# TiVo should market the Premiere to OTA more aggressively



## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ytech_gadg/ytech_gadg_tc1598


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

OTA is a shrinking market.

I know at least a dozen people that switched from OTA to cable within the past two years.


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

I always think about dropping cable. But we have to keep the internet and the home phone, which also comes from the cable company. So it would only save us about $30 a month to drop the TV part.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

I'm HIGHLY considering dropping Directv and going OTA only. I've looked into cable, but the bare minimum to get HD locals is $60 a month.


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> OTA is a shrinking market.
> 
> I know at least a dozen people that switched from OTA to cable within the past two years.


normally I love your posts, but I gotta :down: this one.... the link I put was to an article saying it was in fact a growing market... I have mentioned it many times on this board, but I dropped Direct TV for simply a Roku box with Netflix, and I just recently got a OTA antenna and was amazed at how many channels I got and more importantly the quality... hence the desire for a Tivo...

each viewer is different, but if you are not a sportsfan (like me) you could easily get by without the cable or dish, and just supplement with netflix and amazon, I know I save over $50 a month since dropping Direct Tv


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Count me in as one who dropped cable for OTA+online "Video Providers" only.


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## Terbor (Jan 26, 2009)

orangeboy said:


> Count me in as one who dropped cable for OTA+online "Video Providers" only.


Same here


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## global_dev (Mar 15, 2010)

We'd be considering OTA and online if it wasn't for the poor implementation of closed captions or subtitles with no change in sight.


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## aggarcia (Aug 27, 2002)

When my Directv contract expires in June, I will get three Tivo Premiere units and still save money the first year. Like the article mentioned, we are paying for a lot of channels we do not watch. I watch 95% OTA HD, so why pay Directv for this? A DVR is a must, but spending less than $30 a month vs $100 is crazy.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

I went through my Series Links (Season Passes in Directv speak), and of the 14 MUST have shows I record, 10 of them I can get OTA. Only ones I can't are South Park, Ugly Americans, Weeds, Nurse Jackie, and new episodes of Futurama on Comedy Central. I'm probably dropping Directv and going OTA only.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

OTA + broadband, :up:

stick it to the man...


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Some feedback I have seen posted is that Premiere OTA reception is worse than in S3/THD platforms. i.e. For same antenna input the resulting SNR ratio is lower and there are higher RS Corrected/Uncorrected errors. Probably something that can be tweaked at firmware level no doubt but certainly not a glowing endorsement of Premiere for OTA only.

ATSC used to be a good option for me before the digital transition when all channels I cared about were in UHF range with good power levels and I could tune them fine with an indoor amplified UHF antenna sitting in the garage. After the digital transition all the channels I care about moved to VHF range with lower broadcast power and I can't tune any of them now from my garage. I would probably have to go to a fancy rooftop antenna just to be able to tune what I could before in the garage and so I haven't bothered to pursue it further.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

moyekj said:


> Some feedback I have seen posted is that Premiere OTA reception is worse than in S3/THD platforms. i.e. For same antenna input the resulting SNR ratio is lower and there are higher RS Corrected/Uncorrected errors. Probably something that can be tweaked at firmware level no doubt but certainly not a glowing endorsement of Premiere for OTA only.


What does the Premiere offer over the Series 3 for the OTA only user? Would a Series 3 maybe be a better choice?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> OTA is a shrinking market.
> 
> I know at least a dozen people that switched from OTA to cable within the past two years.


Me and 2 people I know have dropped cable in favor of OTA + internet. The Premiere is the ONLY product out there currently that can combine both of these sources seamlessly, save for a PC.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

kturcotte said:


> What does the Premiere offer over the Series 3 for the OTA only user? Would a Series 3 maybe be a better choice?


It seems that the OTA tuner in the Series 3 might be better. Other than that, I don't think it has an advantage.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

kturcotte said:


> What does the Premiere offer over the Series 3 for the OTA only user? Would a Series 3 maybe be a better choice?


 Theoretically the HDUI with better integration with Netflix and Amazon and other internet based content should be a better choice longer term once/if all the HDUI problems are worked out. But if you are strictly OTA only and don't care about internet content then the Series 3 machines are good choices still. Then again for OTA only I would probably go the HTPC route myself to avoid service fees (if primary motivation is to save money which would be the case if I went OTA only).


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## spongeweed (Mar 4, 2010)

I just tried to cancel, and the CSR extended my return window by 30 days because of OTA reception problems. She gave me a reference number to refer to if problems were not fixed and I want to return the unit + lifetime for a full refund. Should I trust this, or should I not take any chances & return it anyway?


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## theoryzero (Jan 7, 2010)

I just canceled my cable a few days ago. The Premiere has been recording shows reliably OTA for me the past couple weeks. Any issues I've had (for example: audio glitches on Lost last night) have actually turned out to be not related to my antenna setup but rather at the station or beyond since cable users have had the same issues.

Anyhow, we had basic cable (paying for pretty much the same channels I get OTA, we only watched the network channels anyway) and internet for $100 a month. Canceling the cable and losing the cable box DVR drops us down to $40 a month for internet. So, paying off my Premiere with lifetime should take about 10 months with the money we are saving by dropping cable.

I probably would of gone the HTPC route if I was still single, but my wife really gets aggravated when things like that don't work. The Premiere has it's quirks to work out, but, for us, it has done the core functionality just fine and we are for the most part happy with it.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

daveak said:


> OTA + broadband, :up:
> 
> stick it to the man...


Amen to that. We are dropping our Dish Network in favor of a OTA + broadband internet. And we were only on the second level of Dish service, which came out to about $47 a month with the local and DVR fees. I don't know how anybody can stomach Comcast prices. We'll break even after only about 16 months, with nothing more to pay after that (until the box dies).

We just got our Premiere setup last night and I'm quite impressed with the OTA capabilities. And full HD is gorgeous, too bad only our projector will accept the HD signal.... now we'll need a new TV. 

I remember the good old days growing up in the 80's, when we had a monster VHF antenna strapped to the chimney and a rotator. That allowed us to get about seven channels with OK quality most of the time. And your guide was actually a paper book or insert in the Sunday newspaper. OTA now is SO much better in every way. The rooftop antenna which allows us to bring in clear digital from more than 30 miles away cost less than one month's satellite subscription.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

spongeweed said:


> I just tried to cancel, and the CSR extended my return window by 30 days because of OTA reception problems. She gave me a reference number to refer to if problems were not fixed and I want to return the unit + lifetime for a full refund. Should I trust this, or should I not take any chances & return it anyway?


Did you get his/her name and date/time you called? Those are always helpful bits of information to have if a problem ever arises with something you were promised that later suddenly seems to have been forgotten. Since you actually have a reference number, I wouldn't worry too much about it, but it's really your call. How close are you to the initial 30-day window? And what needs to be done to address the OTA reception issues? Do you just need to re-aim your antenna, get a bigger one, or are you waiting on a fix from some other person/company?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Mike-Mike said:


> normally I love your posts, but I gotta :down: this one.... the link I put was to an article saying it was in fact a growing market... I have mentioned it many times on this board, but I dropped Direct TV for simply a Roku box with Netflix, and I just recently got a OTA antenna and was amazed at how many channels I got and more importantly the quality... hence the desire for a Tivo...
> 
> each viewer is different, but if you are not a sportsfan (like me) you could easily get by without the cable or dish, and just supplement with netflix and amazon, I know I save over $50 a month since dropping Direct Tv


I read the article. I didn't see anywhere that it said OTA was growing.

It said"...To wit: Nearly 800,000 households in the U.S. have "cut the cord," dumping their cable, satellite, or telco TV providers (such as AT&T U-verse or Verizon FiOS) and turning instead to Web-based videos (like Hulu), downloadable shows (iTunes), by-mail subscription services (Netflix), or even good ol' over-the-air antennas for their favorite shows.."

So more people are cutting the cord, but they mention online options and then OTA last. I did not see where it said OTA was growing, just the number of households that dropped cable or satellite.

I would think many people that do drop cable/satellite stick with Internet service instead of OTA since most OTA programs can be downloaded online.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

moyekj said:


> Theoretically the HDUI with better integration with Netflix and Amazon and other internet based content should be a better choice longer term once/if all the HDUI problems are worked out. But if you are strictly OTA only and don't care about internet content then the Series 3 machines are good choices still. Then again for OTA only I would probably go the HTPC route myself to avoid service fees (if primary motivation is to save money which would be the case if I went OTA only).


How much power are HTPC's consuming these days? My computer with a low end CPU, low end video card (without fan even) draws about 110 watts at idle (not including the monitor). The Premiere only uses 25. If they're on 24/7/365, I calculate the Premiere will use about $60 less per year than my computer, which pays for a healthy portion of a lifetime Tivo subscription. So there's that. Of course, if you already have your computer on 24/7/365, that becomes a moot point.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Mike-Mike said:


> each viewer is different, but if you are not a sportsfan (like me) you could easily get by without the cable or dish, and just supplement with netflix and amazon


Agreed. 
Just through OTA alone, I have a backlog of stuff I'm interested in watching. If some of it turns out to be $h*t, that means I can catch up on my Netflix queue.
I'm proud to say that I, personally, have NEVER paid a dime to any cable/sat provider.
I had access to cable when I still lived with my parents and a "friend" once "hooked me up" (was it stealing even though I didn't do the deed? I didn't have a Tivo at that time. ) which only lasted a year.
Having the extra choices of content was nice, but it's not something I need.
If I had cable, I'd feel obligated to save even MORE shows and be THAT much more backlogged.
NO THANKS.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aaroncgi said:


> How much power are HTPC's consuming these days? My computer with a low end CPU, low end video card (without fan even) draws about 110 watts at idle (not including the monitor). The Premiere only uses 25. If they're on 24/7/365, I calculate the Premiere will use about $60 less per year than my computer, which pays for a healthy portion of a lifetime Tivo subscription. So there's that. Of course, if you already have your computer on 24/7/365, that becomes a moot point.


True, but going the HTPC route you gain much more for it such as hulu, joost, and any of the other available streaming sites. Also with Windows 7 I have found my sleep/hibernation actually works and my HTPC only boots up to record or when I fire up the 360 to watch a recording.


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

kturcotte said:


> I went through my Series Links (Season Passes in Directv speak), and of the 14 MUST have shows I record, 10 of them I can get OTA. Only ones I can't are South Park, Ugly Americans, Weeds, Nurse Jackie, and new episodes of Futurama on Comedy Central. I'm probably dropping Directv and going OTA only.


Most of the shows you want can be purchased on Amazon per episode or per season and you still come out way cheaper than cable. In my area we have Insight and their bare bones basic cable is $46 a month before you throw in fees and what not. And I'm not sure that even includes F/X which is the main draw of cable for me, besides premium shows on HBO or SHowtime. But I just bought Archer from F/X on amazon, and it was like $15 or something for the whole season, which is pretty sweet to me.


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

how bout this one:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/OverTheAir-TV-Viewership-bw-4285671907.html?x=0&.v=1


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## fareal (Feb 16, 2004)

OTA only here as well. That along with Netflix is plenty.


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## _Ryan_ (Apr 4, 2010)

Yep.

I dropped cable last year and went OTA only. Loving it. The only thing that I miss are HBO shows like Curb... I end up going over to friends' houses to watch them - more fun that way anyways. Lots of cable shows are available streaming the next day for free (southpark, etc). I can't justify the $70/month for cable at all when 90&#37; of the shows I watch are free on OTA channels.


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## jmX (May 7, 2004)

Agreed, OTA is the whole reason I got a premiere...the Series 2 I had was useless since all broadcasts are digital now, plus it didn't have netflix support. 

For whatever it's worth, I get 96 digital stations over the air here in Los Angeles. 90 of them are crap, but hey...its free.


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## rattlebone (Apr 16, 2010)

The last cost increase pushed me to dump DirecTV. Also when it snows or there is heavy rain the DiredcTV picture breaks up. Just not worth the cost. 

I dumped DirecTV in favor or the Tivo Premiere, Netflix, and OTA with a large outdoor antenna (VHF lo, VHF hi, & UHF). The TV picture quality is excellent even in stormy weather. 
no regrets at all


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## krusir (Feb 12, 2008)

Ditto. OTA + Netflix 

Dropped Cable. Netflix make up for Kid's cartoon and movies. I put my OTA antenna in my attic, with CM777 pre-amp, split the signal to two TiVos and two TVs.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

OTA also looks great in my area, sadly, just a lack of channels due to signal strength
Using a Kill-A-Watt device to measure hydro use, the monthly bill reads out around $12 month based on .23 cents a kw hour.


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## jmX (May 7, 2004)

tvmaster2 said:


> OTA also looks great in my area, sadly, just a lack of channels due to signal strength
> Using a Kill-A-Watt device to measure hydro use, the monthly bill reads out around $12 month based on .23 cents a kw hour.


Hydro use? Kill-a-watt has nothing to do with water.

What are you measuring with the kill-a-watt? If a premiere, it would cost somewhere around $4/mo at $0.23/kwh (25w * 24h * 30days = 18kwh / month)


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

maybe he's watching tv more and in turn is home more and peeing more from sitting in front of the tv, measuring toilet water use


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

Maybe he's Canadian. The electric utilities refer to it as hydro since that is where they get most of their energy from. They often use "hydro" in place of "electric" in their utility company names too.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

OTA is quickly becoming the only way to receive true HD quality as cable companies are compressing the hell out of their "HD" signal.


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## JimG19 (Jun 30, 2005)

I recently switched from cable to OTA after seeing how few shows we tivoed that were truly cable.

Using indoor antennas as we are 15 miles from signal and it comes in good.

I am a sports fan but having access to ESPN360 helps in that area as well as a sub to MLB.tv Any other cable shows we watched are available online.

We save about $60 a month on tv, although I am considering purchasing a Roku box if they start streaming MLB.tv on there. Of course, I can use it for netflix in my office.

Long term, I think it is a good plan for us. While not a lot of savings, the economy is kicking our butt and every little bit helps.

Jim


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> OTA is quickly becoming the only way to receive true HD quality as cable companies are compressing the hell out of their "HD" signal.


Not FiOS, then don't do any further compression. But what is more of an issue are the subchannels many local channels have. The picture quality today is nothing like it was back in 2001/2002.
I can easily see the difference when I look at some of my HD recordings from back then. Back before my local channels were running the bandwidth hogging subchannels.


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## 241705 (Mar 9, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> Not FiOS, then don't do any further compression. But what is more of an issue are the subchannels many local channels have.


I agree with that. Our local ABC and NBC affiliates have two sub-channels each, and the picture quality on the main channel suffers for it.


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## TheGreenHornet (Nov 1, 2007)

blackngold75 said:


> I agree with that. Our local ABC and NBC affiliates have two sub-channels each, and the picture quality on the main channel suffers for it.


I read on Wikipedia in an article that the CBS O&Os (I do not know remember which station the article referenced) do not have any digital subchannels. In Philly, KYW is owned by CBS. The OTA signal is the absolute best and rock solid on KYW. Vibrant shows like Survivor -in particluar their scenary shots - are maginificant in HD on CBS3.

That is not the case in Philly with WCAU (NBC) and WPVI (ABC). I am 10 miles from the antenna farm and can see the differences provided there are no break ups. All the ABC O&Os returned to their VHF frequencies with their four digital subchannels. (WLS in Chicago was able to get off of RF7 to UHF due to reception issues). It has created huge problems for reception of 6ABC on lo-vhf through out the Philly market. Naturally, Disney has blamed the FCC in the press for assigning all their stations their analog frequencies.

The Fox O&O in Philly does not have any digital subchannels. I do not know if that true of all Fox O&Os through out the country.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

innocentfreak said:


> True, but going the HTPC route you gain much more for it such as hulu, joost, and any of the other available streaming sites. Also with Windows 7 I have found my sleep/hibernation actually works and my HTPC only boots up to record or when I fire up the 360 to watch a recording.


That's a nice feature on Windows7. Certainly I'm sure there are plenty of people who use the sites you mention.

For us, we don't use any streaming video except Netflix, and the only reason we'll be doing that is because of the Tivo.


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## aaroncgi (Apr 13, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> Not FiOS, then don't do any further compression. But what is more of an issue are the subchannels many local channels have. The picture quality today is nothing like it was back in 2001/2002.
> I can easily see the difference when I look at some of my HD recordings from back then. Back before my local channels were running the bandwidth hogging subchannels.


I can't speak to picture quality comparisons of that age. I will say that HD locals look spectacular from our LCD projector on a 90" screen. The projector doesn't even do true HD since it's native resolution is 1024 x 768, so 16:9 is downscaled to 1024 x 576. Is it Blu-Ray quality, no, but it's significantly better than DVD quality.

That said, we're still watching TV on 31" CRT set, so we're happy just to have a minor picture improvement from our Dish Network DVR. The best improvement is that the Tivo allows us to select what to do with widescreen material - letterbox, crop the sides, or squish the image horizontally (naturally we choose letterbox!). Our Dish DVR will only do crop, which sucks, because shows always had names cutoff, people cut in half or out of the picture completely, etc.

Since we are OTA only, we'll take all the subchannels we can get!


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

another article on the subject:

http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/30/technology/dropping_cable_tv/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Mike-Mike said:


> another article on the subject:
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/30/technology/dropping_cable_tv/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin


And again it's not about people going OTA but getting their content online.

It doesn't even mention OTA in the article.


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## bleeman (Sep 5, 2004)

We pulled the plug on DirecTV at the end of March after 15yrs with them. Like others we found most of our "Must Haves" were OTA. We bought the Premiere XL and already had Netflix (which we were watching on the Xbox 360) and no regrets. The Premiere XL has been working great and today I picked up a Premiere for my office.

We are getting great reception from a 13yr old antenna in the attic and our local stations towers are about 40 miles away

We had the original DirecTV Tivo units (R10's) and while they were nice for their time, I LOVE what I can do with the premiere's. I've also added the Tivo Add-In to our Windows Home Server and have spent the last few hours playing with transfers between the XL to the Home Server and then to the Premiere. Works very well. With the Home Server in the loop the 45hr capacity of the Premiere won't be an issue.


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## DaveWhittle (Jul 25, 2002)

kturcotte said:


> I'm HIGHLY considering dropping Directv and going OTA only. I've looked into cable, but the bare minimum to get HD locals is $60 a month.


If you have Comcast in your area, check to see if they have a "Dish buyback" promotion. I get digital + HBO and a DVR (mostly unused in a spare room as a backup) for $50 a month for a year. Plus get a discount for Internet.


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> And again it's not about people going OTA but getting their content online.
> 
> It doesn't even mention OTA in the article.


isnt' that the point of the premiere? combining online content with tv?

but regardless, you think these people are cutting cable and dish are not getting OTA? like they are only gonna get online content and won't set up an antenna for free tv?


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