# HD TiVo With Blu-Ray + Recorder?



## sparklyyy (Apr 15, 2006)

Hi!

I apologize if this topic is old news. I visit this forum infrequently, and didn't see anything similar that was discussed recently.

Right now, my TiVo box is one of the Toshiba units with a DVD recorder. I absolutely love having a DVD recorder in my unit. However, it would certainly be nice to be able to record HD channels. I'm wondering if TiVo or any other companies have any plans to release a TiVo box that records HD and also has a DVD player/recorder (Blu-Ray or otherwise).

Thanks!


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## jkalnin (Jan 8, 2003)

Hmmmm, makes me wonder if I can hook up my PS3 to my TivoHD to record a blu-ray disk to my Tivo's hard drive. 

The combined cost of a Tivo-BluRay player makes me shudder. That unit with lifetime would cost a small fortune.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

I would think a TiVo HD with built-in upconverting DVD player would be more affordable and have more interest from the average consumer than a $1000 or more TiVo w/ Blu-Ray.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

I don't think you will see a Blu-ray TiVo any time soon, nor any Tivo branded box with any sort of optical drive, nor a cablecard TiVo with an optical writer.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

Pioneer has plans for a Blu-ray recorder but I haven't seen anything about how HD content will be recorded. Unless it has a built in cable tuner and ATSC tuner or firewire, I am not sure how any of it will work. I have been using a D-VHS VCR with firewire recording from cable or satellite STB's for many years. Replacing videotape with Blu-ray discs is certainly an attractive thought.

Chris


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The proposed Pioneer recorder could have component inputs. But I think a lot will depend on future standardization of conditional access technology for BluRay.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

stevel said:


> The proposed Pioneer recorder could have component inputs. But I think a lot will depend on future standardization of conditional access technology for BluRay.


Now that is very unlikely, I have never seen any mention of that possibility. I don't know how affordable an HD MPEG encoder is now or if one could reasonably be included, but I would be amazed if that shows up in a Blu-ray recorder. That would indeed be a great product, as all HD content I can receive and all HD discs I own and am aware of do output HD over component connections. I picked up some rewritable 25GB Blu-ray discs at Target on clearance in anticipation of getting a recorder but have just about decided to unload them rather than wait any longer while I can still make a profit.

Chris


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Hauppauge HD PVR does this. What's the point of a Blu-Ray recorder that has no HD inputs? Firewire is a non-starter, and recording HDMI data seems unlikely.


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## sparklyyy (Apr 15, 2006)

Thank you very much for the replies! I suppose an HD TiVo with a Blu-Ray player/recorder would cost a small fortune. A bit of wishful thinking on my part. I'd even be happy with an HD TiVo with a DVD player/recorder (standard definition). I suppose I'll stick with my Toshiba unit for now. The idea of being able to record HD is very appealing, but not enough for me to get rid of my built-in DVD recorder.

Thanks, all!

Erin


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## sparklyyy (Apr 15, 2006)

rainwater said:


> I would think a TiVo HD with built-in upconverting DVD player would be more affordable and have more interest from the average consumer than a $1000 or more TiVo w/ Blu-Ray.


That sounds like a likely alternative. I would definitely purchase this. I hope TiVo is out there listening... or reading... 

I want to record HD channels, but just can't give up my DVD player/recorder. So many times, friends or family members will tell me they missed a certain show or decide later they wish they had seen something. It's so easy for me to just pop in a blank DVD and have it passed around. The TiVo Desktop software is nice, and I suppose I could transfer the recordings to my laptop and burn DVDs that way, but it takes so long for me.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

sparklyyy said:


> It's so easy for me to just pop in a blank DVD and have it passed around.


Which is exactly why you will not see a cablecard TiVo with DVD writer. The studios, and by proxy CableLabs, will not have it.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

stevel said:


> Hauppauge HD PVR does this. What's the point of a Blu-Ray recorder that has no HD inputs? Firewire is a non-starter, and recording HDMI data seems unlikely.


Firewire and/or built-in tuners are all I would expect. Firewire works great, uses 5C copy protection and never hacked as far as I know. If you are aware of any current standalone DVD recorder with component video in and MPEG encoder, I would like to see a link to that product. I believe Sony and Philips tried DVD recorders with component video input but I don't think any company has one now and those companies had little luck offering a product that worked well or sold well. I find it very unlikely that Blu-ray will have standalone recorders that offer recording sources not available on standalone DVD recorders. I can't imagine we will ever have HDMI recorders.

Chris


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I don't know of a standalone DVD recorder sold today with component inputs. Philips, at one time, announced such a thing but it never appeared. It would have been SD anyway.

The Hauppauge product I linked to above provides HD recording of component video input in conjunction with a PC. I see no technical reason why this could not be turned into a standalone Blu-Ray recorder.

The reason I dismissed Firewire is that it is not being provided on most interesting output devices.


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## sparklyyy (Apr 15, 2006)

classicsat said:


> Which is exactly why you will not see a cablecard TiVo with DVD writer. The studios, and by proxy CableLabs, will not have it.


Is being able to record shows to DVD really such a threat to the powers that be? As long as TiVo or any manufacturer doesn't allow the ability to edit out commercials, I don't see how it's different from networks making shows available to watch online. Sure, you can't fast forward through the commercials when you watch shows online, but when people actually watch live TV, they mute commercials, turn away, or fast forward through commercials when they watch recordings on their DVRs. I'm not challening what you said one bit; I think your logic is absolutely right. I just don't understand why that's the way it is. Sigh.

I just really want an HD TiVo with a DVD player/recorder.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Direct recording of a digital cable TV stream might not be an actual threat, but they will perceive it as such.


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

I agree with stevel that the Hauppauge HD PVR is the future. IMHO it will be less then a year before we have a component in Blu Ray recorder. Blu Ray recorders [PC drives] are less then $250 in some models and the Hauppauge HD PVR unit is $250. So as long as the FCC stands up and doesn't let the SOC be used in the way the MPAA would love to then we should have a very robust HD burn to disc devices rather soon.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

generalpatton71 said:


> I agree with stevel that the Hauppauge HD PVR is the future. IMHO it will be less then a year before we have a component in Blu Ray recorder. Blu Ray recorders [PC drives] are less then $250 in some models and the Hauppauge HD PVR unit is $250. So as long as the FCC stands up and doesn't let the SOC be used in the way the MPAA would love to then we should have a very robust HD burn to disc devices rather soon.


I am not following the logic here at all. There are hundreds of millions of users of DVD players with component output and zero stand alone component input DVD recorders available. With only a tiny fraction of the number of Blu-ray players with component output in service, why do we think component input stand alone Blu-ray recorders are likely? If recording video using component input and re-encoding to digital becomes common, how is the audio going to be recorded? Toslink? Analog composite? I was sure that component video recording would remain firmly in the realm of PC applications and is impractical for stand alone recorders.

Chris


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

If a Blu-Ray recorder makes any sense at all, it will need some sort of HD input corresponding to the output of what people might want to record. The realistic choices are component and HDMI. HDMI is probably out as it was designed to prevent exactly this scenario. I'd guess that manufacturers of HD recorders would have a fight on their hands if the MPAA, etc., deemed them a threat, hence the "Selective Output Control".

There are no SD DVD recorders with component in because there's no chip infrastructure for this, it's expensive, and the benefit for SD over S-Video is not that large for the types of sources people would typically record (broadcast TV rather than copying commercial DVDs.) DVD recorders themselves have moved downmarket, often integrated with VHS recorders. The margins are razor-thin there. It was never a successful category.

I'm not convinced that standalone Blu-Ray recorders will succeed any better than DVD recorders did. Most Blu-Ray recording will be done on PCs.


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## AZ_Tivo (Jan 17, 2005)

sparklyyy said:


> I'm wondering if TiVo or any other companies have any plans to release a TiVo box that records HD and also has a DVD player/recorder (Blu-Ray or otherwise).


Even if Tivo comes out with such a box, it will be super pricey initially. Frankly I am getting tired of Tivo after many years. The slow response in Menus for S2 and the freezing/reboot issue for THD has become a big PITA.

I just ordered a HTPC (dual HD recorder + a blu ray player). I plan to throw in 1 TB HD to start with. I can upgrade it to blu-ray recorder when the drives are in reasonable price range.

I think this box should be capable of doing pretty much everything that a future Tivo + BR player (if and when it comes out) would do. Don't mean to start an arugment about what a Tivo V/s. HTPC can or cannot do. I love the Tivo technology and still own many Tivos. Just that lately I feel that as a company they are not really caring for their customers (again those two issues which they know about but won't fix).


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I am not following the logic here at all. There are hundreds of millions of users of DVD players with component output and zero stand alone component input DVD recorders available. With only a tiny fraction of the number of Blu-ray players with component output in service, why do we think component input stand alone Blu-ray recorders are likely? If recording video using component input and re-encoding to digital becomes common, how is the audio going to be recorded? Toslink? Analog composite? I was sure that component video recording would remain firmly in the realm of PC applications and is impractical for stand alone recorders.
> 
> Chris


The Hauppauge HD PVR device takes component in for HD and toslink for suround sound. It digitzes it like tivo does on S2 models but instead of recording it to a built in hard drive it sends it over USB to you computers hard drive. Software is provided to make AVC HD on DVD dics that play in high def on most blu ray players (PS3 ect). Blu ray will simply allow people to store more HD material onto a single disc instead of only 90 mins onto a DVD. So AZ_Tivo I'd serouisly advise you look into this box if your going the HTPC rout. It has IR blasters to control a Sat or Cable box as well. So you could run it like you did your S2 but in HD. Perosnally I'm looking forward to tivo making truly Stand Alone boxes again but in HD!!!

IMHO this box breached the technology gap that prevented the S3 and THD from being a truly stand alone box. This would have meant that the Tivo's would have worked regardless of who provides your TV service. We can now have the same type of devices we did in the last 15 years but now with HD. Recording content onto blu ray is just the next storage step and we will have those devices fairly soon with PC Blu ray drive prices falling at the rate they are. That is as long as the FCC doesn't F up and let the MPAA use SOC!!!!


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## AZ_Tivo (Jan 17, 2005)

generalpatton71 said:


> AZ_Tivo I'd serouisly advise you look into this box if your going the HTPC rout. It has IR blasters to control a Sat or Cable box as well. So you could run it like you did your S2 but in HD.


This product does sound VERY promising. Specially because it can work with Sat box as well. For now my new HTPC will have a Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250. It can record two digital channels and will work with clear QAM. This works for me at this time. When I upgrade my Sat box to HD, I will look into HD PVR by Hauppauge.


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## Lensman (Dec 22, 2001)

I agree with what everyone has said so far about a Tivo with a Blu-Ray recorder, but I could see a market for a Tivo with a Blu-Ray player.

The reason is that standalone Blu-Ray players are come at a premium because of the high-end video decoding plus all the interactive features that are part of the latest Blu-Ray standards. You're looking at $300-$400 for a standalone player.

I can't remember which codecs the Tivo HD can decode, but I could imagine that the next Tivo model might only need the Blu-Ray drive itself plus software support to be a fully compliant BD Profile 2.0 player. All of the rest of the hardware that makes standalone players hideously expensive is already baked into a Tivo.

I may be optimistic with some of the following estimates, but let's say Tivo can add in a BD player for $100. That would make the TivoBDHD combo player $399 retail, putting it into a *very* competitive price point to other BD players. However, it is a halfway decent cable box as well or a broadcast digital receiver. Going crazy here, let's bundle it with TivoBasic with no schedule-based recording and only manual recording, but with trick play. Suddenly, it's the BD player for everyone who doesn't want a PS3 - or who already has a PS3 but is looking for something for the bedroom.

Tivo's are now flying off of the shelves and maybe, just maybe, Tivo will be able to upsell some of these to the Tivo subscription service.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo will more than likely not make a subscriptionless DVR, nor a box with a built in optical drive. One has to look at the success of the previous generation of such to see how that went, and where they are now in the marketplace, and the fact that TiVo never made those units themselves, they had partners make them.

One can dream though.

More realistically, I could see an add-on USB BD reader drive.


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## mmihalik (Oct 10, 2000)

stevel said:


> I don't know of a standalone DVD recorder sold today with component inputs. Philips, at one time, announced such a thing but it never appeared. It would have been SD anyway.
> 
> The Hauppauge product I linked to above provides HD recording of component video input in conjunction with a PC. I see no technical reason why this could not be turned into a standalone Blu-Ray recorder.
> 
> The reason I dismissed Firewire is that it is not being provided on most interesting output devices.


I have a DVD recorder that has component inputs. 480i only unfortunately, and only an analog NTSC tuner. It is a Philips DVDR-3400 model.

I also got my Hauppauge HD-DVR, and am slowly running it thru its paces. Interesting, and shows promise. It records HD using the Component output of cable and satellite boxes. It has both component as well as composite and S-video inputs as possible sources. The recording software gives the user controls as to bit-rate and quality. The device does NOT record the digital bit stream. It does have a HW encoder, and connects to the computer using USB2. The software is very basic, but does work. There is a thread over at avsforum.com with lots of details.

Black Magic Design has two products of interest - one that records via HDMI, and the other which records from either HDMI or Component; respectively the Intensity and Intensity Pro PCIe cards that can be used with Windows or OSX. Unfortunately, they do NOT have a hardware encoder, so the data recordings are huge, and require a fast storage system. Black Magic has also announced a lower cost capture device that connects via USB2; again without a HW encoder.

There are no technical barriers to making a DVD or Blu-Ray recorder with component inputs. Or even DVI or HDMI inputs for that matter. There are however business reasons for not making such a recorder.

Too bad we can't be a fly in the corner when the manufacturers decide what products to design and bring to market.

Mike


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## MaxxFordham (Oct 26, 2010)

Chris Gerhard said:


> There are hundreds of millions of users of DVD players with component output and zero stand alone component input DVD recorders available.





stevel said:


> There are no SD DVD recorders with component in because there's no chip infrastructure for this, it's expensive...


No, Chris Gerhard and Steve L., these points you guys are making (just what I guoted) are exactly false. There ARE standalone DVD recorders with component inputs in them, because there IS a chip infrastructure for this, and they're NOT expensive. Polaroid's DRM-2001G is exactly one of thes models.

But what's the point of even talking about component inputs in here, anyway, when you're wanting to record HD signals AS HD, and regular DVDs CAN'T do that?


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

MaxxFordham said:


> No, Chris Gerhard and Steve L., these points you guys are making (just what I guoted) are exactly false. There ARE standalone DVD recorders with component inputs in them, because there IS a chip infrastructure for this, and they're NOT expensive. Polaroid's DRM-2001G is exactly one of thes models.
> 
> But what's the point of even talking about component inputs in here, anyway, when you're wanting to record HD signals AS HD, and regular DVDs CAN'T do that?





Chris Gerhard said:


> I believe Sony and Philips tried DVD recorders with component video input but I don't think any company has one now and those companies had little luck offering a product that worked well or sold well.


I was talking about current products and the Polaroid model you mention is certainly not that, neither two years ago when I made the posts or now. I am still unaware of even one current component input DVD stand alone recorder which was only discussed as a reason I also don't expect a stand alone Blu-ray recorder with component input to be offered in the US.

I record HD on regular DVDs often, AVCHD format which many Blu-ray players handle but I haven't figured out how to record TiVo to AVCHD discs but it is certainly possible by transfer to a PC. The only possible way I have found to to do it with a variety of programs is more trouble than I am going to bother with. I am able to record analog 1080i over component to videotape using a W-VHS VCR.


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