# New Apple TV and Tivo



## naftalim (Dec 3, 2007)

I'm curious what Tivo owners think of the new Apple TV services and if they compete/complement what we have now. I don't have HD as I am using the Series 2DT in Canada. I can see using them both, Tivo for the flexibility in terms of the interface, recording Live TV, TivoToComeBack etc and Apple TV for rentals (Amazon unboxed not available in Canada as well) and HD rentals.

Thoughts?


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

Theres' basically no overlap in primary use. Tivo is a DVR for managing broadcast / cable shows. AppleTV is a movie rental and viewing system.


----------



## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

I have a Tivo S3 and bought an Apple TV today. I can't wait to start watching HD movie rentals.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

I can already rent HD movies through my Xbox so it isn't that interesting to me. If I owned nothing but Apple computers and phones, then it might be worth it, but for one ipod, I can't see buying it.


----------



## jbrasure (Jan 1, 2007)

rainwater said:


> I can already rent HD movies through my Xbox so it isn't that interesting to me. If I owned nothing but Apple computers and phones, then it might be worth it, but for one ipod, I can't see buying it.


Keep in mind the AppleTV works with Windows PC's as well.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jbrasure said:


> Keep in mind the AppleTV works with Windows PC's as well.


The new version doesn't need a PC or Mac to operate. I guess you can still sync/stream from other iTunes but again that isn't that interesting to me. HD content can only be purchased directly from the Apple TV. You can buy it from iTunes on your computer.


----------



## Jiffylush (Oct 31, 2006)

Complimentary to a TiVo, competition for Unbox (which sucks imho). The deathknell for Vudu.

I wish it was higher quality HD (current files are 5Gb), I also wish there wasn't the 30 day wait for new releases.


----------



## kas25 (Mar 10, 2003)

Jiffylush said:


> Complimentary to a TiVo, competition for Unbox (which sucks imho). The deathknell for Vudu.
> 
> I wish it was higher quality HD (current files are 5Gb), I also wish there wasn't the 30 day wait for new releases.


Agree with all comments. This makes Unbox obsolete for me until they get HD and widescreen formatting. I'm sure its in the works if they are serious about this. Assuming they do and couple that with the fact that Amazon will have much more DRM free music than Itunes and you have 2 major players in the digital media market. All others will be gone but at least Itunes will lose its monopoly.


----------



## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

Jiffylush said:


> Complimentary to a TiVo, competition for Unbox (which sucks imho). The deathknell for Vudu.
> 
> I wish it was higher quality HD (current files are 5Gb), I also wish there wasn't the 30 day wait for new releases.


iTunes HD movies are at 720p. The same as Xbox Live.


----------



## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

kas25 said:


> Agree with all comments. This makes Unbox obsolete for me until they get HD and widescreen formatting. I'm sure its in the works if they are serious about this. Assuming they do and couple that with the fact that Amazon will have much more DRM free music than Itunes and you have 2 major players in the digital media market. All others will be gone but at least Itunes will lose its monopoly.


Amazon will have a very hard time getting HD downloads to a PC. The movie studios are afraid of people stripping out the DRM on a PC and having full HD digital copies of their films. That is why HD downloads are limited to set top boxes. (Xbox 360 and AppleTV.)


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Carlos_E said:


> Amazon will have a very hard time getting HD downloads to a PC. The movie studios are afraid of people stripping out the DRM on a PC and having full HD digital copies of their films. That is why HD downloads are limited to set top boxes. (Xbox 360 and AppleTV.)


Actually other than the HD rentals to the AppleTV, Apple's service really isn't that different from Amazon's. Both can purchase to PC and both can put purchases/rentals on portable devices. See this page.

That said TiVo really needs to get MPEG-4 decoding working on the HD TiVo models ASAP since that's the only realistic way to get HD video downloads working with current consumer bandwidth.


----------



## Goontoe (Jan 7, 2002)

Does anyone know if the Apple TV movies have closed captioning?


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Jiffylush said:


> Complimentary to a TiVo,


Tivo thanks you for the compliment.


----------



## naftalim (Dec 3, 2007)

As usual, HD rentals won't be available in Canada till who knows when


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Carlos_E said:


> Amazon will have a very hard time getting HD downloads to a PC. The movie studios are afraid of people stripping out the DRM on a PC and having full HD digital copies of their films. That is why HD downloads are limited to set top boxes. (Xbox 360 and AppleTV.)


Amazon could do what Apple was forced to do by the studios. Only allow download of HD movies to a "protected" device. For Unbox that could mean HD rentals only for TiVo (does Unbox have any other "set top box" partners?). I agree with the poster above that said this means TiVo needs to get MPEG4/H.264 decoding working on the S3/HD, otherwise the files will be entirely too large.


----------



## gargoyle999 (Oct 28, 2006)

I have two S3's and just purchased an Apple TV yesterday. I actually want to use it for linking to Itunes and getting a lot more podcast access.

I use Blockbuster online for DVD's so won't be a big user of the movie rentals. But I'll try some HD downloads anyway just to check it out.


----------



## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

The AppleTV Take 2 software update is out and it supports 1080p output.


----------



## jbrasure (Jan 1, 2007)

Holy cow. I just watched part of Transformers in HD on the Apple TV. The quality is WAY beyond Amazon Unbox.


----------



## mikesown (Nov 15, 2005)

Here's my view: right now, this means almost nothing to Tivo, but it gradually will mean more and more. As of now, the selection of movies/TV shows on &#63743;TV is meager at best, and the price is not right($1.99 for a TV show which I can get for free OTA?). I think &#63743; will cozy up with the media companies and offer some kind of subscription service(think $50/mo all-you-can-eat media package). This would help both the studios(continued revenue stream) and &#63743;, which would sell more &#63743;TVs. So, watch out. &#63743; will have some big offerings within the next year or two!


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jbrasure said:


> Holy cow. I just watched part of Transformers in HD on the Apple TV. The quality is WAY beyond Amazon Unbox.


Not a big surprise. 

Amazon/TiVo needs to get HD downloads going...


----------



## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Amazon/TiVo needs to get HD downloads going...


They'd do better with some quality in SD downloads. The Apple TV SD blows away completely the Unbox ones. The quality of Unbox is the main reason I haven't bothered very much with it.


----------



## Seattle (Dec 13, 2001)

I ordered an Apple TV last week and it just showed up today. I downloaded the update and picture quality is very good.


----------



## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

MickeS said:


> Not a big surprise.
> 
> Amazon/TiVo needs to get HD downloads going...


Or TiVO needs to partner with Apple to be able to d/l movies from their servers. But, apple doesn't like to play this way... they wont' share their DRM. But, since the AppleTV device is a loss leader it might be in there interest to get a "built in" new audience for their video d/l purchases.

The other issue with Apple, if I understand is if you buy a digital item you can not easily download it. However, Amazon Unbox stores your purchased video/music in "Your Media Library" and you can redownload it at any time.

BOb


----------



## Gerhard (Sep 29, 2002)

So, my thoughts on the *Uprgraded* AppleTV:

I'm going to stick with my original statment that the AppleTV is really just a glorified iPod.

All the unit was really good for when I originally purchased it was as a cache for my 60GB of music.

The movies display at 720P, so on an 1080i/p screen... you get nice 4 inch black lines on the top or the bottom of the screen.

There are few newer titles in HD, the majority of them titles available are old movies that have been converted into HD. There is a significant amount of SDTV shows, and movies.

Basically, the appleTV is really a neat product with HORRIBLE execution:

1) Low number of HD movies
2) Primarily a SDTV unit
3) No full frame rate 720P
4) Extremely low number of NEW HD movies.

Its a so-so experience...


----------



## ForrestB (Apr 8, 2004)

On both of my HDTV's, both 720p and 1080i fill the screen. If you're seeing black bars on the top and bottom, then the movie you're watching is probably not 16:9.


----------



## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

Yep, if it's 720p then it should take up the full screen. Sounds like you were watching SD in widescreen format.

I just ordered an Apple TV 160GB unit. They just rolled out HD content so of course it's lacking right now. The said specifically in their announcement that Apple TV would eventually have all the new releases within 30 days of the DVD release. The number of HD movies is just going to keep growing.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Gerhard said:


> The movies display at 720P, so on an 1080i/p screen... you get nice 4 inch black lines on the top or the bottom of the screen.


Theatrical movies aren't normally 16:9 (aspect ratio of 1.77:1). Aspect ratios of 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 are pretty common, and wider formats have been used in the past. These wider formats will be letterboxed, even in widescreen HD. A "scope" movie with 2:35:1 or 2:39:1 aspect will result in bars about the size you describe.

720p and 1080i/p, despite having different pixel resolutions, are both 16:9 formats and should both fill your screen, assuming the source video is also 16:9 when mastered.


----------



## isbellHFh (Nov 6, 2003)

Gerhard said:


> I'm going to stick with my original statment that the AppleTV is really just a glorified iPod.


That's right, and that's not a bad thing to be.

Of course, it's actually an iPod with a very nice interface, ethernet, and 720p HD video. It's a perfect complement to a TiVo. ATV Take II has an even better interface, and supports 1080p out.

Actually, in my case, working out the pricing, it makes a lot of sense to get a minimal cable or satellite package, get OTA HD for free and buy the occasional show that is out of my package.

Peace.


----------



## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Gerhard said:


> I'm going to stick with my original statment that the AppleTV is really just a glorified iPod.


You say that like its a bad thing. That was what it was supposed to be "an iPod for your TV" was how I'd heard it described.

The take 2 release actually isn't that good at being an iPod, your own content is demoted to a menu item below all the rental content. I do like the rental facilities though.


> The movies display at 720P, so on an 1080i/p screen... you get nice 4 inch black lines on the top or the bottom of the screen.


As pointed out, it sounds like you have a 2.35:1 format movie. I can't believe you've never seen that before with every other delivery system. If you've never seen it, someone's been messing with your content.


> 1) Low number of HD movies


The number of HD movies, and movies in general is only going to get better over time. It does take some time and effort to get content in the right format. Has any other system launched with more HD movies?

Also the quality of the SD movies is pretty good, much better than any other system I've tried. I'm not that worried about getting an HD vs SD version. SD is more convenient in that my net connection can more than cope with SD bit rates so I can watch it immediatly (within 45 seconds of ordering), I need to let HD movies get ahead by about half an hour before I can start watching.


----------



## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

I watched my first movie today. it looked great. I'm very happy with the Apple TV.


----------



## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

btwyx said:


> ... The take 2 release actually isn't that good at being an iPod, your own content is demoted to a menu item below all the rental content. I do like the rental facilities though. ...


Agreed. I was surprised to see this, and quite frankly disappointed. The way I see it, Apple has changed ATV's primary functionality into a portal to the iTunes store.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

btwyx said:


> The take 2 release actually isn't that good at being an iPod, your own content is demoted to a menu item below all the rental content.


Since once you go to my movies or shared movies, it remembers it, and goes their automatically, i'd actually put it that the rental content is demoted to being above my content.

-smak-


----------



## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

For me personally, these download services are a rip off. $4 for an SD movie or $5 for HD? That's a joke compared to Netflix, and besides being much cheaper, Netflix gives you higher quality video with extras.

As it is now, I've rented a few times on my Tivo, but only when movies are on sale for 99&#162;. I wouldn't go above about $250 and still consider it.

For me personally, the iTunes' system seems marginally better than what the Tivo does, but Tivo's downloads are nearly as good, and that's just a tiny fraction of what the unit does. From that perspective, I think the Apple TV is kind of pathetic. But...moot point as they're both rip offs compared to Netflix (or of course recording stuff with your Tivo!)


----------



## dorian (Feb 16, 2008)

Puppy76 said:


> For me personally, these download services are a rip off. $4 for an SD movie or $5 for HD? That's a joke compared to Netflix, and besides being much cheaper, Netflix gives you higher quality video with extras.


Does Netflix deliver in HD? I usually sit at my computer and watch Instant Netflix on a 24" monitor while my wife is watching her reality shows on television but I never really noticed if they were truly HD or not. If they are, its time to hook up my computer to the big screen. (Netflix is great for sitting down and catching a whole season of shows like "The L Word" and "Dexter" over a long weekend.)


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Apple is now offering 99 cent weekly specials like Amazon used to do. Except Apple's special runs from Thursday to Sunday while Amazon's ran from Friday to Sunday.

Amazon better get in gear at some point if they want to compete.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

dorian said:


> Does Netflix deliver in HD?


Yes they do. All you have to do is set the option to get HD-DVD or Blu Ray (though they are phasing out HD DVD). And you get real HD instead of the "HD" Apple TV is offering.


----------



## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

rainwater said:


> Yes they do. All you have to do is set the option to get HD-DVD or Blu Ray (though they are phasing out HD DVD). And you get real HD instead of the "HD" Apple TV is offering.


Not to mention it's way way way way cheaper, and you get the extras, etc.


----------



## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

dorian said:


> Does Netflix deliver in HD? I usually sit at my computer and watch Instant Netflix on a 24" monitor while my wife is watching her reality shows on television but I never really noticed if they were truly HD or not. If they are, its time to hook up my computer to the big screen. (Netflix is great for sitting down and catching a whole season of shows like "The L Word" and "Dexter" over a long weekend.)


Netflix downloads are not HD.


----------



## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Yeah, they're <DVD, but they still look fine on an HDTV I think. (Assuming your connection can stream at the fastest speed, not sure how it would look otherwise.)


----------



## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

rainwater said:


> And you get real HD instead of the "HD" Apple TV is offering.


I still do not understand this statement. Are you saying that if someone has Comcast Cable, and they are watching a HD channel through a HD Receiver or S3/Tivo HD, that is not real HD? It seems like your definition of "real" HD has to come from an HD-DVD player or Blu-ray player, nothing else.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

brettatk said:


> I still do not understand this statement. Are you saying that if someone has Comcast Cable, and they are watching a HD channel through a HD Receiver or S3/Tivo HD, that is not real HD? It seems like your definition of HD has to be either from an HD-DVD player or Blu-ray player, nothing else.


For something to be in HD, all it needs is to have a vertical resolution of more than 480 lines. So technically a 1280x720p video running at 1 fps is in HD.

I believe his point was that Apple TV will be "HD" in the technical sense, but it might not look good depending on compression and bitrates.


----------



## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

morac said:


> For something to be in HD, all it needs is to have a vertical resolution of more than 480 lines. So technically a 1280x720p video running at 1 fps is in HD.
> 
> I believe his point was that Apple TV will be "HD" in the technical sense, but it might not look good depending on compression and bitrates.


I rented a HD movie on my new ATV over the weekend and the quality is *just as good* as any HD content I've seen using my cable's HD Receiver or my Tivo HD. There was no artifacting, choppy video, etc. If he considers this not to be "HD" then I guess there arent any cable providers out there that offer "HD" as he defines it.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

brettatk said:


> I rented a HD movie on my new ATV over the weekend and the quality is *just as good* as any HD content I've seen using my cable's HD Receiver or my Tivo HD.


That isn't possible at the moment. ATV HD videos are compressed in order to provide a almost real-time viewing. If Apple didn't compress the file, the file size would be so huge, it would take much more time to download it. Compared to Blu Ray or uncompressed OTA HD, there is no comparison.


----------



## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

brettatk said:


> I still do not understand this statement. Are you saying that if someone has Comcast Cable, and they are watching a HD channel through a HD Receiver or S3/Tivo HD, that is not real HD? It seems like your definition of "real" HD has to come from an HD-DVD player or Blu-ray player, nothing else.


The point is Apple's HD is far, far, far below the quality offered by Blu Ray, or potentially OTA HDTV depending on bit rates, etc.

You're paying more to rent something under more annoying rental terms with lower quality video/audio and no extras.

So basically...what's the point?


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

rainwater said:


> That isn't possible at the moment. ATV HD videos are compressed in order to provide a almost real-time viewing. If Apple didn't compress the file, the file size would be so huge, it would take much more time to download it. Compared to Blu Ray or uncompressed OTA HD, there is no comparison.


There is no such thing as uncompressed OTA HD.


----------



## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

Puppy76 said:


> The point is Apple's HD is far, far, far below the quality offered by Blu Ray, or potentially OTA HDTV depending on bit rates, etc.
> 
> You're paying more to rent something under more annoying rental terms with lower quality video/audio and no extras.
> 
> So basically...what's the point?


What's the point? Convenience!

You don't have to wait for the "long wait" in your Netflix queue. The average consumer will pick convenience with slightly less quality over having to wait for Netflix.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/ar...tv-20-vs-blu-ray-dvd-hd-cable-the-comparison/

This was posted in Happy Hour a while ago... shows the quality of AppleTV compared to OTA, BD and DVD.

AppleTV slightly beats DVD and compressed cable HD, but is nowhere close BD.

AppleTV is essentially just upconverted DVD, IMO, in order to get the "HD" label in there (and don't get me started on cable and their "HD").


----------



## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> There is no such thing as uncompressed OTA HD.


They might have meant ATSC that's not further compressed by a cable company (as some apparently do?)



Carlos_E said:


> What's the point? Convenience!
> 
> You don't have to wait for the "long wait" in your Netflix queue. The average consumer will pick convenience with slightly less quality over having to wait for Netflix.


The average consumer has never even heard of AppleTV, but I sure hope people aren't that ridiculous. Paying more for much lower quality video, no extras, short viewing time, all so that you can start watching right away versus planning ahead a whole day?


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> There is no such thing as uncompressed OTA HD.


Yes, that was my point.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Puppy76 said:


> The average consumer has never even heard of AppleTV, but I sure hope people aren't that ridiculous. Paying more for much lower quality video, no extras, short viewing time, all so that you can start watching right away versus planning ahead a whole day?


I'm not convinced the average consumer will think the quality is much lower. And the average consumer will certainly pay for this type convenience. They already do in so many other things in their lives. I am VERY interested in on-demand or near on demand delivery of video content.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> I'm not convinced the average consumer will think the quality is much lower. And the average consumer will certainly pay for this type convenience. They already do in so many other things in their lives. I am VERY interested in on-demand or near on demand delivery of video content.


I think the price is more of a turn off than the quality (along with only 24 hours to watch). You are right that the average consumer doesn't care about the quality as much as people make it seem. But when you can get Netflix for the price of 2 ATV rentals, it doesn't seem like such a good deal anymore. With Netflix, you can get unlimited monthly rentals along with Blu Ray. Until these online services find a better pricing model, I don't see using them for my major movie watching needs.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

rainwater said:


> I think the price is more of a turn off than the quality (along with only 24 hours to watch). You are right that the average consumer doesn't care about the quality as much as people make it seem. But when you can get Netflix for the price of 2 ATV rentals, it doesn't seem like such a good deal anymore. With Netflix, you can get unlimited monthly rentals along with Blu Ray. Until these online services find a better pricing model, I don't see using them for my major movie watching needs.


I don't think the price is too out of line. It's the same as what I would pay at Blockbuster. I don't watch enough movies anymore to justify Netflix (used to subscribe years ago). Also, the unit is less than BluRay disk player.

And Netflix still has a wait. If I want something RIGHT NOW, I can't get it. I gotta wait. And again, I think people will pay for the instant gratification. I'm sure lots of people said "iPod and iTunes music store will never work. People can just buy the CD then rip it"


----------



## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

At worst Netflix is $5 for two discs that you can basically spend a couple of weeks watching. Versus $4 for something that has to be finished in 24 hours, has no extras, and lower quality...

Heck, by those standards Netflix is a better deal even if you only watch one film a month. If you rent two, it destroys Apple's service.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Puppy76 said:


> The average consumer has never even heard of AppleTV, but I sure hope people aren't that ridiculous. Paying more for much lower quality video, no extras, short viewing time, all so that you can start watching right away versus planning ahead a whole day?


Many people watch movies and TV shows on YouTube. So price will frequently win out over quality.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> I don't think the price is too out of line. It's the same as what I would pay at Blockbuster. I don't watch enough movies anymore to justify Netflix (used to subscribe years ago). Also, the unit is less than BluRay disk player.
> 
> And Netflix still has a wait. If I want something RIGHT NOW, I can't get it. I gotta wait. And again, I think people will pay for the instant gratification. I'm sure lots of people said "iPod and iTunes music store will never work. People can just buy the CD then rip it"


The difference with the iPod and music is you get to keep the content. Digital movie rentals still haven't taken off like many people predicted. I have a Netflix subscription and still use Unbox every now and then when they have specials. However, I get my Netflix dvds the next day, so it is still pretty instant for me. For the person who watches 2 or 3 movies a month, maybe the iTunes/Unbox rentals work for them, but for the rest, the pricing scheme favors Netflix.


----------



## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

Maybe if you captured both screen shots and zoomed in you could tell the difference. To the naked eye there was *no difference* in the HD movie I watched on *ATV* and the one I watched the other night on *HBOHD*. Argue all you want I'm just telling what I have seen first hand.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

rainwater said:


> The difference with the iPod and music is you get to keep the content. Digital movie rentals still haven't taken off like many people predicted. I have a Netflix subscription and still use Unbox every now and then when they have specials. However, I get my Netflix dvds the next day, so it is still pretty instant for me. For the person who watches 2 or 3 movies a month, maybe the iTunes/Unbox rentals work for them, but for the rest, the pricing scheme favors Netflix.


digital rentals just started two weeks ago with Apple TV.. to early to say it hasn't worked. Also, you can still BUY movies from iTunes store, as well as TV shows. (except HD. the only way t oget HD movies is rental via the Apple TV). And then there is all the other stuff the box can do.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> digital rentals just started two weeks ago with Apple TV.. to early to say it hasn't worked. Also, you can still BUY movies from iTunes store, as well as TV shows. (except HD. the only way t oget HD movies is rental via the Apple TV). And then there is all the other stuff the box can do.


I'm not referring to just Apple but all of the digital movie distribution services. Btw, the reason Apple is offering rentals is because nobody was buying movies through iTunes. Even Steve Jobs said this. Like I said, its not about quality, but more about price and restrictions holding people back.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

rainwater said:


> I'm not referring to just Apple but all of the digital movie distribution services. Btw, the reason Apple is offering rentals is because nobody was buying movies through iTunes. Even Steve Jobs said this. Like I said, its not about quality, but more about price and restrictions holding people back.


it's all too early for everyone. You can't say at this point that the model of on-demand downloadable rental content won't work or isn't wanted. Netflix didn't get super huge over night. It took time. They first started renting movies just like a video store. You paid per movie. There was no flat fee for "unlimited" movies. Then they changed the model and offered that. Then they dropped the pay per movie option and went to flat fee. Then it took off. Give the download people (Amazon, Apple, etc.) a chance.


----------



## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

rainwater said:


> The difference with the iPod and music is you get to keep the content. Digital movie rentals still haven't taken off like many people predicted. I have a Netflix subscription and still use Unbox every now and then when they have specials. However, I get my Netflix dvds the next day, so it is still pretty instant for me. For the person who watches 2 or 3 movies a month, maybe the iTunes/Unbox rentals work for them, but for the rest, the pricing scheme favors Netflix.


Even 2 movies a month still massively favors Netflix in price. The only time it's comparable is if you only watch a single disc per month. Even then, for $1 extra you get to take your time watching, get extras, and higher quality (and a better selection too).



morac said:


> Many people watch movies and TV shows on YouTube. So price will frequently win out over quality.


First of all, that's illegal, but beyond that, price MASSIVELY favors Netflix. I think price is more important overall than quality too (within reason) but Netflix wins BOTH easily.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> it's all too early for everyone. You can't say at this point that the model of on-demand downloadable rental content won't work or isn't wanted. Netflix didn't get super huge over night. It took time. They first started renting movies just like a video store. You paid per movie. There was no flat fee for "unlimited" movies. Then they changed the model and offered that. Then they dropped the pay per movie option and went to flat fee. Then it took off. Give the download people (Amazon, Apple, etc.) a chance.


yep. I joined Netflix right when they went to a monthly sub but at that time they had no good East Coast distribution. I snet in a couple of complaints on the time it took for turn around and finally dropped it. Then I tried it again about 3 years ago as I read about operating East Coast Distribution centers. It has gotten nothing but better since then.

I will say that I would use UNBOX more if they convinced the content owners to expand the 24 hour window. I might be more inclined to get some movies that way for the weekend then. I need a monthly sub price though to move off of Netflix, no question about it. In fact I would rather see TiVo figure out some way to include Netflix streaming versus UNBOX pay per download and 24 hours only.

I am checking out a hulu beta right now. Streaming TV shows on my PC for FREE and they throw in some 30 sec. ads now and then. The interface is VERY good and highly useable for picking up thing to watch and how you watch them. No client or DRM to load up either. :up: Once they work on the quality of the streaming they will really have something - and that quality is most likely just related to how much hardware and outgoing bandwidth they have.

It looks like streaming is gaining some great traction as it avoids all the download license hassle. I hope TiVo is wroking on how to have things "stream" to it.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> it's all too early for everyone. You can't say at this point that the model of on-demand downloadable rental content won't work or isn't wanted. Netflix didn't get super huge over night. It took time.


I didn't say it will never work. But Apple TV isn't going to work anytime soon on any large scale. I can only name one actual person I know that has an Apple TV. Of the rest of the people, I don't know anyone who has told me they were going to get an Apple TV. The Apple TV tries to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Most people I know are happy with Netflix or the local video store. People that have TiVos might rent an Unbox movie, but they are not going to buy a TiVo so they can do this. It is just a convenience that already exist. The Apple TV isn't such an item yet.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

rainwater said:


> I didn't say it will never work. But Apple TV isn't going to work anytime soon on any large scale. I can only name one actual person I know that has an Apple TV.


For your one, I know many. Several of those have had them for a year.



People used to be happy with the video store. They were happy with buying music on CDs at the local store. Then Netflix came along, and people used it. And they started to download music from iTunes. This is just the next step.


----------



## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

rainwater said:


> I didn't say it will never work. But Apple TV isn't going to work anytime soon on any large scale. I can only name one actual person I know that has an Apple TV. Of the rest of the people, I don't know anyone who has told me they were going to get an Apple TV. The Apple TV tries to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Most people I know are happy with Netflix or the local video store. People that have TiVos might rent an Unbox movie, but they are not going to buy a TiVo so they can do this. It is just a convenience that already exist. The Apple TV isn't such an item yet.


I've seen many people on here say they've already bought or have gone out and bought a Apple TV once version 2 was released and many more say they plan to buy one. This is just a small sample. I believe they are selling more units than you wish to believe.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> For your one, I know many.
> 
> 
> 
> People used to be happy with the video store. They were happy with buying music on CDs at the local store. Then Netflix came along, and people used it. And they started to download music from iTunes. This is just the next step.


The next step is spending $200 to get a box that basically serves as just a VOD box? I'm sorry, I am not buying that just yet. Yes, there will be small groups of people that this appeals to. But there's no way it will reach the masses anytime soon.


----------



## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

rainwater said:


> The next step is spending $200 to get a box that basically serves as just a VOD box? I'm sorry, I am not buying that just yet. Yes, there will be small groups of people that this appeals to. But there's no way it will reach the masses anytime soon.


If you plan on using Netflix or your local video store for HD rentals, do you not have to go out and buy a $400 Blu-ray player?


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

rainwater said:


> The next step is spending $200 to get a box that basically serves as just a VOD box? I'm sorry, I am not buying that just yet. Yes, there will be small groups of people that this appeals to. But there's no way it will reach the masses anytime soon.


it's more than a VOD box. But you already knew that.

will it be in every household? I dunno. But I still say you are wrong when you think everyone is content with BB and Netflix and coesn't want something else. People used to be content with just three boradcast networks. Why do you think people have suddenly stopped wanting anything new?


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> it's more than a VOD box. But you already knew that.
> 
> will it be in every household? I dunno. But I still say you are wrong when you think everyone is content with BB and Netflix and coesn't want something else. People used to be content with just three boradcast networks. Why do you think people have suddenly stopped wanting anything new?


I'm sure a lot of people might want an Apple TV (although from my experience very few people who don't keep up with tech even know what it is). However, I don't see people spending $200 for it anytime soon. How is it more than a VOD box? You can view video podcasts? That has no mass appeal as of yet. I'm not saying the Apple TV isn't nice, but I don't see much demand for it. Even Steve Jobs called it a disappointment. If the box acted as a DVR, then it would probably fly off the shelves.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

brettatk said:


> If you plan on using Netflix or your local video store for HD rentals, do you not have to go out and buy a $400 Blu-ray player?


Not if you already have a PS3 or Xbox HD-DVD addon (although it is almost extinct now). However, I would imagine more people would buy a standalone player that is also a up-converting DVD player instead of an Apple TV. Actually, I don't have to imagine, the sales are not even close. The fact is people are more than willing to spend twice as much for a Blu-ray player than a Apple TV. However, both at this point are not selling to the masses. The Blu Ray player will have to reach the $100 price point before that happens and I think the Apple TV will have to drop its price to something close to that level as well.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I don't understand why this has to be an either/or, Netflix vs. Apple TV discussion. I have a Netflix subscription AND I also have an Apple TV. I get most of my movies from Netflix, but if I'm sitting at home on the weekend and get the urge to watch "3:10 to Yuma", and it's available on my Apple TV for instant download, I might choose to go ahead and get it, rather than wait for it to come in the mail. Sure, it's not cost effective, and it's not "true" HD, but that's my choice to make. And I don't see why having a choice is bad.


----------



## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

rainwater said:


> I didn't say it will never work. But Apple TV isn't going to work anytime soon on any large scale. I can only name one actual person I know that has an Apple TV. Of the rest of the people, I don't know anyone who has told me they were going to get an Apple TV. The Apple TV tries to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Most people I know are happy with Netflix or the local video store. People that have TiVos might rent an Unbox movie, but they are not going to buy a TiVo so they can do this. It is just a convenience that already exist. The Apple TV isn't such an item yet.


I think you are seeing the leading edge of this technology shift. Buying movies on disc will exist for some time like CD's today, they will become less and less relevant. I can only name one person I know who has a Tivo, by the way.

The best thing for me right now is recording great films on HDNet on my TivoHD. No discs. No fees. No nonsense. The electronic delivery by AppleTV is the same concept for me except I get to _choose_ what great film I'm going to watch. Convenience and choice are what drives this product.


----------



## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

To AppleTV owners. Is the 40GB model sufficient? They have a 160GB model. I will mostly rent films and watch some podcasts. Do the podcasts stay on your computer?


----------



## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

It's only a matter of time until Blu-Ray fizzles out as well. Physical media is dying. Some theorize Microsoft backed HD-DVD to throw a monkey wrench in Sony's path to stall long enough for the digital delivery technology to catch up. That said, I'll be buying a Blu-Ray player soon enough.


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Why not go with D-VHS instead? It offers higher bit rates than Blue-Ray, HD-DVD, Satellite, cable and OTA!


----------



## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

Unix_Beard said:


> To AppleTV owners. Is the 40GB model sufficient? They have a 160GB model. I will mostly rent films and watch some podcasts. Do the podcasts stay on your computer?


I chose to get the 160GB model. Now that I have it I could have easily gotten by with the 40GB. Right now I sync all my music and plan to stream all my movies (dvd's I've backed up and encoded). That way the movies will not be taking up space on the ATV. My PC's hard drive is 250GB though, so I have plenty of storage room on it. I might even change my mind and sync all my movies as well depending on the final size of the directory.

So back to your question. If you can swing the 160GB then it wouldnt hurt. You will have plenty of room to grow. But if you can only afford the 40GB right now I think you would be ok. Plus you could always upgrade the internal drive in the future if needed.


----------



## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

ciper said:


> Why not go with D-VHS instead? It offers higher bit rates than Blue-Ray, HD-DVD, Satellite, cable and OTA!


I just double checked, and no, it dosen't have a higher bit rate than Blu Ray. It's much lower, and it's only MPEG-2 whereas Blu Ray supports more advanced codecs that give better image quality at the same bit rate.



Unix_Beard said:


> It's only a matter of time until Blu-Ray fizzles out as well. Physical media is dying. Some theorize Microsoft backed HD-DVD to throw a monkey wrench in Sony's path to stall long enough for the digital delivery technology to catch up. That said, I'll be buying a Blu-Ray player soon enough.


There's currently no such thing as a way to buy content through downloads, there are only extended rentals. Until someone releases a download scheme with either no DRM, or DRM that's as palatable as that on physical media, Blu Ray isn't going anywhere. (Plus at best downloads are roughly DVD quality so far.)


----------



## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

ciper said:


> Why not go with D-VHS instead? It offers higher bit rates than Blue-Ray, HD-DVD, Satellite, cable and OTA!


Doesn't D-VHS give you all the same prombles you have with VHS? Single stream, serial access, tape swapping, decay of medium, etc.

BOb


----------



## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

pilotbob said:


> Doesn't D-VHS give you all the same prombles you have with VHS? Single stream, serial access, tape swapping, decay of medium, etc.
> 
> BOb


Plus, like I said, I double checked and it's a much LOWER bit rate than Blu Ray and it only supports MPEG-2, so it's effective bit rate is lower still.


----------



## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

ciper said:


> Why not go with D-VHS instead? It offers higher bit rates than Blue-Ray, HD-DVD, Satellite, cable and OTA!


The biggest draw back of D-VHS is there's almost no content available. DVHSmovie.com lists about 40 movie titles. BluRay Movies lists at least 10 times that many.


----------



## dylanemcgregor (Jan 31, 2003)

pilotbob said:


> Doesn't D-VHS give you all the same prombles you have with VHS? Single stream, serial access, tape swapping, decay of medium, etc.
> 
> BOb


Dragging this way off topic, but after having about 80% of the DVDs I've rented over the last month (both from Netflix and the local rental place) be scratched so bad that they will barely play I truly miss the days of VHS. Sure PQ might get screwed up on a tape that had been played thousands of times, but working at a video store I only came across a handful of tapes that couldn't be repaired (and I never came across one that would pause for who knows how long before skipping ahead and then back again).

I'm pretty sure that I'll never go with a physical medium again for movies, and certainly not an optical format. Downloads are where it is at.

Another side note. Apple isn't known for selling their products without a pretty decent margin and I assume the Apple TV is no different selling at $229 and $329. I know that a TiVo HD has some additional parts in it that add cost, but how much? I'm wondering if TiVo could sell a TiVo HD unit at a similar price with decent margins and offer it without a subscription to be used as just a download platform (with maybe something like Tivo Basic also).


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

dylanemcgregor said:


> Dragging this way off topic, but after having about 80% of the DVDs I've rented over the last month (both from Netflix and the local rental place) be scratched so bad that they will barely play I truly miss the days of VHS.


That's one of the good things about blu-ray disks. They are coated with a scratch resistant coating which has reported to even be resistant to steel wool.


----------



## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

The TIVO HD has a LOT more hardware in it and actually costs less (for the same size hard drive). Of course there's a subscription fee (one time depending on if you're a current user or recurring), but it does so much more obviously (and is really comparable to a PC based DVR, not a limited download platform).

As for the discs-are you sure it's not your DVD player? I have a second generation Toshiba that won't even play some discs, and occasionally has some trouble reading some parts of other discs (maybe 1 in 15 discs I get). But I just move them over to my Playstation 2, and it reads them just fine.


----------



## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

morac said:


> That's one of the good things about blu-ray disks. They are coated with a scratch resistant coating which has reported to even be resistant to steel wool.


 Not that I'd recommend anyone TEST it!

I've NEVER scratched a disc before, and don't really understand how people do


----------



## dylanemcgregor (Jan 31, 2003)

morac said:


> That's one of the good things about blu-ray disks. They are coated with a scratch resistant coating which has reported to even be resistant to steel wool.


Great if true, but I'll believe it when I see it. When CDs first came out I remember the popular press talking about how resistant to damage they were and that didn't turn out so great. And is the coating resistant to chocolate fingerprints? I've got a number of discs with this problem over the years which cause my Humax to go into a constant reboot cycle until I manually eject the disc.


----------



## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

dylanemcgregor said:


> Great if true, but I'll believe it when I see it.


It has to be true because the layers are so close to the surface on Blu-ray discs, that a small scratch would ruin the discs. Thus, the coating isn't just for PR, its a necessity.


----------



## dylanemcgregor (Jan 31, 2003)

Puppy76 said:


> The TIVO HD has a LOT more hardware in it and actually costs less (for the same size hard drive). Of course there's a subscription fee (one time depending on if you're a current user or recurring), but it does so much more obviously (and is really comparable to a PC based DVR, not a limited download platform).


TiVo HD starts at $299, so a little bit less than the bigger Apple TV but same general ball park. Obviously the TiVo HD has more and does more than an Apple TV, and as far as I can tell there is nothing that the Apple TV does that a TiVo can't (HD downloads are one thing, but I'm pretty sure that will be coming to TiVo at some point). I'm just wondering at what price point TiVo could make decent margins on the hardware to support selling it without a required subscription.



> As for the discs-are you sure it's not your DVD player? I have a second generation Toshiba that won't even play some discs, and occasionally has some trouble reading some parts of other discs (maybe 1 in 15 discs I get). But I just move them over to my Playstation 2, and it reads them just fine.


I've thought about this, but none of our own movies seem to have this problem and the scratches or dirt on the rentals is usually pretty noticeable. The TiVo integration with the DVD player is the main selling point for me, so I'm not willing to get another DVD drive unless I can get one that I can swap into the TiVo.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

dylanemcgregor said:


> Great if true, but I'll believe it when I see it. When CDs first came out I remember the popular press talking about how resistant to damage they were and that didn't turn out so great. And is the coating resistant to chocolate fingerprints? I've got a number of discs with this problem over the years which cause my Humax to go into a constant reboot cycle until I manually eject the disc.


As rainwater stated, it needs to be because the data layer is so close to the surface. Prior to the coating being developed, the blu-ray discs were originally going to be housed in cartridges, like DVD-RAM discs were.

As for fingerprints, I've found that blu-ray is extremely susceptible to fingerprints causing read errors. Fortunately wiping the disk off fixes this problem. I guess with chocolate fingerprints you could use one of the marketed disc cleaning kits.

Here's more info on the hard-coating technology.

Of note, when I used to subscribe to Blockbuster Online many of the DVD's would be all scratched up, but still play because the scratches weren't that deep. Some would fail to play on my PS2, but would play on my laptop.


----------



## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

brettatk said:


> I chose to get the 160GB model. Now that I have it I could have easily gotten by with the 40GB. Right now I sync all my music and plan to stream all my movies (dvd's I've backed up and encoded). That way the movies will not be taking up space on the ATV. My PC's hard drive is 250GB though, so I have plenty of storage room on it. I might even change my mind and sync all my movies as well depending on the final size of the directory.
> 
> So back to your question. If you can swing the 160GB then it wouldnt hurt. You will have plenty of room to grow. But if you can only afford the 40GB right now I think you would be ok. Plus you could always upgrade the internal drive in the future if needed.


What is stored on the hard drive? Does the unit stream music from the computer or does it copy it all to the AppleTV? I have 66GB of music. I want it to stream.


----------



## ForrestB (Apr 8, 2004)

Unix_Beard said:


> What is stored on the hard drive? Does the unit stream music from the computer or does it copy it all to the AppleTV? I have 66GB of music. I want it to stream.


Rented movies and iTunes files that you've chosen to sync with one computer are stored on the Apple TV hard drive. You can stream audio/video from up to 5 computers and I've found that streaming to be very reliable over 802.11g. To watch streaming, it takes about 30 seconds to buffer SD video and audio is instant.

I disagree with most of the posts on this forum - most just don't seem to get the Apple TV. I've owned one for 3 weeks and I've found:
1. Apple TV is sold out nearly everywhere except the Apple stores. 
2. Apple TV works great with iTunes coverflow to browse and listen to your music on a TV and/or stereo. Consider Apple TV an AirTunes (Apple Express) with a video interface and a remote control.
3. No subscription fees, no subscription fees, no subscription fees
4. HD movie quality is MUCH better than DVD quality - there is no comparison. Also it's much cheaper than buying a BlueRay player for $400 plus buying or renting the movie.
5. AppleTV makes it simple to view all your video podcasts on your HDTV


----------



## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

ForrestB said:


> Rented movies and iTunes files that you've chosen to sync with one computer are stored on the Apple TV hard drive. You can stream audio/video from up to 5 computers and I've found that streaming to be very reliable over 802.11g. To watch streaming, it takes about 30 seconds to buffer SD video and audio is instant.
> 
> I disagree with most of the posts on this forum - most just don't seem to get the Apple TV. I've owned one for 3 weeks and I've found:
> 1. Apple TV is sold out nearly everywhere except the Apple stores.
> ...


:up: I agree with everything you have said.



Unix_Beard said:


> What is stored on the hard drive? Does the unit stream music from the computer or does it copy it all to the AppleTV? I have 66GB of music. I want it to stream.


Right now I am choosing to sync my music (stored on ATV) and stream my DVD movie backups (stored on PC), but you can do any combination you want. I use a wired connection on a 802.11g network and stream without any trouble. The streaming I've done has been pretty instantaneous so far.


----------



## drhankz (Jan 14, 2008)

brettatk said:


> and stream my DVD movie backups (stored on PC), but you can do any combination you want. I use a wired connection on a 802.11g network and stream without any trouble. The streaming I've done has been pretty instantaneous so far.


I don't remember anywhere in the AppleTV manual
about how to do that.

I can do that with my PS3 and Server Software on
my PC.


----------



## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

drhankz said:


> I don't remember anywhere in the AppleTV manual
> about how to do that.


The manual is not very good. It took me a little while to figure out how to do it. All you have to do is enable syncing for your Apple TV. I chose *Custom Sync * so that I could control what I wanted to sync. Also it's very important that you do not have *Show only the synced items on my Apple TV* checked. This is checked by default and I didnt pay much attention to it at first. Then go into the Movie tab and make sure all boxes are unchecked so that it will not sync any movies. Add the movies to your Libray and perform a sync (dont worry, this isnt copying the movies over, it's just updating the library file so your ATV will know what you have added). Now when you go back to your ATV and select My Movies it will list those movies and you'll be able to stream them.


----------



## drhankz (Jan 14, 2008)

brettatk said:


> The manual is not very good. It took me a little while to figure out how to do it. All you have to do is enable syncing for your Apple TV. I selected manual Sync so I could control what I wanted to sync. Then go into Movies (or whatever else) you do not want to sync and deselect it. Then add the movies to your Libray and perform a sync (dont worry, this isnt copying the movies over, it's just updating the library file). Now when you go back to ATV and select My Movies it will list those movies and you'll be able to stream them.
> 
> I'm at work right now so I'm not sure of the exact settings. I'll connect to my home computer in a bit and edit my post to reflect the correct settings.


It sounds like you might have come across an 
undocumented feature 

I know my Pioneer Blu-Ray Player has something it
calls HMG [Home Media Gallery] and my PS3 has
the same function.

I use

http://www.tversity.com/home

On my PC Server.

What software do you need running on your PC to
make AppleTV sync up with?

When you get home - POSTING the info will be fine.

Thanks


----------



## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

Thanks. As long as you can stream iTunes, I'm in. I can't stand Tivo's lack of development of their iTunes streaming. 

Amazon has the AppleTV for $225, no tax and no shipping.


----------



## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

drhankz said:


> What software do you need running on your PC to
> make AppleTV sync up with?


iTunes.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Unix_Beard said:


> Thanks. As long as you can stream iTunes, I'm in. I can't stand Tivo's lack of development of their iTunes streaming.
> 
> Amazon has the AppleTV for $225, no tax and no shipping.


the Apple TV ALSO works as an "Air Tunes" destination, just like an Airport Express.

So, sitting at your computer, running iTunes, you can actually re-direct the iTunes output to the Apple TV instead of the computer's audio. And it will send the album art over so it can be displayed on the TV.


----------



## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

drhankz said:


> What software do you need running on your PC to
> make AppleTV sync up with?
> 
> When you get home - POSTING the info will be fine.
> ...


As someone mentioned you have to load Itunes on your PC and have it running while you are streaming either audio or video files. If you have chosen to sync the files then you do not even need your PC to be turned on since all the data will reside on the ATV.


----------



## drhankz (Jan 14, 2008)

brettatk said:


> As someone mentioned you have to load Itunes on your PC and have it running while you are streaming either audio or video files. If you have chosen to sync the files then you do not even need your PC to be turned on since all the data will reside on the ATV.


Thanks - I'll give that a try tonight.


----------



## Bai Shen (Dec 17, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> the Apple TV ALSO works as an "Air Tunes" destination, just like an Airport Express.
> 
> So, sitting at your computer, running iTunes, you can actually re-direct the iTunes output to the Apple TV instead of the computer's audio. And it will send the album art over so it can be displayed on the TV.


Cool. I didn't know that.


----------

