# Beta team looking for customers with Series3



## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

Hi,

If you regularly use a TiVo Series2 or Series3 and are willing to help the Beta team with a project please email [email protected] for details.

Thanks,
-- Margret


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

ok, I'll inquire.....


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

I'm in, I just shot them an email, I have an OLED S3 in the rack that's still running.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

What's the project?


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## Tobashadow (Nov 11, 2006)

I have a TiVo HD in daily use if that's any of what you need.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

Does this get me an OS version that's compatible with H.264?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

I sent an e-mail as well since we have 2 S3 OLEDs. I wonder if this is possibly for the guide change to Rovi?

Scott


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Intriguingly, they include Series 2 as well... so if i had to guess, it would be more like Rovi guide data than h.264 support...


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## nyjklein (Aug 8, 2002)

I have 2 S3 OLED devices also. Sent an e-mail. I'm also guessing this to do with the guide changeover since they're have been no other S3 software updates in forever.

Jeff


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

I use my Lifetimed OLED S3 daily.
(well, not lately since there is nothing to record, but once the new season starts, I'll be back using it daily)

Email sent.


phox


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Hopefully TiVo can fix numerous issues in the Rovi guide... like way too many "To be determined" blocks that span entire prime time segments (I have seen "To be determined" from 5pm through 11pm), days (3am-3am!), etc. Nothing's worse than "12 days of guide data" only to find the last 5 are "To be determined" day spans that don't get updated until the night before.

Email sent.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

And the 648 S3 is still the best made DVR ever and with the beautiful and very functional OLED that every DVR should have. Such a well-designed box. Nobody makes a DVR like that anymore. Too expensive , I suppose.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Does the S3 qualify if the harddrive has been replaced/upgraded? Betas usually exclude non-stock HDDs.

I wonder how many stock S3's are out there?


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

CoxInPHX said:


> Does the S3 qualify if the harddrive has been replaced/upgraded? Betas usually exclude non-stock HDDs.
> 
> I wonder how many stock S3's are out there?


Don't ask; don't tell?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

TiVoMargret said:


> Hi,
> 
> If you regularly use a TiVo Series2 or Series3 and are willing to help the Beta team with a project please email [email protected] for details.
> 
> ...


It seems like it would be more efficient to provide the details upfront in this thread, then you're not sending emails to people who ultimately won't participate upon learning the details.

I'm leery of offers with additional unnecessary steps.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

CoxInPHX said:


> Does the S3 qualify if the harddrive has been replaced/upgraded? Betas usually exclude non-stock HDDs.
> 
> I wonder how many stock S3's are out there?


I threw a Weaknees 750Gig drive in there before I even powered my S3 up for the first time.
(1TB were a bit too expensive to justify at the time)

Kept the original HD around for a while just in case, then I think I stuck it in my previous computer which got recycled a couple years ago.

phox


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

shwru980r said:


> It seems like it would be more efficient to provide the details upfront in this thread, then you're not sending emails to people who ultimately won't participate upon learning the details.
> 
> I'm leery of offers with additional unnecessary steps.


Perhaps the details can't be made public at all, which is why no details were posted. After all, they can be regards to new features, or changes, and the last thing you want to do is start rumors and scare mongering by making details public, especially given that maybe the beta test proves its unworkable.

So by emailing, you get a list of interested people, and from that list, you can send an NDA to every one of them. Those that sign, get the details.

I can't see how that becomes an unnecessary step


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

They're not willing to send me the 11.N for my Tivo HD because it's too old but are doing development work on the series 2 -- really? I've got lifetime on two of them but they've been in a closet collecting dust for at least 5 years. At least the series 3 can do HD but only the 652/658 models can do H.264. What the heck are they doing on such old hardware?


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

Worf said:


> Intriguingly, they include Series 2 as well... so if i had to guess, it would be more like Rovi guide data than h.264 support...


Change in guide data would be my guess too.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

mlcarson said:


> They're not willing to send me the 11.N for my Tivo HD because it's too old but are doing development work on the series 2 -- really? I've got lifetime on two of them but they've been in a closet collecting dust for at least 5 years. At least the series 3 can do HD but only the 652/658 models can do H.264. What the heck are they doing on such old hardware?


So far the odds are on guide service changes - from Zap2It/Tribune to Rovi. In other words, the changes are to support Rovi guide data and presumably there are enough Series 3 and Series 2 units in actual subscription use to justify revisiting such old software.

Because without those changes, then all the old units would effectively be denied service even if you pay for it, and that in general is not a good thing and could cost a lot of money through the eventual lawsuits, settlements and even hardware replacements.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Surprised that I didn't hear back from them this week.

Scott


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

I got an email today telling me where to go to officially sign up.

Yes, it is regarding the switch to Rovi guide data from Gracenote/Tribune.

I guess they've already done testing on Roamios and Bolts, just need some older hardware out in the wild to do testing on.


phox


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

I hope it goes a lot better than how it went on the WMC PC's. That's what led me to switch to the Roamio when they were heavily discounted. The Rovi guide data was so bad that it made WMC unusable. There's now a way of using the Zap2it/Tribune/Gracenote guide data via EPG123 on WMC as well as using it on Windows 10. So there's a little irony in that the Tivo may now be facing the same problems with Rovi and that WMC will have the better guide data. We already know that WMC doesn't have the same H.264 issues that the Roamio currently does.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

The problems of the WMC migration was basically that it was all in - one day it suddenly switched over, and probably underwent less testing because there is no more WMC team. Most migrations worked, but even so, you still have data quality issues. 

I still have a lot of "To be determined" entries in my WMC guide because Rovi data is just terrible. (Heck, it was somewhat amusing to see my cable box have the same "To be determined" entries as well...).

About the ONLY good thing is that I routinely get 13 days of guide data - with Tribune I often ly got 9 days or less. Of course, given a lot of them are 24-hour programs called "to be determined"...

About the only saving grace is if TiVo can force Rovi to fix their guide data - I shouldn't have 5 24-hour "To be determined" blocks.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

Is the series 3 the Tivo HD?


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

SNJpage1 said:


> Is the series 3 the Tivo HD?


Good question. This is the forum for the Tivo HD and you'll notice that the forum is titled Tivo Series 3. And that's where this thread was started. And the last test thread (11.0n) for the TivoHD was started in this same forum (Series 3) in December:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=535049

but that thread clearly identified tsn's 652 & 658 which are Tivo HD's.

Details are lacking in this thread. But a TivoHD is not a Series 4, which is Premiere, that part is easy. And the TivoHD immediately preceded Series 4. But Series 3 usually refers to what is often termed the S3 OLED, or TDC648 / TSN Prefix 648 and which preceded the TivoHD. It's silver and has 2 cable card slots. But the intro post doesn't specifiy that the test does or does not include the TDC652/658 tsn prefix 652/658 which again are the TivoHD models. but it doesn't say 648 either so maybe it's 648 652 & 658. So it's a valid question that could easily be clarified by Tivo.

And it's not the first time. post #5 back on July 29 already alluded to the TivoHD


Tobashadow said:


> I have a TiVo HD in daily use if that's any of what you need.


so the question will probably continue to be asked until Tivo answers it. and maybe they won't publicly, which just gives rise to speculation that they are working on more than the guide data, since TivoHD and 11.0n has seemingly been abandoned supportwise and providing the update, even though it was just rolled out in January, but had mpeg4 issues, see:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10956919#post10956919

so maybe there is a newer version than 11.0n to be tested for 652&658 and this is another test following the last one.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

TiVoMargret said on Twitter they're including TiVoHDs.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/759093173406666752


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

SullyND said:


> TiVoMargret said on Twitter they're including TiVoHDs.


Thank you for that clarification and link :up:



> TiVo Margret Schmidt
> ‏@tivodesign
> @philwilson Yes, TiVo HD is a Series3


But why leave us guessing in the first place and fall into the confusing trap of what's a Series 3 when even Tivo isn't consistent in what they term a Series 3, since in a recent support article they treat TivoHD separately from Series 3:
https://support.tivo.com/articles/Features_Use/Comcast-Transitioning-to-MPEG4-in-Select-Markets

"TiVo Series3 HD: IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED! These DVRs will lose all HD cable channels"

and btw Tivo "all HD cable channels"? is there a comcast system that has converted or plans to convert *all* HD channels to mpeg4? No there isn't. mpeg2 will remain for many HD channels.

Can we simply get 9 digits spelled out?
648 652 658
if those are indeed the models intended for the test?

also from the article:
"TiVo is working hard to minimize the impact of this transition on our customers."
If that's the case, why is it well documented on this forum that customers are being denied the 11.0n mpeg4 update for TivoHD? Is the beta going to be readily available for public test?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

SNJpage1 said:


> Is the series 3 the Tivo HD?


Yes the HD and the original S3 OLED are both part of the Series 3 family.

Scott


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Speculation is the wind down period with Gracenote is 90 days. That suggests a migration to Rovi guide data by the middle-end of August.

We don't even know if the beta is for new software or if the changes for the new guide data supplier will all be done at tivo's end. 

In a few weeks we'll know.

AFAIK version n was released to all Comcast customers. Tivo is no longer activating series 2 and series 3 units. Sounds like tivo doesn't see the need to keep software for those units active on their servers.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

phox_mulder said:


> I got an email today telling me where to go to officially sign up.
> 
> Yes, it is regarding the switch to Rovi guide data from Gracenote/Tribune.
> 
> ...


Well I guess that answers the question if a modded tivo is eligible.

As of this morning I have not heard back from [email protected].


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

lew said:


> AFAIK version n was released to all Comcast customers. Tivo is no longer activating series 2 and series 3 units. Sounds like tivo doesn't see the need to keep software for those units active on their servers.


*was* released being the operative word. from the reports on this forum, it was available in certain comcast zip codes (mpeg4 transition markets that had migrated) beginning in January, but only for a certain window of time and apparently that window is now closed. but some markets comcast is only migrating to mpeg4 now (SF) or hasn't begun yet (Detroit). and the reports are that the update isn't being delivered even with multiple forced connections. And even in markets that had migrated by the January release, there are customers who had tivo hd lifetime that weren't using them. At least not until mpgeg4 channels started failing on roamio in June, in which case those TivoHD's came back online to try to record those channels, but again, no update available even when a case was opened with tivo support for migrated mpeg4 market - they still denied the update on the basis that the TivoHD was no longer being supported / old model. And that remains the case.

So roamio is failing on mpeg4 channels and Tivo is denying the necessary 11.0n TivoHD update to customers trying to get their channels, but striking out in the case of both Roamio and TivoHD due to failings on the part of Tivo.

and apparently a TivoHD is a Series 3 in some cases, this thread being one, but not in others, such as Tivo Support:
https://support.tivo.com/articles/Features_Use/Comcast-Transitioning-to-MPEG4-in-Select-Markets

"TiVo Series3 HD: IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED! These DVRs will lose all HD cable channels."

Again, tivo fails to mention the model number / tsn prefix in that statement, and if the above means 648 only, then say so. instead it's not spelled out as 648 specific, but left generic as "Series 3". Simply list the model numbers in support articles and in threads such as this, instead of this "is it a series3? is it not? is it a series3 family?" guessing game. Is that really too much to ask? Or is that statement a scare tactic? because if you go by "TivoHD is a Series3" as put forward, then the statement above would apply. And adding to the mess is that statement being false as to losing *all* HD channels, since not even a 648 nor a 652/658 without 11.0n would lose all HD channels. The local broadcast networks (abc, cbs, etc.) will remain mpeg2 HD and those models are mpeg2 HD compatible. Is the idea to confuse/scare the customer into upgrading? Well that's where Tivo gets on thin ice as well as far as "upgrade" models, since this statement - same article - has been proven not to be the case for Roamio:
"BOLT Series UESs, Roamio Series DVRs, Premiere Series DVRs: Compatible with MPEG4. No change is required."

Because Roamio is failing on mpeg4 channels, that's exactly the reason why a change *is* required. Customers are putting TivoHD back into use, but without 11.0n, or some new test software to replace it, customers are left without those channels. And Tivo has not come out and said the Bolt is unaffected by the Roamio issue. So a customer isn't going to run out and go "all-in" on a Bolt after getting burned on a Roamio. here's a perfect example from "The MPEG-4 letter from Comcast" thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10949774#post10949774

he can't get his TivoHD back in service to get the mpeg4 channels since he upgraded to Roamio Pro. How is he supposed to record those mpeg4 channels? Buy a Premiere, which Tivo won't offer him? Tivo is giving him nothing but dead ends after leading him down the upgrade path under this mpeg4 transition, which has a major pitfall with the mpeg4 channels failing on Roamio.

And anyone who heeds this faulty notice:
"TiVo Series3 HD: IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED! These DVRs will lose all HD cable channels."
may upgrade to Roamio and be in that same boat as kupe, when they would never have lost all HD channels in the first place. That's the poster's point - if he'd stuck with his TivoHD and got 11.0n instead of upgrading, he wouldn't be in the mess, losing channels, and out the money.

but presuming you have a TivoHD in service with 11.0m or prior, is this test from this thread going to offer software that is mpeg4 compatible? we don't know that, as it may just be the guide data...


lew said:


> We don't even know if the beta is for new software or if the changes for the new guide data supplier will all be done at tivo's end.


In which case the TivoHD owner is still left in a lurch if they are on comcast and Tivo refuses to deliver 11.0n (as documented in post #18 of this very same thread and multiple places elsewhere on this forum) even when the request is made and a case is opened with Tivo Support.

So has Tivo abandoned support of the TivoHD? or are they developing new software for it? Very mixed and contradictory messages being sent by different arms of Tivo. Or is it 11.0n that has been abandoned? and that's why it's not being made available by support with its successor is in the pipeline from development? That remains to be seen.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

tivoyahoo said:


> *was* released being the operative word. from the reports on this forum, it was available in certain comcast zip codes (mpeg4 transition markets that had migrated) beginning in January,


That's not true. My TiVo HD here in Staunton, VA received 11.0n back in January and we've had no indications that we're moving to MPEG4 anytime soon. I haven't seen any news for any Comcast market in VA moving to MPEG4 yet.

Scott


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

tivoyahoo said:


> *was* released being the operative word. from the reports on this forum, it was available in certain comcast zip codes (mpeg4 transition markets that had migrated) beginning in January, but only for a certain window of time and apparently that window is now closed.





HerronScott said:


> That's not true. My TiVo HD here in Staunton, VA received 11.0n back in January and we've had no indications that we're moving to MPEG4 anytime soon. I haven't seen any news for any Comcast market in VA moving to MPEG4 yet.


I see your point, and I should clarify and say the point I was trying to make was more about the timing of when it was more readily available, not *where* it was and was not available. That's why *was* was in asterisks - to highlight past tense. And the rest of that sentence finished "but only for a certain window of time and apparently that window is now closed" which gives it the proper context. and goes to the point trying to be made. And identifies that those markets where it *was* available, were no longer readily getting it. that's the point.

But even if you want to parse the statement and take it out of that ""when" context and make it about where, that portion still holds as true:
"it was available in certain comcast zip codes (mpeg4 transition markets that had migrated) beginning in January"

if the statement was to not be true, evidence of 11.0n not being able in mpeg4 markets would make it not true instead of evidence that it was available in a certain part of VA that wasn't mpeg4. The statement doesn't say only in those areas. or exclusively available in those comcast zip codes. or limited only to those zip codes. nothing of the sort. It simply says that it was available.

Again, the point is that the window closed in those transition markets where the very customers that need the 11.0n mpeg4 compatibility the most aren't able to get it. Talking about whether it was available in a non-mpeg4 or not, or how widespread the distribution was, and how it was spotty nationwide, misses the point. It's the mpeg4 markets that need the update and aren't readily getting it.

Now the reports of receiving the update are sparse when trying to force connections. while the reports of tivo support denying the update go on. in other words, while the window was open for a period, it seems nearly shut now for 11.0n is the real point. Here is a thread titled "Anyway to force a software update?" that goes to the point:

July 27:


shwru980r said:


> My 652 still has 11.0m and has been up and running for the past 7 years.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10946634#post10946634



mlcarson said:


> Tivo Support is being completely non-helpful.
> I went through the steps they outlined just to prove that it would make no difference and it didn't. I got a hold of somebody via phone support which tells me that 11.0K and 11.0M are the latest versions for the TivoHD. I told him that I know that wasn't true since 11.0N was deployed 6 months ago and provided H.264 MP4 support for the TivoHD. I gave him the version number of 11.0n.B1-01-2-652. He told me that was an older version but it didn't matter because they stopped providing software updates for the TivoHD last month and that they won't deploy any new software.
> 
> That's just wonderful. So, HerronScott -- I would appreciate that image.


if it was readily available, there wouldn't be image requests that were due to not being able to download the update.



sbourgeo said:


> Yeah, my TiVo HD is stuck at 11.0m and I want to have an 11.0n image to add to my archive just in case.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10957141#post10957141

If you want to look for statements not being true in that post, these are the better candidates:

"TiVo Series3 HD: IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED! These DVRs will lose all HD cable channels."

*all*

"BOLT Series UESs, Roamio Series DVRs, Premiere Series DVRs: Compatible with MPEG4. No change is required."


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I wonder if many 652/658 Tivo HDs got bricked by the 11.0n update?


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> I wonder if many 652/658 Tivo HDs got bricked by the 11.0n update?


don't think I've seen reports of getting bricked, but another poster just yesterday wishing for the 11.0n update and not getting it.



cmaquilino16 said:


> I wish TiVo would update my TiVo HD to get mpeg4 channels.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10962057#post10962057

although you have to be careful what you wish for...
https://forums.tivo.com/pe/action/forums/displaypost?postID=11278154


> "I have a TIVO HD (Series 652) with the update software 11.0n, however some of the channels display briefly but then the images freezes and audio stops. This is not in all channels, just some that I presume have migrated to the new format"


do we know if there is indeed a successor to 11.0n in this test?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

tivoyahoo said:


> Now the reports of receiving the update are sparse when trying to force connections. while the reports of tivo support denying the update go on. in other words, while the window was open for a period, it seems nearly shut now for 11.0n is the real point. Here is a thread titled "Anyway to force a software update?" that goes to the point:
> 
> July 27:
> 
> ...


Since TiVo has a support article for the Comcast transition that mentions this release supporting it for the HD model, I would definitely push TiVo and escalate it if they were not pushing 11.0n to an HD in a Comcast area moving to MPEG4 (including contacting TiVoMargret and TivoSupport_Sarah here).

Note that shwru980r is OTA so would not have gotten the update since it seemed to be targeting Comcast (although there were reports of FIOS users requesting it through support and getting it). mlcarson and sbourgeo should have gotten although mlcarson indicated his HD had been off for 9 months.

I thought I saw a post from someone else that had replaced a hard drive recently and had 11.0n downloaded and updated but I can't find it at the moment. My guess is that HD's that didn't get it have TSN's that weren't/aren't identified as being in a Comcast area.

Scott


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

HerronScott said:


> Since TiVo has a support article for the Comcast transition that mentions this release supporting it for the HD model


yes, the support article says this:



> TiVo HD and TiVo HD XL: DVRs with a TSN prefix of 652 or 658 are now compatible with Comcast's MPEG-4 format.
> 
> TiVo Series3 HD: IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED! These DVRs will lose all HD cable channels


and that was one of the points of confusion in this thread as to whether a TivoHD was a Series 3 for purposes of the test in this thread. Because in the support article they treat TivoHD separately and not as being Series3. and spelled out the tsn numbers for TivoHD, but in this thread Tivo did not. So it's inconsistent and confusing. But yet Tivo names Tivo Series 3 HD as losing all HD channels, but don't name the tsn. So again that's confusing calling the TivoHD a Series 3 in this setting, but not in the other. and the mpeg4 transition is already confusing enough as it is for customers without tivo adding more unnecessarily when the names are not clear and where they could easily clear it up by naming the model number / tsn prefix, whether it's in this thread or in support articles.

When what would become 11.0n for TivoHD was in test phase and later released the question was asked if the S3 648 would get an mpeg4 compatible release. So that question arises again with this new test software: If Tivo is going to update the S3 648, are they going to make it mpeg4 compatible? isn't the hardware compatible and it's just a software issue? It's relevant because late in 2015 Tivo was telling people in comcast mpeg4 markets they needed to upgrade their TivoHD's or else they would "lose all HD channels". Well that was never true in the first place since no market has or plans to convert all mpeg2 HD channels to mpeg4. But worse was when customers upgraded to Roamio only to have TivoHD get the mpeg4 update, and then their Roamios upgrades started failing on mpeg4 channels.

And I spoke to tivo support just yesterday on the roamio mpeg4 problem but also asked about TivoHD and was told the same thing others have posted, that the TivoHD isn't being supported with any updates.



HerronScott said:


> I would definitely push TiVo and escalate it if they were not pushing 11.0n to an HD in a Comcast area moving to MPEG4 (including contacting TiVoMargret and TivoSupport_Sarah here).


from mcarlson's posts it's clear he pushed and pushed and ran into a brick wall. Here's another of his many posts on the topic, this one from July 27, which included emailing Margret...


mlcarson said:


> I have a Tivo HD that I'm trying to put back into production until the H.264 thing is fixed on the Roamio. Unfortunately, it's stuck at 11.0m so no H.264 support for now. I've emailed [email protected] (no response) and created a support ticket for it tonight. No amount of forcing connects to tivo.com has done anything to get 11.0n yet. This is with the 93436 zipcode which is definitely transitioned to H.264.





HerronScott said:


> I thought I saw a post from someone else that had replaced a hard drive recently and had 11.0n downloaded and updated but I can't find it at the moment. My guess is that HD's that didn't get it have TSN's that weren't/aren't identified as being in a Comcast area.


The most recent success with 11.0n that I've seen was July 30:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10950426#post10950426



trooper1 said:


> I have a TivoHD that hadn't been plugged in for probably 2-3 years, and was disappointed to read this -- I was eventually (read: ok, probably never) going to get around to selling it, so it would have sucked if it was going to be stuck on older SW. I plugged it in and was happy to see it got the 11.0n update on the first call.
> 
> If that really is the current policy, it appears there are exceptions. Perhaps that mine was setup for a MPEG4 provider, or maybe that the software that was running was old enough to warrant an update apart from any MPEG4 consideration.


trooper1 is in chicago, which is a mpeg4 comcast area, and is noteworthy because I've only seen 3 reports of receiving Roamio update 20.6.1a.RC7, and each has been in chicago: whoareyou_1999, cherry ghost, and again - trooper1...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10962321#post10962321

So it seems Tivo has mapped Chicago for updates and has some sort of fast track lane for the latest. but this poster in a suburb of chicago that is mpeg4 hasn't received that same update:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10961017#post10961017

So 11.0n is spotty and sparse at best at this point in time. And if you follow the posts for trying to get it, they get no help from Tivo, and the real only help I've seen offered is a PM from HerronScott. Thanks Scott for helping on this :up: and picking up the slack where Tivo has dropped the ball. But posters having to beg for an image isn't the real answer. if there is an update for TivoHD, the beta should be made public and readily available given the lack of support and availability with 11.0n. And especially with tivo customers turning to TivoHD to record h.264 channels that roamio doesn't.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Sorry too much content to respond to with quotes and all but I'll respond with at least my thoughts on some of your points (questions?).

I do not believe that the original S3 OLED (648 model) will get any additional MPEG4 capabilities with regards to recording content on cable providers with new update for Rovi guide data. I don't believe any code was written to support this while it was in production while the HD model benefitted from having a model based on the HD released in Australia so they were able to use this code to make 11.0n for the HD models.

Since the update for the Rovi guide data will need to go out to all S3 OLED and HD models (with whatever the final version number will be - 11.0o maybe?), it has to still include the MPEG4 update included in 11.0n for the HD's and all active HD's will get that capability then.

The above are just my thoughts/guesses and not based on any facts. 

There have always been confusions between the original S3 OLED and the HD models since they belong to the Series 3 family but the way they named them left lots of points open for confusion. It would be best if TSN's were always used but it doesn't happen that way even for information from TiVo. That support article did not have the TSN listed originally but they later added them presumably to make it less confusing.

Trooper1 was the recent drive replacement/update to 11.0n that I recalled reading so thanks for finding that. 

It will be interesting to see how long the beta lasts before they start rolling this update out in production (which is tied to how long they can continue to use Tribune data which we haven't heard any official word on).

Scott


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

HerronScott said:


> I do not believe that the original S3 OLED (648 model) will get any additional MPEG4 capabilities with regards to recording content on cable providers with new update for Rovi guide data. I don't believe any code was written to support this while it was in production while the HD model benefitted from having a model based on the HD released in Australia so they were able to use this code to make 11.0n for the HD models.
> 
> Since the update for the Rovi guide data will need to go out to all S3 OLED and HD models (with whatever the final version number will be - 11.0o maybe?), it has to still include the MPEG4 update included in 11.0n for the HD's and all active HD's will get that capability then.
> 
> The above are just my thoughts/guesses and not based on any facts.


The thoughts/guesses are appreciated. Good info and insight on the mpeg4 update for the TivoHD as far as the Australia predecessor already in place and laying the groundwork :up:

But going back to last year, I don't think the mpeg4 update was expected for the TivoHD. Especially with Tivo initially saying TivoHD was incompatible with mpeg4 and required customers to upgrade to a newer model. And the fact that TivoHD got a software update was more of a surprise. So while Tivo has other priorities (guide data update, roamio mpeg4 issue, audio), who knows, maybe there will likewise be a surprise S3 mpeg4 update rolled in with the guide data update. Again, not expected, but a question worth asking if you're an S3 648 owner and wondering and thinking about updating the hardware since there is some precedent in the case of the TivoHD for it unexpectedly getting an mpeg4 update. And maybe the work on the TivoHD mpeg4 update laid some groundwork for the S3 648 in that regard.

And then going back to the 11.0n TivoHD, there is still a known acknowledged issue that is unresolved - posted quote Feb 29 from:

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10812041#post10812041



TiVoSupport_Sarah said:


> We have a Known Issue for TiVo HD's having an issue with the MPEG4 after SW Update.


That issue was mentioned in post #36 of this same thread - "image freezes and audio stops" on mpeg4 channels. So is that a reason why 11.0n has been limited in availability - the known problem? Is there a rework of the software to fix the acknowledged issue? And Tivo plans to roll out the successor software to both fix that issue and update the guide data handling?

And if the TivoHD is getting a rework on the mpeg4 software, it's reasonable for an S3 648 owner to again ask if that model might get an mpeg4 compatibility update as part of this test software. I'm not saying to get any hopes up on that, especially since Tivo would seem to have little incentive to update that model, but that would have seemed to have been the case for TivoHD as well. Just saying might want to wait and see before upgrading to another model, especially Roamio given that mpeg4 situation, and see if Roamio gets fully resolved as well.

So I'm saying in regard to mpeg4, with Tivo clearly having to rework the Roamio software, and perhaps fixing the TivoHD software as well, it's reasonable to think Tivo might (and I stress might) update the S3 648. Not saying it's likely, just saying that mpeg4 seemingly is getting attention and resources, and S3 648 might get rolled in. So it's a valid question and worth waiting and seeing. And with this test, there might be some answers soon on mpeg4 as far as a TivoHD mpeg4 fix and integration for S3 648.


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## wtkflhn (May 12, 2006)

Attn: TIVOYAHOO. It's my understanding that there are hardware issues that stop the S3/648 from getting MPEG4 H.264 broadcasts. Not software issue.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

wtkflhn said:


> It's my understanding that there are hardware issues that stop the S3/648 from getting MPEG4 H.264 broadcasts. Not software issue.


Can you expand on the hardware issues being a limitation? I do remember seeing some discussion on that when what would become 11.0n for the TivoHD was in testing, and Scott offered this info last December:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10733413#post10733413



HerronScott said:


> The 648 does have an MPEG-4 hardware decoder although it's a separate chip instead of being integrated as it is on the HD. The difference might be they actually have code from the Austrialian HD for MPEG-4 that they can adapt to support MPEG-4 for the US HD model.
> 
> *S3 OLED*
> *CPU: *Broadcom BCM7038 system-on-a-chip, including the MPEG-2 decoder.
> ...


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

wtkflhn said:


> Attn: TIVOYAHOO. It's my understanding that there are hardware issues that stop the S3/648 from getting MPEG4 H.264 broadcasts. Not software issue.


There is no such hardware _limitation_. Different hardware, but equally capable of mpeg4 reception. The existing software for the s3 (as opposed to the HD) would have to be modified, while the HD software was already modified years ago.

That has not been done and likely won't be. I'm not even sure there is anyone at Tivo capable of doing it any more and they won't open it up for user patching.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

Wil said:


> ...the HD software was already modified years ago.


11.0n for TivoHD went into testing on this forum Dec 2105 and released Jan 2016:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=535049


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

tivoyahoo said:


> 11.0n for TivoHD went into testing on this forum Dec 2105 and released Jan 2016:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=535049


The relevant portions of 11.0n were written, tested and implemented years ago.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

Wil said:


> The relevant portions of 11.0n were written, tested and implemented years ago.


do you mean when the mpeg4 portions were written for the Australian HD model? and that 11.0n was just an adaptation of that code for the US? and not much that was original. thank you for the insight / assessment. So based on this:


Wil said:


> I'm not even sure there is anyone at Tivo capable of doing it any more and they won't open it up for user patching.


I'm guessing you're saying not to expect or even hope for a mpeg4 fix for 11.0n even though tivo has acknowledged an mpeg4 issue in 11.0n on TivoHD:
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10812041#post10812041

and that a 648 mpeg4 release would even be even more of a longshot than an 11.0n TivoHD mpeg4 fix. So these are entirely software issues (not hardware), but doubtful they will get addressed. I can see that being the case. and this is just guide data update, not anything more. Is that a fair read on what you're saying?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

tivoyahoo said:


> I'm guessing you're saying not to expect or even hope for a mpeg4 fix for 11.0n even though tivo has acknowledged an mpeg4 issue in 11.0n on TivoHD


I think such a fix is possible, better than 50/50. I understand there is decently documented source code.

Fixes to such existing code are one thing. For the s3 there are several complex routines that would have to be written from scratch. There was some thinking early on that it might be primarily addressing for the different hardware on the s3 but my understanding now is it's way beyond that.


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## danm628 (May 14, 2002)

Wil said:


> There is no such hardware _limitation_. Different hardware, but equally capable of mpeg4 reception. The existing software for the s3 (as opposed to the HD) would have to be modified, while the HD software was already modified years ago.
> 
> That has not been done and likely won't be. I'm not even sure there is anyone at Tivo capable of doing it any more and they won't open it up for user patching.


Actually from looking at the datasheets the BCM7411 does appear to have some limitations compared to the BCM7401. In particular notice that the 7411 calls out specific AVC profiles where the 7401 just says "to level 4.1".

Without talking to Broadcom or having the programming guide it isn't clear if that is a real difference or just a difference due to how the datasheet was written. The 7401 datasheet has less information about audio/video and more about general CPU features.

BCM7411:
 Multi-standard video decoding support for:
 MPEG-2 [email protected]
 MPEG-2 [email protected]
 AVC [email protected] for 480i
 AVC [email protected] 720p
 AVC [email protected] 1080i
 AVC [email protected] 1080i for Blu-Ray and HD DVD​ Multi-standard audio decoding
 MPEG2 AAC-LC- Stereo and 5.1
 MPEG4 AAC HE (High Quality)-Stereo (level 2) and 5.1 (level 4)
 MP3 (MPEG1 layer 3)
 Dolby® Digital Plus
 Dolby Digital Plus to Dolby Digital transcode​
BCM7401:
 Advanced HD AVC/MPEG-2/VC-1 decoder
 H.264/AVC main and high profile to level 4.1
 VC-1 advanced profile @ level 3
 VC-1 simple and main profile
 HD MPEG-2 and SD MPEG-2
 MPEG still-picture decode​ Advanced audio processor supporting the following:
 AAC LC, AAC LC+SBR level 2, AAC+ level 2
 Dolby® Digital, Dolby Digital Plus
 MPEG I layers 1, 2, and 3 (MP3)
 Windows Media® audio
 One pair of on-chip stereo high-fidelity audio DACs
 3D SRS audio support​
- Dan


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

danm628 said:


> Actually from looking at the datasheets the BCM7411 does appear to have some limitations compared to the BCM7401. In particular notice that the 7411 calls out specific AVC profiles where the 7401 just says "to level 4.1".
> 
> Without talking to Broadcom or having the programming guide it isn't clear if that is a real difference or just a difference due to how the datasheet was written. The 7401 datasheet has less information about audio/video and more about general CPU features.
> 
> ...


Those *seem* to say the same thing to me just with less detail for the BCM7401 (although the BCM7411 only seems to list high profile up to level 4.1 with no mention of main profile. This is in the text of the datasheet for the 7401 as well.

"AVC support is for main- and high-profile to level 4.1 for 720p and 1080i high-definition support or to level 3.1 for standard definition streams. AVC high profile was added to the fidelity range extensions specifically to address the needs of consumer broadcast and playback applications."

And you can see what each level's specifications are here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC#Levels

Scott


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## danm628 (May 14, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> Those *seem* to say the same thing to me just with less detail for the BCM7401 (although the BCM7411 only seems to list high profile up to level 4.1 with no mention of main profile. This is in the text of the datasheet for the 7401 as well.
> 
> "AVC support is for main- and high-profile to level 4.1 for 720p and 1080i high-definition support or to level 3.1 for standard definition streams. AVC high profile was added to the fidelity range extensions specifically to address the needs of consumer broadcast and playback applications."


That's why I said you need to see the programming guide.

I've run into a lot of chips where the two/three page datasheet said they had the same features. Buried in the program guide would be the subtle differences showing they didn't have exactly the same features.

I couldn't find either programming guide in a quick Google search.

Of course that level of detailed information usually requires a signed NDA. And some indication that you are going to actually purchase parts.

Even if the features are the same the APIs are probably different due to be a standalone chip versus an integrated SOC. So it could be a lot of work for a small development team at TiVo.

I would love for TiVo to make my Series 3 OLED work with the new MPEG4 channels. I finally purchased a HDTV antenna last week. I'm going to be moving my Series 3 to the bedroom and adding the antenna to get local HDTV channels.

I'm also sad to see that program guide data will end for Series 1. Though I haven't turned my Series 1 on in years. Whenever Comcast switched to all digital on the local system. I still miss the original peanut remote; it fit my hand better than the later ones do.

- Dan


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Forget it - Broadcom manuals are under heavy NDA (been there, done that). They're also not very good, so that won't help much.

Most likely the specifications came direct from the IP licensor of the decoding block they used, and it's completely possible Broadcom switched IP blocks because of issues with the old block. (This could be anything - either it didn't work properly, or more likely the IP provider didn't provide sufficient support to implement the decoder).


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## danm628 (May 14, 2002)

Worf said:


> Forget it - Broadcom manuals are under heavy NDA (been there, done that). They're also not very good, so that won't help much.
> 
> Most likely the specifications came direct from the IP licensor of the decoding block they used, and it's completely possible Broadcom switched IP blocks because of issues with the old block. (This could be anything - either it didn't work properly, or more likely the IP provider didn't provide sufficient support to implement the decoder).


I used Broadcom chips in several projects a couple of employers ago. (i.e. 15+ years ago) The chips worked fine once you managed to figure out the documentation.

You're right about the IP block. They could have swapped decoders between chips. Or they could have found/fixed a bug in either IP module or in their connections to it.

With chips this old it would be hard to find out what changed and why.

- Dan


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

So has anyone else here been contacted by tivo about this (black) beta project besides, phox_mulder?


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## wtkflhn (May 12, 2006)

Teeps said:


> So has anyone else here been contacted by tivo about this (black) beta project besides, phox_mulder?


Not me.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Teeps said:


> Well I guess that answers the question if a modded tivo is eligible.
> 
> As of this morning I have not heard back from [email protected].


Yes a modded unit is eligible.. my application was accepted and I'm in.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Teeps said:


> So has anyone else here been contacted by tivo about this (black) beta project besides, phox_mulder?


I never finished the registration process either, and I think the window may have closed.

IMHO, I've gotten a very long and productive life out of my S3, and honestly I don't really need it anymore, as I have 12 tuners in my various Roamio's.
If it continues to work, great.
If it suddenly dies, I'll give it a proper burial and down a pint in it's honor.

phox


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## danm628 (May 14, 2002)

Teeps said:


> So has anyone else here been contacted by tivo about this (black) beta project besides, phox_mulder?


My S3 OLED is now in the beta. I'm on my third HD at this point. (Original drive, first 1 TB drive, replacement 1 TB drive when the first died.) Plus I replaced the power supply when that went out.

- Dan

P.S. Thank you Weaknees, I didn't want to do that much soldering. Or even spend the time to find the soldering iron. Much easier just swap a supply with them.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Teeps said:


> So has anyone else here been contacted by tivo about this (black) beta project besides, phox_mulder?


We shouldn't tell you if we were right? 

Scott


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

HerronScott said:


> We shouldn't tell you if we were right?
> 
> Scott


No. I want to know if you were contacted.

It's rude to put out an invitation, then not acknowledge the contact.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Teeps said:


> No. I want to know if you were contacted.
> 
> It's rude to put out an invitation, then not acknowledge the contact.


I was contacted for my 2 S3 OLED's and HD.

Scott


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## karpodiem (Mar 18, 2008)

so there is an active beta program, but it's hit or miss at to whether you'll actually get in?

I mean, that's fine. I'm just happy to hear they haven't given up on the 652160 model. Hopefully it leads to a public release, one day.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

karpodiem said:


> so there is an active beta program, but it's hit or miss at to whether you'll actually get in?


Would appear so.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

all non s1 are supposed to get a software update per this from 8/17:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10970085#post10970085


Ira Bahr said:


> There is a two-step process. Just this week, we updated the software on the S2-S6 boxes for the new data feeds. Starting next week we will be transitioning these boxes to the new data. During that download which will occur in the early AM hours and take two to three hours, the box will not be fully functional. After that, the DVR will function normally. We've done a ton of testing but we're counting on you guys to post any anomalies you might observe. Right now, we think the most obvious defect will be generic poster art on certain assets.


but this hasn't seemed to have proven true as far as S2-S3:
"we updated the software on the S2-S6 boxes for the new data feeds."
since no one has apparently posted receiving new software on S2-S3 models.



tivoyahoo said:


> I don't believe there is a single post report of an S2 update either. Only S4-6 updates have been posted which have a common software version number. If S3 & S2 were receiving updates I think we'd see posts with 11.0_ (S3) or 9.___ (whatever is next for the S2) by now. But maybe those posts are out there? But a software version change is pretty quick to trigger posts when users see pending restart. So perhaps those series are being held back at this point for a later phase / staggered rollout of guide data release.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

Has anyone here received the update?
What is the ver number?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Teeps said:


> Has anyone here received the update?
> What is the ver number?


I think it's still in beta testing at least for the S3/HD's.

Scott


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

In another thread it was said that ver 20.6.1a.RC10 (premier/roamio) is the update.
My xl4 & roamio basic both have that version software, but I have not noticed any thing different... which I guess is good.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Teeps said:


> In another thread it was said that ver 20.6.1a.RC10 (premier/roamio) is the update.
> My xl4 & roamio basic both have that version software, but I have not noticed any thing different... which I guess is good.


Unless you are in one of the locations that had problems with some Comcast H.264 channels, you won't see a difference until you are transitioned to Rovi data.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Teeps said:


> In another thread it was said that ver 20.6.1a.RC10 (premier/roamio) is the update.
> My xl4 & roamio basic both have that version software, but I have not noticed any thing different... which I guess is good.


That's the update for those newer machines, the Series 3 devices are all on an 11.0.x operating system branch and from what I understand the update will be within that framework.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

lpwcomp said:


> Unless you are in one of the locations that had problems with some Comcast H.264 channels, you won't see a difference until you are transitioned to Rovi data.


Have timewarner here.



dianebrat said:


> That's the update for those newer machines, the Series 3 devices are all on an 11.0.x operating system branch and from what I understand the update will be within that framework.


Roger that!


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

Teeps said:


> Have timewarner here.


if you get an update coming from 11.0m on a 648/652/658 to newer software, then you may see changes on mpeg4 channels (which TWC uses but maybe not on your system), but that doesn't have anything to do with rovi data being applied.

but if you have 11.0m on a 648/652/658, it wouldn't be receiving the mpeg4 channels now, but you would see those channels (if they exist on your system and are ones you subscribe to) on the premiere and roamio. and you would see those channels on a 652/658 with 11.0n, which was a mpgeg4 compatibility realease in January but hasn't been easy to get. 648 has been on 11.0m for some time. So that's how to check if you've gotten the first stage of the process, the software update, or not for series 3.

And anyone who has been sitting on 11.0m with a 652/658 without mpeg4 and unable to get 11.0n can hopefully get an update that is an even newer software version.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

tivoyahoo said:


> if you get an update coming from 11.0m on a 648/652/658 to newer software, then you may see changes on mpeg4 channels (which TWC uses but maybe not on your system), but that doesn't have anything to do with rovi data being applied.


My 648250 had been on m for a long time.
Don't know if timerwarner uses mpeg4, no premium channels for me.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

Teeps said:


> My 648250 had been on m for a long time.
> Don't know if timerwarner uses mpeg4, no premium channels for me.


mpeg4 wouldn't necessarily be premium. but if there are any channels your premiere and roamio do receive that the 648 doesn't, look in dvr diagnostics on the roamio or premiere and see if it's a h.264 if you want to find out. or use spsrs viewing method and you can spot mpeg4/h.264 that way:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10942141


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

tivoyahoo said:


> mpeg4 wouldn't necessarily be premium. but if there are any channels your premiere and roamio do receive that the 648 doesn't, look in dvr diagnostics on the roamio or premiere and see if it's a h.264 if you want to find out. or use spsrs viewing method and you can spot mpeg4/h.264 that way:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10942141


Thanks for that info.
My roamio is ota.
the other 2 are on cable cards & tuning adapters, all channels I'm interested in tune on both...

We digress, should we swerve back on topic?


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