# Battlestar Galactica 4-18-08 *Spoilers*



## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Umm
Woah

right out the airlock.
"we aren't evil" riiiiiight.
And Weapons locker 1701D was a very nice touch.
BSG is really good this season.


----------



## sackman (Sep 3, 2005)

That's one cold-blooded skin job there. I guess since it's the last season, the gloves are beyond off.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Stan: OMIGOD, They Killed Cally!
Kyle: YOU BASTARDS!!!! 

This was a hard episode- that character was one of my favs since the mini-series. And although it was a strong performance and dramatic exit... I'm still more than a little pissed.

Not sure if I like the Cylon Civil War angle...


----------



## jones07 (Jan 30, 2001)

Starbuck's a skin job.. At least that's what helo is thinking


----------



## jones07 (Jan 30, 2001)

sackman said:


> That's one cold-blooded skin job


Not really, Cold blooded would have been flushing the kid also.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

You know, I'm pretty disappointed with this season so far. It just all feels so tacked on. Im pretty sure the new revelations will prove to be in contradiction with the already formed timeline. 

Also - has anyone wondered how the XO could possibly be a human Cylon considering he was involved in the war with the original Cylons? How will that be explained? Maybe they are not Cylons after all?


----------



## testify4 (Sep 9, 2001)

Gunnyman said:


> And Weapons locker 1701D was a very nice touch.


I liked the tip o' the hat, too!

I have to mirror those sentiments: Whoa. The last season is making for one hell of an experience. I knew what was going on the second Tory showed up, and it was gripping waiting for it to happen. The basestar-on-basestar violence was something else, and you now need to use the magic word with Centurions!


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Spaced her, she frakkin SPACED her!

The whole situation's one big clusterfrak to be sure.

Mmm, 1701D.

Greg


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jones07 said:


> Starbuck's a skin job.. At least that's what helo is thinking


you mean Anders?

no way she would kill the kid...he's a hybrid...very valuable...

this ep sucked in every way...not a single second was interesting...everything is contrived...the one good thing about BSG was that people behaved in a "believable" way...not any more...I feel like I'm watching a day time soap opera...all we need now is for Lee to start having an affair with the president or something


----------



## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

mostman said:


> Also - has anyone wondered how the XO could possibly be a human Cylon considering he was involved in the war with the original Cylons? How will that be explained? Maybe they are not Cylons after all?


I've speculated about that. That Chief, Tigh, and maybe Anders aren't Cylons and that Tory somehow engineered them hearing the "music" and that she is manipulating them.

But that would mean that we still have four skin jobs to identify, instead of one, and I'm not crazy about that idea.


----------



## jones07 (Jan 30, 2001)

Anubys said:


> you mean Anders?


Yes, Sorry.......I misspoke


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

sackman said:


> That's one cold-blooded skin job there. I guess since it's the last season, the gloves are beyond off.


It was a matter of survival. Callie knew the secret. In that same situation, I'm sure Tigh would have done the exact same thing.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

JoeyJoJo said:


> It was a matter of survival. Callie knew the secret. In that same situation, I'm sure Tigh would have done the exact same thing.


Tigh wouldn't have cared about the kid, either. I don't think Tigh cares about anyone. 

Greg


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

Gunnyman said:


> Weapons locker 1701D was a very nice touch.


Can one of you explain the reference?

I'm not really enjoying crazy Starbuck - she's always been psycho - but in a good way - crazy Starbuck is just annoying...

and speaking of annoying - OMG this episode had so much crying baby in it I was getting a headache.

I just didn't buy that Callie would have handed the baby over to her after learning she was a Cyclon - seemed like THEEEEE most out of character moment...


----------



## nedthelab (Oct 4, 2002)

Very much a geek reference - NCC-1701 are the call letters for the USS enterprise - star trek

1701D is from next generation I beleive - Ok I fit the bill


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

wow you guys are sci-fi geeks


----------



## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

nedthelab said:


> Very much a geek reference - NCC-1701 are the call letters for the USS enterprise - star trek
> 
> 1701D is from next generation I beleive - Ok I fit the bill


And Ronald D. Moore ( BSG creator) wrote many Star Trek Next Generation episodes. As well as Exec Producer on DS9.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

JoeyJoJo said:


> It was a matter of survival. Callie knew the secret. In that same situation, I'm sure Tigh would have done the exact same thing.


+1

Callie would absolutely have blown the whistle on them.

Cold blooded as all frak, but what choice did she really have.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> +1
> 
> Callie would absolutely have blown the whistle on them.


But why didn't she? If you see 3 Spylons talking, wouldn't the first thing you do be to go straight to the Admiral?


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Anubys said:


> you mean Anders?
> 
> no way she would kill the kid...he's a hybrid...very valuable...
> 
> this ep sucked in every way...not a single second was interesting...everything is contrived...the one good thing about BSG was that people behaved in a "believable" way...not any more...I feel like I'm watching a day time soap opera...all we need now is for Lee to start having an affair with the president or something


I disagree that "not a single second was interesting", but yes it really sucked especially compared to last week.

(1) The Adama Ros scene at the beginning was so pretentious.

(2) And the scenes on Kara's garbage skow dragged on to little point. What a total mean, sniveling witch with a B. The writers have ruined a once vibrant and interesting character. These scenes were total soap opera filler.

(3) The Lee Adama, Junior Politico scenes are a total snore. The supposed analogies to today's politics are so heavy handed and ludicrous, not insightful. Lee takes himself and his new position so seriously. Frak 'im.

(4) Finally, ANY scene with Callie in it really sucks, with the exception of finally seeing THAT whiney self-pitying source of excess CO2 flushed out the airlock as she has so sorely deserved since day one.

The Cylon civil war continues to be amusing to me but not as fresh as when first introduced. Unavoidable. Unlike most I'm not a fan of Dean Stockwell and I don't like his character, but any Six or Boomer are always watchable. Can't wait until the un-boxing.

Only the True Believers continue to deny that Moore et. al. are writing episode to episode for soap opera 'shock' entertainment value, any insightfull storyline that ties together disparate threads and themes be damned.


----------



## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> But why didn't she? If you see 3 Spylons talking, wouldn't the first thing you do be to go straight to the Admiral?


Well she's got a lot going on in her head. 
1) she married a Cylon
2) she has a half Cylon baby
3) She's on some weird combo of meds that seem to really mess up her head.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I hate to use the "S" word about a show that has been so good for so long, but ... SHARK! The writers have completely shredded their continuity (and credibility) by turning some of the show's most hard-core anti-toasters into secret skin jobs.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

mostman said:


> You know, I'm pretty disappointed with this season so far. It just all feels so tacked on. Im pretty sure the new revelations will prove to be in contradiction with the already formed timeline.
> 
> Also - has anyone wondered how the XO could possibly be a human Cylon considering he was involved in the war with the original Cylons? How will that be explained? Maybe they are not Cylons after all?


The entire business about who the final 5 are was made up just recently according to Moore. Picked for shock value only. And it shows. The whole business about spines glowing when fraking would have given these folks away. Never mind the aging business. It is abundantly clear that what observant viewers thought were clues and threads in the 1st seasons are just dead ends. They were clever entertainment tricks which the writers did not think through. Slackers.

Whoa! Post #666. Appropriate!


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> But why didn't she? If you see 3 Spylons talking, wouldn't the first thing you do be to go straight to the Admiral?


Callie was going to commit suicide, and take the baby with her.

Had Tory saved them both, and prevented Callie's suicide, Callie would surely have gone to the Admiral.

She could have simply left Callie to kill both herself and the baby. Instead, she saved the baby. That's the less cold blooded of the two realistic options she had.


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

IndyJones1023 said:


> But why didn't she? If you see 3 Spylons talking, wouldn't the first thing you do be to go straight to the Admiral?


+1
That would have been a better plot line.


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

I'm really glad this is the last season. I'm mainly watching just to see where the train wreck ends. The episode had a few good moments, but I figure those moments won't carry over in any way, so the enjoyment is short lived. A sad, sad limp to the finish for a show that should have been great.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

appleye1 said:


> I've speculated about that. That Chief, Tigh, and maybe Anders aren't Cylons and that Tory somehow engineered them hearing the "music" and that she is manipulating them.


that can't be true...we already have seen confirmation that Anders is a spylon given his encounter with the raider...you can still hold out hope for Chief and Tigh, though!


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

A lot going on here. I think Callie did what she did because she was already messed up in the head. She probably had post partum depression and the meds she was on were messing her up even more. When they focused on her, everything was in slo-mo and things were very far away. I think that's why she didn't go straight to the admiral. I'm not sure if she planned to kill just the hybrid or herself to. I'm not even sure if she knew yet. One or both of them was definately going to die. Probably both.

I was surprised the Chief survived that beating. I was wondering if he was going to wake up on a cylon ship.

Tory just became a full fledged cyclon despite the doubts she was just expressing.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> Tory just became a full fledged cyclon despite the doubts she was just expressing.


You know, I don't see that at all. What I took from it was Chief spurned her advances, she was pissed, so she got revenge. Had nothing to do with being a spylon as much as she was just being a psycho b***h.

Greg


----------



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

How long is this season supposed to last? 10 episodes? 23? Week 1 was great, and weeks 2 and three have been a big bag of suck time filler. I knew the instant we were brought into our character's private lives that this would be a crappy episode, and it was. Just when I thought the Cylon plotline was going to get interesting by unboxing the 3s, nope, they started shooting each other. Except, must have run out of budget, cuz we didn't get to see how that worked out. Thanks, BSG, for more Suck.

I used to really love this series!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dtivouser said:


> How long is this season supposed to last?


I believe it's 2 (Razor) +10 (now) +10 (later--fall or next winter).


----------



## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

Anubys said:


> that can't be true...we already have seen confirmation that Anders is a spylon given his encounter with the raider...you can still hold out hope for Chief and Tigh, though!


Yeah, that's why I said "maybe Anders". Him not being a Cylon would be much farther fetched. But still possible given the current level of writing on this show!


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

gchance said:


> You know, I don't see that at all. What I took from it was Chief spurned her advances, she was pissed, so she got revenge. Had nothing to do with being a spylon as much as she was just being a psycho b***h.
> 
> Greg


I don't see that at all. I don't think her killing Callie had anything to do with the Chief. She saw that someone had been in the bulkheads while they were talking who now knows they are Cyclons. She was killing the one person outside of their group who knew who they were. She just didn't want to kill the hybrid, too, so she tried to talk Callie down so she could grab the kid.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I might also add that Tory's punch also proves that she's a cylon...

so we so far have "some" proof that 2 of the 4 are cylons (and yes, I do agree that we can't take that for granted with these writers!)...


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> A lot going on here. I think Callie did what she did because she was already messed up in the head. She probably had post partum depression and the meds she was on were messing her up even more. When they focused on her, everything was in slo-mo and things were very far away. I think that's why she didn't go straight to the admiral. I'm not sure if she planned to kill just the hybrid or herself to. I'm not even sure if she knew yet. One or both of them was definately going to die. Probably both.
> 
> I was surprised the Chief survived that beating. I was wondering if he was going to wake up on a cylon ship.
> 
> Tory just became a full fledged cyclon despite the doubts she was just expressing.


The meds probably exaggerated things but her world was totally destroyed. Her marriage was now a farce. The boss she looked up to was phony. Her child is half a skin job. How many women have thought this way after they found out there husband was cheating or came out of the closet.

She knows how big a deal the cyclons make about babies from the boomer situation and now shes part of it. She says to her self this is the only power I have left.

Also was she the one who shot Boomer after Boomer shot Adama?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

zalusky said:


> Also was she the one who shot Boomer after Boomer shot Adama?


yes.

one nuance that I don't think was discussed at the time about that:

she was also in love with Chief...I think she always wanted to kill Boomer...once it was clear that Boomer was a cylon AND she shot Adama, it became a no-brainer...she could kill her rival and get away with it...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I might also add that Tory's punch also proves that she's a cylon...


Which brings us back to one of my objections from back in the first season--if the Spylons were physically strong enough to do the things they do, there would have to be some biological, and thus fairly easily testable, distinction between them and humans. Even putting aside the issue of Spylon bodies being wired for fiber optics.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which brings us back to one of my objections from back in the first season--if the Spylons were physically strong enough to do the things they do, there would have to be some biological, and thus fairly easily testable, distinction between them and humans. Even putting aside the issue of Spylon bodies being wired for fiber optics.


Baltar did develop a test that would identify Spylons. He just didn't want to use it. It actually did point out Boomer before she even knew she was one.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

All they have to do is duplicate the radiation from Ragnar Anchorage and the Spylons dies. Simple.

Oh wait, the show would have ended years ago.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> Baltar did develop a test that would show identify Spylons. He just didn't want to use it. It actually did point out Boomer before she even knew she was one.


Yes, but all you would have to do is take a biopsy from their arm muscles. Baltar's test is predicated on the "fact" that there is no obvious difference between Spylon and human physiology, but if Spylons can do the things they do then there must be massive and easily-detectable differences, not something that requires 20 hours of processing time and a nuclear bomb.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yes, but all you would have to do is take a biopsy from their arm muscles. Baltar's test is predicated on the "fact" that there is no obvious difference between Spylon and human physiology, but if Spylons can do the things they do then there must be massive and easily-detectable differences, not something that requires 20 hours of processing time and a nuclear bomb.


There you go using logic!  Don't you know there is no logic in Spylon identification??


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> There you go using logic!  Don't you know there is no logic in Spylon identification??


There's no logic in BG, which is what I've been saying since around the fiber optic episode!

And I've pretty much learned to roll with it, even if it's my eyes that do most of the rolling. Ironically, back in the first and second season I was probably the most radical person on this board about the deficiencies of BG, and now so many people have come around and I have calmed down so much that I now seem to enjoy the show more than a lot of people. It's gibberish, but a lot of the time it's pretty entertaining gibberish.


----------



## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Gunnyman said:


> And Weapons locker 1701D was a very nice touch.





nedthelab said:


> Very much a geek reference - NCC-1701 are the call letters for the USS enterprise - star trek
> 
> 1701D is from next generation I beleive - Ok I fit the bill


I knew I remembered that number.
It was like remembering a phone number, but not remembering who's it was.

1701D was indeed the STNG model.

phox


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I do remember one part of this big bag of suck ep that was good: the centurian not acting until Six said "please"


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I do remember one part of this big bag of suck ep that was good: the centurian not acting until Six said "please"


I think she may have opened a can of worms that even she doesn't understand yet!


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> I think she may have opened a can of worms that even she doesn't understand yet!


Yeah, if the centurons took on the skin jobs it would be no contest.


----------



## TIVOSciolist (Oct 13, 2003)

Anubys said:


> this ep sucked in every way...not a single second was interesting...


You must have missed the scene right before the opening credits of the bra-less Callie.

Actually, I'm going to really miss her. She was one of my favorite characters.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Maybe we should create two threads for the whiners and for the people who are enjoying it. I really can't understand why the big bag of suck people bother.

There are a lot of shows I don't like so I don't watch and leave it at that.


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

zalusky said:


> Maybe we should create two threads for the whiners and for the people who are enjoying it. I really can't understand why the big bag of suck people bother.
> 
> There are a lot of shows I don't like so I don't watch and leave it at that.


Dude-I'm with you. I was blown away by this episode. The Cylon Civil War, The Airlock Scene and the cool "Away Team" Starbuck ship stuff was really cool.

The amount of nitpicking done on this show is INSANE.


----------



## Uncle Briggs (Sep 11, 2004)

zalusky said:


> Maybe we should create two threads for the whiners and for the people who are enjoying it. I really can't understand why the big bag of suck people bother.
> 
> There are a lot of shows I don't like so I don't watch and leave it at that.


I'm with you. I like the show. I just sit back and enjoy it. I don't analyze it frame by frame.


----------



## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

Uncle Briggs said:


> I'm with you. I like the show. I just sit back and enjoy it. I don't analyze it frame by frame.


Yessir. This show is still at the top of its game, IMO. There may be one or two plotlines you don't dig, but there's so much still going for it.

This episode was a little snoozy until the end, but we're only 3 into 20 here. I like seeing the growing hate b/w Lee and Prez and how Tory is embracing her new existence. And I love, love, love the Cylon civil war angle. Can't wait to see how Six and company escape this one.


----------



## jones07 (Jan 30, 2001)

zalusky said:


> Maybe we should create two threads for the whiners and for the people who are enjoying it. I really can't understand why the big bag of suck people bother.
> 
> There are a lot of shows I don't like so I don't watch and leave it at that.


+5

God help me I was thinking the same thing two days ago, but I did not have the testicles to start a "Battlestar Galactica *Spoilers* Thread" for Fans of the show. Maybe someone will for next week episode. hint hint

I look forward to BSG and this thread crapping is a becoming a downer.

ok calling non-fans of the show thread crappers is going a bit overboard. But I don't understand why they watch the show then run here and post all their dislikes....................every [email protected] week

ie: Season 2 of Jericho just turned me off, so I stopped watching and posting about it.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

The episode bored me to tears, that being said, it did redeem itself with the death of 
Callie. I have wanted her dead since the first moment her perpetually weeping face appeared on screen. Thank the gods she is finally dead! "So say we all!!!"


----------



## ThePennyDropped (Jul 5, 2006)

Figaro said:


> The episode bored me to tears, that being said, it did redeem itself with the death of
> Callie. I have wanted her dead since the first moment her perpetually weeping face appeared on screen. Thank the gods she is finally dead! "So say we all!!!"


Unless the next episode has her waking up in a goo bath... 

--Debbie


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Figaro said:


> The episode bored me to tears, that being said, it did redeem itself with the death of
> Callie. I have wanted her dead since the first moment her perpetually weeping face appeared on screen. Thank the gods she is finally dead! "So say we all!!!"


What's always interesting is the extreme divergence of feelings regarding Callie. Some are hot for her bod and/or miss her while others of us are exctatic that Tory finally did the right thing and spaced her whiny ass.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> What's always interesting is the extreme divergence of feelings regarding Callie. Some are hot for her bod and/or miss her while others of us are exctatic that Tory finally did the right thing and spaced her whiny ass.


Yes that is interesting. Even if we take the side that she is a whiny *****, good shows need a diversity of characters: some weak, some strong, some leaders, and some followers, some mysterious, and some straight forward.

She had her place and unfortunately they never really got flush her background out.

Also every fiction show on TV has soap elements, there is nothing wrong with it. If all they did was play the show as a video game of shoot the bullets it would be pretty boring.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

I agree that characters that have different aspects that resonate differently with different people are well drawn.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Now if somebody'll just flush Starbuck the nearest airlock, I'll be a happy man. I thought this was a good episode if you ignore the Starbuck parts. Why the heck would Adama give her a command of anybody but herself and why would anybody volunteer for a mission with her in charge?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Now if somebody'll just flush Starbuck the nearest airlock, I'll be a happy man. I thought this was a good episode if you ignore the Starbuck parts. Why the heck would Adama give her a command of anybody but herself and why would anybody volunteer for a mission with her in charge?


And perhaps more to the point (I agree with you on an emotional level, but let's get military), why would Adama assemble a team to test whether or not a suspected traitor is being honest and put it under the command of the suspected traitor?


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

zalusky said:


> Maybe we should create two threads for the whiners and for the people who are enjoying it. I really can't understand why the big bag of suck people bother.
> 
> There are a lot of shows I don't like so I don't watch and leave it at that.


I'm watching just to see how it ends, but it is, in my opinion, definitely a shadow of what it was.

This thread is to *discuss* the show, not get a sunshine enema. To create the thread you want, I suggest you just add everyone who complains to your ignore list. You'll then only get the shiny happy comments you want.


----------



## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

I'd have no problem with the "revelations" that have been made if only they made sense from last season/previous seasons.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

smark said:


> I'd have no problem with the "revelations" that have been made if only they made sense from last season/previous seasons.


They don't and the ending won't.
Best approach is to take Rob's advice and simply enjoy the final ride, rooting for characters we hate to get whacked, lots of soft-core scenes with Six and other neat cylon stuff. I'm just beging for less of those pretentious & booring scenes with Lee as Jr Politico. Frak, I'd even prefer seeing him shirtless as some here would love.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

pkscout said:


> I'm watching just to see how it ends, but it is, in my opinion, definitely a shadow of what it was.
> 
> This thread is to *discuss* the show, not get a sunshine enema. To create the thread you want, I suggest you just add everyone who complains to your ignore list. You'll then only get the shiny happy comments you want.


I don't mind constructive criticism but I don't get why people watch and comment on shows they don't like. Why waste the time.

Comments like Bag o Suck and whiner and such really aren't very interesting. How about explaining why you think its a Bag o Suck so that I can understand.

I'd be interested in these same people actually telling me a series that they did like better.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

zalusky said:


> I don't mind constructive criticism but I don't get why people watch and comment on shows they don't like. Why waste the time.
> 
> Comments like Bag o Suck and whiner and such really aren't very interesting. How about explaining why you think its a Bag o Suck so that I can understand.
> 
> I'd be interested in these same people actually telling me a series that they did like better.


Rome.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

appleye1 said:


> I've speculated about that. That Chief, Tigh, and maybe Anders aren't Cylons and that Tory somehow engineered them hearing the "music" and that she is manipulating them.
> 
> But that would mean that we still have four skin jobs to identify, instead of one, and I'm not crazy about that idea.


IMHO they're all "cylons" (or whatever the Final Five truly are). But of the four, Tory is the only one who's embracing her new identity. Let's face it, her character life was pretty boring before; but now she's "special" *and* she gets to ignore all those inconvient moral inhibitions, because she's not human anyway. Just like teenagers who read too much Nietzsche, she's power-tripping on the freedom of amorality...


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

zalusky said:


> I'd be interested in these same people actually telling me a series that they did like better.


LOST, where the writers although fallible humans actually do the work to plan ahead instead of expressing disdain for their audience by making up the Final 5 on the fly.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

zalusky said:


> I don't mind constructive criticism but I don't get why people watch and comment on shows they don't like. Why waste the time.
> 
> Comments like Bag o Suck and whiner and such really aren't very interesting. How about explaining why you think its a Bag o Suck so that I can understand.
> 
> I'd be interested in these same people actually telling me a series that they did like better.


Compare this to Lost, where the writers clearly have a plan to get from A to Z. And after all is said and done and we learn everything there is to know about the Island (or as much as they want to tell us anyway) we'll be able to go back to the beginning and watch it again and see all the clues that were laid out.

Wonderful, wonderful storytelling.

In BSG we've got a story that the writers ADMIT to making up as they go and has no relationship to the precedents laid down in previous seasons. Now going back and watching season one is just going to confuse and frustrate people, not give them a sense of satisfaction as they see all the pieces falling together.

BSG is a TRAINWRECK and I'll watch it crash because I'm invested in it. But the story has derailed so far that it's almost not recognizable from its beginnings.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Malarky - the second season of Lost had lots complaints by people. They said they were creating back stories without advancing the main story right and left. It was only in the third season that they decided to create a plan to end it in so many seasons. The wow factor of last seasons flash forward ending got everybody all excited. 

I do agree that a set number of seasons gives the writers the ability to plan a complete story arc. However when you don't have that and you MAKE IT UP.

BSG last season was in the same boat in that they didnt know how many seasons they had so they had a lot of peripheral arcs to show the human condition.

This is the first season where they have a known end to the series.

I can thread dump too, but whats the value in it.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

zalusky said:


> I'd be interested in these same people actually telling me a series that they did like better.


Dexter.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

zalusky said:


> Malarky - the second season of Lost had lots complaints by people. They said they were creating back stories without advancing the main story right and left. It was only in the third season that they decided to create a plan to end it in so many seasons. The wow factor of last seasons flash forward ending got everybody all excited.


Yeah, the second season of Lost wasn't as good as the first. But it still fits in very well with the overall story arc. And if it's true that the Lost writers didn't pull their crap together until the third season, well then it's even a bigger hit to BSG. Because it shows that it can be done, and the BSG writers just don't have what it takes.

You asked for a show that we like better and a reason why, I gave one. Lost isn't perfect but they've got A LOT better control over their story than BSG seems to.


----------



## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

zalusky said:


> I'd be interested in these same people actually telling me a series that they did like better.


B5
Lost
The Shield
Arrested Development

There are many more.

I am just along for the ride like I have been for many shows that declined in quality over the years. BSG just hurts the most because I thought the writers had this great plan. Only to find out they just write on the fly and make stuff up even if it makes no sense just for shock value. I was hoping BSG would be like arrested development or B5 with a great story arc. Making watching the series the second and third time so much better. You can see the little nuggets the writer leave in the early seasons that lead to events in later seasons. You can see the slow steady development of the characters that make sense.


----------



## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

zalusky said:


> I do agree that a set number of seasons gives the writers the ability to plan a complete story arc. However when you don't have that and you MAKE IT UP.
> 
> BSG last season was in the same boat in that they didnt know how many seasons they had so they had a lot of peripheral arcs to show the human condition.
> 
> ...


I agree that comparing the show to Lost is a bit unfair. Very few shows are as well planned out as Lost appears to be. But just because you don't know where you're going, doesn't mean you can't have a cohesive storyline. Many great sci fi shows have been episodic but still were internally consistent (Star Trek , Quantum Leap, Land of the Lost, even the old BSG) Each of these (and many others) were able to create story arcs that lasted more than a few episodes and resolve them without the writers knowing when the series would end. Throughout the series, Cylon motivations have been all over the map. We were told "They have a plan", and some of us believed it. Now we know that whatever their plan was, it's been totally abandoned, and we will never know what it was.

Why do we still watch? Like Rob said, it's sill a fun ride. Why do we complain? Because it could have been so much better. Ronald Moore is an excellent writer. He wrote some of the best TNG episodes, and in BSG he (re)created a wonderful world of interesting characters and possibilities. Unfortunately, he didn't have the experience, or the will, to look beyond the next couple of episodes.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I kinda hope there'll be a Cylons only spin-off.


----------



## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

Figaro said:


> The episode bored me to tears, that being said, it did redeem itself with the death of
> Callie. I have wanted her dead since the first moment her perpetually weeping face appeared on screen. Thank the gods she is finally dead! "So say we all!!!"


Dude, you made me bust out. Fraking hilarious!


----------



## jones07 (Jan 30, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I kinda hope there'll be a Cylons only spin-off.


Excuse me.

Now how will that storyline play out?


----------



## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

jones07 said:


> Excuse me.
> 
> Now how will that storyline play out?


I envision it similar to Cavemen.

The skinjobs and toasters all get an apartment together in NYC, and hilarity ensues!

One night a toaster gets a date with a lady in the building. Things get a little heated, and she asks "Billy" (see, the toasters have normal American names. That is funny) to help take her shirt off. The toaster mechanically replies 'By your command'. <cue laugh track>


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

zalusky said:


> I don't mind constructive criticism but I don't get why people watch and comment on shows they don't like. Why waste the time.
> 
> Comments like Bag o Suck and whiner and such really aren't very interesting. How about explaining why you think its a Bag o Suck so that I can understand.
> 
> I'd be interested in these same people actually telling me a series that they did like better.


well, since I made the "big bag of suck" comment...

I like the show...I used to LOVE the show...I've made it very clear why I liked it and why now I don't really...most of us posting here have done so from the start...so I don't feel that I need to list a synopsis of everything I've posted so far but you are welcome to search and find out that I have posted many times about how great this show is...

I thought *this ep* sucked...I'm still watching hoping that it will recapture the old glory or -- at worst -- to see how this train wreck ends...you're welcome to put me on your ignore list...


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

zalusky said:


> Malarky - the second season of Lost had lots complaints by people. They said they were creating back stories without advancing the main story right and left. It was only in the third season that they decided to create a plan to end it in so many seasons.


This is not entirely correct. The creators of Lost have said many times that they had an overall idea, from day 1, of how the story was to begin, the main parts in the middle, and how it was going to end. They were hoping for 5 or so seasons and said so from the beginning. They were also aware that they were, ultimately, not the ones that decided when the show would end. ABC could cancel at any time.

In the 3rd season, ABC and the creators came up with a *time line* with which to end the show that made both parties happy. This is very different from coming up with a *story line* to end the show. That's the difference.

As someone else mentioned, it really isn't fair to compare it to Lost. What Lost has been able to achieve, creatively, is nothing short of groundbreaking for a network show.

All that said, I thought this episode was great. This is the story line we've been dealt, so at least it's interesting. Callie's death was very intense, and the flashbacks with her and Chief through the seasons were very well done.


----------



## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

Figaro said:


> I have wanted her dead since the first moment her perpetually weeping face appeared on screen. Thank the gods she is finally dead! "So say we all!!!"


I agree 100% She was such a useless, weak character. Why the Chief ever married her is beyond me! She should've been executed for killing the original Boomer. They just let her walk on that and remain in the military.

At the beginning where she was reliving her fights with the Chief about him working so much and she was sick of her screaming baby, I said "Uh, now you realize how much better you had it when you were working side-by-side with him and not stuck at home with the screaming baby. Be careful what you wish for..."

I knew the writers would never have her throw the baby out the airlock (though that was clearly her intent). Just like they didn't let them abort Sharon's baby. Couldn't upset the moral majority with something like that, even if it is on cable...and only fiction to begin with.

I loved the discussion about the "known cylon nymphomania" when the three were in the weapons lockers. I was thinking "once Tory got some from Baltar, they created a monster" when she was clearly going after the Chief.

SO glad that Callie didn't kill him! I was worried there for a while, but glad he survived; he's one of my favorite characters.

Cheryl


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

philw1776 said:


> The Cylon civil war continues to be amusing to me but not as fresh as when first introduced. Unavoidable. Unlike most I'm not a fan of Dean Stockwell and I don't like his character, but any Six or Boomer are always watchable. Can't wait until the un-boxing.


Are they going to go through with the unboxing? After all, assuming that Cavil and Co won that ambush, is there a majority of the surviving models in that fleet that are in favor of unboxing the Deanas. (I guess there probably are, but he did apparently just wipe out half the votes)


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

speedcouch said:


> I loved the discussion about the "known cylon nymphomania" when the three were in the weapons lockers. I was thinking "once Tory got some from Baltar, they created a monster" when she was clearly going after the Chief.


was she really going after him? I thought the scene was setup (by the director) so it would look like an innocent talk that LOOKS like they have something going to Callie...


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Anubys said:


> was she really going after him? I thought the scene was setup (by the director) so it would look like an innocent talk that LOOKS like they have something going to Callie...


It definitely seemed like Tory was making a move, but in regards to the Chief, I think it was innocent .


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jradford said:


> It definitely seemed like Tory was making a move, but in regards to the Chief, I think it was innocent .


I may have missed it...was she a virgin when she did it with Baltar? was there anything in the dialog to imply that?


----------



## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

Anubys said:


> was she really going after him? I thought the scene was setup (by the director) so it would look like an innocent talk that LOOKS like they have something going to Callie...


I might've believed that, had she not apparently said to the other two in the meeting that she was having nympho "feelings" or something. Then when she saved the Chief's baby and "flushed" his wife, I think that it was more clear she really wants him. Of course, the other side is she just didn't want to sacrifice a "mixed" child and had to shut Callie up before she told everyone they were cylons. I liked that multi-dimensional aspect of her actions. It could be either or both.

Cheryl


----------



## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

No, Tory was clearly not a virgin since she told Baltar she always cried during sex. I just meant she'd got a recent taste of sex again and maybe it triggered the nypho cylon trait or something.


----------



## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

OK, back on topic--I've always been a Callie fan--and it really wasn't fair to have her get out of bed in her undies this episode, only to kill her off. I want more undies!

Anyway, I thought the episode was really good--if not really depressing. And I still think that the "Final 5" are not spylons--rather, I think they're something more, something that will actually tie human and cylon mythology together.

But if the writers are all pulling this out of their butts each week, I'm going to make a prediction--I think we'll see another half dozen or so deaths of somewhat larger characters (like Callie). These deaths will have an emotional affect on many people, including the "Final 5". One of these deaths will be the final Cylon model. It will resurrect, and the return of that character will have a pivotal affect on one of the final five.

Personally, if it goes that route, I think it could very well be Callie--making her and Tyrol's child the first "Spylon child".


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> I think she may have opened a can of worms that even she doesn't understand yet!





vertigo235 said:


> Yeah, if the centurons took on the skin jobs it would be no contest.


Well, except I think they're all dead now. I don't think that Brother Cavill, et al have un-chipped Centurions on their ships and they just blew up the 6 and Sharon ship, with, I expect, the intent of boxing them when they come out. This episode had so much going on that I had forgotten about the whole ambush thing until I was thinking about the episode last night.

Also, :down::down::down: to Sci-Fi channel (or BSG's marketing team, not sure how that works) for essentially showing the conclusion of this episode in the previews from last week. I normally watch previews, but I only want a hint of things, not the actual plot and ending of the show.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I do remember one part of this big bag of suck ep that was good: the centurian not acting until Six said "please"


That was priceless.


Uncle Briggs said:


> I'm with you. I like the show. I just sit back and enjoy it. I don't analyze it frame by frame.


+me


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> Well, except I think they're all dead now. I don't think that Brother Cavill, et al have un-chipped Centurions on their ships and they just blew up the 6 and Sharon ship, with, I expect, the intent of boxing them when they come out.


IF they were killed they WON'T 'come out' because they stated that the Ressurection Ship failed to make the jump and therefore dead would be dead forever.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Are they going to go through with the unboxing? After all, assuming that Cavil and Co won that ambush, is there a majority of the surviving models in that fleet that are in favor of unboxing the Deanas. (I guess there probably are, but he did apparently just wipe out half the votes)


I'm confident they'll unbox the model. More hell breaks out and hilarity ensues. Gotta luv the cylon on cylon conflicts.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Question I haven't seen asked -- how will Callie's death be explained? We see Adama talking to the Chief at the end, but what will be the explanation of how she jetted out the airlock? Suicide? I would think there would be safeguards in place to prevent someone from accidentally (or purposely) opening the airlock from within the airlock.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

She was all set to punch the button from the inside. They'll probably just write it off as a suicide.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

philw1776 said:


> IF they were killed they WON'T 'come out' because they stated that the Ressurection Ship failed to make the jump and therefore dead would be dead forever.


I'm curious to find out how Cavill and his folks were able to make the resurrection ship stay back without Six and her folks finding out...presumably, the resurrection ship has at least one of each model...


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

philw1776 said:


> IF they were killed they WON'T 'come out' because they stated that the Ressurection Ship failed to make the jump and therefore dead would be dead forever.


Good call.


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> She was all set to punch the button from the inside. They'll probably just write it off as a suicide.


Right, she was acting erratic, complained to the doc so he figured she was paranoid, brained her hubby with a wrench, stole his "Chief's Plot Device Key" and was all set to jettison herself out the viper bay anyway.


----------



## SoldOnTiVo (Mar 5, 2003)

Gunnyman said:


> And Weapons locker 1701D was a very nice touch.


Why didn't I catch this one 
<turning in my geek card>


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

philw1776 said:


> IF they were killed they WON'T 'come out' because they stated that the Resurrection Ship failed to make the jump and therefore dead would be dead forever.


It didn't simply "fail to make the jump"; that was part of Cavil's ambush. Kill the rebels in a place where they can't resurrect.


----------



## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

LlamaLarry said:


> Right, she was acting erratic, complained to the doc so he figured she was paranoid, brained her hubby with a wrench, stole his "Chief's Plot Device Key" and was all set to jettison herself out the viper bay anyway.


Gee thanks... now I have to go clean off my monitor. "Chief's Plot Device Key" indeed...


----------



## raebyddet (Oct 21, 2003)

OK maybe the do have a bit of foreshadowing in the show after all. Not sure what to make of it. But its interesting.



> Commenter Michael asks us whether we noticed the Orion constellation during an establishing shot with the Basestars.












http://www.tvsquad.com/2008/04/18/battlestar-galactica-the-ties-that-bind/


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It didn't simply "fail to make the jump"; that was part of Cavil's ambush. Kill the rebels in a place where they can't resurrect.


So say we all


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> IF they were killed they WON'T 'come out' because they stated that the Ressurection Ship failed to make the jump and therefore dead would be dead forever.


So who were the spylons that are now "dead forever"? Was the 6 on the ship "Caprica 6" (the one with Baltar on Caprica when the nukes came)? And the 8 that was killed, that wasn't Boomer... Boomer is the 8 that's Cavil's lover (and topless ballerina... WTF was up with that, btw!? ), right?


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

philw1776 said:


> IF they were killed they WON'T 'come out' because they stated that the Ressurection Ship failed to make the jump and therefore dead would be dead forever.


And one of the Boomers told one of the Cavels that "We're REALLY killing them." There was no ambiunity. This ia a much greater breach of protocol then when the centurians killed the ones in the council chamber. THEY were downloaded, but no one will be downloaded here since the resurection ship isn't there.


----------



## jones07 (Jan 30, 2001)

Did we see the base ship destroyed? 
I know we saw it under attack and taking damage.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Have we seen sex between cylons before this implication that Tory wants the chief?


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

Boomer and Cavil seem pretty close.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

LlamaLarry said:


> Boomer and Cavil seem pretty close.


Yeah, but there's half of that equation that makes me not want to see them having sex.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Bryanmc said:


> Yeah, but there's half of that equation that makes me not want to see them having sex.


...and that would be....?


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

One thing they haven't talked about yet is whether the regeneration process could have data corruption. Takes me back to that Michael Keaton movie Multiplicity where each copy got worse and worse.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> ...and that would be....?


You're right, Cavil's one sexy mofo...

Greg


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

zalusky said:


> One thing they haven't talked about yet is whether the regeneration process could have data corruption. Takes me back to that Michael Keaton movie Multiplicity where each copy got worse and worse.


Back in the Michael Keaton/Multiplicity era, cloning was analog. It's digital now.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

busyba said:


> Back in the Michael Keaton/Multiplicity era, cloning was analog. It's digital now.


Yea but there could be artifacts in that overly compressed protocol.
Of course they are probably replicating 3 HD bodies for every one destroyed.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> ...and that would be....?


Boomer. Yech.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Bryanmc said:


> Boomer. Yech.


yeah...just as I suspected...


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> yeah...just as I suspected...


She is gross. I could hardly watch the scene of her dancing for Cavil the 4th or 5th time. in slo mo. Thank god my wife was not in the room or I would probably be looking on ebay for a patch like Tigh's.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

LlamaLarry said:


> She is gross. I could hardly watch the scene of her dancing for Cavil the 4th or 5th time. in slo mo. Thank god my wife was not in the room or I would probably be looking on ebay for a patch like Tigh's.


Maybe in 30-40 years you will change your mind and cheer for Cavil.


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

zalusky said:


> Maybe in 30-40 years you will change your mind and cheer for Cavil.


Oh, I was cheering for him. And cursing him and his lucky Cylon butt at the same time.

Boomer is wicked, wicked hot.


----------



## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

I started watching again after getting disappointed from the 2nd season. Everyone was so depraved and depressing.

So I catch up and start again to see.... well, the first 2 eps were good. Then this.

It negated anything that happened in the last episode.

It used plot devices so transparent to keep things status quo. Nothing REALLY changes. 

The people that are supposed to be good, never gain ANY ground. The show is like someone trying to claw at you from the grave and succeeding.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Few series are consistently good or great every episode. I'll take better than 50&#37;.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

NJChris said:


> I started watching again after getting disappointed from the 2nd season. Everyone was so depraved and depressing.
> 
> So I catch up and start again to see.... well, the first 2 eps were good. Then this.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your looking for Adama to hire Jack Bauer when he finally gets to earth to take on the bad guys.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

NJChris said:


> Nothing REALLY changes.


Cally might disagree.


----------



## jstack (Mar 26, 2005)

busyba said:


> Cally might disagree.


I know what you mean. Her hair was different.


----------



## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

zalusky said:


> Sounds like your looking for Adama to hire Jack Bauer when he finally gets to earth to take on the bad guys.


No.......


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

busyba said:


> Cally might disagree.


Dead men tell no tales. Or women.

Greg


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jones07 said:


> Did we see the base ship destroyed?
> I know we saw it under attack and taking damage.


I'm pretty sure we did see a base ship get destroyed...the ship destroyed was implied to be the one with Six, but that is not confirmed...

as for the multiplicity thing, I think there is something to that since they did say that revival is more painful each time and it takes longer to recover from being dead/killed...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I'm pretty sure we did see a base ship get destroyed...the ship destroyed was implied to be the one with Six, but that is not confirmed...


If it wasn't, then it was a pretty major cheat.

Which, I guess, doesn't mean it wasn't...


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

busyba said:


> So who were the spylons that are now "dead forever"? Was the 6 on the ship "Caprica 6" (the one with Baltar on Caprica when the nukes came)? And the 8 that was killed, that wasn't Boomer... Boomer is the 8 that's Cavil's lover (and topless ballerina... WTF was up with that, btw!? ), right?


The 6 on the basestar is/was Gina ... Caprica is in Galactica's brig.

Boomer is the 8 with Cavil.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

gina must live. She is exponentially hotter with the darker hair.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Apparently some Cylon Clarity is in order: 

Caprica Six (Baltar's lover that sabotaged the colonial defenses) is on Galactica.

Natalie is the six that's causing all the Cylon Civil War trouble; and may be dead now after Cavil's attack.

Gina (Inviere) is the Six that was captured on Pegasus, (see Razor) tortured and raped, freed by Baltar and blew herself and the Rising Star up in orbit of New Caprica. 

I don't think Gina has *technically* come back.... It's assumed she was too far from a Resurrection Ship when she died to come back.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> Apparently some Cylon Clarity is in order:
> 
> Caprica Six (Baltar's lover that sabotaged the colonial defenses) is on Galactica.
> 
> ...


Thanks. They all look alike to me.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

busyba said:


> Thanks. They all look alike to me.


Racist.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> Natalie is the six that's causing all the Cylon Civil War trouble; and may be dead now after Cavil's attack.


Which Six is Natalie? Would that be the one who was part of the "ruling council" (or whatever) in Cylon-occupied New Caprica who then went on to be one slice of bread (a Deanna being the other) in a Baltar sandwich on a Basestar after the Exodus?

And were _any_ of these sixes the one who had a brawl with Starbuck on Caprica when Starbuck went back to retrieve the Arrow?

GAH! My head hurts.


----------



## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

Nice touch with Chief was talking to Callie from the bulkhead door making his voice sound metallic. An interesting thought, even though they&#8217;ve really given up four of the final five in the beginning of every show an interesting twist & shocker would be in the end they find out that none of them where skin jobs and it was all a ruse. I bet that would make Tory feel good about herself,lol


----------



## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

I think that Tory's reaction makes me feel the best about my belief that the final 5 are not just "Skinjobs". Each of these 4 people are looking differently at their lives now. Anders is pursuing Starbuck, like he always has. Tigh is latching onto his duty more than ever. Tyrol is lost, unsure of who he is--something he has always dealt with, but even moreso now.

Tory is letting go of inhibitions. She's hitting on the Chief. She's killing people off. She's letting go of moral restraint. Tory has been a conniving politician all along--doing whatever it takes to advance herself and the people she latches onto. Her killing Callie is no different--just the next step.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

zalusky said:


> Have we seen sex between cylons before this implication that Tory wants the chief?


Boomer and Tyrol 
Anders and Tory

But if you mean with all involved knowing who's a cylon? Other than the implied Cavil/Boomer relationship, there was 3 and 6 in a three-way with Baltar; unfortunately there was not enough of that shown to be certain of cylon-on-cylon action.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I am wondering if they (Tyrol/Torey/Sigh/Anders) are in fact grown up hybrids and thats why they perceive themselves as human because they grew up human so to speak.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

busyba said:


> Which Six is Natalie? Would that be the one who was part of the "ruling council" (or whatever) in Cylon-occupied New Caprica who then went on to be one slice of bread (a Deanna being the other) in a Baltar sandwich on a Basestar after the Exodus?


Natalie is is a new character and the *least* blonde of all the sixes. She executed the coup against the other Cylons and pulled the Spartacus by freeing the centurions.

Caprica Six was on the New Caprica ruling council- and was part of the Baltar/Deanna sandwich. C-Six ended up on Galactica after her and Sharon/Athena liberated Hera- (Sharon & Helo's hybrid baby)

The other Sixes that have popped up over the series (save Gina) were just redshirts.

Almost need a flowchart to keep all the Sixes straight.


----------



## Mishkin (Apr 20, 2002)

ihatecable said:


> Nice touch with Chief was talking to Callie from the bulkhead door making his voice sound metallic.


I too thought that the "metallic" voice was a nod to the "vocoder" effect with the original Cylons.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Saturn_V said:


> Natalie is is a new character and the *least* blonde of all the sixes. She executed the coup against the other Cylons and pulled the Spartacus by freeing the centurions.


When did we/you learn her name? Gina and Cap6 we know, but I hadn't heard Natalie.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Caprica Six

Her name has yet to be mentioned verbatim in an episode.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> Natalie is is a new character and the *least* blonde of all the sixes.


Considering that she fell for Cavil's trick, maybe she's the *most* blonde.


----------



## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

Maybe the spines only glow during Cylon/Cylon sex. Where all have we seen it? And yes, that is what I'm implying.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Mars Rocket said:


> Maybe the spines only glow during Cylon/Cylon sex. Where all have we seen it? And yes, that is what I'm implying.


Negative....Boomer's spine glowed when she had sex with Helo, a human, on Caprica in Season 1. Or was it Six when she had sex with Baltar (who is BARELY human). Or was it both? I'm old and forgetful...


----------



## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

Humans have never seen the glowing spine, so it's really just a tease to the audience. There's nothing that says we have to see the glowing spine every time a cylon has sex. Did we see both Deanna and Caprica Six glow when they trysted with Baltar?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> Boomer and Tyrol
> Anders and Tory
> 
> But if you mean with all involved knowing who's a cylon? Other than the implied Cavil/Boomer relationship, there was 3 and 6 in a three-way with Baltar; unfortunately there was not enough of that shown to be certain of cylon-on-cylon action.


Anders had sex with Tory? I don't recall that...


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Anders had sex with Tory? I don't recall that...


In a bunk.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> In a bunk.


/insert dirty joke here 

I don't recall that...but they made such a big deal about her with Baltar...did she cry with Anders as well?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Nope.


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> In a bunk.


Right and wasn't it in the common flight crew quarters so they all returned to find the hatch locked? The female pilot asked Anders why it was locked, spotted Tory doing some sort of cower of shame on the bunk and gave a weird look. Is she into Anders? Did we know it? Does he know it? Does it really even matter or just a look of general disappointment that he rolls with townies?


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Anders banged Tory? I must have blinked.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Terrific comprehensive BSG recap and analysis here... LONG

http://www.salon.com/ent/tv/feature/2008/04/02/bsg_explainer/index.html

Character summaries & re-caps on page 4

Those of you extremely spoiler averse (really speculation & spoiler hints) might want to skip page 5

And this once more reveals Moore's 'on the fly' approach to ploting...

_"Moore explains in the season finale podcast, *it was his idea to out four "Battlestar" characters as Cylons in the finale. Once that decision was made, he and the writers narrowed down contenders. *

Ultimately, the four were chosen for their plausible back stories and dramatic impact: Anders survived for an extended period of time on Caprica under Cylon occupation; Tyrol had a long-standing love affair with a Cylon; and nobody knows anything about Tory -- besides her fondness for pantsuits -- making her history easy to fabricate.

*As for Tigh, Moore admits that his will be the hardest back story to explain.* Tigh has known Adama for decades, and fought in the original Cylon war. He's a drunk, hates the Cylons more than anything else and was a principal figure in the anti-Cylon insurgency.

Moore has made it clear that these four Cylons will be unlike those previously shown on the show. As he points out in his commentary, *"They're a different kind of Cylon and ... these rules that we've painstakingly established for the other Cylons need not necessarily apply to [them]."*_

I think this reaffirms points made here by the more astute observers of BSG (which I am not one). Fugettaboutit on the glowing spine thingy as revealing Spylons, etc. In my personal taste I regard such after the fact revisionism as cheapening the experience and betraying those viewers who followed closely looking for hints of things to come. :down:

We now know that the BSG universe is ruled by chaotic quantum randomness.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

philw1776 said:


> these rules that we've painstakingly established for the other Cylons need not necessarily apply to [them]."


bail bail bail bail!!!


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Here's an episode recap of "The Ties that Bind" at televisionwithoutpity.com. 
An interesting but lengthy read.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Okay, so now I'm confused. I thought that the # 8's all sided with Cavill except for Boomer and that Boomer was the swing vote that broke the tie, thereby only allying one # 8 (Boomer) with the # 6's. So why were there two # 8's with the # 6 that people are calling Natalie (and where does that name come from?) Am I totally wrong?
EDIT: Okay, I had it backwards. Oops.


Saturn_V said:


> Caprica Six
> 
> Her name has yet to be mentioned verbatim in an episode.


They've called her Caprica before.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

> Moore has made it clear that these four Cylons will be unlike those previously shown on the show. As he points out in his commentary, "They're a different kind of Cylon and ... *these rules that we've painstakingly established* for the other Cylons need not necessarily apply to [them]."


The bolded line had me seriously LOL.

Painstakingly is not the word I would have gone with.

Haphazardly.... Randomly.... Even spasmodically. But not painstakingly.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

NoThru22 said:


> They've called her Caprica before.


No one's called Spartacus-Six by the *Natalie* name in an episode yet. The Natalie name has yet to be mentioned verbatim. (Cavil just calls her Six.)

(it may merely be Ron Moore's name for that particular Six, to avoid too much confusion)


----------



## digdug (Jan 13, 2004)

Did anyone else notice any subtle Moby Dick references during the garbage barge scenes?

Obviously the name Starbuck being one of them. But the scene where Starbuck is walking on the above decks while the rest of the crew is below looking up at her and she looks down to give their new coordinates? That's almost right out of the book. 

Seems to me that Starbuck was playing the part of Captain Ahab and is off on a journey in search of her White Whale (earth) while the crew thinks she's offer her rocker.


----------



## HoldenBanky (Oct 25, 2006)

NoThru22 said:


> Okay, so now I'm confused. I thought that the # 8's all sided with Cavill except for Boomer and that Boomer was the swing vote that broke the tie, thereby only allying one # 8 (Boomer) with the # 6's. So why were there two # 8's with the # 6 that people are calling Natalie (and where does that name come from?) Am I totally wrong?
> EDIT: Okay, I had it backwards. Oops.
> 
> They've called her Caprica before.


I believe Boomer was the only 8 to side with Cavil. Thereby screwing up the consistency the Cylon votes always had in the past. Voting along party lines is how I saw it. All of the 8's agreed with the 6's except for Boomer.


----------



## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

Other than Tory's display of super-strength when hitting Cally, what actual on-screen proof do we have that they're Cylons?


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

tivogurl said:


> Other than Tory's display of super-strength when hitting Cally, what actual on-screen proof do we have that they're Cylons?


They all have the same bad taste in imaginary music?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Anders' red eye.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

During the intro sequence, as the words "Four live in secret" are shown, the faces of Chief, Tigh, Anders and Tory are shown.


----------



## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Anders' red eye.


As proof it's weak. Anders has no real data to prove it one way or another. At first I thought it might be a way of programming Anders, but he hasn't done anything yet to suggest that's the case. A Cylon might scan you and retreat for reasons other than "you're a Cylon". If it _is_ an IFF mechanism, shouldn't confirmation mean "stop attacking Anders but continue the assault"? Why call off the assault entirely? We've never seen Cylon raiders try to scan pilots before, so why bother scanning Anders in the first place?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

tivogurl said:


> As proof it's weak. Anders has no real data to prove it one way or another. At first I thought it might be a way of programming Anders, but he hasn't done anything yet to suggest that's the case. A Cylon might scan you and retreat for reasons other than "you're a Cylon". If it _is_ an IFF mechanism, shouldn't confirmation mean "stop attacking Anders but continue the assault"? Why call off the assault entirely? We've never seen Cylon raiders try to scan pilots before, so why bother scanning Anders in the first place?


How would his eye turn red if he wasn't a Cylon?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

tivogurl said:


> As proof it's weak.


Well, there's your problem right there - trying to find some logical, supporting evidence. They're cylons because Ron Moore says they are.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tivogurl said:


> As proof it's weak. Anders has no real data to prove it one way or another. At first I thought it might be a way of programming Anders, but he hasn't done anything yet to suggest that's the case. A Cylon might scan you and retreat for reasons other than "you're a Cylon". If it _is_ an IFF mechanism, shouldn't confirmation mean "stop attacking Anders but continue the assault"? Why call off the assault entirely? We've never seen Cylon raiders try to scan pilots before, so why bother scanning Anders in the first place?


it's not proof to Anders, he has no clue what happened...but it's proof to us since the raider scanned him (we don't know if the red was from Anders' eye or a reflection from the raider) and then the spylons said that the raiders stopped the attack since they got a signal that some of the "Five" are with the fleet...

so of the 4, we should be quite sure that at least Anders is one of the five...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

btw: I watched the last ep again...I saw THREE base stars destroyed in the cylon fight...


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> btw: I watched the last ep again...I saw THREE base stars destroyed in the cylon fight...


yeah but "How many lights do you see?"


----------



## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

Anubys said:


> it's not proof to Anders, he has no clue what happened...but it's proof to us since the raider scanned him (we don't know if the red was from Anders' eye or a reflection from the raider) and then the spylons said that the raiders stopped the attack since they got a signal that some of the "Five" are with the fleet...
> 
> so of the 4, we should be quite sure that at least Anders is one of the five...


Assume the implication is correct. How do the raiders know who the 5 are but the regular Cylons don't? If I were a Cylon, if a raider told me they stopped an attack because they detected one of the 5 I'd immediately ask them "who are they?"


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Figaro said:


> yeah but "How many lights do you see?"


*There! Are! Four! Lights!*


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tivogurl said:


> Assume the implication is correct. How do the raiders know who the 5 are but the regular Cylons don't? If I were a Cylon, if a raider told me they stopped an attack because they detected one of the 5 I'd immediately ask them "who are they?"


the raider wouldn't know...they received a coded message from a viper pilot correctly identifying him/herself as a spylon...assuming all encryption and protocols used are correct (clearly, they were), the raider relayed the message to the fleet and their programming kicked-in and started the retreat...

all indications so far point to the conclusion that the Five are different from the Seven inasmuch as they are unique (no copies) and therefore too valuable...at the very least, their mission is so important and so secret that no interference is allowed in any way...killing one of them (even if a copy existed) would ruin the mission...


----------



## Bai Shen (Dec 17, 2004)

Saturn_V said:


> Stan: OMIGOD, They Killed Cally!
> Kyle: YOU BASTARDS!!!!
> 
> This was a hard episode- that character was one of my favs since the mini-series. And although it was a strong performance and dramatic exit... I'm still more than a little pissed.
> ...


+1


----------



## Bai Shen (Dec 17, 2004)

zalusky said:


> Yes that is interesting. Even if we take the side that she is a whiny *****, good shows need a diversity of characters: some weak, some strong, some leaders, and some followers, some mysterious, and some straight forward.
> 
> She had her place and unfortunately they never really got flush her background out.
> 
> Also every fiction show on TV has soap elements, there is nothing wrong with it. If all they did was play the show as a video game of shoot the bullets it would be pretty boring.


Well, she was initially slated to die back in S1 as a background character. But then they decided in the prison ship episode to give her a bigger role.


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> How would his eye turn red if he wasn't a Cylon?


Too much to drink the night before?


----------



## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

... And in six pages only ONE of you noticed Orion (as well at Taurus) in the background when the Cylon Baseships were attacked?

This is probably the most important revelation so far this season: The Cylons are VERY close to Earth.


----------



## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

tivogurl said:


> Other than Tory's display of super-strength when hitting Cally, what actual on-screen proof do we have that they're Cylons?


The opening montage makes that a given.

When I first saw "Empire Strikes Back," I left the theater saying "Vader is NOT Luke's dad! He's just saying that to mess with his head!"

But when a story takes a turn likes this and then says "no, that isn't true," the audience feels cheated. It would be as if the final scene of BSG shows William Shatner as Captain Kirk waking up and saying "I just had the wildest dream!"

....

On the other hand, when 6 and Boomer have sex, their spines glow red. We haven't seen any of the "4 of the final 5" do that, though I'm sure we've seen most of them having sex (as well as Starbuck & Baltar).


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dancar said:


> When I first saw "Empire Strikes Back," I left the theater saying "Vader is NOT Luke's dad! He's just saying that to mess with his head!"


That's funny, after Star Wars I just took it for granted that Darth was Luke's father. It seemed obvious to me, from the way they talked about his father. And my friends just LAUGHED at me...

...for about three years. Then, not so much.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Dancar said:


> when 6 and Boomer have sex, their spines glow red


If they showed 6 and Boomer having sex, I think my entire body would turn red!


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Dancar said:


> But when a story takes a turn likes this and then says "no, that isn't true," the audience feels cheated. It would be as if the final scene of BSG shows William Shatner as Captain Kirk waking up and saying "I just had the wildest dream!"


Dude, I think you're onto something there. I don't think I'd feel cheated at all, actually, hehehe.

Greg


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's funny, after Star Wars I just took it for granted that Darth was Luke's father. It seemed obvious to me, from the way they talked about his father. And my friends just LAUGHED at me...
> 
> ...for about three years. Then, not so much.


well...at least not about THAT anyway!


----------



## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

busyba said:


> If they showed 6 and Boomer having sex, I think my entire body would turn red!


Not my spine, anyway. Other parts, perhaps.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> well...at least not about THAT anyway!


You'll notice I said not so much. They COMPLETELY stopped laughing at me about THAT!


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

If the raiders quit attacking the fleet because they detected Cylons in the fleet (Anders), then why were they attacking so much earlier on when Boomer was a viper pilot? Didn't she count? Also, there were Gina's, Dianna's, and Leoben's in the fleet when they were being attacked. Why would the raiders quit merely because of Anders?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> If the raiders quit attacking the fleet because they detected Cylons in the fleet (Anders), then why were they attacking so much earlier on when Boomer was a viper pilot? Didn't she count? Also, there were Gina's, Dianna's, and Leoben's in the fleet when they were being attacked. Why would the raiders quit merely because of Anders?


Because he's one of the Final Five.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Church AV Guy said:


> If the raiders quit attacking the fleet because they detected Cylons in the fleet (Anders), then why were they attacking so much earlier on when Boomer was a viper pilot? Didn't she count? Also, there were Gina's, Dianna's, and Leoben's in the fleet when they were being attacked. Why would the raiders quit merely because of Anders?


a spylon from the seven is expendable and dowloadable...seems the five are special...

the raiders are programmed not to attack them...the seven are programmed not to THINK about them...


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Okay, that seems fair, IF you accept that the Five are special and won't download or something. So, WHO is pulling the strings? Who programmed the raiders to not attack the final five? Who programmed the seven to not even think about the final five? There is another governing inteligence that we have not seen or even heard about doing all this manipulating behind the scenes. Not "God"! An Imerious Leader that sounds like John Steed from The Avengers? The last one of the five? This controller is not "in the dark" like the four were, or the seven are, but is aware and behind it all.

Oh, and while I am thinking about BIG stuff, what is the Cylon "economy" like that it can create and sustain so many base stars, innumerable replacement bodies and raiders, and nuclear bombs by the thousand? Is the whole thing nothing but a giant war machine? It takes considerable "wealth" (however you describe wealth) to make that much military equipment. Exactly how are they paying for all this?


----------



## Bai Shen (Dec 17, 2004)

Church AV Guy said:


> Oh, and while I am thinking about BIG stuff, what is the Cylon "economy" like that it can create and sustain so many base stars, innumerable replacement bodies and raiders, and nuclear bombs by the thousand? Is the whole thing nothing but a giant war machine? It takes considerable "wealth" (however you describe wealth) to make that much military equipment. Exactly how are they paying for all this?


They don't need money. They're all programmed robots. Notice there's no theft, etc?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Church AV Guy said:


> Okay, that seems fair, IF you accept...


yes...the "IF" is the operative word here...this is what we have been told the raiders and 7 spylons believe...so this is all we know so far...

the Truth? could be anything (insert snide remark about the writers here)


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Church AV Guy said:


> Okay, that seems fair, IF you accept that the Five are special and won't download or something. So, WHO is pulling the strings? Who programmed the raiders to not attack the final five? Who programmed the seven to not even think about the final five? There is another governing inteligence that we have not seen or even heard about doing all this manipulating behind the scenes.


Not necessarily. The spylons are practically robots. It's possible that they could have voted on some "plan" that involved placing the final five deep undercover, programming the raiders (& centurions??) to avoid endangering them, and then programmed themselves to forget the final five and not think about them.
Can't do that with humans, because you can't really program humans to forget and not investigate things, but with robots?

Cavil's mentioned a few times that the Cylons aren't suppose to be attempting to discover who the final five are.

The cylons could have done it to themselves. (No idea _why_ they'd want to, but they appear capable of doing it).


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jonathan_S said:


> Not necessarily. The spylons are practically robots.


Except, of course, when they're medically indistinguishable from humans.

It varies from week to week, apparently...


----------



## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

A few thoughts: the "older guy" Cylon (sorry I don't know all the names) referred to the "original programers" who supposedly don't want the seven to know who the final 5 are. He's clearly keeping secrets. That's why the D'Anna model is on ice - she saw the final five and recongnized at least one. He doesn't want the information shared with the others.

The Cylon economy: Human societies require economies in order to incentivize people to produce goods and perform services that human societies require to function and survive. If no one needed to work in order to eat, have a place to live or have an iPod to listen to, there wouldn't be enough food (not enough fruit conveniently grows on nearby trees), no houses an no iPods.

Machines that can be controlled by simple software commands can simply be programmed to perform necessary functions. The only "cost" are the recources that are needed to perform tasks. 

But the Cylons are clearly more than machines. There is a pronounced spiritual/religious thread to BSG that transends and encompasses Caprica polytheism, Clylon monotheism, and probably whatever religions are practiced on Earth depending on whether this series ends up being set in the past, present or future.


----------

