# Game of Thrones S8E1 "Winterfell" 4/14/2019



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

No episode title per HBO...
S8E1 "Winterfell"

What a start. I will definitely be watching this again before next week.

Reminder: No discussing the previews for next week, not even in spoilers.

My wife, at the end: "It's over?!? It can't be over, it just started!"


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Reunions! Jon & Sansa, Jon & Arya, Arya & Gendry, Jon & Sam. And the best of all... Jaime and the boy formerly known as Bran. That look!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

So now everyone will think Sam is lying to get revenge for his brother and father?

The only thing I didn't like is Arya and the Hound should have been secretly happy to see each other but the actors didn't portray that at all.

And what happened to Brienne? was she there? if so, I missed it.


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## madmari333 (Sep 24, 2010)

I loved the reunions as well. It is going to be interesting how Jon and Danerys story line progresses


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> The only thing I didn't like is Arya and the Hound should have been secretly happy to see each other but the actors didn't portray that at all.


I got it from the Hound...just a hint at the end. Arya still wants to kill him. I think they were both just about perfect.

Hail, hail, the gang's (almost) all here! But one thing I really miss from when they were still following Martin is that Martin understood the scale of the world, and these people really don't. Things happen, and people get places, way faster than they should. Relatively minor quibble, but I was spoiled by the early seasons when travel actually took time. E.g., Cersei should have given birth or at least be big as a house by now considering how far Jaime has traveled since knocking her up (many months' if not years' worth).

I didn't before, but now I'm starting to accept that the only real solution for Jon and Daenerys is marriage. It really solves all their problems (except for the incest thing).


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I don't think Jon thinks that Sam is lying. And Jon will act differently towards Dany. If I recall, Sam's father and brother were pretty mean to him when he arrived with Gilly.

So is Arya getting a love interest finally...LOL...


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Oh, poor Sam. Heck of a way to find out your family's dead, straight from the Queen who killed them. "Good job, you should be rewarded, by the way, I had my dragon murder your father, and brother".

I think Jamie genuinely thought he'd just be able to show up and change sides like his little brother - until he saw Bran waiting for him.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

kdmorse said:


> I think Jamie genuinely thought he'd just be able to show up and change sides like his little brother - until he saw Bran waiting for him.


I wouldn't be surprised if Bran (or should I say the Three-Eyed Raven) just doesn't care very much. Which would no doubt take everybody else aback...

I suspect his siblings will continue to care very much, however.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

And for a minute there, it felt like a Harry Potter movie. Soaring thru the air on dragons!

"So keep your Queen warm"


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> E.g., Cersei should have given birth or at least be big as a house by now considering how far Jaime has traveled since knocking her up (many months' if not years' worth).


Assuming she was ever actually pregnant to begin with.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Bran (or should I say the Three-Eyed Raven) just doesn't care very much. Which would no doubt take everybody else aback...
> 
> I suspect his siblings will continue to care very much, however.


I don't remember, does anyone other than Bran, Jaime, and Cersei know that Bran fell because Jaime pushed him out the window? Come to think of it, did Bran even remember what had happened to him? I assume he knows now because he can see everything, but I believe he had no memory of it when he regained consciousness.

Of course, pretty much everyone at Winterfell (except perhaps Brienne and Tyrion) have reason to want to kill Jaime anyway.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Reunions! Jon & Sansa, Jon & Arya, Arya & Gendry, Jon & Sam. And the best of all... Jaime and the boy formerly known as Bran. That look!


And how could I forget... Sansa & Tyrion. First time since the Purple Wedding.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Bran (or should I say the Three-Eyed Raven) just doesn't care very much. Which would no doubt take everybody else aback...
> 
> I suspect his siblings will continue to care very much, however.


Agreed. I think Bran is there precisely for that reason; to tell Jaime it's ok. Tyrion will be overjoyed to see his brother and Sansa will be satisfied that she was right about Cersei.

I can't think of his name now...but the sellsword is soon to join Tyrion and Jaime at Winterfell with 2 wagons full of gold


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Agreed. I think Bran is there precisely for that reason; to tell Jaime it's ok. Tyrion will be overjoyed to see his brother and Sansa will be satisfied that she was right about Cersei.
> 
> I can't think of his name now...but the sellsword is soon to join Tyrion and Jaime at Winterfell with 2 wagons full of gold


Bronn


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Great start to the end...
Gotta say, I knew the answer to "What does a dragon eat?" and "What do you hold on to?" (when riding a dragon)


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Anubys said:


> And what happened to Brienne? was she there? if so, I missed it.


Yes, she was in the background at one point.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

If I remember properly, Sam's father was pretty mean to him. I thought Sam should have broken into the happy dance when he found out Dany had killed his father. I can't remember how Sam's brother treated him.

My assumption is that Jon will order Sam to be quiet about the Aegon Targaryen VI thing until later. But somebody should already be curious as to why the dragons like Jon.

Emilia Clarke as Daenerys Targaryen is smokin' hot.

I have a feeling that Cercei's mercenary army will turn on her somehow.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I was surprised to see Tormund and Beric. I was pretty sure they died when the dragon destroyed the Wall at Eastwatch last season.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> If I remember properly, Sam's father was pretty mean to him. I thought Sam should have broken into the happy dance when he found out Dany had killed his father. I can't remember how Sam's brother treated him.


Yes, they were awful to him. When Dany told Sam she had killed his father, Sam said, "Well, at least I'll be able to go home now." But even though they were dicks to him, they're still his family and it's still natural to feel some emotion when learning about their deaths.


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> I don't think Jon thinks that Sam is lying. And Jon will act differently towards Dany. If I recall, Sam's father and brother were pretty mean to him when he arrived with Gilly.
> 
> So is Arya getting a love interest finally...LOL...


Sam's father was very cruel to him, but he did get along well with his brother, sisters and mother.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, they were awful to him. When Dany told Sam she had killed his father, Sam said, "Well, at least I'll be able to go home now." But even though they were dicks to him, they're still his family and it's still natural to feel some emotion when learning about their deaths.


Indeed.

And I wonder if some of his sorrow is in realizing he's now the heir..?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Sam doesn't have to be pardoned, it's his sword now.

I really like how they saved that meeting til the end. Just enough time to forget about about where Jaime was going last season, and then he takes off his hoodie...

I watched the last episode of season 7 just a few hours ago, and still wasn't thinking about him.

-smak-


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

getbak said:


> Of course, pretty much everyone at Winterfell (except perhaps Brienne and Tyrion) have reason to want to kill Jaime anyway.


When (if?) Jaime tells everybody that Cersei isn't sending her army, I'd think that'b be enough of a betrayal of Cersei that they will believe he's there to fight with them.

-smak-


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

wedgecon said:


> Sam's father was very cruel to him, but he did get along well with his brother, sisters and mother.


I will have to watch that episode again, but I remember his brother (different actor?) was a jerk to him. Only his mother and sis were nice and welcoming.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

astrohip said:


> No episode title per HBO...


"Winterfell" is the title.

-smak-


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## tony touch (Jul 16, 2004)

Can't believe there are only 5 episodes remaining.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

My kids watched it live. My wife and I watched it just after 10. One of my daughters (after finishing watching it) said they were all disappointed that nothing happened, CGI budget blown on Jon and Dany flying, etc. Thing is, first episode of every season has been used to set up what is coming, so it's afraid been a bit slow. But we didn't feel at all disappointed (other than when it was over).

Pfft. Millennials.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

smak said:


> When (if?) Jaime tells everybody that Cersei isn't sending her army, I'd think that'b be enough of a betrayal of Cersei that they will believe he's there to fight with them.


Cercei was dumb to let Jaime leave. Now the Super Friends will know of her plans to double cross them. She was also dumb in trusting Bronn to kill her brothers.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

wprager said:


> My kids watched it live. My wife and I watched it just after 10. One of my daughters (after finishing watching it) said they were all disappointed that nothing happened, CGI budget blown on Jon and Dany flying, etc. Thing is, first episode of every season has been used to set up what is coming, so it's afraid been a bit slow. But we didn't feel at all disappointed (other than when it was over).
> 
> Pfft. Millennials.


I thought lots of things happened.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

So, who is Bron going to shoot with that crossbow? I have serious doubts it'll be Jaimie or Tyrion.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> Sam doesn't have to be pardoned, it's his sword now.


But he didn't know that at the moment.


heySkippy said:


> So, who is Bron going to shoot with that crossbow? I have serious doubts it'll be Jaimie or Tyrion.


Cersei would be the obvious candidate, except apparently they're not allowed to be on set at the same time...


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

smak said:


> "Winterfell" is the title.


I'll ask a mod to update it. I even checked again last night on HBO after it aired, and it still reflected a generic title.

HBO is taking this secrecy no-spoiler thing seriously.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Cersei would be the obvious candidate, except apparently they're not allowed to be on set at the same time...


Well, Bronn would waive that clause if it's to kill her 

I thought Dickon (really? your name is Dickon?!) was only mean to Sam to appease his father but that there was genuine love between them.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

I see some kind of split happening. I don't think Dany is going to believe Jon as much as she wants to and as we know Jon is Targaryen he basically now has his own dragon. Night King, Dany and Jon all have a dragon of their own.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I was surprised to see Tormund and Beric. I was pretty sure they died when the dragon destroyed the Wall at Eastwatch last season.


We talked about it at the time...they showed them making it to a part of the wall that remained upright (a la Indiana Jones) just before the other side of the wall collapsed. So we already knew they didn't die.

Another A+ conversation between Tyrion and Varys about making jokes regarding height and balls


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Well, Bronn would waive that clause if it's to kill her


Is he the one making that demand? I just kinda assumed it was her...


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Okay, I'll have to rewatch - but didn't Cersei hand Bron the crossbow in person?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

ADG said:


> Okay, I'll have to rewatch - but didn't Cersei hand Bron the crossbow in person?


No. It was Qyburn


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Tony_T said:


> Great start to the end...
> Gotta say, I knew the answer to "What does a dragon eat?" and "What do you hold on to?" (when riding a dragon)


I watched with my older son, who doesn't watch the show normally and even HE got the right answer for "What does a dragon eat?" It was obvious.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Is he the one making that demand? I just kinda assumed it was her...


I don't know, it just seems like poetic justice that Jaime or Tyrion kill Cersei, but we all know this show always zags when it should zig


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I don't know, it just seems like poetic justice that Jaime or Tyrion kill Cersei, but we all know this show always zags when it should zig


I'm hoping for a Dany "Mother of Dragons" Targaryen v. Cercei "Resting B*tch Face" Lannister steel cage, loser leaves town match. I watched to much pro rasslin' as a kid.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

This show is just mean-spirited enough that I can imagine Cersei ending up on the throne...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Is he the one making that demand? I just kinda assumed it was her...


I was just joking. From what I read, it's in both their contracts.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

So what was special about the crossbow? I think it's the one that Joffrey used to kill Rose; but there's no poetic justice there. Is it also the one Tyrion used to kill Tywin?


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Anubys said:


> So what was special about the crossbow? I think it's the one that Joffrey used to kill Rose; but there's no poetic justice there. Is it also the one Tyrion used to kill Tywin?


Tyrion killed their dad on the chamber pot with it.


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## cl8855 (Jan 2, 2009)

"watch out he has blue eyes!"

"I've always had blue eyes!" quote of the day


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Sansa needs to be the one to end Cercei.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> This show is just mean-spirited enough that I can imagine Cersei ending up on the throne...


And the Night King to kill her and assume the throne...the end.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I bet the dragons - not just Cersei - are disappointed that elephants didn't make the trip with the Golden Company


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> If I remember properly, Sam's father was pretty mean to him. I thought Sam should have broken into the happy dance when he found out Dany had killed his father. I can't remember how Sam's brother treated him.


They both treated him horribly. Dad verbally abused him and sent him off to the Wall. Big Brother was silently complicit and looked down on him. Both thought Sam too weak for their family.

However, Sam is just a good guy. Death of close family will hurt him no matter how horrible they were to him.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I was surprised to see Tormund and Beric. I was pretty sure they died when the dragon destroyed the Wall at Eastwatch last season.


I just finished watching the last episode of the last season a few days ago. Not all that many died when the White Walkers brought down the wall. They took down a really small segment at the coast and didn't dawdle to kill people. Just took down enough to squeeze through and moved South.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I don't think Cersei was really pregnant by Jaime. I wonder if Cersei will get pregnant with Euron's child now? 

Glad to see that Theon rescued Yara. 

Great episode. My only disappointment was that no one died.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

So when Euron Greyjoy said "I'll put a Prince in your belly" she smiled knowingly. What's she plotting there?

1. She might get pregnant and can tell Jaime it's his?
2. She might get pregnant, kill Euron and say it's his?
3. She's already pregnant, and can tell Jaime it's Euron's?
4. She'll find some baby somewhere, kill all the relatives, and pretend she gave birth to it and call it Euron's? Or Jaime's?


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Cersei would be the obvious candidate, except apparently they're not allowed to be on set at the same time...


I suspect he'd be willing to be on the same set if he were allowed to shoot her with a crossbow ...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> I suspect he'd be willing to be on the same set if he were allowed to shoot her with a crossbow ...


But would she agree?


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

So they mention how they're going to have trouble feeding all the soldiers and the dragons, then say that the dragons aren't getting much to eat and aren't happy. So I think Dany and Jon are taking them somewhere to get some chow chow. No, they just go on a long joy ride someplace private to get some nooky! Real nice dragon mom. 

I guess the army of wights don't have to worry about getting food, or sleep, or freezing to death.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

It struck me at the end of the episode when Jaime arrived that they aren't making an effort anymore to make him or Tyrion blondes. I can't remember how long that's been going on with Jaime, but it seems to me that Tyrion has had Peter Dinklage's normal hair color for a few seasons now.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I thought Cersei already had all the children she can have, per that Witches prophecy right?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> And the Night King to kill her and assume the throne...the end.


Maybe the Night King will kill Cercei and then marry her after he brings her back.

No matter how they wrap things up, it's going to feel like a rush job given that they only have five more episodes left.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

OhFiddle said:


> then say that the dragons aren't getting much to eat and aren't happy.


Was it that they weren't getting much to eat, or that they weren't eating much? I took it that the dragons weren't eating (for some reason - emotions etc).


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> I suspect he'd be willing to be on the same set if he were allowed to shoot her with a crossbow ...


Why do you think they need to be on the set at the same time for him to kill her. The dragons aren't really there. They are busy doing a telethon.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I did enjoy the episode but yeah, I felt like it was a slow hour of basically just putting people where they needed to be. I'm expecting this to amp up on the next episode!


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> So when Euron Greyjoy said "I'll put a Prince in your belly" she smiled knowingly. What's she plotting there?
> 
> 1. She might get pregnant and can tell Jaime it's his?
> 2. She might get pregnant, kill Euron and say it's his?
> ...


She's already told Jaime she's pregnant and it's his.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

SullyND said:


> Was it that they weren't getting much to eat, or that they weren't eating much? I took it that the dragons weren't eating (for some reason - emotions etc).


Yes, they specifically addressed this (they don't do well in the cold).


Jstkiddn said:


> She's already told Jaime she's pregnant and it's his.


If Cersei told me the sky was blue, I would look up before I believed her...

As I've said before, if she is pregnant than it's the longest gestation in human history, since Jaime has spent several months traveling with the army to Highgarden, several months traveling back, then several months traveling to Winterfell, all without Cersei even beginning to show. But that's not necessarily evidence of Cersei's mendacity, since the writers have been pretty sloppy on travel times since they got past Martin's source material.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

This episode felt very rushed to me. After watching the entire series immediately before the premiere, this one seemed to lack the time needed for the characters to process everything.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

mwhip said:


> I see some kind of split happening. I don't think Dany is going to believe Jon as much as she wants to and as we know Jon is Targaryen he basically now has his own dragon. Night King, Dany and Jon all have a dragon of their own.


The whole Three Dragons / Three Riders thing is back... and really adding to that possibility (from whatever conspiracy theorists first started it) that Rhaegar Targaryen is the Night King. Interesting!!

My theory on Cersei's death - subject to change on a whim - agrees with Philosofy's prediction yesterday afternoon in the closed discussion/no spoilers thread. But, that seems more likely if she really is carrying Jaime's baby, and I'm not sure she's been honest about that. That way, Jaime can cause her death... without directly killing her.

Reunited... and it feels so good! This episode went far too quickly, as I'm sure they all will. A great start!


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Indeed.
> 
> And I wonder if some of his sorrow is in realizing he's now the heir..?


Is he? I though he had to forswear his titles and place in sucession when he went to the Night's Watch.

Now I guess Daenerys could just appoint him to run House Tarly anyway - because who's around to gainsay her; but technically I don't think he's heir anymore.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

SullyND said:


> Was it that they weren't getting much to eat, or that they weren't eating much? I took it that the dragons weren't eating (for some reason - emotions etc).


They said something like "only 18 goats and 12 sheep", so not much. I took it as mood, not supply.

I like reunions, but there's a lot of stuff left to settle in only 5 episodes now!

How come they're not all over Bran?! _Hey, we got a guy here who can see *everything*, and the past! That might be useful!
_
I think the prophesy that Cersei will have (only) 3 children will hold.
Also, I'm looking for the sun to rise in the West somehow. Perhaps they're in a wacky N-ary star system which would also account for the varying lengths of seasons (and be represented by the rotating thing from the Citadel in the opening credits). But wouldn't someone have mentioned multiple suns by now?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jonathan_S said:


> Is he? I though he had to forswear his titles and place in succession when he went to the Night's Watch.


Well, we've seen how much his vows mean to him...the only member of the Night's Watch to become a family man! 

I was half-joking, but he does seem to be the only one left...and just the thought that he might have to become Lord Tarly would probably make him weep.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

OhFiddle said:


> So they mention how they're going to have trouble feeding all the soldiers and the dragons, then say that the dragons aren't getting much to eat and aren't happy. So I think Dany and Jon are taking them somewhere to get some chow chow. No, they just go on a long joy ride someplace private to get some nooky! Real nice dragon mom.
> 
> I guess the army of wights don't have to worry about getting food, or sleep, or freezing to death.


They said that the dragons are choosing not to eat. I took it to me they're not happy in the north, perhaps anxious about their new blue-eyed sibling, sensing death, etc. etc.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Poor Ed Sheeran. How will he sleep with no eyelids?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> This episode felt very rushed to me. After watching the entire series immediately before the premiere, this one seemed to lack the time needed for the characters to process everything.


yeah...

I was mildly bothered by some of that. I mean you (Arya) haven't seen your brother in years and he rides 2 feet in front of you and you don't wave, wink, say "hi". Uh...

Seems there would have been more of a collective meeting inside the gates where "Yeah, let's catch up later, we need to talk about XYZ" with just about all major characters. But whatever, I'm ok with it.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yes, they specifically addressed this (they don't do well in the cold)..


IIRC she said they don't like it in the North not that they explicitly don't like the cold. There are other reasons they might not like the North (closer proximity to the White walkers). A slight possible distinction.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

uncdrew said:


> yeah...
> 
> I was mildly bothered by some of that. I mean you (Arya) haven't seen your brother in years and he rides 2 feet in front of you and you don't wave, wink, say "hi". Uh...


I was bummed she didn't but it was completely plausible. So much had changed and it was completely in public and he was riding with the queen so I totally could see her wanting the more private reunion she got later.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Can Bran see the future, or just the past?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

How about the Umbridge boy. He did so well addressing the royalty and rushing off to tell his people to come to Winterfell and then he ends up a dismembered version of Durga (Indian God with multiple arms).

Yikes.

When he screamed I flinched a bit.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> How about the Umbridge boy. He did so well addressing the royalty and rushing off to tell his people to come to Winterfell and then he ends up a dismembered version of Durga (Indian God with multiple arms).
> 
> Yikes.
> 
> When he screamed I flinched a bit.


By "flinched", he means "peed".


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> yeah...
> 
> I was mildly bothered by some of that. I mean you (Arya) haven't seen your brother in years and he rides 2 feet in front of you and you don't wave, wink, say "hi". Uh...


I saw it as her watching for recognition from him, but him not seeing her.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Robin said:


> I saw it as her watching for recognition from him, but him not seeing her.


Yeah, I can buy that. And that was my take I think -- she was certainly paying attention like my dog watching me eat nachos. Had he seen her I think he'd have stopped and hopped off and hugged her. Butt who nose?

It just didn't strike me as that formal a procession. I'm fine with how it played out, especially to set up the scenes we saw rather than a more likely cluster of everyone talking over one another as they all come together.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> Is he? I though he had to forswear his titles and place in succession when he went to the Night's Watch.


That's an interesting point, because Jon swore the same oath. Wouldn't that make all the "he's the true heir" argument moot?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, I noticed that nobody in the procession noticed anybody who was watching, which struck me as perfectly normal. Who's going to pay close enough attention to a crowd to pick somebody out if they're not already specifically looking for somebody?


Shakhari said:


> That's an interesting point, because Jon swore the same oath. Wouldn't that make all the "he's the true heir" argument moot?


Although the oath is only until death, and Jon did in fact die...a point they keep bringing up, which tells me it is significant.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

brianp6621 said:


> I was bummed she didn't but it was completely plausible. So much had changed and it was completely in public and he was riding with the queen so I totally could see her wanting the more private reunion she got later.


I agree, I think Arya wanted her reunion with Jon to be private. I liked how it played out. Especially Arya defending Sansa.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Shakhari said:


> That's an interesting point, because Jon swore the same oath. Wouldn't that make all the "he's the true heir" argument moot?


Jon's oath to the Night Watch was made null and void when he died.


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

uncdrew said:


> They said that the dragons are choosing not to eat. I took it to me they're not happy in the north, perhaps anxious about their new blue-eyed sibling, sensing death, etc. etc.


I thought they went directly from talking about how they only had eaten x number of goats and sheep, to showing the dragons picking through a pile of meatless stripped bones. I guess that coupled with the earlier comments about them likely not having enough to feed all the soldiers and two dragons, made me think that they didn't have enough to eat. It also made me try to remember what made them stop eating random people like they had in the earlier seasons, but I couldn't remember.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> That's an interesting point, because Jon swore the same oath. Wouldn't that make all the "he's the true heir" argument moot?


Ah, but Jon died.

Smeek squared.


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

hummingbird_206 said:


> Jon's oath to the Night Watch was made null and void when he died.


Small but possibly important distinction: His oath isn't "null and void" because he died. It is fulfilled.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

SoBelle0 said:


> The whole Three Dragons / Three Riders thing is back... and really adding to that possibility (from whatever conspiracy theorists first started it) that Rhaegar Targaryen is the Night King. Interesting!!


How is this possible if the Night King was "made" by the Children of the Forest at least a thousand years ago? Didn't they make him to win the war with the humans?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mitkraft said:


> Small but possibly important distinction: His oath isn't "null and void" because he died. It is fulfilled.


And he already had become the King of the North without complaint. Even Cersei recognized him and asked him not to pick sides back when they were discussing a truce. So there is no debate about him not being eligible for "office".


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> How about the Umbridge boy. He did so well addressing the royalty and rushing off to tell his people to come to Winterfell and then he ends up a dismembered version of Durga (Indian God with multiple arms).
> 
> Yikes.
> 
> When he screamed I flinched a bit.


I was wondering who that was...it looked a little like the kid who delivered the fatal blow to Jon, but I knew Job executed him a long time ago...that makes sense now that it was the Umber boy...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I was wondering who that was...it looked a little like the kid who delivered the fatal blow to Jon, but I knew Job executed him a long time ago...that makes sense now that it was the Umber boy...


Yeah, they said it was the Umber boy during that scene, but it was hard to understand. That whole scene was very dark and it wasn't clear until the end where they were, who they were, and what they were doing there. But the way they people were moving it was clear they weren't Wights or White Walkers, so I'm not sure what the point was of keeping that whole scene in the dark like that.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

smak said:


> I really like how they saved that meeting til the end. Just enough time to forget about about where Jaime was going last season, and then he takes off his hoodie...


Same! I actually thought at first it was going to be Melisandre and then was like "of course it's Jaime!"



wprager said:


> My kids watched it live. My wife and I watched it just after 10. One of my daughters (after finishing watching it) said they were all disappointed that nothing happened, CGI budget blown on Jon and Dany flying, etc. Thing is, first episode of every season has been used to set up what is coming, so it's afraid been a bit slow. But we didn't feel at all disappointed (other than when it was over).


I got a friend hooked on this show over the winter and they were even watching episodes all weekend to prepare for the show. The first thing they say to me is "I was disappointed with episode... expected more with the opener." I told them I had to ignore them now. 



heySkippy said:


> So, who is Bron going to shoot with that crossbow? I have serious doubts it'll be Jaimie or Tyrion.


He'll put dragon glass on the arrows and go help the North hoping to come out alive and with all his gold.



Anubys said:


> Another A+ conversation between Tyrion and Varys about making jokes regarding height and balls


I have to say, I usually love Tyrion's snark. He's my favorite character. But this, I don't like it. It's cruel just as Varys said. The fact that he knows it bothers his friend and persists seems a bit out of character for me. 



PJO1966 said:


> This episode felt very rushed to me. After watching the entire series immediately before the premiere, this one seemed to lack the time needed for the characters to process everything.


It was very rushed. The Theon scenes especially. Don't get me wrong I squealed when he showed up for Yara but I wanted that entire thing fleshed out a bit more.

Overall, I was thrilled with this episode. Things I particularly was clapping about (literally) have been mentioned but I'm gonna list anyhow. 
1. First and foremost.. that dawning on Jaime's face at the end. I think I honestly yelled out loud. 
2. I was so happy with the call back to Gendry and Arya and him calling her M'Lady 
3. Tyrion and Sansa reunion. He definitely IS the most clever person on this show but .... she got him there. He was a fool to believe Cercei! 
4. Theon saving Yara. I knew it was going to happen but when the arrow flew and she looked up and he came into the doorway I was so so thrilled!! 
5. Jon and Arya and the talk of Needle and her saying "once or twice" when he asked if she's used it. HA! Jon Snow you know nothing.

And next week is another hour show right? They don't get into the longer episodes until the one after. I feel like they need more time! I still don't get why they didn't just give us a full season of 10 episodes, they surely have all the material to fill it! Either way so happy to have this show back, I'm still giddy!


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Same! I actually thought at first it was going to be Melisandre and then was like "of course it's Jaime!"
> 
> I got a friend hooked on this show over the winter and they were even watching episodes all weekend to prepare for the show. The first thing they say to me is "I was disappointed with episode... expected more with the opener." I told them I had to ignore them now.
> 
> ...


I'll add one to your list - Yara decking Theon.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I still don't get why they didn't just give us a full season of 10 episodes, they surely have all the material to fill it! Either way so happy to have this show back, I'm still giddy!


I believe it's a budgetary thing...they're PAYING for 10 episodes, but cramming all that money into six.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Same! I actually thought at first it was going to be Melisandre and then was like "of course it's Jaime!"


I thought it was Melisandre when the hooded figure rode in, but as soon as we saw the hooded figure get off the horse, it was clear that it was Jaime's body, not a woman.



photoshopgrl said:


> And next week is another hour show right? They don't get into the longer episodes until the one after. I feel like they need more time! I still don't get why they didn't just give us a full season of 10 episodes, they surely have all the material to fill it! Either way so happy to have this show back, I'm still giddy!


Here are the running times for the remaining episodes:


Spoiler



Episode 2: 58 minutes
Episode 3: 82 minutes
Episode 4: 78 minutes
Episode 5: 80 minutes
Episode 6 80 minutes


It's not just about having the footage to fill out the time. It's about the contracts that require certain amounts to be paid for each episode. So keeping it to six allowed them to make better use of their budget.


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

nirisahn said:


> I'll add one to your list - Yara decking Theon.


I actually expected that from the get-go. As soon as he came in the room I knew he was going to untie her and she was going to hit him somehow.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

nirisahn said:


> I'll add one to your list - Yara decking Theon.


because he didn't kill her when she ordered him to?

um, guess what, Yara? Theon was right! better to let you go and save you later.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I never considered it would be anyone other than Jaime!

I think Mellissandre told Varys that she would/could never return to Winterfell. Indeed, Jon told her he would execute her if she ever returned.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> because he didn't kill her when she ordered him to?
> 
> um, guess what, Yara? Theon was right! better to let you go and save you later.


Because he was a coward and jumped overboard rather than fight for her.

But I liked that immediately after she decked him, she held out her hand and helped him up.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Because he was a coward and jumped overboard rather than fight for her.
> 
> But I liked that immediately after she decked him, she held out her hand and helped him up.


But he wasn't a coward, he didn't fight a losing battle and lived to fight another day. He was smart.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> But he wasn't a coward, he didn't fight a losing battle and lived to fight another day. He was smart.


But that's not how the Iron born fight. They aren't strategic like that.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I never considered it would be anyone other than Jaime!


Same. Of course I had just watched the previous ep. where they showed him dressing for the journey and putting his glove over his hand.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Oh also they glazed far too fast over Dany finding out her dragon was now the undead with the Night King. We got barely a pained look on her face before moving on and not a word from her about it.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Can someone please give me a brief history of Arya and Gendry? I'm blanking. I'll go google it but like y'all's updates better.

And what is Arya having him make for her? What does she need a tool/weapon for (that needle or Valerian steel dagger can't accomplish)?

... and Jon sees her Valerian steel dagger and doesn't question where she got it? Hmm...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yeah, they said it was the Umber boy during that scene, but it was hard to understand. That whole scene was very dark and it wasn't clear until the end where they were, who they were, and what they were doing there. But the way they people were moving it was clear they weren't Wights or White Walkers, so I'm not sure what the point was of keeping that whole scene in the dark like that.


It would actually be helpful if they put a location tag on scenes.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh also they glazed far too fast over Dany finding out her dragon was now the undead with the Night King. We got barely a pained look on her face before moving on and not a word from her about it.


Huh? Dany was there when Viserion got turned into an ice dragon in S07E06. Why would she need to find out about it and react to it in this episode?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

DevdogAZ said:


> Huh? Dany was there when Viserion got turned into an ice dragon in S07E06. Why would she need to find out about it and react to it in this episode?


No she wasn't. They had flown off well before the NK pulled him from that water. She had no idea until Bran told her.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Huh? Dany was there when Viserion got turned into an ice dragon in S07E06. Why would she need to find out about it and react to it in this episode?


Unless I'm remembering wrong, she wasn't there. They had already left when the undead pulled the dragon out of the water and turned him.

Edit: Photoshopgrl types faster than I do.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> No she wasn't. They had flown off well before the NK pulled him from that water. She had no idea until Bran told her.





nirisahn said:


> Unless I'm remembering wrong, she wasn't there. They had already left when the undead pulled the dragon out of the water and turned him.
> 
> Edit: Photoshopgrl types faster than I do.


You guys are right. I forgot that she saw Viserion die but then left before he was reanimated.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> And the Night King to kill her and assume the throne...the end.


He'll make her his wight queen imo. Or maybe the first full blown woman white walker.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> And what is Arya having him make for her? What does she need a tool/weapon for (that needle or Valerian steel dagger can't accomplish)?


One end was labeled 'dragonglass', the other was not. So I'm assuming a two ended pole with a dragonglass blade on one end, and a normal blade (or perhaps her valerian steel dagger) on the other - separable in the middle.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

One thing I really hope happens before this is all over is for Brienne and Tormund to hook up.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Anubys said:


> How is this possible if the Night King was "made" by the Children of the Forest at least a thousand years ago? Didn't they make him to win the war with the humans?


I did not realize it had been that long ago... 
It doesn't work as well if the Night King is to have been a Stark.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

danielhart said:


> One thing I really hope happens before this is all over is for Brienne and Tormund to hook up.


I mean Tormund is hilarious with his obsession with her but there's something real between her and Jaime and I hope that doesn't get lost in the shuffle of them rushing all the angles in these final episodes. They've done so well with their scenes in the past.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Can someone please give me a brief history of Arya and Gendry? I'm blanking. I'll go google it but like y'all's updates better.


They fled Kings Landing together, ended up prisoners at Harrenahall together, escaped together, ended up with the Brotherhood together - and parted ways when Gendry decided to stay to make weapons for the brotherhood.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> You guys are right. I forgot that she saw Viserion die but then left before he was reanimated.


I still want to know where they got that huge ass chain they pulled him out of the water from ...

Also who swam down and attached it to Viserion?


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

kdmorse said:


> They fled Kings Landing together, ended up prisoners at Harrenahall together, escaped together, ended up with the Brotherhood together - and parted ways when Gendry decided to stay to make weapons for the brotherhood.


Actually Arya was still there when the Brotherhood sold him off to the Red Woman. She confronted Melisandre and called her a witch with bad intentions for Gendry. Melisandre then said something prophetic related to Arya eventually becoming one of the Faceless (Wo)Men.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> So, who is Bron going to shoot with that crossbow? I have serious doubts it'll be Jaimie or Tyrion.


Were they paying Bronn in advance (a mistake!) or was that gold that he was owed for previous services and he was promised more?


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## JonC24 (Jul 13, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Can Bran see the future, or just the past?


Bran is the new three-eyed raven. He can see the past, present, and future.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

danielhart said:


> One thing I really hope happens before this is all over is for Brienne and Tormund to hook up.


Yes please. I love his attraction to her and hope she caves.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> 3. Tyrion and Sansa reunion. He definitely IS the most clever person on this show but .... she got him there. He was a fool to believe Cercei!


They're still married, yes?



DevdogAZ said:


> It's not just about having the footage to fill out the time. It's about the contracts that require certain amounts to be paid for each episode. So keeping it to six allowed them to make better use of their budget.


I was wondering about this. Besides the longer episodes angle... What about being paid per the episode -- then finding out that one episode requires 55 night shoots in a cold location?



danielhart said:


> One thing I really hope happens before this is all over is for Brienne and Tormund to hook up.


I love the look on his face when he sees or talks about her!

_I want to make babies with her. Think of 'em, great, big monsters. They'll conquer the world!_


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> It would actually be helpful if they put a location tag on scenes.


Watching the opening credits helps, since it shows all the locations for the upcoming episode. Speaking of the opening, the new one for this episode was really great!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> They're still married, yes?


I don't think so. Because she's been married to Ramsey in the meantime. So I'm sure when Tyrion fled Westeros, there was some kind of legal process that made Sansa free.



tlc said:


> I was wondering about this. Besides the longer episodes angle... What about being paid per the episode -- then finding out that one episode requires 55 night shoots in a cold location?


Yeah, I guess for the actors paid on a per-episode basis, that particular one didn't pan out too well. But they made up for it over the course of the series. For everyone else (extras, crew, etc., they would all be paid scale or hourly, so they were fairly compensated for all the time it took to make that episode.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I mean Tormund is hilarious with his obsession with her but there's something real between her and Jaime and I hope that doesn't get lost in the shuffle of them rushing all the angles in these final episodes. They've done so well with their scenes in the past.


YES!! I adore Tormund, and he's a real hoot! I brought up last night that I really want to see what comes for Brienne and Jaime, though. My girlfriends were not on the same train... and only want to see Brienne and Tormund. Looking forward to whatever shakes out.



PJO1966 said:


> Watching the opening credits helps, since it shows all the locations for the upcoming episode. Speaking of the opening, the new one for this episode was really great!


I forgot to mention that. We watched that bit twice, the way it now goes North to South, and the differing vantage points for each - superbly done!


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> How about the *Umbridge* boy. He did so well addressing the royalty and rushing off to tell his people to come to Winterfell and then he ends up a dismembered version of Durga (Indian God with multiple arms).
> 
> Yikes.
> 
> When he screamed I flinched a bit.


*Umber (or now "burnt Umber" /ducks  )


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

danielhart said:


> I still want to know where they got that huge ass chain they pulled him out of the water from ...
> 
> Also who swam down and attached it to Viserion?


I didn't get a chance to re-watch the end of S7, but do the dead need to swim? Or can they just walk along the bottom*? This might also factor into Theon's assumption that the dead can't reach the Iron Isles...

[*Any buoyancy issues would presumably be rendered moot by the weight of the chain, in this case]


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

They can't swim. They can't cross water. Remember they stood at the shore of the frozen pond until they realized it was frozen and could support them. Euron and Yara have both talked about going to the Iron Islands where they'll be safe.

I also wondered how they chained up the dragon to get him out of the water.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh also they glazed far too fast over Dany finding out her dragon was now the undead with the Night King. We got barely a pained look on her face before moving on and not a word from her about it.


Was that her finding out? I'd assumed she already knew (told/found out off-screen between the seasons) and that brief pained look was just at the reminder of it.

There's clearly been some time since the wall was breached (survivors or the breach were already at Winterfell) and the undead dragon was hardly a subtle or overlook-able part of the failure of the wall. I assumed everyone important in the North already knew about that.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

kdmorse said:


> One end was labeled 'dragonglass', the other was not. So I'm assuming a two ended pole with a dragonglass blade on one end, and a normal blade (or perhaps her valerian steel dagger) on the other - separable in the middle.


That sounds wicked. Enchanted Friar's pole with +3 against White Walkers.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> Watching the opening credits helps, since it shows all the locations for the upcoming episode. Speaking of the opening, the new one for this episode was really great!


I really liked the music!


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

ADG said:


> Okay, I'll have to rewatch - but didn't Cersei hand Bron the crossbow in person?


The actors who play Cersei and Bronn had a real-life bad breakup and do not appear in the same scene together. Ever. Even in the season finale last season, Bronn left the summit with Pod before Cersei got there.



uncdrew said:


> So when Euron Greyjoy said "I'll put a Prince in your belly" she smiled knowingly. What's she plotting there?
> 
> 1. She might get pregnant and can tell Jaime it's his?
> 2. She might get pregnant, kill Euron and say it's his?
> ...


5. She is pregnant. If she has sex with Euron, it doesn't appear like she's having another child of incest with Jaime.



vertigo235 said:


> I thought Cersei already had all the children she can have, per that Witches prophecy right?


Maybe she'll die before it's born.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

SoBelle0 said:


> YES!! I adore Tormund, and he's a real hoot! I brought up last night that I really want to see what comes for Brienne and Jaime, though. My girlfriends were not on the same train... and only want to see Brienne and Tormund. Looking forward to whatever shakes out.


They all die.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> *Umber (or now "burnt Umber" /ducks  )


I might have recently just finished book 5 in the Potter series.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Not a book reader (and I have no memory) but do the characters know that only Targaryen's can ride dragons? If so doesn't that mean Dany knows John is a relative?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jonathan_S said:


> Was that her finding out? I'd assumed she already knew (told/found out off-screen between the seasons) and that brief pained look was just at the reminder of it.
> 
> There's clearly been some time since the wall was breached (survivors or the breach were already at Winterfell) and the undead dragon was hardly a subtle or overlook-able part of the failure of the wall. I assumed everyone important in the North already knew about that.


Then again, the survivors from the Wall have not yet reached Winterfell, so while it is known that the Wall has fallen and the dead are on the march, the details may not yet be known (if, e.g., the dragon hasn't been used since bringing down the Wall).


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

I kind of chuckled to myself when Cersei asked the Golden Company captain about the elephants and he told her that they aren't suited for sea travel. In my mind I could hear him telling her, "This show is already massively expensive, and the execs at HBO won't pony up for elephants..."

Seriously I'm sure it was discussed and they decided that elephants would be too cost prohibitive. Real ones would be an expensive logistical nightmare and CGI ones would also be very expensive as well as very difficult to do well. Anything that's living and real is much harder to do than inanimate objects or fictional creatures like dragons.

Speaking of CGI the waterfalls in the scene with Dany and Jon were added in post to an otherwise actual location in Norway. Very well done imo.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then again, the survivors from the Wall have not yet reached Winterfell, so while it is known that the Wall has fallen and the dead are on the march, the details may not yet be known (if, e.g., the dragon hasn't been used since bringing down the Wall).


Do we know that for sure? Did Tormund and Beric just happen upon the Umber castle while making their way from Eastwatch to Winterfell? Or were they part of the team that was dispatched from Winterfell to find out why the Umbers hadn't sent their banners to Winterfell?


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

"So keep your queen warm. Don't be afraid. _It's not the first time they've watched me do this._"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Do we know that for sure? Did Tormund and Beric just happen upon the Umber castle while making their way from Eastwatch to Winterfell? Or were they part of the team that was dispatched from Winterfell to find out why the Umbers hadn't sent their banners to Winterfell?


No, they met up there, and it clearly was not planned ("He has blue eyes!").


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> The actors who play Cersei and Bronn had a real-life bad breakup and do not appear in the same scene together. Ever. Even in the season finale last season, Bronn left the summit with Pod before Cersei got there.


Bummer, but they could still get around that. Just have Bronn shoot the arrow, change scenes, and show the arrow hitting Cersei.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

allan said:


> Bummer, but they could still get around that. Just have Bronn shoot the arrow, change scenes, and show the arrow hitting Cersei.


I was referring to the handing of the crossbow to Bronn. Definitely not Cersei.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

JETarpon said:


> They can't swim. They can't cross water. Remember they stood at the shore of the frozen pond until they realized it was frozen and could support them. Euron and Yara have both talked about going to the Iron Islands where they'll be safe.
> 
> I also wondered how they chained up the dragon to get him out of the water.


Hey Jet! Howzit gb?

I was thinking about that and it occurred to me that living humans can't effectively swim anywhere either. Ships are a necessity. And I can't see why the Night King couldn't commandeer a bunch of them to ferry his army wherever he wants to take them. And each new location is chock full of potential recruits....lol

Not to mention that he also has his wight dragon now....

The point being that nowhere is really safe from the Army of the Dead....


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

danielhart said:


> Hey Jet! Howzit gb?
> 
> I was thinking about that and it occurred to me that living humans can't effectively swim anywhere either. Ships are a necessity. And I can't see why the Night King couldn't commandeer a bunch of them to ferry his army wherever he wants to take them. And each new location is chock full of potential recruits....lol
> 
> ...


Oh, definitely. Just because they think they'll be safe doesn't mean they will be. And they don't know about the dragon.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> Watching the opening credits helps, since it shows all the locations for the upcoming episode. Speaking of the opening, the new one for this episode was really great!


 But that requires taking notes and it isn't always obvious when it happens. Besides, it would take away from my gleefully belting out the theme song!


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Do we know that for sure? Did Tormund and Beric just happen upon the Umber castle while making their way from Eastwatch to Winterfell? Or were they part of the team that was dispatched from Winterfell to find out why the Umbers hadn't sent their banners to Winterfell?


I'd though they were part of the team going north and it was the folks they ran into who were presumably still making their way south from the wall.

But even if I got mixed up and they hadn't reached Winterfell yet surely a runner had reached the nearest Night Watch castle with news of the breach -- they would have sent ravens south with key details of that breach. (And "Hey, a blue eyed freaking *dragon *spitting ethereal _*blue fire*_ that just f*ing _*shattered*_ the Wall" seems like a key piece of information to include )


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

House Umber's castle is Last Hearth and is on the way from Eastwatch to Winterfell

https://i.redd.it/ap8fmgf1fzcz.jpg


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

kdmorse said:


> One end was labeled 'dragonglass', the other was not. So I'm assuming a two ended pole with a dragonglass blade on one end, and a normal blade (or perhaps her valerian steel dagger) on the other - separable in the middle.


Knowing Arya, she might even want something that can be fitted with a dragon/fire-killing blade on the other end, just so she can kill _anything _she chooses _ _(Aside from WW ice lances, do we know of anything that's good for killing dragons?)



JohnB1000 said:


> Not a book reader (and I have no memory) but do the characters know that only Targaryen's can ride dragons? If so doesn't that mean Dany knows John is a relative?


It is known, but in an "It is known, Khaleesi!" sort of way  There's some more about this in the books, but it's still a matter of ancient legend and a choice few actual encounters. In any case, Dany probably assumes that the dragons tolerate him because she's into him.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Oh yeah,

_"Which girl?"_

and

_"It had its moments."_


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

'Game of Thrones': So Who's Able to Ride a Dragon?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

danielhart said:


> Hey Jet! Howzit gb?
> 
> I was thinking about that and it occurred to me that living humans can't effectively swim anywhere either. Ships are a necessity. And I can't see why the Night King couldn't commandeer a bunch of them to ferry his army wherever he wants to take them. And each new location is chock full of potential recruits....lol
> 
> ...


The Summer Islands or Ulthos seem like a nice place to be...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

"What is dead may never die"
"But kill the bastards anyway" 

In the credits, they showed the broken wall, then went down to House Umber (Last Hearth), then Winterfell. So it makes sense that all the Night Watch survivors would head to Last Hearth on their way to Winterfell.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> Knowing Arya, she might even want something that can be fitted with a dragon/fire-killing blade on the other end, just so she can kill _anything _she chooses _ _(Aside from WW ice lances, do we know of anything that's good for killing dragons?)


Bronn almost got one with the ballista.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Perhaps the Night King takes Cersei's fourth pregnancy thus keeping the prophecy intact.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't know how I missed this the first time around...I think someone alluded to it here as well, yet I still missed it:

Sam comes out in the courtyard and sees Bran. He asks Bran what he's doing out and Bran responds "waiting for an old friend".


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I don't know how I missed this the first time around...I think someone alluded to it here as well, yet I still missed it:
> 
> Sam comes out in the courtyard and sees Bran. He asks Bran what he's doing out and Bran responds "waiting for an old friend".


Yup.

I thought to myself "huh, who could it be?" and my brain put it together as he saw Jaime and I thought "well done".

Funny how some people miss some things and others miss other things.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I don't know how I missed this the first time around...I think someone alluded to it here as well, yet I still missed it:
> 
> Sam comes out in the courtyard and sees Bran. He asks Bran what he's doing out and Bran responds "waiting for an old friend".


At the time, I took that to mean that he knew Sam would be walking out that door, and Bran was waiting for Sam. But in the context of the final scene, it makes more sense.

With regard to the Umber boy being killed and strung up on the wall like he was, what was the significance of the spiral shape around him? Were those legs of some sea creature? Is the spiral related to the Umber sigil or was that some kind of message from the Night King?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I don't know how I missed this the first time around...I think someone alluded to it here as well, yet I still missed it:
> 
> Sam comes out in the courtyard and sees Bran. He asks Bran what he's doing out and Bran responds "waiting for an old friend".


reminded me of Silence of the Lambs "lunch with an old friend"


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Jonathan_S said:


> Was that her finding out? I'd assumed she already knew (told/found out off-screen between the seasons) and that brief pained look was just at the reminder of it.
> 
> There's clearly been some time since the wall was breached (survivors or the breach were already at Winterfell) and the undead dragon was hardly a subtle or overlook-able part of the failure of the wall. I assumed everyone important in the North already knew about that.


Something that important found out off screen? Not this show. That's not just huge news to Dany because it's her dragon but that's really important news because now it's not just foot soldiers they have to figure out how to kill. A normal dragon is hard enough but an undead one?? How are they not all freaking out about that??


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> With regard to the Umber boy being killed and strung up on the wall like he was, what was the significance of the spiral shape around him? Were those legs of some sea creature? Is the spiral related to the Umber sigil or was that some kind of message from the Night King?


We've seen it before.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> We've seen it before.


Also in the cave paintings of the first men (I think both in caves north of the wall, and under DragonStone where the dragonglass was found).


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> At the time, I took that to mean that he knew Sam would be walking out that door, and Bran was waiting for Sam. But in the context of the final scene, it makes more sense.
> 
> With regard to the Umber boy being killed and strung up on the wall like he was, what was the significance of the spiral shape around him? Were those legs of some sea creature? Is the spiral related to the Umber sigil or was that some kind of message from the Night King?


We've seen the White Walkers use that symbol before.










Edit: JETarpon beat me to it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

What did Mormont say to that? "Ever the artists" or something along those lines...

We also saw a different shape in S01E01...which was south of the wall; so you wonder why some of them could make it south of the wall but the rest could not...


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Anubys said:


> What did Mormont say to that? "Ever the artists" or something along those lines...
> 
> We also saw a different shape in S01E01...which was south of the wall; so you wonder why some of them could make it south of the wall but the rest could not...


That was north of the wall.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

The symbol originated with The Children of the Forest.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

When Uncle Benjen first found Bran he told him he couldn't go south of the wall because of powerful magic/spells that were worked into the wall. How did they get past that? Just by having the zombie dragon shoot blue fire at it?


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> When Uncle Benjen first found Bran he told him he couldn't go south of the wall because of powerful magic/spells that were worked into the wall. How did they get past that? Just by having the zombie dragon shoot blue fire at it?


It's Bran's fault.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

How did there ever get to be that many dead people that far north, anyway?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cherry ghost said:


> That was north of the wall.


Was it? The Wildling was running around, found the WW dead and then escaped south where he was caught by Ned and executed? I thought all that happened south of the wall. But I guess I can see it your way. If so, I wish they showed the wildling making it across the wall so it's clearer what happened where...



PJO1966 said:


> When Uncle Benjen first found Bran he told him he couldn't go south of the wall because of powerful magic/spells that were worked into the wall. How did they get past that? Just by having the zombie dragon shoot blue fire at it?


Well, if what is keeping them is the magic of the wall and the magic of the dragon took down the wall...it makes sense that now they could cross where they could not before. Heck, maybe they could cross through one of the gates and the original plan to do so wasn't needed since the Night King got himself a dragon!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> How did there ever get to be that many dead people that far north, anyway?


If he'd been amassing his army for a thousand years, that would not be hard. Everyone that ever died for a thousand years can be a lot of people


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

So the hype got to me last night and I decided to watch the final season LOL. I have some familiarity with the premise of the show and have seen a couple of episodes here and there (Red Wedding, anyone?), plus listening to people talk about it for seven years, etc. So I basically watched a 15 minute recap video on youtube as well as the the last half of the season seven finale, then dove into this episode. Thanks to Google filling in some gaps, I was able to follow the majority of what was going on. 

Here's my basic understanding - is this correct?

Daenerys believes she is the rightful queen and has spent the last seven seasons traveling toward home - amassing an army along the way - to claim her throne. She meets up with Jon Snow, who thought was the child of Ned Stark and king of Winterfell but just found out he's actually the son of Daenerys' uncle's brother's cousin or something, so now he knows HE's actually the true air of the whole country (world?), a fact that only three people know. They team up with the rest of the Starks and a bunch of other people to prep for the zombie apocalypse. Meanwhile, the current queen (who only has the title cause she's a bad b****) is sitting around waiting for all these other clans to die in said zombie apocalypse so she can rule unchallenged (not sure what she'd be ruling if everyone in the land was murdered by the undead but whatevs). Her brother/husband has decided he's not down for that, and arrived in Winterfell to switch sides... Upon riding in (unchecked - is there no security in this place?), he immediately runs into the kid he tossed off a roof a million years ago when he got busted doing unsavory things with his sister... Drama no doubt ensues. 

So I just have a couple of questions

*Was he unaware that the kid survived this whole time? He seemed genuinely shocked to see him but I couldn't tell if it was just shock, or "oh my god I thought I killed you"... One thing I read said that Bran didn't remember what happened to him, but surely Jamie would have known he survived at the time? I didn't get why he was surprised. And my guess is that Bran didn't remember, but knows now that he has some kind of "third eye" situation going on. 

*I had seen pieces of episodes in previous seasons (usually when I came across Emilia Clarke while channel surfing ) and I got the impression that Daenrys' was liberating people held by slave owners because she was a "for the people" kind of chick. But then she killed Jon Snow's friend's dad and brother because they wouldn't "bend the knee" and accept her rule? Obviously I misinterpreted something in the earlier episodes I'd seen. It just seemed odd that she'd be all uppity about these other governors treating their people like slaves, only to execute anyone who didn't submit to her. 

*Is Westeros basically like Europe, and all the towns like Winterfell are like individual countries within the continent? Or is Westeros a county and all the other towns are basically states within the country? 

Yay for no longer being left out of these discussions at work on Monday mornings!!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mrdazzo7 said:


> *Was he unaware that the kid survived this whole time? He seemed genuinely shocked to see him but I couldn't tell if it was just shock, or "oh my god I thought I killed you"... One thing I read said that Bran didn't remember what happened to him, but surely Jamie would have known he survived at the time? I didn't get why he was surprised. And my guess is that Bran didn't remember, but knows now that he has some kind of "third eye" situation going on.
> 
> *I had seen pieces of episodes in previous seasons (usually when I came across Emilia Clarke while channel surfing ) and I got the impression that Daenrys' was liberating people held by slave owners because she was a "for the people" kind of chick. But then she killed Jon Snow's friend's dad and brother because they wouldn't "bend the knee" and accept her rule? Obviously I misinterpreted something in the earlier episodes I'd seen. It just seemed odd that she'd be all uppity about these other governors treating their people like slaves, only to execute anyone who didn't submit to her.
> 
> ...


He knew the kid survived, was a cripple for life, and could not remember what happened. He does not know that he is now the 3-eyed raven and knows everything. He was just shocked to see him there waiting for him. Jaime is actually a decent person living inside an evil guy.

Killing the father and son Tarley was a mistake. Everyone knew it was a mistake and told her so but she got stubborn and did it.

One correction: ruling the 7 kingdoms doesn't mean you rule the world. There's a whole other continent (where Danny got all her armies, actually) on the other side. But this is the continent that counts


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Was it? The Wildling was running around, found the WW dead and then escaped south where he was caught by Ned and executed? I thought all that happened south of the wall. But I guess I can see it your way. If so, I wish they showed the wildling making it across the wall so it's clearer what happened where...


That wasn't a Wildling, it was a Night's Watch brother. They were on a scouting mission north of the wall (obviously, because it was snowing; winter hadn't come south of the Wall yet) when they ran into the White Walker and his work. It then turned on them, and that one guy was the sole survivor. He then fled south of the Wall, where he was captured and executed as a deserter.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I'm waiting for the show to explain how Jon Snow isn't still a bastard. Rheagar was married, and not to Lyanna.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

heySkippy said:


> I'm waiting for the show to explain how Jon Snow isn't still a bastard. Rheagar was married, and not to Lyanna.


They got secretly married. They showed it through one of Bran's visions.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> I'm waiting for the show to explain how Jon Snow isn't still a bastard. Rheagar was married, and not to Lyanna.


The letter/diary that Samwell found talked about granting a annulment to Rhaegar and his first wife. So, when Bran said Jon was actually a Sand, Sam corrected him. He is a Targaryen.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

> Jaime is actually a decent person living inside an evil guy.


Yeah, I couldn't really tell what he was about based on my viewings. Obviously the fact that he was doing his sister was "off", but in the scene I saw at the end of season seven between him and her he seemed genuinely concerned about their people joining everyone else, so everyone could survive, etc. Then I read that he threw Bran off a roof and thought "ok, maybe he did it in a moment of sheer panic and it's always haunted him, like a "tortured soul" kind of storyline. But then I saw the actual scene from the pilot and boy was I wrong - he pushed the kid off while smiling and saying "oh the things I do for love!" without an ounce of thought, pain, or hesitation lol. So yeah, maybe I need to do some more reading specific to his storyline because I'm not sure where his "redemption" would come after that first scene. There was nothing sorry about it.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> They got secretly married. They showed it through one of Bran's visions.


He also got his marriage to Elia Martell annulled.

BTW, is that Harry Lloyd playing Rheagar?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> I'm waiting for the show to explain how Jon Snow isn't still a bastard. Rheagar was married, and not to Lyanna.


LOL...I hope posts following yours clarify that you need not wait, just pay attention  



mrdazzo7 said:


> Yeah, I couldn't really tell what he was about based on my viewings. Obviously the fact that he was doing his sister was "off", but in the scene I saw at the end of season seven between him and her he seemed genuinely concerned about their people joining everyone else, so everyone could survive, etc. Then I read that he threw Bran off a roof and thought "ok, maybe he did it in a moment of sheer panic and it's always haunted him, like a "tortured soul" kind of storyline. But then I saw the actual scene from the pilot and boy was I wrong - he pushed the kid off while smiling and saying "oh the things I do for love!" without an ounce of thought, pain, or hesitation lol. So yeah, maybe I need to do some more reading specific to his storyline because I'm not sure where his "redemption" would come after that first scene. There was nothing sorry about it.


I think he is a fascinating character. He has his own code of ethics. They are warped, but he does live by them. He also evolved as the show went on (Theon also changed a lot, for example, but he's not nearly as interesting or complex). Jaime loved his sister and his family and anyone in the way merited no more attention than he would give to an annoying bug. But he was also a decent person deep down and when he started to encounter people worthy of his respect, he started to change. His deep love for his sister blinded him to how evil she was until the dam finally broke. Check out the episode called The Queen's Justice, the final scene with Jaime and Lady Tyrell will really help you see where he was headed and her frank dialogue with him just before she dies is really good. The music from the closing credits of that episode is also fantastic!


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

The one problem I have with Jon Snow being a Targaryen is that every other Targaryen we've seen is a towhead. Why is he so dark?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> The one problem I have with Jon Snow being a Targaryen is that every other Targaryen we've seen is a towhead. Why is he so dark?


Because he's half Targaryen


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

That's a valid point.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I'm waiting for the show to explain how Jon Snow isn't still a bastard. Rheagar was married, and not to Lyanna.


There was an annulment of Rheahars first marriage. It was the one Sam read about in the maester's diary.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> The one problem I have with Jon Snow being a Targaryen is that every other Targaryen we've seen is a towhead. Why is he so dark?


Didn't the Targaryens normally marry sister to brother? Jon's mother is a Stark, so we finally have an outcross in the pedigree.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> Didn't the Targaryens normally marry sister to brother? Jon's mother is a Stark, so we finally have an outcross in the pedigree.


I assume the extra shiny hair is a recessive gene, that doesn't survive well outside the family.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

So, here's a thought:
Winterfell is sitting on top of crypts (like I assume, many of the noble houses do).
Is that going to be a problem if/when the Night King comes to town?


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Is he? I though he had to forswear his titles and place in sucession when he went to the Night's Watch.


Well, I guess Jon can't claim the Iron Throne, then!


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

MacThor said:


> Well, I guess Jon can't claim the Iron Throne, then!


I dunno. He swore off all such things until his death. But then he died (oath fulfilled!). So it kinda depends on how you parse the words of an 8000 year old oath, and factor in resurrection by the God of Light.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

kdmorse said:


> I dunno. He swore off all such things until his death. But then he died (oath fulfilled!). So it kinda depends on how you parse the words of an 8000 year old oath, and factor in resurrection by the God of Light.


Yes, as has been pointed out multiple times already! And as I have said, the fact that they keep pointing out that he died in the show means that that fact is something that they want us to keep in mind and will eventually come into play...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yes, *as has been pointed out multiple times already*! And as I have said, the fact that they keep pointing out that he died in the show means that that fact is something that they want us to keep in mind and will eventually come into play...


Strange that we have to revisit this every couple of pages 

"and now his watch has ended"

The only edit I would make to your statement is that other people keep pointing out that he died...so it's not like the producers are reminding us of this fact in a "previously on" segment; but characters on the show are referencing it as common knowledge (I know that's what you meant, I'm just clarifying it).

So back to my prediction about this season, it is clearly setting up as the final battle for the throne...I predicted that the battle with the Night King will be over by episode 3 (or 4 at the latest) and the rest will be the positioning for the throne by the ones that are left alive. After watching episode 1; I'm very happy with my prediction.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> The only edit I would make to your statement is that other people keep pointing out that he died...so it's not like the producers are reminding us of this fact in a "previously on" segment; but characters on the show are referencing it as common knowledge (I know that's what you meant, I'm just clarifying it).


That's my point exactly...the writers are keeping it in the forefront of the show, which tells me it will become important at some point in the (obviously, near) future.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

danielhart said:


> I still want to know where they got that huge ass chain they pulled him out of the water from ...


Their neighborhood Chains 'R Us store.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> They can't swim. They can't cross water. Remember they stood at the shore of the frozen pond until they realized it was frozen and could support them. Euron and Yara have both talked about going to the Iron Islands where they'll be safe.
> 
> I also wondered how they chained up the dragon to get him out of the water.


Maybe there's an elite Navy SEALS version of the white walkers or wights


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Speaking of pregnancies......I'm suspicious of how many times it's been brought to our attention recently that Dany "can't have children". I have a feeling she's going to wind up pregnant.

And by saying recently, I'm also including the end of last season. I just binge watched Sunday and it's all sort of run together in my mind.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't follow Yara's plan. So she takes over the Iron islands because Euron is not there. Then what? Euron would come back with his fleet and takes the islands from her in a matter of minutes, right? all the while, she's missing the war that matters.

Did Euron break her? she's not the type to shy away from a fight and she certainly pledged her support to the Danny...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I don't follow Yara's plan. So she takes over the Iron islands because Euron is not there. Then what? Euron would come back with his fleet and takes the islands from her in a matter of minutes, right? all the while, she's missing the war that matters.
> 
> Did Euron break her? she's not the type to shy away from a fight and she certainly pledged her support to the Danny...


What difference could she possibly make in the war that matters? When the greatest armies the world has ever seen (plus dragons on both sides) clash hundreds of miles from the sea, three ships aren't going to help very much...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Why is Yara still alive anyway? To prove for the millionth time that tv and movie villains are morons?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Murder is a gift that you only get once. But torture is a gift that just keeps on giving...


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What difference could she possibly make in the war that matters? When the greatest armies the world has ever seen (plus dragons on both sides) clash hundreds of miles from the sea, three ships aren't going to help very much...


At some point wasn't there at least mentioned a plan for Yara (or Theon?) to go back to the Iron Islands to have them ready as a place of respite for Dany should things get too dicey with the dead? Or did I imagine that?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

From Woot today:


----------



## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Jstkiddn said:


> At some point wasn't there at least mentioned a plan for Yara (or Theon?) to go back to the Iron Islands to have them ready as a place of respite for Dany should things get too dicey with the dead? Or did I imagine that?


Yara did say it to Theon.


----------



## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Their neighborhood Chains 'R Us store.


Puhlease, you know that Castle Depot is your goto place for chains and other hardware! Plus I think Chains 'R us went out of business.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mitkraft said:


> Puhlease, you know that Castle Depot is your goto place for chains and other hardware! Plus I think Chains 'R us went out of business.


It died, and became a minion of the Night King.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What difference could she possibly make in the war that matters? When the greatest armies the world has ever seen (plus dragons on both sides) clash hundreds of miles from the sea, three ships aren't going to help very much...


By the same token, what difference would anyone make? might as well each not go to the battle. It just seemed out of character and she seemed defeated on that ship. it wasn't exactly Joffrey leaving the front lines because his mom had something urgent to discuss with him, but it sure sounded like a weak excuse not to go where the action was.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Something that important found out off screen? Not this show. That's not just huge news to Dany because it's her dragon but that's really important news because now it's not just foot soldiers they have to figure out how to kill. A normal dragon is hard enough but an undead one?? How are they not all freaking out about that??


I'd put my money on two normal fire-breathing dragons beating one zombie ice dragon.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

mrdazzo7 said:


> *I had seen pieces of episodes in previous seasons (usually when I came across Emilia Clarke while channel surfing ) and I got the impression that Daenrys' was liberating people held by slave owners because she was a "for the people" kind of chick. But then she killed Jon Snow's friend's dad and brother because they wouldn't "bend the knee" and accept her rule? Obviously I misinterpreted something in the earlier episodes I'd seen. It just seemed odd that she'd be all uppity about these other governors treating their people like slaves, only to execute anyone who didn't submit to her.


She's more or less for the _powerless_ people; especially slaves[1], but she has basically no compassion for the powerful (who are usually the ones abusing the powerless). So yeah, when she captures the head of a noble house that had been fighting against her army she had no compulsion compunction about demanding they either serve her or die. They chose die -- though executing them by dragon fire was a nasty touch.

[1] Though in a myopic, only when she notices the issues, kind of way; and her actions are sometimes far less beneficial than she intended.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> How did there ever get to be that many dead people that far north, anyway?


Centuries of wildlings


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I predicted that the battle with the Night King will be over by episode 3 (or 4 at the latest) and the rest will be ...


Do people think the NK will be defeated so thoroughly that there will be no need to guard the wall -- no need for a Nights Watch? (Not that many are left.)



Anubys said:


> I don't follow Yara's plan. So she takes over the Iron islands because Euron is not there. Then what? Euron would come back with his fleet and takes the islands from her in a matter of minutes, right? all the while, she's missing the war that matters.
> 
> Did Euron break her? she's not the type to shy away from a fight and she certainly pledged her support to the Danny...


I'd forgotten the pledge to Dany. At the time it felt like they were just finishing off her character and we wouldn't see her again.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

tlc said:


> Do people think the NK will be defeated so thoroughly that there will be no need to guard the wall -- no need for a Nights Watch? (Not that many are left.)


I'm half expecting the Night King to _win_ so decisively that the final few episodes are the living survivors scrambling futilely for any sanctuary they can find (while still feuding with each other). Who ends up on the Iron Throne? The Night King!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I don't follow Yara's plan. So she takes over the Iron islands because Euron is not there. Then what? Euron would come back with his fleet and takes the islands from her in a matter of minutes, right? all the while, she's missing the war that matters.
> 
> Did Euron break her? she's not the type to shy away from a fight and she certainly pledged her support to the Danny...


Not sure she has too much background or familiarity with the White Walker saga. But an opportunity to take back that which she most wants? Seems like a good play. And who know when and with how many troops Euron returns. She can certainly prepare for his return. I think it's a pretty good plan -- she doesn't have many choices really.


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Their neighborhood Chains 'R Us store.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> It died, and became a minion of the Night King.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> I'm half expecting the Night King to _win_ so decisively that the final few episodes are the living survivors scrambling futilely for any sanctuary they can find (while still feuding with each other). Who ends up on the Iron Throne? The Night King!


I do feel we need more shows where evil wins. I hope GOT does like Avengers and kills off a lot of our favorites, and I think we all fully expect at least that much.

... and I think we don't expect a LOTR miracle pulled out at the last moment.

That leaves a Night King victory or a Westeros with humans almost wiped out, or at least the soldiers/kings mostly dead.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> She's more or less for the _powerless_ people; especially slaves[1], but she has basically no compassion for the powerful (who are usually the ones abusing the powerless). So yeah, when she captures the head of a noble house that had been fighting against her army she had no compulsion about demanding they either serve her or die. They chose die -- though executing them by dragon fire was a nasty touch.
> 
> [1] Though in a myopic, only when she notices the issues, kind of way; and her actions are sometimes far less beneficial than she intended.


This is also why I am not sure I like Daenrys anymore. At the beginning of the series, she was the outcast and the "rightful" heir to the Iron Throne. While she never gave that up, she was willing to stop and help the lower class. But, is she really any better than her father? I think that we accepted her using her dragons against the slaves traders because they were "bad people". But were the Tarleys deserving of the same fate?


----------



## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> But were the Tarleys deserving of the same fate?


Well they were fighting in the army of Cersei Lannister (as noblemen and not slaves/peeons btw) so its hard to say they were exactly "good guys". Plus the way Lord Tarley treated his only (and nothing but nice) son may indeed be an indicator that he is the type of person who has done things to deserve that fate.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> This is also why I am not sure I like Daenrys anymore. At the beginning of the series, she was the outcast and the "rightful" heir to the Iron Throne. While she never gave that up, she was willing to stop and help the lower class. But, is she really any better than her father? I think that we accepted her using her dragons against the slaves traders because they were "bad people". But were the Tarleys deserving of the same fate?


Yeah, she kinda painted herself into a corner on that one. Give an ultimatum and they call your bluff... d'oh.

I chalk it up as Leadership Learning Curve. She'll do better. The Tarleys were punks anyway.  And part of the noble-class wheel she wants to break.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> I do feel we need more shows where evil wins. I hope GOT does like Avengers and kills off a lot of our favorites, and I think we all fully expect at least that much.
> 
> ... and I think we don't expect a LOTR miracle pulled out at the last moment.
> 
> That leaves a Night King victory or a Westeros with humans almost wiped out, or at least the soldiers/kings mostly dead.


I'm predicting humanity pretty much wiped out because, being human, they simply can't get past their differences to fight the bigger enemy. The Night King won't give a flying fig about some stupid iron throne. Dany's vision in the House of the Undead with a snow-covered throne room and empty iron throne is what I think we'll see.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> I'd put my money on two normal fire-breathing dragons beating one zombie ice dragon.


Would you though? While the Night King sits away from the hand combat tossing spears at them? I'm not so confident.



TriBruin said:


> This is also why I am not sure I like Daenrys anymore. At the beginning of the series, she was the outcast and the "rightful" heir to the Iron Throne. While she never gave that up, she was willing to stop and help the lower class. But, is she really any better than her father? I think that we accepted her using her dragons against the slaves traders because they were "bad people". But were the Tarleys deserving of the same fate?


The father probably did but Tyrion was right in trying to talk her out of it, too bad she didn't listen to him. I do like her but she's very questionable at times... and I forgot to mention before her veiled threat at Sansa "well if she can't respect me......." then what Dany? Death for her too?


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

What is the NK's end goal? Kill all the humans? Freeze the world? Build a nice nsummer place in Kight's Landing? 

Seems he will run out of fresh meat eventually.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Would you though?


Yes, I would.

The queen and her dragons were overly confident last time. They'll be much more aware this next battle and know the enemy better. And foreshadowing may tell us they'll both have riders this next time.

It'll be a great fight for sure. But my bet is that ice dragon goes down.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> Yes, I would.
> 
> The queen and her dragons were overly confident last time. They'll be much more aware this next battle and know the enemy better. And foreshadowing may tell us they'll both have riders this next time.
> 
> It'll be a great fight for sure. But my bet is that ice dragon goes down.


What do you feel are the chances she loses at least one of her remaining dragons in the process?


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Maybe she'll be able to turn the zombie dragon against the king. They keep reinforcing that she has a strong bond with her dragons.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Now, that would be an interesting twist. They have mentioned that multiple times, along with the deceased Jon bits. He better not turn blue-eyed, yet still fully functional, or somesuch craziness!


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

SoBelle0 said:


> Now, that would be an interesting twist. They have mentioned that multiple times, along with the deceased Jon bits. He better not turn blue-eyed, yet still fully functional, or somesuch craziness!


Well, his uncle did.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> What do you feel are the chances she loses at least one of her remaining dragons in the process?


Makes sense she loses another one. Will it be Jon's or hers? 

There's also a thought that Bran worgs into the bad dragon and somehow helps win this battle that way. Seems a bit of a cop-out to me, but it's possible.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I'm also curious about Arya's list. Seemed to be a really big thing to her for a while. Is she over it?

Still some big names on her list: Cersie, Mountain, Hound, Melisandre. Heck, if she's just stop being lazy we could end the human-side of this battle in no time.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Question about the zombie dragon. Like the other zombies, he is beginning to rot and decay. There are already noticeable holes in his wings. At what point, if any, will he be unable to fly any longer?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tlc said:


> Do people think the NK will be defeated so thoroughly that there will be no need to guard the wall -- no need for a Nights Watch? (Not that many are left.)


Well, we've seen before where if you kill a WW, the Wights he made die instantly. So the theory is that if the NK is killed, all the dead will return to their original state (dead!) 

As for Danny: too often, she is a self-righteous, entitled, B-word. She has done a lot of good but I'm really sick of her "I'm a Queen" act. As Tywin told Joffrey, if you have to keep yelling "I'm the king", you're not.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Question about the zombie dragon. Like the other zombies, he is beginning to rot and decay. There are already noticeable holes in his wings. At what point, if any, will he be unable to fly any longer?


I thought that exact same thing. You gotta really flap wings hard when there are holes in them.

Like sailing a boat with ripped sails. Doesn't work too well.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Well, we've seen before where if you kill a WW, the Wights he made die instantly. So the theory is that if the NK is killed, all the dead will return to their original state (dead!)
> 
> As for Danny: too often, she is a self-righteous, entitled, B-word. She has done a lot of good but I'm really sick of her "I'm a Queen" act. As Tywin told Joffrey, if you have to keep yelling "I'm the king", you're not.


I believe over the years the WW have taken 100 baby boys from Kratcher. As the Night King gets the babies, he touches them and they become WW. And I suppose they all go off and make wights as quickly as they can.

Kratcher had a bunch of women/daughters making lots of babies. So there could easily be 100+ WW needing killing to eliminate every wight out there.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I believe over the years the WW have taken 100 baby boys from Kratcher. As the Night King gets the babies, he touches them and they become WW. And I suppose they all go off and make wights as quickly as they can.
> 
> Kratcher had a bunch of women/daughters making lots of babies. So there could easily be 100+ WW needing killing to eliminate every wight out there.


But if it's a ponzi scheme/pyramid type of deal, you only need to kill the NK...What's his name...dandarion of the Brotherhood hinted as much...


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> I'm also curious about Arya's list. Seemed to be a really big thing to her for a while. Is she over it?
> 
> Still some big names on her list: Cersie, Mountain, Hound, Melisandre. Heck, if she's just stop being lazy we could end the human-side of this battle in no time.


Good point! Arya's superpower is faceless assassination, not battlefield melees. Cersei wouldn't see her coming, especially while the big battle with the dead is going on. She could wear Cersei's face until the Northerners got there, then surrender.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> But if it's a ponzi scheme/pyramid type of deal, you only need to kill the NK...What's his name...dandarion of the Brotherhood hinted as much...


It only makes sense...they wouldn't all die because you killed the Night King. But if you killed the Night King, then the ones he made would die. And when they died, then the ones they made would die. And so on, and so on...


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Kratcher had a bunch of women/daughters making lots of babies. So there could easily be 100+ WW needing killing to eliminate every wight out there.


This raises questions.

WWs must age? Or do we have a lot of 6lb 9oz WWs strapped to dead horses?

Do they age at our rate? When are they fit for command? If they age, do they "die" of old age?

Do baby WWs need childcare? Or do you just toss them in the snowbank until they're old enough to come to you?


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Ok, wacky idea du jour ...Jon's "death" matters because he's now the perfect embodiment of "Ice and Fire": Son of a Stark (Ice) and a Targaryan (Fire); he died, so he's technically [un]dead (Ice), but was revived by the power of the Red God (Fire), etc.

Maybe Jons kills the NK, and in so doing becomes the new King of the Dead; combining that with his rightful rule of the Seven Kingdoms (and/or through a pact w/ Dany?), he finally "brings balance to the Force Westeros". Yada yada yada, happily ever after, etc.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm on Team Night King. He's cool. He needs a band playing his theme song following him around whenever he appears onscreen.

But seriously, Dany is so hot I'd root for her even if she were the Westeros equivalent of a Cowboys, Yankees and Celtics fan.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> But if it's a ponzi scheme/pyramid type of deal, you only need to kill the NK...What's his name...dandarion of the Brotherhood hinted as much...


Hmm...

I thought when you killed a WW, the wights he created die. Not the WW he created.

Do we know for sure?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Jaime has Valyrian steel, right?

Perhaps he's called Kingslayer for another reason... We gotta think he talks his way into joining the fight against the dead, right?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> Jaime has Valyrian steel, right?
> 
> Perhaps he's called Kingslayer for another reason... We gotta think he talks his way into joining the fight against the dead, right?


I should hope so. If execution is how he dies I'll be sorely disappointed.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It only makes sense...they wouldn't all die because you killed the Night King. But if you killed the Night King, then the ones he made would die. And when they died, then the ones they made would die. And so on, and so on...


Like a faberge shampoo commercial.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> Hmm...
> 
> I thought when you killed a WW, the wights he created die. Not the WW he created.
> 
> Do we know for sure?


Night king creates White Walkers. White Walkers create Wights. If you kill a WW, the Wights he created die. Ergo, if you kill the NK, the WW (all the WW) would die. If all the WW die, all the Wights die.

As Dandarion said. All you need is to kill the one on top and the whole thing collapses.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

uncdrew said:


> Jaime has Valyrian steel, right?


He should have Widow's Wail- Joffrey's sword. But he can't really fight well since losing his hand.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Saturn_V said:


> He should have Widow's Wail- Joffrey's sword. But he can't really fight well since losing his hand.


I thought he gave that to Brienne, Oath Keeper. He has his own sword (his father made two from Ned's sword)


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Anubys said:


> He knew the kid survived, was a cripple for life, and could not remember what happened. He does not know that he is now the 3-eyed raven and knows everything. He was just shocked to see him there waiting for him. Jaime is actually a decent person living inside an evil guy.
> 
> Killing the father and son Tarley was a mistake. Everyone knew it was a mistake and told her so but she got stubborn and did it.
> 
> One correction: ruling the 7 kingdoms doesn't mean you rule the world. There's a whole other continent (where Danny got all her armies, actually) on the other side. But this is the continent that counts


Apologies if this is a bit of a smeek...

But imo executing the Tarley's wasn't a mistake at all. They took up arms against her, on behalf of evil Cersei. They then refused to bend the knee. In this world that's treason. And she was correct in disagreeing with Tyrion* about putting them in chains. That opens a whole can of worms and would have been weak in that moment. They needed to be made an example imo.

It was certainly unfortunate, especially given Sam and Jon's relationship (which she had no idea about at the time) but it wasn't a mistake.

*Tyrion's counsel overall has left a great deal to be desired. Pretty much everything he has pushed has had bad results. The worst was his idea to bring a wight to Cersei. Resulted in the Night King getting his hands on a dragon and demolishing the wall (remember that Benjen said that their was magic in the wall beyond it being a physical barrier which prohibited the dead from passing as long as it stood). So now the Army of the Dead is marching on the North while Cersei nefariously plots and plans against them in the south.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Night king creates White Walkers. White Walkers create Wights. If you kill a WW, the Wights he created die. Ergo, if you kill the NK, the WW (all the WW) would die. If all the WW die, all the Wights die.
> 
> As Dandarion said. All you need is to kill the one on top and the whole thing collapses.


Yeah, I 99% think this is correct. But no one really knows, right? I mean until you kill the Night King, it's just a theory.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> So yeah, when she captures the head of a noble house that had been fighting against her army she had no compulsion about demanding they either serve her or die.


compunction*


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I thought he gave that to Brienne, Oath Keeper. He has his own sword (his father made two from Ned's sword)


Yeah, I looked it up.

Ice, a Stark sword was melted down by Tywin Lannister into Oath Keeper which went to Jaime, and Widow's Wail that went to Joffrey.

Jaime gave Oath-Keeper to Brienne. Jaime now has Widow's Wail.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I thought he gave that to Brienne, Oath Keeper. He has his own sword (his father made two from Ned's sword)


Oathkeeper and WW were the two swords made from Robb's sword. OK is larger and was given to Jaime from Tywin, who then gave the smaller WW to Joffrey as a wedding gift. Jaime gave OK to Brienne. WW stayed in the Red Keep unused until Jaime came back from retaking Riverrun, he started wearing it at some point after that because he had it when he killed Olenna. So he should still have it. Brienne has OK.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

danielhart said:


> *Tyrion's counsel overall has left a great deal to be desired. Pretty much everything he has pushed has had bad results. The worst was his idea to bring a wight to Cersei. Resulted in the Night King getting his hands on a dragon and demolishing the wall


But also he tried his hardest to advise her NOT to fly her dragons up there to help and she refused his advise so the NK getting her dragon is on her not him. But yeah he's been really bad with advice on more than one occassion (aka the slave masters, attacking Casterly Rock). I still don't think burning men alive was a just punishment for what she considered treason..... which if they had bent the knee to her would have made them treasonous to the Lannisters, whom they had already sworn loyalty sooooo......


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

danielhart said:


> Oathkeeper and WW were the two swords made from Robb's sword.


Ned's sword. Robb never got it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

danielhart said:


> Apologies if this is a bit of a smeek...
> 
> But imo executing the Tarley's wasn't a mistake at all. They took up arms against her, on behalf of evil Cersei. They then refused to bend the knee. In this world that's treason. And she was correct in disagreeing with Tyrion* about putting them in chains. That opens a whole can of worms and would have been weak in that moment. They needed to be made an example imo.
> 
> ...


Well, treason is a big stretch. He was sworn to the current rulers and she was the invader. If you go as far as saying this is a civil war (which is a stretch, Danny was a foreign invader), nobody on either side is a traitor. Varys was also upset about it and everyone thought that killing Lords would only serve to harden those already against them. Better to put them in chains for the duration or send them to serve in the Night's Watch.

This was a big political and tactical mistake when allies were in short supply. The fact that it now ends up being an even bigger mistake is just deserts.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> But also he tried his hardest to advise her NOT to fly her dragons up there to help and she refused his advise so the NK getting her dragon is on her not him. But yeah he's been really bad with advice on more than one occassion (aka the slave masters, attacking Casterly Rock). I still don't think burning men alive was a just punishment for what she considered treason..... which if they had bent the knee to her would have made them treasonous to the Lannisters, whom they had already sworn loyalty sooooo......


I guess it depends on where one decides where the chain of events begins. IMO he sent them on a fool's errand and Dany would never had to go save them absent that.

As to the "treason cycle" (for lack of a better way to put it lol) I agree it would have been treason against the Lannisters if they had bent the knee to Dany. And it would have been up to Cersei to deal with that if she ever had the means and opportunity.

It's like Randall Tarley himself said, war entails making difficult/impossible choices. I just think that in the grand scheme of things the execution of two enemy combatants who refused to bend the knee would be of no really great consequence absent the connection to Sam.

Actually, thinking about it some more and with hindsight being 20 20, the better decision would have been a forced sparing of Dickon (that name always makes me giggle). If she refused to allow him to stand with his father it would have shown both strength and mercy. Although he probably would have needed to be locked up for a long time lest he try and obtain vengeance

But imo Randall Tarley had to go. And I'm fine with him being torched by the dragons as part of setting a strong example.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> This was a big political and tactical mistake when allies were in short supply. The fact that it now ends up being an even bigger mistake is just deserts.


Although Tarly made it clear he was never going to be an ally, and his continued existence would only encourage others to follow his example.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Bottom line to me is that they were all given a choice to bend the knee or burn. Tarley blatantly and vocally defied her and made his choice. She needed to show that she meant business and that her word is bond. 

And as soon as he was torched the rest of those who were hesitant immediately bent the knee. Was it out of fear? Of course. But imo it was also out of respect of her strength and conviction.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although Tarly made it clear he was never going to be an ally, and his continued existence would only encourage others to follow his example.


And just from a practical POV she wasn't really in a good position to keep POWs in chains. Big pita where she either has to drag them along with her or ferry them back to Dragonstone. She's a very busy woman imo....


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

JETarpon said:


> Ned's sword. Robb never got it.


Huh. If you say so and are certain then I was mistaken. I really thought it was Robb's and Tywin took it after the Red Wedding. Was Robb's sword not even Valerian steel then?


----------



## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

danielhart said:


> Huh. If you say so and are certain then I was mistaken. I really thought it was Robb's and Tywin took it after the Red Wedding. Was Robb's sword not even Valerian steel then?


Looked it up and I was indeed wrong and Robb's sword was nothing special. I think it was the timing of Ice being reforged after the Red Wedding which threw me off.

I'll need to have my GoT card temporarily suspended imo....heh


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although Tarly made it clear he was never going to be an ally, and his continued existence would only encourage others to follow his example.


Not the Tarleys...but Jaime and Cersei were going around telling everyone about the horde or invaders, the Dothrakies were there to kill the men and rape the women (or was it kill the women and rape the men?*)...blah blah blah...the story of how she burned 2 Lords with her dragons would only serve to help Cersei's recruitment efforts.

It was a very big political blunder. I have so ruled. Speak no more of it.



* What about the Bears? Tormund wondered


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> But also he tried his hardest to advise her NOT to fly her dragons up there to help and she refused his advise so the NK getting her dragon is on her not him. But yeah he's been really bad with advice on more than one occassion (aka the slave masters, attacking Casterly Rock). I still don't think burning men alive was a just punishment for what she considered treason..... which if they had bent the knee to her would have made them treasonous to the Lannisters, whom they had already sworn loyalty sooooo......


Although he managed to (essentially) take out Houses Tyrell and Martell with his "bad" advice........hmmmm.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

How many entire houses have been wiped out through the course of this show?

Tyrell
Martell
Frey
Bolton

Who am I missing? You could argue the Tarley house is gone since Sam is (currently) a member of the Night's Watch and needed to renounce his claim to his title. Of course Dani could release him and restore him to his house.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

You have to admit, perhaps the greatest achievement in the history of Game of Thrones was wiping out House Frey...Arya must be exhausted!


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

PJO1966 said:


> How many entire houses have been wiped out through the course of this show?
> 
> Tyrell
> Martell
> ...


Baratheon is gone, too.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Is Umber also all gone?


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Baelish


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JETarpon said:


> Baelish


Well, he tried...even created a sigil, but it was a house of 1 so not much of a destruction


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)




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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Well, he tried...even created a sigil, but it was a house of 1 so not much of a destruction


He did not create the House, though. His grandfather was the first Lord Baelish.

Before its extinction, House Bolton was also a house of 1.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

This is one of those many cases where I wish I could get the forum to use something other than the target article title for the hotlink. 

Ouch! One Of Kit Harington's Balls Got Stuck While Filming The Premiere's Dragon Scene


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

kdmorse said:


> This is one of those many cases where I wish I could get the forum to use something other than the target article title for the hotlink.
> 
> Ouch! One Of Kit Harington's Balls Got Stuck While Filming The Premiere's Dragon Scene


You can like this


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## KevinG (Sep 3, 2003)

Anubys said:


> The fact that it now ends up being an even bigger mistake is just deserts.


I was about to suggest that you meant "desserts" but thought I should check myself before doing so. Turns out this is more interesting than I expected:

Just deserts vs. just desserts - Correct Spelling - Grammarist


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

The dessert that you eat has the letter "s" twice. Because you always want to go back for seconds.

Now you'll never forget.


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## KevinG (Sep 3, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> The dessert that you eat has the letter "s" twice. Because you always want to go back for seconds.
> 
> Now you'll never forget.


No, I knew that. Check the link I posted. It isn't wrong or right the way it is currently posted. It's pronounced "dezzerts", but may be spelled "deserts", as in "The soldier deserted."

So "just desserts" has become common, but isn't necessarily correct. But, because it has become common, it is also becoming or became correct. (Or, at least acceptable.)


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JETarpon said:


> He did not create the House, though. His grandfather was the first Lord Baelish.
> 
> Before its extinction, House Bolton was also a house of 1.


I seem to recall Cersei talking to Peter (just before she educated him on the meaning of Power) about his sigil and how he is trying to create a "house" where none existed before...maybe he was a "minor" house or something?

As for the Boltons, well...that's not what I meant...Frey was also down to 1 at the end so that's just a technicality. All houses are down to the last one at some point before that one is killed...my point about Peter is that he tried to create a major house and died before doing so.



KevinG said:


> I was about to suggest that you meant "desserts" but thought I should check myself before doing so. Turns out this is more interesting than I expected:
> 
> Just deserts vs. just desserts - Correct Spelling - Grammarist


Learned something new (and glad I wasn't wrong). just deserts is not so obsolete, I say! 

I had never heard of just desserts...any dessert is a plus so - in my mind - the expression would make no sense if someone got something sweet as a reward and not punishment!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

KevinG said:


> No, I knew that. Check the link I posted. It isn't wrong or right the way it is currently posted. It's pronounced "dezzerts", but may be spelled "deserts", as in "The soldier deserted."
> 
> So "just desserts" has become common, but isn't necessarily correct. But, because it has become common, it is also becoming or became correct. (Or, at least acceptable.)


And since "desert" in the sense of "something you deserve" is obsolete, one could argue that "just deserts" is also obsolete...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And since "desert" in the sense of "something you deserve" is obsolete, one could argue that "just deserts" is also obsolete...


only one? this is TCF...I bet you we can easily find 100 who could argue this to death!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> only one? this is TCF...I bet you we can easily find 100 who could argue this to death!


Dude, this is Game of Thrones. I think you're looking for the Big Bang Theory thread...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Oh look it only took 14 pages to fall off topic


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh look it only took 14 pages to fall off topic


I'm sitting tight, even as we go off track, waiting for one of your GOT GIFS!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

markp99 said:


> I'm sitting tight, even as we go off track, waiting for one of your GOT GIFS!


And I was trying to behave and not post a bunch!! So here's my favorites!


Spoiler


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Also someone posted this on tumblr and I laughed much harder than I should have!

Jon Snow shutting down every argument after tonight:


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

KevinG said:


> No, I knew that. Check the link I posted. It isn't wrong or right the way it is currently posted. It's pronounced "dezzerts", but may be spelled "deserts", as in "The soldier deserted."
> 
> So "just desserts" has become common, but isn't necessarily correct. But, because it has become common, it is also becoming or became correct. (Or, at least acceptable.)


Gotcha. My comment was more a PSA for everyone, not a reply to your post.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Reading GOT conspiracy theories is kind of fun.

Is Littlefinger really dead?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> Reading GOT conspiracy theories is kind of fun.
> 
> Is Littlefinger really dead?


I wish not!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I wish not!


I was going to make a joke along the lines of "he's dead, Jim"...but dead doesn't mean what we think it means on this show...although I assume that everyone now burns their dead so neither the NK nor the Lord of Light can bring them back...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

and why isn't the Night King called the Ice King?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I wish not!


One conspiracy theory says that he was one step ahead of Arya & Sansa and had a faceless person somehow assume his likeness and be at the meeting.

Makes very little sense to me -- not sure how he'd convince someone to do that and how would they get his face is he's alive. *shrug*

I'm quite happy he died.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> and why isn't the Night King called the Ice King?


Or the Winter King.

Winter is coming.

"Hi, I'm Winter!"


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> One conspiracy theory says that he was one step ahead of Arya & Sansa and had a faceless person somehow assume his likeness and be at the meeting.
> 
> Makes very little sense to me -- not sure how he'd convince someone to do that and how would they get his face is he's alive. *shrug*
> 
> I'm quite happy he died.


That makes zero sense. There's no way he's not deader than dead. I just liked his character..... in the way that he was fascinating because of how cunning he was. Well until he wasn't which I found to be not really in character for how clever he's been throughout the series but I digress.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> That makes zero sense. There's no way he's not deader than dead. I just liked his character..... in the way that he was fascinating because of how cunning he was. Well until he wasn't which I found to be not really in character for how clever he's been throughout the series but I digress.


I'm not so sure. He always had invincible confidence in his own cleverness, and I can see where he could simply not understand that somebody else could be more clever than he was.

And let's face it...he'd never dealt with somebody like Arya before!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not so sure. He always had invincible confidence in his own cleverness, and I can see where he could simply not understand that somebody else could be more clever than he was.
> 
> And let's face it...he'd never dealt with somebody like Arya before!


I think he just didn't realize the Stark's family bond will always win out over anything. He really thought he could drive a wedge of distrust and deceit between them and charm his way into the top spot as he had with their cray cray auntie, especially given how Sansa and Arya fought growing up.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anyhow, I've now watched this episode 3x and I'm really really bothered by how they are writing Tyrion and by the fact that Dany barely reacted to the news of her dragon. *sigh*


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

wedgecon said:


> Sam's father was very cruel to him, but he did get along well with his brother, sisters and mother.


I listened to my favorite podcast (Cast of Kings) about GoT and Joanna Robinson mentioned that they changed Dickon's character when he was recast. The original Dickon was a dick to Sam...LOL


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I think he just didn't realize the Stark's family bond will always win out over anything. He really thought he could drive a wedge of distrust and deceit between them and charm his way into the top spot as he had with their cray cray auntie, especially given how Sansa and Arya fought growing up.


But the fact that Sansa and Arya figured out he was trying to play them against each other was just the icing on the cake. Sansa also accused him of many other misdeeds which he thought he had been so sneaky about. But of course, it's hard to be clever and sneaky when the people you're trying to keep information from have a Three-Eyed Raven on their team.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Or the Winter King.
> 
> Winter is coming.
> 
> "Hi, I'm Winter!"


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I know it's not for everyone, But Jonathan Van Ness (from Queer Eye) is back doing his Gay of Thrones recaps.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

KevinG said:


> So "just desserts" has become common, but isn't necessarily correct. But, because it has become common, it is also becoming or became correct. (Or, at least acceptable.)


As an old person, I hate when that happens.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I seem to recall Cersei talking to Peter (just before she educated him on the meaning of Power) about his sigil and how he is trying to create a "house" where none existed before...maybe he was a "minor" house or something?





> House Baelish began with Petyr's great-grandfather, a common sellsword from Braavos who traveled to Westeros to take up service with House Corbray in the Vale of Arryn. The sellsword's son, Petyr's grandfather, was a poor wandering hedge knight, who managed to earn a minor lordship - the most minor of lordships, just a few stony acres in the smallest peninsula of the Fingers, with a small keep to reside in.


House Baelish

Though he was made Lord of Harrenhal, so not minor any longer.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

This page lists the houses for each of the seven kingdoms, and which are extinct.

Noble house


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also someone posted this on tumblr and I laughed much harder than I should have!
> 
> Jon Snow shutting down every argument after tonight:


The irony is that apparently, cheating on his mom and having a child out of wedlock is more honorable than saving a child from certain death by lying and saying that it was your own bastard son.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also someone posted this on tumblr and I laughed much harder than I should have!
> 
> Jon Snow shutting down every argument after tonight:


Speaking of Tony Hale, this gave me a good laugh. The HBO crossover we need...


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

vertigo235 said:


> The irony is that apparently, cheating on his mom and having a child out of wedlock is more honorable than saving a child from certain death by lying and saying that it was your own bastard son.


Yeah the whole Ned was the most honorable man alive may be true but not exactly with the story he was telling everyone.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I seem to recall other characters commenting on how incongruous it was for Honorable Ned to have cheated on his wife and bring his bastard son home.

But one could say that Ned was so principled that he willingly took the hit to his reputation to keep his promise to his sister to protect his nephew.


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

Also the fact that cheating and having bastard sons isn’t that big of a deal in that world.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mitkraft said:


> Also the fact that cheating and having bastard sons isn't that big of a deal in that world.


Exactly. This is a world where there is an established surname for bastards based on the area of the country where they were born, so having children out of wedlock is extremely common. Being legitimate is really only an issue for religious and inheritance reasons. Otherwise, it's meaningless.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mitkraft said:


> Also the fact that cheating and having bastard sons isn't that big of a deal in that world.


Or rather, it was less of a big deal for everybody else than it was for Ned (and Cate), and he was willing to take the hit to his personal pride (and his marriage) in order to protect Egg.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought this was a very interesting and informative article even though my eyes glazed over at the detailed description of the origin of the Golden Company. It has information from the book and some speculation but I don't consider them spoilers. If you do, don't click the link. Seven questions are asked and answered.

Ask the Maester: Is Rhaegal Jon's Dragon Now?

Another article from the same source: How Did Tyrion Become the Dumbest Person in Westeros?

Some dirty words in both links but nothing that isn't used on the show itself.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> I thought this was a very interesting and informative article even though my eyes glazed over at the detailed description of the origin of the Golden Company. It has information from the book and some speculation but I don't consider them spoilers. If you do, don't click the link. Seven questions are asked and answered.
> 
> Ask the Maester: Is Rhaegal Jon's Dragon Now?
> 
> ...


Oh wow that article on Tyrion sums up my thoughts. He's being written so wrong lately and it makes me sad and a bit angry since he's my favorite character.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

*gasp* Won't Baelish be jealous?


Oh, wait...


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> *gasp* Won't Baelish be jealous?
> 
> Oh, wait...





Spoiler


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh wow that article on Tyrion sums up my thoughts. He's being written so wrong lately and it makes me sad and a bit angry since he's my favorite character.


I'm not so sure you can say he's being written wrong as the characters in the show are recognizing how he seems to be slipping which seems to indicate that's the intent, not sloppy/inconsistent writing that only the viewers are noticing.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh wow that article on Tyrion sums up my thoughts. He's being written so wrong lately and it makes me sad and a bit angry since he's my favorite character.


I think part of the problem there is that they've gone past the books, so he's not the GRRM version of Tyrion. That's true for a lot of the characters.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> I know it's not for everyone, But Jonathan Van Ness (from Queer Eye) is back doing his Gay of Thrones recaps.


I love him! Thanks for posting.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> I'm not so sure you can say he's being written wrong as the characters in the show are recognizing how he seems to be slipping which seems to indicate that's the intent, not sloppy/inconsistent writing that only the viewers are noticing.


There is the theory that he thinks Cersei is pregnant and while he's had issues with her, he truly loved his niece and nephews and seems to regret their deaths.
(Well, maybe not Joffrey's as much but certainly Tommen and Myrcella.)

We do know that Tyrion and Cersei had a meeting which we didn't see so we don't know what was said between them.
The theory is that Cersei played upon Tyrion's feelings of love for the children and especially the unborn one in promising support against the White Walkers.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

JYoung said:


> There is the theory that he thinks Cersei is pregnant and while he's had issues with her, he truly loved his niece and nephews and seems to regret their deaths.
> (Well, maybe not Joffrey's as much but certainly Tommen and Myrcella.)
> 
> We do know that Tyrion and Cersei had a meeting which we didn't see so we don't know what was said between them.
> The theory is that Cersei played upon Tyrion's feelings of love for the children and especially the unborn one in promising support against the White Walkers.


There are a few possible explanations and the writing may not be consistent with "old" tyrian but at least it is consistent within the shows current time.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Shakhari said:


> I think part of the problem there is that they've gone past the books, so he's not the GRRM version of Tyrion. That's true for a lot of the characters.


I think this is what's going on mostly. It's not a huge deal really since we are so close to the end but I do wish he was the same now.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

JYoung said:


> We do know that Tyrion and Cersei had a meeting which we didn't see so we don't know what was said between them.
> The theory is that Cersei played upon Tyrion's feelings of love for the children and especially the unborn one in promising support against the White Walkers.


Didn't we see this in the last episode of last season?

-smak-


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smak said:


> Didn't we see this in the last episode of last season?
> 
> -smak-


Yes. Not sure why he said we didn't see it. She led him on so he would figure out that she's pregnant and played him like a fiddle.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I don't think Tyrion's head is straight. All of his poor decisions seem to be in plotting against his family.

Anybody else, I think he doesn't buy them sending their army, but he believed Cersei 100%.

When Jaimie comes riding in, and (probably?) warns them that no army is coming, and that Sansa was right, you'd think maybe somebody tells him to get his head in the game, or resign as the Queen's hand.

-smak-


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Yes. Not sure why he said we didn't see it. She led him on so he would figure out that she's pregnant and played him like a fiddle.


Because we didn't see the end of that conversation where she actually agreed to help.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

smak said:


> Didn't we see this in the last episode of last season?


We saw them sit down to talk, and the beginning of the conversation. I seem to recall from the editing that it was implied that the real substantive discussion or dealmaking was not shown. (But I'd have to go back and watch)


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

kdmorse said:


> We saw them sit down to talk, and the beginning of the conversation. I seem to recall from the editing that it was implied that the real substantive discussion or dealmaking was not shown. (But I'd have to go back and watch)


I don't think we saw dealmaking, I don't even think there was any dealmaking. But he did know she was pregnant. She wanted Tyrion to think that he convinced her, to beat the army of the dead for her future son. Tyrion likes to think he can convince people.

She used that against him.

=smak-


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

@kdmorse 's point is that it was very strongly implied that there was further conversation between the two that we didn't see.
And that was my takeaway as well.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)




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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I really don't see it that way. Cersei came out to say that the Lannister army would join the fight, and there would be a truce until that war was over. Which was the same thing that was offered to her in the first place.

So what was the new deal?

-smak-


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

smak said:


> I really don't see it that way. Cersei came out to say that the Lannister army would join the fight, and there would be a truce until that war was over. Which was the same thing that was offered to her in the first place.
> 
> So what was the new deal?


What they offered was a truce -- she would withdraw her troops and not fight with them until the resolution of the war in the North.

The new deal was that she would actually send her army to help them win.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I don't know what made me think of this but are there any female bastards on this show?


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't know what made me think of this but are there any female bastards on this show?


Elleria Sand from Dorne.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't know what made me think of this but are there any female bastards on this show?


The Sand Snakes...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or rather, it was less of a big deal for everybody else than it was for Ned (and Cate), and he was willing to take the hit to his personal pride (and his marriage) in order to protect Egg.


Not sure why he never told his wife. Don't trust her? Hmm...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Not sure why he never told his wife. Don't trust her? Hmm...


Her not knowing (and her resultant hostility towards Jon) certainly sold the deception!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Are the Children of the Forest immortal or just have a long life span? If they are immortal, maybe killing the idiot who created the first WW would get rid of all the WWs and wights.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Are all of the dragons male? I seem to remember her saying they were all named after her brothers.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

PJO1966 said:


> Are all of the dragons male? I seem to remember her saying they were all named after her brothers.


Her brothers and Drago


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

We don't know for sure that killing the NK will get rid of all WWs and wights. First, we don't know if that is the first WW (doesn't really look like the man tied to the tree). Second, we don't know if the WW babies (like Craster's sons turned into WWs) will also be killed of their WW dies.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

wprager said:


> We don't know if that is the first WW (doesn't really look like the man tied to the tree).


Yes we do.


Spoiler



it's the same actor we saw tied to the tree


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> Are all of the dragons male? I seem to remember her saying they were all named after her brothers.


I heard/read something recently (can't remember where, but I remember thinking it was purporting to be "official") that said dragons in the Game of Thrones universe are genderless.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I heard/read something recently (can't remember where, but I remember thinking it was purporting to be "official") that said dragons in the Game of Thrones universe are genderless.


Interesting. Since they're fully grown (I assume) I was wondering why there weren't any eggs yet.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

PJO1966 said:


> Interesting. Since they're fully grown (I assume) I was wondering why there weren't any eggs yet.


Not making a joke...we also have seen they underbelly and not seen any penises...


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Not making a joke...we also have seen they underbelly and not seen any penises...


cloaca


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Not making a joke...we also have seen they underbelly and not seen any penises...


They could retract when not in use.


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## tim1724 (Jul 3, 2007)

ct1 said:


> cloaca





PJO1966 said:


> They could retract when not in use.


Yep, a male reptile's penis (or pair of hemipenes in the case of lizards or snakes) is kept inside the cloaca while not in use.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> They could retract when not in use.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

"I don't know how you guys walk around with those things"

My favorite line from the entire series.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

"Like a frightened turtle" is up there as well.
Many other memorable lines, too:
Breathtaking
Come and see the baby
Yo-Yo Ma/Boutros-Boutros Ghali


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

I know I'm very late to the thread and this won't be a popular opinion, but I thought this was one of the most disappointing episodes of the entire series.

I found the dragon scene and dialogue so cheesy, I was half-expecting Jon to say "I don't like sand snow."
Also, Arya calling Sansa the smartest person she ever met got an eye-roll. Of course, I've recently watched Season 1, where Sansa is the biggest dope in the land. I do realize how much she's grown and learned, and how strong she's had to be.
As others have mentioned, Tyrion's miscalculations seem terribly out of character. Somehow I doubt GRRM is going to write him that way.
This whole "King in the North" thing (everyone is upset Jon gave up his crown) seems forced, too. Wasn't the North getting along just fine without it's own "King" for quite some time until they named Robb? How long had it been before Robb? Hadn't they already bent the knee to a Baratheon, and generations of Targaryens before that?

I enjoyed Sam's scenes and Arya's, and looking forward to tomorrow night. This just felt like a waste of 1/6 of the remaining episodes.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

MacThor said:


> I know I'm very late to the thread and this won't be a popular opinion, but I thought this was one of the most disappointing episodes of the entire series.
> 
> I found the dragon scene and dialogue so cheesy, I was half-expecting Jon to say "I don't like sand snow."
> Also, Arya calling Sansa the smartest person she ever met got an eye-roll. Of course, I've recently watched Season 1, where Sansa is the biggest dope in the land. I do realize how much she's grown and learned, and how strong she's had to be.
> ...


I mostly agree , seemed like a poor usage of the limited time left.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I agree as well.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I thought it was a fantastic opening episode.


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

I am just waiting for Jorah Mormont to meet his niece/cousin? Lyanna. That could be an awkward moment.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

wedgecon said:


> I am just waiting for Jorah Mormont to meet his niece/cousin? Lyanna. That could be an awkward moment.


Yes.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

OMG, that would be weird for Jorah for sure. His father is her uncle, so they're cousins.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

wedgecon said:


> I am just waiting for Jorah Mormont to meet his niece/cousin? Lyanna. That could be an awkward moment.


I have no idea what you're talking about...


----------



## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about...


Jorah Mormont..AKA "Lord Friend Zone"









Lyanna Mormont


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

understood. My question is why awkward?


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> understood. My question is why awkward?


Technically, he's an outlaw. He abandoned his house and fled Westeros to keep his own head attached.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

She seems to be pretty...uptight. I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't approve of his return from exile, especially in the service of a queen she does not approve of.

For his part, he seems to have left that part of his life well behind him, and I doubt he will feel much beyond a bit of nostalgia at seeing his old lands and kin again.


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

Anubys said:


> understood. My question is why awkward?


Jorah was the former lord of Bear Island, after he took over his father joined the nights watch and became Lord Commander of the nights watch. Jorah became a famous knight and joined Ned Stark in Roberts Rebellion and later the storming of the Iron Islands. Jorah married a southern woman with expensive tastes and Bear Island was poor so Jorah started selling poachers on Bear Island to slavers in Essos. For this crime Ned Stark sentenced Jorah to death, he fled to Essos to avoid the punishment. Jorah was later pardoned by King Robert for spying on Daenerys.


----------



## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> She seems to be pretty...uptight. I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't approve of his return from exile, especially in the service of a queen she does not approve of.
> 
> For his part, he seems to have left that part of his life well behind him, and I doubt he will feel much beyond a bit of nostalgia at seeing his old lands and kin again.


That could be true, but he still wears his Bear Island armor which has somehow still survived.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Wasn't it Ned Stark who banished condemned him (Jorah)?
He's now part of Daenerys' Queensguard and was part of Jon's expedition to capture the wight. Jon even offered him Longclaw. So he's forgiven by the Starks.
He's also been pardoned by Robert Baratheon.

Lyanna doesn't have a whole lot to make him feel awkward about.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

appreciate the reply and the subsequent discussion. I was in the camp that thinks there would be no reason for awkwardness (I did know all those details). I had assumed everyone felt like I do and therefore also assumed I missed something that would make the reunion awkward 

On a totally different topic, watching right now as Brienne saves Sansa and pledges her sword to her. I teared up the first time I watched this scene and I completely choked up this time. Powerful scene and very well done by everyone. I really had to control myself so I would not cry.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> On a totally different topic, watching right now as Brienne saves Sansa and pledges her sword to her. I teared up the first time I watched this scene and I completely choked up this time. Powerful scene and very well done by everyone. I really had to control myself so I would not cry.


What if her loyalty to the Starks and love for Jaime is at odds. What side does she choose?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> What if her loyalty to the Starks and love for Jaime is at odds. What side does she choose?


I have no doubt that she would do as Sansa says (not the Starks, Sansa. She pledged her sword to Sansa). Sansa did say in her vow that she would not order her to do anything that would bring her (Brienne) dishonor. But given that Sansa and Jaime are now on the same side, I don't see why Sansa would order Brienne to kill Jaime.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> But given that Sansa and Jaime are now on the same side, I don't see why Sansa would order Brienne to kill Jaime.


Hopefully, he'll have a chance to tell her they're on the same side before she's all "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!"


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> I have no doubt that she would do as Sansa says (not the Starks, Sansa. She pledged her sword to Sansa). Sansa did say in her vow that she would not order her to do anything that would bring her (Brienne) dishonor. But given that Sansa and Jaime are now on the same side, I don't see why Sansa would order Brienne to kill Jaime.


Well if Bran tells them Jaime is the one that pushed him out of that window. (which for the record I do not believe he's going to do) .... it was just a hypothetical question of which you think she would choose if she had to. And you think she would allow Jaime to die over her loyalty to Sansa. I'm not so sure.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Well if Bran tells them Jaime is the one that pushed him out of that window. (which for the record I do not believe he's going to do) .... it was just a hypothetical question of which you think she would choose if she had to. And you think she would allow Jaime to die over her loyalty to Sansa. I'm not so sure.


Well, they did discuss that they would be fighting on opposite sides and hoped not to run into one another. So they were reconciled to that possibility back at River Run. We just have not seen anything to indicate that Brienne would choose anything but Honor and Duty. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect we will never know.

I just thought of a reunion we did not get: Meera coming back to Winterfell.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Hopefully, he'll have a chance to tell her they're on the same side before she's all "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!"


But Sansa's not the only one who has reason to scream "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!"

Or have people forgotten why they call Jaime "Kingslayer".


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> But Sansa's not the only one who has reason to scream "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!"
> 
> Or have people forgotten why they call Jaime "Kingslayer".


You mean that time he saved King's Landing from being burned to the ground?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You mean that time he saved King's Landing from being burned to the ground?


That's one interpretation. 

I'm sure that someone like Viserys had a different interpretation.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You mean that time he saved King's Landing from being burned to the ground?


Yeah, that time he killed Dany's father.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

heySkippy said:


> Yeah, that time he killed Dany's father.


Who she's been repeatedly told by people she trusts that he was crazycakes.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

But does she believe them enough to spare Jaime?

As I alluded to earlier, my guess would be that Viserys told her a different interpretation for years when they were growing up.
How complete is her acceptance considering that we're talking about her father?
(And family bonds do seem to be a big deal among the nobles.)

There's also the fact that many consider Jaime's deed to be fairly dishonorable.
Enough for them to refer to him as "Oath Breaker".
A smart leader has to consider how much they can trust Jaime.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

...aaaand, that's when Brienne vouches for him to Sansa and the rest!

full circle!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> But does she believe them enough to spare Jaime?
> 
> As I alluded to earlier, my guess would be that Viserys told her a different interpretation for years when they were growing up.
> How complete is her acceptance considering that we're talking about her father?
> ...


She has repeatedly indicated that her father was a bad person, and that she intends to be better. The people who consider Jaime's deed to be dishonorable are the ones who don't know what he actually did. I don't think Dany will have any problem with Jaime...although we'll know for sure in about three hours! I also don't think Bran will have any problem with him (I think he's well beyond that). I suspect the people who WILL have a problem with him are the ones whose problems are second-hand (e.g., Sansa).

I can see Dany making him squirm a little, though...she does sometimes have a somewhat puckishly cruel sense of humor.

And let's not lose sight of the fact that the reason he's here in the first place is he has abandoned his sister to join their side...


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

To be fair, I think that Daenerys at this point, is wise enough to recognize that she needs to overlook the past and work with people like Jaime considering the threat they're up against.

I'm just pointing out that she does (by Westeros standards) have a legitimate beef with him.

And the fact that Catelyn thought he was honorable (or honorable enough) should get him some credit from the Stark side as well.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Anubys said:


> ...aaaand, that's when Brienne vouches for him to Sansa and the rest!
> 
> full circle!


She'll come to the rescue with the full story, that he shared with her. Whether or not anyone believes her is another story.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

PJO1966 said:


> She'll come to the rescue with the full story, that he shared with her. Whether or not anyone believes her is another story.


Corroborated by Tyrion, who saw the catacombs and the wildfire. And the fact that Cersei also used it to destroy the sept building (I forget the name).

two hours and 15 minutes to go!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Apparently the episode leaked. I have people already spoiling things to me. I'm going to avoid the internet until 9pm.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Apparently the episode leaked. I have people already spoiling things to me. I'm going to avoid the internet until 9pm.


Last week's did as well. Looks like that's going to be a recurring problem this year.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm out as well. See you guys at the new thread at 10 PM


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Apparently the episode leaked. I have people already spoiling things to me. I'm going to avoid the internet until 9pm.


This is why one does laundry, vacuuming, and other and chores between 7pm and 9pm on a Sunday evening.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I'm just grateful that HBO Go streams the episode on east coast time and we don't need to wait until 9pm to start watching.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

watch out everyone...today's episode wasn't scheduled to be recorded for some reason...had to set it manually just now


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Anubys said:


> watch out everyone...today's episode wasn't scheduled to be recorded for some reason...had to set it manually just now


What provider?


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