# Series 3 shows up in Best Buy computers



## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

We had a tipster who works for Best Buy write in and tell us that the Series 3 is now in their system and due to be in stock on September 17th for $799

http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/08/27/series-3-to-be-released-september-17th-for-799/


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Already a thread on this:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=313473


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

Sorry, I only read the HDTV Forum, never thought to look in the Coffee House.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Until or unless the forum administrator or moderators create a dedicated forum for the S3 or make an announcement one way or the other, you may want to read both forums. 

It makes sense to come here first to discuss the HD S3, but historically this forum has only served for discussion of DirecTV HD TiVo units, as that's all that existed (HD, I mean). For that reason, the rest of the TiVolution hangs out in the Coffee House, and a lot of threads about S3 have popped up over there. 

Some decisions will eventually have to be made with the other new HD TiVo offerings as well, such as the Comcast and Cox boxes due out in the next year.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Ouch. $799?


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## dylanursula (Jan 5, 2005)

Yep ouch. I for one am prob going to have to wait for the Comcast Tivo now - though knowing me i will still get it. I am just worried if Comcast moves to SDV then I am screwed/


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

MarcusInMD said:


> Ouch. $799?


Yah, but $799 versus $399 for an HR20 that is "leased", that you don't own, that requires a 2 year [email protected]#?...hmm... $799 doesn't sound bad now.

Not bad at all considering its the early-adopter price... Of course I paid nearly $1000 for my HR10, so if I could imagine an upgraded dual-HD-recording TIVO with HMO, faster guide, bigger hard drive, keeps my dual buffers, all of this for LESS than I paid for my HR10, then it seems like a good deal 

-h


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## mattn2 (Mar 23, 2001)

dylanursula said:


> I am just worried if Comcast moves to SDV then I am screwed/


I think if this happens, a simple class action suit would be easily winnable. (They would have violated Federal Law that mandates compliance w/ Cable Card).

I am stuck with comcast that did an extensive "upgrade" less than 2 years ago and did not expand the carrying of the system so all they can have in HD is the local broadcast. (and local OTA broadcast for the Alphabet networks is currently MIA due to NIMBY issues, Denver is only 30 miles away!!!!).

I am torn w/ the S3. To get it for the locals only? I have the HR10-250 for FOX and the HD sat stations.

# Matt

PS. This IS where S3 should be discussed. They are "HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs".


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

mattn2 said:


> I think if this happens, a simple class action suit would be easily winnable. (They would have violated Federal Law that mandates compliance w/ Cable Card).


Yah think the Cable Companies don't have Lawyers, that found a "loophole" in the FCC mandate (and I don't think it is a "law" it is just a FCC regulation, could be wrong though)

If they have an avenue to exploit to eliminate or seriously delay/derail the cable-card effort......... you can bet their sweet potatos they are going to exploit it.

Bottom line... the Cable-Co's DON'T want you to use any other receiver other then the one they can charge you for... they they control 100%.

They got their wish with Cable-Ready TV's... by going to Digital Broadcasts.
Now they are just moving to the next level.


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## StEvEY5036 (Jul 9, 2003)

hey i work at best buy.. why didnt i think of that?? Next time im in ill take a screen shot of the system with all the info about the unit.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Brianstorm....  My turn to play conspiracy theorist.

Would the TiVo Series 3 have had these "leaks" from the Beta Testers?
Shown up in the Best Buy Computer system ?
Or shown up on the TiVo Site.....

If the HR20 wasn't release two weeks ago? 

Or where they not be reactionary to the fact that a main competitor got their product out to market before them.... ? And responding to some of the articles....

 
Note: this is mostly in gest but to a marginal degree.... .........


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

StEvEY5036 said:


> hey i work at best buy.. why didnt i think of that?? Next time im in ill take a screen shot of the system with all the info about the unit.


While you are at it...
Take a look to see if they have a date for Nintendo Wii the hardware, as a bunch of the games are on BestBuy.com with November release dates.


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## StEvEY5036 (Jul 9, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> While you are at it...
> Take a look to see if they have a date for Nintendo Wii the hardware, as a bunch of the games are on BestBuy.com with November release dates.


sure thing


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Yah think the Cable Companies don't have Lawyers, that found a "loophole" in the FCC mandate (and I don't think it is a "law" it is just a FCC regulation, could be wrong though)
> ..


exactly

there IS a provision in the law that permits the FCC to suspend implementation of the mandate if new better technology comes along- what do you think Cable would argue if such a case would get to court...

That said- the FCC is slow as molassas so the only current mandate is for one way devices. If a 2-way cablecard ever were to get done and not support Switched video than there would be a beef. But likely support for switched video will be included in teh 2-way cablecard spec so there's really no way a case could be brought...

PS- there's a law that gives the power to the FCC to create the regulations for cablecard. That's how all regulations work. If an agency makes a regulation that a law didn't give them the authority to create then the regulation is illegal and can be tossed out (that's what happened to the FCC's flag rulings- congress never gave teh FCC the authority to make such regulations so when it gotto court they were thrown out.). Basiacally for real world use laws and regulations are the same to us. For instance the speed limits on most roads are not set by law- but rather a law gave the DOT or other agency the right to creat the speed limits and post the signs. Either way you get a ticket and have to pay it. sometimes regulatory agenices have broad mandates othertimes congress hems them. And still other times congress can control regulations by controlling funding. OSHA is required to protect worker saftey, but if congress gives them no money to develop regulations to protect workers from ergonomic injuries then such regulations wont be created (but OSHA still could fine you based upon the original law that made OSHA that says should protect worker safety- likely there would be a giant court case to determine such an outcome...)


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## wilsonjd (Oct 23, 2002)

The courts say they have to support CableCard:

http://news.com.com/2100-1033-6107359.html?tag=tb


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

wilsonjd said:


> The courts say they have to support CableCard:
> 
> http://news.com.com/2100-1033-6107359.html?tag=tb


You are correct... they say they "have to support" cable-cards

But read that article very carefully... there are plenty of "warning" signs on the angles that Cable-Co's are going to take to either DELAY it, or flat out avoid it all together.

Plus there is the article from USA Today talking about the new technology that TWC was considering that is not compatible with CableCard 1.0 and 2.0.

Note that until 2.0 cable card is standardized, TiVo Series 3 (and other cable card devices) would be one way only... aka just watch and record. But interactive, OnDemand and some of the other features won't be available (anything that needs to talk back to the head end... possible including PPV).

The cable-co's have lawyer and lobbing pools that have managed to do something things that will make your head spin... Aka... got the government in certain states to charge a tax JUST to the SAT customers, ect......

Seriously... and it has nothing to do with TiVo and their Series 3 unit...
This is going to be the first major test of the CableCards both for the technology on a larger scale, and for the Cable Companies willingness to deal with CableCards...

TiVo has a MAJOR obsticle to over come with the TiVo Series 3, and it is out of their control. That is the Cable Cards... and that fact that the VERY powerful cable-co's don't want you to have Cable Cards, and ultimate not have the TiVo Series 3... they want you to have THEIR DVR (even if it is Tivo powered)... just like every provider out there. (SAT, CableCo, and FIOS)


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> Seriously... and it has nothing to do with TiVo and their Series 3 unit...
> This is going to be the first major test of the CableCards both for the technology on a larger scale, and for the Cable Companies willingness to deal with CableCards...


Earl I know that you are in the satalite world but with cable cards (I have Cox Cable) they have been out for a while and a lot of the "problems" that have been reported are not because of the cable cards but the cable card readers... I have a 42" Sony HD tv in my bedroom and I had a cable card in it and about once a day it would freez up. I called sony and they said it was a known propblem and sent out a tech whou switced the reader and for the last 9 months not a prob...

BTW I havent heard of anyone having trouble getting a cable card.. I am not saying it hasnt happened but I dont know of any of the major companies that have been giving people a hard time about getting the card


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## Rombaldi (Aug 17, 2002)

this is somewhere I think that Tivo has bungled BADLY, not just with the S3 but the S2DT as well.

They have effectively put ALL their eggs in the Cablecard/S3 basket, knowing full well that he Cable Companies were going to try to figure out how to kill off CableCard ASAP. They should have covered their tookas and had AT LEAST Component/Svideo/Optical/S-LR/IRBLASTER port along side those CableCard (and it be an either/or as to which it active). If they DON'T have an adapter/addon ready for the eventuality that customers buy a S3 and then in a few months .. oops! CableCard discontinued! Add that to the fact that I could pickup a pair of CHEAP D* HD Receivers and disconnected my HR10-250 and reused the lines in, plugged in the Component lines and viola! A S3 DirecTivo! (so to speak).

Same fumble as on the S2DT that silly RF in jack should have been an either/or with a second set of AV/IRBlaster inputs.. I have two different sat receivers and would have already gotten a DT if it could support two receivers.


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## terryjohnson16 (Feb 4, 2005)

I think Ti-Vo is off their rocker with that price if that is the real price. I don't think people will pay almost $800 for a stupid tivo box 3. Plus, I bet they will charge alot of money for the lifetime subscription, and the month-to-month fee. I am starting to question the seriousness of this product and wonder why its so hyped.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

If they added component HD inputs, the S3 would cost $3000.

And composite/s-video would make it an SD box, so... who cares? We can already buy an SD tivo.


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

Arcady said:


> If they added component HD inputs, the S3 would cost $3000.
> 
> And composite/s-video would make it an SD box, so... who cares? We can already buy an SD tivo.


$3,000?

I'll take 2.

-h


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

terryjohnson16 said:


> I think Ti-Vo is off their rocker with that price if that is the real price. I don't think people will pay almost $800 for a stupid tivo box 3. Plus, I bet they will charge alot of money for the lifetime subscription, and the month-to-month fee. I am starting to question the seriousness of this product and wonder why its so hyped.


yea didnt you hear with the S3 liftime is going to be 10k  Just kidding they dont offer lifetime anylonger.. You might want to read up on that but there are quite a few who will pay the 800 buks


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## Rombaldi (Aug 17, 2002)

Arcady said:


> If they added component HD inputs, the S3 would cost $3000.


Bovine Stuff. You can get component inputs on a $200 Polariod DVD-Recorder (guts by Phillips)



Arcady said:


> And composite/s-video would make it an SD box, so... who cares? We can already buy an SD tivo.


An "SD" box that can record HD OTA. I care.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

When some issue comes up that has a slant that can be highlighted favorably to DirecTV and unfavorably to Tivo, it is very predictable that there will be posts shaded toward that slant.

Obviously there are people who like DirecTV, to varying degrees and for a variety of reasons, and may see Tivo as a competitor. Since there are relatively few restrictions around here on what you can say, obviously this individual has the right to shade that way. But I think we have to keep a person's obvious bias in mind when we read their stuff.

I am clearly biased. I like the Tivo product. That's why I hang around here. There have been times in the past (but not now or recently) when I owned Tivo common ***** [not to be discussed here].

When I express an opinion or present a selected subset of facts about Tivo-related issues here I, like 99.9% of the participants of the forum, should have my comments evaluated as coming from one who is inclined to be favorable to Tivo. Doesn't mean I'm lying or trying to mislead, just that my bias should be considered.

For the 0.1% who choose to hang around with a radically different perspective, it again does not mean they are lying or misleading; we just have to keep in mind where they're coming from. And maybe wonder what they're still doing here at all.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Bovine Stuff. You can get component inputs on a $200 Polariod DVD-Recorder (guts by Phillips)


Not that records any signal higher than 480i.



> If they DON'T have an adapter/addon ready for the eventuality that customers buy a S3 and then in a few months .. oops! CableCard discontinued!


CableCard isn't going anywhere. Remember, FCC mandate requires that cable companies migrate all their boxes (they they provide to customers) to CableCard as well. It won't just be Tivos using CableCard, but all cable company STBs and DVRs.

(Cable companies will be using CC2.0 and OCAP hardware, but CC2.0 cards are backwards compatible with CC1.0 devices like the Series3.)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> ...
> 
> Plus there is the article from USA Today talking about the new technology that TWC was considering that is not compatible with CableCard 1.0 and 2.0.
> 
> ...


I think you're talkign about switched video. You have a littel fud mixed in there earl..

I believe the general consensus is the newest standards for OCAP 1.1/2-way cablecard will include support for Switched Video.

As you point out the cablcard 2-way spec is not finalized in any way shape of form.

UNless the FCC is completely derelect in their duties it will be included.

Question is will 2-way cablecard require OCAP which is their downloadable security plan.

Cable Digital News July 6 article



> Slated to be issued for vendor review before the end of September, OCAP 1.1 would also add support ... switched broadcast....





ebonovic said:


> You are correct... they say they "have to support" cable-cards
> 
> But read that article very carefully... there are plenty of "warning" signs on the angles that Cable-Co's are going to take to either DELAY it, or flat out avoid it all together.
> ...
> ...


The 1996 telecommunications act mandated the FCC to create regulations to ensure that open systems are deployed by cable and that thrid party tuners were availible to the gerneal public in retail channels. THere is nothing specific as to what those systems will be and the FCC is free to decide what systems to use. Cable has basically controlled the process all along and the FCC has allowed them to do bascially whatever they want. The law says that the FCC can allow cable to have systems that aren't open if forcing them to be open would stifle technology.

It will be interesting what the FCC picks- 3rd party tuners availible to the public at retail or newer technology. Seems there is a choice to be made here- either force cablecard 2.0 so 3rd party boxes are availible sooner or allow cable to stall and come out with newer "better" downloadable systems.


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## pdawg17 (Mar 1, 2003)

harley3k said:


> Yah, but $799 versus $399 for an HR20 that is "leased", that you don't own, that requires a 2 year [email protected]#?...hmm... $799 doesn't sound bad now.
> 
> Not bad at all considering its the early-adopter price... Of course I paid nearly $1000 for my HR10, so if I could imagine an upgraded dual-HD-recording TIVO with HMO, faster guide, bigger hard drive, keeps my dual buffers, all of this for LESS than I paid for my HR10, then it seems like a good deal
> 
> -h


To be fair, most people aren't/won't be paying $399 for the HR20....


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> To be fair, most people aren't/won't be paying $399 for the HR20....


Well, not if you have a HDTV DirecTivo already. But new customers and customers without an existing HDTV DVR are paying that...


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

Rombaldi said:


> Bovine Stuff. You can get component inputs on a $200 Polariod DVD-Recorder (guts by Phillips)


Not exactly.
Even high DVD Recorders aren't taking Component Inputs. Maybe you're thinking of Composite. Component is an HD Signal.

DVD-Recorders, like, Stand Alone TIVOs must *compress* the incoming video signal. SA Tivos have Low, Medium, and High quality settings to let you control how much space the recordings take up on the drive. This requires CPU to do this, and is why only recently they've released Dual-Tuner Stand Alone Tivos, because it takes more CPU power - a more powerful box.

DirecTivos, and Recording OTA HD Signals does not require compression because the Satellite and OTA signals are already compressed with MPeg2 compression, so dual recording is easy on the CPU...just stream it to disk.

For a TIVO to record and Compess a RAW uncompressed Component/DVI/HDMI Input would take a lot of CPU power. Even MediaCenter PCs aren't doing this yet. That's why the poster speculated that it would cost $3000.

-h


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## terryjohnson16 (Feb 4, 2005)

I think the price is crazy. IT should be the most like $400, not $800. For that price they should throw in a tv too.


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

pdawg17 said:


> To be fair, most people aren't/won't be paying $399 for the HR20....


They will be paying $399 if they have more than 1 HDTV in their house and want an HD-DVR on each one.

I have 3 HDTVs and D* isn't giving me 3 of them.....well maybe if I sign a 20 year committment agreement.

I'm switching to FIOS anyway, so it'll only be $12.95 for 2 rooms, and $799 for the S3 in the theatre room.

-h


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> ...
> 
> CableCard isn't going anywhere. Remember, FCC mandate requires that cable companies migrate all their boxes (they they provide to customers) to CableCard as well. It won't just be Tivos using CableCard, but all cable company STBs and DVRs.
> 
> (Cable companies will be using CC2.0 and OCAP hardware, but CC2.0 cards are backwards compatible with CC1.0 devices like the Series3.)


Im trying to figure out what REALLY is going to happen. Supposedly come July 1, 2007 the big 5 cable providers need to start handing out cabclecard boxes to anyone that leases- right?

Since there is a snowballs chance in hell that 2-way cablecards are done by then is cable going to just start handing out boxes that CANT order PPV? Somehow I dont think that's going to happen. So what really is going to happen July 1?

the text of the law can be found at the fcc site here

says:



> Part III of title VI is amended by inserting after section 628
> (47 U.S.C. 548) the following new section:
> `SEC. 629. COMPETITIVE AVAILABILITY OF NAVIGATION DEVICES.
> `(a) COMMERCIAL CONSUMER AVAILABILITY OF EQUIPMENT USED TO ACCESS
> ...


the FCC has created the regulation that cablecard has to be deployed by the cable companies themselves on july1 in order to assure the retail availibility of cablecards. Bascially the theory is if cable companies are deploying them and buying cablecard boxes that the market will get big fast.

but 2 paragraphs later the law says:



> `(c) WAIVER- The Commission shall waive a regulation adopted
> under subsection (a) for a limited time upon an appropriate showing
> by a provider of multichannel video programming and other services
> offered over multichannel video programming systems, or an
> ...


so isn;t that saying that basically all cable has to do is say that and PPV and VOD and switched video are new and improved multichannel programming and they can get waivers to not deploy cabelcard boxes?

I assume the FCC would issue some kind of stupid ruling that for one-way devices they must be cablecard compatible but for 2-way services clearly there is no point to cablecard so they can wait until cabelcard's 2-way rules or OCAP downloadable security comes around. So everyone will ordering a box from cable will be asked "would you like an open standard box with a cablecard that cant order ppv, have an interactive guide, get VOD, or have access to switched video channels or would you like our proprietary box box that does all that for the same price?"

FCC makes me ill...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> I think you're talkign about switched video. You have a littel fud mixed in there earl..
> 
> I believe the general consensus is the newest standards for OCAP 1.1/2-way cablecard will include support for Switched Video.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the correction...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Redux said:


> When some issue comes up that has a slant that can be highlighted favorably to DirecTV and unfavorably to Tivo, it is very predictable that there will be posts shaded toward that slant.
> 
> Obviously there are people who like DirecTV, to varying degrees and for a variety of reasons, and may see Tivo as a competitor. Since there are relatively few restrictions around here on what you can say, obviously this individual has the right to shade that way. But I think we have to keep a person's obvious bias in mind when we read their stuff.
> 
> ...


If you didn't intend for that comment to be directed to me... then disregard the rest of this...

What I wrote in this thread, has nothing to do with the TiVo Series 3 box itself.
Zero to do with TiVo, Inc. (except for little jab about it all of sudden being "released", and that was more at a jab at the posters that critized DirecTV for all of sudden releasing the HR20).... anyway.

I am seriously concerned about the Cable-Card... seriously.
The product makes 100% sense from a consumer level. and is 100% pro-consumer... and significantly against all the models of the cable company as we know it. I really think the Cable Card aspect of this unit is going to be it's toughest part, as TiVo has Zero control over it.

No software update or patch can help if there is no cable-card to be had, or something isn't working. You are still at the mercy of your cable company.

If I haven't made it clear before... I'll say it again....
My primary focus, is based on the carrier... not the technology that is used to view the content from that carrier. The DVRs are second to that nature.

I haven't stayed with DirecTV for 10 years because of TiVo... I didn't come to DirecTV because of TiVo... I have spent 6+ years on this forum, and why do I still hang out here.... be cause as of today... i still have DTivos... and all the other 30+ DTivos that I have help installing or purchasing or still "support" are still there...

[/soapbox]

I mean CableCard technology IMHO is a "DUH!!!!" technology... as in..
Why the hell has it taken this long to get here.

I mean seriously... why the heck haven't we had this 10 years ago?
Cable-Ready TV's, with something like "access card technology" to enabled it... duh.....

But the Cable-Co's are trying to be more then just a Television Content provider.
They want to be your one stop shop for all communcation... 
And thus DirecTV and Dish Network are following suit, because they need to compete.

I REALLY HATE... combined services... really do..
Pick one and be the best at it...... don't do all 3 and be half Arsed at each of them.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Thank you for the correction...


no sweat-

the situation is bad enough and the fcc has let them get away with manipulating the system for 10 years now- so it wasn't a stretch by any means.

luckily though switched video wont be the thing that kills cablecard. (but dont think cable isn't looking for something that will!)


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## davsherm (Feb 23, 2003)

I am curious... How many folks in here have tv's using cable cards? I think it is a gamble by Tivo to use something they have no control over. For the folks that have cable cards, how well do they work? I do not know anyone personally that uses one, so I would like to hear others experiences with them. 

Truthfully I am on the fence right now between the S3 and the HR20. I have two HR10-250's, and three hdvr SD boxes. I am used to the Tivo interface, so the continuity of the same type of interface is a big draw. However, if I do not upgrade the Hr10-250's to the HR20 I will not re-coup my initial outlay (~$1100). I am sick and tired of HD-Lite, but how do I know if cable is going to be any better? So many questions.....


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

I've got a CableCARD, and as of late last week, Comcast got their stuff together to get me a missing channel. Since then, all OK.


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## oldskoolboarder (Jul 8, 2003)

I've waited for a long time for S3. Unfortunately, that means giving up my Tivo lifetime service because it transferred to my D* account....


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## Rombaldi (Aug 17, 2002)

harley3k said:


> Not exactly.
> Even high DVD Recorders aren't taking Component Inputs. Maybe you're thinking of Composite.


I know the difference and I DO MEAN COMPONENT INPUTS.


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## Scopeman (Oct 22, 2002)

Rombaldi said:


> I know the difference and I DO MEAN COMPONENT INPUTS.


Which doesn't change the fact that your assessment of a camcorder's ability to capture, compress and digitally store a fully res anaolg HDTV signal for $200 is wrong. No such beast exists.


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## Scopeman (Oct 22, 2002)

terryjohnson16 said:


> I think the price is crazy. IT should be the most like $400, not $800. For that price they should throw in a tv too.


This box will save me enough money in one year to pay for itself when I get to drop DTV and DirecTivo and dumb down to analog SDTV cable for extended channels and local HDTV over a combination of ATSC (antenna) and unencrypted QAM (via cable).

Monthly bill will drop by $80. This system will have paid me back 1/2 the upfront cost by the end of football season, and will have paid back the rest by the start of next summer.

I'll be at Best Buy with cash in hand on 9/17.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

_Bovine Stuff. You can get component inputs on a $200 Polariod DVD-Recorder (guts by Phillips)_

_I know the difference and I DO MEAN COMPONENT INPUTS._

Two true statements. However you omitted the important one, that unit cannot record off of component inputs. They are for passthrough and PIP only.

There are no sub $2000 devices out there than can record and compress component in real time.

-Ken


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## bgtimber75 (Jun 2, 2002)

At $500 per I was planning on getting 2. At $800 per I can't really justify even getting one.


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

I have a tv with cable card slot and the cable card reader was bad when I first got it so sony came out and replaced it and it has worked like a champ from then on. This was last December


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## davidjplatt (Aug 27, 2003)

terryjohnson16 said:


> I think the price is crazy. IT should be the most like $400, not $800. For that price they should throw in a tv too.


OK, gee, let's have TiVo give you an HDTV that costs more than the $800 for the box. Get real.

Oh, I forgot, you expect them to give you an SDTV with an HD box!

Give me a break. I'm sure you would want the box for $99 - then you would cry when they went out of business after a year because they spent a ton of money producing the hardware and not recovering the money to stay in business.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bgtimber75 said:


> At $500 per I was planning on getting 2. At $800 per I can't really justify even getting one.


Sure you can .... it'll save you $200.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

davsherm said:


> I am curious... How many folks in here have tv's using cable cards? I think it is a gamble by Tivo to use something they have no control over. For the folks that have cable cards, how well do they work? I do not know anyone personally that uses one, so I would like to hear others experiences with them.


I have a CableCARD in my Mitsu 52628. While it took Verizon a few days to get it properly init'd, its been rock solid since - about a month now. I'm looking forward to moving it to an S3, when available. I expect to have to go through the re-init routine with VZ, but, that seems to be just a matter of gettting the right tech on the phone.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Rombaldi said:


> They have effectively put ALL their eggs in the Cablecard/S3 basket, knowing full well that he Cable Companies were going to try to figure out how to kill off CableCard ASAP.


Well, all their eggs except for those in the Comcast & COX license deal baskets.

TiVo has worked, and is working, on getting partnership deals with cable companies to push TiVo software onto Cable Company DRVs. Those will (presumably) work fine with SDV and OnDemand programming.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

davsherm said:


> I am curious... How many folks in here have tv's using cable cards? I think it is a gamble by Tivo to use something they have no control over. For the folks that have cable cards, how well do they work? I do not know anyone personally that uses one, so I would like to hear others experiences with them.
> 
> Truthfully I am on the fence right now between the S3 and the HR20. I have two HR10-250's, and three hdvr SD boxes. I am used to the Tivo interface, so the continuity of the same type of interface is a big draw. However, if I do not upgrade the Hr10-250's to the HR20 I will not re-coup my initial outlay (~$1100). I am sick and tired of HD-Lite, but how do I know if cable is going to be any better? So many questions.....


I've been using CableCARD since Feb. '06 w/o any problems (other than having to argue with the CableCo the first several days to get it enabled correctly, apparently they had a pre-determined timeframe in which they'd enable the box, they would put you in the system and you were suppose to check back with them to verify it got done.)

It's not on my TV but on my Sony DHG-HDD500. I've not had any reception problems and never an issue w/ CC other than the initial installation.

I think it probably had more to do with the limited number of CC users. There were probably only a few hundred in my area when I installed mine since the report I read from only a 3 months previously indicated that TWC all together had fewer than 10K CC users. I'd guess that that number has grown significantly since then, but I don't have data to back it up.

CCourtney


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## NickIN (Dec 26, 2002)

wilsonjd said:


> The courts say they have to support CableCard:
> 
> http://news.com.com/2100-1033-6107359.html?tag=tb


I don't know what they're complaining about. I don't know about everyone else, but my CableCard isn't free, it's $3.01/month. And when the S3 comes out I'll have 3 of them. So they might not be making as much off me, but they are definately still making something for essentially providing me nothing.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

davidjplatt said:


> OK, gee, let's have TiVo give you an HDTV that costs more than the $800 for the box. Get real.
> 
> Oh, I forgot, you expect them to give you an SDTV with an HD box!
> 
> Give me a break. I'm sure you would want the box for $99 - then you would cry when they went out of business after a year because they spent a ton of money producing the hardware and not recovering the money to stay in business.


Lighten up, everyone has a price point at which there value is. I think for the vast majority of DVR users that price point is lower than $800. But I also realize there's some people willing to spend that much.

The question remains, what's the public's perception on it. How many will actually buy in at $800.

Understand that while they're trying to recover R&D cost with early units, the cost of building the units is no place near $800. And the long term money comes from the subscription cost.

If they get too few initial buyers they'll drop the price to push more out in the market. If they get a lot, they will hold out until the returns diminish.

I'd expect a price break to come somewhere in the 1Q07 if they get moderate early sales. If they get low volume sales, you'll probably see rebates / discounts / toss in free TV (LOL the last one was a joke) in beginning of Dec to make sure they get the 'Xmas - Electronics' crowd.

This happens time and time again, yet people do not see the pattern.

Personally for my pocketbook $800 is too much to have it 6months early. I'm content with my SA8300HD and DHG-HDD500 and can survive another TV season w/ them instead of an HD TiVo. If there are $300 worth of incentives before Xmas (such as 3yr subscription to TiVo) I'd more than likely buy one. With this they get the profit off of the TiVo box and don't have to depend on my being a 3yr customer.

CCourtney


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

I also have cablecard installed on a sony hdd500 hd dvr. Setup took 5 minutes and works perfectly. Comcast charges $4.95 per month per card. I suspect they are fine with cablecards as long as it allows for customer retention and additional income. 

If they were to eliminate cablecards, they would lose a competitive advantage over sat cos. I believe comcast is working to install tivo software in the current moto 6412s so they will have an alternative for those that don't want to spend $800 up front. Either way they are expanding dvr offerings which should secure more subs and take market share from those that limit choices. 

I personally like the moto 6412 and sony UI and don't plan on switching to tivo even if the tivo 3 is faster than the hr10. The moto is very fast and reliable and the sony has 500gb of storage. 

If the tivo 3 were ALOT less and included a lifetime tivo subscription I would probably substitute it for the moto just for the additional hdd space. I just can't see spending $10 per month for 2 cablecards and $12.99 per month to tivo and $4.99 to comcast for the HD programming fee as well as $800 upfront for something comcast provides for free upfront and $9.95 per month to use (which also includes the fee for HD programming). That's an extra $1015 in the first year and an extra $215 each year thereafter just to have a tivo hd dvr. That's too much to pay for wishlists.


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## Royster (May 24, 2002)

I don;t know why people are complaining about the S3 Tivo price. $800 is about what I paid a year ago for my Sony HDD500 which only has one cablecard and no SATA disk upgrade options. 

It also follows that I've been using a cable card that entire time without any real issues. Frankly the lack of PPV is not a problem in my book.

I don't know if I'll be getting an S3. The second cablecard slot isn't a real killer for me. I've been getting by with one tuner (and my S1 for SD recording and conflicts) for a year now without too much problem. The lack of a lifetime subscription option is a big negative, but I guess that's been discussed to death.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

Royster,

The majority of DVR community didn't go out and buy the Sony DHG-HDD500 for $800. The didn't fly off the shelves until Tweeter Disco'd them at $249, which is what I paid.

Then they sold on e-bay in the $400-$500 range. That is what a number of people were willing to pay for them. But this was an extremly limited number of purchasers as compared to what the S3 is expected to draw.

The e-bay price for the DHG-HDD500 was too much IMHO. The S3 price at $800 is too much for the vast majority of the market. Read what I had to say a couple of posts up http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4319535&&#post4319535

CCourtney


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

NickIN said:


> I don't know what they're complaining about. I don't know about everyone else, but my CableCard isn't free, it's $3.01/month. And when the S3 comes out I'll have 3 of them. So they might not be making as much off me, but they are definately still making something for essentially providing me nothing.


they want to control the software to limit your choices.

They would prefer you use tehir proprietary box and only have ability ot order tehir PPV ratehr tehn get a tivo box that one day might have PPV dowloads.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

CCourtney said:


> Lighten up, everyone has a price point at which there value is. I think for the vast majority of DVR users that price point is lower than $800. But I also realize there's some people willing to spend that much.
> 
> The question remains, what's the public's perception on it. How many will actually buy in at $800.
> 
> ...


I agree entirely except I'm not sure what your definit ion of "cost of building the units is no place near $800". Directv said earleir this year that the HR10-250 cost them $600. The Wholesale cost of the S3 to best buy is reported to be $500 and that may or may not be subsidized (or have a profit for tivo).

So if you are saying 500 to 600 dollars is a cost no where near 800 I'd agree. But if people think this think costs tivo the same $100 or 200 a S2 costs tivo to produce then they are a little off.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

fastep said:


> I also have cablecard installed on a sony hdd500 hd dvr. Setup took 5 minutes and works perfectly. Comcast charges $4.95 per month per card. I suspect they are fine with cablecards as long as it allows for customer retention and additional income.
> 
> If they were to eliminate cablecards, they would lose a competitive advantage over sat cos. I believe comcast is working to install tivo software in the current moto 6412s so they will have an alternative for those that don't want to spend $800 up front. Either way they are expanding dvr offerings which should secure more subs and take market share from those that limit choices.
> 
> ...


I am not postive but i think comcast is charging $4.95 for the "additional outlet" and teh cablecard is actually free. Becasue of that you can argue that the second card in the serioes should be free as it's connected to teh same wire as the first...


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I'll wait til all of you pay $800, and then I'll buy mine for $399, just like the D* box.


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## NickIN (Dec 26, 2002)

$800 might be a little hight. And sure I know I could wait a couple months and get it for cheaper. But the way I see it, I'm willing to pay a big premium to kick the SA8300HD to the curb ASAP!


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

NickIN said:


> $800 might be a little hight. And sure I know I could wait a couple months and get it for cheaper. But the way I see it, I'm willing to pay a big premium to kick the SA8300HD to the curb ASAP!


this is one of the most accurate statements ever. I had the SA8300HD for 2 months and I was having to reboot it twice a day to get it to record anythig. I will be ordering as as I can if I could give tivo the money now and they just sent me the box in two weeks (yes I am assuming that the dates we are talking about are accurate) I would be happy as a clam


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> I agree entirely except I'm not sure what your definit ion of "cost of building the units is no place near $800". Directv said earleir this year that the HR10-250 cost them $600. The Wholesale cost of the S3 to best buy is reported to be $500 and that may or may not be subsidized (or have a profit for tivo).
> 
> So if you are saying 500 to 600 dollars is a cost no where near 800 I'd agree. But if people think this think costs tivo the same $100 or 200 a S2 costs tivo to produce then they are a little off.


I expect the cost to build (BOM and manufacturing costs) to be in the $300-$400. This assumers purchasing components in quanity, in which case you can get very low pricing. One thing people don't keep in mind is the pricing of components in bulk is much less than what we pay as consumers. Also the HR10-250 'Cost Them $600' was not the cost to build.

I hope nobody assumes the manufacturing cost of an S3 is the same as an S2 (or even close - about double.)

That said, TiVo's structure is not to profit high off of HW Sales, but to profit where they have Intellectual Property which is the TiVo SW through subscription.

We'll see in the end. I'm not really convinced that the numbers 'Seen by one BB employee, and confirmed by one other BB employee' is in fact real anyway. 

CCourtney


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

all BB employees tell the truth and are well informed about all topics


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## jb007 (Mar 17, 2001)

newsposter said:


> all BB employees tell the truth and are well informed about all topics


Yeah!


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

NickIN said:


> $800 might be a little hight. And sure I know I could wait a couple months and get it for cheaper. But the way I see it, I'm willing to pay a big premium to kick the SA8300HD to the curb ASAP!


Amen, brother!!!!!!!

I keep calling my local TWC to ask their "resident equipment and systems guru" about switched digital and he won't call me back. Not sure what to do.


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## RippleStix (Aug 30, 2006)

I can't understand why someone with a HDTV would complain about spending $799 for a tuner that does what it claims. A good quality Plasma or LCD cost anywhere from $3,500 to $6,000, throw in the cost of mounts (around 300), cables (around 250) and power conditioner/surge supressor (100). Why wouldn't you drop a messly 800 on a dual tuner stand alone tivo. I dropped my directivo when I upgraded my tv to HD, and have the crappy comcrap motorola dual tuner HDDVR and I am waiting to drop that box and buy two of the new HDTivo as soon as they are released.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

newsposter said:


> all BB employees tell the truth and are well informed about all topics


See post...he may not even BE a BB employee.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

CCourtney said:


> I expect the cost to build (BOM and manufacturing costs) to be in the $300-$400. This assumers purchasing components in quanity, in which case you can get very low pricing. One thing people don't keep in mind is the pricing of components in bulk is much less than what we pay as consumers. Also the HR10-250 'Cost Them $600' was not the cost to build.
> 
> I hope nobody assumes the manufacturing cost of an S3 is the same as an S2 (or even close - about double.)
> 
> ...


I realize it costs alot less for them to build 1000 boxes then for me to make one, But I assume Directv was buying in much bigger bulk then the S3 will start out at and they were paying $600. I realize the S3 will be newer and therefore might have more integrated components then the HR10, but it also has more stuff in it- so I'd think it would roughly be a wash. Or am I mistaken? Is it realistic that the series 3 could be 33% cheaper to produce then the HR10? (no hardware engineer here-LOL!- so i'm wondering what you more in the know folks think)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

RippleStix said:


> I can't understand why someone with a HDTV would complain about spending $799 for a tuner that does what it claims. A good quality Plasma or LCD cost anywhere from $3,500 to $6,000, throw in the cost of mounts (around 300), cables (around 250) and power conditioner/surge supressor (100). Why wouldn't you drop a messly 800 on a dual tuner stand alone tivo. I dropped my directivo when I upgraded my tv to HD, and have the crappy comcrap motorola dual tuner HDDVR and I am waiting to drop that box and buy two of the new HDTivo as soon as they are released.


I think part of the issue here is the price of HDTV's is dropping fast. Many of us might have spent 3 grand but Home Depot by me has 42 inch plasmas for $1500 or somethign like that. So buying a dvr for half that sounds a bit ugly...


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

RippleStix said:


> I can't understand why someone with a HDTV would complain about spending $799 for a tuner that does what it claims. A good quality Plasma or LCD cost anywhere from $3,500 to $6,000, throw in the cost of mounts (around 300), cables (around 250) and power conditioner/surge supressor (100). Why wouldn't you drop a messly 800 on a dual tuner stand alone tivo. I dropped my directivo when I upgraded my tv to HD, and have the crappy comcrap motorola dual tuner HDDVR and I am waiting to drop that box and buy two of the new HDTivo as soon as they are released.


Just because YOU spend $3500 to $6000 for a tv, doesn't mean everyone does. There are A LOT of HDTV's on the market for under a $1000.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

We'd all love for these things to be cheaper, but that doesn't look like what we have for now. I know that my TWC contract guy told me the SA8300 boxes cost them >$1000. Don't know how accurate or believable that is, but I don't think these things are cheap. And TiVo doesn't have the disposable loss-leader cash that a lot of these cable companies do. 

If it works as advertised and I don't have SDV issues, I'll buy 3 of them tomorrow.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> I realize it costs alot less for them to build 1000 boxes then for me to make one, But I assume Directv was buying in much bigger bulk then the S3 will start out at and they were paying $600. I realize the S3 will be newer and therefore might have more integrated components then the HR10, but it also has more stuff in it- so I'd think it would roughly be a wash. Or am I mistaken? Is it realistic that the series 3 could be 33% cheaper to produce then the HR10? (no hardware engineer here-LOL!- so i'm wondering what you more in the know folks think)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hughes Network Systems - Manufacture of the HR10-250 is not DirectTV, all though they are closely related with DirectTV owning a majority stake (I'm sure somebody with more details on this can correct me if I'm wrong.)

Hughes Network makes money off of selling this equipment to DirectTV who then sells it to the consumer.

This is the area that Hughes makes money on these boxes. It's not like when HNS was part of DirectTV.

So, DirectTV stating that they were paying $600/box. Is stating that they were paying Hughes $600/box. Which is not the equivalent of saying that the cost to build the box is $600.

TiVo manufactures the boxes it sells, there in lies a key difference.

Just what was the markup?

CCourtney


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

jacksonian said:


> We'd all love for these things to be cheaper, but that doesn't look like what we have for now. I know that my TWC contract guy told me the SA8300 boxes cost them >$1000. Don't know how accurate or believable that is, but I don't think these things are cheap. And TiVo doesn't have the disposable loss-leader cash that a lot of these cable companies do.
> 
> If it works as advertised and I don't have SDV issues, I'll buy 3 of them tomorrow.


At $1000 and a $12/mo fee ($7 STB Rental + $5 DVR Programming - which is the typical TWC fees on these units) it would take 7yrs to recoup their costs. These box's will be obsolete much earlier than that. > $1000 is a joke.

Reliable sources told me that TWC was paying ~$600/unit on the SA8300HD back 1.5yrs ago, that is a little over 4yrs to recoup the cost on the box. I'm sure that has dropped a fair amount since then. Figure a 50% markup, and the cost to build an SA8300HD would have been $400 1.5yrs ago. I'd suspect that the cost to build to be < $300 today.

CCourtney

PS: Here's an interesting thread that should shed light on the cost of purchasing an SA8300HD back in Jan 2005 (remember that this is in Canuck Bucks too.)
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=20093


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

RippleStix said:


> cables (around 250)


Good grief. Do you just burn money, or what? Please tell me you're not buying Monster cables or some other ripoff crap.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

CCourtney said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hughes Network Systems - Manufacture of the HR10-250 is not DirectTV, all though they are closely related with DirectTV owning a majority stake (I'm sure somebody with more details on this can correct me if I'm wrong.)
> 
> Hughes Network makes money off of selling this equipment to DirectTV who then sells it to the consumer.
> 
> ...


ahhhhh- that makes sense.

I think Directv sold off all their box manufacturing actually.

So someone else is getting some profit in there too.

Big difference!- sorry for being slow


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

Scopeman said:


> This box will save me enough money in one year to pay for itself when I get to drop DTV and DirecTivo and dumb down to analog SDTV cable for extended channels and local HDTV over a combination of ATSC (antenna) and unencrypted QAM (via cable).
> 
> Monthly bill will drop by $80. This system will have paid me back 1/2 the upfront cost by the end of football season, and will have paid back the rest by the start of next summer.
> 
> I'll be at Best Buy with cash in hand on 9/17.


Analog cable....eeewwww. I don't know what it looks like in your town, but analog here looks horrid, even worse than Directv!


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

Arcady said:


> I'll wait til all of you pay $800, and then I'll buy mine for $399, just like the D* box.


I'll wait till it's free AR! Should take 2 years tops.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Can the S3 be networked to another S3?


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## StEvEY5036 (Jul 9, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> See post...he may not even BE a BB employee.


He is an employee. I went into the system and confirmed it myself.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

I did finally get someone at my local TWC to call me back about switched digital. He said that TWC DID plan to roll out switched digital just about everywhere and said that just about all of the channels would end up on a switched system (I guess that makes sense from their perspective?)

But he said that they had just received an email that they were aware that some customers might be getting the TiVo S3 and that the "guys at the head end wanted to know about them and keep track of them". He said he didn't know what that meant, whether there was anything that they could do for us or not, and he would try to get more info for me next week when they had a meeting.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Can the S3 be networked to another S3?


Ultimately, yes, but streaming of programs from one Series3 to another (MRV) may not be supported at initial release.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Ultimately, yes, but streaming of programs from one Series3 to another (MRV) may not be supported at initial release.


I might as well keep my D* HD box then. And they cost $0 now.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

jacksonian said:


> I did finally get someone at my local TWC to call me back about switched digital. He said that TWC DID plan to roll out switched digital just about everywhere and said that just about all of the channels would end up on a switched system (I guess that makes sense from their perspective?)
> 
> But he said that they had just received an email that they were aware that some customers might be getting the TiVo S3 and that the "guys at the head end wanted to know about them and keep track of them". He said he didn't know what that meant, whether there was anything that they could do for us or not, and he would try to get more info for me next week when they had a meeting.


CSRs seldomly know what they're talking about unfortunately. Many area's of TWC are rolling out Digital Simulcasting which is not the same as Switched Digital. We'll have to wait and see what actually get's implemented. In my TWC area they're rolling out Digital Simulcasting currently. That said, I'm still w/o a long term answer as Comcast is taking over TWC coverage for my area  Good   Bad   Indifferent  I don't know how I feel about the switch. But SDV would upset my S3 intentions.

CCourtney


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

CCourtney said:


> I'm still w/o a long term answer as Comcast is taking over TWC coverage for my area  Good   Bad   Indifferent  I don't know how I feel about the switch. But SDV would upset my S3 intentions.
> 
> CCourtney


Sing it, sister! I feel the same way!! I don't know how to feel about this and I don't know for sure what the switch will mean for us. My plan is to get an S3 ASAP and hope for the best...but I don't know if that's the right move or not.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

CCourtney said:


> CSRs seldomly know what they're talking about unfortunately. Many area's of TWC are rolling out Digital Simulcasting which is not the same as Switched Digital. We'll have to wait and see what actually get's implemented. In my TWC area they're rolling out Digital Simulcasting currently. ...But SDV would upset my S3 intentions.
> 
> CCourtney


I agree, but supposedly this guy was the systems/equipment guy for the local office, not the CSR. I don't know the difference with Digital Simulcasting vs. Switched Digital. I guess I need to read up on that.

I'm so sick of the SA8300 w/SARA that I'll probably be a day 1 adopter of S3 and just hope for the best and complain to TWC if I must. I just can't tolerate the SA8300. I end up not using that TV much because of it.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

What version of SARA are you on? Version 1.88.22.xx is pretty solid and adds some needed features (play from the beginning, no jumping when recording current program hits the end of the record time, 4th FF 128x rate, better First Run handling, etc.)

While it isn't a TiVo, It's been fairly reliable for me over the past 2yrs. 

CCourtney


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

I'm not sure of my version, but I don't have those features yet, and even if it did, it would still suck. The user interface is so agonizingly painful, I can barely talk about it without getting irritated. It's marginally better than a VCR.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

CC,

Comcast and TWC didn't even introduce DVRs in some markets until the SA8300HD was released, and if you are in one of those markets, you are pretty much guaranteed to have the new software.

However, as I mentioned before, many Comcast or TWC markets with large SA8000HD deployments haven't upgraded --- I don't know about TWC, but I'm told this represents the majority of Comcast's SA8300HD customers. If your market just got HD DVRs in the last 2-3 years, then chances are you've been sent the latest software. However, if you're living in a Comcast market that has offered SA HD DVRs for 3-5 years (which is a LOT of markets), then chances are you haven't received the upgrade and won't this year.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

I understand that, we did not get DVRs in our market until Oct 2004. We were the last major TWC market to get DVRs. We got upgraded to the SARA 1.88.22.xx SW about 2months ago, while it was initially released long before that.

Software is upgraded over cable while it's sitting in your house, not shipped with the latest SW as it would seem that you're implying.

I don't see how you can tie market deployments to be inversely proportional with software upgrades unless you're implying that the upgrades must be done manually instead of broadcast over the cable (which is how it is done.)

CCourtney


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

I have the 8300 with the dreadful 1.87 version. Calling my cableco (Atlantic Broadband) is useless since nobody knows what the hell I'm talking about. Just got a brand new receiver last week hoping the software would be new but , as Courtney says, it can only be upgraded over the cable. I hate the user interface of the 8300 and I have already lost many recordings. S3, please come soon!


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Software is upgraded over cable while it's sitting in your house, not shipped with the latest SW as it would seem that you're implying.
> 
> I don't see how you can tie market deployments to be inversely proportional with software upgrades unless you're implying that the upgrades must be done manually instead of broadcast over the cable (which is how it is done.)


The issue is SA8000HD compatibility. Markets that rolled out DVRs five years ago have hundreds to thousands of SA8000HD boxes in customers hands.

Apparently, Comcast can't send upgrades to the SA8300HD without upgrading SA8000HD at the same time, or upgrading their system to support 1.88 on the SA8300HD doesn't play well with 1.87 on the SA8000HD. Either way, 1.88 has some serious issues with the SA8000HD. Comcast Mid-Atlantic doesn't seem to feel that swapping out SA8000HDs en mass for SA8300HDs is a viable option.


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## inaka (Nov 26, 2001)

Wow, $800, eh? I've already switched to Comcast since January and have been using the Motorola 6412 Phase III DVR. The more I use it, the more I just can't justify the $800 price tag for the S3 plus an added TiVo monthly fee. The 6412 is $9.99/mo, and that *includes* the HD programming package. Sorry TiVo, I can't pull the trigger on the S3 at that price, and I don't expect them to be huge sellers until they hit the $399 range.


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