# Where is my TiVo Series 4 Extender!!!!



## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

Where is my TiVo Series 4 Extender!!!! I would love to add an extender to a TV and watch recorder items from the main unit.

My ghetto way is an Asus EeeBox PC EB1501 and TiVo desktop software and Windows Media Center.

Why can't TiVo create a simple extender for the Series 4!!!!


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

I really don't think an extender works well if you only have 2 tuners. They could do an extender that didn't support live tv, but I don't see the benefit in that. I really don't see it happening until they bump up the number of tuners.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

rainwater said:


> I really don't think an extender works well if you only have 2 tuners. They could do an extender that didn't support live tv, but I don't see the benefit in that. I really don't see it happening until they bump up the number of tuners.


Apple TV is just an extender and it's out in the market.

Microsoft Xbox 360 has Media Center Extender and it works.

TiVo can create a small device for cheap. If WD can do it with no monthly cost, then TiVo can do it and charge a small fee.

Why not??

Make a TiVo Series 4 Extender for $99 and charge $2.00 per month.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Microsoft Xbox 360 has Media Center Extender and it works.
> 
> TiVo can create a small device for cheap. If WD can do it with no monthly cost, then TiVo can do it and charge a small fee.


Microsoft also makes a lot of money from the licensing for the Xbox so is able to take a loss on the hardware initially. How many other companies are still in the extender market? I realize until we have cable card tuners there is little incentive to do so, but WD could have guaranteed even more sales if it worked as an extender also. Of course we also don't know what is actually needed with TiVo or 7MC to function as an extender. It could very well be the most costly components of the TiVo.

Also I would imagine the discounts WD and Microsoft get compared to TiVo is pretty significant.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Apple TV is just an extender and it's out in the market.


Yeah, and all 5 people that own one are really enjoying it. 

TiVo wouldn't create an extender that didn't require actual TiVos.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Tivo already has an extender. It's called a Tivo. If you want Tivo in another location then get another Tivo. Connect them via a home network and you've got the ability to share recordings between them. How simple is that?


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

rainwater said:


> TiVo wouldn't create an extender that didn't require actual TiVos.


Then why don't they???


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> ...
> 
> TiVo can create a small device for cheap. If WD can do it with no monthly cost, then TiVo can do it and charge a small fee.
> 
> ...


they have it- just not quite at your price points- it's called a tivo premiere and it costs 299 and only 10 bucks a month to use.

thing is it even comes with 2 more tuners for "FREE"!


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Do you have a link where I can order that? I couldn't find an extender option on TiVo.com 

Of course though if streaming still doesn't work on the Premieres I don't know if I could call it an extender especially if you aren't able to transfer a show.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Do you have a link where I can order that? I couldn't find an extender option on TiVo.com
> 
> Of course though if streaming still doesn't work on the Premieres I don't know if I could call it an extender especially if you aren't able to transfer a show.


(puts on tivo marketing guy hat)

"Oh, our's is more robust that we copy your content rather than stream it. That helps people with slow networks."

(I then would promptly change the subject when someone asks me about CCI bytes)


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Right now, they won't for a few reasons.

1. Their might not be as much as an ROI as you think. I couldn't say how much it would cost to develop, but they may need to use a similar SOC as the Premiere, with a different storage/OS than a full TiVo. With all that, the retail price might not be as low as you think.

2. The current MRV scheme might not work well with a disk-less extender. Disk-drives and memory cost money. The way to make an affordable extender would stream, using minimal flash storage for the OS, and minimal RAM.

3. They might have a problem losing full subscriptions.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

If all you want to do is view HD content from a TiVo in another room, I would venture to guess there are options available that cost less than another TiVo (assuming you already have the necessary infrastructure in place).


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## RangerOne (Dec 30, 2006)

The Premier opens up an interesting possibility:

Since it has beefier hardware, it may be able to do transfers much quicker. I use iTivo on my Mac and it does take a while to download a show (mind you I am going wireless). You can use apps like iTivo to automatically download shows (i haven't tried it with tivo desktop in a while). If it did this quick enough, it could be pretty seamless. Once its downloaded, you can distribute to a variety of front ends that don't require a monthly subscription.

But it would be a lot easier if TiVo just came out with an extender.


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## SMWinnie (Aug 17, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> (puts on tivo marketing guy hat) "Oh, our's is more robust that we copy your content rather than stream it. That helps people with slow networks."
> 
> (I then would promptly change the subject when someone asks me about CCI bytes)


Yeah. This. QFT. Whatever.

"Extender" can mean a few different things, but the best have at least three relevant attributes:
Let you view anything from the host (and the more you can play natively the better).
Modest (compared to host) one-off hardware cost.
Host and extender can watch different things.
"Buy another TiVo" as an extender strategy fails all three. In fact, even if you are sufficiently well-heeled that you don't care about dropping $600 (lifetimed promo Premiere) on an extender, the TiVo solution doesn't work.

By not implementing streaming, TiVo is inviting their former evangelist base to consider alternatives.

Take my family as an example. I used to recommend TiVo to everyone. I have an old Pentium II computer set up with two PATA trays, an MFSLive CD in the CD-ROM drive and a couple of Torx wrenches to help new TiVo owners on day 91. But I haven't recommended TiVo in years now. For the last few years, that's been because of the cablecos' strategic footdragging on CableCard and SDV. But now TiVo is choosing to fall behind the curve through their refusal/inability to implement streaming.

Now when visitors come over, I'm not showing off TiVo. I'm showing them various streamers pulling files off of my WHS box running Sage. (Heck, if I show someone the TiVo, I'm usually pointing out how crappy it is at streaming. Netflix limps. Streamed episodes that trick-play in real time with the Popcorn Hour need to spool up on the TiVo - and they only work because of the excellent volunteer work of the pyTivo gang. Usw.)

I used to love TiVo. Now I have a stranded investment in TiVo and am using it due to inertia.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

And how is your Sage/WHS setup recording Cablecard-protected content? Oh yeah, it's not unless you're doing the unreliable Firewire or way-too-expensive HD-PVR solutions, so you're talking apples and oranges with a Tivo or Moxi. Once the new Cablecard tuners are out for Win7 MC HTPCs, I'll grant you the beef.


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## SMWinnie (Aug 17, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> And how is your Sage/WHS setup recording Cablecard-protected content? Oh yeah, it's not unless you're doing the unreliable Firewire or way-too-expensive HD-PVR solutions, so you're talking apples and oranges with a Tivo or Moxi. Once the new Cablecard tuners are out for Win7 MC HTPCs, I'll grant you the beef.


Ignore for a moment the current availability of the Hauppauge 1212 HD-PVR. Also ignore for the moment, as you suggest, the upcoming Ceton and Hauppauge Win7MC tuners. For argument's sake, let's even ignore the networkable CableCARD HDHomeRun that SiliconDust announced at CEA.

If we ignore those alternatives then, yes, the TiVo can get CableCARD content that Sage can't. What the TiVo can't do is share that media over a home network, even with another TiVo - and this thread's topic is extenders.

Just a couple of years ago, my family used the TiVo for essentially all our viewing. If we were watching a DVD, it was about even money as to whether that was a physical disc in the DVD player or a rip sitting on the hard drive. Everything else was somewhere in Now Playing. Now, we use our Moto6412 more than the TiVo and use our Popcorn Hours more than that.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

I've used TiVo MRV and Media Center and Extenders (my current setup) and I have to say I'm convinced the best solution is a multimaster DVR setup where all the DVRs in a home work as one. Now obviously no one does this yet, but when a hard drive or power supply failed in my TiVo I only lost TV on one TV, not on every TV in my house. 

I will say that I'll choose the Extender model over TiVo's MRV, but I hope that the Premier hardware eventually lets them make a real multi-room DVR that has one ToDo and Now Playing list that is accessible on every TV in the house. The user shouldn't need to be concerned with what tuner is being used to record which show or where it is stored, that's what DVRs are for.


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## jonra (Apr 1, 2005)

If Tivo wants more revenue & PROFIT this is how to do it. I'd buy a 4th & 5th Tivo on this sort of plan. This plan is great for their Loyal customers & allow them to KEEP the large base of customers!
per month charge per TIVO
Tivo 1 - $12.95
Tivo 2 - $9.95
Tivo 3 - $6.95
Tivo 4 - $3.95
Tivo 5 - $ .95


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

jonra said:


> If Tivo wants more revenue & PROFIT this is how to do it. I'd buy a 4th & 5th Tivo on this sort of plan. This plan is great for their Loyal customers & allow them to KEEP the large base of customers!
> per month charge per TIVO
> Tivo 1 - $12.95
> Tivo 2 - $9.95
> ...


Well except that TiVo loses money on the hardware sales, and still has to pay per subscriber from what I have read for the guide data it is supplying those additional TiVos.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

SMWinnie said:


> Ignore for a moment the current availability of the Hauppauge 1212 HD-PVR. Also ignore for the moment, as you suggest, the upcoming Ceton and Hauppauge Win7MC tuners. For argument's sake, let's even ignore the networkable CableCARD HDHomeRun that SiliconDust announced at CEA.


Wow, a CableCARD HDHomeRun. There is a deity. That might be the one thing that can finally get me to give up TiVo. Maybe. Well, maybe not. I don't think I'm willing to run Windows 7. If some enterprising hacker makes it work with MythTV, I may just be swayed, however.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Where is my TiVo Series 4 Extender!!!! I would love to add an extender to a TV and watch recorder items from the main unit.
> 
> My ghetto way is an Asus EeeBox PC EB1501 and TiVo desktop software and Windows Media Center.
> 
> Why can't TiVo create a simple extender for the Series 4!!!!


Answer == Get a Moxi if you need a multi room solution, it seems clear that Tivo does not consider this a priority.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> Well except that TiVo loses money on the hardware sales, and still has to pay per subscriber from what I have read for the guide data it is supplying those additional TiVos.


Tivo does not lose money on hardware sales. The guide data is free from numerous places on the web if they choose to pay for it thats their business model.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

RangerOne said:


> The Premier opens up an interesting possibility:
> 
> Since it has beefier hardware, it may be able to do transfers much quicker. I use iTivo on my Mac and it does take a while to download a show (mind you I am going wireless). You can use apps like iTivo to automatically download shows (i haven't tried it with tivo desktop in a while). If it did this quick enough, it could be pretty seamless. Once its downloaded, you can distribute to a variety of front ends that don't require a monthly subscription.
> 
> But it would be a lot easier if TiVo just came out with an extender.


No, it can't. The prermier has a 100 meg connection (insanely stupid of tivo, but they seem to be good at stupid right now). This means 10MB/sec is the MAX you will be doing. A 1 hour HD show is ~ 5GB. At 10MB/sec (the absolute max) you are talking 10 minutes to transfer. Sorry this will never be good enough, especially not when so many choices in the market can stream NOW TODAY live. AT&T Uverse, Moxi, etc .. Tivo .. not even mentioned


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

riekl said:


> Answer == Get a Moxi if you need a multi room solution, it seems clear that Tivo does not consider this a priority.


tivo has a multi room solution- it's just not the extender model. THe extender model is the one they dont consider a priority.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

riekl said:


> Tivo does not lose money on hardware sales. The guide data is free from numerous places on the web if they choose to pay for it thats their business model.


please show a "Free" place that permits commercial collection and redistribution. I maybe be wrong but i do not beleive such a thing exists.

someone somewhere is paying for it if it is for commerical redistibution.

And you might want to double check your facts about losing money on hardware sales- it's possible that in some recent quarters they have not lost money but it's NOT a profit center for sure.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

not a big finance guy- but from the oct 31 financial statment for that quarter (last one i could find)

hardware revenue = 9,808,000
cost of hardware revenue = 14,436,000 

again not a finance guy so maybe missing somehting but that looks like a pretty big loss to me.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

riekl said:


> ... A 1 hour HD show is ~ 5GB. At 10MB/sec (the absolute max) you are talking 10 minutes to transfer. Sorry this will never be good enough, especially not when so many choices in the market can stream NOW TODAY live. AT&T Uverse, Moxi, etc .. Tivo .. not even mentioned


Not following- why is it a big deal to take 10 minutes to transfer an hour show? Since you can watch it as it transfers that's way better than realtime.

Only time it's an issue if you want/need to skip ahead a bunch.

but in any event- I agree they need to get streaming moving- not necessarily for the speed issue- but for the CCI flag problem.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

riekl said:


> Tivo does not lose money on hardware sales. The guide data is free from numerous places on the web if they choose to pay for it thats their business model.


If by "free," you mean that you can violate the license under which the website provides you with the data if you use it programmatically, then yes, it is free from many places around the web.

Last I checked, the only service providing properly licensed unbundled schedule data costs $20 a year, and isn't available to folks like TiVo, only us end users.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> Not following- why is it a big deal to take 10 minutes to transfer an hour show? Since you can watch it as it transfers that's way better than realtime.
> 
> Only time it's an issue if you want/need to skip ahead a bunch.
> 
> but in any event- I agree they need to get streaming moving- not necessarily for the speed issue- but for the CCI flag problem.


I'm not sure about you of course, but we frequently start a show in the living room and decide its time for bed and head upstairs to finish it. With the Tivo this is not possible.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> not a big finance guy- but from the oct 31 financial statment for that quarter (last one i could find)
> 
> hardware revenue = 9,808,000
> cost of hardware revenue = 14,436,000
> ...


They are likely funneling other costs such as development into those figures. The actual hardware is dirt cheap. They use a $60 HD, a $20 power supply, the motherboard with networking + 2 cable card connectors and the video hookups is likely around $80. There is nothing to these devices.

PS3 has far more complex engineering and cost of parts not to mention the blu-ray drive. If Tivo loses a penny selling a Tivo HD @ $270 then they shouldn't be in the business.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

wierdo said:


> Wow, a CableCARD HDHomeRun. There is a deity. That might be the one thing that can finally get me to give up TiVo. Maybe. Well, maybe not. I don't think I'm willing to run Windows 7. If some enterprising hacker makes it work with MythTV, I may just be swayed, however.


But SiliconDust cheaped out and only put 2 tuners in the box, even though an M-card is capable of driving 6 tuners. So the upcoming Ceton 4-tuner card is probably the way to go, as it is network-aware and can also be shared among multiple PCs. Cheaper than two HD Homeruns too and you won't have to pay for an extra digital outlet for the 2nd Cablecard.

You will never see a Cablecard solution for Myth. I run Myth for HD clear QAM and would love to see it too, but it's not going to happen.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

riekl said:


> They are likely funneling other costs such as development into those figures. The actual hardware is dirt cheap. They use a $60 HD, a $20 power supply, the motherboard with networking + 2 cable card connectors and the video hookups is likely around $80. There is nothing to these devices.
> 
> PS3 has far more complex engineering and cost of parts not to mention the blu-ray drive. If Tivo loses a penny selling a Tivo HD @ $270 then they shouldn't be in the business.


You make a VERY good point! TiVo could save a BUNDLE on labor if they just sold a box of parts, and stuck a sticker on the box: "Some Assembly Required"


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

SMWinnie said:


> Ignore for a moment the current availability of the Hauppauge 1212 HD-PVR. Also ignore for the moment, as you suggest, the upcoming Ceton and Hauppauge Win7MC tuners. For argument's sake, let's even ignore the networkable CableCARD HDHomeRun that SiliconDust announced at CEA.
> 
> If we ignore those alternatives then, yes, the TiVo can get CableCARD content that Sage can't. What the TiVo can't do is share that media over a home network, even with another TiVo - and this thread's topic is extenders.


I didn't say ignore the HD-PVR alternative, I said it was too expensive. Not to mention that you have to rent dedicated HD STBs to drive them, which makes it a lot more expensive every month. And it's a kludge. I also said that you can compare an HTPC setup with Tivo/Moxi once the new tuners are out, but not now IMO because it's too expensive and ugly to do for Cablecard content.

Tivo can share anything other than protected content (i.e., non-CCI) across the network with other Tivos and PCs, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Should Tivo do extenders? Yes, they should, until they get the whole-house coop DVR setup that we all want. But we'll see how Moxi does with them first.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

riekl said:


> I'm not sure about you of course, but we frequently start a show in the living room and decide its time for bed and head upstairs to finish it. With the Tivo this is not possible.


works just fine at my house, and faster than real time. You may be speaking about your specific situation but you should be clearer about that.

oh - and your really silly cost of parts list - do you just want people to *not* take you seriously?
Hint - Sony sells games and Blu-ray DVDs and had to lower price of PS3 since it was not selling. For all we know Sony is taking a loss on the PS3 as well.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

riekl said:


> I'm not sure about you of course, but we frequently start a show in the living room and decide its time for bed and head upstairs to finish it. With the Tivo this is not possible.


that's totally possible on tivo.

you just hit the pause button on the tivo in the living room. then from the bedroom you choice 'transfer from paused point'

granted there are situations where there will be issues. (someone else just wants to watch the last half of an hour show or something). But for most uses the tivo method gets the job done. Except it is WORTHLESS for flagged content.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

riekl said:


> They are likely funneling other costs such as development into those figures. The actual hardware is dirt cheap. They use a $60 HD, a $20 power supply, the motherboard with networking + 2 cable card connectors and the video hookups is likely around $80. There is nothing to these devices.
> 
> PS3 has far more complex engineering and cost of parts not to mention the blu-ray drive. If Tivo loses a penny selling a Tivo HD @ $270 then they shouldn't be in the business.


they very well might add in some R&D in there but my understanding is the SEC and accounting standards wouldn't allow that. But I may be wrong.

But they biggie is there's more than a bag of parts.

there's a case, there's packaging, there's manuals and the like, there's an HDMI and power cable. While all tiny, it adds up.

You're house is made up of 2x4's that cost $1.77 and nails that are fractions of a penny after all....

besides parts there's cost to assemble, warehouse parts and completed boxes, and ship the boxes from china to best buy et al.

And tivo with a fraction of the volume isn't getting Sony's rates for any of that.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> that's totally possible on tivo.
> 
> you just hit the pause button on the tivo in the living room. then from the bedroom you choice 'transfer from paused point'
> 
> granted there are situations where there will be issues. (someone else just wants to watch the last half of an hour show or something). But for most uses the tivo method gets the job done. Except it is WORTHLESS for flagged content.


You also can't transfer while it's still recording in the living room. So if you have the Oscars in the buffer because you a half hour behind and you want to finish in the bedroom. Sorry for you until its finished recording.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

zalusky said:


> You also can't transfer while it's still recording in the living room. So if you have the Oscars in the buffer because you a half hour behind and you want to finish in the bedroom. Sorry for you until its finished recording.


yep-

that's totally true.

got to thank the friggin NFL for that one....

Hopefully tivo blows that off too at some point since everyone else ignored the NFL's wishes on that.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

I bet there are more Apple TV's than total TiVo Owned that are currently subscribed!!!

There are ONLY 1.4-1.6 million current and lifetime TiVo's and I bet Apple sells about 1 million in 6 months given Apple sells about 21 Million freaking iPods every 3 months. Apple has 40 BILLION in CASH.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

riekl said:


> No, it can't. The prermier has a 100 meg connection (insanely stupid of tivo, but they seem to be good at stupid right now). This means 10MB/sec is the MAX you will be doing. A 1 hour HD show is ~ 5GB. At 10MB/sec (the absolute max) you are talking 10 minutes to transfer. Sorry this will never be good enough, especially not when so many choices in the market can stream NOW TODAY live. AT&T Uverse, Moxi, etc .. Tivo .. not even mentioned


Even with the current S3 I can initiate a transfer of an hour long HD show and start watching it and still skip over all the commercials without having to wait for the transfer to catch up. It's already much faster than real time. If it could transfer that hour recording in 10 minutes instead of the current 20 to 30 minutes that would even be better.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

Streaming in real time doesn't mean you can't skip. In fact on Media Center you scan, fwd at any speed and skip to any point in the show (using the number keys to put the time you want to jump to). From the user's experience you can't tell you aren't on the actual DVR when using an extender (other than some missing features). 

I'm not saying this is easy or that the new TiVo hardware is capable, just that it is possible.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

bump


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## Quake97 (Apr 24, 2006)

Holy thread resurrection!

Joe


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