# Help me upgrade my Roamio OTA's HDD



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

I've got a Roamio OTA with lifetime service and a 1TB HDD internall HDD. Time has come to upgrade to a 2, 3, or 4TB drive. In preparation I D'L the MFS 3.32 toolset. I don't mind hooking drives up and copying/cloning them. I've read through some of the megathreads on upgrading but still have some questions. There seems to be be a lot of "shoulds" and vaguely conflicting information that rears it's ugly head when drilling down into the technicals.

I was originally thinking about using an external drive. But I read there's too many issues.

1- I want to upgrade without losing all existing programming or settings. Can this be done and exactly how do I go about it?

2- I understand that a 1TB to 3TB clone operation would require the target drive be resized or supersized. Exactly how is this done?

3- I would prefer to keep this operation as simple as possible and not use more than 1 or two programs. I'm not interested in using archivo or pytivo or similar as that appears to require a MAK and that implies a subscription service.

4- Thanks!


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Keatah said:


> 1- I want to upgrade without losing all existing programming or settings. Can this be done and exactly how do I go about it?


MFSTools 3.x is all you need. It would take many hours, even overnight, to copy over. Depending on how full it is, this includes the Recently Deleted Folder.


Keatah said:


> 2- I understand that a 1TB to 3TB clone operation would require the target drive be resized or supersized. Exactly how is this done?


Its all done with just the single MFSTools command line.


Keatah said:


> 3- I would prefer to keep this operation as simple as possible and not use more than 1 or two programs. I'm not interested in using archivo or pytivo or similar as that appears to require a MAK and that implies a subscription service.


Its all included in your Tivo service. It just need to be active on your tivo.com account. (enable Video Sharing, under DVr Preferences.) PyTivo is an example of programs that let you download or upload shows. You can also use KMTTG to download shows, backup/restore passes, etc.

It is recommended to use WD Red drives, ending in model EFRX (ie: WD30EFRX 3TB). The drives ending in EFAX does not work.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

This is were it gets confusing. 

If I just need MFS and single command line to clone and resize, why would I need to do anything wity PyTivo, or KMTTG?

Why wouldn't the cloning operation transfer everything over?

Sorry for being pedantic. But things with computers kinda force that. Potential rabbit holes and pitfalls even more so.


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Keatah said:


> I've got a Roamio OTA with lifetime service and a 1TB HDD internall HDD. Time has come to upgrade to a 2, 3, or 4TB drive. In preparation I D'L the MFS 3.32 toolset. I don't mind hooking drives up and copying/cloning them. I've read through some of the megathreads on upgrading but still have some questions. There seems to be be a lot of "shoulds" and vaguely conflicting information that rears it's ugly head when drilling down into the technicals.
> 
> I was originally thinking about using an external drive. But I read there's too many issues.
> 
> ...


No need to go external with Roamio as it uses 3.5" internal drive. Read the thread on MFS Tools, very easy to copy and expand. I'd recommend WD Purple if you want to use WD, all current model purples are CMR, they have AV firmware (Tivo is an AV device after all) and Weaknees uses purples in at least some of their upgrades.


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Since you are doing a copy and expand with MFSTools don't need Pytivo or any other program, those are for backing up and restoring, you are copying.


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Keatah said:


> If I just need MFS and single command line to clone and resize, why would I need to do anything wity PyTivo, or KMTTG?


You can download shows to view on a computer, use as a back up, in case something went wrong with your new drive/copy. This means that the drive must be running in the Tivo that recorded them.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

Ok. So one command line it is. Clones and resizes.

Next step is which drive. I just got two different suggestions. A RED NAS and PURPLE AV. Why those choices? Others have said the Green AV drive is yet another choice. But it sounds like Purple surveillance drive is the right choice? WD30PURX..


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

ThAbtO said:


> You can download shows to view on a computer, use as a back up, in case something went wrong with your new drive/copy. This means that the drive must be running in the Tivo that recorded them.


If something went wrong with the copy/clone process and the new drive didn't work, couldn't I just put the old drive back in or try again? I can't imagine the tivo firmware watching the drives being swapped like that..?

Or would the ROAMIO force a format in that situation? like if it sees a new drive and then the old one.. boom! format!


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

If you download shows to the computer, then you can do more things with it, such as remove commercials, etc. 


Keatah said:


> Next step is which drive. I just got two different suggestions. A RED NAS and PURPLE AV. Why those choices? Others have said the Green AV drive is yet another choice. But it sounds like Purple surveillance drive is the right choice? WD30PURX..


Not all WD Red works, the models ending in EFAX will not, but ending in EFRX will. The purple should work as a few have used them. 
Green AV are not being made any more, is sold overpriced, more noise (compared to the EFRX), needs settings turned off.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

Alright then. Thanks for the information so far. I'm leaning toward the Purple WD30PURX, because it's an AV surveillance drive.. Unless there is a reason to go with the Red WD30EFRX.

I plan to proceed like so..

1- disassemble tivo, replace fan, remove old 1tb hdd

2- create MFS toolkit cd/usb

3- connect both old and new hdd to pc

4- do something like *mfscopy -ai /dev/sdX /dev/sdY* to clone and resisze the 1tb drive to the 3tb drive.

5- install new 3tb into tivo

6- replace the cover and power the box up. And pray that the whole operation works.

Anything else? What's that I read about KS57 or KS58? And what does the -ai option do?


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Keatah said:


> 4- do something like *mfscopy -ai /dev/sdX /dev/sdY* to clone and resisze the 1tb drive to the 3tb drive.


You need to detemine what drive designation is assigned to each drive. It would not be exactly '/dev/sdX' The 'X' and 'Y' is only an example for their source and target. 
I think the command ldisk -l (small L) will tell what they are.

I believe you would only need to use -a and not -ai option, for this will also expand the drive to the full capacity.


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Keatah said:


> Thanks for the information so far. I'm leaning toward the Purple WD30PURX, because it's an AV surveillance drive


Actually the latest model is WD30PURZ. Either will work, unless you can get the PURX cheaper than the PURZ I'd go with the "Z". I would buy from a WD authorized seller, that way you get full warranty from the day of purchase. Just keep your receipt, maybe register it with WD.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

Alright. Next thing to do is purchase the drive and fan. And practice a clone operation in Linux, it's been a while. And wait for a break in the wife's tv schedule. May be a few weeks.

A question though, does the tivo roamio box keep the hdd spinning 100% of the time its powered on? Or does the hdd go into sleep modes when not watching or recording?


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Keatah said:


> does the tivo roamio box keep the hdd spinning 100% of the time its powered on?


Yes.


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Keatah said:


> If something went wrong with the copy/clone process and the new drive didn't work, couldn't I just put the old drive back in or try again? I can't imagine the tivo firmware watching the drives being swapped like that..?
> 
> Or would the ROAMIO force a format in that situation? like if it sees a new drive and then the old one.. boom! format!


With a Roamio yes, as long as you got the drive letters right when copying (ie did not copy the 3TB onto the 1TB). Not true with a Bolt, when swapping drives around you can lose everything. The Bolt does have OS info on a flash drive. As does the Roamio, but not as much which is why you can swap drives around and not lose things with a Roamio but not a Bolt.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

Still up in arms as to which drive to get.

WD30EURX green
WD30EFRX red
WD70PURZ purple

Some say the NAS/RED. Others says the surveillance Purple. Everyone says to avoid the green because of the cost. Cost isn't a concern considering potential headaches down the line later.

Confused because the drives have vastly different firmwares. 

I'm not even sure what's in there now. I won't have access to taking the unit apart till sometime mid-july. It's a series 5 ROAMIO OTA


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Keatah said:


> WD30EURX green
> WD30EFRX red
> WD70PURZ purple
> 
> Some say the NAS/RED. Others says the surveillance Purple. Everyone says to avoid the green because of the cost. Cost isn't a concern considering potential headaches down the line later.


Green is ok but no longer manufactured so even if you can find an unused one would probably be expensive and possibly no warranty. Red has NAS firmware, it is designed for multiple drive NAS systems. It would work (at least if you get the correct model number). Purple has AV firmware, is designed for 24/7 AV devices. Which is what a Tivo is. And Weaknees uses purples, they sell Tivo upgrades as a business. All 3 drives should work, consider warantees, current vs no longer manufactured models and what the drives are designed for.


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Green can give you a headache trying to figure how to turn off a few settings on the drive to make it work in Tivo.

Red (ending in EFRX) will work, but avoid (ends in EFAX). No settings to fuss with. Purple (PURx) will work also.
You can also go up to 8TB, but Roamio will only format up to 3TB, use MSFR (Windows program) to get full disk space.
MFSTools 3.x will work to copy the Roamio drive to new drive and use full space, but it would take many hours, even overnight.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

I just got through reading about the TLER/raid issue for the reds. And that the purples can only handle 4 streams at a time, but support 32 in an 8-drive configuration. Purples were also prone to handling internal surface errors again due to the TLER required for NAS boxes.

I was not aware that the green AV-GP needed a firmware patch to prevent power down. The standard green one, yes, it shuts down in 9 seconds. But the AV model WD30EURX stays on i believe, otherwise why call it an AV drive?

Then I read that a 3TB drive needs an upgraded power supply.. to handle the drive spin-up current draw.

This whole idea of doing an internal drive upgrade is becoming a rabbit hole I was hoping to avoid. Starting to think it may be better to just get the external 1TB tivo-approved DVR expander and just be careful about the cables. Two points of possible failure may be better than using the wrong drive.

Or simply go an entirely different route like cable and call it a day.

Sorry for being tedious and pedantic again. But with computers (and a dvr is computer) everything has to match and work together or problems arise later. And with the tivo design many things seem to be shrouded in mystery and have no room for mistakes or mismatches. 

People say the purple and reds work, for how long. A month, 2 months? Any proof they work for 2 years? What happens when an error crops up on the drive?


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Keatah said:


> Starting to think it may be better to just get the external 1TB tivo-approved DVR expander and just be careful about the cables.


That is not wise and these expanders are not made any more. More than 2 points for failures, the external drive, external case and connectors,the internal drive, the eSATA cable. The shows recorded are spread between the 2 drives, so any issues and you lose them.

The greens do not need a firmware patch. There is just a couple things on the drive that needs to be disabled before it will work. 


Keatah said:


> People say the purple and reds work, for how long. A month, 2 months? Any proof they work for 2 years? What happens when an error crops up on the drive?


I have a 4TB Red running 4+ years, no problems and is currently 40% full.


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Keatah said:


> I just got through reading about the TLER/raid issue for the reds. And that the purples can only handle 4 streams at a time, but support 32 in an 8-drive configuration. Purples were also prone to handling internal surface errors again due to the TLER required for NAS boxes.
> 
> I was not aware that the green AV-GP needed a firmware patch to prevent power down. The standard green one, yes, it shuts down in 9 seconds. But the AV model WD30EURX stays on i believe, otherwise why call it an AV drive?
> 
> ...


Well I'll put it to you this way. I have 4 "basic" Roamios with 3-4TB drives, been using for years (just CMR drives, nothing fancy with specialty firmware). Power supplies, just the standard 12v 2A. I do use some 8-12TB drives, with those I upgraded the power supply/AC adapter to 3-3.5A ($10-15). I WOULD avoid the external add on, another point of failure, have the main and the flash drive already. The Purple and the Red have 3 year warranty. Heck if cost is no object you could actually try a Gold, WDs best drive, 5 year warranty.

Bottom line, maybe I've been lucky but my Roamios have been solid for a good amount of years (3-4). Have not had a drive failure (knock on wood), I did have to replace a power supply/adapter once. Many people have old model Tivos with drives that have been working for over 5 years (myself included). And finally, one big advantage to a Roamio, you can keep backup drives, can swap around drives whenever you want (as long as on same OS, TE3 or TE4). If worried about drive failures just clone the drive every 3-4 years and keep the original as a backup. Good luck, might be actually thinking too much, 3-4TB 3.5" CMR upgrades pretty standard, rarely do I read about a Roamio drive failure, Bolts with 2.5", well...............................

Edit:

The Gold is a 7200 RPM drive I think. Some people say not to use 7200 in a Tivo because of heat issues. I have used 7200 myself with no problems. 5400 "safer" though I guess.


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

tommage1 said:


> Well I'll put it to you this way. I have 4 "basic" Roamios with 3-4TB drives


Actually make that 3 Roamio basics. The 4th is a Roamio Plus with a 4TB. The Plus has an internal power supply, not an AC adapter. Never had any power supply issues, in fact the Pro (which is the same as a Plus other than larger drive) came standard with a 3TB drive.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

Ok, what would need to be changed on a WD30EURX Green AV drive?


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Intellipark, and Power-up-in-Standby. It must be done connected by SATA to the MB. You would need to download the Ultimate Boot CD image and burn a bootable CD.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

I have UBC in my toolkit. Not sure I want to go _that _much into it. 
So I guess Red or Purple then. I just wish there was a more agreeable consensus because I feel that important details are being left out.


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

There is nothing else much to do to get a EFRX or PURX/Z to work in a Tivo. No image needed for Roamio or later models. Up to 3TB just to swap and drop in to working state.


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

There was one batch of WD20EURX 2TB AV Green drives that accidently made it into the wild with Power Up In Standby enabled. I have never heard of any other EURX drives that need tweaking. They're really old, so they're probably used and the warranty may already be expired.

The EFRX Red drives should work fine without any power supply problems (my basic Roamio has a 4TB), but they're getting hard to find. The 2-6 TB EFAX drives that are being sold now use SMR technology that doesn't play nice with TiVo. If you do run in power issues the 3A wall wart for Bolts is cheap at the TiVo store.

The PURX or PURZ Purples are AV rated, but TiVos don't use any of the firmware features like AllFrame. You can ignore any reviews or concerns abut the number of streams supported, etc. Weaknees sells them and many members here have used them successfully. The 8-14 TB versions are 7200 RPM instead of 5400 RPM, so they may be noisier and generate more heat.


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Keatah said:


> I have UBC in my toolkit. Not sure I want to go _that _much into it.
> So I guess Red or Purple then. I just wish there was a more agreeable consensus because I feel that important details are being left out.


Like I mentioned, don't over think it. Any name brand CMR (not SMR drive) should work fine. Questions come down to warranty and current vs discontinued model drives really (maybe price but you said you don't care much about that). Of the 3 drives you are considering the Purple is the only current model, the 3TB EFRX Red has been replaced with the EFAX which is SMR and is NOT recommended. This site is rather handy for determining if a drive model is CMR or SMR.

The HDD Platter Capacity Database

Just do it IMO, with a Roamio you will have the original as a backup in case anything unexpected happens. Looking forward to your post 5 years in the future "My drive is still working fine"


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

Gosh I hated that WD "silently" put SMR in NAS drives.

So..I'll be ordering a fan and the WD30EFRX in my next Amazon order. Sometime in the next week or so. Promise not to bother anymore about drive selections.

Now. I got an idea how to copy the 1TB to 3TB with mfscopy. My next question is will it grab all the TIVO's settings? Or will there be stuff we need to program back in or redo over?

Again thanks to all!


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Keatah said:


> Gosh I hated that WD "silently" put SMR in NAS drives.


You and the people who bought them, put in a NAS, failed, took 9 days to rebuild. And those who have filed a lawsuit against WD. Also there are a lot of recommendations in the forum here for Reds. Some people bought, upgrade failed, no one could figure out why. Until the news was released that latest model 2-6TB Reds had been changed to SMR. Too late for the people here who bought them, had to return or were stuck with the drives and had to buy alternatives. Time, money and frustration, the lawsuit is justified for sure.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

Is the BOLT power brick the same as the ROAMIO OTA's brick?


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Keatah said:


> Is the BOLT power brick the same as the ROAMIO OTA's brick?


it is 3A, Roamio is 2A. So better in case a larger drive might need more power.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

The startup current of the Red 3TB EFRX (CMR) is 1.73 A, as opposed to the ~1.2A inrush of a 1TB Green or similar. Extra mass of the platters and/or faster spinup time. Maybe even the initial startup of a more complex NAS drive's processor contributes something too. Many little factors involved here. Factors for which we don't have readily available information.

In general, 1.73A is too close to the limit of the standard 2A power brick. That leaves 270mA left for the mainboard. A 3A supply has 1.27A left over for the board. Granted most of the board's parts are likely comprised of 5V & 3.3V parts, perhaps other levels for the LAN circuitry.. So, anyways, that 270mA becomes more as the voltage becomes less. Ohm's law and all that. That's enough justification to get a bigger power adapter.

With that in mind I ordered a 3A supply - NBS40C120300VU.

Good news is the 3TB Reds have less power consumption when working, 4.1W read/write and 2.7W idle. That compared to a 1TB Green AV-GP drive with 5.5W read/write and 3.3W idle. Standby current is also lower at 0.4W Red and 0.7W Green.

Granted these are different capacities and generations of drives. And it may seem that a watt or two less consumption isn't important. It is, especially in enclosed spaces with that little ****box fan they got going.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

My next question(s) would be about identifying the correct source/destination drives once I have them hooked to the PC. I seem to recall there being a command for it but don't remember where I saw it.

And 2nd, can I use USB ports or do I absolutely need to partly disassemble the PC and use SATA?


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

See Post #11.


----------



## Gerardo Rivera (Mar 26, 2018)

i just updated my tivo roamio OTA last sunday with the 6tb hard drive everything was find apparently there's a list with the recently deleted channels that i can't delete. my recordings won't last a day after a day they just dissapear without even a trace. i really don't know what to do. there's no one who can help me on this?


----------



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Gerardo Rivera said:


> i just updated my tivo roamio OTA last sunday with the 6tb hard drive everything was find apparently there's a list with the recently deleted channels that i can't delete. my recordings won't last a day after a day they just dissapear without even a trace. i really don't know what to do. there's no one who can help me on this?


Roamio update

Duplicate post and reply.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

Just got all the parts, fan, drive, and torx tools.. It's not my personal Tivo, it's the wife's. Shows cannot be lost and everything has to go right without messing around later on.

This delete thing (post36) has me concerned now.

If this was my box I wouldn't be so anal about it all.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

Recap:
I'm in the process of trying to upgrade a ROAMIO|OTA from 1TB to 3TB. I want to keep the original programming & shows. And have the original 1TB and replacement 3TB HDDs hooked to my PC.

Problem:
Seem to be getting stuck after the mfscopy command, like so:

Typing *lsblk -o name,size,vendor*
IDs my disks as
sda 2.7T ATA
sdb 931.5G WD10
Good.

Then typing *mfscopy -a /dev/sdb /dev/sda*
..results in..
Scanning source drive. Please wait a moment.
Copy source: Can not determine primary boot partition from boot sector.

And typing *bootsectorfix /dev/sda*
..results in..
Little endian computer detected
Error not a Series 5 and later TiVo drive. Signature expected to be 9214 but is 00
Unable to process drive.

I've not written to anything to the original TiVo 1TB drive with the PC yet.

So what am I missing? Is there some sort of prep I need to do on the new drive? It's fresh-out-of-the-box so I presume it's zero-filled from the factory.

I'm certain the drive assignments are correct *sda *and *sdb*. And the original 1TB drive seems to work just fine in the TiVo box.

Using CD image:
MFSTools_3.32-devel_openSUSE_Leap_42.1_JeOS.x86_64-1.0.5-Build6.1.iso


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

I ran *bootsectorfix /dev/sdb* on the source drive and that fixed the error which was preventing *mfscopy -a /dev/sdb /dev/sda* from working. Was hesitant to run it and make changes to the original drive, but was reassured the change isn't seen by the TiVo's OS.
MFS Tools 3.2

Disk is imaging now 1TB -=> 3TB.

Check in later.


----------



## Keatah (Jun 30, 2020)

Well it looks as if everything is working fine. Tip of the hat to everyone that answered my questions. You know who you are!


----------

