# Downton Abbey season 5 (spoilers through most recent PBS episode)



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Thought I would start a discussion thread for any comments on the current fifth season of Downton Abbey as it airs on PBS.

A note on thread etiquette: since a lot of people have probably seen the whole season already, please note that comments about episodes that have not yet aired on PBS are not welcome. (Feel free to start a thread to discuss the whole season if you'd like.) This includes even spoiler-tagged comments and oblique references to things coming up, like "I really can't wait to talk about what happens next week." Thanks for being respectful.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

OK, to date (28-Jan) we've seen four episodes on PBS. A few random comments:

-- For some reason, I was quite intrigued with what kind of birth control Mrs. Bates was buying for Mary a couple of episodes back. I assumed it was a diaphragm, but some reading suggests that it was actually a cervical cap. Huh.

-- It'll probably never be said on the show, but what do we think Thomas is injecting himself with? Testosterone?

-- I didn't care much for the rape storyline last season and I'm already weary of the investigation of Mr. Green's death this season.

-- What is that art historian hoping to accomplish? Dude is quite forward. I assume Cora is not as naive about it all as she seems, and is just letting him carry on because she's enjoying the attention. And why not, I guess; Robert is kind of an arse.

-- In Mary and Tony, shades of the Seinfeld episode when George's girlfriend rejected his attempts to break up. Mary: "We're through." Tony: "No we're not." And yet she got back to Downton seeming to think it was all done. Methinks Tony will be showing up at the estate again soon.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Intersting problem there with Mary and Tony. Traditionally it's the woman's privilege to 'cry off', so can Tony get her for breach of contract? On the other hand, he certainly is in the position to make things very ugly.


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## RickyL (Sep 13, 2004)

Why doesn't Edith and the pig farmer just tell his wife? She's trusting him, why not the wife as well?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

RickyL said:


> Why doesn't Edith and the pig farmer just tell his wife? She's trusting him, why not the wife as well?


She'd be so welcoming. She's not protective of her family or anything.

And Edith didn't trust him. He figured it out.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Right. The farmer figured it out on his own and I would think that if he thought his wife would be calmed or otherwise reined in by knowing the truth, then wouldn't you think he would suggest it himself? After all, he should know his wife better than anyone and be able to predict her reaction.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> -- For some reason, I was quite intrigued with what kind of birth control Mrs. Bates was buying for Mary a couple of episodes back. I assumed it was a diaphragm, but some reading suggests that it was actually a cervical cap. Huh.


I also was curious because it sounded like they were buying something for the man... so I was thinking it was some early version of a condom.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

DA has devolved into two major themes, Who will Mary have sex with next? and Who will Bates murder/be accused of murdering next? with a few minor side plots.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think it started out as a drama with soap opera qualities, and has evolved into a soap opera with dramatic qualities.

But it's still a damn fine cup of coffee soap opera, so I'll keep watching!

(I won't say anything specific, because I watched it as it aired in England and I don't remember what happened in which episodes.)


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> -- It'll probably never be said on the show, but what do we think Thomas is injecting himself with? Testosterone?


VERY much doubt that. I figured it was some drug of addiction (e.g. heroin). I suppose we haven't seen Thomas deteriorate ... yet.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Marco said:


> VERY much doubt that. I figured it was some drug of addiction (e.g. heroin). I suppose we haven't seen Thomas deteriorate ... yet.


Hmm, I hadn't considered a more conventional drug. It's pretty clear he's trying to "cure" himself of being gay. Was heroin considered an avenue for that?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Marco said:


> VERY much doubt that. I figured it was some drug of addiction (e.g. heroin). I suppose we haven't seen Thomas deteriorate ... yet.





cmontyburns said:


> Hmm, I hadn't considered a more conventional drug. It's pretty clear he's trying to "cure" himself of being gay. Was heroin considered an avenue for that?


My friend and I are at an impasse on this as well. My thoughts are drug addiction and I also immediately thought of herion. She is thinking the same as cmontyburns....that he is trying to somehow "cure" himself from being gay. Have no clue where she's picking that up from, but that's her bet.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> (I won't say anything specific, because I watched it as it aired in England and I don't remember what happened in which episodes.)


Me too, so I am being very careful to post as if I've been in a time machine and am posting after the UK airing. If I'm not positive that it is pertaining to this episode, I am keeping my mouth shut tight. But the above, I remember very well as we discussed it at length.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

I didn't know that you could get TV recaps on the ArtsBeat blogs (The New York Times).

'Downton Abbey' Recap: Thomas and the Heterosexual Household

Apparently Louis Bayard thinks Thomas is taking some sort of Cure, too. And his readers have written to say that:



> ... Lady Mary, during her Liverpool snogfest, was in all likelihood using a cervical cap, which was more widespread in 1920s Britain than the diaphragm.


People who have watched the show on the UK airdates can remind themselves what happens in which episode by the lovely snarky episode-by-episde recaps at The Guardian's TV and Radio blog.

Here's the recap for the episode which aired in the US this past Sunday:

Downton Abbey recap: series five, episode four - dangerously close to an actual plot



> "Am I a bad lover? Is that what you're trying to tell me?" Yes, Tony, that is what she is trying to tell you. Frankly, the Ill-Defined Contraceptive Device was wasted on you.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

murgatroyd said:


> Here's the recap for the episode which aired in the US this past Sunday:
> 
> Downton Abbey recap: series five, episode four  dangerously close to an actual plot


Thanks! I like ones written with humour.

That article had a link in it that led me to something that I cannot believe I had never noticed before and I'm hoping I'm not the only one who didn't know this. It's very minor (concerning the dog) and happened way back in S01/S02, so it's not really a spoiler, but I am going to tag it as such anyway.



Spoiler



Am I the only one that didn't know they switched dogs between S01 and S02? The dog in S01 was a male named Pharaoh. When they came back for S02, the dog was a female named Isis. Pharaoh supposedly died. How did I miss this?

Fun fact about the recasting of the dog: The real male dog that lives at Highclere Castle (who oddly enough is a yellow lab) was very territorial and was having serious issues with having another male dog on the grounds, so they had to switch him out for a female.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I did know that about the dog. The dog is one of my favorite characters! I am liking that she is getting lots of screen time this season.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

there was an announcement about the future of the show:



Spoiler



the daily mirror reported season 6 will be the last, set to start filming this spring:


> Writer Fellowes confessed a year ago that he needed to get on with new NBC drama The Gilded Age, set in 19th century New York.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> there was an announcement about the future of the show:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Isn't the Daily Mirror known to be sort of like the UK version of the National Enquirer? Are they a reliable source?


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Jstkiddn said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the Daily Mirror known to be sort of like the UK version of the National Enquirer? Are they a reliable source?





Spoiler



you're right about their reputation, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. the story was also picked up by people magazine...does that make it more or less credible? 

i figured fellowes and the cast were looking for a raise.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Ack! I'm torn. Do I want to read all these spoilers? 

Can one of you PM me if it's good news or bad? Good, I'll read... bad, I'll just ignore and wait to see what happens. But, I know for many even that tidbit is too spoilery, as you can perceive much from that info, hence the PM request. Thanks!


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

NorthAlabama said:


> there was an announcement about the future of the show:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kindly respect the rules I requested be followed at the top of the thread. Much obliged.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

cmontyburns said:


> Kindly respect the rules I requested be followed at the top of the thread. Much obliged.


oops. since i don't watch any episodes other than those that air on pbs, and the post didn't reveal any plot points, i thought i was following your rules, apologies.

i hadn't interpreted your rules as "no spoiler tags allowed". would you like me to delete my post?


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

SoBelle0 said:


> Ack! I'm torn. Do I want to read all these spoilers?
> 
> Can one of you PM me if it's good news or bad? Good, I'll read... bad, I'll just ignore and wait to see what happens. But, I know for many even that tidbit is too spoilery, as you can perceive much from that info, hence the PM request. Thanks!


My thing about the dog wasn't a spoiler. It was several seasons ago. I spoiler tagged it because it dealt with the real dog as well as the "dog character". People are funny about what they read, so I wanted to be safe. But it's not a spoiler.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

NorthAlabama said:


> oops. since i don't watch any episodes other than those that air on pbs, and the post didn't reveal any plot points, i thought i was following your rules, apologies.
> 
> i hadn't interpreted your rules as "no spoiler tags allowed". would you like me to delete my post?


Nah, it's OK.  I was just wanting to prevent the thread from devolving into a bunch of people conversing in spoilers given that many people are ahead of us Luddites watching in real-time on PBS.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I know what you mean about the annoyance of post after post of spoilers. But it's funny how those who don't want to know anything from an outside source are so tempted by the sight of an unknown bit of info that they can't stand to look at it. Or they're afraid of breaking down and clicking on it.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I assumed you meant no spoilered comments about things that happen during Season 5. His thing has nothing to do with anything that may or may not happen during the season airing on PBS.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

laria said:


> I assumed you meant no spoilered comments about things that happen during Season 5. His thing has nothing to do with anything that may or may not happen during the season airing on PBS.


Fair; I was just trying to suggest a specific scope for the thread so it didn't implicitly or explicitly turn into a general DA discussion thread that people watching the show week over week would be scared to come into. However, I started the thread but certainly don't own it... if the community wants to take it another direction, have at it. I just won't be able to read my own thread.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Eh... I'm on board with the original premise of "no spoilering upcoming things"  I also wait and just watch when it gets to PBS.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I am also sick of the rehash of the who did Bates murder story line.

And I didn't realize the dog had a huge following, until my wife mentioned it, this season. She does seem to be getting a lot more screen time this season!


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Yeah... I really don't care about Bates. I have never liked his character. They need some better storylines than "who did Bates murder this time".


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I'm not much of a Bates fan either. Glad to hear I'm not alone! It's sort of feels like kicking a puppy.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I like Bates. It is the rehashing of the same plot that bugs me.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I don't mind Bates, but this is the third season now of him being under legal suspicion of one kind or another. I don't think any of the three storylines have been great, but with so many characters to service, they can't all be winners. So I would have been fine with any of the three... but this is just too much of the same.

ETA: Or, as eddyj said more succinctly.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

I really like Master Bates. 
I just don't like the "Who'd he murder NOW?" Groundhog Day style story line.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I think I don't like him because for all his drama about who he murdered this time, he's a really boring character overall. And for some reason he comes off really possessive and slightly skeevy... I don't know. I guess it's just me.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I liked him better earlier, when he was about the way the class dichotomy shakes out differently in war and in civilian society. But they played that out pretty quickly, and I think the relationship with Anna (which I like) and all the murder investigations (which I increasingly don't) have just been attempts to keep a character who has outlived his original purpose relevant. (And, of course, they've added to the growing soapization of the show!)


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

laria said:


> I think I don't like him because for all his drama about who he murdered this time, he's a really boring character overall. And for some reason he comes off really possessive and slightly skeevy... I don't know. I guess it's just me.


Nope. Me too.

I think if he ever had a different story line, I might actually like the character. Wish I had the chance to find out.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

philw1776 said:


> I really like Master Bates.


ISWYDT.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

cmontyburns said:


> -- In Mary and Tony, shades of the Seinfeld episode when George's girlfriend rejected his attempts to break up. Mary: "We're through." Tony: "No we're not." And yet she got back to Downton seeming to think it was all done. Methinks Tony will be showing up at the estate again soon.


It reminded me of the Natalie/Jeremy break up on Sports Night.

Jeremy - "I broke up with you."

Natalie - "It didn't take!"

As for what Thomas is taking, wasn't there an ad in the paper for some sort of treatment? I assumed that was what he was taking.

Also, do we KNOW that Bates killed Green? I know that is what we are supposed to think, but my wife thinks that we will find out that is a misdirect and that his wife killed Green.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Anna? Don't we know that she was at Downton all day?


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

pdhenry said:


> Anna? Don't we know that she was at Downton all day?


Yes, she may have been. I don't recall exactly. Just seems like it would make more sense for Bates to be a misdirect since they didn't show him actually do it.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

pdhenry said:


> Anna? Don't we know that she was at Downton all day?


Didn't she go on a trip with....Lady Mary? Or Rose? Gah...can't remember now.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

markz said:


> As for what Thomas is taking, wasn't there an ad in the paper for some sort of treatment? I assumed that was what he was taking.


Yeah, there was an advertisement in the magazine titled "Choose Your Own Path". I assumed it was a "cure" for being gay. Since Thomas had a syringe, was looking for a spoon, and looks like a vampire, I assumed he was taking something like heroin.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I assumed it was some kind of treatment for being gay as well.

Edit: Some googling confirms that it is some sort of snake oil gay cure.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Wait! Does it work?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I don't think Downton is any more soap opera than it was in the beginning. What makes it appear more soap opera is that after one season, it is a story. Once you have to remix character stories because the story goes on, it feels more soap opera because the real essence of a soap opera is the serial nature of the saga with the same characters over and over again.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I think it depends on how you define the terms. To me, Downton has always been a _melodrama_, but not necessarily a _soap opera_. It became a lot more soapy in season two, with things like Matthew's miraculous recovery from paralysis, O'Brien trying to hurt Cora (and succeeding) with a strategically-placed bar of soap (fitting!) and so on.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> I think it depends on how you define the terms. To me, Downton has always been a _melodrama_, but not necessarily a _soap opera_. It became a lot more soapy in season two, with things like Matthew's miraculous recovery from paralysis, O'Brien trying to hurt Cora (and succeeding) with a strategically-placed bar of soap (fitting!) and so on.


And I think it also treated some of its themes (e.g., class differences) more seriously in the beginning, and more soapishly later.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And I think it also treated some of its themes (e.g., class differences) more seriously in the beginning, and more soapishly later.


I'm gonna need explanation on that one. What is soapishly?

A big theme of the first season was the chauffeur affair with the lord's daughter. How Dynasty.

How was DA not always a soap opera?


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

The storyline for Bates may be redundant & brutal, but could someone please have them kill off Edith? I can't stand/don't care about her story at all.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Kill off the obnoxious school teacher first


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

i appreciate the shows attention to historical details, not only the clothes or surroundings, but the relationships between the family members.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

laria said:


> I think I don't like him because for all his drama about who he murdered this time, he's a really boring character overall. And for some reason he comes off really possessive and slightly skeevy... I don't know. I guess it's just me.


What you see as possessive I see as protective. He hasn't once that I remember told Anna what she can and can't do and while the whole issue with the other butler seemed out of place, you have to admit Bates was dead on and read the man correctly.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> I'm gonna need explanation on that one. What is soapishly?
> 
> A big theme of the first season was the chauffeur affair with the lord's daughter. How Dynasty.
> 
> How was DA not always a soap opera?


This


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

philw1776 said:


> Kill off the obnoxious school teacher first


I think they've introduced her to contrast new Tom against so we can see that Tom has been civilized and changed.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

NorthAlabama said:


> i appreciate the shows attention to historical details, not only the clothes or surroundings, but the relationships between the family members.


I like it how they jump around in the historical timeline, sometimes putting a year or two into the story between episodes. Of course that might be a side effect of binge watching all 5 seasons. I found myself looking for clues to date the episode, like the assassination of Ferdinand and such and now in the last season the migration of Russians out of the new Soviet Union.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> I like it how they jump around in the historical timeline, sometimes putting a year or two into the story between episodes. Of course that might be a side effect of binge watching all 5 seasons. I found myself looking for clues to date the episode, like the assassination of Ferdinand and such and now in the last season the migration of Russians out of the new Soviet Union.


The time jumps are between seasons or with the Christmas episodes. Time runs more smoothly within a season.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> I like it how they jump around in the historical timeline, sometimes putting a year or two into the story between episodes. Of course that might be a side effect of binge watching all 5 seasons. I found myself looking for clues to date the episode, like the assassination of Ferdinand and such and now in the last season the migration of Russians out of the new Soviet Union.


Last week's episode made a comment about it being 1924. I haven't watched last night's yet.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

It was definitely 1924 at the start of this season... in the first episode Lord Grantham and Carson were both bemoaning the recent election of the Labour government and how it would be the downfall of society as they knew it.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

In case anyone needs a timeline for events referenced in last night's episode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa_pogroms


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

cmontyburns said:


> I think it depends on how you define the terms. To me, Downton has always been a _melodrama_, but not necessarily a _soap opera_. It became a lot more soapy in season two, with things like Matthew's miraculous recovery from paralysis, O'Brien trying to hurt Cora (and succeeding) with a strategically-placed bar of soap (fitting!) and so on.


I think the bar of soap was in the first season.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

MacThor said:


> I think the bar of soap was in the first season.


Seventh episode of season 1.

Literally a soap opera from the start.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

So, 
1. The police are investigating Mr. and/or Mrs. Bates for suspected murder.
2. Mr. and Mrs. Bates are discussing having children.
3. Meanwhile, the vaguely identified contraceptive device is hidden in the Bates home.

I don't think I'm going to like where they are going with this.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Where would they be going with this?


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that wasn't connecting whatever dots seem to be there.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

I recall that Anna Bates had to make up a story to get the device but I think that was for social convention and not for legal reasons. Off to Google.

I think this wikipedia article discusses the book that Lady Mary was referencing. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Love (WARNING: contains _*spoilers *_of future episodes)


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

My guess: the police search the Bates home for evidence re. Green's death and find the contraceptive device. Otherwise, as a plot device, why have Anna tell Lady Mary that she hid it there?

And why have the Bateses discuss having a family? So Anna can look like a liar when the police find evidence that she doesn't want to have children. 

And since by the standards of the day, even having the device is evidence of moral turpitude, I'm guessing the police leap to a conclusion that her friendly relationship with Green was more-than-friendly (providing motive). 

Just more trouble for Mr. and Mrs. Bates -- who I would rather see live peaceful and happy.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

That's a little convoluted. More than it needs to be but I won't say more.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Hrm, I guess. I think it was dumb of Anna to hide the device at her house, though, because her house is so small and Downton is ginormous! Surely there was somewhere she could have hid it in that great big house.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Someone is over thinking. I'd bet that Bates finds it and it leads to problems with the Mrs. Simple soap opera stuff.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

If they kill off Isis, I am done with this show.  

Kill off Sybil, kill off Matthew, but don't you dare kill off Isis!


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

In 2015 you can't have a lovable pet named Isis, even if it's 1924.

She'll go off to the puppy farm in the sky and be replaced by a new dog named Freedom Fries.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

...and Chekhov's Cervical Cap makes its appearance. Oh boy, was I rolling my eyes at how that played out. I'm not sure Bates would jump to that conclusion nor do I see why Anna would let propriety hurt her marriage and not just tell him the thing was Mary's, and why. Fortunately the shoe didn't let this fight linger.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> Someone is over thinking. I'd bet that Bates finds it and it leads to problems with the Mrs. Simple soap opera stuff.


right you are. Not the first time I've overthought and likely not the last.

I liked Baxter's part in this episode.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> right you are. Not the first time I've overthought and likely not the last. I liked Baxter's part in this episode.


It was good. I like Baxter.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Educational PBS. Where else could you learn that shooting up yourself with expensive saline solution is futile?


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

I bet he wasn't told it was saline.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Quick question: I've only watched via Amazon Prime, Netflix, and other acquisition methods. My aunt watches on PBS. She said she was watching the DVD with someone (of something she'd already seen) and the DVD had more scenes. 

For anyone who's seen both, how much is generally cut out on PBS?


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

sushikitten said:


> Quick question: I've only watched via Amazon Prime, Netflix, and other acquisition methods. My aunt watches on PBS. She said she was watching the DVD with someone (of something she'd already seen) and the DVD had more scenes.
> 
> For anyone who's seen both, how much is generally cut out on PBS?


I watched Season 5 on Blu-ray but have not been recording the PBS versions. From what I read on Amazon you'll find mixed stories. Some folks say PBS version is longer, some say UK version is longer. I prefer Blu-ray because we get them sooner and can watch in a marathon.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

sushikitten said:


> For anyone who's seen both, how much is generally cut out on PBS?


My understanding is that it's not cut, it's just rearranged so there are fewer episodes...i.e., different points for the episode breaks.

But I've never watched the PBS version...Blu-ray for the first four seasons, and BBC for the fifth.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

laria said:


> If they kill off Isis, I am done with this show.
> 
> Kill off Sybil, kill off Matthew, but don't you dare kill off Isis!


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Don't give up hope, laria. Matthew recovered from paralysis, after all!


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

But what if the actress playing Isis is worried about typecasting and wants to pursue other roles?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

So glad the obnoxious schoolteacher is gone


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

laria said:


> If they kill off Isis, I am done with this show.
> 
> Kill off Sybil, kill off Matthew, but don't you dare kill off Isis!





laria said:


>


I can sympathize, but at least we didn't get an insufferable speech by Mary about why her father was making such a fuss about a dog.

When the Dowager gave Mary the set-down and said that a lack of compassion was as vulgar as an excess of tears, I cheered.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

murgatroyd said:


> I can sympathize, but at least we didn't get an insufferable speech by Mary about why her farther was making such a fuss about a dog.
> 
> When the Dowager gave Mary the set-down and said that a lack of compassion was as vulgar as an excess of tears, I cheered.


I yelled "smack down"

I can't stand Mary.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> So glad the obnoxious schoolteacher is gone


I think if you put her at a dinner table with Lord Merton's obnoxious son Larry, the results could be quite amusing, but alas, Julian Fellowes didn't go that way.



markz said:


> I yelled "smack down"
> 
> I can't stand Mary.


I want to smack Mary too, when she gets snotty about her sister. But I suspect as *****es go, she's an amateur compared to the late Lady Merton.

You just don't go into someone's house as a guest and insult them at their own dinner table. Is there any culture anywhere that considers that good form? If so, it's news to me.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Mary has gotten way worse and is the most irritating character in the whole show.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

I love her. She makes me laugh.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I like Mary


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

One episode left in this season. Overall, I've enjoyed the season quite a bit. I really appreciate episodes like this one for the amount of production design that goes into them, with the costumes and the sets and locations. It's like watching a little movie each week (and it looks really beautiful in HD on my PBS OTA feed!). 

A few comments on this episode:

-- Of course Anna was going to be arrested. Yawn. I really wonder why Julian Fellowes just can't let this storyline go. This is now a two-season arc for the Bateses. Even the Crawley characters are lucky to get stories that last more than a few episodes.

-- Did they kill off Isis just to give the Earl the opportunity to see he can have a plaque made for Mrs. Patmore's nephew?

-- Rose was kind of a difficult character when she was first introduced, but I really like her now. And the actress is quite pretty. 

-- One thing I appreciate about Fellowes' writing is that while he's quite happy to constantly introduce little soap opera-ish secrets, he moves on from them very quickly instead of spinning them out into stupid things that would never happen in real life because people actually talk to each other. So we get the comic drama about Atticus' stag party, but Rose sees through the scheme quickly enough. Robert figures out that Marigold is Edith's daughter, but he's not mad to have been excluded from that secret. And many other examples from this season.

-- I thought it was a little weird to have Bates sitting at the memorial dedication right after his wife has been hauled off to jail.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

I'll agree with your assessment of Rose. IMO her character was a major annoyance before this season. They did a fantastic job with her character this season. :up:


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> -- I thought it was a little weird to have Bates sitting at the memorial dedication right after his wife has been hauled off to jail.


I think it makes sense that Bates would do his duty even under those circumstances. He is a veteran himself and Carson pretty much told the staff he expected them to be there.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

It's fun to have an episode where I actually enjoy having Thomas as a member of the household.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I had the same thought, although now that Jimmy owes Thomas money, that's probably the end of that. (If Jimmy sticks around.)

Still, I thought this was kind of a clever way to keep Thomas true to character, yet make him likable for once. He was every bit the angle-seeking buttinsky that he always is, but here it was in service of an enjoyable storyline delivering comeuppance to a character who deserved one.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

In Google searches, the suggestion for "why did downton abbey kill off isis" ranked higher than Sybil. 

Although the results don't really say, other than it's not because of the unfortunate naming coincidence with ISIS.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Wasn't it mentioned in some thread here (maybe even earlier in this one?) that the dog was getting really old? As in obviously only a few years in the real world, but like 10 in Downton Abbey years?

Not that 10 is really old for a dog, but meaning she wouldn't be a young dog or puppy still.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

She would be at most 10... maybe a year or two younger. The gap after the first and second seasons was 1914-1916, and she joined the family at some point in there. This season is 1924.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Life expectancy for a Labrador Retriever is 10-12 years, so Isis would be getting on...


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Oh. I thought she was aground the whole time. Isn't she in the opening credits?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

sushikitten said:


> Oh. I thought she was around the whole time. Isn't she in the opening credits?


There was an earlier Lab (Pharaoh).


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I've read a couple of things that make me wonder about the reason for having the dog leave.

First, they killed off the original dog ( pharaoh) due to a conflict with the real life resident dog with having a male dog on the grounds of Highclere Castle. Apparently the dog owned by the real Earl is quite aggressive with other male dogs.

Then, I read there was an issue with the first "Isis" due to her wagging tail knocking over priceless antiques in the house.

Just my own speculation, but maybe the dog actors had become a liability?


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

The word I heard about the Highclere dog was "territorial" rather than aggressive. Territorial for a male dog doesn't necessarily mean aggression (but can be an issue even after the actor dog has gone back to the kennel).

I'm hadn't heard anything about why Isis has been written off other than it not being because of her name.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

laria said:


> In Google searches, the suggestion for "why did downton abbey kill off isis" ranked higher than Sybil.
> 
> Although the results don't really say, other than it's not because of the unfortunate naming coincidence with ISIS.


Archer had the same problem with the ISIS name and had to make an adjustment.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

There wouldn't be any need to remove the dog due to the name in Downton's case. Isis is a figure from Egyptian mythology, which everyone of a certain age knows either from their education or from Saturday morning TV. And with Downton set quite in the past, there's never a chance for the modern connotation to apply anyway. I can't say I've ever heard a Downton character say the dog's name and had it fall strangely on my ears.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> There wouldn't be any need to remove the dog due to the name in Downton's case. Isis is a figure from Egyptian mythology, which everyone of a certain age knows either from their education or from Saturday morning TV. And with Downton set quite in the past, there's never a chance for the modern connotation to apply anyway. I can't say I've ever heard a Downton character say the dog's name and had it fall strangely on my ears.


You're being rational.

Have you ever lived in the actual world?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> I've read a couple of things that make me wonder about the reason for having the dog leave. First, they killed off the original dog ( pharaoh) due to a conflict with the real life resident dog with having a male dog on the grounds of Highclere Castle. Apparently the dog owned by the real Earl is quite aggressive with other male dogs. Then, I read there was an issue with the first "Isis" due to her wagging tail knocking over priceless antiques in the house. Just my own speculation, but maybe the dog actors had become a liability?


They could just show her outside or in safe rooms.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You're being rational. Have you ever lived in the actual world?


Actually, the name never made that connection for me, either. It would be damned silly to kill the dog because some maniacs are using the same name. If they chose the name Rose, would we ban the flowers?


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I don't think there was any real reason other than the dog was old in terms of Downton Abbey years and this is a soap opera and it provided a way for Lord Grantham to make the stone for Mrs. Patmore's nephew.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Actually, the name never made that connection for me, either. It would be damned silly to kill the dog because some maniacs are using the same name. If they chose the name Rose, would we ban the flowers?


They would kill of Lady Rose.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Actually, the name never made that connection for me, either. It would be damned silly to kill the dog because some maniacs are using the same name. If they chose the name Rose, would we ban the flowers?


I got one word for you: Freedom Fries.

When has reason stopped us as a culture from doing silly things?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I got one word for you: Freedom Fries.
> 
> When has reason stopped us as a culture from doing silly things?


That's two words and other than the jokes made, I never once heard the term used.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I got one word for you: Freedom Fries. When has reason stopped us as a culture from doing silly things?


Not quite the same. And that was really a minority that made news. I know McDonald's never changed the name.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

I think the cafeteria in the US Capitol officially changed to serving Freedom Fries.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

pdhenry said:


> I think the cafeteria in the US Capitol officially changed to serving Freedom Fries. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries


Like I said a minority.

Let us continue to pander to the least intelligent most gut level tendencies of our nature.

To bend to any foolish thought that a dog named after an Egyptian goddess has anything more in common with a rebel Islamic rebel state than the coincidence of letters (the state is not named in any way after the Egyptian goddess) is pandering to base emotion and yielding to the continual dumbing down of society.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> To bend to any foolish thought that a dog named after an Egyptian goddess has anything more in common with a rebel Islamic rebel state than the coincidence of letters (the state is not named in any way after the Egyptian goddess) is pandering to base emotion and yielding to the continual dumbing down of society.


I'm not saying it would be right for society to do that.

I'm just saying that society is, indeed, stupid enough to do it.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Because Amurica.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not saying it would be right for society to do that. I'm just saying that society is, indeed, stupid enough to do it.


I'm saying screw society. Some segment of society doesn't write the show.

Society thought the word niggardly was racist.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I thought they did a good job this season of making two and a half unlikeable characters likeable this season: Rose, Molesley, and even Thomas a little bit. Thomas is the half... he's still half a jerk but maybe by the end was becoming a little bit ok. 

I hope Matthew Goode is going to be the new Mr. Mary... yummy. 

I also hope that this is the last we ever hear of Bates or Anna or both of them going to prison for murder!


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## etexlady (Jun 23, 2002)

No cliff hanger. No sudden unexpected death. Only a happy family standing around singing Christmas carols. What a disappointment. I was certain there would be an accident with all the shooting of guns or the house would catch on fire (again) due to the Christmas candles.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Lots of post-next-season casting spoilers out on the news wires today...


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I thoroughly enjoyed this season, except for the Bates storyline, so I'm with laria in hoping that's the last we've seen of that! Otherwise, good show all around. That was a bit uncharacteristically a happy ending, although I suppose there is the doubt about whether Branson is staying or going. (Although the show would have you believe there is no doubt, and he's going.) I'm a little more nervous about Rose. As I've posted before, I've really come to like that character and I hope her presence won't be diminished next season now that she's married and living elsewhere.

Last, I'm a bit surprised that Carson and Mrs. Hughes are engaged. After whichever season it was that ended with the servants at the beach, and those two strolling along the water's edge, Julian Fellowes said that they would never be a romantic couple because that simply wouldn't happen in service at their age. Obviously he's changed his mind about that, and why not. Those actors are good together.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

I was delighted to see Mr. Carson propose to Mrs. Hughes. That scene at the beach is one of the sweetest ones in Downton's history. 

And, while I adore Lady Mary, I wish she wasn't such a B to her sister. She's just so mean to Edith, always has been.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

Thank God this finally aired.

I binge watched the entire run about a month ago via Amazon and this episode was included somehow. When you guys were talking about one or two things upthread I thought I was losing my mind because I had already seen them. I didn't comment because this board is so spoiler averse I was ascairt, but now it all makes sense.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

SoBelle0 said:


> I was delighted to see Mr. Carson propose to Mrs. Hughes. That scene at the beach is one of the sweetest ones in Downton's history. And, while I adore Lady Mary, I wish she wasn't such a B to her sister. She's just so mean to Edith, always has been.


Don't forget that there was that little incident where Edith wrote to the the Turkish embassy and told them that Mr Pamuk died in Mary's bed, which at the time was scandalous enough to completely crush Mary's entire future. I also find myself feeling badly for Edith, then I remember that and figure she has at least some of it coming.

But, maybe it's time for Mary to let it go.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Cearbhaill said:


> When you guys were talking about one or two things upthread I thought I was losing my mind because I had already seen them.


Clearly, that's not why you're losing your mind...


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Ahhhhh Mr. Pamuk... gone too soon. 

Mary sure does get all the hotties, between Mr. Pamuk and Matthew and maybe Mr. Talbot now? I'm glad she didn't settle for Tony or Charles. I want some good eye candy to look at next season and I didn't think either of them were very attractive. 

I have my suspicions that Allen Leech and Lily James won't be around much next season, but that is not due to any casting news mentioned above. I have only seen mention on all the entertainment sites about one person's plans. Both of their movie careers seem to be starting to take off. It's kind of funny that Dan Stevens and Jessica Brown Findlay wanted to leave to focus on other things, and they haven't really done a whole lot and got killed off for it, but Allen Leech and Lily James stayed and seem to be having a bit more success.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> Don't forget that there was that little incident where Edith wrote to the the Turkish embassy and told them that Mr Pamuk died in Mary's bed, which at the time was scandalous enough to completely crush Mary's entire future. I also find myself feeling badly for Edith, then I remember that and figure she has at least some of it coming.
> 
> But, maybe it's time for Mary to let it go.


Mary started it. She scared off Edith's proposal.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

laria said:


> It's kind of funny that Dan Stevens and Jessica Brown Findlay wanted to leave to focus on other things, and they haven't really done a whole lot and got killed off for it, but Allen Leech and Lily James stayed and seem to be having a bit more success.


Jessica Brown Findlay's gotten a lot of exposure...


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I see what you did there.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Oh right! I'd forgotten about Mr. Pamuk. Yes, Mary really does get the cream of the crop, doesn't she? I liked her conversations with Mr. Talbot - it reminded me of her originally 'Much Ado' style witty put-downs and flirting with Matthew. Dear, dear departed Matthew. Miss him.

I do recall that Mary was quite hateful to Edith from the get-go. I'm tired of that... she has matured, and her relationship with her sister should at some point, as well.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

SoBelle0 said:


> I do recall that Mary was quite hateful to Edith from the get-go. I'm tired of that... she has matured, and her relationship with her sister should at some point, as well.


Her maturity comes and goes. She was a much better person a couple of seasons ago than she was at the beginning or now...


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Dear Matthew's love must have made the difference. 

How much did you love the true friendship that grew between Violet and Isobel? I loved the two of them scooting out during the party to sit by the fire and delight in the recent proposal and immoral proposition.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

Cearbhaill said:


> I binge watched the entire run about a month ago via Amazon and this episode was included somehow.


I remember what happened.
Amazon did not have this season so I watched it... elsewhere.
That's why I was ahead of PBS.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Yeah, Amazon does not get it ahead of PBS. Although I'm a little surprised it still isn't there now that it's done airing.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

SoBelle0 said:


> How much did you love the true friendship that grew between Violet and Isobel? I loved the two of them scooting out during the party to sit by the fire and delight in the recent proposal and immoral proposition.


I love these two together!!


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

They did a good job this season of making Violet a bit more multidimensional than just the grumpy old lady who delivers the funny one-liners like "What is a weekend?"


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

Question that I don't know where else to post, and I don't want to start another thread...

Is it historically accurate the only a married woman gets to have a lady's maid? Anna was assigned the duty after Mary got married, and Edith doesn't have one, right?

So what about being widowed and/or divorced? Lady Mary still has Anna after being widowed...would the same be true in a divorce?

Or is this simply a family tradition, and a lady's maid can be assigned to whomever is willing to pay her to hold that position...and it just so happens that the Crawleys tradition is to assign a lady's maid only once married?

My wife asked me these questions and I couldn't answer them...so I told her I would ask the TCF SOAK!


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I think that Anna did things for all 3 of the girls when she was a parlour maid.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Anna has done things for Mary well beyond what she had done for the other two.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

Anna is clearly "assigned" to Mary... When Mary travels (in general), so does Anna...

When Edith travels...she goes at it alone...

Anna was a housemaid before Mary got married...then she got elevated to a lady's maid...


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Just finished watching this with Amazon Prime. The Christmas episode was wonderful. 

I am sooooooo sick of Bates et al being accused of murder.

I really love that Carson and Mrs. Hughes are getting married. It's about time. The beach scene with them was wonderful! I was hoping the house thing was leading up to this.

Thomas was great this year. He is smarmy but somehow comes across as sympathetic after all.

Love the friendship that has now developed between Isobel and Violet. 

Mary is just Mary. Sleeping with men and leading them on and making snippy remarks to Edith.

Glad that Edith's secret is now out and that Robert wasn't the last to know. It's appropriate that Mary is.

Daisy was just weird. It almost felt like the writers were fighting over her fate. Should she be educated or not? Should she move on or not? Should she want to better herself or not? I kept wishing they would make up their minds.

The lack of concern about the Jewish heritage of Atticus was refreshing. Her mom was horrible and selfish. How could she have such a wonderful child? Shrimpy is much better off without her. Rose finally matured this year after being the high spirited teenager for so many years.

All of the sisters really seem to love Branson. I'm surprised they don't pair up one of them with him.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

I loved when Rose got the apology from her father-in-law (after she saved his *ss!).


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