# Tivo Monthly Pricing - Bye Bye...



## spectecjr (Jun 2, 2003)

In an era when I'd expect the monthly fee for the Tivo service to be dropping (after all, it's now more than a rented cable DVR box, and doesn't give me any services that my Xbox and WDTV Live box don't already do), all of a sudden, they're increasing the price?

I mean seriously?

It's guide data. I don't care about the other stuff. What I get out of Tivo is basically everything I've gotten since the beginning - programs recorded, plus suggestions. I don't use any other features.

Well, Tivo... its been nice. But enough is enough. Subscription is cancelled as of June 8th. Everything else I can get on my computer, or my Xbox, or my phone, or on Netflix. For the little I want to record, I'll keep using my Tivo box in doorstop mode, and stick an antenna on it. And cancel my cable TV service while I'm at it. 

It was great while it lasted. But I'm pretty much done.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

spectecjr said:


> In an era when I'd expect the monthly fee for the Tivo service to be dropping (after all, it's now more than a rented cable DVR box, and doesn't give me any services that my Xbox and WDTV Live box don't already do), all of a sudden, they're increasing the price?
> 
> I mean seriously?
> 
> ...


When I checked online it showed $14.95 a month for the new price. Comcast and FiOS here is a few dollars more. But once you add on the cable card, it brings the price to a point slighly below or slightly above what the Comcast and FiOS are charging. Of course teh TiVo is still many times betetr than what Comcast and FiOS offers in this area and certainly much more reliable at recording.

Either way $14.95 is a huge increase from the current $6.95 I'm paying for the one box I have on monthly.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

take care.


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## Tanner (May 28, 2003)

same here.
I'm done.

did you also see the lifetime price increase? LOL! $499!!! SUCKERS!


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Tanner said:


> same here.
> I'm done.
> 
> did you also see the lifetime price increase? LOL! $499!!! SUCKERS!


Don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out...


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> When I checked online it showed $14.95 a month for the new price. Comcast and FiOS here is a few dollars more. But once you add on the cable card, it brings the price to a point slighly below or slightly above what the Comcast and FiOS are charging. Of course teh TiVo is still many times betetr than what Comcast and FiOS offers in this area and certainly much more reliable at recording.
> 
> Either way $14.95 is a huge increase from the current $6.95 I'm paying for the one box I have on monthly.


The $14.95 is ridiculous, but I think it is designed to push you to lifetime. I think Tivo knows that lifetime subscribers don't have much churn. This moves the lifetime breakeven to about 27 months if you are making that decision.

The big unknown is what happens after that first year at $14.95 (MSD).


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

larrs said:


> The $14.95 is ridiculous, but I think it is designed to push you to lifetime. I think Tivo knows that lifetime subscribers don't have much churn. This moves the lifetime breakeven to about 27 months if you are making that decision.
> 
> The big unknown is what happens after that first year at $14.95 (MSD).


Ok, so, some finance info follows... but bare with me.

Existing subscribers adding another box pay 399.99 for lifetime, right? New ones pay 499.99. The hardware (lower end) is $99.

Actual break even, assuming interest rates of 6% (might be a bit high in the current economy, but historically that is pretty conservative) and a payment of 14.95 a month, is:

25 (and a tiny decimal) months for 399.99 or

For a new subscriber, at 499.99 and 20 dollars a month, it's:

23.6 (figure the .6 is irrelevant, so 27). So it's actually a faster break-even for a new subscriber.

So, assuming you want to keep your TiVo that long and assuming technology changes do not make the TiVo useless, the Lifetime is virtually always the better choice. 25 months is barely 2 years. The hardware itself should have lifetimes of well over 5 years (I've had 2 boxes, one lasted 9 the other is on year 5).

My cable company charges 16.99 for a DVR box. TiVo is going to charge me 14.99 + I pay 2.00 for a cable card = 16.99. So the net monthly payment is the same and I am just out the hardware costs of the TiVo ($99). Obv, if it's your first box, it's worse, at -3 dollars a month and -99 upfront.

But if I buy a lifetime on the TiVo and pay $6 a month worth of cable cards and fees (like I said, my price is $2 per card, but I've heard prices as high as $6), then after 42 months I have paid a total of 676 + hardware ($99 = 775sh) vs the cable company box I have paid 791.85 and every month thereafter is "profit." If your CC price is $2 like mine, that calculation comes down to closer to 32 months, or less than 3 years. *At less than 3 years the TiVo box with lifetime is literally saving me money over a Cable Company box.*

Your calculations may vary, of course.

And all of this depends on you being able to use the box for that time period.

TiVo is asking for more upfront dollars than your cable company, but they are offering a superior product for most of us. Your cable company box costs more in the long term but less in the short term. Your cable company box is "insured for life" whereas your TiVo box is only insured for 1 year.

I don't use my TiVo for media... I find the PS3 to be superior for Netflix and other media streaming options... but it's a superior DVR and I can cost justify it as such.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Tanner said:


> same here.
> I'm done.
> 
> did you also see the lifetime price increase? LOL! $499!!! SUCKERS!


Lifetime is now slightly cheaper with the box cost going down.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

larrs said:


> The $14.95 is ridiculous, but I think it is designed to push you to lifetime. I think Tivo knows that lifetime subscribers don't have much churn. This moves the lifetime breakeven to about 27 months if you are making that decision.
> 
> The big unknown is what happens after that first year at $14.95 (MSD).


I believe it says in the fine print it goes to month to month.

The cost of $14.95 with a $99 TiVo lowers the cost compared to a TiVo at $299 and $9.95. Only in the third year does the price exceed what it used to cost. The first two years are cheaper by around $80.

Now if TiVo can get new hardware options every 18 months to 2 years, this would make sense since you could update every two years.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> I believe it says in the fine print it goes to month to month.
> 
> The cost of $14.95 with a $99 TiVo lowers the cost compared to a TiVo at $299 and $9.95. Only in the third year does the price exceed what it used to cost. The first two years are cheaper by around $80.
> 
> Now if TiVo can get new hardware options every 18 months to 2 years, this would make sense since you could update every two years.


I guess I meant, how log will it last? I could see Tivo sending a message after the first year and offering lifetime for an additional $75 off and maybe another $50 off after three years and so on.

Again, lifetime users churn much less than non-lifetime. It took Tivo a long time to recognize it, but I think they got it now. After all, lifetime is not really lifetime with upgrades, failures, etc. figured in.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

The services industry makes the money and keeps in business not by offering lifetime service for a fee, but by having a amount coming in month after month on a regular basis. They get the one time fee, but if some people keep the box forever then the services company (Tivo included) is providing something with out getting anything. The only exception to this rule would be if someone has a lifetimed Tivo and then they have other monthly boxes that they pay for. Because they have a lifetime box they are more likely to keep their monthly boxes. Or that is my logic. When Tivo sells a lifetime box they are betting that box will fail and be trashed, or because they have such great reliability on their Tivos, that the person will move on to another DVR and throw the Tivo in the trash. 
I only have lifetimed boxes and haven't paid Tivo for any of them. They were all bought used. 

(On another note, I love Tivo but now I am playing 'fourth fiddle' to my 'significant others' cat, and best friend, and Tivo that I gave her years ago. She loves that Tivo and won't even let me replace it with a full lifetime box! (it only has tivo basic.) I will probably have to sneak over there and replace it when she isn't looking. I need to find a Toshiba full lifetimed box to replace it with so she won't notice any difference until I show her the other features )


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

replaytv said:


> The services industry makes the money and keeps in business not by offering lifetime service for a fee, but by having a amount coming in month after month on a regular basis. They get the one time fee, but if some people keep the box forever then the services company (Tivo included) is providing something with out getting anything. The only exception to this rule would be if someone has a lifetimed Tivo and then they have other monthly boxes that they pay for. Because they have a lifetime box they are more likely to keep their monthly boxes. Or that is my logic. When Tivo sells a lifetime box they are betting that box will fail and be trashed, or because they have such great reliability on their Tivos, that the person will move on to another DVR and throw the Tivo in the trash.
> I only have lifetimed boxes and haven't paid Tivo for any of them. They were all bought used.
> 
> (On another note, I love Tivo but now I am playing 'fourth fiddle' to my 'significant others' cat, and best friend, and Tivo that I gave her years ago. She loves that Tivo and won't even let me replace it with a full lifetime box! (it only has tivo basic.) I will probably have to sneak over there and replace it when she isn't looking. I need to find a Toshiba full lifetimed box to replace it with so she won't notice any difference until I show her the other features )


If your in line behind the cat, the friend, and the TiVo (sounds like a book or song title), maybe you should replace the SO?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

All they did was shave the price of the box and increase the subscription fees. Looks like a wash to me.


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## jtl63 (Aug 1, 2004)

I feel your pain. I currently have a lifetime and a $6.95 subscription and when I looked into upgrading the new prices are just too high. Right now our cable company is going all digital so I guess its time to try their DVR.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> All they did was shave the price of the box and increase the subscription fees. Looks like a wash to me.


Unless you're picking up a used unit, in which case it costs more to subscribe than before if I understand correctly.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

unitron said:


> Unless you're picking up a used unit, in which case it costs more to subscribe than before if I understand correctly.


At this point unless you are buying one with lifetime, buying used makes little sense.


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## jaredmwright (Sep 6, 2004)

Am I correct in my understanding that if you are on a month to month like I am for $6.95, buying used makes sense since you can swap your TSN and continue to leverage the reduced rate. Unless they removed this option, but last time I logged onto my account this week I could still swap the TSN for that unit.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

larrs said:


> Don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out...


....I hope the door smashes his a$$ on the way out....


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Grakthis said:


> ...bare with me....


What are we "baring"....everything?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Just curious, are the old rates "grandfathered" for current subscribers?
IOW, do people that have the $6.95 rate get to keep it?
What's going to happen if a subscriber attempts a 'change service number' on their account?


No dog in the fight for me (lifetime on all my Tivos), but I wonder what the impact will be.
If the $6.95 rate is disappearing, I could envision a mass exodus happening.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

innocentfreak said:


> At this point unless you are buying one with lifetime, buying used makes little sense.


+1 - the prices have effectively been jacked up for this situation because of the price-shifting from box to sub. Used to be you could get a great deal by snagging something off Craigslist or Ebay if someone listed it wrong or something, but now you'll never save more than a few bucks - and the used downsides are too big compared to the relative little you'll save.

I think saving some cash via Amazon or other sites that may run specials on new ones is your best bet now. Saving $50 by buying a used one vs. saving $50 on a new one isn't really a question... the only exception might be if you buy it from your buddy or some other "special" situation.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

Bierboy said:


> ....I hope the door smashes his a$$ on the way out....


Also have to note that this kind of thinking is disappointing and uncivil, to say the least... like it or not, us "niche enthusiasts" need some sorta-kinda-mainstream-ish users to keep Tivo doing the things we want and the business model anywhere near staying alive.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

spectecjr said:


> Well, Tivo... its been nice. But enough is enough. Subscription is cancelled as of June 8th. Everything else I can get on my computer, or my Xbox, or my phone, or on Netflix. For the little I want to record, I'll keep using my Tivo box in doorstop mode, and stick an antenna on it. And cancel my cable TV service while I'm at it.
> 
> It was great while it lasted. But I'm pretty much done.


Umm, since there aren't analog OTA signals anymore (except some VERY rare low power signals), I presume you mean you have a S3/TivoHD/Premiere..

If so, you won't be able to use it for "the little [you] want to record" without a subscription.. From what others have said, doorstop mode == live buffer + existing recorded programs. (No dumb manual programming, like S1s can do.)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

spectecjr said:


> In an era when I'd expect the monthly fee for the Tivo service to be dropping (after all, it's now more than a rented cable DVR box, and doesn't give me any services that my Xbox and WDTV Live box don't already do), all of a sudden, they're increasing the price?
> 
> I mean seriously?
> 
> ...


why would you leave because OTHER PEOPLE's pricing went up? What makes you think they are going to change your existing pricing?


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

jtl63 said:


> Right now our cable company is going all digital so I guess its time to try their DVR.


Going digital won't make their DVR's any better.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Resist said:


> Going digital won't make their DVR's any better.


No, but it sure will screw you out of being able to use an S1 or S2, and depending on how they do digital they may be able to figure out how to make your S3 or S4 unusable on their system as well.


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## LarryAtHome (Feb 18, 2008)

unitron said:


> No, but it sure will screw you out of being able to use an S1 or S2, and depending on how they do digital they may be able to figure out how to make your S3 or S4 unusable on their system as well.


My S2 works great. I use the S-Video and Left Right audio in. The ir blaster changes the channels fine.


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## jtl63 (Aug 1, 2004)

LarryAtHome said:


> My S2 works great. I use the S-Video and Left Right audio in. The ir blaster changes the channels fine.


I can no longer watch one station while using my DVR to record another. I'm not happy about switching but I'm priced out. TIVO is doing what they need to do with the prices and unfortunately I need to do the same.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

LarryAtHome said:


> My S2 works great. I use the S-Video and Left Right audio in. The ir blaster changes the channels fine.


How is that dual tuner working for ya and how does it look on your HD screen?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

jtl63 said:


> I can no longer watch one station while using my DVR to record another. I'm not happy about switching but I'm priced out. TIVO is doing what they need to do with the prices and unfortunately I need to do the same.


You might be able to get a free Digital Transport Adapter. Then you could split the cable and have two inputs to your TV. Then you could watch live TV through the DTA while the Tivo is recording from the cable box.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Thanks Tivo. You just increased the value of my S3 with lifetime that will undoubtedly end up on ebay sometime in the near future. Right now it's been retired for use as a HD tuner for my family room HDTV monitor. It's also another compelling reason to delve into the world of Media Center PCs. 

I get a huge chuckle every time I read one of these threads about Tivo pricing. My HTPC costs me exactly $3.99 per month for a single cablecard on top of the $40 or so I pay for FIOS HD Xtreme. Guide data and the ability to record any channel I pay for costs me absolutely nothing. I can stream to any PC in the house and copy shows to my PC, not to mention it can also perform just about every other feature that Tivo offers.

It's a shame, really. I used to love my Tivos and never thought I'd want to part with them. Competition has finally caught up with them and yet Tivo, Inc., continues to cut their own throats through pricing techniques that will surely alienate many of their most loyal customers. Only the true diehards that refuse to see the writing on the walls will continue to support a company that is doomed to extinction.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Thanks Tivo. You just increased the value of my S3 with lifetime that will undoubtedly end up on ebay sometime in the near future.


how do you figure? Lifetime TiVos dropped by $100. It looks like series 3 are still going for around $325 or so and HDs are going for around 380 or so depending on hard drive.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> how do you figure? Lifetime TiVos dropped by $100. It looks like series 3 are still going for around $325 or so and HDs are going for around 380 or so depending on hard drive.


The base price of the Tivo is pretty much irrelevant. We've always been able to get new or refurbished Tivos for about $100 when deals became available. Lifetime service just jumped from $399 to $499 and the monthly fees have become outrageous compared to what they used to be. My S3 with lifetime is going to look pretty sweet to some lucky buyer down the road. Of course, I'll never get out of it what I put into it since the S3's were much more expensive than either the HD or Premiere (originally $799, but I paid around $600 for mine). However, I expect the new lifetime cost will increase the value from what it would have sold for a month ago, even if only by just a few bucks.

One of the major beefs I've had with Tivo is that their resale value is next to nothing. I don't have any delusions about making money on my used Tivo. I sold another S3 a few months ago that had both an internal and an external hard drive upgrade. I only got about $110 for it. It did not have lifetime service. You can't blame people for wanting a new unit vs. a used one. Early adopters of new Tivo technologies have always been shafted in this area. Remember the $1000 price tag for the HR10-250's? I had two of them and, in the end, I couldn't give them away.

I'm just fed up with paying high monthly fees for a service and features I can get for free elsewhere. At least with an HTPC, if I decide to stop using it as a DVR I can still use it as a PC. With a Tivo, it's just another useless box taking up space. This is the one major difference between an HTPC and a Tivo when it comes to cost of ownership. With an HTPC, it has a decent resale value, depending on how old it is. With a Tivo, it's pretty much a zero return on investment, unless you have lifetime service attached to it. The newer models cost less so they have a lower resale value. The older ones cost more, but since newer units cost less, the value of the older models plummets to the point where it's hardly worth selling them. I've given away more Tivos to charity than I've ever sold simply because I get a better return with the tax write-off.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Thanks Tivo. You just increased the value of my S3 with lifetime that will undoubtedly end up on ebay sometime in the near future. Right now it's been retired for use as a HD tuner for my family room HDTV monitor. It's also another compelling reason to delve into the world of Media Center PCs.
> 
> I get a huge chuckle every time I read one of these threads about Tivo pricing. My HTPC costs me exactly $3.99 per month for a single cablecard on top of the $40 or so I pay for FIOS HD Xtreme. Guide data and the ability to record any channel I pay for costs me absolutely nothing. I can stream to any PC in the house and copy shows to my PC, not to mention it can also perform just about every other feature that Tivo offers.
> 
> It's a shame, really. I used to love my Tivos and never thought I'd want to part with them. Competition has finally caught up with them and yet Tivo, Inc., continues to cut their own throats through pricing techniques that will surely alienate many of their most loyal customers. Only the true diehards that refuse to see the writing on the walls will continue to support a company that is doomed to extinction.


Look, we've had this discussion several times over several threads and the Media Center PC is no competition for Tivo except for a small subset of Techies (like you and me) out there. Tivo's competition is the cable company's Sci-Atl or Motorola box (or FiOS) and those are basically crap when it comes to what the Tivo can (or should I say could?) do. I have had both an SA and a Motorola box and they were glorified VCRs with TVGuide Plus with a hard drive instead of a tape.

Again, if there was a true plug and play HTPC and an easier to use MCE out there, I agree they could quite possibly clean up in the marketplace. I looked HARD at going this route and I was convinced that my family would not approve. When/if your Mother can use it, it is viable. Until then, it is not.

I will agree that the cost factor for a Media Center PC is more compelling than ever, but the price of entry is still more than Tivo, IMHO.


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## uw69 (Jan 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Thanks Tivo. You just increased the value of my S3 with lifetime that will undoubtedly end up on ebay sometime in the near future. Right now it's been retired for use as a HD tuner for my family room HDTV monitor. It's also another compelling reason to delve into the world of Media Center PCs.
> 
> I get a huge chuckle every time I read one of these threads about Tivo pricing. My HTPC costs me exactly $3.99 per month for a single cablecard on top of the $40 or so I pay for FIOS HD Xtreme. Guide data and the ability to record any channel I pay for costs me absolutely nothing. I can stream to any PC in the house and copy shows to my PC, not to mention it can also perform just about every other feature that Tivo offers.
> 
> It's a shame, really. I used to love my Tivos and never thought I'd want to part with them. Competition has finally caught up with them and yet Tivo, Inc., continues to cut their own throats through pricing techniques that will surely alienate many of their most loyal customers. Only the true diehards that refuse to see the writing on the walls will continue to support a company that is doomed to extinction.


Exacactly the same as I feel. TiVo is on life support.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> The base price of the Tivo is pretty much irrelevant. We've always been able to get new or refurbished Tivos for about $100 when deals became available. Lifetime service just jumped from $399 to $499 and the monthly fees have become outrageous compared to what they used to be. My S3 with lifetime is going to look pretty sweet to some lucky buyer down the road. Of course, I'll never get out of it what I put into it since the S3's were much more expensive than either the HD or Premiere (originally $799, but I paid around $600 for mine). However, I expect the new lifetime cost will increase the value from what it would have sold for a month ago, even if only by just a few bucks.
> 
> One of the major beefs I've had with Tivo is that their resale value is next to nothing. I don't have any delusions about making money on my used Tivo. I sold another S3 a few months ago that had both an internal and an external hard drive upgrade. I only got about $110 for it. It did not have lifetime service. You can't blame people for wanting a new unit vs. a used one. Early adopters of new Tivo technologies have always been shafted in this area. Remember the $1000 price tag for the HR10-250's? I had two of them and, in the end, I couldn't give them away.


I still don't see it. The Premiere lifetime prices haven't increased on ebay, so I don't see older models especially ones that require 2 CableCARDS going up in price. Meanwhile HD and Series 3 lifetime prices have continued to fall.

Except lifetime TiVos do have resale value. Assuming you aren't selling older models like the series 2 and potentially the series 3 and you are either the current or last generation you can usually recoup at least the lifetime fee. It is all a matter of timing though.

It is called being an early adopter.


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## Speqtre (Dec 7, 2007)

I'm sure that some providers still have crappy DVRs, but the whole 'their DVRs suck' thing is getting to be less and less relevant. I'm on FIOS with 1.8, and their interface is working very well, plus with the newest series of Moto boxes the whole house sharing is working great. 1.9 will bring attached storage expansion, which is another big plus.

Oh, and when my rented hardware *****s the bed, I get a brand new one for free...

My HD with lifetime is on ebay now (talk about dated looking interfaces?)


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> One of the major beefs I've had with Tivo is that their resale value is next to nothing. I don't have any delusions about making money on my used Tivo. I sold another S3 a few months ago that had both an internal and an external hard drive upgrade. I only got about $110 for it. It did not have lifetime service.


You don't have a valid complaint. You were an early adopter. Early adopters pay through the nose. That's a given for most technology products.

When the prices drop on the tuner cards you'll have a similar beef about HTPCs.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

steve614 said:


> Just curious, are the old rates "grandfathered" for current subscribers?
> IOW, do people that have the $6.95 rate get to keep it?
> What's going to happen if a subscriber attempts a 'change service number' on their account?
> 
> ...


Every time there has been a price increase in the past, my $6.95 has stayed put. And, if they were to increase it, they would need to communicate it to you in some way ahead of time.

I am confident those that have a certain pricing will get to keep whatever they have.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

larrs said:


> Look, we've had this discussion several times over several threads and the Media Center PC is no competition for Tivo except for a small subset of Techies (like you and me) out there. Tivo's competition is the cable company's Sci-Atl or Motorola box (or FiOS) and those are basically crap when it comes to what the Tivo can (or should I say could?) do. I have had both an SA and a Motorola box and they were glorified VCRs with TVGuide Plus with a hard drive instead of a tape.
> 
> Again, if there was a true plug and play HTPC and an easier to use MCE out there, I agree they could quite possibly clean up in the marketplace. I looked HARD at going this route and I was convinced that my family would not approve. When/if your Mother can use it, it is viable. Until then, it is not.
> 
> I will agree that the cost factor for a Media Center PC is more compelling than ever, but the price of entry is still more than Tivo, IMHO.


You do make valid arguments with regards to the cableco DVRs. Compared to a Tivo they generally suck. My biggest complaint with them is that they all lack what I would consider the bare minimum of recording space for HD programming. With hard drive prices getting lower all the time there's no reason for a DVR to have less than a 500GB drive or even 1TB as a minimum.

An HTPC is definitely not for everyone. I basically have an HTPC for my personal use and a couple of set-top boxes and a Tivo for the rest of the household. I've given up on extenders mainly because they rely solely on the operation of the main HTPC. If a problem occurs on the PC, it affects everyone else. I can deal with it, but I just got tired of hearing everyone else in the family gripe about it. Minor annoyances aside, as I do indeed consider them to be minor, my HTPC has more features and is more convenient for me than any Tivo I've ever owned. Every conceivable feature that I want to use in my Home Theater setup is available using a single device. Tivo never came even remotely close to providing the same level of performance or convenience. Then again, it all depends on how you use your Tivo.



innocentfreak said:


> I still don't see it. The Premiere lifetime prices haven't increased on ebay, so I don't see older models especially ones that require 2 CableCARDS going up in price. Meanwhile HD and Series 3 lifetime prices have continued to fall.
> 
> Except lifetime TiVos do have resale value. Assuming you aren't selling older models like the series 2 and potentially the series 3 and you are either the current or last generation you can usually recoup at least the lifetime fee. It is all a matter of timing though.
> 
> It is called being an early adopter.


You and I have rarely seen eye-to-eye on this topic so I wouldn't expect you to do so now. Resale values of all Tivos suck, even those with lifetime. While you may come close to recovering the cost of the lifetime fee, you're basically giving the Tivo away for free or next to nothing. With the recent hike in lifetime fees I would anticipate that any HD Tivo with lifetime service attached will result in a higher demand for these units and therefore bolster the resale value. I only paid $299 for lifetime on my S3 so it's not unreasonable to expect a return of anywhere from $400-500 or even more for the unit with upgraded storage.



shwru980r said:


> You don't have a valid complaint. You were an early adopter. Early adopters pay through the nose. That's a given for most technology products.
> 
> When the prices drop on the tuner cards you'll have a similar beef about HTPCs.


Thanks for once again stating the obvious about being an early adopter. Cablecard tuners have always been in high demand. The original ATi tuners were selling for top dollar until just recently when Verizon made a change that basically made them useless on their system. However, they are still in demand to a certain extent. The cost of using multiple ATi tuners that each require a cablecard vs. a multi-tuner unit like the Ceton or HDHR Prime has certainly made them less attractive. The Ceton InfiniTV4 has only just recently caught up with demand so it's no longer backordered from any vendor. The SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime begins shipping at the end of June.

Cablecard tuners are the one PC product that I don't expect to see lose value over the long haul. I'm not delusional enough to believe that I'll be able to recoup my original purchase price of $399 for the Ceton card, but I bet I could sell it for pretty close to that considering they are not likely to be discounted until after the SD tuner hits the market. Even then I would think the Ceton would only drop to about $85 per tuner as opposed to the current $100 ratio so it would be competitive with the SD tuner. I'll bet if I listed it for $350 on ebay it would get snatched up in a heartbeat.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Minor annoyances aside, as I do indeed consider them to be minor, my HTPC has more features and is more convenient for me than any Tivo I've ever owned. Every conceivable feature that I want to use in my Home Theater setup is available using a single device. Tivo never came even remotely close to providing the same level of performance or convenience. Then again, it all depends on how you use your Tivo.
> 
> You and I have rarely seen eye-to-eye on this topic so I wouldn't expect you to do so now. Resale values of all Tivos suck, even those with lifetime. While you may come close to recovering the cost of the lifetime fee, you're basically giving the Tivo away for free or next to nothing. With the recent hike in lifetime fees I would anticipate that any HD Tivo with lifetime service attached will result in a higher demand for these units and therefore bolster the resale value. I only paid $299 for lifetime on my S3 so it's not unreasonable to expect a return of anywhere from $400-500 or even more for the unit with upgraded storage.


I definitely agree here. My HTPC became a secondary gaming PC because I didn't find any additional use for it that my TiVos couldn't do other than recording 4 channels rather than 2.

I guess this is because my results have been different than yours. I don't know how selling a product for 80-85% of its value after a year or so of use is bad resale. What type of numbers do you expect?

You probably could have gotten that when the TiVo HD came out. You are now two generations behind. While this may not be the absolute truth based off the internals, most people I know view it this way since they count the series 3 separately from the TiVo HD. I know when I have helped shop for friends prior to the Premiere we only looked into HDs and not the series 3 because they were the "old model."


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I may be two generations behind on Tivo models, but that's because I saw nothing in the newer models that would have enticed me to switch from my S3's. I still wouldn't trade my S3 for a new Premiere. I've been using my original S3 for about four and a half years so I've probably gotten my money's worth out of it. Still, I would like to think it's still worth something to someone as it's been a solid performer for me.

The general rule of thumb for resale value of the vast majority of consumer A/V products is that they're usually worth about 50% of the original retail cost. Of course, with the rapid changes in technology over the past decade or so, this is no longer the case. Many devices simply become outdated and no longer have the same desirability or capabilities of current products and therefore do not demand the same resale value. A/V connection interfaces and HD video disc formats have played a huge role in this recent change, and even newer technologies are being introduced all the time, like 3DTV.

High end audio separates definitely follow in the old school resale logic in that they rarely lose more than 50% of their value. In fact, many older audio products actually gain value over time. OTOH, Tivos tend to lose value drastically by comparison. Ebay is littered with old Tivos that nobody wants. You can barely recoup the cost of the hard drive in a used DirecTivo. Tivos have gotten to where they're basically throwaway items. Once you cancel your service contract they're useless and almost worthless, unless you have lifetime service attached. With Premieres now selling for $99 you might as well just scavenge the hard drive and recycle the box for scrap metal.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

And TiVo meets and passes that rule of thumb. You can sell a TiVo HD and TiVo Premiere with lifetime for more than 50% of what you originally paid. Looking at completed listings you can sell TiVo HDs without service for $50 which is 50% of what the TiVo HD was selling for after the launch of the Premiere. The TiVo HD was selling for $99 after the launch of the Premiere. 

The TiVo HD came out in 2007 and the series 3 in 2006. It looks like you can get anywhere from $50-$80 for a product that is 5 years old. I wonder if you could get that much for a 1st generation Ipod since they are about the same age?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> ... Ebay is littered with old Tivos that nobody wants. You can barely recoup the cost of the hard drive in a used DirecTivo. Tivos have gotten to where they're basically throwaway items. Once you cancel your service contract they're useless and almost worthless, unless you have lifetime service attached. With Premieres now selling for $99 you might as well just scavenge the hard drive and recycle the box for scrap metal.


Older Series 1 & 2 units are out dated and have become devalued due to change from analog & SD to Digital & HD. Same situation for Direct TV TiVos.

However I am not certain HD TiVos are throwaway items. Without lifetime service maybe, but units with lifetime should retain value until the next tech change (cable cards to something else). If your Series 3 units have lifetime they are still worth $300+/- which is more than half the upgrade costs to a Premiere.

I purchased my TiVos with the assumption that they would be used until dead and have no value at that point. I did retire my Series 2 TiVos before they died but felt I had gotten good value. Both my TiVo HD and Premiere have lifetime and will be used for OTA until dead.

The Series 3 is on a $6.95/mo deal and really needs to be retired (been unplugged for 3 months) as I don't need 3 units now that I have upgrade the units with lifetime with 2TB drives. So yes I will loose some money on the Series 3, I only used it for about 1 year and it cost me over $400 for the refurbed unit, 1TB external drive and monthly service. All and all it was a bad deal for me should have just upgraded to a Premiere earlier than I did, would have cost me less over all.

Thanks,


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## kathpdx (May 27, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Thanks Tivo. You just increased the value of my S3 with lifetime that will undoubtedly end up on ebay sometime in the near future. Right now it's been retired for use as a HD tuner for my family room HDTV monitor. It's also another compelling reason to delve into the world of Media Center PCs.
> 
> I get a huge chuckle every time I read one of these threads about Tivo pricing. My HTPC costs me exactly $3.99 per month for a single cablecard on top of the $40 or so I pay for FIOS HD Xtreme. Guide data and the ability to record any channel I pay for costs me absolutely nothing. I can stream to any PC in the house and copy shows to my PC, not to mention it can also perform just about every other feature that Tivo offers.
> 
> It's a shame, really. I used to love my Tivos and never thought I'd want to part with them. Competition has finally caught up with them and yet Tivo, Inc., continues to cut their own throats through pricing techniques that will surely alienate many of their most loyal customers. Only the true diehards that refuse to see the writing on the walls will continue to support a company that is doomed to extinction.


Do you have any suggestions for someone VERY INTERESTED in finding out my alternatives to TiVo.. I am so disgusted by their alienating ways... But I need to educate myself as to what is possible / OR ideally kind of "best practices". I am a Mac household if that matters.

If you have links to "how to" sites, that would be great.

Thanks!


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

kathpdx said:


> Do you have any suggestions for someone VERY INTERESTED in finding out my alternatives to TiVo.. I am so disgusted by their alienating ways... But I need to educate myself as to what is possible / OR ideally kind of "best practices". I am a Mac household if that matters.
> 
> If you have links to "how to" sites, that would be great.
> 
> Thanks!


It does if you want cablecard/encrypted channels. CC is only certified for Windows 7. If you are on something like FiOS where everything is copy freely, you can use something like Sage.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

kathpdx said:


> Do you have any suggestions for someone VERY INTERESTED in finding out my alternatives to TiVo.. I am so disgusted by their alienating ways... But I need to educate myself as to what is possible / OR ideally kind of "best practices". I am a Mac household if that matters.
> 
> If you have links to "how to" sites, that would be great.
> 
> Thanks!


Assuming you are cable/FIOS (not Satellite or AT&T Uverse) You have 3 alternatives. You can go with your providers DVR, a Moxi, or you can go with an HTPC. The Moxi or an HTPC with cable cards are not going to be cheaper than a TiVo with lifetime but might better suite your needs.

If you are OTA you also have another option it is a channel master DVR which is closer to a VCR than a TiVo, but it does cost less than a TiVo with lifetime

Good Luck,


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## LarryAtHome (Feb 18, 2008)

zalusky said:


> How is that dual tuner working for ya and how does it look on your HD screen?


Works the same as it did from day one. Never had more than one tuner in the model sold in Canada, (only one model was ever officially sold and supported here) just one tuner and a S-Video/line in. Have always had it connected to a satellite box, using only the S-Video/line in.
Now, our cable here does have digital, but is going to mostly digital latter this year. They are reducing the number of analoge channels, but still will have a selection. So RF in and Line in would still work. For a simular setup to a dual tuner, one could put a digital box on one tivo input and a second digital box on the TV. Now yes, this is not the same as two tuners being controlled by the TiVo. That old VCR will have the same problem too.
I'm actually quite happy with a good SD picture. I'm more dissappointed in having more channels, but getting fewer programs to choose from. Too many channels playing the same shows. When watching a movie with a good SD picture, if it is a great movie, I'm watching and following the story. On a large HD TV picture quality would be a lot more noticable, but if one upgraded to a large HD tv, should not one also upgrade their TiVo to a HD model. It would be like using a standard DVD player and not a Bluray player to watch your discs.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

kathpdx said:


> Do you have any suggestions for someone VERY INTERESTED in finding out my alternatives to TiVo.. I am so disgusted by their alienating ways... But I need to educate myself as to what is possible / OR ideally kind of "best practices". I am a Mac household if that matters.
> 
> If you have links to "how to" sites, that would be great.
> 
> Thanks!


Lots of alternatives to a Tivo, as several have already mentioned. If you want encrypted cable/FIOS channels then your only option for tuning them directly is a cablecard tuner, such as the Ceton InfiniTV4 (4 tuners @ $399) or the soon to be released SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime (3 tuners @ $250 or a 6-tuner version @ $500), and Windows 7 Media Center. If you don't mind renting a HD cableco box that has component outputs you could also consider using the Hauppauge HD-PVR which takes the component analog outputs from your cable box and sends them to your HTPC via USB cable. It works with Windows Media Center as well as many other DVR apps. If you want to record more than one channel you'll need a separate cable box and HD-PVR for each tuner. It uses an IR repeater to change channels on the cable box.

If you want OTA or clear QAM, there are numerous options available, such as MythTV (Linux-based), GBPVR, SageTV (also works with the cablecard tuners with the SageDCT add-on, but it only works with copy freely content), and quite a few others. Here's a link to a beginner's guide listing the various software choices available:

http://www.missingremote.com/guide/beginners-guide-htpc-software

Unfortunately, there are very few choices available for the MAC OS. They do make the AppleTV unit so you might want to look into that if you're stuck on MACs. Here are a few sites with lots of good info:

http://www.missingremote.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=198

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=26

http://www.hack7mc.com/

http://experts.windows.com/f/

http://www.hdtvtunerinfo.com/index.html

There are lots of other links I could provide but this should be more than enough to get you started. Both the AVSForums Home Theater PC section and The Missing Remote have lots of great guides for setting up and configuring a HTPC.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

FYI - the six tuner version of the SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime is now available for pre-order on Newegg.com for $499.99 with a shipping date of 6/18/11.

http://http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815345009&cm_re=silicondust-_-15-345-009-_-Product


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I think the new pricing is a mistake and won't last or we will see special offers soon. As far as all of the complaints regarding TiVo service, I just don't agree. A Media Center PC is such a clunky solution for me, I want nothing to do with it. I can't imagine TiVo will see an increase in profits with the pricing change and will be forced to fix it to something that will increase profits.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Lots of alternatives to a Tivo, as several have already mentioned. If you want encrypted cable/FIOS channels then your only option for tuning them directly is a cablecard tuner, such as the Ceton InfiniTV4 (4 tuners @ $399) or the soon to be released SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime (3 tuners @ $250 or a 6-tuner version @ $500), and Windows 7 Media Center. If you don't mind renting a HD cableco box that has component outputs you could also consider using the Hauppauge HD-PVR which takes the component analog outputs from your cable box and sends them to your HTPC via USB cable. It works with Windows Media Center as well as many other DVR apps. If you want to record more than one channel you'll need a separate cable box and HD-PVR for each tuner. It uses an IR repeater to change channels on the cable box.
> 
> If you want OTA or clear QAM, there are numerous options available, such as MythTV (Linux-based), GBPVR, SageTV (also works with the cablecard tuners with the SageDCT add-on, but it only works with copy freely content), and quite a few others. Here's a link to a beginner's guide listing the various software choices available:
> 
> ...


I'll add one thing here. I really liked SageTV and the Sage Theater Extenders- which play literally every codec known to man (a major weakness of the Tivos IMHO). The only thing that kept me from jumping was probably the Windows Media Center/Ceton/CCI byte issue, but since my CableCo marks everything except pay channels as copy freely and Sage apparently works with the Ceton in that case, I may give it another look.

I would likely run a 4 tuner Ceton and another OTA/QAM usb card with 4 tuners. With 6 total TVs, I could possibly need all those tuners. We record over 50% of out Tivo stuff from the locals anyway. Still not anywhere near plug and play, but based on what I see/hear about the Sage Extenders, I actually think my family could handle it. And, if I were to go to SageTV, I would not have to upgrade my HTPC from Vista (extra cost).


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

mahermusic said:


> Nope, no it won't.
> 
> I've got a Series 1 from 2001 w/Lifetime
> 
> ...


Are you paying one monthly fee to run one cable into your house and once inside you can install all the splitters and inline boosters and things with tuners you want to, or do you pay per outlet?


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

Wow, with the new pricing, I'll actually *save* a little money on activating a tivo premier.

Bought a $49.99 goldbox Premier from Amazon the other day. I can get $399 lifetime on it MSD price.

Before it would have been $468 ($268 hardware + $199 lifetime).

Do you pay tax on a lifetime sub cost? I can't remember.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

blacknoi said:


> Do you pay tax on a lifetime sub cost? I can't remember.


Yeah, the discounts you can get on a Premiere now roughly are the best discounts/savings available, since the pricing has been somewhat standardized. I do think that in the long run this will be easier to understand, especially as special offers come out eventually.

Anyway, your question: I did not pay tax on my lifetime sub costs; this is in Ohio. Other states YMMV, and I think it may even vary with county/city, especially in urban areas. No real way to find out but to do it and get it set up. I do know Cali and New York have charges, and I think someone mentioned CT charging 1% on lifetime - there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to the various taxing logistics, and errors HAVE occurred in the past. That said, it's a small enough sum that you almost just have to bite the bullet and get it done for the Lifetime to go through.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

larrs said:


> I'll add one thing here. I really liked SageTV and the Sage Theater Extenders- which play literally every codec known to man (a major weakness of the Tivos IMHO). The only thing that kept me from jumping was probably the Windows Media Center/Ceton/CCI byte issue, but since my CableCo marks everything except pay channels as copy freely and Sage apparently works with the Ceton in that case, I may give it another look.
> 
> I would likely run a 4 tuner Ceton and another OTA/QAM usb card with 4 tuners. With 6 total TVs, I could possibly need all those tuners. We record over 50% of out Tivo stuff from the locals anyway. Still not anywhere near plug and play, but based on what I see/hear about the Sage Extenders, I actually think my family could handle it. And, if I were to go to SageTV, I would not have to upgrade my HTPC from Vista (extra cost).


I've heard many good things about the Sage 300 extenders. I gave SageTV a brief look but didn't really have the time to get it set up properly before the trial period ran out so I never followed through with it. I couldn't get the OTA channels to show up in the guide along with the FIOS lineup. No doubt I was probably overlooking some simple step to get it working.

Your proposed setup is basically what I currently have. I've got an InfiniTV4 and two Hauppauge HVR-2250 dual ATSC tuners. I've also got a SD HDHomeRun Prime (3-tuner version) on pre-order with Newegg. I'm hoping I can convert the rest of the TVs in the house from cable boxes and a Tivo to standalone HTPCs that can each use one of the HDHR tuners.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

spectecjr said:


> It's guide data.


Guide data is a small portion of the TiVo service fee.
The majority of the ordinary TiVo service fee is was a license to use the TiVo software. Now, the fee also includes box lease fees, because you are not buying the box outright anymore.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> I've heard many good things about the Sage 300 extenders. I gave SageTV a brief look but didn't really have the time to get it set up properly before the trial period ran out so I never followed through with it. I couldn't get the OTA channels to show up in the guide along with the FIOS lineup. No doubt I was probably overlooking some simple step to get it working.
> 
> Your proposed setup is basically what I currently have. I've got an InfiniTV4 and two Hauppauge HVR-2250 dual ATSC tuners. I've also got a SD HDHomeRun Prime (3-tuner version) on pre-order with Newegg. I'm hoping I can convert the rest of the TVs in the house from cable boxes and a Tivo to standalone HTPCs that can each use one of the HDHR tuners.


That would be another possibility- PCs at every TV is likely the future.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

larrs said:


> That would be another possibility- PCs at every TV is likely the future.


Serious? My 2 cents is thats a fat chance. There's no need. Every TV or bluray will be app ready soon enough. Why have the complexity of a PC everywhere?


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## KCcardsfan (Feb 20, 2011)

MichaelK said:


> Serious? My 2 cents is thats a fat chance. There's no need. Every TV or bluray will be app ready soon enough. Why have the complexity of a PC everywhere?


Yea TV content providers are trying to draw a line in the sand and distinguish between the two PC/web connected device. They are eventually going to lose but in the short term we have to live with there is more content available to a PC connected to a TV then a web connected TV thanks to the providers.


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## treat2day (Mar 27, 2010)

I am up for renewal. 

I love my PremiereXL on a upgrade since release date.

TiVo offered my a $100 off for lifetime = $299

I went for it.

Call it locking the price in.

EVERTHING INCREASES EVENTUALLY.

Anyone jumping ship on TiVo will need to adjust to something generic.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> Serious? My 2 cents is thats a fat chance. There's no need. Every TV or bluray will be app ready soon enough. Why have the complexity of a PC everywhere?


Yes, I am serious. It may take time, but app based appliances won't cut it eventually. That gives the hardware maker too much control. When you can get any service you are willing to pay for rather than what Panasonic, Apple, etc. want you to get from their "store" people will be satisfied. That may not be a Windows device, but it will be something more open source than a Blu Ray player.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

larrs said:


> Yes, I am serious. It may take time, but app based appliances won't cut it eventually. That gives the hardware maker too much control. When you can get any service you are willing to pay for rather than what Panasonic, Apple, etc. want you to get from their "store" people will be satisfied. That may not be a Windows device, but it will be something more open source than a Blu Ray player.


Agreed it COULD possibly be some generic hardware box at each tv- but i dont think it's going to be a windows or mac or even linux "PC"- maybe something like boxee or roku, but i just dont see some complex "PC"- something more like a consumer electronic product.

Could just be splitting hairs I guess but a pc just seems not mainstream.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> Agreed it COULD possibly be some generic hardware box at each tv- but i dont think it's going to be a windows or mac or even linux "PC"- maybe something like boxee or roku, but i just dont see some complex "PC"- something more like a consumer electronic product.
> 
> Could just be splitting hairs I guess but a pc just seems not mainstream.


Why not? People use PCs for all sorts of everyday tasks and lots of people are already using them for streaming video from various online sources. Having one next to your TV that allows you to do all that plus the added advantage of recording your favorite shows just seems like a natural progression. Most people simply don't realize they have the ability to do this with their existing PCs. I'd be willing to be that the vast majority of Windows 7 and Vista users aren't even aware what Windows Media Center does or that they have it included in the OS. Microsoft has completely dropped the ball on informing the public about their software.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Why not? People use PCs for all sorts of everyday tasks and lots of people are already using them for streaming video from various online sources. Having one next to your TV that allows you to do all that plus the added advantage of recording your favorite shows just seems like a natural progression. Most people simply don't realize they have the ability to do this with their existing PCs. I'd be willing to be that the vast majority of Windows 7 and Vista users aren't even aware what Windows Media Center does or that they have it included in the OS. Microsoft has completely dropped the ball on informing the public about their software.


cause it's a pita- 

I built an HTPC. It's sitting in my basement while i have a googletv and tivo box connected to my tv that my family actually uses.

it's just not user friendly enough for my family. (the googletv is borderline for the wife and kids actually to be honest).

The usability/integration/simplicity has to get improved to be usable for the masses. And maybe windows 7 does that and so the universal box will be wintel or mac based. But it's just not 'plug and play' at a cheap price range like tivo/googletv/boxee/roku/etc are today.

hec I'm not even sure wintel will be dominant in 3 years never mind the platform for a tv. Who knows what google and/or ARM do to everything. Will chromebooks, or tablets take over the world? Will smartphone docks be what most of us use? Will google or someone else come out with yet another OS/hardware combo that knocks everyone's socks off? So if PC's aren't making huge inroads today- who knows what they will be doing in a few years.


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## randy1649 (Apr 18, 2011)

I feel the way to go is a tivo, cablecard and the $19 a month tivo service fee. If you do cable, cable is going to charge at least $19 for their crappy dvr (when u figure in all the hidden fees & taxes). And botton line, the cable dvr is junk. All of them. I know... I tried the motorola's, Pace units and multi-room service. Never worked as advertised. NEVER!
WHereas sharing recordings between tivo's works! And for the $19 tivo fee, you get a lot of add-ons like netflix, amazon and now hulu intergration. 
Or... you can pay cable for their dvr and get none of the featues above.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

randy1649 said:


> I feel the way to go is a tivo, cablecard and the $19 a month tivo service fee. If you do cable, cable is going to charge at least $19 for their crappy dvr (when u figure in all the hidden fees & taxes). And botton line, the cable dvr is junk. All of them. I know... I tried the motorola's, Pace units and multi-room service. Never worked as advertised. NEVER!
> WHereas sharing recordings between tivo's works! And for the $19 tivo fee, you get a lot of add-ons like netflix, amazon and now hulu intergration.
> Or... you can pay cable for their dvr and get none of the featues above.


Add-ons like Netflix, Amazon and Hulu are available on Blu-Ray players.

Cable co DVRs will stream CCI flagged programs. Tivo won't.

You have to add the cable card rental fee to the tivo service fee.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lew said:


> Add-ons like Netflix, Amazon and Hulu are available on Blu-Ray players.
> 
> Cable co DVRs will stream CCI flagged programs. Tivo won't.
> 
> You have to add the cable card rental fee to the tivo service fee.


They're also available on any PC. A Media Center PC with extenders will also stream flagged content to any room in the house. If you have a CableCARD tuner, like the Ceton InfiniTV4 or the SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime, you will also have a CableCARD fee, but it's usually less than an HD set-top box and you'll have multiple tuners (more than a single dual-tuner Tivo).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> FYI - the six tuner version of the SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime is now available for pre-order on Newegg.com for $499.99 with a shipping date of 6/18/11.


Your original link doesn't work.. Though I believe this is the same product talked about on the Engadget HD podcast..

It is essentially 2 3-tuner devices put together in a single case.. So it requires two cable inputs and cable cards...?!? (at least whatever product was being talked about on Engadget HD does..) That makes it much less impressive IMHO.. (If it were *internally* two 3-tuner devices glued together, fine.. but deal with the single cablecard & coax input..)


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mattack said:


> Your original link doesn't work.. Though I believe this is the same product talked about on the Engadget HD podcast..
> 
> It is essentially 2 3-tuner devices put together in a single case.. So it requires two cable inputs and cable cards...?!? (at least whatever product was being talked about on Engadget HD does..) That makes it much less impressive IMHO.. (If it were *internally* two 3-tuner devices glued together, fine.. but deal with the single cablecard & coax input..)


Yeah it is. It saves them on certification costs.

It does come in a nice case. I do agree though that I would be more interested in 6 tuners on one card.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Here's the link to the 6-tuner version of the SiliconDust HD HomeRun Prime:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815345009&cm_re=silicon_dust-_-15-345-009-_-Product

And here's the 3-tuner model:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815345006&cm_re=silicon_dust-_-15-345-006-_-Product

The upcoming Ceton InfiniTV6 only requires a single CableCARD for six tuners. I have found that the CableCARD in my InfiniTV4 tends to lock up occasionally if I'm using extenders with Windows Media Center, requiring a reboot of the WMC PC to clear it up. If you're using extenders then limiting your CableCARD usage to only three tuners apiece may provide you with a more stable setup. If you're only using the tuners with the HTPC then the Ceton 6-tuner model should work fine. I don't know if the CableCARD lockup is a widespread issue but I do recall seeing more than a few posts about it at The Green Button forums.


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## Chas94539 (Jun 3, 2011)

I feel very lucky. A friend of mine upgraded to HD and gave me his old TIVO series 2 with a lifetime subscription. Unfortunately, after having it for about 9 months, the hard disk died. I'm in the process of trying to get a disk image to install on a new hard disk. So, even though the price increase for the guide won't affect me, I still have to shell out a few coins to get unit back into working condition.


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## turbobuick86 (May 3, 2002)

If I left TiVo, my wife might leave me. There is no way my wife or family could run media centers. On any given night our Tivos are recording and being watched in different rooms. 

I'm thrilled with TiVo. There is no better DVR period.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The UI on a Media Center PC is no more difficult to use than any other DVR. If you set it up with a Media Center remote and IR receiver it operates just like any other consumer electronic device with a remote. If it weren't for the fact that it's a PC, you'd think you were using a 3rd party DVR. There's absolutely no reason why anyone that can use a Tivo couldn't use a Media Center PC.

The only issues with using a Media Center PC is that you may sometimes run into issues where a program crashes or other basic PC glitch that may require a program restart or reboot of the PC. I'm guessing your wife and kids could probably figure out how to work around those issues to get up and running again if and when such things might occur.

OTOH, if your spouse is anything like mine then stick with your Tivo. My wife has less than zero patience if things don't work the way she wants when she wants it. I was more than a bit hesitant to replace her cable box with a Tivo because I thought it would be non-stop griping about having to learn how to use a new device. Fortunately, she has no interest in the Tivo other than using it as a TV tuner. She did get more than a bit miffed when all she could get was the emergency alert banner on the Tivo a couple of weeks ago when some heavy storms were moving through the area.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> ...OTOH, if your spouse is anything like mine then stick with your Tivo...


+1

My wife uses the Tivo and has become quite the power user. Anything else would likely kill me no matter how much better it was. My two daughters are the same.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

lew said:


> Add-ons like Netflix, Amazon and Hulu are available on Blu-Ray players.


On everything, game systems, BRP, the TV itself even H/T recievers have internet connectivity. As for streaming content. TiVo is nothing special.. but IMO still the best DVR out there!


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Chas94539 said:


> I feel very lucky. A friend of mine upgraded to HD and gave me his old TIVO series 2 with a lifetime subscription. Unfortunately, after having it for about 9 months, the hard disk died. I'm in the process of trying to get a disk image to install on a new hard disk. So, even though the price increase for the guide won't affect me, I still have to shell out a few coins to get unit back into working condition.


What model number?


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Tanner said:


> same here.
> I'm done.
> 
> did you also see the lifetime price increase? LOL! $499!!! SUCKERS!


$499 is not for current subscribers. My Lifetime + Premiere cost my around $700 a box, which is pretty on par with the $399 for lifetime for current users

Trust me, OP, I've considered many other options, but there's nothing as good interface and price-wise as Tivo for cablecard TV. So, I don't know what you plan on doing, but Comcast charges about $12-13 a month at least, which is the same as Tivo.


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