# Initial Thoughts on MRS (Multi-Room Streaming)



## AllYourBase (Oct 24, 2007)

Been sitting on a review that came to my attention a while ago. Wanted to share.

1) Allows both streaming and transfers (where permissions allow both). See first picture.
2) Allows streaming of copy/CCI-protected videos.
3) Allows streaming of videos that are still recording. See second picture.
4) Streaming of the remote video is so fluid that it's indistinguishable from local video playback. Trick play commands (8-sec rewind, 30SS, skip to tick, FF, etc.) all work seamlessly.
5) Noticed some quirks with the "Watch from paused point" (the selection would jump to "Play from beginning" and then do just that). But this may have been the test configuration rather than a true bug in MRS.
6) Noticed some artefacts (pixelation) in the video that are not present if you transfer the recording. If these to out to be persistent, then this might be the reason MRS hasn't been fully released yet.
7) Bandwidth requirements for MRS slightly above the video bit-rate. 100Mbit and 802.11n networks should not have any problems. 802.11g networks may experience playback shuddering of HD videos.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

#4 sounds promising, though I imagine it is network dependent and also dependent on the person watching. 

#5 doesn't surprise me since this happens in normal playback sometimes for me on local recordings. The marker just jumps around initially but doesn't affect playback.

Of course since I am on FiOS without any current programs blocked, I am not that worried about streaming right now. More important will be whether or not TiVo finally releases an option for a universal My Shows list. Even if they do i imagine it will be limited to the Premiere models only.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

AllYourBase said:


> Been sitting on a review that came to my attention a while ago. Wanted to share.


A review of what? someone in the beta program?


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## news4me2 (Jul 10, 2010)

Aside from recorded TV content, I would really like my TIVO to stream Web Video downloads and Video Purchases.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

Wake me up when/if the TiVo can ever stream to my Xoom, and/or to a cheap, subscriptionless settop box.


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## Rebate_King (Nov 10, 2004)

What software version number are you on?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

crxssi said:


> Wake me up when/if the TiVo can ever stream to my Xoom, and/or to a cheap, subscriptionless settop box.


Why would you want that? One thing I found out when trying to view any TV content on any box other than TiVo is that the TiVo does the best job of skipping through commericals. As well as skip back etc. So I don't even bither transferring any content from my TiVo to my other devices any more unless there are no commercials or the commercials have been removed.

Now where did the OP get these pics? Is this from a production software version or a beta version? Hopefully this will be released soon to the masses. Alot of people have been waiting for streaming and will be very pleased.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

crxssi only has one box and I am going to take a leap and predict that he has no intention of purchasing another one. 

I have fios with no blocked content as well, but I do like #3. Now a Universal My Show list would make me seriously consider upgrading my S3 to a second Premier!

Looks like Tivo has been working hard on adding new features - happy to see them developing again.


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

Like bradleys, I'm on Verizon Fios and so I don't have problems doing transfers between boxes. But #3 will come in handy during football season, when I'm recording two games on one Tivo and another one or two on the second Tivo.


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## jbcheshire (Jun 6, 2006)

I am not sure what his review is of, but it appears that it is a current situation of having two premiere units. Because I have two Premiere's now and I am able to do #1. It works great. I have one on a wireless setup (D-Link DIR 655) and the other is on a ethernet-over-power.

I would love, however, to have the ability to stream my recorded shows to my iPad, whether on my own home wi-fi network or away from my house since I can create a personal wi-fi hotspot for my iPad 1....


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

crxssi said:


> Wake me up when/if the TiVo can ever stream to my Xoom, and/or to a cheap, subscriptionless settop box.


TiVo is working on something they call a "Premiere Preview" which will do that. Although at the moment it's not clear what the price/subscription model will be, so it might not be "subscriptionless". (Although I think they're stupid if they try to charge a subscription for a streaming only box)

Dan


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## aridon (Aug 31, 2006)

crxssi said:


> Wake me up when/if the TiVo can ever stream to my Xoom, and/or to a cheap, subscriptionless settop box.


Why wait? Sling already will sling to your zoom or just about any other mobile device.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

bradleys said:


> crxssi only has one box and I am going to take a leap and predict that he has no intention of purchasing another one.


Exactly. I am not going to pay $500+ for a [tivo] device so I can occasional watch some program in my bedroom! Especially when I have other devices I could use that I already own (like the Xoom). In my, case, I am not even sure it would be worth $150. The value will greatly vary from person to person, of course.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

People with families that monopolize the main TV put a greater value on the ability to watch content in other rooms. I think this is more for them then you.

Dan


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Something like the Preview would have been perfect for me in the bedroom. I rarely watch TV in the Bedroom but I do have a Premiere with the stock drive in it currently in tyhe bedroom. Something like the Preview could have saved me some money. Allowing me to still tune into a program and also stream any of the content from my other four Premieres. Of course now there would be no reason for me to have one. Although I would consider it if I could sell the Premiere for a good price and make a decent amount of profit after getting a Preview. Of course they would have to offer the preview for retail sale first.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I can see where steaming would be useful to people with multiple TVs. And I see no down side for TiVo to offer Premiere to Premiere streaming. 

Regarding if TiVo should sell something like the Preview or even a simple box like a Roku is another matter all together. First is would have to be profitable in an of itself and second it would have to not decrease sales of the Premiere. I have no market data so I have no way of knowing what is possible or probable. But my gut tells me a it would be money looser for TiVo.

But that is from a person who has 3 HD TiVos attached to the same TV just to record OTA. 

Thanks,


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> (Although I think they're stupid if they try to charge a subscription for a streaming only box)


The Preview isn't a streaming only box though. It has a tuner, guide data, trickplay, and streaming apps. So it's pretty clear TiVo is going to charge a subscription for it unless they want to sell only "lifetime" on these units.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

rainwater said:


> The Preview isn't a streaming only box though. It has a tuner, guide data, trickplay, and streaming apps. So it's pretty clear TiVo is going to charge a subscription for it unless they want to sell only "lifetime" on these units.


If it costs a subscription, then it defeats the purpose of a whole-home solution. That said, I agree, it'll probably cost a subscription.

Perhaps it'll be a sliding subscription fee applied to the main box, depending on how many Previews are connected to it. While the math would be the same, it probably sounds more palatable to the consumer that way.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

smbaker said:


> If it costs a subscription, then it defeats the purpose of a whole-home solution.


It doesn't defeat the purpose, it just costs more than some people want. There really isn't any consumer whole home solutions for consumers other than Moxi and those are basically "lifetime" units, so it is hard to compare. Directv requires boxes in each room that have costs associated with them, so I don't see how this is any different. And I think TiVo did the right thing by having a tuner on the box to prevent user frustration by always having an available tuner for live tv.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

smbaker said:


> If it costs a subscription, then it defeats the purpose of a whole-home solution. That said, I agree, it'll probably cost a subscription.
> 
> Perhaps it'll be a sliding subscription fee applied to the main box, depending on how many Previews are connected to it. While the math would be the same, it probably sounds more palatable to the consumer that way.


Basing a fee on how units are connected sounds like the kind of arcane nonsense that TiVo might try, but they would do better to simplify like they eventually did with Premiere pricing. They will surely charge something if the Preview uses guide data, but it would have to be significantly less than a Premiere subscription, or why would anyone opt for a unit without a hard drive?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

L David Matheny said:


> Basing a fee on how units are connected sounds like the kind of arcane nonsense that TiVo might try, but they would do better to simplify like they eventually did with Premiere pricing. They will surely charge something if the Preview uses guide data, but it would have to be significantly less than a Premiere subscription, or why would anyone opt for a unit without a hard drive?


You could also ask why would TiVo build and sell it if they aren't going to make more money than by not making and selling it.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

atmuscarella said:


> You could also ask why would TiVo build and sell it if they aren't going to make more money than by not making and selling it.


Because they don't NEED to make or sell any hardware at all to make this happen. They can support existing OTHER hardware for streaming. Computers, phones, tablets, cheap existing set top boxes, etc.

Why? Because the hardware aspect is not profitable for them, and they are unlikely to get most people to pay yet more fees for something many/most customers perceive a box of the TiVo's supposed functionality and price SHOULD support. It is about keeping TiVo relevant, and ahead of things like cable company DVR's. If they have interest in adding such features, TiVo will just fade away.

When I pay for an Internet connection or a phone line, I don't have to pay more to add an additional computer on it or another phone connected. When I buy a WiFi router, I don't have to pay extra to serve another client. You get the idea.... sometimes things should just be included. BTW- I don't see TiVo charging a price OR a monthly fee for the iPad app... How are they making money off that???


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

crxssi said:


> Because they don't NEED to make or sell any hardware at all to make this happen. They can support existing OTHER hardware for streaming. Computers, phones, tablets, cheap existing set top boxes, etc.
> 
> Why? Because the hardware aspect is not profitable for them, and they are unlikely to get most people to pay yet more fees for something many/most customers perceive a box of the TiVo's supposed functionality and price SHOULD support. It is about keeping TiVo relevant, and ahead of things like cable company DVR's. If they have interest in adding such features, TiVo will just fade away.
> 
> When I pay for an Internet connection or a phone line, I don't have to pay more to add an additional computer on it or another phone connected. When I buy a WiFi router, I don't have to pay extra to serve another client. You get the idea.... sometimes things should just be included. BTW- I don't see TiVo charging a price OR a monthly fee for the iPad app... How are they making money off that???


I am assuming TiVo made the Business decision that a iPad app would support additional Premiere sales and profits over not having an iPad app.

If their data shows supporting streaming either to third party devices or something they sell will support additional Premiere sales and profits over not having such streaming available then of course they should do it. If however their marketing data shows it will either not increase sales enough to off set the costs or even worse yet decrease Premiere sales and profits, then why exactly would they do it?

What you or I want as individuals is irrelevant to what TiVo does. Their actions have to be dictated by what they reasonable believe (based on the data they have) will lead to increased profits.

I personally wanted an HD TiVo that could record 2 OTA channels and record a third show from an analog HD Satellite STB output. If my Premiere did that instead of having cable cards I would likely have stayed with dish. That is the basic setup I had when I was SD. TiVo could easy build such a DVR and becasue of low demand, I am fairly sure they would loose money doing so. So why would they do it? And why would I expect them too?

In your case you want to stream to another TV but don't want to pay much. Well I am sure many people want to do that, but if most are willing to buy a second or third TIVo why would TiVo take a chance that future sales and profits decrease to make a few people happier?

You should not assume that most people are not willing to pay for multiple DVRs. I have 3 on one TV just cause I wanted more storage and tuners. I have several friends that have 3+ TVs they have DVRs on all of them and wouldn't think of giving them up. On the other side of that coin I also have friends that are still 100% SD and use a VCR and would never pay for any DVR. My point is you or I have no idea what TiVo's marketing data is telling them.

Thanks,


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## johnner1999 (Oct 26, 2002)

hmm this thread has (almost) brought me back from DirecTV to my local CableCo... main reason I left cable was 1)no streaming of tivo content if it was locked with 1 copy bit flag; 2)cablecard hiccups 

so if this stream is in beta now I assume we won't see it for at least 6 months (than again who knows when oe what step of the beta this screen grab was taken. 

Hmmm I was going to buy a moxi but thanks to someone on another thread it seems moxi is once step closer to joining RePlayTV :-( 

any suggestions?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo is working on something they call a "Premiere Preview" which will do that. Although at the moment it's not clear what the price/subscription model will be, so it might not be "subscriptionless". (Although I think they're stupid if they try to charge a subscription for a streaming only box)
> 
> Dan


If they don't charge a subscription, then I think some users would consolidate multiple Tivo subscriptions in favor of previews. But maybe that would be offset by additional new subscriptions. It's probably asking a lot for people to pay more than one subscription in today's economy.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> If they don't charge a subscription, then I think some users would consolidate multiple Tivo subscriptions in favor of previews. But maybe that would be offset by additional new subscriptions. It's probably asking a lot for people to pay more than one subscription in today's economy.


They have to charge a subscription. I don't see how they can license Tribune data otherwise. Of course, all this is assuming the Preview ever sees the retail channel at all.


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## johnner1999 (Oct 26, 2002)

rainwater said:


> They have to charge a subscription. I don't see how they can license Tribune data otherwise. Of course, all this is assuming the Preview ever sees the retail channel at all.


I don't see it seeing retail shelfs.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

rainwater said:


> It doesn't defeat the purpose, it just costs more than some people want.


It defeats the purpose in the respect that if I wanted to pay another subscription fee, then I'd buy another Premiere. The whole point of a whole-home DVR is to have a capable master and simple inexpensive slave units.



L David Matheny said:


> They will surely charge something if the Preview uses guide data


why? The Master could download the guide data, cache it, and the slaves could receive their guide data from the master. No additional Tivo resources need be consumed. Okay, so maybe we have a licensing fee issue. However, if there's no recording, then the slaves don't need guide data anyway. The "browsing" can be done interactively on the master, with the slave acting like little more than a dumb terminal.

My iPad can make use my Premiere's guide data, and there is no subscription fee to do so. Run the iPad app on the Preview. Problem solved.



shwru980r said:


> If they don't charge a subscription, then I think some users would consolidate multiple Tivo subscriptions in favor of previews.


... and that, is the whole point of having a master/slave configuration. Does Tivo want this? probably not, they'd like to keep living in 1999. However, if the competition offers whole home solutions, then Tivo must do so as well.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

aridon said:


> Why wait? Sling already will sling to your zoom or just about any other mobile device.


I was thinking the same thing -- sling via TiVo and/or stream with a Vulkano. No subscription. I suspect the Preview will offer more though.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

smbaker said:


> ...However, if the competition offers whole home solutions, then Tivo must do so as well.


The difference is the competition (and I believe we're talking about cable/sat providers here) can subsidize the cost of those whole home solutions from non-whole home customers, much the same that they can subsidize DVR costs from non-DVR customers. TiVo has no such luxury.


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## ghuido (May 9, 2007)

I'm confused is the Premiere now supporting Multi-Room Streaming or are those pictures Mock Ups?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

orangeboy said:


> The difference is the competition (and I believe we're talking about cable/sat providers here) can subsidize the cost of those whole home solutions from non-whole home customers, much the same that they can subsidize DVR costs from non-DVR customers. TiVo has no such luxury.


If other devices (Roku, Blu-ray players, media players, etc) can be sold for $100, then a Tivo slave could be sold for $100 also, with no subscription.

If it includes a tuner and a cablecard slot, and a bunch of other junk that drives up the cost to the point it can't be sold for around $100, then it's a marketing/design mistake.



ghuido said:


> I'm confused is the Premiere now supporting Multi-Room Streaming or are those pictures Mock Ups?


I asked the same with no response. Speculation is these are leaks from the beta program.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ghuido said:


> I'm confused is the Premiere now supporting Multi-Room Streaming or are those pictures Mock Ups?


I would have to think those are shots taken from a Premiere that is participating in a Field Trials Beta program (NTTAFTBPs), and shouldn't have been disclosed publicly.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

smbaker said:


> If other devices (Roku, Blu-ray players, media players, etc) can be sold for $100, then a Tivo slave could be sold for $100 also, with no subscription.


So TiVo has to eat the costs of Tribune licensing? How do you propose they do that?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

smbaker said:


> If other devices (Roku, Blu-ray players, media players, etc) can be sold for $100, then a Tivo slave could be sold for $100 also, with no subscription.


 Maybe maybe not, remember the Moxi mate costs $300. And given they are going to build the Preview for cable companies if something comes to retail it would have to be basically the same unit otherwise how many "TiVo Slaves" could they sell? I don't see much in it for TiVo to try and build a $100 Roku type box. They would likely make little or nothing on it. Of course what it did for future DVR sales would be more important. My guess would be it would decrease future DVR sales and profitability unless bundled with the sale of say a new 4 tuner DVR.



smbaker said:


> If it includes a tuner and a cablecard slot, and a bunch of other junk that drives up the cost to the point it can't be sold for around $100, then it's a marketing/design mistake.


I am fairly sure that the reason TiVo is building the Preview is because it is what the cable companies that are going to buy it wanted. While TiVo may not care what you or I want individually I can assure they do care what individual cable companies want.


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## ghuido (May 9, 2007)

orangeboy said:


> I would have to think those are shots taken from a Premiere that is participating in a Field Trials Beta program (NTTAFTBPs), and shouldn't have been disclosed publicly.


Thanks. I was wondering if I missed a huge announcment or was loosing my mind.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

rainwater said:


> So TiVo has to eat the costs of Tribune licensing? How do you propose they do that?


Are they eating licensing costs when I view guide data using the iPad app with my Premiere? Doubt it.



atmuscarella said:


> Of course what it did for future DVR sales would be more important.


Exactly. If they could avoid selling slaves and sell expensive Premieres with $14.95 subscriptions, they would. Unfortunately for them, the product is evolving whether they like it or not. Refusing to develop a whole-home solution may in the long run mean zero DVRs sold. Surely, they don't want that to happen.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

smbaker said:


> Are they eating licensing costs when I view guide data using the iPad app with my Premiere? Doubt it.
> 
> Exactly. If they could avoid selling slaves and sell expensive Premieres with $14.95 subscriptions, they would. Unfortunately for them, the product is evolving whether they like it or not. Refusing to develop a whole-home solution may in the long run mean zero DVRs sold. Surely, they don't want that to happen.


No because the iPad app accesses the TiVo for the data just look at the thread titled discovering the iPad interface. This is also why you use TiVo.com through the app if you aren't on the same network as your TiVo.

I don't even know that the premiere will support more than one iPad accessing it at once.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> No because the iPad app accesses the TiVo for the data just look at the thread titled discovering the iPad interface.


Yes.... and?

Is there some reason why a slave unit could not be designed to function in the same way?



innocentfreak said:


> I don't even know that the premiere will support more than one iPad accessing it at once.


Unless the Premiere is hopelessly underpowered (which it is not) or incredibly poorly designed (which it may be), I see no reason why it couldn't handle queries from multiple Ipads or Ipad-like devices.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

smbaker said:


> Yes.... and?
> 
> Is there some reason why a slave unit could not be designed to function in the same way?
> 
> Unless the Premiere is hopelessly underpowered (which it is not) or incredibly poorly designed (which it may be), I see no reason why it couldn't handle queries from multiple Ipads or Ipad-like devices.


The point is it doesn't make sense to have multiple units potentially trying to do these type of requests from the same box at the same time. I don't think these all in one chips could handle the task.

It isn't one slave unit. It is up to 3 plus local use plus the iPad. What happens when the Q is recording 4 shows and all 5 people try to do a search at once? If we were talking about a PC, this would be different. We are talking about a CE device with all in one chips. People think the HDUI is slow now wait until you have to wait on searches because others might be searching at the same time.

Why deal with local queries when you can have the info stored on the local device?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> We are talking about a CE device with all in one chips.


It runs Linux. It has a scheduler. It can easily handle both real-time and best effort jobs without causing failure of the real-time jobs. Because the HDUI is slow doesn't mean the underlying backend to the database is slow. I'd argue the opposite, since SDUI is rather fast, that the common backend is also fast. Even on a consumer electronic device, a database the size of the Tivo guide data should be able to support a many simultaneous users. Servicing a query is not a continuous job; you service it and move on to the next query.

I'm not sure what's causing people to set the bar so low for this device. Tivo's failure to properly implement the HDUI is exactly that -- an implementation failure. It doesn't mean the hardware is incapable of performing useful work.

Furthermore, we have a second core that probably still isn't being used. Do we even know the Premiere Q specs? Perhaps it includes an even more capable processor and more memory.



innocentfreak said:


> Why deal with local queries when you can have the info stored on the local device?


As pointed out by someone else (which may or may not be true depending on what Tivo has negotiated), licensing fees. It was argued a subscription must be charged because the box would have to receive guide data.


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## jbcheshire (Jun 6, 2006)

What exactly do you mean by "does it now do multi-streaming"??
I have two Premiere units and I can stream/transfer a show from one to the other with the ability to start the transfer at the "paused" point of the show if I have already started watching it. Is this different than what you consider multi-streaming??


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

That is transferring. You are transferring a copy then watching the copy of the local hard drive. Streaming would not be putting a copy on a local drive.

Streaming is important for the people that have restrictions on the content that doesn't allow it to be transferred to another box. With streaming you get around that since you are viewing the content from the box that has the stored copy instead of transferring the copy to storage on anotehr box.


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## jbcheshire (Jun 6, 2006)

Okay, i understand now. 
Yes, I would like to have that streaming capability in part at least from the shows stored on my Premiere to my iPad...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

rainwater said:


> They have to charge a subscription. I don't see how they can license Tribune data otherwise.


They sold many TiVos in the past with free "TiVo Basic" features that used Tribune data. The catch was that they only got 3 days of data, rather then the full 12. If the Preview is just a tuner with a guide then it wouldn't need more then 3 days of data anyway.

Dan


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## mf22 (Jul 2, 2011)

I hope Charter allows MRV streaming.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> They sold many TiVos in the past with free "TiVo Basic" features that used Tribune data. The catch was that they only got 3 days of data, rather then the full 12. If the Preview is just a tuner with a guide then it wouldn't need more then 3 days of data anyway.
> 
> Dan


I would hope you would be able to schedule a recording and season passes from the Preview. Otherwise it really cuts down on the useability. And to be able to schedule something you would need more than 3 days of guide data.

If it does only have 3 days of guide data and you can't schedule recordings with it, then there is no chance that I will be getting one.(again assuming it is sold at retail)


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

It will be interesting to see how they handle season passes. Because if they add it to the Preview, they should be able to add an option on the Premiere where you can setup a season pass from another Premiere.


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