# News on the pixelation issue fix for TiVo HD



## GoldenTiger (Apr 11, 2002)

According to another forum member:



Chimpware said:


> OK, just got a call back from Dave at Tivo Tech. Support, supposedly the level that acts as go between for customers and engineering, as my issue regarding pixelation was escalated to engineering.
> 
> Here is whats I was told:
> 
> ...


Looks like a disaster... I have it happen approximately 12-15 times every 10 minutes, and while I'm a huge TiVo fan, this is absurd. I may be returning my $300 3-year TiVo service and $260 (on the circuit city deal) TiVo HD box shortly. Clock's ticking, TiVo...


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

Thanks for that. I opened this up to read the news only to see my own post.


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## GoldenTiger (Apr 11, 2002)

LOL, sorry, just was trying to make your (very good) info more visible .


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## tgmii (Feb 21, 2002)

I'll be escalating too. I'm waiting until cablevision rewires the outside of my house, which will make the signal as good as it can get. I've been playing around with splitters today, and adding an additional leg causes much more pixelation, so I'm hoping that if they dramatically improve the signal (is at 93 now.. by tivo's screen), it will go away.

I find no pixelation acceptable. I agree with the other statement made, I'd rather stick with my series2 with no pixelation than trying to watch with pixelation.

There is a very real possibility that if this doesn't improve it will go back.

> 30 days is not acceptable. Again, hoping the marginal signal (ok for cable box, not for TivoHD) is the problem.

Tom


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

tgmii said:


> I'll be escalating too. I'm waiting until cablevision rewires the outside of my house, which will make the signal as good as it can get. I've been playing around with splitters today, and adding an additional leg causes much more pixelation, so I'm hoping that if they dramatically improve the signal (is at 93 now.. by tivo's screen), it will go away.
> 
> I find no pixelation acceptable. I agree with the other statement made, I'd rather stick with my series2 with no pixelation than trying to watch with pixelation.
> 
> ...


I sincerely hope this remedies the problem for you, but do not have high hopes. I can tell you from my time troubleshooting that pixelation occurs on stations that I have a signal strength of 100 on the Tivo meter, although I think it is less than stations I have lower signal strength on.


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## hddude55 (Jan 5, 2007)

You people are sure impatient. Series 3 owners have been waiting for a pixelation fix for a year. Get in line!


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

hddude55 said:


> You people are sure impatient. Series 3 owners have been waiting for a pixelation fix for a year. Get in line!


LOL!!!! Sad but true.....


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

For reasons I cant explain, my S3s audio dropout and pixelizing video problems are a lot less frequent these days than they were for awhile. I hope this is a trend.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

tgmii said:


> I'll be escalating too. I'm waiting until cablevision rewires the outside of my house, which will make the signal as good as it can get. I've been playing around with splitters today, and adding an additional leg causes much more pixelation, so I'm hoping that if they dramatically improve the signal (is at 93 now.. by tivo's screen), it will go away.
> 
> I find no pixelation acceptable. I agree with the other statement made, I'd rather stick with my series2 with no pixelation than trying to watch with pixelation.
> 
> ...


I don't think this problem is only signal level as I have not observed any pixelation with the signal meter at 43. For about 1/2 sec I saw some pixelation once on the TiVo menu (other have also) and this sure has nothing to do with signal level.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

hddude55 said:


> You people are sure impatient. Series 3 owners have been waiting for a pixelation fix for a year. Get in line!


Why are we paying extra for Tivo again?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> Why are we paying extra for Tivo again?


I'm saving money with my TiVoHD. Comcast's HD DVR would cost more over 3 years than the TiVoHD will cost me.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> I'm saving money with my TiVoHD. Comcast's HD DVR would cost more over 3 years than the TiVoHD will cost me.


I think your situation is not the norm.

In any event, most consumers won't outlay $299 for Tivo HD and subscribe for 3-years at another $299 if it has picture quality issues not present on the cable company box.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I'm saving money with my TiVoHD. Comcast's HD DVR would cost more over 3 years than the TiVoHD will cost me.


For me it is about a wash from a cost perspective (actually about $3.50 more per month per Tivo HD) when I amortize the cost of the Tivos and the subscription fee upfront payments at a nominal rate.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> I think your situation is not the norm.
> 
> In any event, most consumers won't outlay $299 for Tivo HD and subscribe for 3-years at another $299 if it has picture quality issues not present on the cable company box.


I also got my tiVoHD for $250 and it's $6.95 a month. If I had the comcast HD DVR they would be charging me around $15 a month. They also aren't charging me for any of my cable cards with my Series 3. That's one reason I won't get CC for my TiVoHD, I don't want to mess up my current billing. It's been consistent for several months now, which I think is a record for me. It used to change every month and I had to constantly call to get them to correct everything.


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## TiVoPony (May 12, 2002)

Hey guys,

We are aware that some of you are still reporting macroblocking or pixelation on certain channels. The team here continues to gather information to understand possible causes - they're making good headway. 

The update we released on August 1st has proven to fix the issue for some customers, and we are working hard on a fix for the remaining cases. We will provide more concrete information as we can.

In the meantime, we appreciate your patience and the detailed feedback you've been providing.

Pony


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## monkeydust (Dec 12, 2004)

Thanks, Pony. Good to see Tivo acknowledging the issue. It is really my only problem with my S3 that I've owned for almost a year now.


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## stream (Jul 25, 2007)

I got a TiVo HD a week ago. I've had a Series 2 for about 6 years and love Tivo. Got frustrated by the Comcast/Moto HD DVR so got a TiVo HD. Returned it today. I don't think it's ready for prime time. 

Very slow menu navigation. The Aug 1 SW update didn't fix the pixelation / macroblocking issue (happens every few minutes, both on live TV and recordings, and when you do instant replay, half the time it's there again, and half the time not), and the SW update introduced a new issue (grey screen for a few secs when changing channels).

I hope TiVo fixes the issues, and I'll monitor the boards, but I'm waiting on the sidelines for now. And hopefully we'll get a definitive answer on SDV.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> We are aware that some of you are still reporting macroblocking or pixelation on certain channels. The team here continues to gather information to understand possible causes - they're making good headway.
> 
> ...


He thanks for the update. Anything we should be doing in terms of troubleshooting this issue once it has been excalated to engineering with a trouble ticket?

I have Cablevision coming tomorrow to check the signal as I was told if it is less than 94 this can contribute to the problem, is this the case?


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## hank12345 (Sep 27, 2005)

I'm happy to see TiVoPony chime in on the problem-- he has been a good voice of reason, and source of information all the years I have been lurking around these forums--- He is one of the reasons I have so few posts--- My questions are answered by simply searching the forums-- no need to post! 

That said, his post here makes me a little nervous--- that TiVo feels the majority of the issues have been fixed, where as it seems to me that almost an equal number of us still have less than acceptable picture quality.... 

Should those of us TiVo HD owners that are still experiencing picture quality issues consolidate, and post our specific issues into one new "uber" post--- leaving out our opinions, suggestions and arguments, and just post the facts of what we are experiencing? Maybe this will show the magnitude of the issue, and provide TiVo the facts without the conjecture.... 

If ya'll think this idea is sound, I ask that TivoPony start the thread-- and we post our Tivo issues there-- thoughts?


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

stream said:


> and the SW update introduced a new issue (grey screen for a few secs when changing channels).


Did you check your output resolution again? native? 1080i/720p fixed or hybrid? Sometimes that setting gets changed after a reboot, and if it's changing resolutions, maybe there is additional handshake with your TV.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

hank12345 said:


> I'm happy to see TiVoPony chime in on the problem-- he has been a good voice of reason, and source of information all the years I have been lurking around these forums--- He is one of the reasons I have so few posts--- My questions are answered by simply searching the forums-- no need to post!
> 
> That said, his post here makes me a little nervous--- that TiVo feels the majority of the issues have been fixed, where as it seems to me that almost an equal number of us still have less than acceptable picture quality....
> 
> ...


Good idea, but someone would invariably hijack the thread.

If some of the Chicken Littles will just chill a bit, keep the emotion out of the posts and just post info on the problem, I'm sure the Tivo folks that monitor TCF will get the problem reports to the right people.

But I do hope that folks will also call Tivo and open a case if they see what they think may be a hardware or software problem. Just report the problem to a CSR and get a case number.


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## GoldenTiger (Apr 11, 2002)

TiVoPony said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> We are aware that some of you are still reporting macroblocking or pixelation on certain channels. The team here continues to gather information to understand possible causes - they're making good headway.
> 
> ...


Thanks SO much for the update... also good to see you're still around  (familiar face to me). Should people experiencing the issue still call to report it?


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

hank12345 said:


> I'm happy to see TiVoPony chime in on the problem-- he has been a good voice of reason, and source of information all the years I have been lurking around these forums--- He is one of the reasons I have so few posts--- My questions are answered by simply searching the forums-- no need to post!
> 
> That said, his post here makes me a little nervous--- that TiVo feels the majority of the issues have been fixed, where as it seems to me that almost an equal number of us still have less than acceptable picture quality....
> 
> ...


I posted a poll thread in hopes that this would show the magnitude of the problem. If you have not added to this thread please do.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

TiVoPony said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> We are aware that some of you are still reporting macroblocking or pixelation on certain channels. The team here continues to gather information to understand possible causes - they're making good headway.
> 
> ...


Pony,

Does your statement only pertain to the HD or does it also include the S3? My issue has been open since October on pixelation and dropouts with no aparrent progress or admission that there is a problem that is being worked on.


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## ed_esi (Jul 5, 2007)

I have a series 3 with mild pixelation. Time Warner came out and said that the signal booster that I had for my digital phone was providing too strong a signal.

The Tech stated that too strong a signal can cause pixelaton like too weak a signal. I have noted no change but my TW digital phone is acting up.

Question has anyone heard that too strong a single can effect HD TV and cause pixelation and freezing.

Thanks


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ed_esi said:


> I have a series 3 with mild pixelation. Time Warner came out and said that the signal booster that I had for my digital phone was providing too strong a signal.
> 
> The Tech stated that too strong a signal can cause pixelaton like too weak a signal. I have noted no change but my TW digital phone is acting up.
> 
> ...


Yes. With the DirecTV HR10-250 you sometimes had to attenuate the OTA signal if it was too strong.
It's always been that way with analog. I have that problem on my Comcast signal. Since they upgraded the cableplant my signal is too hot. If I conect it straight to the TV it will be a lousy picture. One I attenuate it 7dB the picture is crystal clear.


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## ed_esi (Jul 5, 2007)

That makes sense. My signal was a 15 at the main box and even split 5 ways it still was a 12 at my HD TV. By the way I know many have issues with the S3 and with the new HD. I am in Charlotte. It has been a learning curve with the TW techs here but it only too 3 visits to get my cards installed. The work great but there has been channel loss. Rebooting brings them back normally. Talking to TW the loss is on their end and not TIVO. Nice of them to admit it. Thanks for the input.


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## Flot (Aug 3, 2007)

I'm still on the fence with mine - honestly as much as I loathed the Motorola DVR, I rarely if ever saw pixelation on it. In watching a 1 hour HD program last night, I must have seen 6-8 visual glitches and a second or two of dropped audio. I don't know if I should blame the cablecards or the tivo, but it's definitely not up to par with the motorola box. (can't believe I just said that)

Browsing the guide is a little slow, but did seem to speed up a bit once I removed about 50 channels that I'd never watch from the list.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

As I posted just now in another thread, TiVo HD initally as of now seems to be working without issue with 2 Moto (SCARD) cablecards with Verizon FIOS in Tampa. Ditto for my Series 3 box. 

I wonder what the variables are causing problems on some, but not all, systems? Must be fluctuations in the signal strength.

I let Verizon leave 1 Moto DVR box when they originally installed my service just so I could check it out. I absolutely hated it, and when they came to install my cablecards, I had them remove it (I still maintain their HD STB's in all rooms just for the on-demand stuff). Far as I'm concerned, those STB DVR's can't even begin to compete with TiVo in terms of features and ease of use.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

TiVotion said:


> As I posted just now in another thread, TiVo HD initally as of now seems to be working without issue with 2 Moto (SCARD) cablecards with Verizon FIOS in Tampa. Ditto for my Series 3 box.
> 
> I wonder what the variables are causing problems on some, but not all, systems? Must be fluctuations in the signal strength.
> 
> I let Verizon leave 1 Moto DVR box when they originally installed my service just so I could check it out. I absolutely hated it, and when they came to install my cablecards, I had them remove it (I still maintain their HD STB's in all rooms just for the on-demand stuff). Far as I'm concerned, those STB DVR's can't even begin to compete with TiVo in terms of features and ease of use.


Fluctuations in the signal strength?

Come on.

This is obviously some sort of driver/hardware interaction problem, possibly with the cable cards. However, seeing as some users are reporting the problem even with analog cable I suspect it's far more likely that some of this is being caused by problems with hardware or firmware.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> Fluctuations in the signal strength?
> 
> Come on.
> 
> This is obviously some sort of driver/hardware interaction problem, possibly with the cable cards. However, seeing as some users are reporting the problem even with analog cable I suspect it's far more likely that some of this is being caused by problems with hardware or firmware.


Obviously, as your single data point of experience, coupled with your extensive knowledge of the internals of the THD and cable plants around the country leads to the rock solid conclusion that signal strength has nothing to do with pixelation problems on any THD in the country.

Right.


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## tgmii (Feb 21, 2002)

cablevision re-wired my whole house today (it needed it, other box was failing).

Still pixelating. Perhaps a little less often, but again its very annoying to see it at all.

I'm hoping tivo will release frequent updates as they see improvements with the problem. I do believe they will solve it, and I'm sure there are late nights nowadays in Tivo software engineering. 

I'm going to wait as long as I can, but in its current state, the reasonable course is to return it.

Tivo, if you can pull log data of any kind from my box to assist in trouble shooting... go for it.

Tom


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Obviously, as your single data point of experience, coupled with your extensive knowledge of the internals of the THD and cable plants around the country leads to the rock solid conclusion that signal strength has nothing to do with pixelation problems on any THD in the country.
> 
> Right.


Numerous people have indicated that improving signal strength has had no effect on pixelation with these boxes.

And btw, I am a telecom engineer with extensive experience with signal levels, DS3s, etc and I am probably as qualified as anyone to say "doesn't sound like signal strength has anything to do with this".


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## jhershauer (Jul 25, 2007)

I called Tivo Tech Support this morning, and they told me they're working on a software fix for the macro blocking issue and hope to have something within a week or so. I get these pixelation events every few seconds both on cable and OTA signals. My cable signal strength is typically in the 90 to 93 range after Cox came out and boosted the signal, and my OTA Antenna signal strength is listed as being 97 to 100.

Tech Support didn't seem concerned about any of the details of my installation (cablecard brand, signal strength, etc.); just acknowledged that there is a problem and they're working on it.

I guess I'll hang loose until my 30 day window draws nearer...hopefully they'll get a fix out.

Jeff


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## tgmii (Feb 21, 2002)

Thanks for that.. good news.

In the mean time I'll stock up on $0.99 Unbox rentals  

Tom


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## mike_camden (Dec 11, 2006)

jmpage2 said:


> Numerous people have indicated that improving signal strength has had no effect on pixelation with these boxes.
> 
> And btw, I am a telecom engineer with extensive experience with signal levels, DS3s, etc and I am probably as qualified as anyone to say "doesn't sound like signal strength has anything to do with this".


Very nicely done. And oh by the way, I greatly appreciate the advice you have offered to me with my CC problem on the Comcast thread. Now if only I could find someone at Comcast who could actually follow your suggestion points. You wouldn't be willing to drive to Pittsburgh, invade the Comcast office, take over a computer for about 15 minutes and fix my account so this actually worked would you?  I'd be eternally grateful! Seriously, I appreciate the advice you have offered. The guy at Tivo the other night concurred with what you suggested.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> Fluctuations in the signal strength?
> 
> Come on.
> 
> This is obviously some sort of driver/hardware interaction problem, possibly with the cable cards. However, seeing as some users are reporting the problem even with analog cable I suspect it's far more likely that some of this is being caused by problems with hardware or firmware.


Its been reported on the TiVo menu and I did see it once on the TiVo menu, for such a short time if this thread did not exist i would not have reported it but the TiVo Menu takes the pixelation problem out the tuner system, cable system and CC, the issue must be in the output electronics/control. Does the output setting make any difference as I do not see this pixelation as other are and I am using 1080i fixed and HDMI.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Well, all I know is, when I check the signal strength on the cards, it doesn't waiver from 100%. It's 100% solid.

And for the record, I had a S3 the week they were released.

I obtained my HD box the day after it came out.

Prior to having FIOS with the S3 box, I had Brighthouse Cable. No issues with the S3 then, no issues with either box now.

So, I have 2 HD boxes, FIOS, and 4 Moto cable cards. And I have no problems.

If it is a hardware or software issue - and I have the same hardware and software as everyone else does - why am I not seeing the issue?

If it's not the FIOS/signal installation at the premesis, then what is it?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Looks like we need to change the term "early adopter" to "consumer beta tester".


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## megory (Jan 23, 2003)

jmpage2 said:


> Numerous people have indicated that improving signal strength has had no effect on pixelation with these boxes.
> 
> And btw, I am a telecom engineer with extensive experience with signal levels, DS3s, etc and I am probably as qualified as anyone to say "doesn't sound like signal strength has anything to do with this".


 :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:


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## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

Wow, I have been weighing numerous options w/ regards to my Series 2 TiVos, including staying put, upgrading to one of these new Tivo HD boxes or stopping TiVo completely. I am extremely glad I found this thread, so I can drop that upgrade option from consideration!

Any possibility they (TiVo) just cheaped out on the video output hardware; e.g. used an underpowered video chipset for what they're asking it to do?


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## knownzero (Feb 26, 2001)

TiVotion said:


> Well, all I know is, when I check the signal strength on the cards, it doesn't waiver from 100%. It's 100% solid.
> 
> And for the record, I had a S3 the week they were released.
> 
> ...


Possible variables:

Cable Cards firmware/software
Cable Card spec
Bad batch of IC's/passives/hard drives/connectors
and about a million other little things unfortunately.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

westside_guy said:


> Wow, I have been weighing numerous options w/ regards to my Series 2 TiVos, including staying put, upgrading to one of these new Tivo HD boxes or stopping TiVo completely. I am extremely glad I found this thread, so I can drop that upgrade option from consideration!
> 
> Any possibility they (TiVo) just cheaped out on the video output hardware; e.g. used an underpowered video chipset for what they're asking it to do?


Not like a video output HW since it should not be related to specific cable card slot, it's probably related to the tuner: ATI Theater 314 demodulator chips for digital cable or ATSC signals, which may be impacted by bad signal on cable cards. Some people also reports that OTA without cable cards is also impacted. Don't know why that happens, it could be that the ATI chip is not as reliable or mature. According to Megazone's review, this choice of ATI chip is a cost choice:

http://www.tivolovers.com/a-review-of-the-tivo-hd-digital-media-recorder/


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## jaydfwtx (Jan 5, 2007)

S3 with FIOS in Plano, TX here.

We are seeing pixelation on our digital channels. I believe it just started in the past couple weeks. Prior to that, we had no issues. Signal strength is way high, like 98% or more. Even on my old DTivo, pixelation did not occur until signal strength dropped under 70%.

I rebooted the S3 and initially thought the problem cleared up, but it started again after about 20 minutes. It is most noticeable on some HD channels, but other SD channels exhibit the problem. For example, it sometimes shows up on SpikeTV. 

It would be bearable if it was just pixelation, but it is also audio stuttering, forcing us to switch over to the SD channels.

I was about to call Verizon about the issue, but seeing this thread makes me think I should wait it out.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> Numerous people have indicated that improving signal strength has had no effect on pixelation with these boxes.
> 
> And btw, I am a telecom engineer with extensive experience with signal levels, DS3s, etc and I am probably as qualified as anyone to say "doesn't sound like signal strength has anything to do with this".


Just because there is a problem unrelated to signal strength with some units doesn't mean that the problem with EVERY unit is unrelated to signal strength. I'm certain that some people experiencing pixelation problems can fix the problem by fixing their signal strength problems. Why am I certain of that? Because I'm one of them, so go stuff your "extensive experience" in your piehole. :down:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or a "telecom engineer with extensive experience with signal levels, DS3s, etc") to figure that out. 



megory said:


> :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:


Real mature. Thank you for your valuable contributions to this thread.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

.


GoHokies! said:


> go stuff your "extensive experience" in your piehole. :down:





GoHokies! said:


> Real mature.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> Just because there is a problem unrelated to signal strength with some units doesn't mean that the problem with EVERY unit is unrelated to signal strength. I'm certain that some people experiencing pixelation problems can fix the problem by fixing their signal strength problems. Why am I certain of that? Because I'm one of them, so go stuff your "extensive experience" in your piehole. :down:


Interesting, I looked back on your past posts and I could not find where you said you were experienceing this issue on a Tivo HD, nor a post that said you remedied it either on your own, or through support of the cable company to improve your signal strength. Can you share what the signal strength was when you experienced pixelation on your Tivo HD, and what level was required to remedy the problem? Also how was the improved strength acheived?


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## Monty2_2001 (Aug 6, 2005)

Oftentimes on Discovery HD the audio drop outs on recorded shows is about 2 seconds for every 3 minutes of programming. At this stage, I can live with it. I know it's not any signal issue, it's purely software. Please fix it Tivo.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Real mature. Thank you for your valuable contributions to this thread.


And what is your contribution other than slamming others? Do you even own a Tivo HD? 

S3 and Tivo HD don't even use the same hardware but you're qualified to make recommendations on what worked for you with your S3.

Have you read the *numerous* reports of people adding amplifiers, boosters, etc, to bump up their signal strength and it having *no effect* on this problem?

I'll tell you what, find someone who has fixed this problem with the Tivo HD by doing as you say and you'll be on better ground to tell someone to shove things in their piehole!


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## jhershauer (Jul 25, 2007)

yunlin12 said:


> Not like a video output HW since it should not be related to specific cable card slot, it's probably related to the tuner: ATI Theater 314 demodulator chips for digital cable or ATSC signals, which may be impacted by bad signal on cable cards. Some people also reports that OTA without cable cards is also impacted. Don't know why that happens, it could be that the ATI chip is not as reliable or mature. According to Megazone's review, this choice of ATI chip is a cost choice:
> 
> http://www.tivolovers.com/a-review-of-the-tivo-hd-digital-media-recorder/


Wow...that's a really interesting review, and breakdown of the internal hardware. Thanks for the link! Regarding the OTA pixelation issues, I took the cablecards out of my Tivo HD today, and my OTA performance on the Tivo is way better. Now, instead of getting multiple pixelation events per minute, I just get a handful of them over a half-hour period. It's not nearly as distracting. Also, as has probably been reported by others, I'm not having any problems with the Analog cable channels.

I really hope they can do something with the software, and this isn't a hardware issue with that ATI 314 chip, or some kind of interference between that chip and something else on the board.


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## unction (Feb 21, 2007)

Chimpware said:


> Interesting, I looked back on your past posts and I could not find where you said you were experienceing this issue on a Tivo HD, nor a post that said you remedied it either on your own, or through support of the cable company to improve your signal strength. Can you share what the signal strength was when you experienced pixelation on your Tivo HD, and what level was required to remedy the problem? Also how was the improved strength acheived?


Good Point!


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> And what is your contribution other than slamming others? Do you even own a Tivo HD?
> 
> S3 and Tivo HD don't even use the same hardware but you're qualified to make recommendations on what worked for you with your S3.
> 
> Have you read the *numerous* reports of people adding amplifiers, boosters, etc, to bump up their signal strength and it having *no effect* on this problem?


For the record I do own a THD (which I clearly stated in my last reply, so it looks like your reading comprehension skills are right up there with your engineering skills) - I've bowed out of the discussions up to this point because my pixelation problems were actually signal strength related and easily corrected. I had a crappy old 3 way splitter in the signal path feeding two other cable outlets that were not being used in the house. Once I removed this, everything started working fine. I get momentary (fraction of a second) dropouts very rarely, which is why I'm following these threads.

What finally drew me to jump in is your wildly incorrect statement that there is now way that anyone is having a problem with signal strength and if anyone is seeing pixelation is HAS to be a manifestation of this bug. Discouraging people from at least considering signal strength when troubleshooting this problem could very well stop people from fixing the problem (to a large degree) on their own (and that's the only way some will get the problem solved - no amount of software updates will magically fix a signal strength problem).



> I'll tell you what, find someone who has fixed this problem with the Tivo HD by doing as you say and you'll be on better ground to tell someone to shove things in their piehole!


Again, like I clearly stated in my last reply I don't need to look that far because *I* fixed the vast majority of my pixalation problems by increasing my signal strength. Who's on the shaky ground now?

The "real mature" comment was directed at folks like Megory and unction who basically posted to cheer you on while contributing nothing of value to this thread. :down:


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## bastion999 (Jul 26, 2007)

I'm positive it's an THD problem and not signal strength, at least in my case. Previous to the THD I had a Comcast provided 8300HD that would experience pixelization once every 4-5 recorded or live hours of HD content. And then it would be for 1-2 seconds at most.

After installing the THD on the same drop (removing the 8300HD), pixelization on analog, SD, and HD content every 3-4 minutes. Swap back out for the 8300, clear signal.

This, along with the growing complaints leads me to believe these is a root problem NOT related to signal strength (90-93 BTW).


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

bastion999 said:


> I'm positive it's an THD problem and not signal strength, at least in my case. Previous to the THD I had a Comcast provided 8300HD that would experience pixelization once every 4-5 recorded or live hours of HD content. And then it would be for 1-2 seconds at most.
> 
> After installing the THD on the same drop (removing the 8300HD), pixelization on analog, SD, and HD content every 3-4 minutes. Swap back out for the 8300, clear signal.
> 
> This, along with the growing complaints leads me to believe these is a root problem NOT related to signal strength (90-93 BTW).


Not disagreeing, you are probably right, but the Tech. at Tivo told me the Tivo with CC might require a stronger signal than the 8300, as I told them exactly the same thing as I did exactly the same test.

I have Cablevision coming to the house today to check my signal to ensure this is not the issue in my case, I will post results later today.


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## psyton (Dec 28, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> The "real mature" comment was directed at folks like Megory and unction who basically posted to cheer you on while contributing nothing of value to this thread. :down:


I must have treked into bizaroo world - this is so reminiscent of the hookbill/hornblowercat, GoHokies, et. al. days, except in reverse.


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## megory (Jan 23, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> The "real mature" comment was directed at folks like Megory and unction who basically posted to cheer you on while contributing nothing of value to this thread. :down:


Huh? I just posted a positive reinforcement.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

megory said:


> Huh? I just posted a positive reinforcement.


Positive reinforcement of a post that basically slammed me without reaing or understanding my post.

That's not the kind of behaviour that I would want to be known for encouraging.



psyton said:


> I must have treked into bizaroo world - this is so reminiscent of the hookbill/hornblowercat, GoHokies, et. al. days, except in reverse.


I'd like to think that I've "turned things around" so to speak and contribute more than I detract these days. I probably could have been a little bit more polite, but seriously - read my post where I said I had a signal strength fixed my pixelation problem before you say I'm full of crap.


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## megory (Jan 23, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> That's not the kind of behaviour that I would want to be known for encouraging.


 Of course not!


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> For the record I do own a THD (which I clearly stated in my last reply, so it looks like your reading comprehension skills are right up there with your engineering skills) - I've bowed out of the discussions up to this point because my pixelation problems were actually signal strength related and easily corrected. I had a crappy old 3 way splitter in the signal path feeding two other cable outlets that were not being used in the house. Once I removed this, everything started working fine. I get momentary (fraction of a second) dropouts very rarely, which is why I'm following these threads.
> 
> What finally drew me to jump in is your wildly incorrect statement that there is now way that anyone is having a problem with signal strength and if anyone is seeing pixelation is HAS to be a manifestation of this bug. Discouraging people from at least considering signal strength when troubleshooting this problem could very well stop people from fixing the problem (to a large degree) on their own (and that's the only way some will get the problem solved - no amount of software updates will magically fix a signal strength problem).
> 
> ...


Tivo has already acknowledged that something is going on and I expect a software update that fixes software or drivers is going to be coming fairly quickly as they have probably been debugging this with people who experience the problem with some frequency.

Things like the "signal strength screen" that show up in the Tivo menus would also clearly show up in the CLI when doing diagnostics and I'm sure if Tivo felt that it was responsible for even *a sizeable fraction* of the problems that they would have stated so already to people contacting them about the issue.

I really don't know what your beef is with me, I have years of experience working with systems similar to the Tivo (large IP based PBX systems that run on Linux and interact with circuit hardware/firmware) but it seems you'd much rather "shout down" people who don't agree with you or belittle them.

Like I said, *noone* other than yourself has reported fixing this issue by boosting their signal. It's great that this worked for you, but apparently there is more to this problem than weak signal level.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

An update to the information I posted yesterday. Again, Verizon FIOS in Tampa, new TiVo HD box, 2 Moto cablecards.

CC's were installed early in the morning. I watched TV most all day looking for the macroblocking issue. This included several movie channels for 20, 30, even 60 minutes at a time or more, and even a few analog channels in the lower set (2 through 49).

The entire time I watched yesterday until about 7pm, I had absolutely no macroblocking issues, unless they occured every time I blinked. Then suddenly, after 7-8pm, I was watching Return of the Jedi (think it was on Starz!) that I'd decided to record while I watched something else. Went back later and watched the recorded program, and sure as hell, there was an instance of macroblocking in the recorded program. Just for a split second. I reversed the movie to before the spot where it occured and played it again, but then it was gone. Continued watching the movie, and several more instances of macroblocking cropped up, but at random intervals - sometimes two within 1 minute, then sometimes not another one for 20 minutes later. Just like the pics I've seen of the issue, the blocking is sometimes on most of the screen, and sometimes only on the lower 1/3 of the screen.

I went back and forth between recorded programs and live TV the rest of the night and continued to notice the problem on both, at odd random intervals. Then, I finally saw the macroblocking occur on the TIVO MENU as well. This didn't happen constantly, but it did happen. Apparently the blocking isn't being recorded into the stream, because I can't make it reproduce itself at the same spot on recorded content.

Why the heck the problem waited all day to start I have NO idea. As I said, I didn't see it all day until the evening. And, my signal on all channels doesn't dip below 100%.

But now I can also confirm I have it too. Even though I know TiVo can't fix it (yet), is it going to do any good to call them and open a ticket on it?

Maybe we're actually dealing with more than one issue with the boxes. My Series 3 absolutely doesn't exhibit this behavior at all.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

TiVotion said:


> The entire time I watched yesterday until about 7pm, I had absolutely no macroblocking issues, unless they occured every time I blinked. Then suddenly, after 7-8pm, I was watching Return of the Jedi (think it was on Starz!) that I'd decided to record while I watched something else. Went back later and watched the recorded program, and sure as hell, there was an instance of macroblocking in the recorded program. Just for a split second. I reversed the movie to before the spot where it occured and played it again, but then it was gone. Continued watching the movie, and several more instances of macroblocking cropped up, but at random intervals - sometimes two within 1 minute, then sometimes not another one for 20 minutes later. Just like the pics I've seen of the issue, the blocking is sometimes on most of the screen, and sometimes only on the lower 1/3 of the screen.
> 
> I went back and forth between recorded programs and live TV the rest of the night and continued to notice the problem on both, at odd random intervals. Then, I finally saw the macroblocking occur on the TIVO MENU as well. This didn't happen constantly, but it did happen. Apparently the blocking isn't being recorded into the stream, because I can't make it reproduce itself at the same spot on recorded content.


You've described exactly what I am seeing with FiOS in DC/VA.

It's probably a driver issue. The TivoHD uses a number of relatively new drivers (for new hardware) so there are probably bugs to be worked out.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

> I really don't know what your beef is with me, I have years of experience working with systems similar to the Tivo (large IP based PBX systems that run on Linux and interact with circuit hardware/firmware) but it seems you'd much rather "shout down" people who don't agree with you or belittle them.
> 
> Like I said, *noone* other than yourself has reported fixing this issue by boosting their signal. It's great that this worked for you, but apparently there is more to this problem than weak signal level.


My beef is that , when presented with the statement that signal strength could be causing people's pixelation problems you chose to very rudely state that there was no way that signal strength could cause someone's pixelation problems and came back with "I'm an engineer so I know what I'm talking about" when questioned on it instead of either a)ignoring the statement or b)politely stating that signal strength problems are not the case with the folks posting here like you. Your experience doesn't have anything to do with it (other than I would think that it would give you an appreciation for the fact that a problem can have more than one cause and not blindly assume that because your pixelation problem isn't caused by signal strength, than *no one's* pixelation problems are being caused by signal strenght issues).

If I had read your post and taken your advice, I would be stuck waiting for a fix from Tivo that would never come. I was merely trying to save other people from that fate by reminding folks that checking signal strength is a perfectly valid troubleshooting step.

The reason that the board is not filled with people saying that signal strength fixed their pixelation problem is that a) that's not real noteworthy and b)that fact is kind of off topic for this thread since your pixelation is caused by something else.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> My beef is that , when presented with the statement that signal strength could be causing people's pixelation problems you chose to very rudely state that there was no way that signal strength could cause someone's pixelation problems and came back with "I'm an engineer so I know what I'm talking about" when questioned on it instead of either a)ignoring the statement or b)politely stating that signal strength problems are not the case with the folks posting here like you.
> 
> If I had read your post and taken your advice, I would be stuck waiting for a fix from Tivo that would never come. I was merely trying to save other people from that fate by reminding folks that checking signal strength is a perfectly valid troubleshooting step.
> 
> The reason that the board is not filled with people saying that signal strength fixed their pixelation problem is that a) that's not real noteworthy and b)that fact is kind of off topic for this thread since your pixelation is caused by something else.


Well, this is the first post I made on the matter;



> Fluctuations in the signal strength?
> 
> Come on.
> 
> This is obviously some sort of driver/hardware interaction problem, possibly with the cable cards. However, seeing as some users are reporting the problem even with analog cable I suspect it's far more likely that some of this is being caused by problems with hardware or firmware.


If that's a "rude" comment then I'd like to see your explanation of telling people with technical backgrounds to shove things in their pieholes being a civil response. 

All you had to do is say "signal strength fixed my problem" and that would have been fine. It seems as though you'd like other people to be models of courteous behavior even though you, yourself, run around braying like a jackass at anyone who doesn't agree with you.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> Well, this is the first post I made on the matter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Belittleing and factually incorreect parts of your post highlighted for your convienence.

You'll also note (if you actually read and understand my posts) that I didn't say I was a model of civility, I even went so far as to say that I could have been more polite. I also didn't get to that level until you tried to convince folks that you were right because you were an engineer and that there was no way that increasing signal strength has fixed anyone's pixelation problems (despite me saying that it had happened to me in a previous post that again, it appears you didn't read and comprehend). It isn't a matter of opinion or agreement like you're trying to make it out to be.

Whatever, man, I'm done with this. You can go on thinking whatever you want about me and my posting style. I'm past the point of caring what random strangers on the internet think about me. 

People, if you are seeing pixelation, at least check your signal strength - it *may* solve some of your problems.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> ...The entire time I watched yesterday until about 7pm, I had absolutely no macroblocking issues...
> 
> I went back and forth between recorded programs and live TV the rest of the night and continued to notice the problem on both, at odd random intervals. Then, I finally saw the macroblocking occur on the TIVO MENU as well.


Any chance that heat is contributing? Perhaps try leaving your Tivo off for most of a day and see if the macroblocking disappears, but returns once the Tivo is in operation for x hours.

Just throwing in a SWAG for your consideration.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

bmgoodman said:


> Any chance that heat is contributing? Perhaps try leaving your Tivo off for most of a day and see if the macroblocking disappears, but returns once the Tivo is in operation for x hours.
> 
> Just throwing in a SWAG for your consideration.


I've turned my thermostat down from 76 to 68 degrees and it had no effect.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I thought about maybe heat being a possibility too, since I didn't see the problem all day, then suddenly it started and got more frequent in the evening. I thought maybe it was overheating too.

But what makes me think it's probably not that is because I've had the TiVo HD set up and running for about a week before the installer showed up yesterday with the cablecards. Of course, this means I was only watching channels 2-49 without the cablecards, but during that week, I did NOT have the macroblocking issue. This was from watching the card-less TiVo for several hours each night.

Now, I think I've read that people have seen the issue without cablecards, with OTA broadcasts. That would make me think that the issue isn't strictly cablecard related. But my HD box worked with no macroblocking whatsoever for a week before it got cablecards.

The whole thing is bizarre.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

bmgoodman said:


> Any chance that heat is contributing? Perhaps try leaving your Tivo off for most of a day and see if the macroblocking disappears, but returns once the Tivo is in operation for x hours.
> 
> Just throwing in a SWAG for your consideration.


Nope, check the trobleshooting thread, I already tested this.


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## jfstx (Aug 26, 2005)

no claims to fame here. But I have macro blocking on over the air without a tivo at all. So can it be an issue with signals being broadcast or other interferences???


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## nick58b (Jul 29, 2007)

I've got macroblocking issues too, but at least my slot 2 CC works now. The issue appeared with the install of my cablecards. I was watching something recorded before the install and thinking the problem was gone, but then remembered it was recorded before the cards were inserted, so I strangely have recordings that work fine, then those that don't.

Other observations are that macroblocking appears on channels from all ranges, although it's definitely heavier on some than on others. Analog/digital/HD doesn't seem to make a differences. No issues without the cablecards, no issues with my previous SA8300 dvr on the same drop. Same everything as the SA8300, I pretty much replaced it with the TivoHD. Cox verified signal strength on the drop when they were trying to fix slot2.

Also, I'm using SA cablecards with a 2007 date. Hopefully this info is useful to someone (maybe at tivo  ). After they fixed the slot2 issue with an update I'm hopeful they'll get this issue fixed quickly.


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## d_anders (Oct 12, 2000)

I don't get a lot of pixelation, but I do get it on my TiVo HD box from time to time.

The fact that I see pixelation on both menus, and probably more frequently with viewing recordings or live suggests that it's either a core hardware issue (I hope not), or something that has to be fixed at the display driver level. 

Does anyone know whether TiVo uses video chips that are firmware upgradable, or have standard linux based video drivers...which would require a fix from the chip manufacturer, possibly?

Since there is some indication that TiVo knows there is an issue and is trying to fix it, it would be good if they indicated what type of problem they're dealing with so we can better understand why a fix is going to take longer than just a simple bug fix update.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

bkdtv said:


> I've turned my thermostat down from 76 to 68 degrees and it had no effect.


Is your Tivo out in the open? Or inside a cabinet? Reducing the ambient temperature may not help very much if the air flow to the unit is restricted. That's why I suggested leaving the Tivo unplugged for a number of hours so that it cools down to approximately room temperature. Plug it back in and see if the macroblocking continues or goes away for a number of hours.


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## AZFXSTB (Aug 4, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> You've described exactly what I am seeing with FiOS in DC/VA.
> 
> It's probably a driver issue. The TivoHD uses a number of relatively new drivers (for new hardware) so there are probably bugs to be worked out.


Same here, I have updated the Drive to a Sammy 500 and still see the same issues. This is a WAG but I think it has to do with processing the digi channels and decoding them from the cable card. If I understand the CC they are just the key the Tivo still has to uncode and display the programing. Even when you are in a menu the Tivo is still decoding the channel in the background so that is why i think you see it in a menu also..like I said this is a WAG so don't take this to heart


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

AZFXSTB said:


> Same here, I have updated the Drive to a Sammy 500 and still see the same issues. This is a WAG but I think it has to do with processing the digi channels and decoding them from the cable card. If I understand the CC they are just the key the Tivo still has to uncode and display the programing. Even when you are in a menu the Tivo is still decoding the channel in the background so that is why i think you see it in a menu also..like I said this is a WAG so don't take this to heart


Read the Troubleshooting thread, I saw the same issue with one of the Tivo videos today, which has nothing to do with the cable cards. My guess is something to do with MPEG decoding / CPU utilization.


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## AZFXSTB (Aug 4, 2007)

Chimpware said:


> Read the Troubleshooting thread, I saw the same issue with one of the Tivo videos today, which has nothing to do with the cable cards. My guess is something to do with MPEG decoding / CPU utilization.


Correct me if I am wrong here but even when viewing a tivo video isnt the TIVO buffering live TV and in turn it is decoding the channel. I do agree it is a CPU Mpeg issue as well but the cable cards bring it out I nver saw i issue with this before the cards were installed


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I can say that as well - my HD box was up and running a week before the cards were installed and I watched it 2 - 3 hours nightly, sometimes more. No macroblocking issues on any channels before the cards were installed.


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## GoldenTiger (Apr 11, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> I can say that as well - my HD box was up and running a week before the cards were installed and I watched it 2 - 3 hours nightly, sometimes more. No macroblocking issues on any channels before the cards were installed.


Mine was running for a few of days, with an upgraded drive for two days, before I had the cablecards installed, and same deal here... nothing macroblocked on channels until the cards were installed.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

jhershauer said:


> Wow...that's a really interesting review, and breakdown of the internal hardware. Thanks for the link!.


Glad you liked it. ;-)


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## JimboDunky (Mar 7, 2002)

(Also posted on megazone)...Ive used TiVo since 2000. I bought a DirecTV Philips DSR6000 for $99 and have used it all the way up until 2 days ago, with 1 hard drive swap with weaknees. I NEVER had any issues with that box, and I bought it when it first came out. I played the waiting game with HD, and when Comcast recently bought out Adelphia in my area, and they offered me a deal I couldnt refuse, I ran out and got the TiVo HD box. My cable installer came yesterday and was here for 5 hours, with a virtual deck of CableCARDs, all were SA PKM600s. Only 1 worked. Then he left, and I go to watch ESPNHD and I get damn legos across my screen every 10-15 seconds. So now Im supposed to hope that my TiVo gets an update because TiVo is working on it? Im supposed to waste 5 hours on a Saturday watching the Comcast cable guy play blackjack with my TiVo HD, only to see it take 1 CableCARD out of 22 of them? TiVo is at fault here, they have brought a product to market which relies on CCs to watch digital content. What kind of CC testing took place ahead of the TiVo HD release? After some choice reading of everyones horror stories about all of this, obviously not a whole heck of a lot of testing went into CC compatibility. Walked over to my neighbors house and took a look at his Comcast DVR with HD channels and no pixelization, host ID screens, nothing. Hes never had any issues with his DVR. I dont have the kind of time to hope and wait that an issue is fixed, when it should have been addressed before releasing this thing. If TiVo can rewind the 5 hours I wasted yesterday, Id keep the box. Glad I didnt cancel DirecTV. Next Saturday will consist of me returning this thing and exchanging it for a DTV HD DVR. At least I know Ill get something that works right out of the box.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Jimbo,

While I can appreciate your frustration, not all of the blame lies with Tivo. Tivo is forced to provide content the only way that's feasibly possible which is the cable card spec mandated by the FCC over a decade ago.

It's not Tivo's fault that cable companies hate Cable Cards. It's not Tivo's fault that the installers are morons. It's not Tivo's fault that they have faulty hardware and inept operators punching numbers into the computers.

Cable is, for all intents and purposes, a monopoly. They don't like someone else playing in their sandbox even one little bit and they demonstrate that as much as possible.

As far as the "beta" quality of the Tivo HD, I agree wholeheartedly that Tivo should be *paying us* to test this crap and wait on fixes to the problems. I can't believe that Tivo hasn't seen these issues in Beta test and couldn't have gotten many of them addressed if the product was delayed another 3-6 months.

I think that the sad reality is that Tivo was scared of missing out on the lucrative holiday selling season and felt it was better to launch with the product in the state it is in today rather than miss the window and launch a more feature complete box next year.


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## aus1ander (Sep 17, 2004)

TiVotion said:


> Now, I think I've read that people have seen the issue without cablecards, with OTA broadcasts. That would make me think that the issue isn't strictly cablecard related. But my HD box worked with no macroblocking whatsoever for a week before it got cablecards.
> 
> The whole thing is bizarre.


Yup, I'm one of those people who have noticed it on OTA. Macroblocking on OTA seems completely random on my TiVoHD. I can go days without have problems, then an entire night of programming can be macroblocking-plagued. The only time I get macroblocking thats predictable is when I have multipath (which I can hear, since its always associated with the helicopters that occassionally fly through my line-of-sight). Now before I had the TiVoHD and watched directly on my TV, I never had macroblocking except when I had multipath, which again, only usually lasts 10-15 seconds, not the entire program.

I've tried pretty everything, but I'm now convinced this is an encoding issue. Lately, most of the HD shows I've recorded have been off NBC, which happens to be the strongest station I receive (90% or higher, compared to FOX which I get at 70%). The macroblocking usually leads to the picture freezing, but I can always hit "skip forward" to get it unstuck.


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## mwenn1 (Aug 15, 2007)

I just bought my Tivo HD and Cox is coming out this weekend to install the cable cards I will let you know how it goes.


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

mwenn1 said:


> I just bought my Tivo HD and Cox is coming out this weekend to install the cable cards I will let you know how it goes.


You might contact your cable provider and "ask" them to bring out several cable cards, to prevent you being disappointed. My experience was less than satisfactory.

After a four day period, the installer went through a total of 14 cards before the Tivo was configured to receive all of the channels beyond the 99 without cards.

In my case the issues of , _pixelation, slow screen freezemenu navigation, random _ reboots, did not rear it's ugly head "until" after the cable cards were installed...

One other factor was, the fourth installer actually was "qualified" to setup a Tivo...

My guess is that BrightHouse is intentionally NOT having their techs trained to install Tivo Devices, rather they/BrighHouse are attempting to force the consumer to accept their inferior equipment...


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## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

First, I have an S3 and not a THD. Second, I did have pixelation problems when I first got the S3 and now it seems to be fixed. I don't want to start any more of the flaming that has recently gone on in this thread, but here is something I am beginning to theorize based on what I've gathered from this and other threads and my experience with my added esata drive. I have no factual evidence, but it seems to make sense.

1. Pixelation happens with or without CC's.
2. Adding CC's seems to make it a lot worse.
3. Heat doesn't seem to be contributing.
4. Changing signal strength has an affect for some.
5. No one is really noticing varying signal strenth over time, but do from different sources.

My experience
I had pixelation several months ago and it is now gone. I changed nothing; so Tivo or Comcast did. When I had pixelation, it was actually recorded that way. I could pause the pixelation. Therefore, it was on the input side of the recording and not the output side of the Tivo. This may not have been the case for all my pixelation, but I never saw any on the menus.

I added a FAP750 esata drive after the pixelation magically disappeared. I had random problems with freezes, slow response and reboots I contributed to the FAP. I moved some things around and reseated the esata and I've not experienced any further problems with the esata in I guess about 6 weeks. I seem to remember before the thing began to slow in response some (stress some) pixelation and things quicky went down hill. I didn't see all the reboots or freezes happen, but probably I did witness two or three and I'm sure there was pixelation just prior.

My theory:
My FAP was not making good connection and was contributing to the workload the tivo processor was enduring. It is possible that the THD processor, eventhough, they say it's faster, may not be as good at interfacing to the tuners and CC's (read this as hardware drivers). It is further possible that the data stream coming from this hardware may have some higher bit-error rate causing retries or excessive error-correction to occur (read this as signal strength related); thus overloading the processor which affects everything including pixelation of the menus.

If this is the case, it sounds like Tivo has to find some horsepower somewhere which can mean significant rewrite to core code or maybe just new drivers for the hardware. However, I've seen hardware cause problems that even us software guys can't fix. I've been in the firmware writing profession since 1992 and I know that sofware can fix a lot of hardware problems. Let's just hope this is the case for Tivo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVotion said:


> Now, I think I've read that people have seen the issue without cablecards, with OTA broadcasts. That would make me think that the issue isn't strictly cablecard related. But my HD box worked with no macroblocking whatsoever for a week before it got cablecards.
> 
> The whole thing is bizarre.


OK, I have to drop from lurker mode now for a moment.

If I read your post correctly, you did not start recording anything until the Star wars movie and then you first saw the macro blocking on playback. That seems more like the difference that started the issue.

as for OTA - it is an antenna and I would wonder about macro blocking reports for that. OTA will have signal strengths fluctuating and also of course random interference can occur. The question is.. is it in the recorded stream or does it randomly occur in the playback of an OTA recording like you saw with your CC recording?

just some questions to help clarify the situation


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Well, the movie was the first thing I believe I tried to record AFTER I got the cable cards installed. Prior to the cards being installed, I had recorded some SD channels, but I never noticed macroblocking on anything, live TV or recorded programs, until after the cards. The movie was the first time I noticed the macroblocking. I hit rewind and backed up to watch that segment again, but the macroblocking was gone.

After that, I've seen the issue on both recorded shows and on live TV, HD and SD channels, and on menus.

Here's the funny thing. I thought that the problem wasn't recorded into the stream, because when I backed up to see if I could see the blocking again, it wasn't there. Then the other night, I hit rewind on a recorded program and the blocking was there, in the exact same spot that it occured the first time.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

Blocking is without a question in the recorded stream for me.


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## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

TiVotion said:


> After that, I've seen the issue on both recorded shows and on live TV, HD and SD channels, and on menus.


Just to clarify, you have an S3, not THD, and you see blocking in the menus?



> ... I hit rewind on a recorded program and the blocking was there, in the exact same spot that it occured the first time.


That is strange. When you backed up, could you pause on it and the blocking remain, indicating it is recorded that way?


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## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

jtreid said:


> Just to clarify, you have an S3, not THD, and you see blocking in the menus?


Sorry if that seems stupid. I just noticed in your sig that you have both. Which one is doing this?


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

The THD is doing it. I never ever had a problem with the S3. It seems the S3 went through many of the same issues early on that are now being reported on the THD (many of those issues involved FIOS, such as odd fast-forward/rewind skipping), but I never saw them. Although I had a S3 the week they came out, I didn't have FIOS at the time (I had "regular" cable TV). By the time I got FIOS, either TiVo had already resolved those issues with the S3, or I was never going to have them, because the S3 works like a charm and always has.

I was convinced that the blocking on the THD couldn't be reproduced on command, it seemed random no matter what was being displayed (recorded, live, menus, etc.), but then I saw the blocking in the recorded stream in exactly the same place. Unfortunately, I did not think to pause the program, and I didn't re-check it. I guess it could have been a coincidence. If it happens again, I will backup and try to pause.

And again, because the THD issues seem to be very similar, if not the same, as issues the S3 boxes had initially, that boosts my confidence level that TiVo can fix it. I suspect that the THD software is some type of clone of the early S3 software and hasn't evolved down the same path yet.


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## Brighton Line (Mar 15, 2006)

I have a THD with SA Cablecards (Cablevision NYC) and I'm experiencing macroblocking or pixelation on both cards while watching Live TV or recordings since the cards were installed. I used the THD for 5 days with just cable (no box) and had no problems at all, even on HD digtial channels.
We have the 30 day window I just don't know if I will keep THD with this problem, return it and be out the almost $47 for the card install.


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## aus1ander (Sep 17, 2004)

There is a new service update that was just released today. Force a call and see if this fixes things.


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## cina (Aug 17, 2007)

I received my Tivo HD 1 week ago and Cablevision installed two cable cards today. Today, I started getting bad picelation. I can't go 15 seconds without the problem Super annoying.

I received a service update about an hour ago. Nor at 8.1.7b2-01-2-652. No help. Still bad pizelation.


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## jazmaan (Aug 31, 2002)

What brand of Cablecards? I'm getting no pixellation on the new update with Motorola cards on TWC West Los Angeles.


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## cina (Aug 17, 2007)

(continuing my saga of dealing with severe momentary (lasting 1-3 seconds) pixelization with Tivo HD with CableCards every 15 seconds or so on all channels...)

I have SA (Scientific Atlanta) cards through Cablevision. Yesterday I was on the phone with Tivo for 45 minutes. They tried a number of things. They told me I had to get my CableCards re-authorized by Cablevision. 

After 1 hour on the phone with Cablevision, reauthorizing the cards, resetting boxes, trying a bunch of things, they said they would need to send a technician. The technician spent 2 hours at my house. Check signal strength, tried new wiring, checked all (and changing some) connections / splitters). Tried the Tivo Box on multiple TVs. Bypassed all existing wiring. No help. Cablevision conclusion - it is not a problem with their SA CableCards or their service - it is a problem with the Tivo HD box. Cablevision sais get a replacement Tivo HD.

Called Tivo again - asked for a replacement, should come within a week.

Frustration, time and $ all mounting.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I hate to tell you this, but the replacement TiVo is likely to exhibit the same behavior with your setup as the original box.

These issues are almost certainly an issue with the TiVo software in certain installation conditions. The couple of software updates that have been issued have fixed the problem for a lot of users, but some users are still experiencing issues. It's likely that the problem won't be fixed for everyone until more software updates are issued. I still think that will be sooner rather than later, but might not occur before you get your new TiVo.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

cina said:


> Cablevision conclusion - it is not a problem with their SA CableCards or their service - it is a problem with the Tivo HD box. Cablevision sais get a replacement Tivo HD.


Hmmm. People say the cable companies favor their DVRs over TiVo. But, let's assume this *IS* a TiVo problem (which it probably is).

*HOW MUCH IS THIS TIVO SCREWUP COSTING THE CABLE COMPANIES????

A LOT!!!!*


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## d_anders (Oct 12, 2000)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Hmmm. People say the cable companies favor their DVRs over TiVo. But, let's assume this *IS* a TiVo problem (which it probably is).
> 
> *HOW MUCH IS THIS TIVO SCREWUP COSTING THE CABLE COMPANIES????
> 
> A LOT!!!!*


Your frustration is understandable, but please chill.

The vast number of TiVoHD users are using Motorola Cards...along with mine, this 2nd update has seemed to fixed the issue....especially with anything recorded since the update. A number of folks with SA cards are still experiencing issues.

Yes, there is a problem. TiVo has acknowledged it, and they are continuing to work on this. This follows a similar pattern with some other units....the problems do get fixed.

As for this costing the cable companies...my cable company only had to spend more time at my house because they didn't know how to fully support cable cards and get all my channels aurhorized correctly.

In the end, this experience should be a learning situation for TiVo....they would be much better off if they improved their hardware/software beta testing on new hardware units.

Call TiVo and ask for a credit on service for every month that this issue continues...seems to be fair.


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## toxicpenguin (Mar 29, 2004)

I spoke with a technician @ Tivo yesterday. I too have 2 SA CC's with annoying pixelation. Mine is so annoying that my better half forced me to resurrect my S2 box AND go get back a TW STB till I resolve the issue (return tivo, wait for a update to fix issue, divorce) lol....
Anyways, the technician told me that although he cannot commit when... their technicians seem to have an update that they are currently testing which should work.
In any event, he noted in my account that once the issue is resolved, they will refund me any $$ for the time I kept the S2 running, and reset my 3 year contract for the T-HD from the date I am satisfied with the service. Also, he extended my 30 day return to 90 days.
I suggest you all do the same... just to be on the safe side. 
Hey I have had Tivo since 5 years now, with excellent customer service every time i called. I dont think they will sc*** with anyone.
Cheers


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## Brighton Line (Mar 15, 2006)

I too called Tivo last night, explained my problem and the CSR said a software update will fix the problem. The CSR would not comment on when it would be available and wanted to end the phone call.
I then asked to extend my 30 days stating that I do not want to pay three years for a product that does not work, that I can not watch (well I can watch). I was then put on hold once more and the CSR said that she talk to her supervisor and that they will open a case. I got a case number and the CSR said that if the issue is not resolved they will send me a new box.
HUH???
At this point being on the phone over an hour (greeting said 2 minute wait, I waited 30) and my 30 days not being up until 9/10, I let it go.
If the software updated isn't pushed by my 29th day, I'll call back to cancel with case number in hand and see if they will extend the 30 day's. I am not paying $7.58 for 3 years or $200 cancel fee for a product that does not work.


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## megory (Jan 23, 2003)

Why not call again and talk to yet another rep?


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## Globular (Jun 9, 2004)

Why, oh why, won't TiVo allow us to open cases online? I think almost everyone agrees that calling them is painful, at best.

Even my crappy cable company, Charter, has an online chat feature, which I always use. It's much faster that waiting on hold for an eternity.


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## toxicpenguin (Mar 29, 2004)

Or that Awesome new feature that TWC rolled out in Manhattan ... you call them, and if the wait is over 5 mins they offer you the option of punching your telephone number in, and their system will call you back when you are 5 mins away from a rep. You dont lose your place in line either. 

Anyways Brighton Line... you probably got a pissed off operator or a CSR who is well "challanged". Call back, tell them you have a HD issue, and you would like the call to be escalated to an HD rep. They are soo much more experienced, and if you are with tivo for more than 3 years will get good service.


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## GoldenTiger (Apr 11, 2002)

toxicpenguin said:


> I spoke with a technician @ Tivo yesterday. I too have 2 SA CC's with annoying pixelation. Mine is so annoying that my better half forced me to resurrect my S2 box AND go get back a TW STB till I resolve the issue (return tivo, wait for a update to fix issue, divorce) lol....
> Anyways, the technician told me that although he cannot commit when... their technicians seem to have an update that they are currently testing which should work.
> In any event, he noted in my account that once the issue is resolved, they will refund me any $$ for the time I kept the S2 running, and reset my 3 year contract for the T-HD from the date I am satisfied with the service. Also, he extended my 30 day return to 90 days.
> I suggest you all do the same... just to be on the safe side.
> ...


Hope they fix it soon... my 30 days are closing fast. The pixelation is still to the level I consider "unwatchable" , though it saw a huge improvement with the last patch (b2).


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## I love HD (Aug 19, 2007)

TiVoPony said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> We are aware that some of you are still reporting macroblocking or pixelation on certain channels. The team here continues to gather information to understand possible causes - they're making good headway.
> 
> ...


 Do you have an update on when the next software fix will be pushed out? I too have serious pixelation, the problem did not occur until after Cox installed SA cable cards. Before that OTA was pixelation free.


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## cina (Aug 17, 2007)

TiVotion said:


> I hate to tell you this, but the replacement TiVo is likely to exhibit the same behavior with your setup as the original box.
> 
> These issues are almost certainly an issue with the TiVo software in certain installation conditions. The couple of software updates that have been issued have fixed the problem for a lot of users, but some users are still experiencing issues. It's likely that the problem won't be fixed for everyone until more software updates are issued. I still think that will be sooner rather than later, but might not occur before you get your new TiVo.


I love TIVO. My Tivo HD was the 5th Tivo I purchased. After many hours on the phone with Cablevision and with Tivo and 3+ hours of in-house service visits from the nice Cablevision tech, they can not resolve my pixelization issues. Of course, Tivo says it is Cablevision's problem and Cablevision says it is Tivo's problem. *I have returned my Tivo HD*  and have now gone back to the to the Cablevision / IO SA high def DVR. My better half, being used to Tivo's great interface, hates that box.

One interesting thing that the last Cablevision tech said. He reported that he received an internal e-mail the there was a problem with the Tivo HD boxes and do even go out to the customer site and try to fix it. I doubt that this was an 'official policy' statement from Cablevision, but rather, possibly, the various tech's discussing their negative experiences with Tivo HD. He also said that the higher cost original Series 3 has given no problems.

Now that I have the Cablevision IO DVR, and the picture is perfect, my 'better half' wants me to get a Tivo series 3. She simply hates the IO DVR interface.


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

Globular said:


> Why, oh why, won't TiVo allow us to open cases online? I think almost everyone agrees that calling them is painful, at best.
> 
> Even my crappy cable company, Charter, has an online chat feature, which I always use. It's much faster that waiting on hold for an eternity.


Thats a great idea, then Tivo wouldn't need to pay all those reps that are in a hurry to get off the phone...

Not unlike so many PC venders that offer online assistance... Then we wouldn't have to endure that dreadful music Tivo forces anyone on hold to listen to... It's so bad I place my phone on Speaker... If only we were paid for the hours spent on hold...


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

cina said:


> One interesting thing that the last Cablevision tech said. He reported that he received an internal e-mail the there was a problem with the Tivo HD boxes and do even go out to the customer site and try to fix it. I doubt that this was an 'official policy' statement from Cablevision, but rather, possibly, the various tech's discussing their negative experiences with Tivo HD. He also said that the higher cost original Series 3 has given no problems.


Sounds like this is referring specifically to the pixellation problem. When the tech arrived a couple of days ago to install the CableCards on my second TiVo HD he mentioned that there was a problem with pixellation on those boxes and asked if I still wanted to have the cards installed. The tech who arrived to do my first TiVo HD a couple of weeks earlier didn't say anything about that, so I guess this e-mail was sent around sometime in the past couple of weeks.


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## damonnoah (Aug 19, 2003)

Hi everyone,

I have had a Series 3 HD since the first day or week it came out. Within a few weeks of having it the pixelation started. A few weeks later is dissapeared and about 2 or 3 months ago it came back worse than ever, so much so that you can't even any HD channels and some digital channels. It happens most of the time on NBC HD and on the FLC. I've had comcast come to my house 5 times over the past two months, they've installed power booster, signal tests , you name it, in fact at this point, they don't want to come to my home anymore. Tivo constantly said it was a comcast problem and comcast truly has gone out of there way to come to my home and do everythign they can. They guy even climbed a pole near my home and ran a direct line to the box to test it out. The comcast DVR in houston is terrible. The boxes break down every few months, reboot on their own and have a terrible interface and no online capability. So, I ordered a Second HD series 3 to make sure it wasn't just the box. Sure enought within minutes of having it, i had the same problem. At this point, i would have to believe its a TIVO problem as my Comcast HD boxes have no pixelation. So, if the comcast boxes don't have the problem, there appears to be no image problem on older tivos like my tivo series 2 but only on the HD Series 3 tivo and all of you on this post with this problem, odds are its a TIVO problem. 

Doesn't seem like tivo has an information as to an update or replacement or plan of attack and is very disappointing in tivo. Not only as a devote tivo user for the past 7 years i am also a shareholder and wondering when those shares should be sold as it appears tivo has no plan and wouldn't be surprised if a one time charge to replace all these boxes is going to have to happen, especially if this is a hardware problem. The huge problem is i've yet to hear from someone at tivo acknowledge this problem as a tivo problem and not point the finger at the cable provider.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

damonnoah said:


> I have had a Series 3 HD since the first day or week it came out. Within a few weeks of having it the pixelation started. A few weeks later is dissapeared and about 2 or 3 months ago it came back worse than ever, so much so that you can't even any HD channels and some digital channels.


Sorry to hear you are having problems, but this is unlikely to be a systemic problem with the Series 3 boxes.

I had similar problems when I got my first S3, but all the problems were traced to fluctuating Comcast signal strength - they eventually found a bad piece of equipment in the neighborhood and replaced it.

There are a few with SA cards that have reported pixelization issues with the S3, but I suspect most are cable related.

Something changed 2 or 3 months ago for you - unless the S3 failed (possible, though seems unlikely), it would seem to be a cable company issue.

If you can, swap out the S3 and see if the problems continue - if they do, it's almost certainly a cable signal issue.

Not really sure what you expect Tivo to do about this - I presume that if there is a widespread Tivo hardware/software issue, Tivo will adress it.

But, other than with the known problems with the drivers for THD that Tivo has acknowledged, the vast majority of pixelization issues are caused by the failure of the cable company to deliver a consistent signal within proper specs.


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## damonnoah (Aug 19, 2003)

Thanks for the note. When i first got the Tivo 3 i had the pixelation issue and it seemed to go just go away. I thought it was related to an update to the software. I would say about 7 or 8 months had passed with perfect results and back in June around the time of another update everything regressed to a terrible picture. I had comcast out there several times and they did a ton of signal strenghth tests (albeit) in the system diagnostics it does show varying signal strenght (only when pixelation occurs). It's odd. I've swapped out the box with a brand new box configured on another TV which i subsequently returned. They swamped out the box in question as well, yet the problem remained. It only occurs on a few channels. The comcast folks have been out here countless times and now will only come out here with charging me a site visit. The pixelation does not occur on any of the Comcast boxes, nor does it happen on any of my series 2 boxes. I have also swapped out the cards three times. I've literally done everything humanely possible to address this and yet still have the same problem. So, i can record non-HD channels, but with a few Pioneer 61" screen and an HD Projector home theatre that seems slighly going backward. I love TIvo, i love the interface, online scheduleing etc but at this point i don't see any new options. The fact that when the new Tivo HD box was relased this problem has resurfaced is led to believe that not many folks had purchased the T3 at $800 and when the consumers ate up the Tivo HD, the problems really become widespread.

Comcast indicated the signal strengh is perfect and there is nothing else they can do. Its hard to tell them otherwise when the same channels that are unwatchable on the Tivo box are perfect on the crappy comcast boxes.

What are the options?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

damonnoah said:


> Comcast indicated the signal strengh is perfect and there is nothing else they can do.


What did they measure? Was it at the direct feed for the S3? What were the results? If you have a good, clean, in spec signal, you shouldn't be seeing a problem on the S3 unless there is a hardware problem. Get the actual numbers from the tech. Ignore what you see on the S3 diagnostics screen - the actual cable signal is what's key.



> Its hard to tell them otherwise when the same channels that are unwatchable on the Tivo box are perfect on the crappy comcast boxes.


What Comcast won't tell you is that they require their DVR vendors to add additional circuitry to compensate for poor quality signals. This is about the only way that the cable boxes are "better" than Tivo.

If you swapped out the box in question and the problem remained, the odds are 99.99% that the problem is cable and not Tivo related.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> What Comcast won't tell you is that they require their DVR vendors to add additional circuitry to compensate for poor quality signals. This is about the only way that the cable boxes are "better" than Tivo.


I keep reading claims like this. My response is: *SO WHAT???*

In theory the TiVo front-end should work. In reality it doesn't. When there is a conflict between theory and reality, theory loses! Right now the TiVo HD is *FAILING* in the real world, which, in the final analysis, is the only thing that matters.

What are we talking about? A better FET in the front-end? Another dollar in parts? Since you are making a claim about "additional circuitry", perhaps you can supply some details.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> If you swapped out the box in question and the problem remained, the odds are 99.99% that the problem is cable and not Tivo related.


Gee.. I guess the cableco had better get busy and fix itself since all those Tivo HD boxes CANNOT be the problem...... since you can replace the Tivo HD and have the same pixelation problem 

I guess my Samsung TV must have this secret special circuitry too since it has no problem with a cablecard.

Perhaps you should at least consider that there may be a better than .1% chance there is an undiagnosed design problem with the Tivo S3 QAM tuner/demod/forward error correction etc etc. Just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.


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## Chimpware (Jan 30, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> If you swapped out the box in question and the problem remained, the odds are 99.99% that the problem is cable and not Tivo related.


Nothing like a BS statistic from the Fanboys to end the argument 

I am 87% sure that 79% of the Tivo HDs that have SA SCards have pixelation during 93% of shows and in 92% of the cases it is a problem with the Tivo HD as I have polled 3% of the users who have been watching their Tivo HDs 34% of the time. In addition I am 99.99% sure that anyone quoting statistics on this board is 99.99% FOS.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

SCSIRAID said:


> Gee.. I guess the cableco had better get busy and fix itself since all those Tivo HD boxes CANNOT be the problem...... since you can replace the Tivo HD and have the same pixelation problem


I didn't say that the Tivo HD boxes CAN'T be the problem, I said it was more likely to be a cable issue. Big difference.

(And yes, AFAIK, most CR TVs also have the additional circuitry in them)

When I got my first series 3, I had similar pixelization problems that others are reporting. I had very occasional issues with a Motorola DVR and didn't see any on a (high end) Sony TV. The first few times I had a tech out, I got "we don't see a problem, you're signal is fine, etc.", but was persistent, because it just didn't make sense to me. (Though I'll admit, my first reaction was to blame the Series 3).

As it turns out, Comcast found not one, but two problems that impacted me and everyone on my sub node. Once that was fixed, I had an in-spec signal and haven't had a single issue on the Series 3 or THD (except on the a1 level) since.

So - despite repeated claims "everything was fine", it wasn't. When they replaced the faulty equipment, the problems went away.

Some cable signal problems are easy (bad amp, too many splitters). Some aren't. Most installers are paid by the job, so they have incentive to leave as quickly as possible.

The cable companies know that their signals aren't always what they should be. Their solution was to use hardware that could compensate for this rather than have to deal with the service calls that would certainly result if those boxes just handled inspec signals. From their standpoint, probably cost effective, at least initially.

For now, anyone with a THD and SA cards - the onus is on Tivo to show the problem isn't a Tivo problem.

For anyone else, I stand by my position - it is far more likely for the pixelization problems to be cable related (either signal or compression) than it is for it to be the Tivo hardware.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

SCSIRAID said:


> Gee.. I guess the cableco had better get busy and fix itself since all those Tivo HD boxes CANNOT be the problem...... since you can replace the Tivo HD and have the same pixelation problem
> 
> I guess my Samsung TV must have this secret special circuitry too since it has no problem with a cablecard.
> 
> Perhaps you should at least consider that there may be a better than .1% chance there is an undiagnosed design problem with the Tivo S3 QAM tuner/demod/forward error correction etc etc. Just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.


The guy is not talking about Tivo HD, but the original Series 3. See his original post. Since most people with the original Series 3 aren't having this problem, well, you figure the rest out.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

SCSIRAID said:


> Perhaps you should at least consider that there may be a better than .1% chance there is an undiagnosed design problem with the Tivo S3 QAM tuner/demod/forward error correction etc etc. Just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.


Certainly. Obviously I can't say there's only a .1% chance of an undiagnosed issue.

You are correct that just because I don't see it doesn't mean there isn't one. But, by the same token, just because others are seeing pixelation problems, that doesn't mean they are caused by the Tivo box and that's my main point.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

brermike said:


> The guy is not talking about Tivo HD, but the original Series 3. See his original post. Since most people with the original Series 3 aren't having this problem, well, you figure the rest out.


I understand that. I was trying to make a point that just because you use a different unit and the problem remains doesnt automatically mean that the problem is the cableco.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> I didn't say that the Tivo HD boxes CAN'T be the problem, I said it was more likely to be a cable issue. Big difference.
> 
> (And yes, AFAIK, most CR TVs also have the additional circuitry in them)
> 
> ...


But by placing a 99.9% probablility on the situation you basically DID say that it really must be the cableco. If you had said 'more than likely' then I would have whole heartedly agreed with you.

For the record, I have an S3 and have fought the pixelation problem since last September and have had cableco folks all over this thing. Even the regional technical supervisor has been here and checked the system out with no success. I dont have a bad amp since three have been tried and I have zero splitters.

You mention 'special circuitry'; can you shed any light on what you are talking about? Its interesting that in my situation, problems occur only on encrypted streams... unencrypted streams are perfect. If the signal is 'bad' is should be equally bad reguardless of the stream payload.

I really dont want to start a foodfight here  but I get frustrated when I hear 'it must be a cableco problem'.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

SCSIRAID said:


> But by placing a 99.9% probablility on the situation you basically DID say that it really must be the cableco. If you had said 'more than likely' then I would have whole heartedly agreed with you.


OK, sorry I used 99.99% - how about "more than likely"? 



> You mention 'special circuitry'; can you shed any light on what you are talking about?


I don't remember the specifics - I saw it in the recent NTCA filing with the FCC and someone else detailed the specifics. Not sure it really matters - Tivo doesn't have it.



> Its interesting that in my situation, problems occur only on encrypted streams... unencrypted streams are perfect. If the signal is 'bad' is should be equally bad reguardless of the stream payload.


That seems logical. In that particular case, I would frame that as a Tivo issue (likely related to CableCARD support), especially if you are convinced you have a good signal.



> I really dont want to start a foodfight here  but I get frustrated when I hear 'it must be a cableco problem'.


I never said that. If you can get the cable company to show that you have a good, in spec signal and have the proof to back it up, then I'd bang on Tivo.

That's exactly the approach I was going to take. In my case, I didn't need to go to Tivo, because it WAS a cable problem.


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## markwri (Sep 17, 2005)

I have had my TivoHD for about 3 weeks now. The first week was spent trying to get the 2nd slot to show HD package and premium channels from my cable company Wide open west. In one visit (it took 3 visits) the installer re-wired my house, added new splitters and ran a new wire from the pole to the house. During each installer visit the card was zapped multiple times. We even swapped Tivo units.

I eventually took matters into my own hands, by
1) removing the working card from slot 1
2) Switching the CC from slot 2 to slot 1
3) Asking the CableCo to re-zap the card (first confirming the host #)
4) Re-inserting the working card into slot 2.
It worked hurray! 

While the re-zapping worked, I think the TivoHD unit, when 2 cards are present, prevented the card in slot two from receiving the full programming signal. I have two SA cards.

Now I'm experiencing pixelation and sound drops. All channels (HD and Non), live and recorded. It's an annoyance at the moment. 

I'm have software version* 8.1.7b2-01-2-652.*

In reading this thread it seems like there are more problems with the *SA cards * than with the Motorola cards. Does anyone know if Tivo has validated this theory?

Also, several people have reported that Tivo is still working on this issue, since it seems the recent upgrade is somewhat successful. Does anyone know the status of the next fix?

TIVO can you provide an update on this situation? If the Comcast internal memo is true : "Lucy! You got some splaining to do"?

Do not want to give up my Tivo? 

MW


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> (And yes, AFAIK, most CR TVs also have the additional circuitry in them)


Let me make sure I understand you.

You are claiming (in two different posts) that

1) cable company boxes have the "additional circuitry" in them

and

2) most TVs have the "additional circuitry" in them

and yet you are also claiming that TiVo is *NOT* at fault for not having this "additional circuitry" that the rest of the electronics universe has.

Do I understand your position correctly?

P.S. Sorry about the double negative, it just seems the easiest way to state things.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> OK, sorry I used 99.99% - how about "more than likely"?
> 
> I don't remember the specifics - I saw it in the recent NTCA filing with the FCC and someone else detailed the specifics. Not sure it really matters - Tivo doesn't have it.
> 
> ...


If you come across the tuner circuitry info again I would really appreciate a PM. Id like to understand what it is.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

Personally I don't buy this "additional circuitry" theory. My TiVo was working just fine with a _very_ marginal signal of -16 dbmV (as measured by my cable modem on the same splitter). I haven't seen an evidence of a problem with the TiVo front end.

On the other hand, TiVo has acknowledged (and has a fix in text for) a software problem that causes pixellation.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

bdlucas said:


> Personally I don't buy this "additional circuitry" theory. My TiVo was working just fine with a _very_ marginal signal of -16 dbmV (as measured by my cable modem on the same splitter). I haven't seen an evidence of a problem with the TiVo front end.
> 
> On the other hand, TiVo has acknowledged (and has a fix in text for) a software problem that causes pixellation.


Wow... -16 isnt marginal... its just plain terrible. 

I dont buy it either... but am keeping an open mind. The tuners these boxes use are 'off the shelf' items. Its been said that the ATI tuner chipset in the Tivo HD is the same one that is in the current Scientific Atlanta cableboxes (although I cant state that as fact).

With my S3 situation, signal strength made no difference. Using amps and attenuators, I moved the level up and down with zero effect on the pixelation. Im setting at about +4 right now.

I have to wonder if the issue that bit Tivo HD may shed some light on what I am experiencing with S3. I do have SA cablecards. On the other hand, it could be something completely different.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

bdlucas said:


> Personally I don't buy this "additional circuitry" theory. My TiVo was working just fine with a _very_ marginal signal of -16 dbmV (as measured by my cable modem on the same splitter). I haven't seen an evidence of a problem with the TiVo front end.


Please confirm that you are talking about the TiVo HD. From what I read here the S3 is much better with a marginal signal.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Please confirm that you are talking about the TiVo HD. From what I read here the S3 is much better with a marginal signal.


Yup, TiVo HD.



SCSIRAID said:


> With my S3 situation, signal strength made no difference. Using amps and attenuators, I moved the level up and down with zero effect on the pixelation. Im setting at about +4 right now.


At the end of the day the number that really matters is the S/N ratio. In fact it appears to me that the TiVo HD signal strength meter seems to pretty much be tied to the S/N ratio, going up/down in increments of about seven for every db change in S/N ratio.

The reason signal level matters is that when it is low enough the front-end noise becomes significant relative to the signal level, compromising the S/N ratio. But the overall signal quality is really determined by the sum total of all sources of noise in the system, relative to the signal.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

bdlucas said:


> Yup, TiVo HD.
> 
> At the end of the day the number that really matters is the S/N ratio. In fact it appears to me that the TiVo HD signal strength meter seems to pretty much be tied to the S/N ratio, going up/down in increments of about seven for every db change in S/N ratio.
> 
> The reason signal level matters is that when it is low enough the front-end noise becomes significant relative to the signal level, compromising the S/N ratio. But the overall signal quality is really determined by the sum total of all sources of noise in the system, relative to the signal.


Yup. Using the measurement capability of the SA 8300 which I still have on another set, SNR varies between 31 and 34 db on the channels of interest. Setting up the two tuners on channels that I watch and see issues, 8300 indicates BER of 0 on each tuner after about 2 hours. This rate is very likely after the forward error correction has done its job as the native channel BER should be nonzero.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

SCSIRAID said:


> Yup. Using the measurement capability of the SA 8300 which I still have on another set, SNR varies between 31 and 34 db on the channels of interest. Setting up the two tuners on channels that I watch and see issues, 8300 indicates BER of 0 on each tuner after about 2 hours. This rate is very likely after the forward error correction has done its job as the native channel BER should be nonzero.


Could be, although TiVo HD reports both corrected and uncorrected cumulative bit errors (on the diagnostics screen) and I've seen both numbers sit at 0 for extended periods, albeit with a cleaner signal than you're reporting (35 to 37 db S/N as reported on the TiVo HD diagnostics screen).

Nevertheless I'm getting the pixellation that everyone is reporting. Has nothing to do with signal or TiVo front-end quality. Holding my breath waiting for the software fix.


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## damonnoah (Aug 19, 2003)

Hi everyone,

I have to think its a Tivo Series 3 problem. As I said, i had the comcast folks at my home 5 times. They ran all sorts of test and even ran a line direct from the pole to my tivo bypassing all splitters and long cable runs through my home. He even went to the box down the street to double check it all. The reality is, while it may be a comcast problem which i doubt but Tivo should have a solution for this. The reality is that there are only a few cable providers out there and if they have to have special circuitry to support a non-consistent signal, tivo should adapt this as well. What is odd is that the channels that are heaviliy pixalated are few. There are two HD channels that are always pixelated and the others are fine. A few digital station but mainly the FLC. So while it may be comcast, i have a hard time believing that Comcast would push different channels at different signal strenghts.


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## robpgreer (Aug 6, 2007)

I got my HD Tivo up an running today in Pasadena, CA. Both cards installed fine by a Charter contractor. He brought 4 cards (per my instructions to Charter) and only 2 worked. 

I'm already experiencing the pixelation described on this thread when watching both recorded and live TV. I haven't noticed it in any of the menus. My signal strength ranges from 81 - 87 and my version number is 8.7.7b2-01-2-652. My S/N ratio is 34. The pixellation occurs every 3-4 minutes, covers 25% - 50% of the screen, and is really annoying to me.

I don't know what the TiVo engineers need to do to fix this problem, but if they can't, I don't see how they can expect consumers to continue to purchase the HD TiVo.

I purchased HD TiVo b/c I already owned a Series 2 with lifetime. If I was starting from scratch, I'd have to think hard about simply sticking with Charter's DVR if this is what I have to expect for the long term (or even short term).


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Do I understand your position correctly?


Yes, you do.

If the Tivo RF handles properly-spec'ed signals, there is no reason for Tivo to go to the additional expense to support the failure of the cable companies to provide an in-spec signal.

The other DVR manufacturers apparently did so, because of requirements imposed by their customer (the cable companies, not the end users). (See pages 39-41 in the recent NTCA filing with the FCC for more)
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519612942

I have no idea what the incremental BOM cost would have been had Tivo included it in the THD, but it is > $0 and Tivo wanted to get the price point as low as possible.

They are apparently still losing money on the hardware for boxes not sold direct, so every little bit counts. I would also hope that someone did an analysis along the lines of "it would cost $x more per unit, but save $y in service costs" and that they determined that it overall it would be more cost effective to leave it out.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> Yes, you do.
> 
> If the Tivo RF handles properly-spec'ed signals, there is no reason for Tivo to go to the additional expense to support the failure of the cable companies to provide an in-spec signal.


Assuming it does handle properly-spec'ed signals (and I've seen some debate about that) TiVo has every reason to sell a box that works with "Real-World" conditions and everything to lose if it doesn't"



jfh3 said:


> The other DVR manufacturers apparently did so, because of requirements imposed by their customer (the cable companies, not the end users). (See pages 39-41 in the recent NTCA filing with the FCC for more)
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519612942


No such "requirements" are imposed on the TV manufacturers. Their products work fine.



jfh3 said:


> I have no idea what the incremental BOM cost would have been had Tivo included it in the THD, but it is > $0 and Tivo wanted to get the price point as low as possible.


The source you quote above says it would cost "pennies". My experience as a retired engineer would lead me to agree with that.



jfh3 said:


> They are apparently still losing money on the hardware for boxes not sold direct, so every little bit counts. I would also hope that someone did an analysis along the lines of "it would cost $x more per unit, but save $y in service costs" and that they determined that it overall it would be more cost effective to leave it out.


Lost sales and loss of reputation due to reports of major problems are extremely damaging to the bottom line.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

RoyK said:


> Assuming it does handle properly-spec'ed signals (and I've seen some debate about that) TiVo has every reason to sell a box that works with "Real-World" conditions and everything to lose if it doesn't"


EXACTLY.


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## d_anders (Oct 12, 2000)

robpgreer said:


> I purchased HD TiVo b/c I already owned a Series 2 with lifetime. If I was starting from scratch, I'd have to think hard about simply sticking with Charter's DVR if this is what I have to expect for the long term (or even short term).


You didn't mention the most important item. What kind of cablecards do you have?Are they Scientific Atlanta (SA) cards, or Motorola based cards?

I'm surprised by some of the new posts here with people surprised that there is a problem. There is a problem. Any reading on some of the other posts note as much. TiVo has stated as much.

The last software update was a big improvement for TiVoHD owners with Motorola Cards. TiVOHD owners with SA cards are still experiencing issues.

The problems will be fixed. Upgrading cable lines, checking signal strength are all the right things to do, but in the end, if you've got SA cards it's likely you are going to experience problems still.

For those on any type of monthly plan, I would ask for a credit for the month. For anyone on a transferred lifetime, I would ask them for a monthly credit on any remaining boxes in the house....Or a credit just simply applied on your account for future use....or ask for an S3 with a reduction in price for your trouble.

Personally, I would stick it out with an TiVoHD. Other than the OLED front panel and larger initial harddrive, backlit remote, and an HDMI cable, the TiVoHD actually has some improvements under the hood that may make a difference someday.

Hang-in there. I've got comcast with motorola cards, and the last update was a significant improvement for me....fully enjoying my TiVoHd, but the first weeks for me were rough too.


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## Brian-1337 (Aug 20, 2007)

d_anders said:



> The last software update was a big improvement for TiVoHD owners with Motorola Cards. TiVOHD owners with SA cards are still experiencing issues.


I have a Motorola M-Card with a TiVo HD, and am experiencing pixelation & audio drop outs on both recorded & live showings.

There seems to be a general assumption on these forums that things are fixed for Motorola - they aren't. Perhaps it's better than before, though (I only purchased my TiVo in the last few weeks, so I have nothing to compare to - but it's still pretty bad).


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

Brian-1337 said:


> I have a Motorola M-Card with a TiVo HD, and am experiencing pixelation & audio drop outs on both recorded & live showings.
> 
> There seems to be a general assumption on these forums that things are fixed for Motorola - they aren't. Perhaps it's better than before, though (I only purchased my TiVo in the last few weeks, so I have nothing to compare to - but it's still pretty bad).


For channels where you're experiencing these problems, what numbers are you seeing on the Diagnostics screen for signal strength, SNR, RS corrected, and RS uncorrected? The latter two are cumulative, so leave it on the channel for a few minutes to let the errors (if any) accumulate.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> The other DVR manufacturers apparently did so, because of requirements imposed by their customer (the cable companies, not the end users). (See pages 39-41 in the recent NTCA filing with the FCC for more)
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519612942
> 
> I have no idea what the incremental BOM cost would have been had Tivo included it in the THD, but it is > $0 and Tivo wanted to get the price point as low as possible.
> ...


I read this. The cable company had a DVR RF solution that they said has been working well in the field. Tivo said "no thanks" and used a cheaper solution. The cheaper solution doesn't always work (surprise!) unless several visits are made and/or the entire house is rewired -- both at the cable company's (not Tivo's) expense.

So the CE companies get to use cheaper hardware and pass the costs of support to the cable companies. Gee, I wonder why the cable companies don't like this solution?

The CE companies could minimize problems to their customers by using a solution that is proven. It's not always about being right, it's about customer experience as well. How many boxes have been returned to Tivo and how much extra has been spent on technical support to save a few pennies on the BOM? (the sad part is, most CE companies do this).

This isn't the first time for Tivo. Remember the Series 1 modems?

Finally, in your case, the Motorola DVR was ALSO behaving funny. I believe in YOUR case that it was the cable company's problem. But in OTHER cases, all the other devices work fine, which means it's PROBABLY the Tivo. Not to mention Tivo has acknowledged that there is (at least) one known issue and that they are working on the solution.

In the end, the customer just wants a solution that works, and won't spend months trying to make it work. They'll just try another DVR.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Brian-1337 said:


> I have a Motorola M-Card with a TiVo HD, and am experiencing pixelation & audio drop outs on both recorded & live showings.
> 
> There seems to be a general assumption on these forums that things are fixed for Motorola - they aren't. Perhaps it's better than before, though (I only purchased my TiVo in the last few weeks, so I have nothing to compare to - but it's still pretty bad).


I see the occasional pixelation problem with my Moto-Scards since the update, but nothing like I was seeing previously.

I'm inclined at this point to accept that the random problem once every several hours (or more rarely) has nothing to do with the Tivo HD.


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## toxicpenguin (Mar 29, 2004)

After the update, I too am seeing occasional pixelation, I have some photos I took with pixelations seen in FOX, NBC and CBS, none however in ESPN, HBO or TNT that I have seen. All pixelations were on HD channels, none at all on SD channels so far. This is 2 days into the update, watching about 4 hours of TV.
I have 2 SA cards in the tivoHD.
Anyone else has similar reports??


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## cina (Aug 17, 2007)

I purchased a Tivo Series 3. Cablevision came and after 4 hours of trying got the CableCards working! No pixelization - works great. I was never able to get the CableCards to work with the Tivo HD (tried two different Tivo HD boxes).


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## markwri (Sep 17, 2005)

My blocking/pixelation and sounds drops have been resolved. My Tivo HD is now working fine, It took several software updates but version 8.1.7c2 seemed to do the trick.

Wide open west cable
SA Cards.

Note: As I reported earlier, the cable company came out several times, to re-wire/upgrade all splitters, etc. I think the combination of that the upgraded wire and the software solved my problems.

MW


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## ktm450exc (Mar 5, 2007)

Up until last night (9/19) I didn't have any pixelation or sound drop issues on my TivoHD (moto CC).

But last night while watching Kitchen Nightmares on Comcast's Fox HD channel, I had quite a bit of pixelation and sound drops. None of the other HD, SD, digital, analog, or Tivo Menu's have had pixelation or sound drops since the b&c updates. I suspect that it's mostly a broadcast issue since this is the only channel so far to have the issue.

Just thought I'd through that out there FWIW.


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