# pay tivo or get media center for free?



## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

I just set up media center, and started recording, because my tivo is full, and I wanted to get the whole 8hr Outer Limits marathon today.

Shows are also viewable in Windows Media Player, I was surprised. No DRM.

An hour show uses a gig of HD.

Anyone know, are there hidden disadvantages? My series 2 is about to die I fear.. I might need the replacement kit soon. I assume I'll need to buy it before my tivo HD burns up --to save my lifetime purchase?


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

You don't get to pay $13 per month for guide data with Windows Media Center. Also, you don't get to see ads plastered on your menus.
If you can live without these awesome features, I think you'll be fine with Media Center.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

Well, I don't pay per month. But the ads are annoying and I'll never buy from any vendor that annoys me.

But Media Center stopped recording, with no warning, at 41 and 46 minutes respectively. I wonder if it's the tivo channel changing?

But I'm glad I posted this new thread because I saw in this forum an app that strips the DRM and edits tivotogo files. It shrinks a half hr show from 300megs down to 180megs in the same process (takes 3 mins) and now the file will run on my Mac (Leopard) with VLC 0.8.5!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I see this thread going nowhere fast


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Go with the media center. We'll miss you, but we'll survive.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

scandia101 said:


> Go with the media center. We'll miss you, but we'll survive.


I think you're 'missing' my point(s).

Anyone with a newer PC can run schedule Media Player with their Tivo and this avoids the need for slow wireless transfers AND your shows are playable anywhere!

Isn't this what we all want? Inexpensive storage upgrading, no DRM, and yet retain Tivo's ease of use and scheduling capabilities?


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## Devx (Jun 1, 2006)

jojodoesit said:


> I think you're 'missing' my point(s).
> 
> Anyone with a newer PC can run schedule Media Player with their Tivo and this avoids the need for slow wireless transfers AND your shows are playable anywhere!
> 
> Isn't this what we all want? Inexpensive storage upgrading, no DRM, and yet retain Tivo's ease of use and scheduling capabilities?


I think you might need to elaborate a bit. At first glance it seems like you're trying to replace TiVo with Windows Media Center which of course on a mostly pro-TiVo forum is probably going to be met with a bit of hostility. Reading through the thread though, it sounds almost like you're talking about using TiVo in conjunction with Media Center for a "best of both worlds" type deal.

The question is, when you say pay what do you mean exactly? Service fees? upgrade fees? repair fees? drive space expanding costs?


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

jojodoesit said:


> My series 2 is about to die I fear.. I might need the replacement kit soon. I assume I'll need to buy it before my tivo HD burns up --to save my lifetime purchase?


Why do you think it's about to die? My stock Quantum drives on my Series 1 Tivos from 2001 and 2002 are still running fine.

I don't understand your question... the subscription is tied to the box and the serial number (TSN) is stored on a crypto chip on the motherboard. Assuming your box has lifetime and isn't a MSD unit, you could have the drive totally fail and you could just leave it unplugged for a year if you wanted.

You can replace the drive at your convenience. There's nothing that says you have to replace the drive before it dies in order to preserve lifetime.

Like Devx, I also don't really understand the OP's questions/points either. One of the hallmarks of TiVo is its reliability and lack of required maintenance (mucking w/drivers, updates, security patches, rebooting if it gets into a bad state, etc.). If the OP wants to replace their TiVo w/a PC running Media Center... good luck. He's already got 2 truncated recordings.


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## chip_r (Apr 27, 2006)

I believe the OP is considering moving to a Media Center PC as a DVR versus paying for a hard drive upgrade to his Tivo (w/lifetime).

Media Center PCs aren't for "free". Assuming that you just let your Series 2 die (with it's lifetime sub) and move over to your media center PC you will still pay. It's called electricity.

Assuming that your Tivo is 40W and your PC is 240W, and electricity is $0.10/KWh, that's $175.20/year or $14.60/month just in electricity. Annoying ads aside, you could get a decent hard drive for your Tivo for 6 months worth of electricity for your PC. 

Those numbers are average, for my PC and my area it's 350W-40W * $0.15/KWh = $407.34/year for a "free" media center PC. No way my PC is staying on 24/7.

Assuming you just pick up a decent drive and can do the InstantCake upgrade, the cost of a drive upgrade isn't too bad compared to other routes.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

chip_r: Fascinating way to consider it--thanks. And so TIVO monthly actually saves money!


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

If you want digital cable channels in HD on your media center PC, you've got to cough up $1250-$1500 for a Dell Vista PC with CableCards. You can't add CableCard tuners to an existing computer.

That's a 5-6x the cost of a $249 TivoHD, and twice the cost of a TivoHD with a wireless adapter and lifetime subscription (no monthly fees). The TiVo is also $5-10/mo less on your electric bill, even after accounting for various PC power saving modes.

Once nice aspect of the Media Center is that you can add multi-room viewing to any room with a $300 Xbox360 (which will double as a Media Center extender), although that doesn't increase your available tuners.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

chip_r said:


> I believe the OP is considering moving to a Media Center PC as a DVR versus paying for a hard drive upgrade to his Tivo (w/lifetime).
> 
> Media Center PCs aren't for "free". Assuming that you just let your Series 2 die (with it's lifetime sub) and move over to your media center PC you will still pay. It's called electricity.
> 
> ...


Interesting attempt, but I think you're off by a factor of 100, since you mixed your dollars and cents. I got $2.61 per yr at 15c a KWH.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

jojodoesit said:


> I think you're 'missing' my point(s).


I know you missed my point.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

Devx said:


> I think you might need to elaborate a bit. At first glance it seems like you're trying to replace TiVo with Windows Media Center which of course on a mostly pro-TiVo forum is probably going to be met with a bit of hostility. Reading through the thread though, it sounds almost like you're talking about using TiVo in conjunction with Media Center for a "best of both worlds" type deal.
> 
> The question is, when you say pay what do you mean exactly? Service fees? upgrade fees? repair fees? drive space expanding costs?


Yes, upgrading my Tivo model and/or expanding storage. If Tivo would offer HDs for Series 2 at BestBuy I would pay their premium price(s).

Yes, best of both worlds, but Media Center seems to stop recording when Tivo changes channels. I haven't had time to confirm this yet, but it's happened 3 times. This can be avoided by doing a 'buffer catchup' before recording, or watching for the warning and using the Tivo buffer to reset the recording. Media Center doesn't show a 'recording in progress light' that I see, very lame!

Yes, prideful owners, but why the hostility? Tivo will be gone in 10 yrs (probably less) so the time spent studying Tivo would be better invested in topics of enduring value like science, and especially the arts. Will you be able to build upon the knowledge of specific Tivo quirks?, I don't see how.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

cwerdna said:


> Why do you think it's about to die? My stock Quantum drives on my Series 1 Tivos from 2001 and 2002 are still running fine.
> 
> I don't understand your question... the subscription is tied to the box and the serial number (TSN) is stored on a crypto chip on the motherboard. Assuming your box has lifetime and isn't a MSD unit, you could have the drive totally fail and you could just leave it unplugged for a year if you wanted.
> 
> You can replace the drive at your convenience. There's nothing that says you have to replace the drive before it dies in order to preserve lifetime.


Thanks for the info. That's good news with the price/gigabyte going down down down. I bought my first HD on sale for $849, 20 MEGABYTES! It was a great deal for the time. My next drive was about $600, 40 MEGABYTES!


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

scandia101 said:


> I know you missed my point.


What are you, eleven?


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## chip_r (Apr 27, 2006)

jojodoesit said:


> Interesting attempt, but I think you're off by a factor of 100, since you mixed your dollars and cents. I got $2.61 per yr at 15c a KWH.


240W - 40W = 200W difference between a Media Center PC and a Tivo
200W = 0.2KW
0.2KW * 24Hours * 365days/year = 1752KWhr for 365 days
1752KWhr * $0.10/KWHr = $175.20

Repeat the same steps for my 350W PC - 40W Tivo (310W) and my $0.15 rate and it's $407.34


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## mohanman (Dec 18, 2007)

Trust me, as a home theater pc enthusiast, I found that the whole thing of having tv and pc in one place just didn't work 100%. I just recently switched over to TIVO, and I am glad I did. With series 4, or future Tivos, I am hoping that MRV and TTG are updated in terms of speed and quality, maybe even streaming. As I posted elsewhere, if TIVO incorporated NAS video (with divx/xvid/vob playback), a nice menu system with thumbnails, and improvement of the TTG and MRV, it could easily take over the living room environment and whole home multimedia.

I am willing to pay for that.

Mo


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Before anyone else responds to the OP, I suggest that they look at the last two threads he started:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370680
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=318445


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

chip_r said:


> 240W - 40W = 200W difference between a Media Center PC and a Tivo
> 200W = 0.2KW
> 0.2KW * 24Hours * 365days/year = 1752KWhr for 365 days
> 1752KWhr * $0.10/KWHr = $175.20
> ...


You're right, I mixed my dollars and cents.

This is a revelation, that's why I tried to calculate it myself, it means that over 30 percent of our electric bill is for running our computers. I hope my wife doesn't read this..


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

JYoung said:


> Before anyone else responds to the OP, I suggest that they look at the last two threads he started:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370680
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=318445


Now JYoung, with the perspective of time, tell me they weren't informative threads.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

mohanman said:


> Trust me, as a home theater pc enthusiast, I found that the whole thing of having tv and pc in one place just didn't work 100%.
> Mo


You didn't say why, exactly..

I think I'll get one of these small footprint LCD touchscreen PCs for monitoring what Media Player is or isn't recording. Their prices have dropped 'way down.

http://www.directron.com/m661st.html


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

chip_r said:


> Media Center PCs aren't for "free". Assuming that you just let your Series 2 die (with it's lifetime sub) and move over to your media center PC you will still pay. It's called electricity.
> 
> Assuming that your Tivo is 40W and your PC is 240W, a


Why would you assume the OP's PC is 240 watts? That's a pretty darned high. I measured the consumption of my Ahtlon 64 3200+ single core system w/2 hard drives and 2 video cards and draws 101 W at idle and ~130 W when the CPU is maxed out at 100% by distributed.net RC-5 client. The PSU is a 450 W Antec SmartPower.

You're also assuming the PC never goes into standby.

See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4004222&highlight=athlon#post4004222 for some of my other measurements.


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## chip_r (Apr 27, 2006)

cwerdna said:


> Why would you assume the OP's PC is 240 watts? That's a pretty darned high. I measured the consumption of my Ahtlon 64 3200+ single core system w/2 hard drives and 2 video cards and draws 101 W at idle and ~130 W when the CPU is maxed out at 100% by distributed.net RC-5 client. The PSU is a 450 W Antec SmartPower.
> 
> You're also assuming the PC never goes into standby.
> 
> See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4004222&highlight=athlon#post4004222 for some of my other measurements.


Well, if the computer is in standby, you can't record. Going with your 100W idle 100% of the time versus 40W for the Series 2 (from manual, but I'm sure that's a high number), that a 60W increase over a Tivo. That's $52.56 in electricity/year at $0.10/KWhr or $78.84/year at $0.15/KWHr (in my neck of the woods). Play all of the power management games you want but in the end, Tivos have hard drives and a wimpy (low power) CPU. Modern PCs have hard drives with a much more power hungry CPU. Both CPUs needs to run to record. Current PCs will always consume more power than a Tivo.

I measured my dual-core P4 3GHz machine and it consumes 350W. It's a room heater, possibly out of the ordinary, but a measured number. I also pay my electric bills.

I'd rather pay a subscription than pay the electric company.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jojodoesit said:


> Now JYoung, with the perspective of time, tell me they weren't informative threads.


you are full of yourself and your posts go in all kinds of fanciful directions. Glad you have some time this holiday season to amuse yourself. I may read the thread and yes others are posting informative things but really we all know you are just making this cr_P up as you go along


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jojodoesit said:


> Now JYoung, with the perspective of time, tell me they weren't informative threads.


I believe they were VERY informative (thanks guys!), and showed exactly what type of behavior to expect in this tread since there's a clear track record.

In the immortal words of Cosmo Kramer "i'm out"


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you are full of yourself and your posts go in all kinds of fanciful directions. Glad you have some time this holiday season to amuse yourself. I may read the thread and yes others are posting informative things but really we all know you are just making this cr_P up as you go along


Each post stands on its own, can you be specific?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jojodoesit said:


> Each post stands on its own, can you be specific?


 nah, do not feel like playing your game at the moment


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> nah, do not feel like playing your game at the moment


Then, can I call you a troll from now on?


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## renkablue (Sep 16, 2007)

Will "Media Center" program work like TIVO Desktop - or is "Media Center" suppose to take the place of TIVO Desktop - or is "Media Center" suppose to take the place of TIVO?
Guess I need some clarification?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

renkablue said:


> Will "Media Center" program work like TIVO Desktop - or is "Media Center" suppose to take the place of TIVO Desktop - or is "Media Center" suppose to take the place of TIVO?
> Guess I need some clarification?


If you have an XP Media Center or Vista PC with the Media Center features and a TV Tuner card, it can work as a DVR. The OP is trying to say that they believe it might be a better DVR then Tivo.

(deftly stepping out of the flame wars in the thread)


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*We have replaced*
five TiVos with Vista Media Centers. A single MCE2005 remains because an early FusionII card is not Vista compatible. This change started while Series3 units were $800+ and TiVoHD was not yet announced. Had TiVo,Inc been a leader and not a follower they could have had our business. $800 plus monthly fees versus $850 and no fees seemed a reasonable choice with the options available at the time. The investment in software/hardware since initial builds has kept pace with what monthly fees (even with MSD) would have been. All in all when I consider my results it is mostly a wash. Since I'm not paying huge labor rates for PC work and I like the thrill of the driver hunt (within reason) that would deter others.

Functionally the boxes are similar with TiVo having 'suggestions'. While a wonderful feature we found it somewhat annoying with DirecTiVos and had to turn it off when watching a single John Wayne movie would result in an avalanche of westerns from 'The Good, Bad and the Ugly' to 'Gene Autry: King of the Singing Cowboys'.

Suggestions are off on the remaining Series1 TiVo even though it never did do anything wrong. While that grandfathered unit waits for a SDV solution to emerge from the vapor before morphing to a TiVoHD. TiVo has not left our lives, but has a signifigantly reduced role...


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## GoHalos (Aug 30, 2006)

I used 2005 Media Center as a backup for my main TiVo for a while, and let's just say that I now have two TiVos and the computer has been relegated back to just being a computer. 

The reliability of recording all the shows that you told it to was good, but not as good as TiVo. It *occasionally* wouldn't record shows that it should have.

Often, like once or twice a month or so, the Media Center (TV card?) would drop the sound, and I would have recordings with no sound. If I didn't watch anything new on the Media Center for a while (which was often, since it was my backup DVR machine) I would have several shows without sound, which was quite frustrating.

With the multi-service discount, it was more than worth it for me to add another TiVo and have peace of mind.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

Devx said:


> ...At first glance it seems like you're trying to replace TiVo with Windows Media Center which of course *on a mostly pro-TiVo forum is probably going to be met with a bit of hostility*....


BINGO!! Pay the man! 

___


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> If you have an XP Media Center or Vista PC with the Media Center features and a TV Tuner card, it can work as a DVR. The OP is trying to say that they believe it might be a better DVR then Tivo.
> 
> (deftly stepping out of the flame wars in the thread)


Nope. Where did that assumption come from?

If a Tivo owner already has a PC with Media Player, why not use both for the easy scheduling using Tivo AND no DRM and easy, inexpensive HD storage expansion using your PC?

Your shows will be instantly playable everywhere, even on a Mac. Also, your buffer will only be limited by space available on your HD.

I'm asking what the drawbacks might be.. One is the added power consumption if you dedicate a PC solely to TV and another might be the unreliability of Media Center. Tivo sometimes fails to change a channel for a show, maybe once every 6months.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jojodoesit said:


> Then, can I call you a troll from now on?


 umm - I am not the one starting flamatory threads that then seem to wander all over the place. Go back through my posts, they stand up on their own. the only reason I did not throw the troll label at you is because you are nice enough about the whole thing. Have fun with it.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

Fixer said:


> BINGO!! Pay the man!
> 
> TiVo should sell it's boxes and service on it's own merits, and not rely on "advertiser support". TiVo, "TV THEIR way".
> 
> ___


But don't pay this Texan's grammar teachers, it's is never possessive!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Buy your Media Center PC and that monitor thing and go away. Everyone wins.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> umm


You've posted an average of over 9 posts a day, 365 days a year, since 2004 and MickeS has

posted over 4 posts a day since 2002. It's not my place to tell you guys to quit wasting your

lives here and "go away".

But I hope the posts/attacks of both of you haven't all been as baseless and as empty of

content as yours in this thread. Maybe you could point me to some of your more informative

posts? All these years, my my!


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## SheliaP (Jul 29, 2005)

jojodoesit said:


> You've posted an average of over 9 posts a day, 365 days a year, since 2004 and MickeS has
> 
> posted over 4 posts a day since 2002. It's not my place to tell you guys to quit wasting your lives here and "go away".
> 
> ...


I really hope you are not as much a *smurf* hole as you seem here.

I thought this might be useful thread, as I often transfer my TIVO recordings to my PC, and over to my Backup External HD. I often turn them into Media Player Files, along with retaining the ability to transfer them back to TIVO when we actually want to watch a season of something. (I still haven't watched the last season of 24 and have a couple to finish for the last Prison Break in time for the new season in January) I can also watch them on my media player and take with me on trips, etc. ALl of which I finid very usefull foro ur viewing habits.

We once had a tvtuner graphics card, but it was more trouble than it was worth at the time. I had hoped to see through this thread if things were better. So far I have not, except for one poster and that sounded interesting, but expensive.

I agree, we don't leave our PC on for many reasons, one of which is energy savings. But that wouldn't be the main reason *if* i really wanted to use it as a main DVR, or set up the older PCs as DVRs.

I truly hope the OP isn't as obtuse as he sounds, or as jejeune. Slam if you must I won't be back here.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

jojodoesit said:


> Anyone know, are there hidden disadvantages? My series 2 is about to die I fear.. I might need the replacement kit soon. I assume I'll need to buy it before my tivo HD burns up --to save my lifetime purchase?


There are pros and cons. But basically, the media center is a Windows computer, so sometimes it screws up, doesn't record things, something makes it reboot, etc. As long as you're ok without a 'canned' solution, it's not terrible.

I'd say the pros/cons come down to content. You're only going to get OTA and analog cable unless you get a VERY expensive Vista cablecard system.

HTPC-
Able to download and watch any Internet content. (Netflix I love, for exmple.)
Better ability to transfer shows.
Ability to copy things directly to DVD

TiVo-
A lot of good features
Typically WAY cheaper than a computer
Has CableCard Support
Has a lot of good multimedia/Internet options


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jojodoesit said:


> You've posted an average of over 9 posts a day, 365 days a year, since 2004 and MickeS has


wow, an attack on the post count and I must therefor have no life. Have never seen a troll use that tactic before.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SheliaP said:


> We once had a tvtuner graphics card, but it was more trouble than it was worth at the time. I had hoped to see through this thread if things were better. So far I have not, except for one poster and that sounded interesting, but expensive.


the umm, OP has never really defined what his goals are so it makes the pros and cons kind of spread out and vague.
The biggest decision points 
Do you want HD content and are you after premium channels? 
Is the content you desire found on cable or on Satellite broadcasts?

all else falls in line from there and of course A PC based DVR has significant hurdles for HD or encrypted premium content. Your method of using a dedicated DVR and getting the content off that device to share on your PC platforms is what I use as well. TiVo makes it easy to get the content and also makes it easy to move that content to my PC world and thus makes it easy to bypass the hassle of turning my PC into a DVR. To me that time savings and reliability is worth the money I pay to run my TiVo DVRs.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

SheliaP said:


> I really hope you are not as much a *smurf* hole as you seem here..


Keep in mind that pointing out obvious grammar mistakes is helpful for future prospects.

Complaining to me about this thread wandering is lame and unfair.

A guy who posted 8500 times to this forum, tells me to go buy Media Center. What a genius.



SheliaP said:


> I thought this might be useful thread, as I often transfer my TIVO
> 
> recordings to my PC, and over to my Backup External HD. I often turn them into Media Player
> 
> ...


The point is, with your Media Center shows already in a cross-platform file format you can

backup them up in 1 to 2 minutes for an hour show. You'd never need to use TivoToGo again.

And there's no media key problems.



SheliaP said:


> We once had a tvtuner graphics card, but it was more trouble than it
> 
> was worth at the time. I had hoped to see through this thread if things were better. So far I
> 
> have not, except for one poster and that sounded interesting, but expensive. .


But most middle priced PCs come with TV connections.



SheliaP said:


> I truly hope the OP isn't as obtuse as he sounds, or as jejeune. .


Me too..



SheliaP said:


> Slam if you must I won't be back here.


Well, other people might see it.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jojodoesit said:


> Nope. Where did that assumption come from?


Apparently I was wrong, thank you for correcting me.
However I have no interest in assisting you in the discussion, 
only in helping others who may stray in to gain knowledge, as opposed to picking fights and calling everyone an idiot/loser/moron.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

If you think I'm picking, you need to go back reread who posted what.

You're using worse characterizations than any of us..


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> There are pros and cons. But basically, the media center is a Windows computer, so sometimes it screws up, doesn't record things, something makes it reboot, etc. As long as you're ok without a 'canned' solution, it's not terrible.
> 
> I'd say the pros/cons come down to content. You're only going to get OTA and analog cable unless you get a VERY expensive Vista cablecard system.
> 
> ...


I'll have a temporary copy of the show on my Tivo, until it deletes it or I do.

I'll get every show that comes through my Tivo.

But the benefits of doing this, which you delineate, far outweigh any disadvantages I've heard from anyone (and the benefits are generally because of Tivo's policies).


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the umm, OP has never really defined what his goals are so it makes the pros and cons kind of spread out and vague.
> The biggest decision points
> Do you want HD content and are you after premium channels?
> Is the content you desire found on cable or on Satellite broadcasts?
> ...


*Adding HD*
to a PC is no harder than installing any other windows device. Installing a USB (or even PCI) device is probably not going to be beyond someones skill set unless the cable splitter is too much to handle. Adding some device drivers and maybe checking Windows Update is probably easy and routine for most computer users. Spending another 5-10 minutes configuring tuner(s) in Media Center takes a similar amount of time as it does to configure TiVo.

Since I have two local broadcast channels that are listed based as the RF broadcast channel numbers, the MCE2005/VMC ability to add a 'missing' channel then apply listings to it is very useful...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JJ said:


> *Adding HD*
> to a PC is no harder than installing any other windows device. Installing a USB (or even PCI) device is probably not going to be beyond someones skill set unless the cable splitter is too much to handle. Adding some device drivers and maybe checking Windows Update is probably easy and routine for most computer users. Spending another 5-10 minutes configuring tuner(s) in Media Center takes a similar amount of time as it does to configure TiVo.
> 
> Since I have two local broadcast channels that are listed based as the RF broadcast channel numbers, the MCE2005/VMC ability to add a 'missing' channel then apply listings to it is very useful...


so can you show some add on cable card hardware for cable company. My understanding is that cable card as certified by cablelabs requires buying an OEM PC that is already setup with cable card and was in full certified by cable labs.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jojodoesit said:


> If you think I'm picking, you need to go back reread who posted what.
> 
> You're using worse characterizations than any of us..


Mom said if you can't say anything nice about someone, don't say anything at all. My reply follows....


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## mohanman (Dec 18, 2007)

Media center sucks. Trust me, I have worked with MCE 2004, then 2005, then Vista. With cablecards and MCE, you cannot do anything with the recordings, cannot even put them on your stupid Zune. I have heard horror stories of getting them to work, and who wants a loud/power hungry pc in the living room anyway? I recently switched over to TIVO, and I am very, very, very happy. The time I have put into HTPC over the years I could have put into something else, like actually going on a date or working out. But no.. HTPC everyone says. With TIVO, took me less than a few hours, and things are going great. I can download recordings to the PC, burn them to DVD, hook up a sling box, have MRV, everything is working perfectly. I don't have to worry about updating the videocard, stupid drivers, viruses etc.

One thing that I will say in benefit of HTPC, is I am a huge fan of sagetv. They are by far the best HTPC software, and again trust me, I have been doing this for years. I did buy two of their new HD extenders, and I use those for streaming ripped movies, pictures, music etc. I use TIVOs to handle the tv part.

Just thought I would share my two cents. If you are on the verge of buying a htpc for tv purposes, my opinion it is highly time consuming and doesn't work 100% of the time as a TIVO does. On the otherhand if streaming videos, music, photos is what you are looking for, I highly reocmmend the new SagetV extenders.. very nice.

Thanks
Mo


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

jojodoesit said:


> Keep in mind that pointing out obvious grammar mistakes is helpful for future prospects.





jojodoesit said:


> But don't pay this Texan's grammar teachers, it's is never possessive!


Since you want us to point out grammar mistakes:

"it's is never possessive" is an independent clause and must be joined to another independent clause by a semicolon instead of a comma; you've just created a glaring run-on sentence.

Something about glass houses and stones comes to mind.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

David Platt said:


> Since you want us to point out grammar mistakes:
> 
> "it's is never possessive" is an independent clause and must be joined to another independent clause by a semicolon instead of a comma; you've just created a glaring run-on sentence.
> 
> Something about glass houses and stones comes to mind.


Run-on sentences won't hurt future prospects while that obvious contraction mistake will.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

jojodoesit said:


> Run-on sentences won't hurt future prospects while that obvious contraction mistake will.


I'd love to hear you further explain how an apostrophe will "hurt future prospects."

Actually, I'd love to hear what you even mean by "hurt future prospects."


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so can you show some add on cable card hardware for cable company. My understanding is that cable card as certified by cablelabs requires buying an OEM PC that is already setup with cable card and was in full certified by cable labs.


*Not really*
I have a very strong OTA signal and a fair amount of contempt for Comcast based on thier habit of playing hide and seek with the clear QAM channels. While I have Comcast (spit) basic bundled with my internet access and have tested my QAM options the moving target channels and reduced quality do not impress me. I had DirecTiVoHD but when it broke the inferior HR20-700 DirecTV branded replacement drove me away. We have two Dish VIP622s for premium channels and they fill all those needs and here are no complaints.

My installations appear to differ from what you really want. Our boxes are purely for OTA and you seem to want an everything from cable box. Nothing wrong with that choice, just not for us. There is a recent thread at AVS Forum regarding Media Center pre-builts with cable lab card slots that may answer your specific question.

I don't recall any of my PC card or software installations (excluding early betas) that could come close to the TiVo/cable card ordeals posted on this forum...


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

David Platt said:


> I'd love to hear you further explain how an apostrophe will "hurt future prospects."
> 
> Actually, I'd love to hear what you even mean by "hurt future prospects."


You'll get me re-accused of going "in all kinds of fanciful directions".


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Wow, I see my vacation from here wasn't long enough...  (and maybe, just maybe I wasn't the root of all evil as was suggested) 

WRT: Free Media Center or Pay Tivo? You get what you pay for. If you're satisfied with what your media center box can give you, then have at it.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

BTW, media center isn't free.

Windows Vista Ultimate costs $319. Maybe cheaper if you buy it with a computer...

A TiVo HD is only $349 with a year of service...


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Then again*
I'm getting my Media Center fix with Vista Home Premium 32bit OEM purchased at Micro Center for $80US...

For our environment the Vista Ultimate features would not add enjoyment or value...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JJ said:


> *Not really*
> I have a very strong OTA signal and a fair amount of contempt for Comcast based on thier habit of playing hide and seek with the clear QAM channels. While I have Comcast (spit) basic bundled with my internet access and have tested my QAM options the moving target channels and reduced quality do not impress me.
> 
> My installations appear to differ from what you really want. Our boxes are purely for OTA and you seem to want an everything from cable box. Nothing wrong with that choice, just not for us.


 ok, I have a TiVo HD and can hook up an OTA by just hooking up the coax wire. I agree that most OTA cards for PCs are an easy install as well. From what I read it is the video card and interaction with some other hardware that provides the devil in the details.
anyway - My TiVo HD without cable cards can most likely get the same channels and see the QAM as well. If only the cable companies would keep QAM in one placethen TiVo might even provide guide data for them. Would be nice to at least have the feature of manually mapping those channels to guide data on the TiVo like most HTPC can do.



> There is a recent thread at AVS Forum regarding Media Center pre-builts with cable lab card slots that may answer your specific question.
> 
> I don't recall any of my PC card or software installations (excluding early betas) that could come close to the TiVo/cable card ordeals posted on this forum...


After the holidays I am getting TWC to come and put in cable cards, the pain of cable cards stems not from the TiVo or an HTPC but from getting a cable tech that knows how to do it nd a billing person who can pair the cards to the account correctly. If we could install them and hit a website to provide the detail for the head end then it would be like installing an OTA card.

so my point on HD for cable stands - it is a big wrinkle in the HTPC world.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> BTW, media center isn't free.
> 
> Windows Vista Ultimate costs $319. Maybe cheaper if you buy it with a computer...
> 
> A TiVo HD is only $349 with a year of service...


You get Media Center with this fast HP Pavilion M7657C-B(RC641AA) 22" LCD wide-screen for 800 dollars. You can record 200 to 300 shows. Your buffer is limited only by your available HD space. Play your shows anywhere and just use your Tivo for scheduling and temporary backups. Send all your Tivo shows to it and avoid the media key DRM, and after that backup or replace any hour show within 2 minutes.

For another $120 your potential capacity increases by another 500 shows. Why delete anything?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

jojodoesit said:


> You get Media Center with this fast HP Pavilion M7657C-B(RC641AA) 22" LCD wide-screen for 800 dollars. You can record 200 to 300 shows. Your buffer is limited only by your available HD space. Play your shows anywhere and just use your Tivo for scheduling and temporary backups. Send all your Tivo shows to it and avoid the media key DRM, and after that backup or replace any hour show within 2 minutes.
> 
> For another $120 your potential capacity increases by another 500 shows. Why delete anything?


Another $150

TiVo HD- $249
Lifetime service- $399

No service fees.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> Another $150
> 
> TiVo HD- $249
> Lifetime service- $399
> ...


$99 for 500 gig externals by La Cie and Seagate here at BestBuy, probably cheaper online.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I looked at the last thread.



> No slow motion, and the weirdest responding remote I've ever used. (weird not in a good way..)


WRONG!



> 18 minutes of static screen after you've watched a show, before finally returning to live TV? Totally nonsensical.


 WTF? WRONG



> My series 2 actually switches channels at night to some inane 30 minute Tivo Ad. I've missed the middle of many good shows and I've promised myself I'd never buy another Tivo offering. This is an outrageous policy! Have they stopped it yet??


 WRONG!

Why are you spreading FUD?

-smak-


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

jojodoesit said:


> You get Media Center with this fast HP Pavilion M7657C-B(RC641AA) 22" LCD wide-screen for 800 dollars. You can record 200 to 300 shows. Your buffer is limited only by your available HD space. Play your shows anywhere and just use your Tivo for scheduling and temporary backups. Send all your Tivo shows to it and avoid the media key DRM, and after that backup or replace any hour show within 2 minutes.
> 
> For another $120 your potential capacity increases by another 500 shows. Why delete anything?


On Newegg is $889, not $800.

Second, THIS:








is NOT going in my living room.

Third, it's XP MEDIA CENTER. not Vista.

Fourth, it has a SINGLE ANALOG TUNER, no HD??? (OTA, let alone cablecards...)

That's what your pitting against the TiVoHD?


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

smak said:


> I looked at the last thread.
> 
> WRONG!
> 
> ...


My forum quote capability hasn't worked for 2 days now, but i wish i could reply effectively to your post.. It might come back soon?..

Re-read my posts, maybe you can figure them out without me repeating myself in this thread.. I know I've clarified all of those assertions months ago. Please re-read them.

And if I was wrong about anything I would have corrected myself, since this is not an ego game with me.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> On Newegg is $889, not $800.
> 
> Second, THIS:
> 
> ...


My forum quote capability hasn't worked for 2 days now.

It's $789 here in our university book store, sorry.

My XP machines are much more reliable than my Vista machines. Many buyers still prefer XP.

I never mentioned HD, it requires far more storage capacity than I think it's worth.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

I would love to build a quiet, energy efficient, htpc form factor, dual tuner OTA media center. However, doing all of this is way more expensive then the cost of a TiVo HD plus 3 years of service (which is about the limits of any PC I would build). I build all of my PCs at home and would have no trouble doing this. However, if I did it, it is doubtful I would fork over the money to by Vista for it but would use myth tv instead. 

You can certainly buy Vista Media Center machines. But none of them that are inexpensive are made for actually putting in your media center. There are very expensive boxes you can buy however that would certainly work quite well but I would build my own htpc box before I spent that much money.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

rainwater said:


> I would love to build a quiet, energy efficient, htpc form factor, dual tuner OTA media center. However, doing all of this is way more expensive then the cost of a TiVo HD plus 3 years of service (which is about the limits of any PC I would build). I build all of my PCs at home and would have no trouble doing this. However, if I did it, it is doubtful I would fork over the money to by Vista for it but would use myth tv instead.
> 
> You can certainly buy Vista Media Center machines. But none of them that are inexpensive are made for actually putting in your media center. There are very expensive boxes you can buy however that would certainly work quite well but I would build my own htpc box before I spent that much money.


Keep in mind that a PC does far more than any Tivo can.

For the home builder, a motherboard, cpu, power supply, case, HD, mouse, keyboard, speakers and a tv tuner card, and the way I see it, the last 5 can be used elsewhere. While no Tivo parts can be readily used elsewhere.

Tivo is a good scheduler, but Tivo policies make it exasperating for use as your only DVR.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

jojodoesit said:


> My forum quote capability hasn't worked for 2 days now.
> 
> It's $789 here in our university book store, sorry.
> 
> ...


Ok, to fix your comparison, we need to compare a $789 HMC to a Free single tuner TiVo. $299 for 3 years of service.

So yea, for $500 more you can do more stuff and have a big ugly PC in your living room.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> Ok, to fix your comparison, we need to compare a $789 HMC to a Free single tuner TiVo. $299 for 3 years of service.
> 
> So yea, for $500 more you can do more stuff and have a big ugly PC in your living room.


How much capacity are you giving me?

..Not to mention the DRM and media key problems..

BTW, I never said I'd give up my Tivo lifetime completely, I'll probably just relegate it to a temporary backup device, if Media Center continues to be adequate for my needs. Everything goes through Tivo anyway.

But why upgrade the capacity of my Tivo when Media Center offers all the often-requested policy changes I've seen in this forum?

When my old Tivo dies I'll get a replacement kit with oodles of storage, no doubt.

Money's not the issue, I would have purchased 5 Tivos by now, instead of the 7 assorted DVRs I bought, IF IT MADE SENSE to do so, but I hate DRM limitations, I hate the lifetime restrictions and I hate their Linux/blessed HD expansion nonsense.


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## Devx (Jun 1, 2006)

So jojo, it seems like your priorities are easy expansion, backup, and a more open file format. In that case, what you're proposing should work. You won't even need to put the Media center PC in your home theater/living room if you're willing to get a media center extender in there. In addition to the additional cost/maintenance (initial startup cost/software patching) of the PC vs the Tivo you have to monitor an extra device as well since you just created a chain. If the Tivo's hard drive starts having trouble, your XPMC PC will be left without a recording source unless you plan to go manual until you get it fixed. Likewise, but less so, for your XPMC PC, if one of the drives starts having issues then you have to get it replaced fairly quick or your shows are still only present on the Tivo. 

It could work, just a bit concerning that you're adding an additional point of failure and if any device in the chain goes out the solution breaks.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

jojodoesit said:


> How much capacity are you giving me?


Ok, a single tuner tivo with 500 gigs, $100. 



jojodoesit said:


> ..Not to mention the DRM and media key problems..


Uhm, what DRM problems? Both TiVo and Windows Media Center have DRM. Both are analog, so you should have no problems.



jojodoesit said:


> But why upgrade the capacity of my Tivo when Media Center offers all the often-requested policy changes I've seen in this forum?


Media centers a great, I have one. But that can't do everything a TiVo can unless you spend BIG BUCKS. (Cable HD, being the biggest one.)



> Money's not the issue, I would have purchased 5 Tivos by now, instead of the 7 assorted DVRs I bought, IF IT MADE SENSE to do so, but I hate DRM limitations, I hate the lifetime restrictions and I hate their Linux/blessed HD expansion nonsense.


There is no guarantee media center will be free and/or be supported forever. Media center has drm. I'm not sure I understand your point.

You can buy a tivo pre-upgraded, still cheaper than a media center.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> Ok, a single tuner tivo with 500 gigs, $100.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, holidays and all that stuff here..

My Media Center tv files play fine on an old XP laptop so I thought they

were playable anywhere like my DRM stripped Tivo files, but because of

your query I find that they won't play on my Macs. I'm looking into

Windows Media Player for the Mac and VLC but the files will probably

also have to be stripped (like Tivo). Damn it. It makes you want to

sell pirated content out of your home!

I might have to find a freeware tv recorder which generates DRM-free

files. Snarb is available for Leopard finally, it's 25 bucks I was

told.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jojodoesit said:


> Sorry, holidays and all that stuff here..
> 
> My Media Center tv files play fine on an old XP laptop so I thought they
> 
> ...


so you get the TiVo files onto the PC. do a 10 minute operation (that can be batched) and you have MPG files that can be played anywhere, or you can get the 25$ TiVo desktop upgrade and let it get the files off the TiVop and automatiically convert them to 4 different formats one of which is completely iPod and Mac compatible.

You can buy a TiVo HD and an DVR expander and just wire them together and get plenty of recording space. I am just not seeing what problems TiVo DVR is really, truly giving you.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so you get the TiVo files onto the PC. do a 10 minute operation (that can be batched) and you have MPG files that can be played anywhere, or you can get the 25$ TiVo desktop upgrade and let it get the files off the TiVop and automatiically convert them to 4 different formats one of which is completely iPod and Mac compatible.
> 
> You can buy a TiVo HD and an DVR expander and just wire them together and get plenty of recording space. I am just not seeing what problems TiVo DVR is really, truly giving you.


Thanks, I'll try the upgrade.

And I'll need a faster N gigabit router. With this LAN it takes 20 minutes to transfer an hour show.

I'm on DirectTv and the Expanders don't connect to a Series 2.

But I'll still use the Media Center for many shows I want to keep and especially the ones I want to record only clips of anyway.

I found the red recording light of Media Center!

I can always run XP or Vista on my Macs if this procedure for stripping DRM from Media Center video below is too cumbersome..

http://www.deskshare.com/Resources/articles/dmc_DVRMS.aspx


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## Devx (Jun 1, 2006)

jojodoesit said:


> Thanks, I'll try the upgrade.
> 
> And I'll need a faster N gigabit router. With this LAN it takes 20 minutes to transfer an hour show.
> 
> ...


Whoa, wait. I think the 20 minutes might be about right for an hour show recorded at best quality. From the speed measurements I took, (which I admit weren't very scientific and I was being generous), Tivo, at best uses about 3.5 Mbps. So fast ethernet at 100Mbps is overkill, never mind a gigabit network. An 802.11 wireless N network would be faster than Tivo could output too, without additional accessories at least...

I still think you're making your viewing experience harder than it needs to be.


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## jojodoesit (Sep 23, 2006)

Devx said:


> Whoa, wait. I think the 20 minutes might be about right for an hour show recorded at best quality. From the speed measurements I took, (which I admit weren't very scientific and I was being generous), Tivo, at best uses about 3.5 Mbps. So fast ethernet at 100Mbps is overkill, never mind a gigabit network. An 802.11 wireless N network would be faster than Tivo could output too, without additional accessories at least...
> 
> I still think you're making your viewing experience harder than it needs to be.


Interesting that you say I'm making this harder.. If Tivo would let me off dub 4 or 6 shows overnight to another recorder, like every other DVR I own, I wouldn't need Media Center or TivoToGo or DRM stripping apps. Over a few nights I would have plenty of free space on my Tivo and I would have all my programs in a transportable, cross-platform format.

Tivo has its reasons. They can say they're discouraging piracy?

I hooked up a USB wired ethernet adapter and transferred a show through the wired connection. There was no speed increase. 747 megabytes takes about 25 minutes.


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## Devx (Jun 1, 2006)

jojodoesit said:


> Interesting that you say I'm making this harder.. If Tivo would let me off dub 4 or 6 shows overnight to another recorder, like every other DVR I own, I wouldn't need Media Center or TivoToGo or DRM stripping apps. Over a few nights I would have plenty of free space on my Tivo and I would have all my programs in a transportable, cross-platform format.
> 
> Tivo has its reasons. They can say they're discouraging piracy?
> 
> I hooked up a USB wired ethernet adapter and transferred a show through the wired connection. There was no speed increase. 747 megabytes takes about 25 minutes.


I thought it was possible to automate pulling shows off of Tivo at a certain interval. If not then I know you can queue them up manually. It's not fast but it'll work.

Faster network speeds don't benefit Tivo. Unfortunately, TTG transfers are CPU-bound because of DRM.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Devx said:


> I thought it was possible to automate pulling shows off of Tivo at a certain interval. If not then I know you can queue them up manually. It's not fast but it'll work.
> 
> Faster network speeds don't benefit Tivo. Unfortunately, TTG transfers are CPU-bound because of DRM.


you can point to shows in TiVo desktop and ask that any shows in that series be autodownloaded by TiVo desktop after a show is recorded by the DVR. With the desktop upgrade you can have it convert to one of 4 different portable formats. from there easy to autosync to many different portable players or burn to DVD. For the least amount of loss in conversion you would instead use a couple different freeware apps to turn .tivo files into mpeg2 files in batch at about 5 minutes a show tops. Then move the resulting .MPG file around as desired.

I think it would be a bug leap backwards to go to offloading to a DVD recorder and I completely agree that the OP is making it all sound way harder than it actually is.


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## buellwinkle (Sep 27, 2005)

I hear talk about a media center PC uses a lot of electricity, and I agree, my desktop consumes 130W while in use. On the other hand, if you wanted lower power consumption, battery backup, quiet operation, use a laptop. My lenovo laptop uses about 35W while in use, certainly in the ballpark of a Tivo. Don't get me wrong, I still like my Tivo and DirecTivo's for ease of use and realiability, but the electricity cost issue can be mitigated.


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