# Now That The D10 Satellite Is In Space, Is This The End Of The HR10?



## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

Yesterday, the bird capable of putting 100+ HD channels into every DirecTV home in America launched successfully, and it's estimated that by mid-September the number of MPEG4 channels will exceed those that cable can provide.

In anticipation of this, I sold my beloved HR10 last month and got a pair of HR20's, and my question for the HR10 loyalists is this:

At what point are you going to cut over to the HR20? Or is the goal to hold onto your HR10 until they pry it from your sweaty hands?

The HR20 is not as good as an HR10, but if its the only way to get 5x or 7x the amount of HD you've got now, isn't that the only option?










BJ


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I think all you have to do is follow this forum section over the past few months and you'll get a general idea. I too have placed an order for an HR20, though the HR10 will remain in service for a while.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Because of my DMA number, I expect to use my HR10 for quite some time. I'll wait until the new MPEG4 channels become available before I do any upgrading. And then, the HR10 will still be on the account to record SD conflicts and OTA.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

It has to have an impact. HD is video crack and I just can't imagine anyone saying no to more if they have an HD set and are paying for multichannel services. And *gasp* there are certain HD channels I can and will watch live, like PBS-HD, Dsc-HD, HDNet, etc., so in my my video chain-of-command HD trumps DVR...but, I'm greedy and want both.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

I figure I have about one month left before ordering my HR20's. I've waited as long as I could but once the new channels are available I'll be retiring my HR10's to the electronic junk pile in my shop.

HiDef


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## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> I figure I have about one month left before ordering my HR20's. I've waited as long as I could but once the new channels are available I'll be retiring my HR10's to the electronic junk pile in my shop.
> 
> HiDef


Is it really that hard to hack an HR10 to allow it to interpret MPEG4 and emulate an HR20's receiver, guide, etc.? I know it sounds too simplistic, but how is this different than something like Winamp getting a codec to allow MPEG4 as well as MPEG2 back in the day? In the end, it's a hard drive, an OS, and some software. Someone should be able to do it.

BJ


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## GreggC (Nov 10, 2001)

I just gave my two remaining HR10's to my 2 sons (they got LCD's for birthdays) and replaced with 2 HR20's ( Paid 100 for both thx to retention).... Total of 3 now. Very happy so far.


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## rjnerd (May 28, 2007)

boltjames said:


> Is it really that hard to hack an HR10 to allow it to interpret MPEG4 and emulate an HR20's receiver, guide, etc.? I know it sounds too simplistic, but how is this different than something like Winamp getting a codec to allow MPEG4 as well as MPEG2 back in the day? In the end, it's a hard drive, an OS, and some software. Someone should be able to do it.
> 
> BJ


One small problem, the codec's are in hardware. The processor just pushes data to the various bits of hardware, it has nowhere close to the horsepower it would need to decode the data in real time.


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## Marino13 (Jan 17, 2007)

90% of my recording is OTA. I have three HR10-250's and one HR20 and I must say I prefer the HR10-250's. I also have a H20 at each TV that has a HR10-250. That way I can keep the HR10-250's until they force me to give them up and still receive the new mpeg4 HD channels live on the H20. I will then make a decision if I will need to be recording any of the new HD channels.


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## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

rjnerd said:


> One small problem, the codec's are in hardware. The processor just pushes data to the various bits of hardware, it has nowhere close to the horsepower it would need to decode the data in real time.


Ah, and I'm assuming that the inverse (taking an HR20 and porting a version of the HR10 UI) is similarly impossible?

BJ


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

boltjames said:


> Ah, and I'm assuming that the inverse (taking an HR20 and porting a version of the HR10 UI) is similarly impossible?


Well, I don't know about "impossible", but you'd pretty much have to start from scratch and be able to install your own software on the box (which as far as I know, people have not yet figured out and it would get wiped by any DirecTV updates.)

Doesn't seem worthwhile to me, as much as I love TiVo.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Wow, I'm surprised that this thread hasn't turned into a flame fest. Good show everyone.

But it's a good question that I've been flamed before for bringing up. No matter how much you love Tivo, if you plan to stay with DirecTV and want HD you will end up with an HR20, like it or not. 

And what I've encouraged people that don't like it is to participate in the CE program on DBSTalk and help shape the direction of the HR20. DirecTV is very involved with the users at DBSTalk on several fronts including multiple CE programs on the HR20, H20 and even R15 and testing the new SWM switches. I'll tell ya, it's awesome running dual tuners on just one cable. Anyway, I encourage any HR10 user that gets the HR20 to become involved to help point the direction of the HR20. DirecTV is listening to what we have to say.

I just need to order my 2nd one before the flood of orders begins in less then 2 months.


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

I'm sitting here reading all of the various threads and I've come to the conclusion that I just don't know what I should do right now. I mean, I have an HR10-250 now that I like a lot, but I also don't want to wait TOO long to get an HR20. I'm thinking that maybe I've waited to change over to the HR20 as long as I can. The fall tv schedule is drawing ever closer and I'd like to have this resolved by then. It would also be nice to get CW in HD as well, which for me will only happen with the HR20.

It's been a while since I've checked into this but isn't there some sort of list that gives every city a date that Directv plans to rollout local HD service to?


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## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

kbohip said:


> I'm sitting here reading all of the various threads and I've come to the conclusion that I just don't know what I should do right now. I mean, I have an HR10-250 now that I like a lot, but I also don't want to wait TOO long to get an HR20. I'm thinking that maybe I've waited to change over to the HR20 as long as I can. The fall tv schedule is drawing ever closer and I'd like to have this resolved by then. It would also be nice to get CW in HD as well, which for me will only happen with the HR20.


As someone who up until 2 months ago was in the same confused situation you were, I can give you the short answer if you want it:

What you should do is get yourself an HR20 right now.

I miss my HR10 and am forever indebted to Tivo for their revolutionary product idea, but loyalty will only get you as far as that very first program that's available in HD on the HR20 that's not on your HR10. Fans of the Apple Mac are fiercely loyal to their computers, but the content is not restrained. They stick to their OS of choice, but it doesn't cost them any access. Not like Safari says "sorry.....you can't visit Google or MSNBC or 70% of internet content".

I felt guilty about cheating on Tivo for about 10 minutes. Then I discovered native mode and then I saw my first Yankees game on YES HD and then I ran to Best Buy and purchased my second HR20 and sold my HR10 on Craigslist. Happened overnight.

You've got, what, 12 HD channels right now? By September, I'll have, what, 50 HD channels?

Bottom line: It's inevitable. No reason to wait.

BJ


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

kbohip said:


> It's been a while since I've checked into this but isn't there some sort of list that gives every city a date that Directv plans to rollout local HD service to?


Nope, there isn't. They announced a list of cities back at the beginning of the year and most have gone up already. They have said that a few more may go before year's end but the rest (as in all markets) will follow after the launch of D11 in early 2008. I think they want to make positive sure they can do it all before committing any dates.

As for CW-HD, they did announce that they planned to roll out *all* HD stations in a market, not just the "big four". No timeframe but again I'd expect 2008 on that one, maybe sooner if you're in a top market like New York or Chicago. So if the CW is in HD in your market then expect it up on DirecTV at some point. It's just a digital subchannel in my market so no luck for me.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

It amuses me how most people seem to forget they don't need to replace their HR10; they can supplement it with an HR20.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

dswallow said:


> It amuses me how most people seem to forget they don't need to replace their HR10; they can supplement it with an HR20.


Finally! Someone said it!!

I don't understand the reasoning behind retiring the HR10 just because you get an HR20. !!!!


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I can understand some reasons for replacing:

1) If you need to run new lines to the dish
2) You don't tend to have conflicts that would require more than two tuners
3) You don't want to pay $5 more a month (plus an additional $5 or so in power costs)
4) It would complicate your equipment setup

I do plan on keeping my HR10 active, at least for a while, and I already have the feeds in place. But I'm uncertain how much additional use I'll get from the HR10 once the HR20 is fully "operational". Time will tell.


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## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

JimSpence said:


> Finally! Someone said it!!
> 
> I don't understand the reasoning behind retiring the HR10 just because you get an HR20. !!!!


Because its still worth around $400 on the open market to those that want it. By this time next year, that's not going to be the case, and with very little must-have SD on D* once all the sat's are up and running, it's going to be the most expensive over/underfeatured DVR in the house.

I was able to get a second HR20 and a few months service for the price I got for my HR10.

BJ


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

JimSpence said:


> Finally! Someone said it!!
> 
> I don't understand the reasoning behind retiring the HR10 just because you get an HR20. !!!!


For those who are in an MPEG-4 HD local area, don't want to or are unable to receive ATSC signals, and don't want to watch SD programming, I can understand how they would have no need for the HR10. It doesn't apply to me right now, but when the MPEG-2 HD feed is gone, I could see myself retiring the HR10.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

I got my first HR20 in March, and just added my 2nd last week, but have kept both of my HR10s active as well. When the MPEG2 HD stops being sent, I'll deactivate my two HDVR2 units and use the HR10s as SD recorders.

To add to the discussion about complicated setups ...

DirecTV is actively testing several new pieces of "support hardware" that will help to simplify installation. One new item is the SWM - singe wire module- multiswitch, which permits multiple dual-tuner DVRs to be connected to the switch over a single line, which can even be RG59 with splitters in it. (There are limits to the number of DVRs, based on the size of the switch.) The idea behind this SWM is to be able to seamlessly work in "legacy" home wiring setups from the 1970's forward. DirecTV is also testing "legacy port expanders" and new splitters to work with the SWM to permit older receivers to integrate with the SWM. This will ultimately simplify adding new hardware into existing systems, but will certainly help new customers moving from cable to DirecTV.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

I'm going to wait and see what the rest of the market does with switched video, etc. I think Direct has come out with a mediocre box and I don't intend to give them any money for it. 

I read about how much Direct is listening to users of the new box, but it has some serious flaws - just look at the OTA mess - that make me think it may never come up to the quality of Tivo. Plus for a company that is supposedly listening to their customers - the most important missing feature seems to be DLB (dual live buffers), yet nothing is heard from Direct about implementing that feature. There are other major programming flaws such as searching that make the 'features' useless in the eyes of many Tivo users.

I think it's more important to remind Direct that many of us enjoy the Tivo quality and ease of use and won't be moving until Direct forces us, and then we may move to a competitor. It's about Tivo for me, it's not about Direct. 

Oh sure, they may have an HD channel that I might like to see, but I'm not signing up for a 2-year commitment using questionable technology, and supporting a company who has thrown the finger up to it's most valuable customers - Tivo HD customers.


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## ssandhoops (Feb 23, 2002)

Back when the new DVR was first announced there was much disucssion about whether D* would upgrade/replace HR-10's for free, especially among the early adopters (like myself) that paid $600-$1000 for their HR-10's. Based on what I've seen on this forum, it seems to me D* is not in the habit of replacing/upgrading any HR-10's for free or near free unless you threaten to cancel, play the CSR roulette game, etc. I am quite surprised that there hasn't appeared to be much outrage over D*'s failure to follow thru on what many believed was a promise to upgrade HR-10 owners for free or near free. For me, I will holdout until that upgrade is free or near free and I don't have to play CSR roulette to get it.


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

OTA is fine, DLB may never get to the HR20. If you must have it then you should probably look for another service. I still have 2 HR10s, one is recording most of my SD programming. I plan on keeping them in service as long as I can. I also have 3 of the new ones.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

If you look at the other forum, you'll discover that OTA is a crapshoot. D* had trouble implementing it. In fact, they had to scrap their original design. They also are using 3rd generation technology when 5th generation is available. In my mind, that shows that D* is doing as little as possible to get OTA to work.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Well, the HR10 is not all that good at OTA - it has a bad problem with multipath and is a 2003 design.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

I've read about the HR10's problems too. But, the HR10 was developed a few years ago and I would have thought that Direct would have learned about those issues and taken advantage of the newer technologies. 

I don't know if Tivo or Direct or both developed the OTA for the HR10-250. I assume it would be a combination of the two companies. In any case, it appears to me that Direct created new problems even though it's a couple of years more into the technology. That's an indication to me that Direct is doing everything on the cheap, and speaks for the quality of the rest of the product.

I have also read about external devices that are required for the other box. Again, I get the feeling that this box is not well thought out, but instead was rushed to market.


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## doncoolio (Jul 9, 2006)

That picture is from a sea launch. This sat went up from Kazakhstan.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

JimSpence said:


> Finally! Someone said it!!
> 
> I don't understand the reasoning behind retiring the HR10 just because you get an HR20. !!!!


I've said it MANY times.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> I've read about the HR10's problems too. But, the HR10 was developed a few years ago and I would have thought that Direct would have learned about those issues and taken advantage of the newer technologies.
> 
> I don't know if Tivo or Direct or both developed the OTA for the HR10-250. I assume it would be a combination of the two companies. In any case, it appears to me that Direct created new problems even though it's a couple of years more into the technology. That's an indication to me that Direct is doing everything on the cheap, and speaks for the quality of the rest of the product.


The only thing I'll say about OTA is that it's different for everyone in every market. HR20 is better for some, worse for others. Just like the HR10 was great OTA for some, bad for others. Just like a TV's internal tuner is good for some, bad for others. There are so many factors involved with OTA it's not even funny. Personally the HR20 is a better OTA tuner then either my TV or my old Hughes E-86. I get stronger signals across the board and I get one station I could not with the others. But a guy down the street may find it worse. Just the nature of the OTA beast.



> I have also read about external devices that are required for the other box. Again, I get the feeling that this box is not well thought out, but instead was rushed to market.


No. There are "B Band converters" required for the H20 or HR20 to tune to the new sats that are going up. But the new SWM switchs have that all built in so you don't need them. Since SWM is going to be the new standard switch, people won't need the B Band converters unless you have an older installation and don't have the new SWM switch. Thus they save money by not building it into the receivers since they are actually building the technology into the next generation switch.

Need to do your research there, but no biggy, you didn't know.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> It's about Tivo for me, it's not about Direct.


And that's great.

But for the vast majority of people it's not. Content and price are why most people are with DirecTV, Dish or cable. Not the DVR software.

That certainly doesn't discount that it's different for you and certainly doesn't make it wrong (although you do seem to get offended and all bent out of shape when someone else says the DVR software just doesn't matter). It's just for most people it's not the case and I think you need to come to a realization of that truth. Maybe then you'll feel better that you are right and 98% of the people out there are wrong.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

So, if this is so well thought out, why wasn't this SWM switch available when the box came out?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

So who says it was well thought out?  

At the end of the day, who cares if something is well thought out or not?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> So who says it was well thought out?
> 
> At the end of the day, who cares if something is well thought out or not?


Usually the people who have to fix things care.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> So, if this is so well thought out, why wasn't this SWM switch available when the box came out?


Because of development cycles, as most people will know... most of these things are not built over night... Especially a device that changes the way the SAT signal is distributed in the home.

Should the HR20 have sat on the shelf for another year, while the SWM finished it's development ?

For a product that is going to be used in a smaller subset of scribers, and is more targeted at NEW subscriptions? (Referring to the SWM)


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## bustergonad (Jul 15, 2001)

Since I'm moving house in December I'll wait until then to upgrade. The only way I'll upgrade before then is if D* announces that Sunday Ticket HD matches will only be in MPEG4 this year. Other than that I can wait until December for more HD goodness 

Roy


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bonscott87 said:


> But for the vast majority of people it's not. Content and price are why most people are with DirecTV, Dish or cable. Not the DVR software.
> 
> That certainly doesn't discount that it's different for you and certainly doesn't make it wrong (although you do seem to get offended and all bent out of shape when someone else says the DVR software just doesn't matter). It's just for most people it's not the case and I think you need to come to a realization of that truth. Maybe then you'll feel better that you are right and 98% of the people out there are wrong.


For most it's not just content and price and it's not just DVR software, it's about content, quality, convenience, and value. I know some like to reduce it all down to content since they can justify accepting just about anything to get their team on the tube, but that's not the way most households work.

The vast majority of DVR households are perfectly happy to get buy with the DVR their cable or satellite company provide. If you want to put yourself in that strata you're welcome to it. But for most of us here, the quality of the DVR experience and the choice of something besides what is provided by the programming provider is part of the value equation.

Why would anyone hang out here if DVR software doesn't matter to them?


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

nrc said:


> Why would anyone hang out here if DVR software doesn't matter to them?


You think everyone in the Happy Hour owns a TiVo?


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## 5 ACES (May 23, 2004)

Is there anyone here who is "Grandfathered" into the I don't have lease anything club? Directv told me that I would never have to lease any equipment due to me being a long time subscriber, but they are now giving me the hint that the HR20 may or may not fall into this category. I have never had to lease anything from Directv and we have a total of eight receivers, two of them the older Dtivos and one of them the HR10. My question is this: When it's all said and done, will they force me to lease everything while I switch over to the new dish and receiver, or is this "Grandfather" thing good for all equipment I get from Directv in the future? Thanks!!!


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

faster guides, better PQ then yes. If you have no need for the new MPEG-4 channels then no.

If and when D* shuts down MPEG-2 HD (IMO middle to end of 08) then the HR10-250 will be great for OTA HD and SD recording.

Mine is upstairs until I get a new HDTV for the Master Bedroom. Then it's a HR20 for the new TV  .

My HR10-250 if it's still working will be used for OTA HD and SD and back-up MPEG-2 HD until it's shut down. I will InstantCake it to 3.1 software were it worked the best.

Then it it run until it dies as a back-up DVR.

I am VERY satisfied with the HR20 and now prefer it. There are still a few things I miss with TiVo SW, but I can live without them.

Again I thank TiVo for a wonderful 4 yrs and opening my eyes to the world of DVRs!!

I will forever be grateful for TiVo, as it changed the way I watched TV and I could NEVER live without a HQ DVR again!

If D* and TiVO ever get back together and they produce an HD MPEG-4 TiVo with many of the HR20 features then great!

BUT, IMO if TiVo does not get off there arse, then the brand will be dead.

How about all those Series 3 TiVo that might not work in a few years on most cables systems?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

nrc said:


> The vast majority of DVR households are perfectly happy to get buy with the DVR their cable or satellite company provide. If you want to put yourself in that strata you're welcome to it. But for most of us here, the quality of the DVR experience and the choice of something besides what is provided by the programming provider is part of the value equation.


Look at my join date. DVR software *used* to matter to me. I thought Tivo was the end all be all. Then I learned that it isn't. Then I learned that so long as I can record my programs I don't care what the DVR software is. Thus it has brought me to my thoughts today. Just my experience I guess.


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## jhays (Apr 25, 2004)

I got my HR20-100 a few days ago. It and my HR10-250 are hooked up to the same (my only!) TV.

It's worth $5 a month to me to have four HD tuners available and two DVR's capable of receiving ASTC. I expect to keep that HR10-250 until it dies.


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## hoopsrgreat (Jan 2, 2005)

I have an hr20 in the family room and an hr10 in the bedroom. I cant stand the lack of dual live buffers on the hr20. Cant stand using it, and until I start missing out on HD content, ill continue to use the hr10-250 as my main DVR.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> No. There are "B Band converters" required for the H20 or HR20 to tune to the new sats that are going up. But the new SWM switchs have that all built in so you don't need them. Since SWM is going to be the new standard switch, people won't need the B Band converters unless you have an older installation and don't have the new SWM switch. Thus they save money by not building it into the receivers since they are actually building the technology into the next generation switch.
> 
> Need to do your research there, but no biggy, you didn't know.


Except that I wrote about the BBC/SWM in a post dated 6/26/2007 and RS4 had posted before and after in that same thread ...

Maybe the source (me) just can't be trusted ...


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

gio1269 said:


> How about all those Series 3 TiVo that might not work in a few years on most cables systems?


WHY are these people continually posting this crap on a Tivo forum? What is the motivation? Do they really believe their pretense of being objective is fooling anybody?

Assuming the best, that you're not shills, and that you've simply made a decision and to deal with your doubts you feel the need to talk about what a great decision you've made, go talk among yourselves where it's welcome. It is not welcome here.

Edited to add: I don't feel that these opinions should be supressed. I simply want the garbage cleared out of sections for which they are not on point. THE DirecTV Tivo powered HiDef Receiver, the ONLY one, is the HR10-250; that's what I look to so-labeled sub-forums to find discussion of. I DO NOT look there for advertisements for other products.

Moderators: I propose two new chit-chat happy hour types of sub-forum areas:

1. I think Tivos are in general no good and here is why
2. I think Tivos are no good for High Defiition TV and here is why

Let people who want to express these points of view post there, and ONLY there. Posts of that ilk from that point on will not be acceptable on other sub-forums, because they are not appropriate to the subject, and will be deleted.

I have no objection AT ALL to what these people are saying, regardless of their motives, which when you get right down to it are none of my business. I just object to the mis-categorization of their posts and I think I have suggested a way to fix this.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

boltjames said:


> Is it really that hard to hack an HR10 to allow it to interpret MPEG4 and emulate an HR20's receiver, guide, etc.?


Hah. Very funny. Let's see... the tivo's decoding is done in hardware. No DTivo has hardware capable of decoding MPEG4. So, No.

w.r.t. "winamp"... winamp codecs are 100% software. Decoding high bit rate MPEG4 takes 90+% of a GIGAHERTZ processor. Tivos have ~100MHz processors. There is no way in [censored] they can do software decoding.



boltjames said:


> Not like Safari says "sorry.....you can't visit Google or MSNBC or 70% of internet content".


Funny you mention it... A LOT of the internet simply does not work in Safari... unless you like blank webpages and forms you cannot submit. I've run into this brick wall every time I've sat down with a mac. So much so that I keep a copy of Opera on a thumb drive. (and I'm not infront of macs very often.)



drew2k said:


> DirecTV is actively testing several new pieces of "support hardware" that will help to simplify installation. One new item is the SWM - singe wire module- multiswitch, which permits multiple dual-tuner DVRs to be connected to the switch over a single line...


Yes, this is what has been available for years called a stacker. They're rather pricey. And the fact that DISH hardware has had "stackers" built in for several years now has nothing to do with DTV wanting the same thing.  Don't forget to include patent avoidance into the development time.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

cramer said:


> Yes, this is what has been available for years called a stacker. They're rather pricey. And the fact that DISH hardware has had "stackers" built in for several years now has nothing to do with DTV wanting the same thing.  Don't forget to include patent avoidance into the development time.


It's not a stacker.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

boltjames said:


> At what point are you going to cut over to the HR20?


As soon as it can go for one month without missing a recording, having a short recording, a blank recording, or rebooting. Part of this has to include getting user configurable channels I receive. Until then I will be keeping my HR10-250 as my primary receiver.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Redux said:


> WHY are these people continually posting this crap on a Tivo forum?


So the Series 3 *will* work with Switched Video? That's news to me. 
Good news for Tivo if it's true.
If not then what he posted is not crap, now is it?


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

JimSpence said:


> Finally! Someone said it!!
> 
> I don't understand the reasoning behind retiring the HR10 just because you get an HR20. !!!!


I can't get reliable OTA, which is why I got the HR20 in the first place. On top of that I have 4 lines out of my dish, and run throughout the house. I just got new siding and I'm not drilling anymore into the house, and it would be a nightmare to run cables through the house. Finally, I have an SD receiver hooked to a Series 2 Tivo, so my HR10-250 is collecting dust.

I plan to sell it soon; the only thing preventing me from doing it already was laziness.


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## srt (Jan 27, 2006)

I wrote D* after one of their emails included info about new channels and equipment. I let them know I live in a rural area that has no local channels and no way that ota will be upgraded to digital anytime soon. The translators serve such a small population that I cannot see the tv clubs upgrading the mountian top equipment for years. I believe I'll continue to pay my equipment protection plan fee on the hr10.
Here's tD*'s reply:

Dear Mr. X,

Thanks for writing us about your local channels. I see you've been with DIRECTV since xxxx, and I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your continued loyalty. I'm sorry for the confusion about the e-mail that you received. I understand your concern about how our transition to MPEG-4 transmission will affect any MPEG-2 equipment you may have. Let me reassure you that most customers will be able to use their MPEG-2 equipment for quite some time.

At this time, our current HD programming will continue to be broadcast using the MPEG-2 standard; MPEG-4 technology will be used only to provide local HD programming in select cities. 

Once local HD programming launches in your city, you will be eligible for an MPEG-4-capable receiver replacement. If you want to replace your HD DVR, our new MPEG-4-capable DIRECTV HD DVR is available to order. 

I hope this information helps. Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information about our service. 

Sincerely,

Ruby M. 
Employee ID:100166677
DIRECTV Customer Service


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

dswallow said:


> It amuses me how most people seem to forget they don't need to replace their HR10; they can supplement it with an HR20.


This sounds like a great idea but not one I would pursue. Why would I want to pay $5 extra every month and have 2 dvr's with completely different remotes, different interfaces, etc. ? If I really wanted to use 2 dvr's I'd be far better off with 2 HR20's and still retire the HR10. ON top of the different interfaces\remotes I'd have one DVR (the HR10) that couldn't get my new HD channels.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> This sounds like a great idea but not one I would pursue. Why would I want to pay $5 extra every month and have 2 dvr's with completely different remotes, different interfaces, etc. ? If I really wanted to use 2 dvr's I'd be far better off with 2 HR20's and still retire the HR10. ON top of the different interfaces\remotes I'd have one DVR (the HR10) that couldn't get my new HD channels.


We keep our HR10's because our HR20 is not yet reliable. All these months of updates, and we still can't count on it 100%.

I'll take dependable over those "new HD channels" every time, but that's just me.


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## scooby_doo_53 (Jul 19, 2004)

I have a general question. I live in Denver, and from what I know, our locals are now available in HD. For those of you that don't know, Denver has been fighting a local group about placing a new HD antenna up for OTA broadcasts. The fight appears to be over, but for now, all of the HD channels are being broadcast on low power transmitters from downtown.

At any rate, I have NEVER received any information from D* about the locals being available. Also, I have NEVER received any information from D* about the new HD channels that they are going to offer. In short, if it wasn't for this forum, I would have no idea about having to get a new dish, etc., for their HD content. What's more, I have 2 HR10-250 units (as well as a H20 that came as a replacement when my first HD received fried during a power outage). Thus, I have 3 HD receivers in my home (out of 4 total), yet not one word from D*.

It would seem I should hear something from them, or do I wait until I can't get certain channels because they are now on MPEG4?

Opinions?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

scooby_doo_53 said:


> At any rate, I have NEVER received any information from D* about the locals being available. Also, I have NEVER received any information from D* about the new HD channels that they are going to offer. In short, if it wasn't for this forum, I would have no idea about having to get a new dish, etc., for their HD content.


DirecTV has released press releases whenever they add new markets. In my market the local papers and TV stations ran stories about it. No idea about your market.



> It would seem I should hear something from them, or do I wait until I can't get certain channels because they are now on MPEG4?
> 
> Opinions?


Totally up to you. You know the channels are coming. If it's something you are interested in then either get ahead of the rush or wait until they are actually live. Up to your and your situation.


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## Televisionary (Oct 24, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> Look at my join date. DVR software *used* to matter to me. I thought Tivo was the end all be all. Then I learned that it isn't. Then I learned that so long as I can record my programs I don't care what the DVR software is. Thus it has brought me to my thoughts today. Just my experience I guess.


Look at mine. For me, the power and simplicity of TiVo's software are primary in purchase decisions. That kind of user-centered quality is what sells 1 million iPhones in a week, and 100 million iPods in 5 years. I won't subject myself to knockoff DVR software unless I have absolutely no other choice, and probably not then, either. I likely have to postpone my switch to HDTV for that reason.

To say "[you] _learned_ that [DVR software doesn't matter]" implies this is a fact. It's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. Our join dates don't turn our opinions into facts. Your 98% vs. 2% numbers--can you cite a source, or was that also your opinion?

I'd say it's true you _learned_ to settle for less, or that you learned you didn't rely on TiVo's feature set. I do rely heavily on TiVo's features, WishLists especially, and would like to see more features to enhance my enjoyment of TV. So, I just can't settle for generic DVR software. That's unfortunate, because life would be simpler if I could.

And that's my opinion.

-T

PS> As you know, us old-timers got our post counters reset a while back. I was over 500 then, but have kept low-key since. You have over 1800 posts since the reset, so I'm curious: if your new opinion is that TiVo software has no value over house-brand DVR software, and your "truth" is 98% of DVR households agree with you, why are you still here and what have you been contributing all this time?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I am also an old-timer, having started with a Sony standalone in 2000. The DVR software DOES matter to me, and my preference would be for a TiVo-powered DVR that handles all the new DirecTV technologies. I'm not going to get it.

If the HR20 is truly horrible, then I'll have to look for some other solution. Opinions seem to be mixed. I'll find out for myself in a couple of weeks.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Televisionary said:


> PS> As you know, us old-timers got our post counters reset a while back. I was over 500 then, but have kept low-key since. You have over 1800 posts since the reset, so I'm curious: if your new opinion is that TiVo software has no value over house-brand DVR software, and your "truth" is 98% of DVR households agree with you, why are you still here and what have you been contributing all this time?


I don't know about my post count. All I can tell you is that I have been very active at TCF in the past helping people with their Tivo's. I have 2 DirecTivo's myself still.

All I do now is simply direct people that ask about the HR20 over to DBSTalk, correct FUD and incorrect information, answer quick questions while directing over to another site.

However when I am attacked for simply doing what people want around here (HR20 talk somewhere else) then I respond in kind. If people wouldn't attack these threads would die quickly after 4 or 5 posts. But people just can't leave it alone. Funny how they fuel the discussions they don't want to see. Real funny.

As for 98% figure, it's when you realize that the bubble you live in on forums isn't the real world and that Joe Sixpack (the 98%) doesn't care or even knows the issues, that's where that comes from. I personally realize it now. And it comes from experience in computers and consumer electronics over the past decade. If you can't see that then you need to re-examine how a few thousand Tivo devotees on TCF equals anything more then .02% of DVR households. So 2% is generous. It's the realization that even if 100,000 people left DirecTV over not having Tivo that they sign up that many new subs in less then a month. They would never notice. So when people claim that people leaving DirecTV over Tivo will hurt them it's just not the case and to think otherwise is just clouding your judgment.

Heck if even a half million subs left, they would notice, but they would feel better for it as they want subs that are loyal to them, not Tivo or some other service. They would take the hit and know they will be better for it down the road with a more loyal *and stable* customer base. If you don't have a loyal customer base to you then you could lose them at any time and that isn't stable and that isn't good for the bean counters and stock holders.

But hey, what do I know. Nothing more then anyone else I guess.

I'll say this again:
*If people would quick attacking these threads and just let them die with a direction to DBSTalk then you won't see them again.*


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> *If people would quick attacking these threads and just let them die with a direction to DBSTalk then you won't see them again.*


Translation: _ "if people would simply agree with my POV about the HR20, I'd stop responding!"_

Just kidding......


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> Translation: _ "if people would simply agree with my POV about the HR20, I'd stop responding!"_
> 
> Just kidding......


LOL. 

Honestly I could care less what people think about the HR20 if they have made an informed opinion. FUD and misinformation is what I hate.

HR20 certainly isn't for everyone just like Tivo or Replay or Dish VIP or generic cable DVR isn't for everyone. Too bad not everyone can see that.

But seriously, all flames aside, people are posting here asking about the HR20 because they are long time Tivo users and don't know where else to ask. Not everyone hangs out on these forums days on end and know the "protocol". And it's these users that are getting attacked and driven away from the Tivo forum where they might elsewise find out some important information about how maybe their cable company may be offering Tivo, how to use a stand alone with various services or investigate a Series 3. But if these people are attacked and driven away then a possible future Tivo customer is also being driven away.

Thus it amazes to me to no end to see Tivo supporters driving away the very people who might consider a Tivo. But no, there are some here that must attack anything that isn't "rah rah" Tivo, even if it's just an innocent question asking what the D10 satellite means to them and their HR10.

But besides that they just don't get that if they would just leave the HR20 post alone, let a couple replies direct them to another site if they wish more info, and the post will quietly disappear. Guys like RS4 only foster the very thing they don't want to see. Maybe cooler heads will prevail and they will figure it out, for the sake of the forum.


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## hoopsbwc34 (Jan 28, 2003)

See my problem is I'm still grandfathered in with DNS, and as soon as I switch to the HR20 I lose them (because locals are now available in mpeg 4). So I may not shut it down until after football season... or until there is some content I have to have in HD on those other channels... or I switch to Dish Network just to try something different


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## 94SupraTT (Feb 17, 2005)

dswallow said:


> It amuses me how most people seem to forget they don't need to replace their HR10; they can supplement it with an HR20.


Thats exactly what I'll be doing. I'm still holding out hope there will be a mpeg4 HD-tivo. If not, I'll get an HR20 and keep my 2 HR10s until they give up the ghost.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

What gets me is that people like Scott say they are telling us the truth about the HR20, but it just ain't so. That box is not up to the quality of the Tivos nor does it have the user interface of the Tivo.

Of course there are Tivo users who like the HR20, but there are just as many who don't, and for whatever reason, Scott doesn't seem able to admit to that. In fact, Scott gives you this rosy picture of a terrific box and he seems incredulous that anyone is having problems. After all, he isn't and never has. But the truth is, you don't see people who are excited about the box. Instead, the attitude is more like, yes I'll accept it, but I'd prefer a Tivo.

There are still lots of people having hardware problems. There are still lots of software issues with the box. Is it getting better, well of course. When you're starting with a box that can barely stay alive for a day at the beginning, it's bound to improve after nine months.

So Scott will talk about the things he likes like his one-touch recording. But if you want to set up a recording after a search, it hardly works at all. In fact, you'll find Scott suggesting to someone that they don't even use the feature.

Many people realize that I don't like Direct. I think they've totally changed since Murdoch took over the company and a perfect example is the HR20. It's box that was rushed to market. Someone decided (Murdoch?) they could get rid of Tivo and come out with their own product. Their first attempt - the non-hd dvr - from Murdoch's own company that had been producing dvr's for several years - was so bad, that I'm guessing they decided to make the HD dvr in house.

If you research the forums and other internet sites, you'll come to the obvious conclusion that this an improving box, but still fraught with problems. Direct has started from the bottom up and they've produced a box that looks like it's brand new. And indeed, it has all the growing pains of a first-release product. Why would you want to get a brand new box that is in it's infancy when it still has so many problems?

Instead, many of us have had a Tivo for many years. We love the ease with which we can do some functions. We think it's the best or certainly near the top in usability.

Do you think Direct is willing to give up a half billion to a billion dollars in income? Of course not. But that's what 500,000 users represents. If people hold off long enough, perhaps Direct and Tivo will see a winning combination again - one that both companies and the customers can benefit from. I think it's better for the Tivo clients that really want to stay with Tivo to hold tight - wait for something better. See what happens. See if Direct changes their minds, especially with new ownership.

I don't mind discussions about the alternatives. I just want the discussions to be open and honest. Of course there are Tivo users that like the new box, but it isn't in the numbers that Scott and others would have you believe. If you look at those other forums, you'll see things for what they are. This box has come a long way, but it has a long way to go before it ever becomes what most people want. Why would you want to go back to something you had 7 years ago? And yet, that's exactly what's happening with the HR20. It's a box that's in it's beginnings, because Direct didn't give it the time and attention they should have before it got to market.

Take just one item - the OTA feature. It's had so many issues, they have stickies on it. It's been out for months and they have huge discussions on will it ever work properly. In many cases it does work better then the HR10-250, but it should - the technology has gone through several generations since then. But if you look at the other forum you'll discover that Direct used 3rd generation technology when 5th is available. You'll also discover that many rate the HR20 as the lowest in it's field of the current equipment actively selling in the market today. In other words, Direct has done the absolute minimum to get OTA working.

That's why I don't like Direct these days. They want to lock us in for 2 years in the hopes we either forget about the quality of the Tivo, or they have it working by then. (The NDS group that Murdock owns that developed the non-hd dvr had problems that were 4 years old that hadn't been solved. Guess what - some of those same problems are in the box they built for Direct. And I believe that's one reason Direct gave up on them.)

I encourage you to check out the other forum, you'll find after nine months, there is still a large amount of discontent - especially among the Tivo users. Get informed before making a big decision that you're stuck with for 2 years. Don't just read the opinions here, check out DBStalk. Get the truth. I think you'll be amazed.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> What gets me is that people like Scott say they are telling us the truth about the HR20, but it just ain't so. That box is not up to the quality of the Tivos nor does it have the user interface of the Tivo.


I've already challenged you to prove that you say I'm lying. I'm still waiting.



> Of course there are Tivo users who like the HR20, but there are just as many who don't, and for whatever reason, Scott doesn't seem able to admit to that.


Again, lies by you. I can't tell you how many times I've said that there are people that don't like it and there are people that have problems. I think your problem is you can't read. 



> In fact, Scott gives you this rosy picture of a terrific box and he seems incredulous that anyone is having problems. After all, he isn't and never has.


Once again you can't read. Once again I can't say how many times I've said there are people that have problem with the HR20. Sure I haven't had many but the evidence is right there on various forums. Wow, news flash. People have problems with the HR20. Ooooooo I have chills. 



> So Scott will talk about the things he likes like his one-touch recording. But if you want to set up a recording after a search, it hardly works at all. In fact, you'll find Scott suggesting to someone that they don't even use the feature.


You can setup recordings just fine using a search. What doesn't work properly is setting up an autorecord search since the CIR (channels I receive) feature isn't tuned on yet until older receivers can be updated so they don't choke on the updated data stream. But then I've explained this all before. I stated that the *feature doesn't work* and thus recommended that people not use autorecord searches and proposed work arounds.

Wow...I'm so evil and against Tivo for saying that the HR20 has a feature that *doesn't* work and proposed work arounds. Good one RS4. You really prove your point with that one.  Besides, it's pretty well known that the Tivo has superior Wishlist and searching support then the HR20 at this time. How much that effects someone all depends on how much you use that feature.

------------------------

So once again we have you spouting off about nothing, including false claims about what people have said. Once again, quote the lies and we'll talk. Otherwise you keep proving to everyone that you know nothing and simply have an agenda against a 2 year commitment that any cable company will buy you out of.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> What gets me is that people like Scott say they are telling us the truth about the HR20, but it just ain't so. That box is not up to the quality of the Tivos nor does it have the user interface of the Tivo.


Yawn... seriously...
In your eyes... it is "not up to quality"...

Well frankly... even if the HR20 started to spit out cold hard cash, I have a feeling you still wouldn't like it.

There are many people that think the GUI on the HR20 is just fine... heck even my 6 year old, has no problem managing it......

There are people that think the GUI on the TiVo was designed by PIXAR because of the cartoony look to it...

Sorry... anything you can do with your TiVo interface, you can do with the HR20...
Some in less key presses, others in a few more... overall... same number of steps.

You hit LIST To go to my playlist, you hit Guide for guide... you hit R for record.. you RW for Rewind, ect...

Sorry that the menu's are not full screen like they are TiVo, and are just basic words, in a mini menu... until there is a need for full screen.



RS4 said:


> Of course there are Tivo users who like the HR20, but there are just as many who don't, and for whatever reason, Scott doesn't seem able to admit to that. In fact, Scott gives you this rosy picture of a terrific box and he seems incredulous that anyone is having problems. After all, he isn't and never has. But the truth is, you don't see people who are excited about the box. Instead, the attitude is more like, yes I'll accept it, but I'd prefer a Tivo.


Yawn again... Same song, Same Tune... not even a different day.
Bonscott has flat time and time again, stated there are still people that have issues. I'll say it too. But to paint the picture that you are trying to paint, that the HR20 is hell in a box... is just as "false" as you are claiming bonscott is attempting to be.

Bottom line, if you look at the numbers of people that participate and actively communicate on the HR20 at DBSTalk... vs the number of posts of issues and failures... the percentage prove that there are more people that don't have problem, then that do.

Just because he doesn't match your opinion on the topic, doesn't mean he is lying or is flase... just means you two don't have the same opinion...



RS4 said:


> There are still lots of people having hardware problems. There are still lots of software issues with the box. Is it getting better, well of course. When you're starting with a box that can barely stay alive for a day at the beginning, it's bound to improve after nine months.


Umm.. Totally depends on your definition of a "lot".
Frankly from a hardware point of view... I don't see a higher failure rate from a hardware point of view, then the TiVo boxes (all types).

And sorry.. the HR20 was able to stay alive... but let's get past this, as you can go back as far a December (7+ months ago), and the HR20 was already getting to a point of reliability for users.



RS4 said:


> So Scott will talk about the things he likes like his one-touch recording. But if you want to set up a recording after a search, it hardly works at all. In fact, you'll find Scott suggesting to someone that they don't even use the feature.


Really? Funny..
You do a search, you highlight the program... and you hit R...

But if you are referring to AUTORECORD BASED on a SEARCH, something completly different.

If you are referring to the fact, that you now have the possibility of THREE locals beeing listed for a show, well then yes.. it is possible to setup the Series Link on the wrong program.

No different then setting up the Season Pass incorrectly, based on a Search.



RS4 said:


> Many people realize that I don't like Direct. I think they've totally changed since Murdoch took over the company and a perfect example is the HR20. It's box that was rushed to market. Someone decided (Murdoch?) they could get rid of Tivo and come out with their own product. Their first attempt - the non-hd dvr - from Murdoch's own company that had been producing dvr's for several years - was so bad, that I'm guessing they decided to make the HD dvr in house.


Shocker there... 
Rushed to market... well it was only in development for 18 months...
And got to a point that it could go to the market... and at a time that it HAD to go to market....

MPEG-4 DVR was needed to continue the growth... Media outlets starting to write articles that it was no where to be seen... TiVo Series 3 was released (and some argue it TOO was release to market to soon)...

Should it have been held on to... sure, but there are a lot more factors that play into it.... Should it have taken 3+ years like the Comcast TiVo box... that IMHO, is 1.5 years too late... and missed it's opportunity to cash in... Heck that Comcast TiVo isn't even out yet, and who knows when it is going to be available to the ENTIRE COMCAST market, or what it is going to be like.

Not an excuse here, but given the complexity of these systems.
This is no different then any other major product out there... XBOX360, PS3, Wii, BluRay Players, HD-DVD Players, even cells phones (anyone want to bet there will be an iPhone update soon)... just the nature of the industry now...



RS4 said:


> If you research the forums and other internet sites, you'll come to the obvious conclusion that this an improving box, but still fraught with problems. Direct has started from the bottom up and they've produced a box that looks like it's brand new. And indeed, it has all the growing pains of a first-release product. Why would you want to get a brand new box that is in it's infancy when it still has so many problems?


Down side of researching... if you don't pay attention to dates, and have an appriciation of what is going on... you can easily get BAD information.
Like if you read the CNet reviews (still the number 1 hit on Google)...

That review is very old, even the update is very old.

You check other sites... some of the blog entries are a SINGLE person, then jumped on by a few others.

Why would anyone want to spend $1000 on an HR10-250 which too was an infant when it was release... I know I did... why? I wanted an HD-DVR... didn't really care if there problems with it, as I knew they where going to work out.



RS4 said:


> Instead, many of us have had a Tivo for many years. We love the ease with which we can do some functions. We think it's the best or certainly near the top in usability.


I have probably spent more money on TiVo based hardware over the last 7 years, then most people on this forum board...

And yes... when I first fired up the R15... It took me a LONG while to get used to the new gui... but it was just that... a learning curve. Like I said earlier...
Everything I did on my TiVo (minus DLB, which I didn't even use that much), I can do on my DVR+ systems.... everything... and I will argue it is just as easy...

But you have to be willing to learn the new GUI... just like you had to learn TiVo's GUI.. (not everyone out there just picked up the Peanut and was a master)... My mother is 3 years now with a TiVo... and she still calls me at times to ask me how to do things with it.



RS4 said:


> Do you think Direct is willing to give up a half billion to a billion dollars in income? Of course not. But that's what 500,000 users represents. If people hold off long enough, perhaps Direct and Tivo will see a winning combination again - one that both companies and the customers can benefit from. I think it's better for the Tivo clients that really want to stay with Tivo to hold tight - wait for something better. See what happens. See if Direct changes their minds, especially with new ownership.


$500,000,000 where in the word did you come up with that number?

A $1,000 for 500,000 users... for what? The opportunity to use a TiVo powered unit. Right... That is before you factor in any costs for developement, research, and new functionality that they want in there...

Then there is of course the cost of support, maintence, TiVo's cut, ect...

Sure ownership may be changing, of the primary stock holder.
But there are still 60%+ of other stock holders, and the basically the same management team for DirecTV Group.

If you still want to believe in the delusion that TiVo is comming back to DirecTV...
Go right ahead...... if you are willing to wait it out, just to find out... go right ahead.
Your choice...

But I will state it again, as I have many times.
Short of DirecTV Group and TiVo group being underneath the same parent company.... You are never going to see another TiVo powered DVR.



RS4 said:


> I don't mind discussions about the alternatives. I just want the discussions to be open and honest. Of course there are Tivo users that like the new box, but it isn't in the numbers that Scott and others would have you believe. If you look at those other forums, you'll see things for what they are. This box has come a long way, but it has a long way to go before it ever becomes what most people want. Why would you want to go back to something you had 7 years ago? And yet, that's exactly what's happening with the HR20. It's a box that's in it's beginnings, because Direct didn't give it the time and attention they should have before it got to market.


Sorry... you don't want it be open and honest... as you keep attacking open/honest statements....

#1 rule of forum boards: most users come to the forums when they are having issues... not because they are not, and just want to hang out.

IMHO... I will go bullet point by bullet point... the two HR20's I have in my living room, exceed the HR10-250 that was the previous occupant of that room.

Yes, it is in it's beginning, but frankly... it started out a higher grade level, then where the previous DVR's started.... Maybe it bit of more then it can chew when it first came out... and that was it's problem...

The number of people that are happy with the HR20, is not a "low" as you are trying to paint it...

The HR20 may have to go a long way to the box that YOU want it to be...



RS4 said:


> Take just one item - the OTA feature. It's had so many issues, they have stickies on it. It's been out for months and they have huge discussions on will it ever work properly. In many cases it does work better then the HR10-250, but it should - the technology has gone through several generations since then. But if you look at the other forum you'll discover that Direct used 3rd generation technology when 5th is available. You'll also discover that many rate the HR20 as the lowest in it's field of the current equipment actively selling in the market today. In other words, Direct has done the absolute minimum to get OTA working.


Sorry that we create stickies to try to gather more information on specific topics...
OTA works fine here... works fine for others... But there are those that have issues with it... And those are the cases they are trying to identify, so they can figure comminality and reasons for those issues....

Why does it work there, but not there... ect...



RS4 said:


> That's why I don't like Direct these days. They want to lock us in for 2 years in the hopes we either forget about the quality of the Tivo, or they have it working by then. (The NDS group that Murdock owns that developed the non-hd dvr had problems that were 4 years old that hadn't been solved. Guess what - some of those same problems are in the box they built for Direct. And I believe that's one reason Direct gave up on them.)


Ahh yes... the "let's lock them in for 2 years", and stick them with the big bad old hardware....

How about you listen to some of the Quarterly earnings reports, and get an understanding of the some of the dollars that are involved....

One of the MAIN reasons why they lock people in, is no wants to pay the $1,000 that it costs for some of this equipment... they want it for lower out of pocket costs...

Dishnetwork... they have started their own lease program... 18 months instead of 24... do they also want to get you to forget TiVo?

How about TiVo, Inc themselves... 
If you don't want to pay $20 a month for service... pre-pay for 3 years... and it nets out to a lower level... but isn't that just another form of contracts?



RS4 said:


> I encourage you to check out the other forum, you'll find after nine months, there is still a large amount of discontent - especially among the Tivo users. Get informed before making a big decision that you're stuck with for 2 years. Don't just read the opinions here, check out DBStalk. Get the truth. I think you'll be amazed.


I encourge EVERYONE to also check out www.dbtalk.com
To get the truth as well... I think you will be amazed just the same.

While you are at... take a look back at these forums here...
And you will probably be just as amazed, as it isn't as rozy here as others try to paint it..

The facts are there... there is no hiding it..
You look back at the archives of this exact forum, when the HR10-250 was released... and you will find that it wasn't smooth sailing...

Heck... you don't even have to go the archives, just go look up in the T3 forum.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

The following is long-standing Tivo Community Forum policy:

"Discussion of new Directv DVR models to be done off site.
Its been decided that since this is a TiVo forum, discussion of DVRs will be limited to models running TiVo software. Discussion of the new Directv DVR should be done on boards such as avsforum and dbstalk. Current threads on these models will soon be closed and referred to those sites."

Would you people mind complying? As a TCF member, I can only appeal to any sense you might have of courtesy. Thanks.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Redux said:


> The following is long-standing Tivo Community Forum policy:
> 
> "Discussion of new Directv DVR models to be done off site.
> Its been decided that since this is a TiVo forum, discussion of DVRs will be limited to models running TiVo software. Discussion of the new Directv DVR should be done on boards such as avsforum and dbstalk. Current threads on these models will soon be closed and referred to those sites."
> ...


Well... frankly... the conversations do still apply to the TiVo products...
As it is a discussion (as is the OP of this thread), what future do they have left.

And no matter how you cut it... that discussion HAS to do with the HR20/R15.

And since I am the reason why that "rule" was posted, per the R15 review thread... and seperation was desired between the two product lines...

The intent of that "rule" was to keep the discussion of the non-TiVo products else where... not as a rule to protect TiVo from comparison and fair discussion on what the future of the platform would be.

If you think my post (and others) are in violation of that rule..
Report the thread, to let the moderators know... it is there decision.

(Oh... and the other reason why it was made, as TCF/DirecTV forums where the main place to get DirecTV information... regardless if it was TiVo related or not), prior to the growth of DBSTalk, and resurgence of other forum sites.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

RS4 said:


> What gets me is that people like Scott say they are telling us the truth about the HR20, but it just ain't so. That box is not up to the quality of the Tivos nor does it have the user interface of the Tivo.


I agree with you on those two points. The HR20 is not up to the quality of a Tivo nor does it have the Tivo interface.

But how are your points relevant? I can't get a Tivo that works with DTV and MPEG4 HD. So my only DVR option today is the HR20. Nothing I do will change that.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> The HR20 is not up to the quality of a Tivo nor does it have the Tivo interface.
> 
> But how are your points relevant? I can't get a Tivo that works with DTV and MPEG4 HD. So my only DVR option today is the HR20. Nothing I do will change that.


Our DirecTV visitors here have been saying that for nearly a year now.

I absolutely agree that if you're not in an area where you can get relatively multi-path-free OTA HiDef locals, and DirecTV offers you mpeg4 HiDef locals, you've got a situation to deal with because the Tivo HR10-250 is not an ideal solution for you.

But if you _can_ get your HiDef locals OTA, you are getting better quality with the Tivo HR10-250 than you can get now or are likely _ever_ to get from DirecTV's HiDef lite.

As far as the hundreds of other DirecTV HiDef channels, well I get around ten, such as they are, on my HR10-250 just fine thank you. What are the others available in early 2007 as the shills promised? Spring 2007? Summer 2007? Where's the beef?

Pie in the sky, yes I believe, it is coming someday. With the satellite now up, maybe even soon, if DirecTV encounters or creates no further shoot-itself-in-the-foot adventures. An array of DirecTV home shopping channels in glorious HiDef lite. Twenty variations of HiDef lite Encore Channels. I am SO excited and, truth be known, I will probably consider a non-Tivo HiDef DirecTV at that point. But I'd like to see the channels first, make some value-oriented decisions, if and when DirecTV actually delivers, at some value.

The need to panic-abandon the Tivo HR10-250 (or choose not to buy one as an interim solution) and panic-buy something from DirecTV that kinda works now, finally, is hopefully going to get better someday, and may someday soon get some channels that may be worth something, is a fiction created by our DirecTV visitors here for a purpose that seems puzzling on the surface. Altruists, all? Actually a few of them I believe think they are serving a useful purpose to the Tivo Community Forum. But the campaign as a whole is detestable.


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## mgulko (Feb 26, 2006)

RS4 said:


> I think it's more important to remind Direct that many of us enjoy the Tivo quality :up: and ease of use :up: and won't be moving until Direct forces us  , and then we may move to a competitor. It's about Tivo for me, it's not about Direct. :up:
> 
> Oh sure, they may have an HD channel that I might like to see, but I'm not signing up for a 2-year commitment using questionable technology, and supporting a company who has thrown the finger up to it's most valuable customers - Tivo HD customers.


I could not agree more. I have used DirecTV's DVR service. Doesn't compare with TiVo. I have used Adelphia & recently Comcast's DVR service. Also no comparison. The closest I have seen to ease of use is Verizon's FIOS service which gives an added feature of being able to record the show and watch it in any room that has DVR service enabled (according to my daughter). 

The point is, I do want HD TV. And I want my TiVo. It is the best service. If DirecTV feels compelled to ignore the users who welcomed them into their home with TiVo service and got them started in the DVR business, there are other companies out there vying for our business.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Redux said:


> As far as the hundreds of other DirecTV HiDef channels, well I get around ten, such as they are, on my HR10-250 just fine thank you. What are the others available in early 2007 as the shills promised? Spring 2007? Summer 2007? Where's the beef?


Where's the beef? How about ... where's your research skills? The HD nationals are planned for Fall 2007 - not spring, not summer. The satellite was just launched last week and the new HD channels should be available in September.

Here's a small sample of the channels coming this year:

HD Channels Coming in September:

A&E
Animal Planet
Big Ten Network
CineMax East
CineMax West
Discovery Channel (simulcast)
Food Network
HBO West
HGTV
History Channel
MHD (MTV)
NFL Network (Full-Time)
Science Channel
Showtime West
Starz! East
Starz! West
Starz! Edge
Starz! Comedy
Starz Kids & Family
The Movie Channel
The National Geographic Channel
TBS
TLC
The Weather Channel
Versus/Golf

HD Channels Fall 2007:

Bravo
Cartoon
Chiller
CNBC
CNN
FX
HBO2 East
HBO2 West
HBO Family East
HBO Family West
HBO Latino East
HBO Signature East
MoreMax East
Sci-Fi
Sleuth
Speed
USA​
Shopping channels? Indeed. 



> The need to panic-abandon the Tivo HR10-250 (or choose not to buy one as an interim solution) and panic-buy something from DirecTV that kinda works now, finally, is hopefully going to get better someday, and may someday soon get some channels that may be worth something, is a fiction created by our DirecTV visitors here for a purpose that seems puzzling on the surface. Altruists, all? Actually a few of them I believe think they are serving a useful purpose to the Tivo Community Forum. But the campaign as a whole is detestable.


Panic-abandon? No. Look at who's starting threads ... Potential DirecTV customers who hear about MPEG4, new HD channels, and want to know what their options are. It would be disingenuous to not answer about the full abilities and limitations of the HR10 in relation to OTA and MPEG4, and I've done my best to do just that: be forthright and honest about options.


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

drew2k said:


> Where's the beef? How about ... where's your research skills? The HD nationals are planned for Fall 2007 - not spring, not summer. The satellite was just launched last week and the new HD channels should be available in September.
> 
> Here's a small sample of the channels coming this year:
> 
> ...


I have some of these "HD" channels on my cable service and only about 30 to 40% of the content is shot in HD. It's kind of lame to call a channel HD unless at least 90% of your content is HD.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

seattlewendell said:


> I have some of these "HD" channels on my cable service and only about 30 to 40% of the content is shot in HD. It's kind of lame to call a channel HD unless at least 90% of your content is HD.


That's fine, that's your opinion. There are others who would insist the channel can't be called HD unless content was shot in HD 100% of the time, and others who would consider calling it an HD channel if at least 25% of the time content was shot in HD. When talking about what percentage is shot in HD that leads to arbitrary definitions of "HD channel". This then gets into a discussion of what is HD, which leads to rants about HD-Lite. In my opinion, a channel is "HD" if my TV detects 720p or 1080i ... whether or not the content was shot in HD.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

stevel said:


> 3) You don't want to pay $5 more a month (plus an additional $5 or so in power costs)
> .


it costs 5/ month in electric for one of these boxes?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

newsposter said:


> it costs 5/ month in electric for one of these boxes?


As a very rough and generic estimate, running a TiVo 24/7 costs $5 or less in electricity per month. Some boxes take less, but I use $5 as an upper limit to respond to those who say that adding a TiVo doubled their power bill.

You can figure it out yourself - a DTiVo (including HR10) consumes about 30kWh in a month. Figuring .15/kWh for power costs (that's what I pay on average), works out to a bit under $4.50 a month.


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## Televisionary (Oct 24, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> All I do now is simply direct people that ask about the HR20 over to DBSTalk, correct FUD and incorrect information, answer quick questions while directing over to another site.
> 
> However when I am attacked for simply doing what people want around here (HR20 talk somewhere else) then I respond in kind. If people wouldn't attack these threads would die quickly after 4 or 5 posts. But people just can't leave it alone. Funny how they fuel the discussions they don't want to see. Real funny.
> 
> ...


It has been an interesting 24 hours in this thread. Scott, your message which I replied to was (I think) the first I've ever read from you. I have no axe to grind with you, and I apologize for the confrontational tone.

Much of your response to me seemed directed at other posters' points, and not mine. I understand that you want to steer people to where they can learn about the HR-20. I myself need to decide how to switch to HDTV, so I'll be checking out dbstalk. Thanks for mentioning it elsewhere in the thread.

I think I understand now the answer to my real question. My initial impression was you were spreading FUD about TiVo's products, so I tried to inquire instead of pre-judging. I think you have a way of presenting your opinions as facts, and might not even be aware of it, given how contentious the issues are. I can see now you're probably exasperated by all the flamewars, and perhaps overstate your points as a pre-emptive defense.

That's what I want you to hear: your message and desire to help can get lost in the rigid presentation. It certainly did for me. And I offer my advice (free, and worth every cent) in a sincere effort to help, because I believe you sincerely want to help others. You and I disagree on the value of TiVo software. I can let it go at that. If you can present your opinions as opinions, and let people decide for themselves, I think you'll be heard better, and attacked less.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Televisionary:
There are other forums you may be interested in.
AVSForum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/index.php?
DBSForum
http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/
SatelliteGuys
http://www.satelliteguys.us/index.php?
HDTV Forum
http://pub1.ezboard.com/bdigitaltelevisionhdtvforum


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

RS4 said:


> What gets me is that people like Scott say they are telling us the truth about the HR20, but it just ain't so. That box is not up to the quality of the Tivos nor does it have the user interface of the Tivo.


This Tivo user interface is great non-sense is overrated. The fact is the Tivo interface in my eyes is so so. I used Replay before Tivo and that was an interface I liked. The HR10-250 is a slow beast. After the 6.x updates we have an audio droput black/green screen beta box that is a joke. Ohh and did I mention random reboots and short recordings? So add me to your 'Scott' list RS4, Tivo ain't that great either.


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## Marino13 (Jan 17, 2007)

gquiring said:


> The fact is the Tivo interface in my eyes is so so.


Wouldn't that be an opinoin and not a fact?

Also, my three HR10-250 beta boxes work flawlessy. Must just be a coincidence!


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Marino13 said:


> Wouldn't that be an opinoin and not a fact?


I think the term "in my eyes" makes it clear he's stating an opinion.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

It's all human nature. The first DVR interface you use becomes the one you like the best. Any change afterwards has all kinds of issues. You started with Replay so TiVo isn't very good. Your first DVR is TiVo so now the non-DVR is awful. I suspect that cable DVRs are better if you've never seen anything else before. Same goes if you were a dish customer and went with DirecTV and visa versa.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

JimSpence said:


> It's all human nature. The first DVR interface you use becomes the one you like the best. Any change afterwards has all kinds of issues. You started with Replay so TiVo isn't very good. Your first DVR is TiVo so now the non-DVR is awful. I suspect that cable DVRs are better if you've never seen anything else before. Same goes if you were a dish customer and went with DirecTV and visa versa.


Very good point for 75+% of users.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

gio1269 said:


> Very good point for 75+% of users.


I dunno....I think we're probably talking more like 83%+ of users.


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## gtadell (Oct 20, 2003)

I am long time Tivo user. My mother in law still uses my original Series 1 Tivo with a lifetime contract.

I would prefer to use my HR10-250 for some time to come but I am intrigued by having more channels in HD. I may look into adding and HR 20 and new dish sometime this year.

However, I am most concerned about NFL Ticket. Does anyone know if I will need the new box and dish to watch all the NFL ticket channels this Fall?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

No, they will broadcast NFLST one more season in mpeg2.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

Marino13 said:


> Wouldn't that be an opinoin and not a fact?
> 
> Also, my three HR10-250 beta boxes work flawlessy. Must just be a coincidence!


I guess _my eyes _ is something you missed, now I wonder if you maybe miss green screens, short recordings and audio dropouts also. And the HR10 is slow. Two neighbors and several co-workers have HR10's and we all experience the same issues. There are also plenty of 6.x complaints on this forum which make we wonder about you folks that claim they are flawless. I wonder why D* released so many versions of 6.x if they were 'flawless'


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## Televisionary (Oct 24, 2000)

JimSpence said:


> Televisionary:
> There are other forums you may be interested in.
> AVSForum
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/index.php?
> ...


 Thanks Jim! I'll check them out.


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## Marino13 (Jan 17, 2007)

gquiring said:


> I guess _my eyes _ is something you missed, now I wonder if you maybe miss green screens, short recordings and audio dropouts also. And the HR10 is slow. Two neighbors and several co-workers have HR10's and we all experience the same issues. There are also plenty of 6.x complaints on this forum which make we wonder about you folks that claim they are flawless. I wonder why D* released so many versions of 6.x if they were 'flawless'


No, I didn't miss it. I was just having fun with the way you worded the sentence. How many times does it have to be said that the majority of posts on these boards are from people having problems with their units. The HR10-250 owners who are not having problems are probably not posting because everything is fine. Obviously I have no idea on how many HR10-250's are having problems. Sure I had the missed recordings back in the winter and there where the FOX audio dropouts but since 6.3c my boxes are operating fine. I have no short recordings, no audio dropouts, no green screens and no reboot problems. Heck, my OTA works great 45 miles from St. Louis with my antenna in the attic above my daughters bedroom.

So when I see someone REPEATEDLY crabbing about the performance of their HR10-250 I make sure that the people that read these threads understand that their are those of us without problems. Why don't you call D* and have them send you a HR20 if you are so unhappy? I have three units that work fine. I definitely do not need anyone claiming I am not honest about their performance. That is just silly. If my HR10-250's did not work fine I would have thrown them away a long time ago. I believe you that you and your friends are having issues, however there are plenty of us that are not having issues. I also have no idea why D* released the bad versions of 6.3x. There were obvious issues. My point is that my 6.3d software on THREE different boxes throughout my home works fine. Therefore I find it necessary to defend their reliablility when a broad statement is made about their problems.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Marino13 said:


> No, I didn't miss it. I was just having fun with the way you worded the sentence.


In that case, you'd want to use a smilie, like  or , let the person you're responding to know you're just joshing with them.



Marino13 said:


> How many times does it have to be said that the majority of posts on these boards are from people having problems with their units. The HR10-250 owners who are not having problems are probably not posting because everything is fine. Obviously I have no idea on how many HR10-250's are having problems. Sure I had the missed recordings back in the winter and there where the FOX audio dropouts but since 6.3c my boxes are operating fine. I have no short recordings, no audio dropouts, no green screens and no reboot problems. Heck, my OTA works great 45 miles from St. Louis with my antenna in the attic above my daughters bedroom.
> 
> So when I see someone REPEATEDLY crabbing about the performance of their HR10-250 I make sure that the people that read these threads understand that their are those of us without problems. Why don't you call D* and have them send you a HR20 if you are so unhappy? I have three units that work fine. I definitely do not need anyone claiming I am not honest about their performance. That is just silly. If my HR10-250's did not work fine I would have thrown them away a long time ago. I believe you that you and your friends are having issues, however there are plenty of us that are not having issues. I also have no idea why D* released the bad versions of 6.3x. There were obvious issues. My point is that my 6.3d software on THREE different boxes throughout my home works fine. *Therefore I find it necessary to defend their reliablility when a broad statement is made about their problems.*


I have no problem with what you say and I think it's a realistic attitude, so maybe we can get away from the notion that TiVo is _flawless_ and adopt the more realistic attitude that it's a quality DVR platform that, just like every other electronic device, can experience glitches from time-to-time.

And re your last statement I bolded, maybe that can be taken into account when HR20 users defend their DVRs here.


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

boltjames said:


> At what point are you going to cut over to the HR20? Or is the goal to hold onto your HR10 until they pry it from your sweaty hands?
> 
> The HR20 is not as good as an HR10, but if its the only way to get 5x or 7x the amount of HD you've got now, isn't that the only option?
> 
> BJ


I own both now, but will keep my surviving 10-250 until ANY of the following happen (ranked in order of probability):

1. It finally dies. This is the most likely in my opinion, given that in my 8 years of ownership experience all DVR's eventually do.

2. DirecTV finally puts up enough HD channels, and specifically ones I care about, that makes it compelling. No reason to do this sooner than it actually happens though. The bird going up makes it probable (though I still recall the Hubble Telescope so I won't be counting chickens until they are broadcasting), but as to exactly when and what, I'll wait and see...

3. I finally give up on DirecTV and go with another service provider...

4. DirecTV makes it incompatible to receive ANY service (future card releases, etc.)

5. DirecTV sufficiently improves the HR20 so that I no longer prefer the 10-250. I have no inherent loyalty to the TiVo. Give me a UI that is as stable (for me) as mine 10-250, as easy to use the live program navigation keys and with a reliable remote and I'm there... Not holding my breath. They may improve future hardware, but I don't see them sending me an improved remote for my existing box any time soon...

6. DirecTV's new ownership by Liberty Media leads to new TiVo development and I get to trade it in for a new TiVo instead of the HR20. Not likely but not impossible either...


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Marino13 said:


> How many times does it have to be said that the majority of posts on these boards are from people having problems with their units. The HR10-250 owners who are not having problems are probably not posting because everything is fine.


This is not directed at you Marino, but it's funny how when a statement like this is made about DBSTalk in relation to the HR20 forums that it's all lies.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> This is not directed at you Marino, but it's funny how when a statement like this is made about DBSTalk in relation to the HR20 forums that it's all lies.


Really? Are there a lot of liars on DBS or something?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

FWIW, my HR10 has been trouble-free since I got it a year and a half ago.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

All forums suffer from the same affliction. Only those with problem equipment post them. If everyone with no problems posted (would they even look for help?) the forums would probably be swamped. 

This is true for any equipment support forum.


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## timb2112 (Dec 2, 2005)

kbohip said:


> I'm sitting here reading all of the various threads and I've come to the conclusion that I just don't know what I should do right now. I mean, I have an HR10-250 now that I like a lot, but I also don't want to wait TOO long to get an HR20. I'm thinking that maybe I've waited to change over to the HR20 as long as I can. The fall tv schedule is drawing ever closer and I'd like to have this resolved by then. It would also be nice to get CW in HD as well, which for me will only happen with the HR20.
> 
> It's been a while since I've checked into this but isn't there some sort of list that gives every city a date that Directv plans to rollout local HD service to?


I had an HR10-250 for 2+ years. It's now for sale on eBay. I was fearful of making the switch after reading all the posts on this forum. I am now very happy I did. The HR20 UI isn't as pretty or user friendly, but the unit basically does the same thing. One of the small things I like is the Native Resolution feature so I don't have to constantly change scanning rates when switching between HD and SD channels. OTA reception is better as well. My wife can even use it and that says a lot.

Call retention. Here is the deal I got:

Free HR20
Free Dish 
Free Install

Free HD Package for one year
$10 credit each month for next 12 months

My cost: $19.95 Handling


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

*



The HR20 UI isn't as pretty or user friendly, but the unit basically does the same thing.

Click to expand...

*This is endorsement that timb2112 made is so typical of a lot of Tivo users. Is this a glowing endoresement? No, they are few and far between. And that's why Tivo users thinking about an alternative need to read the other forums and look at the alternatives.


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## timb2112 (Dec 2, 2005)

RS4 said:


> This is endorsement that timb2112 made is so typical of a lot of Tivo users. Is this a glowing endoresement? No, they are few and far between. And that's why Tivo users thinking about an alternative need to read the other forums and look at the alternatives.


You fail to mention the HR20 is the ONLY alternative.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

timb2112 said:


> You fail to mention the HR20 is the ONLY alternative.


EXACTLY. I'm not sure why RS4 fails to get this one simple point. Like it or not the HR20 is your only alternative if you stay with DirecTV. 
That's it. 
That simple.

So if 4 out of 5 Tivo users still prefer the Tivo interface over the HR20, in what universe does it matter? 
It doesn't. 
RS4 likes to make a big deal about this as "proof" of how DirectTV screwed us all. 
Ok, great, DirecTV screwed us all. 
So why are you still with DirecTV then is all I ask?

RS4 simply has an axe to grind because DirecTV wronged him so much. He keeps talking about how much DirecTV doesn't care about it's users, blah, blah, blah. Ok, then leave please so we can get on with it with the only alternative out there. You're almost sounding like Vurbano Jr. (those from other forums will get that joke). 

I mean, would I have liked an MPEG4 Tivo for DirecTV? I'm sure I would have as we all would. But there isn't one and there isn't going to be one. If you want to say that is something bad against the HR20 then go ahead.

But I went into the HR20 with an open mind that Tivo wasn't the only game in town, mainly because I knew there was no choice. Why kill myself with constant "this isn't Tivo" tirades in my dreams.  And you know what? After about a month, maybe 2 I really came to like the HR20 interface and UI. I know it took me a few weeks when I got my first Tivo to figure out all the little ins and outs. After a few months it's like the back of my hand now with this new UI. It's all what you get used to. I go use one of my Tivo units now and I struggle because I forget how to do a certain function and say to myself "oh yea, that's how you do X on a Tivo".

Will everyone have the same good experience as I did? Definitely not. 
Will everyone like the HR20. Certainly not.
But to feel personally wronged like DirecTV kicked you in the groin is really taking the whole thing WAAAAY too seriously.

So then your choices are to join up at DBSTalk and help make it better in the ways you feel it needs to improve or go find a provider that can give you what you need. That simple.
And RS4, don't bring up the 2 yr commitment again, as I've debunked that many times for you as it's easy to get out of without paying and even Tivo has commitments.


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## thedeak08 (Jul 21, 2006)

From everyone's experience, when you get the deal on the HR20 or any other receiver for that matter, do you always have to have the installer come and hook it up? I mean is there any way they can just leave it at the front door and I can hook it up myself? I don't really like installers doing it cause the past 3 times they have done it they move all my stuff around and they don't set it up the way I want it, so I have to re-do everything. Everything is already run as far as cables, and it's easy enough to just hook up the cables and plug it in.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

timb2112 said:


> One of the small things I like is the Native Resolution feature so I don't have to constantly change scanning rates when switching between HD and SD channels.


can that be turned off? I guess it's because i have CRT but even SD looks better when it's at 1080vs 480i and there's really no difference 720 vs 1080 for HD. Other technologies i guess do need the change though.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

thedeak08 said:


> From everyone's experience, when you get the deal on the HR20 or any other receiver for that matter, do you always have to have the installer come and hook it up? I mean is there any way they can just leave it at the front door and I can hook it up myself? I don't really like installers doing it cause the past 3 times they have done it they move all my stuff around and they don't set it up the way I want it, so I have to re-do everything. Everything is already run as far as cables, and it's easy enough to just hook up the cables and plug it in.


If you are moving from an HR10 to the HR20, you will need and want the installer to show up, because they have to replace your current dish with a new 5-LNB dish. Only the new 5-LNB dish will see the new satellites, which will carry the new HD channels. (This new dish is compatible with your old receivers, so you can keep the old receivers active if you choose. If you call DIRECTV to order, make sure you let them know how many receivers you keep active, as DIRECTV will provide new multisiwtches as needed for your setup. If you need more than four lines total, you'll need a new multiswitch, the WB68, which also are required to pass the signals from the new satellite.)


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

newsposter said:


> can that be turned off? I guess it's because i have CRT but even SD looks better when it's at 1080vs 480i and there's really no difference 720 vs 1080 for HD. Other technologies i guess do need the change though.


Yes, with options that are very similar to what's available on the TiVo Series 3.

On the HR20 HDTV settings screen you can choose Native On/Off, and can enable which resolution settings your TV supports: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i. You can then cycle through only the formats you enabled using the remote's FORMAT button or the front panels RES (resolution) button.

As part of the HDTV settings, you can also choose Screen Format (Pillar Box, Crop, or Stretch) for non-HD content, and can change the Bar Color (Gray, Dark Gray, Black).


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

thedeak08 said:


> From everyone's experience, when you get the deal on the HR20 or any other receiver for that matter, do you always have to have the installer come and hook it up? I mean is there any way they can just leave it at the front door and I can hook it up myself? I don't really like installers doing it cause the past 3 times they have done it they move all my stuff around and they don't set it up the way I want it, so I have to re-do everything. Everything is already run as far as cables, and it's easy enough to just hook up the cables and plug it in.


If you order a new one from D* they won't just send it you. A replacement yes. Do you need a new dish? While the installer was working on the dish and multiswitch I hooked up the receiver. They probably would let you do anything you want as long as you sign off on the install. I'm like you, after they leave I move everything around to the way I want it. I think they are afraid to just send them out because some people might not have any idea how to set it up right.


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## thedeak08 (Jul 21, 2006)

Well, I'm having the new 5-LNB dish installed at my new place I'm moving into (at least I'm assuming it's the 5 LNB, I don't think they are still putting up the 3 LNB are they?) and we already have 2 HR10-250's and 2 SD Tivo's. Was just thinking about adding an HR20 for the computer room. The house was just built and everything is pre-wired, so I guess I can set up the new receiver myself while they install the dish like joed32 stated. I don't want to give up any of my Tivo's, just want to see what the HR20 can do with the new HD channels and all. Thanks


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## boltjames (Dec 21, 2002)

thedeak08 said:


> Well, I'm having the new 5-LNB dish installed at my new place I'm moving into (at least I'm assuming it's the 5 LNB, I don't think they are still putting up the 3 LNB are they?) and we already have 2 HR10-250's and 2 SD Tivo's. Was just thinking about adding an HR20 for the computer room. The house was just built and everything is pre-wired, so I guess I can set up the new receiver myself while they install the dish like joed32 stated. I don't want to give up any of my Tivo's, just want to see what the HR20 can do with the new HD channels and all. Thanks


When one of your STB's gets 70 HD channels and the other STB's get only 14, that's going to be the end of your fascination with Tivo. Take my advice: Sell the HR10's and use the money towards HR20's while the HR10's are still worth something. In a few months, you'll be able to pick up an HR10 for $25 on eBay.

BJ


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## thedeak08 (Jul 21, 2006)

boltjames said:


> When one of your STB's gets 70 HD channels and the other STB's get only 14, that's going to be the end of your fascination with Tivo. Take my advice: Sell the HR10's and use the money towards HR20's while the HR10's are still worth something. In a few months, you'll be able to pick up an HR10 for $25 on eBay.
> 
> BJ


I'm not sure it will. I tried out one of the standard DTV DVR's, the R15 I think, and was not impressed by it at all!! I absolutely love the Tivo's user interface, and plan on sticking with it till the end. If it comes down to having either HD access or Tivo, it's a tough choice.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

boltjames said:


> When one of your STB's gets 70 HD channels and the other STB's get only 14, that's going to be the end of your fascination with Tivo. Take my advice: Sell the HR10's and use the money towards HR20's while the HR10's are still worth something. In a few months, you'll be able to pick up an HR10 for $25 on eBay.
> 
> BJ


$25? And you're smoking....what?  Doubtful. Many are happy with the amount of HD programming it currently receives and don't need (or care) about the new programming. Irregardless of that fact, it'll still be a great DVR with 200 hours of recording time along with OTA HD once the MPEG4 shift occurs.

And I think you'd be stupid to sell: keep the HR10 as backup if you can.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

thedeak08 said:


> Well, I'm having the new 5-LNB dish installed at my new place I'm moving into (at least I'm assuming it's the 5 LNB, I don't think they are still putting up the 3 LNB are they?) and we already have 2 HR10-250's and 2 SD Tivo's. Was just thinking about adding an HR20 for the computer room. The house was just built and everything is pre-wired, so I guess I can set up the new receiver myself while they install the dish like joed32 stated. I don't want to give up any of my Tivo's, just want to see what the HR20 can do with the new HD channels and all. Thanks


Depends on the installer. They *should* put up a 5LNB since you have HD, even if you don't have a new receiver yet. To make sure you get a 5LNB make sure it's on the work order or go ahead and get an HR20 to add to the mix and then for sure you'll get the 5 LNB dish. You also need a new switch and with the amount of receivers you have you'll need to request the Zinwell 16 port switch. The WB68 only has 8 out and you're already at that before you get the HR20.

And you certainly don't need to get rid of your Tivo's. I've seen some guys post that their plan is to retire the older SD DirecTivo's and use the HR10's in their place since they record so much more.


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## thedeak08 (Jul 21, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> You also need a new switch and with the amount of receivers you have you'll need to request the Zinwell 16 port switch. The WB68 only has 8 out and you're already at that before you get the HR20.
> 
> Well I won't need the 16 port switch because the house was prewired with 4 lines in the living room(for Sunday Ticket haha) 1 to each of 2 bedrooms and 2 to the basement. So we only have 8 lines going throughout the house.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

If you order a HR20 from DirecTV, they send an installer. You can "buy" one at Costco (or perhaps other retailers), and if you don't NEED an installation I don't see why you couldn't just connect and activate it yourself.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

stevel said:


> If you order a HR20 from DirecTV, they send an installer. You can "buy" one at Costco (or perhaps other retailers), and if you don't NEED an installation I don't see why you couldn't just connect and activate it yourself.


Yep, you can get it at any retailer and install it yourself. BUT you won't get any deals like getting it for $19.95 like if you go thru DirecTV. So do you want a deal or do you want to install it yourself is what you'll need to choose between.

For my install I had already run all the cables and just had my install guy swap out the dish will I installed the new switch and receiver. He was happy to not have to do all that other stuff.


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## timb2112 (Dec 2, 2005)

newsposter said:


> can that be turned off? I guess it's because i have CRT but even SD looks better when it's at 1080vs 480i and there's really no difference 720 vs 1080 for HD. Other technologies i guess do need the change though.


The HR20 comes with the native feature turned off. All you have to do is set the scanning rates you want and the format button will adjust just like the up arrow on the HR10.


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## dfioc (Sep 24, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> RS4 likes to make a big deal about this as "proof" of how DirectTV screwed us all.
> Ok, great, DirecTV screwed us all.
> So why are you still with DirecTV then is all I ask?


Exactly. I don't read or post often but RS4's redundant rantings about a product he/she has never tried gets irritating. I've loved my H10 and did not want to replace it but I'm willing to give the H20 a chance (it gets installed on the 27th) and I'm certainly not going to post about how awful it is based upon postings by others. Not only is that unscientific, it's just plain dumb.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

thedeak08 said:


> Well, I'm having the new 5-LNB dish installed at my new place I'm moving into (at least I'm assuming it's the 5 LNB, I don't think they are still putting up the 3 LNB are they?) and we already have 2 HR10-250's and 2 SD Tivo's. Was just thinking about adding an HR20 for the computer room. The house was just built and everything is pre-wired, so I guess I can set up the new receiver myself while they install the dish like joed32 stated. I don't want to give up any of my Tivo's, just want to see what the HR20 can do with the new HD channels and all. Thanks





bonscott87 said:


> You also need a new switch and with the amount of receivers you have you'll need to request the Zinwell 16 port switch. The WB68 only has 8 out and you're already at that before you get the HR20.


thedeak09: One thing to be aware of is that the 16 port switch is not "free" with install, but you can get as many WB68s as you need free with the install. Make sure you tell the CSR how many lines you will need so that you get enough WB68s added to the work order as you'll need. The installer will just use splitters to connect the WB68 to the dish, and you'll be fine.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

stevel said:


> If you order a HR20 from DirecTV, they send an installer. You can "buy" one at Costco (or perhaps other retailers), and if you don't NEED an installation I don't see why you couldn't just connect and activate it yourself.


I see you put "buy" in quotes, but for anyone who doesn't know, the HR20s from Costco are leased receivers, just like most other retailers now. As such, they are the property of DIRECTV and can not be returned to Costco.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Correct.

As for the $19.99 "deals", you generally have to wheedle these out of "retention". I'll admit that I chose not to do that and paid $199 for my HR20. Go ahead and laugh. Costco wants $269.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

stevel said:


> Correct.
> 
> I'll admit that I chose not to do that and paid $199 for my HR20.


Where did you get it and is it owned or leased? I ask because I don't really care about the 2 year commitment, but I want to do my own install. I already put in the new dish a long time ago and don't need an installer to come out. So I'm just looking for the cheapest price that doesn't involve dealing directly with DirecTV.


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## thedeak08 (Jul 21, 2006)

I believe anytime you but from a retailer it will be leased. Ebay I think is the only was of actually owning a receiver.


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> Where did you get it and is it owned or leased? I ask because I don't really care about the 2 year commitment, but I want to do my own install. I already put in the new dish a long time ago and don't need an installer to come out. So I'm just looking for the cheapest price that doesn't involve dealing directly with DirecTV.


I would like to know as well.

Thanks,
Brett


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

this thread made me want to look at some online retailers....i checked roberts site and he doesnt even sell hr20s but he does have an hr15  (pics linked to dougs site i believe). And weaknees is 300.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Couple things.

Buy vs. Lease. Basically unless you (or someone else) pay $750+ for it then it's leased. Most HR20s on eBay are leased. You might get lucky and get an actual owned unit but someone, somewhere had to have paid DirecTV $750 for it. If you can verify that before hand then go for it. And good luck getting a CSR to activate it as owned BUT if they can verify somone paid full price for it then you can get it as owned.

Doing your own install just means you need to get it from someone other then DirecTV. That simple really. If you get it from DirecTV they will insist on installing it so you'll have to argue with them to see if you can do it yourself. It might be easier if you already have the 5 LNB dish and new switch so it's just a receiver add.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I ordered from directv.com - same deal offered to me on the phone. I know I could have done better if I wheedled but I didn't feel like it. Leased, of course, at that price. as Scott says.

I watched the install of the 5-sat dish (I see only three physical LNBs though one is wider than the other two, and the mount appears to have space for at least one more.) The dish is bigger and heavier than the 3-sat dish and the installer put up two wall braces to stabilize it. The actual aiming was MUCH simpler as the dish has built-in threaded adjustments that don't go out of whack when you tighten the clamp bolts as in the old style.

You can buy the dish from other sources. I'm not sure it saves you much money in the long run.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Yep, sounds like you have the Slimline (which is about all they install nowadays). The "main" LNB housing is 99/101/103 with 110 and 119 off to the side. The empty space from what I understand is just for looks to "even" it out.

I have the AT9 which has the main housing for 99/101/103 and the 110 and 119 are "sidecars" off to the side.
Pic -


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

stevel said:


> You can buy the dish from other sources. I'm not sure it saves you much money in the long run.


I bought a AT9 over a year ago. Yes, I paid for it, but I also installed it exactly where and how I wanted it (pole mount). I feel much more comfortable with my install than one they may do.

I suppose I can try calling first and just tell them that the AT9 is already in place. I just don't want to open up a can of worms. Especially since some 'moving' has been involved.


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## yngdiego (Dec 9, 2001)

timb2112 said:


> Call retention. Here is the deal I got:
> 
> Free HR20
> Free Dish
> ...


I got a similar deal. Free HR20, Free dish, free install, free HD for 6 months. My HR210 will be going to Craigs List after the installation!


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

yngdiego said:


> ...My HR210 will be going to Craigs List after the installation!


Why sell the HR10 (or HR210 as you called it)? I intend to keep mine for SD and OTA.


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## tigerdriver (Jul 11, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Yep, sounds like you have the Slimline (which is about all they install nowadays). The "main" LNB housing is 99/101/103 with 110 and 119 off to the side. The empty space from what I understand is just for looks to "even" it out.
> 
> I have the AT9 which has the main housing for 99/101/103 and the 110 and 119 are "sidecars" off to the side.
> Pic -


How many dual cables come out of the 5-LNB dish? Before I found out about the need for a new dish and receiver, I buried the two dual-cable lines from the 3-LNB dish in a 2" plastic pipe. Adding one more will be a tough pull--but doable; adding two more will require digging (yuk!).

Thanks,


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The built-in multiswitch has four outputs, just like the 3LNB.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Yea, the 3 LNB dish has 4 outputs just like the 5 LNB and all 4 are required to go to your multiswitch. That dish I showed you, you can't take the two small jumper cables from that LNB and run them separate to your switch. They have to go to the built in one on the dish so they all get "muxed" together for the outputs. The idea I had was that if your 119 separate dish was just a few feet away then you could run the cable out from that one to the input on the 5LNB dish that the 119 jumper goes to. Signals would be the same.


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## tigerdriver (Jul 11, 2003)

yngdiego said:


> I got a similar deal. Free HR20, Free dish, free install, free HD for 6 months. My HR210 will be going to Craigs List after the installation!


I'll be making this call soon, so I'd like to benefit from your experience:

(1) What was the phone number you called for Retention? (I have 1-800-824-9081)

(2) What was your negotiation strategy (e.g., threaten to leave, weep unconsolably, etc.)

(3) Did you get the impression that this was a standard retention offer? IOW, did they offer you all these things as a "package," or did you have to ask for them one-by-one.

(4) Did you have to play roulette, or did the first person you called give you the deal.

Thanks,


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

tigerdriver said:


> I'll be making this call soon, so I'd like to benefit from your experience:
> 
> (1) What was the phone number you called for Retention? (I have 1-800-824-9081)
> 
> ...


Just call 1-800-DIRECTV - there are no longer direct numbers for retention. See this thread at DBSTalk.com for what the deals are: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62089

It's quite long, so skim or jump right to the end to see what people are getting, and how they got it.


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