# Roamio Cable PQ



## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

My new Roamio appears to be quite 'soft focus' compared to the Motorola DVR it is replacing.
TiVo menus are perfect, no issue, but any HD cable channel is not good:
Looking at any cable channel logo up close, it 'blurs' the edge pixels both upper and lower. The overall effect on whole screen PQ is pretty bad. Watchable but not crisp as I'm used to.

A new Mini displays the same issues on live and recorded TV but playing Netflix HD material is very good quality on both Roamio and Mini

Is this 'normal'? I can take some screenies if it helps.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Here's examples of play and paused. Play is blurred almost like interlacing problems, paused is fine.
This happens on any 1080i, 1080p, 720p setting as well as probably 480 material but that is such poor PQ I wont include it.

Attached is an AMC logo whilst playing


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Same logo paused


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

I tried capturing photos of paused and playing versions of the AMC logo at 1080p from a Roamio playback of "Mad Men" on a 65" plasma and they are both identical with your second picture. Obviously this could be a lot of things, like an interaction between the video processing in your Roamio and your TV, or a defect in your Roamio; I am clueless as to what it actually is.

This is probably impractical for you, but if it were my problem and I had unlimited resource, I would try swapping back the old DVR as well as swapping in a different TV. What would really nail it down would be to try your Roamio on my TV, but obviously we can't do that. You have probably already tried investigating the settings on your TV since you are a guy that cares about picture quality, but I thought I'd mention that, particularly if there is a way to disable videos quality processing on your TV since doing that task twice often has a bad effect.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

Have you tried changing the video output settings? See if setting a static resolution helps....1080i is a safe bet for most TVs.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks both for the assist.

The photos are from my main Plasma TV fed by the Roamio (tried direct and through the AVR). It's happening on any cable fed channel, HD or SD, no matter what resolution I pick on the Roamio.

I can see the same problem with a Mini on an LCD TV in the bedroom. Both Roamio and Mini play Netflix in perfect PQ.

If I hook up the Motorola DVR and pick same channel and same output resolution, PQ is fine, both ply and paused (almost identical).

It really seems as though this Roamio has a problem cable tuner-side.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

I have decided to replace the Roamio with Amazon.They are advance shipping replacement to me.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

If the new unit shows the same issues....

Does your cable system have any clear QAM channels? If so, try examining one of them through the TiVo compared to a direct connection of the cable feed to the TV. This would determine if this is a defect in the cable feed (which the Moto DVR somehow corrected or suppressed) or an issue in the TiVo signal processing. It DOES look like a de-interlacing artifact, so another thing to try would be to look at a 720p source channel (like your local ABC affiliate, or any News Corp owned channel) passed through to the TV as 720p and see if you see the same thing. If you do, then it would not be truly an interlacing related problem (not sure what else it *could *be, though).


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

I agree about the interlacing as a paused single frame is good. It does do it on 720p too though. I wonder if it has anything to do with 29/59Hz flicker problem that cableCARD HTPCs can exhibit. Most channels my cable co feeds have this problem.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Since the Moto DVR would have a Cablecard inside it as well, it is unlikely to be a Cablecard issue unless they are using different cards in their own STBs than they give you for 3rd party equipment. But at this point (particularly since you see it on 720p content even when the Tivo is just passing it through) anything is possible.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

For informations sake I am using the same cableCARD I was using in a HTPC Ceton tuner. I should have stated cableCARD Roamio Plus in my first post, sorry. I am not OTA.

edited: corrected misinformation


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Thought: Whilst waiting for replacement, I'll get out a rusty TiVoHD I have and test. It's HD PQ was sharp a few years back.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Well, the TiVoHD works perfectly. Great PQ paused and playing @ 1080i (no smoothing set). Same input on AVR to TV with no changes made to any settings.

Hopefully the replacement Roamio will do the trick.

Thanks all for your help.


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## Kash76 (Jul 29, 2001)

During commercials on my Basic unit I have some weird horizontal lines that look like interlacing. I figure it's the way that Comcast scales some of the advertising as it is not on all commercials. I never had this on DirecTV and have noticed quite the PQ degradation during fast movement


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Yes I see that a lot through any hardware. Sometimes it's appalling PQ. Interlacing artifacts all over the place. It's a source issue not anything your end. Over time things will clear up.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mangochutney said:


> I agree about the interlacing as a paused single frame is good. It does do it on 720p too though. I wonder if it has anything to do with 29/59Hz flicker problem that cableCARD HTPCs can exhibit. Most channels my cable co feeds have this problem.





Diana Collins said:


> Since the Moto DVR would have a Cablecard inside it as well, it is unlikely to be a Cablecard issue unless they are using different cards in their own STBs than they give you for 3rd party equipment. But at this point (particularly since you see it on 720p content even when the Tivo is just passing it through) anything is possible.





mangochutney said:


> For informations sake I am using the same cableCARD I was using in a HTPC Ceton tuner. I should have stated cableCARD Roamio Plus in my first post, sorry. I am not OTA. edited: corrected misinformation


It's not the cablecard that causes the 29/59 bug in a lot of HTPCs, it's the video/graphics card (Intel I think, if I recall correctly). You could definitely be onto something there. Maybe TiVo is using video hardware in their Roamios that exhibits the same bug?

I remember when I had my Mac mini setup with an HDHomerun prime I had the issue with certain channels and you could call up a secret diagnostics menu and watch the frame rate flicker. Maybe TiVo has a similar service menu to see if it has this bug?

I found a good link about it:

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/wiki/index.php?title=The_29_59_Frame_Rate_Issue


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## BadDuck (Aug 22, 2013)

Mango, for what it is worth, I noticed the same issue when switching from Moto dvr to Roamio. It was frustrating and I returned the first Roamio and replaced the cable card and I also found the same situation on the new roamio and cable card. I hated the moto guide and dual tuner so much I just forgot about it and moved on.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

^ I hope not! 

I can't really forget about the real reduction in PQ. Others have commented they do not see the phenomenon and when I tested a TiVoHD today, it worked fine.

Because of these points, I am hopeful.

What I am trying to get my head around is that my Mini displays the same problem on a different TV. Live or recorded.
I wonder how the Roamio handles the MPEG decoding for itself and any slaves like the Mini.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Been doing some reading here:


Bigg said:


> TiVo records the MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 (on FIOS and a select few cable companies) stream as it comes in from the MSO. That stream is streamed without modification, other than some sort of file wrapper and metadata and whatnot, to the Minis exactly as it came from the MSO


I may be SOL. As the Mini is showing the same anomaly, although less noticeable through my lower quality LCD TV in the bedroom.

If this is indeed the case, I'll take some screenshots for everyone from TiVo and the cable STB on same output resolution, same channel etc. and show you all how bad it really is.

The CNN banner is a great example. It's futzed up to all buggery compared to what I'm used to seeing (not that I watch CNN that often mind..).

I can't watch TV like this. If the replacement kit does the same, I'll box things up and back they go!!


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

It could possibly just be ringing/ghosting from the Roamio using cheap electronic parts compared to the older TiVos and commercially produced. Motorola boxes? I've seen these sorts of effects on cheaper electronics (Bluray/DVD players, displays, etc) while doing ISF Calibrations.

Try finding a streaming calibration file or rip one from a DVD or BLURAY and then transfer it to your TiVo to play and evaluate performance.

This is the one I like to use:


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Hi Dave,

Static images are crisp. TiVo menu is crisp, Netflix crisp.
Only cable fed material shows the problem.

It has to be interlacing and perhaps my MSOs setup make these series 5 units show it up more.
If I set TiVo output to 720p alone, it masks the issue somewhat, but puts everything into further soft focus.
If this is indeed a global 'defect' with series 5 units, I am very surprised only a few have raised the problem. The difference in PQ between hardware is night and day.

The TV's in my house are professionally calibrated. My main TV is a Samsung F8500 plasma. I have no processing turned on that can make this happen. I am very particular about image clarity.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Diana I have to apologize, what I thought was a 720p TV feed was infact 1080i, so my report about seeing the issue at 720p source was incorrect.
720p source does not show the problem, you hit the nail on the head.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

BadDuck, I think you are right!


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Setting Tivo to 720p and watching a source 720p the interlacing issue is no more, BUT the overall PQ for 720p isn't quite what it should be IMO.

Picky person aren't I ?


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

mangochutney said:


> Setting Tivo to 720p and watching a source 720p the interlacing issue is no more, BUT the overall PQ for 720p isn't quite what it should be IMO.
> 
> Picky person aren't I ?


What about 1080p?


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

^ I was simply trying to see what no conversion looked like at same in/same out config. It's as good as you're going to get for 720p source.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

mangochutney said:


> If this is indeed a global 'defect' with series 5 units, I am very surprised only a few have raised the problem. The difference in PQ between hardware is night and day.


Definitely not the case. I've owned several generations of TiVos and the Roamios definitely don't have inferior PQ. Right now, I'm watching that show that comes on after Jon Stewart. It's native 1080i and the PQ is excellent....that little Comedy Central logo in the lower corner is just as crisp as can be.

I occasionally switch between the Roamio and a Premiere that sits under it (I use it for "long-term" storage), and there's no degradation of PQ when I do.

Perhaps your Roamio's video processor is defective and isn't properly handling interlaced content?


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

My replacement Roamio arrived, exactly the same interlacing display problems so back everything goes to Amazon and TiVo are refunding my lifetime sub.

I did some further tests on broadcast TV but didn't bother to take pics. All fed to same HDMI port on TV with no adjustments to TV settings. Long story short-

HTPC - Ceton Tuner+AMD GPU - Best PQ
Motorola STB - Best PQ
TiVo HD - Good PQ
TiVo Roamio (two different brand new boxes) - Poor PQ
TiVo Mini (two different brand new boxes, different LCD TV) - Poor PQ

I don't know what else to say. It's like a bad date  Thanks all for your help.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

What's the theory here? 1080i content in 1080i signal mode has artifacts?

That sounds like a poor deinterlacer, but the one being used is in the TV.

1080i signal, looks fine in 720p signal mode? The deinterlacer+scaler is in the Tivo and is doing a good job.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

I think I'm going around in circles here...

My TV is top range plasma Samsung F8500. No other input device that plays interlaced TV content shows the problem.
My bedroom TV is a mid range LCD. It shows the problem too via 2x Minis.

In the UK, I see many Virgin TiVo owners are complaining about PQ. Here on this forum, quite a few others too.

I just want the best PQ possible, and the Roamio series 5 is just not cutting it together with my MSO. Ironically the TiVo HD does a decent job! A little soft but fine to watch.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

mangochutney said:


> I think I'm going around in circles here...
> 
> My TV is top range plasma Samsung F8500. No other input device that plays interlaced TV content shows the problem.
> My bedroom TV is a mid range LCD. It shows the problem too via 2x Minis.
> ...


Your problem does sound like an interlace issue. Skimming back over the thread, I see that b-ball-fanatic suggested trying 1080i (as a fixed output from the Roamio). Have you tried that? Interestingly, that's the output you're probably getting from the TiVo HD. Have you tried connecting the Roamio (not the Mini) to a different TV? Is your Samsung TV's firmware up-to-date? Can you connect the Roamio to a completely different cable system or to an OTA antenna as a debugging step?


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Yes to most questions! No OTA. Cannot connect to another cable service. TV is calibrated to Rec709. All TV tweaks disabled.

I wonder if someone could take a closeup pic of the CNN banner whilst their TiVo is playing?


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)




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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Got me watching. CNN and msnbc are showing identical content right now. On CNN, their logo and other fixed screen items are not very distinct. On msnbc their network information is much clearer. However, the flag's stars are clear and sharp on CNN but fuzzy on msnbc. The main picture of the pres is the same to my eyes. So one is using a different f-stop? A different depth of field? Same room, same content but two different cameras. It makes me wonder how two items can ever be compared.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Sticking with CNN channel in this instance you're looking close up with your face close to the screen at pixel level for interlacing artifacts on a 1080i source:

Blurring of horizontal lines, most defined by logos.
Net effect is a crappy whole picture. If you move away to viewing distance, it gets harder to see, but I can see it very much.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

It would seem to me that, at this point, it can be nothing other than the Roamio that is at fault. It may be something related to the HDMI interface (it might be interesting to try it with component, but only to satisfy one's curiosity). It may be something common to all Series 5 TiVos (and the rest of us just aren't that discriminating or most cable feeds are so poor quality that we don't notice) or it might be that TiVo got some bad chip sets. Who knows? All that matters is that mangochutney finds the PQ unacceptable and eliminating the Roamio is the only solution available.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

Agreed. If he just doesn't like it, there's little else to be done.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Well, let's put this into perspective. This is from my HTPC just now. Ceton ETH6 AMD GPU. Ignore the Moire, it's just the angle and light of the pic.

* Pic removed, see a few posts down.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

That's what it looks like on my TV (from both the Roamio and a Premiere). I still suspect an issue with your setup, but you seem pretty convinced that the Roamio just has bad PQ, so you'd probably be happier using the HTPC.

Note also that your two images aren't easily comparable, since one is considerably closer to the screen and, therefore, shows more pixel detail.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> ..but you seem pretty convinced that the Roamio just has bad PQ...


Unfortunately it is the case.



b-ball-fanatic said:


> Note also that your two images aren't easily comparable, since one is considerably closer to the screen and, therefore, shows more pixel detail.


Here's another I tried to get a similar depth:


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Compare both 'E's Open both pics in a separate tab and flick between them. Night and day.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

If your HTPC can access the Opera Screen Test, you could do a better comparison. It's static and can be access from every Roamio. Just ignore the internet speed test. If there is no difference between units, then the fault will be the cable video feed. It's a thought.

Big difference between those screen shots. I'm glad I can't see it on my TV with my poor vision.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

The TiVo kit has been wiped and boxed up now so I am unable to do any more testing.

Lots of other effects happening with it, such as fast moving scenes where the MPEG compression results in blocking. Those blocks, as they have horizontal lines, become more defined. End result, even more visual nastiness.

All sorts of other things happening. One member here reported seeing squiggly lines. I saw those as well, and it's at the precise point where a line of TV intersects someone's lips moving, clothing, edges of letters on ticker tape, etc etc. Lots of anomalies.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

mangochutney said:


> The TiVo kit has been wiped and boxed up now so I am unable to do any more testing.
> 
> Lots of other effects happening with it, such as fast moving scenes where the MPEG compression results in blocking. Those blocks, as they have horizontal lines, become more defined. End result, even more visual nastiness.
> 
> All sorts of other things happening. One member here reported seeing squiggly lines. I saw those as well, and it's at the precise point where a line of TV intersects someone's lips moving, clothing, edges of letters on ticker tape, etc etc. Lots of anomalies.


Well, good luck on whatever direction you take. It's been interesting.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Thank you and I appreciate your and everyone's help.

Sure going to miss 24p Netflix and Onepass!!!


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mangochutney said:


> Thank you and I appreciate your and everyone's help. Sure going to miss 24p Netflix and Onepass!!!


Does maybe the slight picture degradation issues trump the other pluses that you get using TiVo rather than the crappy competition's devices features, etc.?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

I still think this has something to do with it. I've seen it many times when calibrating with a system that has cheaper, off the shelf Walmart, BB, etc. Mexican or Chinese knockoffs.


HarperVision said:


> It could possibly just be ringing/ghosting from the Roamio using cheap electronic parts compared to the older TiVos and commercially produced. Motorola boxes? I've seen these sorts of effects on cheaper electronics (Bluray/DVD players, displays, etc) while doing ISF Calibrations. Try finding a streaming calibration file or rip one from a DVD or BLURAY and then transfer it to your TiVo to play and evaluate performance. This is the one I like to use:


You've said that you've had your system calibrated, but that was with your old gear installed, not the Roamio. How do you know that if you had it calibrated now with the Roamio in the loop that it won't fix it? Maybe your other gear has sharpening circuits in the signal chain and the Roamio doesn't? I have mine going through a Darbee Darblet and don't see what you show in your pictures.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

mangochutney said:


> Compare both 'E's Open both pics in a separate tab and flick between them. Night and day.
> 
> View attachment 22842


Actually that logo looks normal for a large fixed pixel display. I am assuming you have the 64 inch F8500 as the pixels are quite noticeable. 
When I view the same logo on my calibrated 50 inch Kuro the pixels are less noticeable as they are smaller. The key thing to look at is the A's and V's. If I change the picture setting to the default setting, which is Dynamic, I get all kinds of artifacts in the letters and logos.

Now the AMC logo has a problem. This could be a problem with the feed coming from the source. I ran into this issue with the HD channels from Discovery Communications. What was happening is the fields would get reversed and the logos would get the jaggies and the picture would have a soft look to it. I contacted Discovery and they finally fixed the issue. My cable company did not have a clue to what I was talking about.
AMC is owned by AMC Networks. They also own WE and IFC. If these channels are showing the same issue then it is definitely a source issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cable_and_satellite_television_networks

The reason the mini would exhibit the same behavior is it gets it feed from the Roamio. This is why you see the issue on a different TV.

Also if you are running all your gear through an AVR and have only one HDMI feed going to your display, you have to note that each input on your AVR will have to be adjusted independently. I have each of my AVR inputs set to pass through so that the native feed from each device is sent to the display. This way the display is the only device doing all the processing.


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## mangochutney (Apr 7, 2015)

Hi Jed. I think you missed the big picture of my posts probably due to me rambling on. The normal quality for me has been as the HTPC example.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

mangochutney said:


> Hi Jed. I think you missed the big picture of my posts probably due to me rambling on. The normal quality for me has been as the HTPC example.


Sorry! My Bad as I did not see your other CNN logo post. I am assuming one is from the Roamio and the other is from your HTPC feed.

The first CNN logo picture is terrible. I hope this is not a new trend with the Roamio line as I was thinking of getting a basic just for OTA purposes. I hate to spend that much money and then have to send it back. I currently have two TiVo Premiere 4s and I have no issue with the 480i, 1080i channels.

The last time I seen a device that could not deinterlace a channel properly was way back with some of the early 720p DLP sets, mainly RCA units. I also remember if I would force a TV Guide update with the RCA, while I was on a 1080i channel, it would get the jaggies. In order to get rid of the jaggies I would have to shut off the TV and turn it back on.
According to RCA it was putting to much load on the processor. They also stated this was the reason why they could not update the TV Guide firmware to get digital TV Guide updates.

If this was a problem with the cable feed then you would see this on all the devices.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Jed1 said:


> Sorry! My Bad as I did not see your other CNN logo post. I am assuming one is from the Roamio and the other is from your HTPC feed.
> 
> The first CNN logo picture is terrible. I hope this is not a new trend with the Roamio line as I was thinking of getting a basic just for OTA purposes. I hate to spend that much money and then have to send it back. I currently have two TiVo Premiere 4s and I have no issue with the 480i, 1080i channels.
> 
> ...


You may want to compare my Premiere with my Roamio. Even without clear QAM I see a difference. But that's something for another thread. Anytime, you know where I live. It's actually an exciting ride trying to avoid the potholes. Tomorrow I have to go down to Doylestown and I'm glad it's not going to rain. My car doesn't float.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

JoeKustra said:


> You may want to compare my Premiere with my Roamio. Even without clear QAM I see a difference. But that's something for another thread. Anytime, you know where I live. It's actually an exciting ride trying to avoid the potholes. Tomorrow I have to go down to Doylestown and I'm glad it's not going to rain. My car doesn't float.


Doylestown, my old stomping grounds! 

Stop in and say Hi and a big prayer to my poor sister who's been in Doylestown Hospital for over 7 weeks now with serious bowel issues! 

How would you like to be my local "IT Guy" to help my parents in Churchville? I mentioned it to Arcady but I don't think he likes me anymore. 

Speaking of, what ever happened to Arcady???


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

mangochutney said:


> Thank you and I appreciate your and everyone's help.
> 
> Sure going to miss 24p Netflix and Onepass!!!


Good-bye and good luck! I wish you'd been able to figure this out; but I don't blame you a bit for not wasting any more time. I'm just glad I don't have the same problem with my Roamios -- it would drive me crazy!


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

HarperVision said:


> Doylestown, my old stomping grounds!
> 
> Stop in and say Hi and a big prayer to my poor sister who's been in Doylestown Hospital for over 7 weeks now with serious bowel issues!
> 
> ...


I appreciate the confidence, but it's taken me 2 years to go down there (70 miles) and this is to help a friend of 30+ years. You could say I don't get out much. I haven't seen Arcady around either.


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