# When is 9.3 (or whatever) coming out?



## gwar9999 (Jan 16, 2007)

After my original TiVo S3 upgraded to 9.1/9.2 and with those versions introduced some annoying bugs (audio dropoffs in the first few seconds when switching channels, channel surfing, etc) I was expecting a subsequent release to fix these issues.

My new (broken) S3 replacement arrived with 8.0 and those bugs were gone. However, it since upgraded itself to 9.2 and the bugs have returned. It'll be going back soon and a new 8.0 unit will arrive. Considering I get to relive the glory days of TiVo without the glitches each time a replacement arrives it's somewhat of a disappointment when it upgrades to 9.2. Sans pulling the network connection I don't think there is a way to prevent the inevitable _upgrade_ to 9.2.

I just wish TiVo would fix these bugs already so I wouldn't have to be teased with a working 8.0 that transforms into a buggy 9.2.

Anybody know what the url TiVo uses to fetch upgrades from? If it's different than the url to fetch guide data then maybe I can configure my firewall to block that specific url (ie. still get the guide data w/o the buggy 9.2 update).


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

I've been asking that question --When is 9.3 (or whatever) coming out? -- for 19 weeks now. No answer.


----------



## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

So when software updates are rushed out and have bugs, Tivo should take their time and do more testing and put out a better product?

But when Tivo takes their time to put together what should hopefully be a good bug free software release, they're not releasing code fast enough?

Awesome.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> So when software updates are rushed out and have bugs, Tivo should take their time and do more testing and put out a better product?
> 
> But when Tivo takes their time to put together what should hopefully be a good bug free software release, they're not releasing code fast enough?
> 
> Awesome.


When TiVo pushes out a hurried, untested software release riddled with bugs they should own up to it and fix it ASAP. There is no excuse for the release crap and fix it six months later routine that they have had for years.

In other words if they did the second as they should then they wouldn't be doing the first as they almost always do.


----------



## gwar9999 (Jan 16, 2007)

RoyK said:


> When TiVo pushes out a hurried, untested software release riddled with bugs they should own up to it and fix it ASAP. There is no excuse for the release crap and fix it six months later routine that they have had for years.
> 
> In other words if they did the second as they should then they wouldn't be doing the first as they almost always do.


Couldn't agree more. 9.1 took awhile to come out, it had bugs and 9.2 seemed to follow quickly enough-- introducing more bugs while fixing some of the 9.1 issues (if memory serves). However, the 9.2 glitches are still in there, if something worked perfectly in 8.0 why can't they fix it by now?

For instance, the channel surfing bug should be a piece of cake to fix (FWIW, a simple fix would be to allow the user to hold down CH+/CH- and simply display the guide data for each channel skipped over and only attempt to display the video signal after the button is released). The audio dropouts on channel change might be more complex, but it worked fine on 8.0 too.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVo has had some masive work to do under the covers of all these initial x.__ releases lately. Introducing a new platform (serie 3 and its digtal recording along with HD) and then getting it to be compatible with the older series 2 analog recording platform for MRV and so forth - all while doing Comcast and some other new features was a massive amount of work. massive.

I imagine TiVo took a deep breath and went to work on prioritizing bugs and working on them in a way to make the whole codebase cleaner and more unified versus trying to rush out yet the next update. At least if I was doing their release management it is what I would be insisting on


----------



## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

RoyK said:


> When TiVo pushes out a hurried, untested software release riddled with bugs they should own up to it and fix it ASAP. There is no excuse for the release crap and fix it six months later routine that they have had for years.
> 
> In other words if they did the second as they should then they wouldn't be doing the first as they almost always do.


Cheap, Fast, Bug free.

Pick 2 out of three.

Given Tivo's financial situation, "cheap" has got to be one of them, so you can either have "fast" or "bug free", but not both.

I'm with Zeo - taking their time to "clean up" from the crazyness of the last few release cycles and put out a solid, clean base of code is a great idea.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> I'm with Zeo - taking their time to "clean up" from the crazyness of the last few release cycles and put out a solid, clean base of code is a great idea.


In theory, what you say makes a lot of sense. In reality, most of TiVo's outsourced "engineers" in various third-world countries scattered around the planet probably couldn't tell the difference between a DVR and a VCR.

In all seriousness, do you have any evidence at all that the delays are due to anything other than simple *incompetence?* That's what Occam's razor suggests as the simplest explanation.

IMO the software is late and buggy because "media moguls" like Tom Rogers don't understand, and therefore don't care about, software. I don't know Rogers personally, but I've seen the attitude of "I don't understand this, but it must be simple" from quite a few management types.


----------



## Moebius (Nov 25, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> In all seriousness, do you have any evidence at all that the delays are due to anything other than simple *incompetence?* That's what Occam's razor suggests as the simplest explanation.


The reverse question could also apply. There's no evidence to suggest that it's due to incompetence either. The simple fact is that we don't know what they're going through. It could be lack of financial resources, it could be difficulties in trying to keep cross compatiblity with multiple plaftforms. It could be engineers that aren't really qualified. It could be a project manager who just doesn't care enough to do things right. It could be any of these things. We'll never know.

However, since I consider myself a satisfied TiVo customer for going on 5 years now, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and hope that the next release is a solid one.


----------



## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> In theory, what you say makes a lot of sense. In reality, most of TiVo's outsourced "engineers" in various third-world countries scattered around the planet probably couldn't tell the difference between a DVR and a VCR.


You make a good point. I work in the telecommunications industry that outsources a good portion of the code written in a new release. I work with people in India that write code for us. I believe the people working in these low cost software houses are intelligent as any programmers working in the USA. I remember when they used to come here on visas to work in the US software industry.

The problem is they are writing code for a product they never touch. I've never been there, but these low cost centers are high tech sweat shops in the classic sense, from what I observed from afar. The upper management's model for these places is "faster, cheaper, buggy", regardless the spin they put on it.

I admit to not having a clue how TIVO runs their software business, but if they are involved in outsourcing their software overseas, we are only looking at a diminishing level of quality with each new release.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo has had some masive work to do under the covers of all these initial x.__ releases lately. Introducing a new platform (serie 3 and its digtal recording along with HD) and then getting it to be compatible with the older series 2 analog recording platform for MRV and so forth - all while doing Comcast and some other new features was a massive amount of work. massive.
> .......


That's still no excuse for knowingly releasing buggy code.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

RoyK said:


> That's still no excuse for knowingly releasing buggy code.


Easy, the buggy code has less bugs then the version it's replacing.

I thought a recent poster talked about 9.2a being rolled out shortly.


----------



## gwar9999 (Jan 16, 2007)

GoHokies! said:


> Cheap, Fast, Bug free.
> 
> Pick 2 out of three.
> 
> ...


Even if they hold-off and push-out a polished 9.3 (or whatever) bug-free release there is no guarantee that the subsequent release (9.4 or whatever + 0.1) will be of the same quality or a rehash of 9.2 buginess. Since the end-TiVo-user cannot prevent their TiVo from automatically installing (potentially bug laden) updates then the user can go from TV utopia to TV hell (or any destination inbetween) in a heartbeat.

Obviously, I wish every TiVo release could be bug free (or as close to that as possible-- and any bugs that surfaced were quickly fixed) but history shows that isn't the case when it comes to TiVo's. Sure, most of the bugs are annoyances rather than show-stoppers but for the price of admission ($650 for my original S3 + about $100/yr service) each release should bring nirvana rather than fear.

Lucky for TiVo their bugs are less critical than the cable co. DVR's (SA over here). I had an S1, replaced it with the SA 8300HD and 2 months later I ditched that POS and shelled out the money for an S3.


----------



## sommerfeld (Feb 26, 2006)

RoyK said:


> That's still no excuse for knowingly releasing buggy code.


Clearly you've never been involved with the development of large scale software systems. Even for systems much simpler than a tivo, there's no such thing as "bug free"; add in continuously changing requirements and a steady rate of new enhancements coming in and you basically are guaranteed that any release that goes out the door will have some serious bugs in it.

So there needs to be some degree of triage of bugs into ones serious enough to block a release, and ones which can be lived with for a release cycle or two.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

From what I recall, TivoPony said TiVo had a "bug fix release" (paraphrase) in the works. I would expect that update this spring.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

sommerfeld said:


> Clearly you've never been involved with the development of large scale software systems. ...


Only for 25 years......


----------



## logicman1 (Jan 10, 2008)

RoyK said:


> That's still no excuse for knowingly releasing buggy code.


Why do you say they *knowingly *release buggy code like it's a decision someone made? I've been writing code for over 36 years. No matter how thoroughly software is tested, it is impossible to release 100% bug free code. There are always situations that occur in the real world that are impossible to replicate during testing.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Only for 25 years......


and you never had compelling busines reasosn to put out a codebase with no showstopping bugs but a list of known bugs that would be worked on going forward along with new features and requirements

If TiVo was missing recordings or shows were being lost from now playing or some other large error, then i would be with you. The kinds of bugs TiVo has out in production though are annoying but hardly keep the DVR features from functioning.

The only real issues I have seen are system failures and severe slowdowns. The % of those are not high enough though to lay at the feet of buggy code only and certainly are multi-facted issues that simply can notbe tested for and completely prevented.

anyone with 2.5 years would see that, let along 25


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

logicman1 said:


> Why do you say they *knowingly *release buggy code like it's a decision someone made? I've been writing code for over 36 years. No matter how thoroughly software is tested, it is impossible to release 100% bug free code. There are always situations that occur in the real world that are impossible to replicate during testing.


I refer you to this thread.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=368311

I don't see how anyone could read this and believe that TiVo didn't know full well that either the code was untested or was knowingly released with gross bugs.


----------



## sommerfeld (Feb 26, 2006)

RoyK said:


> I refer you to this thread.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=368311
> 
> I don't see how anyone could read this and believe that TiVo didn't know full well that either the code was untested or was knowingly released with gross bugs.


So, that's your pet bug. (We all have them. We all think they're the most important bug and should be fixed first. We need to get over that).

IMHO it's nowhere near a showstopper.

A crash, or something that causes a recording to be lost or corrupted would be one thing. a transient rendering glitch with a workaround is something else entirely.


----------



## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

There are several threads on this forum, each with hundreds of posts, about the two or three crashing bugs Tivo shipped 9.2 with.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

sommerfeld said:


> So, that's your pet bug. (We all have them. We all think they're the most important bug and should be fixed first. We need to get over that).
> 
> IMHO it's nowhere near a showstopper.
> 
> A crash, or something that causes a recording to be lost or corrupted would be one thing. a transient rendering glitch with a workaround is something else entirely.


I referred to the entire thread - not just the first of many reported bugs.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and you never had compelling busines reasosn to put out a codebase with no showstopping bugs but a list of known bugs that would be worked on going forward along with new features and requirements
> 
> .......


Lives and large amounts of money directly depended on the software we wrote so no, we never released software with known bugs. And it didn't take enormous resources or a large staff to make it so.

Of course a few things surfaced in the field. When they did the entire customer base was immediately notified and I cannot remember a single one that wasn't fixed within two weeks.


----------



## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

RoyK said:


> Lives and large amounts of money directly depended on the software we wrote so *no, we never released software with known bugs*. And it didn't take enormous resources or a large staff to make it so.
> 
> Of course a few things surfaced in the field. When they did the entire customer base was immediately notified and I cannot remember a single one that wasn't fixed within two weeks.


None at all? I find that completely impossible to believe.

Anything more complex that "Hello World" is bound to have a known bug or three.

The vast majority of Tivo users aren't having the problems that the few loud posters here are having (or they have better things to do that post about them over and over on an internet forum). The problem is not as large as you're making it out to be.


----------



## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

Series 3 is randomly rebooting 270 posts

Tivo HD - All Video Vanishes 382 posts

I find your dismissive attitude somewhat offensive. I'm glad that you are happy with your Tivo, but there is a huge number of people who aren't.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Lives and large amounts of money directly depended on the software we wrote so no, we never released software with known bugs. And it didn't take enormous resources or a large staff to make it so.
> 
> Of course a few things surfaced in the field. When they did the entire customer base was immediately notified and I cannot remember a single one that wasn't fixed within two weeks.


ok, you have a special case on business decisions, paramount being not to kill someone. I imagine the software has a maintenance contract that went for a little more than 12.95 a month.  Still bugs did get out into the field even with lives depending on it and the software probably used in very controlled environments. How is a DVR maker with no lives depending n the code going to put out bug free code and stay in business?

Also the two threads linked by bizzy are prime examples of the convergence of hardware and software and cable broadcast signal strength and thing people might do to change the hardware all coming together intoa pile that is far too large to test all permutations of.

if either of those bugs effected even 5% of the total DVR subscription base it would have been wrtten up by all the tech blogs as a major issue. if it was 10% of the subscriber base then it would be on the major tech coverage magazines radar. These problems are not though and thus are most likely affecting far fewer than 1% of the subscribers.

They are annoying and they do affect use of the DVR but the small number and most likely hard to replicate in the test lab nature of such problems means the company either freezes any upgreades to their products for a very long time or they ship anyway and use return policies and so forth to help out those hit with a problem.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> Anything more complex that "Hello World" is bound to have a known bug or three.


Bound to have bugs? Maybe. Bound to have _known_ bugs? I don't agree. I have some very large projects with no bugs known to me. I mean, if I know about them, I generally fix them...


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wmcbrine said:


> Bound to have bugs? Maybe. Bound to have _known_ bugs? I don't agree. I have some very large projects with no bugs known to me. I mean, if I know about them, I generally fix them...


there ar logic or configuration bugsthat are usually straightforward to fix.
The TiVo is doing a lot more than just straight logic and has the main timing belt of recording two streams real time while being able to play those back or a third off the hard drive real time/trick play while also writing and reading two other streams from the drive if requested.

This is not easy stuff to debug when it is a gremlin type bug such as a black screen for video


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ok, you have a special case on business decisions, paramount being not to kill someone. I imagine the software has a maintenance contract that went for a little more than 12.95 a month.  Still bugs did get out into the field even with lives depending on it and the software probably used in very controlled environments. How is a DVR maker with no lives depending n the code going to put out bug free code and stay in business?
> .....


Maybe by putting out bug free code that does what their customers expect it to do without crashing their equipment, locking up, and requiring frequent resets? Little things like that?

Oh and did you not see the part about not requiring a large staff or huge resources? It takes competent hardware and software engineers and a QC manager that can be a real SOB sometimes but it can be done. Maintenance contract cost has little to do with it. If you put out viable software in the first place there isn't much maintenance to do.


----------



## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Whenever its coming out, there's only one bug I care about them fixing. That's the video output format getting set to 720p fixed. I set it to hybrid for a reason and I'd like it to remember that.

Apart from that the S3s are working for me.


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

RoyK said:


> That's still no excuse for knowingly releasing buggy code.


Tell that to Bill Gates!!!!

Tim S

PS, You might wish to have an hard hat on when you do it.


----------



## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

bizzy said:


> I find your dismissive attitude somewhat offensive. I'm glad that you are happy with your Tivo, but there is a huge number of people who aren't.


The number of people complaining here compared against the number of tivo subscribers suggests that you are incorrect.


----------



## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

I am appalled at the excuses being made for Tivo. Programing is hard. . . The bugs aren't too bad. . . Tivo can't afford to put out code that isn't buggy . . . Are you people crazy?? Customers are purchasing and paying every month for a machine that reboots randomly, loses video, and stutters, requiring a manual re-start to fix. These are inexcusable defects that need to be addressed. The machines are also sluggish to the point where you can't flip channels because it takes so long for a channel to load (not to mention the fear of a reboot that can happen any time you change the channel). 

I don't see Tivo waiving anyone's monthly fee while its gets its act together. To the contrary, they deny a widespread problem and give customers busy work to buy time -- "try running to machine without cable cards for a while!" 

Tivo exists only because people appreciate its superiority to generic DVR's. If it cannot write stable code, it will not be in business for long. I have been a Tivo customer for over 5 years and have 2 machines, but any more problems and I am switching to Cablevision. I expect when I buy a product that it will work now, not in 6 months. I am sure I am not alone in that sentiment.


----------



## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> The number of people complaining here compared against the number of tivo subscribers suggests that you are incorrect.


Really? how many disappointed and frustrated Tivo customers are acceptable? 2%? 5%? 15%? More importantly for Tivo's future, how many unhappy Tivo HD customers can the company afford to alienate?

I think that, based upon the number of tivo HD customers complaining on just this forum, compared to the relatively few number of total Tivo HD owners, there is a real problem.


----------



## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

KJW said:


> Really? how many disappointed and frustrated Tivo customers are acceptable? 2%? 5%? 15%? More importantly for Tivo's future, how many unhappy Tivo HD customers can the company afford to alienate?
> 
> I think the number of tivo HD customers complaining on just this forum, compared to the relatively few number of total Tivo HD owners, there is a real problem.


They lost one sale I now of. I was going to buy another TIVOHD to replace the QIP6416 in my den, but now I'm not due to the pixelation issue, I'm having with the one in the family room. In fact I will probably never buying another Tivo.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

KJW said:


> Really? how many disappointed and frustrated Tivo customers are acceptable? 2%? .


I doubt that even 2% is acceptable to TiVo, which leads me to believe the number is not as high as that


----------



## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

KJW said:


> Really? how many disappointed and frustrated Tivo customers are acceptable? 2%? 5%? 15%? More importantly for Tivo's future, how many unhappy Tivo HD customers can the company afford to alienate?
> 
> I think that, based upon the number of tivo HD customers complaining on just this forum, compared to the relatively few number of total Tivo HD owners, there is a real problem.


How many posters do you see complaining? Dozens?

How many TivoHD's have been sold? Thousands? Tens of thousands?

Even at the numbers you are claiming, that isn't a "huge" number as has been characterized in this thread.

Without hard numbers, which are impossible to come by, this is a stupid and utterly pointless argument to be having. Claiming it as "huge numbers", let trying to put percentages on it is just completely making things up.

Regardless of how we got here (or exactly where we are now), back to my original point. Would you rather Tivo rush out a software update fixing the old bugs while introducing new ones, or take their time and do a proper software release? Maybe if Dish would ever let go of the millions they owe Tivo, Tivo could triple the number of programmers and do both. It all (again) boils down to fast, cheap and bug free (pick 2 out of 3). Wishing otherwise (or making angry posts about it on the internet) isn't going to change that simple fact.


----------



## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

KJW said:


> any more problems and I am switching to Cablevision.


Are you saying Tivo only needs to have its software working well enough to beat Cablevision?


----------



## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

yunlin12 said:


> Are you saying Tivo only needs to have its software working well enough to beat Cablevision?


Actually, I'm saying that Tivo should at least work as well as a generic DVR. The Cablevision DVR I had prior to my Tivo HD was far more stable. So for me, if things keep going the way they are, I may go back to Cablevision. My larger point, however, is that Tivo needs to provide a reliable product or others may also look elsewhere.


----------



## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> How many posters do you see complaining? Dozens?
> 
> How many TivoHD's have been sold? Thousands? Tens of thousands?
> 
> ...


I never claimed the numbers are huge. To the contrary, I simply wondered how many disgrunted customers Tivo was willing to accept. You are the one who concluded that the problems are no big deal; I was just wondering how you decided that and using what baseline -- 2% of machines, 20%?? Clearly, having conceded you have no idea how widespread the problem is, you conclusion is based simply on the fact that you and some unknown number of other are having no problems. So the rest of us should stop whining -- after all, you're happy.

Onto your original point, your opinion -- again based on the fact that your machine is working fine -- is that everyone else should be patient so tivo can "do a proper software release". However, it is unreasonable to expect patience from people who have paid, and are still paying monthly, for a machine that doesn't work as promised, if at all. Tivo needs to address this because it is alienating customers. You can talk all you want about resource allocation and tivo taking its time to resolve issues. I am simply wondering how many customers are getting fed up each week and abandoning their machines in the interim. Just as significantly, how many people are complaining about tivo to friends and colleagues instead of praising it?

Finally, your "fast, cheap and bug free (pick 2 out of 3)" ultimatum misses the point completely. If tivo cannot afford to fix bugs quickly and still offer its product at an acceptable price point, it will not be in business for very long. Up to this point, tivo has been a cutting edge company that offered a great product for which people were willing to pay a premium. If it can no longer do this, people will try other, cheaper products from tivo's competitors.


----------



## jay_winter (Jan 13, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> How many posters do you see complaining? Dozens?


Are you really that naive? Do you actually think that everyone who experiences problems with their Tivo box is also complaining about it? 
And, if they do complain, do you think they all post their complaints >HERE< for your reading pleasure?
And, if Tivo says "But, we've only had >THIS MANY< complaints!", do you believe them?
Many of us --maybe even the vast majority-- have seen the evidence posted here that neither Tivo nor our cable provider is either willing or able to resolve the cablecard/pixelation issues. The best we can hope for the that the next software rev will fix it, so we wait, rather than wrestle with service providers who are only interested in collecting their monthly fees.

The infuriating thing is that my $500 DVR can't display a reliable digital channel as well as the simple set-top box that my cable provider offers.


----------



## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

KJW said:


> I never claimed the numbers are huge.


I never said you did. Other posters in the thread have.


> To the contrary, I simply wondered how many disgrunted customers Tivo was willing to accept. You are the one who concluded that the problems are no big deal; I was just wondering how you decided that and using what baseline -- 2% of machines, 20%??


If the problems were more widespread, I think that we would see more people complaining. Regardless, I've already said that the data isn't there to support either assertion, so why waste the time to debate it? Bickering over where we are and how we got there is pointless. What is important is "what is the best way to move ahead?" Any suggestions?



> Clearly, having conceded you have no idea how widespread the problem is, you conclusion is based simply on the fact that you and some unknown number of other are having no problems. So the rest of us should stop whining -- after all, you're happy.


Riddle me this: what good is whining going to do? If anything it's going to be counter productive, and pressure Tivo to release the software before it's ready - more bugs.



> Onto your original point, your opinion -- again based on the fact that your machine is working fine -- is that everyone else should be patient so tivo can "do a proper software release". However, it is unreasonable to expect patience from people who have paid, and are still paying monthly, for a machine that doesn't work as promised, if at all. Tivo needs to address this because it is alienating customers. You can talk all you want about resource allocation and tivo taking its time to resolve issues. I am simply wondering how many customers are getting fed up each week and abandoning their machines in the interim. Just as significantly, how many people are complaining about tivo to friends and colleagues instead of praising it?
> 
> Finally, your "fast, cheap and bug free (pick 2 out of 3)" ultimatum misses the point completely. If tivo cannot afford to fix bugs quickly and still offer its product at an acceptable price point, it will not be in business for very long. Up to this point, tivo has been a cutting edge company that offered a great product for which people were willing to pay a premium. If it can no longer do this, people will try other, cheaper products from tivo's competitors.


It isn't an ultimatum, it's a hard and cold fact of life. Sorry if that's inconvienent. You can whine all you want about how Tivo needs to "do something", but I haven't heard a rational suggestion from anyone that will actually work. If you have one, I'm sure Tivo would love to employ you. You're not the first to suggest that Tivo's demise in imminent. So far, all the others have been wrong. It's likely that you are too.



jay winter said:


> Are you really that naive?


Yes, naive is exactly what I am. 

I've already said that trying to argue the numbers is pointless - the data just isn't there.

If you're not happy with your Tivo, and not wanting to wait for a new update, give me your Tivo and get a cable DVR.


----------



## logicman1 (Jan 10, 2008)

KJW said:


> Actually, I'm saying that Tivo should at least work as well as a generic DVR. The Cablevision DVR I had prior to my Tivo HD was far more stable. So for me, if things keep going the way they are, I may go back to Cablevision. My larger point, however, is that Tivo needs to provide a reliable product or others may also look elsewhere.


Interesting. What software was running on your Cablevision DVR? I had a Motorola DCT6412. When my cable provider was Suscom, Passport Echo was the OS and while it wasn't Tivo, it was user friendly and reliable. When Suscom sold out to Comcast they switched to TV Guide Interactive, the worst piece of crap I have ever used. The bugs that were present in that software are what made me switch to Tivo. Here are some of the issues I experienced:


If a recording was in progress when an EAS test occurred, the DVR would go berserk and record 20+ hours of whatever programming followed the program that was scheduled for recording causing unwatched recordings to be deleted.

Setting a Series Recording (Season Pass) would frequently crash the box. Then it would take 8 or more hours before all the programming data reloaded.

Series Recordings definitions would randomly disappear.

Audio on recorded SD programming was always out of sync with video.

Pressing remote buttons often took the DVR 5-10 seconds to respond.
The designers of the TV Guide Interactive user interface were guided by the principle that a user interface should inflict pain on the user. Lastly, the programming data was frequently wrong.

So, for me the Tivo software seems pretty clean.


----------



## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

Interesting that the "Fanboy" advice is to stop whining, or posting about your issues, and then they use the fact that not that many people are posting about issues to support their argument that there are not widespread issues.

This is the same "Fanboy" cr*p that was posted in my original threads about pixelation issues and troubleshooting with my Tivo HDs during their initial release. All the posts then started with claiming that it was a Cable issue. Then when it turned out it was more than one software bug in the Tivo HD causing the issues, no more "Fanboy" posts.

Why doesn't anyone who wants to support Tivo by saying "I am not having problems so you shouldn't be either" keep their posts to themselves rather than telling others who are hiving issues to keep their opinions to themselves? I am not personally having issues any longer, but when I was it was a frustrating experience and I can sympathize with those that are having problems.


----------



## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> The number of people complaining here compared against the number of tivo subscribers suggests that you are incorrect.


Disingenuous and misleading.
What percentage of tivo users even know about this forum?

I will be charitable and assume that you simply lack common sense, instead of leaping to the conclusion that you have some motive for spreading this misinformation. Your tactics seem common to paid PR flacks who have been outed on customer forums in the past.


----------



## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

With all due respect, GoHokies!, why do you care? You are complaining that people are whining and complaining, but that's because they have problems. You have no dog in this fight, so why are you antagonizing people with opinions that are based on nothing but speculation. A lot of people here are annoyed over specific issues, and that undoubtedly represents only a fraction of customers with these problems. Yet you ignore this obvious fact and baseless insist that, "If the problems were more widespread, I think that we would see more people complaining." How many more to you need?? Obviously, me and others on this board think its enough. Who are you to say, no? And exactly how many more would you like?? Have you counted the number of people complaining? Have you looked at statistics of the people who complaint on message boards compared to a total population of those with the problem?

Second, what good will whining do? Well, it may let Tivo know how widespread the problem is and how annoyed its customers are. That may lead them to, first, allocate more resources to addressing the issue and less on other software tasks, such as fixing minor bugs or implementing new features. Second, to the extent these singificant issues are addressed sooner rather than later, tivo may be prompted to issue an interim update to fix these problems, rather than hold it to incorporate into a major update that addresses many issues and enables new features. Are those rationale suggestions? Because they blow away your "fast, cheap and bug free (pick 2 out of 3)" theory by noting the reality that existing resources can be reassigned to meet an emergent need.

Third, I understand people have long been predicting Tivo's demise. But those naysayers were basing their opinions on a perceived weak business model and slow growth in direct consumer sales. What they did not appreciate was the loyal fan-base Tivo had. My concern is that Tivo is ignoring its core customers -- those willing to upgrade to new products like the HD model -- and that this will erode enthusiasm. Also, as data confirms, cable DVR's have eaten into tivo's market share. As a result, Tivo needs to make sure it keeps its core market happy. Which leads to. . . 

Fourth, consumer 101. You can argue all you want about resource allocation and time pressures, but the most important thing a consumer product company must do is maintain the perception that it is meeting the needs of its target market. There may be perfectly logical reasons for not fixing a problem for a month or two or six, but consumers don't care, because they don't have to. If a tivo customer feels they are not being served, they will move to a new product. So while you feel snug in the knowledge that tivo is maintaining the integrity of the software development process, customers are getting angry and moving to other products. You may think that its insignificant if 10, or 100, or 1000 people drop their subscriptions, but I doubt tivo's shareholders and creditors will agree. 

so, Tivo, how about it? at least acknowledge the issue and let us know when these problems will be addressed.


----------



## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

Thank you, KJW, for doing all the typing that I am too lazy to. I offer you a hearty "YEAH! WHAT HE SAID".

As a concrete example of the consumer group you mention, I'd like to point out that I fully expect my refurb warranty replacement S3 to die, probably within 6 months of my warranty coverage expiring. At that time, I have no intention of wasting my hard-earned money on another Tivo product.


----------



## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

logicman1 said:


> Interesting. What software was running on your Cablevision DVR? I had a Motorola DCT6412. When my cable provider was Suscom, Passport Echo was the OS and while it wasn't Tivo, it was user friendly and reliable. When Suscom sold out to Comcast they switched to TV Guide Interactive, the worst piece of crap I have ever used. The bugs that were present in that software are what made me switch to Tivo. Here are some of the issues I experienced:
> 
> 
> If a recording was in progress when an EAS test occurred, the DVR would go berserk and record 20+ hours of whatever programming followed the program that was scheduled for recording causing unwatched recordings to be deleted.
> ...


Cablevision used Scientific Atlantic boxes running Sara (?) software. It was ugly, utterly unintuitive, and had very few features, but it worked. Tivo is postively elegent in comparison and a joy to use, but what good are all the extra features if its keeps crashing?


----------



## menos (Nov 13, 2007)

Just to offer a point to the debate.
I am on Cox Cable in the OKC market. I am having the 'channels go black' problem. I have spoken with the Cable Card rep at Cox here in OKC (My brother-in-law works for Cox and he called her up), and she stated that 80-90% of the users in the OKC market that have a TivoHD and SA M-card are having the problem. She has apparently done her research because she new exactly what the problem was, she even mentioned going to tivocommunity for the thread on the subject.

My point... If the failure rate is 80-90% in Cox SA environments, overall that's a pretty darn high problem rate. Cox cable has about a 12-15% market share of all Cable customers. So give or take 12% of all TivoHD customers are on Cox Cable. So possibily 80% of those customers are having a problem with the channels going black. That equates to a possibility that at least 10% of ALL TivoHD customers are having this problem. That is incredible! And that is assuming that Cox customers with SA M-Cards are the only ones having this problem. If you take into account that customers of other cable providers may be suffering from the same problem, the percentage just goes up.

I know they say they are working on the problem, but this is getting quite frustrating.


----------



## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> From what I recall, TivoPony said TiVo had a "bug fix release" (paraphrase) in the works. I would expect that update this spring.


Yes, I did say that. And it is still correct.

I'll apologize again to those who find that the bugs they're currently experiencing are severe. That has not been the case for the majority of customers, even those experiencing the same issue. Two people can have different views of the same situation. Everyone has their own definition of what is a showstopper, we have to go with our own and acknowledge that it may not match your personal definition.

The people who comment that there are always bugs in code are not 'making excuses' for anyone. There will always be bugs despite anyone's best efforts. And sometimes there are known bugs, bugs that beta has uncovered, and yet we have to ship with them and address them in the next release. We try to focus on the big bugs first, as you would expect.

So I'll give you some background, which will hopefully direct the discussion in a more positive direction.

The Fall release shipped when it did for a number of reasons. For one, we try not to release a major update between Thanksgiving and the Superbowl. That's the busiest time of the year by far for our support agents, throwing a new set of features out to customers on Christmas morning only exacerbates the number of calls we receive. Surprisingly, this is true even for bug fixes. People notice the software update and call. In this case we bent that rule and shipped an update to the Series3 platforms just after Thanksgiving, but before Christmas. There were bugs with identified fixes that we felt were too important to wait.

A second item forced our hand in timing this release, and that was the guide data used by all TiVo DVR's. The data format used by our provider changed at the end of October, they switched to a new method of identifying unique programs and episodes. Some of the effect could be mitigated within the service, which is why Series1 systems can continue to record reliably today without a software update. Some of the new functionality on our S2 and S3 platforms relies on handling these new program identifiers within the box...they had to have a software update in October in order to avoid a disruption in service. That was part of the .6 update.

There were other capabilities we'd committed to within the Fall release, such as Rhapsody and S3/S2 MRV. They drove the timing of the release to a lesser extent.

So, we did release software with known bugs. In fact, I haven't worked on a release in ten years at TiVo where we haven't. We subsequently got a release out to S3's that addressed some critical bugs that we considered showstoppers.

There is a new release, almost ready for delivery. No new features in this one, it's all about addressing bugs and notching performance up. We hoped to have it ready to roll the day following the Superbowl, but it's not quite done yet.

As always, I'll post a note to let everyone know when it is ready to go, and we do plan to put up a priority list at that time for those that want to move towards the front of the release schedule.

Again, thanks for your patience and your assistance as we've moved forward.

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks for the update. While intangible, this sort of communication is invaluable in conveying warm fuzzies to your customers. I certainly do appreciate the effort to keep us in the loop.


----------



## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

/Subscribing. Thanks TiVoPony.


----------



## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

Excellent, TivoPony. Thank you very much. As always we appreciate your input into the process. As bizzy said, its just nice to know our concerns are recognized and being addressed.


----------



## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

Does the new software include fixes for the FIOS pixelation issue?


----------



## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> If TiVo was missing recordings or shows were being lost from now playing or some other large error, then i would be with you. The kinds of bugs TiVo has out in production though are annoying but hardly keep the DVR features from functioning.


I don't know about you, but I consider often failing to flush the audio buffer when pausing to be a severe error. I pause because I want the TiVo to stop the show and cease making noise, not because I want to hear a continuous loop of the last half second of audio.

Even worse is that it throws off the audio sync when you resume. Luckily a press of the instant replay button will fix that, but god help anyone who didn't think to try it.

While I agree that they need to slow down and put some more thought (or perhaps testing) into the releases before they roll them out, it's not uncommon for software houses to release incremental patches to resolve issues of this nature in a fairly rapid manner. I'm sure they could roll out fixes for the most serious and annoying bugs within a couple of months unless they really are hanging on by a thread with only one or two engineers on the entire standalone project.

The audio buffer issue is especially egregious, since it's unlikely to touch any other areas of the software, thus making the QA process on it relatively easy. There are, by contrast, other issues that would require more far reaching changes to fix, and those I can understand TiVo taking their time on.

It is good to hear that we should have some relief in the relatively near future, at least.


----------



## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

jay_winter said:


> Are you really that naive? Do you actually think that everyone who experiences problems with their Tivo box is also complaining about it?
> And, if they do complain, do you think they all post their complaints >HERE< for your reading pleasure?
> And, if Tivo says "But, we've only had >THIS MANY< complaints!", do you believe them?
> Many of us --maybe even the vast majority-- have seen the evidence posted here that neither Tivo nor our cable provider is either willing or able to resolve the cablecard/pixelation issues. The best we can hope for the that the next software rev will fix it, so we wait, rather than wrestle with service providers who are only interested in collecting their monthly fees.
> ...


Let me ask you this. Are you really that naive to think that people who don't have problems come to this website and say, "Hey my TiVo is great!" No problems here?"

Well, in fact they do but take a look at the life of those threads. They don't stick around very long. That's because people in this partcular community seem to be only happy when they can continue to complain.

Is my TiVo bug free? No, I see little things but like Pony says when it comes to the big picture most of these bugs are so minor I don't give it a second thought. I've been happy with my S3 since day 1. Once and a while I see pixelation but that is nothing compared to the SA 8300 I had. I honestly thought that pixelation was normal HD until I got my S3.

Further to say that "the vast majority of us" see that neither cable or TiVo is willing to fix your pixelation problem is a complete fallicy. SCSIRAID, a respected member of this community will tell you that they worked and fixed his problem with the last update. So it's not that they are ignoring the issues.

And I also say to you this. Show me a better DVR then the S3. Go ahead, I'm waiting. You can't because it simply does not exist.

Thank you TiVo Pony for addressing so clearly and honestly the concerns of people like the one I just quoted.

And whoever that was that said nothing should be released with known bugs isn't living in the real world.


----------



## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

bizzy said:


> I will be charitable and assume that you simply lack common sense, instead of leaping to the conclusion that you have some motive for spreading this misinformation. Your tactics seem common to paid PR flacks who have been outed on customer forums in the past.


I'm going to be the one charitable by not coming down hard on you with insults like you just did to GoHokies. If you knew anything about GoHokies at all one thing you would realize is that he has more common sense then most of the people who are in this forum.

And it's not that he can't speak for himself. Believe me he can and would. But I guess insults are allowable for some and not for others.


----------



## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

TiVoPony said:


> Yes, I did say that. And it is still correct.


Thanks for the update, Pony.

As for the rest of you, since it seems we can't seem to have a objective, factual conversation with wild accusations of fanboyism and "must be a paid shill or have no common sense", I'm out.

Enjoy squabbling amongst yourselves.

Chimpware, welcome back. My life has been incomplete without your posts.


----------



## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> Thanks for the update, Pony.
> 
> As for the rest of you, since it seems we can't seem to have a objective, factual conversation with wild accusations of fanboyism and "must be a paid shill or have no common sense", I'm out.
> 
> ...


GH, thanks for the welcome. I am sure many feel your fact filled, helpful, insightful and "all knowing" posts about "their" issues are something they cannot wait to see more of. Keep up the good work, and grow the post count dude


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

menos said:


> and she stated that 80-90% of the users in the OKC market that have a TivoHD and SA M-card are having the problem. She has apparently done her research because she new exactly what the problem was, she even mentioned going to tivocommunity for the thread on the subject.


if 80% to 90% of Tivo HD customers overall were having this problem the forum would be lit up. Returns at Brick and Mortar would lead them to stop carrying the product, etc..

So I highly doubt that 80% or even 30% of all TiVo HDs are having this problem.

This leads me to believe that we have a bug that is involving Tivo and the cable system in OKC market. Sure 9x had bugs but not everything is related solely to buggy code but the unknowns of many different cable plants and signal strength and cable card firmware.

At the bottom line it is up to TiVo to create a stable product that the customer enjoys but to extrapolate that the TiVo HD has seriously bad code and is unstable due to small, incomplete data sets is just bad statistics.


----------



## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Chimpware said:


> GH, thanks for the welcome. I am sure many feel your fact filled, helpful, insightful and "all knowing" posts about "their" issues are something they cannot wait to see more of. Keep up the good work, and grow the post count dude


I'm sorry, I really shouldn't have included the rolleyes there, I meant it earlier.

I don't necessarily agree with you, but I do find your posts entertaining.


----------



## BOMOON (Dec 12, 2004)

TiVoPony said:


> As always, I'll post a note to let everyone know when it is ready to go, and we do plan to put up a priority list at that time for those that want to move towards the front of the release schedule.Pony


Thanks TiVoPony. This thread needed a reasoned response to those of us who are reporting problems, and you provided it. It was a welcome change.

I'm fairly new to all this, so I have no background in things like the "priority list" and current software versions.

What is that priority list and how does one get on it? e.g. my problem is audio/video freeze on both tuners when I'm recording 2 channels at once. Would something like that get me and/or anyone else having the same problems on the list?

If not, that's cool. I've seen folks reporting problems worse than mine - hence they really ought to go on the list ahead of someone like me.

On that topic, what is the current version of the software as of 02/12/2008 07:00pm supposed to be? According to the "System Information" menu I'm running

9.2a-01-2-648

Hey, thanks for taking the time to read this. I've gotta say that one area in which you folks excelled was the LAN part of it. In my case it's Wireless-G. I connected first try. Very impressive, for both of us!

Have a good one,
Big Al Mintaka


----------



## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

BOMOON said:


> What is that priority list and how does one get on it?


http://www.tivo.com/priority/


----------



## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Can we post the note for the priority update list in this thread? Otherwise many of us may never see it. I have to ask... Is the 30 second skip video lag problem fixed?


----------



## BOMOON (Dec 12, 2004)

greg_burns said:


> http://www.tivo.com/priority/


Thanks Greg! Got what I wanted and bookmarked it for future reference.

Have a good one,
Big Al Mintaka


----------



## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

:up::up::up:

I for one appreciate the efforts of the developers to help keep me watching TV the way I want to watch it. I really appreciate the update for MRV on the S3/Tivo HD boxes.

Thanks for all your efforts TivoPony.



TiVoPony said:


> Again, thanks for your patience and your assistance as we've moved forward.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


----------



## IHDB (Mar 9, 2007)

I'm looking forward to this 9.3!

If I had known that coming here and whineing and posting angry threads and belittleing people trying to have a rational debate would have made this come faster, i would have done so!


----------



## ldudek (Sep 2, 2007)

bareyb said:


> Can we post the note for the priority update list in this thread? Otherwise many of us may never see it. I have to ask... Is the 30 second skip video lag problem fixed?


Again, is there a lag? Absolutely. Does it bother me? No, not a bit. If they fix it this time cool, if not maybe next time.

My SA 8300 didn't have a lag. But then again my SA 8300 didn't have 30 sec skip and tick. It did have major pixelation, failed to record shows, recorded partial shows and was a real pos. But no, it didn't have the lag.


----------



## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

ldudek said:


> Again, is there a lag? Absolutely. Does it bother me? No, not a bit. If they fix it this time cool, if not maybe next time.


Hey it's either in there or it's not. Doesn't really matter what anyone thinks at this point <Shrug>.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Anyone ever truly seen any software released that wasn't buggy?

Hmmmm...

every version of Windows I have ever seen has had a few bugs.

Every version of DOS (Before windows) had bugs.

All versions of Unix had some bugs... So Did CP/M, Oh and so does various versions of Linux.

Even All the Apple OS software has had a bug or two.

Anyone buy a Blu-Ray player yet? Seems there are bugs in the Blu-Ray software/Firmware as well.

What about HD-DVD players.... Bugs? Sure are.... 

What about the Xbox 360? Playstation 2? Playstation 3? the Wii? The Gamecube... yep all buggy.

All I know is whoever things any software/firmware is ever relased bug free.. OR EVER WILL BE... is living in a dream world...

I love my TiVo's... they ain't perfect.. but they are still the best DVR out there. Do I want it to be better. Of course I do. Do I expect them to get better. Well of course I do.

Should we complain about the bugs? Of course we should, but we should do so in a constructive way. We should do so, to help those with the bugs find a solution & to TiVo to help them find a solution as well.

If the Bugs bother you so much, if the "issues" that TiVo's have "Bug" you.... Then DON"T buy a TiVo.... Sell your unit on Ebay... and take your business elsewhere.

We need contructive help & suggestions. Not "WHINERS" and "Cry babies"

Well thats my 2 cents....

TGC


----------



## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

TexasGrillChef said:


> A
> I need contructive help & suggestions.
> TGC


I have something constructive. Generally we like to use the double space as a way to denote a new thought or paragraph. I think what you have to say _is_ interesting but it would be much easier to read without all the random double spacing. Oh, and the word constructive has an "s" in it. Sorry. You set yourself up for that one...


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

TexasGrillChef said:


> All I know is whoever things any software/firmware is ever relased bug free.. OR EVER WILL BE... is living in a dream world...


They do release some types of software without any *known* bugs.
That is software; which if it fails will directly cause death.

Examples, some medical equipment and aircraft control software.

They also use expensive methods to reduce the likely hood of unknown bugs.

One method is to test and test and test.

Another, it the type of tools used to compile the code. The choice of Language is often very important to reduce unknown bugs.

[ C and C++ are not considered the best languages to reduce unknown bugs.]

The use of unit tests for each section of code is required in most all cases.

Tim S


----------



## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> Thanks for the update, Pony.
> 
> As for the rest of you, since it seems we can't seem to have a objective, factual conversation with wild accusations of fanboyism and "must be a paid shill or have no common sense", I'm out.
> 
> ...


We accept your apology, GoHokies! 

See what all this "whining" has accomplished -- an actual answer from a Tivo employee with the very information we were seeking. And look, just as we wanted, Tivo acknowledged the issues people are complaining about, allocated resources to address the bugs, and is distributing an interim update to fix them.

Don't you love a happy ending!!


----------



## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

KJW said:


> See what all this "whining" has accomplished -- an actual answer from a Tivo employee with the very information we were seeking. And look, just as we wanted, Tivo acknowledged the issues people are complaining about, allocated resources to address the bugs, and is distributing an interim update to fix them.


----------



## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

TiVoPony said:


> No new features in this one, it's all about addressing bugs and notching performance up.


Pony, is there still going to be a Spring update with new features, in addition to the above bug-fix update? Many people are hoping to see guide support for clear QAM (CableCARD-less) digital cable channels in the Spring update.

By the way, thanks a ton for your participation here, it is hugely appreciated.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

KJW said:


> We accept your apology, GoHokies!
> 
> See what all this "whining" has accomplished -- an actual answer from a Tivo employee with the very information we were seeking. And look, just as we wanted, Tivo acknowledged the issues people are complaining about, allocated resources to address the bugs, and is distributing an interim update to fix them.
> 
> Don't you love a happy ending!!


wow.

um the answer from Pony was basically what others have been telling you as well. Pony had the advantage of the inside specifics which were good to read about. Also pony always comes on the board and gives us a heads up a new release is happening soon. Really all the whining did was get him to spell out for you all the many issues that go into planning a release for a TiVo update.

and umm - this release was planned most likely before the last release went out the door and the next release is being planned for after this one already. Resources were allocated long before even the first thread on 9x bugs was created and this is the spring release - not an interim release.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> .....
> and umm - this release was planned most likely before the last release went out the door and the next release is being planned for after this one already. Resources were allocated long before even the first thread on 9x bugs was created and this is the spring release - not an interim release.


Correct. The decision was to release the code, let the chips fall where they may and fix it next spring. Right?

Same as happened with 8.1

Same as happened with 7.1

Same thing, different excuses.

Result - the code is crappy for half a year, every year.


----------



## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

RoyK said:


> Correct. The decision was to release the code, let the chips fall where they may and fix it next spring. Right?


That would be to be exactly what Pony said to me.

Exactly as I said - the timing was controlled by outside factors, so they had to do the best they could with the resources they had and get the best code out the door in the timeframe available. Fast and cheap, but not necessarily the best quality, just as I've been saying all along.

Folks can complain about releasing buggy code until the cows come home, but given the constraints that Pony talked about, can anyone suggest a better (realistic) course of action?

Also, as much as people want to crow about Pony announcement, does anyone think that the release schedule has changed one iota as a result of this thread?


----------



## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> That would be to be exactly what Pony said to me.
> 
> Exactly as I said - the timing was controlled by outside factors, so they had to do the best they could with the resources they had and get the best code out the door in the timeframe available. Fast and cheap, but not necessarily the best quality, just as I've been saying all along.
> 
> ...


Just can't control yourself can yah?

Well, telling us that "outside" factors is the cause of the issues is a joke. Tivo set their own timeline for introduction of new features, not some outside governing body they had no control over. This platform has been around for a long time now and the "new" features were predominantly ones available for years now in a different code base, so my input would be:

1) Don't overcommit if you can't deliver, particularly when you are charging a monthly service charge for a product (note I said product, because Tivo "Service" really is nothing more than guide updates, which are available for free on the net, and updated software without charge).
2) If stuck with an option of releasing more features, or tightening the core functionality, delay the new features. People will complain about this as well, but at least you are not failing to deliver on what people are already paying for, just disappointing expectations which is always a better course.

Other companies (Apple for example) seem to be able to release new products without significant software issues that impede core functionality (Ipod Touch, iPhone, Leopard). Do they have annoyances in initial release? Yes, but I never read anywhere about an iPod skipping while playing music. So the fact is it can be done, and profitably. If Tivo cannot do this with their current business model and staff they should restructure, not make excuses.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

TivoPony said changes in the format of guide data required software changes. It's not clear if the difficulties came from the adding the new features or from the change in code necessitated by the change in the format of the guide data.

I don't know if you didn't bother to read TivoPony's post or if you ignored the part of his post that doesn't support your point.

*Either way your post is nothing but garbage.*

I doubt tivo has the ability to force Tribune to delay the changes.



Chimpware said:


> Just can't control yourself can yah?
> 
> Well, telling us that "outside" factors is the cause of the issues is a joke. Tivo set their own timeline for introduction of new features, not some outside governing body they had no control over. This platform has been around for a long time now and the "new" features were predominantly ones available for years now in a different code base, so my input would be:
> 
> ...


----------



## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

GoHokies! said:


> That would be to be exactly what Pony said to me.
> 
> Exactly as I said - the timing was controlled by outside factors, so they had to do the best they could with the resources they had and get the best code out the door in the timeframe available. Fast and cheap, but not necessarily the best quality, just as I've been saying all along.
> 
> ...


Hey now, don't let reality affect your thinking. The funny thing is that TivoPony's post reminds me of the same way I talk to my kids throwing temper tantrums. I'm not sure what it is. Maybe the statement that he wants to move the discussion in a positive direction. It's that same "now that all of that negativity is out of your system, how about we do something else" kind of thing.

The fact is that the complaining here over the past 3 days hasn't changed the release schedule one bit.

And when it does come, as with all other prior releases, you'll have people coming here to complain about having to press two buttons instead of one, not having the ability to turn on or off certain features, etc. You'll have posters who say the problems with Tivo affect the majority of users based on one or two dozen people who compain over and over in a thread. And my personal favorite, you'll have the same posters who do virtually nothing but complain about Tivo continue to complain about Tivo (esp. the ones who have admitted in other threads that they can't stand Tivo and their products, and even who have said after complaining about a Tivo product that they don't own the Tivo product). They'll continue to throw around terms like "fanboy" and say such-and-such does nothing but defend Tivo (while they do virtually nothing but bash Tivo and miss the irony).



Chimpware said:


> Other companies (Apple for example) seem to be able to release new products without significant software issues that impede core functionality (Ipod Touch, iPhone, Leopard). Do they have annoyances in initial release? Yes, but I never read anywhere about an iPod skipping while playing music. So the fact is it can be done, and profitably. If Tivo cannot do this with their current business model and staff they should restructure, not make excuses.


iPods need to interface with a computer over a USB port. No one really screws up USB interfaces these days.

AppleTVs talk to iTunes over wired/wireless networks using protocols Apple designed and programmed into the devices.

The only thing close to Tivos in terms of deployment is the iPhone since it needs to talk to external non-Apple systems. But, the iPhones talk to base stations using standard and well-defined protocols that have been in place and supported for years. I'm not sure the iPhone would work perfectly if it had to be operable with 10,000 different cable system headends (where each headend can be configured differently and in some cases incorrectly) and needed to use CableCards that cable companies themselves can't install and initialize properly all the time.
__________________
My personal opinions are just that. Don't rely on anything I say - I could be Bill Gates' pool boy.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> I'm not sure what it is. Maybe the statement that he wants to move the discussion in a positive direction. It's that same "now that all of that negativity is out of your system, how about we do something else" kind of thing.
> ....


And a man who earns his living in Marketing is paid to do what?

Oh, and to be more accurate the complaints have been piling in since Oct 2, 2007 -- this time around.


----------



## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

RoyK said:


> Oh, and to be more accurate the complaints have been piling in since Oct 2, 2007 -- this time around.


No, to be accurate, the complaints about the S3 started in September 2006 when it was released. The complaints about the THD started when it was released. The complaints for each box continue after each update. The complaints will continue, some valid and some not. And I assume the complaints will always continue as long as there are folks who will post to no end about the glorious incompetence that forms the heart and soul of Tivo.
__________________
My personal opinions are just that. Don't rely on anything I say - I could be Bill Gates' pool boy.


----------



## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

lew said:


> TivoPony said changes in the format of guide data required software changes. It's not clear if the difficulties came from the adding the new features or from the change in code necessitated by the change in the format of the guide data.
> 
> I don't know if you didn't bother to read TivoPony's post or if you ignored the part of his post that doesn't support your point.
> 
> ...


Yeah I read it, did you? Possibly the rose colored glasses are an issue for you...

Excuses:
1. We like to release updates in that time window. - So what?
2. Guide Data Changed - How long did they know about this? Isn't this the supposed "service" I am paying for and Tivo cannot really control it? ...and then the best - It did not affect Series 1 units because of some mysterious difference between the implementation of features in Series 3 units.
3. Feature implementation dates set by them.

So we can all agree 1. and 3. are definitely in their control. If 2. is not, there is no way they did not have at least 6 months notice of this type of change that affects the core of operation and service for Tivo. If they did nto know ahead of time it is because they are not managing their vednor relationships properly.

So from my perspective all my points still apply.

I am so sick of the victim mentality people have. Nothing is their fault. Maybe Tivos parents split up when he was young also, or maybe he was molested as a small DVR. We should probably just name a syndrome for the functionality issues, that way it is not your Tivos fault, it just has a disease.


----------



## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

TexasAg said:


> No, to be accurate, the complaints about the S3 started in September 2006 when it was released. The complaints about the THD started when it was released. The complaints for each box continue after each update. The complaints will continue, some valid and some not. And I assume the complaints will always continue as long as there are folks who will post to no end about the glorious incompetence that forms the heart and soul of Tivo.


and the brilliant retorts will be there also with no facts, no information and no insight beyond, "Hey my Tivo works and I love it so shut up everyone else".


----------



## mchief (Sep 10, 2005)

And I will say again. "Get a life folks, its a fricking DVR and television" The world will not come to an end if your Tivo reboots. Mine has only done that 3 times in the past 2 months, usually when I tried to change channels from a tiling channel with signal strength problems. I know better now and let it sit for a few minutes and Tivo will usually get it's act together. Pix and sound drop outs are the domain of Comcast in my case. I have a cable card TV and using PIP can put TV on one screen and Tivo on the other and watch the exact same problems appear. 

I happen to think that the majority of Tivo owners are not experiencing serious problems and probably don't know about this forum. While I will not insult those of you having problems by saying you are not, the solution will hopefully come with the next bug release. I just hope it doesn't screw me up.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Absence the guide data issue tivo could have rolled back the software version until the issues were addressed. At a minimum they could have rolled back the software for the customers who had issues.

I don't know how much lead time tivo was given regarding the changes to the guide data format. I doubt tivo had the ability to ask Tribune to delay the change. The competing guide services are not as accurate as Tribune.

I'll agree tivo should have delayed a feature only rollout, if they were aware of some of the problems. I have no idea if the problems arised from the guide data changes or from the feature changes.



Chimpware said:


> Yeah I read it, did you? Possibly the rose colored glasses are an issue for you...
> 
> Excuses:
> 1. We like to release updates in that time window. - So what?
> ...


----------



## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

Chimpware said:


> and the brilliant retorts will be there also with no facts, no information and no insight beyond, "Hey my Tivo works and I love it so shut up everyone else".


Just can't control yourself can yah?
(how's that for a briliant, useful retort)

Seriously, I think the problem is that some folks like GH and myself don't buy into the whole "there's a design flaw, 80% of Tivo users have a problem" posts. Most Tivo users are probably happy folks who don't have problems and who don't take the time to come here and say how great their Tivos are. And the only times I see "shut up it works" is when folks like you paraphrase other people saying that there isn't a design flaw or that most Tivos work fine.

There are real problems like Tivos rebooting and losing channels. Some of those problems are IMHO likely due to the cable providers doing something that the Tivos aren't expecting, so the Tivos reboot, remove channels, etc. I've always thought the S3 needed better error handling, ever since the first posts about "toxix HD channels" came out (even though it never affected me).

That said, there are several posters (including on this thread) whose idea of contribution is to repeat the mantra that Tivo is cheap, stupid, lazy, etc. in any and every situation. Do we have a name for anti-fanboy ("constantly whines about every little thing whether or not it affects him or her" is kinda long)?
__________________
My personal opinions are just that. Don't rely on anything I say - I could be Bill Gates' pool boy.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Chimpware said:


> 2) If stuck with an option of releasing more features, or tightening the core functionality, delay the new features. People will complain about this as well, but at least you are not failing to deliver on what people are already paying for, just disappointing expectations which is always a better course.


umm, TiVo signed agreements with third party vendors for some of those features. The third party vendors had to make marketing and capacity plans of their own. you do not just go back and tell them, Oh sorry you will be delayed 6 months. And TiVo needs the third party deals, no ifs and s or buts about that.

Also you missed that the guide data was changing in format and TiVo had to respond to that or the DVRs loose functiionality.

these were indeed outside forces that TiVo does not have total control over. Just the way the business world works and no amount of posting changes that reality.


----------



## logicman1 (Jan 10, 2008)

stahta01 said:


> They do release some types of software without any *known* bugs.
> That is software; which if it fails will directly cause death.
> 
> Examples, some medical equipment and aircraft control software...


There are plenty of documented cases of software failures in the systems to which you refer. I recall reading about an error in software used to control radiation therapy equipment that enabled an operator to leave the device in a state that allowed the next operator of the machine to inadvertantly deliver a fatal dose of radiation.

Disasters and software bugs typically manifest themselves after a series of inconsequential events occur in an unforseen sequence.


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

logicman1 said:


> There are plenty of documented cases of software failures in the systems to which you refer. I recall reading about an error in software used to control radiation therapy equipment that enabled an operator to leave the device in a state that allowed the next operator of the machine to inadvertantly deliver a fatal dose of radiation.
> 
> Disasters and software bugs typically manifest themselves after a series of inconsequential events occur in an unforseen sequence.


Yes, there were failures. Even after they tried very hard to prevent them.
But, I would guess there was no known bugs at time of release.

The TiVo can not be expected to release software without any known bugs; it is just a reality of the current society. The cost of fixing all known bugs is just too high for a device of the low level of importance of a DVR/PVR. The users have to chose who is doing a adequate job of providing the software and hardware to meet their needs.

Tim S


----------



## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Yawn...dead...horse... Is the priority sheet posted yet?


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

RoyK said:


> Correct. The decision was to release the code, let the chips fall where they may and fix it next spring. Right?
> 
> Same as happened with 8.1
> 
> ...


Exactly.

What Tivo needs to add to this update is the ability to refuse the installation of an update if the current one is 'bug free' and you don't want to take the chance that the new one musses things up, 
OR put in the ability to downgrade to the old software if the update proves too buggy.


----------



## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Chimpware said:


> Other companies (Apple for example) seem to be able to release new products without significant software issues that impede core functionality (Ipod Touch, iPhone, Leopard). Do they have annoyances in initial release? Yes, but I never read anywhere about an iPod skipping while playing music. So the fact is it can be done, and profitably.


You're talking about different orders of magnitude here. Looking at their results from last October, Apple has 80x the sales of TiVo and 14x the R&D expense (I'm surprised its only 14x). TiVo has 1.7M units in the field, Apple sold more Macs than that in the quarter not to mention 10M iPods, there are about 150M iPods in the field by now.

Also Apple software isn't that bug free. Leopard had lots of incompatibilities with third party software. That pretty much impedes a lot of core functionality, but in Apple's case the 3rd parties are more motivated to fix the incompatibilities.

You also obviously don't remember the early releases of the iPod which did have significant bugs, including skipping songs. Apple still ships lots of bugs, I'm surprised that more of them aren't more widely commented on. They also schedule a release to follow immediately on the heels of any major release, they just have the resources to do it faster.


TexasAg said:


> iPods need to interface with a computer over a USB port. No one really screws up USB interfaces these days.


Ha! tell that to the guy who does USB for iPods.


----------



## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

menos said:


> Just to offer a point to the debate.
> I am on Cox Cable in the OKC market. I am having the 'channels go black' problem. I have spoken with the Cable Card rep at Cox here in OKC (My brother-in-law works for Cox and he called her up), and she stated that 80-90% of the users in the OKC market that have a TivoHD and SA M-card are having the problem. She has apparently done her research because she new exactly what the problem was, she even mentioned going to tivocommunity for the thread on the subject.
> 
> My point... If the failure rate is 80-90% in Cox SA environments, overall that's a pretty darn high problem rate. Cox cable has about a 12-15% market share of all Cable customers. So give or take 12% of all TivoHD customers are on Cox Cable. So possibily 80% of those customers are having a problem with the channels going black. That equates to a possibility that at least 10% of ALL TivoHD customers are having this problem. That is incredible! And that is assuming that Cox customers with SA M-Cards are the only ones having this problem. If you take into account that customers of other cable providers may be suffering from the same problem, the percentage just goes up.
> ...


Just because 80-90% of the tivo users in that market are having problems doesn't prove that it's a tivo bug. It's still possible that it's a cable company configuration problem, or a cablecard bug. The data that you don't provide is how many mcards have been installed in other 3rd party devices, and how many of them are failing. I have to assume if there's a problem with the cards in their own boxes, they'd be quicker to fix - leaving the 3rd party devices at a lower priority.

Since there aren't that many current model tv's with cablecards, I assume most current cablecard installs are going into tivo boxes. Since boxes in the field most likely already have scards installed, mcards are mostly going into new devices.

The unfortunate part about tivo's cablecard products is that it depends on the cablecard functioning as it's supposed to, and a cable company providing their service within the cablecard specs. Neither of those things are guaranteed.

Also, your calculation assumes all of cox is using SA equipment, if that assumption isn't true, your calculated value goes down.


----------



## BOMOON (Dec 12, 2004)

Roderigo said:


> Just because 80-90% of the tivo users in that market are having problems doesn't prove that it's a tivo bug. It's still possible that it's a cable company configuration problem, or a cablecard bug.


I can corroborate on this uncertainty factor. My cable is Comcast. I've been trying to get the specs on the 2 cablecards without much luck so far. The setup and information menus show either "Card 1" "Card 2" or "SA Cablecard".

So if "SA Cablecard" can be believed (and if I have this right), the cards are Scientific Atlanta.

I have no other boxes in my system besides the S3. However the original supplied by Comcast was also a Scientific Atlanta device. That was the thing that got me so p'd off that I took the jump and bought the S3.

So I'm in that boat too. When something goes wrong, I can't always be sure if it's the cards, the S3, or the signals I'm getting from Comcast.

Have a good one,
Big Al Mintaka


----------



## willbot (Feb 14, 2008)

RoyK said:


> Result - the code is crappy for half a year, every year.


Still better than crappy code all year every year, just every other DVR that's copied Tivo.

If you dislike your Tivo so much, you're clearly ignorant of the world around your (of DVRs at least).


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

willbot said:


> Still better than crappy code all year every year, just every other DVR that's copied Tivo.
> 
> If you dislike your Tivo so much, you're clearly ignorant of the world around your (of DVRs at least).


1. I don't pay for other DVRs.
2. I have never said I dislike my TiVo. On the contrary I like it very much. But I pay my bill every month and I don't think its at all unreasonable to expect it to work the way I know its capable of working every month.

I believe that if people are willing to accept second rate without complaint then they certainly will get it.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

logicman1 said:


> Why do you say they *knowingly *release buggy code like it's a decision someone made? I've been writing code for over 36 years. No matter how thoroughly software is tested, it is impossible to release 100% bug free code. There are always situations that occur in the real world that are impossible to replicate during testing.


Witness Microsoft Vista - They have been writing code for a long time and still Microsoft cannot get it right. It makes me think that nobody really knows how to write bug free code.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

bizzy said:


> There are several threads on this forum, each with hundreds of posts, about the two or three crashing bugs Tivo shipped 9.2 with.


But you assume that those people know that it is the software. All I know is that in eight years of owning Tivo's I have never had one crash.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

bizzy said:


> Series 3 is randomly rebooting 270 posts
> 
> Tivo HD - All Video Vanishes 382 posts
> 
> I find your dismissive attitude somewhat offensive. I'm glad that you are happy with your Tivo, but there is a huge number of people who aren't.


Not huge at all, even 382 posts, WITH multiple posts by some cannot be concidered HUGE comapared to 4+ million Tivo's

PLUS, since everybody has the same software those people with issues are probably experiencing hard drive failure.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

RoyK said:


> Maybe by putting out bug free code that does what their customers expect it to do without crashing their equipment, locking up, and requiring frequent resets? Little things like that?


8+ years with Tivo. No crashing, locking up or resets required at all.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

KJW said:


> Customers are purchasing and paying every month for a machine that reboots randomly, loses video, and stutters, requiring a manual re-start to fix.


8+ years with Tivo and none of the things you have mentioned have happened to me.



KJW said:


> The machines are also sluggish to the point where you can't flip channels because it takes so long for a channel to load


A few seconds is too long?


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

ciucca said:


> They lost one sale I now of. I was going to buy another TIVOHD to replace the QIP6416 in my den, but now I'm not due to the pixelation issue, I'm having with the one in the family room. In fact I will probably never buying another Tivo.


I used to have that issue. Then I bought a new antenna and pointed it correctly. Issue gone.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

KJW said:


> it is unreasonable to expect patience from people who have paid, and are still paying monthly, for a machine that doesn't work as promised, if at all


8+ years with Tivo. Works great.



KJW said:


> how many people are complaining about tivo to friends and colleagues instead of praising it?


I recommend it to everybody.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

KJW said:


> but what good are all the extra features if its keeps crashing?


I have the same software as everybody else. Never experienced a crash in 8+ years..


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

menos said:


> she stated that 80-90% of the users in the OKC market that have a TivoHD and SA M-card are having the problem


May I point out two things. First, SHE wants you do use their DVR. Two, I really doubt she took the time to compile accurate statistics, or any statistics.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

wierdo said:


> I pause because I want the TiVo to stop the show and cease making noise, not because I want to hear a continuous loop of the last half second of audio.


8+ years of Tivo. Never had that happen even once.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

RoyK said:


> Result - the code is crappy for half a year, every year.


That is really odd. I have had Tivo for 8+ years and never missed a show I wanted to watch, WITHOUT commercials.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

lew said:


> tivo could have rolled back the software version until the issues were addressed. At a minimum they could have rolled back the software for the customers who had issues


The problem with this kind of thinking is that it assumes that it is a software problem even though you have not troubleshot the problem. If it was a software problem then everybody would be having it. When you assume you make an XXX out of you and me.

If more people watched TV with picture in picture, with one picture being direct to the TV and one going through the Tivo, then most likely they would see that the transient mess ups happen through the Tivo as well as directly to the TV. If they were wired that way.

In other words, I have read many people on here stating that they had the cable TV guy say that their signal measures good. However, these same people never stop to think that perhaps the cable TV feed may have had a glitch. Most cable companies get their channels supplied from many miles away and the switch to digital is unforgiving of glitches. Dropouts are the result. Analog was not like that.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

TexasAg said:


> Do we have a name for anti-fanboy ("constantly whines about every little thing whether or not it affects him or her" is kinda long)?


Take your pick:

Producers - (makes TV shows and hopes to sell said shows to Networks and make lots of money)

Networks (Hopes to make lots of money selling commercials at high rates to pay producers huge sums of money)

Network affiliates - (Hope to make money from local advertisers)

Advertisers (Hoping many people see their commercials, for which they paid huge sums of money)

Enter a device that skips commercials and you have to ask the question - Do some of these huge whinners and complainers fit into the above catagories?

I think we all know the answer.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

BOMOON said:


> When something goes wrong, I can't always be sure if it's the cards, the S3, or the signals I'm getting from Comcast.


So many posters who are so quick to blame Tivo fail to take that into consideration. I do not believe that all cable companies have figured out how to have reliable cable cards. Maybe they need to get them from a better manufacturer.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

very interesting coincidence that tv444's join date (2/16/08) is the same date as netsurfer's last post.........


----------



## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

tv444 said:


> 8+ years with Tivo. Works great.
> 
> I recommend it to everybody.


Thanks tv444. I really feel silly now. I mean a bunch of people are having problems, but I don't think we realized that your machine was working fine and that you were happy.

Mod, can we please close up this thread and every other thread that lists a complaint about Tivo? Apparently tv444 is happy, so that's good enough for me!!

Hey tv444, while I have you attention, my neighbor was complaining that his roof is leaking. Before he fixes it, I wanted to see if you are ok with your roof. I would hate to see him waste money if you are happy.
:up:


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

tv444 said:


> Maybe they need to get them from a better manufacturer.


Is there more than the big two, who makes cable cards?

Motorola and Scientific Atlanta

Tim S


----------



## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

RoyK said:


> very interesting coincidence that tv444's join date (2/16/08) is the same date as netsurfer's last post.........


Hey, something we can agree upon! 



KJW said:


> Thanks tv444. I really feel silly now. I mean a bunch of people are having problems, but I don't think we realized that your machine was working fine and that you were happy.
> 
> Mod, can we please close up this thread and every other thread that lists a complaint about Tivo? Apparently tv444 is happy, so that's good enough for me!!
> 
> ...


That's that concept you folks refer to as "sarcasm", right? 

Individual data points (regardless of the viewpoint) are equally worthless.

Clearly Tivo doesn't consider to be significantly more bug ridden than any of their other releases, since they're seemingly sticking to their "usual" release schedule, despite folks protests that 9.1 is the biggest pile of crap ever written.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> ...
> Clearly Tivo doesn't consider to be significantly more bug ridden than any of their other releases, since they're seemingly sticking to their "usual" release schedule, despite folks protests that 9.1 is the biggest pile of crap ever written.


Not so. Its no worse than 7.1 was. No better either. 7.1 was awful.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

GoHokies! said:


> ...despite folks protests that 9.1 is the biggest pile of crap ever written.


I remember the same thing being written when 8.x came out.
I was brand new to Tivo, and I can remember thinking, I'm glad I'm not experiencing that.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> despite folks protests that 9.1 is the biggest pile of crap ever written.


7.1 was the worst TiVo release in their history. They really set the bar high and haven't been able to top it since then


----------



## Jbrock (Dec 26, 2007)

Interesting discussion. While TV 444's comments may seem like fan boy excess, he has a point. I have never experienced any of the issues identified here. I have only had my S3 since January but have been using all features heavily and have not experienced these issues. If it is buggy software, it should happen with everyone all the time. The argument that issues may be related to other factors/service providers/hardware has to be considered. I bought other hardware at the same time and they all had more issues than the TiVo. Frankly the S3 is one of the most mature trouble-free pieces of hardware I have ever had. Not saying it is perfect and I may yet run into annoying issues. This thread has my attention and I have been looking for the glitches described. Good to be watchful.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

Jbrock said:


> Interesting discussion. While TV 444's comments may seem like fan boy excess, he has a point. I have never experienced any of the issues identified here. I have only had my S3 since January but have been using all features heavily and have not experienced these issues. If it is buggy software, it should happen with everyone all the time. The argument that issues may be related to other factors/service providers/hardware has to be considered. I bought other hardware at the same time and they all had more issues than the TiVo. Frankly the S3 is one of the most mature trouble-free pieces of hardware I have ever had. Not saying it is perfect and I may yet run into annoying issues. This thread has my attention and I have been looking for the glitches described. Good to be watchful.


The thing we need to remember is that the commercial skipping abilities have made a lot of enemies for Tivo. Those enemies are very wealthy TV content people. They can easily pay Joe Unemployed to sit here and post with multiple ID's with all sorts of horror stories about Tivo. Yet, they are not very smart. Many of the things they post about have never happened to me in 8+ years and I have the same software as everybody else.

So they are experiencing program source problems, cablecard problems or just making it up as they go. Not a Tivo problem.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

Let me put it another way. In 8+ years I have always been able to do the following.

1) Set up any recording my heart desires.
2) Watch my programs without commercials.
3) Now I can do it in HD.

Does not get any simpler than that.


----------



## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

tv444 said:


> Let me put it another way. In 8+ years I have always been able to do the following.
> 
> 1) Set up any recording my heart desires.
> 2) Watch my programs without commercials.
> ...


All true and I love my TiVo's as well but time moves on and now there are many DVR's. Streaming to multiple locations is available in the market place. A TiVo extender and streaming without copy cannot be ignored.

- Rich


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

RichB said:


> Streaming to multiple locations is available in the market place. A TiVo extender and streaming without copy cannot be ignored.
> 
> - Rich


Tivo has Multi Room viewing and Tivo to go and Tivo Comeback. What is your point?


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

RichB said:


> now there are many DVR's.
> 
> - Rich


Dish will soon be ordered to shut down 4+ million DVR's as per the original trial and the appeal, which recently ended. Come March 17, more details will be known. Once Tivo has that lawsuit under their belt, the other DVR manufacturers will suffer the same result. Pay Tivo or shut down the hard drive by erasing the software.


----------



## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

tv444 said:


> Tivo has Multi Room viewing and Tivo to go and Tivo Comeback. What is your point?


Streaming!

No copy to a local. Watch it without delay. DRM permits even cable recording to be streamed because no copy is made. Only the broadcast channels are available for copy on Comcast here in Mass.

Microsoft is selling Media Center and third parties are selling extenders that are end points only.

That is my point.

- Rich


----------



## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

tv444 said:


> Dish will soon be ordered to shut down 4+ million DVR's as per the original trial and the appeal, which recently ended. Come March 17, more details will be known. Once Tivo has that lawsuit under their belt, the other DVR manufacturers will suffer the same result. Pay Tivo or shut down the hard drive by erasing the software.


OK. So TiVo can shut down R&D and hire more lawyers to drive all the other DVRs out of business

- Rich


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

tv444 is almost certainly the troll netsurfer aka a bunch of other alias names. Don't feed him.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

RichB said:


> Streaming!
> 
> No copy to a local. Watch it without delay. DRM permits even cable recording to be streamed because no copy is made. Only the broadcast channels are available for copy on Comcast here in Mass.
> 
> ...


With Tivo Comeback I can stream from PC to Tivo. Just wait 30 seconds and HD content streams fine.

So you are saying that streaming solutions, with no copy, are desirable for people using Cable TV. I can most likely agree with that.

But how desirable is Media Center? How do you get content into it?


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

RichB said:


> OK. So TiVo can shut down R&D and hire more lawyers to drive all the other DVRs out of business
> 
> - Rich


I actually expect that after Dish pays Tivo 205 million that Tivo will do more research and development. Not being cash starved tends to do that.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

RoyK said:


> tv444 is almost certainly the troll netsurfer aka a bunch of other alias names. Don't feed him.


We are having a discussion. You do not have to read it. Care to contribute instead of going off topic?


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

stahta01 said:


> Is there more than the big two, who makes cable cards?
> 
> Motorola and Scientific Atlanta
> 
> Tim S


Not sure, but I have noticed from my reading that cable cards cause lots of problems. I think the industry is still trying to figure out cable cards.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

RoyK said:


> tv444 is almost certainly the troll netsurfer aka a bunch of other alias names. Don't feed him.


I should point out that this response comes under the heading of personal attacks and you can be banned for that. I will let it go this time.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

tv444 said:


> I should point out that this response comes under the heading of personal attacks and you can be banned for that.


Wow, a thread about 9.3 turns into a Dish/Echostar trial thread. If you are going to keep posting with different ids, you shouldn't make it so easy.


----------



## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

RichB said:


> Streaming!
> 
> No copy to a local. Watch it without delay. DRM permits even cable recording to be streamed because no copy is made. Only the broadcast channels are available for copy on Comcast here in Mass.
> 
> ...


Until an HD tivo can copy HD content at faster than real time I don't see how streaming would be possible without having to wait for a lot of buffering anyway, so you might as well just copy the program anyway. The only benifit that I could see in streaming is not having to delete the content when you are done.


----------



## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

JWThiers said:


> Until an HD tivo can copy HD content at faster than real time I don't see how streaming would be possible without having to wait for a lot of buffering anyway, so you might as well just copy the program anyway. The only benifit that I could see in streaming is not having to delete the content when you are done.


But thats the problem... for CCI-0x02 programming you CANT copy it. The only way around that appears to be to stream it or convince the cableco's to back off the copy protection.


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

JWThiers said:


> Until an HD tivo can copy HD content at faster than real time I don't see how streaming would be possible without having to wait for a lot of buffering


With my S3 getting its content from my PC all I do is wait 30-40 seconds and then I can watch a program with no buffering needed. Is the HD not cabable of that?


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

SCSIRAID said:


> But thats the problem... for CCI-0x02 programming you CANT copy it. The only way around that appears to be to stream it or convince the cableco's to back off the copy protection.


Since copying from or to the Tivo seems to be just a little faster than real time, wouldn't using component connections into a video capture card work well for getting content to the PC?


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

tv444 said:


> I should point out that this response comes under the heading of personal attacks and you can be banned for that. I will let it go this time.


I'm impressed! Not even a member for two wees and you know all of the rules.... unless.....


----------



## tv444 (Feb 16, 2008)

Adam1115 said:


> I'm impressed! Not even a member for two wees and you know all of the rules.... unless.....


Did you get a definitive answer during your hospital stay?


----------



## dschamis (Oct 8, 2001)

tv444 said:


> Did you get a definitive answer during your hospital stay?


I just popped over to this thread to see what the latest was on expected timing from TiVo on an update - obviously this thread has gotten exciting.

I'm not criticizing TiVo or anyone else, I'm just curious if there are any rumors, confirmed or not, as to when an update will be. Always good to see these things coming.

Thanks,

David


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

dschamis said:


> I'm not criticizing TiVo or anyone else, I'm just curious if there are any rumors, confirmed or not, as to when an update will be. Always good to see these things coming.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> David


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5974459#post5974459


----------



## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

tv444 said:


> With my S3 getting its content from my PC all I do is wait 30-40 seconds and then I can watch a program with no buffering needed. Is the HD not cabable of that?


I said Tivo HD not S-3.
Using the numbers from the sticky on MRV with s3 and HD Tivo, the worst case is THD to THD



> TiVoHD->TiVoHD
> 
> The TiVoHD can currently transfer recordings about half as fast as the Series3. MRV throughput (i.e. transfer speed) between two TivoHDs is up to 21Mbps under ideal conditions, and 12-15Mbps under typical viewing conditions.
> 
> At 12-15Mbps on a 100Mbps network, it is not possible to watch >15Mbps recordings from another TiVoHD without delay. High-definition recordings with lower bitrates, such as those made from FOX-HD, UHD, HBO-HD, SHO-HD, and STARZ-HD can generally be viewed without delay.


Add in an heavy network traffic and you transfer times may suffer. And if its wireless and another person is also trying to use the wireless, someone is going to suffer.

So in some situations you are right you should be able to wait 30 - 40 seconds and cruise along. But in other situations streaming just isn't realistic. Thats why I said what I said. If they could bump up the thru put and put in a gigabit ethernet controller and/or wireless N, but until that happens Streaming without copying just isn't realistic in most cases.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> tv444 is almost certainly the troll netsurfer aka a bunch of other alias names. Don't feed him.





tv444 said:


> I should point out that this response comes under the heading of personal attacks and you can be banned for that. I will let it go this time.





Adam1115 said:


> I'm impressed! Not even a member for two weeks and you know all of the rules.... unless.....





tv444 said:


> Did you get a definitive answer during your hospital stay?


clear troll behavior in that you invoke a rule and then break the self same rule within a few posts. No wonder you did not err..umm. report RoyK


----------



## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

Simple question amongst all this chatter..

What is the latest version currently running on the HD?

Mine has 9.2A


----------



## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

scsiguy72 said:


> Simple question amongst all this chatter..
> 
> What is the latest version currently running on the HD?
> 
> Mine has 9.2A


Thats the latest....


----------



## *hoosierdaddy* (Dec 5, 2007)

I would call daily (if not hourly) lockups with the HD model reason enough to hurry.



ZeoTiVo said:


> If TiVo was missing recordings or shows were being lost from now playing or some other large error, then i would be with you. The kinds of bugs TiVo has out in production though are annoying but hardly keep the DVR features from functioning.
> 
> The only real issues I have seen are system failures and severe slowdowns. The % of those are not high enough though to lay at the feet of buggy code only and certainly are multi-facted issues that simply can notbe tested for and completely prevented.
> 
> anyone with 2.5 years would see that, let along 25


----------



## demon (Nov 15, 2006)

stahta01 said:


> Is there more than the big two, who makes cable cards?
> 
> Motorola and Scientific Atlanta


I know NDS (a News Corp. subsidiary) made an S-Card for awhile; I think they may be out of production now, but far as I know, they're not making any M-Cards. So yeah, going forward it's just the two big guys.


----------



## adamt56 (Dec 29, 2007)

Hopefully it fixes the random re-boot issues when changing channels. Otherwise, it is back to TiVo with my current box.


----------



## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

adamt56 said:


> Hopefully it fixes the random re-boot issues when changing channels. Otherwise, it is back to TiVo with my current box.


The new software will not fix your problem. If it was the software everyone would have the same problem as you. Your hard drive is the problem. Bad sectors = corrupt data = reboot.


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

ON the random reboots issue, dont be so sure on the new version not helping. I can't say anything specific, but you need to wait for the new version before making decisions.

Tivo does read these forums and does fix issues on a regular basis.


----------



## [NG]Owner (Dec 19, 2006)

TiVoPony said:


> There is a new release, almost ready for delivery. No new features in this one, it's all about addressing bugs and notching performance up. We hoped to have it ready to roll the day following the Superbowl, but it's not quite done yet.
> 
> As always, I'll post a note to let everyone know when it is ready to go, and we do plan to put up a priority list at that time for those that want to move towards the front of the release schedule.
> 
> ...


Any update Pony? It's been about a month....

[NG]Owner


----------



## mikebridge (Sep 18, 2000)

[NG]Owner;6068419 said:


> Any update Pony? It's been about a month....
> 
> [NG]Owner


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=388147

i'd say soon, since it sounds like the random, testing the waters distribution was done, so the priority list should be up within 2 weeks.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I'll need to check my seven boxes to see if any of them updated to the new software.


----------



## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

mikebridge said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=388147
> 
> i'd say soon, since it sounds like the random, testing the waters distribution was done, so the priority list should be up within 2 weeks.


I think its funny that they are testing this update -- could the software be any worse than the pixelization, reboots and other problems people are experiencing now??


----------



## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

KJW said:


> ...could the software be any worse than the pixelization, reboots and other problems people are experiencing now??


Yes?


----------



## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

KJW said:


> I think its funny that they are testing this update -- could the software be any worse than the pixelization, reboots and other problems people are experiencing now??


oh yes.


----------



## HPD (Feb 25, 2008)

KJW said:


> I think its funny that they are testing this update -- could the software be any worse than the pixelization, reboots and other problems people are experiencing now??


Pixelization is caused by poor signal. I bought a better antenna and it went away.

Reboots are the result of hard drives going bad. Many people on these forums have blamed it on the software, but then they solve their problem when they replace their hard drive.

If the software was the problem, then we would all be experiencing reboots. Never had it happen to me in 8+ years of owning a Tivo's. Tivo software is awesome.


----------



## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

KJW said:


> I think its funny that they are testing this update -- could the software be any worse than the pixelization, reboots and other problems people are experiencing now??


They test every upgrade this way. It may not result in any immediate corrections (as evidenced in the past), but I for one am very glad that they take this extra step before putting it in the wild. :up:


----------



## substance12 (Feb 6, 2008)

HPD said:


> Pixelization is caused by poor signal. I bought a better antenna and it went away.
> 
> Reboots are the result of hard drives going bad. Many people on these forums have blamed it on the software, but then they solve their problem when they replace their hard drive.
> 
> If the software was the problem, then we would all be experiencing reboots. Never had it happen to me in 8+ years of owning a Tivo's. Tivo software is awesome.


not necessarily true. My tivoHD rebooted a few times when I first got it. And the problem went away when it upgraded the firmware. When I first run the guided setup, it did not upgrade itself. I believe it took a few tries to actually complete the firmware upgrade. There was another person on avsforum who had the exact same scenario as myself.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

KJW said:


> I think its funny that they are testing this update


All of TiVo's updates are done like this.


----------



## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

KJW said:


> I think its funny that they are testing this update --


You're making an assumption that those are the only thing this update will address, and that it's an easy fix.

There are so many variables in how our equipment is set up, the only way to get a clearer picture of causes and then if a fix works is to test it over a sampling of the user base, and this takes time.


----------



## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

substance12 said:


> not necessarily true. My tivoHD rebooted a few times when I first got it. And the problem went away when it upgraded the firmware. When I first run the guided setup, it did not upgrade itself. I believe it took a few tries to actually complete the firmware upgrade. There was another person on avsforum who had the exact same scenario as myself.


FYI, I have never heard of, an in the field, firmware upgrade for a Series 2, is this an Series 3/HD only thing? Or are you talking about the Operating System Upgrade?

Note, if it was a OS upgrade that fixed the issue; this might be a sign of a bad sectors on the hard drive. The TiVo reserves two separate blocks of sectors for the OS. It then switches between the two blocks for upgrades.

Every other software upgrade uses a different blocks of Hard Drive Sectors. This is why some people complain that a software upgrade caused the problem. And, with the next upgrade the problem goes away; but the one after that the problem comes back.

Tim S


----------



## substance12 (Feb 6, 2008)

stahta01 said:


> FYI, I have never heard of, an in the field, firmware upgrade for a Series 2, is this an Series 3/HD only thing? Or are you talking about the Operating System Upgrade?
> 
> Note, if it was a OS upgrade that fixed the issue; this might be a sign of a bad sectors on the hard drive. The TiVo reserves two separate blocks of sectors for the OS. It then switches between the two blocks for upgrades.
> 
> ...


I was referring to Series 3 firmware update. What you say makes sense to me... I had not heard that before. So, given my scenario... I have a bad sector. I believe I had 9.1 prior to updating. So therefore it wasn't 9.1 that was the problem, it was the sector in which 9.1 was install was bad.

So will 9.3 be installed on the same sector as 9.1 or will it choose a whole new one? what can I do to remedy this? buy a new HDD? when 9.3 comes out I'll be able to test this theory.


----------



## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

substance12 said:


> I was referring to Series 3 firmware update. What you say makes sense to me... I had not heard that before. So, given my scenario... I have a bad sector. I believe I had 9.1 prior to updating. So therefore it wasn't 9.1 that was the problem, it was the sector in which 9.1 was install was bad.
> 
> So will 9.3 be installed on the same sector as 9.1 or will it choose a whole new one? what can I do to remedy this? buy a new HDD? when 9.3 comes out I'll be able to test this theory.


Actually what you are referring to is a software upgrade...v8.x to v9.x, etc., not a firmware upgrade. The next upgrade will install itself in the alternate root partition than is currently being used.

If you have any bad sectors on your hard drive they can cause data corruption. TiVo's built in diagnostic programs called "kickstarts" may be able to resolve the issue. Click here for more info. However if there are I/O problems or faulty read/write heads in your hard drive, kickstarts will have no affect. You can test your hard drive's fitness by removing it, connecting it to a PC and using a program like Western Digital's Lifeguard Diagnostics.

In addition if you feel that the software upgrade has been corrupted (either by installation into a bad partition or other event) you can have TiVo download and re-install the software (which your TiVo is _currently _ using) to the opposite partition by implementing kickstart 52. (See the the link above).


----------



## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

richsadams said:


> In addition if you feel that the software upgrade has been corrupted (either by installation into a bad partition or other event) you can have TiVo download and re-install the software (which your TiVo is _currently _ using) to the opposite partition by implementing kickstart 52. (See the the link above).


KS 52 won't "download" the software anew. That was KS 56. (The one that doesn't work anymore. )

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5766857#post5766857


----------



## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

greg_burns said:


> KS 52 won't "download" the software anew. That was KS 56. (The one that doesn't work anymore. )
> 
> http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5766857#post5766857


Correct, KS56 no longer works, but AFAIK KS52 (as listed here) still works. The instructions originally came from TiVoJerry on the Tivo.com Help Fourm:



TiVoJerry said:


> One thing to keep in mind is to get a better explanation of "doesn't work". There have been incidents in the past where a software update is not able to successfully load the USB driver after the installation. In this case, the MAC address will not populate at all for any adapter. If this happens, a kickstart 52 will cause the software to reinstall and resolve the issue.


And on this post on this forum:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5621888#post5621888

Where he says:



TiVoJerry said:


> A few corrections:
> "52" reinstalls software, not "58".
> Neither "52" or "58" wil trigger a green screen.
> 
> ...


Something may have changed since that post, but again, AFAIK KS52 still causes a re-installation of the existing software (and as you've correctly noted, not the newest release...unless that's what's already on the box of course).


----------

