# THD Software update



## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Woke up today to the THD stuck on Powering Up screen. After pulling the plug and waiting for it to come back up, I looked in SysInfo and it got 11.0k.E1.


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## Mikef5 (Jun 4, 2007)

ThAbtO said:


> Woke up today to the THD stuck on Powering Up screen. After pulling the plug and waiting for it to come back up, I looked in SysInfo and it got 11.0k.E1.


Got the same 11.0K service pack but I got it yesterday afternoon. Haven't heard there was going to be an update and I have no idea what this update was for.... anyone have an idea on what was changed ??

Laters,
Mikef5


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## TiVoJerry (Jul 26, 2005)

You are actually part of our CS Ramp period where we release the software to a small population of customers and evaluate the impact of their cases on customer support. We generally evaluate cases for approximately two weeks, sometimes longer, before releasing to the rest of the population.

11.0k is a small update for the S3 & THD (non Premiere) boxes that carries two fixes.
1> a fix for when you lose your connection to Netflix while streaming. In the past, boxes were certain to lock up. Now you can exit to TiVo Central or LiveTV and resume viewing when your broadband connection to Netflix is restored. 
*you may sometimes see a frozen frame of video from Netflix or a blank screen. This usually lasts less than 15 seconds, although there were a few reports of it lasting over 90 seconds.

2> We also took in a small change that might improve the recording of Suggestions on boxes using a Tuning Adapter. This fix is not as far-reaching as we had hoped it would be. YMMV.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

TiVoJerry said:


> You are actually part of our CS Ramp period where we release the software to a small population of customers and evaluate the impact of their cases on customer support. We generally evaluate cases for approximately two weeks, sometimes longer, before releasing to the rest of the population.
> 
> 11.0k is a small update for the S3 & THD (non Premiere) boxes that carries two fixes.
> 1> a fix for when you lose your connection to Netflix while streaming. In the past, boxes were certain to lock up. Now you can exit to TiVo Central or LiveTV and resume viewing when your broadband connection to Netflix is restored.
> ...


Outstanding Jerry! I'm not so much concerned about fix #2, but Netflix stability is and has been much needed. Thank you and the engineers! :up:


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

TiVoJerry said:


> 11.0k is a small update for the S3 & THD (non Premiere) boxes that carries two fixes.


Jerry,

Is there anywhere on the TiVo site (or anywhere else for that matter) where changeLogs or release notes are available for the various software updates that are pushed out to our TiVo's?

Thanks!


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## TiVoJerry (Jul 26, 2005)

solutionsetc said:


> Jerry,
> 
> Is there anywhere on the TiVo site (or anywhere else for that matter) where changeLogs or release notes are available for the various software updates that are pushed out to our TiVo's?
> 
> Thanks!


Sorry, nope.


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## MrSkippy53 (Jan 27, 2011)

What about a Netflix update for searching Netflix content and ability to see how far you have watch a video from the menu?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

MrSkippy53 said:


> What about a Netflix update for searching Netflix content and ability to see how far you have watch a video from the menu?


You can use TiVo Search to find content on Netflix.
Doesn't "Resume Playing" give an indication that you had playback in progress? Does it really matter "where" you are if not at the beginning?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Thanks TiVoJerry and glad to hear about the fix to that long standing pesky Netflix streaming bug for S3 & THD units. I take it the implication is that Premiere units with 14.7 software already have that fix as well (or don't have that bug)?


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## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

Well it looks like Tivo is still supporting (software updates) the Series 3/ HD. This will almost certainly upset all the Tivo haters. So much for throwing us (HD) owners to the curb. Thank you Tivo.


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## Lrscpa (Apr 20, 2003)

TiVoJerry said:


> 2> We also took in a small change that might improve the recording of Suggestions on boxes using a Tuning Adapter. This fix is not as far-reaching as we had hoped it would be. YMMV.


I for one am thrilled that TiVo is addressing the Suggestions Issue on the THD when a Tuning Adapter is present. I can go weeks without a Suggestion, then all of a sudden 6-10 per day for a few days, then back to nothing.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

I was hoping that the "K" stood for "keyboard"*, and the S3 would finally get its network remote interface updated to match the Premiere's, with the KEYBOARD command actually working. No such luck, eh?

* ObPedant: Yes, I realize that the letter doesn't stand for anything.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Hmm, I'm almost positive I've used the BuddyTV app to type on both my S3 & TivoHD, and it worked fine.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

TiVoJerry said:


> 11.0k is a small update for the S3 & THD (non Premiere) boxes that carries two fixes.
> 1> a fix for when you lose your connection to Netflix while streaming. In the past, boxes were certain to lock up. Now you can exit to TiVo Central or LiveTV and resume viewing when your broadband connection to Netflix is restored.
> *you may sometimes see a frozen frame of video from Netflix or a blank screen. This usually lasts less than 15 seconds, although there were a few reports of it lasting over 90 seconds.
> 
> 2> We also took in a small change that might improve the recording of Suggestions on boxes using a Tuning Adapter. This fix is not as far-reaching as we had hoped it would be. YMMV.


Thanks Jerry for the update on what's fixed. Most appreciated even though we've never seen the first issue with our Netflix streaming.

Scott


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

mattack said:


> Hmm, I'm almost positive I've used the BuddyTV app to type on both my S3 & TivoHD, and it worked fine.


It's more complicated than that. Read more here if you're interested. You probably are seeing similar behavior on both, but only because the app is using the inferior interface. The KEYBOARD command works more like a Slide remote does.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> Jerry,
> 
> Is there anywhere on the TiVo site (or anywhere else for that matter) where changeLogs or release notes are available for the various software updates that are pushed out to our TiVo's?





TiVoJerry said:


> Sorry, nope.


There should be. First of all, if nothing else, I think such a list could potentially head off many of the - frankly ridiculous - comments concerning a lack of activity and / or responsiveness on TiVo's part regarding development. Secondly, sometimes the features are not completely obvious, and many users may miss what to them are important new features or fixes offered by each release. Finally, and to my eye most importantly, TiVo owners should be considered to have a right to know what software is deployed on their units. While I realize there is absolutely no law requiring this, it is ethically appropriate, without being detrimental to TiVo, Inc in any way of which I can think.

I certainly would appreciate it if you and the other TiVo employees who read this forum would express this notion to the senior management team for consideration. If you ask me, at the very least it would be one more way in which TiVo can positively distinguish themselves in contrast to the competition in the market sector, while costing TiVo almost nothing and risking even less.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> There should be. First of all, if nothing else, I think such a list could potentially head off many of the - frankly ridiculous - comments concerning a lack of activity and / or responsiveness on TiVo's part regarding development. Secondly, sometimes the features are not completely obvious, and many users may miss what to them are important new features or fixes offered by each release. Finally, and to my eye most importantly, TiVo owners should be considered to have a right to know what software is deployed on their units. While I realize there is absolutely no law requiring this, it is ethically appropriate, without being detrimental to TiVo, Inc in any way of which I can think.
> 
> I certainly would appreciate it if you and the other TiVo employees who read this forum would express this notion to the senior management team for consideration. If you ask me, at the very least it would be one more way in which TiVo can positively distinguish themselves in contrast to the competition in the market sector, while costing TiVo almost nothing and risking even less.


For their own reasons, TiVo has made it a hard and fast policy to NOT EVER provide public release notes. All you see in any announcement is new features, if any. That TivoJerry's management is allowing him to publicly divulge those two bug fixes is something of a breakthrough


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I got the softwear update and now i keep getting program info will run out on sun 2/27.
I keep connecting to tivo and it downloads the info but i still get this problem.

also in the guide i can go to 3/4 and it still has program info.
But In system imformation it says program infomation to 2/27, 2011

The other tivo hd does not have this problem


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I'm not 100% positive this is a new problem, but I sure don't remember it happening before, and the Tivo I saw it on was on the new build.

1) record 2 programs in a timeslot
2) record another show in the timeslot before it
3) try to pad the show from #2 to end a minute late

-> The prompt will ask you if you really want to change the *KEEP UNTIL DATE*, not whether you want to clip the other program.

and no, I am absolutely sure my Tivo isn't actually full (it's a new drive, I have hundreds of items in the recently deleted folder, and show #2 was currently recording).


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

tootal2 said:


> I got the softwear update and now i keep getting program info will run out on sun 2/27.
> I keep connecting to tivo and it downloads the info but i still get this problem.
> 
> also in the guide i can go to 3/4 and it still has program info.
> ...


This is going to sound like jump off the cliff faith but....

I bet AFTER 2/27 your problem goes away.

Like a date is stuck in a place-value for some reason, the TiVo is panicking because of the wrong date, even though you guide data is obviously there. Then when the date goes by it the value will reset.


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## dcstager (Feb 16, 2002)

They fixed the suggestions bug but not the missed recordings/SDV tuning failure bug? One is annoying and one completely undermines the Tivo's main purpose rendering it unreliable and pushing people back to the cableco's boxes. What are they thinking? C'Mon TivoJerry can you try and get the right person's attention on this? The forum's experts diagnosed it specifically and came up a fix method.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

I pretty much knew the answer to my question about there not being any documentation on software that is pushed out to our devices before I asked it. I know of no other company that operates this way. They obviously have reasons for not wanting this info disclosed and _that_ is just one more thing that creeps me out about TiVo.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Here's one: http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/replaytv/default.asp


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## Mikef5 (Jun 4, 2007)

solutionsetc said:


> I pretty much knew the answer to my question about there not being any documentation on software that is pushed out to our devices before I asked it. I know of no other company that operates this way. They obviously have reasons for not wanting this info disclosed and _that_ is just one more thing that creeps me out about TiVo.


Here's the problem with not giving any documentation for this update.

I got the new update, What did it fix ? 
I have no idea even on what to look for so I can give feedback to Tivo that this update did or didn't fix anything at all since I have no idea on what to look for.

So is it Tivo's policy to push out an update with no documentation and then expect you to guess what they fixed ?????? 

Seriously, how can you give feedback on an update when you have no idea on what it's suppose to fix or what to look for ?

Laters,
Mikef5


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

TiVoJerry said:


> .......
> 1> a fix for when you lose your connection to Netflix while streaming. In the past, boxes were certain to lock up. Now you can exit to TiVo Central or LiveTV and resume viewing when your broadband connection to Netflix is restored.
> *you may sometimes see a frozen frame of video from Netflix or a blank screen. This usually lasts less than 15 seconds, although there were a few reports of it lasting over 90 seconds.
> ..........


 Does the 15 to 90 second frozen frame occur after Netflix has locked up and you have exited to LiveTV and then retry Netflix?

Does it happen only if the internet connection is still bad when you retry?


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## TiVoJerry (Jul 26, 2005)

It can happen after Netflix runs out of buffer and you have pressed either the TiVo or LiveTV button to escape. At that point, TiVo Central may have a blank background or a static image of the last frame of Netflix video. Menus are still accessible. 

Generally speaking, the symptom clears quickly....sometimes it isn't even noticed. The behavior does not rely on the connection status.


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## JimPa (Oct 25, 2006)

I've been holding off on getting Netflix on my S3 as it seemed that it was still a bit buggy.

Looks like I might have to give it a try.

Thanks Tivo Jerry for posting about this.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

I got this update last night the 28th. So far no change. I had suggestions turned off since they didn't work. Will have to see if anything has recorded.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

ferrumpneuma said:


> One reason a public change log may be detrimental to TiVo is that it may CONFIRM a lack of activity and/or responsiveness on TiVo's part.


I disagree... While I would personally like to see a change log, I suspect that TiVo would rather not arugue with the masses about development priorties.

If they were to publish their change log - the complaint would move from they are not responsive to they have no idea what is important to "ME".


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## VinceA (May 13, 2002)

I doubt it but does the update do anything to address the issue described here involving TiVoHD's with Tuning Adapters not updating the guide data date:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=424234


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

bradleys said:


> If they were to publish their change log - the complaint would move from they are not responsive to they have no idea what is important to "ME".


What's wrong with that? We don't publish our feature requests but that is primarily due to the fact that folks won't make them if they know they've already been made. We assign priority to the redundancy of requests.

But when we ship a new build, we're proud of what we've added (and of what we've fixed) and want folks to know about it especially if one of the fixes doesn't address the issue with all users.

Not publishing this data, and not having interest in the feedback it generates, just means you are operating more in the dark than you have to be. It is arrogant and stupid, and sends a clear message how you feel about your users.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> What's wrong with that? We don't publish our feature requests but that is primarily due to the fact that folks won't make them if they know they've already been made. We assign priority to the redundancy of requests.


Agreed. Many companies limit their announcements to the release date or perhaps just prior to the release date. This a fairly prudent policy.



solutionsetc said:


> But when we ship a new build, we're proud of what we've added (and of what we've fixed) and want folks to know about it especially if one of the fixes doesn't address the issue with all users.


Again, agreed.



solutionsetc said:


> Not publishing this data, and not having interest in the feedback it generates, just means you are operating more in the dark than you have to be. It is arrogant and stupid, and sends a clear message how you feel about your users.


Well, that may be an overstatement, but I've learned from experience that people are (inexplicably) more impressed with buggy applications that have frequent, highly visible bug fix releases than with bug free applications. Years ago, in the FIDONet days, my favorite mail tosser was a full featured, lightning fast application that was released day 1 completely bug free. Relatively few people used it because, "Oh, no one has released an update for that software in years." The most popular software, however, was quite buggy and had fewer features, but the author released updates, both bug fixes and feature updates literally every week.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> I've learned from experience that people are (inexplicably) more impressed with buggy applications that have frequent, highly visible bug fix releases than with bug free applications.


While I agree with this, I don't see how it relates to the concept that not publishing changelogs is a bad idea.

With respect to popularity of software due to frequent releases (no matter how buggy), folks like to be reassured development continues especially in this day and age of operating system vendors changing and deprecating APIs at the drop of a hat, and the likes of Adobe and Microsoft making major upgrades (which are not so major but versioned ".0" nevertheless) every 9-14 months. Lets face it upgrades are big revenue and new features sell upgrades regardless of whether the underlying code is any better than the last version.

Users are conditioned by what they see in the marketplace, and EOL'd software they once loved their mindset is not all their doing. Kudos to the developer that won't ship knowing there are bugs that would inconvenience users, but big business doesn't operate this way anymore. I once delayed an upgrade for a new hardware architecture for over nine months from the announced ship date (and ate plenty of revenue to do so) but it is pretty clear to me a lot of developers are not this conscientious.

Then there was the mindset of one engineering director I worked with while at Aldus whose philosophy was "write no new code" and "leverage, leverage, leverage".

My guess is he's working for TiVo now.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> While I agree with this, I don't see how it relates to the concept that not publishing changelogs is a bad idea.


A platform that is perceived as being static risks being considered inferior, even if it in fact is not. Time and again here in the forum people whine about TiVo's inactivity when it comes to new features and bug fixes.



solutionsetc said:


> With respect to popularity of software due to frequent releases (no matter how buggy), folks like to be reassured development continues&#8230;


Yes, I know, but it is foolish to seek or admire change for the sake of change. A good example is Galleon. Galleon for the TiVo is not being actively developed. People avoid it for that reason. The simple fact is, however, Galleon has numerous terrific features not found in any other software. Instead, users flock to software that is years behind Galleon, and may never catch up no matter how much development takes place.



solutionsetc said:


> especially in this day and age of operating system vendors changing and deprecating APIs at the drop of a hat, and the likes of Adobe and Microsoft making major upgrades (which are not so major but versioned ".0" nevertheless) every 9-14 months. Lets face it upgrades are big revenue and new features sell upgrades regardless of whether the underlying code is any better than the last version.


Which supports my position. It is the perception of newness that sells products, but without a visible reference for change, the perception is there is nothing new. A well crafted changelog is the software equivalent of stamping "New and Improved!" on a box of soap at the supermarket.



solutionsetc said:


> Then there was the mindset of one engineering director I worked with while at Aldus whose philosophy was "write no new code" and "leverage, leverage, leverage".
> 
> My guess is he's working for TiVo now.


My point is the perception that TiVo has done nothing in years is a mistaken one in part fostered by the fact they are so silent about what they have done.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> Time and again here in the forum people whine about TiVo's inactivity when it comes to new features and bug fixes.
> 
> A well crafted changelog is the software equivalent of stamping "New and Improved!" on a box of soap at the supermarket.
> 
> My point is the perception that TiVo has done nothing in years is a mistaken one in part fostered by the fact they are so silent about what they have done.


My perception isn't based on TiVo's silence. It is based on checking to see if the bugs I have reproduced, recipe'd, and reported have been addressed in each update. The fact that they have not, and that they don't wish to bother informing users what they have addressed, has me perceiving that the reporting of legitimate issues to TiVo is a waste of my time. Not good for anyone wanting to build a better product.

On the other hand, if their goal is to frustrate folks who would take the time and energy to file proper bug reports (a scarce commodity mind you) into throwing their hands in the air and walking away muttering, I would have to assess their policies as being pretty effective.


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## jmbissell (Dec 4, 2006)

ThAbtO said:


> Woke up today to the THD stuck on Powering Up screen. After pulling the plug and waiting for it to come back up, I looked in SysInfo and it got 11.0k.E1.


My THD was frozen the same way this afternoon. Pulled the plug and hoped it wasn't a disk failure. On power up, the update was installed and it rebooted normally. Luckily I had no programs scheduled to record as I'm sure it froze overnight.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

VinceA said:


> I doubt it but does the update do anything to address the issue described here involving TiVoHD's with Tuning Adapters not updating the guide data date:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=424234


I have that problem I fix it by rebooting my tivo everyweek
also since sdv started all tivo sugestions have stopped


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## VinceA (May 13, 2002)

tootal2 said:


> I have that problem I fix it by rebooting my tivo everyweek
> also since sdv started all tivo sugestions have stopped


OK, you're the fourth or fifth person that I've rounded up with the same issue and the same symptoms. Definitely TiVoHD/tuning adapter related. If I keep my Deleted Items folder empty at least Garbage Collection (GC) will happen every three or so days which then causes my guide data date to update without me having to reboot.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> My perception isn't based on TiVo's silence. It is based on checking to see if the bugs I have reproduced, recipe'd, and reported have been addressed in each update.


Yes, but you are not the average user nor the average potential buyer.



solutionsetc said:


> The fact that they have not, and that they don't wish to bother informing users what they have addressed, has me perceiving that the reporting of legitimate issues to TiVo is a waste of my time. Not good for anyone wanting to build a better product.


Here, I disagree. With the exception of the M-Card support on the S3, every major issue I have reported has been addressed, and more than one or two I have not reported myself. I'm talking bug fixes, here. Features are a different matter.



solutionsetc said:


> On the other hand, if their goal is to frustrate folks who would take the time and energy to file proper bug reports (a scarce commodity mind you) into throwing their hands in the air and walking away muttering, I would have to assess their policies as being pretty effective.


Cynically, one could argue if the user walks away from tech support, but not the product, then they are doing a very good job of maximizing profit. Less cynically, some bugs are of sufficiently low impact that fixing more widespread or severe bugs properly should be given higher priority. Also, some failures can be devilishly difficult to reproduce in the lab. All that said, I do feel that fixing bugs has in general fallen to be inapropriately low in priority in most industries.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

VinceA said:


> OK, you're the fourth or fifth person that I've rounded up with the same issue and the same symptoms. Definitely TiVoHD/tuning adapter related. If I keep my Deleted Items folder empty at least Garbage Collection (GC) will happen every three or so days which then causes my guide data date to update without me having to reboot.


Several people have reported this, but not everyone is experiencing it. I have 2 S3s and a THD, and I don't seem to be having any issues with Suggestions. I'm on TWC with Cisco TAs.


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## VinceA (May 13, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Several people have reported this, but not everyone is experiencing it. I have 2 S3s and a THD, and I don't seem to be having any issues with Suggestions. I'm on TWC with Cisco TAs.


Oh, I'm sure it's not everyone but there it's more than a unique problem. I think MegaZone is amongst the affected since he got a Cisco TA. Combo of a bunch of different things, CableCard type, TA, etc.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> one could argue if the user walks away from tech support, but not the product, then they are doing a very good job of maximizing profit.


I don't think anyone would consider TiVo's profitability to be something to brag about. For me, personally, I look forward to the day when I find a product mix that makes my TiVos superfluous.

But it is not about the subscription fees. I am happy to pay them and support a company that I think is evolving. Unfortunately, I feel TiVo is in damage control mode with its direction helmed by bean counters.


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

I have found one problem that came back with the 11.0k.*E1* The CC will not display while the onscreen clock is there. 
When I had 11.0j, both would display just fine.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

^^^^
Works fine for me...

Edit: There is a bug where if you go into any menus, CC's fail to display when you return to what you were watching.
You have to turn them off then back on to get them to display again.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

steve614 said:


> ^^^^
> Works fine for me...
> 
> Edit: There is a bug where if you go into any menus, CC's fail to display when you return to what you were watching.
> You have to turn them off then back on to get them to display again.


I do not seem to have that problem. Not that I am interested in trying to get my TiVo to do that, but how exactly has it happened?


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## RangerOne (Dec 30, 2006)

Anyone know when 11.0k will be released to the rest of us? Still on 11.0j here.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> I don't think anyone would consider TiVo's profitability to be something to brag about.


I was joking, or at least being sardonic.



solutionsetc said:


> For me, personally, I look forward to the day when I find a product mix that makes my TiVos superfluous.


I can say that of every device I own, including my car and my shoes.

Out of earshot, I also say it about my girlfriend. 



solutionsetc said:


> But it is not about the subscription fees. I am happy to pay them and support a company that I think is evolving.


Only if it is evolving in a useful, economical, and effective direction. Most of the suggestions I have seen in the TiVo Suggestion Avenue forum I would pay to have removed from my DVR. Software-wise, all I would really like to see on the TiVos is better conflict resolution and better handling of new channel additions. Well, that plus better support for 3rd party developers. Hardware wise, all I really would like to see is a good Gigabit Ethernet interface along with the CPU stones to support transfer rates greater than 50 MBps. Very little else would impress me.

Well, a 100% open source DVR that CableLabs is forced to certify would, but that's not going to happen.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

daveak said:


> I do not seem to have that problem.


You probably don't use the clock hack. This bug happens if you use the clock display.



> Not that I am interested in trying to get my TiVo to do that, but how exactly has it happened?


I don't know how it happened, but if you want to try and reproduce the bug, start by turning CC off (if you have them turned on).
Next, enable the clock display ( Select - Play - Select - 9 - Select).
After that, go back to live TV or a recorded show and turn CC on. You should be seeing subtitles.
Now go back to a Tivo menu. Tivo Central, NPL, it doesn't matter.
Return to the show you were just watching.
Does CC show up? If no, you have successfully reproduced the bug.
To get CC to show up again, you must turn them off and then back on.


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## CraigK (Jun 9, 2006)

I can reproduce that bug with CC, but I don't use CC much so I don't know if it behaved that way before 11.0k or not. I do use the clock hack, but normally just turn CC on temporarily and then back off.

Curiously when one of our TiVo HDs got the new software the other night CC was On when I turned the TV on the next morning. I'm sure I didn't have it on the night before. Maybe one of the cats was playing with the remote overnight.


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## George Cifranci (Jan 30, 2003)

I just head my TiVo reboot a few minutes ago (around 2:15AM ET 3-5-2011) and I checked the System Info and I got the *11.0k*-01-2-648 update for my Series 3. I don't use Netflix though.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Both of our S3s received the update yesterday and I went ahead and rebooted them early. Both seemed happy post-reboot.

Scott


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## joropeza (Mar 2, 2008)

Interesting ocurrence for me after the update. I noticed last night when going to the bottom of my now playing list that my DLNA media server is now showing as an option. It appears right my other Tivo. I was able to select the dlna and drill down but, was not able to play anything. This is probably because I only have bluray rips and are not supported by the THD. I will be placing a tivo compliant file on the dlna media server later today and try playing it. 

Anyone else can confirm this?


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## jiffyspam (Feb 19, 2010)

looks like i got the upgrade last night. Tried the netflix interface because I heard it's now greatly improved - and doesn't freeze the box. It still stops and reloads. Not nearly as bad as the old one, but still not as robust as the roku box. I'm leaving roku on the rack. maybe next upgrade.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

jiffyspam said:


> looks like i got the upgrade last night. Tried the netflix interface because I heard it's now greatly improved - and doesn't freeze the box. It still stops and reloads.


Unfortunately, this update just addresses using Netflix and losing your internet connection altogether, NOT lack of bandwidth...


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

joropeza said:


> Interesting ocurrence for me after the update. I noticed last night when going to the bottom of my now playing list that my DLNA media server is now showing as an option. It appears right my other Tivo. I was able to select the dlna and drill down but, was not able to play anything. This is probably because I only have bluray rips and are not supported by the THD. I will be placing a tivo compliant file on the dlna media server later today and try playing it.
> 
> Anyone else can confirm this?


ReadyNAS?


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## jiffyspam (Feb 19, 2010)

steve614 said:


> Unfortunately, this update just addresses using Netflix and losing your internet connection altogether, NOT lack of bandwidth...


Right, but what I'm saying is that I don't have this issue with the roku box. All I'm sayin' is that the tivo stops and starts - which is a whole lot better than freezing the box. It's an improvement, but still not better than the roku box sitting on top of the tivo.

Hopes of moving the roku off my A system and putting it upstairs or traveling with it will put on hold for the time being.


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## joropeza (Mar 2, 2008)

CuriousMark said:


> ReadyNAS?


Yes, I have the Netgear WNDR3700. Tried a mpg file that was obtained by stripping the .tivo encryption but, I was not able to see it listed on the THD. Any suggestions for making it work?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Looks like TiVo support is a feature of the ReadyNAS and nothing to do with the update.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=455836

Scott


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

HerronScott said:


> Looks like TiVo support is a feature of the ReadyNAS and nothing to do with the update.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=455836
> 
> Scott


What he said. The readyNAS calls it DLNA, but for TiVo DVRs it is implemented using TiVo's Home Media Extensions (HME) which is a protocol that is similar to, but not the same as DLNA. Actually it is better than DLNA because it also provides a user interface like the future RVU addition to DLNA will.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

CuriousMark said:


> The readyNAS calls it DLNA, but for TiVo DVRs it is implemented using TiVo's Home Media Extensions (HME) which is a protocol that is similar to, but not the same as DLNA. Actually it is better than DLNA because it also provides a user interface like the future RVU addition to DLNA will.


It's HMO, not HME. No UI.


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## RayChuang88 (Sep 5, 2002)

I just got the 11.0k update myself. This message thread doesn't tell me just what *EXACTLY* is involved with this update, :down: so how about giving us a FAQ on just what are the changes to 11.0k compared to 11.0j.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

RayChuang88 said:


> I just got the 11.0k update myself. This message thread doesn't tell me just what *EXACTLY* is involved with this update, :down: so how about giving us a FAQ on just what are the changes to 11.0k compared to 11.0j.


All we know is what TiVoJerry has told us:



TiVoJerry said:


> 11.0k is a small update for the S3 & THD (non Premiere) boxes that carries two fixes.
> 1> a fix for when you lose your connection to Netflix while streaming. In the past, boxes were certain to lock up. Now you can exit to TiVo Central or LiveTV and resume viewing when your broadband connection to Netflix is restored.
> *you may sometimes see a frozen frame of video from Netflix or a blank screen. This usually lasts less than 15 seconds, although there were a few reports of it lasting over 90 seconds.
> 
> 2> We also took in a small change that might improve the recording of Suggestions on boxes using a Tuning Adapter. This fix is not as far-reaching as we had hoped it would be. YMMV.


That's most likely it. If any other bug fixes or new features were added, I'm sure he would have told us.
Not really an update, more like a patch.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> It's HMO, not HME. No UI.


DOH!

Thank you for the correction.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

steve614 said:


> Not really an update, more like a patch.


Given that there was no Message related to the update (which typically touts any new features), this further confirms that this is a bug fix/patch release with no new features.

I am glad that TiVoJerry is allowed to, and thankfully does, provide a hint as to what was fixed.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> Software-wise, all I would really like to see on the TiVos is better conflict resolution and better handling of new channel additions. Well, that plus better support for 3rd party developers. Hardware wise, all I really would like to see is a good Gigabit Ethernet interface along with the CPU stones to support transfer rates greater than 50 MBps. Very little else would impress me.


I could live with simply a pref that new channels were disabled by default. My biggest issue is the dated interface, scads of hierarchical screens, and the myriad of button pushing it takes to navigate them when we have had for years enough display resolution to eliminate it. Unfortunately this was not a goal for the new hi-def abomination of the Premie, and is just another demonstration TiVo has lost sight of the usability factor that made them #1 in the first place.

I think the dream of third party support is pretty much dead unless it is a partnership for advertising and content revenue. Nothing creative gonna be coming out of that bunch. And the hardware well umm you know.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> I could live with simply a pref that new channels were disabled by default.


That doesn't help. When selecting/deselecting a channel in the lineup, one must needs know several things:
1. Do I actually get this channel, or is it just in my CATV company's line-up, but not one I actually receive?

2. What channel is it? Some of the call signs are pretty obvious, but often I have no clue concerning what the general content might actually be. A description would be helpful. For example: "ABC local afffiliate", or "Joe's Bait Shop call in marketing in Spanish".

3. Is this a channel I want?

Right now, one must choose the entry, perhaps after scrolling endlessly down the list. Then one must either memorise or write down the channel number. Next, one must click over to live TV and change the channel to the specific number. All this should be available from the UI merely by pressing . After viewing the channel for a while, one may go back to the listing by pressing the left arrow, but when one does one is dropped back, not where one left off, but rather back at the top of the list. So, yet again one must read off the channel number one wrote down, enter the channel number, and then decide to add or delete the program. All of this should be possible with three button presses, not over a dozen, and one should not have to be writing things down. Having the channel description would in many cases reduce the time and trouble even further.



solutionsetc said:


> My biggest issue is the dated interface


Dated in what way? I have seen few, if any, acceptable suggestions for updates.



solutionsetc said:


> scads of hierarchical screens, and the myriad of button pushing it takes to navigate them when we have had for years enough display resolution to eliminate it.


There is a simple solution to this. Don't use them. I very rarely use any of the menus. That said, I agree that a higher, scalable text resolution could be of great help, especially the NPL (8 entires with a differential of 7 per page is just ridiculous), and coalescing the menus into broader, more generalized functions could be useful, but most people want to go the other way: rather than increasing the density of the menus, lots of people are impressed by a bunch of freakin' pictures stuck all over the screen.



solutionsetc said:


> Unfortunately this was not a goal for the new hi-def abomination of the Premie


Agreed.



solutionsetc said:


> and is just another demonstration TiVo has lost sight of the usability factor that made them #1 in the first place.


Yet people are impressed by crap like that on the Premier and the Moxi. Barf.



solutionsetc said:


> I think the dream of third party support is pretty much dead unless it is a partnership for advertising and content revenue.


On which side? TiVo's or the developers? The developers are quite active. TiVo's SDK is not.



solutionsetc said:


> Nothing creative gonna be coming out of that bunch.


What bunch? The SDK support team? I don't think there is one. OTOH, all that is really needed for good 3rd party support is an occasional update to the SDK. There doesn't need to be an SDK support line or professional services help, or any such.



solutionsetc said:


> And the hardware&#8230; well&#8230; umm&#8230; you know.


'Nothing really wrong with the hardware, particularly given the price. I challenge you to point to a better piece of DVR hardware for under $800. Again, I would like to see a Gig-E interface, and more, higher speed cores would be nice, but then the price would also go up.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> That doesn't help. When selecting/deselecting a channel in the lineup, one must needs know several things: 1...23


For me, something that is rarely accessed is a low priority. We get something like 200 channels. I only want 40 or so in my guide, and only 7 or 8 in my favorites. Maybe I am the exception and not the rule (but I don't think so).



> Dated in what way? I have seen few, if any, acceptable suggestions for updates.


Too much dead space. We don't need letters that take up 20+% of the screen height anymore. Search results (all lists for that matter) often show truncated titles, no details without navigating to another screen and back. Search result interfaces should work like the guide in that details are offered in an area at top for the selectedLine without having to navigate more screens.

Menus should be hierarchical or at least configurable (perhaps a favorites menu). I frequently change the DD output setting to PCM and back. Why should that take 5 screens and 7 button pushes?

Fact is the majority of the interface is modal and obtuse, and while an interface that looked like a high school student's first PowerPoint presentation may have been OK back in 1990 on a 480 line display, it is a poor excuse for a functional interface on an HDTV.



> I very rarely use any of the menus.


I wish I didn't have to either. 



> That said, I agree that a higher, scalable text resolution could be of great help, especially the NPL (8 entires with a differential of 7 per page is just ridiculous)


Yup. The entire multiscreen hierarchy for most menu sets can be done on one screen with today's resolution. Tivo Search showed some promise even with all of its wasted space, but the new interface has taken a real step backward.



> On which side? TiVo's or the developers? The developers are quite active. TiVo's SDK is not.


It should be a symbiotic relationship. It originally set out to be just that, but not anymore. I don't know where you are seeing a lot of activity. I see some pretty dusty tools.



> What bunch?


The "deal makers".



> The SDK support team? I don't think there is one. OTOH, all that is really needed for good 3rd party support is an occasional update to the SDK.


I think the SDK is dead. Has it even been touched in the last 3+ years?



> Nothing really wrong with the hardware, particularly given the price. I challenge you to point to a better piece of DVR hardware for under $800. Again, I would like to see a Gig-E interface, and more, higher speed cores would be nice, but then the price would also go up.


Substantially, as the hardware is built to a price using an out of the box chipset. It was not really designed for MRV in mind, that was probably a hack. But as you say, the hardware is not the real problem. The software is. And while I have no idea what is handcuffing its development, the decisions made going forward are not ones I would consider prudent.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

Netflix support still sucks. Says "HD," but pauses every few seconds with "Retrieving..." (maybe 5 seconds of play max). Wii plays perfectly over the same WiFi connection. I know that Wii isn't HD, but if that's the problem, TiVo should step down from HD instead of playing something unwatchable.

Still not ready for prime time.


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## TiVoJerry (Jul 26, 2005)

m.s said:


> Netflix support still sucks. Says "HD," but pauses every few seconds with "Retrieving..." (maybe 5 seconds of play max). Wii plays perfectly over the same WiFi connection. I know that Wii isn't HD, but if that's the problem, TiVo should step down from HD instead of playing something unwatchable.
> 
> Still not ready for prime time.


The Netflix app judged your network speed and sends you the highest quality version of the program asset that your network can handle....if the speed maintains. If your network speed varies greatly, the app will adjust.

Perhaps your network is not ready for prime time.


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## jiffyspam (Feb 19, 2010)

TiVoJerry said:


> The Netflix app judged your network speed and sends you the highest quality version of the program asset that your network can handle....if the speed maintains. If your network speed varies greatly, the app will adjust.
> 
> Perhaps your network is not ready for prime time.


With all due respect sir...

I have the same issue with the TIVO upgrade. I don't have this issue with Roku which streams the same content in HD. WII not a problem and I use that too (but understand it's not HD).

the upgrade to TiVO is a great improvement, but it's not enough to make me toss my Roku.


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## TiVoJerry (Jul 26, 2005)

jiffyspam said:


> I have the same issue with the TIVO upgrade. I don't have this issue with Roku which streams the same content in HD. WII not a problem and I use that too (but understand it's not HD).


Technically, the HD assets are not the same as those for the Roku or Wii. TiVo Netflix assets are in a different format in order to play on a TiVo DVR. I'm not arguing that the symptom itself isn't egregious or annoying (it's _*supposed *_to measure speed and adjust to a lower quality stream...not just pause and retrieve), just that the file type & sizes are different.

Keep in mind that there are multiple "assets" of different sizes (I believe at least 4 per program) that can be sent depending on exactly how much bandwidth you have available when you first access the stream. Lower bandwidth means you will stream a lower quality (smaller) asset in order to avoid interruptions as much as possible. If bandwidth drops significantly, the app has to adjust. The larger the asset, the less room there is to allow for significant bandwidth change.

My comment was directed at m.s' statement that the Wii did not have the "same problem". It's not an "apples to apples" comparison, especially if the Wii isn't even streaming HD. Filesize differences are a key factor, especially if you have marginal bandwidth anywhere between the DVR and Netflix. Perhaps it would've been fairer for me to say that the _connection _might not be ready for primetime, as the network may not be weakest link in the chain.



jiffyspam said:


> the upgrade to TiVO is a great improvement, but it's not enough to make me toss my Roku.


Completely understandable. Our update did not make any changes the basic behavior of the feature itself. We merely reduced the severity of the symptom when a broadband connection goes away completely.


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## dallastx (Sep 27, 2007)

TiVoJerry said:


> You are actually part of our CS Ramp period where we release the software to a small population of customers and evaluate the impact of their cases on customer support. We generally evaluate cases for approximately two weeks, sometimes longer, before releasing to the rest of the population.
> 
> 11.0k is a small update for the S3 & THD (non Premiere) boxes that carries two fixes.
> 1> a fix for when you lose your connection to Netflix while streaming. In the past, boxes were certain to lock up. Now you can exit to TiVo Central or LiveTV and resume viewing when your broadband connection to Netflix is restored.
> ...


With "TV Aspect Ratio" set to 16:9
"Video Output Format" set to Native
and "Aspect Correction Mode" set to Panel
SD (480i) video used to be output at 480i WITHOUT side bars and my TV took care of displaying it in the proper 4:3 aspect ratio.
Now the TiVo adds sidebars to the SD picture. Since my TV is still adding side bars of its own to display SD in 4:3 aspect ratio, the SD picture is now squeezed.
I can get a correct result by changing the TiVo "Aspect Correction Mode: to Full.
I guess that TiVo corrected what used to be an oversight, but I preferred it the old way (I think.) Since I never saw any complaints, I assume that others were also happy with the old way.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

TiVoJerry said:


> The Netflix app judged your network speed and sends you the highest quality version of the program asset that your network can handle....if the speed maintains. If your network speed varies greatly, the app will adjust.
> 
> Perhaps your network is not ready for prime time.


He also could have a slow wireless router.


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## dcstager (Feb 16, 2002)

Jerry, Is there any chance TiVo will attempt to fix the SDV/Tuning Adapter bug? This is the one where you get blank recordings "video not available" sometimes. I believe the fix was within Tivo's control, even if it's not strictly Tivo's fault. I realize there's not going to be major changes for the series 3, but if this one bug got fixed, the TiVo would regain it's essential reliability.


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## TiVoJerry (Jul 26, 2005)

dcstager said:


> Jerry, Is there any chance TiVo will attempt to fix the SDV/Tuning Adapter bug? This is the one where you get blank recordings "video not available" sometimes. I believe the fix was within Tivo's control, even if it's not strictly Tivo's fault. I realize there's not going to be major changes for the series 3, but if this one bug got fixed, the TiVo would regain it's essential reliability.


I'm doing what I can to raise visibility and priority of this issue but I can't make any guarantees. This issue was raised during testing.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dcstager said:


> Jerry, Is there any chance TiVo will attempt to fix the SDV/Tuning Adapter bug? This is the one where you get blank recordings "video not available" sometimes. I believe the fix was within Tivo's control, even if it's not strictly Tivo's fault. I realize there's not going to be major changes for the series 3, but if this one bug got fixed, the TiVo would regain it's essential reliability.


+1 :up:
I lose 1 to 3 recordings per week due to this, plus the nuisance of frequently having to manually retune channels.


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## Duke (May 6, 2000)

Originally Posted by dcstager 
Jerry, Is there any chance TiVo will attempt to fix the SDV/Tuning Adapter bug? This is the one where you get blank recordings "video not available" sometimes. I believe the fix was within Tivo's control, even if it's not strictly Tivo's fault. I realize there's not going to be major changes for the series 3, but if this one bug got fixed, the TiVo would regain it's essential reliability.



TiVoJerry said:


> I'm doing what I can to raise visibility and priority of this issue but I can't make any guarantees. This issue was raised during testing.


I'm affected by this bug also, and would be grateful if TiVo gave it some time and attention. It's a serious problem for me, and I suspect for a lot of other folks who have to rely on a Tuning Adapter.

Duke


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## VinceA (May 13, 2002)

TiVoJerry said:


> I'm doing what I can to raise visibility and priority of this issue but I can't make any guarantees. This issue was raised during testing.


Did anyone else bring up my favorite TA issue? The one where Garbage Collection doesn't happen frequently enough to have suggestions work & have the Guide Data date update normally.

Yeah, I'm pesty.


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## zowwie85 (Jul 25, 2010)

TiVoJerry said:


> I'm doing what I can to raise visibility and priority of this issue but I can't make any guarantees. This issue was raised during testing.


Fix the no-suggestions-with-SDV bug too. The bug renders this feature of my TiVo useless.


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## adone36 (Jul 16, 2009)

orangeboy said:


> Here's one: http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/replaytv/default.asp


Maybe in a few years, Tivo will have HALF the navigation/usage features my Replay network has.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

adone36 said:


> Maybe in a few years, Tivo will have HALF the navigation/usage features my Replay network has.


And this is relavent to TiVo publishing a changelog in what way?


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Today, my THD got another update, to the full fledged 11.0k.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

adone36 said:


> Maybe in a few years, Tivo will have HALF the navigation/usage features my Replay network has.


When I got my 3 THD's I sold my 3 Replay TV's. I sure wish that TIVO had some of the features the RPTV's had! Too bad they did not go HD! OK, back on topic.


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## adone36 (Jul 16, 2009)

orangeboy said:


> And this is relavent to TiVo publishing a changelog in what way?


It's a reply to your irrelevant post hence the quotes.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> For me, something that is rarely accessed is a low priority. We get something like 200 channels. I only want 40 or so in my guide, and only 7 or 8 in my favorites. Maybe I am the exception and not the rule (but I don't think so).


They offer close to 1000 and counting here, although most are VOD, and so not available on the TiVo. More importantly, they are constantly changing channel assignments. It's slowed down considerably, but for a time there were often 5 or 6 re-assignments a day.



solutionsetc said:


> Too much dead space. We don't need letters that take up 20+% of the screen height anymore. Search results (all lists for that matter) often show truncated titles, no details without navigating to another screen and back.


Here I agree completely.



solutionsetc said:


> Search result interfaces should work like the guide in that details are offered in an area at top for the selectedLine without having to navigate more screens.


Here, not. I prefer a layout like this.



solutionsetc said:


> Menus should be hierarchical or at least configurable (perhaps a favorites menu).


I agree with the configurable idea. The curent layout is easily understood even by elderly individuals with little or no technical expertise. That is important in a device targeted to a broad, technically unsophisticated demographic. Allowing those of us who are not technically sophisticated to configure a more challenging interface would be a bonus for those of us who would like to take advantage of such a feature. I have to admit if I were to pick one general area where the TiVo fails to excel it is a lack of configurable features.



solutionsetc said:


> I frequently change the DD output setting to PCM and back. Why should that take 5 screens and 7 button pushes?


To my recollection, I have never done this even once after having set it initially. I think that fact, extrapolated to the general populace, is why it takes 5 screens and 7 button pushes. I'm not saying it is a good thing, but I think that is why it is stuck way, way back in the back.



solutionsetc said:


> Fact is the majority of the interface is modal and obtuse


With a couple of exceptions, I would not qualify it as obtuse, at all. Quite to the contrary, I would say it is simplistic and self-evident. While the distinction is not necessarily a positive one, it is definitely so to a potential buyer who can't even handle e-mail (like my sister).



solutionsetc said:


> I wish I didn't have to either.


Actually, to an important extent, the prudent TiVo owner does not have to very much. I turn on the TV, bring up the NPL, select a show, an press <Play>. When I am done, I turn off the TV. That's almost the extent of my interaction with the TiVo. I let it take care of the rest.



solutionsetc said:


> Yup. The entire multiscreen hierarchy for most menu sets can be done on one screen with today's resolution. Tivo Search showed some promise even with all of its wasted space, but the new interface has taken a real step backward.


I don't use Search very much at all. Once every two weeks, I bring up the list of HD movies and select 8 or 10 for recording. Otherwise, I let the Season Passes, Wishists, and Suggestions do their work and don'y worry about it. Of course I do have to set up the season passes and the Wishlists, but that is a pretty rare thing, and they are right at the top of the menu structure.



solutionsetc said:


> It should be a symbiotic relationship. It originally set out to be just that, but not anymore. I don't know where you are seeing a lot of activity. I see some pretty dusty tools.


Some of the enhancements are as little as 6 months old. Most of the features available today were not available 5 years ago. Subjectively it may feel like nothing is happening, but that is in large measure becasue the advances have been steady and incrementally minor. One does not notice the addition of one tiny feature here and another there, but the end result is a very significant, albeit gradual and momentarily unremarkable evolution.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

Got 11.0K, no E, yesterday.

Thanks TiVo, I'll take any updates, even if I can't tell the difference.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

adone36 said:


> orangeboy said:
> 
> 
> > adone36 said:
> ...


I'm not sure what makes you think my original post was irrelevant.

But since it appears you didn't take the time to actually follow along with the thread, I've included the post(s) where my comment was relevant to the discussion. I've even *bolded* the exact sentence that I replied to. The link I posted was for a (now defunct) company that was a direct competitor of TiVo in the DVR market, that documented the changes to their software. Here's perhaps a better link for an example: http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/replaytv/softwareupgrade.asp


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

TiVoJerry said:


> 1> a fix for when you lose your connection to Netflix while streaming. In the past, boxes were certain to lock up. Now you can exit to TiVo Central or LiveTV and resume viewing when your broadband connection to Netflix is restored.
> *you may sometimes see a frozen frame of video from Netflix or a blank screen. This usually lasts less than 15 seconds, although there were a few reports of it lasting over 90 seconds.


Jerry...a number of us are experiencing similar problems with Netflix reboots and freezes on our TiVo Premieres. A thread discussing this is located here. Will there be an update to address those units soon?


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

dlfl said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by dcstager View Post
> Jerry, Is there any chance TiVo will attempt to fix the SDV/Tuning Adapter bug? This is the one where you get blank recordings "video not available" sometimes. I believe the fix was within Tivo's control, even if it's not strictly Tivo's fault. I realize there's not going to be major changes for the series 3, but if this one bug got fixed, the TiVo would regain it's essential reliability.
> 
> ...


+1 This one is at the top of my hit list.... Fix it and I will be a very happy camper.


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## 84lion (Jan 23, 2009)

Yesterday I noticed that my Tivo HD wasn't outputting to our Vizio HDTV via HDMI. Checked and my Tivo HD does have the new firmware. I manually rebooted the unit and the HDMI still doesn't work. *Update - my Tivo HD HDMI output is still working properly - It's the Vizio HDMI input that's not working. TV is still under warranty so that's a relief. Sorry to suspect the Tivo for causing the issue!


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

TiVoJerry said:


> The Netflix app judged your network speed and sends you the highest quality version of the program asset that your network can handle....if the speed maintains. If your network speed varies greatly, the app will adjust.
> 
> Perhaps your network is not ready for prime time.


Nope. Nice try at deflecting fault, though. TiVo's implementation of netflix simply sucks.

speedtest.net, when run on a laptop connected to the same wireless AP as the Tivo, reports 18 Mbps D/L, 3 Mbps U/L. Netflix HD is reported to need less than 1/3 of that.

That laptop streams Netflix perfectly. Wii streams Netflix perfectly. All through the same network as the TiVo. TiVo is connected using a TiVo branded wireless dongle. TiVo is the only device with problems.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

m.s said:


> Nope. Nice try at deflecting fault, though. TiVo's implementation of netflix simply sucks.
> 
> speedtest.net, when run on a laptop connected to the same wireless AP as the Tivo, reports 18 Mbps D/L, 3 Mbps U/L. Netflix HD is reported to need less than 1/3 of that.
> 
> That laptop streams Netflix perfectly. Wii streams Netflix perfectly. All through the same network as the TiVo. TiVo is connected using a TiVo branded wireless dongle. TiVo is the only device with problems.


I am not making any statements about the quality of the Tivo Netflix app, but a couple of observations about your testing methodology there. Wifi is not a reliable network in any way shape or form. Reliability generally includes consistent throughput, consistent and reasonable latency, and very few dropped packets. Consumers in general don't understand this, in fact I recently read an article about internet subscribers using Wifi. It stated on average that the throughput is only 70% of their net connection. That is on average, which means I am sure there were plenty at 100% but just as many at 40%. Now think how it has to get to that number. It is dropped packets. If the packets are resent, then they are out of order and latent which is not good for streaming. If they are UDP, they are lost. (Now if this is the problem for Netflix the data rate needs to go down, which causes the app to stop and rebuffer.) Next, up a speedtest tells you nothing about the reliability of the network. It just tells you your average throughput. As for using another wireless device that doesn't tell you much. You are using a different adapter with a different location (probably more out in the open and farther away from other electronics, which helps its performance). In the end even if your network isn't the problem it could be your provider's network that is. I recently moved from TWC in upstate NY to Cox in NoVA. With the same internal network setup, I have 0 problems in NoVA. I didn't have crashing issues in NY, but I had constant rebuffering. Again, I am not defending Tivo's Netflix app, because I think it could be more robust. Tivo gets different streams from Netflix than Wii (never HD) and PC, so you can't really compare. However, it is very network sensitive and I bet most of your problems would go away if you had a more reliable internet connection. That might mean something on your provider's end, your cable modem, your router, and yes even the Tivo wireless adapter isn't good enough for the connection. Now this isn't for sure, but it is definitely along the lines of what I and many others have observed about the network connection and Netflix.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

m.s said:


> speedtest.net, when run on a laptop connected to the same wireless AP as the Tivo, reports 18 Mbps D/L, 3 Mbps U/L. Netflix HD is reported to need less than 1/3 of that...


Irrelevant unless speedtest.net is being hosted on the Netflix servers. One bad router between you and Netflix is enough to cause problems.


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## dcstager (Feb 16, 2002)

The SDV/TA missed recordings bug is still evident after this latest upgrade. I realize they didn't claim to be fixing it in this, however, just for the record it's still there.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

socrplyr said:


> I am not making any statements about the quality of the Tivo Netflix app, but a couple of observations about your testing methodology there.


I've been a network engineer for over 15 years. I know how to characterize and test networks, wireless and otherwise. This is a TiVo issue, not a network one.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

orangeboy said:


> Irrelevant unless speedtest.net is being hosted on the Netflix servers. One bad router between you and Netflix is enough to cause problems.


Absolutely incorrect. If TiVo only has servers at their location in CA, and there is poor bandwidth/latency to the east coast (over which neither TiVo or their customers have control), then it behooves them to contract with Akamai, or similar, for distributed services. Failing that, their Netflix app needs to be able to deal with reality, and step down resolution when appropriate. Sitting there, pausing and rebuffering every 10 seconds, is either poor design, or poor implementation.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

m.s said:


> Failing that, their Netflix app needs to be able to deal with reality, and step down resolution when appropriate. Sitting there, pausing and rebuffering every 10 seconds, is either poor design, or poor implementation.


I've seen TiVo do exactly that...step down the resolution when it thinks the network speeds or bandwidth aren't adequate...to the point where the PQ was unacceptable. So TiVo does do that. FWIW we have 25/25 broadband and our network using an Apple Airport Extreme is rock solid and our house is "hardwired" with CAT5e throughout so it's not a network or WiFi issue.

When you start streaming Netflix initially a pop-up screen shows the download quality with a number of bars. If it hits the highest bar an "HD" icon appears. However I have also seen it rebuffer periodically with Netflix Instant Queue streams. I've seen the same thing with my Apple TV2 as well as with our Samsung BR Disc Player. That leads me to believe it is more of a Netflix and/or broadband provider issue than TiVo. There are many, many forums that discuss this very problem with Netflix streaming.

That said, because TiVo has the ability to "step down" resolution we usually watch Instant Queue on our Apple TV2. More often than not it's fine, but I'd rather put up with a re-buffer pause now and then than lousy PQ. YMMV of course.

For the best experience we still order Blu-ray discs. I hope solid 1080p (or higher) over the Interwebs will be a reality some day...but that day isn't here just yet.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

m.s said:


> orangeboy said:
> 
> 
> > Irrelevant unless speedtest.net is being hosted on the Netflix servers. One bad router between you and Netflix is enough to cause problems.
> ...


What?! 

I could care less if I can get a 10gbps connection to a speedtest host in New York/China/the moon and I'm only getting a 250kbps connection to Netflix in California/Georgia/Texas/wherever. The hops to the Netflix Servers will not be the same hops to a speedtest host, unless like I said, Netflix hosts a speedtest app on their servers.


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

orangeboy said:


> What?!
> 
> I could care less if I can get a 10gbps connection to a speedtest host in New York/China/the moon and I'm only getting a 250kbps connection to Netflix in California/Georgia/Texas/wherever. The hops to the Netflix Servers will not be the same hops to a speedtest host, unless like I said, Netflix hosts a speedtest app on their servers.


I'm with you on this - the other poster does not seem to have a reasonable understanding of the facts as they apply to this situation.

I am relatively new to Netflix - only started using the service one month ago, but here are my observations. Personally, I do not have any complaints about the TiVo implementation of NetFlix streaming. It is quite similar to the implementation on my Sony Blu-Ray player, and significantly better in several ways. I do not and never will own a game box, so I cannot comment how it compares with them.

I have seen the re-buffering issue, and it happens equally on both my TiVo boxes and my Sony. I capture the vast majority of movies that I watch, so this re-buffering (or any problems with PQ, sound, etc.) is particularly problematic for me - I want my movies to be perfect. Because of this, I have paid particular attention to when these problems occur in an effort to either fix or avoid them. From what I can tell, the problem is virtually ALL either internet or NetFlix server, and nothing to do with TiVo or my network.

First of all, when I have traced the source for all of the programs exhibiting the re-buffering, they are all coming from servers in Phoenix. Doing speed tests from various servers on the internet has sometimes shown a correlation with low internet performance to servers in L.A. (the most likely direct route past Phoenix from North Texas that may utilize some of the same trunks), but I have not yet been able to identify any correlation between these re-buffering times and any speed test performance issues with servers from any other part of the nation (including local servers). This tells me the problem is probably NOT related to congestion with my local ISP or the main routes into North Texas. Of course, there is no way to tell if a particular problem might be from a unique source or more common source without running constant traces. Unfortunately, I have not found a server in Phoenix to test with. It certainly would be nice if NetFlix would provide a speed test app that could be accessed by their subscribers.

But frankly, I suspect the issue may often be with NetFlix themselves. Maybe their servers are simply overloaded at times? I have noticed that the re-buffering issues are particularly common during prime-time hours when I suspect their load might be greatest. Even more interesting is that I have seen numerous instances where movies streamed perfectly all morning on Sundays, and then significant re-buffering started just past noon when I suspect many people are returning from church and firing up the computers or sitting down to movies.

The bottom line is simply that the issue is complicated, the internet is constantly changing, and trying to blame it all on a box that you just happen to be mad about does not make sense.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

However, there have been numerous posts scattered over this forum over the last year or more of people who have TiVo and some other box (e.g., Roku) getting Netflix who say the TiVo is markedly inferior on the rebuffering issue. I can't remember one post from someone saying the TiVo was superior.


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

TiVoJerry said:


> Technically, the HD assets are not the same as those for the Roku or Wii. TiVo Netflix assets are in a different format in order to play on a TiVo DVR. I'm not arguing that the symptom itself isn't egregious or annoying (it's _*supposed *_to measure speed and adjust to a lower quality stream...not just pause and retrieve), just that the file type & sizes are different.
> 
> Keep in mind that there are multiple "assets" of different sizes (I believe at least 4 per program) that can be sent depending on exactly how much bandwidth you have available when you first access the stream. Lower bandwidth means you will stream a lower quality (smaller) asset in order to avoid interruptions as much as possible. If bandwidth drops significantly, the app has to adjust. The larger the asset, the less room there is to allow for significant bandwidth change.
> 
> My comment was directed at m.s' statement that the Wii did not have the "same problem". It's not an "apples to apples" comparison, especially if the Wii isn't even streaming HD. Filesize differences are a key factor, especially if you have marginal bandwidth anywhere between the DVR and Netflix. Perhaps it would've been fairer for me to say that the _connection _might not be ready for primetime, as the network may not be weakest link in the chain.





dlfl said:


> However, there have been numerous posts scattered over this forum over the last year or more of people who have TiVo and some other box (e.g., Roku) getting Netflix who say the TiVo is markedly inferior on the rebuffering issue. I can't remember one post from someone saying the TiVo was superior.


I quoted most of TiVoJerry's reply form #72 in this thread simply to illustrate the main point I tried to make - this whole issue of NetFlix streaming is NOT as simple and most people would like to imagine it is. It is pointless to try to compare different products with different levels of video definition. If you only want SD video, then by all means use a product that only delivers SD.

I do not know if my Sony Blu-Ray player handles the bandwidth issues in the same way that TiVo does, nor do I know if it streams the same "assets". But I do know that the performance between the two devices are virtually identical during times when I see the re-buffering, and the true PQ between the devices seems to be identical on my large screen HD TVs. For all programs where the NetFlix web site identifies HD streaming available, I DO always get HD on my TiVos, and I almost never have any re-buffering of the HD streams except during the prime time periods I identified above. *In my opinion, the TiVo NetFlix interface is SUPERIOR to the Sony Blu-Ray Netflix interface in most aspects.* On the specific issue of re-buffering some streams, the TiVo performance and frequency is IDENTICAL with the Sony Blu-Ray box.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

orangeboy said:


> What?!


You sure are.



> I could care less if I can get a 10gbps connection to a speedtest host in New York/China/the moon and I'm only getting a 250kbps connection to Netflix in California/Georgia/Texas/wherever. The hops to the Netflix Servers will not be the same hops to a speedtest host, unless like I said, Netflix hosts a speedtest app on their servers.


The intermediate network is TiVo's problem to deal with, not mine. They either need to distribute servers across their service area, or make the application handle Internet slowdowns properly. Wii has no problem. Netflix streaming to a PC has no problem. It's not a home wireless/network problem. It's consistent, so not related to some temporary Internet outage along the path. It's not a problem which can be blamed on the customer, it's a TiVo problem. If you believe it's caused by a bandwidth issue at their end, then they should upgrade from the DS-1 lines they're using.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

I'm getting the impression that you believe the Netflix streams are being routed through TiVo corp. You keep mentioning "TiVo's problem", and distributing TiVo servers for greater availability. The video distribution comes from NETFLIX, not TiVo. It's similar to TiVo Desktop or pyTivo. When I request a video from my home PC, do you honestly believe that the video is required to go through TiVo's servers to reach the DVR that is located on the same LAN as my PC? It absolutely does NOT do that. PC transfers could take DAYS given my abysmal upload cap imposed by my ISP, instead of the minutes that I experience.

As far as _consistent_ problems with Netflix, I rarely if ever encounter such problems streaming from Netflix. I've literally spent hours watching Netflix over the past couple days, catching up on the Ax Men series, and Battlestar Galactica. Ax Men was in SD, so the bandwidth required was lower. Battlestar Galactica is all HD, and I have yet to encounter a drop in quality, or any disruption at all. So do I have some magic direct connection to the "TiVo" servers that allows me no problems? I think not. Have I done my best to ensure an adequate LAN environment? Yes. I ditched wireless or powerline adapters, and opted for MoCA adapters, since running CAT 6 would prove difficult in my apartment.

With that, I'm bowing out of this discussion.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

V7Goose said:


> ....... *In my opinion, the TiVo NetFlix interface is SUPERIOR to the Sony Blu-Ray Netflix interface in most aspects.* On the specific issue of re-buffering some streams, the TiVo performance and frequency is IDENTICAL with the Sony Blu-Ray box.


Well if shouting and repetition will make your point, consider it made!


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

Guys relax a bit here.

orangeboy and m.s,
Neither of you are fully correct here.

I tried to just make statements to the previous poster earlier, because his/her methodology really told him/her nothing about performance of Netflix on Tivo.

The Tivo needs to be able to handle some amount of network fluctuations. (Opinion, the current amount it handles is either too low and/or it takes too long to rebuffer and/or it buffers too often to a higher rate requiring another buffer period.) However, there is a point at which the Tivo cannot be expected to handle poor network performance well. (It should never crash the machine, which appears to be what was attempted to be fixed.) It is hard to say at what point the handover between Tivo's responsibility and the network's responsibility falls. For example, my prior admonishment of wireless networks, was meant to encourage people to try it out wired. If it did work wired, then that suggests that the wireless network is not good enough (might be fixed by changing channels/routers/positioning/etc). Again, I think Tivo needs to work on their implementation to make it more robust, but that doesn't mean that it would make it work for every user who wants to use wireless instead of wired.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

Don't jump on TiVoJerry too hard guys, or we might lose his input altogether. 
I worked for Avaya business telephones customer service, and no matter what I said, management refused to implement policies that would make customers happier and make the company more money in the long run. And anyone that revealed too much info to customers was fired. It doesn't make sense, but it is true of most corporate America. Toyota is a good example.


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## TiVoJerry (Jul 26, 2005)

Don't worry, I'm not feeling jumped on. Everyone just wants to watch a Netflix program without being interrupted. I feel the same way!


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

I've watched a fair amount of whole TV series and movies (SD and HD) via Netflix on our 2 original S3's and had almost no rebuffering or interruptions in the stream so chalk me up as very happy with the Netflix experience on TiVo. Internet is Comcast cable broadband with 6mbps down/1mbps up in a relatively small town so throughput typically measures as advertised both with speed tests and file transfers to and from work.

Scott


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

With the newer version 11.0k, the clock and CC can co-exist together again.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> I've watched a fair amount of whole TV series and movies (SD and HD) via Netflix on our 2 original S3's and had almost no rebuffering or interruptions in the stream so chalk me up as very happy with the Netflix experience on TiVo.


I have similar experience on my THD on Time Warner @ 10M down / 1M up.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

deandashl said:


> Got 11.0K, no E, yesterday.


What is the significance of "no E"? Is this the full release vs an (just guessing here) early release?


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

mjh said:


> What is the significance of "no E"? Is this the full release vs an (just guessing here) early release?


11.0k = Full version release
11.0k.E1 = beta release


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Can someone confirm that podcasts *used* to have a 10 item limit? I swear this was true even very recently.. But I just found over the weekend I can set them to All (just like regular season passes -- though the warning puts "All" into the text as if it were a number)..


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Those of you who use MRV and pull videos from your PC with TiVo Desktop, keep an eye out.
Those that automatically suggest alternatives, don't bother. I want to help root out a possible bug, if it exists.

Symptom #1. When selecting a video to transfer from the PC, blue LED comes on only momentarily and transfer never starts. Recording history shows:








None of which applies to my situation.

Symptom #2. Selecting a video to transfer from PC results in a repeat transfer (MRV) from another Tivo.

The latter happened to me this morning. Last night I MRV'ed a show from my bedroom TivoHD, initiated from another (living room) TivoHD. Show transferred without problem.
This morning, I used the living room TivoHD to initiate a transfer from the PC, but it started transferring the show I MRV'ed last light from the bedroom Tivo instead. 
I stopped the transfer, deleted the 'extra' show, and went to the bedroom Tivo and deleted the show that I had previously MRV'ed.
Went back to the living room TivoHD to retry the transfer from PC. Transfer from PC worked.
These two symptoms have happened only once and I haven't (yet) put extra effort into trying to reproduce, but I thought I'd throw this out there for others who might consider trying to reproduce this possible bug.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

"BOLO"?


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

wmcbrine said:


> "BOLO"?


Be On the LookOut.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> "BOLO"?


Let me guess. You do not watch COPS or America's Most Wanted?


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

I've run into the repeat transfer thing when testing transfers for stuff like speed and lost metadata. And yes, my testing included both transfers from TiVo to TiVo and transfers to/from TiVo Desktop. Near as I recall, the repeat transfer problem was 100 % repeatable, and it always was related to stopping a previous transfer before it completed. It was as if the pulling TiVo kept the original program to transfer in a queue until the entire transfer completed, and manually stopping the transfer did not clear that queue. Any subsequent attempts to transfer into the same box would trigger the aborted transfer to start all over again, and the new transfer request would queue up behind it. I _think_ that the problem only affected direct TiVo to TiVo transfers, but I cannot remember for sure.

The whole MRV process with TiVo is full of bad design issues and ugly bugs anyway, so I didn't bother to follow up on this one.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Yeah... While I have not seen #1... #2 has been around for a long time. And it doesn't have to be from a PC. Queuing just about any transfer back to back usually results in a duplicate show being transferred.

It has been reported for years and Tivo obviously doesn't give a damn about it (like so many other things). I get the feeling MRV's and TTGO's days are numbered.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Interesting. I've had my current setup since 2008 and this is the first time I recall seeing something like this. 
I was just thinking earlier that it means my Tivos (and possibly the router) are due for a reboot. I will do that if it happens again.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

TiVoJerry said:


> ..........11.0k is a small update for the S3 & THD (non Premiere) boxes that carries two fixes.
> 1> a fix for when you lose your connection to Netflix while streaming. In the past, boxes were certain to lock up. Now you can exit to TiVo Central or LiveTV and resume viewing when your broadband connection to Netflix is restored.
> *you may sometimes see a frozen frame of video from Netflix or a blank screen. This usually lasts less than 15 seconds, although there were a few reports of it lasting over 90 seconds.
> ...............


Judging by my experiences, and those of others, reported in **this thread**, 11.0k has introduced a new bug in which a connection cannnot be established with Netflix and an error message something like "An error has occurred...." appears. Rebooting the TiVo seems to be the only way to clear this problem -- very objectionable!


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

New Features in 11.0k
New Menus 
Tivo Premiere Web based menus, when you click "explore this program"


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## JimPa (Oct 25, 2006)

Man.....you'd think they'd get this worked out by now.


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