# SDV Adapter Progress



## britdiver

The post on Tivo's website about the "tuning adapter" was released about Aug 2007 and it states "Tuning Adapter that will enable switched digital channels to be viewed on your TiVo DVR is due out later this year". It's now April 2008. It seems that this might kill off Tivo completely if they don't have a good fix.

I have looked at several threads on this and I didn't see any recent posts.

Anyone (TivoPony?) have any news on this. I will certainly not be buying another Tivo until this is fixed.


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## blacknoi

I'd love to know too as of tomorrow, I'm losing 15 HD channels to Cablevision's decision to implement SDV on the Voom channels (which I LOVE dearly, believe it or not..).

C'mon Tivo, throw us a bone.


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## acvthree

Could Tivo even provide this information? I thought it was dependent on each cable company. Do people think that it will be available on a single release date from all cable TV providers?

Al


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## moyekj

acvthree said:


> Could Tivo even provide this information? I thought it was dependent on each cable company. Do people think that it will be available on a single release date from all cable TV providers?
> 
> Al


 Bingo. At this point since the specs are already in place (Tivo probably had a helping hand in that phase) it's really up to cable box manufacturers first to make the hardware available, then up to your local cable headend to order and make available to customers. Unfortunately I don't see much of a business incentive for the manufacturers or cable companies to get these out quickly (if at all). Hopefully since Tivo has a relationship with Comcast and Cox perhaps they have enough leverage to make it happen eventually, but who knows when... It's already too late for some.


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## madneon

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=145411&site=cdn&f_src=lightreading_FinancialContent And the info is actually from THIS year...


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## ASW

http://www.opencable.com/downloads/oc_interop_0408.pdf

I have 2 S3s and a LCD panel with a cablecard that will be losing 15 VOOM stations today. Thanks for moving to SDV (just?) before having a cablecard solution Cablevision.


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## Gene S

My wish would be to have one in time for the Olympics. I can't watch UniversalHD without it.


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## dig_duggler

Am I the only one who had some blind faith this might get out Q2 and is suddenly getting very pessimistic about our prospects?


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## spolebitski

who is going to provide the adapter ... tivo or the cable company? I'm sure if it is the cable company they are going to stall as long as they can to provide the worst service for the small percentage of people who choose to use the tivo or an alternative dvr.

the cable companies think that because so many people use their dvr it must be the better device


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## britdiver

I posted a couple of messages on the official Tivo forums a few days ago. One was a follow up to a thread about this issue but it hadn't had a post since Sept 2007, and I also started a completely new thread. Not one single reply to either. Amazing. I'm thinking this could slowly kill off Tivo but seems to be flying under the radar. As you say if it ends up being in the hands of the cable companies why would they bother rushing. If Tivo (and cable cards) won't show all channels in the near future, we will have no choice but to go crawling back to the crappy cable company dvr. Tivo needs to be pushing this issue hard and be in control of it. Their the only ones that really have a vested interest in getting this running. Tivo may lead in dvr technology but they really really suck at customer relations. They never give any news about anything (GSOD issue and whether 9.3 has solved it, for example). Also the fact that you can't even email them! To be selling machines and certainly lifetime subscriptions and not be telling people that they may not be able to see all of the channels they pay for, is verging on criminal. Is Tivo about to become the new Betamax?


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## mattack

see the other thread http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=390965


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## mattack

"Official Tivo forums"?? Huh?


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## ASW

I believe the following may have been posted by Tivo in response to postcards recently sent to Cablevision cablecard customers (other than me) who were offered one non-DVR HD box free for one year if they turn in their cablecard(s) in order to continue to receive 15 VOOM HD channels.

I would be surprised if the tuning adapter is not available pretty close to end of Q2 '08, but who knows.

http://tivosupport2.instancy.com/Ti...-88de-4b74-82c1-754c3260112a/ins_content.html


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## ASW

spolebitski said:


> who is going to provide the adapter ... tivo or the cable company?


The cable company.


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## brettatk

So let's think about this now. You are waiting for the Cable Companies to come up with a solution that will enable you to keep using Tivo's DVR instead of the their own. Am I the only one that thinks this isnt likely to happen unless they are forced by the FCC?


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## HDTiVo

ASW said:


> I would be surprised if the tuning adapter is not available pretty close to end of Q2 '08, but who knows.
> 
> http://tivosupport2.instancy.com/Ti...-88de-4b74-82c1-754c3260112a/ins_content.html


I hope you like surprises.

I can´t wait for the threads debating what constitutes the definition of availability...


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## JWThiers

brettatk said:


> So let's think about this now. You are waiting for the Cable Companies to come up with a solution that will enable you to keep using Tivo's DVR instead of the their own. Am I the only one that thinks this isnt likely to happen unless they are forced by the FCC?


I'm sure your aren't the only one, but the one thing that the cable companies want almost as much as people using only their inferior hardware for everything is people using their services. If it makes sense for the Cable Co's financially to provide the SDV adapter they will. If 100 people with Cable Cards all dropped service because they couldn't get the stations they want anymore at $60 a month for Basic (the real number is probably higher), that is $6000 a month that they are no longer taking in. Let your wallet do the talking. I dropped cable in the early 90's in favor of Satellite (first a big dish later DirecTv) and only recently came back. The reason I left was prices. The reason I came back is pricing was nearly the same and I wanted to keep Tivo as a DVR for HD. 15 years at $60 is over $10,000 times 100 people...

With cable cards users being a very small minority (a couple of hundred maybe for each company for each area?) when they finally put everything (or everything they can) on SDV and a CC can't resolve anything, people will either break down and get their equipment or find another way to get the content they want. The other ways might not be as easy record directly from the Cable Company, but they aren't difficult either. Economically, right now if I turned off BHN I would save $90 a month. I can get almost everything I want to watch from OTA or Unbox and still save money. What I cant get is Jon Stewert and Colbert. If I got them from Itunes I just about break even. The price difference is a "convenience fee", for me anyway. Take away that and I am gone.


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## britdiver

mattack said:


> "Official Tivo forums"?? Huh?


The help forums on Tivo's on support part of their website.


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## George Cifranci

mattack said:


> "Official Tivo forums"?? Huh?


Yes...

http://forums.tivo.com/pe/index.jsp?WT.svl=nav


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## ASW

HDTiVo said:


> I hope you like surprises.
> 
> I can´t wait for the threads debating what constitutes the definition of availability...


You too.

http://connectedhome2go.com/2008/04/17/motorola-tuning-resolver-flies-through-cablelabs-interop/


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## brettatk

I hope it's true. I'm sure eventually my cable provider will move to using SDV.


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## Krandor

JWThiers said:


> I'm sure your aren't the only one, but the one thing that the cable companies want almost as much as people using only their inferior hardware for everything is people using their services. If it makes sense for the Cable Co's financially to provide the SDV adapter they will. If 100 people with Cable Cards all dropped service because they couldn't get the stations they want anymore at $60 a month for Basic (the real number is probably higher), that is $6000 a month that they are no longer taking in. Let your wallet do the talking. I dropped cable in the early 90's in favor of Satellite (first a big dish later DirecTv) and only recently came back. The reason I left was prices. The reason I came back is pricing was nearly the same and I wanted to keep Tivo as a DVR for HD. 15 years at $60 is over $10,000 times 100 people...


Bingo. I currently have Cable because I love my TiVo and the features it provides even though I hate some of the things the cable company is doing like HD-Lite. If I get to the point where my TiVo is not useful anymore and I am going to have to get somebody else's DVR then I am going to look very seriously at satellite because of the higher availablity of HD channels without the HD-Lite junk.

I know the cable companies need SDV to be able to approach the number of HD channels that satellite currently has without the HD-Lite stuff, but they need to provide me an option for my TiVo if they want me to stay as a customer. If Tivo stops working I'll probably go satellite.


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## AbMagFab

Krandor said:


> Bingo. I currently have Cable because I love my TiVo and the features it provides even though I hate some of the things the cable company is doing like HD-Lite. If I get to the point where my TiVo is not useful anymore and I am going to have to get somebody else's DVR then I am going to look very seriously at satellite because of the higher availablity of HD channels without the HD-Lite junk.
> 
> I know the cable companies need SDV to be able to approach the number of HD channels that satellite currently has without the HD-Lite stuff, but they need to provide me an option for my TiVo if they want me to stay as a customer. If Tivo stops working I'll probably go satellite.


Satellite is re-compressing all HD into MPEG-4. On a screen of any significant size (like 80"+) the quality reduction is very clear.

You can't do that kind of transcoding and keep the picture pristine.

At this point, only FiOS will be able to maintain full HD quality on all HD channels.


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## Krandor

AbMagFab said:


> Satellite is re-compressing all HD into MPEG-4. On a screen of any significant size (like 80"+) the quality reduction is very clear.
> 
> You can't do that kind of transcoding and keep the picture pristine.
> 
> At this point, only FiOS will be able to maintain full HD quality on all HD channels.


I'm not at 80"+. I am at 58". The problem with the HD-Lite is that with any decent action sequence it pixelates horribly. Some things I can deal with, but the whole screen pixelating on action sequences is very bad. I almost gave up watching Stargate Atlantis on HD because the problem was so bad. It isn't even something that requires an eagle eye viewer with a big screen to see - the issues on HD-Lite are easily seen on any size screen.


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## moyekj

Krandor said:


> I'm not at 80"+. I am at 58". The problem with the HD-Lite is that with any decent action sequence it pixelates horribly. Some things I can deal with, but the whole screen pixelating on action sequences is very bad. I almost gave up watching Stargate Atlantis on HD because the problem was so bad. It isn't even something that requires an eagle eye viewer with a big screen to see - the issues on HD-Lite are easily seen on any size screen.


 Well the HD-Lite term was coined based on what D* and E* have been doing for years with HD feeds, so going to satellite doesn't resolve your problem. Also as mentioned because of the transcoding to mpeg4 from mpeg2 feeds that's another hit on quality.


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## Bodie

In case no one's been paying attention, the cable and satellite companies are not nearly as concerned with keeping existing customers as they are with getting new ones. An SDV dongle would be available tomorrow if they thought it would get them new customers. Until then, there's a 50% chance that we'll ever see it.


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## JWThiers

Bodie said:


> In case no one's been paying attention, the cable and satellite companies are not nearly as concerned with keeping existing customers as they are with getting new ones. An SDV dongle would be available tomorrow if they thought it would get them new customers. Until then, there's a 50% chance that we'll ever see it.


And thats fine by me about half of what I enjoy watching is available OTA for free.Most of the "Cable Shows" are available via unbox, Itunes, or DVD. For $50 a month (basic cable cost - $12 for Tivo) you can get a whole lot of stuff via these "alternate sources". More than I actually watch. Honestly, If my wife didn't have to watch "The Daily Show" and "The Colbert Report" EVERY day (4x/week) at $2 a pop each I would be doing this right now. Our viewing habits have us right about at the break even point. Like I said, for us its a convenience thing. Last time I left cable it took 15 years to get me back. About the only thing I would miss is Monday Night Football. What I really wish is that FIOS would startup in my area. But thats more for internet speed.


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## wildjoe

JWThiers said:


> And thats fine by me about half of what I enjoy watching is available OTA for free.Most of the "Cable Shows" are available via unbox, Itunes, or DVD. For $50 a month (basic cable cost - $12 for Tivo) you can get a whole lot of stuff via these "alternate sources". More than I actually watch. Honestly, If my wife didn't have to watch "The Daily Show" and "The Colbert Report" EVERY day (4x/week) at $2 a pop each I would be doing this right now. Our viewing habits have us right about at the break even point. Like I said, for us its a convenience thing. Last time I left cable it took 15 years to get me back. About the only thing I would miss is Monday Night Football. What I really wish is that FIOS would startup in my area. But thats more for internet speed.


You know you can get the Daily Show from iTunes for $10 for 16 episodes (essentially a month's worth), right? (Same for Colbert.) So you could be paying only $20/month for both.

Also, if you don't mind watching from your PC, you can watch for free on thedailyshow.com and colbertnation.com (there are a few ads, but much less than broadcast).


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## JWThiers

wildjoe said:


> You know you can get the Daily Show from iTunes for $10 for 16 episodes (essentially a month's worth), right? (Same for Colbert.) So you could be paying only $20/month for both.
> 
> Also, if you don't mind watching from your PC, you can watch for free on thedailyshow.com and colbertnation.com (there are a few ads, but much less than broadcast).


I thought it was 16 for $20, Anyway in general they are about $2 a show and it made casual discussion a bit easier. I'll have to double check now. I'll have to give it more consideration, do more math, and maybe push the issue with the wife if savings get above $20 or so a month. Ease of use is important for my wife, so I'll pay up to that to avoid the headache when a show doesn't automagically transfer properly.


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## wildjoe

JWThiers said:


> I thought it was 16 for $20, Anyway in general they are about $2 a show and it made casual discussion a bit easier. I'll have to double check now. I'll have to give it more consideration, do more math, and maybe push the issue with the wife if savings get above $20 or so a month. Ease of use is important for my wife, so I'll pay up to that to avoid the headache when a show doesn't automagically transfer properly.


Nope, it's $10 for 16 episodes. 62 cents an episode. Gotta love that.

I still have my basic cable though for two reasons: 1) live sports on ESPN and FSN, 2) so my old S2 in my bedroom will still work after the Feb 2009 DTV switch.

It still saves me a ton of money getting my HD via OTA. The picture is better too. Oh, and no cable card hassle.


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## TexasGrillChef

JWThiers said:


> I thought it was 16 for $20, Anyway in general they are about $2 a show and it made casual discussion a bit easier. I'll have to double check now. I'll have to give it more consideration, do more math, and maybe push the issue with the wife if savings get above $20 or so a month. Ease of use is important for my wife, so I'll pay up to that to avoid the headache when a show doesn't automagically transfer properly.


Since you can watch both shows "ONLINE", WHEN the SlingCatcher becomes available. You could easily watch those on your TV as well.

TGC


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## weeds

This was at Engadget. http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/04/21/motorolas-mtr700-tuning-resolver-edges-closer-to-release/


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## Monty2_2001

weeds said:


> This was at Engadget. http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/04/21/motorolas-mtr700-tuning-resolver-edges-closer-to-release/


Fantastic.

Interesting how it doesn't have USB though (in the pictures). This can work with the S3?

Edit: Nevermind, apparently the pics aren't of the resolver.


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## thehepcat

hopefully more solid information will come out at the cable show next month in NO


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## ASW

Highlights of CableNet 2008 (May 18-20):

"Motorola will demonstrate its MTR700 Tuning Adapter which connects unidirectional UDCPs (including a TiVo device, in specific) to a cable network, accessing multimedia content in the cable networks switched digital video (SDV) tier. Seamless tuning of the TiVo device across both broadcast and SDV tiers will be shown. . . . "

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/...d=news_view&newsId=20080421005944&newsLang=en


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## dolfer

moyekj said:


> Bingo. At this point since the specs are already in place (Tivo probably had a helping hand in that phase) it's really up to cable box manufacturers first to make the hardware available, then up to your local cable headend to order and make available to customers. Unfortunately I don't see much of a business incentive for the manufacturers or cable companies to get these out quickly (if at all). Hopefully since Tivo has a relationship with Comcast and Cox perhaps they have enough leverage to make it happen eventually, but who knows when... It's already too late for some.


I think the cable companies are in no position to p*ss Tivo off in lieu of the recent court decisions. I think each and every cable co that employs a generic DVR is at big risk. Either license Tivo software or try to fight and most likely lose... resulting in big damage award to Tivo.


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## ZeoTiVo

dolfer said:


> I think the cable companies are in no position to p*ss Tivo off in lieu of the recent court decisions. I think each and every cable co that employs a generic DVR is at big risk. Either license Tivo software or try to fight and most likely lose... resulting in big damage award to Tivo.


it has been years and massive lawyer fees and unwanted bad feelings from DISH consumers. I do not think TiVo is looking to become some patent revenue pariah. Further just being a DVR does not make it infringing.

So sure TiVo may fire off the big gun if some cable company is costing them subscribers but it would not be a slam dunk even then. Now cable keeping the FCC from feeling it needs to step in and throw around some more regulations - that is an incentive to move tuner resolver through.

bottom line though
Bad service or screwed up billing is one thing - but channels not available means lower revenues or subscribers going to a service that can provide them. That is driving the dongle even harder than any fear of l;egal hassles.


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## JWThiers

TexasGrillChef said:


> Since you can watch both shows "ONLINE", WHEN the SlingCatcher becomes available. You could easily watch those on your TV as well.
> 
> TGC


Its an option, But 2 things. 

It has to be easy (i.e. seamless) or the SAF (Spouse Approval Factor) drops to zero quickly.
UNTIL it becomes available it is still vaporware.
I'm running some tests with Itunes and TDT Plus now. I have to give pytivo a shot also.


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## ASW

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=152093&site=cdn&f_src=lightreading_sitedefault

June (or July) may be a good month for Tivo S3 and HD owners.


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## spolebitski

I think this is great ... but i don't want to add another box to my current mess of boxes (TiVo S2, Tivo HD, DVD Player, Wii), the back of my tv looks like a mess of wires!

It would be cool if was like a thumb drive that could plug in the back usb port ... i'm not an engineer or technical in design of gadgets so I have no clue how design of something like this goes


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## ASW

spolebitski said:


> I think this is great ... but i don't want to add another box to my current mess of boxes (TiVo S2, Tivo HD, DVD Player, Wii), the back of my tv looks like a mess of wires!
> 
> It would be cool if was like a thumb drive that could plug in the back usb port ... i'm not an engineer or technical in design of gadgets so I have no clue how design of something like this goes


Not gonna be at least at first - if ever. Another box is better than reduced programming until the next generation of tru2way tivos is available.


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## DallasFlier

AbMagFab said:


> Satellite is re-compressing all HD into MPEG-4. *On a screen of any significant size (like 80"+) the quality reduction is very clear.*
> 
> You can't do that kind of transcoding and keep the picture pristine.
> 
> At this point, only FiOS will be able to maintain full HD quality on all HD channels.


Now I don't like the compression either, but... You're trying to say that only those who have 80"+ HDTV's have units of "any significant size"???  Now THAT'S funny! Based on your definition, I'm guessing the market penetration of "significant sized" HDTV is then less than 1%.


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## vstone

I'm not sure why you think that MPEG-4 is the problem. It whatever bit rate they allow to a given compression scheme.

If you watch a network broadcast from a local station over D* or E*, you are watching signal that probably originated as a compressed MPEG-2 signal. It could be decoded and reencoded as part of the n etwork broadcast. When it reached the local station it is decoded, mixed with local content and reencoded (except FOX, whose stations splice directly into the actual network signal). It might be decoded and reencoded at the local satellite pickoff point. I don't know if they encode directly for transmission at the pickup point or at the uplink site, but eithere way you're several generations from the original signal, regardless of whether they use MPEG2 or MPEG4. They could probably improve your MPEG4 signal with a higher bit rate, assumming that their encoding equipment is reasonably efficient.


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## slimoli

All MPEG4 channels on Directv look much better than the MPEG2 ones. MPEG2 require more space and are much more compressed.


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## menos

Did anybody catch the part of the article above that mentioned that Cisco plans on offering the tuning adapter through the cable co and not as a retail device? Hello additional monthly fees


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## ASW

menos said:


> Did anybody catch the part of the article above that mentioned that Cisco plans on offering the tuning adapter through the cable co and not as a retail device? Hello additional monthly fees


That has always been the plan. No one has any idea about pricing yet as far as I know.


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## AbMagFab

vstone said:


> I'm not sure why you think that MPEG-4 is the problem. It whatever bit rate they allow to a given compression scheme.
> 
> If you watch a network broadcast from a local station over D* or E*, you are watching signal that probably originated as a compressed MPEG-2 signal. It could be decoded and reencoded as part of the n etwork broadcast. When it reached the local station it is decoded, mixed with local content and reencoded (except FOX, whose stations splice directly into the actual network signal). It might be decoded and reencoded at the local satellite pickoff point. I don't know if they encode directly for transmission at the pickup point or at the uplink site, but eithere way you're several generations from the original signal, regardless of whether they use MPEG2 or MPEG4. They could probably improve your MPEG4 signal with a higher bit rate, assumming that their encoding equipment is reasonably efficient.


It's partly about bitrate, but mostly about re-encoding. Any time this is done, it's going to cause a quality loss. All the compression schemes we're talking about are not lossless, meaning something is lost in the process. So transcoding from one lossy scheme (MPEG-2) to another (MPEG-4) is going to result in additional quality loss, there's no real way around it (except theoretically, and who cares about that, we're in reality here).

So perhaps the MPEG-4's look better than the MPEG-2's, but that's just saying they look slightly less crappy. You need to compare the MPEG-4's to source MPEG-2's, like on FiOS. There is where you see a significant quality difference, especially on larger screens.


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## morac

Some stations, like HBO, actually send out their signal compressed in MPEG-4 format. So in those cases, MPEG-2 broadcasts will be the one with additional quality loss when compared with MPEG-4 broadcasts.

MPEG-4 is a new codec and much more efficient than MPEG-2. The only reason MPEG-2 is still mainly in use is because MPEG-4 was introduced (in 1998) too late to be part of the digital television standards in the U.S.


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## lrhorer

slimoli said:


> MPEG2 require more space and are much more compressed.


If a payload takes more space, then it is less compressed, not more. MPEG-4 is generally much more highly compressed than MPEG-2, but it employs a completely different method of compression which allows for generally comparable video quality at much higher compression ratios than MPEG-2.


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## lrhorer

menos said:


> Did anybody catch the part of the article above that mentioned that Cisco plans on offering the tuning adapter through the cable co and not as a retail device?


What else would you suggest? I think very few people wold like to buy a box which has less than a 50% chance of working with their CATV setup, or which will more than likely quit working when they move to another city.


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## slimoli

lrhorer said:


> If a payload takes more space, then it is less compressed, not more. MPEG-4 is generally much more highly compressed than MPEG-2, but it employs a completely different method of compression which allows for generally comparable video quality at much higher compression ratios than MPEG-2.


Wrong. I said the MPEG2 is more compressed on Directv than the MPEG4 because they have to squeeze more bytes on the same channel. Let's say a original 2 hours movie from HDNET Movies in MPEG2 should use 20 GB and 13 GB in MPEG4: Directv is compressing the bitrate on the MPEG2 and if you record the file you will see it's about 60% of the size it should be. The MPEG4 is more "efficient" and doesn't need to be more "compressed".

I am talking about QUALITY and , again, a "re-compressed" MPEG2 looks much worse than a "Non-recompressed" MPEG4.

You may say a "pure" MPEG2 can look better than a "pure" MPEG4 but this is not true in real world. We are talking about Directv and other providers which are using MPEG4 now with a BETTER quality than their old MPEG2. That's because their MPEG2 is MORE compressed than their MPEG4 . Clear now ?


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## Rolow

lrhorer said:


> What else would you suggest? I think very few people wold like to buy a box which has less than a 50% chance of working with their CATV setup, or which will more than likely quit working when they move to another city.


 I think the point was he does not want his monthly payment to go up. I bought a tivo because Cox Phoenix was charging me $23 for an HD DVR I pay 6.95 for my tivo and 2.00 for my CC. I'll turn off my cable before i add any more to my monthly payment I wont mind a single payment if its reasonable. I have another tivo HD thats ota only because I wont pay there ridicules $50 truck roll for a new card.


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## ASW

Rolow said:


> I think the point was he does not want his monthly payment to go up. I bought a tivo because Cox Phoenix was charging me $23 for an HD DVR I pay 6.95 for my tivo and 2.00 for my CC. I'll turn off my cable before i add any more to my monthly payment I wont mind a single payment if its reasonable. I have another tivo HD thats ota only because I wont pay there ridicules $50 truck roll for a new card.


Again, no one has any idea about pricing yet and there has been a fair amount of speculation that tuning adapters will be offered for free. I am hardly a Cablevision fan, but it would not be unreasonable for them to charge some fee for this box if I want it - Cablevision is not getting it for free.

To me, it is important that I have the option of receiving SDV on my Tivo 
S-3s, even if it costs me $1 or $2 or whatever per month or even if I have to pay a one-time fee. Of course if people do not want to pay any fee that may apply to tuning adapters when they become available, they can live without whatever SDV offerings their cable company has or will have in the future.


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## JacksTiVo

ASW said:


> Again, no one has any idea about pricing yet and there has been a fair amount of speculation that tuning adapters will be offered for free. I am hardly a Cablevision fan, but it would not be unreasonable for them to charge some fee for this box if I want it - Cablevision is not getting it for free.
> 
> To me, it is important that I have the option of receiving SDV on my Tivo
> S-3s, even if it costs me $1 or $2 or whatever per month or even if I have to pay a one-time fee. Of course if people do not want to pay any fee that may apply to tuning adapters when they become available, they can live without whatever SDV offerings their cable company has or will have in the future.


Being a Cablevision subscriber for some 20 plus years, I can assure you that the tuning adapters will not be free, the monthly fee will be at least the same as a cable card ($2/mo) but probably more, they will charge you for a truck roll to "install it" ($45?) and send a technician from a contractor to install it that has no idea what he/she is doing.

My solution to Cablevision's arrogance and their SDV conversion is to leave them next week for FiOS. They called me after I complained and told me it was a "business decision" to convert to SDV and they have the one year free STB offer to replace the CableCards in my S3. Their business decision is to make the users of high definition TiVo boxes pay significantly more for service so that their DVR offerings become financially attractive, even though they have inferior software as compared to TiVo.

Remember Cablevision is the cable company that is fighting in court with the movie studios so that they can offer DVR service from a central location to negate the need for a STB DVR or TiVo in the home. SDV can be the beginning of the implementation of this strategy if they are successful in court.

As they say in TV land, stay tuned, there is more bad news to follow.


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## vstone

AbMagFab said:


> It's partly about bitrate, but mostly about re-encoding. Any time this is done, it's going to cause a quality loss. All the compression schemes we're talking about are not lossless, meaning something is lost in the process. So transcoding from one lossy scheme (MPEG-2) to another (MPEG-4) is going to result in additional quality loss, there's no real way around it (except theoretically, and who cares about that, we're in reality here).
> 
> So perhaps the MPEG-4's look better than the MPEG-2's, but that's just saying they look slightly less crappy. You need to compare the MPEG-4's to source MPEG-2's, like on FiOS. There is where you see a significant quality difference, especially on larger screens.


There is no reason to believe that decoding MPEG2 and then reencoding MPEG2 would be any better than decoding MPEG2 and reencoding MPEG4. It's still transcoding (to use your term) whether or not the resultant stream is MPEG2 or MPEG4. And there will be a loss with each generation, the issue is how much of the loss is visible, which in turn is highly dependent on the bitrate and the efficiency of the encoding algorithm.


----------



## ASW

JacksTiVo said:


> Being a Cablevision subscriber for some 20 plus years, I can assure you that the tuning adapters will not be free, the monthly fee will be at least the same as a cable card ($2/mo) but probably more, they will charge you for a truck roll to "install it" ($45?) and send a technician from a contractor to install it that has no idea what he/she is doing.
> 
> My solution to Cablevision's arrogance and their SDV conversion is to leave them next week for FiOS. They called me after I complained and told me it was a "business decision" to convert to SDV and they have the one year free STB offer to replace the CableCards in my S3. Their business decision is to make the users of high definition TiVo boxes pay significantly more for service so that their DVR offerings become financially attractive, even though they have inferior software as compared to TiVo.
> 
> Remember Cablevision is the cable company that is fighting in court with the movie studios so that they can offer DVR service from a central location to negate the need for a STB DVR or TiVo in the home. SDV can be the beginning of the implementation of this strategy if they are successful in court.
> 
> As they say in TV land, stay tuned, there is more bad news to follow.


I guess regardless of past practice, it is hard to be sure about tuning adapter pricing by any cable company since the product does not exist yet. I would rather wait until I get real pricing information before I get all upset with Cablevision on this one. I agree that the timing of switching VOOM stations to SDV with a tuning adapter around the corner was unfortunate (and I told Cablevision, the FCC and the NJ cable commission that). However, ultimately SDV will result in expanded service, which benefits me if I can receive it on my Tivo.

FiOs is not an option in my area, but even if it were (i) I seriously doubt that Verizon will be any better than any other cable TV provider over time (and my experience with DirecTV, which dropped Tivo support altogether after purchasing a DVR manufacturer and which locks you into a 2-year contract every time you purchase new equipment and imposes a penalty if you drop your service, suggests it could be worse than Cablevision) and (ii) I would not be getting much more (if anything) in the way of additional HD programming (and no MSG HD) even after the recent VOOM switch to SDV.


----------



## PhiTauBill

from the FCC or NJ BPU (Cable Division)?



ASW said:


> I guess regardless of past practice, it is hard to be sure about tuning adapter pricing by any cable company since the product does not exist yet. I would rather wait until I get real pricing information before I get all upset with Cablevision on this one. I agree that the timing of switching VOOM stations to SDV with a tuning adapter around the corner was unfortunate (and I told Cablevision, the FCC and the NJ cable commission that). However, ultimately SDV will result in expanded service, which benefits me if I can receive it on my Tivo.
> g (and no MSG HD) even after the recent VOOM switch to SDV.


----------



## JacksTiVo

PhiTauBill said:


> from the FCC or NJ BPU (Cable Division)?


I have posted elsewhere about my experience with Cablevision (see: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315826). I too had written the FCC and the NJBPU and never received a response. However, I did receive a call from Cablevision and I believe it was initiated as a result of my writing the FCC or NJBPU.

The Cablevision representative told me that the switch to SDV was a business decision by Cablevision and that I had the offer to swap the CableCards for a STB. I explained to her that with a TiVo S3 their offer was of no value to me and I asked why they could not wait until the SDV adapter was available and that in the meantime I would be paying the same for less service. I don't believe she had a clue about what I was talking about. I ended the conversation with a pleasant thank you and told her I would make my "business" decision as how to proceed.

I switched to Verizon FiOS on Wednesday. I called Cablevision that evening to cancel my service immediately. I must have been on the telephone with the representative for 15 minutes while he tried to stop me from canceling. I kept telling him that although the deal from Verizon would save me about $8 per month the issue was the conversion to SDV without any assurance that the SDV adapter would be made available to us or that it would be priced reasonably. He even offered me free basic TV service for one month not to cancel.

On Thursday, I receive another call from Cablevision. This person was really upset since I have been a customer for 26 years and she wanted to know why I was leaving. I again mentioned the SDV issue and said that I will be now receiving superior service with the newest technology at a better price. Here is the kicker to those of you who elect to stay with Cablevision, she then offered me a price that was about $9/month lower than Verizon for a two year period (same time-frame as Verizon). So my cable cost would have been about $17/month less if I stayed with Cablevision, but I would still have the SDV issue to face. The question is why aren't they lower their rates so you do not even consider leaving them (no answer required, they do not want to impair their earnings).

If you decide to stay, get a quote from Verizon for FiOS service and tell Cablevision that you want them to beat it. Let us know what happens.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

JacksTiVo said:


> On Thursday, I receive another call from Cablevision. This person was really upset since I have been a customer for 26 years and she wanted to know why I was leaving. I again mentioned the SDV issue


Sure its a business decision on Cablevision's part - but the business decision of a 26 year customer to terminate the business relationship should make them revisit their business decision


----------



## bizzy

ZeoTiVo said:


> Sure its a business decision on Cablevision's part - but the business decision of a 26 year customer to terminate the business relationship should make them revisit their business decision


Churn is not a major issue in their decision-making process; in fact, they make a lot of their ARPU off new signups. So maybe they have made the correct business decisions, given their priorities.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

bizzy said:


> Churn is not a major issue in their decision-making process; in fact, they make a lot of their ARPU off new signups. So maybe they have made the correct business decisions, given their priorities.


Seemed to me readng the post that Cablevision was not at all good with loosing a 26 year customer. Sure one customer as a singular case does not negate everything else but it should wake them up that they need to get the "SDV dongle" out there or loose some good customers that were otherwise very solid on staying with cablevision. Customers will put up with a lot but not having access to channels is not one of them


----------



## bizzy

I am sure someone at Cablevision has done at least a quick analysis of how many customers they have using cablecards; and come to the conclusion that almost any additional engineering resources dedicated to cablecard issues would be a waste of money.

For large MSOs cablecard-using customers are a marginal and almost negligible population. If you want to get angry about it, blame the impotent and crooked FCC, not the cable co that is simply reacting to the market.


----------



## lrhorer

slimoli said:


> Wrong. I said the MPEG2 is more compressed on Directv than the MPEG4 because they have to squeeze more bytes on the same channel.


Nonsense. They can choose whatever bit rate they like.



slimoli said:


> Let's say a original 2 hours movie from HDNET Movies in MPEG2 should use 20 GB and 13 GB in MPEG4:


There is no "should". For a given quality of signal, MPEG-4 encoding generally enjoys much higher compression ratios. It's that simple.



slimoli said:


> Directv is compressing the bitrate on the MPEG2


Both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 are compressed. There wouldn't be any point to either if they were not. How much is at the discretion of the entity doing the compression. Generally speaking, a higher compression will require a much greater amount of CPU resources and will result in decreased quality.



slimoli said:


> if you record the file you will see it's about 60% of the size it should be. The MPEG4 is more "efficient" and doesn't need to be more "compressed".


The fact it is smaller means it is more compressed, period. The fact MPEG-4 generally can produce a very similar video quality at higher compression ratios does not change the fact. Uncompressed 1080i digital video is close to 3Gbps, no matter how it is encoded. That includes MPEG-2 and MPEG-4.



slimoli said:


> I am talking about QUALITY and , again, a "re-compressed" MPEG2 looks much worse than a "Non-recompressed" MPEG4.


The use of the prefix "re" suggests you are talking about recoding the video. Any time video is recoded, it's quality is going to suffer some. This is true no matter what the coding scheme or how much compression is employed at any point along the way. Increasing the amount of compression of a virgin stream will also result in a decrease in quality, again no matter what the coding scheme and quite apart from any recoding.



slimoli said:


> You may say a "pure" MPEG2 can look better than a "pure" MPEG4 but this is not true in real world.


I have no idea what you think is meant by "pure" in this context. Since neither MPEG-2 nor MPEG-4 are lossless, at some point of compression an MPEG-4 video is going to look worse than the same video encoded as MPEG-2 at a given (reasonable) bit rate. Generally speaking, this point lies somewhere between 25% to 50% of the MPEG-2 bit rate, depending upon the content.



slimoli said:


> We are talking about Directv and other providers which are using MPEG4 now with a BETTER quality than their old MPEG2. That's because their MPEG2 is MORE compressed than their MPEG4 .


I would be shocked if they are sending their MPEG-2 streams at a lower bit rate than their MPEG-4. They would look much worse, if so. If they are sent at a higher bit rate, then they are less compressed, not more, no matter how they look. If they are sent at the same bit rate their their compression is precisely identical. MPEG-2 video sent at the same compression ratio as MPEG-4 will generally look much worse, unless the compression is quite moderate.



slimoli said:


> Clear now ?


The situation was never unclear to me. I'm not sure why you think you could clear it up for me.


----------



## lrhorer

Rolow said:


> I think the point was he does not want his monthly payment to go up.


I don't want it to, either, but that's not the point. Since each tuning resolver is going to work only with one particular type of equipment, how could a retail outlet be established for the devices? A resolver which works in New York City many not work in Albany. For that matter, a resolver which works on the west side of Chicago may not work on the east side. In fact, there are two different cable companies available in my neighborhood; Grande and Time Warner. A dongle which works on TWC is very likely not to work on Grande, so if I switch from TWC to Grande I'll need a new dongle. Actually, since I have 3 TiVos I'll need 3 new dongles. It's true there are a limited number of protocols out there, but there are more than one. What happens when the consumer pays, say, $75 for a dongle and then two months later has to move and he needs a different dongle? Can you imagine what happens when a clueless sales clerk at Best buy tries to sell a clueless customer one of these devices? Worse yet, what about internet sales?

The only reasonable answeris to have the CATV companies be responsible for distribution of the dongles. That this may allow them to gouge us on the price is an unfortunate fact.


----------



## AbMagFab

lrhorer said:


> I don't want it to, either, but that's not the point. Since each tuning resolver is going to work only with one particular type of equipment, how could a retail outlet be established for the devices? A resolver which works in New York City many not work in Albany. For that matter, a resolver which works on the west side of Chicago may not work on the east side. In fact, there are two different cable companies available in my neighborhood; Grande and Time Warner. A dongle which works on TWC is very likely not to work on Grande, so if I switch from TWC to Grande I'll need a new dongle. Actually, since I have 3 TiVos I'll need 3 new dongles. It's true there are a limited number of protocols out there, but there are more than one. What happens when the consumer pays, say, $75 for a dongle and then two months later has to move and he needs a different dongle? Can you imagine what happens when a clueless sales clerk at Best buy tries to sell a clueless customer one of these devices? Worse yet, what about internet sales?
> 
> The only reasonable answeris to have the CATV companies be responsible for distribution of the dongles. That this may allow them to gouge us on the price is an unfortunate fact.


No, the only reasonable answer is that the dongle be standardized like cable modems. I can go out and buy a cable modem from BB or CC. There's no reason why the dongle can't behave the same way.

Except, of course, because cable companies are myred with their monopolistic past, and still don't understand that they should be treating customers like clients.


----------



## ah30k

AbMagFab said:


> No, the only reasonable answer is that the dongle be standardized like cable modems. .. There's no reason why the dongle can't behave the same way.
> 
> Except, of course, because cable companies are myred with their monopolistic past, and still don't understand that they should be treating customers like clients.


There are at least three competing technologies for SDV. Which one would you choose to be the standard? Or, who do you think should pick the standard?


----------



## ASW

PhiTauBill said:


> from the FCC or NJ BPU (Cable Division)?


FCC sent a card saying not within their jurisdiction. Nothing from NJ as of yet.


----------



## jrm01

AbMagFab said:


> I can go out and buy a cable modem from BB or CC.


Huh?? What cable modem have you ever seen there (except for TiVo HD)?


----------



## ah30k

jrm01 said:


> Huh?? What cable modem have you ever seen there (except for TiVo HD)?


Do a search, there are three cable modems on the BB web site. Two from Mot and one from Zoom. Also, the TiVo HD is not a cable modem. I think you may be confused.


----------



## jrm01

ah30k said:


> Do a search, there are three cable modems on the BB web site. Two from Mot and one from Zoom. Also, the TiVo HD is not a cable modem. I think you may be confused.


You're darn right I'm confused. I read "cable modem" as "cablebox". Time for more coffee.


----------



## classicsat

AbMagFab said:


> No, the only reasonable answer is that the dongle be standardized like cable modems. I can go out and buy a cable modem from BB or CC. There's no reason why the dongle can't behave the same way.


The reason is because the Tuning Adapters are not cable modems, but what amounts, to the cable side, a cable box.

Yes, they could have made a retailable "open" box that would download the firmware and whatever identifies it to a particular platform and provider, but the fact is they haven't. Doing that would take a few years of development.
Modding an existing cable box platform is almost turnkey.



> Except, of course, because cable companies are myred with their monopolistic past, and still don't understand that they should be treating customers like clients.


The current (small picture) situation of having to get a TA from the provider has little to do with their monopolistic business practices. It has to do with competing technology providers doing things different enough to need different hardware.

It does in the greater picture though, with them not coming up with a better universal two way and security scheme earlier.


----------



## AbMagFab

ah30k said:


> There are at least three competing technologies for SDV. Which one would you choose to be the standard? Or, who do you think should pick the standard?


That's my point. There's no reason why they can't agree to a standard, which if they didn't think like monopolies, they would.

But they don't.

I couldn't care less which one they pick. Just pick one so CES devices can incorporate it.

They managed to do it with DOCSIS, but they failed with SDV.


----------



## sfhub

lrhorer said:


> I don't want it to, either, but that's not the point. Since each tuning resolver is going to work only with one particular type of equipment, how could a retail outlet be established for the devices?


Sounds like the same pre-conditions as DCAS but they say they can get that working. If there is a will there is a way. It could involve an automatic bootstrap that downloads the SDV specific code when the resolver is plugged in. There just happens to be no will in this case.

Saying it can't be done technically will be disputed. Saying they aren't doing it, there will be no dispute.


----------



## sfhub

AbMagFab said:


> That's my point. There's no reason why they can't agree to a standard, which if they didn't think like monopolies, they would.


It is true there are many things they could do.

IMO they just said this is a one off solution for TiVo so let's just spend the minimal effort on it to get it up and running.

Even though they are treating like a general solution for many devices from a spec and testing standpoint, realistically managment realizes there will probably be no other devices using this adapter because the newer devices will concede to cable's way to access the system and older devices won't (or can't) get updates to use the resolver.

It is also good for cable's reputation to be able to point out that they came out with a generic solution to address SDV concerns and are behaving as a good citizen.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

AbMagFab said:


> That's my point. There's no reason why they can't agree to a standard, which if they didn't think like monopolies, they would.
> 
> But they don't.
> 
> I couldn't care less which one they pick. Just pick one so CES devices can incorporate it.
> 
> They managed to do it with DOCSIS, but they failed with SDV.


the SDV dongle is really just a stopgap though. Seems like tru2way is being pointed out as the real solution and is being worked as a common standard. I would rather cable companies come out with a SDV adapter faster rather than spend time in standards bodies meetings.


----------



## slimoli

lrhorer said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> Yep. Nonsense. I can't make you understand it even in a hundred years. Anyway, my post was directed to the board as a whole, to avoid the misunderstand about MPEG2 being better than MPEG4 IN PRACTICAL TERMS, or in other words, compared with material from the same source. Directv is still using both codecs and unless you are blind MPEG4 wins hands down. The reason, again, is because they send MPEG2 more compressed than MPEG4 relatively to the original.


----------



## AbMagFab

slimoli said:


> lrhorer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense.
> 
> Yep. Nonsense. I can't make you understand it even in a hundred years. Anyway, my post was directed to the board as a whole, to avoid the misunderstand about MPEG2 being better than MPEG4 IN PRACTICAL TERMS, or in other words, compared with material from the same source. Directv is still using both codecs and unless you are blind MPEG4 wins hands down. The reason, again, is because they send MPEG2 more compressed than MPEG4 relatively to the original.
> 
> 
> 
> And MPEG2 on FiOS wins hands down over MPEG4 on DirecTV. So what?
Click to expand...


----------



## AbMagFab

ZeoTiVo said:


> the SDV dongle is really just a stopgap though. Seems like tru2way is being pointed out as the real solution and is being worked as a common standard. I would rather cable companies come out with a SDV adapter faster rather than spend time in standards bodies meetings.


tru2way (at least my understanding of it) is a horrible solution. Basically saying "go ahead an manufacture a box, and we'll download whatever UI/system we want on it"?

That's not a standard.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

AbMagFab said:


> tru2way (at least my understanding of it) is a horrible solution. Basically saying "go ahead an manufacture a box, and we'll download whatever UI/system we want on it"?
> 
> That's not a standard.


I agree - would have been nice for something less involved but that is not what is.
The Series 4 will not be what you describe as TiVo is working out a way to have the download UI part for the PPV/VOD only - which seems fair since it is the cable companies stuff and not TiVo's anyway.

Still tru2way is gaining a lot of traction as the standard acros cable companies and since it handle SDV issues internally and allows for interaction with cbale company and access to their PPV/VOD - having a standard (of whatever sort) is MUCH better then the old standoff that left us with one way cable cards and SDV hassles.


----------



## slimoli

AbMagFab said:


> slimoli said:
> 
> 
> 
> And MPEG2 on FiOS wins hands down over MPEG4 on DirecTV. So what?
> 
> 
> 
> So what ?? We are not talking about FIOS because it has bandwidth enough to send MPEG2 WITHOUT major compressing. Cable companies, providers for more than 90% of the users here, don't have enough bandwidth to send MPEG2 as is. That's the key point here and you are also missing it. If they switch to MPEG4 the picture will IMPROVE because less bandwidth is necessary. That's the real world: Directv, DISH and MOST of the cable companies are compressing MPEG2 beyond acceptable levels. Again, Directv is a good example because the use both MPEG2 and 4.
Click to expand...


----------



## AbMagFab

slimoli said:


> AbMagFab said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what ?? We are not talking about FIOS because it has bandwidth enough to send MPEG2 WITHOUT major compressing. Cable companies, providers for more than 90% of the users here, don't have enough bandwidth to send MPEG2 as is. That's the key point here and you are also missing it. If they switch to MPEG4 the picture will IMPROVE because less bandwidth is necessary. That's the real world: Directv, DISH and MOST of the cable companies are compressing MPEG2 beyond acceptable levels. Again, Directv is a good example because the use both MPEG2 and 4.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not really about the compression scheme, it's about the dials they turn. They could easily make MPEG-4 look worse than MPEG-2 (as can be seen when comparing FiOS to DirecTV). So simply switching a compression scheme doesn't magically get you better picture quality.
> 
> Alterrnatively, they could keep MPEG-2 and:
> - Remove analog channels to free up bandwidth
> - Convert to SDV
> - Remove SD versions of HD channels
> 
> And many other options, I'm sure.
> 
> The issue is really that cable companies don't seem to care about a degraded picture, so they're happy to send it to you. Otherwise they'd look for alternatives to improve it.
Click to expand...


----------



## ah30k

slimoli said:


> So what ?? We are not talking about FIOS because it has bandwidth enough to send MPEG2 WITHOUT major compressing.


This is where I am having a real hard time following the logic. MPEG2 absolutely IS major compressed.

The bottom line is that MPEG4 usually gets much more compression for an equivalent visual quality. You could dial each one to make it look worse or better.


----------



## slimoli

AbMagFab said:


> slimoli said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not really about the compression scheme, it's about the dials they turn. They could easily make MPEG-4 look worse than MPEG-2 (as can be seen when comparing FiOS to DirecTV). So simply switching a compression scheme doesn't magically get you better picture quality.
> 
> Alterrnatively, they could keep MPEG-2 and:
> - Remove analog channels to free up bandwidth
> - Convert to SDV
> - Remove SD versions of HD channels
> 
> And many other options, I'm sure.
> 
> The issue is really that cable companies don't seem to care about a degraded picture, so they're happy to send it to you. Otherwise they'd look for alternatives to improve it.
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree with you. I have one of the worst (and most expensive) cable, Atlantic Broadband. They don't have the money to rewire everything in order to accomodate all the shopping, religious and foreign channels plus the good stuff. The result is a very compressed MPEG2 picture. I believe that if they change to MPEG4 the picture will improve, not because MPEG4 is better but because heavy compression won't be necessary. Don't forget that there is also a lot of viewers that don't really care about quality and are always demanding more channels. More channels, more compression.
Click to expand...


----------



## ah30k

When you say major compression, perhaps you mean additional compression over and above the standard level (if that exists) of compression.


----------



## classicsat

lrhorer said:


> Since each tuning resolver is going to work only with one particular type of equipment, how could a retail outlet be established for the devices?


Under the current system, the addressable equipment has to be distributed through a particular provider.

With that, if a cable provider were to take the notion to sell their hardware, they'd have to sell it through their store front, or work out deals with local retailers. Now, MSOs could partner with major retailers to sell local boxes in local stores. This is some what how it happens in Canada, where customer owned cable equipment is the norm.

Customers have to do their due diligence to to ensure the equipment they own or intend to buy will work on the system they intend to use it on, and the provider is willing and able to authorise it.


----------



## moyekj

I think the point is that with MPEG4 you can achieve higher compression than MPEG2 without noticeably impacting quality. Therefore, if both are transmitted at same bitrate then the MPEG4 quality should be better in that it is carrying more in terms of the original uncompressed video per compressed bit compared to MPEG2. Stated a different way if you encode uncompressed video to 8GB MPEG4 and 8GB MPEG2, the 8GB MPEG4 should look better.

Of course the problem with D* is in many cases they have to transcode source MPEG2 -> MPEG4 before transmission which will mean worse quality compared to the original MPEG2.


----------



## classicsat

AbMagFab said:


> They managed to do it with DOCSIS, but they failed with SDV.


They couldn't.
Here is why:

The SDV adapter itself is not a simple 2-way/back communications device, but half a cable box itself, and as such has to match what the existing cable network is.

Cable systems use different combinations of hardware and software platforms. Although the various permutations are small, they are too many to reasonably build into one piece of hardware today.

The promise was this spring, or at least this summer/fall.
The only time reasonable solution is to make the platform specific half cable box Tuning Adapter. To make a universal Tuning Adapter might extend that another year or more.
Now, if so inclined, they could make a 2nd Gen TA that is universal, but I doubt they will.


----------



## ah30k

classicsat said:


> The promise was this spring, or at least this summer/fall.


Why do people keep saying the promise was time-x? I really don't recall any promise by anyone.

I don't mean to pick on words, but people set false expectations for themselves and others when they look at a forward looking press release by a someone saying what they expect someone else to produce at some time in the future and then think that is a promise. The makers of the adapter (Mot and SA) never made any promises.

I've seen it many times here referred to as a promise.


----------



## slimoli

ah30k said:


> When you say major compression, perhaps you mean additional compression over and above the standard level (if that exists) of compression.


Yes,yes,yes !!!Thank you very much . You made it now short and sweet !


----------



## ASW

ah30k said:


> Why do people keep saying the promise was time-x? I really don't recall any promise by anyone.
> 
> I don't mean to pick on words, but people set false expectations for themselves and others when they look at a forward looking press release by a someone saying what they expect someone else to produce at some time in the future and then think that is a promise. The makers of the adapter (Mot and SA) never made any promises.
> 
> I've seen it many times here referred to as a promise.


Maybe not quite a promise, but CableLabs issued a press release (saying it was working on the tuning resolver along with TiVo, Motorola, Scientific-Atlanta, BigBand Networks and C-COR) in November that set expectations when its president, Richard Green, stated:

"the new adapter will solve the switched digital issue for UDCPs that have a USB connector and necessary firmware. Such UDCPs will enable consumers to view all linear cable channels, including both switched and non-switched linear channels. *He said the new adapter will be available to consumers in the first half of 2008."*

So if anyone set false expectations in this case, it is the cable industry (and in any case, it looks like they will be pretty close to their first half of '08 target, so maybe the expectations are not false at all).

http://www.ncta.com/ReleaseType/MediaRelease/4450.aspx


----------



## AbMagFab

classicsat said:


> They couldn't.
> Here is why:
> 
> The SDV adapter itself is not a simple 2-way/back communications device, but half a cable box itself, and as such has to match what the existing cable network is.
> 
> Cable systems use different combinations of hardware and software platforms. Although the various permutations are small, they are too many to reasonably build into one piece of hardware today.
> 
> The promise was this spring, or at least this summer/fall.
> The only time reasonable solution is to make the platform specific half cable box Tuning Adapter. To make a universal Tuning Adapter might extend that another year or more.
> Now, if so inclined, they could make a 2nd Gen TA that is universal, but I doubt they will.


All of that applies to cable modems as well. And we have a standard. And the SDV dongle is far far simpler than a cable modem (I strongly disagree wih your first point). All the SDV dongle does is communicate what channel is where. We already have CC's that can tune to the channels, it's just the "random" mapping that's a problem.

All of your stuff above is irrelevent. It's a real-time data issue only (and/or request/response issue). Trivial to standardize, if they thought that was important.


----------



## lvthunder

In my view cablecards don't meet what the FCC wanted and the cable indusry should be held to account. They should of had all this figured out before they came out with cablecards. It's as simple as that. I mean how many years ago did Directv come out with an access card?


----------



## HiDefGator

lvthunder said:


> In my view cablecards don't meet what the FCC wanted and the cable indusry should be held to account. They should of had all this figured out before they came out with cablecards. It's as simple as that. I mean how many years ago did Directv come out with an access card?


Yeah. It's the cable industries fault for not fully embracing something they didn't want to do in the first place. Big surprise there.


----------



## acvthree

lvthunder said:


> In my view cablecards don't meet what the FCC wanted and the cable indusry should be held to account. They should of had all this figured out before they came out with cablecards. It's as simple as that. I mean how many years ago did Directv come out with an access card?


I don't see any evidence that the FCC wanted cable cards.

The FCC allowed the cable industry to delay cable card introduction for almost 10 year. The FCC followed the letter of the law as passed by congress and no more. They allowed other technologies that effectively negate cable card to be introduced.

I would have agreed with the statement that cable cards, as implemented, did not meet the original intent of Congress, but that is just my opionion.

It would have been much more effective, I believe, if Congress had stated the intent in the law.

Al


----------



## ah30k

ASW said:


> ... but CableLabs issued a press release (saying it was working on the tuning resolver along with TiVo, Motorola, Scientific-Atlanta, BigBand Networks and C-COR) in November that set expectations when its president, Richard Green, stated...


 But CableLabs is not building anything so how can they state anything about delivery dates let alone imply any promises?


----------



## MichaelK

classicsat said:


> They couldn't.
> Here is why:
> 
> The SDV adapter itself is not a simple 2-way/back communications device, but half a cable box itself, and as such has to match what the existing cable network is.
> 
> Cable systems use different combinations of hardware and software platforms. Although the various permutations are small, they are too many to reasonably build into one piece of hardware today.
> ..., they could make a 2nd Gen TA that is universal, but I doubt they will.


completely true.

But...

the problem is cable ALLOWED that to occur in the first place.

they could have told the 3 SDV equipment providers to work together to come up with a single standard. In fact that would have made life better for the cable company's of the world as they wouldn't then have been locked into proprietary SDV systems like they have gotten stuck with the proprietary CA systems for the past umpteen years. Now if they buy the company X solution they are married to company X untill OCAP becomes the norm.

There's a variety of reasons why such things occur. Many legit. Sometimes competing standards just need to get deployed and see where the chips fall (blue ray vs HD DVD anyone..., CDMA vs GSM.... etc) But in the face of cable I think there is an added bit that they are flat out stupid and stuborn and aren't capable of looking at the big picture. JMHO of course...


----------



## MichaelK

acvthree said:


> I don't see any evidence that the FCC wanted cable cards.
> 
> The FCC allowed the cable industry to delay cable card introduction for almost 10 year. The FCC followed the letter of the law as passed by congress and no more. They allowed other technologies that effectively negate cable card to be introduced.
> 
> I would have agreed with the statement that cable cards, as implemented, did not meet the original intent of Congress, but that is just my opionion.
> 
> It would have been much more effective, I believe, if Congress had stated the intent in the law.
> 
> Al


the intent pretty clear in my opinion. THe law seems obvious to me.

Congress wants 3rd party devices to be readily availible in retail outlets.

The FCC was instructed to make that happen.

The FCC has failed.

The reason why the FCC failed is subject to speculation.

The funny thing is that there are things the FCC or it's individual commisioners have said that sure sound like they did intent to accomplish what congress told them to do. In fact there's some comments from them that they expected a robust and highly competitive market for such 3rd party devices years and years ago. Apparently they got snowed or didn't understand the issue very well...

Maybe OCAP/true2way makes it a reality.

Time will tell...


----------



## MichaelK

ah30k said:


> But CableLabs is not building anything so how can they state anything about delivery dates let alone imply any promises?


because as a cable owned and operated entity they are something of a defacto mouthpiece.

from their website


> CableLabs' members are exclusively cable system operators.


Those members pay the dues that employ the cablelabs people.

So in my head both the NCTA and cablelabs speak on behalf of the boogeyman called "cable". (And NOTICE both are involved in the press release linked above)

I dont know that anyone "promised" anything. But an employee of the major cable company's (that's the folks that pay for cablelabs employees) creating a press release can reasonably be construed to speak for cable in my mind. So yes I think it's implied when cablelabs speaks that they are speaking for the big 5 cable companies at least. Now how can the big 5 cable company's speak on behalf of moto and sa and the SDV providers? Because they are major customers and they are intricately connected.

If Continental airlines announces that they are having 10 Boeing jets delivered in 2009- would it not be reasonable to expect that Boeing will be building those 10 jets in that timeframe? One step farther If continental vacations (a travel agent subsidiary of continental) said that they will have tickets for vacation destination on new routes to be served by those 10 new planes in 2009 would you not be able to assume that Boeing is making the delivery when continental says?

I guess there's room for disagreement and we can all get lawyer like but I don't think people are insane or unreasonable to infer that cablelabs speaks on behalf of the large cable company's. Maybe they are wrong- but cable should understand that when cablelabs or the NCTA speaks people assume that they are speaking on behalf of cable (and I personally think they do understand that and are carefull to parse their words accordingly)


----------



## acvthree

MichaelK said:


> the intent pretty clear in my opinion. THe law seems obvious to me.
> 
> Congress wants 3rd party devices to be readily availible in retail outlets.
> 
> The FCC was instructed to make that happen.
> 
> The FCC has failed.
> 
> The reason why the FCC failed is subject to speculation.
> 
> The funny thing is that there are things the FCC or it's individual commisioners have said that sure sound like they did intent to accomplish what congress told them to do. In fact there's some comments from them that they expected a robust and highly competitive market for such 3rd party devices years and years ago. Apparently they got snowed or didn't understand the issue very well...
> 
> Maybe OCAP/true2way makes it a reality.
> 
> Time will tell...


I've read some of those statements as well. Their actions didn't seem to reflect their statements. How long did they allow the cable industry to take to do this? That alone is a strong statement.

Al


----------



## classicsat

MichaelK said:


> completely true.
> 
> But...
> 
> the problem is cable ALLOWED that to occur in the first place.


Yes, that is the bigger picture. We can argue that until we are blue or red in the face, but the fact remains that the cable systems are today proprietary systems, and as such requires a proprietary TA.



> they could have told the 3 SDV equipment providers to work together to come up with a single standard.


Don't forget about the hardware platform.


----------



## ASW

MichaelK said:


> because as a cable owned and operated entity they are something of a defacto mouthpiece.
> 
> from their website
> 
> Those members pay the dues that employ the cablelabs people.
> 
> So in my head both the NCTA and cablelabs speak on behalf of the boogeyman called "cable". (And NOTICE both are involved in the press release linked above)
> 
> I dont know that anyone "promised" anything. But an employee of the major cable company's (that's the folks that pay for cablelabs employees) creating a press release can reasonably be construed to speak for cable in my mind. So yes I think its implied when cablelabs speaks that they are speaking for the big 5 cable companies at least. Now how can the big 5 cable companys speak on behalf of moto and sa and the SDV providers? Because they are major customers and they are intricately connected.
> 
> If Continental airlines announces that they are having 10 Boeing jets delivered in 2009- would it not be reasonable to expect that Boeing will be building those 10 jets in that timeframe? One step farther If continental vacations (a travel agent subsidiary of continental) said that they will have tickets for vacation destination on new routes to be served by those 10 new planes in 2009 would you not be able to assume that Boeing is making the delivery when continental says?
> 
> I guess there's room for disagreement and we can all get lawyer like but I dont think people are insane or unreasonable to infer that cablelabs speaks on behalf of the large cable company's. Maybe they are wrong- but cable should understand that when cablelabs or the NCTA speaks people assume that they are speaking on behalf of cable (and I personally think they do understand that and are carefull to parse their words accordingly)


And further to the point, that press release almost certainly was not issued without comment by the large cable operators and the companies (like motorola, SA, etc.) that were mentioned. Obviously issuing a press release that states a target delivery date is not a "promise" that gives anyone rights, but it was certainly designed to set expecations about when the tuning adapter/resolver would be available.


----------



## CharlesH

AbMagFab said:


> And the SDV dongle is far far simpler than a cable modem (I strongly disagree wih your first point). All the SDV dongle does is communicate what channel is where.


According to the tuning resolver specification, it also provides a channel map to the host, which overrides the one the cablecards get. The device has to speak the SDV protocol that the particular provider uses in order to get the channel to convey to the host, including dealing with the "lifetime" of the dynamic channel assignment. Sure looks like a stripped-down set-top box to me.


----------



## Jimbo713

Bring it on! The topic - when?


----------



## Scopeman

ASW said:


> And further to the point, that press release almost certainly was not issued without comment by the large cable operators and the companies (like motorola, SA, etc.) that were mentioned. Obviously issuing a press release that states a target delivery date is not a "promise" that gives anyone rights, but it was certainly designed to set expectations about when the tuning adapter/resolver would be available.


I've been contacted by someone at one of the test labs at Time Warner (not the local labs, the "HQ" labs, apparently) about testing one of these "tuner resolvers." Time frame I was given for the start of *my* testing of the resolver was late June to mid July. She stated that this was a new date range she had just been given - changed from the prior range of mid to late June.

If hardware materializes, or more data is forthcoming, I'll post the details.


----------



## Houtech

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/05/18/hands-on-with-the-motorola-tuning-adapter-mtr700/


----------



## Rolow

Does anyone know if Scientific Atlanta/ Cisco showed the STA-1520 at the show?


----------



## classicsat

According to another post, yes, it was there, but not set up and demoed like the Motorola unit was.


----------



## morac

Houtech said:


> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/05/18/hands-on-with-the-motorola-tuning-adapter-mtr700/


Looks pretty good. I still would prefer the not have to power another device (gonna need another UPS since I'm out of slots).

Also I'm not sure if this is because it's a demo, but all the SDV channels are called "SWITCHED". I'm assuming that if they were real channels, they'd have the channel name instead?

I'm hoping someone will get some video of it in action.


----------



## ah30k

Had the Mot demo been a presentation by the employees you could have seen the SDV status screens as the TiVo changed channels. The SDV demo is pretty amazing if you play the role of a cable company seeking additional bankdwidth. You can watch channels get assigned to various QAMs dynamically turning on and off as needed. The goal is to have the TiVo interface be totally transparent except for additional diagnostic screens.


----------



## GoHokies!

morac said:


> Also I'm not sure if this is because it's a demo, but all the SDV channels are called "SWITCHED". I'm assuming that if they were real channels, they'd have the channel name instead?
> 
> I'm hoping someone will get some video of it in action.


That's what it sounds like:


> For the most part, there's no change from a user's perspective, so much so that for the demo the channels were relabeled so we could tell which were SDV, and which weren't


Sounds like this thing is completely transparent to the user. Awesome!

It isn't quite there yet, but I'm getting the "I told you so" ready for all you naysayers that said they were never going to buy a Tivo because SDV was going to be the death of Tivo.


----------



## AbMagFab

classicsat said:


> Yes, that is the bigger picture. We can argue that until we are blue or red in the face, but the fact remains that the cable systems are today proprietary systems, and as such requires a proprietary TA.
> 
> Don't forget about the hardware platform.


And yet cable cards work just fine, and there are only two models. Amazing.

(I'm not sure why you continue to make the point that just because they are all independent companies with different infrastructures, that coming up with a generic tuning resolver, or perhaps one Moto and one SA tuning resolver, is really that big a deal. It's all pretty much the same.)


----------



## AbMagFab

Houtech said:


> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/05/18/hands-on-with-the-motorola-tuning-adapter-mtr700/


Nice! I hope the channel names aren't what the CableCo's are sending down, and this is just a demo artifact. But since they aren't all "SWITCH", it's a little disconcerting...

And the menuing on the Moto TA, but controlled through the Tivo, seems like we could have VOD through the Tivo as well? If I recall, the menuing on the VOD is similar? But I guess that would require a VOD-Adapter...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

AbMagFab said:


> And yet cable cards work just fine, and there are only two models. Amazing.
> 
> (I'm not sure why you continue to make the point that just because they are all independent companies with different infrastructures, that coming up with a generic tuning resolver, or perhaps one Moto and one SA tuning resolver, is really that big a deal. It's all pretty much the same.)


the firmware inside the cable card is not just two versions- they very likely have some differences to account for the specific cable plant they are running on.

Plus it took a while for cable cards to come around - do you really want to wait another year or two for an SDV adapter that meets some common standard ?


----------



## GBL

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080519/aqm025.html


> Press Release	Source: TiVo Inc.
> 
> NCTA and TiVo Announce Progress on Switched Digital Adapter for TiVo DVRs
> Monday May 19, 8:00 am ET
> SDV solutions from TiVo, Motorola and Cisco currently undergoing CableLabs(R) testing
> Cisco and Motorola tuning adapters on display at the 2008 Cable Show
> TiVo HD DVRs with tuning adapter support on display at the CableNET and Motorola booths at the 2008 Cable Show
> 
> NEW ORLEANS, May 19 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The National Cable & Telecommunications Association (NCTA) and TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO - News), today announced that after a series of successful informal interoperability tests TiVo and several manufacturers of switched digital external tuning adapters have submitted products for formal testing at CableLabs. The tuning adapter will enable TiVo Series3(TM), TiVo HD DVRs, and certain other one-way digital cable ready consumer electronic devices that utilize CableCARDs(TM) to access digital cable channels delivered using switched digital technology.
> 
> "The ability to turn concept into reality this quickly is a testament to how closely cable operators, CableLabs, TiVo and other cable vendors have worked over the last several months to develop this first-of-its-kind marketplace solution," said Kyle McSlarrow, NCTA President & CEO. "We are extremely grateful to TiVo for the critical role it has played throughout and are confident that customers will benefit from this solution enabling full access to switched digital channels."
> 
> Motorola and Cisco have both developed external tuning adapters and are seeking qualification by CableLabs® before being delivered to cable operators for deployment. The tuning adapters are expected to be offered in the coming months by cable operators including Comcast, Time Warner, Cox, and Cablevision in areas where switched digital technology is being deployed. The cable operators and TiVo plan to work cooperatively to alert TiVo subscribers about the availability or need of the new external adapter and to ensure that installation of the adapter and CableCARDs will be easy and seamless for the consumer.
> 
> TiVo has modified its software for its TiVo Series3 and TiVo HD DVRs to communicate with the external Tuning Adapter. TiVo announced that the modified software has been submitted to CableLabs for verification testing. Upon verification, the software upgrade will be made available to TiVo subscribers via a regularly scheduled update.
> 
> Switched digital technology enables cable operators to transmit individual channels to customers on an as-needed basis rather than broadcasting all channels to all subscribers all the time. Switched digital technology provides more flexibility for cable operators to utilize network capacity to deliver interactive digital services, high-definition (HD) channels, broadband Internet and digital phone service. The Tuning Adapter is intended to work on any Unidirectional Digital Cable Ready Product (UDCP) that has a USB connector and necessary firmware.
> 
> "We are pleased with the focus and cooperation that CableLabs and the cable industry has exhibited from the outset and are eager to see this solution through to fruition so that customers can enjoy access to all switched digital cable channels," said TiVo CEO & President Tom Rogers. "This undertaking is a significant step forward in our ongoing relationship with the cable industry to develop technology and provide solutions that improve the television experience of cable subscribers."
> 
> "Cisco continues to develop innovative video technology that allows cable operators to provide a broad range of video entertainment options, including high definition and niche content," said Michael Harney, senior vice president, Cisco, Service Provider Video Technology Group. "As part of our portfolio of advanced technology, Cisco will have on display the STA1520 Switched Tuning Adapter, which was developed in conjunction with CableLabs, our cable operator customers and TiVo."
> 
> "Motorola is committed to accelerating the delivery of personalized media experiences," commented John Burke, senior vice president and general manager for Motorola's Digital Video Solutions group. "Working collaboratively, we have developed a solution that extends the reach of innovative interactive services to TiVo users and we are pleased to be able to showcase this solution at the Cable Show."
> 
> TiVo HD DVRs attached to Motorola external adapters are currently on display in both the CableNET and Motorola booths at the 2008 Cable Show in New Orleans. The 2008 Cable Show, which runs May 18 - 20, is the largest cable and telecommunications exhibition in the United States.


----------



## Breadfan

Wow, this is great news. According to the EngadgetHD article the tuning adapter should be available to cable companies in July!
Also, looks like TiVo already has the new firmware working. I just hope the cable companies can be expeditious in rolling these things out to us.


----------



## jeffshome

From the Engadget HD photos the cable connects into the Tuning Adapter with a 2nd cable running back to the TiVo. Another cable (antenna) is connected directly into the TiVo.

Will a single Tuning Adapter allow simultaneous viewing of SDV on both TiVo tuners or will we need TWO Tuning Adapters for simultaneous viewing of two SDV programs at once? Or will we be limited to one SDV channel and one non-SDV channel at the same time?


----------



## cypherstream

Here's a shot of the Cisco tuning adapter for those in Scientific Altanta/Cisco SDV markets:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/05/19/hands-on-with-the-cisco-tuning-adapter-sta1520/

On top is the Cisco DTA50, small clearQAM $35 digital > analog converter.


----------



## jstevenson

jeffshome said:


> From the Engadget HD photos the cable connects into the Tuning Adapter with a 2nd cable running back to the TiVo. Another cable (antenna) is connected directly into the TiVo.
> 
> Will a single Tuning Adapter allow simultaneous viewing of SDV on both TiVo tuners or will we need TWO Tuning Adapters for simultaneous viewing of two SDV programs at once? Or will we be limited to one SDV channel and one non-SDV channel at the same time?


Theoretically you should only need one, you only need one cable line for your Tivo Box.

The way it should work is that the Tivo tells what two channels it needs via USB. The Resolver sends that back over the cable line, the node then signals those channels, and the Tivo gets the channels over the cable line to the Tivo box.

Essentially, the Tivo sends messages to the adapter via USB, but receives the video signal one way over coax. The adapter communicates with the cable node over the coax both ways.


----------



## morac

jstevenson said:


> Theoretically you should only need one, you only need one cable line for your Tivo Box.


Assuming all parties follow the spec (a valid assumption), only one adapter will be required per host.

The spec allows the host to tell the tuning adapter how many tuners the host has and the adapter assigns a different local transport stream id (ltsid) to each tuner. The tuning request uses the ltsid so the host can request different a channel for each tuner. See section 8.6.2.

On an unrelated note, another interesting thing in that section of the spec is that the host can tell the adapter whether or not it supports MPEG-4 so if at some point in the future the cable provider starts using MPEG-4 SDV channels and the TiVo software is updated to support MPEG-4 decoding (S3/HD have hardware support), then simply setting a bit in the initialization message to the tuning adapter will allow the TiVo to support MPEG-4 SDV channels.


----------



## djwilso

GBL said:


> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080519/aqm025.html


Thanks for posting this! It's like sweet music to my ears.

SDV has been worrying me for more than a year now as it has the potential to render my Series3 into a brick, and this article and others have put my fears to rest.

I hope that all of the people who are currently being affected negatively by SDV will have this solution forthcoming to them in the not-too-distant future.

Dennis


----------



## btwyx

morac said:


> On an unrelated note, another interesting thing in that section of the spec is that the host can tell the adapter whether or not it supports MPEG-4 so if at some point in the future the cable provider starts using MPEG-4 SDV channels and the TiVo software is updated to support MPEG-4 decoding (S3/HD have hardware support), then simply setting a bit in the initialization message to the tuning adapter will allow the TiVo to support MPEG-4 SDV channels.


That's interesting.


----------



## noname_com

Here is the email I rec'd from tivo yesterday

Dear Valued Customer,

Your friends at TiVo want to inform you about some changes in digital cable that could affect your TV viewing experience. Some cable operators are in the process of introducing a technology called Switched Digital Video (SDV). You may be made aware of this technology in the context of your provider informing you about the migration of certain lesser viewed existing channels or the introduction of new channels using SDV.

Unfortunately, today's CableCARD devices including the TiVo HD and Series3 DVRs do not currently support SDV, but the good news is that TiVo is working with cable operators to develop the Tuning Adapter, a solution that is currently being tested by your cable provider and will be available in the near term.

The Tuning Adapter will enable you to access the full spectrum of HD channels that the cable provider offers and should be made available by your local cable provider later this year. Although the majority of cable customers currently are not affected by switched digital services, we will continue to work with the cable industry to try to minimize the impact to subscribers that are inconvenienced.

We will keep you posted on developments as they occur and we greatly appreciate your patience during this transition.

Sincerely,
The TiVo Product Development Team

PS. For further information please visit www.tivo.com/switched.


----------



## kloarizona

Here are the last four sentences in a letter I received yesterday from Cox (Arizona/Phoenix) announcing SDV starting on July 1, 2008:

"Availability of the Tuning Adapter is expected later this year. At that time additional information will be sent to you. The Tuning Adapter will be provided by Cox at no charge. In the interim, continued access to channels delivered via SDV is available with a Cox digital set top receiver."

First confirmation I've seen that at least one company will NOT charge for the adapter.

By the way, the channels listed as going to SDV are SD channels, mostly in the 100 (entertainment and sports tier), 400 (Spanish) and 800 (public safety) channel ranges. (There are a few HD channels that are already SDV).


----------



## jhimmel

kloarizona said:


> Here are the last four sentences in a letter I received yesterday from Cox (Arizona/Phoenix) announcing SDV starting on July 1, 2008:
> 
> "Availability of the Tuning Adapter is expected later this year. At that time additional information will be sent to you. The Tuning Adapter will be provided by Cox at no charge. In the interim, continued access to channels delivered via SDV is available with a Cox digital set top receiver."
> 
> First confirmation I've seen that at least one company will NOT charge for the adapter.


If they actually do not charge, I would say there are some serious apologies due around here. Some posters were literally laughed at by some members here for suggesting that it MAY be offered at little or no cost to the subscriber.

jtown???

Well... Guess we will see how this plays out soon enough...


----------



## jebbbz

I got the same letter and would note that as an interim solution Cox is offering an HD STB for six months at the same fee, $2.00/month, that they charge for a cablecard (the normal monthly fee for such an STB is $12.00). Of course, Cox is also rolling out On Demand programming so the six month offer may also be intended to hook people on VoD but that is OK with me. Let us hope there is no "installation" fee for the TA as it sgould be merely plug and play as it contains no security hardware.

In all, Cox here in Phoenix seems to be embracing TiVo.


----------



## Rolow

Where are you guys getting cox phoenix SDV information? Is there a web site or something? Or are you getting it all directly from cox? What channels are currently SDV?


----------



## jkovach

kloarizona said:


> (There are a few HD channels that are already SDV).


Oh? What channels would those be?


----------



## jebbbz

Rolow said:


> Where are you guys getting cox phoenix SDV information? Is there a web site or something? Or are you getting it all directly from cox? What channels are currently SDV?


Cox has sent out a couple of letters, one about On Demand and the other about SDV. I couldn't find any info on the website and was too lazy to type out the SDV channels by hand. Fortunately, jkovach (Jeff), over in another forum did the work for us. SDV in Phoenix starting July 1:

109 Cox Real Estate 2
110 Daystar
112 INSP
113 EWTN
114 BYU-TV
125 C-SPAN 2
126 C-SPAN 3
133 DIY
144 Fox Reality Channel
155 BET Jazz
156 Great American Country
157 Fuse
158 G4
159 Logo
163 Fit TV
170 Fox College Sports Atlantic
172 Fox College Sports Pacific
173 Fuel
405 TV Chile
410 De Pelicula
411 De Pelicula Clasico
412 CineLatino
413 VeneMovies
417 History en Espanol
418 Discovery en Espanol
422 Discovery Familia
423 TOON Disney en Espanol
424 Boomerang en Espanol
425 Sorpresa
430 MTV Tres
432 Bandamax
433 VideoRola
434 mun2
438 ESPN Deportes
439 Fox Sports en Espanol
440 GoITV
444 CNN en Espanol
445 Canal Sur
449 EWTN Espanol
500 iNDEMAND Previews
601-606 ESPN Game Plan / ESPN Full Court
650 NBA League Pass Preview
651-659 NBA League Pass / MLS Direct Kick
671-684 MLB Extra Innings / NHL Center Ice
840 Public Safety
850 Public Safety
851 Public Safety
853 Public Safety
854 Public Safety
856 Public Safety
857 Public Safety

Nothing important for me so the TA is not yet a priority for me.

(If you read this, thanks, Jeff.)


----------



## raaikin

wildjoe said:


> It still saves me a ton of money getting my HD via OTA. The picture is better too. Oh, and no cable card hassle.


Does a standard pair of "rabbit ears" work? or is there a special Antenna for getting the HD channels? (stuff with decimals or dashes in the channel number)


----------



## atmuscarella

> Originally Posted by *raaikin*
> Does a standard pair of "rabbit ears" work? or is there a special Antenna for getting the HD channels? (stuff with decimals or dashes in the channel number)


No special Antenna for HD/digital OTA - uses the same antennas as analog OTA - if rabbit ears will work or not simple depends on where you live. I need a large roof antenna where I live.

Most digital channels are currently broadcasting on UHF so some people will try to sell you a UHF only antenna and claim it is a special "HD" Antenna - I recommend you get a combo VHF/UHF one instead once the analog channels go dark more broadcasters will be using VHF for digital broadcast.

Good Luck,


----------



## kloarizona

jkovach said:


> Oh? What channels would those be?


I stand corrected, your question led me to recheck several HD Channels I had not been receiving (TBS and FSNAZ, in particular) and it was a settings problem on my Series 3 rather than SDV. So all the channels moving to SDV on July 1 appear SD and it looks like we will not lose any HD for the moment. Must say, that makes the timing of adapter availability considerably less important...

Kevin Olson


----------



## JWThiers

jebbbz said:


> Cox has sent out a couple of letters, one about On Demand and the other about SDV. I couldn't find any info on the website and was too lazy to type out the SDV channels by hand. Fortunately, jkovach (Jeff), over in another forum did the work for us. SDV in Phoenix starting July 1:
> 
> <deleted some>
> 
> 840 Public Safety
> 850 Public Safety
> 851 Public Safety
> 853 Public Safety
> 854 Public Safety
> 856 Public Safety
> 857 Public Safety
> 
> Nothing important for me so the TA is not yet a priority for me.
> 
> (If you read this, thanks, Jeff.)


Just kind of interesting that they would put public safety on an SDV channel. One would think that kind of thing (Public Safety, Goverenment access, Local analog Chanels, etc) is put someplace that EVERYONE can get (including those that just use the analog cable channels that every cable ready set can get. NOT on something that requires a special box. Of course it would depend on what one call Public Safety.


----------



## cableguy763

The public safety channels probably are still available on analog. Cablecards will be pointed to the analog source. Boxes will just get the digital simulcast version via sdv.


----------



## dougdingle

So once this two-way communication actually gets implemented, what sort of RF amplifier will be needed to support it? 

I currently have a decent Weingard "cable signal level" amp to feed the four sets I have, but it most certainly does not allow anything to flow upstream (it's around 10 years old).


----------



## ZeoTiVo

so no SDV adapter info lately?


----------



## vman41

JWThiers said:


> Just kind of interesting that they would put public safety on an SDV channel. One would think that kind of thing (Public Safety, Goverenment access, Local analog Chanels, etc) is put someplace that EVERYONE can get (including those that just use the analog cable channels that every cable ready set can get. NOT on something that requires a special box. Of course it would depend on what one call Public Safety.


The counter argument is that every little jurisdiction within a cable network now gets it's own government channel where before they couldn't spare the the bandwidth.


----------



## ah30k

vman41 said:


> The counter argument is that every little jurisdiction within a cable network now gets it's own government channel where before they couldn't spare the the bandwidth.


PEGs can get inserted very close to the edge nodes so there is no problem there. It is not like the whole Comcast footprint must share the same PEGs. I'm more inclined to agree with the poster that said the analog versions are still available so might as well make the digital versions SDV.


----------



## AbMagFab

ah30k said:


> PEGs can get inserted very close to the edge nodes so there is no problem there. It is not like the whole Comcast footprint must share the same PEGs. I'm more inclined to agree with the poster that said the analog versions are still available to might as well make the digital versions SDV.


They're going all digital pretty soon, so it doesn't really matter about analog.


----------



## cableguy763

AbMagFab said:


> They're going all digital pretty soon, so it doesn't really matter about analog.


If you count 2012 as pretty soon, that is true. Most cable co's have local carriage agreements that require them to carry local pegs in analog in the basic tier. If they have a fully digital simulcast lineup, putting the pegs in switched is idea since those are very rarely watched.


----------



## JimboG

Very rarely watched? Why the PEGs are the reason I pay my cable bill (and local franchise fee)!


----------



## cableguy763

JimboG said:


> Very rarely watched? Why the PEGs are the reason I pay my cable bill (and local franchise fee)!


So you are that ONE guy!!!


----------



## ah30k

Not just him, they have the local PEG on in the lobby of our township building and the library. That makes three!


----------



## lrhorer

jhimmel said:


> If they actually do not charge, I would say there are some serious apologies due around here.


'Not in my estimation. First of all, Cox represents much less than half of the subscribers in the U.S. Secondly, this may not be a nationwide policy for Cox. It may, but it also may not.



jhimmel said:


> Some posters were literally laughed at by some members here for suggesting that it MAY be offered at little or no cost to the subscriber.


I don't think anyone was laughed at for the suggestion some providers might decide not to charge extra for the adapter. I find it unlikely all of them will offer it free, unless forced to by the FCC



jhimmel said:


> Well... Guess we will see how this plays out soon enough...


'Not soon enough by far for some. I certainly won't be shocked if I don't have one in my hands before the new year, nor would I be surprised to find more than half of all cable subs with S3 class machines are still waiting in January.

I would be ecstatic to be surprised on both counts.


----------



## lrhorer

cableguy763 said:


> If you count 2012 as pretty soon, that is true. Most cable co's have local carriage agreements that require them to carry local pegs in analog in the basic tier. If they have a fully digital simulcast lineup, putting the pegs in switched is idea since those are very rarely watched.


True, but the basic tier doesn't represent all that much bandwidth or that many channels in many cities. In some it's only 12 channels, or in others only 21. Converting the mid-band and super-band, or even just the super-band to all digital will increase the number of channels by a huge amount.


----------



## lrhorer

dougdingle said:


> So once this two-way communication actually gets implemented, what sort of RF amplifier will be needed to support it?


One which allows two-way communications. They are common, but not universal. Some have upstream amps as well as downstream, but most are passive upstream.



dougdingle said:


> I currently have a decent Weingard "cable signal level" amp to feed the four sets I have


Ordinarily you should not need an amp for 4 sets. Unless your subscriber drop is rather long or at least one of your wall drops are quite long the engineering of the CATV plant should allow for decent levels on 4 sets with no amplification. Have someone check the RF level at the subscriber tap and calculate the minimum level behind your sets. If the output of the subscriber tap is low, the CATV company must fix it. Otherwise, unless there is considerably more than 200 feet of RG-6 coax between the subscriber tap and the furthest TV, you should not need an amp if all you have is a 4-way splitter under your eave or in your attic. Make sure the splitter is of high quality and the coax is at least RG-6 with high quality connectors that have been properly installed. Eliminate any extra coax jumpers or unnecessary splitters. Avoid splices.



dougdingle said:


> but it most certainly does not allow anything to flow upstream (it's around 10 years old).


Two way house amplifiers have been available for over 30 years, and have been quite common for over 20. If actually required (which is fairly rare), some CATV companies will provide a house amp for a minimal charge or even free. They provided the one in my house free (the longest RG-6 run for my house is over 300 feet, and I have 10 outlets plus broadband).


----------



## lrhorer

raaikin said:


> Does a standard pair of "rabbit ears" work? or is there a special Antenna for getting the HD channels? (stuff with decimals or dashes in the channel number)


HD and digital broadcasts (which are not the same thing) do not require any special sort of antenna in and of themselves. That said, some of the local broadcasters are changing to a different antenna for their digital and / or HD broadcasts, and some are going with a lower power transmitter. Depending on your location relative to the new tower, you may need to re-orient your antenna for best results. The new digital frequency is also different. In some cases, the old viewer antenna may not be sufficient, but this is a geographical and transmit power issue more than an antenna type issue.


----------



## lrhorer

kloarizona said:


> So all the channels moving to SDV on July 1 appear SD and it looks like we will not lose any HD for the moment. Must say, that makes the timing of adapter availability considerably less important...


It varies by the CATV provider. Here in San Antonio TWC has been adding channels at a mad pace for nearly a year. All the new channels are SDV, including both HD and SD offerings, and of course lots of on-demand stuff. All the digital (including all HD) offerings available previous to adding A&E HD last year are linear. All channels added when A&E HD was added and subsequent to then are SDV.


----------



## ah30k

lrhorer said:


> True, but the basic tier doesn't represent all that much bandwidth or that many channels in many cities.


Uh, the Q&A conversation that you replied to was specifically about PEGs and the basic tier. You are veering off course from the intended topic of the Q&A stream which was: 
PEGs going SDV does that seem wrong, 
no since the analog versions are still available, 
but they are going all digital soon, 
no they are not for the PEGs/basic tier​.


----------



## routerman

lrhorer said:


> True, but the basic tier doesn't represent all that much bandwidth or that many channels in many cities. In some it's only 12 channels, or in others only 21. Converting the mid-band and super-band, or even just the super-band to all digital will increase the number of channels by a huge amount.


Austin has a 21 channel basic service with 9 being public access programs. I would like to be able to put 18 HD channels in the place of these very-seldom watched channels.

I agree that converting these other channels (midband and superband) to digital would be great, but I bet there would be more customer outrage if they moved higher viewed channels to digital only. Moving public access channels might be a good test of the waters.


----------



## Dunnie

Well ... it finally happened in Bergen County. Cablevision has switched all the VOOM stuff to SDV. No more redundant monster channel or kung foo channel. Any word on the SDV adapter ... no way am I switching from TIVO Series 3 for this.


----------



## cableguy763

Dunnie said:


> Well ... it finally happened in Bergen County. Cablevision has switched all the VOOM stuff to SDV. No more redundant monster channel or kung foo channel. Any word on the SDV adapter ... no way am I switching from TIVO Series 3 for this.


Use the lessons from the kung foo channel and have patience, young one. The mythical tuning resolver will be here soon (July, with every finger and toe crossed) .


----------



## ASW

In response to a question about tuning adapter availability, I received the following email from Cablevision:

"TiVo is working closely with the cable industry to develop a device, expected to be available in 2008, to enable our TiVo Series 3 HD DVR and TiVo HD DVR customers access to switched-video programming. The Tuning Adapter is intended to work with any Unidirectional Digital Cable Ready Product (UDCP) that has a USB connector and necessary Firmware. Cablevision will update customers on the availability of this device in the coming months.

"If you should have any other questions please visit us at www.optimum.com.

"Thank you for choosing Cablevision.'


----------



## cramer

AbMagFab said:


> tru2way (at least my understanding of it) is a horrible solution. Basically saying "go ahead an manufacture a box, and we'll download whatever UI/system we want on it"?


Exactly! To put it in other terms, it's like your computer running whatever OS and apps your ISP sends it. Consumer choice is gone; who makes your computer is irrelevant.



classicsat said:


> The SDV adapter itself is not a simple 2-way/back communications device, ...


Actually, it's almost exactly the same as a cable modem -- which is exactly why it's been so quickly prototyped. It *is* a cable modem -- a DOCSIS Set-top Gateway -- running an SDV client app plus the "tuning resolver" protocol bridge/translator/whatever-you-wanna-call-it. A stock cable modem would need an appropriate SDV client and it's USB CAM replaced with the tuning resolver interface. With the well noted exception of NOT HAVING AN RF TRANSMITTER, the tivo can do all of this on it's own.



lvthunder said:


> In my view cablecards don't meet what the FCC wanted and the cable indusry should be held to account.


Sadly, the cableCARD does exactly what it's supposed to do. SDV, however, is a loophole the cable companies are now driving truck loads of elephants through. The *problem* is the huge lack of standards and (still) no certification track for bidirectional devices -- OCAP ("tru2way") is the only path for a device with a transmitter in it. If cable companies really didn't want all this "one way mess", then they (read: Cable Labs) should have created certification standards for bidirectional devices over a decade ago. Which brings us to the other part... despite a growing number of detailed "standard" specifications, 90% of cable networks still use closed, undocumented, proprietary technologies. There are no public, open standards that use an upstream channel, so it follows that there's no need for a bidirectional certification.

It needs repeating that the cable industry doesn't want any of this. Why do you think it took a mandate from congress to create cableCARDs ("a seperable security system")? And a further mandate from the FCC to make them actually use the damned things? They'd be perfectly happy rattling off "new" standards every few years to look like they're playing along, except the FCC finally grew a pair and said no to moving the integration ban again. But by then the SDV loophole was open for business -- f*** you, we'll make you use our (not EVER certified) hardware anyway.

If you really want something to crusade over... cable operators aren't required to use Cable Labs certified equipment themselves. They're free to use whatever crap they want -- as long as it has a cableCARD in it, now. This is how they get away with having bidirectional devices noone else on Earth can build, with features noone else can support.


----------



## dubluv

brettatk said:


> So let's think about this now. You are waiting for the Cable Companies to come up with a solution that will enable you to keep using Tivo's DVR instead of the their own. Am I the only one that thinks this isnt likely to happen unless they are forced by the FCC?


even though its open to speculation, cable co's ARE interested in keeping tivo users as customers, and providing an adapter insures the continued financial stream from us. let's say they delay or deny or want a big chunk of money for the adapter, we then threaten we'll switch to fios or sat or whatever. if we had no other options, we'd be screwed. try calling your cable co and tell them how pissed you're gonna be that you're losing channels to sdv, and if they don't do something, you're gonna end your sub. (i don't work for fios, but i know for a fact that you'll be offered something to stay a customer, but you may have to cancel your account for a day to start the action)


----------



## MichaelK

dubluv said:


> even though its open to speculation, cable co's ARE interested in keeping tivo users as customers, and providing an adapter insures the continued financial stream from us. let's say they delay or deny or want a big chunk of money for the adapter, we then threaten we'll switch to fios or sat or whatever. if we had no other options, we'd be screwed. try calling your cable co and tell them how pissed you're gonna be that you're losing channels to sdv, and if they don't do something, you're gonna end your sub. (i don't work for fios, but i know for a fact that you'll be offered something to stay a customer, but you may have to cancel your account for a day to start the action)


problem with that is the amount of tivo subs on any one cable system is pretty small. So small that it's probably more sound money wise to tell the tivo people to take a hike rather then waste the money involved to get us taken care of.

Luckily for us- there are more complext politics involved in the bigger picture...


----------



## lrhorer

cramer said:


> Exactly! To put it in other terms, it's like your computer running whatever OS and apps your ISP sends it. Consumer choice is gone; who makes your computer is irrelevant.


Why do people continue to believe this? It's completely false. OCAP / tru2way won't be able to touch the OS or to any significant extent the UI. Under any circumstances, the only thing which will run on a TiVo is a very specific Linux Kernel and a very specific set of applications. While the Linux kernel is open source, the applications are not, and if you think TiVo is going to make their source available to the CATV companies, you're nuts. OCAP / tru2way is middleware. It's not a UI, although there are primitive UI utilities designed to handle on-demand services. In the proposed solution, the user will switch to a blank UI which renders the on-demand services. These will not have any acccess to the MFS partitions, and the user will not be able to record any on-demand channels. For ordinary viewing, the user will switch back to the familiar TiVo UI. The OCAP utilities will have the ability to request limited additional menus and folders within the TiVo, but the TiVo will control where they go, how they are accessed, and what they look like.

The problem with OCAP / tru2way is not its interfering with the TiVo UI. The problem is the user cannot control the delivery of software and features. The CATV system - deliberately or otherwise - will be able to load spyware or a virus to the TiVo, and there is nothing the TiVo owner can do about it. The CATV companiesa re also not required to allow third party developers to create applications and have them put onto the TiVo at the owner's request.


----------



## cramer

lrhorer said:


> Why do people continue to believe this?...


Because that's the way it works. Go. Read. The. Flipping. Standards.

(It's all JAVA(tm), by the way. which is it's own can of worms.)

If I wanted to build OCAP boxes, I'd be building a system to run a java vm providing the API's required by the standard. Bottom line, your experience will be whatever your cable operator wants. No matter who makes the box, they will all look and function exactly the same (within the same cable network.)

But don't listen to me -- someone who read the OCAP specs, laughed and then burned the hard drive containing them. CE manufacturers and Tivo, Inc. have complained about it as well. Tivo *CANNOT* make an OCAP Tivo that will be the tivo you expect it to be _because_ it's up to whatever the MSO sends it - PERIOD. Even the "Comcast Tivo" isn't a tivo, and that's with Tivo, Inc. providing the app.


----------



## moyekj

cramer said:


> Because that's the way it works. Go. Read. The. Flipping. Standards.
> 
> (It's all JAVA(tm), by the way. which is it's own can of worms.)
> 
> If I wanted to build OCAP boxes, I'd be building a system to run a java vm providing the API's required by the standard. Bottom line, your experience will be whatever your cable operator wants. No matter who makes the box, they will all look and function exactly the same (within the same cable network.)
> 
> But don't listen to me -- someone who read the OCAP specs, laughed and then burned the hard drive containing them. CE manufacturers and Tivo, Inc. have complained about it as well. Tivo *CANNOT* make an OCAP Tivo that will be the tivo you expect it to be _because_ it's up to whatever the MSO sends it - PERIOD. Even the "Comcast Tivo" isn't a tivo, and that's with Tivo, Inc. providing the app.


 Well perhaps you must of missed this piece of information:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519815500


> In this proceeding, TiVo had expressed concerns about the cable industry's OpenCable Application Platform ("OCAP") specifications and license terms. In response to TiVo's concerns, the cable industry has agreed to work with TiVo to make clarifications or adjustments to OCAP that may be necessary to enable TiVo to build what TiVo believes can be a viable retail DVR with OCAP. We explained that a TiVo DVR with OCAP would have a "TiVo mode" displaying all linear channels (including switched digital video enabled by OCAP) with the TiVo user interface and full DVR functionality as well as a "cable mode" running OCAP and displaying all cable programming services with the cable user interface without DVR functionality.


I do agree with Java being a can of worms, however...


----------



## acvthree

>>>Well perhaps you must of missed this piece of information:

Have those adjustments for Tivo been put into the standard or are those adjustments to the standard only an agreement with Tivo?

Al


----------



## moyekj

acvthree said:


> >>>Well perhaps you must of missed this piece of information:
> 
> Have those adjustments for Tivo been put into the standard or are those adjustments to the standard only an agreement with Tivo?
> 
> Al


 From the quote above it seems like the plan is to amend the OCAP specs themselves to satisfy Tivo, but that should also allow any other licensee to also take advantage of those amendments. Of course what is being proposed on paper is a lot easier than the actual implementation...


----------



## MichaelK

it gets more complex becasue sony apparently got the same or different changes made for their agreement with cable. 

I'm not sure if the standards themselves got changed or merely the cable people came to an agreement with tivo and now sony not to use them in a manner to be a major pain in the butt to CE people.

would be nice if there was a PUBLIC document outlining what the new agreement(s) is(are) specifically. (or "clarifications"...) Maybe the FCC will demand it?


----------



## MichaelK

press release about the sony agreement:

http://www.ncta.com/ReleaseType/Med...-National-Two-Way-Plug-and-Play-Solution.aspx



> WASHINGTON, D.C. - Sony Electronics and major cable operators which together pass over 105 million U.S. homes have *negotiated and signed an agreement *that will enable consumers to purchase innovative "two-way" digital televisions and other devices that can receive interactive digital and high-definition video services without a set-top box, Sony and the National Cable & Telecommunications Association (NCTA) announced today. The terms of the agreement are embodied in a *binding Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) negotiated by Sony Electronics and the six largest cable companies - Comcast, Time Warner Cable, Cox, Charter, Cablevision and Bright House Networks *- which serve more than 82 percent of all U.S. cable subscribers.
> *Other consumer electronics companies will be beneficiaries of this new national two-way "plug-and-play" platform and have also been invited to formally join the MOU.*This negotiated industry agreement establishes the fundamentals for a competitive retail market for "two-way" digital cable-ready devices. It addresses how such products will be brought to market with interactive services like video-on-demand, digital video recording and interactive programming guides.
> In addition, the agreement makes it clear that consumers will be able to enjoy a choice of *differentiated *two-way products at retail and through cable operators from a variety of consumer electronics and information technology manufacturers. The agreement includes safeguards to facilitate the development of a robust, two-way retail market and to ensure that cable operators can continue to develop and offer new competitive services
> &#8230;.
> As part of the agreement, the parties will adopt: the Java-based "tru2way" solution as the national interactive "plug-and-play" standard; *new streamlined technology licenses*; and new ways for content providers, consumer electronics manufacturers, information technology companies and cable operators to cooperate in evolving the tru2way technology at Cable Television Laboratories (CableLabs), the cable industry's research and development consortium
> &#8230;.


----------



## MichaelK

would be nice to actually be able to read it somplace...

Do I remember correctly that the original one way cablecard specs started out as an MOU between the CEA and NCTA and the FCC later blessed it to become the basis of the current regulations? I think that's how that went down and so now maybe this new MOU will become teh basis for new 2-way regulations?


----------



## cramer

It all comes down to what Cable Labs will certify. Without this "MOU", the only thing anyone can make is a pure OCAP device. It sounds like they've come to an understanding whereby Tivo can make a box with a transmitter in it that still runs the standard tivo interface everyone loves -- I assume that means that interface will not be allowed to use the transmitter (for anything but SDV?)

But until Cable Labs publishes revised standards or additional docs, no one knows. At any rate, it makes no difference to _existing_ tivo's.


----------



## lrhorer

cramer said:


> Because that's the way it works. Go. Read. The. Flipping. Standards.


I have, thanks. I also understand them.



cramer said:


> (It's all JAVA(tm), by the way. which is it's own can of worms.)


...and since Java is not an OS, and OCAP is middleware, it needn't impact the UI, and indeed can't to any significant great fundamental extent. Now, mind you, what CableLabs will certify or refuse to certify is another matter, but the whole point of having OCAP in the first place is to allow the 3rd party OS to interact with the CATV company's OS. Any functions required by the CATV OS are relayed to the 3rd party OS and moderate the interface (typically by adding menus) to the 3rd party UI. The way TiVo is proposing to implement this is to create two independant UIs, one for TiVo mode and one for On Demand mode.

There is simply no way the OCAP agent could know about or interface directly with every piece of hardware out there, and it's only going to be able to worry about 2-way interactivity with the CATV company. The TV, OTOH, may have a web interface, an AVR interface, OSD for all sorts of functions, bells and whistles, multiple PIP, as many as a dozen or more inputs, card readers, USB interfaces, various OTA capabilities, you name it. It could even be - gasp - a DVR.



cramer said:


> If I wanted to build OCAP boxes, I'd be building a system to run a java vm providing the API's required by the standard. Bottom line, your experience will be whatever your cable operator wants.


'Only for the OCAP interface, and even that is renderd by the local OS, not by the OCAP software.



cramer said:


> CE manufacturers and Tivo, Inc. have complained about it as well.


Yes, they have.



cramer said:


> Tivo *CANNOT* make an OCAP Tivo that will be the tivo you expect it to be _because_ it's up to whatever the MSO sends it - PERIOD.


Try a bit more research. I suggest starting with the definition of "middleware".



cramer said:


> Even the "Comcast Tivo" isn't a tivo, and that's with Tivo, Inc. providing the app.


Which proves my point, partially. The Comcast TiVo isn't a "real" TiVo for two reasons. The first is TiVo modified their software to meet Comcast's requirements. The second, more fundamental reason, however, is that the Comcast TiVo doesn't have the same hardware the "real" TiVo does, and so it can't use precisely the same software.


----------



## classicsat

cramer said:


> It sounds like they've come to an understanding whereby Tivo can make a box with a transmitter in it that still runs the standard tivo interface everyone loves -- I assume that means that interface will not be allowed to use the transmitter (for anything but SDV?)


Yes. The TiVo UI/software will not be able to access two-way except for SDV. It will have to switch to the Tru2Way mode to get that.


----------



## skaggs

So the 2Q of 2008 is coming to a close in 3 days and no release of the tuning adapter.

It's so frustrating not being able to record all 60+ of the HD channels available from TWC.


----------



## bferrell

Depends, my company is on a June-July business cycle, so Q12008 is just about to start for us...

My tongue is in cheek.... no flames please...


----------



## ASW

skaggs said:


> So the 2Q of 2008 is coming to a close in 3 days and no release of the tuning adapter.
> 
> It's so frustrating not being able to record all 60+ of the HD channels available from TWC.


I believe the "Cert Wave 60" certification meetings for CableLabs to certify the tuning adapters by Cisco and Motorola were just this week, so I would think July or August for availability is more realistic.

http://www.cablelabs.com/downloads/2008_Certification_Schedule.pdf


----------



## George Cifranci

skaggs said:


> So the 2Q of 2008 is coming to a close in 3 days and no release of the tuning adapter.
> 
> It's so frustrating not being able to record all 60+ of the HD channels available from TWC.


Fortunately for us in Time Warner Columbus Ohio area they haven't gone to switched digital yet. Hopefully the tuner will be released around the same time we go SDV. Here is the current HD lineup we have...

700	HBO HDTV	
701	Showtime HD	
704	WCMH HD Columbus, OH (NBC)	
706	WSYX HD Columbus, Ohio (ABC)	
710	WBNS HD Columbus, Ohio	
728	WTTE HD Columbus, OH (Fox)	
734	WOSU HD Columbus, OH (PBSHD)	
746	WWHO 46 HD Chillicothe, OH (CW)	
750	HD Theater	
751	TNT in HD	
752	Sports Time Ohio HD	
753	FSN Ohio HD	
754	Versus/Golf Channel HD	
759	TBS in HD	
761	National Geographic HD	
766	A&E High Definition	
768	HGTV HD	
775	MOJO	
777	HDNet	
778	HDNET Movies	
780	Universal HD	
785	ESPN-HD	
786	ESPN2-HD


----------



## m_jonis

ASW said:


> I believe the "Cert Wave 60" certification meetings for CableLabs to certify the tuning adapters by Cisco and Motorola were just this week, so I would think July or August for availability is more realistic.
> 
> http://www.cablelabs.com/downloads/2008_Certification_Schedule.pdf


I think Comcast said sometime in October, so my guess is October or later (knowing our local TW Albany, it'll be "later").


----------



## ASW

m_jonis said:


> I think Comcast said sometime in October, so my guess is October or later (knowing our local TW Albany, it'll be "later").


I was not aware Comcast has given any timing for a tuning adapter ( I didn't know they had even committed to going SDV at this point other than in a couple of test markets). Cox has said "later this year." I guess when it is available it will be available.


----------



## ASW

Looks like TW will be offering tuning adapters free also -

http://blogs.kansascity.com/tvbarn/2008/06/time-warner-giv.html

"We expect to be able to offer Tuning Adapters to customers with compatible UDCPs later this year. At that time we will provide you with additional information on availability and device compatibility. It is currently contemplated that the Tuning Adapter will be provided at no additional charge. Until the Tuning Adapter becomes available, however, a Time Warner Cable digital cable set-top box will be required to view channels migrated to SDV  even if you own a Tuning Adapter-compatible UDCP. In addition, certain non-TiVo UDCP models may not work with the Tuning Adapter."

Since this letter suggests the TW SDV switch will take place 8/20/08, it also appears TW does not expect to have tuning adapters available before 8/20.


----------



## thehepcat

It is extremely frustrating to call TW and have to talk to three different people before you get one that even knows what a tuning adapter is.


----------



## poma3

I received the dreaded TWC letter today letting me know that 54 of my channels will soon be SDV (surprisingly they don't list Bravo...the only channel so far already being broadcast in SDV...but, I digress). The interesting part is the comment about the cost of the tuning adapter (which will be available "later this year")...the letter reads; "it is currently contemplated that the Tuning Adapter will be provided at no additional charge" - you heard right...no charge!

Maybe someone inside the Death Star does have a heart!


----------



## bitbanger

An extremely non-committal response, with regard to both availability and schedule:

"Thank you for writing Time Warner Cable. As noted in the link you provided, a Tuning Adapter is a device that allows cable card devices to work with SDV (Switched Digital Video) technology. Currently, the first generation of these devices is still being tested. Also, launches of new equipment often come with supply bottlenecks that can delay initial availability. As there is no set timeframe for that testing to be completed, and there is no way of forseeing what other issues might arise prior to the formal launch of this new technology, I am unable to provide you with a specific launch date within our division of the company. Please know that we are very aware of Tuning Adapters and look forward to offering them."


----------



## Kablemodem

I received a letter from TWC today asking me to complete a postcard or call them with the pairing data for my CableCARDS. How they don't have this info is beyond me, but I wonder if it is in preparation for distributing tuning adapters. We don't have SDV here yet, so maybe not. Could they actually be planning to implement SDV and sending out tuning adapters at the same time?


----------



## Scopeman

skaggs said:


> So the 2Q of 2008 is coming to a close in 3 days and no release of the tuning adapter.
> 
> It's so frustrating not being able to record all 60+ of the HD channels available from TWC.


I was called by the folks at TWC last week about SDV Tuning Adapter. They asked for permission to pass my contact info to Tivo for inclusion in a beta test of the adapter that is starting next week.

This is good news - seems like we're getting closer to widespread availability.

I'll post any more info I get (although once the beta gear arrives I expect I;ll have to agree to another NDA).


----------



## ASW

http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=457321


----------



## jmaditto

Found this too

http://text.dslreports.com/shownews/CableLabs-Greenlights-SDV-Adapters-96255


----------



## lessd

The guided setup in 9.4 does ask if you have a tuner adapter like it asks if you have cable cards (if you don't) and now asks if you going to get cable cards in the near future as it will bring in the digital guide data before the cards are installed...I don't know if that means you will not have to re-run guided setup after you install the cable card(s),


----------



## MichaelK

lessd said:


> The guided setup in 9.4 does ask if you have a tuner adapter like it asks if you have cable cards (if you don't) and now asks if you going to get cable cards in the near future as it will bring in the digital guide data before the cards are installed...I don't know if that means you will not have to re-run guided setup after you install the cable card(s),


thats pretty slick (about asking if cards on the way)-

sounds like at least it starts downloading and indexing the digital cable channels too...


----------



## lreinstein

skaggs said:


> So the 2Q of 2008 is coming to a close in 3 days and no release of the tuning adapter.
> 
> It's so frustrating not being able to record all 60+ of the HD channels available from TWC.


hi

i am also a frustrated twc/tivo user. do you have any idea when the sdv adapter will be made available and by what means we will be notified?

thanks

larry


----------



## dpratt

Scopeman said:


> I was called by the folks at TWC last week about SDV Tuning Adapter. They asked for permission to pass my contact info to Tivo for inclusion in a beta test of the adapter that is starting next week.
> 
> This is good news - seems like we're getting closer to widespread availability.
> 
> I'll post any more info I get (although once the beta gear arrives I expect I;ll have to agree to another NDA).


How do I get in this beta? Seriously, I'll do pretty much anything to get my hands on a tuning adapter, and Tivo/TWC can be damn sure that I'll overflow their inboxes with beta reports.


----------



## KariInWonderland

dpratt said:


> How do I get in this beta? Seriously, I'll do pretty much anything to get my hands on a tuning adapter, and Tivo/TWC can be damn sure that I'll overflow their inboxes with beta reports.


Ditto! These tuners need to start getting out there before the complete conversion in Feb!


----------



## cableguy763

KariInWonderland said:


> Ditto! These tuners need to start getting out there before the complete conversion in Feb!


If you have cable you do not need to worry about the Feb. conversion. The resolvers are necessary for people with cable co's that are implementing SDV.


----------



## jrm01

KariInWonderland said:


> Ditto! These tuners need to start getting out there before the complete conversion in Feb!


The Feb convesion only affects OTA antenna users, even in Wonderland.


----------



## lrhorer

jrm01 said:


> The Feb convesion only affects OTA antenna users, even in Wonderland.


...And doesn't affect anyone with a Series III class TiVo, period, except some OTA channels might change channel numbers.


----------



## lrhorer

lreinstein said:


> i am also a frustrated twc/tivo user. do you have any idea when the sdv adapter will be made available and by what means we will be notified?


One would hope before the next millennium, and check the horizon for smoke signals.

Both Cisco and Motorola TAs have passed CableLabs certification, as well as the TiVo. Beta programs either have started or will be starting in the next few weeks in a number of markets for various MSOs. What the manufacturing and rollout schedule is going to be for any given market is anybody's guess. I wouldn't be surprised if it is year's end before the units are generally available in some markets, and I will be surprised if any officially hit he shelves in any market before October.

Patience.


----------



## k2ue

I just received a letter today from Time Warner Rochester, NY that was very similar to other letters published here -- it rather looks like there is a corporate template. The specifics here are that they converting 12 more non-HD channels to SDV in a month, and they will be unavailable to CableCard customers, HOWEVER there will be NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE Tuning Adapters *later this year* (no date specified) for TiVo Series 3 and TiVo HD (mentioned by name). All new HD channels in the Rochester system have been SDV since the end of 2006.


----------



## moyekj

lrhorer said:


> ...And doesn't affect anyone with a Series III class TiVo, period, except some OTA channels might change channel numbers.


 Yes and some may move to VHF frequency range depending on which market you are in which may cause some reception issues depending on the antenna in use.


----------



## KariInWonderland

Ah, well here in Wonderland they're switching to SDV also, which does not make me happy! I've already lost quite a few channels that I liked and the cable company doesn't seem to care.


----------



## Bing3000

Got a form letter from Time Warner today indicating some standard def digital channels are moving to SDV starting Sept. 4.

The interesting part is after the "you need digital-cable equipment with two way capabilities..."

"In addition, in the future we expect that devices for purchase at retail will enable access to the two-way services that we provide."

Now later in the letter it does say
"If you would like to obtain equipment from Time Warner Cable that provides access to two-way services, we offer many attractive pricing plans that include such devices..."
I think they are saying they will rent you what is required for SDV (cable box or TWdvr), or us TiVo HDers will have to run to Best Buy when the dongle is available.

I did just call TW to ding my digital movie package (Encore, etc.) because 4 of the Encore channels were moving to SDV. The rep had no knowledge of an adapter (as expected).

So it goes-


----------



## mbhuff

No, what some cable providers are saying is that "tru2way" will be available. The tuning adapters won't be sold to the public. Neither SA nor Motorola will sell the devices to the public.

Since their is no mandate from the FCC for the tuning adapter, some cable providers may decide to not suport the tuning adapter at all. They will be happy to lease you their DVR or tell you to wait for tru2way.

BTW, if you think tru2way is the answer, then you might want to read up on it. It isn't a protocol like the SDV tuning adapter is using, rather your TV or other device will download the entire OS from the cable company and they will control the UI. TiVO has announced they are working on a tru2way sandbox so you will be able to download a special version of the cable companies OS as a sub-menu on the next generation of TiVO. However, neither cablelabs nor the cable companies have announced support for that. If they don't, then either you will have to run the full cable companies OS in that sandbox or it won't work at all.

I'm sure we will see some cable providers roll out the tuning adapter in some locations this year, but I'd be willing to bet that if you just considered the major providers (comcast, charter, TW) that they won't have it available in all areas that have SDV even by Jan 2010.


----------



## jrm01

The wording in the letter is what is confusing. When they say that:



> "In addition, in the future we expect that devices for purchase at retail will enable access to the two-way services that we provide."


They are not saying that you will be able to buy the adaptor at retail, they are saying that "devices for purchase at retail" (i.e. Tivo, TVs, etc.) will enable the access.


----------



## joedandrea

Dunnie said:


> Well ... it finally happened in Bergen County. Cablevision has switched all the VOOM stuff to SDV. No more redundant monster channel or kung foo channel. Any word on the SDV adapter ... no way am I switching from TIVO Series 3 for this.


I'm right there with you, a few counties over. "Bleah!"


----------



## JacksTiVo

I received a letter from the FCC yesterday, assigning a "User Complaint Number" to the complaint I filed on March 17, 2008 about Cablevision discriminating against CableCard users by moving channels to SDV. Our taxes at work, only 5 months to assign a complaint number, not to respond to my complaint.

As I have posted elsewhere, I had FiOS installed in the beginning of May and now could care less what Cablevision plans to do about SDV. Good luck to those of you who have no choice but to stay with your cable provider.


----------



## JacksTiVo

JacksTiVo said:


> I received a letter from the FCC yesterday, assigning a "User Complaint Number" to the complaint I filed on March 17, 2008 about Cablevision discriminating against CableCard users by moving channels to SDV. Our taxes at work, only 5 months to assign a complaint number, not to respond to my complaint.
> 
> As I have posted elsewhere, I had FiOS installed in the beginning of May and now could care less what Cablevision plans to do about SDV. Good luck to those of you who have no choice but to stay with your cable provider.


As I stated above the FCC finally got around to assigning a complaint file number to my case. Yesterday, I received a call from Cablevision stating they received my complaint from the FCC but also note that I had canceled my service as of May 7. Therefore as far as Cablevision is concerned the case is closed.

In other words, they will be able to state to the FCC that the complaint was resolved. What will be missing in their reply to the FCC is that the resolution to my issue with Cablevision's transition to SDV was for me to become a Verizon FiOS customer, not something they did to fix the problem. That is, the remaining TiVo S3 or HD customers will not benefit from my complaint since Cablevision just swept it away without acknowledging to the FCC that the SDV and CableCard issue is still outstanding.

Thank goodness I had an alternative, but unfortunately others do not.


----------



## Scopeman

dpratt said:


> How do I get in this beta? Seriously, I'll do pretty much anything to get my hands on a tuning adapter, and Tivo/TWC can be damn sure that I'll overflow their inboxes with beta reports.


Sorry, I did not ignore this request - I've been offline for a while.

The process was:
1. Phone call to local TWC was escalated to central tech support office for CableCard customers (I called to complain about SDV) - June 08
2. TWC central tech support office for CableCard customers called me back, offered me free TWC HD DVR - July 08
3. TWC central tech support office for CableCard customers called me back a second time, a month later, and asked if they could send my name to Tivo as a possible beta tester (as beta of 9.4 was required for testing adapter). They also spoke to my local TWC office about getting the hardware - end of July 08

The events that follow are something I'll be able to post details on in about 45 days.


----------



## MichaelK

you big tease!

glad to hear you will have somethign to tell us in 45 days.

that's great news.


----------



## dpratt

Scopeman said:


> Sorry, I did not ignore this request - I've been offline for a while.
> 
> The process was:
> 1. Phone call to local TWC was escalated to central tech support office for CableCard customers (I called to complain about SDV) - June 08
> 2. TWC central tech support office for CableCard customers called me back, offered me free TWC HD DVR - July 08
> 3. TWC central tech support office for CableCard customers called me back a second time, a month later, and asked if they could send my name to Tivo as a possible beta tester (as beta of 9.4 was required for testing adapter). They also spoke to my local TWC office about getting the hardware - end of July 08
> 
> The events that follow are something I'll be able to post details on in about 45 days.


I'm in central Texas as well, and I have been waiting for the tuning adapter for what seems like years.

Tivo - if you are reading this, the very day that I get a tuning adapter in my hands is the day that I buy another Tivo Series 3/HD/Whatever the best model it is, along with a lifetime subscription. I'll also start evangalizing you to all my friends again - I can think of at least five people who will buy a TivoHD almost immediately when that happens.

Time Warner Austin - Please please please please please give me a reason to stay with you. It really bothers me that I'm only getting time warner because all the other options are awful (no tivo support, bad picture, no speedy internet) but I'd drop you in less than a heartbeat if when DirectTV releases their Tivo box. It doesn't have to be like this. All it would take is the ability to watch Formula 1 in my living room again. Time Warner + Tuning Adapter + Tivo = the hands down best TV service in the county. Time Warner + SDV = one very unhappy high value customer.


----------



## rockonpearl

I spoke with Catalina Mehler from the office of the president, Time Warner Cable of Maine yesterday. She says that they have ordered the new SDV hardware dongles, but had no date for deployment. When I first spoke to her, she said that she and two of the VP's there had no idea what I was talking about. Then I sent her a list of links from the web and she said that she found an executive VP that knew about the SDV issue with TIVO's & cablecards ......interesting. I told her that I wanted to be a beta tester. We'll see. Lots of luck everyone!


----------



## jgoerke

I can only add to the frustrating experiences shared in this string. I've gone around and around with both customer service and technical support in both the Austin area, and Central Texas (as I know other folks have). I've yet to discover a single rep that even knows what a SDV adapter is, let alone when such might be available. You would think that if TW was really serious about them, they would provide some supportive training to their customer reps. If I had a date--any date--I could plan around that. But, that doesn't seem to be their approach. At this point, I think TW is purposefully staying vague. 

Bottom line, AT&T is now beginning to offer their U-Verse service in my area, so I have options (wonder of all wonders--a potential competitive environment). I would hate to do that, because I would have to give up my Tivo, but I'm so close to making that decision.


----------



## slimoli

jgoerke said:


> Bottom line, AT&T is now beginning to offer their U-Verse service in my area, so I have options (wonder of all wonders--a potential competitive environment). I would hate to do that, because I would have to give up my Tivo, but I'm so close to making that decision.


You can survive without TiVo but U-Verse picture quality is inferior to any cable or satellite. If you have a large screen Tv (over 55") you are going to notice a big picture degradation. U-Verse can only stream 2 HD programs and its DVR can only record 1 HD at the same time. They obviously don't advertise that and prefer to say it can record 4 programs at the same time but it means 3 SD and only one HD . Stay with cable or move to directv. U-Verse is bad technology, don't think they are FIOS.


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## frogger22

I spoke on the phone with the Cox sales department this evening (Sep. 30) and they seemed to be well aware of the SDV/CableCard issue. He indicated that the SDV tuning adapters would be available here in Fairfax, VA, on Oct. 10, 2008. He was pretty sure that they were being rolled out nationally to all Cox systems at about the same time. Cox-VA customers should call tech support to order one, after Oct. 10. I asked if a technician needed to deliver/install the adapter, but he said no. They would probably just mail it to me. I am keeping my fingers crossed.


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## txporter

My wife spoke to someone from TW Austin (Central Texas) that knew WTH a tuning adapter was. He told her it was looking like a November deployment best case. More likely beginning of 2009. :down:


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## shabby46

frogger22 said:


> I spoke on the phone with the Cox sales department this evening (Sep. 30) and they seemed to be well aware of the SDV/CableCard issue. He indicated that the SDV tuning adapters would be available here in Fairfax, VA, on Oct. 10, 2008. He was pretty sure that they were being rolled out nationally to all Cox systems at about the same time. Cox-VA customers should call tech support to order one, after Oct. 10. I asked if a technician needed to deliver/install the adapter, but he said no. They would probably just mail it to me. I am keeping my fingers crossed.


I hope you are telling the truth... Did he say that you would need to call ahead to reserve one, or that all of us with Cablecards would get one or be alerted when available?

Ill be calling here in about 5 min to check on this info...


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## shabby46

I just spoke to someone and the woman said she had no idea what I was talking about. I dont think she even knew what the adapter was. I will try back later today and hopefully get a different person. But Im not convinced of anything yet...


----------



## ajwees41

frogger22 said:


> I spoke on the phone with the Cox sales department this evening (Sep. 30) and they seemed to be well aware of the SDV/CableCard issue. He indicated that the SDV tuning adapters would be available here in Fairfax, VA, on Oct. 10, 2008. He was pretty sure that they were being rolled out nationally to all Cox systems at about the same time. Cox-VA customers should call tech support to order one, after Oct. 10. I asked if a technician needed to deliver/install the adapter, but he said no. They would probably just mail it to me. I am keeping my fingers crossed.


What about areas that don't do SDV yet like Omaha?


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## dagware

ajwees41 said:


> What about areas that don't do SDV yet like Omaha?


If they don't do SDV, then why do you care when they'll be releasing the adapter? Just curious.

Dan


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## ajwees41

dagware said:


> If they don't do SDV, then why do you care when they'll be releasing the adapter? Just curious.
> 
> Dan


All I meant was he probably means areas that have deployed sdv will get them first followed by the other areas just a guess.


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## Saxion

dagware said:


> If they don't do SDV, then why do you care when they'll be releasing the adapter? Just curious.


The tuning adapter maintains its own channel map, which might allow the TiVo to associate guide data to clear QAM (basic tier) cable channels in the absence of CableCARDs. This is a potential use of the adapter that is unrelated to SDV.


----------



## Combat Medic

Wow. So, I sent a fax to the President of Time Warner San Antonio about a month ago trying to get into the beta for the Tuning Resolver. Since I hadn't heard anything I figured I would call and talk to somebody in his office. So I dial their operator number and I'm given an option for if you know the name but not the extension. I press that and put in the last name of the region's president. One automated transfer later and I'm talking to him. Not an underling, him.

I explained what I'm looking for and either him or the VP of Engineering is going to call me back.

Wow.


----------



## MichaelK

Saxion said:


> The tuning adapter maintains its own channel map, which might allow the TiVo to associate guide data to clear QAM (basic tier) cable channels in the absence of CableCARDs. This is a potential use of the adapter that is unrelated to SDV.


Thats a possibility if the system already does SDV.

But if its a non-sdv system is it at all likely they will stock adapters and set up their head ends to work nicely with an adapter? Seems hard enough to get an adapter if the system has sdv.


----------



## Saxion

Very true Michael. It's uncertain when, or even if, a particular MSO would supply tuning adapters if SDV were not yet deployed. But the economic incentive of SDV is extremely compelling, so it should become ubiquitous eventually. If an MSO were preparing for SDV, they might stock and support TA's early.

Of course, most CSRs barely know what a CableCARD is, let alone a tuning adapter. So if they stock them at all, you could probably keep calling until you find a CSR that would send one to you even if they don't do SDV yet, or if you don't subscribe to digital cable.


----------



## Enforcer

Combat Medic said:


> Wow. So, I sent a fax to the President of Time Warner San Antonio about a month ago trying to get into the beta for the Tuning Resolver. Since I hadn't heard anything I figured I would call and talk to somebody in his office. So I dial their operator number and I'm given an option for if you know the name but not the extension. I press that and put in the last name of the region's president. One automated transfer later and I'm talking to him. Not an underling, him.
> 
> I explained what I'm looking for and either him or the VP of Engineering is going to call me back.
> 
> Wow.


If you get more information, hook a brother up! Dying here w/o the majority of the HD channels!


----------



## milo99

frogger22 said:


> I spoke on the phone with the Cox sales department this evening (Sep. 30) and they seemed to be well aware of the SDV/CableCard issue. He indicated that the SDV tuning adapters would be available here in Fairfax, VA, on Oct. 10, 2008. He was pretty sure that they were being rolled out nationally to all Cox systems at about the same time. Cox-VA customers should call tech support to order one, after Oct. 10. I asked if a technician needed to deliver/install the adapter, but he said no. They would probably just mail it to me. I am keeping my fingers crossed.


i called tech support yesterday. the guy had no earthly clue what i was talking about. he put me on hold to look up his info, and he apparently found something to clue him in as to what the SDV and cable card issue is, but then said they had no info on the adapter rolling out.

sigghhhhhhh


----------



## Combat Medic

Enforcer said:


> If you get more information, hook a brother up! Dying here w/o the majority of the HD channels!


I do plan to.


----------



## skaggs

I have become friendly with the lead TWC tech here in Albany,NY. He is very knowledgeable with cable card issues and has come over to my house personally when I was going through same mapping issues. I called him on his cell phone this afternoon and asked if he has heard anything about implementation of Tuning Adapters, but he had not. 

I volunteered to be a beta tester and he requested that I call him every few weeks to see if there is any new news.

It took me a while to finally find a person at TWC that is knowledgeable about cable cards and it is a relief not having to go through the uninformed reps at the call center to reach someone "in the know". However, it is a little frustrating when we here in the TiVo Community seem to know more about cable card & tuning adapter issues than the employees of TWC.


----------



## theSTEREO.

I'm a Time Warner customer in Northeast Ohio.

I called TWC about two weeks ago, and after a few phone calls and some long waits, I finally found someone that knew about the adapters. TWC is switching to SDV for a few channels on Oct 20, and I got a letter stating that they will have the adapters likely free of charge "later in 2008". (The letter came about 3 or 4 weeks ago).

The guy said that he did not know what date they expected to receive the adapters, but said to hang on to the letter i got because i might be asked to use it as a coupon to pick up an adapter when they are available.

Has anyone else heard anything about NE Ohio adapters being available yet?


----------



## realityboy

I live in Southwest Ohio's region, and we got the letter quite a bit ago. It said they would start SDV on August 15 for several lesser used channels (there was a list). As of right now, I can still get all of those channels with my cablecards minus one I was having trouble with anyway. Possibly they are testing on that one. No word on adapters yet.


----------



## skaggs

Albany TWC has been using SDV since September 2006. So, it has been over two years for those of us with cable cards in our TiVos not being able to receive all the channels available. At last count, there were 121 channels being sent via SDV here, of which 35 are HD channels.

Maybe you can understand why those of us whose local cable monopoly has been heavily using SDV for a long time are very frustrated TiVo owners. We've been hearing about that damn tuning resolver "coming soon" for what seems liek just as long as we have had cable cards.

While I can sympathsize with those of you who received letters that "SDV will be starting soon", I don't believe anyone has been impacted more by SDV than the cable card users in TWC's leading markets in Texas, North Carolina, and Upstate NY. (where SDV has been implemented the longest)


----------



## cableguy763

Austin launched SDV in 2004. The first switched video market in the world.


----------



## theSTEREO.

skaggs said:


> Albany TWC has been using SDV since September 2006. So, it has been over two years for those of us with cable cards in our TiVos not being able to receive all the channels available. At last count, there were 121 channels being sent via SDV here, of which 35 are HD channels.
> 
> Maybe you can understand why those of us whose local cable monopoly has been heavily using SDV for a long time are very frustrated TiVo owners. We've been hearing about that damn tuning resolver "coming soon" for what seems liek just as long as we have had cable cards.
> 
> While I can sympathsize with those of you who received letters that "SDV will be starting soon", I don't believe anyone has been impacted more by SDV than the cable card users in TWC's leading markets in Texas, North Carolina, and Upstate NY. (where SDV has been implemented the longest)


I hear you.

However, I think there is finally a ray of hope for everyone now that the Tuning Adapter is officially built, available, and being tested. Empty promises in the past had nothing to back them up, but the fact that SA and Motorola have actually built these things should mean that they'll be distributed soon.

I don't think both companies are going to produce them, then let them just rot on the shelves.


----------



## rv65

San Diego has been using SDV but only for a few months. They are planning more SDV channels. Time Warner San Diego says 10 to 15 new HD channels by next year. Thats what the head guy says. They will probably use SDV so that they can get more bandwidth. Maybe a newer network could work. They were also looking at reclaming the expanded basic tier for even more bandwidth next year.


----------



## lreinstein

skaggs said:


> Albany TWC has been using SDV since September 2006. So, it has been over two years for those of us with cable cards in our TiVos not being able to receive all the channels available. At last count, there were 121 channels being sent via SDV here, of which 35 are HD channels.
> 
> Maybe you can understand why those of us whose local cable monopoly has been heavily using SDV for a long time are very frustrated TiVo owners. We've been hearing about that damn tuning resolver "coming soon" for what seems liek just as long as we have had cable cards.
> 
> While I can sympathsize with those of you who received letters that "SDV will be starting soon", I don't believe anyone has been impacted more by SDV than the cable card users in TWC's leading markets in Texas, North Carolina, and Upstate NY. (where SDV has been implemented the longest)


I am new to this discussion but am very impacted by the SDV issue. We live in TW Albany country and are even thinking about giving up and going back to the horrible TW DVR. (Has this improved any I wonder?)

Anyway, is there no LEGAL issue involved here? Has TIVO tried to stand up for its rights and its customers rights with the FCC or in court?


----------



## skaggs

lreinstein said:


> I am new to this discussion but am very impacted by the SDV issue. We live in TW Albany country and are even thinking about giving up and going back to the horrible TW DVR. (Has this improved any I wonder?)
> 
> Anyway, is there no LEGAL issue involved here? Has TIVO tried to stand up for its rights and its customers rights with the FCC or in court?


A ray of hope: The Tuning Adapter was made available to Comcast customers in Cherry Hill, NJ today. Link to post.

I placed a call to one of the head technicians in Albany TWC last week and he had not been informed of a distribution date, but did know what is tuning adapter was.

While the whole SDV issue has me upset with TWC, at least a resolution should come soon. The first LEGAL issue TiVo should look into is how the cable operators have been marking EVERY DIGITAL CHANNEL (except locals) with a copy protection flag (CCI byte) of 0x02. By doing so, Albany TWC has effectively negated some of the best features of a TiVo: TiVo-To-Go and Multiroom Viewing. Here's a link to a thread: Copy Protection Flag with TWC.


----------



## frogger22

ajwees41 said:


> What about areas that don't do SDV yet like Omaha?


I did not ask about non-SDV markets. I referenced the letter from Cox of Arizona that indicated they would be available at the end of the summer. The Fairfax sales rep. said they too were planning to deploy about that time, but it got push back for reasons unknown to him. He further explained that while each region operates independently, they attempt to roll out new technology to all markets at about the same time, unless there is technical reason preventing it.

This rep. seemed to know what he was talking about. I guess I will find out at the end of the week if this is true.


----------



## frogger22

shabby46 said:


> I hope you are telling the truth... Did he say that you would need to call ahead to reserve one, or that all of us with Cablecards would get one or be alerted when available?
> 
> Ill be calling here in about 5 min to check on this info...


I am only relaying what I was told, so I cannot state that what I was told is correct. I hope that he was, however the training and knowledge among their staff is not even, so it is no wonder that the story changes from day to day.


----------



## Rayd8tor

Well I just spent 30 minutes on the phone with a Lvl 3 tech support, and he was pretty much clueless on the status of the adapter. He said that the two-way cable cards would all but negate the need for the adapter, but that to his knowledge there were no plans to depoly these cards in anything other than the 8300. He had not heard anything at all about the adapter, which is very discouraging here in San Antonio. If anyone has any current info on the South Texas I would love to hear it. I just can't comprehend how comcast can be prepping to deploy these things and no one from TWC seems to have any concrete information about them.

Brian


----------



## fishnose

milo99 said:


> i called tech support yesterday. the guy had no earthly clue what i was talking about. he put me on hold to look up his info, and he apparently found something to clue him in as to what the SDV and cable card issue is, but then said they had no info on the adapter rolling out.
> 
> sigghhhhhhh


I got the same absence of knowledge from tech support and the supervisors he checked with. I asked to be transferred to a customer retention/loyalty customer service representative who knew nothing about an adapter but was promising two-way cable cards by the end of the quarter (November 2008) and a likely notice to all who use cable cards (whether as a separate mailing or inserts within the cable bill).

Essentially, it appears that Cox continues to leave its managers and others in the dark and is otherwise just working to keep up the promise that "the check is in the mail".


----------



## milo99

frogger22 said:


> I am only relaying what I was told, so I cannot state that what I was told is correct. I hope that he was, *however the training and knowledge among their staff is not even, so it is no wonder that the story changes from day to day*.


hehe that's the understatement of the day. 

Can you report back when you get any update/news?


----------



## morac

Rayd8tor said:


> Well I just spent 30 minutes on the phone with a Lvl 3 tech support, and he was pretty much clueless on the status of the adapter. He said that the two-way cable cards would all but negate the need for the adapter, but that to his knowledge there were no plans to depoly these cards in anything other than the 8300.


After that statement you should have just thanked him and hung up since just by that statement it shows he knows nothing about cableCARDs. There's no such thing as a two-way cable card. There's only two different types of cards S-CARDs and M-CARDs and both are two-way compatible. The reason two-way works in the 8300, is because the 8300 is two-way capable.


----------



## Rayd8tor

morac said:


> After that statement you should have just thanked him and hung up since just by that statement it shows he knows nothing about cableCARDs. There's no such thing as a two-way cable card. There's only two different types of cards S-CARDs and M-CARDs and both are two-way compatible. The reason two-way works in the 8300, is because the 8300 is two-way capable.


I know. It just boggles my mind how everytime you call these people(TWC) they know NOTHING at all about all this. I mean TWC is a major player. You would think that with comcast sending out letters to customers that they would at least have some information on the website or be sending out some information about the device themselves. The only letters I receive from them are my monthly bill and notifications of the upcoming digital broadcasting changes. My father recently turneed in his 8300. He finally had enough of that POS, and all it's shortcomings and ordered a TIVO. He hates the fact he will lose alot of his HD channels, but like all of us, he just wants a DVR that WORKS like it should. We can now add one more to the list of people that are forceably waiting for this adapter to be released or some up to date information about it.


----------



## JacksTiVo

Last Spring I filed a complaint with the FCC in regard to Cablevision moving channels to SDV prior to providing an alternative to TiVo owners with CableCards. I had filed the complaint after Cablevision gave me the "brush-off" when I told them that they were making my TiVo S3 obsolete. I subsequently left Cablevision in May and switched to Verizon FiOS.

I just received a copy of the Cablevision letter they sent the FCC in answer to my complaint. The letter does mention my disconnecting from their service, however, they stated "_...we did want to address the substance of his complaint._"

The letter went on to stated "._..Cablevision is in compliance with the FCC regulations for supporting CableCard technology and delivering programming to customers who purchase third party Digital Cable Ready (DCR) CableCard devices such as Digital Televisions (DTV'S) and digital video recorders (DVRs). CableLabs, the cable industry's research and development consortium, recently certified Switched Digital Video tuning resolvers developed by Cisco Systems and Motorola that are designed to give third-party devices like TiVo DVR's access to switched TV channels. The new hardware is intended to work with any Unidirectional Digital Cable Ready Product (UDCP) that has a USB connector and necessary firmware. Cablevision will update customers on the availability of this device in the coming months._"

The letter states they are in compliance in the coming months. I would described that as a grammatical syntax error. The letter should state that they *will* be in compliance in the coming months, i.e. after the tuner resolvers are deployed.

In any event, Cablevision will be deploying the tuner resolver for those of you who do not have an alternative service such as FiOS.


----------



## MichaelK

If you typed correctly it says they are in compliance.

I beleive that legally that is true- they are in compliance with the letter of the regulations. The regulations say nothing at all one way or the other about sdv.

The debate I think is if SDV breaks the spirit of the regulation.


----------



## vstone

CFR mentions encrypted, scrambled, and 'in the clear.' when talking about the basic tier. I don't think it says much about other digital channels except to address the PSIP stream for in the clear channels. One wonders who actually wrote that part and if was specifically writtten not to address the issue of SDV.


----------



## MichaelK

I think most of the relevent cable regulating CFR's where updated based on the 1996 telecommunications act.

Since SDV didn't really exist then it's not nutty that it's not included.

Some things have been updated since then but as a result of particular rulings. Since there hasn't been any rulings that I'm aware about SDV and 2-way and ocap vs the CE DVR+ then none of the regs where updated.

getting regs updated takes forever for most governemnt agencies. OSHA as an example is still using some things that date back to 1970ish which were based on data from like the 1950's and 1960's and hasn't gotten around to updating them yet. Considering the OSHA regs effect workers health and safety, it doesn't surprise me at all that something like cable tv regs are now 10-12 years old and out of date.


----------



## skaggs

I don't know whether to post this in the Time Warner thread or the SDV Adapter Progress thread:

After calling all my contacts at Albany TWC this week, I finally got a return call from one of the lead technicians. He told me that TWC is currently testing the device in their Charlotte, NC office. He also told me they don't expect to release the Tuning Adapters until next year.

He indicated he was on the Engadget HD site and saw that I was the first person to comment on the post.

I explained that both the Austin, TX and San Antonio, TX TWC divisions are offering to pre-order the tuning adapters on their websites.

It is somewhat of a relief to talk to someone at Albany TWC who is at least aware of the existence of the Tuning Adapters. I'm still hopeful that we may have these things before Santa comes to visit.


----------



## Revolutionary

frogger22 said:


> I spoke on the phone with the Cox sales department this evening (Sep. 30) and they seemed to be well aware of the SDV/CableCard issue. He indicated that the SDV tuning adapters would be available here in Fairfax, VA, on Oct. 10, 2008. He was pretty sure that they were being rolled out nationally to all Cox systems at about the same time. Cox-VA customers should call tech support to order one, after Oct. 10. I asked if a technician needed to deliver/install the adapter, but he said no. They would probably just mail it to me. I am keeping my fingers crossed.


Well, its Oct. 10.

I just called Cox Fairfax and spoke with Tech Support _*and*_ Sales. The tech support lady (Wanda) had no freaking clue what I was talking about -- she didn't even know that CableCard devices don't get all of Cox's channels (seriously?!? in tech support?!? wtf?!? what if some Tivo noob called and said "I'm not getting SciFi-HD!" she'd run him through 30 minutes of rebooting and reconnecting and blah blah blah...).

Wanda transfered me to sales. I didn't get the guy's name. He said they were informed about the SDV adapters about 6 months ago, but they haven't heard anything since.

I suggest we all call today. If you get someone who knows anything at all about the availability of an adapter, post their name (and an extension, if you can get it).


----------



## Rayd8tor

This is just classic TWC. Last night I was with my father getting his cable card installed in his new TivoHD. He finally had enough of the 8300, and could not take it anymore. So I'm there with the service tech, while he was installing the card, of which it was OF COURSE the first one he had done, so i basically talked him through it. While this was going on I was asking about the SDV Adapter trying to get any info I didn't already get here, and he was clueless. Now this morning I check this thread and find that FINALLY there is a link to request the adapter on the local TWC website. Less then 14hrs after sitting with a rep from TWC who knew nothing about it, there is new info on their own website. If the company I work for did buisness this way, well..... We would not be in buisness and I'd be looking for a job. LOL. Thank god there are those of us who try and stay on top of this stuff, because the company sure doesn't want to make it easy on us.


----------



## rainwater

Rayd8tor said:


> While this was going on I was asking about the SDV Adapter trying to get any info I didn't already get here, and he was clueless. Now this morning I check this thread and find that FINALLY there is a link to request the adapter on the local TWC website. Less then 14hrs after sitting with a rep from TWC who knew nothing about it, there is new info on their own website. If the company I work for did buisness this way, well..... We would not be in buisness and I'd be looking for a job. LOL. Thank god there are those of us who try and stay on top of this stuff, because the company sure doesn't want to make it easy on us.


The adapter is only for pre-order so obviously the tech installing the cablecards has not seen it yet unless he was personally involved in testing. It is also possible they aren't training every tech on installing the adapter. So I don't see how a single tech not knowing about a product he has never seen means anything.


----------



## Rayd8tor

rainwater said:


> The adapter is only for pre-order so obviously the tech installing the cablecards has not seen it yet unless he was personally involved in testing. It is also possible they aren't training every tech on installing the adapter. So I don't see how a single tech not knowing about a product he has never seen means anything.


Also add that to the above post about me speaking to lvl 3 tech support earlier this week about the same thing. Neither of them knew anything about it. That was the point, that I guess there is a select few who know anything at all about these things and they don't seem to be passing the information along to anyone else. I'm still suprise we have not seen an official letter or email from TWC about this. You would think with comcast doing it they would follow thier lead. It's not like there are a ton of us here in San Antonio who are cablecard subscribers. We are few in number compared to he amount of people living with the 8300.


----------



## rainwater

Rayd8tor said:


> It's not like there are a ton of us here in San Antonio who are cablecard subscribers. We are few in number compared to he amount of people living with the 8300.


This is exactly why no one at TWC knows about it. There is probably only one or two people responsible for testing the tuning adapter in your area. You can't expect them to train the whole company about the adapter for such a small user base.


----------



## Rayd8tor

Well after submitting my request to get one here in San Antonio, I received this back from TWC. Now I'm not sure if they are available or not.

Thank you for your request for the CableCARD Tuning Adapter. At this time the Tuning Adapter is not available in the San Antonio, TX area. We will add your name and contact information to our list and once the Tuning Adapter becomes available, we will contact you to schedule the installation.

Thank you,

Dorain Jacobs
Corporate CableCARD Escalations


----------



## gbrown

I finally got a response out of a rep on the phone. TWC-San Diego is offering a *free six months* of the two CableCards OR 1 CableCard plus a TWC HD Tuner for free while they work out the SDV stuff.

I'm off to the TWC-SD office to pick up the box.


----------



## skaggs

There's a Tuning Adapter order form on the Albany, NY TWC page, too:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/albany/Products/Cable/sdv/default.html


----------



## m_jonis

skaggs said:


> I don't know whether to post this in the Time Warner thread or the SDV Adapter Progress thread:
> 
> After calling all my contacts at Albany TWC this week, I finally got a return call from one of the lead technicians. He told me that TWC is currently testing the device in their Charlotte, NC office. He also told me they don't expect to release the Tuning Adapters until next year.
> 
> He indicated he was on the Engadget HD site and saw that I was the first person to comment on the post.
> 
> I explained that both the Austin, TX and San Antonio, TX TWC divisions are offering to pre-order the tuning adapters on their websites.
> 
> It is somewhat of a relief to talk to someone at Albany TWC who is at least aware of the existence of the Tuning Adapters. I'm still hopeful that we may have these things before Santa comes to visit.


NEXT YEAR???!!!!

Maybe this is why I hate TWC so much.


----------



## jcaudle

Here is the answer I finally got from Cox Northern Virginia customer service after several rounds of email and them pleading ignorance of the tuning adapter.

Dear Mr. Caudle:

Thank you for contacting our Cox Northern Virginia Online Customer Care Team.

Per your request, we've ensued further investigation of the specified topic. Our findings are, at this time, being informed by our Technical Department, that the tentative deployment date is November - December 2008, pending testing.

If it appeases you, we may submit your name to TiVo as an interested tester of this device. Please let me know.

Additionally, we've been informed that the adapter is only compatible with TiVo Series3 HD/DVR and TiVo HD DVRs.

Thanks for the opportunity to assist you regarding this matter. I look forward to hearing from you.

If you need additional information on other Cox products or services on our fiber optic network, please visit our web site at http://www.cox.com/fairfax . We hope that we have been able to provide you with the information you requested. If we have not, or if we can be of any additional service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us again.

My name is Connie

Thank you for choosing Cox Communications, Your Friend in the Digital Age!


----------



## jmpage2

I had a tech in from Comcast yesterday installing a M-Card in a new Tivo HD I just purchased for the bedroom.

I asked about SDV and the tuning adapter and he said that they were having a lot of problems in their SDV pilot in this area and he would be very surprised if it wasn't another year or more before it was deployed.

He also told me that they were testing Tru-2-Way stuff and that his supervisor has installed a few Tru-2-Way TVs in the area for testing.

He also hates TiVo for all the normal reasons techs whine about them, but he was optimistic about the thought of a Tru-2-Way Tivo box making his life easier.


----------



## frogger22

milo99 said:


> hehe that's the understatement of the day.
> 
> Can you report back when you get any update/news?


So I called Friday afternoon, was put on hold for 10 minutes, just to finally get the response that Cox (VA) is planning to distribute the adapters, they just don't know when. Sorry if I got any ones hopes up. I again got someone who seemed to understand the situation, but unfortunately had no details. I think I am going to establish a new weekly calling ritual.


----------



## fishnose

jcaudle said:


> Here is the answer I finally got from Cox Northern Virginia customer service after several rounds of email and them pleading ignorance of the tuning adapter.
> 
> Dear Mr. Caudle:
> 
> Thank you for contacting our Cox Northern Virginia Online Customer Care Team.
> 
> Per your request, we've ensued further investigation of the specified topic. Our findings are, at this time, being informed by our Technical Department, that the tentative deployment date is November - December 2008, pending testing.
> 
> If it appeases you, we may submit your name to TiVo as an interested tester of this device. Please let me know.
> 
> ... My name is Connie


That is a truly interesting response, especially since I also received a response from "Connie" of the The Cox Northern Virginia Online Customer Care Team on October 7, 2008 as follows:

"Thank you for contacting our Cox Northern Virginia Online Customer Care Team.

At this time, we do not have any updated information regarding the launch of this equipment, however, you may visit the TiVo website, where more information may be provided. In the interim, the cable industry and TiVo Inc. announced that an external adapter is under development that should enable TiVo® products that use CableCARDs to fully access available digital cable channels without a set-top receiver. In their announcement, TiVo predicted release of the new product sometime in 2008.

While we do not have an exact release date for this adaptor, you may wish to speak with TiVo about their intended launch date.

For future reference, please direct any "OCAP Compliant" complaints to TiVo. More information in regards to this may be found at http://www.opencable.com .

As with any breakout technology, many updates and improvements quickly follow, rendering earlier versions either obsolete or severely hindered in a short period of time.

As a side note: Other local providers are subject to the same limitations. In other words: they too, currently require use of a set-top box to have a full two- way compatibility with their system.

Thank you for the opportunity to serve you regarding this matter.

If you need additional information on other Cox products or services on our fiber optic network, please visit our web site at http://www.cox.com/fairfax . We hope that we have been able to provide you with the information you requested. If we have not, or if we can be of any additional service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us again.

My name is Connie

Thank you for choosing Cox Communications, Your Friend in the Digital Age!

Sincerely,

The Cox Northern Virginia Online Customer Care Team"

It looks like jcaudle's persistence is bearing some fruit and even producing, as in my case, new stock answers to inquiries (and, in his case, even a non-stock answer with various oddly chosen words). Switching to an appropriate SNIDE undertone..., I believe that "we've ensued further investigation" means "I asked some further questions" and "If it appeases you, we may submit your name to TiVo" means "we are hoping that you will stop writing us, if we tell TiVo (or pretend to tell TiVo) that you might be interested in beta testing".

I have long ago told TiVo and Cox that I would like to test the dongle, USB adapter, tuning adapter, etc. and a contact I had made a Cox is holding my name for just such purposes as well. Let's see how (or if) this comes together.

BTW, Milo99, we haven't heard anything from jfranklin in a while after he tried to break into the byzantine maze in Cox technical support/customer service. Did you have any open line to him and does he know how to get more info from "Connie"?


----------



## jmpage2

It's particularly annoying to see Cox try to blame this on Tivo when they know damn well that Cable Card, which they and other cable companies backed (and developed) were never going to be capable of SDV in the first place.


----------



## ajwees41

jmpage2 said:


> It's particularly annoying to see Cox try to blame this on Tivo when they know damn well that Cable Card, which they and other cable companies backed (and developed) were never going to be capable of SDV in the first place.


The cable cards support it. It's the tivo that does have the hardware, so tivo should be to blame for not working with the cable companies before the orignal S3 came out.


----------



## jmpage2

ajwees41 said:


> The cable cards support it. It's the tivo that does have the hardware, so tivo should be to blame for not working with the cable companies before the orignal S3 came out.


I think you are mistaken. Cable Cards are not capable of doing SDV without special proprietary hardware per cable system that Tivo never would have had access to in the first place.

The entire point of Cable Card was to level the playing field and SDV with no workaround clearly flies in the face of what Cable Card was supposed to do per the FCC mandate.


----------



## ajwees41

jmpage2 said:


> I think you are mistaken. Cable Cards are not capable of doing SDV without special proprietary hardware per cable system that Tivo never would have had access to in the first place.
> 
> The entire point of Cable Card was to level the playing field and SDV with no workaround clearly flies in the face of what Cable Card was supposed to do per the FCC mandate.


Then why are all cable cards 2way?

The cable companies use the same boxes as the due now with SDV so no new hardware is needed except for the Tivo's. It's the tivo hardware that doesn't support 2way.


----------



## jmpage2

ajwees41 said:


> Then why are all cable cards 2way?
> 
> The cable companies use the same boxes as the due now with SDV so no new hardware is needed except for the Tivo's. It's the tivo hardware that doesn't support 2way.


Now you're starting to irritate me since you obviously don't know what you're talking about. There is no circuitry in the cable card that allows for 2-way communication. The 2-way communication is handled by the host device. Since there are dozens of different cable systems there was no cost effective way for Tivo to make their boxes 2-way capable. Additionally if you know anything about Cable (as you seem to imply you do) you would understand that without running an OCAP system there is no way that the Tivo would have been allowed to do 2-way communication on the provider network.

It's not Tivos fault that the CC standard sucks as bad as it does or that the Cable Companies almost immediately wanted to jettison it after it was force-implemented. Tivo was handed a pile of crap by cable labs in the form of Cable Cards and they did the best with it that they could. Hopefully Tru-2-Way will be less of a cluster than Cable Card has been.

Why don't you read a little more on CC since you clearly don't know what the hell you are talking about.



> A common misconception is that there is a CableCARD 2.0 physical card that will provide two way services and will not be compatible with CableCARD 1.0 certified devices. This is not the case. CableCARD 2.0 host devices will only use either SCards or MCards that also work with CableCARD 1.0.
> 
> Interactive CableCARD 2.0 features rely on additional circuitry in the CableCARD Host device, not on the physical card. There is no directionality about the cards. This makes the name "CableCARD 2.0" extremely misleading, since it mostly has nothing to do with the physical CableCARDs.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CableCARD


----------



## elkyss

excerpted from the COX FAQ on cablecards:

The first generation of CableCARDs is &#8220;one-way,&#8221; meaning the service cannot support two-way interactivity. One-way CableCARDs are not capable of accessing interactive program guides (IPG), Parental Controls, Entertainment on Demand (EOD) services, Pay-Per-View (PPV) movies, or special program events. The cable and consumer electronics industries are currently exploring a two-way technology, but its availability has not been determined.


----------



## sieglinde

After a few phone calls and some Tivo forum conversations, I have discovered that my stupid cable company issued a nice little cable box and called it a converter. I later found the model on the Motorola page. So they don't have a clue.


----------



## Saxion

This discussion of one-way vs two-way services has nothing to do with CableCARDs, which don't care and work just as well in either type of system. The reason TiVo and all other third-party cable devices are one-way is because the license that CableLabs makes available to third party manufacturers _requires _that they be one-way. It is thus a licensing problem (and partly a technological problem for not converging sooner on a single unified standard for two-way services). The blame for this lies squarely at the feet of CableLabs and the cable industry.

The next license to be made available to third-party manufacturers will be based on Tru2Way technology, which will use the same CableCARDs in use today and will support two-way services.


----------



## wierdo

jmpage2 said:


> I think you are mistaken. Cable Cards are not capable of doing SDV without special proprietary hardware per cable system that Tivo never would have had access to in the first place.
> 
> The entire point of Cable Card was to level the playing field and SDV with no workaround clearly flies in the face of what Cable Card was supposed to do per the FCC mandate.


The CableCARDs themselves aren't the problem; they only deal with access control. The problem lies in the definition of a unidirectional digital cable product and CableLabs' requirement that any box capable in hardware of upstream communication use OCAP (now tru2way). If TiVo had built a box capable of upstream communication, CableLabs would not have approved it without OCAP.

TiVo could have built a two way box, but it would have had to run the cable company's software, not their own.

Thankfully, a compromise has been reached that will in the future allow TiVo to build a box running their software that runs the tru2way stack alongside to handle the two-way stuff, but that doesn't help anything today, or even next year, since they stalled for so many years on doing anything about this.

Basically, a UDCP can't have upstream communication capability, and a two-way box can't (couldn't) run third party software, thus the catch-22.


----------



## ah30k

elkyss said:


> excerpted from the COX FAQ on cablecards:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first generation of CableCARDs is one-way, meaning the service cannot support two-way interactivity. One-way CableCARDs are not capable of accessing interactive program guides (IPG), Parental Controls, Entertainment on Demand (EOD) services, Pay-Per-View (PPV) movies, or special program events. The cable and consumer electronics industries are currently exploring a two-way technology, but its availability has not been determined.
Click to expand...

There is so much mis-information out there on CableCARDs. It is particularly frustrating to see cable companies themselves spreading the mis-information. COX is wrong on this point!


----------



## milo99

fishnose said:


> That is a truly interesting response, especially since I also received a response from "Connie" of the The Cox Northern Virginia Online Customer Care Team on October 7, 2008 as follows:
> 
> "Thank you for contacting our Cox Northern Virginia Online Customer Care Team.
> 
> At this time, we do not have any updated information regarding the launch of this equipment, however, you may visit the TiVo website, where more information may be provided. In the interim, the cable industry and TiVo Inc. announced that an external adapter is under development that should enable TiVo® products that use CableCARDs to fully access available digital cable channels without a set-top receiver. In their announcement, TiVo predicted release of the new product sometime in 2008.
> 
> While we do not have an exact release date for this adaptor, you may wish to speak with TiVo about their intended launch date.
> 
> For future reference, please direct any "OCAP Compliant" complaints to TiVo. More information in regards to this may be found at http://www.opencable.com .
> 
> As with any breakout technology, many updates and improvements quickly follow, rendering earlier versions either obsolete or severely hindered in a short period of time.
> 
> As a side note: Other local providers are subject to the same limitations. In other words: they too, currently require use of a set-top box to have a full two- way compatibility with their system.
> 
> Thank you for the opportunity to serve you regarding this matter.
> 
> If you need additional information on other Cox products or services on our fiber optic network, please visit our web site at http://www.cox.com/fairfax . We hope that we have been able to provide you with the information you requested. If we have not, or if we can be of any additional service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us again.
> 
> My name is Connie
> 
> Thank you for choosing Cox Communications, Your Friend in the Digital Age!
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> The Cox Northern Virginia Online Customer Care Team"
> 
> It looks like jcaudle's persistence is bearing some fruit and even producing, as in my case, new stock answers to inquiries (and, in his case, even a non-stock answer with various oddly chosen words). Switching to an appropriate SNIDE undertone..., I believe that "we've ensued further investigation" means "I asked some further questions" and "If it appeases you, we may submit your name to TiVo" means "we are hoping that you will stop writing us, if we tell TiVo (or pretend to tell TiVo) that you might be interested in beta testing".
> 
> I have long ago told TiVo and Cox that I would like to test the dongle, USB adapter, tuning adapter, etc. and a contact I had made a Cox is holding my name for just such purposes as well. Let's see how (or if) this comes together.
> 
> BTW, Milo99, we haven't heard anything from jfranklin in a while after he tried to break into the byzantine maze in Cox technical support/customer service. Did you have any open line to him and does he know how to get more info from "Connie"?


i've tried getting in touch with him but haven't heard back. he may not be checking the forum any more. When he called me, it was from the Cox help desk, so who knows if it's even possible to find him that way.

I'm going to write them an email and see if i can get on their tester list. that'd be nice


----------



## fishnose

milo99 said:


> i've tried getting in touch with him but haven't heard back. he may not be checking the forum any more. When he called me, it was from the Cox help desk, so who knows if it's even possible to find him that way.
> 
> I'm going to write them an email and see if i can get on their tester list. that'd be nice


Good luck with the email. It sounds like they have three clearly willing volunteers, I wonder if Cox would care that we at least know of each other over this board. I suppose if they could use it as an excuse, they would!


----------



## milo99

fishnose said:


> Good luck with the email. It sounds like they have three clearly willing volunteers, I wonder if Cox would care that we at least know of each other over this board. I suppose if they could use it as an excuse, they would!


good luck indeed... i've been trying to submit an email via their online form all day. keeps crapping out.  sigghhhhhhh


----------



## milo99

fishnose said:


> That is a truly interesting response, especially since I also received a response from "Connie" of the The Cox Northern Virginia Online Customer Care Team on October 7, 2008 as follows:
> 
> "Thank you for contacting our Cox Northern Virginia Online Customer Care Team.
> 
> At this time, we do not have any updated information regarding the launch of this equipment, however, you may visit the TiVo website, where more information may be provided. In the interim, the cable industry and TiVo Inc. announced that an external adapter is under development that should enable TiVo® products that use CableCARDs to fully access available digital cable channels without a set-top receiver. In their announcement, TiVo predicted release of the new product sometime in 2008.
> 
> While we do not have an exact release date for this adaptor, you may wish to speak with TiVo about their intended launch date.
> 
> For future reference, please direct any "OCAP Compliant" complaints to TiVo. More information in regards to this may be found at http://www.opencable.com .
> 
> As with any breakout technology, many updates and improvements quickly follow, rendering earlier versions either obsolete or severely hindered in a short period of time.
> 
> As a side note: Other local providers are subject to the same limitations. In other words: they too, currently require use of a set-top box to have a full two- way compatibility with their system.
> 
> Thank you for the opportunity to serve you regarding this matter.
> 
> If you need additional information on other Cox products or services on our fiber optic network, please visit our web site at http://www.cox.com/fairfax . We hope that we have been able to provide you with the information you requested. If we have not, or if we can be of any additional service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us again.
> 
> My name is Connie
> 
> Thank you for choosing Cox Communications, Your Friend in the Digital Age!
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> The Cox Northern Virginia Online Customer Care Team"
> 
> It looks like jcaudle's persistence is bearing some fruit and even producing, as in my case, new stock answers to inquiries (and, in his case, even a non-stock answer with various oddly chosen words). Switching to an appropriate SNIDE undertone..., I believe that "we've ensued further investigation" means "I asked some further questions" and "If it appeases you, we may submit your name to TiVo" means "we are hoping that you will stop writing us, if we tell TiVo (or pretend to tell TiVo) that you might be interested in beta testing".
> 
> I have long ago told TiVo and Cox that I would like to test the dongle, USB adapter, tuning adapter, etc. and a contact I had made a Cox is holding my name for just such purposes as well. Let's see how (or if) this comes together.
> 
> BTW, Milo99, we haven't heard anything from jfranklin in a while after he tried to break into the byzantine maze in Cox technical support/customer service. Did you have any open line to him and does he know how to get more info from "Connie"?


well now, i was able to send an email finally, and guess what. I got the same canned response from "Connie" that you did. So I sent her a nice reply stating that that's basically BS, and even gave her some links to read. I'm awaiting a response.


----------



## jcaudle

Maybe Connie isn't a real person, just a name they use for these email inquiries. I had no luck getting answers from regular CSRs....they either didn't understand what SDV was or didn't know what a tuning adapter was. Cox isn't telling them. Connie whoever she is, was a bit cranky in her reply...."if it will appease you" regarding submitting me to beta test the Tuning adapter.


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## milo99

jcaudle said:


> Maybe Connie isn't a real person, just a name they use for these email inquiries. I had no luck getting answers from regular CSRs....they either didn't understand what SDV was or didn't know what a tuning adapter was. Cox isn't telling them. Connie whoever she is, was a bit cranky in her reply...."if it will appease you" regarding submitting me to beta test the Tuning adapter.


and that's what chaffes me. This is part of what i wrote to "Connie":



> I completely appreciate that new technologies take time. I even
> understand that SDV is deployed by other cable companies to combat the
> bandwidth issues. What is not excusable though is the complete lack of
> knowledge and training that Cox tech support has on this issue.
> 
> I have called tech support numerous times and nobody seems to even
> know the impact of SDV to cablecard customers, let alone the solution
> this tuning adapter is supposed to provide. someone needs to start
> dispersing information to your tech support reps SOON.
> 
> if all I have written above is unfamiliar to you, you may want to
> simply Google 'cox tuning adapter' and you will find plenty of info on
> it, including an example of a letter that Cox Phoenix has sent its
> customers telling them that they will be providing these adapters to
> customers for free. (you can click on this link to see the letter a
> customer scanned and uploaded:
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/3210027/Cox-Tuning-Resolver)
> 
> You may even want to read this article that summarizes a lot of the progress:
> http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=159407&site=cdn
> 
> I would appreciate it if someone at Cox NoVa could get some concrete
> information and then pass it on to all the tech support reps that
> answer customer inquiries so that we, your paying customers, can have
> some up to date and *accurate* information.


it's complete BS that their tech support reps have less info than what can be obtained by a simple google search.


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## kiko

I recently send a request to Oceanic about the availability of the Tuning Adapters, since the main timewarner.com page had info about pre-ordering.

Here is their response I got this morning and by the way, Nick seems to be the only "Supervisor" Oceanic has at their call center.

Aloha!

Thank you for your recent inquiry. We expect to have the Tuning Adapter 
available within the next 6 months. I will have someone contact you once
they become available.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to e-mail us again 
or contact our Customer Care Department at 643-2100. When replying to 
this e-mail, please include this message as well as all previous 
correspondence regarding this issue.

Thank You for being an Oceanic Time Warner Cable Customer!


Mahalo, 
Nick S.
Oceanic Time Warner Cable


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## chicagobrownblue

Well, at least the first TVs with builtin tru2way are in the marketplace:

"CHICAGO, IL (October 15, 2008)  Panasonic (NYSE: PC), the consumer electronics industry leader in the development and application of tru2way technology, and Comcast Corporation (NASDAQ: CMCSA, CMCSK), the nation's leading provider of entertainment, information and communications today announced the arrival of the first tru2way VIERA HDTVs at Abt Electronics in Glenview, IL and officially declared the tru2way platform active in Chicago and Denver. "

Full story on the Panasonic website:

http://www.panasonic.com/


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## Revolutionary

So, anybody been nagging their provider? What good is an online forum of enthusiasts if I can't count on a few "calling will be my life's purpose for the foreseeable future" obsessives to be in the mix?


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## milo99

Revolutionary said:


> So, anybody been nagging their provider? What good is an online forum of enthusiasts if I can't count on a few "calling will be my life's purpose for the foreseeable future" obsessives to be in the mix?


i guess i can give you the response Cox NoVA gave to my diatribe:


> Thank you for the information in regards to this adapter.
> 
> If you need additional information on other Cox products or services on
> our fiber optic network, please visit our web site at http://www.cox.com/fairfax
> . We hope that we have been able to provide you with the information you
> requested. If we have not, or if we can be of any additional service to
> you, please do not hesitate to contact us again.
> 
> My name is Pamela
> Thank you for choosing Cox Communications, Your Friend in the Digital
> Age!


Notice it was "pamela" replying....

to which i responded:


> You're welcome for the info. Meantime, can you please put me on some list or on someone's to-do list, to be notified of any news about this adapter that you all may hear? Or ESPECIALLY if you start to roll it out and need testers, i'd happily volunteer to be one.
> 
> I'm guessing that you all may start to hear more about this issue because the FCC just levied a fine to Cox NoVa for your use of SDV and not having a deployed alternative for us cablecard customers (you can see the FCC text here:
> http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2008/DA-08-2299A1.html)
> 
> thanks,


 their reply was interesting:



> Absolutely, your name has already been submitted to the appropriate departments. Additionally, while your request has been forwarded to the appropriate departments, news and additions may be viewed each month, found in the 'What's New For Cox' section of your billing statement. If there are any other suggestions or information relative to this topic, please feel free to let us know. We appreciate you keeping us posted.
> 
> If you need additional information on other Cox products or services on our fiber optic network, please visit our web site at http://www.cox.com/fairfax . We hope that we have been able to provide you with the information you requested. If we have not, or if we can be of any additional service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us again.
> 
> My name is Connie


Connie returns... but meantime, i'm not so sure how good i should feel about the part "*your name has already been submitted to the appropriate departments*". Hopefully, that's not a blacklist of 'complainers'


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## ZeoTiVo

milo99 said:


> i'm not so sure how good i should feel about the part "*your name has already been submitted to the appropriate departments*". Hopefully, that's not a blacklist of 'complainers'


well have a TEch out to you sometime in 2009, late 2009


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## jfranklin

fishnose said:


> BTW, Milo99, we haven't heard anything from jfranklin in a while after he tried to break into the byzantine maze in Cox technical support/customer service. Did you have any open line to him and does he know how to get more info from "Connie"?


I'm still here, just wasn't following this thread. Though I did just subscribe to it. Unfortunately I don't know who the people are that you're getting these emails from, but then they are likely actually in NoVA and I'm in Hampton Roads. Only the technical call center for Virginia is in HR, other local operations are mostly still handled in the specific market.

As for the status of the adapters themselves, I don't know anymore than the rest of you do, actually probably less. Your description of the path to information as a Byzantine maze is fairly accurate. I reach people who are just as curious and just as uninformed as I am, people who don't know what I'm talking about, or people that even if they did know what I was talking about aren't letting go of the company line long enough to actually listen to my questions.

I can't say I've given up, I'm just not sure who to ask anymore.

I will definitely pass on anything I get that I can confirm, and not get fired for. (at this point I don't even have anything to tell you that I could get fired for)


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## aarong50

I signed up for Mid Ohio let you guys know when I hear something.


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## deaddeeds

Got a letter from Cox saying they are switching another 50 channels to SDV and trying to pimp off their digital set boxes with this note at the bottom of the letter.

Notice to Tivo Series 3 and HD owners: Cox, along with others in the cable industry, have worked with TiVo Inc to develop and external device called a Tuning Adapter that will allow Tivo Series 3 and TiVo HD devices using CableCARDs to access channels delivered via SDV. Availability of the Tuning Adapter is expected later this year. At that time additional information will be sent to you. The Tuning Adapter will be provided by Cox at no charge. In the interim, continued access to channels delivered with Cox digital set top receiver.

So basically Cox can't even guarantee that they will get the Tuning Adapters out before this major switch over that includes many channels I actually watch. Why won't FIOS come sooner to my neighborhood???


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## jcaudle

deaddeeds said:


> Got a letter from Cox saying they are switching another 50 channels to SDV and trying to pimp off their digital set boxes with this note at the bottom of the letter.
> 
> Notice to Tivo Series 3 and HD owners: Cox, along with others in the cable industry, have worked with TiVo Inc to develop and external device called a Tuning Adapter that will allow Tivo Series 3 and TiVo HD devices using CableCARDs to access channels delivered via SDV. Availability of the Tuning Adapter is expected later this year. At that time additional information will be sent to you. The Tuning Adapter will be provided by Cox at no charge. In the interim, continued access to channels delivered with Cox digital set top receiver.
> 
> So basically Cox can't even guarantee that they will get the Tuning Adapters out before this major switch over that includes many channels I actually watch. Why won't FIOS come sooner to my neighborhood???


and they don't even offer their own crappy dvr for free as an interim gesture...just a stupid cable box. I feel for you...I also live in Fairfax only a mile from FiOS, but they aren't wiring my subdivision.


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## 4aces4me

If anyone is a Time Warner customer and wants a SDV adapter for their TIVO, just click on the link at the bottom to order. They expect the SDV Adapter to be available by the end of this year. The link is for Albany NY but the order form is for any state.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/Albany/products/cable/sdv/default.html

:up: :up: :up:


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## skaggs

4aces4me said:


> If anyone is a Time Warner customer and wants a SDV adapter for their TIVO, just click on the link at the bottom to order. They expect the SDV Adapter to be available by the end of this year. The link is for Albany NY but the order form is for any state.
> 
> http://www.timewarnercable.com/Albany/products/cable/sdv/default.html
> 
> :up: :up: :up:


Please read the thread before you just go ahead and post information. This same information was posted nearly three weeks ago here.


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## JTalbert

I submitted a complaint to Fairfax County (http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dcccp/) and received a call today. Cox has agreed to postpone the switch till Dec 11 or 12th, cant recall, and they took my address to give to Cox who is suppose to contact me about a tuning adapter. I am hoping this means that Cox plans on getting the tuning adapters out before the new switch date. If you have not yet, and you live in Fairfax, file a complaint. The more people that complain, the better  FFX CNTY said they were working with cox and the FCC on this, nice to see tax payers dollars working


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## sieglinde

I asked my cable company, Mediacom, and they said they weren't planning on providing the adapters.


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## frogger22

JTalbert said:


> I submitted a complaint to Fairfax County (http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dcccp/) and received a call today. Cox has agreed to postpone the switch till Dec 11 or 12th, cant recall, and they took my address to give to Cox who is suppose to contact me about a tuning adapter. I am hoping this means that Cox plans on getting the tuning adapters out before the new switch date. If you have not yet, and you live in Fairfax, file a complaint. The more people that complain, the better  FFX CNTY said they were working with cox and the FCC on this, nice to see tax payers dollars working


There is more info specific to Cox of VA and the TA here:
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6885893#post6885893


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## JTalbert

frogger22 said:


> There is more info specific to Cox of VA and the TA here:
> http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6885893#post6885893


Thanks, I saw that post before and was looking for it and over looked it. Thanks much!


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## Dr_Zoidberg

Ironically, I had to call Cablevision in NJ about problems with the couple of SDV channels I get on my cable box attached to my S2. Turns out the channels I was having issues with are being discontinued. I inquired with their tier 1 and tier 2 guys about the tuning adapters. The tier 1 guy said "they'll be available for purchase in 4Q 2008" but he had no further info. The tier 2 guy had less info.

I'm disappointed.


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## berkshires

is there a thread for cablevison(Bronx )?


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## KariInWonderland

Dr_Zoidberg said:


> Ironically, I had to call Cablevision in NJ about problems with the couple of SDV channels I get on my cable box attached to my S2. Turns out the channels I was having issues with are being discontinued. I inquired with their tier 1 and tier 2 guys about the tuning adapters. The tier 1 guy said "they'll be available for purchase in 4Q 2008" but he had no further info. The tier 2 guy had less info.
> 
> I'm disappointed.


What channels are they discontinuing? And they've been saying the same thing about adapters forever now...I had one girl on the phone read me the same info that I found online! They're never going to get these adapters!


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## 188

we just got an announcement in Maine that they will be sending them out in the next few weeks, so there is some hope.


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## seggers

I'm gonna post this in a few threads, I'm so happy.

I just got off the phone with Buffalo TW and they are following up on calls for TAs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

He did mention something about Jan/Feb  for an install, but at least the email system worked! 

He asked if I had a TiVo, what model it was and what sw level it had (interestingly, he wanted at least 11).

So they are coming for those of us in WNY! We can finally get rid of that crappy TW DVR! 

Seggers


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## JerseyRU

KariInWonderland said:


> What channels are they discontinuing? And they've been saying the same thing about adapters forever now...I had one girl on the phone read me the same info that I found online! They're never going to get these adapters!


MOJO and HDnews gone now, soon (January sometime) all Voom channels will be going away.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/cablevision_digital/messages/65592?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

Article says they are going to be replaced by something else, which means we still need the SDV adapter. Get moving Cablevision!


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## Dr_Zoidberg

JerseyRU said:


> Article says they are going to be replaced by something else, which means we still need the SDV adapter. Get moving Cablevision!


That's pretty much what I heard. The HDnews channel is already off the air in my neck of the woods.


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