# Roamio OTA WiFi problem...



## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Have two Roamio OTA receivers. One is twenty feet from Centurylink ZyXel C1000Z DSL-Modem WiFi router and the other is 35 feet away. Both have been working OK on WiFi with 75-80 percent signal strength.

A few weeks ago the one farthest from the router wouldn't complete a program transfer from the Roamio closer to the router. Started transferring and then dropped during the process. Checked the WiFi signal and it showed 35-45 percent. Nothing in the home has changed and there are no devices that could cause interference. Everything was as it was but this Roamio won't grab a stronger signal.

Called TiVo and they said "WiFi is iffy use ethernet" which is not a convenient solution in my house. Changed WiFi channels in the router with no improvement. Four other WiFi devices within 5 feet of the problem Roamio all get 95-100 percent signal strength from the DSL-Modem WiFi router.

Moved the other Roamio OTA to the same location as the problem Roamio and WiFi signal is 75-85 percent from the same DSL-Modem WiFi router. Seems to me that the problem Roamio has a hardware problem and I should RMA it.

Bought an Apple Airport Express which allowed me to connect to the WiFi network and provide an ethernet connection for the Roamio and all is good. Symptom treated but disease not cured. I shouldn't have to spend $100 to make the WiFi on a Roamio OTA work.

Anyone had similar problems?


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

just4tivo said:


> Have two Roamio OTA receivers. One is twenty feet from Centurylink ZyXel C1000Z DSL-Modem WiFi router and the other is 35 feet away. Both have been working OK on WiFi with 75-80 percent signal strength.
> 
> A few weeks ago the one farthest from the router wouldn't complete a program transfer from the Roamio closer to the router. Started transferring and then dropped during the process. Checked the WiFi signal and it showed 35-45 percent. Nothing in the home has changed and there are no devices that could cause interference. Everything was as it was but this Roamio won't grab a stronger signal.
> 
> ...


Maybe. 
Had my Roamio connected to a linksys bridge.
Then replaced the router with a linksys wrt1200ac and still had problems.
I gave up on wifi and went hardwire route; no problems now... except the blue circles occasionally.

That said:
Have you tried rebooting the router, or rotating it?


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Teeps said:


> Maybe.
> Had my Roamio connected to a linksys bridge.
> Then replaced the router with a linksys wrt1200ac and still had problems.
> I gave up on wifi and went hardwire route; no problems now... except the blue circles occasionally.
> ...


Rebooted the router... replaced the router with another identical router... tried three other brand routers.

As I said "ethernet is not an option to this Roamio location in my house.

Problem Roamio OTA gets 35-40% WiFi signal to the router down the hall. Moved the other Roamio OTA (that connects fine) right next to the problem Roamio and it gets 75-85% WiFi signal to the same router down the hall.

iPhone, iPad, Blue-ray, TV, and Mac Mini (all within 10 feet of the problem Roamio) get 90-95% WiFi signal to the router down the hall.

The only way to get decent WiFi signal at the problem Roamio is to connect it with ethernet to the Apple Airport Express sitting next to it and use the Airport Express to extend the WiFi network from the router down the hall.

It's interesting that all the devices at the problem Roamio location will get 90-95% WiFi signal strength to the Apple Airport Express (sitting right there) but the problem Roamio only gets 50-65% WiFi signal strength to the Airport Express sitting right nest to it.

I'm a CNE so networking and WiFi don't present any mysteries to me. I deal with cheap, junk hardware often trying to get it to work... especially WiFi. I know how to troubleshoot it and I know poor quality hardware when I come across it. It peeves me when TiVo TS tells me "WiFi is iffy use etherent". They know the WiFi implementation in the Roamio is problematic and it could be fixed for a nickel or so per unit more in production. For some people hard wiring would be difficult and costly. WiFi has been a common feature in consumer electronics for quite a while and there's no excuse for it not working well in most installations. It costs a bit more to make WiFi work reliably than to tell customers that WiFi is iffy after they've paid for the box and that decision will cost them customers in the long run.

I appreciate that the TiVo Roamio OTA lets me cut the cord but I didn't expect the cord to be wrapped around my neck choking off my WiFi signal.

TiVo, Comcast, DirecTV, Dish... they all think that customers exist for their convenience and that really SUX.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

When I purchased a Roamio Basic last year, it would lose WiFi connection to the router once every few weeks or months (it was very irregular) in a small house. Called TiVo about it and after some troubleshooting, was told that it was a known irregularity with the specific (well-known) model of router provided by my DSL provider. An inconvenience but not a major issue, the solution being simply to restart the TiVo (or router) if I notice this (typically, if I get a message from the TiVo that program data is running low) and then all is good until the issue recurs. Assuming that the TiVo rep. was correct, I've just taken this as part of the TiVo's lesser WiFi abilities.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> When I purchased a Roamio Basic last year, it would lose WiFi connection to the router once every few weeks or months (it was very irregular) in a small house. Called TiVo about it and after some troubleshooting, was told that it was a known irregularity with the specific (well-known) model of router provided by my DSL provider. An inconvenience but not a major issue, the solution being simply to restart the TiVo (or router) if I notice this (typically, if I get a message from the TiVo that program data is running low) and then all is good until the issue recurs. Assuming that the TiVo rep. was correct, I've just taken this as part of the TiVo's lesser WiFi abilities.


The problem you have is not the router. It's the low quality WiFi chip with the most production tolerance from the great anonymous chip company who offers the cheapest chip TiVo could source for their board. It is a common problem and often resolved with a USB WiFi adapter with a quality chip.

In my instance restarting the problem Roamio, whether a soft, hard, or power off reset does not result in an improved WiFi signal.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

just4tivo said:


> In my instance restarting the problem Roamio, whether a soft, hard, or power off reset does not result in an improved WiFi signal.


The internal WiFi of a OTA/basic Roamio is so bad that with 100% signal strength, a tri-band dual core router (Netgear R8000), it still can not feed a Mini. So I don't try.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> The internal WiFi of a OTA/basic Roamio is so bad that with 100% signal strength, a tri-band dual core router (Netgear R8000), it still can not feed a Mini. So I don't try.


Agreed, but in my case to transfer recorded programs I have to try.

Since one Roamio OTA connects just fine I expect the other Roamio to do likewise


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

just4tivo said:


> Agreed, but in my case to transfer recorded programs I have to try.
> 
> Since one Roamio OTA connects just fine I expect the other Roamio to do likewise


I confess I have never tried that (TiVo to TiVo wireless). My one Roamio uses an ASUS EA-N66R bridge. My other Roamio is Ethernet to the router. From my PC, using Desktop, 100Mbps is normal. I also transfer to/from a Premiere that is also using a wireless bridge. Sorry, but all this bridging is expensive and surely not a solution. I just wanted to let you know that I'm in your camp. The internal wireless is pretty bad. I would go for a Bolt, but it will be a few years before I get near 4k.

Would Desktop be something that might interest you? It works for me on files under 3GB, but that's my problem. The free version is still around.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> I confess I have never tried that (TiVo to TiVo wireless). My one Roamio uses an ASUS EA-N66R bridge. My other Roamio is Ethernet to the router. From my PC, using Desktop, 100Mbps is normal. I also transfer to/from a Premiere that is also using a wireless bridge. Sorry, but all this bridging is expensive and surely not a solution. I just wanted to let you know that I'm in your camp. The internal wireless is pretty bad. I would go for a Bolt, but it will be a few years before I get near 4k.
> 
> Would Desktop be something that might interest you? It works for me on files under 3GB, but that's my problem. The free version is still around.


Desktop or TiVo to Tivo I still can't run an ethernet cable to the far (problem) TiVo. It has to be WiFi.

The fact that the other Roamio gets adequate WiFi signal strength sitting next to the problem Roamio (that doesn't) proves to me that my problem TiVo has a hardware problem.

Won't go to a Bolt cause it's an UGLY, stupid design and most likely has the same low quality WiFi chip in it that the Roamios have and harder to upsize the HD.

Guess I'll RMA the problem Roamio back to TiVo and take a chance on one of their exchange refurbs.
I have too much experience with exchange refurb(?) electronics to be looking forward to that nightmare.

I hate the idea of going back to DirecTV, especially after the AT&T takeover, but frankly TiVo ain't showing me much in hardware, software, or guide info that impresses me... and that's a real shame cause they could cash in big with cord cutters if they get their head out of their behinds.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

just4tivo said:


> Desktop or TiVo to Tivo I still can't run an ethernet cable to the far (problem) TiVo. It has to be WiFi.
> 
> The fact that the other Roamio gets adequate WiFi signal strength sitting next to the problem Roamio (that doesn't) proves to me that my problem TiVo has a hardware problem.


No arguments from me. Since tomorrow is freezing rain, here's what I'll do. I'll change both my basic Roamio boxes to wireless. Then I'll see how they work talking to each other. I will start with 2.4GHz, then 5GHz. One Roamio is 3 feet from the router, the other is on a different floor. I have never tried this. I know my Mini will be unhappy, but that just means a restart. It has been postulated that the internal internet output gets screwed when it's converted to wireless. TiVo spends a lot of time telling people to not use wireless. If they would spend the time to make it work there would be a bunch of happy people. But they make money selling MoCA adapters.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> Then I'll see how they work talking to each other.


just4tivo's comments would suggest documenting each Roamio's wireless signal at their current locations, then swapping locations and seeing if both your Roamio's register the same Wi-Fi signal strength for a given location. just4tivo's issue appears to be that the problem Roamio simply doesn't achieve the same reception as another Roamio in the identical location.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

just4tivo said:


> The problem you have is not the router. It's the low quality WiFi chip with the most production tolerance from the great anonymous chip company who offers the cheapest chip TiVo could source for their board. It is a common problem and often resolved with a USB WiFi adapter with a quality chip.


Oh, I assumed the issue was on TiVo's end, and not the router's.  And thanks for the interesting option there.


just4tivo said:


> Guess I'll RMA the problem Roamio back to TiVo and take a chance on one of their exchange refurbs.
> I have too much experience with exchange refurb(?) electronics to be looking forward to that nightmare.


Don't fear the process too much: I picked up a "refurb" Roamio OTA under TiVo's special for these in Nov./Dec., and as far as I can tell, mine is new--likewise for a "renewed" TiVo slide pro remote thrown into my deal.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> TiVo spends a lot of time telling people to not use wireless. If they would spend the time to make it work there would be a bunch of happy people.


^ +1.

And one might even ponder if this could result in increased sales, from those in homes without house-wide Ethernet/coaxial or where it is inconveniently placed. 


krkaufman said:


> just4tivo's comments would suggest documenting each Roamio's wireless signal at their current locations, then swapping locations and seeing if both your Roamio's register the same Wi-Fi signal strength for a given location. just4tivo's issue appears to be that the problem Roamio simply doesn't achieve the same reception as another Roamio in the identical location.


I've been wondering about this quality/consistency issue myself--would love to see the results. I've had my suspicions.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> If they would spend the time to make it work there would be a bunch of happy people. But they make money selling MoCA adapters.


It's not a matter of time it's a matter of cheap.

MoCA is not always an answer. If I can't get an ethernet cable to a Roamio I can't get an ethernet cable to a MoCA adapter or may not have coax where the MoCA could get ethernet. Before I rewire a house I'll dump TiVo.

Multitudes of companies make WiFi work well in very cost effective and highly competitively priced consumer electronics but apparently that is beyond the capability of TiVo cost analysis people who don't seem to care what they put in the box for the customer.

An excuse for TiVo WiFi working poorly is not a reason for TiVo WiFi working poorly.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Guess I'm not typing what I'm thinking...

Problem Roamio has poor signal strength whether sitting next to a WiFi access point or down the hallway from it.
Slightly better signal strength sitting next to WiFi access point than farther way but still poor.

Roamio that gets good signal gets good signal no matter where it is in the house and where the WiFi access point is.

Referencing a USB WiFi adapter was in the context of using one on a computer to resolve a built in WiFi problem.
No experience using one on a TiVo.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> And one might even ponder if this could result in increased sales, from those in homes without house-wide Ethernet/coaxial or where it is inconveniently placed.





just4tivo said:


> An excuse for TiVo WiFi working poorly is not a reason for TiVo WiFi working poorly.


just4tivo's complaint regarding basic wireless connectivity to support what TiVo says should be supported for a wireless-connected TiVo DVR (MRV/transfers, service connections, Internet streaming app access) is wholly reasonable, but it seems the problematic Roamio may simply have a worse-than-typical wireless adapter/chip. The TiVo support operator's attitude/opinion was also a problem.

That said, a general wireless solution supported by TiVo that could scale to support as many MRS clients as a wired Ethernet or MoCA network can is infeasible so long at TiVo has to develop a product that can handle the semi-ancient MPEG2 format, requiring up to 20+Mbps per stream.

So, with MRS capability out of reach, TiVo needs to use chips that can support non-MRS functions, and it seems one of just4tivo's Roamio's meets that requirement while the other doesn't. I'll be interested to hear if JoeKustra's tests reveal a similar inconsistency.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> Problem Roamio has poor signal strength whether sitting next to a WiFi access point or down the hallway from it. Slightly better signal strength sitting next to WiFi access point than farther way but still poor.
> 
> Roamio that gets good signal gets good signal no matter where it is in the house and where the WiFi access point is.


Right, so the following scenario, suggested earlier, for a pair of Roamios would seemingly test for the symptoms you've described, correct?


krkaufman said:


> just4tivo's comments would suggest documenting each Roamio's wireless signal at their current locations, then swapping locations and seeing if both your Roamio's register the same Wi-Fi signal strength for a given location. just4tivo's issue appears to be that the problem Roamio simply doesn't achieve the same reception as another Roamio in the identical location.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> MoCA is not always an answer. If I can't get an ethernet cable to a Roamio I can't get an ethernet cable to a MoCA adapter or may not have coax where the MoCA could get ethernet.


I understand your grievance with the problem Roamio (though my angst is directed more at the support person who incorrectly stated that you need to look at a wired connection for non-MRS functionality), but I just wanted to mention that the comment excerpt above, as I'm able to understand it, doesn't reflect how MoCA works or would be implemented.

'gist: Establishing a MoCA network would require a single location able to connect to your coax lines and via Ethernet to a LAN port on your router. From there you'd just need coax runs to any MoCA clients -- though you might need short Ethernet jumpers at any location where you need to use a MoCA adapter to network a MoCA-ignorant device.

Bottom line: Even if your whole setup can't be wired, any fixed locations that *can* be wired will lessen the burden for those devices lacking the option.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

krkaufman said:


> I understand your grievance with the problem Roamio (though my angst is directed more at the support person who incorrectly stated that you need to look at a wired connection for non-MRS functionality), but I just wanted to mention that the comment excerpt above, as I'm able to understand it, doesn't reflect how MoCA works or would be implemented.
> 
> 'gist: Establishing a MoCA network would require a single location able to connect to your coax lines and via Ethernet to a LAN port on your router. From there you'd just need coax runs to any MoCA clients -- though you might need short Ethernet jumpers at any location where you need to use a MoCA adapter to network a MoCA-ignorant device.
> 
> Bottom line: Even if your whole setup can't be wired, any fixed locations that *can* be wired will lessen the burden for those devices lacking the option.


Roamio that works fine on WiFi is across a hall and 20 feet or so from the room where the router is located.
Roamio that has WiFi problem is down a hall across two hallways about 30 feet or so from the room the router is located. OTA antennas are in each room where each Roamio is located so where would I find a place where the MoCA adapter would get coax and ethernet? WiFi is the easiest solution and TiVo includes that feature in the Roamio and it should work.

I've had an eye on TiVo for many years and was impressed. Now that I cut the cord and took the plunge I am underwhelmed by the hardware, support, and customer service that TiVo offers and judging by the current product offerings and the RIVO guide fiasco things will only get worse so maybe this WiFi problem is a blessing in disguise.

I'll put both Roamios on Craigslist and cut my losses.

Thanks all... and good luck


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

p.s. Putting focus on the latter case you mentioned...


just4tivo said:


> MoCA is not always an answer. If I can't get an ethernet cable to a Roamio I can't get an ethernet cable to a MoCA adapter* or may not have coax where the MoCA could get ethernet*.


I wanted to highlight that many TiVo users are working around the condition you describe above by creating an isolated MoCA network, with their TiVo devices all connected to the same MoCA segment; however, rather than the typical scenario where this MoCA network is linked via an Ethernet connection to the router's LAN, users have instead creatively opted for a lower bandwidth wireless or Powerline connection to link the MoCA segment to the router LAN.

This workaround proves quite functional because it meets TiVo's base requirement: a wired network connection for MRS (Multi-Room Streaming) functionality. All MRS traffic would flow over the MoCA segment, as required, while only less demanding TiVo service connection and Internet streaming app traffic would flow over the lower-bandwidth wireless or Powerline link.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

krkaufman said:


> p.s. Putting focus on the latter case you mentioned...
> 
> I wanted to highlight that many TiVo users are working around the condition you describe above by creating an isolated MoCA network, with their TiVo devices all connected to the same MoCA segment; however, rather than the typical scenario where this MoCA network is linked via an Ethernet connection to the router's LAN, users have instead creatively opted for a lower bandwidth wireless or Powerline connection to link the MoCA segment to the router LAN.
> 
> ...


That's the answer... spend more money and do more work because TiVo WiFi doesn't work. I already bought two Roamios and extended warranty so I'm not inclined to spend more money and do more work so I can kludge the problem Roamio into working.

I appreciate all the suggestions but if I could easily run coax from the two Roamio locations to the room where the router is I'd have already run ethernet making a MoCA network unnecessary.

The fact is that I know the limitations I had to work around in my home and understand networking and WiFi.

I bought two Roamios based on TiVo's prominent representation that WiFi is supported in that platform... until it's not.

Too bad... another company that makes money despite their best efforts not to.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> WiFi is the easiest solution and TiVo includes that feature in the Roamio and it should work.


Find where I've argued against that point and I'll issue a correction. To the contrary, I've commented that you have a problematic Roamio; and I'm in agreement with your statement in the OP:


just4tivo said:


> Seems to me that the problem Roamio has a hardware problem and I should RMA it.


Manufacturing defects occur; typically, Roamios are capable of supporting what they've been designed to support, basically all functionality short of MRS.

As for MoCA options...


just4tivo said:


> OTA antennas are in each room where each Roamio is located so where would I find a place where the MoCA adapter would get coax and ethernet?


The above comment is more detailed than any past mentions of the non-wireless part of the setup, but still doesn't preclude MoCA since you haven't explicitly stated that either room lacks coax wall outlets. Exclude that and, yeah, you're looking at a wiring project hurdle.

Anyway, not sure why the attitude popped-up in that last post since we're just other users trying to help out. I understand that you've got a dud wireless product on your hands, and it should be RMA'd for that reason; but using wireless would be sub-optimal, let's say, if a wired connection were possible.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> That's the answer... spend more money and do more work because TiVo WiFi doesn't work.


Am I missing something? How have we gone from a TiVo Roamio with a bad Wi-Fi chip, to "TiVO WiFi doesn't work"? TiVo wireless typically works for what it is designed to do.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> Actually, I could make a nice small claims case regarding TiVo's false misrepresentation of the Roamio's WiFi capability and lack of support for that feature and recover the full cost of both Roamios.


You'll probably want to delete any posts where you say something along the lines of ...


just4tivo said:


> ... the problem Roamio has a hardware problem and I should RMA it.


As you said, good luck.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

@krkaufman

Less of an attitude than frustration.

I've already thanked everyone for suggestions and do so again.

I expected all to understand that no coax in room meant no coax outlet on wall just as no ethernet in either Roamio location meant no ethernet outlet on wall. I expected that OTA antennas at each location meant no coax or outlets on the wall at either Roamio location. I realize that is hard to see looking at you monitor and my fault for not explaining in more detail.

More than likely my problem Roamio has a hardware problem, and I could RMA it hoping for better WiFi in the replacement Roamio, but TiVo admitting to me that "WiFi is iffy" tells me that they know their WiFi is problematic and not to expect better signal strength in another Roamio. I don't want to play Groundhog Day reliving more WiFi problems down the road.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> I expected all to understand that no coax in room meant no coax outlet on wall


Ok, except highlight for me where in any of your posts had you said that each Roamio had a direct-connected antenna, and that no other coax existed in the rooms? You fully covered the Ethernet side, but had said word zero regarding what coax was available in the rooms or how your Roamios were connecting to an OTA signal -- leaving open the possibility that the Roamios were both connected to a central antenna.

Aside from your initial declaration that you had two Roamio OTAs, as far as I can tell, this was your first mention of the actual coax connectivity...


just4tivo said:


> OTA antennas are in each room where each Roamio is located so where would I find a place where the MoCA adapter would get coax and ethernet?


... and it would be willfully ignorant from a troubleshooting standpoint to assume that direct-connected antennas automatically excluded the possibility of coax wall outlets connecting to a past cable system-based coax plant.



just4tivo said:


> Guess I'm not typing what I'm thinking...


Quite possibly.



just4tivo said:


> but TiVo admitting to me that "WiFi is iffy"


Someone in their low-level support making such a statement has little bearing on the actual technology, but it's certainly a data point in an argument against recommending TiVo as a world class support organization. TiVo Support is seemingly awful, based on the problems they're unable to solve (or actually create) that TCF members help fix.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> p.s. Putting focus on the latter case you mentioned...
> 
> I wanted to highlight that many TiVo users are working around the condition you describe above by creating an isolated MoCA network, with their TiVo devices all connected to the same MoCA segment; however, rather than the typical scenario where this MoCA network is linked via an Ethernet connection to the router's LAN, users have instead creatively opted for a lower bandwidth wireless or Powerline connection to link the MoCA segment to the router LAN.
> 
> This workaround proves quite functional because it meets TiVo's base requirement: a wired network connection for MRS (Multi-Room Streaming) functionality. All MRS traffic would flow over the MoCA segment, as required, while only less demanding TiVo service connection and Internet streaming app traffic would flow over the lower-bandwidth wireless or Powerline link.


When I have the energy for potential returns, I look forward to trying out a Powerline network to connect Tivo units and a router, to see if I might have luck.

In the meanwhile, I'm content enough with standalone TiVo units--deciding that this was safer than a TiVo-Minis configuration for now, in the absence of convenient Ethernet and coaxial wiring.

krkaufman, am I correct that in the "isolated MoCA" scenario, the TiVo sets simply are connected to a house's coaxial cabling without more (although, if the TiVo sets don't have MoCA baked into them, such as the Roamio OTA and Basic, a MoCA adapter would need to be used between the TiVo and the coaxial cabling)--without any Ethernet or coaxial connection to a router. And then, to provide connection to the router, either a TiVo-router wireless connection is relied on, or a TiVo-router Powerline connection. I had raised this possibility a few months ago and you and I even had discussed it a bit, I think. Again, would be interesting to experiment with this, when one, again, has the energy for the possible return of the connecting equipment, should it not work out.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> This workaround proves quite functional because it meets TiVo's base requirement: a wired network connection for MRS (Multi-Room Streaming) functionality. All MRS traffic would flow over the MoCA segment, as required, while only less demanding TiVo service connection and Internet streaming app traffic would flow over the lower-bandwidth wireless or Powerline link.


Except that, TiVo states that for MRS, "All TiVo devices must connect to broadband Internet with a wired or MoCA connection." And so, if--and a big "if" here  --I'm understanding the "isolated MoCA" scenario correctly, it doesn't precisely meet this requirement.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> am I correct that in the "isolated MoCA" scenario, the TiVo sets simply are connected to a house's coaxial cabling without more (although, if the TiVo sets don't have MoCA baked into them, such as the Roamio OTA and Basic, a MoCA adapter would need to be used between the TiVo and the coaxial cabling)--without any Ethernet or coaxial connection to a router.


That's the premise; the high bandwidth wired connection would exist between all the TiVo devices as required for MRS.



Mikeguy said:


> And then, to provide connection to the router, either a TiVo-router wireless connection is relied on, or a TiVo-router Powerline connection.


Not exactly sure what you mean by "TiVo-router," above; maybe "MoCA-to-router" would be more accurate? The MoCA segment would simply be bridged to either wireless or Powerline by connecting a MoCA adapter via an Ethernet cable to either a wireless bridge or Powerline adapter -- which would be connected to an existing wireless access point or Powerline adapter on the router's Ethernet LAN. (That said, it's possible that a MoCA-capable DVR could provide the MoCA bridging function, rather than using a standalone MoCA adapter -- which may be what you meant by "TiVO-router.")

This wireless or Powerline segment doesn't need to meet the same bandwidth requirements for MRS traffic, but you'd need to make sure it can handle whatever bandwidth you expect to throw at it.

p.s. I didn't bother adding it earlier, but if a TiVo Stream is part of the setup, I'd also recommend finding a way to attach the Stream to this isolated wired network, as the Stream utilizes MRS and you wouldn't want to be sending the raw video file to the Stream over the lower bandwidth wireless or Powerline connection -- whereas sending the converted video would require less bandwidth.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Except that, TiVo states that for MRS, "All TiVo devices must connect to broadband Internet with a wired or MoCA connection." And so, if--and a big "if" here  --I'm understanding the "isolated MoCA" scenario correctly, it doesn't precisely meet this requirement.


Not strictly, but functionally -- and tacitly confirmed by Ira Bahr during his Community Quick Chat back in 2015, here.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> Not strictly, but functionally -- and tacitly confirmed by Ira Bahr during his Community Quick Chat back in 2015, here.


Cool--and interesting link and comment there.

In the words of Henry Higgins, I think I've got it. And so, if I have it right and looking at it from above, the heavy lifting of the transfer of show data is being accomplished over the coaxial/MoCA network, while the "lighter" lifting work of actually directing the traffic is coming over the wireless or Powerline connection (along with software updates, Guide data, etc.).

And am I correct in assuming that, in the hierarchy of connections, the above hybrid would be preferable over a totally Powerline'd network?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> Not exactly sure what you mean by "TiVo-router," above; maybe "MoCA-to-router" would be more accurate? The MoCA segment would simply be bridged to either wireless or Powerline by connecting a MoCA adapter via an Ethernet cable to either a wireless bridge or Powerline adapter -- which would be connected to an existing wireless access point or Powerline adapter on the router's Ethernet LAN. (That said, it's possible that a MoCA-capable DVR could provide the MoCA bridging function, rather than using a standalone MoCA adapter -- which may be what you meant by "TiVO-router.").


And thank you for that clarification and correction: and so the MoCA segment itself needs to be "tied" directly to the router (wirelessly or via Powerline)--one simply can't have the coaxial/MoCA segment between TiVo boxes and then separately have one's regular wireless connection between TiVo and router.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> And am I correct in assuming that, in the hierarchy of connections, the above hybrid would be preferable over a totally Powerline'd network?


That is an understatement.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> That is an understatement.


And likewise, between router and MoCA connection: preferable for a Powerline connection over wireless, or less important?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> one simply can't have the coaxial/MoCA segment between TiVo boxes and then separately have one's regular wireless connection between TiVo and router.


Correct, primarily because as someone else recently pointed-out, a TiVo device can't be configured for MoCA or Ethernet and simultaneously configured for wireless -- and the TiVo devices will necessarily be configured for MoCA or Ethernet, depending on whether a given device includes built-in MoCA support or not.

Though, if you read the Ira Bahr comment, that's exactly what he said they were looking into for the BOLT... allowing the BOLT's built-in wireless to be used as a bridge for connecting a MoCA network back to the router, rather than having to connect via Ethernet. But I wouldn't suggest waiting around for that to happen.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> And likewise, between router and MoCA connection: preferable for a Powerline connection over wireless, or less important?


Not sure what you're asking there. If you're looking for a judgement as to whether a Powerline or wireless connection would be preferable for the link between the MoCA segment and the router, it will depend on the specific Powerline or wireless gear selected and the environment.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> Not sure what you're asking there. If you're looking for a judgement as to whether a Powerline or wireless connection would be preferable for the link between the MoCA segment and the router, it will depend on the specific Powerline or wireless gear selected and the environment.


Got it--if far off from the router such that the wireless connection is weaker, a Powerline connection could be preferable (assuming Powerline works well in one's home and wiring); and if Powerline is "iffier," a wireless connection could be more profitable. 


krkaufman said:


> Correct, primarily because as someone else recently pointed-out, a TiVo device can't be configured for MoCA or Ethernet and simultaneously configured for wireless -- and the TiVo devices will necessarily be configured for MoCA or Ethernet, depending on whether a given device includes built-in MoCA support or not.
> 
> Though, if you read the Ira Bahr comment, that's exactly what he said they were looking into for the BOLT... allowing the BOLT's built-in wireless to be used as a bridge for connecting a MoCA network back to the router, rather than having to connect via Ethernet. But I wouldn't suggest waiting around for that to happen.


What Ira Bahr was discussing was exactly what I had been envisioning originally, and I couldn't conceptualize how the set-up process on the box would go, in that wired+wireless setup. And so actually, I guess, I wasn't as much wrong as simply early. 

Thanks, again, for clarifying matters and helping set my neural pathways straight. It's enough to make one throw up one's hands, go away for the weekend, and have an electrician come in while one is away and wire the house for Ethernet throughout.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> And am I correct in assuming that, in the hierarchy of connections, the above hybrid would be preferable over a totally Powerline'd network?


See also: Connection to Roamio always dropping


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Wireless testing:
2.4GHz on two basic Roamio boxes. Signal level 100% on both boxes
Transfer file: 4.5 Mb/s
MRV: not permitted

5GHz on both boxes. Signal 100% on one box, 85% on box one floor above router.
Transfer file: 46 Mb/s
MRV: never made it over 2 minutes before getting "network too slow" message.

One Roamio wired to Router, one using wireless bridge. Transfer 93 Mb/s, MRV just fine.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> Wireless testing:
> 2.4GHz on two basic Roamio boxes. Signal level 100% on both boxes
> Transfer file: 4.5 Mb/s
> *MRV: not permitted*
> ...


*MRV: not permitted*
*MRV: never made it over 2 minutes before getting "network too slow" message.*

What I expected with a clarification... I'm simply trying to TRANSFER (TiVo button-my shows-devices-(other) Roamio-shows-recorded program-transfer) a recorded program from one Roamio to another not VIEW a recording that's on one Roamio from another Roamio.

The connection is too slow to VIEW but transferring has worked fine with both Roamios connected over over WiFi with sufficient signal strength till the problem Roamio aquirred signal strength problems.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

just4tivo said:


> What I expected with a clarification... I'm simply trying to TRANSFER (TiVo button-my shows-devices-(other) Roamio-shows-recorded program-transfer) a recorded program from one Roamio to another not VIEW a recording that's on one Roamio from another Roamio.
> 
> The connection is too slow to VIEW but transferring has worked fine with both Roamios connected over over WiFi with sufficient signal strength till the problem Roamio aquirred signal strength problems.


I know. I was adding the extra information in case it stops someone else from wasting their time. I could live with the 46 Mb/s rate at 5GHz, but not the 2.4GHz rate. I do wonder if two Pro or Plus boxes with their Gb ports would be faster with wireless. Maybe I'll run out and buy a Bolt+ (big joke).

My 2.4GHz was on channel 1, the 5GHz on channel 149. Using inSSIDer both channels are empty since I live in a semi-rural area, so no interference.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> *MRV: not permitted*
> *MRV: never made it over 2 minutes before getting "network too slow" message.*
> 
> What I expected with a clarification... I'm simply trying to TRANSFER ...


That's what JoeKustra was testing, the ability to transfer programs.

"MRV" is Multi-Room Viewing, the TiVo marketing name given to the technology behind the transfers you're trying to do. The ability to instantly stream between TiVos without transferring is "MRS," Multi-Room Streaming.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

just4tivo said:


> Problem Roamio OTA gets 35-40% WiFi signal to the router down the hall. Moved the other Roamio OTA (that connects fine) right next to the problem Roamio and it gets 75-85% WiFi signal to the same router down the hall.


I think the Roamio OTAs are using WLU5054 which should be a Broadcom chipset. Usually Broadcom isn't bottom of the bin.

Have you tried attaching external antennaes to the U.FL-R connectors pictured?
https://apps.fcc.gov/eas/GetApplicationAttachment.html?id=1940909


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

krkaufman said:


> That's what JoeKustra was testing, the ability to transfer programs.
> 
> "MRV" is Multi-Room Viewing, the TiVo marketing name given to the technology behind the transfers you're trying to do. The ability to instantly stream between TiVos without transferring is "MRS," Multi-Room Streaming.


The OP is just trying to copy files between units. I just added the MRV stuff since it was easy to test, and I already know it wouldn't work to a Mini from a wireless host. But, when I think about it, why is the signal level so important anyhow? I can understand when the signal level is measuring OTA or cable signals, since they can get killed by noise if they are too low. But isn't WiFi sort of like cell phones? They seem to work ok with "1 bar" and tell you if a signal isn't detected. But, while they can cut in & out with obstructions, the level isn't too important. Just some random thoughts.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

I think according to the specs if the signal/noise is poor, it drops to 11Mbps. Lower signal makes the noise part more prominent but if things are clean, it should still be able to operate at higher speeds.

The "typos" are not mine, they are taken directly from Askey's FCC filing.

This device is a Wireless LAN module, which operates in 2.4GHz & 5.0GHz bands; the maximum data rate could be up to 300Mbps which OFDM technique. If the signal to noise radio is too poor which could not support 300Mbps, the 11Mbps data rate with DSSS technique will be applied.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> I just added the MRV stuff


Wait, by "MRV stuff" did you mean you tried connecting from a TiVo Mini? MRV *is* the show transfer functionality; MRS is the functionality for streaming, both between DVRs and to TiVo Minis (and to a TiVo Stream for video reencoding, as well).

_"Multi-Room Viewing lets you transfer programs from one TiVo DVR to another." _(link)​
I'm thinking your test results should have read differently...


JoeKustra said:


> Wireless testing:
> 2.4GHz on two basic Roamio boxes. Signal level 100% on both boxes
> MRV: Transfer file: 4.5 Mb/s
> MRS: not permitted
> ...


p.s. Would have been interesting to have that one in-between test, with one Roamio wired and the other using the Roamio's built-in wireless. But you've proved the point that two Roamios with functioning wireless interfaces are able to deliver the functionality marketed by TiVo, MRV-level interaction. Wired connections would be needed for MRS capability.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

krkaufman said:


> Wait, by "MRV stuff" did you mean you tried connecting from a TiVo Mini? MRV *is* the show transfer functionality; MRS is the functionality for streaming, both between DVRs and to TiVo Minis.
> 
> I'm thinking your test results should have read differently...
> 
> p.s. Would have been interesting to have that one in-between test, with one Roamio wired and the other using the Roamio's built-in wireless. But you've proved the point that two Roamios with functioning wireless interfaces are able to deliver the functionality marketed by TiVo, MRV-level interaction. Wired connections would be needed for MRS capability.


I think you're right. I should not start so early. I am calling MRV & MRS the same if watching on a host or Mini. I'll stop that.

Bottom line: 2.4Ghz file transfer was too slow to be useful. The 5GHz connection is 1/2 what I get with a wireless 802.11a bridge, but I could live with it. My router has three bands and during the test no other load was put on the router. Usually only my printer uses 2.4GHz. Sometimes I plug in a TiVo wireless N adapter, but not today.

Usually the only time I transfer a program is to save it to a Premiere. That runs about 60Mbps and also uses a wireless extender in bridge mode.


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## wtkflhn (May 12, 2006)

just4tivo said:


> Have two Roamio OTA receivers. One is twenty feet from Centurylink ZyXel C1000Z DSL-Modem WiFi router and the other is 35 feet away. Both have been working OK on WiFi with 75-80 percent signal strength.
> 
> A few weeks ago the one farthest from the router wouldn't complete a program transfer from the Roamio closer to the router. Started transferring and then dropped during the process. Checked the WiFi signal and it showed 35-45 percent. Nothing in the home has changed and there are no devices that could cause interference. Everything was as it was but this Roamio won't grab a stronger signal.
> 
> ...


 I did. When I first got my Roaioi pro, it replaced at TIVO S3 in my living room that was working WIFI just fine. The Roamio Pro always had issues with wifi. TIVO TS told me the same thing that ether net was better. I didn't have trouble with service connections, but NETFLIX would drop frequently. I finally decided to get 2 15ft rj45 cords back to back and get to the router that way. It did solve my problem. The old S3 had a much better signal reading of 75 to 80% most of the time. The ROAMIO Pro never had much over 50%. I don't think that this built in wifi it has is any good. But that just my opinon.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

wtkflhn said:


> I did. When I first got my Roaioi pro, it replaced at TIVO S3 in my living room that was working WIFI just fine. The Roamio Pro always had issues with wifi.


If you ever have the box opened up, try fiddling with the external antenna wires to see if it makes a difference. IIRC the Roamio OTAs just used the onboard printed antenna with connections for external while the Plus/Pro actually had external antennae connected (external to the board, not to the tivo unit)


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Continuing to try to resolve my problem with one of two Roamio OTA boxes there seems to be a parallel or coincidental problem to the C423 error code generated when trying to connect to the other Roamio to transfer a recorded program. When that error is generated the other Roamio is listed in problem Roamio's DEVICES but grayed out.

I thought this was a result of poor WiFi signal but a supervisor @ TiVo told me that intermittently losing WiFi network connection is an entirely different and less common problem they know of. The connection will drop and the Tivo can't be pinged. It thinks it's connected but it's not. Resetting the box will return the connection and sometimes the connection will re-establish on its own. There is no impending resolution to this problem.

It's hard to diagnose a problem when two problems are occurring. I believe my problem Roamio has a defective WiFi chip or circuit but I'm also experiencing the _random WiFi disconnect problem_ in this one problem box while the other Roamio works just perfect.

Guess it's time to RMA the problem Roamio and hope for the best.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

just4tivo said:


> Guess it's time to RMA the problem Roamio and hope for the best.


I feel for you. I think swapping the box would be a good move. With 20.6.3 the networking changed. It used to take a restart to gray out a box no longer accessible. Now it's gone in a minute.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> I feel for you. I think swapping the box would be a good move. With 20.6.3 the networking changed. It used to take a restart to gray out a box no longer accessible. Now it's gone in a minute.


My reservation to RMAing the problem Roamio is that without a reliable network connection copying all the recordings from the problem box to the new one would be, at least, problematic.

I could temporarily move problem Roamio and new Roamio to the room where the router is and connect them by ethernet for recording transfer but the TiVo supervisor said that the dropped network connection problem is both ethernet and WiFi. Damned if I do and damned if I don't... feels a lot like Dish and DirecTV did and that's why I dumped them.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

just4tivo said:


> My reservation to RMAing the problem Roamio is that without a reliable network connection copying all the recordings from the problem box to the new one would be, at least, problematic.
> 
> I could temporarily move problem Roamio and new Roamio to the room where the router is and connect them by ethernet for recording transfer but the TiVo supervisor said that the dropped network connection problem is both ethernet and WiFi. Damned if I do and damned if I don't... feels a lot like Dish and DirecTV did and that's why I dumped them.


Don't listen to them. It doesn't cost you anything but time to run Ethernet cables. Also, if it does work, it will be much faster. Also, you can look at the RJ-45 LEDs which will be blinking if there is activity. Maybe your router has activity LED also?


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> Don't listen to them. It doesn't cost you anything but time to run Ethernet cables. Also, if it does work, it will be much faster. Also, you can look at the RJ-45 LEDs which will be blinking if there is activity. Maybe your router has activity LED also?


I guess you missed where I said the intermittent dropped network connection problem is both ethernet and WiFi. Recent experience that exposed these problems was from attempting to transfer recordings from one Roamio to another only to have the transfer fail partway through when the network connection dropped. I assumed the problem was simply poor WiFi signal strength but now it seems a combination of poor WiFi signal strength AND intermittent dropped network connection.

Connecting by ethernet will only resolve poor WiFi signal which now is not the only problem causing dropped recording transfers.

I guess you missed where I said running ethernet in my home from the router room to the two Roamio locations can't be done easily or cost effectively. On a slab, no attic, no crawl space will require a lot of time, sheet rock repair, and paint work... hardly not "not costing anything". WiFi works fine and was working fine till this Roamio had these two problems. Setting the difficulty in transferring recordings from the problem Roamio to a replacement Roamio aside I have little faith that a replacement Roamio or my other good Roamio won't develop the intermittent dropped network connection syndrome and TiVI apparently doesn't consider that a large enough problem to resolve.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

You're right. It's been a long week. Well, good luck.


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