# Here Comes the Competition



## babsonnexus (Jan 13, 2016)

Xiaomi Mi TV Stick pops up online w/ Android TV - 9to5Google

https://www.gearbest.com/tv-stick--...id=51k4_taee6&sascid=51k4_taee6&userID=389818

I don't know much about Xiaomi Mi TV, but I have heard others talk about it and it sounds like a basic Android TV streamer. Haven't heard any attempt at content aggregation, but you could just as easily install Reelgood/JustWatch and use them for all the OTT content.

And this in addition to what is already rumored with Google developing their own Android TV Streaming Stick that does content aggregation (and I'm going to suppose a YouTubeTV integration, since they own that, too):

Google is Reportedly Working on a New Android TV Device to Take on Amazon and Roku

TiVo certainly is out the door early hoping to capture market share before the rest catch up (and/or Roku figures out how to do this natively), but they can be easily lapped if they don't take advantage of their lead to get waaaaaaaay ahead on features (see: TiVo Stream 4K: Path to Perfection and just about every other thread in this topic).


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## jimpmc (Oct 31, 2001)

babsonnexus said:


> Xiaomi Mi TV Stick pops up online w/ Android TV - 9to5Google
> 
> https://www.gearbest.com/tv-stick--...id=51k4_taee6&sascid=51k4_taee6&userID=389818
> 
> ...


The Mi Stick isn't going to move the needle...it's just a repackaging of the Mi Box S in a stick format. It's good there are more Android TV devices to drive adoption and share of that as a platform, but unless they plan to sell it outside of Walmart, I don't think it is going to drive significant sales volume over what Mi Box has already done. Also, it may be priced higher ($80) than the Mi Box S ($60) which makes no sense.

As for Google, they need a flagship device that is cheap and readily available to increase adoption of Android TV. It's unclear if the content aggregation will be unique to this new device or a redesign of the home launcher for Android TV in general. I would think it would be the latter, as otherwise they are fragmenting Android TV even more. If it is software/OS, then it would come to the TiVo Stream as well.

I have been a loyal TiVo user for many, many years like most on this board. I also have been an early adopter of Android TV with Nexus Players, Shields, and now a TiVo Stream 4k. In my opinion, TiVo's Stream 4k isn't doing enough to aggregate content and will likely remain a niche product unless they strike deals with major retailers. The dongle is priced competitively, so it's a good choice for Android TV/Chromecast at the moment. But that's about it and as soon as Google releases something, it will likely be overshadowed.


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## cybergrimes (Jun 15, 2015)

Luckily they separated the launcher/home screen from OS updates so they could push it from Play Store (if that's the case with whatever this content aggregation plan is)


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

jimpmc said:


> The Mi Stick isn't going to move the needle...it's just a repackaging of the Mi Box S in a stick format.


This is incorrect...though in your defense, I've seen at least one major outlet describe the Mi Stick as being the same hardware as the Mi Box S. They were also incorrect.

The Mi Stick will have the same SoC as the TS4K (and likely Chromecast Ultra 2): Amlogic S905Y2. It's a completely different generation (12nm) than the 28nm S905X SoC found in the Mi Box (both original and S). The S905Y2 is superior in every way, not the least of which is that it can _be_ in stick form factor, which the S905X never could due to heat dissipation, power requirements, and inclusion of an Ethernet port. Here's a good comparison: Functional Comparison of Amlogic S905X, S905Y2 and S905X2


jimpmc said:


> Also, it may be priced higher ($80) than the Mi Box S ($60) which makes no sense.


That would make sense if they were the same thing, but they're not. I agree that $80 seems high, but you have to take into account that its competition is essentially just the TS4K and the upcoming Chromecast Ultra 2. The Ultra has always been overpriced, IMO, and Google will almost certainly price the new one at $80 or more. The TS4K and Mi Stick both offer 4K Chromecast abilities, so it's a fair pricing strategy.

If the Mi Stick came in at $60, I'd pick it up in a heartbeat over the TS4K. Heck, I would have chosen the Xiaomi device over the TiVo one even without using the TS4K and realizing the firmware is trash. Xiaomi is a real tech company that will be around long enough to support the Mi Stick; TiVo screwed up the only opportunity they had to produce anything competitive.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

I'm new to Android TV, but wouldn't any update that Google makes in software be available for all Android TV hardware? For instance, if the biggest feature unveiled for Chromecast Ultra 2 is a hardware remote and some additional show-centric aggregation on the home screen, wouldn't that also be available for TiVo Stream 4k? It kind of kills the TiVo Stream app, but keeps the (currently) $50 device a good deal.


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## jimpmc (Oct 31, 2001)

rczrider said:


> This is incorrect...though in your defense, I've seen at least one major outlet describe the Mi Stick as being the same hardware as the Mi Box S. They were also incorrect.
> 
> The Mi Stick will have the same SoC as the TS4K (and likely Chromecast Ultra 2): Amlogic S905Y2. It's a completely different generation (12nm) than the 28nm S905X SoC found in the Mi Box (both original and S). The S905Y2 is superior in every way, not the least of which is that it can _be_ in stick form factor, which the S905X never could due to heat dissipation, power requirements, and inclusion of an Ethernet port. Here's a good comparison: Functional Comparison of Amlogic S905X, S905Y2 and S905X2
> 
> ...


Thanks for the additional info. Is there really going to be a Chromecast Ultra 2? Or isn't that what the rumor mills are instead expecting to be a Google-branded Android TV dongle (and embedded Chromecast) with a remote?


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## ptcfast2 (May 10, 2020)

rczrider said:


> The S905Y2 is superior in every way, not the least of which is that it can _be_ in stick form factor, which the S905X never could.


Yup! As many (including myself) have said - the hardware is solid. I own a bunch of these little guys, and even opened one up. It's well designed and not cheap feeling externally and even internally. It's got great thermal dissipation and a clever design for the SoC board. The software is what's killing the device at the moment. I'm hoping (barely...) that the lack of update is due to them fixing a bunch of stuff. It's like they didn't actually test the firmware before releasing it, and it's known that they are definitely looking at the Tivo subreddit since they have an active rep posting over there and I assume here.

The only saving grace for this device will be if they get their software game together...and quickly.



powrcow said:


> I'm new to Android TV, but wouldn't any update that Google makes in software be available for all Android TV hardware? For instance, if the biggest feature unveiled for Chromecast Ultra 2 is a hardware remote and some additional show-centric aggregation on the home screen, wouldn't that also be available for TiVo Stream 4k? It kind of kills the TiVo Stream app, but keeps the (currently) $50 device a good deal.


It depends if it's exclusive to their device. Sure, the APKs and stuff can be pulled and put on another Android TV device, but people don't want to have to do that. The goal is to appeal to the general consumer, which Tivo has tried to do using the "Tivo" name but it falls flat due to the bugs and lack of integrations at the moment. It's very apparent they didn't supply test units to other companies that have apps on Android TV. They should have done that and got this thing tested with those companies before releasing it, as that would have mitigated a large amount of bugs. Either way, Tivo has a very limited window to make a name for this device, and I'm honestly rooting for them. If Google comes out of the gate with a functional Android TV device that does everything the Stream can do without bugs, there's no reason to buy the Stream at the eventual retail price. Right now at $50 it's a bargain. In the future it might not be, and that is ENTIRELY dependent on how they improve the abysmal state of the software.

I like Tivo. I hope they pivot. But if this is their best shot and they fail to fix the device's software...RIP.


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

jimpmc said:


> Thanks for the additional info. Is there really going to be a Chromecast Ultra 2? Or isn't that what the rumor mills are instead expecting to be a Google-branded Android TV dongle (and embedded Chromecast) with a remote?


The latter, though (supposedly) resembling the current Ultra and so with a form factor closer to the TS4K than the Mi Stick.


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## AussieFigjam (Mar 5, 2020)

I owned a bunch of the original Mi boxes, as well as the original Google devices (re branded Asus Android TV), and I really like Android TV, partly because it is a real multi-process OS, which makes it well positioned to do search and aggregation and launch in-context (something that is almost impossible for Roku). But as mentioned here, it owns such a small market share, and I'm really crossing my fingers that Google doesn't decide to kill it, like they do with lots of things. It is good to hear that Google is planning a device of its own; with a big marketing push and a great search/aggregator app (and perhaps throw in a couple months free YouTube TV), they may take enough market share to make it successful long-term....I really hope so.

Meantime, I have invested in the Tivo box, and it is a good piece of hardware for the money, but as mentioned, they really need to clean up their act on the software. I hope they survive long enough to keep updating this device, it's a nice Android TV box. I don't think they will get much traction on the search aggregator app, especially if Google come out with something that works on any Android TV box. I doubt there is much of a margin on hardware sales, so this is alone definitely not going to save their bacon.

I'm going to risk keeping this device for the time being as a good quality Android TV box, and hope that Google put enough effort in to developing an aggregator for Android TV, and are open enough to make it work everywhere (usually a good bet for Google), and that Tivo survive long enough to keep updating it for a few years with the latest OS and firmware. The Tivo aggregator seems like a lost cause, but once can hope.


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## jimpmc (Oct 31, 2001)

AussieFigjam said:


> I owned a bunch of the original Mi boxes, as well as the original Google devices (re branded Asus Android TV), and I really like Android TV, partly because it is a real multi-process OS, which makes it well positioned to do search and aggregation and launch in-context (something that is almost impossible for Roku). But as mentioned here, it owns such a small market share, and I'm really crossing my fingers that Google doesn't decide to kill it, like they do with lots of things. It is good to hear that Google is planning a device of its own; with a big marketing push and a great search/aggregator app (and perhaps throw in a couple months free YouTube TV), they may take enough market share to make it successful long-term....I really hope so.
> 
> Meantime, I have invested in the Tivo box, and it is a good piece of hardware for the money, but as mentioned, they really need to clean up their act on the software. I hope they survive long enough to keep updating this device, it's a nice Android TV box. I don't think they will get much traction on the search aggregator app, especially if Google come out with something that works on any Android TV box. I doubt there is much of a margin on hardware sales, so this is alone definitely not going to save their bacon.
> 
> I'm going to risk keeping this device for the time being as a good quality Android TV box, and hope that Google put enough effort in to developing an aggregator for Android TV, and are open enough to make it work everywhere (usually a good bet for Google), and that Tivo survive long enough to keep updating it for a few years with the latest OS and firmware. The Tivo aggregator seems like a lost cause, but once can hope.


I think there is some $$ for TiVo in the user data itself -- viewing habits, liked shows, etc.


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

jimpmc said:


> I think there is some $$ for TiVo in the user data itself -- viewing habits, liked shows, etc.


Especially if the device is uploading as much as some users have noted.


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## AussieFigjam (Mar 5, 2020)

I would think they only get that information if you launch through their aggregator; which might encourage them to try to get this right 

I have not noticed any significant uploads, but then, I disabled all the Tivo add-ons because they don't work; on the Android platform, it's really not that hard to do that, which means for most customers, Tivo is not getting paid on the back-end unless they up their game enough to make people want to use the software....probably a good thing.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

at this point any streamer needs a remote with tv power/vol buttons along with play/pause/ff/rew buttons. 

F* the netflix button!


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## AussieFigjam (Mar 5, 2020)

foghorn2 said:


> F* the netflix button!


Well at least on Android TV, you can re-map it to something else


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

AussieFigjam said:


> I owned a bunch of the original Mi boxes


Why have you owned so many Mi Boxes?


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## AussieFigjam (Mar 5, 2020)

shwru980r said:


> Why have you owned so many Mi Boxes?


I cut the cord years ago, and I have like 5 TVs in my house, and I needed a streaming box on each TV,plus I picked them up when they were cheap.


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## babsonnexus (Jan 13, 2016)

BTW, there is no proof of the $80 price tag on these; that's pure speculation/rumor. Even if it is true, there could be a cheaper introductory price or some type of sale.

I wasn't saying that the Mi TV Stick was in of itself going to move the needle, but it combined with Google directly and a bunch of knockoff Android TV devices could move the needle against Roku/Amazon (especially as Roku gets more aggressive in their fee structures and either content providers or television builders look for cheaper options). Assuming this iteration of Android TV or whatever they rebrand it to doesn't end up in the Google Graveyard, they certainly have the resources and ability.

I didn't even realize that Google's Live Channels App existed before the Stream 4K, so now I'm going to use that to combine HD Homerun + Pluto + Xumo + other IP TV. If it can also integrate what's in Channels/Plex (or do what Channels does), it's a major winner (or vice versa if Channels/Plex can combine Pluto + Zumo + IP TV). Plus as @powrcow said, if Google creates a default content aggregation app, then they have the live stream/TV channels and the content aggregation, so there would be no point to the TiVo Stream app (especially if they create their own version of the app that has Content Aggregation and Live Channels in the same app, or make it the default OS). Even if they don't and just outsource to Reelgood or Justwatch and install them by default, it would be a win.

I'm happy to have gotten the Stream 4K because it has opened up my eyes to what Android TV can do and what's available. However, knowing what I know now I would not have bothered waiting and would have just gotten a different Android TV box/stick.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

babsonnexus said:


> I wasn't saying that the Mi TV Stick was in of itself going to move the needle, but it combined with Google directly and a bunch of knockoff Android TV devices could move the needle against Roku/Amazon (especially as Roku gets more aggressive in their fee structures and either content providers or television builders look for cheaper options).


In one form or another "Android TV" has been out for a decade so unless things really change I wouldn't expect a model refresh here and there changing the landscape to any degree.






Logitech Revue (Google TV) review: Logitech Revue (Google TV)


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

Where are ALL the naysayers asking "why is (insert name) entering the streaming wars?" we already have Roku and NVidia and Amazon. I read many posts about how this business is all locked up by the 3 or 4 big boys and Tivo is doomed to failure. Since nobody is questioning the arrival of at least 2 more streamers I have to assume all that talk was Tivo related and not observations that the world needs no more streaming devices. You all know who you are. And guess what? 5 years from now streamers will still be developed and released. Maybe even the TS4K series 4. So lets see all the posts on how fruitless an effort Mi and Google are attempting by releasing streamers when the world needs no more!


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

Charles R said:


> In one form or another "Android TV" has been out for a decade so unless things really change I wouldn't expect a model refresh here and there changing the landscape to any degree.


What do you mean by "model refresh"?


mattyro7878 said:


> Where are ALL the naysayers asking "why is (insert name) entering the streaming wars?" we already have Roku and NVidia and Amazon. I read many posts about how this business is all locked up by the 3 or 4 big boys and Tivo is doomed to failure. Since nobody is questioning the arrival of at least 2 more streamers I have to assume all that talk was Tivo related and not observations that the world needs no more streaming devices. You all know who you are. And guess what? 5 years from now streamers will still be developed and released. Maybe even the TS4K series 4. So lets see all the posts on how fruitless an effort Mi and Google are attempting by releasing streamers when the world needs no more!


I'm probably not exactly the person you're looking for a response from, as I've never been one to say "so-and-so is late to the game". As someone who has never owned or used TiVo before the TS4K, I personally think TiVo is doomed to fail (in this particular venture) because their firmware is in beta at best and - from what I've read from some of you - it doesn't integrate with other TiVo services/devices and so doesn't do one of the things you'd expect a TiVo-branded device to do. I think the biggest issue is that they did a poor job of executing the TS4K release.

There's only really 3 platforms: Roku, Apple, and Google. Roku and Apple do their own software and hardware; Google is on everything else.

I could go on about the pros and cons of each streaming device, but the short of it is that Roku sucks (and they're skirting the edge of losing any ground they gained with their huge push to be included on smart TVs everywhere in 2018-2019) and Nvidia is stupidly overpriced for the majority of people. The "cheap" 32-bit "tube" version is a dumb purchase for anyone and the Pro is overkill for the average consumer. Apple is Apple: generally great hardware and software that anyone invested in the ecosystem will jump at purchasing at a premium. Amazon is a player because they sell their hardware a loss in exchange for your data (which they all do, of course, but Amazon is king of the game). Amazon uses Google's software, as does everyone else who isn't Roku or Apple.

The difference between Xiaomi and TiVo is that Xiaomi has a long history of making hardware and working with Android. TiVo does not. I've read before that TiVo is only still around because they hold patents that they license out. TiVo is key to the streaming experience we all accept as common use. That doesn't mean they have any business making a streaming device (and, arguably, the TS4K is a perfect example that they don't).


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## jimpmc (Oct 31, 2001)

rczrider said:


> What do you mean by "model refresh"?
> 
> I'm probably not exactly the person you're looking for a response from, as I've never been one to say "so-and-so is late to the game". As someone who has never owned or used TiVo before the TS4K, I personally think TiVo is doomed to fail (in this particular venture) because their firmware is in beta at best and - from what I've read from some of you - it doesn't integrate with other TiVo services/devices and so doesn't do one of the things you'd expect a TiVo-branded device to do. I think the biggest issue is that they did a poor job of executing the TS4K release.
> 
> ...


You are forgetting about Fire TV which is #2 in terms of adoption, unless you consider their fork of Android to be under Google.


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

jimpmc said:


> You are forgetting about Fire TV which is #2 in terms of adoption, unless you consider their fork of Android to be under Google.


Yes, I consider Fire OS to be under Google, as it _is_ Android. Without Google providing Android, Amazon would have to create their own solution (like Roku and to an extent, Apple).


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## AussieFigjam (Mar 5, 2020)

babsonnexus said:


> I'm happy to have gotten the Stream 4K because it has opened up my eyes to what Android TV can do and what's available.


Another Android TV convert. It really is a superior solution, and I hope it doesn't die like Betamax (most people under 50 probably won't get that reference).


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## ElT60 (May 27, 2020)

rczrider said:


> ....
> There's only really 3 platforms: Roku, Apple, and Google. Roku and Apple do their own software and hardware; Google is on everything else.


 This is a tad myopic in scope. Samsung's Tizen is substantial player ( AppleTV+ app showed up there first there along side of FireTV and Roku ). Not an accident that all three are SmartTV platforms. In terms of units sold TVs still outpace streaming sticks+boxes. The enumeration of all AndroidTV devices on this site Android TV Guide is three broad categories Pay-TV boxes , retail streaming boxes/sticks , Televisions.

Tivo Stream 4K competitie isn't just external stick+boxes, it is very much increasingly the TVs being plugged into themselves. (As 14nm gets even cheaper and the SoC iterate to even lower temps the same tech that is making these "small sticks" viable is same tech that allows for integration of more than decent hardware into the TV itself.).

Tivo Stream 4k with a generally lame update and security problems as 3-4 year old TVs isn't going to provide much of any differentiation. Part of the "value add" that Tivo could add is being nimble and diligent enough to keep up on the software "half" of the system. The baseline hardware here is generic. The Mi TV Stick , AirTV mini , Android 10 development box (and likely "Ultra 2" that Google puts out grounded on a refinement of that) and others are basically relatively minor variations the same reference design. One reason why these are cheaper. [ Probably not an coincident that Sling's AirTV mini also is has deep integration with Sling liveTV. In some sense if Tivo did the "work" there then Sling wouldn't have to anymore. But it is an odd pairing since one the orgs have deeply butted heads over DVR patents and two both have OTA DVR boxes. Not sure why that Tivo missed the deep synergies with their own base but also managed to blow up the link with the Sling OTA equipment also. ]

These retail versions are all running AndroidTV as a baseline so there are only software , certifications, and other "cross t's and dotting the i's " differentiation. People are going to pretty closely match them on hardware because Tivo isn't trying to out hardware engineer themselves.

Where TV has some AndroidTV experience is in the pay-TV box space. In the operator tier they can deliver a custom AndroidTV that takes over the primary "home screen" GUI interface. When Comcast/Xfninity hands out free Xfinity Flex boxes for free to their Intenet only customers (flex ) that is substantive competition for Tivo Stream 4k ( Xfinity Flex Surpasses One Million Devices Deployed and how long will it take Tivo to sell 1M of these 4K Streams 1-to-3 at a time? ) . Most major ISP operators are going to have a box ( ATT , Wow , CenturyLink, and Verizon already do. ) Perhaps that is the main focal point for Tivo ( selling a variant of the retail version of the OS to some operators but using the same hardware foundation. ) . Quality and timely along with sustain execution will matter. Tivo sold "better than the operators" DVRs for a long while. They will have to do the at least as well with "value add" here to have any kind of long term chance. ( it is the operators *and* the TVs need to better job than. )

Lumping FireTV and AndroidTV into the same bucket probably more of a narrow market view. ( not necessarily going to get NetFlix or the major streaming vendors with substantive DRM and quality criterion to point to those as being the "same thing". ). Google doesn't look at it that way.

Google blocks Android TV partners from Amazon Fire TV - 9to5Google

Although that is likely going to get them into a legal dust up with some Government agencies in some countries at some point.

What gets embedded at the TV level is increasingly going to matter.

"... On the device front, that OS revision will "come with significantly reduced hardware requirements" to make it cheaper to build smart TVs. Here, Google is described as trying to "appease TV manufacturers" and compete with Roku's lower specification requirements. ..." 
Report: Android TV getting a content-focused UI redesign - 9to5Google

That is why Android TV is reportedly shifting that way. If inside the display device when the user plugs it in for the first time. That will get market traction.

same article as immediately above. 
".. describes a "new user interface that will put a bigger emphasis on individual movies and TV shows." This is compared to the current approach where rows of content are sourced from clearly marked Android apps on the left-hand side. In-depth browsing today requires users interact with those third-party apps and experiences. .."

There is going to friction because some folks "like" apps first. ( same site Android TV's interface is its best feature - don't ruin it - 9to5Google ... first row apps and second row "shows" versus first row "shows" and second row apps being a huge GUI gap ... I am not so sure. )


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

AussieFigjam said:


> Another Android TV convert. It really is a superior solution, and I hope it doesn't die like Betamax (most people under 50 probably won't get that reference).


The more up to date reference is "I hope it doesn't die like many other Google ventures."


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

ElT60 said:


> ...


You were all over the board with this post (I don't say that as a criticism, just an observation) and so I'm not even going to try to address most of it. I'll keep my response relevant to what I posted (that there are only 3 major platforms).

I thought it was pretty clear we were talking about add-on devices (ie. those not built into the TV). I get that embedded systems aren't going anywhere and that they will in fact continue to grow. Of course TV sales outperform streaming device sales; you have to have a TV to use the streaming device on. I don't think anyone claimed otherwise.

Of course it was an oversimplification (I believe you used "myopic", though I personally would have used "parochial" since we're feeling the need to whip out the world-of-the-day calendar) to an extent. The industry is ridiculously fragmented; almost as fragmented as the streaming service industry, as everyone scrambles to get their piece of the pie. Yes, Tizen and WebOS exist, but they're largely irrelevant for the purpose of this thread ("here comes the competition"). Virtually no one bought their TV _for_ Tizen or _for_ WebOS; only if everything else were the same would you care one iota what comparatively awful OS the TV was running. I say "awful" because they are - compared to what you can get for a fraction of the cost of the TV that does the same and more - and you're stuck with it.

Within the context of this thread, I maintain that Roku, Apple, and Google are the only real competitors since (AFAIK) I can't go out and buy a Tizen streaming stick. If you don't want to lump Fire OS and Android together - even though Fire OS is literally just Android - that's personal preference.


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## babsonnexus (Jan 13, 2016)

AussieFigjam said:


> I hope it doesn't die like Betamax (most people under 50 probably won't get that reference).


The children should do their history homework:








AussieFigjam said:


> Another Android TV convert. It really is a superior solution


Yeah, I've pushed my TiVo's to their max (very few are going to make apps for TiVo's OS and aggregation is already poor), was a gen 1 FireTV user (can't stand the Amazon ecosystem and their content always taking over/no integration), and have been OK-ish with my Roku's for when I need them (but am greatly concerned that they have shifted from a neutral player to a content provider and gatekeeper). Android TV is as neutral as it seems to get right now--with the caveat that I know Google is harvesting and selling my data for anything I cannot block. Whatever apps are missing are not Google's fault (unlike Roku and Amazon, see HBO Max). It seems like Android TV can both be fine out of the box for the average user and still flexible enough for customization and hackability. I probably made a mistake going to Roku first, but that was almost 3 years ago, so I don't really have a good frame of reference of what was available for a reasonable price (looking at you NVidia Shield) and how it would compare to today's product. But I am much more hopeful for the future of this OS with the exception of...



powrcow said:


> The more up to date reference is "I hope it doesn't die like many other Google ventures."


I've been abandoning many Google enterprises before they can abandon me. I don't trust Google after being burned so many times. Photos still had not gotten all the features of Picasa! Despite that, I am an Android Phone, Wear OS, and now an Android TV guy, love Maps, have made good use of Photos, watch YouTube all the time, and enjoy single sign-on. But messaging, email, phone, voicemail, browser, cloud storage, calendar, podcasts, media outside YouTube, and much, much, more... I've moved on to better options.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Charles R said:


> In one form or another "Android TV" has been out for a decade so unless things really change I wouldn't expect a model refresh here and there changing the landscape to any degree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The logitech review was painfully slow and it cost $300 new.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

shwru980r said:


> The logitech review was painfully slow and it cost $300 new.


As was everything a decade ago.  Regarding the cost I got mine for free (developer program) and it was plenty fast and the IR integration was impressive. It boiled down to content as there were virtually none and what little there was often would be blocked by the provider such as ESPN.


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## ElT60 (May 27, 2020)

Probably bigger competition than some Xaomi Stick.

Exclusive: This is Google's Android TV dongle, remote, and new UI

Live TV tab on the main screen. If that is a customization Google allows itself only on this device than that is one thing ( to make YouTube TV highly visible) . If that is Androd TV standard tab then will be interesting if that is settable. ( sort of how search engine is settable as default search in web browsers ( Chrome , Firefox , etc URL text entry box. ) ). So could possibly set it to YouTube TV , Live Channels , or some other 3rd party. Or just a YouTube TV sitting on every Android TV 10 home screen.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

rczrider said:


> Yes, Tizen and WebOS exist, but they're largely irrelevant for the purpose of this thread ("here comes the competition"). Virtually no one bought their TV _for_ Tizen or _for_ WebOS; only if everything else were the same would you care one iota what comparatively awful OS the TV was running. I say "awful" because they are - compared to what you can get for a fraction of the cost of the TV that does the same and more - and you're stuck with it.
> 
> Within the context of this thread, I maintain that Roku, Apple, and Google are the only real competitors since (AFAIK) I can't go out and buy a Tizen streaming stick. If you don't want to lump Fire OS and Android together - even though Fire OS is literally just Android - that's personal preference.


 Tivo is competing against smartvs too. I mean I bought a cheap TCL Roku 55" tv for my basement and I didn't need a box because it works good enough for streaming. That's a potential STream sale down the toilet or delayed for years at least.

The way I see it is the processing power needed to stream is stagnating while the costs of that processing power continue to drop. Making what's built into tvs not only work perfectly fine nowadays but also have a longer lifespan.

PLus Xperi is going to try to get Tivo Stream 4k into tvs. That's one reason for their merger.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

End the madness, no more dongles, no more non-ethernet devices. Purge the toys..


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## siratfus (Oct 3, 2008)

ElT60 said:


> Probably bigger competition than some Xaomi Stick.
> 
> Exclusive: This is Google's Android TV dongle, remote, and new UI
> 
> Live TV tab on the main screen. If that is a customization Google allows itself only on this device than that is one thing ( to make YouTube TV highly visible) . If that is Androd TV standard tab then will be interesting if that is settable. ( sort of how search engine is settable as default search in web browsers ( Chrome , Firefox , etc URL text entry box. ) ). So could possibly set it to YouTube TV , Live Channels , or some other 3rd party. Or just a YouTube TV sitting on every Android TV 10 home screen.


Ooh... I'll be getting this too!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I've owned now a couple of smart TVs (Samsung and Vizio) and neither handle streaming very well at all. On both, I connected Roku devices because they were so piss poor at streaming.


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

ElT60 said:


> Probably bigger competition than some Xaomi Stick.
> 
> Exclusive: This is Google's Android TV dongle, remote, and new UI
> 
> Live TV tab on the main screen. If that is a customization Google allows itself only on this device than that is one thing ( to make YouTube TV highly visible) . If that is Androd TV standard tab then will be interesting if that is settable. ( sort of how search engine is settable as default search in web browsers ( Chrome , Firefox , etc URL text entry box. ) ). So could possibly set it to YouTube TV , Live Channels , or some other 3rd party. Or just a YouTube TV sitting on every Android TV 10 home screen.


Maybe. You have to look at price points. What's compelling about the TS4K right now is the $50 price tag. If the software worked (a big if since it currently does not), there's not a thing Google's dongle (hehe) would realistically do to make it worth paying 60% more for it.

Enter the Xiaomi Mi Stick: if it costs $80, then that's a hard pass. I'd rather buy the Google product for the same cost if for no other reason than it will almost certainly have better, longer-term support.

Of course, the reality is that the only device currently out _is_ the TS4K and it's riddled with bugs. Mine's going back (which reminds me, I need to call them today) since my Mi Box and Fire Stick 4K do the job right now. But let's not ignore the fact that the TS4K costs way less than the competition is projected to cost and has a USB-C port for Ethernet and additional storage (which, I realize, is hit-or-miss for folks, but eventually we'll know what works well).


tenthplanet said:


> End the madness, no more dongles, no more non-ethernet devices. Purge the toys..


I never understood this sentiment. Are all of y'all using a congested and slow BGN network or something? My house isn't small, but it's small enough to be served by a single, centralized AC router. All of my streaming devices are AC, so they use the 5GHz band. I can stream 4K content on 3 different devices (the most I've tried at once) without issue. The same 3 devices can do 4K HEVC content provided by a network-connected Plex server without issue, as well.


Bierboy said:


> I've owned now a couple of smart TVs (Samsung and Vizio) and neither handle streaming very well at all. On both, I connected Roku devices because they were so piss pi$$ poor at streaming.


My TCL has Roku Ultra-level hardware in it and it streams fine*.

* I hate Roku, by the way, which is why I use non-Roku streaming devices.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Wi-fi is horrible for apartment dwellers, most people in this country live close to one another in small spaces. Wi-fi is a toy for the affulent home owners with space, not the cramped just getting by. Visit the city, get out of the suburbs..Reality awaits..


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

tenthplanet said:


> End the madness, no more dongles, no more non-ethernet devices. Purge the toys..


My cheap Roku tv has Ethernet.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Charles R said:


> In one form or another "Android TV" has been out for a decade so unless things really change I wouldn't expect a model refresh here and there changing the landscape to any degree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Wow!! That review is a Blast from the Past!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

tenthplanet said:


> End the madness, no more dongles, no more non-ethernet devices. Purge the toys..


The wifi with the Stream 4K was one of the great things about it. Rock solid throughput exceeding 300Mb/s up/down. It could stream UHD files exceeding 100Mb/s bitrates with no issues. But thne that is the case with most devices I own. If a device only has a 100Mb/s ethernet port then I typically use it's wireless AC connection. Since that will typically get much higher throughput than it's 100Mb/s Ethernet connection.

But any device that has a GigE port, I use their wired connection.

I live in a condo and use five Wireless Access Points. To accomodate my 60+ wifi devices. To make sure they always have excellent signal strength, can get max speeds, and have no congestion issues.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> My cheap Roku tv has Ethernet.


I use wifi with my TCL ROku TV(just like with my Sony Android TV). Since it's the only way I could play very high bitrate UHD files. Bitrates exceeding 100Mb/s. From the software built into the TV.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> Wow!! That review is a Blast from the Past!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

tenthplanet said:


> ... Wi-fi is a toy for the *affulent home owners* with space, not the cramped just getting by...


You're kidding....right?


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> You're kidding....right?


Nope, any one working from home needs ethernet, it's a tool. Your neighbors microwave can interfere with wi-fi. Toys..


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

tenthplanet said:


> Nope, any one working from home needs ethernet, it's a tool. Your neighbors microwave can interfere with wi-fi. Toys..


I am (and have been for many years) a homeowner; I work from both the office and home, but I am FAR from affluent. And I don't consider my wifi a "toy".


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

tenthplanet said:


> Wi-fi is horrible for apartment dwellers, most people in this country live close to one another in small spaces. Wi-fi is a toy for the affulent home owners with space, not the cramped just getting by. Visit the city, get out of the suburbs..Reality awaits..





tenthplanet said:


> Nope, any one working from home needs ethernet, it's a tool. Your neighbors microwave can interfere with wi-fi. Toys..


Ah, okay, now I get it. You're stuck in 2014.

802.11ac / Wi-Fi 5 uses the 5GHz spectrum which is _significantly_ less crowded than the 2.4GHz spectrum of 802.11bgn. If you're telling me a microwave can interfere with your internet (which, along with things like baby monitors and cordless phones, is true), that means you should be spending your money on a new router and not streaming devices. Usage of the 5GHz spectrum in population-dense areas (aka, apartments) simply is not an issue.

Also, I worked from home 50% of the time before quarantine and have been doing it 100% for more than 3 months. But I guess my $40 router makes me "affluent", eh?


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## babsonnexus (Jan 13, 2016)

And now TCL is bringing their Android TV-based sets to the United States:

TCL starts selling Android TV models in the US - 9to5Google

So to whoever above was talking about the OS being built into sets, there you go!


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## ElT60 (May 27, 2020)

babsonnexus said:


> And now TCL is bringing their Android TV-based sets to the United States:
> 
> TCL starts selling Android TV models in the US - 9to5Google
> 
> So to whoever above was talking about the OS being built into sets, there you go!


 There are more than a few doing this already.

Android TV Guide - Televisions

Often they haven't been imported into the USA. ( and the manufacturers that committed to FireTV have problems if also have phones they construct. Google licensing of Android doesn't mix well with non Play Store Android implementations. ). Sony has been on Android TV for awhile. Hisense also. However, back in 2019 TCL jump to #1 for a while in terms of units sold ( not in revenue made, that was Samsung. ). In terms, of getting more units sold this should help at the low-mid range of the market.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

tenthplanet said:


> Nope, any one working from home needs ethernet, it's a tool. Your neighbors microwave can interfere with wi-fi. Toys..


Only if your wifi is not setup properly. In the last thirteen years,I have never had a microwave affect my 2.4ghz wifi. But then I have a properly setup wifi network. Which also means not putting an Access Point right next to a microwave.

I've always had multiple Access Points setup, whichnis also required for a properly setup wifi network. Currently I use five APs. And I still use both 2.4ghz and 5ghz wif(and hopefully 6ghz soon) to accommodate my over sixty wifi devices at home.

Sent from my Tab A 8.0


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

babsonnexus said:


> And now TCL is bringing their Android TV-based sets to the United States:
> 
> TCL starts selling Android TV models in the US - 9to5Google
> 
> So to whoever above was talking about the OS being built into sets, there you go!


That is interesting that they will start doing that. Your average consumer is already confused. That will add even more confusion to the average consumer.

Sent from my Tab A 8.0


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

aaronwt said:


> Only if your wifi is not setup properly. In the last thirteen years,I have never had a microwave affect my 2.4ghz wifi. But then I have a properly setup wifi network. Which also means not putting an Access Point right next to a microwave.


In their defense, they're right that the 2.4GHz spectrum is insanely crowded in population-dense areas. I agree that while your microwave _can_ interfere, it generally doesn't. The 2.4GHz spectrum is something of a free-for-all, so cordless phones and baby monitors are more likely to be an issue. And if you live in NYC, for example, you might genuinely have trouble running a BGN network.

But AC / 5GHz isn't exactly new. If a person can spend $50 on a streaming device, they can shell out the same for a better wireless router. They're not expensive.


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