# Xfinity - You can no longer order or change a TV Package without getting a X1 STB and Cable Card(s) must be returned.



## bwhitney (Apr 12, 2009)

In the last few weeks, I received three "Loyal Customer" letters from Xfinity inviting me to call a particular phone number to review the exclusive offers available for my Xfinity services. I finally called and was informed there were no offers available at this time . Being on the verge of "cutting the cord" anyway, I called customer retention to see what incentives they could offer. After over an hour on the phone reviewing what was available, I decided on a package and options that were worth staying with Xfinity, until we got to the fine print. I chose self-install and was informed they will send the equipment and I needed to return my TiVo Cable Card, which would be decommissioned upon my order being shipped. I objected as I wanted to keep the TiVo for the bedroom. No matter what the CS agent tried, the system requires the CC be returned. I tried upgrading on the web site and the phone app, and got the same pricing and CC results, the CC must be returned, or turned over to the installer if I chose to not self-install. The system automatically adds an X1 STB that cannot be removed from the order and states Cable Cards must be returned within 10 days.

I made a similar post about this new restriction on the Xfinity Support Forum and was contacted today by Xfinity Support. The agent thought he could arrange for me to keep my Cable Card and still do a package change on my account. However, he had no success. He checked with his supervisor and was told CC must be returned with any package change. With package changes the computer will add at least one X1 box to your account and remove any activated Cable Cards. We found I could add xFi Complete or increase Internet speed if I keep the same TV & Internet package, but the cost is much higher than picking a package with the options you want.

Based on this experience, and the number of people I have talked to at Xfinity giving me the same story, Xfinity is starting to purge Cable Cards by no longer providing CC to new subscribers and requiring existing users to return them if they make any changes to their TV & Internet package, at least in the NE region.


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## Soapm (May 9, 2007)

Yup, I'm grandfathered too. They want us to use their X1 platform but I like my Tivo much better. I think they're X1 is unresponsive and lacks things like 30 second skip.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I just got a deal this past Sunday and didn’t have to turn in my cards. I called in before my contract expired and my price went up and they were able to renew my deal for another 24 months. The only change was my download speeds increased from 600 to 800 mbps, but my modem can’t really handle the faster speeds so that doesn’t matter. ‘M in NI and I didn’t have to turn in my cable cards.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Soapm said:


> Yup, I'm grandfathered too. They want us to use their X1 platform but I like my Tivo much better. I think they're X1 is unresponsive and lacks things like 30 second skip.


This sucks. I hope this doesn't bite me for a very long time. I'm in California.

I had to rent their X1 box for a few weeks when the stock 3 TB drive on my Bolt+ went belly up and I was waiting for a replacement drive. Overall, I was not impressed. There were a few pluses and things it did better than TiVo but overall, it was a huge net negative, besides also costing more (due to box rental fee).


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## bwhitney (Apr 12, 2009)

morac said:


> I just got a deal this past Sunday and didn’t have to turn in my cards. I called in before my contract expired and my price went up and they were able to renew my deal for another 24 months. The only change was my download speeds increased from 600 to 800 mbps, but my modem can’t really handle the faster speeds so that doesn’t matter. ‘M in NI and I didn’t have to turn in my cable cards.


You must have Blast Internet. All Internet download speeds were increased in October and Blast went from 600 to 800Mbps. If the only change was the download speed, then no package change was required, just a renewed contract for the package you already had. Good Deal!


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

bwhitney said:


> You must have Blast Internet. All Internet download speeds were increased in October and Blast went from 600 to 800Mbps.


Yes I have Blast, primarily for the upload speeds. Comcast plans to increase upload speeds to 100 mbps, but only for XFi Complete customers. They are supposedly planning to include all customers at some point. Once that happens I can drop down from Blast as it’s basically overkill for me currently. Nothing on my network can handle those speeds as 600 mbps was already pushing the limit.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

The "system" wants CableCARDs to not exist. CSR's will push that. Two weeks ago I walked into a Comcast office for a client who wanted to update their (very very legacy) service (who had four CableCARDs (don't ask)), the CSR wanted to have all returned for the new plan and provide me with an X1 branded box, I objected (with rate card in hand to show what was possible). They talked with their manager who agreed it was possible to continue to use CableCARDs, and the order was processed (saving my client around $30/mo with a over double triple HSI speed increase).

So, when you can't get what you want, ask for a supervisor to "help" educate the CSR.

Realistically the number of customers with CableCARDs are in the fractional percentage number(s), and the CSRs only are familiar with what they have been trained on, and CableCARDs are not among the trainings, so I was not surprised when the CSR had no idea that CableCARDs were really a thing, but I am persistent.


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## bwhitney (Apr 12, 2009)

CommunityMember said:


> The "system" wants CableCARDs to not exist. CSR's will push that. Two weeks ago I walked into a Comcast office for a client who wanted to update their (very very legacy) service (who had four CableCARDs (don't ask)), the CSR wanted to have all returned for the new plan and provide me with an X1 branded box, I objected (with rate card in hand to show what was possible). They talked with their manager who agreed it was possible to continue to use CableCARDs, and the order was processed (saving my client around $30/mo with a over double triple HSI speed increase).
> 
> So, when you can't get what you want, ask for a supervisor to "help" educate the CSR.
> 
> Realistically the number of customers with CableCARDs are in the fractional percentage number(s), and the CSRs only are familiar with what they have been trained on, and CableCARDs are not among the trainings, so I was not surprised when the CSR had no idea that CableCARDs were really a thing, but I am persistent.


I think you may have given me a great idea, go to the store. It is much harder for them to say no directly to your face! I had spoken to two supervisors in the last week, one at Customer Retention and again when Xfinity Support contacted me today, and neither would allow a package change without going to X1.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

My condo building switched to a new system a couple of years ago where effectively everybody gets free internet and cable, with pretty good packages. At the time, they said I would have to switch to their box, but when the service guy came, he was able to "upgrade" me to the new service with my TiVo.

And since then, my internet speed has gone up twice (just last week it doubled to around 450, although the upload speed remains an astonishing 6). So I'm knocking on wood that if I just keep going with the same old service I'll be OK with my cable card.

Weirdly, when HBO Max launched I switched from the cable channel to that. Before then, my Xfinity bill each month was only for HBO (since everything else was "free," actually paid for by association dues). After, I got a monthly bill from Xfinity showing a balance of something like -1.50. Finally a couple of months ago, I called them asking if they could just cancel the credit so the bills would stop coming. The CSR seemed baffled by the request, and I actually had to be escalated before I got one who actually seemed to vaguely understand the concept. He wasn't sure if it was possible, but was willing to try, and I haven't gotten a bill since so I guess my account is now zeroed out and invisible to them.

One advantage of the new system is that individual condo units can't be metered for monthly usage...literally. They apparently have no way of telling how much data somebody here is using. I found that out when the meter on my account page stopped working, and called to ask about it. It took a couple of escalations to get somebody who understood what was going on, but now I know that any data caps that might be in place don't apply to us.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

I just redid my triple-play last month on a new promo & have never had an issue with keeping my 2 CC's - unfortunately, they DID screw up me being able to have separate voice & internet modems, of which I posted about it @DSLR. 



Soapm said:


> lacks things like 30 second skip.


It actually does have it; you just have to enable it (1) time by hitting EXIT, EXIT, EXIT, 0,0,3,0 on the remote


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I had been hoping to go in and downgrade my plan or get another promo, so I hope this isn't the case. My promo on my Triple Play ran out 2 years ago and they extended it one year without me asking, presumably for covid, but that ran out in 2021, and I've just been paying the full price. I can never see new plans on the website, though, the page just never loads, so that's why I go into the store. I always assumed that it was because we had a cable card.

I just went into the store in July mainly to return an X1 box that I'd had forever and not been using and to ask about any promos (they told me no, but come back in October when they usually have existing subscriber ones, which I forgot to do). They had a heck of a time removing the X1 box from the plan with the cable card still on there, because the system didn't want to let them leave the account with no box at all, but they did finally figure out the right magic to do it. Now I'm worried if I go in looking to downgrade or at least get onto the SurePrice discount, I won't be able to without giving up my card.


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## bakerfall (Dec 6, 2004)

The X1 box is slow garbage. One of the reasons I ended up leaving Comcast is they forced me to add an X1 box in order to add the Sports package (with Red Zone) last year. They claimed only the X1 could tune that channel, but my TiVos worked just fine once they added the X1. It sat in a box on the floor until I ended up dumping cable and going streaming. 

That being said, the writing is on the wall. Whatever grandfathering there may be, sooner rather than later CCs will be dead.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Yeah, I originally only took the X1 box because they told me I needed to sign into Netflix from it to get my free Netflix (they pay for it as part of my cable package). Then I never got around to returning it after signing in and getting it activated until now. I have no idea if that was true or not that I needed the box for Netflix to know I was getting it via Comcast. Whatever Comcast/Netflix connection there is, Netflix certainly wasted no time in detecting that my Comcast service was "canceled" (the service was just moving to the new address) and charged me a monthly Netflix fee when we moved, and it showed up as reconnected again later that day without me doing anything with the X1 box.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

dishrich said:


> I just redid my triple-play last month on a new promo & have never had an issue with keeping my 2 CC's - unfortunately, they DID screw up me being able to have separate voice & internet modems, of which I posted about it @DSLR.


Having separate voice and data modems has always been a niche (two modems) of the small number of customer owned modem(s). Probably even a much smaller total population than those with CableCARDs on Comcast (which is already so small as to be a rounding error). And while if I had a voice line with Comcast I would probably do the same (two modems), I would have no expectation that the billing system makes such configurations easy (the newer billing system interfaces are designed to make it easier for the normal customer interactions (and to sell an iPhone); those customers outside of the norm require using the magic overrides that a normal CSR may not know even exists). And while it would be nice if using the word shibboleet worked, it does not.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

After recent attempts over the phone to get a new deal and being told I had to lose my CCs I went to a store and the manager was able to override the X1 requirement and I could keep my CCs. I have not committed to the deal yet as the new price was well above my current deal but still below full price. They did offer me a pretty good deal if I was willing to switch to their mobile service but that’s not something I really want to do.


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## bashf15 (7 mo ago)

bwhitney said:


> In the last few weeks, I received three "Loyal Customer" letters from Xfinity inviting me to call a particular phone number to review the exclusive offers available for my Xfinity services. I finally called and was informed there were no offers available at this time . Being on the verge of "cutting the cord" anyway, I called customer retention to see what incentives they could offer. After over an hour on the phone reviewing what was available, I decided on a package and options that were worth staying with Xfinity, until we got to the fine print. I chose self-install and was informed they will send the equipment and I needed to return my TiVo Cable Card, which would be decommissioned upon my order being shipped. I objected as I wanted to keep the TiVo for the bedroom. No matter what the CS agent tried, the system requires the CC be returned. I tried upgrading on the web site and the phone app, and got the same pricing and CC results, the CC must be returned, or turned over to the installer if I chose to not self-install. The system automatically adds an X1 STB that cannot be removed from the order and states Cable Cards must be returned within 10 days.
> 
> I made a similar post about this new restriction on the Xfinity Support Forum and was contacted today by Xfinity Support. The agent thought he could arrange for me to keep my Cable Card and still do a package change on my account. However, he had no success. He checked with his supervisor and was told CC must be returned with any package change. With package changes the computer will add at least one X1 box to your account and remove any activated Cable Cards. We found I could add xFi Complete or increase Internet speed if I keep the same TV & Internet package, but the cost is much higher than picking a package with the options you want.
> 
> Based on this experience, and the number of people I have talked to at Xfinity giving me the same story, Xfinity is starting to purge Cable Cards by no longer providing CC to new subscribers and requiring existing users to return them if they make any changes to their TV & Internet package, at least in the NE region.


My 2-year contract expired the beginning of September this year. I was able to get a new one year contract keeping my cc and not having to get an X1 STB. Next year I may keep the internet and cut the cable. However, I really like my Tivo setup with Bolt DVR and two minis. All three of these are lifetime service. I would have to do whole house DVR and pay out the ying yang to get this through xfinity.


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## Yuterald (Jan 21, 2002)

My 2 year deal is up next August (2023) and it's always been a battle to keep the cost from skyrocketing. Now I see I'll have to probably deal with "this" new mess too...ugh....


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## 3 Cushion John (Oct 15, 2019)

laria said:


> I had been hoping to go in and downgrade my plan or get another promo, so I hope this isn't the case. My promo on my Triple Play ran out 2 years ago and they extended it one year without me asking, presumably for covid, but that ran out in 2021, and I've just been paying the full price. I can never see new plans on the website, though, the page just never loads, so that's why I go into the store. I always assumed that it was because we had a cable card.
> 
> I just went into the store in July mainly to return an X1 box that I'd had forever and not been using and to ask about any promos (they told me no, but come back in October when they usually have existing subscriber ones, which I forgot to do). They had a heck of a time removing the X1 box from the plan with the cable card still on there, because the system didn't want to let them leave the account with no box at all, but they did finally figure out the right magic to do it. Now I'm worried if I go in looking to downgrade or at least get onto the SurePrice discount, I won't be able to without giving up my card.


I have my own cable cards, from ebay. Had comcast, but not now. You can get 1 for about $10. So maybe you can ask Comcast if they'll allow you to use your own card? Search ebay for ARRIS M-Card 514517-020-00. Might be worth a try. But yes, I see streaming as the only viable option soon.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

My Triple play package includes the X1 box as part of the plan. It is setting next to my Tivo unit and never use it. But I am not paying for it as a separate charge. My package ia cheaper then streaming.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

SNJpage1 said:


> My Triple play package includes the X1 box as part of the plan. It is setting next to my Tivo unit and never use it. But I am not paying for it as a separate charge. My package ia cheaper then streaming.


It's kinda a tangent, but is Xfinity still forcing people with Triple Play bundles to have cable modems that support voice lines and that the voice line be periodically tested?

For a while this was a big deal to them (because they needed to prove E911 functionality), and then, it seemed not to be?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

3 Cushion John said:


> I have my own cable cards, from ebay. Had comcast, but not now. You can get 1 for about $10. So maybe you can ask Comcast if they'll allow you to use your own card? Search ebay for ARRIS M-Card 514517-020-00. Might be worth a try. But yes, I see streaming as the only viable option soon.


No cable provider other than several small ones allows customer provided CableCARDs in their system


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

SNJpage1 said:


> My Triple play package includes the X1 box as part of the plan. It is setting next to my Tivo unit and never use it. But I am not paying for it as a separate charge. My package ia cheaper then streaming.
> View attachment 76904
> View attachment 76904


That is the same package that I have. They always charged me $8.50 for the X1 box I had for 3.5 years despite it saying that.


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## bakerfall (Dec 6, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> No cable provider other than several small ones allows customer provided CableCARDs in their system


You get one "box" free per account. That would mean the first X1 box would be free, but a Cable Card also counts as a box so I assume you are paying for one of those.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

bakerfall said:


> You get one "box" free per account. That would mean the first X1 box would be free, but a Cable Card also counts as a box so I assume you are paying for one of those.


Sure, but that has nothing to do with the post I was replying to that was suggesting buying CableCARDs on ebay.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

bakerfall said:


> but a Cable Card also counts as a box


No, since Comcast stopped charging at all, for any CC's on but all of their systems...


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

bakerfall said:


> You get one "box" free per account. That would mean the first X1 box would be free, but a Cable Card also counts as a box so I assume you are paying for one of those.


Where I am they made Cards free awhile ago no matter how many you have.


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## bakerfall (Dec 6, 2004)

morac said:


> Where I am they made Cards free awhile ago no matter how many you have.


Then this is a change from when I was on Comcast. Seems an odd choice for something they want to get rid of, but good deal for you


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

morac said:


> Where I am they made Cards free awhile ago no matter how many you have.


Comcast made CableCARDs $0/mo when the location moved to S&E (Simple and Easy) pricing (which is also when "the first box" was not longer included in many/most bundles). While S&E pricing was initially for only one region, at this point I believe it is everywhere (with Comcast, there are always exceptions). Note that if one is on a legacy plan/bundle one will need to move to new plan/bundle to experience S&E pricing.


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## bakerfall (Dec 6, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> Sure, but that has nothing to do with the post I was replying to that was suggesting buying CableCARDs on ebay.


Oops, looks like I replied to the wrong post. Apologies.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

bakerfall said:


> Then this is a change from when I was on Comcast. Seems an odd choice for something they want to get rid of, but good deal for you


Technically, the CableCARD price was primarily (initially called) the "outlet fee", later called "service to an additional TV" fee, but as they have moved to streaming solutions first, that "outlet fee" has disappeared.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

dianebrat said:


> No cable provider other than several small ones allows customer provided CableCARDs in their system


The issue is that (except for the toy operators) the CableCARD needs to be in the operators inventory, which means they (in their billing system) own them, in order to provision them. There is nothing to (technically) prevent someone with provisioning super powers (i.e. ability to edit the database) to add a non-owned CableCARD into the inventory, but normal CSRs, and even their supervisors, and their supervisors supervisor, do not have those powers, but behind the scenes such powers exist (amusingly, once in the operators inventory you would be billed at the usual CableCARD rates, and you would have to return it to the operator when you ended service or you would be charged for a non-returned device).


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

CommunityMember said:


> Technically, the CableCARD price was primarily (initially called) the "outlet fee", later called "service to an additional TV" fee, but as they have moved to streaming solutions first, that "outlet fee" has disappeared.


Actually, the Digital Service or Additional Digital Outlet fee was always a separate line item from the CableCARD fee on the rate schedule (with the latter then typically reduced to $0.00). Comcast simply wanted to skirt any conflict with the FCC's suggested range of reasonable CableCARD fees by charging up to $10 for their use in customer-owned equipment under the guise of instead assessing a fee ostensibly for any CableCARD-enabled digital device on other than the primary outlet rather than for rental of the CableCARD itself.

This remains essentially how the S&E system continues to operate by charging a separate fee for each TV Box on the account, including the first one.


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## wjbatlanta (Jun 29, 2011)

I was a COMCAST customer since the old analog boxes first came into the market. I now live in an area SPECTRUM supports. They hate the cable cards and insist that every time there's a problem, it's the cable card. I finally insisted that a manager take responsibility for my reception issues (it's been off and on for 18 months). 
He came to the house and said he'd have to get their "TIVO specialist" to come take a look. They don't have one tech that supports cable cards in my city (most tell me they've never seen a TIVO before me). Then, the clock starts ticking........they get on the phone with the mothership and after about an hour, they tell me that they have to charge me an hourly rate to further troubleshoot.

I decided to pass and did a little investigation of my own. One thing I discovered - the problem channels were *switched digital video (SDV)*. I disconnected the channel adapter and immediately the problem disappeared. Problem is that two channels (only 2) are SDV on Spectrum's network. Odd I thought - I need this box for two channels?

When I called the manager back to tell him that I found the problem, he told me that Spectrum would be asking cable card customers to return their cards.
I was offered a cable box but WTF?? He told me that Spectrum management has lost most of their relationship with TIVO since XPeri. 
I just bought a new Edge back in March with a lifetime subscription.....he said they may be able to offer me a limited discount when they ask for the cards back but he's not sure when that will be.
......I also will have to subscribe to one of the different tiers at that time.

Wondering if any other subscribers on other cable networks are experiencing the same? I guess you learn the hard way - when you buy a new TIVO with a lifetime subscription only to find out it's useless.


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## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

laria said:


> That is the same package that I have. They always charged me $8.50 for the X1 box I had for 3.5 years despite it saying that.


My bill says the same and they also charge me $8.50/m. I never questioned it because I took "Prem DVR Svc" as the software side of things that required me to rent (or buy?) the hardware like I have to with the modem.

As far as Cablecard, which Diane mentioned, I used to have a fee for both a card and an outlet. They stopped that nonsense a few years back and I now get two at no charge.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

My bill used to have a line item on it that the first cablecard was free and I had a small credit every month for "customer owned equipment", but I don't get that anymore. It does say again something to the effect of first cablecard free now that they managed to remove the X1 box from my account.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

laria said:


> My bill used to have a line item on it that the first cablecard was free and I had a small credit every month for "customer owned equipment", but I don't get that anymore. It does say again something to the effect of first cablecard free now that they managed to remove the X1 box from my account.


Yes, the COE credit was granted to subscribers using their own digital receivers in lieu of Comcast's rental (CPE) TV Box when the CPE was included in the TV service fee (i.e., not a separately billed add-on item). But the COE credit has essentially been eliminated under the new Simple & Easy system since none of the offers for TV service includes the TV Box. OTOH, all CableCARDs are now free of charge under S&E.


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## intoid (Dec 8, 2008)

Okay, I’ve just been looking thru all the TIVO issues and now leaving with great relief. My experience with Verizon has always been fantastic for 20 years or more! I never worry at all with my 5 various tivos with 5 cable cards. No one has ever suggested that cable cards will leave TIVO boat anchors around. I love my easy tv services over the years with all those subscriptions and streaming from Verizon. I wouldn’t change a thing! I do get OTA too with the $35 outdoor digital antenna. 😊


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

intoid said:


> Okay, I’ve just been looking thru all the TIVO issues and now leaving with great relief. My experience with Verizon has always been fantastic for 20 years or more! I never worry at all with my 5 various tivos with 5 cable cards. No one has ever suggested that cable cards will leave TIVO boat anchors around. I love my easy tv services over the years with all those subscriptions and streaming from Verizon. I wouldn’t change a thing! I do get OTA too with the $35 outdoor digital antenna. 😊


Verizon Fios TV and Comcast have been the most TiVo-friendly of all the major cable TV operators. And while I don't see Verizon Fios _entirely _dropping support for CableCARDs soon, they are also now starting to transition away from QAM cable TV (which is CableCARD-compatible) over to IPTV (which is not). This is currently happening in New York City where Verizon Fios has rolled out 2 Gbps internet service this year. As I understand it, homes in areas where 2 Gig service is available who sign up for Fios (or existing customers in those areas who wish to upgrade to 2 Gig service) will have a new style ONT installed. This ONT does not support QAM TV and therefore cannot support CableCARD devices like TiVo.

When Verizon launched 2 Gig service in NYC back in Feb., they told those customers taking it that they could not yet get Fios TV service, but that that option would become available to them at a later date. It appears that Fios TV is now available to them as a streaming IPTV service delivered to a new Fios TV box that runs a customized version of Google's Android TV operating system. In addition to Fios TV -- complete with live channels, cloud DVR, and VOD -- the box also features the Google Assistant plus the Google Play app store for downloading and installing a range of popular streaming apps like Netflix, Prime Video, Disney+, HBO Max, Tubi, etc.

Here's a little promo video for "the new Fios TV" showing the new box in action:





At this time, this new IPTV-based Fios TV box is only available to customers on the 2 Gig service tier. And from what I read in another forum, it may come with different TV packages and pricing than traditional Fios TV (although I'm not sure about that).

But the interesting thing I read in this article about the box is the following:

"The carrier said it will roll out the device to its entire Fios footprint beginning next year."

That strongly suggests to me that Verizon will soon phase out selling their traditional QAM-based Fios TV service and its range of set-top boxes and DVRs. My guess is that at some point in 2023, all customers signing up for Fios TV service will only be offered "the new Fios TV" which is IPTV-only and delivered to this new box. But I'd also guess that existing customers on traditional QAM-based Fios TV will be able to keep that version of their service and their existing boxes (and CableCARDs) for awhile longer. But how much longer? Who knows. As Verizon upgrades their network to support 2 Gig speeds system-wide, I expect that they'll want to reclaim the bandwidth/spectrum currently devoted to QAM TV.

So while I wouldn't say that the end of CableCARD is necessarily imminent at Verizon, I also would urge Verizon Fios customers not to purchase a new TiVo DVR (or an all-in lifetime service plan) at this point. It's uncertain how much longer you may be able to use it.


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## fusionh3_5928 (7 mo ago)

FOMO? FOFO? There are only 4 hours of network shows for my demographic anyway. TV was almost open for a while and it is on its way to extremely proprietary. If my lifetime Tivo dies, if my Fios ONT dies, if I move... I will likely start new with satellite internet and no DVR. Time to get serious about Mac The Ripper and its competitors.


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## jsherknus (Jan 2, 2009)

I still have my own modem I purchased myself for Comcast. I don't want their bloated junky modem. Plus I have a mesh network which actually gives me greater bandwidth than Comcast promises anywhere in the house. If you want maximum WiFi throughput everywhere in your home, you gotta get a mesh WiFi network!


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

NashGuy said:


> As Verizon upgrades their network to support 2 Gig speeds system-wide, I expect that they'll want to reclaim the bandwidth/spectrum currently devoted to QAM TV.


VZ FiOS linear QAM uses a different (GPON) service set than their HSI offering, so it is not like classic HFC where the linear QAM bandwidth competes with the same spectrum. And NG-PON2 (the basis of their new service with can offer 2gps speeds) can coexist with GPON (it uses different wavelengths). However, VZ's VP of technology development and planning has stated that they intend to eventually upgrade everything to NG-PON2. Unstated was the timeframe of eventually, but it is clearly on the planning horizon, and moving to one technology (NG-PON2) rather than having two to manage (and service) is typically seen as a way to reduce operational expenses. As anecdotally some of the original ONTs are starting to fail due to age (some are around 15 years old), I do not think it is at all unlikely that in markets where NG-PON2 is already available they may take advantage of any required service call for an ONT failure to upgrade to the newer ONT to avoid having a future upgrade visit (and then being able to upsell the HSI speeds), which will, due to the new ONT, eliminate the option for linear QAM based TV service to that address.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

CommunityMember said:


> VZ FiOS linear QAM uses a different (GPON) service set than their HSI offering, so it is not like classic HFC where the linear QAM bandwidth competes with the same spectrum. And NG-PON2 (the basis of their new service with can offer 2gps speeds) can coexist with GPON (it uses different wavelengths). However, VZ's VP of technology development and planning has stated that they intend to eventually upgrade everything to NG-PON2. Unstated was the timeframe of eventually, but it is clearly on the planning horizon, and moving to one technology (NG-PON2) rather than having two to manage (and service) is typically seen as a way to reduce operational expenses. As anecdotally some of the original ONTs are starting to fail due to age (some are around 15 years old), I do not think it is at all unlikely that in markets where NG-PON2 is already available they may take advantage of any required service call for an ONT failure to upgrade to the newer ONT to avoid having a future upgrade visit (and then being able to upsell the HSI speeds), which will, due to the new ONT, eliminate the option for linear QAM based TV service to that address.


Yes, agreed. Once NG-PON2 is turned on in an area, I would expect all ONTs installed in that area going forward (certainly for new installs and maybe for failed unit replacements) to be NG-PON2. It would likely anger Fios TV customers, though, to have to switch out their TV boxes and maybe lose all their DVR recordings just because their old ONT failed. (IDK if Verizon will have a way to copy local DVR recordings to their new cloud DVR, like Comcast does. If so, migrating folks over to the new IPTV version of Fios TV would be much easier.)

One interesting aspect of NG-PON2 is that it can support up to four wavelengths, each offering symmetrical 10 gig speeds, which can be combined to offer symmetrical 40 gigs. (Wow!) NG-PON2 is more expensive in the short-run to implement versus XGS-PON, which other fibercos like AT&T are deploying. (AT&T Fiber now offers symmetrical 5 gig here.) But NG-PON2 should have a longer life thanks to its greater upgradability.





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www.fiercetelecom.com





But given that they're only offering symmetrical 2 gig on it now, I wonder if Verizon is only using a single wavelength in the fiber for NG-PON2, while another frequency is used for legacy GPON and yet another for QAM. But can NG-PON2 reach its maximum potential, using all four wavelengths, while also still supporting GPON and QAM? Or must it take those two wavelengths from it? In other words, can GPON and QAM be provisioned indefinitely or will they have to go away in the coming years as Verizon raises their speed tiers and increases total network bandwidth on NG-PON2?


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

Their box comes included in my triple play package with Comcast. So is the cable card I use.


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## Yuterald (Jan 21, 2002)

laria said:


> My bill used to have a line item on it that the first cablecard was free and I had a small credit every month for "customer owned equipment", but I don't get that anymore. It does say again something to the effect of first cablecard free now that they managed to remove the X1 box from my account.


At their site they published you would actually get a $2.50 monthly credit when using your own device. A CC counts as one of those and I used to get it but they dropped it and I've called to get it back - came back for one or two months - then gone. Their CS is a PITA to deal with to explain it so I've just given up.


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## KevTech (Apr 15, 2014)

Yuterald said:


> At their site they published you would actually get a $2.50 monthly credit when using your own device.


That was only if the plan you subscribed to included a box.
None of the plans now include a box so no discount.


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## Yuterald (Jan 21, 2002)

KevTech said:


> That was only if the plan you subscribed to included a box.
> None of the plans now include a box so no discount.


Really!? I did not know that. I will find out early summer next year when my 2 year 'deal' is set to expire which currently includes a box, but no credit given.


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## bwhitney (Apr 12, 2009)

I did find a way around the CC restriction, Xfinity's new web site to make changes to your Package. It starts out with Internet speed, do you want to rent a gateway or use your own devices, do you want xFi Complete, etc. The next section is TV Services; Choice, 125 Cannels, or 185+ Channels? Do you need a set top box? Do you want extra DVR capacity, etc. There are also sections for Telephone, both lane line and cellular, and home security. The new online ordering system keeps running costs, including discounts for multiple services, on the right-hand side of the current web page as you select options. I went through the ordering process online and selected the no set-top-box option. There was no warning about Cable Cards needing to be returned, so I submitted the order. Within 30 seconds of order submission, all I could get on my TV was "Channel not Authorized".

As could be expected, my wife was very displeased, so I called Tech support to reactivate my cable card. The tech could not activate the cable card, so he called his supervisor. The Supervisor told him to manually add the cable card to my order and within a minute everything was restored, including the additional channels (I switched from 125 channels to 185 channels). No cost for the cable card and now I'm now paying only $20/mo more for 800/20Mbps, up from 400/10Mbps, 185 Channels, up from 125 channels, and added HBO Max, Epix, and 150 hours of cloud DVR.

I finally found the new Rate Card for our area and all Packages have been removed and every offering is listed separately and has a price listed next to it, and I mean everything. Internet speed, base channels (Choice, 125, or 185+), any equipment offered for rent, installation options, etc. There is no way to figure a cost without the web order page or calling Customer Service.


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

bwhitney said:


> I did find a way around the CC restriction, Xfinity's new web site to make changes to your Package. It starts out with Internet speed, do you want to rent a gateway or use your own devices, do you want xFi Complete, etc. The next section is TV Services; Choice, 125 Cannels, or 185+ Channels? Do you need a set top box? Do you want extra DVR capacity, etc. There are also sections for Telephone, both lane line and cellular, and home security. The new online ordering system keeps running costs, including discounts for multiple services, on the right-hand side of the current web page as you select options. I went through the ordering process online and selected the no set-top-box option. There was no warning about Cable Cards needing to be returned, so I submitted the order. Within 30 seconds of order submission, all I could get on my TV was "Channel not Authorized".
> 
> As could be expected, my wife was very displeased, so I called Tech support to reactivate my cable card. The tech could not activate the cable card, so he called his supervisor. The Supervisor told him to manually add the cable card to my order and within a minute everything was restored, including the additional channels (I switched from 125 channels to 185 channels). No cost for the cable card and now I'm now paying only $20/mo more for 800/20Mbps, up from 400/10Mbps, 185 Channels, up from 125 channels, and added HBO Max, Epix, and 150 hours of cloud DVR.
> 
> I finally found the new Rate Card for our area and all Packages have been removed and every offering is listed separately and has a price listed next to it, and I mean everything. Internet speed, base channels (Choice, 125, or 185+), any equipment offered for rent, installation options, etc. There is no way to figure a cost without the web order page or calling Customer Service.


I initiated a 'Conversation' regarding Berkley/Jefferson WV Comcast/Xfinity.


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## IraF (Jan 22, 2002)

bwhitney said:


> I did find a way around the CC restriction, Xfinity's new web site to make changes to your Package. It starts out with Internet speed, do you want to rent a gateway or use your own devices, do you want xFi Complete, etc. The next section is TV Services; Choice, 125 Cannels, or 185+ Channels? Do you need a set top box? Do you want extra DVR capacity, etc. There are also sections for Telephone, both lane line and cellular, and home security. The new online ordering system keeps running costs, including discounts for multiple services, on the right-hand side of the current web page as you select options. I went through the ordering process online and selected the no set-top-box option. There was no warning about Cable Cards needing to be returned, so I submitted the order. Within 30 seconds of order submission, all I could get on my TV was "Channel not Authorized".
> 
> As could be expected, my wife was very displeased, so I called Tech support to reactivate my cable card. The tech could not activate the cable card, so he called his supervisor. The Supervisor told him to manually add the cable card to my order and within a minute everything was restored, including the additional channels (I switched from 125 channels to 185 channels). No cost for the cable card and now I'm now paying only $20/mo more for 800/20Mbps, up from 400/10Mbps, 185 Channels, up from 125 channels, and added HBO Max, Epix, and 150 hours of cloud DVR.
> 
> I finally found the new Rate Card for our area and all Packages have been removed and every offering is listed separately and has a price listed next to it, and I mean everything. Internet speed, base channels (Choice, 125, or 185+), any equipment offered for rent, installation options, etc. There is no way to figure a cost without the web order page or calling Customer Service.


I just happened to be looking at the same online ordering system yesterday. Or, a very similar one. (Last time I looked, back in July, Comcast was still using the older plan selection dialog - so they migrated here to Simple & Easy fairly recently.)

But for me, there was no obvious, straightforward way to avoid having an X1 TV Box included. I thought it wasn't going to be possible except through some customer service intervention.

But, I finally found the option. I had to click "Edit" next to the X1 TV Box line item that is listed as "Current equipment"; then have to open a drop-down section called "Don't want a TV Box?" And the way to decline the box is to answer that question by clicking the link "I'll watch on Xfinity Stream." Then you finally wind up with no X1 TV Box. Obviously they've made it difficult to figure out how to do this.

I ran through the exercise both as an existing customer looking for new contracts, and as a new customer (can simulate this, to see what deals they are offering new customers - when logged out, try some nearby addresses till you find one that doesn't currently have cable service).

As an existing customer, it showed me that the new plan would continue to include my one cablecard.

Even though I'm no longer on contract, my plan is currently as good as any new one I could get, and in one year when the discounts expire, the new plan would be much more expensive.

But that price differential might be temporary - they have announced that new price hikes are coming. It's possible that these 1 year bundles are already reflecting higher prices, and my own bill has yet to go up. If my bill does go up, I'll check again.


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## Yuterald (Jan 21, 2002)

IraF said:


> I just happened to be looking at the same online ordering system yesterday. Or, a very similar one. (Last time I looked, back in July, Comcast was still using the older plan selection dialog - so they migrated here to Simple & Easy fairly recently.)
> 
> But for me, there was no obvious, straightforward way to avoid having an X1 TV Box included. I thought it wasn't going to be possible except through some customer service intervention.
> 
> ...


I got my email over the weekend and when I checked my latest bill (12/8/22) it states my bill is going up >$10 a month. The bundles are locked but not the fees and that's what's going up. Broadcast and Regional Sports fees. Doesn't make sense when one of my local stations is crawling at the bottom of the screen that Comcast is going to drop the channel and to call them to prevent this. Why jacking up my broadcast fees if you're threatening to drop one of them! (CBS BTW)


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## bwhitney (Apr 12, 2009)

I also got my new Xfinity bill with the changes I recently made and found another round of price increases.
Broadcast fee $21.00 -> $25.40
Sports Fee $11.00 -> $11.60
TV Box $8.50 -> $10.00
DVR Box $8.50 -> $10.00
Additional TV with TV Box $8.50 -> $10.00
Choice TV Select (Local Channels and a few other channels) $32.50 -> $37.50
Choice TV Select with TV Box $41.00 -> $47.50

This for the NE Region Greater Washinton DC area.

I just don't understand why Xfinity can charge so much for these fees when so many streaming services offer reasonable TV packages without such heavy fees.

I recently read two articles that may answer my own question. The first was a summary of a recent Investors teleconference with the Xfinity CEO discussing falling revenues, and they had a team working on strategies to replace the shrinking revenue. The second article was discussing recent calls to migrate OTA TV channels to streaming and satellite to free up RF spectrum for other services, such as cellular phones and data.


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## IraF (Jan 22, 2002)

Yuterald said:


> I got my email over the weekend and when I checked my latest bill (12/8/22) it states my bill is going up >$10 a month. The bundles are locked but not the fees and that's what's going up. Broadcast and Regional Sports fees. Doesn't make sense when one of my local stations is crawling at the bottom of the screen that Comcast is going to drop the channel and to call them to prevent this. Why jacking up my broadcast fees if you're threatening to drop one of them! (CBS BTW)


I have my price changes now too. Overall my bill is going up $10.70.

My package (no longer in a contract), is going up by $5.00.
Broadcast going up by $2.25
Sports going up by $3.45

The package was one from last year, called "X1 Preferred Pro+ DP", which in English was 800 Gb (called "Extreme Pro+" at the time), and 185+ channels, with free Showtime and 200 hour DVR service included. They recently raised my speed to 1000 Gb, which would map to the current "Gigabit" plan. (My personal modem doesn't reach that speed, but I don't care - this is a home, not a data center! I'd be fine with 400 Mb actually.)

Not impacting me, but the Internet tiers are mostly going up by $3.00; the autopay discount is dropping from $10.00 to $5.00; the TV box going up from $7.50 to $9.00, and voice modem rental going up from $14.00 to $15.00.

Those are San Francisco prices. 

It's depressing. Almost time to start looking at Sling TV again, and switching my Bolt to antenna. I have excellent HD OTA reception here.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Good news: here in Silicon Valley, I still get this reassuring message when I begin to look at changing my plan. Could be because we're near the original TiVo HQ, and there are many TiVo owners in the area.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

You got me excited, because it's been literally years since I've been able to load the account changing page, it has always just given an error. 

I got excited because it loaded up a page that looked like it was going ot actually show me something! But... then it finished loading and gives an error again. Womp womp.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

laria said:


> You got me excited, because it's been literally years since I've been able to load the account changing page, it has always just given an error.
> 
> I got excited because it loaded up a page that looked like it was going ot actually show me something! But... then it finished loading and gives an error again. Womp womp.
> 
> View attachment 77963


No guarantees it won't do the same to me next time I go in there. (I decided to upgrade my cable modem before changing the plan.) The Xfinity website is horrible. You've probably already tried this, but I suggest turning off any ad blocker or other relevant extensions, or maybe just switching over to a browser you seldom use.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> No guarantees it won't do the same to me next time I go in there. (I decided to upgrade my cable modem before changing the plan.) The Xfinity website is horrible. You've probably already tried this, but I suggest turning off any ad blocker or other relevant extensions, or maybe just switching over to a browser you seldom use.


It is truly horrible. It's gotten even worse for us too since we moved in Fall 2021, and somehow our old address is stuck to our account still. Sometimes when I try and load my bills, it gives a weird error about no bill available, because even though my current address is set as the default and the site would say it was displaying the bill for this address, it was still trying to get a bill for the old address. And today when I tried to load up the plan changing page to see if maybe it works now for me, the first thing it asked me was which address I was looking to change the plan for.


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## Yuterald (Jan 21, 2002)

laria said:


> It is truly horrible. It's gotten even worse for us too since we moved in Fall 2021, and somehow our old address is stuck to our account still. Sometimes when I try and load my bills, it gives a weird error about no bill available, because even though my current address is set as the default and the site would say it was displaying the bill for this address, it was still trying to get a bill for the old address. And today when I tried to load up the plan changing page to see if maybe it works now for me, the first thing it asked me was which address I was looking to change the plan for.


I suggest having someone else in your house 'sign up' and you cancel your current plan (when time to renew). This way, all the old stuff is 'gone' and you'll get the best deal since it's a 'new' customer.


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

I got the CABLECARD notification on the 'Change Your Plan' page but there was no way that I could configure anything that might save me money. I DO NOT SPEAK and after Xfinity removed SMS from their VOIP service there was no need for the VOIP. I own my own modem that will do easily anything I would care to have for Internet. I'm billed for 800/1000 and I tried to do 400, eliminate VOIP and retain my XG1V4 and of course the CableCARD(s). Any configuration I did increased my bill by nearly 60$. I have an area code/exchange that XM & Verizon can't PORT so I use AT&T for mobile/cellular.

*** Live alone so there's no cancel and have someone else subscribe.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

bwhitney said:


> I finally found the new Rate Card for our area and all Packages have been removed and every offering is listed separately and has a price listed next to it, and I mean everything. Internet speed, base channels (Choice, 125, or 185+), any equipment offered for rent, installation options, etc. *There is no way to figure a cost without the web order page or calling Customer Service.*


You can indeed use the rate card to compute the net retail pricing (less taxes and other locally-assessed pass-through charges such as franchise fees) for any subscription package by adding up the cost of the individual services and equipment and deducting any applicable "always-on" published Xfinity discounts. This is one of the improvements under Simple & Easy, which was designed to standardize and rationalize customer charges system-wide (although it has still to be fully implemented across Comcast's entire footprint). Whereas the previous pricing scheme offered bundled discounts and an array of disparate charges among and even within the regions, under S&E all of the services are separate and discrete in the form of "packs" with supplemental "add-on packs" for such upgrades as, e.g., the premium channels or More Sports & Entertainment line-up.

But for the current promotional discounting you have to rely on other, more topical sources such as the plan builder web site or an in-store or on-line CSR.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

IraF said:


> the autopay discount is dropping from $10.00 to $5.00


Although true in a sense (the $10.00 discount was never granted for just Autopay alone), this is not the whole picture. Previously there was a $10.00 monthly discount for Autopay and Paperless Billing. But that was changed (as of January 1 of this year if memory serves) to separate out the discounts for those two optional account features, with each pegged at $5.00 so that customers could receive one or the other if not both. However, now in order to qualify for the $5.00 Autopay discount, your payment must be via a bank account; credit or debit cards do not qualify. Existing plans were grandfathered in, but once a term agreement expired, the customer's account fell under the new arrangement.

IOW, if you set up your payment via EFT from a bank account, you will be eligible for the full $10.00 discount.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

laria said:


> You got me excited, because it's been literally years since I've been able to load the account changing page, it has always just given an error.
> 
> I got excited because it loaded up a page that looked like it was going ot actually show me something! But... then it finished loading and gives an error again. Womp womp.
> 
> View attachment 77963





laria said:


> And today when I tried to load up the plan changing page to see if maybe it works now for me, the first thing it asked me was which address I was looking to change the plan for.



That web page, which is keyed to your individual account, does not typically provide the full array of options available to a customer at your location. You are better served launching the plan builder page; when you are prompted for an address, use a different residential address in your immediate neighborhood and identify yourself as a new customer. 

Once you have configured the plan that works best for you (including all of the promotional discounts valid at this particular point in time), you can contact a CSR (or, better yet, visit your neighborhood Xfinity store) and ask for that arrangement. Take a print-out of the initial offer page and the finalized check-out page including itemized charges with you to document the details of your desired service arrangement. 

Although in principal (as the French like to say) some of the promotions are supposed to be limited to new customers, in my experience with a little persistance you can generally use your status as a loyal customer to get the same deals--which IMHO is only fair.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

chiguy50 said:


> Although true in a sense (the $10.00 discount was never granted for just Autopay alone), this is not the whole picture. Previously there was a $10.00 monthly discount for Autopay and Paperless Billing. But that was changed (as of January 1 of this year if memory serves) to separate out the discounts for those two optional account features, with each pegged at $5.00 so that customers could receive one or the other if not both. However, now in order to qualify for the $5.00 Autopay discount, your payment must be via a bank account; credit or debit cards do not qualify. Existing plans were grandfathered in, but once a term agreement expired, the customer's account fell under the new arrangement.
> 
> IOW, if you set up your payment via EFT from a bank account, you will be eligible for the full $10.00 discount.


I’ve never gotten a discount for auto-pay or paperless billing and I’ve had both for over a decade.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

morac said:


> I’ve never gotten a discount for auto-pay or paperless billing and I’ve had both for over a decade.


Comcast owes you money!

Unless there is some unconventional aspect to your account that negates your qualification, you are due this discount as a residential customer. Even bulk-service subscribers who maintain some paid services on their residential account are entitled to the Autopay and Paperless billing discounts. I would suggest that you contact customer service and find out why you are not getting your due; then ask for compensation for the past overcharging. And if you are not satisfied with the response, contact Tom Karinshak (Comcast Cable EVP and Chief Customer Experience Officer) and his minions will task the Regional Executive Team (RET) with investigating the matter and getting back to you.

As it happens I had occasion to bring a small billing matter to Tom's attention this past week, and I got an email response from his office the next day and a phone call from a very astute and helpful RET rep the next day after that. This was a very minor and niggling issue, but it received first-class corporation attention.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

chiguy50 said:


> Comcast owes you money!
> 
> Unless there is some unconventional aspect to your account that negates your qualification, you are due this discount as a residential customer.


Is this in any of Comcast’s documentation? I’ve never seen anything mentioned anywhere about a discount.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

morac said:


> Is this in any of Comcast’s documentation? I’ve never seen anything mentioned anywhere about a discount.


Of course it is. You can find it on any web page containing subscription details. What exactly is the nature of your Comcast subscriptions (services and any term agreements)?

Here is one blurb with the deets for any of the current CATV or HSI service tiers with pricing that reflects inclusion of the $10.00 discount:

"_Paperless Billing and Automatic Payments with bank account required, otherwise monthly service charge automatically increases by $10 (or $5 if enrolling with credit or debit card information). Discount will appear on statement_"

And here is how it is entered on the monthly billing statement:


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

I went back and looked at my bill to figure out why I wasn’t getting a discount, and noted because I’ve had automatic payments for quite awhile. So it says “with bank account” (I guess using a credit card doesn’t count).


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I have had paperless billing with Comcast for as long as I've had Comcast (like 20 years) and have never gotten a discount either.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

laria said:


> I have had paperless billing with Comcast for as long as I've had Comcast (like 20 years) and have never gotten a discount either.


You have to have BOTH paperless & autopay for these discounts...


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I do, to a credit card. But I can't find anything in the plan description on the bill that mentions any kind of discount for any of that.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

dishrich said:


> You have to have BOTH paperless & autopay for these discounts...


You also have to be on a (recent) S&E pricing plan (in at least some locations). Depending on the specific bundle (and discount) one is currently on moving to S&E pricing can be result in a lower, higher, or mostly the same, bill. I have one client who moved from a (very very very) legacy plan to a S&E plan and saved 15% even when getting a more than a double increase in HSI speeds (both download and upload). For another client it was mostly a wash (a little bit lower bill, but nothing to write home about).


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

javabird said:


> I went back and looked at my bill to figure out why I wasn’t getting a discount, and noted because I’ve had automatic payments for quite awhile. So it says “with bank account” (I guess using a credit card doesn’t count).


Fios has the same requirement.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

javabird said:


> I went back and looked at my bill to figure out why I wasn’t getting a discount, and noted because I’ve had automatic payments for quite awhile. So it says “with bank account” (I guess using a credit card doesn’t count).


The credit/debit card option was eliminated from qualification for the Autopay discount in favor of EFT from a bank account as of January this year (although existing plans were grandfathered in).



laria said:


> I have had paperless billing with Comcast for as long as I've had Comcast (like 20 years) and have never gotten a discount either.


If your region is not in the Simple & Easy system, it is possible that this discount is not (yet) available (see below). But I would suggest that you make some inquiries to verify whether your account qualifies.



dishrich said:


> You have to have BOTH paperless & autopay for these discounts...


That is not quite accurate, although technically correct in that you must have enabled both features. As of this year, the two discounts have in at least some sense been decoupled at $5.00 apiece so that you can still get the Paperless Billing discount without qualifying for the one for Autopay (i.e., using any payment method other than EFT from a bank account).



laria said:


> I do, to a credit card. But I can't find anything in the plan description on the bill that mentions any kind of discount for any of that.


As stated above, I suggest that you contact Comcast billing to inquire. But in any case, you will not get the Autopay discount unless you change your payment method to EFT.



CommunityMember said:


> You also have to be on a (recent) S&E pricing plan (in at least some locations).


You raise an excellent point. As with all things Comcast, service particulars and pricing can vary (although they are slowly becoming standardized throughout the Comcast footprint, with the Western Region converting to S&E this year). Sometimes I forget to add the caveat that YMMV. 



CommunityMember said:


> Depending on the specific bundle (and discount) one is currently on moving to S&E pricing can be result in a lower, higher, or mostly the same, bill. I have one client who moved from a (very very very) legacy plan to a S&E plan and saved 15% even when getting a more than a double increase in HSI speeds (both download and upload). For another client it was mostly a wash (a little bit lower bill, but nothing to write home about).


The current S&E discounted pricing for HSI here in the Central Division has been very attractive for some time now, with the particulars changing from month to month. For example, right now you can get Fast (400Mbps, retail price $92 as of today) for just $30 for the first 12 months with no term agreement (i.e., no ETF) plus a $75 prepaid VISA debit card; I can't beat that even on a bulk-service deal. N.B.: This pricing includes the $10 ABP/PB discount.

And customers who also maintain Xfinity Mobile service qualify for a further discount of $25 p.m., bringing the monthly total down to just $5.00, which is covered (and then some) by the prepaid card. Essentially, you can get 400Mbps HSI from Comcast for free for the first year. And this deal was even better in some respects last month, when it included xFi Complete for the first year (free gateway and no data limit, a $25 value) instead of the debit card.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

chiguy50 said:


> The credit/debit card option was eliminated from qualification for the Autopay discount in favor of EFT from a bank account as of January this year (although existing plans were grandfathered in).


Not quite true; if you use a CC, you only get a $5 discount, while EFT gets you $10. See this from about a year ago:


https://forums.xfinity.com/conversations/billing/10-auto-pay-and-eco-bill-discount-moved-to-5/61fd8b8fe5fd17166fe4ae9f





chiguy50 said:


> That is not quite accurate. As of this year, the two discounts have been decoupled at $5.00 apiece so that you can still get the Paperless Billing discount without qualifying for the one for Autopay.


See above; you still have to have AT LEAST CC AP to even get the $5, while EFT gets you the full $10. I know this because I have CC AP & only get the $5 discount, even with paperless also. If I went back to getting paper, I would loose the $5 discount.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

dishrich said:


> Not quite true; if you use a CC, you only get a $5 discount, while EFT gets you $10
> 
> 
> See above; you still have to have AT LEAST CC AP to even get the $5, while EFT gets you the full $10. I know this because I have CC AP & only get the $5 discount, even with paperless also. If I went back to getting paper, I would loose the $5 discount.


I had already edited the wording of my last post to make it more accurate. See above.

ETA: Here's how these discounts are described on the current Xfinity Services and Pricing document (effective 18 Dec 22):


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

How do you find that rate card? I used to be able to find it easily, but I've been having problems finding it since they redesigned the website.

Edit: Never mind... Google can find it even if Comcast can't. Our area (New England) must have just gone to this Simple and Easy thing... I looked at the rate card not that long ago and it still listed the plans like the one we are on (Super Triple Play, etc)

Edit 2: I guess it's not even effective yet... it's as of December 20, 2022 (tomorrow).


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## KevTech (Apr 15, 2014)

laria said:


> How do you find that rate card?


Comcast Rates


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

laria said:


> Edit 2: I guess it's not even effective yet... it's as of December 20, 2022 (tomorrow).


Well, something equivalent may have already been effective, but the current rate card can be hard to find when another is about to be effective as Comcast only shows the latest published one, even if it is not yet in effect (once a month I try to remember to pull the rate card in the case the upcoming one is different than the one I currently have).


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Looking at my rate card I also see it is very different from when I looked at it last. It is dated Dec 20 as well.

I’m not sure how it compares to what I have now. I have a digital preferred Blast (800/20) bundle for $120. I guess that equates to “popular TV” and either “fast” or “superfast” Internet (have no idea what the speeds of these are). Combined with a $20 multiple item discount and $5 autopay discount that would still be at least $30 more than what I’m paying now and $10 more post contract.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

morac said:


> I have a digital preferred Blast


It actually equates to the current Ultimate TV, which before that was just called Preferred, which before that was Digitial Preferred
Popular TV equates to the previous Extra TV, which previous to that was Digital Starter
Your current 800/20 is the Superfast tier


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

CommunityMember said:


> Well, something equivalent may have already been effective, but the current rate card can be hard to find when another is about to be effective as Comcast only shows the latest published one, even if it is not yet in effect (once a month I try to remember to pull the rate card in the case the upcoming one is different than the one I currently have).


There used to be a link right on my account page to the card, but since they redesigned the site it’s been very hard to find information at all. I can’t even find how to show my current services without even just opening the bill PDF. I had found the card that KevTech linked by googling something like “Comcast rate card my city”, but I was asking more how do you navigate to it because I couldn’t find how someone would just get to it by clicking in the it account like before.

The card up until at least November did not have the autopay discount on there and the plans were all the much older Triple Play ones that I got 4 years ago… I knew this because I had been looking at it to see if there were any discounts listed on it that I could try to get out of the store employees if they wouldn’t give me a better package deal (all there was was the discount for signing a contract, like $15 a month).


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

dishrich said:


> It actually equates to the current Ultimate TV, which before that was just called Preferred, which before that was Digitial Preferred
> Popular TV equates to the previous Extra TV, which previous to that was Digital Starter
> Your current 800/20 is the Superfast tier


That’s even worse. Ultimate is $90 here and Superfast is $107. There’s a $20 discount for having 2 services, but that’s still $177 (or $172 with paperless billing). I’m assuming those don’t include the franchise and sports fees. 

I currently have a $20 discount for 2 years, but even without that my SELECT+ bundle is $139.99, which is significantly cheaper than the equivalent S&E packages. I don’t see how that’s an improvement. 

I got a notice that Select+ is going up to $141.99 next month, but that’s still cheaper. I’m assuming they won’t increase me since I’m under contract, but I wouldn’t put it past them as the it says $20 contract discount. 

The service fees are just obnoxious at this point. I’m paying $34.65 for something that’s free when I use an antenna and in fact I have a TiVo hooked up to an antenna which I use. Unfortunately there’s no way to have Comcast stop giving you the channels and drop the fee short of cancelling TV service. At which point my base price for Internet would be close to what I’m paying now for tv and Internet minus the fees.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Yeah, I also got a notice that my Super+ is going up from 199.99 to 201.99. Right now I pay $235.07, so $35+ in fees. I will need to sit down and do some math... I have Gigabit internet, and if I just get Popular TV, I think that's $182, minus $20 for 2 services, minus $10 for billing discounts. So, $152, but now I'll have to pay for Netflix, HBO Max, Showtime, and Peacock if I want any of those back, and I don't have the discount for Xfinity Mobile anymore.

To bring it back on topic, though, it doesn't look like the cablecard should be an issue though!


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Is Peacock Premium not included in S&E plans? Those plans are sounding worse and worse all the time.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

morac said:


> Is Peacock Premium not included in S&E plans? Those plans are sounding worse and worse all the time.


I don’t know, maybe it is… I didn’t see it mentioned on the card at all.


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## dishrich (Jan 16, 2002)

morac said:


> Is Peacock Premium not included in S&E plans?


It very much IS...


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

morac said:


> That’s even worse. Ultimate is $90 here and Superfast is $107. There’s a $20 discount for having 2 services, but that’s still $177 (or $172 with paperless billing). I’m assuming those don’t include the franchise and sports fees.
> 
> I currently have a $20 discount for 2 years, but even without that my SELECT+ bundle is $139.99, which is significantly cheaper than the equivalent S&E packages. I don’t see how that’s an improvement.


Right now (and this has generally held for at least the last four or five years) the best bargain in Comcast HSI is in the tier that they are now marketing under S&E as "Fast" (currently 400Mbps, which should be more than adequate for at least 95% of users).

A bundle with Fast HSI and Popular TV should come in at around $130 p.m. including all discounts (promotional and "always on" as well as Autopay/PB), taxes and fees. Any equipment other than a CableCARD or additional services would be extra. Upgrading to Ultimate TV would entail an increase of $20 (plus tax). And you can lower that $130 by $25 if you also subscribe to Xfinity Mobile service. Upgrading Fast to Superfast would mean a bump of $40 (but right now that would include xFi Complete). These prices are good for 12 months with no term contract (i.e., not subject to an ETF)



morac said:


> I got a notice that Select+ is going up to $141.99 next month, but that’s still cheaper. I’m assuming they won’t increase me since I’m under contract, but I wouldn’t put it past them as the it says $20 contract discount.


Your service fee is fixed for the length of your contract ("service agreement"). When the retail rates are raised, even the promotional discounts then in effect are raised commensurately so that the end price with discounts will not change.



morac said:


> The service fees are just obnoxious at this point. I’m paying $34.65 for something that’s free when I use an antenna and in fact I have a TiVo hooked up to an antenna which I use. Unfortunately there’s no way to have Comcast stop giving you the channels and drop the fee short of cancelling TV service. At which point my base price for Internet would be close to what I’m paying now for tv and Internet minus the fees.


Don't complain too loudly. The combined BTV and RS fees in most regions comes to around $45 p.m.



morac said:


> Is Peacock Premium not included in S&E plans? Those plans are sounding worse and worse all the time.


Peacock Premium is included. Premium Plus (ad-free) is an additional $5.00 p.m.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

laria said:


> There used to be a link right on my account page to the card, but since they redesigned the site it’s been very hard to find information at all. I can’t even find how to show my current services without even just opening the bill PDF. I had found the card that KevTech linked by googling something like “Comcast rate card my city”, but I was asking more how do you navigate to it because I couldn’t find how someone would just get to it by clicking in the it account like before.
> 
> The card up until at least November did not have the autopay discount on there and the plans were all the much older Triple Play ones that I got 4 years ago… I knew this because I had been looking at it to see if there were any discounts listed on it that I could try to get out of the store employees if they wouldn’t give me a better package deal (all there was was the discount for signing a contract, like $15 a month).


You're right; the web page redesign that launched a few months ago is a chaotic mess IMHO. But if you click on or bookmark this link it should take you to the .pdf for the current published rate card for your area assuming that you have already logged in to your account on that web browser (otherwise you will have to sign in first before the rate card can be generated).



laria said:


> Yeah, I also got a notice that my Super+ is going up from 199.99 to 201.99. Right now I pay $235.07, so $35+ in fees. I will need to sit down and do some math... I have Gigabit internet, and if I just get Popular TV, I think that's $182, minus $20 for 2 services, minus $10 for billing discounts. So, $152, but now I'll have to pay for Netflix, HBO Max, Showtime, and Peacock if I want any of those back, and I don't have the discount for Xfinity Mobile anymore.


Do you subscribe to ALL of those services through Comcast and, if so, are they bundled into your service fee or add-on features being billed separately?

If you give us your zip code or city of residence we can tell you precisely what your cost options would be depending on your needs/preferences.

ETA: The new S&E promotional deals all include eligibility for the XM discount, even the lowest HSI tier of Contect (75Mbps).


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

chiguy50 said:


> Right now (and this has generally held for at least the last four or five years) the best bargain in Comcast HSI is in the tier that they are now marketing under S&E as "Fast" (currently 400Mbps, which should be more than adequate for at least 95% of users).


Personally I don’t care that much about download speeds, it’s upload speeds that I care about. Xfinity doesn’t advertise upload speeds, but I’ve read the 400 mbps (fast) comes with 10 mbps upload speeds. My upload speeds (superfast) are 20 mbps. Unless I get Xfi complete, in which case uploads are 100 mbps. 









Comcast’s new higher upload speeds require $25-per-month xFi Complete add-on


10Mbps uploads become 100Mbps—but only with xFi Complete hardware rental plan.




arstechnica.com





According to my rate card, “Fast” is $102 a month and “SuperFast” is $107, so for $5 more a month I get double the download and upload speeds. As such, at least in my area (NE), “fast” is a sucker plan.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

morac said:


> Personally I don’t care that much about download speeds, it’s upload speeds that I care about. Xfinity doesn’t advertise upload speeds, but I’ve read the 400 mbps (fast) comes with 10 mbps upload speeds. My upload speeds (superfast) are 20 mbps. Unless I get Xfi complete, in which case uploads are 100 mbps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, if upload speeds are critically important to you, then I can understand your preference although in that case you might really be better served with symmetrical HSI. If you can not find a provider for (or don't feel you can afford) fiber optic service then you will probably have to wait until Comcast implements Full Duplex (FDX) DOCSIS in your area, which might be in the offing within the next 12 to 24 months.

OTOH, up until a week or so ago, Comcast was offering xFi Complete on the Fast promotional deal, and it's possible that offer could come back at some point.

Another option would be to rent the Comcast gateway (for $15 p.m. plus tax), which should also get you the 100Mbps upload speed without having to add xFi Complete or subscribe to a higher speed tier.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

chiguy50 said:


> Yeah, if upload speeds are critically important to you, then I can understand your preference although in that case you might really be better served with symmetrical HSI. If you can not find a provider for (or don't feel you can afford) fiber optic service then you will probably have to wait until Comcast implements Full Duplex (FDX) DOCSIS in your area, which might be in the offing within the next 12 to 24 months.


The article I linked to states that Comcast said the faster upload speeds are coming to customer modems late next year. I guess we’ll see.

I’m not sure if I’ll need a Docsis 3.1 modem or not. I originally bought one, but both my download and upload speeds dropped with it so I went with a Docsis 3.0 modem. I think that maxes out at about 600 mbps, but my Wi-Fi seems to max out at 500 mbps. That’s why the download speeds don’t matter much to me. 

I really don’t do much uploading in general, but with all the cloud stuff these days upload is important. Uploading a lot of movies/photos is actually faster over 4G/5G than it is over Comcast near my house.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Just a reminder, when measuring and quoting plans, comcast overprovisiones by at least 20% across the board. ie, a 10mbps up plan will run at 12mbps. A 15mbps will run at 18mbps, etc.. etc.. 300mbps down will generally run at 360mbps. etc..

They scale pretty linearly all the way up to 1200x35, which runs at basically 1400x42.

They started doing this a long time ago when customers complained they couldn't get the speeds they were paying for (because running full speed is hard), and ranting about only getting 90mbps on a 100mbps plan. So comcast provisiones the system at 120mbps, the customer can "only" get up to 110, which is above the 100 he's paying for, and he's happy. In one swell foop, with generous overprivisioning, they managed to reduce their "not meeting the rated speeds" complaints by 98% across the board. (I've seen a internal chart somewhere)

They didn't invent the idea of course. But they adopted it whole hog.

[ I have no idea if this applies to their symmetric fiber options. I suspect it does not. But I suspect it will apply to their 2gbps multi-gig docsis plans ]


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

chiguy50 said:


> You're right; the web page redesign that launched a few months ago is a chaotic mess IMHO. But if you click on or bookmark this link it should take you to the .pdf for the current published rate card for your area assuming that you have already logged in to your account on that web browser (otherwise you will have to sign in first before the rate card can be generated).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are all bundled in my plan right now. I didn’t see an Xfinity Mobile discount on the card anywhere but that’s good to know it’s still there. Right now I get a $12 credit for having XM.

We like having the gigabit internet because of the higher cap… we use about 1 TB of data a month.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

laria said:


> They are all bundled in my plan right now. I didn’t see an Xfinity Mobile discount on the card anywhere but that’s good to know it’s still there. Right now I get a $12 credit for having XM.


Under S&E there is no more bundling; every service is a separate "pack" that can be supplemented with add-on packs (such as More Sports & Entertainment), and such items as equipment or premium channel subscriptions are discrete extras. In lieu of the bundling offers, S&E provides ("always-on") multi-service discounts in addition to various transitory promotional discounts. But the latter can be very substantial and so it can be worthwhile to keep tabs on current offers in your area. Note that you can always switch plans without penalty since Comcast will not impose an ETF under a contract agreement as long as you maintain at least one of their services on your account.

Just to put matters into perspective, your current (legacy) bundle may represent a bargain for you but it does entail some disadvantages. You are obligated to pay the full $200* every month for the combination of services and features, whether or not you want or need all of them at any particular time. But since under S&E everything is a la carte, you have more flexibility--with the concomitant savings. For example, if you add Showtime or HBO to an S&E plan, you can stop and restart the subscription at any time and you will only be assessed a pro-rata charge for the number of days in the billing cycle that the subscription was active (I don't believe Netflix will be pro-rated, however). And Peacock Premium is included free of charge anyway.

*You should not be subject to the announced fee increase as long as you remain under a term agreement.



laria said:


> We like having the gigabit internet because of the higher cap… we use about 1 TB of data a month.


The 1.2TB data cap, where it is imposed, applies to every HSI speed tier. And you can exceed it once every 12 months without penalty.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

chiguy50 said:


> The 1.2TB data cap, where it is imposed, applies to every HSI speed tier. And you can exceed it once every 12 months without penalty.


You can also pay extra or sign up for xFi Complete to eliminate it.


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## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

morac said:


> Is Peacock Premium not included in S&E plans? Those plans are sounding worse and worse all the time.


For now Peacock is included, however, they are supposed to be taking that away soon.









Comcast to End Peacock Premium Free Promotion for Xfinity Customers


Sorry, Comcast Xfinity customers: Your free access to the Peacock Premium streaming service is going to come to an end. Jeff Shell, CEO of NBCUniversal, said that making Peacock available to Comcas…




variety.com


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

kbmb said:


> For now Peacock is included, however, they are supposed to be taking that away soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If they want to dramatically cut their subscriber numbers I say go ahead. I almost never watch Peacock.


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## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

morac said:


> If they want to dramatically cut their subscriber numbers I say go ahead. I almost never watch Peacock.


Agree that I think this will cause a lot of people to drop the ad-free version and maybe the whole thing. They don't have a ton a Peacock exclusives, although Poker Face is getting big buzz and is coming in Jan.

I still keep most of these streaming platforms (ad-free) on top of Xfinity TV just because I can't stand how bad the Xfinity 720p signal is on a 4K TV. I'm basically paying for TV still so the Mrs. can record the news etc and use TiVo. We watch most all programs via streaming.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

kbmb said:


> Agree that I think this will cause a lot of people to drop the ad-free version and maybe the whole thing. They don't have a ton a Peacock exclusives, although Poker Face is getting big buzz and is coming in Jan.
> 
> I still keep most of these streaming platforms (ad-free) on top of Xfinity TV just because I can't stand how bad the Xfinity 720p signal is on a 4K TV. I'm basically paying for TV still so the Mrs. can record the news etc and use TiVo. We watch most all programs via streaming.


I very rarely watch Peacock, but they do have some attractive programming from their deep NBCU library and have offered some very interesting exclusive first-release streaming movies over the past year (including _The Outfit_ and the recent _Nope_ as well as lesser titles such as _Jurassic World Dominion_ and _Ticket to Paradise_). Furthermore, the movies are uninterrupted by commercial breaks even on the ad-supported Peacock Premium tier (I would guess that they are not available on the basic Peacock service that is free to the general public) with just a few minutes of ads at the outset of the stream.

Peacock has other exclusive programming such as the _The Office Superfan Episodes_ (the first five seasons (so far) of _The Office_ extended with extensive footage that had been cut from the shows that aired on the network) and original series such as _A Friend of the Family_. I have also enjoyed _Shrink_, _Wilfred_, and Save Me, among others.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

morac said:


> The article I linked to states that Comcast said the faster upload speeds are coming to customer modems late next year. I guess we’ll see.


If upload speeds are important to you (and you live in a location where the service is offered), you may choose to rent the gateway now rather than waiting for some future date (there was also talk about customer modems not getting the full upload speeds, only partial increases, but as Comcast has a history of modifying offerings between first statements and actual releases no one will know anything until customer owned modems are actually enabled, whenever that may be(*)).


(*) Part of the issue is that customer owned modems do not (yet?) have Comcast's in-Home Assessment Test (iHAT) support, which validates the residence to test for capability, enable, and roll-back as necessary, mid-split without impacting other devices in the residence. iHAT works with their own gateways today. In theory iHAT support can be updated to support customer owned modems, but that is going to have to go through testing/validation modem by modem. Comcast choose to start with their roll-outs with their own modems, which are the vast majority of their customer base (enthusiasts/prosumers/techies may be vocal, but they are not the majority of customers), and for which they have full control over the device(s) so they know exactly what is what (and can update on their own time-frame as needed).


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## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

chiguy50 said:


> I very rarely watch Peacock, but they do have some attractive programming from their deep NBCU library and have offered some very interesting exclusive first-release streaming movies over the past year (including _The Outfit_ and the recent _Nope_ as well as lesser titles such as _Jurassic World Dominion_ and _Ticket to Paradise_). Furthermore, the movies are uninterrupted by commercial breaks even on the ad-supported Peacock Premium tier (I would guess that they are not available on the basic Peacock service that is free to the general public) with just a few minutes of ads at the outset of the stream.
> 
> Peacock has other exclusive programming such as the _The Office Superfan Episodes_ (the first five seasons (so far) of _The Office_ extended with extensive footage that had been cut from the shows that aired on the network) and original series such as _A Friend of the Family_. I have also enjoyed _Shrink_, _Wilfred_, and Save Me, among others.


Love The Office Superfan Episodes!!

We do also watch a bunch of originals that are actually pretty good: The Resort, The Capture, Departure, Vigil, etc.

I will be keeping it even if they make us pay more, as long as the price remains around $10/mo.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

chiguy50 said:


> Yes, the COE credit was granted to subscribers using their own digital receivers in lieu of Comcast's rental (CPE) TV Box when the CPE was included in the TV service fee (i.e., not a separately billed add-on item). But the COE credit has essentially been eliminated under the new Simple & Easy system since none of the offers for TV service includes the TV Box. OTOH, all CableCARDs are now free of charge under S&E.


Update to Comcast's Customer-Owned Equipment (COE) Policy:

When speaking last week to a rep on Comcast's Regional Executive Team, I asked her to research the current policy regarding the COE credit. She got back to me today with the answer that she had coordinated with the various departments concerned. I had stated in my post above that the COE credit had essentially been eliminated, but she clarified that it has been entirely eliminated from the billing system, even for legacy subscriptions that included the CPE. The rationale is that users no longer require any CPE for TV reception since they can use the Xfinity Stream app instead on any third-party device that supports it, and therefore no credit is mandated.

(I alerted her to the fact that the old policy is still being promulgated on the corporate web site, and she said she would pass that along to the appropriate parties for correction.)

Therefore, if anyone is still getting the COE credit, you can expect it to be removed whenever you change your service subscription or if your account is audited, whichever comes first.


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## jeffsinsfo (Oct 16, 2005)

I was able to change my package a week ago, downgrading because my contract ended and they wanted to raise my price more than I was comfortable paying. Sadly the days of getting good new deals seems to be over as the best I could get was a slight reduction in cost in exchange for slightly slower internet speeds and some channels I don't even care about being eliminated from my package.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

jeffsinsfo said:


> Sadly the days of getting good new deals seems to be over


Some deals may be available some of the time (and more likely in highly competitive markets more of the time), but as customer growth has slowed/plateaued, the C-level execs have moved to ARPU (Average Revenue Per User) metrics in earnings calls as how to measure the companies future revenue and valuation, and that means higher prices (and fewer discounts) over the long haul. As with all such things, increasing ARPU is far more complicated than just increases in prices (it also has to address churn and marketing/sales discounts), but raising prices is a very visible part of the strategy.


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