# Shutting off Tivo service feels so good



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

I know this won't be a popular post, but I have to share that I am so relieved to finally make that call to Tivo and have them shut off my Tivo service after so much misery.

My Roamio experience is summed up in my avatar and plagued with countless missed recordings, Roamio hardware swaps, cable card swaps, tuning adapter swaps, attenuators, tech support calls, and truck rolls.

What am I doing next? Doesn't matter. What I won't be doing is calling Tivo, calling Time Warner, calling Tivo again, replacing hardware, watching techs trying to pair cable cards over the speakerphone ("now was that a 7 or a 4 after the 3?"), describing my hookup-- put the TA in line, no use a splitter above the TA, trying to explain to Time Warner that I need a certain TA firmware release, be told my signal is too good for Tivo, be told my signal is too poor for Tivo, have Roamio then show +18db with no coax connected, or carry $400 on my credit card so Tivo will ship me a new Roamio.

Correction-- what I will be doing now is planning a fitting end to my Roamio Pro. I'm thinking: bonfire, Darth Vader style.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

If you're just going to burn it I'll take it. How much you want to ship it to NV?


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## spaldingclan (Aug 22, 2012)

dtivouser said:


> I know this won't be a popular post, but I have to share that I am so relieved to finally make that call to Tivo and have them shut off my Tivo service after so much misery.
> 
> My Roamio experience is summed up in my avatar and plagued with countless missed recordings, Roamio hardware swaps, cable card swaps, tuning adapter swaps, attenuators, tech support calls, and truck rolls.
> 
> ...


you ever try just hooking an antenna to it?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

spaldingclan said:


> you ever try just hooking an antenna to it?


To a Roamio Pro?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> If you're just going to burn it I'll take it. How much you want to ship it to NV?


I'll give him shipping costs plus an extra $10 for it.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

spaldingclan said:


> you ever try just hooking an antenna to it?


How's that working for you?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

You ever tried hooking it up to a satellite dish?


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

So you let TW win. That is the sad part. But, you made your decision, do what you want, and I'll enjoy my tivo in peace.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

dtivouser said:


> What am I doing next? Doesn't matter.


I am curious about this though. Are you going back to a crappy TWC DVR? I could never do that myself. Going without a DVR? I could never do that either. Going with satellite? That's not a horrible option I guess. Cutting the cord and going OTA only? Then a Roamio is the best option for an OTA DVR.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Then a Roamio is the best option for an OTA DVR.


Not the one he has.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> I am curious about this though. Are you going back to a crappy TWC DVR? I could never do that myself. Going without a DVR? I could never do that either. Going with satellite? That's not a horrible option I guess. Cutting the cord and going OTA only? Then a Roamio is the best option for an OTA DVR.


I'm curious too. If the OP is going with TWC, he is in for a world of pain.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> Not the one he has.


If he can resist the urge to flambé the Pro, maybe he can sell it and buy an OTA.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Sorry to see you go.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I'm curious what he's doing next too.. I admittedly complain a lot about various issues, but Tivos are by far the "least bad", and the gap between them and others is huge.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

I actually don't know what's next. Right now I am "cordless" and now have $120/mo to spend on things streaming services like Hulu Plus, Vudu, Apple, Amazon, etc. My live TV options are DirecTV, Dish, U-Verse, or TWC. (there is no OTA reception here) TWC has 2-tuner DVR's from the 1970's but-- at least I can record two things at once instead of zero with Tivo. U-Verse has a fairly modern 4-tuner iptv DVR which seems ok though their service is more expensive than TWC. I don't know anything about Dish, and DirecTV seems to have the best equipment if you don't mind a 2-year commitment.

TWC might just win because of TWC TV-- if I buy the most basic service from them, even if I don't actually hook it up, I can get any channel I want on any computer, tablet, or phone, including some basic on-demand TV effectively replacing the role of a DVR. Sort of.

But I'm done with the conference calls between techs at Tivo and TWC. I'm done with cable cards and tuning adapters. Yay.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

dtivouser said:


> TWC might just win because of TWC TV-- if I buy the most basic service from them, even if I don't actually hook it up, I can get any channel I want on any computer, tablet, or phone, including some basic on-demand TV effectively replacing the role of a DVR. Sort of.


The TWC TV app is also available on the Roku and Samsung Smart TVs. It's actually pretty good. You can get on-demand content and live TV channels streamed on it. I don't think they let you stream local broadcast channels though. Maybe you could buy an old Series 3 and just use it with TWC for basic cable/local channels.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

I think that varies by geography; I have the Charger game showing on TWC TV right now on the local CBS channel.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

dtivouser said:


> I think that varies by geography; I have the Charger game showing on TWC TV right now on the local CBS channel.


Huh, interesting.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

But the Chargers are losing, so you know: burn in hell, TWC!!


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

dtivouser said:


> I actually don't know what's next. Right now I am "cordless" and now have $120/mo to spend on things streaming services like Hulu Plus, Vudu, Apple, Amazon, etc. My live TV options are DirecTV, Dish, U-Verse, or TWC. (there is no OTA reception here) TWC has 2-tuner DVR's from the 1970's but-- at least I can record two things at once instead of zero with Tivo. U-Verse has a fairly modern 4-tuner iptv DVR which seems ok though their service is more expensive than TWC. I don't know anything about Dish, and DirecTV seems to have the best equipment if you don't mind a 2-year commitment.
> 
> TWC might just win because of TWC TV-- if I buy the most basic service from them, even if I don't actually hook it up, I can get any channel I want on any computer, tablet, or phone, including some basic on-demand TV effectively replacing the role of a DVR. Sort of.
> 
> But I'm done with the conference calls between techs at Tivo and TWC. I'm done with cable cards and tuning adapters. Yay.


I can tell you that the cable-card based TWC DVRs will probably have similar tuning issues you experienced with your Roamio. I've just helped my parents and a co-worker move away from TWC (and their DVRs) to DirecTV. I have Dish, and I am happy with the product, if not the general cost of pay TV.

My recommendation is, if you're set on getting away from Tivo but still want pay tv, go with one of the Satellite services. DirecTV has the Genie, which is a 5 tuner whole-home DVR, and Dish has the Hopper which is a 3-6 tuner DVR, depending on how you use it. You can also add 2 additional tuners to the Hopper with a Super Joey if you need them.

Both DirecTV and Dish have on-demand apps, although DirecTV's requires a separate box called the GenieGo to watch recorded content outside of your home network, while Dish's Hopper includes slingbox functionality built in which lets you placeshift. I strongly suggest exploring both of the satellite options. Both are pretty good, so I would focus on what channels are important to you to help you decide. Depending on what channels you want and what equipment you need, one could be a better deal that the other or vice versa.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

dtivouser said:


> ....... TWC might just win because of TWC TV-- if I buy the most basic service from them, even if I don't actually hook it up, I can get any channel I want on any computer, tablet, or phone, including some basic on-demand TV effectively replacing the role of a DVR. Sort of. .......


Not true. You have to have their Standard service or higher to get the TWC-TV app. Their basic service doesn't qualify. Believe me I've checked into it.

https://video2.timewarnercable.com/login/terms



dtivouser said:


> I think that varies by geography; I have the Charger game showing on TWC TV right now on the local CBS channel.


Are you sure that wasn't the NFL Network broadcast of the CBS game? CBS produces it now and they rebroadcast on NFL Network simultaneously. I think this was the last week for it though and it's moving exclusively to NFL Network. NFL Network is in the app. Usually the local networks aren't.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

HarperVision said:


> Not true. You have to have their Standard service or higher to get the TWC-TV app. Their basic service doesn't qualify. Believe me I've checked into it.
> 
> https://video2.timewarnercable.com/login/terms
> 
> Are you sure that wasn't the NFL Network broadcast of the CBS game? CBS produces it now and they rebroadcast on NFL Network simultaneously. I think this was the last week for it though and it's moving exclusively to NFL Network. NFL Network is in the app. Usually the local networks aren't.


this Thursdays was the last one on CBS for Thursdays


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Why is it satisfying to give up in defeat? That is not satisfying to me. That is infuriating. Different standards I guess.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> Why is it satisfying to give up in defeat? That is not satisfying to me. That is infuriating. Different standards I guess.


It's satisfying when the pain (detailed in the first post) finally stops -- I assume the OP went through many moments of infuriation before giving up. Have you no empathy sir?

I would get great satisfaction in smashing my TA if I ever stop needing it -- except for the huge turn-in value it has.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

ajwees41 said:


> this Thursdays was the last one on CBS for Thursdays


I know that, and said that. I was saying that he was most likely mistaken that he was thinking he was watching the CBS local channel version of he game, when in fact it was probably the simulcast of it on NFL Network, produced by CBS, which is a channel on the TWC tv app.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

dtivouser said:


> I actually don't know what's next. Right now I am "cordless" and now have $120/mo to spend on things streaming services like Hulu Plus, Vudu, Apple, Amazon, etc. My live TV options are DirecTV, Dish, U-Verse, or TWC. (there is no OTA reception here) TWC has 2-tuner DVR's from the 1970's but-- at least I can record two things at once instead of zero with Tivo. U-Verse has a fairly modern 4-tuner iptv DVR which seems ok though their service is more expensive than TWC. I don't know anything about Dish, and DirecTV seems to have the best equipment if you don't mind a 2-year commitment.


I'd get Dish or DirecTV over Uverse. Uverse is bad technology and there are a TON of complaints about their picture quality because of it.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> I'd get Dish or DirecTV over U-verse. U-verse is bad technology and there are a TON of complaints about their picture quality because of it.


+1

U-verse is garbage.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

As someone who uses series 3 - 5 various model TiVos for exclusively OTA, I have found all my TiVos to be stable, reliable, and a generally good product and experience packed with several advanced features not found on other 3rd party DVRs, certainly better than those offered by cable making TiVo, while expensive, the best DVR around, excepting the Genie and Hopper.

The key here is that my experience has been exclusively OTA. It sure seems that with the Cable Card fiasco and the Tuning Adapter mess, the MSOs have done a good job of sabotaging TiVo on their systems. Not only does TiVo work beautifully on OTA, but I am unaware of the legacy nor current DirecTV TiVos suffering any of the cable co problems, nor such problems seem to exist when a cable co offers a TiVo box option for its subscribers. Hmm, only problems on MSOs with retail TiVos requiring the Cablelabs standard and designed CC and TA.

Please don't judge TiVo products by the retail box use on a cable company. It really is in the top class with Genie and Hopper. It is afine DVR, and the Mini is a great solution for a whole home experience (if they would allow the Mini to access that last tuner always reserved for the DVR like Hopper does, the Mini would be nearly pefect). In the vast majority of legitimate rants and hate posts aganst the TiVo, it is really the cable company's design to make retail TiVos fail that is the fault. Such legitimate dissatisfaction should be aimed at the cabe co, not TiVo, and if each such poster would complain to the FCC about it, we all might be in a better place today or the near future. My only complaint with TiVo is its pricing model, but as a DVR and along with its great accessories, TiVo is a good product and should not be blamed for what is clearly the cable cos fault.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

tarheelblue32 said:


> +1
> 
> U-verse is garbage.


I suppose that's why the are trying to buy DirecTV.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Series3Sub said:


> As someone who uses series 3 - 5 various model TiVos for exclusively OTA, I have found all my TiVos to be stable, reliable, and a generally good product and experience packed with several advanced features not found on other 3rd party DVRs, certainly better than those offered by cable making TiVo, while expensive, the best DVR around, excepting the Genie and Hopper. The key here is that my experience has been exclusively OTA. It sure seems that with the Cable Card fiasco and the Tuning Adapter mess, the MSOs have done a good job of sabotaging TiVo on their systems. Not only does TiVo work beautifully on OTA, but I am unaware of the legacy nor current DirecTV TiVos suffering any of the cable co problems, nor such problems seem to exist when a cable co offers a TiVo box option for its subscribers. Hmm, only problems on MSOs with retail TiVos requiring the Cablelabs standard and designed CC and TA. Please don't judge TiVo products by the retail box use on a cable company. It really is in the top class with Genie and Hopper. It is afine DVR, and the Mini is a great solution for a whole home experience (if they would allow the Mini to access that last tuner always reserved for the DVR like Hopper does, the Mini would be nearly pefect). In the vast majority of legitimate rants and hate posts aganst the TiVo, it is really the cable company's design to make retail TiVos fail that is the fault. Such legitimate dissatisfaction should be aimed at the cabe co, not TiVo, and if each such poster would complain to the FCC about it, we all might be in a better place today or the near future. My only complaint with TiVo is its pricing model, but as a DVR and along with its great accessories, TiVo is a good product and should not be blamed for what is clearly the cable cos fault.


+1. Very good post!


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Well you gave it the old college try. I can't say I wouldn't have given up.


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## Jasper628 (Dec 8, 2002)

mattack said:


> I'm curious what he's doing next too.. I admittedly complain a lot about various issues, but Tivos are by far the "least bad", and the gap between them and others is huge.


Yes, we'd had out issues over the years too, but you're absolutely correct, Tivo is by far the best invention ever !

We've been Tivo subscribers since about 2001 and cannot fathom life without our two Tivo's. We've found we need two tivo's since many times we want to record more than two things at a time and we also like having one in our excercise room so we can watch TV while we're on the teadmills. Having them all linked together is so helpful when transferring shows back and forth between the two units. We very rarely ever watch live TV anymore and when we do for a half hour or so....we're reminded what a waste of time it is to watch all those useless commercials to get you to buy stuff you don't need in most cases anyway.

That all being said, our past/current frustrations are listed below.

Using the web site (tivo.com) to program is glitchy for us. Not sure why, some days it works great, others, like last Sunday and today again, it's not working correctly. Doesn't show our complete channel line up not matter what I do and is terribly slow moving. This has been an ongoing problem on and off for years....even when I use my work computer while at work, so it's not just my computer.

First HD Tivo we bought 7 or 8 years ago, had terrible pixalation and locked up ever few hours of use. After suffering with that for almost a year, we decided to access the warranty before it ran out. Guess what ? My memory isn't perfect here since that was many years ago, but my recollection is that Tivo would only send us a re-built unit and there was a charge to boot. So let me get this right, you're going to charge me to fix a warranty problem ? Yup...guess so, and I get someone elses problem child that you "fixed" ? Yup, guess so. I did some research and figured it was just a faulty hard drive, so I purchased a pre-formatted larger hard drive from a seller on Ebay (after checking him out) and it's worked flawlessly ever since.

A few years ago we purchased a Tivo Premiere for our bedroom. It worked kinda Ok, but we use a combination of OTA and Cable which suites our purposes perfectly. The OTA reception was generally not good. No matter what we tried, it didn't work very well with the OTA reception. The signal strength using the meter on the Tivo was always 20 or so points below what the HD signal was when hooked up in the same place. We'd get frequent pixilation, cutouts etc.... Our Tivo HD worked perfectly with the OTA set up we had....so something with the tuner of the Premiere unit wasn't as good for us as what was in the HD unit. Further more, the cooling fan in the Premiere started making a terrible racket ever few weeks and could only be remedied by sticking a Q-Tip in to stop or slown down the fan for a split second and then it was quiet again for a few weeks....rinse and repeat ever few weeks. I thought about filing a warranty again....but remembered my previous experience so we just eventually unplugged it and it sits gathering dust in the basement. We replaced it with another brand new sealed in the box Tivo HD from Ebay which has again worked flawlessly for a number of years now.

Anway, we don't know how we'd live without Tivo. Tivo lets us be in control of our lives and watch TV on our terms when we want to, not when the networks schedule things......as it should be !


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

dlfl said:


> It's satisfying when the pain (detailed in the first post) finally stops -- I assume the OP went through many moments of infuriation before giving up. Have you no empathy sir?
> 
> I would get great satisfaction in smashing my TA if I ever stop needing it -- except for the huge turn-in value it has.


No. I have no empathy for someone who finds satisfaction in losing. If I were running a race, I would not be satisfied in finishing the race, if I finished by quitting.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> No. I have no empathy for someone who finds satisfaction in losing. If I were running a race, I would not be satisfied in finishing the race, if I finished by quitting.


You seem to have a real talent for missing the point. I didn't say he was satisfied by losing, nor did he. I simply said there is satisfaction in being rid of constant pain, which was obviously his point from the start. I think most people empathize with his position, given the extreme amount of problems he experienced. You want to imply he's a quitter because he didn't want to keep banging his head against the wall. If you get picked up by a tornado and thrown a mile or two, I assume you will just tell yourself "well, I should have just fought harder".


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

dtivouser said:


> I know this won't be a popular post, but I have to share that I am so relieved to finally make that call to Tivo and have them shut off my Tivo service after so much misery.
> 
> My Roamio experience is summed up in my avatar and plagued with countless missed recordings, Roamio hardware swaps, cable card swaps, tuning adapter swaps, attenuators, tech support calls, and truck rolls.
> 
> ...


I feel your pain my friend but be prepared to get slammed here (more than you already have) for pulling the plug on TiVo. I mean, after all, this IS a TiVo chat board. But, after 13 or so years of being an owner/subscriber, I, too have come very close to doing exactly what you are doing. The V52 error messages alone have had me spitting nails at times. And then there is the still constant freezing up issue when I try and boot up Netflix. That usually entails a hard reboot and we all know how painful a TiVo start up is ("Hello TiVo? 1979 called. They want their boot up time back!"). I never reached your point, though. About 4 years ago, I ditched one of my outdated S2s and gave a TWC DVR a shot. Yikes, what a disappointment! That thing gave new definition to clunky. Granted, that was several years ago and maybe their hardware has improved but, I don't think you're seeing the forest through the trees here. If TiVo is truly as bad as you've written, then all I can say is they are still the best of the worst. 
Here's my 2 cents: Before you have that bonfire, unplug the machine(s) and take a breather from TiVo. And maybe give an alternative or two a try for a few months. And if at that time, you're happy with the results, THEN have that bonfire (although I am guessing by that time you may do something a little more financially rewarding and sell your TiVo device either here or on eBay). Obviously the choice is yours to make but take it from someone who has been exactly where you are now- time is on your side. Take advantage of it.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

dlfl said:


> You seem to have a real talent for missing the point. I didn't say he was satisfied by losing, nor did he. I simply said there is satisfaction in being rid of constant pain, which was obviously his point from the start. I think most people empathize with his position, given the extreme amount of problems he experienced. You want to imply he's a quitter because he didn't want to keep banging his head against the wall. If you get picked up by a tornado and thrown a mile or two, I assume you will just tell yourself "well, I should have just fought harder".


You're playing semantic games. "being rid of constant pain" requires quitting. The pain is the cost of the struggle. Quitting, therefore, is what relieved his "constant pain." Hence, what I said was completely accurate.

If I get picked up by a tornado and thrown a mile or two, I will definitely not be satisfied with that. Which is what I said. Try reading the post you're responding to, to completion, before you respond to it.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

MichaelAinNB said:


> That usually entails a hard reboot and we all know how painful a TiVo start up is ("Hello TiVo? 1979 called. They want their boot up time back!"). I never reached your point, though. About 4 years ago, I ditched one of my outdated S2s and gave a TWC DVR a shot. Yikes, what a disappointment! That thing gave new definition to clunky. Granted, that was several years ago and maybe their hardware has improved but, I don't think you're seeing the forest through the trees here. If TiVo is truly as bad as you've written, then all I can say is they are still the best of the worst.


Compared to Navigator booting up on a SA8300HD, the TivoHD I used to have seemed fast. As far as TWC DVRs go, there is better hardware available, but the software is still horrible. Nothing like Tivo, Genie, or Hopper. No comparison.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> You're playing semantic games. "being rid of constant pain" requires quitting. The pain is the cost of the struggle. Quitting, therefore, is what relieved his "constant pain." Hence, what I said was completely accurate.
> 
> If I get picked up by a tornado and thrown a mile or two, I will definitely not be satisfied with that. Which is what I said. Try reading the post you're responding to, to completion, before you respond to it.


I'll let others decide who's playing semantic games. Try understanding the basic point of posts you're responding to instead of just finding something to criticize. (And I'll do the same. )


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

Question for the masses: If I cancel my subscription on one of my three Premiers, will I still be able to stream content to the canceled Premier from one of my other two active Premiers on my network?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

MichaelAinNB said:


> Question for the masses: If I canel my subscription on one of my three Premiers, will I still be able to stream content to the canceled Premier from one of my other two active Premiers on my network?


No.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

aron11 said:


> Thanks for share


If you're going to put that stupid message everywhere, could you at least fix the grammar?


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

shwru980r said:


> No.


Kinda what I figured. Thanks for the response.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

dtivouser said:


> I know this won't be a popular post, but I have to share that I am so relieved to finally make that call to Tivo and have them shut off my Tivo service after so much misery.


At the risk of eating a little crow, I have to tell you I took a step toward where you're at just a few minutes ago. I canceled one of our three Premier subscriptions (the priciest of the three). The main reason is, I felt TiVo knowingly duped Premier owners into believing the Winter 'Update" would impact us- specifically, we would have access to the Amazon Prime app. Obviously that didn't happen and now we're being told we have to wait another 6-8 months before we see it. My belief is, TiVo knowingly did this with the intent to encourage Premier owners to upgrade to Roamio. I saw that as extremely poor business practice and said as much in another thread on this forum. I received a few responses to my post, all of which basically chastising me for my "harsh" comments in response to a post by a TiVo VP of Design that outlined what we can expect from the latest update (which, for Premier owners is basically nothing). One response to my post said I should be thankful that TiVo is "being kind to Premier owners". That gentleman obviously isn't a business owner or, if he is, he's obviously not a successful business owner. As I mentioned in my response to him, if TiVo wants to stay in business, it's their job "to be kind" to their customers; regardless if they're S3, Premier or Roamio owners. We're all paying customers and deserve to be treated better than what I saw with this recent update. And, wouldn't you know it, in keeping with this current "lack of customer service" theme, the CS Rep I spoke with at TiVo was anything but customer friendly. All he did was ask which device I wanted to cancel, my reason for cancellation and if I was interested in transferring the service to a family member. Not so much as "We're sorry to see you go" or a thank you for being a long time customer, nothing. He didn't even take the time to tell me when the cancellation would take effect. I had to wait for the verification email to glean that information. 
I am taking my own advice and hanging onto the device rather than selling it, in the event I decide at a later time to reactivate the service. I don't see that happening but who knows; maybe TiVo will realize they're not the only game in town and return to the customer oriented business they once were.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

MichaelAinNB said:


> At the risk of eating a little crow, I have to tell you I took a step toward where you're at just a few minutes ago. I canceled one of our three Premier subscriptions (the priciest of the three). The main reason is, I felt TiVo knowingly duped Premier owners into believing the Winter 'Update" would impact us- specifically, we would have access to the Amazon Prime app. Obviously that didn't happen and now we're being told we have to wait another 6-8 months before we see it. My belief is, TiVo knowingly did this with the intent to encourage Premier owners to upgrade to Roamio. I saw that as extremely poor business practice and said as much in another thread on this forum. I received a few responses to my post, all of which basically chastising me for my "harsh" comments in response to a post by a TiVo VP of Design that outlined what we can expect from the latest update (which, for Premier owners is basically nothing). One response to my post said I should be thankful that TiVo is "being kind to Premier owners". That gentleman obviously isn't a business owner or, if he is, he's obviously not a successful business owner. As I mentioned in my response to him, if TiVo wants to stay in business, it's their job "to be kind" to their customers; regardless if they're S3, Premier or Roamio owners. We're all paying customers and deserve to be treated better than what I saw with this recent update. And, wouldn't you know it, in keeping with this current "lack of customer service" theme, the CS Rep I spoke with at TiVo was anything but customer friendly. All he did was ask which device I wanted to cancel, my reason for cancellation and if I was interested in transferring the service to a family member. Not so much as "We're sorry to see you go" or a thank you for being a long time customer, nothing. He didn't even take the time to tell me when the cancellation would take effect. I had to wait for the verification email to glean that information.
> I am taking my own advice and hanging onto the device rather than selling it, in the event I decide at a later time to reactivate the service. I don't see that happening but who knows; maybe TiVo will realize they're not the only game in town and return to the customer oriented business they once were.


I think that's the most trivial reason for quitting Tivo I've heard. Tops that other thread.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Since Amazon and VUDU were both a surprise to Roamio owners, I am not sure how you can feel duped?


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

trip1eX said:


> I think that's the most trivial reason for quitting Tivo I've heard. Tops that other thread.


You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine, just as the OP is entitled to his. 
That being said, I'm not sure why you title my actions as "quitting". I'm still 3/4's the TiVo customer I was. For now anyway.


----------



## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

MichaelAinNB said:


> You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine, just as the OP is entitled to his.
> That being said, I'm not sure why you title my actions as "quitting". I'm still 3/4's the TiVo customer I was. For now anyway.


Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. What you are _*not*_ entitled to is your own _*facts*_. Can you cite a _*single*_ post, tweet, blog entry or Carrier Pigeon message wherein TiVo even hinted at this?


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

lpwcomp said:


> Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. What you are _*not*_ entitled to is your own _*facts*_. Can you cite a _*single*_ post, tweet, blog entry or Carrier Pigeon message wherein TiVo even hinted at this?


Wow. Little heavy on the *bold* key there, weren't we? Also, I'm not sure carrier pigeon should be capitalized. 
Anyway, if you'll take a few minutes and read some posts from fellow Premier owners, you'll find that I'm not the only one who was led to believe the update allowing access to Amazon Prime would include Premier boxes.

That being said......lighten up- literally.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

MichaelAinNB said:


> Wow. Little heavy on the *bold* key there, weren't we? Also, I'm not sure carrier pigeon should be capitalized.
> Anyway, if you'll take a few minutes and read some posts from fellow Premier owners, you'll find that I'm not the only one who was led to believe the update allowing access to Amazon Prime would include Premier boxes.
> 
> That being said......lighten up- literally.


You first. You pretty much accused TiVo of behaving unethically. Either backup your claim or withdraw it. Citing "fellow Premier owners" is laughable.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

MichaelAinNB said:


> That being said......lighten up- literally.


This from the guy that quit over not getting an update as quickly as you wanted (nevermind was never promised) on a years-old piece of electronics?

The OP tried a few times to make Tivo work.

You? You seem like you're going out of your way to come with a reason to quit.

If you can think of a more trivial reason to quit Tivo then let me know. Yours is tops that I've heard of. Maybe you've heard worse.

Maybe you're the bastion of reason and I'm totally off my rocker on this matter.


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## aridon (Aug 31, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> Why is it satisfying to give up in defeat? That is not satisfying to me. That is infuriating. Different standards I guess.


People expect their stuff to work without having to trouble shoot crap all the time and deal with 3 different departments hoping to get things fixed. Look, everyone knows its not all Tivo's fault. They are in a crappy position of being a third party making hardware for other people's systems. These other people have no love for Tivo and would prefer you use their own hardware and collect the fees.

Ultimately Tivo will likely go out of business. Until then there will be die hards that stick with them. Cool. I like Tivo. I don't like having to deal with the idiots at Comcast though when ESPN doesn't work in HD (LOL V52 AGAIN!) but does in SD or why I've lost my premiums.

Tivo has a lot of hurdles for new customers to sign up. Cable card issues, tuning adapters, very expensive, among other things. The gap between Tivo and other DVRs like the X1, Genie, Hopper etc have closed rapidly. Many features on those other boxes already exceed what Tivo does. Tivo has a few small advantages themselves. Is it really enough to deal with all the bull? For most, hell no and that number seems to be dropping rapidly as time goes on.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

trip1eX said:


> I'm totally off my rocker.


Well, we agree on one thing anyway. :up:


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

lpwcomp said:


> You first. You pretty much accused TiVo of behaving unethically. Either backup your claim or withdraw it. Citing "fellow Premier owners" is laughable.


Not "pretty much accused". I definitely accused TiVo of unethical practices and I stand by that. I'm not sure how citing fellow Premier owners who share my feelings is "laughable". Have you taken the time to read some posts by other Premier owners who were also expecting access to the Amazon Prime service with the Winter Update? No? Here are a few, for example:
_" Updated from 20.4.4a-USA-6-846 to 20.4.5-USA-6-846, Amazon Instant Video still the old UI indeed. I haven't noticed any other changes... "_
_" So I wonder which features will cause us Premiere owners to feel left behind? I hope Amazon Prime isn't one of those....!!!! "_
_"So what does the winter update get me on my Premiere? A lukewarm mug of cynicism and disappointment"_
_"I am not amused one bit that TiVo would ever think that I will drop what I have and go and spend over a thousand dollars just to get two apps when there is no reason that they didn't offer them to us now."_
_"This is why TiVo has been losing subs for years as they needlessly abuse the owners of past platforms._
_"As it stands right now I do not trust TiVo will do the right thing and add these apps to the Premieres." _

At the end of the day, I'm the customer and I feel TiVo has wronged me and it has cost them a subscription. So tell me, old wise one, who's the loser in this equation? Hmmmmm? Me by saving $20 a month by canceling a TiVo subscription or TiVo by losing a customer? I'll do the math for you: I've gained $240 a year and TiVo has lost $240 a year.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

MichaelAinNB said:


> At the end of the day, I'm the customer and I feel TiVo has wronged me and it has cost them a subscription. So tell me, old wise one, who's the loser in this equation? Hmmmmm? Me by saving $20 a month by canceling a TiVo subscription or TiVo by losing a customer? I'll do the math for you: I've gained $240 a year and TiVo has lost $240 a year.


Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


You're obviously not part of the TiVo profit sharing plan. Either that, or you are part of the plan and you enjoy losing money.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

MichaelAinNB,

I'm still waiting for you to cite anything from TiVo that stated that Vudu and Amazon Prime would be available on the Premiere in this release. You can't because they never did. Heck, they never even said they would be available on the Roamio until the last minute.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I bet the reality is he realized he wasn't using his 4th Tivo much and the thought to cancel it had crossed his mind already.

This "update" is just a way to cover the uncomfortable emotion he feels from buying too many Tivos in the first place. Instead of blaming himself..., he can blame Tivo.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

aridon said:


> Ultimately Tivo will likely go out of business. Until then there will be die hards that stick with them.


While Tivo may get out of the retail business, and they might get purchased, I doubt they will go out of business any time soon due to "abuse" of Premier owners. Especially when so many of them have lifetime service. Tivo's revenues primarily come from other sources these days, and their customer base is at an all time high.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

MichaelAinNB said:


> Not "pretty much accused". I definitely accused TiVo of unethical practices and I stand by that. I'm not sure how citing fellow Premier owners who share my feelings is "laughable". Have you taken the time to read some posts by other Premier owners who were also expecting access to the Amazon Prime service with the Winter Update? No? Here are a few, for example:
> _" Updated from 20.4.4a-USA-6-846 to 20.4.5-USA-6-846, Amazon Instant Video still the old UI indeed. I haven't noticed any other changes... "_
> _" So I wonder which features will cause us Premiere owners to feel left behind? I hope Amazon Prime isn't one of those....!!!! "_
> _"So what does the winter update get me on my Premiere? A lukewarm mug of cynicism and disappointment"_
> ...


Did you hear about the new version of iOS not being available for older devices and running really crappy on even last years models? True story. I mean, I know people who have iPads from only a year ago that basically cannot run the latest feature set.

Boy they are so angry that most of them are thinking about going out and buying a new iPad.

Your first-world angst about technology obsolescence is pretty funny.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

aridon said:


> People expect their stuff to work without having to trouble shoot crap all the time and deal with 3 different departments hoping to get things fixed. Look, everyone knows its not all Tivo's fault. They are in a crappy position of being a third party making hardware for other people's systems. These other people have no love for Tivo and would prefer you use their own hardware and collect the fees.


people also like to be able to run a mile without sweating, and earn a paycheck without getting up at 6AM and actually working. People enjoy losing weight and being fit without exercising and having a house without buying or building it.

People like a lot of things that they don't get to have without effort. And being satisfied because you gave up on your pursuit of something you want is called "being a quitter."

Hey, the world is full of quitters. What's one more? I quit a lot. Quitting can be good. But don't be satisfied with it.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

jrtroo said:


> He should have asked for $99 lifetime! Instead we have to read about asinine accusations on rumors we discussed here on these boards. If we wanted him to dump Tivo altogether, then we should start some new rumors that will never be implemented. How about streaming from a nannycam or ordering from Dominos []?


.......Or the HBO-Go app!


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## timchi29 (Feb 26, 2005)

Run from directv.I had them and had issues during rain and snow. What finally did it for me was they raised my rates during the 2 yr contract and called to inquire about the increase. The unintelligent woman on the phone was ignorant and kept on repeating, if I read the bill, I would see that I was notified of the increase, but would not answer why the bill increased during my contract. Still fighting with the idiots over $5 late fee. My last bill said " 

Please note: If you have a credit or debit card on file, we'll automatically charge it in 20 days for any remaining account balance."

So when the date passed and they didnt withdrawal, I paid minus $5 and informed them. They said If I don't pay in 15 days, my account will be accessed another $5 and they will automatically take it out of my account. WTF!! Needless to say I'm paying the $5 to avoid them reporting to credit agency. What a scam.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

timchi29 said:


> Run from directv.I had them and had issues during rain and snow. What finally did it for me was they raised my rates during the 2 yr contract and called to inquire about the increase. The unintelligent woman on the phone was ignorant and kept on repeating, if I read the bill, I would see that I was notified of the increase, but would not answer why the bill increased during my contract. Still fighting with the idiots over $5 late fee. My last bill said "
> 
> Please note: If you have a credit or debit card on file, we'll automatically charge it in 20 days for any remaining account balance."
> 
> So when the date passed and they didnt withdrawal, I paid minus $5 and informed them. They said If I don't pay in 15 days, my account will be accessed another $5 and they will automatically take it out of my account. WTF!! Needless to say I'm paying the $5 to avoid them reporting to credit agency. What a scam.


With both DirecTV and Dish, you are typically subject to annual rate increases after your first year, unless specifically stated otherwise in your offer, which is very rare any more. It is also important with DirecTV to keep your programming level or better during your first 2 years or risk losing discounts. Downgrade and pay more.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

MichaelAinNB said:


> As soon as a comparable product comes along, and it will, that's exactly what I will do.


On cable, with Cablecard? Seriously? Someone doesn't know the history here.

Good luck with that.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

bareyb said:


> But none of those are _really_ comparable to TiVo. I would switch to a different brand of DVR if there was actually something "better", but there isn't. TiVo is still the best DVR there is, hands down. It's got the best feature implementation and it's got PyTiVo (among other cool software add-ons) since it's open source. Pretty tough to beat it if you are an advanced user.


Agreed. Currently, TiVo is the best DVR offered. I've tried the TWC DVR and, not only is its monthly subscription nearly as pricey as TiVo's, the quality of the product doesn't come close.


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## MichaelAinNB (Dec 28, 2013)

bareyb said:


> Maybe he's realizing that he acted too quickly. Either that or he's a non -advanced user and doesn't care what he uses. There ARE people like that out there. I don't understand them but they are out there. To me the DVR is as important as the TV. It's your gateway to all your media. I'm just thankful TiVo exists. Of the alternatives I've seen, they really aren't even close to giving me what I get from TiVo.


If anything, I didn't act quick enough in canceling one of our four TiVo devices and I have a feeling the cancellation of a second sub is in the near future as well. I wish I had discovered the quality and efficiency of Roku sooner as its streaming capabilities far exceed TiVo's. You say the DVR is as important to you as the TV and I respect that and, to a point agree. However, what I don't believe is, the necessity to have a DVR for every TV in the household. As to my level of geekness, I'm probably on par with the majority of other TiVo users. All of our devices are networked and we stream and transfer to and from and we have most, if not all of the corresponding apps that allow compatibility with mobile devices. But, at the end of the day, the majority of the time we use TiVo simply as a DVR.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

OP here. We did finally sign up with U-Verse and are using their 4-tuner DVR. It's not the greatest piece of equipment ever but good enough. I am counting on it to be reliable which is what I couldn't get from Tivo+TWC.

For those that criticized-- Say what you want but I don't feel like a quitter with respect to Tivo. I struggled with Roamio for a year and finally fired Tivo as I was not receiving the value I paid for. So far with U-Verse I have 100% of the recordings I wanted which is very different than my first week with Roamio. I consider Tivo a good termination.


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## thewebgal (Aug 10, 2007)

Very odd - I have had 100+ reliablity with Roamio and FIOS ... 
something I did not get with SD and COX - so I figure the problem was COX, 
not TIVO - at least in my equations ...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

jrtroo said:


> He should have asked for $99 lifetime! Instead we have to read about asinine accusations on rumors we discussed here on these boards.
> 
> If we wanted him to dump Tivo altogether, then we should start some new rumors that will never be implemented. How about streaming from a nannycam or ordering from Dominos []?


Come to think of it, I did hear about the Premiere getting a home automation update including the nannycam feature.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

dtivouser said:


> OP here. We did finally sign up with U-Verse and are using their 4-tuner DVR. It's not the greatest piece of equipment ever but good enough. I am counting on it to be reliable which is what I couldn't get from Tivo+TWC.
> 
> For those that criticized-- Say what you want but I don't feel like a quitter with respect to Tivo. I struggled with Roamio for a year and finally fired Tivo as I was not receiving the value I paid for. So far with U-Verse I have 100% of the recordings I wanted which is very different than my first week with Roamio. I consider Tivo a good termination.


Glad you found something that works for you. I hear the Uverse DVR is pretty nice, even if the channels are bitstarved and overcompressed, but then you had TWC before, so you may not notice the difference, depending on how your local system is setup. Either way, I hope it provides a less stressful experience. Having been through the TWC/Cablecard/TA nightmare myself, I can empathize.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dtivouser said:


> OP here. We did finally sign up with U-Verse and are using their 4-tuner DVR. It's not the greatest piece of equipment ever but good enough. I am counting on it to be reliable which is what I couldn't get from Tivo+TWC.
> 
> For those that criticized-- Say what you want but I don't feel like a quitter with respect to Tivo. I struggled with Roamio for a year and finally fired Tivo as I was not receiving the value I paid for. So far with U-Verse I have 100% of the recordings I wanted which is very different than my first week with Roamio. I consider Tivo a good termination.


Glad to hear it -- good luck to you. Well you **are** a quitter, but as Grakthis finally clarified, your quitting was justified. 


ncted said:


> ....... Having been through the TWC/Cablecard/TA nightmare myself, I can empathize.


+1


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

dlfl said:


> Glad we got that settled. I mistakenly thought you were criticizing him for quitting, while you were really just upset about applying the word "satisfied" to his statement that it "feels so good", where perhaps a different word (relieved ?) would have been appropriate.
> 
> But of course that's just semantics, which *you* say is just a game.


No, semantics is the meanings of words. Semantics games are games. It's what you do when you argue the meaning of a word, rather than argue a position.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

MichaelAinNB said:


> Yeah, and did YOU hear how Apple addressed the complaints from iPad2 owners (me included)? They issued not one, not two, but three updates after the crappy iOS 8.0 was released. And they did so within a month of acknowledging their screw up. So let's compare how TiVo is handling their screw up compared to Apple's response. TiVo says they plan to update Premier boxes sometime in the first half of 2015. That's up to 8 months from now. And if you read their carefully worded release, they never commit to actually doing so. Apple doesn't bother with words, they take action and fix the problem within a month after their error. And we all know actions speak louder than words.


You're doing this thing called rationalizing. You want to believe something, so you find a way to believe it. None of your responses here changes the fact that there is a range of hardware that runs iOS8 so badly that most owners won't upgrade, and there's a range of hardware that flat-out won't get the upgrade at all. Those are both absolutely undeniably true statements.

Sometimes old hardware doesn't get to run new stuff. Deal with it.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

MichaelAinNB said:


> Yeah, and did YOU hear how Apple addressed the complaints from iPad2 owners (me included)? They issued not one, not two, but three updates after the crappy iOS 8.0 was released. And they did so within a month of acknowledging their screw up. So let's compare how TiVo is handling their screw up compared to Apple's response. TiVo says they plan to update Premier boxes sometime in the first half of 2015. That's up to 8 months from now. And if you read their carefully worded release, they never commit to actually doing so. Apple doesn't bother with words, they take action and fix the problem within a month after their error. And we all know actions speak louder than words.


The iPad2 is not capable of taking advantage of all the features of iOS 8, so the comparison actually favors Tivo's decision to delay Amazon and Vudu apps for the Premier. Also, the fact that Tivo is actually talking to it's users, unlike Apple, is a point in Tivo's favor in my book.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> No, semantics is the meanings of words. Semantics games are games. It's what you do when you argue the meaning of a word, rather than argue a position.


Yeah kind of like the post from this guy....... 



Grakthis said:


> And being satisfied because you gave up on your pursuit of something you want is called "being a quitter."
> 
> Hey, the world is full of quitters. What's one more? I quit a lot. Quitting can be good. But don't be satisfied with it.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

dtivouser said:


> TWC might just win because of TWC TV-- if I buy the most basic service from them


That's what I do, and since the most basic service is analog only, I use my antenna to pick up local HD networks, and my TiVoHD is set up as cable + antenna as input, and works dandily. No tuning adapters, and no cable cards.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> Yeah kind of like the post from this guy.......


No, it's actually nothing like that. Because I posited a position.

It's not hard. It's right there. You already quoted it and everything. Take the next major step and read what you quoted.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> No, it's actually nothing like that. Because I posited a position.
> 
> It's not hard. It's right there. You already quoted it and everything. Take the next major step and read what you quoted.


I did. You were arguing the semantics of quitting Tivo vs being satisfied with quitting Tivo when in this case they represent the same position.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

dtivouser said:


> OP here. We did finally sign up with U-Verse and are using their 4-tuner DVR. It's not the greatest piece of equipment ever but good enough. I am counting on it to be reliable which is what I couldn't get from Tivo+TWC.
> 
> For those that criticized-- Say what you want but I don't feel like a quitter with respect to Tivo. I struggled with Roamio for a year and finally fired Tivo as I was not receiving the value I paid for. So far with U-Verse I have 100% of the recordings I wanted which is very different than my first week with Roamio. I consider Tivo a good termination.


Did you switch instead of going to a TWC DVR just to spite TWC? If I had to go with an MSO DVR, I feel like I would rather have some crappy junk DVR on TWC than U-Verse. Do they have all the normal stuff in HD on non-SDV channels, or is it pretty much all SDV? If they have most stuff without SDV, you could have run a TiVo without a TA, and a TWC DVR for the oddball stuff that's on SDV...



thewebgal said:


> Very odd - I have had 100+ reliablity with Roamio and FIOS ...
> something I did not get with SD and COX - so I figure the problem was COX,
> not TIVO - at least in my equations ...


FIOS doesn't use SDV. TWC does. SDV is what causes TiVos so many problems. Well, that and TWC's improper, albeit legal, use of copy protection flags, but that problem is a known, and cripples parts of TiVo, but doesn't cause reliability issues.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> No, semantics is the meanings of words. Semantics games are games. It's what you do when you argue the meaning of a word, rather than argue a position.


Kind of hard to argue a position if there's no agreement on the meaning of the words used in the arguments. You can't separate semantics from arguments.


Grakthis said:


> No, it's actually nothing like that. Because I posited a position.
> 
> It's not hard. It's right there. You already quoted it and everything. Take the next major step and read what you quoted.





trip1eX said:


> I did. You were arguing the semantics of quitting Tivo vs being satisfied with quitting Tivo when in this case they represent the same position.


Aaargh ... think I'm having semantic issues here ... or could it be cognitive dissonance? 

Let's face it: Grakthis, you chose to interpret the OP's post as saying that he felt good about giving up while at least some of us sympathized with his situation and interpreted his post as just saying he was glad the pain was over. Why would we think he was glad his efforts had failed? Not until much later in the thread, upon much goading, did you clarify that you weren't criticizing him for quitting. That was a rather 'interesting' way of arguing a position.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Bigg said:


> Did you switch instead of going to a TWC DVR just to spite TWC? If I had to go with an MSO DVR, I feel like I would rather have some crappy junk DVR on TWC than U-Verse. Do they have all the normal stuff in HD on non-SDV channels, or is it pretty much all SDV? If they have most stuff without SDV, you could have run a TiVo without a TA, and a TWC DVR for the oddball stuff that's on SDV...


The TWC DVR is unusable. Around here (Adelphia country) their equipment hasn't changed in 10 years. So I ruled out TWC for that reason.

The U-Verse DVR is very modern. Everyone complains about PQ but I don't notice it (someone offered that TWC might have been as bad and I'm just used to it). I'm not sure you could get a Tivo to work against U-Verse at all; it is IPTV; they basically connected two DSL lines and are routing two channels per DSL line into a router. The router connects to the DVR via RJ45 (not coax).

And-- you make my point for me-- I haven't the slightest idea if U-Verse is SDV or not and I don't care; I am not encumbered with needing to know that detail like I was with an incompatible Roamio.

Edit to add: I am not a cheerleader for U-Verse! Just sharing the facts.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

dtivouser said:


> And-- you make my point for me-- I haven't the slightest idea if U-Verse is SDV or not and I don't care; I am not encumbered with needing to know that detail like I was with an incompatible Roamio.


SDV is more of a cable industry term, but all U-verse channels operate very similar to how SDV works, that is the channel stream is only coming through if someone in your household is watching (or recording) the channel. That is why U-verse is limited to 4 simultaneous streams. Old phone lines just don't have very much bandwidth, which is also why people say U-verse picture quality is so bad. Even limiting users to 4 streams, they still have to compress the crap out of them. AT&T did U-verse as cheaply as they could, choosing to use the same unshielded copper phone lines that have been in the ground for decades rather than running new fiber or coax cables to every residence they serve.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> SDV is more of a cable industry term, but all U-verse channels operate very similar to how SDV works, that is the channel stream is only coming through if someone in your household is watching (or recording) the channel. That is why U-verse is limited to 4 simultaneous streams. Old phone lines just don't have very much bandwidth, which is also why people say U-verse picture quality is so bad. Even limiting users to 4 streams, they still have to compress the crap out of them. AT&T did U-verse as cheaply as they could, choosing to use the same unshielded copper phone lines that have been in the ground for decades rather than running new fiber or coax cables to every residence they serve.


I'm not sure that is true everywhere. I know in Raleigh, they ran a lot of new fiber to VRADs to support Uverse. It is only the last mile that is copper. I wonder if they'll switch to G.fast when it comes out? Probably not once they have DirecTV.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

dlfl said:


> Kind of hard to argue a position if there's no agreement on the meaning of the words used in the arguments. You can't separate semantics from arguments.
> 
> Aaargh ... think I'm having semantic issues here ... or could it be cognitive dissonance?
> 
> Let's face it: Grakthis, you chose to interpret the OP's post as saying that he felt good about giving up while at least some of us sympathized with his situation and interpreted his post as just saying he was glad the pain was over. Why would we think he was glad his efforts had failed? Not until much later in the thread, upon much goading, did you clarify that you weren't criticizing him for quitting. That was a rather 'interesting' way of arguing a position.


Why would we think he was glad his efforts had failed? Well, let's start with the tread title.

"Shutting off Tivo service feels so good."

I think a response of "conversational implicature suggests he's not actually happy that it didn't work out" is a valid response to what I said. But that's not the tact people took.

I would respond to that approach by saying that the OP intentionally used inflammatory language that people would read as derogatory of TiVo and if he' going to do that, he deserves what he gets.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> I did. You were arguing the semantics of quitting Tivo vs being satisfied with quitting Tivo when in this case they represent the same position.


No, those are not the same position.

Being satisfied that I quit hurting myself is not the same as being satisfied that I didn't finish the race. Asserting that this distinction is semantics is a misuse of the word "semantics."


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> No, those are not the same position.
> 
> Being satisfied that I quit hurting myself is not the same as being satisfied that I didn't finish the race. Asserting that this distinction is semantics is a misuse of the word "semantics."


That is semantics.

Def: "the meanings of words and phrases in a particular context."

You're arguing about the semantics of a phrase of his when clearly the gist of his post is the same in either case. He tried to make Tivo work and couldn't and so he gave up and quit.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Angels and head of a pin, meet Grakthis and trip1eX.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> Angels and head of a pin, meet Grakthis and trip1eX.


Yeah I'm not quite there yet. I've only got a few sentences posted on this important topic.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ncted said:


> I'm not sure that is true everywhere. I know in Raleigh, they ran a lot of new fiber to VRADs to support Uverse. It is only the last mile that is copper. I wonder if they'll switch to G.fast when it comes out? Probably not once they have DirecTV.


That's exactly the problem. That last mile being over copper is a killer. Right now, they are probably capable of around 50Mbps over copper under good conditions, but each active video stream eats up 6Mbps of that, which is why U-verse limits you to 4 simultaneous streams, so hopefully they will have some bandwidth left over to provide internet service at the same time as TV service. And 6Mbps is not really enough for a good quality HD video stream, but they do it because they have such limited bandwidth. And if you are over 1000' from the VRAD, your potential bandwidth starts to drop, and over 2000' away, your potential data speeds drop off a cliff. My house is ~2700' from the VRAD, which basically eliminates U-verse as a serious option for me.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> And 6Mbps is not really enough for a good quality HD video stream, but they do it because they have such limited bandwidth.


Don't tell DirecTV customers that. 6Mbps is about the best they see. Dish uses even less.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Both DirecTV and Uverse use MPEG-4 for everything, so 6Mbps is actually pretty good for most content. Some really busy action sequences will sometimes get bit starved, but that is by far the exception (at least on DirecTV). And DirecTV uses statmux, so 6Mbps is the average...it can get bigger if needed as long as the other content on the transponder can spare the bandwidth.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> That is semantics.
> 
> Def: "the meanings of words and phrases in a particular context."
> 
> You're arguing about the semantics of a phrase of his when clearly the gist of his post is the same in either case. He tried to make Tivo work and couldn't and so he gave up and quit.


Do you actually believe that is all that matters?

"I quit because TiVo sucks."

"I quit because TWC sucks."

"I quit because I suck."

Do you think those three statements are equivalent, because in all three cases, I quit? Or do you think the locus of control shifts in each example, making the prescriptive advice and judgement of the situation different for each one?

if you think those three are equivalent, well, you're the kind of person I am mocking here. But I am pretty sure, once I've phrased it this way, you will intuitively be able to see that those are NOT the same.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> Angels and head of a pin, meet Grakthis and trip1eX.


Psht. We can fit some more on here. Come join us.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Diana Collins said:


> Both DirecTV and Uverse use MPEG-4 for everything, so 6Mbps is actually pretty good for most content. Some really busy action sequences will sometimes get bit starved, but that is by far the exception (at least on DirecTV). And DirecTV uses statmux, so 6Mbps is the average...it can get bigger if needed as long as the other content on the transponder can spare the bandwidth.


For whatever reason, the 6Mbps on U-verse does not seem to be enough for a good quality HD picture. I've been to a friends house and seen U-verse HD and it just doesn't look very good. With their severe bandwidth issues, AT&T should shift from H.264 to H.265 as soon as possible. I think that would be their best bet for increasing their HD quality.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> For whatever reason, the 6Mbps on U-verse does not seem to be enough for a good quality HD picture. I've been to a friends house and seen U-verse HD and it just doesn't look very good. With their severe bandwidth issues, AT&T should shift from H.264 to H.265 as soon as possible. I think that would be their best bet for increasing their HD quality.


Somehow I doubt they are actually getting 6 Mbps most of the time. Based on what Dish is doing (around 3.8Mbps), I'd guess less than 4 Mbps for Uverse.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> Why would we think he was glad his efforts had failed? Well, let's start with the tread title.
> 
> "Shutting off Tivo service feels so good."


I wonder how many readers interpreted this the way you did?


Grakthis said:


> I would respond to that approach by saying that the OP intentionally used inflammatory language that people would read as derogatory of TiVo and if he' going to do that, he deserves what he gets.


I just re-read the first post and I don't see inflammatory language in either the title or the content. He just summarized all the bad experiences he had. If that is derogatory to TiVo (or any other entity) then so be it. So now you're saying you were attacking his post because you thought TiVo needed defending -- rather than because (you thought) he was happy to be a quitter?


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

I tried to be factual in my posts in this thread. I do wish I had started by saying "I fired Tivo" rather than implying quitting, but the labels don't bother me.

That I fired Tivo does not mean you should too. The person who posted that they use it only for OTA has a situation I really admire. Simple fact is, the Tivo+TWC situation here just doesn't work and I want to share that there is life after Tivo.

I also stopped going to the Chipotle by my house because they hire idiots to run the register, so in a righteous indignant way it also feels good to drive the extra mile to the other Chipotle when I need a burrito fix. Am I being a victim? I guess maybe but voting with my money is important part of consumerism.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> Do you actually believe that is all that matters?
> 
> "I quit because TiVo sucks."
> 
> ...


You're making a straw man argument. NO one is saying small changes in phrasing can't have different meanings.

What I'm saying is you took the "feels so good" headline and "quitting" out of context. And played semantics with that in your 1st post which said:

"Why is it so satisfying to give up in defeat? That is not satisfying to me."

By doing so, you started your shift of the argument from "why did you quit Tivo?" to 'one should never be happy to quit something.'

..which was actually your first straw man argument.

There is plenty of context there to define where he was coming from. He listed the problems he had. The headaches he had. The time he had to spend addressing those problems. He even used the word "relieved" in the first or second sentence.

Instead of taking it all in, you went off on a tangent about running races and not giving up as if running a race and getting a Tivo are both competitions. The Tivo isn't supposed to be the race. It's supposed to be the prize.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> You're making a straw man argument. NO one is saying small changes in phrasing can't have different meanings.
> 
> What I'm saying is you took the "feels so good" headline from his post and combined that with "quitting" and then played semantics with this phrasing with your very first post when you asked,
> 
> ...


So how is all this " on topic?"


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Captainbob said:


> So how is all this " on topic?"


Hey captain, are you saying you never make off-topic posts? If that's true I salute you -- you're the Mother Teresa of this forum.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dtivouser said:


> I tried to be factual in my posts in this thread. I do wish I had started by saying "I fired Tivo" rather than implying quitting, but the labels don't bother me.
> .......


Your post was fine. Someone just decided to miss your point so they could give you what you "deserved".


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

dlfl said:


> Hey captain, are you saying you never make off-topic posts? If that's true I salute you -- you're the Mother Teresa of this forum.


Don't make any more off topic posts than some of the lifers on this forum.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

dtivouser said:


> The TWC DVR is unusable. Around here (Adelphia country) their equipment hasn't changed in 10 years. So I ruled out TWC for that reason.


That bad? Not just old iGuide/Explorer software?



> The U-Verse DVR is very modern. Everyone complains about PQ but I don't notice it (someone offered that TWC might have been as bad and I'm just used to it). I'm not sure you could get a Tivo to work against U-Verse at all; it is IPTV; they basically connected two DSL lines and are routing two channels per DSL line into a router. The router connects to the DVR via RJ45 (not coax).


They've made it less bad over the past few years, but it's still pretty bad- even worse than the notoriously bad Comcast and DISH. DirecTV reigns supreme nationally, FIOS is better than DirecTV, and Google Fiber is the ultimate, since they are the only provider that doesn't re-compress anything.

It's not 2 channels per. The whole line is bonded, and some installations with 4HD's are using a single pair if they are closer to the VRAD. Yes, you can connect via coax or Ethernet since it's all IP. It's a neat idea, just a poor implementation of it. TiVo could work with U-Verse if AT&T and TiVo collaborated on software to make it work via IP. Hell will probably freeze over before that happens.



tarheelblue32 said:


> SDV is more of a cable industry term, but all U-verse channels operate very similar to how SDV works, that is the channel stream is only coming through if someone in your household is watching (or recording) the channel.
> 
> 
> > Not really at all. There is a tiny bit of similarity in terms of only sending a channel in use. But that's about it. SDV uses "slots" shared by the entire node, likely 100-200 customers, and if 15 different houses are all watching the same SDV channel, they all see the same physical QAM signal.
> ...


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

tarheelblue32 said:


> For whatever reason, the 6Mbps on U-verse does not seem to be enough for a good quality HD picture. I've been to a friends house and seen U-verse HD and it just doesn't look very good. With their severe bandwidth issues, AT&T should shift from H.264 to H.265 as soon as possible. I think that would be their best bet for increasing their HD quality.


All they need to do is give it just a little bit more bandwidth, and it would look better. I think D* is basically stat multiplexing over all the channels on a TP, so they are getting much better looking results without using a whole lot more bandwidth vs. AT&T's CBR streams that are set up to work with an individual VDSL line.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Bigg said:


> That bad? Not just old iGuide/Explorer software?


Nope. TimeWarnerCable Navigator. Built from scratch in Java by a cable company, not a software company.



Bigg said:


> I *think* D* is using higher bitrates than that. Their video looks pretty darn good, while DISH and U-Verse look like crap.


Technically, the bitrates can go higher than that when needed and bandwidth is available on the transponder, but that is the high watermark most of the time from what the folks over at satelliteguys.us say.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ncted said:


> Nope. TimeWarnerCable Navigator. Built from scratch in Java by a cable company, not a software company.
> 
> Technically, the bitrates can go higher than that when needed and bandwidth is available on the transponder, but that is the high watermark most of the time from what the folks over at satelliteguys.us say.


Interesting...


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> I want someone to make a good software DVR that runs on Windows, but I highly doubt anyone will. MCE is the only one that exists currently, and it's a mess. The promise of being able to build your own hardware, add a ton of tuners and storage, and add software customizations sounds great, but it needs TiVo or better execution.


Not quite as polished as the TiVo UI, but MCE works quite well. I set up my recordings and walk away. All my stuff gets recorded and it's easy to watch. I got an MCE specific remote for ~$15 that works well. Again, not as nice as the TiVo remote, but quite good. I have a tiny dedicated PC that pulls OTA from my network via a Silicondust device. No tuner cards needed.

It works reliably and meets all my needs.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dtivouser said:


> I tried to be factual in my posts in this thread. I do wish I had started by saying "I fired Tivo" rather than implying quitting, but the labels don't bother me.
> 
> That I fired Tivo does not mean you should too. The person who posted that they use it only for OTA has a situation I really admire. Simple fact is, the Tivo+TWC situation here just doesn't work and I want to share that there is life after Tivo.
> 
> I also stopped going to the Chipotle by my house because they hire idiots to run the register, so in a righteous indignant way it also feels good to drive the extra mile to the other Chipotle when I need a burrito fix. Am I being a victim? I guess maybe but voting with my money is important part of consumerism.


Your posts are fine. Some of these guys will criticize, insult, parse every word you wrote, and tell you what you true intention is because they apparently know better than you do. And they'll tell all the reasons that your decision was the wrong one or that it was "trivial."

For some here reading anything remotely critical of TiVo engenders ire you'd expect from calling their newborn child ugly.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Darichard said:


> Not quite as polished as the TiVo UI, but MCE works quite well. I set up my recordings and walk away. All my stuff gets recorded and it's easy to watch. I got an MCE specific remote for ~$15 that works well. Again, not as nice as the TiVo remote, but quite good. I have a tiny dedicated PC that pulls OTA from my network via a Silicondust device. No tuner cards needed.
> 
> It works reliably and meets all my needs.


Don't get Bigg started on yet another rant about WMC. Please.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Don't get Bigg started on yet another rant about WMC. Please.


No intent to start an argument. Just stating that it's relatively inexpensive and works well for me. I get that it may not be acceptable or practical for others.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

dlfl said:


> I wonder how many readers interpreted this the way you did?


Well, I did.

I mean, what you're asking me is, how many people interpreted what he said, the way he said it? I hope everyone.



> I just re-read the first post and I don't see inflammatory language in either the title or the content. He just summarized all the bad experiences he had. If that is derogatory to TiVo (or any other entity) then so be it. So now you're saying you were attacking his post because you thought TiVo needed defending -- rather than because (you thought) he was happy to be a quitter?


*points back to the thread title*

Ooooooook guy. Whatever you have to convince yourself to not admit I'm right. I don't need you to realize it.

No, I'm attacking his post because he expressed contentment at quitting because something was too hard. Which is sad.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

dtivouser said:


> I tried to be factual in my posts in this thread. I do wish I had started by saying "I fired Tivo" rather than implying quitting, but the labels don't bother me.
> 
> That I fired Tivo does not mean you should too. The person who posted that they use it only for OTA has a situation I really admire. Simple fact is, the Tivo+TWC situation here just doesn't work and I want to share that there is life after Tivo.
> 
> I also stopped going to the Chipotle by my house because they hire idiots to run the register, so in a righteous indignant way it also feels good to drive the extra mile to the other Chipotle when I need a burrito fix. Am I being a victim? I guess maybe but voting with my money is important part of consumerism.


Ah, introducing righteous indignation DOES change the context. See? There are responses to me that aren't laughably stupid! For example, this one.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> You're making a straw man argument. NO one is saying small changes in phrasing can't have different meanings.


I apologize, that's not my goal. I am paraphrasing your argument to be best of my ability. If that's not you argument, I hope you'll correct me and explain what your argument *IS*



> What I'm saying is you took the "feels so good" headline and "quitting" out of context. And played semantics with that in your 1st post which said:
> 
> "Why is it so satisfying to give up in defeat? That is not satisfying to me."
> 
> By doing so, you started your shift of the argument from "why did you quit Tivo?" to 'one should never be happy to quit something.'


No one SHOULD ever be happy to quit something "in defeat." Which is what I said. Cutting off "in defeat" destroys the meaning of what I said.



> ..which was actually your first straw man argument.
> 
> There is plenty of context there to define where he was coming from. He listed the problems he had. The headaches he had. The time he had to spend addressing those problems. He even used the word "relieved" in the first or second sentence.


That's great. So let's say, if we read everything, we find nuance above his thread title. Does that excuse his thread title? Sensationalism should not be rewarded.



> Instead of taking it all in, you went off on a tangent about running races and not giving up as if running a race and getting a Tivo are both competitions. The Tivo isn't supposed to be the race. It's supposed to be the prize.


I took it all in. His headline was "Shutting off Tivo service feels so good." He said that. That's his thread title. I'm calling him out for that. Maybe you are giving him the benefit. I didn't.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> I apologize, that's not my goal. I am paraphrasing your argument to be best of my ability. If that's not you argument, I hope you'll correct me and explain what your argument *IS*
> 
> No one SHOULD ever be happy to quit something "in defeat." Which is what I said. Cutting off "in defeat" destroys the meaning of what I said.
> 
> ...


I agree that you're playing semantics.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Your posts are fine. Some of these guys will criticize, insult, parse every word you wrote, and tell you what you true intention is because they apparently know better than you do. And they'll tell all the reasons that your decision was the wrong one or that it was "trivial."
> 
> For some here reading anything remotely critical of TiVo engenders ire you'd expect from calling their newborn child ugly.


Yeah and some can't distinguish between irrational and rational. IN this case the OP seems pretty rational.

In other cases, people have some pretty petty reasons for quitting which makes you question their sanity and speculate on what's really going on.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Yeah and some can't distinguish between irrational and rational. IN this case the OP seems pretty rational.
> 
> In other cases, people have some pretty petty reasons for quitting which makes you question their sanity and speculate on what's really going on.


Rational to me may not be rational to you. We all impose our values, expectations, and biases into our rationality. There can be rational people on both sides of an issue. "Petty" is subjective, is it not?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Darichard said:


> Not quite as polished as the TiVo UI, but MCE works quite well. I set up my recordings and walk away. All my stuff gets recorded and it's easy to watch. I got an MCE specific remote for ~$15 that works well. Again, not as nice as the TiVo remote, but quite good. I have a tiny dedicated PC that pulls OTA from my network via a Silicondust device. No tuner cards needed.
> 
> It works reliably and meets all my needs.


The UI is a mess, it's unreliable, there are no good remotes that I've ever been able to find. Yeah, it's a mess.

A PC-based DVR is a great idea in theory, and MCE innovated a lot in the mid-2000's with the server-client model that all major DVR platforms use today, but no one has gotten the implementation right.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> The UI is a mess, it's unreliable, there are no good remotes that I've ever been able to find. Yeah, it's a mess.
> 
> A PC-based DVR is a great idea in theory, and MCE innovated a lot in the mid-2000's with the server-client model that all major DVR platforms use today, but no one has gotten the implementation right.


I get why it would not work for some people. Remote is very subjective - I'm fine with the MCE knockoff.

Reliability issues I don't see: I don't recall my current PC ever locking up or crashing. I probably have rebooted it in 3 months or longer. It just runs, doing it's thing. I can't claim TiVo reliability, but it's quite reliable for me.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Darichard said:


> I get why it would not work for some people. Remote is very subjective - I'm fine with the MCE knockoff.
> 
> Reliability issues I don't see: I don't recall my current PC ever locking up or crashing. I probably have rebooted it in 3 months or longer. It just runs, doing it's thing. I can't claim TiVo reliability, but it's quite reliable for me.


I've never seen a decent one. I had all sorts of reliability issues, mostly on the driver and playback side. It will vary from user to user based on hardware, but it was a mess. Everything else that I use the HTPC for now works fine.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Darichard said:


> I get why it would not work for some people. Remote is very subjective - I'm fine with the MCE knockoff.
> 
> Reliability issues I don't see: I don't recall my current PC ever locking up or crashing. I probably have rebooted it in 3 months or longer. It just runs, doing it's thing. I can't claim TiVo reliability, but it's quite reliable for me.


Here we go again. You're wasting your time, utterly.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> I agree that you're playing semantics.


Yeah, I'm bored with this discussion too. Seems like dismissive responses that don't actually address the topic are the way to go here. Otherwise we're never getting away from this. Or else just let the WMC discussion take over the thread and quietly sneak out.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Rational to me may not be rational to you. We all impose our values, expectations, and biases into our rationality. There can be rational people on both sides of an issue. "Petty" is subjective, is it not?


There can be irrational people on one side and rational on the other.

And we have common standards and measures which we use to judge things like rationality and pettiness.

And just because someone somewhere on the planet finds something acceptable doesn't mean it isn't petty or irrational.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> ........No one said the amount of effort were acceptable. No one said it wasn't right for him to quit. I said he shouldn't be SATISFIED with quitting.





Grakthis said:


> .......
> No, I'm attacking his post because he expressed contentment at quitting because something was too hard. Which is sad.


So he did something that was arguably "right" and you found it "sad" that he seemed to be contented or satisfied with that, your erroneous interpretation, probably not perceived that way by even 1% of readers. And so you attacked his post. Doesn't sound like constructive criticism to me, or was there some other motivation for your attack?


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

dlfl said:


> So he did something that was arguably "right" and you found it "sad" that he seemed to be contented or satisfied with that, your erroneous interpretation, probably not perceived that way by even 1% of readers. And so you attacked his post. Doesn't sound like constructive criticism to me, or was there some other motivation for your attack?


If given a choice between hitting (in my car) a child or hitting a dog, I would hit the dog. I would not say that "felt good." i would regret hitting that dog. I would lament it. I would feel ****ty about it. I would never start a thread saying "hitting that dog was so satisfying."

This is a trivial point I am making, one that should be met with nothing more than a shrug.

Is it constructive? Maybe. If he changed his outlook because of it, it might be. If he didn't, then it's a lesson for someone else reading the thread.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> If given a choice between hitting (in my car) a child or hitting a dog, I would hit the dog. I would not say that "felt good." i would regret hitting that dog. I would lament it. I would feel ****ty about it. I would never start a thread saying "hitting that dog was so satisfying."


Very poor analogy to the OP's situation but you are consistent in misinterpreting it, as has been pointed out numerous times already.


Grakthis said:


> This is a trivial point I am making, one that should be met with nothing more than a shrug.
> .........


By your logic, the same could be said about my first post in this thread, but you didn't opt to meet it with a shrug. Actually, misinterpreting the OP's post in such a way as to justify criticizing him for enjoying quitting is not a trivial point.



Grakthis said:


> Is it constructive? Maybe. If he changed his outlook because of it, it might be. If he didn't, then it's a lesson for someone else reading the thread.


The OP doesn't need to change his outlook, which was a reasonable one given the circumstances. You flatter yourself if you think you are providing a "lesson" for anyone -- other than how futile it is to keep defending an invalid point.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

OK, the horse is dead already!


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> There can be irrational people on one side and rational on the other.
> 
> And we have common standards and measures which we use to judge things like rationality and pettiness.
> 
> And just because someone somewhere on the planet finds something acceptable doesn't mean it isn't petty or irrational.


Honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Sure, you can have rationality on one side of the argument and irrationality on the other. Let me guess, in any given argument YOU are on the rational side, right? Dude, really? Do we you really think that much of yourself?

Let's say there's a discussion about the recent election. (And NO I don't want to go there - this is an example only.) Once person says the election results are a clear mandate against Obama and Obamacare. Another person responds that since 95% of all congress people elected spent more money campaigning, that it's clearly about money. They both accuse each other of being irrational. Who is right? Rationality for an argument is in the eye of the beholder and is rooted in personal values

If you want to get into the technique of structuring an argument logically, we can go there too. However that's very different than rationality.

And please, trip1eX, enlighten us with your "common standards and measures" by which I we can all uniformly measure things like rationality and pettiness. (I'll apply your measures to this paragraph to determine if it's petty or not.)


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Darichard said:


> Honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Sure, you can have rationality on one side of the argument and irrationality on the other. Let me guess, in any given argument YOU are on the rational side, right? Dude, really? Do we you really think that much of yourself?
> 
> Let's say there's a discussion about the recent election. (And NO I don't want to go there - this is an example only.) Once person says the election results are a clear mandate against Obama and Obamacare. Another person responds that since 95% of all congress people elected spent more money campaigning, that it's clearly about money. They both accuse each other of being irrational. Who is right? Rationality for an argument is in the eye of the beholder and is rooted in personal values
> 
> ...


I'm just saying some people are petty and irrational and in denial when it comes to their reasons for canceling Tivo.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Darichard? Didn't you start one of these "screw you TiVo I'm going home" threads that went on and on and on? Nice to see you're branching out.


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

bareyb said:


> Darichard? Didn't you start one of these "screw you TiVo I'm going home" threads that went on and on and on? Nice to see you're branching out.


Ok, that was hysterical. I literally LOL. And yes I did. People here didn't relate to my POV. It generated some ire.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bareyb said:


> Darichard? Didn't you start one of these "screw you TiVo I'm going home" threads that went on and on and on? Nice to see you're branching out.





Darichard said:


> Ok, that was hysterical. I literally LOL. And yes I did. People here didn't relate to my POV. It generated some ire.


Are you now a TiVo user? Or do you just come here for the scintillating discussion?


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## Series2user (Nov 9, 2014)

Nice post


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## christheman (Feb 21, 2013)

dlfl said:


> Are you now a TiVo user? Or do you just come here for the scintillating discussion?


I came to Casablanca for the waters...


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## Darichard (Dec 31, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Are you now a TiVo user? Or do you just come here for the scintillating discussion?


I'm not. Just came by for the heck of it and ran across this discussion. I'm using WMC which works well for my needs. Not starting a flame war - I'm not saying it's better or easier than a TiVo.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

christheman said:


> I came to Casablanca for the waters...


The waters? What waters? We're in the desert.

I was misinformed.


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