# Would you buy a TiVo today?



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

I haven't called support yet (I dread that), but I'm pretty sure I have a fatal TiVo problem.

For now I can move the sick Premiere's subscriptions to another Premiere and use the sick one like a Mini.

But with all the uncertainty about Tivo's future and the high cost with All-In, should I buy another TiVo? Over $1000 for a Bolt+ All-in. Roughly half that for a used Romeo Pro or Bolt All-In.

Would you buy a TiVo today?

I have turned on a couple of old HD's in case the Lifetime sale comes back...


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

tlc said:


> I haven't called support yet (I dread that), but I'm pretty sure I have a fatal TiVo problem.
> 
> For now I can move the sick Premiere's subscriptions to another Premiere and use the sick one like a Mini.
> 
> ...


In a heartbeat!
I have a Roamio basic that's used for OTA, and I also use the internet apps. I basically got it completely free, so it works well for me. I used to have Dish Network and a few years back if your referred enough people, you got a FREE Sony Ps/4. I was able to do that, then sold the Ps/4 for $400, and bought the lifetime Tivo. Win/win!


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## tannebil (Mar 9, 2006)

No single answer to that question. It all depends on your situation. It’s still the best way to capture and consume traditional TV content but if you don’t watch much of that kind of content or the extra cost of TiVo is a burden, it doesn’t make sense.

Personally, I just upgraded from a Premiere to a Roamio Pro and couldn’t be happier with it. I gave my Premiere to my niece (family of 5) and they almost never use it as they are happy with streaming options. Neither of us are right or wrong.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tlc said:


> I haven't called support yet (I dread that), but I'm pretty sure I have a fatal TiVo problem.
> 
> For now I can move the sick Premiere's subscriptions to another Premiere and use the sick one like a Mini.
> 
> ...


If a Roamio OTA with lifetime for under $400, absolutely. Possibly also if buying the same for cable use and then modding the box with a cablecard adapter (either from another unit or as a new addition)--easy enough to try and do (there is a long and helpful thread here on this topic).

Otherwise: think on waiting until a possible sale, such as this November--last mid-November, TiVo had a so-called "White sale" with some nice deals.

P.S. Good for you with the HD boxes--one never knows (and I think it likely, personally). Make sure they're connecting to the TiVo mothership periodically, as you probably are.


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## tim_m (Mar 8, 2017)

I only bought mine 6 months ago so absolutely.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

I had a Premiere that finally gave up the ghost, bought a Bolt when they were on sale at Amazon. So yes I would today, in five years who knows, maybe we'll have decent cloud dvrs at the point MAYBE..


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

I bought a Bolt+ 5 months ago. Of course it was the offer to transfer a lifetime subscription from a TiVoHD to a Bolt that prompted me to do it, but I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

I my Bolt+ died today and I had no further recourse than to buy a replacement I wouldn't hesitate to do it. (I love my TiVo.) The only thing I would think twice about it whether to get All-In pricing or go yearly.


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## tim_m (Mar 8, 2017)

Question about the all in. I've heard after you own it a year you can get a discount on all in. Is this true even if you have a second hand used tivo?


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## Nickipedia (Jul 18, 2015)

waynomo said:


> I my Bolt+ died today and I had no further recourse than to buy a replacement I wouldn't hesitate to do it. (I love my TiVo.) The only thing I would think twice about it whether to get All-In pricing or go yearly.


Well said


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

tim_m said:


> Question about the all in. I've heard after you own it a year you can get a discount on all in. Is this true even if you have a second hand used tivo?


More like 2-3 years.

Scott


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Well I have put my 2 cents in threads like this before and my answer has always been if my TiVos all died today, I would be ordering a new one before the day was over. I am watching allot less TV now than I used to, so maybe I might wait a day or 2 before ordering a new TiVo. Like others have said not sure I would pay for all in at it's current every day price for new Bolts. Just for info I have fully functional Series 3, TiVo HD, Premiere, base Roamio, & Bolt TiVos all with lifetime all only used for OTA. I mostly only use the Bolt, both to record & view shows, do some recording with the Roamio, and have stuff stored on the others.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

If my Roamio Plus died today, I'd be looking to buy a used Roamio Plus or Pro on ebay this afternoon. I'm not about to give up SkipMode or QuickMode so long as they are available options.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

I would not buy another All In Tivo. Resale is piddly these days and tech changes too fast. You're unlikely to make up your "investment" through resale, and by the break even point you might already be ready for something else. If anything, I'd do month to month on a Bolt and keep my eyes open for new things.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Seems to me that, in order to answer the question of whether to buy a new TiVo, you have to figure out the scope of your other options and what those cost and then compare that against TiVo. And of course, it's not just about cost, it's also about how much you like something and whether the value justifies the price. 

Are you on cable and planning to stay with that provider? What do you think of their own DVR? (The X1 DVR from Comcast and Cox is well regarded; Charter DVRs, not so much.) Are you missing out on on-demand video from your cable company if you use TiVo? Does that matter to you? Are you open to switching to satellite or to one of the new streaming cable services like PS Vue, DirecTV Now, or Hulu with Live TV? Do you just use your TiVo for OTA, or would you be interested in doing that? There are an increasing number of options now and deciding among them brings up questions not just about TiVo but about how you want to watch TV in general and how much you'll pay.

Among folks who post on this site, I'm sure the great majority would buy another TiVo because they're likely long-time TiVo users who like the TiVo UI and feature set (which has improved in the past couple years with SkipMode, better apps on the Bolt, etc). It's also true that the number of cable subscribers using retail TiVos in the US continues to dwindle, so some decide against staying with TiVo when in a situation like yours.

If you're worried about buying new TiVo equipment and lifetime service because you think the company's future is uncertain, I wouldn't worry about that. They'll be around long enough to get your money's worth. There are a few caveats I'd make though: if your cable provider is Comcast, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them switch their TV service to all-IP in the next few years, making it incompatible with your TiVo. (It's certainly also possible that won't happen until later, e.g. 2023, but you should be aware of the risk.) Also, if you own or will soon own a 4K/UHD TV and would like to receive 4K programming from your cable company, there's a good chance (especially if you're on Comcast or Verizon FiOS) that they won't provide 4K in a format that is accessible by a TiVo.


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## davefred99 (Oct 31, 2004)

I have been a TIVO user for many years now. First as a Direct TV user then as a Roamio Plus user on Verizon Fios. That Fios box now sits in the closet because I cut the Cord and needed an OTA box so I bought a refurbished Roamio Basic. I love TIVO for its DVR but its OTT Apps are mostly not as good as whats available on FireTv or ROKU and other then OTA that is what I a watch mostly now.
If TIVO had actually followed through and made the BOLT a true cord cutter friendly one box for all solution I would say absolutely I would purchase a replacement if I needed one. That said I do not think TIVO is in my long term future anymore. I will continue to use what I have till it no longer works but have to re evaluate my needs and look at other solutions when the time comes to replace it.


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## Imageek2 (Aug 12, 2002)

For me the answer would be no. Too many questions about the direction of TiVo going forward, and I have been a TiVo customer for most of the last 15 years. There is a sea-change taking place right now in the way people consume entertainment, and I'm afraid TiVo is going to be swept away into history because of it. I am evaluating what the alternatives are now.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

b_scott said:


> I would not buy another All In Tivo. Resale is piddly these days and tech changes too fast. You're unlikely to make up your "investment" through resale, and by the break even point you might already be ready for something else. If anything, I'd do month to month on a Bolt and keep my eyes open for new things.


Except: a current Roamio OTA with lifetime, where the subscription fee is "paid off" in a couple of years or less (assuming that half the price of the box is for the box, the other half for the subscription)?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Imageek2 said:


> ... I am evaluating what the alternatives are now.


And in my opinion, the alternatives suck.


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## spaldingclan (Aug 22, 2012)

Like others, I wouldn't buy another Bolt, I'd go with a Roamio with all in and use the new Apple TV 4k for streaming (or my tvs nuilt in android tv apps), thsi box is terrible for apps


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

tlc said:


> But with all the uncertainty about Tivo's future


These concerns have been around since shortly after I joined TCF almost a decade ago.



tlc said:


> and the high cost with All-In, should I buy another TiVo? Over $1000 for a Bolt+ All-in.


The Bolt is cheap. You're complaining about the high cost of All-in. Do monthly prepaid annually instead, which also addresses your concerns about Tivo's viability. I did that on my $100 Roamio Basic until the kind folks on TCF pointed out a $99 lifetime upgrade. To Tivo's credit, they did not bill the $99 until my prepaid annual was up.



tlc said:


> Would you buy a TiVo today?


Yes. But I have a small windfall from 2014 that I haven't spend yet. I'm moving and will probably buy a 4K TV with HDR, then I need to decide about getting a Bolt. And Black Friday is just around the corner.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

davefred99 said:


> I have been a TIVO user for many years now. First as a Direct TV user then as a Roamio Plus user on Verizon Fios. That Fios box now sits in the closet because I cut the Cord and needed an OTA box so I bought a refurbished Roamio Basic. I love TIVO for its DVR but its OTT Apps are mostly not as good as whats available on FireTv or ROKU and other then OTA that is what I a watch mostly now.
> If TIVO had actually followed through and made the BOLT a true cord cutter friendly one box for all solution I would say absolutely I would purchase a replacement if I needed one. That said I do not think TIVO is in my long term future anymore. I will continue to use what I have till it no longer works but have to re evaluate my needs and look at other solutions when the time comes to replace it.


This is pretty much exactly my situation. I have a Roamio OTA that I bought a couple years ago and still use it some -- and it does work great -- but I mainly rely on streaming apps for my "appointment TV" viewing. I'd love to have a slick, well-integrated all-in-one solution for viewing OTA TV plus all the streaming services I could ever want but right now I can't see sinking the money into such a set-up (which would involve maybe a new Nvidia Shield TV or Apple TV 4K plus an HD HomeRun network OTA tuner) when ATSC 3.0 is on the horizon. No point in sinking money in new ATSC 1.0 tuners at this point, I figure. Meanwhile, streaming boxes, as well as the options for accessing live and DVR'd OTA TV through them (e.g. Plex) keep getting better.

So I'm content with what I have now, which includes a Roamio OTA, while I wait on the sidelines and see how things unfold over the next year or so. I'm open to whatever but if I had to bet, I'll say that my current TiVo is the only one I'll ever own.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Artie Fufkin said:


> This is definitely not a consumer electronic device that I bought in hopes of making back my investment in resale. I bought it to record my OTA shows and will keep it until it dies which I hope isn't for many more year down the road.


OTA is a different beast. I'm talking about all in on the regular bolts, not OTA Roamio



Mikeguy said:


> Except: a current Roamio OTA with lifetime, where the subscription fee is "paid off" in a couple of years or less (assuming that half the price of the box is for the box, the other half for the subscription)?


Exactly, this is the exception.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Yes. But I have a small windfall from 2014 that I haven't spend yet. I'm moving and will probably buy a 4K TV with HDR, then I need to decide about getting a Bolt. And Black Friday is just around the corner.


Keep in mind that the Bolt only offers 4K streaming via the Netflix and YouTube (and Plex?) apps. It also does not support HDR. Whether any of that will change, I don't know, but that's been the situation since it was first introduced two years ago.

It's also questionable whether the Bolt will support live linear 4K channels or on-demand 4K content from your cable provider once they begin offering it. (Live 4K channels would have to be carried via QAM and it looks like Comcast and Verizon plan to carry them via IP. To get on-demand 4K would likely require your cable co making or updating an app for TiVo.) I tend to think that 2018 may be the year when cable starts embracing 4K and HDR in a significant way, given beta testing ongoing now at Verizon FiOS, plus AT&T's announcement that their next-gen video platform will roll out 4K support next year, plus the fact that Comcast has begun issuing 4K HDR-capable STBs this year. The cable industry is way behind Netflix and Amazon Prime on this front.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

tannebil said:


> No single answer to that question. It all depends on your situation. It's still the best way to capture and consume traditional TV content but if you don't watch much of that kind of content or the extra cost of TiVo is a burden, it doesn't make sense.
> 
> *Personally, I just upgraded from a Premiere to a Roamio Pro and couldn't be happier with it.* I gave my Premiere to my niece (family of 5) and they almost never use it as they are happy with streaming options. Neither of us are right or wrong.


I did the same upgrade in June of this year, replacing my PLS-ed Premiere Elite/XL4 with a refurbished All-in Roamio Pro and a Slide Remote for only $458.48 including tax and shipping. Once I sell my Premiere, the total cost of the upgrade will be just over $100--well worth it to me given the expansion from four tuners to six, increased storage from 2TB to 3TB, and the addition of Skipmode and built-in Stream on the newer model.

I would be loath to pay upwards of $1K for any iteration of the Bolt, but I could not be more pleased with the deal I got on the Roamio Pro.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> Keep in mind that the Bolt only offers 4K streaming via the Netflix and YouTube (and Plex?) apps. It also does not support HDR.


Which is why I'm buying a 4K TV with HDR and will try out the built in apps on the TV. My new place will have much better internet, which should help.

Tivo is ahead of the game on 4K IMO, but the cable companies are behind the game.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Which is why I'm buying a 4K TV with HDR and will try out the built in apps on the TV. My new place will have much better internet, which should help.
> 
> Tivo is ahead of the game on 4K IMO, but the cable companies are behind the game.


While I suggest buying a TV based on picture quality and other features (rather than its app platform), hopefully whichever one you buy will have all the apps you need so you don't have to rely on another box. There's really no question that whatever 4K HDR TV you buy will have a better 4K app platform that the Bolt, though -- is there a single 4K HDR TV out there that doesn't have 4K apps for at least Netflix and YouTube (which is all the Bolt has)? Most 4K TVs have a 4K app for Amazon too. Many of them have a 4K VUDU app. The only noteworthy app that TiVo offers that's (strangely) not on my LG 4K TV is HBO Go (which, of course, isn't 4K since HBO hasn't gotten into 4K yet. Maybe next year...).


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> While I suggest buying a TV based on picture quality and other features (rather than its app platform), hopefully whichever one you buy will have all the apps you need so you don't have to rely on another box. There's really no question that whatever 4K HDR TV you buy will have a better 4K app platform that the Bolt, though -- is there a single 4K HDR TV out there that doesn't have 4K apps for at least Netflix and YouTube (which is all the Bolt has)? Most 4K TVs have a 4K app for Amazon too. Many of them have a 4K VUDU app. The only noteworthy app that TiVo offers that's (strangely) not on my LG 4K TV is HBO Go (which, of course, isn't 4K since HBO hasn't gotten into 4K yet. Maybe next year...).


buying TV's based on their apps is a bad idea. Any external box will be largely more supported and will have the storage space you need. TV apps are notoriously the first ones to drop support. I love my Pioneer Kuro and I'm glad it never jumped into the app game - think how outdated those would be from 2008-2017?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

b_scott said:


> buying TV's based on their apps is a bad idea. Any external box will be largely more supported and will have the storage space you need. TV apps are notoriously the first ones to drop support. I love my Pioneer Kuro and I'm glad it never jumped into the app game - think how outdated those would be from 2008-2017?


Which is why I suggested buying a TV based on other factors, not the app platform. That said, it's definitely a bonus if you find a TV you like which also has all the apps you need. Keeps you from needing to switch inputs and spend money on another box, at least for awhile until the apps become outdated. I love my LG OLED and the app platform generally is good, but I do wish it had apps for Showtime, HBO as well as the new Hulu app that supports live TV.

One possible exception to the trend of outdated smart TVs may be those that come with the Roku platform. There's a Roku-powered 55" TCL with 4K and Dolby Vision HDR that looks very good for a budget TV. Since it's Roku-powered, it'll have pretty much any app you'd ever want and I suspect the TV is powerful enough that it will be able to access updated versions of those apps for some time.


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

i don't know. maybe. i started w/2 series 2 units, then went to series 4 units premieres, & now am running two series 6 units - bolts. I really like them but service & software are problems that concern me, mostly since rovi. at this point i just hope the bolts outlive me so i don't have to make the decision.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

My sister is thinking about a new TV and I thought a TLC Roku would be a pretty good fit for her. They are OTA only, don't watch allot of TV, and currently have a pretty old Roku that I bought them years ago. 

Unfortunately I will likely be sticking with my Panasonic Plasma for as long as it lasts as I live where the top internet speed available is about 11ish Mbps so the only way I have to get access to UHD content is to buy UHD Blu-rays and really don't see myself buying allot of those as I see most movies in a movie theater.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> My sister is thinking about a new TV and I thought a TLC Roku would be a pretty good fit for her. They are OTA only, don't watch allot of TV, and currently have a pretty old Roku that I bought them years ago.


Yeah, I agree. A nice feature of the Roku TVs is that you can pause live OTA TV for up to 90 minutes if you connect a USB flash drive. And given that TCL has recently struck a deal with TiVo to add new features for their Roku TVs, it wouldn't surprise me if that capability expanded to full-on DVR. At the least, I suppose, those TVs will get better at universal search and queuing shows among popular streaming apps.



atmuscarella said:


> Unfortunately I will likely be sticking with my Panasonic Plasma for as long as it lasts as I live where the top internet speed available is about 11ish Mbps so the only way I have to get access to UHD content is to buy UHD Blu-rays and really don't see myself buying allot of those as I see most movies in a movie theater.


If I was in your situation, I wouldn't bother with a UHD TV either, at least until ATSC 3.0 broadcasts become available there (or your current plasma dies). I really wonder if UHD Blu-ray will ever get much penetration or if it's doomed to being a modern-day LaserDisc.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Currently, I don't have a Tivo. I'm using Spectrum-Warner's DVR, and though it's clearly inferior to Tivo, it's good enough, and a lot of my TV is Netflix and Hulu these days.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Artie Fufkin said:


> I think UHD on disc may be doomed mainly because we are hedging towards streaming for most of our media needs these days. I think the days of collecting discs only to watch them once or twice, then having to find a shelf for them are long gone for most folks.


I agree. UHD Blu-ray will remain a thing for videophile collectors and technology enthusiasts. Whether that will be a big enough base for movie studios to keep putting out those discs five years from now, I really don't know. I'd love to connect a UHD Blu-ray player to my OLED and watch a 4K Dolby Vision flick just to see how great it looks but I'm not curious enough to shell out the money to do it. (I have comparable quality high bitrate demo clips that I've downloaded to USB and watched on my TV, so I know how good it can look.) I've never been a movie collector.

But, yes, as internet speeds (and compression capabilities) only continue to improve, all mainstream consumers will move to streaming. It seems inevitable.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Even with the not so great data a TiVo is still a million times better then what charter offers so I'd buy another in a heartbeat


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## Karyn (Jul 19, 2017)

Dan203 said:


> Even with the not so great data a TiVo is still a million times better then what charter offers so I'd buy another in a heartbeat


Totally agree! Now that I've really gotten into the meat of the TiVo I'm quite angry with myself for paying for TV ALL of those years.

*Just take a rough $100 x 12 months = $1,200 x 21 years = $23,000.00 + 20% (*what I had to earn to spend that twenty three thousand dollars* = $27,600.00 I allocated to staring at a TV set through cable & satellite.*


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

allan said:


> Currently, I don't have a Tivo. I'm using Spectrum-Warner's DVR, and though it's clearly inferior to Tivo, it's good enough, and a lot of my TV is Netflix and Hulu these days.


Never underestimate the power of "good enough, plus easier and/or cheaper" to conquer the market. That's how VHS beat Betamax in the 80s and Windows PCs beat the Apple Macintosh back in the 90s. And it's how cable/satellite DVRs beat TiVo in the 00s.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

Until either compression gets better or bit rates go higher. UHD discs will live strong. I am not a movie buff but there is a HUGE difference between a HDR disc and the same streaming


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Do monthly prepaid annually instead, which also addresses your concerns about Tivo's viability. I did that on my $100 Roamio Basic until the kind folks on TCF pointed out a $99 lifetime upgrade. To Tivo's credit, they did not bill the $99 until my prepaid annual was up.


But what if that lifetime upgrade hadn't come around? And what are the odds of it happening again?


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## dmurphy (Jan 17, 2002)

Absolutely. In a heartbeat. The "concerns" about TiVo have been here since TiVo launched.... and frankly, seeing Hydra move to beta testing doesn't look to me like a company ready to roll over and play dead. That's not the kind of project you embark on if all you're planning to do is suck the last pennies out of a dying install base.

So yes -- without hesitation, yes absolutely 100% yes.

I was at my mother in law's last week and used her FiOS set top box... which I think is about as good as MSO boxes get. And it was AWFUL. I hated the thing. Even my wife turned to me and said "I miss our TiVo!" That right there tells the story.

We started on DirecTiVo units back in 2000 when they first shipped. I owned a bunch of GXCEBOT's and SD-DVR40's and HDVR2's and R10's and HR10's and all the goodness that came with those... then DirecTV kinda forced us over to their DVR+ platform. When we moved to a FiOS neighborhood, we used their set-top box. When FiOS "Quantum" launched, we changed to that. And it sucked so hard, I decided to take a look at alternatives, and rekindled my love affair with TiVo... was shocked at how far it had come, and with lifetime service being bundled with the Minis, the economics finally worked for me. Jumped back home with both feet and can't imagine having to rewind the clock back to anything else.

If one of my Roamios give up the ghost tomorrow, I drive to Best Buy and come home with a BOLT+. It's not even half a thought.

... and in fact to prove my loyalty, if I were to reactivate my DirecTV subscription - which has been inactive for 6+ years - I'd STILL be eligible for no-cost lifetime DVR service because I was such an early adopter... I'm STILL counting pennies with how far ahead I came out on that deal!


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

Well - with all of the TiVo love given, let me offer up an alternative view. 

For reasons detailed in this post I am now in a TiVo-less environment. It's a long read - but may be of some interest to some. For most regular visitors of the forum, probably not much of interest. It won't appeal to the TiVo-is-the-best-on-the-planet crowd or the 'OMG-TiVo-is-just-the-worst crowd. The last TiVo I had was deactivated on July 31st and now sits in a closet. I tried listing it on about a dozen local Facebook sale sites, but no interest. Not sure yet what I'll do with it.

In the 48 days with no TiVo since, I can say that it has worked out well. We've been pretty happy with the new system -- and in fact, since the family had pretty much moved away from TiVo when given the choice anyway (as mentioned in the post referenced) - it was hardly noticed when I disconnected the last TiVo. Everybody likes the freedom and removal of restrictions that used to come with the old system. I'm thinking of either getting a Shield this fall or perhaps the new boxee-looking Amazon Fire when it comes out (for the Alexa, Fire, and Harmony Hub functionality all-in-one-box). Whichever choice I make, it will seamlessly slip right into the current system with little or no disruption.

The real question for me to answer to you, I guess, is would I go back to TiVo?

The answer is: Of course ... but only if ...

I would certainly come back to TiVo if there was a dramatic redesign in interface and functionality. Unfortunately, often a company who made their mark by being innovators then find themselves being hamstrung by their own users in future attempts. Their own users keep them stuck in the past while other products come out that bring something new and unique. Look at the complaining with the latest update to TiVo -- complaining about an interface that had already been in use for _2 years_ already. I can't even imagine the howling ... the gnashing of teeth ... the rending of shirts ... that will happen with Hydra.

I'm looking at a new TV in about 2 years, I think. Most TV's now have pause of live TV built-in (and some have expandable memory via USB to increase the pause time). Combine that with Tablo now being available in most major brand's app stores (not to mention Plex) and I would likely go with one of those options vs what is available today.

I do still have a fondness for TiVo. I want to see some major steps taken and would love to see something new. It's what keeps me popping in from time to time for news on updates. The step towards Hydra is the first baby-step in the right direction. Unfortunately, either due to commitments to their primary customers in MSO or the existing box customers - I fear that not enough will be done. I would love to see some definitive, purposeful steps taken to being a software-driven company. I would love to see the TiVo engine made available through app stores on a variety of devices. I would like to see a network tuner (or support for existing network tuners) ... or a Shield app ... or wide device support.

I would like to see a dramatic redesign of the UI. (And if universal search could finally be fixed for streaming partners, that would be a big start.) I'm currently looking at a tile view in my new system that is showing me 48 recordings per screen (configurable) with easy search and navigation - although I typically have it set most times to about 14 - 16 per screen. I'm also becoming a fan of slice view.

If I were TiVo, I would first get the existing boxes to a single UI (mostly complete - except for a couple of sub-menu oddities with the Premiere) and then feature-freeze them as legacy boxes while all future development goes into Hydra and the hopeful move to a software-based focus while opening up hardware to others. I'm not sure I see any other way to stay relevant in retail with those numbers dwindling as they are. MSO will stay a focus for them - as MSO (and patent royalties) are what pays the light bills these days.

For a specific group - TiVo is still (in my opinion) the best option. An older relative who I gave one of my TiVo's to is completely happy with it. They don't do really any streaming. Most TV watching is from OTA. The TiVo is easily the best choice for them. I would happily recommend the TiVo as the best choice for a parent/grandparent DVR. What is interesting is watching another use-case with another friend play out. I gave a friend and his family another of my TiVo's with lifetime after they just decided to follow that wacky cord-cuttin' lifestyle. Shortly after getting it transferred (a hellish experience in it's own thanks to new overseas support) and then up and running - I also got a Plex server setup on their main family computer. In the 4 months since - I've watched the experience in their house mirror the one in mine. Given the choice of the TiVo vs Plex and/or streaming -- my friend and his two kids are naturally migrating away from the TiVo. Only his wife is really recording anything on the TiVo with DWTS during last May (when they got the TiVo) and the OnePass picking it up again this evening. To be honest - I haven't checked in with them for a week ... and I know that sometimes his wife was watching DWTS at the gym via Hulu for part of last year ... so I'm not sure if she is actually transitioning to that as her primary also. But last time I checked in - I was making sure the update didn't cause any problems with their TiVo. To my surprise, neither my friend or his kids were even aware there was even an update. Nobody had used the interface. For live TV watching, they preferred to use the OneGuide of the XBox One (due to full voice control) and were using a Talon remote for those times that a remote was needed for app navigation or TV Listing expansion in OneGuide. With no outside influence - they were simply choosing Plex or apps over TiVo ... and were not even using it for live TV listings. It was acting mostly as a TV tuner just accepting commands for channel changing sent from the Kinect as channels were chosen via OneGuide. As far as I know, it is recording DWTS each week now, but I'll have to check to see whether it is actually viewed on the TiVo. If he does proceed further down the path as I did, I have asked him to do the same thing I did for him and pay-it-forward. Find somebody that the TiVo would be a good fit for and simply give it to them. It still can be very useful for somebody with the right needs.

So -- no, I would not buy a TiVo today for my needs (and actively took steps to replace the TiVo's I had because of them) ... but I would be very happy to buy a TiVo (or something with a TiVo interface) should some major steps be taken to change how they currently deliver, present, and curate content. I still have a great fondness for TiVo with many years invested - but I just couldn't overlook where they have most recently fallen short. But perhaps given a great enough change in focus over the next couple of years? Who knows? They will look like the innovators of old again and I will be very pleased to take another look.


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## Karyn (Jul 19, 2017)

eherberg said:


> Well - with all of the TiVo love given, let me offer up an alternative view.
> 
> For reasons detailed in this post I am now in a TiVo-less environment. It's a long read - but may be of some interest to some. For most regular visitors of the forum, probably not much of interest. It won't appeal to the TiVo-is-the-best-on-the-planet crowd or the 'OMG-TiVo-is-just-the-worst crowd. The last TiVo I had was deactivated on July 31st and now sits in a closet. I tried listing it on about a dozen local Facebook sale sites, but no interest. Not sure yet what I'll do with it.
> 
> ...


A lot of time and thought went into your post and it is very appreciated! You make some very excellent points.

I'm a fan of the recent update and was invited to participate in beta testing for the new platform, which I'm not going to do as my toes have been in the TiVo current but a scant few months so my feedback would do very little good.

I suspect the reason TiVo has a very aged feel to it is probably, well, because it IS. TiVo can't add network accessibility if they wanted to as they spent their efforts for many years ensuring their boxes were small footprint TiVo only occupied Alcatrazes. The software couldn't handle it and they blindly didn't seem to anticipate the severe shift in the viewing climate as it is today. That's where they've failed...not given up, just missed the big ship.

I'm very much enjoying my TiVo Roamio OTA with lifetime subscription but I've got it paired with a Roku 4 and Fire TV (soon both as splitter on order) plus a Mohu antenna that pulls in everything so there's really very little I can't do. Truth be told all of it's overkill. I think my quest to kill the kord turned into a quest to gain information and learn.

In any event, enjoyed your post.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Nope. No way I'd pay for new TiVo units. TiVo has missed the boat and imho shows no signs of caring. Many of the reasons have already been expressed here, but I've spent my last dollar with TiVo. Ota is not an option for me so given my already increased use of roku and firetv which allows me to avoid the TiVo apps, I will not buy a new TiVo. When mine die or are impractical TiVo will depart my home.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

eherberg said:


> For reasons detailed in this post I am now in a TiVo-less environment. It's a long read - but may be of some interest to some.


It was of interest, thanks.

I'd be _very_ interested in a HomeRun based system if it handled pay cable. I'd love the flexibility of different front ends. But we haven't cut the cord. I did a quick search and found this for HomeRun DVR:



> *DRM protected Cable TV channels in the USA are available to be viewed Live via Windows 10 devices. Record, playback and other platforms coming soon.


And Plex DVR appears to only handle OTA.

For us the access box question is all tied up in FIOS as a TV provider. We have Netflix and Amazon Prime, but rarely get to them because we are watching OnePass shows.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Ota is not an option for me so given my already increased use of roku and firetv which allows me to avoid the TiVo apps, I will not buy a new TiVo.


 Will you go cable DVR or OTT?


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Probably cable


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

No. I'm exclusively using an X1 right now since it was thrown in at no additional cost with my bundle with Comcast and it's pretty darn good. I don't want to live without voice control at this point as we use it all the time and it works flawlessly.


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## tim_m (Mar 8, 2017)

That's one thing i'm very looking forward to the voice remote for tivo. I'll definitely be getting one.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

tlc said:


> But what if that lifetime upgrade hadn't come around? And what are the odds of it happening again?


It has happened more than once and I have deep enough pockets to afford $149 annually to keep it going. There have been deals on the Roamio OTA which can be converted to cable, upgrade offers from old Tivos, a great price on the Bolt... And the Bolts are on my list of things to watch on Black Friday/Cyber Monday.

Need to watch for specials and be patient. I bumbled onto a buy one get one free Tempurpedic pillow offer on the last day of the special. Bought one as a gift, kept the other. It was on my Black Friday list.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

I just picked up a Bolt + for 375 on ebay so the answer is yes I will continue to buy and will probably get the 4K mini when it comes out


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> My sister is thinking about a new TV and I thought a TLC Roku would be a pretty good fit for her. They are OTA only, don't watch allot of TV, and currently have a pretty old Roku that I bought them years ago.
> 
> Unfortunately I will likely be sticking with my Panasonic Plasma for as long as it lasts as I live where the top internet speed available is about 11ish Mbps so the only way I have to get access to UHD content is to buy UHD Blu-rays and really don't see myself buying allot of those as I see most movies in a movie theater.


love my Panasonic Plasma in my bedroom - but it's power hungry and huge. I may consider a Roku TV for the bedroom where I don't need the most amazing picture (usually just for lounging or bedtime viewing).



tim_m said:


> That's one thing i'm very looking forward to the voice remote for tivo. I'll definitely be getting one.


haven't heard about this. interesting.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

b_scott said:


> love my Panasonic Plasma in my bedroom - but it's power hungry and huge. I may consider a Roku TV for the bedroom where I don't need the most amazing picture (usually just for lounging or bedtime viewing).


I'm using a 32" Sharp/Roku TV for occasional use. It was cheap, has a very good picture and sound, and no Ethernet (just wireless). Almost the same remote as my Roku 3. Works well with my Roamio.

And I would buy another TiVo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

One thing to consider is that CableCARD is at the end of it's life and there is no replacement in the works. Once cable companies start switching to IP TiVos will be dead in the water. That could be 5-10 years off still, we don't know for sure, but some cable companies, namely Comcast, seem to be moving toward IP faster so it could be sooner for their customers.

For OTA I think TiVo is a good choice. I wish they wouldn't have abandoned the Mavrik though. I think a headless system, akin to Tablo, that uses popular streaming devices for playback is a good direction for them to go with OTA.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

Dan203 said:


> One thing to consider is that CableCARD is at the end of it's life and there is no replacement in the works. Once cable companies start switching to IP TiVos will be dead in the water. That could be 5-10 years off still, we don't know for sure, but some cable companies, namely Comcast, seem to be moving toward IP faster so it could be sooner for their customers.
> 
> For OTA I think TiVo is a good choice. I wish they wouldn't have abandoned the Mavrik though. I think a headless system, akin to Tablo, that uses popular streaming devices for playback is a good direction for them to go with OTA.


I agree it is going to be awhile depending on the company... My cable company just started using the Pace Tivo's last year which has the CC in them... So it will be a long while before they abandon anything


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

good points about cablecard. I have two Premieres and their apps are deathly slow, so slow that I don't ever use them. Otherwise they're just a repository for shows since I almost never watch anything I plan to watch, live. With PS Vue and a Fire TV box, I can still get that Live tv, and DVR (for 28 days, then on demand versions replace recordings). And no equipment to rent.

I'll be putting them out to pasture on Saturday and returning my cablecards. I'll keep both boxes for a couple months just in case anything changes with my service and I decide to go back. Otherwise I'll sell the two Lifetime'd boxes and be Tivo-free for the first time in 12 years.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

b_scott said:


> good points about cablecard. I have two Premieres and their apps are deathly slow, so slow that I don't ever use them. Otherwise they're just a repository for shows since I almost never watch anything I plan to watch, live. With PS Vue and a Fire TV box, I can still get that Live tv, and DVR (for 28 days, then on demand versions replace recordings). And no equipment to rent.
> 
> I'll be putting them out to pasture on Saturday and returning my cablecards. I'll keep both boxes for a couple months just in case anything changes with my service and I decide to go back. Otherwise I'll sell the two Lifetime'd boxes and be Tivo-free for the first time in 12 years.


You might want to hold on to the CableCARDs too, just in case. If you hate the new service and decide you want TiVo back setting up the CableCARDs can be a real PITA. For a few bucks a month it might be worth holding on to them just in case. (unless you're canceling cable completely)


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> One thing to consider is that CableCARD is at the end of it's life and there is no replacement in the works. Once cable companies start switching to IP TiVos will be dead in the water. That could be 5-10 years off still, we don't know for sure, but some cable companies, namely Comcast, seem to be moving toward IP faster so it could be sooner for their customers.
> 
> For OTA I think TiVo is a good choice. I wish they wouldn't have abandoned the Mavrik though. I think a headless system, akin to Tablo, that uses popular streaming devices for playback is a good direction for them to go with OTA.


The replacement will be branded streaming apps with forced commercials that can be deployed onto streaming boxes - similar to Hulu. The content will include timeboxed new episodes with on-demand libraries.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> One thing to consider is that CableCARD is at the end of it's life and there is no replacement in the works. Once cable companies start switching to IP TiVos will be dead in the water. That could be 5-10 years off still, we don't know for sure, but some cable companies, namely Comcast, seem to be moving toward IP faster so it could be sooner for their customers.


This comment made me think of an article I stumbled across last week describing new cable standards (RDK-B and DOCSIS 3.1) which are paving the way for IP to eventually replace QAM video on cable systems. Here's the relevant bit:

_It won't happen overnight, but the trajectory seems pretty clear: Devices based on RDK-V (video), and running on QAM, will sunset. Devices based on RDK-B, running on IP, will expand to absorb and deliver video - and video over Wi-Fi. At the recent CableLabs Winter conference, for instance, *panelists (myself included) on an IP Video segment were asked when the last QAM service would be shut off in the MVPD network. The answers ranged from 2023 to 2027* - so, predictions from 6 years from now to 10 years from now! (Not long ago, the answers usually were some shade of "not in my lifetime.") Swapping out QAM-only CPE takes time - but if you look at much of the QAM based investment now, the devices going in are primarily hybrid QAM-IP devices, which necessarily support DOCSIS IP delivery.
_​When the author refers to "the MPVD network," I suppose he means all cable companies across the US (or maybe North America, or possibly even the world). So the consensus guesstimate among these industry leaders is that the transition from QAM to IP video will be complete around 2025, when the last straggler crosses the line. Of course, it will begin much sooner. Rogers in Canada may be the first to start switching over while Comcast will probably be the first US cableco to transition. It's hard for me to believe that Comcast won't have begun shutting off QAM video for at least some channels in some regions by 2020 if not sooner.

Anyhow, this is the first predicted date range on this issue that I've ever seen, so found it interesting.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> This comment made me think of an article I stumbled across last week describing new cable standards (RDK-B and DOCSIS 3.1) which are paving the way for IP to eventually replace QAM video on cable systems. Here's the relevant bit:
> 
> _It won't happen overnight, but the trajectory seems pretty clear: Devices based on RDK-V (video), and running on QAM, will sunset. Devices based on RDK-B, running on IP, will expand to absorb and deliver video - and video over Wi-Fi. At the recent CableLabs Winter conference, for instance, *panelists (myself included) on an IP Video segment were asked when the last QAM service would be shut off in the MVPD network. The answers ranged from 2023 to 2027* - so, predictions from 6 years from now to 10 years from now! (Not long ago, the answers usually were some shade of "not in my lifetime.") Swapping out QAM-only CPE takes time - but if you look at much of the QAM based investment now, the devices going in are primarily hybrid QAM-IP devices, which necessarily support DOCSIS IP delivery.
> _​When the author refers to "the MPVD network," I suppose he means all cable companies across the US (or maybe North America, or possibly even the world). So the consensus guesstimate among these industry leaders is that the transition from QAM to IP video will be complete around 2025, when the last straggler crosses the line. Of course, it will begin much sooner. Rogers in Canada may be the first to start switching over while Comcast will probably be the first US cableco to transition. It's hard for me to believe that Comcast won't have begun shutting off QAM video for at least some channels in some regions by 2020 if not sooner.
> ...


Interesting. Looks like Comcast had a hand in developing that RDK-V spec, which is essentially a software stack for developing a IP based STB. Since they had such a major hand in developing the spec there is a good chance they plan on deploying it themselves sometime in the not to distant future.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I've never bought a non-OTA capable TiVo (last 10 years) for fear of obsolescence so I don't expect to be changing that policy at this late date. If my Roamio Basic dies I'd probably buy another Roamio OTA and move the cable card bracket from the Basic to one of the OTAs, or cancel my cable subscription.


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## elliottstabler (Jan 17, 2016)

I purchased a Bolt when it was released and included a year of 'free' service. I now pay by the year. With that in mind, I'd buy another TiVo for sure. I like using one box for everything, and if they added a built in 4K Blu-Ray player, I think it would be a no-brainer for most people.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

Artie Fufkin said:


> We have the TCL 55" Roku TV and are quite happy with it.


Plus they actively update the apps, so a Roku 4k tv is absolutely a great way to go. I love mine. Plus the Pluto app recognizes if you have an antenna attached to your v and incorporates them into the app. Pretty cool.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> You might want to hold on to the CableCARDs too, just in case. If you hate the new service and decide you want TiVo back setting up the CableCARDs can be a real PITA. For a few bucks a month it might be worth holding on to them just in case. (unless you're canceling cable completely)


I'm fully canceling. And it costs $9.95 a month for the second one.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Mine are only $2.50/mo. I've had one I haven't been using for like a year because I'm too lazy to return it and I figure it might come in handy someday.


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## Nickipedia (Jul 18, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Mine are only $2.50/mo. I've had one I haven't been using for like a year because I'm too lazy to return it and I figure it might come in handy someday.


Same here. $2.00 w/TA and I always keep a spare. If that one get's used I get another. Very helpful when something goes wrong and support wants to swap equipment. Or if i accidentally buy a toy that requires a CC...


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> It's also *questionable* whether the Bolt will support live linear 4K channels or on-demand 4K content from your cable provider once they begin offering it.


It's questionable because no cable companies are delivering recordable 4K content, so there is no way to test. If the cable companies don't start delivering recordable 4K soon, they will be blindsided by Roku, Apple TV, gigabit internet providers and the like.

My Roamio has lifetime, so I will keep that. My bizarre use case may be the Bolt to view recorded content from my Roamio, Netflix through the Bolt and all other streaming from my TV's built in apps. A 4K blu-ray player may be the major source of my 4K content.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chicagobrownblue said:


> It's questionable because no cable companies are delivering recordable 4K content, so there is no way to test. If the cable companies don't start delivering recordable 4K soon, they will be blindsided by Roku, Apple TV, gigabit internet providers and the like.


Well, you're right that no cable company (that I know of, anyhow) has begun carrying recordable 4K channels. (DirecTV satellite does, though, I believe.) But the specific reason why I say that it's questionable whether a Bolt would ever be able to receive and record 4K channels once cable companies DO start carrying them is that they would need to carried on the cable system via QAM, just the same as existing HD and SD channels, for them to be compatible with the Bolt as it currently stands. The other option, as opposed to QAM, is for those 4K channels to be carried via IP.

Comcast has already come out and pretty much stated that they'll only offer 4K (both as linear channels and as on-demand content) via IP, not QAM, because high bitrate 4K just takes up too much bandwidth on the QAM system. And I'd bet a dollar that's what will happen at Verizon FiOS too, given that they're currently beta-testing a new IP-only version of their TV service that DOES carry 4K channels. This new IPTV service requires new STBs from Verizon (capable of decoding and displaying 4K, unlike any of their current-gen STBs) and it's not compatible with TiVo/CableCARD since it doesn't use QAM at all, only IP. Meanwhile, their existing QAM-based TV service will likely continue to exist for years using current Quantum-branded STBs (as well as TiVos) but likely won't ever get 4K content (since none of the Verizon STBs those customers use can handle 4K). As for other cable providers like Charter, Cox, Altice, etc., I've read nothing about their plans for 4K, whether it will be delivered via QAM or IP. But given that Cox has adopted Comcast's X1 hardware platform, I'd bet they go the same route as Comcast, i.e. IP-only for 4K. We'll see.

It's possible that any cable operator could create an on-demand app for the Bolt that allows users to stream on-demand 4K content via IP, although, IMO, it's questionable whether any will do that other than maybe Cox, which already has an IP-based VOD app for TiVo used for HD and SD content. My guess is that cable companies are going to be putting their retail app development efforts going forward towards the big streaming platforms like Roku, Fire TV, etc., as opposed to TiVo, which looks increasingly last-gen as CableCARDs fade into obsolescence.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> it's questionable whether a Bolt would ever be able to receive and record 4K channels once cable companies DO start carrying them is that they would need to carried on the cable system via QAM


I got you. There is only 4K content via some form of streaming.

Speculating on how cable companies might deliver recordable 4K content is a waste of time. I think what you don't get is that Tivo is ahead of the game here and can adapt to recordable 4K if it is ever delivered.

I'm relying on my 4K TV to deliver 4K content via upgradeable apps. I will be a pig when buying my 4K TV to make sure it is upgradeable. Or, I'll go cheap and just buy a new 4K when one has new apps I want.

I don't even have a 4K TV yet. Big Bang Theory in 4K? Meh. Ditto for all the news programs I watch. The Olympics and Super Bowl have outstanding picture quality that is noticeably better than regular TV programs. So using the highest quality equipment and low compression delivery makes a perceivable difference even on my lowly 720p TV.

120Hz, 3D, 4K, 4K with HDR10 & Dolby Vision, 8K -- the list of selling points keeps growing but I'm not sure when I'll dive in.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Speculating on how cable companies might deliver recordable 4K content is a waste of time. I think what you don't get is that Tivo is ahead of the game here and can adapt to recordable 4K if it is ever delivered.


Believe what you want but, no, TiVo is NOT ahead of the game here. The Bolt doesn't even support HDR (either HDR10 or Dolby Vision). And TiVo won't be able to unilaterally adapt the Bolt in the future to record 4K cable channels. Either the cable company will transmit them in QAM just like current HD channels, in which case the Bolt will already be able to tune and record them via CableCARD -- OR -- the cable company will transmit them via IP, in which case the Bolt won't be able to access them without the cable company choosing to actively work with TiVo to implement a customized IP-based solution just for TiVo that works separately from CableCARD. I'm very skeptical that any cable company is going to do that since the FCC is not requiring it.

That said, the Bolt is a great way to get the most out of current HD cable combined with a 4K subscription to Netflix.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> Believe what you want but, no, TiVo is NOT ahead of the game here. The Bolt doesn't even support HDR (either HDR10 or Dolby Vision). And TiVo won't be able to unilaterally adapt the Bolt in the future to record 4K cable channels. Either the cable company will transmit them in QAM just like current HD channels, in which case the Bolt will already be able to tune and record them via CableCARD -- OR -- the cable company will transmit them via IP, in which case the Bolt won't be able to access them without the cable company choosing to actively work with TiVo to implement a customized IP-based solution just for TiVo that works separately from CableCARD. I'm very skeptical that any cable company is going to do that since the FCC is not requiring it.
> 
> That said, the Bolt is a great way to get the most out of current HD cable combined with a 4K subscription to Netflix.


It has been stated that the bolt does support HDR. The problem is no app supports it yet. And quite frankly that is on Netflix right there. They took over a year to add it to my 2015 Samsung TV. The ps4 pro app doesn't even have it yet


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

compnurd said:


> It has been stated that the bolt does support HDR. The problem is no app supports it yet. And quite frankly that is on Netflix right there. They took over a year to add it to my 2015 Samsung TV. The ps4 pro app doesn't even have it yet


Hmm, OK. I didn't think there was ever a definitive word about HDR support for the Bolt from TiVo. However, I knew that no apps so far have ever offered HDR on it. If the hardware and TiVo OS can support HDR as-is, that's a good thing. Seems weird to me, though, that Netflix would go two years without updating their app to add HDR as, more than any other streaming service, they're very good about keeping their apps updated. (BTW, I think Netflix on the PS4 Pro got updated late last month to support HDR.)


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> Hmm, OK. I didn't think there was ever a definitive word about HDR support for the Bolt from TiVo. However, I knew that no apps so far have ever offered HDR on it. If the hardware and TiVo OS can support HDR as-is, that's a good thing. Seems weird to me, though, that Netflix would go two years without updating their app to add HDR as, more than any other streaming service, they're very good about keeping their apps updated. (BTW, I think Netflix on the PS4 Pro got updated late last month to support HDR.)


They took two years to do it on my Samsung TV so who the hell knows lol. The TiVo outputs HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a so it can support it


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

The question the OP asked was *would you purchase a TiVo now *The answer is not so easy. If I just got my own apartment from moving from my parents home, and had a single HDTV, and had a Comcast cable package triple play (like I have now with HBO SHO TMC etc.) on a two year contract for $159 before taxes the answer is I would not purchase a TiVo as the Comcast package comes with their newest X1 DVR or a free cable card and a $2.50 bill cr. so a TiVo would be much more expensive in this example, plus I would get on-sight service and free DVR upgrades when they come out if I want one. I would never have to be concerned about Comcast going to IPTV. The equation may change as your living space gets more rooms and more HDTVs, but IPTV will still be hanging over you when using a TiVo. I already have a lifetime TiVos and minis so I will not change for now.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> Seems weird to me, though, that Netflix would go two years without updating their app to add HDR as,


My last job was software QA. I always smiled when higher ups asked me how many people they could let go after a major software release. I always said, I'll let you know after the post mortem. After the post mortem I would say NONE. Enhancement requests, bug fixes, new database software -- I could still have a job long after I died. Software development is expensive, resources are scarce and are deployed to the most important projects first.

I didn't even know about HDR when 4K first came out. Now I know, thanks to TCF, about HDR10, Dolby Vision and HDR10+. But as I said before:



chicagobrownblue said:


> I think what you don't get is that Tivo is ahead of the game here and can adapt to recordable 4K if it is ever delivered.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> the cable company will transmit them via IP, in which case the Bolt won't be able to access them without the cable company choosing to actively work with TiVo to implement a customized IP-based solution just for TiVo that works separately from CableCARD. I'm very skeptical that any cable company is going to do that since *the FCC is not requiring it.*


This. The cable companies have no interest in supporting third party boxes (consumer owned TiVos). It's less box rental money and more support variations. They were forced to before.

So unless you're lucky enough to have a provider that selects TiVo software to go in their rental boxes, no TiVo for IPTV. I think we'll eventually see un-skippable commercials on cable DVRs and OTT apps.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I'll keep using my Roamio + Minis on Comcast for as long as they still support Cablecard - my original Roamio was killed by lightning in May and I immediately replaced it with another one. Automatic comskip and quick mode make it well worth it for us, and I don't see any Comcast whole-home solution being cheaper than Tivo.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chicagobrownblue said:


> I think what you don't get is that Tivo is ahead of the game here and can adapt to recordable 4K if it is ever delivered.


And I think what you don't get are the business and technical realities of how TiVo, CableCARD, and cable TV delivery works. We'll see who's right as cable TV embraces 4K in the coming years...


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> And I think what you don't get are the business and technical realities of how TiVo, CableCARD, and cable TV delivery works. We'll see who's right as cable TV embraces 4K in the coming years...


You've moved on from admitting that you did not understand that the Bolt -- a 2 year old product -- supports HDR to dissing my business and technical knowledge. But you didn't understand what the Bolt currently offers, much less how Tivo could use the Bolt for the next whatever from the cable companies. So, I'm going to guess your technical and business knowledge is about as deep as your knowledge of current Tivo hardware: limited.

You want me to jump three years into an indeterminate future. Not going to do that. The Bolt is a frigging $199.99 full retail for the hardware and $149.99 for a full year of service. ~$350 for a year. You must be the guy that just moved out from his parents place to think that is too much risk.

My Roamio Basic records all the content I want in HD. The Netflix app on my Roamio is fine. The only 4K content I will probably watch is from a 4K blu-ray player.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chicagobrownblue said:


> You've moved on from admitting that you did not understand that the Bolt -- a 2 year old product -- supports HDR to dissing my business and technical knowledge. But you didn't understand what the Bolt currently offers, much less how Tivo could use the Bolt for the next whatever from the cable companies. So, I'm going to guess your technical and business knowledge is about as deep as your knowledge of current Tivo hardware: limited.
> 
> You want me to jump three years into an indeterminate future. Not going to do that. The Bolt is a frigging $199.99 full retail for the hardware and $149.99 for a full year of service. ~$350 for a year. You must be the guy that just moved out from his parents place to think that is too much risk.
> 
> My Roamio Basic records all the content I want in HD. The Netflix app on my Roamio is fine. The only 4K content I will probably watch is from a 4K blu-ray player.


Ha! Too funny. FWIW, the Bolt as-is does not support HDR, so don't tell me what I did or didn't understand. If you want to prove me wrong, find a statement from TiVo (or a third party who has gotten info from TiVo) stating that it does support HDR. The most recent credible source on the matter is here, which states that the Bolt "will support HDR when TiVo flips on that capability." It's also worth noting that when TiVo rolled out the Bolt+ last year, they didn't mention anything about HDR. Nothing on their website, including the support section, mentions HDR. Yes, the Bolt contains hardware that is HDR-capable but the software/firmware on the device, as it currently stands, doesn't yet support it.

You seem to think that my posts above were somehow arguing completely against cable subscribers buying a TiVo today. That was never my intention. However, I was pointing out the very real risk that investing in a TiVo now means that you may miss out on 4K and/or HDR content from your cable operator in the coming years. (Not that you should care, since you don't have a 4K TV.) And I'm not even talking about three years from now. I'm talking about next year. And even in the past! How about last year when Comcast offered customers the ability to watch over 80 hours of the Rio Olympics in 4K on certain devices which DID NOT INCLUDE TiVo? I'll bet when the Winter Olympics roll around early next year, Comcast (as well as DirecTV and DISH, the current leaders in 4K content) will make some of it available in 4K to their X1 customers using their most advanced new boxes like the XG4. And I bet that Verizon will offer some of the Games in 4K on the next-gen IPTV service they're currently beta testing. But I would bet that Comcast and Verizon FiOS customers won't be able to enjoy any of that 4K content on a TiVo Bolt.


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## Reeber (Sep 24, 2014)

I only bought a Tivo bolt almost 2 years ago after my Pemiere got zapped by a power surge. It literally blows away the "multi room DVR" which is the only option my cable company Optimum offers. I barely watch tv at all but my Bolt is filled with my kids shows. I mainly use the Bolt to download my shows onto my IPod touch so I can watch my Walking Dead in my rare kid free time. I also just added my first mini which is working great and allowed me to get rid of one of my Optimum "Multi Room DVRs" saving me 10 bucks a month off my cable bill. Tivo has come a long way since I bought my first Hughes HDVR2 over 10 years ago.


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

OP: I’ve had some model of a DVR since ReplayTV was available. I’ve also had a DVR from my cable company. Several years ago I reduced what I pay my cable company (notice I did not say I saved money), by replacing the cable company DVR with a Roamio Basic and installing a TiVo Mini in the den which allowed me to drop the associated monthly charge for a second cable connection. About a year ago, I installed an antenna in the attic and ran coax to the Roamio Basic and I bought a Bolt and ran coax to it. It is not a Bolt OTA, but a standard Bolt. I was toying with cord cutting and using PSVue. But, for me, the savings are not there. 

So, yes, if any of my TiVo’s died (Roamio Basic, Bolt, Mini, Stream) i’d buy another one in a heart beat.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> Ha! Too funny. FWIW, the Bolt as-is does not support HDR, so don't tell me what I did or didn't understand. If you want to prove me wrong, find a statement from TiVo (or a third party who has gotten info from TiVo) stating that it does support HDR


 I'll use you as the credible source:


NashGuy said:


> The most recent credible source on the matter is here, which states that the Bolt "will support HDR *when TiVo flips on that capability*."


and, you again:


NashGuy said:


> Yes, the Bolt contains hardware that is HDR-capable but the software/firmware on the device, as it currently stands, doesn't yet support it.


The software is updated by Tivo quarterly. I'm guessing the firmware can also be updated. But without regular 4K content with HDR why bother?



NashGuy said:


> You seem to think that my posts above were somehow arguing completely against cable subscribers buying a TiVo today. That was never my intention. However, I was pointing out the very real risk that investing in a TiVo now means that you may miss out on 4K and/or HDR content from your cable operator in the coming years. (Not that you should care, since you don't have a 4K TV.)


My cable company has no recordable 4K content with HDR and no recordable 4K only content. I could buy a new TV every year with each little nuanced feature that I would never be able to notice because my cable company does not deliver it.

But your posts did come across to me as dissing a Tivo and the HUGE risk of a $350 investment. If $350 is significant risk, you are living beyond your means buying a DVR or a new smartphone or a new tablet -- but many do.



NashGuy said:


> And I'm not even talking about three years from now. I'm talking about next year. And even in the past! How about last year when Comcast offered customers the ability to watch over 80 hours of the Rio Olympics in 4K on certain devices which DID NOT INCLUDE TiVo?


80 hours of 4K content. Wow. Tivo will not invest in the effort to support one off 4K content that does not recur. Comcast could easily change how they deliver their 4K content and then Tivo has wasted time and money on disposable software and firmware.

And, the Olympics have always looked outstanding on my 720p TV. More care in producing content produces a better picture on good TVs. The PBS series Flight also was outstanding. They shot using 8K stereo cameras but obviously took great care in reducing the show for HDTVs.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chicagobrownblue said:


> But your posts did come across to me as dissing a Tivo and the HUGE risk of a $350 investment. If $350 is significant risk, you are living beyond your means buying a DVR or a new smartphone or a new tablet -- but many do.


For some $350 is a significant risk. For others, $1,050 -- which is the cost of a new Bolt+ with lifetime service -- is a significant risk. Whether or not TiVo's compatibility with current and future 4K and HDR content is something _you personally_ care about, I really don't care. I simply brought it up as a point to be considered by other readers of this thread (of varying financial means) who may care about that. Some people like to take such things into consideration before purchasing.



chicagobrownblue said:


> Comcast could easily change how they deliver their 4K content and then Tivo has wasted time and money on disposable software and firmware.


If you'd done HALF the amount of reading on this topic that I have over the past couple years, you'd know better. Just read this one article from this past March, for example. I'll quote the key bits for you:

_Although Comcast has shown demos of 4K UHD video over both QAM and IP networks, Seiden says that he sees the company moving forward solely with 4K over IP.

"4K HEVC almost has to be done over IP," declares Seiden, pointing out that a single 4K stream takes up almost an entire 6MHz channel in a cable network, and with QAM resources as tight as they are, that's too much bandwidth for an operator to siphon away from other operations.

As for timing, the wait for Comcast's 4K UHD services may finally be coming closer to an end. According to Seiden, the company has multiple 4K set-tops in the works, but the first ones should arrive in 2017. Comcast will likely target serious 4K TV promotions nearer to the start of the 2018 Winter Olympics._​
And so you understand the implications of that, it means that all future 4K content from Comcast will be delivered in a format (IP) that cannot be received or recorded by any retail TiVo UNLESS Comcast were to either work with TiVo to be compatible with their IP system (HIGHLY unlikely based not only on Comcast's position in last year's "Unlock the Box" debate at the FCC but also on basic business realities) or if Comcast created a new IP-based VOD app for TiVo (improbable, IMO, but not wildly implausible).

And as a follow-up, I can tell you that Comcast started offering a 4K HDR model of their X1 DVR this past spring:
Comcast Starts to Deploy 4K/HDR X1 Box | Multichannel



chicagobrownblue said:


> And, the Olympics have always looked outstanding on my 720p TV. More care in producing content produces a better picture on good TVs. The PBS series Flight also was outstanding. They shot using 8K stereo cameras but obviously took great care in reducing the show for HDTVs.


Cool. Not sure why I'm bothering to even try to educate you on this stuff then. Enjoy your 720p TV. I'll be over here enjoying UHD in Dolby Vision on my LG OLED B6.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> For some $350 is a significant risk. For others, $1,050 -- which is the cost of a new Bolt+ with lifetime service -- is a significant risk.


You don't seem to understand that lifetime is not required nor is a Bolt+. Don't get a Bolt+ with lifetime if you can't afford it or it's a big risk. $350 is the cost of a Bolt with one year of prepaid service. Much cheaper option. Here you are dissing Tivo by pretending there are no cheaper options than $1050. And the option you say is expensive is inconsistent with your concern about Tivo. 


NashGuy said:


> _or if Comcast created a new IP-based _*VOD app for TiVo (improbable, IMO, but not wildly implausible).*


I'd say it's probable, they are already using the Tivo interface:
_"According to the X1 site, the XG4 sports six tuners... a 4K-capable device *that uses the* *TiVo interface."*_



NashGuy said:


> Cool. Not sure why I'm bothering to even try to educate you on this stuff then. Enjoy your 720p TV. I'll be over here enjoying UHD in Dolby Vision on my LG OLED B6.


I can easily afford what you have but don't see the value in it. But you do seem to be focused on the most expensive Tivo, not sure why. Maybe you can't afford the Bolt+ with Lifetime because of the UHD set you have?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chicagobrownblue said:


> You don't seem to understand that lifetime is not required nor is a Bolt+. Don't get a Bolt+ with lifetime if you can't afford it or it's a big risk. $350 is the cost of a Bolt with one year of prepaid service. Much cheaper option. Here you are dissing Tivo by pretending there are no cheaper options than $1050. And the option you say is expensive is inconsistent with your concern about Tivo.


 Right. I've been a TiVo owner for years now and regularly read and post on this site but I don't understand Tivo hardware and service options and pricing. I was merely pointing out the range of costs that a hypothetical new TiVo Bolt buyer may be considering today. If, say, you have a nice 4K TV and you care about access to 4K programming, you may want to think twice about plunking down money for a TiVo Bolt -- costing anywhere from $350 for the base hardware plus required first year of service all the way up to $1050 for a Bolt+ with lifetime service -- since you may find yourself next year wishing you had access to the growing amount of 4K content available through other boxes/service providers. (Like, for instance, the 4K college football game that FS1 airs live today on DirecTV, DISH and Layer3.)



chicagobrownblue said:


> I'd say it's probable, they are already using the Tivo interface:
> _"According to the X1 site, the XG4 sports six tuners... a 4K-capable device _*that uses the* *TiVo interface."*


You misunderstood the article. Arris, which is a hardware company separate from Comcast, makes devices for lots of different pay TV service providers, ranging from little local cable companies in rural areas all the way up to Comcast, the nation's largest. Arris makes the XG4 (as well as other boxes) for Comcast. The XG4 runs Comcast's X1 operating system. One of the many other boxes that Arris offers to other cable providers is the new MG2, which runs the TiVo UI. But here's the important part: *Comcast doesn't use the MG2*. The MG2 is for small-to-midsize cable operators, which are really the future of TiVo's business:
Arris launches new TiVo-powered set-tops aimed at smaller cable operators | FierceCable

The fact that Arris manufactures both the XG4 and the MG2 says absolutely nothing about the probability of Comcast doing favors for TiVo owners in the future by going out of their way to make 4K content available to them. (Remember, Comcast loves their X1 platform and would much rather you use it than TiVo.)



chicagobrownblue said:


> I can easily afford what you have but don't see the value in it. But you do seem to be focused on the most expensive Tivo, not sure why. Maybe you can't afford the Bolt+ with Lifetime because of the UHD set you have?


Honestly, this is just silly and doesn't merit a response.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

So, good timing I guess. There's now a $99 Lifetime transfer offer for _Premieres_ (not HDs) on a new Bolt or Bolt+.

Based on the input from this thread, I think I'm more interested in a Bolt than a Bolt+. If FIOS goes IPTV or I cut the cord, the Bolt will have some use for OTA. I can sacrifice two tuners and black for that.

My understanding is that the *only* differences between Bolt and Bolt+ are

# of tuners
size of hard drive
color of TiVo and remote
Bolt is cable OR OTA. Bolt+ is cable only.
Is this correct? No faster processor or better remote on the Bolt+ ?

Time to read about the hard drive upgrades...


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tlc said:


> So, good timing I guess. There's now a $99 Lifetime transfer offer for _Premieres_ (not HDs) on a new Bolt or Bolt+.
> 
> Based on the input from this thread, I think I'm more interested in a Bolt than a Bolt+. If FIOS goes IPTV or I cut the cord, the Bolt will have some use for OTA. I can sacrifice two tuners and black for that.
> 
> ...


Correct. And even the angle of the box's bend is the same.


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## davefred99 (Oct 31, 2004)

I do not understand accept TIVO's pricing model compared to Tablo. A basic Bolt is only $199.00 but the minimum annual Guide fee is a whopping $14.99 a month or $599.00 for lifetime. A Tablo 4 tuner model is $299.00 + a 500GB hard drive can be had for about $50.00 so on the surface the initial hardware cost for a bolt is cheaper but after you pay for the guide subscription its way more expensive in the long run. Plus TIVO is useless without a guide subscription where as at least the Tablo has basic DVR and live TV functions with no sub. The Tablo monthly Fee is only $4.99 or the lifetime fee is only $149.95.
I know they are two different products and function differently Tivo has some built in streaming apps but also requires a Mini + additional sub fees for each additional TV. Where as the Tablo can use most any streaming device you have such as FireTv,Roku,Chrome cast and manu more. I don't know but I am thinking Tablo is a better bang for the buck so I bought a $99.00 2 tuner refurb to test it out for myself. I wont be getting rid of my Tivo Roamio OTA just yet but its nice to have a second option for the future.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

davefred99 said:


> I do not understand accept TIVO's pricing model compared to Tablo. A basic Bolt is only $199.00 but the minimum annual Guide fee is a whopping $14.99 a month or $599.00 for lifetime. A Tablo 4 tuner model is $299.00 + a 500GB hard drive can be had for about $50.00 so on the surface the initial hardware cost for a bolt is cheaper but after you pay for the guide subscription its way more expensive in the long run. Plus TIVO is useless without a guide subscription where as at least the Tablo has basic DVR and live TV functions with no sub. The Tablo monthly Fee is only $4.99 or the lifetime fee is only $149.95.
> I know they are two different products and function differently Tivo has some built in streaming apps but also requires a Mini + additional sub fees for each additional TV. Where as the Tablo can use most any streaming device you have such as FireTv,Roku,Chrome cast and manu more. I don't know but I am thinking Tablo is a better bang for the buck so I bought a $99.00 2 tuner refurb to test it out for myself. I wont be getting rid of my Tivo Roamio OTA just yet but its nice to have a second option for the future.


As you said, you are trying to compare different products which is probably why the Roamio OTA still exists in their product lineup. Do the cost comparison of the Roamio OTA to the Tablo 4 tuner model plus 1TB drive and Tablo lifetime.

Scott


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

davefred99 said:


> I do not understand accept TIVO's pricing model compared to Tablo. A basic Bolt is only $199.00 but the minimum annual Guide fee is a whopping $14.99 a month or $599.00 for lifetime. A Tablo 4 tuner model is $299.00 + a 500GB hard drive can be had for about $50.00 so on the surface the initial hardware cost for a bolt is cheaper but after you pay for the guide subscription its way more expensive in the long run. Plus TIVO is useless without a guide subscription where as at least the Tablo has basic DVR and live TV functions with no sub. The Tablo monthly Fee is only $4.99 or the lifetime fee is only $149.95.
> I know they are two different products and function differently Tivo has some built in streaming apps but also requires a Mini + additional sub fees for each additional TV. Where as the Tablo can use most any streaming device you have such as FireTv,Roku,Chrome cast and manu more. I don't know but I am thinking Tablo is a better bang for the buck so I bought a $99.00 2 tuner refurb to test it out for myself. I wont be getting rid of my Tivo Roamio OTA just yet but its nice to have a second option for the future.


The Bolt is a high-end DVR that can do both cable and OTA while the Tablo is only for OTA. Given the Bolt's pricing, it doesn't make much sense for OTA-only folks and TiVo knows that. Which is why they keep the Roamio OTA around.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

davefred99 said:


> I do not understand accept TIVO's pricing model compared to Tablo. A basic Bolt is only $199.00 but the minimum annual Guide fee is a whopping $14.99 a month or $599.00 for lifetime. A Tablo 4 tuner model is $299.00 + a 500GB hard drive can be had for about $50.00 so on the surface the initial hardware cost for a bolt is cheaper but after you pay for the guide subscription its way more expensive in the long run. Plus TIVO is useless without a guide subscription where as at least the Tablo has basic DVR and live TV functions with no sub. The Tablo monthly Fee is only $4.99 or the lifetime fee is only $149.95.
> I know they are two different products and function differently Tivo has some built in streaming apps but also requires a Mini + additional sub fees for each additional TV. Where as the Tablo can use most any streaming device you have such as FireTv,Roku,Chrome cast and manu more. I don't know but I am thinking Tablo is a better bang for the buck so I bought a $99.00 2 tuner refurb to test it out for myself. I wont be getting rid of my Tivo Roamio OTA just yet but its nice to have a second option for the future.


I agree with others the Bolt is not directly comparable to a Tablo. The closer comparison is Tablo to Roamio OTA. What is "better" between those 2 depends on several user specific things. The Roamio OTA likely provides a better at your TV DVR experience. But for those who do more streaming than recording the Tablo "system" lets them buy as good a streamer as they want, and includes streaming to android & iOS. Price wise again it depends on what the user wants, if all you want is what the Roamio OTA offers it is cheaper than a 4 tuner Tablo system with lifetime service. If the Roamio OTA doesn't do all that you want and you intend on buying another Streamer (Roku etc.) and/or want to stream to android/iOS (which requires a Stand alone Stream for the Roamio) then the Tablo system may end up being cheaper.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

tlc said:


> If FIOS goes IPTV or I cut the cord, the Bolt will have some use for OTA. I can sacrifice two tuners and black for that.
> 
> My understanding is that the *only* differences between Bolt and Bolt+ are
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, your bullets left out the difference you'd detailed in your previous paragraph, OTA|CC-capable vs CableCARD-only.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> ... $350 for the base hardware plus required first year of service all the way up to $1050 for a Bolt+ with lifetime service


I think this is the first time -- I think -- you've mentioned a range [$350, $1,050] for the Bolts. Quite different from your all too frequent rants about the $1050 Bolt.


NashGuy said:


> 4K college football game that FS1 airs live today on DirecTV, DISH and Layer3.)


OMG, I might have to watch my Division III Alma Mater in HD? Oh, I'm OK with that.



NashGuy said:


> Honestly, this is just silly and doesn't merit a response.


And yet you respond...


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chicagobrownblue said:


> I think this is the first time -- I think -- you've mentioned a range [$350, $1,050] for the Bolts. Quite different from your all too frequent rants about the $1050 Bolt.


Wrong. ( And for the record, you brought up price in this thread before I did.) I mentioned specific prices in exactly two posts, #82 and #84. In both of those, I specially referenced two prices, $350 and $1050, referring to the low and high ends of the Bolt price range. No normal person would construe those two posts as some sort of "rant".

Some people just don't know when to quit...


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

At this point TiVo is a dead end product. Its run its course, they milked it and failed to adopt it to new technologies. I think this was all planned anyway.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I don’t think I would get one today. 

I would probably just get a streaming service.

I couldn’t see spending a $1000 when 3 years of a streaming service is that much.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

I don't think I'll be getting one today, but that's because I got one yesterday...


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## davefred99 (Oct 31, 2004)

I agree the Roamio OTA is a better comparison to Tablo than the Bolt but, Roamio is a dead end product and the Bolt replaces it. Tablo is currently fazing out there original 2 tuner base model for a newer version with built in storage for those that do not need to save everything on there DVR.
But back to my way of thinking at least for the OTA/Streaming folks. Tablo is moving forward with an OTA product that will blend with most of the streaming world for years to come. Tivo IMHO has abandoned us for the most part. I do not see myself ever going back to traditional cable so I have no use for a product that is mostly cable centric. I will most likely purchase some cable type programing but not from a traditional cable provider. For me its all about not paying for more than I need or actually will watch and saving as much money as possible in doing so. I am not in the traditional demographic group for cord cutters as I am newly retired. I worked in the cable/satellite industry for 27 yrs and have seen many things change in the TV world. I believe in 10 years most everything in the TV world will move away from the old school cable model but one way or another they ( programing and content owners ) are going to find a way to monetize it. 
Back on the original Topic I am pretty sure I will not be purchasing any new TIVO's


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## NoVa (Feb 26, 2006)

I just did on Saturday: Upgraded my Premier 4 to a Bolt.

This is my 3rd TiVo since 2006.
I keep reading TiVo's demise but just like some dinosaurs I'll believe it when it happens.

This is my first TiVo replacement where I don't have a plan to sell the old box...yet.
That's only important to illustrate that I am recognizing the changing time shifting TV recording landscape from physical to cloud based is forthcoming.

Also - Seems like everyone is hyped for 4K but as yet there is no widely distribute sports or network programming of note.

The only comparable data point that I have when there was this big a technology shift was the late 90's when High Def TV started its migration both in terms of consumer electronics & content delivery (DTV).

You had the manufacturers pushing HDTV sets & you had the government pushing digital signals delivery (DTV) & phasing out analog signals.

Yet both did not make headways until several years after their initial swells: HDTV in the latter half of the 2000's & total digital delivery post 2011; i.e. 7+ years for the TV sets & almost 13+ years after DTV out was announced.

So long story short - I still have plenty of time before I feel extinct with my new Bolt.
Benefit is that since I've never been an early adopter I'll let all the tech hipsters take the early adoption tax again for me.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

NoVa said:


> I just did on Saturday: Upgraded my Premier 4 to a Bolt.
> 
> This is my 3rd TiVo since 2006.
> I keep reading TiVo's demise but just like some dinosaurs I'll believe it when it happens.
> ...


TiVo's demise was predicted in 2003.... and here we are bigger and better 14 years later.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

davefred99 said:


> I agree the Roamio OTA is a better comparison to Tablo than the Bolt but, Roamio is a dead end product and the Bolt replaces it.


That's kind of an interesting statement. While many things are "dead end products" when you buy them TiVos including the Roamio OTA are actually not "dead end products" when you buy them, they get manufacture provided on going upgrades and improvements. While the Bolt is TiVo's next/current generation of DVRs, when it comes to use as an OTA DVR the Bolt doesn't function enough better than the Roamio OTA to talk about. What the Bolt offers is additional (and better working) non-DVR features. The reality is that a Roamio OTA + a Good Roku/etc. actually cost less and than a Bolt with all in. The only real reason for an OTA user who primarily wanted a traditional DVR to have upgraded to a Bolt is if they got one of TiVo's deals to move lifetime off an old unit.


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## NoVa (Feb 26, 2006)

Sparky1234 said:


> TiVo's demise was predicted in 2003.... and here we are bigger and better 14 years later.


I always laugh at the people who thumbsdown TiVo & it's business model & their way of moving on is to shift their consumption technology every 6 months.

Moving is a PIA whether physical or virtual!


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## davefred99 (Oct 31, 2004)

Tivo has survived mostly on patent infringement law suits, not consumer sales. Tivo is still a good product if you are in want of a better Cable DVR system but not necessarily for the OTA/Streaming market. Its subscription model is too burdensome for frugal cord cutters like myself. Plus with Tivo you are locked into using there Mini for secondary Tv's where as a Roku or FireTv is more than capable at a lower cost and would eliminate the added subscription fees of the Mini.
I am not bashing Tivo as I still have a Roamio OTA plus a Mini but I have already paid for lifetime service for them. I just would not do it again if I were starting out fresh and will not be replacing them in the furure because I think there are arguably better and cheaper options for my purpose as a cord cutter non cable consumer.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

davefred99 said:


> Tivo has survived mostly on patent infringement law suits, not consumer sales. Tivo is still a good product if you are in want of a better Cable DVR system but not necessarily for the OTA/Streaming market. Its subscription model is too burdensome for frugal cord cutters like myself. Plus with Tivo you are locked into using there Mini for secondary Tv's where as a Roku or FireTv is more than capable at a lower cost and would eliminate the added subscription fees of the Mini.
> I am not bashing Tivo as I still have a Roamio OTA plus a Mini but I have already paid for lifetime service for them. I just would not do it again if I were starting out fresh and will not be replacing them in the furure because I think there are arguably better and cheaper options for my purpose as a cord cutter non cable consumer.


No longer any subscription fees on Minis. And does a reasonable Amazon streaming.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

davefred99 said:


> Tivo has survived mostly on patent infringement law suits, not consumer sales. Tivo is still a good product if you are in want of a better Cable DVR system but not necessarily for the OTA/Streaming market. Its subscription model is too burdensome for frugal cord cutters like myself. Plus with Tivo you are locked into using there Mini for secondary Tv's where as a Roku or FireTv is more than capable at a lower cost and would eliminate the added subscription fees of the Mini.
> I am not bashing Tivo as I still have a Roamio OTA plus a Mini but I have already paid for lifetime service for them. I just would not do it again if I were starting out fresh and will not be replacing them in the furure because I think there are arguably better and cheaper options for my purpose as a cord cutter non cable consumer.


I also rely on a combination of streaming and my Roamio OTA and I somewhat agree with you. Streaming (both on-demand and live) is the future. To the extent that the Roamio OTA is mainly focused on OTA TV (which it does very well) versus streaming (which it doesn't), I'd agree that it's a "dead-end product".

TiVo, of course, knows this, which is why they were trying to develop their own OTA network DVR product that would integrate with popular streaming boxes: the Mavrik. It would have competed head-to-head with Tablo. Too bad it didn't come to market but apparently they didn't have the tech worked out too well. And I'm sure that their new bosses from Rovi weren't all that interested in it, given their disdain for TiVo continuing to make their own retail consumer devices.

So what, if anything, is next from TiVo for OTA? Do they keep manufacturing Roamio OTAs or just sell through the existing stock and discontinue it? (I would guess the latter.) Do they make a Bolt OTA (which they had originally planned to do when the Bolt first came out two years ago) or do they just try to license the TiVo OS to a third party to make their own OTA DVR? (Again, I'd guess the latter.)

I'm not sure what will ultimately replace my Roamio OTA. Whatever it is hasn't come to market yet, because it will be something with ATSC 3.0 tuners, probably used in conjunction with either an Android TV or Apple TV streaming box.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

davefred99 said:


> Tivo has survived mostly on patent infringement law suits, not consumer sales. Tivo is still a good product if you are in want of a better Cable DVR system but not necessarily for the OTA/Streaming market. Its subscription model is too burdensome for frugal cord cutters like myself. Plus with Tivo you are locked into using there Mini for secondary Tv's where as a Roku or FireTv is more than capable at a lower cost and would eliminate the added subscription fees of the Mini.
> I am not bashing Tivo as I still have a Roamio OTA plus a Mini but I have already paid for lifetime service for them. I just would not do it again if I were starting out fresh and will not be replacing them in the furure because I think there are arguably better and cheaper options for my purpose as a cord cutter non cable consumer.


Also a non-cable guy here, and I've found the Roamio OTA a great option for my OTA viewing. The current Roamio OTA eliminates that horrid separate lifetime subscription bump, more than the price of the device itself. But I also do little streaming, streaming, at most, occasionally from YouTube. (And even there, I find searching through the Roamio OTA YouTube app less "fulfilling" than searching on my tablet/PC--although I suspect that this is the nature of streaming.)


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> Also a non-cable guy here, and I've found the Roamio OTA a great option for my OTA viewing. The current Roamio OTA eliminates that horrid separate lifetime subscription bump, more than the price of the device itself. But I also do little streaming, streaming, at most, occasionally from YouTube. (And even there, I find searching through the Roamio OTA YouTube app less "fulfilling" than searching on my tablet/PC--although I suspect that this is the nature of streaming.)


A nice thing about TiVo's YouTube app is that you can browse for clips on your tablet/phone and then cast them to the TiVo for viewing on the TV. In general, I'm not a fan of casting but it makes sense for YouTube where I am sometimes searching/browsing for one short clip after another. It's easier to do that on a (voice search-enabled) touch-screen in hand than with a TV remote, IMO.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> *A nice thing about TiVo's YouTube app is that you can browse for clips on your tablet/phone and then cast them to the TiVo for viewing on the TV*. In general, I'm not a fan of casting but it makes sense for YouTube where I am sometimes searching/browsing for one short clip after another. It's easier to do that on a (voice search-enabled) touch-screen in hand than with a TV remote, IMO.


Apologies for heading down a side road, but...

Can you queue-up YouTube videos to be viewed in this manner? Rather than having to manually initiate each "cast" after the previous video ends?


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## megory (Jan 23, 2003)

If the creators of TiVo still owned TiVo, I'd be thrilled to continue, but they don't. So, no, I wouldn't. 
IMO, Rovi, the new owners, have no loyalty to their customers, have broken what worked and messed with a great product. 
I'm disappointed in TiVo, and, at this point, wd go with a cable service DVR Very sad, since I have been loyal to Tivo for more than 15 years.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

krkaufman said:


> Apologies for heading down a side road, but...
> 
> Can you queue-up YouTube videos to be viewed in this manner? Rather than having to manually initiate each "cast" after the previous video ends?


I'm pretty sure you can. When I was casting from the YouTube app this weekend on my Android phone or tablet (to my TV, not TiVo, but this shouldn't make a difference), it automatically created an on-the-fly "Queue" of everything I cast.


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## davefred99 (Oct 31, 2004)

Sparky1234 said:


> No longer any subscription fees on Minis. And does a reasonable Amazon streaming.


You are correct, I had forgotten that they had changed that a while back. Its been awhile since I checked on there current pricing. I do think that at $149.00 for a Mini is a bit much when any number of cheaper existing streaming devices could work just as well if not better.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> A nice thing about TiVo's YouTube app is that you can browse for clips on your tablet/phone and then cast them to the TiVo for viewing on the TV. In general, I'm not a fan of casting but it makes sense for YouTube where I am sometimes searching/browsing for one short clip after another. It's easier to do that on a (voice search-enabled) touch-screen in hand than with a TV remote, IMO.


Sorry to ask, but: how do you cast them to the TiVo (perhaps because I'm on my PC I'm not seeing that option)? Likewise as to queuing YouTube vids up.

The solution I've seen thus far has been to sign in to YouTube on both my PC and my TiVo, and to add videos I want to watch onto my YouTube "watch later" list on my PC, retrieving them from that list on my TiVo. But perhaps there's an easier way.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Sorry to ask, but: how do you cast them to the TiVo (perhaps because I'm on my PC I'm not seeing that option)? Likewise as to queuing YouTube vids up.
> 
> The solution I've seen thus far has been to sign in to YouTube on both my PC and my TiVo, and to add videos I want to watch onto my YouTube "watch later" list on my PC, retrieving them from that list on my TiVo. But perhaps there's an easier way.


I believe the casting is only available from within the YouTube mobile app, not from a PC/laptop's web browser. Same for Netflix.

If you're on a Windows 10 PC/laptop, perhaps there's a YouTube app available in the Windows Store? (edit: I'm not seeing a YouTube app available for PC/laptop version of Windows 10, nor a casting feature within the Netflix app.)


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> I believe the casting is only available from within the YouTube mobile app, not from a PC/laptop's web browser. Same for Netflix.
> 
> If you're on a Windows 10 PC/laptop, perhaps there's a YouTube app available in the Windows Store? (edit: I'm not seeing a YouTube app available for PC/laptop version of Windows 10, nor a casting feature within the Netflix app.)


You can cast YouTube from a Windows 10 PC, but you have to be using the Chrome browser. I have tested several times. While watching a Youtube video in Chrome you will see the cast button (says "Play on TV" if you role over it) in the lower right side of the video window.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> You can cast YouTube from a Windows 10 PC, but you have to be using the Chrome browser. I have tested several times. While watching a Youtube video in Chrome you will see the cast button (says "Play on TV" if you role over it) in the lower right side of the video window.


Thanks for the tip, although not working for me--there's no cast button for me (and I'm under Chrome), as far as I can tell. All I have at the bottom right of the video screen (below the screen) is the settings and screen size buttons, and nothing on the screen itself, when I roll over. I'll have to try again later.

I'm signed in under YouTube--do I also need to set a cast setting somewhere, under YouTube or on my TiVo box?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> You can cast YouTube from a Windows 10 PC, but you have to be using the Chrome browser. I have tested several times. While watching a Youtube video in Chrome you will see the cast button (says "Play on TV" if you role over it) in the lower right side of the video window.


Thanks! Totally works from Chrome on Windows 7, as well.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Mikeguy said:


> Thanks for the tip, although not working for me--there's no cast button for me (and I'm under Chrome), as far as I can tell. All I have at the bottom right of the video screen (below the screen) is the settings and screen size buttons, and nothing on the screen itself, when I roll over. I'll have to try again later.
> 
> I'm signed in under YouTube--do I also need to set a cast setting somewhere, under YouTube or on my TiVo box?


I don't remember having to do anything. I am logged in when using YouTube in Chrome, and of course it has to be able to find devices (your TiVos) on your network to cast too. When I click on the icon I get a sub menu that gives me a choose to cast to my Premiere, Roamio, Bolt, & Roku Premiere+.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> I don't remember having to do anything. I am logged in when using YouTube in Chrome, and of course it has to be able to find devices (your TiVos) on your network to cast too. When I click on the icon I get a sub menu that gives me a choose to cast to my Premiere, Roamio, Bolt, & Roku Premiere+.


That's what I'm seeing, as well. Though being logged-in doesn't appear to be a requirement.













​Trying to queue additional videos with one already playing is presenting a challenge.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> I don't remember having to do anything. I am logged in when using YouTube in Chrome, and of course it has to be able to find devices (your TiVos) on your network to cast too. When I click on the icon I get a sub menu that gives me a choose to cast to my Premiere, Roamio, Bolt, & Roku Premiere+.





krkaufman said:


> That's what I'm seeing, as well. Though being logged-in doesn't appear to be a requirement.
> 
> View attachment 30663
> View attachment 30664
> ​Trying to queue additional videos with one already playing is presenting a challenge.


Well, what do you know--it's working today! The only thing that had changed for me, I had re-booted in the meanwhile. I've found that Chrome can be glitchier for me on my Windows tablet at times, more than IE--perhaps the re-boot cleared things away.

What a nice, streamlined feature! Makes it a step easier and more enjoyable in using YouTube on a TiVo box. Cool--thanks!

Now, then, here's an idea: why not a _general_ Chrome app ability on TiVo, to cast one's browser to a TiVo box without the need for a separate Chromecast device (or a TV with that built in)? As casting works with YouTube and video's higher demands, and as the YouTube app already is there, wouldn't this be easy enough?


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## NoVa (Feb 26, 2006)

I know this is a Why TiVo now topic but I think the only thing that would push me out of a TiVo box for at least the foreseeable future is that OTT Streaming & Recording + the cable carrier broadband charge is LESS than what I am paying for cable Hi-Def TV package + TiVo.

& that so far has not calculated for me positively...but it is getting closer.


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## brentsg (Sep 19, 2004)

I've had nothing but problems with TiVo's customer service and business sides for months. As such, I'd only consider any further business if it's a $99 transfer. I know my Series 3 will be done one of these days soon.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

davefred99 said:


> You are correct, I had forgotten that they had changed that a while back. Its been awhile since I checked on there current pricing. I do think that at $149.00 for a Mini is a bit much when any number of cheaper existing streaming devices could work just as well if not better.


New min can be had for $99 about twice a year.


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## stormtech (Mar 18, 2008)

I thought my situations fits well in this thread.

I’ve been an avid Tivo user since 2008 with analog cable. I presently have a Premier unit but haven’t used it in almost a year. Since I was offered the current upgrade offer to a new Bolt I am revisiting my setup.

I’ve been streaming now exclusively. I am fortunate to have very good cable internet service here in the boonies but have zero OTA. I use Netflix ($10) Hulu commercial free ($12), and CBS commercial free ($10). I’ve been able to watch everything I want for $32 per month with no ads which I despise. And better yet I don’t have to fast forward through commercials now - just seemless viewing.

I still have my analog cable and also get 25 clear qam stations. Of course these clear qam stations do me no good at all with the Tivo. So for live TV (which is rare for me) I have 25 clear qam stations which include all the major networks.

So I called my local cable company on Monday to ask the price for digital cable TV. They want $45 per month for the first 6 months then $70 per month.

As much as I have loved my Tivo over the years it just doesn’t make financial sense to upgrade in my situation. My monthly fee would be $38 more per month plus having to put out $300 for the Tivo upgrade.

My Roku units have been trouble free and very user friendly.

So unless I am missing something in my evaluation I feel I am much better off with what I have now.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

stormtech said:


> I thought my situations fits well in this thread.
> I still have my analog cable and also get 25 clear qam stations. Of course these clear qam stations do me no good at all with the Tivo. So for live TV (which is rare for me) I have 25 clear qam stations which include all the major networks.
> So unless I am missing something in my evaluation I feel I am much better off with what I have now.


As for getting a Bolt, it will receive clear QAM but not analog. Recording will be a challenge since there will probably not be a guide to use, but manual recording should be ok. I should say you will have a guide, just that it assumes you are using a cable card.

Clear QAM on a new Bolt?


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## stormtech (Mar 18, 2008)

JoeKustra said:


> As for getting a Bolt, it will receive clear QAM but not analog. Recording will be a challenge since there will probably not be a guide to use, but manual recording should be ok. I should say you will have a guide, just that it assumes you are using a cable card.
> 
> Clear QAM on a new Bolt?


I am assuming the bolt would be just like my Premier as far as clear qam. No guide data but setting manual recordings does't bother me. But then when viewing it's just a list of manual recordings with the day and time. If I have a dozen or so recordings it is a pain to find what I am looking for.

So I just gave up on it and just use the clear qam for live TV and streaming for my favorite shows.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

stormtech said:


> I am assuming the bolt would be just like my Premier as far as clear qam. No guide data but setting manual recordings does't bother me. But then when viewing it's just a list of manual recordings with the day and time. If I have a dozen or so recordings it is a pain to find what I am looking for.
> So I just gave up on it and just use the clear qam for live TV and streaming for my favorite shows.


It's a matter of priorities. I was working back when I had a Sony DHG and 140 clear QAM channels. I never had a cable card. My "guide" was a Word document that I still maintain to this day even though I have two Roamio and one Premiere units. The Premiere doesn't have a cable card, but I can play with it. I only have one clear QAM channel now, and five analog test patterns. So I could record prime time and late night since I worked late, and the Sony was, like TiVo, able to record the channels without any change and while there was no Skip Mode, it did have a variable skip time. I don't record that much, but I would never go back to only real time TV.

There are other devices with clear QAM ability and much cheaper than a TiVo. Check out the HD Record forum on AVSForum. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-hdtv-recorders/


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## stormtech (Mar 18, 2008)

JoeKustra said:


> It's a matter of priorities. I was working back when I had a Sony DHG and 140 clear QAM channels. I never had a cable card. My "guide" was a Word document that I still maintain to this day even though I have two Roamio and one Premiere units. The Premiere doesn't have a cable card, but I can play with it. I only have one clear QAM channel now, and five analog test patterns. So I could record prime time and late night since I worked late, and the Sony was, like TiVo, able to record the channels without any change and while there was no Skip Mode, it did have a variable skip time. I don't record that much, but I would never go back to only real time TV.
> 
> There are other devices with clear QAM ability and much cheaper than a TiVo. Check out the HD Record forum on AVSForum. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-hdtv-recorders/


You are right about recording. I did make myself a nice list to convert the channel numbers from a TV guide to each corresponding clear qam number. It wouldn't be too much work to chart what each recording that is in the My Shows list. In fact my plan going forward is to record the few shows that I can't get on Hulu and CBS.

Thanks for the ava forums link - off to check it out now.


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## stormtech (Mar 18, 2008)

I wanted to add -

Actually using the Tivo the way we are talking about makes the clear qam pretty easy. After doing the channel scan I just hit “favorite” for each channel I get (25 out of probably close to 100). Using the guide in the Tivo then is easy as they are listed in numerical order and only the ones I want are listed.

So yeah - that is a distinct advantage compared to tuning to the channels manually from the TV remote.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

stormtech said:


> I wanted to add -
> Actually using the Tivo the way we are talking about makes the clear qam pretty easy. After doing the channel scan I just hit "favorite" for each channel I get (25 out of probably close to 100). Using the guide in the Tivo then is easy as they are listed in numerical order and only the ones I want are listed.
> So yeah - that is a distinct advantage compared to tuning to the channels manually from the TV remote.


I'm glad that works for you. I seldom ever use the numbers unless I want to look at an SD mirror channel or my feed's info channel. Unless you need to record "many" channels "many" days, a written guide is a simple alternative. Plus you can check zap2it for the information since it's more accurate than the TiVo guide anyhow. My Premiere is set for cable and OTA. I then go through the list after a scan and flag those I want as Favorites. Set the guide to only display Favorites and I have a second opinion on guide data. Works for me.

Even though I pay for over 200 channels (out of 420), I only have 20 favorites. That's a different thread.


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## McGehee (Jan 31, 2018)

We're down to one DVR that still works, and today it crashed for the first time in I can't remember. In the past we've bought lifetime service with our DVRs, but the new Vox DVR with lifetime can cost over $1,000.

I don't need voice recognition in a DVR, and my cable service includes a Roku app I can use to watchlist any show I want to watch. It would be a learning curve, but better than forking over that much money for a glorified VCR.


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## Karyn (Jul 19, 2017)

McGehee said:


> We're down to one DVR that still works, and today it crashed for the first time in I can't remember. In the past we've bought lifetime service with our DVRs, but the new Vox DVR with lifetime can cost over $1,000.
> 
> I don't need voice recognition in a DVR, and my cable service includes a Roku app I can use to watchlist any show I want to watch. It would be a learning curve, but better than forking over that much money for a glorified VCR.


TiVo Roamio Pro all in $399 or less including shipping and usually no tax. I'd definitely buy one again. It's awesome.

I'm not a fan of Roku (at all). I got Amazon Fire TV and love it.


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## McGehee (Jan 31, 2018)

These days you can't get all-in for less than $550.

Plus DVR purchase.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

McGehee said:


> We're down to one DVR that still works, and today it crashed for the first time in I can't remember. In the past we've bought lifetime service with our DVRs, but the new Vox DVR with lifetime can cost over $1,000


IMO Tivo overprices the Lifetime to get customers hooked on the mo. subscription. I got my 1st TiVo during the Whiteout sale when the prices were more reasonable.

Loving the Tivo SKIP.
I'm not a fan of Tivo's streaming apps - I use my Roku for that.

There is the _unsupported_ method of getting a Roamio OTA and installing an _unsupported_ cableCARD reader. (But I don't think this is a good idea as Tivo can always push out a firmware upgrade to disable the slot)

You didn't say what crashed on your Tivo. If its the HD, that's an inexpensive fix.


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## McGehee (Jan 31, 2018)

The streaming apps have had a history of crashing both our DVR and our Mini, which is one of the reasons we have Roku.

The lifetime subscriptions used to be a *whole* lot less than $550, but I guess Tivo's costs went up.

The crash was while I was watching in one room and my wife in another, both the DVR and the Mini locked up and had to be restarted. Thing is, at one time we had three working DVRs in the house, and the other two went belly-up at different times without much warning.

I wouldn't have thought an OTA would have a CableCARD slot? But no, even if it did I wouldn't think that would be a good investment unless I just happened to have an OTA lying around unused.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

By "crash" you mean you needed to reboot? I thought you had a hardware failure.


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## McGehee (Jan 31, 2018)

I said it "crashed for the first time in" a long time. Hardware failure would have been fatal the first time.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

McGehee said:


> I said it "crashed for the first time in" a long time. Hardware failure would have been fatal the first time.


Guess I was confused as you were commenting in the cost of a new Lifetime.


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## McGehee (Jan 31, 2018)

Thinking ahead.


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## Karyn (Jul 19, 2017)

McGehee said:


> These days you can't get all-in for less than $550.
> 
> Plus DVR purchase.


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## Karyn (Jul 19, 2017)

Amazon has at $404 with service included.

WeakKnees used to sell through Walmartfo $399 out the door.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01DR...roamio+ota&dpPl=1&dpID=41GK8QJvOXL&ref=plSrch


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## McGehee (Jan 31, 2018)

Used.

I already have a used one. That's the trouble.


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## Karyn (Jul 19, 2017)

McGehee said:


> Used.
> 
> I already have a used one. That's the trouble.


They're new.


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## Karyn (Jul 19, 2017)

McGehee said:


> Used.
> 
> I already have a used one. That's the trouble.


New:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01D...roamio+ota&dpPl=1&dpID=41GK8QJvOXL&ref=plSrch


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## Karyn (Jul 19, 2017)

McGehee said:


> Used.
> 
> I already have a used one. That's the trouble.


Actually, WeakKnees STILL has the Roamio OTA all in for $399.


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