# Tivo won't be welcomed into our living rooms anymore!!!



## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

deleted by op


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

Buh-bye


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

What would I use instead of a TiVo. The other offerings (comcast, FiOS, etc) are all inferior to teh TiVo Premiere. And none of them are as reliable. I always hear complaints about missed shows from those DVRs, but no missed shows on my Premieres. They have been as reliable as any TiVo I've owned during the last decade.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

sac84371 said:


> TIVO LISTEN TO US ALL.... You have not received the positive feedback you use to for years. You are out of touch and going to go out of business. You went from a product that people couldn't say enough nice things about to a product where people say, "Are they still in business." Your pricing structure is the least consumer friendly program I have seen. You pitted long term Tivo users against new users, you pitted retailers against consumers because no one could understand the pricing structure. YOU are going to go out of business unless you have a team (new or existing) that can think differently. You need to get your COGS down, increase the stability of your products, increase the technology so you are a market leader not a follower and lastly offer competitive pricing that is easy to understand and does not cause the customer to have a headache trying to figure out the ROI. You have lost touch TIVO and I don't see you making it back into our living rooms which is sad but factual.


Poorly written.


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## shorties (Mar 2, 2010)

I totally agree, TiVo has so much potential to innovate, and had such a powerful consumer base to back them up, but they just sit around, take forever for basic updates and ruin their credibility with their customers, while they focus on being patent trolls suing Dish network. They obviously don't care about their core business anymore because there is more money to be made licensing their patents. My premiere is likely to be my last TiVo. TiVo is just Palm all over again.



aaronwt said:


> What would I use instead of a TiVo. The other offerings (comcast, FiOS, etc) are all inferior to teh TiVo Premiere. And none of them are as reliable. I always hear complaints about missed shows from those DVRs, but no missed shows on my Premieres. They have been as reliable as any TiVo I've owned during the last decade.


I've owned a cable company DVR and it was horrendous, but it typically was reliable. I've also owned a media center PC nothing was as comprehensive as that, it never screwed up, it was fully customizable, there are tons of plugins that practically do everything a TiVo can. (I think the only plugin I haven't seen on media center is an equivalent to suggestions, but wishlists have been there for half a decade now) it can be extended to any xbox 360 in the house, they now have 3, 4, and 6 cablecard based tuners starting around the same price as a TiVo. And there is no service fee. Taking an old useless desktop and converting it into a DVR tower is about one of the easiest things you can do, and now I have come to the conclusion that it is the best DVR option available.


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

orangeboy said:


> Poorly written.


That was helpful. What was the point of your comment. My comments were conversational not a PHD dissertation.


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## Thunderclap (Nov 28, 2005)

The soon-to-be-released Comcast box actually looks better than TiVo IMO. Four tuners, On Demand, working HD menus, and a price point of $8 a month. If TiVo doesn't get their act together soon they'll probably lose me as a customer.


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## HiJon89 (Jan 26, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> What would I use instead of a TiVo. The other offerings (comcast, FiOS, etc) are all inferior to teh TiVo Premiere. And none of them are as reliable. I always hear complaints about missed shows from those DVRs, but no missed shows on my Premieres. They have been as reliable as any TiVo I've owned during the last decade.


An HTPC used to be more expensive than a TiVo, but now that lifetime service costs $500 and there no is no service charge with an HTPC, it seems to be a more viable option for a lot of people. You can build a budget HTPC for $300 easily, add as many ATI DCT's as you want for ~$100 each and fire up Windows 7 Media Center and you have a user experience that blows TiVo out of the water.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Thunderclap said:


> The soon-to-be-released Comcast box actually looks better than TiVo IMO. Four tuners, On Demand, working HD menus, and a price point of $8 a month. If TiVo doesn't get their act together soon they'll probably lose me as a customer.


$8, really? Sounds too good to be true.


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## Thunderclap (Nov 28, 2005)

larrs said:


> $8, really? Sounds too good to be true.


It may be an introductory price... not 100% sure on that. I should have been more clear. But I think they are still cheaper than TiVo, no?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

HiJon89 said:


> An HTPC used to be more expensive than a TiVo, but now that lifetime service costs $500 and there no is no service charge with an HTPC, it seems to be a more viable option for a lot of people. You can build a budget HTPC for $300 easily, add as many ATI DCT's as you want for ~$100 each and fire up Windows 7 Media Center and you have a user experience that blows TiVo out of the water.


I agree about the HTPC, but $300 is at the extreme low end for just the PC without tuners or support software. A more realistic price for a medium-powered HTPC with cablecard tuners and software is more like $800-1000. The ATI DCT's are useless on FIOS and require a separate cablecard for each one you have. The Ceton InfiniTV4 or the SD HDHomeRun Prime are better deals and only require a single M-card for multiple tuners.

HTPCs aren't as user friendly as a Tivo unless you know how to tweak them. The upside is that they're relatively easy to set up and use and only require a minimum of computer savvy skills. HTPCs are definitely more cost effective in the long run and offer a better return on investment than a Tivo, IMHO. They have features comparable to a Tivo in most areas, and in many others far exceed a Tivo's capability.



orangeboy said:


> Poorly written.


And even more poorly responded to.


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## 241705 (Mar 9, 2010)

HiJon89 said:


> An HTPC used to be more expensive than a TiVo, but now that lifetime service costs $500 and there no is no service charge with an HTPC, it seems to be a more viable option for a lot of people.


The biggest problem is that "a lot of people" are not tech-savvy enough to even know what an HTPC is, let alone how to build one. The big benefit of a dedicated DVR (well, except for the whole CableCard mess) is you just hook it up and go. Of course, a lot of people don't even know how to do that.  If the DVR is from the cable company then they hook it up for you, which is what some seem to prefer.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

> TiVo is just Palm all over again.


Agreed 100%. It's sad witnessing it happen though.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I wonder why a company like Dell or HP doesn't put Tivo out of business by selling their own brand of HTPC. Apple won't touch the DVR market with a ten foot pole.


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## magnum68 (Aug 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> Poorly written.


You need a translator?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Whatever... Find the product that makes you happy.

I have been a TIVO customer for a long time and have had nothing but fantastic experiences. I'm good!


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> I agree about the HTPC, but $300 is at the extreme low end for just the PC without tuners or support software. A more realistic price for a medium-powered HTPC with cablecard tuners and software is more like $800-1000. The ATI DCT's are useless on FIOS and require a separate cablecard for each one you have. The Ceton InfiniTV4 or the SD HDHomeRun Prime are better deals and only require a single M-card for multiple tuners.
> 
> HTPCs aren't as user friendly as a Tivo unless you know how to tweak them. The upside is that they're relatively easy to set up and use and only require a minimum of computer savvy skills. HTPCs are definitely more cost effective in the long run and offer a better return on investment than a Tivo, IMHO. They have features comparable to a Tivo in most areas, and in many others far exceed a Tivo's capability.


So with an HTPC the cost is $200 - $400 more than one Premiere with lifetime service. Then there is the unknown cost of "tweaking" the HTPC to make it as user friendly as a Tivo. Suppose someone buys the HTPC and finds they don't have the time and/or ability to "tweak" it?

Someone could buy two Premiers for $200 - $400 more than one HTPC. They would have 4 tuners and wouldn't need an extender. Also there would be no unknown "tweaking" costs.


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## JPS10 (Nov 26, 2010)

I have a very capable PC nicely hidden below my TV. This was originally put together for Flight Sim use. If any of you are familiar with that, you know it takes some tweaking. Point is, I am comfortable playing with PC's. Very little effort would be required to set this up as an HTPC or I could easily come up with a low power and quiet box for 24/7 use.

About the only thing I use the PC for that is related to TV is an occasional transfer using kmttg and some lite editing with VideoRedo. Why? Because I don't want the hassle of updates and maintenance that goes with a PC when it comes to TV. It needs to be passive just like a refrigerator, air conditioning or even the TV itself. It needs to work with minimal effort like an appliance does. And no matter what you what flavor of PC cobble together, I would hardly call it seamless.

My premiere is not perfect but it works pretty much hassle free. With the exception of geeks, most people won't be bothered with an HTPC. Heck, people even whine about the cable card install (including some geeks here). As a DVR, Tivo is the best option for my needs. I have yet to find a better solution. As to the monthly fee, get the PLS, odds are you will be money ahead. If you don't want Tivo, get the cable box, cut the cord or whatever suits you. TiVo has its issues but please, can we have a little less whining here?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> So with an HTPC the cost is $200 - $400 more than one Premiere with lifetime service. Then there is the unknown cost of "tweaking" the HTPC to make it as user friendly as a Tivo. Suppose someone buys the HTPC and finds they don't have the time and/or ability to "tweak" it?
> 
> Someone could buy two Premiers for $200 - $400 more than one HTPC. They would have 4 tuners and wouldn't need an extender. Also there would be no unknown "tweaking" costs.


There is little or no cost in "tweaking" an HTPC so I'm not sure where you got that notion. Depending on what you intend to use the HTPC for, you may need to invest in some extra software, like AnyDVD HD, PowerDVD, or Arcsoft's Total Media Theater. Any Windows 7 PC, except the Home Basic edition, can be transformed into a Media Center PC simply by installing a tuner and running Media Center setup.

The point I was trying to make is that you may need to make some minor adjustments to the PC to make it a little easier to use. There are lots of other tweaks that can be performed, but they're not essential to having a working DVR. For most people, simply installing Windows 7, if it's not already installed, and running through the Media Center software setup is all you need to get yourself up and running.

The one major hurdle people encounter is installing and configuring the various codecs that are required to support playback of various media files. There is a bundled set of codecs put out by Shark007 that has everything in one neat little package. There are also guides available to configure the settings for optimum use.

I won't argue the actual cost of a Tivo vs. an HTPC because the numbers can easily be skewed in either direction to support an argument on both sides. The real savings depends on the value it imparts to the user. I wouldn't trade my HTPC for any number of Tivos with lifetime service, even if they were given to me freely. That's how valuable my HTPC is to me.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Really, no tweaking with TiVo? What do you call pulling the plug every time the dam thing 
----'s its pants?


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

Joe3 said:


> Really, no tweaking with TiVo? What do you call pulling the plug every time the dam thing
> ----'s its pants?


Okay that was just LOL funny!!


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

bschuler2007 said:


> Agreed 100%. It's sad witnessing it happen though.


Best analogy, ever. There are a lot of similarities between Tivo and Palm.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

shwru980r said:


> I wonder why a company like Dell or HP doesn't put Tivo out of business by selling their own brand of HTPC. Apple won't touch the DVR market with a ten foot pole.


Simple: Cablecard. Tivo, give 'em credit, waded into a minefield with that one and no one else is willing until it is all fixed.

Once it is, I suspect there will be companies willing to go for it. After all, an HTPC has all of the stuff we would like to see from a Tivo. If one of the Media Center companies could partner with a hardware company, there's no limit to what they could do.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

Joe3 said:


> Really, no tweaking with TiVo? What do you call pulling the plug every time the dam thing
> ----'s its pants?


LOLOL that's a good one, I busted out laughing in the middle of the office! 



larrs said:


> Best analogy, ever. There are a lot of similarities between Tivo and Palm.


Sadly, I have to agree as well. Tivo is still struggling to stay in the news, but they'll slip into irrelevance (not the town in Kansas, either) increasingly quickly if they don't figure out a way to turn things around somehow.

Unfortunately, I have a feeling that Allvid is going to be too little, too late for Tivo as we know it. Hopefully a new competitor will rise from the ashes of Cablecard, though.


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## That Don Guy (Mar 13, 2003)

Thunderclap said:


> It may be an introductory price... not 100% sure on that. I should have been more clear. But I think they are still cheaper than TiVo, no?


It could be "$8/month more than a non-DVR box," or $8/month for your only box if it's a DVR (it would show up as just an $8/month charge - additional boxes that are DVRs show up as $16/month, I think).


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## chelman (Oct 27, 2004)

sac84371 said:


> TIVO LISTEN TO US ALL.... You have not received the positive feedback you use to for years. You are out of touch and going to go out of business. You went from a product that people couldn't say enough nice things about to a product where people say, "Are they still in business." Your pricing structure is the least consumer friendly program I have seen. You pitted long term Tivo users against new users, you pitted retailers against consumers because no one could understand the pricing structure. YOU are going to go out of business unless you have a team (new or existing) that can think differently. You need to get your COGS down, increase the stability of your products, increase the technology so you are a market leader not a follower and lastly offer competitive pricing that is easy to understand and does not cause the customer to have a headache trying to figure out the ROI. You have lost touch TIVO and I don't see you making it back into our living rooms which is sad but factual.


I agree completely. But having bought a Premiere last week, I need to say that the only grace saving tivo is that the motorola DVR from TWC is worse than tivo and still priced higher. I think that substituting the Motorola DVR from TWC with the premiere, made some economic sense, but I feel that TIVO has let down its fans/costumers because it's becoming irrelevant tecnologically and it's close to going out of businesss. I hope they get a kick in the pants, get their act togheter, and avoid going out of business. I also hope that they get creative wih technology to improve their product and also pricing. Who in their right mind dare to rise prices at this time?


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## jbernardis (Oct 22, 2003)

Thunderclap said:


> The soon-to-be-released Comcast box actually looks better than TiVo IMO. Four tuners, On Demand, working HD menus, and a price point of $8 a month. If TiVo doesn't get their act together soon they'll probably lose me as a customer.


I'd like to see this device. I'm open to using something like this, but my history with comcast hardware has me skeptical. Their software is totally lacking user friendliness, the remote control is a mess, and the motorola boxes that my franchise is still pushing look like they should be rack-mounted in some data center - they are immense and just plain ugly.

I like my tivo. I like the ability to write software and utilize community written software (pytivo, streambaby, galleon, harmonium, kmttg, the list goes on) to totally customize your home theater environment. You can probably do most of these things with an HTPC, but I doubt if comcast will ever open things up to this degree.

Yes I wish Tivo would be a bit more agile in adopting new technology, and I do not like some of their present implementations, but it remains, for me, the cream of the crop as far as DVR's are concerned


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sac84371 said:


> That was helpful. What was the point of your comment. My comments were conversational not a PHD dissertation.


I think he meant to imply that your comments were hard to follow due to the writing style.

For myself, I would like to know what you plan to use as a DVR now that TiVo is not on your list. All of us are not necessarily in agreement that banishing TiVo is the best course of action.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Joe3 said:


> Really, no tweaking with TiVo? What do you call pulling the plug every time the dam thing
> ----'s its pants?


hard drives are likely the big thing. I would buy a TiVo premiere and get my own large 2TB drive to put in it versus paying the extra cost for a Premiere XL

similar with an HTPC - lots of hard drive space would be one of my top tweaks


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

even if you have no other options, Id rather do without then continue to reward Tivo for nothing. my next solution will probably be a nettop + windows media center. I wonder how much I even need cable in this world of netflix,hulu and sports streaming services.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

sac84371 said:


> That was helpful. What was the point of your comment. My comments were conversational not a PHD dissertation.


I take offense when anyone speaks for me by including words like "LISTEN TO US *ALL*" and "making it back into *our* living rooms". I'll be the one to decide whether TiVo makes it back into *my* living room or not.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Joe3 said:


> Really, no tweaking with TiVo? What do you call pulling the plug every time the dam thing
> ----'s its pants?


I was talking about configuring the DVR software to have the same features as Tivo. Are you saying an HTPC doesn't need to be rebooted every now and then?


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think he meant to imply that your comments were hard to follow due to the writing style.
> 
> For myself, I would like to know what you plan to use as a DVR now that TiVo is not on your list. All of us are not necessarily in agreement that banishing TiVo is the best course of action.


I hear you ZeoTivo and I respect your perspective as well. My use will be my Apple TV 2 which I just love and there are plans for the ATV2 to also get Hulu+ which will be a game changer for me.

My frustration is based on the lack of understanding on Tivo's part. I have been a loyal user of Tivo products for years. In the last 24 months my experience with Tivo has been very negative. Not one time or two times but upwards of five to six times resulting in a very bad taste in my mouth.

I have been kind and respectful to the process with Tivo and never asked for anything other than to have a working Tivo with the terms that I have agreed to. The lack of response from Tivo to remedy my concerns have been overwhelming. So I have had enough. Tivo is not the Tivo of 10 years ago, or 5 years ago or of 2 years ago. Tivo lost me as a diehard fan simply by not trying to make a wrong right. Not giving me more than what I paid for just making it work as promised and for what I paid for.

Hope this gives you a bit more insight and believe me it took me a long time to get to this point. I was a huge Tivo fan and converted many a family member to the service. Now not so much.


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

orangeboy said:


> I take offense when anyone speaks for me by including words like "LISTEN TO US *ALL*" and "making it back into *our* living rooms". I'll be the one to decide whether TiVo makes it back into *my* living room or not.


You need to lighten up. If that is the issue you had with me that why didn't you state that. You instead made a critical remark about how I wrote the OP versus stating the above opinion. So which is it are you offended based on the above statements or are you offended by my writing style.

So once again lighten up and take the thread for what it is. If you don't like the idea of this thread or the content don't read it. Don't comment on it, don't participate. That is your option. If you do elect to post a statement I will be happy to put myself in your shoes and try to understand your perspective without acting like a child and call you names or make any off color remarks.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> I take offense when anyone speaks for me by including words like "LISTEN TO US *ALL*" and "making it back into *our* living rooms". I'll be the one to decide whether TiVo makes it back into *my* living room or not.





sac84371 said:


> You need to lighten up. If that is the issue you had with me that why didn't you state that. You instead made a critical remark about how I wrote the OP versus stating the above opinion. So which is it are you offended based on the above statements or are you offended by my writing style.


Nah na na na Nah Nah! And so's your mother.... These coffee house threads can really be entertaining... sorta.


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

dlfl said:


> Nah na na na Nah Nah! And so's your mother.... These coffee house threads can really be entertaining... sorta.


Good point. Can't believe I feel into that trap. I will end it here by not posting another reply to Orange. I should of known better.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> HTPCs aren't as user friendly as a Tivo unless you know how to tweak them.





mr.unnatural said:


> There is little or no cost in "tweaking" an HTPC so I'm not sure where you got that notion.


I got the notion from your previous posting.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Thunderclap said:


> The soon-to-be-released Comcast box actually looks better than TiVo IMO.


Let me see...



Thunderclap said:


> Four tuners


'Don't want it, unless the cost is no higher than for 2 tuners. Since a 4 tuner card all by itself costs nearly as much as a TiVo, that seems unlikely.



Thunderclap said:


> On Demand


'Never used it when I had it for free. More importantly, I want my DVR attached to my LAN. Any ON Demand box is going to almost surely be tru2way. Maybe you like Big Brother spying on you, but I surely don't. It's cetrainly not worth giving up my privacy and my ability to control the equipment I have in my house.



Thunderclap said:


> working HD menus


'Never yet seen one, either implemented or proposed, that was not worse than TiVo's SD menus, bad as they are.



Thunderclap said:


> and a price point of $8 a month.


I'm paying $0 a month for two TiVos and $9.95 a month for the 3rd.

Tell me, again, exactly what is supposed to be attractive about this proposed box?

Of course, the fact Comcast does not service my residence makes it all rather moot, in the first place.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

sac84371 said:


> Good point. Can't believe I feel into that trap. I will end it here by not posting another reply to Orange. I should of known better.


When one does not bother to take any care in how they speak - or rather, type - then one's statements tend to lack credibitlity. At best, when someone writes "should of" instead of "should have", it suggests a lack of properly exercised critical faculties. At worst, sloppy grammar is offensive, and bespeaks a dreadful public education system.

If you want your message to be heard and taken into considderation, then I suggest you take some care with your grammar. Otherwise, there is a very real tendency on the part of the reader to see only the bad grammar and dismiss the content out of hand.

It is, of course, your choice.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

OP, we've heard it all before. It is an opinion felt by many (do a search. You'll see).


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## MrSkippy53 (Jan 27, 2011)

shwru980r said:


> Apple won't touch the DVR market with a ten foot pole.


 Seems like a DVR function would be the next gen think they would add to thier Apple TV line. And the next step to attempting to take over ALL markets


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> There is little or no cost in "tweaking" an HTPC so I'm not sure where you got that notion. Depending on what you intend to use the HTPC for, you may need to invest in some extra software, like AnyDVD HD, PowerDVD, or Arcsoft's Total Media Theater. Any Windows 7 PC, except the Home Basic edition, can be transformed into a Media Center PC simply by installing a tuner and running Media Center setup.


...And which software must one load to allow one to copy all content with a CCI byte value of 0x01 to any device one likes? Without that ability, any recording device is just about competely useless to me.

It doesn't help that all the software you mention costs money - quite a bit of money - and is deliberately obsolete when released so that the user must pay for an upgrade if he wants the latest features.



mr.unnatural said:


> I won't argue the actual cost of a Tivo vs. an HTPC because the numbers can easily be skewed in either direction to support an argument on both sides. The real savings depends on the value it imparts to the user. I wouldn't trade my HTPC for any number of Tivos with lifetime service, even if they were given to me freely. That's how valuable my HTPC is to me.


And I would am hard pressed to load Windows v anything on any device I control explicitly with a figurative gun held to my head. Call me when they get the Ceton cards working under MythTV or XBMC, but only if a CCI byte hack is in play...and then only if the Ceton or similar card has dropped to under $100.

That, or maybe some manufacturer will produce a ready-to-go Linux based DVR. Oh, wait...


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

hes right,apple will never add DVR functions, it goes directly against thier business model. they want you to buy your content from the itunes store, and they have no interest in you having a copy of it, the new apple tv doesn't even have local storage.

irhorer,windows media center is great and theres nothing wrong with windows 7, stop being so childish.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

The only problem Tivo has is that people used to appreciate Tivo, but now people feel entitled to more despite it still being the best dvr option and ***** about not getting it.


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

nobody feels entitled to anything but what Tivo has promised.

Yes, its still the tallest of all the small people, but how much does that really mean? People didn't love Tivo for no reason, and they don't start to lose faith for no reason,either.


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## MrSkippy53 (Jan 27, 2011)

sabixx said:


> hes right,apple will never add DVR functions, it goes directly against thier business model. they want you to buy your content from the itunes store,


Ya your Right that's why iOS does not support Netflix and Hulu. Oh wait....

And Apple has already licensed TV guide data from Rovi....


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

netflix is a must-haves in the modern age, Apple doesn't really love having to have them,but they do. 

'Apple has introduced a subscription service for its App Store and this will offer app makers and publishers a way to reach the more than 100 million iOS users on a recurring basis through the App Store. The move will give Apple a 30% cut of subscription services sold through the App Store and it has the potential to impact popular services like Amazon&#8217;s Kindle app and Netflix.'

and this is their response to having to support them.

people dont have the type of speeds from their ISP to support anywhere close to a cloud-DVR service, so how would it work? the apple TV doesn't have storage. I obviously dont know apples plans,but it seems unlikely to me.

I don't believe the Apple Tv has hulu plus yet,I dont know that for sure tho.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

HiJon89 said:


> An HTPC used to be more expensive than a TiVo, but now that lifetime service costs $500 and there no is no service charge with an HTPC, it seems to be a more viable option for a lot of people. You can build a budget HTPC for $300 easily, add as many ATI DCT's as you want for ~$100 each and fire up Windows 7 Media Center and you have a user experience that blows TiVo out of the water.


I used to use HTPCs for recording HD between 2001 and 2007 or so( I retired them in since they were sitting unused). It was never as convenient as using a TiVo. If what is out now, were out back in 2001, I would have never considered getting a TiVo for HD. But at this point for me it's much easier to deal with several Premieres than a couple of HTPCs and extenders. there is no denying it is a good deal, but with every device there are pros and cons.

Plus electrcity rates are nothing like they were ten years ago. Between 1999/2000 and 2002/2003 I ran six or seven PCs 24/7(all running SETI and also so I could send faxes of receipts home while on travel) and my electricty bills were still way below $100. But now since they are so much higher I only run my PCs and servers a few hours a day.


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

steve614 said:


> OP, we've heard it all before. It is an opinion felt by many (do a search. You'll see).


Steve,

I agree. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I was just expressing my point of view and opening the topic of for discussion. It is sad that the community is starting to feel this way about a once great company.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

sabixx said:


> irhorer,windows media center is great and theres nothing wrong with windows 7, stop being so childish.


If you are going to attempt to insult me, please at least spell my handle correctly.

In the mean time, simply saying "windows media center is great" does not prove your point. Window's utterly stupid UI aside, Windows 7 is a bad joke. Getting almost anything done is painful and problematical. The one exception is user permissions. Windows ACLs are pretty slick. Permissions in Linux are rather rudimentary.

What happens when (not if) the registry gets boated, or, what is scarecely less likely, corrupted? Although Windows 7 is reportedly somewhat better in this respect, I have yet to see a Windows workstation remain stable for more than 6 weeks.

How much trouble is it to implement a high availability dual CPU system with duplicate IP addreses and arrays mirrored across both machines? What happens if your WMC machine blows a power supply or fries a motherboard?

How much trouble is it to check the status of other devices (like one's TiVos) on the network and e-mail the user if trouble arises or attention is required? I know within 6 hours whenever any one of my TiVos has gotten a software upgrade, or locks up. (I could easily check every second if I chose, but 6 hours is fine.)

How much trouble (not to mention cost) is it to set up a web server on the machine? An IMAP e-mail server?

With nothing but a pair of machines and the software provided with the OS, I created a high reliability zoned HVAC system that controlls the temperature in each one of 8 different rooms independently. If the main controller fails, the secondary machine takes over, and relinquishes control when the main server comes back online. How would you do that with a pair of Windows 7 machines?

For a short time, I was forced tro implement a Windows router for my sister's LAN using Miocrosoft ICS. It was weak and pathetic. Setting up a VPN endpoint proved impossible. Several of the workstations - including the router itself - would persistently complain of duplicate IPs and lose network connectivity. (There are no duplicate IPs.) Now that the router and VPN endpoint are once agan Linux based, the problems are gone (although the Windows workstations still sometimes complain of duplicate IPs).

My sister lives 60 miles from me. She has Cricket broadband service, which is pretty poor, but it's all that is available to her that she can afford, and it does work (usually). If her TiVo has a problem, I can telnet in and fix it. It also has TiVoWebPlus - a web server - on it, so she or I can do lots of things from our PCs, like manage Season Passes and delete programs. Of course some of this can be done on Windows Home Server, but how much trouble is it? Will WMC even run on WHS?

How about something trivial? Diagnosing latency problems on a Gig-E LAN calls for millisecond precsion. How precise is the ping command supplied with Windows?

What about scheduling a task to run? Have they fixed this in Windows 7? I know up through XP, one has a choice of once an hour, once a day, etc. That's just anemic.

I could literally go on for days about the massive deficiencies of Windows, but is there really a point? You are free to use Windows if you choose.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

sabixx said:


> netflix is a must-haves in the modern age


Not for me, it isn't. I've checked it out a number of times. The selection is poor, and it is inconvenient. The UI is poor. Unless I want to spend even more than I do now, my ISP's performance is probelmatical for HD video. IF things get better, then maybe. Right now, not.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> The only problem Tivo has is that *people* used to appreciate Tivo, but now people feel entitled to more despite it still being the best dvr option and ******* about not getting it.


Remove everything but the highlighted words, then you'll have it.


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

how is windows 7 a joke? I never sugguested Windows media center was 'easy' I simply said it was good. nobody would ever deny that it is a pain to set up, but the tivo is a pain to use, so theres your trade off.

I wasn't trying to insult you,I was just trying to suggest you be a bit more mature. windows 7 isn't universally praised for no good reason. it runs very smoothly,something I definitely cant say for Tivos software. is it as polished as OSX or as fast as Ubuntu? probably not, but I never claimed it was.

it just sounds like you have a bias against Microsoft/windows products and nothing they do could please you. windows isn't Linux, and its not meant to be. Im sorry if that offends you, but thats the way it is. Maybe if Linux got some mainstream application support and some real gaming, we could compare them, but right now they're nothing alike.

you complaining about not being able to schedule tasks in Windows would be like me complaining that that Ubuntu doesn't run fallout 3, or mass effect 2.

your dislike of netflix is even more baffling to me though, I never understand people who complain about the selection. just how much stuff are you watching that you're burning through all the content on there? Is it a must have for everyone? no,but it is a must-have for any DVR device that wants to be taken seriously,especially one that labels itself as 'one box for everything'

if your problem with netflix is lack of recent movies, then thats on you, stop living your life in a bubble and relize that anything you havn't seen is a new experience. if you can't do HD streaming that definitely hurts the experience, but is that really netflixes fault?

calling netflixs selection poor, when its good enough for it to consume the most bandwidth in the country, is just being close-minded.

Im not even going to address your problems with windows anymore than I did,because its stupid, if you want Linux run Linux, dont expect windows to be Linux for you.

I find it incredibly ironic that you highlight the fact that other people complain, after writing a big post doing nothing but complaining about windows, but hey, w/e works for you.


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## dwgsp (Aug 28, 2005)

I guess that it all depends on what you want in a DVR. Many people want an appliance. Like a refrigerator, an appliance can be plugged in by almost anyone and then it works very reliably. Most cable company DVRs can be considered appliances. In my case, my TivoHD is also an appliance (I have to reboot my TA once a month, but the Tivo itself is rock solid). Your mileage may vary, of course.

Having never set up or used one, it's unclear to me if an HTPC is an appliance. When I researched the subject a few years ago, many HTPCs were more like hobbies than appliances (because they required special expertise to set up and then frequent attention to keep them running). Perhaps someone could enlighten us on the current state of HTPCs.

There is nothing wrong with having a hobby, but that doesn't mean that everybody wants one.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

sabixx said:


> nobody feels entitled to anything but what Tivo has promised.


Such as...


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

scandia101 said:


> Such as...


While nobody has signed anything in blood, TiVo did say that they would be finishing the HDUI and I think it would be fair for a buyer to assume that they meant that it would happen less than a year.

The Premiere was launched with a lot of fanfare as a game changer in the connected TV space. Whether or not anything that they said at the time was technically a "promise," TiVo has failed to fulfill the expectations that they set when they launched the Premiere.

The reason has become obvious. TiVo's primary focus today is on making sure that they deliver on their MSO deals. Satisfaction from Virgin, RCN, and Suddenlink matter a lot more than all of TiVo's direct subscribers combined.

In a way that makes good business sense. MSOs have the vast majority of customers locked up. But what TiVo seems to be overlooking is that their lack of progress in the standalone market is damaging the brand name that helped earn them those deals in the first place.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Tom Rogers strategy is to sue any MSO who has no interest in TiVo being a part of their service and the expensive and burdensome costs of such litigation may be sucking R&D. Tens-of-millions of Comcast $$$ spent to get it going, and it resulted in a "we give up; forget it. Let's just offer VOD instead."

The point is that far too many people TiVo lovers have been turned into TiVo haters, and that nothing that should be taken lightly nor belittled. So, I guess some of those who mocked the OP won't admit that numerous and growing TiVo users on a TiVo lovers forum have given up on TiVo, are posting their frustrations or clear reasons as to why they are leaving or feel that TiVo is not the kind of company it once was as a problem? That is the attitude that takes a company out of business. As I've said before, TiVo's worst enemies are its most ardent apologists who ignore or mock those pointing out what is accurately wrong with TiVo today.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Series3Sub said:


> Tom Rogers strategy is to sue any MSO who has no interest in TiVo being a part of their service


we are all aware of the suits - but do you have anything else that backs up what you say about this being a strategy? From where I look at it, TiVo merely protected its own hard earned IP from DISH willfully infringing on that IP.

If this was DVR_IPisUS company that merely bought TiVo and then started suing folks then your statement would hold more weight.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sac84371 said:


> Steve,
> 
> I agree. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I was just expressing my point of view and opening the topic of for discussion. It is sad that the community is starting to feel this way about a once great company.


you keep speaking for the community yet I have not received your survey yet


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## rdodolak (Dec 18, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> we are all aware of the suits - but do you have anything else that backs up what you say about this being a strategy? From where I look at it, TiVo merely protected its own hard earned IP from DISH willfully infringing on that IP.
> 
> If this was DVR_IPisUS company that merely bought TiVo and then started suing folks then your statement would hold more weight.


Well, the conference call was predominantly about not just the DISH lawsuit but litigation against other companies too. It seemed TiVo was more concerned about 1) continued litigation and 2) the MSO market.


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you keep speaking for the community yet I have not received your survey yet


facts are facts, doesn't matter if you try to ignore them.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

nrc said:


> While nobody has signed anything in blood, TiVo did say that they would be finishing the HDUI and I think it would be fair for a buyer to assume that they meant that it would happen less than a year.
> 
> The Premiere was launched with a lot of fanfare as a game changer in the connected TV space. Whether or not anything that they said at the time was technically a "promise," TiVo has failed to fulfill the expectations that they set when they launched the Premiere.
> 
> ...


So, no promises, just a lot of hopefuls that people now feel entitled too. That's exactly what I thought.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

rdodolak said:


> Well, the conference call was predominantly about not just the DISH lawsuit but litigation against other companies too. It seemed TiVo was more concerned about 1) continued litigation and 2) the MSO market.


factually TiVo is defending the very IP TiVo developed in house to be able to market a viable DVR? correct?

TiVo wants to sell that IP to MSOs since it is painfully clear that TiVo can not compete head on with the MSOs from a 3rd party perspective, correct?

the ironic twist is that if TiVo was not doing those 2 things then shareholders would want TiVo exec heads on a pike.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sabixx said:


> facts are facts, doesn't matter if you try to ignore them.


the fact is, he does not speak for me and I am part of the community


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## rdodolak (Dec 18, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> factually TiVo is defending the very IP TiVo developed in house to be able to market a viable DVR? correct?
> 
> TiVo wants to sell that IP to MSOs since it is painfully clear that TiVo can not compete head on with the MSOs from a 3rd party perspective, correct?
> 
> the ironic twist is that if TiVo was not doing those 2 things then shareholders would want TiVo exec heads on a pike.


No one is arguing that a company shouldn't defend its patents. However, it was pretty obvious that TiVo is currently tied up with ongoing litigation and more interested in the MSO market than it's own "TiVo-owned" paying customers. Hopefully, the MSO market will be able to force TiVo to improve it's current product since the "TiVo-owned" customers haven't been able to get TiVo to do just that.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

rdodolak said:


> No one is arguing that a company shouldn't defend its patents. However, it was pretty obvious that TiVo is currently tied up with ongoing litigation and more interested in the MSO market than it's own "TiVo-owned" paying customers.


+1...

Seriously, c'mon, you guys (you know who you are) are really clutching at straws to defend this behavior. Facts are facts, even if you try to wish them away or ignore them. The conference call really doesn't lie insofar as priorities are concerned.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

TheWGP said:


> +1...
> 
> Seriously, c'mon, you guys (you know who you are) are really clutching at straws to defend this behavior. Facts are facts, even if you try to wish them away or ignore them. The conference call really doesn't lie insofar as priorities are concerned.


So what's the alternative? Focus solely on the retail product which has proven NOT to be a money maker, or pursue MSO deals and protect the IP and stay in business? Or do you have something else in mind? If MSO deals keep TiVo around and providing service, why would I complain? Defending one's property isn't unreasonable. You have locks on your doors, don't you?


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## rdodolak (Dec 18, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> So what's the alternative? Focus solely on the retail product which has proven NOT to be a money maker, or pursue MSO deals and protect the IP and stay in business? Or do you have something else in mind?


Sure, it's good for TiVo to pursue the MSO market too. However, I do believe part of the reason the retail market isn't a money maker for TiVo is because they've successfully neglected that market for far too long. Where's the new innovation and why isn't TiVo a currently market leader? Although TiVo and Moxi are the two main DVR heavyweights there's a lot of other technology that seems to be much more popular then TiVo is today (Boxee, Apple TV, Roku, etc.) I do think TiVo can be successful but something needs to change for that to happen.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

orangeboy said:


> So what's the alternative? Focus solely on the retail product which has proven NOT to be a money maker, or pursue MSO deals and protect the IP and stay in business? Or do you have something else in mind? If MSO deals keep TiVo around and providing service, why would I complain? Defending one's property isn't unreasonable. You have locks on your doors, don't you?


They aren't mutually exclusive - for example, it's clear the HD menu build was done over a month prior to the release of 14.8. That's not a big deal, really - but it suggests that it just sat there, when there are much bigger issues than changing the look of some icons, for example.

I'm happy for you if you own stock, but less happy for all of us customers. I'm hopeful that continued success with the MSO route and the winding down of PART of the litigation result in more attention to actual customers. I don't think anyone could disagree with that desire except an apologist.

I agree with rdodolak's post (just saw it as I was posting this one) - the comparison to Palm is overwhelmingly blatant. Sure, you can nitpick differences all you want, and there are differences, but in terms of a general attitude and lifetime track? Tivo's headed down that road if they don't change something soon. Struggling to stay relevant in a field you once dominated is not a fun place to be - and resting on your laurels / releasing half-finished Premiere and not updating it much / etc. - those will NOT get Tivo to a better spot. A change has to happen.


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> you keep speaking for the community yet I have not received your survey yet


Zeo read Steve's remarks. He stated there were many posts on tivocommunity.com that echoed by OP. Also based on a simple search on tivocommunity.com there seems to be a lot of concern regarding the current state of affairs at Tivo.

Okay does that address your concern.


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the fact is, he does not speak for me and I am part of the community


Hey Zeo give it a rest. You are taking my post too freakin literal. My comments were based on the general change in emotion towards Tivo. The shift in behaviors in my opinion has gone from, "Wow, I can't wait to tell all my friends and family about my new Tivo and how it's changed my life," To "Tivo is not what it use to be. I would stay away for now and wait and see what happens. The products are overpriced and the Premiere Tivo has a lot of issues."

You can use this site as evidence that that shift has happened. Go to the Tivo official facebook page and see the posts there, once again the shift has happened.

The world does not revolve around you Zeo and yes I can reference the community and you may have a differing view but there is a "community," of folks that have lost faith in Tivo including me.

Got it Zeo!!!


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

rdodolak said:


> Sure, it's good for TiVo to pursue the MSO market too. However, I do believe part of the reason the retail market isn't a money maker for TiVo is because they've successfully neglected that market for far too long. Where's the new innovation and why isn't TiVo a currently market leader? Although TiVo and Moxi are the two main DVR heavyweights there's a lot of other technology that seems to be much more popular then TiVo is today (Boxee, Apple TV, Roku, etc.) I do think TiVo can be successful but something needs to change for that to happen.


Right on. Exactly what I tried to convey in my OP. Well said.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

sabixx said:


> how is windows 7 a joke?


Have you got a year or two to read a very large book? Suffice to say it does almost nothing I need, and supporting it is a major, major PITA.



sabixx said:


> I never sugguested Windows media center was 'easy' I simply said it was good.


OK, I'll alow you never used the word "easy". It is the one most often used by most proponents, however.



sabixx said:


> nobody would ever deny that it is a pain to set up, but the tivo is a pain to use, so theres your trade off.


No, it isn't. Indeed, it is a veritable dream to use. I'm using all three of my TiVos, right now, and none of the TVs attached to them are on. I'm not even in the room with any of them. In a few moments, I will be going to bed, and throughout the night I will be using all three just as much. I will be using them continuously while I am working tomorrow. Perhaps it is more accurate to say they will all be figuring out what I want them to do and doing it without me ever turning on a TV. When I do turn on one of the TVs, I will press <TiVo>, select a program to watch, and press <Play>. Other than the occasional pause when I want to go to the bathroom, that's pretty much it. I do sometimes use them to play music or check out the weather forecast.



sabixx said:


> windows 7 isn't universally praised for no good reason.


It isn't universally praised. Certainly not by those of us forced to support it, but even many of my users who know nothing whatsoever of OSX or *nix dislike it. The phrase, "It's better than Vista" is not praise.



sabixx said:


> is it as polished as OSX or as fast as Ubuntu? probably not, but I never claimed it was.


OSX is not polished, it's just glitzy. I take off points for glitz, big time. Ubuntu is not fast. Actually, Ubuntu is not an OS. It is just a distribution. It is far from necessary to use any distribution, and indeed the fastest *nix systems are not distro based. Personally, I am not primarily concerned with speed, either. My top priority is stability. After that, flexibility. Speed considerations come in somewhere near cost.



sabixx said:


> it just sounds like you have a bias against Microsoft/windows products and nothing they do could please you.


They would have to fire a bunch of lawyers, hire some competent programmers, scrap the source code entirely, and publish the new code.



sabixx said:


> Windows isn't Linux, and its not meant to be. Im sorry if that offends you, but thats the way it is.


It doesn't offend me. The fact it is intentionally lousy doesn't make it good, however.



sabixx said:


> Maybe if Linux got some mainstream application support


I'm not certain what you mean by that. Most Linux distros come with more than 20,000 packages. The current Debian stable release fills more than 7 dual-layer DVDs. That's only the free software. There are thousands of different pieces of non-qualifying freeware and commercial software available for Linux. Almost every application of which you can think has one or several Linux analogs if not direct ports, many of which are far superior to the Windows analogs. What's more most Windows programs will run fairly well under wine, and virtually every Windows program will run in a Linux VM.

Setting games aside - I don't allow any games on any of my systems - what "mainstream application" do you know that does not have either a Linux port or a Linux analog available?



sabixx said:


> and some real gaming, we could compare them, but right now they're nothing alike.


So Windows is designed for games? 'Another really good reason to avoid it.



sabixx said:


> you complaining about not being able to schedule tasks in Windows would be like me complaining that that Ubuntu doesn't run fallout 3, or mass effect 2.


Ubuntu is not a very professional Linux distro. Few, if any, pros use it.



sabixx said:


> your dislike of netflix is even more baffling to me though, I never understand people who complain about the selection. just how much stuff are you watching that you're burning through all the content on there?


The amount I watch is not relevant. After wading through the detritus and adding up the stats, I came up with a number of less than 10% of the available titles are ones I would ever care to watch. Of that number, only a very small fraction are available for HD streaming. Of that number, most I already have on my server. There are a few titles available for HD streaming that I don't already have and would like to see, but not enough to make it worthwhile, even if my ISP didn't have a cap, which they do.



sabixx said:


> Is it a must have for everyone?


You said it was, just as you said Windows 7 has been praised by everyone. If you meant otherwise, you should have qualified your statements. You certainly would have garnered far fewer arguments from me.



sabixx said:


> if your problem with netflix is lack of recent movies, then thats on you


It is to laugh. If anything, they have far too many new movies. It's been a while since I ran a tally of movies I have by year, but I think the biggest single year was either 1968 or 1969. I have a great many from the 1940s, and quite a large number from the 1930s. 'Not so many from the 1920s or prior to 1920, but a few.



sabixx said:


> top living your life in a bubble and relize that anything you havn't seen is a new experience.


Oh, brother. If you want to see how far off the mark you are, take a look at my video server's main list  here. That represents about half my collection of videos.



sabixx said:


> if you can't do HD streaming that definitely hurts the experience, but is that really netflixes fault?


My decision not to take advantage of their product is not based upon any notion of fault. It doesn't matter whose "fault" it is. It doesn't suit my needs, regardless of how much that fact may have to do with my ISP and not NetFlix. I'm certainly not going to subscribe to the service just because it would be great if it weren't for my ISP.



sabixx said:


> calling netflixs selection poor, when its good enough for it to consume the most bandwidth in the country, is just being close-minded.


Bullcrap. It is realizing there is not enough there that would be interesting to me to make it worth the cost and trouble. I drive a car model that is owned by only a very small number of other individuals. I do so because it meets my needs and desires far more than any more popular vehicle. It is not closed minded to realize this. It is also not closed minded to realize that in many cases, popular != good.



sabixx said:


> Im not even going to address your problems with windows anymore than I did,because its stupid, if you want Linux run Linux, dont expect windows to be Linux for you.


My second biggest problem with Windows is I am forced to support it. My biggest problem is I am forced to use it. I don't have a choice. If I did, I wouldn't.



sabixx said:


> I find it incredibly ironic that you highlight the fact that other people complain, after writing a big post doing nothing but complaining about windows, but hey, w/e works for you.


None of those points were complaints. They were a small number of examples of things that range from the very difficult to the impossible under Windows. You claimed it was great, and accused me of being immature. I provided evidence that Windows is not great, and you avoid providing any evidence to the contrary by accusing me of complaining. Obfuscating and ad hominem do not support your position.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

rdodolak said:


> Sure, it's good for TiVo to pursue the MSO market too. However, I do believe part of the reason the retail market isn't a money maker for TiVo is because they've successfully neglected that market for far too long. Where's the new innovation and why isn't TiVo a currently market leader? Although TiVo and Moxi are the two main DVR heavyweights there's a lot of other technology that seems to be much more popular then TiVo is today (Boxee, Apple TV, Roku, etc.) I do think TiVo can be successful but something needs to change for that to happen.


Not buying it. Roku has roughly one million boxes shipped, Boxee (?, but let's just say much less) and even AppleTV probably has less boxes in the wild than Tivo. However, the main point is that none of them are DVRs. Tivo is playing in their arena, but they are not playing in Tivo's.

The retail market has been hard on Tivo due to one thing: Cablecos protecting their turf with the ****e that is CableCard. Sure Tivo has screwed up royally, but I am not sure how any company overcomes cablecard any better than Tivo has.

Look at Moxi. At one time they had access to millions and millions of dollars from Paul Allen. Yet, they couldn't make a dent due to CableCard.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

larrs said:


> .......The retail market has been hard on Tivo due to one thing: Cablecos protecting their turf with the ****e that is CableCard. Sure Tivo has screwed up royally, but I am not sure how any company overcomes cablecard any better than Tivo has.
> .......


+1 :up: And you didn't even mention the even-worse "****e" that is the Tuning Adapter! (I think I know what "****e" is a synonym for.  )


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

so wait, Tivo = great, Windows media center = crap? 

media center is faster, it has no fees, it supports more tuners, it supports plug ins,it doesn't force you to have a discovery bar at the top of your screen if you want HD menus. it doesn't lag horribly in every one of its service-apps. yes, Tivo is amazing to use if you love SD menus,unfinished UIs and constant lag.

the rest of that stuff,I dont see the point of talking about...you think gaming is bad? what kind of attitude is that? are you like a angry 65 year old man who just thinks ' damn you punk kids and your games?" Gaming is a great pass time, just as TV is.
the fact that you think thats a negative for windows just proves you're a close-minded person, who doesn't want to be open.

it sounds as if you're just mad because you have to support windows in your job/life. looking down at windows like some kind of elitist isn't going to improve that situation,and people are not switching to linux,so get over it.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

Thunderclap said:


> The soon-to-be-released Comcast box actually looks better than TiVo IMO. Four tuners, On Demand, working HD menus, and a price point of $8 a month. If TiVo doesn't get their act together soon they'll probably lose me as a customer.


I would like to see a description of this upcoming DVR, do you have a link? I like every DVR I have used, including a Comcast version, but I just like TiVo better and I expect this Comcast DVR to be no different. At the price of $8/month if true for 4 tuners might be a great deal.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> I was talking about configuring the DVR software to have the same features as Tivo. Are you saying an HTPC doesn't need to be rebooted every now and then?


Of course it does, just like your Tivo needs a kick in the pants now and then to work correctly.

Configuring Windows Media Center is no more difficult than setting up the options on your Tivo. You scroll through a series of menus and select the options you want. It's not rocket science.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> I was talking about configuring the DVR software to have the same features as Tivo. Are you saying an HTPC doesn't need to be rebooted every now and then?


Only for software updates, just like a TiVo. I used to run over 6 or 7 PCs 24/7/365 and the only time they rebooted was with certain updates.
Just like my Premieres. The only time they reboot is when there is a software update or I manually initiate one.(like when i did to get hulu+ on a couple of my boxes)


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> ...And which software must one load to allow one to copy all content with a CCI byte value of 0x01 to any device one likes? Without that ability, any recording device is just about competely useless to me.


IIRC, you can't do that using a Tivo unless it's been hacked so I gather you're saying that your Tivos are completely useless to you in this regard. FWIW, I'm on FIOS and don't have to deal with the CCI byte issue. I can freely copy anything I like from my HTPC.



> It doesn't help that all the software you mention costs money - quite a bit of money - and is deliberately obsolete when released so that the user must pay for an upgrade if he wants the latest features.


You only need additional software if you plan on adding features like Blu-Ray playback. Windows 7 Media Center has (almost) everything you need right out of the box. Most "essential" add-ons are free for download.



> And I would am hard pressed to load Windows v anything on any device I control explicitly with a figurative gun held to my head. Call me when they get the Ceton cards working under MythTV or XBMC, but only if a CCI byte hack is in play...and then only if the Ceton or similar card has dropped to under $100.
> 
> That, or maybe some manufacturer will produce a ready-to-go Linux based DVR. Oh, wait...


Well, most of the real world uses Windows software so deal with it. You can stick to your guns and be left on the outside looking in or you can face reality and enjoy the benefits available to the rest of us. I'm no fan of anything Microsoft, but Win 7 Media Center is the best thing that's ever come out of Redmond, IMHO. Windows 7 is also the most stable version of Windows yet. I have to reboot my HTPC far less than I have to reboot my Tivo. Check that - my Linux-based Tivo likes to reboot on it's own with no help from me and it tends to do so at the most inopportune moments.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

chelman said:


> I agree completely. But having bought a Premiere last week, I need to say that the only grace saving tivo is that the motorola DVR from TWC is worse than tivo and still priced higher. I think that substituting the Motorola DVR from TWC with the premiere, made some economic sense, but I feel that TIVO has let down its fans/costumers because it's becoming irrelevant tecnologically and it's close to going out of businesss. I hope they get a kick in the pants, get their act togheter, and avoid going out of business. I also hope that they get creative wih technology to improve their product and also pricing. Who in their right mind dare to rise prices at this time?


The problem is that Tivo's window of having a clearly better DVR is closing. Sat DVRs are almost as good and in some ways better. Comcast has previewed a new Xfinity DVR and Verizon, TWC, etc. are not sitting on the sidelines either. Tivo has to maintain its status as the best DVR money can buy (vs. rent), and few of us here think they want to stay in that game.


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## Thunderclap (Nov 28, 2005)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I would like to see a description of this upcoming DVR, do you have a link? I like every DVR I have used, including a Comcast version, but I just like TiVo better and I expect this Comcast DVR to be no different. At the price of $8/month if true for 4 tuners might be a great deal.


Ask, and ye shall receive.

Engadget


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Well, most of the real world uses Windows software so deal with it. You can stick to your guns and be left on the outside looking in or you can face reality and enjoy the benefits available to the rest of us. I'm no fan of anything Microsoft, but Win 7 Media Center is the best thing that's ever come out of Redmond, IMHO. Windows 7 is also the most stable version of Windows yet. I have to reboot my HTPC far less than I have to reboot my Tivo. Check that - my Linux-based Tivo likes to reboot on it's own with no help from me and it tends to do so at the most inopportune moments.


I use both a Tivo S3 and WMC in my home. And I am a *huge* fan of everything Microsoft, BTW. WMC is upstairs in front of my treadmill and the S3 is townstairs in the living room on the big screen. There is a reason that the one on the big screen is the TiVo.

WMC has a ton of features and you cannot beat the price for the software and monthly fees, that's true, but the interface with the hardware is buggy at best with tunners occasionally dropping out or having to be plugged and unplugged to get them to work again. It lists channels as available in QAM that are not available whereas even my cheap 32'' TV in the bedroom knows which QAM channels actually exist and tunes them correctly. Which is totally unacceptable to me. I think they are using guide data from an outdated list, possibly provided by my Cable Co, that still lists analog channels that the Cable Co has long since discontinued.

I get frequent audio drop outs (SB Audigy). Changing channels is brutally slow even with a Quad-core 2.3 and a high end GPU (5 seconds is not uncommon). The menu for navigating between live TV and the various streaming options is awful because it takes longer to get to live TV than just about anything else. And trying to set the two tuners to different input types is awkward (I wanted one on antenna and one on QAM).

And I don't know about you, but I rarely own the same PC for 5+ years and I've been running the same TiVo for that long. And I paid 900 dollars for my WMC PC and that was custom built.

My WMC PC takes up a lot of space, is loud, requires frequent updates and patches and mine doesn't even support cable cards.

Until someone starts selling an off-the-shelf complete cable card compatible WMC solution for under 600 dollars that doesn't have all of the hardware issues I've seen with my custom box and doesn't take hours to setup then WMC is flat out not a competitor to the TiVo.

So, stop dreaming. WMC does not exist as competition to TiVo or the cable company boxes in the real world and only a tiny % of the population would even have the knowledge to setup a working WMC box even if they knew it was an option.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Of course it does, just like your Tivo needs a kick in the pants now and then to work correctly.


My TiVo has never required any maintenance at all in 5 years of usage. My S2 went for 8 years without needing maintenance.

Except for updates that are installed automatically while I am asleep, obv.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Thunderclap said:


> Ask, and ye shall receive.
> 
> Engadget


Wow. Could be a game changer for Comcast customers.


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## anotherlab (Jun 23, 2005)

Thunderclap said:


> Ask, and ye shall receive.
> 
> Engadget


I would love to see a quad tuner from Verizon. If I could get a quad FiOS DVR, I would have to think long and hard about keeping my TiVo HD box. The current FiOS DVR running IMG 1.9 is good enough that I couldn't recommend getting TiVo to most people. I do use the TiVo features that the FiOS DVR doesn't have, but most people that I know with a DVR would be (or are) happy with the current FiOS box.

TiVo used to be able to compete by being essentially the only game in town. Then, when the MSOs starting adding DVR functionality, they could compete by being the "Cadillac" of DVRs. With the current generation of MSO DVR technology, TiVo can't claim to being the best in class. TiVo has to do better, or the subscription base will continue to drop.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Just from the fact that TiVo doesn't miss recordings like the FiOS and Comcast DVRs do on a regular basis makes the TiVo better.

For me to even consider using the FiOS and Comcast DVRs their recording reliability would need to have a huge improvement.

And right now most of the people I know with those DVRs miss more recordings in one month than I'll miss in three or four years with my TiVos.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> I use both a Tivo S3 and WMC in my home. And I am a *huge* fan of everything Microsoft, BTW. WMC is upstairs in front of my treadmill and the S3 is townstairs in the living room on the big screen. There is a reason that the one on the big screen is the TiVo.
> 
> WMC has a ton of features and you cannot beat the price for the software and monthly fees, that's true, but the interface with the hardware is buggy at best with tunners occasionally dropping out or having to be plugged and unplugged to get them to work again. It lists channels as available in QAM that are not available whereas even my cheap 32'' TV in the bedroom knows which QAM channels actually exist and tunes them correctly. Which is totally unacceptable to me. I think they are using guide data from an outdated list, possibly provided by my Cable Co, that still lists analog channels that the Cable Co has long since discontinued.
> 
> ...


This entire post screams of a system plagued by buggy driver issues built by someone that overcharged you for a poorly built system. "Custom built" just tells me that you put your trust into someone else to build something you could have easily built yourself with minimal time and effort.

I'm not going to blow smoke and say that I've never had issues with my HTPC. It's a PC so of course there are going to be issues. The thing is, once you've got a stable setup, there's no need for constant updates and patches. Turn off Windows Updates and leave it the heck alone. Letting your HTPC constantly update is an invitation for disaster. Windows updates are notorious for breaking more things than they fix. OTOH, the release of Service Pack 1 for Windows 7 cured a lot of ills I was having with a recent build.

I'm not dreaming. My HTPC is not only a contender for Tivo but a clearcut winner. Apparently you paid big bucks for a lemon and you're using it as a baseline to judge all HTPCs. HTPCs can be built on small platforms and can be dead silent if they're built properly. A mini-iTX mainboard system can be built with passive cooling that has a smaller footprint than a Tivo. Install a solid-state drive and you won't even know it's there. I've got a Dell Zino HD that's only about 12" x 12" x 5" and it does a fantastic job at streaming Blu-Ray rips from my server. It's also almost completely silent. My primary HTPC is built in a large rackmount chassis with ample cooling fans, but it's just slightly noisier than my Tivo. When the sound from my home theater is on you can't hear any of the equipment running in the background.

First thing I'd recommend is that you get rid of the POS SB sound card. Go with a motherboard/CPU/graphics card combo that can bitstream HD audio via HDMI and you can't go wrong. Today's HTPC's rarely use sound cards anyway. The latest Intel Clarkdale and Sandybridge CPUs can bitstream HD audio and HD video via HDMI without the need for either a separate graphics card or sound card.

Building a stable, working HTPC is not all that difficult. The biggest issue you'll have is bad drivers, as you have already experienced. Sometimes you may have to experiment with different hardware setups before you find ones that play nice together. Fortunately, there are lots of reference guides available that outline specific hardware matchups that should give you peace of mind.

Channel changing on any DVR can be painstaking and Tivos are no different. If channel changing times are that bothersome to you then you should stick with a cable box. DVRs and HTPCs aren't designed for fast channel surfing. Every channel you watch has to get tuned and then buffered to the hard drive before you get a picture to view. If I want to channel surf then I surf the guide, not live TV. When I find something I want to watch I'll select the channel and wait the necessary time for the picture to be displayed. Fortunately for me, I stopped channel surfing years ago. Now I just surf the list of recorded shows on my HTPC or list of movies on my server to decide what to watch.


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## dwgsp (Aug 28, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> This entire post screams of a system plagued by buggy driver issues built by someone that overcharged you for a poorly built system. "Custom built" just tells me that you put your trust into someone else to build something you could have easily built yourself with minimal time and effort.


That sounds like a hobby, not an appliance.



> I'm not going to blow smoke and say that I've never had issues with my HTPC. It's a PC so of course there are going to be issues. The thing is, once you've got a stable setup, there's no need for constant updates and patches. Turn off Windows Updates and leave it the heck alone. Letting your HTPC constantly update is an invitation for disaster. Windows updates are notorious for breaking more things than they fix. OTOH, the release of Service Pack 1 for Windows 7 cured a lot of ills I was having with a recent build.


Ok, maybe not a hobby, but still definitely not an appliance. And definitely not something that my spouse would have any patience for.

As I said earlier in this thread, many of us want a DVR that is an appliance. That is what Tivo set out to create, and for many of us our Tivos still satisfy that requirement. I realize this is not the case for everyone, and if you want an HTPC instead of a Tivo that is fine. But don't confuse it with an appliance.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> What about scheduling a task to run? Have they fixed this in Windows 7? I know up through XP, one has a choice of once an hour, once a day, etc. That's just anemic.
> 
> I could literally go on for days about the massive deficiencies of Windows, but is there really a point? You are free to use Windows if you choose.


We all know that you don't like Windows and that it doesn't work for you but it does work and work well for a lot of people and it is getting rather tiresome to have you interject into a thread how much you dislike it when someone mentions the OS.

Your knowledge of the OS appears to be lacking as well since XP *is* capable of scheduling tasks to repeat in whatever minute or hour increment that you need and we have 4000 PC's running XP that are stable (including being stable for more than 6 weeks at a time since I use sleep mode on my laptop and don't reboot unless required).

I don't manage the PC side but I do manage the server side and we have over 500 servers running Windows 2003 and 2008 which rarely have any OS or application issues. This includes enterprise applications such as Siebel and Oracle and SQL databases with 6 SANs spread across 3 primary data centers. We've been very happy with Windows as a server and desktop OS for the last 14 years since moving from a Digital VMS environment which I managed the 7 years before that.

Scott


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

mr.unnatural said:


> This entire post screams of a system plagued by buggy driver issues built by someone that overcharged you for a poorly built system. "Custom built" just tells me that you put your trust into someone else to build something you could have easily built yourself with minimal time and effort.


All just excuses. There is no source for a trouble free Windows system because such a thing does not exist for more than a few hours or days after install.

This is why Windows consumers are discarding Windows in favor of information appliances that deliver the content that they want without all the pain. Your notion that they're going to reverse that trend in the DVR market for Media Center is completely out of touch with reality.

You can't just "install it and leave it alone". The average consumer will not have either Windows or their network configured in a way that safely allows that kind of laissez-faire approach to running Windows.

The only way that Media Center will make any impact in the DVR market is if it's ported to the Xbox or some other appliance operating system. That's unlikely to happen any time soon since Media Center probably relies too heavily on all the cruft built into Windows.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

HerronScott said:


> We all know that you don't like Windows and that it doesn't work for you but it does work and work well for a lot of people and it is getting rather tiresome to have you interject into a thread how much you dislike it when someone mentions the OS.


The fact that it's not practical to run a consumer appliance on Windows isn't an interjection, it's an important point in the discussion. If anyone is interjecting anything it's all this nonsense about using Windows in a consumer appliance forum.



> I don't manage the PC side but I do manage the server side and we have over 500 servers running Windows 2003 and 2008 which rarely have any OS or application issues. This includes enterprise applications such as Siebel and Oracle and SQL databases with 6 SANs spread across 3 primary data centers. We've been very happy with Windows as a server and desktop OS for the last 14 years since moving from a Digital VMS environment which I managed the 7 years before that.


So all you need to have a stable, reliable Windows installation is a dedicated staff of IT professionals. Yes, that's relevant to the consumer appliance market.

Stable, reliable, cost effective Windows is a Windows guy chimera. Talk to their users, customers, or finance guys and they often have a different view of reality. The truth is that most companies can't even conceive of how much time, effort, and money they're feeding the Windows monster to keep it happy.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

nrc said:


> All just excuses. There is no source for a trouble free Windows system because such a thing does not exist for more than a few hours or days after install.


Look through these threads and you'll find a plethora of complaints about buggy Tivos. The PCs I build generally run for weeks on end with no issues.



> This is why Windows consumers are discarding Windows in favor of information appliances that deliver the content that they want without all the pain. Your notion that they're going to reverse that trend in the DVR market for Media Center is completely out of touch with reality.


I never said DVRs would ever be replaced by Media Center PCs. I just said that I think they're better when done right. I've iterated numerous times that HTPCs aren't for everyone.



> You can't just "install it and leave it alone". The average consumer will not have either Windows or their network configured in a way that safely allows that kind of laissez-faire approach to running Windows.


HTPCs aren't going to be used by the average consumer. They just want a dumb box that can record and playback TV.



> The only way that Media Center will make any impact in the DVR market is if it's ported to the Xbox or some other appliance operating system. That's unlikely to happen any time soon since Media Center probably relies too heavily on all the cruft built into Windows.


You do realize that the X-Box 360 is also used as a Windows Media Center Extender, right?

You keep implying that I've indicated that Media Center PCs are somehow going to dominate the market when I've never said any such thing. My only argument is that a properly configured HTPC with the right hardware can easily outperform a Tivo. The average consumer will probably never use an HTPC because it's not something that's plug and play right out of the box, although there have been numerous attempts at marketing such devices in the past that enjoyed only lukewarm success.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> This entire post screams of a system plagued by buggy driver issues built by someone that overcharged you for a poorly built system. "Custom built" just tells me that you put your trust into someone else to build something you could have easily built yourself with minimal time and effort.


Boy do you have egg on your face. Because, I built it all myself and it's all highly rated and well reviewed components. And I have 15 years experience building my own PCs so, I promise you, there's not a thing you can tell me here that I don't already know.

So, try again with inventing made up reasons why my scenario is invalid.



> It's a PC so of course there are going to be issues.


Exactly. So, what you mean is "Yes, Grakthis, you are absolutely right about everything." Good. So why are there so many words after this when you're telling me right here that I am right?



> The thing is, once you've got a stable setup, there's no need for constant updates and patches. Turn off Windows Updates and leave it the heck alone. Letting your HTPC constantly update is an invitation for disaster.


And not letting your HTPC constantly update is an invitation for viruses. Or maybe you don't use yours for Hulu? Because, that's flash. And flash has to be updated or it gives you viruses.



> Windows updates are notorious for breaking more things than they fix.


False. I write code for a living. This is blatantly, absolutely, false with no defense or argument that could possibly support it. You should stop making things up and lying to people.



> Apparently you paid big bucks for a lemon and you're using it as a baseline to judge all HTPCs.


Nope. Try again.



> A mini-iTX mainboard system can be built with passive cooling that has a smaller footprint than a Tivo. Install a solid-state drive and you won't even know it's there. I've got a Dell Zino HD that's only about 12" x 12" x 5" and it does a fantastic job at streaming Blu-Ray rips from my server.


So, now you need a special PC built to be an HTPC with an SSD and a passive cooling system ($$$$$$$) AND you need a server to stream from AND you still haven't said a word about digital tuners or cable card support... I mean, I can get a streaming box for under 100 dollars and it doesn't need to be an HTPC. You have heard of the XBox, right? The PS3? PlayOn?



> It's also almost completely silent. My primary HTPC is built in a large rackmount chassis with ample cooling fans, but it's just slightly noisier than my Tivo. When the sound from my home theater is on you can't hear any of the equipment running in the background.


That's great... and for the rest of us who don't turn on our home theatre just to watch Jeopardy, we don't want to hear the fans on our PC running.

And calling anything rack mounted "slightly louder" than a TiVo is like calling Godzilla "slightly larger" than a gecko. That's ridiculous. But, feel free to prove me wrong, take an audio recording of each and let's see how they sound. Give us a baseline noise in the background to compare to.



> First thing I'd recommend is that you get rid of the POS SB sound card. Go with a motherboard/CPU/graphics card combo


Ok, I stopped right here. Because as soon as you said that, well, let's just say your opinions on technology became invalid.

So, in summary, yes, I am fully aware that HTPCs can be built and they can be stable and they can be under $1200...

IFF you don't mind spending hours and hours researching hardware compatibility, driver compatibility and then you don't mind custom building it and then you don't mind supporting it for years afterwards and you don't mind it having a limited lifetime and you don't mind not getting any support for it etc etc etc.

Which, is why I said, HTPCs are not going to compete with TiVos and CC DVRs till a third party offers an all-in-one solution, off the shelf, with support. Which, is literally being worked on, but it isn't out yet.

Get your head out of the sand and wake up to the reality of the average user. They don't care that it's a driver problem or a hardware problem or a bad system. They just care that it DOESN'T WORK VERY WELL. The End.

I hate Apple, but there are lessons to be learned from them. Things must work.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

nrc said:


> All just excuses. There is no source for a trouble free Windows system because such a thing does not exist for more than a few hours or days after install.
> 
> This is why Windows consumers are discarding Windows in favor of information appliances that deliver the content that they want without all the pain.


You're even more wrong than he is.

People are not discarding windows. People are supplementing their windows PCs with mobile devices and smart appliances to add new technologies to their lives. They are not replacing their PCs.

Windows 7 is a dominant OS by all measures and standards.

I wish people posting on this forum would not talk about technologies they obviously know nothing about. Stick to what you know, kids.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

nrc said:


> All just excuses. There is no source for a trouble free Windows system because such a thing does not exist for more than a few hours or days after install.
> 
> This is why Windows consumers are discarding Windows in favor of information appliances that deliver the content that they want without all the pain. Your notion that they're going to reverse that trend in the DVR market for Media Center is completely out of touch with reality.
> 
> ...


I can only agree for right now. Whether Windows or XBMC or something else, we are heading into a time when a full featured computer is connected to our TVs and we will not be dependent on which app that particular hardware maker wants us to have access to. We'll have access to anything we want (Hulu+, Netflix, Vudu, Amazon, etc) when we want it and are willing to pony up for it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> generally run for weeks on end with no issues.


 wow, my TiVo DVRs only run for months on end with no issues


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> My only argument is that a properly configured HTPC with the right hardware can easily outperform a Tivo.


and a ferrari will outperform most any car sold. You really do not have a specific point here and likely that is hat leads to these discussions you get pulled into.

Most consumers are not even compelled to get a cable company DVR. Heck most folks would not even buy a 50$ VCR


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> Boy do you have egg on your face. Because, I built it all myself and it's all highly rated and well reviewed components. And I have 15 years experience building my own PCs so, I promise you, there's not a thing you can tell me here that I don't already know.


OK, so we've definitely established that you're a know-it-all and you can't learn anything new because you already know it. I learn something new everyday and I'm not afraid to admit it.



> Exactly. So, what you mean is "Yes, Grakthis, you are absolutely right about everything." Good. So why are there so many words after this when you're telling me right here that I am right?


I'd respond but I'm laughing too hard at the moment.



> And not letting your HTPC constantly update is an invitation for viruses. Or maybe you don't use yours for Hulu? Because, that's flash. And flash has to be updated or it gives you viruses.


I don't use my HTPC to access the internet except perhaps for obtaining guide data updates. I don't use any online streaming services because most of them are simply inferior in quality to what I can get from NetFlix (i.e., Blu-Ray discs) and other sources (RedBox, torrents, etc.). I do, however, use an anti-virus program on my HTPC and keep it updated. FYI - I do update my PC, but I pick and choose which updates I allow to be installed. I also do regular backups so I can restore my system to a stable condition if an update goes awry. I've lost count how many times I've had to restore the system after performing a Windows update or after installing a new driver.



> False. I write code for a living. This is blatantly, absolutely, false with no defense or argument that could possibly support it. You should stop making things up and lying to people.


You obviously don't visit the same forums I do. I'm not saying that all Windows updates will cause problems, but there are countless incidents where many of them do.



> So, now you need a special PC built to be an HTPC with an SSD and a passive cooling system ($$$$$$$) AND you need a server to stream from AND you still haven't said a word about digital tuners or cable card support... I mean, I can get a streaming box for under 100 dollars and it doesn't need to be an HTPC. You have heard of the XBox, right? The PS3? PlayOn?


Not so special. Mini-iTX systems are not all that expensive and are getting to be quite popular. There are lots of streaming boxes out there and I have used a few of them. I just don't particularly care for streaming services in general. What would you like me to say about digital tuners and cablecard support that I haven't already said before? I was simply addressing the issues you brought up. I personally use an SSD for the OS but a regular SATA drive for all my recordings.



> That's great... and for the rest of us who don't turn on our home theatre just to watch Jeopardy, we don't want to hear the fans on our PC running.


My HTPC stays on 24/7 and I barely hear any fans when the room is dead quiet. When my surround system is in operation I can't even tell the PC is in the room.



> And calling anything rack mounted "slightly louder" than a TiVo is like calling Godzilla "slightly larger" than a gecko. That's ridiculous. But, feel free to prove me wrong, take an audio recording of each and let's see how they sound. Give us a baseline noise in the background to compare to.


The case is a rackmount design. It's not mounted in a rack, if that's what you're thinking. I use quiet fans and other quiet components recommended by sites like silentpcreview.com. Building a quiet PC isn't hard.



> Ok, I stopped right here. Because as soon as you said that, well, let's just say your opinions on technology became invalid.


And you obviously know far more on the subject than me. I'm just expressing an opion based on 20+ years of building my own PCs. I'm not a fan of SoundBlaster products. A sound card is completely unnecessary with today's motherboard designs. Most of them have integrated audio and many have HD video. The idea is to bitstream the digital audio to an external processor and then route it to the analog components in your home theater system. Some folks prefer to use something like the Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 Deluxe to provide an analog output to their HT components. I prefer to keep everything in the digital domain as long as possible.



> So, in summary, yes, I am fully aware that HTPCs can be built and they can be stable and they can be under $1200...
> 
> IFF you don't mind spending hours and hours researching hardware compatibility, driver compatibility and then you don't mind custom building it and then you don't mind supporting it for years afterwards and you don't mind it having a limited lifetime and you don't mind not getting any support for it etc etc etc.


You must have missed the part where I mentioned that the work in this area has already been done for you. Check out forums like the Home Theater Computer section of the AVSForums or missingremote.com and you'll find pre-configured systems aplenty that have been built and tested and found to work just fine.



> Which, is why I said, HTPCs are not going to compete with TiVos and CC DVRs till a third party offers an all-in-one solution, off the shelf, with support. Which, is literally being worked on, but it isn't out yet.


Apparently you've been living in the dark ages when it comes to HTPCs. Windows Media Center was originally released as a special edition to Windows XP. You could only get it with preconfigured turnkey systems. The same was true for the original ATi DCT cablecard tuners in that you could only get one if it was bundled with a pre-built PC. Pre-built Media Center PCs have been around since at least 2005. They just never made much of a dent in the mainstream consumer market. You'd only find them in exclusive Home Theater salons and similar specialty stores. I think even Best Buy and Circuit City sold Media Center PCs built by HP and others.



> Get your head out of the sand and wake up to the reality of the average user. They don't care that it's a driver problem or a hardware problem or a bad system. They just care that it DOESN'T WORK VERY WELL. The End.


I guess you're more interested in going off on a rant instead of actually reading anything I've previously posted. I have stated that the average consumer is not likely to be someone that would use an HTPC. It's a niche product that's geared more towards the enthusiast who is more apt to be able to deal with issues like hardware problems or driver issues. They're not for everyone.



> I hate Apple, but there are lessons to be learned from them. Things must work.


And what lesson would that be? In order to have a working system you must buy a box built to a configuration that cannot be updated? PC's are flawed, but they allow you freedom to build a system the way you want, not the way some company tells you it must be built. I'm also not a fan of Apple for this very reason. FWIW, I built a Hackintosh a while back just to see if I could get it to work. It works fine, but I just never use it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> wow, my TiVo DVRs only run for months on end with no issues


So do my PCs. I just didnt want to brag.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

sac84371 said:


> TIVO LISTEN TO US ALL.... You have not received the positive feedback you use to for years. You are out of touch and going to go out of business. You went from a product that people couldn't say enough nice things about to a product where people say, "Are they still in business." Your pricing structure is the least consumer friendly program I have seen. You pitted long term Tivo users against new users, you pitted retailers against consumers because no one could understand the pricing structure. YOU are going to go out of business unless you have a team (new or existing) that can think differently. You need to get your COGS down, increase the stability of your products, increase the technology so you are a market leader not a follower and lastly offer competitive pricing that is easy to understand and does not cause the customer to have a headache trying to figure out the ROI. You have lost touch TIVO and I don't see you making it back into our living rooms which is sad but factual.


Youre right but the Tivo sheep around here are just going to rake you over the coals.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

KungFuCow said:


> Youre right but the Tivo sheep around here are just going to rake you over the coals.


if the Moxi or anything resembling a decent DVR could sell well then I would not even be here to care. As it is I find no decent alternative out there and indeed the OP is simply giving up on recording shows and moving on to Apple TV which seems to suit his needs but I find TiVo the best 3rd party DVR and the only company to even still be afloat. Hell, even Dish could not copy the TiVo DVR and sell them even with the added DISH features of sling box and so forth.

This forum keeps making the group think mistake that if TiVo just spent a boatload of resources to fix all the stuff we ***** about that some magical marketing spell will start moving them off the shelves. It simply is not so...


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> This forum keeps making the group think mistake that if TiVo just spent a boatload of resources to fix all the stuff we ***** about that some magical marketing spell will start moving them off the shelves. It simply is not so...


:up:


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

Grakthis says he spent $900 on his HTPC, and he says he built it,but then he complains about how loud it is? wtf? if you built it, it is your fault its loud, it doesn't need to be and there are tons of HTPCs that are not. there are places you could pay $1000 and get a dead-silent HTPC already pre-configed for you,working perfectly. tuners just dropping isn't common with a well setup WMC system,nor is Audio cut-outs(happens on my Tivo regularly). people run 8-tuner systems and have no problems, so I dont know what you did wrong.

all your aruguments seem to be that ' well ive never had problems with Tivo and I have had problems with HTPCs" but that holds no weight,at all,because tons and tons of people do have constant problems with their Tivos.

if Microsoft released a box with WMC on it, It'd be a far better experience than a Tivo,easily.

Not to mention they put out press releases announcing the service only to have tivo users get excited,goto their box and be unable to access it. amazing PR.

"This forum keeps making the group think mistake that if TiVo just spent a boatload of resources to fix all the stuff we ***** about that some magical marketing spell will start moving them off the shelves. It simply is not so..."

ummm...I dont know about anyone else here, but I dont care if Tivo succeeds at this point,so how much they sell is meaningless to me, if thats their only focus and current customers are meaningless to them,then all the hate is well deserved. I just want them to fix the problems with the permiere so its a better experience for the users,I couldn't possibly care less if they do well as a company,they deserve to fail.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

nrc said:


> All just excuses. There is no source for a trouble free Windows system because such a thing does not exist for more than a few hours or days after install.


Wow, really? Hours or days? Are you sure you aren't talking about Windows 98 that's directly connected to the internet? Windows 7 is ridiculously stable and secure, I can't really say anything more except your bias again Microsoft is so over-the-top, it forces you to make silly statements like that.



nrc said:


> This is why Windows consumers are discarding Windows in favor of information appliances that deliver the content that they want without all the pain. Your notion that they're going to reverse that trend in the DVR market for Media Center is completely out of touch with reality.


They aren't discarding anything, they are supplementing their PCs and Laptops with iPads and other tablets because they do very different things. Do you know a single person who can get by with just an iPad? Absolutely not, it's ridiculous to even suggest that. They have their specific use-cases, and that's what we're seeing, not the abandonment of Desktop/Laptop PCs, but consumers purchasing multiple devices for different uses.



nrc said:


> You can't just "install it and leave it alone". The average consumer will not have either Windows or their network configured in a way that safely allows that kind of laissez-faire approach to running Windows.


The truth is, Windows 7 offers a more hands off approach to security and general updates than even the iPad and iPhone do. With automatic updates enabled, you never have to install any kind of OS update, it'll just do it for you in the wee hours of the night. The iPad and iPhone REQUIRE you to plug in your device to a computer to update the software. Other tablet devices do provide wireless updating, but the user is still prompted to install them. I'd say Windows has a one up on phone & tablets.



nrc said:


> The only way that Media Center will make any impact in the DVR market is if it's ported to the Xbox or some other appliance operating system. That's unlikely to happen any time soon since Media Center probably relies too heavily on all the cruft built into Windows.


Wrong again: http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/27/windows-7-media-center-coming-to-embedded-devices/


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> This forum keeps making the group think mistake that if TiVo just spent a boatload of resources to fix all the stuff we ***** about that some magical marketing spell will start moving them off the shelves. It simply is not so...


Other than innovating on the software front again, I think if VoD support is rolled out to more Cable providers and service pricing is streamlined (CHEAPER), they could really change things. Why would anyone pay $20/month + $1-$8 for a cable card + an outlet fee PER ROOM when the Cable Company (Or Telco) can provide a albeit worse experience that's much cheaper.

Service should either be tied to a Tuner or be streamlined to $7.99/month per device with no limit. Extenders should cost NOTHING except the price of the hardware, which shouldn't exceed $100. I wouldn't mind paying $20/month for a quad tuner, cable card & VoD equipped TiVo box ($5 per tuner), if it meant I could have an extender in every room streaming Live TV and recorded shows from the master TiVo.

At this point, it's insulting that TiVo is having us subsidize their half-baked development. MRV is crap, and there is no excuse for not having true streaming, unified Now Playing list, cooperative tuning and a complete UI. They've had literally 5 years to get this done, what has the development team really done since the introduction of the Series 3?

The sad thing is, if TiVo just scrapped the individual TiVo for each bedroom paradigm and went with a master TiVo with more tuner and cheap extender hardware, (à la Mediaroom) they'd be in a much better position software-wise because a lot of things like cooperative scheduling, unified now playing list and streaming become redundant since everything is communicating with a single master TiVo.

Get it together TiVo!


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

sabixx said:


> Grakthis says he spent $900 on his HTPC, and he says he built it,but then he complains about how loud it is? wtf? if you built it, it is your fault its loud, it doesn't need to be and there are tons of HTPCs that are not. there are places you could pay $1000 and get a dead-silent HTPC already pre-configed for you,working perfectly. tuners just dropping isn't common with a well setup WMC system,nor is Audio cut-outs(happens on my Tivo regularly). people run 8-tuner systems and have no problems, so I dont know what you did wrong.


Yep. I run 8 tuners in my setup and rarely have any issues other than the occasional cablecard lockup. This is usually indicated by a "Tuner not available" message. They claim cablecards can handle up to six HD streams simultaneously but I think it's more like 3 if you want a completely stable system. The new SD HDHR Prime uses a single CC for three tuners so chances are it will be extremely stable for WMC use.

I only ran into the CC lockup issue when using multiple WMC extenders. I've dumped the extenders so I no longer have the problem. I'd be curious to see if the tuner sharing app from Ceton helps to eliminate this problem since you'd no longer be sharing individual tuners between an extender and the main PC but rather dedicating a given tuner to one PC.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Again, warts and alll, Tivo is the best solution out there for what it does. COuld it be better? Yes.

Name one DVR/STB that can do all the things Tivo can and pass the "I got one for my Grandma" test. There are none.

Moxi- has three tuners, extenders with real streaming and a working HDUI. Internet apps/streaming only via Play-On software and then restricted to whatever the app can do on a PC (SD only in many cases, etc). No unified scheduling if you have additional Moxis. No moving files to PC/from PC. Also, effectively a "dead" solution with indications all devlopment has stopped.

Cable DVRs- Most have two tuners only, many have added streaming to cable boxes and other cable DVRs. No Internet apps for most, but you do have the cableco's VOD. No unified scheduling/deleting and some of the worst UIs I have ever seen (some are getting better). No "to the PC" or "from the PC" functionality.

Media Center PC- Has it all if you are willing to go there, but Granny would drop dead trying to use it and keep it up. I am not Granny, but I am also not willing to tell my family I missed their favorite show because Windows downloaded an update and the sytem hung on bootup. Likely breakeven over Tivo measured in a couple of years.

Tivo- No true streaming (but has MRV- unless CCI is an issue for you-and it is fast as heck on Premieres), No extenders or even unified scheduling with other Tivos. The HDUI is slick but unfinished and still has the need for speed.

Feel free to correct me where I am wrong or missing info, but IMO Tivo meets more of my needs than any other solution. They have to do something on this streaming issue due to the CCI flag but the UI is secondary to me. I need bulletproof recording and Tivo to Go and Tivo to Come Back functionality (pyTivo, kmttg, Tivo Desktop, streambaby) more than anything else.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

larrs said:


> Again, warts and alll, Tivo is the best solution out there for what it does. COuld it be better? Yes.
> 
> Name one DVR/STB that can do all the things Tivo can and pass the "I got one for my Grandma" test. There are none.
> 
> ...


So , let me see if I've got this right. You're basically saying that Tivos are for the technically challenged whereas Media Center PCs are reserved for the smarter folks. Got it. We won't buy Granny an HTPC. But wait, she's on a fixed income and can't afford the escalating monthly Tivo fees, let alone a lifetime subscription! Now what?

FYI - neither my 87-year old mother or my 86-year old mother-in-law have any interest in owning or using a DVR. I'm still getting my mother used to the idea of sending and receiving e-mails. Most "Grannies" haven't moved into the 21st century, technologically speaking. My Mom had FIOS installed and never realized she was paying for HDTV and only had an SDTV cable box. She wasn't even aware of the difference until I showed her. Heck, my wife still tunes to standard def channels on her HDTV using the Tivo. Nobody in my household uses the Tivo to record anything. Not everyone has an interest in current technology, let alone a Tivo or an HTPC.

FYFI - my HTPC does everything listed above and much more. I've got my HTPC configured to download updates automatically but only install them when I tell it to, and then only the ones I approve. I've never had my HTPC hang at bootup, but I've had lots of Tivos do it. What's Granny gonna do when that happens and you're not around to fix it?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> So , let me see if I've got this right. You're basically saying that Tivos are for the technically challenged whereas Media Center PCs are reserved for the smarter folks. Got it. We won't buy Granny an HTPC. But wait, she's on a fixed income and can't afford the escalating monthly Tivo fees, let alone a lifetime subscription! Now what?


I would imagine that Granny would do like most of her generation, and go without what she can't afford. Probably a lesson to be learned there.


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## rayik (Feb 4, 2006)

I've been reading this thread for days without commenting. 

Our set up has an htpc (dual core atom board, 4gb ram , ssd running win7 media center), tivo and roku. Having used both an htpc and roku, they are excellent devices for what they are. Likewise, the tivo is an excellent device for what it is. Of the 3, Tivo is the worse for streaming internet video. Of the 3, Tivo is the best for ease of use to record broadcast TV (ours is OTA).

mr.unnatural, you are fighting a losing battle. The devices are what they are and regardless of your personal experience (and mine too), you are not going to convince anyone here of the goodness of the htpc. As long as you and your family enjoy the experience, that is all that counts.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> This forum keeps making the group think mistake that if TiVo just spent a boatload of resources to fix all the stuff we ***** about that some magical marketing spell will start moving them off the shelves. It simply is not so...


That might be true but what not fixing all this stuff is accomplishing is making people like me take pause at whatever comes after the Premiere.

My situation is a little unique. I bought a HD and wanted to use it with analog only. It was great until the tuner bug reared its head and Tivo jerked me around about that for 6 months. Finally they offered to sell me a Premiere at a slightly reduced rate. I bit on it since it was newer and supposedly had more features.

The Premiere is at best a small upgrade from the HD. It streams better than the HD and has a half finished HD UI which looks okay but its not a game changer and the lack of moving it forward in a positive manner is going to come back to haunt them.

They should have finished the UI, polished up the turd that is the Netflix app and done some other stuff to get their house in order instead of pushing out half baked implementations to make themselves a dollar.

Tivo is like that website covered in ads you hate to go to but just deal with it anyway. Theyre cramming as much crap into it as they can to make themselves a dollar while they neglect the user experience.

The Tivo loyalists will never see anything wrong with that and like the sheep they are will run out and buy the next Tivo "game changer" and sit here and defend anything and everything Tivo does.

Im not saying Ill never buy another Tivo but I wont buy another one anywhere close to launch and judging how they have handled the Premiere, Im not sure Id even buy the first year. With the pricing being what it is, I might pass all together, I dont know. Point is, Tivo has done nothing to keep my business. I dont feel like my money means anything to them and Ive been a Tivo user since the Series 1 came out.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Joe3 said:


> Really, no tweaking with TiVo? What do you call pulling the plug every time the dam thing
> ----'s its pants?


I can count on two fingers the number of times I've had to pull the plug on my S3....


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

KungFuCow said:


> ...I bought a HD and wanted to use it with analog only.....


Now that's just one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever read....


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

rayik said:


> The devices are what they are and regardless of your personal experience (and mine too), you are not going to convince anyone here of the goodness of the htpc. As long as you and your family enjoy the experience, that is all that counts.


I never said that. I would go the Media Center PC in a heartbeat (we already have a HTPC that serves up movies and videos to the Tivos) and a bunch of computers all over the house, but it is not ready for the masses- not even my family. Tivo, for the most part is. (OK, that's debateable with Cable Cards ).

I am convinced there is a MCPC in my future but not yet.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> I can count on two fingers the number of times I've had to pull the plug on my S3....


Keep practicing, and lay off the "bier", and you'll learn to count on all ten fingers!


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## jamesacastro (Feb 9, 2006)

I agree with the OP. Which is why I went with DirecTV after so many years with cable/TiVo. I've had no problems, I've gotten used to the interface, and couldn't be happier. Of course when I extolled the virtues of DTV in this forum I was summarily raked over the coals by some. 

I like the fire in the belly of those TiVo die-hards. I WAS one of 'em. TiVo has to step or or get out of the way.


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

Bierboy said:


> I can count on two fingers the number of times I've had to pull the plug on my S3....


the S3 is about a million times more stable than the permire. Ive had to unplug my box 10+ times just from Netflix problems before they fixed the app from crashing if you went too far into your queue.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

rayik said:


> mr.unnatural, you are fighting a losing battle. The devices are what they are and regardless of your personal experience (and mine too), you are not going to convince anyone here of the goodness of the htpc. As long as you and your family enjoy the experience, that is all that counts.


I don't see it as a battle but rather an open dialog where people are simply expressing their opinions. I don't expect to convert anyone from using a Tivo to an HTPC, especially in these forums where the rank and file think that nothing could possibly be better than a Tivo. It's their loss, not mine.

I've used lots of DVRs over the years and I picked Tivo because of the fact that it can be hacked to do a multitude of things over and above what a stock Tivo can do. The thing is, all of the things the hacking community developed and enjoyed for many years ahead of the mainstream users is now incorporated into virtually every current model of Tivo. There's nothing more to hack, or at least nothing that piques my interest.

I've gone about as far as I can with anything Tivo-related. The next logical step for me was to look at Media Center PCs. At first I used them for recording OTA programming to supplement my Tivos that I used for DirecTV and eventually FIOS. Now that cablecard tuners are available I find that Windows Media Center not only supplants the Tivos I once loved but far surpasses them in almost every way. Tivos are far too limited by comparison. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but them's the facts.

FWIW, I've used many DVRs in the past that I found to be better and more user-friendly than Tivos. I stuck with Tivos because the other DVRs are no longer manufactured and Tivos could be hacked whereas the other brands had limited hackability, if any. ReplayTV was far ahead of Tivo technologically but fell victim to poor marketing and legal issues. Had they been able to weather the storm and develop a HD version I'd be surprised if there would be as many loyal Tivo owners as there are today.

UltimateTV was one of the best DirecTV DVRs I've ever used, but Microsoft charged double the fees that Tivo did and it was a Microsoft product so I opted out of that short-term relationship. Microsoft quickly abandoned UltimateTV so now it's a moot point. That left Tivo as the No. 1 contender for top DVR. They were still standing after the dust settled and basically had no other viable competition. I don't even consider cableco DVRs as competition for Tivo simply because they're aimed at different markets. These are the boxes that "Granny" would more likely use simply because the cableco will fix or replace them if they break. She probably also never heard of a Tivo and got the DVR only because some sharp salesman talked her into it.

Tivos are still great DVRs. I've never said otherwise. I just don't think they offer as much flexibility and features that a Media Center PC can offer. With a Tivo you need a separate box for recording TV, another one for playing back DVDs and Blu-Rays, another box for playing back media files, and so on and so forth. With an HTPC I only need a single box to do all that and more. I also like the fact that I pay zero monthly fees after my initial investment. No extra charge for lifetime service. HTPCs are the perfect all-in-one solution.

In case anyone's interested, here are a couple of buyer's and builder's guides for HTPCs:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1302559

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1250607

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940972

http://www.missingremote.com/guide/beginners-guide-building-home-theater-pc

Note that the The Missing Remote (missing remote.com) has a series of Beginner's Guides for all things HTPC related and are still developing even more guides. There are lots of good articles there that are worth a read. Even if you have no intention of building an HTPC but just want to learn more about them, it's a great resource of information.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Most of what you said was re-iterating the things I already responded to, but there are a few nuggets here.



mr.unnatural said:


> I'm not saying that all Windows updates will cause problems, but there are countless incidents where many of them do.


Ok, so, you're walking back your previous claim that the updates are notorious for causing more problems than they fix and you are instead saying "there are countless incidents where many of them do [cause problems]." First of all, it's not countless. And second of all, yes, patches sometimes cause problems. Even while fixing 20 problems, they might cause 1 new problem. This is the reality of technology and this is a far cry from your original claim.

Engage in less hyperbole and say what you mean the first time so you don't have to walk it back later and communication is smoother and easier for everyone.



> You must have missed the part where I mentioned that the work in this area has already been done for you. Check out forums like the Home Theater Computer section of the AVSForums or missingremote.com and you'll find pre-configured systems aplenty that have been built and tested and found to work just fine.


That's great for you and I. What about for my mom? Is she going to check the AVSForums to build an HTPC? I guess you are going to say it's not "for her." Well then, TiVo is. So your HTPC is worse than a TiVo. Thanks for agreeing with me again.



> Apparently you've been living in the dark ages when it comes to HTPCs. Windows Media Center was originally released as a special edition to Windows XP. You could only get it with preconfigured turnkey systems. The same was true for the original ATi DCT cablecard tuners in that you could only get one if it was bundled with a pre-built PC. Pre-built Media Center PCs have been around since at least 2005. They just never made much of a dent in the mainstream consumer market. You'd only find them in exclusive Home Theater salons and similar specialty stores. I think even Best Buy and Circuit City sold Media Center PCs built by HP and others.


Way to not be up-to-date on the technology I am talking about. Use google to find out what I am talking about before you respond with something totally unrelated and try to give a history lesson to someone who already knows it.



> I guess you're more interested in going off on a rant instead of actually reading anything I've previously posted. I have stated that the average consumer is not likely to be someone that would use an HTPC. It's a niche product that's geared more towards the enthusiast who is more apt to be able to deal with issues like hardware problems or driver issues. They're not for everyone.


And then you flip around and contradict yourself by suggesting that the WMC PCs are superior to TiVo?

Again, you're walking back what you said. Forgive me for assuming you were going to be consistent and that what you said on page X would be the same as what you said on page X - 5. If you don't change your story, I won't have to read your entire posting history.



> And what lesson would that be?


The lesson is that consumers like appliances. We like PCs too... but most things, we just want appliances. Even the tech class wants appliances. We want a box that plugs into our TVs and works and we're willing to pay for that. Even the cable card pairing in TiVos is unacceptably complicated for most users. We live in an era where video games all come with a first stage tutorial because no one wants to read the instructions.

I love to fiddle with my PC... I do not love to fiddle with my television. I also do not want to fiddle with my toaster, my fridge, my dishwasher, etc.

This is the lesson to take from apple. People want something that works, right out of the box, without hours of customization and tweaking.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

sabixx said:


> Grakthis says he spent $900 on his HTPC, and he says he built it,but then he complains about how loud it is? wtf? if you built it, it is your fault its loud, it doesn't need to be and there are tons of HTPCs that are not. there are places you could pay $1000 and get a dead-silent HTPC already pre-configed for you,working perfectly. tuners just dropping isn't common with a well setup WMC system,nor is Audio cut-outs(happens on my Tivo regularly). people run 8-tuner systems and have no problems, so I dont know what you did wrong.


Way to totally miss the point. I built a PC. The PC has all of the necessary components to be a WMC PC and it sucks at that. Saying "well, you could have bought all of this specialty hardware to make it work better" is exactly the problem I am pointing to and what you are doing is reinforcing exactly what I said... it takes specialty hardware to make a TV tuner box. You know, specialty hardware like TiVo will sell you pre-configured and built.



> all your aruguments seem to be that ' well ive never had problems with Tivo and I have had problems with HTPCs" but that holds no weight,at all,because tons and tons of people do have constant problems with their Tivos.


First of all, no, that's not what I said. Second of all, even if I had said that, literally, saying "people have problems with their TiVo's" is not an argument that WMC is fine. You need to take a lesson in valid logical arguments.



> if Microsoft released a box with WMC on it, It'd be a far better experience than a Tivo,easily.


and where is that box? Do you have one for me? How much is it?

So, you're just speculating?

Ok, thanks.

Well, if XMC released a box that just "worked" it might be better than a TiVo too... but since they haven't, I am not going to sit here and guess on what might maybe possibly be true in an alternate world. I am going to look at my actual options and actual choices.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> Way to totally miss the point. I built a PC. The PC has all of the necessary components to be a WMC PC and it sucks at that. Saying "well, you could have bought all of this specialty hardware to make it work better" is exactly the problem I am pointing to and what you are doing is reinforcing exactly what I said... it takes specialty hardware to make a TV tuner box. You know, specialty hardware like TiVo will sell you pre-configured and built.


This is where you're dead wrong. You can take any off-the-shelf Windows 7 PC and turn it into a Media Center PC. Installing a TV tuner in a PC is no different that any other PC component. Plug it in and install the drivers. There's no specialty hardware required, unless you consider the tuner to fit into this category.

You built a PC and then griped about the way it performed and then proceeded to bash HTPCs in general because yours didn't work the way you wanted. This tells me that you don't have the expertise you claim to have or else you'd have figured out what the problems are. There are lots of support forums available to help you solve any PC issues, not to mention the manufacturer's tech support. Don't criticize HTPCs because you are inept at setting them up.

Go back to your Tivo toaster. It is clear that you need an appliance to watch TV and don't have the necessary skills to properly build and configure an HTPC.


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

you built the pc,you installed the software,you set up the system,so its microsoft fault its bad? I don't really get how you got to this line of thinking. you could of made it more quiet, you cant complain that its loud when you're not willing to correct it. if your Tivo can be that quiet, guess what, so can a pc,because the Tivo is just a pc running linux.

and I have no idea what 'specialty' hardware you could be talking about. you mean a tuner? which are like snapping in a video card,which anybody could do? whats so special about that? not to mention you can buy pcs with them built in....


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Grakthis said:


> and where is that box? Do you have one for me? How much is it?
> 
> So, you're just speculating?
> 
> ...


It's coming: http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/27/windows-7-media-center-coming-to-embedded-devices/


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

I expect my TiVos to record the TV shows I want and play them when and where I want. They do the first just fine. MRV used to be nice until the darned cablecard and CCI byte. If this was all they did, I'd still be happy with the investment.

The need to be an all-inclusive media box is driving a good deal of the unhappiness with TiVo IMO. They stream Netflix acceptably, but there are better boxes for that. My movie collection is on a server, which the TiVos can handle, too. They are also fine for the occasional Youtube or photo display, but there are better boxes for those, too.

An "everything" box is a sum of compromises. I'd bet if most people did a prioritized ranking of the features they really use and the boxes that can do them, TiVo would be one of the top choices at the end. The fact that it doesn't do everything the best seems to get people upset.

I'll keep my 7 active TiVos (not counting the 4 inactive ones), and pass on the HTPC. I did set one up, but found that having to run everything through VideoReDo to move it to a TiVo a PITA. Buying a bunch of extenders for it doesn't make sense, either.


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

buying 7+ tivos doesn't make sense either,but that didn't stop you now did it.

Tivo recorded Video fine when it was $13 a month and people wouldnt of upgraded to the permiere just to record videos,which they could already do with their Tivo HDs. so what is the justification for it being $20 a month now? its not providing any more features then it did before(not ones that work properly,anyway) its only providing very poor streaming apps. people bought the permire because they wanted more,and they ended up with a less-stable box that runs at a higher cost.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

sabixx said:


> buying 7+ tivos doesn't make sense either,but that didn't stop you now did it.


You don't have very good people skills, do you?


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## Hogues92 (Jan 8, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> You don't have very good people skills, do you?


Pot, meet Kettle.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

Hogues92 said:


> Pot, meet Kettle.


+1 

Also thought it was amusing how he didn't address a single point, just resorted to an ad hominem.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

sabixx said:


> ...
> 
> Tivo recorded Video fine when it was $13 a month and people wouldnt of upgraded to the permiere just to record videos,which they could already do with their Tivo HDs. so what is the justification for it being $20 a month now? its not providing any more features then it did before(not ones that work properly,anyway) its only providing very poor streaming apps. people bought the permire because they wanted more,and they ended up with a less-stable box that runs at a higher cost.


Why do you post bull sh** like this?

You and everyone on this forum knows that TiVo never sold a $99 full price HD DVR with a $13/mo service fee. If we agree with going to the "cell phone" model of using subscription costs to subsidize hardware purchases is good or not is of course a valid topic of discussion along with if the cost is worth it or not. However the over all costs have not really changed much. 3 years ago I purchased a TiVo HD with lifetime for $500 it was a special deal and considered a great price, today I can buy a Premiere with lifetime for the same price or less.

It is also very clear that the Premiere is a superior to a TiVo HD in every way. If it is worth upgrading or not is also certainly a good topic of discussion (I don't think it is worth the costs to upgrade). But the Premiere is better.

We all know from you many many "TiVo sucks in every possible way" posts that you have buyer remorse and don't like your TiVo. I suggest you give it away and save yourself the aggravation.

Thanks,


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Here's an excerpt from the current Tivo pricing plan:



> 2. You may purchase a subscription to the TiVo Service in one of the following ways:
> 
> 2.1 For TiVo Premiere boxes:
> 2.1.1 When purchasing a TiVo Premiere box and subscription at the same time directly from TiVo, you may select one of the following options:
> ...


Apparently the new price of $19.99 per month only applies to the Premiere. It looks like a Tivo HD can still be subscribed at the rate of $12.95 per month, so bullsh**, or not? You decide.

FYI - Tivo routinely sold refurbed Tivo HD's for $99.00.


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

atmuscarella said:


> Why do you post bull sh** like this?
> 
> You and everyone on this forum knows that TiVo never sold a $99 full price HD DVR with a $13/mo service fee. If we agree with going to the "cell phone" model of using subscription costs to subsidize hardware purchases is good or not is of course a valid topic of discussion along with if the cost is worth it or not. However the over all costs have not really changed much. 3 years ago I purchased a TiVo HD with lifetime for $500 it was a special deal and considered a great price, today I can buy a Premiere with lifetime for the same price or less.
> 
> ...


give it away and keep paying for the contract that im being held to?

after a year you could get a Tivo HD cheap, and still pay the low monthly fee, and I think most people here would admit that, and get a more stable box.the only reason allot of people bought the permire was because it was going to be improved upon,otherwise there was not much it offered over the TivoHD. I have no idea what your point is.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

sabixx said:


> give it away and keep paying for the contract that im being held to?
> 
> after a year you could get a Tivo HD cheap, and still pay the low monthly fee, and I think most people here would admit that, and get a more stable box.the only reason allot of people bought the permire was because it was going to be improved upon,otherwise there was not much it offered over the TivoHD. I have no idea what your point is.


I bought the Premiere primarily for the faster network speeds which it has delivered on unbelievably. The HDUI is nice other than speed (mine has been stable for at least 5 months) as are some of the other small additions. I am quite happy with Tivo at the moment.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

sabixx said:


> give it away and keep paying for the contract that im being held to?
> 
> after a year you could get a Tivo HD cheap, and still pay the low monthly fee, and I think most people here would admit that, and get a more stable box.the only reason allot of people bought the permire was because it was going to be improved upon,otherwise there was not much it offered over the TivoHD. I have no idea what your point is.


My point is either post facts that are correct or our stick to posting opinions.

Just clear up more of your info, I bought my Tivo HD after it had been out for 11 months and it was the first time it had been discounted at all and then only to those receiving discounts by email nothing posted on their site and it was also the first time lifetime became available. That's right for the first 11 months you couldn't just buy lifetime for a TiVo HD and no discount unless you got a promotional email. So after 11 months $500 with lifetime was the big deal and yes after 15+/- months the price did start to drop and discounts were more generally available. The Premiere has been available for under $500 with lifetime since near it's release date.

Thanks,


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

sabixx said:


> give it away and keep paying for the contract that im being held to?
> 
> after a year you could get a Tivo HD cheap, and still pay the low monthly fee, and I think most people here would admit that, and get a more stable box.the only reason allot of people bought the permire was because it was going to be improved upon,otherwise there was not much it offered over the TivoHD. I have no idea what your point is.


I think you should compare based on release and before the successor was announced, or your data become distorted by discounting. I bought the HD more than a year after it was released and paid $200 NIB, then $299 for the MSD Lifetime. The Premiere was bought as an upgrade, and cost $470 with lifetime. Now it would be $500 under the new plan.

For new subscribers, it works out to be very similar or slightly lower than before, where the MSD acounts for about $100 savings. There are other threads that detail pricing based on the new vs. old cost models, and they don't support the concept that TiVo is charging a lot more than before. They have changed the timing and the designation of money between hardware and service, making it look like the service costs more.

And sure, buying 7+ TiVos may not make sense to you, but perfect sense to me. My point was that dealing with TiVos and HTPC did not make sense to me. People need to make their own choices on what makes sense to them.

I don't claim to represent any part of the TiVo using world but myself.


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## Emacee (Dec 15, 2000)

I like the product. I don't much like the company and the way they do business. I use Tivo in spite of the company. I saw a documentary on Tivo (the company) a while back. They interviewed the president in his big corner office with a view. They showed a guy they called the inventor of Tivo in a cubicle. Apparently the bean counters took over at some point.

It's not that Tivo (the product) is so good. It's that the cable boxes are so bad. Tivo has done little to improve the product (hardware or software) since series 2 (besides adding HD in series 3). Mostly they keep looking for ways to add other "revenue streams" from so-called "partners." Those 3rd party bells and whistles add little value and do nothing to enhance Tivo's basic function. 

When (not if) Tivo (the company) goes under, I won't be shedding tears. The DVR is transition technology. The world is moving to on-demand programming. No need to record when you can stream or download. When that happens, all DVRs are obsolete. Tivos will be in attics with VCRs. Tivo is doing nothing to keep up with these changes. They won't evolve, so they deserve to become extinct.


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## TivoCentral (Jul 23, 2006)

A lot of people seem to be wrapped up in what will happen in the future (and being pretty negative about it) --- all I know is, I've been a TiVo customer for over 10 years, and it's always been a great service for me, and a great value.

Granted, it's an investment up front to get lifetime service. But everytime a new Series has come out, I've sold my old TiVos for nearly as much as I paid for the lifetime service originally, and that pays for most of my new Tivos.

Right now, I have 2 TiVo Premieres, and here's my math on each unit:

$136.96 TiVo Premiere (sale price on unit, plus tax)
$299.00 Lifetime Service (PLSR)
---------
$435.96

I've had them for a year, and compared to the $17.95 each I was paying for cable company DVRs, they'll be "paid off" in another year... After that, they'll be saving me money every month.

I agree there's a good chance that someday some kind of HTPC or other product may overtake TiVo, but for now, TiVo is the best (easy to use) service available, and the best value.

I also agree that $499/$399 is a lot for Lifetime Service, but 10 years ago, I thought the same thing about $199 for Lifetime for my Series 1...


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## Hogues92 (Jan 8, 2006)

TivoCentral said:


> 10 years ago, I thought the same thing about $199 for Lifetime for my Series 1...


Lol, so did I! I certainly did get my money's worth, though. I think that Emacee's point about the DVR in transition is a good point, though. Frankly, I have no idea what the market will look like five years from now. Comcast's new 4 turner (or maybe three tuner) DVR and software may turn out to be ok, Microsoft could deliver on their rumored x-box delivery system (or even score with the built in media center idea), or I could finally get local sports over the internet and cut the cable. There is so much potential that I don't think that the up front cost is worth it for me (and I stress the FOR ME part).


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## sabixx (Oct 20, 2010)

which Local sport can't you get over the internet? college sports?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

TivoCentral said:


> A lot of people seem to be wrapped up in what will happen in the future (and being pretty negative about it) --- all I know is, I've been a TiVo customer for over 10 years, and it's always been a great service for me, and a great value.
> 
> Granted, it's an investment up front to get lifetime service. But everytime a new Series has come out, I've sold my old TiVos for nearly as much as I paid for the lifetime service originally, and that pays for most of my new Tivos.


I've been a Tivo owner since they were first introduced. I bought my first HDR112 on sale for $99 and I think I paid another $99 for lifetime service (it could have been $199 but it's been so long ago I can't remember). I eventually sold it in favor of a couple of ReplayTV DVRs which I thought were far superior in every way. I was subscribed to DirecTV and the only way to record shows from satellite at that time was to use a separate receiver and a VCR or DVR. I bought a Hughes D-VHS VCR/ Dolby Digital DirecTV receiver combo that was the precursor to the DirecTivos. It allowed me to record the digital data stream directly to D-VHS tapes. It was a pain to use as the screen totally blanked when I tried to skip commercials. The tape actually unloaded and then went into fast forward so you had to guess where to stop it. There was no FF scan available.

When the series 1 DirecTivos came out I jumped on them as soon as I heard about them. That's when I really got hooked on Tivos. I upgraded and hacked more of these puppies than I can remember. We had the ability to transfer videos to our PC's long before Tivo-To-Go was available on the standalone models. When the HR10-250 models came out I snatched one up at the first opportunity to find any sort of a deal. They sold for $999 but I managed to find one for $900. Fortunately, I sold it for a modest sum before they became almost completely worthless, but I never came close to getting my investment back. Lifetime service was only available for a very short time on these boxes. The good news was that I only had to pay $5/month to DirecTV for an unlimited number of Tivos on my account, which I took good advantage of. I had to pay $5/month for each access card but it was way cheaper than using standalone Tivos.

When DirecTV introduced their own HD-DVR and started the transition to the new Ka/Ku band satellites I was near the end of a 2-year commitment and was trying to decide how to proceed with regards to using a DVR. The new DirecTV HD-DVR was extremely buggy at first and I was really nervous about getting into a long-term commitment for a device I may soon regret using. FIOS was just being introduced in my area so when I found out that it was available to my neighborhood I jumped on it because it meant that I could use the new S3 Tivo and also get great TV and internet service. The added bonus was that I could finally sever ties with Comcast and their crappy overpriced wideband service.

I've been perfectly content with my S3 Tivos since I bought them. I pre-paid for three years of service @ $199 and then got the $99 lifetime upgrade offer when the three years was over, which I took adsvantage of. I added a 2nd S3 to my account under the $6.95/month MSD plan fo three years as well and then discontinued it when the contract ended. I couldn't see paying $12.95/month for any DVR, especially one that I wasn't using all that often anymore. The rest of the family never really had any interest in the technology so the whole MRV setup never had any impact on our household. They were all content to use a set-top box so they could channel surf to their heart's content.

Both the HD and the Premiere looked like a step down compared to the S3. The extra bells and whistles that were being added didn't interest me and I didn't like the thought of giving up the front panel display that lets me know what's currently being recorded at a glance. The S3 had extra features that drove the price up, like the useless THX certification, but it was the only model available for recording from FIOS other than the POS Motorola box used by Verizon. I never felt an overwhelming need to upgrade to either box as they had little more to offer than what I already had, and the newer features weren't anything I considered essential to my viewing habits.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

sabixx said:


> which Local sport can't you get over the internet? college sports?


Oh please, don't get me started. There are tons of sports that you currently can't get over the net. There are valid reasons not to cut the cord, and sports/news are some of them. Plus, streaming live events sucks - I don't want to watch commercials, and the quality is usually nowhere near as good as what I can record.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I am really disappointed they didn't do more with the USB ports. It would have been cool to be able to add the panel displays with a remote IR receiver/display to the HD or Premiere for example.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

zalusky said:


> I am really disappointed they didn't do more with the USB ports. It would have been cool to be able to add the panel displays with a remote IR receiver/display to the HD or Premiere for example.


This where the hacking community comes into play. Tivo put all these abilities and interfaces on the box and then never activated them. It pisses off a lot of people when you add features that turn out to be just a tease.

The nice thing about Tivos is that they use Linux for the OS. There is a huge community of Linux users out there and an underground hacking community that is known only to a very few. They are the ones that were responsible for the killhdinitrd hack that allowed us to hack the HR10-250 and S2 Tivos without having to modify the PROM.

I seem to recall a hack that was done a few years back that added an LCD display to an S2 Tivo, but I don't recall which model it was. Chances are if you do enough research you might find a similar hack for the HD/Premiere models. The only issue is that Tivo has made each successive model more difficult to hack, which is another reason why I never migrated past the S3 model.

It's also the primary reason why I've migrated to an HTPC vs. a Tivo. I can tweak and modify the HTPC any way I like whereas the Tivo is still just a Tivo. I've learned that I can't sit around hoping that Tivo, Inc., may someday decide to incorporate the features I actually want. I've also learned that if you want something you sometimes have to take matters into your own hands if you ever expect to get it done. I like to push the envelope when it comes to DVRs and an HTPC allows me to do this with ease.


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## 1080p guy (Mar 29, 2011)

I second the complaint about using the "we" or "us" terms. The simple truth is "you" might not need be using Tivo if "you" think the alternatives to using a Tivo have pq at least as good as what you can get from your Tivo. I only watch HD programming. I saw an appreciable jump in HD pq when I started using my Tivo Premiere from using Comcast's Moto boxes. I have no idea why you would be using Tivo if you were'nt looking for better pq than you can get from your service providers boxes! The only complaint I had was navigating the HD menus ! (It took me all of about a week to figure out the HD menus ,now pay very close attention" are'nt necessary" !!) I'm enjoying the heck out of Tivo Premiere running through my(just recently added) DVDO Edge very nice indeed ! Pricing is determined by supply & demand. The "old" Tivo owners were too readily jumping ship (as you appear ready to) pricing increases are your fault (all you mutineers)


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## rdodolak (Dec 18, 2008)

1080p guy said:


> I second the complaint about using the "we" or "us" terms. The simple truth is "you" might not need be using Tivo if "you" think the alternatives to using a Tivo have pq at least as good as what you can get from your Tivo. I only watch HD programming. I saw an appreciable jump in HD pq when I started using my Tivo Premiere from using Comcast's Moto boxes. I have no idea why you would be using Tivo if you were'nt looking for better pq than you can get from your service providers boxes! The only complaint I had was navigating the HD menus ! (It took me all of about a week to figure out the HD menus ,now pay very close attention" are'nt necessary" !!) I'm enjoying the heck out of Tivo Premiere running through my(just recently added) DVDO Edge very nice indeed ! Pricing is determined by supply & demand. The "old" Tivo owners were too readily jumping ship (as you appear ready to) pricing increases are your fault (all you mutineers)


Why were old Tivo owners too readily jumping ship? If that is truely the case then there must be a valid reason for it. Surely, raising prices isn't going to fix the real underlying issue.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> I can count on two fingers the number of times I've had to pull the plug on my S3....


The same or less with my Premiere.

Of course I'm also not counting when I unplug it to take to my girlfriends house and unplugging it again to take home,


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## 1080p guy (Mar 29, 2011)

rdodolak said:


> Why were old Tivo owners too readily jumping ship? If that is truely the case then there must be a valid reason for it. Surely, raising prices isn't going to fix the real underlying issue.


When Tivo & Replay first came out the the service providers were'nt pushing they're own DVR boxes. I don't think they realized the kind of market that was available. If you bring out an item & market it for it's qualities of convience & ease of use only a very small percentage of the buyers ever appreciate the quality of what they have. How many people have HDTVs & don't really understand that HDTV only denotes the capabilities of the set & not the guaranteed output of their sets given the source material that is displayed on them. As I implied the early generation of Tivo owners were'nt driven to buy Tivos because of their quality they were replacing VCRs. Service providers DVRs (for the most part) are better than VCRs. Do these DVRs serve the same basic function as a Tivo. Yes, they do. I'm not even sure how good the early Tivos actually were. Now, we have Comcast or TWR or Warner offering DVR service for less than keeping the Tivo subscription & you are not buying the box. Gee, how many new customers do you think this takes away from Tivo. Exactly ! As hard as it may be to believe, some of us don't know what these issues that seem to be bothering others actually are because we really like our Tivos. Even if they offer to cut my cable bill to use their DVRs I don't want their DVRs(& of course the tuner inside them)


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## Hogues92 (Jan 8, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Oh please, don't get me started. There are tons of sports that you currently can't get over the net. There are valid reasons not to cut the cord, and sports/news are some of them. Plus, streaming live events sucks - I don't want to watch commercials, and the quality is usually nowhere near as good as what I can record.


Yeah, that's how I feel.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Here's an excerpt from the current Tivo pricing plan:
> 
> "2.2 For all other TiVo boxes, you may subscribe to the TiVo Service on a monthly basis for $12.95 a month with a one (1) year commitment (renews monthly after 1 year) or you may purchase a Product Lifetime Subscription (defined below) for a onetime fee of $499.99. "
> 
> ...


So lifetime on a used set is 500 bucks now? Ouch!


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

1080p guy said:


> When Tivo & Replay first came out the the service providers were'nt pushing they're own DVR boxes. I don't think they realized the kind of market that was available. If you bring out an item & market it for it's qualities of convience & ease of use only a very small percentage of the buyers ever appreciate the quality of what they have. How many people have HDTVs & don't really understand that HDTV only denotes the capabilities of the set & not the guaranteed output of their sets given the source material that is displayed on them. As I implied the early generation of Tivo owners were'nt driven to buy Tivos because of their quality they were replacing VCRs. Service providers DVRs (for the most part) are better than VCRs. Do these DVRs serve the same basic function as a Tivo. Yes, they do. I'm not even sure how good the early Tivos actually were. Now, we have Comcast or TWR or Warner offering DVR service for less than keeping the Tivo subscription & you are not buying the box. Gee, how many new customers do you think this takes away from Tivo. Exactly ! As hard as it may be to believe, some of us don't know what these issues that seem to be bothering others actually are because we really like our Tivos. Even if they offer to cut my cable bill to use their DVRs I don't want their DVRs(& of course the tuner inside them)


The cable companies are offering DVRs for less than the TiVo subscription rate, as you say, but if TiVo and/or Moxi or other 3rd party players fold, will that last? When TWC came out with their DVR, I was offered a year at a price a couple bucks a month higher than the HD box rental. Now, it's $12 higher the last time I checked.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lafos said:


> The cable companies are offering DVRs for less than the TiVo subscription rate, as you say, but if TiVo and/or Moxi or other 3rd party players fold, will that last? When TWC came out with their DVR, I was offered a year at a price a couple bucks a month higher than the HD box rental. Now, it's $12 higher the last time I checked.


Cable subscription rates will always go up. It's a fact of life. People want more and more features from their provider so it has to get paid for somehow. It takes years for a provider to recoup just the installation costs for getting the signal to your home, let alone the content they're providing. You got a DVR at an introductory price, which many providers offer just to get you hooked on it. You should have known it would go up at the end of that period. They figure you'll have gotten so used to using it that you wouldn't want to part with it.

And yes, I'm going to toot my horn one more time - that's the beauty of owning an HTPC. Program content aside, my monthly fees will never go up because I only pay for a single cablecard. I've dropped all of my premium channels yet I'm still able to stay current with all of my favorite shows on HBO and Showtime. All of my movies come on Blu-Ray discs from either NetFlix or RedBox, which costs me less than the monthly HBO/Cinemax subscription I had been paying for.


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if the Moxi or anything resembling a decent DVR could sell well then I would not even be here to care. As it is I find no decent alternative out there and indeed the OP is simply giving up on recording shows and moving on to Apple TV which seems to suit his needs but I find TiVo the best 3rd party DVR and the only company to even still be afloat. Hell, even Dish could not copy the TiVo DVR and sell them even with the added DISH features of sling box and so forth.
> 
> This forum keeps making the group think mistake that if TiVo just spent a boatload of resources to fix all the stuff we ***** about that some magical marketing spell will start moving them off the shelves. It simply is not so...


Zeo I am not simply "giving up," Tivo gave up on me. With low quality products, complex pricing promotions that confuse versus simplify, promises of updates for known issues that never come or take months to be implemented and finally Tivo has become a follower not a leader in the living room technology wars.

Tivo had access to the biggest resource of immediate consumer feedback, This website and this community. Tivo could be provided feedback almost in realtime on what is working and what is not. Did Tivo listen to the loyal fan base or the newbies who often posted to this site with their differing experiences. I think not. Tivo buried their collective heads in the sand and introduced market follower product that were not ready for primetime.

When the tides started to really turn with the introduction of the Premier Tivo. Tivo had the option to really look at this site, explore the issues that were being discussed (which happen to be the same issues being discussed on this thread today) and asked the simple question "what can we being doing different." Instead Tivo took the path of being reactive versus proactive, destroyed the goodwill with many of their longtime customers time and time again and finally introducing products to the open market that were not ready for primetime.

Thus Tivo doesn't stand a chance to survive, the company, the technology and the world has changed to much (not always for the better) since the original series 1 was introduced. Tivo has missed the boat and I for one am very sad since I WAS a huge Tivo fan but now I am over it and wish them luck as we all sit idle by and watch Tivo make the same mistakes day after day, month after month and year after year.

Do you hear that sound in the distant, "That is Tivo's swan song." So sad when Tivo could have been the Apple of the DVR market with a fan base that would walk through a brick wall to assure their success. That is no longer and soon Tivo will be no longer.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't agree - Tivo as a standalone box will probably disappear, but they will survive with their cable partnerships and collection of patents for quite some time. Tivo may get bought out at some point, but they'll be around for a long time if not.

I do agree that they seem to not be listening to their loyal customers now, and that's probably because they don't see a future in standalone boxes.


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> I don't agree - Tivo as a standalone box will probably disappear, but they will survive with their cable partnerships and collection of patents for quite some time. Tivo may get bought out at some point, but they'll be around for a long time if not.


Slowbiscuit; I agree with your perspective as well. But is that Tivo really surviving. We all know and love Tivo as the stand alone company that bucked the trends and offered a product that was second to not at the time. Cable companies were lightyears behind Tivo. As you mentioned Tivo most likely will get absorbed by another company and the software may live on for a period of time but Apple, Comcast, Charter, Roku, Etc are all proactively pinging their customers to create a product that works and address the needs of today. BTW all those companies have products on the drawing board that address the needs of tomorrow and so on because they understand they need to be leaders not followers.

So once again we will see Tivo go away. There will always be certain aspects of Tivo around due to patent issues but the hardware will go first, then parts of the software will go bye bye under the ownership of a new company and then finally anything related to the UI of the Tivo devices will soon be gone and Tivo will become the Palm of the DVR market.

That will be a sad day indeed and a day that I believe 3 years ago could have been avoided. Not so much anymore.


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> So, no promises, just a lot of hopefuls that people now feel entitled too. That's exactly what I thought.


I would like my Premier not to lock up. It does this once or twice a month with the green spinning circle. I would also like they to be in business 5 years from now.

If they could fix this I would be fine with the box as is. Would I like more streaming services and options and improvements? Sure. But for the most part it works well enough for me. I do think they should fix the HD interface so it is stable though and really dropped the ball there. Not too much to ask that the features it sells and advertised with actually work.


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## sac84371 (Jan 23, 2003)

jcondon said:


> I do think they should fix the HD interface so it is stable though and really dropped the ball there. Not too much to ask that the features it sells and advertised with actually work.


You are spot on and this has been an issue since day one of the launch of the Premiere. How many companies do you know that launch a product where the UI is not 100% functional which is still the case today. Yes, there are always minor tweaks to any UI that are needed after a product launch but not to the point of where the HD UI must be downgraded to the SD UI for many to make the Premier experience usable. What you are asking for is not a unreasonable request and in fact shouldn't have to be requested at all. The issues you are having should be resolved before the product is launched. If for some reason there is still bugs in the product when it is launched then Tivo should remedy asap. Still waiting......


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

The problem with Tivo's future is that we are moving toward on-demand programming. And eventually we won't have a need to time shift our programming any longer. It will all be on-demand. 

Tivo just won't be needed.

OTA and Satellite might be exceptions. Satellite is great at broadcasting, but doesn't have the bandwidth to do on-demand like cable afaik. Same thing with OTA. That's where Tivo would remain useful.

It doesn't seem like a question of if but of when. 

I look at FIOS and they have a lot of content on-demand. I don't need to setup season passes to quite a few shows. It's there. Ready for me to watch anytime.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

But FiOS VOD quality is still sub par. They still use MPEG 2 at 15mb/s for the VOD. Now their TV programming is not overly compressed like their VOD and offers some of the better quality available from network programming since it is not recompressed like many of the cable companies do. 
FiOS VOD leaves alot to be desired. Any flashes, quick movement or fast pans causes issues with it. If/when they move to MPEG4 for their VOD it should be much better.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

All VOD leaves a lot to be desired, whether because of quality or because you can't skip commercials. Streaming may be the future but if it means I can't time shift live events by an hour or so, I don't want it.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Not to mention unlike a recording, there is no guarantee the show or episode will be available when you go to watch it.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

What's the old saying?


> don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya


Whine elsewhere.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sac84371 said:


> You are spot on and this has been an issue since day one of the launch of the Premiere. How many companies do you know that launch a product where the UI is not 100% functional which is still the case today.


must resist urge to say Apple and/or Microsoft


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> must resist urge to say Apple and/or Microsoft


That's not a bug, that's a feature!


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> must resist urge to say Apple and/or Microsoft


Actually I would resist the urge to say Google, as in Google TV


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Actually I would resist the urge to say Google, as in Google TV


Not much discussion about it, but Google has emerged (IMO) as the best bet to buy Tivo. Given the networks crapping on GoogleTV, Google owning Tivo would give one access to all the content needed through a combination of recording and streaming. I could see a unified search actually working through multiple outlets and schedules like the Tivo has but higher powered with all of the Google partnerships out there.

THis would likely cause the content providers enough issue to relent on access to programming. After all, at least with online access, they can control ads unlike with recording.

Google/Tivo makes more sense than Apple/Tivo that was talked about around here so much (again, IMO).


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## anotherlab (Jun 23, 2005)

larrs said:


> Not much discussion about it, but Google has emerged (IMO) as the best bet to buy Tivo...


What would Google gain by purchasing TiVo? They already own one Linux derived OS with Android, they don't need the TiVo variant. It would also put them in the retail channel, something they historically prefer to avoid.

I never gave any credence to the rumors that Apple was interested in TiVo. Recording shows off the air would conflict with Apple selling or renting you those shows through iTunes.

Just out of curiosity, what has Google done that would make them be a likely suspect to buy TiVo?


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## Stuxnet (Feb 9, 2011)

anotherlab said:


> What would Google gain by purchasing TiVo


How about viewing data, targeted ads... that's Google's core business... selling ads, ads tailored to your interests, or ads that your habits suggest you might find interest... they are defining you by your behaviors, they are predicting your response by the behavior patterns of others... See for yourself.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Stuxnet said:


> How about viewing data, targeted ads... that's Google's core business... selling ads, ads tailored to your interests, or ads that your habits suggest you might find interest... they are defining you by your behaviors, they are predicting your response by the behavior patterns of others... See for yourself.


I always thought Tivo was missing a big boat in targeted ads. IE analyzing what you stop and watch and replacing ads with more of that stuff. Yea there is some carriage negotiation but they could work that out with cable companies they partner with. Just demoing how they slowed down the fast forward with more successful tailored ads would be big business an exactly what Google does.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

sabixx said:


> you built the pc,you installed the software,you set up the system,so its microsoft fault its bad?


I didn't say that. Read what I actually typed instead of strawmanning.

[quoet]I don't really get how you got to this line of thinking. you could of made it more quiet, you cant complain that its loud when you're not willing to correct it.[/quote]

That's the point. I don't want to put more time into it. I want it to work.



> if your Tivo can be that quiet, guess what, so can a pc,because the Tivo is just a pc running linux.


Wow, that was insightful. No wait...



> and I have no idea what 'specialty' hardware you could be talking about. you mean a tuner? which are like snapping in a video card,which anybody could do? whats so special about that? not to mention you can buy pcs with them built in....


Yeah, anybody can replace their video card...

Do you actually know any people IRL?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> That's the point. I don't want to put more time into it. I want it to work.


If you want it to work then you need to put more time into getting things right. It doesn't happen simply by wishing it. Neither does complaining about it. Your whole argument against HTPCs seems to be centered around the fact that you couldn't get yours working correctly and it's too noisy. It doesn't take a PC guru to set up a Media Center PC. Most people are able to install the software and follow a simple guide to have a stable, working HTPC. If you encounter problems then you need to identify what they are and take the appropriate corrective actions. It's no different than any other PC in that regard.

If your HTPC is too noisy then replace the stock fans with quieter ones. It's really just that simple. It only takes a couple minutes of your time to do the deed. Here's a list of devices that have fans that should be upgraded to reduce noise:

CPU cooler
Graphics card fan
Power supply
Case fan(s)

Stock CPU coolers are fine for a desktop PC but you should really consider a quiet aftermarket solution for an HTPC. Fans on graphics cards are notorious for being noisy, as are many stock case fans. All of the aforementioned coolers can easily be upgraded with quieter fans. For a quiet power supply, you will probably have to upgrade the PSU unless you don't mind doing a little surgery. If your PC case came with an included power supply then chances are it's a cheap supply and should be replaced anyway. Most bundled PSU/case combos aren't usually up to the task and also quite inefficient unless they're from a supplier like Antec or other name PSU manufacturer. Fan speed controls can also help squelch noisy fans by reducing the speed and cutting down the air flow. This should be done judiciously so as not to reduce the cooling such that the devices start overheating. Here's my favorite source for quiet PC product reviews:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/


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## puffy_fluff (Jun 2, 2011)

orangeboy said:


> Poorly written.


Is that a complete sentence?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

In case anyone's interested, I found this post at the Missing Remote that has several vendors selling the Ceton InfiniTV4 for well under $300. This now makes the InfiniTV4 a better deal than the upcoming SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime models. It also makes it even more cost competitive than a Tivo (one vendor has the InfiniTV4 for only $256 with free shipping). Two InfiniTV4's now cost less than a single Tivo Premiere with lifetime. That's a total of eight tuners with the Cetons vs. only two with a Premiere, and the Ceton tuners can be shared with any other PC in the house.

I figured it was just a matter of time before Ceton lowered their price to be competitive. I assume that Ceton has more than recouped their start-up costs with the number of tuners they've sold so far.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> ...I figured it was just a matter of time before Ceton lowered their price to be competitive. I assume that Ceton has more than recouped their start-up costs with the number of tuners they've sold so far.


Good price. I guess the upcoming competition scared them into it. I may have to look at this just to play with in conjunction with my Tivos and see how it works.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

larrs said:


> Good price. I guess the upcoming competition scared them into it. I may have to look at this just to play with in conjunction with my Tivos and see how it works.


The only issue which I still haven't found a solution for is unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a KMTTG type tool that can strip the WTV container to reveal the Mpeg2. You have to convert to DVR-MS first.

My original plan was to have a HTPC in one room and just strip the containers off recordings to pull the shows to my TiVos. I got tired of looking for a solution though since there didn't seem to be a simple solution.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> The only issue which I still haven't found a solution for is unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a KMTTG type tool that can strip the WTV container to reveal the Mpeg2. You have to convert to DVR-MS first.
> 
> My original plan was to have a HTPC in one room and just strip the containers off recordings to pull the shows to my TiVos. I got tired of looking for a solution though since there didn't seem to be a simple solution.


I thought VideoRedo would handle it?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

larrs said:


> I thought VideoRedo would handle it?


It might. I was just looking for something free and lightweight. I don't care about editing out commercials since I watch and delete.

I also wasn't a huge fan of the naming structure and couldn't find a way to easily convert the name without having to do every file manually.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The latest version of VideoReDo will handle wtv files directly. I've got a wtv conversion tool that will do bulk conversions of wtv files to dvr-ms format that I downloaded via The Green Button forums. I'm on vacation this week and I don't have access to my main PC but if I find the link I'll post it.

Found it:

http://mctvconverter.vivolum.net/


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