# New issue with used TiVos from strangers



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

I had wondered when TiVo changed the pricing plan how would TiVo collect from somebody who just stopped paying (by changing their credit card). I just found out as a friend just got a TiVo and it showed account closed (what was expected) but on the TiVo web sight when you put the TSN in the red print came up saying that this unit was already activated. Calling TiVo he found out that the former owner had money that was owned TiVo Inc on this TiVo. The CSR is going to try to clear up this TiVo but is not sure how long it will take or if it can been done. This means that TiVos in the wild may have a lien on them, bad new for the used market and unlucky customers who get them. In the case of E-Bay (my friend got his at an outdoor flee market) if the seller was not the owner or the owner owes more than the unit sold for he may not want to pay TiVo.
I don't know how big a problem this may become but buyers should get the TSN before paying on E-Bay.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Dang, that sucks. 

Thanks for the good hint.


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

what's the most that could be owed? 12.95?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

SugarBowl said:


> what's the most that could be owed? 12.95?


Could be over $200 depending on the contract the user took out, plus TiVo keeps charging the account even after a few non payments, they told me at least 3 months so the odds are it will be more than $12.95 and they will not tell you because the TiVo in question is not in your account !! As I said they know my friend has the unit because we set up the TiVo with a different zip code. I sure TiVo will solve the problem for my friend, but when.


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## funtoupgrade (Mar 15, 2005)

Eventually the system info screen on a defaulted unit says "defaulted" under sub status, but that may take a long time. A defaulted TiVo is useless for resale. TiVo demands the new owner to cough up the contract cancellation fee or take over the subscription for $16.95 per month for the life of the contract regardless of how much the default owner was paying per month. They claim they turn these accounts over for collection but refuse to clear the default status so as the OP noted be very careful when buying these. I always ask up front before bidding what the subsription status is on the unit. If I don't get the right answer then I don't bid. Fortunately, the only defaulted unit I bought was refunded by Paypal when I filed a claim. The seller claimed she got the unit from somebody else and did not know about the default status.


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## raianoat (Jan 27, 2004)

Let us know how this turns out. I'm sure others are interested.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

funtoupgrade said:


> Eventually the system info screen on a defaulted unit says "defaulted" under sub status, but that may take a long time. A defaulted TiVo is useless for resale. TiVo demands the new owner to cough up the contract cancellation fee or take over the subscription for $16.95 per month for the life of the contract regardless of how much the default owner was paying per month. They claim they turn these accounts over for collection but refuse to clear the default status so as the OP noted be very careful when buying these. I always ask up front before bidding what the subsription status is on the unit. If I don't get the right answer then I don't bid. Fortunately, the only defaulted unit I bought was refunded by Paypal when I filed a claim. The seller claimed she got the unit from somebody else and did not know about the default status.


Now it it has closed in the SI screen, but you have provided good information except TiVo will not tell my friend anything about the money that is defaulted on this TiVo.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

This is very good to know. Thanks.


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## funtoupgrade (Mar 15, 2005)

lessd said:


> Now it it has closed in the SI screen, but you have provided good information except TiVo will not tell my friend anything about the money that is defaulted on this TiVo.


Have your friend keep calling TiVo and asking for a supervisor each time. I think they are free to make special offers, and you might get a sympathetic one. Did he/she ask specifically if the cancellation fee could be paid to get the unit clear, or if the monthly contract could be switched to him/her?


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

lessd said:


> This means that TiVos in the wild may have a lean on them ...


Thanks for the heads-up.

In the same spirit, the word you wanted to use is spelled 'lien'.

Jan


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## Mars (Sep 13, 2001)

So what's next, I buy a tv from somebody and find out I can't use it because he didn't pay his cable bill? Cmon TiVo, this is getting ridiculous.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

murgatroyd said:


> Thanks for the heads-up.
> 
> In the same spirit, the word you wanted to use is spelled 'lien'.
> 
> Jan


Just checking how closely people read what is posted..you get the 4 stars.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

funtoupgrade said:


> Have your friend keep calling TiVo and asking for a supervisor each time. I think they are free to make special offers, and you might get a sympathetic one. Did he/she ask specifically if the cancellation fee could be paid to get the unit clear, or if the monthly contract could be switched to him/her?


If you purchase something you do not expect to pay an additional amount to use it because it has a lien on it, if you purchase a TiVo like a home I guess you would know because you would have a title search done...
You can't switch monthly, you can get monthly service cancelled because the original owner does not owe money to TiVo, its when the original owner owes money to TiVo the problem starts.

He is giving me the TiVo to try to fix things up for him with TiVo, as he now has a case #


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Mars said:


> So what's next, I buy a tv from somebody and find out I can't use it because he didn't pay his cable bill? Cmon TiVo, this is getting ridiculous.


Great information from the OP.

TiVo has been going down the road of "ridiculous ideas" for some time.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wolflord11 said:


> Great information from the OP.
> 
> TiVo has been going down the road of "ridiculous ideas" for some time.


well a TV and the cable company are not from the same company.

You do a title search on the house because once you own it the liens are yours as they attach to the property. You would need to sue in civil court to make the other person pay at that point.

if TiVo did not do this then those that try and skip out on their legal commitments get the extra reward of getting cash for the box.

so do a subscription search on any used TiVo you buy. If the seller will not give you the TSN then move on.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well a TV and the cable company are not from the same company.
> 
> You do a title search on the house because once you own it the liens are yours as they attach to the property. You would need to sue in civil court to make the other person pay at that point.
> 
> ...


Good point: If your purchasing the unit on E-Bay you can ask the seller after you win and before you pay, for the TSN, but at a flee market you would have to have TiVos tel. number handy and sit on you cell phone for them to answer..a pain


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

lessd said:


> Just checking how closely people read what is posted..you get the 4 stars.


My high school trig teacher used to do that, too. 

He'd say 'bad piece of chalk' -- or erase the 'mistake' and say 'where?'

Jan


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## dvr4me (Jul 10, 2007)

Mars said:


> So what's next, I buy a tv from somebody and find out I can't use it because he didn't pay his cable bill? Cmon TiVo, this is getting ridiculous.


Sometimes when we buy things, we become the proud owners of someone else's problems.

Take for example a couple in Eagan, MN who purchased a property which was later found to have an illegal concrete dump buried in the yard. The city/county (I don't recall which) swoops in and says you either take care of it or we will do the work and bill you $90,000.

Or the person who wants to buy a home that has a lien on it because of an unpaid water bill by the previous owner who abandoned the home.

Things like this do happen. Although it's not the new owners fault that the Tivo has an unpaid bill attached to it, it is also not Tivo's fault the previous owner didn't pay his bill. Since the unit was bought at a flea market, there really isn't any recourse. Hopefully Tivo works it out in favor to the new customer, but in all likelihood that box may never run Tivo's service again.


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## jtlytle (May 17, 2005)

"There's a sucker born every minute"


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

dvr4me said:


> Things like this do happen. Although it's not the new owners fault that the Tivo has an unpaid bill attached to it, it is also not Tivo's fault the previous owner didn't pay his bill.


Does this happen with used cellphones? That's the model TiVo was trying to emulate...

Either way, a decent percentage of people used to learn of and get their first TiVo from ebay. This sort of thing sours potential new customers who won't become new customers and will tell their friends they just got screwed by TiVo and possibly come on here and ***** to a wider audience as well. So _maybe_ it's not TiVo's fault, but it is TiVo's problem.


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

dvr4me said:


> Sometimes when we buy things, we become the proud owners of someone else's problems.
> 
> Take for example a couple in Eagan, MN who purchased a property which was later found to have an illegal concrete dump buried in the yard. The city/county (I don't recall which) swoops in and says you either take care of it or we will do the work and bill you $90,000.
> 
> ...


 Of course it's TiVo's "fault" that the TiVo had an unpaid bill _attached_ to it. That's their policy. It's not some immutable law of physics or act of God that ties the unpaid bill to the new owner's box. TiVo should hire their own goons to do their debt collection, and the leave buyers in the secondary market out of it. BOO!


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Given the pricing on S2s, and the fact that TiVo requires a commitment on even used boxes, why, just why, would someone buy a used TiVo? Also note, the issue is not unique to TiVo, DirecTV has the same issue.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

SullyND said:


> Given the pricing on S2s, and the fact that TiVo requires a commitment on even used boxes, why, just why, would someone buy a used TiVo?


People want to believe they are getting a "bargain". That's why they go to flea markets in the first place.

It's just like buying on fleabay. Much of the crap sold there is way overpriced. It gets bid up irrationally, and yet people still believe they are getting a "bargain".


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## dvr4me (Jul 10, 2007)

minckster said:


> Of course it's TiVo's "fault" that the TiVo had an unpaid bill _attached_ to it. That's their policy. It's not some immutable law of physics or act of God that ties the unpaid bill to the new owner's box. TiVo should hire their own goons to do their debt collection, and the leave buyers in the secondary market out of it. BOO!


Is this what you mean to say? "Tivo should _hire_ their own goons to do their debt collection and charge the *honest paying * Tivo subscribers more so they can write off the bad debts of unscrupulous customer's so the secondary market of people who want to buy cheap used equipment from third parties won't suffer?"

I say "Caveat Emptor" to the buyers of used equipment and leave the honest paying customers out of it.



davezatz said:


> Does this happen with used cellphones? That's the model TiVo was trying to emulate...
> 
> Either way, a decent percentage of people used to learn of and get their first TiVo from ebay. This sort of thing sours potential new customers who won't become new customers and will tell their friends they just got screwed by TiVo and possibly come on here and ***** to a wider audience as well. So maybe it's not TiVo's fault, but it is TiVo's problem.


As far as used cellphones... I have no idea. I wouldn't buy a used cellphone. With the deals on new phones, why would anyone want a used one?

They didn't get screwed by Tivo. They got screwed by the seller of the used equipment. If they bought it on Ebay, at least they can give negative feedback and potentially file a fraud claim.

Tivo didn't do anything wrong here. The person who didn't pay their bill is who is at fault. Why should Tivo suck it up? You can buy a series 2 DT direct from Tivo for $99. You have to buy the service anyway, used or new. So why risk buying used from ebay unless you can be sure the Tivo in question is free and clear?

When you buy it off the table of a flea market... Again, caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

dvr4me said:


> As far as used cellphones... I have no idea. I wouldn't buy a used cellphone. With the deals on new phones, why would anyone want a used one?


Because they want to stay on the same carrier? They don't want to extend their contract? Who knows. I merely asked as a comparison since Rogers or someone indicated many conference calls ago he was looking to this sort of model.



> They didn't get screwed by Tivo. They got screwed by the seller of the used equipment. If they bought it on Ebay, at least they can give negative feedback and potentially file a fraud claim. Tivo didn't do anything wrong here. The person who didn't pay their bill is who is at fault. Why should Tivo suck it up?


Factually you may be right, but this is an issue of perception and a potential customer doesn't necessarily know what we on the forum know. TiVo is fighting an unbalanced battle against satellite and cable who are embedded in homes and they probably can't win on price, so they need all the goodwill and positivity they can get. Requiring a commitment on used boxes and issues like these can sour potential new customers and limit the secondary market of folks looking to get their first unit from a friend, ebay, flea market, whatever. Maybe the new marketing guy will have some impact in this area.

EDIT: As to the 'unbalanced battle' - that is why the Comcast and Cox deals are potentially humongous. Back to this case, TiVo is voluntarily leaving subscription dollars on the table (and a new commitment!) when they could simultaneously be going after the original offender for money owed.


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

dvr4me said:


> Is this what you mean to say? "Tivo should _hire_ their own goons to do their debt collection and charge the *honest paying * Tivo subscribers more so they can write off the bad debts of unscrupulous customers so the secondary market of people who want to buy cheap used equipment from third parties won't suffer?"


 If I had meant to say that, I would have. I didn't, so I didn't.

Do you pay TiVo an amount each month equal to their expenses divided by the number of subscribers? TiVo sets their prices and organizes their business to maximize their long-term profits. The customers decide whether or not to pay TiVo's price. The company isn't a socialist enterprise and we're not in this together. If TiVo could make gobs and gobs and gobs of money, well in excess of their expenses, at the prices the market would bear, they would. Witness Microsoft!

Does TiVo's policy maximize their long-term profitability? I argue no. They're faced with a new customer who is theirs for the taking and instead of saying, "Welcome!", they say, "Go away! Some one else didn't pay his bill and it's _your_ problem." Spending several hundred dollars to acquire another customer doesn't make any sense. Penny wise, pound foolish.


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## Hokie-Dave (Feb 19, 2006)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> People want to believe they are getting a "bargain". That's why they go to flea markets in the first place.
> 
> It's just like buying on fleabay. Much of the crap sold there is way overpriced. It gets bid up irrationally, and yet people still believe they are getting a "bargain".


I was thinking the same thing yesterday. I was looking at prices on the regular S2's (no DT), there were a couple new in box selling for $75-110 PLUS shipping. I just went to Circuit City last night and bought an 80 DT Series 2 for $58.99 last night after the $150 rebate.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

This problem does happen with cell phones so you should check the ESN with your cell phone Co before you pay/buy. that would solve two problems compatibility with your cell phone co and if the unit is locked for non payment.

As for TiVo one of many reason to buy a used TiVo is to xfer your existing monthly contract onto a different unit, you can't get the rebate on a new TiVo doing that.


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## Hokie-Dave (Feb 19, 2006)

lessd said:


> As for TiVo one of many reason to buy a used TiVo is to xfer your existing monthly contract onto a different unit, you can't get the rebate on a new TiVo doing that.


Good point, didn't think about replacements/upgrades on a monthly contract.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

lessd said:


> This problem does happen with cell phones so you should check the ESN with your cell phone Co before you pay/buy. that would solve two problems compatibility with your cell phone co and if the unit is locked for non payment.


I do not know if all carriers are like this, but Sprint is. The Cellphone is tied to your account, if you sell it to someone else, Sprint will not activate it on yours. Also, if the Seller tries to put another phone on their account, they are out of luck.

Their Account is locked, all phones on their account are locked.

Now, with Tivo, why must the units be locked to an account? If you buy someone elses who owes a balance, that should be between Tivo and that customer.

Directv is hard to say about the matter, sometimes they will add the unit to your account, sometimes not. Depends on the CSR and Card Activation unit.

But as always: Buyer Beware.


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## dvr4me (Jul 10, 2007)

minckster said:


> The company isn't a socialist enterprise and we're not in this together.
> 
> Does TiVo's policy maximize their long-term profitability? I argue no. They're faced with a new customer who is theirs for the taking and instead of saying, "Welcome!", they say, "Go away! Some one else didn't pay his bill and it's _your_ problem." Spending several hundred dollars to acquire another customer doesn't make any sense. Penny wise, pound foolish.


Actually the customers ARE in it together. If Tivo doesn't have enough customers at a given price point to make a long term profit, the company fails. Lose-lose for everyone.

I'd argue that a "new customer" wouldn't be shopping for a Tivo on ebay. They'd pick one up in store with one of the many rebates. In fact there was a "free after rebate" deal with Best buy in June.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Follow up 

I (the OP) just talked with TiVo and they said that within 7 to 10 days they will free up the TiVo for my friend (he gave me the case number and asked me to talk to TiVo). TiVo knows that the original owner does not have possession of the unit now as i have made a call from my ZIP. We are willing to wait the time and see if it does clear up. I will re-post after 10 days to give you all a progress report, but this process is a pain.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dvr4me said:


> Actually the customers ARE in it together. If Tivo doesn't have enough customers at a given price point to make a long term profit, the company fails. Lose-lose for everyone.
> 
> I'd argue that a "new customer" wouldn't be shopping for a Tivo on ebay. They'd pick one up in store with one of the many rebates. In fact there was a "free after rebate" deal with Best buy in June.


What does new to do with it..any TiVo that gets service from TiVo is the same money in their pocket, new matters not. Go to Best Buy and find a Humax TiVo with a DVD in it, they do not make them anymore, E-Bay is the best place (I know) to find them.


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## Soapm (May 9, 2007)

wolflord11 said:


> Now, with Tivo, why must the units be locked to an account? If you buy someone elses who owes a balance, that should be between Tivo and that customer.


I agree, the contract was with the owner and not the unit. However, Tivo is in a tough spot because there is no way a person will make good on the contract once the unit is sold. This is why a three year commitment that you pay monthly is a fairly bad idea. I understand why they do it but they will spend more than the balance trying to collect the $150 or $200. So their only option is to lock the unit which will put pressure from the buyer on to the deliquent seller. Basically saying to the seller your unit is worthless unless you make good on your agreement.

The other option is to only offer prepay extended contracts. The problem with this, if you sell the unit mid agreement then either the buyer will have to pay the balance of the contract to the seller or Tivo owes the original owner a refund.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Soapm said:


> The other option is to only offer prepay extended contracts. The problem with this, if you sell the unit mid agreement then either the buyer will have to pay the balance of the contract to the seller or Tivo owes the original owner a refund.


TiVo will owe nothing to the original owner, its the original owner that will have the loss, once the TiVo is xfered the contract ends and the original owner owes nothing to TiVo, and if the new owner activates the unit, TiVo will end up being paid twice, Prepaid contracts with TiVo (as of now) are not transferable to another person (like Lifetime Service is). If the new buyer wants to keep the service on the original owner account I guess he can (and if they agree on money to do so, I guess they can) but the buyer will not be able to use MRV (if he had another TiVo on his own account).

For most people the arrangements with TiVo contracts gives them a headache. I have not recommended a new TiVo to friends after TiVo stopped Lifetime Service, all 40 or so TiVos I recommended to people (and they bought) had Lifetime Service put on them, the system was easy to understand, buy the TiVo, buy the Lifetime Service, send in for your rebate, all done till the unit breaks. (none have yet as I had my friends with Series 1 sell them on E-Bay and buy the Series 2 just before the Lifetime Service option stopped being offered)


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## Soapm (May 9, 2007)

Didn't know that about the prepay subscriptions. I guess Tivo is concerned about future cash flow which is why the stopped lifetime subscriptions. I guess we'll have to live with their current process unless we want a bunch of adds popping up all the time.


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## tincan (Dec 30, 2007)

I am in the middle of a transaction for a S2 DT. Seller advertised it as new, but the picture shows it removed from the box.

I called TiVo and confirmed the TSN is not delinquent, but the phone rep advised that the current box owner had to call to transfer service to me. I was taken aback by her advisement and pointedly asked if the box is in service on another account. She said she couldn't tell me yes or no.

I thought, assuming the seller is telling the truth, that I could simply change the TSN online. He says he is selling it for a friend who was given the unit by a client who couldn't use it.

Should I try doing the TSN change online before meeting the seller? Will the TSN changer reject the change if the new TSN is associated with a current account? Can I immediately revert to my current TSN without jeopardizing the status of my current S2 (just in case we do not complete the transaction)?


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## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

tincan said:


> I am in the middle of a transaction for a S2 DT. Seller advertised it as new, but the picture shows it removed from the box.
> 
> I called TiVo and confirmed the TSN is not delinquent, but the phone rep advised that the current box owner had to call to transfer service to me. I was taken aback by her advisement and pointedly asked if the box is in service on another account. She said she couldn't tell me yes or no.
> 
> ...


I am not sure, but I thout the Series 2 was free after rebate on various website's?

If Tivo CSR is telling you the devise owner need to transfer service to you, it IS subscribed. Doesn't amtter if it is 1 day or 1 week or 1 month.

What happens if the person does not or can not transfer service to you?

You have a nice 'slightly-new' doorstop.


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## tincan (Dec 30, 2007)

cowboys2002 said:


> I am not sure, but I thout the Series 2 was free after rebate on various website's?


I'm aware of the current rebates. The opportunity for me is to get a new (again, taking the seller's word which I understand is iffy) for less than the after-rebate price, and without hassling with the rebate.



cowboys2002 said:


> If Tivo CSR is telling you the devise owner need to transfer service to you, it IS subscribed. Doesn't amtter if it is 1 day or 1 week or 1 month.


That's what I was thinking, but being new to TiVo and TCF, I did not know if that was simply part of the "transfer TiVo ownership" script, or she was telling me it is subscribed without actually telling me.

Is the pre-purchase TSN change worth trying?


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## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

Well, that is up to you to decide.

Even at the TCF store (see banner to the right), you make $20 after the rebate.

How much is the Tivo with shipping fees? 

I realize that many people hate rebates, but in this case you know you will get a new unsubscribed unit and a rebate if you follow the instructions. I have NEVER missed out on a rebate (knocks on wood).


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## tincan (Dec 30, 2007)

cowboys2002 said:


> Well, that is up to you to decide.
> 
> Even at the TCF store (see banner to the right), you make $20 after the rebate.
> 
> How much is the Tivo with shipping fees?


I apologize that I wasn't clear. This potential purchase is for a dual tuner S2. I already have, and the TCF store deal is for a single tuner S2.


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## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

Didn't realize that.

That makes your cost on TCF $74 (??) after rebate. A few weeksago Big Lots had Tivo's for sell for less than $75 without any rebate hassles.

I don't recal of the was single or dual tuner though.


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## tincan (Dec 30, 2007)

You're right -- the box has been activated. I tried a new activation with my existing TSN to see what would happen, got an "already activated" error, and confirmed the same with the S2 DT's TSN.


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## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

So, the question is:

Is the cost of the new box net rebate $74 less than what the seller wants for the unit?

Are you "sure" the box doesn't have a balance on it?

Many people feel rebates are a hassle. But what kind of hassle to you anticipate with a used box from a person selling "for a friend" who stated the box was new and you determined it isn't? A moderate red flag and best.


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## tincan (Dec 30, 2007)

cowboys2002 said:


> So, the question is:
> 
> Is the cost of the new box net rebate $74 less than what the seller wants for the unit?


The price is less than $74, if that's what you're asking.



cowboys2002 said:


> Are you "sure" the box doesn't have a balance on it?


Yes. I confirmed that twice with TiVo.



cowboys2002 said:


> Many people feel rebates are a hassle. But what kind of hassle to you anticipate with a used box from a person selling "for a friend" who stated the box was new and you determined it isn't? A moderate red flag and best.


Very true. Thank you for your input. I appreciate it.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Mars said:


> So what's next, I buy a tv from somebody and find out I can't use it because he didn't pay his cable bill? Cmon TiVo, this is getting ridiculous.


Little bit different situation. TiVo subsidizes the cost of the box based on your agreement to a service contract. I'm not aware of any cable companies subsidizing TVs.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

tincan said:


> I am in the middle of a transaction for a S2 DT. Seller advertised it as new, but the picture shows it removed from the box.
> 
> I called TiVo and confirmed the TSN is not delinquent, but the phone rep advised that the current box owner had to call to transfer service to me. I was taken aback by her advisement and pointedly asked if the box is in service on another account. She said she couldn't tell me yes or no.


You may be getting a bonanza!
The only reason to transfer service is because the Tivo has a lifetime subscription (other prepaid subs are not transferable). In order to put any other tivo on your account, the previous subscription needs to be canceled, you can't just take over someone else's monthly subscription, so there is no transfer involved.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

tincan said:


> I apologize that I wasn't clear. This potential purchase is for a dual tuner S2.


Isn't this offer still running?

http://dynamic.tivo.com/0.11.LP_kz.asp?a=ywca

This comes with service. Are you trying to transfer service from and older model to a new DT? If so, this offer isn't for you.


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## tincan (Dec 30, 2007)

greg_burns said:


> Isn't this offer still running?
> 
> http://dynamic.tivo.com/0.11.LP_kz.asp?a=ywca


It appears so, and is something I am also considering. Thanks!


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## tincan (Dec 30, 2007)

I thought it was only fair to update the thread with what I ended up doing.

I decided against purchasing from the seller whose box was in a service commitment.

I found another seller whose box was not in a commitment (and didn't misrepresent the box as new), showed him the YWCA offer and talked him down to $25. I confirmed the box was "free and clear" prior to purchase by attempting subscription with its TSN. This was an in-person transaction at the seller's home.

Thanks *cowboys2002*, *scandia101* and *greg_burns* for answering this newbie's questions and providing guidance.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

lessd said:


> Just checking how closely people read what is posted..you get the 4 stars.


LOL.


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