# The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Season 1 - Spoilers



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Premiering March 19th on Disney+


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Great NY Times discussion of the plans for this show:
'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Is Marvel's Latest Double Act


> Whatever the outcome of "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier" holds for him and his character, Mackie, now 42, said he hoped to stay in the superhero game longer and regretted not having jumped into it sooner.
> 
> "I wish I could have been doing this in my 20s," he said. "*It takes a lot of Advil* to do a Marvel show.


I know exactly what he means, on a much smaller and older scale, lol.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

In case you didn't know...



> *Timing of official threads: *
> Do not start the official show thread more than one hour before the Eastern time zone airing.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> In case you didn't know...


Did _not _know, thanks! I suppose I can fix this thread with a title change, then start another when the time comes. How about "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier - March 19th" for this one?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Did _not _know, thanks! I suppose I can fix this thread with a title change, then start another when the time comes. How about "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier - March 19th" for this one?


Unfortunately, a lot of the forum's rules were created in the era of network television, and have never been revisited in the face of changing technologies (and for that matter changing society!). So they're not really a good fit for the way a lot of television is consumed today...e.g., they don't take full-season threads into account.

This particular rule came into existence because a lot of people were starting threads in anticipation of an episode, and then when the episode actually aired somebody would start up another one. And why have a thread to discuss an episode that hasn't aired yet? At the time, that made sense and cut down on duplicate threads, hence the rule. But now, with season threads, that doesn't really matter as much, and there is a tendency to start discussion of a show long before it starts airing (and then convert the thread to a full-season spoiler thread once the show starts).

It would be nice if there were a serious revamping of the posting rules that takes into account developments in television watching habits over the past couple of decades, but I don't get the impression anybody really wants to take that on...


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

I get the impression there is at least one.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dwatt said:


> I get the impression there is at least one.


Not one who has the authority to do it!


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Is it really different? It may not be "aired" but it's still not available to watch


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

jsmeeker said:


> Is it really different? It may not be "aired" but it's still not available to watch


There is some difference when it's a streaming series that's dropped all at once. But Disney and Marvel are releasing these traditional TV style, one episode per week, so it theoretically could be covered in separate threads for each episode. In that case the old rule applies many times over.

A single thread for WandaVision worked well though, as long as I remembered to avoid it until I'd seen the latest episode. These episodes come online in the USA at actual midnight nationwide, not midnight Eastern which would let me watch at 9 Pacific. Daddy needs his Z's.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Thread title changed, by a mod who did not know about that rule either, so now I don't feel so bad lol.


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

I never knew there were officially official threads. But I've been here for < 20 years, so I'm still a noob boob.


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## Hcour (Dec 24, 2007)

This is one of the few superduperhero series I'm actually looking forward to.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

final trailer


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

As someone who's only six movies into the MCU, any thoughts on whether I'll be able to follow this? I enjoyed WV, even though I hadn't seen any of the MCU at the time.

I have no idea how/where/when this falls into the timeline.


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

I am using this list as a guide on what to watch before this show.


Captain America: The First Avenger
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014)
Captain America: Civil War (2016)
Black Panther (2018)
Avengers: Infinity War (2018)
Avengers: Endgame (2020)
Ant-Man and The Wasp (2018)
Spider-Man: Far From Home (2019)
Optional: WandaVision (2021 - Disney+ series)
Found here, but the list above is the 'Spoiler-free' list. The full link goes into details I didn't want to know.

Every Marvel movie to watch before The Falcon and The Winter Soldier releases


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

astrohip said:


> As someone who's only six movies into the MCU, any thoughts on whether I'll be able to follow this? I enjoyed WV, even though I hadn't seen any of the MCU at the time.
> 
> I have no idea how/where/when this falls into the timeline.


It's at the current end of the timeline, as in after _Avengers: Endgame_, and I'm sure there are purists out there who would tell you to wait so it doesn't spoilerize any movies for you. But if you want to jump in, then try to follow what's going on in the _Legends _recaps on these two characters. If _Legends_ works for you in whole or in part, you'll be up-to-speed enough. And personally I would just jump in, because I think this is going to be a very fun ride, and you'll still enjoy those previous movies when you get to them.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Thanks for the feedback (@Donbadabon also).



Pokemon_Dad said:


> But if you want to jump in, then try to follow what's going on in the _Legends _recaps on these two characters.


I have no idea what this means.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

astrohip said:


> I have no idea what this means.


Each _Legends_ episode is a collection of movie clips organized to show the history of one character. They had more to work with for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier than they did for Wanda and Vision, and I think the result is more helpful. See also my reply from the WandaVision thread:


> @astrohip in case you still haven't found it, _Legends _is a separate series elsewhere in your Disney+ show grid. The layout is different on each device, but I've circled _Legends_ here:


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

the problem with the "Legends" recap is it's a recap of all the MCU movies.

If you haven't seen many of them, it may not mean a whole lot


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Each _Legends_ episode is a collection of movie clips organized to show the history of one character. They had more to work with for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier than they did for Wanda and Vision, and I think the result is more helpful. See also my reply from the WandaVision thread:


Cool! I'll check it out.

Thanks.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Cross promotion trailer with X-Box Game Pass. Best part is the little Easter Egg at the end.
















Spoiler



NoobMaster69 was the gamer that Korg was getting mad at and Thor threatened in Endgame. Also, the actor was the Apple Store employee in Captain America: Winter Soldier.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

astrohip said:


> Cool! I'll check it out.
> 
> Thanks.


They are good. Four episodes this time around.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Is this the spoiler thread?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I watched the first episode this morning and liked it a lot.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

Came for discussion, got two pages of rules. Left disappointed.

Liked the first episode tho!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I asked the mods to change it to the spoiler thread. Otherwise, I'll start a new one.


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## Mike Lang (Nov 17, 1999)

Title edited


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Woot. Now we have a spoiler thread. 

Who was the new Captain America at the end? Don't spoil future eps, but that's a new character, right? Not someone we've seen before?


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Turtleboy said:


> I asked the mods to change it to the spoiler thread. Otherwise, I'll start a new one.





Mike Lang said:


> Title edited


This was a spoiler thread, then it was not, now it is again. It's fine.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> Woot. Now we have a spoiler thread.
> 
> Who was the new Captain America at the end? Don't spoil future eps, but that's a new character, right? Not someone we've seen before?


John Walker


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

KungFuCow said:


> John Walker


I'd never heard of him before but he has a lengthy Marvel resume: U.S. Agent - Wikipedia


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I really like the fact that this series is about as big a 180 from Wandavision as possible.

There are some very interesting things going on here that like WV will reverberate throughout the MCU.

Why are those Flagsmashers so strong. How is John Walker going to be Steve Rogers level strong?

-smak-


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

smak said:


> Why are those Flagsmashers so strong. How is John Walker going to be Steve Rogers level strong?


It looks like only one of them was strong. The one that robbed the bank, so he could be a meta. The others were just normal people.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

This is great. This is true MCU. I liked WandaVision alright, but I can see why their original plan was to lead with this one.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> Why are those Flagsmashers so strong. How is John Walker going to be Steve Rogers level strong?


In the comics, there's a long history of the government doing experiments trying to replicate the Super Soldier Serum. Usually, with bad results (both physically and psychologically).


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I forget the ground rules. We can talk comics and previews?

-smak-


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Is Old Steve Rogers still alive? I assume that everyone thinks he never came back from returning the stones, except Sam, Bucky, and a few Avengers.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

smak said:


> I forget the ground rules. We can talk comics and previews?
> 
> -smak-


I think so. But I bet the rules were designed before this sort of thing was a thing. @Rob Helmerichs can you point us towards any written or unwritten rules about this?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Is Old Steve Rogers still alive? I assume that everyone thinks he never came back from returning the stones, except Sam, Bucky, and a few Avengers.


i took a look at that video from Peter Parker's high school in the beginning of Far From Home, and Cap is in the ln Memoriam video tribute. So people think he's dead.

-smak-


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Maybe he died after Endgame. Even with the Super Soldier serum, he’s about 180 years old. Peggy is dead. He gave up the shield to Sam.

He did all he needed to do. Maybe he died.

Or went back to his timeline if he’s from a different timeline.

Or went to the moon.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Maybe he died after Endgame. Even with the Super Soldier serum, he's about 180 years old. Peggy is dead. He gave up the shield to Sam.
> 
> He did all he needed to do. Maybe he died.
> 
> ...


I don't think you would count the years under ice as any kind of living years. So he's really probably around 100.

I always wondered where exactly he went back to get back together with Peggy. When I saw the movie, I was thinking that he did it in the 70's, when he dropped back off the Space Stone, but I think he really probably went back to the 40's

-smak-


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I don't think Steve is really dead. He as sitting on a bench not too long before this show is set.

anyway. new cap.. uknown to me. 

I've been told now who he is.. but OK.. This guy I guess is the "Agatha Harkness" of this show.. 


Sam and Bucky didn't even reunite in this episode.. I thought they would at the very end.. But nope.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> I think so. But I bet the rules were designed before this sort of thing was a thing. @Rob Helmerichs can you point us towards any written or unwritten rules about this?


The trailer talk was when this was a pre-release discussion thread. Comics talk I guess is a bit grey, since the show isn't based on any of the comics...I figured the Super-Soldier Serum was an interesting potential back-drop, but there's no way of knowing if it will ever turn out to be relevant.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The trailer talk was when this was a pre-release discussion thread. Comics talk I guess is a bit grey, since the show isn't based on any of the comics...I figured the Super-Soldier Serum was an interesting potential back-drop, but there's no way of knowing if it will ever turn out to be relevant.


But in the comics, the Super Soldier serum came to be called something else which make it's possible re-introduction into the MCU at this time, very interesting.

-smak-


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

smak said:


> I always wondered where exactly he went back to get back together with Peggy. When I saw the movie, I was thinking that he did it in the 70's, when he dropped back off the Space Stone, but I think he really probably went back to the 40's


The late Forties. In the Steve and Peggy dancing scene not only are they playing a Forties record, but as we approached the house (I can't find video of this, but I remember it), we saw a Forties vintage car.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The trailer talk was when this was a pre-release discussion thread. Comics talk I guess is a bit grey, since the show isn't based on any of the comics...I figured the Super-Soldier Serum was an interesting potential back-drop, but there's no way of knowing if it will ever turn out to be relevant.


That is useful background regardless. I had forgotten what they called it, for one thing.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

I liked it, probably even more than I thought I would. It will be interesting to see if they keep up both the quality, and the budget, that produced the opening scenes - as they were absolutely on the same level as any current MCU movie.

Although now I'm wondering, is it possible to wingsuite yourself into the side of a aircraft like that? Can advanced wingsuiteers do that in real life? That was a pretty damn slick move. I'd imagine it would only be possible with fixed wing aircraft, because attempting it near a helicopter would be like diving into a blender and hoping you missed...


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

I enjoyed it; nice introductory episode. I did find it a little more risqué compared to typical Marvel movies. Some swearing, gun violence with actual deaths, and using the term “White folks.” Seemed more real life I guess. Sam using his wings as shields was cool to see. He seemed more “super.” Oh yeah, and Bucky having a flip phone, that was great.

New Captain America looks like a tool. Guessing he had some experimentation too but hopefully won’t become “Cap.” Zemo being in the Legends series means he must be in this show too. Interesting


In WV thread there was talk about a Stark stipen so Vis could afford the house. I’m guessing that is not true based on this episode. On second thought they were on the run though so maybe that is a difference.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

you can't have a talk about anything marvel without comic talk. it's a core staple of the coversations here


kdmorse said:


> I liked it, probably even more than I thought I would. It will be interesting to see if they keep up both the quality, and the budget, that produced the opening scenes - as they were absolutely on the same level as any current MCU movie.
> .


I had the exact observation. I mean, that opening.. It was. Well.. CINEMATIC. 
If I didn't know, I would have thought I was watching some actual MCU theatrical release.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Not that it’s particularly relevant, but several scenes were shot at my dad’s work so he saw them filming.


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## Bill Reeves (Jul 18, 2002)

It was a better first episode than WandaVision, but it left a lot of questions. I guess that's good, but this may come out better as a binged movie-like show than individual episodes. After the first two episodes of WandaVision, my wife didn't catch the next one (I was watching each episode as it came out), and then we binged the whole thing after it was all released and it was much better that way. I could see this show coming out as a four hour MCU movie, kind of a world-spanning buddy adventure flick.

Meanwhile, can we talk about the social effects of "The Blip" and the return? WandaVision supposedly took place a few weeks after the return, and this show takes place a few months after the return. The social impact of removing half of the world's population for five years and then returning them would be a bigger impact than anything in human history so far - I don't think life would be at all "normal" after a few billion people reappeared. Housing shortages and food riots and mass starvation - the world's infrastructure is currently set up to feed X billion people (not perfectly) - if half of the people disappear, a lot of the surplus food would go to waste but over time the infrastructure would shrink to feed X/2 billion people. And then when the other half of the population reappears (aside from the measurable percentage who die shortly after they return, for example, the hundreds of thousands who were in airplanes or in cars moving 50+ MPH on the highway when they got blipped), the infrastructure can't immediately go back to feeding X billion people. Hence, refugee camps and food riots and such. Anyways, maybe this isn't the thread for that discussion.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Bill Reeves said:


> *Meanwhile, can we talk about the social effects of "The Blip" and the return? *


that's a whole series right there. Would be interesting to see them do it.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Random User 7 said:


> In WV thread there was talk about a Stark stipen so Vis could afford the house. I'm guessing that is not true based on this episode. On second thought they were on the run though so maybe that is a difference.


Well, Sam was not only on "the other side", he was gone for five years.

So even if there was a stipend for active Avengers, Sam wouldn't have gotten one for about seven years.

Took me a moment to recognize Batroc.
Nice to see Rhodey too.

There was a Captain America foe in the comics called Flag Smasher who was something of an anarchist but I suspect that this part is really going to lean on another Mark Gruenwald arc during his run on Captain America.

My, my, my, Bucky is certainly a nice mass of guilt, isn't he now?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I didn’t realize it, but the head of the LAF is Georges Batroc, who was in the Winter Soldier movie.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

realityboy said:


> Not that it's particularly relevant, but several scenes were shot at my dad's work so he saw them filming.


Where? In Georgia?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Another thing that I missed is that Bucky killed that guy’s son.


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## Bill Reeves (Jul 18, 2002)

Batroc the Leaper jumped out at me. A few weeks ago, my kid for his French class was doing a report on French language comics (bande dessinée)- I was thinking Tintin and Asterix and such, but he included Batroc the Leaper, because in one of the Spider-Man cartoons he watched, Batroc was a second string bad guy, the kind of guy who showed up when the heroes needed to kick someone's butt. I don't think he got a very good grade on his report for French class.

But Batroc was a badass in the Winter Soldier movie. The actor playing him was a MMA star, and is French Canadian, so the moves and the accent are legit.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Where? In Georgia?


Yep. At a power plant.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> Another thing that I missed is that Bucky killed that guy's son.


When the guy was telling Bucky about his son in the bar, it looked like Bucky was thinking it may have been the same guy he killed. I'm pretty sure he went to his apartment to find out and seeing the memorial confirmed it for him.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

NJChris said:


> When the guy was telling Bucky about his son in the bar, it looked like Bucky was thinking it may have been the same guy he killed. I'm pretty sure he went to his apartment to find out and seeing the memorial confirmed it for him.


Most definitely telegraphed (with a sledgehammer) in the bar.

Although I did initially consider that he was a relative of Jim Morita.


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## Bill Reeves (Jul 18, 2002)

NJChris said:


> When the guy was telling Bucky about his son in the bar, it looked like Bucky was thinking it may have been the same guy he killed. I'm pretty sure he went to his apartment to find out and seeing the memorial confirmed it for him.


Bucky had the old guy's name on his list of people to make amends to. My interpretation is that he knew that the old guy was the father of the guy he had killed in the nightmare / flashback, and he had gotten close to the old guy over time - he knew the old guy well enough to intervene in the trash dispute between the old guy and Unique (Monique with a U for uniqueness - was it Beverly Hills Cop they borrowed that from?) - but he hadn't worked up the nerve to actually make amends with the old guy. He tried again after his "date" but still couldn't do it. That's my guess.


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## Bill Reeves (Jul 18, 2002)

Anyways, I watched it again with my wife and it held up better the second viewing. I may not have been paying enough attention the first time. And it looked like Sam and his sister and her family were making a bunch of extra meals which could have been intended for the homeless and hungry masses in my theoretical interpretation of the aftereffects of the blip and the return.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> that's a whole series right there. Would be interesting to see them do it.


BLIP SHOW! BLIP SHOW! BLIP SHOW!

-smak-


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Bill Reeves said:


> Bucky had the old guy's name on his list of people to make amends to. My interpretation is that he knew that the old guy was the father of the guy he had killed in the nightmare / flashback, and he had gotten close to the old guy over time - he knew the old guy well enough to intervene in the trash dispute between the old guy and Unique (Monique with a U for uniqueness - was it Beverly Hills Cop they borrowed that from?) - but he hadn't worked up the nerve to actually make amends with the old guy. He tried again after his "date" but still couldn't do it. That's my guess.


I think spending time with an old man who's probably alone is his version of amends.

I don't think he had to say that while he was controlled by Hydra he killed his son.

-smak-


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> I think spending time with an old man who's probably alone is his version of amends.
> 
> I don't think he had to say that while he was controlled by Hydra he killed his son.


But he knew the guy was especially devastated about not knowing how his son died. I think Bucky was working his way up to telling him.


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

The opening action scene was amazing and top notch movie quality. This got me to thinking of how much of a value D+ is compared to other streaming services.

Have you seen this Phase 4 graphic? Not really a spoiler since it's just show names.


Spoiler: Phase 4 Titles












https://i.redd.it/8c3f4d9x31o61.png


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Color me impressed, the opening scene was impressive and I liked where they were going with the various story lines.
However I *REALLY* wanted Jane Lynch as the therapist, her work in Two and a Half Men as the therapist was awesome.

It also got me to rewatch the movie which is still one of my top 3 in the MCU.


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## mlsnyc (Dec 3, 2009)

Bill Reeves said:


> Bucky had the old guy's name on his list of people to make amends to. My interpretation is that he knew that the old guy was the father of the guy he had killed in the nightmare / flashback, and he had gotten close to the old guy over time - he knew the old guy well enough to intervene in the trash dispute between the old guy and Unique (Monique with a U for uniqueness - was it Beverly Hills Cop they borrowed that from?) - but he hadn't worked up the nerve to actually make amends with the old guy. He tried again after his "date" but still couldn't do it. That's my guess.


At first I had thought the grouchy trash can guy was an old friend of Bucky's. But then when they were at the restaurant and the guy started talking about his son being killed because wrong place wrong time, I first thought, wow too much of a coincidence - Bucky murdered the son of one of his army buddies who happened to be in the same hotel as someone he was sent to assassinate??? Then later I realized Bucky must've been trying to atone for his guilt and wound up bonding with the man. And then we were shown the name on Bucky's list, which implies that's what happened.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> However I *REALLY* wanted Jane Lynch as the therapist, her work in Two and a Half Men as the therapist was awesome.


When I first saw her, I thought it was Edie Falco...


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

MikeekiM said:


> When I first saw her, I thought it was Edie Falco...


I thought is was Lisa Edelstein, but I am terrible at remembering actors...


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

dianebrat said:


> It also got me to rewatch the movie which is still one of my top 3 in the MCU.


Which movie?


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

dianebrat said:


> However I *REALLY* wanted Jane Lynch as the therapist, her work in Two and a Half Men as the therapist was awesome.





MikeekiM said:


> When I first saw her, I thought it was Edie Falco...





eddyj said:


> I thought is was Lisa Edelstein, but I am terrible at remembering actors...


Amy Aquino has been great as an LAPD lieutenant in 60 episodes of Bosch.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I’m kind of surprised no one recognizes Bucky. He was #1 on the world’s most wanted list and accused of bombing a U.N. summit so his face must have been plastered on TV at the time. Granted that would have been about 7 years prior, but to half the world it was only 2 years ago.


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

morac said:


> I'm kind of surprised no one recognizes Bucky. He was #1 on the world's most wanted list and accused of bombing a U.N. summit so his face must have been plastered on TV at the time. Granted that would have been about 7 years prior, but to half the world it was only 2 years ago.


Short hair now. Completely unrecognizable.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

Bill Reeves said:


> Bucky had the old guy's name on his list of people to make amends to. My interpretation is that he knew that the old guy was the father of the guy he had killed in the nightmare / flashback, and he had gotten close to the old guy over time - he knew the old guy well enough to intervene in the trash dispute between the old guy and Unique (Monique with a U for uniqueness - was it Beverly Hills Cop they borrowed that from?) - but he hadn't worked up the nerve to actually make amends with the old guy. He tried again after his "date" but still couldn't do it. That's my guess.


Ahh, I missed the name on the list.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

There are some YouTube reviews out there that go through every name on the list, and also show what the text in the Cap Smithsonian exhibit says, along with all of those names too. Most of them are Marvel staffers.  But a few are connected to the show.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Random User 7 said:


> Which movie?


Captain America, The Winter Soldier


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I completely missed the connection that Bucky killed the old man's son. Is the old man supposed to be Jim Morita from his Howling Commandos days?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> I completely missed the connection that Bucky killed the old man's son. Is the old man supposed to be Jim Morita from his Howling Commandos days?


No, he's just some guy. His only prior connection to Bucky was his son.


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

Has anyone compiled any of the "disappearing text/etc" that are overwritten by production staff during the closing credits? I don't know if it's even readable... my TV doesn't show it very well.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

martinp13 said:


> Has anyone compiled any of the "disappearing text/etc" that are overwritten by production staff during the closing credits? I don't know if it's even readable... my TV doesn't show it very well.


I single framed through a couple so I had enough to be google-worthy and find someone else's list:

(Spoiler tagged not because it's a spoiler, but because of how TCF handles reddit links)



Spoiler: Redit





__
https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/m8npkp




Some of em I could confirm knowing what I was looking for, some of them not so much. At least one of them might as well have been written in the black speech of Mordor for all I could tell.


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)




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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

kdmorse said:


> I single framed through a couple so I had enough to be google-worthy and find someone else's list:
> 
> (Spoiler tagged not because it's a spoiler, but because of how TCF handles reddit links)
> 
> ...


Fascinating. I saw some of the Winter Soldier activation words so I knew some of it was relevant. Thank you for the link.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Finally got a chance to watch the first episode this morning. I was not disappointed. The opening action scenes with the Falcon were topnotch. I was surprised to see Bucky in therapy since he doesn't seem like he would have done that voluntarily. I assume someone pointed him in that direction to help ease his guilt. I got the connection between the old man and Bucky as soon as I saw the photo on the mantle at the old man's apartment. The son was the young guy fumbling with his keys trying to get into his room at the hotel when the Winter Soldier was taking out his targets. I noticed he still had the red star on his arm and then realized it was a flashback. I didn't realize the guy with the Flag Smashers was Batroc until I read it here. I recall him being one of Captain America's foes in the silver age comics. It adds up because the guys in the military transport that kidnapped the U.S. soldier were all speaking French so they must have been affiliated with him.

No doubt we'll be seeing Zemo and Sharon Carter at some point since the Legends series seems to lead into the current Marvel series on Disney. Cap was an old man at the end of Endgame so they probably just "disappeared" him from public life so he could live out the rest of his days in peace. It was probably easier than trying to explain how he went back in time and decided to stay in the 40's. I assume he must have essentially retired from being Captain America when he returned from the 40's since that would have really screwed up history as we know it. It would have been difficult to explain why there were two identical Captain Americas running around at the same time, although one would have aged normally while the other one was still quite young. I may have to go back and watch the scene where Steve Rogers visits Peggy Carter in the hospital and pay attention to the dialog between them since she was seeing the young Steve Rogers and she had lived out the rest of her days with the older one.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Finally got a chance to watch the first episode this morning. I was not disappointed. The opening action scenes with the Falcon were topnotch. I was surprised to see Bucky in therapy since he doesn't seem like he would have done that voluntarily. I assume someone pointed him in that direction to help ease his guilt.


Didn't she say that he had to be there? I got the impression it was part of the deal for him being, like, not in prison for the rest of his life.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I thought this was quite good. I did like that they are discussing the return more and what kind of problems it would bring. I did think it was a little unrealistic that Falcon is so broke. Sure, I have no problem believing that his fame doesn't get him a loan but surely Pepper or Happy would just give him a million or so, no questions asked.

Yes, Bucky is in court-mandated therapy. I knew that the murdered guy was the son as soon as the father said that he had a son that was killed, while they were in the bar. Bucky has been making amends and he made the mistake of getting to know the father before he admitted what he'd done, and now the father seems to be his only friend/acquaintance in the world and he can't do it. When he was on the date and his date was saying how terrible it was that the father didn't know what happened to his son he got a new resolve to tell him and left immediately but when he got to the apartment and saw the shrine he chickened out again and couldn't do it.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Oh... unfortunately another occurrence of one of my least favorite plot tropes: good guy has a gun on the bad guy, then walks right up to him so the gun is within easy reach of the bad guy, with utterly predictable consequences. Yeesh. How lazy to writers have to be, it's not like it would take any great mental feat to come up with a way of letting the bad guy escape that DOESN'T require a trained agent to be a complete idiot, especially in a situation like this where they're in the middle of, basically, a riot.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Didn't she say that he had to be there? I got the impression it was part of the deal for him being, like, not in prison for the rest of his life.


Yeah... Like sort of a condition of being given a pardon.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

Watched the first episode this morning and really enjoyed it. Would've been very surprised otherwise. Anyway, looks like this will be good.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I am just waiting for Agent 13 to show up


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Didn't she say that he had to be there? I got the impression it was part of the deal for him being, like, not in prison for the rest of his life.


OK, that makes sense. I missed that part about him having to be there.



madscientist said:


> I thought this was quite good. I did like that they are discussing the return more and what kind of problems it would bring. I did think it was a little unrealistic that Falcon is so broke. Sure, I have no problem believing that his fame doesn't get him a loan but surely Pepper or Happy would just give him a million or so, no questions asked.


I don't think it was unrealistic at all. Banks don't lend people money based on their fame. They do it based on their credit rating and what they can put up as collateral. Unless Tony Stark had been paying the Avengers a salary they were pretty much doing everything pro bono. After all, heroes don't ask for rewards.

This is the kind of thing that has always set Marvel apart from the competition, at least back when they started back up in the 60's. Their characters were real people with real problems. They had to deal with paying bills and making a living along with being a superhero. They weren't all multi-millionaires with deep pockets. I suppose they could have been getting a military salary when they did jobs for the government, but, aside from Stark, they basically had no other source of income.


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

mr.unnatural said:


> Finally got a chance to watch the first episode this morning. I was not disappointed. The opening action scenes with the Falcon were topnotch. I was surprised to see Bucky in therapy since he doesn't seem like he would have done that voluntarily. I assume someone pointed him in that direction to help ease his guilt. I got the connection between the old man and Bucky as soon as I saw the photo on the mantle at the old man's apartment. The son was the young guy fumbling with his keys trying to get into his room at the hotel when the Winter Soldier was taking out his targets. I noticed he still had the red star on his arm and then realized it was a flashback. I didn't realize the guy with the Flag Smashers was Batroc until I read it here. I recall him being one of Captain America's foes in the silver age comics. It adds up because the guys in the military transport that kidnapped the U.S. soldier were all speaking French so they must have been affiliated with him.
> 
> No doubt we'll be seeing Zemo and Sharon Carter at some point since the Legends series seems to lead into the current Marvel series on Disney. Cap was an old man at the end of Endgame so they probably just "disappeared" him from public life so he could live out the rest of his days in peace. It was probably easier than trying to explain how he went back in time and decided to stay in the 40's. I assume he must have essentially retired from being Captain America when he returned from the 40's since that would have really screwed up history as we know it. It would have been difficult to explain why there were two identical Captain Americas running around at the same time, although one would have aged normally while the other one was still quite young. I may have to go back and watch the scene where Steve Rogers visits Peggy Carter in the hospital and pay attention to the dialog between them since she was seeing the young Steve Rogers and she had lived out the rest of her days with the older one.


He went under the ice in 45 so there would only be one Cap.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't think it was unrealistic at all. Banks don't lend people money based on their fame. They do it based on their credit rating and what they can put up as collateral.


Yes, that's what I said.



mr.unnatural said:


> Unless Tony Stark had been paying the Avengers a salary they were pretty much doing everything pro bono. After all, heroes don't ask for rewards.


 What I said was unrealistic is that Pepper and Happy weren't paying enough attention to the returned heroes to realize which ones were in trouble financially and helping them out. Yes, probably they wouldn't be paying a stipend to all heroes all the time; that's the government's role, if anyone's, but for the heroes that were blipped and came back after 5 years, then fought Thanos, Stark Industries has MORE than enough resources to make sure that they and their families have a stable financial footing.

Heck, I would have assumed that they were checking up on the left-behind families during the blip as well.

I don't think either the returned heroes nor their families would turn down help like that.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Sam could ask Pepper or Happy for money, sure. But he’s too proud.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> I didn't realize the guy with the Flag Smashers was Batroc until I read it here. I recall him being one of Captain America's foes in the silver age comics. It adds up because the guys in the military transport that kidnapped the U.S. soldier were all speaking French so they must have been affiliated with him.


Batroc wasn't with the Flag Smashers. He was with that other group trying to kidnap the US military guy in the opening airborne chase sequence.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

madscientist said:


> What I said was unrealistic is that Pepper and Happy weren't paying enough attention to the returned heroes to realize which ones were in trouble financially and helping them out. Yes, probably they wouldn't be paying a stipend to all heroes all the time; that's the government's role, if anyone's, but for the heroes that were blipped and came back after 5 years, then fought Thanos, Stark Industries has MORE than enough resources to make sure that they and their families have a stable financial footing.
> 
> Heck, I would have assumed that they were checking up on the left-behind families during the blip as well.
> 
> I don't think either the returned heroes nor their families would turn down help like that.


I have no doubt that there was a severe global economic downturn after Thanos snapped half the population away and honestly, I'm dubious that things would have rebounded that much in the five years afterward.
(See Scott Lang's walk home after he was ejected from the Quantum Tunnel and the storage depot. A lot of things in disrepair and abandoned.)

Stark Industries would have taken a big financial hit alone and I don't know how much help they could have given in the first place.
(Plus Tony and Pepper moved out to the country to raise Morgan. And yes, Spider-Man: Far From Home seemed to gloss over all of this with the amount of support Happy was giving Peter.)

Then you factor in all these people suddenly reappearing and I would find it difficult to believe that the economy didn't take another dump due to the sheer amount of chaos that would have caused.
(How do you go back to old job when it's been given to someone else, assuming that your old employer is even still in business?)

As I stated in the Wandavision thread, the comics had the Avengers team expenses and member stipends paid for by the Maria Stark Foundation, which was independent of Stark Industries and Tony's personal finances.
(And apparently had Getty Foundation type of money available to it.)

But I've seen nothing similar in the MCU so far.

That said, Sam could probably get a loan through Pepper or Happy if he was willing to ask.
Which he doesn't seem to be at this point.

Maybe a Louisiana Rambeau will talk some sense into him.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Random User 7 said:


> He went under the ice in 45 so there would only be one Cap.


True, but do we know exactly what point in time he returned to the 40's? There could have been an overlap that we aren't aware of.



morac said:


> Batroc wasn't with the Flag Smashers. He was with that other group trying to kidnap the US military guy in the opening airborne chase sequence.


I guess I got my radical groups confused. For some reason I was thinking the group with Batroc were the Flag Smashers. I should probably go back and re-watch the episode again.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think Batroc's group were mercenaries, not radicals...


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think Batroc's group were mercenaries, not radicals...


Yeah, the young military guy said something to that effect, that the LAF(?) are just opportunists, which is why he's more worried about the other group.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I like it alot. Love these shows....my son and I watch them numerous times.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

Turtleboy said:


> Is Old Steve Rogers still alive? I assume that everyone thinks he never came back from returning the stones, except Sam, Bucky, and a few Avengers.


Just wait until "the Youth Serum" comes out. Then we have Cap back!! The new Captain was on a show where he ran a surf store at the beach. Lodge 49 maybe? Anyway he seems to be getting a lot of work as an actor and is an up and comer...as they say


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I have no doubt that there was a severe global economic downturn after Thanos snapped half the population away and honestly, I'm dubious that things would have rebounded that much in the five years afterward.
> (See Scott Lang's walk home after he was ejected from the Quantum Tunnel and the storage depot. A lot of things in disrepair and abandoned.)
> 
> Stark Industries would have taken a big financial hit alone and I don't know how much help they could have given in the first place.
> ...


Remember when a worldwide pandemic happened in 2020 & 2021, and most of the worlds billionaires made 10's of billions of dollars.

No reason to think all the MCU billionaires wouldn't have done the same.

-smak-


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

People still needed staples and other things in this reality.

It's different when half your potential market suddenly disappears.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> People still needed staples and other things in this reality.
> 
> It's different when half your potential market suddenly disappears.


??? How would that be a problem? You could go to Office Max and get all the staples you need! Especially since half the people who would normally buy them are gone! They'd probably be on sale!

Geez, sometimes you just make no sense whatsoever...


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ??? How would that be a problem? You could go to Office Max and get all the staples you need! Especially since half the people who would normally buy them are gone! They'd probably be on sale!
> 
> Geez, sometimes you just make no sense whatsoever...


Wait, what are you talking about?
You seem to be a tad confused.

I buy my staples at Staples.
Duh.


----------



## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

NJChris said:


> When the guy was telling Bucky about his son in the bar, it looked like Bucky was thinking it may have been the same guy he killed. I'm pretty sure he went to his apartment to find out and seeing the memorial confirmed it for him.


I read this would also be a deep dive into Bucky's PTSD. So far it has made an impression on me; more than any other PTSD storyline.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Amy Aquino has been great as an LAPD lieutenant in 60 episodes of Bosch.


Bosch rules!


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

It's been a little slow, but I think it'll pick up next week.

I like that they are interacting with the real world more than most other marvel properties.

I see this not ending well for John Walker. He's already really full of himself after how many days?

That's a lot of people with super soldier serum. Who's providing it, and why? I doubt the flag smasher agenda is the same as their agenda.

-smak-


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

The actor playing Walker looks more appropriate for the character when not wearing the mask then when wearing it. When wearing the mask he looks like the guy from Up.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

The actor, Wyatt Russell, is the son of Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

He looks very different with a shave and a haircut compared to the shaggy surfer dude he played on Lodge 49. There were a couple of times in the episode where I caught a glimpse of Kurt Russell in his features.


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

I thought that was a very productive two-person therapy session.  While watching this show I think it's moving slowly, but when it's over I think back and they really cover a lot of ground.

Do we know what's in the boxes? Is it more super-soldier serum? Someone mentioned medicine/vaccine, and that confused me.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

martinp13 said:


> I thought that was a very productive two-person therapy session.


It walked the line between excruciating and hilarious. While, as you say, being productive at the same time! Impressive writing and acting.


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

I guess "slow" is relative. It's a series, so yeah the buildup is going to be longer than for a movie, but it seemed well paced to me.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

smak said:


> That's a lot of people with super soldier serum. Who's providing it, and why? I doubt the flag smasher agenda is the same as their agenda.
> 
> -smak-


Hydra?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> Hydra?


Sounds like it's Power Broker.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Because of Captain America's long history in the comic, and the amount of comics he's been in, this series so far, almost every character is from the comics.

Maybe not the therapist, but almost everybody else we've come across was.

-smak-


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

hapster85 said:


> I guess "slow" is relative. It's a series, so yeah the buildup is going to be longer than for a movie, but it seemed well paced to me.


It can't go too slow, when ep 3 airs next week it's half over!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

They are totally setting up Bucky to take on the shield at the end of this.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> Hydra?





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sounds like it's Power Broker.


It was definitely stated that the Power Broker was after Karli and her flag smashers.

Which is interesting because


Spoiler: from Jessica Jones



we've already seen one version of the Power Broker, aka Dr. Karl Malus in Season 2 of Jessica Jones.



I'm trying to figure out if "Cap" Walker and Battle Star are powered or not.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

JYoung said:


> I'm trying to figure out if "Cap" Walker and Battle Star are powered or not.


Didn't Walker state that he didn't have powers? I have to admit that I was a surprised and a bit upset that he had such impressive shield wielding skills. He's not my Captain America!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Didn't Walker state that he didn't have powers? I have to admit that I was a surprised and a bit upset that he had such impressive shield wielding skills. He's not my Captain America!


Yeah, he claims he doesn't have powers, but he sure displays them! 

My suspicion is that he (and his partner) will become Power Broker clients...


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Didn't Walker state that he didn't have powers? I have to admit that I was a surprised and a bit upset that he had such impressive shield wielding skills. He's not my Captain America!


It was stated he has above average intelligence, speed and strength, but he doesn't have powers.

I'm a bit confused though as from what I've read, Bucky doesn't have powers either. He just has a metal arm. I'm not sure why he's being lumped in with Isaiah as being a super soldier.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Bucky had Russian super soldier serum similar to the other people that Zemo killed in the cryo tubes in Civil War


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, he claims he doesn't have powers, but he sure displays them!
> 
> My suspicion is that he (and his partner) will become Power Broker clients...


Exactly. He might have been lying.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> Exactly. He might have been lying.


I suspect he's telling the truth, and that his miraculous shield-wielding powers are just that...miraculous. And that Falc and Buck will show Not-Cap and Not-Buck up big-time, and they will start to feel power-envy. Which will send them to the Power Broker.

Or something like that.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

I’m wondering if Falcon will end up getting a dose of whatever made them super and take up the shield like Steve wanted by the end of the series.

I find it hard to believe that John Walker would be able to wield the shield that well with no enhancement, even if he was strong enough to throw the shield, catching it would be damaging to unenhanced physiology - just like taking a beating from 3 super soldiers on top of an 18wheeler


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

zordude said:


> Bucky had Russian super soldier serum similar to the other people that Zemo killed in the cryo tubes in Civil War


That's what gave him his longevity too, right?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

eddyj said:


> That's what gave him his longevity too, right?


Well they also kept him frozen until they needed him.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

zordude said:


> I find it hard to believe that John Walker would be able to wield the shield that well with no enhancement, even if he was strong enough to throw the shield, catching it would be damaging to unenhanced physiology - just like taking a beating from 3 super soldiers on top of an 18wheeler


Yeah.

Hence my earlier comment about him lying.


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

From what we've seen so far, I don't think John Walker is a bad guy (yet). Cocky a-hole? Oh yeah. It almost seems like Lemar is more John's "handler" than sidekick/partner. Making sure John marches down the path that the entity who chose him wants him to take.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

morac said:


> It was stated he has above average intelligence, speed and strength, but he doesn't have powers.


The exact quote was "off the charts" speed, strength, and intelligence.
Which makes me go "Hmmmmmm....."

But technically, Steve Rogers didn't have "superhuman" abilities.
The comics describe the super soldier serum as getting his body to the "peak of human potential".
So a non treated human could be as strong as Steve, with massive amounts of training.
Or as fast, or agile.
Theoretically.
But Cap has them all in one package.
(Steve would also train constantly. How else do you think he got so good at shield throwing?)


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

JYoung said:


> The exact quote was "off the charts" speed, strength, and intelligence.
> Which makes me go "Hmmmmmm....."
> 
> But technically, Steve Rogers didn't have "superhuman" abilities.
> ...


While that may be the case in the comics, within the context of the MCU, Steve Rogers has been shown to be considerably stronger than "the peak of human potential". The rooftop helicopter scene springs to mind. (I forget which movie that was.)


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Civil War.
And that's probably the "highest" MCU Steve can go.
Certainly he's been "enhanced". For example, Batman trains just as hard as Steve but could never match him physically.

But the movies also play fast and loose with how well non enhanced humans can do.
People like Hawkeye and Black Widow can be knocked into a wall and still get back up pretty quickly.

(Also Batroc thought that he could beat Steve in hand to hand if Steve just put down the shield. But Steve had already figured out how to beat Batroc at that point.)


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> The comics describe the super soldier serum as getting his body to the "peak of human potential".


I'm pretty sure that hasn't been the case for a very long time. He has been described as having super-strength for as long as I've been reading comics (since the early 70s)...

I mean, certainly not in Thor or Hulk territory, but greater than an unaltered human.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm pretty sure that hasn't been the case for a very long time. He has been described as having super-strength for as long as I've been reading comics (since the early 70s)...
> 
> I mean, certainly not in Thor or Hulk territory, but greater than an unaltered human.


The mid 1980s Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe disagrees with you.










(I think though that the editors have said that the line for "superhuman strength" is just above Captain America.)


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> The mid 1980s Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe disagrees with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But I don't think that's how the character is generally written. E.g., when Sam became Cap they made a big deal about him NOT having super-strength, and having the armor and wings to compensate.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But I don't think that's how the character is generally written. E.g., when Sam became Cap they made a big deal about him NOT having super-strength, and having the armor and wings to compensate.


Sure but that was relatively recently and Sam didn't have the Super Soldier Serum.
I read quite a bit of Captain America from the late 1970s books to about the early to mid 1990s book and he was pretty consistently portrayed within the Marvel Handbook guidelines.
And we were told that the writers were supposed to be following those guidelines.
In fact, in the storyline where John Walker was first introduced


Spoiler: comics spoilers



Walker had been augmented by the Power Broker and was significantly stronger than Steve. And Steve debated the question of whether or not he should get stronger.



Generally speaking while Steve was stronger and faster than Batroc, he wasn't stronger and faster than Spider-Man.
(And even in Civil War, Steve didn't outfight Peter via brute force.)
(I do get the impression that they played more fast and loose with this starting in the Liefeld years. Certainly the Hulk and Thor were much stronger in the 21st Century than in the previous one.)

I suspect that the editors didn't want to fall into the "Superman trap" with Captain America with being "too strong" and "not relatable".

_Edited to add:_ You may be partially right though. I seem to recall reading that shortly after Cap came out of the ice, he did display what would everyone would agree upon be "significant super strength".
Later books would claim he actually did have super strength during this time period but lost it as his body adjusted to being out of ice.
Or something like that. (I'm fuzzy on the details.)

I'm wondering if that was a retro con due to Stan Lee's sloppy writing (ala Cap's indestructible shield being casually destroyed in an Avengers story and it was retro conned that it was a Tony Stark prototype that had been destroyed).


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Ok, I did some digging and Steve did have true super strength in the early 1970s due to being poisoned by Viper.
But it wore off.
(Captain America #158 to Captain America #193. Early 1972 to early 1976 which is shortly before I started reading his books. And no Steve Englehart, I'm not sure that makes sense.)

Source:
Does Captain America have superpowers?

(Which is part of a larger discussion of Captain America's powers.)


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

The one thing I've never understood about Falcon becoming Captain America in the comics is why? He's Falcon. Why does one Superhero with powers need to be another Superhero with powers?

I know that Captain America means a lot to a lot of people, but I'm not saying don't have a Captain America, I'm just wondering why you need to take an already proven hero, and turn him into another one, but still basically being Falcon.

Seems like you lose a superhero that way. And sure they added another Falcon, but he could have been a new hero..

-smak-


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> I know that Captain America means a lot to a lot of people, but I'm not saying don't have a Captain America, I'm just wondering why you need to take an already proven hero, and turn him into another one, but still basically being Falcon.


Well, that's kinda like making somebody who's never played baseball before the MVP...


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

smak said:


> The one thing I've never understood about Falcon becoming Captain America in the comics is why? He's Falcon. Why does one Superhero with powers need to be another Superhero with powers?
> 
> I know that Captain America means a lot to a lot of people, but I'm not saying don't have a Captain America, I'm just wondering why you need to take an already proven hero, and turn him into another one, but still basically being Falcon.
> 
> ...


Exactly, and that's why Bucky will become Captain America at the end of this story arc.


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

madscientist said:


> I thought this was quite good. I did like that they are discussing the return more and what kind of problems it would bring. I did think it was a little unrealistic that Falcon is so broke. Sure, I have no problem believing that his fame doesn't get him a loan but surely Pepper or Happy would just give him a million or so, no questions asked.


Yeah, being a broke Avenger doesn't seem possible. At least with a billionaire as a team mate. Just out of curiosity, I looked up various estimates of Tony Stark's net worth and found it amazingly low compared to real life billionaires like Bezos and Musk.

I'm liking the series so far. Though some of the scenes are a bit head scratching like the episode 2 ending where one of the Flag Smashers sacrificed himself to delay the Power Broker's men. If you're not bullet-proof, running into a hail of machine gun fire doesn't seem like the brightest idea in the world.


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

martinp13 said:


> I thought that was a very productive two-person therapy session.  While watching this show I think it's moving slowly, but when it's over I think back and they really cover a lot of ground.
> 
> Do we know what's in the boxes? Is it more super-soldier serum? Someone mentioned medicine/vaccine, and that confused me.


It seems that they are making the Flag Smashers to be misunderstood rebels. They don't like how the GRC is handling things so they are trying to incite a rebellion. They stole medicine to deliver to refugee camps that were setup after everyone came back from The Blip. It seems that they also stole super soldier serum from the Power Broker so that's why Karli got that text saying that they were going to find her and kill her?


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

logic88 said:


> I'm liking the series so far. Though some of the scenes are a bit head scratching like the episode 2 ending where one of the Flag Smashers sacrificed himself to delay the Power Broker's men. If you're not bullet-proof, running into a hail of machine gun fire doesn't seem like the brightest idea in the world.


That's why it's called a sacrifice.


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> That's why it's called a sacrifice.


It's not that great of a delaying tactic. Why not down a bunch of power poles and then start picking off the henchman one by one instead of killing yourself within seconds?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

logic88 said:


> Yeah, being a broke Avenger doesn't seem possible. At least with a billionaire as a team mate. Just out of curiosity, I looked up various estimates of Tony Stark's net worth and found it amazingly low compared to real life billionaires like Bezos and Musk.


He wasn't a teammate of Tony's for the last seven years.

(Technically, he was never a teammate of Tony's because Sam joined the roster partly due to Tony and Thor leaving at the end of Age of Ultron. Plus the Hulk went MIA.)


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

I think I saw this on Reddit and not this thread, sorry it it's a duplicate. Definitely an interesting read. One snippet that sums it up nicely on why Sam will be Captain America.



> Within the context of the MCU, we know that Howard Stark and Bruce Banner both attempted to replicate the supersoldier serum. Tony Stark and Banner get pointed name-drops by John Walker early in the episode. But the mention of the two Avengers is more than just fan service. Both characters are uniquely tied to the legacy of supersoldier serum, a legacy that we now understand was, at least in part, built on Black suffering. While there are still gaps in history to be filled in, Howard Stark's wealth and subsequently Tony's, came from government contracts, which included the creation of a new supersoldier formula. Likewise, Banner's success came from attempting to replicate the serum, which eventually turned him into the Hulk.
> 
> Years later, Banner and Tony would use these gifts to wield the Infinity Gauntlet and save the universe. The salvation of the universe that we saw in _Avengers: Endgame_ may be a direct result of a Black man's suffering.
> 
> It's clear from Sam and his sister Sarah's experiences in the first episode that universal salvation does not mean salvation for all people, especially if they have darker skin. Perhaps the Flag-Smashers have the right idea, something Sam seems to at least be thinking about when John Walker confronts him about taking them down at the episode's end. Captain America ultimately can't mean the same thing that it did before, and it can't have the freedom to be unburdened by the struggles of Black suffering. This is why John Walker will inevitably fail in the role, and why Sam Wilson, in order to succeed, will have to redefine what Captain America means both in the present and historically. This is the truth that we need to see onscreen, and the truth that Robert Morales, one of comics' unsung heroes - whose legacy should be more than trivia - deserves.


'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Uncovers Marvel's Original Sin


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Random User 7 said:


> I think I saw this on Reddit and not this thread, sorry it it's a duplicate. Definitely an interesting read. One snippet that sums it up nicely on why Sam will be Captain America.
> 
> 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Uncovers Marvel's Original Sin


If I had a nickel for everybody who tried to recreate the super soldier serum...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

You'd be Tony Stark?


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Can someone give me a rundown on the Powerbrokers from the comics?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> Can someone give me a rundown on the Powerbrokers from the comics?


Power Broker is a guy who sells superpowers to villains. (Actually, there have been a couple of them.)


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Power Broker is a guy who sells superpowers to villains. (Actually, there have been a couple of them.)


And professional wrestlers.

(No, seriously. This was a thing.)


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Is there a logical explanation for the name Winter Soldier or was it just a name the writers thought would be cool for super Bucky?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Is there a logical explanation for the name Winter Soldier or was it just a name the writers thought would be cool for super Bucky?


That was his code name when he was a Russian assassin.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

smak said:


> If I had a nickel for everybody who tried to recreate the super soldier serum...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I mean we don't really have evidence that the original super soldier serum worked 100% of the time do we, I mean just because it worked on Steve doesn't mean that it would work every time. Maybe they just got lucky.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Dr Erskine was killed after making the serum given to Steve Rogers, and all other versions of that were destroyed. After that, many tried, and many succeeded, but not quite to the level of Steve Rogers.

-smak-


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I'll add, there was one success down the line that equaled Steve Rogers, but that hasn't been introduced in the MCU yet.

-smak-


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

smak said:


> I'll add, there was one success down the line that equaled Steve Rogers, but that hasn't been introduced in the MCU yet.
> 
> -smak-


Is Bucky not considered a "success"?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> Is Bucky not considered a "success"?


It's sounding like Bucky was given the Russian version.
Which was almost as good except for the smoking people.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> I mean we don't really have evidence that the original super soldier serum worked 100% of the time do we, I mean just because it worked on Steve doesn't mean that it would work every time. Maybe they just got lucky.


But there clearly were others prior to Steve, even Erskine mentions his work that resulted in the Red Skull, how well that worked is up for debate, but it did work.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Red Skull was kind of in the super serum trial, and then the CDC emergency approved it, and then they gave it to Steve Rogers

-smak-


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Sharon Carter would make an excellent Black Widow.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> Sharon Carter would make an excellent Black Widow.


That's what i was saying to somebody, she should have the exact same training.

-smak-


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> That's what i was saying to somebody, she should have the exact same training.
> 
> -smak-


??? Pretty sure Sharon wasn't raised from early childhood in a brutal spy school for girls...


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ??? Pretty sure Sharon wasn't raised from early childhood in a brutal spy school for girls...


When I see Natasha fight, I see SHIELD trained fighting moves. We have no idea what she learned in spy school.

-smak-


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Agent 13 sure can mess people up. Glad she finally appeared.. And it will be interesting to see how/when she appears again.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

jsmeeker said:


> Agent 13 sure can mess people up. Glad she finally appeared.. And it will be interesting to see how/when she appears again.


Yes, excellent fight choreography for Agent 13. Good work by both Emily VanCamp and her stunt double Jess Durham. Great episode. Quality production. Enjoying this show!


----------



## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

Very interesting to see Sharon get in the car at the end... not sure which side she's on at the point, if any side.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Huh Madripoor.
That's interesting as in the comics, it's been a locale mostly seen in the X-Men books.
(First showed up in the New Mutants and then Wolverine liked hanging out there.)

Nagel confirms that there are 20 doses of his Super Soldier Serum out there.
We think that eight have been used by Karli and the Flag Smashers.
So what about the other 12?


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

JYoung said:


> Nagel confirms that there are 20 doses of his Super Soldier Serum out there.
> We think that eight have been used by Karli and the Flag Smashers.
> So what about the other 12?


Apparently the Flag Smashers have them. Karli said that with the lab destroyed, the Power Broker will come to them begging for the rest of the doses. It's not clear she actually believes he'll ask nicely though.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Right but the question is, will those doses stay in Karli's possession?


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

I want to know how they didn't notice Zemo was the container dock flag smasher since that's a very unique coat he's wearing. I got the impression he may also have had the serum, but it could be like Faux Cap.
I knew Zemo was deeper in the serum project when he grabbed the gun from under the counter.

ETA: After coffee I realized Zemo's mask was just the ski mask, not the flag smasher logo.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So in the comics, the Power Broker is a separate character. But I suspect that it's going to turn out to be someone we already know. This is based on nothing, other than that they haven't shown them yet, and it's a typical TV trope.

Lots of internet speculation on who it could be. I'm spoiling the list of possible suspects that I've seen, and there could be more.



Spoiler



Thunderbolt Ross
John Walker/New Cap
Arnim Zola in the computer
Sharon Carter


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Nagel confirms that there are 20 doses of his Super Soldier Serum out there.
> We think that eight have been used by Karli and the Flag Smashers.
> So what about the other 12?


Given there are only 12 unused doses available, I still think it was incredibly stupid of Karli to waste one of their super soldiers on that suicide run earlier.

It's also interesting that the Flag Smashers (or at least Karli) murdered those GRC soldiers. Had they killed anyone previously?


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Nagel should have given himself one of the doses.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Nagel should have given himself one of the doses.


Maybe he knows knew something?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

logic88 said:


> Given there are only 12 unused doses available, I still think it was incredibly stupid of Karli to waste one of their super soldiers on that suicide run earlier.


Especially if Karli sold off a couple of those doses.
(Maybe to a proxy for the US Government.)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

logic88 said:


> Given there are only 12 unused doses available, I still think it was incredibly stupid of Karli to waste one of their super soldiers on that suicide run earlier.
> 
> It's also interesting that the Flag Smashers (or at least Karli) murdered those GRC soldiers. Had they killed anyone previously?


Didn't seem like it, with the way her comrade reacted. "There were still people in there!" Seems like this is when she crossed the line from well-meaning revolutionary to outright villain.

The whole bit in Madripoor was kind of stupid. The boss lady (Selby) gets killed and a text goes out to all the city putting a 1,000 Bitcoin bounty on Sam and Bucky. That's $57 million at today's price. Yet they still walk out of there without any attempt to disguise themselves, and walk around the port with no protection, and then after the epic shootout, they leave the port as if the threat is completely over. The reality is the threat would never end until they were dead. There would be people lining up for miles to kill them.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Didn't seem like it, with the way her comrade reacted. "There were still people in there!" Seems like this is when she crossed the line from well-meaning revolutionary to outright villain.
> 
> The whole bit in Madripoor was kind of stupid. The boss lady (Selby) gets killed and a text goes out to all the city putting a 1,000 Bitcoin bounty on Sam and Bucky. That's $57 million at today's price. Yet they still walk out of there without any attempt to disguise themselves, and walk around the port with no protection, and then after the epic shootout, they leave the port as if the threat is completely over. The reality is the threat would never end until they were dead. There would be people lining up for miles to kill them.


Unless Sharon Carter has more power and authority than she lets on.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Unless Sharon Carter has more power and authority than she lets on.


If she has any control over the bounty, then why was she in just as much danger as the other three during the shootout? She was inside the lab when someone shot an RPG into it. The hunters were shooting at her as well. She may have some power, she may even be the Power Broker, but that wasn't stopping those assassins from trying to kill her along with Sam and Bucky.

Also, on a semi-related note: Who shot Selby? Was that Sharon? Was it someone we never saw and don't know?


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> If she has any control over the bounty, then why was she in just as much danger as the other three during the shootout? She was inside the lab when someone shot an RPG into it. The hunters were shooting at her as well. She may have some power, she may even be the Power Broker, but that wasn't stopping those assassins from trying to kill her along with Sam and Bucky.
> 
> Also, on a semi-related note: Who shot Selby? Was that Sharon? Was it someone we never saw and don't know?


We don't know for sure, but it's strongly hinted that it was Sharon.

Who placed the bounty?


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I assume whoever took the shot placed the bounty. It happened too quickly after the shot to not be connected.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Why would Sharon place the bounty then put herself in the line of fire?


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## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> If she has any control over the bounty, then why was she in just as much danger as the other three during the shootout? She was inside the lab when someone shot an RPG into it. The hunters were shooting at her as well. She may have some power, she may even be the Power Broker, but that wasn't stopping those assassins from trying to kill her along with Sam and Bucky.


I don't think Sharon is the Power Broker since the sequence of events lead to the death of Nagel and why would she want that if she was the Power Broker? I wonder if Karli stole anything else from the Power Brokers besides the Super Soldier serum. Why couldn't Nagel make more?

Also, Sam makes a terrible spy. Not putting your phone on DND when going into a potentially deadly meeting? Yikes!


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

logic88 said:


> Also, Sam makes a terrible spy. Not putting your phone on DND when going into a potentially deadly meeting? Yikes!


Well he was dusted for 5 years, maybe they didn't have DND before then.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Does he not have a way to wear his falcon stuff under his street clothes?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> Does he not have a way to wear his falcon stuff under his street clothes?


Being able to conceal the wings under street clothing would be totally unrealistic.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Nano tech is my answer to everything


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

logic88 said:


> Also, Sam makes a terrible spy. Not putting your phone on DND when going into a potentially deadly meeting? Yikes!


Or even bringing your personal phone with you at all.


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## Doggie Bear (Jan 16, 2008)

getbak said:


> Or even bringing your personal phone with you at all.


Or the dude in this GEICO ad....


----------



## Bill Reeves (Jul 18, 2002)

Just caught up with episode 3. Really good - a step up from the previous two, even though there was no big action scene in this one.

The Zemo in this episode had a few nice touches to refer to the comics, like the fur-lined jacket. The purple mask didn't work so well in live action, but this Zemo made more sense than the one we saw in Avengers Age of Ultron. (edit: oops, as pointed out below, it was Captain America Civil War, not Avengers Age of Ultron.)

They finally started showing some of the societal upheaval caused by the Blip and the return. Refugee camps, people being displaced, and bitter about it! They almost had us feeling sympathetic to Karli and the Flag Smashers, and then she goes and burns a bunch of people alive.

It seems like they are heavily implying that Sharon is the Power Broker - after the dockyards action scene, she was getting in a car and being driven away, but as previously pointed out, why would she put herself in danger like that? She also personally killed some of the bounty seekers. I suspect she was just trying to make it look good and she will turn out to be the Power Broker.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Zemo was in Captain America: Civil War


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## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

Bill Reeves said:


> It seems like they are heavily implying that Sharon is the Power Broker - after the dockyards action scene, she was getting in a car and being driven away, but as previously pointed out, why would she put herself in danger like that? She also personally killed some of the bounty seekers. I suspect she was just trying to make it look good and she will turn out to be the Power Broker.


The only thing that seems weird about Sharon being the Power Broker is why would she put her pet scientist in harm's way? Unless he wasn't needed anymore?


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Bill Reeves said:


> It seems like they are heavily implying that Sharon is the Power Broker - after the dockyards action scene, she was getting in a car and being driven away, but as previously pointed out, why would she put herself in danger like that? She also personally killed some of the bounty seekers. I suspect she was just trying to make it look good and she will turn out to be the Power Broker.


I think she's either the power broker, or undercover for some US entity.

The last thing I think is she's an art dealer.

-smak-


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## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

Kinda weird for Marvel themselves to put out this loop but I guess it's a meme already so they are leaning into it?


----------



## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

There was much more dancing filmed than was shown in the episode.  People wanted to see more, and there we are.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Finally something good came out of the “releasethe” genre.


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## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

Another good episode. We knew Walker was going to get juiced but I thought it was going to be the Power Broker doing it. Walker getting humbled by the Dora Milaje was a good reason for him to take the serum too.

How did Karli know so much about Sarah and the kids?


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

That was just great great great.

The whole thing from the Dora Milaje kicking Walker's ass, to Sam talking to Carli, to the final fight, and then the ending. Wow.

-smak-


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I liked it. I like departure from the comics, so we don't know what is going to happen. 

Also, Zemo is a villian, but I respect that he destroyed the super-serum instead of taking it himself.


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

Now THAT is a heel turn. :imp: And I get it, given his pile of circumstances. Very Ultron-ish. Wow. Yeah this was definitely the best episode yet.

Anyone else keep thinking of the title as "The Falcon and the Snowman"?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

This show has certainly done more than, well, the entire rest of the MCU combined to explore the consequences of the Snap and the, er, un-Snap. Interesting politics, in that apparently during the Snap barriers between nations and peoples were breaking down, but the return abruptly ended all that.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Not that we needed another obvious example of John Walker not entirely fitting into the role of Cap, but I find it someone obvious that he wears the suit and shield everywhere he goes. Sam and Bucky are attempting to discretely get some information out of the locals, and while they don't exactly fit in, they're doing it in plain clothes. Then Walker walks in and walks the streets all spangly catching the attention of everyone on the planet. He's so insecure about his role as Cap that he has to be dressed as Cap and waving the shield around *all* the time.

Of course now that he's gone all Game-o-Thrones on video, it's a little moot.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

It occurred to me while watching the end fight that Bucky's arm serves a lot of the same purposes in a fight as Cap's shield. The only major difference being that he can't throw it around.


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> It occurred to me while watching the end fight that Bucky's arm serves a lot of the same purposes in a fight as Cap's shield. The only major difference being that he can't throw it around.


Is Bucky's arm detachable in the comics? Just seems very odd that it would be designed that way.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

logic88 said:


> Is Bucky's arm detachable in the comics? Just seems very odd that it would be designed that way.


Sometimes they need to keep it in the shop overnight for service...


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I knew that John Walker was gonna be no good


Of course, I think everyone else already knew that for a long long time.


----------



## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sometimes they need to keep it in the shop overnight for service...


I've been trying to reach you about the extended warranty on your arm...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

martinp13 said:


> I've been trying to reach you about the extended warranty on your arm...


A courtesy call!


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

logic88 said:


> Is Bucky's arm detachable in the comics? Just seems very odd that it would be designed that way.


Well remember, this is the replacement that the wakandans made for him.

Maybe they wanted to be able to repossess it if they needed to LOL


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> I knew that John Walker was gonna be no good
> 
> Of course, I think everyone else already knew that for a long long time.


Yeah he has been an unstable jerk the whole time.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Cle Bennett: "What do you mean this is my last episode?"

Well, I think we all knew that Walker was not going to be up the task of actually being Captain America.

You know, if Sam and Bucky actually had secret identities, they could have walked around without drawing attention, just sayin'.


----------



## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> Yeah he has been an unstable jerk the whole time.


Actually, he's been ok. But everything has gone wrong and his "competition" Sam and Bucky have been making progress with Zemo where John has stalled. His talk with Lemar in this episode was awesome, and showed that John was still ok, just under pressure from others and especially himself. He's cocky and shouldn't have pissed off the Wakandans, but that's doesn't make him a bad guy, just an idiot.  Losing Lemar and finding the serum vial... that pushed him over the edge. Taking the vial made it all worse.

I swear I could hear Sidious' voice during John's execution scene: that's it... give in to your hate.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

martinp13 said:


> Actually, he's been ok. But everything has gone wrong and his "competition" Sam and Bucky have been making progress with Zemo where John has stalled. His talk with Lemar in this episode was awesome, and showed that John was still ok, just under pressure from others and especially himself. He's cocky and shouldn't have pissed off the Wakandans, but that's doesn't make him a bad guy, just an idiot.  Losing Lemar and finding the serum vial... that pushed him over the edge. Taking the vial made it all worse.
> 
> I swear I could hear Sidious' voice during John's execution scene: that's it... give in to your hate.


I dunno, they have not made us want to like him at all the whole time, and he has shown lack of confidence in himself. Very much unlike Steve, but I agree that this could have just been a setup for him to surprise us.

The way they set it up, the ending of this episode was not surprising at all...

When he had his chat with battlestar, that sealed it for me because he was basically saying that even he wasn't sure he could handle the serum.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

martinp13 said:


> Actually, he's been ok. But everything has gone wrong and his "competition" Sam and Bucky have been making progress with Zemo where John has stalled.


I disagree, at least for me it was pretty well telegraphed that Walker was struggling mentally with some issue, they just didn't dwell, they'd pop something up and then moved on.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dianebrat said:


> I disagree, at least for me it was pretty well telegraphed that Walker was struggling mentally with some issue, they just didn't dwell, they'd pop something up and then moved on.


And he seems to have always been more of a black-ops type guy then a, well, Captain America type guy. An American Winter Soldier, if you will, who they didn't even have to brainwash.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And he seems to have always been more of a black-ops type guy then a, well, Captain America type guy. An American Winter Soldier, if you will, who they didn't even have to brainwash.


Right, he was never fit to be Captain America.

It's like they totally forgot the plotline to Captain America: The First Avenger


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Remind me not to mess with the Dora Milaje. I think unpowered humans kicking his butt is what finally pushed Walker to super-up.

This show seems to be much more Sam oriented than Bucky. Heck, they seem to be spending more time on Karli's character development than Bucky's. Sam -> Walker -> Karli -> Bucky

It's weird to me that ordinary Latvian Joe Schmoes recognize Sam while he's in street clothes.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Remind me not to mess with the Dora Milaje. I think unpowered humans kicking his butt is what finally pushed Walker to super-up.


I also really REALLY enjoyed that fight, it showed that they are bad ass without powers because they have control, vision, and work together.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

"Stupid head tilt", lol.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Remind me not to mess with the Dora Milaje. I think unpowered humans kicking his butt is what finally pushed Walker to super-up.


It probably didn't help that they were women.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And he seems to have always been more of a black-ops type guy then a, well, Captain America type guy. An American Winter Soldier, if you will, who they didn't even have to brainwash.


This is because they didn't have a Dr. Erskine to steer the selection.
Remember, Colonel Phillips didn't want Steve (preferring a "real soldier") to be chosen and only grudgingly went along with Erskine after Steve jumped on the grenade.

If this was solely a military or political (or a combination) decision, I can see why Walker's previous record might be appealing to those in charge.

(I also note that they haven't gone into detail at this time of what Walker and Lamar did in Afghanistan.)

Or maybe they didn't think it was as important because there wasn't supposed to be a super soldier treatment for Walker?

_Edited to add:_ Also, it seems to me that they have skimped some on Walker's Captain America training. See: His fight with the Dora Milaje. He's still a novice fighting with the shield.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

That’s a good point, they needed someone who could be Captain America without the super serum. 

That does change the rules a little.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

are we any nearer to learning who the Power Broker is? Do people still think it's Sharon? I hope it's not.. I don't want her to be a bad "guy".


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Two things. How many here caught the reference to the John Byrne scene? Walker pounding the flag smasher with the shield was very similar to the comic scene where Cap decapitated Baron Blood. C’mon, I know Ereth, Rob, and Mr. Young picked up on that!

My brother noticed that the spears used by the Wakandans have some tech in them. They are the only ones who can pull them out when thrown into something. 

And a third observation. Bucky could have avoided a lot of grief when on his walk. He should have told her that Zemo is useful to him right now, and when he’s done with him he agreed to let Zemo free. But that he didn’t tell Zemo which country he would set him free in.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> Two things. How many here caught the reference to the John Byrne scene? Walker pounding the flag smasher with the shield was very similar to the comic scene where Cap decapitated Baron Blood. C'mon, I know Ereth, Rob, and Mr. Young picked up on that!


It reminded me of the Cap vs Iron Man fight in Civil War, if only because of the contrast. In that Steve raises the shield and Tony's head is exposed and defenseless, but smashes it into the arc reactor.

Walker has the same stance, but goes for the killing blow.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> Two things. How many here caught the reference to the John Byrne scene? Walker pounding the flag smasher with the shield was very similar to the comic scene where Cap decapitated Baron Blood. C'mon, I know Ereth, Rob, and Mr. Young picked up on that!


I know which scene you're talking about but when I was watching it, I was reminded of when comic book Walker


Spoiler



beat Professor Power to death. Also when he went nuts and brutally wiped out the militia group that were responsible for the deaths of his parents.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I know which scene you're talking about but when I was watching it, I was reminded of when comic book Walker
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I didn't read that story. I stopped reading comics before the US Agent character was introduced.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

kdmorse said:


> Not that we needed another obvious example of John Walker not entirely fitting into the role of Cap, but I find it someone obvious that he wears the suit and shield everywhere he goes. Sam and Bucky are attempting to discretely get some information out of the locals, and while they don't exactly fit in, they're doing it in plain clothes. Then Walker walks in and walks the streets all spangly catching the attention of everyone on the planet. He's so insecure about his role as Cap that he has to be dressed as Cap and waving the shield around *all* the time.
> 
> Of course now that he's gone all Game-o-Thrones on video, it's a little moot.


We've seen Walker and Lamar in plain clothes numerous times, including in the latest episode. The scene where they are chatting "off duty" and Walker is approached and asked for his autograph. Not only was he in plain clothes, but was still recognized as being Captain America. He has doubts about his role, but donning the suit stems from him being a soldier, and being in uniform on duty. He isn't operating undercover.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

martinp13 said:


> Anyone else keep thinking of the title as "The Falcon and the Snowman"?


Yup. Every time.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

martinp13 said:


> Anyone else keep thinking of the title as "The Falcon and the Snowman"?


No, but don't think I've ever seen that movie.


----------



## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> Well remember, this is the replacement that the wakandans made for him.
> 
> Maybe they wanted to be able to repossess it if they needed to LOL


I wish the Dora Milaje would have repossessed the shield instead of giving it back to Walker.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

hapster85 said:


> We've seen Walker and Lamar in plain clothes numerous times, including in the latest episode. The scene where they are chatting "off duty" and Walker is approached and asked for his autograph. Not only was he in plain clothes, but was still recognized as being Captain America. He has doubts about his role, but donning the suit stems from him being a soldier, and being in uniform on duty. He isn't operating undercover.


Yeah but...... when that one guy spat on him, he promptly screamed, "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!!!!!" and he almost started whaling on the guy.


----------



## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Binge watched the current episodes and was pleasantly surprised after being disappointed with Wandavision. It is pretty interesting so far. 

My annual subscription expires July 1. I got a lot of enjoyment by watching Hamilton and Mandalorian S1 wasn’t horrible. I still have S2 to watch so maybe there will be enough content to justify a renewal.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I liked Mando S1, but thought S2 was even better. If you're at all a fan of Disney Parks the Imagineering Story is excellent. (And I'd listen to Angela Basset [Who narrates it] read a phone book)


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

Beryl said:


> Binge watched the current episodes and was pleasantly surprised after being disappointed with Wandavision. It is pretty interesting so far.


Curious if you stuck around for all 9 episodes of WandaVision or bailed early? If you stuck around, what did you find disappointing? If you bailed, episode 4 was the first big reveal about what was actually happening. You might enjoy giving it another look.


----------



## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

hapster85 said:


> Curious if you stuck around for all 9 episodes of WandaVision or bailed early? If you stuck around, what did you find disappointing? If you bailed, episode 4 was the first big reveal about what was actually happening. You might enjoy giving it another look.


I watched it all. It may be weird but some of MCU offerings I love, some I tolerate, and others I cannot. I tolerated WV hoping it would grow on me. It didn't. It is the same with the DC Universe.

(I didn't crap on the WV thread and now feel a little bad about mentioning it here.)


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Yeah but...... when that one guy spat on him, he promptly screamed, "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!!!!!" and he almost started whaling on the guy.


Kind of a testament to him going crazy in that he's screaming that at somebody in the Captain America suit.

-smak-


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I rewatched Captain America: Civil War yesterday for the first time since its original release. Other than the airport fight scene, I had forgotten about 90% of everything that happened in the movie. I should have rewatched before starting The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

Beryl said:


> (I didn't crap on the WV thread and now feel a little bad about mentioning it here.)


No worries. I understand the format they used wasn't everyone's cup of tea.


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

cheesesteak said:


> I rewatched Captain America: Civil War yesterday for the first time since its original release. Other than the airport fight scene, I had forgotten about 90% of everything that happened in the movie. I should have rewatched before starting The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.


Such a good movie. Since D+ has come around I typically watch the whole MCU every year over Christmas break and into January. Each time I pick up something new about someone or something that relates to a different movie or now episode.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JYoung said:


> (I also note that they haven't gone into detail at this time of what Walker and Lamar did in Afghanistan.)


Speaking of that, did anyone else find it odd they referenced Walker being awarded three Medals of Honor, but then when he and Lamar were talking about it, they were talking about the things they had to do on "that day" as if all three Medals stemmed from the events of a single day. Is that even remotely realistic?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of that, did anyone else find it odd they referenced Walker being awarded three Medals of Honor, but then when he and Lamar were talking about it, they were talking about the things they had to do on "that day" as if all three Medals stemmed from the events of a single day. Is that even remotely realistic?


Must have been a REALLY busy day! 

(I suppose technically, if he was involved in three completely unrelated actions on that day, it would be possible?)


----------



## ehusen (Jan 7, 2002)

martinp13 said:


> Now THAT is a heel turn. :imp: And I get it, given his pile of circumstances. Very Ultron-ish. Wow. Yeah this was definitely the best episode yet.
> 
> Anyone else keep thinking of the title as "The Falcon and the Snowman"?


All the dang time!


----------



## ehusen (Jan 7, 2002)

I think the Wakanda warrior removed his arm just to let him know that if he messes with them, they can take back their gifts quite easily.

When Bucky puts the arm back on and does the full arm swipe I'm thinking: "Yeah, you've got to do a re-calibration of the servos and accelerometers after a restart..."


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Speaking of that, did anyone else find it odd they referenced Walker being awarded three Medals of Honor, but then when he and Lamar were talking about it, they were talking about the things they had to do on "that day" as if all three Medals stemmed from the events of a single day. Is that even remotely realistic?


Maybe they were just talking about the last medal they were awarded?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Interesting speculation about the final two episodes with emphasis on episode 5. I don't think there are spoilers here, just speculation but feel free to skip to be sure.

What Is the Episode 5 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Hype Pointing Toward?


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Interesting speculation about the final two episodes with emphasis on episode 5. I don't think there are spoilers here, just speculation but feel free to skip to be sure.
> 
> What Is the Episode 5 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Hype Pointing Toward?


Didn't read the article but I was looking for reviews of episode 4 and saw a possible spoiler for future episodes in a few headlines that popped up in the search. Why do they do that?!


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

logic88 said:


> Didn't read the article but I was looking for reviews of episode 4 and saw a possible spoiler for future episodes in a few headlines that popped up in the search. Why do they do that?!


I learned my lesson after WandaVision to not look for reviews.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I want to see that suit in action soooo badly.

-smak-


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I'm reading on reddit, and like 75% of the people don't know what's in the box from Wakanda?

How?

-smak-


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I assume it’s new wings, made out of vibranium. Possibly nanotech so he doesn't have to take them off and on.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So Sharon ordered Bartoc to kill Sam. 

New Cap's new shield (credit scene) isn't going to be made out of vibramium. 

JLD as a new villain.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

smak said:


> I'm reading on reddit, and like 75% of the people don't know what's in the box from Wakanda?


Gwyneth Paltrow's head?


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

I only knew it was Bartoc right away on the phone with Sharon because of subtitles. I wouldn’t have known until the end otherwise.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

smak said:


> I'm reading on reddit, and like 75% of the people don't know what's in the box from Wakanda?
> 
> How?
> 
> -smak-


They haven't read the comics

Like me.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> New Cap's new shield (credit scene) isn't going to be made out of vibramium.


it's gonna look like crap.. who is he gonna fool with it?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Is there a car shortage in the Marvel-verse? Sam walking down the street in Baltimore... Bucky walking down a dirt road away from Sam's house...


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> JLD as a new villain.


JLD? Who's that?


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Is there a car shortage in the Marvel-verse? Sam walking down the street in Baltimore... Bucky walking down a dirt road away from Sam's house...


maybe a post blip thing? No idea..

all the cars from people who got snapped away got junked.. then BOOM.. they are back.. Car shortage.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> JLD? Who's that?


Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Although it's too early to know if she's a 'villain', or just someone with an agenda thats likely to conflict with Sam and Bucky.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

kdmorse said:


> Julia Louis-Dreyfus
> 
> Although it's too early to know if she's a 'villain', or just someone with an agenda thats likely to conflict with Sam and Bucky.


Wow. I didn't recognize her at all!


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

The growth of Bucky, the battling of his demons, trying to eradicate his Winter Solider personality. His forging a true friendship with Sam. This is just so good. I'm sorry next week closes out the season / series.



Spoiler



while there has been plenty of speculation that this series was to give Sam the arc to go from Falcon to Captain America. But is it also going to see the end of the Winter Soldier and Bucky will become known as the "Whote Wolf"? Two transformation arcs?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

kdmorse said:


> Julia Louis-Dreyfus
> 
> Although it's too early to know if she's a 'villain', or just someone with an agenda thats likely to conflict with Sam and Bucky.


Well, back when I was reading comics, Contessa Valentina Allegra de la Fontaine was a top agent of SHIELD and one of Nick Fury's squeezes.

Of course, things may have changed.......

Liked Sam giving Bucky the stink eye when he was talking to Sarah.

So what's Sharon's motive here?

BTW Bucky admitted something that I've suspected since the end of Endgame, that he knew in advance that old Steve was going to show up and give Sam the shield.

Johnny boy, wouldn't attaching your medal to your shield throw off it's balance?


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> it's gonna look like crap.. who is he gonna fool with it?


Bucky should be able to crumple it with a single strike!

And yes, I know that Sam has been training hard but for some reason, the idea of a "normie" being Captain America doesn't sit right with me. Hopefully they will give him some type of enhancement in the series ender.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

His enhancement is in that box from Wakanda


-smak-


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

smak said:


> His enhancement is in that box from Wakanda
> 
> -smak-


I haven't read the comics so I'm guessing it's either a new set of wings or possibly one of the blossoms that gave Black Panther his abilities. That's it! Sam is going to become Captain Wakanda!


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> possible one of the blossoms


That box was pretty big for a blossom.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Wow. I didn't recognize her at all!


I know, the blue streak in her hair really threw me


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> They haven't read the comics
> 
> Like me.


I haven't read the comics, but a new set of wings would be logical. Perhaps in red white and blue?


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I think the point of the Rocky-like training montage is that Sam doesn't need super powers. He's a peak human. 

The box most likely contains new wings made out of Vibranium so that they can't break. Maybe a whole costume. Maybe nano-tech like Iron Man's so he doesn't have to take it on and off.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

They are doing everything they can to make us think that Sharon is the Power Broker, which means she probably isn't. But sometimes a rose is a rose, so maybe she is.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> They are doing everything they can to make us think that Sharon is the Power Broker, which means she probably isn't. But sometimes a rose is a rose, so maybe she is.


But maybe they know that you know that, so maybe she isn't.

But on the other hand, they know that you know that they know...


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I’ve enjoyed these so much it leads me to wonder if I wouldn’t prefer a series to a movie in general. Will be interesting to see if I think Black Widow for instance would be better as a series.

(Mando also made me wonder the same for Star Wars - Solo would have been better as a series.)


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

SullyND said:


> I've enjoyed these so much it leads me to wonder if I wouldn't prefer a series to a movie in general. Will be interesting to see if I think Black Widow for instance would be better as a series.
> 
> (Mando also made me wonder the same for Star Wars - Solo would have been better as a series.)


The series (even a short season like Wanda Vision or this one) format definitely gives the writers some space to tell a more involved story and build characters. Falcon and the Winter Soldier is trilogy movie length, but there's no way they could have done this over three years and three movies, and condensing it into two hours would have made it something very different. So I agree, Disney+ lets Marvel tell different kinds of stories in different ways.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

LoadStar said:


> But maybe they know that you know that, so maybe she isn't.
> 
> But on the other hand, they know that you know that they know...


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I think the point of the Rocky-like training montage is that Sam doesn't need super powers. He's a peak human.
> 
> The box most likely contains new wings made out of Vibranium so that they can't break. Maybe a whole costume. Maybe nano-tech like Iron Man's so he doesn't have to take it on and off.


Sam might be peak human but he isn't going to keep a helicopter from lifting off. I just want my superheroes to be, well, super.

A tidbit from this spoiler article claims to have more info on JLD's appearance.

What the Hell Is [Redacted] Doing in a Marvel Show?



Spoiler






> Vanity Fair goes on to quote sources that claim that the Contessa will also appear in _Black Widow_-a movie was meant to premiere last May, until the pandemic went and pandemic'd all over the place, so now it's not out until this July. Should that rumor prove true, it would prove that we were meant to have met Louis-Dreyfus' Marvel character on the big screen before the small one


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

logic88 said:


> Sam might be peak human but he isn't going to keep a helicopter from lifting off. I just want my superheroes to be, well, super.
> 
> A tidbit from this spoiler article claims to have more info on JLD's appearance.
> 
> What the Hell Is [Redacted] Doing in a Marvel Show?


Tony Stark is a genius and rich, but otherwise has no superpowers. Sam has done just fine as Falcon without powers. Rhodie isn't super. Neither are Barton or Romanov. Lots of others.


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

hapster85 said:


> Tony Stark is a genius and rich, but otherwise has no superpowers. Sam has done just fine as Falcon without powers. Rhodie isn't super. Neither are Barton or Romanov. Lots of others.


Good for them. None of them are my favorites though. Gimme more Thor, Hulk, Spider-Man, Wanda, etc.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

you know it's a tough crowd when they think Iron Man isn't good enough for the MCU


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> you know it's a tough crowd when they think Iron Man isn't good enough for the MCU


Heh. Iron Man is an interesting case. While the meatsuit inside is normal, the suit and it's various gadgets are definitely "super" so does he count as a "normal" hero? I often see jokes about Hawkeye being the worst Avenger but I don't see those jokes about Iron Man.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> They are doing everything they can to make us think that Sharon is the Power Broker, which means she probably isn't. But sometimes a rose is a rose, so maybe she is.


It's possible that Sharon is paying Batroc to help Sam and Bucky under the guise of wanting revenge.



logic88 said:


> Heh. Iron Man is an interesting case. While the meatsuit inside is normal, the suit and it's various gadgets are definitely "super" so does he count as a "normal" hero? I often see jokes about Hawkeye being the worst Avenger but I don't see those jokes about Iron Man.


On the other hand, they've made it a point to show that Sam knows how to fight and can fight using the Falcon suit well enough to go toe to toe with Karli's super soldiers.

Tony Stark + Iron Man suit = superhero.
Sam Wilson + Falcon suit + shield = Captain America?


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Did you guys forget how badass Sam was in the opening sequence of the show?


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

Exactly


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> Did you guys forget how badass Sam was in the opening sequence of the show?


You add being in much better shape, his new suit & the shield. He will be in the mid pack of powerful avengers

-smak-


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

logic88 said:


> Heh. Iron Man is an interesting case. While the meatsuit inside is normal, the suit and it's various gadgets are definitely "super" so does he count as a "normal" hero? I often see jokes about Hawkeye being the worst Avenger but I don't see those jokes about Iron Man.


Because Iron Man has the suit. That basically gives him powers. Clint has nothing but a bow.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Because Iron Man has the suit. That basically gives him powers. Clint has nothing but a bow.


Well, the way he uses his bow basically gives him powers...


----------



## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> I haven't read the comics so I'm guessing it's either a new set of wings or possible one of the blossoms that gave Black Panther his abilities. That's it! Sam is going to become Captain Wakanda!


I haven't read the comics so purely speculation, but I'm assuming that there's an enhanced Captain America suit in there, something similar to Black Panther's suit that can redirect energy. I'm guessing that another character who doesn't seem to have a real purpose becomes the Falcon.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I’m wondering if it’ll be able to absorb and wield kinetic energy like the BP suit. 


-smak-


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

David Platt said:


> I haven't read the comics so purely speculation, but I'm assuming that there's an enhanced Captain America suit in there, something similar to Black Panther's suit that can redirect energy. I'm guessing that another character who doesn't seem to have a real purpose becomes the Falcon.


In the comics


Spoiler



that would be Joachim.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

hapster85 said:


> Tony Stark is a genius and rich, but otherwise has no superpowers. Sam has done just fine as Falcon without powers. Rhodie isn't super. Neither are Barton or Romanov. Lots of others.


Batman anyone?


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Batman anyone?


But he's white and rich....
<it's a bit sad to put it that way>


----------



## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

logic88 said:


> Heh. Iron Man is an interesting case. While the meatsuit inside is normal, the suit and it's various gadgets are definitely "super" so does he count as a "normal" hero? I often see jokes about Hawkeye being the worst Avenger but I don't see those jokes about Iron Man.


the fact that Tony designs and builds the things that make him super is actually more hero-ish than being born (Thor) or being Infinity stoned. I would say Dr Strange is a self made superhero.


----------



## domat (Apr 16, 2007)

jsmeeker said:


> you know it's a tough crowd when they think Iron Man isn't good enough for the MCU


The thing with the MCU they are really making out to be that the suit is everything. Machine Man put on the suit for the first time and was evenly matched with Iron Man who had been using it for years at that point. Not to mention Jeff Bridges who was beating Iron man 3 seconds after donning his suit.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

It will be a Wakanda-built Captain America suit. I suspect it will allow Sam to hold his own.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

lol but the makes of it Wakanda is the true Power Broker it appears.


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

While the suits help, it’s the attitude and personality combined with the suit that makes them super heroes.

Agree, Sam will be the new Cap at the end of this. Watched The final two Avengers movies again and it’s what makes the most sense. Looking forward to Loki, but hate to wait so long.

Also knowing now about Boseman and what he was able to accomplish while going through treatment is remarkable.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> It will be a Wakanda-built Captain America suit. I suspect it will allow Sam to hold his own.


Sam got the shield away from Walker and broke his arm by using a damaged Falcon suit to his advantage.

I'd say he can already hold his own.


----------



## ehusen (Jan 7, 2002)

Is it just me or is Wakanda the 'Q' of the MCU?


----------



## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I didn't think about Sam's new suit being a power suit. Like making Same a super soldier, without him having to take a super serum. That would be pretty cool. I'm really looking forward to this last episode. It could be really awesome, or a complete letdown.


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

ehusen said:


> Is it just me or is Wakanda the 'Q' of the MCU?


Well, with Tony dead, they inherited that mantle.


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

How long until Morgan becomes super via Stark technology? Is she super in the comics?

Edit: Tony and Pepper’s daughter


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Random User 7 said:


> How long until Morgan becomes super via Stark technology? Is she super in the comics?


Morgan?


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Morgan?


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

Lol, Tony and Pepper’s daughter.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ah, I was thinking in terms of this show...and all I could come up with was Morgenthau, who already IS super.

There is no comic book Morgan Stark. Well, there is, but he's Tony's cousin (and a villain).


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

From some explanations I've seen, specifically about their hologram technology, Wakanda tech is ahead of everybody else, including Stark.

So this suit could really be something.

The main thing is he has to be able to wear it all the time. But even Stark could do that.

-smak-


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

Just read about a new series getting set to begin that I'm really excited about. I think understanding this character via a series makes a lot of sense.



Spoiler



Fury series!

Olivia Colman in Talks to Join Samuel L. Jackson in Marvel's 'Secret Invasion' Series (Exclusive)


----------



## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

mattyro7878 said:


> ... or being Infinity stoned


Hey, wow, maaan.... (sorry, I know exactly what you meant but it just came together as its own phrase)


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Random User 7 said:


> Just read about a new series getting set to begin that I'm really excited about. I think understanding this character via a series makes a lot of sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whoa!!



Spoiler



HM Queen Elizabeth II as an Aveneger??


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> HM Queen Elizabeth II as an Aveneger??


Somehow, that sounds vaguely racist...


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Sam got the shield away from Walker and broke his arm by using a damaged Falcon suit to his advantage.
> 
> I'd say he can already hold his own.


didnt he also have a supersoldier helping too? That's not exactly holding "your own"


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

zordude said:


> didnt he also have a supersoldier helping too? That's not exactly holding "your own"


When/how would Sam have gotten a dose of the super soldier serum?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

zordude said:


> didnt he also have a supersoldier helping too? That's not exactly holding "your own"





DevdogAZ said:


> When/how would Sam have gotten a dose of the super soldier serum?


He means Bucky.

I knew that someone would bring that up.
I will point out that Bucky was out of it and couldn't help Sam when he pulled the shield off and broke Walker's arm.

IMO the battle lines up like this.

Walker + Super Soldier Serum + Shield + "Roid Rage over Lemar's death" = One very dangerous dude.

Sam Wilson + Falcon suit and Bucky Barnes + Super Soldier Serum + Vibranium arm.

Seems about equal to me.

(Also, does this version of the super soldier serum lock Walker into that "roid rage" mental state?)


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

JYoung said:


> He means Bucky.
> 
> I knew that someone would bring that up.
> I will point out that Bucky was out of it and couldn't help Sam when he pulled the shield off and broke Walker's arm.


Bucky was very actively engaged in the act of breaking his arm.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Ouch. I heard the arm crack that time. And yet Marvel's MTV Award nomination for "Best Fight" went to _WandaVision_. Falcon is nominated for "Best Hero" though, and Sam+Bucky for "Best Duo": MTV Movie & TV Awards Nominations: 'WandaVision' Leads Nominations - Deadline


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Ouch. I heard the arm crack that time. And yet Marvel's MTV Award nomination for "Best Fight" went to _WandaVision_. Falcon is nominated for "Best Hero" though, and Sam+Bucky for "Best Duo": MTV Movie & TV Awards Nominations: 'WandaVision' Leads Nominations - Deadline


The Wanda v Agatha showdown was OK but if I had a vote, I would have taken Sharon's takedown of the various thugs in the shipping yard.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Ouch. I heard the arm crack that time. And yet Marvel's MTV Award nomination for "Best Fight" went to _WandaVision_. Falcon is nominated for "Best Hero" though, and Sam+Bucky for "Best Duo": MTV Movie & TV Awards Nominations: 'WandaVision' Leads Nominations - Deadline


This episode only aired 4 days ago. If the MTV Movie Awards nominations are already out, I'm sure this episode wasn't eligible.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> This episode only aired 4 days ago. If the MTV Movie Awards nominations are already out, I'm sure this episode wasn't eligible.


it's the MTV awards. Is there a list of Eligible criteria?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Win Joy Jr said:


> it's the MTV awards. Is there a list of Eligible criteria?


Well, for one I'm sure in order for it to be eligible, they'd have to know it exists...


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

zordude said:


> Bucky was very actively engaged in the act of breaking his arm.


All right.
My initial viewing was that Bucky got knocked on his back and was being whaled on by Walker with the shield when Sam jumped him, grabbed the shield and activated his jet pack.
See also after Sam gets the shield off, Bucky is seen getting up from the floor.

Looking at it closely (and pausing a lot) although it isn't that clear, you do see that Bucky is doing something.
Looks like sitting up(?), standing up,(?) crouching(?) and grabbing Walker's other arm but it's not that clear.
(I think I see Bucky's right hand on Walker's shield arm at one point.)

He's doing something that the editing should have made clearer.
The editorial focus seems to be more on Sam though.

Still say Walker was suffering from "Roid rage" though.


----------



## Allanon (Nov 2, 2005)

JYoung said:


> All right.
> My initial viewing was that Bucky got knocked on his back and was being whaled on by Walker with the shield when Sam jumped him, grabbed the shield and activated his jet pack.
> See also after Sam gets the shield off, Bucky is seen getting up from the floor.
> 
> ...


Bucky is holding Walker against the pillar while Sam takes the shield.


----------



## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

Steve Rogers went up against, surprised? and took a big hit from the mad titan, Marvel set the Captain America bar pretty high. If Sam AS IS right now, tried that, he would be mashed potatoes. If he doesn't get enhanced in some way no amount of wings would would put him at the originals level. Sure he did great in the first episode (against regular humans) and went up against serum infused crazy cap (with the help of Bucky), but it'll be tough buying into him going up against some of the heavy hitters. 

Sure others were posting what about hawkeye, tony stark, but so far all other characters have stayed in their lane. Hawkeye is still shooting arrows, not taking over the incredible hulks position. Take away Tonys suit and brains and give him a bow & arrow, I'm sure he wouldn't be very helpful. Sam is great as Falcon and I'm sure he will be a great Cap, but he can't be going up against cosmic baddies as is. 

Ah, no matter what they do, I'm sure they'll make it work and I'll watch.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

My guess is that the wakanda falcon suit gives him some mechanical augments a la iron mans suit.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Allanon said:


> Bucky is holding Walker against the pillar while Sam takes the shield.


Yes, he is.
But the shot that establishes that (where you can actually see the pillar) lasts for less than one second.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Yes, he is.
> But the shot that establishes that (where you can actually see the pillar) lasts for less than one second.


It is definitely quick cuts. Bucky is also "pushing" on the arm that breaks, in addition to Sam using his jet to pull the shield.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

Bucky and Sam have had at least a couple of conversations where Steve's name has come up, and he's been referred to as "gone now". We know he's not dead, just old. Each time it has come up, I can't help but think, they could just use the time travel machine to un-age him. The same way we saw Scott Lang's age change the first time they tried it with him. I think Tony put it as moving time through him, instead of him through time.

I don't know if Chris Evans has any interest in playing Cap again, but they've already set up how it could be done.

Anyway, that's where my mind goes each time they debate who should have the shield.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

hapster85 said:


> Bucky and Sam have had at least a couple of conversations where Steve's name has come up, and he's been referred to as "gone now". We know he's not dead, just old. Each time it has come up, I can't help but think,.


Yeah.. I can't stop thinking about this either.. But not so much the way you are about de-aging Steve

Rather, I keep thinking "Is he actually DEAD now?". Because usually, that's what "he's gone" would mean. I get that how maybe publically, people think Steve is gone gone (dead). But if it's just Bucky and Sam talking in private, why refer to Steve as "gone"? Why not say "Retired"? Which is what he basically is. (assuming that we are right that Steve is not really dead )


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Arent there Captain America plot where the serum gets weaker in Steve as he ages. So old Steve who just wants to be retired could also just be an old frail man. So when they say he's gone they're also implying he's not the Captain anymore.

I dont know. I think Chris Evans has said he's done with the role.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Even if Chris Evans is done with the role, they could probably have old retired Steve appear in some brief cameo somehow using CGI wizardry.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> Even if Chris Evans is done with the role, they could probably have old retired Steve appear in some brief cameo somehow using CGI wizardry.


He could become the new Stan Lee and appear randomly in every Marvel movie.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

My brother told me about a fan made clip where Sam opens the suitcase to find a Wolverine costume. I can’t find it: does anyone have a link?


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

So I just read this and found it interesting. A way to spot a villain in a movie based on rules by X. Possible reveal of who the PB or an unnamed villain is.



Spoiler



Apple has a clause that villains cannot use iPhones. Sharon had an Android phone.


----------



## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

Random User 7 said:


> So I just read this and found it interesting. A way to spot a villain in a movie based on rules by X. Possible reveal of who the PB or an unnamed villain is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is 100% true. I read about that a year or two ago.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

KungFuCow said:


> That is 100% true. I read about that a year or two ago.


Although if they just buy their own stuff, they can do whatever they want...


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Spoiler



Hmmm....Sam's phone didn't look like it's from Apple. Very interesting.....


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Random User 7 said:


> So I just read this and found it interesting. A way to spot a villain in a movie based on rules by X. Possible reveal of who the PB or an unnamed villain is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Are you sure it wasn't a Stark Phone?


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

Huh. I'm not sure what I expected for the last episode but somehow that didn't feel satisfying. Sharon ended up being the Power Broker? I still don't understand why she allowed her scientist to get killed unless he couldn't make any more serum for some reason? And Walker just transitions into US Agent? I had expected more repercussions from him killing that Flag Smasher in front of the world. And what's with trying to make Karli into a sympathetic figure? She was murdering without remorse and was ready to mow down even more in pursuit of her goals.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I don't think she cared about the serum, it was just a means to an end while she was in Madripoor, until she realized that Falcon could help her get a pardon.

So she basically had Batroc infiltrate the flag smashers, and then went to NY to help Falcon and get that pardon.

The Power Broker was just a local 2 bit warlord, and not really important in the long run.

I thought Falcon went too far in trying to help Karli, and didn't like that all that much.

Other than that I thought it was good. 

-smak-


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Based on her phone call after her pardon it looks like Sharon will continue to be shady, if not still being the Power Broker.

I totally get and agree with Sam lecturing the bigwigs about how they're making decisions that affect millions of people while having no connection to them and the consequences to their decisions. But no matter what her intentions were, Karli was a murderer and a terrorist. There was nothing sympathetic about her and it bugged me when Sam carried her out of the building like she was some kind of fallen hero. Then again, Sam is a better person than me. I might have felt better about Karli if she had told Sam that Sharon was the Power Broker before she kicked the bucket.

My head is going to explode the next time I see two characters pull guns on each other and just stand there pointing and talking instead of shooting. That whole scene was kinda problematic to me in that it was quite obvious that Sharon was going to kill Batroc and Karli in order to keep her secret identity secret.

I liked the episode specifically and the series on the whole.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I thought it was just ok.

Random thoughts:

They telegraphed that Sharon was the Power Broker, and she was. But why did she lead them to Nagel and let Zemo kill him? Why did she put herself at risk? 

The action sequence went on for far too long.

Karli was still a murderer of innocents. Sam gave her too much respect. 

And Bucky telling the old man that he killed his son - is that supposed to make the old man feel better? Is that closure? It makes Bucky feel better, but seems kind of selfish. 

Someone else said that they thought that Captain America was on the moon. Maybe old Steve really is there. 

Zemo’s butler killed the Flag Smashers.


----------



## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> And Bucky telling the old man that he killed his son - is that supposed to make the old man feel better? Is that closure? It makes Bucky feel better, but seems kind of selfish.


I think in the first episode, the old man said something like he just wanted to know why he died. I think Bucky telling him gave them both closure.


----------



## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> And Bucky telling the old man that he killed his son - is that supposed to make the old man feel better? Is that closure? It makes Bucky feel better, but seems kind of selfish.


I thought that too, but then at the end we see the old man and the girl, and the man seems ok. For him, I think closure was what he needed.

Production theory: Aside from Zemo, I don't think we knew anyone else on the list. So for us to know Bucky was "doing the work", he had to come clean to the old man.


----------



## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I also thought Sharon being the Power Broker was weird. I guess they made it seem like she was, and you just assumed there will be a twist. Then it ends up there was no twist.

I was really excited for this last episode. I liked it, but for some reason I really thought it was going to blow my mind. Like I thought Sam's new suit was going to be this amazing thing. It was just a red, white & blue version of his suit.

I liked the Sam speech at the end and the stuff with Isaiah.

Bring on Loki!!


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

martinp13 said:


> I thought that too, but then at the end we see the old man and the girl, and the man seems ok. For him, I think closure was what he needed.
> 
> Production theory: Aside from Zemo, I don't think we knew anyone else on the list. So for us to know Bucky was "doing the work", he had to come clean to the old man.


Most of the names on the list were people involved in the production of the show


----------



## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> Most of the names on the list were people involved in the production of the show


I meant we didn't know them in-show, like we did the old man.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

This seems to be par for the course with disney+, giving villains unearned sympathy, trying to recreate complexity of Thanos. But I feel that just like in Wandavision, feeling sad and emotional for the defeated villain just doesn't work. Overall the finale was ok, though first 5 episodes were much better.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

It was all right, but the problem is we were expecting spectacular, so it seemed just Meh.

Marvel TV Studios has figured out how to start strong, they've figured out how to keep it going mid 'season', they just haven't mastered the art of sticking the landing yet.

(Which is, come to think of it, kinda endemic to streaming shows, though I have no idea why)


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

While the ending wasn’t bad, I feel it was a huge step down considering everything that happened the prior episode. That it was 10 minutes shorter and more or less everything was wrapped up after 25 minutes probably didn’t help.

I felt that Wandavision had a better finale. 

What happened to the guy that fell into the river? Was he in the van that blew up?


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

Hoffer said:


> I also thought Sharon being the Power Broker was weird. I guess they made it seem like she was, and you just assumed there will be a twist. Then it ends up there was no twist.
> 
> I was really excited for this last episode. I liked it, but for some reason I really thought it was going to blow my mind. Like I thought Sam's new suit was going to be this amazing thing. It was just a red, white & blue version of his suit.
> 
> ...


I think as demonstrated with WandaVision and now this series, Marvel isn't big on twists. We should take the hints at face value. Sharon is the Power Broker, even if it's odd for her to take out her own scientist. And if it seems obvious that Wakanda would just fixed the Falcon suit, don't expect anything more than that. (Yes, I was hoping for better Wakanda tech in the new suit!)


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

logic88 said:


> I think as demonstrated with WandaVision and now this series, Marvel isn't big on twists. We should take the hints at face value. Sharon is the Power Broker, even if it's odd for her to take out her own scientist. And if it seems obvious that Wakanda would just fixed the Falcon suit, don't expect anything more than that. (Yes, I was hoping for better Wakanda tech in the new suit!)


When the guys showed up, she decided to get rid of all the loose ends, and help them, and get that pardon.

And yes, Marvel doesn't do big twists, they never have, and they also don't do giant surprise cameos. Like Victor Von Doom wasn't going to be in the end credits saying how he's taken control of Sakovia.

In WV and this, they telegraphed the "hidden villain" It's not like we were supposed to be surprised.

-smak-


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

Good review which I tend to agree with
'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Finale: A Miscarriage of Justice


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

smak said:


> When the guys showed up, she decided to get rid of all the loose ends, and help them, and get that pardon.


Whoops! I totally forgot about fast forwarding for a mid or end credits scene. Now it makes more sense.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Sharon Carter breaking bad ... I get that she was on the run for 5 years and had to do whatever she had to do, but a lot of her story just doesn't make sense.

I did like that bit when she was walking away after getting her pardon and she broke the fourth wall.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

Shouldn't that be Captain America and the White Wolf? Bucky finished the book, but is there more he still needs to do (in his mind) to finally be rid of the Winter Soldier? I mean, he did mention being the White Wolf, in a conversation with Sam, in an early episode.


----------



## Bill Reeves (Jul 18, 2002)

morac said:


> What happened to the guy that fell into the river? Was he in the van that blew up?


After Sam gave his speech to the bigwigs, some cop-person came up to him and said "hey, can you help us get the guy who fell in the river?" and Sam flew off to go do that. I don't recall if Sam pulled him out and put him on the van with the other super flag smashers - if he did, that wasn't shown, and I wasn't keeping track of how many super flag smashers were still around - I think there were three that got caught by Walker and Barnes, but there were four on the van that Zemo's butler blew up, so maybe the river guy was the fourth, or maybe I miscounted.


----------



## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

So, looks like we're getting another Captain America movie with Sam as Cap.

Captain America 4 in the Works with Malcolm Spellman Co-Writing - /Film (slashfilm.com)


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Overall I think the weakest parts of the show were the things I cared the least about.

The Flag Smashers were just the Mcguffin to set all of this in motion. Yah, Sam cared too much about saving Karli, but that's in his nature.

People are complaining that all of a sudden John Walker is good again, but is he? He's joining some nebulous group of people, that we are pretty sure are going to be bad guys.

All the stuff I cared about, Sam getting the shield, Bucky redeeming himself was good, and the Isiah Bradley stuff great.

-smak-


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> People are complaining that all of a sudden John Walker is good again, but is he? He's joining some nebulous group of people, that we are pretty sure are going to be bad guys.


And Walker was never really bad (or good); he was just the kind of soldier who was completely wrong for the role of Captain America.

Black ops type guys shouldn't be out in public. A lesson he doesn't seem to have learned.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And Walker was never really bad (or good); he was just the kind of soldier who was completely wrong for the role of Captain America.
> 
> Black ops type guys shouldn't be out in public. A lesson he doesn't seem to have learned.


By all accounts he was very good before donning the suit.

I am curious how long it took to pick him. They probably took any psychological analysis that he had when joining the army and just applied it to this, but as we saw this was a whole different thing.

He just wasn't cut out for this, but might be as something new.

-smak-


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

The wakanda suit is def better, it’s obviously nanotech, he even had the ability to summon more than one redwing at once.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I thought it was an awesome episode and I'm sorry the season is over.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> The wakanda suit is def better, it's obviously nanotech, he even had the ability to summon more than one redwing at once.


I think we were maybe forgetting that Black Panther is not dead. So maybe wakanda isn't going to give Falcon all the latest black panther tech.

I think if it has nanotechnology and he can wear the suit all the time, it's pretty sweet.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

smak said:


> By all accounts he was very good before donning the suit.
> 
> I am curious how long it took to pick him. They probably took any psychological analysis that he had when joining the army and just applied it to this, but as we saw this was a whole different thing.
> 
> ...


Was he that good?
Certainly he "roid raged" out and murdered that Flag Smasher.
And yes, he redeemed himself some by choosing to try and save the hostages instead of seeking vengeance.

Buuuutttttt....... there's that talk he had with Lemar about the mission in Afghanistan that got them their last medals.
It's very strongly implied that it wasn't a "good" mission.
But since they have future plans for the character......

(In the comics, even after Walker becomes US Agent, he's still on the psychotic side.)

I enjoyed the episode quite a bit.
Some minor complaints previously mentioned, especially with Sharon being the Power Broker.
They're going to have to explain that one more in the future.

Hopefully they can work on Sam's Captain America costume some to make it look better.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, Sharon being a flat-out villain is something I just can't accept.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I was underwhelmed by the finale. I thought the new Cap suit was very cool, but the plot and the overall fights were kind of meh. And Sharon as Power Broker just doesn't sit right. We all saw it coming, but I was hoping they'd veer at the last minute so it wouldn't seem so sloppy. Nope, they just steered right into the sloppy. That's not very Marvel-like.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Having Sharon assume the role of villain doesn't seem possible given her heritage. I think there's more to this than meets the eye. My guess is that she's actually undercover and just playing the role to lure in bigger fish. At least that's what I'm hoping. She's supposed to be one of the good guys.

The jury's still out on John Walker. I believe they said in an earlier episode that the super soldier serum just makes you more of who you actually are so it would appear that he was a bit on the homicidal side to begin with. I'm not sure what the deal is with him and Mary Louise Dreyfus other than her having some kind of agenda to promote Walker.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Having Sharon assume the role of villain doesn't seem possible given her heritage. I think there's more to this than meets the eye. My guess is that she's actually undercover and just playing the role to lure in bigger fish. At least that's what I'm hoping. She's supposed to be one of the good guys.


That would be nice, but that smirk on her face at the end suggests that she really is happy to have pulled one over on everybody, and eager to continue with her life of crime. I agree that if that's the case, they have ruined the character for no good reason.


mr.unnatural said:


> The jury's still out on John Walker. I believe they said in an earlier episode that the super soldier serum just makes you more of who you actually are so it would appear that he was a bit on the homicidal side to begin with. I'm not sure what the deal is with him and Mary Louise Dreyfus other than her having some kind of agenda to promote Walker.


Which reminds me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus did NOT impress me. She was hamming it up like this was an episode of Veep. If she's going to be an ongoing MCU baddie, I hope she gets her acting act together before her next appearances...

(But at least they got around her having to have an Italian accent by making the character American...)


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which reminds me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus did NOT impress me. She was hamming it up like this was an episode of Veep. If she's going to be an ongoing MCU baddie, I hope she gets her acting act together before her next appearances...
> 
> (But at least they got around her having to have an Italian accent by making the character American...)


I'm going to assume that she gave the director exactly what he asked for.

Do we know any of what was written on Isaiah Bradley's plaque? Would it have mentioned him as a Super Soldier?


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which reminds me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus did NOT impress me. She was hamming it up like this was an episode of Veep. If she's going to be an ongoing MCU baddie, I hope she gets her acting act together before her next appearances...
> 
> (But at least they got around her having to have an Italian accent by making the character American...)


Heh. Not all of us have overt accents when speaking another language. Or at least, I have fooled people on the phone for several minutes. And she is a Contessa, which is an Italian thing.

Maybe we'll learn more about her background in Black Widow. Rumor has it she's in that one, and the original release schedule would have given us more information about her by now. I've read that the original Contessa in the books was an Italian jet-setter aristocrat and also at one time or another...


Spoiler



an Italian espionage agent, a SHIELD agent, a Nick Fury love interest, a captive of the Skrulls and impersonated by a Skrull, a Russian sleeper agent, a Hydra leader, and member of a team of villains led by none other than Sharon Carter.



All or none of which may or may not happen in the MCU. Looking forward to the BW movie.










References: 
Valentina de Fontaine (Character) - Comic Vine
Marvel Has Big Plans for Julia Louis-Dreyfus


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Having Sharon assume the role of villain doesn't seem possible given her heritage. I think there's more to this than meets the eye. My guess is that she's actually undercover and just playing the role to lure in bigger fish. At least that's what I'm hoping. She's supposed to be one of the good guys.


There are some people elsewhere that are guessing that perhaps she could be a Skrull, and that could be leading towards the events of "Secret Invasion."


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Maybe Sharon is a Skrull which will be revealed in Secret Invasion. But i can see that being a fugitive from justice + doing what she needed to do to survive during the Blip could turn her bad.

How does Contessa Val have the power to clear out the Senate room and to get John Walker reinstated? They really don’t say. I think she may be the head of SHIELD while Fury is away (and secretly a HYDRA double agent).

EDIT: I didn’t Smeek Loadstar it was a simultaneous post.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

If the Sharon we saw in this is Skrull, where is the real Sharon?


----------



## spear (Oct 11, 2006)

cheesesteak said:


> [...]
> Do we know any of what was written on Isaiah Bradley's plaque? Would it have mentioned him as a Super Soldier?


Yes, according to this:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/mwpe35/the_falcon_and_the_winter_soldier_s01e06/gvjlbbx


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LoadStar said:


> There are some people elsewhere that are guessing that perhaps she could be a Skrull, and that could be leading towards the events of "Secret Invasion."


Haven't we established that MCU doesn't do twists?


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

It was meh..
Fight sequences went on far too long.

The tired trope of the hero doing everything they can to bring in peacefully a murderous villain, while the villain keeps killing. It's why I stopped watching The Flash. Eventually your incompetence to stop the bad guy with a high kill count, to uphold your moral code is just causing more innocent death to happen at their hands. All while patting yourself on the back for being the good guys.

Sharon Carter being a bad guy, or at least undercover, needs some exposition.

I'm okay with John Walker getting a kind of redemption at the end knowing full well he'll go dark later, I mean killing someone in public is a bad image for "Captain America" and he was totally a bad fit for the job That said the Flag Smashers were actively trying to kill Walker and when Lemar was killed, everyone paused with this "oh shoot" face, like the killing of anyone was not what they were trying to do, like it was all a game and a bad accident just happened. A lot of good villains think they're the good guy and having become US Agent in this way a ways reinforces he's not bad, just bad at being Captain America.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robojerk said:


> A lot of good villains think they're the good guy and having become US Agent in this way a ways reinforces he's not bad, just bad at being Captain America.


Well, he's a brutal murderer. If that's not bad, I guess I concede your point...


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

He saw him kill one person who was trying to kill him, involved in a group that killed others, and the person we saw him kill participated in his friends death which made Walker emotional.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

This show should've had a flash back episode to make the Flash Smashers more empathetic. It also could've shown us more life during the blip.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robojerk said:


> He saw him kill one person who was trying to kill him, involved in a group that killed others, and the person we saw him kill participated in his friends death which made Walker emotional.


Being emotional doesn't make him any less of a brutal murderer.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> How does Contessa Val have the power to clear out the Senate room and to get John Walker reinstated? They really don't say. I think she may be the head of SHIELD while Fury is away (and secretly a HYDRA double agent).


What SHIELD?
Captain America demolished SHIELD and the organization was formally disbanded in Winter Soldier.
(Reminder: the Feige productions have completely ignored the Agents of SHIELD tv series.)

However, it's quite possible that the Contessa is a member of something like the Commission on Superhuman Activities.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> What SHIELD?
> Captain America demolished SHIELD and the organization was formally disbanded in Winter Soldier.
> (Reminder: the Feige productions have completely ignored the Agents of SHIELD tv series.)
> 
> However, it's quite possible that the Contessa is a member of something like the Commission on Superhuman Activities.


Well, in Agents of SHIELD, after Winter Soldier SHIELD was basically a rogue operation. So it existed, but was nothing that would have been able to pull off what the Veep is doing.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

vertigo235 said:


> The wakanda suit is def better, it's obviously nanotech, he even had the ability to summon more than one redwing at once.


He had 2 redwings during wakanda fight at the barrier in Infinity War.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, in Agents of SHIELD, after Winter Soldier SHIELD was basically a rogue operation. So it existed, but was nothing that would have been able to pull off what the Veep is doing.


But then it got reinstated as a "official" agency with Jeff Mace installed as Director.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

TonyD79 said:


> Haven't we established that MCU doesn't do twists?


Some people here have said as much, but that doesn't make it true.

In Spider-Man Far From Home ...



Spoiler



Nick Fury and Maria Hill turned out to be Skrulls. While a few astute viewers may have been suspicious when Hill called Fury by his first name early in the movie, the credits reveal scene definitely counted as a plot twist. It was such a twist, in fact, it caused some people to question if Nick Fury had been a Skrull the entire time he's been in the MCU. I think most agree it was limited to the scope of this movie, though.



Anyway, back to regularly scheduled Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

That’s an end credit scene. 

Anything Goes in the credits. 

But in the actual show. To finish the current storyline they don’t do surprise endings or twists.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

hapster85 said:


> Some people here have said as much, but that doesn't make it true.
> 
> In Spider-Man Far From Home ...
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Maria called him Nick in Infinity War also, before they crashed into an empty car.


Agent 13 being a skrull makes the only sense..but I guess we'll see.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

smak said:


> That's an end credit scene.
> 
> Anything Goes in the credits.
> 
> But in the actual show. To finish the current storyline they don't do surprise endings or twists.


Sometimes they're teasers of things to come; "we found Thor's hammer"; "I'll do it myself" etc. Sometimes they're just extra nuggets, like eating shawarma. But it's not like they're blooper reels or alternate endings.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

secondclaw said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Maria called him Nick in Infinity War also, before they crashed into an empty car.





Spoiler



As many times as I've seen it, I had not caught that. So that would mean Hill and Fury had been Skrulls a lot longer than just the scope of the most recent Spider-Man. Now I'm going to have to rewatch infinity War and Endgame. Lol


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

spear said:


> Yes, according to this:
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/mwpe35/the_falcon_and_the_winter_soldier_s01e06/gvjlbbx


Thanks for this.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

hapster85 said:


> Some people here have said as much, but that doesn't make it true.
> 
> In Spider-Man Far From Home ...
> 
> ...





Spoiler



The reason that Nick Fury had to be a Skrull was because otherwise, you spend the last third of the movie wondering why Fury the Master Spy who background checks every one, actually fell for Mysterio's con.
I myself was dinging the movie for that until that end credit scene.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

Spoiler






JYoung said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That doesn't really make it less of a twist. I mean, even with Marvel's reputation of including credit scenes, lots of people leave as soon as the credits begin to role. Those people have no clue Fury and Hill were Skrulls unless they hear about somewhere else.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)




----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I had no idea this series had mid credit scenes until I stumbled upon episode 5's.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I like how Sharon disappears for years, re-appears and the govt gives her back a spy job with out any sort of clearance investigation. "Good to have you back! What have you been up to the last few years? Oh heck never mind, here's all our secrets. Let's do lunch!"


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Season Finale Exit Survey



> Ramgopal: How do the physics of the shield work? How does a plastic chair stop it? Please, make it make sense.


----------



## ehusen (Jan 7, 2002)

robojerk said:


> The tired trope of the hero doing everything they can to bring in peacefully a murderous villain, while the villain keeps killing. It's why I stopped watching The Flash. Eventually your incompetence to stop the bad guy with a high kill count, to uphold your moral code is just causing more innocent death to happen at their hands. All while patting yourself on the back for being the good guys.


I snickered to myself when I read this. I quit watching Flash for the exact same reason. I was yelling at the tv "Just take him out, Barry!". I understand the life is sacrosanct and should not be taken lightly. Which is exactly why you remove a dangerous threat, even if you have to kill. Because if you let them go, every person they kill after that is on you.

I think Carrie was less evil than some of the cartoon villains in Flash (heck some of them basically said they would never stop killing and Flash just lets them go anyway.). Yes, she was a terrorist but some would have called her a freedom fighter. I'm okay with her portrayal.

Didn't like Carter as the Power Broker. Her actions seem illogical if she was and there was really no point in the story to having her as the Power Broker. Plus the actress is just way too much of the "spunky cutie" to be believed as the evil super villain. She just cannot do menacing. 

I understand John Walker's behavior. He's a soldier, highly trained at killing, hyped up on super serum, and his best friend just got killed by the Flag Smashers. I can quite easily see him going off in a murderous rage. It was a brutal killing, but the guy that was killed was part of a terrorist agency that killed innocents. Honestly, this scene was one of the most powerful in the series. I'm surprised that Disney+ let Marvel go that dark on their streaming service.

The ending was okay, I'm glad that Bucky got some closure.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

ehusen said:


> I snickered to myself when I read this. I quit watching Flash for the exact same reason. I was yelling at the tv "Just take him out, Barry!". I understand the life is sacrosanct and should not be taken lightly. Which is exactly why you remove a dangerous threat, even if you have to kill. Because if you let them go, every person they kill after that is on you.


I think this concept was done better on this show vs The Flash because the villains weren't too over the top powerful and killing at will, sometimes large groups of random people. Then Team Flash patting themselves on the back about how only they can stop said baddie and do it while keeping their high morals.

I could easily see Chris Evan's CA saying with a lot more convincing charisma how these people are terrorists, but they are being so marginalized by the system he does see value in their cause so he'd rather bring them in peacefully to engage in dialogue. Sam's speech at the end, yeah he was right, but it needed better dialogue than just "do better" to land that charismatic punch they were going for.

If the writers had The FS (Flag Smashers) stay the course a few more episodes just stealing supplies to help the displaced, no one being murdered by them, kept them the Robin Hood type, then Walker snapping after taking the syrum and he is the one who initiates the escalation out of frustration of having imposter syndrome, and/or Lemar being murdered just by accident by a FS while attempting to apprehend the bad guys instead of the murder/stab trap we saw, that could have been the catylist to push them into more extreme tactics feeling like their days were numbered and might as well take out the GRC and the new CA with them. I think the empathy of Sam wanting to save Karli would've been more justified then. Instead it felt like they wanted to show us the viewers that Sam was passing some test, how he is the one who should be carrying the shield not falling for Zemo's push to Sam with the "She's too far gone and must be killed" speech and Walker yelling about how they're murderous terrorists who shouldn't be handled with kids gloves and just need to be stopped because that's how he perceived the mission. However they were murderers at this point and they continued to try to kill others. If Walker hadn't taken the syrum, during the murder/stab trap he would've died, and in a way Sam would've been at fault for not stopping a violent lethal terrorist group when he had the chance.


----------



## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

ehusen said:


> Didn't like Carter as the Power Broker. Her actions seem illogical if she was and there was really no point in the story to having her as the Power Broker. Plus the actress is just way too much of the "spunky cutie" to be believed as the evil super villain. She just cannot do menacing.


I agree that her actions were illogical. But I thought she did a good job playing the hey-you-know-me-I'm-nice-but-secretly-not-so-much-now character. Not much smiling, and her facial expressions and demeanor during phone call while walking away from the job reinstatement were awesome. I think she can do it.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

martinp13 said:


> I agree that her actions were illogical. But I thought she did a good job playing the hey-you-know-me-I'm-nice-but-secretly-not-so-much-now character. Not much smiling, and her facial expressions and demeanor during phone call while walking away from the job reinstatement were awesome. I think she can do it.


I agree with ehusen...I thought her expression and mannerisms looked less like a bad girl revealing herself than a good girl trying to look like a bad girl, and not doing a very good job of it.


----------



## ehusen (Jan 7, 2002)

Yeah I won't try to fault Emily VanCamp's acting but her looks just evoke too much of "she is such a sweet and charming girl, I just want to pinch her cheek" in me.

It's like a "Gidget goes Bad!" movie.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> The 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Season Finale Exit Survey







Spider-Man: "That thing does not obey the laws of physics at all."


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

ehusen said:


> Carrie


Karli: Good acting by Erin Kellyman, good stunt double work by Hannah Scott who has quite a long list of credits.


----------



## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

ehusen said:


> Yeah I won't try to fault Emily VanCamp's acting but her looks just evoke too much of "she is such a sweet and charming girl, I just want to pinch her cheek" in me.
> 
> It's like a "Gidget goes Bad!" movie.


Not a lot of audience crossover between this show & Revenge, I guess.


----------



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> The 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Season Finale Exit Survey


I wasn't as down on the series as they were as I liked the beginning and middle. It was the last two episodes that were kinda muddled, IMO. They do bring up a good point about the Flag Smashers. It's not exactly clear what their goals were. At least with Zemo, you knew where he stood and what his vision was.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

On reddit some people thought the writers missed an opportunity to combine the Flag Smashers dilemma with Sam's family dilemma. Like what if the boat his sister had was purchased during the blip because it's owner had disappeared and her business relied on it, but now the owner who has more money and power was demanding it back and the banks were siding with the original owner. This would've made the post blip world look more chaotic to us viewers, also not leave us wondering why the Stark family weren't helping the Avengers financial needs as it seemed Tony did often.

But then I guess then you couldn't have a montage of community rallying behind Sam and his sister as they fix it.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

There is one missed story opportunity I want to comment on.

Ever since Avengers: Endgame, it's been obvious to me that Bucky knew ahead of time that Old Steve was going to give Sam the shield and mantle.

When Young Steve is about to get on the Time Platform and he and Steve say goodbye, he's acting like it's the last time he's going to see Steve.

And then when old Steve appears, not only is Bucky the first one to notice, he doesn't seem to be particularly surprised.

Then he tells Sam to go talk to old Steve and he nods at Sam approvingly when Steve offers him the shield and Sam hesitates.

And then in episode 5, Bucky mentions the fact that he and Steve talked about giving the shield to Sam.

Exactly when and where did this happen and when and how did the shield get fixed?
It seems to me that there's a story to be told here.


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

It wasn’t onscreen but they discussed it and that is why Bucky said “I’m going to miss you buddy.” in the scene before he leaves. Maybe they will tie it up in a flash back later but who knows.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

From the way old Steve talked to Sam, I got the impression that he didn't make the decision to stay in the past until after he got into the Quantum Tunnel.

And that still doesn't explain how the shield got fixed.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

JYoung said:


> From the way old Steve talked to Sam, I got the impression that he didn't make the decision to stay in the past until after he got into the Quantum Tunnel.
> 
> And that still doesn't explain how the shield got fixed.


It's not the same shield. It's a shield from somewhere in the past 70+ years.

Steve doesn't take the shield back with him.

Whatever's left of it.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

smak said:


> It's not the same shield. It's a shield from somewhere in the past 70+ years.
> 
> Steve doesn't take the shield back with him.
> 
> Whatever's left of it.


I know he didn't have it when picked up Mjolnir and hit the Quantum Tunnel.

So he picked one up at "Shields R Us"?
Bed Bath and Shields?
Home Shields?
Lance Hunter's Shield Emporium?
Wakanda One Imports?

Or is there a Cap out in the Multiverse wondering who stole his shield?

Or maybe he stopped by Public Storage on the way to the clearing and picked it up?


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I know he didn't have it when picked up Mjolnir and hit the Quantum Tunnel?
> 
> So he picked one up at "Shields R Us"?
> 
> Or is there a Cap out in the Multiverse wondering who stole his shield?


Peggy can probably go find him one. Or get one made.


----------



## ehusen (Jan 7, 2002)

The first time I watched Endgame I did think that it was kind of unfair that Steve game the shield to Sam instead of Bucky. I mean Bucky has the super soldier serum, a super duper vibranium arm, and was Steve's lifelong friend.

After watching the FAWS series, I went back and watched the end scene in Endgame. With my new contextual knowledge I really picked up on Bucky and Steve's mannerisms/communications. Now it seems obvious that Bucky knew what Steve was going to do all along and my have even suggested it to him. 

As for getting a new shield, heck Howard Stark could have made him a new one. Or the Wakandans.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ehusen said:


> The first time I watched Endgame I did think that it was kind of unfair that Steve game the shield to Sam instead of Bucky. I mean Bucky has the super soldier serum, a super duper vibranium arm, and was Steve's lifelong friend.


Then again, Sam has the advantage of not having been a Soviet assassin for decades...


----------



## ehusen (Jan 7, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then again, Sam has the advantage of not having been a Soviet assassin for decades...


Well I didn't claim that I had thought it all the way through at the time.  And don't we all have some baggage?


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I'm fine with Sam being the new Captain, however if it were Bucky then you could say that every Captain America movie made and planned so far is about Bucky.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

ehusen said:


> Well I didn't claim that I had thought it all the way through at the time.  And don't we all have some baggage?


Not like that.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then again, Sam has the advantage of not having been a Soviet assassin for decades...


Yes. There's a difference between pardoning him, even accepting him, and him being Captain America.

-smak-


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> Yes. There's a difference between pardoning him, even accepting him, and him being Captain America.
> 
> -smak-


Ironically, in the comics he was Cap before Sam was.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Funny commentary about EVC's villainous turn - I'm in the "camp" (hahaha) that just doesn't buy her as a maniacal double-crossing overload. The above comment is exactly how I feel - she feels like a "good guy" trying to act bad, as opposed to bad guy living a double life. I totally get where the writing is at - I think it's a cool thing to explore, especially given the whimsical vibes the MCU usually has... but I don't buy this character or her portrayer at all. 

I actually don't really understand why she didn't get pardoned, other than "we want to shock the audience by turning a good character bad"... It makes no sense that every other hero who escaped the Raft and went on the run was fully pardoned but not her. Especially Bucky, who not only CAUSED all the chaos in Civil War, but has a 70 year history as an assassin who committed countless murders and crimes against the state. Sure he was brainwashed, but he gets a full and complete pardon, while she has to live on the run for stealing a shield? An act that eventually lead to the saving of HALF OF ALL LIFE IN EXISTENCE? lol.. I don't know... in my opinion it's a rare weak spot in the MCU. It's just "hey we like this actress and it would be so shocking if this episode ended like this!", as opposed to something that actually made organic sense. 

I like Sam as Cap, and definitely think he embodies it more than post-assassin Bucky. I like that the show leaned into the racial aspect and confronted it head on instead of shying away. And like someone else said, I was also surprised that they didn't create higher stakes by linking the Flag Smasher ideals to Sam's family's plight. 

My favorite aspect of the show was the further exploration of the impacts of The Blip. In my opinion, that's the coolest, most unique avenue the MCU can explore because it's never been done before, as opposed to all the other stuff that's kind of rehashing over and over. I think exploring the real-world ramifications of half the planet disappearing at once, then reappearing five years later, is awesome and I hope they do more of it. I bothered me a bit that Spider Man 2 was just business as usual aside from maybe three mentions... The world would be fundamentally and utterly changed and as a movie nerd, all those avenues are interested to me and I hope they delve more into it instead of side-stepping it.


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

mrdazzo7 said:


> My favorite aspect of the show was the further exploration of the impacts of The Blip. In my opinion, that's the coolest, most unique avenue the MCU can explore because it's never been done before, as opposed to all the other stuff that's kind of rehashing over and over. I think exploring the real-world ramifications of half the planet disappearing at once, then reappearing five years later, is awesome and I hope they do more of it. I bothered me a bit that Spider Man 2 was just business as usual aside from maybe three mentions... The world would be fundamentally and utterly changed and as a movie nerd, all those avenues are interested to me and I hope they delve more into it instead of side-stepping it.


In both cases, the ramifications of The Blip were kept in context. Avenger or not, Peter is still a high schooler, so the impact is shown from that point of view. Made perfect sense that teenagers would be fixated things like repeating classes, retaking midterms, so-and-so's brother now being older than so-and-so, etc. Not to mention they only had a couple of hours to work with.

By contrast, Falcon and Winter Soldier not only had nearly 6 hours, but the impact was of The Blip was central to the story. So of course they explored it more in depth. Assuming this show has more seasons, will likely see even more of it going forward.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

hapster85 said:


> Assuming this show has more seasons, will likely see even more of it going forward.


More movies actually. 
'Captain America 4' In Development With 'Falcon And The Winter Soldier' EP Malcolm Spellman Writing - Deadline


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I'm not convinced that ramifications of the blip were adequately explored in this show. They were mostly just glossed over. Yea there are problems, and these problems are somehow addressed by GRC, not to everyone's satisfaction. Really, a long running series would be able to surface all the fascinating social and political changes that the blip has brought. This show wasn't it.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

secondclaw said:


> I'm not convinced that ramifications of the blip were adequately explored in this show. They were mostly just glossed over. Yea there are problems, and these problems are somehow addressed by GRC, not to everyone's satisfaction. *Really, a long running series would be able to surface all the fascinating social and political changes that the blip has brought*. This show wasn't it.


Yeah.. This is a sentiment I have heard from many. Its been mentioned here in this thread and in the WandaVision thread too.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Color me unenthusiastic about a series based on the Blip. I can live without more Karli Morgenthaus.

I'd never heard of Wyatt Russell before this show and wouldn't care if he doesn't come back. Just recast the role.
Wyatt Russell Says He Might Not Return to the MCU As John Walker After 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier'


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Color me unenthusiastic about a series based on the Blip. I can live without more Karli Morgenthaus.
> 
> I'd never heard of Wyatt Russell before this show and wouldn't care if he doesn't come back. Just recast the role.
> Wyatt Russell Says He Might Not Return to the MCU As John Walker After 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier'


That article reads (at least to me) more like the actor is fine coming back but it isn't for sure yet that Marvel is going to continue the character. Or rather there is nothing known either way and Marvel makes decisions like that later.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Color me unenthusiastic about a series based on the Blip. I can live without more Karli Morgenthaus.
> 
> I'd never heard of Wyatt Russell before this show and wouldn't care if he doesn't come back. Just recast the role.
> Wyatt Russell Says He Might Not Return to the MCU As John Walker After 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier'


Why would a blip show involve Karli?


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

I need the MCU to focus on politics like I need a Hulk smash of my car.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

There are lots and lots of things they could do that didn't involve the politics.

That said, I wouldn't be so bothered by it if they had some of that in there. We've gotten a taste of politics in MCU in the past.


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

I’m just saying I’m happy with the way they handled the blip. I’m sure there will me more references and other things that come to light. I do not need a long running series that the blip is the focus.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

pkscout said:


> That article reads (at least to me) more like the actor is fine coming back but it isn't for sure yet that Marvel is going to continue the character. Or rather there is nothing known either way and Marvel makes decisions like that later.


There's no way they just spent all these episodes exploring John Walker, then at the end had Contessa give him the title of another Marvel character (U.S. Agent) only to then completely abandon the character and do nothing with it. It's probably more a matter of Wyatt Russell wasn't as well received as Marvel had anticipated, so there's internal talk of recasting the character for upcoming projects, and his agents are getting ahead of the problem by making it sound like if he doesn't come back it was because he chose not to.


Random User 7 said:


> I'm just saying I'm happy with the way they handled the blip. I'm sure there will me more references and other things that come to light. I do not need a long running series that the blip is the focus.


I think it would be really interesting to see a series detailing the Blip and all the problems created by it. It wouldn't even have to have any of the Marvel superheroes. Maybe it could just be completely adjacent with references to the heroes and to what happened, but have the show focus on the day-to-day issues faced by the normal people, without having the solution to every problem be a big superhero battle.


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

I do like that idea if they decide to do something.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think it would be really interesting to see a series detailing the Blip and all the problems created by it. It wouldn't even have to have any of the Marvel superheroes. Maybe it could just be completely adjacent with references to the heroes and to what happened, but have the show focus on the day-to-day issues faced by the normal people, without having the solution to every problem be a big superhero battle.


i've wanted a blip show forever, ask @jsmeeker

It should be what you say above, but they could add a few storylines for MCU characters we know weren't blipped. Aunt May, Sharon Carter, etc..Even Maria Rambeau,

Maybe a few people get one show, like Cassie Lang.

-smak-


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

By the way, what are we calling the blip? The Hulk snap?

Because I'm really talking about the Thanos snap, and what happened in those 5 years.

But I'm crazy like that, I also want something to tell the story of what happened right after the Hulk snap, and before the final End Game battle.

And of course, Steve Rogers returning the stones.

-smak-


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

smak said:


> By the way, what are we calling the blip? The Hulk snap?
> 
> Because I'm really talking about the Thanos snap, and what happened in those 5 years.
> 
> ...


I think the Snap is when half the population disappeared. The Blip refers to half the population coming back. I agree that any show specifically produced about this topic should cover the ramifications and issues related to both.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I thought "the blip" meant the 5 year span covering both disappearance and reappearance. Encompassing everything.

I'm wrong.
Blip
https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Blip
Or was I?


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think the Snap is when half the population disappeared. The Blip refers to half the population coming back.


The MCU overlords would say that's technically correct. The Snap is when people vanished, the Blip is when people returned. However - they have not consistently referred to it that way, and in at least two cases characters have referred to the Blip more as the timeframe between the Snap and Return. Thus, even in the MCU universe, there's a difference between technically correct, and common convention.



DevdogAZ said:


> I agree that any show specifically produced about this topic should cover the ramifications and issues related to both.


Yup.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

robojerk said:


> I thought "the blip" meant the 5 year span covering both disappearance and reappearance. Encompassing everything.


Yeah, it looks like you're right and I was wrong:

The Blip - Wikipedia


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yeah, it looks like you're right and I was wrong:
> 
> The Blip - Wikipedia


Ughh. I don't know. I just conceded you were right. ☺


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Kevin Feige later clarified that "the Snap" referred to Thanos' finger snap in _Avengers: Infinity War_ while "the Blip" referred to Bruce Banner's finger snap in _Avengers: Endgame_.

-smak-


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

what do they call Tony's finger snap?


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

There could be some part of the Hawkeye show that lets us see some of the 5 year time period.

-smak-


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> what do they call Tony's finger snap?


gg Thanos


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

I’d love a new Hulk movie covering Smart Hulk. They could actually just cover all the leftover Avengers during that time.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Random User 7 said:


> I'd love a new Hulk movie covering Smart Hulk. They could actually just cover all the leftover Avengers during that time.


Still don't know why universal doesn't do a deal like Sony did with Spider-Man.

They seem to have just memory holed it. They don't even allow it to be streamed


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Does Universal still have rights to do "stand alone" Hulk movies? Does Marvel Studios/Disney have that right?


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

jsmeeker said:


> Does Universal still have rights to do "stand alone" Hulk movies? Does Marvel Studios/Disney have that right?


I think Marvel reacquired the rights last year.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

robojerk said:


> I think Marvel reacquired the rights last year.


I think that was a rumor.

The Only thing Marvel can't do is a solo hulk movie. He can be in other movies and tv shows.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

smak said:


> I think that was a rumor.
> 
> The Only thing Marvel can't do is a solo hulk movie. He can be in other movies and tv shows.


yeah... thats what I mean by "stand alone". Where it's a Hulk movie (i.e. the main character, like in say "Spiderman:Homecoming")


----------



## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> yeah... thats what I mean by "stand alone". Where it's a Hulk movie (i.e. the main character, like in say "Spiderman:Homecoming")


Last I remember, Marvel Studios could produce a movie, but Universal would get the distribution rights to it if they wanted. Marvel can freely use the character in other movies without cutting Universal in so there's really no incentive to make a solo Hulk movie.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

realityboy said:


> Last I remember, Marvel Studios could produce a movie, but Universal would get the distribution rights to it if they wanted. Marvel can freely use the character in other movies without cutting Universal in so there's really no incentive to make a solo Hulk movie.


You would think money for Universal, but I don't know what they are thinking.

-smak-


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> You would think money for Universal, but I don't know what they are thinking.
> 
> -smak-


I think all Universal has at this point is distribution rights. So they can't MAKE a Hulk movie; they only get the distribution if Marvel makes one. And as RB said, Marvel has no incentive because their take would be watered down too much by having to turn it over to Universal when it's finished.

(Which is why when Marvel did make a Hulk movie--Planet Hulk--they disguised it as a Thor movie--Ragnarok.)


----------



## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

robojerk said:


> I thought "the blip" meant the 5 year span covering both disappearance and reappearance. Encompassing everything.
> 
> I'm wrong.
> Blip
> ...


That's how I take it, The Blip is everything, and seems to how most characters refer to it.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Even the first time we heard of the blip, by Betty Brant in Far From Home, it wasn't even clear.

"Over 5 years ago half of all life in the universe was wiped, then 8 months ago brave heroes brought us back.

They called it the blip."

Which part Betty? The 5 years? The blip away, the blip back, or all 3?

-smak-


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

What does she know? She's just reading some copy someone else wrote


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> What does she know? She's just reading some copy someone else wrote


Are you saying Betty can't write her own copy . She did eventually work for The Daily Bugle.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

There’s a behind the scenes “Assembled” video up for F&TWS.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

morac said:


> There's a behind the scenes "Assembled" video up for F&TWS.


I just came here to post that. It was great!


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Watched the trailer, and had not realized part of the filming was in PR!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

eddyj said:


> Watched the trailer, and had not realized part of the filming was in PR!


It wasn't...they were going to, but then the earthquakes hit so they went to Prague instead.

I was a little surprised to see that Madripoor was a small town outside Atlanta!


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It wasn't...they were going to, but then the earthquakes hit so they went to Prague instead.
> 
> I was a little surprised to see that Madripoor was a small town outside Atlanta!


Ah, the trailer seemed to imply there were scenes in both locations that had to be made seem to be the same place.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

eddyj said:


> Ah, the trailer seemed to imply there were scenes in both locations that had to be made seem to be the same place.


What they actually said in the show was that they had to prepare scenes in PR to blend in with scenes that were being filmed in Atlanta, and then at the last minute they had to pivot to blending in scenes from Prague instead of PR, which was a logistical challenge, because, well, Prague ain't PR.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What they actually said in the show was that they had to prepare scenes in PR to blend in with scenes that were being filmed in Atlanta, and then at the last minute they had to pivot to blending in scenes from Prague instead of PR, which was a logistical challenge, because, well, Prague ain't PR.


Both start with a P. Close enough.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

eddyj said:


> Both start with a P. Close enough.


Yeah, all those P-places look alike...


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

It was amazing to learn how many VFX shots the show had. Even things you wouldn't think would be VFX shots like the new Falcon Captain America suit had VFX shots because the suit couldn't exist as it did in real life.

There was some more behind the scenes info in this week's Stuntmen react with Anthony Mackie's stuntman on it.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

MTV Movie & TV Awards 2021
• Best hero - Anthony Mackie (The Falcon And The Winter Soldier)
• Best duo - Anthony Mackie and Sebastian Stan (The Falcon And The Winter Soldier)


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

What is the age range of MTV viewership anymore? I'd imagine it is immature adults 30-50.


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

Random User 7 said:


> What is the age range of MTV viewership anymore? I'd imagine it is immature adults 30-50.


I'm 54 and known to mindlessly watch Ridiculousness in the early AM with some co-workers as their shift ends and mine begins. My wife would argue I'm a big kid. I'd be a fool to dispute her. Lol.


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

I'm early 40s and the last time I watched MTV there was a show about a guy names Puck. It was one of those original reality shows. I saw a few of those clay wrestlers too.


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

Random User 7 said:


> I'm early 40s and the last time I watched MTV there was a show about a guy names Puck. It was one of those original reality shows. I saw a few of those clay wrestlers too.


Celebrity Deathmatch was the bomb.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

"People still watch MTV?"


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## ehusen (Jan 7, 2002)

Sigh, I remember going over to a friend's house during my high school years to see this "really cool new thing called MTV". This is in the days before stereo TVs, much less Dolby 5.1. So they were 'simulcasting' the songs on FM radio so you could listen on your stereo while watching the video. It was radical and awesome and totally cool. 

Has it been almost 40 years? Wow, I feel old now.


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

ehusen said:


> Sigh, I remember going over to a friend's house during my high school years to see this "really cool new thing called MTV". This is in the days before stereo TVs, much less Dolby 5.1. So they were 'simulcasting' the songs on FM radio so you could listen on your stereo while watching the video. It was radical and awesome and totally cool.
> 
> Has it been almost 40 years? Wow, I feel old now.


I have a vivid memory of buying a little box that would decode a stereo signal from the cable signal and then I could run that line-level into my stereo system. I was psyched to use that with MTV.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

astrohip said:


> As someone who's only six movies into the MCU, any thoughts on whether I'll be able to follow this? I enjoyed WV, even though I hadn't seen any of the MCU at the time.
> 
> I have no idea how/where/when this falls into the timeline.


^^^ Another March post. Geez, I was so innocent back then. 

Started this tonight. Obviously I decided to wait until I made it thru all the movies. First two episodes done.

I think this was released an eps a week, so I should be able to figure out how far to read after each one I watch.


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

ehusen said:


> Sigh, I remember going over to a friend's house during my high school years to see this "really cool new thing called MTV". This is in the days before stereo TVs, much less Dolby 5.1. So they were 'simulcasting' the songs on FM radio so you could listen on your stereo while watching the video. It was radical and awesome and totally cool.
> 
> Has it been almost 40 years? Wow, I feel old now.





scooterboy said:


> I have a vivid memory of buying a little box that would decode a stereo signal from the cable signal and then I could run that line-level into my stereo system. I was psyched to use that with MTV.


Back in the Mid 80's/Early 90's time frame I had a large screen (I think 40") CRT TV. while it wasn't stereo it had 3.5mm audio out for headsets and I patched that into my stereo and created a pseudo stereo effect even though both channels were the same source. all my friends thought it was super cool. We didn't have cable, just OTA signal.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Ok, series finished. I liked it. Both Bucky & Sam (well, Stan & Mackie) are engaging actors, which makes it fun to watch. The only disappointment was the final episode. I though it was a bit of a letdown. Each episode kept building, the story got better, more intense, and the the finale just kinda... ended. Carter is bad, Walker comes back without penalty, Karli is a hero... none of this seemed to make sense to me. And I have -no- idea who JLD is supposed to be. I also thought (and I say this as a big JLD fan) that she seemed almost campy in her character. So I guess that's what they were going for? But why?

I thought Zemo was under-used at the end. I had to look up who the old, white guy was that blew up the van (Zemo's steward). It just got a little jumbled for me this episode. Especially having Carter go dark.

Really enjoyed most of the personal interactions, between Sam and his family, Bucky and everyone, even the lectures at the end. They were well-written, and played well. I really like Sebastian Stan, he's a very charismatic actor.

Who the heck is Agent 13 that some of you keep referring to?

This leaves Black Widow as the only core item I haven't watched. I'll wait until it's on D+ gratis. I'm not sending Disney any more of my money to withhold from ScarJo.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

astrohip said:


> Who the heck is Agent 13 that some of you keep referring to?


Agent 13 is Sharon Carter. She was introduced as Agent 13 in Captain America: Winter Soldier. Only later (I don't remember how much later) was she named as Sharon Carter, relative of Peggy Carter.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

kdmorse said:


> Agent 13 is Sharon Carter. She was introduced as Agent 13 in Captain America: Winter Soldier. Only later (I don't remember how much later) was she named as Sharon Carter, relative of Peggy Carter.


Thank you. I don't think A-13 was used as a name in this series, so it didn't click for me.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

kdmorse said:


> Agent 13 is Sharon Carter. She was introduced as Agent 13 in Captain America: Winter Soldier. Only later (I don't remember how much later) was she named as Sharon Carter, relative of Peggy Carter.


Peggy's funeral was during Civil War and that is when they found out who Sharon Carter was.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

astrohip said:


> this seemed to make sense to me. And I have -no- idea who JLD is supposed to be. I also thought (and I say this as a big JLD fan) that she seemed almost campy in her character. So I guess that's what they were going for? But why?


Valentina Allegra de Fontaine ("Val")

She is a thing in the comics (like everyone else). You can go look up stuff.. Or just keep watching MCU.. There is the issue about the release order here, but talking about it more may be "spoilery".


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> Valentina Allegra de Fontaine ("Val")
> 
> She is a thing in the comics (like everyone else). You can go look up stuff.. Or just keep watching MCU.. There is the issue about the release order here, but talking about it more may be "spoilery".


Thanks. I'm guessing


Spoiler



she's in Black Widow, which was supposed to come out well before now. Which would have made her appearance here make more sense.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

astrohip said:


> Thanks. I'm guessing
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Wherever she appeared first she wouldn't have made much sense.


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## hapster85 (Sep 7, 2016)

astrohip said:


> Thanks. I'm guessing
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



She appears in a post credits scene that's more cryptic of who she is than anything in this series.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Thanks, both of you. I'll leave it a mystery for now. At least in my brain.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Just finished watching the last two episodes. Absolutely excellent. Now I have to go back through this thread and see what I missed.


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