# 8 tuner Tivo?



## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

Dish Network announced their 16 tuner at CES. I'd be happy with even an 8 tuner Tivo. Is this possible with the current cable card spec? If not, could multiple cable cards be used? What about OTA?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Probably not. Cisco makes an 8 tuner CableCARD, but I don't think Motorola does. And cable companies are only required by law to enable as many tuners on retail cards as their own flagship DVRs. So unless we see a cable DVR with 8 tuners it's unlikely we'll see CaleCARDs with 8 tuner support.

As for OTA... probably not there either. The reason the Roamio Basic and Bolt are limited to 4 tuners is because chips don't exist to tune more the 4 ATSC channels at a time. So they'd have to use two chips, and all the associated hardware, to make an 8 tuner OTA only DVR. I doubt there is much demand for that, especially at the price point they'd need to charge.


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## lesliew (Oct 11, 2003)

kturcotte said:


> Dish Network announced their 16 tuner at CES. I'd be happy with even an 8 tuner Tivo. Is this possible with the current cable card spec? If not, could multiple cable cards be used? What about OTA?


Now sports bar mode - that was cool


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

There is an 8-tuner cablecard, but nobody distributes it. At this point (with cablecard on the way out) I don't think anybody would. Using multiple cards could work in theory. Tivo's done it before with the old single-stream cards.

OTA has no fixed limitation other than what the maker chooses to add to the box.

What's possible and likely are two different things of course.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah maybe if the Mega ever turns into a real product it will use two cards and have 12 tuners.


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## GoodSpike (Dec 17, 2001)

Wouldn't signal strength be an issue at some point with that many tuners, or is the internal split somehow different than a splitter?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The path after the split would be short so that makes it a little different then a split in your house feeding multiple rooms. Also the Roamio Pro has an internal amplifier to boost the signal before it's split. (although in some cases that can cause more problems then it solves)


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Hopper 3 confirmed that it is a _*TRUE 16 tuner*_ DVR. Meaning only ONE tuner needed for the optional PTAT leaving 15 tuners free, not the phony-baloney "# of programs recorded/# of tuners" confusion of the previous Hoppers. FWIW, all Hoppers at all times use _*ONE*_ tuner to provide Big 4 broadcasters and any combination of them to any TV/viewer at the same time. It works like the PTAT except that all viewers at any time can view a different or same Big 4 broadcaster at any time and the system uses only *ONE* tuner. Also, H3 supports *7* TV's for independent viewing. Current OTA USB tuner supported, making for a 17 tuner DVR. PTAT + 15 sat tuners + OTA tuner = 20 shows recorded simultaneously. The idea is that this DVR would end tuner/timer conflicts.

I don't think H3 is relevant to TiVo so much, but the pressure is really on DirecTV. Of course, any enhancements to TiVo is a good thing. It is nice to see competition at work to brings us such cutting edge DVR's like TiVo, Genie, and Hopper. Cable DVR's are still junk by comparison.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

Series3Sub said:


> Hopper 3 confirmed that it is a _*TRUE 16 tuner*_ DVR. Meaning only ONE tuner needed for PTAT leaving 15 tuners free. No the phony-baloney "# of programs recorded/# of tuners" confusion of the previous Hoppers. Also supports 7 TV's. Current OTA USB tuner supported, making for a 17 tuner DVR. PTAT + 15 sat tuners + OTA tuner = 20 show recorded simultaneously. The idea is that this DVR would end tuner/timer conflicts.
> 
> I don't think H3 is relevant to TiVo, but the pressure is really on DirecTV. Of course, any enhancements to TiVo is a good thing. It is nice to see competition at work to brings us such cutting edge DVR's like TiVo, Genie, and Hopper. Cable DVR's are still junk by comparison.


I would HOPE it ends tuner/timer conflicts! lol I can't picture needing to record more than 16 channels at the time! I have hit the 4 tuner limit on my Roamio a few times, so a few more would definitely be nice.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Not sure alot more tuners will come to cable because of VoD.

Even Tivo is mixing in VoD with your recordings. Comcast X1 is doing something along those lines as well.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

If I ever went back to pay tv, it would be with Dish. No more conflicts!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Not sure alot more tuners will come to cable because of VoD.
> 
> Even Tivo is mixing in VoD with your recordings. Comcast X1 is doing something along those lines as well.


VOD has nothing to do with it, at least on TiVos end. I'm sure if there were CableCARDs that supports 8 or 16 tuners they would make a box that supported it.

Now since the number of tuners required to be supported by CableCARD is directly correlated to the maximum number of tuners their own boxes support, cable companies could be looking at VOD and saying 6 is plenty. I'm not sure they have an incentive to offer people more tuners then that.


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## GoodSpike (Dec 17, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> VOD has nothing to do with it,


I think he's saying that with VOD there's less need for a lot of tuners. I think that's questionable since my preference is to watch stuff recorded onto a hard drive over streaming.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That might be true for recording, but with the way TiVo borrows tuners for Minis I think bigger families would prefer to have a few more. Enough so they can watch live TV in every room AND still record 3-4 things would probably be ideal. 

Who knows maybe we will see a Mega someday that takes 2 cards and has 12 tuners. That would be more then enough for even the biggest family I'd think.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

kturcotte said:


> I would HOPE it ends tuner/timer conflicts! lol I can't picture needing to record more than 16 channels at the time! I have hit the 4 tuner limit on my Roamio a few times, so a few more would definitely be nice.


Yeah, 16 is ridiculous (in a good way).

I have even hit the 6 tuner limit of my Roamio a few times, *due to my own padding* (since I pad virtually EVERYTHING on both ends, including late night talk shows that are on the same channel right after each other)..

But I technically have 10 tuners live already, Premiere 4 + Roamio Plus. I say "technically" since I moved the VAST majority of OPs to my Roamio Plus, and the P4 is sort of back up.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

GoodSpike said:


> I think he's saying that with VOD there's less need for a lot of tuners. I think that's questionable since my preference is to watch stuff recorded onto a hard drive over streaming.


IF HBO Go comes to Tivo then who really needs to record anything on HBO?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> IF HBO Go comes to Tivo then who really needs to record anything on HBO?


People who have data caps on their internet service or people who want to be able to watch an HBO show in QuickMode. Ironically, I like watching Real Time in QuickMode. I also don't really like having to launch an app and wait for it to load or video to buffer, so I prefer watching recordings over streaming in general anyways.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> IF HBO Go comes to Tivo then who really needs to record anything on HBO?


Everybody without unlimited data, usually meaning those that don't want to pay for unlimited data. Are markets with data caps unusual in your opinion? I get close to my 300GB cap without streaming anything I can record using TiVo, if I didn't I would have to pay $35/month to remove the cap. I thought many millions of consumers are in the same situation.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Chris Gerhard said:


> Everybody without unlimited data, usually meaning those that don't want to pay for unlimited data. Are markets with data caps unusual in your opinion? I get close to my 300GB cap without streaming anything I can record using TiVo, if I didn't I would have to pay $35/month to remove the cap. I thought many millions of consumers are in the same situation.


Comcast is the key MVPD with a cap.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

mattack said:


> Yeah, 16 is ridiculous (in a good way).
> 
> I have even hit the 6 tuner limit of my Roamio a few times, *due to my own padding* (since I pad virtually EVERYTHING on both ends, including late night talk shows that are on the same channel right after each other)..
> 
> But I technically have 10 tuners live already, Premiere 4 + Roamio Plus. I say "technically" since I moved the VAST majority of OPs to my Roamio Plus, and the P4 is sort of back up.


16 tuners may not be ridiculous considering that TiVo cannot use the same tuner for automatic overlap on channels such as the DirecTV can. In essence, if you were to pad 1 extra minute on both sides, 16 would be cut down to 8 tuners quickly.

The DirecTV automatic padding /use of 1 tuner for overlapping shows would be 1 of my 2 major requests for TiVo, which I am quite surprised it does not already have.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

kturcotte said:


> Dish Network announced their 16 tuner at CES. I'd be happy with even an 8 tuner Tivo. Is this possible with the current cable card spec? If not, could multiple cable cards be used? What about OTA?


As relatively new to TiVo, I have no inside information, but reading the fine nuances of the Q&A last October, several things stick out to me:

1) Bolt Design and 4 tuners is admitted to be something to stand out for non-Tivo Subs now. Admits users here are different and something is coming. With that said, and note Bolt will not fit in AV installs with its quirky design, sounds as "Pro" model will not be a Bolt (which I would applaud with its 2.5" hard drives and, well, quirky design).

2) With 6 channels effective max of CableCards in the Wild, along with some things that were answered, it sounds as if there might be Software that will run 2 or more 6 Tuner units as one...say in Master and Slave configuration. In other words, schedule as much as you want, as long as there are tuners available on the primary or secondary TiVos, they will distribute recordings automatically.

As I wondered why TiVo does not do that now, I may be reading to much into a specific question and answer, but it sure sounds that may be reality (and quite frankly, that would be 1 of the 2 key features I would like to see).

3) Was moving programming between 2 Roamios last week. Atleast on FiOS, anything from Fox (Fox News, Fox Business, FXN, Nat Geo etc) would NOT transfer to the other TiVo. It was coded as transfer prohibited. Same for the Premium Movie Channels.

First, I cannot believe that Fox News et al are coded correctly, but regardless. According to the law, those channels should allow to transfer (Copy Once) PROVIDING the original is deleted. Clearly TiVo does not delete the Original. However, there should be an option to do that.

4) And finally, I do not see it as a good sign for the "Pro" model because nothing has been shown on the CES Floor. Atleast that I am aware of.

TiVo released a Press Release with what was new at their booth 2 days ago (1/5/2016 - TiVo Expands the Boundaries of Personal TV With Amazon Fire TV and the Latest Mobile Updates at CES 2016 Company Located at Booth #7904 at the Las Vegas Convention Center) just like Dish did and no new models were hinted at or included in the release.

That is a bad sign to me.

Although, a Master / Slave setup with 2 or more Bolts, a Bolt with 2 or more Roamio Pro, or even multiple Roamio Pros (as noted above in #2) would make me happier than a new "Pro" at this time.

Again, I have no inside info - just using the evidence (and postings from TiVO CMO) while reading between the lines.

After all, I am just SomeRandomIdiot.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Tivo almost never gives any new retail info during CES. You are reading way more into their silence on the pro model than there is. For example, Bolt was not on the floor last year, was it?

Tivo has gone to a single point model, I would not treat the Mega announcement of changing that model. Tivo has had a single box handle multiple cablecards starting about 10 years ago, so that is the same thing.

Fox has applied this flag for about a year now, search the threads. A move function would be nice, Tivo has a form of that already for iOS downloads. But, with their single box approach, I would not count on it ever coming to retail.


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## HobokenSkier (Oct 14, 2015)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As relatively new to TiVo, I have no inside information, but reading the fine nuances of the Q&A last October, several things stick out to me:
> 
> 1) Bolt Design and 4 tuners is admitted to be something to stand out for non-Tivo Subs now. Admits users here are different and something is coming. With that said, and note Bolt will not fit in AV installs with its quirky design, sounds as "Pro" model will not be a Bolt (which I would applaud with its 2.5" hard drives and, well, quirky design).
> 
> ...


Your point 1 is a non issue to 99% of pro installs. Roku, ATV, SONOS are quirky designs if standard is a 19in 1RU.

You put it on a shelf and if feeling glam get a laser cut front panel. Middle atlantic already has the TCD849500 (AKA BOLT) in the database.

Even most AVRs don't come with a rack ear kit option.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Chris Gerhard said:


> Everybody without unlimited data, usually meaning those that don't want to pay for unlimited data. Are markets with data caps unusual in your opinion? I get close to my 300GB cap without streaming anything I can record using TiVo, if I didn't I would have to pay $35/month to remove the cap. I thought many millions of consumers are in the same situation.


But we're looking at where things are headed. Not where they are today.

And your argument that you're already bumping up against your cap, because you're watching all this streaming video, really only strengthens the point that VoD makes more tuners in a cable dvr much less likely and much less needed.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> But we're looking at where things are headed. Not where they are today.
> 
> And your argument that you're already bumping up against your cap, because you're watching all this streaming video, really only strengthens the point that VoD makes more tuners in a cable dvr much less likely and much less needed.


I don't need more tuners but I sure need to use the tuners I have to record content I can record without using data from the internet. My response was to your claim that who needs to record HBO if HBO Go is added to TiVo, I do and I assume so do many others.

If things are headed to no caps without paying more for broadband internet access, fine but I don't have a crystal ball that makes that clear to me and I don't expect that to happen.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

HobokenSkier said:


> Your point 1 is a non issue to 99% of pro installs. Roku, ATV, SONOS are quirky designs if standard is a 19in 1RU.
> 
> You put it on a shelf and if feeling glam get a laser cut front panel. Middle atlantic already has the TCD849500 (AKA BOLT) in the database.
> 
> Even most AVRs don't come with a rack ear kit option.


Not talking about a rack kit, which, custom installers custom make for all AVRs.

Talking about plain old flat - not a quirky design that does not allow equipment to put on top of each other.

Again, re-read the comments from TiVo CMO about why Bolt is shaped the way it is and who it was aimed at. I am only summarizing what he stated and inferred for larger units than the Basic Roamio.

Then again, I am just Some Random Idiot.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I don't need more tuners but I sure need to use the tuners I have to record content I can record without using data from the internet. My response was to your claim that who needs to record HBO if HBO Go is added to TiVo, I do and I assume so do many others.
> 
> If things are headed to no caps without paying more for broadband internet access, fine but I don't have a crystal ball that makes that clear to me and I don't expect that to happen.


Even CEO of Verizon stated that no-cap was not a sustainable model for FiOS in the last 30 days.


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## HobokenSkier (Oct 14, 2015)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Not talking about a rack kit, which, custom installers custom make for all AVRs.
> 
> Talking about plain old flat - not a quirky design that does not allow equipment to put on top of each other.
> 
> ...


But the 19in black boxes under the tv have gone the way of the arc and whatever you are installing needs shelves.

The ATV or Roku have flat bases but are not condusive to putting on top of one another. Unless you are designing an Egyptian pyramid.

But yes, I do see, and it was alluded to for a 6 tuner rack / pro friendly design. Maybe even with a rack ear screw kit.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Even CEO of Verizon stated that no-cap was not a sustainable model for FiOS in the last 30 days.


I have to believe he is right since I am not seeing anything that would make me believe otherwise. Paying a premium for a no-cap plan is sustainable but that option is not going to be cheap.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

the hopper 3 sounds like an attempt by dish to lure high dollar directv accounts, and increase their arpu.

it'd better include a sizeable hard drive, or the tuners will simply be continuously overwriting unviewed recordings.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I don't need more tuners but I sure need to use the tuners I have to record content I can record without using data from the internet. My response was to your claim that who needs to record HBO if HBO Go is added to TiVo, I do and I assume so do many others.
> 
> If things are headed to no caps without paying more for broadband internet access, fine but I don't have a crystal ball that makes that clear to me and I don't expect that to happen.


The point of that statement was to illustrate the decreased need for more tuners in cable dvrs.

And when you point out that you're already bumping up against your data limit. It doesn't illustrate to me how many people need to start finding ways to use less data.

It illustrates to me the growing demand for VoD. The growing demand for more data. And as result, the direction data caps will go.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

kturcotte said:


> I would HOPE it ends tuner/timer conflicts! lol I can't picture needing to record more than 16 channels at the time! I have hit the 4 tuner limit on my Roamio a few times, so a few more would definitely be nice.


Right, but the Sports Bar mode that will put, at release, 4 different channels on your screen, to later be increased to 6 channels on your TV, also plays into the necessity of 16 tuners.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

mattack said:


> Yeah, 16 is ridiculous (in a good way).
> 
> I have even hit the 6 tuner limit of my Roamio a few times, *due to my own padding* (since I pad virtually EVERYTHING on both ends, including late night talk shows that are on the same channel right after each other)..
> 
> But I technically have 10 tuners live already, Premiere 4 + Roamio Plus. I say "technically" since I moved the VAST majority of OPs to my Roamio Plus, and the P4 is sort of back up.


The one thing H3 offers is handling all this as a single system, not running between TiVo's. I, too, have a multiple TiVo home and managing all the timers is bit of a pain, and TiVo Online does not make it easier necessarily, especially since TiVo has NEUTERED my S3 648's and HDXL from online management. Nothing substitutes for ME being at the box. By TiVo kicking all S3 models to the curb as far as online management, TiVo has inadvertently degrade the TiVo experience compared to an H3. Add to that the crazy new pricing for the Bolt, and there may be some legacy TiVo subs who will figure moving from Cable to Sat without their current legacy TiVo may not be that bad, after all. I think it was really very poor form of TiVo to cut all S3 models from any online management. No excuse for it, as there were reasons for YouTube and Amazon being ripped away.

The only thing that has not been mentioned about the H3 is any form of built-in profiles or built-in way to segregate different household members recordings. One can use the Custom Folder option (something TiVo should have provided YEARS ago) to create folders for each member of the household, but that is not the ideal solution.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> The DirecTV automatic padding /use of 1 tuner for overlapping shows would be 1 of my 2 major requests for TiVo, which I am quite surprised it does not already have.


We had it for a while. Unfortunately it didn't merge the cut points correctly which somehow caused a problem that would freeze your TiVo for about 30 seconds, and sometimes crash it completely. (It turns out chopping up video streams is much harder than it sounds.) TiVo "fixed" the problem by quietly withdrawing overlap recording.

On Sundays and Tuesdays I greatly miss that feature.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

ej42137 said:


> We had it for a while. Unfortunately it didn't merge the cut points correctly which somehow caused a problem that would freeze your TiVo for about 30 seconds, and sometimes crash it completely. (It turns out chopping up video streams is much harder than it sounds.) TiVo "fixed" the problem by quietly withdrawing overlap recording.
> 
> On Sundays and Tuesdays I greatly miss that feature.


As DirecTV has done it seamlessly for years now, TiVo must be admitting that DirecTV Engineers are better than TiVo's Engineers when it comes to DVR Functionality.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

With 6 tuners I never run into conflicts. That and I have other Tivos set to record the filler/kids show season passes. Since they all stream-from-disk to each other there's little need to worry which unit is doing the recording anymore.


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## GoodSpike (Dec 17, 2001)

trip1eX said:


> IF HBO Go comes to Tivo then who really needs to record anything on HBO?


I guess it depends on what HBO Go looks like.

If it looks like the Netflix app, probably no one.
If it looks like the Amazon app, probably a few. (FF is not as nice)
If it looks like Xfinity on Demand, probably everyone. (FF doesn't exist and the picture sucks)


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As DirecTV has done it seamlessly for years now, TiVo must be admitting that DirecTV Engineers are better than TiVo's Engineers when it comes to DVR Functionality.


We're talking different hardware, different code bases, and who knows whether the developers who originally worked on the product are still around - so the challenges are unique.

So hard to say without a lot of inside knowledge, but the idea of tossing out a feature that may make the product unstable or corrupt recordings isn't a bad one.

Personally, I've only needed to extend a couple of shows, and with 6 tuners, no conflicts so far. My DirecTv DVR's definitely benefited from automatic overlapped recording because they only had 2 tuners each, but in some cases it didn't get the job done because it had switch channels.

Now what would be a huge feature is if the DVR could automatically adjust to the start end end time of the programs so no matter what happens it snags the program. Also if it could find in-market games rather than record a channel which is blocking an out of market game.


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## NickTheGreat (Aug 31, 2015)

Series3Sub said:


> Right, but the Sports Bar mode that will put, at release, 4 different channels on your screen, to later be increased to 6 channels on your TV, also plays into the necessity of 16 tuners.


I think Sports bar mode sounds awesome, and I'm not sure why!


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

NickTheGreat said:


> I think Sports bar mode sounds awesome, and I'm not sure why!


No real Sports Bar will put in Dish with NFL ST being exclusive to DirecTV.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

TiVo should do a 12-tuner model that's made for rackmounting and has 12TB of storage. That would be awesome!

This is an interesting move by DISH, although DISH is typically a value-oriented service, where DirecTV is premium, so it's a bit out of character. I think DirecTV will offer something more than 5 tuners on Genie, as they are rolling out SWiM 13 and soon SWiM 21 LNBs.



> The ATV or Roku have flat bases but are not condusive to putting on top of one another. Unless you are designing an Egyptian pyramid.


My Roku fits nicely on my ATV.


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## HobokenSkier (Oct 14, 2015)

Bigg said:


> TiVo should do a 12-tuner model that's made for rackmounting and has 12TB of storage. That would be awesome!
> 
> This is an interesting move by DISH, although DISH is typically a value-oriented service, where DirecTV is premium, so it's a bit out of character. I think DirecTV will offer something more than 5 tuners on Genie, as they are rolling out SWiM 13 and soon SWiM 21 LNBs.
> 
> My Roku fits nicely on my ATV.


I had

Popbox v8
Roku
Sdv
BD
Premiere
AVR

in a stack at one point

Just needed to add some kindling to the sides.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As DirecTV has done it seamlessly for years now, TiVo must be admitting that DirecTV Engineers are better than TiVo's Engineers when it comes to DVR Functionality.


What admit? Except for one ambiguous line in a release note, TiVo never announced or committed to the feature, it just appeared and then quietly went away two releases later with no explanation or apology.

DirectTV has a much larger install base to amortize the cost of their engineers on, and those engineers have to continuously and actively deal with video stream changes in the satellites. Yet their user interace sux compared to TiVo.

I'm sure if TiVo would just contract out the video problem to Dan203 he could fix it right up.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HobokenSkier said:


> I had
> 
> Popbox v8
> Roku
> ...


Yeah, I had a different stack with a DVDO EDGE, a VCR, an HDMI switch, a composite switch, and a composite to HDMI converter. I realized I don't use half the stuff, so I can scale back. I also don't really need FireTV AND Roku AND Apple TV AND Roku lol. But I do like having options!


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

ej42137 said:


> What admit? Except for one ambiguous line in a release note, TiVo never announced or committed to the feature, it just appeared and then quietly went away two releases later with no explanation or apology.
> 
> DirectTV has a much larger install base to amortize the cost of their engineers on, and those engineers have to continuously and actively deal with video stream changes in the satellites. Yet their user interace sux compared to TiVo.
> 
> I'm sure if TiVo would just contract out the video problem to Dan203 he could fix it right up.


Based on your assumption of larger user base = better code/equipment, then TiVo might as well declare Bankruptcy now. As DVRs are TiVo ONLY product, then it better be the best DVR on the market, because they are certainly NOT the most affordable!


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Based on your *assumption of larger user base = better code/equipment*, then TiVo might as well declare Bankruptcy now. As DVRs are TiVo ONLY product, then it better be the best DVR on the market, because they are certainly NOT the most affordable!


You should try reading my post. I said exactly the opposite.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Based on your assumption of larger user base = better code/equipment, then TiVo might as well declare Bankruptcy now. As DVRs are TiVo ONLY product, then it better be the best DVR on the market, because they are certainly NOT the most affordable!


They would be if they didn't have their MSO partners. Atlantic Broadband is rolling them out now. It's small additions here and there through MSOs that have built most of their user base over the past few years.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> They would be if they didn't have their MSO partners. Atlantic Broadband is rolling them out now. It's small additions here and there through MSOs that have built most of their user base over the past few years.


Agree, that is the only thing saving their butt.

But as seen with DirecTV Tivo units, if it is not a state of the art DVR, then it's going nowhere.

If TiVo units are not the best in the Industry, TiVo is doomed.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

I know I got all excited for a "More tuner" DVR, but now that I've thought about it, I'm surprised at this. I'd like to see them move AWAY from tuners. Almost all of the channels now have apps that allow either live tv, on demand, or both. Wouldn't surprise me to see Directv, Dish Network, and cable companies move to just a simple box with a bunch of apps on it, or even eliminate the box all together and go to a Roku and/or smart tv app. Roku has a 4k box out. Make the apps have options for video quality. Make it "Auto" be default for the most that don't know how or don't want to play with that setting, and then also allow us to manually select resolution(s). For those that don't have really fast internet, this could work fine. Imagine how much money Directv and Dish Network could save if they didn't have to develop, launch, and maintain satellites, as well as receivers and dishes. Just the app and maybe a simple box that has an HDMI output, ethernet, power and 802.11ac. And yes, I do realize this would pretty much put Tivo out of business, but honestly, I see that as an eventuality anyway.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

kturcotte said:


> I know I got all excited for a "More tuner" DVR, but now that I've thought about it, I'm surprised at this. I'd like to see them move AWAY from tuners. Almost all of the channels now have apps that allow either live tv, on demand, or both. Wouldn't surprise me to see Directv, Dish Network, and cable companies move to just a simple box with a bunch of apps on it, or even eliminate the box all together and go to a Roku and/or smart tv app. Roku has a 4k box out. Make the apps have options for video quality. Make it "Auto" be default for the most that don't know how or don't want to play with that setting, and then also allow us to manually select resolution(s). For those that don't have really fast internet, this could work fine. Imagine how much money Directv and Dish Network could save if they didn't have to develop, launch, and maintain satellites, as well as receivers and dishes. Just the app and maybe a simple box that has an HDMI output, ethernet, power and 802.11ac. And yes, I do realize this would pretty much put Tivo out of business, but honestly, I see that as an eventuality anyway.


If the Government had decided long ago to have Internet access be a regulated monopoly and licensed individual companies throughout the country to provide the service with a mandate to maintain open access Gb fiber to everyone's home/business, there would be no need for any cable or satellite companies or even local OTA broadcasts. Everything could be delivered via ip to the end consumer via individual subscription directly from the broadcaster.

But instead we have the mess we have - and if you think the Comcasts of the world are going to allow full blown ip cable services to be sold and delivered via their Internet lines without being paid allot more than they are now - well I have some swamp land that would make a great investment for ya.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Interesting take. Who would take on the cost?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Agree, that is the only thing saving their butt.
> 
> But as seen with DirecTV Tivo units, if it is not a state of the art DVR, then it's going nowhere.
> 
> If TiVo units are not the best in the Industry, TiVo is doomed.


I agree. But if you look at small MSOs that don't have the capital to spend tens of millions of dollars developing their own entire platform like X1, the TiVo is far and away better than iGuide, and they've got several MSOs that are happy with them. The biggest threat would be if Comcast starts licensing X1 to smaller MSOs, but I don't think they are really interested in that business.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

kturcotte said:


> I know I got all excited for a "More tuner" DVR, but now that I've thought about it, I'm surprised at this. I'd like to see them move AWAY from tuners. Almost all of the channels now have apps that allow either live tv, on demand, or both.


Unless there's a way to get everything without commercials, I say absolutely NOT.

(I say this as someone who uses On Demand, with forced (but usually less than when originally broadcast) commercials, infrequently but regularly enough to appreciate it.. That's me doing it willingly though, usually to watch the HD version of something I recorded originally in SD due to disk space..)


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Bigg said:


> TiVo should do a 12-tuner model that's made for rackmounting and has 12TB of storage. That would be awesome!
> 
> This is an interesting move by DISH, although DISH is typically a value-oriented service, where DirecTV is premium, so it's a bit out of character. I think DirecTV will offer something more than 5 tuners on Genie, as they are rolling out SWiM 13 and soon SWiM 21 LNBs.
> 
> My Roku fits nicely on my ATV.


Let me say that DirecTV is a fine service with great engineers, and there was no doubt that DTV equipment and interface was superior to Dish--until about 2003. Yes, Dish is the value product that had the "Mickey Mouse" interface and graphics from 1996 (starting 2 years after DirecTV), but to my suprise the Echostar engineers and, perhaps, Dish's position as #2 sat service spurred them on, resulted in the best tech, DVR's, interfaces and features of ANY DVR from that point forward, and still the case today with the Hopper being always superior to the Genie and now the R3. A lot of firsts for Dish DVR's including two tuners, etc. TiVo, RePlayTV, and Dish were the very first DVR's with the DishPlayer 7100 having an interface and experience as good as TiVo's, but TiVo the best back on 1999. However, the software for the DishPlayer was owned and controled by Microsoft, and they pretty much hobbled that DVR, and then a short time later, Microsoft came out with its own DVR. Vowing never to be dependant on a 3rd party for DVR again, Dish started its in-house DVR which was greatly _inferior_ to TiVo of any other DVR out there at the time. But come around 2003, Dish blew away everyone else.

As for TiVo, they started with such an elegant and freidnly design that was so well thought out, there wasn't much to improve for some years. Everybody else had to catch up to what a TiVo's was. Then the management changed at TiVo and it seemed to lose its innovation until more recently.

No doubt DirecTV always felt it should have the best products out there, but Dish probably knew that if they had any hope of competing, they had to have even better (the best) products. The old saying, "We're #2; we try harder" was adopted by Avis, and I think Dish's continual innovation is born from this and still being a foudner's company, a personal demad of founder Charlie Ergen. I couldn't believe that I was a subscriber to the #2 sat company and had superior tech in my home compared to DTV. Of course, that can be subjective, I know, but I was most often dissappointed that DirecTV never go superior products out the door. They very good experience products out the door and into homes that certainly deserve praise, but not the best.

I just hope AT&T does not eventually diminish DirecTV because we all need good options and healty competition.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> I agree. But if you look at small MSOs that don't have the capital to spend tens of millions of dollars developing their own entire platform like X1, the TiVo is far and away better than iGuide, and they've got several MSOs that are happy with them. The biggest threat would be if Comcast starts licensing X1 to smaller MSOs, but I don't think they are really interested in that business.


Comcast IS LICENSING X1 to other MSOs. That was their plan all along.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Series3Sub said:


> Let me say that DirecTV is a fine service with great engineers, and there was no doubt that DTV equipment and interface was superior to Dish--until about 2003. Yes, Dish is the value product that had the "Mickey Mouse" interface and graphics from 1996 (starting 2 years after DirecTV), but to my suprise the Echostar engineers and, perhaps, Dish's position as #2 sat service spurred them on, resulted in the best tech, DVR's, interfaces and features of ANY DVR from that point forward, and still the case today with the Hopper being always superior to the Genie and now the R3. A lot of firsts for Dish DVR's including two tuners, etc. TiVo, RePlayTV, and Dish were the very first DVR's with the DishPlayer 7100 having an interface and experience as good as TiVo's, but TiVo the best back on 1999. However, the software for the DishPlayer was owned and controled by Microsoft, and they pretty much hobbled that DVR, and then a short time later, Microsoft came out with its own DVR. Vowing never to be dependant on a 3rd party for DVR again, Dish started its in-house DVR which was greatly _inferior_ to TiVo of any other DVR out there at the time. But come around 2003, Dish blew away everyone else.
> 
> As for TiVo, they started with such an elegant and freidnly design that was so well thought out, there wasn't much to improve for some years. Everybody else had to catch up to what a TiVo's was. Then the management changed at TiVo and it seemed to lose its innovation until more recently.
> 
> ...


I agree. The Hopper is better than the HR / Genie series from DTV. But given HD-Lite from Dish, not to mention better quality on the technical transmission side (Dish Streams are full of errors), DirecTV has a better VIEWING experience.

And yes, very sad TiVo did not keep up their lead. I had the old DirecTV HR10-250 10+ years ago, with Tivo.

I was shocked last Quarter when activating my TiVos to find that they had really not improved the core DVR much since then - while Dish and DirecTV have gone full speed ahead.


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## agredon (Jul 26, 2011)

Right now, I have 8 TiVo Tuners (plus 7 WMC Tuners which I use to duplicate record the shows I want to archive to get them in WTV format). I almost never use all of the tuners. Now, having 8-12 tuners on a central device would be nice so that I don't have to manually divide up my One Passes between multiple DVRs. Something I could mount on my server rack and stream to Minis in each room would be perfect, but not if it costs $5,000 (TiVo Mega).


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## randian (Jan 15, 2014)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Comcast IS LICENSING X1 to other MSOs. That was their plan all along.


They must be doing it super cheap then, because the X1 is terrible compared to a TiVo.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

randian said:


> They must be doing it super cheap then, because the X1 is terrible compared to a TiVo.


X1 is terrible period. It is a cloud Dvr without the benefit of the cloud. All activity happens both locally and in the cloud (including trick play) and the whole system bogs down or can even halt.


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## randian (Jan 15, 2014)

TonyD79 said:


> X1 is terrible period. It is a cloud Dvr without the benefit of the cloud. All activity happens both locally and in the cloud (including trick play) and the whole system bogs down or can even halt.


Yes, I've seen that happen with a friend's X1. It looks pretty though which hooks a lot of people who don't take the time to actually use it before bringing it home and find out how hard it is to use. Plus a lot of Comcast's bundles include an X1 so if you get a TiVo you're paying double for DVR service.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

randian said:


> Yes, I've seen that happen with a friend's X1. It looks pretty though which hooks a lot of people who don't take the time to actually use it before bringing it home and find out how hard it is to use. Plus a lot of Comcast's bundles include an X1 so if you get a TiVo you're paying double for DVR service.


It happened at my brothers house last year. Couldn't even watch live tv without breakdowns and glitches because the box wanted to talk to the mothership even when we didn't do anything. (He was having connectivity problems.) Don't even try to change the channel when the system is not communicating.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Probably not. Cisco makes an 8 tuner CableCARD, but I don't think Motorola does. And cable companies are only required by law to enable as many tuners on retail cards as their own flagship DVRs. So unless we see a cable DVR with 8 tuners it's unlikely we'll see CaleCARDs with 8 tuner support.
> 
> As for OTA... probably not there either. The reason the Roamio Basic and Bolt are limited to 4 tuners is because chips don't exist to tune more the 4 ATSC channels at a time. So they'd have to use two chips, and all the associated hardware, to make an 8 tuner OTA only DVR. I doubt there is much demand for that, especially at the price point they'd need to charge.


it would have to come from Arris not Moto


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Series3Sub said:


> No doubt DirecTV always felt it should have the best products out there, but Dish probably knew that if they had any hope of competing, they had to have even better (the best) products. The old saying, "We're #2; we try harder" was adopted by Avis, and I think Dish's continual innovation is born from this and still being a foudner's company, a personal demad of founder Charlie Ergen. I couldn't believe that I was a subscriber to the #2 sat company and had superior tech in my home compared to DTV. Of course, that can be subjective, I know, but I was most often dissappointed that DirecTV never go superior products out the door. They very good experience products out the door and into homes that certainly deserve praise, but not the best.


Note that I am somewhat biased, as DISH doesn't compete in my market (Hartford-New Haven) or our state's other DMA, NYC. They will install a dish, but they don't have any of our sports channels, so they are basically a big joke around here.

That being said, DISH's picture quality is inferior to cable, and especially DirecTV. Their channel lineup is far inferior, their sports are far inferior. You can't compete on DVR alone. With a few exceptions for a few RSN carriage issues, DirecTV is the dominant player in content and video quality. I've almost never seen a high-end home theater installed with DISH. A good chunk of them, including virtually all of the ones that watch sports on their giant screens, use DirecTV.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Comcast IS LICENSING X1 to other MSOs. That was their plan all along.


Agreed. But they are not going to license to the RCNs of the world. And I doubt they want to do business with small MSOs that they don't compete with, as they are just too small to bother with. Those are the MSOs that already have a relationship with TiVo.



TonyD79 said:


> X1 is terrible period. It is a cloud Dvr without the benefit of the cloud. All activity happens both locally and in the cloud (including trick play) and the whole system bogs down or can even halt.


X1 here crashed tonight. It started randomly bringing up the time bar. Switched over to a TiVo Mini.


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## randian (Jan 15, 2014)

Bigg said:


> I've almost never seen a high-end home theater installed with DISH. A good chunk of them, including virtually all of the ones that watch sports on their giant screens, use DirecTV.


My experience with DirecTV is that every time there's a heavy rainstorm (and there are plenty of those in Florida) the signal pixelates badly, often disappearing entirely.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

randian said:


> My experience with DirecTV is that every time there's a heavy rainstorm (and there are plenty of those in Florida) the signal pixelates badly, often disappearing entirely.


My experience with that is usually a non-optimal installation. You could also use the larger 1M dish to gather more signal strength like we use in HI. Of course you need a good spot to hide it.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

randian said:


> My experience with DirecTV is that every time there's a heavy rainstorm (and there are plenty of those in Florida) the signal pixelates badly, often disappearing entirely.


That is an issue - primarily because of rainfade on Ka is about 3x that of the Ku Band.

However, as DirecTV has stopped with SD units that were not MPEG4 compatible (as of about a year ago), it is believed that the majority of HD Channels will move from the 99/103 Ka Birds back to the Ku 101 Bird which will then transmit MPEG4 instead of MPEG2.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> Agreed. But they are not going to license to the RCNs of the world. And I doubt they want to do business with small MSOs that they don't compete with, as they are just too small to bother with. Those are the MSOs that already have a relationship with TiVo.


Really? It certainly looks like they are looking at EXACTLY those MSOs.

http://www.multichannel.com/news/content/comcast-cox-x1-licensing-talks/356361

Comcast's licensing strategy for X1 has been underway since at least last year. Comcast chairman and CEO Brian Roberts first told Multichannel News last fall in the publication's Operator of the Year cover story (subscription required) that Comcast is looking to license X1 to other operators.

Beyond Cox?
Comcasts licensing strategy could bridge the X1s advanced capabilities to other independent cable operators, including tier 2s, that dont have the resources to develop and maintain such a product.

Rich Fickle, the president and CEO of the National Cable Television Cooperative, told Multichannel News in a recent interview that its too early to predict how receptive the organization and its constituents would be to an X1 licensing model, labeling such discussions as informal.

Technically, the execution of it will take some time and work to make it friendly to other companies, Fickle said, noting that hes been told that 2015 offers a realistic timetable for when Comcast might be ready to ramp up its X1 licensing efforts.

The notion of licensing X1 has some upside, particularly as operators mull their IP video transitions, Joe Jensen, the chief technology officer of Buckeye CableSystem, said.

Its not something were ready to do, but its something well consider in the future, he said when asked about his interest in licensing X1. He stressed that nothing definitive has been put forth on the idea yet.

I think Comcast has made a valiant attempt to try to put the right features in place to do something like that, Jensen said. We want to be the aggregator of choice, to be the place where our customers go to find and consumer entertainment."

If licensing X1 could help to unify the customer experience across cable, I think thats certainly a positive, he added.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

And let's not forget:

http://www.multichannel.com/news/content/cox-inks-national-x1-deal-comcast/395239

Cox Inks National X1 Deal with Comcast 
Cox Bows X1-Powered 'Contour' Service in San Diego

Pleased with its customer and employee trials of Comcast's IP-capable X1 platform, Cox Communications said it has signed a national licensing deal for X1 and has sparked a commercial rollout of a new version of Cox's multiscreen "Contour" offering in San Diego.

Cox recently expanded its X1 trial in San Diego, offering it to customers there who contacted the MSO about the pilot. Previously, Cox was limiting the field test to employees and other "friendlies." Cox had also been testing X1 with select customers in its Middle Georgia systems.

The licensing deal is a big win for Comcast, which has been looking to scale up its platform by partnering up with other MVPDs. Cox was the first operator outside of Comcast to evaluate X1, but Shaw Communications of Canada has also jumped in to trial it, and expects to move ahead with a commercial launch during Shaw's 2016 fiscal year. 
Comcast has accelerated its rollout of X1 to about 40,000 boxes per day. Arris and Pace, which are merging, are Comcast's primary X1 box suppliers.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Really? It certainly looks like they are looking at EXACTLY those MSOs.


That sounds to me like they want Cox, Charter/TWC/BHN, and CableVision, not the little ones. Plus, they would never license to RCN specifically because they directly compete with RCN, so that would be sort of dumb.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> That sounds to me like they want Cox, Charter/TWC/BHN, and CableVision, not the little ones. Plus, they would never license to RCN specifically because they directly compete with RCN, so that would be sort of dumb.


Depending on the ranking, RCN is between #10 to #14 ranked Cable System in America.

You will also note in the story the quotes from Buckeye Cable. You think they are bigger than RCN?

And perhaps you just did not read the links - where it states that Comcast WANTS the smaller systems who do not have the resources to build a system like this on their own because of their size.

Now, perhaps you should read the links to see what Comcast is saying about their plans.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Depending on the ranking, RCN is between #10 to #14 ranked Cable System in America.
> 
> You will also note in the story the quotes from Buckeye Cable. You think they are bigger than RCN?


Do they directly compete with Comcast?



> And perhaps you just did not read the links - where it states that Comcast WANTS the smaller systems who do not have the resources to build a system like this on their own because of their size.
> 
> Now, perhaps you should read the links to see what Comcast is saying about their plans.


We'll see. I think Comcast is still going after the smaller, but still large providers, not the GCIs and Wave Broadbands of the world.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

bigg said:


> do they directly compete with comcast?
> 
> We'll see. I think comcast is still going after the smaller, but still large providers, not the gcis and wave broadbands of the world.


rtfl

who do you believe....someone named Roberts at Comcast or someone named Biggs?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> rtfl
> 
> who do you believe....someone named Roberts at Comcast or someone named Biggs?


I've read a number of articles about their plans.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> rtfl
> 
> who do you believe....someone named Roberts at Comcast or someone named Biggs?


I don't have a very high opinion of Biggs, but I'd believe him any day of the week over a cable company bigwig. An I would believe any other random cable company executive before I would trust one from Comcast.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

ej42137 said:


> I don't have a very high opinion of Biggs, but I'd believe him any day of the week over a cable company bigwig. An I would believe any other random cable company executive before I would trust one from Comcast.


I would agree with you if the person speaking from Comcast was a CSR....however...

1) If the person is named Roberts and is laying out their future plans which is key to Stockholders and Investors

2) said plans have been seen in action by agreements with Cox, Shaw Cable and others

Then I will chose to believe the head of Comcast.

Can you point to ANY major initiative that Roberts has announced that he did not follow through on trying to complete?

You can name Comcast - TWC, but federal regulations stopped that one - and he tried to complete it.

He has spoken out about Cable Caps - and he has put them in action.

Its very hard to just dismiss him on this subject because someone on the internet *thinks* they know better.

I always say consider the source - even if its from me.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Comcast *IS* marketing the X1 platform to other MSOs. We're not debating this. What we're debating is how small they will go. I think they're looking for MSOs that are too small to develop their own platform but still decent sized, not the small MSOs of the world, many of whom are already on TiVo's platform, or are competitors to Comcast, and thus ineligible to get anything from Comcast, like WOW, Wave, and RCN.

Comcast legitimately has some amazing technology on their network, they just seem to abuse and squander a lot of it, instead of using it to deliver the highest quality TV service in the country, which is well within their technical reach. Instead, they just hand the crown to DirecTV.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> Comcast *IS* marketing the X1 platform to other MSOs. We're not debating this. What we're debating is how small they will go. I think they're looking for MSOs that are too small to develop their own platform but still decent sized, not the small MSOs of the world, many of whom are already on TiVo's platform, or are competitors to Comcast, and thus ineligible to get anything from Comcast, like WOW, Wave, and RCN.


Cox Cable is the #3 Cable Company in size. Guess they are "too small" to develop their own technology.

Furthermore, Buckeye has about 1/3 the number of subs that RCN has, yet Buckeye is interviewed in the link provided.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Cox Cable is the #3 Cable Company in size. Guess they are "too small" to develop their own technology.
> 
> Furthermore, Buckeye has about 1/3 the number of subs that RCN has, yet Buckeye is interviewed in the link provided.


Yes, Cox is probably too small. It was a huge undertaking to try and re-invent the wheel for Comcast. Buckeye is still a LOT bigger than some of the small MSOs.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> Yes, Cox is probably too small. It was a huge undertaking to try and re-invent the wheel for Comcast. Buckeye is still a LOT bigger than some of the small MSOs.


The relationship between Comcast and RCN is a lot closer than you think.

http://www.mcall.com/business/mc-rcn-comcast-spotlight-lehigh-valley-20151118-story.html


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Wasn't Charter going to buy RCN?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> Wasn't Charter going to buy RCN?


Although Charter has tried to buy anyone that would listen recently, I do not see any signs of that with a quick Google Search.

Charter and RCN have done some deals together, though.

http://ir.charter.com/phoenix.zhtml...TUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9QQUdFJmV4cD0mc3Vic2lkPTU3


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think it was Brighthouse, not RCN, that Charter was going to buy. And I think that might have been contingent on Comcast getting approved to buy TWC.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> I think it was Brighthouse, not RCN, that Charter was going to buy. And I think that might have been contingent on Comcast getting approved to buy TWC.


Yes, that is in the process and moving forward for a close this year - supposedly.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> X1 is terrible period. It is a cloud Dvr without the benefit of the cloud. All activity happens both locally and in the cloud (including trick play) and the whole system bogs down or can even halt.


I found this out this past weekend at my parents. There was a split second delay between the X1 and a client box. So I was going to hit pause for a split second and then play, like you can with a TiVo. What a big mistake.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

aaronwt said:


> I found this out this past weekend at my parents. There was a split second delay between the X1 and a client box. So I was going to hit pause for a split second and then play, like you can with a TiVo. What a big mistake.


Sounds like the type of response you get with a Directv HR-34 Genie POS


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> The relationship between Comcast and RCN is a lot closer than you think.
> 
> http://www.mcall.com/business/mc-rcn-comcast-spotlight-lehigh-valley-20151118-story.html


That's just bizarre. They are direct competitors. One thing I can't figure out is how access to MDUs works for overbuilders. Here in CT, in the area with an overbuilder, it seems that the overbuilder has access to every MDU, although it used to be owned by the city, so maybe they passed a law giving open access? I was looking at an apartment complex in MA the other day, and they don't offer RCN, only Comcast and FIOS (and presumably Verizon copper but who cares). RCN, Comcast, FIOS, and Verizon (copper) all run right in front of the driveway to the place. What gives? Or was RCN just too lazy to wire that particular complex? The work Verizon did on it is pretty impressive, with tons of conduits, lots of underground fiber, etc.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Bigg said:


> That's just bizarre. They are direct competitors.


Big companies like Comcast have many parts to them. One part may be a competitor with a company while another may be a partner in another area.

Simple example for Comcast. Their tv channels (sports net and more) are partners with all other cable providers.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> That's just bizarre. They are direct competitors. One thing I can't figure out is how access to MDUs works for overbuilders. Here in CT, in the area with an overbuilder, it seems that the overbuilder has access to every MDU, although it used to be owned by the city, so maybe they passed a law giving open access? I was looking at an apartment complex in MA the other day, and they don't offer RCN, only Comcast and FIOS (and presumably Verizon copper but who cares). RCN, Comcast, FIOS, and Verizon (copper) all run right in front of the driveway to the place. What gives? Or was RCN just too lazy to wire that particular complex? The work Verizon did on it is pretty impressive, with tons of conduits, lots of underground fiber, etc.


Apartments are private property. MSOs can cut deal with the owners to be the exclusive wired provider (DBS can be installed in a renter private area). Likewise, a MDU could allow all MSOs, providing all MSOs pay them a fee. If FiOS and Comcast are in the property, even simple economics might cause RCN to think the upside is not worth the buildout, even if fee free from the property.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Simple example for Comcast. Their tv channels (sports net and more) are partners with all other cable providers.


I don't think that's done willingly. It's either required by law, or it would be too risky for them to deny access.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Apartments are private property. MSOs can cut deal with the owners to be the exclusive wired provider (DBS can be installed in a renter private area). Likewise, a MDU could allow all MSOs, providing all MSOs pay them a fee. If FiOS and Comcast are in the property, even simple economics might cause RCN to think the upside is not worth the buildout, even if fee free from the property.


I thought that the MSOs had a legal right to serve anywhere they wanted or is that only FIOS because Verizon has a pre-existing monopoly on the copper telephone lines, so FIOS is just an "upgrade" to their existing equipment which they already have the right to operate? Obviously, a bulk carriage deal with one MSO in a condo or apartment building would stack the economics against another MSO bothering to wire, but wouldn't they still have a legal right to wire if they wanted to?

The whole thing just seems shady, unless RCN just decided that they didn't want to be in that particular complex because it would be too expensive to wire. I thought extorting kickbacks out of MSOs to get access was illegal too? It sure seems like something that would be illegal, as it is in most industries.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Bigg said:


> I don't think that's done willingly. It's either required by law, or it would be too risky for them to deny access. I thought that the MSOs had a legal right to serve anywhere they wanted or is that only FIOS because Verizon has a pre-existing monopoly on the copper telephone lines, so FIOS is just an "upgrade" to their existing equipment which they already have the right to operate? Obviously, a bulk carriage deal with one MSO in a condo or apartment building would stack the economics against another MSO bothering to wire, but wouldn't they still have a legal right to wire if they wanted to? The whole thing just seems shady, unless RCN just decided that they didn't want to be in that particular complex because it would be too expensive to wire. I thought extorting kickbacks out of MSOs to get access was illegal too? It sure seems like something that would be illegal, as it is in most industries.


Of course it is willingly. You'd be mighty foolish to have a channel that only your cable systems can receive.

Mutlifaceted businesses do things that seem to be at cross purposes all the time. Defense contractors compete for contracts then sub out portions to each other. Or combine on a different contract.

No large company is a single entity that does everything in total harmony.

Amazon has fire tv yet sells rokus.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> I don't think that's done willingly. It's either required by law, or it would be too risky for them to deny access.
> 
> I thought that the MSOs had a legal right to serve anywhere they wanted or is that only FIOS because Verizon has a pre-existing monopoly on the copper telephone lines, so FIOS is just an "upgrade" to their existing equipment which they already have the right to operate? Obviously, a bulk carriage deal with one MSO in a condo or apartment building would stack the economics against another MSO bothering to wire, but wouldn't they still have a legal right to wire if they wanted to?
> 
> The whole thing just seems shady, unless RCN just decided that they didn't want to be in that particular complex because it would be too expensive to wire. I thought extorting kickbacks out of MSOs to get access was illegal too? It sure seems like something that would be illegal, as it is in most industries.


It's private property. An MSO does not have the right to wire the Private Property without the Owners Permission.

The could in theory wire the Private Area of a renter or Condo Owner, but that would be worthless as the wires would need to connect to the feed through the Common Areas which they have no right to wire.

That is why a DBS can put a Dish on their patio private area....but not on any common area.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Of course it is willingly. You'd be mighty foolish to have a channel that only your cable systems can receive.
> 
> Mutlifaceted businesses do things that seem to be at cross purposes all the time. Defense contractors compete for contracts then sub out portions to each other. Or combine on a different contract.
> 
> ...


Are you kidding me? Comcast would LOVE to have a monopoly on a channel so that people are forced to have their service, not something else. Look at that sports channel in Philly that DirecTV won't/can't carry because Comcast makes it available, but at a ridiculous rate.

You are right about defense contractors. I work for one, and they do some weird stuff, often for political reasons. Spread the money around.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> It's private property. An MSO does not have the right to wire the Private Property without the Owners Permission.
> 
> The could in theory wire the Private Area of a renter or Condo Owner, but that would be worthless as the wires would need to connect to the feed through the Common Areas which they have no right to wire.
> 
> That is why a DBS can put a Dish on their patio private area....but not on any common area.


Hmmmmm, that's not shady or anything. I thought there was something in NYC that gave Verizon the legal right to wire, but some idiot landlords who are apparently living in a parallel universe were either dragging their feet, or trying to extort Verizon for kickbacks? Or is that right only because Verizon already had a telephone network in those buildings?

Where I was in CT, it sure seemed that the overbuilder had legal access wherever they wanted. It's possible the city itself passed an ordinance mandating access without extortion though, as the city owned the overbuilder until recently...


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> Are you kidding me? Comcast would LOVE to have a monopoly on a channel so that people are forced to have their service, not something else. Look at that sports channel in Philly that DirecTV won't/can't carry because Comcast makes it available, but at a ridiculous rate.
> 
> You are right about defense contractors. I work for one, and they do some weird stuff, often for political reasons. Spread the money around.
> 
> ...


Its not shady.

I wouldn't want Companies to have unfettered access to go drilling through my private property without my permission.

Often Property a Managers will sign an exclusive service agreements and get service at a discount for everyone in the building/complex as a result.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

I did some Googling, the first things I found were that there are disputes over who owns the existing drops to the units if they were installed originally by an incumbent MSO. This is a financial barrier to an overbuilder, or something like DirecTV MFH-3 being installed, but not truly a legal barrier, as the new provider could follow what Verizon has done, and install new wiring to the unit itself, although at a high cost. The Verizon MDU installations don't look cheap, but they do get fiber all the way into the units in most cases.

The next thing I found was exclusivity agreements, which have been illegal since 2007, whether or not they include kickbacks, and solve the drop ownership issue by saying that inside wiring is accessible to any provider. That's great for small MDUs, where it's as simple as switching a wire on the pole, but they weren't an issue in the first place. It also guarantees AT&T access for video services, as they don't have to modify the internal wiring to provide U-Verse, they can plop a VRAD on the pole right outside the complex, and re-use existing copper to bring video services in. It also helps Verizon on their rare MDU ONT installations, as they can re-use TWC's drops to get the RF into the apartment, alongside their own copper for VDSL, provided the building allows them into the basement to install the fiber cabling and ONTs without trying to extort them for "rent" for their ONTs.

But then, is there still a defacto exclusivity in some medium and large MDUs because there is only one provider with the equipment installed, and no way to force access, say to RCN, to install their physical plant to the tap locations where Comcast already has the drops and taps connecting? This is similar to the issue Verizon has with FIOS, although in MA and RI, FIOS has such brand recognition that it puts heavy competitive pressure on MDU owners to get FIOS installed if other complexes have it.

I untangled the NYC portion of it. Under _New York State Law_, it is illegal to deny access to a property to install cable television services, which means that RCN, Verizon, and TWC/Cablevision all have equal rights to get into a building, AND under the _New York City_ franchise agreement, Verizon has to install to anyone who requests their service within New York City, effectively using their rights under New York State Law to gain access to the building. Of course, this hasn't actually worked everywhere, as Verizon's incompetence has resulted in lots of buildings still lacking FIOS, but in theory, the laws make sense.

So I guess the conclusion is that a lot of states are behind where NYS is with building access, and a lot of the franchise agreements are behind where NYC is with requiring build-out, which in combination, require complete coverage within a franchise agreement, and don't allow landlords to extort MVPDs for a kickback to walk in the door, and don't allow MVPDs to extort landlords for bulk carriage agreements in order to wire their building, which Verizon allegedly tried in NYC.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Its not shady.
> 
> I wouldn't want Companies to have unfettered access to go drilling through my private property without my permission.
> 
> Often Property a Managers will sign an exclusive service agreements and get service at a discount for everyone in the building/complex as a result.


I was writing my latest post as you were posting. That is extremely shady not to have open access for all providers with an active franchise agreement in the area. NYC and NYS have it right, forcing access for cable TV services. I doubt their laws were intended for overbuilding, but rather to get cable TV wired in the first place in the '80s. But nonetheless, that model makes sense, so that some rogue landlord can't deny access to an MVPD or try and extort them for building access.

A landlord should be legally required to allow access to all utilities who have franchise agreements in that area.

The bulk carriage thing is trickier, since it does provide a benefit to the tenants in a way, but at the same time, it takes choice away, since RCN isn't going to wire a building when Comcast has a bulk carriage agreement, and AT&T isn't going to go and install a VRAD when they know that Brighthouse has a bulk carriage deal on a building. It gets even trickier when a building/community has their own community access channels as part of the bulk carriage deal.

There is a clear case that all states should follow NYS's model and allow open access. Banning bulk carriage, however, is a lot trickier of an issue, since it does provide benefits to tenants, at the expense of provider choice. That being said, I would MUCH rather live in a place that's wired for all franchised providers, and has no business relationship between the landlord and any MVPD.


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