# Game of Thrones S3E10 06/09/2013 'Mhysa'



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

They really short-changed us on Jaime's return. I wanted to see Tywin's reaction!

I was wrong about Tyrion and Sansa going to Winterfell, but it sure looks like Arya is going down the path of being a killer.

And now we know how Edmure spent his wedding night and Blackfish is still alive.

How did Arya get behind the guys that put the direwolf's head on Robb's corpse? that part was a little forced.

I'm sure I'll have more to say


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I always re-watch, but what did they say about Edmure?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> I always re-watch, but what did they say about Edmure?


He's a guest in Frey's dungeon.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

question: is it normal to know right away that a newborn is not going to be a "normal" adult?

Once again, Tywin runs away with the father of the year award!


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> question: is it normal to know right away that a newborn is not going to be a "normal" adult?
> 
> Once again, Tywin runs away with the father of the year award!


I think it was more about his wife dying during the birth.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Tyrion was described as being a monstrous baby with hideous features. I am sure that played a part in it as well.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Well that was very anti-climactic after last week!

First, that was so not okay at the beginning having Grey Wind's head on Robb's body parading through the streets. Poor Arya she's no way turning out to be normal in the head. She's seen so much. And now she's actually murdered someone in revenge. No going back now!

Jon Snow and Ygritte. 
This broke my heart


Spoiler





















I get that he has to return to Castle Black but what are they going to do if they find out he broke his oath? This can't be the last we see of Ygritte! I wish he could have taken her with him but so many reasons that can't happen. Ah doomed love.

Davos! Wow I'm a bit in love with this character. He's so damn loyal to Stannis and I have no idea why!! Once again Stannis was about to toss him aside because he does the right thing. I wish he got more screen time but then that means Stannis gets more too.

Poor Sansa. I think she was just starting to come around a bit to Tyrion. Now she'll just lump him in with the rest again. Did Tywin actually suggest he raper her to get her pregnant? Disgusting. Why can't someone stab him in the face already? But this did make me laugh, not gonna lie.


Spoiler





























I dunno. I don't have a lot more to say.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> question: is it normal to know right away that a newborn is not going to be a "normal" adult?
> 
> Once again, Tywin runs away with the father of the year award!


I had to look it up but it says that especially if the dwarfism is of the disproportionate variety (normal size trunk, short limbs) it can be apparent at birth. I'm sure his mother dying did not earn him any bonus points.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Didn't Arya kill a boy in season 1? I'm pretty sure she did. I guess killing in self-defense is different from killing in anger/revenge; but it's still not her first "kill".

Even with Joffrey in the room, Tywin sat at the head of the table


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Didn't Arya kill a boy in season 1? I'm pretty sure she did. I guess killing in self-defense is different from killing in anger/revenge; but it's still not her first "kill".
> 
> Even with Joffrey in the room, Tywin sat at the head of the table


Yes, but note she said it was the first "man" she had killed. The other was a boy.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> Yes, but note she said it was the first "man" she had killed. The other was a boy.


Well, come on now! 

I took the question to mean "is this the first time you've killed someone?", not making a distinction between boy, man, girl, or woman!


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## lambertman (Dec 21, 2002)

I wish I felt half as much empathy for real humans in my life as I do for Arya Stark.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> I always re-watch, but what did they say about Edmure?





heySkippy said:


> He's a guest in Frey's dungeon.


been meaning to circle back to that...note that Frey is now in charge of Riverrun (part of the deal with Tywin, it seems), so I'm not sure why Edmure is still alive at all; unless Frey needs him to retain control of the Tullys' men or something.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Well, come on now!
> 
> I took the question to mean "is this the first time you've killed someone?", not making a distinction between boy, man, girl, or woman!


That was the question The Hound asked and what he intended for it to mean, but I think in her mind she made the distinction. She even answered by saying "The first man."


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> been meaning to circle back to that...note that Frey is now in charge of Riverrun (part of the deal with Tywin, it seems), so I'm not sure why Edmure is still alive at all; unless Frey needs him to retain control of the Tullys' men or something.


Frey may be the new lord of Riverrun on paper, but I don't see how he actually has it in his possession quite yet. I don't imagine whomever was left behind will open the gates for their new lord without a bit of discussion. Edmure could be of some use yet.


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Well, come on now!
> 
> I took the question to mean "is this the first time you've killed someone?", not making a distinction between boy, man, girl, or woman!


The whole point was that she was making the distinction that this is the first time she had killed a man.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Well that was very anti-climactic after last week!


Someone I know "in real life" told me the exact same thing. I'm glad that the season didn't end with a Red Wedding cliff hanger. I think this episode, while not really giving closure, set up for the coming break.



photoshopgrl said:


> Jon Snow and Ygritte.
> This broke my heart
> 
> 
> ...


When Jon told Ygritte that he knew she wouldn't hurt him, I could not help but think to myself that obviously Jon has never read anything written by GRRM. You know nothing, Jon Snow!



photoshopgrl said:


> But this did make me laugh, not gonna lie.
> 
> 
> Spoiler


I've watched the small council meeting three times already. There were some great lines! As usual, Tyrion had the best lines. The part where he asked a grinning Joffrey if he had been killing puppies and the other when he told him that kings were dropping like flies.  :up:

On another note, this scene also made me realize just how much the actor that plays Joffrey looks like the the actor that play Tywin. Very realistic. That's a good thing since Joff has a double dose of Tywin genes.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I dunno. I don't have a lot more to say.


I loved the "You just sent the king to bed without his supper" line.

If/When Tyrion dies it will be a sad sad day.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> I've watched the small council meeting three times already. There were some great lines! As usual, Tyrion had the best lines. The part where he asked a grinning Joffrey if he had been killing puppies and the other when he told him that kings were dropping like flies.  :up:


Loved the Grand Maester pretending to be old and frail and dropping the R-mail to the floor so Tyrion would have to pick it up. Those subtle hostilities, with the accompanying facial expressions of those around (well, except for Tywin's stone face) showing their amusement is priceless.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Once again, Tywin runs away with the father of the year award!


I dunno, with Papa Greyjoy, Tywin has some real competition.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> I've watched the small council meeting three times already. There were some great lines! As usual, Tyrion had the best lines. The part where he asked a grinning Joffrey if he had been killing puppies and the other when he told him that kings were dropping like flies.  :up:


Fantastic scene all around. The actor who plays Joffrey was great as well. Between the acting of the three (Joffrey, Tywin, Tyrion) and the writing, I was thoroughly delighted.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I thought there was going to be a fun surprise ending. I don't think the mildly disturbing messiah scene counts. Surely the first time we got nothing suspenseful in the closing moments?

How long has it been such that Jamie is still wearing his arm in a sling?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Tsiehta said:


> The whole point was that she was making the distinction that this is the first time she had killed a man.


In Arya's defense, the first person (kid), was an accident.


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## GTuck (May 23, 2004)

The Theon scenes are getting pretty disturbing, at least his sister wants to save him.



Spoiler


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Poor Sansa. I think she was just starting to come around a bit to Tyrion. Now she'll just lump him in with the rest again. Did Tywin actually suggest he raper her to get her pregnant? Disgusting. Why can't someone stab him in the face already? But this did make me laugh, not gonna lie.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Joffrey . "I am NOT TIRED" right after he basically announces to the entire small council that he's not the rightful king (not Robert's son) and his mother sleeps with her brother. 

(Sure there were plenty of _rumors_; but that's different that publically claiming Jamie as your father -- by listing all his accomplishments in the war while saying "my father did...")


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Joffrey . "I am NOT TIRED" right after he basically announces to the entire small council that he's not the rightful king (not Robert's son) and his mother sleeps with her brother.
> 
> (Sure there were plenty of _rumors_; but that's different that publically claiming Jamie as your father -- by listing all his accomplishments in the war while saying "my father did...")


I thought Joff's references to his father were about Robert, who also had a lot of accomplishments in the war against the Mad King. Does Joff even know who his real father is?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> Joffrey . "I am NOT TIRED" right after he basically announces to the entire small council that he's not the rightful king (not Robert's son) and his mother sleeps with her brother.
> 
> (Sure there were plenty of _rumors_; but that's different that publically claiming Jamie as your father -- by listing all his accomplishments in the war while saying "my father did...")


Huh? I was pretty sure he was talking about Robert. Robert was instrumental in the war.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I thought it's obvious he meant RB, too.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> I've watched the small council meeting three times already. There were some great lines! As usual, Tyrion had the best lines. The part where he asked a grinning Joffrey if he had been killing puppies and the other when he told him that kings were dropping like flies.  :up:..


Tyrion is hands down the best character and Peter Dinklage the best actor in the show.



Jonathan_S said:


> Joffrey . "I am NOT TIRED" right after he basically announces to the entire small council that he's not the rightful king (not Robert's son) and his mother sleeps with her brother.
> 
> (Sure there were plenty of _rumors_; but that's different that publically claiming Jamie as your father -- by listing all his accomplishments in the war while saying "my father did...")


I must not have a good head for details as to who won what wars. I thought he was talking about Robert when he said those things.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Well they explained why Sam dropped the dragon glass knife after killing the White Walker, he had spares. This episode was more to set up next season than to conclude the last one.



nirisahn said:


> I must not have a good head for details as to who won what wars. I thought he was talking about Robert when he said those things.


Joffrey was definitely talking about Robert, Joeffry's real mistake was telling Tywin that he spent the war "Hiding in Casterly Rock", when it was Tywin's army (combined with his false offer of support) that got the Mad King to open the gates of Kings Landing thereby sealing his doom.

And to be honest, JAmie hasn't done a lot in the current war.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I first took Joffrey's statement to be about Robert, but on reflection (and without having the exact quote on hand to reference) think it was pretty ambiguous and could arguably apply to either.

ETA: Nevermind. For some reason I thought his statement was more general about overthrowing the mad king, but forgot that Joffrey specifically referred to his father killing Rhaegar.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

tiassa said:


> And to be honest, JAmie hasn't done a lot in the current war.


True, but neither has Robert.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> Huh? I was pretty sure he was talking about Robert. Robert was instrumental in the war.


Oops.  I guess I got my battles mixed up.

I though he was talking about the current war; not the war against the Mad King. (And Robert obviously did nothing in the current war since it was started by his death).


nirisahn said:


> I must not have a good head for details as to who won what wars. I thought he was talking about Robert when he said those things.


Or maybe I'm the one without a head for those details.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

tiassa said:


> Joffrey was definitely talking about Robert, Joeffry's real mistake was telling Tywin that he spent the war "Hiding in Casterly Rock", when it was Tywin's army (combined with his false offer of support) that got the Mad King to open the gates of Kings Landing thereby sealing his doom.


I think a lot of people have a very real reason to be afraid of Joffrey. He's completely irrational. Tywin is not one of them. I think Joffrey made a huge mistake crossing Tywin in that scene. I think any person in Westeros would choose Tywin over Joffrey given the choice.

tk


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> Joffrey . "I am NOT TIRED" right after he basically announces to the entire small council that he's not the rightful king (not Robert's son) and his mother sleeps with her brother.
> 
> (Sure there were plenty of _rumors_; but that's different that publically claiming Jamie as your father -- by listing all his accomplishments in the war while saying "my father did...")





allan said:


> I thought Joff's references to his father were about Robert, who also had a lot of accomplishments in the war against the Mad King. Does Joff even know who his real father is?





TAsunder said:


> Huh? I was pretty sure he was talking about Robert. Robert was instrumental in the war.


He was talking about Robert. Robert killed Prince Rhaegar, which he mentioned. During Robert's rebellion, Tywin sat idly by waiting to take King's Landing at the right moment while King Aerys, Rhaegar's father, had commanded him to take up arms. So it was a veritable slap to the face of Tywin by Joffery.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

I was expecting something bad to happen to Joffrey and Balon Greyjoy after what happened to Robb. Now I'm starting to doubt that the whole business with the leeches was anything more than coincidence. Like a good con artist, she picked three people in risky positions and declares victory when something happens to just one of them. She also didn't know anything about the pending white walker troubles until informed by raven. Not demonstrating great future-predicting ability. 

Speaking of white walkers, not much of them in the season finale. I expected us to get another scene like we did in the S2 finale. It sure is taking them a long to time reach the wall, assuming that it was that where they were heading during the white walker march in the S2 opener.

As far as I can tell, Balon is wrong, Theon still can reproduce though not quite as pleasurably as before. 

Ramsay Snow-Bolton is either a fool or doesn't really want to give up Theon in exchange for the departure of the ironborne. To damage the reproductive ability of the only son of a lord / king-wannabe nullifies his use as a bargaining chip. I don't think Ramsay cares. At least we know for sure who Ramsay is now. Lord Bolton also admittedly knows the nature of his son, which ups the Lord Bolton evilness factor a bit.

When seeing the coin come out in this episode, I was hoping the faceless man would return, Arya would depart, and we'd get some trained assassin Arya back next season. Oh well, maybe it'll happen next season. 

Did Sansa find out about her brother before Tyrion went to tell her? She seemed to be looking sad sitting by the window, but not actually crying. We seem to be repeatedly cheated of the Tyrion-tells-sansa-bad-news scenes.

I also interpreted Joffrey of speaking of Robert as his father. I wonder if he knows the truth? The rumor seemed to be rather prevalent, but then again maybe word doesn't get around to Joffrey. Between being put to bed by his mom for important meetings and shooting people with crossbows for fun, I'm not sure he has much of a social life.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Well that was very anti-climactic after last week!


That's pretty much par for the course for GoT season finales. The climax of the season is always in Ep. 9, and then Ep. 10 is wrapping up loose ends and setting things up for the next season.



pendragn said:


> I think a lot of people have a very real reason to be afraid of Joffrey. He's completely irrational. Tywin is not one of them. I think Joffrey made a huge mistake crossing Tywin in that scene. I think any person in Westeros would choose Tywin over Joffrey given the choice.
> 
> tk


Except that people in Westeros don't get to make that choice. They still believe in royalty by rightful succession, and while we all know that Joffrey doesn't have the proper bloodlines, the people of Westeros don't know that. Tywin doesn't have any claim to the throne and regardless of how much better he'd be as a king, he'd never attempt to take the throne.


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

All in all, I thought that last night's episode was kind of boring. This season has not been nearly as good as the 2 prior seasons because everything was dragged out. In prior seasons, you dare not miss a minute because you would miss something that was vital to the understanding of the show. The writing was tighter and more compelling in the first 2 years.

I thought the small counsel scene was designed to show the second coming of a "mad king". Jaime killed the first one and sired the second one. I think everyone at table except Joffrey knows that Jaime is his father as a fact. Joffrey still thinks that Robert is his father.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

So does Jon Snow die? I hope so.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> They still believe in royalty by rightful succession, and while we all know that Joffrey doesn't have the proper bloodlines, the people of Westeros don't know that.


They believe in rightful succession so long as the king isn't 'mad'.  Then it's fine for his own guard to stab him, his entire family be killed, and some other family take charge.

Joffrey is pretty F'ing mad.



grey ghost said:


> This season has not been nearly as good as the 2 prior seasons because everything was dragged out.


To the contrary, I felt everything was too rushed. There are too many stories going on simultaneously and too much switching back and forth leading to insufficient depth of any story.

Take Daenaerys and Yunkai for example. Both the finale and the previous episode did satisfy me. It felt to me like she was just being squeezed in to move her story forward with as little screen time as possible.

I think they're continually fitting 90 minutes of material into 60 minutes.

It was also very uneven. We got excruciating treatment of Theon, yet Balon and Theon's sister remain absent for essentially the entire season. We've had far too little of Tyrion. I expected a bunch of intrigue in his new role of master of coin.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

smbaker said:


> Did Sansa find out about her brother before Tyrion went to tell her? She seemed to be looking sad sitting by the window, but not actually crying. We seem to be repeatedly cheated of the Tyrion-tells-sansa-bad-news scenes.


I thought it was pretty clear that her eyes were red and bloodshot and her cheeks were tear-stained. She'd been told and had been crying about it, which is why Tyrion knew there was nothing he could say.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smbaker said:


> I was expecting something bad to happen to Joffrey and Balon Greyjoy after what happened to Robb. Now I'm starting to doubt that the whole business with the leeches was anything more than coincidence. Like a good con artist, she picked three people in risky positions and declares victory when something happens to just one of them. She also didn't know anything about the pending white walker troubles until informed by raven. Not demonstrating great future-predicting ability.


Well, Stannis did see a great battle in the snow when he looked into the fire. Now that makes sense as an immediate future (fighting the WW) as opposed to much later (when Winter has come to King's Landing).



smbaker said:


> As far as I can tell, Balon is wrong, Theon still can reproduce though not quite as pleasurably as before.


Depends on if the berries were also cut, along with the twig!



smbaker said:


> When seeing the coin come out in this episode, I was hoping the faceless man would return, Arya would depart, and we'd get some trained assassin Arya back next season. Oh well, maybe it'll happen next season.


Same here, but I think she has to give the coin to someone from that place (Bravoos?) in order to summon Jaquen



smbaker said:


> Did Sansa find out about her brother before Tyrion went to tell her? She seemed to be looking sad sitting by the window, but not actually crying. We seem to be repeatedly cheated of the Tyrion-tells-sansa-bad-news scenes.


The way I saw it, she knew and was crying. Tyrion knows that he cannot possibly console her and would only make things worse. So once he realized that she already knew, he withdrew.



smbaker said:


> I also interpreted Joffrey of speaking of Robert as his father. I wonder if he knows the truth? The rumor seemed to be rather prevalent, but then again maybe word doesn't get around to Joffrey. Between being put to bed by his mom for important meetings and shooting people with crossbows for fun, I'm not sure he has much of a social life.


Joffrey has heard the rumors and already confronted Cersei with it. This is when she slapped him in front of all the workers in the Throne room and he warned her that he will kill her the next time she did that.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

smbaker said:


> They believe in rightful succession so long as the king isn't 'mad'.  Then it's fine for his own guard to stab him, his entire family be killed, and some other family take charge.
> 
> Joffrey is pretty F'ing mad.


Well, just as in real-world history, thrones can be taken by force, which is why there is a war in Westeros and why Dany is building an army. But generally the person vying to take the throne has some kind of claim. It's the reason he can get an army behind him. I don't think Tywin has aspirations to be king. I think he knows he can be much more powerful behind the scenes.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Tywin is definitely the Cheney of Westeros.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think Tywin has aspirations to be king. I think he knows he can be much more powerful behind the scenes.


I agree with this point, but I also think he could install the king of his choice by putting enough money into the right hands.

The advantage he has now is that he seems to dominate Joffrey. I don't know how long that's going to last, until Joffrey becomes unmanageable or finds some way to act against tywin.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Pod's legend continues to grow. Now even proper ladies have heard about him and giggle & blush when he rushes by!

I know exactly how he feels!


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

smbaker said:


> As far as I can tell, Balon is wrong, Theon still can reproduce though not quite as pleasurably as before.
> 
> Ramsay Snow-Bolton is either a fool or doesn't really want to give up Theon in exchange for the departure of the ironborne. To damage the reproductive ability of the only son of a lord / king-wannabe nullifies his use as a bargaining chip. I don't think Ramsay cares. At least we know for sure who Ramsay is now. Lord Bolton also admittedly knows the nature of his son, which ups the Lord Bolton evilness factor a bit.


I think Ramsay cut off Theon's penis and testicles, just as Lord Varys said happened to him when talking to Tyrion. He has nothing left to reproduce with. I think that was underlined when Theon thought that Ramsey was eating his penis which was actually just a sausage.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

Can someone clarify the Cersei/Robert situation for me? They were married. She had sex with her brother and had three children by him. Robert accepted them as his own, right? So Cersei and Robert must have been having sex. He is obviously fertile since he had the bastard son who is currently in a rowboat. Why did Cersei and Robert have no children of their own?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Tracy said:


> Can someone clarify the Cersei/Robert situation for me? They were married. She had sex with her brother and had three children by him. Robert accepted them as his own, right? So Cersei and Robert must have been having sex. He is obviously fertile since he had the bastard son who is currently in a rowboat. Why did Cersei and Robert have no children of their own?


Cersei said she'd just get him drunk and he's forget. Plus she said she'd abort it if they had real kids.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tracy said:


> Can someone clarify the Cersei/Robert situation for me? They were married. She had sex with her brother and had three children by him. Robert accepted them as his own, right? So Cersei and Robert must have been having sex. He is obviously fertile since he had the bastard son who is currently in a rowboat. Why did Cersei and Robert have no children of their own?


Cersei described to Ned how she managed it. Robert always came to her drunk as drunk could be. So she took care of him in such a way as he would remember having...um...finished...she could then freely have sex with Jaime and what consequences came of that.

Edit: not a smeek! it just took me a while to write it (and, after all, I had more details)


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

Ah, okay. I guess I forgot Robert was such a drunk.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

My TiVo decided to reboot three minutes into the show so I missed the one scene I really wanted to see - Tywin confronting Joffrey. Unfortunately, it came back up in time to record the whole Theon torture scene. 

I ffwd'd through the second half of the Theon scene. I'm thoroughly sick of the Ttheon torture scenes. Frankly, I'm starting to wonder if GRRM is a off in the head with all the graphicly disturbing scenes he's created. I'd hate to be his wife when he decides to get kinky.

The actor who plays Ramsay does crazy well.

Stannis makes me laugh. He's a king but he might as well not have an opinion about anything since he jumps whenever the red witch lady says to.

Other than Casa Lannister, these kings live in poor excuses for castles. Stannis's and Greyjoy's castles won't make it on Lifestyles Of The Rich And Famous.

She shot Jon Snow! Three times. Didn't see that coming.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I just read a review where the guy said Theon is non-existent in book 3. So all the torture scenes are added by the show. I don't know if that is true or not but maybe the blame is not on the author!


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Heh, if anything the show has taken it relatively easy on Theon compared to the books.


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## AlphaDelta (Jan 9, 2007)

Curious who told Sansa about the red wedding. That information would have been at least initially confined to the small council. Kind of implies that Cercei or Joffrey or both told her, since they left early to put him to bed  That would have been a brutal scene.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

smbaker said:


> I agree with this point, but I also think he could install the king of his choice by putting enough money into the right hands.
> 
> The advantage he has now is that he seems to dominate Joffrey. I don't know how long that's going to last, until Joffrey becomes unmanageable or finds some way to act against tywin.


I'd say, not too long. Yes, Joffrey went to bed without his supper this time, but he's getting bolder. He's already lost his fear of the Imp.  I think it's only a matter of time before he loses his fear of Tywin.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

AlphaDelta said:


> Curious who told Sansa about the red wedding. That information would have been at least initially confined to the small council. Kind of implies that Cercei or Joffrey or both told her, since they left early to put him to bed  That would have been a brutal scene.


I'm not surprised, it's not the sort of info you want to hide. Joffrey probably talked to everyone he could find about it, before and after the council meeting.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I don't recall long detailed torture scenes with Theon. I recall the end result and learning about some things that had happened (like his failed escape that was a set up). Did I forget all of this (or fast forward like I sometimes do now)?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

jakerock said:


> I don't recall long detailed torture scenes with Theon. I recall the end result and learning about some things that had happened (like his failed escape that was a set up). Did I forget all of this (or fast forward like I sometimes do now)?


No, your recollection is correct.



Spoiler



The books don't show much torture of Theon as Theon - but they do show some torture of Reek. But we spend most (all?) of Book 4 not knowing who "Reek" is, and I'm not sure there is way to film that for the show, so I understand why they made the change. But I'm still waiting for some sort of payoff for that storyline.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Season is over so I will renew my offer for a file containing episode recaps. I have recaps from Alan Sepinwall, Andy Geenwald (Grantland), and James Hibberd (EW). I also added some interviews from those same places.

Right now, it's a Word file (129 pages long). I plan on sending it to my Kindle and converting it to MOBI, but you'll have to give me a day or two for that.

PM me if you're interested.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

AlphaDelta said:


> Curious who told Sansa about the red wedding. That information would have been at least initially confined to the small council. Kind of implies that Cercei or Joffrey or both told her, since they left early to put him to bed  That would have been a brutal scene.


But I don't think it's safe to assume that Tyrion went straight from the Small Council meeting to Sansa. I don't remember what other scenes were shown between those two things, but I remember having the sense that some time had passed, maybe a day or more, and that it wasn't surprising that Sansa had already heard the news. Tyrion didn't seem surprised either.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> No, your recollection is correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's my point we don't experience any of this in the book (in real time) and I'm not sure why we have to in the show. It's not adding anything except discomfort for me. But hopefully they have their reasons (and it isn't simply to make us uncomfortable).


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

jakerock said:


> That's my point we don't experience any of this in the book (in real time) and I'm not sure why we have to in the show. It's not adding anything except discomfort for me. But hopefully they have their reasons (and it isn't simply to make us uncomfortable).





Spoiler



IIRC, we are starting to see signs in Book 5 that "Reek" may yet have an important role to play. If that's the case, then we probably need to see Theon as Reek, and this is the only way to do that. If that is not the case, then I agree that I didn't really need to see this.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I have a hunch that when Dany sets foot on Westeros, it will not be a small thing.


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## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

DevdogAZ said:


> I thought it was pretty clear that her eyes were red and bloodshot and her cheeks were tear-stained. She'd been told and had been crying about it, which is why Tyrion knew there was nothing he could say.


I'm sure as soon as word got to the Small Council room, gossip spread it at a breakneck speed thru the rest of the castle. Shea may have told her, she may have overheard people talking about it, who knows how she found out. I can almost guarantee that it was neither Cersei or Joffrey

I did think that was so sensitive of Tyrion to just walk away not saying anything. He knew his family was responsible and he knew he could not be of any comfort.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Just remembered another great Tyrion line: "It's not easy being drunk all the time. Everyone would do it if it were easy."


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I have a hunch that when Dany sets foot on Westeros, it will not be a small thing.


Rob, whoa there with your out-there crazy pronouncements.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Marco said:


> Rob, whoa there with your out-there crazy pronouncements.


Heh, yeah. But I'm actually half-serious. There's always the possibility that she could slip in under the cover of night...and that would probably be the smart move, considering how many people would immediately want to slit her throat. But this show just loves loves LOVES its Big Dani Moments, and I can't see them passing that one by. [Book spoilers, though more for what hasn't happened than what has]


Spoiler



Going purely by the books, I would suspect a more furtive approach, although a lot could happen between now and then that might change things. But regardless of how the books handle her arrival (which I assume will some day happen), the TV people will make a big deal of it.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

I thought this was pretty funny.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Heh, yeah. But I'm actually half-serious. There's always the possibility that she could slip in under the cover of night...and that would probably be the smart move, considering how many people would immediately want to slit her throat. But this show just loves loves LOVES its Big Dani Moments, and I can't see them passing that one by. [Book spoilers, though more for what hasn't happened than what has]
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Speculation on the book stuff:


Spoiler



There's no way for her to arrive quietly. With three dragons, which will be quite large, and a massive army. All those boats and dragons will be quite a spectacle. Of course, that is if she's not just riding the dragons and joins someone else's army.


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## MegaHertz67 (Apr 18, 2005)

I had a few reactions right off the bat:

1. Balon Greyjoy's assesment of his Theon's situation and how it affects his claim to the lands he has taken was pretty cold blooded, but it was a very utilitarian look at the situation. Why give up his claim to get back a man that is no longer really a "man" in the way he needs his son to be a man. "He cried when I took it away." I would bet he cried a lot.

2. Jeoffrey reminded be of Yosemite Sam when he was getting all flustered and red faced and unable to find the words to express himself. Yes he got sent to bed without supper, but he'll grab his crossbow and go hunt some varmint for his dinner. Obviously the "handling" of the boy king is not going to be easy for grandpa Tywin. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The sadistic joy on his face on serving Robb's head to Sansa on his wedding day was scary. I don't get his desire to continue to torture this girl who he is no longer being forced to marry.

3. The best lines are always for Tyrion, but his share of heartbreak this time was equally as powerful. The discussion with his father about the decision to let him live on the day of his birth was hard to hear. His protective nature over his new bride is admirable, but the look on his face when he knew her heart was broken and there was nothing he could say or do to make it better was like a gut punch. Great acting without saying a word.

4. And Jon Snow (who still knows nothing) assuming Ygritte would still love him and not hurt him after he betrayed her and her people was hopeful at best. He'd might have been better off asking her to come with him and offer her protection. Might not have worked, but it might have spared him an arrow or two.


photoshopgrl said:


> I get that he has to return to Castle Black but what are they going to do if they find out he broke his oath?


It was more than getting physical with Ygritte, he also killed one of his own to prove himself. I think it can all be explained away as doing what you have to do to survive and get back with the information they need to protect the kingdoms.


lambertman said:


> I wish I felt half as much empathy for real humans in my life as I do for Arya Stark.


I think Arya is the most tragic figure of all in this story. She wishes she could have been treated as one of the boys and trained in combat, but wasn't taken seriously because she's a girl. But as a girl she has lived in the shadow of Sansa who took to the dresses and the manners and the "girlyness" of it all. She was dragged to King's Landing, having to watch Sansa become the center of attention, but at least she was allowed to train. She sees her father die, her sister become a veritable prisoner, and had to escape pretending to be a boy that was being sold to the Knight's Watch.

Now she's been separated from the ones she loves most and surviving on the fringes. She finally gets an opportunity to get back to her mother and brother only to arrive just after they'd been ambushed and killed. Watching the wolf die, getting knocked unconscious, and waking to see her brother's body with the wolf's head having replaced his would have caused a psychotic break in any sane person. She is going to be dangerously unhinged from now on and I think every person on this thread will probably shout with joy and encouragement for her every time she takes someone out in a bloody way.

It's going to be a long winter until the next episode.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

MegaHertz67 said:


> 4. And Jon Snow (who still knows nothing) assuming Ygritte would still love him and not hurt him after he betrayed her and her people was hopeful at best.


Didn't she almost explicitly say that the two of them were together no matter what side he chose?


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

grey ghost said:


> I think Ramsay cut off Theon's penis and testicles, just as Lord Varys said happened to him when talking to Tyrion. He has nothing left to reproduce with. I think that was underlined when Theon thought that Ramsey was eating his penis which was actually just a sausage.


It was just a sausage. Not sausage and meat balls.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MegaHertz67 said:


> It was more than getting physical with Ygritte, he also killed one of his own to prove himself. I think it can all be explained away as doing what you have to do to survive and get back with the information they need to protect the kingdoms.


And he's the only one to tell the tale, so it will be interesting to see how he tells it...


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

MegaHertz67 said:


> It's going to be a long winter until the next episode.


It shouldn't be a surprise, the show has repeatedly let us know "winter is coming"


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Did Samwell warn Bran and his crew about the Wytes and White Walkers? (And what's the diff? I forgot. White Walkers are zombies of recently dead men, and the Wytes are the head choppers we saw at the first episode?)

When Tyrion gets back on top he's going do a Theon trim on Maester Py.

I can't wait until next season for the Brienne meltdown when she hears that Lady Stark was killed.

Bran told of the "white rat killing those who harm guests" omen right before they cut back to Lord Frye. I was waiting for him to get offed by another shadow monster. 

Samwell happened to be laying there the whole time the crew was in the castle?

If Samwell told the Measter that Bran and Rickon were alive, he could have sent out that word via raven, too. He will tell John Snow and maybe John Snow will go looking for them in the north.


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## MegaHertz67 (Apr 18, 2005)

dianebrat said:


> It shouldn't be a surprise, the show has repeatedly let us know "winter is coming"


I live in Miami. Winter here is 2 weeks in February when it gets in the 50s.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Jstkiddn said:


> Yes, but note she said it was the first "man" she had killed. The other was a boy.


She did tell the truth, but Arya doesn't really mind lying either....



Anubys said:


> been meaning to circle back to that...note that Frey is now in charge of Riverrun (part of the deal with Tywin, it seems), so I'm not sure why Edmure is still alive at all; unless Frey needs him to retain control of the Tullys' men or something.


There are still men at River Run, and most of these castles can hold out against a seige with just a few men. Plus Blackfish will probably try to get back there. I wouldn't be too amazed either if Frey doesn't get everything Tywin promised him. 



nirisahn said:


> Tyrion is hands down the best character and Peter Dinklage the best actor in the show.


And that's saying a lot! :up:



tiassa said:


> And to be honest, JAmie hasn't done a lot in the current war.


His main contribution to the other war was being the Kingslayer, which for some reason no one seems to appreciate.



heySkippy said:


> Heh, if anything the show has taken it relatively easy on Theon compared to the books.


I thought the books dealt more with the psychological brainwashing than the physical stuff, although there was a lot of flaying going on. It took more than 30 seconds to get him to say that his name is Reek.



netringer said:


> Did Samwell warn Bran and his crew about the Wytes and White Walkers? (And what's the diff? I forgot. White Walkers are zombies of recently dead men, and the Wytes are the head choppers we saw at the first episode?)
> 
> Samwell happened to be laying there the whole time the crew was in the castle?
> 
> If Samwell told the Measter that Bran and Rickon were alive, he could have sent out that word via raven, too. He will tell John Snow and maybe John Snow will go looking for them in the north.


Jojen seems to know all about the White Walkers. The recently dead men attack you but can be killed with fire. The others are the dudes with the blue eyes who can only be killed with dragonglass. It seems like they have more method to their madness than just randomly killing people,and they seem to like babies. 

Sam and Gilly were coming in the secret passage and climbing up that big hole in the room the others were sleeping in. I doubt if they knew there was anyone there, since they were making lots of noise.

As far as Sam telling John


Spoiler



in the books Bran made him promise not to tell, which he hated, but of course he kept his word--at least as far as I got.



So what were we supposed to get from Cercei's reaction to Jamie? She sure didn't run into his arm very fast.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Tracy said:


> Can someone clarify the Cersei/Robert situation for me? They were married. She had sex with her brother and had three children by him. Robert accepted them as his own, right? So Cersei and Robert must have been having sex. He is obviously fertile since he had the bastard son who is currently in a rowboat. Why did Cersei and Robert have no children of their own?


There was one. Way back in Season One, while waiting to see if Bran would awaken from his fall, Cersei told Catlyn the story of her dark haired son who died of a fever.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

What or who is Mhysa?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> What or who is Mhysa?


IIRC, it meant "mother". As in, the mother of everything and everyone. Is it a coincidence that the word reminds me of Messiah?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> What or who is Mhysa?


From Alan Sepinwall


> Dany tells the former slaves that their freedom wasn't hers to give, but theirs to take  and yet they respond to this suggestion by using their word for mother to cheer for their liberator


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

netringer said:


> Did Samwell warn Bran and his crew about the Wytes and White Walkers? (And what's the diff? I forgot. White Walkers are zombies of recently dead men, and the Wytes are the head choppers we saw at the first episode?)


I think the ones that have to be killed with dragonglass are the White Walkers. And there aren't very many of them. But Samwell said that for every one of them there were innumerable "zombies." I'm not sure if those are called Wytes or not.



netringer said:


> Bran told of the "white rat killing those who harm guests" omen right before they cut back to Lord Frye. I was waiting for him to get offed by another shadow monster.


For those of us who haven't read the books, I think this story by Bran would have had more impact if he'd told it before the Red Wedding. We then would have understood how important it is in their culture to protect guests in your house and what a huge betrayal it was for Frey to do that to Robb after taking Robb in as his guest.

Granted, they couldn't have had it in the same episode as the Red Wedding, as it would have given away what was about to happen. But an episode or two before would have been ideal.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> What or who is Mhysa?





Anubys said:


> IIRC, it meant "mother". As in, the mother of everything and everyone. Is it a coincidence that the word reminds me of Messiah?


Right, that's what Dany's mob followers were chanting to her at the end. "Mommy! Mommy! Mommy!" Her translator explained what it meant.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> He was talking about Robert. Robert killed Prince Rhaegar, which he mentioned.


That, and he also said his father "took the crown".



Anubys said:


> Pod's legend continues to grow. Now even proper ladies have heard about him and giggle & blush when he rushes by!


LOL. I didn't catch that until you mentioned it. "Ohhhhh, that's him"



Anubys said:


> Cersei described to Ned how she managed it. Robert always came to her drunk as drunk could be. So she took care of him in such a way as he would remember having...um...finished...she could then freely have sex with Jaime and what consequences came of that.


I think her exact words were "I'd finish him off in other ways".

I think they are drawing some very clear parallels between Joffrey and the Mad King, and I don't think it's coincidental. Jamie is head of the kings guard. I know he's lost a hand, but I wonder if he'll be able to hold onto that position. Much of sword fighting is knowing how to fight. Could he possibly train himself to fight just as well left handed? If he could keep that position, it would be interesting. I've always assumed Joffrey will be offed by Stannis (via magic) or Dany (via dragon). Now I'm wondering if he'll go more and more mad. If Joffrey ends up doing something, like ordering the death of Cersei or Tywin, could the King Slayer once again earn his title?

So was it really Tyrion that sent Varys to get rid of Shae? Obviously it would be more like Tyrion to have a sack of diamonds to give away than it would Varys, but I thought Tyrion would have a bit more honor than to send someone else to do his work for him.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

netringer said:


> Did Samwell warn Bran and his crew about the Wytes and White Walkers? (And what's the diff? I forgot. White Walkers are zombies of recently dead men, and the Wytes are the head choppers we saw at the first episode?)


You have it backwards... Whitewalkers (or Others) are the mythical race of beings north of the wall, and are bound by magic to be unable to cross the wall. A wight is a reanimated corpse, either human or animal, raised from dead by the White Walkers to act as their minions.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

robojerk said:


> Whitewalkers (or Others) are the mythical race of beings north of the wall, and are *bound by magic to be unable to cross the wall*.


Where did you get that from? Was that mentioned in the book, or did I miss it in the show?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

robojerk said:


> You have it backwards... Whitewalkers (or Others) are the mythical race of beings north of the wall, *and are bound by magic to be unable to cross the wall*. A wight is a reanimated corpse, either human or animal, raised from dead by the White Walkers to act as their minions.


You're right about everything but the bolded part. The Wall was erected to keep the Others at bay, but there is no magic keeping them on the north side of the Wall.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> So was it really Tyrion that sent Varys to get rid of Shae? Obviously it would be more like Tyrion to have a sack of diamonds to give away than it would Varys, but I thought Tyrion would have a bit more honor than to send someone else to do his work for him.


I got the sense that it was entirely Varys acting on his own. He knows Tyrion is the only Lannister that is (relatively) honorable and worth following, and he knows that in order for Tyrion to remain in the good graces of his family, he has to father a son with Sansa. With Shae around throwing disapproving glances at Tyrion every time Tyrion spends any time with his wife, it's going to be difficult for Tyrion to fulfill his calling. Hence, Varys is acting for the "good of the realm" in trying to remove Shae from the picture.

Either that, or I totally misread that scene.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I got the sense that it was entirely Varys acting on his own. He knows Tyrion is the only Lannister that is (relatively) honorable and worth following, and he knows that in order for Tyrion to remain in the good graces of his family, he has to father a son with Sansa. With Shae around throwing disapproving glances at Tyrion every time Tyrion spends any time with his wife, it's going to be difficult for Tyrion to fulfill his calling. Hence, Varys is acting for the "good of the realm" in trying to remove Shae from the picture.
> 
> Either that, or I totally misread that scene.


That's how I took it, up until Shae said that and Varys said nothing back.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

grey ghost said:


> All in all, I thought that last night's episode was kind of boring. This season has not been nearly as good as the 2 prior seasons because everything was dragged out. In prior seasons, you dare not miss a minute because you would miss something that was vital to the understanding of the show. The writing was tighter and more compelling in the first 2 years.


If you'd read the books you'd realize how much more there is in the third book, than we've seen this season. It would be insane to try to fit it all in to 10 hours. As it is there are many things left out. I'm with others who have said that, exactly the opposite to your opinion, I still think they're leaving out stuff I'd like to see.



cheesesteak said:


> I ffwd'd through the second half of the Theon scene. I'm thoroughly sick of the Ttheon torture scenes. Frankly, I'm starting to wonder if GRRM is a off in the head with all the graphicly disturbing scenes he's created. I'd hate to be his wife when he decides to get kinky.


As others have mentioned, they do not have these long torture scenes in the books, at all. Theon is not one of the "tracked" characters so we don't find out first-hand what happens to him when he's captured, and when he turns up again he's already been "broken". There are some scenes in the books which imply the kinds of things that he's gone through but they are not described in great detail. I'm sure GRRM's wife has no complaints on that front 



heySkippy said:


> Heh, if anything the show has taken it relatively easy on Theon compared to the books.


The things we've _seen_ happen to him are not all as gruesome as the things that the books imply _have_ happened to him in the past. But on the TV show they, well, show it... in the books they don't. At least, that's how I remember it.



netringer said:


> Samwell happened to be laying there the whole time the crew was in the castle?


Sam and Gilly came through under the wall in a secret passage, and that passage came up through the well that Hodor was yelling down at the beginning of that scene. That was the weird noise they heard: Sam climbing up those stairs. Then when Bran is going out to the north, they had all climbed back down so Sam could show them the way through the secret passages.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

madscientist said:


> ...Sam and Gilly came through under the wall in a secret passage, and that passage came up through the well that Hodor was yelling down at the beginning of that scene. That was the weird noise they heard: Sam climbing up those stairs. Then when Bran is going out to the north, they had all climbed back down so Sam could show them the way through the secret passages.


I missed that because my TV doesn't show a lot of detail in all of those dark on dark scenes. I couldn't see the direwolf head on Robb except as a silhouette. I'm going try a new bulb.

How about Cercie telling Tyrion she's not going to marry Loras?


----------



## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

JETarpon said:


> It was just a sausage. Not sausage and meat balls.


He may have already eaten the meatballs


----------



## grey ghost (Feb 2, 2010)

madscientist said:


> If you'd read the books you'd realize how much more there is in the third book, than we've seen this season. It would be insane to try to fit it all in to 10 hours. As it is there are many things left out. I'm with others who have said that, exactly the opposite to your opinion, I still think they're leaving out stuff I'd like to see.


I have not read the books, but I still think some stuff they have chosen to include is boring. Theon hanging endlessly on the scaffold being tortured is boring. It's not even in the books as you've just pointed out. I didn't need to know about the red-headed wildling's sexual habits or see the wildlings or the Reeds endlessly trudging across the toward different sides of the wall.

I just think the writing could have been tighter than it was this year. Too much extraneous stuff for me, but more power to you if you enjoyed it.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DreadPirateRob said:


> The Wall was erected to keep the Others at bay, but there is no magic keeping them on the north side of the Wall.


How do you know that? Mance Rayder begs to differ.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

john4200 said:


> How do you know that? Mance Rayder begs to differ.


Because it's never been mentioned in the books or the tv show, that's how.



Spoiler



As for Mance, in the books he admits that he'd never sound the Horn of Joramun even if he found it because if the Wall fell there would be nothing to stop the Others, and since he is trying to get his people away from the Others, that would be stupid.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

MegaHertz67 said:


> .
> 
> 4. And Jon Snow (who still knows nothing) assuming Ygritte would still love him and not hurt him after he betrayed her and her people was hopeful at best. He'd might have been better off asking her to come with him and offer her protection. Might not have worked, but it might have spared him an arrow or two.


Jon Snow: "I know that I love you and you love me."

_Twwwtt!
Twwwtt!
Twwwtt!_

"Love Hurts. Oww,"

So, are all noble bastards named "Snow"?


----------



## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

JYoung said:


> So, are all noble bastards named "Snow"?


Just the ones from the North. Other regions have different surnames for their bastards.


----------



## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Trying to think whats keeping Sansa tethered with the land of the living at this point..at least Arya has revenge to keep her alive.


----------



## jimmyjjohn (Jun 11, 2013)

Hi 

I always re-watch, but what did they say about Edmure?


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

He spent the night in a cell.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> So was it really Tyrion that sent Varys to get rid of Shae? Obviously it would be more like Tyrion to have a sack of diamonds to give away than it would Varys, but I thought Tyrion would have a bit more honor than to send someone else to do his work for him.





LordKronos said:


> That's how I took it, up until Shae said that and Varys said nothing back.


I took his silence to just mean that he realized she wasn't going to be persuaded. By throwing the jewels on the ground and saying Tyrion could tell her himself, she is saying basically that she doesn't believe Varys is acting on behalf of Tyrion because she doesn't believe he would actually want her to leave. 
Unless I read that scene wrong too!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Varys was being super nice and polite. She could have just handed the diamonds back to him!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Varys was being super nice and polite. She could have just handed the diamonds back to him!


She is "I'm Shae, the stupid whore" and the "you want to f*** her" lady. No, she couldn't have.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Varys was being super nice and polite. She could have just handed the diamonds back to him!


He thought he was. However, he was being pretty insulting in her eyes, I'd guess.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

so how long does someone like her survive if she goes around insulting people with real power? Varys can just as easily have her killed as buy her off. In fact, this should be plan B for him if buying her off doesn't work (and have Tyrion believe she left him).


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Anubys said:


> so how long does someone like her survive if she goes around insulting people with real power? Varys can just as easily have her killed as buy her off. In fact, this should be plan B for him if buying her off doesn't work (and have Tyrion believe she left him).


Nobody said she was smart.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> He thought he was. However, he was being pretty insulting in her eyes, I'd guess.


Everything is insulting in her eyes. Every other thing Tyrion did to try and help her was some sort of insult in her eyes.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Changing topics, and I know we've discussed this for a long while with Jaime, but hasn't our perception of The Hound changed considerably over the 3 seasons?

The guy is practically a saint relative to season 1.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> Everything is insulting in her eyes. Every other thing Tyrion did to try and help her was some sort of insult in her eyes.


I never said I agreed with her. 



Anubys said:


> Changing topics, and I know we've discussed this for a long while with Jaime, but hasn't our perception of The Hound changed considerably over the 3 seasons?
> 
> The guy is practically a saint relative to season 1.


Yeah my opinion has changed. I think I've had a lot of change of opinion on characters since the start of the show to be honest.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Everything is insulting in her eyes. Every other thing Tyrion did to try and help her was some sort of insult in her eyes.


Sometimes a stupid whore is just a stupid whore.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Sometimes a stupid whore is just a stupid whore.


And in her case, she's way out of her depth. She just doesn't get who she's dealing with.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Changing topics, and I know we've discussed this for a long while with Jaime, but hasn't our perception of The Hound changed considerably over the 3 seasons?
> 
> The guy is practically a saint relative to season 1.


Most definitely! The last couple of episodes I was even thinking he even looks more appealing and not as menacing, although his costuming and makeup do not appear to have changed.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

The thing with how Martin writes is that you get a view from inside the character (based on the POV writing) and characters that are obviously evil one chapter take on new depth when you see the world through their eyes. It's good that the show is able to convey depth to the Hound and others so that there are fewer obviously evil characters. There are fewer obviously good ones too. They got killed.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Changing topics, and I know we've discussed this for a long while with Jaime, but hasn't our perception of The Hound changed considerably over the 3 seasons?
> 
> The guy is practically a saint relative to season 1.


Yes and no. I think there was some of this (kindness? Not sure what you'd call it) in S1 when he scooped up Arya after Ned's beheading. You could see he had a soft spot for her. I don't think she saw it though until now.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Yes and no. I think there was some of this (kindness? Not sure what you'd call it) in S1 when he scooped up Arya after Ned's beheading. You could see he had a soft spot for her. I don't think she saw it though until now.


That wasn't him. That was the Night Watch recruiter who later died fighting the people who came to kill Gendry.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> That wasn't him. That was the Night Watch recruiter who later died fighting the people who came to kill Gendry.


Am I not remembering correctly, but didn't the Hound catch Arya at the time of Ned's death? Didn't he defeat her mentor? And the Hound carried her off.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Anubys said:


> That wasn't him. That was the Night Watch recruiter who later died fighting the people who came to kill Gendry.


expanding a little, the Hound did stop Sansa from trying to push Joffrey off the ledge (when he was showing her Ned's head, among others). He always had a soft spot for Sansa, but it could be interpreted "in a creepy way" for a while given how mean he was.

Even risking his life to save Sansa from rape could be interpreted as doing his job (and liking it). Only by the "little bird" comments and his offer at the end of Blackwater did you see how much he cared about Sansa (or is it little girls?).

But he is slowly turning into the Clint Eastwood, lone hero, kind of guy. I'm sure there will be more changes (bad or good). It's a testament to how well the books are written. I can't wait to finally read the books when the show's run is complete.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Am I not remembering correctly, but didn't the Hound catch Arya at the time of Ned's death? Didn't he defeat her mentor? And the Hound carried her off.


No, he caught her just recently, when she was a "guest" of the bandits in the cave. He defeated the guy who keeps dying.

She gets carried off a lot, so I can see where it might get confusing...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Am I not remembering correctly, but didn't the Hound catch Arya at the time of Ned's death? Didn't he defeat her mentor? And the Hound carried her off.


You're not remembering correctly. The tough guy from the Night's Watch was with Arya (I think Ned saw her in the crowd and told him to go to the Baelor statue, where Arya was standing). That guy shielded Arya so she did not see Ned's head being cutoff. I can only assume the Hound was by Joffrey's side (he wasn't relevant to the proceedings, so I don't recall where he was).


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Am I not remembering correctly, but didn't the Hound catch Arya at the time of Ned's death? Didn't he defeat her mentor? And the Hound carried her off.


Oh, and as far as her mentor (sorry, don't remember his name), that was some random 3-4 guys attacking him. All he had was a wooden sword. And we don't know what happened to him (I hope he returns!). But the Hound was not there, either


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Oh, and as far as her mentor (sorry, don't remember his name), that was some random 3-4 guys attacking him. All he had was a wooden sword. And we don't know what happened to him (I hope he returns!). But the Hound was not there, either


Thanks. Keeping these characters straight, especially after not seeing the episode for 2 years is tough. I always thought it was The Hound, but I guess not.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Thanks. Keeping these characters straight, especially after not seeing the episode for 2 years is tough. I always thought it was The Hound, but I guess not.


Meh! They all look alike anyway.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

allan said:


> Meh! They all look alike anyway.


Boy, isn't THAT the truth!!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Does anyone remember that mentor's name and if he came from Braavos?


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

The "dance instructor"? His name was Syrio.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> The "dance instructor"? His name was Syrio.


ah, yes. Thanks.

Is he from Braavos?


----------



## jeff92k7 (Jan 18, 2006)

Loved the reaction from the Hound when he asked Arya where she got the knife.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Does anyone remember that mentor's name and if he came from Braavos?


Syrio Forrell, I believe


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> ah, yes. Thanks.
> 
> Is he from Braavos?


Yes. When Jaqen said he was from Bravos, she said her dancing instructor was from there.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> ah, yes. Thanks.
> 
> Is he from Braavos?


I had to Google, but yes.....he is from Braavos.


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> Am I not remembering correctly, but didn't the Hound catch Arya at the time of Ned's death? Didn't he defeat her mentor? And the Hound carried her off.


No, that was Yoren of the Night's Watch. He took her at the statue at Baelor's Sept when Ned was executed. He took her along with others from King's Landing to take to the wall. Gentry, Hot Pie, Lommy Greenhands and Jaqen H'ghar were all in that party.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

audioscience said:


> No, that was Yoren of the Night's Watch. He took her at the statue at Baelor's Sept when Ned was executed. He took her along with others from King's Landing to take to the wall. Gentry, Hot Pie, Lommy Greenhands and Jaqen H'ghar were all in that party.


Yep, well established here. My bad. I tend to get a lot of the characters confused. Especially ones from events that happened 2 seasons ago.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Good article in EW with quotes from GRRM, Benioff, and Weiss about how the series will progress from here and the possibility of the production catching up with the books.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/09/game-of-thrones-future/



> Of greater concern is the pace of books vs. seasons. It's an issue that fans pointed out from the moment the show was greenlit and now even HBO is beginning to realize there could be an issue. Book 5 took Martin six years to write and it was released in 2011. "I finally understand fans' fear - which I didn't a couple years ago: What if the storytelling catches up to the books?," says HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. "Let's all hope and pray that's not going to be a problem"
> 
> Martin, for one, isn't worried. The way the author sees it, producers have plenty of material to keep Thrones rolling. "I think the odds against that happening are very long," Martin says when asked about the show catching up to his novels. "I still have a lead of several gigantic books. If they include everything in the books, I don't think they're going to catch up with me. If they do, we'll have some interesting discussions."


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> I had to Google, but yes.....he is from Braavos.


Thanks. I don't google ANYTHING about GoT for fear of spoilers 

So it seems that Braavos is some special place (I see where it is on the map; about the only thing I use that is GoT on the internet) where masters are aplenty.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Because it's never been mentioned in the books or the tv show, that's how.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



According to Sam there is magic in the wall that keeps the Others out as well as acting as a physical barrier. I think it is mentioned in Sam's last chapter of the third book, or close to that.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Shaunnick said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> According to Sam there is magic in the wall that keeps the Others out as well as acting as a physical barrier. I think it is mentioned in Sam's last chapter of the third book, or close to that.





Spoiler



Sam mentions it in SoS, chapter 56 -- the wall will not let Coldhands pass through the tunnel. Also, Mance Rayder mentions the magic that keeps the Others from crossing, but I don't have the quote for that one handy.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Thanks. I don't google ANYTHING about GoT for fear of spoilers


Ha! When I did it I actually panicked for a just a second thinking to myself "What have you done!" But I managed to get in and out with no damage, although it was a risky move. I clearly wasn't thinking.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Thanks. I don't google ANYTHING about GoT for fear of spoilers


We saw who I thought was a very young Jojen Reed in a movie last night and I asked my daughter (non book reader, had her laptop with her) to look him up and she refused, saying "I won't google ANYTHING about Game of Thrones".


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jehma said:


> We saw who I thought was a very young Jojen Reed in a movie last night and I asked my daughter (non book reader, had her laptop with her) to look him up and she refused, saying "I won't google ANYTHING about Game of Thrones".


No reason to Google in that situation. Just go to imdb.com, put in the name of the movie you were watching, look at the cast list, and see if the kid who played the character is also the same one in GoT.

Here is Thomas Brodie-Sangster's (Jojen Reed) IMDb page:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1032473/

Now you'll have to let us know if it's the same kid and what movie it was.

And just for those who didn't know, the kid who plays Jojen Reed is also the voice of Ferb on Phineas and Ferb.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Even IMDB is not necessarily safe in a situation where they are already filming the next season.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

zordude said:


> Even IMDB is not necessarily safe in a situation where they are already filming the next season.


How so? I mean, I guess if you are die hard anti-spoiler and don't even want to know what new actors or new characters are involved, then yeah. But I don't think most people are that extreme. It doesn't really spoil much to know an actor is in the next season, or the name of some new random character (unless, of course, the character's name is listed as John "Joffrey Slayer" Doe)


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> According to Sam there is magic in the wall that keeps the Others out as well as acting as a physical barrier. I think it is mentioned in Sam's last chapter of the third book, or close to that.





john4200 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Sam mentions it in SoS, chapter 56 -- the wall will not let Coldhands pass through the tunnel. Also, Mance Rayder mentions the magic that keeps the Others from crossing, but I don't have the quote for that one handy.


Fair enough. I had apparently forgotten that part. 



Spoiler



That doesn't mean that the Wall is impervious to the Others. If it were destroyed then, according to Mance at least, it appears the Others would be able to cross it.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Fair enough. I had apparently forgotten that part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know we have a book discussion thread but I wanted to toss this out there-



Spoiler



I always thought it was bad news that Mance never found that horn thing that can bring down the wall. After all, if the Wall is manned because it becomes apparent to everyone the White Walkers are back then how do they get past the wall? Finding the horn would be my guess.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> No reason to Google in that situation. Just go to imdb.com, put in the name of the movie you were watching, look at the cast list, and see if the kid who played the character is also the same one in GoT.
> 
> Here is Thomas Brodie-Sangster's (Jojen Reed) IMDb page:
> 
> ...


It was "Love Actually" and it was him.

It's actually easier to google by his GOT character to get the actor's name. There are a ton of actors in Love Actually, and it would have taken me a while to find him (full cast and crew, look through tiny photos, etc). Also, I had to get my daughter to do it since she was the only one in the room with a web surfing device at that moment and she was only going to deal with a momentary interruption.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jehma said:


> It was "Love Actually" and it was him.
> 
> It's actually easier to google by his GOT character to get the actor's name. There are a ton of actors in Love Actually, and it would have taken me a while to find him (full cast and crew, look through tiny photos, etc). Also, I had to get my daughter to do it since she was the only one in the room with a web surfing device at that moment and she was only going to deal with a momentary interruption.


Depends on what type of device you're using. On the website, you can enter a character name and it will pull up a result. On the (iPhone) app, character names don't return any results. No idea why this is. Since I'm usually using my iPhone to look up stuff as I'm watching TV or movies, I haven't been in the habit of looking up character names.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> How so? I mean, I guess if you are die hard anti-spoiler and don't even want to know what new actors or new characters are involved, then yeah. But I don't think most people are that extreme. It doesn't really spoil much to know an actor is in the next season, or the name of some new random character (unless, of course, the character's name is listed as John "Joffrey Slayer" Doe)


What if you see that Kristian Nairn, who plays Hodor, is listed from 2011-2013, while the other actors are all listed 2011-? You could then deduce that Hodor will not be returning. THAT is a spoiler.

That's not the case, btw, for some reason IMDb lists ALL the current actors as -2013. That's another thing, IMDb is often wrong. 

Greg


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Fair enough. I had apparently forgotten that part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Of course it means that Others cannot cross the wall. Only if the wall, including its magic, is destroyed by the magic horn can the Others cross. That is essentially what the statement by Mance Rayder (that I do not have a reference yet) said.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Mhysa sounds like the beginning of a Jar Jar Binks line.

If I stick with this show, I hope they end up with some catch-up narratives, like they did with Lost. I know for a fact that by the time it's on again, I'm going to have forgotten a lot of the story lines and secondary characters.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

gchance said:


> What if you see that Kristian Nairn, who plays Hodor, is listed from 2011-2013, while the other actors are all listed 2011-? You could then deduce that Hodor will not be returning. THAT is a spoiler.
> 
> That's not the case, btw, for some reason IMDb lists ALL the current actors as -2013. That's another thing, IMDb is often wrong.
> 
> Greg


If you right to the episode guide, it only shows cast members for that episode without any other dates associated to them. No spoilers, if it is an episode you've seen.

Google is the easiest way to get a spoiler by accident.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

jehma said:


> We saw who I thought was a very young Jojen Reed in a movie last night and I asked my daughter (non book reader, had her laptop with her) to look him up and she refused, saying "I won't google ANYTHING about Game of Thrones".


Nanny McFee. Love Actually.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Mhysa sounds like the beginning of a Jar Jar Binks line.
> 
> If I stick with this show, I hope they end up with some catch-up narratives, like they did with Lost. I know for a fact that by the time it's on again, I'm going to have forgotten a lot of the story lines and secondary characters.


Before this season started, HBO aired a catch-up show that basically summarized all of S2. I was feeling exactly like you, and wasn't sure I'd be able to remember anything, but watching that 15-20 minute catch up brought it all back very quickly.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Good article in EW with quotes from GRRM, Benioff, and Weiss about how the series will progress from here and the possibility of the production catching up with the books.
> 
> http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/09/game-of-thrones-future/


I think there is a possibility that book 6 could be done before they get there but I don't think there is much of a chance that he will have book 7 done in time. He just doesn't write that fast.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

gchance said:


> What if you see that Kristian Nairn, who plays Hodor, is listed from 2011-2013, while the other actors are all listed 2011-? You could then deduce that Hodor will not be returning. THAT is a spoiler.
> 
> That's not the case, btw, for some reason IMDb lists ALL the current actors as -2013. That's another thing, IMDb is often wrong.
> 
> Greg


No, IMDB is not wrong. As far as I've ever seen, IMDB never lists anybody as year-?, because IMDB is does not track the status of any show's story. It's merely a finite list of precisely what episodes/movies actors have worked on as of today, according to the information they have received thus far. So even if you see Hodor as 2011-2013 while Tyrion is 2011-2014, all that tells you is that Hodor has not yet appeared in any of the episodes that IMDB has information on yet, according to the information receieved.

So there are 2 things to take form that. The first is that, just because an actor is not listed for a future episode, that does not mean he's not in that episode. The other is that, just because a character is not listed in one or more episodes, that doesn't mean he's dead. We've had 30 episodes so far, but Hodor was only it 16. Does that mean hodor was ever dead?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Azlen said:


> I think there is a possibility that book 6 could be done before they get there but I don't think there is much of a chance that he will have book 7 done in time. He just doesn't write that fast.


That article seems to indicate a pretty serious disconnect between Martin (who says the producers have plenty of material to tide them over while he's writing more books) and the producers (who talk about trimming material, and who have otherwise said they plan to keep the show finite at a specific length).

It makes me wonder if Martin is as involved in the ongoing production of the show as has been assumed, or if he participated in the initial development and now just writes his one episode a year. I'd seen some interviews with him where he seemed to imply that he's only in contact with the TV people when he does annual set visits, and I assumed I was misreading him...but maybe not?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> No, IMDB is not wrong. As far as I've ever seen, IMDB never lists anybody as year-?, because IMDB is does not track the status of any show's story. It's merely a finite list of precisely what episodes/movies actors have worked on as of today, according to the information they have received thus far. So even if you see Hodor as 2011-2013 while Tyrion is 2011-2014, all that tells you is that Hodor has not yet appeared in any of the episodes that IMDB has information on yet, according to the information receieved.
> 
> So there are 2 things to take form that. The first is that, just because an actor is not listed for a future episode, that does not mean he's not in that episode. The other is that, just because a character is not listed in one or more episodes, that doesn't mean he's dead. We've had 30 episodes so far, but Hodor was only it 16. Does that mean hodor was ever dead?


Not to mention that imdb is often incomplete. They don't have info on every actor on every episode so you may see too few episodes for someone who appeared in every show. More true for long running shows or things like soap operas or talk shows, etc.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

GTuck said:


> The Theon scenes are getting pretty disturbing, at least his sister wants to save him.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


What I want to know is how does one relieve themselves without his private part?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Very messily.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Johncv said:


> What I want to know is how does one relieve themselves without his private part?


Water still comes out of the spigot, even when there's no hose attached. It just sprays everywhere.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Johncv said:


> What I want to know is how does one relieve themselves without his private part?


Did you know that girls pee, too?


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Did you know that girls pee, too?


Yes, but their plumbing is intact, albeit internal.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That article seems to indicate a pretty serious disconnect between Martin (who says the producers have plenty of material to tide them over while he's writing more books) and the producers (who talk about trimming material, and who have otherwise said they plan to keep the show finite at a specific length).


To pour more fuel on this fire...

In that article, the showrunners comment that seven seasons seem to be the magic number for them. Assuming that S4 is the rest of Book 3 (with the usual allowance for wandering plotlines here & there), that leaves three seasons to cover the last four books. That some serious condensing.

Ok, 2014 for S4/B3.5. 2015/2016/2017 for the rest of the TV series. Even if GRRM publishes sooner than ever, Book 6 won't be before 2014, and more likely 2015. Does anyone really think he'll get the finale Book 7 out two years later?

Methinks HBO needs to start plotting their endgame now. Cause there ain't no way he concludes it sooner than they do.

Not a pretty scenario.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Methinks HBO needs to start plotting their endgame now. Cause there ain't no way he concludes it sooner than they do..


Maybe they'll just cut to black


----------



## lambertman (Dec 21, 2002)

morac said:


> Maybe they'll just cut to black


Don't Stop Believin'/Hold on through that lee-e-chin'


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

astrohip said:


> To pour more fuel on this fire...
> 
> In that article, the showrunners comment that seven seasons seem to be the magic number for them. Assuming that S4 is the rest of Book 3 (with the usual allowance for wandering plotlines here & there), that leaves three seasons to cover the last four books. That some serious condensing.
> 
> ...


I posted the same scenario 1-2 weeks ago, and I completely agree.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

astrohip said:


> To pour more fuel on this fire...
> 
> In that article, the showrunners comment that seven seasons seem to be the magic number for them. Assuming that S4 is the rest of Book 3 (with the usual allowance for wandering plotlines here & there), that leaves three seasons to cover the last four books. That some serious condensing.
> 
> ...


If they go with 7 seasons then there is absolutely no way that he will have book 7 done in time. I think the number of seasons they are going to do is probably the key disconnect between Martin and the showrunners.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I posted the same scenario 1-2 weeks ago, and I completely agree.


Same here. There's plenty of stuff in those gigantic books that can be cut. Plenty.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

markp99 said:


> Yes, but their plumbing is intact, albeit internal.


and not cauterized. Because otherwise he would have bled to death.

Of all the things they could focus on with 10 hours of film to cover hundreds of pages, Theon's waterworks was a very poor choice. Discuss it or have it in a letter if it's important to the story, but a scene with a sausage? Even if that's in the book, skip it.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

astrohip said:


> To pour more fuel on this fire...
> 
> In that article, the showrunners comment that seven seasons seem to be the magic number for them. Assuming that S4 is the rest of Book 3 (with the usual allowance for wandering plotlines here & there), that leaves three seasons to cover the last four books. That some serious condensing.
> 
> ...


You are assuming they cover all te written material. That may not be a good assumption.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

markp99 said:


> Yes, but their plumbing is intact, albeit internal.


All of a guys "plumbing" is pretty much internal, too. The portion that is in the penis is just a simple tube. Shorten the tube all you like, and the only think you really lose is the ability to aim it, which makes it basically the same as a girl.

Also:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_eunuch_pee_when_they_don't_have_penises

Interestingly, if you search google for "eunuch urinate", the first result is "How does Lord Varys urinate".



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Of all the things they could focus on with 10 hours of film to cover hundreds of pages, Theon's waterworks was a very poor choice. Discuss it or have it in a letter if it's important to the story, but a scene with a sausage? Even if that's in the book, skip it.


I think that really depends on how big a role Ramsey Bolton plays in the upcoming story. If it is significant, then this does sort of help establish just what a creep he is.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Azlen said:


> If they go with 7 seasons then there is absolutely no way that he will have book 7 done in time. I think the number of seasons they are going to do is probably the key disconnect between Martin and the showrunners.


How old is GRRM? Not to sound gruesome, but he looks old and out of shape. I suppose, at the rate he's going, it's entirely possible there may never be a book 7, or at least a completed version. Has he spelled out to the HBO producers what the end game for the series is supposed to be?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> How old is GRRM? Not to sound gruesome, but he looks old and out of shape. I suppose, at the rate he's going, it's entirely possible there may never be a book 7, or at least a completed version. Has he spelled out to the HBO producers what the end game for the series is supposed to be?


Yes.

And he's also given them the go-ahead to, well, go ahead if they pass him.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The tv series can always film more Theon torture scenes if it starts to catch up to the books.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> The tv series can always film more Theon torture scenes if it starts to catch up to the books.


I think they are going to spin that off into another series. Game of Torture


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

I am geographically confused about something.

Sam used the dragonglass to kill one of The Others, at which point he and Gilly were (I thought) still north of, and trying to make their way to, The Wall. Bran & company were (I thought) holed up somewhere near, but south of, The Wall. If Sam & Gilly were trying to get to The Wall from the north, how/why did they run into Bran & Co. _south of The Wall?_


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> All of a guys "plumbing" is pretty much internal, too. The portion that is in the penis is just a simple tube.


Legs crossed, to protect my external plumbing!


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

That whole storyline is annoying to me. Bran's extensive coverage of his "journey" is as useless as the torture scenes, IMO.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Dawghows said:


> I am geographically confused about something.
> 
> Sam used the dragonglass to kill one of The Others, at which point he and Gilly were (I thought) still north of, and trying to make their way to, The Wall. Bran & company were (I thought) holed up somewhere near, but south of, The Wall. If Sam & Gilly were trying to get to The Wall from the north, how/why did they run into Bran & Co. _south of The Wall?_


_

I haven't watched the episode but from what I gathered reading here (I think) Sam knew of a secret passage under the wall and it came out where Bran was. Which I assume will come in handy since Bran is trying to get to the other side to continue his journey with Ferb._


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Final Facebook Game of Thrones page,

http://www.happyplace.com/24434/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-10

As to Sam and Bran, Bran's team was holed up in the Nightfort. Sam also happened to be aiming for the Nightfort because he knew of a secret passage underneath the wall that led to it. They just happened to get there the same night. So when Sam reached the south side of the wall, there was Bran and team ready to go north.


----------



## jeff92k7 (Jan 18, 2006)

markp99 said:


> Legs crossed, to protect my external plumbing!


Agreed. Just because the reservoir is internal doesn't mean that most of the plumbing is. There are other plumbing connections externally that are very important.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Dawghows said:


> I am geographically confused about something.
> 
> Sam used the dragonglass to kill one of The Others, at which point he and Gilly were (I thought) still north of, and trying to make their way to, The Wall. Bran & company were (I thought) holed up somewhere near, but south of, The Wall. If Sam & Gilly were trying to get to The Wall from the north, how/why did they run into Bran & Co. _south_ of The Wall?


I though they were holed up in one of the Nights Watch castles on (at?) the wall. The story Bran tells is of the Nights Watch cook.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jakerock said:


> I haven't watched the episode but from what I gathered reading here (I think) Sam knew of a secret passage under the wall and it came out where Bran was. Which I assume will come in handy since Bran is trying to get to the other side to continue his journey with Ferb.


Yes, that's correct. We found out about that tunnel in that scene where Sam was talking about it and Gilly said "wow, you're like a wizard".

And yes, I believe we saw in this episode that Sam showed Bran the tunnel and you see Hodor wheeling him down it. At least I think we saw that. I'm not paying the most careful attention to that part. For all of you complaining about the torture scenes, I'm 10 times as interested in the torture as I am in anything going on with Bran. Heck, I'm more interested in checking up on how Duck Sauce is doing in that vault than I am in Bran. I'm even more interested in what Hodor is up to than I am in Bran.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jeff92k7 said:


> Agreed. Just because the reservoir is internal doesn't mean that most of the plumbing is. There are other plumbing connections externally that are very important.


Please enlighten me as to what all of these very important external connections are.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

and that "secret" tunnel didn't look very well hidden at all as Bran et al were going through it...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> You are assuming they cover all te written material. That may not be a good assumption.


Based on that article, it's GRRM that is assuming this. He says they have lots of material to cover, so he doesn't think they'll catch him, but what he doesn't realize is that much of it probably doesn't translate very well to the screen, and the art of writing a TV episode is very different than the art of writing a novel. If they want the TV show to actually be a good TV show, they'll have to do a ton of condensing and leave a lot of characters out, and then they'll quickly be caught up to the books.



Anubys said:


> and that "secret" tunnel didn't look very well hidden at all as Bran et al were going through it...


I think that was simply a necessity of filming. The opening to the tunnel on the north side is supposed to be secret. So presumably it wouldn't just be a big opening with light streaming in. But having Bran and Hodor walking into a dark tunnel wouldn't look very good on screen, nor would people realize where they were going. So it was just a bit of cinematic efficiency to quickly convey what was going on in a well-framed shot rather than making the shot more realistic yet less visually pleasing and requiring extra dialogue to explain.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Also the tunnel doesn't need to be as secret on this side of the wall. The wall is to keep the North out, not the South in.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

jakerock said:


> Also the tunnel doesn't need to be as secret on this side of the wall. The wall is to keep the North out, not the South in.


Except people from _this_ side of the wall go to _that_ side of the wall. If this side isn't secret, that side won't be secret for very long.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> ...but what he doesn't realize is that much of it probably doesn't translate very well to the screen, and the art of writing a TV episode is very different than the art of writing a novel.


Actually, what you do not seem to realize is that Martin *was* and *is* a TV writer. He wrote for several TV series in the 80s, most notably Beauty and the Beast, and he writes an episode each season for GoT.

No, the problem is not that Martin does not realize what is necessary to write for TV. The problem is that Martin does not realize that a lot of what he wrote in books 4 and 5 is just boring, and should have been edited out of the books, and will certainly be skipped for TV.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JETarpon said:


> Except people from _this_ side of the wall go to _that_ side of the wall. If this side isn't secret, that side won't be secret for very long.


And we were seeing the North side, not the south. :shrug:


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JETarpon said:


> Except people from _this_ side of the wall go to _that_ side of the wall. If this side isn't secret, that side won't be secret for very long.


And the people on the south side, camped right on top of the entrance, did not even know the passage was there until Sam appeared.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Actually, what you do not seem to realize is that Martin *was* and *is* a TV writer. He wrote for several TV series in the 80s, most notably Beauty and the Beast, and he writes an episode each season for GoT.
> 
> No, the problem is not that Martin does not realize what is necessary to write for TV. The problem is that Martin does not realize that a lot of what he wrote in books 4 and 5 is just boring, and should have been edited out of the books, and will certainly be skipped for TV.


I know GRRM has experience in TV writing. But he seems to think Benioff and Weiss are going to be able to film every minute story in books 4 and 5 and that will buy him enough time to finish books 6 and 7. I don't think he realizes that in order to make the show palatable for average viewers who haven't read the books, most of that material will need to be cut and thus those two books would take only 2-3 seasons of TV.

In other words, I think we're saying the same thing.



jakerock said:


> Also the tunnel doesn't need to be as secret on this side of the wall. The wall is to keep the North out, not the South in.


That shot we see of Bran and Hodor walking down the tunnel into the bright light is them walking toward the opening in the North side of the wall. If the opening is that big and lets in that much light, then it really can't be all that secret. But I already explained above why it doesn't really matter and was just a necessity for TV.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think he realizes that in order to make the show palatable for average viewers who haven't read the books, most of that material will need to be cut and thus those two books would take only 2-3 seasons of TV.
> 
> In other words, I think we're saying the same thing.


Close, but not quite the same thing.

Most of the viewers who have read the books (that have commented in the book thread) want the show to skip large parts of books 4 and 5 as well. The problem is not about how much good book material can or cannot be adapted to TV. The problem is that there is not as much good book material in books 4 and 5 as Martin seems to think there is.

In my opinion, books 4 and 5 could have been combined into one book, cutting out more than half of the material, and the combined book still would not have as much good story in it as book 3 does. Season 4 should mostly cover the second half of book 3. I hope that season 5 covers both books 4 and 5 (and perhaps even the beginning of book 6). Then the TV writers may have to start writing their own conclusion (with Martin's outline) in seasons 6 & 7, since I doubt Martin will be finished with book 6, let alone book 7, in time.


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## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

For those that like to look up characters, plots, genealogy of GoT without spoilers, This website:

http://towerofthehand.com/

Does a great job in that the first time you go there, you set your scope, how much of the show you have watched or have read. No spoilers that way.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Actually, what you do not seem to realize is that Martin *was* and *is* a TV writer. He wrote for several TV series in the 80s, most notably Beauty and the Beast, and he writes an episode each season for GoT.


In fact, one of the great ironies of GoT (the books) is that Martin started the series when he quit Hollywood, in frustration at all the things you can't do on TV.

His intent was to write unfilmable books. 

(And of course when he started the series, it would have been almost inconceivable that a decent TV show could ever be made from it, both in terms of content in a pre-HBO time, and budget in a pre-CGI time.)


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> (And of course when he started the series, it would have been almost *inconceivable* that a decent TV show could ever be made from it, both in terms of content in a pre-HBO time, and budget in a pre-CGI time.)


I don't think that means what you think it means. 

Sorry couldn't resist.

As far as the secret tunnel, I haven't seen the dang episode yet because my wife likes to safe it for the weekend so any theory I had was purely hypothesis.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

The solution to the show catching up to the books is, clearly, to have Martin write Season 6 and 7 of the TV series and then adapt that into the book later. He would have to do it with Benioff and Weiss standing over his shoulder, though, otherwise those seasons would be 100 episodes each.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

I'm not sure I'd bother reading books 6 and 7 if the show preceded them.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Dawghows said:


> I am geographically confused about something.
> 
> Sam used the dragonglass to kill one of The Others, at which point he and Gilly were (I thought) still north of, and trying to make their way to, The Wall. Bran & company were (I thought) holed up somewhere near, but south of, The Wall. If Sam & Gilly were trying to get to The Wall from the north, how/why did they run into Bran & Co. _south of The Wall?_


_



jakerock said:



I haven't watched the episode but from what I gathered reading here (I think) Sam knew of a secret passage under the wall and it came out where Bran was. Which I assume will come in handy since Bran is trying to get to the other side to continue his journey with Ferb.

Click to expand...




Shaunnick said:



As to Sam and Bran, Bran's team was holed up in the Nightfort. Sam also happened to be aiming for the Nightfort because he knew of a secret passage underneath the wall that led to it. They just happened to get there the same night. So when Sam reached the south side of the wall, there was Bran and team ready to go north.

Click to expand...




netringer said:



I though they were holed up in one of the Nights Watch castles on (at?) the wall. The story Bran tells is of the Nights Watch cook.

Click to expand...




LordKronos said:



Yes, that's correct. We found out about that tunnel in that scene where Sam was talking about it and Gilly said "wow, you're like a wizard".

And yes, I believe we saw in this episode that Sam showed Bran the tunnel and you see Hodor wheeling him down it. At least I think we saw that. I'm not paying the most careful attention to that part. For all of you complaining about the torture scenes, I'm 10 times as interested in the torture as I am in anything going on with Bran. Heck, I'm more interested in checking up on how Duck Sauce is doing in that vault than I am in Bran. I'm even more interested in what Hodor is up to than I am in Bran.

Click to expand...




Anubys said:



and that "secret" tunnel didn't look very well hidden at all as Bran et al were going through it...

Click to expand...




DevdogAZ said:



I think that was simply a necessity of filming. The opening to the tunnel on the north side is supposed to be secret. So presumably it wouldn't just be a big opening with light streaming in. But having Bran and Hodor walking into a dark tunnel wouldn't look very good on screen, nor would people realize where they were going. So it was just a bit of cinematic efficiency to quickly convey what was going on in a well-framed shot rather than making the shot more realistic yet less visually pleasing and requiring extra dialogue to explain.

Click to expand...




jakerock said:



Also the tunnel doesn't need to be as secret on this side of the wall. The wall is to keep the North out, not the South in.

Click to expand...




JETarpon said:



Except people from this side of the wall go to that side of the wall. If this side isn't secret, that side won't be secret for very long.

Click to expand...




Anubys said:



And we were seeing the North side, not the south. :shrug:

Click to expand...




john4200 said:



And the people on the south side, camped right on top of the entrance, did not even know the passage was there until Sam appeared.

Click to expand...




DevdogAZ said:



That shot we see of Bran and Hodor walking down the tunnel into the bright light is them walking toward the opening in the North side of the wall. If the opening is that big and lets in that much light, then it really can't be all that secret. But I already explained above why it doesn't really matter and was just a necessity for TV.

Click to expand...

Assuming they are following the book here, they are now at the Nightfort, one of the many uninhabited castles along The Wall. Although they didn't really show either Sam/Gilly or Bran/Hodor/Jojen/Meera looking at (or even approaching) The Wall, which would have given us a visual clue as to where they are.

Sam/Gilly came in through The Black Gate which is an enchanted gate which will only open when member of the Night's Watch recites a vow in front of it. So it doesn't really matter if it's secret or not, I suppose._


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Final Facebook Game of Thrones page,
> 
> http://www.happyplace.com/24434/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-10


Thanks for posting. Those are always gold.

Loved this part:


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Assuming they are following the book here, they are now at the Nightfort, one of the many uninhabited castles along The Wall. Although they didn't really show either Sam/Gilly or Bran/Hodor/Jojen/Meera looking at (or even approaching) The Wall, which would have given us a visual clue as to where they are.
> 
> Sam/Gilly came in through The Black Gate which is an enchanted gate which will only open when member of the Night's Watch recites a vow in front of it. So it doesn't really matter if it's secret or not, I suppose.


Thanks to all for helping me out here. I completely forgot that they were at the Nightfort. I've read the book, and I even remembered the enchanted gate, but for whatever reason I _totally_ spazzed out on the fact that they're AT THE WALL already. Duh.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

They showed Sam and Gilly looking at the wall in episode nine, and Bran and team saw the wall in this episode before they settled in at the Nightfort.

As to the secret tunnel, I am disappointed in how the show handled it. The big thing about the tunnel wasn't that there was a tunnel, (minor tidbit from the book)



Spoiler



it was that the gate for the tunnel was a weirwood tree that could only be "opened" by a man of the Night's Watch. It was a magical gate. The show skipped this completely. The weirwood's mouth would open wide enough for a person to walk through, and the only way to open it was for a man of the Night's Watch to recite his vows to the weirwood.



The above is a scene from the book which was not in the show. For people who want to avoid real spoilers but want to know things about how the books portrayed an event I recommend opening it. It will help explain the tunnel a little bit better than the show did.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I must have missed Bran/etc seeing The Wall. Thanks. 

And, agreed, the Black Gate was a much cooler scene in the book, and would have been fun to film/watch. Wonder if they cut it for time/special effects budget?


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

It occurs to me that Tywin is not teaching Joffrey anything to make him a better king. He's just working around him. No one is educating Joffrey -- he wouldn't stand for a teacher unless Tywin forced him.

If Tywin is all about the Lannister family, what's his master plan for after his own death? 10 years from now Tywin dies and Joffrey-the-idiot is the unrestricted King?

(Maybe Joffrey as King isn't his final goal.)


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Benioff is a great writer himself. City of Thieves is one of my favorite books.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> They showed Sam and Gilly looking at the wall in episode nine, and Bran and team saw the wall in this episode before they settled in at the Nightfort.
> 
> As to the secret tunnel, I am disappointed in how the show handled it. The big thing about the tunnel wasn't that there was a tunnel, (minor tidbit from the book)
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. Very interesting. So that means that Bran and Hodor won't be able to use that gate to get back across the Wall, if they eventually find the three-eyed raven and then need to come back.



tlc said:


> It occurs to me that Tywin is not teaching Joffrey anything to make him a better king. He's just working around him. No one is educating Joffrey -- he wouldn't stand for a teacher unless Tywin forced him.
> 
> If Tywin is all about the Lannister family, what's his master plan for after his own death? 10 years from now Tywin dies and Joffrey-the-idiot is the unrestricted King?
> 
> (Maybe Joffrey as King isn't his final goal.)


Joffrey is the Lannister's only legitimate claim to the throne. I think that unless/until there is another Lannister who could have a claim, then Tywin will suffer through with Joffrey. Maybe that's why Tywin is so adamant that Tyrion hurry and get Sansa preggers. Maybe then there would be a legitimate way to get rid of Joffrey and still have a Lannister be able to make a claim to the throne.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tlc said:


> It occurs to me that Tywin is not teaching Joffrey anything to make him a better king. He's just working around him. No one is educating Joffrey -- he wouldn't stand for a teacher unless Tywin forced him.
> 
> If Tywin is all about the Lannister family, what's his master plan for after his own death? 10 years from now Tywin dies and Joffrey-the-idiot is the unrestricted King?
> 
> (Maybe Joffrey as King isn't his final goal.)


Considering that Tywin is so busy planning the war that he doesn't even have time to leave the tower for meetings and makes everyone come to him, I doubt he has much time for teaching Joffrey (ignoring the fact that Joffrey is pretty much unteachable at this point).



DevdogAZ said:


> Joffrey is the Lannister's only legitimate claim to the throne. I think that unless/until there is another Lannister who could have a claim, then Tywin will suffer through with Joffrey. Maybe that's why Tywin is so adamant that Tyrion hurry and get Sansa preggers. Maybe then there would be a legitimate way to get rid of Joffrey and still have a Lannister be able to make a claim to the throne.


If Joffrey is considered to be a legitimate Lannister claim to the thrown, then in Joffrey's....ummm...."absense", the legitimate Lannister claim would be Joffrey's eldest son (if he can get it up for something other than murder long enough to have one), followed by Tommen (Cersei's youngest son). In either case, I think the case to be made would be that Tywin (or whoever he chooses, if he doesn't want the position) would serve as protector of the realm until the new king came of age.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> (And of course *when he started the series*, it would have been almost inconceivable that a decent TV show could ever be made from it, both in terms of content *in a pre-HBO time*, and budget in a pre-CGI time.)


I know he writes slow, but not THAT slow.


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## jeff92k7 (Jan 18, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> They showed Sam and Gilly looking at the wall in episode nine, and Bran and team saw the wall in this episode before they settled in at the Nightfort.


I could swear that Bran and his crew were showing walking towards the fort/castle. Yes, the wall was there too, but the shot showed the fort/castle in the distance as they walked up the hillside/cliffside to it. I remember thinking that it was kind of odd to have such steep hills on the south side of the fort/castle if it's all supposed to be flat land that people built an ice wall on.


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## jeff92k7 (Jan 18, 2006)

See pic....


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff92k7 said:


> I could swear that Bran and his crew were showing walking towards the fort/castle. Yes, the wall was there too, but the shot showed the fort/castle in the distance as they walked up the hillside/cliffside to it. I remember thinking that it was kind of odd to have such steep hills on the south side of the fort/castle if it's all supposed to be flat land that people built an ice wall on.


When we saw Samwell and Gilly approaching the Wall from the north side, it also sloped up quite a bit before the slope met the wall. If you were an engineer and were going to build a massive wall like they did, wouldn't you choose the highest point you could find and then build on top of that, rather than start in a valley or on some flat plains?

And maybe the books provide a better explanation of this, but most of my conceptual knowledge of the wall comes from the way it's depicted in the opening credits of the TV show. What is to stop wildlings and anyone else from just getting in a boat on the north side of the wall and then sailing around the wall and landing somewhere on the south side?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> ...And maybe the books provide a better explanation of this, but most of my conceptual knowledge of the wall comes from the way it's depicted in the opening credits of the TV show. What is to stop wildlings and anyone else from just getting in a boat on the north side of the wall and then sailing around the wall and landing somewhere on the south side?


Didn't Mace's wilding army with Jon Snow mention boating around the wall? I think the sea is a thousand miles away.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> I know he writes slow, but not THAT slow.


Well, Game of Thrones was published in 1996. Oz started in 1997, and The Sopranos in 1999, so it's a pretty safe bet that when Martin started writing GoT, a TV series of that scope and intensity on HBO (or anyplace) would have been (cough) inconceivable.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> And maybe the books provide a better explanation of this, but most of my conceptual knowledge of the wall comes from the way it's depicted in the opening credits of the TV show. What is to stop wildlings and anyone else from just getting in a boat on the north side of the wall and then sailing around the wall and landing somewhere on the south side?


The books do talk about it somewhat. Mild spoilers below (but not of any TV-content or future events in the books).



Spoiler



The eastern border of The Wall ends at the Bay of Seals, which is patrolled by the Night's Watch who are garrisoned at Eastwatch-By-The-Sea, one of the three castles currently inhabited. They patrol the Bay in boats, but it is commonly known that wildlings do slip by from time to time. As long as it's a small group, the Watch isn't too concerned about that.

The western border of The Wall is in the Frostfangs Mountains, where a river called The Gorge flows in the Bay of Ice. The castle there is called Shadow Tower, and it is the other Watch-inhabited castle at the time of the GoT (there are 19 castles in all, but only 3 are manned by this time: the two border castles as well as Castle Black in the middle).


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Assuming they are following the book here, they are now at the Nightfort, one of the many uninhabited castles along The Wall. Although they didn't really show either Sam/Gilly or Bran/Hodor/Jojen/Meera looking at (or even approaching) The Wall, which would have given us a visual clue as to where they are.
> 
> Sam/Gilly came in through The Black Gate which is an enchanted gate which will only open when member of the Night's Watch recites a vow in front of it. So it doesn't really matter if it's secret or not, I suppose.


They only mentioned the Nightfort and going there like a hundred (well, maybe a few) times.

Seemed obvious to me where they were and I haven't read any of the books.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I must have missed Bran/etc seeing The Wall. Thanks.
> 
> And, agreed, the Black Gate was a much cooler scene in the book, and would have been fun to film/watch. Wonder if they cut it for time/special effects budget?


I have a feeling they are downplaying the magic a bit on the show. Not sure why but I just get that feeling. When we aren't looking at dragons or birthing a big black shadow thing, there is little that cannot be explained without magic. Even the undead north of the wall are almost non-magical.

I have no problem with that. It makes the series a bit more grounded. More adventure and less Lord of the Rings.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

netringer said:


> Didn't Mace's wilding army with Jon Snow mention boating around the wall? I think the sea is a thousand miles away.


Also, Osha said she came from north of the wall via a boat.

Sometimes I don't think people actually watch the show. Especially when something like this is already addressed.


----------



## PotentiallyCoherent (Jul 25, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I know GRRM has experience in TV writing. But he seems to think Benioff and Weiss are going to be able to film every minute story in books 4 and 5 and that will buy him enough time to finish books 6 and 7. I don't think he realizes that in order to make the show palatable for average viewers who haven't read the books, most of that material will need to be cut and thus those two books would take only 2-3 seasons of TV.
> 
> In other words, I think we're saying the same thing.
> 
> That shot we see of Bran and Hodor walking down the tunnel into the bright light is them walking toward the opening in the North side of the wall. If the opening is that big and lets in that much light, then it really can't be all that secret. But I already explained above why it doesn't really matter and was just a necessity for TV.


I'm pretty sure that you have the idea in your head that he cares. I'm not so sure that he does. The HBO money is already in the coffers, along with that from the increased book sales.

I'm pretty sure that he's sitting back, licking the leftover broth, beer, and other stuff from his beer.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

tlc said:


> It occurs to me that Tywin is not teaching Joffrey anything to make him a better king. He's just working around him. No one is educating Joffrey -- he wouldn't stand for a teacher unless Tywin forced him.


Didn't they have some scenes in season 1 where Cercei talked strategy and how to be a king with Joffrey. Of course, she's not the best source, but I think she tried. Tywin probably wasn't welcome too much when Robert was still alive and Joffrey was little.



DevdogAZ said:


> Thanks for that. Very interesting. So that means that Bran and Hodor won't be able to use that gate to get back across the Wall, if they eventually find the three-eyed raven and then need to come back.
> 
> .


I don't really see them coming back, but maybe they could find Uncle Benjen or some other long lost Crow to escort them. Or Bran could warg into a raven and come over and let them know to come let him in.



PotentiallyCoherent said:


> I'm pretty sure that he's sitting back, licking the leftover broth, beer, and other stuff from his beer.


Somebody needs to kidnap this guy and trade him beer and food for pages.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Thinking about it now, who was preparing Jeoffrey to be a king?

I believe in this world and the class level Jeoffrey lives in, the jobs of raising the children go to the mother, and the maester acts as a teacher of sorts, and when they get older they spend a lot of time with the (if a boy) master of arms or (if a girl) the septa.

At Winterfell Maester Luwin was seen spending a lot of time with Bran and Rickon, and Jaime has said his father Tywin made him spend a lot of time with the maesters learning all those fancy words.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TonyD79 said:


> I have a feeling they are downplaying the magic a bit on the show.


The magic is kept low key in the books as well. I don't think they are doing it significantly differently on the show.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Joffrey is the Lannister's only legitimate claim to the throne. I think that unless/until there is another Lannister who could have a claim, then Tywin will suffer through with Joffrey. Maybe that's why Tywin is so adamant that Tyrion hurry and get Sansa preggers. Maybe then there would be a legitimate way to get rid of Joffrey and still have a Lannister be able to make a claim to the throne.





LordKronos said:


> If Joffrey is considered to be a legitimate Lannister claim to the thrown, then in Joffrey's....ummm...."absense", the legitimate Lannister claim would be Joffrey's eldest son (if he can get it up for something other than murder long enough to have one), followed by Tommen (Cersei's youngest son). In either case, I think the case to be made would be that Tywin (or whoever he chooses, if he doesn't want the position) would serve as protector of the realm until the new king came of age.


Tywin strikes me as a master long-term planner.

And if he's not bothering to train J, especially about war when they're in one, then *J must not be his intended king in the end*. He may consider J hopeless or have some other plan. It doesn't keep the family in charge to leave an idiot-J on the throne after Tywin's death. (And some other Lannisters should be smart enough to realize this.)

If Joffrey's or Tyrion's future son or Tommen is his intended, he needs backup if he's not alive long enough to run things, train and protect him. I guess Tyrion could do that as a protector. Or he's got _something else_ in mind that we haven't figured out.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

tlc said:


> Tywin strikes me as a master long-term planner.


That may be, but Tywin also has some serious mental blocks, as demonstrated by how he thinks about Tyrion. Clearly he is not rational and practical about all things family related.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

robojerk said:


> Thinking about it now, who was preparing Jeoffrey to be a king?


That's one of the big problems. No one was teaching Joffrey to be king. Robert basically hated being king, and wasn't too fond of being a father either. Everyone else in the kid's life let him get away with anything he wanted.

Now, when someone like Tywin or Tyrion stands up to him, he throws a tantrum.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Considering that Tywin is so busy planning the war that he doesn't even have time to leave the tower for meetings and makes everyone come to him, I doubt he has much time for teaching Joffrey (ignoring the fact that Joffrey is pretty much unteachable at this point).


IMO, moving the council meeting to the Tower had nothing to do with time. It was about POWER. The council meets close to the King's rooms. Tywin moved the meeting place next to his.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Everyone just keep in mind that the only Lannister offspring with any claim to the throne are those through the Baratheon line. In other words, a child of Sansa and Tyrion would have no claim to the Iron throne. A child of Sansa and Tyrion would only give the Lannisters a legitimate heir to the North.

That means for the moment Joffrey --->Tommen ---> future sons of Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella---->Stannis.


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> Everyone just keep in mind that the only Lannister offspring with any claim to the throne are those through the Baratheon line. In other words, a child of Sansa and Tyrion would have no claim to the Iron throne. A child of Sansa and Tyrion would only give the Lannisters a legitimate heir to the North.
> 
> That means for the moment Joffrey --->Tommen ---> future sons of Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella---->Stannis.


Provided you believe (or pretend to believe) that Joffrey, Tommen & Myrcella are Baratheons, not the little inbred bastards that they are.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Honora said:


> Provided you believe (or pretend to believe) that Joffrey, Tommen & Myrcella are Baratheons, not the little inbred bastards that they are.


I think it's still commonly thought that Joffrey & his siblings are Baratheons, despite rumors to the contrary.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Everyone just keep in mind that the only Lannister offspring with any claim to the throne are those through the Baratheon line.


And the Baratheon claim to the throne is due to Robert and his buddies kicking butt of the previous king. Whatta system.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> And the Baratheon claim to the throne is due to Robert and his buddies kicking butt of the previous king. Whatta system.


It's the system that has been going on in real life since the dawn of man!


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

netringer said:


> And the Baratheon claim to the throne is due to Robert and his buddies kicking butt of the previous king. Whatta system.


Actually there is a little more to it than that.

The Baratheon house is an offshoot of the Targaryans. So there is a royal blood link.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> That may be, but Tywin also has some serious mental blocks, as demonstrated by how he thinks about Tyrion. Clearly he is not rational and practical about all things family related.


I did notice one thing in the finale, Tyrion seemed to be the one that Tywin wanted to gloat to over the death of Robb. I got the feeling that Tywin knew that Tyrion was the only one shrewd enough to fully appreciate it. I think there is some hidden respect between them.


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

smbaker said:


> I did notice one thing in the finale, Tyrion seemed to be the one that Tywin wanted to gloat to over the death of Robb. I got the feeling that Tywin knew that Tyrion was the only one shrewd enough to fully appreciate it. I think there is some hidden respect between them.


It must be _very_ hidden. I think the way Tywin treats Tyrion is abominable. He's awful to everyone, but Tyrion definitely gets the worst treatment.

I wish someone would off Joffrey (sp?) already. He's not even fun to hate. He's just annoying. Every time he's on screen I want to FF.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Tywin despises Tyrion because Tyrion killed Tywin's wife. However, Tywin recognizes that Tyrion is the kid that inherited his brains.

Jaime is (was) a good knight, and is Tywin's eldest son, but he's not terribly bright.

Cersei is not as shrewd or as smart as she thinks she is. And she's a chick.

Tyrion has Tywin's brains.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

nirisahn said:


> It must be _very_ hidden. I think the way Tywin treats Tyrion is abominable. He's awful to everyone, but Tyrion definitely gets the worst treatment.
> 
> I wish someone would off Joffrey (sp?) already. He's not even fun to hate. He's just annoying. Every time he's on screen I want to FF.


I thought he was a lot of fun in the small council scene. I was laughing out loud at his glee and and then his reactions to Tywin.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

smbaker said:


> I did notice one thing in the finale, Tyrion seemed to be the one that Tywin wanted to gloat to over the death of Robb. I got the feeling that Tywin knew that Tyrion was the only one shrewd enough to fully appreciate it. I think there is some hidden respect between them.


I'm not understanding your point here. You think Tywin thought that Tyrion would appreciate that Robb was dead? I think if Tyrion had his way, he'd gladly have granted Robb title of King in the North in order to end the war and return things to the carefree life he lived before. Tyrion may appreciate that Robb's death is a major strategic win for the Lannisters, but I don't think he would be happy about it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jehma said:


> I thought he was a lot of fun in the small council scene. I was laughing out loud at his glee and and then his reactions to Tywin.


He really is just a one-note character, though. The cowardly psychopath. He's gotten to the point where he either needs to undergo some personal growth, or die a horrible death.

(Or maybe undergo some personal growth, become a likable person...and THEN die a horrible death! Arya can become queen, not notice that he's become a good person, and have his head chopped off!)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He really is just a one-note character, though. The cowardly psychopath. He's gotten to the point where he either needs to undergo some personal growth, or die a horrible death.
> 
> (Or maybe undergo some personal growth, become a likable person...and THEN die a horrible death! Arya can become queen, not notice that he's become a good person, and have his head chopped off!)


If how the show has gone so far is any indication, Arya will become queen by marrying Joffrey!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> If how the show has gone so far is any indication, Arya will become queen by marrying Joffrey!


And then killing him! Horribly!

Or she'll fall in love with him, marry him, and then Zombie Ned Stark will chop off his head!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

smbaker said:


> I did notice one thing in the finale, Tyrion seemed to be the one that Tywin wanted to gloat to over the death of Robb. I got the feeling that Tywin knew that Tyrion was the only one shrewd enough to fully appreciate it. I think there is some hidden respect between them.


I didn't see that at all. Tywin simply kept him around to talk to him about those babies he's supposed to be working on. Before he could, Tyrion said something, and everything Tywin said was just a response to each thing Tyrion said. If anything, I'd say they were at odds with each other on every point discussed.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

In the final scene of the saga, Joffrey should be taking a bath in the dragons' blood while feasting on Dany's boiled head.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> In the final scene of the saga, Joffrey should be taking a bath in the dragons' blood while feasting on Dany's boiled head.


Spolier!


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I think Tywin is only concerned with building the "Lannister Legacy" He's got Joffrey on the Iron Throne, with the Male Starks out of the way he can get Tirion/Sansa's kid as ruler of the North, and with Cersei/Loras offspring he gets a (sort of) Lannister as ruler of Riverrun. Lannisters ruling everywhere!

Or as "The Boss" wrote:
Poor man wanna be rich
Rich man wanna be king
and a king ain't satisfied until he rules everything


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Funny:

_*Some guy asked his dad to try and name all of the characters on Game of Thrones. Here's what he came up with:*_

http://www.happyplace.com/24473/some-guys-dad-tries-to-name-all-of-the-game-of-thrones-characters


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tiassa said:


> and with Cersei/Loras offspring he gets a (sort of) Lannister as ruler of Riverrun


I think you mean Highgarden. Riverrun is currently in Tully control, though it has been promised to Lord Frey.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

astrohip said:


> Funny:
> 
> _*Some guy asked his dad to try and name all of the characters on Game of Thrones. Here's what he came up with:*_
> 
> http://www.happyplace.com/24473/some-guys-dad-tries-to-name-all-of-the-game-of-thrones-characters


That is hilarious. Some of the names he got wrong are awesome.

James Stark? Nedder. Lord Buccaneer.

Thug!


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

Where the heck did he come up with James Stark?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Tracy said:


> Where the heck did he come up with James Stark?


He's probably just finding the Bran scenes about as interesting as I do.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> I didn't see that at all. Tywin simply kept him around to talk to him about those babies he's supposed to be working on. Before he could, Tyrion said something, and everything Tywin said was just a response to each thing Tyrion said. If anything, I'd say they were at odds with each other on every point discussed.


I think Tywin is constantly measuring, assessing, and re-assessing every person he comes in contact with; Tyrion included. Every reaction and every word is evaluated and filed away. It's who he is.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Tyrion may appreciate that Robb's death is a major strategic win for the Lannisters, but I don't think he would be happy about it.


This was my point. I'll have to re-watch again, but it felt to me like Tywin was gloating with pride over what he had accomplished. Even if Tyrion doesn't approve, he can still appreciate the strategic nature.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I think Tywin is constantly measuring, assessing, and re-assessing every person he comes in contact with; Tyrion included. Every reaction and every word is evaluated and filed away. It's who he is.


But he also filters everything that comes in through his very biased mind. Nothing Tyrion can do is ever going to make his father be proud of him.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> That is hilarious. Some of the names he got wrong are awesome.
> 
> James Stark? Nedder. Lord Buccaneer.
> 
> Thug!


These were a couple of my favorites...


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I think Tywin's stregnth is he's good judge of people, especially his family. He know the strengths and weaknesses of all the Lannisters. He know that Jamie is not that bright, but he's a good soldier. He knows Ceirce's strength is that she can make more Lannisters. He knows Tyrion can take on things that take some actual thinking to get done, but he also knows he's very impulsive, so it's probably best not to keep him at one thing too long. He knows Joeffrey is pretty useless, and his only strength is that he's a Baratheon, by name at least, and that he can steamroll the kid into doing what he wants. I do think there will come a time when Tywin has no use for Joeffry and he'll figure out an accident similar to what happened to King Robert.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jakerock said:


> But he also filters everything that comes in through his very biased mind. Nothing Tyrion can do is ever going to make his father be proud of him.


I should have introduced him to my mom, same issue


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> I should have introduced him to my mom, same issue


If she could just see past his height!


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

astrohip said:


> Funny:
> 
> Some guy asked his dad to try and name all of the characters on Game of Thrones. Here's what he came up with:
> 
> http://www.happyplace.com/24473/some-guys-dad-tries-to-name-all-of-the-game-of-thrones-characters


I loved that! I probably couldn't do all that much better. A number of the characters, whose names I'm pretty sure I do know, I nevertheless blanked out on as soon as I saw his attempts, and now I can't recall the correct names.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Tracy said:


> Where the heck did he come up with James Stark?


I half expected him to say Tony.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

JYoung said:


> I half expected him to say Tony.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

jakerock said:


> But he also filters everything that comes in through his very biased mind. Nothing Tyrion can do is ever going to make his father be proud of him.


No, not proud. But I got that he recognizes that Tyrion is smart. And it pisses him off even more because he is physically flawed and his birth killed his mother.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Loved that Happy Place thing with the names. It really highlights what a ridiculous number of relatively prominent characters there are in this show. And reminds me that we haven't seen Littlefinger for a really long time.

And why bother casting Ciaran Hinds as Mance Rayder if he's only going to get 4 minutes of screentime the entire season.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> No, not proud. But I got that he recognizes that Tyrion is smart. And it pisses him off even more because he is physically flawed and his birth killed his mother.


Yeah, I think it pissed him off that he had to admit Tyrion was capable when he needed somebody to take over at King's Landing. But now that he is there himself, he has no intention whatsoever of letting Tyrion help in any way (except marrying and impregnating a Stark girl, which he probably figures Tyrion is qualified for because of his extensive experience in whoring and debauchery, not because of any positive qualities he might posses).

So his recognition of Tyrion's intelligence was due to momentary desperation, not any kind of level-headed analysis of his son's qualities.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> And why bother casting Ciaran Hinds as Mance Rayder if he's only going to get 4 minutes of screentime the entire season.


Maybe Mance Rayder's storyline isn't over yet.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jakerock said:


> If she could just see past his height!


LOL I meant Tywin, nothing I did was ever good enough for her so she and Tywin would have made a good pair.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> I think Tywin's ... ... ... figure out an accident similar to what happened to King Robert.


I thought Robert's death was completely by accident (a wile bore he was hunting fought back).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Maybe Mance Rayder's storyline isn't over yet.


Oh, I'm certain that his story isn't done yet and that we'll see him again. That was clear from the fact that people were so excited to see his character and see who played him. It just seems strange that they made such a big deal about his casting before the season started and then we barely saw him at all the whole season.

It was my understanding that people were excited about him because he is prominent in Book 3. Is that not correct? I understand the show only got through about 2/3 of Book 3, so maybe he'll play a more prominent role at the beginning of next season. Or did the show make him into a less prominent character than he was in the books up to this point?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> It was my understanding that people were excited about him because he is prominent in Book 3. Is that not correct? I understand the show only got through about 2/3 of Book 3, so maybe he'll play a more prominent role at the beginning of next season. Or did the show make him into a less prominent character than he was in the books up to this point?


You can't draw an exact parallel to the timeline of the book(s) and where the show is at, mainly because the different POV characters of the book sometimes tell the story in not-so-chronological order. Plus, we've seen some elements of Book 4 already.

But there are several very important aspects of the Book 3 that we have not yet seen. I will say this: of the 4 or 5 most memorable parts of Book 3, only 1 (the Red Wedding) was shown in S3 (maybe 2 if people count Jaime's dismemberment). There is a lot of major, major drama left.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robojerk said:


> I thought Robert's death was completely by accident (a wile bore he was hunting fought back).


There was Cersei's cousin/boyfriend, also Robert's squire, who under her instructions kept him well-lubricated during the hunt. We don't know how long he was fulfilling that role, but chasing vicious animals through the forest on horseback at breakneck speed is dangerous even when you're not drunk out of your mind. The odds were, as they say, ever not in his favor.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There was Cersei's cousin/boyfriend, also Robert's squire, who under her instructions kept him well-lubricated during the hunt. We don't know how long he was fulfilling that role, but chasing vicious animals through the forest on horseback at breakneck speed is dangerous even when you're not drunk out of your mind. The odds were, as they say, ever not in his favor.


True, but it's not like anyone was forcing the wine down Robert's throat. He chose to be "well-lubricated" all the time, Cersai was just hoping one day an accident would happen.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robojerk said:


> True, but it's not like anyone was forcing the wine down Robert's throat. He chose to be "well-lubricated" all the time, Cersai was just hoping one day an accident would happen.


Yes, but they made enough of a deal of letting us know that the boy was specifically tasked with keeping him drunk during his dangerous activity in which he fell from his horse and died, that we may assume that there is a correlation. 

As I say, she was working to improve her odds. And we don't know how long she had been doing such things, but in this case it paid off. (Being Robert's squire, I wonder if Boy-Toy may also have made sure that his equipment was not up to full standards, e.g., his saddle...)

They wouldn't have wasted valuable screen time on introducing that character if there wasn't meant to be a pay-off. Robert's death is the pay-off.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There was Cersei's cousin/boyfriend, also Robert's squire, who under her instructions kept him well-lubricated during the hunt. We don't know how long he was fulfilling that role, but chasing vicious animals through the forest on horseback at breakneck speed is dangerous even when you're not drunk out of your mind. The odds were, as they say, ever not in his favor.


I vaguely recall it was more then well lubricated. I thought Lancel had "super-charged" his wineskin with some "herb" from Pycelle.

Wasn't this almost directly insinuated? Or am I dreaming (which I will blame on super-charged herbs & spices).


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> (Being Robert's squire, I wonder if Boy-Toy may also have made sure that his equipment was not up to full standards...


Makes for an interesting quote when taken out of context...


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

astrohip said:


> I vaguely recall it was more then well lubricated. I thought Lancel had "super-charged" his wineskin with some "herb" from Pycelle.
> 
> Wasn't this almost directly insinuated?


Yes, I remember it that way, also.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

astrohip said:


> I vaguely recall it was more then well lubricated. I thought Lancel had "super-charged" his wineskin with some "herb" from Pycelle.
> 
> Wasn't this almost directly insinuated? Or am I dreaming (which I will blame on super-charged herbs & spices).


It was a more potent wine


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

The Wiki says it wine that was 3 times more potent.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

So I guess I'm just as confused as this guy's dad:



















The dad identifies two different pictures as the blacksmith (Gendry). I can't tell which one is Gendry and I have no idea who the other one is.

Edit: Nevermind. One of them is Podrick. But I still don't know which is which.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Edit: Nevermind. One of them is Podrick. But I still don't know which is which.


You can use the backgrounds as a guide. Gendry is the one who looks like he's out in the wilderness somewhere and Pod is somewhere with curtains.

I doubt Gendry has ever been somewhere with curtains in his entire life.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

getbak said:


> You can use the backgrounds as a guide. Gendry is the one who looks like he's out in the wilderness somewhere and Pod is somewhere with curtains.
> 
> I doubt Gendry has ever been somewhere with curtains in his entire life.


Better. "Dad" corrected himself. Said first one was blacksmith kid then saw the second and realized he was wrong on the first one. He was right the second time.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I always have to remind myself that Gendry is not Podrick, and vice versa.

Also, that hooker is not sexy, IMO. I'm actually surprised they didn't cast a more attractive actress for that role.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

getbak said:


> I doubt Gendry has ever been somewhere with curtains in his entire life.


Perhaps only when being born...


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

For those who are both Game of Thrones and Arrested Development fans.

http://arrestedwesteros.com/


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Also, that hooker is not sexy, IMO. I'm actually surprised they didn't cast a more attractive actress for that role.


Yeah, that's probably the single worst casting job. In the books she is uncommonly beautiful. That actress? Not so much.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I vaguely recall it was more then well lubricated. I thought Lancel had "super-charged" his wineskin with some "herb" from Pycelle.
> 
> Wasn't this almost directly insinuated? Or am I dreaming (which I will blame on super-charged herbs & spices).





cherry ghost said:


> It was a more potent wine





DreadPirateRob said:


> The Wiki says it wine that was 3 times more potent.


I also remember it being a more potent wine (spoilerizing the rest because I'm not sure if I remember this from the show or the book)


Spoiler



*and* I also seem to remember in Cersei telling someone (Ned? When he confronted her?) that if she hadn't gotten Robert killed that time, she would have eventually. Maybe it wasn't when talking to Ned, but does anyone else remember something like this?

That is putting it in the most simplistic way, but it seems to me that she said something that made it perfectly clear she was most definitely trying to kill him.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

astrohip said:


> I vaguely recall it was more then well lubricated. I thought Lancel had "super-charged" his wineskin with some "herb" from Pycelle.
> 
> Wasn't this almost directly insinuated? Or am I dreaming (which I will blame on super-charged herbs & spices).


In general, I agree that this was the tool used. But another would have been used had this one not worked. Ned told her he would tell Robert about her and Jaime as soon as he came back from the hunt.

It is not a coincidence that Robert came back mostly dead. he was never coming back.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yes, but they made enough of a deal of letting us know that the boy was specifically tasked with keeping him drunk during his dangerous activity in which *he fell from his horse* and died, that we may assume that there is a correlation.


What horse? They were shown hunting on foot, with no horses behind them. I don't remember any mention of horses either.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> What horse? They were shown hunting on foot, with no horses behind them. I don't remember any mention of horses either.


Well, that's how you hunt boars (humans can't keep up with them on foot), but I'm probably conflating him with somebody who died like that in real life (drunken hunting accidents were not terribly unusual in the Middle Ages...my favorite was the French heir to the throne who died when he was drunkenly hunting a woman through the streets of Paris on horseback, forgot to duck, whacked his head on a doorway, and fell to his death).


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I vaguely recall it was more then well lubricated. I thought Lancel had "super-charged" his wineskin with some "herb" from Pycelle.
> 
> Wasn't this almost directly insinuated? Or am I dreaming (which I will blame on super-charged herbs & spices).


I don't remember any mention of that. Possibly in the books (which I haven't read), but not the show. The closest there was to any sort of insinuation was a discussion about who gave him the wine, saying it was the lannister boy.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, that's how you hunt boars (humans can't keep up with them on foot), but I'm probably conflating him with somebody who died like that in real life (drunken hunting accidents were not terribly unusual in the Middle Ages...my favorite was the French heir to the throne who died when he was drunkenly hunting a woman through the streets of Paris on horseback, forgot to duck, whacked his head on a doorway, and fell to his death).


Boar hunting most certainly can be done on foot. It is usually accomplished by trapping the boar. You use multiple people and close in on it from all sides, having the people on the other side drive it towards you. Or you all force it towards a cliff or something and corner it.

And like I said, when they showed them hunting, they were on foot, walking through the woods, without any horses following them.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Boar hunting most certainly can be done on foot. It is usually accomplished by trapping the boar. You use multiple people and close in on it from all sides, having the people on the other side drive it towards you. Or you all force it towards a cliff or something and corner it.
> 
> And like I said, when they showed them hunting, they were on foot, walking through the woods, without any horses following them.


Being that Robert got gored by the boar he had to be on the ground, yes?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I vaguely recall him arriving back, having been gored, on his horse. So he was on foot while hunting, and carried back once injured, maybe?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

John Locke hunted boar on the island all the time. 

Greg


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

danterner said:


> I vaguely recall him arriving back, having been gored, on his horse. So he was on foot while hunting, and carried back once injured, maybe?


Not in the show. We never actually see Robert arrive. First we see is Renly running in the hallways of Kings Landing to find Ned to tell him about it.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

This thread has taken a boaring sidetrack.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Don't be such a pig about it.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I sow what you did there.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> I don't remember any mention of that. Possibly in the books (which I haven't read), but not the show. The closest there was to any sort of insinuation was a discussion about who gave him the wine, saying it was the lannister boy.


Didn't Tyrion use this to blackmail the Lannister Boy-Lancel? Or was it just that he was sleeping with Cercei?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> Didn't Tyrion use this to blackmail the Lannister Boy-Lancel? Or was it just that he was sleeping with Cercei?


Just for banging her.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I had a random thought from way back in season 1.

King Robert got the word that Dany Targareon was with the Dothraki and with child, etc., and made to decision to have her killed. 

How did he know that her brother, who was the heir, was given the golden shower?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> I had a random thought from way back in season 1.
> 
> King Robert got the word that Dany Targareon was with the Dothraki and with child, etc., and made to decision to have her killed.
> 
> How did he know that her brother, who was the heir, was given the golden shower?


He wanted them all killed, even before the child. Back when he won the Iron Thrown, he had all of the Targaryen family killed, but the 2 kids escaped oversees. As soon as he heard about them over there, he wanted them both killed. Then he found out she was pregnant, and it was like "oh crap, see...they're multiplying", so he wanted all 3 of them killed.

And the whole idea was, while Viserys was supposed to be king, he was going to accomplish it via the Dothraki (the trade was Dany as a wife in exchange for a Dothraki army). The Dothraki were what they really feared, not Viserys or Dany. The Dothraki were the brutal warriors that were the problem, but previously they were no concern because they had no interest in coming to Westeros (and they feared the water). Now that Viserys had convinced the Dothraki to go to Westeros (or so Robert thought), the Dothraki were an actual threat. And now that Dany was having a kid, it would be a combo Dothraki/Targaryen child leading the army (once he was old enough). It was just all getting worse and worse. He just wanted them all dead before it got even worse.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> He wanted them all killed, even before the child. Back when he won the Iron Thrown, he had all of the Targaryen family killed, but the 2 kids escaped oversees. As soon as he heard about them over there, he wanted them both killed. Then he found out she was pregnant, and it was like "oh crap, see...they're multiplying", so he wanted all 3 of them killed.
> 
> And the whole idea was, while Viserys was supposed to be king, he was going to accomplish it via the Dothraki (the trade was Dany as a wife in exchange for a Dothraki army). The Dothraki were what they really feared, not Viserys or Dany. The Dothraki were the brutal warriors that were the problem, but previously they were no concern because they had no interest in coming to Westeros (and they feared the water). Now that Viserys had convinced the Dothraki to go to Westeros (or so Robert thought), the Dothraki were an actual threat. And now that Dany was having a kid, it would be a combo Dothraki/Targaryen child leading the army (once he was old enough). It was just all getting worse and worse. He just wanted them all dead before it got even worse.


OK, but what I'm asking is how they got the word that Viserys was dead. I gather that their "host" was sending word back to Varys, but how would he know?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

netringer said:


> OK, but what I'm asking is how they got the word that Viserys was dead. I gather that their "host" was sending word back to Varys, but how would he know?


I was under the impression that Jorah was doing the reporting until he started to believe in Dany.

I think there was a reference in conversation a few weeks ago.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> OK, but what I'm asking is how they got the word that Viserys was dead. I gather that their "host" was sending word back to Varys, but how would he know?


Jorah was the one sending back information (he told Illyrio in Pentos, who then told Varys), so if Robert found out, it was from him. But what I'm getting at is that at no time did we ever see (to my recollection) Robert acknowledging the fact that Viserys was dead. The only scene I recall Robert mentioning any of the Targaryens after Viserys dies was when Robert was on his death bed and told Ned to abort that plan (which Varys said was already too late).

Edit: I just checked, and I'm correct. In episode 6, Robert has already left to go hunting (Ned is running things for him). At the end of the episode, Viserys dies.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I couldn't look away, hard as I tried:

Animals "singing" the Game of Thrones theme:

http://laughingsquid.com/a-dog-singing-the-game-of-thrones-theme-song/

They are so talented!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

danterner said:


> Animals "singing" the Game of Thrones theme:


Actors singing "singing" the Game of Thrones theme.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/19/game-of-thrones-cast-sings-theme-song_n_2910911.html

You can't the actors. They're human beings!
--Oh yeah? Have you ever eaten with one?


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