# Mad as Hell & not going to take it anymore, Redux!!



## JohnACV (May 29, 2008)

*WARNING!! This is a very long post but important so I hope you will read it all the way through. My apologies for it's length!!

A few days ago I posted a thread in the Tivo Coffeehouse...which is included below. I also posted a new thread responding to those that answered the original thread. I'll include that below as well. As for the original thread, I wrote it while angry (try not to do this!) I was also misinformed on a few things. I would like for those of you who are angered about how Directv is treating it's customers, to read the original thread and then the responses to it. Then read my 2nd thread (Mad as Hell...not so much!!). My goal here, is to get a better understanding of what's going on with Directv, Tivo, technological advances/direction, etc...so that when I do write to the executive officers at Directv, I'll have all my ducks in a row. I would aslo like to know how you all feel about being consumers, your rights, real or imagined, your responsibilities should be as customers as well as the responsibilities of the company providing service.

Here is the original thread I posted in Tivo Coffeehouse Titled: Mad as Hell and not going to take it anymore!

Dear TIVO Community,
Although I have been a long time reader of the TIVO Forum I very rarely post. Well...now I am MAD AS HELL and I'm not going to take it anymore!! I'm sure many of you feel the same way as I do about the NON choices Dtv is "offering" you. My situation, briefly: I am an HR10-250 OWNER. This unit is only MPEG-2 compliant. The future of Dtv is MPEG-4. According to what I have been told Dtv is going to terminate thier MPEG-2 stream by the end of 08, leaving me with NO service unless I "lease" thier equipment (with a 2 year committment) The catch...thier equipment is NOT TIVO. It's thier inhouse bastardized version of TIVO and I hear it's not worth a SH*#!!!
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of you in the TIVO Community will agree...the TIVO operating system is far superior to everything else out there. Why would any of us want to give that up??? Being, Mad as Hell and not wanting to take it anymore, I am not going to give up with out a fight. I believe what has happened is this... Dtv bean counters have, more or less, determined that those of us with Dtv receivers w/TIVO are EXPENDABLE, meaning...they can alienate us alltogether without taking a financial hit with the added effect of getting some of those Dtv w/Tivo users to "upgrade" (downgrade is more like it) to Dtv's DVR and it's "not worth a crap OS". This should make everyone of you MAD AS HELL!!! Unless we stand up as consumers and tell these corporations that they cannot treat us this way, they will continue to do so. 
This is what I (just one person) will be doing (and I hope that I can convince you to do it along with me) actually...I'm BEGGING you all to help me with this. I believe that if we come together as a community, we CAN effect change, but it has to be a "Shock & Awe" letter writing campaign. I will be writing the Corporate Officers of Dtv... (CEO Chase Carey, Exec. VP of Operations Michael W. Palkovic and Exec. VP - Chief Marketing Officer Paul Guyardo) individually (each will get the same letter). Just to raise your spirits a little, you should know that I have written to the executive officers of several major corporations, made my case without threats or vulgarity and in every case was satisfied/compensated in a manner that I had'nt even hoped for! This can work but we all have to do it together. My goal is to convince them that an MPEG-4 compliant Dtv receiver w/TIVO is NEEDED and WANTED by Dtv subscribers.
If you choose to join this grassroots campaign to be heard by Dtv, I Thank you in advance. A few guidelines for your letter's: 1. Do not make threats!, 2. Do not use vulgarity!, 3. DO tell them of your complete satisfaction and loyalty to TIVO., 4. DO tell them that you feel alienated by them., 5. DO tell them that the "choices" they offer you are unsatisfactory and amount to NO choices at all., 5. DO let them know that you appreciate the service they have provided over the years and that TIVO has made your life easier and more enjoyable. 
I will try to post to this thread in a few days a list of ideas as well as attaching the letter I will be sending to assist in cultivating your own ideas.

You should address your letters as follows:
Directv Corporate Office
ATTN: Chase Carey, CEO
2230 E. Imperial Hwy.
El Segundo, CA 90245

Don't forget to write to all 3 executives (put thier name and title in the ATTN: line)
MS WORD has templates for business letters. You can also find templates online.

I TRULY BELIEVE THAT IF WE ALL COME TOGETHER AS A COHESIVE COMMUNITY...WE CAN EFFECT THE KIND OF CHANGES WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE.

Thank you to the TIVO community at large for allowing me to post this request and Thank You to every individual who shares my goal and gets involved. This community forum is, hands down, the best and most helpful forum on the web.

John A. Seavey
Email: [email protected]

If there are any questions or comments please feel free to post to the thread or send me an email.

This is the 2nd thread I posted in response to those who answered my original post also found in Tivo Coffeehouse, titled: Mad as Hell...not so much!!

This just goes to show that...1. Post in the correct forum. 2. Get UNbent before writing, and 3. Get your facts right! 
First let me say...Thank you to all who responded to my rant, the feedback was well appreciated. Even though I was sort of "put in my place" I'm still pretty pissed off at Directv however, my anger has taken an additional direction. It seems an ever increasing number of companies are abandoning "service" to thier customers and instead focused on "service" to thier major stockholders. Laws pertaining to publically held companies are somewhat responsible for this but I think that customers as a force are more responsible. Companies realized a while back that the customer hs become an old toothless dog...they bark a little but there's really no bite. This is, to a large extent, why companies like Directv take advantage of us. This has been happening in local, State and Fecderal politics for a very long time...TOO LONG!! Change will never happen sitting on your ass, hoping someone else will take the lead. This situation is synonomous with whats happening in our country. As a conservative, I don't want the government telling me what I can eat, drive or listen to on the radio and I certainly don't want some service providing company telling me how it's going to be!! Even with all it's faults, America is still the best country on earth just as, in my opinion, Directv is the best service provider for media content. This does not mean I should roll over and take it or offer up a toothless bark!
I understand this is not the forum for this. I just wanted to respond to those who have rolled over or crept off to another provider. I guess the point I wanted to make was... as consumers, we don't have to accept being treated like this. We can do something. We just have to try! FYI: A Class Action Lawsuit was never an avenue I considered.
Thank you for being patient with me as I am not privy to all of the rules and such of posting threads on forums. Your feedback is appreciated...positive or not. I'll remember in the future to post in the correct group. I realize that I'm a little "Johnny come lately" to some of the issues and maybe a little niave but I believe that the operators and members of this forum, whether they agree with me or not, will help to educate me. 
Respectfully,

JohnACV
********************************************************** So...there you have it. As I stated at the beginning, my goal is to become more informed about the issues I've raised, as well as to, hopefully, inspire Directv customers to do something instead of rolling over, barking a toothless bark or just plain quitting. Whether you believe it or not, we as customers DO HAVE POWER, we've never lost it, we just hav'nt exersized it enforce. When we do that, we will see changes.

Thank you for bearing with me and please, please let me know how you feel about all this.

JohnACV

I appreciate any and all feedback, positive or otherwise.*


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

JohnACV said:


> ... I am an HR10-250 OWNER. This unit is only MPEG-2 compliant. The future of Dtv is MPEG-4. According to what I have been told Dtv is going to terminate thier MPEG-2 stream by the end of 08, leaving me with NO service unless I "lease" thier equipment (with a 2 year committment) The catch...thier equipment is NOT TIVO.


John:
Good luck. You're certainly entitled to your feelings. But you're complaint seems to be based on mis-information ....

DirecTV is *not *terminating their MPEG2 stream at the end of 2008. They're just moving the current handful of MPEG2 HiDef channels to the new MPEG4 satellites. Standard Definition MPEG2 channels will continue for many years, and the HR10-250 will continue to receive and record them. And, of course, the HR10-250 will continue to receive MPEG2 local HDTV channels using an OTA antenna.


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## madbeachcat (Jan 31, 2002)

JohnACV said:


> ********************************************************** So...there you have it. As I stated at the beginning, my goal is to become more informed about the issues I've raised, as well as to, hopefully, inspire Directv customers to do something instead of rolling over, barking a toothless bark or just plain quitting. Whether you believe it or not, we as customers DO HAVE POWER, we've never lost it, we just hav'nt exersized it enforce. When we do that, we will see changes.
> 
> Thank you for bearing with me and please, please let me know how you feel about all this.
> 
> ...


John,

I am not writing this to be critical of you. But, the fact is, whatever power you ( as in Tivo fans ) have is only as large as your numbers. I'm sorry, but I do not think the numbers are there for there to be much of an impact.

Plus, not all of us feel the outrage you seem to feel concerning the new DirecTv receivers. And I'm not all together sure why you think DirecTv should not have the right to come out with their own DVR's, exclusive of TIVO. All of their customers have the right to make their own decisions about doing business with DirecTv. Ample notice has been given about the change to Mpeg 4, so that if people wanted to opt and go another they have been able to.

On another subject you refer to the new receivers as "in house bastardized version of TIVO and I hear it's not worth a SH*#!!!". Do you base this solely on what you hear, or from experience? I have had an HR-250, which I liked very much, thank you. And currently have an HR21-700, which I also like very much. They are not the same and each one of them has strong points. But they both fulfill there intended functions well. With the exception that the Tivo cannot receive Mpeg4. And the HR21 is much quicker and at least as easy to use.

Never say never, but I think the day you see another DTivo will be the day after I win the Lotto.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

I think I'd consider moving out from over the top of that paint store. Those fumes can get pretty thick once the summer heat comes on.


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## miklb (Oct 25, 2003)

thanks JohnACV ... i read all that & wholeheartedly agree with you !

i have 1st hand experience with the HR21-700 & it pretty much sucks compared 2 TiVo !
TiVo seemed "smarter than me" ... DirecTVs DVR is still a work in progress, apparently .


(BTW ... the fumes aren't as bad as one might think !)


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## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

I just upgraded to an HDTV and have been a DirecTV customer for 9+ years, the last 6 or so with a HDV2 DirecTivo unit that I am very happy with. I actually had left D* in December to try UVerse but ran screaming back because of how bad the AT&T DVR software was.

Now, mainly because of a combination of their 2 year commitment issue and lack of a Tivo DVR, I am about to leave them. I'd sign the 2 year deal if they had a Tivo DVR but I'm not willing to take the risk on the HR21 which has mixed reviews.

I'm not quite as worked up as you, but I'm definitely another statistic for your argument. I'm simply not going to pay DirecTV $99 (the "deal" they offered me on their web site) to lease their DVR and be locked into a 2 year contract if I don't like it!

In fact, yesterday, the installers set up my new Dish Network VIP722 DVR. I paid a $49.99 activation fee to avoid a commitment (something I would be willing to do with DirecTV if they offered it).

I'm not sold on the Dish DVR interface and am having some signal dropout issues on one of the 3 satellites, but they're coming back out to re-aim the dish tomorrow and I'm giving them a month or two to let their DVR interface grow on me. If, after that time, I (and my wife) still don't like their DVR, I'll probably go buy a Tivo HD and a couple of CableCards on TimeWarner and hope they start adding more HD channels (no SciFi HD!!!)

If DirecTV offers an HD Tivo DVR again, I'd probably be happy to come back.


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## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

... continuing from my last post (in case anyone cares), the Dish installers came back out and re-aimed the dish and it now appears to be stable.

The DVR interface is nowhere near as intuitive as Tivo's and it has a few quirks but we're slowing learning how best to use it.

I think I'll be going ahead and suspending my DirecTV account tonight. If Tivo and/or TimeWarner can get their CableCard/SDV act together (and if TW starts carying SciFi HD) I might still switch to a TivoHD in the future but for now we'll stick with Dish Network.

Bye bye DTV, it was good while it lasted. It's too bad you had to go off on your own with the DVR.


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## kimsan (Jan 23, 2002)

While I fully understand your position, may I say that as a recent convert to the HR21-100, I'm pleased.

It ain't a TiVo, but it is the future path of DirecTV. It (they actually, 2 units)*has* recorded everything scheduled reliably. The MediaShare beta is pretty darn functional and is something HDTiVo never had. The frequent sw updates show an ongoing commitment to improvement (and have yet to screw things up from my POV).

HDTiVo had Galleon for music service if hacked. There was also the EXTra ACTtracion potentian a hacked HDTiVo allowed. In both cases, DTV never condoned these uses. And this time of year I miss suggestions.

So while I respect and understand your position, I do not regret my choice.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

kimsan said:


> While I fully understand your position, may I say that as a recent convert to the HR21-100, I'm pleased.
> 
> It ain't a TiVo, but it is the future path of DirecTV. It (they actually, 2 units)*has* recorded everything scheduled reliably. The MediaShare beta is pretty darn functional and is something HDTiVo never had. The frequent sw updates show an ongoing commitment to improvement (and have yet to screw things up from my POV).
> 
> ...


I think it's interesting that folks like the new features such as discussed here. The thing I find amusing is that Direct chose to keep the DTivo customers restrained in the feature set in comparison to the stand alone Tivo.

So, when I see comments about this is the future I think to myself how many years ago we could have been enjoying some of this 'future' if Direct had allowed us to use the darkened features that were already available.

The other thing I find amusing is all of the talk about a single box from Direct. The FCC made the cable companies open up their systems so that customers could buy their own equipment and add it to the service. At the same time, Direct has moved in the opposite direction - 'encouraging' customers to lease the equipment. Let's see, Direct pays somewhere around $200 - 300 for its dvr, but charges $800 if you want to buy it, while I can buy a Tivo for $250 - 350.

One wonders how long the FCC will allow the numbers 2 and 3 video systems in the country to continue these practices?


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

eric_n_dfw said:


> ... continuing from my last post (in case anyone cares), the Dish installers came back out and re-aimed the dish and it now appears to be stable.
> 
> The DVR interface is nowhere near as intuitive as Tivo's and it has a few quirks but we're slowing learning how best to use it.
> 
> I think I'll be going ahead and suspending my DirecTV account tonight. If Tivo and/or TimeWarner can get their CableCard/SDV act together (and if TW starts carying SciFi HD) I might still switch to a TivoHD in the future but for now we'll stick with Dish...


So to sum up, you got installation service that was probably no better than DirecTV's, you got a DVR that is limited to one OTA tuner and is generally considered to be inferior to DirecTV's, and you get an HD availability of 64 channels rather than DTV's 95 (oh wait, the Voom channels just went boom, so that's 20 or 30 of those 64 HD channels down the drain) plus an inferior sports HD availability on top of that.

Sounds like you gave up a lot for $50, while trading the devil you know for the devil you don't. If you keep it 2 years or more you will have avoided a comittment for exactly nothing, too. I got my HR20 for free and didn't extend my commitment, which runs out in 4 months. But I'm hardly counting the days--If DTV keeps trumping the competition this bad I'll be a sub for life



eric_n_dfw said:


> ...Bye bye DTV, it was good while it lasted. It's too bad you had to go off on your own with the DVR.


Too bad for you, you mean, not for them. I'm as big a Tivo booster as anyone, but the HD DVR has been very successful, according to the numbers. It turns out that dumping Tivo was a shrewd business decision, and an unqualified success, whether we like that or not.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

According to what numbers? D's numbers? Of course it a success, when you are a dictator, or a Communist, one size fits all and everything you do is a success. It comes down to D's way or the highway. What ever numbers they post are based not on quality, satisfaction, or any other measure of customer service, but numbers from captives. You are the only person I've heard of that got away without a 2 year extension.

Force me to do something for two years or charge me $$$$ to get out and I'll stay and suffer. D showed their hand when they insisted on a 2 year commitment on leased equipment, they believe you have to be a captive to stay. As I've posted before, let me try your equipment and decide if it's worth it to me, if not let me walk away. That's my take on the situation.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Matt L said:


> According to what numbers? D's numbers? Of course it a success, when you are a dictator, or a Communist, one size fits all and everything you do is a success. It comes down to D's way or the highway. What ever numbers they post are based not on quality, satisfaction, or any other measure of customer service, but numbers from captives. You are the only person I've heard of that got away without a 2 year extension.
> 
> Force me to do something for two years or charge me $$$$ to get out and I'll stay and suffer. D showed their hand when they insisted on a 2 year commitment on leased equipment, they believe you have to be a captive to stay. As I've posted before, let me try your equipment and decide if it's worth it to me, if not let me walk away. That's my take on the situation.


Basicly - yes - nothing to do with "dictator or communism", just business practices. If you don't like it, then leave - that is your choice. For new subscribers AND retention of subscribers to be what they are AND growing, something has to be done right. Funny thing is the commitment is not a new issue, when I installed my first DVR from them there was a 1 year commitment on it - this was back when they had units manufacturered by Philips, long before the R15

As far as the two year commitment, just had one of my SD dvr's replace, no contract extension on it.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

JohnACV said:


> My goal is to convince them that an MPEG-4 compliant Dtv receiver w/TIVO is NEEDED and WANTED by Dtv subscribers.


Good luck with that. First the only people who 'might' want a DirecTV Tivo are existing Tivo users (and RS4 and his fanclub who don't even have DirecTV and just want to bash them for the sake of having nothing better to do.  ). Secondly, many (like me who have had Tivo for 8+ years) feel the DirecTV model is superior to Tivo and have had no problems adjusting to the differences (which are mostly better). I have 3 HR20s now and they all work flawlessly.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> Basicly - yes - nothing to do with "dictator or communism", just business practices. If you don't like it, then leave - that is your choice. For new subscribers AND retention of subscribers to be what they are AND growing, something has to be done right. Funny thing is the commitment is not a new issue, when I installed my first DVR from them there was a 1 year commitment on it - this was back when they had units manufacturered by Philips, long before the R15
> 
> As far as the two year commitment, just had one of my SD dvr's replace, no contract extension on it.


I love reading the the apologists from D*.

In the first place, D* used to offer a 30-day trial - no longer.
Secondly, the commitment was for a year, not 2.
Thirdly, the ETF was much less then it is today.

D* is growing, but it isn't because of their business practices and second-rated dvr. It just shows you what happens in today's market - people don't bother to do the research. Even Microsoft is growing by leaps and bounds and VISTA is not a popular OS.:down:

The real question is - how much would D* have grown if they upgraded the DTivo - even if they came out with their own dvr? How much more would they be growing if they didn't have such coercive business practices?


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I love reading the the apologists from D*.
> 
> In the first place, D* used to offer a 30-day trial - no longer.
> Secondly, the commitment was for a year, not 2.
> ...


Hey how is the HR10 and directv working?

Been with directv since inception - do not remember a 30 day trial at all, maybe wrong but sorry do not. Also do not recall a time when there was NOT a commitment for equipment.

Probably 0 - but then again it depends on if they removed the ability to hack around copyright protection, going to be interesting to see how that upcoming battle works out.

Again mostly your opinion, you tend to disagree with any information published that chips at the holy grail of Tivo land, especially if it proves your thought process incorrect.

you made your choice - your dropped directv for a provider that supplies sub-par content just so you can have what you consider a better platform. Me I prefer content and a better platform for I stayed with Directv and got the better HR2X series. At least I still have one HR10 running.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

FMFJI but I think some of the hostilities is because HD Tivos don't work with DBS at all. But it can with cable or FIOS by cable card. I don't think you can even use a DBS receiver with HD Tivos like you can with SD Tivos and digital cable. I know that's what ticks me off. So the end of the Tivo DBS-HD MPEG II units is the end of an option and the termination of a lifestyle choice, to some extent.

It's not even just that the 2 remaining DBS companies are pushing their DVRs. It's that you have lost Tivo and all it's options, like MRV and Unbox. Because what sense does it make to rent a DBS HD DVR box and ALSO sub to TIVO to get SD only content?  Though I know some folks do for their own preferences because they can afford the additional expense. But no matter how deep your pockets you have to admit that just having 1 box per set that does it all is much preferred over any workaround solution.

Then there's the content debate, since nobody carries EVERYTHING available in programming. Right now Direct TV has a lock on Christian programming offered. Dish may have an advantage in foreign language content. So while DBS fills a niche in some areas in programming offered we're still back to the fact that you can't use Tivo HD with DBS.

We want our lives to be simpler - which is one of the Tivo credos. Not _more _cluttered, confusing, and frustrating.

Even an extra $10 - $15 a month in additional fees of one sort or another is no big deal for many folks but for me it determines how well the cats eat that month.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Matt L said:


> According to what numbers?...


The "numbers" are exactly what sjberra says. Pre-2006 DTV had far and away the best DVR anyone could have, and one significantly better than all competitors, and more importantly one _perceived _to be that much better. It took a lot of balls to try to replace that, so if nothing else we have to give them credit for that.

If the HD DVR had been a colossal failure, folks would be jumping ship to FIOS, DISH, Cable, OTA, youtube, what-have-you. But the "numbers", which would be difficult to spin, show an accelerated growth in subs, and especially DVR subs, and lower churn. That translates to satisfied customers, and I don't think that can be attributed to sheer luck--apparently DTV must be doing something right.



Matt L said:


> ... let me try your equipment and decide if it's worth it to me, if not let me walk away. That's my take on the situation.


But unfortunately for you, DTV has a different business model in mind, which seems to be working just fine for them regardless of your take on the situation, or mine.

Have you ever owned a cell phone? 99.9% are using that exact same business model, which is a commitment period. And the wireless companys' only problem if a customer balks is the cost of the phone, which is very small, yet they will bill you into the next solar system to get you to pay for it should you try to cancel early.

DTV, on the other hand, has a significant prior investment in a new HD customer, including the cost of a new dish, an installation, and the DVR, which is subsidized (IOW it may cost you $169 at COSTCO, but it probably cost them 2 to 3 times that much to manufacture it). They expect a return on that investment, and the committment eases the blow by giving them legal leverage should you turn out to be a deadbeat.

It's that simple. The cost to them is a perception by some, such as yourself, that a commitment is unreasonable, which costs them a few customers, yet protects the bottom line.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

RS4 said:


> I love reading the the apologists from D...


Yet it appears that what you love the most is calling people names, as if being an "apologist" were actually a bad thing. That's about as moronic as FOX News Channel pundits labeling people as "liberals", as if that were a bad thing.

And it is only an assumption inside your mind that folks are "apologizing" for DTV. You probably could never begin to grasp the concept that people might actually agree with what they are doing.

Dismissing other people's opinions as if they were unimportant or something they are not entitled to does nothing more than lower the value of your own opinions, and put into question why you might be entitled to them.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> If the HD DVR had been a colossal failure, folks would be jumping ship to FIOS, DISH, Cable, OTA, youtube, what-have-you. But the "numbers", which would be difficult to spin, show an accelerated growth in subs, and especially DVR subs, and lower churn. That translates to satisfied customers, and I don't think that can be attributed to sheer luck--apparently DTV must be doing something right.


Of course there is lower churn,you charge me hundreds of dollars to leave, I'll grit my teeth and wait out the 2 years. As to growth, I can easily spin that - people are converting to HD in increasing numbers and want to sample content. Most people have never had a DVR and you could push crap at them and they wouldn't know it, D knows that very well.

Right now my Hr10-250 meets and exceeds my needs. D is getting my $100+/mo and it will stay that way until I find something I perceive as better for me. However, D does not get to make that choice for me - I have no commitment and I CAN walk away.

D has chosen to give up the high end, "cool factor" market. I had E* before I had D. When I switched it was for the then cutting edge equipment such as the DTiVo unit. I've had HD TV for 7 years now. I paid $$$ for that HD TV and $$$ for that HDTiVo, to me it was the best entertainment money I've ever spent. There is nothing D is offering me today that would entice me as a new customer. Everyone has lots of content, everyone has a mediocre DVR, everyone claims great service - where is the "Wow" factor?

I my opinion D wants me to take a step back with their DVR. The features I've used for a decade are nowhere to be found on their unit, how is that "cutting edge"?


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Matt L said:


> Of course there is lower churn,you charge me hundreds of dollars to leave, I'll grit my teeth and wait out the 2 years. As to growth, I can easily spin that - people are converting to HD in increasing numbers and want to sample content...


To avoid being prey to disinformation within the spin, you have to interpret the numbers properly. There is significantly lower churn also _in premium subscriptions and package subscriptions_ separated out from what would be accounted for by overall churn, which would not be the case if folks were pissed at what they interpret as indentured servitude, especially in the current economy, meaning those who do interpret it that way are in the tiny minority.

You also have to compare subscriber growth and rate of growth to that of competing vendors, and the numbers reveal there that DTV is where the significant growth is, and where the accelleration in growth has been. If you could chalk growth up merely to increasing desire for HD, other vendors would match that. They don't.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Matt L said:


> Of course there is lower churn,you charge me hundreds of dollars to leave, I'll grit my teeth and wait out the 2 years.


One forgets there have been commitments long before DirecTV did their own DVRs. Last 2 DirecTivo's I activated (long ago) both had 1 year commitments on them. The first 2 yr commitments with the R15 have been rolling off the books for nearly a year now. So to say it's all because people "are in prison" with the commitment is wrong.



> Most people have never had a DVR and you could push crap at them and they wouldn't know it, D knows that very well.


I won't comment on what's crap and what's not but if these people are satisfied with "crap" is that wrong? Does that make those people a D* apologist as RS4 likes to say?



> D has chosen to give up the high end, "cool factor" market. There is nothing D is offering me today that would entice me as a new customer. Everyone has lots of content, everyone has a mediocre DVR, everyone claims great service - where is the "Wow" factor?


Ummm, it's a DVR. It records your shows, allows you to get season passes and let's you watch your shows. What more "wow" factor is there for the vast majority of people? I don't get it. Tivo was "wow" to me too back 8 years ago. Wow, a tapeless VCR. Awesome! Well guess what, the D* DVRs are the same thing.

If you want "wow" there is plenty of that already with the D* line and more coming but I guess it's all what "wow" you are looking for. I mean I can play MP3s, watch pics and watch videos from my PC (or Mac) on the D* DVR. I can stream Internet radio stations to my HR20. I can watch YouTube on my HR20 should I choose to. I can watch shows from the HR20 on my PC now. The pieces of MRV are falling into place. "Widgets" are now in testing. I could go on. None of this has ever been on the DirecTivo units.

Now you can say "but I hacked mine long ago and I can do those things". Well goody for you. But if your argument is about the "wow" factor for a new sub to sign up, they will never hack the DirecTivo. 99% of people never hacked it and never will. So please don't base your arguments or comparisons on hacked boxes. And let's not go down the road of D* "crippling" the DirecTivo's by never offering those features. Just doesn't matter because they aren't there.

So if you want "wow" factor and put a DirecTivo side by side with an HR20, the HR20 is going to have more "wow" factor to it by far to the 99% unwashed masses.



> I my opinion D wants me to take a step back with their DVR. The features I've used for a decade are nowhere to be found on their unit, how is that "cutting edge"?


Ok. Hey, if Tivo is your number one thing then leave and be happy. Why suffer. I never understand this.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Matt L said:


> Of course there is lower churn,you charge me hundreds of dollars to leave, I'll grit my teeth and wait out the 2 years.


One forgets there have been commitments long before DirecTV did their own DVRs. Last 2 DirecTivo's I activated (long ago) both had 1 year commitments on them. The first 2 yr commitments with the R15 have been rolling off the books for nearly a year now. So to say it's all because people "are in prison" with the commitment is wrong.



> Most people have never had a DVR and you could push crap at them and they wouldn't know it, D knows that very well.


I won't comment on what's crap and what's not but if these people are satisfied with "crap" is that wrong? Does that make those people a D* apologist as RS4 likes to say?



> D has chosen to give up the high end, "cool factor" market. There is nothing D is offering me today that would entice me as a new customer. Everyone has lots of content, everyone has a mediocre DVR, everyone claims great service - where is the "Wow" factor?


Ummm, it's a DVR. It records your shows, allows you to get season passes and let's you watch your shows. What more "wow" factor is there for the vast majority of people? I don't get it. Tivo was "wow" to me too back 8 years ago. Wow, a tapeless VCR. Awesome! Well guess what, the D* DVRs are the same thing.

If you want "wow" there is plenty of that already with the D* line and more coming but I guess it's all what "wow" you are looking for. I mean I can play MP3s, watch pics and watch videos from my PC (or Mac) on the D* DVR. I can stream Internet radio stations to my HR20. I can watch YouTube on my HR20 should I choose to. I can watch shows from the HR20 on my PC now. The pieces of MRV are falling into place. "Widgets" are now in testing. I could go on. None of this has ever been on the DirecTivo units.

Now you can say "but I hacked mine long ago and I can do those things". Well goody for you. But if your argument is about the "wow" factor for a new sub to sign up, they will never hack the DirecTivo or anything else. 99% of people never hacked it and never will. So please don't base your arguments or comparisons on hacked boxes. And let's not go down the road of D* "crippling" the DirecTivo's by never offering those features. Just doesn't matter because they aren't there.

So if you want "wow" factor and put a DirecTivo side by side with an HR20, the HR20 is going to have more "wow" factor to it by far to the 99% unwashed masses.



> I my opinion D wants me to take a step back with their DVR. The features I've used for a decade are nowhere to be found on their unit, how is that "cutting edge"?


Ok. Hey, if Tivo is your number one thing then leave and be happy. Why suffer. I never understand this.

Besides, what are all these many features that you are losing?
DLB...yep.
Advanced Wishlists...perhaps. Many of the latest HR20 search enhancements have actually made it more powerful then a Tivo wishlist in many cases.

What else?

And if the world comes to an end without DLB then by all means go to a provider that offer that to you.

Oh by the way, do you also get on Comcast and Cox for "crippling" the Tivos they offer?


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## Avenger (Mar 26, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> That's about as moronic as FOX News Channel pundits labeling people as "liberals", as if that were a bad thing.


Actually, that IS a bad thing.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

I guess what upsets me is I expect is to keep the things I like in a product and add to them with a newer and supposedly better product. That and the two year commitment are my two complaints with D's strategy. I had no problem with the 1 year commitment when I got my HD TiVo. Prior to getting a DTiVo I had SA TiVos and knew the product well, getting a DTiVo was a no risk situation. The D DVR is an unknown quantity to me for the most part. From what I've read it has serious issues *FOR ME*. You may well thinks it's wonderful, based on the only thing D will let me base my decision on I don't think their product will fit my needs. How else am I supposed to decide? I use the tools I have available to me.

I've been with D now for almost 10 years. Between my monthly cost and equipment costs I've given them over $10,000 in that time. Yet they wont trust me with a $200 leased box? It's that fact that angers me and turns me against D more than any other.


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## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> ...you got a DVR that is limited to one OTA tuner and is generally considered to be inferior to DirecTV's


OTA Tunner: Dish = 1, HR21 = 0 (unless you buy the add-on adapter), so I'd say Dish wins on that one.
DVR Reviews are all over the place, neither are as nice as a Tivo from what I've seen and read so that's a moot point to me. My decision was greatly impacted by the fact that I have a close friend who is very picky about his TV experience and has both a stand-alone S2 Tivo and a Dish HD DVR and he's pretty happy with it. (Albiet that's just one man's opinion, but an informed one that I value)



TyroneShoes said:


> ... and you get an HD availability of 64 channels rather than DTV's 95 (oh wait, the Voom channels just went boom, so that's 20 or 30 of those 64 HD channels down the drain) plus an inferior sports HD availability on top of that.


I'm not a big sports fanatic so the vast majority of DTV's unique HD channels mean nothing to me. In fact, I did a lot of checking on that and there is absolutely nothing missing in HD that my family cares about.



TyroneShoes said:


> Sounds like you gave up a lot for $50, while trading the devil you know for the devil you don't. If you keep it 2 years or more you will have avoided a comittment for exactly nothing, too. I got my HR20 for free and didn't extend my commitment, which runs out in 4 months. But I'm hardly counting the days--If DTV keeps trumping the competition this bad I'll be a sub for life


Both services were, "devil's I didn't know", since I'm new to HDTV and have only used DTV's DVR briefly at Costco; the main difference was that one "devil" didn't force me to sign a 2 year commitment. 
I'm impressed that DRV didn't make you re-up your commitment, but they didn't offer me that and by the time I had called to cancel I already had the Dish service installed so I doubt it would have changed my mind at that point. Dish's no commitment offer is right on their web page, DTV should have had a similar option.



TyroneShoes said:


> Too bad for you, you mean, not for them. I'm as big a Tivo booster as anyone, but the HD DVR has been very successful, according to the numbers. It turns out that dumping Tivo was a shrewd business decision, and an unqualified success, whether we like that or not.


Good for them, but I'm sitting here with a monthly bill that didn't change from my SD DirecTivo service amount but now have an HDDVR with OTA capability and no lock in if their service goes to crap. If I had stayed with DTV, I'd be paying at least $10 more per month, had a 24 month commitment and not be getting anything more *that I watch* in HD than I do now.

Like I said, I was with DTV for 9 years, I didn't want to leave them, they left me. If I decide that the Dish service isn't all that great and if TivoHD + TimeWarner SDV isn't ironed out, I might entertain going back if they'll drop the stupid commitment, otherwise there is just nothing compelling about DTV's offer for me.


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## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

BTW: The commitment wouldn't bother me as much except for the fact that the thing is leased! I had commitments with my original DTV receiver and my HDVR2, but I own them and DTV subsidized their cost.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

eric_n_dfw said:


> BTW: The commitment wouldn't bother me as much except for the fact that the thing is leased! I had commitments with my original DTV receiver and my HDVR2, but I own them and DTV subsidized their cost.


Even leased it's still subsidized. $169 isn't what they cost DirecTV to make. It's been over $400 to manufacture for a while now. I believe in the last financial call they are getting it down to $300 or so. I'd rather do that then pay $1000 for an HR10, with commitment, and now it's barely worth $50. All my owned receivers over the past 12 years are worthless and collecting dust. Owning got me nothing. 

I always compare it to cable. $169 up front and you're done ($5 a month if it's your 2nd or more receiver). Or you can pay cable $14+ a month forever. Better deal to give DirecTV the up front fee and be done with it, in my mind anyway. And if it dies they'll replace it at no cost to me other then perhaps a shipping charge of $20.

Anyway...


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> ...
> 
> You also have to compare subscriber growth and rate of growth to that of competing vendors, and the numbers reveal there that DTV is where the significant growth is, and where the accelleration in growth has been. If you could chalk growth up merely to increasing desire for HD, other vendors would match that. They don't.


You better start checking your numbers before spouting off opinions as if they were fact. Yes, D* did have the largest growth as far as net additions, however FIOS is growing almost as fast and they don't have anywhere near the subscribers that D* does. And of course, FIOS doesn't have nearly as much territory as D* does. So FIOS has a huge growth when compared to D*.

And of course the reverse is true when it comes to churn - they are still losing huge numbers of clients. Guess where they are going?

And of course D*'s growth is due to the HD. Where was all the growth before they started offering all of these channels?

BTW, I suggest you look at the financials. I think you'll find that the cost of the dvr is closer to $200. So the up front 'lease' fee that they are charging practically pays for the darn thing at the beginning.

When checking the financials you'll also find that D*'s bottom line continues to grow by huge amounts. You know what they attribute that to - the increases in subscriber fees So, all that money that you guys say justifies all of these commitments and up front fees just doesn't match up with their bottom line numbers. Their technology growth has been paid for by the customers.

It's also funny to read all of the justifications you guys carry on about when you realize that Direct was throwing in the cost the customer equipment when they were going to merge with E*, and oh yeah - they told many folks buying an HR10-250, that they would give them a free upgrade, but somehow when it came time to where the rubber meets the road, they decide they have to soak their clients for the upgrade.

So, tell me again why this poor company would starve without all of these up front fees and commitments? The reality is they know that folks see 100 HD channels and they reel 'em in for as much as they can. Yep, the fishing is good for D* these days.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> You better start checking your numbers before spouting off opinions as if they were fact. Yes, D* did have the largest growth as far as net additions, however FIOS is growing almost as fast and they don't have anywhere near the subscribers that D* does. And of course, FIOS doesn't have nearly as much territory as D* does. So FIOS has a huge growth when compared to D*.
> 
> And of course the reverse is true when it comes to churn - they are still losing huge numbers of clients. Guess where they are going?
> 
> ...


So you are saying that the yearly increase in subscription cost is what fuels each quarters growth? wow, that is an interesting theory, can you document it?


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

RS4 said:


> You better start checking your numbers before spouting off opinions as if they were fact. Yes, D* did have the largest growth as far as net additions, however FIOS is growing almost as fast and they don't have anywhere near the subscribers that D* does. And of course, FIOS doesn't have nearly as much territory as D* does. So FIOS has a huge growth when compared to D*...


FIOS is a startup. It's pretty easy to have high percentages of growth when you are starting from zero. They could double their customers overnight when they go from one customer to two, for instance. Doubling your customer base overnight would be pretty impressive, unless you are starting from a low or early number, which means it isn't impressive at all, according to the numbers.

(sidebar) My personal opinion is that FIOS will languish until one of two things happens:

1) They get a competitive DVR instead of a POS
2) DVRs are eventually usurped by VOD

Content is the most important thing, and a good DVR (or good access to the content) is a close second. QoS is third. Currently, FIOS is sucking wind in all three departments.

(back OT) So, it's apples and oranges, and their numbers are not able to be interpreted as if they were all that successful, while DTV's numbers are indeed easily interpreted so, and it is easy to see that the HD DVR has been a resounding success while the loss of Tivo hasn't really made a dent. Just because we are not happy about that and wanted the HD DVR to tank and for DTV to go rushing back into Tivos arms doesn't mean it's not a fact.

And let's not forget that one choice on the table is refraining from dictating what I'd "better" do. Folks don't often take kindly to that sort of thing, and I usually agree with them and understand why. Also, no one can have a opinion about what the numbers are, they are what they are. So it is not my "opinion" what the numbers are. If you wish to challenge the numbers or my interpretation of the numbers, why not provide some real proof that the numbers are different? Or some credible argument regarding why my interpretation might be flawed, instead of "spouting off your opinion as if it were fact", which I guess is OK for you but not for anyone else. I guess I could say "you'd better", but then I never sink to that level.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

While FIOS is a startup don't forget that it does have a customer base of sorts to start up with. Not just with their phone & wireless subscriber base but in their DSL base. I was recently told that if I signed up for DSL they would waive early term fees if I switch to FIOS once it becomes available. And with the faster and more stable FIOS internet for like $5 more a month alone I'm sure most folks can't wait for it to arrive.

OTOH whether the bundled services will always be enough to draw video subscribers just as readily who knows? I know I balked at upgrading my BHN relationship for insisting I switch to Digital Tier Video service just to get a faster upload speed tier as it would push my bill to over $100 a month. I have been very happy with my Dish Essentials Service tier & locals & Cinemax for $17 so anything beyond that has really got to wow me - especially if it involves a commitment period as Verizon requires. And while I've not looked into the programming lineup I'm pretty sure FIOS video doesn't offer the Christian programming choices that Direct TV does.

It all comes down to whether the provider can or will provide what the customer wants for a price that is affordable to the customer for the attractions and how well the system works to keep the customer. As much as I like Tivo I almost dumped it after the last software update didn't get the bugs out for so long. Not having that option to cancel always makes me extra hard to sell no matter how much of a bargain I'm looking at.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> So you are saying that the yearly increase in subscription cost is what fuels each quarters growth? wow, that is an interesting theory, can you document it?


Just look at their financial call - that's exactly what they said. It was on the yearly - not quarterly financials.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> FIOS is a startup. It's pretty easy to have high percentages of growth when you are starting from zero. They could double their customers overnight when they go from one customer to two, for instance. Doubling your customer base overnight would be pretty impressive, unless you are starting from a low or early number, which means it isn't impressive at all, according to the numbers.
> 
> (sidebar) My personal opinion is that FIOS will languish until one of two things happens:
> 
> ...


Boy, can you sling it The difference between you and me is that I call it like I see it while you try to put a PC spin on things. But, you're innuendos are still biting nevertheless. I've seen you rip into folks after saying things like 'nothing personal here... you're entitled to your opinion...'

I was talking about 'real' numbers - both D* and FIOS had over 200K net subs, so no matter how you slice it FIOS is pulling customers from D* as well as the others. D* is just lucky that FIOS isn't more universal. And it's clear in both cases that they are growing in spite of their dvrs.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

And don't forget that you can use S3 and HD cablecard TiVo DVRs with FiOS. Immense, uncompressed HD, huge Internet bandwidth, AND TiVo. I wish I could get FiOS.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

RS4 said:


> I was talking about 'real' numbers - both D* and FIOS had over 200K net subs, so no matter how you slice it FIOS is pulling customers from D* as well as the others. D* is just lucky that FIOS isn't more universal. And it's clear in both cases that they are growing in spite of their dvrs.


Sure FIOS is pulling a bit from D*. Heck, they all pull from each other. That's why they all have churn. But it's pretty obvious that FIOS is pulling most of their new subs from Dish (who's sub growth is very lucky it's not negative right now) and cable (who overall is negative). So the only providers really growing are DirecTV and FIOS and perhaps Uverse since it's so new.

I'm not sure how that is bad or good for D* (or FIOS for that matter) but the numnbers are what they are.


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## Nugget (Nov 5, 2002)

I know that if I could get FIOS I'd drop DirecTV like a rock. As soon as I have an HD option that will let me stick with TiVo, I'm gone.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

RS4 said:


> ...I was talking about 'real' numbers - both D* and FIOS had over 200K net subs...


So prove it. Prove to us who's full of it and who isn't.

FIOS still isn't relevant yet, and won't be for some time (especially until they provide better access to content). My only assertion is that DTV's numbers prove that the HD DVR is a total success and the loss of Tivo was a blip on their radar, a bug squashed on their windshield with no one inside the board room shedding a single tear.

Let's see some real evidence, any real evidence, using _your _numbers that disprove that. Otherwise, I'm far too bored to get dragged into a dick-measuring contest.

So far, nothing. As expected.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

Man, you really chugged that Kool-Aide didn't you? Sounds like you are channeling Earl.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Matt L said:


> Man, you really chugged that Kool-Aide didn't you? Sounds like you are channeling Earl.


How do you know I'm not Earl?

In a way I am. Both Earl and myself are open-minded and able to see the big picture, are not afraid of change (and would rather embrace it) and are honest about reporting things as we see them rather than kow-towing to fanboys and "lemmings".

But I resent the other implication, which is that I might be blindly allegiant to, well, I guess, "something" other than what I perceive to be the truth, which in my view can be plainly evident to those who ironically have NOT drunk the Kool-Aid.

I have no dog in any fight other than that, my friend. But I understand that both change and truth are hard to swallow, and it's easier to kill the messenger or assume they are loony than to face the music. But I have faith. You'll get there.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

I've been around here a long time as have you. I know in the past you did not like the new unit, then you worked a "magic" deal that the rest of us can't. Since that point you've become more strident in your support of D. That's my take on the situation.

I'm not against progress, I've been on the cutting edge of things electronic for 3 decades I date back to SQ, QS and CD-4. I've been an early adopter of any number of technologies. Thing is these things I jumped on met a need or want, the new D DVR meets neither of these criteria for me, hence I'm not jumping on it. It's as simple as that. D has chosen a path that may not fit my needs. I say may not, because I've perfectly happy as things are now. My Hr10-250s are humming along nicely, recording everything I want or need. I get a steady supply of HD movies via Netflix so I don't need D to supply HBO or Showtime in HD in the future.

We all change, and all progress isn't equal. I may want something D has to offer in the future, but I"ll be very wary of them based on what I know. And for me, that's all I can speak for, I'll seek out other options before I commit to D.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> So prove it. Prove to us who's full of it and who isn't.
> 
> FIOS still isn't relevant yet, and won't be for some time (especially until they provide better access to content). My only assertion is that DTV's numbers prove that the HD DVR is a total success and the loss of Tivo was a blip on their radar, a bug squashed on their windshield with no one inside the board room shedding a single tear.
> 
> ...


Boy oh boy do you ever need a course in statistics Claiming that D*'s dvr is a total success just because D* is growing is so far off base that it's laughable.

The only numbers that I've seen relating to the success of the D* dvr has been from polls comparing various dvr's. In all of those that are neutral in their wording, Tivo is always the winner - even on the fan-boy dbstalk forum.

One poll I saw showed Tivo had a 3 to 1 higher acceptance level then the D* dvr, and the FIOS dvr was well below that.

In fact all the numbers show is that FIOS and D* are attracting customers - probably because of the HD channels, and in spite of the dvrs.

Your conclusion is like Microsoft saying that Vista is a total success because they are selling huge numbers, when in fact once again it's just the opposite. Vista has huge numbers because it is installed on new computers and the customer has no choice. In fact, their rack sales and business sales are lagging - people won't use if given the choice - the same as Tivo vs the other dvrs.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

RS4 said:


> Boy oh boy do you ever need a course in statistics Claiming that D*'s dvr is a total success just because D* is growing is so far off base that it's laughable.


??? What are you talking about. Fact: DirecTV's churn is very low despite going away from TiVo. Fact: DirecTV's numbers are growing.



> The only numbers that I've seen relating to the success of the D* dvr has been from polls comparing various dvr's. In all of those that are neutral in their wording, Tivo is always the winner - even on the fan-boy dbstalk forum.
> 
> One poll I saw showed Tivo had a 3 to 1 higher acceptance level then the D* dvr, and the FIOS dvr was well below that.


That just shows that people like TiVo better than the DirecTV DVR. The fact is that the HD DVR by DirecTV is good enough to keep customers from switching. It is perfectly fine for me. I would like to have a TiVo option but I doubt I would pay more to get it because the DirecTV's DVR works just fine.

Take a look at the poll taken in the Happy Hour regarding getting a content provider for a particular individual. Despite the only DVR offered by DirecTV not being a TiVo nearly 3/4 of the members voted that she should go with DirecTV. I find that amazing on a TiVo forum and it shows that DirecTVs DVR is more than good enough.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=386953&highlight=directv



> In fact all the numbers show is that FIOS and D* are attracting customers - probably because of the HD channels, and in spite of the dvrs.


Possibly but I would say that is still a success for D* and if their DVR was as bad as you claim many more people would jump ship. Sure some people, like yourself, have left D* due to the DVR but you are in the minority and are washed out by the many more who have come or stayed for the HD channels and the good enough DVR.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> Boy oh boy do you ever need a course in statistics Claiming that D*'s dvr is a total success just because D* is growing is so far off base that it's laughable.
> 
> The only numbers that I've seen relating to the success of the D* dvr has been from polls comparing various dvr's. In all of those that are neutral in their wording, Tivo is always the winner - even on the fan-boy dbstalk forum.
> 
> ...


Statistics = what do you want the answer to show?

You have a bad habit of agreeing with the "polls" that prove your point and saying that the "poll"s that disprove your points are incorrect and invalid. So statiscally your can be considered to be correct in some form or the other


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> Statistics = what do you want the answer to show?
> 
> You have a bad habit of agreeing with the "polls" that prove your point and saying that the "poll"s that disprove your points are incorrect and invalid. So statiscally your can be considered to be correct in some form or the other


No, I have a good habit of understanding how the wording on a poll can reflect it's outcome - such as 'do you still beat your wife? y/n' huh? That's how wording can impact the results.

There were a couple of polls on the dbstalk forum:
"If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700?". This is a straight-forward unbiased poll, especially when you consider where it was being asked.

Another poll on CNET or some other tech site asked something to the effect of 'which dvr do you prefer?' and then listed all of the dvrs - Tivo was the choice by 3 to 1 over the nearest competitor.

Those results are much more meaningful than trying to derive a conclusion based on net increases of customers. There is absolutely no correlation at all to the 'success' and 'acceptance' of a dvr, because both D* and FIOS offer one in-house dvr.

The conclusions I draw are more factual-based then the insinuations that you guys are making.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bigpuma said:


> ??? What are you talking about. Fact: DirecTV's churn is very low despite going away from TiVo. Fact: DirecTV's numbers are growing.
> 
> That just shows that people like TiVo better than the DirecTV DVR. The fact is that the HD DVR by DirecTV is good enough to keep customers from switching. It is perfectly fine for me. I would like to have a TiVo option but I doubt I would pay more to get it because the DirecTV's DVR works just fine.


You are once again drawing invalid conclusions based on some numbers. Think about, D* is not advertising their dvr - in fact I don't even think I've ever seen it in an ad, but I skip through ads, so perhaps they do. So, if D* doesn't advertise their dvr, how can you possibly draw a conclusion that the net growth of 200K plus is due to their dvr?

Secondly, how does churn relate to this discussion when D* has such an expensive ETF? Most customers aren't even close to the end of their ETF, and only when they are in significant numbers would we be able to conclude anything.



bigpuma said:


> ???Take a look at the poll taken in the Happy Hour regarding getting a content provider for a particular individual. Despite the only DVR offered by DirecTV not being a TiVo nearly 3/4 of the members voted that she should go with DirecTV. I find that amazing on a TiVo forum and it shows that DirecTVs DVR is more than good enough.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=386953&highlight=directv
> 
> Possibly but I would say that is still a success for D* and if their DVR was as bad as you claim many more people would jump ship. Sure some people, like yourself, have left D* due to the DVR but you are in the minority and are washed out by the many more who have come or stayed for the HD channels and the good enough DVR.


The survey you reference is a perfect example of of using numbers to back up a statement when the poll doesn't reflect the topic at hand. This poll never once mentioned Tivo - it didn't say "should I give up my Tivo and..." or "do you prefer the D* dvr or the E* dvr over Tivo?" Instead, the poll talked about services.

The only valid conclusion that one can make is that D* is growing because of HD and that is all you can conclude. To make any conclusions regarding the acceptance of the D* dvr using growth or other numbers is just an improper use of the facts.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

RS4 said:


> No, I have a good habit of understanding how the wording on a poll can reflect it's outcome - such as 'do you still beat your wife? y/n' huh? That's how wording can impact the results.
> 
> There were a couple of polls on the dbstalk forum:
> "If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700?". This is a straight-forward unbiased poll, especially when you consider where it was being asked.
> ...


Of course all those polls are saying is that among those who have used Tivo, they would prefer to keep using Tivo. Wow, big deal when you consider Tivo barely has 10% of the DVR market and that includes the DirecTivo's still in service. In other words to companies like DirecTV or Dish the poll in meaningless. Both have more customers on their own DVR platform then all of the Tivo platforms combined. And growing. They must be doing something right. Or just good enough anyway.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

RS4 said:


> Most customers aren't even close to the end of their ETF, and only when they are in significant numbers would we be able to conclude anything.


You do realize that the first R15 subs have been off their commitments for nearly a year now, right? I'd think we'd be seeing some effect of that terrible DVR in lost subs by now wouldn't you?

First HR20 subs come off commitment starting next month. Let's see what happens the next couple quarters. And if people were finding it that bad with only a few month left on the ETF they could just pay it for the cost of one month's programming fee if they wanted to get out that bad.

If the DVR was really that bad they wouldn't be growing. Either that or as has been pointed out over and over, the vast majority of people care about the content (i.e. HD) over what the DVR is. So what if Tivo is better? People just don't care. They want their channels and will take whatever is given them as a DVR. So if the real motivation of DirecTV was to save money (which you and others claim, they were greedy) then I guess they made the right call. With all the problems I see posted in the Comcast Tivo forum maybe Comcast made the wrong call by going with Tivo.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

> Of course all those polls are saying is that among those who have used Tivo, they would prefer to keep using Tivo. Wow, big deal when you consider Tivo barely has 10% of the DVR market and that includes the DirecTivo's still in service. In other words to companies like DirecTV or Dish the poll in meaningless. Both have more customers on their own DVR platform then all of the Tivo platforms combined. And growing. They must be doing something right. Or just good enough anyway.


What the polls show is what I have been saying all along - D* has turned away from the highest-rated dvr to something that is now considered second or third best. No matter how much you and others rave about the D* dvr, the numbers are just not with you when their dvr is compared to the Tivo.

The net is that the majority of former Tivo owners who stayed with D* are settling for second best - i.e. - a lesser valued product then what they had.



shibby191 said:


> ...
> 
> If the DVR was really that bad they wouldn't be growing. Either that or as has been pointed out over and over, the vast majority of people care about the content (i.e. HD) over what the DVR is. So what if Tivo is better? People just don't care. They want their channels and will take whatever is given them as a DVR. ...


What is wrong with someone on a Tivo forum pointing out using real numbers how Tivo is considered to be the top dog?

It's quite clear that you and the others that spend so much time on here are D* fanboys or perhaps 'encouraged' to be here. I really question what your motive is - you've dragged about as many Tivo owners as you can to a second-rated box.

The reality is that if all things were equal and D* did not have HD, they would not be growing at all. We all know that a very tiny number of new subs are signing up for their dvr. My suggestion is to go tout your second-rated box on forums where people enjoy that kind of thing. This is a Tivo forum and that means that most of the folks here care about the dvr.

Oh BTW, how's that DLB feature working out? I know D* cares about you so much that they must be working really hard to get that working... maybe by MPEG9


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

RS4 said:


> What the polls show is what I have been saying all along - D* has turned away from the highest-rated dvr to something that is now considered second or third best. No matter how much you and others rave about the D* dvr, the numbers are just not with you when their dvr is compared to the Tivo.
> 
> The net is that the majority of former Tivo owners who stayed with D* are settling for second best - i.e. - a lesser valued product then what they had.


Again, what is your point? So what if it's 2nd or 3rd "best" in the eyes of former Tivo owners. Do you think that for one minute that means anything to DirecTV if it their DVR continues to sell? Do the people who have it even care? If they don't care it's like the saying if a tree falls and no one sees it, did it really fall?

I mean most people would probably rank iTunes as and the iPod as the #1 rated music service and player. So is it bad or being a "fanboy" if someone where to like the Rhapsody service/player or Zune service/player better? Come on now, I think you are smarter then that.

Just because something is 2nd or 3rd rated doesn't mean it's *bad*. Again, you should be smarter then that unless I give you a lot more credit.



> What is wrong with someone on a Tivo forum pointing out using real numbers how Tivo is considered to be the top dog?


Absolutely nothing. But the numbers are self evident. Gee, Tivo users prefer Tivo. Film at 11. And they don't mean for one second that someone won't be happy with something other then Tivo. I might prefer a Mac and rank it #1 but I am perfectly happy using a PC or Linux instead. In fact the only reason I use a PC actually is because of my games which aren't available on Mac or Linux. Does that make me a PC fanboy? Hmmm, I use the DirecTV DVR because I prefer the channels on DirecTV. Does that make me a DirecTV fanboy? I make both my choices based on *content*. Maybe you don't, but I do.



> It's quite clear that you and the others that spend so much time on here are D* fanboys or perhaps 'encouraged' to be here. I really question what your motive is - you've dragged about as many Tivo owners as you can to a second-rated box.


Not at all. I could care less what anybody does. But to continually say that anything that isn't Tivo sucks is just short sited. And to not believe that anyone could actually be satisfied with a DVR that isn't Tivo is...well...just plain stupid. Again, I would think you're smarter then this.



> The reality is that if all things were equal and D* did not have HD, they would not be growing at all. We all know that a very tiny number of new subs are signing up for their dvr. My suggestion is to go tout your second-rated box on forums where people enjoy that kind of thing. This is a Tivo forum and that means that most of the folks here care about the dvr.


First, we don't know if they would be growing or not without HD. They were growing just fine when they had 9 HD channels for years compared to Dish's advantage. And has *anyone* in the general public ever signed up with a service for the DVR? Very few. Most people didn't sign up with DirecTV because of Tivo. Sure, some on this forum did but come on, the public at large DOES NOT CARE. It's amazing that you can't understand that outside this little forum of a few thousand posters, people just don't know what Tivo is.

The only "touting" I've ever done is to point out that Tivo isn't everything and the DirecTV DVR does it's job...for me. It records my shows and I can watch them. I don't need anything more then that. I don't need a cute Tivo guy bouncing on the screen while I choose the program to watch. Honestly I'd be satisfied with the FIOS DVR if it did the same thing. If that's being a fanboy then I'm guilty.



> Oh BTW, how's that DLB feature working out? I know D* cares about you so much that they must be working really hard to get that working... maybe by MPEG9


Well, since I could care less about DLB it's working out just fine. Wife cares not for DLB either. Guess what, we don't watch Live TV. What a concept for using a DVR.  If you can't live without DLB then there are other options for you. For me it's not even a top 20 item I care about thus I don't care.

And you might be happy to know that I am considering Uverse. It's in my city now but not in my area. As soon as available they will get an install in my home (mainly for the Internet) and if the TV portion and their DVR is up to snuff and I decide Sunday Ticket is just too much money and they offer me all the channels I need then I just might switch because it's cheaper. The DVR has nothing to do with this decision other then that their DVR needs to record my programs so that I can watch them.

Gee, what a simple DVR requirement. Tivo software not needed.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> What the polls show is what I have been saying all along - D* has turned away from the highest-rated dvr to something that is now considered second or third best. No matter how much you and others rave about the D* dvr, the numbers are just not with you when their dvr is compared to the Tivo.
> 
> The net is that the majority of former Tivo owners who stayed with D* are settling for second best - i.e. - a lesser valued product then what they had.
> 
> ...


No - the polls you select are showing what YOU want to prove, anything else that does not walk the thin red line that coincides with your thoughts and beliefs are "worded wrong" or "in some way or form deficeint in your eyes".

As far as dlb, would not know, never used it on the HR10, nor the wish list, don;t miss it - btw how is the content on your HR10?

"we all know that a very tiny number of new subs are signing up for the dvr" - as a matter of verifiable fact, I do *NOT* know, do you have some reputable source that can prove this fact? Like a poll that is correctly worded in your eyes?

"this is a tivo forum" yup - and still have a *Directv* HR10 Tivo unit in use, but the thing is - don;t really care if it is a tivo, a HR2X or a drunk monkey with a video camera, they all record programs, it is the quality of the content that is the primary line.

/snore


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

I'd like to add *just two little things* that are apparently going over at least one person's head.

*1) Polls.* Polls on the forums are not reliable. They are indicators, but highly-flawed indicators, of imperfect questions and as such yield little information of value, especially in the area being currently discussed here. They are also highly skewed to those with a high technical expertise and also by age, gender, and class, and are far from representative of media content consumers in general. They are also only what _those _people _say_ they will do or wish they could do, _not what they or those unrepresented by the polls actually end up doing_.

And what most people have actually done is given up the HR10, which was an extremely-impressive cutting-edge, reliable, user-friendly DVR in 2005 (and is now much-less reliable and much-less cutting edge) for the HD DVR, which is now THE cutting-edge DVR with equivalent expandability paths, better features, and of course, significantly better content selection with VOD, LIL HD, and CONUS MPEG-4 HD, all of which the venerable HR10 has never had and never will have.

*2) Numbers.* It is not about the numbers themselves, numbers are nothing more than numbers. It is about being able to accurately interpret the numbers regarding comparitive numbers for competitors and trends within the numbers (and interpret means interpret, not spin to fit an agenda) to accurately spot trends and truthfully indicate whether a company's direction is the proper, successful one, or the improper, unsuccessful one.

You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar or have a degree in statistics to be able to interpret that the numbers show quite clearly that the HD DVR is a resounding success and was a very shrewd business move by DTV, whether you are a Tivo lover or not, or whether you were rooting for them to fail or not. The game is over, and they won.

There are things about the HR10 that will always be fondly remembered as being really super, and some features may never be matched, but the HD DVR is a true contender, and will obviously usurp the HR10 in time, if it hasn't already. The HR10 is well-loved, but it's time had come and gone, and thankfully, the successor is worthy of the throne (we were all genuinely pretty worried about that for a time).

The king is dead...long live the king.


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## T1V0 (Jun 14, 2006)

i had cereal for breakfast


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> I'd like to add *just two little things* that are apparently going over at least one person's head.
> 
> *1) Polls.* Polls on the forums are not reliable. They are indicators, but highly-flawed indicators, of imperfect questions and as such yield little information of value, especially in the area being currently discussed here. They are also highly skewed to those with a high technical expertise and also by age, gender, and class, and are far from representative of media content consumers in general. They are also only what _those _people _say_ they will do or wish they could do, _not what they or those unrepresented by the polls actually end up doing_.
> 
> ...


I'm not quite sure what you are referring to when you say HD DVR, but if you mean D*'s, you have absolutely no proof of that at all. All you can point to is that some clients have gotten a D* dvr, and are locked in for 2 years.

It's sort of like the robber who gets $200 from the store, but he doesn't get caught for 2 years. Was that success? Well, by your standards yes.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

RS4 said:


> I'm not quite sure what you are referring to when you say HD DVR, but if you mean D*'s, you have absolutely no proof of that at all. All you can point to is that some clients have gotten a D* dvr, and are locked in for 2 years.


I have an HR20-700 that I own with no "lock in". Where would I fit in your statistics?


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

RS4 said:


> I'm not quite sure what you are referring to when you say HD DVR, but if you mean D*'s, you have absolutely no proof of that at all. All you can point to is that some clients have gotten a D* dvr, and are locked in for 2 years.
> 
> It's sort of like the robber who gets $200 from the store, but he doesn't get caught for 2 years. Was that success? Well, by your standards yes.


The statistics reported in their quarterly results is that well over 50% of all new subs get advanced products (HD and DVR).

Over 7 million of their 17 million subs now have advanced products.

By the way, their growth trend has been ongoing for a few years. HD is certainly help it stay strong but it's not like they were all that bad before they launched all the HD.

Look, you can make them look bad all you want (i.e. people not knowing what they are getting "stuck" in a commitment) but the numbers are the numbers. And has been pointed out I don't know how many times, the original R15 users have been off commitment for over a year. As bad as the R15 was at first you'd think there would be an exodus in the past year but nope, just the opposite.

I really don't know why you care, you're not even with DirecTV anymore. They are growing and most other providers are not. If the DVR was really that bad they would not be just by word of mouth.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

RS4 said:


> I'm not quite sure what you are referring to when you say HD DVR...


It's pretty obvious to the rest of us that you are not quite sure what any of us are referring to at any time.


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## jfischer (Oct 14, 1999)

Jon J said:


> I have an HR20-700 that I own with no "lock in". Where would I fit in your statistics?


How'd you pull that off? I didn't think any of the HR20's were ever offered without being a lease.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

jfischer said:


> How'd you pull that off? I didn't think any of the HR20's were ever offered without being a lease.


You can buy an HR20/HR21 HD DVR without any lease commitment from DirecTV. Last time I checked it then costs ~$600 instead of $200.


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## jfischer (Oct 14, 1999)

litzdog911 said:


> You can buy an HR20/HR21 HD DVR without any lease commitment from DirecTV. Last time I checked it then costs ~$600 instead of $200.


Interesting, I hadn't heard that before.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> It's pretty obvious to the rest of us that you are not quite sure what any of us are referring to at any time.


Well that could be true - statements that were made about D* not growing a few years ago from the Tivo crowd recommendations is just not true. I've been on this forum for years and I remembering reading about how family and friends signed up for D* just because of Tivo. I haven't seen that kind of thing happening with D*'s new dvr.

Your implications that the D* dvr is successful and driving business just doesn't make sense. You don't have numbers pointing to how many people joined D* just because of the dvr. You're trying to correlate growth numbers with 'success'. In my mind, success means the dvr is adding business. You can't prove that.

The only thing the numbers prove is that D* is growing with a second-rate dvr, and that they used to sell the best.

As many folks point out and I agree, the dvr is not the overwhelming reason people pick a video service, so growth numbers have no direct relationship to the 'success' of the dvr.

But the fact remains that this is a Tivo forum. So, most of the folks here are used to the best. And my pointing out that they are moving to a second-rated box is more factually accurate than anything the rest of you are saying.

As I mentioned earlier, if you had taken a course in statistics, you would realize that polls can be constructed to be neutral and therefore achieve valid results. The polls that I have referenced many times fall in that category. And they are the only accurate measurement I've seen to date.

D* has a closed market. If someone becomes a sub and wants an HD dvr, they must get the one and only box offered. Is that generating new business for D* like the Tivo clearly did? Based on the facts, I sort of doubt it.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

jfischer said:


> How'd you pull that off? I didn't think any of the HR20's were ever offered without being a lease.


With the Protection Plan, defective owned equipment is replaced with owned equipment and no commitment extension.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> Well that could be true - statements that were made about D* not growing a few years ago from the Tivo crowd recommendations is just not true. I've been on this forum for years and I remembering reading about how family and friends signed up for D* just because of Tivo. I haven't seen that kind of thing happening with D*'s new dvr.
> 
> Your implications that the D* dvr is successful and driving business just doesn't make sense. You don't have numbers pointing to how many people joined D* just because of the dvr. You're trying to correlate growth numbers with 'success'. In my mind, success means the dvr is adding business. You can't prove that.
> 
> ...


/rofl

second rate dvr - again your opinion..

"As many folks point out and I agree, the dvr is not the overwhelming reason people pick a video service"

At least we have something we agree on - the DVR is *NOT* a primary reason to change services, content is the primary reason, which is why the majority of us and the large amount of new subscribers picj directv over comjunk, or charter for our TV service.

Actually the only accurate number to prove anything is from the financials, polls mean nothing and have no basis in fact. Financials are looked at by FINRA and the SEC depending on the where the company trades


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

RS4 said:


> ...if you had taken a course in statistics, you would realize that polls can be constructed to be neutral and therefore achieve valid results...


Actually, I have taken courses in statistics, as part of a Liberal Arts college education, and I found them very interesting. That's how I know that what you are saying about how they can be manipulated is nothing more than horse puckey. You don't know me, and what I may or may not know about the subject.

But as long as we are allowed to make such assumptions, apparently it is you who either have not taken such a course or were too busy smoking something somewhere else, or you would have realized that the primary goal of statistics is accuracy--to get to the truth, and not to provide fodder for those trying desperately to selectively support a failed or weak agenda.

Polls can indeed be constructed neutrally. They just aren't, especially by amateurs on the internet. Polling has proper technique and approach, just like anything else, to get it right. That's exactly why the ones you see here are so flawed and useless.

Once again, interpretation is not spin. The art of interpretation is agnostic, and has neither an agenda nor a preconceived idea of the results. The results can be spun, or manipulated or bent to tell a non-truth, but if you know how to interpret the numbers, spin is irrelevant, and is easily unmasked for just what it is.

The numbers speak for themselves if you_ know how_ to listen. Those who do have already pointed out what they are saying right here in this thread, but some _just won't_ listen.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

RS4 said:


> As many folks point out and I agree, the dvr is not the overwhelming reason people pick a video service, so growth numbers have no direct relationship to the 'success' of the dvr.


Of course the DVR is not the only reason why people choose DirecTV. It is a combination of factors. The DVR is definitely part of it. Many more former DirecTiVo owners would bail on DirecTV if their DVR was not good enough. However there are lots of examples on this forum alone where people stick with DirecTV over TiVo because their DVR works fine. Sure it may not have all of the features of TiVo but it records tv shows which for most DVR users is all they care about.


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## stargazer_guy (Apr 21, 2008)

There is one thing for sure: DirecTV would have more customers if it offered both a Tivo DVR and the HR21.


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## restart88 (Mar 9, 2002)

stargazer_guy said:


> There is one thing for sure: DirecTV would have more customers if it offered both a Tivo DVR and the HR21.


Wishful thinking, I believe. While perhaps technically correct, I'm sure they'd gain at least 1 or 2 more subscribers, these days I'm not certain that such a move back to Tivo would have the the impact to make it worth the trouble. Perhaps if there were major issues with cable or some "must have" programming were the question, which they don't _need_ Tivo to be attractive in those areas anyway.

That said I generally like Tivo and it is still cheaper for me than a cableco DVR would be regardless of the quality of the cable unit. But most folks are ok with that cost because of no upfront cost and defects are easily replaced. With DBS you still have the upfront costs, Tivo or not, plus fees left & right. And as cable improves DBS will have more competitive problems than just Tivo availability.

So the 1 competitive edge DBS has is it's programming that cable does not offer. And if programming is the issue it doesn't too much matter as long as the DVR isn't constantly buggy.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

stargazer_guy said:


> There is one thing for sure: DirecTV would have more customers if it offered both a Tivo DVR and the HR21.


Nope. As we already established, most people (i.e. Joe Sixpack) don't choose a provider based on the DVR. *All* DVRs are Tivo to 99% of the population. Yea, they may pick up a few because of Tivo but it's all in the wash of millions involved in leaving and signing up every year.


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## ClubrhythmEnt (Apr 2, 2003)

John,

I completely agree with just about everything you said. :up:

In my opinion DirecTV's new HD DVRs are, by any objective standard, completely inferior to an HD TiVo product from a useability and learning curve standpoint.

To those of you who feel differently...consider this first:

For the purposes of this thread being _objective_ means taking into consideration that the HR10-250 (and all DirecTivos) are fairly old. Not John McCain old mind you, but old nevertheless. The technology in the HR10 and other DirecTivos was cutting-edge at the time it was released but the TiVo OS has progressed by leaps and bounds since then and due to all the on- again off-again relationship issues between TiVo and DirecTV the HR10 in particular has pretty much been left behind.

All the new technologies introduced in the TiVo Series3 never made their way into the DirecTivo line. Small software patches notwithstanding, the suppport provided to the line to keep pace with the global progresses in DVR technology has been non-existant. For this reason it is *simply unfair *to compare a brand new DirecTV DVR to a Series2 (or Series1) DirecTivo DVR like the HR10-250.

If you really want a fair comparison then pit your new DirecTV DVR against a Tivo Series3 DVR...TiVo is consistantly ranked as the #1 consumer choice in DVR purchases. TiVo pioneered the home DVR revolution and has won an Emmy for its innovative service. Over 91% of TiVo users would recommend it to their friends and over 81% of TiVo users would give up their iPod before their TiVo DVR. I doubt the same will EVER be said of DirecTV's DVR solution.

Every survey reflects that the vast majority of customers are DISSATISFIED with the the DirecTV DVR hardware.

The TiVo Series3 lets you download thousands of movies and TV shows from Amazon Unbox, listen to millions of songs with the Rhapsody music service, share photos and home movies with friends & family (and view them on the TV), and transfer your favorite TV shows to your laptop or iPod using your PC or Mac. Can the DirecTV DVR do all that? No!

Now, where the debate really heats up is when someone says that their old HR10-250 is "better" on its worst day than an HR20 is on its best day...This is a matter of opinion. I personally wish I had media sharing and MPEG4 support on my HR10, but I don't and I am going to keep sending the message as loudly as possible to DirecTV that I would rather stop paying for HD channels at the end of the year than become just another one of the sheeple who gives up on the TiVo DirecTV alliance.

I became a DirecTV customer so many years ago because of the TiVo infomercials that seemed to be everywhere back then and if DirecTV does not live up to its commitment to customers like me I may leave DirecTV because of TiVo too.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

Well said.

As I have posted previously, I'm happy with my current setup, and until something changes I'll stay with my HR10-250 and D. Now, If I had the option of a new HD TiVo from D I'd be very tempted to try some of the new channels, as I have said there are one or two that interest me, not much more than that. It's not worth it to me to pay the HD fee, plus buy new equipment that does not seem attractive to me. If I was attracted to the new DVR I'd probably pop for the extra $$, but at this point D is not getting any more money from me, if anything I'll be scaling back my package.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

ClubrhythmEnt said:


> TiVo is consistantly ranked as the #1 consumer choice in DVR purchases. TiVo pioneered the home DVR revolution and has won an Emmy for its innovative service. Over 91% of TiVo users would recommend it to their friends and over 81% of TiVo users would give up their iPod before their TiVo DVR. I doubt the same will EVER be said of DirecTV's DVR solution.


What's funny is while what you say may be true as has been pointed out being "number 1" doesn't matter one bit in the marketplace. Doesn't explain why Tivo's sub numbers keep shrinking (and I'm talking about stand alone subs, not just DirecTivo subs). People just aren't buying the Tivo, even if it is #1 rated and everyone who has one loves it religiously. There are less then 4 million Tivo units in service out there and over half are DirecTivo's. Less then 2 million stand alone Tivo's...and shrinking or holding steady. Think about that. Tivo once owned the market. Now they have barely 5% of the market, 10% if you count the DirecTivo's. And with all the problems with the Comcast Tivo that may not be growing any time soon.

People just don't care if Tivo is #1. People think all DVRs are Tivo. All my friends that have a cable DVR or the Dish DVR think they have Tivo.

So Tivo is great. Awesome. But the public isn't buying it. The public isn't going to buy a stand alone product for hundreds of dollars and pay a separate subscription fee over cable. People will take whatever DVR their provider gives them, period. Tivo knows this which is why they are trying to get an integrated box going with cable. I used to have 4 Tivo's in the house. Now down to 1. I have 2 DirecTV DVRs in the house now. They do their job. Maybe they are "inferior" to the Tivo as you say. But they record my shows and I watch them. Am I supposed to feel inferior if it does it's job? I don't need the dancing Tivo guy on my screen to watch CSI for crying out loud. What more do I need? I'm waiting for someone to tell me...

There is nothing wrong with preferring Tivo. Nothing at all. But it's not the end all/be all of DVRs and most people get what they need from whatever cable and sat give them. They see no benefit to paying a premium up front or monthly for Tivo even if it's rated #1 in satisfaction. Why some of you can't see this yourselves is beyond me.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

ClubrhythmEnt said:


> For the purposes of this thread being _objective_ means taking into consideration that the HR10-250 (and all DirecTivos) are fairly old. Not John McCain old mind you, but old nevertheless. The technology in the HR10 and other DirecTivos was cutting-edge at the time it was released but the TiVo OS has progressed by leaps and bounds since then and due to all the on- again off-again relationship issues between TiVo and DirecTV the HR10 in particular has pretty much been left behind.


I have to differ on this perspective.

From a sheer DVR point of view, the HD Tivo is not very much different at all from the HR10. Especially now that the HR10 has been upgraded to include recently deleted programs.

I have an HD Tivo and had an HR10 until last year. Yes, Tivo has added bells and whistles like Unbox and integration with PCs but how many regular users actually use stuff like that? Not many. (And the DirecTV DVR has that stuff, too.)

From a sheer record and watch functionality, the HD Tivo feels almost exactly like my HR10 did. A few polished menus and such but nothing dramatically different. So, your point that the HR10 is "old" actually damns the Tivo in general as pretty much nothing has changed since the first Tivo was rolled out.

Other than dual live buffers, I have actually come to prefer my HR20s and HR21 to my HD Tivo. That may be a matter of taste but I have had fewer lockups, fewer stutters, fewer oddities (like live pictures freezing when channing a channel unless I hit the skip button) with my DirecTV DVRs.

I love Tivo for what they did to the industry. But I am realistic in knowing that different folks have different tastes and experiences will vary, but to compare the HR10 to the HR2x series is far game as long as you are talking what the vast majority of folks will be using a DVR for.....timeshifting.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Here's my 2 scents:

I specifically switched from cable to Direct BECAUSE of the dual-tuner Tivo. I was reasonably happy with cable otherwise. The price was similar to Direct, and the content that I cared about was more or less the same on either provider.

One reason I might have to leave is if I percieved the Direct was trying to screw me. Forcing an inferior POS [0] on me would qualify as "screwing" in my book, and I'd leave them, even if the alternative non-Tivo DVRs weren't any better. It's not JUST the DVR, but if it WAS crap, I would not be very happy with Direct.

[0] I've never tried Direct DVRs, so I don't know if they're as bad as everyone says.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

allan said:


> Here's my 2 scents:
> 
> I specifically switched from cable to Direct BECAUSE of the dual-tuner Tivo. I was reasonably happy with cable otherwise. The price was similar to Direct, and the content that I cared about was more or less the same on either provider.
> 
> ...


Who is this *everyone* you speak of?

Is it RS4 who has some sort of deeply seeded grudge and axe to grind against DirecTV?

Is it another similar user?

Or, is it someone like myself, or a bunch of other people who have said repeatedly that the HR20 and HR21 boxes are perfectly acceptable HD DVRs that perform the functions they are required to do just fine.

The biggest differences between the HR10 (TiVo based HD DVR which is not capable of receiving MPEG4 channels) and the HR20/HR21 boxes are:


HR10 offers TiVo suggestions feature, HR20/HR21 do not.
HR10 offers dual live buffers, HR20/HR21 do not.
HR10 can not receive MPEG4 channels from satellite, HR20/HR21 can.
HR10 has a higher limit on number of season passes, HR20/HR21 cap at 50 series links (season passes).
HR10 doesn't show a picture-in-guide, HR20/HR21 do make use of the PiG feature.

That is pretty much the difference between them at this point. If you don't have to have the suggestions feature, don't care about live buffers, and can deal with managing season passes so you stay below the cap, it really isn't that big a deal and the boxes work very well.

The HR10 was never offered without a commitment period unless you purchased one. Once the boxes moved to being leased instead of sold that difference was gone (the HR20/HR21 require commitment periods in just about all cases as they are normally leased, not sold to customers).


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bdowell said:


> Who is this *everyone* you speak of?
> 
> Is it RS4 who has some sort of deeply seeded grudge and axe to grind against DirecTV?
> 
> ...


You and so many others missed the main difference between the boxes - the User Interface - Tivo - elegant in it's simplicity - HR2x - cludgy - requiring a computer/internet knowledge. One example - just look at all of the extra keys on the HR2x remote vs the Tivo - that's pc mentality. Tivo has hidden all of the 'pc' stuff. They just don't need it. It's far simpler to navigate.

No matter what spin you guys put on this thing, Tivo users prefer the Tivo. We continue to read here and other places of Tivo users wanting the Tivo instead of what D* offers. I know you guys can't stand it that you've had to settle for second (or third best), especially when you were used to the best, but them's the facts


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

shibby191 said:


> What's funny is while what you say may be true as has been pointed out being "number 1" doesn't matter one bit in the marketplace. Doesn't explain why Tivo's sub numbers keep shrinking (and I'm talking about stand alone subs, not just DirecTivo subs). People just aren't buying the Tivo, even if it is #1 rated and everyone who has one loves it religiously. There are less then 4 million Tivo units in service out there and over half are DirecTivo's. Less then 2 million stand alone Tivo's...and shrinking or holding steady. Think about that. Tivo once owned the market. Now they have barely 5% of the market, 10% if you count the DirecTivo's. And with all the problems with the Comcast Tivo that may not be growing any time soon.
> 
> People just don't care if Tivo is #1. People think all DVRs are Tivo. All my friends that have a cable DVR or the Dish DVR think they have Tivo.
> 
> ...


Could you by chance show us the numbers that says Tivo is losing standalone clients? I think you may have trouble with that

The big question I have for you is if you could care less about what dvr you use, why do you spend so much time in this forum defending your second-rated box Most of us here obviously do care about the dvr - that's why we're here, and we won't settle for second best if we have alternatives


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> You and so many others missed the main difference between the boxes - the User Interface - Tivo - elegant in it's simplicity - HR2x - cludgy - requiring a computer/internet knowledge. One example - just look at all of the extra keys on the HR2x remote vs the Tivo - that's pc mentality. Tivo has hidden all of the 'pc' stuff. They just don't need it. It's far simpler to navigate.
> 
> No matter what spin you guys put on this thing, Tivo users prefer the Tivo. We continue to read here and other places of Tivo users wanting the Tivo instead of what D* offers. I know you guys can't stand it that you've had to settle for second (or third best), especially when you were used to the best, but them's the facts


Windows 3.0 Tivo, block graphics that went out with pakman. As always, the comment - settling for second best is in your opinion.

HR10 to get the functionality of the HR20's require extensive computer knowledge on how to hack the OS


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> Actually, I have taken courses in statistics, as part of a Liberal Arts college education, and I found them very interesting. That's how I know that what you are saying about how they can be manipulated is nothing more than horse puckey. You don't know me, and what I may or may not know about the subject.
> 
> But as long as we are allowed to make such assumptions, apparently it is you who either have not taken such a course or were too busy smoking something somewhere else, or you would have realized that the primary goal of statistics is accuracy--to get to the truth, and not to provide fodder for those trying desperately to selectively support a failed or weak agenda.
> 
> ...


Lots of huffin' and puffin' - why don't you point to the numbers showing us where consumers picked D* because of their awesome dvr?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> Windows 3.0 Tivo, block graphics that went out with pakman. As always, the comment - settling for second best is in your opinion.
> 
> HR10 to get the functionality of the HR20's require extensive computer knowledge on how to hack the OS


I work with a computer all day long - don't need another one at night:down: I'm not sure why the D* remote needs 12 more keys than the Tivo? Oh yeah, on this screen yellow means go here, on that screen yellow is used for something different. Why fiddle with all of that stuff when you can just select from the menu using arrow keys?? Simplistic elegance works best every time:up:


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## clbish (Nov 28, 2007)

bdowell said:


> The biggest differences between the HR10 (TiVo based HD DVR which is not capable of receiving MPEG4 channels) and the HR20/HR21 boxes are:
> 
> 
> HR10 offers TiVo suggestions feature, HR20/HR21 do not.
> ...


Our box is starting to have issues due to some storms that went through and has to be replaced. We were considering going to the new DVR for more HD content with DTV, but this could break the deal. That is the craziest thing I have heard. Why would they not have dual live buffers?


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

clbish said:


> Our box is starting to have issues due to some storms that went through and has to be replaced. We were considering going to the new DVR for more HD content with DTV, but this could break the deal. That is the craziest thing I have heard. Why would they not have dual live buffers?


You'd be surprised how you can get along without dual live buffers.

There's a simple enough 'work around' documented nicely at DBSTalk. Basically setup two recordings and switch between the recordings where you can keep resuming from where you last stopped watching at.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

RS4 said:


> You and so many others missed the main difference between the boxes - the User Interface - Tivo - elegant in it's simplicity - HR2x - cludgy - requiring a computer/internet knowledge. One example - just look at all of the extra keys on the HR2x remote vs the Tivo - that's pc mentality. Tivo has hidden all of the 'pc' stuff. They just don't need it. It's far simpler to navigate.
> 
> No matter what spin you guys put on this thing, Tivo users prefer the Tivo. We continue to read here and other places of Tivo users wanting the Tivo instead of what D* offers. I know you guys can't stand it that you've had to settle for second (or third best), especially when you were used to the best, but them's the facts


This is the part where we get to remind the audience here THAT RS4 HAS NEVER USED AN HR20/HR21 and has absolutely no first hand experience on what any of the buttons on the remote control do, or about how the user interface works or really compares.

Then RS4 comes back and says it's all because DirecTV wouldn't let him 'test drive' a box without having him commit to a two year contract so he just left 'em in the lurch and ever since they've been bleeding customers at such an alarming rate that they'll never recover and will be out of business in like, oh, maybe another month or two.

Again, shut it. You have no clue what you are talking about as the remote controls are quite similar. Similar enough that the remote controls for the HR20/HR21 also serve as remote controls for the DirecTV DVRs that use TiVo software (ooops!!!) though they include some extra buttons to switch the audio, change to the mini-guide, bring up extra content (Active content), or perform other functions that the TiVo based DVRs couldn't or wouldn't do.

On the DirecTV remote controls the buttons are clearly labelled and are rarely used to perform multiple tasks. On the TiVo remote the buttons are less clearly labelled and several buttons do different tasks depending on context which leaves customers more confused in many cases.

As to the other UI differences it takes virtually no time to determine what does what on the DirecTV boxes, much like the TiVo based boxes. The interfaces are not that radically different from each other and anyone that is comfortable with one would be zipping right along with the other fairly easily. Of course that possible difference was too much for some people to accept without demanding a free trial over and over and over again until people were sick enough of it to say repeatedly SHUT IT.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

clbish said:


> Our box is starting to have issues due to some storms that went through and has to be replaced. We were considering going to the new DVR for more HD content with DTV, but this could break the deal. That is the craziest thing I have heard. Why would they not have dual live buffers?


Just to clarify the HR20/21 has dual tuners but it doesn't have the live buffers on both tuners like the HR10. Both DVRs will record 2 programs at once. The downside is you can't jump back and forth easily between the buffers but as bdowell stated there is a work around for this on the HR20/21.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

clbish said:


> Our box is starting to have issues due to some storms that went through and has to be replaced. We were considering going to the new DVR for more HD content with DTV, but this could break the deal. That is the craziest thing I have heard. Why would they not have dual live buffers?


Direct rushed this box to market and came out with an imitation that has been undergoing weekly fixes since the fall of 2006. They were planning on using an HD dvr from another company controlled by Rupert Murdoch who controlled Direct. That box failed miserably and Direct was left scrambling.

The result is a box that was built by a video service business instead of the box they were using that was built by a dvr company. Polls, news reports, and internet forums including this one, continually show that a majority of Tivo users don't like the Direct box as well as the Tivo. But, if you're going to stay with Direct and get HD, you'll be forced into their box.

Some will tell you there is a workaround for DLB, but many Tivo users say it is not comparable to what they were used to. It appears to be the number one requested feature, yet after 2 years, it's still not here, but rest assured Direct has their clients interest (i.e. wallet) in mind.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bdowell said:


> This is the part where we get to remind the audience here THAT RS4 HAS NEVER USED AN HR20/HR21 and has absolutely no first hand experience on what any of the buttons on the remote control do, or about how the user interface works or really compares.
> 
> Then RS4 comes back and says it's all because DirecTV wouldn't let him 'test drive' a box without having him commit to a two year contract so he just left 'em in the lurch and ever since they've been bleeding customers at such an alarming rate that they'll never recover and will be out of business in like, oh, maybe another month or two.
> 
> ...


You have no idea what stores I've been to or what research I've looked at, so it's pretty rash to say that I've never used one. It's totally ridiculous to say that a person needs to own the device in order to make a decision about its acceptance and usability.

The numbers would indicate that I represent a higher number of Tivo users than you. This forum as well as others are full of folks pointing out how Tivo is written for the masses while the D* dvr is written for computer users.

What we see is a company that had no confidence in their box, so much so that one could not test it in their own home for even 15 days without committing to spend $480 for the privilege of the test.

This is a Tivo forum first and foremost, and the discussions here are about Tivo. It makes perfect sense to compare the Tivo to the other dvrs. I feel sorry for the folks that have been duped into getting the D* dvr based on stuff they've read here from the D* fanboys.

The last public poll I read showed Tivo had a higher rating over any other dvr by 3 to 1, including D*, so the numbers would indicate I speak for 3 times more folks than you.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

RS4 said:


> The result is a box that was built by a video service business instead of the box they were using that was built by a dvr company. Polls, news reports, and internet forums including this one, continually show that a majority of Tivo users don't like the Direct box as well as the Tivo.


Still don't get your point. So what? Tivo users like Tivo. DUH.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

RS4 said:


> What we see is a company that had no confidence in their box, so much so that one could not test it in their own home for even 15 days without committing to spend $480 for the privilege of the test.


Of course you continue to forget that commitments started long before the DirecTV DVR came about. There were commitments on the HR10, at least the last couple years of it's release. Heck, my last couple SD DirecTivo's (Hughes and an R10) I activated had commitments on them. And that was a long time ago.

So I guess there was no confidence in the Tivo either.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> You have no idea what stores I've been to or what research I've looked at, so it's pretty rash to say that I've never used one. It's totally ridiculous to say that a person needs to own the device in order to make a decision about its acceptance and usability.
> 
> The numbers would indicate that I represent a higher number of Tivo users than you. This forum as well as others are full of folks pointing out how Tivo is written for the masses while the D* dvr is written for computer users.
> 
> ...


Ok, then if you did your research and experimentation well enough to make these statements the why are/where you so hung up on no "free" trial? If you can make these statements with certainty then you never did noeed a free trial.

One point of qualification, while this is a on a tivo it is a Directv Tivo forum whcih the moderators have pointed out that it is accepatable to post questions and discussions about Directv DVR's. That is if you want to be 100 percent accurte in your statements.

Public polls are inaccurate by their design and conception - especially the ones that have no controlls over how many times a person can vote tehir opinion, all it takes is making a few dozed email addresses on the various free email services and creating logons to the forum that is holding the poll


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I work with a computer all day long - don't need another one at night:down: I'm not sure why the D* remote needs 12 more keys than the Tivo? Oh yeah, on this screen yellow means go here, on that screen yellow is used for something different. Why fiddle with all of that stuff when you can just select from the menu using arrow keys?? Simplistic elegance works best every time:up:


So do I - which is why I have no desire to have to hack the OS to get the same functionality the H2X has, I hack OS's and security packages for a living. Don't have much use for a KISS principal design in electronics


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

shibby191 said:


> Still don't get your point. So what? Tivo users like Tivo. DUH.


Oh, I'm quite sure you get the point

Most of the participants on this forum are open and honest... others, well I assume they have different motivations


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

shibby191 said:


> Of course you continue to forget that commitments started long before the DirecTV DVR came about. There were commitments on the HR10, at least the last couple years of it's release. Heck, my last couple SD DirecTivo's (Hughes and an R10) I activated had commitments on them. And that was a long time ago.
> 
> So I guess there was no confidence in the Tivo either.


As I recall there was a 30-day trial program and the ETF wasn't so exorbitant. D* new they were using a top-rated dvr in the Tivo. They only started the bullying when it was just their boxes being sent to clients.:down:


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> Ok, then if you did your research and experimentation well enough to make these statements the why are/where you so hung up on no "free" trial? If you can make these statements with certainty then you never did noeed a free trial.


What would you have me do - camp out at the Best Buy for 30 days?



> One point of qualification, while this is a on a tivo it is a Directv Tivo forum whcih the moderators have pointed out that it is accepatable to post questions and discussions about Directv DVR's. That is if you want to be 100 percent accurte in your statements.


Yes, I believe in accuracy. The posts are allowed when the discussion relates to Tivo, as this thread does.



> Public polls are inaccurate by their design and conception - especially the ones that have no controlls over how many times a person can vote tehir opinion, all it takes is making a few dozed email addresses on the various free email services and creating logons to the forum that is holding the poll


Of course you and I both know that isn't the case with the 3 polls I quoted. Two of the polls were on the fanboy dbstalk forum with hundreds of people responding. The public poll I referenced was neutral in it's question and again had hundreds of respondents.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

sjberra said:


> So do I - which is why I have no desire to have to hack the OS to get the same functionality the H2X has, I hack OS's and security packages for a living. Don't have much use for a KISS principal design in electronics


I'm not sure what hacking you're referring to - I didn't have to hack my Tivo HD's to get all of the features that D* now seems intent on copying.

What we have here is a company that has spent the last 3 or 4 years trying to imitate the leader - and for what purpose - a dollar more per subscriber? In the mean time, their customers are now stuck with a lower-tier rated experience.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I'm not sure what hacking you're referring to - I didn't have to hack my Tivo HD's to get all of the features that D* now seems intent on copying.
> 
> What we have here is a company that has spent the last 3 or 4 years trying to imitate the leader - and for what purpose - a dollar more per subscriber? In the mean time, their customers are now stuck with a lower-tier rated experience.


Hmm - wasn't discussing them since this is a DIRECTV Tivo forum which points directly at a HR10-250, not a HD_TIVO, last time I looked those where for providers like comjunk and the such. Unless you have a super secret method of way of running that unit on a Directv configuation with 100 full functionality.

Again in your opinion only, do not feel I am "stuck with a lower-tiered" device, while you do, although you would rather settle for a lower-tiered content provider.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> What would you have me do - camp out at the Best Buy for 30 days?


Hmm in post 84 you stated

"You have no idea what stores I've been to or what research I've looked at, so it's pretty rash to say that I've never used one. It's totally ridiculous to say that a person needs to own the device in order to make a decision about its acceptance and usability."

So you are saying you made a judgement call either with

1. lack of accurate information
or
2. you had sufficient information without the 30 day free trial to make the accurate judgement call



RS4 said:


> Yes, I believe in accuracy. The posts are allowed when the discussion relates to Tivo, as this thread does.


If you belived in accurancy you would not be citing polls that have no internal controls to prevent people from voting multiple times. In there is no such control in place then it is innaccurate by design. IE if someone has 6 email addresses they can sign up for logons to the poll forums 6 times and vote six times, that in itself invalidates any accuracy you think thiere is



RS4 said:


> Of course you and I both know that isn't the case with the 3 polls I quoted. Two of the polls were on the fanboy dbstalk forum with hundreds of people responding. The public poll I referenced was neutral in it's question and again had hundreds of respondents.


Sorry no, I do not know that is the case, have no supporting documentation to provide the basis for any verification of accuracy of the poll. If you have it can you please supply it in verifiable form?

Again, 6 email addresses = 6 logons = 6 votes in for what every way you want to alter the outcome of the poll. Question for you - can you prove that those hundreds of respondents did not have a portion of them being the same person with a different logon to the forum?

Unlike you, I take nothing at face value unless there is verifiable supporting documentation. Spend to much time using Title 21 Code of Federal Regulations (21 CFR Part 11) for verification of electronic documentation to believe otherwise.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

sjberra said:


> Spend to much time using Title 21 Code of Federal Regulations (21 CFR Part 11)


You just gave me shivers. I spend too much time with 21 CFR Part 11 for my taste.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

shibby191 said:


> You just gave me shivers. I spend too much time with 21 CFR Part 11 for my taste.


Know what you mean. The updated CSV is even worse


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## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

eric_n_dfw said:


> ... continuing from my last post (in case anyone cares), the Dish installers came back out and re-aimed the dish and it now appears to be stable.
> 
> The DVR interface is nowhere near as intuitive as Tivo's and it has a few quirks but we're slowing learning how best to use it.
> 
> ...


Well, after about 2 months with the Dish DVR, my wife and I have decided to buy a Tivo HD and deal with Time Warner. I'll be out the $50 activation fee, but we're just not happy with their DVR.

The Dish picture quality was pretty darn good but we still had a few dropouts with very mild weather; my standard def' DTV setup took all-out hail storms to have those problems. (I assume the reason is that it's harder to keep signal lock from multiple satellites for HD content than it was for the single on on DTV.)

The main kicker, though, was the Dish DVR software. While nowhere near as hideous as the AT&T Uverse UI, this one just didn't feel as well thought out as Tivo; a lot of that is probably because I've got 5+ years of experience with the Tivo UI though, but it just seems that things are more intuitive on the Tivo. (kind of like the complaints Mac OS users users have when they have to use Windows I guess) It also has missed recording many shows and/or parts of them which is infuriating!

I really wish DTV would have offered a no-commitment trial of their HD DVR so I could give it a fair shot but they've effectively told me to go elsewhere by dropping Tivo and not having the guts to offer even a 30-day trial. If UVerse (as crappy as it's DVR is), Tivo, Time-Warner and Dish all can do it, why can't DTV?


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

eric_n_dfw said:


> Well, after about 2 months with the Dish DVR, my wife and I have decided to buy a Tivo HD and deal with Time Warner. I'll be out the $50 activation fee, but we're just not happy with their DVR.
> 
> The Dish picture quality was pretty darn good but we still had a few dropouts with very mild weather; my standard def' DTV setup took all-out hail storms to have those problems. (I assume the reason is that it's harder to keep signal lock from multiple satellites for HD content than it was for the single on on DTV.)
> 
> ...


You do realize that DirecTv was offering a no commitment exchange for HR10-250 owners, dont you? Free replacement and no commitment.


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## mczolton (Aug 6, 2003)

JohnACV said:


> Whether you believe it or not, we as customers DO HAVE POWER, we've never lost it, we just haven't exercised it in force. When we do that, we will see changes.


I've exercised my power by voting with my wallet. I am canceling DirecTV for an honest to god TivoHD and cable service. Tivo means more to me than 100 HD channels.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

eric_n_dfw said:


> ...The Dish picture quality was pretty darn good but we still had a few dropouts with very mild weather; my standard def' DTV setup took all-out hail storms to have those problems. (I assume the reason is that it's harder to keep signal lock from multiple satellites for HD content than it was for the single on on DTV.)...


I would not assume that. A higher bit rate can cause lower rain fade margins, but the aggregate bit rate (all HD and SD combined) is about the same. Also, multisat dishes are engineered to have about the same rain fade margin as the single parabolic dishes, so neither would likely be a factor.

That said, when I moved in 2004 I had DISH, but installed DTV in the new condo and kept DISH for a short while. I have a balcony install, so it was easy to have both systems up for the overlap period. Both were multisat dishes, a Phase III (3 DTV sats) vs. a DISH500 (2 DISH sats). The DTV antenna greatly outperformed the DISH antenna during rainouts. Complete loss of picture for 10 minutes or more on DISH vs. no pixellation whatsoever on DTV. This is with both systems precisely aligned.

So possibly DTV uses more FEC or guard band or other technique, or maybe they just have a hotter antenna, although I picked up 20-odd points on all sats when replacing the Phase III with a Slimline.

My reason for leaving DISH was twofold, DTV had the DTivo, and DISH had the worst excuses for PVRs I've ever seen. They would wipe the HDD regularly. For the last 8 months I was there they could not even get the clock to work properly on my 721, which was an hour off. But I hear that the newer 622/722 HD PVRs are pretty good.


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## eric_n_dfw (Jul 15, 2003)

jimb726 said:


> You do realize that DirecTv was offering a no commitment exchange for HR10-250 owners, dont you? Free replacement and no commitment.


That's nice to know. It didn't apply to my circumstance as I was coming from a HDVR2 box, but good to know that they weren't/aren't completely screwing over customers that probably dropped a lot of money on HR10-250's.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

jimb726 said:


> You do realize that DirecTv was offering a no commitment exchange for HR10-250 owners, dont you? Free replacement and no commitment.


A little too late for me. I called a few weeks ago and could not get them to budge on the 2-year commit. So I left. Now have a TiVo HD and Comcast and am quite happy with it. If I had the option of getting a new DVR for free with no commit I absolutely would have tried it. But they drove me away by insisting on a 2-year commitment. It's too bad they didn't change the policy sooner. I was a DirecTV customer for 11 years.


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