 25, 2002)

If the O/P or anyone else for that matter is still looking for a TiVo, I'm flogging mine.
Upgraded to an 80 gig drive less than a year ago along with a Turbonet card (it has all the useful Tivoweb add-ons installed as well).
Fully working, (including remote), excellent condition, original box, Spare IR blaster, etc
I thought I'd give everyone here first refusal before sticking it on "the 'bay"


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## Zippy (Aug 23, 2002)

newboy said:


> Hi Y'all,
> 
> Apologies for being lazy and not searching the forum correctly but i was hoping someone may have a Tivo for sale. Any condition as i quite enjoy upgrading.
> 
> ...


My Tivo is now semi retired. It has a pacelink and a lifetime sub on it. Make me an offer and I might be interested in flogging it.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Zippy said:


> My Tivo is now semi retired. It has a pacelink and a lifetime sub on it. Make me an offer and I might be interested in flogging it.


Or you could always stick it on Ebay.

Ought to fetch £150 upwards there depending who is bidding.


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## grhm (Nov 8, 2004)

Thanks for the replies everyone. Interesting to see how people think the future might pan out.

I hope TiVo Inc carry on for a long time, hence my original query, but should they pull out I'll try other ways of getting guide info first, then if that's unsatisfactory, move on to whatever is best on the market at that point (Topfield looks like the best of the rest at the moment - I'll never give Sky another penny of my money). If we can last till digital switchover has completed there may be a lot more choice.

Still love my TiVo and it's going strong two years after a BlindLemon disk upgrade (although it's wiped tivoweb out sometime in the past and I've not got around to reinstalling it yet!)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

grhm said:


> I hope TiVo Inc carry on for a long time, hence my original query, but should they pull out I'll try other ways of getting guide info first, then if that's unsatisfactory, move on to whatever is best on the market at that point (Topfield looks like the best of the rest at the moment - I'll never give Sky another penny of my money). If we can last till digital switchover has completed there may be a lot more choice.


BBC and ITV should launch their HD satellite rival service to Sky next year (although perhaps the launch is still contingent on C4 and Five getting out of their encryption deals with Sky) and I would have thought its likely those boxes will have a PVR model variant with functions similar to Freeview Playback.

As the cost of larger HD compatible flat screen tvs start to fall and if and when the Beeb/ITV launch a box to get HD with no subs required I can see that eventually the lure of watching HD is going to become strong, even for those not prepared to pay Murdoch Enterprises £500 plus per annum in channel subscription fees.


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