# Can you use a REAL TiVo, with DirecTv service?



## nribecca (Jun 19, 2007)

OK, the old DirecTV boxes (made by Samsung) had TiVo built in; 
now they are replacing them with their own home grown version, 
which, well in a word, sucks.

It loops all the time, locks up while fast forwarding and rewinding, it basically rotts.
they say they are aware of the problem, it was introduced in the previous upgrade, but there is still no estimate as to when it will be fixed.

So, I wondered if there was a box made that was a true TiVo device that would be fully functional as a real TiVo, using the direcTv service? Please tell me there is a way!

Oh, and use the network to update, and NOT a telephone line, (geesh, new millennium TV technology, using modems, how backwards.

THANKS!!

NickR


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Sure, get a standalone TiVo, Series 2 since you want network connectivity, and a compatible DirecTV receiver.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Get a Series 2 Tivo. The ST needs a Network adapter in order to use the Network.

The DT has a Ethernet connection, so no Adapter is needed.

You will need a Standard Directv Receiver to control the Tivo Box. The D10 and earlier models can use the IR Blaster (Which Sucks) or the Low Speed Data Connector.

The D11 and Newer D12 can only use the IR Blaster.


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## captain_video (Mar 1, 2002)

You're better off with a DirecTivo model if you have DirecTV. It's far less expensive to use and is much more versatile. If your Samsung model is not working then look on ebay and find a replacement. All S2 DTivos are essentially the same internally and use the exact same software. The only differences are that the earlier S2 models (VDR39, DSR7000, and HDVR2) are non-RID models and the later ones have the RID feature.

As indicated, you can also get a standalone Tivo to use with DirecTV. However, the picture quality isn't as good since you'd be recording the analog output from a set-top DTV receiver (also required) and not the digital datastream directly as you would with a DTivo. The monthly fee is less for a DTivo ($5.99 for the DVR fee plus $4.99 for each additional receiver or DVR vs. $12.99 for the SA Tivo plus $4.99 for the DTV receiver). The DTivo also has dual tuners and records in Dolby Digital.

FYI - a DTivo is a "REAL" Tivo.


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## nribecca (Jun 19, 2007)

Thanks for all the great replies, but please bear in mind I am a novice, and have no idea what any of these terms mean: S2, SA, RID, SD, DT, D10, D11, d12, IR blaster

I believe S2 is series 2, and DT is DirecTv, IR Blaster uses the infrared remote interface, but, I am purely guessing.

Do you know of a DirecTiVo that used the USB connector? 
Or, how to hack it into functioning?
Or, do they all need to connect to a phone line?

Thanks again for all the info!!


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## ttodd1 (Nov 6, 2003)

You got answers - either you get a Tivo box and a DTV receiver (to have REAL Tivo)
or get a DTivo and go to the Underground and hack it via the Zipper. "Real" Tivos need to be plugged into a phone (or network I believe) to get guide data, a DTivo - hacked or not - does not need a phone UNLESS you want to do PPV via the remote.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

nribecca said:


> Thanks for all the great replies, but please bear in mind I am a novice, and have no idea what any of these terms mean: S2, SA, RID, SD, DT, D10, D11, d12, IR blaster
> 
> I believe S2 is series 2, and DT is DirecTv, IR Blaster uses the infrared remote interface, but, I am purely guessing.
> 
> ...


This may help you:

S2 = Series 2.
SA = Stand Alone. (A unit by itself)
RID = Unit ID. (Basically the Serial Number)
ST = Single Tuner.
DT = Dual Tuner.
IR Blaster = The Infared Remote Controller.

The D10, D11 and D12 are Directv Standard Receiver Models.

There are the Directv/Tivo units which are all in one units (like the old Samsung Box). They are a Directv Receiver, and DVR in one with Tivo software. They are the best of the best in the DVR World.

Price wise, if you get a Tivo unit and a Directv Receiver, you would pay $12.95 a Month for Tivo Service and $4.95 a Month for the Directv receiver. With a Directv/Tivo unit you would pay $5.99 a Month DVR fee for every DVR in the home and $4.99 a Month Receiver fee. So the Directv/Tivo unit is cheaper.

captain_video had some good points 

The Directv/Tivo units do not have functioning USB ports, they are disabled if they have them. You need to hack the unit in order to get functioning Network support.

Also, Tivo units need a phone line, where as Directv/Tivo units do not unless you watch PPV and order by the remote. You can order online without the phoneline.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

wolflord11 said:


> RID = Unit ID. (Basically the Serial Number)


It is not the serial number. The serial number is the service id. RID = Receiver ID which is a second level of security to prevent signal theft.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

rminsk said:


> It is not the serial number. The serial number is the service id. RID = Receiver ID which is a second level of security to prevent signal theft.


I was giving the OP the basics. But for your information here it is:

IRD number: A unique 4-byte ID number programmed into every IRD/receiver at the factory. The IRD number enables DIRECTV to send instructions to any single IRD via the DataStream without affecting any other IRD. The IRD number is also used in a process known as marrying where a new or unmarried access card inserted Into the IRD is immediately programmed by the IRD with the IRD number. From that point on, that card will only work In the IRD that it is married to. The marriage process was designed to prevent people from using a legit subscription card in more than one receiver thus forcing people with multiple receivers in their homes to subscribe them all. It also prevents someone with a premium subscription to take their card over to a friend or relative's home who subscribes at a lower level and using it in their receiver. Most hacks overcame the marriage process by implementing code that allows a card to marry every receiver it is inserted in.

Is that better?


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

wolflord11 said:


> Is that better?


Yes, thank you.


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## nribecca (Jun 19, 2007)

Fantastic beginner course!

One last question...

How does one hack the DTIVO, like th Samsung, to use the USB and connect to a network?

I'm not looking to steal anything, just use the technology as it was intended.

There is no dial-tone in my house, we have 4 cell phones, and don't need any other numbers. The only calls we ever got on the home phone were from Telemarketers! So, I converted to Vonage, cheapest option, just to keep my d-TiVo ahppy, and stop the never ending email reminders to "MAKE A CALL SOON", but, it had to make 10 attempts on average, in order to connect (Modems over VOIP have a very hard time, sometimes)

Again, thanks to everyone for some great info!


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## captain_video (Mar 1, 2002)

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the RID and IRD numbers are two different entities. The IRD terminology existed long before DirecTV implemented RID numbers. FYI - IRD means "Integrated Receiver/Descrambler". The IRD number is essentially the same as the serial number and is usually used when referring to standalone DTV receivers and not DVRs. Wolflord's description of how the IRD number is used is accurate as far as I can remember. You had to supply both the IRD number and the access card number when activating a receiver. RID means "Receiver ID" and is a separate layer of security added by DTV to all late model receivers and DVRs.



> How does one hack the DTIVO, like th Samsung, to use the USB and connect to a network?


Look in the Underground section and find the threads that discuss the Zipper. I prefer to hack my Tivos manually but the Zipper will get you what you're asking for. It just won't explain how the hacks are installed.


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

Hacking the DTiVo units is very easy. 

See the TiVo underground here on TiVo Community. 

An alternative is to use DVRUpgrade Instant Cake and Hacking tools. 

You will need some basic understanding of computers to hook up hard drives and add the correct files. 

You will need a basic understanding of networking to get the TiVo connected to a home network.

You will need to become familiar with FTP and Telnet to get all of the hacks working. 

There are prehacked units for sale on eBay for a price (not cheap). 

You will still need to be able to follow the instructions to get them working on your network.


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## captain_video (Mar 1, 2002)

> There are prehacked units for sale on eBay for a price (not cheap).


That there is really bad advice to be giving someone. When you consider the fact that pre-hacked units contain copyrighted software that is being distributed without the permission of the authors you are basically advising someone that it's OK to buy stolen property.  Consisder also that many of the people selling said pre-hacked units tend to leave you hanging if you have a problem, it's simply not a wise investment for most people and it's a major caveat emptor. You're always better off learning the process for yourself.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

nribecca said:


> Fantastic beginner course!
> 
> One last question...
> 
> ...


There are many forums with ways to hack a DTivo. There is Software called the "Zipper" which does most for you.

What is there to Steal? LOL


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

captain_video said:


> That there is really bad advice to be giving someone. *When you consider the fact that pre-hacked units contain copyrighted software that is being distributed without the permission of the authors you are basically advising someone that it's OK to buy stolen property*.  Consisder also that many of the people selling said pre-hacked units tend to leave you hanging if you have a problem, it's simply not a wise investment for most people and it's a major caveat emptor. You're always better off learning the process for yourself.


What if someone hacked a unit and then sold it to you along with the Software they used? The software is not pirated at all.

Also, I do not know if this is right or not, but I beleive the "Zipper" for example is Open Source. There are no Copyrights.

Also, Hacking itself tends to be a "Grey" Area. Are you not breaking the law by Hacking someone elses DVR unit? So you are breaking the law in even hacking, and yet you are saying its o.k as long as you hack it yourself?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

It is not piracy in the sense of stealing software, but a copyright violation, in that you are distributing his/her works without their permission, in a manner against their intent probably.

The Zipper itself is open (I believe), but to build the Zipper "system", you need to use some of the aformentioned copyrighted softwares.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

wolflord11 said:


> What if someone hacked a unit and then sold it to you along with the Software they used? The software is not pirated at all.


If they used _killhdinitrd_ to do it, then they are definitely breaking the rules associated with the use of that software.

There's more to it than that, of course, but its this particular one that I take issue with since DVRupgrade did pay a substantial amount for rights that noone else is entitled to (in a commercial context).


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## ttodd1 (Nov 6, 2003)

wolflord11 said:


> What if someone hacked a unit and then sold it to you along with the Software they used?


Then that person should remove said hacks that are copyrighted UNLESS they get permission from the author.


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## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

Stll a SA Tivo might be more expensive but it's where the future is for Tivo software upgrades and your not married to DirecTV.

Bonanza


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## captain_video (Mar 1, 2002)

> What if someone hacked a unit and then sold it to you along with the Software they used? The software is not pirated at all.
> 
> Also, I do not know if this is right or not, but I beleive the "Zipper" for example is Open Source. There are no Copyrights.
> 
> Also, Hacking itself tends to be a "Grey" Area. Are you not breaking the law by Hacking someone elses DVR unit? So you are breaking the law in even hacking, and yet you are saying its o.k as long as you hack it yourself?


I never said anything about piracy. The Zipper itself is not copyrighted AFAIK but the programs you download from the supplied links definitely are, which is why Russ and Gunny don't include then with the Zipper program. Almost every hack that the Zipper and the enhancements script install are copyrighted by the authors. If you check the readme files that come with each one you will find this to be the case. I don't know of any of the authors that will permit the distribution of their software without permission. The one exception is if you had hacked the unit for personal use and then resold it at a later time, it may be permissible to include some of the hacks. If you paid the license for killhdinitrd by downloading the CD image from DVRUpgrade then you should be able to include that with the Tivo, but you may have to include the CD image along with it.

The people that sell pre-hacked Tivos on ebay, such as digitalrecorder.com and shaunisnow, just to name a couple, are selling you copyrighted software without permission. That would be like making bootleg copies of Microsoft Office and selling them on ebay, yet most people don't realize this.

The hack programs are available for personal use only and are OK to use as long as you don't distribute them. There's no problem with hacking someone else's unit that they own and charging them for your time. It is illegal to hack a unit and then sell it with the hacks installed as an incentive to turn a higher profit. You cannot include the hacks as part of the sale.

There is nothing illegal with the hacks themselves, although disabling encryption may walk a fine line with the DMCA. Other than that, all of the hacks are perfectly above board.

The "Grey Area" you refer to has to do with the connotation of the word "Hacking". Most people consider hacking to be a shady business and cringe when they hear the word. In reality, hacking, at least where Tivos are concerned, is nothing more than the act of incorporating features not available with a stock unit. As long as they don't address the issue of circumventing the Tivo or DVR service, nobody is going to complain or get upset about them being modified. If anything, it helps promote the sales of Tivos over other DVRs since you can do more with them.


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## zoma4 (Jul 20, 2004)

I've read the S3 doesn't work with DirecTV. Is that true? Why couldn't I just connect it the same as the S2 with the IR blaster?


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## psyton (Dec 28, 2002)

Doesn't killhdinitrd modify the Tivo kernel binary? Did Tivo sign off on it?


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## captain_video (Mar 1, 2002)

> I've read the S3 doesn't work with DirecTV. Is that true? Why couldn't I just connect it the same as the S2 with the IR blaster?


The S3 is designed to work with digital QAM64 or 256 systems as well as analog cable and OTA ATSC transmissions. DirecTV uses a completely different proprietary transmission method. There are no analog inputs other than the coaxial cable input which may allow you to connect an external DTV receiver using the coax output of the receiver. I doubt that you'd get any program guide data for it, however. It's not really set up to use it with an external sat receiver. Besides, why would you want to since you can get a DTivo for much less? If you have DirecTV then get yourself an HR10-250 HDTivo or HR20-700 HD DVR. There's a S3 Tivo FAQ at the top of this forum that should have the answers to most of your questions, although some of the data is already out of date and many of the links don't work anymore.



> Doesn't killhdinitrd modify the Tivo kernel binary? Did Tivo sign off on it?


Yes, it does modify the kernel and no, Tivo did not sign off on it AFAIK. However, Tivo posts the source code for it's software on the Tivo website. I don't know the difference between open source software and the moon so one of the software gurus would have to explain how that all works. I believe it is open source software which pretty much means you can modify it any way you like. There are lots of custom kernels floating around for use with different Tivo software versions. When you consider that many of the current features available with the Tivo software were first developed as hacks I would think that Tivo encourages 3rd party modifications of this type. You can thank some of the folks at DDB for many of the features you enjoy today on your Tivos.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

captain_video said:


> The people that sell pre-hacked Tivos on ebay, such as digitalrecorder.com and shaunisnow, just to name a couple, are selling you copyrighted software without permission. That would be like making bootleg copies of Microsoft Office and selling them on ebay, yet most people don't realize this.


Well if this is the case then maybe some of us should start reporting their listings to EBay and get them removed.

I know the differences between "Hacking" to enhance features and "Hacking" as an illegal activity.

Try selling a bootleg copy of MS Office on Ebay and see where it gets you.

It could also make the Tivo's look bad. Perhaps we should all start addressing this issue.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

wolflord11 said:


> Well if this is the case then maybe some of us should start reporting their listings to EBay and get them removed.


Actually, I've been doing that for years.

Unfortunately, some of the offenders are bold enough to perjure themselves by denying that they are violating anyone's proprietary rights (we've purchased the products and established that to not be the case). And even more unfortunately, the EBAY folks will not take any definitive action unless the owners file and get an injunction in Federal court.

So it is a stalemate, with EBAY benefiting by harboring the thieves, and the thieves benefiting, as well.

The best way to stop them is by not supporting them with your $.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Bonanzaair said:


> Stll a SA Tivo might be more expensive but it's where the future is for Tivo software upgrades and your not married to DirecTV.
> 
> Bonanza


And being married to a cable company is better?


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## nribecca (Jun 19, 2007)

OK, so I downloaded all the software, and burned the ISO, loaded up the TiVo hard drive, but my PC cant see it... it's like it's not there. It doesnt appear in MY computer as a disk, it is a USB or NetDisk, and the Device Manager sees the NDAS bus OK, and when I tried it as a USB device it saw the disk, but I cannot find it as a disk to map to it?? Is it unrecognizable in it's current format (TiVo) ??


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## nribecca (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm afraid there is no way on earth to do this with a laptop, huh? since I cannot install that normal sized disk into my laptop, and the software needed to see the NDAS or USB drive wont load while booting from the ISO disk... Am I totally out of luck, here?


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## poppagene (Dec 29, 2001)

nribecca said:


> I'm afraid there is no way on earth to do this with a laptop, huh? since I cannot install that normal sized disk into my laptop, and the software needed to see the NDAS or USB drive wont load while booting from the ISO disk... Am I totally out of luck, here?


Don't you have any friends with a desktop computer?


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## nribecca (Jun 19, 2007)

If there is no way to use the LapTop, I will have to install it into the "kid's" Dell.
Thanks


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## nribecca (Jun 19, 2007)

In my kids DELL, replaced his hard drive with the one from the TiVo, booted up on the image created by the process (above) the instructions say to enter through the prompts, but I get to PTVupgrade /# prompt, and it wont take HDC, HDD anything like that, which was the first instruction in the directions. What am I missing, NOW? 
Thanks 
I dont know UNIX much,  except where it resembles DOS, so I feel like a real novice.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Do not REPLACE the HD in your kids Dell. You should of left the HD in there. That HD was set as Master with the OS and all on it.

Make sure the Jumper switch on the back of the Tivo HD is set to slave. Then hook that up to the Slave Drive on the Ribbon Cable. You hooked it up to the Master.

So you should have:

Cable from Motherboard, Middle Connector (Slave) connected to tivo HD, End Connector (Master) connected to Kids HD.

You can destroy the Boot Sectors on the Tivo HD by doing what you did. Also, without the HD in the kids PC, you have made that a Paperweight. Replace the HD in the kids comp.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Um, everything said above is basically wrong.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Arcady said:


> Um, everything said above is basically wrong.


And why do you say this?


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

I always remove all the drives from my computer before mucking about with TiVo drives. No chances to corrupt the TiVo drive with XP and no chance of wiping all the stuff on the basic computing drive. 

If you removed the drives from the dell, then the TiVo drive you are trying to bake with Instant Cake will be HBA most likely.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

Jerry_K said:


> I always remove all the drives from my computer before mucking about with TiVo drives. No chances to corrupt the TiVo drive with XP and no chance of wiping all the stuff on the basic computing drive.
> 
> If you removed the drives from the dell, then the TiVo drive you are trying to bake with Instant Cake will be HBA most likely.


That probally would be the best, especially for someone just learning the ropes. My setup is:

Drive 1 - PC Hard Drive - IDE 1 - Master

Drive 2 - TiVo Hard Drive - IDE 1 - Slave

Drive 3 - DVD RW Drive - IDE 2 - Master

Drive 4 - CD ROM Drive - IDE 2 - Slave

Simple to do. And the DVD Drive is set as First Boot Device. So its easy to begin the Transfer of the ISO to the Tivo Drive.


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## ttodd1 (Nov 6, 2003)

wolflord11 said:


> You can destroy the Boot Sectors on the Tivo HD by doing what you did. Also, without the HD in the kids PC, you have made that a Paperweight.


Don't think so. How do you figure that the pc is a paperweight? He puts the hard drive back in it and it is just the way it was. Besides keeps you from the possiblity of messing the kids pc up and REALLY making it a paperweight. You will not "destroy" the boot sectors on the Tivo drive with it as Primary Master.


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## nribecca (Jun 19, 2007)

OK, that was fun, 

now, 

what command do I enter at the PTVupgrade /# prompt?
That's where I got lost.

Thanks again.


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## packerfan (Jan 8, 2002)

Buy an r10 off ebay.


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## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

JimSpence said:


> And being married to a cable company is better?


A SA Tivo Series 2 will support cable or satellite. No marriage required.
Series 3 - ah! All those HD channels and Tivo too! Marriage required...for now!

Bonanza


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## ttodd1 (Nov 6, 2003)

nribecca said:


> OK, that was fun,
> 
> now,
> 
> ...


I think this reallly belongs in the upgrade or underground forum.


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## nribecca (Jun 19, 2007)

Unfortunately, all I get in there is a one line reply, which appears to be from someone who didnt read my entire posr before replying.

I say I follow the instructions, but it wont take the commands that the instructions tell me to enter, they reply with follow the instructions.

I say it wont take HDC or HDD where I am supposed to enter it, they say enter HDC or HDD..

so that was a real wheel spinner....


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## ttodd1 (Nov 6, 2003)

If you are referring to this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=355435

Perhaps you could give more info, like how do you have the drives connected, EXACTLY what commands are you typing, is it really seeing your drives as you expect..... Posting a statement that you are doing what some instructions say and it is not working really doesn't give us alot to work with....


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

ttodd1 said:


> If you are referring to this thread:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=355435
> 
> Perhaps you could give more info, like how do you have the drives connected, EXACTLY what commands are you typing, is it really seeing your drives as you expect..... Posting a statement that you are doing what some instructions say and it is not working really doesn't give us alot to work with....


I totally agree with this statement. I little info supplied can go a long way in getting help. People don't have time to try to duplicate your problem and provide help.

However, I have tried to help with a suggestion in the other thread.


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## nribecca (Jun 19, 2007)

Unfortunately, all I get in there is a one line reply, which appears to be from someone who didnt read my entire posr before replying.

I say I follow the instructions, but it wont take the commands that the instructions tell me to enter, they reply with follow the instructions.

I say it wont take HDC or HDD where I am supposed to enter it, they say enter HDC or HDD..

so that was a real wheel spinner....


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

nribecca said:


> Unfortunately, all I get in there is a one line reply, which appears to be from someone who didnt read my entire posr before replying.
> 
> I say I follow the instructions, but it wont take the commands that the instructions tell me to enter, they reply with follow the instructions.
> 
> ...


nribecca,

if you are looking for some help in getting back on track, it would be a good idea to collect your thoughts, and provide some details on exactly what you are attempting to do, and how you are attempting to do it. i've read all of your posts, and am thoroughly confused, mainly because there are a lot of details you are leaving out.

try to answer each of these questions, with as much detail as possible, and its likely that you'll get a much more complete answer; also keep in mind that there are prerequisites to fully understanding the steps to take (ie you have to crawl before you walk), so if there are certain responses you don't understand, you'll need to dig a bit more.

1) exactly what are you attempting to accomplish?
2) what instructions are you using as your guide?
3) specifically, how do you have your PC hardware and drives configured?
4) what utility CD are you using (and where did you get it?)
5) what command, specifically, are you attempting enter and what specific error
are you getting?

One other thing to consider is that your thread is really not posted in the appropriate place; the "upgrade center" of the underground forum is probably a much better place, so what you might want to do is create a new thread, with a descriptive title and the responses to the aforementioned questions (just copy and paste this entire post into your new one) and then reply to this post with a link to the new thread.

Hopefully that gets you going in the right direction.

Lou


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## nribecca (Jun 19, 2007)

Thank you.

the new thread begins here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5270043#post5270043


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