# What Is TiVo thinking??



## tpayne (Sep 13, 2006)

I have been a TiVo subscriber for more than 6 years and am personally for at least 7 new TiVo subscribers, but I am about at my wits end for making excuses for them. I have truly become a disillusioned "fanboy". 

Here are my list of "recommendations" comments:
1) STOP HATING Your Mac users. OK, Apple makes AppleTV I can't help that. Many Mac users like our TiVo's please stop treating us like 2nd class citizens. We have to pay for features that other users get for free and I am tired of it.
2) Blackberry app??? Really? With no info that I can find for an iPhone app. Are you people serious? You think Blackberry is going to mount a "comeback"? With what I've seen in the last few years I expect we'll see a Palm Pre app before a iPhone app. I suspect that comment #1 has something to do with this hmmmmm...
3) If you release another TiVo without building in the wireless adapter that is IT - I'm DONE. I will only be gouged so much. 
4) 802.11n - you are killing my network. My TiVO is the only device I own that connects at 802.11g. Come on...how long do we have to wait?
5) I don't know whats up with the Series 3 HD boxes but I have to reboot every month or so...the damn thing just freezes. I've done everything the forums suggest but you guys have something screwed up. This thing is getting more and more list a PeeCee. Before long I'll be running virus software and defragmenting. Come on folks!!!

I have been a fanboy for a long time, but you guys are really starting to test my patience. You know what needs to be done. You have a great (although shrinking) community. Help US help YOU - listen to what we are saying!!!

I HATE being negative so I'll end on a high note - LOVE THE NETFLIX!!!!


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

tpayne said:


> I HATE being negative so I'll end on a high note - LOVE THE NETFLIX!!!!


I'd love it more on the TiVo if it didn't crash so hard I have to pull the power plug. I love Netflix on my $99 Roku box a lot more.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't understand your high level of frustration over most of these points.

1) Are you talking about Tivo Desktop? Have you looked at the free software tools like iTivo, pyTivoX, kmttg, and Galleon?

2) Doesn't http://m.tivo.com work on an iPhone? Although it's not as pretty, doesn't it perform the same basic functions as the Blackberry app?

3-4) Just buy a wireless N bridge. One inexpensive example is the Zyxel WAP3205:
http://www.buy.com/prod/zyxel-wap32...oint-ethernet-bridge/q/loc/101/211875912.html

5) Yes this would be frustrating, but it is not a problem that everyone experiences. I've never had a freeze or unexpected reboot on my Tivo HD. Maybe there is a problem with your Tivo box?


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## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

1. They are not "hating" on Mac users. The market share for Macintosh has hovered somewhere around 10&#37; for a long time and isn't showing any signs of meteoric growth, so I do not understand why you would expect TiVo to go out of their way to support 1/10 of the computing population.

And what is free for PC users that Mac users have to pay for? Last time I checked, TiVo Desktop Plus for PC is not a free product.

2. The mobile version of TiVo's website, m.tivo.com, works on the iPhone. As the iPhone really does have a pretty large market share, I would doubt that TiVo is not working on a native app.

3. I wonder how much it would cost for you to have an electrician run a Cat-6 cable to your TiVo. I wonder how much more that would cost than the purchase price of all of the wireless adapters you've bought.

For me personally, I have wired Ethernet in my home theater and have it connected to an 8-port switch to connect to all of the other networked equipment (Blu-Ray, Roku, HDMI A/V receiver, etc.). Wired Ethernet is far, far (FAR) more reliable than wireless connections, which can experience packet loss and dropouts.

4. When the TiVo Series 3 and HD were released, there was no such thing as 802.11n. Also, the network throughput on the box couldn't keep up with an "n" connection anyway.

Wireless N bridges are available.

5. I've had an original Series 3 TiVo since November 2006, and it has been nothing but rock-solid the entire time. Even after upgrading the hard drive to a 1TB and adding a Tuning Adapter, it is still rock solid with the only exception being loss of Internet connectivity. It never needs to be rebooted except for software upgrades.

I would speculate that the problem with your rebooting is related to a flaky wireless network connection. The TiVo does not handle drops in the network signal very well at all. There have been 1 or 2 instances where my Internet service has gone out and the TiVo restarted itself because it was communicating on the network at the time.

It seems like if the TiVo gets "stuck" for more than about 10 seconds while trying to complete a network operation, some sort of keep-alive thread wakes up and restarts the box to restore control.

All in all, you sound more like an Apple fanboy, not a TiVo fanboy, as evidenced by your weak, outdated jabs at "PeeCee"s (stupidest word I've ever read). Just because you see a lot of Macs on TV does not mean that that is how it really is out in the real world.

Hopefully you haven't fallen for the propaganda that is the Mac vs. PC commercials. Very little of what they accuse Windows of is actually true. While very funny and well-done, they are not so strong in the area of reality.

The only time I reboot my PCs is to install updates like service packs. They never "freeze" or exhibit any of the behavior that you inaccurately attribute to them.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

You can get 100ft of cat 5 cable from ebay for about $7. It's not that hard to run the cable from point A to point B.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

shwru980r said:


> It's not that hard to run the cable from point A to point B.


That is not always true. Running new cable is very difficult or impossible in some structures. In those cases, hardwired ethernet is simply not an option.


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## jimmiem (Sep 2, 2007)

I'm with the OP on the exclusion of built-in wireless. The number of devices that surround me which have wireless built-in makes it ludicrous that TiVo would not have it. My laptop, HTC Touch Pro, iPod Touch, Apple TV, Wii, and PSP. If online content is something TiVo is pushing as part of their business model then it should be included. Before all of the VOD I could kind of understand making us buy an adapter separately. Now TiVo is a connected device and loses significant functionality without an internet connection.


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## wgc (Oct 16, 2009)

tpayne said:


> 3) If you release another TiVo without building in the wireless adapter that is IT - I'm DONE. I will only be gouged so much.
> 4) 802.11n - you are killing my network. My TiVO is the only device I own that connects at 802.11g. Come on...how long do we have to wait?
> 5) I don't know whats up with the Series 3 HD boxes but I have to reboot every month or so...the damn thing just freezes. I've done everything the forums suggest but you guys have something screwed up. This thing is getting more and more list a PeeCee. Before long I'll be running virus software and defragmenting. Come on folks!!!


I suppose they can't please everyone but for me building in the wireless would be a waste, increasing complexity, increasing network load, decreasing reliability, decreasing security, etc. I don't want it.

Portable devices have good reason to have wifi, but stationary consumer devices with high bandwidth needs are much better served with wired networking. Stringing a cable really is straightforward for most people and your entertainment center needs a network connection anyway. Just do it. For the few who can't, a wireless bridge will be more reliable, faster, and make better use of limited frequency space; and already exists.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

wgc said:


> I suppose they can't please everyone but for me building in the wireless would be a waste, increasing complexity, increasing network load, decreasing reliability, decreasing security, etc. I don't want it.


Agreed. It's an extra cost whose benefits are dubious at best.



wgc said:


> Portable devices have good reason to have wifi, but stationary consumer devices with high bandwidth needs are much better served with wired networking.


Exactly. In general I recommend against wireless for any purpose unless there is no other option. I definitely recommend against wireless for streaming video. Wired options offer much greater reliability and vastly greater bandwidth.



wgc said:


> Stringing a cable really is straightforward for most people and your entertainment center needs a network connection anyway. Just do it. For the few who can't, a wireless bridge will be more reliable, faster, and make better use of limited frequency space; and already exists.


Absolutely. The number and variety of Ethernet capable devices is only going to grow. I have a minimum of two Ethernet devices at every single TV outlet in the house - and I have 8 outlets. Regardless of the native bandwidth of the wireless spec in question, the bandwidth is shared between all the devices. Add to that the facts that wireless requires a lot of overhead and the fact a particular station may not be able to negotiate the full bandwidth available, and you have a situation where network bottlenecks are all but guaranteed. Even the latest and greatest WiFi solutions can only manage a maximum throughput of a couple of hundred Mbps. Wired solutions can easily manage many, many times that, even for 100M networks. Gigagbit networks completely blow any wireless solution away.

No, forget about an integrated wireless solution. Give me a 1000BaseT solution.


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## emp (Feb 11, 2005)

wireless built in? I think that's a waste. It adds extra cost and everyone does not need it, and wired will always be more reliable. In addition, Tivo only recently started putting wired built in, starting with the DT, before that, it was adapters for everything. Also TIVO hardware is not fast enough to benefit from using wireless N. If it really bothers you, get a bridge or run a wire.
Also as far as the mac thing, why don't you just use VMware Fusion or Parallels or Boot Camp and run the windows app if you think its so much better?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

spocko said:


> That is not always true. Running new cable is very difficult or impossible in some structures. In those cases, hardwired ethernet is simply not an option.


"Some" is the operative word, here. It is not "all" or even "most". Indeed, by far most houses can rather easily implement a wired solution. For those which cannot, a wireless bridge is a viable solution. Equipping umpteen different devices - including TVs, TiVos, AVRs, and computers, at each entertainment center with wireless capabilities is just not a good solution. If it is working well - a big if - wireless is convenient. That is all. It brings with it a host of problems and limitations, though.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> "Some" is the operative word, here ... blah, blah, blah


I was merely correcting an over-generalization about the ease of deploying wired networks. Not sure why you inferred that I was arguing anything more.

I happen to be one of the unfortunate few who lives in a structure where it is not feasible to deploy a wired network. However you will note that in the 3rd post I suggested a wireless bridge for those who need wireless. Like you, I am not interested in Tivo having built-in wireless.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

I could run a wire to my TiVo but it's a royal pain so I didn't do it. I chose to go Powerline Ethernet for my Series 3 and it's been absolutely flawless for several years. When I had a Series 2 there before with a wireless adapter, I had tons of problems. Powerline Ethernet might be a good alternative for those houses that make running Ethernet difficult and/or expensive.

My general rule of thumb is that for stationary devices, run wires whenever possible. For portable devices, wireless makes sense.

My Roku sits in a finished basement and running Ethernet to it would be even worse than my living room. It came with built-in wireless g and it's been working quite well for the 6 months I've had it.

"It's all about the tradeoffs".


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## rwross (Jan 3, 2005)

Guys...I think the OP has some very valid points.

Personally, I think I have pretty strong TiVo Fan creds in that I've probably owned 10 boxes over the past six years or so and at least 7 active referrals. At least three of those boxes died unceremoniously and I've had numerous issues with CableCards.

TiVo has always treated me fairly once i got past first level CSRs so I've been been happy with the company but not as happy as I am with the general TiVo user experience. I have one brand sticker on my car, TiVo, actually own a TiVo plush critter, and our family dog's name is...yes...TiVo.

Ok...and I think TiVo is screwing us Mac users too.

1) The feature OP is referring to is the ability to download content to another device for playback. TiVo desktop for PC supports this while Desktop Plus lets you export it to other devices like iPods. I actually have a license for Desktop Plus before I went Mac, but had to buy Toast for $80 to get the same functionality in the FREE version of PC desktop.

Now, to add insult to injury, even the dumbed down version of Desktop for Mac doesn't work on Apples' s current operating system. TiVo had to know this would be an issue since developer seeds were available for over a year. It's been almost two months and I can still not stream music or photos from my Mac to my TiVos. This is unacceptable.

2) This isn't really an issue for me. There is a third party app iTV for iPhone that is free and is better than anything TiVo is likely to build. It can schedule things on your TiVo and even serves as a network enabled remote. It's free...get it.

3) The benefits of wired connections aside, including wireless in modern devices is table stakes. A combo chip that does wifi, bluetooth, etc, is about $5.00 and should be part of any media device.

4) Since the OP is an Apple user, I recommend the current AEBS since it has two radios and can isolate your slower G devices from your faster N ones. Since you have an iPhone and it runs G, it would be a benefit regardless of what TiVo does

5) TiVo's QA on its software could certainly use some tuning. I still have nightly 5 min season passes scheduled for both tuners so that my analog tuner won't drop out.

I completely reject the argument made by some that Mac users only represent 10% of the market on two fronts.

First, while it's true that Mac share is 10% of the broader PC market, most families view having at least one PC in the house as a modern appliance. However, for most people a DVR is a luxury or at least, nice-to-have purchase. Among such buyers, Apple has a much higher share. If you consider TiVo a premium product in contrast to cable DVRs, which I do, then Apple has approx 70% of the share of such purchases. In short, I'd contend that TiVo has a lot more Mac users than 10%

However, even if they did only have 10% Mac users, the cost of customer acquisition for TiVo is quite high and it is well worth it to invest a bit of effort to not LOSE already acquired customers.

Ok...I'm getting off my soapbox now.


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## jjcool (Sep 24, 2009)

As has already been stated, Tivo is thinking about making money. Why would they change anything to cater to less than 10&#37; of the computer owing public? It doesnt make sense. 

Dont know why you are having such problems with your Tivo. Mine is running just fine, with no crashes. Just like my PC.


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## rwross (Jan 3, 2005)

You clearly didn't read any of my post that described why that 10% number is incorrect...


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Even though Macs may be 10&#37; of current market sales that doesn't mean that the people who own Tivos follow that same percentage.

Mac Owners tend to be more gadget hungry and I wouldn't be surprised if Macs were a higher percentage of the Tivo installed base.

That being said Tivo is way behind on the new product curve. Most companies are releasing new products 1-2 times a year. Certainly the low level components are changing right and left. About the only thing we are seeing is a few internet enhancements. Granted they are probably working hard on the DTV box and maybe a series 4 boxbut they are very slow in these product cycles relative what you see in most other product markets.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

spocko said:


> I was merely correcting an over-generalization about the ease of deploying wired networks. Not sure why you inferred that I was arguing anything more.


I didn't. I was expanding on what you said, agreeing with it, not arguing with you.



spocko said:


> I happen to be one of the unfortunate few who lives in a structure where it is not feasible to deploy a wired network. However you will note that in the 3rd post I suggested a wireless bridge for those who need wireless. Like you, I am not interested in Tivo having built-in wireless.


Which indeed emphasizes our position.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

rwross said:


> Guys...I think the OP has some very valid points.


I certainly never said he was a fool, if that's what you mean. He does seem to be arguing from a questionable emotional bias, however.



rwross said:


> Ok...and I think TiVo is screwing us Mac users too.


That is also an emotional response.



rwross said:


> 1) The feature OP is referring to is the ability to download content to another device for playback.


He referred to a lot of things. Ranting against a lousy piece of software rather than simply switching to a better one doesn't win a lot of points, though, at least not with me. Had he switched and then ranted about how lousy the previous software was, it would be a different matter, but then there is definitely no basis for the notion he is being "screwed'.



rwross said:


> TiVo desktop for PC supports this while Desktop Plus lets you export it to other devices like iPods. I actually have a license for Desktop Plus before I went Mac, but had to buy Toast for $80 to get the same functionality in the FREE version of PC desktop.


TiVo Desktop is a real turd of a program, there's no question about it. How that translates to "TiVo is screwing me" is a bit of a puzzle, though. Those of us who want a decent program (or suite of them) to provide the features of TDT / TDT+ and much more don't bother with TDT. There's no TDT support whatsoever for Linux, but many of us make great use of Linux. Do I feel "screwed" by TiVo? Not at all. Am I concerned there may never be a Linux release of TDT? I couldn't care less. Am I enjoying all the features TDT is supposed to provide and many more without all the problems and hassles? You bet your sweet bippie!



rwross said:


> Now, to add insult to injury, even the dumbed down version of Desktop for Mac doesn't work on Apples' s current operating system. TiVo had to know this would be an issue since developer seeds were available for over a year. It's been almost two months and I can still not stream music or photos from my Mac to my TiVos. This is unacceptable.


So why are you using, or trying to use TDT? It's a pile of junk. The $25 you invested in it was poorly spent, IMO. Rather than beating a dead horse, why don't you just use something decent?



rwross said:


> 3) The benefits of wired connections aside, including wireless in modern devices is table stakes. A combo chip that does wifi, bluetooth, etc, is about $5.00 and should be part of any media device.


First of all, a $5 OEM cost translates to about a $15 or more retail cost. Secondly, I'll happily trade that $5 for a $5 discount ($15 retail) on a Gig-E port and associated processing power. Finally, the additional cost to TiVo in support and trouble tickets is likely to exceed that $5 per box.



rwross said:


> I completely reject the argument made by some that Mac users only represent 10% of the market on two fronts.
> 
> First, while it's true that Mac share is 10% of the broader PC market, most families view having at least one PC in the house as a modern appliance. However, for most people a DVR is a luxury or at least, nice-to-have purchase. Among such buyers, Apple has a much higher share.


What evidence do you have to support this assertion? I suspect it is largely false.



rwross said:


> If you consider TiVo a premium product in contrast to cable DVRs, which I do, then Apple has approx 70% of the share of such purchases. In short, I'd contend that TiVo has a lot more Mac users than 10%
> 
> However, even if they did only have 10% Mac users, the cost of customer acquisition for TiVo is quite high and it is well worth it to invest a bit of effort to not LOSE already acquired customers.


I cannot categorically refute that argument, but it is pretty nebulous. Let me counter with a different perspective, however. For a lot of reasons, not the least of which the fact the TiVo is Linux based and the fact Linux is open software (a distinct advantage when dealing with video, among other things), I suspect a higher percentage of TiVo owners run Linux than is the average in the industry. It's quite possible more run Linux than Macs for this purpose. The traffic in the Home MEdia Features and TiVo To Go forum seem to support this. Actually, 100% of TiVo owners run Linux of course, because the TiVo itself runs Linux, but my point is many TiVo owners also have at least one other box running Linux. I don't hear them whining about poor Linux support. What's more, virtually all the tools for the TiVo which run on Linux either run directly on the Mac (and Solaris, and HP-UX and Windows...) or else have direct replacements which run on the Mac. So what's the big issue?


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

tpayne said:


> 3) If you release another TiVo without building in the wireless adapter that is IT - I'm DONE. I will only be gouged so much.


One thing everyone has overlooked in this thread so far is that many if not most people have their TiVo units inside an entertainment center. Putting a wireless adapter inside a metal case and then surrounding that with other electronic gadgets, solid wood, etc. is one of the best ways I can think of to make that wireless adapter virtually worthless. If my only options were built-in wireless or ethernet, I'd be forced to use ethernet because there's absolutely no way my TiVo would pick up enough usable signal to work reliably over wireless. That's the great thing about the external adapter -- I can move it around to get the best possible signal. Built-in wireless in a device that's designed to be enclosed/surrounded would just be stupid engineering.


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## rwross (Jan 3, 2005)

@lrhorer you have a rather selective evaluation of emotional responses; a number of yours seem to fit the criterion. Regardless, I don't fault that. Just because a response has passion/emotion to it doesn't make it false.

It boils down to this, while perhaps underrepresented in this forum, most people want to turn on their TiVo and have it function as designed without having to load 3rd party unsupported applications.

I found TDT to be a perfectly acceptable if somewhat inelegant solution to my streaming needs. TiVo knew Apple was updating their OS for over a year and didn't fix their software. TiVo advertises its ability to stream music and photos, but it cannot do that for the 60&#37;+ Mac users who have upgraded to 10.6 Snow Leopard.

Finally your point about Linux is, with all due respect, irrelevant even if I stipulate that the TiVo user population has greater Linus adoption than average. Linux penetration is less than 1% so even allowing your point, it's still a small number.

To your other point, I personally would rather gigabit than wireless, but that doesn't negate the fact that most modern CE devices are wirelessly enabled. TVs, bluray, &#63743;TV, some toasters...

Anyway...some people just like to take opposite positions and that's fine. However, Tivo should either fix its TDT issue immediately or start changing its feature pages to indicate that they do not support Macs.


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## net114 (Dec 29, 2000)

tpayne said:


> 2) Blackberry app??? Really? With no info that I can find for an iPhone app. Are you people serious? You think Blackberry is going to mount a "comeback"? With what I've seen in the last few years I expect we'll see a Palm Pre app before a iPhone app. I suspect that comment #1 has something to do with this hmmmmm...


"COMEBACK"?!

I guess you must be a "fanboy" of iphone as well, because fourth quarter results of iphone sales shows they sold 6.9 million units, when the 3G first became available, meaning this won't be the norm. Blackberry sold 7.8 million devices and has been consistent with that average for some time. Yep, just form a statistical point of view, I would want almost 1 million additional users of my app if I had the choice. But, you could believe the hype that there are more iphone users than blackberry users....



> I have been a fanboy for a long time, but you guys are really starting to test my patience. You know what needs to be done. You have a great (although shrinking) community. Help US help YOU - listen to what we are saying!!!
> 
> I HATE being negative so I'll end on a high note - LOVE THE NETFLIX!!!!


You can't be that much of a Tivo fanboy with 6 years of ownership and only one post here.... j/k!


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## Silvester (Oct 4, 2007)

Would like to suggest 2 improvements for all TiVo's.
1) A PUSH option to send a recorded show from one TiVo to another TiVo on my network. Of course certain rules would apply such as all copyright provisions as well as no HD transfers to SD TiVo's.
2) A pause and SNAP of a jpg image picture and put it into a Photo Folder which could be accessed by the TiVo desktop for retrieval, editing and printing.
Bob


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