# Incorrect - Not Enough Free Space



## colinstewart (May 22, 2005)

I have had Tivo for several years, with a few upgrades and hacks but have not been able to resolve one very annoying problem.

I have loads of programs in my Now Playing, some Save Until I delete, some Auto Delete when space needed. 

I have programs scheduled in my To Do List for the next week or two.

There is a program on later tonight I wish to add to my To Do List or I wish to extend the End Record time of a scheduled program but Tivo won't let me, it tells me there is "NOT ENOUGH FREE SPACE"
 
This is infuriating as it has programs scheduled to record over the next two weeks so why can't I add a program in for tonight? Sensibly, it should remove programs at the end of the To Do List, re-adding them when space becomes available.

To have to go through and delete programs in my Now Playing or manually remove items from the To Do List is painful and annoying.

Anyone have a solution to this?

Thanks

Colin


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Please excuse the fatuous reply - but hey it's Christmas! - my obvious suggestion would be: get a bigger drive 

The less obvious suggestion would be to check that you don't have upcoming recordings marked as KUID. Normally, TiVo can manage the free space by bringing forward the scheduled deletion of current and/or upcoming recordings, but anything marked as KUID (even if it hasn't been recorded yet!) puts the kybosh on this.


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## colinstewart (May 22, 2005)

Thanks for the reply, but neither answers help.
Three things:-

* I do have huge disk space, I had a 120GB and a 40GB, now have a 250GB so haven't hit the problem recently but I will do soon.

* I do have programs both in Now Playing and To Do with KUID. That is irelevant to the problem. If there are items not recorded but in the To Do List for two weeks time why should that stop a program being added or increased in recording time NOW. I wouldn't not do a job today because I had something scheduled to do for two weeks time. If TIVO is calculating that there is enough space to schedule a program to record in two weeks time, then there is space to record a program now instead.

* If I watched something now and then deleted it, this clears free space. If I do not add anything to record, it will add programs in my To Do List for 2-3 weeks time depending on space and my Season Passes. After it has done that and I want to add something to record for tonight or tomorrow, I might not be able to as there is "Not Enough Space" but there was a little while ago when I deleted a program. That is silly.

Cheers

Colin


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## Cainam (May 25, 2004)

> I do have programs both in Now Playing and To Do with KUID. That is irelevant to the problem.


 In this example that is EXACTLY the problem. While you and I both know there will probably be enough space because you will delete things between now and then (e.g. the program you want to record now) that is not how Tivo sees it.

All Tivo sees is that there is enough space on the hard disk for 100 hours worth of programs (for example). With 50 hours already in "now playing" marked as KUID, and 40 hours in "to do list" marked as KUID, this means the only space it thinks it has left is 10 hours. This is for all your other scheduled shows in "to do list" that are not set to "KUID", plus anything you choose to record there and then.

If you think of KUID as meaning "this program is really, really important to me. Not only do I never want you to delete the program after it has recorded, I also want to you reserve capacity of my hard drive so there will be no problems with space when it comes time to record it", what Tivo is doing makes sense!

If there are things you really want to keep, it might be worthwhile only changing them to KUID after they gave recorded, and not before.

Happy Christmas!


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## colinstewart (May 22, 2005)

Hi! 

I understand what you are saying and the arguments that have been made about this
BUT 
it still remains that TIVO is scheduling programs for the future, blocking available disk space for these programs and not allowing me to add something in for now.

If it can't record something because there is no space, that is my fault.
If it deletes something automatically when I wanted to keep it, that is my fault. (Hence putting Save Until I Delete so I control my recordings).
If it won't let me schedule in a program for tonight because it has calculated there won't be enough space in TWO weeks to record something, then this is clearly not correct and TIVO is at fault.

I suppose this argument has gone around in circles and done to death many times before but it just seems ridiculous.

Another way of putting it:- this is similar to my computer turning round and stopping me from saving something to my hard disk even though there is space available because it has calculated that there will not be room in for me to save something in two weeks time. My computer cannot make that choice, the decision should be mine.

Tivo should allow me to make the decisions without have to change my settings and recalulate the To Do List accordingly.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

colinstewart said:


> If it won't let me schedule in a program for tonight because it has calculated there won't be enough space in TWO weeks to record something, then this is clearly not correct and TIVO is at fault


The problem is that when you set KUID on an upcoming recording *you* are overriding the TiVo's space-management and saying "make space available for this at all costs".

You have pre-empted the TiVo by setting KUID, so really the decision _was_ yours and it's just doing what you asked...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

colinstewart said:


> * I do have huge disk space, I had a 120GB and a 40GB, now have a 250GB so haven't hit the problem recently but I will do soon.


This is not what I call "huge disk space".

I have been running 2 x 250Gb (500Gb) total for over a year now and while I haven't seen the message "Insufficient Disk Space" ever since I kicked out the old 30Gb + 15Gb drives I can see that I am about to see those words again soon unless I start deleting some of the huge number of interesting but not "I must watch it now" Keep Until Delete programs I saved months ago in the hope I might one day find time to watch. Fortunately I have TivoWeb which makes ruthless bulk deletion easy.

As you now apparently only have one hard drive the answer here is easy. Buy yourself a 400Gb Samsung hard drive and add it as a second hard drive. You now have 600GB hard drive space. Only about 230 hours at Best, although a whopping 800 hours or so at Basic (the latter not recommended because Now Playing menus will run at the speed of a garden snail with this many entries). Result problem solved. Cost only £81 delivered from www.komplett.co.uk


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## colinstewart (May 22, 2005)

Hi!

I actually have a 250GB and a 120GB.

But again, this shouldn't be the solution, to continually increase the hard disk space. This only delays the problem and doesn't resolve it.

I still say that Tivo should not be grabbing available space for programs in the ToDo List for 2-3 weeks time. If I want to add a program into the schedule to be recorded now, I should be able to. The space is free, it should be available. I shouldn't have to go and delete recordings or change settings to Delete if Needed and face the possiblility of losing a program, Tivo should redo it's To Do List to make the space available. 

Once I have watched and deleted a recording, that space is then available for Tivo to add programs to the To Do List again, but should still allow me to add programs if I desire.

Space should be useable to programs in Date & Time of recording order, not locking space from being useable because it has scheduled something for some future date.

Don't get me wrong, I think Tivo's are fantastic and would be lost without it, best thing I've ever bought. This issue however is one of those things that should be classed as a fault and be modified. This is just one of those things that is totally frustrating and ridiculous and the fact that we in the UK are so left behind compared to what is available in America.

Thanks for your replies


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

colinstewart said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think Tivo's are fantastic and would be lost without it, best thing I've ever bought. This issue however is one of those things that should be classed as a fault and be modified. This is just one of those things that is totally frustrating and ridiculous and the fact that we in the UK are so left behind compared to what is available in America.


I'm not convinced that Tivo S2 or S3s work any differently on this particular issue of handling program expiry etc.

The answers surely is not to set so much stuff to Save Until I Delete.

If you set most Season Passes to Space Available then with a large hard drive setup nature will evenually take its course and start wiping these recordings out but only after a month or two with a large hard drive setup and if you haven't watched the programs after a month or two then just will you ever find time to watch them?


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## colinstewart (May 22, 2005)

Hi!

Yes, I don't think S2 or S3 resolve this problem either.
Yes, setting up SP's as you suggested is the solution to be able to add programs but I then face the possibility of losing programs before I have watched them unless I change the delete date. 

Whether I will ever get round to watching them or not again is not the issue. Tivo is holding onto space that is currently free ( or would become free once it automatically deletes programs) for recordings it isn't scheluded to do for days or weeks in the future. I should have the ability to use that space now.

Surely it should be that simple. Anything else is excuses and work rounds for what is conceivably a fault.

Very different setup but the idea is the same:-
You would not accept it if your bank refused you the ability to withdraw funds from your account today if you have the cash available just because you have a Standing Order or Direct Debit which would take the money in two weeks time. It is not up to your bank to make decisions like that or to hold your cash.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

colinstewart said:


> Whether I will ever get round to watching them or not again is not the issue. Tivo is holding onto space that is currently free ( or would become free once it automatically deletes programs) for recordings it isn't scheluded to do for days or weeks in the future. I should have the ability to use that space now.


You are just asking that instead of saying Insufficient Disk Space the Tivo says "I can only make space for this if I cancel your Previously Scheduled Recording on x January 2007".

You would still have to make a difficult choice. The primary problem is that your Tivo disk space is nearly full up. If you want to keep more programs you need more disk space. Why not upgrade?


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## colinstewart (May 22, 2005)

I don't think it is a case of Cancelling a recording for the future, it is a case of removing the last item(s) to make room for a new request and for that item to be added in when it has room. I don't think it is a difficult choice either. I have an almost full Tivo, but it always has room to schedule items for the next two weeks. 

Occasionally however, I wish to add a one off program or extend a recording for this evening. I should be able to do this without major hassle.

Why should I be adding more disk space or deleting items when there already is free space?

Why should this be such a difficult concept. It really should be quite simple. The To Do List is a list of items it has scheduled to record according to the Season Passes. As space becomes available, it increases the To Do List. If an item is added for recording sooner, it should temporarily reduce it's list and make that space, which IS CURRENTLY FREE, available.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

colinstewart said:


> The To Do List is a list of items it has scheduled to record according to the Season Passes. As space becomes available, it increases the To Do List. If an item is added for recording sooner, it should temporarily reduce it's list and make that space, which IS CURRENTLY FREE, available.


The To Do list is a list of items you have told if to record either one by one or via the creations of a Season Pass or Wishlist. It will try to acommodate all of those previous choices of yours until the next recording choice that you try to make prevents it from being able to fulfil all of those previous choices. That is when it tells you it has no space left.

Recorded Suggestions Tivo has chosen for you are swept off the Tivo without so much as a second reference to you and programs not set as Save Until I Delete are also deleted earlier than they would have been before if you choose another program to record but eventually a point comes when by asking for another recording tomorrow you are stopping the Tivo having space for another recording your manually chosen recordings or SPs or Wishlists are asking it to make in the next 3 weeks of data the Tivo has available to it. If you record the program tomorrow as well Tivo has no guarantee you aren't going on holiday tonight or that you will watch and delete any Save Until I Delete programs at all between now and the one scheduled in 20 days time.

Sorry I can see you are one of those people who just won't accept that you can't force Tivo to do exactly what you want it to do but you aren't facing up to the fact that its not Tivo's recording setting logic that is at fault but rather the fact that you have too many Save Until I Delete programs set and/or not enough hard drive space to acommodate your wishes. Do you record everything in Basic? If not you have other options available like reducing the quality of some of your SPs you record at higher quality for instance. Or archive stuff you want to watch in the end to VHS or on to DVD if you have a network card and know how to use TY something or other.

You might also say it made more sense for the Inland Revenue not to ask for everyone's tax return on 31st Jan. Unfortunately the Inland Revenue aren't going to change their system just for you. Some things in life you just have to accept as they are.................


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## colinstewart (May 22, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> Sorry I can see you are one of those people who just won't accept that you can't force Tivo to do exactly what you want it to do but you aren't facing up to the fact that its not Tivo's recording setting logic that is at fault but rather the fact that you have too many Save Until I Delete programs set and/or not enough hard drive space to acommodate your wishes. Do you record everything in Basic? If not you have other options available like reducing the quality of some of your SPs you record at higher quality for instance. Or archive stuff you want to watch in the end to VHS or on to DVD if you have a network card and know how to use TY something or other.


Thanks for that, there was no need for that improper personal attack. :down:

I'm one of those people that won't accept excuses for obvious errors in programming. Every suggestion made is a work round for something that should not happen. People like yourself make excuses instead of helping people like myself get action taken and have proper resolutions to problems. I'm not trying to force Tivo to do something it can't. I'm merely pointing out an very obvious flaw.

Let's get this clear. Regardless of the size of the hard disks installed, regardless of what I have setup iin my Season Passes, Tivo is not allowing me to add a recording into the schedule because it believes there is no space left. THERE IS.

The TO DO LIST is a list of recordings for the future. This list can be changed by altering Season Passes. If space is available, Tivo can add items to the To Do List. Why can't I do that if I want to. I should not be stopped because it has grabbed space it is not going to use for a period of time. The space is there - it should be available. It is not my not understanding or operating that is wrong.

There is no point in arguing about this.
Yes there are work rounds, yes I obviously have to change some things BUT I shouldn't have to. My Tivo has the space free, I should be able to use it. END OF STORY.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

colinstewart said:


> Space should be useable to programs in Date & Time of recording order, not locking space from being useable because it has scheduled something for some future date.


But, if you have already explictly told the TiVo that you _require _a recording next week to be made and to be KUID then it can't, logically, use that space now for an off-the-cuff recording you want to make today as it has no idea when you will release it by deleting the programme.

So, strange as it may seem, tying up 3gb of disk space two weeks in the future with a KUID recording, actually reduces the _current_ available disk space by 3gb too. Take it to an extreme: you have 370gb of space so if you schedule 370gb of recordings, all set to KUID, starting _at any time_ in the future, you are effectively saying "use all my disk space for these recordings" and, because that was what you asked it to do first, it will do it. Then, today, when you try to schedule a recording for today it can't do it because it has previously been told to use all the disk space for the other recordings starting tomorrow or whenever.

I agree that, theoretically, it could present you with a dialog that says "this recording can be made, but will have to be deleted on xxx to make way for yyy recording(s)" but the confirmation logic seems to work the other way - ie. it will ask you if it's OK for _something else_ to be deleted early to make way for this new recording, but not vice-versa. I guess that's a level of complexity that eluded whoever programmed that bit of the UI....

The answer (as a general rule) is not to set up recordings in advance with KUID, but to only set them to KUID once they have been recorded _if_ you want to keep them.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

colinstewart said:


> There is no point in arguing about this.
> 
> My Tivo has the space free, I should be able to use it. END OF STORY.


You just won't see the flaw in your own logic.

Tivo has already allocated the space you maintain is currently free to a program in two weeks time that your manual choice or SP or Wishlist has told Tivo that you definitely want recorded. Yes at the moment it could record the program you want tomorrow with that pre-allocated space to the program in 2 weeks time but only if it no longer takes the view it can definitely record the program you wanted in two weeks time. You can't have both. Also Tivo could record the program you want tomorrow if instead of cussedly trying to set Save Until I Delete you accepted an Expiry Date it proposes that will fit in with the other recordings it already has scheduled.

The only way the system you want would work is if every day Tivo sends a Tivo owner an email and points out that programs it is due to record in two weeks time no longer have enough space to record unless you get on and watch and delete some of the programs you have already recorded and set as Save Until I Delete before then. But many Tivo owners would find that requirement in itself a severe inconvenience.

I don't think I made a personal attack on you previously. I just pointed out that its perfectly clear that you think only your point of view is right and just won't see why it is the Tivo system actually works the way it does and why it is perfectly sensible for it to do so.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> The only way the system you want would work is if every day Tivo sends a Tivo owner an email and points out that programs it is due to record in two weeks time no longer have enough space to record unless you get on and watch and delete some of the programs you have already recorded and set as Save Until I Delete before then. But many Tivo owners would find that requirement in itself a severe inconvenience.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Raisltin Majere said:


>


Yes I agree this would be too confusing for most humble mortals to understand which is precisely why Tivo have gone for the simpler approach.

It is the fact that he sets basically everything to Keep Until I Delete rather than only his most important programs that is causing him all the issues.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Sorry, my confusion was the whole email/inconvenience thing.

Isn't this pretty much what DailyMail does?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Raisltin Majere said:


> Isn't this pretty much what DailyMail does?


Quite probably. I never bothered with Daily Mail Jazz because it sounded so fiendishly and unnecessarily complex to set up (and very poorly documented compared to other hack installation) for what seemed probably a not very useful content in the email.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> Quite probably. I never bothered with Daily Mail Jazz because it sounded so fiendishly and unnecessarily complex to set up (and very poorly documented compared to other hack installation) for what seemed probably a not very useful content in the email.


Oh yeah, I remember


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Raisltin Majere said:


> Oh yeah, I remember


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## colinstewart (May 22, 2005)

It's not that I can't see the flaw in my own logic, it is that I see the flaw in the Tivo. It is allocating free space for programs in the future and therefore not being made available for programs now.

Let's put it another way:-
If i re-order my Season Passes or add in a new Season Pass, Tivo recalculates what it can and cannot record according to the new arrangement of Season Passes. That is all I am expecting it to do when I ask it to add a more recent recording. 

Of course Tivo won't know when more space will be made available, I'm not expecting anything complicated here. I just expect it to let me add a program in as there IS space and to recalculate what it can do. If I don't make space available, then it can't record, that is obvious. It should calculate the To Do List according to current free space, not ALLOCATE/reserve it. If another program is added, it should recalculate similarly to when a new sp is added or the current ones reordered.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

But when you ask for a new recording, the priority is assumed to be at the lowest possible - ie. the bottom of the Season Pass Manager. That's why it always asks you if it's OK to remove other scheduled recordings if there's a clash. If the new recording's priority was assumed to be high then it would just remove them without asking. 

So, when you ask for a low priority recording, but there is no space because it's all reserved for some higher priority upcoming recording(s) set to KUID, it can't do it. If it makes a recording now then it will have to un-KUID something of a higher priority currently set to KUID, which it won't do.


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## Tony Hoyle (Apr 1, 2002)

Basically KUID says "This programme is so important it must definately be recorded and never deleted". By implication you're reserving the space because you've told Tivo it's important to you. It can't ever schedule something that might lead to that programme not being recorded.

It's never a problem unless you have a lot of them. Keep KUID for the most important and unmissable stuff and let Tivo manage its own space for the rest of it. Alternatively get a bigger hard drive.

You can't complain about having to delete stuff manually if you've set them to KUID - that's precisely what you told Tivo you wanted to do.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

The only way Tivo could do what the OP wants it to do is to ask you if you want to delete a scheduled recording that is already listed in To Do in the next three weeks so that you can now record something else in its place.

I must say I'm a bit hazy on some of the relationships between Season Passes and Wishlists and the Tivo To Do list since if you manually delete something in To Do that an SP or Wislist has put there the Tivo doesn't then seem to try and then put it back there again once a day (when it does Garbage Clearance and reindexes) as one might possibly expect it to. So Tivo seems to keep a note that you have told it that you definitely don't want that particular program in a series to be recorded, regardless of the existence of SPs and Wislists that seem to tell it the exact opposite.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> The only way Tivo could do what the OP wants it to do is to ask you if you want to delete a scheduled recording that is already listed in To Do in the next three weeks so that you can now record something else in its place.
> .


Why couldn't it do both? In a perfect world, it could record the new program but make the user aware that this program will be deleted in xx days to make way for your very important recording.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

I also use KUID for a different reason: it frees up the scheduler 

An extreme example:
Set a normal (Keep until space needed) SP for "the simpsons" with Keep at Most 3 Episodes. Give this top priority.

Sky One has a "simpsons day" with 24 eps back to back and tivo sits there recording every single one of them - but deletes them immediately afterwards, leaving the last 3. 
So it has tied up the scheduler for a day (singe tuner remember!) but only kept recorded 1.5 hours! 

If you set this to KUID, then it would only record the first 3 and then leave the scheduling space open for other programs.

I guess what I am saying is don't use KUID with KAM "all episodes" as that will reserve all your HD space up.


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## colinstewart (May 22, 2005)

Exactly. The fact that if you delete something from the To Do List and that it doesn't get added back if there is room makes it a problem.

The fact that Tivo allocates the free space for programs for 3 weeks time is the problem. The To Do List should be a list of the programs it will record if it has space, if space becomes unavailable, it should shorten the list. 

At anytime, you can check your To Do List and see what it would record with the current space. If it isn't going to record something you want, obviously you have to make more space. All I'm trying to say is that it is painful and it shouldn't happen that Tivo stops you from adding something in to be recorded now when the space is there purely because it has already worked out what it will do with the current free space in 3 weeks. It should do a recalculation of the To Do List, thereby allowing you to record a program now, this will also allow you to see what it will record in the future. If you then delete programs, it can auto add them in as it has the space. 

The free space should not be allocated and held, the To Do List should be an estimate showing what it could record based on current free space IF no changes are made. If changes are, it recalculates the estimates.

I do know how Tivo works, I do know what I have to do to get round it, I am just saying I think Tivo could operate this more efficiently for the user.

Cheers for your replies


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Tivo's designers decided that the one thing which would result in their product being smashed to pieces with a hammer is if it did not record the programmes you have told it to through lack of space or if it it unexpectedly deleted something you wanted kept. If you've given a program a SUID season pass you've told it that it *must* record that show and *never * delete it. It takes that as its start point when building its To Do list and maintaining Now Playing - never delete a SUID show, always make sure you have sufficient space for all upcoming SUID shows. That way there can be no "recording failed due to lack of disk space" trauma.

This introduces a minor inconvenience if you over-use the SUID feature and fill up the entire hard disk with SUID shows or space reserved for upcoming SUID shows. The designers thought that this was preferable to you finding that your shows had not been recorded because the disk was full. I think that was the correct design decision. Opting for "It'll probably be alright I expect" wasn't an option for them.

They also decided that the To Do List should be a list of things to be recorded, not a wishlist of stuff which might. Again that's correct - I want to check the To Do List, see a show is there and then be confident that if it is then it will be recorded.

For 99% of TiVo users who use TiVo "as designed" they rarely see this problem as normally they would not have dozens or hundreds of hours of "must keep" TV on their boxes. I can only recall seeing it once, when a favourite show was the subject of a marathon weekend when 30-odd episodes where shown in two days, and even then it was noticed because of the "will keep for less than 2 days" warnings rather than a full "will not record".


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## Dazbear (Aug 24, 2001)

I had exactly this problem and yes, it was down to Season Passes on KUID.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Tivo's designers decided that the one thing which would result in their product being smashed to pieces with a hammer is if it did not record the programmes you have told it to through lack of space or if it it unexpectedly deleted something you wanted kept
> 
> This introduces a minor inconvenience if you over-use the SUID feature and fill up the entire hard disk with SUID shows or space reserved for upcoming SUID shows. The designers thought that this was preferable to you finding that your shows had not been recorded because the disk was full. I think that was the correct design decision. Opting for "It'll probably be alright I expect" wasn't an option for them.
> 
> They also decided that the To Do List should be a list of things to be recorded, not a wishlist of stuff which might. Again that's correct - I want to check the To Do List, see a show is there and then be confident that if it is then it will be recorded.


I totally agree with what you say and with the original intent of the Tivo designers in the way they designed the software. I don't agree at all with the OP's contention that it is reasonable not to record a program in 2 weeks time without telling him so he can record a program this evening even though his total hard disk space is nearly full.

It might be reasonable for Tivo to tell you it could record something this evening if it didn't record something already scheduled in 2 weeks in time instead and to leave you the users with the decision as to which program is more important to you. And I suppose that program cancelled in 2 weeks time could also even be added to a wait list for more space but with no guarantee that program would be recorded unless the extra space became available in the interim.

At the end of the day the Tivo S1 designers clearly wrote their software for a maximum 40 hours recording capacity at Basic. If they had known up to 1,000 hours was ever going to be possible then they might have designed the software to operate somewhat differently.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

I think this problem is a result of
a) satellite channels not spreading out the programmes, and suddenly having a 24hour "star trek fest" 
b) tivo scheduler looking and planning a long way ahead

IMO the OP's problem can be solved by using a lower number for "Keep at most" 
(e.g. 3 instead of "all episodes") in the season pass and wishlists he uses with "keep until I delete".

Then tivo will not schedule ahead (and therefore not reserve space) when it already has 3 episodes recorded.

It will only schedule another recording after you have watched one of the existing 3.

Another solution would be a hack to auto-prune the guide data to only be for 48 hours ahead at any one time....


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Another solution would be a hack to auto-prune the guide data to only be for 48 hours ahead at any one time....


A solution with very few supporters I would have thought!

One of the main reasons people hate Sky+ is that it only has one week of data compared to Tivo's three weeks.


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## colinstewart (May 22, 2005)

Totally Agree 

Compared to Sky+, Tivo is in a world of its own. 
Certainly would never consider reducing the ToDoList schedules just to rectify this issue. 

I know how to work round this issue, but it is annoying and just wish I didn't have to. It is not that I'm using Tivo wrongly, I feel that it should not be such a difficult task to press record on the Tivo and have it record something if Tivo is not full (i.e. ACTUAL space used not just allocated) 

It would make sense if Tivo let you add in a recording for now as the space is there and recalculate the To Do List as appropriate. After all, it would recalculate it if I modified the Season Passes. 

If I wanted to add a program for recording now and got the No Space Message, if I removed a Season Pass or two, this would release allocated space. Provided I tried to add my program to record now, it would be added to the To Do List. If I didn't do it immediately, within a short time, the freed space would be re-allocated to other programs within the Season Passes for use in the future. 

So , if I remove a SP or two, add my program to record now then RE-ADD the SP's I deleted, it would calculate what it could record with messages like 
"This program will be deleted earlier than expected" 
or 
"This program will not be recorded - Not Enough Space" 
This is perfectly fine as when space becomes available, it will automatically add them in to the ToDoList. 

Therefore, in reality, it would have been beneficial and sensible to the user if Tivo could just simply recalculate the ToDoList and let you add in a program. 

In the meantime, we all have ways to work round this. The fact that we have all found ways round this does indicate that it does frustrate people. If Tivo ever came back to the UK or a new version of the Software was to be developed, these issues should be taken into account.


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## Andy Leitch (Apr 30, 2005)

As a UI designer in a previous life, the tivo S1 UI, IMHO, is a mess and goes against the grain of the 'tivo experience'. As a CE device designed to be operated by remote control, the remote control, by its size, is clearly designed to be operated in one-hand. But the UI requires certain button-presses that needs two-hands, because the button combinations are at opposite ends of the remote control. Unless you possess hands the size of the proverbial shovel....two hands are needed to complete the operation. This is clumsy and unintuitive and just feels wrong. I've never used a S2 or S3 machine, probably never will either, so I don't know if operating and navigating the UI is any better than the S1.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Andy Leitch said:


> tivo S1 UI, IMHO, is a mess


I guess you've never tried to use Sky+ then


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## Tony Hoyle (Apr 1, 2002)

Compared to nearly all stuff out there Tivo is an absolute dream to use. Sky+ is pretty much the example of how not to make a UI. Even my Humax Freeview recorder has you pressing buttons hidden in a bank of identical square black buttons that you can't see in dim light at all, and forget it in the dark (and that's not just for esoteric stuff.. that's for pause/play).

The wannabe PVR manufacturers could learn heaps from Tivo but they all decided to reinvent the wheel.

"Those who do not understand Tivo are condemned to reinvent it, poorly."

(hey I just worked out my new sig!).


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

colinstewart said:


> In the meantime, we all have ways to work round this. The fact that we have all found ways round this does indicate that it does frustrate people. If Tivo ever came back to the UK or a new version of the Software was to be developed, these issues should be taken into account.


Actually, I don't think most of us do have ways to work around it beacuase we don't come across it - typically people do not have so much SUID stuff as to fill the disk.

I only have one SUID season pass (Simpsons First Run). Other thinks I put onto SUID manually if I think there is a danger they will be deleted before i watch them. I typically have several weeks to do this before tiVop would delete them.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> I only have one SUID season pass (Simpsons First Run). Other thinks I put onto SUID manually if I think there is a danger they will be deleted before i watch them. I typically have several weeks to do this before tiVo would delete them.


Agreed. It's a vicious circle: the more KUID stuff you have in the TDL the faster other stuff gets deleted so the more worried you get and the more things you set to KUID in advance.... :down:

With a 250gb drive you should have no need to set anything to KUID in advance unless you are expecting to be away from home for weeks on end, and if you remove all the KUID in the upcoming recordings you will suddenly find that things hang around on your drive for weeks without being deleted :up:


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Andy Leitch said:


> As a UI designer in a previous life, the tivo S1 UI, IMHO, is a mess and goes against the grain of the 'tivo experience'. As a CE device designed to be operated by remote control, the remote control, by its size, is clearly designed to be operated in one-hand. But the UI requires certain button-presses that needs two-hands, because the button combinations are at opposite ends of the remote control. Unless you possess hands the size of the proverbial shovel....two hands are needed to complete the operation. This is clumsy and unintuitive and just feels wrong. I've never used a S2 or S3 machine, probably never will either, so I don't know if operating and navigating the UI is any better than the S1.


  You must have produced some amazing UIs then; I've got Sky, Sky+, and four different varieties of MCE remote and TiVo is a country mile better than all of them. It fits beaufifully in the hand and all the commnly used features fall directly under your thumb. You only need to re-adjust you hold for shortcuts - if you only use the UI then it's damn near perfect.

I guess if you used the remote for manual channel changes you might think it was awkward, but who does that?


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## Andy Leitch (Apr 30, 2005)

TCM2007 said:


> You must have produced some amazing UIs then; I've got Sky, Sky+, and four different varieties of MCE remote and TiVo is a country mile better than all of them. It fits beaufifully in the hand and all the commnly used features fall directly under your thumb. You only need to re-adjust you hold for shortcuts - if you only use the UI then it's damn near perfect.


Deleting a programme in Now Playing brings up the `Hint' for quicker deletion. You're navigating with the rocker switch at the top of the remote and then have to press the clear button at the bottom of the remote...that's a two-handed operation unless you can juggle the remote back and forth in one hand, which for me, is just clumsy, awkward and feels wrong. I guess calling the UI a mess was a bit harsh, it's more probably mild irritations, which I think the OP was also alluding to.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

I think you've stretched a bit to try to find an example of two handed operation there.
Its a shortcut after all, not a core feature like navigation.

You can actually use the whole of tivo without ever touching the numerical pad, or anything below.

A better remote might even omit the whole numeric keypad....


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> A better remote might even omit the whole numeric keypad....


What about channel changing on Live Tv? Some of us do watch 24 hours news channels you know and 24 hours news channels are usually best watched live.


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## Andy Leitch (Apr 30, 2005)

mikerr said:


> I think you've stretched a bit to try to find an example of two handed operation there.
> Its a shortcut after all, not a core feature like navigation.


Tivo + numerical keypad number is a shortcut....as in it's not listed in the user manual. But navigating Now Playing using the rocker switch , (at the top of the remote) + pressing Clear, (at the bottom of the remote), is *suggested* by the UI as a better and quicker way to achieve a function. It's clearly not.

You are forgetting that tivo is an american device, designed by americans for americans. The UK S1 remote is the same size as an US S1 remote.

Any UK gamers that's used an Xbox with the originally supplied Duke controller, will tell you it's almost unusable for UK hands.



> You can actually use the whole of tivo without ever touching the numerical pad, or anything below.
> A better remote might even omit the whole numeric keypad....


How then are you supposed to navigate between sky channel 101 and channel 501, with the least amount of keypresses?


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Andy Leitch said:


> You are forgetting that tivo is an american device, designed by americans for americans. The UK S1 remote is the same size as an US S1 remote.


Are you saying Brits have smaller hands than Americans?

Without wishing to brag I can easily swap my thumb from the rocker switch to the Clear button (or even Enter) and back again many times, one-handed in a single comfortable motion. The excellent (and unique IME) contouring of the underside of the peanut helps to make this even easier, as the rear bulge just moves from palm to fingers and back again without losing balance at all.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> What about channel changing on Live Tv? Some of us do watch 24 hours news channels you know and 24 hours news channels are usually best watched live.


I can honestly say I never type the channel numbers at all when using tivo.

Rocker switch and page up/down are all I use.
That may be slightly longer, but more intuitive than having to remember or care what number a channel is allocated on sky, cable or freeview (I have more than one tivo).

As an example livetv was just on SciFi, so to change to News24 took 5 keypresses: 
page-up page-up up up select.

I have long since filtered out all the crap channels from the display list though.


Andy Leitch said:


> Now Playing using the rocker switch (at the top of the remote) + pressing Clear, (at the bottom of the remote), is *suggested* by the UI as a better and quicker way to achieve a function.
> It's clearly not.


So you're saying the following sequence:

select 
<wait for next screen>
down
down
select

is quicker than pressing the single button "clear" ?!

I say this because that particlular shortcut is about the only one shortcut I use regularly, and saves a huge amount of time when deleting a lot of shows.
(Yes, tivoweb would be quicker but not while sitting at the tv!)


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