# Guide update defect - READ IF YOU'RE PLANNING TO RECORD AFC GAME!



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Also put this in the season pass area, but since it's not just for season pass thought I'd put it here as well....


Confirmed today with Tivo. NFL game (Cincy at Pgh) rescheduled from 1pm to 8:20pm on NBC today (28 Dec). NFL changed the time/network a full week ago. Tivo.com shows guide correctly. TVGuide, and Zap2it shows it correctly. Verizon DVR has no issue whatsoever with it.

Tivo Roamio Pro (both) and Tivo Premier as well as Minis all show Cincy at Pgh still playing at 1pm. Shows NFL "TBA" in program guide on NBC at 8:20pm.

Checked Tivos - all had already made successful connection earlier today.

Forced connection with all Tivos. 

Restarted Roamio Pro.

Finally, with support, cleared program data and went through guided setup all over again on Roamio Pro.

No change in data. Had I not manually checked, the game would NOT have recorded - period. Tivo validated that there is apparently a defect in the guide update process and cannot explain the issue. This is not the first issue by far, but is the first one I noticed in advance enough to create a manual recording.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

wmhjr said:


> Also put this in the season pass area, but since it's not just for season pass thought I'd put it here as well....
> 
> Tivo validated that there is apparently a defect in the guide update process and cannot explain the issue. This is not the first issue by far, but is the first one I noticed in advance enough to create a manual recording.


I'm shocked.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Additionally, just noticed.

Even Tivo.com shows CBS currently airing Carolina at Atlanta. However, ALL Tivo guides show Raiders and Broncos. 

Tivo.com shows Lions at Packers right now on Fox. Actual Tivo Guide data shows Arizona at San Francisco.

The big problem here is that if you setup the recording ahead of time or if you tried within the past week just by using the Tivo guide, you are now getting a totally different game than you intended.

At least I found out ahead of time. I feel bad for anyone not noticing this that will come home later today expecting to watch a game, and realizing that for example, instead of the Cincy-Pgh game, they'd have some soccer to watch. 

The ONLY place where the data is incorrect seems to be on the online Tivo guides. It would be interesting to schedule the recording on Tivo.com and see what happened when it did not match the guide data. Not going to try but it would be interesting. With my luck, it would just lock up the friggin Roamio.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Also put this in the season pass area, but since it's not just for season pass thought I'd put it here as well....
> 
> Confirmed today with Tivo. NFL game (Cincy at Pgh) rescheduled from 1pm to 8:20pm on NBC today (28 Dec). NFL changed the time/network a full week ago. Tivo.com shows guide correctly. TVGuide, and Zap2it shows it correctly. Verizon DVR has no issue whatsoever with it.
> 
> ...


There is another scheduling issue, and this is true even at zap2it. There's only 1 NFL game currently scheduled for Saturday January 3rd, the 4:30PM EST game on NBC. The second game, supposed to also be on NBC at 8:10PM EST, is nowhere to be found. Instead, it is "The Mysteries of Laura", "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit", SNL, and local news.



wmhjr said:


> At least I found out ahead of time. I feel bad for anyone not noticing this that will come home later today expecting to watch a game, and realizing that for example, instead of the Cincy-Pgh game, they'd have some soccer to watch.


What the heck are you talking about in this paragraph? Ir's still an NFL game, just not Bengals-Steelers.


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## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

Mine shows the game at 820 just fine.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

joewom said:


> Mine shows the game at 820 just fine.


What does it show?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

waynomo said:


> What does it show?


Good question. I still show TBA for NBC tonight. Info button is wrong too, of course.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> What the heck are you talking about in this paragraph? Ir's still an NFL game, just not Bengals-Steelers.


It's called sarcasm. I have no desire to record the other games or watch them if recorded. I DO desire to record the game I'm interested in and watch it later. Frankly, I was sarcastically comparing the Cleveland/Baltimore game to watch a soccer match. Don't care to watch either team, neither has any possibility of making the playoffs. However, the game I DID set to record would not have.

Edit: I guess the Ravens made it in with a Charger loss, but no matter. Still would never have watched a minute of the game.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

JoeKustra said:


> Good question. I still show TBA for NBC tonight. Info button is wrong too, of course.


That is still what I'm seeing on every one of my units.

NFL Football
"Teams TBA"
(8:20pm - 11:30pm) No information available. (HD,CC,Stereo,SAP) No
Rating, Football, Sports Event, First aired 1/1/09


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> That is still what I'm seeing on every one of my units.
> 
> NFL Football
> "Teams TBA"
> ...


Yeah, that's what I'm showing also.


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## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> Good question. I still show TBA for NBC tonight. Info button is wrong too, of course.


Your right it shows TBA.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

The other interesting thing is this. While going through "troubleshooting" with Tivo to confirm this issue, I rebooted and then even went through guided setup again with it. Since then, I've now had to reboot both a mini and a Premier because they could not play content from that unit until they were rebooted. My Tivos are on static IPs so I fail to understand why a reboot of the other units would be necessary. This is not typical of reboots in my experience, other than perhaps the typical Tivo crazy and unpredictable behavior with respect to network communications in general.... I mean to say that there are many times I decide to go ahead and reboot a unit because frankly it starts doing unpredictable things, maybe responds slowly, etc. A reboot typically helps - if it can be helped.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

wmhjr said:


> That is still what I'm seeing on every one of my units.
> 
> NFL Football
> "Teams TBA"
> ...


Also, if you have an SP for "NFL Football" (New only), the NBC game won't record because the "New" flag isn't set, unlike all other live NFL games. I had to manually set the recording this morning.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> It's called sarcasm. I have no desire to record the other games or watch them if recorded. I DO desire to record the game I'm interested in and watch it later. Frankly, I was sarcastically comparing the Cleveland/Baltimore game to watch a soccer match. Don't care to watch either team, neither has any possibility of making the playoffs. However, the game I DID set to record would not have.
> 
> Edit: I guess the Ravens made it in with a Charger loss, but no matter. Still would never have watched a minute of the game.


I would call it hyperbole rather than sarcasm. I would venture to guess that _*most*_ fans want to record all 5 games.

I assume you have an ARWL for one team or the other.

BTW, every game covered nationally had potential playoff impact. And TiVo didn't seem to get _*any*_ of the schedule changes. Still has the early FOX game as [email protected] while it is actually the _*late CBS*_ game (which the guide still has as [email protected]) and the 1PM CBS game has no team info at all and is not "NEW".

The data for this stuff is all over the place. If you a do a search, the results have the correct information as does the guide in both kmttg and the TiVo app.

As far as the lack of a "NEW flag" - there is no such flag in the data the TiVo gets. Both the scheduler and the guide use the OAD to make that determination. The scheduler will ignore the OAD if the programId is missing and it will be recorded by a FRO SP since it _*might*_ be new. The problem in this case is the offending programs *have* a programId, so the OAD is assumed to be accurate. This constitutes a far more serious data problem than just the incorrect or missing participants since, as noted by humbb, it prevents it from being recorded by an FRO SP.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with you - pretty strongly.

1) You might guess that "Most" fans would want to record "all" games. I think you're way way way wrong, with no basis in fact for that one. 

2) It was sarcasm - not hyperbole - even if you do want to be a grammar critic. Sarcasm - conveying contempt - which is what I have for the Ravens/Browns game. Not to belittle any fans here, but obviously, as a Steelers fan I have no love for the Ravens in particular.

3) There is correct data all over the place - you are correct in that. Everywhere except - on the Tivo. Some people use the Tivo guide as their primary means of input. 

4) You would be incorrect in assuming that I have an ARWL for either team.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Also, you would be incorrect about Tivo not getting the changes. Tivo did in fact get the changes. I have confirmed - with Tivo - that on Tivos own systems, and on Tivo.com (which is using the same data/metadata obviously), the correct data is there.

What Tivo did NOT get was a successful and complete update to guide data on Tivo UNITS.

Furthermore, as an additional data point about connectivity....

I have now had to reboot my other Roamio Pro in order for it to be able to play content from the other Roamio Pro which Tivo support had me go through guided setup again. I now have only one unit (my last mini) which has not yet been rebooted (or tested). It seems as though the guided setup kills the ability for other units to play data from it until they are rebooted again.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with you - pretty strongly.
> 
> 1) You might guess that "Most" fans would want to record "all" games. I think you're way way way wrong, with no basis in fact for that one.


I await with bated breath _*your*_ supporting documentation.



wmhjr said:


> 2) It was sarcasm - not hyperbole - even if you do want to be a grammar critic. Sarcasm - conveying contempt - which is what I have for the Ravens/Browns game. Not to belittle any fans here, but obviously, as a Steelers fan I have no love for the Ravens in particular.


So how did it feel to get beat by Tim Tebow in the playoffs? 



wmhjr said:


> 3) There is correct data all over the place - you are correct in that. Everywhere except - on the Tivo. Some people use the Tivo guide as their primary means of input.


And I would rather have seen the Broncos stomp on the hated Raiders than watch the Falcons get pummeled by the Panthers. And I would also rather see the latter game than see "Americas Team"  beat up on the Redskins.



wmhjr said:


> 4) You would be incorrect in assuming that I have an ARWL for either team.


So why the heck are you practically foaming at the mouth about this? You knew about the change which is why you knew the guide data was inaccurate. Are you seriously contending that there are a lot of people who check the guide data every day to verify that the game they scheduled to record is still one that they want to see?


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> I await with bated breath _*your*_ supporting documentation.


Sorry, but you made the claim. No documentation necessary from me. I did not make the utterly illogical and baseless claim. You made it. Defend it.



lpwcomp said:


> So how did it feel to get beat by Tim Tebow in the playoffs?


Um, I don't play in the NFL. I didn't get beat by Tim Tebow. I just don't care for the Ravens in particular. Too much of a thug culture for me. My opinion.



lpwcomp said:


> And I would rather have seen the Broncos stomp on the hated Raiders than watch the Falcons get pummeled by the Panthers. And I would also rather see the latter game than see "Americas Team"  beat up on the Redskins.


Actually, I had no interest in any of the other games.



lpwcomp said:


> So why the heck are you practically foaming at the mouth about this? You knew about the change which is why you knew the guide data was inaccurate. Are you seriously contending that there are a lot of people who check the guide data every day to verify that the game they scheduled to record is still one that they want to see?


I'm in no way "foaming at the mouth" about this. Not even upset. For the record, you have a habit of assuming things....

I did NOT know about the change. I decided to double check, which is how I found the data was inaccurate. Had I not done so, I would not have discovered it. I made the mistake of trusting that the Tivo would correctly show guide data and correctly record the content I had selected to record. Fortunately, I did decide to check up on it because there have been some inconsistencies lately.

And I have no idea what you're talking about with contending that there are "a lot of people who check the guide data every day...." Where in the world did that come from? That being said, I do frequently check my "To Do" list against TheFutonCritic listings. This has saved me from missing a number of recordings that for various reasons the Tivo had not been going to execute - even though it should have.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

TiVo's website and zap2it (where TiVo gets their guide data) has been correct for several days. Generally, there is a small lead time (6-12 hours) for TiVo to push changes but this time it didn't for some reason. There was definitely some type of issue on TiVo's end pushing the changes. This was not the case of last minute changes not propagating since TiVo had them for several days.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Again, the issue here seems to be that while "changes" or "updates" were pushed, even the most recent data - or if you lit up a brand new Tivo and it got brand new data - would STILL not have the correct data. 

This was confirmed by wiping out a Roamio Pro - with Tivo Support - and then completely starting from scratch with a new Guided Setup. Selecting the provider all over again, having it load all new data, reconnect, etc. So it seems as though even the units are getting guide data loads and updates, for some reason these are not being sent to the Tivos. For the life of me, I can't figure out how the guide data process would be designed such that this could happen.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

It shows correctly under "Upcoming." I assume the Guide is incorrect info stored on the TiVo und Upcoming info comes from TiVo's servers?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Also, you would be incorrect about Tivo not getting the changes. Tivo did in fact get the changes. I have confirmed - with Tivo - that on Tivos own systems, and on Tivo.com (which is using the same data/metadata obviously), the correct data is there.
> 
> What Tivo did NOT get was a successful and complete update to guide data on Tivo UNITS.


A difference which makes no difference is no difference at all The fact that it was accurate on some TiVo _*server(s)*_ is not really relevant. If it doesn't make it to the TiVos, it is only a matter of intellectual curiosity as to why. Oh, I suppose it's also to avoid rebooting, clearing Program Information & To Do List, or whatever else some idiot TiVo CSR tells you that you need to do to fix the problem.



wmhjr said:


> Furthermore, as an additional data point about connectivity....
> 
> I have now had to reboot my other Roamio Pro in order for it to be able to play content from the other Roamio Pro which Tivo support had me go through guided setup again. I now have only one unit (my last mini) which has not yet been rebooted (or tested). It seems as though the guided setup kills the ability for other units to play data from it until they are rebooted again.


What the heck does that have to with the matter under discussion, which has nothing whatever to do with connectivity? Or do you wish to turn this into a general vent at TiVo? I assure you, there are plenty of existing threads for that.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

cherry ghost said:


> It shows correctly under "Upcoming." I assume the Guide is incorrect info stored on the TiVo und Upcoming info comes from TiVo's servers?


I believe that is correct.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> A difference which makes no difference is no difference at all The fact that it was accurate on some TiVo _*server(s)*_ is not really relevant. If it doesn't make it to the TiVos, it is only a matter of intellectual curiosity as to why. Oh, I suppose it's also to avoid rebooting, clearing Program Information & To Do List, or whatever else some idiot TiVo CSR tells you that you need to do to fix the problem.
> 
> What the heck does that have to with the matter under discussion, which has nothing whatever to do with connectivity? Or do you wish to turn this into a general vent at TiVo? I assure you, there are plenty of existing threads for that.


You really ought to reconsider your penchant for assumptions.

1) It does make a difference. It is NOT a matter of intellectual curiosity to somebody wanting to understand the possible root cause so as to be able to determine workarounds, other potential related issues, etc. It was not "some" Tivo servers.

2) It was not a routine CSR but it was a person that the issue was escalated to that I worked with.

3) I had no false illusions that the process would resolve the issue - however it COULD have. By blowing away guide data/re-running guided setup, it could have loaded all new guide data rather than simply looking for "updates" to existing data. The exercise was actually my willingness to help and diagnose the issue. Having executed this, and because we confirmed that the data in Tivos system did accurately reflect "good" data, this provided more concrete data for Tivo to use in working on preventing this in the future. You know, to help OTHER people?

4) I mentioned the issue of rebooting because it happened during this, and was odd. It was in no way a rant.

Like I said, you seem to have a real issue with making (false) assumptions..... Maybe a chill pill is in order for you....


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> A difference which makes no difference is no difference at all The fact that it was accurate on some TiVo _*server(s)*_ is not really relevant. If it doesn't make it to the TiVos, it is only a matter of intellectual curiosity as to why.


And actually, I'll even go so far as to illustrate why this is relevant, and your statement is (again) both inaccurate and illogical.

1) What this means is that a Tivo customer may be using their "app" to check guide data and believe all is OK because it is. However, the Tivo unit itself would have inaccurate data.

2) This creates a conflict then, if a person using that app rather than their Tivo, selects that content and creates a scheduled recording. We do not know what would happen then. That test has in fact not been done.

3) The same issue would be in place were the person doing this via Tivo.com rather than on the Tivo.

Understanding what HAS and what HAS NOT been provided correct, accurate data allows the user to work through it. It only makes sense to be educated about the nature of the issue. If you personally don't care, fine. But it is HARDLY irrelevant. By your own flawed logic, the only thing you care about is whether it works 100% or not. If it does not, you just ignore it and hope that the issue does not have any effect on another feature or process? Because that would be the only explanation.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

I only knew that the Panthers were playing because I turned to the local CBS affiliate (Channel 9, WNCT-Greenville, NC) at what turned out to be the end of the third quarter because I wanted to monitor the start time for 60 Minutes.

Yesterday or this morning I'd seen in the guide data on the TiVo that 60 Minutes was scheduled for 7:30PM EST and that there was some football game before that.

Well, I just checked the on-screen guide by going to Channel 9 and up arrowing and it has Oakland and Denver listed, starting at 4:25PM. That's on both an S2 DT and a 648, both on analog cable, if that makes any difference.

And the NFL game before that, at 1PM, it doesn't list any teams for, just says Football, Sports Event (CC)


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Sorry, but you made the claim. No documentation necessary from me. I did not make the utterly illogical and baseless claim. You made it. Defend it.


Which part of "at a _*guess*_" failed to impinge itself on your consciousness? I'd just like to see the "facts" you claim do not support it.



wmhjr said:


> Um, I don't play in the NFL. I didn't get beat by Tim Tebow.


Now who's being pedantic about grammar/syntax? You were the one who said you are Steelers fan. Referring to a fan as if they were the team is generally considered to be acceptable shorthand for "your team" or more precisely "the team of which you are a fan".



wmhjr said:


> Actually, I had no interest in any of the other games.


I sorta watched pieces of all of them. None very interesting.



wmhjr said:


> 'm in no way "foaming at the mouth" about this. Not even upset. For the record, you have a habit of assuming things....


Like assuming that you have no idea how the TiVo scheduler works?



wmhjr said:


> I did NOT know about the change. I decided to double check, which is how I found the data was inaccurate. Had I not done so, I would not have discovered it. I made the mistake of trusting that the Tivo would correctly show guide data and correctly record the content I had selected to record. Fortunately, I did decide to check up on it because there have been some inconsistencies lately.


And if the guide data had been updated after you scheduled the recording, the result would have been exactly the same.



wmhjr said:


> And I have no idea what you're talking about with contending that there are "a lot of people who check the guide data every day...." Where in the world did that come from? That being said, I do frequently check my "To Do" list against TheFutonCritic listings. This has saved me from missing a number of recordings that for various reasons the Tivo had not been going to execute - even though it should have.


Because even if the guide data had been updated, it's not going to have an effect on any existing scheduled recordings of NFL games. It would still have recorded the game that was on at that time, unless there no longer was one. In any case, it would not have automatically recorded the SNF game. _*That's*_ why I originally assumed that you had an ARWL.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> You really ought to reconsider your penchant for assumptions.
> 
> 1) It does make a difference. It is NOT a matter of intellectual curiosity to somebody wanting to understand the possible root cause so as to be able to determine workarounds, other potential related issues, etc. It was not "some" Tivo servers.
> 
> ...





wmhjr said:


> And actually, I'll even go so far as to illustrate why this is relevant, and your statement is (again) both inaccurate and illogical.
> 
> 1) What this means is that a Tivo customer may be using their "app" to check guide data and believe all is OK because it is. However, the Tivo unit itself would have inaccurate data.
> 
> ...


Nice. In the first, you ignored this:


> Oh, I suppose it's also to avoid rebooting, clearing Program Information & To Do List, or whatever else some idiot TiVo CSR tells you that you need to do to fix the problem.


which was part of the post that you quoted. The next post, you deleted it from the quote. That is reprehensible. I was not referring to what you went through during the initial analysis. I was referring to people who call in with the same problem after the root cause has been identified. Most TiVo CSRs, like most CSRs in general, have a checklist they go through and don't bother to find out whether or not the problem has already been identified and that there is nothing the user can do about it. On the other hand, if the user knows that it is a TiVo problem and that TiVo has admitted as much, he's not going to bother to call.

For someone that objects to my making assumptions, you sure make a lot of your own. You may not know what would have happened if you had scheduled the recording of SNF via TiVo.com. I do. As does anyone who has ever scheduled a recording under similar circumstances. The recording would have been scheduled.

Also, you mentioned earlier making a "manual" recording. I don't want to "assume" anything here, but please tell me that you don't mean an actual manual recording - date, time, channel, & duration.

If you're not really upset, why did you YELL in the thread title?

You prefaced your problems that led you to reboot everything with


> Furthermore, as an additional data point about connectivity....


Pardon me if I inferred that you thought guide data problem this was a connectivity problem. I couldn't see any other reason for it. Why would someone deliberately take their own thread off on a tangent?

Rather than assume anything, I will ask - prior to redoing guided setup, did you do a "Clear & Delete Everything" or even a "Clear Program Information & To Do List"?


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> Nice. In the first, you ignored this:
> 
> which was part of the post that you quoted. The next post, you deleted it from the quote. That is reprehensible. I was not referring to what you went through during the initial analysis. I was referring to people who call in with the same problem after the root cause has been identified. Most TiVo CSRs, like most CSRs in general, have a checklist they go through and don't bother to find out whether or not the problem has already been identified and that there is nothing the user can do about it. On the other hand, if the user knows that it is a TiVo problem and that TiVo has admitted as much, he's not going to bother to call.


BS. I ignored nothing. In the first post I included everything, including your comment about "some idiot CSR". The following post was intended to provide an explicit example of this. So, BS. You're now trying to twist your way out of the fact that you made an utterly illogical statement. Also, BTW, root cause has NOT been identified. Symptoms which will hopefully (maybe) lead Tivo to root cause have been identified. Some things have now been excluded. Furthermore, users who do not bother to call or report when they discover a defect are doing themselves and other users harm. Perhaps you don't understand how software defect management or release management works, however product managers prioritize defects based on criticality - and often - customer impact. If they don't hear "noise" about existing defects, those same defects often get moved down in priority and are not addressed. This is my opinion, however anybody encountering a relatively serious defect that could impact the reliability of recordings, who does not report them even if they have already been discovered, is doing a disservice to every single present and future Tivo customer.



lpwcomp said:


> For someone that objects to my making assumptions, you sure make a lot of your own. You may not know what would have happened if you had scheduled the recording of SNF via TiVo.com. I do. As does anyone who has ever scheduled a recording under similar circumstances. The recording would have been scheduled.


Wrong again, batman. I did not know, and frankly neither do you. That's what I said I didn't know and did NOT say it would create an issue. Because I stated facts - not assumptions, as you clearly continue to do. Unless you have explicit proof where there were clear conflicts between Tivo databases and Tivo units - even after going through everything up to a complete guided setup all over again, which was then confirmed with Tivo for that specific content at that time, and then setup the recording through Tivo.com, then you don't know. This is not an assumption. It is a statement of fact. You may have an OPINION as to what would happen. You do not KNOW what would happen unless you have gone through each of these specific data points. Frankly, based on your comments, I simply do not believe that you have.



lpwcomp said:


> Also, you mentioned earlier making a "manual" recording. I don't want to "assume" anything here, but please tell me that you don't mean an actual manual recording - date, time, channel, & duration.


By "Manual Recording" I meant going to the program guide, selecting the content which did NOT reflect the actual game, set it to record, with a buffer. By manual I meant over-riding what the program guide said was the correct game - which it still showed as being on CBS at 1pm instead of NBC at 8:20pm.



lpwcomp said:


> If you're not really upset, why did you YELL in the thread title?


Um, to get attention so that others who may have one of the games setup to record thinking it was OK, only to find later (too late) that they did not get the recording. You know, to help others - not just assume.



lpwcomp said:


> You prefaced your problems that led you to reboot everything with
> Pardon me if I inferred that you thought guide data problem this was a connectivity problem. I couldn't see any other reason for it. Why would someone deliberately take their own thread off on a tangent?


Seems obvious to me. These are the things that happened directly related to this issue. Given that I know there are other engineering oriented minds here that will often troubleshoot using the same logic patterns, I thought it was possible that others may have done something similar. I simply wanted to be thorough about the effects of the actions I took. Rebooting another device is no big deal - except for when that device is in the process of recording something. Telling people up front gives them the ability to proactively reboot when the device is not in use, rather than having to choose between killing a portion of an in process recording, or not allowing a family member to view remote content. If you felt it took the thread - that I started - off track - stop reading it. That simple.



lpwcomp said:


> Rather than assume anything, I will ask - prior to redoing guided setup, did you do a "Clear & Delete Everything" or even a "Clear Program Information & To Do List"?


I did a clear program information & to do list. While I was willing to help troubleshoot for Tivo, I was not willing to delete content. This is a Roamio Pro currently being at 53% storage capacity.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

lpwcomp said:


> Which part of "at a _*guess*_" failed to impinge itself on your consciousness? I'd just like to see the "facts" you claim do not support it.


The entire statement failed to impinge itself. It was frankly, IMHO, moronic. I simply cannot comprehend that a reasonable person would ever truly state that " I would venture to guess that most fans want to record all 5 games.". My response was " You might guess that "Most" fans would want to record "all" games. I think you're way way way wrong, with no basis in fact for that one". Perhaps you missed the part where I said "I think" and questioned your facts supporting the statement? If perhaps you had said "most die hard NFL fans who have Tivos with very large storage capacity and multiple tuners" I'd "possibly" give you a maybe. But probably not even then.

You want data? Sure.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/20...34-of-35-most-watched-shows-this-fall/227726/

Take a look where it says 205 million unique NFL viewers. Then look at viewers by date. It says they averaged 17.6 million viewers per game. Of those, obviously some significant percentage of the 17.6 million are followers of each team in that game. Using this data, it is surely not completely conclusive. However, if one were to come to even a preliminary conclusion, it would be that there is NO WAY the math would point to "most fans" recording "all games". Or even just "all 5 games".

More to the point, however, I was not stating that I had facts in opposition. I was stating that you had no facts to support your statement. That YOU have no basis in fact for the statement you made.



lpwcomp said:


> Now who's being pedantic about grammar/syntax? You were the one who said you are Steelers fan. Referring to a fan as if they were the team is generally considered to be acceptable shorthand for "your team" or more precisely "the team of which you are a fan".


No, just being honest. I'm a fan. I'm not on the field. I'm not even that huge of a fan to be honest. I enjoy the games, but am not crazed. The fact that even if I don't have other plans, I rarely watch a game live and have passed on going to a game is indicative. To me, it's entertainment and I appreciate the skills. It may be acceptable to you to refer to a fan as a team, but I think it's ridiculous. So?



lpwcomp said:


> Like assuming that you have no idea how the TiVo scheduler works?


I have no idea what you're talking about here.



lpwcomp said:


> And if the guide data had been updated after you scheduled the recording, the result would have been exactly the same.


Again, more (false) assumptions on your part. Usually, when guide data is updated and content is shifted or rescheduled, you don't see the same content in two places prior to the update as you did here. There was an explicit content title at 1pm on CBS. Then there was a "TBA" content title at 8:20pm on NBC. At the same very time. This is not typical. Frankly, at least speaking for myself, I've never seen it before. So no, your assumption of what the result would have been is nothing more than an unsubstantiated assumption.



lpwcomp said:


> Because even if the guide data had been updated, it's not going to have an effect on any existing scheduled recordings of NFL games. It would still have recorded the game that was on at that time, unless there no longer was one. In any case, it would not have automatically recorded the SNF game. _*That's*_ why I originally assumed that you had an ARWL.


Wrong again. You continue to make assumptions. Neither I nor you have the ability to see the metadata behind the scheduler to determine exactly what it would have done. In this case, it is abundantly clear that there is probably either some sort of mismatch in the metadata preventing the updates from being acknowledged by Tivo units, and/or there is a code issue in the query/update process of the same. Tivo does not yet know the root cause, and if they don't, I'm pretty confident you don't. If you don't know the root cause, stating that you know what "would have happened" is the height of arrogance.

However, had the guide data been updated, I would have expected at least the following to occur. Since the change in scheduling occurred fully a week prior, I would have expected that the game in question (had it been moved) would either simply reflect the new time/channel - OR it would have vanished from the To Do list. The first would have resulted in successful recording of the desired content. The second would have resulted in a user noticing that the scheduled recording had an issue earlier. This is if the recording was scheduled through the guide. OTOH, if the user scheduled it via a wish list using the team name, then had the update happened correctly, then the correct game would have been recorded. That is my opinion as to what would have happened. That does not make it conclusive.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

"Can't we all get along?"


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

The fact that you expected the scheduled recording to be either changed or removed if the guide data had been updated is telling. It doesn't work that way. You scheduled a recording of "NFL Football" at 4:25PM on whatever channel that is your local CBS affiliate. A change in the participants doesn't change that. The scheduler simply doesn't go to that level except for a wishlist. Your TiVo is still going to record it and it will _*not*_ schedule a recording of the game that you really wanted, which is at a different time on a different channel. What on earth makes you think otherwise?

It is not necessary to know the internals of TiVo s/w to know that if I do x, y will happen.

You have made massive assumptions about my level of experience and knowledge. I admit I misspoke about TiVo having found the root cause. They know that the guide data did not get properly updated on the TiVos even though it is correct on their servers. They don't know why. But they do know it is their problem and there is nothing the user can do about it. In addition, it is not necessary to know the root cause to know what would happen if I had scheduled the game to record via tivo.com. As far as the scheduler is concerned, you are scheduling a recording of the show "NFL Football" that is on at 8:25PM EST Sunday, December 28 2014 on a specific channel.

Of course it's not typical. NFL scheduling is atypical for week 17. The SNF game is not even "penciled in" and the decision about what game to cover can be made as late as 6 days prior. Normally, there is a game tentatively scheduled and the "flex" decision has to be made at least 12 days in advance. They also don't typically change the time and network for as many games as they did. If the Broncos had beaten the Bengals, they would have moved the Patriot game to 4:25 since the AFC #1 seed would have been still up in the air.

When you scheduled the recording of SNF, it wasn't "manual", nor were you "overriding" anything. It was exactly the same thing you did every week, schedule a recording of "NFL Football" at a specific time on a specific channel. Yes, in your mind you were scheduling a recording of the Steelers game, but that is not what the TiVo was doing. That's why people who want this handled automatically create an ARWL. Of course, it wouldn't have helped in this case.

When I said you knew about the change, you replied that you didn't know then proceeded to detail how you found out. IOW, you didn't know until you did. Well duh. Or are you saying that all you knew was that there was a difference in the schedule data and you had no idea why?

The currently available scheduling data for this coming Saturday is a mess. nfl.com has the "early"(4:35PM EST) game (Arizona at Carolina) on ESPN and the late (8:15PM EST) game (Baltimore at Pittsburgh) on NBC while zap2it has the early game (AFC or NFC Wild-Card Game: Teams TBA) on NBC and no late game at all. Unless the scheduling data is fixed, everyone will be forced to create actual manual recordings to record the Saturday games.

The data for the following Saturday is just as screwy. This is on the TiVo, not available at zap2it yet. It has two games at 4:30, one on NBC (AFC or NFC Divisional Playoff: Teams TBA) and one on FOX (NFC Divisional Playoff: Teams TBA) while nfl.com has the AFC game on NBC at 4:35 and the NFC game at 8:15 on FOX.

I have set up a test. I created an "All Channels" FRO SP on my Roamio Basic for "NFL Football". The three playoff games in the current schedule have been added to my To Do List, including the one that the schedule has on NBC but which nfl.com says is on ESPN. If/When the scheduling data is updated,l I expect this to change. I have also created an explicit recording of that game on my Roamio Pro to see what happens with it. It may simply keep the recording scheduled and record whatever is on during that time. I did the same on my THD to see if it behaves differently. I have to remember to re-schedule the two recordings on the THD that I had to cancel since both tuners were already allocated.

Thank you for answering my question about what you did prior to redoing guided setup. While I wouldn't have expected you to do a C&DE, the fact that you didn't means that, while in all likelihood the results would have been the same, we don't really know what would have happened with a brand new TiVo.

BTW, this problem affected every model TiVo, not just Roamios.

Just FYI, I have been doing s/w design and development for 41+ years, 17 of which was as an O/S analyst. I am on record as saying that IMNSHO, TiVos entire s/w design, development and testing process is deeply flawed.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I can't begin to say how much I strongly disagree with your assumptions. Suffice it to say, you've already reversed yourself more than once. Server vs all servers. Some clueless Tivo CSR vs who it really was. 

Even your fundamentally flawed description of how the scheduler works shows this. You have absolutely not the slightest idea how the data is marked for the NFL game. You make the flawed assumption that the ID of the event remains the same even if the participants change. We do not know that. You have no proof of that. 

You continue to mis-state and freely exchange the terms "data" vs "displayed information". Again - you have not the slightest idea what the data structure is. You have not the slightest idea what the query construction looks like. You have not the slightest idea what exactly triggers the changes.

Neither do I.

Suffice it to say that our credentials are likely quite similar - if in fact you're being honest. I have not the slightest idea what O/S you were/are an "O/S Analyst" for. If in fact you've been at this for 41 years, then you're most likely far more into legacy systems, probably going back to PLCs and perhaps mainframe (now Z) systems. Who knows? Who cares? Personally, I'm no more a fan of the (lack of) quality processes, and clear gaps between product specifications/design to specific use cases/test plans supporting real quality development. That has nothing to do with this discussion.

You jumped in here making a whole boatload of assumptions, that were clearly and totally wrong. I used the term "manual" and "over-ride" as ways to best describe what was done from a process perspective - not as an uber-technical discourse. 

So no, I made no assumptions about your (claimed) level of expertise. I simply posted clear information - including related issues that came up during the incident - in order to help people.

You, on the other hand, decided to pi$$ all over the conversation for whatever purpose I still cannot figure out. Good for you - you sure accomplished a lot! Right now, I'm just thankful I don't have any development resources in GA, so I don't need to worry if I've got somebody willing to assume and jump to conclusions, not to mention get in the way of trying to help other people out.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

It looks like it is more than just NFL Football that is not updating correctly. I am seeing the same issue with "The Tonight Show". It seems TiVo has a guide data issue on their end and is failing to update guide data correctly when new guide data appears. So any show that ships with generic guide data and subsequently gets updated will not get an update on our end.

Unfortunately, this will probably result in a lot erroneous recordings and failed wishlists.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I can't see a problem with The Tonight Show. However, TVguide.com indicates The Late Show is new on 1/5 but with a generic description. So far, everything meets my expectations. AFU


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> I can't see a problem with The Tonight Show. However, TVguide.com indicates The Late Show is new on 1/5 but with a generic description. So far, everything meets my expectations. AFU


Tonights episode of the Tonight Show has generic guide data but on zap2it it says "Shailene Woodley; Michael Shannon; Eric Church performs; Lenny Pickett sits in with The Roots."


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## akaussie (Aug 18, 2010)

I am 'glad' to see that others are experiencing this as well - so it's not an issue specific to me. Like the OP I noticed this guide data issue regarding the NFL games on Sunday - where zap2it and the Tivo iOS app had the correct data but my Roamio (via Charter Cable) or Premiere (via OTA) did not - even after repeated forced connections Sunday morning.
I've noticed it this evening as well with a repeat of Star Wars Rebels Disney XD, Roamio has generic data while the iOS app and zap2it listings have episode specific data.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

rainwater said:


> Tonights episode of the Tonight Show has generic guide data but on zap2it it says "Shailene Woodley; Michael Shannon; Eric Church performs; Lenny Pickett sits in with The Roots."


I see you The Tonight Show and raise you The Late Late Show on 1/5 that is correct description but not showing new in the guide but is new on Zap2It AND the To Do List. And it is _real_ new.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

I had a SP for the Comeback on HBO and I noticed that it had no description for the last episode. I checked Zap2It and my WMC listings and they had a description.
I think it was in the summer were the whole season of Ray Donovan had no description for the whole season. The description would show up a few days after each episode aired.
I never had this issue with TVGOS and I used that service for 15 years and never seen this happen.
This has been a constant issue with TiVo since I got them in the summer of 2013.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Maybe TiVo is training some new people who worked for Rovi?


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> Maybe TiVo is training some new people who worked for Rovi?


It would be nice if they did but those guys were laid off 2 years ago.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Why do you keep insisting that it requires an intimate knowledge of TiVo s/w internals to know how things work?

Do you think that NFL games have never been moved before, that a network has never changed which game will be shown in your area and made that change soon enough that it shows up in the guide but after I have already scheduled it?

I explained that I wasn't referring to the person with whom you dealt when I used the term "idiot CSR", but you continue to ignore that, even though it should have been obvious to anyone with a working brain even w/o that explanation.

You're both right and wrong. It was on mainframes but you're wrong about the "now Z".

Battery low on my pad, so gotta go now.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

TiVo says the issue should be fixed sometime today when they get an update from their guide data provider. I will check tonight and see if it gets fixed.


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## akaussie (Aug 18, 2010)

rainwater said:


> TiVo says the issue should be fixed sometime today when they get an update from their guide data provider. I will check tonight and see if it gets fixed.


That's good to hear. I sent a tweet yesterday to @TiVoSupport and they replied with:
"No, we do not have any additional information at this time, but we are aware of the discrepancy."


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Some amusing listings I currently see. On Ovation they have 2 hour blocks labeled as Movie. Of course there is also no description available. Checking Zap2It there is some hour long shows and a movie or two.
On SciFy the have the disaster flicks labeled as Holiday and not Science fiction. On Zap2It the shows are labeled correctly.

It looks like TiVo has not been getting listings from Tribune and they decided to wing it and do the listings themselves.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I wish to thank wmhjr for reporting this to TiVo and working them in the initial part of their RCA.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Jed1 said:


> It looks like TiVo has not been getting listings from Tribune and they decided to wing it and do the listings themselves.


Should we start calling it Gracenote?


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> Should we start calling it Gracenote?


Ah Yes speaking of Gracenote, I forgot that Sony sold this to Tribune.

Some reading material:
http://www.gracenote.com/
http://www.gracenote.com/case_studies/tivo/
http://www.gracenote.com/tms_and_gracenote_the_perfect_mix/
http://www.gracenote.com/tms_and_gracenote_faqs/


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

From what I can tell, Tribune is adding inaccurate data. If I look for updated data it shows in TiVo Search but shows for the wrong channel number. For instance, NFL Football for this coming saturday at 4:00pm on ESPN HD is missing in the guide. But a TiVo search for NFL Football shows it is airing on ESPNHD but for some reason it is showing ESPNHD for a completely wrong channel number.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

I too have noticed a few odd errors in the Tivo guide data while my Verzion DVR has been perfect. I can't believe I just said that. They both get their data from Gracenote. At least Verizon still does.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

Still a little early for all the NFL playoff data to be accurate. I'd give it another 48 hours.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

waynomo said:


> Still a little ear for all the NFL playoff data to be accurate. I'd give it another 48 hours.


Guide data for this weekend's NFL games are already on Tribune's zap2it. The issue is the data hasn't been fixed yet that is downloaded to our boxes. It is supposed to happen later today.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

The Saturday NFL game information is correct in the TiVo app and tivo.com. Still bad on the 4 TiVos I checked. zap2it changed in the last minutes and is now also correct.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Guide data seems to be much better today. I'm seeing lots of updated guide data.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

rainwater said:


> Guide data seems to be much better today. I'm seeing lots of updated guide data.


Maybe TiVo's check to Tribune cleared. It sort of looks like that's what happened.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> Maybe TiVo's check to Tribune cleared. It sort of looks like that's what happened.


Unlikely, since tivo.com had the correct information, except where it was also incorrect at zap2it.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

lpwcomp said:


> Unlikely, since tivo.com had the correct information, except where it was also incorrect at zap2it.


Yea I know as I was feebly attempting some lite hearted humor.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Speaking of jokes, after the repeat of Letterman tonight, there's a "new" _The Talk_ with a First Aired of 1/15/15. Now that's planning ahead.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Speaking of jokes, after the repeat of Letterman tonight, there's a "new" _The Talk_ with a First Aired of 1/15/15. Now that's planning ahead.


Sounds like your TiVo has a thiotimoline doped cpu.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> Speaking of jokes, after the repeat of Letterman tonight, there's a "new" _The Talk_ with a First Aired of 1/15/15. Now that's planning ahead.


TiVo possibly implementing the "flux capacitor". It's been an interesting holiday, first the listings are too late and missing recordings to now recording things that will happen in the future.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Speaking of jokes, after the repeat of Letterman tonight, there's a "new" _The Talk_ with a First Aired of 1/15/15. Now that's planning ahead.


I've seen future dates a few times.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

It only took hours to update the guide for next Sunday's playoffs. I guess TiVo got ahead this time.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> It only took hours to update the guide for next Sunday's playoffs. I guess TiVo got ahead this time.


TiVo doesn't really do anything. It is generally easy for the final 4 of the NFL playoffs as it is just two games (and no regional airings like regular season). The issue earlier was a bug in Tribune's guide data.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

Anyone have a problem recording "The Good Wife" last night? We ended up getting an episode of "Blue Bloods", although my program description shows The Good Wife. Here is my CBS (KPIXDT 705 in SF) Guide info for Sunday evening [1/15] beginning 7pm:

7pm Sixty Minutes [Generic program info]
8:01pm Sixty Minutes [First Aired 1/11/15 and "New" badge]
9pm Madam Secretary ["Chains of Command"/New badge]
10pm The Good Wife ["The Debate"/New badge]

I'm in the Pacific Time Zone, so generally unaffected by NFL programming displacements.
Can someone please figure out what happened here? Thank goodness for XOD, although we had to put up with all commercials.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

We didn't record that show, but we do have a season pass for Madam Secretary, and amazingly it recorded on time. (We're in the eastern time zone and CBS Sunday nights are usually screwed up because of sports junk.)


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

humbb said:


> Anyone have a problem recording "The Good Wife" last night? We ended up getting an episode of "Blue Bloods", although my program description shows The Good Wife. Here is my CBS (KPIXDT 705 in SF) Guide info for Sunday evening [1/15] beginning 7pm: 7pm Sixty Minutes [Generic program info] 8:01pm Sixty Minutes [First Aired 1/11/15 and "New" badge] 9pm Madam Secretary ["Chains of Command"/New badge] 10pm The Good Wife ["The Debate"/New badge] I'm in the Pacific Time Zone, so generally unaffected by NFL programming displacements. Can someone please figure out what happened here? Thank goodness for XOD, although we had to put up with all commercials.


I saw a similar issue that was really weird last night. I was looking in my "To Do" list and it showed Gotham in the list to be recorded but when I highlighted it the small picture and description of the show to the right in the menu showed the Pilot for Empire! I was like WTF?!?!?!

I kept going back and forth to make sure I wasn't going crazy and then when I selected it and brought up its own menu screen describing the show it showed all the info for Empire. When I went back to the list it showed Gotham again!

Then all of the sudden it totally morphed into only Empire as I watched it! 

So what the heck was THAT?


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

HarperVision said:


> I saw a similar issue that was really weird last night. I was looking in my "To Do" list and it showed Gotham in the list to be recorded but when I highlighted it the small picture and description of the show to the right in the menu showed the Pilot for Empire! I was like WTF?!?!?!
> 
> I kept going back and forth to make sure I wasn't going crazy and then when I selected it and brought up its own menu screen describing the show it showed all the info for Empire. When I went back to the list it showed Gotham again!
> 
> ...


Could be that your TiVo was still processing recently downloaded guide info.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

humbb said:


> Anyone have a problem recording "The Good Wife" last night? We ended up getting an episode of "Blue Bloods", although my program description shows The Good Wife. Here is my CBS (KPIXDT 705 in SF) Guide info for Sunday evening [1/15] beginning 7pm:
> 
> 7pm Sixty Minutes [Generic program info]
> 8:01pm Sixty Minutes [First Aired 1/11/15 and "New" badge]
> ...


Got both "Madam Secretary" and "The Good Wife". Haven't watched "The Good Wife" episode yet, but there is text at the beginning I saw while editing that says



> This episode was written and filmed prior to the grand jury decisions in Ferguson and Staten Island.


and



> All mentions of "Ferguson" are in reference to the events of August, 2014 after the shooting death of Michael Brown.


So maybe your local CBS affiliate decided it wasn't "sensitive" enough to one "side" or the other (or both). They would have had the "benefit" of reactions from Eastern and Central time zone viewers.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> Got both "Madam Secretary" and "The Good Wife".
> ...
> So maybe your local CBS affiliate decided it wasn't "sensitive" enough to one "side" or the other (or both). They would have had the "benefit" of reactions from Eastern and Central time zone viewers.


I thought about that last night but couldn't find any mention of this anywhere on the net. If that happened, I'm sure it would have made big news in the Bay Area.

BTW - does your Sunday guide match my CBS list ... including the two eps of 60 Minutes ending at 9pm? Any other TCF people in Northern CA have that lineup?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

waynomo said:


> Could be that your TiVo was still processing recently downloaded guide info.


I was kind of thinking that but it was in the early evening and my TiVo usually connects overnight. The strange thing is, we don't have Season pass nor did anyone set a recording for Empire, only Gotham. I had to manually cancel the recording for Empire.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

humbb said:


> I thought about that last night but couldn't find any mention of this anywhere on the net. If that happened, I'm sure it would have made big news in the Bay Area.


I think you mean "should have". 

You really should contact your local affiliate. If *CBS* had pulled the ep after the first showing, it would've affected everyone in the Mountain and Pacific time zones.



humbb said:


> BTW - does your Sunday guide match my CBS list ... including the two eps of 60 Minutes ending at 9pm? Any other TCF people in Northern CA have that lineup?


No, I'm in Eastern time zone so the game was scheduled from 4:30 to 8:01. "60 Minutes" at 8:01, "Madam Secretary" at 9:00 and "The Good Wife" at 10:00.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

I checked the TV listings in Sunday's San Jose Mercury News which had this for CBS:

7pm 60 Minutes
8pm Madam Secretary
9pm The Good Wife
10pm Blue Bloods ["The Job" - a repeat, which was first aired in 2012]

So it looks like Tribune never got the memo that the 10pm slot was to be filled by an old rerun on the West Coast, and there was only going to be one 60 Minutes episode shown at 7pm. My Tivo missed the 9pm airing of The Good Wife because it thought it would be on at 10pm. No political conspiracy; no pulling of the ep. I also have to believe that I'm not the only one who missed this recording and that others will be similarly disappointed.

Like I said, thank you XOD. I guess we have come to expect (although not necessarily accept) this during NFL playoffs when the schedule is in flux.


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