# NY Times Gives Tivo Thumbs Down



## Emacee (Dec 15, 2000)

In the Personal Tech column of this morning's New York Times Business section, columnist Joshua Brushstein tries a Tivo Premiere and basically concludes it's more trouble (and money) than it's worth. Most of the trouble, it turns out, comes not from Tivo but from his cable company (Time-Warner) who either have bunch of people clueless about cable cards or are actively trying to discourage anybody from breaking away from their own DVRs. Still, it's a sign that the Tivo company is also clueless about how to market itself effectively, how to work with cable companies and to distinguish Tivo from cable-default DVRs.



> *TiVo, Nice Service if You Can Get It*
> By JOSHUA BRUSTEIN
> 
> TiVo has a bit of a problem. It wants to be the future of television, seamlessly mixing cable television with Internet programming. But its still largely thought of as a fancier version of the DVR available through the cable company. And it asks for a lot more in return for its service than its clunkier competitors in the world of DVRs do. ... READ MORE
> http://gadgetwise.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/18/tivo-nice-service-if-you-can-get-it/?partner=rss&emc=rss


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## daxem (Jul 22, 2002)

It seems more like an indictment of TWC than the TiVo.


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

The cable companies don't want to work with TiVo. They couldn't care less whether or not they are able to configure their service with TiVo DVRs. It's because they make far more $$$ renting their own DVRs, naturally.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

First a couple of very minor things:
1. The link provided has "blog" in it -- thus it isn't quite accurate to say this is the NY Times saying this.
2. The TiVo HD has been on software version 11.0k for months now -- perhaps your signature needs updating?

Now my reaction to the blog content:
The user's experience could have been one of hundreds, if not thousands, of posts on this forum, in particular the Time Warner threads in the Series 3 forum. And apparently he didn't even have to deal with a Tuning Adapter! (I wonder if he actually needs one but just didn't go far enough to realize he wasn't getting all his channels?)

He dings TiVo for not working better with cable cos but I doubt that is a valid criticism. The cable cos are clearly dragging their feet in supporting TiVo for obvious business reasons plus the fact that TiVo users are way less than 1% of their customers -- i.e., have no clout. I believe a majority of problems are caused by cable cos not setting up their systems to interact correctly with CableCARDs and Tuning Adapters, and how can you expect TiVo to fix that?

This situation is not surprising at all. The equipment needed to support TiVos (CableCARD and Tuning Adapter) was forced on the cable cos by the FCC and this is an example of what happens when you try to impose a solution that goes against basic business interests and don't have (or won't apply) the resources to enforce it -- worsened by the fact that the problems are frequently very technical in nature and can only be fixed by the cable co technical staff.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

It also sounds like he's being over-charged for his cable card. If anyone is registered to post comments there they should tell him that he should complain to the FCC about the charges and the trouble getting his CC installed.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

nrc said:


> It also sounds like he's being over-charged for his cable card. If anyone is registered to post comments there they should tell him that he should complain to the FCC about the charges and the trouble getting his CC installed.


complain to the FCC !! The average cable customer that wants a DVR does not want to go through this trouble no matter who fault it is, TiVos is the one that should be doing the complaining as they are having the loss of business as a result of these type of cable co problems. Most of my friends now just take the cable co DVR and have no problems that the cable co can't solve, and they don't call me.


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## Emacee (Dec 15, 2000)

dlfl: The link is to nytimes.com, the New York Times website. Nowhere on the webpage does the word blog appear. The writer is a New York Times columnist.

The reality is Tivo does not work alone. Tivo does not provide content. Cable does not need Tivo. Tivo needs cable, satellite or OTA. If Tivo wants to sell their product to cable customers, they need at least some cooperation from cable companies. Their DirecTV, Cox and Comcast deals suggest they are starting to realize it. The potential end-user doesn't care about Tivo's problems with cable companies and most will not go out of their way to get around them.

Tivo: Good product, poor marketing and bad management. I've enjoyed the product since 1999 but the way they yank customers around on deals and pricing, I feel no loyalty to the company at all.


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## DeWitt (Jun 30, 2004)

Gadgetwise is a regular blog of the NY Times.

To find it go to the homepage, click the all blogs link....


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

nrc said:


> It also sounds like he's being over-charged for his cable card. If anyone is registered to post comments there they should tell him that he should complain to the FCC about the charges and the trouble getting his CC installed.





lessd said:


> complain to the FCC !! The average cable customer that wants a DVR does not want to go through this trouble no matter who fault it is, TiVos is the one that should be doing the complaining as they are having the loss of business as a result of these type of cable co problems. Most of my friends now just take the cable co DVR and have no problems that the cable co can't solve, and they don't call me.


I agree with nrc in principle that consumers should always complain to the appropriate government entity when regulations or laws are violated. However, in this case I have to agree with lessd, although note that TiVo *has* complained to the FCC, numerous times. I think it's way too late for complaints about cable cos poor support for CableCARD and Tuning Adapter to have any effect beyond those that have already been filed. Also, from the way the linked blog reads, it sound's like he has already given up on TiVo, so complaining about CableCARD charges won't do him any good.

It is the nature of our government that complaining to an agency frequently is a very unrewarding process with very delayed results, if any, although I agree it should be done. However there is no better government. You might be able to get immediate results under Sharia law by complaining to your local government council of elders (whatever they call it). But let's not go there!


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Nothing that we didn't already know. 

I and many others have stated that cable cards while they are only thing that saved TiVo from folding. They are also the main reason TiVo can not maintain or expand the number of Stand Alone users. 

It is also the reason that the big boys (Google, Microsoft, & Apple) have not entered the consumer DVR business as they push into peoples living rooms. 

Without a true "plug & play" solution that covers all forms of "pay TV services" (cable, sat, IP) third party STBs/DVRs are never going to be anything but a niche market. 

Thanks,


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

You can blame the CC all you want. It is still Tivo's problem in the end. It's driving people away.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Emacee said:


> dlfl: The link is to nytimes.com, the New York Times website. Nowhere on the webpage does the word blog appear.......


What I said was


> The link provided has "blog" in it


, here is the link:


> http://gadgetwise.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/18/tivo-nice-service-if-you-can-get-it/?partner=rss&emc=rss


Where I've highlighted "blogs".
When you say the NYTimes says this or that, the normal meaning is either it's an editorial position or was stated by a corporate spokesman. As I said, it's a minor point.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

aadam101 said:


> You can blame the CC all you want. It is still Tivo's problem in the end. It's driving people away.


So do you complain to the air line you are flying on when the TSA makes you wait in a long line, feels you up, and makes your flying experience suck?

The bottom line is TiVo has no control over cable cards, all they can do is help a user complain to either the cable company or the FCC.

I am sure this causes TiVo to loose business and if that is what you mean by it is TiVo's problem in the end, than I guess I agree with that.

Thanks,


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> So do you complain to the air line you are flying on when the TSA makes you wait in a long line, feels you up, and makes your flying experience suck?


Yes. People look for other forms of transportation.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Never being an apologist for any corporation, I realize that TiVo is complaining to the FCC and their complaints have produced fruit. The CCs are not going to give up, however. Therefore, consumers need to complain to the FCC also. Consumers who have no financial skin in the game have more power than they realize. 

While we are at it, we should complain to the CCs.


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## Stoystown (Jun 13, 2002)

I read this story on the NY Times web site today, and came here to comment on it. 

My comment: Ouch. This story, whether it is the fault of Time Warner, or Tivo, smacks Tivo in the face. 

It points out that Tivo markets itself as a premium (and expensive) service, but then discusses how the service is difficult, and time consuming, to activate. So, the message (to me) is that you can get Tivo, but you have to pay a lot for it, and you have to deal with a bunch of hassle. 

Not good.

I know the cable companies have made it tough for Tivo to do what it wants to do. I suspect that Direct TV is doing similar things. But that does not excuse Tivo. I not going to buy a product that portrays itself as a victim of circumstances. They need to overcome these cable company issues if they want to close the sale.

I had a Series 2 until I switched to Direct Tv in 2004, and had a Direct Tivo SD until last fall when the hard drive died. Now I have an SD Direct Tv DVR and have been waiting (very patiently) for the new HD Direct Tivo to come out. But my patience is pretty much at an end.

And this article doesn't help. Even though it's unrelated to Direct Tivos, I'm just getting tired of waiting for a company that constantly makes it difficult to buy or use its products (even if they have a great product). I don't need a badge of honor. I just want a very good DVR. The Direct Tv HD DVR may be good enough.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Stoystown said:


> I know the cable companies have made it tough for Tivo to do what it wants to do.


I don't think Tivo was forced into cable cards. The old series 2 units used the cable box and an IR blaster just fine. I realize it's not the most elegant solution but neither is a cable card that doesn't work.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

aadam101 said:


> I don't think Tivo was forced into cable cards. The old series 2 units used the cable box and an IR blaster just fine. I realize it's not the most elegant solution but neither is a cable card that doesn't work.


At the time of the SD to HD conversion there was no viable hardware solution to recording a HD stream. So if they were going to provide a HD solution they had to go with cable cards. At this point in time it might be viable to record an analog HD stream (component outputs) but the digital stream (HDMI) is not recordable due to licensing restrictions.

Thanks,


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## That Don Guy (Mar 13, 2003)

The article doesn't mention whether or not he was replacing his only cable box with TiVo, which could be a dangerous thing as (a) you don't get messages from the company (okay, most of them are ads for upcoming MMA or Wrestling PPVs, but occasionally they do tell you about things like free previews or new channels), and (b) you can't access PPVs.

(Now there's an idea...have some Netflix-style streaming ability for InDemand's main channel available to TiVo boxes.)


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Beryl said:


> Never being an apologist for any corporation, I realize that TiVo is complaining to the FCC and their complaints have produced fruit. The CCs are not going to give up, however. Therefore, consumers need to complain to the FCC also. Consumers who have no financial skin in the game have more power than they realize.
> 
> While we are at it, we should complain to the CCs.


TiVo users have complained to the FCC but too few and too late -- this has been going on for over three years. Consumers mostly don't bother complaining to government agencies because it's rarely going to get them any immediate satisfaction. Even worse it may never get anyone any satisfaction. I don't know if the culture on this is different in Europe and, if it is, I wonder if the net result is any better?

As for complaining to the Cable Cos, Good luck with that. The only complaint that would really get their attention is one that threatens their revenue, and TiVo users are too few (well under 1%) to have impact. And a lot of them will stay with cable (and likely provide more revenue) even if they give up on TiVo.


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## Stuxnet (Feb 9, 2011)

Until TiVo makes the cc install/paring so simple that your granny could do it, it will continue to be a stumbling block. The cable cos have no incentive to concern themselves with third-party installs. TiVo is missing the boat big-time, by not handling the cc setup with the major cable cos.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Stoystown said:


> ............. I not going to buy a product that portrays itself as a victim of circumstances. They need to overcome these cable company issues if they want to close the sale.
> ........





Stuxnet said:


> ........ TiVo is missing the boat big-time, by not handling the cc setup with the major cable cos.


It is well beyond TiVo's capability (or that of any company viewed as a nuisance competitor by the cable cos) to do what you say they should. The install problems are caused by deliberate or negligent incompetence on the part of the cable cos. They are tecnically very intricate, understood and controlled only by cable co internal tchnical experts who are not sufficiently motivated by their management to do better. And the details are different for every operator. TiVo doesn't have a chance in this scenario.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Tivo should have included the ability to control a set top box with analog output, and allowed QAM channel mapping.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

The FCC should be proactive instead of waiting for customer complaints. The FCC should conduct test installs in various markets and penalize the cable companies for poor performance.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> The FCC should be proactive instead of waiting for customer complaints. The FCC should conduct test installs in various markets and penalize the cable companies for poor performance.


I don't think we can afford that. One of the main reasons (just one, there are others) we have a $14 Billion national debt is having government do everything someone thinks they should do. I have to wonder if we wouldn't be in an overall better situation now if the FCC had not forced the cable cos to do CableCARDs and Tuning Adapters, and just let market forces work. Who knows? Maybe something resembling AllVid would already have emerged?


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## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

aadam101 said:


> You can blame the CC all you want. It is still Tivo's problem in the end. It's driving people away.


ITA. If Tivo was producing a compelling enough product, then people would jump through hoops to get it. They would also file complaints with their cable co, the FCC and their state's telecommuinations commission if necessary but why bother when a cable co. DVR is sufficient enough?


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

dlfl said:


> Maybe something resembling AllVid would already have emerged?


I.... highly, highly doubt that. The cable companies would have liked nothing better than to essentially require every customer to use a rented cable box from the provider for every TV, once they had the appropriate all-digital upgrades in place. Had the FCC not investigated and eventually mandated separable encryption, there would have been NO effort to separate the encryption from the boxes - this is an ironclad truth, as the cable companies make more money without separable encryption, and they will never do anything that works against their ability to make more money.

Honestly, when it works well, especially when no tuning adapter is needed, Cablecard is great - it just works and you don't have to think about it, you're not supposed to pay for your first one if you don't have any other cable box, the fee is low compared to a cable box, and really, that's exactly what was supposed to happen - but a) installation screwups and b) billing screwups have made that difficult.

I think the big issue is that the FCC started to require CC's in all boxes - but forgot that the cable cos would just pre-activate their boxes and make Tivo installs hell. If cable cos were required to go through the SAME PROCESS for their boxes - on the customer premises, inserting a card, calling in, pairing and so on and so forth - I have a feeling CC would be much better understood and much easier to get done, just from sheer volume.

That said, I'm HOPEFUL for the self-installation requirement that's coming in over the next few months, depending on the company. I'd seriously guess that a good bit of Tivo's issues result from completely incompetent installers / clueless CSR's, or those who are actively malicious against Tivo for various reasons, including, yes, selling the cable company DVR. Eliminate that guy and the installation appointment and associated fees and bam, you're already well on your way to being better off. Once the cable cos HAVE to have someone for CUSTOMERS to call directly about cablecards - not just the unreachable backend people who talk to installers - hopefully it will become easier and some much-needed training will have to happen. If it doesn't, I could see the FCC being upset that they don't actually let anyone self-install.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

Hey folks,

As you saw in this report, at times it can be a challenge obtaining a CableCARD. This is absolutely something we have been aware of, and we are very pleased that as of August 8, 2011, all cable providers are mandated by the FCC to allow subscribers the option of a hassle-free, no charge self-install of the cable card.

Our customer support team does have contacts with all of the major cable companies in the U.S., and we do our best to work with each company to make sure that they are aware of the law and are doing their best to solve any problems that our customers report.

Out of curiosity, have you or someone you know had similar experiences since the FCC announced this mandate in October 2010? We would like to hear your story.

Best regards,
Stephen

EDIT: Corrected date -- changed August 1st to August 8th


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

TheWGP said:


> I.... highly, highly doubt that. The cable companies would have liked nothing better than to essentially require every customer to use a rented cable box from the provider for every TV, once they had the appropriate all-digital upgrades in place. Had the FCC not investigated and eventually mandated separable encryption, there would have been NO effort to separate the encryption from the boxes - this is an ironclad truth, as the cable companies make more money without separable encryption, and they will never do anything that works against their ability to make more money.


I agree with what you say here but I think the lack of separable encryption would have created pent up consumer demand that might have spurred developments that might have been better than what we got.


TheWGP said:


> Honestly, when it works well, especially when no tuning adapter is needed, Cablecard is great


But that "especially when no tuning adapter is needed" is a big condition. I've actually had no problems with my CableCARDs at all but my TA has more than made up for it. And it's not the TA device itself, it's the signals (missing or incorrect) that Time Warner sends to it. More systems are going SDV all the time.


TheWGP said:


> I think the big issue is that the FCC started to require CC's in all boxes - but forgot that the cable cos would just pre-activate their boxes and make Tivo installs hell. If cable cos were required to go through the SAME PROCESS for their boxes - on the customer premises, inserting a card, calling in, pairing and so on and so forth - I have a feeling CC would be much better understood and much easier to get done, just from sheer volume.


But that's an unreasonable, inefficient and costly requirement that even I as a TiVo user would not wish on the Cable cos. It probably costs 10 (maybe 100) times as much to do it with a truck roll as at the factory, and they install more than 100 of their boxes for every TiVo installation.


TheWGP said:


> That said, I'm HOPEFUL for the self-installation requirement that's coming in over the next few months, depending on the company. I'd seriously guess that a good bit of Tivo's issues result from completely incompetent installers / clueless CSR's, or those who are actively malicious against Tivo for various reasons, including, yes, selling the cable company DVR. Eliminate that guy and the installation appointment and associated fees and bam, you're already well on your way to being better off.


To eliminate the incompetence in that guy, you have to have a sea change of corporate attitude toward TiVo. His incompetence results from lack of caring starting at the top and going down. So to "eliminate that guy" is a big deal.


TheWGP said:


> Once the cable cos HAVE to have someone for CUSTOMERS to call directly about cablecards - not just the unreachable backend people who talk to installers - hopefully it will become easier and some much-needed training will have to happen. If it doesn't, I could see the FCC being upset that they don't actually let anyone self-install.


I believe one of the major cable cos already has self-install and that it's working pretty well. However, many problems don't arise from a bad CableCARD or TA installation. They are complicated signal and programming problems that either the head end technical staff can't solve, or that they don't have enough management incentive to solve. This occurs most frequently when a system first rolls out SDV. I hope you don't think the cable cos are quaking in their boots worrying about whether the FCC might get upset about something. They've learned how to manage the FCC and hold them off for years.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

TiVoStephen said:


> Out of curiosity, have you or someone you know had similar experiences since the FCC announced this mandate in October 2010? We would like to hear your story.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


Well there is this guy...http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=472872. Not directly related to getting a CableCARD but definitely fits the bill about supporting tuning adapters fully.

I know there have been other posts about getting CableCARDs, but none that I could point you to off the top of my head.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

I guess I was lucky. I have Verizon FIOS and my cable cards just worked like they are supposed to on the very first try. The first tech that came out had even installed them in TiVo before.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

lessd said:


> complain to the FCC !! The average cable customer that wants a DVR does not want to go through this trouble no matter who fault it is, TiVos is the one that should be doing the complaining as they are having the loss of business as a result of these type of cable co problems. Most of my friends now just take the cable co DVR and have no problems that the cable co can't solve, and they don't call me.


True. Most people have to tend to their spouse and kids and all the other "honeydos" or demands on their life, and sitting down to complain to the FCC is just about beneath last on their list of things to do. It would be great if everyone even KNEW they could complain to the FCC, but that just isn't real life, and for some people, it is "just TV" and they took a chance on a toy, and now they feel it was a mistake. It is much easier for some of those folks to complain to TiVo (as they feel that is the appropriate party to lodge a complaint) and move on, getting a crappy cable DVR to solve the immediate desire of a DVR. The FCC doesn't even enter their minds as they are not savvy on such arcane issues.


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

dlfl said:


> I don't think we can afford that. One of the main reasons (just one, there are others) we have a $14 Billion national debt is having government do everything someone thinks they should do. I have to wonder if we wouldn't be in an overall better situation now if the FCC had not forced the cable cos to do CableCARDs and Tuning Adapters, and just let market forces work. Who knows? Maybe something resembling AllVid would already have emerged?


You're dreaming if you think that AllVid would hav emerged if the government has not forced cable cards on cable companies. AllVid would still be a pipe dream and you will still be using infrared blasters? Rememeber those! The cablecard technology is very good. The fact that 7 years later the cableco's still don't train their people how to install them is not Tivo's or the government faults.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

The problem is TiVo is still colon crawling the cable co, the very same entities who many on this forum (as I do) believe worked against TiVo in the first place starting with the poorly designed and implemented CableCard. And what has this continued sought after relationship with the cable cos and DirecTV brought TiVo? Comcast saying, "well no Comcast with TiVo after all, but we'll let you access our VOD, and while we at Comcast have wasted your time and R&D $$, TiVo, and given you false hope, we've, at Comcast, went ahead and developed Xfinity. Buh-buy TiVo. Here;s that bone for you called VOD access on Premiers."

And DirecTV has been jerking TiVo's chains for YEARS and now seems more realistically like a 1st quarter 2012 release of an old, S3 hobbled TiVo experience on crappy hardware (those old, troublesome DirecTV DVR's) that is easily inferior to the retail Premiere whilst Mikey White at DirecTV went ahead and developed the HR24 that seems to finally satisfy his subscribers---and, oh, it does all the neat things today's (not 2006's) subscribers want such as multi-room DVR/streaming and many DirecTV on-line content, that the forthcoming DirecTiVo won't do.

However, at the same time, Tom Rogers' options are none. TiVo really is a chess piece with only one possible move: trying to get something to work with MSO's because the retail end is . . . well, ENDING. Still, it leaves a very sour taste to think that TiVo has no choice but to deal with those MSO's who seem to have done all they can to keep TiVo OUT of their systems while playing along just so TiVo won't sue them as TiVo has Echostar/Dish (Charlie seems to have gotten the settlement HE wanted: lifetime, forever and ever rights to TiVo patents he can do whatever he wants at a price far less than the "gun to the head" scenario TiVo could have gotten, and for LICENSING the patents ONLY just because TiVo couldn't afford to take time to take this all the way and come out very far ahead of what it got from the settlement) Verizon and AT&T. TiVo's business model was doomed from day one: TiVo was never an MVPD, who could afford to take losses on an DVR and get the money back on the subscription to channel packages. I suppose this really was a chess game with the inevitable outcome of poor TiVo being check-mated. Too bad because TiVo is, overall, a good product and we are better off having at least the pricey option, but hardly competition. It would be nice if TiVo makes it out of this mess, but I'm not optimistic on that.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I guess I will make one more comment about the general cable card/tuning adapter debacle. That comment is that cable cards were not just for TiVo. 

If anyone has any doubts about how costly and bad the whole process is just ask your self where are all the other cable card devices? How many new TVs build in the ability to use cable cards? Or blu-ray players? Or streaming devices? Or receivers? The answer: Pretty much none. Cable cards are nearly a 100% failure for the consumer and nearly a 100% success for the cable companies. The satellite companies did even better they got themselves exempted and didn't even have to participate in the deception at all. 

The FCC and consumers got taken and most people know it.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> I guess I will make one more comment about the general cable card/tuning adapter debacle. That comment is that cable cards were not just for TiVo.
> 
> If anyone has any doubts about how costly and bad the whole process is just ask your self where are all the other cable card devices? How many new TVs build in the ability to use cable cards? Or blu-ray players? Or streaming devices? Or receivers? The answer: Pretty much none. Cable cards are nearly a 100% failure for the consumer and nearly a 100% success for the cable companies. The satellite companies did even better they got themselves exempted and didn't even have to participate in the deception at all.
> 
> The FCC and consumers got taken and most people know it.


Very well said! and... multiply by 2X anything you've said about CableCard's with respect to Tuning Adapters! At least CableCards can be embedded inside the retail device.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

seattlewendell said:


> You're dreaming if you think that AllVid would hav emerged if the government has not forced cable cards on cable companies. AllVid would still be a pipe dream and you will still be using infrared blasters? Rememeber those! The cablecard technology is very good. The fact that 7 years later the cableco's still don't train their people how to install them is not Tivo's or the government faults.


AllVid is still a pipe dream, because the FCC has done nothing other than posting the notice about it. There's no way in Hades it's going to see the light of day by the end of next year, which was the proposed deadline. The MVPDs are all fighting it tooth and nail, same as with Cablecard.

Bottom line is that none of them ever wanted open access to their programming. They all want to control the end user experience, which usually means stupid stuff like not allowing consumers to delete channels in the guide that are not in their package.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

TiVoStephen said:


> As you saw in this report, at times it can be a challenge obtaining a CableCARD. This is absolutely something we have been aware of, and we are very pleased that as of August 1, 2011, all cable providers are mandated by the FCC to allow subscribers the option of a hassle-free, no charge self-install of the cable card.


That's only mandated if they let customers self-install their boxes. I don't know of any that don't, but I'm sure there are some small ones that roll techs for new installs.

I think the new Comcast rules on self-install and credits for cards are a much-needed step in the right direction, but they're still doing it half-assed because you can't do a simple activation over the web, and there's no posted national Cablecard activation line that I've seen. They want you to call the usual Comcast help line and talk to CSRs that are almost always clueless about cards.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

seattlewendell said:


> You're dreaming if you think that AllVid would hav emerged if the government has not forced cable cards on cable companies. AllVid would still be a pipe dream and you will still be using infrared blasters? Rememeber those! The cablecard technology is very good. The fact that 7 years later the cableco's still don't train their people how to install them is not Tivo's or the government faults.


I should not have mentioned AllVid at all as it confuses my basic point, which is we would be better off now (after 7 years as you say) if the FCC had not forced CableCARD and Tuning Adapters on us. We would be closer to some other solution(s), perhaps Internet-based or perhaps something neither you nor I have even thought of.

Practically speaking what does it matter whose fault the CableCARD installation problems are? After 7 years, they haven't gone away so assigning blame isn't helping.

Government agencies fail big when they try to guide the direction of technology evolution. They should just do the minimum amount of regulation needed to protect citizens from fraud.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

TiVoStephen said:


> Out of curiosity, have you or someone you know had similar experiences since the FCC announced this mandate in October 2010? We would like to hear your story.


Just as a quick and dirty check, here are all the threads since then where I've recommended that someone complain to the FCC about CableCARD or tuning adapter issues since October.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468750
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468522
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=464237
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=460051


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

nrc said:


> Just as a quick and dirty check, here are all the threads since then where I've recommended that someone complain to the FCC about CableCARD or tuning adapter issues since October.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468750
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468522
> ...


I've submitted multiple complaints to the FCC mostly about Tuning Adapter issues on Bright House Networks (BHN) (Tampa, FL). The CableCards are very stable right now on BHN and the stability of the TA is improving.

BHN is another cable provider that tries to persuade a caller to use their in-house DVR in order to receive all of their digital services.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> At the time of the SD to HD conversion there was no viable hardware solution to recording a HD stream. So if they were going to provide a HD solution they had to go with cable cards. At this point in time it might be viable to record an analog HD stream (component outputs) but the digital stream (HDMI) is not recordable due to licensing restrictions.
> 
> Thanks,


it's been some time since i paid attention- but at one point cable companies were required to provide firewire outputs on their boxes. And if i recall there is a way to capture that stream. So tivo wanted to be bothered, they could probably come up with some blaster approach that records firewire.

BUT- I wouldn't say blasters are any solution.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dlfl said:


> ...
> But that's an unreasonable, inefficient and costly requirement that even I as a TiVo user would not wish on the Cable cos. It probably costs 10 (maybe 100) times as much to do it with a truck roll as at the factory, and they install more than 100 of their boxes for every TiVo installation.
> ...


who says there should be s tupid truck roll to install a cablecard?

Just like now that there are legally mandated user install options, all cable boxes should have the same procedure (whatever it may be). I dont know if there is an 800 number to call or website for most providers to do a user install- but there's no reason a new renter shouldn't be handed a box and an unattached card and have to make the same phone call or hit the web page that a tivo user has to.

well actually as you point out that's stupid, but apparently cable needs to be 'punished' and made to take their own medicine in order to play nice with 3rd parties.

You think allvid is going to change anything? Maybe a little- but cable wants control plane and simple, and while the pessimists think they actively sabotage others, at a minimum they clearly they have zero incentive to spend the effort to help 3rd parties.

I've said many times over again- think of the MILLIONS (maybe billions?) cable could save if they didn't have to buy any boxes to rent- imagine if they got every tv, dvr, blue ray player, etc to come with a cablecard slot? They'd have effectively made all the CE company's and consumers subsidize their infrastructure. Yet they haven't ever made an effort to do it, because it's so much "better" for them in their estimations to be in complete control of whole situation.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

TiVoStephen said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> As you saw in this report, at times it can be a challenge obtaining a CableCARD. This is absolutely something we have been aware of, and we are very pleased that as of August 1, 2011, all cable providers are mandated by the FCC to allow subscribers the option of a hassle-free, no charge self-install of the cable card.
> 
> ...


I had to change a drive in a TP (not TiVos fault) and Comcast Hartford CT connected me with the advance Comcast group that let me read them the information to re-active the cable card in that TiVo, no truck roll. My question is why can't the cable card be paired to the TP hardware without the hard drive being any part of it ? I don't get what extra safety anybody gets by making a new hard drive part of the cable card setup. I know a copy of a working hard drive does not change the cable card operation, only when you do a C&D all.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dlfl said:


> I should not have mentioned AllVid at all as it confuses my basic point, which is we would be better off now (after 7 years as you say) if the FCC had not forced CableCARD and Tuning Adapters on us. We would be closer to some other solution(s), perhaps Internet-based or perhaps something neither you nor I have even thought of.
> 
> Practically speaking what does it matter whose fault the CableCARD installation problems are? After 7 years, they haven't gone away so assigning blame isn't helping.
> 
> Government agencies fail big when they try to guide the direction of technology evolution. They should just do the minimum amount of regulation needed to protect citizens from fraud.


interesting theory- and it's actually been 15 years that nothing good has happened since the 1996 telecommunications act where congress mandated that the FCC get involved. So clearly the approach they tried didn't work at all. Major waste of time, money, and resources. I love my tivo, but cable could have saved a huge pile of money by keeping the status quo and paying tivo and the other couple cablecard players half the millions they have spend implementing and fighting 3rd party devices.

But exactly what market forces are working to force cable to want to give up control of the whole shabang? DBS hasn't been under the same "thumb" as cable yet both surviving players have moved exactly the opposite of open systems. Both have moved away from numerous CE partners selling boxes to an all rental market like cable wants. So left unchecked without FCC intervention the market apparently is going the exact opposite of an open ALLVID approach.

I dont really have any answers myself- just admiring the huge mess that exists today that doesn't seem to have any easy fix that anyone is going to implement.


----------



## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

dlfl said:


> I agree with what you say here but I think the lack of separable encryption would have created pent up consumer demand that might have spurred developments that might have been better than what we got.
> 
> But that "especially when no tuning adapter is needed" is a big condition. I've actually had no problems with my CableCARDs at all but my TA has more than made up for it. And it's not the TA device itself, it's the signals (missing or incorrect) that Time Warner sends to it. More systems are going SDV all the time.
> 
> ...


Maybe you're right that there would have been pent-up demand - but to be honest, cable and DBS cos are doing a better job, slowly but surely, of placating customers. For every Navigator or Sara interface, there's a HR24 out there nowadays, or that one Xfinity box. I agree with your basic premise, which is that customers would become more demanding - but I think the cablecos have, as you say, managed and held off the FCC to gain enough time to make their own offerings slowly better to address that. Of course, Tivo's slowed pace of innovation has helped on that front too.

Re: the FCC being upset - the cablecos DO tend to pay attention when the FCC says "you're violating our order." Sure, self-install issues will arise, especially at first, but the general shift has to be in the right direction, after all - it almost can't help it.

Re: on-premises installation of Cablecard vs. at the warehouse: I think the issues with cost and time are *of the cableco's own making*. Fundamentally, calling in to activate a Cablecard shouldn't be any different than calling in to activate a cable box, which they already have to do (add it to your account, read cable modem MAC #, etc, etc.) - it's just that their own lack of training, providing bad equipment (see the guys throwing bad CC's back in the bins, etc) and general lack of care have made Cablecard installs more complicated. If EVERY installer did them, they would gosh darn quick make the process just like a cable box / cable modem install, complete with training the CSR's. So I'm not convinced that extra cost / time would really ensue, once they actually got training and providing good hardware taken care of. In the short term, yes, I'll cede your argument - but in the long term? I think mandatory on-premises cablecard installation would quickly take the fight out of the cableco's resistance to Cablecard, once they had no other alternative / no shortcut to make it easier for themselves.

I do think you're right about "that guy" being the result of lack of care from the top down. I'm sure some of "that guy's" duties will just shift to whoever they have you call for Cablecard activation now, but in that situation the customer already HAS a Cablecard and is less likely to be scared off by some klutz. It's also hard to underestimate how much people HATE waiting for the cable guy / taking unpaid time off work / etc etc. BTW one of my FEARS about the self-installs is actually that they'll just give you one card, then it won't work and you have to swap it. There's been many many stories about how installers take several cards out, find one that works, and then throw the "non-working" ones RIGHT BACK IN THE BIN at the warehouse.

Anyway, we'll have to see what Allvid brings - if it ever shows up. Just the fact that the cablecos are fighting it tooth and nail makes me think it's a good idea for consumers who want choice and options available. 

Glad to have an intelligent, reasoned discussion about this with you, dlfl! 

slowbiscuit:

You mentioned August 1st, 2011 only being the case for companies that already allowed some self-installs - that's true, but on I think it's November 1st, 2011, ALL companies will be required to allow them. The big ones just either already allowed some self-installs, or they want to go ahead and get this done. I believe any company issuing Cablecards that comes under the FCC's jurisdiction is required to allow free self-installs as of November 1st, 2011, though I haven't read the Order in awhile, I'm pretty sure I'm remembering the gist correctly.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> interesting theory- and it's actually been 15 years that nothing good has happened since the 1996 telecommunications act where congress mandated that the FCC get involved. So clearly the approach they tried didn't work at all. Major waste of time, money, and resources. I love my tivo, but cable could have saved a huge pile of money by keeping the status quo and paying tivo and the other couple cablecard players half the millions they have spend implementing and fighting 3rd party devices.
> 
> But exactly what market forces are working to force cable to want to give up control of the whole shabang? DBS hasn't been under the same "thumb" as cable yet both surviving players have moved exactly the opposite of open systems. Both have moved away from numerous CE partners selling boxes to an all rental market like cable wants. So left unchecked without FCC intervention the market apparently is going the exact opposite of an open ALLVID approach.
> 
> I dont really have any answers myself- just admiring the huge mess that exists today that doesn't seem to have any easy fix that anyone is going to implement.


Actually the "market" can say very little about the whole thing.

For "market" to actually work there has to be enough competition so that the buyers wishes are at least considered by the producers.

There would have to be at least 4-5 companies with similar products/service that you could pick from before the consumers wishes would really be considered.

In any industry that actually has sufficient competition for the market to work properly any company that had consumer satisfaction ratings similar to many cable companies would have already gone out of business long ago.

And I am guessing it would be even worse without the FCC monitoring the cable industry.

Thanks,


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> I think the new Comcast rules on self-install and credits for cards are a much-needed step in the right direction, but they're still doing it half-assed because you can't do a simple activation over the web, and there's no posted national Cablecard activation line that I've seen. They want you to call the usual Comcast help line and talk to CSRs that are almost always clueless about cards.


Our Comcast office has been handing out cards for self-installs for quite a while. Which does absolutely no good when your card is not provisioned correctly, and you can't get the right person on the phone to pair the cards (or who could tell you that the office has given you out a card provisioned for a two-way device).

I've just talked a friend into getting a TiVoHD from a friend of his. But I'm prepared to buy it from him if things don't go well with Comcast where he is.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Are there any other devices currently being made that use cable card? I can't think of one.


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## jdmass (Dec 1, 2002)

TiVoStephen said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> As you saw in this report, at times it can be a challenge obtaining a CableCARD. This is absolutely something we have been aware of, and we are very pleased that as of August 1, 2011, all cable providers are mandated by the FCC to allow subscribers the option of a hassle-free, no charge self-install of the cable card.
> 
> ...


In addition to the cable card hassle is now the requirement (read: additional obstacle) for a Tuning Adapter to receive the full complement of stations. Out of curiosity, is there any explicit or implied language in the FCC directive relating to Tuning Adapters. I can envision a cable company giving you the cable card but still requiring a truck roll for the TA leading to a net result of no improvement.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

jdmass said:


> In addition to the cable card hassle is now the requirement (read: additional obstacle) for a Tuning Adapter to receive the full complement of stations. Out of curiosity, is there any explicit or implied language in the FCC directive relating to Tuning Adapters. I can envision a cable company giving you the cable card but still requiring a truck roll for the TA leading to a net result of no improvement.


There is no specific language that I could find related to self-install of Tuning Adapters but I think the FCC's intent is clear that the CableCard / Tuning Adapter combination must be self-installable by August 1st for those providers that provide a self-install option for their other leased set top boxes. There is a requirement that the Tuning Adapter's support a minimum of four channels by August 1st.


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## gconnery (Mar 31, 2006)

Seems to me the NYTimes article is somewhat typical. I've had a bunch of Tivo's with cable cards installed by Comcast and its always frustrating. Certainly makes me avoid updating to a new Tivo if I can avoid it.

Generally I've only required one visit, but those visits are always fraught with tension. The guys take NO care reading out the long strings of numbers to the person on the other end, so often that results in a dead cable card. They generally don't bring more than one, so that can be a problem. They generally don't know the difference between the multistream cards and the single streams, though that's now gone away. Often after they leave something will happen and a channel will disappear. A chat with Comcast customer service and things will work again after a reset. 

A recent cable card install had the very knowledgeable guy up and running in an hour or so, but sometime after he left BOTH of the Tivo's in my house stopped working. Presumably they crossed the numbers between the units or something. No amount of IM'ing with customer service over many days resolved the issue, and another truck role was eventually required. They got VERY testy with me about this being my fault until I started playing social networking games on twitter and stuff with comcast cares and then it was suddenly no problem. 

And that's in a town with relatively knowledgeable guys and no SDV/TA's. Sucks.

We'll see if self-installs make it any better.

And by the way you're misquoting the FCC order. The order is that if the cableco allows ANY self-installs then they must allow cable cards to be self-installed. I presume if they don't allow any self installs then they can still require a truck roll.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> Are there any other devices currently being made that use cable card? I can't think of one.


there's some pc tuner options. But stand alone STB's - not that I'm aware of.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

gconnery said:


> The order is that if the cableco allows ANY self-installs then they must allow cable cards to be self-installed. I presume if they don't allow any self installs then they can still require a truck roll.


The order says, and I'm directly quoting with paraphrasing for readability/shortening (see page 15 of the FCC Order 10-181A1):

- if a cable co allows any subscriber to do any self install of a cable modem or set-top box, they have nine months to implement self-install of cablecards

- if a cable co does not allow ANY self-installation whatsoever, they have twelve months to implement self-install of cablecards.

Also important to note is that the FCC specifically "require(s) cable operators to inform their subscribers about the self-installation option when they request Cablecards"

There's also a requirement that if the customer DOES request a truck roll, that the installer show up with at least the number of Cablecards requested by the customer, and that they are in good working order - this is intended to solve the issue of multiple appointments, techs with no cards, techs with bad cards, etc. We'll see if it really happens - they can probably keep doing what they're doing and claim they're "really trying hard on this." 

The August 1st date is included in the amendment to section 76.1205 regarding CableCard support, on page 45-47 of the abovementioned Order. November 1, 2011 is the required date, included in the same amendment, for those companies that did not already allow some self-install options as described above. In short, on November 1, 2011, there will be no providers to speak of who will not be required to allow Cablecard self-installs.

The only exceptions would be those who do *not* qualify as multichannel video programming providers subject to Section 76.1204(a)(1). In short, if they offer a Cablecard, they're already subject to that requirement, so they will be offering self-installs, either on August 1st or November 1st.

*
Bottom line, tl;dr version: your provider MAY (depending on specifics) offer self-installs on August 1, but they DEFINITELY MUST on November 1 - and in either case, must make customers aware of the self-install option.*


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## minimeh (Jun 20, 2011)

aadam101 said:


> Are there any other devices currently being made that use cable card? I can't think of one.


The Moxi DVR uses a cable card.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

minimeh said:


> The Moxi DVR uses a cable card.


And Im on cable card #4 on that box. Every time TWC sends down a cable card firmware update, it frys itself and a truck roll is required.

Good times


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

You can't blame the cablecos for wanting to kill all threats and competitors. It's business.

But you can blame TiVo's top Management for being naive, "the naive assumption that things can only get better if you lay down with the snake"; "like a naive simple creature it acted with wide friendly eyes so eager to believe appearances"; "a child's naive ignorance of life's dangers"

It is a lesson as old as the AESOP'S FABLES INVOLVING SNAKES and yet even with the snake's venom in its blood the lesson shows no sign of being learned but reveals this company's continued ignorance of the business world and arrogance towards it costumers needs.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

KungFuCow said:


> And Im on cable card #4 on that box. Every time TWC sends down a cable card firmware update, it frys itself and a truck roll is required.
> 
> Good times


So, is the grass still greener over there?


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

aadam101 said:


> Are there any other devices currently being made that use cable card? I can't think of one.


The Centon PC card does. As does every major cable company box. This thing uses them as well http://www.amd.com/us/products/pctv/tv-wonder-tuners/Pages/digital-cable-tuner.aspx

As does every major cable company box- which just goes to show that they could make it much easier on us TiVo folks if they wanted to. Absent a true level playing field, they have no incentive.


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## minimeh (Jun 20, 2011)

KungFuCow said:


> And Im on cable card #4 on that box. Every time TWC sends down a cable card firmware update, it frys itself and a truck roll is required.


Ouch. I haven't had that experience. Been using 1 cable card for the 2+ years I've had the Moxi.



steve614 said:


> So, is the grass still greener over there?


Not speaking for KungFuCow of course, but in my opinion the TP grass is much greener than the Moxi grass.

Than again, a cow is probably the better judge.


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

aadam101 said:


> You can blame the CC all you want. It is still Tivo's problem in the end. It's driving people away.


I almost bailed on Tivo this January and was really hesitant to even get involved with getting one (I had 3 DirecTivos at one point. 2 HDs and 1SD). I knew it would be a hassle with my cable co (Cablevision).

And it was. 2 appointments and a failed self install and a fruitless 2nd trip to a Cable Company store they finally got it working. I get it. It's the Cable company stone walling and being incompetent. I still had to take time off from work one appointment was over the weekend if IRC). It has some issues (a few missing channels some stuttering on some channels when we record). I am not going to waste any more time or effort on it as long as it works this well.

I stuck with the Cablevision for another year or so (just about to sign a years lease). Next year we hope to move and when we do hopefully to place that can also get FIOS. Our building can not but most in the area CAN.

This way at least I have two options. I will probably keep my Tivo active if I go with FIOS but who knows. My parents have their PVR and for me it is good enough. Current promotion is free multi room PVR for free. Certainly something to consider if available when I sign up.


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> So do you complain to the air line you are flying on when the TSA makes you wait in a long line, feels you up, and makes your flying experience suck?


Do I blame the airlines? No. And I don't really have any other option if I need to get somewhere quickly.

I do have other options for a PVR. I have two (not counting building my own). I can use the cable co provided POS or Tivo.

I will say if I had to go through 4 appointments to get it working I wouldn't have. I would have sold it to someone here or on Ebay. Add to the frustration the first one (From Woot refurbished) died in between Cable Co appointments. Not sure how Tivo isn't responsible for that.


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## sirfracas (Apr 5, 2006)

lessd said:


> complain to the FCC !! The average cable customer that wants a DVR does not want to go through this trouble no matter who fault it is, TiVos is the one that should be doing the complaining as they are having the loss of business as a result of these type of cable co problems. Most of my friends now just take the cable co DVR and have no problems that the cable co can't solve, and they don't call me.


Let me echo this; complain to the FCC. Comcast Atlanta insisted on incorrectly charging me for the two multi-card cable cards I had. It wasn't until I filed a complaint with the FCC did I get any sort of response from Comcast.

If you take no for an answer and go away mad, they win. It's good to be a monopoly.


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## sirfracas (Apr 5, 2006)

dlfl said:


> I don't think we can afford that. One of the main reasons (just one, there are others) we have a $14 Billion national debt is having government do everything someone thinks they should do. I have to wonder if we wouldn't be in an overall better situation now if the FCC had not forced the cable cos to do CableCARDs and Tuning Adapters, and just let market forces work. Who knows? Maybe something resembling AllVid would already have emerged?


Let's not go here. Lack of government oversight and the removal of rules governing how the banks operate led to the Wall Street melt down we are all paying for right now.

The $14 billion in national debt is mostly due to two unfunded wars and nearsighted tax breaks no one needed.

The Cuyohoga River of 1969 is a good example of letting the market sort things out.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

sirfracas said:


> Let's not go here. Lack of government oversight and the removal of rules governing how the banks operate led to the Wall Street melt down we are all paying for right now.
> 
> The $14 billion in national debt is mostly due to two unfunded wars and nearsighted tax breaks no one needed.
> 
> The Cuyohoga River of 1969 is a good example of letting the market sort things out.


Please don't get political. This thread will get locked.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Wouldn't it be a great service to the community members if the designers of TiVo Community Forum designed an easy submit complaint button feature generating our complaint via editable template going directly to the FCC or in cases of enabling legislation our Senators and Congress when legislation results in what is allowed not allowed in our own home? 

If necessary I would be willing to make donations to TiVo Community Forum for that feature open or closed to the rest of the Forum.

We need to take this TiVo Community Forum to the next instinctive elevation, stop waiting for the government to come here. We must take our concerns directly to them using our numbers. Organizations like the ones we complain about are not waiting for the government to come to them. These organizations we complain about are already there in government offices complaining about how they need protection from citizen choice because we are absent and not there to be heard.

Again,wouldn't it be a great service to the community members if the designers of TiVo Community Forum could design an easy submit complaint button?


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

sirfracas said:


> Let's not go here. Lack of government oversight and the removal of rules governing how the banks operate led to the Wall Street melt down we are all paying for right now.
> 
> The $14 billion in national debt is mostly due to two unfunded wars and nearsighted tax breaks no one needed.
> 
> The Cuyohoga River of 1969 is a good example of letting the market sort things out.


sirfracas,

Both you and dlfl understate the problem. The debt is $14 *trillion*. This is a number so big that neither of you noticed that you were addressing only one-thousandth of the problem.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

JimboG said:


> sirfracas,
> 
> Both you and dlfl understate the problem. The debt is $14 *trillion*. This is a number so big that neither of you noticed that you were addressing only one-thousandth of the problem.


The national debt ihas nothing to do with the NYT blog about TiVo. Please done make the mods lock this thread.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

aadam101 said:


> Please don't get political. This thread will get locked.


Valid concern but .... some of us think there is a fairly direct link between politics and the debatable actions of the FCC that have had great impact on TiVo, including the limitations discussed in the blog referenced in the original post. Discussing what the FCC should or should not do, or have done, seems relevant to the topic IMHO.

I don't think it's any worse than the endless repetitive arguments between proponents and detractors of HTPC systems (vs. TiVo) that end up dominating some other threads in this forum.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

steve614 said:


> So, is the grass still greener over there?


The grass is dead on both sides pretty much.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Valid concern but .... some of us think there is a fairly direct link between politics and the debatable actions of the FCC that have had great impact on TiVo, including the limitations discussed in the blog referenced in the original post. Discussing what the FCC should or should not do, or have done, seems relevant to the topic IMHO.
> 
> I don't think it's any worse than the endless repetitive arguments between proponents and detractors of HTPC systems (vs. TiVo) that end up dominating some other threads in this forum.


The FCC is one thing. It's related to Tivo. Correlating the national debt to Tivo is quite a stretch.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Joe3 said:


> We need to take this TiVo Community Forum to the next instinctive elevation, stop waiting for the government to come here. We must take our concerns directly to them using our numbers.


What numbers? That is ultimately the problem. And with the numbers shrinking every quarter, pretty soon there won't anyone who cares about it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

dlfl said:


> I should not have mentioned AllVid at all as it confuses my basic point, which is we would be better off now (after 7 years as you say) if the FCC had not forced CableCARD and Tuning Adapters on us. We would be closer to some other solution(s), perhaps Internet-based or perhaps something neither you nor I have even thought of..............


"Closer to some other soultion"? Then what would I have been using for the last 4.5+ years. Without cable cards I would have been forced to use the cable companies atrocious offerings. Or use an even more atrocious method of recording from analog outputs.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dlfl said:


> I should not have mentioned AllVid at all as it confuses my basic point, which is we would be better off now (after 7 years as you say) if the FCC had not forced CableCARD and Tuning Adapters on us. We would be closer to some other solution(s), perhaps Internet-based or perhaps something neither you nor I have even thought of.
> 
> Practically speaking what does it matter whose fault the CableCARD installation problems are? After 7 years, they haven't gone away so assigning blame isn't helping.
> 
> Government agencies fail big when they try to guide the direction of technology evolution. They should just do the minimum amount of regulation needed to protect citizens from fraud.


so how would we be better off? By watching the broadcast provider have a monopoly on digital/HD recording - maybe waiting for TiVo to put out DVR that could record from component output and control 2 cable set top boxes 

Also without the FCC pushing it do you think the cbale providers would be worried about anything at all like ALLVID? NOPE!. We would still get the download stuff and iPad apps from broadcast providers as they compete with each other but would be completely stuck with their DVR provision as well and have to do a wholesale swap out to change providers.

PS - it was cable companies that pushed out half working cable cards. The FCC actually sat back and said the cable companies would be best able to provide a technical solution, and we got cable cards. What the FCC actually needs to do is get way more involved and get some independent 3rd party standards groups to tackle the problem


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

aadam101 said:


> I don't think Tivo was forced into cable cards. The old series 2 units used the cable box and an IR blaster just fine. I realize it's not the most elegant solution but neither is a cable card that doesn't work.


I have never heard of anyone not eventually being able to get a cable card to work - and frankly I hate the frankenstein setup that we used with our S2 units.

I have three current TiVo's all with cable cards. I was a very early adopter of the S3 and paid a premium price for the privilege.

When the tech came out to install the cablecards in my S3 the first guy spent hours trying to make it work and finally complained that the cards had to be bad and would have to bring a couple more out. Fios then sent a second (more experienced) guy out and he was able to do the install pretty quickly.

When the tech came out to install the cards in my HD  The tech had to call for advice but in the end the install was relatively uneventful.

When the tech came out to install the cards in my Premier, the tech jumped right into the install without any hesitation No problems at all.

Even with a little drama early on, I am extremely happy that the cablecards have eliminated that garbage IR blaster setup.


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## jefny (Feb 13, 2008)

I think the picture is different with Verizon FIOS and cable cards. Ever since I switched to FIOS my experience with their technicians is that they know cable cards well and easily install them. In fact the last time I installed a cablecard for a replacement TIVO HD they (FIOS) has me do it myself.

They walked me through the process and finished installation by sending a signal from their home office. The install went well and I was up and running in a half an hour.

Jefny


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

aadam101 said:


> The FCC is one thing. It's related to Tivo. Correlating the national debt to Tivo is quite a stretch.





ZeoTiVo said:


> ........ What the FCC actually needs to do is get way more involved and get some independent 3rd party standards groups to tackle the problem


I probably would favor the FCC getting less involved but when it does get involved, it needs the horsepower to better understand technical aspects and to seriously enforce whatever rules it sets. The CableCARD and TA implementation has suffered in both those areas. However such horsepower means a lot more money (assuming the money could actually be used correctly to realize the required horsepower). Given our national debt, what chance could there be for that additional funding?

Hmm... looks like there IS a correlation between the national debt and TiVo (unless you don't believe the FCC affects TiVo).


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

One thing I remember from my Verizon Cable Card install is that the guy was convinced he wouldn't be able to get the card to work unless I was using the Verizon router. He had to make a phone call or two in order to set it up without the Verizon router. 

I connect via ethernet from the ONT directly to my own router. 
The Verizon router just didn't cut it for my needs. (huge house)


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

dlfl said:


> I probably would favor the FCC getting less involved but when it does get involved, it needs the horsepower to better understand technical aspects and to seriously enforce whatever rules it sets. The CableCARD and TA implementation has suffered in both those areas. However such horsepower means a lot more money (assuming the money could actually be used correctly to realize the required horsepower). Given our national debt, what chance could there be for that additional funding?
> 
> Hmm... looks like there IS a correlation between the national debt and TiVo (unless you don't believe the FCC affects TiVo).


If the FCC was less or not involved cable would be just like Satellite a 100% closed system.

The amount of money the FCC needs to regulate the cable/Satellite industry is a rounding error compared to the over all budget and/or the National Debt. What the Government is willing to spend money on has nothing to do with the size of the annual budget or the National Debt, it is all about who paid who.

Thanks,


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## Corran Horn (Feb 12, 2002)

It's disappointing that years and years later the cable companies still have personnel that are largely clueless about cablecards and Tivo.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> If the FCC was less or not involved cable would be just like Satellite a 100% closed system.


And there are posters here claiming Dish offers a very nice DVR. How did that happen without FCC intervention? 

Edit: This post in another thread is quite apropo.



atmuscarella said:


> The amount of money the FCC needs to regulate the cable/Satellite industry is a rounding error compared to the over all budget and/or the National Debt. What the Government is willing to spend money on has nothing to do with the size of the annual budget or the National Debt, it is all about who paid who.
> .......,


Almost every item added to the Federal budget is rationalized this way, i.e., this is something really good that we need and it's such a tiiny amount relative to the overall budget. And we end up borrowing 40+% of every dollar we spend while taking tax revenues at a record high 25% of GDP.

I'm curious about your "who paid who" comment. Are you implying outright corruption (bribes), or the more subtle methods such as campaign contributions and contract awards (always to the most deserving bidder, of course!) ?


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

dlfl said:


> And there are posters here claiming Dish offers a very nice DVR. How did that happen without FCC intervention?


Competition? For those not willing / able to put up a dish many have one other choice. Their local cable co. Don't like their equipment too bad. Get a Tivo, cablecard and tuning adapter and hope they can get it to work after a few appointments. Hope it continues to work.

For those willing and able to put up a dish they can pick between DirecTV and Dish. Dish seems to be cheaper every time I look but for sports fans DirecTV seems better. And when I was a DirecTV customer (5 years ago give or take) the two DirectTivo offerings (HD and SD) where better then the Dish PVR which at the time sucked.

So unless you were looking to pay the least and weren't too fussy there was no reason to go with Dish.

Till FIOS started seriously rolling out here you had one choice for Cable TV like service.

Even now I am in a town serviced by FIOS but my building is not and probably won't be anytime soon. Down the road in any direction? You can get FIOS.

Previous town I lived in. No FIOS TV.

Anytime there is no competition there isn't much incentive for a company to improve their product.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

dlfl said:


> And there are posters here claiming Dish offers a very nice DVR. How did that happen without FCC intervention?
> 
> Edit: This post in another thread is quite apropo.


No real disagreement with the Sat DVRs. I had a Dish 510 years ago (which work as well as it did because they stole TiVos tech) that was fine. Fully closed systems do work they just entrap consumers and reduce competition. A big part of the vision with an open system was even more competition by removing hardware as a way to keep people in individual closed systems.

Unfortunately what we ended up with was maybe the worst of both systems. Satellite companies got to be closed and use their equipment to compete with cable and each other. Cable became half a** open forcing the cable companies to spend money while not creating the competition that was envisioned.



dlfl said:


> Almost every item added to the Federal budget is rationalized this way, i.e., this is something really good that we need and it's such a tiiny amount relative to the overall budget. And we end up borrowing 40+% of every dollar we spend while taking tax revenues at a record high 25% of GDP.
> 
> I'm curious about your "who paid who" comment. Are you implying outright corruption (bribes), or the more subtle methods such as campaign contributions and contract awards (always to the most deserving bidder, of course!) ?


First just for the record tax revenues are at a 50+ year low and are now less than 15% of GDP, spending is what is at a 50+ year high, being something north of 24% of GDP.

But to answer your "who paid who" questions. For at least 100 years politics has been about money and power. Power in politics comes from money and those who pay/provide the money write the legislation and control how the Government spends money. That is why the Government never spends less or collects all that it spends - the people/groups providing the power (the money) to politicians don't want less spending or balanced budgets. Too the victor goes the spoils is very real in our political system.

I do agree with those who would like us to stop discussing politics on this forum so lets stop - it rarely does anything anyways.

Thanks,


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> No real disagreement with the Sat DVRs. I had a Dish 510 years ago (which work as well as it did because they stole TiVos tech) that was fine. Fully closed systems do work they just entrap consumers and reduce competition. A big part of the vision with an open system was even more competition by removing hardware as a way to keep people in individual closed systems.
> 
> Unfortunately what we ended up with was maybe the worst of both systems. Satellite companies got to be closed and use their equipment to compete with cable and each other. Cable became half a** open forcing the cable companies to spend money while not creating the competition that was envisioned.


A pretty good example of why I tend to favor less government involvement. 


atmuscarella said:


> First just for the record tax revenues are at a 50+ year low and are now less than 15% of GDP, spending is what is at a 50+ year high, being something north of 24% of GDP.


I stand corrected. Here is an excellent web page for finding such statistics BTW: http://www.deptofnumbers.com/misc/debt-revenue-and-expenditures-as-a-fraction-of-gdp/
It's puzzling to me how tax revenues as % of GDP fluctuate so much, between 15% and 20% over the last ten years. Variations in tax rates don't seem to explain it. It fell from 19.98% in 2007Q2 to 16.08% in 2010Q1, less than three years apart. Obviously it correlates with the recession but it suggests our tax base isn't linked to GDP very well. (In other words there are major sectors of our economy that are being taxed relatively little.) 


atmuscarella said:


> But to answer your "who paid who" questions. For at least 100 years politics has been about money and power. Power in politics comes from money and those who pay/provide the money write the legislation and control how the Government spends money. That is why the Government never spends less or collects all that it spends - the people/groups providing the power (the money) to politicians don't want less spending or balanced budgets. Too the victor goes the spoils is very real in our political system.


Whatever is going on has probably been going on as long as politics has existed. There is no better system of government than ours. If we don't like the outcome it's up to us to fix it by paying attention to the quality and records of candidates rather than the 30 sec. negative ads all that money buys.


atmuscarella said:


> I do agree with those who would like us to stop discussing politics on this forum so lets stop - it rarely does anything anyways. ...


OK, I will if you (and others) will.


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## macjeepster (Sep 2, 2007)

I guess I was lucky. The Time-Warner tech had real problems getting the cable card to work on my Premiere. He spent at least 3 hours trying several cards and talking with tech support on the phone. They even sent a second guy to drop down a new line from the pole, which gave me a slightly better signal, but didn't solve the problem. 
In the end, they got it working and it's been great for several months (and my Internet's pretty speedy, too).


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/61067732?access_key=key-1t5z2ghps0uplwjxm7qk


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

sbiller said:


> http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/61067732?access_key=key-1t5z2ghps0uplwjxm7qk


Who are the other people on page 3 that this letter was sent to? How did they get this letter from the FCC?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

I believe that those are FCC commissioners. All communications to the FCC related to regulations are made available to the public through the Electronic Comment Filing System.

The letter can be found ere in the proceedings related to CableCARD regulations:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/proceeding/view?name=97-80


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

jcondon said:


> Anytime there is no competition there isn't much incentive for a company to improve their product.


I agree. It's Business 101. I can't understand why nobody at Tivo knows this. Tivo has a TON of competition and they just keep making their product worse.


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## macjeepster (Sep 2, 2007)

macjeepster said:


> I guess I was lucky. The Time-Warner tech had real problems getting the cable card to work on my Premiere. He spent at least 3 hours trying several cards and talking with tech support on the phone. They even sent a second guy to drop down a new line from the pole, which gave me a slightly better signal, but didn't solve the problem.
> In the end, they got it working and it's been great for several months (and my Internet's pretty speedy, too).


I guess I spoke too soon. The darn tuning adapter went out and just sits there blinkin. TW customer service is unable to fix it remotely. A tech will have to come out Tuesday. I suspect it's a bad TA.

-mj


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

You should file a report with the FCC. FCC.gov/complaints.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

TiVoStephen said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> As you saw in this report, at times it can be a challenge obtaining a CableCARD. This is absolutely something we have been aware of, and we are very pleased that as of August 8, 2011, all cable providers are mandated by the FCC to allow subscribers the option of a hassle-free, no charge self-install of the cable card.
> 
> ...


where does it say no charge cable card install? on the FCC website


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

It doesn't matter how much you complain, there is nothing anyone can do about it. The absolute DEBACLE that is Time Warner Customer Service when it comes to cable cards is the most horrific experience for a Tivo customer. No one knows what they are talking about. So while TWC offers it, good luck getting adequate support. Nonexistent.


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

NotNowChief said:


> It doesn't matter how much you complain, there is nothing anyone can do about it. The absolute DEBACLE that is Time Warner Customer Service when it comes to cable cards is the most horrific experience for a Tivo customer. No one knows what they are talking about. So while TWC offers it, good luck getting adequate support. Nonexistent.


Agreed. I had problems where my Tuning Adapter kept going offline and I had to reboot it. I had techs come to the house 6 times. I was sick of the problems so I complained to the FCC. A TimeWarner rep contacted me saying she would be my personal contact if I had any more problems. The next time the tuning adapter went down I called her. She said that I should reboot it. When I said that's what I complained about originally, she said a monthly reboot is normal because the components are so complex. I suggested that TW should get better quality TAs and CCs, but she wasn't interested in any of it. Basically, her solution was STFU and reboot the TA when it goes down.

Tivo needs to be fighting this battle. Frustrated consumers will ditch the Tivo because they don't want to deal with the frustration. I'm stubborn, so I'll waste hours my time with TW service because I want my Tivo to work, but most people aren't like that. Tivo has the financial incentive to see that a proper fix is implemented and they need to be much more proactive.


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## SirMontego (Dec 21, 2004)

ajwees41 said:


> where does it say no charge cable card install? on the FCC website


It doesn't, but no one ever said the FCC requires a no charge cable card install. Rather, the language of the poster was "no charge *self*-install of the cable card".


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## SirMontego (Dec 21, 2004)

I think it should be noted that new FCC rules have been released since the original New York Times blog entry was published. In my experience over the past three months, Time Warner Cable (in Hawaii) has been (mostly) knowledgeable in the field of cable cards.

My tuning adapter (two month old Cisco STA1520 with firmware 1501) has not given me any problems. (knock on wood)

If your tuning adapter is giving you problems, I suggest asking for a brand new replacement (instead of a used replacement). Obviously, restarting isn't working so you should try something new.

You should also send a letter to the FCC ([email protected] or call 202-418-1160) specifically detailing your problems with the tuning adapter including the dates of tuning adapter failure and required restart. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-11-1373A1.pdf

If enough people do this, the next FCC order on cable cards will include a few lines about how customers are complaining. The letters to the FCC should also include an argument that cable companies providing defective tuning adapters effectively negates all benefits of having a cable card system.

Include in the letter a proposed solution is to open the market for other companies to make tuning adapters. That way the market can operate to find its own solution instead of forcing customers to use one model that doesn't work. Alternatively, the FCC can allow Tivo to include a tuning adapter its next model.


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## Kath13 (Aug 1, 2012)

Have been reading and looking up all the info on the cable card stuff...still have a question. Does self install mean self bought...My cable company says I have to get a cable card from them to use in our Tivo


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Kath13 said:


> Have been reading and looking up all the info on the cable card stuff...still have a question. Does self install mean self bought...My cable company says I have to get a cable card from them to use in our Tivo


Self-install means that your cable operator provides you with a CableCard from their local office or via mail and you insert it by yourself into the TiVo. You will need to call your cable operator (most common) or use their website (least common) to have your new CableCARD "paired" which essentially authorizes it in your cable operator's systems to receive encrypted content.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Also note that if you have any problems, folks here can often assist by directing you to the correct resource for your cable company. Some cable companies have specific phone contacts for cable card installs that normal customer service reps aren't aware of.

Don't assume that your average customer service rep knows what they're talking about if it contradicts what you've read here.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

nrc said:


> .......Don't assume that your average customer service rep knows what they're talking about if it contradicts what you've read here.


Don't assume that ... period. Since TiVo users are less than 1% of their customers, there isn't much incentive to train reps on TiVo-specific info. Given the difficulty and cost of running their support ops, I think you're lucky if they can handle the mainstream (i.e., not TiVo related) problems competently.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Kath13 said:


> Have been reading and looking up all the info on the cable card stuff...still have a question. Does self install mean self bought...My cable company says I have to get a cable card from them to use in our Tivo


to add to what the others said- the cable company can either rent it to you or sell it to you. But you get it from them.

the vast majority of people are served by providers that rent the cards for ~$0-3.00 a month. A few providers force people to buy them- "Service electric" comes to mind as having made people buy them in the past.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Don't assume that ... period. Since TiVo users are less than 1% of their customers, there isn't much incentive to train reps on TiVo-specific info. Given the difficulty and cost of running their support ops, I think you're lucky if they can handle the mainstream (i.e., not TiVo related) problems competently.


I disagree completely. Tivo and Comcast have spent a considerable amount of money advertising the new Xfinity app on Tivo in my area. There are billboards everywhere and I have seen some commercials too. If Comcast is going to put this kind of investment into advertising, they should have a trained staff who can handle these issues.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

aadam101 said:


> I disagree completely. Tivo and Comcast have spent a considerable amount of money advertising the new Xfinity app on Tivo in my area. There are billboards everywhere and I have seen some commercials too. If Comcast is going to put this kind of investment into advertising, they should have a trained staff who can handle these issues.


He didn't say they should not do it, he said they don't have an economic incentive to do so. Heck, they *should* train their CSRs to be abe to deal with their regular STBs, but they don't. Perhaps more correctly, they don't hire people for whom such training does any good.

I called TW Cable (Roadrunner), because I could not recall the URL of the page that allowed one to opt out of DNS redirection. The idiot on the other end argued with me for 20 minutes that their servers's DNS settings were not configurable. It was their own web page, ferchrissake, and anyone who employs DNS redirection *MUST* allow an opt-out. I finally demanded she put her supervisor on line. While I waited on hold for another 20 minutes, I continued to search and finally found the web page. When he eventually picked up the phone, he also tried to tell me the servers were not configurable. I read him the riot act, and pointed him to the URL of his own company's web page, tucked in an obscure corner of his company's website. When I asked him what the heck he thought that page was for, he didn't answer. I hung up on the moron.

The majority of CATV CSRs (indeed support individuals in most industries) have only recently been able to raise their knuckles from the ground. There are some stellar exceptions, and on one of the very rare occasions I come across one of them, I make it a point to shower them with praise. If I have time, I have them bring their supervisor online and tell them the CSR needs to be singled out and rewarded. Usually, however, I hang up the phone wishing fervently for laws against criminal stupidity.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

SirMontego said:


> Include in the letter a proposed solution is to open the market for other companies to make tuning adapters.


Others could, if they wanted to. No one does. Pace and a few others have purchased the rights to one or both patent owners' protocols and are producing 2nd party STBs and DVRs. So is TiVo, but not (AFAIK) on any SDV systems.



SirMontego said:


> That way the market can operate to find its own solution instead of forcing customers to use one model that doesn't work.


Like what? As long as the various headends are incompatible, there will never be a reasonable 3rd party residential solution.



SirMontego said:


> Alternatively, the FCC can allow Tivo to include a tuning adapter its next model.


Why do people keep saying things like this? You need to learn something about the industry. Trying to include TAs into a 3rd party consumer device would be an immediate and spectacular disaster. If the FCC would mandate a bi-directional standard (*NOT* tru2way and OCAP), then manufacturing a 3rd party natively SDV capable DVR would be practical. Unfortunately, it would still no doubt be saddled with DRM, so it would be no better, and considerably worse, than what we have now.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> ..........Since TiVo users are less than 1% of their customers, there isn't much incentive to train reps on TiVo-specific info. Given the difficulty and cost of running their support ops, I think you're lucky if they can handle the mainstream (i.e., not TiVo related) problems competently.





aadam101 said:


> I disagree completely. Tivo and Comcast have spent a considerable amount of money advertising the new Xfinity app on Tivo in my area. There are billboards everywhere and I have seen some commercials too. If Comcast is going to put this kind of investment into advertising, they should have a trained staff who can handle these issues.


I don't see complete disagreement here. We both think "they *should* have a trained staff who can handle these issue". Apparently ComCast has an additional incentive related to Xfinity, which TWC (my cable co) doesn't. Regarding investment in promotions and ads, it's not unusual for marketing and performance to be completely out of sync in a company. Actually in my experience it's common.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Others could, if they wanted to. No one does. Pace and a few others have purchased the rights to one or both patent owners' protocols and are producing 2nd party STBs and DVRs. So is TiVo, but not (AFAIK) on any SDV systems.
> 
> Like what? As long as the various headends are incompatible, there will never be a reasonable 3rd party residential solution.
> 
> Why do people keep saying things like this? You need to learn something about the industry. Trying to include TAs into a 3rd party consumer device would be an immediate and spectacular disaster. If the FCC would mandate a bi-directional standard (*NOT* tru2way and OCAP), then manufacturing a 3rd party natively SDV capable DVR would be practical. Unfortunately, it would still no doubt be saddled with DRM, so it would be no better, and considerably worse, than what we have now.


+1 :up: Except I'm curious why you think DRM would make the new bi-directional standard worse than what we have now? (Is it because you have hacked your way around DRM now but aren't sure if you could do it with the new system? )


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