# Video on demand coming to TiVo DVRs



## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

Check it out :

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/TiVo-SeaChange-Team-Up-to-prnews-14510004.html


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Tivo put out a press release today stating that they've teamed up with SeaChange to provide a method cable company VOD content on existing Series 3 (S3/HD/XL) TiVos.

I'm guessing that this will be available via the TiVo's VOD application.

I don't know anything about SeaChange, but it appears they provide the VOD content to cable providers. Since the TiVo knows what cable provider it's using (via the guide data), I assume it would be trivial to only show VOD programs for that provider.

I'm hoping that content that is free on cable VOD is also free on the TiVo.


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## beady (Oct 30, 2006)

I did a search and it looks like Verizion FIOS uses SeaChange, or at least they did at one point. Wouldn't that be great if I could dump by FIOS DVR and get a 2nd Tivo!


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Trying to envision how they could do it with existing Tivo hardware. I would guess it has to be implemented much like the Tivo/Amazon model is now unless they are planning on leveraging a Tuner Adapter type device to enable 2-way communications with headend.

If they follow the Amazon type model I don't think HD VOD with mpeg2 encoding would be feasible given huge file sizes. However now we know that mpeg4 (H.264) encodings can be pushed natively to Tivos  that would make HD VOD (and HD Amazon) viable.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

It could be an HME with a wormhole to live TV with a channel selection. Or perhaps the IM link could trigger a recording on the VOD channel and the HME would wormhole to the Now playing list. That way no external box would be required. Whether or not HMEs have the ability to make the jumps now or whether it would need to be added to a future release is left up to the reader as homework.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

Insert drool here. Or a basset hound (same thing).


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

I posted the news minutes before, why starting another thread ?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=420375


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

Tivo is working with Directv again and I guess VOD is some sort of requirement for the new DVDRs.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

I see no indication that this excludes the series 2 DVRs. Why do you say it is only for S3?


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## pdonoghu (Mar 6, 2003)

CuriousMark said:


> I see no indication that this excludes the series 2 DVRs. Why do you say it is only for S3?


Probably from this sentence:
"As the only universal cable box that can operate on any cable headend, TiVo HD DVR set tops combined with SeaChange VOD capabilities provide a cost effective way for operators to further differentiate their service with the award winning TiVo Service. "


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

This is fantastic news!! No need for tru2way if they can make this work.



CuriousMark said:


> I see no indication that this excludes the series 2 DVRs. Why do you say it is only for S3?


The press release does appear to rule out series 2:
"The integrated experience will be available to participating cable operators on select TiVo branded *high-definition* cable set-top boxes later this year."


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

pdonoghu said:


> Probably from this sentence:
> "As the only universal cable box that can operate on any cable headend, TiVo HD DVR set tops combined with SeaChange VOD capabilities provide a cost effective way for operators to further differentiate their service with the award winning TiVo Service. "


Yes read that and it implies to me that a multi stream card will be needed which leave out the Series 3.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Nice! And everyone thought it was going to take Tru2Way before this happened.

moyekj, I assume it's just an HME app doing Internet-based streaming. This is how Fios VOD works already. As for other cable companies, it sounds like TiVo will be going to the source -- the cable companies' provider -- rather than using QAM-based VOD. But I could be wrong.

Actually, it shouldn't be that hard to do QAM-based VOD as well, in the manner CuriousMark outlines. I think the ordering is basically network-based already, although given that the cable companies insisted on creating the absurd Tuning Adapters rather than allowing the TiVos directly onto their internal network, they'd probably do the same for VOD.

I see a snag, though: "By teaming with SeaChange we are enabling cable operators without OCAP/tru2way deployment plans to increase the breadth and depth of their offering by quickly *deploying TiVo set-top boxes* ..." This sounds like it won't be offered to existing TiVos! Unless this is some weird business-speak use of "deploying" that doesn't correspond to standard English.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

wmcbrine said:


> I see a snag, though: "By teaming with SeaChange we are enabling cable operators without OCAP/tru2way deployment plans to increase the breadth and depth of their offering by quickly *deploying TiVo set-top boxes* ..." This sounds like it won't be offered to existing TiVos! Unless this is some weird business-speak use of "deploying" that doesn't correspond to standard English.





> TiVo said TiVo-branded high-definition cable-ready set-top boxes that integrate the SeaChange VOD functionality will be available later this year.


I would assume this means this functionality will be in new boxes, not current ones.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> moyekj, I assume it's just an HME app doing Internet-based streaming. This is how Fios VOD works already. As for other cable companies, it sounds like TiVo will be going to the source -- the cable companies' provider -- rather than using QAM-based VOD. But I could be wrong.


 Could well be. That would definitely mean that the source streams would have to be mpeg4 though whereas the VOD streams provided to cable company are mpeg2 transport streams, so a lot of additional encoding work and storage needed if the IP-based VOD is intended to mirror the QAM-based VOD program availability.

Guess that would also mean that the cable companies would be willing to increase or ignore the internet data caps in some cases where they are set too low (Cox for example sets a 10-15GB/month cap in many markets though it doesn't currently enforce that anyway). Opens a can of worms if they were to go a step further and give bandwidth preference to their own IP-VOD data.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Johncv said:


> Yes read that and it implies to me that a multi stream card will be needed which leave out the Series 3.


I don't follow your logic. What implies mcard?


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

pdonoghu said:


> Probably from this sentence:
> "As the only universal cable box that can operate on any cable headend, TiVo HD DVR set tops combined with SeaChange VOD capabilities provide a cost effective way for operators to further differentiate their service with the award winning TiVo Service. "


ahh, missed that. Darn!


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> I see a snag, though: "By teaming with SeaChange we are enabling cable operators without OCAP/tru2way deployment plans to increase the breadth and depth of their offering by quickly *deploying TiVo set-top boxes* ..." This sounds like it won't be offered to existing TiVos! Unless this is some weird business-speak use of "deploying" that doesn't correspond to standard English.


The S4?

Internal modem like a cable box for two way comms?


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

rainwater, I'm not sure where you got your 2nd quote. The press release says this:

"The integrated experience will be available to participating cable operators on select TiVo branded high-definition cable set-top boxes later this year."

This is a little more open ended than your quote. It could mean new boxes, or it could mean existing series 3 boxes. They do specifically mention "Tivo HD" a few times, but it's still unclear if they mean the existing Tivo HD product or some future Tivo HD model. Here are those quotes:

"...today announced that they have joined forces to integrate cable VOD services into the TiVo HD DVR experience."

"...TiVo HD DVR set tops combined with SeaChange VOD capabilities provide a cost effective way for operators to..."

Who know what this really means. The information given is vague, perhaps intentionally. We'll have to wait and see.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

cool news. Looks like TiVo found a nice way around the cable operators to just get the feature done. :up:

the other thing I read into this - looks like Tru2Way is not gaining the traction TiVo would like. It seems that History can be drawn on for how the cable companies were dragged kicking and screaming into simply providing separable security.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> cool news. Looks like TiVo found a nice way around the cable operators to just get the feature done. :up:
> 
> the other thing I read into this - looks like Tru2Way is not gaining the traction TiVo would like. It seems that History can be drawn on for how the cable companies were dragged kicking and screaming into simply providing separable security.


The Comcast TiVo and Cox efforts seem to be showing that the cable companies just can't get this done in a timely manner. Both TiVo and their new partner are ready to go, but it appears that maybe the cable companies aren't.

Remember TiVo's proposal to the FCC to do this in HME and not even need Tru2Way? It looks like it may be coming our way along with Tru2Way rather than instead of Tru2Way.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

slimoli said:


> I posted the news minutes before, why starting another thread ?
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=420375


Because your thread wasn't there when I clicked post.

Even if it was, you don't mention cable anywhere in the title. Technically TiVos can already do VOD from Amazon, et al.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

Johncv said:


> Yes read that and it implies to me that a multi stream card will be needed which leave out the Series 3.


Well Series 3, can technically do M card only, for both tuners, but its a software limitation , not a hardware one. I bet its going to be cross platform.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the other thing I read into this - looks like Tru2Way is not gaining the traction TiVo would like. It seems that History can be drawn on for how the cable companies were dragged kicking and screaming into simply providing separable security.


I think Tru2Way as a standard is making progress as a number of consumer electronic manufacturers have endorsed it as have cable companies. The problem is that there is no TiVo supporting Tru2Way out and there probably won't be one for a few years. Even if there was a Tru2Way TiVo coming out shortly, it would most likely be prohibitively expensive and probably wouldn't sell well in this economy.

With this new method, TiVo can implement the functionality today for existing customers.

As for how I think it will work, see my post in this thread.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

Woohoo, it looks like this will be made available on current hardware.

"First, we have announced a relationship with SeaChange, one of the leading providers of cable video on demand solutions, with whom *we would be able to integrate cable operators' video on demand services with current and future generations of retail TiVo hardware*. This is a significant milestone for the industry, as it provides a way for cable operators to deploy a low cost TiVo platform that seamlessly combines the unique capability of cable VOD with the complete portfolio of broadband services now available via the TiVo service - all without having to invest in a major software porting effort. *This collaboration would make it possible for consumers to experience the benefits of "two-way" cable programming services with existing "one-way" TiVo HD DVRs*. We are excited about this development and its potential to enhance the competitive position of small and large cable operators alike by accelerating the deployment of next generation cable TV services."

The full article is here:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/TiVo-Reports-First-Full-Year-prnews-14516287.html


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

This will be for cable operators who don't wan't tru2way.

By teaming with SeaChange we are enabling cable operators without OCAP/tru2way deployment plans to increase the breadth and depth of their offering by quickly deploying TiVo set-top boxes that seamlessly integrate VOD in a single, intuitive TiVo interface," said Tom Rogers, TiVo's president and chief executive officer.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

spocko said:


> Woohoo, it looks like this will be made available on current hardware.


But again...



> _it provides a way for cable operators to deploy a low cost TiVo platform_


...they speak of cable operators deploying TiVos, rather than VOD being made available to existing TiVo customers.



> _This collaboration would make it possible for consumers to experience the benefits of "two-way" cable programming services with existing "one-way" TiVo HD DVRs._


Existing hardware, yes. But what about existing customers? The wording sounds to me like you'll have to rent your TiVo from the cable company in order to get VOD on it. :down:


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

The percentage of cablecard Tivo customers is so low compared to cable subscriber base as a whole that I don't foresee this being big revenue generator for cable companies and hence not much interest on their part. Couple that with SeaChange only VOD systems and potentially only for headends with no plan for tru2way support I really don't that this is a big deal.
It's an interesting development for sure and will be interesting to see if it actually goes very far...
Personally I don't like the VOD model especially when they are charging $5/movie. I'd much rather see an expansion of choices from Netflix unlimited streaming model.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

spocko said:


> rainwater, I'm not sure where you got your 2nd quote.


It is from a CNet article.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

morac said:


> I think Tru2Way as a standard is making progress as a number of consumer electronic manufacturers have endorsed it as have cable companies.


note the article specifically cited ""By teaming with SeaChange we are enabling cable operators without OCAP/tru2way deployment plans"

so why would SeaChange do this if it was just small time cable companies that have no plan to even use cable cards.
We saw a very local test of tru2way with some HDTVs but it has all gone very quiet since that. I am speculating that cable companies are again not thrilled to be spending money to work on implementing tru2way when it really is more about 3rd parties then perceived benefit to them. Sucks for us consumers.

Glad to hear SeaChange is willing to work out other ways to at least expand their sales, hope that leads to increased sales for TiVo as well.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Here's another article:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2342255,00.asp

This one also has the following quote:



> Monday's announcement will let providers who have embraced tru2way "to take their on-demand offering to a whole new level by highlighting VOD titles within TiVo universal search results," Rogers said.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wmcbrine said:


> But again...
> 
> ...they speak of cable operators deploying TiVos, rather than VOD being made available to existing TiVo customers.
> 
> Existing hardware, yes. But what about existing customers? The wording sounds to me like you'll have to rent your TiVo from the cable company in order to get VOD on it. :down:


I think that is parsing the text too closely. This is an anouncement of the partnership to begin work, not the anouncement of the product that resulted from the work.

I think selected TiVo DVR's means those capable of mpeg4 streaming - such as youTube only on series 3 and TiVo HD.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> ...
> Personally I don't like the VOD model especially when they are charging $5/movie. I'd much rather see an expansion of choices from Netflix unlimited streaming model.


many providers have piles and piles of free vod. (or some channels it's free when you already pay for the channel).

VOD doesn't have to be $ per view.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> many providers have piles and piles of free vod. (or some channels it's free when you already pay for the channel).
> 
> VOD doesn't have to be $ per view.


 Yes but a lot of that free stuff is past TV shows or premium channel movies/shows so if you have a DVR with season passes and/or wishlists for those they seem kind of worthless to me, and most of the rest of the free stuff was just plain junk. Back when I had cable box I paid for a VOD movie once over a period of 5 years and was not happy with the quality and price. The rest of the time I occasionally tried the Freezone stuff. The interface was ridiculously sluggish and items especially in Freezone section were buried down so many levels it was too painful to go digging. I'm sure things have improved since I last tried but in general I haven't liked any of the software cable companies impose on their customers in the past so I doubt it's improved enough where I would like it.
Having a Netflix subscription to me just has always seemed to be a better choice and now having unlimited streaming on top of that is gravy.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

CuriousMark said:


> I see no indication that this excludes the series 2 DVRs. Why do you say it is only for S3?


Because the S2 doesn't deal with cablecards.
Because the S2 can work WITH the current box through various connections (serial or IR), and isn't actually supposed to REPLACE the box, which the S3 is.

I'd LOVE to see this as a software update, just bought an S3 box myself, with an m-card, which is extremely cheaper than the cable box itself. I'd *hate* to have to pick up another box to get this utilized.

There's so much that VOD brings in. Most providers offer "free" VOD setups for the channels you obtain (HBO/MAX/ETC), and this could lead to PPV ordering through tivo (eventually), which would be just ideal.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

twhiting9275 said:


> Most providers offer "free" VOD setups for the channels you obtain (HBO/MAX/ETC)


 I don't get the attraction of that at all. Most of the premium channels repeat movies over and over in different time slots so you can easily set your DVR to record them so why is having them available via VOD with it's much lousier playback capabilities an attraction to a DVR user I will never understand...


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

moyekj said:


> I don't get the attraction of that at all. Most of the premium channels repeat movies over and over in different time slots so you can easily set your DVR to record them so why is having them available via VOD with it's much lousier playback capabilities an attraction to a DVR user I will never understand...


I used to think that way. I decided to start watching Dexter in the middle of S2. I used Netflix to watch S1 and VoD to watch S2. I don't think regular SHO regularly shows old episodes.

VoD may appeal to those customers that don't want to pay to upgrade their capacity. FiOS VoD offers HD movies. Occasionally I'll miss a network show, the ending is clipped or there was some other schedule change. Watching the show on VoD is more enjoyable then watching it on a computer. Can also be used if there are more then two shows on at the same time, although many of us have more then one DVR.

The fact that a feature, VoD, may not appeal to you doesn't change the fact that other customers may use it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> I don't get the attraction of that at all. Most of the premium channels repeat movies over and over in different time slots so you can easily set your DVR to record them so why is having them available via VOD with it's much lousier playback capabilities an attraction to a DVR user I will never understand...


I get your point- but imagine VOD integrates into the new tivo search. You complained above about how you hated the cable company crappy UI and so didn't bother to dig arounr much.

with the DVR function we have to PLAN in advance. Since we all have DVR's here and not VOD- we are all probably used to doing a search for movies once every couple weeks to see what's upcoming.

But imagine your kids get a snow day from school- now instead of having to have planned to have a movie in advance you fire up teh new search and dig for kids movies. You get a pile to buy or rent from amazon, a pile to stream from netflix (which i think alreay has the starz vod offering for the month?)- and you would get the cable provider VOD too- all in one place- all availible instantly.

Listen, i love my tivos and have for many years- and i get along fine without vod. But to knock it just becasue tivo does it's job great isnt necessary in my mind. Are you honestly saying that you would NEVER find a use for it if they tossed it in for free? Maybe you NEVER would use VOD- but i think many would stumble on it every now and again.

There's just as many people who probably say netflix is pointless with a dvr with HBO. And to them they may be right. But maybe people thing tivo and netflix work great together.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

and for the risk of starting a political-esque battle. One could also pay for Howard Sterns "Channel" on VOD- and get unlimited amount of that content for one price per month.

He seems to make money at it, I wonder if other things might go that route or similar routes in the coming years.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> ... VOD with it's much lousier playback capabilities
> ...


curious- what do you mean with that? We'll have to see what tivo and these folks work out, but doesn't cableco VOD come in decent picture quility with the ability to use transport controls like FF, RWD, and pause?

how is that lousier compared to a tivo? Might give up 30 second skip and 8 second rewind but beyond that what is so horrific abotu VOD? (I used it all of 20 mins ONCE when i had a free box while i was waiting on my cablecards- so I'm just guessing about what one cant or can do really)


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

Why use VOD?

VOD allows me to watch shows on my time, watch movies on my time, as opposed to watching it when it's scheduled. Even with 2 tivos in the house, I miss shows, or just don't realize they're on.

Another fine example of this is the HBO series Entourage. Why pay for the channel when I can buy the episodes on VOD? In the end, I save money, and get what I want (the series) from the company.

Many cable companies also have custom channels for local stuff.

There's also much more than just the movie channels available on VOD. You've got event stuff, you've got custom programming like WWE on Demand, you've got Adult entertainment (for those desiring it), you've got alternatives to unbox, you've got a TON of stuff that you may (or may not) pay for.

As for "inferior quality":
I don't see VOD as inferior quality at all. Of course, around here, they're starting to advertise VOD in HD, so that would definitely take away the "inferior quality" argument right there.

The idea is that this doesn't stop with VOD, but it expands to PPV events, so those of us with cablecards don't HAVE to call the cable company to order events, but can do this directly from the box, as if it were a cable box directly.

Now, VOD can only truly work with an m-card, because of the communication streams, but I love the idea and possibilities of it!


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> curious- what do you mean with that? We'll have to see what tivo and these folks work out, but doesn't cableco VOD come in decent picture quility with the ability to use transport controls like FF, RWD, and pause?
> 
> how is that lousier compared to a tivo? Might give up 30 second skip and 8 second rewind but beyond that what is so horrific abotu VOD? (I used it all of 20 mins ONCE when i had a free box while i was waiting on my cablecards- so I'm just guessing about what one cant or can do really)


 First understand I am not arguing that VOD is worthless for everyone, just that certain use models and many aspects of the current implementation from my cable company don't suit my needs, that's all.

As far as trick play functions via VOD when I used it there was a pretty long response lag responding to your remote presses making FF/REW/resume frustrating and inaccurate and of course no skips of any kind (8 second skip back, 30 sec skip forward and skip to tick). Don't recall how many FF speeds were supported but I do remember that for one of the freeview titles I had partially viewed I resumed viewing > 24 hours later, so of course it didn't remember my resume point and started from beginning, and then it took forever to FF back to where I last stopped. Again this may not be everyone's experience with VOD and even for my headend it may be much improved these days.

Would be good if the VOD model via Tivo is indeed similar to the Amazon downloads model, but of course H.264 or VC-1 instead of mpeg2. That way it can be good quality, not exorbitant file size and you get all the nice Tivo trickplay capabilities. If it's streaming like Netflix model then the quality won't be so good and the trickplay functions crippled.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> cool news. Looks like TiVo found a nice way around the cable operators to just get the feature done. :up:
> 
> the other thing I read into this - looks like Tru2Way is not gaining the traction TiVo would like. It seems that History can be drawn on for how the cable companies were dragged kicking and screaming into simply providing separable security.


Comcast said early last year that all systems would have tru2way by the end of 2008. It didn't happen.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

twhiting9275 said:


> Now, VOD can only truly work with an m-card, because of the communication streams, but I love the idea and possibilities of it!


m-cards have no ability to communicate back to the cable company. No Cable card does - that is part of the problem. beyond that even if you had the hardware (DOCIS modem) needed to talk back to cable companies - all the cable companies have different ways of talking so TiVo would not be able to make a box certified to work on all cable companies for talking back and working. Tru2way was designed to fix that by having all the cable companies agree on a standardized way of communicating. tru2way seems to be slow on the uptake with cable companies because it will cost them money to retrofit their network to work with it.

SeaChange seems to already have a backend that works with all the cable companies at least for billing. So TiVo can write an HME app that works with SeaChange and you get your VOD stream from them. No need to communicate back to cable company through the cable. The SeaChange handles the billing and TiVo worked out a deal for either a cut or else pay the R&D costs and TiVo gets a feature and SeaChange gets more business.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

Ok, I was wrong, it happens  . I was under the impression that they were able to handle communication back to the provider, but guess not.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> m-cards have no ability to communicate back to the cable company. No Cable card does - that is part of the problem. beyond that even if you had the hardware (DOCIS modem) needed to talk back to cable companies - all the cable companies have different ways of talking so TiVo would not be able to make a box certified to work on all cable companies for talking back and working. Tru2way was designed to fix that by having all the cable companies agree on a standardized way of communicating. tru2way seems to be slow on the uptake with cable companies because it will cost them money to retrofit their network to work with it.
> 
> SeaChange seems to already have a backend that works with all the cable companies at least for billing. So TiVo can write an HME app that works with SeaChange and you get your VOD stream from them. No need to communicate back to cable company through the cable. The SeaChange handles the billing and TiVo worked out a deal for either a cut or else pay the R&D costs and TiVo gets a feature and SeaChange gets more business.


not sure that it cuts out the cable middleman. some of the articles say something about working with the cable providers.

I'd guess that SeaChange wouldn't want to piss of the cable people with their millions of houses on their systems just to get at a few tens of thousands of tivo users. I'd guess SeaChange would want to make sure cable is happy and give them their cut. All just speculation on my part of course.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

SeaChange claims 70% of VoD deployments.

http://www.schange.com/en-US/Company/Customers.aspx#VOD

Customers include Cablevsion, Comcast, Verizon, Cox, RCN....

We'll see if tivo/SeaChange has to negotiate an agreement with each cable company. I guess that depends if tivo's "cut" comes out of the cable system share of any revenue or out of SeaChange's share.

Wonder if the program is going to come via broadband or via whatever method the cable system uses to distbute VoD to their own cable boxes.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'm hoping it is via the same pipe cable is using so there's the best quality possible. But i wouldn't have a clue how.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> not sure that it cuts out the cable middleman. some of the articles say something about working with the cable providers.


I was not clear in the billing part that it looks like the bill for any PPV would be on the cable bill in how I see it working from the brief description given so far. that leaves the free VOD in limbo from what little has been said so far.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm trying to get excited about this.. I really am. But VOD is a dinosaur IMHO. All I see is a way to rip the consumers a new one via "to watch the final episode of the season, order on pay-per-view". Or intentionally bumping TV show start times to increase VOD orders. Think WWE's constant pay-per-view infomercial spread out to all shows, NO! 

Thus I side with the resistance. I hope VOD never gains enough of a foothold to allow the cable co. games to begin and will download if it ever does. All in all, the most important part of this that I really just gotta say is.......

POST ON DEMAND: To see the rest of this post, send $5 to me via paypal, suckers!


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bschuler2007 said:


> I'm trying to get excited about this.. I really am. But VOD is a dinosaur IMHO. All I see is a way to rip the consumers a new one via "to watch the final episode of the season, order on pay-per-view". Or intentionally bumping TV show start times to increase VOD orders. Think WWE's constant pay-per-view infomercial spread out to all shows, NO!
> 
> Thus I side with the resistance. I hope VOD never gains enough of a foothold to allow the cable co. games to begin and will download if it ever does. All in all, the most important part of this that I really just gotta say is.......
> 
> POST ON DEMAND: To see the rest of this post, send $5 to me via paypal, suckers!


You're confusing VoD with PPV. Many of the VoD titles are free. That includes broadcast shows such as Lost. Generally VoD is provided at no extra cost (or a nominal cost) if you subscribe to the premium channel--HBO VoD is free to HBO subscribers.

WWE has had a PPV model for their major events for a long time. Wrestling is one of the events that helped start PPV.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> All I see is a way to rip the consumers a new one via "to watch the final episode of the season, order on pay-per-view".


content owners would not go for this as they have this thing about bringing all the viewers and maybe more back for the next season.

now the shows on DVD rental business might get moved into more of a VOD/PPV model depending on what money they think they can get off a "second showing"


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

MichaelK said:


> I'm hoping it is via the same pipe cable is using so there's the best quality possible. But i wouldn't have a clue how.


Me too. If it's delivered via broadband rather than the normal cable VOD pipe (using a normal QAM channel), then it will have to have to be delivered at a lower bit rate, and quality may suffer to compared to "real" cable-supplied VOD.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

spocko said:


> Me too. If it's delivered via broadband rather than the normal cable VOD pipe (using a normal QAM channel), then it will have to have to be delivered at a lower bit rate, and quality may suffer to compared to "real" cable-supplied VOD.


 Not necessarily. If it's a download and not a stream then the quality can be pretty high - remember that this is for Series 3 Tivos or later so can use VC-1 or H.264 compression instead of mpeg2. VC-1 AP with 5 Mbps bit rate provides a very decent looking HD stream which may not yet be feasible for general purpose streaming, but certainly low enough rate for downloads to happen in a reasonable time.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

moyekj said:


> Not necessarily. If it's a download and not a stream then the quality can be pretty high - remember that this is for Series 3 Tivos or later so can use VC-1 or H.264 compression instead of mpeg2. VC-1 AP with 5 Mbps bit rate provides a very decent looking HD stream which may not yet be feasible for general purpose streaming, but certainly low enough rate for downloads to happen in a reasonable time.


I would also think it would on the local network of the cable system, so it would streamed locally, rather then across the whole internet. I hope it the quam version though.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

spocko said:


> If it's delivered via broadband rather than the normal cable VOD pipe (using a normal QAM channel), then it will have to have to be delivered at a lower bit rate





moyekj said:


> Not necessarily. If it's a download and not a stream then the quality can be pretty high


You guys obviously don't have Fios.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> You guys obviously don't have Fios.


I understand FiOS increases our bandwidth allocation when we're streaming VoD. spocko question, as it applies to FiOS, would be if Verizon would treat a tivo requested VoD the same as it treats a Verizon STB requested VoD. Would a tivo requested VoD reduce available internet bandwidth?

Same question, will a tivo requested VoD be treated the same as one requested via a cable box? Will stuff that's free still be free? Will the quality be the same?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> You guys obviously don't have Fios.


 For streaming purposes one has to cater to lowest common denominator of broadband unfortunately which is why for example Netflix chooses to limit "HD" streams to at most 3.8 Mbps. There are plenty of ISPs where you can get much higher than that obviously, but there are also plenty of people on low speed DSL and cable tiers that Netflix is trying to accommodate. For higher quality videos it's just more practical at this point in time to make it downloadable so that one can accommodate more households.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

moyekj said:


> For higher quality videos it's just more practical at this point in time to make it downloadable so that one can accommodate more households.


It may be more practical but a number of posters said Netflix's instant viewing licensing agreement with the movie companies requires streaming. I don't think tivo and seachange is going to re-invent the wheel, their current VoD works by streaming. I guess at some time in the future tivo might try to increase the size of the buffer.


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## txporter (Sep 18, 2006)

moyekj said:


> For streaming purposes one has to cater to lowest common denominator of broadband unfortunately which is why for example Netflix chooses to limit "HD" streams to at most 3.8 Mbps. There are plenty of ISPs where you can get much higher than that obviously, but there are also plenty of people on low speed DSL and cable tiers that Netflix is trying to accommodate. For higher quality videos it's just more practical at this point in time to make it downloadable so that one can accommodate more households.


They don't really seem to cater to the lowest common denominator now. They have different "quality" streams for those that have connections that can't accommodate the highest encoding quality. Why couldn't they just bump it up higher for their highest tier?

Jason


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

lew said:


> It may be more practical but a number of posters said Netflix's instant viewing licensing agreement with the movie companies requires streaming. I don't think tivo and seachange is going to re-invent the wheel, their current VoD works by streaming. I guess at some time in the future tivo might try to increase the size of the buffer.


There are a number of "VoD" implementations that don't require streaming. Amazon, XBox and Playstation are just a few and they were able to get licensing agreements. As long as TiVo has a DRM that prevents copying of VoD recordings (and they do) the movie companies should be fine with it. In fact there is already a "keep at most 90 minute" flag on the TiVO which could be used with this.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

morac said:


> There are a number of "VoD" implementations that don't require streaming. Amazon, XBox and Playstation are just a few and they were able to get licensing agreements. As long as TiVo has a DRM that prevents copying of VoD recordings (and they do) the movie companies should be fine with it. In fact there is already a "keep at most 90 minute" flag on the TiVO which could be used with this.


The question is if there are enough customers using tivo for VoD for Netflix, Seachange etc to re-negotiate their existing licensing agreements to allow for tivo D/L. Tivo doesn't even let us D/L Youtube videos.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

lew said:


> The question is if there are enough customers using tivo for VoD for Netflix, Seachange etc to re-negotiate their existing licensing agreements to allow for tivo D/L. Tivo doesn't even let us D/L Youtube videos.


The problem with streaming is there isnt enough saved to deal with bumps, I would prefer just to download it, and just have it expire after about an hr.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I'm trying to get excited about this as well, but I have to agree with moyekj - most of VOD is junk you've already DVR'd or don't care about. Or it's overpriced movies. But even if the offerings were better, the thought of it being an HME app is a huge turn-off. If the ultra-slow Tivo Beta Search is any indication, I won't be using it much because it's too painful to navigate on current-gen Tivo HDs.


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## beady (Oct 30, 2006)

With FIOS if you subscribe to any of the movie channels you get the On Demand channels for free. It gives you more choices of what content you want to watch and when. It also means you don't need to have a Cable Company Box to access the VOD services. I'll gladly dump my FIOS DVR for a second Tivo.


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## thebigshow (Feb 23, 2009)

Somewhere in a very small office at Cox headquarters, a plan is being devised on how to charge me for this functionality.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

I doubt that.
Cox WANTS you to have VOD capabilities, because Cox makes money off of your purchases. They wouldn't charge you just for having the VOD feature, but they WILL make money off of your purchases.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

twhiting9275 said:


> I doubt that.
> Cox WANTS you to have VOD capabilities, because Cox makes money off of your purchases. They wouldn't charge you just for having the VOD feature, but they WILL make money off of your purchases.


But how do they make money off of VOD that is not PPV? VOD has lots of free stuff.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

nirisahn said:


> But how do they make money off of VOD that is not PPV?


It entices people to subscribe in the first place, or helps to retain them.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

nirisahn said:


> But how do they make money off of VOD that is not PPV? VOD has lots of free stuff.


How do they make money off of it in the first place, the "free stuff" that is.
They make money by charging the content creator $X to show their "free content" based on subscriber count, or by promising the content creator X number of people will see their show, based on their subscriber count and averages.

Either way, it's win/win for the cable companies that something like this could happen. THEY get their content out to more individuals, they get to tell VOD content providers (local access, etc) that they have more individuals, they get to charge more (from the provider) for this, and they get to make more off of user purchases. Win/Win.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Exactly. I often see people in this forum complain about STB / DVR costs and how the CATV company dislikes TiVos (true, actually) because they want to charge people for their own STBs and / or DVRs. The fact is, however, most CATV companies make little or nothing off STB and DVR rentals. In fact, many actually rent STBs or DVRS at below what it costs them to deliver and maintain the units. Why? It's called a loss-leader. The amount of profit taken in for DVR and STB rentals is minuscule compared to the tier charges that go with them (which may or may not also be charged to Tivo subs) and VOD / IPPV charges. At best the cATV company may be making $3 or $4 on STB rentals, but some subs spend $200 or $300 a month on IPPV purchases. Some events reel in $50 a pop, although $5 is more common.


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## BigTechDaddy (Mar 6, 2009)

vstone said:


> Comcast said early last year that all systems would have tru2way by the end of 2008. It didn't happen.


Please tell me this doesn't surprise you? LOL


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## muerte33 (Jul 4, 2008)

Has anyone heard any more recent news on this development?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

muerte33 said:


> Has anyone heard any more recent news on this development?


The press release is only a few weeks old. The projected implementation date is later this year, I'll speculate that means summer/fall, if all goes well.

Tivo already streams VoD (youtube, Netflix,Amazon....) I suspect little (if any) changes have to be made to the software on our boxes. In other words I think this will be similar to the Netflix rollout, with very little advance notice needed or given.

I think we'll either hear bad news or no news until a few weeks in advance. Maybe we'll more press releases as cable systems sign on.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

lew said:


> The press release is only a few weeks old. The projected implementation date is later this year, I'll speculate that means summer/fall, if all goes well.
> 
> Tivo already streams VoD (youtube, Netflix,Amazon....) I suspect little (if any) changes have to be made to the software on our boxes. In other words I think this will be similar to the Netflix rollout, with very little advance notice needed or given.
> 
> I think we'll either hear bad news or no news until a few weeks in advance. Maybe we'll more press releases as cable systems sign on.


I'm not sure they would implement it the same way as netflix, amazon, or youtube. Currently all 3 are delivered on the "internet" bandwidth and not the "cable" bandwidth that cable typically uses for VOD. Also right now I think amazon downloads MPEG2 whereas netflix and amazon stream MPEG4. But if I understand currently cable VOD is streamed MPEG2.

So that would mean a totally new system to serve video to the tivo.

So maybe it will be just like the others curretnly playing with tivo so little code change on the tivo, but it might be totally different.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> Also right now I think amazon downloads MPEG2 whereas netflix and amazon stream MPEG4. But if I understand currently cable VOD is streamed MPEG2.


HME video streaming supports MPEG-2 just fine.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> HME video streaming supports MPEG-2 just fine.


I'm not doubting that at all- sorry i wasn't clear. my point was that MPEG2 takes more bandwidth- and that's likely the reason amazon has to be downloaded but the mpeg4 providers can stream.

So trying to stream the same MPEG2 streams that cable puts out on a dedicated qam channel for their in house vod likely isn't going to work well if the public internet is used.

So they may need to re-encode the cable version to a lower bitrate to get it to work over the public internet. So presumably they couldn't just use the same mpeg2 encoded content and send it over the public internet rather then a qam, they would need to have an alternate encoded version (a second system)


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

If the solution involves video over IP then I highly doubt it will be mpeg2 especially if HD videos are part of the mix. I sincerely doubt the solution will be VOD over QAM since that would require external IP interfacing to the cable headend which I just don't see cable companies opening up. So if I had to guess I would say it will be VOD over IP and H.264 or VC-1 compression and using download approach (like Amazon) instead of streaming approach (like Netflix).


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

moyekj said:


> I sincerely doubt the solution will be VOD over QAM since that would require external IP interfacing to the cable headend which I just don't see cable companies opening up.


Tivo is partnering with SeaChange, the company that developed the cable headend software being used by the majority of cable VoD systems. Anything is possible.


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## angel35 (Nov 5, 2004)

When will we get all this??


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## johnh123 (Dec 7, 2000)

Or when will we see tru2way? I am a former tivo user (00-06) who now has become hooked on vod. Not ppv- i've never used it. VOD, on the other hand, we use all the time, especially for kids shows and premium channel HD movies. You can't record everything on your dvr, so it is nice to have a large library of stuff that you can watch anytime.

I'd love to switch back to tivo, but I can't until they can give me as much free vod as I get from comcast now.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

johnh123 said:


> I'd love to switch back to tivo, but I can't until they can give me as much free vod as I get from comcast now.


I don't know how much you get from Comcast, but a) there's a lot of free VOD on what they used to call the "TiVoCast" system (mainly podcasts), along with YouTube and Music Choice, and b) the TiVo is a semi-open system; ultimately, if you can get something onto your PC in a non-DRMed form, then you can get it onto your TiVo. I don't know if this is true of your Comcast-supplied DVR, but I suspect not.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

twhiting9275 said:


> How do they make money off of it in the first place, the "free stuff" that is.


Like any other bundled services, the costs are loaded elsewhere.



twhiting9275 said:


> They make money by charging the content creator $X to show their "free content" based on subscriber count, or by promising the content creator X number of people will see their show, based on their subscriber count and averages.


That's a great big uh-uh!! The CATV company is *charged* by the content provider (not necessarily the creator), not the other way around. Equating the situation to a manufacturing and distribution chain, the content creator is essentially the manufacturer. The content provider is more or less the wholesaler, who may or may not also be the manufacturer. The CATV company is the retailer. Occasionally, a wholesaler may distribute their goods on a consignment basis, where the retailer is not charged for the product until after it sells, but that's the closest the CATV company comes to charging the content provider. In some systems, an exception might be a shopping channel or other similar commercial venues.



twhiting9275 said:


> they get to charge more (from the provider) for this, and they get to make more off of user purchases. Win/Win.


No, they get charged more by the provider for delivering the service to more people. It's a cost of doing business. Think about this: if the content provider is being charged by the CATV companies for providing their content, how are the providers making money?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

johnh123 said:


> VOD, on the other hand, we use all the time, especially for kids shows and premium channel HD movies. You can't record everything on your dvr, so it is nice to have a large library of stuff that you can watch anytime.


If you have time to watch a program, then by definition you have time to record it, and then some. Few of us watch more than two or three hours of TV at most a day. For the latter, a larger hard drive will insure you have plenty to watch, or if not, a video server. I have a couple of thousand programs on my video server, and I record far more on a daily basis than I would ever have time to watch. I never used VOD when it was available to me free.


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## Dmon4u (Jul 15, 2000)

Where will they make money with this :

http://www.multichannel.com/article/190947-Cable_Show_2009_SeaChange_TVN_Pair_Up_For_VOD_Ads.php

"SeaChange International and TVN Entertainment announced a joint initiative that will allow cable MSOs to insert ads into video-on-demand streams on the fly."


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> If you have time to watch a program, then by definition you have time to record it, and then some. Few of us watch more than two or three hours of TV at most a day. For the latter, a larger hard drive will insure you have plenty to watch, or if not, a video server. I have a couple of thousand programs on my video server, and I record far more on a daily basis than I would ever have time to watch. I never used VOD when it was available to me free.


The problem is that some VOD content that Comcast provides free of charge is not on any channel that can be recorded. Some of these are VOD for channels that Comcast doesn't provide and others are simply movies that are solely on VOD.


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## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

Cablevision does NOT bundle for example, HBO on demand, if you subscribe to HBO. Its 5 dollars extra. This is true of all the premiums. So there's potential for revenue there.

Also, there's stuff like WWE On Demand that's 7/month, or Howard Stern TV on demand...all things that command a monthly fee.

Thats how this would make money.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dmon4u said:


> Where will they make money with this :
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/article/190947-Cable_Show_2009_SeaChange_TVN_Pair_Up_For_VOD_Ads.php
> 
> "SeaChange International and TVN Entertainment announced a joint initiative that will allow cable MSOs to insert ads into video-on-demand streams on the fly."


get ready for 'comming attractions' or movie trailers before the movie you ordered.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> get ready for 'comming attractions' or movie trailers before the movie you ordered.


The link says nothing about "before" or "after". I suspect the ads may be inserted throughout the program stream, in concept - if not in detail - somewhat like the national broadcasters do with their internet replays of their prime time series.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

morac said:


> The problem is that some VOD content that Comcast provides free of charge is not on any channel that can be recorded.


True, but I have far too much of truly great content to be sifting through a ton of garbage to get a little more. Anything not available on scheduled channels I can easily do without. If one were allowed to record the VOD content it might be a slightly different matter - although not much different - but as it is, since the VOD content will not be recorded, I'm not terribly interested in the first place.



morac said:


> Some of these are VOD for channels that Comcast doesn't provide and others are simply movies that are solely on VOD.


Yes, that's true. The same is true here on TWC. I have anything between 2 and 30 hours of programming being recorded every single day, and I only get to actually watch TV 3 or 4 times a week, so I'm not going to go to any trouble to seek out other content. If it isn't in a filtered list of movies, a Wishlist, a Season Pass, or a Suggestion, I'm not going to worry about it.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Does anyone have an updated information? The press release was 5 months ago.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

lew said:


> Does anyone have an updated information? The press release was 5 months ago.


We were supposed to have tru2way last summer, or this summer in july didnt happen. So i suspect maybe next year at this time.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Videodrome said:


> We were supposed to have tru2way last summer, or this summer in july didnt happen. So i suspect maybe next year at this time.


Since I posted I read a post that suggests tivo will be using SeaChange VoD for the RCN boxes.

The difference is the Sea Change VoD is an extension of the Netflix/Amazon VoD offerings. An unknown amount of resources has to be allocated to modify software.

Tru2way requires new hardware. Did tivo even issue an official press release giving a projected date for tru2way?


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

lew said:


> Since I posted I read a post that suggests tivo will be using SeaChange VoD for the RCN boxes.
> 
> The difference is the Sea Change VoD is an extension of the Netflix/Amazon VoD offerings. An unknown amount of resources has to be allocated to modify software.
> 
> Tru2way requires new hardware. Did tivo even issue an official press release giving a projected date for tru2way?


Well everything cables does almost never happens. So in addition to tru2way, Vod for Tivo, is probably on the forever release date as well.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Videodrome said:


> Well everything cables does almost never happens. So in addition to tru2way, Vod for Tivo, is probably on the forever release date as well.


as a general "you can get vod on your tivo" in any market- I think you are correct.

But the RCN deal is different in that it is specific to them and doesn't use "cablelabs" standards. I think some time in 2010 we will see rcn deploying a varient of the THD with vod for them.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

OK it's getting late in the year now, anyone know what's going on with this?


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

ferrumpneuma said:


> ALL of the tech and hardware is in the wild not in a lab! WHY... never mind...
> 
> I don't have a point.


Actually You are right all of that technology could work. Its just a question of the appropriate people approving it for that purpose. Smartcard reader needs approval from DirecTV or Dish, the ethernet for a TA interface from cablelabs, etc.


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