# New EyeTV Software - Alternative to TiVo?



## scgf (Oct 24, 2000)

I use EyeTV on my Mac - a Freeview box connected via firewire to my iMac. Yesterday I upgraded the software to EyeTV v3 and was delighted to find it supports series links and wishlists. You can put in an actor, title whatever and it will find anything in the listings which matches. What's more, you can set it to auto-record anything matching.

There are some pretty exciting features like wireless access to recordings. EyeTV also allows you to edit recordings to, say, remove adverts and create a clean start and finish and can burn directly to DVDR via Roxio Toast which can add good looking front-end with menus.

You can find out more on the Elgato website. Just tried to put a link here but it wouldn't display. Just put a www before and dot com after and you'll get there. BTW, if anyone decides to buy the upgrade, use the US site as their price in Euros and US Dollars is identical, hence for us the price in dollars works out cheaper.

I know this isn't TiVo related, but we are always on the lookout for alternatives since the TiVo company has no interest in the UK anymore. A Mac Mini could be an interesting alternative to a TiVo now. All Macs come with a remote controller and EyeTV integrates into FrontRoom, Apple's TV menu system.


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## scgf (Oct 24, 2000)

I am surprised that my post has been viewed 105 times but nobody has anything at all to say about it.

I assume that you all think EyeTV is not a possible alternative to the TiVo. I am in a minority of one!


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

scgf said:


> I use EyeTV on my Mac - a Freeview box connected via firewire to my iMac. Yesterday I upgraded the software to EyeTV v3 and was delighted to find it supports series links and wishlists. You can put in an actor, title whatever and it will find anything in the listings which matches. What's more, you can set it to auto-record anything matching.


Does it have any sort of restriction (keep at most) ?

Other systems with wishlist like features tend to wildly record too many matching programmes, which doesn't help if the system doesn't have some method of pruning old programmes.

E.g. Virgin's V+ box only recently added the feature to delete old recordings when the disk is full.
Previously the box just stopped recording any new programmes when the disk was full.


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

scgf said:


> I am surprised that my post has been viewed 105 times but nobody has anything at all to say about it.
> 
> I assume that you all think EyeTV is not a possible alternative to the TiVo. I am in a minority of one!


I've nothing too contributory to add, other than I've recently been toying with getting a Mac Mini to use as a Media PC. Since you've pointed this out I've also looked at the possibility of getting the EyeTV Diversity (dual tuner) and this software to run in parallel with TiVo to see how it compares. However, it seems a considerable additional expense over the Mac Mini, so I can't see getting the EyeTV any time soon. I live in a flakey area for freeview reception, so forking out an additional £130 and finding it doesn't work too well would be a little jarring to say the least.

Ian


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Firstly the majority of people here won't use Macs and thus this will reduce interest plus I suspect people here are possibly becoming tired of posters who now regularly pop up in a kind of Christian into the Lions Den sort of way saying "isn't my shiny new PVR soution really much better than what your old Tivos do" when most of the old timers here believe that if examined really critically and thoroughly Tivo is still better.

Also lastly I suspect very few people here have actually tried Eye Tv yet and thus they can't give you any opinion.

So that is probably why you have had so little response.

Also there are only a couple of weeks left to go until the end of the tax year now.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Ian reflects my views really - I don't have any Apple stuff (unless you count the children's iPods), &#163;300-&#163;400 for the Mini alone puts it into the 'after we've replaced the sofa' category (i.e. never), and further costs for software means 'nice, but oh well'.

Since I was lucky at Christmas and managed to get a Wii, I'm more tempted to look at the media software floating around for that...


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## scgf (Oct 24, 2000)

Thanks for your views guys. I can see that it is going to be expensive, but being a computer solution it will do lots of other things like create DVDs, access the internet etc..

I will have to look if it prunes old programmes in any way. I suspect it will not.

I bought into TiVo as soon as it came out in the UK and I would love to able to use one of the newer generations available in the States. Unfortunately, nothing apart from SkyHD gives me the picture quality I crave, so even the truly awful Sky+ software offers me more of what I want than TiVo can this side of the pond.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

scgf said:


> Thanks for your views guys. I can see that it is going to be expensive, but being a computer solution it will do lots of other things like create DVDs, access the internet etc.


Sounds like you haven't updated your Tivo with a network card, Tivoweb and a larger hard drive though.

If you had done so then must of the extra features you perceive you will gain by going to Eye Tv would already exist on your Tivo.

As the longer term hard core here have nearly all upgraded their Tivos that is probably why we are not persuaded that newer PVR technology is yet better in the way that those who have steered clear of ever opening or upgrading your Tivo boxes are now tending to do.


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## scgf (Oct 24, 2000)

Oh yes. I no longer have my TiVo, but I did add a cachecard, used TiVoWeb, enabled mode 0, used a Mac tool similar to TyTool (can't remember what it was called now), upgraded the hard drive, installed several other hacks etc. etc. I pushed it as far as possible. Indeed I have been a member of this forum since October 2000 so have lots of experience.

TiVo only accepts an analog source whereas a FreeView or Sky+ solution records the raw digital stream. Thus recording from EyeTV means that DVDs of high quality can be created without converting from analog to digital, then maybe back again once or twice.

Don't get me wrong, the TiVo software has not been bettered and I would love to still be using it but with HD!

The Mac solution would be interesting in that Apple will be offering rental downloads of films in HD and these would be accessible as well as recordings of TV programming and conventional DVDs.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

scgf said:


> Oh yes. I no longer have my TiVo, but I did add a cachecard, used TiVoWeb, enabled mode 0, used a Mac tool similar to TyTool (can't remember what it was called now), upgraded the hard drive, installed several other hacks etc. etc. I pushed it as far as possible. Indeed I have been a member of this forum since October 2000 so have lots of experience.


It seems I clearly misunderstood your past involvement and knowledge and experience of Tivo upgrading as you have not posted much in more recent times.



> TiVo only accepts an analog source whereas a FreeView or Sky+ solution records the raw digital stream. Thus recording from EyeTV means that DVDs of high quality can be created without converting from analog to digital, then maybe back again once or twice.


I accept that if ultimate visual quality and DVD archiving is important to you that may be a reason to move on elsewhere. However for me I am not so fussed about visual quality but am very fussy about the PVR interface and having as much control as possible of what gets recorded and I also find the odd Suggestion useful. I also like the fact that UK Tivo users are a little known and quirky elite group.



> Don't get me wrong, the TiVo software has not been bettered and I would love to still be using it but with HD!


It seems Tivo now have new plans with Nero that will make a PC version of their software available in virtually any territory worldwide where there is an established EPG source. This should be a direct head on rival to Windows MCE, except with the problem that unlike MCE there would presumably be a monthly charge for the EPG data. But obviously issues like multiples tuners and HD support would be fully taken care of.

My gut instinct is that Tivo PC software ought to still be better than Windows MCE in respect of some important features but if it isn't how will they justify charging a monthly EPG subscription while Windows MCE does not??


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## davisa (Feb 19, 2002)

I'm a long time eyetv user who's recently upgraded to version 3 (from the US site as its £10 more in the UK!)

While the new version is a vast improvement on the last, I still find it significantly more primative than TiVo. The new smart lists are good, but not a patch on TiVo season passes. Also the program guide is still badly laid out - so much so that I use tivoweb to search and then set stuff on eyetv. 

I still have yet to find anything capable of replacing TiVo, and not through lack of trying! Eyetv is a partial solution, I use it for stuff I want to keep or watch whilst on the move (iPod) 

Just my opinion. 

Ps. This is typed on an iPhone and surprisingly it knows the correct capitialisation for TiVo!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

davisa said:


> Ps. This is typed on an iPhone and surprisingly it knows the correct capitialisation for TiVo!


Perhaps not so surprising consider the iPhone's primary target market.........


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> Perhaps not so surprising consider the iPhone's primary target market.........


People who want to type "TiVo"?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Raisltin Majere said:


> People who want to type "TiVo"?


No - I meant well off people living in the USA (the land of Tivo).

For instance would you or I consider getting an Iphone like we did getting a Tivo? Answer no because although its pretty and gimmicky it doesn't do anything special that far cheaper PDA 3G type phones don't also do better with more functionality.


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## tweety (Feb 28, 2005)

Well actually I considered getting an iphone, but I begrudge the price, especially as I didn't primarily want the phone functionality


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

tweety said:


> Well actually I considered getting an iphone, but I begrudge the price, especially as I didn't primarily want the phone functionality


I am sure we may all have considered getting one but two things seem to rule it out:-

(a) No 3G phone capability in a device that is surely all about the internet and data access so the fastest possible access being important

(b) heavily over priced for the functionality on offer.

To me it will only therefore actually be brought by the image and branding conscious but technologically relatively ignorant individual to whom the excitement of owning the latest status symbol will some how offset the IPhone's many actual deficiencies and the fact that it will soon be superceded by a version of itself that supports the critical features the first IPhone lacks.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

The lack of 3G is definitely a problem, but I don't think the actual device is over priced; the fact it's only on a very expensive contract is the issue.

The idea that iPhones are only attractive to "technologically relatively ignorant individuals" is laughable, frankly. As a TiVo owner surely you of all people should recognise that a stunningly brilliant user interface can more than compensate for not being at the cutting edge in performance stats? Or are we TiVo owners "ignorant" too?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> The lack of 3G is definitely a problem, but I don't think the actual device is over priced; the fact it's only on a very expensive contract is the issue.


Are you not able to perceive that the fact it is only on a very expensive contract is about the fact it is overpriced because a very expensive contract is all about you cross subsidising the real cost of the phone that comes with it without seeing the actual price tag of the phone.

Perhaps you still believe your mobile phone comes free to you with an expensive contract???


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

The iPhone is not subsidised to the consumer. That's why its so expensive.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> The iPhone is not subsidised to the consumer.


Because at pesent there is a shortage of supply so they rely on shafting the early adopter unlimited budget and style victim types to maximise their profits.

The later model Iphone with more features and 3G will no doubt be less of a ripoff because it will look entirely similar to most of the fashion victims who will keep what they have got and will still be in a contract and so the price will begin to fall at that stage.


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## TonyW (Mar 26, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> It seems Tivo now have new plans with Nero that will make a PC version of their software available in virtually any territory worldwide where there is an established EPG source. This should be a direct head on rival to Windows MCE, except with the problem that unlike MCE there would presumably be a monthly charge for the EPG data. But obviously issues like multiples tuners and HD support would be fully taken care of.
> 
> My gut instinct is that Tivo PC software ought to still be better than Windows MCE in respect of some important features but if it isn't how will they justify charging a monthly EPG subscription while Windows MCE does not??


What is the latest on this TiVo/Nero scheme? Is it the best hope we have of TiVo re-entering the UK market? I have to say the built-in DVD you'd have with a PC- (or Mac-) based setup is a big plus in my book.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Are you not able to perceive that the fact it is only on a very expensive contract is about the fact it is overpriced because a very expensive contract is all about you cross subsidising the real cost of the phone that comes with it without seeing the actual price tag of the phone.
> 
> Perhaps you still believe your mobile phone comes free to you with an expensive contract???


We know how much it costs; you can buy one contract free in France for about £500 or so.

A Nokia N5 costs you £450 SIM-free, a Blackberry 8800 £500.

Expensive, certainly, but not wildly out of line with the others.

You didn't answer my question though: are we TiVo early adopters who prefer the user interface of our machines over the superior technology and performance of rivals also "ignorant" and "fashion victims"? Or do these things only apply to phones?


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## davisa (Feb 19, 2002)

I wasn't trying to move the thread off-topic (honest!), but here's my opinion anyway! I bought the iPhone for exactly the same reasons that I use TiVo - usability. Best phone/PDA I've owed by a huge margin. It has features nothing else does, in the same way as I'm still unable to find a replacement for TiVo. other devices might be beter on paper but when you come to use them they just don't deliver. The iPhone is a truely wonderful bit of kit, and I wouldn't part with mine for anything less than a 3G version 

Tivoweb works really well on it too!

Ps. I find the &#163;35/month tariff excellent value. I've used over 200mb data plus free wifi as I'm using right now


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

davisa said:


> Tivoweb works really well on it too!


Staying OT 

I was playing with my TiVoweb via a friend's iPod (not iPhone) Touch a few days ago and was pretty impressed. I struggled to easily use the touch screen keyboard, although having said that, I imagine it's something you get used with regular playing.

I've never been tempted by iPods having felt that other MP3 players offered more/better functionality at a lower price, but that one has tempted me. However the price and low(ish) storage are keeping me at bay for the time being.

Cheers,

Ian


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> You didn't answer my question though: are we TiVo early adopters who prefer the user interface of our machines over the superior technology and performance of rivals also "ignorant" and "fashion victims"? Or do these things only apply to phones?


No we Tivo users are absolutely not and never will be "fashion victims" as one of the major reasons Tivos originally failed to sell well in droves and to convince people to part with £400 + £200 (= £600) was that the design of the box failed to convey properly just what it could do.

Had Tivo spent a little more money on a TFT display in the front panel that could should the Now Playing screen and cursor keys to navigate up and down it and indeed to use the whole menu system and also used this to show the currently recording program the thing would have sold like hot cakes as it would have immediately looked impressive and been exciting to gadget fans.

We who continue to use Tivo now are definitely not fashion victims but are like the middle aged man who likes to stick with his trusty pipe and old pair of slippers purely because they perform the function admirably and also very comfortable to use.

I do not believe anyone bought a Tivo to impress their mates because it always looked an overweight fat thing with no exciting nobs to press or flashing lights on the unit and was not portable to the pub or the office.

An Iphone is all about being seen with it at a smart wine bar or at Starbucks etc and using it to take calls or send emails expecting everyone around you to swoon and fall on the floor with envy.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> An Iphone is all about being seen with it at a smart wine bar or at Starbucks etc and using it to take calls or send emails expecting everyone around you to swoon and fall on the floor with envy.


I'm sure there's some of that with some people.

But it is one hell of a portable device, and I can only think you're being so dismissive of it because you can't afford one, in the same way as you've been dismissive of widescreen TVs and high definition. Jealousy doesn't suit you Pete.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

davisa said:


> I wasn't trying to move the thread off-topic (honest!), but here's my opinion anyway! I bought the iPhone for exactly the same reasons that I use TiVo - usability. Best phone/PDA I've owed by a huge margin. It has features nothing else does, in the same way as I'm still unable to find a replacement for TiVo. other devices might be beter on paper but when you come to use them they just don't deliver. The iPhone is a truely wonderful bit of kit, and I wouldn't part with mine for anything less than a 3G version


I also apologise for keeping the thread off-topic but...
I played with one in the shop and found typing a text message to be rather difficult. 
As I remember it, I couldn't hit the right keys (which seemed close together) on the on-screen keyboard, and I have rather delicate fingers for a man.

How are you finding typing?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> But it is one hell of a portable device, and I can only think you're being so dismissive of it because you can't afford one, in the same way as you've been dismissive of widescreen TVs and high definition. Jealousy doesn't suit you Pete.


I obviously could afford a widescreen television in as much as unlike an Iphone one would hope to have a useful life of 5 to 10 years, whereas the current Iphone would doubtless be no good for more than a couple of years at the outside as my mobile always tend to get knocked, scratched, exposed to water etc (one reason I don't like having an expensive mobile) and anyhow it can't support Wimax never mind 3G.

My reluctance to rush to get a widescreen plasma tv is largely because program support on FTA is still limited and because standards are still settling down and prices still plunging for high end units (as another thread shows only too well) so one is also in danger of buying an expensive white elephant. And finally and most importantly I fear a 42" or 46 " widescreen Plasma will suddenly leave me completely unhappy with my Tivo. So I then have to get a Windows MCE server for another £400 or £500 on top.

I think I prefer to wait till a PC version of Tivo that can cope with HD is out and then have a look at its merits and costs vs Windows MCE (the former having a monthly sub but perhaps only £5 per month which I could tolerate it if it was obviously better).

Also the fact is I don't really watch more than a couple of hours tv in earnest most days (sometimes it sits on in the background on a live news channel or something as I don't have to pay attention like I would to something live and recorded) and spend far, far more time doing things on this PC (but not watching moving video).

Consumers are not always logical. I hang on to the 2002 Toyota MR2 Roadster as I couldn't bear to drive a family saloon and because it is cheap to insure and service (little more than a family car) unlike a TVR. But it has depreciated by aorund £8,000 on what I bought it for in the 5 years I have had it. My excuse for not getting rid of it is that depreciation is now a fair bit slower, although I suppose it will only be worth £2,000 when it is 10 years old so that means abother £5,500 to lose in the next 5 years.

Self evidently I should have flogged the MR2 for £12,500 when I stopped doing high paid work and replaced it with an ultra reliable 10 year old MX5 for £2,000 and instead splashed out on a widescreen 36" CRT for £1,000 or so. Even though it would now be time for that CRT to be replaced the cost of doing so plus the CRT would be a great deal less than my car depreciation.

The thing is that I see a widescreen Panasonic LCD regularly over at my sister's (although admittedly I have not persuaded her she should upgrade from a base Sky box with 6 Mixes at £21 to a Sky HD box with 6 Mixes for £31 per month but one off £300 upgrade cost) and when I get home I don't feel I'm missing anything much. I know if I had a black and white tv I would feel I was missing colour tv all the time. When I watched an old black and white tv at university due to poverty in the early 80s I hated it and always craved it being colour. But the fact is it was free and the much cheaper black and white licence also forced that choice. But the difference between an HDTV and a good quality 4:3 29" set is much, much smaller. To a large extent the difference is within the ability of the brain's sight processing cortex to compensate either way as after all the whole tv experience (even HD) is 2D yet the brain manages to con itself that it is seeing a 3D image. Whereas the brain's visual cortex could not manage to translate a black and white picture in to a colour picture.........


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> My reluctance to rush to get a widescreen plasma tv is largely because program support on FTA is still limited


Eh? I'm struggling to think of the last time I saw anything on one of the FTA channels that wasn't 16:9.



> But the difference between an HDTV and a good quality 4:3 29" set is much, much smaller. To a large extent the difference is within the ability of the brain's sight processing cortex to compensate either way as after all the whole tv experience (even HD) is 2D yet the brain manages to con itself that it is seeing a 3D image. Whereas the brain's visual cortex could not manage to translate a black and white picture in to a colour picture.........


The difference is huge, but you carry on persuading yourself otherwise if you like!

When I had a B&W TV I found my brain did compensate and make the grass green and sky blue; or at the very least I rapidly ceased to notice there was no colour.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Eh? I'm struggling to think of the last time I saw anything on one of the FTA channels that wasn't 16:9.


The point of going widescreen now would be to a get an HDTV Plasma widescreen set. And I would only do that when there is sufficient FTA HDTV content to justify that move.

Once one has moved for that reason then SDTV and the recording encoded and then unencoded to watch Tivo S1's days are clearly numbered from what I have seen of the experience of others on here who have been exposed to the lure of HDTV broadcasts (even though only in 720p).



> When I had a B&W TV I found my brain did compensate and make the grass green and sky blue; or at the very least I rapidly ceased to notice there was no colour.


Whenever I watch a black and white program I am constantly irritated by it being in black and white no matter how good the plot is. I suspect most people are the same as these days old black and white films are hardly ever shown on the five main terrestrial tv channels.

Also if what you say is true regarding your black and white viewing and soon not noticing it was in black and white then I can't see why you needed to ditch your perfectly good CRT widescreen for your current flat screen unit. But of an own goal there I fear in terms of the consistency of your logic.

The only thing that may push me to go HDTV sooner rather than later is that if watch digital channels on a Sky box with the sides cropped to fit fully on a 4:3 screen some of the digital broadcasters are no longer protecting the 4:3 are of digital broadcasts for crucial on screen information like captions etc and this is beginning to become annoying.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I think they are increasingly using a 14:9 safe zone as most 16:9 programming is broadcast 14:9 on analogue and the number of people running a digital box into a 4:3 TV must be small and diminishing. Mor importantly virtually every programme is now designed, and the pucture framed, to be watched on a 16:9 set so by watching in 4:3 you really are seeing a diminished version of what the makers intended - not vey important for Deal or No Deal, but quite significant for much drama, documentary and sport material

The fact your brain lets you watch stuff of a low quality and tune it out does not make striving for higher quality irrelevant or illogical. I much prefer a decent hi-fi to my car stereo, but can listen to music on either.


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

To the OP...

Thanks for the info on EyeTV. I have a Mac Mini as a media centre, currently connected to my old 42" Samsung Plazma. Unfortunately, being someone who lives in the '3rd World' I can't get FreeView (OTA Digital) and therefore I am stuck with Sky at this moment in time. I have a USB Miglia which I use for traveling occasionally. Might do the download anyway just to keep things up to date.

iPhones... Hmm so close and yet so far. See if they'd got 3G and made them a little more robust (obviously made for City Types) then I might, just might have been swayed. But no 3G?! come on... and the price/contract is just too silly. I plumbed for an MDA Vario II on Web-n-Walk suits me!


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## davisa (Feb 19, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> I also apologise for keeping the thread off-topic but...
> I played with one in the shop and found typing a text message to be rather difficult.
> As I remember it, I couldn't hit the right keys (which seemed close together) on the on-screen keyboard, and I have rather delicate fingers for a man.
> 
> How are you finding typing?


I've found the keyboard amazingly good. I can type far faster than I could on either my Sony Ericsson M600i or my O2Exec. The trick is not to look too closely at what you are typing and to let the iPhone do its auto-correction, which is brilliant. I especially like the way it learns your commonly used words by analysing your emails, diary, sms, contacts etc. Also, if you take a look at the Web Browser, the implementation of web forms is especially well thought out - things like the 'fruit machine' spinner for pull-down menu selections really shows the level of thought that has been put in to usability.

My experience of 3G has been that of major disappointment. Web browsing on my Sony Ericsson M600i (using Opera mini) and on my O2Exec (using IE) were both _slower_ than Safari on the iPhone over Edge. I know, I timed them. Of course, WiFi is a massive leap in speed and works well on the iPhone - without sucking every last vestige of battery as the O2Exec was prone to do. That isn't to say 3G wouldn't be welcome, just that GPRS/Edge/WiFi is a surprisingly usable solution in my experience. Certainly there is more to web browsing/email etc than just data bandwidth.

I can assure you all that I didn't buy the iPhone to 'show off'. That seems a strange reason to me. The iPhone just felt right, and whilst not perfect (by any means) it is the first phone I have owned for years where you really get the feeling the designers actually use the product. Just like TiVo, the small things really make the product a delight to use 

My enthusiasm knows no bounds when I find a product that really works for me. TiVo was one of those and so is the iPhone.


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## Anndra (Oct 12, 2004)

scgf said:


> I am surprised that my post has been viewed 105 times but nobody has anything at all to say about it.
> 
> I assume that you all think EyeTV is not a possible alternative to the TiVo. I am in a minority of one!


'Pologies, most of us Mac users had a little discussion about this in the 'other place', a few days ago. I'm upgrading my current EyeTV setup by ordering a second tuner from the Apple Store. But the post is soooo sloooow!


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

davisa said:


> Also, if you take a look at the Web Browser, the implementation of web forms is especially well thought out - things like the 'fruit machine' spinner for pull-down menu selections really shows the level of thought that has been put in to usability.
> 
> TiVo was one of those and so is the iPhone.


I bought an iPod touch in the States & agree with the above. The measure of an IT product is the quality of the user interface and for all these products this is just the best. For the touch I only found the spinner when I first entered a date on iCal - wow what a great function. I have recently paid for the apps upgrade and although the Maps function cannot find its location just the way the web clips app works is brilliantly implemented.

Coming back to eye TV, I have just bought an Eye DTT for use with a macbook and a couple of things bother me. Firstly the tuner loses channel information even when you close up nevermind sleep or shutdown. So you have to rerun the setup assistant all the time. second the macbook will only wake up to record a scheduled recording if it is open, so you have to leave the macbook open with the screen on. Lastly the macbook has to be open for the display to work on an external LCD TV and the quality is not that good and there are sound sync issues as DVI is video only and audio is via a seperate headphone jack. Shame really especially as iTunes will be doing movie rentals for HD movies.


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## Anndra (Oct 12, 2004)

The EyeTV issues you mention _I believe _have been addressed in version 3. I don't get the sync issues you mention, I use a Mini and a DVI to VGA adapter and seperate audio too, so that may be your telly I'm afraid. The quality on mine is not quite as good as my T.V. proper, but it's pretty close.

*EDIT*
Using a MacBook with the lid closed: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86286


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## stevencarpenter (Sep 4, 2003)

davisa said:


> I'm a long time eyetv user who's recently upgraded to version 3 (from the US site as its £10 more in the UK!)
> 
> While the new version is a vast improvement on the last, I still find it significantly more primative than TiVo. The new smart lists are good, but not a patch on TiVo season passes. Also the program guide is still badly laid out - so much so that I use tivoweb to search and then set stuff on eyetv.
> 
> ...


Thought I'd give you an update on my view of Eye TV 3 so far...

Been using EyeTV on an iMac G5 I have set up as a TV in my bedroom for a while now (a year at least). As an experiment, but also as the realisation after having a TiVo, that multimedia on a computer is the way to go which saves some of the upgrade cycle issue as this is mostly then just software.

I still have my original TiVo in the sitting room along with an Apple TV and a Mac Mini (as a home server). This is along with both a Mac Cube and a Powerbook too.
However, despite this, experience with a Virgin V+ box, my impending change to Sky HD (as well as using Sky+), nothing has EVER come close to the TiVo even with all this Mac stuff in my house. Its just designed so perfectly and I really want a TiVo HD released for the UK market. 

My Mac on a TV experiment is getting closer to a multi media experience I think is possible, now running Leopard with included Front Row (without hacking Tiger), the release of Airfoil 3 and streaming media to an Airport Express in sync with Video on the iMac screen and the improvements to EyeTV 3 are now getting there.

I'm still struggling for a decent media remote though, may settle on the iTouch when the SDK is out, when Salling Clicker software is updated as looks likely.

The idea of all media in one place and sharable over a home LAN on every device is still complicated as no SDK exists to get into Apples Front Row (media software) which is a major issue as Eye TV is an application and not integrated, the GUI for 3.0 is better but setting programs still requires a mouse and keyboard.

The sharing of content is excellent in EyeTV 2.5 and streaming in 3.0 but the in ability to get content to my Apple TV for instance is frustrating as a complete solution. I hope Apple and Elgato can figure that out one day.

Regardless of the Apple gear, TiVo are still a long way out in front and should get into the UK HD market pronto...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

stevencarpenter said:


> Regardless of the Apple gear, TiVo are still a long way out in front and should get into the UK HD market pronto...


Hopefully they will do this in the next year or so via their planned worldwide launch of Tivo software in to many markets as a PC based offering in conjunction with Nero.

The only concern is whether people will be willing to pay for the Tivo monthly EPG for PC when Microsoft Windows MCE's EPG is free. On the other hand stuff I have read around the web suggests that when Microsoft have enough users of their free EPG they plan to start charging some kind of monthly or annual subscription for it. If nothing else this would actually be helpful for Tivo, even if bad for both TCM and iankb (with the evidence being that both can perfectly well afford to pay a sub for MCE's EPG or hopefully this may instead cause them to see the light and bin MCE favour of Tivo's new PC PVR offering).


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> On the other hand stuff I have read around the web suggests that when Microsoft have enough users of their free EPG they plan to start charging some kind of monthly or annual subscription for it.


With an installed base in the tens of millions now, I'd say that moving to a charging system would be impossible, in PR terms if nothing else. Where do you hear these rumours; is there a website where paranoid anti-corporate anti-establishment types hang out? Silly question, there are thousands!


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

TCM2007 said:


> Where do you hear these rumours ...


Probably, in his own mind. Like all of the other inaccurate 'facts' and that he makes up to support a conflicting position; and often attributes randomly to other members of this forum. 

Of course, to be fair, you can always find a post to support any view you wish to state, but people should really add an attribution to support this type of comment, or simply state that it is their own view. The views of the average internet troller are usually 100% opposite in accuracy to those of reputable journalists, who have inside contacts at Microsoft, et al. And would I trust any information provided about Microsoft that started at the marketing department of Apple, Sky, etc, or started on a Linux newsgroup.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/evaluation/privacy/epg_tos.mspx



> Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004 Electronic Programming Guide Terms of Service Version 2.0
> Updated: October 29, 2003
> 
> The Microsoft software product identified above, which includes computer software and may include associated media, printed materials, "online" or electronic documentation, and Internet-based services (the "Product") provides access to an electronic programming guide service (the "EPG"). *The EPG displays customized television listings and other related data through use of the Product.*
> ...


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Pete77 said:


> www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/evaluation/privacy/epg_tos.mspx


That's scraping the barrel, Pete. 

Since when has any legal contract indicated an intention?

While I can't be bothered to read small-print, I expect the TiVo's terms and conditions allow them to discontinue the EPG service, or increase the monthly charge to some totally-ridiculous and unacceptable level.

There is a massive difference between terms and conditions, and what they would consider to be commercially viable.

Potentially-damaging clauses such as that are usually added by lawyers to ensure that therir hands aren't tied if they found it necessary to increase their charges to stay solvent. Somehow, I don't think that Microsoft are that close to going belly-up at the moment.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

iankb said:


> Since when has any legal contract indicated an intention?


Every single time I receive a variation notice in terms and conditions from my bank or credit card company it is because they actually intend to actually change the charges and other features of the service and not because they are merely doing it for fun.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

Pete77 said:


> Every single time I receive a variation notice in terms and conditions from my bank or credit card company it is because they actually intend to actually change the charges and other features of the service and not because they are merely doing it for fun.


Since Microsoft last changed those terms in 2003 (and maybe not to add the possibility of charging), I somehow doubt that was their intention.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Every single time I receive a variation notice in terms and conditions from my bank or credit card company it is because they actually intend to actually change the charges and other features of the service and not because they are merely doing it for fun.


And the correlation between 
banks (currently running out of money because they're scared to lend to each other) and 
Microsoft (currently have so much money they could carpet the Earth in dollar bills) is..?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ericd121 said:


> And the correlation between banks (currently running out of money because they're scared to lend to each other) and
> Microsoft (currently have so much money they could carpet the Earth in dollar bills) is..?


They would both like to have far more dollar bills than they do now if they can find a legal way to do so.


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## stevencarpenter (Sep 4, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> Hopefully they will do this in the next year or so via their planned worldwide launch of Tivo software in to many markets as a PC based offering in conjunction with Nero.


Well that's great for PC users but it does kind of miss the point IMHO, A TiVo scores as it is almost zero set-up and intuitive via a remote, if I have to but a PC, then find a non intuitive remote then add tuner card, find out how to do IR blasting from a PC if you want to use Sky or Cable, then install this all in my sitting room, it is exactly as I have now but with a Mac running EyeTV (which I think is what the discussion started out as).

The Eye TV solution has exactly the same issues as i already could have with windows media centre, Nero (which are both PC only) and EyeTV (which I run).

What we really want is a new HD TiVo that is plug and go, much like the current TiVo.

Unfortunately having already chosen Eye TV (which uses tvtv EPG data) I am aware of the benefits of the Nero/TiVo partnership will bring, the problem is I really want a new TiVo for HD in the UK and I realise we are highly unlikely to ever get it, which saddens me as my current TiVo gets used every day...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

stevencarpenter said:


> if I have to buy a PC, then find a non intuitive remote then add tuner card, find out how to do IR blasting from a PC if you want to use Sky or Cable, then install this all in my sitting room, it is exactly as I have now but with a Mac running EyeTV (which I think is what the discussion started out as)...


Yes but the point is that a Nero deal means almost no major capital risk taken by Tivo itself (unlike having its own Tivo UK marketing operation), so it is far easier for them to release the product worldwide.

Also with IPTV developing etc a device that is PC based is more flexible across multi person households than a conventional by the tv box unit. Presumably one could use an X-box or whatever to deliver the output from the Tivo server at the individual tv display units.

And like it or not with all the channels gradually making their last week's programs available for download and this being EASY for MR AND MRS JO AVERAGE the market for very sophisticated PVRs that capture the programs at the time they are broadcast is sadly likely to decline.

Obviously the big advantage of a PVR that records off air is that one is not limited by the download it in 7 days and watch it in 28 days rule and can capture a whole series, even if you go on holiday for a month. But how many MR AND MRS JO AVERAGES are this sophisticated.

Of course many people would like to be able to download any program or film ever broadcast or shown in the cinema after the event for all time for free but the rights issues are going to see to it that in time we wil have to pay to do this and that legal action will ensue against those who make old programs available for downloading by others across the web.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Having upgraded to eyeTV v3 and while good for a PC/MAC TV app, 
(wishlists and setting recordings from the web) 
I wouldn't put it in the same league as MCE / Mediaportal /mythTV or tivo.

You can't use it just with a remote - most functions need a mouse & keyboard
The only part of the interface which is "ten foot viewable" is the channel changing and live buffer. This makes it a dead duck for the living room.

TBH I can't see what the fuss is about (unless its just the usual Mac fanboy^H^H^H enthusiasm.   )



ColinYounger said:


> Since I was lucky at Christmas and managed to get a Wii, I'm more tempted to look at the media software floating around for that...


Best I could setup with the wii is viewing stuff over the internet channel with orb.com.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

I like my Macbook + EyeTV 3 + Elgato Diversity stick as a set-up as a solution for watching DTT on the move. It does what it says on the tin - and because the hardware is the same as the Hauppauge Nova-T DT I can Bootcamp into Windows Media Center as well with no problems. I bought the Elgato stick during the window of the free upgrade from EyeTV 2 to 3 - so only paid around &#163;80 for the hardware and software. The Hauppauge drivers for Windows are a free download. I was pretty sceptical about the two tiny aerials that are supplied working at all - but in Diversity mode they give me 100&#37; signal quality on a 50% signal strength - which in a hotel room is pretty good. I've also got a cheap powered flat plate antenna that seems to work pretty well split into dual-tuner mode in lower signal strength areas.

I've just returned from Sweden, and I was able to get all the Swedish FTA channels (not that many as they have an ITVDigital like pay-TV platform on DVB-T called Boxer) but this included SVT-HD which was 20Mbs 720/50p H264 and looked pretty cracking. (Windows Media Center doesn't like H264 but the EyeTV coped fine) It also copes, unusually for a computer, with DVB subtitles and Ceefax-style DVB World Systems Teletext (which is widely used on DVB-T outside of the UK rather than MHEG)

The EyeTV does some pretty neat things and was as good a computer based TV solution as I've seen so far - though Media Center has a better 10 foot UI. If you don't run the tuner in Diversity but in Dual Tuner mode you can PIP two channels, and it also allows automatic conversion of recordings to iPod format, with the conversions appearing in the TV Shows bit of iTunes.

It isn't Tivo - it is a different kind of device - but it is pretty well thought out. It copes quite well with the DVB-T EPG (though it doesn't look to be Freeview Playback savvy with live updating of the EPG and scheduled recordings) It has some very simple and intuitive editing software, allowing you to tidy up the ins and outs, and edit out ads prior to conversion as well if you wish.

(BTW whilst SVT-HD works with the current Elgato DVB-T hardware - it is unlikely to work with the future UK "Freeview HD" service, as this is likely to be DVB-T2)


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

Anndra said:


> The EyeTV issues you mention _I believe _have been addressed in version 3.


As this thread has been revived I thought I would air my latest experience with EyeTV.
I have now upgraded to version 3 & some of my issues have been addressed. As a recording device though I need it to operate with the TV display monitor off and with my Macbook in sleep mode with the lid closed. Even though I have been able to wake up the macbook with the lid closed, when I turn off the TV display monitor and check it later for a scheduled recording, it has not recorded. So I presume when the TV display monitor is turned off the macbook has gone to sleep and not woken to make the recording even though the option has been ticked in preferences.
So as far as I am concerned you have to leave either the lid open, or the TV display monitor on, for a scheduled recording to be made & this in itself means I will not be using it much at all.


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## Anndra (Oct 12, 2004)

Another option is to set it to 'Never Sleep' (my Mini does this as it is an answerphone and controls the lights etc. in my flat). Not very green, but as our Macs are based on laptop components, not too bad. You could also have it doing something useful such as [email protected]


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## B33K34 (Feb 9, 2003)

I've just started using v3 of EyeTV on a new iMac. As far as i can work out there is no support for Freeview Playback - ie, you just set timed recordings from the EPG rather than setting a PROGRAMME recording that will adjust if the programme moves. Repeat recordings are just that - 7pm each Monday say - rather than record programme x whenever it is on. Series link doesn't appear to be supported. 

I need to experiment with smart recordings but it seems like a basic DVR. A long way behind Tivo and a long way behind the Nebula DigiTV software which I was using with a PC last year.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

B33K34 said:


> I've just started using v3 of EyeTV on a new iMac. As far as i can work out there is no support for Freeview Playback - ie, you just set timed recordings from the EPG rather than setting a PROGRAMME recording that will adjust if the programme moves.


No - it seems to still treat the DVB-T EPG as if it were an other source of listings downloads - not a dynamic guide.



> Repeat recordings are just that - 7pm each Monday say - rather than record programme x whenever it is on. Series link doesn't appear to be supported.
> 
> I need to experiment with smart recordings but it seems like a basic DVR. A long way behind Tivo and a long way behind the Nebula DigiTV software which I was using with a PC last year.


Yep - the "Smart" bit seems to be in searching the listings, not the metadata?

Also - it doesn't seem to use the new bits of Freeview playback - such as intelligent use of +1 channels to cope with clashes etc.

I guess this is understandable as Freeview Playback is a specific UK implementation - probably a bit more advanced than many other countries use of DVB-T, and relatively recent. Think the first software solutions that will support it are likely to be those developed and updated daily by enthusiasts?

Problem with Nebula is that they are looking a bit dodgy these days aren't they? ISTR that they've wound up one bit of the company?


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## B33K34 (Feb 9, 2003)

Sneals2000 said:


> .
> 
> I guess this is understandable as Freeview Playback is a specific UK implementation - probably a bit more advanced than many other countries use of DVB-T, and relatively recent.
> Think the first software solutions that will support it are likely to be those developed and updated daily by enthusiasts?
> Problem with Nebula is that they are looking a bit dodgy these days aren't they? ISTR that they've wound up one bit of the company?


------------

True, but Nebula had implemented the early tests of it a year ago IIRC

I've not been paying attention but i was surprised they survived as long as they did. The PC tv card market was becoming commoditised with dirt cheap USB sticks available and with Microsoft making MCE part of standard windows distributions and their own software not as well integrated there wasn't much of an opportunity there either.


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## gazter (Aug 1, 2001)

B33K34 said:


> ------------
> 
> True, but Nebula had implemented the early tests of it a year ago IIRC
> 
> I've not been paying attention but i was surprised they survived as long as they did. The PC tv card market was becoming commoditised with dirt cheap USB sticks available and with Microsoft making MCE part of standard windows distributions and their own software not as well integrated there wasn't much of an opportunity there either.


But, its all kind of academic and redundant, for those of us with skyhd. Until sky give third party access to the Cam then we have no prospect of a pvr that rivals Tivo. Sky will not want to lose the captive market just yet, and would require government intervention to do so.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Sky HD has been possible for a few months: DVBviewer 3.53 DragonCam TTs3200 

DVBViewer isn't a PVR though, I'll grant you


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

gazter said:


> But, its all kind of academic and redundant, for those of us with skyhd. Until sky give third party access to the Cam then we have no prospect of a pvr that rivals Tivo. Sky will not want to lose the captive market just yet, and would require government intervention to do so.


You are right if you are looking for officially supported solutions - though the fact that it appears that the former sister of Sky - DirecTV - in the US is close to launching a USB2 based dual tuner and integrated CAM solution for their platform is hopeful.

HOWEVER - Sky's CAM has been reverse engineered, meaning that you can use a non Sky receiver for SD and HD if you have a valid Sky subscription card. Obviously you still need a SkyHD box to get this subscription - but once you have subscribed you can use other receiver solutions other than the Sky HD box.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

B33K34 said:


> ------------
> 
> True, but Nebula had implemented the early tests of it a year ago IIRC
> 
> I've not been paying attention but i was surprised they survived as long as they did. The PC tv card market was becoming commoditised with dirt cheap USB sticks available and with Microsoft making MCE part of standard windows distributions and their own software not as well integrated there wasn't much of an opportunity there either.


I guess if they can reinvent themselves as a decent PVR software provider for use with a wide variety of DVB-T, -S and -C tuners, then they might have a new future. Existing as a DVB-T hardware manufacturer is a non-starter now I imagine.

Has anyone managed a decent MHEG5 software solution yet for DVB-T interfaces? Press Red functionality would be the icing on the cake of any PC solution.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

It's due in the next release of Media Center I believe.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> It's due in the next release of Media Center I believe.


Yep - I filled in the Beta tester application form a while back but haven't heard anything.

I believe that Microsoft have the following on their European Media Center to do list :

DVB-S/S2 and DVB-C compatibility 
CAM support for all DVB platforms (either through softcam + cardreader or CI slot)
H264 video
DVB Subtitles
DVB Audio Description (i.e. stream mixing)
MHEG 5 Digital Text and poss MHP 
DVB "CEEFAX-style" Teletext
EPG population from DVB broadcasts not internet download - AND hopefully dynamic updating.

(And lets hope they finally update the XBox 360 Media Center Extender client so it understands that 50Hz video should be displayed at 50Hz not 60Hz when connected to an HD TV)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Sneals2000 said:


> I believe that Microsoft have the following on their European Media Center to do list :
> 
> CAM support for all DVB platforms (either through softcam + cardreader or CI slot)


What about a Dragon CAM for Sky Yellow House cards? I bet they will still have to go back in the Sky box to get updated in terms of validity or changes in subscribed channels?


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> What about a Dragon CAM for Sky Yellow House cards? I bet they will still have to go back in the Sky box to get updated in terms of validity or changes in subscribed channels?


Dragon CAMs fit into CI slots don't they?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Sneals2000 said:


> Dragon CAMs fit into CI slots don't they?


Yes but my question was about whether the Sky Yellow House card still had to return to a Sky box NDS card slot from time to time to have its subscription package and validity information update?

If so then Windows MCE is still not a complete foolproof Sky pay channel viewing and recording solution.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Yes but my question was about whether the Sky Yellow House card still had to return to a Sky box NDS card slot from time to time to have its subscription package and validity information update?
> 
> If so then Windows MCE is still not a complete foolproof Sky pay channel viewing and recording solution.


I'm not sure. ISTR that there is at least one reverse-engineered Videoguard solution that doesn't require the card to be returned to the receiver - though I'm not clear if this is a softcam or hardware CAM solution.

I think the driving force for DVB-S and CAM support in MCE is the other European pay-tv platforms which are based on open-CI CAM support - though more and more are going the Sky route of proprietary sealed box solutions (as most of the open CI platforms were hacked wide open for illegal viewing without subscription)


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## sculptor (Jan 7, 2003)

An old thread I know, but as users are now looking at TiVo alternatives I thought I'd share how I use Eyetv on the mac alongside my TiVo S1.

I have the Eyetv 250 plus - this has the DVB tv tuner and also a hardware mpeg encoder built in which relieves the processor strain on the mac.

The unit also has analog input so you can connect DVD players, VCRs and the output from your TiVo series 1.

This allows you to record the TiVo output in real time.

The eyetv has a program planner which you can populate free from the Terrestrial DVB signal. The package originally came with a year subscription to 'TVTV' online listings but I didn't bother to renew this when I discovered the free DVB listings.

You can setup 'smart guides' in eyetv for individual programmes and these will show you all upcoming shows over the next week. But you have to manually schedule each recording. 

There's no wishlists and you can't control a sky box with it - only feed in its analog output to record in real time. You can't schedule timer recordings from the line in input only the DVB tuner.

You can install a script to mark commercials. This makes it faster when you're editing the shows to remove the ad breaks.
You can also mark clips within a recording and save them as additional recordings.

I like to archive material to DVD so this eyetv mac setup lets me:
Record shows from DVB direct to a hard disk in mpeg format.
Manually Record Tivo shows to the hard disk via the line in.

This set up is handy for dealing with program clashes due to Tivo's single tuner.

Once the shows are recorded on the hard drive they can be converted to a smaller size/other formats using the free Handbrake app.

Shows can then be archived to DVD and stored in folders on an external hard drive.
That hard drive can then be connected via usb to a TV, Apple TV or WDTV unit to watch shows.

You can jailbreak an apple tv (specifically the first generation one) to install Nito tv, Boxee and XBMC media centres. These let you browse your usb hard drive.

The WDTV unit can also be used to play your hard drive content on non usb eqipped TVs or older CRT TVs which don't have HDMI or component input. The apple tv doesn't output to composite (yellow, red and white plug). The interface isn't very exciting on the WDTV though.


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