# Tivo Romaio OTA



## imacericg (Mar 15, 2008)

http://www.cnet.com/products/tivo-roamio-ota/

Cost: $50
Monthly: $15 - *The catch, there's no "lifetime" option.*


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

imacericg said:


> http://www.cnet.com/products/tivo-roamio-ota/
> 
> Cost: $50
> Monthly: $15 - *The catch, there's no "lifetime" option.*


I find it very interesting that TiVo even developed this box, but with no lifetime service I would have a very hard time recommending it.

You can buy the TiVo Basic with lifetime service for $700 and the cost will be offset in 36 months and the device will still have significant resale value and more flexibility if you change your mind in the future. But I can see people with a short view finding the $50 initial purchase price appealing.

I still think the OTA community is going to be a very hard place for TiVo to make a profit - but if they are going to try, they will need a pricing strategy that seems like a bargain compared to a full TiVo.

Maybe...

TiVo Basic: $200 / Service $15 / Lifetime $500
TiVo OTA: $150 / Service $12 / Lifetime $400


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

The fee kills it.

I can see paying $15/mo for a year or two to cover costs of and make a profit on the hardware, but after that the fee should drop down to $5 or so to cover updates and Tivo tax.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

Eligible for a multi DVR discount? There should be a monthly fee discount anyway, since the OTA data required is a lot less than required for cable. If they allowed lifetime, and dropped the monthly fee to $8 a month and $6 if there are other Tivos on the account, this would be a much better deal. This is really only for the cord cutter that needs a DVR with a cheap buy in price, and/or wants a simple, all in one device.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

bradleys said:


> I find it very interesting that TiVo even developed this box, but with no lifetime service I would have a very hard time recommending it.
> 
> You can buy the TiVo Basic with lifetime service for $700 and the cost will be offset in 36 months and the device will still have significant resale value and more flexibility if you change your mind in the future. But I can see people with a short view finding the $50 initial purchase price appealing.


I'm pretty sure the marketing team researched it enough to know that most OTA users in the market for a DVR would not pay that much upfront. It makes sense for them to leave out the lifetime option as that would encourage more high-end OTA users to go for the Roamio basic. They basically just created a lower-end basic targeted directly to OTA users who weren't strongly in the market for a DVR. Otherwise they would of already bought the Roamio Basic.


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## sixseven (Jan 6, 2005)

The pricing for this goes against the idea of cord cutting. I might pay as much as $300 for this, but I do not want any monthly recurring fees.

I switched to WMC from my old Series 3 (w/ lifetime) years ago. WMC is a bit of a headache, but it's manageable, and the wife is relatively happy. Recently I got an Xbox One, and I've been thinking of switching back to my Series 3 because it integrates with the XB1 better than WMC. Unfortunately, my Series 3 is dead due to the capacitor plague. I'm looking into getting it repaired, but then I saw this announcement.

TiVo, I am sure your Roamio OTA DVR is HANDS DOWN the best OTA DVR on the market. But, I will NEVER pay $180 a year to use it. Know your market. Cord cutters want better value.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

So far every comment in this thread agrees with what I was saying in the other thread. I still think this product is salvageable if they just offer lifetime. Even full price lifetime ($500 for new subscribers, $400 for existing ones) if the hardware is included in the price.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

sixseven said:


> The pricing for this goes against the idea of cord cutting. I might pay as much as $300 for this, but I do not want any monthly recurring fees.


Cord cutters had no problem paying for Aereo monthly. For people that want to pay more upfront, there is already an option (the Roamio Basic). I don't see how it is hard to understand that the Roamio OTA is not for everyone. Btw, being a cord cutter does not mean you won't pay for something monthly.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

For the Roamio OTA to be competitive, I think it needs to be a better Roku imitator than it is now, and it needs include some basic internet functionality. Give people a reason to buy a wireless keyboard. Give people a reason to not use a Chromecast. 

The TV landscape now is incredibly frustrating. Switching from DVR content to Netflix to Amazon Streaming via Chromecast to using a laptop or tablet for browsing or app locked content and then back again is a ****ty experience.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

rainwater said:


> Btw, being a cord cutter does not mean you won't pay for something monthly.


No, but it means you have a lower budget for monthly fees than paying for cable and you'll only subscribe to something if the value/cost proposition makes sense. In this case it doesn't.


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## sixseven (Jan 6, 2005)

rainwater said:


> Cord cutters had no problem paying for Aereo monthly. For people that want to pay more upfront, there is already an option (the Roamio Basic). I don't see how it is hard to understand that the Roamio OTA is not for everyone. Btw, being a cord cutter does not mean you won't pay for something monthly.


I'm not having any difficulty understanding the Roamio OTA, but I appreciate your concern.

It turns out not that many cord cutters used Aereo:

http://recode.net/2014/07/21/heres-how-many-subscribers-aereo-had-last-year/

For what it is, the Roamio OTA is overpriced. Period. TiVo absolutely provides the best experience and recording reliability, and they deserve to charge a premium for that. But this priced too high. It will fail as a product. $300 all in, and it will sell like gangbusters. (and make profit for TiVo, too)


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## rgr (Feb 21, 2003)

I'd probably get this if there were lifetime available. As it stands, the extra ~$120 for the Roamio Basic is almost worth the option to buy lifetime. Almost, but not quite. I've broken out my old series 3 with lifetime and use it for OTA exclusively. Only has 2 tuners, but it works.

If I could get the Roamio OTA for $300-$350 with lifetime, I'd do it just for the extra tuners.


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## spaldingclan (Aug 22, 2012)

Janko Roettgers of GigaOm confirmed with his contact at Tivo that there's NO LIFETIME offered.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

sixseven said:


> For what it is, the Roamio OTA is overpriced. Period. TiVo absolutely provides the best experience and recording reliability, and they deserve to charge a premium for that. But this priced too high. It will fail as a product. $300 all in, and it will sell like gangbusters. (and make profit for TiVo, too)


It is overpriced for you. The market for the Roamio OTA is certainly not the average TCF user. TiVo has never and probably never will price themselves at the bottom of any market.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

series5orpremier said:


> No, but it means you have a lower budget for monthly fees than paying for cable and you'll only subscribe to something if the value/cost proposition makes sense. In this case it doesn't.


Are you sure? I know plenty of people who "cut the cord" who are now paying about the same as what they paid for cable. That is the market this is going after.


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## sixseven (Jan 6, 2005)

rainwater said:


> It is overpriced for you. The market for the Roamio OTA is certainly not the average TCF user. TiVo has never and probably never will price themselves at the bottom of any market.


Maybe I'm reading too far in to your responses, but I don't like your tone. You have been condescending to me twice so far.

Here's a little background on me... Back in the day, I upgraded my Series 2 to the Series 3 when it was first released. If memory serves me correctly, I paid somewhere in the range of $700 or $800 for the Series 3 + lifetime. Cost is not an issue to me. Cost relative to value here is the issue with this Roamio OTA.

Not sure why you're such a TiVo apologist. I'm a big fan of Tivo. This product will fail because of the way it's priced. Let me show you:

The bottom of the market is arguably the $37 Mediasonic HomeWorx HW-150PVR. It provides basic DVR functionality, as well as playing various file formats. (mp4, mkv, etc) Out of 669 reviews on Amazon, it has a rating of 3.7 stars. Not bad for little $37 device. This is what cord cutters are buying.

The closest competitor to the Roamio OTA is (IMO) the Channel Master DVR+, which can be yours for a single, ONE TIME payment of $250. Cord cutters are also buying this. This is a new product, and while the experience is rougher that Tivo, Channel Master seems to be actively updating and improving the software.

You mentioned Aereo earlier. Check out this article from the consumerist.com. (great website, BTW)

http://consumerist.com/2014/05/31/you-can-make-your-own-aereo-at-home-but-is-it-worth-it/

Notice there are three off-the-shelf solutions that are recommended, and the Tivo is not one of them. Tivo is the OG cord cutter solution, but it has been forgotten. Because Tivo has priced itself out of the larger potential market.


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## takeagabu (Oct 7, 2007)

I think Lifetime is going to be offered. If you go to tivo's OTA page and click on the link that says "plus monthly service," it says that all Roamios can get lifetime subs except with certain promotional offers. The way it's worded doesn't seem to me like an entirely new box would be a promotional offer. Not to mention the fact that they are mentioning lifetime service in a popup from the OTA's page.

http://www.tivo.com/discover/antenna


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## HeatherA (Jan 10, 2002)

I would buy this in a heartbeat if lifetime was offered and I could be out the door at $450


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## wmolesworth (Aug 25, 2014)

If I put a Tivo with an over the air antenna SOMEWHERE in my network, can I watch OTA programming on ALL of my Tivos? I have a Roamio Pro and 3 Minis....


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

HeatherA said:


> I would buy this in a heartbeat if lifetime was offered and I could be out the door at $450


You can do that now by buying the existing basic Roamio with a coupon code off of an ebay seller.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

wmolesworth said:


> If I put a Tivo with an over the air antenna SOMEWHERE in my network, can I watch OTA programming on ALL of my Tivos? I have a Roamio Pro and 3 Minis....


Yep.


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## wmolesworth (Aug 25, 2014)

Nice


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

sixseven said:


> $300 all in, and it will sell like gangbusters. (and make profit for TiVo, too)


It would sell well but there is absolutely no way it would be profitable. The plan TiVo came up with is profitable and should be of interest to some small market.

The TiVo Roamio Basic with lifetime would be my recommendation to a friend. I would recommend a used TiVo Premiere or TiVoHD with lifetime before this Roamio OTA with monthly fee but more choices are a good idea and I like this one, just not for me. I don't pretend to know what everybody else might want.


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## sixseven (Jan 6, 2005)

Chris Gerhard said:


> It would sell well but there is absolutely no way it would be profitable. The plan TiVo came up with is profitable and should be of interest to some small market.
> 
> The TiVo Roamio Basic with lifetime would be my recommendation to a friend. I would recommend a used TiVo Premiere or TiVoHD with lifetime before this Roamio OTA with monthly fee but more choices are a good idea and I like this one, just not for me. I don't pretend to know what everybody else might want.


It's entirely possible I'm wrong. And to echo your words, I also don't know what everyone else will want. The articles and comments on The Verge and Engadget are pretty telling, however.

I would guess the device costs somewhere in the range of $120 to manufacture, probably less. They've already developed the software, so the cost there is minimal. At $300 (w/ lifetime), that leaves a good chunk of $ for the product to be a money maker. Their pricing strategy is a shame. You're right that this could be profitable as is, but they are only focused on a very small niche. They could be a bigger player in the OTA space.

I'll stop complaining. I'm disappointed at what I see as a missed opportunity. I'd preorder this now at $300. Hopefully they will correct their course. There's still time.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I believe you will see this product with a normal pricing scheme more sooner or later - but I think the best you can hope for is a nominal price break. $100 less than Roamio Basic I think would be considered aggressive.


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## rgr (Feb 21, 2003)

Wonder how revenue stream from all the advertising TiVo puts on the boxes would play into price point. 

I'd think the more of these units they can sell, even if at an initial loss and even with lifetime, the greater the downstream income to TiVo due to a larger advertising base.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

rgr said:


> Wonder how revenue stream from *all the advertising* TiVo puts on the boxes would play into price point.
> 
> I'd think the more of these units they can sell, even if at an initial loss and even with lifetime, the greater the downstream income to TiVo due to a larger advertising base.


You must see a lot more advertising than I do! I suspect the advertising accounts for a very small revenue stream.


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## rgr (Feb 21, 2003)

bradleys said:


> You must see a lot more advertising than I do! I suspect the advertising accounts for a very small revenue stream.


Small, but could be larger if they grew their base.

As to quantity of advertising, I consider anything in the discovery bar that isn't "My Shows" (only thing I have selected in settings) to be advertising. NFL, Bounty, shows I don't want or watch on another channel, etc.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

After first hearing about this new Tivo, I was very interesting. But then finding out there is no lifetime for it&#8230;.I'll pass.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Are people alos pricing this based on four tuners? If the competition only has two tuners, you would basically need to double their price to compare to the Roamio OTA to compare apples to apples.

I just know I'm glad I got my $175 Roamio Basic with a $6.95 monthly fee. I don't mind paying that indefinitely since I spend at least double that for lunch each day. Even my Hulu, Netflix, and Funimation subscriptions each costs more than that.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Resist said:


> After first hearing about this new Tivo, I was very interesting. But then finding out there is no lifetime for it....I'll pass.


So you're going to "Resist" the temptation?


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## takeagabu (Oct 7, 2007)

takeagabu said:


> I think Lifetime is going to be offered. If you go to tivo's OTA page and click on the link that says "plus monthly service," it says that all Roamios can get lifetime subs except with certain promotional offers. The way it's worded doesn't seem to me like an entirely new box would be a promotional offer. Not to mention the fact that they are mentioning lifetime service in a popup from the OTA's page.
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/discover/antenna


OK, I take it back. Ben Drawbaugh (from engadget) just confirmed with Tivo PR that Minis are NOT supported and lifetime is NOT an option. They said they will fix the page on the tivo site to reflect that...


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## spaldingclan (Aug 22, 2012)

Tivo Margret also confirmed on twitter (she works for Tivo)


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## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

I'm definitely not a fan of the $15 monthly fee, but opted to go OTA with Netflix, and "borrowed" accounts for HBO Go, Amazon Prime, Watch ESPN, Epix and Showtime Anytime via a Roamio base model. For the $25 per month I'm paying Tivo and Netflix, I can't complain. I paid $175 for my Roamio, but $50 sure would have been nice. I "might" have done Lifetime, but it was an experiment of my very first tivo, and seeing if I could live without satellite. So, I frequent this site daily, and would have been interested in this new offering. No idea if it will prove successful, but there are cable/satellite cutters out there like me willing to pay $15 per month. I'd be even happier with my Roamio if Prime, HBO, showtime and espn apps were available. Yeah, I have rokus (3),but I much prefer one box, really, really prefer it.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

OK, Tom Rogers has been a pretty smart guy, having made his share of mistakes at TiVo, but with the Roamio OTA pricing model, he is clearly the ding-bat of the year. Are they really that clueless at TiVo? The ONLY thing cord-cutters are in universal agreement on is their open hostility to monthly charges to DVR their OTA channels. "A monthly fee is not cord-cutting (in reference to DVR TV programming, not streaming services)," one stated on the comments at Cnet. And that is exactly how the cord-cutters think. The high numbers (I would say vast majority) of absolute effusion of enthusiastic die-hard lovers of the Channel Master DVR, even all its previous bad versions, is unmatched among cord-cutters in spite of even the latest Channel Master DVR+ being inferior to TiVo in just about every way---EXCEPT for ONE thing: it does not have a monthly fee, and this is the cord-cutter Holy Grail. "Is there a DVR to record OTA _*without a monthly fee*_?" is all cord-cutters ask on forums, etc. They know about TiVo, and admit it is superior, but they want ANY DVR that does NOT have a monthly fee. That's your cord-cutter market, Tom.

Channel Master is paying Rovi for its EPG, so there is a non-monthly fee model for providing EPG data for a DVR. Also, Channel Master (through Echostar, the manufacturer of the CM DVR+) also has and continues to provide software updates, so there is a non-monthly fee pricing model that also pushes software updates, as well.

I get that TiVo needs to have some sort of revenue, but they still don't understand the cord-cutter mentality and why they will run away from the best OTA DVR with it monthly price and go running, instead, to the inferior product that has no monthly fee.

It would be nice if TiVo would have or will do the following:
1. Bring back the OTA only subscription price. It was originally $9.99, bu that is still too high. Perhaps $5 per month, or better start at $1 per month. Then over time, slowly raise it dollar by dollar to peak at $5. After enjoying the TiVo, people will most likely tolerate the rise to $5.

2. Offer Lifetime

3. Raise the price of the Roamio OTA to be competitive to the new Channel Master DVR+ that has an internal HDD (more expensive than the model without the internal HDD at $399), but with no monthly charge, just like the successful Channel Master pricing model. That would probably get almost all the cord-cutter to cut their allegiance to the CM DVR+.

The Roamio is the cheapest model to manufacture, and the Roamio OTA is even cheaper since it only receives OTA, no cable, and none of the built-ins the higher models have, and now we learn this Roamio OTA will NOT support the Mini. TiVo will probably never provide the true cost of manufacturing a TiVo Roamio, but I feel confident that it is probably undre $100. TiVo was obviously thinking of finding a never ending source of revenue rather than actually getting cord-cutters to buy a Roamio OTA.

So Channel Master DVR+ has NOTHING to worry about. So sad. TiVo could have been truly competitive here and offered a REAL choice for cord-cutters. I was all set to recommend the Roamio OTA, but with its never ending monthly fee with no Lifetime option makes the TiVo tank. The Roamio is a neutered model, and the OTA version even MORE neutered. The TiVo OTA could have the same or very similar pricing model as the CM DVR+, but TiVo just doesn't know a universe that does not include a monthly fee for their products.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

rainwater said:


> Cord cutters had no problem paying for Aereo monthly. For people that want to pay more upfront, there is already an option (the Roamio Basic). I don't see how it is hard to understand that the Roamio OTA is not for everyone. Btw, being a cord cutter does not mean you won't pay for something monthly.


There were far FEWER Aereo subscribers than we were led to believe. It turns out that cord-cutters were equally offended by Aereo's monthly fee as they are to ANY monthly fee.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

rainwater said:


> I'm pretty sure the marketing team researched it enough to know that most OTA users in the market for a DVR would not pay that much upfront. It makes sense for them to leave out the lifetime option as that would encourage more high-end OTA users to go for the Roamio basic. They basically just created a lower-end basic targeted directly to OTA users who weren't strongly in the market for a DVR. Otherwise they would of already bought the Roamio Basic.


Cord-cutters have paid and still pay a pretty hefty price for the older and new Channel Master DVR. Cord-cutters are NOT averse to a one-time big chunk of cash purchase. On the other hand, they will do anything to avoid the monthly fee, and suffer with the old Channel Master models many limitations. While the latest Channel Master DVR+ is the best yet from Channel Master, it is still inferior to TiVo. As of this moment, I believe the DVR+ is incapable of recording only NEW shows. But cord-cutter are willing to live with that just to avoid the monthly fees. Read the reviews on all the Channel Master DVR's at Amazon and see how the only thing that counts is NO MONTHLY FEE, even for crap DVR's.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

rainwater said:


> Cord cutters had no problem paying for Aereo monthly. For people that want to pay more upfront, there is already an option (the Roamio Basic). I don't see how it is hard to understand that the Roamio OTA is not for everyone. Btw, being a cord cutter does not mean you won't pay for something monthly.


They will pay for streaming services, but NOT for their "FREE (OTA) TV." That's the mentality. I'm not criticizing it, but just sharing that EVERY cord-cutter I've met or I've read on forums and reviews just refuse to pay to record "Free TV" and feel that is why they stopped paying for cable or sat.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

@Series3Sub

Not to be terribly cynical, but what I think TiVo is hoping is that the average cord cutter is lower income and less sophisticated than higher end TiVo subscribers. And that these individuals will be lured in by the very low entry price point of this OTA product.

We know that it isn't a very compelling offering simply compared to a Raomio basic with lifetime service

What would be a more compelling product is a fully functional OTA unit that was priced about $200 less than the basic - with lifetime @ about $400

Or a similar ratio with a service fee - $100 plus a two year commitment.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

sixseven said:


> Maybe I'm reading too far in to your responses, but I don't like your tone. You have been condescending to me twice so far.
> 
> Here's a little background on me... Back in the day, I upgraded my Series 2 to the Series 3 when it was first released. If memory serves me correctly, I paid somewhere in the range of $700 or $800 for the Series 3 + lifetime. Cost is not an issue to me. Cost relative to value here is the issue with this Roamio OTA.
> 
> ...


Graet reply. I agree. However, Channel Master DVR+ now has a model with an internal 1TB HDD priced at $399. TiVo could match that price or at least be more competitive on the price and charge no monthly fee. Now, with the price being equal or close, the TiVo advantages of 4 tuners and everything else that makes TiVo the best OTA experience begins to look good to the cord-cutter, [just learned that the Mini is not supported] for multi-room viewing that the DVR+ merely recommends a Slingbox for that. Then the future purchase of a Stream begins to look good, too for which DVR+ would recommends a Slingbox. Yes, of the inferior Channel Master with all its bad older models sold so well that Channel Master is now on its 4th model and with a very loyal customer base, if the TiVo OTA were competitively priced to the DVR+ with internal HDD model would certainly fly off shelves (as the CM DVR's have--there are people who used to HUNT down the olders models a pay a premium for them) and make TiVo money with a no monthly fee business model.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

In addition to the lack of lifetime, the missing Mini support would be a deal breaker for me. Does it have a slower CPU or less memory? I cannot think why else Minis would not be supported.

-Ted


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

sixseven said:


> It's entirely possible I'm wrong. And to echo your words, I also don't know what everyone else will want. The articles and comments on The Verge and Engadget are pretty telling, however.
> 
> I would guess the device costs somewhere in the range of $120 to manufacture, probably less. They've already developed the software, so the cost there is minimal. At $300 (w/ lifetime), that leaves a good chunk of $ for the product to be a money maker. Their pricing strategy is a shame. You're right that this could be profitable as is, but they are only focused on a very small niche. They could be a bigger player in the OTA space.
> 
> I'll stop complaining. I'm disappointed at what I see as a missed opportunity. I'd preorder this now at $300. Hopefully they will correct their course. There's still time.


And we should add that it (pricing model with high purchase, but NO monthly) *IS* profitable for Channel Master and has been for YEARS with its older versions, and now the new DVR+.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

bradleys said:


> @Series3Sub
> 
> Not to be terribly cynical, but what I think TiVo is hoping is that the average cord cutter is lower income and less sophisticated than higher end TiVo subscribers. And that these individuals will be lured in by the very low entry price point of this OTA product.
> 
> ...


You make a good point. However, the $14.99 is STEEP for even a lower income family who have to weigh paying that much a month to record "FREE TV." Such people would likely pass on the Roamio OTA and do what a surprising number of (cheap) cord-cutters have done: hunt down the OLD Channel Master DVR's, as BAAAADDD as they were. Yes, just to save avoid a monthly fee. And a lot of cord-cutters keep requesting a "simple DVR" meaning without bell and whistles. They probably are thinking "not a TiVo" when they say that because TiVo is bells and whistles, as it is the best OTA experience DVR. Now, if the monthly fee were $5, they would probably buy the TiVo OTA.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

OK, the news that the Mini is NOT supported is a huge deal-breaker for me. I guess that leaves adding a Slingbox (the new M1?)for mult-room viewing--although not independent viewing experience--but that is the same solution for the Channel Master DVR+. So, it looks like TiVo even cut intself even further from the cord-cutters by not having a compelling upgrade accessory that would have been true whole home DVR.

And no, to whomever mentioned it, the 4 tuners is absolutely not compelling to the cord-cutters IF they have to pay a monthly fee. They are willing to do without. They know that the DVR+ is inferior to a TiVo and are willing to do without and go with an inferior product with its limitations because the Channel Master DVR+ has no monthly fee. People who purchase and then review the Channel Master DVR's note the machine's limitations and compromises, but still LOVE it. Why? No monthly fees. Just what they were looking for. A simple, plain, basic DVR to record their shows with at least 2 tuners. The love people have for their Channel Masters is almost as strong as a TiVo lover's.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm guessing this pilot by Tivo is priced as it is to NOT compete with the CM DVR. In the same way cell offers purposely look different from each other, they don't want to make such a direct comparison to a fixed offering.

Lots of folks joined the "free" premiere offer a few years ago, I'm not going to be surprised if many join this offer as well. 

How many cord cutters do not supplement their viewing with Netflix, Hulu, iTunes, or some other service offered from a "stick" offering?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

@Series3Sub - if I were you I would be looking for a used Premiere with lifetime. But, I still think the best all around deal for OTA device considering extend ability and future proofing would be a lifetime Roamio Basic.

$500 with the MSD discount. You can add Mini's as your need increases, all the new OTA services and stream with an add on stream.

A little steep, bit you are saving all that money from a cable bill anyway!


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

Series3Sub said:


> And we should add that it (pricing model with high purchase, but NO monthly) *IS* profitable for Channel Master and has been for YEARS with its older versions, and now the new DVR+.


how do you know? you are now talking more non sense on top of the non sense. Channel Master sells antennas, rotors and what not. how do you know the DVR's have been profitable? show me. maybe their dvr's are loss leaders? Maybe Echostar is market testing a consumer side business in the US thats not Dish Network and letting Channel Master deal with the headaches.

you do know that Channel master does not make the DVR+ or their other DVR's right? they resell Echostar's and slap their name on it. The DVR+ is the american version of Echostar's DVR for Europe thats been out for years.

Tivo is a software and marketing company, pricing strategies are different than a reseller like Channel Master.

Oh, and you keep repeating that ALL cord cutters do not want monthly fees is non sense. Some might, but who the hell actively searches for monthly fees? do you want monthly fees?

I haven't paid for cable in 4 years and we make $160k +. we dont pay for it because we don't watch it. your attitude comes across that i should pay for it even if i dont watch it. thats stupid. do you pay for things that you dont use? i pay for netflix, amazon prime, mlb.tv, mls live and a service that gets rid of blackouts, all with monthly fees.

Ive always had great OTA reception and when the time came that i was able to watch sports without blackouts and for less than what i was paying, i made the jump. its not because i didnt want to pay the monthly fees its because there was no need.

Do you go off on your friends for reducing the data allowance on their cell plans because they don't use it all and tell them that they are data cutters becasue they REFUSE to have monthly bills?


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

ncted said:


> In addition to the lack of lifetime, the missing Mini support would be a deal breaker for me. Does it have a slower CPU or less memory? I cannot think why else Minis would not be supported.
> 
> -Ted


The omission of support for the Mini is indeed strange.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bradleys said:


> @Series3Sub
> 
> Not to be terribly cynical, but what I think TiVo is hoping is that the average cord cutter is lower income and less sophisticated than higher end TiVo subscribers. And that these individuals will be lured in by the very low entry price point of this OTA product.
> 
> ...


But without Mini support I would think it would be a non starter anyway. Even with the higher monthly price I figured the $50 Roamio could at least be used with a mini. But without being able to use a mini, and the higher monthly cost with no lifetime option, the Roamio OTA seems mostly worthless.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Omitting Mini support is senseless all-around. If these are low-profit customers, it defies logic to shut down the chance to upsell them a ludicrously high-margin accessory, potentially more than one.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Crippling the mini service makes no sense at all to me...


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

I believe the lack of Mini support is related to a lower-end Broadcom chip in the Roamio OTA.


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## BriHiFi (Jan 16, 2013)

The only consumer I would think this appeals to is the impulse cord cutter. A low upfront cost, only locked in for service for one year and if they don't like it they can return to cable or sat. All for less than what a standard DVR would cost retail. Long-term customers will obviously buy the TiVo basic. Personally, I do better with a higher device price and a lower service fee. The sticker shock of $15 a month for free TV is a bit much. After all how much does it really cost them to provide the service. Not just over the air but cable as well.

I cut the cord with DirecTV 15 years ago. I joined the wonderful world of DVR about 10 years ago. My first DVR was a Sony (@ $600. Retail). It only had one tuner, no TV show offload and the guide was free. It did it's job well until the guide was no longer provided. At the time I thought anyone who is over the air only that bought a TiVo was a sucker to pay a monthly service fee. I purchased a TiVo premiere for $200 with three months free service and nine months at $15 per month. Which was perfect because at that time there were discussions in this community about the upcoming new DVR model eventually named TiVo Romeo and didn't want to pay a lifetime subscription on a soon to be outdated DVR. My TiVo Romeo is a much better DVR than the Sony, it's not even close. At roughly the same cost, TiVo is the best DVR available. I currently have two Romeo basics and a TiVo Stream. As a comparison, I also have a Mac Mini used as an EyeTV DVR which records and converts TV shows to iTunes automatically and then can be streamed to any additional TV using an Apple TV device. There is a TV Guide service fee of $19.99 per year. 

TiVo needs to find a more efficient way of making money. Example: I purchased two brand-new TiVo Premiers for $30 each at Best Buy when the Romeo became available. I wanted to use them as a Mini alternative. I tried to activate service but was not offered the $99 lifetime offer. So now I have two HDMI cables, two spare remotes, power cords and hard drives. I gave TiVo a chance to make money. That being said, I don't think they're going to make any money selling $50 DVR's without mandatory activation at point of sale. At $50 it still makes for a good parts box. TiVo's profits gone, bye-bye. I don't know what they're thinking.

I have had experience installing DirecTV and cable DVR's in the past. DirecTV DVR's are pretty good, not as good as TiVo but pretty good. Cable DVR's suck and are a pain to use in comparison. Now if cable gets a DVR that functions as well as DirecTV's DVR, TiVo could be in trouble. And TiVos' main customer base might end up being cord cutters/over the air users.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

sbiller said:


> I believe the lack of Mini support is related to a lower-end Broadcom chip in the Roamio OTA.


Less than in the Premiere?


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

sbiller said:


> I believe the lack of Mini support is related to a lower-end Broadcom chip in the Roamio OTA.


The chip is different than the base roamio?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

bradleys said:


> Less than in the Premiere?


Yeah that's the head-scratcher - if a 3-year old, 4-tuner Premiere can support Minis how in the world would they buy a chip today that's worse?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yeah that's the head-scratcher - if a 3-year old, 4-tuner Premiere can support Minis how in the world would they buy a chip today that's worse?


If it can't support a Mini because of a hardware limitation. Then it must have been done to save money. If it's actually a hardware limitation.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

I was just scanning (again) through the Broadcom product brochure. Based on earlier reports, I think the Roamio has the BCM7241. I seem to recall some indications that the BMC7241 supported higher speed channel changes between the base unit and satellite units (e.g, the Mini). I can't find that info in the public domain. I doubt TiVo would drop to a slower 2K DMIPS processor but they could to save a few dollars per unit. With the new Haxe code and less tuners to manage, a 2K DMIPS BCM7231 could be an alternative processor for the TiVo OTA.

I think we may also see that the new TiVo OTA doesn't support MoCA natively so that would remove some additional circuitry on the motherboard.


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## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

Not all "cord-cutters" are the same. Many no longer want to pay cable or satellite $40, $50, $75, $100, or even $150 per month. Some don't want to start paying cable or satellite. I still think you can be a "cutter" and be willing to pay tivo monthly. Many will not pay, but many will. I am. If tivo did appropriate research, they apparently believe that there is enough of a market to proceed with this new product. Only time will tell if their bet will pay off, and they also have the option to make Lifetime available in the future.


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

Came here to find out about this new unit (just heard about it on the news) but the absence of Lifetime has already answered my quest. Not interested. I was interested since my 3 is getting old in the tooth and I've never had cable/satellite so the other Tivo offerings with cable support but not very good antenna support also put me off. I had checked with Tivo when my harddisk died last year. New hard disk. I may also have to replace those capacitors. So this new OTA device seemed initially appealing. 

Maybe they will come around in a few months or within the year. They've "eliminated" Lifetime a number of times only to reintroduce it or allow it to be transferred for a fee. We shall see .....


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

The base Roamio doesn't have a built-in MOCA bridge.

Apart from removing the CableCard connector (though I bet the traces are still there) why would Tivo bother to make any other circuit changes?



sbiller said:


> I was just scanning (again) through the Broadcom product brochure. Based on earlier reports, I think the Roamio has the BCM7241. I seem to recall some indications that the BMC7241 supported higher speed channel changes between the base unit and satellite units (e.g, the Mini). I can't find that info in the public domain. I doubt TiVo would drop to a slower 2K DMIPS processor but they could to save a few dollars per unit. With the new Haxe code and less tuners to manage, a 2K DMIPS BCM7231 could be an alternative processor for the TiVo OTA.
> 
> I think we may also see that the new TiVo OTA doesn't support MoCA natively so that would remove some additional circuitry on the motherboard.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

sbiller said:


> I think we may also see that the new TiVo OTA doesn't support MoCA natively so that would remove some additional circuitry on the motherboard.


EDIT/INSERT: ncbill posted before I got this posted.

Since all the pictures I've seen of the new OTA model are of a rebadged base-Roamio, which lacks built-in MoCA to begin with, there's no MoCA to take off the board, if they presumably used the original base-Roamio board as a reference design. I doubt TiVo made it from scratch. I'd expect the same board with less components on it. Then again, that goes by the logic of making sense, which I just don't see for this product. It made sense, somewhat, before the no-lifetime service (ever) part came up. If TiVo is planning on (or considering) taking lifetime service off the table (as they have in the past), for new activations, at some point, then it makes sense again (in a new context). But, I would also worry about the direction TiVo is going. It would be a very bad omen of what's coming beyond that step.

I'm not going to argue about it. But, even before Bigg said it seemed like TiVo wanted this product to fail, so they could prove there was not enough of an OTA market, that they might be able to wash their hands of it, and point out this product to those still demanding TiVo needs to satisfy the OTA market (better), as "We tried that, and look what happened".


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## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

Good article in the Wall Street Journal today. It's about cable cutting and Roku but there is a side article (shadow box) on the Tivo OTA and explains it is everything Roku but w/ recording capability. In their opinion, that's a winner. 

So it's not a product for the existing Tivo customer base but instead a new product from TIVO for those wanting to cut their cable, use Netflix/Amazon, etc. and still have DVR capablility.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

fred2 said:


> Came here to find out about this new unit (just heard about it on the news) but the absence of Lifetime has already answered my quest. Not interested. I was interested since my 3 is getting old in the tooth and I've never had cable/satellite so the other Tivo offerings with cable support but not very good antenna support also put me off. I had checked with Tivo when my harddisk died last year. New hard disk. I may also have to replace those capacitors. So this new OTA device seemed initially appealing.
> 
> Maybe they will come around in a few months or within the year. They've "eliminated" Lifetime a number of times only to reintroduce it or allow it to be transferred for a fee. We shall see .....


Fred, just look at the Roamio Basic - since you have a TiVo S3, you will have the Multi unit discount and can get lifetime service.

$200 for the box, plus service. The Roamio is significantly better than your S3 and the Basic will give you 4 tuners, works with OTA and will work with the TiVo Mini's


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Fred, just look at the Base Roamio - since you have a TiVo S3, you will have the Multi unit discount off the lifetime service.

$200 for the box, plus service. The Roamio is significantly better than your S3 and will give you 4 tuners, works with OTA and will work with the TiVo Mini's


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## wmolesworth (Aug 25, 2014)

Perhaps the lack of support for the Mini due to a lack of MoCa? If there is a Roamio pro in the house connected to some Minis, would this negate the limitation? 

I am thinking at this point, for me to add OTA to my existing setup, perhaps its easier to simply add a Roamio basic. I currently have a Roamio Pro and three minis... I could add a Roamio basic and get the same functionality as the Roamio OTA, right?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmolesworth said:


> Perhaps the lack of support for the Mini due to a lack of MoCa? If there is a Roamio pro in the house connected to some Minis, would this negate the limitation?
> 
> I am thinking at this point, for me to add OTA to my existing setup, perhaps its easier to simply add a Roamio basic. I currently have a Roamio Pro and three minis... I could add a Roamio basic and get the same functionality as the Roamio OTA, right?


The OTA Roamio is not targeted at people who already have a roamio pro and Minis. Those people would get a Roamio Basic. Which is what I have for OTA to go with my three minis, Roamio pro, and premiere.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> If it can't support a Mini because of a hardware limitation. Then it must have been done to save money. If it's actually a hardware limitation.


It's hard to imagine that TiVo could save enough money by using cheaper chips to even pay for the cost of a hardware redesign. And removing cable tuning capability might allow certain marketing options, but most other hardware downgrades would be insanely shortsighted. After the debacle caused by the Premiere's hardware shortcomings, if TiVo (supposedly the elite DVR solution) did cheap-out and cripple the Roamio OTA, I would start to wonder if they have some kind of corporate death wish. If it's as bad as we've been led to believe, they may as well just rename it the "Roamio DOA" and start selling it to remainder outlets. Better software and lifetime subscriptions could be added later, but anemic hardware is an incurable flaw.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Does Moca even play nice with antenna signals?


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> Does Moca even play nice with antenna signals?


yes


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Old Hickory said:


> Good article in the Wall Street Journal today. It's about cable cutting and Roku but there is a side article (shadow box) on the Tivo OTA and explains it is everything Roku but w/ recording capability. In their opinion, that's a winner.
> 
> So it's not a product for the existing Tivo customer base but instead a new product from TIVO for those wanting to cut their cable, use Netflix/Amazon, etc. and still have DVR capablility.


It would be a winner if there wasn't a $15/mo fee for forever and the streaming side of things had Amazon Prime etc.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> It would be a winner if there wasn't a $15/mo fee for forever and the streaming side of things had Amazon Prime etc.


The 9.99 antenna code a few years back seems like the right price point.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Old Hickory said:


> So it's not a product for the existing Tivo customer base but instead a new product from TIVO for those wanting to cut their cable, use Netflix/Amazon, etc. and still have DVR capablility.


And those cord-cutters ditched cable to get away from monthly fees, now Tivo wants their $15/mo. for what folks view, rightly or wrongly, as basically just guide data. They don't care about the business model behind the cheap price.

All you have to do is peruse any number of topics in the AVS HDTV Recorders forum, or the comments to the articles about this Tivo at engadget, verge, etc. These folks hate paying Tivo for anything other than the box.

Which is why it should have been priced at $399 or so all-in as an option for those opposed to fees, and why this box will be DOA and will quickly need a new pricing model (or be discontinued) anyway. There's not enough uninformed consumers out there for this market.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> And those cord-cutters ditched cable to get away from monthly fees


TiVo isn't going after those "cord-cutters". Cord-cutters are no longer a limited group that are only doing it to save money. There are plenty of younger people out there who are more than willing to pay monthly fees.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Sure, we'll see. Doesn't matter whether you call them cutters or nevers, they ain't gonna pay Tivo every month.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

OTA'ers account for ~30% of Tivo's users, surprisingly. I believe this box is squarely meant to re-monetize the existing OTA userbase already sold on the Tivo story.

Any growth outside Tivo's bubble is coincidental.

I mean let's face it, Tivo is horrible at growing share and they haven't made a serious effort in a decade. They just want to retire older hardware that costs them more to support, and re-monetize those customers through an upgrade, the advertising (and datamining) mechanisms the modern UI offers, and also control support costs.


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

bradleys said:


> Fred, just look at the Roamio Basic - since you have a TiVo S3, you will have the Multi unit discount off the lifetime service.
> 
> $200 for the box, plus service. The Roamio is significantly better than your S3 and the Basic will give you 4 tuners, works with OTA and will work with the TiVo Mini's


I will have to look at it. But when I last spoke with them (I have not done any research before checking in here), and that may be before the model you mention, they said that there were no new "ANTENNA" models and that 4-channels was not possible with antenna???


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

fred2 said:


> I will have to look at it. But when I last spoke with them (I have not done any research before checking in here), and that may be before the model you mention, they said that there were no new "ANTENNA" models and that 4-channels was not possible with antenna???


The 4 tuner base Roamio allows either cable or local antenna - you choose at setup.

The 6 tuner Roamios (Plus / Pro) cannot connect OTA


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Sure, we'll see. Doesn't matter whether you call them cutters or nevers, they ain't gonna pay Tivo every month.


But they already do. I clearly remember the antenna only deal (for $9/month) was very popular.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, and this is $15. Netflix is what, $8? (Just an example, don't start in on how Netflix != Tivo.)

It all adds up.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> So you're going to "Resist" the temptation?


No temptation to resist. With no lifetime option, I'm just not interested in this product.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Resist said:


> No temptation to resist. With no lifetime option, I'm just not interested in this product.


You DO realize that was just tongue in cheek based on your user ID here, right?


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## DEC2955 (May 3, 2009)

Comment: I was thinking of getting this unit .... Until I read _No _MINI_SUPPORT_!! I have a basic Roamio for OTA ONLY, MAINLY for recording local LP-UHF station "retro TV" but is tied into my home network/MINI setup to watch these shows in another room.. The lack of this support is not understandable? I also have a 4Tuner premier w/basic cable...
As far as the fee's.. The \\Rental Fee// for DVR hardware from my local cable is higher than the TiVo guide fee.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

sixseven said:


> The pricing for this goes against the idea of cord cutting. I might pay as much as $300 for this, but I do not want any monthly recurring fees.
> 
> I switched to WMC from my old Series 3 (w/ lifetime) years ago. WMC is a bit of a headache, but it's manageable, and the wife is relatively happy. Recently I got an Xbox One, and I've been thinking of switching back to my Series 3 because it integrates with the XB1 better than WMC. Unfortunately, my Series 3 is dead due to the capacitor plague. I'm looking into getting it repaired, but then I saw this announcement.
> 
> TiVo, I am sure your Roamio OTA DVR is HANDS DOWN the best OTA DVR on the market. But, I will NEVER pay $180 a year to use it. Know your market. Cord cutters want better value.


I'm a cord cutter ( have been for 2 years) and yesterday bought a Roamio, for use with a Walltenna HDTV indoor antenna. It works perfectly, and now I can record all the network shows that are on at inconvenient times. I was paying $8 a month for Hulu Plus with my Roku, which I now cancelled, because of my new DVR. So really, the subscription charge is only $7 more a month than I was paying, and I get a great scheduling Guide with the Tivo. Well worth the money in my opinion. Compared to my former $100 a month cable bill, it's a real bargain.


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## Ikrion (Aug 31, 2014)

DEC2955 said:


> Comment: I was thinking of getting this unit .... Until I read _No _MINI_SUPPORT_!! I have a basic Roamio for OTA ONLY, MAINLY for recording local LP-UHF station "retro TV" but is tied into my home network/MINI setup to watch these shows in another room.. The lack of this support is not understandable? I also have a 4Tuner premier w/basic cable...
> As far as the fee's.. The \\Rental Fee// for DVR hardware from my local cable is higher than the TiVo guide fee.


Based off the tweets responding to this question, it was really about price. The OTA is a cut down version of the Roamio box.

The lack of Mini support, the inability to buy lifetime (where they are really going to make their money), and no way to add a cable card in the future makes this combination a deal breaker for me.

However, I can imagine a good amount of OTA-only users that would go after this as their solution for a DVR when not having cable. The interface will be excellent, and so will the service.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

I posted this in the other OTA unit thread: 

"My theory is that they're going to announce and release a bunch of new apps to make it a DVR + roku (already announced Amazon Prime and Vudu, so maybe ESPN, HBOGo, etc.), and also release a roku app (which would explain why no mini support) for access on secondary TVs, making this unit the cord cutters all in one "dream" device and to try to justify the monthly cost. I think they're doing it as a solution and response to Aereo's demise and as competition to Simple.TV and Tablo.  "


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> I posted this in the other OTA unit thread:
> 
> "My theory is that they're going to announce and release a bunch of new apps to make it a DVR + roku (already announced Amazon Prime and Vudu, so maybe ESPN, HBOGo, etc.), and also release a roku app (which would explain why no mini support) for access on secondary TVs, making this unit the cord cutters all in one "dream" device and to try to justify the monthly cost. I think they're doing it as a solution and response to Aereo's demise and as competition to Simple.TV and Tablo.  "


Interesting possibility raised here. Removing MoCA probably saved a few dollars. I could also envision Amazon fireTV support.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

HarperVision said:


> "My theory is that they're going to announce and release a bunch of new apps to make it a DVR + roku (already announced Amazon Prime and Vudu, so maybe ESPN, HBOGo, etc.), and also release a roku app (which would explain why no mini support) for access on secondary TVs, making this unit the cord cutters all in one "dream" device and to try to justify the monthly cost. "


Maybe. I think a Roku app is likely someday (as well as FireTV and game consoles), but the video will still need to be transcoded to be playable on the Roku. They would need a Roku+Stream in lieu of a Mini.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> You DO realize that was just tongue in cheek based on your user ID here, right?


Yes, but I don't think the topic in this thread is a laughing matter.

I love Tivo, but hate it when they want us to keep paying them monthly. The point of getting a Tivo for me, was to save in the long run. Granted it has the best interface on the market, but money is really the deciding factor. Over the years I've talked up Tivo to friends and family, but there response has always been"yea but you have to pay a money fee to use it". That's when I'd talk about the lifetime subscription and how in the long run they would actually save money. People that have never tried Tivo, want to but don't want a monthly fee. To them, if they are going to pay that then they might as well rent a cable company box, which would replace it should it fail.

Just saying.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

sbiller said:


> Interesting possibility raised here. Removing MoCA probably saved a few dollars. I could also envision Amazon fireTV support.


why do you keep saying that? the base doesnt support moca so how would removing the non existant moca from the base romaio to make the ota roamio save a few bucks?

most of the costs saved on the OTA roamio are the cable labs licensing fees from removing the cable card circuitry.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Resist said:


> Yes, but I don't think the topic in this thread is a laughing matter.


Uhhhhhhh, ok. It is just TV after all. 



Resist said:


> I love Tivo, but hate it when they want us to keep paying them monthly. The point of getting a Tivo for me, was to save in the long run. Granted it has the best interface on the market, but money is really the deciding factor. Over the years I've talked up Tivo to friends and family, but there response has always been"yea but you have to pay a money fee to use it". That's when I'd talk about the lifetime subscription and how in the long run they would actually save money. People that have never tried Tivo, want to but don't want a monthly fee. To them, if they are going to pay that then they might as well rent a cable company box, which would replace it should it fail. Just saying.


I'm pickin' up what you're puttin' down!


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Aero 1 said:


> why do you keep saying that? the base doesnt support moca so how would removing the non existant moca from the base romaio to make the ota roamio save a few bucks?
> 
> most of the costs saved on the OTA roamio are the cable labs licensing fees from removing the cable card circuitry.


I was going to ask the same question. Multiple people have corrected him in more than one thread, stating that the Roamio OTA is a stripped down base-Roamio. The base Roamio, which never had MoCA (or even a TiVo Stream) built in, in the first place, so there was nothing to remove here on these fronts.

You can't remove something, that was never put in, in the first place.

They have found other things to not include, in order to make a base Roamio into a less than a "less than" base model. If it didn't have OTA in the name, we'd be calling it the sub-base Roamio, or RABID (Roamio Absolute Base Incapacitated Design).


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> I was going to ask the same question. Multiple people have corrected him in more than one thread, stating that the Roamio OTA is a stripped down base-Roamio. The base Roamio, which never had MoCA (or even a TiVo Stream) built in, in the first place, so there was nothing to remove here on these fronts. You can't remove something, that was never put in, in the first place. They have found other things to not include, in order to make a base Roamio into a less than a "less than" base model. If it didn't have OTA in the name, we'd be calling it the sub-base Roamio, or RABID (Roamio Absolute Base Incapacitated Design).


Or how about the "Roamio Basement"?


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

nooneuknow said:


> I was going to ask the same question. Multiple people have corrected him in more than one thread, stating that the Roamio OTA is a stripped down base-Roamio. The base Roamio, which never had MoCA (or even a TiVo Stream) built in, in the first place, so there was nothing to remove here on these fronts.


My bad... I realized the base Roamio can't act as a MoCA bridge but I wasn't aware that it wouldn't reside on a MoCA network like a TiVo Mini (i.e., as a receiver) without a MoCA adapter.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

sbiller said:


> My bad... I realized the base Roamio can't act as a MoCA bridge but I wasn't aware that it wouldn't reside on a MoCA network like a TiVo Mini (i.e., as a receiver) without a MoCA adapter.


Nobody's perfect, and we all make mistakes. It does seem that the details coming out are not finalized (or what is being said isn't), and/or what they are saying is worded in a way that leads to differing interpretations and/or assumptions.

There seems to be a lot more questions, than there are solid answers. TiVo still claims the base Roamio has gigabit ethernet, from time to time, even though certain charts they use for model comparison sometimes, have been called-out as wrong...

This is exactly why I try to stay out of the speculative threads. You get one wrong detail, pass it along, and then you get to be the one who's wrong...

Thanks for the effort!


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

So Sam, given that reviews say that it's as snappy as any other Roamio, can we assume that Mini support was intentionally crippled in s/w to try and protect Basic sales?


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

slowbiscuit said:


> So Sam, given that reviews say that it's as snappy as any other Roamio, can we assume that Mini support was intentionally crippled in s/w to try and protect Basic sales?


I'm betting it has a cablecard slot on board. Maybe the shell doesn't have access to it, but hardware-wise, my bet its the exact same unit as basic.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

jwbelcher said:


> I'm betting it has a cablecard slot on board. Maybe the shell doesn't have access to it, but hardware-wise, my bet its the exact same unit as basic.


That is a ridiculous assumption. One reason they are able to sell it cheaper than the basic unit is that they don't have to pay for the CableCard slot hardware and associated licensing fees.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

This YouTube video review of the OTA unit by Digital Trends specifically mentions and shows that it does still have the panel and an empty Cablecard slot:


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## Ikrion (Aug 31, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> That is a ridiculous assumption. One reason they are able to sell it cheaper than the basic unit is that they don't have to pay for the CableCard slot hardware and associated licensing fees.


Agreed. It looks like they got the manufacturing scale-up through using the same box, but the CableCard is the main difference. Also, I think the perpetual licensing rather than lifetime creates a consistent cash flow.

If they sell more, who knows. Perhaps we'll get a smaller unit.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

HarperVision said:


> This YouTube video review of the OTA unit by Digital Trends specifically mentions and shows that it does still have the panel and an empty Cablecard slot:


Yes, they used the same shell, so the panel door is still there, but there is no actual "CableCard slot" inside to insert a CableCard into.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yes, they used the same shell, so the panel door is still there, but there is no actual "CableCard slot" inside to insert a CableCard into.


Meh, just the tray is missing, the PCMCIA is still on board.


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## DEC2955 (May 3, 2009)

I just got a reply from TIVO SUPPORT and they say that this OTA will work with a wired home network and share / stream to other TIVO's on the same network including any MINI's on the network... So really the only killer for many is the lack of 'lifetime' ..


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DEC2955 said:


> I just got a reply from TIVO SUPPORT and they say that this OTA will work with a wired home network and share / stream to other TIVO's on the same network including any MINI's on the network... So really the only killer for many is the lack of 'lifetime' ..


I thought it had already been established that the Roamio OTA did not work with the Mini?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> I thought it had already been established that the Roamio OTA did not work with the Mini?


Maybe it's similar to how the 2 tuner premieres share their recordings, being that they also have to have a mini capable TiVo within the local system to stream recordings through?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Yes that's the thing that's really up in the air... If the OTA can't be the host, can it at least be a secondary box on the network for the Mini to stream from?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

It just needs to be an MRS client - that would work fine.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> It just needs to be an MRS client - that would work fine.


Except for people who don't have another mini capable TiVo when they buy the OTA unit.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

The Roamio OTA doesn't seem to be aimed at people that already own other TiVos. Besides those people would most likely get the Roamio Basic anyway wouldn't they?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> Except for people who don't have another mini capable TiVo when they buy the OTA unit.


Correct, it will work as an MRS client in the same way a 2 tuner Premiere will work as an MRS client.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

bradleys said:


> Correct, it will work as an MRS client in the same way a 2 tuner Premiere will work as an MRS client.


Is there an echo in here?


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## DEC2955 (May 3, 2009)

aaronwt said:


> The Roamio OTA doesn't seem to be aimed at people that already own other TiVos. Besides those people would most likely get the Roamio Basic anyway wouldn't they?


Not really.. I wanted something that would record 'OFF THE AIR' channels as many of my local stations (other than the the major six) are not carried on my local cable system.. so in my market that leaves over 15 OTA channels/sub-channels to choose from.. While many of these channels are old time TV shows in 480i broadcast on a digital channel.. there are still a few local original programs.. but also 3 sub-PBS channels and a few others that are in HD 1080i/p.... (a few of oldie but goodies: Pre-2000 "Dr Who", "Mystery Theater 3000", "One Step Beyond", "Route 66")

The only thing that I hope for now is a slightly better tuner chip than what is in the "Roamio Basic" since it will not need to receive and unscramble cable shows...


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## DEC2955 (May 3, 2009)

DEC2955 said:


> I just got a reply from TIVO SUPPORT and they say that this OTA will work with a wired home network and share / stream to other TIVO's on the same network including any MINI's on the network... So really the only killer for many is the lack of 'lifetime' ..


Name of agent and inquiry number have been deleted or changed to protect the agent if they misunderstood the hardwares specifications.
Hello David,

Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support. I would be glad to help you with this question.

The TiVo Roamio OTA model will be able to stream content to a TiVo Mini as long as it is using a wired ethernet connection. Wireless networking will not be able to allow that communication to be applied. Thank you for taking the time to contact TiVo today and definitely contact us again if you have any further inquiries. Have a great day!

The reference number for this inquiry is 140905-00XXXX. Please refer to this number if you choose to contact us again regarding this request. In order to reply to this email, please log into My Support at www.tivo.com/mysupport. Replies directly to this email will not be received.

Sincerely,

TiVo Customer Support Representative
www.tivo.com/support
http://forums.tivo.com​
Since I have missed sales where I could of gotten a "Roamio Basic" for about the same price.. If I get the OTA model and it does not work with the MINI I hope that TIVO will allow a no charge trade for a "Basic" due to poor support reply.
avid


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## DEC2955 (May 3, 2009)

HarperVision said:


> Is there an echo in here?


It was my understanding that for a MINI to work the sending DVR had to have a four (six) tuner setup? And would not work with the older two tuner TIVO's?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

DEC2955 said:


> It was my understanding that for a MINI to work the sending DVR had to have a four (six) tuner setup? And would not work with the older two tuner TIVO's?


Yes, that's correct that a mini must have a four+ tuner as a host for the mini, but once that's there if you add a 2 tuner then the recordings on that unit can be streamed through the host four+ tuner to the mini. A two tuner premiere won't work as a "Host" for a mini, but the mini will be able to read what's recorded on the two tuner unit IF there is a 4+ tuner Premiere or Roamio on the system that IS the host for the mini.


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