# Hey DirecTV, It didn't have to be like this...



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

Ugly dish, rain fade, buying multi-switches, $900 HD TiVos and I didn't care. But no longer offering TiVo is a deal breaker. I didn't sign-up with DirecTV for you, I joined for a dual tuner TiVo. 

A FIOS installer comes tomorrow. I'll be giving it a try for 30 days. If FIOS is any good at all that will be a good enough reason not to go through your dish upgrade and loosing my HR-250's. 

I may have stayed with you due to laziness (I just rewired my house for Sat last year)but this 6.3 disaster motivated me not to care. I've had to buy 6 season finales so far this week for our Apple TV that 6.3 missed.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I just bought by first HD TV. I just switched over to FiOS phone and internet. FiOS TV won't be available for a few months.

I am reluctantly considering upgrading my DTV but I'm not willing to agree to a 24 month commitment and pay for equipment and pay extra for HD service. So far DTV isn't willing to give me a deal I can live with. Surprised DTV isn't interested in locking me in for 24 months.

I'd be willing to pay a premium for a tivo DVR but not for what DTV is offering. I can't see how the DTV HD DVR is any better than a cable or FiOS DVR. Keeping tivo would have given DTV a more unique offering. I'll give FiOS a shot.



askewed said:


> Ugly dish, rain fade, buying multi-switches, $900 HD TiVos and I didn't care. But no longer offering TiVo is a deal breaker. I didn't sign-up with DirecTV for you, I joined for a dual tuner TiVo.
> 
> A FIOS installer comes tomorrow. I'll be giving it a try for 30 days. If FIOS is any good at all that will be a good enough reason not to go through your dish upgrade and loosing my HR-250's.
> 
> I may have stayed with you due to laziness (I just rewired my house for Sat last year)but this 6.3 disaster motivated me not to care. I've had to buy 6 season finales so far this week for our Apple TV that 6.3 missed.


----------



## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

askewed said:


> I didn't sign-up with DirecTV for you, I joined for a dual tuner TiVo.


And thus one of the top reasons to get rid of Tivo and go their own way. DirecTV doesn't want customers loyal to something else other then their own products.


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

lew said:


> but I'm not willing to agree to a 24 month commitment and pay for equipment


I initially wanted to try DirecTVs new HD DVR but the commitment was the sticking point. The Retention guy tried to get it waived but he couldn't.


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> And thus one of the top reasons to get rid of Tivo and go their own way. DirecTV doesn't want customers loyal to something else other then their own products.


They may want that but that isn't what is happening. Like it or not people don't care where the signal comes from. The receiver is the only part of the system they see or use. They should have courted TiVo...


----------



## Texceo (Mar 11, 2003)

askewed said:


> Ugly dish, rain fade, buying multi-switches, $900 HD TiVos and I didn't care. But no longer offering TiVo is a deal breaker. I didn't sign-up with DirecTV for you, I joined for a dual tuner TiVo.
> 
> A FIOS installer comes tomorrow. I'll be giving it a try for 30 days. If FIOS is any good at all that will be a good enough reason not to go through your dish upgrade and loosing my HR-250's.
> 
> I may have stayed with you due to laziness (I just rewired my house for Sat last year)but this 6.3 disaster motivated me not to care. I've had to buy 6 season finales so far this week for our Apple TV that 6.3 missed.


What to send me your HR250's?

Also what Season finales did you have too buy? The only one not on the net for free was American Idol i thought!


----------



## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

askewed said:


> Ugly dish, rain fade, buying multi-switches, $900 HD TiVos and I didn't care. But no longer offering TiVo is a deal breaker. I didn't sign-up with DirecTV for you, I joined for a dual tuner TiVo.
> 
> A FIOS installer comes tomorrow. I'll be giving it a try for 30 days. If FIOS is any good at all that will be a good enough reason not to go through your dish upgrade and loosing my HR-250's.
> 
> I may have stayed with you due to laziness (I just rewired my house for Sat last year)but this 6.3 disaster motivated me not to care. I've had to buy 6 season finales so far this week for our Apple TV that 6.3 missed.


I've got the new AT9 dish. I don't really think it's ugly.

I haven't had any rain fade problems.

I've got the new HR20 HD DVR. It's not a TiVo, but who cares, not a deal breaker for me. I'd rather have the DIRECTV HD DVR than switch to COMCAST, buy a Series3 TiVo and be paying TiVo a $13/month fee just to say - I've got a TiVo DVR.

Who writes the software for the HR-250 ? TiVo ? Wouldn't it be TiVo's 6.3 disaster then ?


----------



## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

askewed said:


> They may want that but that isn't what is happening. Like it or not people don't care where the signal comes from. The receiver is the only part of the system they see or use. They should have courted TiVo...


Actually you're wrong. There has not been a great flood of people that just have to have Tivo over anything else. Content is #1 for most people and thus most are sticking with DirecTV. Remember that Tivo hasn't been available on the SD side for going on 2 years now. No great migration. And there weren't that many DirecTivo's out there and again, no great migration away from DirecTV.

And more and more you see more and more threads of people that view the new HD channels as much more important then Tivo, they try the HR20 and find that it's not that bad. Yea it's not Tivo, but it's good enough for most and better for some.

Point is that if a few thousand Tivo'ites leave DirecTV they certainly don't care. They sign up that many new subs every week.

This has been argued to death in many threads here and elsewhere. Going away from Tivo has not hurt DirecTV one bit and they are signing up more HD subs now then they ever have. Demand for the HR20 is huge. Those are the facts for ill or good. For those that just can't live without a Tivo interface do have a few options and should excercise them.


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

Texceo said:


> What to send me your HR250's?
> 
> Also what Season finales did you have too buy? The only one not on the net for free was American Idol i thought!


I'm sure they will be for sale soon.

I don't have any interest in watching TV on my computer or going to any extra effort to get said shows. When it stops being easy to watch TV I won't be watching.


----------



## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> Actually you're wrong. There has not been a great flood of people that just have to have Tivo over anything else. Content is #1 for most people and thus most are sticking with DirecTV. Remember that Tivo hasn't been available on the SD side for going on 2 years now. No great migration. And there weren't that many DirecTivo's out there and again, no great migration away from DirecTV.
> 
> And more and more you see more and more threads of people that view the new HD channels as much more important then Tivo, they try the HR20 and find that it's not that bad. Yea it's not Tivo, but it's good enough for most and better for some.
> 
> ...


Why the constant TiVo bashing while campaigning and proselytizing for the HR20? Do you own D* stock...or work for them?


----------



## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Siff, sniff*
I smell a shill.

Getting TiVo HDR112 was a great awakening. Getting DirecTiVo was great (I had 8 of them) and made me a 'fanboy'. The HR10-250 was an excellent product, while it lasted. DirecTV wants to sell/lease boxes and hinder innovation. The HR20-700 menus and interface are ugly/crude like the 1999 era DirecTV receivers that were only made tolerable by using them with TiVos...

Commitments are for companies that can no longer compete...


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> Why the constant TiVo bashing while campaigning and proselytizing for the HR20? Do you own D* stock...or work for them?


TiVo bashing?? 

He even said, "Yea it's not Tivo, but it's good enough for most and better for some."

Where's the bashing?


----------



## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> Actually you're wrong. There has not been a great flood of people that just have to have Tivo over anything else. Content is #1 for most people and thus most are sticking with DirecTV. Remember that Tivo hasn't been available on the SD side for going on 2 years now. No great migration. And there weren't that many DirecTivo's out there and again, no great migration away from DirecTV.
> 
> And more and more you see more and more threads of people that view the new HD channels as much more important then Tivo, they try the HR20 and find that it's not that bad. Yea it's not Tivo, but it's good enough for most and better for some.
> 
> ...


Except:
- DirecTV has crappy HD - they downrez their MPEG-2, and they transcode their MPEG-4. Both look lousy on a 55"+ 1080p set.

- DirecTV has *fewer* HD channels than most of their competitors, especially in major markets.

- FIOS TV has far better infrastructure and just as much, if not more capacity for HD expansion, without having to downrez or use SDV.

So if "content is king" as you say, the non-Tivo'ites will be leaving DirecTV soon, too.

DirecTV has failed on the content front, and on the technology front. They're quickly becoming the choice for the brainless consumer, and those people who, unfortunately, can't get anything else.

Nice try though.


----------



## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> - DirecTV has *fewer* HD channels than most of their competitors, especially in major markets.


More channels does not necessarily mean better content, there are some channels, HD or not I have no interest in whatsoever.

Not taking sides, just saying.


----------



## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

drew2k said:


> TiVo bashing??
> 
> He even said, "Yea it's not Tivo, but it's good enough for most and better for some."
> 
> Where's the bashing?


I thought it was pretty obvious that I wasn't referring specifically to _that _ post ...bonscott has come across as the 'anti-TiVo' for quite some time now, and I really don't understand why.

I love my HR10's, and my HR20 has been somewhat less than adequate (although slowly improving). If it ever does what it's supossed to do, and do it _reliably_ ...I'll be more than happy to sing its' praises (and replace my other units).

But until that time, I find it somewhat offensive that D* released a unit that was not ready for primetime, and took the opportunity to use its' customers as beta testers _without_ their knowledge (while locking them in to another 2 years).

My opinion.


----------



## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sorry, not anti Tivo at all. Heck, I still have 2 of them going strong and don't plan on replacing them anytime soon. Why? They work just fine.

Why all the *non* Tivo hate?

I was simply responding to a post that stated that the world of DirecTV was coming to an end because of no Tivo and that's just not the case. Simple as that.


----------



## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

AbMagFab said:


> Except:
> - DirecTV has crappy HD - they downrez their MPEG-2, and they transcode their MPEG-4. Both look lousy on a 55"+ 1080p set.
> 
> - DirecTV has *fewer* HD channels than most of their competitors, especially in major markets.
> ...


Hey, FIOS sounds great. If you have the option, and very few people do, by all means. If FIOS was around here I'd be looking at it too.

As for your statements on HD channels, not sure you are aware but a new sat goes up in a month. DirecTV will have 75-100 HD channels by year's end. Competition is good. It's very good.


----------



## Release (May 9, 2007)

We just got FIOS and the _sole_ reason for dumping DTV was the DVR they offered vs. the Series 3. No other reason. Sure, they both _do_ the same thing but one is elegant and close to perfect and the other is a pain in the a** to use.

And you know what? We made the right decision.


----------



## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> Sorry, not anti Tivo at all. Heck, I still have 2 of them going strong and don't plan on replacing them anytime soon. Why? They work just fine.
> 
> Why all the *non* Tivo hate?
> 
> I was simply responding to a post that stated that the world of DirecTV was coming to an end because of no Tivo and that's just not the case. Simple as that.


Not *non* TiVo hate lol, just want what I'm paying for to work properly, with the most minimal of hassles. HR20 hasn't been kind to me in that respect, and I resent all the phone calls and double-talk involving D* and their new DVR.

I don't appreciate being a D* guinea pig; they should be paying _me_ for all I've been put through with their damn box(es) over the last 6+ months. Live and learn, I guess...


----------



## bullitt (Feb 13, 2002)

askewed said:


> Ugly dish, rain fade, buying multi-switches, $900 HD TiVos and I didn't care. But no longer offering TiVo is a deal breaker. I didn't sign-up with DirecTV for you, I joined for a dual tuner TiVo.
> 
> A FIOS installer comes tomorrow. I'll be giving it a try for 30 days. If FIOS is any good at all that will be a good enough reason not to go through your dish upgrade and loosing my HR-250's.
> 
> I may have stayed with you due to laziness (I just rewired my house for Sat last year)but this 6.3 disaster motivated me not to care. I've had to buy 6 season finales so far this week for our Apple TV that 6.3 missed.


I agree with you, I stayed with DTV because of Tivo and now I have no reason.
I'm contemplating a move also, lost my Tivo HR10-250 to 6.3d and they sent me an HR20. So far not in love with it and I to had to spend over $20 on deleted or stuttering episodes and a few Season Finales. I'm considering Cable but what's FIOS?


----------



## bullitt (Feb 13, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> Actually you're wrong. There has not been a great flood of people that just have to have Tivo over anything else. Content is #1 for most people and thus most are sticking with DirecTV.
> And more and more you see more and more threads of people that view the new HD channels as much more important then Tivo, they try the HR20 and find that it's not that bad. Yea it's not Tivo, but it's good enough for most and better for some.


And you really believe you will see 150 *unique* HD channels by September  . Well, I've got some land in Florida to sell you. Seriously, they've been dangling that BS Carrot since 2004  and today it was announced there would be a delay in launching one of those satellites.
By the way, the reason they're in no hurry to offer more HD is because they keep signing up more suckers who like you believe DTv is interested in you as a customer.

Yes, you are correct, Content is #1 but when was the last time they've added a channel that shows anything but crappy old TV shows (Sleuth, Chiller). Why can't we get the full HBO, SHO, MAX Menu or why can't we get on-demand channels or god forbid a reasonable selection of PPV in HD w 5.1 Sound.  What content are you expecting? Chiller in HD, Food Network in HD, Home Shopping in HD, CSPAN in HD, or maybe the Poker channel in HD etc.  
And what about the current mix of HD, Old movies that have been regurgitated ad nauseum, old canceled TV shows that should be on 3AM and of course that compelling Bikini show that can keep your attention for at least 45 seconds.


----------



## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

I haven't looked or posted in sometime on this sub board. Nice to see that the in fighting is still going on.


Oh an update. I was using Tivo SA Series 2 boxes to get me by until Sir Rupert had left the building and the Liberty management team and direction was in place at DTV, but the $200 rebate on an S3 got me. The S3 arrives tomorrow. I had been slowly moving my televison signal to Comcast (no two year committment there) and I'm happy I did. The TivoCAST, Amazon Downloads, KidsZone, etc are GRRREATTTT!.

You all enjoy yourselves here. 

Bonanza


----------



## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> Yea it's not TiVo, but it's good enough for most and better for some.


There's a ringing endorsement if I've ever heard one. Is that like "It's not a BMW, but it will get you there" when referring to a Yaris.

I've decided to run out the life in my HR10-250, after that odds are I'll go elsewhere. I have no desire for most of those 150 channels D is proclaiming. I might maintain one receiver with a very limited package for my dad who loves his old westerns and RFD TV, which I doubt is available on cable, but I really don't want something that's just "good enough"


----------



## bryanb (Oct 26, 2001)

The 2 year commitment is what killed it for me in the end. I was willing to check out the HR20, but not if it meant a 2 year contract.

The timing of a great offer from Cox and the $200 rebate on the series 3 made it too hard for me to stay with DirecTV.

Ultimately though, we are just a small crowd compared to the numbers these companies deal with.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bullitt said:


> And you really believe you will see 150 *unique* HD channels by September  . Well, I've got some land in Florida to sell you. Seriously, they've been dangling that BS Carrot since 2004  and today it was announced there would be a delay in launching one of those satellites.
> By the way, the reason they're in no hurry to offer more HD is because they keep signing up more suckers who like you believe DTv is interested in you as a customer.
> 
> Yes, you are correct, Content is #1 but when was the last time they've added a channel that shows anything but crappy old TV shows (Sleuth, Chiller). Why can't we get the full HBO, SHO, MAX Menu or why can't we get on-demand channels or god forbid a reasonable selection of PPV in HD w 5.1 Sound.  What content are you expecting? Chiller in HD, Food Network in HD, Home Shopping in HD, CSPAN in HD, or maybe the Poker channel in HD etc.
> And what about the current mix of HD, Old movies that have been regurgitated ad nauseum, old canceled TV shows that should be on 3AM and of course that compelling Bikini show that can keep your attention for at least 45 seconds.


Other than the fact that this would make you one of the original minutemen (45 seconds? That must impress the ladies. Sounds like you could come on a card trick ), I really can't disagree with you at all. In fact, these are great arguments I wished I had thought of.

Content is king, but its surprising how content could be an argument as to why people might have stayed with DTV, as their content, especially HD content, is just pitiful (and PQ? Don't get me started). The argument that people MIGRATED TO DTV due to the DirecTivo and STAYED THERE due to the HR10 is at least as cogent an argument. That's certainly the only reason I left DISH and the only reason I stayed here this long. Once my HR10's go **** up, I'm outa here.

Content is certainly important, but having a user-friendly platform that is expandable and reliable is also pretty important (and I'm not about to ever download some lame-ass less-than-SD-PQ finale even if I _could_ port it to my 60" Sony). I'd go to FIOS in a minute (maybe in only 45 seconds) if I could get a series 3. Only die-hard NFL-ers (not everybody is, BTW) could buy the "Content is king--long live DTV" argument.

And the new "150 channel straight talk" ad DTV is running really chaps my ass, as it seems to be bordering on making illegal claims. It purports to DTV having 150 HD channels right now . The only way that would be possible is to have separate subscriptions in 35 different cities at the same time, which would still only give them a grand total of about 9 channels with unique HD programming. Until the big 20 cable nets go HD, I don't care how many HD channels DTV launches. We need FX, USA, SCIFI, not more badly-upconverted SD of fat f**ks playing poker.


----------



## Hersheytx (Feb 15, 2003)

Release said:


> We just got FIOS and the _sole_ reason for dumping DTV was the DVR they offered vs. the Series 3. No other reason. Sure, they both _do_ the same thing but one is elegant and close to perfect and the other is a pain in the a** to use.
> 
> And you know what? We made the right decision.


FOIS DVR is not better then Directv HDDVR. Sorry to inform you, but its not even close to be up to anything in this decade.
In fact I would say Verizon is trying like mad to get something out there better then what they have now. Its a sorry excuse for a DVR. Plus very little room to record HD. 
So until FOIS can deliver almost anywhere in the U.S of A. I think DIrectv is a better alternative. And the HD DVR is light years better then everything the competition has at this time. It would be nice to see a new HD (MPEG4) Tivo DVR, but I can live without it.


----------



## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

bullitt said:


> And you really believe you will see 150 *unique* HD channels by September  .


Ummm, of course not. I personally expect maybe 50 but heck I'd be happy with 10.

You must not be keeping up with the list of announced channels though.

*Available Now:*

Discovery HD Theater
ESPN
ESPN2
HBO
HD NET
HD NET Movies
Showtime
TNT
Universal

HD Pay-Per-View

Depending on service area and equipment:

ABC
CBS
NBC
FOX
CW
MY Network TV

Local Regional Sports Network

*Coming in September:*

A&E
Animal Planet
CineMax
Discovery Channel (simulcast)
Food Network
HGTV
History Channel
MHD (MTV)
NFL Network (Full-Time)
Science Channel
Showtime West
Starz! East
Starz! West
Starz! Edge
Starz! Comedy
Starz Kids & Family
The Movie Channel
The National Geographic Channel
TLC
The Weather Channel
Versus/Golf

*Fall 2007:*

Big Ten Network
Bravo
Cartoon
Chiller
CNBC
CNN
FX
Sci-Fi
Sleuth
Speed
TBS
USA

*21 Regional Sports Networks:*

Blackout Rules still apply!

Altitude
Comcast SportsNet Chicago
Comcast SportsNet Mid-Atlantic 
FSN Arizona 
FSN Bay Area 
FSN Detroit 
FSN Florida 
FSN New England 
FSN North 
FSN Northwest 
FSN Ohio 
FSN Prime Ticket 
FSN Rocky Mountain 
FSN South 
FSN Southwest 
FSN West 
New England Sports Network
SportsNet New York
SportsSouth
Sun Sports
YES

*December 2007:*

The Tennis Channel

*Spring 2008*

Disney Channel
Toon Disney
ABC Family
ESPN News
MGM

*2008:*
All MLB games produced in HD

Hey, if those channels don't interest you, well, they are the same channels any other provider will add...if they can. Whatever.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

FiOS customers have the option of using a series 3 tivo. Customers that were able to transfer lifetime subscriptions have a good deal.

I don't understand the part of your post I "bolded". A customer who can subscribe to FiOS doesn't really care about the parts of the country that can't.

Many of us switched to DTV for better pricing, more extensive channel offering and a tivo DVR. FiOS and digital cable can have better pricing (patricularly with internet/voice bundle pricing) offers just as many channels and offers DVRs that aren't substanatially better then DTV.



Hersheytx said:


> FOIS DVR is not better then Directv HDDVR. Sorry to inform you, but its not even close to be up to anything in this decade.
> In fact I would say Verizon is trying like mad to get something out there better then what they have now. Its a sorry excuse for a DVR. Plus very little room to record HD.
> *So until FOIS can deliver almost anywhere in the U.S of A. I think DIrectv is a better alternative*. And the HD DVR is light years better then everything the competition has at this time. It would be nice to see a new HD (MPEG4) Tivo DVR, but I can live without it.


----------



## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

bullitt said:


> Seriously, they've been dangling that BS Carrot since 2004  and today it was announced there would be a delay in launching one of those satellites.
> By the way, the reason they're in no hurry to offer more HD is because they keep signing up more suckers who like you believe DTv is interested in you as a customer.


And what Carrot? They announced 3 years ago they didn't have any bandwidth to add more channels and announced a plan to take care of it. Now that plan has come to near the end. Everyone has known this plan. If there were better options in the meantime it's pretty easy to make a call and switch to something else.

And why would I think D* is interested in me as a customer? They aren't. No company is. We are just $$ to them. I certainly don't think any different. Every year I do the math and check my options to see if I should switch or stay. Every year (so far) DirecTV has the best content for the $$, in my situation. Most of that is because Charter sucks, FIOS will never be here (heck Verizon doesn't even sell cell phone service here) and AT&T Uverse is a joke (only 1 HD stream at a time? Puhhhlease...also not available, can't even get DSL where I'm at and I'm in the middle of the freaking city).

So for *me*, DirecTV is better. And I don't care what the UI of the DVR is. 
Is that so wrong? 
Is that so evil? 
OH my god Tivo might not be the end all by all?
Amazing.



> Yes, you are correct, Content is #1 but when was the last time they've added a channel that shows anything but crappy old TV shows (Sleuth, Chiller). Why can't we get the full HBO, SHO, MAX Menu or why can't we get on-demand channels or god forbid a reasonable selection of PPV in HD w 5.1 Sound.  What content are you expecting? Chiller in HD, Food Network in HD, Home Shopping in HD, CSPAN in HD, or maybe the Poker channel in HD etc.
> And what about the current mix of HD, Old movies that have been regurgitated ad nauseum, old canceled TV shows that should be on 3AM and of course that compelling Bikini show that can keep your attention for at least 45 seconds.


What content is #1 is all different to everyone. For me, Sunday Ticket is #1 unless it gets too expensive. Why don't they have the channels you speak of? Already been explained, no room. IF 8 more channels of Max is #1 on your list then why are you with DirecTV? Dish would be a better choice or maybe your local cable company if they offer it.

As for the new HD channels, not that I need to explain what content is important to me, I am really only interested in 2 of them: Sci Fi HD and my local RSN in HD. More movies channels in HD would be nice too. After that I really don't care if they added 300 HD channels, I probably won't watch them just like I don't watch 98% of the SD channels. Give me those small handfull of channels and I'm happy as punch.

I just don't get it. Honestly.

To everyone. If DirecTV sucks for you (whether that be in content or the fact of no Tivo) then freaking leave. 
Done. 
Tivo's not coming back. That car left the garage a looooong time ago. Get over it. Make your move to another provider because DirecTV obviously isn't offering you what you need. And just because you are in a commitment doesn't mean squat. Cable companies will fall all over each other to pay off your commitment and get you to switch.

There is no excuse.

None.

And with that, have a great weekend!


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I agree, the chance of DTV bringing tivo back is near zero.

That doesn't mean posters don't have a right to comment on the switch, to wonder if DTV made a mistake.

DTV has one unique offering, NFL. Dual tuner tivo DVR was unique, now most cable systems offer a dual tuner DVR. Having multiple channels (premium channels-East and West coast feeds etc) used to be unique now digital cable and FiOS offers the same channels.

Customers used to go to DTV because they didn't have options, cable systems didn't offer as many channels or DVRs. DTV lost those advantages.



bonscott87 said:


> What content is #1 is all different to everyone. For me, Sunday Ticket is #1 unless it gets too expensive. Why don't they have the channels you speak of? Already been explained, no room. IF 8 more channels of Max is #1 on your list then why are you with DirecTV? Dish would be a better choice or maybe your local cable company if they offer it.
> .......
> Tivo's not coming back. That car left the garage a looooong time ago. Get over it. Make your move to another provider because DirecTV obviously isn't offering you what you need. And just because you are in a commitment doesn't mean squat. Cable companies will fall all over each other to pay off your commitment and get you to switch.
> 
> ...


----------



## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

lew said:


> I agree, the chance of DTV bringing tivo back is near zero.
> 
> That doesn't mean posters don't have a right to comment on the switch, to wonder if DTV made a mistake.
> 
> ...


What's funny about comments like the op is they make it seem that DTV is losing a bunch of customers over TiVo. The reality is they have lost very few customers by going with their own DVR and they have increased their revenue. In fact their churn has gone down not up. With the exception of a few people like the OP most people don't care who makes their DVR. Financially speaking DirecTV clearly made the correct decision even though it sucks for us TiVo afficianados.

Personally there are things I like better about the HR20 and things that are clearly worse but it works for what I need. There is no way it is worth it to me to spend $800 plus $12 a month for service when I can get the HR20 for free and pay only $5/month for all 3 of my DVRs. Now some people like to drive BMWs but I drive a Civic because it gets me where I want to go for much less $$$. That said if FIOS were available to me I would seriously consider it but for now I will remain with DirecTV.


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

bigpuma said:


> What's funny about comments like the op is they make it seem that DTV is losing a bunch of customers over TiVo. The reality is they have lost very few...


I'm the original poster and I don't see where I represented any customers but myself. And for the record DTV is losing me soley over the TiVo issue.

While I'm responding I'd also love to know how you are in possession of DTV's "reality"...


----------



## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

askewed said:


> While I'm responding I'd also love to know how you are in possession of DTV's "reality"...


All the things he stated (churn is lower, revenue is higher, subs increase, HD subs *really* increased, HR20 is a hot seller, etc.) was all spelled out in the recent DirecTV finacial calls. You can download and listen to them yourself from Yahoo! Finance or from DirecTV themselves in the investor section.

Transcripts are also available and heavily discussed at DBSTalk or Satguys. Didn't get much press here since that kind of talk seems to be poo-pood at TCF now.

Thus the reality is that losing Tivo has not hurt DirecTV at all. Yes a few will leave. But more sign up every day. 
No big deal, everyone has to make a choice that's right for them. Competition is good for everyone.

As one poster said above: $5 a month for all the DVRs I want or $800 each plus $13 a month each. 
I don't have that kind of money to spend just on a UI, thus S3 Tivo isn't a choice for me (plus Charter and working cable cards is...well....laughable).

If Tivo is that important to you and you have that kind of money to spend then more power to you, congrats, and be happy. For the money I save on not getting a S3 I can pay for Sunday Ticket and a bunch of movie channels.  Again, just me and my perspective on it.

We all need to check the pros and cons and make a choice. That choice may be different for every person..


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bullitt said:


> And you really believe you will see 150 *unique* HD channels by September .


Bonscott already responded, but I do want to point out DirecTV didn't promise 150 unique HD chanels, nor did they promise 150 HD channels, nor did they promise by September. They are advertising they will have capacity for 150 national HD channels this year. Period.

I fully expect to see 75 national HD channels on DirecTV by the end of the year, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that at least 50 will be available in September.


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> If Tivo is that important to you and you have that kind of money to spend then more power to you, congrats, and be happy.


Let's say I have said funds... Do I loose any functionality by not using FIOS gear? Installer is here now...


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

You can buy a series 3 tivo for $400 after rebate. DTV is charging $300 for the HR-20.

I agree with your point, most customers are going to go with price and take the free DVR being given out by their local cable system.



bonscott87 said:


> As one poster said above: $5 a month for all the DVRs I want or $800 each plus $13 a month each.
> I don't have that kind of money to spend just on a UI, thus S3 Tivo isn't a choice for me (plus Charter and working cable cards is...well....laughable).
> 
> If Tivo is that important to you and you have that kind of money to spend then more power to you, congrats, and be happy. For the money I save on not getting a S3 I can pay for Sunday Ticket and a bunch of movie channels.  Again, just me and my perspective on it.
> ...


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

FIOS guy is gone. PQ is fine as is sound. First Impression on the UI: It can only be okay to people that have never used TiVo. I'll wait until 2.0 to be released this summer to decide about a series 3 TiVo. Thanks for all of your input.


EDIT: Well the installer has been gone for an hour and the thing isn't working. When you pause something you can't un-pause it...


----------



## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

lew said:


> You can buy a series 3 tivo for $400 after rebate. DTV is charging $300 for the HR-20.
> 
> I agree with your point, most customers are going to go with price and take the free DVR being given out by their local cable system.


Yep.

FYI that most customers can get it for $199 and if you have a Tivo already, especially an HR10 it's free to $99 at most. I can log on to my account right now and go to the Upgrade Equipment section and get an HR20 for $199. So that would be my starting point on any negotiation when calling.


----------



## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

bigpuma said:


> What's funny about comments like the op is they make it seem that DTV is losing a bunch of customers over TiVo.


They _have_ lost customers because of this, and they will continue to lose customers. It's a pretty large number (based only on the number of people I personally know who've dropped DTV), but still statistically insignificant given millions of subscribers. (And there are *alot* more dtivo's out there than you might think -- I'm one subscriber, but have *4* dtivo's.) DirecTV does not talk in specifics about their subscriber numbers - PERIOD. You will never get them to tell you the truth about how many customers have left while giving "lack of tivo" as a reason.



> Financially speaking DirecTV clearly made the correct decision even though it sucks for us TiVo afficianados.


I don't know about that. Making and supporting their own receivers is a lot more expensive than having hardware manufacturers license the DSS technology and sell their own receivers. (which is how it was in The Beginning.) Ultimately, their agreement with Tivo, Inc. was _cheap_ -- $1 of the $5 DVR service fee. I think it was Tivo that set that bridge on fire by demanding their part of the fee for HR20 deployments. (DTV being greedy didn't help matters.) But no one is telling the story of what went on behind the conference room doors.

There was a time when DTV's picture _was_ better than cable... certainly better than analog cable, and much better than first generation digital cable -- digitizing a crappy analog signal isn't going to magicly make it better. However, today DTV has robbed so much bandwidth away from SD channels in it's lust for HD channels that it looks worse than 1970's era rabbit-ear-TV. Analog cable (through a cable modem trap) looks better *sigh* Both have laughable HD lineups, but TW/Raleigh edges ahead by having east and west coast HBO and Showtime. As I said in the S3 forum (repeatedly), if you want the broadest selection of HD, DISH is the only answer. (and they've never had a tivo -- the 622 is ok, but annoyingly different)


----------



## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Yep.
> 
> FYI that most customers can get it for $199 and if you have a Tivo already, especially an HR10 it's free to $99 at most. * I can log on to my account right now and go to the Upgrade Equipment section and get an HR20 for $199. So that would be my starting point on any negotiation when calling.*


That's what I did, installer will be here tomorrow.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

cramer said:


> They _have_ lost customers because of this, and they will continue to lose customers. It's a pretty large number (based only on the number of people I personally know who've dropped DTV), but still statistically insignificant given millions of subscribers...


Of course they have. As much as some people don't want to hear it, Tivo is really that good, and there are legions of loyal Tivo owners to support that, including many on this forum. It is rare for hardware/OS to be so beloved that it drives these kind of decisions, but Tivo is that kind of hardware/OS. Apple computers are another example of that sort of cult devotion, and in both cases, its not by accident, people love Tivo (and the Mac OS) for a very good reason. DTV will lose me pretty soon, too. And there is only one reason, no Tivo support.

Stating that folks have not abandoned DTV because DTV abandoned Tivo is just a ludicrous premise. Of course they have, I'm looking at two of them right now. The numbers might not be significant, but it's still a fact. This premise undermines the credibility of all other statements made by those folks, sad to say.

And let's imagine the reverse situation. How many folks learned that DTV would be abandoning Tivo and said "Oh goody! Now I have a reason to sign up with DTV!"? Probably not a single one.


----------



## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> Stating that folks have not abandoned DTV because DTV abandoned Tivo is just a ludicrous premise. Of course they have, I'm looking at two of them right now. The numbers might not be significant, but it's still a fact. This premise undermines the credibility of all other statements made by those folks, sad to say.


I never state such a thing. You said it yourself, "the numbers might not be significant". That's the fact. Let's say for arguments sake it's a high number, say 50,000. Heck let's go hog wild and say 100,000.

Big deal.

They sign up that many new subs in a month. That's the point many are trying to make. Yes, there are some people that will leave because of no Tivo. But it won't hurt DirecTV and won't make a difference. It just doesn't. Not when they have 16.5 million subs and add nearly a million more every year. For you to believe otherwise is just burying your head in the sand.


----------



## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Since D* is never forthcoming with their numbers (_ever_), how is it that anyone can make any such statement and be accurate in their assessment?


----------



## watchdogfl (Dec 21, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> I never state such a thing. You said it yourself, "the numbers might not be significant". That's the fact. Let's say for arguments sake it's a high number, say 50,000. Heck let's go hog wild and say 100,000.
> 
> Big deal.
> 
> They sign up that many new subs in a month. That's the point many are trying to make. Yes, there are some people that will leave because of no Tivo. But it won't hurt DirecTV and won't make a difference. It just doesn't. Not when they have 16.5 million subs and add nearly a million more every year. For you to believe otherwise is just burying your head in the sand.


Bon makes some very good points. Although I normally stay out of firefights, I am one of those who left DirecTV. But it was for a combination of 2 reasons. First was the Tivo decision... which has been debated here to no end. But the second is the insistence by Directv on a 2 year contract. Yes, churn rate is down... because DirecTV is locking subscribers into contracts. The cable companies used this tactic when it saw the impending churn of customers to DirecTV... they failed in the end. DTV has done the same analysis of the current situation... and we are seeing the result of a management mindset that anti-customer and chooses control of everything over what's best for the customer.... a strategy that, IMHO, will fail in 2-3 years if not changed now.

When I was cancelling my contract, I made it a point to have the rep note in my file that I was leaving b/c of the Tivo decision and the requirement of contracts. We talked for almost 15 minutes b/c of a slow computer systems and he came clean, stating that I was the 5th customer that day, and one of several dozen that month, to leave b/c of the same two issues.

Will several dozen customers leaving hurt DTV? No... but the fact is that customer's like myself, and those on this forum, are a represantive sample of bleeding edge consumers. The "fattest wallets" and most sought after consumers in technology b/c of our willingness to spend on the high end and be loyal. Thus my 10 years of maxed out service with DTV prior to leaving.

I think DTV would be playing the ostritch if it didn't heed the warning signs. Consumers will reach equivalent levels of saviness in a year or two. Cable providers will catch up on HD coverage (they already have better HD quality). In the end, presentation of the content, not the content, is what will win. That is not to say that DTV must take back the Tivo to win. But, they must greatly enhance their DVR software and user experience. Not to mention their customer treatment.

In the end, I left because, where in the past I felt DirecTV gave me choice and freedom, I saw a shift towards greed, anti-customer policies, and a diminishing set of choices when it came to hardware. In short, I saw DirecTV morphing into the cable companies of the 80's and 90's.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> Since D* is never forthcoming with their numbers (_ever_), how is it that anyone can make any such statement and be accurate in their assessment?


Huh?

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070509/20070509005529.html?.v=1

Now try this Google search: "directv new subscribers financial". You'll get hits going back to 2001 showing subscriber numbers.


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> Let's say for arguments sake it's a high number, say 50,000. Heck let's go hog wild and say 100,000.
> 
> Big deal.


Don't forget that I'm the "guy" in my life that people follow regarding computer/electronics/TV decisions. If you loose my business you loose business in no less then 10 other households. That still doesn't make the number huge but it is a factor.

&

Consider this. Say my resturant serves the best steak in town and has 300 regulars. We are a little pricey because of the quality of our meat. One day I realize that if I skimp on the steak I can lower the prices a bit and more people will come and eat at my place. I do it but in doing so I loose my original 300 customers who have come to expect the best from me. The 500 customers I gain are less discerning and have never had the original quality meat so they no not what the are missing.

On paper I win. But in reality I 'm serving crappy steak to a unknowing customer base. Eventually someone will open another joint, serve better food and I'll wither slowly.

The TiVo UI is worth the money even thought many people don't know it. The one thing we've all said about TiVo still holds true. "Once you've used it you know why it costs more... and you don't care". We have a neighbor the raves about her DVR (DTV) for months it's all she talked about. She sat with my kids one day for a few hours and now when she talks about it she always says she likes it but that she wishes she had TiVo.

FIOS and the new HD DTV DVRs are all much better then my VCR was but that doesn't make them steak it makes them not hamburger.


----------



## fastep (May 22, 2004)

Hersheytx said:


> FOIS DVR is not better then Directv HDDVR. Sorry to inform you, but its not even close to be up to anything in this decade.
> In fact I would say Verizon is trying like mad to get something out there better then what they have now. Its a sorry excuse for a DVR. Plus very little room to record HD.
> So until FOIS can deliver almost anywhere in the U.S of A. I think DIrectv is a better alternative. And the HD DVR is light years better then everything the competition has at this time. It would be nice to see a new HD (MPEG4) Tivo DVR, but I can live without it.


What's wrong with the fios dvr? It is extremely fast, reliable, easy to use, has dual tuners, has customizable series recordings, has a 30 second skip, multiple ff speeds, and has many search parameters including a key word search.

Other than having a 160gb hdd and not offering a tuner swap, I think it is as good (if not better) than any hd dvr on the market. The best part about the fios dvr is you get a brand new one at installation and it doesn't cost a penny. And if it ever craps out you can get a free replacement without having to purchase a warranty.

In addition, with the latest triple play deal, fios not only delivers stunning hd in full resolution and allows users to use cablecard devices but also saves you more money per month than any other hd provider for all three services.

If you think D* is a better alternative to fios (for those who can get it) you have not recently tryed it. Take it from me, I went from D* to C* to F* and IMHO Fios is the future. I only hope they don't mess with picture resolution as more channels become available. Right now fios is as close to perfect as you can get.


----------



## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

drew2k said:


> Huh?
> 
> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070509/20070509005529.html?.v=1
> 
> Now try this Google search: "directv new subscribers financial". You'll get hits going back to 2001 showing subscriber numbers.


Is it me ...am I too nebulous in my coments? 

D* does not release _specific_ numbers about subscribers ...how many have left, how many are specifically DVR, etc.

Since this was the current topic of the discussion I thought that was pretty obvious.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> Is it me ...am I too nebulous in my coments?
> 
> D* does not release _specific_ numbers about subscribers ...how many have left, how many are specifically DVR, etc.
> 
> Since this was the current topic of the discussion I thought that was pretty obvious.


Yes, you were too "nebulous". 

*Last statement from bonscott87:* Not when they have 16.5 million subs and add nearly a million more every year. For you to believe otherwise is just burying your head in the sand.

*You're response:* Since D* is never forthcoming with their numbers (ever) ...

My response had links pointing out how many new subs DirecTV was reporting. This whole thread is about DirecTV "losing" customers because it no longer offers TiVo, so the discussion of how many "new" subs DirecTV gains is germaine to the conversation. If you were specifically talking about how many DirecTV has "left" ... what's the point? Besides, those numbers are most likely ALSO available ... In fact, it's in the same article I linked to above.



> The total number of DIRECTV U.S. subscribers as of March 31, 2007 was 16.19 million, an increase of 5% over the 15.39 million subscribers reported on March 31, 2006.


As to how many new subscribers have DVR, etc., I'm sure those numbers are also available, probably in SEC filings where DirecTV takes charges for new subscriber acquisitions against subsidies for equipment. In other words, the numbers are available if you just try to find them ...


----------



## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

drew2k said:


> As to how many new subscribers have DVR, etc., I'm sure those numbers are also available, probably in SEC filings where DirecTV takes charges for new subscriber acquisitions against subsidies for equipment. In other words, the numbers are available if you just try to find them ...


 I did not quote bonscotts post, and was not referring to overall subs.



drew2k said:


> Yes, you were too "nebulous".
> 
> My response had links pointing out how many new subs DirecTV was reporting. This whole thread is about DirecTV "losing" customers because it no longer offers TiVo, so the discussion of how many "new" subs DirecTV gains is germaine to the conversation. If you were specifically talking about how many DirecTV has "left" ... what's the point? Besides, those numbers are most likely ALSO available ... In fact, it's in the same article I linked to above.


"New subs" aren't the equivalent to "DVR subs," and therefore aren't germaine.

We were discussing the abandonment of TiVo, and how many HR10 folks might have left D* because TiVo is no longer being supported.

_D* does not list specifics_, I cannot make it any more clear than that. The numbers are not available ...D* does not _make them _ available. If you want to take the time to look through their 10K to find that I'm correct, be my guest.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> Are you _intentionally_ missing the point? I did not quote bonscotts post, and was not referring to overall subs.
> 
> We were discussing the abandonment of TiVo, and how many HR10 folks might have left D* because TiVo is no longer being supported.
> 
> _D* does not list specifics_, I cannot make it any more clear than that. The numbers are not available ...D* does not _make them _ available. If you want to take the time to look through their 10K to find that I'm correct, be my guest.


Funny, I thought the discussion was about DirecTV losing customers because of TiVo, which is irrelevant when the new subscriber numbers are examined. Past filings have shown how many DirecTV subs had TiVo DVRs. Simple math can be used to determine the total number of subs with TiVo. Now compare this to the total number of new subs gained. If you assume all TiVo subs leave en masse, how long would it take for their numbers to be replaced at the current rate of new subscribers?

By the way, I'm curious to know who you had in mind when you wrote, "how is it that anyone can make any such statement and be accurate in their assessment"? "any such statement" indicates you had something in mind.


----------



## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

drew2k said:


> Funny, I thought the discussion was about DirecTV losing customers because of TiVo, which is irrelevant when the new subscriber numbers are examined.


So then, why are we discussing it at length?



drew2k said:


> Past filings have shown how many DirecTV subs had TiVo DVRs. Simple math can be used to determine the total number of subs with TiVo.


Really? I'd like to see the "simple math" breakdown. Give us a simple idea of: total number of DVR's, and how many are HR10's/HR20's, along with how many have been cancelled.



drew2k said:


> By the way, I'm curious to know who you had in mind when you wrote, "how is it that anyone can make any such statement and be accurate in their assessment"? "any such statement" indicates you had something in mind.


Yes, I had something in mind; any such statement involving D* DVR subs, churn, and _accuracy._ Whether one finds it insignificant or not because a greater number of subs were signed up (than those that cancelled service) is besides the point.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Sorry, winealot, the burden's on you. Your contention is that DirecTV doesn't provide ample numbers. I have shown they do. Have at it - and have fun making whatever point you want.


----------



## jheydt (Dec 24, 2001)

I have had tivo and d* for at least 5 years. Have always been happy with both. Because of the NFL I will retain d*. However, a few months ago I purchased a 27" hd tv for the bedroom and decided to get the d* hd pvr as well as a new hd dish. Since I have had tivo for a few years I am familiar with the functions of a recorder so it was no big deal to get used the the d* recorder. I have had this unit for a month now and except for an occasional stutter and one show which was ended prematurely I have been happy with this unit. A couple of things which I don't like about it is when you stop fast forwarding it automatically does not go back a few seconds like tivo. Also when you are looking at the listing of shows you will record or have recorded you cannot use the down channel key to read the info about the show but must exit out, scroll down and then select again. What kind of gets me is that I paid $199 for this recorder but in fact I don't own the unit. It's like leasing a car. 

Just wanted to throw my experiences in.

John


----------



## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

drew2k said:


> Sorry, winealot, the burden's on you. *Your contention is that DirecTV doesn't provide ample numbers.* I have shown they do. Have at it - and have fun making whatever point you want.


Comprehension is your friend. :sigh: My 'contention' was that D* doesn't provide specific numbers on their DVR subs, and churn. You seem to think that overall subscription numbers tells the story, and it does not.

LoL.... I'll go dig through that 10K and _not find_ those "simple math" DVR numbers, and then post the results here.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

jheydt said:


> What kind of gets me is that I paid $199 for this recorder but in fact I don't own the unit. It's like leasing a car.


Unfortunately, the big difference is that with a car lease there's a fixed term and at the end of that term you have the option of purchasing the car. With the HR20, there's no term, and if you stop being a DirecTV customer, you have to give back the HR20.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> Comprehension is your friend. :sigh: My 'contention' was that D* doesn't provide specific numbers on their DVR subs, and churn.


Pot, meet kettle, and :sigh: back at ya, because they DO provide those numbers.


----------



## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

askewed said:


> Consider this. Say my resturant serves the best steak in town and has 300 regulars.
> ...
> On paper I win. But in reality I 'm serving crappy steak to a unknowing customer base. Eventually someone will open another joint, serve better food and I'll wither slowly.


Funny you should mention that. That is exactly what happened to CheBurger CheBurger around here. There were two... the first in Apex (NC) and the second in NE Raleigh (Brier Creek, near the airport.) When they opened it was with great fan-fair. The place was packed from sun up to sun down. Everyone who went there told everyone they knew about it. Then the quality of the service and food went to hell. The food wasn't what it used to be; and the staff was screwing up almost every order.

Those "300 regulars" started telling a different story... to everyone. What had made the place(s) a huge success was now what was going to kill it. They were both out of business in less than a year from opening.

Will the same thing happen to DTV? No. Even if they lost every Tivo DVR subscriber -- which they won't, we've already seen many who have an HR20 and don't hate it -- they'll easily make it up with the billions of people who have never used a Tivo. Also keep in mind, DTV won't lose everyone at once; they may eventually lose 3mil subs, but it'll be at a rate of a thousands a months -- far less than new subs per month. [read: net gain] So, _they will ignore it._ If you've never used a Tivo -- or barely use the DVR functions of one, the HR20 is a fine DVR. If you've used Tivo's for a decade (like me), it's a horrible PoS.


----------



## fastep (May 22, 2004)

askewed said:


> . First Impression on the UI: It can only be okay to people that have never used TiVo. ...


Just curious - what does tivo do that the moto doesn't?



askewed said:


> EDIT: Well the installer has been gone for an hour and the thing isn't working. When you pause something you can't un-pause it...


Press "play".


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

fastep said:


> Just curious - what does tivo do that the moto doesn't?


No dual tuner buffering. UI not intuitive. Ugly. Laborious to get around in the UI. No TiVo style menu (major problem to me). The list of recorded shows is annoying to weed through.



fastep said:


> Press "play".


Tried that thanks... Needed to be unplugged.


----------



## fastep (May 22, 2004)

askewed said:


> No dual tuner buffering. UI not intuitive. Ugly. Laborious to get around in the UI. No TiVo style menu (major problem to me). The list of recorded shows is annoying to weed through.


Hey - you get what you pay for!!

Hopefully the Fios 2 guide coming this summer will be more what you're looking for. For now, I think the dvr should hold you over. Just remind yourself that what you're giving up in the UI you're getting back with picture quality and content. I hope you're at least happy with that!!??

More info on fios2 guide here: http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/22/verizon-launching-fios-interactive-media-guide/


----------



## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

fastep said:


> Hey - you get what you pay for!!
> 
> Hopefully the Fios 2 guide coming this summer will be more what you're looking for. For now, I think the dvr should hold you over. Just remind yourself that what you're giving up in the UI you're getting back with picture quality and content. I hope you're at least happy with that!!??
> 
> More info on fios2 guide here: http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/22/verizon-launching-fios-interactive-media-guide/


Why give up anything? I have FIOS TV and the S3 with CC's. Perfect - I have the best cable provider with the best DVR.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> ...Yes, there are some people that will leave because of no Tivo. But it won't hurt DirecTV and won't make a difference. It just doesn't...For you to believe otherwise is just burying your head in the sand.


Wherever did you get the notion that I believe otherwise? Certainly not from my posts.

So I think maybe we need to clarify and place this in context. What you said was:



bonscott87 said:


> Content is #1 for most people and thus most are sticking with DirecTV.


What I said, in disagreement with your post and others, was:


Ty said:


> Content is king, but its surprising how content could be an argument as to why people might have stayed with DTV, as their content, especially HD content, is just pitiful... The argument that people MIGRATED TO DTV due to the DirecTivo and STAYED THERE due to the HR10 is at least as cogent an argument.


 That is of course opinion, and certainly not an attack. But we know for a fact that many folks did indeed abandon DTV when DTV abandoned Tivo, as they are littered all over this forum.

That was followed later by a wholly different statement unconnected to our original disagreement:



Ty said:


> Stating that folks have not abandoned DTV because DTV abandoned Tivo is just a ludicrous premise.


 And that is backed up by the facts, which are that Tivo lost over 100,000 subs this quarter, virtually all of them from DTV. Of course many of those converted to the HR20, but certainly not all of them. That appears to be followed by your reply:


bonscott87 said:


> I never state such a thing...


It's difficult to figure what you might be responding to. Am I imagining the perception of a slight where there is none? Or are you imagining an attack where there is none? Or are we both imagining things? It's unclear to me. But for the record I was not pointing any finger at you with that statement, so please don't assume so, as bottom line I think we have no issue other than occasional divergent points of view. At least I hope so. Other than the original disagreement above (and that you assume I don't agree with your point that DTV won't be hurt by this, which I actually do agree with), I support most of your arguments wholeheartedly.

Cheers

Ty


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

DirecTV does not report DVR subscribers or Tivo subscribers or churn specific to those populations. The word "TiVo" doesn't even appear in their last two annual reports. 

TiVo does report DirecTV owned TiVo subscriptions and from that we know that 155,000 DTV TiVo units were unsubscribed last year and another 100,000 in the first quarter of this year. During that first quarter TiVo had a net increase of only 1000 TiVo owned subscriptions so while we can't say for sure where those DTiVo subscribers went, there does not appear to be a significant migration from DTV to TiVo stanalones at this point.

That doesn't mean there won't be, it just hasn't happened to date. Which may just be because right now there is nothing really compelling TiVo subscribers to give up their units.

I think it would be optimistic to say that DirecTV might lose 10 percent of their current TiVo subscribers. That would amount to 260,000 subscribers. Would DirecTV care about that? Of course they would, that's millions of dollars. Would DTV acknowledge that loss or note it in their SEC filings? Not unless some event causes a large enough portion of those 260,000 to leave all once creating jump in churn that would have to be explained.


----------



## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

nrc said:


> DirecTV does not report DVR subscribers or Tivo subscribers or churn specific to those populations. The word "TiVo" doesn't even appear in their last two annual reports.


Try proving that to drew2k.....


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> Try proving that to drew2k.....




Get over yourself.


----------



## bullitt (Feb 13, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> Ummm, of course not. I personally expect maybe 50 but heck I'd be happy with 10.
> 
> You must not be keeping up with the list of announced channels though.
> 
> ...


I'll send you the prospectus on that land I have for sale


----------



## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

If DirecTV adds more than 4 national HD channels this year, I'll eat my old DirecTV Tivo's. And I don't mean networks or sports channels, I mean real HD channels - like HGTV HD and Food HD (available now).


----------



## bullitt (Feb 13, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> I just don't get it. Honestly.
> 
> To everyone. If DirecTV sucks for you (whether that be in content or the fact of no Tivo) then freaking leave.
> Done.
> ...


It's not just D*TV thats at fault it's the various networks.When digital cable and Satellite first appeared we had all this great programming instantly (History, Discovery, Speed, etc.) and soon it turned to 4 hours of new programming and 12 hours of repeats and the rest infomercials. But I guess you prefer to take whatever is offered and keep your mouth shut, some of us hope that perhaps D*TV will listen to our complaints and make some changes or force their content suppliers to change. Regarding content, I would rather watch a great movie in SD that's not been aired in recent memory than one in HD thats been aired 65 times that week. I'd rather see more PPV in HD and Video on Demand than RSN's with the same crap on in every market.

Bottom line is lousy programs are still lousy, whether in HD or SD.
HD will not make Andy Richter any funnier or Surface any more interesting nor will it make Tom Cruise a better actor. And why waste bandwith on 50 year old B&W TV shows?


----------



## bullitt (Feb 13, 2002)

askewed said:


> Don't forget that I'm the "guy" in my life that people follow regarding computer/electronics/TV decisions. If you loose my business you loose business in no less then 10 other households. That still doesn't make the number huge but it is a factor.
> 
> &
> 
> ...


Exactly :up:


----------



## bullitt (Feb 13, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> I never state such a thing. You said it yourself, "the numbers might not be significant". That's the fact. Let's say for arguments sake it's a high number, say 50,000. Heck let's go hog wild and say 100,000.
> 
> Big deal.
> 
> They sign up that many new subs in a month. That's the point many are trying to make. Yes, there are some people that will leave because of no Tivo. But it won't hurt DirecTV and won't make a difference. It just doesn't. Not when they have 16.5 million subs and add nearly a million more every year. For you to believe otherwise is just burying your head in the sand.


The fact that this forum exists is a testament to it's impact and importance to many people that want something better than mediocrity. It's people like you that have contributed to the constant dumbing down in our everyday lives by continuing to accept something "just as good". Apparently alot of us will not, many of us spent $1000.00 back in 2004 for an experience that has now been eliminated.

My $1000.00 investment that stopped functioning has been deemed obsolete and replaced with something "just as good". I had a 2004 Mercedes S Class and it has been replaced with a 2005 Chrysler 300, is that an equitable solution.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

AbMagFab said:


> If DirecTV adds more than 4 national HD channels this year, I'll eat my old DirecTV Tivo's. And I don't mean networks or sports channels, I mean real HD channels - like HGTV HD and Food HD (available now).


Do you consider any of the following "real"?

"Experience 4 HD Discovery Channels, 5 HD Starz HD Channels, The History Channel, A&E, CNBC and lots more, as we roll out 100 more HD channels by year's end."

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P4310090


----------



## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

askewed said:


> I'll wait until 2.0 to be released this summer to decide about a series 3 TiVo. Thanks for all of your input.


Here's what I don't understand, you start this thread to say you're leaving D* because they aren't supporting TiVo and you're going to FIOS. Furthermore, you say you're going to wait and use the FIOS DVR and _then_ decide about the S3 in the same month that TiVo is running a $200 rebate on the model. You could easily recoup most, if not all, the cost by selling equipment you own. From what I see on these boards, the S3 works well with FIOS.

My question is this, are you leaving over TiVo or because you want the features FIOS can offer? The fact that you're taking a "wait and see" attitude on the S3 suggests the former to me. Sorry, but IMO, if you're saying TiVo is the main reason you're leaving D*, a S3 should be in your Amazon or TCF store shopping cart.


----------



## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

bidger said:


> if you're saying TiVo is the main reason you're leaving D*, a S3 should be in your Amazon or TCF store shopping cart.


Yep that's why I left.....and my S3 is wonderful. I've been living with DTV receivers and Tivo S2s to get by, but a Comcast deal and the Tivo Rebate helped me jump. My wife the non-geek in the house thinks the picture on the HDTV we've had for a couple of years just got better.

I''m glad I left! DTV is trying to stick me with a $119 early termination bill too. Me, I got the documentation (DTV e-mails) that will free me from them. I'd pay the $119 if I had to. Fskdjsk Rupert .... I'll also stop my subscription to the Wall Street Journal if that weasle ever gets his hands on that too.

Bonanza


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

AbMagFab said:


> Why give up anything? I have FIOS TV and the S3 with CC's. Perfect - I have the best cable provider with the best DVR.


Done. Just ordered an S3. When I get a shipping est I'll call FIOS and set up to get the cards. I need two (cards) to have 2 tuners... yes? But only 1 coaxial???


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

askewed said:


> Done. Just ordered an S3. When I get a shipping est I'll call FIOS and set up to get the cards. I need two (cards) to have 2 tuners... yes? But only 1 coaxial???


Hope it is what you want. It is a good mix.

But I can't help but wonder about spending so much money to avoid a cancellation fee on D* if you didn't like the HR20. You have no idea if you will like it or not but you go spend hundreds without knowing.

Ah well, your decision....Truly hope it works out for you.


----------



## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

I have read through this post and can say that I'm making the switch to DTV and the HR20 DVR even though I have the choice of FiOS and an S3. I have owned a Tivo Series 2 for 5 years and it has been a joy, but I see no further need for a "Tivo" branded DVR. The concept of a DVR is out of the box. Recording TV in digital form sure beat the heck out of VCR tapes etc etc... DTV has the NFL Sunday Ticket which is HUGE. Any sports fan that lives outside of the state his/her team plays in that has access to all the games in HD through DTV will be jumping onboard in the next couple of years. I'm a Verizon employee and work on the FiOS TV product, and it is a great product that has competitive pricing and a nice choice of channels. For what its worth, Verizon and DTV are partners anyway. If you have Verizon telephone or cell service, you can bundle DTV on the Verizon bill and get a discount. 

I can't justify $13.00/month for Tivo to provide me the same services that an HR20 would provide for $6.00/month. 

I realize that I can't get an S3 for a DTV system, but I think the Tivo pricing is out of line. 

Maybe I'm more technical then the over 40 crowd who get settled into one interface and can't adapt to changing interfaces. The bottom line is "Will the DVR record the show/shows that I tell it to?" The answer is YES, weather it is Tivo branded or not. The S3 will not have TTG, and MRV is still not certain. The competition has caught on and are offering similar if not superior DVR solutions to that of Tivo with a lessor monthly service fee. I see the cable companies and DTV only getting better interfaces in the future and they will expand their product to offer MRV and portable media solutions as well. With DRM and copywright laws only getting tighter, I don't see Tivo getting the open box that we had with the S2, and without that I don't see much of a future for Tivo. I have a Standard Def TV Tuner card in my PC, and can record any SD content that I want to archive to DVD as it is. I also have an OTA HD Tuner card in my PC and can record and archive any OTA HD content to DVD. All without paying a $13.00 service charge every month. With multimedia PC's getting easier and better all the time and HDTV's having built in VGA connections, most of you S3 owners could dump the S3 for a couple of HD tuner cards and a few SD tuner cards and still not pay the $400.00 cost of the S3. The rules of HD have changed everything and the content providers are adapting. Tivo was a revolution when it first came out, but now it is stuck behind a wall having to compete with heavy restrictions from cablelabs and copywright laws, and I don't see tivo winning this war. Non OTA HD content will always be restriced to a single DVR or have some limited MRV functionality, but we will not see the freedoms we have on the S2 with being able to transfer encrypted HD content to PC for editing or archiving to DVD. I love Tivo, but I'm jumping off the boat before it sinks.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

tcb121 said:


> DTV has the NFL Sunday Ticket which is HUGE. Any sports fan that lives outside of the state his/her team plays in that has access to all the games in HD through DTV will be jumping onboard in the next couple of years.


Not likely. There's nothing new about that ST package that's going to attract a raft of new subscribers. The cost per game continues to escalate and charging extra for HD games is ridiculous. There will always be a market among the diehards, but with more and more games showing up on NFL network, either live or tape delayed, it will be harder and harder to justify that expense.



> The bottom line is "Will the DVR record the show/shows that I tell it to?" The answer is YES, weather it is Tivo branded or not.


There is a market for a product that does it easier, better, and more reliably. Nothing really matches TiVo in all those areas. There may be other solutions "good enough" for you and many others, and that's fine.

The fact that you don't consider TiVo worth a premium is your choice. TiVo doesn't need everyone. But some of those cable companies you mention are bringing those new features and better interfaces by offering TiVo software at a premium over their basic DVR software. So they believe there is value there.

As for the rest, you're just dreaming up ways not to pay for DVR software and that applies equally to any provider DVR platform. If you only care about SD and OTA HD knock yourself out.


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

tcb121 said:


> Maybe I'm more technical then the over 40 crowd... I love Tivo, but I'm jumping off the boat before it sinks.


I'm no where near 40. Why brings you to that conclusion? Is it because I have a bit of disposable income to spend on TV?

If you're so "technical" how is it you can't see how far and away superior the TiVo UI is to the various Motorola receivers floating about the industry?

Also, I love the next sentiment... Every day for 5 years I hear how TiVo's business model is flawed and they are all but done... but here we are and they're still here.

I can pre-pay for 3 years of TiVo for $299 which is $8.31 per month or 50% less then leasing a FIOS DVR. and only $3.31 more then the DTV fee. All respect... If you're 25 yrs old or in the "less technical" over 40 crowd and coming up with $300 isn't viable for you... I submit that you are involved in something you can't afford.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bullitt said:


> ...HD will not make Andy Richter any funnier or Surface any more interesting...


Well, Andy Richter was never ever funny at all (unless annoying whining is funny, and then he might as well be Andy Rooney), but did you see the Surface episode where Lake Bell strips down to jump in the ocean? Now that was VERY interesting (had to rewind that part a few times), probably even so in SD.


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

bullitt said:


> many of us spent $1000.00 back in 2004 for an experience that has now been eliminated.


Are you complaining about spending less then $30 a month to have something that only a fraction of the population has?

I have an over-average priced vehicle. It costs me $600 a month.

I live in an above average town. (School ratings, crime levels etc.) That privilege costs me an average of 50% more then the median level citizen pays per month. With that comes an over-priced grocery store, movie theater prices greater then the norm and on and on.

You want nice stuff you have to pay for it... and more often


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

Both of my HR 10-250's have died in the past two days. the video outs are dead. Got the FIOS just in time. S3 arrives tomorrow morning the cards come in the afternoon.


----------



## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Yep.
> 
> FYI that most customers can get it for $199 and if you have a Tivo already, especially an HR10 it's free to $99 at most. I can log on to my account right now and go to the Upgrade Equipment section and get an HR20 for $199. So that would be my starting point on any negotiation when calling.


My Upgrade Equipment section quotes $299 for the HR20, but maybe that's because I got a free R10 a few months ago. It was free, but hardly worth it.


----------



## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

desulliv said:


> My Upgrade Equipment section quotes $299 for the HR20, but maybe that's because I got a free R10 a few months ago. It was free, but hardly worth it.


I bought a computer last night and they tried to give me a bunch of free (net of rebate) stuff.

I said, it's junk; why would I want to clutter up my house with junk.

"Yeah but you could sell it on eBay for [ 70% of its supposed value ], that's what I did."

But I would be cheating somebody.

"Well, that's what eBay is for."

I don't understand where we are today.


----------



## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

> I'm no where near 40. Why brings you to that conclusion? Is it because I have a bit of disposable income to spend on TV?


Most of the older generation will learn one interface over the years, and then struggle when things change. When things went from win98 to Win2000 and XP, and now Vista, people resisted change.. People like a set way of doing things and Tivo is the old familier friend, so I see people who resist change based on not wanting to learn something new. For me, I don't live my life in front of my TV, I golf, rock climb, ski, bowl, swim, and play in a band, so I don't require a DVR to have a glorious UI to record 24 or house while I'm out rock climbing or golfing. I've got plenty of "disposable" income, but I prioritize my dollars different then you. Both me and the wife are well paid engineers, and spending a premium for a "Tivo" branded DVR was not high on our list.



> If you're so "technical" how is it you can't see how far and away superior the TiVo UI is to the various Motorola receivers floating about the industry?


Give me a break. I can do everything that I want to do with the HR20 that I could with the Tivo. I can stream my MP3's, and I can record shows to play back at a later time. Am I missing something??? Oh yeah, your interface looks pretty and it takes you 15 seconds less to pick the show.



> Also, I love the next sentiment... Every day for 5 years I hear how TiVo's business model is flawed and they are all but done... but here we are and they're still here.


Here is how I see it. Tivo reminds me of the dial up internet days. Recall when AOL was the only game in town. Then recall when all of the content providers started offering their services, and then high speed internet came along. AOL stock dropped like a rock, and the only way they survived was to merge with Time Warner because they were pushed out of the market by Verizon and Comcast etc... I see a paralell with Tivo. Tivo gave us the DVR and a great way to record. It sure beat the VCR days. Now every cable, FiOS or Satellite provider is offering their own DVR solution, so what is Tivo going to offer that every other providers DVR isn't? Each day the competition is improving the UI of their DVR's, and in some cases will have more functionality then Tivo will be able to offer for less $$. I work for Verizon on the FiOS TV side, and I can tell you Verizon does not want to support Tivo products, we would rather have those DVR dollars coming from our own DVR's that we provide. DTV is the same, and I imagine Comcast and all others are the same. Keep those DVR dollars in house. The only way I see Tivo being around is if they partner with Verizon / Cable / Satellite and offer them a sweet deal at that. If not, who's to say Tivo will not dry up. Over the next 5 years there is going to be a massive migration to HD as more and more hold outs will take the plunge. I can't see many of the late converts paying a premium for a "Tivo" branded DVR when the content provider already offers a DVR for less. Besides, the content providers will offer incentives for users to not go with Tivo. I was all for Tivo when it came out, and they changed the way people watch TV, but unless they partner with some providers, they are doomed to fail. Did I hear someone say Switched Digital Video from Time Warner??? Hmmm, wonder if they want Tivo users on their cable??? Did I also hear DTV say "NO" to Tivo offering an Mpeg4 Tivo??? Hmmm, wonder if DTV wants Tivo on their network??? Did I hear Verizon may offer incentives to people who want to go with Tivo to stay with our DVR??? I know Verizon doesn't want Tivo on our network.. Yes, all hail the UI of Tivo, but it's more then the UI, its about the dollars, and every content provider will be squeezing out Tivo because they offer their own DVR product. Tivo can have a small market share for the die hards, and thats about all I see sticking with Tivo over the coming years.



> I can pre-pay for 3 years of TiVo for $299 which is $8.31 per month or 50% less then leasing a FIOS DVR. and only $3.31 more then the DTV fee. All respect... If you're 25 yrs old or in the "less technical" over 40 crowd and coming up with $300 isn't viable for you... I submit that you are involved in something you can't afford.


Yes, Tivo wants you tied into that 3 year contract cause they see the writing on the wall. Better pay me now before the competition takes me out. FiOS HD DVR without MRV is $12.99, so I don't get your 50% less then FiOS DVR statement. Ohh, you didn't know you could get a FiOS DVR with MRV for $19.99. Yeah, it also streams music and photos etc.. Just like another product I know.


----------



## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

> Not likely. There's nothing new about that ST package that's going to attract a raft of new subscribers. The cost per game continues to escalate and charging extra for HD games is ridiculous. There will always be a market among the diehards, but with more and more games showing up on NFL network, either live or tape delayed, it will be harder and harder to justify that expense.


NRC,

I agree that the NFL ST is not a "new" offering that will bring in a massive switch, but here is my logic. I was a TiVo Series 2 owner for the past 5 years, and I have had DTV and the NFL ST for all of those years. I recently made the switch to HD and with that came the cancelation of my TiVo service. I'm not alone on that decision either. My Father who has NFL ST and TiVo also made the switch to HD and dumped TiVo in favor of the HD DVR that comes with DTV. My brother in law did the same. All of us are "die hard" football fans who had TiVo units that canceled out Tivo subscriptions because we made the switch to HD and kept DTV for the sole purpose of the NFL ST package. My point is I think many of the NFL ST fans will be making that switch to HD and will either keep the S2 tivo to record only SD, but will likely end up dumping Tivo in favor of the HD DVR from DTV. I'm just one of many who will be leaving TiVo because DTV and the NFL ST.


----------



## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

tcb121 said:


> Most of the older generation will learn one interface over the years, and then struggle when things change. When things went from win98 to Win2000 and XP, and now Vista, people resisted change.. People like a set way of doing things and Tivo is the old familier friend, so I see people who resist change based on not wanting to learn something new.


I don't think age has anything to do with it, some people, young or old resist change. I'm 40 and I'm an early adopter to much new tech, I love new tech, I live to get new toys. New version of Windows comes out, I'm there.

As far as Tivo vs the other DVRs out there, for functionality and ease of use, Tivo takes the prize, sure your HR20 does what you need it to do, but for those of us poor schlubs that spend more time in front of the tv, features and functionality come into play. I want dual live buffers, I want wish list, I want a comprehensive, easy to navigate menu system.

and why the need to point out you rock climb, ski, bow, swim etc and don't live in front of your TV, bully for you. Some of us don't have that option and it makes us no less of a person and it makes our life no less important.


----------



## tcb121 (Dec 13, 2006)

> I don't think age has anything to do with it, some people, young or old resist change. I'm 40 and I'm an early adopter to much new tech, I love new tech, I live to get new toys. New version of Windows comes out, I'm there.


I agree but only to an extent. My point was to show a segment of the market who would prefer to stick with TiVo because they didn't care to learn a new user interface even though other non "TiVo" branded DVR's performed the same function.



> As far as Tivo vs the other DVRs out there, for functionality and ease of use, Tivo takes the prize, sure your HR20 does what you need it to do, but for those of us poor schlubs that spend more time in front of the tv, features and functionality come into play. I want dual live buffers, I want wish list, I want a comprehensive, easy to navigate menu system.


You are the target market for TiVo.



> and why the need to point out you rock climb, ski, bowl, swim etc and don't live in front of your TV, bully for you. Some of us don't have that option and it makes us no less of a person and it makes our life no less important.


I didn't mean any disrespect for anyone who is not capable of other social or athletic activities. I was simply stating my own personal usage of time and how the use of a DVR in our home plays out.


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

Do my HR 10-250's have any value or should I mine the HDs?


----------



## ebockelman (Jul 12, 2001)

They have a decent ebay value if they are fully working.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

tcb121 said:


> Most of the older generation will learn one interface over the years, and then struggle when things change. When things went from win98 to Win2000 and XP, and now Vista, people resisted change.. People like a set way of doing things and Tivo is the old familier friend, so I see people who resist change based on not wanting to learn something new...


 That's one side of the coin, but there is another side, equally valid.

I read a positive review of the HR20, and so allowed them to send me one. I went in with an open mind, willing to make the effort, and with every good intention of doing whatever it took to cross over. I was still mildly skeptical, because I had Tivo off and on since 1999 and three very different DISH PVRs for about 4 years, as well as Replay and others, so I thought I knew how bad (and how good)it could get, but I was completely wrong about how bad.

After struggling for a week, learning the interface pretty well, and finding the HR20 completely lacking in user-friendliness, performance, and features, I bailed bigtime, even before I learned that stability was as much of an issue as it was. As optimism turned to frustration, I probably cursed under my breath more that week than I have all totalled since I was in the 6th grade.

So it takes more than a willingness to make the effort and change, or an open mind, it takes a product that can begin to compete in the same league. The HR20 just ain't the answer.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> So it takes more than a willingness to make the effort and change, or an open mind, it takes a product that can begin to compete in the same league. The HR20 just ain't the answer.


I'm not sure why you disliked the UI so intensely - I was completely comfortable navigating it within a week. The HR20 has a menu structure that is unlike the TiVo, and it has its own shortcuts that become second nature, but it just takes repeated use to become completely familiar with it. When I got my first TiVo, I was completely frustrated at all the steps it took to get to certain options buried in menus. My Cablevision SA8300HD organizes menu options in yet another way, and my Media Center in yet another. I am completely comfortable juggling between all four, and honestly the only DVR I have that is truly suck-worthy is the SA8300.

I think the HR20 will be a great answer for many people, even people who have owned TiVos.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

drew2k said:


> I'm not sure why you disliked the UI so intensely - I was completely comfortable navigating it within a week...When I got my first TiVo, I was completely frustrated at all the steps it took to get to certain options buried in menus...
> 
> I think the HR20 will be a great answer for many people, even people who have owned TiVos.


I agree, the HR20 might be just fine for many folks. The likelihood seems to be connected to how much you prefer Tivo in the first place. If you really think nothing compares, you likely won't be happy, but if you never understood what all the fuss over Tivo was, and many legitimately feel that way (or the other way), you will probably take to it a little better.

It just wasn't at all acceptable to me. I actually preferred Replay significantly over Tivo back in the day, but then the DirecTivo evolved into the supremely elegant and useful HD platform it has become, while Replay fell by the wayside, never making the leap to HD. I endured 4 years of DISH DVRs until I just couldn't stand it anymore, and then moved to DirecTivos.

At that point there was a huge relearning curve, and it was a little frustrating as well, but that was far overshadowed by the added features, expandability, and reliability and PQ of the DirecTivo, so I understand the transitional requirements that come with changing platforms. For instance, I thought I would miss the two (count em) 120-minute buffers in the DISH 721, which I used constantly, but the Tivo interface made even a single 30-minute buffer irrelevant, due to the paradigm shift of how the "assistant" approach of Tivo changes your basic thinking totally away from that connected to time-slot recording.

So in my experience, changing platforms can only be successful if there is a payoff involved. IOW, I'm willing to do the work if I can also reap some benefits. In the case of DISH to DirecTivo, it was challenging but then there were rewards along the way. In the case of DirecTivo to HR20, their weren't, just compromise, frustration, and finally bitterness and anger that my lifestyle was being forced to change in a way which had no positives at all, and tons of negatives.

After the DISH to DTV transition, my perception was "that wasn't easy, but I'm really glad I made the effort", while after the HR10 to HR20 transition, which admittedly failed in my case, my perception was "well, there's a week of my life I'll never get back". You have to know when to fold 'em.


----------



## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

I only have one simple requirement... A DVR that can record the programs I want without cutting them short or missing a recording without user intervention for at least a month. I have only used two products that have passed that test, a DirecTiVo and a heavily modified MythTV box. I am hoping that the HR20 will soon pass this test but it has not been able to do it yet. It has been getting closer but it still is not there yet.


----------



## 94SupraTT (Feb 17, 2005)

nrc said:


> Not likely. There's nothing new about that ST package that's going to attract a raft of new subscribers. The cost per game continues to escalate and charging extra for HD games is ridiculous. There will always be a market among the diehards, but with more and more games showing up on NFL network, either live or tape delayed, it will be harder and harder to justify that expense.


I've gotta agree. I've subscribed for the past 4 years. I'm a Bears fan and this year we will have 5 games broadcast nationally. I don't know if I want to pay $340 to watch 11 Bears games (HD) this season.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> ... In the case of DirecTivo to HR20, their weren't, just compromise, frustration, and finally bitterness and anger that my lifestyle was being forced to change in a way which had no positives at all, and tons of negatives.
> 
> After the DISH to DTV transition, my perception was "that wasn't easy, but I'm really glad I made the effort", while after the HR10 to HR20 transition, which admittedly failed in my case, my perception was "well, there's a week of my life I'll never get back". You have to know when to fold 'em.





rminsk said:


> I only have one simple requirement... A DVR that can record the programs I want without cutting them short or missing a recording without user intervention for at least a month. I have only used two products that have passed that test, a DirecTiVo and a heavily modified MythTV box. I am hoping that the HR20 will soon pass this test but it has not been able to do it yet. It has been getting closer but it still is not there yet.


I agree with the sentiment, but don't forget even TiVo has needed daily baby sitting, just this past January. After some guide data changes, lots of people were experiencing problems with season passes and it was an actual chore to use TiVo. This was ultimately resolved, but when the software and conditions don't align, any DVR can be a pain to use, even TiVo.

In the case of the HR20, there are many who will say that it was released to the public "before its prime", that it had too many issues and should have been held back. I can't speak to that because I got my first HR20 in March, more than 7 months after the HR20 was introduced. In my experience, I have not had to babysit my HR20 once. Ever series link has been recorded as it should. It's doing what it's supposed to. DirecTV is constantly improving the software and is carefully paying attention to user feedback, even implementing some suggestions made by users.

Unfortunately, I think those who tried and hated the HR20 in its first few months have been soured for good, and maybe with good reason, but the HR20 today is definitely not the HR20 from last year, and I think DirecTV could certainly be successful with their in-house going forward.


----------



## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

drew2k said:


> I agree with the sentiment, but don't forget even TiVo has needed daily baby sitting, just this past January. After some guide data changes, lots of people were experiencing problems with season passes and it was an actual chore to use TiVo. This was ultimately resolved, but when the software and conditions don't align, any DVR can be a pain to use, even TiVo.
> 
> In the case of the HR20, there are many who will say that it was released to the public "before its prime", that it had too many issues and should have been held back. I can't speak to that because I got my first HR20 in March, more than 7 months after the HR20 was introduced. In my experience, I have not had to babysit my HR20 once. Ever series link has been recorded as it should. It's doing what it's supposed to. DirecTV is constantly improving the software and is carefully paying attention to user feedback, even implementing some suggestions made by users.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think those who tried and hated the HR20 in its first few months have been soured for good, and maybe with good reason, but the HR20 today is definitely not the HR20 from last year, and I think DirecTV could certainly be successful with their in-house going forward.


I have had an HR20 since October and I definately had a few missed or cut off recordings. Also the occasional recording that was just blank. However in the past 2-3 months I haven't had a single problem with recordings.


----------



## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

I got a new HR20 about 10 days ago and it is a complete lemon. Since I have two others that are working correctly I'm not that upset and I ordered a replacement. I have two HR10s also and when a show runs a few minutes past the scheduled ending time all of the DVRs lose those minutes unless I pad them. There are real differences between the two units but not in that department. If the one I just sent back was my first one I would have become a hater. Since I know how good they can be I can take it in stride. People that have recieved bad hardware are bitter and I can't blame them.


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

One 1 week with FIOS and a Series 3 TiVo... I may plant a tree where the dish is since I'm clearly never going to need or want it ever again.

Viva La TiVo! Viva La FIOS!!!!


----------



## Billdkid (Jun 11, 2007)

Hey How are yall
heres a few thoughts from the peanut gallery
1 "tivo" is a software provider that directv used to use in their dvr product with or without
"tivo" the hardware remains the same Granted the "tivo" software had a few more features (for now) directv does need to listen a little better to what their customers want 
2 over the last 3 years directv has been rearranging their whole infrastructure to make room for all the new offerings this includes opening 2 new "slots in the sky" the 99 and 103
both are narrow bandwidth sats both to be used for hd programming the "big ugly dish"
is a symptom of this, the old dishes cannot see the narrow band the new dishes (5 sat) can. the old receivers also cant see these signals. if you look at the new lnb you will see that the same one that does the 101 also gets the 99 and 103 direct will be migrating the hd channels from the 110 and 119 to the 99 ,103 when they do the dish will shrink 
in a nutshell directv has 1000 times more bandwidth than any other provider (provided the consumer wants to pay for it)
3 i have new and old dvrs yes i prefer my old ones only because others have figured out how to upgrade the software i am shure human nature what it is someone will figure out how to do it to the hr-20 and the r15 
4 rupert controlls the manufacturing end of d* and being a media mogul he wants to restrict the propagation of "illegal" copies of "his" broadcasts and make you see the commercials (thats how he makes his money)


Go ahead go somewhere else as for me i want choices and d* offers the most


----------



## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

Billdkid said:


> Hey How are yall
> heres a few thoughts from the peanut gallery
> 1 "tivo" is a software provider that directv used to use in their dvr product with or without
> "tivo" the hardware remains the same


Tivo was also the hardware provider and licensed the only the receiver technology from DirecTV. DirecTV never designed any hardware for a DVR before the R15 and HR20.


> 2 over the last 3 years directv has been rearranging their whole infrastructure to make room for all the new offerings this includes opening 2 new "slots in the sky" the 99 and 103
> both are narrow bandwidth sats both to be used for hd programming the "big ugly dish"
> is a symptom of this, the old dishes cannot see the narrow band the new dishes (5 sat) can. the old receivers also cant see these signals. if you look at the new lnb you will see that the same one that does the 101 also gets the 99 and 103 direct will be migrating the hd channels from the 110 and 119 to the 99 ,103 when they do the dish will shrink
> in a nutshell directv has 1000 times more bandwidth than any other provider (provided the consumer wants to pay for it)


Big runon sentence that I can not parse. Please use punctuation. The beam may be narrower but that is not why the old LNBs can not see it. The new satellites are using Ka band signals while the old satellies use Ku band signals. Also this signal coming from the new satellites are modulated differently. DirecTV will not be getting rid of the 110 and 119 orbital slots so the dish will not shrink because of that. They do not have "1000 times more bandwidth" than any other provider.


> 3 i have new and old dvrs yes i prefer my old ones only because others have figured out how to upgrade the software i am shure human nature what it is someone will figure out how to do it to the hr-20 and the r15


They have done plenty of software upgrades to the HR20...


> 4 rupert controlls the manufacturing end of d* and being a media mogul he wants to restrict the propagation of "illegal" copies of "his" broadcasts and make you see the commercials (thats how he makes his money)


Rupert does not make any money on DirecTV with the commericals. The broadcasters do but not DirecTV. That being said Rupert does have some channels on DirecTV as well as other television providers. The reason he wants to limit illegal copies is to keep the people he purchases programming packages for DirecTV happy.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

drew2k said:


> ...even TiVo has needed daily baby sitting, just this past January...


 I just returned from a week on the road. All 3 Tivos behaved perfectly in my absence. This is the typical experience I have had with Tivo since 1999. This is not at all the typical experience I had with the other 5 PVRs I have owned in the last 8 years.

If you think Tivo needs daily babysitting, just go to DISH, or cable TV. If you want to not loose more that a couple of recordings a month, you have to be all over those boxes. People regularly reboot them daily and still lose recordings. If you ignore them, you will get a significantly higher percentage of failed recordings. I can basically ignore Tivo and loose maybe a couple recordings a YEAR. And folks who don't frequent this forum can't be bothered to micromanage their recorders, making Tivo an ideal appliance for them.

All information on the forums is anecdotal. Only when you sift all the info over a long period of time does the real pattern emerge. The complaints here about Tivo are jokingly minute compared to the pattern of pain experienced and reported by other PVR owners.



drew2k said:


> ...Unfortunately, I think those who tried and hated the HR20 in its first few months have been soured for good, and maybe with good reason, but the HR20 today is definitely not the HR20 from last year...


And just how, exactly, has it changed? Let's see that laundry list. Has there been anything even remotely significant regarding the UI? Because that is the only thing that I had to base my judgment on, as that and stability are the two main things that make any PVR worth having, or worth jettisoning off the balcony. Having numerous affordable options for expandability comes in a distant third, trailed much more distantly by everything else.

When I had the HR20 it was too new to judge reliability, which I understand still leaves plenty to be desired, compared to the HR10. About the only thing today's HR20 will do that the one I had for a week would not do was record OTA, something which was promised (but not delivered) then.

But again, the UI alone was enough to convince me that this would never do, even if it were free (actually, it was free), had good expandability (it didn't) and was reliable (too early to tell then, but proved not to be very quickly). It would have to morph away from its inherent user-hostility quite a bit to even pretend to play in the same league, let alone compete. The final decision was a no-brainer.


----------



## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

rminsk said:


> I only have one simple requirement... A DVR that can record the programs I want without cutting them short or missing a recording without user intervention for at least a month. I have only used two products that have passed that test, a DirecTiVo and a heavily modified MythTV box. I am hoping that the HR20 will soon pass this test but it has not been able to do it yet. It has been getting closer but it still is not there yet.


Unfortunately I cannot say the same, the HR20 works, the HR10 has problems with short recordings, random reboots and missed season passes


----------



## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

The circle is complete. The hard drives from my once beloved HR 10-250s are now in a external enclosure. Instead of TV shows they now house backups of iTunes and iPhoto. Insert pointed quotation here.


----------

