# How Chromecast Could Jumpstart TiVos Retail Ambitions



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-07/how-chromecast-could-jumpstart-tivos-retail-ambitions/


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I love how Dave always opens these windows for conversation. I do like this idea - an app on TiVo that would catch Chromecast streams.

It really opens the opportunity to be part of a growing ecosystem instead of a completely closed environment.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Back in the day, there was an app on Tivo that could capture a single screenshot of your PC and display it on screen. It was one of those HME things I think. Tivo should have come up with ChromeCast years ago. It's a shame.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

aadam101 said:


> Back in the day, there was an app on Tivo that could capture a single screenshot of your PC and display it on screen. It was one of those HME things I think. Tivo should have come up with ChromeCast years ago. It's a shame.


This type of technology has only recently become possible with 802.11n networks, H.264 encoding and PCs fast enough to capture and reencode video on the fly. Plus TiVo hasn't really been on the cutting edge of technology in quite some time. Back in the old days they were innovators, but these days they're mostly just trying to catch up. With the only recent exception perhaps being the TiVo Stream. But even that is limited to iOS only and does not support channels with H.264 encoding, so it's sort of falling behind too.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

bradleys said:


> I do like this idea - an app on TiVo that would catch Chromecast streams.


 From my understanding it's not streams from the Chromecast device you send to TiVo, but it's using the DIAL protocol so that for example YouTube videos you find on your mobile device can be sent over to TiVo via DIAL. i.e. Chromecast is just a cheap client device which supports DIAL, and TiVo series 5 will be another such client. Seems to me, though this doesn't have to be restricted to series 5 units as series 4 units could do it too, however the Flash app performance is so terrible on series 4 units that TiVo may not bother with it for those. Makes sense for Mini to support it as Flash apps on the Mini run fairly well.
(But I probably misunderstood your post).


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> and TiVo series 5 will be another such client. Makes sense for Mini to support it as Flash apps on the Mini run fairly well.
> (But I probably misunderstood your post).


I hope TiVo really does support this. You seem pretty confident. :up:


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

sbiller said:


> I hope TiVo really does support this. You seem pretty confident. :up:


 I'm just going by Dave's post. I have no idea if TiVo will support it and didn't even know about DIAL until I saw Dave's article via your link. As Dave mentioned the "TiVo Developer channel" was DOA so perhaps something like this will renew interest in developing client apps that run on TiVo.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> I'm just going by Dave's post. I have no idea if TiVo will support it and didn't even know about DIAL until I saw Dave's article via your link. As Dave mentioned the "TiVo Developer channel" was DOA so perhaps something like this will renew interest in developing client apps that run on TiVo.


Same here. DIAL is completely new to me as well.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm hoping the new platform with faster hardware will breath new life into the TiVo developer channel. If they add HBO and VUDU I'd never have to leave the TiVo UI. (right now I use my Samsung smart TV for most apps)


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

I think you guys are looking at the protocol, DIAL and Chromecast backwards.

The TiVo would run DIAL compatible apps and direct streams to the Chromecast device just like you will do with your pda or computer. It just launches the stream on the chromecast device which is plugged in to your tv.

For TiVo to capture or otherwise integrate the stream would require an HDMI input and intercept of the DRM encoded stream...not gonna happen on TiVo.

So the TiVo would allow you to browse and select a stream and then you would switch HDMI ports on the tv (because TiVo is plugged in to one of them) and watch the stream. I don't see it as the TiVo controls and the interface needing to swap inputs would be very kludgey at best.

Chromecast is a streaming device that uses a chrome browser on android or pc to provide the interface. There seems to be a lot of confusion on the net as to what Chromecast is.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

jcthorne said:


> I think you guys are looking at the protocol, DIAL and Chromecast backwards.
> 
> The TiVo would run DIAL compatible apps and direct streams to the Chromecast device just like you will do with your pda or computer. It just launches the stream on the chromecast device which is plugged in to your tv.
> 
> ...


Completely disagree. TiVo would work the same way as the Chromecast dongle. If a TiVo owner is using the YouTube app on their iPad, they could easily fling the video to their TiVo connected TV or Chromecast connected TiVo. The way it works now, the TiVo app must be launched first on the TiVo. This eliminates the extra step and allows the TiVo to broadcast 'app' availability to any android or iOS app.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Exactly. When you fling something from Chrome or an app that supports DIAL it asks you which device to fling it to. Your TiVo would just show up in that list.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Exactly. When you fling something from Chrome or an app that supports DIAL it asks you which device to fling it to. Your TiVo would just show up in that list.


 Yes, that's my understanding of how it works too. Chromecast is just a DIAL client and TiVo supposedly will be another if Dave's article is true.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I just tried my Chromecast on the big TV (65" LED) and it doesn't look very good when playing Netflix. I use the TVs built in Netflix app for the same show and it looks way better. Although the TV is wired and the Chromecast is wifi with only 2 bars, so that could have something to do with it.

I also tried the casting feature of the Samsung TV (same menu as the Chromecast) it would launch the Netflix app, sometimes, but it wouldn't start the program. It would just crash and restart.

I tried Youtube, which is supported by both devices as well, and both of them looked about the same.

One thing the Chromecast can do, that the TV can't, is play flash based video from Chrome on my laptop. So I'll have some use for it when I miss something and need to watch it via the web instead.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

sbiller said:


> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-07/how-chromecast-could-jumpstart-tivos-retail-ambitions/


This thing is going to fail because it all about content Steve Jobbs is right when he said ".what people really wanted was movies, movies movies".

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jwherrman/the-world-isnt-ready-for-the-chromecast-yet

Also, the dongle requires a power supply, yet another cord to stuff behind your TV.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Johncv said:


> This thing is going to fail because it all about content Steve Jobbs is right when he said ".what people really wanted was movies, movies movies".
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/jwherrman/the-world-isnt-ready-for-the-chromecast-yet
> 
> Also, the dongle requires a power supply, yet another cord to stuff behind your TV.


It actually uses a thin USB cable. My TV had a USB port right next to the HDMI ports so the whole thing is still behind the TV.

They say some TVs can actually supply power via HDMI, but mine is brand new and supports HDMI 1.4 but it still would not power the Chromecast without the USB cable.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> One thing the Chromecast can do, that the TV can't, is play flash based video from Chrome on my laptop. So I'll have some use for it when I miss something and need to watch it via the web instead.


 Problem with that is typically the quality of the big 4 network TV web site videos is terrible. Full screen mode on my small 17" laptop looks bad enough for most of their flash videos, I would hate to see how that looks on a 60" display and further degraded via Chromecast. If it's a decent show I'd rather pay for a good quality Amazon download to my TiVo instead.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> Problem with that is typically the quality of the big 4 network TV web site videos is terrible. Full screen mode on my small 17" laptop looks bad enough for most of their flash videos, I would hate to see how that looks on a 60" display and further degraded via Chromecast. If it's a decent show I'd rather pay for a good quality Amazon download to my TiVo instead.


It's no different than streaming a Netflix video from the Cloud. Better than streaming airplay from an iOS device.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

After the internet flak dies down. Android sheep, Apple haters, Tivo haters, Roku lovers,Roku haters etc. Lets see how the general public gets along with thing. I can hear those calls to Leo (The Tech Guy on Twit) now...


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

sbiller said:


> It's no different than streaming a Netflix video from the Cloud. Better than streaming airplay from an iOS device.


 I strongly disagree with that. With Netflix I get mostly excellent "Super HD" 1080p/24 video quality that is actually better than what my cable company calls "HD" channels. In contrast, for example abc.com spits out very lousy quality in comparison. I'm actually very happy with video quality from Netflix and especially Amazon downloads.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Johncv said:


> Also, the dongle requires a power supply, yet another cord to stuff behind your TV.


Doesn't it only require power on devices that aren't running HDMI 1.4?

From an Amazon review



> Power Adapter:
> The power adapter is an optional requirement. In fact, most modern TV's with HDMI 1.4 or higher spec are supported. The Chromecast can draw power from the HDMI port it's plugged into. If your TV doesn't support that, there's also a USB cable and power adapter included in the box. I have a 2012 LG LED and a 2013 Lenovo 27" Monitor with HDMI input and the ports power it with no cable.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

My TV has HDMI 1.4 but I couldn't get it to power via the HDMI port.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

sbiller said:


> Completely disagree. TiVo would work the same way as the Chromecast dongle. If a TiVo owner is using the YouTube app on their iPad, they could easily fling the video to their TiVo connected TV or Chromecast connected TiVo. The way it works now, the TiVo app must be launched first on the TiVo. This eliminates the extra step and allows the TiVo to broadcast 'app' availability to any android or iOS app.


Oh, that's even worse. It does not use the Chromecast device at all. It still relies on the Tivo to do the streaming with it does (not) oh so well. I had figured Google would have outfitted the Chromecast device with enough memory and processor to start and buffer a stream for hitch free viewing, something far beyond the capability of the Tivo. Maybe not, have not seen many truly positive reviews of the Chromecast device yet. Seems to be pretty limited by poor wireless performance so far.

Oh well. Back to business as usual. Having a menu of vids on a tablet or other third party device that I can 'fling' to the TiVo is not of interest to me for the same reason I do not use a Roku. I use a whole home TiVo system, all audio, video and photos are presented via that same menu system. Period. One Device. One interface, consistent throughout the home.

Items are stored and pushed to TiVo for glitch free viewing. I will not tolerate network hickups in streaming video and most providers do not allow buffering of sufficient data to provide that.

I don't see the Chromecast device being of much use for hotel travel either due to the low bandwidth wifi available at most hotels. Usually 3Mbit or so if lucky.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Good comparison of Chromecast vs Airplay here -->

http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/24/4554130/google-chromecast-vs-apple-airplay-how-do-they-compare

Here is some info on what's inside the Chromecast dongle -->

http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/26/4560986/chromecast-teardown-ifixit

- Marvell "Armada" DE3005 processor 
- AzureWave combo Wi-Fi chip
- 4GB of flash memory
- 512MB of low-voltage RAM.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Chromecast-Marvell-AzureWave-Armada-Chrome,23658.html


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

aadam101 said:


> Back in the day, there was an app on Tivo that could capture a single screenshot of your PC and display it on screen. It was one of those HME things I think.


Good 'ol Galleon!


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

I read Dave's post as a wish, not a prediction.

IMO, a Tivo that is a google cast _receiver_ (what a chromecast device is) will never happen. Too much of a mixed user experience. Use your smartphone for these things, put it down and use the remote for the rest. IMO, Tivo's target audience still includes people who don't even have smartphones. Also, Tivo wants their box be the center of things.

I would like it to be able to serve to chromecasts, so a chromecast could serve as as poor man's Mini. But that would make the serving Tivo look bad because it's Netflix and Youtube don't measure up.

This is a device/protocol that someone could build a very nice smartphone controlled whole house DVR around, though.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

tlc said:


> I read Dave's post as a wish, not a prediction.
> 
> IMO, a Tivo that is a google cast _receiver_ (what a chromecast device is) will never happen. Too much of a mixed user experience. Use your smartphone for these things, put it down and use the remote for the rest. IMO, Tivo's target audience still includes people who don't even have smartphones. Also, Tivo wants their box be the center of things.
> 
> ...


Dave's post mentioned DIAL and Flingo has possible leverage points for implementing Chromecast on the TiVo. TiVo's YouTube app is virtually identical to the YouTube app available on many other devices. Have you tried it lately?

Netflix, OTOH, needs an update. I expect that we will see an update from Netflix eventually especially if TiVo can figure out a way to sell more boxes and possibly get Netflix on some of their MSO-partner boxes.

YouTube, Hulu Plus, and MLB TV perform very well on the Mini.

One other point is that Flingo is doing something with DIAL. Take a look at the Name Registry here -->

http://www.dial-multiscreen.org/dial-registry/namespace-database

Another thread also notice that TiVo's Web Video Launchpad powered by Flingo has been crippled with significantly reduced content... perhaps hinting at a different approach?



> Who Should Register
> 
> 1st screen applicationsthe registry is only needed, and only useful for 1st screen applications. If you, or your organization has developed a 1st screen application, and that application is publicly available on a device, or in an app marketplace, you can register the app name.
> Existing non-DIAL appsyou may register an app name even if the devices it runs on do not currently implement the DIAL protocol.
> App name prefixesif you have multiple 1st screen applications that will be named with a common prefix, and wish to reserve a name prefix. For example if you have the following apps: acme-videoPlayer, acme-musicJukebox, acme-pictureGallery  reserve the prefix acme-.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

windracer said:


> Good 'ol Galleon!


Yes! That's it! I couldn't remember the name. I don't think I've had any of those apps since I had a Series 2. They were great examples of things Tivo should do but doesn't (or doesn't do well).


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

There are a lot of people ITT being dismissive of DIAL and Chromecast and what it represents.

This is a 35 dollar piece of hardware that I used about an hour ago to stream HD netflix video to my TV, then within 20 seconds swapped it to playing some free song I had on my Google Music app (I use Amazon for music) and then within 20 seconds have pulled up one of my kids favorite YouTube videos... all from my phone. I paused it, jumped ahead half way, and exited out of it without a hitch.

I got better performance for streaming video playback out of a $35 dongle and my existing smart phone than I can get out of my $200 + sub TiVo box, my $300 PS3 or my 200ish dollar Xbox 360. Not to mention that 2 of those devices have boot-up times longer than the entire time it takes me to find and play a video on the Chromecast.

So, DIAL is going to be growing soon. If Google puts enough of these dongles on TVs and gets enough partners to embed the technology, the client applications will follow.

Now, TiVo could do what DIAL was originally designed for an actually just launch their embedded applications to stream the content... but why? Google has shown that a tiny little OS running nothing more than a glorified Chrome browser can stream HD video and music. Why launch a ridiculous flash application with an awful UI when you can just launch an open source browser in a sandbox? I promise you, Google would happily give TiVo the necessary code to embed this in to the next gen TiVo.

Don't look at what Chromecast does NOW (basically, only stream google content and netflix), look at what it COULD DO if implemented on the scale of AirPlay (HBOGO, watchESPN, Pandora, Amazon Instant Video, Amazon Music, Hulu, Spotify, etc).

And I haven't even touched on the browser window mirroring, which in some business environments is, by itself, a compelling enough reason to own one.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

You have to keep in mind that according to the article TiVo is targeting the series 5 hardware for DIAL, which if performance of Mini is any indication, will run these Flash apps MUCH faster than the current crappy series 4 hardware platform can. So you can't look at it in context of series 4 hardware/experience.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

moyekj said:


> You have to keep in mind that according to the article TiVo is targeting the series 5 hardware for DIAL, which if performance of Mini is any indication, will run these Flash apps MUCH faster than the current crappy series 4 hardware platform can. So you can't look at it in context of series 4 hardware/experience.


People need to remember that the Premiere platform is 2009 hardware and has needed to be update for a few years now. I honestly don't believe there is much life left in it and don't expect it has the ability to do much more than it already is.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

moyekj said:


> You have to keep in mind that according to the article TiVo is targeting the series 5 hardware for DIAL, which if performance of Mini is any indication, will run these Flash apps MUCH faster than the current crappy series 4 hardware platform can. So you can't look at it in context of series 4 hardware/experience.


I mean, the series 5 maybe COULD run the flash apps faster, but WHY?

Even my PS3 is slower than my Chromecast and I promise you that the new TiVo won't have better hardware than my PS3.

These touchscreen phones we all have now are just so fast to navigate, and we all have them optimized for the apps we use most, why would we possibly want to use a remote control?

It took my daughter about 30 seconds this morning to figure out the Chromecast. She's 2. Now, she already understood YouTube (we use Sesame Street videos for potty training help), so I just put her in front of the TV with the tablet and played the first video for her on the TV. And she, from there, figured out "hit play on the tablet, video plays on the TV." And she was off.

Now, I'm not saying I want my 2 year old to be able to use the PS3 and watch Netflix, but even if I did, there's no way she would figure out "turn on the Ps3, load the netflix app, go to favorites, play the video."

Whereas she surely knows how to launch netflix on my phone and look at the pictures of the videos that are on the home page and hit "play" when she sees Mickey Mouse.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> People need to remember that the Premiere platform is 2009 hardware and has needed to be update for a few years now. I honestly don't believe there is much life left in it and don't expect it has the ability to do much more than it already is.


I have to admit, I don't understand TiVo's hardware decisions. If the 2009 hardware is such a huge bottleneck, why wait 4 years for a refresh?

Apple doesn't wait 4 years to refresh hardware. Intel doesn't. Roku doesn't.

Even the XBox has a faster than every-4-years hardware cycle and it's supposed to be the SAME generation of Xbox!

I am struggling to think of any industry where hardware refreshes are this slow. I mean, I get the regulatory mess TiVo has to slog through... but when the hardware is causing you to not be able to innovate, it's destroying your business model.

Just put together a framework of tuners and cable card slots and periodically pop in new RAM and Proc's. I know differentiation like this might frustrate customers who feel like they are running the "old" model, but when upgrades are very reasonable and all of the money is in subscriptions, why not let the people who want to upgrade every year do it, which floods the market with used boxes for people who don't want to and just want to get in to a TiVo cheap, which should also help your sub-base.

I can only figure it's because of a combination of their small developer group (making testing software a hassle on multiple hardware platforms) and their fear of devaluing lifetime subs (oh noes people would just go to monthly instead?).


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> There are a lot of people ITT being dismissive of DIAL and Chromecast and what it represents.
> 
> This is a 35 dollar piece of hardware that I used about an hour ago to stream HD netflix video to my TV, then within 20 seconds swapped it to playing some free song I had on my Google Music app (I use Amazon for music) and then within 20 seconds have pulled up one of my kids favorite YouTube videos... all from my phone. I paused it, jumped ahead half way, and exited out of it without a hitch.
> 
> ...


How is it with audio? How do you get the advanced audio codec from Netflix to a receiver?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> How is it with audio? How do you get the advanced audio codec from Netflix to a receiver?


I haven't tested it enough to know if it retains AC3, but I use Audio Return Channel via HDMI on my TV for the built in apps. When I connected the Chromecast directly to the TV on another HDMI port the audio comes through the ARC just fine. If your TV doesn't have ARC then it likely has an optical port you can use. Although TVs are hit and miss when it comes to AC3 output. Some do it others convert everything to 2ch PCM. Just depends on the TV.


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## steinbch (Nov 23, 2007)

Grakthis said:


> Even the XBox has a faster than every-4-years hardware cycle and it's supposed to be the SAME generation of Xbox!
> 
> I am struggling to think of any industry where hardware refreshes are this slow. I mean, I get the regulatory mess TiVo has to slog through... but when the hardware is causing you to not be able to innovate, it's destroying your business model.


I think you're mistaken. The Xbox 360 was released towards the end of 2005. That's nearly eight years. The PS3 was released near the end of 2006. That's nearly seven years.

If you're going to count all of the different form factors, since the processors stayed the same, then you should also include the different varieties of Series 4 TiVos that have come out.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I tried it out and with it connected to my TV using ARC I only get stereo sound, but with it connected directly to the receiver I get 5.1, so it's capable of 5.1. Unfortunately I don't have a free port on my receiver at the moment so I have to leave it connected to the TV. Although I've been thinking about getting a new receiver anyway so this might push me over the edge. (Funny how a $11* purchase can turn into a $400 upgrade )

* after Netflix discount


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

sbiller said:


> It's no different than streaming a Netflix video from the Cloud. Better than streaming airplay from an iOS device.


There would be no point in streaming Netflix via AirPlay from an iOS device to an AppleTV -- the AppleTV has had a native Netflix app on it for a very long time.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I have to admit the Chromecast is very convenient for playing Netflix. The app is a lot easier to navigate then anything on the TV because you can flick around a lot quicker with your finger then you can navigate one selection at a time with a remote. And since it's not actually streaming from the iPad the quality is the same as you'd get from a native app running on a Roku, AppleTV, etc...

Also I can now see how TiVo might add something like this to the next gen hardware. It's a pretty simple protocol. Basically the app instructs the device (i.e. TiVo, Chromecast, etc...) to launch the Netflix app and then sends a few basic commands to start the proper video and then allow basic control like pause, seek, etc.... Pretty much any device with a Netflix app could support this type of functionality. 

If TiVo does add it then I think between that and the ability to actually search for Netflix shows/movies in the TiVo UI they would have a pretty badass implimentation. Provided of course the Netflix app doesn't run like a dog on the new hardware like it does on the current hardware.

In fact part of this already exists in the TiVo app. They show programs available in Netflix and Hulu in their iOS app with options to play those programs automatically by launching their respective apps. They could easily add an option to make those launch the apps on the TiVo itself instead. They might not even need DIAL. They have interfaces for all this stuff in their current MindRPC protocol already. Hmmmm


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

steinbch said:


> If you're going to count all of the different form factors, since the processors stayed the same, then you should also include the different varieties of Series 4 TiVos that have come out.


I was, of course, counting Xbox revisions, which had hardware changes. But fair enough, they didn't boost the proc in any of those... they just made mobo, memory and PSU changes. They did improve hardware performance in other ways though. Which you'd struggle to argue that TiVo has done in any of the Series 4 tivos. And when your S4 comes out and people are arguing if it's even faster than the S3, then you've messed up somewhere. No one is arguing if the PS4 is faster than the PS3.

I mean, you took the one that was "EVEN THESE GUYS DO IT" and went "well, kinda, sorta, they are almost as bad as TiVo." Which is not really helping the core thesis... which is that there is no excuse for this hardware release cycle.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> How is it with audio? How do you get the advanced audio codec from Netflix to a receiver?


The audio is as good as anything else I watch on my bedroom TV. I haven't hooked it up to a receiver yet. Presumably, if you want 5.1, you'll have to hook it up to a 5.1 receiver.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I have to admit the Chromecast is very convenient for playing Netflix. The app is a lot easier to navigate then anything on the TV because you can flick around a lot quicker with your finger then you can navigate one selection at a time with a remote. And since it's not actually streaming from the iPad the quality is the same as you'd get from a native app running on a Roku, AppleTV, etc...
> 
> Also I can now see how TiVo might add something like this to the next gen hardware. It's a pretty simple protocol. Basically the app instructs the device (i.e. TiVo, Chromecast, etc...) to launch the Netflix app and then sends a few basic commands to start the proper video and then allow basic control like pause, seek, etc.... Pretty much any device with a Netflix app could support this type of functionality.
> 
> ...


If you don't use DIAL, it defeats the point of having an open protocol. I don't want to have to launch a TiVo app to do this. I want to do it from inside of netflix.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Grakthis said:


> Which you'd struggle to argue that TiVo has done in any of the Series 4 tivos. And when your S4 comes out and people are arguing if it's even faster than the S3, then you've messed up somewhere.


Agreed. A large part of their mistake came from deciding to have the OS be so internet-centric, getting dynamic content (and advertising :down: ) on-the-fly from the cloud. Not to mention the pathetic performance of Adobe AIR and Flash on these boxes. Not to mention how long it took them to activate the second core.

I've all but decided that my TiVo Premiere (2-tuner, with 2TB HDD) will be the last TiVo hardware I ever buy. I was happy when the TiVo Stream came out (their iPad app was the last good thing to come out from this company, and I'm pretty certain they'd outsourced it.) Their announcement that the TiVo Mini would only work on 4-tuner Premieres (because they couldn't figure out dynamic tuner allocation) was the straw that broke this camel's back.

I do think TiVo still has the best DVR platform, in terms of overall user friendliness, stability and reliability, but their lead is fading fast. More importantly, I am not watching enough broadcast TV these days to counterbalance my constant disappointment with their innovation and tech initiatives. Every thing they've done beyond simple DVR'ing (specifically with relation to "one box" web video handling) had been a tremendous DUD. And these days, those are the areas that are actually important to most tech-savvy audiences!

Video podcasts, internet webisodes, streaming, flinging and casting, downloads on demand, and all that jazz -- that's what I'm interested in. And TiVo has proven to be the worst at all of it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Grakthis said:


> I was, of course, counting Xbox revisions, which had hardware changes. But fair enough, they didn't boost the proc in any of those... they just made mobo, memory and PSU changes. They did improve hardware performance in other ways though. Which you'd struggle to argue that TiVo has done in any of the Series 4 tivos. And when your S4 comes out and people are arguing if it's even faster than the S3, then you've messed up somewhere. No one is arguing if the PS4 is faster than the PS3.
> 
> I mean, you took the one that was "EVEN THESE GUYS DO IT" and went "well, kinda, sorta, they are almost as bad as TiVo." Which is not really helping the core thesis... which is that there is no excuse for this hardware release cycle.


They release an updated version with 4 tuners instead of 2, same CPU but pretty much everything else is different. Seems to be about equivalent to XBox revisions.

And when running the old UI the S4 is significantly faster then the S3. Also transfers between TiVos and TiVoToGo are significantly faster. The bottle neck in the S4 platform is the HDUI. If you compare apples to apples then the S4 is a major improvement over the S3.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> I've all but decided that my TiVo Premiere (2-tuner, with 2TB HDD) will be the last TiVo hardware I ever buy. I was happy when the TiVo Stream came out (their iPad app was the last good thing to come out from this company, and I'm pretty certain they'd outsourced it.) Their announcement that the TiVo Mini would only work on 4-tuner Premieres (because they couldn't figure out dynamic tuner allocation) was the straw that broke this camel's back.


If the HDUI runs as well on the next gen hardware as it does on the Mini, and it should, then I think TiVo will really be back in the game. Although they need to work out app deals with content providers like HBOGo and VUDU if they want to make good on that whole "one box" thing. Throwing in a DLNA client wouldn't hurt either.

There is a pretty reliable rumor going around that dynamic tuner allocation is being beta tested right now and should come out this fall. I wonder if they'll remove the 4 tuner limitation on the Mini when that hits? Will be an interesting development if it does.

Dan


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> They release an updated version with 4 tuners instead of 2, same CPU but pretty much everything else is different. Seems to be about equivalent to XBox revisions.
> 
> And when running the old UI the S4 is significantly faster then the S3. Also transfers between TiVos and TiVoToGo are significantly faster. The bottle neck in the S4 platform is the HDUI. If you compare apples to apples then the S4 is a major improvement over the S3.


Yeah, the HDUI has gotten a tiny bit faster (maybe that's the 2nd core) but it's still got lag and is annoying to use. And BTW, it is *still* not complete! What a joke.

Why would the HDUI slow down transfers between TiVos and TiVoToGo? You'd think that was all handled underneath that particular UI layer.

They've made some horrible decisions with this.

I think I'm going to switch back to the SD UI tonight. And use the iPad app for as much as control as possible. After what I've been through, it'll probably feel like my TiVo got an upgrade of greased lightning.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> If the HDUI runs as well on the next gen hardware as it does on the Mini, and it should, then I think TiVo will really be back in the game. Although they need to work out app deals with content providers like HBOGo and VUDU if they want to make good on that whole "one box" thing. Throwing in a DLNA client wouldn't hurt either.
> 
> There is a pretty reliable rumor going around that dynamic tuner allocation is being beta tested right now and should come out this fall. I wonder if they'll remove the 4 tuner limitation on the Mini when that hits? Will be an interesting development if it does.
> 
> Dan


I wonder if they would bother to remove it though since based off the rumors so far there is no mention of a 2 tuner series 5.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Grakthis said:


> ... which is that there is no excuse for this hardware release cycle.





Fofer said:


> Agreed. A large part of their mistake came from deciding to have the OS be so internet-centric, getting dynamic content (and advertising :down: ) on-the-fly from the cloud. Not to mention the pathetic performance of Adobe AIR and Flash on these boxes. Not to mention how long it took them to activate the second core....





Dan203 said:


> ...And when running the old UI the S4 is significantly faster then the S3. Also transfers between TiVos and TiVoToGo are significantly faster. The bottle neck in the S4 platform is the HDUI. If you compare apples to apples then the S4 is a major improvement over the S3.


In hindsight it is fairly clear what TiVo should have done. The Premiere should have been released in the fall of 2009 with only the SDUI and billed as a performance upgrade to the TiVo HD. They then should have continued to worked on the HDUI until it was functional and they were ready to release a 4 tuner model (Fall of 2011?) and done a hardware refresh at the same time to something that met flash specs.

Woulda Coulda Shoulda


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> There is a pretty reliable rumor going around that dynamic tuner allocation is being beta tested right now and should come out this fall. I wonder if they'll remove the 4 tuner limitation on the Mini when that hits? Will be an interesting development if it does.


My hunch is that it'll come out and work great with 4-tuner Premieres only.
And true to form they will disappoint (yet again) by not making it available to 2-tuner Premieres. After all, they never said the Mini would work with those models, why bother backtracking and changing that caveat? They'd rather folks buy new hardware anyway.

That particular announcement is what I am hinging my own TiVo future on. I'd love a Mini for my office. And I refuse to replace my 2-Tuner Premiere with a 4-Tuner Premiere just for that. I never have tuner conflicts, I don't even record that much content these days.



Dan203 said:


> Although they need to work out app deals with content providers like HBOGo and VUDU if they want to make good on that whole "one box" thing. Throwing in a DLNA client wouldn't hurt either.


I'll believe it when I see it. Not only would these apps be welcome, but TiVo needs to figure out how to make the user experience pleasant. What they have now is anything but.

Chromecast (DIAL) support would be a nice thing to see, too. And wouldn't need any "front-facing" UI from TiVo. Their current "Flingo" implementation is a sad joke, when compared to what we're already seeing from the $35 Chromecast.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Most of the poor user experience with the S4 stems from the abysmally slow CPU. I'm really hoping that the souped up hardware in the next gen units will get rid of that problem. I don't know if you've ever used a Mini but the UI experience on it is soooooooo much better. I actually considered using one as a front end for my Elite at one point, unfortunately they don't have access to ToDo or the SPM so it wouldn't really work.

I have high hopes for the next gen TiVos. I really hope they don't disappoint me.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Fofer said:


> Their announcement that the TiVo Mini would only work on 4-tuner Premieres (because they couldn't figure out dynamic tuner allocation) was the straw that broke this camel's back.
> ....Video podcasts, internet webisodes, streaming, flinging and casting, downloads on demand, and all that jazz -- that's what I'm interested in. And TiVo has proven to be the worst at all of it.


Wait, I thought the 4 tuner premiere thing was only an "at launch time" thing? Did they say that officially that's what will EVER be supported?

Also, hmm, that's funny, since the things you're interested in seem to be exactly what most other people AREN'T interested in regarding a DVR.. they just want it to record their TV shows reliably. And 'downloads on demand' -- what specifically do you mean? There's Amazon for that.

I actually think it does a pretty good job for video podcasts, I still have a bunch of CNET podcasts subscribed to on my Tivos (have to nuke a bunch of the auto downloads on one tivo & consolidate them), though I end up *watching* them mostly on my iPad mini, since I can watch at 2x.. But I still download them on the Tivo so far.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> They release an updated version with 4 tuners instead of 2, same CPU but pretty much everything else is different. Seems to be about equivalent to XBox revisions.
> 
> And when running the old UI the S4 is significantly faster then the S3. Also transfers between TiVos and TiVoToGo are significantly faster. The bottle neck in the S4 platform is the HDUI. If you compare apples to apples then the S4 is a major improvement over the S3.


Your core point is valid, but you're still whiffing on arguing against my thesis. Which means either you don't get it, or you're nitpicking minor details that are totally irrelevant.

The Xbox 360, today, right now, is plenty fast enough for everything the Xbox does. The Premiere was not fast enough ON RELEASE to do what it was designed to do. Period. The End. Improvements tot he Xbox left us with a platform that was more efficient, cheaper and added features. Improvements to the Premier platform left us with a platform that is still too slow, still lacks innovation and still barely outperforms the previous generation of hardware.

It doesn't matter in the slightest if the old UI is faster on the new TiVo because I didn't buy the old UI, I bought the new UI. What matters to users is "is the actual experience of using the device improved." The answer is "meh, not really."

If you're comparing apples to apples, where apples are the actual things you actually consume and not theoretical things you might theoretically consume if you have bad taste and hate innovation, then the Premiere is maybe equally as fast as the S3. Probably. But meanwhile, in the real world, with real people who actually use the S3 and the premier, it's not faster.

I mean, you're literally talking to someone who has an original LED $800 S3 with the THX certification and 2 cable cards in his bedroom and a Premiere in his TV room. I switch back and forth between the two daily. I am WELL aware of the performance differences between the two. There is no performance incentive to upgrade from the S3 to a Premier. The only reason I've considered upgrading the S3 is for streaming and so I can save $3 a month on the cable card i could return.

If you have a point to make, make it. Otherwise, just go "Yes, Grak, I agree, the premiere was a poor hardware refresh and they should have done more with it" and I can nod and stop having to write 10 paragraph posts to respond to you.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> In hindsight it is fairly clear what TiVo should have done. The Premiere should have been released in the fall of 2009 with only the SDUI and billed as a performance upgrade to the TiVo HD. They then should have continued to worked on the HDUI until it was functional and they were ready to release a 4 tuner model (Fall of 2011?) and done a hardware refresh at the same time to something that met flash specs.
> 
> Woulda Coulda Shoulda


Couldn't agree more.

I also think they blew it with the Flash UI. It was just a poor choice of platform. But I doubt they reboot the whole UI again 4 years later unless they realized it as soon as they released it and were already working on a new platform in Java or something.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

mattack said:


> Wait, I thought the 4 tuner premiere thing was only an "at launch time" thing? Did they say that officially that's what will EVER be supported?
> 
> Also, hmm, that's funny, since the things you're interested in seem to be exactly what most other people AREN'T interested in regarding a DVR.. they just want it to record their TV shows reliably. And 'downloads on demand' -- what specifically do you mean? There's Amazon for that.
> 
> I actually think it does a pretty good job for video podcasts, I still have a bunch of CNET podcasts subscribed to on my Tivos (have to nuke a bunch of the auto downloads on one tivo & consolidate them), though I end up *watching* them mostly on my iPad mini, since I can watch at 2x.. But I still download them on the Tivo so far.


I'm not going to stop using TiVos for cable TV because I am mad about their lack of DIAL support or the bad Netflix app. There is no competitor for them in the DVR market. What they do there, they do amazing and better than anyone else to the point where my choice of cable TV service is dictated by their TiVo support.

What TiVo needs to be afraid of is how much of my regular TV watching is being replaced by internet media of some kind. If they don't keep up with that and make sure that TiVo remains the hub for my other media consumption, they are going to lose Input1 on my TV. And if you lose Input1 on my TV, you start looking more and more replaceable.

Every time I hit the input button on my TV and switch to my Chromecast or PS3 to watch a show, that should cause a TiVo employee to scream in rage at their failures. They should strive to prevent that from ever happening.

edit: Dynamic Tuner Allocation is, more and more, looking like a feature that is never happening. If the mini isn't selling, they aren't going to devote developer resources to improving it.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Fofer said:


> I think I'm going to switch back to the SD UI tonight. And use the iPad app for as much as control as possible. After what I've been through, it'll probably feel like my TiVo got an upgrade of greased lightning.


Yep. Precisely this happened. My TiVo feels sooooooo fast now. The menus are big, noatalgic, cartoony and ugly... but boy, is the overall UI so much more RESPONSIVE!


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Grakthis said:


> edit: Dynamic Tuner Allocation is, more and more, looking like a feature that is never happening. If the mini isn't selling, they aren't going to devote developer resources to improving it.


The mini isn't selling because there ISN'T dynamic tuner allocation yet, not the other way around. (and most likely due to no 2 tuner Premiere support as well)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Grakthis said:


> Your core point is valid, but you're still whiffing on arguing against my thesis. Which means either you don't get it, or you're nitpicking minor details that are totally irrelevant.
> 
> The Xbox 360, today, right now, is plenty fast enough for everything the Xbox does. The Premiere was not fast enough ON RELEASE to do what it was designed to do. Period. The End. Improvements tot he Xbox left us with a platform that was more efficient, cheaper and added features. Improvements to the Premier platform left us with a platform that is still too slow, still lacks innovation and still barely outperforms the previous generation of hardware.
> 
> ...


I wasn't trying to argue that the Premiere is a good box. I was simply pointing out that the refresh of the XBox platform was minor, and did not include a CPU upgrade either, so it was a poor comparison. If anything the 4 tuner refresh of the Premiere was a bigger hardware change. But really this is an apples to oranges comparison so it's irrelevant.

I completely agree that the Premiere is too slow. I constantly say that on here. Until about 6 months ago I was still using the SDUI on my Premiere because the HDUI is so slow. The only reason I switched is because the changes to the To Do List and SPM made them so much easier to use. If it weren't for that I'd still be using the SDUI.

I actually wonder if the hardware was designed before they decided to do the UI in Flash. Because if the original intent was to stick with the old UI then the Premiere would have been a massive improvement over the S3. If the HDUI didn't exist the Premiere would be heralded as the best TiVo to date. The only thing that makes it a flop is that the HDUI is so freaking slow. (and the apps are slow too)

That being said if you've ever used a Mini you now how nice the HDUI is to use when it's paired with proper hardware. It's fast and effortless on the Mini. Which is why I'm so anxiously awaiting the next gen boxes. If they can run the HDUI as fast as the Mini then we should finally get to see the full potential of the HDUI. (would be nice if they finished all the screens too)



Grakthis said:


> edit: Dynamic Tuner Allocation is, more and more, looking like a feature that is never happening. If the mini isn't selling, they aren't going to devote developer resources to improving it.


According to Dave Zatz they're beta testing dynamic tuner allocation right now. With the Mini you have to remember that their main target is not consumers but their cable partners. They've got commitments there beyond just pleasing the few thousand people who bought these at retail.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> That being said if you've ever used a Mini you now how nice the HDUI is to use when it's paired with proper hardware. It's fast and effortless on the Mini. Which is why I'm so anxiously awaiting the next gen boxes. If they can run the HDUI as fast as the Mini then we should finally get to see the full potential of the HDUI. (would be nice if they finished all the screens too)


And if the Mini worked with a two-tuner Premiere, even just to watch already-recorded shows in the NP List (as I never watch live TV) then I'd buy two of them. If it doesn't, I won't be upgrading to a four-tuner Premiere to make up for TiVo's incompetence -- this box will be my last.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> And if the Mini worked with a two-tuner Premiere, even just to watch already-recorded shows in the NP List (as I never watch live TV) then I'd buy two of them. If it doesn't, I won't be upgrading to a four-tuner Premiere to make up for TiVo's incompetence -- this box will be my last.


You can watch already recorded shows on a 2 tuner box from a Mini, I do it all the time. However it has to be paired to a 4 tuner box, at least for the time being. Basically the Mini is a reflection of the 4 tuner box it's paired to so when you select My Shows it shows the list on the 4 tuner box. But down at the bottom is a list of all the other TiVos on your network, including 2 tuner boxes, that you can select and play shows from just like you can from another TiVo.

I'm not sure if the release of DTA is going to remove the 4 tuner as host restriction or not. We'll have to wait and see what they do there.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Sure, but I have only one TiVo in my home, a 2-Tuner Premiere. I have no need for a 4-Tuner Premiere as I don't get any recording conflicts with the box I already own.

Is the 4-Tuner Premiere needed for set up of a Mini only? I'm guessing once that 4-Tuner Premiere is removed, at least after awhile, the Mini would stop working. If not, I'd borrow someone's for the setup and then use it with my 2-Tuner Premiere for the rest of its days. I have a feeling that won't pan out, though.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The Mini is a reflection of the 4 tuner box, so I'm not sure if it would work at all if the 4 tuner box were removed. Probably not.

So the big question is will the release of DTA allow the Mini to use a 2 tuner box as a host. Technically it should be possible, but I have no idea if TiVo will actually allow it.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I think TiVo has made it pretty clear - in writing - that it is "Compatible with any TiVo DVR with four or more tuners"

I think you are tilting at windmills if you think that policy is going to change even with DTA.

[media]http://7554xysb4c4dxy7u.zippykid.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/tivo-mini-box.jpg[/media]


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I agree, sadly. They are very, very good at delivering disappointments, quite late. I don't know why I remain surprised by how consistently TiVo manages to disappoint their customers in this way.

All I wanted from the TiVo Mini was an easy, user friendly way to watch my NP list in another room. I'm doing that now with loooong component cables and the Bluetooth Slide remote, but a Mini (developed and executed properly) would have been a better solution. And it would have worked in a third room (my office.) 

Ah well. Farewell TiVo, it's been a long run.

From here on out, any new TV devices I buy will be engineered by companies that know what they're doing. AppleTV, Roku, Chromecast, and heck, even "smart" Blu Ray players and TV's are getting more use out of me today.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Well the packaging could change after DTA is released, but you're probably right. At this point I'd say the chances of it working with a 2 tuner unit is pretty slim. Especially with new devices on the horizon, the lowest version of which has 4 tuners.

Edit: On the plus side indications are that the next gen 4 tuner box should be cheaper then the current one and be a LOT faster. So maybe that'll be enough incentive to get you to upgrade.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

I thought I read here that once the mini is paired with a 4 tuner, it can be removed and still work with your 2 tuner? Do a search and I think you'll find it.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> I thought I read here that once the mini is paired with a 4 tuner, it can be removed and still work with your 2 tuner? Do a search and I think you'll find it.


Some guy associated a mini with a P4 and then disconnected the P4 and the Mini continued to work streaming from other P2's on his network.

This is a far cry from saying that the Mini will maintain that functionality for any resonable amount of time. It just says that the TiVo doesn't do a real-time check for a P4 when using it.

What happens when you reboot the P2 or the Mini? What happens when your network goes down and the units need to reauthenticate with each other.

Others may jump in and say but.. but...

My opinion? Best case is it may work for a little while, but I expect you would be very dissapointed in short order when the Mini stopped working - and you can never allocat a P2 tuner for live TV.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I just tried it. I disconnected my Elite from the network and then rebooted and forced a call on the Mini. And it still works with my other TiVos. However every single time I went to My Shows it threw an error saying the Elite was missing that I had to dismiss, so that was annoying. Plus the discovery bar had a constant error about the Elite being missing similar to the one you get on a TiVo when it's not connected to the internet. Also I'm not sure if there is some sort of time bomb that would trigger a problem if the Mini didn't connect to the host for X number of days. Not willing to leave my Elite disconnected from the network that long.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Well the packaging could change after DTA is released, but you're probably right. At this point I'd say the chances of it working with a 2 tuner unit is pretty slim. Especially with new devices on the horizon, the lowest version of which has 4 tuners.
> 
> Edit: On the plus side indications are that the next gen 4 tuner box should be cheaper then the current one and be a LOT faster. So maybe that'll be enough incentive to get you to upgrade.


Okay but the current 4 tuner box doesn't have a OTA antenna input, does it? The 2 tuner Premier does, and I want to keep that. Will the next gen 4 tuner box have it?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Fofer said:


> Okay but the current 4 tuner box doesn't have a OTA antenna input, does it? The 2 tuner Premier does, and I want to keep that. Will the next gen 4 tuner box have it?


Yes.

I have heard a rumor (zatz) that during setup you can choose either OTA or Cablecard with the new 4 tuner units. So yes, but not at the same time - if the rumors are true.


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

I just got a notification from Amazon that my Chromecast should arrive 8/21. They've stopped taking orders, though.


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## siratfus (Oct 3, 2008)

sbiller said:


> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-07/how-chromecast-could-jumpstart-tivos-retail-ambitions/


I was going to start a thread asking if Chromecast can one day be baked into Tivo. Is this article basically talking about that?

Another solution or workaround is more HDMI inputs. I ran across a Chinese media box based based on Android, and I thought it had a very unique feature. It had an HDMI input like the Xbox One. I thought it was a big deal that Xbox came up with this feature, yet here's a no name android box with this same feature. It would be cool if the Tivo had an extra HDMI input. The two things I use most in my home is the Tivo and the Chromecast, but it doesn't have that ALL IN ONE feeling when you manage multiple controllers and switch TV inputs. If I can go to my chromecast within my tivo interface, that would be awesome. But since that's hardware, that ship has sailed. I can only hope for a software update that would bake chromecast into tivo. Do you guys see this ever happening?


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

siratfus said:


> I was going to start a thread asking if Chromecast can one day be baked into Tivo. Is this article basically talking about that?
> 
> Another solution or workaround is more HDMI inputs. *I ran across a Chinese media box based based on Android, and I thought it had a very unique feature. It had an HDMI input like the Xbox One. I thought it was a big deal that Xbox came up with this feature, yet here's a no name android box with this same feature.* It would be cool if the Tivo had an extra HDMI input. The two things I use most in my home is the Tivo and the Chromecast, but it doesn't have that ALL IN ONE feeling when you manage multiple controllers and switch TV inputs. If I can go to my chromecast within my tivo interface, that would be awesome. But since that's hardware, that ship has sailed. I can only hope for a software update that would bake chromecast into tivo. Do you guys see this ever happening?


GoogleTV had this feature baked in and then later merged Google TV into "Android for TV" to try and get them on a more similar codebase.

we've discussed before that since there is a browser inside of the TiVo already (Opera) that DIAL and GoogleCast capabilities are at TiVo's disposal if they WANTED to go that route. It's code and software (and working with google obv) to make it happen. No hardware required.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

This sort of stuff will help with the OTT content, but it's not going to really affect the core DVR functionality. Even if they did support Chromecast or Roku through the TiVo Stream, it still can't replace a Mini, as you're going to introduce a ton of lag into the interface, you wouldn't have the same remote, and the video quality isn't going to be as good (transcoded).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

siratfus said:


> I was going to start a thread asking if Chromecast can one day be baked into Tivo. Is this article basically talking about that?


The Premier and Roamio units both support the DIAL protocol which allows you to pick videos in the Netflix and YouTube apps on your portable device and then cast it to the TV through the TiVo. Basically it launches the app on the TiVo and starts playing the video you selected, then gives you limited control over the app from your device. (i.e. Scrubbing, pause, play etc...)


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

siratfus said:


> It had an HDMI input like the Xbox One. I thought it was a big deal that Xbox came up with this feature


I think that's giving an AWFUL lot of credit to Xbox. (I have nothing against Xbox or MS, btw.... well, except putting out buggy stuff a lot.)

While I admit it's not EXACTLY the same, simply being able to use a VCR as passthrough when turning it off (or I had one where you could simply turn the video output off separately from the VCR itself) is _vaguely_ similar to this kind of video passthrough.

I don't doubt there are many other devices that have had this sort of 'live' passthrough long before Xbox One too.. (Heck, an external closed caption decoder comes even closer than my VCR example.)

But similarly, I use my XS32 as a 'video switcher' for my TV most of the time since it's MUCH faster than switching HDMI inputs on the TV.


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## todd_j_derr (Jun 6, 2000)

Dan203 - the minis support that as well.

mattack - yeah, like grakthis said, GoogleTV devices have a HDMI input, and can passthru/overlay/window the signal. I wish there was a version of the Chromecast that did that, having to switch inputs is a pain. Having an "embedded chromecast" in the Tivo (or GoogleTV) would serve the same purpose, although I doubt either of those things would happen.


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## siratfus (Oct 3, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> The Premier and Roamio units both support the DIAL protocol which allows you to pick videos in the Netflix and YouTube apps on your portable device and then cast it to the TV through the TiVo. Basically it launches the app on the TiVo and starts playing the video you selected, then gives you limited control over the app from your device. (i.e. Scrubbing, pause, play etc...)


Yeah, I do use that sometimes without switching over to my chromecast. The youtube has this strange white line in the upper right corner. Does not appear when using the real chromecast. I mainly use Chromecast for accessing my Plex Media server in the garage. Plus, there is a bootleg movie streaming app that is much better than Netflix.  There is so much you can do with the chromecast. The best $35 ever spent.


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## siratfus (Oct 3, 2008)

Bigg said:


> This sort of stuff will help with the OTT content, but it's not going to really affect the core DVR functionality. Even if they did support Chromecast or Roku through the TiVo Stream, it still can't replace a Mini, as you're going to introduce a ton of lag into the interface, you wouldn't have the same remote, and the video quality isn't going to be as good (transcoded).


It's not about replacing the mini. It's about having a truly ALL IN ONE. If my Roamio has chromecast baked in, I would still need my Mini in another room. And I would love to be able to access chromecast through the Mini as well. If a little $35 dongle stream without lagging, why wouldn't the tivo hardware be able to handle it? As for remote, the chromecast is controlled by your smartphone.

The only time there is lagging with chromecast is when you're not casting, but mirroring. When you mirror your chrome tab from your PC, it sucks because your pc is doing all the processing. This is the workaround for Amazon Prime, but it sucks. In Chrome Beta, there is now an option to mirror your entire desktop. So you no longer have to drag compatible movie files into the chrome tab, you can play virtually any file type in your WMP, VLC, etc. and mirror your desktop to chromecast. But like I said, it sucks.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

siratfus said:


> It's not about replacing the mini. It's about having a truly ALL IN ONE. If my Roamio has chromecast baked in, I would still need my Mini in another room. And I would love to be able to access chromecast through the Mini as well. If a little $35 dongle stream without lagging, why wouldn't the tivo hardware be able to handle it? As for remote, the chromecast is controlled by your smartphone.


TiVos record content in their native format, which is typically MPEG-2 at about 15Mbps. When you stream to a Mini you're pushing that full size stream across you network. A Chromecast is streaming from internet based sources which are compressed using H.264 and typically max out at about 6Mbps. (6Mbps is Netflix "super HD", regular HD is almost 1/2 that) These internet streaming services also use adaptive encoding techniques where they can automatically lower the resolution or bitrate of the video dynamically if your network is having trouble keeping up with the stream. The TiVo Stream can recode the video to a much lower bitrate that streams better over wifi, but the transcoding part takes time so there is a lag when interacting with the stream so the experience isn't as smooth as it is when using a Mini.

So basically the answer to your question is... Apples and oranges. Although with the right apps the Mini could do the same things as a Chromecast but the Chromecast could never do the same thing as a Mini.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

siratfus said:


> It's not about replacing the mini. It's about having a truly ALL IN ONE. If my Roamio has chromecast baked in, I would still need my Mini in another room. And I would love to be able to access chromecast through the Mini as well. If a little $35 dongle stream without lagging, why wouldn't the tivo hardware be able to handle it? As for remote, the chromecast is controlled by your smartphone.
> 
> The only time there is lagging with chromecast is when you're not casting, but mirroring. When you mirror your chrome tab from your PC, it sucks because your pc is doing all the processing. This is the workaround for Amazon Prime, but it sucks. In Chrome Beta, there is now an option to mirror your entire desktop. So you no longer have to drag compatible movie files into the chrome tab, you can play virtually any file type in your WMP, VLC, etc. and mirror your desktop to chromecast. But like I said, it sucks.


By the time TiVo bakes anything in, version 3 of that thing will be available cheaply. Hence, I'd rather have separate devices. I don't mind if TiVo tries and fails, like they do now with anything that doesn't involve content coming through linear cable, but I'm still going to use separate devices, for maximum functionality of all the devices...



Dan203 said:


> TiVos record content in their native format, which is typically MPEG-2 at about 15Mbps. When you stream to a Mini you're pushing that full size stream across you network. A Chromecast is streaming from internet based sources which are compressed using H.264 and typically max out at about 6Mbps. (6Mbps is Netflix "super HD", regular HD is almost 1/2 that) These internet streaming services also use adaptive encoding techniques where they can automatically lower the resolution or bitrate of the video dynamically if your network is having trouble keeping up with the stream. The TiVo Stream can recode the video to a much lower bitrate that streams better over wifi, but the transcoding part takes time so there is a lag when interacting with the stream so the experience isn't as smooth as it is when using a Mini.
> 
> So basically the answer to your question is... Apples and oranges. Although with the right apps the Mini could do the same things as a Chromecast but the Chromecast could never do the same thing as a Mini.


Exactly. It's two rather different things. It doesn't affect your point, but Comcast is 12mbps, Verizon is up to 18mbps, so everything has to be designed to 18mbps. Unfortunately, no OTA stations use the full 18mbps anymore, as they have a gazillion subchannels.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

todd_j_derr said:


> Dan203 - the minis support that as well.
> 
> mattack - yeah, like grakthis said, GoogleTV devices have a HDMI input, and can passthru/overlay/window the signal. I wish there was a version of the Chromecast that did that, having to switch inputs is a pain. Having an "embedded chromecast" in the Tivo (or GoogleTV) would serve the same purpose, although I doubt either of those things would happen.


Google is cooking up stuff for DIAL and GoogleCast. I promise you. ChromeCast has been too successful for Google to stop there. More GoogleCasting devices are coming.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Grakthis said:


> Google is cooking up stuff for DIAL and GoogleCast. I promise you. ChromeCast has been too successful for Google to stop there. More GoogleCasting devices are coming.


Yeah, Cromecast support will surely be built into some type of STB and possibly TVs in the future.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

DIAL support is already there, at least for some (Samsung and maybe other) TV's...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> DIAL support is already there, at least for some (Samsung and maybe other) TV's...


As mentioned above TiVo added DIAL to both the Roamio and Premiere TiVos too.


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