# Interest in Custom QAM Lineups?



## stubby (Nov 20, 2008)

Currently TiVo does not support guidedata for clear QAM channels, so it's not possible to have program info, season passes, wishlists, etc. for clear QAM channels. Having cablecards or (evidently) a tuning adapter will overcome this, albeit with some extra cost.

I've developed a method to provide guidedata for clear QAM without requiring cablecards or a tuning adapter, and have successfully tested it. The method requires the owner making a restoring a backup image (akin to a drive upgrade), so it's not for everyone.

I'm looking to gauge relative interest in such an offering to see if it's worth supporting.

To provide some details, the method:

Requires you to open your tivo's case, make a backup image of the drive, and then restore an image back to your drive
Will likely result in losing any current recordings (this depends upon a number of factors)
Will provide guidedata for your clear QAM channels (allowing onscreen guide, searches, season passes, and wishlists to operate as you would expect)
Will persist through software upgrades (notwithstanding some dramatic change or a deliberate action on TiVo's part)
Will *NOT* survive a repeated Guided Setup or a Clear and Delete Everything (unless you subsequently restore from a good image)
Will likely *NOT* survive clear-QAM channel reassignment by your cable provider.
As I mentioned above, I've tested this process with a forum member who had advocating for clear QAM support, so I'll let that member comment about the method/results if desired.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

I can confirm that this method works! I now have guide data on all my clear QAM channels!

Extracting the drive image isn't all that difficult, if you are at least comfortable opening up electronics (both your TiVo and your PC) and moving the hard drive from one to the other. WinMFS is a great tool to run on your PC to extract and restore the drive image.

Note that this method maps the _antenna _guide data onto the corresponding cable channel numbers _as provided by your PSIP data_, if any. What this means is that you'll have to rerun Guided Setup first and specify both antenna and cable as your signal sources (even if you don't have an actual antenna connected). Then, you should do a channel scan to make sure you pick up all the clear QAM cable channels along with their PSIP data. At the end of that process, you should have a list of cable channel numbers and a corresponding list of antenna channel numbers, that you will then provide to stubby.

By the way, a big THANK YOU to stubby for doing what TiVo should have done a long time ago!!!!


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Am I missing something or are you not actually posting what the method is..?

Are you teasing us?


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## stubby (Nov 20, 2008)

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm thinking of offering this as a service for payment.

The actual method/process is quite technical, took considerable effort to develop, and not suitable for most folks as a DIY method.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

stubby said:


> Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm thinking of offering this as a service for payment.
> 
> The actual method/process is quite technical, took considerable effort to develop, and not suitable for most folks as a DIY method.


You might consider creating images for use by people in major markets. If you did Series3/THD/THDXL images for the top 20 markets, that would cover the majority of the folks on this forum.


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## stubby (Nov 20, 2008)

Good suggestion.

Could lead to a large number of images, which might be overkill for demand.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

edit: post removed.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

ciper said:


> Stubby : I don't like that you are trying to charge people for this "service." Did you steal this method from the discussion on DDB? A script has been created that should work on unmodified Tivos already...


Regardless of how he figured out how to do this, he made it utterly simple for me, and that is worth something (to me). I don't have the time or patience to investigate hacking forums to figure out how to do this myself; I'm happy to pay someone to do this for me. You don't have to pay for this service if you have the inclination to do it yourself; it's a free country.


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## stubby (Nov 20, 2008)

Everything I'm using is my own work. Someone else could develop something similar and release it for free, that's entirely possible. People may wish to wait to see if that happens or to wait to see if tivo will implement it.

My technique is too difficult for most (and I believe that any other method would be as well), so I'm considering offering it as a service for those interested.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

I have a suggestion that should make us all happy - share your method and continue selling the service. Those who have the ability will perform the hack themselves and the others who would rather leave it to the experts will use your service. 

I always thought the Tivo Community was about helping each other, not profiting from each other


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Are you modifying the image that they make, before its restored onto a Tivo? (If so, why couldn't you do the same modification to a drive itself?)

I don't think I want to lose all of the tons of programs I have already recorded, but am definitely interested in the idea itself.

If you actually sold images, Tivo would likely go after you.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

stubby said:


> Will *NOT* survive a repeated Guided Setup or a Clear and Delete Everything (unless you subsequently restore from a good image)
> Will likely *NOT* survive clear-QAM channel reassignment by your cable provider.


 Above 2 factors alone make this a pretty risky proposition for selling this service. Does one have to then pay for service again should one of the above happen? In the long run you would do much better to share the details of the hack and setup voluntary PayPal donations for your efforts. By sharing the details you will get a much wider base of people willing to try this out without fear of getting screwed and probably make more money in the long run, not to mention good will.


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## stubby (Nov 20, 2008)

ciper: suggestion noted

mattack: yes, the modification could be made to a drive (requires shipping it back and forth) and that would keep all recordings. Agreed about the selling of images (not my intent or goal).

moyekj: understood and agreed about the shortcomings and also an interesting suggestion regarding the donation route.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

moyekj said:


> Above 2 factors alone make this a pretty risky proposition for selling this service. Does one have to then pay for service again should one of the above happen? In the long run you would do much better to share the details of the hack and setup voluntary PayPal donations for your efforts. By sharing the details you will get a much wider base of people willing to try this out without fear of getting screwed and probably make more money in the long run, not to mention good will.


Agreed. For Comcast in the ATL, you'd have to do this at least once a year (i.e. remove/replace the HD with a new image) because they've been remapping some of the QAMs whenever new HD channels are added. We need an easier way to hack this in the Tivo, IMO.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

ciper said:


> Stubby : I don't like that you are trying to charge people for this "service." Did you steal this method from the discussion on DDB? A script has been created that should work on unmodified Tivos already...


+1


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> Agreed. For Comcast in the ATL, you'd have to do this at least once a year (i.e. remove/replace the HD with a new image) because they've been remapping some of the QAMs whenever new HD channels are added. We need an easier way to hack this in the Tivo, IMO.


*Since March07*
Comcast Atlanta has been very stable with QAM channel locations. This may only apply to the Stone Mountain headend but I have not experienced the almost daily 'hide and seek' changes that followed the complete stripping of PSIP data that happned in January07.

Since Vista already lets me map QAM/Guide data properly I think that I will wait a bit for this method to mature before comitting.

Comcast has promised that complete PSIP data will return on or before digital switchover date. I know that I laughed when I heard the story. I continue to hope that TiVo will eventually make a consumer (not Comcast) friendly decision and use the PSIP data along with the broadcast data...


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

ciper said:


> I have a suggestion that should make us all happy - share your method and continue selling the service. Those who have the ability will perform the hack themselves and the others who would rather leave it to the experts will use your service.
> 
> I always thought the Tivo Community was about helping each other, not profiting from each other


Or you could just figure it out yourself and not complain that someone won't give you their own work for free...


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

TolloNodre said:


> Or you could just figure it out yourself and not complain that someone won't give you their own work for free...


Even though it's not software I guess you don't understand the intention behind the open source community. Many of us have put effort into helping others on this forum with no expectations of compensation. For example a person with a single post to there name often means they won't be back to say thanks for helping and yet many of us still reply with a solution.

I have a multistream cable card installed in my Tivo now which gives me proper guide information. I'd like to see how this method differs from the other script for no reason other than curiosity. It may just be that we could combine the two methods to create an even better way to get the job done. Even if stubby is a genius I'm sure that others may be able to improve or streamline his method.

We all know how to upgrade our internal drives and the methods extremely well known and yet there are still companies that sell preconfigured Tivo upgrade drives. How do you explain that?

I don't like your attitude.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> For Comcast in the ATL, you'd have to do this at least once a year (i.e. remove/replace the HD with a new image) because they've been remapping some of the QAMs whenever new HD channels are added. We need an easier way to hack this in the Tivo, IMO.


It would be interesting to see what would happen if the _carrier frequency _of a clear QAM channel changed, but the PSIP data carried along with it did not. In this case, a new channel scan would be necessary to pick up the new freq, but the PSIP-provided channel number itself would not change. Note, this is just a "channel scan", not a full "Repeat Guided Setup". Stubby, do you think your hack would survive a channel scan?

Regardless, I agree with you slowbiscuit that an official TiVo solution or a simple, DIY hack would be preferable. Personally I'm fairly tired of waiting for TiVo to provide this feature  and am grateful to at least have stubby's hack for now, which is still working great for me.


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## stubby (Nov 20, 2008)

Seems there's little interest in a QAM mapping service (understandable, given the potential shortcomings). This thread got a little off-topic, but for those who might fall into the same category as Saxion (stable QAM assignments, for which they wish to have guidedata), PM me and I'll see about doing the mapping gratis, time-permitting.

For those who are interested in pursuing this on their own, JamieP's post here (link) lays things out nicely.


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## stubby (Nov 20, 2008)

Saxion said:


> It would be interesting to see what would happen if the _carrier frequency _of a clear QAM channel changed, but the PSIP data carried along with it did not. ... Stubby, do you think your hack would survive a channel scan?


Unfortunately, I don't believe that the lineup would survive a carrier frequency update.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Well, I'm DEFINITELY interested in it, and would even be VERY likely to donate some money to you if it really worked well.. But shipping drives and/or images back and forth makes me very wary. This seems morally to me to be very close to copyright infringement. If there's a way I could perform this on my own Tivo, I would. (I guess some day I'll have to go search for the other scripts someone mentions above... This sounds VERY similar to the old 'hack' about "cable + satellite".. which I referred to in the gigantic clear QAM a few years ago.)


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## sylan (Dec 10, 2008)

stubby said:


> [*]Requires you to open your tivo's case, make a backup image of the drive, and then restore an image back to your drive


A truncated backup or a full backup?


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## stubby (Nov 20, 2008)

truncated. that's why you might lose your recordings.


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## sylan (Dec 10, 2008)

I'm glad to report that this method does indeed work. I provided Stubby with the requirements listed above (check Saxion's 1st post) and I received a modified image that works exactly as advertised. Not having guide data for my clear QAM HD channels was a deal-breaker for me, and I was about ready to return the Tivo, so thank you very much Stubby.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Congrats! Keep us updated from time to time so we know it's still working


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## sylan (Dec 10, 2008)

ciper said:


> Congrats! Keep us updated from time to time so we know it's still working


Most certainly.


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## toy4two (Mar 27, 2008)

You can get it here, don't even need to mod your TIVO:

http://************.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58822

If someone wants to apply it then do an ISO of their drive and post it up on the net it will be just as easy to install as this one, and it doesn't suffer the problems this one does.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Your last post in that thread says "Anyone try this on a non-hacked box yet?", so how can you claim that you don't need to mod your Tivo?


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

mattack said:


> Your last post in that thread says "Anyone try this on a non-hacked box yet?", so how can you claim that you don't need to mod your Tivo?


Exactly and how do you even run a TCL script on a non-hacked box?


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## JamieP (Aug 3, 2004)

You can't run it on an unhacked tivo. You can pull the drive on an unhacked tivo, move it to a hacked tivo to run the script, then move it back into the unhacked tivo. The channel lineup changes _should_ be preserved and the unhacked tivo will now have clear QAM channel guide data. This is the service that stubby was offering.

The alternative would be a program on the PC side that could make these MFS modifications. With such a program, people could do this themselves without a hacked tivo. This is non trivial, but possible. It's not trivial because the publicly available tools that grok MFS on the PC side (mfs-utils and mfstools) are primitive and don't have full write access to the data structures.

I summarized things over here and stubby agreed with the summary.


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## stubby (Nov 20, 2008)

Just to close out this thread,

JamieP has again hit the nail on the head with the technical assessment. With two cases of success, I'm comfortable saying that this process works and the only remaining question is for how long (with the final answer ultimately varying upon individual details).

Judging the relative demand for QAM Mapping, I've no plans to offer a paid service and due to time constraints, I'll no longer be offering it free. Folks wishing to explore this on their own can follow JamieP's outline and utilize the newly posted script on the "other forum".


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## sylan (Dec 10, 2008)

ciper said:


> Congrats! Keep us updated from time to time so we know it's still working


In case anyone's wondering, the custom lineup still works perfectly. I think at this point the only foreseeable problem would be my cable company changing their lineup... at which time I will need to brush up on my soldering skills.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

Same here; custom lineup still going strong. It has survived multiple TiVo firmware updates, and some OTA channel list changes due to the DTV transition. Thanks again stubby, you're my hero.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

stubby said:


> Currently TiVo does not support guidedata for clear QAM channels, so it's not possible to have program info, season passes, wishlists, etc. for clear QAM channels. Having cablecards or (evidently) a tuning adapter will overcome this, albeit with some extra cost.
> 
> I've developed a method to provide guidedata for clear QAM without requiring cablecards or a tuning adapter, and have successfully tested it. The method requires the owner making a restoring a backup image (akin to a drive upgrade), so it's not for everyone.
> 
> ...





Saxion said:


> I can confirm that this method works! I now have guide data on all my clear QAM channels!
> 
> Extracting the drive image isn't all that difficult, if you are at least comfortable opening up electronics (both your TiVo and your PC) and moving the hard drive from one to the other. WinMFS is a great tool to run on your PC to extract and restore the drive image.
> 
> ...





stubby said:


> ...I'm thinking of offering this as a service for payment.
> 
> The actual method/process is quite technical, took considerable effort to develop, and not suitable for most folks as a DIY method.





Saxion said:


> > Stubby : I don't like that you are trying to charge people for this "service." Did you steal this method from the discussion on DDB? A script has been created that should work on unmodified Tivos already...
> 
> 
> Regardless of how he figured out how to do this, he made it utterly simple for me, and that is worth something (to me). I don't have the time or patience to investigate hacking forums to figure out how to do this myself; I'm happy to pay someone to do this for me. You don't have to pay for this service if you have the inclination to do it yourself; it's a free country.





ciper said:


> I have a suggestion that should make us all happy - share your method and continue selling the service. Those who have the ability will perform the hack themselves and the others who would rather leave it to the experts will use your service.
> 
> I always thought the Tivo Community was about helping each other, not profiting from each other





ciper said:


> Even though it's not software I guess you don't understand the intention behind the open source community. Many of us have put effort into helping others on this forum with no expectations of compensation. For example a person with a single post to there name often means they won't be back to say thanks for helping and yet many of us still reply with a solution.
> 
> I have a multistream cable card installed in my Tivo now which gives me proper guide information. I'd like to see how this method differs from the other script for no reason other than curiosity. It may just be that we could combine the two methods to create an even better way to get the job done. Even if stubby is a genius I'm sure that others may be able to improve or streamline his method.
> 
> ...


We all don't wish to get involved with imaging HDD upgrades. Companies which offer preconfigured HDD's or other TiVo modifications definitely have a place within the TiVo Community as long as TiVo Service itself isn't compromised. Tivo itself unofficially encourages this.

I have no interest in making such modifications myself but would certainly consider paying for them when practical, durable solutions become available at a reasonable price from a reputable source.

Why is this thread ending with the thought that a good intention killed a goose that laid golden eggs?

An amusing right-wing version of _Aesop's_ goose fable:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/cummings/cummings16.html


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

I was being a jerk. I had the idea that he was trying to hide something from us.

Now that we all know how the hack works I support the OP in charging others for the service who are unable to hack themselves.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*The more*
TiVo, Inc. resists providing program data for cable channels I pay for and receieve the closer I get to paying someone for this service. I really don't care to learn and perfect the skills to hack TiVo myself. Wondering if this works for PSIP mapped cable from EvilCast? While EvilCast does move the mapped channels about some the PSIP should remain static or the long haul requiring minimal updating and make this an even more attractive option...


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

JJ said:


> *The more*
> TiVo, Inc. resists providing program data for cable channels I pay for and receieve the closer I get to paying someone for this service. I really don't care to learn and perfect the skills to hack TiVo myself. Wondering if this works for PSIP mapped cable from EvilCast? While EvilCast does move the mapped channels about some the PSIP should remain static or the long haul requiring minimal updating and make this an even more attractive option...


I'm not sure what your point is. Tivo provides guide data for digital stations that are mapped via cable cards. Customers that don't want to use cable cards, or are in one of the few systems that don't offer cable cards to any customers (all channels are in the clear), should return tivo under the 30 day return window.

Customers that don't receive encrypted stations and don't want to pay cable card fees are free hack, or pay someone else to hack. Tivo has made it clear QAM mapping isn't on the "to do list" of new features.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lew said:


> Customers that don't receive encrypted stations and don't want to pay cable card fees are free hack, or pay someone else to hack. TiVo has made it clear QAM mapping isn't on the "to do list" of new features.


I have a gut feeling TiVo is working on this in the Series 4 model and may provide some clear QAM mapping there since they will have an interactive TiVo and presumably tru2way APIs to get the mapping in some form with out relying on cable card to be sent the mapping blindly.

PS - for people not familiar with the terms here
It would be more correct to say the script needs to be run on a *modified TiVo DVR (modded)* which is a not trivial replacement of a chip on the mainboard.

A hacked TiVo implies changes to the hard drive files - which can happen once the chip is swapped out.

the people posting this hack sound like they know what they are doing just fine - I just wanted to clarify for someone new to this stuff


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## tuvoc55 (Mar 13, 2021)

I know this is a a long shot given the age of this post but does anyone have any information about this approach? I have searched all over and I am unable to find anything. I am trying to do this with an S3 and fios where I get clear QAM as part of my subscription. Thanks in advance to anyone that can help.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

tuvoc55 said:


> I know this is a a long shot given the age of this post but does anyone have any information about this approach? I have searched all over and I am unable to find anything. I am trying to do this with an S3 and fios where I get clear QAM as part of my subscription. Thanks in advance to anyone that can help.


The site which discussed is no longer. Years ago FiOS encrypted all channels in my area. Customers were offered a free SD only low end STB for TV sets previously used on TV sets with QAM tuners.


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## tuvoc55 (Mar 13, 2021)

Thank you. I ended up putting an antenna up outside and I am able to get pretty much all of the OTA channels that I get from fios in the clear and my S3 is able to work perfectly.


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