# PIP (Picture-in-Picture)



## xkahn

Come on! There are two tuners in my TiVoHD box. I should be able to watch them both at the same time. I like that I can switch back and forth between the tuners easily, but it would be even better if I could see when a commercial is ending and switch then.


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## Videodrome

PIP is the most missed feature, nothing motorola does it. Having PIP on Tivo, would make me super happy. Especially if it was panel/panel.


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## lrhorer

1. Don't watch live TV - it's a waste of time - and you won't have the problem.

2. I don't believe the TiVo has the hardware to allow PIP. Dual tuners won't do it. It's got to have dual rendering engines.

3. I personally detest PIP. My Hitachi 62" has PIP, and when I was using it and its remote to handle the video control functions, I would occasionally accidentally enable PIP, and then it was a major hassle to get the picture back where it was supposed to be. I hated it, and I was sorely glad to be rid of it when the S3 TiVo came along. Since a PIP capable TiVo wouldbe more expensive, I say, "Not only NO, but *HAIL NO!*"


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## Videodrome

Irhorer ,
Every topic you disagree with, why come in here, if your just going to put down everyone's ideas. Responding with watch recorded content only just makes you come off badly.


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## xkahn

lrhorer, it's a major pain to get the picture back the way it is supposed to be? That seems... odd. Isn't it just a toggle? (PIP on/off?)

As for the rendering hardware, it _seems_ like the TiVo already includes the hardware needed -- it's adding graphics to the live video stream already.

I can imagine that it could only do it when the graphics aren't on the screen...


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## classicsat

Adding graphics is a lot different than playing back second MPEG2 stream and scaling it to a window. I don't think TiVo's hardware is even capable of scaling.


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## wmcbrine

xkahn said:


> As for the rendering hardware, it _seems_ like the TiVo already includes the hardware needed -- it's adding graphics to the live video stream already.


That's very different from PIP. The graphics you're talking about are static. PIP is full video -- about 30 frames a second. You have to rescale it in real time.


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## whitenack

There are some times where you just don't want to wait until the show is recorded.

My TV has PIP, and I hooked basic cable up to it and the TIVO coming in through one of the inputs.

It was nice to be able to watch the Ryder Cup and Football at the same time.


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## MikeMar

whitenack said:


> There are some times where you just don't want to wait until the show is recorded.
> 
> My TV has PIP, and I hooked basic cable up to it and the TIVO coming in through one of the inputs.
> 
> *It was nice to be able to watch the Ryder Cup and Football at the same time*.


Sports is why you would want PIP really


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## jbernardis

If the TIVo can't do PIP and the necessary scaling, it would be nice if it had a video out for each tuner so that I can use the TV to do PIP.


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## classicsat

That isn't an option with current hardware either, and I don't see TiVo adding a second video decoder.


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## lrhorer

Videodrome said:


> Irhorer ,
> Every topic you disagree with, why come in here, if your just going to put down everyone's ideas.


This is simply untrue. I have frequently responded in agreement with many suggestions in this forum. I respond in disagreement whenever I disagree. In this case, there are both hardware issues and my personal opinion involved in the matter.


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## lrhorer

xkahn said:


> lrhorer, it's a major pain to get the picture back the way it is supposed to be? That seems... odd. Isn't it just a toggle? (PIP on/off?)


That presumes one can find it. Perhaps a better layout than the one afforded by the Hitachi would have helped, but with six position-dependent buttons at hand, getting out of PIP back to where one wanted - rather than la-la land. Generally it meant getting up and turning on the light to be able to see, navigating back to where I wanted to be, turning out the light, and sitting back down.



xkahn said:


> As for the rendering hardware, it _seems_ like the TiVo already includes the hardware needed -- it's adding graphics to the live video stream already.


Uh-uh. See above.


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## lrhorer

whitenack said:


> There are some times where you just don't want to wait until the show is recorded.


I don't ever "wait" for anything. When I get the chance, I sit down and watch something. That something is some small number out of 1800 or so recordings, typically 180 or so per TiVo plus the ones on the Video Server.



whitenack said:


> My TV has PIP, and I hooked basic cable up to it and the TIVO coming in through one of the inputs.


Before the debut of the S3, as you know I had an SA8300HD, plus a TWC STB controlled by a Series I TiVo, plus Cable with a CableCard in the Hitachi TV. Because of shortcomings with the 8300HD, I was forced to use PIP pretty much any time I wanted to watch something recorded by the 8300HD, or else give up 5.1 audio. It was a real pain. As I've already mentioned, an even bigger pain was accidentally activating PIP. More often than not, the attempt to get back out would land me somewhere else than where I wanted to be.


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## whitenack

lrhorer said:


> I don't ever "wait" for anything. When I get the chance, I sit down and watch something. That something is some small number out of 1800 or so recordings, typically 180 or so per TiVo plus the ones on the Video Server.


I guess my point was there are some things you want to watch live, like sporting events.

Sometimes those sporting events are on at the same time and you want to watch both live.


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## lrhorer

whitenack said:


> I guess my point was there are some things you want to watch live, like sporting events.


I've seen other people say this, but it is as bizarre to me as saying one enjoys burning one's self with a torch. Why waste 45 minutes or more of one's time in time-outs, huddles, referee conferences, commercials, and silly half-time shows? Watch 20 sporting events and that's more than 15 hours of your life. Of course PIP allows one to sort of compress that time a bit - if you're lucky, at the expense of diluting both experiences and having to deal with switching back and forth. It also means - for no particular reason - having to allow others to dictate when you will watch something. Personally, I refuse to allow anyone to dictate my schedule unless they pay me for the privilege.

I've been busy with work and then with household chores all evening, and I'll be taking a break to watch a bit of recorded video on one of my Tivos. It's 2:45 AM. I might, maybe, get a chance to watch something one night this week before 22:00, but I'm not counting on it. AM, PM, middle of the night - it all makes no difference to me. If I'm home and I have a spare 22 minutes to 90 minutes or so, I'll watch something. When it was recorded is irrelevant.



whitenack said:


> Sometimes those sporting events are on at the same time and you want to watch both live.


Again, why? The games themselves won't be any different 45 minutes later, but they can be missing all the boring stuff that's mostly unavoidable live. There's absolutely nothing preventing an unbelievable NBA basketball jump shot from occurring one one channel at the very same moment as a spectacular NASCAR 15 car pile-up on the other.


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## Jonathan_S

whitenack said:


> I guess my point was there are some things you want to watch live, like sporting events.
> 
> Sometimes those sporting events are on at the same time and you want to watch both live.


And then there's my friends solution to this issue. In addition to the 'main' game on his projector, he has been known to round up a few LCD computer monitors and hook them up to additional sat boxes.

It's a little overwhelming to walk in and have 4 - 6 screen all showing games simultaniously. (Especially when one of them is tuned to DirecTV's NFL mulit-game summary channel)


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## whitenack

lrhorer,

You have been a big help to me so I appreciate your comments. I also respect your opinion.

However, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. 

I don't have the same daily schedule as you do, so I can afford to watch live TV. Heck, if I was up working until 2:45 I certainly wouldn't be spending my free time watching TV at all! I'd be hitting the sack. 

Plus, which takes less time: Watching two sporting events at the same time live, or recording and watching both later? Even with commercials, two 4-hour football games watched at the same time only lasts 4 hours. Even if you shave 45 mins off each game, you still have 3 hrs 15 min EACH. Additionally, while I wouldn't mind to fast forward through the commercials, I enjoy the halftime show which talks about the other games that are playing during that time.

And the final point: I couldn't call myself a true Kentucky fan if I didn't sit down and watch the Cats play live!


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## lrhorer

whitenack said:


> I also respect your opinion.


You needn't. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate respect, and in some veins I deserve it, but this is just a personal opinion. As Americans, we must respect each other's right to have and to voice our opinions, but you needn't respect any particular opinion in and of itself. I haven't just come down from the fiery mountain, after all, and your are perfectly free to consider any personal opinion of mine to be utter nonsense. My professional opinion is another matter, but this isn't a professional opinion. I do very much appreciate your even tone.



whitenack said:


> I don't have the same daily schedule as you do, so I can afford to watch live TV. Heck, if I was up working until 2:45 I certainly wouldn't be spending my free time watching TV at all! I'd be hitting the sack.


Work has to get done. Play comes afterward. The point, however, is that the Tivo allows me to watch on my schedule, not someone else's. There are programs on my systems that have been sitting unwatched for over 3 years. I'll get to them when I get to them, or not. It's not as if they will have changed in the interim. They will be just as good or as bad now as three years ago.



whitenack said:


> Plus, which takes less time: Watching two sporting events at the same time live, or recording and watching both later?


Yes, I already alluded to the fact there is some time compression allowed by having two items on the screen simultaneously. The discussion gets more complex at this point, however, and I really don't have time or the inclination right now to go into it further. 'Perhaps later.



whitenack said:


> Even with commercials, two 4-hour football games watched at the same time only lasts 4 hours. Even if you shave 45 mins off each game, you still have 3 hrs 15 min EACH.


Yes, but I submit it is humanly impossible to be fully involved in two programs simultaneously. Certainly it is wildly impractical to have two simultaneous audio tracks. I find it unfathomable that anyone would bother to involve themselves in something in which they are not totally engrossed. In effect, it's a choice between watching one indifferent and cognitively diluted event or two superlatively intense events. By analogy, I absolutely love SCUBA diving, and of course I find sex quite thrilling. I try to do both as often as possible, and one might think combining the two would be both efficient and superaltive, combining as it were the best of both. Trust me, I know from experience this is not the case. One winds up not with a mind-blowing sexual SCUBA dive, but a disappointing experience that incorporates the difficulties of both with few if any of the pleasures of either. The PIP experience is almost precisely the same for me.



whitenack said:


> I enjoy the halftime show which talks about the other games that are playing during that time.


Obviously, anything that you enjoy is not a waste of your time. Heck if someone actually likes commercials, then commercials are not a waste of their time, although I submit such an individual might be in dire need of therapy. The point, however, is that with a recorded program one has a *choice*, and choice is one cornerstone of freedom*. With a live program, one's only choice is to either watch or not watch. That's fundamentally what is meant by TiVo's slogan, "TV my way".

* Clearly, this is a minor freedom compared to the freedoms of speech, the press, peaceable assembly, and so forth. I don't want the reader to believe I am loony because I think the freedom to watch TV on my terms is anything nearly as important as those afforded by the Bill of Rights. We are, after all, only talking about television. Within the confines of the admittedly comparatively unimportant topic of TV viewing, the freedom to watch what one wants when one wants is an important one, however.


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## EVizzle

I have my main TV, a side TV and my laptop all on at the same time. If I only have two things going my mind wanders! I would love PIP so while I am watching a recorded show, I could watch a live sports game that I probably would have missed. 6 things at one time would be my limit though


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## lrhorer

Jonathan_S said:


> And then there's my friends solution to this issue. In addition to the 'main' game on his projector, he has been known to round up a few LCD computer monitors and hook them up to additional sat boxes.


That's one place I must remember to avoid like the plague.


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## lrhorer

EVizzle said:


> I have my main TV, a side TV and my laptop all on at the same time. If I only have two things going my mind wanders!


I submit you aren't really watching any of them, but in any case my mind never wanders - ever. I've also spent several thousand dollars to try to make sure what I am watching is never interrupted or diluted by extraneous influences. Unfortunately sometimes my bladder doesn't oblige, and emergency phone calls from work are a frequent interruption, but I certainly don't want to voluntarily add in distractions.


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## whitenack

This isn't a suggestion just for one person's benefit. The question is not whether one single individual would use it. lrhorer, I think you would agree that not everyone has your same viewing habits.

I think there would be enough interest from the average Tivo user.


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## Videodrome

whitenack said:


> This isn't a suggestion just for one person's benefit. The question is not whether one single individual would use it. lrhorer, I think you would agree that not everyone has your same viewing habits.
> 
> I think there would be enough interest from the average Tivo user.


The thing is Tivo competes directly against Motorola, adding features its doesnt have, keeps Tivo relevant. Next year there is supposed to between 2-4 new DVRS available. Its just makes business sense for Tivo to be on step ahead.


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