# Walk away from Series 3??



## bferrell (Jun 22, 2005)

I was just curious how many folks out there, like me, have HD sets and have been biding our time, begging to get a Series 3 unit until today?

I would have paid $1,000 plus the lifetime service to get one yesterday, but with the pricing changes, I'm pretty depressed about the whole situation, and very likely will not get the S3, and certainly won't recommend Tivo to my friends and family. I think they'll have to start paying folks monthly fees to get beta testers, because they're driving the a wedge in the faithful, why would I give them my precious time?


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)




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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I was one who showed up here recently solely for my interest in the S3. I always preferred the Lifetime model and have 4 Lifetime ReplayTVs still running strong. I always knew strictly by economics that Lifetime service was the best deal that could be had - and now Tivo publicly admitted that to confirm it to be the case. All of a sudden my cable company HD DVR DCT6416 with Passport Echo looks like the winner in terms of best value for the money. Most in this forum realize that Tivo and S3 promise a richer set of features than cable company DVRs can offer, but it's not worth the cost difference per month and I think they just shot themselves in the foot.

Having said that the S3 prices have not been announced yet to my knowledge and if they were to offer the S3 at the prices announced today for S2 models I still may consider it. Anything higher though forget about it.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

I'm disappointed that Tivo is discontinuing Lifetime, but it won't keep me from buying a Series 3. 

I'm hoping that Tivo will allow a 1 time transfer of a lifetime from an existing box to a Series 3, as they did when they introduced the Series 2.


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## filburt1 (Apr 23, 2005)

bferrell said:


> I was just curious how many folks out there, like me, have HD sets and have been biding our time, begging to get a Series 3 unit until today?
> 
> I would have paid $1,000 plus the lifetime service to get one yesterday, but with the pricing changes, I'm pretty depressed about the whole situation, and very likely will not get the S3, and certainly won't recommend Tivo to my friends and family. I think they'll have to start paying folks monthly fees to get beta testers, because they're driving the a wedge in the faithful, why would I give them my precious time?


I partially agree in that I will not likely buy the Series 3 DVR if it means I must pay a higher monthly rate. I dislike companies that sell products at a loss and make a profit on a service (yes, I know, that's practically every company that offers services).

I do not have an HDTV, but I am at a minimum interested in simply dual-tuner support.

Please, people reading this thread, understand this is my opinion, and it is neither wrong nor right.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Until we see pricing on the units, it's just not that easy to figure out how the lack of lifetime service might affect my interest.

If I could get own one with a 1 year commitment for just $25-$30 per month and nothing up front, I'd probably buy 3.


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## Frankenstien (Feb 8, 2006)

dswallow said:


> If I could get own one with a 1 year commitment for just $25-$30 per month and nothing up front, I'd probably buy 3.


I feel similar. The no upfront cost option might even allow me to get a Series 3 earlier than I had planned.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Not me. They haven't even announced pricing yet.

I was planning on buying a Series 3 once the price was "reasonable" and would have probably popped for lifetime. Yeah, it's dissapointing that it won't be available for it. I am bummed. Does that mean I'll forgo the Series 3? That's unlikely.

This is what I want to do. I want to record HiDef. It would be nice if I could record TWO things at once. Oh, and I want to do all of this with a *TiVo*. Not just any DVR, but a *TiVo* Well, the Series 3 should deliver all that. The only question is "How much". Of course, that was ALWAYS a question. It's just that now, the answer may be a little different than I was expecting.

So, I'll wait. Wait to see what the pricing is. Then, decide what to do. I have a Series 1 with Lifetime. I could sell it and get cash to help offset the costs ofthe series 3. Or, I could hang onto it and simply buy the Series 3 at the outset and then get the multiple unit discount for service on the series 3.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Gregor said:


> I'm disappointed that Tivo is discontinuing Lifetime, but it won't keep me from buying a Series 3...


That's me, too. After wrestling with the Sony DHG units with free TVGOS, there is *NO WAY IN HECK* I would NOT go with TiVo, despite these developments. I've had HDTV now for three years, and suffering through the lack of time-shifting and archiving is gnawing on me.

The dust is settling, and the truth of the matter is -- I will continue to pay my $12.95/month and absorb the high intial hardware cost of the S3. I realize even that monthly fee could go up, but I'd rather pay it to TiVo, get the vastly superior guide and interface than pay it to THE MAN (read: cable company).


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Until we see pricing on the units, it's just not that easy to figure out how the lack of lifetime service might affect my interest.
> 
> If I could get own one with a 1 year commitment for just $25-$30 per month and nothing up front, I'd probably buy 3.


I am not going to pay 25-30 per month for an HD DVR. If the S3 comes to that I'd go with a cable alternative to record HD shows and stick with my S2's for everything else.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> I am not going to pay 25-30 per month for an HD DVR....


That''s already close to what you'd pay to a cable company (digital box, DVR, upgraded service, etc.).


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> I am not going to pay 25-30 per month for an HD DVR. If the S3 comes to that I'd go with a cable alternative to record HD shows and stick with my S2's for everything else.


You missed my point... $25x12 - $30x12 during the commitment period, then falling back to $12.95/$6.95 for service-only afterwards.

We're all expecting to see $700-$800 as the sales price with no service included, I think. So I was saying if I could get them each for $300-$360 including one year of service, I'd bite without complaint.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

I think that announcing there would be no further Lifetime Service frees up folks who were pinning their hopes on including that option for a S3 that they best look elsewhere if that's a dealbreaker for them. I think that TiVo needs to go further and clear the decks and let us know right now if the $6.95 additional unit charge will also be available if you intend to add the S3 to an existing TiVo setup and if transferring a Lifetime sub from an earlier series to S3 will be an option. Set the record straight and let TiVoOpsMgr and TiVoPony deal with the fallout now rather than deal with it all over again at a later date. 

I can understand why TiVo has to remove this option, but as far as I'm concerned it's a pretty clear line in the sand to those who prefer this option to say, "From this point, we go no further with you". I see folks saying they'll pay $25-$30/mo. for service on a S3. I believe you're the customers TiVo's looking for from here on out and that's understandable. I personally am not willing to pay an amount that's 40% of my programming bill for DVR charges alone. 

All I know is that a couple of months after I bought a Lifetime on a SA TiVo, I did the same with a D-TiVo. Since then I've picked up a S2 D-TiVo and a HD-TiVo ($299-$100MIR) and that Lifetime is still on my account. The DVR function is just a determent to churn for DirecTV, not it's lifeblood like it is for TiVo.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Yeah I mentioned elsewhere that this probably clobbers the S3 for me too. I don't like to say absolutely until I see the final product and the final numbers and the competition but it seems very unlikely at this point.

I just got an email out of the blue from my Mom asking whether the rate increase affects me. I told her probably not since I just won't buy any more.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

dgh said:


> Yeah I mentioned elsewhere that this probably clobbers the S3 for me too...


I'm glad I'm not the only one.

Someone actually slammed me when I mentioned it tho', saying 'It's not like you've been paying any monthly fee already.'

I'm pretty sure I'd have popped for a series 3 and LIFETIME, to achieve what I have now with my series 1s, but now....

Eh.

I do NOT like owning something, but then having to pay over and over again so that it'll continue to work.

I suppose the argument could be made that that's exactly what we do to keep our cars gassed up....


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

gastrof said:


> I do NOT like owning something, but then having to pay over and over again so that it'll continue to work.
> 
> I suppose the argument could be made that that's exactly what we do to keep our cars gassed up....


Yeah but you have to feed your TiVo electricity and program content in addition to their fee. I'm not so worried about what it's analogous too, I just think I'll find something that gets the job done for less. Previously, I've always used lifetime as the main sales point for TiVo. I've done the math at least 30 times in this forum for people who wondered why it was better than seemingly cheaper options (since they were comparing monthly to monthly). Now it's switched positions and become the more expensive option. Now it has to go on superior features being worthy of the extra amount. For the S2 with one analog-only cable tuner, that's a pretty clear loss, especially for newbies who understand things like dual tuners and digital tuners far more readily than a season pass manager and wishlists. We'll see how the S3 stacks up.


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## hitbyatrain (Aug 15, 2004)

Can I just say that I have absolutely NO problems at all with the new pricing structure as long as a similar structure applies to the S3? Let's talk about why:

1) I have the SA 8300 HD box from TW right now, and aside from it being able to do HD and have two tuners, the thing SUCKS. No season pass, no ability to see what's not going to record and why, the list goes on and on. . . 

2) I'm paying for both the cable box ($7) and the DVR ($5 or so) right now, each month, without an initial cash payment. If TiVo can offer me a clearly superior product for even $30 a month, where I own the box, have the ability to upgrade it, and can use TiVo's vastly superior user interface, software, and networking capabilities WHILE dropping BOTH of the other costs ($12 a month) in favor of a couple of cable cards (which are at the moment $2.50 a month) I'm in.

I'm thinking that a lot of folks around here haven't tried the cableco DVR boxes. I use my S2 TiVo in the bedroom on my SD set and my TW box on the hi-def--and I STILL VASTLy prefer the TiVo box because of its usability, features, and the option to customize it in many, many ways.


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## dolcevita (Jan 1, 2004)

See it's interesting, this makes it MORE likely I will get the S3 when they come out.

No question I want one...but 2 years in a row of hurricane damage (none of which was covered by the insurance) has put a serious crimp in my ability to buy any new toys this year. 

It may not be the best long-term financial deal, but bundled pricing for the S3 means I won't have to wait until I've replenished the coffers.


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## JohnTivo (Dec 2, 2002)

I was initially upset by this announcement. But since the multi unit discount is still available, I think I'm okay with this. With the multi unit discount, it would take me just about 40 months before the lifetime on two units broke even. Three years after the S3 is out, there will probably be newer technology that I'll want to upgrade to anyway. Plus, I want TIVO has a company to stay around for the long term, so if they need to do this to improve their financials, then I understand that.

Who knows, maybe enough people will complain and force TIVO to rethink eliminating the lifetime.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

dolcevita said:


> See it's interesting, this makes it MORE likely I will get the S3 when they come out.
> 
> No question I want one...but 2 years in a row of hurricane damage (none of which was covered by the insurance) has put a serious crimp in my ability to buy any new toys this year.
> 
> It may not be the best long-term financial deal, but bundled pricing for the S3 means I won't have to wait until I've replenished the coffers.


One of the things I've computed in some of those math exercises is that putting lifetime on a credit card at 20% also beats monthly. (ie you can make the same payment to the credit card company as you would pay to TiVo, but the credit card payment ends and you have resale value.) Of course, it's academic now.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dswallow said:


> You missed my point... $25x12 - $30x12 during the commitment period, then falling back to $12.95/$6.95 for service-only afterwards.
> 
> We're all expecting to see $700-$800 as the sales price with no service included, I think. So I was saying if I could get them each for $300-$360 including one year of service, I'd bite without complaint.


exactly that. If the first year upfront is 300$ and then I go to 6.95 after that because of my other TiVos - count me in.
I at first thought the MSD was going away but it is not so I am ok with the new plans

I am anxiously waiting for hardware anouncements that will be coming out the second half of 2006.

Of course I miss lifetime as a value that obviously was much greater than the company could bottom line absorb.


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## timo123 (Sep 13, 2004)

I would drop my dual tuner cable HD DVR in a heartbeat if the S3 Dual Tuner model follows this price plan. Unlike a lot of people who apparently have thousands of dollars of disposable income at hand, there was no way I would've convinced my wife why a third Tivo was needed, especially if the box is $500 or more. Plus, with the Cable DVR, I already had a HD solution with a pretty slick interface (Moxi). If Tivo extends this offer to the S3's, it automatically becomes more accessable to someone like me who can't justify spending that much money when I already have the ability to record four shows at the same time.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

When it arrives and the pricing is made clear, I will be comparing...
- Tivo Series 3 Stand Alone
- Comcast Tivo HD
- various media center homebrews 

Price is a factor, but so is open standards, DRM implementation, user-base support. It might be a tough call...


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

If our assumptions that the S3 service pricing will be the same as it is for the S2's, the S3 will still be a very strong contender for me. I have a Moxi box from my cable company now and it's very useable, but I definitely prefer my TiVo's - part of that has to do with being used to the TiVo interface, part of it has to do with TiVo being a better product.

If the S3 will network with other TiVo's as well, I think it's going to be tough for any multi-TiVo household to not look at it no matter how many more confusing pricing options TiVo throws at us 

But...I have a sneaking suspicion that S3 service pricing won't be the same as the S2's - don't know if it'll be more expensive, or if the MSD won't apply to S3's or what, but I think it's going to be more costly than the S2 service is. I have no information that this is the case, it's just something I suspect.


edit: The no more lifetime thing
isn't a big factor for me since I have
one S2 on Lifetime already. As long as
I can keep it running, paying $6.95/mo
is a better deal IMO than buying lifetime.
The being said, if the S3 doesn't qualify 
for MSD I'll be wishing they still offered lifetime as well.


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## tazzftw (Mar 26, 2005)

Well I think you can expect the bundle to go up, but the service-only plan should remain the same, as far as my speculation goes.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

I'll miss lifetime, but my overall reaction is BFD. My plans haven't changed one whit, I still plan to get an S3.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

megazone said:


> I'll miss lifetime, but my overall reaction is BFD. My plans haven't changed one whit, I still plan to get an S3.


My sentiments exactly


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

bidger said:


> I think that TiVo needs to go further and clear the decks and let us know right now if the $6.95 additional unit charge will also be available if you intend to add the S3 to an existing TiVo setup and if transferring a Lifetime sub from an earlier series to S3 will be an option. Set the record straight and let TiVoOpsMgr and TiVoPony deal with the fallout now rather than deal with it all over again at a later date.


I belive it was stated in another thread that a S3 would qualify for 6.95 if you already have an active 12.95 or higher or Lifetime unit. This assumes you bought the unit at retail, not as a bundle. I haven't seen anything on transfering a Lifetime sub from a S2 to a S3.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

The death of the lifetime subscription will have no influence on my decision to buy an S3. As it stands now, I'll buy one the day it's released


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Until TiVo actually has a product I can purchase, there is no Series 3, so there is nothing to walk away from. The first vendor to offer a standalone DVR with a compelling feature set (dual tuner ATSC and cable card) will get my business if the price is right.


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## Frankenstien (Feb 8, 2006)

Just as a point of comparison, for my area cable prices are as follows: 
1) Cost of HD Box (with PPV, MOD etc.) + HD DVR = $16.66 a month 

2) Cost of HD Box (no PPV, MOD etc.) + HD DVR = $14.90 a month 

3) Cost of CableCARD = $1.75 a month 

So, if you substitute the TiVo Series 3 in there you get 
1) Cost of Series 3 (1 time) + $12.95 service + $1.75 = $14.70 a month 

2) Cost of Bundled Series 3 & service contract + $1.75 = ? 

Now of course the Series 3 pricing hasn't been announced, but knowing the breakout of the cable option gives you something to think about once the pricing is announced. 

Oh, and if the CableCARD is only single stream then you'd need two, so plug in $3.50 instead of $1.75.


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## popechild (May 17, 2002)

Nobody was expecting the S3 to be priced at $50AR + service fees (the same as current S2 deals have been), we were expecting it (for good reason) to be much, much more ($500? $1000? + service fees). 

So what I can't figure is why everybody seems to be assuming the S3 pricing "bundles" will be at least roughly the same as what the S2 pricing is changing to? 

Knowing Tivo's track record the last year or so in "upgrades" - ie. mandatory 1-yr service agreement, "huge announcement" Kiddie stuff, and now no lifetime, I kind of expect the prices to be more like $30-$40/mo for service plans on the new S3 boxes - and here's a 3-yr contract for you to sign thank you very much.

I've had multiple Tivos since 2001 (most recently a Toshiba DVD model and the Pioneer Elite DVD recorder), always with lifetime. The Toshiba's already gone - the Pioneer's on eBay right now. 

Tivo missed the boat a long time ago with the (still counting) delay on HD support. I'm a huge fan of Tivo, but a bigger fan of HD. If that means using the crappy Moto UI so be it. I don't watch tv and marvel at the ease of the menus, I watch tv and marvel at the beauty of the hd image, and the fact that both of the two shows I wanted to watch simultaneously have been recorded. 

The S3 sounded like the answer (finally), but at the likely pricing, I'll stick with the $10/mo, no contract (big, BIG advantage) option from the cable co.


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## Frankenstien (Feb 8, 2006)

popechild said:


> So what I can't figure is why everybody seems to be assuming the S3 pricing "bundles" will be at least roughly the same as what the S2 pricing is changing to?


I don't assume what the price will be. I would guess it will be more than the S2. Knowing what the cost of the cable system just allows me to have some numbers ready to compare when the S3 pricing is announced.



popechild said:


> The S3 sounded like the answer (finally), but at the likely pricing, I'll stick with the $10/mo, no contract (big, BIG advantage) option from the cable co.


Hey, nothing wrong with that. If you're okay with the cable HD DVR then great. It's all about preference. Personally the quality of TiVo is worth the price difference to me. I like the interface, guide, wishlist, and the media features. I can easily transfer shows to my PC, edit them, and burn to a DVD.

I personally don't like the cable DVR. I had one tried it for a couple of months, then turned it in and bought a TiVo.

The S3 is still up in the air. I want an HD DVR. I am willing to pay more for TiVo.

So, if the S3 pricing isn't too crazy or if a bundled box & service plan spreads the cost out well enough I'm in. If not, then it'll be the cable HD DVR.

We'll see.


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## JasonD (Mar 30, 2003)

I probably won't buy an S3 right a way. Will wait for the market to settle out then get when when Tivo offers some refurbished units at a discount.  

Jason


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

To me, TiVo's features that I use everyday (music, web scheduling, togo, goback) are still better than any other DVR I've seen, so I wouldn't easily walk away from TiVo. They are things I would have to spend quite a bit of time and money to replace with other hardware.

But the DVR functionality alone wouldn't make me stay, if the price was higher. BUT in my case, it will not be higher (monthly) since I do not want digital cable. I still don't like the monthly plan, but I have zero interest in getting a cable DVR and be forced to pay extra for digitacl channels I will never watch.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Frankenstien said:


> So, if the S3 pricing isn't too crazy or if a bundled box & service plan spreads the cost out well enough I'm in. If not, then it'll be the cable HD DVR.


What if the warranty tied to the S3 is the same one TiVo's been using up to this point in time, 3 months parts/1 year labor? Would that influence your decision?


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## mgar (Feb 14, 2005)

I will probably be an early adopter of the S3 as long as it included Home Media Options. I am holding off on my switch to HD until I have an HD TiVo. 

Having dual tuners will be nice. I purchased a second S2 because of the single tuner. So far I have payed one lifetime at $249, on lifetime at $299, and $148 for the home media option. That adds up to $696. If you include the price I paid for the hardware I am over $1000 for my 2 S2 boxes. The dual tuner option is plus HD is certainly worth some extra cost.


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## kyle16 (Mar 1, 2006)

any ideas as to when Series 3 will be released?


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## mgar (Feb 14, 2005)

kyle16 said:


> any ideas as to when Series 3 will be released?


The only thing TiVo is saying is in the second half of this year.


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## porieux (Oct 15, 2005)

They are going to have to remove all advertising.

I hope they don't expect ppl to pay a premium price AND have to look at ads.

There is hardly anything worth watching on TV anyway...


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

kyle16 said:


> any ideas as to when Series 3 will be released?


From this week's conference call - after the mid-point of the year, but before the fall shopping season.


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## mgar (Feb 14, 2005)

porieux said:


> They are going to have to remove all advertising.
> 
> I hope they don't expect ppl to pay a premium price AND have to look at ads.
> 
> There is hardly anything worth watching on TV anyway...


Nobody is forcing you to look at ads. There are ads in TiVo Central, but they are completely non-intrusive. The hover ads, or whatever they are called, are visible when you fast forward, but they don't change the way 30 second skip or fast forward works. If it wasn't for ad revenue, it is possible that the either the subscription price or the hardware price would need to be increased. If you just ignore the ads, then your TiVo experience should be the same whether or not the ads are there.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

mgar said:


> Nobody is forcing you to look at ads. There are ads in TiVo Central, but they are completely non-intrusive. The hover ads, or whatever they are called, are visible when you fast forward, but they don't change the way 30 second skip or fast forward works. If it wasn't for ad revenue, it is possible that the either the subscription price or the hardware price would need to be increased. If you just ignore the ads, then your TiVo experience should be the same whether or not the ads are there.


I'd rather have an option to pay a slightly higher subscription fee and remove all advertising like that. The only "advertising" I want to appear are things related to programming... and even those should be optional.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

S3 already walked away from me when they ended up incompatible with satellite TV.


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## texasou812 (Mar 2, 2006)

i think i will go with my cable DVR...if they dont offer the lifetime for S3...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Well they're not going to offer lifetime on the S3 so you might as well just get that cable DVR now. Either that or buy one of those lifetime giftcards off eBay for $500+.

Dan


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

The lack of clarity over the capabilities of an S3 to work with the new switched digital video from cable or the new FIOS Verizon system are more of a worry to me than lack of Lifetime. I have so many frickin lifetime Tivos now (two old S1s and I just bought 2 S2s prior to 4/15) that I can easily add a $6.95/mo S3 without worrying.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

dswallow said:


> I'd rather have an option to pay a slightly higher subscription fee and remove all advertising like that. The only "advertising" I want to appear are things related to programming... and even those should be optional.


Proof positive you can't please any of the people .. any of the time..

With the TIVO service in Canada, you don't get the yellow star items on the main screen and you get exactly ZERO showcases. So.. it's a version of the TIVO service exactly as you describe almost..

Except I know a bunch of Canadians who'd like to have those services.. and can't get 'em.

Go figger.

J


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

ah30k said:


> I have so many frickin lifetime Tivos now (two old S1s and I just bought 2 S2s prior to 4/15) that I can easily add a $6.95/mo S3 without worrying.


What makes you certain that HD subscription fee will be same as SD fee? It should be, but I don't trust TiVo (at all).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The only way service on a S3 unit is going to be more is if the hardware is the same price as the S2 unit. There is no way they're going to charge $500-$800 for the unit plus a higher subscription fee. If they did very few people would buy them.

Dan


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

megazone said:


> I'll miss lifetime, but my overall reaction is BFD. My plans haven't changed one whit, I still plan to get an S3.


Same here....about lifetime that is, not about the S3 (which I will probably get eventually, just not any time soon). I have an S1 with lifetime. I upgraded one of my S2 boxes to lifetime before the deadline as well. I'm all set for the $6.95 fee for any future boxes I might buy; that's fine by me as an extra $6.95 is nothing to me compared with the upfront costs of buying a new TiVo box. It's too bad for new buyers who cannot take advantage of lifetime, but I think in the long term we are more likely to see all monthly fees drop to $6.95 than ever see lifetime come back. Once TiVo is big enough, has enough subscribers, and is making money from targeted advertising a la the Google model, we'll see standalone TiVos start to approach the pricing model of the DirecTiVos and the new Comcast TiVo boxes: no lifetime subs, but lower monthly fees. We're not there yet but we're moving in that direction, IMO.

Anyway, it's not the cost of the TiVo box or the TiVo subscription that will hold me back from buying a S3; it's the cost of HDTV. I'm one of those who is still not ready yet to spring for a new HDTV television set, or pay for anything more than analog cable yet. Right now I'm much more interested in the new S2 dual tuner boxes coming out. That's more targeted to my near-term needs for the next year or two. After the dust settles and I'm willing to pay for it, I'll look into upgrading to HDTV and an S3 TiVo. I think there's more people out there like me than you would know by reading this forum; we tend to make a lot less noise about the bleeding edge HDTV stuff. We're happy to let you pioneering folk take all the arrows in the back.


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

porieux said:


> They are going to have to remove all advertising.
> 
> I hope they don't expect ppl to pay a premium price AND have to look at ads.
> 
> There is hardly anything worth watching on TV anyway...


This is why most people don't "get" TiVo's business model. If they do as you advise, they would be out of business by now, like ReplayTV (which never got past the "we sell boxes with features" mentality). There is no way to make money as a pure-DVR company. Asking people to pay higher prices to avoid advertising is a sure fire way to sell fewer boxes and go out of business, *fast*. TiVo has to find a way to make money; pleasing internet critics is not going to pay the bills.

Targeted, non-intrusive advertising (think of the Google way of doing things) is the only way TiVo is going to make money long term, and will also allow them to reduce our subscription costs, long term. Advertising exists for a reason; that's why you don't have to pay for broadcast TV and radio, that's why newspapers and magazines only cost a few bucks instead of five or ten times as much if they were supported by subscribers alone. I've never heard anyone complain about being "forced" to look at advertising in newspapers and magazines. Or complain about Google ads. If it is easy to ignore, and if it is more likely to be something you might want to see, people don't have a problem with advertising - as Google has demonstrated.

Honestly, if you are freaked out by the yellow star ads or the thumbs up or popups ads, which you are not forced to look at and are entirely unobtrusive, you are far too sensitive to advertising to be allowed out into the real world without blinders and a guide dog, because you can't avoid being "forced" to look at advertising everywhere you go.

TiVo is a business. Moving into advertising is good for TiVo, and it's good for those of us who want to see TiVo prosper and eventually become low priced enough to be affordable to everyone. Catering to the I-hate-advertising-no-matter-how-unobtrusive-it-is crowd is a one way ticket to bankruptcy.

And if you don't think there is anything on TV worth watching, you obviously have never used a TiVo (or else you should probably not bother owning a TV at all, much less a TiVo). That's another myth that gets blown away by anyone who has used a TiVo for a while. There's tons of stuff out there worth watching, but you aren't going to find it by manually recording a VCR or a dumb DVR or by random channel surfing. So which is worth more to you: your time, or your money? Advertising is going to be a factor in either case. Fact of life.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Hunter Green said:


> S3 already walked away from me when they ended up incompatible with satellite TV.


I think you said that backwards. The Satellite companies are not being compelled by law to move to an open standard of access so the Satellite companies choose to be incompatible with any 3rd party DVR.

It further has been proven that Dish(Echostar) chose to even steal the technology ideas of TiVo to make their own DVR.

DirectTV it seems was only compelled to ink an extension with TiVo as the echostar case was coming to its obvious conclusion.

if you want to use a satellite provider then satellite providers have made it pretty clear they will do their own proprietary thing as much as they can get away with it.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> DirectTV it seems was only compelled to ink an extension with TiVo as the echostar case was coming to its obvious conclusion.


 It's obvious conclusion? Wow, talk about perfect hindsight. Zeo, there was NOTHING obvious in the conclusion and let's not pretend it was. If you can indeed portend "obvious conclusions" then would you so kindly please use your super-future-x-ray-vision and tell me the next Mega Millions numbers please. Pretty please.

DirecTV triggered its extension because it was the prudent course REGARDLESS of outcome. It doesn't change Direct's choice as NDS as its PVR supplier of choice nor will DirecTV push for new Tivo subscribers. To claim that Direct (or you) could fortell an "obvious conclusion" is, well, total BS. No one knew what the conclusion would -- OR WILL -- be.

And yes, I'd like the obvious conclusion to this week's MegaMillions, please. Your hindsight is 20/20. Would be nice to have such FUTURE perfect vision as well.

_ITV


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dswallow said:


> I'd rather have an option to pay a slightly higher subscription fee and remove all advertising like that. The only "advertising" I want to appear are things related to programming... and even those should be optional.


Fortunately TiVo knows that higher sub rates isn't the cure for their profitability. They have already priced themselves out of most markets where cable DVR's are available. Raising the price for an ad free experience wouldn't solve any woes. The answer to TiVo's woes is subscription numbers. And with enough numbers are the current rates they wouldn't need ad revenue.

I really think at this time TiVo is trying hard not to cross a line between being a complete sell out and just trying to supplement income from ad sales. However I also think that an element of the company sees only the bottom line and nothing else. Typically accountants can't see past the numbers and esoteric things like user issues and complaints escape them. Unfortunately given TiVo's lastluster performance I'm afraid that the beancounters may ruin the product if given the chance.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

interactiveTV said:


> It's obvious conclusion? Wow, talk about perfect hindsight. Zeo, there was NOTHING obvious in the conclusion and let's not pretend it was. <snipped out sarcastic nonsense>


Yes, I was worried when the jury took so long to deliberate before returning *willfull * infringement 



> DirecTV triggered its extension because it was the prudent course REGARDLESS of outcome. It doesn't change Direct's choice as NDS as its PVR supplier of choice nor will DirecTV push for new Tivo subscribers. To claim that Direct (or you) could fortell an "obvious conclusion" is, well, total BS. No one knew what the conclusion would -- OR WILL -- be. <snip more sarcastic nonsense>


 never said anything about DirectTV going back to using TiVo's. See you are back to your old trick of implying things in a reply that were not stated in the original post. My implication was just that they felt compelled to get an agreement that included protection from infringement suit. You want to spin the timing of the agreement some other way - have fun with that.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think you said that backwards. The Satellite companies are not being compelled by law to move to an open standard of access so the Satellite companies choose to be incompatible with any 3rd party DVR.
> 
> It further has been proven that Dish(Echostar) chose to even steal the technology ideas of TiVo to make their own DVR.
> 
> ...


I think his point was that TiVo was aware of this when they created the S3 and decided not to support Satellite boxes with it. I also think that the new DT S2 is their answer to Satellite.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> I think his point was that TiVo was aware of this when they created the S3 and decided not to support Satellite boxes with it..


yes I understood his point and long association here. He just stated it backwards is all


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

interactiveTV said:


> It's obvious conclusion? Wow, talk about perfect hindsight. Zeo, there was NOTHING obvious in the conclusion and let's not pretend it was. If you can indeed portend "obvious conclusions" then would you so kindly please use your super-future-x-ray-vision and tell me the next Mega Millions numbers please. Pretty please.


I took this comment as being just supportive of TiVo in general and not an indication that he really thought it was a forgone conclusion, just that it was his opinion. I don't think anyone could have said with any certainty how the case would have shaken out, hell it still might turn around on appeal. For TiVo's sake I hope not, for my sake I'm on the fence. If TiVo gains a monopoly on this type of technology it's going to cause rates to increase for everyone as cable companies compensate for paying off TiVo to stay out of court. This is not a win for the consumer by any means.


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## Olde Fortran (Apr 22, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes I understood his point and long association here. He just stated it backwards is all


Nah he stated it forwards. Outside of a few of us nut bags, no one is going to change their content delivery system to match a choice of a PVR. So, it's up to the PVR designer to have a solution that fits any customer they hope to have.


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## rlc1 (Sep 15, 2003)

I'm still looking forward to the S3s. But I would probably wait until the purchase price of the unit actually comes down. I am somewhat resigned to just paying whatever monthly fee it requires, whether I can get it for an additional $6.95, or whether it's another $12.95, whatever. Right now I have two Series-2 Tivos so I'm paying $19.90 a month for those. I also just got a Comcast DVR yesterday because I bought an HDTV over the weekend. So that's another $14.45 ($4.50 for the HD cable box, extra $9.95 if it is also a DVR box). Based on my initial impressions of the Comcast DVR (see my other post for comments: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=297146), I would love to replace it with a Tivo S3. I'm not sure if I would still keep both of my S2 boxes....probably would, though. It's hard to imagine getting rid of one of the S2s to save a mere $6.95 a month.

I realize some people are on tight budgets, but let's face it, if you can afford an HDTV, you can probably afford an S3 at some point, and the monthly service to go with it (if no lifetime is available).


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I didn't state it eitherwards. I just said it ended up incompatible, not who made it that way. Don't read something into the order of the sentence that isn't in the words; incompatability is commutative.


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## porieux (Oct 15, 2005)

mgar said:


> Nobody is forcing you to look at ads. There are ads in TiVo Central, but they are completely non-intrusive. The hover ads, or whatever they are called, are visible when you fast forward, but they don't change the way 30 second skip or fast forward works. If it wasn't for ad revenue, it is possible that the either the subscription price or the hardware price would need to be increased. If you just ignore the ads, then your TiVo experience should be the same whether or not the ads are there.


Thanks for deciding for me what is intrusive or not


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

I'd have to agree. Lifetime to me was probably the only way I'd consider an S3 and even then, it still would depend on total cost. Having had to wait for more then 2 years for an HD Tivo, I've been left to my own devices and because of that, I've been able to record HD to a 300 gig hard drive for just under $600 with no subscription fees.

Not as pretty as a Tivo setup, but well worth it to me.


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## ack_thbbft (Dec 30, 2004)

Cable companies' HD DVR service doesn't allow you to transfer programs to a computer like TiVo-To-Go can, to my knowledge, so I'll still look forward to the S3 when it comes out. Unless, of course, a WinMCE box can be had for less. 

Sure, the TiVo interface is the best, but recording HD content that I can then burn to DVD/HD-DVD/BluRay is my main concern, and I'd like to accomplish it as inexpensively as possible.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

ack_thbbft said:


> Cable companies' HD DVR service doesn't allow you to transfer programs to a computer like TiVo-To-Go can, to my knowledge, so I'll still look forward to the S3 when it comes out. Unless, of course, a WinMCE box can be had for less.


 On some of the solutions out there such as the Motorola DCT64xx series you can transfer recordings (or live shows) digitally to computer via firewire. I do it all the time. There are restrictions in some markets & cable companies on doing that with premium content, but if that is your prime criteria you shouldn't automatically rule out the cable company DVR as a possibility.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Olde Fortran said:


> Nah he stated it forwards. Outside of a few of us nut bags, no one is going to change their content delivery system to match a choice of a PVR. So, it's up to the PVR designer to have a solution that fits any customer they hope to have.


well true to a point. But since the cable companies were forced to go to a cable card for open access - we suddenly have a choice in digital HD DVR coming up.

And teh DirectTV TiVo was a great success of both companies working together - but still the customers lost out on new features from TiVo because the features were blocked by DirectTV.

If the sat companies gave TiVo a way to get the unencrypted stream to a tuner I am sure TiVo would happily make many direct digital to Hard drive HD DVRs for Sat.

and TiVo did make a DVR for Sat and left the ir blaster and serial cable control on the Dual Tuner model for sat as well.


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

ack_thbbft said:


> Cable companies' HD DVR service doesn't allow you to transfer programs to a computer like TiVo-To-Go can, to my knowledge, so I'll still look forward to the S3 when it comes out. Unless, of course, a WinMCE box can be had for less.
> 
> Sure, the TiVo interface is the best, but recording HD content that I can then burn to DVD/HD-DVD/BluRay is my main concern, and I'd like to accomplish it as inexpensively as possible.


I do that now with my winMCE box. I just transfer files via my network and can watch the HD shows easily just with windows file copy on any other computer or I can burn the files to DVD. I think moyekj is correct that you can record and transfer via firewire on some of the motorola boxes. That's how I'm going to have a 3 HD tuner MCE box. (Yes, 3 HD tuners on a single box.) So while the Tivo crowd is thrilled about the dual analog tuner box.... anyways, you get my point.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> And teh DirectTV TiVo was a great success of both companies working together - but still the customers lost out on new features from TiVo because the features were blocked by DirectTV.


 Well, let's be accurate here, Zeo. The features weren't "blocked." They can't be blocked. Tivo has NO RIGHT to include them. Tivo doesn't sell the box, support the box, or maintain the box. DirecTV does.

DirecTV chose not to INCLUDE them. Tivo NEVER had the right to turn whatever features it wanted on (or off) on the DirecTV boxes.

Now, before THAT becomes an issue, Tivo SIGNED that contract. Tivo didn't have to carry the SAC on those boxes, market those boxes, or deal with any customer support.

To state that DirecTV "blocked" features is just plain wrong. Those boxes don't BELONG to Tivo. Tivo has no legal right -- by a contract that TIVO signed -- to add functionality. DirecTV can't "block" something that someone has no right to do.

If you REALLY have an issue with it, I guess you should ALSO blame Tivo. After all, for SERIOUS financial consideration -- not dealing with SAC or CS or any marketing -- Tivo very willingly SIGNED THE CONTRACT.

Now, we can pretend this is the big, bad wolf preying on poor little Tivo who wants oh so badly to include all those nice little bow-tie presents for all the DirecTivo subs, but the REALITY is, DirecTV PAID A LOT OF MONEY for those subscribers. It paid the box subsidy, it paid the SAC, it actually did GOOD marketing -- from which Tivo benefited by the added brand awareness in spite of Tivo's own crappy marketing.

And what did Tivo get for all that? Millions of subs and hard, cold, needed CASH.

Considering Tivo has NO RIGHT to include features DirecTV doesn't WANT, that Tivo paid basically zilch for that installed base and gets PAID, I don't see how DirecTV is blocking anything.

If I pay for that customer, buy his box, buy the marketing that got him in, pay the support costs for the call center, email, etc., I want to decide what features he gets. Tivo CHOSE to sign the license contract.

CHOSE. The choice was Tivo's. DirecTV may not be INCLUDING things but it certainly isn't BLOCKING anything. Tivo has no right to update DirecTV software on its own. Why should it? It paid NOTHING for those boxes.

You don't get to decide on things you don't pay for. It's how the world goes and it's the REALITY of the CONTRACT TIVO SIGNED. So let's continue the conversation about how DirecTV is blocking Tivo from adding features to boxes that Tivo doesn't own.... 

_ITV

P.S. Ask the customers what they "lost out" on after you ask them what they PAY for them. What did they box for the box itself? Hmmm... Compare the monthly to the SA costs -- at WHAT a month? Compare to a cable PVR...I'd say DirecTivo customers get the BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK OUT THERE. You disagree?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

You have a bizarrely specific definition of the word "block" that I don't believe represents its common usage. TiVo has features it could have added to the DTiVos, some DTV subscribers wanted those features, but DTV prevented (or blocked) them from getting those features. Why ten paragraphs about whether and why DTV had the right to deny those features to its subscribers? Nobody disputes that it did.


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## mgar (Feb 14, 2005)

porieux said:


> Thanks for deciding for me what is intrusive or not


I wasn't defining it for you, I was just stating my opinion. You seem averse to any advertising at all in a device that you paid for, and are paying a subscription for. That's fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion.

Would you be willing to pay a little extra to have these features removed?

I would rather have "minimally" intrusive advertising if it means that Tivo can keep the price down.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

I guess that's sort of like Ford blocking me from getting a SONY TV built into the dash board of my new truck. Surely there are some truck owners who would want that option. And of course SONY would love to provide the TV's to FORD. If only FORD would stop blocking them from delivering the options I want!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

interactiveTV said:


> Well, let's be accurate here, Zeo. The features weren't "blocked." They can't be blocked. Tivo has NO RIGHT to include them. Tivo doesn't sell the box, support the box, or maintain the box. DirecTV does.
> 
> DirecTV chose not to INCLUDE them. Tivo NEVER had the right to turn whatever features it wanted on (or off) on the DirecTV boxes.


 Oh, I am so sorry. you are correct - DirectTV chose not to let the customers have those features.

maybe if you reread my post you will see that my point is that the Satellite company controls what DVR the customer gets rather than allowing for a more competive open access 



> Now, before THAT becomes an issue, Tivo SIGNED that contract. Tivo didn't have to carry the SAC on those boxes, market those boxes, or deal with any customer support.


 yep it was great deal for TiVo and they were pretty smart to extend it for 3 more years. Unfortunately customers are still left without some features some of the customers would want. And yes adding those features most likely would mean raising the rate as the customer is also getting a great deal on the DVR so DirectTV gets more subscribers and sells more Sunday tickets and so forth. No worry about DirectTV making their money off it.
And they had the great world of turning a blind eye to the underground hacking the units to release the extra features for those willing to do the work and take the risk. DirectTV never had to pay a cent for that.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Hunter Green said:


> I didn't state it eitherwards. I just said it ended up incompatible, not who made it that way. Don't read something into the order of the sentence that isn't in the words; incompatability is commutative.


I actually do agreee that you were just pointing out the incompatability.  I believe I have read other posts where you said that Dish was basically your only choice - so you were just pointing out again how your location is keeping you from having any choices. Nothing personal, I just seized on your post to rant a bit on a pet peeve of there not being enough open access to the broadcast stream to have the ability to make real choices between different makers of media products.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Oh, I am so sorry. you are correct - DirectTV chose not to let the customers have those features.


 Thank you.



ZeoTiVo said:


> maybe if you reread my post you will see that my point is that the Satellite company controls what DVR the customer gets rather than allowing for a more competive open access  .


 Yes, but the whole Justin thing of "open access" on DVR is MUCH MUCH different than Tivo and DirecTV which is a proprietary deal. On one hand, you claim DirecTV "blocks" Tivo from offering MORE functionality within its PROPRIETARY deal, on the other, you are talking about an open access dream. Two completely different things.

I did reread your post. Roll eyes all you want. You were wrong. Tivo is NOT blocked from anything. Tivo entered into a CONTRACT of its free will and DirecTV PAID THE MONEY FOR THOSE BOXES.

You want to couch it like big, bad Direct is "blocking" Tivo from adding features? Do it but not only is it WRONG, Tivo doesn't OWN those boxes. Those are DirecTV customers and DirecTV PAID FOR THEM. Or is it your point that DirecTV should buy and support the hardware AND give customers access to whatever features they want?



ZeoTiVo said:


> yep it was great deal for TiVo and they were pretty smart to extend it for 3 more years. Unfortunately customers are still left without some features some of the customers would want. And yes adding those features most likely would mean raising the rate as the customer is also getting a great deal on the DVR so DirectTV gets more subscribers and sells more Sunday tickets and so forth. No worry about DirectTV making their money off it.
> And they had the great world of turning a blind eye to the underground hacking the units to release the extra features for those willing to do the work and take the risk. DirectTV never had to pay a cent for that.


 And Tivo customers don't pay more for it either.

You made an inaccurate claim. You stated DirecTV is "blocking" Tivo from adding features and that's plain wrong.

How the DirecTV Tivo deal has anything to do with open access is beyond me. Those aren't open boxes and if Tivo had to SELL boxes to the DBS world, the price would be VERY high and the cost of SERVICE would increase as well.

I still see it as apples to oranges no matter how much you want to back peddle or how many times I re-read your post.

Tivo is not blocked from adding features to boxes it did not pay for nor owns. To say so, even in the context of some open access arguement, is completely wrong and gives 100% the wrong impression.

You should have just left it at your first 7 words. Everything else, including your "point" about open access is red herring. The CURRENT boxes and CURRENT features being "blocked" are nowhere close to open access and have nothing to do with, nor does the CURRENT model of who PAID (and pays) for those boxes.

_ITV

P.S. I wouldn't say it was a "great" deal for Tivo. It was the best it could do at the time. And the extension was written into the original deal, IIRC, at DirecTV's option so I'm unsure how Tivo was "smart" or stupid or had ANY choice at all in the extension. Or are you just making another grander point that I'm missing and the actual accuracy of things isn't what I should be reading?


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Well, after considerable investigation, I've concluded that the combination of a current Dish DVR and a D-Link MediaLounge device gives me about the same functionality as my beloved Series 2. Some things better (e.g., can stream almost any video format without transcoding, more tuners, etc.) and some things worse.

The Dish DVR should be arriving almost any day, but installation probably won't be for a few weeks. The D-Link is in place and I've uninstalled Galleon now. TiVo is still hooked to the new HDTV, and will remain so until all the shows on it have been watched or archived, but in a few weeks... it won't be recording anymore. I'm going to have a farewell party for it, I think. 

I understand why TiVo and Dish can't and won't produce a product that combines the features of both. I don't blame either of them. But I'm still sad about the result.

(I could switch to DirecTV, but that doesn't seem like a good idea right now either.)


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

interactiveTV said:


> You want to couch it like big, bad Direct is "blocking" Tivo from adding features? Do it but not only is it WRONG, Tivo doesn't OWN those boxes. Those are DirecTV customers and DirecTV PAID FOR THEM. Or is it your point that DirecTV should buy and support the hardware AND give customers access to whatever features they want?


I think if we were to look at most business deals the company doing to the purchasing usually has to pay for additional features. I think it's safe to assume that the reason Direct didn't include the features is because they didn't want to pay for them. High prices or simply an unwillingness to pay for features Direct thought should be included may be the real issue, but none of us were in the contract negotiation meetings.

Basically it puts TiVo into position of giving something away for free, or Direct for buying something it didn't want to pay for to begin with. The blame lies squarely on both parties, but it's because they were looking out for themselves and not the customer.


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## jonhunt (Jan 1, 2006)

I am a bit confused by the whole HiDef situation. I have HDTV and a series two TIVO. When I record a hidef channel the quality is wonderful. I can't image that it could be any better with a Series 3 box. Since I have lifetime I imagine I will keep the Series 2 on life support forever. I have a Humax in the bedroom without an HDTV and the quality can be awful on specific channels, so when I transfer a show from the bedroom to the TV room it's shocking the difference in quality between regular and HD.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

moyekj said:


> On some of the solutions out there such as the Motorola DCT64xx series you can transfer recordings (or live shows) digitally to computer via firewire. I do it all the time.


Pardon my ot question, but isn't that transfer realtime? As in you make the connection to your computer via firewire and then "play it out", it streams whatever you're playing on your dvr to your computer, as if you were recording via an a/v connection to a vcr or capture device?

I know it's a digital transfer, but it won't allow you to select x number of shows to transfer, start the transfer and then watch something else that was recorded on the dvr or watch live tv at the same time, will it?



not meant to be confrontational, just trying to get info. comcast is suppose to be coming to my neighorhood. Death To TWC/Brighthouse!!!!


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

jonhunt said:


> I am a bit confused by the whole HiDef situation. I have HDTV and a series two TIVO. When I record a hidef channel the quality is wonderful. I can't image that it could be any better with a Series 3 box. Since I have lifetime I imagine I will keep the Series 2 on life support forever. I have a Humax in the bedroom without an HDTV and the quality can be awful on specific channels, so when I transfer a show from the bedroom to the TV room it's shocking the difference in quality between regular and HD.


You comprehend that you're not recording HD resolutions, right? You're recording SD resolutions, The Series 3 unit will record HD resolutions.

In other words you're not seeing anything close to HD if you're always watching it via your Series 2 TiVo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

interactiveTV said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Yes, but the whole Justin thing of "open access" on DVR is MUCH MUCH different than Tivo and DirecTV which is a proprietary deal. On one hand, you claim DirecTV "blocks" Tivo


 YOu have spun it that way as you decided once again to parse every word to your own spin. Since I was speaking of satellite customers the actual implication is that DirectTV is blocking *customers* of DirecTV TiVo branded DVRs from accessing features/upgrades that are available for the hardware. It is for monetary reasons and for making the content providers feel secure about the digital content for sure. Still it is an example of how Satellite customers do not have any say or choice in the DVR they use.



> from offering MORE functionality within its PROPRIETARY deal, on the other, you are talking about an open access dream. Two completely different things.
> 
> I did reread your post. Roll eyes all you want. You were wrong. Tivo is NOT blocked from anything. Tivo entered into a CONTRACT of its free will and DirecTV PAID THE MONEY FOR THOSE BOXES.


 again it was about customers like Hunter Green not having an S3 option. *TiVo is blocked from providing a 3rd party DVR that will work with the digital satellite feed. For Cable it is not, but only due to FCC intervention. hmmmmmmmmm.....*



> <snip - the restating in yet more ways things I did not say>


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

jmoak said:


> Pardon my ot question, but isn't that transfer realtime? As in you make the connection to your computer via firewire and then "play it out", it streams whatever you're playing on your dvr to your computer, as if you were recording via an a/v connection to a vcr or capture device?
> 
> I know it's a digital transfer, but it won't allow you to select x number of shows to transfer, start the transfer and then watch something else that was recorded on the dvr or watch live tv at the same time, will it?
> 
> ...


Precisely! And it's a backdoor/hack. Matter of time before a new firmware kills the feature.

I haven't tried it with my new 6412 yet, but one of these days ...


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## jonhunt (Jan 1, 2006)

dswallow said:


> You comprehend that you're not recording HD resolutions, right? You're recording SD resolutions, The Series 3 unit will record HD resolutions.
> 
> In other words you're not seeing anything close to HD if you're always watching it via your Series 2 TiVo.


I know that, but on my television either the HiDef is really bad or the playback is really good, because what I play on TIVO that I recorded on the hidef channels looks as good as the original...and that's a lot better than the non-hidef channels.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

jonhunt said:


> I know that, but on my television either the HiDef is really bad or the playback is really good, because what I play on TIVO that I recorded on the hidef channels looks as good as the original...and that's a lot better than the non-hidef channels.


Regular NTSC can look very good. One of the problems with MPEG2 recording is that if you start with a noisy image, you get a really bad image on playback, but if you start with a very clean image, you can get rather good playback qualilty. Recording an already over-compressed signal is about the worst thing you can do -- sothat's why even SD recordings of the HD signals tend still to look a lot better than the original SD resolution channel, at least over cable or satellite where they are highly compressing the channel to begin with.

But you'll never exceed the resolution that TiVo is encoding at, which is nowhere near HD quality.

What resolution is your HD display? If it's really an ED display -- more around the 854x480, then that's probably why you think the look is very close -- because that's just not that far above what NTSC is capable of.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

jmoak said:


> Pardon my ot question, but isn't that transfer realtime? As in you make the connection to your computer via firewire and then "play it out", it streams whatever you're playing on your dvr to your computer, as if you were recording via an a/v connection to a vcr or capture device?
> 
> I know it's a digital transfer, but it won't allow you to select x number of shows to transfer, start the transfer and then watch something else that was recorded on the dvr or watch live tv at the same time, will it?
> 
> ...


 Yes you are exactly right, you are recording in real time the firewire output and during the transfer you can't do anything else so is very limited and certainly not ideal for making many transfers. For the occasional once or twice per week kind of transfers it's good enough for me. Also, for HD recordings real time transfer is actually not too bad considering the amount of data you are talking about - up to 8GB/hour or so. You can imagine with the current Series 2 Tivo's transferring that amount of data over USB would take much longer than real time. Even for Series 3 with ethernet the transfer limitation will likely be CPU limited and so don't expect it to be much faster than real time for HD recordings.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> *TiVo is blocked from providing a 3rd party DVR that will work with the digital satellite feed. For Cable it is not, but only due to FCC intervention. hmmmmmmmmm.....*


 True, but that's not what you said. You can call is "parsing words" OR we can try and be actually accurate.



ZeoTiVo said:


> And teh DirectTV TiVo was a great success of both companies working together - but still the customers lost out on new features from TiVo because the features were blocked by DirectTV[/B]


 It's tiresome, really, but on the DirecTivo, no features were blocked. DirecTV paid for the box, the customer, the support, and they get to choose what functionality that the box gets. Add more stuff, support costs go up. Considering the feature set, box cost, and service cost, it's a great deal.

The whole FCC waiver thing is a DIFFERENT issue from DirecTivo and Tivo -- or you -- weren't complaining when Tivo had the lion's share of Direct's business. So, is it out of "consumer fairness" that this new "cause" has come to light or is it out of Tivo "fairness." Considering you haven't done ANY analysis on what it would cost the DBS industry, currently in the midst of an MPEG4 upgrade, to do what you want, nor have you examined how those costs would be passed onto consumers, it seems to be a Tivo rally cry NOT a consumer one.

Tivo was "blocked" 3 years ago from making an "open" DirecTV box. Tivo wasn't complaining. It so reminds me of politics when, with NO information, judgement is passed on what is best for a population.

But, we've established, I hope, that you referenced DirecTivo -- a proprietary box -- and the comment that Tivo is "blocked" from adding features to that box is misleading at best and a complete falsehood at worst since Tivo doesn't pay for, support, or own the box so why the hell SHOULD they get to decide what goes on something they don't even own?

And in terms of the FCC and "open DBS," aren't there enough threads on that with absolutely zero analysis of what it would COST THE CONSUMER?

As I see it, DBS customers have the BEST deal out there in terms of functionality, price, and service set. Cable Card hasn't even BEGUN to live up to expectations and you want to FUTZ with DBS and put it on THAT road without even seeing how it works out with CC? That sounds more like a consumer be damned/let's get Tivo back in the DirecTV business than it does a TRUE consumer advocacy arguement.

I'm ALL for what's best for the consumer. I don't own Tivo (or News Corp) stock and could care less. I just don't see how forcing open the BEST and CHEAPEST PVR market -- for the sake of Tivo -- when we don't know ANY of the costs, how that REALLY helps the consumer.

Show me a study. Until then, YES, I will correct inaccuracies as I see them.

_ITV


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