# Spectrum Ending CableCard support?



## DerekSF (May 16, 2013)

I just received a survey.

Dear Spectrum Customer,

Our records indicate you have, or previously had a CableCard on your account. We're reaching out to our customers with CableCards for feedback on your experience with your video service in order to provide you with the highest quality of products.

One of the questions was what would my interest be in using alternative devices if CableCard we no longer available.

What are peoples plans if Spectrum drops CableCard support?

Apple TV and Roku apps aren’t bad but don’t pause, fast forward or rewind unless you started a cloud DVR recording which is a major inconvenience.


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## JonAult (Jan 19, 2005)

I'm filling out that survey right now.

I'm not sure what I would do if Spectrum dropped CableCard support, but I would certainly think long & hard about all the alternatives. I took a look at Suppose recently to compare my options. I selected all the channels that I have Season Passes on, and it told me that Spectrum was the only option that provided all those channels. But I didn't really stop to think about how strongly I wanted all those programs - I suspect I would have gotten a different answer if I was a bit more selective.

I decided to just keep on with Spectrum for the time being with the intention of revisiting the site when my current TiVo stops working. The best way for Spectrum to keep me as a cable TV customer is to not rock the boat by breaking my TiVo.


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

I just hope it's true but recently I was in a Spectrum store when I was changing over to their cell service and buying a new phone. I asked the guy about that and he said that wasn't happening here. He said something about some kind of different services they have in other areas that they don't do here but I'll be darned if I can remember the details about that (sorry).

I don't even know what I'd do if I had to ditch my Tivos.


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## samsauce29 (Nov 30, 2007)

Just finished filling out my survey. Definitely appears as if they're trying to gauge how many folks would remain with Spectrum TV if cable cards were discontinued.

I was clear that I'd never use a Spectrum DVR, but instead would go TiVo OTA with streaming apps to cover the gaps.

The end certainly appears to be near.


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## alleybj (Dec 6, 2000)

I told them I’d switch to Fios.


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## H2ZX (May 19, 2021)

I filled mine out complete with would cancel cable if cards went away.


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## Cheezmo (Apr 26, 2004)

I also got the survey. Best you can do is say you would cancel if cablecard/Tivo support went away. Hopefully enough of us do.


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## samsauce29 (Nov 30, 2007)

In a fit of uncontrollable optimism, I wondered if they might work with TiVo to finally implement the "virtual cable card" (used as I don't know the proper term).

One of the questions was specific about which type(s) of TiVo you use, so perhaps it would be only for certain models.


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## H2ZX (May 19, 2021)

They only asked if series 3 or 4 or edge no mention of 5.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

At least one thing Spectrum has going for it is no data cap on their broadband service. Which makes it easier (or less worrisome) to switch to a streaming cable TV service if you ever wanted to do that. Wouldn't have to think about how much data you're eating up if you leave the TV on all day, etc.


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## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

Love my TiVo, but would consider dumping my TiVo IF Spectrums cloud dvr would hold more than 40 hours. They offered me a cloud package last year for $40.00 a month. I just can't handle a 40 hour DVR.

Spectrum, in my area still has a 2 channel POS DVR. A 10 year old TiVo is light years ahead of that crap.

We all will probably be looking at alternatives in the next few years and retire the TiVo Forum.


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## Noelmel (Nov 6, 2014)

I also got the survey haven’t filled it out yet. I thought a lot of their own dvrs even had cable cards (maybe only in the the former Time Warner areas which is where I am). If that’s true I don’t see how they could get rid of them. Either way I def would have to cancel and switch to YouTube or Hulu Live and I’ll tell them that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

How did you receive the survey? I want to keep my eyes open for it. 

I would immediately drop Spectrum. The only reason I am with them is they are the only option here that supports TiVo.


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## JonAult (Jan 19, 2005)

waynomo said:


> How did you receive the survey? I want to keep my eyes open for it.


Via email.


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## rn701 (May 18, 2007)

Got the same survey. Said I'd drop the service if I couldn't use Tivo.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

Noelmel said:


> I thought a lot of their own dvrs even had cable cards (maybe only in the the former Time Warner areas which is where I am). If that's true I don't see how they could get rid of them.


They do, but it is complicated. As with all else, there are specific location differences, but the older STBs do depend on CableCARDs, but use DSG for communications to manage the CableCARD and SDV. The newer STBs still support linear QAM, but also support IPTV, and some apps, and these newer cloud based STBs are the way forward for Charter. Since the Charter STBs are two way devices, managing and provisioning them is much easier for Charter than the one-way TiVo CableCARD devices(*). TiVo's also currently use a TA which uses the legacy OOB channels that Charter would like to be able to use for higher speed Internet services(**), and while Charter could, in theory, convert the TAs to DSG mode, AFAIK, of the majors, only Cox has done so in any market. It should also be noted that a TiVo is highly unlikely to support Charter's move towards alternative content delivery solutions (i.e. IPTV) for at least some content in some indeterminate future time frame.

I suspect that many people using TiVo (which are the majority of the CableCARD customers with any cable company) are going to respond that they wish support to continue, or may cancel TV service entirely. But, in the end, it is important to realize that even if 100% of the CableCARD customers cancelled TV service (and no one actually believes some would not be unhappy but still get a Charter STB to get their TV fix) it would still be just a blip in the monthly churn numbers, since the total numbers are just so low.

(*) And we regularly read horror stories being posted about cable companies being unable to get CableCARDs and TAs working reliably; you rarely have that issue with the cable companies STB, And support is an expensive part of the service.

(**) While you can do mid-split and maintain the legacy CableCARD OOB, if you wish to move to high-split, those OOB frequencies are going to get lost(***).

(***) Yes, there are some (complex/expensive) alternatives that are possible to implement to maintain the legacy OOB, but DSG would probably be much cheaper since the TAs are already deployed.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

DSG = DOCSIS set-top gateway for those like me not familiar with that acronym. That’s how OOB (out of band) communications with your TA are handled.

I’ve been so happy not to deal with Spectrum’s clueless support of a TA, not to mention fighting their inscrutable rate structure, since I cut the cable in November 2019.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

The irony is that I decided to cancel Spectrum service about an hour before receiving the survey. I still filled it out stating that I'd leave w/o cable card but between TA reliability, few shows to watch, plus the cost, it just wasn't worth staying any longer. I have two Roamios and a bunch of minis. Hope there's still a market to offload them.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

NashGuy said:


> At least one thing Spectrum has going for it is no data cap on their broadband service.


Usage based billing is prohibited (due to the merger conditions) until May 2023.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, you know as soon as that expires they'll be putting in a cap. To me that survey indicates cards will be gone by next year, if not sooner.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> At least one thing Spectrum has going for it is no data cap on their broadband service. Which makes it easier (or less worrisome) to switch to a streaming cable TV service if you ever wanted to do that. Wouldn't have to think about how much data you're eating up if you leave the TV on all day, etc.


That was a condition of their merger into Charter (or whatever that complicated deal was). And they've been trying to get out of it too. Let's face it, the only thing that moderates cable or internet prices is competition, which unfortunately still doesn't exist in many areas of the country.

Don't expect large corporations (or any other large organization, e.g., Federal, state and most city governments) to act in a caring manner to their customers if there is a tradeoff against profits involved. After I had completely severed my relationship with Spectrum because of their high internet prices and high and inscrutable cable TV pricing and poor customer support, they actually sent someone to my door to enquire why I had left, indicating their top management is oblivious to the ways they infuriate customers.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

dlfl said:


> That was a condition of their merger into Charter (or whatever that complicated deal was). And they've been trying to get out of it too.


Charter did file to remove all of the conditions early. However, the most important one for them was apparently not usage based billing, but what is considered (by almost everyone other than the few other ISPs that are taking advantage of it) extremely onerous conditions regarding Interconnect requirements and fees at colos/DC. Whether Charter would have then moved to starting usage based billing on the consumer side was unclear, but they did not explicitly deny they were considering it at some time in the future (unlike in some previous years when the CEO was quoted as being against it).


> Let's face it, the only thing that moderates cable or internet prices is competition, which unfortunately still doesn't exist in many areas of the country.


And while that (competition) may change in various locations over time, for those that want to actually be in control (rather just taking what is offered), and for which HSI pricing is one of the highest priorities, it is also a clear suggestion to go start your relocation plans. Most, with any skills, can choose from where to work. And it is a choice. Choose wisely.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

JonAult said:


> Via email.


Found it! TY


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, you know as soon as that expires they'll be putting in a cap. To me that survey indicates cards will be gone by next year, if not sooner.


Pretty sure Charter didn't have a cap pre-merger.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

re: data caps

What's been the current industry trend?

I was under the impression that the trend was away from caps.


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## JandS (Oct 1, 2010)

JonAult said:


> I took a look at Suppose recently to compare my options


Thank you for posting that link, it's a very interesting decision tool.

I didn't use it but the "how to" page doesn't mention a way to save details of your eventual options and result. Have you found a way to keep a history of your choices? They make a point that the landscape changes constantly so new options might become available, so it would seem useful to be able to compare to previous availability results.


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## MrDell (Jul 8, 2012)

waynomo said:


> re: data caps
> 
> What's been the current industry trend?
> 
> I was under the impression that the trend was away from caps.


Here in Rhode Island Verizon Fios never had any data caps&#8230;.that's even with their entry 200 up - 200 down for $39.99 per month. Cox has had them but they really haven't enforced them too much because of the competition with Verizon.


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## SoPSGuy (Aug 28, 2021)

samsauce29 said:


> Just finished filling out my survey. Definitely appears as if they're trying to gauge how many folks would remain with Spectrum TV if cable cards were discontinued.
> 
> I was clear that I'd never use a Spectrum DVR, but instead would go TiVo OTA with streaming apps to cover the gaps.
> 
> The end certainly appears to be near.


I too received the survey. I'm in Palm Springs, CA. I hope they keep supporting cable cards as I love the ability to easily skip commercials on my two TVs. My response to the question about what would you do if basically cards not available I responded I would go with an antenna since my TiVos work with cable or OTA.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

There was already an implied threat that if you drop your service you might not be able to get a cablecard again, to encourage people to tolerate the annual price increases. I think they might make the implied threat an official literal one by the end of the year. 

I have to try to arrange installation as a new customer in a couple of weeks but will only consider cable if they'll give me a cablecard.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

waynomo said:


> re: data caps
> 
> What's been the current industry trend?
> 
> I was under the impression that the trend was away from caps.


Data caps are mainly a cable thing, although Charter is a huge exception. The scrappy competitors to cable, fiber and fixed wireless (e.g. T-Mobile, Verizon, Starry), tend not to have data caps. Not coincidentally, there are lots of places where cable is the only broadband choice but that's not true for fiber or fixed wireless (outside of condos/apartments).


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## JonAult (Jan 19, 2005)

JandS said:


> Have you found a way to keep a history of your choices?


I only used it the one time, so at this point you know as much about it as I do.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

waynomo said:


> re: data caps
> 
> What's been the current industry trend?


Significantly, Comcast, which has not had usage based billing in the NE region (due to market competition) is going to add such early next year, as they have had in most other regions for a long time (so all those in the non-NE regions asking for everyone to be treated equally, they got their request, but likely not in the way they were hoping).

Charter (before the "mergers") did not have usage based billing, and public statements indicated they had no plans to do so, but, a couple of things are different between now and then. First, before the mergers, their highest tier was substantially slower, and second, like Comcast, they have found that with higher speed tiers a few percentage of the customers have a way way higher usage than others. Since such extraordinarily higher usage requires significant capital investment to address, Charter is no longer publicly stating that they are not going to go there (and no one other than Charter management knows the current thinking).

It should be noted that many of the new HSI entrants are currently not using usage based billing, but this is the days of acquiring customers at a loss, in order to make it up in volume (later), so whether such providers will introduce such, and if so, when, is also unknown.

The only clear trend is that all the companies will do what they believe maximizes their profits long term.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

CommunityMember said:


> Significantly, Comcast, which has not had usage based billing in the NE region (due to market competition) is going to add such early next year, as they have had in most other regions for a long time (so all those in the non-NE regions asking for everyone to be treated equally, they got their request, but likely not in the way they were hoping)..


In the case of Comcast's usage-based billing policies there are a few exceptions. Firstly, your first month's overage (exceeding 1.2 TB) is excused in any 12-month period. Secondly, you can add the "xFi Complete" service ($11 p.m. in addition to the $14 gateway rental fee) to remove the data cap entirely. Thirdly, some current 24-month HSI promotional deals include xFi Complete at no cost for the first 12 months. Fourthly, if using your own cable modem, you can get unlimited data for a monthly fee of $30. And, fifthly, those MDUs or HOAs under a bulk-services agreement can get the data cap waived.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

chiguy50 said:


> Firstly, your first month's overage (exceeding 1.2 TB) is excused in any 12-month period.


Comcast may have modified this since I last researched it:


> *Courtesy Month*
> We're offering you one courtesy month, so you will not be billed the first time you exceed 1.2 Terabytes (TB), while you are getting used to the Internet Data Usage Plan. This means that the first month you exceed 1.2 TB you will not be charged for overages, no matter how much you use during that month. You will only be subject to overage charges if you use more than 1.2 TB for a second time in a 12-month period. If you use more than 1.2 TB one time or less in a 12-month period, your courtesy month balance will reset to one at the end of these 12 months. *However, if you use more than 1.2 TB two times in a 12-month period, no more courtesy months will be given.* The 12-month period begins the first time you exceed 1.2 TB.
> 
> You can keep track of your courtesy month count on your Usage Meter webpage in My Account or in the Xfinity My Account app for mobile devices.


What will happen if I use more than 1.2 Terabytes in a month? - Xfinity Support


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

humbb said:


> Comcast may have modified this since I last researched it:
> 
> What will happen if I use more than 1.2 Terabytes in a month? - Xfinity Support


Yes, the policy is currently as I described it (one month's forgiveness in any 12-month period). It used to be two months, and then last year the overage charge was temporarily waived in recognition of the pandemic's influence on home network usage.

FWIW (and it is only anecdotal at best), my personal experience over the years validates Comcast's statements that the vast majority of users will not need to exceed 1.2 TB per month. In fact, as much 4K streaming as we do, we have never come anywhere close to the 1TB mark. I recognize that others (particularly large households with heavy on-line gaming) might be in a different echelon, but if they are in fact a small minority then it seems only fair that they should have to bear some cost for their extraordinary demand on the system. And, as I have already mentioned, there exist subscriber options to prevent overage charges for those who are consistently heavy users.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

chiguy50 said:


> Yes, the policy is currently as I described it (one month's forgiveness in any 12-month period).


Understood. But the guidance seems to say that if you have TWO overages in the period, you won't be entitled to a courtesy month in any following period until you reestablish eligibility by not having more than 1 month overage in another 12-month period. It is confusing, admittedly.


> If you use more than 1.2 TB one time or less in a 12-month period, your courtesy month balance will reset to one at the end of these 12 months.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

humbb said:


> Understood. But the guidance seems to say that if you have TWO overages in the period, you won't be entitled to a courtesy month in any following period until you reestablish eligibility by not having more than 1 month overage in another 12-month period. It is confusing, admittedly.


You are entitled to ONE MONTH exceeding the data cap without penalty in any 12-month period. If you go over the cap a second time before another 12 months have lapsed, that would amount to a second overage and thus would incur a fee ($10 per 50 GB over 1.2 TB up to a maximum of $100 per month).

It seems pretty straightforward to me.


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## ManeJon (Apr 14, 2018)

I'm sure I don't know all the circumstances but I don't understand why cable companies don't want to support cable cards. I'd think in this day of people heading to streaming services cable companies would do anything to keep their cable subscribers happy. They charge monthly for cable cards and I can't believe that supporting them is that much effort. 
Now this forum isn't everyone but I'll bet it is somewhat representative - don't support my cable card there is a good chance I'll get rid of my cable service and do streaming or OTA. If I were in charge of a cable TV provider I'd want to work with TIVO to keep customers


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

got the survey. I flat out told them I would cancel Spectrum TV if they got rid of cablecards and I will


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## wendlan (Apr 21, 2002)

ManeJon said:


> I'm sure I don't know all the circumstances but I don't understand why cable companies don't want to support cable cards. I'd think in this day of people heading to streaming services cable companies would do anything to keep their cable subscribers happy. They charge monthly for cable cards and I can't believe that supporting them is that much effort.
> Now this forum isn't everyone but I'll bet it is somewhat representative - don't support my cable card there is a good chance I'll get rid of my cable service and do streaming or OTA. If I were in charge of a cable TV provider I'd want to work with TIVO to keep customers


In 2020, there were about 85,000,000 cable subscribers, and 450,000 CableCards in use (per my random Googling) - which is 0.5%. The number is likely lower a year later here in 2021, and maybe even lower if there are multiple cards per household in some cases. Rough guess that 1/3 of those would get a cable box if forced - so that's about 0.3% of their customers. In the grand scheme - that's not that many people. Consider that many systems are moving to IP-only, cable retail locations need to maintain CableCard and TAs inventory, that every cable headend and billing system update must consider CableCard support, plus staff and service techs needing to be trained -- it gets to a point that it's no longer worth it. Also, CableCard customers probably generate less revenue anyway, as it's less monthly rental fees versus cable boxes and they don't\can't buy PPV.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

@wendlan is right. Spectrum (at least my regional Spectrum) has **never** given a damn about CableCARD and Tuning Adapter users. Training for and stocking these items would be a burden - if they actually did it. I've had several techs tell me their training on these items was a joke. And one tech who arrived supposedly to replace my TA not only didn't have the replacement but didn't know what one was and then claimed it was a discontinued item. During the ten years I lived with a TA it had to be power-cycled every few weeks and this issue was never addressed.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

chiguy50 said:


> You are entitled to ONE MONTH exceeding the data cap without penalty in any 12-month period. If you go over the cap a second time before another 12 months have lapsed, that would amount to a second overage and thus would incur a fee ($10 per 50 GB over 1.2 TB up to a maximum of $100 per month).
> 
> It seems pretty straightforward to me.


Yeah my son caused us to exceed the cap a couple of times years ago and I never got the courtesy month back until last year. Now I have 1 month.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

My experience is with Cox and not Spectrum, but it's possible they go the same route. Cox is not adding new programming for linear QAM and CableCARD support. They've stopped issuing bundle discounts for CableCARD-only packages; my current bundle requires me to have a Contour box on my account (it's in a closet). Cox has done everything to make using a CableCARD product as painful as possible.

Oddly enough Cox sent a few letters out about switching to H.264 for the linear QAM delivery after having several channels with that format for years.

I hope Spectrum's TV pricing remains friendly.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

wendlan said:


> In 2020, there were about 85,000,000 cable subscribers, and 450,000 CableCards in use (per my random Googling) - which is 0.5%. The number is likely lower a year later here in 2021, and maybe even lower if there are multiple cards per household in some cases. Rough guess that 1/3 of those would get a cable box if forced - so that's about 0.3% of their customers. In the grand scheme - that's not that many people. Consider that many systems are moving to IP-only, cable retail locations need to maintain CableCard and TAs inventory, that every cable headend and billing system update must consider CableCard support, plus staff and service techs needing to be trained -- it gets to a point that it's no longer worth it. Also, CableCard customers probably generate less revenue anyway, as it's less monthly rental fees versus cable boxes and they don't\can't buy PPV.


Yep, all great points. I've written similar posts in the past, calculating the tiny % of cable users on CableCARD as you did here, but was too lazy to look up the relevant numbers (again) to post all that here, ha.

With Comcast, the end of support for CC will likely not come until they finally dump QAM and go IP-only. AFAIK, Charter isn't anywhere as close as Comcast to being ready to go IP-only but I would imagine that the support costs for CC are higher at Charter given that it also requires the use of trouble-prone tuning adapters on their system.

Charter is down to about 15.4 million TV subs as of the end of 2Q 2021. If they lost 0.3% of them, that would be 46,200. In comparison, they lost 63k TV subs in 2Q of this year alone, and 138k in Q1. So you can see how losing about 46k TiVo-using customers wouldn't really be that big of a deal. Perhaps they'd stagger the CC phase-out over a few quarters, first in one region of the country, then in another, to reduce the impact of the resulting subscriber losses on any given quarter.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

powrcow said:


> My experience is with Cox and not Spectrum, but it's possible they go the same route. Cox is not adding new programming for linear QAM and CableCARD support. They've stopped issuing bundle discounts for CableCARD-only packages; my current bundle requires me to have a Contour box on my account (it's in a closet). Cox has done everything to make using a CableCARD product as painful as possible.
> 
> Oddly enough Cox sent a few letters out about switching to H.264 for the linear QAM delivery after having several channels with that format for years.
> 
> I hope Spectrum's TV pricing remains friendly.


I remember seeing an internal Cox presentation on some random website a couple years ago that showed their projected timeline for network upgrades. They had "all-IP network" -- which would mean dumping QAM TV -- placed on the timeline within the next few years, IIRC around late 2023. I've tried to find that presentation again since but can't. Anyhow, those roadmaps are to be taken with a grain of salt. Pretty sure some years back that Comcast was projecting that they'd be all-IP by now but they aren't.

But Cox is largely following the Comcast playbook when it comes to how they provision TV service, since their latest Contour boxes run on Comcast's X1 platform. Is Cox still issuing physical DVRs, with internal tuners and hard drive, to new customers or are they doing what Comcast is doing in many cases and issuing simple IPTV-only cloud DVR-only boxes for those who take both broadband and TV?


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> Yep, all great points. I've written similar posts in the past, calculating the tiny % of cable users on CableCARD as you did here, but was too lazy to look up the relevant numbers (again) to post all that here, ha.
> 
> With Comcast, the end of support for CC will likely not come until they finally dump QAM and go IP-only.


We also should bear in mind (as you and others have pointed out in the past) that Comcast's corporate business plan is concentrated on broadband services (as well as providing entertainment content via their NBCUniversal subsidiary), and thus I would assume that cable TV service is a tertiary concern at the corporate policy planning level whose continuation is probably primarily due to the desire to compete for bundled HSI subscriptions from that customer base.

As a TiVo devotee and Comcast subscriber, I feel fortunate that they have continued to service us via CableCARDs in our customer-owned devices, and each year that this support continues is just an added return on my TiVo investment while I await the transition to something else. If TiVo (aka Xperi) were not a dying enterprise in the retail DVR marketplace, it would be harder to face giving up on my beloved devices. But the writing is on the wall--whether the end comes next year or five years from now.

If it's any consolation, there are much, much more serious problems to deal both here at home and on the world stage than how we will manage to time-shift our viewing sources. (Sorry for injecting a little perspective in the conversation, but it's hard to ignore all the heart-wrenching current events in the news.:worried


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

chiguy50 said:


> ... and thus I would assume that cable TV service is a tertiary concern at the corporate policy planning level whose continuation is probably primarily due to the desire to compete for bundled HSI subscriptions from that customer base.


One of the reasons almost all of the majors continue to offer TV is that it makes the numbers look better. In other words, the revenue from the TV subscription supports the company valuation, and the C-level's bonuses (which is of great importance to the decision makers!), even if TV subscriptions are not especially profitable (most of the money that comes in goes out to the content providers). A number of smaller cable companies dropped TV service entirely (focusing only on HSI) as they never had the scale to be able to negotiate the content licensing at reasonable pricing. Verizon FiOS apparently seriously considered dropping their entire TV service offering a few years ago, and last I knew no longer was trying to push it (their CSRs, instead, mention YTTV first, before offering the Verizon TV service if someone really insists on it).


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

wendlan said:


> ... so that's about 0.3% of their customers. In the grand scheme - that's not that many people.


And, for any provider, in addition to the cord-shavers who cancel TV service entirely, there is somewhere of an (about) 2-5% TV subscriber churn rate, so a 0.3% additional loss would be a minor blip in the numbers for any particular month even if all those people cancelled at exactly the same moment.


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## Out with Fios (Dec 4, 2018)

Ugh, well this sucks. I was looking at switching to Spectrum since DTV keeps jacking my price up. Not sure I'd break even on an edge with this news and I'm sure their box is hot garbage in comparison.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

Out with Fios said:


> Ugh, well this sucks.


Remember the old adage: "Until it actually ships, it (and its features) is just rumor". I would be surprised if, at some point, Charter did not stop supporting linear QAM and CableCARDs. But today is not that day. And given their particular infrastructure, tomorrow does not look great either (unlike Comcast, they are no where near N+0, which means broadcast still has some bandwidth savings, and they are certainly not investing enough to get towards N+0 any time soon(ish)).


> Not sure I'd break even on an edge with this news


At this point, I can not recommend a new edge purchase, although a "new-to-you" device with lifetime (all-in) *might* be a viable choice if there is a good deal to be had.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

CommunityMember said:


> Remember the old adage: "Until it actually ships, it (and its features) is just rumor". I would be surprised if, at some point, Charter did not stop supporting linear QAM and CableCARDs. But today is not that day. And given their particular infrastructure, tomorrow does not look great either (unlike Comcast, they are no where near N+0, which means broadcast still has some bandwidth savings, and they are certainly not investing enough to get towards N+0 any time soon(ish)).
> 
> At this point, I can not recommend a new edge purchase, although a "new-to-you" device with lifetime (all-in) *might* be a viable choice if there is a good deal to be had.


I'm on Comcast, and I just really hope they continue QAM. I think enough time has past they could drop the SD duplicate channels to save bandwidth, especially given that HD channels are MPEG-4 and don't use up more than 1.8GB/hour generally. At worst, I think one of my local channels uses roughly 3GB/hour when they secretly changed the broadcast channels to MPEG-4 in my area.

Does TiVo Edge use Hydra? I'm firmly in the Encore camp when it comes to my TiVo.

Anyway, for anyone who is worried about their cable provider dropping QAM, let them know they may lose you as a customer if they drop it. It may also be worth complaining to the FCC or members of Congress.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

powrcow said:


> My experience is with Cox and not Spectrum, but it's possible they go the same route. Cox is not adding new programming for linear QAM and CableCARD support. They've stopped issuing bundle discounts for CableCARD-only packages; my current bundle requires me to have a Contour box on my account (it's in a closet). Cox has done everything to make using a CableCARD product as painful as possible.
> 
> Oddly enough Cox sent a few letters out about switching to H.264 for the linear QAM delivery after having several channels with that format for years.
> 
> I hope Spectrum's TV pricing remains friendly.


Spectrum's TV pricing friendly? When I had their TV using my TiVo, I compared my prices to another customer who used their DVR and had the same TV packages. Spectrum gave me no break at all for bringing my own DVR. One of the most consumer-unfriendly aspects of most cable TV services is the obscure, non-transparent pricing, and Spectrum is a leader in that department.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

TKnight206 said:


> I'm on Comcast, and I just really hope they continue QAM.


That ship has sailed, as while, to this point, Comcast has not done any mass transition, IPTV delivery is the new default (specific exceptions exist). The writing is there, you just need to look up at the wall (although Comcast still has not shared target schedules so that part of the wall writing is still blurry).


> I think enough time has past they could drop the SD duplicate channels


At least the basic tier legacy SD stations have to exist (and be in MPEG-2 encoding) in order to support the legacy DTAs (SD and MPEG-2 is all those devices can do) that were given out to support the basic tier channel set during the early years of the cable digital transitions. And while Comcast could replace those boxes, there are still a lot in the field (when (likely not if) they do bulk replace them, it is likely to be with one of the various newer Xi.... models which can use one of the X1 STB gateways (or maybe an XB7 for some cases) rather than depend on linear QAM only).


> ... to save bandwidth


Not as much as you might imagine, as they put 10-12 programming channels that need to stay MPEG-2 into the same linear QAM channel, and Comcast only has a limited number of those programming channels (not all programming channels that are in SD are members of the legacy basic tier channel set that are supported by the legacy DTAs and the tiers they enable; some feeds from the content providers are still SD only even for programming channels in more advanced tiers). So, it is possible that replacing those legacy DTA boxes may end up on the tail end of the process, simply because the benefits are not as much as removing things like CableCARDs which gets them a lot more useful bandwidth where it matters.

And, as previously noted, interestingly, the DTAs can continue to operate after the (very important to the majority better/faster HSI, which is the goal) CableCARD OOB capability is removed (mid-split can support CableCARDs, and Comcast is expected (well, was expected) to roll that out this year in some locations, but high-split cannot, and FDX even more so).


> Anyway, for anyone who is worried about their cable provider dropping QAM, let them know they may lose you as a customer if they drop it.


The total CableCARD population is so small as to be minimally relevant to the decision makers (as a previous post made those numbers more concrete). And while Charter (branded as Spectrum) has asked for some feedback, I suspect they already know what responses they will get (as only those who are most vocal about their CableCARDs are going to respond). I do wonder if this is the beginning of the process where Charter mentions that the cat (CableCARD) is on the roof.....


> It may also be worth complaining to the FCC or members of Congress.


In case you missed the changes in the regulations, the FCC has made it official a year ago that no company is required to support CableCARDs moving forward. That said, many companies will continue to support CableCARDs for a time, and we are all just trying to guess when time ends.

One thing many people miss is that a single truck roll to resolve CableCARD or TA issues costs more than the profit companies make for well over a year for that TV service. And lots of customers have multiple truck rolls. And every call to re-validate a CableCARD, or reset a TA, also costs money. So does training of staff to assist with CableCARDs (and yes, some people would want even more money spent on training). As many people here (and other forums) will attest, repeated interactions to keep CableCARDs working is not unusual. A technology which you are no longer required to support that costs you more money to continue is always going to be considered to be ended. Arguably, Comcast (and L-TWC before Charter bought the company and moved their CableCARD support staff to other areas of the business) has good CableCARD support, but others, not so much.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Out with Fios said:


> Ugh, well this sucks. I was looking at switching to Spectrum since DTV keeps jacking my price up. Not sure I'd break even on an edge with this news and I'm sure their box is hot garbage in comparison.


Maybe consider DTV Stream. Same (or better) HD picture quality and 5.1 audio as DTV satellite and almost the same channel packages (but missing PBS, NFL Network, and in some areas the local CW and/or MyNetwork TV station). But there's no contract and the prices are around 30% lower than DTV satellite's regular prices, which are frankly outrageous. You'd likely save a bit more by going with YouTube TV or FuboTV, but there are more compromises (e.g. missing channels, etc.) if you go that route, although they may not bother you at all.

As suggested above, another option would be to buy a used TiVo DVR with lifetime service and then switch to Spectrum cable TV. I'd suggest a TiVo Roamio (but NOT the Roamio OTA, which doesn't work with cable) -- you can get one with lifetime service applied to it for around $200 on eBay. But it is worth noting the issues that many TiVo users on Spectrum have, due at least in part to the required tuning adapter.

You might check and see what model DVR is offered by Spectrum in your area. Their most advanced model(s) runs their WorldBox 2.0 software. It's hybrid QAM/IP and features apps from Netflix, HBO Max and YouTube, with others reportedly on the way. I've read specs of 4 tuners with 1 TB hard drive. But I don't think that model is available throughout their entire footprint, maybe only in certain areas.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

CommunityMember said:


> At least the basic tier legacy SD stations have to exist (and be in MPEG-2 encoding) in order to support the legacy DTAs (SD and MPEG-2 is all those devices can do) that were given out to support the basic tier channel set during the early years of the cable digital transitions. And while Comcast could replace those boxes, there are still a lot in the field (when (likely not if) they do bulk replace them, it is likely to be with one of the various newer Xi.... models which can use one of the X1 STB gateways (or maybe an XB7 for some cases) rather than depend on linear QAM only).
> 
> So, it is possible that replacing those legacy DTA boxes may end up on the tail end of the process, simply because the benefits are not as much as removing things like CableCARDs which gets them a lot more useful bandwidth where it matters.


When Comcast does finally replace all those legacy DTAs, I expect it will be with standalone wireless boxes (e.g. Xi5, Xi6) that do purely IPTV, no QAM, streaming directly via the broadband gateway. (By that point, they'll likely have phased out issuing X1 boxes containing their own modem and acting as "primary" wired boxes through which wireless boxes connect. In fact, it looks like they're already doing this now, to some extent.) For those customers without Comcast broadband service, a locked-down IPTV-only gateway will be issued to them as part of the necessary user equipment for all their wireless TV boxes to connect through.

In other words, I don't see the legacy DTA swap-out happening until Comcast is ready to go 100% IPTV and completely dump QAM. But as you say, we could see them implement incremental steps before that. Perhaps all HD channels will go IP-only and the only thing left in QAM will be one or two SD-only packages (e.g. Limited Basic, plus maybe one step-up such as Digital Starter) that cannot be combined with DVR service, no access to PPV or premiums, etc. Perhaps they wouldn't even allow those SD-only packages to be combined with broadband service, either; they'd be for standalone TV customers only.


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## MrDell (Jul 8, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> but NOT the Roamio OTA, which doesn't work with cable


 I believe that the Roamio OTA does cable also&#8230;. The only difference is that it has four tuners vs six tuners.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

MrDell said:


> I believe that the Roamio OTA does cable also&#8230;. The only difference is that it has four tuners vs six tuners.


It is true that an OTA only Roamio will not do cable. The basic 500G model will do EITHER OTA or cable. Here are the models:









EDIT: Although, you can add a cableCARD bracket to an OTA (from what I understand), and it will do cable.


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## MrDell (Jul 8, 2012)

pl1 said:


> It is true that an OTA only Roamio will not do cable. The basic 500G model will do EITHER OTA or cable. Here are the models:
> View attachment 62259
> 
> 
> EDIT: Although, you can add a cableCARD bracket to an OTA (from what I understand), and it will do cable.


Oh.. thanks for the clarification&#8230; I was thinking of the 500 G model when I posted! Completely forgot about the OTA models


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

MrDell said:


> Oh.. thanks for the clarification&#8230; I was thinking of the 500 G model when I posted! Completely forgot about the OTA models


I was thinking maybe you also heard about adding the cableCARD bracket and that was why you were thinking that. Because, a lot of people bought the cheapest lifetime OTA units and added the bracket to save money.


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## MrDell (Jul 8, 2012)

pl1 said:


> I was thinking maybe you also heard about adding the cableCARD bracket and that was why you were thinking that. Because, a lot of people bought the cheapest lifetime OTA units and added the bracket to save money.


Yes! I do remember that "adding the bracket "now that you mentioned it! Completely forgot about it&#8230;. Senior moment!!


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

I got the Spectrum email survey a few days ago and came here to see is others across the country had gotten one as well. I told Spectrum that I had no use for their cable TV package and would cancel their service if they dropped cable cards.
The interesting thing to me is how much they are increasing their prices in the past couple of months. Internet service just increased $15 to $67, phone, which I never use but would cost me more to get rid of because of stupid bundling rules went from $10 to 13. Cable TV is the biggest mystery cost because they have 27 add on's to the price including: Broadcast surcharge fees: $18.95/mo, cable cards $2.00/mo x 2, local franchise fees $3.95/mo, Tier something $12/mo and there may be another charge or 2. Bottom line is it's $190/mo and apparently I'm getting a discount and it's going up another $20 in November.
I found it ironic that the month they went up on my service by about $20/mo AT&T came through and ran fiber in my neighborhood and offer 300mbs for $35/mo, 500mbs for $45/mo and 100mbs/mo for $55 while my Spectrum service is 200mbs and they'll upgrade me for a limited time to 400mbs for another $20/mo.
Anyhow, I'll continue to hold on to my Tivo's and Spectrum for the commercial skip and 30 skip as long as Spectrum doesn't try to rape me for cable service any worse than they already are.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

DerekSF said:


> What are peoples plans if Spectrum drops CableCard support?


I'm on comcast, but I would at the VERY least explore other systems when cablecards go away..
I won't absolutely say I will cancel, but I already get "more streaming than I can watch" (and I do that IN ADDITION to Tivo.. I always tivo so that I can watch in QuickMode AND if the show expires off of streaming, which DOES happen)..

So maybe I would "just" use HBO via streaming (though I'm actually currently subscribed through cable -- similar reason, I want to be able to Tivo Last Week so I can watch in quick mode.. and I do that for various HBO documentaries too), and Hulu.. and I'd still have more than I could watch.

but I would want to "punish" them for removing cablecard support.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

donnoh said:


> I got the Spectrum email survey a few days ago and came here to see is others across the country had gotten one as well. I told Spectrum that I had no use for their cable TV package and would cancel their service if they dropped cable cards.


I believe that Charter (branded Spectrum) expects that nearly everyone who is motivated to reply will indicate they will cancel TV service (and as someone else stated, probably some percentage will, and the rest will complain very very loudly, and then go pick up a Charter STB). And the numbers suggests that Charter will not care about the few that do. I treat the email more of a "The cat (cablecard) is on the roof" email. We are only guessing when cablecards will be announced as dead.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I ordered some Spectrum self install equipment from a self-described "marketing guy" at Spectrum. At first he was trying to tell me I needed a Spectrum digital box and the order screen in front of him doesn't give the option of a cablecard. I'm sure that's true because anyone trying to order through Spectrum's website sees the same thing. After I told him exactly what I needed and it was clear I knew what I was talking about, having been a Spectrum customer two months ago, he said he'd go talk to somebody before he shipped the equipment (so he could play the hero). I think he was familiar with how to get a cablecard and tuning adapter all along. It's all supposed to arrive today via FedEx and the services all look correct on the invoice, although much more expensive than they used to be for a new customer deal, but they added a $9.95 install fee on and I'm self-installing. Don't know whether to complain about that but I'll probably let it slide since they used FedEx although I didn't ask for it, and the guy pretended like it was some special effort to order a cablecard and tuning adapter for me.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

series5orpremier said:


> I ordered some Spectrum self install equipment from a self-described "marketing guy" at Spectrum.


Anyone who acknowledges that they are a "marketing guy" means they are actually telling you they are basically clueless.


> .... and the order screen in front of him doesn't give the option of a cablecard. I'm sure that's true because anyone trying to order through Spectrum's website sees the same thing.


The web based online ordering systems(s) are designed to make it relatively easier for the 99.5% who do not have (or want) a CableCARD. The less than 1%'ers typically require special handling (and will continue to require special handling until Charter decides to end CableCARD support entirely, whenever that may be).


> After I told him exactly what I needed and it was clear I knew what I was talking about, having been a Spectrum customer two months ago, he said he'd go talk to somebody before he shipped the equipment....


It will be interesting to hear if the shipping unit (probably outsourced, and certainly not the person taking the order) actually ships you the CableCARD and the TA. All too often I have seen different items shipped than what was thought to be ordered, which results in a store visit to correct the issue. Do let us know.


> .... but they added a $9.95 install fee on and I'm self-installing.


It probably should be marked as a shipping fee (which is what more and more providers are doing, as shipping and handling does, indeed, cost them money). If you walked into a store you could have probably not have been billed for such (and if you do end up going into a store to get what you really want/need, I would insist the shipping fee be removed, since they did not do you any favors).


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

CommunityMember said:


> In case you missed the changes in the regulations, the FCC has made it official a year ago that no company is required to support CableCARDs moving forward. That said, many companies will continue to support CableCARDs for a time, and we are all just trying to guess when time ends.
> 
> One thing many people miss is that a single truck roll to resolve CableCARD or TA issues costs more than the profit companies make for well over a year for that TV service.


I know they are no longer required to support them going forward. My comment still stands. It's best to complain. Congress might have more power since they make the laws anyway.

Do you have the figures to back up that claim that a truck roll costs more than the profit they make for well over a year for the TV service for that customer? But in all fairness, you have to factor that only a fraction of CableCARD users will ever need a truck roll. Plus, customer service expenses are a factor in the cost of doing business.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

mattack said:


> I'm on comcast, but I would at the VERY least explore other systems when cablecards go away..
> I won't absolutely say I will cancel, but I already get "more streaming than I can watch" (and I do that IN ADDITION to Tivo.. I always tivo so that I can watch in QuickMode AND if the show expires off of streaming, which DOES happen)..
> 
> So maybe I would "just" use HBO via streaming (though I'm actually currently subscribed through cable -- similar reason, I want to be able to Tivo Last Week so I can watch in quick mode.. and I do that for various HBO documentaries too), and Hulu.. and I'd still have more than I could watch.
> ...


I don't like the look or feel of the X1 interface. Plus, being able to record and watch things in a cable outage is a plus when it comes to TiVo. The recording capacity of the X1 is very limited compared to having a TiVo. 3TB on my Roamio versus 500GB including 150 cloud hours on the X1 if I'm not mistaken. Also, I believe the X1 is limited to saving recordings for one year. I don't know if that's cloud storage, or both local and cloud storage.

150 recording hours on my TiVo would take up less than 450GB at most. Very few channels take up more than 3GB/hour, so that's an extreme. Most take up less than 2GB/hour.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

TKnight206 said:


> I don't like the look or feel of the X1 interface. Plus, being able to record and watch things in a cable outage is a plus when it comes to TiVo. The recording capacity of the X1 is very limited compared to having a TiVo. 3TB on my Roamio versus 500GB including 150 cloud hours on the X1 if I'm not mistaken. Also, I believe the X1 is limited to saving recordings for one year. I don't know if that's cloud storage, or both local and cloud storage.


The maximum cloud storage currently on the X1 system is 300 hours, which is usually a $20 p.m. upgrade from the basic 20 hours with the standard service.

I have never used a Comcast DVR, but I doubt that the recordings on the HDD would expire, as opposed to the time limits on cloud storage.


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## 4cowboys4life (Sep 10, 2021)

Hello All,

Interesting conversation here. I am not a Spectrum user (Suddenlink whom took over for Cox years ago), but I was doing research on pairing cable cards and came to this thread. I actually have a tech coming tomorrow because phone support doesn't seem to be able to help (I'll have them credit that as it falls on their ineptness). Actually they have tried to do the pairing and in research I have a suspicion it might just take trying a different card or two. Anyhow, it appears I am very late to the Tivo game. I just purchased from Amazon a 1TB Bolt for $359 (renewed) with lifetime service. This actually came from WeaKnees. I also bought a new Tivo Mini Lux and would need a second one if all goes well. So about a $750 investment to save about $40 a month in the crappy Altice One (and minis) fees. That would take about 19 months for it to pay for itself. However, after reading through this conversation I'm questioning if the juice will be worth the squeeze. I know nobody here can give me a definitive answer on the life I may or may not have with my Suddenlink cable card but just wanted to get any input one may have. I still have plenty of time to return these items to Amazon if I decide to do so. Thanks all.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

4cowboys4life said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Interesting conversation here. I am not a Spectrum user (Suddenlink whom took over for Cox years ago), but I was doing research on pairing cable cards and came to this thread. I actually have a tech coming tomorrow because phone support doesn't seem to be able to help (I'll have them credit that as it falls on their ineptness). Actually they have tried to do the pairing and in research I have a suspicion it might just take trying a different card or two. Anyhow, it appears I am very late to the Tivo game. I just purchased from Amazon a 1TB Bolt for $359 (renewed) with lifetime service. This actually came from WeaKnees. I also bought a new Tivo Mini Lux and would need a second one if all goes well. So about a $750 investment to save about $40 a month in the crappy Altice One (and minis) fees. That would take about 19 months for it to pay for itself. However, after reading through this conversation I'm questioning if the juice will be worth the squeeze. I know nobody here can give me a definitive answer on the life I may or may not have with my Suddenlink cable card but just wanted to get any input one may have. I still have plenty of time to return these items to Amazon if I decide to do so. Thanks all.


And: Will you really save $40 month? When I had Spectrum (formerly TWC) cable they didn't even lower my rate for bringing my own DVR - I knew a neighbor who had the same cable package and used their DVR and his rate was almost identical to mine. Since everyone pays a "negotiated" rate, there is no transparency that would allow you to tell if you're really saving anything. The "bring-your-own" credit is a fantasy based on the assumption that customers all pay the same list prices - if such prices even exist other than in communications between the cable co and the FCC.


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## 4cowboys4life (Sep 10, 2021)

dlfl said:


> And: Will you really save $40 month? When I had Spectrum (formerly TWC) cable they didn't even lower my rate for bringing my own DVR - I knew a neighbor who had the same cable package and used their DVR and his rate was almost identical to mine. Since everyone pays a "negotiated" rate, there is no transparency that would allow you to tell if you're really saving anything. The "bring-your-own" credit is a fantasy based on the assumption that customers all pay the same list prices - if such prices even exist other than in communications between the cable co and the FCC.


 When i picked up the cable card i asked how much would i save be returning the Altice One and 2 minis. I was told $40 which is about right because I'm paying $18 for the main and $10 for each mini.


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## HarleyRandom (Sep 17, 2015)

I have a man coming to my house (are there women?) on Saturday. I won't have time to post what happened but at least it's happening. I started to just ask them to send a CableCard but when I said I could try the one in my Roamio because all I need now is to make sure the Edge works within the 30 days. Then I realized it might not be that easy and I might mess something up, so I agreed to have someone come.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

dlfl said:


> And: Will you really save $40 month? When I had Spectrum (formerly TWC) cable they didn't even lower my rate for bringing my own DVR - I knew a neighbor who had the same cable package and used their DVR and his rate was almost identical to mine. Since everyone pays a "negotiated" rate, there is no transparency that would allow you to tell if you're really saving anything. The "bring-your-own" credit is a fantasy based on the assumption that customers all pay the same list prices - if such prices even exist other than in communications between the cable co and the FCC.


I don't think it is helpful to post answers when the data is old. It can be very misleading to someone asking for advice.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

UCLABB said:


> I don't think it is helpful to post answers when the data is old. It can be very misleading to someone asking for advice.


I'll bet Spectrum's policies haven't changed that much in the two years since I cut cable. That bring-your-own discount is gone with the wind unless you actually pay the official list prices for cable instead of getting a promotion. Anyone who actually pays list is going to get soaked anyway.


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## HarleyRandom (Sep 17, 2015)

It was a man, and because I had said I might try taking the card out of my Roamio which might be going bad, just to test the Edge, he must have assumed that's the one he'd be putting in the Edge. I wasn't willing to take the chance taking a card out and putting it in and putting it back. So I explained no, I had decided to use the Roamio for as long as it works. So he said he didn't have a card and would have to order one. Once he got that done he asked when someone could come back. We agreed on early a week from Monday. Next week won't work for me, but Friday would have been the earliest anyone could come and I didn't think about that. This is making me nervous because I have 30 days to make sure the Edge works.

And I did a bad, bad thing. This also means the Roamio can't quit on me for more than a week. But even worse, in the process of getting someone to send me a card, I had to give a security code. That was on my bill. I hadn't looked at a bill, but I was shocked to see the DTA I'm not even using costs nearly $10 a month. Here I was afraid to retire my Series 2. But if I'm not using it, I need to send the DTA back, and I did get the man from Spectrum to take it with him. So now I don't even have that. If my Roamio goes, I can't watch cable, much less record it. I have my Bolt with its inadequate antenna.

Unless I can remove a card and put a card in myself.


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## dougtv (May 20, 2015)

My rambling from someone who still enjoys Spectrum & TiVo

Cable TV Select = $57
Showtime = $10
Starz = $10
StarzEncore = $5
CableCards x2 = $4
Broadcast/Fees/Taxes = $37
200MBPS Internet = $60
=$183/month for Internet, cabletv, 2 Cards/TiVo access, Starz/Showtime/Encore premiumss
(give or take $5-15 because I may have my premium promotions off, I need to check the next bill lol)

We downgraded from Silver/Gold and took a loss for extra channels like, Boomerang, HDNet, TMC, Flix, Hereos&Icons, many others etc. We also got rid of HBO live channels but still have HBO Max app support thanks to our AT&T Wireless plan. 

If Spectrum continues to increase rates, we will simply keep downgrading channels to ensure our monthly rate is close to the same. Obviously this takes a loss of channels overtime. So from our perspective, they are "going under" and the networks simply do not exist to us anymore. The last ones I ever see going are the ones we probably care about most since these days the majority of our entertainment is streaming. I just use TiVo to pytivo/downloaded videos to our TV or movie projector, watch local or cable news, listen to Music Choice if I didn't ask already ask Alexa earlier to play music in the house. 

At some point, I am sure we will cancel cable TV. But if they keep the rates below $200 for our perspective to have some premium channels and high speed internet (200mbps is still high speed for us!) plus we get to keep our TiVos in every room, then I am still happy with Spectrum. We also do enjoy the Spectrum app as a bonus for some rooms that only have an Apple TV and the Spectrum app AND TiVo app for our mobile devices/on the go.

The content on television on the other hand, which has little to do with Spectrum, is just going downhill. Whether the news networks being annoying or prime time not comparing to Netflix/Amazon/Hulu/Starz/HBO/Disney+/Apple+... it really is overpriced these days with the millions of interrupted commercials.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

dougtv said:


> My rambling from someone who still enjoys Spectrum & TiVo
> 
> Cable TV Select = $57
> Showtime = $10
> ...


Is that the cheapest you can get Showtime, Starz, and StarzEncore? Would it be inconvenient to treat them as a carousel and only get one at a time? Rotate through them, month after month, and just watch the On Demand content if capable. Although, the same can be said for streaming services.

Is 200mpbs the slowest speed you can get? I wonder if they have hidden deals for those who ask, at much slower speeds. We could probably debate what is acceptable speeds these days.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

TKnight206 said:


> Is 200mpbs the slowest speed you can get? I wonder if they have hidden deals for those who ask, at much slower speeds. We could probably debate what is acceptable speeds these days.


FWIW, on Comcast/Xfinity HSI service here in the Central Division (under the Simple & Easy system) the sweet spot in terms of connection speed would appear to be 400Mbps ("Extreme" tier). They are still offering a 50Mbps service for $20 p.m. for the budget-minded, but most customers who do a lot of streaming are probably going to want something more than that. Once you step up from the bottom-tier 50Mbps ("Performance Starter"), the pricing makes Extreme the most attractive for the typical consumer. Note also the name which the Comcast marketing department has not so incidentally assigned to this tier, creating a not-so-subtle impression that the customer should consider this an interim solution before moving up to something more advanced.

The full panoply of options is currently 50/100/200/400/800/1200Mbps at $20/$40/$50/$50/$60/$70. However, the three highest tiers can be further discounted by $10 p.m. if the account includes Xfinity Mobile cell phone service. IOW, 400Mbps ("Extreme") can be cheaper than 200Mbps ("Blast!") or the same price as 100Mbps ("Performance") at an end price of $40 p.m. There are also periodically cash incentives to signing up for one of the top three tiers in the form of prepaid VISA debit cards (currently, $50/$100/$300, respectively). This can make the 1200Mbps plan ("Gigabit Speed") cheaper than even the 100Mbps plan when factored over the 12-month agreement period ($70 p.m. minus $10 XM discount minus $25 pro-rated debit card incentive = $35).

FTR: All pricing discussion here is based on the publicly posted discounted rates for stand-alone HSI service under S&E in the Central Division; other regions may vary. And I would not consider full retail pricing reasonable by any standards and thus not germane to a discussion of relative value.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chiguy50 said:


> FTR: All pricing discussion here is based on the publicly posted discounted rates for stand-alone HSI service under S&E in the Central Division; other regions may vary. And I would not consider full retail pricing reasonable by any standards and thus not germane to a discussion of relative value.


After the first-year promo price runs out on standalone internet, Comcast will often charge customers full price (minus the standard S&E $10/mo paperless autopay discount). In some cases you can get them to apply a new limited-term promo discount, but it isn't as good as the current new-customer promo discount. This has been my experience both for myself and my parents. We live in two different states, both in the Central Division.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> After the first-year promo price runs out on standalone internet, Comcast will often charge customers full price (minus the standard S&E $10/mo paperless autopay discount). In some cases you can get them to apply a new limited-term promo discount, but it isn't as good as the current new-customer promo discount. This has been my experience both for myself and my parents. We live in two different states, both in the Central Division.


I have no personal experience with their stand-alone HSI service and so can not comment one way or another. (N.B.: In a sense, I myself DO have stand-alone HSI since my CATV service is provided via my HOA's bulk-services agreeement.)

But I have had Comcast's HSI for over five years now and ALWAYS got a highly discounted rate upon resubscribing (currently Extreme Pro 800Mbps for $50, not including unassociated discounts of another $10).


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chiguy50 said:


> I have no personal experience with their stand-alone HSI service and so can not comment one way or another. (N.B.: In a sense, I myself DO have stand-alone HSI since my CATV service is provided via my HOA's bulk-services agreeement.)
> 
> But I have had Comcast's HSI for over five years now and ALWAYS got a highly discounted rate upon resubscribing (currently Extreme Pro 800Mbps for $50, not including unassociated discounts of another $10).


Yes, although you're in a special category due to your HOA situation. My parents have only ever had standalone Performance Starter. They got an initial deal and then, upon request, were able to get a lesser discount for maybe the second year, then paid full price for a few years.

About a year ago, I realized that they were not getting the $10/mo autopay discount even though they were on it so I called and complained. Turns out it was because they had never been switched over to the S&E version of their plan, which is the only way to qualify for that discount. Comcast should pro-actively switch accounts over but no, they expect customers to keep up with that kind of inside ball and know to call in and request it. I raised cain about that, so they gave them an $11/mo discount for one year. After that expires in about a month, they'll be up to $46/mo, which is the regular price after the $10 autopay discount. No equipment rental other than the free Flex box in order to score free Peacock Premium, which would otherwise by $5/mo and something they wouldn't pay for. It's not a bad price for typical speeds of 60 down and maybe 4 up. Although not as good as my 60/60 on AT&T Fiber for a regular $45/mo, with wifi 6 router and unlimited data included.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> Yes, although you're in a special category due to your HOA situation. My parents have only ever had standalone Performance Starter. They got an initial deal and then, upon request, were able to get a lesser discount for maybe the second year, then paid full price for a few years.
> 
> About a year ago, I realized that they were not getting the $10/mo autopay discount even though they were on it so I called and complained. Turns out it was because they had never been switched over to the S&E version of their plan, which is the only way to qualify for that discount. Comcast should pro-actively switch accounts over but no, they expect customers to keep up with that kind of inside ball and know to call in and request it. I raised cain about that, so they gave them an $11/mo discount for one year. After that expires in about a month, they'll be up to $46/mo, which is the regular price after the $10 autopay discount. No equipment rental other than the free Flex box in order to score free Peacock Premium, which would otherwise by $5/mo and something they wouldn't pay for. It's not a bad price for typical speeds of 60 down and maybe 4 up. Although not as good as my 60/60 on AT&T Fiber for a regular $45/mo, with wifi 6 router and unlimited data included.


The Autopay & Paperless Billing discount is independent of S&E; they should have qualified for it regardless. But it is an option that can be deselected so they either neglected to sign up or the system failed to credit them for the associated discount if it had remained active. But _caveat emptor_; anyone who does not keep track of their billing (like my poor benighted sister) should not be surprised when they wind up paying more than expected.

There is no reason why your parents should have to pay more than $20 p.m. for Performance Starter as long as they are willing to accept a 12-month service agreement. Just call in and, if necessary, play CSR roulette until you get what any Joe Blow who walks in off the street would be offered. I've heard all of the pushback ("that's for new customers only," " that's not available at your address," "I don't see that on my system," etc.), and it's all baloney. If the offer is published for their neighborhood, then they can qualify if they accept the conditions.

I always negotiate and even push hard for more. And the result is that I always get the best available price and then some. But not everyone is willing to make the effort or deal with the hassle--and Comcast is counting on it!


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> After the first-year promo price runs out on standalone internet, Comcast will often charge customers full price (minus the standard S&E $10/mo paperless autopay discount). In some cases you can get them to apply a new limited-term promo discount, but it isn't as good as the current new-customer promo discount. This has been my experience both for myself and my parents. We live in two different states, both in the Central Division.


I've been getting the new customer double plays for many years here in the ATL, including my latest renewal to S&E pricing last December.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

slowbiscuit said:


> I've been getting the new customer double plays for many years here in the ATL, including my latest renewal to S&E pricing last December.


That confirms my experience over the years as related above.

BTW, I also got a free 3-month upgrade to the ad-free Peacock Premium Plus. If you haven't received an offer, then it wouldn't hurt to inquire.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

slowbiscuit said:


> I've been getting the new customer double plays for many years here in the ATL, including my latest renewal to S&E pricing last December.


Comcast does different things in different areas and may also treat double-play customers differently than standalone broadband customers.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chiguy50 said:


> The Autopay & Paperless Billing discount is independent of S&E; they should have qualified for it regardless. But it is an option that can be deselected so they either neglected to sign up or the system failed to credit them for the associated discount if it had remained active. But _caveat emptor_; anyone who does not keep track of their billing (like my poor benighted sister) should not be surprised when they wind up paying more than expected.
> 
> There is no reason why your parents should have to pay more than $20 p.m. for Performance Starter as long as they are willing to accept a 12-month service agreement. Just call in and, if necessary, play CSR roulette until you get what any Joe Blow who walks in off the street would be offered. I've heard all of the pushback ("that's for new customers only," " that's not available at your address," "I don't see that on my system," etc.), and it's all baloney. If the offer is published for their neighborhood, then they can qualify if they accept the conditions.
> 
> ...


I've tried various times with various Comcast CSRs, both for my account in TN and my parents' in GA. On the call a year ago, I escalated to management and pushed and pushed. The call become pretty heated. All they would give was the $11/mo discount for 12 months, not the full amount offered to new customers. No option to take a new contract in exchange for a larger discount.

I see the graphic you posted and, yes, I'm very aware of what Comcast offers *new customers* via their plan builder. There's no way to reach that offer online for *existing customers*.

Not sure why you're claiming that the paperless autopay discount is independent of S&E. Comcast's own reps insisted that it's linked and that their system would not allow that discount to be applied until they switched the account over to S&E in their system. They did it and then applied the discount, so that part was no big deal.

Frankly, rather than doing what you're suggesting -- calling over and over, begging for a new customer deal and hoping you get the right CSR -- it's easier to just drop Comcast, switch to AT&T Fiber (and take advantage of their new customer deal) and then if and when AT&T raises the price beyond what you want to pay, just switch back to Comcast, where you can definitely get the new customer deal after you've been gone at least 6 months. Then, when they raise the price too much, switch again. I've done this a few times now.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> I've tried various times with various Comcast CSRs, both for my account in TN and my parents' in GA. On the call a year ago, I escalated to management and pushed and pushed. The call become pretty heated. All they would give was the $11/mo discount for 12 months, not the full amount offered to new customers. No option to take a new contract in exchange for a larger discount.
> 
> I see the graphic you posted and, yes, I'm very aware of what Comcast offers *new customers* via their plan builder. There's no way to reach that offer online for *existing customers*.


That's a bummer and I can understand your frustration. I have sometimes run into similar roadblocks, but I am persistent (and, as you know, very experienced in dealing with Comcast's system) and have always managed to overcome the obstacles. For example, my COE credit was dropped from my account last year and the billing department insisted (falsely) that I was now under S&E and that there was no code to enable it. But I kept at it and got a Regional Customer Experience rep to manually enter 24 monthly credits commensurate with the COE discount to cover me through the end of my current agreement. Where there's a will, there is usually a way.



NashGuy said:


> Not sure why you're claiming that the paperless autopay discount is independent of S&E. Comcast's own reps insisted that it's linked and that their system would not allow that discount to be applied until they switched the account over to S&E in their system. They did it and then applied the discount, so that part was no big deal.


I say that because that discount was available here before our region converted to S&E and is still available in other Comcast regions that have yet to make the S&E transition. As you are painfully aware, Comcast's billing system is mind-bogglingly arcane and scattergun and their personnel woefully undertrained and lacking in autonomy: it seems that all they can--or are willing to--do is push the buttons to launch the respective billing codes in the system. The officious response you got may have had something to do with the status of your parents' account at that time or it may have reflected the CSR's lack of knowledge or willingness to go beyond his prepared script.



NashGuy said:


> Frankly, rather than doing what you're suggesting -- calling over and over, begging for a new customer deal and hoping you get the right CSR -- it's easier to just drop Comcast, switch to AT&T Fiber (and take advantage of their new customer deal) and then if and when AT&T raises the price beyond what you want to pay, just switch back to Comcast, where you can definitely get the new customer deal after you've been gone at least 6 months. Then, when they raise the price too much, switch again. I've done this a few times now.


Sure, that's another way to go. There's no one right solution for all situations.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

My latest new customer deal was done via Twitter to @ComcastCares btw. More painful since you have to wait for the give and take but easy to do. All of my previous 2-year renewals were done by phone and the only issue I ever had getting the new customer double play was a rep that said I'd get HBO free for two years, but it only lasted 3 months. I subsequently had a rep at the Comcast forums take care of that for me.

I've had Comcast for 20 years or so now and no real issue getting the new customer rate, every renewal, when I signed a term agreement. YMMV.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> I see the graphic you posted and, yes, I'm very aware of what Comcast offers *new customers* via their plan builder. There's no way to reach that offer online for *existing customers*.


On this particular point, I wanted to add that you are, of course, correct that the on-line offers for an existing account are highly truncated and thus do not include the full spectrum visible to anyone not identified as a current customer. That, however, does not necessarily mean that the existing customer can not qualify for those other deals; you simply have to reach a CSR who will accommodate your demand for a specific published rate or bundle in your area. I have gone this route many times myself in the past.

But it is entirely possible that the picture has changed recently and my impressions are no longer current. I will find out this month as I need to renegotiate my sister's bundle deal in California. I will report back my findings from that experience.

And, as with all things Comcast, it goes without saying that YMMV.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

chiguy50 said:


> I have no personal experience with their stand-alone HSI service and so can not comment one way or another. (N.B.: In a sense, I myself DO have stand-alone HSI since my CATV service is provided via my HOA's bulk-services agreeement.)
> 
> But I have had Comcast's HSI for over five years now and ALWAYS got a highly discounted rate upon resubscribing (currently Extreme Pro 800Mbps for $50, not including unassociated discounts of another $10).


I lived in an apartment once that had expanded basic cable provided for us, so any upgrades or Internet would be an add-on cost. So, are you sure you are getting a highly discounted rate upon resubscribing and not just paying the difference between the bundled rate and the rate your HOA pays? Bundled = Y dollars. HOA pays X dollars under agreement. You pay Y-X amount, perhaps? Food for thought. I don't mean to offend if I'm wrong.

Although, I assume you're being forced to pay HOA fees and thus are indirectly paying for the bulk agreement.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

TKnight206 said:


> I lived in an apartment once that had expanded basic cable provided for us, so any upgrades or Internet would be an add-on cost. *So, are you sure you are getting a highly discounted rate upon resubscribing and not just paying the difference between the bundled rate and the rate your HOA pays?* Bundled = Y dollars. HOA pays X dollars under agreement. You pay Y-X amount, perhaps? Food for thought. I don't mean to offend if I'm wrong.
> 
> Although, I assume you're being forced to pay HOA fees and thus are indirectly paying for the bulk agreement.


TL;DR: Yes, I am sure.

Full explanation:
No, I know exactly what I am paying AND what the HOA is paying since I myself negotiated the bulk-services agreement (BSA).

The HOA is currently paying approx. $163,000 per year, which amounts to a pro-rated $38.50 per unit/month for Digital Starter CATV service including all taxes and fees, one digital receiver and two analog adapters per unit, and ancillary equipment and services for the community. As of May of this year we are past the end of the 10-year term and have extended the agreement month-to-month while the board dithers about what to do next. (Two years ago I negotiated a proposal from Comcast for a 10-year renewal that included Preferred CATV (plus HBO and SHO), Blast! 200Mbps HSI with no data cap, XB6/7 gateway, one XG1v4 DVR and two XB6 client boxes, and a host of other benefits for a pro-rated $70 per unit/month all-inclusive, but the board declined to pursue it.)

Nonetheless, you are correct insofar as any resident who wanted to upgrade the contracted CATV service would pay an incremental cost relative to the bulk rate. So, for example, upgrading from Digital Starter to Preferred would entail a fee of $17.50 p.m. (the full retail increment is $20).

But my residential service agreements are separate. I currently have Extreme Pro (800Mbps) HSI on a 24-month discounted agreement. The rate is $70 (which reflects a contract discount of $36 over the retail rate of $106) less $10 for Autopay & Paperless Billing and $10 for maintaining Xfinity Mobile service, for a total of $50. But I also receive a credit of $10 p.m. in lieu of the COE credit that I should be entitled to for the CableCARD-enabled TiVo DVR. That leaves a net cost of $40 (plus a few cents in Franchise Fees that varies from month to month and is sometimes even a credit). To that I have added HBO Max at $15 p.m. (and I have been getting free SHO for years as a "customer courtesy").

As you can see from the attached web page capture, this HSI discount is readily available at present to all subscribers in my area.

In sum, my residential HSI service is billed under S&E, while the CATV service remains under the terms of the pre-S&E BSA. And my total expense for all services (HSI and CATV w/HBO Max & SHO) is approx. $55 (residential) plus $38.50 (bulk) = $93.50 including all taxes and fees on both ledgers.


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## HarleyRandom (Sep 17, 2015)

The man was just here. He didn't know anything about cable cards and said they rarely install them but he was on a phone with someone else. But he asked me about a tuning adapter. I didn't know I would need one. The one I have didn't work and I seem to be able to get all the channels without one. So it quite a bit more complicated than I thought it would be. I thought I could do all the testing myself, but he had to test the cable where it went in the house, and then once he put the cable card in he had to ask the person on the other end what was supposed to happen. I was able to go to the screen which had all the options and eventually, we found everything that was needed. He had to tell the man on the other end the big long numbers. I figured out where to go to test the channels and they worked.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

chiguy50 said:


> TL;DR: Yes, I am sure.
> 
> Full explanation:
> No, I know exactly what I am paying AND what the HOA is paying since I myself negotiated the bulk-services agreement (BSA).
> ...


I'm under the impression that HOAs are poison (no offense), but you just showed me something useful about them. So, that's $38.50 per month after taxes and fees, or before taxes and fees? I assume after taxes and fees... that is, taxes and fees are rolled into the $163,000/year price the HOA is paying.

I can understand why the board would vote against $70/month/unit given that not everyone would want cable. I mean, if all the members were unanimous about it, that'd be a great deal.

What is the ideal _minimum_ number of DVRs and clients per house? I'm thinking a DVR in the living room plus a client in each bedroom regardless of the number of family members. What is the average number of bedrooms in your HOA neighborhood? Getting a bit off-topic, but curious.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

TKnight206 said:


> I'm under the impression that HOAs are poison (no offense), but you just showed me something useful about them. So, that's $38.50 per month after taxes and fees, or before taxes and fees? I assume after taxes and fees... that is, taxes and fees are rolled into the $163,000/year price the HOA is paying.


There are a great many pros and cons to a bulk-service agreement (BSA) and I won't bog down this thread by enumerating them here. Suffice it to say that there is a subjective cost/benefit analysis to determining its desirability for a given community.

Yes, those amounts are inclusive of all taxes and fees. Unless they add other equipment and/or services, the homeowners' residential accounts carry no costs and (as was my case for many years) can even accumulate a (COE) credit if they are using their own CableCARD-enabled digital device in lieu of the contracted digital STB.



TKnight206 said:


> I can understand why the board would vote against $70/month/unit given that not everyone would want cable. I mean, if all the members were unanimous about it, that'd be a great deal.


There is not a single, solitary issue on which all members of a large HOA will be unanimous; that is an impossible objective. You could offer free apple pie and some would insist it should have been chocolate ice cream. The board, which is entrusted with this responsibility, must decide what is in the best interests of the community as a whole.

But just bear in mind that the all-inclusive retail price of that $70 CATV/HSI package is over $200, even after applying all commonly available promotional discounts. And, in fact, my point of departure for such negotiations has always been a 66% reduction over retail pricing.

There can also be considerable ancillary benefits incorporated in the BSA that have to be weighed in any vetting deliberations, such as the provision for annual fee caps, an upfront signing bonus (so-called "door fee"), free community-access CATV & wi-fi service and equipment, property infrastructure upgrades, dedicated Comcast bulk maintenance and customer service, et al.



TKnight206 said:


> What is the ideal _minimum_ number of DVRs and clients per house? I'm thinking a DVR in the living room plus a client in each bedroom regardless of the number of family members. What is the average number of bedrooms in your HOA neighborhood? Getting a bit off-topic, but curious.


There is no ideal number of video receivers; it depends on the size of the residential units and what you are willing to pay or trade off for them. Our community consists of one-, two-, and a few three-bedroom units. We settled on one host with two client boxes (one for each of two bedrooms). Individual unit owners are free to add to that on their own dime.

You have to consider that the Comcast bean-counters will factor the CPE (customer-provided equipment) costs into the end price. Every piece of equipment added will increase the total cost unless you remove some other element. In our case, with over 300 units, the CPE factor came to around $150,000.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

chiguy50 said:


> There are a great many pros and cons to a bulk-service agreement (BSA) and I won't bog down this thread by enumerating them here. Suffice it to say that there is a subjective cost/benefit analysis to determining its desirability for a given community.


I meant an HOA can be poison itself. I don't know how many people truly like them, but that's off-topic anyway. I mean the bulk-deal being one positive thing in something I would see as a negative.

Would it have been feasible to get the $70/month/unit deal and allow up to a certain percentage of households to opt out without significantly increasing the price for others? So even if 90% wanted hooked up, that'd mean nearly $78/month/unit for those choosing to stay hooked up. Or some other convoluted scheme.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

TKnight206 said:


> I meant an HOA can be poison itself. I don't know how many people truly like them, but that's off-topic anyway. I mean the bulk-deal being one positive thing in something I would see as a negative.


There is no alternative if you elect to live in an MDU community such as a condominium or cooperative complex. There has to be some entity to govern the common responsibilities.

But there are many advantages to HOA living to accompany the disadvantages.



TKnight206 said:


> Would it have been feasible to get the $70/month/unit deal and allow up to a certain percentage of households to opt out without significantly increasing the price for others? So even if 90% wanted hooked up, that'd mean nearly $78/month/unit for those choosing to stay hooked up. Or some other convoluted scheme.


No. Comcast (and pretty much every other service provider that I have dealt with in recent years) will only take up a bulk-service arrangement in return for 100% penetration. From the MSO's point of view, that is one of the primary motivations for making the significant concessions involved in most BSAs.

(ETA: If I remember correctly, AT&T used to offer a reduced-benefit BSA based on tiered participation, but as of 2019 they had ceased entering into any BSAs in my region except for greenfield (new) construction. IDK whether that is still the case.)

Not every provider will even consider a residential BSA or only in limited circumstances.

But, while each resident must shoulder a pro rata share of the cost via the HOA dues, there is no requirement for them to actually use the service. Each home owner can elect to contract for services from a different provider of their choice (within the strictures of their HOA's by-laws). BUT, generally speaking, the MSO will stipulate in the BSA that the HOA itself may not contract for the same services with a competitor while the BSA is in force.

As I have said, there are trade-offs. But when was the last time you were offered a 66% reduction in retail pricing from a service provider without some concessions on your part?


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

chiguy50 said:


> There is no alternative if you elect to live in an MDU community such as a condominium or cooperative complex. There has to be some entity to govern the common responsibilities.
> 
> But there are many advantages to HOA living to accompany the disadvantages.
> 
> ...


So this HOA isn't involving houses? My mistake.

Within the strictures of their HOA's by-laws? Well, as long as the HOA respects Installing Consumer-Owned Antennas and Satellite Dishes


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> I've tried various times with various Comcast CSRs, both for my account in TN and my parents' in GA. On the call a year ago, I escalated to management and pushed and pushed. The call become pretty heated. All they would give was the $11/mo discount for 12 months, not the full amount offered to new customers. No option to take a new contract in exchange for a larger discount.
> 
> *I see the graphic you posted and, yes, I'm very aware of what Comcast offers *new customers* via their plan builder. There's no way to reach that offer online for *existing customers*.*
> 
> ...





chiguy50 said:


> On this particular point [regarding new vs. existing customer status], I wanted to add that you are, of course, correct that the on-line offers for an existing account are highly truncated and thus do not include the full spectrum visible to anyone not identified as a current customer. That, however, does not necessarily mean that the existing customer can not qualify for those other deals; you simply have to reach a CSR who will accommodate your demand for a specific published rate or bundle in your area. I have gone this route many times myself in the past.
> 
> *But it is entirely possible that the picture has changed recently and my impressions are no longer current. I will find out this month as I need to renegotiate my sister's bundle deal in California. I will report back my findings from that experience.*
> 
> And, as with all things Comcast, it goes without saying that YMMV.


Reporting back my findings after having renewed my sister's Xfinity deal in California (as a manager on her account).

Going online, I was able to find most of the same deals while logged in to her account as are offered to new subscribers (viewed in a private browser window). You just need to do a little digging beyond the "recommended" bundles to get to more options.

Her 24-month legacy X1 Premier Pro Triple Play bundle (Digital Preferred, HBO Max, Epix, SHO, Hitz, TMC, More Sports & Entertainment, Gigabit HSI, & VoIP) discount was due to expire in November, which would have increased her net service fee from $147.99 to $175.

I got her the Premier Triple Play, which is the identical 24-month bundle less Epix, TMC, and More Sports & Entertainment (none of which they watch), for a net service fee of $128. That's a $20 discount over what they had been paying up to now. Their total monthly bill (including Broadcast TV fee, RSN fee, and taxes) will decrease from $186 to around $166.

I did not explore whether they could have qualified for any of the "new subscriber" deals that include a $100 VISA debit card, which is presumably designed as an incentive to lure in new customers; none of them were suitable to their needs. But I suspect that I could have gotten that as well by negotiating with a CSR.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chiguy50 said:


> Reporting back my findings after having renewed my sister's Xfinity deal in California (as a manager on her account).
> 
> Going online, I was able to find most of the same deals while logged in to her account as are offered to new subscribers (viewed in a private browser window). You just need to do a little digging beyond the "recommended" bundles to get to more options.
> 
> ...


OK. However, as I've said before, that's not true in my parents' case, nor has it been true in mine in the past. Just logged into their account and confirmed that the deal available to new customers, to get standalone Performance Starter for $20/mo for one year (with 1-yr contract), is not available to them. It offers that specific service to them (which they currently have) only at the full price of $46/mo ($56 minus the ongoing $10/mo paperless autopay discount). Doesn't matter how much "digging around" I do on the site, it doesn't offer that plan at any other price.

In my experience over the years, this is the way it's always been when it comes to keeping your existing package, although as I've said before, maybe that's not the case when you're bundling multiple services. (Seems like one time, a few years ago, when I had broadband plus basic TV and Showtime, retention offered, as a last-ditch attempt to keep me, to extend the first-year promo deal I had for a second year. But I didn't take it as I had already signed up for AT&T and was calling Comcast to cancel.) Anyhow, I know that, when it comes to renewing standalone broadband at your existing speed, it's always been the case that Comcast's online system will not give you promotional discounts as they will do to win new customers. At least not in the Nashville or Chattanooga areas.

Now, that said, Comcast's online system does offer to upgrade them to a faster standalone internet tier at the same promo price (minus any Visa gift card) available to new customers. For instance, if they double their download speed to 100 Mbps (Performance), they can get it for one year at $40/mo with a 1-yr contract. After one year, their monthly price would jump to $76. Again, this is consistent with my past experience with Comcast; promo deals are always about winning new customers and then upselling existing customers to more expensive tiers/bundles. Which makes sense.

My parents really have no need for faster speeds than they have now, though. They can stream 4K Dolby Vision just fine right now and, like me, that's about the most bandwidth-intensive thing they do. But if they don't end up switching to AT&T Fiber, maybe they'll just trade up to Performance on Comcast to save that $6/mo for a year. Eh, it adds up to $72. OTOH, they can get $375 cash back by switching to AT&T Fiber's 300/300 service with gateway included at $45/mo for one year, so I'll probably just help them do that. And if AT&T tries to force them up to the regular price of $65/mo after the first year, well, it's simple enough to switch back to Comcast and get their new customer deal for Performance Starter at that point.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> OK. However, as I've said before, that's not true in my parents' case, nor has it been true in mine in the past. Just logged into their account and confirmed that the deal available to new customers, to get standalone Performance Starter for $20/mo for one year (with 1-yr contract), is not available to them. It offers that specific service to them (which they currently have) only at the full price of $46/mo ($56 minus the ongoing $10/mo paperless autopay discount). Doesn't matter how much "digging around" I do on the site, it doesn't offer that plan at any other price..


As we all know, with Comcast it always helps to bear in mind that YMMV. But I would simply call and insist on the best deal, even if you have to escalate the matter to a retention specialist. And if the first call doesn't work, play CSR roulette. I have never been disappointed.

BTW, just out of curiosity, I asked the rep I spoke to yesterday whether my sister could get that same $20 50Mbps HSI deal, and she said that they did not qualify as long as they are on their current promotion. I did not push back because it was just a theoretical query, but the implication was that they could just cancel or let their bundle deal expire and then sign up for stand-alone Performance Starter.

Just as an aside, I'll mention that Comcast also has an even more budget-friendly HSI offering called Internet Essentials. I would assume that your parents will not qualify as it is designed for low-income households, but it provides the same 50/5Mbps connection speeds as Performance Starter for just $9.95 p.m.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

chiguy50 said:


> As we all know, with Comcast it always helps to bear in mind that YMMV. But I would simply call and insist on the best deal, even if you have to escalate the matter to a retention specialist. And if the first call doesn't work, play CSR roulette. I have never been disappointed.
> &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.


Well you're pretty hard to disappoint then! If I have to go to all that trouble just to get a good deal, I'm already disappointed. I was with Spectrum before I cut the cord and that kind of hassle is one of the chief reasons I was happy to leave. And one of the reasons cable TV providers are among the most hated business entities in the country.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

dlfl said:


> *Well you're pretty hard to disappoint then!* If I have to go to all that trouble just to get a good deal, I'm already disappointed.


I realize that you are being facetious, but that is the exact opposite of the truth; in fact, as should be readily apparent, I am extremely demanding, which is why I do not easily settle for inequitable treatment or being overcharged.

Maybe, in the capitalist world that you imagine we inhabit, the provider bends over backward to ensure that the customer always gets the best possible deal, but the reality is that for-profit corporations exist (wait for it) . . . for profit. If you want to get the most for your money--whether buying a car, an appliance, or virtually any other commodity or service--you have to be willing to do the research and, more often than not, negotiate.

Most consumers are not willing or able to put in the effort to obtain the most favorable possible outcomes--and you had best believe that the provider is counting on it! I understand the reluctance to commit your time and energy to such tedious pursuits, but for me it is a matter of principle to avoid being taken advantage of. And I do derive satisfaction from the knowledge that I have gotten a great deal, whether for myself, a relative or friend, or my homeowners association.



dlfl said:


> I was with Spectrum before I cut the cord and that kind of hassle is one of the chief reasons I was happy to leave. And one of the reasons cable TV providers are among the most hated business entities in the country.


There may be many reasons why the industry ranks among the lowest in consumer satisfaction, and opaque pricing, high costs, and poor customer service are undoubtedly among them. But that is all the more reason to remain a vigilant and informed consumer if you do decide (or are forced) to use their services.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

chiguy50 said:


> I realize that you are being facetious, but that is the exact opposite of the truth; in fact, as should be readily apparent, I am extremely demanding, which is why I do not easily settle for inequitable treatment or being overcharged.
> 
> Maybe, in the capitalist world that you imagine we inhabit, the provider bends over backward to ensure that the customer always gets the best possible deal, but the reality is that for-profit corporations exist (wait for it) . . . for profit. If you want to get the most for your money--whether buying a car, an appliance, or virtually any other commodity or service--you have to be willing to do the research and, more often than not, negotiate.
> 
> ...


Geez, spare me the long winded preaching about the capitalist world that I "imagine". I understand capitalism and believe there is no better system, and I agree that it's buyer beware and you frequently must be informed and negotiate for the best deal. But there is a limit in terms of return-for-the-effort to how much intelligence-insulting opacity and poor customer service that I will put up with to get cable TV when there are better choices available (e.g., YouTube TV). I am a "vigilant and informed consumer" and that's why bargaining with Cable TV is very disappointing.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

dlfl said:


> Geez, spare me the long winded preaching about the capitalist world that I "imagine". I understand capitalism and believe there is no better system, and I agree that it's buyer beware and you frequently must be informed and negotiate for the best deal. But there is a limit in terms of return-for-the-effort to how much intelligence-insulting opacity and poor customer service that I will put up with to get cable TV when there are better choices available (e.g., YouTube TV). I am a "vigilant and informed consumer" and that's why *bargaining with Cable TV is very disappointing*.


You are simply confirming my point about your world view if you think it's untoward for a provider not to offer you the best possible deals without prompting.

But then, I see why you describe yourself as a "cranky old novice." I prefer to remain a hard-nosed but amiable old negotiator.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

chiguy50 said:


> You are simply confirming my point about your world view if you think it's untoward for a provider not to offer you the best possible deals without prompting.
> 
> But then, I see why you describe yourself as a "cranky old novice." I prefer to remain a hard-nosed but amiable old negotiator.


Totally illogical response plus insults. You just keep assuming incorrectly about my attitude toward providers, even though I have explained otherwise. Sorry but I missed the "amiable" part.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> OK. However, as I've said before, that's not true in my parents' case, nor has it been true in mine in the past. Just logged into their account and confirmed that the deal available to new customers, to get standalone Performance Starter for $20/mo for one year (with 1-yr contract), is not available to them. It offers that specific service to them (which they currently have) only at the full price of $46/mo ($56 minus the ongoing $10/mo paperless autopay discount). Doesn't matter how much "digging around" I do on the site, it doesn't offer that plan at any other price.


Well there's your problem, you're not renewing a bundle.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

dlfl said:


> Totally illogical response plus insults. You just keep assuming incorrectly about my attitude toward providers, even though I have explained otherwise. Sorry but I missed the "amiable" part.


If the logic is lost on you, then so be it. And if you find insults in my citing your very own self-description in your avatar, then perhaps you should think about editing the "custom title" you have entered on your account.

At any rate, I can see nothing to be gained from continuing this dialogue and will henceforth put you on ignore.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chiguy50 said:


> As we all know, with Comcast it always helps to bear in mind that YMMV. But I would simply call and insist on the best deal, even if you have to escalate the matter to a retention specialist. And if the first call doesn't work, play CSR roulette. I have never been disappointed.


Much easier and more lucrative, IMO, to simply switch to AT&T Fiber and get the new customer deal there (with over $300 cash back) for a better quality service. And then perhaps, in the future, switch back to Comcast and get their new customer deal if AT&T doesn't want to play ball on keeping prices down. (I always set up the same wifi network name and password on whatever router I'm using so that I only have to make the changes there rather than on each of my many wifi-connected devices.)

I've played Comcast's game of call-and-haggle multiple times for standalone internet. Sometimes got a partial discount applied but never got the full discount being offered to new customers. Which is fine, I understand that. As I say, in my experience, they reserve those discounts for new customers and existing customer upsells. I'm not denying that they've been more generous in your experience, only that the standard line you trot out about how Comcast doles out discounts isn't universally true. As you ultimately concede, "YMMV" with Comcast. I've always felt that dealing with them is a lot like dealing with used car salesmen. For those lucky enough to have a decent second broadband option, there's no need to mess with that.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

CommunityMember said:


> TiVo's also currently use a TA which uses the legacy OOB channels that Charter would like to be able to use for higher speed Internet services(**), and while Charter could, in theory, convert the TAs to DSG mode, AFAIK, of the majors, only Cox has done so in any market.
> 
> (**) While you can do mid-split and maintain the legacy CableCARD OOB, if you wish to move to high-split, those OOB frequencies are going to get lost(***).


Charter is currently rolling out high-split DOCSIS 3.1 broadband service in a test market, a move which greatly increases upload speeds and allows symmetrical 1 gig service with existing modems.

Charter tests high-splits, preps CBRS field trial for early 2022 | Light Reading

As you say, that high-split conversion wipes out the out-of-bound frequencies used by CableCARD and tuning adapters. So my guess is that the August survey they sent out, with the question about possibly ending CableCARD support, was done with the pending high-split upgrade in mind.

From the above article:

_Charter's top exec didn't offer much on how soon and how rapidly the operator would deploy high-split upgrades other than to say deployment would be done on an "opportunistic basis." It's effectively an "electronic drop-in and can be done quite rapidly and cover huge swaths of geography in a very short period of time," he explained._​
They didn't reveal where the test market is. But wherever it's happening, I would think it would mean that TiVos are no longer working properly there on Spectrum TV, unless Charter has engineered some sort of workaround, which I would not expect unless it's also necessary to preserve functionality in their own STBs currently in use.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> Much easier and more lucrative, IMO, to simply switch to AT&T Fiber and get the new customer deal there (with over $300 cash back) for a better quality service. And then perhaps, in the future, switch back to Comcast and get their new customer deal if AT&T doesn't want to play ball on keeping prices down. (I always set up the same wifi network name and password on whatever router I'm using so that I only have to make the changes there rather than on each of my many wifi-connected devices.)


Whatever floats your boat.



NashGuy said:


> I've played Comcast's game of call-and-haggle multiple times for standalone internet. Sometimes got a partial discount applied but never got the full discount being offered to new customers. Which is fine, I understand that. As I say, in my experience, they reserve those discounts for new customers and existing customer upsells. I'm not denying that they've been more generous in your experience, only that the standard line you trot out about how Comcast doles out discounts isn't universally true. As you ultimately concede, "YMMV" with Comcast. I've always felt that dealing with them is a lot like dealing with used car salesmen. For those lucky enough to have a decent second broadband option, there's no need to mess with that.


Of course, we all know that YMMV when making blanket statements about Comcast billing and services. In my case, it could be that I am an outlier in that I am a very long-term customer and am not shy about haggling.

I just finished wrapping up (and ironing out the wrinkles in) the new bundle deal for my sister in California (non-S&E territory). Her 24-month Triple Play discount of $22.01 was due to expire this week. I got her virtually the same deal (Ultimate TV + HBO Max + SHO, Gigabit HSI, and VoIP); she only loses Epix and the More Sports & Entertainment pack (which she and my BIL don't watch), but instead of her monthly bill going up by (at least) $22 it will go down by $20 for a net savings of $42 p.m. over the next two years.

And I got her a total of $40 in customer courtesy credits to sweeten the deal. I sense a carton of Napa Valley wines coming my way.



NashGuy said:


> . . . that the standard line you trot out about how Comcast doles out discounts isn't universally true.


But isn't this the time of the year to be trotting?


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

chiguy50 said:


> Reporting back my findings after having renewed my sister's Xfinity deal in California (as a manager on her account).
> 
> Going online, I was able to find most of the same deals while logged in to her account as are offered to new subscribers (viewed in a private browser window). You just need to do a little digging beyond the "recommended" bundles to get to more options.
> 
> ...


there is an awful lot of tv in that "more sports and ent" package. only way to get Cartoon Network and a lot of others. just fyi


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

mattyro7878 said:


> there is an awful lot of tv in that "more sports and ent" package. only way to get Cartoon Network and a lot of others. just fyi


Yes, I know (although Comcast refuses to publish a listing of the channels it contains). They just don't watch any of them. But now, if they ever want to start watching (or binge-watching) any of the shows on those channels they can just add the MS&E pack to their sub at $9.99 p.m. and then drop it at any time when they have had enough or want to take a pause.

Not only do they not have this option when the pack is contained in the bundle (as it was in their previous X1 Premier Pro Triple Play deal), but AFAIK they will only have to pay a pro rata charge for the add-on pack so that, e.g., they can binge for a week at a time at a cost of about $2.50.

That is the ideal consumerist plug-and-play scenario. If only the whole channel selection setup were designed that way so that we could pick and chose our channel lineup at will.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

I do have a listing of the MS&E channels offered, albeit from a 5/2021 pdf channel list. These are in the SF Bay Area. The significant ones for me are Red Zone, TCM and Pac-12 Bay Area (most of the others are already included in my package anyway). Cartoon Channel isn't included, but is part of my Digital Preferred package.
MORE SPORTS & ENTERTAINMENT PACKAGE
75 CMT
277,1445 Crime &
Investigation
402 ESPNews
403,1313 BTN
405 Sportsman Channel
409,1246 TVG
412 MLB Network
416 NBA TV
417 NFL Network
418 CBS Sports Network
419 NHL Network
427 NFL RedZone
433 Pac-12 Bay Area
501 TCM
726,1210 ESPNews HD
727,1218 NBA TV HD
728,1217 NHL Network HD
729,1219 MLB Network HD
730,1215 NFL Network HD
732,1303 CBS Sports
Network HD
778,1608 CMT HD
785,1216 NFL RedZone HD
789,1755 TCM HD
1237 Sportsman Channel HD (IP only)
1330 Pac-12 Bay Area HD (IP only)


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

humbb said:


> I do have a listing of the MS&E channels offered, albeit from a 5/2021 pdf channel list. These are in the SF Bay Area. The significant ones for me are Red Zone, TCM and Pac-12 Bay Area (most of the others are already included in my package anyway). Cartoon Channel isn't included, but is part of my Digital Preferred package.


Thanks for that. I also have an Xfinity Channel Lineup .pdf from May of this year for my area (Atlanta Vinings), but unfortunately the MS&E listing was truncated and only shows the following:









That's the most recent lineup I am able to locate, and the telephone CSRs are unable to assist other than to direct the customer to the on-line channel listings that do not have the full pertinent info. You can find the channels contained in the three subscription tiers (now termed Choice, Popular, and Ultimate), and you can find the channels provisioned on your particular account if you are logged in.

On the one hand, I understand Comcast's hesitancy to publish these detailed channel listings broken down by subscription tier and add-on pack in that individual channels will move around or be added/removed from time to time, and specific lineups will vary from area to area. But it is pretty customer-unfriendly not to provide at least a snapshot of what is being offered in the form of an annual or semi-annual compendium, however ephemeral. It's not like these listings need to be hand-generated.[/QUOTE]



mattyro7878 said:


> there is an awful lot of tv in that "more sports and ent" package. only way to get Cartoon Network and a lot of others. just fyi


IDK what you were thinking, but Cartoon Network is available in both of the two top tiers (Popular/Extra and Ultimate/Preferred):


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## Eric Hanson (Dec 21, 2021)

Just Reviving this thread with info i got at work today...

*Cable Card & DTA Policy Update*
Valued Partners & Channel Team,

As Spectrum continues to enhance our network and deliver best in class services to our customers, there has been an update regarding our Digital Tuning Adapter (DTA) and Cable Card policy. Effective immediately, DTAs and Cable Cards will no longer be available to new customers. Set Top Boxes (STB) or a Charter issued Apple TV (along with applicable BYOD device options for TV essentials) will be deployed to all new customers.

Two-way communication enabled Customer Premise Equipment (CPE) such as STBs offer our customers the best options for Video viewing. Rate cards and Pricebooks have been updated to remove DTAs and Cable Cards as an option for customers.

Let's continue to present the best Video options available to our customers and secure those PSUs!

Please contact your Channel Manager if you have any questions regarding this change.

We're in your corner, 
Spectrum Partner Program


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## JackStraw (Oct 22, 2002)

Wow, so if you want to use TiVo and you are new Spectrum subscriber you are out of luck. Good job by the FCC dictating that you have to use Spectrum equipment even if it is an inferior STB to a TiVo.


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## turbo327 (Dec 16, 2002)

Eric Hanson said:


> Just Reviving this thread with info i got at work today...
> 
> *Cable Card & DTA Policy Update*
> Valued Partners & Channel Team,
> ...


Interesting, thank you for posting this. I have 2 Tivo's on Spectrum. At some point 3 weeks ago I got the flashing amber leds on both TAs. Like so many others this has happened before with weeks of delay before someone re-enables the subcarrier/OOB signals. No difference this time, the tech took it in stride and yes... a couple of weeks now and the TA's are locked on again.

If they are 'planning' to allow existing customers to continue using Tivos/TAs... that is appreciated. We still record most all our content on TIvo and watch it later. Yep. Roku is now our alternate and Spectrum logins on most premium channels work well.

Gerry in Suffolk VA


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## Eric Hanson (Dec 21, 2021)

JackStraw said:


> Wow, so if you want to use TiVo and you are new Spectrum subscriber you are out of luck. Good job by the FCC dictating that you have to use Spectrum equipment even if it is an inferior STB to a TiVo.


Well, they are here from the government to help...


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## samsauce29 (Nov 30, 2007)

Agreed. Thanks for the post!

I currently have a foot in both the Spectrum and the YouTube TV camps. It's been tough to get the WAF high enough to ditch TiVo. 

Hopefully, Spectrum will make some announcement if they plan to sunset this altogether soon.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

What is the “Spectrum Partner Program”? Do they deal with third party external resellers or with internal Spectrum employees?

ie: does this new rule refer to ALL new customers or only customers onboarded thru a particular program?

What market is this communication from?


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## samsauce29 (Nov 30, 2007)

cwoody222 said:


> What is the "Spectrum Partner Program"? Do they deal with third party external resellers or with internal Spectrum employees?
> 
> ie: does this new rule refer to ALL new customers or only customers onboarded thru a particular program?
> 
> What market is this communication from?


https://partners.spectrum.com/

Looks like external resellers for business?


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Right. Just saw that too.

So it's not really clear if this has any impact for residential customers.

Edit: doesn't look like it does: Spectrum.net


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## samsauce29 (Nov 30, 2007)

cwoody222 said:


> Right. Just saw that too.
> 
> So it's not really clear if this has any impact for residential customers.
> 
> Edit: doesn't look like it does: Spectrum.net


I was trying to get to my rate card to see if it had updated, but it wouldn't load.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

JackStraw said:


> Wow, so if you want to use TiVo and you are new Spectrum subscriber you are out of luck. Good job by the FCC dictating that you have to use Spectrum equipment even if it is an inferior STB to a TiVo.


It is a good job, because Ajit Pai goes off to enjoy a lucrative career in the telecommunications industry. He's given them present after present, thus ensuring his post-public life will be one in which he's handsomely rewarded.


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## duncan7 (Sep 17, 2004)

turbo327 said:


> At some point 3 weeks ago I got the flashing amber leds on both TAs. Like so many others this has happened before with weeks of delay before someone re-enables the subcarrier/OOB signals. No difference this time, the tech took it in stride and yes... a couple of weeks now and the TA's are locked on again.


None of my techs has "taken it in stride." Indeed, they've fallen on their face and haven't been able to resolve the flashing-amber lights after multiple calls. How can I describe what they should try on the head end? They're starting to come around to the idea that crimping on new coax connectors isn't the answer.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

JackStraw said:


> Wow, so if you want to use TiVo and you are new Spectrum subscriber you are out of luck. Good job by the FCC dictating that you have to use Spectrum equipment even if it is an inferior STB to a TiVo.


Consider it a blessing in disguise. Now they're officially admitting they don't support CC and TA, thus eliminating the pain of getting those items and then finding Spectrum de facto has never properly supported them. This is what happens when government tries to force something (e.g., CableCARDs) on people (e.g., cable cos) that is against their basic self interest. When you see everyone actually obeying speed limits then you will know that somehow we've found the way to do that. Until then human nature prevails.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

dlfl said:


> Consider it a blessing in disguise. Now they're officially admitting they don't support CC and TA, thus eliminating the pain of getting those items and then finding Spectrum de facto has never properly supported them. This is what happens when government tries to force something (e.g., CableCARDs) on people (e.g., cable cos) that is against their basic self interest. When you see everyone actually obeying speed limits then you will know that somehow we've found the way to do that. Until then human nature prevails.


They haven't admitted anything like that.

The info provided here was in regards to their business reseller program.

Residential customers are still supported.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

cwoody222 said:


> They haven't admitted anything like that.
> 
> The info provided here was in regards to their business reseller program.
> 
> Residential customers are still supported.


Depends on your definition of "support".


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

JackStraw said:


> Good job by the FCC dictating that you have to use Spectrum equipment even if it is an inferior STB to a TiVo.


That's not the FCC dictating, it's the FCC allowing Spectrum to dictate. (That's some people's idea of "freedom", doncha know.)

Spectrum isn't _required_ to drop CableCard. They've chosen to.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Eric Hanson said:


> Well, they are here from the government to help...


This is how deeply the mindless anti-government rhetoric has permeated our society, that you can say something this stupid* and get a Like for it.

This isn't a government action. This is, specifically, a _lack_ of government restraint on a _corporate_ action. The government _did_ help; it gave us CableCards. And then the deregulator types got into power, and took that requirement away -- letting the corps do what they wanted (freedumb!).

* BTW, I don't want to bash you too hard here. I actually really appreciate your post #115, which it looks like you signed up to make?


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

wmcbrine said:


> That's not the FCC dictating, it's the FCC allowing Spectrum to dictate. (That's some people's idea of "freedom", doncha know.)
> 
> Spectrum isn't _required_ to drop CableCard. They've chosen to.


They have chosen no such thing.

Spectrum still supports CableCards for new and existing residential customers.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

cwoody222 said:


> They have chosen no such thing.
> 
> Spectrum still supports CableCards for new and existing residential customers.
> 
> NOTHING HAS CHANGED.


You mean we can still count on the same dismal poor support they've always provided? Hooray!


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

cwoody222 said:


> They have chosen no such thing.
> 
> Spectrum still supports CableCards for new and existing residential customers.
> 
> NOTHING HAS CHANGED.


OP was making a valid point. Your distinction, although also valid, does not negate the fact that Spectrum has, in fact, eliminated CableCARD support for their enterprise customers through the "Partner Program."


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> This is how deeply the mindless anti-government rhetoric has permeated our society &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.


Then there's mindless pro-government sentiment. Too many people view government as the solution of first resort for everything that's bothering them.

Anti-government sentiment (not all of which is "mindless") is a reaction to the kind of mindless government actions that result from the nature of government itself, i.e., being ruled by bureaucracies in which people are paid to achieve a certain purpose but are rarely held accountable as to their effectiveness or efficiency in doing so. Yes we need government for some purposes, no question about that. But "that government is best which governs least".


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

JackStraw said:


> Wow, so if you want to use TiVo and you are new Spectrum subscriber you are out of luck. Good job by the FCC dictating that you have to use Spectrum equipment even if it is an inferior STB to a TiVo.


Complain to your House member and Senators.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

dlfl said:


> Consider it a blessing in disguise. Now they're officially admitting they don't support CC and TA, thus eliminating the pain of getting those items and then finding Spectrum de facto has never properly supported them. This is what happens when government tries to force something (e.g., CableCARDs) on people (e.g., cable cos) that is against their basic self interest. When you see everyone actually obeying speed limits then you will know that somehow we've found the way to do that. Until then human nature prevails.


You need to stop this crap. You don't even sub to Spectrum. Most of us have decent to excellent support. Your generalizations are not helpful.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

UCLABB said:


> You need to stop this crap. You don't even sub to Spectrum. Most of us have decent to excellent support. Your generalizations are not helpful.


Au contraire: I subbed to Spectrum (and former TWC) digital cable TV from 2009 to 2019. And I've noticed a lot of other forum members agree with my poor opinion of their support for TiVo and generally lousy business practices. What is your statistical evidence for claiming "most of us have decent to excellent support"? I've even seen posts on Reddit by current or former Spectrum employees backing up my statements. I can't prove I'm speaking for most Spectrum customers but neither can you! You're free to disagree but not to censor me.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

dlfl said:


> Au contraire: I subbed to Spectrum (and former TWC) digital cable TV from 2009 to 2019. And I've noticed a lot of other forum members agree with my poor opinion of their support for TiVo and generally lousy business practices. What is your statistical evidence for claiming "most of us have decent to excellent support"? I've even seen posts on Reddit by current or former Spectrum employees backing up my statements. I can't prove I'm speaking for most Spectrum customers but neither can you! You're free to disagree but not to censor me.


Your basic problem is you haven't been a sub for over two years. Your experience is only yours. Sure on a forum, most people come to express their problems and seek advice. Most don't come simply to say hey, everything is working fine. Do you even have a TiVo anymore? You come here to bad mouth a company you haven't used in years. 
I have had very good experiences with Spectrum, but I recognize that is just in my area and it might be different elsewhere. You should recognize that as well.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

UCLABB said:


> Your basic problem is you haven't been a sub for over two years. Your experience is only yours. Sure on a forum, most people come to express their problems and seek advice. Most don't come simply to say hey, everything is working fine. Do you even have a TiVo anymore? You come here to bad mouth a company you haven't used in years.


I've seen plenty of complaints here in the last two years indicating many others are still experiencing the same issues that bothered me. Several recent examples may be found in this thread:

What is the real deal with Spectrum

Yes I still operate a base model Roamio configured for OTA. You seem to know so much about me but you didn't know that, although I've posted it numerous times.


UCLABB said:


> I have had very good experiences with Spectrum, but I recognize that is just in my area and it might be different elsewhere. You should recognize that as well.


Your recognition of that wasn't apparent in your statement that "most of us have decent to excellent support". Your Sprectrum region may be great but there are other regions that contain thousands of TiVo operators.

Please if you want to disagree, fine. But stop trying to control what I can say on this forum. I suffered lousy behavior by Spectrum for years and believe many others continue to do that, so I think they deserve the "bad mouthing" as you put it.


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