# Game of Thrones "The Children" 6/15/14 S4E10



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I am shocked a thread hasn't been started already! 

Now that wasn't a boring episode! Tyrion finally becomes that which he has been accused of several times now. A murderer. And not just a murderer, a double murderer. And not just a double murderer, he committed patracide. On Father's Day!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I guess this is the annual end-of-the-season clear-the-payroll-for-next-year episode. 

RIP, Shae, Tywin, Hound, Jojen...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

At about 42-43 minutes I nervously thought "they're not spending enough time with Tyrion!", fearing that we'd see a quick blunt execution scene.. I'd been saying for weeks to Laurie "THIS SHOW IS ON THIN ICE....." with respect to Tyrion - kill him (especially like they were threatening to) and I might stop out of protest.. I was that angry about it..

So glad that it was Tyrion that got the privilege of killing Tywin(sp).

And did you see he used that fancy crossbow that Geoffrey used to threaten everyone with? That was Checkov's crossbow!! 

I liked how once the bells rang, baldy there realized he'd better go back to the boat and leave with Tyrion.

Sad to see The Hound go.. what a battle though!


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Happy Father's Day Tywin!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Overall, pretty satisfying episode. Best since Joffrey died. 

There are WORDS to the theme? (And I don't mean wiener, wiener, wiener!)


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Power vacuum! Is Cersei in charge?!?!


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

I'm glad the episode opened with a good shot of the gate. It's almost like they knew it was the focal point of last week's conversation.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Overall, pretty satisfying episode. Best since Joffrey died.
> 
> There are WORDS to the theme? (And I don't mean wiener, wiener, wiener!)


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## stark (Dec 31, 2003)

Davros's speech at the Iron Bank a few weeks ago was good foreshadowing. What will happen now that Tywin is no longer in control?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

All i can manage to say right now is Holy Smoke! Good episode. I can't believe we have to wait another year.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Was this episode titled "The Children" because of the girl at the tree, who said her people are known as that to the First Men, or because it focused on the children in the series (Arya, Bram, John, Tyrion), or both?

* yes, I know John and Tyrion aren't minors, but they are of the second generation.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Well...he told Shae he was sorry and he did warn Father not to say that word again.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

What was the significant of the iron coin and the code words that Arya said to the captain and can anyone translate the words. That part at the end lost me.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Tywin's bathroom was poorly designed. Door shoulda been lockable, from the inside.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

They showed it in the "Previously on Game of Thrones". Jaqar Ha'gen gave her the coin and told her to give it to any ship captain headed to Braavos. 

Valar Morghulis means "All Men Must Die".
The response, Valar Dohaeris means "All Men Must Serve". It's the traditional response to someone saying "Valar Moghulis".


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Ereth said:


> They showed it in the "Previously on Game of Thrones". Jaqar Ha'gen gave her the coin and told her to give it to any ship captain headed to Braavos.
> 
> Valar Morghulis means "All Men Must Die".
> The response, Valar Dohaeris means "All Men Must Serve". It's the traditional response to someone saying "Valar Moghulis".


He said to give it to any man of Bravos. I got he impression that whatever a shape shifter like Ha'dar is, he's like a priest or god to men of Bravos?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

smbaker said:


> Tywin's bathroom was poorly designed. Door shoulda been lockable, from the inside.


Ya think the hole in the privy hovers over the mere peasants outside of the castle?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Im assuming that Arya and Tyrion are on different ships?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Im assuming that Arya and Tyrion are on different ships?


Yes. Tyrion's left from King's Landing. Arya is near The Vale.

How 'bout that Arya evidently never went past the bloody gate to see her sister?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I like that Tywin found out that his legacy was tarnished (because of his incestuous kids) before we saw him die.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Wow!

Even with the extra 5 minutes, the episode flew by.

I thought it was a nice touch to have Arya take the coins that the Hound had stolen. "Dead men don't need silver."

I'm not sure if she left him alive because she had grown somewhat attached to him or she wanted him to suffer. Probably a mix of both.

And it turns out Varys is bolder than he thought himself. Tyrion too.

Melisandre seemed oddly interested in John. Does she have some insight into his blood?



danterner said:


> Was this episode titled "The Children" because of the girl at the tree, who said her people are known as that to the First Men, or because it focused on the children in the series (Arya, Bram, John, Tyrion), or both?
> 
> * yes, I know John and Tyrion aren't minors, but they are of the second generation.


I'm thinking both, plus also the dragons.

DreamWorks missed a good advertising moment for their new movie. 



MikeAndrews said:


> Well...he told Shae he was sorry and he did warn Father not to say that word again.


<Baelish>I did warn you...</Baelish>

I thought it was fitting that he died by crossbow, the same manner in which Robb's men were slaughtered.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Oh yeah, and Arya's list gets shorter once again by other people's hands. So far the only ones she's gotten were Polliver and a last-minute addition.

There is still a slim hope for the Mountain, however, so we'll see what the unorthodox maester will be able to do. Perhaps after he is successful in saving the Mountain, he will start a school for the Flea Bottom kids that nobody believes in, and through his crazy antics will be able to reach them in a manner that the stuffy by-the-books maesters were never able to do.

Other than the Mountain, we have:

Cersei
Ilyn Payne (the guy who beheaded Ned)
Walder Frey
Meryn Trant (the leader of the soldiers who came after Arya, and is presumed to have killed Syrio)
Melisandre
Beric Dondarrion (the guy who apparently can't be killed)
Thoros (the guy who brings Beric back)

Ilyn is probably going to die of old age soon. Walder is there too, but Petyr might have something else in store for him. With Tywin gone, the Tyrells might decide to make a move on Cersei.

Meryn Trant probably will still be around, unless it turns out Syrio also has shape-shifting powers, and he killed him, and took his place.

And Lord of Light only knows what will happen to Milesandre, Beric, and Thoros. 

Being able to be brought back to life should keep Beric around long enough for Arya to get to him, but then there's the problem of the fact that he can be brought back to life. Would she kill Thoros first, then Beric? Or does Jaqen know how to directly kill someone who can be brought back?

I guess she'll have to ask him when she gets there...


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I wish they had spent more time on Tyrion and Arya, instead of wasting it on Cersei/the Mountain and Cersei/Jaime. Maybe the Mountain scene was important as a future plot point, but I thought it was gratuitous in this episode.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeAndrews said:


> How 'bout that Arya evidently never went past the bloody gate to see her sister?


I guess New Arya (Assassin Arya) doesn't have much interest in the useless twit... 


BitbyBlit said:


> There is still a slim hope for the Mountain, however, so we'll see what the unorthodox maester will be able to do. Perhaps after he is successful in saving the Mountain, he will start a school for the Flea Bottom kids that nobody believes in, and through his crazy antics will be able to reach them in a manner that the stuffy by-the-books maesters were never able to do.


Or maybe it will spark a spin-off series.

The Walking Dead: Westeros


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Tywin's new title should be Tywin the Hypocrite.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Good finale. Expensive too between the dragons and the skeleton fight.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stark said:


> Davros's speech at the Iron Bank a few weeks ago was good foreshadowing. What will happen now that Tywin is no longer in control?


My prediction is that Stannis now has the army he just used plus 100,000 extra to help him take the Iron Throne. Mance and his men want the protection of being behind the Wall. Stannis can offer them that if they fight for him.



Shakhari said:


> I wish they had spent more time on Tyrion and Arya, instead of wasting it on Cersei/the Mountain and Cersei/Jaime. Maybe the Mountain scene was important as a future plot point, but I thought it was gratuitous in this episode.


The scene with the Mountain wasn't necessarily about him. It was mostly about the changing of the guards with the new guy taking over as Grand Maester. Cersei has shown that she hates the current one and the new guy is good at his job AND as evil as evil gets. He was made for Cersei.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

As we saw the scene, I thought the importance of the Mountain staying alive might turn out to be that if he died that the sentence on Tyrion wouldn't be as clear since both men died. If the Mountain survived, it was clear (according to their rules) that he should be sentenced to death.

It helped make it a surprise that his brother would come to free him, because I thought that was the hope they were dangling in front of us for Tyrion.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> As we saw the scene, I thought the importance of the Mountain staying alive might turn out to be that if he died that the sentence on Tyrion wouldn't be as clear since both men died. If the Mountain survived, it was clear (according to their rules) that he should be sentenced to death.


Not really...Tyrion's surrogate is dead regardless of whether the Mountain lives or dies. The gods' judgement is clear...Tyrion (through his surrogate) died in the combat.

(If the Mountain paid for his sins as well, hey, the gods like to kill two birds with one stone! )


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

How will the Mountain be different? I predict that NOW, he will be REALLY mean!


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I guess New rya (Assassin Arya) doesn't have much interest in the useless twit...


Did Arya know that Sansa was alive? I thought not. So with her Aunt dead, which she knew from the guards at the bloody gate, there was no reason to go into the Eyrie.

Awesome episode. Watched this "live" and the first time I looked at the clock it was 10PM. So much happened. Bran, is going to fly? Dany can't control her dragons and had to lock them down. Tyrion finally has enough? (only thing I didn't like was we needed to see more of Jamie and Varys plotting to get Tyrion out. I would imagine in the book we get the reasons behind it and the plan shaping...assuming it happened that way in the book). Revelation about Shea and Tywin....It's going to be a long time until next season..


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> My prediction is that Stannis now has the army he just used plus 100,000 extra to help him take the Iron Throne. Mance and his men want the protection of being behind the Wall. Stannis can offer them that if they fight for him.


Oh, I forgot to mention. I speculated last week about the possibility of someone from the realm coming to save them at the Wall. I guess it was Stannis! I guess we should have seen this coming with the big speech at the Bank. I wonder if the bank gets some added power now. And speaking of seeing things coming. The preview before the episode began sure gave a lot away. As soon as the troops started attacking Mance's men, I knew it was Stannis from the previews. And as soon as the ship captain said he was heading for Bravos, I knew from the previews that Arya was going to use the coin and secret code word. I guess they had to show the previews for that since it was a pretty old occurrence.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Arya has to think Sansa is dead or cannot be found at this point. I think the Hound said it best when he stated she cannot be saved with all her family dead. I think the look on her face said "time to get out of here".


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

mwhip said:


> Arya has to think Sansa is dead or cannot be found at this point. I think the Hound said it best when he stated she cannot be saved with all her family dead. I think the look on her face said "time to get out of here".


Exactly. No reason for her to stick around. So, not surprised she never went past the bloody gate.. If she knew Sansa was there she surely would have


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Exactly. No reason for her to stick around. So, not surprised she never went past the bloody gate.. If she knew Sansa was there she surely would have


It would have been easy for Brienne to tell Arya that Sansa was at the Eyrie, and that's where she was headed, dead aunt or not.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Mr. Soze said:


> It would have been easy for Brienne to tell Arya that Sansa was at the Eyrie, and that's where she was headed, dead aunt or not.


Does Brienne know she's there?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The skeleton fight was straight out of the old Jason And The Argonauts movie. Awesome.

I would have thought Tywin would have a better looking bathroom. He was killed on the throne, just the wrong one.

I'm going to miss The Hound. RIP, but Brienne whupped you good.

Whatever Stannis does, he better do it quickly. As Mance Rayder said, they're not dressed for the weather. Don't want to pull a Napolean or the Nazis getting stuck in Russian winter.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I felt bad for the dragons, Deneryss really has a lot to learn to be a leader. One dragon is causing problems so she locks up her only two "obedient" ones? 

She needs to learn how to manage by exception.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Does Brienne know she's there?


Brienne knows that she's alive, and that she fled King's Landing, and that the Eyrie was the most logical place for her to go.

But of course she never had the chance to have a conversation with Arya. And yes, I forgot that Arya doesn't know Sansa is still alive.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

stark said:


> *Davros's* speech at the Iron Bank a few weeks ago was good foreshadowing. What will happen now that Tywin is no longer in control?


Having a hard time now not thinking of a scene where Davros keeps asking the Iron Bank if they've seen The Doctor, and them being all confused: "This 'Doctor', he sounds like some sort of Maester. Have you asked at The Citadel?"


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

WRT Tywin: What a crappy way to go!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tywin had 2 arrows in him. One was way below his heart (hurts, but no vital organs) and the second was too high above his heart (shoulder, but no vital organs).

I'm not convinced he is dead.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

In one episode, we have seen a shift in power.

In the North, it's now Baratheon vs Bolton, with Arryn sneaking behind with Littlefinger and Sansa. Baratheon is now favorite with a victory and many more men.

In King's Landing, it's now Lannister vs Martell, with maybe Dorne being more prominent now that their Prince has been killed. Martell is probably favorite since the severe weakening of Lannister.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Those dragon collars didn't seem particularly well designed, given the shape of the dragons' necks and heads. What's to prevent them from just tilting their heads down and letting the collars clatter to the floor? At least they'll still be trapped in the catacombs (the entry to which is hopefully blocked by a well designed portcullis).


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

danterner said:


> Those dragon collars didn't seem particularly well designed, given the shape of the dragons' necks and heads. What's to prevent them from just tilting their heads down and letting the collars clatter to the floor? At least they'll still be trapped in the catacombs (the entry to which is hopefully blocked by a well designed portcullis).


and how did they just happen to have dragon collars in the catacombs?

Regardless, you would think the dragons could melt those chains


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> I felt bad for the dragons, Deneryss really has a lot to learn to be a leader. One dragon is causing problems so she locks up her only two "obedient" ones?
> 
> She needs to learn how to manage by exception.


Not sure how obedient they are, or will be in the future. Better safe than sorry I guess.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I actually felt sorry for the scaly beasts.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Not sure how obedient they are, or will be in the future. Better safe than sorry I guess.


Yeah, but it's like saying all pitbulls are bad because one bit someone.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

smbaker said:


> Tywin's bathroom was poorly designed. Door shoulda been lockable, from the inside.


Probably designed by the guy that did the portcullis in The Wall.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

danterner said:


> Those dragon collars didn't seem particularly well designed, given the shape of the dragons' necks and heads. What's to prevent them from just tilting their heads down and letting the collars clatter to the floor? At least they'll still be trapped in the catacombs (the entry to which is hopefully blocked by a well designed portcullis).


Probably designed by the same guy who was responsible for the gate at the wall


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Some thoughts:

So it seems Tywin has "acquired" Shae before the trial, and since he's her "lion" now, she truly didn't give a **** about Tyrion when she testified.

What's stopping the dragons from melting the chains with fire?

Stannis's cavalry formation was just awesome on a big screen.

I'm a bit put off by all the magic/spiritual crap in the roots of the tree. Somehow I like the White Walkers but these skeletons were just silly. Fine, "magic" animates them, but how about them making sounds with no lungs and voice box? Also, how do you define "killing" a skeleton? Too cartoonish for me.
Also, I stopped caring about what happens to Bran a long time ago. He's just a creepy cripple these days.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

I was wondering about the logistics of feeding the dragons now.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Assuming the dragon took the child to eat it, why were the bones charred?
Did he fire-burp on the skeleton after throwing it up, having eaten the flesh?

BTW, that was some big fn skull for a 3yr old girl.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Did anyone else notice one of the dragon's screams sounded like "MAMA!"?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Gunnyman said:


> Did anyone else notice one of the dragon's screams sounded like "MAMA!"?


Yes! I thought so as well. Lol


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

If I was dragged across the planet by a three-eyed Raven, who never explicitly said what I had to do, and knew that we'd be attacked by yet another version of the undead, I'd have Hodor all over him.

Who or what is that guy supposed to be?

"The child" can throw fireballs, but just happened to be a bit late to save everyone? GRRM, much?

---

It looks like Varys used a smaller version of the crate so Tyrion didn't have to take the one that Varys' snipping magician was shipped in.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> It looks like Varys used a smaller version of the crate so Tyrion didn't have to take the one that Varys' snipping magician was shipped in.


I didn't understand the last part, when we saw Vary's sitting by the crate. Did he decide the go with Tyrion, in the last minute?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> The skeleton fight was straight out of the old Jason And The Argonauts movie. Awesome.


In fact, I kept thinking they should've have hidden Ray Harryhausens name in the background somewhere for that scene. So very much like his work.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

dtle said:


> I didn't understand the last part, when we saw Vary's sitting by the crate. Did he decide the go with Tyrion, in the last minute?


It seemed that way. Once he found out KL is no longer safe for him.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> and how did they just happen to have dragon collars in the catacombs?


I don't think they "happened to have them"; I think they had them made and set in place so she could then trap the dragons down there.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

stark said:


> Davros's speech at the Iron Bank a few weeks ago was good foreshadowing. What will happen now that Tywin is no longer in control?


That, and Davos & Melisandre telling Stannis he was destined to fight battles in the North.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Maybe but on the show she said "Meet me in the catacombs", then cuts to her bringing the dragons in like it happened immediately after.


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## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

Loved this episode.. Best one yet!!!
I for one liked the injection of magic in to the what was seemingly a low magic realm.
I wasn't shocked about the timing of the rescue by "the children" I mean, they were waiting for Bran and company, but it was almost like a trial trying to get there.

Also JoJen knew he was going to die - if they all know what happens in the future, perhaps they know not to mess with timelines?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

tlc said:


> Probably designed by the guy that did the portcullis in The Wall.





stalemate said:


> Probably designed by the same guy who was responsible for the gate at the wall


Any speculation on who this mystery man may be? There's too many things "poorly designed" (the castle gate, the dragon collars, and Tywin's bathroom door) for it to all be a coincidence.

Somewhere we have a rogue engineer after the Iron Throne.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

dtle said:


> I didn't understand the last part, when we saw Vary's sitting by the crate. Did he decide the go with Tyrion, in the last minute?


When Varys heard the bells start tolling, he knew someone very important was dead and that Tyrion must have done it. He knew he would be associated with whatever it was so it was time to cut and run.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> When Varys heard the bells start tolling, he knew someone very important was dead and that Tyrion must have done it. He knew he would associated with whatever it was so it was time to cut and run.


Well he most certainly will be now that he is missing, if he didn't run he might have been able to salvage his reputation.

But Varys is smart so what he did is probably the best choice.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> When Varys heard the bells start tolling, he knew someone very important was dead and that Tyrion must have done it. He knew he would associated with whatever it was so it was time to cut and run.


But hadn't Varys already looked in the bathroom and seen what had happened? Wasnt that when he asked Tyrion "What have you done!? "


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> But hadn't Varys already looked in the bathroom and seen what had happened? Wasnt that when he asked Tyrion "What have you done!? "


No. Varys was somewhere else. Remember, Tyrion looked up the stairs (which is where Varys was) and then went somewhere else. When he finally did get to Varys, he had been "missing" for a while.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Yeah I think Varys just knew something was up based on the time that had elapsed and the look on Tyrion's face.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> Maybe but on the show she said "Meet me in the catacombs", then cuts to her bringing the dragons in like it happened immediately after.


Right, because the catacombs where where they had set up the chains.

They've been having dragon trouble for a while now. The dead child was just the trigger that made her put Operation DragonChain into effect.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

dot


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Right, because the catacombs where where they had set up the chains.
> 
> They've been having dragon trouble for a while now. The dead child was just the trigger that made her put Operation DragonChain into effect.


But I only saw 2 chains, where is the 3rd one if they were planning for this?


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> At about 42-43 minutes I nervously thought "they're not spending enough time with Tyrion!", fearing that we'd see a quick blunt execution scene.. I'd been saying for weeks to Laurie "THIS SHOW IS ON THIN ICE....." with respect to Tyrion - kill him (especially like they were threatening to) and I might stop out of protest.. I was that angry about it..
> 
> So glad that it was Tyrion that got the privilege of killing Tywin(sp).
> 
> And did you see he used that fancy crossbow that Geoffrey used to threaten everyone with? That was Checkov's crossbow!!


I really thought Tyrion was going after Cersei when he went back for the crossbow. Didn't see that confrontation with his father coming  :up:

He warned you about calling Shae a whore


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> No. Varys was somewhere else. Remember, Tyrion looked up the stairs (which is where Varys was) and then went somewhere else. When he finally did get to Varys, he had been "missing" for a while.


I just rewatched scene when he finally goes to Varys and you are correct.

So....Varys just assumed by the look on his face that he had done something bad, but he didn't know what. Then when he heard the bells he figured it out?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> I just rewatched scene when he finally goes to Varys and you are correct.
> 
> So....Varys just assumed by the look on his face that he had done something bad, but he didn't know what. Then when he heard the bells he figured it out?


They ring the bells like that when someone important has died. The king or the Hand. So when he heard the bells, he knew someone very high up was dead and Tyrion had been missing for a while. He's a smart guy, he can add 2 + 2.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> They ring the bells like that when someone important has died. The king or the Hand. So when he heard the bells, he knew someone very high up was dead and Tyrion had been missing for a while. He's a smart guy, he can add 2 + 2.


I think he's got no balls


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## Shahzad (Sep 3, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Tywin had 2 arrows in him. One was way below his heart (hurts, but no vital organs) and the second was too high above his heart (shoulder, but no vital organs).
> 
> I'm not convinced he is dead.


The tolling of the bells didn't convince you?


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

When Littlefinger brought Sansa to the Eyrie he brought her in under a fake name. Only Littlefinger the Aunt and her son knows who she is. Well that 3 person council knows but I don't think they were going to tell everyone. Then Littlefinger, Sansa and Robin left the Eyrie so there is no way anyone could tell Arya that Sansa is alive.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Now that Arya is on a ship, what do you expect will come of Brienne's knowledge that she is alive?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Shahzad said:


> The tolling of the bells didn't convince you?


Well to be fair, the tolling of the bells could be like "There is an emergency in the tower of the hand, get there now!"


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

I wonder if Jaime will be the next Hand, it doesn't appear to be a good business to be in.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Anyone really thinks Tyrion cared at that point that Tywin called her a whore? He would probably agree with him if he didn't hate him so much.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> Well to be fair, the tolling of the bells could be like "There is an emergency in the tower of the hand, get there now!"


No. They will ring the bells a few times for an emergency. When they go on and on, that means a high death.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

getreal said:


> Now that Arya is on a ship, what do you expect will come of Brienne's knowledge that she is alive?


Brienne: "Really, I saw Arya Stark. She was hanging out with The Hound!"

Skeptical Listener: "Sure she was.... Was Elvis there, too, singing 'The Bear and the Maiden Fair'?"


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> "The child" can throw fireballs, but just happened to be a bit late to save everyone? GRRM, much?


You can't blame the fireballs on GRRM.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Anyone really thinks Tyrion cared at that point that Tywin called her a whore? He would probably agree with him if he didn't hate him so much.


That was a loaded word to Tyrion, especially coming from his father. Remember what happened to the first whore that Tyrion married?


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

A couple of quick thoughts:
Last season thrashed the Starks, this season thrashed the Lannisters
Danereys learning it is easier to conquer than rule
Tywin, going out like Elvis (different cause same location)
There has to be a new Hand, but who would want the job?
Did they say where that ship with Tyrion and Varys is going?
Did Arya get passage for her horse as well?
Brianne going Mike Tyson on the hound
I thought the tree was going to be Westeros' version of Lourdes, but I guess not.
That dragon didn't go rogue, that dragon went Dragon!
Where are Margery and Lady Oleanna?

OK now some longer thoughts:
Remember Bran's vision back in S4E1? Specifically the dragon flying over King's Landing? Recall that we only saw the dragon's shadow, not the dragon, so that was a "dragon's eye view". The old guy in he tree said "you won't walk, but you will fly", Can Bran warg into a dragon? Will he?

Going on the theory that Jon Snow is actually the bastard of Regar Targarian and Ned's sister, do you think that Mellisandre would be able to detect that? There are fewer and fewer people who could answer that question definitively.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

smbaker said:


> Any speculation on who this mystery man may be? There's too many things "poorly designed" (the castle gate, the dragon collars, and Tywin's bathroom door) for it to all be a coincidence. Somewhere we have a rogue engineer after the Iron Throne.


Hodor? communication snafu trying to get his point across to the construction crew(s)?

"No, no, your other hodor! hodor! hodor!"


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Anyone really thinks Tyrion cared at that point that Tywin called her a whore? He would probably agree with him if he didn't hate him so much.


This was somewhat different in the book and the motivation was much clearer. The deaths played out the same way, but there was more backstory. Without that, I agree that there was a little bit lacking.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

zordude said:


> I wonder if Jaime will be the next Hand, it doesn't appear to be a good business to be in.


There is an inside joke there somewhere.


----------



## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Today I learned royal privys are crap. Where are the Queer Eye for the Straight Guy of Westeros?

Also Mance's 100,000 army was like 1000 fighters and 99,000 cooks.

So is Bran going to body meld with 3 Eye? Thats what it seems to me the dude was getting old and the tree needed a replacement.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> No. They will ring the bells a few times for an emergency. When they go on and on, that means a high death.


How do you know that, did they mention it in the show?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> How do you know that, did they mention it in the show?


It's in the book but you heard the bells when there was that fire at Winterfell. And the bells when Robert and Joffrey died.


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

zordude said:


> I wonder if Jaime will be the next Hand, it doesn't appear to be a good business to be in.


It has a lousy severance package.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Some thoughts: So it seems Tywin has "acquired" Shae before the trial, and since he's her "lion" now, she truly didn't give a **** about Tyrion when she testified.


Yes, but how much before the trial? Was she ever really in love with Tyrion, or was she placed there by Tywin from the start as a means of indirectly manipulating him? Did she ever actually get on the boat when Tyrion sent her away, or did she just return back to Tywin?



MikeAndrews said:


> Who or what is that guy supposed to be? "The child" can throw fireballs


There are some who call him... Tim.



smbaker said:


> Any speculation on who this mystery man may be? There's too many things "poorly designed" (the castle gate, the dragon collars, and Tywin's bathroom door) for it to all be a coincidence. Somewhere we have a rogue engineer after the Iron Throne.


Not to mention a throne made out of swords.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

tiassa said:


> Where are Margery and Lady Oleanna?


Different bathroom for the ladies.



danterner said:


> Not to mention a throne made out of swords.


Excellent point!


----------



## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

So, I watched 15 episodes of this show over the weekend. A lot of really cool things happened that I had no clue about. I had heard the red wedding mentioned many times, but didn't realize I saw it until it was over. Somehow, I had never heard that Joffrey(sp) got poisoned. That was so satisfying seeing that little punked dead. 

Next season, I really need to keep up with the show.


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm going to miss The Hound. RIP, but Brienne whupped you good.


"Yarp!"

--Carlos V.


----------



## TomK (May 22, 2001)

Just where did all of Stannis' army come from? And how did they get north of the wall?


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

I hope there will never be a Lego version of GoT.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> Yeah, but it's like saying all pitbulls are bad because one bit someone.


Actually it's more like saying, all pitulls in a specific litter are bad because one bit someone. It's definitely, based on genetics, a good assumption.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

getreal said:


> I hope there will never be a Lego version of GoT.


They're working on it actually. They've had most of it designed and completed. They can't get the gate in the wall to work right and are holding everything else up till that's done.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

TomK said:


> Just where did all of Stannis' army come from? And how did they get north of the wall?


Purchased with the Braavos money and sailed around the Wall.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

jakerock said:


> They're working on it actually. They've had most of it designed and completed. They can't get the gate in the wall to work right and are holding everything else up till that's done.


Well done!


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

TomK said:


> Just where did all of Stannis' army come from? And how did they get north of the wall?


I thought this all played out just SOUTH of the wall.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

markp99 said:


> I thought this all played out just SOUTH of the wall.


Nope. North.

Remember, Jon went out through the gate to meet with Mance, and that's where Stannis caught up with Mance's army.

And if Stannis can get an army to Westeros from Braavos, he's got what it takes to send them further north, around the Wall.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

markp99 said:


> I thought this all played out just SOUTH of the wall.


You are wrong. Jon Snow left Castle Black via the gate on the North side of the wall to Met with Rader. I assume that Stannis' fleet sailed around the east end of the wall to get to the fight. I'm wondering if he is going to take his army back through Castle Black, or go back to his boats.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Thx. Guess I need to recalibrate my GoT compass


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

tiassa said:


> Going on the theory that Jon Snow is actually the bastard of Regar Targarian and Ned's sister, do you think that Mellisandre would be able to detect that? There are fewer and fewer people who could answer that question definitively.


I have never seen that as a theory. Jon has always been Ned Stark's son. It's theorized that his mother was a princess, but we don't know who she was.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

ducker said:


> I for one liked the injection of magic in to the what was seemingly a low magic realm.


I'm not a fan of magic. Magic means the author can pull anything out of his butt and we're just supposed to accept it because, well, it's magic. I can't stand shows with witches so I probably need to steer clear of the CW.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I have never seen that as a theory. Jon has always been Ned Stark's son. It's theorized that his mother was a princess, but we don't know who she was.


There are a few ideas that get tossed around.

I've always sort of suspected that he is Ned's sister Lyanna's....at one time, believing Robert to be the father - but that doesn't seem like it would matter enough anymore to be a secret.

Since Rhaegar was the other man in her life (for whatever reason) - it makes some sense, if you believe Lyanna to be the mother.

That's all suspicions drawn from the TV show history/dialogue.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

I don't know how anyone can keep track of these weird names if you haven't seen them in print (i.e., read the books). I'm always playing catch-up re: who's who.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

There are articles posted by plenty of sources, every week, for each episode. Seriously, if you're not careful, you trip over them. Read enough of them and the characters become familiar to you.

...and then there's always google to make sure you spell things correctly.

I just rewatched the first season, and IMO, they plant the seeds pretty well for some interesting Jon Snow blood line questions.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

TomK said:


> Just where did all of Stannis' army come from? And how did they get north of the wall?


They didn't explain it but they came by boat to the Night's Watch fort by the sea. Eastwatch, I believe it is, and rode from there to arrive just in time!


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

TomK said:


> Just where did all of Stannis' army come from? And how did they get north of the wall?


No one expects the Stannis Inquisition!

Shamelessly stolen from elsewhere.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

MonsterJoe said:


> There are a few ideas that get tossed around.
> 
> I've always sort of suspected that he is Ned's sister Lyanna's....at one time, believing Robert to be the father - but that doesn't seem like it would matter enough anymore to be a secret.
> 
> ...


Also, Ned fathering a bastard is completely out of character from everything else we know about him (do you really think Ned would break his wedding vows?) Lying to protect his sister's child with Rhaegar (when Robert had ordered the death of all Targarians), on the other hand, would be honorable. I think it's a good theory that also puts a different spin on the name of the book series.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Fantastic episode! For anyone who complained that the previous episode focused solely on the Wall and didn't visit any of the other story lines, they certainly made up for it with this one. We finally got some great payoffs:

-Stanis and Co. swooping in to save the day at the Wall.
-Bran and crew fighting the skeletons and talking to the magic tree.
-Brienne finding Arya and fighting The Hound.
-Tyrion discovering Shae's betrayal and killing her and his father.
-Tryion escaping on the ship with Varys.
-Arya handing over the coin and getting on the ship.

One quick thought. Would it really have been that easy for someone to sneak around the castle and enter Tywin's personal chambers? Wouldn't there be guards all over the place?


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

3D said:


> Also, Ned fathering a bastard is completely out of character from everything else we know about him (do you really think Ned would break his wedding vows?) Lying to protect his sister's child with Rhaegar (when Robert had ordered the death of all Targarians), on the other hand, would be honorable. I think it's a good theory that also puts a different spin on the name of the book series.


Right .

Abandoning honor to get laid? Not very Ned.

Taking the 'hit' on his own honor to protect the honor and safety of his blood? Very much honorable. Very much Ned.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

zordude said:


> Good finale. Expensive too between the dragons and the skeleton fight.


Don't forget the battle scene in the snow outside the wall.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

tiassa said:


> Remember Bran's vision back in S4E1? Specifically the dragon flying over King's Landing? Recall that we only saw the dragon's shadow, not the dragon, so that was a "dragon's eye view". The old guy in he tree said "you won't walk, but you will fly", Can Bran warg into a dragon? Will he?


I think this is an excellent theory. You may very well be right on the money with this prediction. It's clear that GRRM is setting up Bran to be a major player in things to come.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

gweempose said:


> One quick thought. Would it really have been that easy for someone to sneak around the castle and enter Tywin's personal chambers? Wouldn't there be guards all over the place?


He came in a secret entrance. That's why he came up through the floor instead of walking in a door.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

smbaker said:


> Any speculation on who this mystery man may be? There's too many things "poorly designed" (the castle gate, the dragon collars, and Tywin's bathroom door) for it to all be a coincidence.
> 
> Somewhere we have a rogue engineer after the Iron Throne.


He's a government contractor. He may have poor designs, but at least he also has chronic cost overruns and gets promoted to new and better jobs.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

mwhip said:


> When Littlefinger brought Sansa to the Eyrie he brought her in under a fake name. Only Littlefinger the Aunt and her son knows who she is. Well that 3 person council knows but I don't think they were going to tell everyone. Then Littlefinger, Sansa and Robin left the Eyrie so there is no way anyone could tell Arya that Sansa is alive.


You'd think that the guards, being good doormen, would announce to those in the castle who was at the gate. Consider that all of the Arryns know who Sansa is.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Brienne knows that she's alive, and that she fled King's Landing, and that the Eyrie was the most logical place for her to go.
> 
> But of course she never had the chance to have a conversation with Arya. And yes, I forgot that Arya doesn't know Sansa is still alive.


Where was Brienne going to take Arya when she found her, as the Hound stated "no place is safe".


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Johncv said:


> Where was Brienne going to take Arya when she found her, as the Hound stated "no place is safe".


She swore to her mother to protect the Stark children, so the first thing she wanted to do was protect her. So I'm not sure she even knew for sure.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

MonsterJoe said:


> Right .
> 
> Abandoning honor to get laid? Not very Ned.
> 
> Taking the 'hit' on his own honor to protect the honor and safety of his blood? Very much honorable. Very much Ned.


Not to mention that if Jon was the result of Ned and some random floozie, Ned would be more likely to set the mother and child up somewhere where "they wouldn't want for anything" (as he did with at least one of Robert's bastards) instead of dragging him back to Winterfell to raise "as his own".


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> It seemed that way. Once he found out KL is no longer safe for him.


Seem to me King's Landing is not going to be safe for anyone soon, you would think more people would be fleeing.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Funny - I was just thinking that it's probably safer now than it's been in a while.

If it's not safe for anyone, it's probably the Lannisters.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tiassa said:


> ...
> OK now some longer thoughts:
> Remember Bran's vision back in S4E1? Specifically the dragon flying over King's Landing? Recall that we only saw the dragon's shadow, not the dragon, so that was a "dragon's eye view". The old guy in he tree said "you won't walk, but you will fly", Can Bran warg into a dragon? Will he?
> 
> Going on the theory that Jon Snow is actually the bastard of Regar Targarian and Ned's sister, do you think that Mellisandre would be able to detect that? There are fewer and fewer people who could answer that question definitively.





MonsterJoe said:


> There are a few ideas that get tossed around.
> 
> I've always sort of suspected that he is Ned's sister Lyanna's....at one time, believing Robert to be the father - but that doesn't seem like it would matter enough anymore to be a secret.
> 
> ...


We also had Maester Aemon Targaryen saying that he had a great love. We can can guess that he's too old to be John Snow's father.



gweempose said:


> ...One quick thought. Would it really have been that easy for someone to sneak around the castle and enter Tywin's personal chambers? Wouldn't there be guards all over the place?


Tyrion used the secret trap door into the Hand's quarters that he knew about. Remember that Tyrion was the previous Hand.

Jamie told him, "Tap twice, then twice again on the door at the top of the stairs," which is the one that was being watched by Varys.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

MikeAndrews said:


> You'd think that the guards, being good doormen, would announce to those in the castle who was at the gate. Consider that all of the Arryns know who Sansa is.


Were Sansa, Robyn, and Littlefinger in the Aerie when Arya arrived? Hadn't theye embarked on the "Robyn Arryn Grand Tour of the Vale" (which will be cut tragically short)


----------



## spear (Oct 11, 2006)

getreal said:


> I don't know how anyone can keep track of these weird names if you haven't seen them in print (i.e., read the books). I'm always playing catch-up re: who's who.


For scripted shows, I always watch with subtitles.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> They ring the bells like that when someone important has died. The king or the Hand. So when he heard the bells, he knew someone very high up was dead and Tyrion had been missing for a while. He's a smart guy, he can add 2 + 2.


Look like being "The Hand of the King" is becoming a "dead end position", so who next in line to die or become Hand of the King? Jaime?


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> You'd think that the guards, being good doormen, would announce to those in the castle who was at the gate. Consider that all of the Arryns know who Sansa is.


I got the impression that that gate was near the border of the Veil; a fair ways from the Eerie. Probably takes a while to get a message between them. (And I thought knowledge that Sansa was there was still being pretty tightly held. Obviously the three interrogating Little Finger now know, but I didn't get the impression her presence as Sansa Stark was made public)



MonsterJoe said:


> Funny - I was just thinking that it's probably safer now than it's been in a while.
> 
> If it's not safe for anyone, it's probably the Lannisters.


I don't know. Cierce isn't exactly the most stable person, and she's probably more or less in control of King's Landing now... I could see the city devolving into chaos surprisingly quickly.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Did anyone get a good look at "The Magic Tree", I think I counted eight stone pillars surrounding the tree, assuming one for each Kingdom, if this is true, what is the eighth Kingdom? Or am I reading too much into this?


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Johncv said:


> Look like being "The Hand of the King" is becoming a "dead end position", so who next in line to die or become Hand of the King? Jaime?


It's an appointed position, so it can be whomever the king chooses. I say they promote that Tyrell guy they put on the small council.

I doubt that Jaime wants the job.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The big question at this point is, who's going to be regent? You've got Cersei, who would be a disaster, and everybody else, who by getting it would seriously piss off whoever didn't get it. I.e., anybody else would represent a major shift in power away from the Lannisters to...whoever. And as much as we love to hate the Lannisters, they did manage to keep things under control, winning a war on several fronts and clamping down on all opposition. Now, there's no Lannister who can keep that going, and nobody else who has the kind of power to replace them. Plus all hell slowly breaking loose all over the seven kingdoms, and...

A very Chinese kind of interesting times!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I have never seen that as a theory. Jon has always been Ned Stark's son. It's theorized that his mother was a princess, but we don't know who she was.


As a matter of fact, in a moment of sheer brilliance, I put forth that theory a few weeks ago thinking I was my usual genius self 

only to be mocked for being late to the party and told that many many people have had that same theory.

I still think it makes perfect sense. Which is why even Robert did not know who the mother was (and Robert is Ned's best friend and they were inseparable at the time since they were fighting a war side by side).

I have no doubt in my mind that Danny is NOT the last dragon. I can't wait to see if fire can hurt Jon Snow.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Anubys said:


> As a matter of fact, in a moment of sheer brilliance, I put forth that theory a few weeks ago thinking I was my usual genius self
> 
> only to be mocked for being late to the party and told that many many people have had that same theory.
> 
> ...


Fire can hurt Jon Snow. He burned himself protecting Mormont from the wight.

Not all Targaryens are impervious to fire, though.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Jstkiddn said:


> I actually felt sorry for the scaly beasts.


Me too--so sad tying them up like that. 



vertigo235 said:


> But I only saw 2 chains, where is the 3rd one if they were planning for this?


Drogon is way bigger than these 2 isn't he? Maybe he will have his own catacomb. Or maybe they just don't think they'll ever get him to come close enough. He may be smarter too.



Jonathan_S said:


> I really thought Tyrion was going after Cersei when he went back for the crossbow.


Too bad he didn't have time to do that too.



Steveknj said:


> She swore to her mother to protect the Stark children, so the first thing she wanted to do was protect her. So I'm not sure she even knew for sure.


Since she trusts Jaime, she probably would have taken her back there to show him that she kept her oath. Of course, that would be the worst place for Arya.

It's hard to imagine this what, 10 or 12 year old girl traveling all over the place by herself and thinking she has no family. Too bad she couldn't get the captain to take her to the Wall to see Jon.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> only to be mocked for being late to the party and told that many many people have had that same theory.


A theory so obvious even Anubys could come up with it! 

But seriously, it fits all the facts in a very elegant way, so I'm inclined to believe it. Even if I had to figure it out by reading it online. (In a wiki entry...I read it, and thought "Well, dang, that makes PERFECT sense!")


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I have no doubt in my mind that Danny is NOT the last dragon.


My money is on Tiamak.










He possesses the power of The Glow.


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The big question at this point is, who's going to be regent?


My guess is that Jaime will step up and fill his father's shoes. He is the only person that makes sense if the Lannisters want to maintain control of Westeros. Cersei and him appear to have "mended' their differences in this last episode, so I would think she would fully support Jaime as regent. Plus, the king is their son, so they both obviously want what's best for Tommen. Jaime may not be as cunning or ruthless as Tywin, but I can't think of anyone more capable to fill the position at this point.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> Melisandre seemed oddly interested in John. Does she have some insight into his blood?


She knows that Jon has the blood of kings in him. As Ned's son, he would be the half-brother of the King in the North (Robb, or Bran).



tiassa said:


> Going on the theory that Jon Snow is actually the bastard of Regar Targarian and Ned's sister, do you think that Mellisandre would be able to detect that? There are fewer and fewer people who could answer that question definitively.


I don't think so. She might recognize that he has the blood of Kings, but see above.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

What about Gendry? We haven't seen him since he was shipped off to King's Landing?


----------



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> What about Gendry? We haven't seen him since he was shipped off to King's Landing?


I completely forgot about him. That scene where Davos sends him off in the rowboat seems so long ago. Was that at the end of last season?


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So are Jaime and Cercie back together now, or did he lose her by choosing Tyrion? I wonder if he will be blamed for letting Tyrion go or if the blame will all go on Varys. They didn't show how he got him out, but he must have drugged some guards or something.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

zordude said:


> Good finale. Expensive too between the dragons and the skeleton fight.


And the overhead CGI shots of Stannis' army charging in.



vertigo235 said:


> Yeah I think Varys just knew something was up based on the time that had elapsed and the look on Tyrion's face.


And the blood and scratches on Tyrion's face.



kaszeta said:


> Brienne: "Really, I saw Arya Stark. She was hanging out with The Hound!" Skeptical Listener: "Sure she was.... Was Elvis there, too, singing 'The Bear and the Maiden Fair'?"


No, it was the other one. 



MonsterJoe said:


> I just rewatched the first season, and IMO, they plant the seeds pretty well for some interesting Jon Snow blood line questions.


Well, there's also the much-publicized fact that GRRM only decided to let Benioff and Weiss make the show after they correctly answered his question about who is Jon Snow's mother.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> They didn't show how he got him out, but he must have drugged some guards or something.


There were piles of guards along the walls as they were leaving the cell. I just assumed that he killed them all.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Did Arya know that Sansa was alive? I thought not. So with her Aunt dead, which she knew from the guards at the bloody gate, there was no reason to go into the Eyrie.





Steveknj said:


> Does Brienne know she's there?





MikeAndrews said:


> You'd think that the guards, being good doormen, would announce to those in the castle who was at the gate. Consider that all of the Arryns know who Sansa is.


I'm quite sure that virtually no one knows Sansa is there. Remember she's still wanted by the king for suspicion of regicide. I'd be shocked if they announced her presence to the entire Vale; why would they?



Jstkiddn said:


> That was a loaded word to Tyrion, especially coming from his father. Remember what happened to the first whore that Tyrion married?


Did they talk about this in the TV show? I don't remember that.



tiassa said:


> Were Sansa, Robyn, and Littlefinger in the Aerie when Arya arrived? Hadn't theye embarked on the "Robyn Arryn Grand Tour of the Vale" (which will be cut tragically short)


Why will it be cut short? Do you think Peytr will get rid of Robyn? I don't see how that's a smart move for Peytr. Much, much better to keep Robyn around, who has undisputed rights to the Vale, as long as Peytr can control him. With both Robyn and his mother gone, what claim does Peytr have?


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

madscientist said:


> I'm quite sure that virtually no one knows Sansa is there. Remember she's still wanted by the king for suspicion of regicide. I'd be shocked if they announced her presence to the entire Vale; why would they?


Also, remember the whole thing where she's pretending to be someone else so that nobody knows she's Sansa.



> Did they talk about this in the TV show? I don't remember that.


Pretty sure they did.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

madscientist said:


> Did they talk about this in the TV show? I don't remember that.


Tyrion told the story of Tysha to Shae and Bronn when Bronn first brought Shae to him.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Melisandre seemed oddly interested in John. Does she have some insight into his blood?


My first thought was that she is his mother. Witchcraft and all that. But it is more likely she has seen his future.


----------



## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

So where was Arya Stark going on the ship, was that ever decided?


----------



## rhuntington3 (May 1, 2001)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> So where was Arya Stark going on the ship, was that ever decided?


Braavos I think.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, on the screen the ship was headed towards the Wall, but I think that was just bad "directing" (CGI, whatever); logically, given the coin and its significance, Braavos makes sense.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, on the screen the ship was headed towards the Wall, but I think that was just bad "directing" (CGI, whatever); logically, given the coin and its significance, Braavos makes sense.


1) I'm not sure what you mean about the CGI. They never showed the wall in any of those shots with Arya (and how could they...the Vale is a LONG way from the wall).

2) It was clear they were going to Bravos. The captain said he was going home, Arya asked where, and said "the free city of Bravos". And that scene also answered my previous question...Jamie said Varys was going to get him to the free city. I wasn't sure what that was. I was thinking Bravos but I wasn't certain, and I couldn't recall if we'd heard that term "free city" before.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> But hadn't Varys already looked in the bathroom and seen what had happened? Wasnt that when he asked Tyrion "What have you done!? "


I know you were probably fooled by the fact that the lock was on the outside of the door, but that was certainly not the poorly designed bathroom.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> No one expects the Stannis Inquisition!
> 
> Shamelessly stolen from elsewhere.


Well, stolen or not, I think you still win this week's award for "best joke not featuring the words 'poorly designed'".


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

smbaker said:


> There's too many things "poorly designed" (the castle gate, the dragon collars, and Tywin's bathroom door)


Don't forget the fact that they prisoners' dungeons appear to have a secret entrance direct into the Tower of the Hand.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

There are more "free cities" than just Braavos, right?

Where is Varys from? I seem to recall another city named Pentos or something like that. I'm assuming they are going to Braavos.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Don't forget the fact that they prisoners' dungeons appear to have a secret entrance direct into the Tower of the Hand.


Terrible design! Terrible, terrible design!


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Anubys said:


> There are more "free cities" than just Braavos, right? Where is Varys from? I seem to recall another city named Pentos or something like that. I'm assuming they are going to Braavos.


Waaaay back in S1E1 Dany and the Beggar King were introduced in "The Free City of Pentos"


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Johncv said:


> Did anyone get a good look at "The Magic Tree", I think I counted eight stone pillars surrounding the tree, assuming one for each Kingdom, if this is true, what is the eighth Kingdom? Or am I reading too much into this?


The different regions you have are:

The North (Winterfell - Stark)
The Riverlands (Riverrun - Tully)
The Westerlands (Casterly Rock - Lannister)
The Stormlands (Storm's End - Baratheon)
The Reach (Highgarden - Tyrell)
The Crownlands (Kings Landing - also Baratheon, I guess)
Dorne (Sunspear - Martell)
The Vale (The Eyrie - Arryn)
The Iron Islands (Pyke - Greyjoy)

Of those, I think the two which are not considered one of the 7 kingdoms are the Iron Islands and the Crownlands, but I'm not positive. Then besides those, the other regions you have are The Gift (part of the North, but I guess given to the Wall to help support them) and whatever you'd call the land north of the wall.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> There are more "free cities" than just Braavos, right?
> 
> Where is Varys from? I seem to recall another city named Pentos or something like that. I'm assuming they are going to Braavos.


The term Free Cities seemed vaguely familiar, but I don't recall what it was used for. But Varys is from Lys, I believe.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Whatever Stannis does, he better do it quickly. As Mance Rayder said, they're not dressed for the weather. Don't want to pull a Napolean or the Nazis getting stuck in Russian winter.


No hurry. Winter has been "coming" for years, and it's still not here yet. Plus they have all of those bodies to burn for warmth, and that nice big raging forest fire Mance started last week.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> How will the Mountain be different? I predict that NOW, he will be REALLY mean!


The movie Pet Semetary came to mind when he said the Mountain would be different.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Tyrion finally has enough? (only thing I didn't like was we needed to see more of Jamie and Varys plotting to get Tyrion out. I would imagine in the book we get the reasons behind it and the plan shaping...assuming it happened that way in the book).


I think it was best to omit those details. Seeing it planned ahead of time would have ruined some of the shock.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

dtle said:


> In King's Landing, it's now Lannister vs Martell, with maybe Dorne being more prominent now that their Prince has been killed. Martell is probably favorite since the severe weakening of Lannister.


1) I'm thinking it's going to be more like Lannister vs Tyrell soon. Obviously Loras' wedding will be off, and likely we'll see Cersei and Margaery butting head soon. Meanwhile, I think the Lannister/Martell thing was more of Oberyn's obsession, and as for Oberyn's death, that was in a battle he volunteered for, so I don't think that will be instigating much.

I think it's clear the Lannister's days are severely numbered now with both Tywin and Tyrion gone. Nobody left really has the sense to run their kingdom. I bet they'll be so busy fighting with the Tyrells they won't even see Stannis coming for them until it's too late.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> 1) I'm not sure what you mean about the CGI. They never showed the wall in any of those shots with Arya (and how could they...the Vale is a LONG way from the wall). 2) It was clear they were going to Bravos. The captain said he was going home, Arya asked where, and said "the free city of Bravos". And that scene also answered my previous question...Jamie said Varys was going to get him to the free city. I wasn't sure what that was. I was thinking Bravos but I wasn't certain, and I couldn't recall if we'd heard that term "free city" before.


Now I'm confused. Arya approached and asked to be taken "north, to the wall," and said she didn't need a cabin. The captain demurred, and said that no, the ship is headed back home to Bravos. That's when she produced the coin, which changed the captain's attitude and mind. The captain made a comment about how she'd get a cabin, and next thing they are sailing. I interpreted all this to mean that she got her way thanks to the coin, and she now has the ship taking her toward the wall, like she wanted.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Interesting the way the whole incest thing went down with Tywin. I was certain he knew all about it and was just trying keep it all buried for the sake of the family legacy. Clearly that wasn't the case. He was truly clueless. Funny that he was so obsessed with the family legacy, he couldn't even see all the pieces falling apart around him. That just somehow seemed uncharacteristic of him. The same with him lecturing Tyrion all those times about bringing a whore to Kings Landing, and then he's apparently hooking up with Shae. 

A very well composed character just seemed to fall apart at the end.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

He was in denial.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

danterner said:


> Now I'm confused. Arya approached and asked to be taken "north, to the wall," and said she didn't need a cabin. The captain demurred, and said that no, the ship is headed back home to Bravos. That's when she produced the coin, which changed the captain's attitude and mind. The captain made a comment about how she'd get a cabin, and next thing they are sailing. I interpreted all this to mean that she got her way thanks to the coin, and she now has the ship taking her toward the wall, like she wanted.


No, she's been talking for a while about wanting to go to Bravos. I think she said it to the mountain when he said maybe he'd go there. Jaqen Hagar (the guy who gave her the coin) was from Bravos. I just went back and checked the wording from S2E10, and he said "If the day comes when you must find me again, just give that coin to any man from Bravos and say these words to him: Valar Morghulis". While he could be at the wall, it seems more likely he's back in Bravos.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> 1) I'm not sure what you mean about the CGI. They never showed the wall in any of those shots with Arya (and how could they...the Vale is a LONG way from the wall).
> 
> 2) It was clear they were going to Bravos. The captain said he was going home, Arya asked where, and said "the free city of Bravos". And that scene also answered my previous question...Jamie said Varys was going to get him to the free city. I wasn't sure what that was. I was thinking Bravos but I wasn't certain, and I couldn't recall if we'd heard that term "free city" before.


Clear from the story, as you note in a later post. But the visuals (CGI, since they didn't actually sail a ship) clearly showed the ship going north along the coast, and not east out into the sea. Ergo, bad "directing," bad CGI, some kind of mistake. Somebody probably just thought it was cool to show the ship sailing along the coast.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I didn't think it was so obvious the ship was traveling north along the coast. It could just as easily have been exiting a bay.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I didn't think it was so obvious the ship was traveling north along the coast. It could just as easily have been exiting a bay.


I agree. They are sailing from the Fingers, after all. It looked like they were leaving an inlet. Who knows which way they would turn once they got to the open sea.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

There's a clue where the boat is docked. You see it when she walks down the steps. Pretty sure The Hound had mentioned the location before.



Spoiler



Saltpans


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I didn't think it was so obvious the ship was traveling north along the coast. It could just as easily have been exiting a bay.


That was my understanding. And in fact, it seems likely to be a bay of some sort. They were sailing fairly close to the land. Ships tend not to do that because of shallow water, underground rocks, curving coastlines, etc. If they were actually heading north, I would think they would be further out in the water.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

danterner said:


> Now I'm confused. Arya approached and asked to be taken "north, to the wall," and said she didn't need a cabin. The captain demurred, and said that no, the ship is headed back home to Bravos. That's when she produced the coin, which changed the captain's attitude and mind. The captain made a comment about how she'd get a cabin, and next thing they are sailing.* I interpreted all this to mean that she got her way thanks to the coin, and she now has the ship taking her toward the wall, like she wanted.*


I think that interpretation is the problem, I took from it that the coin meant that the captain would grant her passage to Braavos with the respect that comes with the coin.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Tywin had 2 arrows in him. One was way below his heart (hurts, but no vital organs) and the second was too high above his heart (shoulder, but no vital organs).
> 
> I'm not convinced he is dead.


If you need more convinving, HBO's official viewers guide lists him as deceased in the family tree.

Also in the family tree, I find it somewhat humorous they the Targaryen family tree actually lists the 3 dragons and Daenerys' children


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

danterner said:


> Now I'm confused. Arya approached and asked to be taken "north, to the wall," and said she didn't need a cabin. The captain demurred, and said that no, the ship is headed back home to Bravos. That's when she produced the coin, which changed the captain's attitude and mind. The captain made a comment about how she'd get a cabin, and next thing they are sailing. I interpreted all this to mean that she got her way thanks to the coin, and she now has the ship taking her toward the wall, like she wanted.


I was similarly confused. Glad it wasn't just me...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> I think that interpretation is the problem, I took from it that the coin meant that the captain would grant her passage to Braavos with the respect that comes with the coin.


I thought the same. She got her way. Why think she just changed her mind after displaying the coin to get her way and was happily on her way to Braavos when she wanted to go north. If she is going to Braavos, another piece of bad directing on the show.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

I thought the whole point of the coin when it was given to Arya was that it would reunite her with Jaqen H'gar, or one of the faceless men in general, not that it would obligate anyone from Braavos to take her wherever she wanted. I thought it was supposed to be clear that she is now on her way to Braavos.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> I thought the same. She got her way. Why think she just changed her mind after displaying the coin to get her way and was happily on her way to Braavos when she wanted to go north. If she is going to Braavos, another piece of bad directing on the show.


I think once she found out the guy was from Braavos it was more like "screw the wall, let's meet up with Jaqen and get some assassin training."


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

stalemate said:


> I think once she found out the guy was from Braavos it was more like "screw the wall, let's meet up with Jaqen and get some assassin training."


BINGO.. she did not have a truly etched in stone destination planned, Braavos has just as much to offer her as the Wall.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

I was trying to find exactly what Jaqen said to her when he gave her the coin but my Google fu is failing me.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The captain of the ship wasn't going to take her anywhere. He told her the ship was going to Braavos and nowhere near the wall. She then showed him the coin and he told her she would have a cabin aboard his ship. He didn't tell her he would take her to the wall. He just told her she could have passage on his ship and his ship was going to Braavos.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

stalemate said:


> I was trying to find exactly what Jaqen said to her when he gave her the coin but my Google fu is failing me.


"If the day comes when you must find me again, give that coin to any many from Braavos and say these words to him, Vaylor Morghules"


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

The ship was very poorly designed. It should have had an LED sign like buses that tells you where it is going. That way it could have changed if the destination changed.

(At no point was there actually any reason to think the ship was going anywhere other than Braavos)


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stalemate said:


> I was trying to find exactly what Jaqen said to her when he gave her the coin but my Google fu is failing me.


Instead of using your Google fu, try using your read-the-whole-thread fu.  I posted it last night (and now kaszeta reposted it)


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Instead of using your Google fu, try using your read-the-whole-thread fu.  I posted it last night (and now kaszeta reposted it)


sorry, iphone posting. I have a hard time keeping up


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stalemate said:


> sorry, iphone posting. I have a hard time keeping up


No worries. Its not your fault the iphone is so poorly designed.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

danterner said:


> Now I'm confused. Arya approached and asked to be taken "north, to the wall," and said she didn't need a cabin. The captain demurred, and said that no, the ship is headed back home to Bravos. That's when she produced the coin, which changed the captain's attitude and mind. The captain made a comment about how she'd get a cabin, and next thing they are sailing. I interpreted all this to mean that she got her way thanks to the coin, and she now has the ship taking her toward the wall, like she wanted.


Regardless, she's going to braavos. Trust us.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

From the GoT wiki:



> Arya rides Brienne's horse to the nearby coast of the Vale, where she sees a wharf with ships docked. She approaches a captain and asks if she can pay for travel to the North, but he says that they won't go there because the North is full of war these days, cold, and pirates. Instead, the ship is going "home": the Free City of Braavos. Arya remembers the special coin that the faceless man known as Jaqen H'ghar gave her, and instructed her to present to any ship captain from Braavos if she needed aid. She does so now, and the captain is utterly surprised at how she obtained it, but she says only "Valar morghulis" (as Jaqen instructed), to which the captain gives the response line "Valar dohaeris". He warmly welcomes her aboard the ship, and insists that she will have her own cabin. As the ship casts off, Arya stands aboard the ship and watches as the shore of Westeros shrinks further and further away. She then moves to the prow of the ship, looking forward in the direction of the Free Cities and Braavos.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Also from HBO's official viewers guide:

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-4/episode-10/people/9/arya-stark

Scroll down and it says "After a failed attempt to reunite with her Aunt Lysa in the Vale, Arya is sailing for Essos"


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

So just a quick question for book readers (and no details please). I know it's been mentioned we've already seen a few things from beyond book 3, but are there any non-trivial topics covered in A Storm of Swords that we haven't seen yet?


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> are there any non-trivial topics covered in A Storm of Swords that we haven't seen yet?


Yes.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

It was totally obvious to me that she was going to Braavos. The captain was from Braavos, and when he recognized the coin (and the "password/countersign") he said "you can have a cabin" --he didn't say "we'll take you wherever you wish my lady".


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> Yes.


I should have clarified...I was thinking of things that we are still likely to see. If it seems most likely the topic will not be addressed you should have answered with a "probably not". Is your answer still yes?

Thanks. Just wondering since the wife has started reading the books, and I was wondering if it was going to spoil much if she gets to book 3 before next season.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Is your answer still yes?


Yes.

Not really a spoiler, just a minor explanation of my answer.


Spoiler



There is an epilogue in book 3 that many of us filthy book readers expected to be the final scene in this most recent finale, but it didn't happen. I do expect it will happen next season.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I should have clarified...I was thinking of things that we are still likely to see. If it seems most likely the topic will not be addressed you should have answered with a "probably not". Is your answer still yes?
> 
> Thanks. Just wondering since the wife has started reading the books, and I was wondering if it was going to spoil much if she gets to book 3 before next season.


Hard to say what changes they'll make, but IMO there's 2 or 3 big things from book 3 not seen yet that we will see next season.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> There are more "free cities" than just Braavos, right?
> 
> Where is Varys from? I seem to recall another city named Pentos or something like that. I'm assuming they are going to Braavos.





heySkippy said:


> Yes.
> 
> Not really a spoiler, just a minor explanation of my answer.
> 
> ...


That's a big one. But GRRM didn't pay off more of it until the end of book 4 so I suspect they are waiting on that.

Also,


Spoiler



Balon Greyjoy hasn't died in the TV series. He was the first of the 3 Leeches killed in the book.



Most of the result of that happened in Book 4 so I expect that's when we will see everything that has happened.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> The movie Pet Semetary came to mind when he said the Mountain would be different.


"Will he be weaker?" 
"No."

I'm thinking that we get a Mountain Frankenstein's Monster. Add in Zombie Vampire and this show will run for 30 years.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Johncv said:


> Look like being "The Hand of the King" is becoming a "dead end position", so who next in line to die or become Hand of the King? Jaime?


More to the point, with no Tywin the entire throne just lost it's muscle. The only one I can think of that could replace Tywin would be Littlefinger.

Also there are two Lannister Kingslayers now with one also being a Papa Handslayer.

Tyrion has no money source now? Ya think that Tyrion the fugitive can hide out _incognito_?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeAndrews said:


> More to the point, with no Tywin the entire throne just lost it's muscle. The only one I can think of that could replace Tywin would be Littlefinger.


Except nobody's afraid of Littlefinger.

And maybe they should be a little afraid, but he's no Tywin Lannister when it comes to commanding the kind of fear that makes people afraid to move against you.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

danterner said:


> Now I'm confused. Arya approached and asked to be taken "north, to the wall," and said she didn't need a cabin. The captain demurred, and said that no, the ship is headed back home to Bravos. That's when she produced the coin, which changed the captain's attitude and mind. The captain made a comment about how she'd get a cabin, and next thing they are sailing. I interpreted all this to mean that she got her way thanks to the coin, and she now has the ship taking her toward the wall, like she wanted.


That was my interpretation as well. If she'd changed her mind and decided to go to Braavos the silver she'd just taken from the Hound should have been sufficient. No need to escalate to the coin and "Valar Morghulis".

Maybe I was wrong (and reading the thread it looks like I was), but it looks to me, at that moment, like she'd gotten her way; not changed her mind on where to go. (But even at the time I realized it was a bit ambiguous)

However I see I'd overlooked exactly what Jaqen had told her to use the coin for.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> That was my interpretation as well. If she'd changed her mind and decided to go to Braavos the silver she'd just taken from the Hound should have been sufficient. No need to escalate to the coin and "Valar Morghulis".


Actually you are wrong. The silver wasn't sufficient. She had apparently already offered the hound's silver (though I don't remember seeing that), because when she pulled out the coin, the captain said something like "MORE silver isn't going to get you on this ship", to which she replied "it's not silver, it's iron". When he said "more silver", I think that indicated she had already offered up the silver she had.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> The captain of the ship wasn't going to take her anywhere. He told her the ship was going to Braavos and nowhere near the wall. She then showed him the coin and he told her she would have a cabin aboard his ship. He didn't tell her he would take her to the wall. He just told her she could have passage on his ship and his ship was going to Braavos.


Your logic works both ways. He suddenly was very gracious. Why not assume she got her way.

Again. Bad direction and bad editing. Unless they intend for is to not know.

And he never said Braavos again. He just said she will have a cabin.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> That's a big one. But GRRM didn't pay off more of it until the end of book 4 so I suspect they are waiting on that. Also, * SPOILER * Most of the result of that happened in Book 4 so I expect that's when we will see everything that has happened.


And there we have it. Someone who interpreted a scene because they read the book.

What you are understanding was NOT clear in the scene. It was ambiguous. Your pre knowledge is making you think it was obvious.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Actually you are wrong. The silver wasn't sufficient. She had apparently already offered the hound's silver (though I don't remember seeing that), because when she pulled out the coin, the captain said something like "MORE silver isn't going to get you on this ship", to which she replied "it's not silver, it's iron". When he said "more silver", I think that indicated she had already offered up the silver she had.


The more silver was to not go north. Not to go to Braavos.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Actually you are wrong. The silver wasn't sufficient. She had apparently already offered the hound's silver (though I don't remember seeing that), because when she pulled out the coin, the captain said something like "MORE silver isn't going to get you on this ship", to which she replied "it's not silver, it's iron". When he said "more silver", I think that indicated she had already offered up the silver she had.


She'd offered up silver to try to get him to take his ship north to the Wall. But she never asked about paying for passage to Braavos instead. 
(Maybe she assumed his "no" was for her sailing at all; _I_ thought it was mostly that he wouldn't change his destination)

If she'd asked about going to Braavos, and then had to pull the coin then it would have been much clearer that she'd changed her destination.

<shrug> But it's not very important; just giving my impression at the time. Mostly I just want the next season to get here quickly!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Your logic works both ways. He suddenly was very gracious. Why not assume she got her way.
> 
> Again. Bad direction and bad editing. Unless they intend for is to not know.
> 
> And he never said Braavos again. He just said she will have a cabin.


And again, the words Jaqen Hagar said to her make it pretty clear, unless you have some reason to believe that Jaqen is for some reason currently at the wall and everyone would know he was there.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

stalemate said:


> I think once she found out the guy was from Braavos it was more like "screw the wall, let's meet up with Jaqen and get some assassin training."


This. Her big dream is to be come a face-changing assassin.



TonyD79 said:


> Your logic works both ways. He suddenly was very gracious. Why not assume she got her way.


I do assume she got her way. But her way is Braavos. She just didn't ask for it first, because she didn't know they were going that way.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

And if it helps anyone more, here was pretty much the entire conversation from when Arya parted with Jaqen:



> A: What are you doing here?
> J: Waiting for you.
> A: How did you know we'd come this way?
> J: After all the things you have seen, this is your question?
> ...


So he said he was going to Bravos, and offered to bring her to Bravos and train her. She said she wanted to but had to find her family. He said that if she ever wanted to find him again, give the coin to any man from Bravos. Now her family is mostly dead, she finds a man from Bravos, and she gives him the coin. Should one guess that

1) she wanted to go to bravos to find jaqen
2) she wants to find jaqen but for some reason thinks he is at the wall despite him saying he was going to bravos
3) she tried to use this special coin to NOT find jaqen...a purpose completely other than what she was instructed to use it for.

I understand that scene was 2 years ago and not fresh in everyone's mind, but I think they've tried to keep it semi-fresh by having her multiple times talk about her dancing master and the faceless assassin from Bravos.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I understand that scene was 2 years ago and not fresh in everyone's mind, but I think they've tried to keep it semi-fresh by having her multiple times talk about her dancing master and the faceless assassin from Bravos.


I think there was also a scene where she says something to the effect of having friends in Braavos or wanting to go there, and the hound replies something about no one having friends there. I can't remember it exactly. I think we were supposed to understand her relationship with Braavos even though the hound had no idea.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

In other news, salt freighters have passenger cabins.

Arya could have been reunited with Jaqen already. How would she know his current face?

Charles Dance did a terrific job as Tywin. I like how his eyes would roll up like he was thinking. He was trying to do one more Jedi desperate mind trick on Tyrion. "I respect how you refuse to die" then "You are my son."


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> And there we have it. Someone who interpreted a scene because they read the book.
> 
> What you are understanding was NOT clear in the scene. It was ambiguous. Your pre knowledge is making you think it was obvious.


It was very clear to me and I have not read the books.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or maybe it will spark a spin-off series.
> 
> The Walking Dead: Westeros


They could combine the two premises, and call it The Walking Dead Poet's Society. The maester said the Mountain would be different, but we don't know how. Maybe all the undead will walk around annoying people with their appreciation of classic Westerosian literature. 



madscientist said:


> I agree. They are sailing from the Fingers, after all. It looked like they were leaving an inlet. Who knows which way they would turn once they got to the open sea.


Yeah. You could see land on both sides of the ship as it was sailing north, so unless Essos is much closer than we realize, they were just sailing out of a bay.



LordKronos said:


> Actually you are wrong. The silver wasn't sufficient. She had apparently already offered the hound's silver (though I don't remember seeing that), because when she pulled out the coin, the captain said something like "MORE silver isn't going to get you on this ship", to which she replied "it's not silver, it's iron". When he said "more silver", I think that indicated she had already offered up the silver she had.


She offered to pay before offering to work on the ship.



TonyD79 said:


> And there we have it. Someone who interpreted a scene because they read the book.
> 
> What you are understanding was NOT clear in the scene. It was ambiguous. Your pre knowledge is making you think it was obvious.


I'm not a book reader, and it was clear to me that she was heading to Braavos. Jaqen gave her the coin to find him, not to get whatever she wanted from people.

Admittedly, the scene taken in isolation does not explicitly say she is going to Braavos. But we know she wanted to go there, and as soon as she found out the captain was from there and heading back there, she offered him the coin that she knew would cause her to be reunited with Jaqen.

I think she only asked to be taken to the Wall because those ships normally sailed up and down the coast for their regular business, and she thought they would end up going there at some point in the near future. I highly doubt that even with her money, she would try getting a ship to go somewhere just for her.

Her goal wasn't to book a private trip, but simply to get passage on board a ship to where it was already going.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> In other news, salt freighters have passenger cabins.


The captain gave her his cabin. He said something to the effect of "You shall have my cabin."


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

To the poster who got exasperated with me for mentioning over and over that Arya will eventually head to Braavos using the coin: I told you so! 

I love the fact that Tyrion and Varys are going to be a team. I'm sure Varys has money stashed away everywhere and I hope the bags he gave Tyrion contained some diamonds instead of only food and water for the journey.

And I keep forgetting to mention how much I love that wildling guy who was bragging that he fraked a bear! That he told that story so many times that Ygrit was sick of hearing it


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> And again, the words Jaqen Hagar said to her make it pretty clear, unless you have some reason to believe that Jaqen is for some reason currently at the wall and everyone would know he was there.


Oh. Forgive the lowly tv watcher who does mo keep notes on exact words from years ago.

Again. Bad writing. Bad direction.

I love this show but they make a lot of assumptions that people know stuff. And too often they write to book readers.

That is my only point. It was not obvious where she was going.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

It doesn't need to be obvious right now. It only needs to be a bread crumb for whenever it becomes relevant.

Besides - if you watched the "Previously..." part - they pretty much telegraphed it.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> Oh. Forgive the lowly tv watcher who does mo keep notes on exact words from years ago.
> 
> Again. Bad writing. Bad direction.
> 
> ...


There's nothing wrong with not remembering what the coin was for. But just because you didn't remember doesn't make that scene badly written.

Even ignoring knowing what the coin was for, do you really think Arya thought she could get the ship to go somewhere just for her? And that she would think scrubbing the floors would be a valid form of payment for that?

The scene made it clear that Arya simply wanted passage on board the ship to where it was already going. It also made it clear that the ship was going to Braavos. Thus, it is not much of a stretch to think that she is now on her way to Braavos.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Oh. Forgive the lowly tv watcher who does mo keep notes on exact words from years ago.
> 
> Again. Bad writing. Bad direction.
> 
> ...


Did it shock you this episode when it was mentioned that Ned was Jon's dad?  just kidding.

I don't keep notes. I just remember what happened. It was made out to be a pretty important point, and Bravos has been repeatedly discussed by her. And it seems to have stuck with most people I've talked to because for the last 2 years the topic has repeatedly come up in discussion about how Arya's eventually going to end up in Bravos. I'd venture to guess that most people, when they heard the guy say he was from Bravos, expected Arya to whip out that coin before she even reached for it.

And if you find you can't remember this sort of stuff, then that's what the "previously" clips are intended for. I usually skip them because they make it obvious whats about to happen in the episode, but if you find yourself getting confused, then maybe they'd help.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

My CRS is especially bad with TV shows, and maybe even worse with this one, probably because of its length and all that's happened. But it did seem that Arya perked up when the captain mentioned Bravos.

"I'll scrub the deck! I'll even lick your boots!! No, then how about I give you this iron coin?"


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> Oh. Forgive the lowly tv watcher who does mo keep notes on exact words from years ago.
> 
> Again. Bad writing. Bad direction.
> 
> ...


Are you seriously complaining that this show is not spoon feeding you information despite the fact that it was in the recap (which annoyed me, because it was a huge spoiler as to what Arya would finally do.) I can't believe this is even an ongoing discussion past the point that you made a dumb brainfart while initially watching. I don't complain that sometimes I need to read a recap after the show is over to realize who that obscure actor was we haven't seen for two seasons, and I wish I could remember everything 100% all the time, but this is life and reality. They're not going to stick a flashback into that scene just for your benefit or have her look at the camera and explain it to you.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm with LordKronos, as soon as the captain said "We're from Braavos" I knew what Arya was going to do. 
One of the things I like about GoT is that they don't explain every little detail, they expect the viewer to be able to "fill in the gaps". I'll admit this was tough during the first season (but a rewatch helped a lot), but once I got the "big picture" most of the time I understand what's going on (with only the occasional "who's that guy?")
I don't read the books (and I won't until the HBO series ends), but I will look at some of the supplemental material (like the interactive map).


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> I can't believe this is even an ongoing discussion past the point that you made a dumb brainfart while initially watching.


I think maybe I can reword his post in a manner which would have it all make more sense:



> Oh. Forgive the lowly tv watcher who does mo keep notes on exact words from years ago.
> 
> Again. Bad writing. Bad direction.
> 
> ...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

allan said:


> My CRS is especially bad with TV shows


Catholic Relief Services? Congressional Research Service? Coordinate Reference System? Cold Rolled Steel?

Sorry, wikipedia just isn't helping me with this one. Wait....Colorectal surgery? Are you having trouble sitting through the show?


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Catholic Relief Services? Congressional Research Service? Coordinate Reference System? Cold Rolled Steel?
> 
> Sorry, wikipedia just isn't helping me with this one. Wait....Colorectal surgery? Are you having trouble sitting through the show?


LOL! Can't Remember Stuff [0]

[0] approximate translation


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

I have a lousy memory, and even I remembered the damn coin.

It's always been my expectation that Arya would eventually use that coin and be reunited with <faceless man whose name I could not hope to spell> to be trained in the fine art of assassination. It annoyed me when she didn't do this to start with. I'm glad it finally happened. I just hope she makes it there without getting lost at sea repeatedly over the next 3 seasons.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

If Jaqen is REALLY so good, how did he get captured and had to have a little girl save him?


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> If Jaqen is REALLY so good, how did he get captured and had to have a little girl save him?


Yeah, I said that. He could have changed his face to look like one of the guards and yelled, "Get me out of here!" They never saw X-Men or Terminator?
How did he get captured to be sent the wall in the first place?


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Who said he was captured? Maybe he wanted to be in there to meet Arya.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Who said he was captured? Maybe he wanted to be in there to meet Arya.


There's no way you could know that without reading.

Literacy.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

^^ Lol


----------



## rjay717 (Nov 18, 2005)

MonsterJoe said:


> There's no way you could know that without reading.
> 
> Literacy.


He was just making a guess. The reason he was there was never explained in the books.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I didn't think it was so obvious the ship was traveling north along the coast. It could just as easily have been exiting a bay.


Not even "just as easily." It was definitely exiting a bay. Immediately after Arya's conversation with the captain, the ship is shown sailing with land on either side of it, the land on the far side appearing to be a peninsula. We then see the scene of Arya on the ship, but all the angles from that point on are such that you can't see the land on the far side.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Who said he was captured? Maybe he wanted to be in there to meet Arya.


Yeah, I thought the way he sat quietly in that cage with those lunatics--why didn't they bite him or kill him? --gave the impression that he could get out any time he felt like it. The whole asking Arya to let them out in the midst of the battle was a test for her. Of course, I didn't think any of this until later when he started killing people. 

The trouble with a faceless man is that we may never see the first actor again. 

How anyone can face a whole year before getting more GoT and not start reading the books is a mystery to me.


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> Not even "just as easily." It was definitely exiting a bay. Immediately after Arya's conversation with the captain, the ship is shown sailing with land on either side of it, the land on the far side appearing to be a peninsula. We then see the scene of Arya on the ship, but all the angles from that point on are such that you can't see the land on the far side.


One could presume she was leaving from a town near the entrance to the Eyrie. If it were Maidenpool or Saltpans, heading east there would be land on either side as they head out of the bay that the Trident empties into (Bay of Crabs). If it were Gulltown she'd actually be heading south before heading east to get out of the bay.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

As I was watching this, I'm thinking, wow the Narrow Sea is really narrow!


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Oh. Forgive the lowly tv watcher who does mo keep notes on exact words from years ago. Again. Bad writing. Bad direction. I love this show but they make a lot of assumptions that people know stuff. And too often they write to book readers. That is my only point. It was not obvious where she was going.


Alternate explanation - Great writing, great direction, but bad attention span on your part.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

audioscience said:


> One could presume she was leaving from a town near the entrance to the Eyrie. If it were Maidenpool or Saltpans, heading east there would be land on either side as they head out of the bay that the Trident empties into (Bay of Crabs). If it were Gulltown she'd actually be heading south before heading east to get out of the bay.


Based on the direction of the sun, the ship was heading easterly.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

What amazes me is that we've had several pages of discussion about which direction the ship sailed, and john4200 has not been part of it...


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> Based on the direction of the sun, the ship was heading easterly.


Yeahbut, based on the typical prevailing winds and the way to sails filled....


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

audioscience said:


> One could presume she was leaving from a town near the entrance to the Eyrie. If it were Maidenpool or Saltpans, heading east there would be land on either side as they head out of the bay that the Trident empties into (Bay of Crabs). If it were Gulltown she'd actually be heading south before heading east to get out of the bay.


She was leaving from Saltpans. That's why the people on the dock were shoveling salt...

She and the Hound were at the Bloody Gate when they talked to the guards. You can see how far that is from The Eyrie, itself.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Too bad for Jojen that the cave of the three eyed raven had tighter security than Heathrow Airport post 9/11!


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> She and the Hound were at the Bloody Gate when they talked to the guards. You can see how far that is from The Eyrie, itself.


There is no scale, so I can't tell anything from that poorly designed map.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

The ship would have had to have been due south of Gulltown in the final scene, based on the peninsula on the starboard side of the ship, and that map.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Just listened to the Grantland Hollywood Prospectus podcast, and the two hosts had the same argument about whether Arya was sailing to The Wall or to Braavos. But then they brought their resident expert on near the end of the podcast to discuss a few things and he confirmed that she was indeed sailing to Braavos.

As for the scale of that map and how far the Bloody Gate is from the Eyrie, this is how it was depicted in episode S04E05 (That's Littlefinger and Sansa walking through the gate a the bottom of the picture):


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

In S01E05, they pretty much made it right up to the Eyrie before encountering anyone, so either the writers just forgot about the Bloody Gate or the gate was just left open

Also, it seems they changed the CGI model. I actually kind of liked the original design better


----------



## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

smbaker said:


> I have a lousy memory, and even I remembered the damn coin.
> 
> It's always been my expectation that Arya would eventually use that coin and be reunited with <faceless man whose name I could not hope to spell> to be trained in the fine art of assassination. It annoyed me when she didn't do this to start with. I'm glad it finally happened. I just hope she makes it there without getting lost at sea repeatedly over the next 3 seasons.


Yeah I knew she was headed to Braavos via the coin eventually, I just thought it would be after she either found Sansa/Jon/Bran. Now that Brienne knows she is alive she can give word of it to Sansa while Arya trains as an assassin. It'd be a good plotline if in some future season Arya comes back in another face back to her family perhaps as some guardian angel assassin type.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Johncv said:


> http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones


The word is that the last episode set a new record for torrenting.
That means the download hasta be fast!


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

That is a really old comic.

BTW, Seasons 1, 2, and 3 are available on Blu-ray and DVD. It will be a while before season 4 is out on disc.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Johncv said:


> http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones


From the comic: "C**tHammer"? I know the hound doesn't believe in naming swords, but that should totally be the new name for his right foot.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> In S01E05, they pretty much made it right up to the Eyrie before encountering anyone, so either the writers just forgot about the Bloody Gate or the gate was just left open


Maybe during "peacetime" the Bloody Gate isn't closed



LordKronos said:


> Also, it seems they changed the CGI model.


Hmm . . . .I wonder if that is why "The Aerie" has vanished from the opening credits.


LordKronos said:


> I actually kind of liked the original design better


The new design "meshes" better with the Throne Room/Moon Door design, IMHO


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Johncv said:


> http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones


Reality hurts.  

Once you actually get to the base of the cliff of the Eyrie, it still takes a couple of days to get up it (per the books). The people hanging out at the Bloody Gate are never in the Eyrie. They couldn't get there before their next shift.


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

I have one question: in 2 parts. Who built the Wall, and how did they do it?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tiassa said:


> The new design "meshes" better with the Throne Room/Moon Door design, IMHO


100% agree, but I still like the old look. But it's almost like the person responsible for set design there hadn't read further than that chapter/book he/she was working on, since both the gate and the moon door seem like they were forgotten there.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I have one question: in 2 parts. Who built the Wall, and how did they do it?


The Night's Watch built it. There are three groups in the Watch: Rangers, Stewards and Builders. The Builders build the wall. They would have ice hauled to the wall and add to it. But the Watch has such few numbers now, they can't add to the wall anymore. The Builders can only try and maintain it.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I have one question: in 2 parts. Who built the Wall, and how did they do it?


That has not been covered in the show as far as I recall. You can read some of the history on the below link for the wiki entry about the wall.

WARNING: The below link does contain some spoilers, but if you start at the top and stop before the section titled Recent Events, you should be safe. I read no further than that, but what I did read didn't seem like any sort of spoiler to me. And of course, click on links only at your own risk. I'm sure spoilers abound behind those links.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wall


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> The Night's Watch built it. There are three groups in the Watch: Rangers, Stewards and Builders. The Builders build the wall. They would have ice hauled to the wall and add to it. But the Watch has such few numbers now, they can't add to the wall anymore. The Builders can only try and maintain it.


There is supposedly a magical enchantment to the wall as well.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> There is supposedly a magical enchantment to the wall as well.


To quote GRRM, "more than ice went into the raising of the Wall"


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

It's the same type of enchanment as the entrance to where The Children are. There hasn't been much explaination of it though.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I have one question: in 2 parts. Who built the Wall, and how did they do it?


From the GoT wiki...

About eight thousand years ago, both races came under attack from the White Walkers, a mysterious race of ice and cold from the uttermost north. In the War for the Dawn, the First Men and the Children unified to throw back the invasion. With the aid of giants and the Children, Bran the Builder built the Wall and would then build Winterfell and rule as the first King in the North. The First Men subsequently founded the Night's Watch to guard the Wall should the White Walkers ever return. After this war the Children began dwindling in numbers, with the last of them disappearing around the time that the Andals invaded Westeros, two millennia after the War for the Dawn according to tradition.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> There is supposedly a magical enchantment to the wall as well.





BeanMeScot said:


> It's the same type of enchanment as the entrance to where The Children are. There hasn't been much explaination of it though.


There has to be some magic to it because people who die south of the Wall don't come back to life.

Left unexplained is how people who die AT the Wall (e.g. at Castle Black) also come back from the dead.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> If you need more convinving, HBO's official viewers guide lists him as deceased in the family tree.
> 
> Also in the family tree, I find it somewhat humorous they the Targaryen family tree actually lists the 3 dragons and Daenerys' children


Darn it...can I hang on to the hope that the Hound can somehow survive or is he listed as deceased as well?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> There has to be some magic to it because people who die south of the Wall don't come back to life.
> 
> Left unexplained is how people who die AT the Wall (e.g. at Castle Black) also come back from the dead.


Maybe it has nothing to do with the Wall, but rather where winter has come..?


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Facebook Recap: http://happyplace.someecards.com/go...ace-entirely-on-facebook-the-season-4-finale/


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Maybe it has nothing to do with the Wall, but rather where winter has come..?


The White Walkers are apparently dormant during the summer and only become active during a long winter. They must be heading for a long winter as it has been long enough since White Walkers were known that people think they are fairy tales. The White Walkers must be able to go south during a long winter, otherwise their march would be pretty pointless. The Wall is to stop them from going south.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Darn it...can I hang on to the hope that the Hound can somehow survive or is he listed as deceased as well?


You know, I thought that same thing about the hound...surely hes dead, but lets make sure. Unfortunately, the deceased status only seems to appear in the family tree, and the Hound is no longer listed under any of the families. Under his personal bio, it only says "Arya left him alone to die". I can't imagine he lives with those injuries (looks like his leg was punctured, Brienne bit off his ??ear??, and the cuts on his hands where he grabbed the sword, not to mention his infected ibite from before), but the wording there leaves a little wiggle room


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> There has to be some magic to it because people who die south of the Wall don't come back to life.
> 
> Left unexplained is how people who die AT the Wall (e.g. at Castle Black) also come back from the dead.


Who died at the wall and came back? The only thing I remember is the body that ghost found north of the wall, they brought it back, and it came back to life in castle black


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I have to pat my own back since no one will do it for me...quote from me 2 episodes ago

_*I don't think GRRM would kill off Tyrion. I'm starting to figure out the pattern now and Tyrion is just the kind of character that GRRM would keep. He would keep him miserable and fighting against the odds. The ones that are full of themselves and have everything are the ones that die...that includes Robb as well as Jofferey. So I'm betting that Tyrion will escape somehow and embark on a journey full of despair and misfortune (see: Arya) *_

I'd say running away after killing his father and leaving Cersei in charge...trapped in a box on a ship is the start of a wonderfully miserable journey!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Who died at the wall and came back? The only thing I remember is the body that ghost found north of the wall, they brought it back, and it came back to life in castle black


Wasn't Mormont attacked inside Castle Black and saved by Jon Snow?

Those rangers may have died north of the Wall, though...but it certainly seems like they had to burn all the people who died during the last fight at Castle Black (which is south of the Wall)


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Those rangers may have died north of the Wall, though...but it certainly seems like they had to burn all the people who died during the last fight at Castle Black (which is south of the Wall)


I suspect their logic was similar to this"


Ellen Ripley said:


> I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> In S01E05, they pretty much made it right up to the Eyrie before encountering anyone, so either the writers just forgot about the Bloody Gate or the gate was just left open


Maybe Catelyn Stark being waved in by the guards at the Bloody Gate wasn't TV-worthy?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

As I do every season, I have put together a Word file that contains recaps of every episode (3 recaps per episode) in addition to interviews and other stuff about the latest GoT season.

It is a 13 MB file. 229 pages. It contains spoilers about the season, obviously.

If you want it, PM me your e-mail address.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> The White Walkers are apparently dormant during the summer and only become active during a long winter. They must be heading for a long winter as it has been long enough since White Walkers were known that people think they are fairy tales. The White Walkers must be able to go south during a long winter, otherwise their march would be pretty pointless. The Wall is to stop them from going south.


Yes, but it obviously doesn't stop people from resurrecting south of the Wall. Which is the question that was asked and that I was proposing a possible answer to...


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> As I do every season, I have put together a Word file that contains recaps of every episode (3 recaps per episode) in addition to interviews and other stuff about the latest GoT season.
> 
> It is a 13 MB file. 229 pages. It contains spoilers about the season, obviously.
> 
> If you want it, PM me your e-mail address.


Can you upload it to Dropbox and put a link here?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Can you upload it to Dropbox and put a link here?


I don't know how to do that


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

If you have a Dropbox account, just drop the file in your Dropbox folder, right click on it and click "share Dropbox link"


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Anubis...mail it to me and I'll link it. You have my email?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Anubis...mail it to me and I'll link it. You have my email?


Anubis might, but does Anubys?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Anubis...mail it to me and I'll link it. You have my email?


I'll do that...thank you...I'll have to mail it to you in the morning as I can't seem to access my work servers at the moment...

it's weird...I could have sworn I had your e-mail address...but I don't have it...very strange...can you PM it to me?


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

If the Wall is impassable by White Walkers, what's everybody so worried about? Just let the free folk through the wall. The North is very very big. Roose Bolton said so.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The problem is the free folk kneel to no one. They don't like to be ruled. If you want to live in the North, you have to be ruled by someone.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Sure, I get that.

But if the White Walkers can't cross the wall, you could just cede the lands North of the wall and let them party all winter. Why bother fighting them?


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

MacThor said:


> If the Wall is impassable by White Walkers, what's everybody so worried about? Just let the free folk through the wall. The North is very very big. Roose Bolton said so.


or, just seal the tunnel and leave them to be white walker food.

At the start of the series, it seemed most folks didn't even believe the white walkers existed. The purpose of the wall appeared to be to keep the wildlings out.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MacThor said:


> But if the White Walkers can't cross the wall, you could just cede the lands North of the wall and let them party all winter. Why bother fighting them?


What if they tear down the Wall?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Maybe they have a plan for all those babies. Some way to let them get past the wall?


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Kill them with cuteness.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What if they tear down the Wall?


Gorbachev is a White Walker.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Maybe they have a plan for all those babies. Some way to let them get past the wall?


They're the anti-Children.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Brienne never gave Arya the direwolf bread from Hot Pie! She's an Oathbreaker!


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Hot Pie is a GUY's name? How confusing.


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Hot Pie is a GUY's name? How confusing.


Hot Mess is his sister.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

has this been posted yet?

GoT on Facebook

I e-mailed the recap file to David...so he's the slacker for not posting it on dropbox!


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I got it! Stupid thing called work. 

Linky


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I got it! Stupid thing called work.
> 
> Linky


Thanks for doing that...

even if you took your sweet time with it!


----------



## Howie (May 3, 2004)

Crap, I finally catch up with the episodes and I'm 300 posts behind on the finale thread.


----------



## rjay717 (Nov 18, 2005)

Howie said:


> Crap, I finally catch up with the episodes and I'm 300 posts behind on the finale thread.


150 of them are about which direction the ship sails.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

rjay717 said:


> 150 of them are about which direction the ship sails.


And another 75 making fun of last week's thread (though totally worth reading)


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> Jamie told him, "Tap twice, then twice again on the door at the top of the stairs," which is the one that was being watched by Varys.


(Tap, tap, tap)

Lord Varys?

(Tap, tap, tap)

Lord Varys?

(Tap, tap, tap)

Lord Varys?


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

JYoung said:


> (Tap, tap, tap)
> 
> Lord Varys?


shave-anna-haircut
twobits


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> shave-anna-haircut
> twobits


Wrong reference.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

On the other Hand, Tyrion got across a couple of points to Father 
_(CC SA) +Mike Andrews ﻿_
_(The Muse struck me last night.)_


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Just wanted to share, for anyone here that doesn't read the companion thread (Game of Thrones TV Show vs Books thread, only up to current episode), in there gossamer88 pointed to some youtube videos from Comic Book Girl 19. She has a couple of different sets of GoT videos. 

One set is the Epic History series, which is about the 12000 year history of Westeros and the different families. Each video is about 15-30 minutes and covers a specific family (Lannister, Stark, Targaryen, and coming soon is Baratheon). These videos provide tons of book backstory that has been cut from the show, and is very enlightening to understand the personalities and motivations of several of the characters.

There is another set which covers each episode of season 4. I've watch the videos for the first 3 episodes, which didn't really add a whole lot, and also for episode 10, which actually added a few book details that were cut but which explained a few of the scenes better.

There are also a few other misc videos (pre-season recaps, favorite moments, etc) which didn't seem all that useful.

I'd highly recommend the Epic History videos if you want to know more about these families. She does a really good job not to spoil anything that hasn't already been on the show. However, it's possible that some of this backstory could eventually make it into the show in a future season. For example, this season we did learn a bit more about why Jamie killed King Aerys and earned his nickname. I think her videos discussed this even before this season began, so that technically was a spoiler a the time.

Another thing semi-spoilerish is discussion over Jon Snows mother...it's not truly a spoiler, because it actually hasn't been covered in any of the books published yet, so it's really just a fan theory based on various historical details from the book that have mostly been left out of the show so far. I'll also point out that the same theory has been posted in one of the previous threads here.

Also, when she talks about a few differences between the show and the book, you might be able to infer from it something that will or wont happen in the future, though since the show has already changed it, the other part may just as well change.

Finally, I will also warn that these videos are NSFW. There's no nudity (she blurs out those scenes) but she does drop the f-bomb (and a few other choice words) left-and-right.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Just wanted to share, for anyone here that doesn't read the companion thread (Game of Thrones TV Show vs Books thread, only up to current episode), in there gossamer88 pointed to some youtube videos from Comic Book Girl 19. She has a couple of different sets of GoT videos.


Beg pardon, but if I wanted to know about videos based on the books, wouldn't I be reading the book threads?

This thread is for TV only. Some of us are avoiding book threads not because of future TV spoilers but because we may want to read the books someday.

Your post was "safe" but I thought it still inappropriate because it blurs the lines between book and non-book threads. That battle was fought hard and there are TWO book-related threads for the show because of it.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Thanks LordKronos, those sounds interesting, I am going to check them out.


----------



## rjay717 (Nov 18, 2005)

Thanks for the heads up, my LordKronos.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Beg pardon, but if I wanted to know about videos based on the books, wouldn't I be reading the book threads?
> 
> This thread is for TV only. Some of us are avoiding book threads not because of future TV spoilers but because we may want to read the books someday.
> 
> Your post was "safe" but I thought it still inappropriate because it blurs the lines between book and non-book threads. That battle was fought hard and there are TWO book-related threads for the show because of it.


Wrong side of the bed this morning?

No, you wouldn't necessarily be over there. There were people in this thread (or maybe it was one of the previous few threads) who said they would like to go read that thread but probably wouldn't because a thread that explicitly invites talking about the book is too at risk of somebody posting an out of line comment that spoils something major.

And you probably shouldn't bother with the books. If you can't remember major details from 2 seasons ago with constant reminders (including this episode's "previously on"), good luck remembering what you read 4000 pages ago. You'll probably just walk away thinking they were some poorly written, poorly edited books.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Thanks for the youtube stuff. I'll probably never read the books but would love the backstory.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Wrong side of the bed this morning? No, you wouldn't necessarily be over there. There were people in this thread (or maybe it was one of the previous few threads) who said they would like to go read that thread but probably wouldn't because a thread that explicitly invites talking about the book is too at risk of somebody posting an out of line comment that spoils something major. And you probably shouldn't bother with the books. If you can't remember major details from 2 seasons ago with constant reminders (including this episode's "previously on"), good luck remembering what you read 4000 pages ago. You'll probably just walk away thinking they were some poorly written, poorly edited books.


 I was trying to be nice. I wasn't hating on your post. Too bad you couldn't return the manners. And thanks again for trashing me because I forget a DETAIL. wow. What a jerk.
Especially from a guy who brings book talk into a non book thread.


----------



## rjay717 (Nov 18, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> I was trying to be nice. I wasn't hating on your post. Too bad you couldn't return the manners. And thanks again for trashing me because I forget a DETAIL. wow. What a jerk.
> Especially from a guy who brings book talk into a non book thread.


I have no idea if there's a history between you two. I have no desire to tick you off or be confrontational, that's not my intent. You stated you were trying to be nice and that prompted me to reply back in order to help you. This is my take: It came across as cranky to me, so I understood why he pushed back. Obviously I interpreted it incorrectly based on your comments above.

My apologies if my comments are out of line.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> I was trying to be nice.


Well, I guess some people's idea of "nice" is nicer than others'.



> And thanks again for trashing me because I forget a DETAIL.


Yes, you did forget a detail, which is no big sin. But then it was pointed out to you that your forgot about it. And then it was also pointed out to you that we've been reminded over and over again about that detail, including earlier this season. And even then, instead of saying "oh yeah, my bad, guess I had a brain fart", you STILL insisted it was bad writing.

That's why I gave you a ribbing on that. But cheer up. It could have been worse. It's not like you said the wall was poorly designed.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> Fire can hurt Jon Snow. He burned himself protecting Mormont from the wight.
> 
> Not all Targaryens are impervious to fire, though.


Even if Snow is a Targaryen, he wouldn't be a full-blooded one, since in that scenario his mother would have been a Stark.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

danterner said:


> Now I'm confused. Arya approached and asked to be taken "north, to the wall," and said she didn't need a cabin. The captain demurred, and said that no, the ship is headed back home to Bravos. That's when she produced the coin, which changed the captain's attitude and mind. The captain made a comment about how she'd get a cabin, and next thing they are sailing. I interpreted all this to mean that she got her way thanks to the coin, and she now has the ship taking her toward the wall, like she wanted.





LordKronos said:


> No, she's been talking for a while about wanting to go to Bravos. I think she said it to the mountain when he said maybe he'd go there. Jaqen Hagar (the guy who gave her the coin) was from Bravos. I just went back and checked the wording from S2E10, and he said "If the day comes when you must find me again, just give that coin to any man from Bravos and say these words to him: Valar Morghulis". While he could be at the wall, it seems more likely he's back in Bravos.


Arya's initial thought was to go to the Wall, which is where her only surviving relative is (that she knows of). Once the captain says no, he's headed to Braavos, she remembers the words of Jaqen H'ghar, and produces the Braavosi coin to the captain, and tells him what Jaqen told her to say.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Even if Snow is a Targaryen, he wouldn't be a full-blooded one, since in that scenario his mother would have been a Stark.


So? They married Tyrion to Sansa in order to continue the Lannisters and ultimately get Winterfell.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> So? They married Tyrion to Sansa in order to continue the Lannisters and ultimately get Winterfell.


I think you lost the context of that post. The question was, since Targaryens (at least some of them) are impervious to fire, is Jon Snow impervious to fire? That may tell us whether or not he is a Targaryen. But as DreadPirateRob pointed out, he'd only be half Targaryen, so maybe he wouldn't have the fire immunity anyway (that might just be a result of their inbreeding).

Now, if her WERE immune to fire, that would have answered the question, but we already know he's not immune to it. So either he's not a Targaryen, or he didn't get the immunity because he's only half from their bloodline.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Ooops, sorry.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> I think you lost the context of that post. The question was, since Targaryens (at least some of them) are impervious to fire, is Jon Snow impervious to fire? That may tell us whether or not he is a Targaryen. But as DreadPirateRob pointed out, he'd only be half Targaryen, so maybe he wouldn't have the fire immunity anyway (that might just be a result of their inbreeding).
> 
> Now, if her WERE immune to fire, that would have answered the question, but we already know he's not immune to it. So either he's not a Targaryen, or he didn't get the immunity because he's only half from their bloodline.


Viscerys was not immune to fire, and he's full Targaryen.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I think a lot of the things going on have to do with the fact that they are about to have a long Winter. One like they haven't had in centuries. White Walkers used to exist. They haven't been seen in hundreds of years so people think they were fairy tales. Same with Wights. Dragons died out 100 years ago so people don't believe they can exist now. They know they used to exist but only because the skulls have been recently on display in King's Landing. Just when Winter is about to come, the first dragons are born in over 100 years. There is no mention of anyone, even of the Targaryen line being impervious to fire, but one is born just when they are about to have a big Winter. In other words, a lot of magical things left their world at the end of the last big Winter and now they are all coming back because they are about to have another big Winter. And many of them exist to destroy the others. Like I think the original reason for Dragons was to keep the White Walkers at bay.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

For dragon's what?


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

The purpose of the dragons existence was to keep white walkers at bay.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> Viscerys was not immune to fire, and he's full Targaryen.


Right!

I think when I first made the remark (at least I hope I did, I don't really recall), I wanted to see if Jon was "dragon" like Danny said about her brother. She said her brother was no dragan (but she was) because he could burn but she could not.

I'm sure he's half targaryian. But is he dragon?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> For dragon's what?





DavidTigerFan said:


> The purpose of the dragons existence was to keep white walkers at bay.


This. They were corrupted for use to take over the throne but they came to be because fire destroys White Walkers. Just like the Night's Watch's true purpose is to stop the White Walkers from crossing to the South but they have forgotten that. Now they seem to think their purpose is to stop Wildings from going South.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Love It!

Ok I can figure out the YT tag thing.

It is the opening credits for Game of Thrones... 80's style!


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> For dragon's what?


For dragon's fire to roast peasants who insist on proper punctuation.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Love It!
> 
> Ok I can figure out the YT tag thing.
> 
> It is the opening credits for Game of Thrones... 80's style!


Ha! That is EXACTLY what it would have been like back then! They hit the nail square on the head.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Love It!
> 
> Ok I can figure out the YT tag thing.
> 
> It is the opening credits for Game of Thrones... 80's style!


YT tag thing.

When you press the You Tube Button, what you enter in the popup is the description of the video. The text entry box will now show
open bracket YT="What you typed in the You Tube box" close bracket
open bracket /YT close bracket.
Between the close bracket and the open bracket you paste in the part of the You Tube link that comes after v=
That's it. So the end result should look like this.






If you quote this message, you should be able to see how the actual line looks.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I thought the one Will Wheaton did in the Brady Bunch style was better.

http://time.com/2900787/game-of-thrones-the-brady-bunch-remix/






Edited to add: some lyrics are probably not safe for work. No image issues, though.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> This. They were corrupted for use to take over the throne but they came to be because fire destroys White Walkers. Just like the Night's Watch's true purpose is to stop the White Walkers from crossing to the South but they have forgotten that. Now they seem to think their purpose is to stop Wildings from going South.


zoom?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> zoom?


More like


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)




----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Also a great interview with Joffrey






It's long but has some awesome questions. It makes you not hate him so much. Was filmed when he spoke a university in Dublin. Worth watching if you have the time/interest.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Thanks!



Azlen said:


> YT tag thing.
> 
> When you press the You Tube Button, what you enter in the popup is the description of the video. The text entry box will now show
> open bracket YT="What you typed in the You Tube box" close bracket
> ...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Viscerys was not immune to fire, and he's full Targaryen.


Gee, I guess I should have included some sort of disclaimer, like maybe "(at least some of them)". Oh wait, I did.

The point was, the series of posts was aimed at discussing the topic of immunity to fire, and DavidTigerFan accidentally changed the subject of said discussion to inheritance rights.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Gee, I guess I should have included some sort of disclaimer, like maybe "(at least some of them)". Oh wait, I did.
> 
> The point was, the series of posts was aimed at discussing the topic of immunity to fire, and DavidTigerFan accidentally changed the subject of said discussion to inheritance rights.


Sure, but the logic of using immunity to fire to determine Jon Snows heritage is flawed. His lack of immunity to fire tells us nothing since the vast majority of Targaryens (indeed, all but one that we know of) were not immune to fire.

So the caveat about only being half-Targaryen seemed to be a way of hedging the bet, but it's not really important, since none of the other Targaryens that we know of, other than Danaerys, have demonstrated this ability. That's all I was trying to say. Jon Snow burning himself tells us no more than Viscerys burning himself.

Danaerys was born on the slopes of Dragonstone as the Targaryens were fleeing. This, in my mind, is difficult to differentiate between the other major fantasy series that preceded "Song of Ice and Fire", "The Wheel of Time", where Rand Al'Thor was born on the slopes of Dragonmount, and eventually became "The Dragon Reborn", the hero of the entire series. I haven't been able to decide if this is George RR Martin paying tribute to Robert Jordan, a total coincidence, a trope he's exploiting, or what. The similarity is so strong I find it difficult to believe it's accidental.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Beg pardon, but if I wanted to know about videos based on the books, wouldn't I be reading the book threads?
> 
> This thread is for TV only. Some of us are avoiding book threads not because of future TV spoilers but because we may want to read the books someday.
> 
> Your post was "safe" but I thought it still inappropriate because it blurs the lines between book and non-book threads. That battle was fought hard and there are TWO book-related threads for the show because of it.


I would not worry or care too much about anything from the books because the producers and writers of the show have already stated the books that come after "Song of Ice and Fire" are not going to be use except for few items. So producers and writers of the show are going write their own version of GoT using the established characters already in the show. Now HBO could use the other books and do another GoT show but it would use new characters and take place on the Iron Islands.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Johncv said:


> I would not worry or care too much about anything from the books because the producers and writers of the show have already stated the books that come after "Song of Ice and Fire" are not going to be use except for few items


This makes no sense. Books after "Song of Ice and Fire"? You mean some sort of epilogue or coda? Martin has not said anything about that as far as I know.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

betts4 said:


> Also a great interview with Joffrey YouTube Link: jack gleason It's long but has some awesome questions. It makes you not hate him so much. Was filmed when he spoke a university in Dublin. Worth watching if you have the time/interest.


Thanks for posting that Betts! He seems like quite a nice guy.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

So will next season finally be the last. The little boy Stark worgs into the disobedient black dragon and flames all the white walker babies and mankind is saved. Whee. 

And Ayra is sailing to the wall. That was pretty clear.


----------



## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> So will next season finally be the last. The little boy Stark worgs into the disobedient black dragon and flames all the white walker babies and mankind is saved. Whee.
> 
> And Ayra is sailing to the wall. That was pretty clear.


Nope HBO ordered two more seasons right before the fourth season premiere.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

wedgecon said:


> Nope HBO ordered two more seasons right before the fourth season premiere.


Maybe he worgs slowly.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

wedgecon said:


> Nope HBO ordered two more seasons right before the fourth season premiere.


I hope it lasts forever. I'm really enjoying this show.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I hope it lasts forever. I'm really enjoying this show.


well, it takes forever between seasons, so...


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> I hope it lasts forever. I'm really enjoying this show.


Well, it can last until he finishes the last book. From what I've heard, that might be forever!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> And Ayra is sailing to the wall. That was pretty clear.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I was totally serious when I read the first person's comment that they thought Arya was headed to the wall.

As I read 549 more posts about the topic, my mind was changed and it is very obvious (now) that she's going to Bravos. And I believe the book-readers confirmed that (in this thread) but perhaps I read that wrong.


Anyhoo...

Arya: Take me to the wall
Captain: Nope, headed to Bravos
Arya: Look at this shiny coin and fall victim to my demands
Captain: Ok, you have a cabin


I too thought the coin was enough to get any Bravoite to do anything for the coin holder and I didn't think that changed her initial request any. So I ended the show thinking she was headed for the wall.

But y'all have convinced me otherwise very well. 

Off to Bravos. Cool. Hope we meet more dancers. I liked that guy.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Off to Bravos. Cool. Hope we meet more dancers. I liked that guy.


You know, I liked Syrio Forel too, when he was alive***. I thought he was some master swordsman who turned fighting style into an art form. But now I'm really not sure. As we sort of saw over the last season, Ned taught Arya a lot of idealistic stuff, about the way the world should be, while the Hound sort of became her second father and taught her a lot about how the world actually is. In that scene were we see Arya try out her water dancing stuff on the Hound it suddenly occurred to me that maybe this is just another such example of that. Ned bought into some idea that fighting is an artform and hired this artist to teach Arya how to fight. Then here comes the Hound, and teaches her that crap will get you killed just like it got your pansy teacher was killed by Meryn F'ing Trant.

*** I presume he's dead now, but possibly not. It would really be something if it turns out he got captured and turned himself into Jaqen Hagar while locked up.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> You know, I liked Syrio Forel too, when he was alive***. I thought he was some master swordsman who turned fighting style into an art form. But now I'm really not sure. As we sort of saw over the last season, Ned taught Arya a lot of idealistic stuff, about the way the world should be, while the Hound sort of became her second father and taught her a lot about how the world actually is. In that scene were we see Arya try out her water dancing stuff on the Hound it suddenly occurred to me that maybe this is just another such example of that. Ned bought into some idea that fighting is an artform and hired this artist to teach Arya how to fight. Then here comes the Hound, and teaches her that crap will get you killed just like it got your pansy teacher was killed by Meryn F'ing Trant.
> 
> *** I presume he's dead now, but possibly not. It would really be something if it turns out he got captured and turned himself into Jaqen Hagar while locked up.


I do agree with you. OTOH, Syrio held off a few King's guards with a wooden sword for quit some time.

But I wonder if he would last long against a real fighter like either Clagagne brothers...


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I suspect that Syrio was teaching the honorable method of fighting while the Hound and Bronn subscribe to the more "down and dirty" approach.
(And a fat lot of good all that fancy dancing did Prince Oberyn  )

And don't forget, Ned Stark got felled when someone else struck him from behind while he was dueling with Jaime Lannister.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Yeah, Syrio had a wooden practice sword and was just trying to buy time for Arya to escape.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I suspect that Syrio was teaching the honorable method of fighting while the Hound and Bronn subscribe to the more "down and dirty" approach.
> (And a fat lot of good all that fancy dancing did Prince Oberyn  )
> 
> And don't forget, Ned Stark got felled when someone else struck him from behind while he was dueling with Jaime Lannister.


Agreed. Hard to beat a brute force brawler that has talent and heavy armor.

Prince Oberyn of course won the fight against the Mountain and if not for his silly talking could have killed him easily without incurring hardly a scratch. Perhaps proving that finesse and skill and dancing is the better method.

But in the end you get shanked from behind, hit with a rock, shot by an arrow you never saw coming, etc.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Syrio might have had more skill, but in a death-fight, I'd put my money on Hound or Bronn. I still remember someone saying that Bronn fought without honor, and Bronn pointed to his dead opponent and said something like "he had honor".


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

allan said:


> Syrio might have had more skill, but in a death-fight, I'd put my money on Hound or Bronn. I still remember someone saying that Bronn fought without honor, and Bronn pointed to his dead opponent and said something like "he had honor".


I was searching for Bronn's name. I really wonder how he would have done against some of the others, such as:

Two-handed Jaime
Ned Stark
Hound
Mountain
Prince cool guy from far away
Syrio

Then of course we have the fact that The Hound was bested by Brianna, who I believe also beat someone really good to win her position in the knighthood of her land. Or something.

Has anyone make a March Madness bracket for Game of Thrones fighters?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Brienne beat The Hound but The Hound was already suffering from an infection so he wasn't his normal, full power self.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> Then of course we have the fact that The Hound was bested by Brianna, who I believe also beat someone really good to win her position in the knighthood of her land. Or something.


Didn't she beat Loras Tyrell?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

goblue97 said:


> Didn't she beat Loras Tyrell?


That's my recollection.

It happened fast and was over quick (on the show).


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Lets be honest, here. Style is a matter of choice, yes, but it's also a matter of maximizing ones attributes, while minimizing ones weaknesses.

Arya is never going to be in the "brute force" camp. She has no chance to be a Mountain or a Hound. She's not going to win with strength. Finesse, skill, speed, these are the weapons she can use effectively. Use your opponents size and strength against him. Because she's never going to be the larger, or the stronger, combatant.

Put her in heavy armor, teach her to fight like the Hound or the Mountain, and her first opponent is going to kill her.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> Brienne beat The Hound but The Hound was already suffering from an infection so he wasn't his normal, full power self.


I think that the High Born tend to get taught the more honorable methods and it seems that in Westeros, those that fight honorably tend to get killed.

Even Brienne had to channel her inner Mike Tyson to beat the Hound.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Lets be honest, here. Style is a matter of choice, yes, but it's also a matter of maximizing ones attributes, while minimizing ones weaknesses.
> 
> Arya is never going to be in the "brute force" camp. She has no chance to be a Mountain or a Hound. She's not going to win with strength. Finesse, skill, speed, these are the weapons she can use effectively. Use your opponents size and strength against him. Because she's never going to be the larger, or the stronger, combatant.
> 
> Put her in heavy armor, teach her to fight like the Hound or the Mountain, and her first opponent is going to kill her.


This.

I'm in the camp that Ned realized his daughter wanted to learn to fight, and knowing that she would likely never be big enough and strong enough to hold a broadsword and fight in heavy armor, sought out a teacher who would help her play to her strengths. Enter Syrio.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> You know, I liked Syrio Forel too, when he was alive***. I thought he was some master swordsman who turned fighting style into an art form. But now I'm really not sure. As we sort of saw over the last season, Ned taught Arya a lot of idealistic stuff, about the way the world should be, while the Hound sort of became her second father and taught her a lot about how the world actually is. In that scene were we see Arya try out her water dancing stuff on the Hound it suddenly occurred to me that maybe this is just another such example of that. Ned bought into some idea that fighting is an artform and hired this artist to teach Arya how to fight. Then here comes the Hound, and teaches her that crap will get you killed just like it got your pansy teacher was killed by Meryn F'ing Trant.
> 
> *** I presume he's dead now, but possibly not. It would really be something if it turns out he got captured and turned himself into Jaqen Hagar while locked up.


"There is only one god, and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death: 'Not today'."

Needless to say, I do not believe that Syrio is dead.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> "There is only one god, and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death: 'Not today'."
> 
> Needless to say, I do not believe that Syrio is dead.


Syrio shape shifted into one of the Lannister swordsmen and walked out.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I doubt if Ned seriously thought that his daughter would ever have to fight for her life with a sword, or would ever kill a man with one. And thankfully he never will see it.

Just because one guy from Bravos can shape shift, doesn't really mean they all can, does it? Because that would be a weird place to live if they change their face whenever they feel like it.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)




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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I doubt if Ned seriously thought that his daughter would ever have to fight for her life with a sword, or would ever kill a man with one. And thankfully he never will see it.
> 
> Just because one guy from Bravos can shape shift, doesn't really mean they all can, does it? Because that would be a weird place to live if they change their face whenever they feel like it.


"To be a dancing master is a special thing. But to be a faceless man, that is something else entirely."

No, not everybody can change their face.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> So will next season finally be the last. The little boy Stark worgs into the disobedient black dragon and flames all the white walker babies and mankind is saved.


He may not be able to worg into a dragon. If he can't, I assume he will worg into
Hodor and use Hodor to catch the dragon and out a Bran saddle on it so he can just ride it around and dominate everything.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> This.
> 
> I'm in the camp that Ned realized his daughter wanted to learn to fight, and knowing that she would likely never be big enough and strong enough to hold a broadsword and fight in heavy armor, sought out a teacher who would help her play to her strengths. Enter Syrio.


Was this ever in question? I must have missed something.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

stalemate said:


> He may not be able to worg into a dragon. If he can't, I assume he will worg into
> Hodor and use Hodor to catch the dragon and out a Bran saddle on it so he can just ride it around and dominate everything.


Hodor on a dragon would be pretty cool.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

mawwelaDrargE said:


> All these frames are known for their durability, strength and corrosion resistant properties Red was a hot Fall/Winter color a couple of years back...


Hodor. Hodor!


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> Hodor on a dragon would be pretty cool.


Bran on Hodor on a dragon.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

stalemate said:


> Bran on Hodor on a dragon.


Eating a turkey leg.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Eating a turkey leg.


Wrapped in bacon.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Wrapped in bacon.


The turkey leg, or the whole thing?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

danterner said:


> The turkey leg, or the whole thing?


Well, I was envisioning just the turkey leg, but now that you mention it . . .


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

More here: http://fad-nation.com/101/star-wars-meets-game-thrones/


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## The Spud (Aug 28, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Wrapped in bacon.


In the conservatory with a lead pipe.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Finally finished a couple nights ago and just caught up to the discussion here. Can't believe we had 100 posts (or more) on where Arya was going (for the record, it was clear to me without reading the books - I mean come on, people) and barely a couple of posts about how Stannis got a thousand horses around the Wall. And not only that, but position then in such a way that they could attack from both sides, so happy of them would have had to travel a long way to get into position (all the while evading detection from Mance's 100K army. It looked really cool, though, gotta admit that. 

But I'm really here moot to discuss Bran's storyline. What the heck was that old guy in the tree? Looked like something straight out of a Monty Python sketch.
Very little


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Why did Stannis bring an army north of the wall again?


And where did he get an army?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Why did Stannis bring an army north of the wall again?
> 
> And where did he get an army?


Because God told him to. And he bought it from the Iron Bank.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Well the guys at castle black told him to, god just agreed with them


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

zordude said:


> Well the guys at castle black told him to, god just agreed with them


Yeah, but he doesn't care what the guys at Castle Black say. He just cares what God says.

(Or at least God's hoochie mama!)


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Ok, so the evil hottie witch who births shadow daemons basically convinced Stannis to go north of the wall and conquer. 

But how/where did he get the army? Took a loan? Was he rich?


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Remember the scene with Stannis and Ser Davos going to the Iron Bank of Braavos to get a loan, and convincing them that Stannis was the only really reliable potential ruler of Westeros? Then Davos went to the hot baths to hire back his old pirate friend from a season or two ago? That's where he got his army.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

And Braavos is on the far northwest tip of Essos, which is the continent where Dany is. So sailing from Braavos to the northeast side of Westeros, just north of the Wall is a relatively short trip.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

madscientist said:


> Remember the scene with Stannis and Ser Davos going to the Iron Bank of Braavos to get a loan, and convincing them that Stannis was the only really reliable potential ruler of Westeros? Then Davos went to the hot baths to hire back his old pirate friend from a season or two ago? That's where he got his army.


I do. Thank you. I had forgotten.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Ok, so the evil hottie witch who births shadow daemons basically convinced Stannis to go north of the wall and conquer.


Partly true. First, newly-literate Davos convinced Stannis not to execute him (for freeing Gendry), telling Stannis he'd need Davos' help assisting the Night's Watch. Then, Melisandre agrees that the war in the north is more important than the war of the five kings, and Stannis sees a vision of a great battle in the snow.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MacThor said:


> Partly true. First, newly-literate Davos convinced Stannis not to execute him (for freeing Gendry), telling Stannis he'd need Davos' help assisting the Night's Watch. Then, Melisandre agrees that the war in the north is more important than the war of the five kings, and Stannis sees a vision of a great battle in the snow.


Where do you get all this info? I like it.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Where do you get all this info? I like it.


From the TV show:

"First, newly-literate Davos convinced Stannis not to execute him (for freeing Gendry), telling Stannis he'd need Davos' help assisting the Night's Watch. Then, Melisandre agrees that the war in the north is more important than the war of the five kings"

Season 3, episode 10, after Stanis sentences Davos to death for freeing Gendry, and then Davos show him the raven letter from the wall.

"and Stannis sees a vision of a great battle in the snow."

Season 3, episode 8, when Stanis is talking to Davos in his jail cell


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Gendry was never with Stannis.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> Gendry was never with Stannis.


??? Yes, he was! Melisandre brought him there, "seduced" him to get a sample of his blood, threw him in prison, and used the blood to prove to Stannis that the blood magic worked. Then, before she could kill him to get the rest of his blood, Davos freed him.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ??? Yes, he was! Melisandre brought him there, "seduced" him to get a sample of his blood, threw him in prison, and used the blood to prove to Stannis that the blood magic worked. Then, before she could kill him to get the rest of his blood, Davos freed him.


Ya but besides that he never was!


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I may be mixing up the show vs book. Gendry was with Arya until they were captured by Thoros & Dondarian. Gendry wanted to stay with them to be a smith and Arya was stolen away by the Hound. How did he go from there to Stannis? I thought the boy Stannis had was yet another bastard of Robert's.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> I may be mixing up the show vs book. Gendry was with Arya until they were captured by Thoros & Dondarian. Gendry wanted to stay with them to be a smith and Arya was stolen away by the Hound. How did he go from there to Stannis? I thought the boy Stannis had was yet another bastard of Robert's.


Melisandre showed up at the Brotherhood and took Gendry.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

kaszeta said:


> Melisandre showed up at the Brotherhood and took Gendry.


That is why Melisandre is on Arya's "Hit List"


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

heySkippy said:


> I may be mixing up the show vs book.


You are.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> Melisandre showed up at the Brotherhood and took Gendry.


She didnt exactly "take" him. As I recall, the brotherhood essentially sold him away because they wanted the gold she offered them in exchange for Gendry. Is that correct?


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

tiassa said:


> That is why Melisandre is on Arya's "Hit List"


I read that in Casey Kasem's voice as "Greatest Hits List". 

At number 3 we have a beautiful heart breaker who loves fire as much as she loves belting out a shadow spirit of death. Here's Milisandre with her latest hit "Blood sucking leaches of my god's love."


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Fantastic before and after video of how GoT is created

Linky

The music is pretty good too 

Is it 2015 yet?


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

That's a great video.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

That's pretty incredible. Obviously the establishing shots of the Red Keep, or the Eyrie, or the Titan of Braavos are CGI, but I had no idea that so many of the more mundane shots included so much digital manipulation. No wonder it's the most expensive show on TV.


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