# TWC says they won't support TiVo S3??



## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

I am moving into the Raleigh area very shortly and planned on becoming a TWC customer so I could get a S3 as soon as it comes out and then I see this.....

TWC won't support TiVo S3



> Dear G***** C*****, TRACKING NUMBER: 88187 Inquiry: Just to confirm, you are saying that when the Series 3 Tivos are released, you will not be providing cablecards for Tivo Series 3 owners? Submitted: by gc****@**********.com
> 
> Response:Time Warner Cable of Raleigh does not provide support for or allow TIVO devices on our cable network. Time Warner Cable provides DVR service and equipment for customers that would like to record programs and watch them later. Cable Cards will only be installed on Cable ready, Cable Card slot available television sets. This policy is subject to change at the discretion of Time Warner Cable of Raleigh.


Hopefully TiVo is on top of this kind of crap....


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Okay, surely this is illegal and this is what everyone here will hark. I am interested to hear what TivoPony or any other tivo representative has to say....


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## jdmclemore (Jan 29, 2002)

Watching this thread closely....I think I'll call Comcast just for grins...


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

There have already been 1000 threads started about this subject and also the TIVO S3s inability to record from SDV. So, why a new thread now? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for TIVO officials to respond - they haven't yet in days.


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## Mavrick22 (Feb 7, 2006)

More discussion on this is located in this thread.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=309067&highlight=twc


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## JustAllie (Jan 5, 2002)




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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

BillyT2002 said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for TIVO officials to respond - they haven't yet in days.


I agree there are way too many threads on this topic. However TiVo did respond... directly to the FCC:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518400258



> TiVo then discussed the need to ensure that competitive entrant unidirectional digital cable products (UDCPs)  such as TiVos S3 device  continue to work with cable systems utilizing switched digital video technology. Specifically, TiVo expressed concern that if a cable operator distributes linear cable channels (apart from PPV and VOD) via switched digital technology, subscribers with a competitive entrant UDCP will not have access to the same channels as those subscribers leasing set-top boxes from the cable operator. Consequently, consumers will be hesitant to invest in UDCPs. This concern, which TiVo has heard from a number of customers, is captured by the attached e-mail, copies of which were distributed at the meetings. TiVo emphasized that it is not against cables use of switched digital technology, but simply wants those cable operators adopting the technology to take whatever actions necessary to ensure that subscribers with competitive entrant UDCPs have equal access to the same digital content offerings available to subscribers with MSO-leased set-top boxes.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

davezatz said:


> I agree there are way too many threads on this topic. However TiVo did respond... directly to the FCC:
> http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518400258


Dave - Exactly right....and it's MUCH more important they respond to the FCC than to a bunch of whiners on a forum  The FCC is the only regulatory body that can do something about it.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

The response over at the Consumer Forum indicates that TW WILL install in CableCARD-ready TV.

What about CableCARD ready TV's with DVRs?

My bet is that the installer wouldn't even KNOW that a TV would have a DVR built-in.

Seems to me it'll be a lot more difficult for TW to keep straight what they do and don't support rather than just sending out an "installer" (what do they DO anyway? stick it in a slot and charge you an hourly rate?) whenever someone requests one, period.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I love that they say they don't allow TiVo's on their network.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

BillyT2002 said:


> There have already been 1000 threads started about this subject and also the TIVO S3s inability to record from SDV. So, why a new thread now? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for TIVO officials to respond - they haven't yet in days.


There does happen to be a thread about this already in the HDTiVo area, but this has nothing to do the SDV. This has to do with TWC claiming they won't provide a cablecard for a Series 3 TiVo.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

Well, here's Comcast's response to my question about getting CableCards for a Series 3 TiVo:



> Dear *****,
> 
> Thank you for contacting Comcast. I am glad that you have written to us regarding your inquiry.
> 
> ...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Seems like Comcast is confusing the Series 3 with their upcoming TiVo release that runs on their own Motorola hardware.

I don't get why everyone is making such a big deal about what one CSR said in response to a question about a product which hasn't even been released yet. TWC is *required by law* to provide CableCARDs at the customer's request. They can't pick and choose which CableCARD devices they support. The Series 3 TiVo is on the list of host devices approved by CableLabs. If they require that you tell them what the CableCARDs are going to installed into then just give them the model number, which is TCD648250A.

Dan


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Nah, I don't think Comcast is confusing anything. Sounded like a form letter to me with "TiVo Series 3" replacing [product customer is asking about, assuming it's one of our own products] 

As for TW problem... I'm concerned... only because whether it's illegal or not, it still may be a fight.

Same situation: I am unable to get Adelphia to figure out why I cannot receive local HD channels in clear QAM. Sure, they HAVE to by law. Try finding a customer service rep who knows that.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Seems like Comcast is confusing the Series 3 with their upcoming TiVo release that runs on their own Motorola hardware.


Yes, and when I corrected him he said basically "we have no information", but didn't seem bothered at the prospect of a CableCard for a third-party DVR.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I don't expect this to be a big problem. I think that original CSR was simply confused and/or missinformed. But we wont really know for sure until the S3 units hit the streets and people start ordering CableCARDs for them.

Personally I'd be more worried about installation delays. When the S3 units are released there is likely to be an initial flood of orders for CableCARDs which could cause shortages in the first couple of months. 

Dan


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> ...When the S3 units are released there is likely to be an initial flood of orders for CableCARDs which could cause shortages in the first couple of months.
> 
> Dan


Honestly? I'd like to believe there would be a "flood of orders", but realistically, at the anticipated price for the S3, I don't think there will be any kind of "flood" in any cable markets...except, perhaps, in a couple of the major U.S. cities.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I'm sure some kind of "1 CableCard per household policy" will be touted by some cable companies claiming they have a shortage of them. For a long time such policies were in effect for digital & DVR boxes from my cable company so I wouldn't be at all surprised to find I can only get hold of 1. I suppose even though they are obliged by FCC to provide CableCard on request I doubt there are specific timeframes specified so cable companies may very well drag their feet such that it may take a long time before you can even get 1.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

BillyT2002 said:


> There have already been 1000 threads started about this subject and also the TIVO S3s inability to record from SDV. So, why a new thread now? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for TIVO officials to respond - they haven't yet in days.


Ah...but this is the first time I've heard they WILL provide cable cards for a TV set, just not for a TiVo.

That's not legal.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> Honestly? I'd like to believe there would be a "flood of orders", but realistically, at the anticipated price for the S3, I don't think there will be any kind of "flood" in any cable markets...except, perhaps, in a couple of the major U.S. cities.


I don't expect the S3 to be a huge seller or anything. I just expect there to be a surge at the beginning. And with each unit needing 2 CableCARDs I could definitely see there being shortages and/or delays in certain areas.

Heck when I talked to my cable company about CableCARDs they said that under normal circumstances it can take 10-12 days to get the cards in stock and have them installed. So who knows what will happen if you live an area with a lot of TiVo fans. 

Dan


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## Scott Atkinson (Jan 19, 2004)

Dan -

Sorry for the thread creep, but a question:

At some point between now and '09, it's my understanding TW will go all digital, reclaiming the bandwidth now being used to provide folks like me with analog cable, and will likely down convert for us analog holdouts with a box.

There is nothing in that which will preclude me from continuing to use my existing S1 and S2 Tivos, right? I understand this is an asked and answered question, but I also know things change.

Scott A.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I highly recommend anyone who cares about this issue to send an e-mail to [email protected] and blind carbon copy [email protected] on it.

Here is the e-mail that I sent: (I'm still waiting to hear back, but will post my response if I get one).

*Cablecard and SDV...*
Bill Tello
To: '[email protected]'
Bcc: '[email protected]'
___________________________________________________________

Hello:

My name is William Tello, I'm a 43 year-old software developer and I live with my wife Ellen in Waterville, Maine.

I am currently a DirecTV/NDS customer and I've owned a DirecTIVO and a standalone TIVO (with real TIVO software in them) for a long time now. I cannot rave enough about how much my wife and I love TIVO DVR(s). We no longer watch "live" television at all and have many "first run only" season passes set up to view our favorite programming.

We just purchased a Sony KD-34XBR960 widescreen high-definition television last year and we have a Hughes HR10-250 high-definition DirecTIVO receiver to run it.

The problem with DirecTV is now that Rupert Murdoch/NDS has taken over, they are moving away from DVR(s) with TIVO software built-in, in favor of their own prorietary DVR(s). Their high-definition line-up is very limited for $10.00 per month and their high-definition channels are broadcast in HD-LITE which is 1280x768p and not true high-definition which is 1920x1080i. They are also launching new satellites with Ka-Band/MPEG-4 capabilities which will not be compatible with the Hughes HR10-250 DirecTIVO DVR which I currently have. Coming this Fall, they are going to offer in my area, high-definition locals on a new DirecTV proprietary high-definition DVR (which if it based on their R15 model I hear is as buggy as many cable television provided DVR(s)). I'm not too excited about that.

Also, my area in Maine is an Adelphia territory and I've heard soon to become a Time-Warner area. At first I was excited about that; especially because I know that the TIVO Series 3 (which can record from two cablecards at once) is soon to be released and I though it would be great to use a TIVO S3 with Time-Warner cable. I thought that I would probably run one TIVO S3 with two cablecards and one TWC DVR for vide-on-demand and all of that within my A/V system.

Since then I have learned that Time-Warner is testing switched digital video in a few select markets and has plans to roll SDV out by the end of the year and then convert most (if not all) digital programming to use SDV in 2007. I have also learned that the TIVO S2 cannot record SDV programming (or even see it for that matter). I have also learned that TWC in Raleigh, North Carolina is refusing to even give cablecards to people for use in third-party devices.

I'm also aware that TIVO has filed with the FCC regarding the SDV issue and has asked the FCC to require the cable vendors to keep all original, broadcast and cable progrmming available on cablecard (and not using SDV). I really hope the FCC gets involved in this.

Anyway, I really wanted to speak with someone high-enough within the Time-Warner organization who has a knowledge of what I'm talking about and maybe can put some better perspective on it for me.

Is there any way I will be able to effectively use a TIVO S3 with TWC and still record high-definition and standard-definition, digital programming? I hope you have a better prognosis for this than what I am learning in tivocommunity.com, dbsforums.com, dbstalk.com, avsforums.com and satelliteguys.us.

So, far it looks like my best bet might be to remain a DirecTV customer, but I'm hoping that is not the case.

I won't go back to wathcing "live" television and have only three requirements for a DVR:

1. It must relibaly record all selected programming. (TIVO is about 99% - I can understand if the President addresses the nation or some other programming pre-empts my favorite programming)

2. It must reliably record only "first run" episodes of a season pass when instructed.

3. It must reliably fast-forward over commercial advertising.

I hope to hear back from you.

Best Regards,
Bill Tello
[email protected]


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

BillyT2002 said:


> There have already been 1000 threads started about this subject and also the TIVO S3s inability to record from SDV. So, why a new thread now? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for TIVO officials to respond - they haven't yet in days.


My apologies for ruining your life ( or maybe just your day ). I did a search in this forum and did not see a thread about it, forgive me! Seeing that it has 20 response, it must be of some interest...and 1000 threads? Please...


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

^^^ No skin off my back... take a load off and get off me - would ya?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Scott Atkinson said:


> There is nothing in that which will preclude me from continuing to use my existing S1 and S2 Tivos, right? I understand this is an asked and answered question, but I also know things change.


Standalone TiVos can use a cable box instead of it's internal tuner if need be, so they should continue to work just fine.

Dan


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

BillyT2002 said:


> ^^^ No skin off my back... take a load off and get off me - would ya?


It seems to me like you were the ******* first and shouldn't be telling him to get off your back!


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

ah30k said:


> It seems to me like you were the ******* first and shouldn't be telling him to get off your back!


Perception very rarely reflects reality, son. If you truly thought that, then all I can say is you read the intention of my original post in a manner in which it was not meant. It seems people give no credit for smilies today too.


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

Does anyone know if an installed CableCARD becomes "married" to its host device? In other words, could I get a CC installed and activated in my TV and then move it to a TiVo? Not that it'd solve all the problems or anything, due to the need for two in the TiVo, but I was just wondering.

E


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

etsolow said:


> Does anyone know if an installed CableCARD becomes "married" to its host device? In other words, could I get a CC installed and activated in my TV and then move it to a TiVo? Not that it'd solve all the problems or anything, due to the need for two in the TiVo, but I was just wondering.
> 
> E


It is registered to a specific device during the activation process. You cannot move it back and forth without re-registering with the MSO.


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

ah30k said:


> It is registered to a specific device during the activation process. You cannot move it back and forth without re-registering with the MSO.


I wonder if you could play dumb... Call your cable tech support and say "My CableCARD stopped working, could you re-hit it? Here's the device ID."


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

one one of my tvs with a cable card slot the cable card reader went bad and sony came and installed a new one... I was able to call the cable company cox and get it reactivated (new reader= new device) of course customer service was no help so i had to get to the cable card support people who walked me through all the screens and getting them the numbers they need


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

aztivo said:


> one one of my tvs with a cable card slot the cable card reader went bad and sony came and installed a new one... I was able to call the cable company cox and get it reactivated (new reader= new device) of course customer service was no help so i had to get to the cable card support people who walked me through all the screens and getting them the numbers they need


[mr. burns]
Excellent!
[/mr. burns]


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

BillyT2002 said:


> I won't go back to wathcing "live" television and have only three requirements for a DVR:
> 
> 1. It must relibaly record all selected programming. (TIVO is about 99% - I can understand if the President addresses the nation or some other programming pre-empts my favorite programming)
> 
> ...


Why did you give them this "out"? Their DVR does all those things.

And why are you *blind* CC'ing their CEO? No need to hide the fact you're CC'ing him.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> TWC is *required by law* to provide CableCARDs at the customer's request. They can't pick and choose which CableCARD devices they support. The Series 3 TiVo is on the list of host devices approved by CableLabs. If they require that you tell them what the CableCARDs are going to installed into then just give them the model number, which is TCD648250A.
> 
> Dan


Yes, but companies like TWC have an army of lawyers whose only job is to try to slant the playing field in their favor. I would not be surpried to find that TWC is petitioning the FCC for a rule change or some similar ploy to keep 3rd party DVRs off their networks. They could cite restraint of trade I'm sure.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I don't get why everyone is making such a big deal about what one CSR said in response to a question about a product which hasn't even been released yet.


Sounds like a bunch of people trying to scare away S3 sales with FUD.

Why don't you just close these down?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Because then people will think I'm trying to hide something. (a lot of people assume I work for TiVo because of my moderator status) I'd rather have an open discussion where we can thwart some of this FUD and make people see it for what it really is.

Dan


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Because then people will think I'm trying to hide something. (a lot of people assume I work for TiVo because of my moderator status) I'd rather have an open discussion where we can thwart some of this FUD and make people see it for what it really is.
> 
> Dan


But, Dan....your picture....you ARE a TiVo....right?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> Sounds like a bunch of people trying to scare away S3 sales with FUD.
> 
> Why don't you just close these down?


Hardly, if you simply take a look at the recent TiVo filing with the FCC, TiVo is just as scared as the we consumers are. Shutting down discussions is sticking you head in the sand and hoping that all will be well. Pretending that these few SDV trials are the only ones likely to be impacted is only trying to make yourself sleep better. I believe every major MSO except Comcast will be rolling out SDV over the next year or so.

I love my Tivo and will likely get an S3 anyway since I am fortunate enough (God, I can't believe these words are coming out of my fingers) to live in Comcast country.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I completely respect that Dan. Again I want TIVO to suceed and would do anything to have a TIVO S3 that would record via cablecard any high-definition and standard-definition broadcast and cable channel that I can currently record using my HR10-250 and DirecTV. 

I'm really hoping TWC's SDV testing fails miserably.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

HDTiVo said:


> Sounds like a bunch of people trying to scare away S3 sales with FUD.


There is no FUD. I very, very much want to purchase a Series 3 TiVo. But I worry that the cable companies will make it difficult and/or inconvenient, and possibly impossible to do so. I'm even more worried now that I will be a TimeWarner customer in the near future. (Comcast is leaving Texas)

The worries are waranted. Cable companies don't want you to use something other than their box. It seems TW is hell bent on making sure that will happen.

This isn't anti-TiVo, it's anti-cable company, and in this case, anti TW.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

OK, you guys are right.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

jsmeeker said:


> There is no FUD. I very, very much want to purchase a Series 3 TiVo. But I worry that the cable companies will make it difficult and/or inconvenient, and possibly impossible to do so.


They must have a REALLY tight grip on your wallet....


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I got a phone call back from Joan Gillman's (at Time Warner) direct manager today. I feel much better now as he assured me of a few things:

1. Cablecards will definitely be available to customers for use with the TIVO series 3 and as many as the customer needs. (I didn't discuss pricing with him because frankly I'm not concerned about pricing for entertainment at all - I'm always willing to pay whatever it takes for exactly what I want).

2. He has told me that the CSR(s) that I talked to, did not have the correct information to give me. He said that all of the currently available programming in a local TWC channel lineup, be it: analog, digital, standard-definition or high-definition will remain available to the cablecard and will not use SDV.

3. He assured me that when SDV is deployed it is only going to be for new programming only - anything not currently on a local TWC channel lineup. (That is a huge relief - so I might just buy a TIVO S3 now).

4. He informed me that TWC will be adding a lot of new high-defnition channels to their local channel lineups in 2007 and encourage me to give one of their DVR(s) a try, if I want to receive any of that programming. He is convinced that the DVR software which they will offer in my area will be reliable enough for my needs.

5. He told me that I have nothing to lose by trying TWC as I could always go back to DirecTV if I was unhappy.

So, I retract everything I said earlier regarding the TIVO Series 3 being useless with TWC.
I trust this guy as he was high enough up the ladder in the corporate offices and knowledgeable enough about TIVO and DVR(s) to gain my trust.

Again - it has never been my intention to spread FUD about TIVO. I am still using a Phillips 14 hour standalone TIVO and an HR10-250 and I also own a decomissioned HDVR2 (which still works, but is not in use). I love TIVO and always will. I was just really happy about the TIVO series 3 before I learned about the SDV problems and then really dissappointed about SDV.

I have a far brighter outlook again.


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## d_anders (Oct 12, 2000)

BillyT2002 said:


> 3. He assured me that when SDV is deployed it is only going to be for new programming only - anything not currently on a local TWC channel lineup. (That is a huge relief - so I might just buy a TIVO S3 now).
> 
> 4. He informed me that TWC will be adding a lot of new high-defnition channels to their local channel lineups in 2007 and encourage me to give one of their DVR(s) a try, if I want to receive any of that programming. He is convinced that the DVR software which they will offer in my area will be reliable enough for my needs.


I guess I'm a little more pessimistic. "when SDV is deployed it is only going to be for new programming only"..."TWC will be adding a lot of new high-defnition channels to their local channel lineups in 2007".[/QUOTE]

Sorry to break the news, but what do you think SDV is for? SDV is a major bandwidth saving method so that cable companies can pump many user selected HDTV channels on the same frequency. SDV is going to be a cable card 1.x killer. Luckily Tivo is positioning the S3 to cover cable card 2.0 when it's ratified, but either way, it's beginning to look like an uphill battle for Tivo and TWC.

What I don't get is TWCs short-side thinking with TiVo. Usage of Series 3 TiVos = lower churn rate for cable. What's worse? Losing $10 in monthly review from a customer that may be using internet , cable, and telephone, or losing that customer revenue altogether?

http://www.cisco.com/application/pdf/en/us/guest/netsol/ns457/c654/cdccont_0900aecd80458e33.pdf


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

d_anders said:


> Luckily Tivo is positioning the S3 to cover cable card 2.0 when it's ratified...


They are? My understanding is that the S3 specs we've seen indicate that it will work with CableCARD 1.0 single-stream and multi-stream cards, not CableCARD 2.0 at all.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

d_anders said:


> Luckily Tivo is positioning the S3 to cover cable card 2.0 when it's ratified, but either way, it's beginning to look like an uphill battle for Tivo and TWC.


You are misinformed! The Series 3 TiVo is a unidirection device ONLY. It will support multi-stream CableCARDs, so you can get dual tuners from a single card. But it will NOT even have the hardware required to support bidirectional communication, which is required for support of SDV and CableCARD 2.0.

Dan


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

d_anders - You can be pessimistic if you want. Trust me I'm not anyone who would normally be taking extra time to sqelch pessimism.

(In my first twenty years I was an optimist, in my next twenty I was "the drowning optimist", now that I'm 43, in general I'm the "pessimist with a positive attitude", when I'm 60+ until when I die, I'm fully expecting to be the most hardened, cynical, vocal pessimist going. If anyone else ever has to take care of me (because I can no longer take care of myself), then "God Help Them!")
_______________________________________________________________________

In my last post I was merely relaying to all of you the details of my conversation with someone in overseeing the SDV testing going on at TWC. He was a very cordial guy and told me everything I stated above. He was also someone who was into and uses DVR technology himself. He sounded like a bigger geek than me and I am a software developer who used to work for Borland on the Borland C++ compiler for several years in the early 1990s.

Sure, maybe he was not being truthful with me. I have no way of knowing beyond the fact that he sounded honest, explained to me that Joan Gillman (who is an executive in charge of advanced hardware at TWC - you can google her - that's where I found her name to begin with) works for him. I have no reason(s) not to believe him and can't see the point to why he'd even bother to call me back to outright lie to me.

So, I'm keeping an open mind and optimistic right now about what TWC is really doing with SDV.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ah30k said:


> Hardly, if you simply take a look at the recent TiVo filing with the FCC, TiVo is just as scared as the we consumers are....


Wow....I didn't know a company could be "scared". I seriously doubt TiVo is "scared". Obviously, they are passing on some of their customers' concerns, but I really don't think "scared" is an appropriate term.


BillyT2002 said:


> ....So, I retract everything I said earlier regarding the TIVO Series 3 being useless with TWC....


GEESH.....finally.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

BillyT2002 said:


> 3. He assured me that when SDV is deployed it is only going to be for new programming only - anything not currently on a local TWC channel lineup. (That is a huge relief - so I might just buy a TIVO S3 now).


You're buying the S3 NOW? When did it come out??


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## rorion (Jul 26, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> Wow....I didn't know a company could be "scared". I seriously doubt TiVo is "scared". Obviously, they are passing on some of their customers' concerns, but I really don't think "scared" is an appropriate term.


I've found that the companies I've worked for were always at their best when they were scared. When the competition wasn't about to destroy us, we could get rather complacent.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

rorion said:


> I've found that the companies I've worked for were always at their best when they were scared. When the competition wasn't about to destroy us, we could get rather complacent.


"Companies" don't get scared; people do. It's a personal emotion.


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## rorion (Jul 26, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> "Companies" don't get scared; people do. It's a personal emotion.


I've never worked at a company that wasn't made of people. And the better companies I've worked at made the fears (concerns if it sounds better to you ) of the top management visible to all of the employees. Sometimes it's a first level engineer that ends up solving the big problem.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> You're buying the S3 NOW? When did it come out??


Ha ha - very funny - you're a real comedian.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> "Companies" don't get scared; people do. It's a personal emotion.


What is your point? You know exactly what we are talking about yet you insist on posting this anal crap. Let me re-state in a manner that might stand up to your level of accuracy. 'In my opinion, based upon the latest FCC filing on this topic, TiVo as a company (represented by the elected board, who are humans) is concerned about this topic enough that it considers SDV a material risk to the future revenue. I would not be very suprised to see this explicity called out in future 10-k SEC filings as risks. Additionally, I would venture a guess that based upon the e-mail included in the FCC filing that many individuals are scared that SDV may have a material impact on the company's success'

Bierboy, is this OK to post, or is is another Ckicken-Little posting that you are getting tired of?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ah30k said:


> What is your point? You know exactly what we are talking about yet you insist on posting this anal crap. Let me re-state in a manner that might stand up to your level of accuracy. 'In my opinion, based upon the latest FCC filing on this topic, TiVo as a company (represented by the elected board, who are humans) is concerned about this topic enough that it considers SDV a material risk to the future revenue. I would not be very suprised to see this explicity called out in future 10-k SEC filings as risks. Additionally, I would venture a guess that based upon the e-mail included in the FCC filing that many individuals are scared that SDV may have a material impact on the company's success'
> 
> Bierboy, is this OK to post, or is is another Ckicken-Little posting that you are getting tired of?


My, my...someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Post away...you're now on my ignore list.


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

BillyT2002 said:


> I got a phone call back from Joan Gillman's (at Time Warner) direct manager today.


Sorry to be a pessimist again *chuckle* but I wonder why it was a phone call and not an email. Suffice it to say, they can still do whatever they want with SDV and you will have no recourse because you can never prove that anyone from TWC said anything otherwise.

However, it's good news for all of you in TWC land, if it's true.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

ClassicX - You are correct, they called me, I did not record the call as I would have never thought to anyway, they can say one thing to me and then do whatever they want - I could never prove anything as I don't have anything from TWC in writing.

Who cares anyway. They could have ignored me. A busy executive from within their organization actually took time out of his schedule to give me a call and put to rest my doubts about said company and practices and I'm not even a custome, nor do they even own my territory yet (but they will soon). This speaks a bunch to me. This is what I consider good customer service and as a result I will give them a try now where I had no plans to before they got back to me. I both appreciate and respect their effort in my regard.

Here is the worst case scenario now. I buy a TIVO S3 and switch to Time Warner (of course my DirecTV dish stays on my roof until I'm certain I'm staying with Time Warner and probably until a few years beyond that when I re-roof the house). I get two cablecards and try one of their own DVRs. If I find out later that I was lied to and my TIVO S3 becomes obsolete, then c'est la vie. I have learned my lesson, unless I absolutely love the TWC DVR as much as I did my TIVO, I quit TWC and go back to DirecTV, get one of their new high-definition DVRs and use that in conjunction with the HR10-250 which I already own. (At that point the TIVO S3 is decommissioned, but at I'll still feel good about having paid TIVO some extra money to help them stay afloat. I also have some friends in Comcast country who would most likely buy the TIVO S3 from me if that were the case and I'd recoup most of the cost that way. If I'm locked into a commitment with TIVO on the S3, then I'll probably just pay it off.)

The money has never really been the issue for me.


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## VOLFAN (Nov 27, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> My, my...someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Post away...you're now on my ignore list.


As you're on mine.  LOLOLOLOL


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

BillyT2002 said:


> ClassicX - You are correct, they called me, I did not record the call as I would have never thought to anyway, they can say one thing to me and then do whatever they want - I could never prove anything as I don't have anything from TWC in writing.


Do you think he would have been willing to put their SDV limits in writing if you asked? If I were in your situation, I would have asked. What could it hurt.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

What's the point of asking? What would I do with the written documentation if TWC were to default on what they told me?

Again, I respect and appreciate the fact that someone there in executive management and who was technical at the same time actually took the time out of their busy schedule to call me at all and answer all of the questions that I had and put my concerns at rest. They didn't have to and because they did, they will have gained a new customer once everything is situated in my area and TIVO is ready and all. I will now give them a try where I wasn't going to before they called me.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Agreed.

No need to put anything in "writing". It would have proved nothing. And they still could have changed their mind.

It's not like something in writing from a customer service rep that you could forward to a higher-level exec. This WAS a high level exec!

Major props to the guy for taking the time to call and straighten this out. His actions and words make me feel much more confident to buy a Series3 maybe in the future. (I'd only be using it for analog cable and HD OTA so don't know if it's worth the expense).


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

Got this nice response to my email into TWC Executive chain.....
I removed name and phone number since it was a personal note to me.

I apologize for all the confusion and possible miscommunication. We will and do support products that require cable cards, as long as they are cable lab certified. As for your question if we can handle the demand, we have always prided ourselves on being able to deliver to our customers whichever product they desire within a timely fashion. As for self install or we will require a truck roll, today we roll a truck and do not charge for the cable card to be installed.

I hope I have addressed your concerns. Please feel free to contact me directly with any more questions at 919-573-XXXX.

With best regards,


XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 

VP of Customer Care
Time Warner Cable
Raleigh Division


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Does anyone have a good explenation as to *why* a truck roll is required to insert a card in a slot, and phone in a card/serial number pair?

If the customer requests it, sure. But for those of us who doesn't require it - why require that we spend everyone's time and money on a truck roll? 

-Ken


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

kdmorse said:


> Does anyone have a good explenation as to *why* a truck roll is required to insert a card in a slot, and phone in a card/serial number pair?
> 
> If the customer requests it, sure. But for those of us who doesn't require it - why require that we spend everyone's time and money on a truck roll?
> 
> -Ken


So they can charge you money to roll a truck.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I expect it's at least in part because it's a new product and lots of consumers THINK they don't need help, but really will.

It's a better customer experience if (for free) someone will roll to your house to do it for you vs. you getting upset that you don't understand (but thought you would) and then having to wait extra days because you have to schedule a call.

And training the customer service phone reps is probably costly / a lost cause.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

kdmorse said:


> Does anyone have a good explenation as to *why* a truck roll is required to insert a card in a slot, and phone in a card/serial number pair?


I asked a Comcast guy about CableCard installs when I ran into him at lunch the other day. He said that the CableCard installs that they've done so far have not generally been easy. Theoritically, it should be just a quick phone call but that's not how most of the installs have been working out. I didn't really understand why they were having problems or what they were just that it's working out to be more complicated than it sounds.

Interestingly, our local Comcast office does not require a truck roll. You can go down to the local Comcast outlet and pick up the cards yourself.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

_I expect it's at least in part because it's a new product and lots of consumers THINK they don't need help, but really will._

Fair point. However - the quality of installer (Comcast) they've sent me in the past has not exactly endeared me to their them. Based on past experiences - I somehow feel better off flying solo.

-Ken


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## mfogarty5 (Apr 27, 2006)

Our discussion made it to engadget!

http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/28/time-warner-does-doesnt-support-cablecard-tivos/


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

BillyT2002 said:


> 4. He informed me that TWC will be adding a lot of new high-defnition channels to their local channel lineups in 2007 and encourage me to give one of their DVR(s) a try, if I want to receive any of that programming. He is convinced that the DVR software which they will offer in my area will be reliable enough for my needs.


Tell him you'll be glad to subscribe to the new HD channels if your Series 3 Tivo can record them ...


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## stevereis (Feb 24, 2006)

cwoody222 said:


> I expect it's at least in part because it's a new product and lots of consumers THINK they don't need help, but really will.
> 
> It's a better customer experience if (for free) someone will roll to your house to do it for you vs. you getting upset that you don't understand (but thought you would) and then having to wait extra days because you have to schedule a call.
> 
> And training the customer service phone reps is probably costly / a lost cause.


I agree that's why most MSOs require a truck roll but, in practice, it leaves a little to be desired because, in many cases, the techs are not very experienced either.

When I got my new DLP TV last month I called Comcast to have a CableCard installed and they said they required the truck roll. I told them I was pretty sure I could handle it myself and would like to try picking one up and installing it first instead of paying the $25 fee. Finally, after some haggling, they agreed to waive the fee.

On install day, the guy that showed up wasn't even a Comcast employee, just a contractor, on his first day solo, who had not much of a clue as to what to do other than follow a script that most consumers could easily follow. Also, it turns out their 'install script' is flawed. They need the serial number on the card to activate it and don't have it in the script to write that down before installing the card since that info does not show up the the CableCard setup screen so we had to pull the card to get that info and then reinstall. The tech said I should turn off the TV, even though it did not say that anywhere in the script and my TV manual specifically said the TV should be on when installing the card. So, the truck roll was pretty useless, as I expected.


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## RARamaker (Dec 1, 2000)

stevereis said:


> I agree that's why most MSOs require a truck roll but, in practice, it leaves a little to be desired because, in many cases, the techs are not very experienced either.
> 
> When I got my new DLP TV last month I called Comcast to have a CableCard installed and they said they required the truck roll. I told them I was pretty sure I could handle it myself and would like to try picking one up and installing it first instead of paying the $25 fee. Finally, after some haggling, they agreed to waive the fee.
> 
> On install day, the guy that showed up wasn't even a Comcast employee, just a contractor, on his first day solo, who had not much of a clue as to what to do other than follow a script that most consumers could easily follow. Also, it turns out their 'install script' is flawed. They need the serial number on the card to activate it and don't have it in the script to write that down before installing the card since that info does not show up the the CableCard setup screen so we had to pull the card to get that info and then reinstall. The tech said I should turn off the TV, even though it did not say that anywhere in the script and my TV manual specifically said the TV should be on when installing the card. So, the truck roll was pretty useless, as I expected.


And now you know why they think installing a card in a slot requires a truck roll. I would think anyone could install the card and then call the cable company to provide the proper information.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Reading thru this thread I don't think that most people 'get' what SDV is all about.

SDV only 'saves bandwidth' on niche channels. There is ZERO point to putting 'all' programming on a given cable system on a SDV delivery basis. It makes no sense.

TWC was turned on to SDV by figuring out that 80% of their customers in primetime were watching something like 47% of the available channel selection. The remaining channels, mostly niche channels, were unwatched for a significant portion of the primetime viewing period. Some of those channels were 'significantly viewed' at other times of day, which negated serious benefits from making them SDV.

So I think there is much panic and fear about something that won't affect the vast majority of the channels on a given system.

I love these forums and there are a very useful source of information a lot of the time. But sometimes it just seems as if people revel in in the FUD factors ... long before there is any reason to...

Personally, when the S3 is available; if I were a TWC customer, I would find out what exact channels are going to be SDV on my system. If those were channels I could care less about (a very good chance) I would then make my decision about buying an S3.

To panic about the future functionality of a product that isn't even available on the market yet... endlessly... is pointless.

J


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

lajohn27 said:


> Some of those channels were 'significantly viewed' at other times of day, which negated serious benefits from making them SDV.


Not true. If you have channel A that is significantly viewed during the day and Channel B that is significanly viewed during the night, this would benefit from SDV which could switch A on during the day and switch B on during the evening'



lajohn27 said:


> I love these forums and there are a very useful source of information a lot of the time. But sometimes it just seems as if people revel in in the FUD factors ... long before there is any reason to...
> 
> To panic about the future functionality of a product that isn't even available on the market yet... endlessly... is pointless.J


Why are you a FUD factor person if you are concerned about the loss of functionality due to SDV? I am not sure what FUD means but assume it is something about spreading false data to discredit the S3. You can correct me if I'm wrong here. Simple fact is that an S3 will not be able to tune any SDV channels, everyone thinks that 'their' channels will not be on the SDV tier, TW is not the only MSO with RFPs out for SDV implementation. If that makes worried folks FUD folks, so be it.


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## bferrell (Jun 22, 2005)

Just got a personal return call from TWC Cincinnati, and the nice voice on the other side tells me that, "at this time" they plan to support the Tivo 3, but that this could change "as mroe information about the Tivo 3 comes out". Just FYI.

Brett


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

ah30k said:


> I am not sure what FUD means


FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt

Dan


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

lajohn27 said:


> So I think there is much panic and fear about something that won't affect the vast majority of the channels on a given system.


 Considering that as one user posted a link to TWC website showing that all digital simulcast channels are currently on SDV I'd say that is a pretty big deal. With the S3 you'd only have access to the analog versions of those channels and thus get a big picture quality hit.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

RARamaker said:


> ... they think installing a card in a slot requires a truck roll. I would think anyone could install the card and then call the cable company to provide the proper information.


Personally, I agree. But, just to play Devil's Advocate what do you believe that a cable company should do if a problem comes up and a customer can't get the card to work?

The obvious answer is a "truck roll" but the real question is should there be a mandatory charge; an optional charge based on the problem encountered; or should cable companies be mandated to install cable cards for free regardless of costs associated with any particular installation.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

TiVo Troll said:


> Personally, I agree. But, just to play Devil's Advocate what do you believe that a cable company should do if a problem comes up and a customer can't get the card to work?
> 
> The obvious answer is a "truck roll" but the real question is should there be a mandatory charge; an optional charge based on the problem encountered; or should cable companies be mandated to install cable cards for free regardless of costs associated with any particular installation.


self install for free.

They should have their scripts down now to the point that they can account for any problem on their end.

If they cant walk you through it over the phone then they roll the truck for a charge since it should be your fault. If It works out to be their fault then they should credit the truck roll fee.

I DONT KNOW- but isn't that how self install cable modems work?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

This is not different then cable modem or DSL service. They use to require a truck roll for those as well. However once they got comfortable with the technology they started doing self installs and charging if you screwed something up and had to have a tech come out.

In a few years I expect CableCARD service to be the same.

Dan


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Oceanic Time Warner had no problems with the S3, so long as it was a cablelabs approved device as I stated. Here was their reply:



> Thank you for your recent inquiry. We will provide a cable card for any
> cable card enabled device. Since the Series 3 Tivo has not yet been
> released. We have not had an opportunity to see if there are any
> compatibility issues. But we would be happy to provide you with a cable
> card and we can see what happens.


=JT=


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> self install for free.
> 
> If they cant walk you through it over the phone then they roll the truck for a charge since it should be your fault. If It works out to be their fault then they should credit the truck roll fee.


Sounds right!


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> To panic about the future functionality of a product that isn't even available on the market yet... endlessly... is pointless.
> 
> J


Well, it's not pointless. We are 99% certain that the S3 will be a Cablecard 1.0 product. We know that not all services/channels are available with Cablecard 1.0. The main summary of this thread (especially if you are a TWC customer) is:

1. Do your homework to make sure the series 3 will actually receive all the channels you want. It may not. Check, double-check, and triple-check (see item #3 below) before buying an S3.

2. There is no guarantee that the series 3's will be able to receive any new channels (or new HD versions of channels you already have) added to your cable service in the future.

3. There will be the usual growing pains associated with a new product based on a new technology (compatibility issues, clueless customers, clueless customer support, etc.). This is usually fun to watch unless you actually have the new product.

4. For me, I know I'm not getting an S3, so this will be fun to watch for me.


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

see my new thread

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=310025


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