# downloading copy protected shows



## DrNorm (Jul 17, 2009)

I have my old Series 3 box and finally upgraded to a Bolt. Along the way, I have saved a lot of crap but have collected a number of shows that I really would like to hold on to. I realize there is no longer any way to directly transfer shows from a Series 3 but it is possible to archive some of those shows to a PC before "decommissioning" the old DVR.

I have looked through his forum and learned about KMTTG and can certainly give that a go, except it appears that even KMTTG cannot download copy protected shows?

If this is true, is there any good workaround? I have multiple different pieces of software that can rip through any DVD and get around all sorts of copy protection so there has got to be "something" similar for copy protected TiVo recordings? There's really only about 1/2 dozen shows (e.g., some sports stuff) that I'd like to keep but it really would be nice if there were some reasonable way to do this.

Thanks.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Copy protection prevents copying, not much you can do other than look for the content from other sources.


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## DrNorm (Jul 17, 2009)

I understand the purpose of copy protection- but there are MANY pieces of software (Handbrake, AnyDVD, MacX DVD Video Converter) that allow you to copy protected files for "personal archiving". I am willing to bet there is such a piece of software to access CP files TivO HDD's, as well.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Nope. TiVo recordings are encrypted using a chip on the motherboard. There is no way to crack them once they are recorded. There are hacks for older units that would allow you to disable that chip which would in turn make all recordings after the hack unprotected, but even with that hack there was no way to crack the recordings that happened before you disabled the chip.


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## thewebgal (Aug 10, 2007)

Kills me - I have a Jimmy Buffett Gulf special on my old HD TIVO that I can't move off or move to my Roamio! Don't want to sell it but I don't want to have to activate the TIVO and all of that just to see it again ...


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## DrNorm (Jul 17, 2009)

Wow. Thank you for that. I don't know that I knew/remembered about the encryption. I had assumed it was encrypted by the provider? '

I still have a hard time believing that getting at the TiVo HDD directly would be not work? I say that because ANY encryption can be cracked (and, how is it played back if "encrypted" since it has to be decrypted to playable video format???)

Not very practical or elegant but there is also an easy hardware way around it which I used to use on occasion.... I attached a (Hauppauge) video capture/conversion device via an S-video or RCA cable from TiVo or VCR and then plugged that into a laptop via USB with video capture software. It captures in real-time so conversion is slow but it did do the job. Hauppauge still makes a number of similar products (Hauppauge Product Selector) and I imagine that one of these would work if deemed worth the effort/price.

Most of these hardware devices I can find convert analog video to digital- so you are certainly losing a lot of quality going from D -> A -> D but if you have something you really have to archive/convert (especially if converting from a VHS tape) then that is indeed a fairly inexpensive option but not what I am really looking for, here.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It can't be cracked because the key used to encrypt/decrypt is stored on a physical chip attached to the motherboard of the TiVo itself. And every TiVo has a unique chip with a unique key.


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## DrNorm (Jul 17, 2009)

Well, Dan. You're a Super Moderator, so I trust you got it right. Wow. I bought my first TiVo in 2001 and never realised that. I guess that leaves the "hardware route" except then you're stuck with composite or S-video analog quality. The fact that Series 3 were deactivated for TiVo Desktop only adds insult. Can't even (easily) get to my non-copy protected content.

Just curious- who decides what content TiVo CP's? I noticed it was primarily new-release, network TV shows. I seem to remember (back when could use Tivo Desktop) "local" news was not protected, some older, syndicated shows were not, etc.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

DrNorm said:


> I understand the purpose of copy protection- but there are MANY pieces of software (Handbrake, AnyDVD, MacX DVD Video Converter) that allow you to copy protected files for "personal archiving". I am willing to bet there is such a piece of software to access CP files TivO HDD's, as well.


Actually there is a way to copy copy protected content. I do it all the time. But, you need a DVD recorder, and, it will be in SD, not HD. You just play the content with composite outs to the DVD composites in. Not a fast process since you have to do it in real time. Then you can take the DVD to your PC and go from there.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

DrNorm said:


> Well, Dan. You're a Super Moderator, so I trust you got it right. Wow. I bought my first TiVo in 2001 and never realised that. I guess that leaves the "hardware route" except then you're stuck with composite or S-video analog quality. The fact that Series 3 were deactivated for TiVo Desktop only adds insult. Can't even (easily) get to my non-copy protected content.
> 
> Just curious- who decides what content TiVo CP's? I noticed it was primarily new-release, network TV shows. I seem to remember (back when could use Tivo Desktop) "local" news was not protected, some older, syndicated shows were not, etc.


Hauppauge makes a device that can capture the HDMI output in HD. It's not cheap though...

Amazon.com: Hauppauge 1512 HD-PVR 2 High Definition Personal Video Recorder with Digital Audio (SPDIF) and IR Blaster Technology: Computers & Accessories

Edit: Looks like the Rocket version can record directly to a USB drive, and is powered by USB as well, so it could be hooked up to a TiVo more easily for offloading your shows. About the same price though.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

You can purchase an HD capture card for your PC - they work using the component analog outputs of the TiVo series 3 and will get you the 1080i HD quality. They are popular these days as they are often used to stream video games online.

Some even have HDMI ports that *may* work (I can't remember if HDCP is enforced - these capture cards do not work with HDCP).

So while it's less convenient, at least you can get it in as best quality as possible.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

thewebgal said:


> Kills me - I have a Jimmy Buffett Gulf special on my old HD TIVO that I can't move off or move to my Roamio! Don't want to sell it but I don't want to have to activate the TIVO and all of that just to see it again ...


This one?


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

DrNorm said:


> I realize there is no longer any way to directly transfer shows from a Series 3 but it is possible to archive some of those shows to a PC before "decommissioning" the old DVR.


I am not sure what you really meant by this statement - actually directly copying programs from a S3 box either to your Bolt or a PC is quite simple - all except for the copy-protected ones, of course. The copy protected ones cannot be simply downloaded; they must be re-recorded from the playback output.

As stated by others, there are numerous hardware options that allow you to record the video output from the S3 device - some in SD and some in HD. I do a lot of recording of the component-out signals from various DVR boxes through a Hauppauge HD-PVR 1212 box (older hardware). Those recordings are full HD, either 720p or 1080i. Unfortunately, the cost of any of these options really does not make sense for just a few recordings, even if you do not mind the learning curve. Everything has to be recorded in real time, and then usually edited some, so it can be a lot of work (especially if you want to remove commercials).

I would be happy to copy any of those programs for you and return them on DVD/Blu-ray discs or any desired PC file format, but even if you wanted to trust a stranger to do that, just paying shipping costs for the box to and from me probably does not make any sense. It all depends on how bad you want to keep them. Good luck in your search for a solution.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

thewebgal said:


> Kills me - I have a Jimmy Buffett Gulf special on my old HD TIVO that I can't move off or move to my Roamio! Don't want to sell it but I don't want to have to activate the TIVO and all of that just to see it again ...


I also really liked that special and had it on "KUID" on my old TiVo HD, now sold. I didn't bother to try to save off the recordings from that box so .... gone. But I'm cheap so wouldn't pay more than a few bucks to get a copy.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

jlb said:


> This one?


That's one of 19 songs from that concert available from "parrot head" on YouTube. Just search "Jimmy Buffett Gulf Concert". I liked the way he personalized them with adlibs, and the enthusiastic crowd scenes.


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

DrNorm said:


> Just curious- who decides what content TiVo CP's? I noticed it was primarily new-release, network TV shows. I seem to remember (back when could use Tivo Desktop) "local" news was not protected, some older, syndicated shows were not, etc.


Actually, TiVo does not decide to CP anything - that is done by a CP flag that the broadcaster/cable company decides to include in the source signal. While all programs on a TiVo device are encrypted so they cannot be shared with other devices not on the same account, that is not the same thing as copy protection. Normal encrypted but not copy protected TiVo recordings can be freely copied between any TiVo device or the TiVo Desktop software that uses the same Media Access Key, and once the files are on a PC, the TiVo "wrapper" is easily removed to make them just normal AV files.

BTW - TiVo Desktop still works just fine, even with your new Bolt.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

You should never see protection on local network shows. It's actually illegal for cable companies to set the copy protection flag on those. If you do see local network shows protected you should report your cable company to the FCC.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> You should never see protection on local network shows. It's actually illegal for cable companies to set the copy protection flag on those. If you do see local network shows protected you should report your cable company to the FCC.


Actually there are several waivers for that and I believe NYC allows locals to be encrypted from one of the waivers.


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## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

IIRC the guy who wrote requiem (software for stripping iTunes copy protection) back in the day also had a way to remove HDCP from an HDMI signal. Unfortunately his site is long gone.

I did find this, though. I guess it comes down to just how much you want to save that Jimmy Buffett video...

Tweaking4All.com - How to remove HDCP from HDMI signal ...


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

dianebrat said:


> Actually there are several waivers for that and I believe NYC allows locals to be encrypted from one of the waivers.


I believe you and Dan are talking about 2 different things. As you indicated many cable companies have gotten permission to encrypt local channels, however that is not the same as what Dan is talking about, he is referring to the permission a cable company can set that tell a cable card DVR what restriction there are on recording a show and copying it to other devices. In any event I have no idea what the FCC rules say so I can not state anything other than what someone else (like Dan in this case) has said.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yes I'm referring to protecting the recordings via the CCI byte. Encrypting them only effects whether or not a CableCARD is require to tune them. With TiVo a CableCARD is always required for the channel mapping anyway, so it doesn't really matter if they're encrypted. The CCI byte is what effects transferring recordings or streaming them outside the home.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

thewebgal said:


> Kills me - I have a Jimmy Buffett Gulf special on my old HD TIVO that I can't move off or move to my Roamio! Don't want to sell it but I don't want to have to activate the TIVO and all of that just to see it again ...


When you say activate it, do you mean connect it etc? If you are referring to TiVo activation, you don't need to activate a TiVo to watch stored content and you can't activate S3/HD TiVo's any more (non-lifetime).

Scott


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

DrNorm said:


> The fact that Series 3 were deactivated for TiVo Desktop only adds insult. Can't even (easily) get to my non-copy protected content..


TiVo Desktop still works to transfer shows to and from S3's with pulls at least for non-copyprotected content?

I know that for people who bought Desktop Plus that auto-transfers stopped working due to the sign-in issues but that was for all TiVo's and not just S3's.

Why do you think it was "deactivated"?

Scott


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

There is one more method to get these recordings off in full resolution. Via a Slingbox and kmttg.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> When you say activate it, do you mean connect it etc? If you are referring to TiVo activation, you don't need to activate a TiVo to watch stored content and you can't activate S3/HD TiVo's any more (non-lifetime).


But if it's an S3/TivoHD that they let monthly service lapse, then you indeed cannot reactivate it and not active means no networking capability.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> But if it's an S3/TivoHD that they let monthly service lapse, then you indeed cannot reactivate it and not active means no networking capability.


Sorry, I focused on the part of her sentence which was "just to see it again" and skipped over the move part. 

Scott


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> TiVo Desktop still works to transfer shows to and from S3's with pulls at least for non-copyprotected content?


For Mpeg2 recordings, yes. For H.264(MP4), no. The S3 does not support Transport Stream/TD Fast transfers, which are required for H.264 content.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo HD to Roamio transfers are not currently supported, bug in the new software.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

jcthorne said:


> There is one more method to get these recordings off in full resolution. Via a Slingbox and kmttg.


That was my first thought too.. You can get a certified refurbished Slingbox 350 for <$60 on Amazon. It can take the component output from the S3 tivo and encode it to h.264 that kmttg can then save (there's a bit of setup work to get this functionality, but I believe it's all documented at kmttg's website). Not sure about the resolution, it might be limited to 720 and below (but if this is the only method to archive something unique and unlikely to re-air, it might be acceptable enough).


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## buccobruce (Aug 25, 2007)

lew said:


> Tivo HD to Roamio transfers are not currently supported, bug in the new software.


I just got upgraded to 20.6.3, tried to xfer from TiVo HD, reports it can't communicate with it in spite of multiple reboots. Have you gotten a ticket from TiVo?

bb


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> For Mpeg2 recordings, yes. For H.264(MP4), no. The S3 does not support Transport Stream/TD Fast transfers, which are required for H.264 content.


Good point for the HD models!

Scott


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

buccobruce said:


> I just got upgraded to 20.6.3, tried to xfer from TiVo HD, reports it can't communicate with it in spite of multiple reboots. Have you gotten a ticket from TiVo?
> 
> bb


Reported via online chat.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

gonzotek said:


> That was my first thought too.. You can get a certified refurbished Slingbox 350 for <$60 on Amazon. It can take the component output from the S3 tivo and encode it to h.264 that kmttg can then save (there's a bit of setup work to get this functionality, but I believe it's all documented at kmttg's website). Not sure about the resolution, it might be limited to 720 and below (but if this is the only method to archive something unique and unlikely to re-air, it might be acceptable enough).


So technically, that's not full resolution, right? Since you're still reencoding it...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mattack said:


> So technically, that's not full resolution, right? Since you're still reencoding it...


Resolution refers to the pixels. If the source is 1920x1080 and the output is 1920x1080 it's still full resolution.

Recoding isn't that bad as long as the bitrate is is sufficient. Trust me everything you watch has been recoded at least a half dozen times by the time it gets to you anyway.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Trust me everything you watch has been recoded at least a half dozen times by the time it gets to you anyway.


Words to remember for the obsessive, like me, continually re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

While I agree with Dan's comment in general (and I absolutely acknowledge that he knows WAY more about this than I do), I will still offer a couple of caveats. First, recoding does not HAVE to be bad, but it CAN be - poor software or improper configuration settings can absolutely introduce video problems, no matter how many pixels remain.

Secondly, once some content is lost, it cannot be regained, so if somewhere along the line a video is taken down to 720 or less, and then recoded back to 1080, it will NOT be full resolution, even though it still says 1980x1020. I know that is obvious, but just wanted to mention the whole chain of custody thing needs to be followed instead of just looking at the stats on the file in hand. Same thing if a progressive recording is recoded to interlaced, then back to progressive.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

V7Goose said:


> Same thing if a progressive recording is recoded to interlaced, then back to progressive.


There are some special cases where this isn't true. In the case of DVDs a movie is converted from 24fps progressive to 29.97 interlaced used a method called telecine. Telecine uses a very specfic pattern to create the interlacing and it can actually be reversed. This is referred to as reverse telecine or 3:2 pulldown depending on the software/device you're using.

This also applies to most 1080i content as well, but because broadcasters recode and insert ads it's nearly impossible to get a clean reverse telecine. I do have one customer who meticulously cuts his files on exact frames to insure cadence and a clean reverse telecine, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you've got a LOT of time and patience.


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## dnissen (Oct 17, 2009)

I know i'm a little late, but you can download it to the TiVo app on any Tablet or phone that has the app. I do this to my iPad.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

dnissen said:


> I know i'm a little late, but you can download it to the TiVo app on any Tablet or phone that has the app. I do this to my iPad.


Only if you have a Stream.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> Only if you have a Stream.


Edit: And only to an iPhone/iPad. The Android app won't do it.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

dnissen said:


> I know i'm a little late, but you can download it to the TiVo app on any Tablet or phone that has the app. I do this to my iPad.





lpwcomp said:


> Only if you have a Stream.


The original poster was trying to get copy protected video off a Series 3. I don't think you can use the TiVo app and a Stream to down load content from a Series 3 to a tablet or phone.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> The original poster was trying to get copy protected video off a Series 3. I don't think you can use the TiVo app and a Stream to down load content from a Series 3 to a tablet or phone.


You are correct. The only thing you can do with protected recordings that are on an S3 is play them on that TiVo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> Edit: And only to an iPhone/iPad. The Android app won't do it.


I'm pretty sure they added protected downloading to the Android app a while back.

The biggest caveat to doung this is that it deletes the original from the TiVo and there is no way to transfer it back if you decide you want to watch it on the big screen instead.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah I just checked on my Samsung tablet and you can download protected shows just like on my iPad. (i.e. little check box warning the show will be deleted from the TiVo)


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah I just checked on my Samsung tablet and you can download protected shows just like on my iPad. (i.e. little check box warning the show will be deleted from the TiVo)


 I actually checked before I posted but forgot that I had WiFi turned off on my phone. Once I enabled it, I did get the download option.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

lpwcomp said:


> Only if you have a Stream.


Or a TiVo that streams like my Roamio Plus and others.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

UCLABB said:


> Or a TiVo that streams like my Roamio Plus and others.


It can stream because it has integral Stream h/w.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The Bolt uses it's Broadcom chip to do streaming. It does not have the same internal Stream hardware that the Roamio Plus/Pro had.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> It can stream because it has integral Stream h/w.


You're understood, but makes sense to have the clarification that it can be built-in Stream/Stream-like technology.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

I don’t understand much of this thread. I have/ had a Tivo S3. I had hundreds of OTA shows on it. When I moved to my Bolt last year I moved every show to the Bolt without a hitch. And with the media access key there are several different programs that will strip DRM of shows transferred to the PC (just google it)

I think this thread has assumed cablecard tivo users only. For us broadcast only Tivo users everything the original poster wanted to do is trivially possible

...Dale


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dajad said:


> I don't understand much of this thread. I have/ had a Tivo S3. I had hundreds of OTA shows on it. When I moved to my Bolt last year I moved every show to the Bolt without a hitch. And with the media access key there are several different programs that will strip DRM of shows transferred to the PC (just google it)
> 
> I think this thread has assumed cablecard tivo users only. For us broadcast only Tivo users everything the original poster wanted to do is trivially possible
> 
> ...Dale


No one has been assuming anything. The initial post of this thread specifically asked about transferring "copy protected" recordings.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> Dajad said:
> 
> 
> > When I moved to my Bolt last year I moved every show to the Bolt without a hitch. And with the media access key there are several different programs that will strip DRM of shows transferred to the PC (just google it)
> ...


Right.

I think Dale may be confusing encrypted TiVo recordings (which can be decrypted via various utilities provided the MAK) and copy-protected content as flagged by the signal source. Copy protection blocks the ability to download or transfer a show off the original TiVo on which it was recorded; the best you can do is stream it, as allowed.

And, yeah, I'm not aware of any OTA antenna content flagged as copy-protected, so all OTA content has been copy-freely in my experience. At the other end of the spectrum lies, well, Spectrum cable TV customers.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

krkaufman said:


> Right.
> 
> I think Dale may be confusing encrypted TiVo recordings (which can be decrypted via various utilities provided the MAK) and copy-protected content as flagged by the signal source. Copy protection blocks the ability to download or transfer a show off the original TiVo on which it was recorded; the best you can do is stream it, as allowed.
> 
> And, yeah, I'm not aware of any OTA antenna content flagged as copy-protected, so all OTA content has been copy-freely in my experience. At the other end of the spectrum lies, well, Spectrum cable TV customers.


It's against the law to copy protect OTA broadcasts, so there isn't even a standard for that and cable companies aren't allowed to encrypt them when they re-transmit. Everything else on cable is up to the discretion of the cable company. Time Warner was the worst offender. They copy protected everything except the locals. When Charter bought them they didn't seem to change that policy in those areas (yet), but in other Charter areas they're much more lax only flagging premium channels.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Not sure if the FCC ever bothered to just rescind the rule, but most of the major players got waivers allowing them to encrypt everything, including locals, years ago.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> cable companies aren't allowed to encrypt them when they re-transmit.





lpwcomp said:


> Not sure if the FCC ever bothered to just rescind the rule, but most of the major players got waivers allowing them to encrypt everything, including locals, years ago.


Wondering if Dan meant to say aren't allowed to copy protect them when they re-transmit as you are right that Comcast certainly was allowed to (and did) encrypt OTA broadcast channels a few years ago.

Scott


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HerronScott said:


> Wondering if Dan meant to say aren't allowed to copy protect them when they re-transmit as you are right that Comcast certainly was allowed to (and did) encrypt OTA broadcast channels a few years ago.
> 
> Scott


I did. I meant copy protect, not encrypt, sorry. It's so easy to mix those up even for someone that knows the difference.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

I do not understand why they never allowed copying of protected recordings from one tivo on your system to another. When I got the used LS XL4, it used the same key as my Roamio Pro always had. Still encrypted and not going anywhere. It's a pain. I can't move those recordings off my RP to the XL4. Yes, I guess it's a law. I don't care much for stupid laws...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

samccfl99 said:


> ...... I don't care much for stupid laws...


LOL. Who does? Should we have a poll on "I like stupid laws"?


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

samccfl99 said:


> I don't care much for stupid laws...


What is 'stupid' is in the eye of the beholder.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

idksmy said:


> What is 'stupid' is in the eye of the beholder.


Da.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

What they could have done and what they still could do is allow a copy-protected recording to be _*moved*_ from one TiVo to another just as they now allow it to be moved to a phone or tablet.

There is no way they could have allowed copying it. Copy-protected means that only one accessible copy of the recording can exist.


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

krkaufman said:


> Da.


Jawohl.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> What they could have done and what they still could do is allow a copy-protected recording to be _*moved*_ from one TiVo to another just as they now allow it to be moved to a phone or tablet.
> 
> There is no way they could have allowed copying it. Copy-protected means that only one accessible copy of the recording can exist.


I'm guessing they never bothered because the current design is geared more toward streaming rather then transfer. They probably don't want to put much effort into the transfer stuff.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> They probably don't want to put much effort . . . .


Yep.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> It's *against the law to copy protect OTA broadcasts*, so there isn't even a standard for that and cable companies aren't allowed to encrypt them when they re-transmit.


I don't think it is actually against the law to copy protect OTA.

As I recall there was some FCC rule about Broadcast Flag.

Then there was a lawsuit that FCC exceeded its authority in mandating Broadcast Flag for receiving equipment since their purview was just the transmission of signals, not the receiving equipment specifications.

There was an attempt to slip the Broadcast Flag into legislation, but that legislation ended up not passing.

Then Windows Media Center ended up implementing support for the Broadcast Flag even though it wasn't required to by any legislation.

Then FCC eventually just officially dropped the Broadcast Flag into the dust bin when cleaning up obsolete regulation.

One could argue the efficacy of transmitting in the clear, then relying on a Broadcast Flag to enforce content source's intentions, then forcing all equipment to honor the Broadcast Flag on the receiving devices, but as I understand it, it isn't against the law to copy protect. Is is just a moot issue, because there is no current equipment (not withstanding old equipment that might be stuck on old interepretations of the FCC) that will honor the Broadcast Flag today.

I only bring this up because if some broadcaster/content provider was to revisit Broadcast Flag and, on their own, convince the hardware manufacturers to honor the Broadcast Flag (highly unlikely), then you couldn't point to legislation that said this was against the law.

I vaguely recall at some point some broadcasters were setting the Broadcast Flag incorrectly and TiVo mapped this into one of its CCI modes. There might have been some thread about that back in the day.

Maybe I'm wrong. Does anybody know of legislation that specifically makes it against the law to copy protect OTA broadcasts?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

sfhub said:


> I don't think it is actually against the law to copy protect OTA.
> 
> As I recall there was some FCC rule about Broadcast Flag.
> 
> ...


The "law" I'm referring to prevents cable companies from protecting broadcast channels. I don't think it's an actual law though, I thnk it's just an FCC regulation.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> The "law" I'm referring to prevents cable companies from protecting broadcast channels. I don't think it's an actual law though, I thnk it's just an FCC regulation.


The rule you are thinking of was amended to allow encryption of basic tier in October 2012

Commission Relaxes The Cable Encryption Prohibition

The transition requirement was the cable operator had to provide equipment for basic tier free of charge for some period of time if customers requested it.

The reasoning for changing the old rule was that by 2012 most people either had set top boxes or CableCARDs because systems had gone all digital with the tiers above basic tier being encrypted so the number of people affected by encryption of basic tier would be small, while it would allow easier provisioning by cable operators since they wouldn't need to roll a truck to physically connect/disconnect your cable (or remove/add a blocking device) when you subscribed/unsubscribed.

So today, there is no rule that basic (including broadcast) tier needs to be in the clear anymore.

Prior to 2012 cable operators had to request a waiver, which mostly was approved only if they could show significant theft. After 2012, they just needed to adhere to the transition requirements.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Encryption != copy protection.

More precisely, TiVos don't use the fact that a broadcast is encrypted by the Cableco to determine whether to copy protect that broadcast


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

CCI (and previously also BF) are indicators/mechanisms for Copy Protection.

Encryption of transmission is mainly to prevent theft of service and to ease provisioning.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yes and I was referring to the rule that forces cable companies to set the CCI to "copy freely" for all OTA channels they're rebroadcasting


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

sfhub said:


> CCI (and previously also BF) are indicators/mechanisms for Copy Protection.
> 
> Encryption of transmission is mainly to prevent theft of service and to ease provisioning.


Encryption of locals is to force everyone to rent some kind of box to receive them. "Theft of service" is and always was BS,


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

lpwcomp said:


> "Theft of service" is and always was BS,


Yeah, nobody has ever strung coax between apartments or houses.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> Encryption of locals is to force everyone to rent some kind of box to receive them. "Theft of service" is and always was BS,


Plenty of people use to get CableModem service and get the basic tier for free. One may or many not consider this theft.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

idksmy said:


> Yeah, nobody has ever strung coax between apartments or houses.





sfhub said:


> Plenty of people use to get CableModem service and get the basic tier for free. One may or many not consider this theft.


It was never as extensive a problem as they claimed. And if that were the real issue, they would have never had a real reason to charge for DTAs. Just as there is no justifiable reason for the Comcast "Additional Digital Outlet" fee.


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

lpwcomp said:


> It was never as extensive a problem as they claimed. And if that were the real issue, they would have never had a real reason to charge for DTAs. Just as there is no justifiable reason for the Comcast "Additional Digital Outlet" fee.


Opinion doesn't equal fact.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

idksmy said:


> Opinion doesn't equal fact.


And what "facts" do you have?


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

lpwcomp said:


> And what "facts" do you have?


I have not made any claims, like you have, in your diatribes.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

idksmy said:


> I have not made any claims, like you have, in your diatribes.


What exactly is your problem? Do you own stock in Comcast or have some other reason for defending them? Are you seriously trying to tell me that the cost of a CableCARD is anywhere near the $89.88/Year that they charge?


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

They charge what the market will pay. Don't like the price, don't buy it. Simple. There are options.

Complaining abut it on a discussion forum accomplishes nothing.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

idksmy said:


> They charge what the market will pay. Don't like the price, don't buy it. Simple. There are options.


That would be true if there was real competition but in a lot of places the cable company has a functional monopoly, especially over internet access. (DSL is not a viable option if you want to get your TV using OTT apps)


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> That would be true if there was real competition but in a lot of places the cable company has a functional monopoly, especially over internet access. (DSL is not a viable option if you want to get your TV using OTT apps)


Agreed. The cable company where I live has a monopoly for both cable tv and Internet services. Their internet service monthly cost drops based on what cable tv packages you subscribe to. I have run the numbers and the best I can do is break even by dropping cable and have my monthly internet service increase. People I work with live in developments where both Comcast and Verizon fiber are available. Many of them switch every few years when specials are available from the other carrier. Good for them. I still like where we live and part of that means no choice for cable or Internet. That's life.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Even if there are Internet options ( I use U-Verse for Internet), few people have a viable option if they want to continue to use TiVo and continue to have access to non-broadcast channels. Of course, that will probably be moot in a few years when Comcast switches to IPTV.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> Are you seriously trying to tell me that the cost of a CableCARD is anywhere near the $89.88/Year that they charge?


Comcast is going to tell you that's not the charge for the CableCARD. It's an ADO charge which is charged if you have a CableCARD or a STB and in fact is more for a STB since you have the COE credit when you have a CableCARD. Doesn't mean I like the ADO charge either. 

Note that for our S3's the additional CableCARD charge was down to 80 cents when we stopped using them.

Scott


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Ya there are those who like to hang their hat on the legal meaning of monopoly. In the end it doesn't matter if there is a legally defined monopoly or not what matters is if there are enough actually viable alternatives, so that there is real competition. I am not sure how many viable high speed internet providers it would take for competition to actually tilt the scales in favor of customers but I am certain it isn't just one or two.


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

My guess is there’s really only going to be two competitors; The cable company and, if you are fortunate, the company who strings fiber. Whichever entity built the infrastructure is going to want reimbursed. So, if a third company wants to enter the market, their charges to the customer will have to include what they are charged to use the infrastructure.

Internet and cable began as ‘wants’. For all intents and purposes they are both (certainly Internet) are ‘needs’ and are for all practical purposes utilities just like electricity.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

idksmy said:


> Internet and cable began as 'wants'. For all intents and purposes they are both (certainly Internet) are 'needs' and are for all practical purposes utilities just like electricity.


And yet they've fought tooth and nail to prevent from being regulated as a utility. The last administration was on a path to make that happen, but the current administration has rolled back much of that progress.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

sfhub said:


> Plenty of people use to get CableModem service and get the basic tier for free. One may or many not consider this theft.


There's a reason that Comcast's price for standalone Internet was within a dollar or two of the double play bundle of internet plus limited basic cable.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

pdhenry said:


> There's a reason that Comcast's price for standalone Internet was within a dollar or two of the double play bundle of internet plus limited basic cable.


I am not saying theft is or isn't an issue, but it is unclear this example has much to do with encrypted basic tear vs just plain old marketing.

There are many "bundle" packages from Comcast that are either very close in price to the individual services are even less expensive.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> Comcast is going to tell you that's not the charge for the CableCARD. It's an ADO charge which is charged if you have a CableCARD or a STB and in fact is more for a STB since you have the COE credit when you have a CableCARD. Doesn't mean I like the ADO charge either.
> 
> Note that for our S3's the additional CableCARD charge was down to 80 cents when we stopped using them.
> 
> Scott


I know that they are charging for the ADO and that I get a COE credit for each TiVo (I accounted for the COE in my yearly total and I had to specifically request it each time) Amounts to the same thing, especially since they add the charge the day you pick up the card even if you wait a month to activate it.

The thing is that the ADO itself costs them next to nothing. Most of what they charge is pure profit.


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> And yet they've fought tooth and nail to prevent from being regulated as a utility. The last administration was on a path to make that happen, but the current administration has rolled back much of that progress.


IMO, utilities should be regulated at the state, not federal, level.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

idksmy said:


> My guess is there's really only going to be two competitors; The cable company and, if you are fortunate, the company who strings fiber. Whichever entity built the infrastructure is going to want reimbursed. So, if a third company wants to enter the market, their charges to the customer will have to include what they are charged to use the infrastructure.
> 
> Internet and cable began as 'wants'. For all intents and purposes they are both (certainly Internet) are 'needs' and are for all practical purposes utilities just like electricity.


Part of what 5G is about is the ability to provide home broadband that competes with cable. That should move the number of players in the home broadband market to 3-4 in some places and at least 2 nearly everywhere.

I actually live where there are ZERO broadband providers and have to use either DSL or satellite. Thankfully Frontier upgraded their system enough so that DSL is now usable, 2 years ago I couldn't even stream YouTube/Vudu/etc. in SD in the late afternoon or evening.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

idksmy said:


> IMO, utilities should be regulated at the state, not federal, level.


Why?


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> Why?


The state government is a lot closer to the people being affected by the regulations. In PA, utilities are regulated by the Pennsylvania Utility Commission. Yes, there are PA only utilities, but there are also utilities that span states. The PUC still regulates them in PA.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

That causes two not so good side effects.

Indiana state laws are a great source of guns for Chicago.

Insurance commissioners (usually elected) can specify coverage regulations. That, however, seems to be killed now.

As for utilities, I have stock in PPL. It's major customer is in Europe. It's rates are quite high, but we do have a choice in that area.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

idksmy said:


> IMO, utilities should be regulated at the state, not federal, level.


Good to know.


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