# TiVo ATSC 3.0



## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dave Zatz posted a video this morning from TiVo that discusses ATSC 3.0 and the potential of an external add on tuner that would be required.






Help me understand this:

I assume, this is OTA only? 
I assume this is a new broadcast standard that the onboard tuners cannot support? 
I assume the external device they are suggesting would replace / bypass existing onboard tuners? 
I assume the broadcasters would be required to send dual signals similar to the digital conversion?

I am not sure what the benefit to the consumer is to actively get external hardware to utilize ATSC 3.0 instead of using the legacy broadcast.

Am I understanding this or am I all over the place?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Also see: ATSC 3, 5G and Tivo


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

bradleys said:


> Dave Zatz posted a video this morning from TiVo that discusses ATSC 3.0 and the potential of an external add on tuner that would be required.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ATSC 3.0 is a new OTA standard, but it would be interesting as an add-on for the cable Bolts as well, since it's just a network tuner.

New tuning hardware is required.

This appears to be an add-on tuner. It connects to your network (it'll eventually be a self-contained tuning device) and Tivo records the IP output stream with software. No Tivo tuner used, presumably.

Presently, broadcasters will have to continue broadcasting ATSC 1.0 for 5 years after they start ATSC 3.0.

The benefit is 4K OTA programming, or 1080p programming if the broadcaster decides to go that route. Current ATSC 1.0 1080i/720p broadcasts might actually decrease in quality due to bandwidth constraints.

I think Tivo/Arris will eventually release an OTA DVR with native ATSC 3.0 support, but this works in the meantime I guess.


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> ATSC 3.0 is a new OTA standard, but it would be interesting as an add-on for the cable Bolts as well, since it's just a network tuner.
> 
> New tuning hardware is required.
> 
> ...


The big question is - works with what? Christ, we wait over a decade for the broadcasters to pick ATSC and HD and then spent another two decades just getting into most markets. ATSC 3.0? As if.

It's nice to see Tivo trying to innovate again but damn, I sure wish they'd focus on UX. LIke...all hands on friggin' deck. Seems to me if they plan on being relevant as a somewhat hardware-agnostic software company, they really really need to get the UX right. Yet, here we are dicking around with ATSC 3.0 and Auto-Skip. Whoopee.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

What codec is ATSC 3.0 going to use for HD? H.264 or HEVC? I know they'll have to use HEVC if they want to do UHD, but what are they settling on for HD? I think the Bolt is the only TiVo with HEVC decoding capabilities so if they use that then the Bolt will be the only TiVo capable of using this thing.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> What codec is ATSC 3.0 going to use for HD? H.264 or HEVC? I know they'll have to use HEVC if they want to do UHD, but what are they settling on for HD? I think the Bolt is the only TiVo with HEVC decoding capabilities so if they use that then the Bolt will be the only TiVo capable of using this thing.


ATSC 3.0 can support H.264 but it's broadly believed that everything -- 4K, HD, SD -- will be done in HEVC H.265 since it's more efficient. No point in wasting bandwidth.


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## gigaquad (Oct 25, 2004)

Ugh, another excuse to sell more TVs and hardware. Thanks Government. I really love you guys changing everything just about the time I get it all situated like i like it. 
I really couldn't care less if we have 4k. We get 1080, 720, and 480 here and I can watch either and be happy.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

gigaquad said:


> Ugh, another excuse to sell more TVs and hardware. Thanks Government. I really love you guys changing everything just about the time I get it all situated like i like it.
> I really couldn't care less if we have 4k. We get 1080, 720, and 480 here and I can watch either and be happy.


Don't worry--you have a few days.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Yeah well if HEVC was so great then why doesn't Netflix et al use it. Shouldn't it save a ton of money for the super popular shows even when only some users have the capability ?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jth tv said:


> Yeah well if HEVC was so great then why doesn't Netflix et al use it. Shouldn't it save a ton of money for the super popular shows ?


Not many hardware platforms support it yet. HEVC is currently used for all UHD streaming, because devices that support UHD also support HEVC, but many of the HD only devices out there only support H.264 so Netflix, etc... use H.264 for HD/SD because it affords them broader support.

As HEVC decoding becomes standard on more devices there will likely come a time when these platforms switch over. Even in it's cheapest form HEVC can encode video ~20-30% more efficiently then H.264 for the same quality. It's unlikely to get to the full 50% for HD but even that 20-30% could make a big difference for streaming services like Netflix that consume an enormous amount of bandwidth.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

So the idea here for TiVo is to create an HDHomeRun type tuner for ATSC 3.0 that the TiVo then uses via the network to record? I wonder if that means it would work with Cable only Bolts?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> So the idea here for TiVo is to create an HDHomeRun type tuner for ATSC 3.0 that the TiVo then uses via the network to record? I wonder if that means it would work with Cable only Bolts?


I was wondering that, as well. I would think that it would *have* to work with OTA-only TiVo models, so my guess is that CableCARD-only models might be excluded.

I remain puzzled that TiVo hasn't managed to partner with SiliconDust to enable integration of their networked tuners.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

FWIW, another article on the subject, posted by Cord Cutter News, previously linked by @b_scott ...

TiVo Is Working on Upgrading Current DVRs to ATSC 3.0 - Cord Cutters News


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

krkaufman said:


> I was wondering that, as well. I would think that it would *have* to work with OTA-only TiVo models, so my guess is that CableCARD-only models might be excluded.


Why? Seems to me that it wouldn't matter what kind of tuners (whether OTA or QAM cable) that a Bolt has in it, it could still potentially work with an external 3.0 tuner. It's just a matter of the software on the Bolt communicating to the external tuner which channel to tune in and then receiving the tuner's IP stream via ethernet (or possibly wifi), loading it into the Bolt buffer and recording it to its hard drive.


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## dadrepus (Jan 4, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> Why? Seems to me that it wouldn't matter what kind of tuners (whether OTA or QAM cable) that a Bolt has in it, it could still potentially work with an external 3.0 tuner. It's just a matter of the software on the Bolt communicating to the external tuner which channel to tune in and then receiving the tuner's IP stream via ethernet (or possibly wifi), loading it into the Bolt buffer and recording it to its hard drive.


This is exactly what I perceived from the demo. The tuner is capturing the signal. The computer is processing the signal and sending it to the Tivo via ethernet, which in turn records the stream to its hard drive for future/concurrent viewing. So, this proof of concept seems to work and shows Tivo is not abandoning the retail market or its current customer base, Good work Tivo.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

A Bolt can be used to watch shows recorded on a Roamio. I would expect the Bolt would be able to watch shows recorded on a ATSC 3.0 Tivo dvr.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

dadrepus said:


> This is exactly what I perceived from the demo. The tuner is capturing the signal. The computer is processing the signal and sending it to the Tivo via ethernet, which in turn records the stream to its hard drive for future/concurrent viewing. So, this proof of concept seems to work and shows Tivo is not abandoning the retail market or its current customer base, Good work Tivo.


Right. And really, the computer shouldn't have any real processing to do with the signal itself, since ATSC 3.0 signals are just HEVC-encoded IP streams. I really don't think that the raw output of the tuner is different from an HEVC stream from Netflix or Prime Video. My guess is that the computer connected to the tuner is just there to receive commands from the TiVo (tune to RF channel 27) and then to take the tuner's output and know how to send it back to the TiVo via ethernet.


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## dadrepus (Jan 4, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> Right. And really, the computer shouldn't have any real processing to do with the signal itself, since ATSC 3.0 signals are just HEVC-encoded IP streams. I really don't think that the raw output of the tuner is different from an HEVC stream from Netflix or Prime Video. My guess is that the computer connected to the tuner is just there to receive commands from the TiVo (tune to RF channel 27) and then to take the tuner's output and know how to send it back to the TiVo via ethernet.


 You are right I assume. What I meant to say is "the computer sends the signal to the tivo via ethernet. I wonder, does this mean that they are working on recording "all" streaming inputs.ie: Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, Disney? it would be so nice if I didn't have to switch to those different services to watch the few shows I want and could download them to my Tivo for future watching. Probably a pipe dream


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

In short, it's good to see TiVo working to fight being made obsolete, and to having the core of its functionality for the consumer simply disappearing.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

dadrepus said:


> You are right I assume. What I meant to say is "the computer sends the signal to the tivo via ethernet. I wonder, does this mean that they are working on recording "all" streaming inputs.ie: Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, Disney? it would be so nice if I didn't have to switch to those different services to watch the few shows I want and could download them to my Tivo for future watching. Probably a pipe dream


Technologically, it would be pretty simple. But for business reasons (fear of easy redistribution of pristine copies of copyrighted material), Netflix, etc. will never allow it. So yeah, a pipe dream.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Technologically, it would be pretty simple. But for business reasons (fear of easy redistribution of pristine copies of copyrighted material), Netflix, etc. will never allow it. So yeah, a pipe dream.


And yet Netflix allows download to devices . Wouldn't that have the same issues?


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

TonyD79 said:


> And yet Netflix allows download to devices . Wouldn't that have the same issues?


Netflix downloads have technical measures in place to prevent copying, periodically check subscription entitlement, etc. There's no reason that can't be done on the TiVo platform, they've got CableLabs certification and support do-not-copy flags and whatnot. The real hurdle is developer effort. Netflix did the work for Android, iOs, etc. because that's a huge chunk of their installed base and it's especially useful on mobile devices (i.e. airplanes). Getting that on TiVo is a lot of effort for a much smaller piece of the subscriber base. It would probably involve substantial cooperation from TiVo too since it's probably well beyond what the app platform can do.

For myself, I wouldn't see much value in being able to download something from an on demand streaming service like Netflix onto my TiVo, but I'd very much like to have the TiVo experience with something like Sling, YouTube TV, Philo, etc. Especially if that can seamlessly blend sources (OTA + Philo would be a perfect fit for me).


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

OrangeCrush said:


> Netflix downloads have technical measures in place to prevent copying, periodically check subscription entitlement, etc. There's no reason that can't be done on the TiVo platform, they've got CableLabs certification and support do-not-copy flags and whatnot. The real hurdle is developer effort. Netflix did the work for Android, iOs, etc. because that's a huge chunk of their installed base and it's especially useful on mobile devices (i.e. airplanes). Getting that on TiVo is a lot of effort for a much smaller piece of the subscriber base. It would probably involve substantial cooperation from TiVo too since it's probably well beyond what the app platform can do.


Yep, everything you said. Only point I would add is that those apps allowing downloads, such as Netflix, Disney+, etc., only allow the downloaded file to be accessed within their own app. It's not something that can be viewed within a third-party UI, such as the TiVo UI that is used with CableCARD-enabled recordings.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

What if TiVo only produced the standard 4 tuner Bolt from now on. Then they offered the ability to add 4 more tuners via an external box that sits on your network. Cable OR OTA. Then you can choose if you want your TiVo to have 8 OTA tuners, 8 cable tuners* or 4 of each. TiVo would only have to produce one DVR and customers would get more flexibility in choosing the tuner setup that works best for them.

* This setup would require two CableCARDs as you'd need one in the TiVo for it's 4 tuners and then another in the external box for it's 4 tuners.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

OrangeCrush said:


> Netflix downloads have technical measures in place to prevent copying, periodically check subscription entitlement, etc. There's no reason that can't be done on the TiVo platform, they've got CableLabs certification and support do-not-copy flags and whatnot. The real hurdle is developer effort. Netflix did the work for Android, iOs, etc. because that's a huge chunk of their installed base and it's especially useful on mobile devices (i.e. airplanes). Getting that on TiVo is a lot of effort for a much smaller piece of the subscriber base. It would probably involve substantial cooperation from TiVo too since it's probably well beyond what the app platform can do.
> 
> For myself, I wouldn't see much value in being able to download something from an on demand streaming service like Netflix onto my TiVo, but I'd very much like to have the TiVo experience with something like Sling, YouTube TV, Philo, etc. Especially if that can seamlessly blend sources (OTA + Philo would be a perfect fit for me).


Those mobile platforms also work in a sandbox style environment where the app itself has access to a protected section of storage that only it can access. If they did the same thing on TiVo, where you could download shows but could only see and manage those downloads via the app, it wouldn't be really fitting into DVR platform like people would expect. I think the people that request these features are looking for something akin to the old Amazon download service TiVo use to offer. That required a massive integration effort between TiVo and Amazon and wasn't as simple as the developer of the app enabling downloads.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> What if TiVo only produced the standard 4 tuner Bolt from now on. Then they offered the ability to add 4 more tuners via an external box that sits on your network. Cable OR OTA. Then you can choose if you want your TiVo to have 8 OTA tuners, 8 cable tuners* or 4 of each. TiVo would only have to produce one DVR and customers would get more flexibility in choosing the tuner setup that works best for them.
> 
> * This setup would require two CableCARDs as you'd need one in the TiVo for it's 4 tuners and then another in the external box for it's 4 tuners.


OK. But why not take the concept a couple steps further and not include any tuners in the TiVo, putting them all out on the network, connected to your router by ethernet or fast wifi? Multiple tuner boxes could be used, and come in both OTA and CableCARD formats. Each tuner box could have a USB 3.0 input so that a hard drive could be connected to store recordings. And then any device on the network using the new TiVo app (Apple TV, Fire TV, Roku, mobile) could view live and recorded TV, manage recordings, etc. (This would be similar to the upcoming HDHomeRun Scribe Duo device.) For a first-class TiVo experience, you could buy a small TiVo Android TV box with the Hydra UI as its home screen and a peanut remote (i.e. what they're pitching now as a STB for IPTV MVPD partners).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> OK. But why not take the concept a couple steps further and not include any tuners in the TiVo, putting them all out on the network, connected to your router by ethernet or fast wifi? Multiple tuner boxes could be used, and come in both OTA and CableCARD formats. Each tuner box could have a USB 3.0 input so that a hard drive could be connected to store recordings. And then any device on the network using the new TiVo app (Apple TV, Fire TV, Roku, mobile) could view live and recorded TV, manage recordings, etc. (This would be similar to the upcoming HDHomeRun Scribe Duo device.) For a first-class TiVo experience, you could buy a small TiVo Android TV box with the Hydra UI as its home screen and a peanut remote (i.e. what they're pitching now as a STB for IPTV MVPD partners).


That's a bit too "techy" for the masses. You gotta have some tuners in the box or you lose the non-tech savvy crowd.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> That's a bit too "techy" for the masses. You gotta have some tuners in the box or you lose the non-tech savvy crowd.


Maybe. I think if it's marketed right and made really user-friendly and easy to set up (which one would expect from the TiVo brand), it could work. Tablo does a pretty good job of it, I think; I tried it once and it was dead simple to set up. This is also the model that the Fire TV Recast uses (although the hard drive isn't external with it).

For those who want an all-in-one solution, TiVo could bundle together a tuner box, compatible hard drive, and a TiVo Android TV streamer all together in one package. Should be as simple as: 1) plug the tuner box into the router, 2) plug the hard drive into the tuner box, then 3) plug the streamer into the TV. Once the streamer boots up, it should automatically find and configure any tuner boxes on the local network.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> Maybe. I think if it's marketed right and made really user-friendly and easy to set up (which one would expect from the TiVo brand), it could work. Tablo does a pretty good job of it, I think; I tried it once and it was dead simple to set up. This is also the model that the Fire TV Recast uses (although the hard drive isn't external with it).
> 
> For those who want an all-in-one solution, TiVo could bundle together a tuner box, compatible hard drive, and a TiVo Android TV streamer all together in one package. Should be as simple as: 1) plug the tuner box into the router, 2) plug the hard drive into the tuner box, then 3) plug the streamer into the TV. Once the streamer boots up, it should automatically find and configure any tuner boxes on the local network.


The network stuff is too complicated for most people. Especially if it requires wired or MoCa and doesn't work with wifi.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> What if TiVo only produced the standard 4 tuner Bolt from now on. Then they offered the ability to add 4 more tuners via an external box that sits on your network.


Ira Bahr considered it "interesting" 4 years ago, and said they were looking at ways to expand the number of tuners.


Ira Bahr said:


> Interesting idea. We're looking at ways to expand the tuner count and will not degrade the experience for the customer. With that comes certain challenges but we are actively looking at it.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> The network stuff is too complicated for most people. Especially if it requires wired or MoCa and doesn't work with wifi.


I'd say that setting up either an OTA Tablo or HD HomeRun has to be easier than setting up a CableCARD in a TiVo, based on the tons of first-person CableCARD stories I've read on this forum over the years.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> I'd say that setting up either an OTA Tablo or HD HomeRun has to be easier than setting up a CableCARD in a TiVo, based on the tons of first-person CableCARD stories I've read on this forum over the years.


Setting up an HDHomeRun with CableCARD is exactly the same as setting up a TiVo from the perspective of dealing with the cable company. But a bit worse in that it requires a PC to see what's going on so it doesn't just show up on the TV where the installer can just see it.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Setting up an HDHomeRun with CableCARD is exactly the same as setting up a TiVo from the perspective of dealing with the cable company. But a bit worse in that it requires a PC to see what's going on so it doesn't just show up on the TV where the installer can just see it.


My point is that a CableCARD-equipped TiVo Bolt, a product that you (I think) would say is not too complicated or "techy" for the masses, is, IMO, more complicated to set up than a network-connected OTA DVR such as Tablo or Fire TV Recast.

At any rate, I'll be surprised if we see any kind of new products from TiVo that involve CableCARD. I think the Bolt is the end of the line. Maybe we'll see existing CableCARD-equipped (and OTA) TiVo DVRs gain the ability to use external OTA tuners but I really don't see TiVo rolling out external network-connected CableCARD tuners that would let the Bolt, Roamio, etc. record on additional channels simultaneously. There's really just no market for it.


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

So the thinking is to expect this prospective ATSC 3.0 network tuner to only produce IP streams of HEVC compressed video. Therefore can only be received on the Bolt models which have HEVC decoders and not on the Roamio and earlier models which don't?

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Since ATSC 3.0 will typically be using HEVC then I would expect that to be the case.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

It's all about bandwidth efficiency.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

HoTatII said:


> So the thinking is to expect this prospective ATSC 3.0 network tuner to only produce IP streams of HEVC compressed video. Therefore can only be received on the Bolt models which have HEVC decoders and not on the Roamio and earlier models which don't?


Right, unless the external network tuner had the processing power to do on-the-fly transcoding from HEVC (H.265) to AVC (H.264), which the Roamio does support. But that would increase the cost of the tuner.

And we should all keep in mind that what TiVo did with this external ATSC 3.0 tuner at the NAB show recently was just a proof-of-concept. There's still a lot we don't know about the specifics of how actual 3.0 broadcasts will be deployed, including whether they might be laced with some sort of DRM that places restrictions around recording, copying and playback.


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## Jim1348 (Jan 3, 2015)

I am so glad that Tivo is making plans to use ATSC on existing devices. I have a Tivo Roamio OTA and, if I can continue to use it by getting an adapter, I would much rather do that than buy all new equipment.


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

NashGuy said:


> Right, unless the external network tuner had the processing power to do on-the-fly transcoding from HEVC (H.265) to AVC (H.264), which the Roamio does support. But that would increase the cost of the tuner.
> 
> And we should all keep in mind that what TiVo did with this external ATSC 3.0 tuner at the NAB show recently was just a proof-of-concept. There's still a lot we don't know about the specifics of how actual 3.0 broadcasts will be deployed, including whether they might be laced with some sort of DRM that places restrictions around recording, copying and playback.


Ok, now one other rather general question about ATSC 3.0 not pertaining to the TiVos specifically.

I understand the FCC is mandating the stations that plan to convert to 3.0 must maintain their legacy ATSC 1.0 broadcasts for at least 5 years.

I imagine this only applies to the expected ("very") few early converters since with the number of TV RF channels is now down to only 35. Needless to say, there isn't much room for simulcasting on two RF channels any longer like when chs. 2-69 were available.

Particularly in crowded markets like here in L.A.

The FCC is going to have to allow stations to simply flash-cut to 3.0 on their present channels at some point.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

HoTatII said:


> Ok, now one other rather general question about ATSC 3.0 not pertaining to the TiVos specifically.
> 
> I understand the FCC is mandating the stations that plan to convert to 3.0 must maintain their legacy ATSC 1.0 broadcasts for at least 5 years.
> 
> ...


What's going to happen in many cases is that stations will work together to deploy ATSC 3.0 by sharing their spectrum and putting more than one stations' signals on the same tower. The simplest way this might happen is a pair-up.

For instance, here in Nashville, Sinclair owns three stations: Fox 17, CW 58 and MyTV 30. Nexstar owns ABC 2. We might see Sinclair put the ATSC 1.0 signals for both Fox 17 and CW 58 on Fox 17's tower. Meanwhile, they put the ATSC 3.0 signals for both stations on the CW 58 tower.

Likewise, the ATSC 1.0 signals for both ABC 2 and and MyTV 30 might go on the ABC 2 tower while the ATSC 3.0 signals for both stations go on the MyTV 30 tower. Sinclair and Nexstar have already formed a spectrum sharing consortium for such arrangements and have invited other broadcast owners to join in.

In such an arrangement, we would expect to see the two towers with the 1.0 signals continue to operate for at least 5 years (per FCC rules). At some point after that, based on how successful those stations had been in getting the public (and, maybe more importantly, cable/satellite systems) to switch over to their 3.0 signals, they would cease the 1.0 broadcasts on those two towers and convert both to broadcasting in 3.0, with each station again having its own tower.

The obvious down-side to such an arrangement, of course, is that you would have the existing 1.0 stations squeezed into just _half_ the amount of bandwidth that they have now. So expect a drop in picture quality, or the loss of some SD subchannels, or both. That said, the latest generation of MPEG-2 encoders can apparently handle up to two 720p and six 480i subchannels on the same ATSC 1.0 tower while maintaining "acceptable" picture quality.

Of course, folks like me who really care about picture quality would just upgrade to an ATSC 3.0 tuner. (Or stream all that network content on Hulu and CBS All Access, which is what the broadcast networks would prefer you do, but that's another subject...)


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## gary.buhrmaster (Nov 5, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> What's going to happen in many cases is that stations will work together to deploy ATSC 3.0 by sharing their spectrum and putting more than one stations' signals on the same tower. The simplest way this might happen is a pair-up.


Agreed. In more diverse markets (i.e. those where one company does not own multiple stations), the broadcasters (and the FCC) have presumed that agreements (from what have been strong competitors) will have to happen to move forward with ATSC 3.0. Talk about strange bedfellows. It is entirely possible one transmitter in some locations will mux multiple ATSC 1.0 channels (ABC + CBS + FOX, etc.) to meet the FCC 5 year requirements (the sacrificial broadcast transmitter?).

In those locations with translators for coverage things are going to get even more interesting (translators are not fully protected in either the spectrum repack or the ATSC 3.0 transition requirements, although the broadcasters clearly want to not disenfranchise their viewers).

And while (this time) the FCC is not going to subsidize the converters, it is expected there will be the equivalent of the digital transition converters for ATSC 3.0 to HDMI for those that want/need it to support their legacy TVs (they were being sold in S. Korea at least a year ago).


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Yeah. The whole transition is likely to be a long, messy slog. Even though stations will legally be able to stop broadcasting in ATSC 1.0 five years after they start broadcasting in 3.0, I don't expect too many affiliates of the big 4 networks to do that because there will still be a lot of OTA viewers (especially poorer and older ones) who won't yet have spent the money to upgrade to either a new TV or an external box with an ATSC 3.0 tuner by then. 

But what I can see happening in the latter half of the 2020s (maybe even before then) is there only being one or two towers in a given market still broadcasting in ATSC 1.0 carrying SD-only feeds of all the major stations in that market. Even with just a single tower, a good encoder would have no problem getting widescreen SD feeds of ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, The CW, PBS, Telemundo, and one or two more channels on a single ATSC 1.0 tower. Meanwhile, all the other towers in that market will be broadcasting ASTC 3.0 and there will be very little spectrum sharing on those towers between competing stations.


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

This guy drove around Baltimore comparing a full-power ATSC 1.0 broadcast and a low-power ATSC 3.0 broadcast. The 1.0 was constantly breaking up, but the 3.0 was rock-solid the whole time.


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## Jim1348 (Jan 3, 2015)

Did anybody here see much about ATSC 3.0 from the recent CES 2020?

I did find this while doing a search.

I am currently a TiVo Roamio OTA owner. I would like to be able to swap out the legacy tuners for ATSC 3.0 tuners, but I suspect that it would not be an easy task. Wouldn't it be great if it could be readily upgraded, much like how people upgrade desktop computer video cards!

CES 2020: ATSC 3.0 Ready to Roll Out

https://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/ces-to-mark-debut-of-atsc-3-0-consumer-products


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

Jim1348 said:


> Did anybody here see much about ATSC 3.0 from the recent CES 2020?
> 
> I did find this while doing a search.
> 
> ...


We need a multiple tuner ATSC 3.0 _GATEWAY_ device to be able to do that. That's NOT simply a stand-alone ATSC 3.0 tuner, that just hooks to something else via HDMI.

That means they get hooked to our routers internal to our LAN, and then our Tivo must be able to connect to them via IP, either wired or wireless via DLNA. That way other devices on our network would also be able to use them if needed. Such as an older ATSC 1.0 only tv set. It also likely means Tivo would have to release a new firmware capable of connecting to it.

I'm not sure if this device will work for that, but it might: https://www.tvtechnology.com/equipment/apollo-publictv-releasing-nextgen-tv-receivers


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

Jim1348 said:


> Did anybody here see much about ATSC 3.0 from the recent CES 2020?


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## Jim1348 (Jan 3, 2015)

Thanks you for the replies. Obviously, I/we have quite a bit of time to prepare for the switch. I recall that once a broadcaster starts broadcasting ATSC 3.0, they have to also broadcast ATSC 1.0, too, for five years.

One of the things I like about my Tivo Roamio OTA is there are no recurring monthly fees. Only time will tell if that is offered on future devices with ATSC 3.0. The good things is there _might_ be some additional competition by then. In all honesty, my Tivo Roamio OTA is primarily for my wife. If I had to use something else today, I might consider the Amazon Fire TV Recast. If it doesn't have a recurring fee for the guide, it could be a good option for us.


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## Fugacity (Oct 1, 2004)

MikeBear said:


> We need a multiple tuner ATSC 3.0 _GATEWAY_ device to be able to do that


You mean something like this?






Found at TiVo Demos ATSC 3.0 Network Tuner To Retrofit Existing DVRs


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

Yes, but that's not an actual device as of yet, only a prototype.


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## Fugacity (Oct 1, 2004)

MikeBear said:


> Yes, but that's not an actual device as of yet, only a prototype.


Well here is to hoping that the new Tivo dongle sells well and they get enough retail customers to make an atsc 3.0 gateway for it and by extension tivo DVR owners.

Problem is if it doesn't work with my cable DVR i'm not going buy one. I'll just but another gateway that works with something like plex and roll my own DVR, so they have to be careful how its marketed. Which includes understanding your customers needs and the competition...


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. The whole transition is likely to be a long, messy slog. Even though stations will legally be able to stop broadcasting in ATSC 1.0 five years after they start broadcasting in 3.0, I don't expect too many affiliates of the big 4 networks to do that because there will still be a lot of OTA viewers (especially poorer and older ones) who won't yet have spent the money to upgrade to either a new TV or an external box with an ATSC 3.0 tuner by then.
> 
> But what I can see happening in the latter half of the 2020s (maybe even before then) is there only being one or two towers in a given market still broadcasting in ATSC 1.0 carrying SD-only feeds of all the major stations in that market. Even with just a single tower, a good encoder would have no problem getting widescreen SD feeds of ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, The CW, PBS, Telemundo, and one or two more channels on a single ATSC 1.0 tower. Meanwhile, all the other towers in that market will be broadcasting ASTC 3.0 and there will be very little spectrum sharing on those towers between competing stations.


I think we may see ATSC 1.0 go to a pair of 3x 720p towers in some markets. It's a horrifying level of compression, but they could at least say that they are doing "HD" broadcasts for 1.0 and still have plenty of room to put two or three channels in 1080p HDR or whatever they end up deciding to do on 3.0.



Jim1348 said:


> I am currently a TiVo Roamio OTA owner. I would like to be able to swap out the legacy tuners for ATSC 3.0 tuners, but I suspect that it would not be an easy task. Wouldn't it be great if it could be readily upgraded, much like how people upgrade desktop computer video cards!


I am also a TiVo Roamio owner, and we will never be able to upgrade to 3.0. The Roamio cannot decode HEVC. You'd need a Bolt or Edge to decode HEVC, so it's likely that those will get the upgrades. I'd hope for a USB dongle, not necessarily a gateway, as it would be a lot easier to do, just one direct connection, and then move the antenna from the TiVo to the dongle, and it would do 1.0 and 3.0. It probably could work just off of USB power.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

TiVo has sad history of demoing devices that never make it to retail, like the TiVo Max they showed at CES some years ago.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> I think we may see ATSC 1.0 go to a pair of 3x 720p towers in some markets.


Sure. Lots of possible scenarios as 3.0 grows and 1.0 shrinks. A few years down the road, a given market may only have a couple 1.0 towers left, as you envision, before then going to just a single 1.0 stick (with everything in SD), and finally none at all.

But I do think it's an open question whether 3.0 will succeed enough to ever get to that point in the late 2020s or early 2030s. Because I think the more fundamental question of the long-term future of the national network/local affiliate distribution model is uncertain. Imagine what would happen if Disney outbids CBS and Fox for Sunday afternoon NFL and puts most of those games on ESPN. Meanwhile, ESPN is also said to want to steal SEC football from CBS when that contract ends. And then you have Amazon and Google in the mix too.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> But I do think it's an open question whether 3.0 will succeed enough to ever get to that point in the late 2020s or early 2030s. Because I think the more fundamental question of the long-term future of the national network/local affiliate distribution model is uncertain. Imagine what would happen if Disney outbids CBS and Fox for Sunday afternoon NFL and puts most of those games on ESPN. Meanwhile, ESPN is also said to want to steal SEC football from CBS when that contract ends. And then you have Amazon and Google in the mix too.


This is true. We may just end up stuck on the initial phase of 3.0 with a couple of 3.0 stations and mostly 1.0 broadcasts. The average consumer is not at all sophisticated, to say it nicely, people were confused about the digital transition and somehow thought it affected cable TV, 1.0 to 3.0 is going to be even more confusing.

In terms of sports content, it definitely could leave the networks. I think we'll still have the big 4 broadcasting in a decade, but they may be a shell of their former selves with mostly syndicated junk. As it is, we're already 5-10 years into a transition away from broadcast TV.

Sports is in for a rude awakening at the rate they are going. I think a lot of people are just going to lose interest in sports as they become more expensive to watch. Google snapping up rights and rolling them into YouTube TV, or channels carried in YouTube TV, Hulu Live TV, and the like are the best bet for sports to negotiate this transition relatively well.

Or in my dream scenario (which isn't happening BTW), we'll just have multiple PBS transmitters with 4k PBS and various HD PBS subchannels.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> Sure. Lots of possible scenarios as 3.0 grows and 1.0 shrinks. A few years down the road, a given market may only have a couple 1.0 towers left, as you envision, before then going to just a single 1.0 stick (with everything in SD), and finally none at all.
> 
> But I do think it's an open question whether 3.0 will succeed enough to ever get to that point in the late 2020s or early 2030s. Because I think the more fundamental question of the long-term future of the national network/local affiliate distribution model is uncertain. Imagine what would happen if Disney outbids CBS and Fox for Sunday afternoon NFL and puts most of those games on ESPN. Meanwhile, ESPN is also said to want to steal SEC football from CBS when that contract ends. And then you have Amazon and Google in the mix too.


OTA stations in my area have been adding channels the past few years. Two stations have 5 channels now and 3 more have 4 channels. I would think they would want to move to ATSC 3.0 so they can offer more channels for increased revenue. I think it might depend largely on how long it takes to recoup the cost of switching to ATSC 3.0.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> OTA stations in my area have been adding channels the past few years. Two stations have 5 channels now and 3 more have 4 channels. I would think they would want to move to ATSC 3.0 so they can offer more channels for increased revenue. I think it might depend largely on how long it takes to recoup the cost of switching to ATSC 3.0.


 A lot of people watch those sub-channels on their cable systems, there is no must carry rule for sub-channels so already some of the smaller digi-nets are not on cable or OTT. OTA viewers will not monetize these channels alone. OTA is hard to monetize and that is it's challenge to survive in a future going OTT. The ATSC 3.0 process will take longer than people realize.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

tenthplanet said:


> A lot of people watch those sub-channels on their cable systems, there is no must carry rule for sub-channels so already some of the smaller digi-nets are not on cable or OTT. OTA viewers will not monetize these channels alone. OTA is hard to monetize and that is it's challenge to survive in a future going OTT. The ATSC 3.0 process will take longer than people realize.


The big four are retransmission consent, not must carry, so the subchannels would be part of the package to get the main channel by contract.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Broadcast has lost 20% of its viewership in 5 years. Extrapolate that out another 5-10 years and wow, that's a different landscape for broadcast.

TV Long View: Five Years of Network Ratings Declines in Context


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

MikeBear said:


> Yes, but that's not an actual device as of yet, only a prototype.


Kinda like the TiVo Stream 4K?


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

Bigg said:


> Broadcast has lost 20% of its viewership in 5 years. Extrapolate that out another 5-10 years and wow, that's a different landscape for broadcast.
> 
> TV Long View: Five Years of Network Ratings Declines in Context


That's their total viewership, and I'll bet the majority of those losses are coming from people ditching cable. I'd be curious to see how actual OTA viewership is doing, I have a hunch it's holding steady or increasing a tad as some cord cutters move to OTA.

And there's a big elephant in the room the cable companies and networks don't want to acknowledge--while some cord cutters put up antennas or subscribe to new streaming services to replace cable, most of them are simply leaving.


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

OrangeCrush said:


> I'd be curious to see how actual OTA viewership is doing, I have a hunch it's holding steady or increasing a tad as some cord cutters move to OTA.


According to Nielsen, it is booming:

Why Old-Fashioned, Over-the-Air TV Is Booming

Over-the-Air TV is Booming in U.S. Cities


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

OrangeCrush said:


> That's their total viewership, and I'll bet the majority of those losses are coming from people ditching cable. I'd be curious to see how actual OTA viewership is doing, I have a hunch it's holding steady or increasing a tad as some cord cutters move to OTA.


It's certainly an interesting question, but if they have fewer viewers, then they have fewer viewers. Those are not people who subscribe or can receive channels, those are ratings. Many of the losses could be from people who have cable or OTA, but have moved their eyeball hours over to Netflix, YouTube, or others. Clearly, however, given the number of cord cutters, some have come from cord cutting as well.



> And there's a big elephant in the room the cable companies and networks don't want to acknowledge--while some cord cutters put up antennas or subscribe to new streaming services to replace cable, most of them are simply leaving.


Yup. I thought the recapture rate would be 50%, the data show it's about 10%.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Lurker1 said:


> According to Nielsen, it is booming:
> 
> Why Old-Fashioned, Over-the-Air TV Is Booming
> 
> Over-the-Air TV is Booming in U.S. Cities


That market penetration for OTA is fascinating. The transition is happening much more rapidly the farther south and west you go. I think that has to do with a combination of income, type of dwellings people live in, and the number of hills and trees in the way.

Over the entire US, the first article suggests about a 50% recapture rate for OTA from cable. However, I think those numbers are misleading. I'd be interested to see hours per week of content viewed, and I'd bet that it plummets once someone cuts the cord. Most OTA viewers just aren't watching much OTA. I know a number of people who got antennas and barely ever use them. It may be different for spanish-speaking households in markets with a number of OTA spanish-language channels, given the data in the the southwest and correlation with Hispanic population.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

As an OTA guy (I only have had cable once, when I bought my house and it took the cableco a month or 2 to shut the cable ordered by the former owners off), I remember a few years back when people were scoffing at the idea of OTA and it took TiVo so long to almost acknowledge that an OTA audience exists.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Bigg said:


> That market penetration for OTA is fascinating. The transition is happening much more rapidly the farther south and west you go. I think that has to do with a combination of income, type of dwellings people live in, and the number of hills and trees in the way.
> 
> Over the entire US, the first article suggests about a 50% recapture rate for OTA from cable. However, I think those numbers are misleading. I'd be interested to see hours per week of content viewed, and I'd bet that it plummets once someone cuts the cord. Most OTA viewers just aren't watching much OTA. I know a number of people who got antennas and barely ever use them. It may be different for spanish-speaking households in markets with a number of OTA spanish-language channels, given the data in the the southwest and correlation with Hispanic population.


Or as I like to say, if OTA is booming why aren't dvr sales up, where is the surge. Ok people could be watching live?, maybe. OTA is a boomer thing, millennials are not that invested in it. ATSC 3.0 will not save OTA, is 20 years we won't even be having this conversation.


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## JLGomez2667 (Apr 16, 2018)

TIVO is 100% clueless about ATSC 3.0.. Whenever I call and I called again today there is no one in tech support even the supervisors that even know what it means.. I have come to the conclusion that the janitorial staff at Tivo knows more about TV then the Tivo Tech Agents and their supervisors..


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Lurker1 said:


> According to Nielsen, it is booming:
> 
> Why Old-Fashioned, Over-the-Air TV Is Booming
> 
> Over-the-Air TV is Booming in U.S. Cities


No surprise to me. After 20+ years with cable and DBS I ran to my two TiVo Roamio OTAs with lifetime in 2015.

With not paying for TV in 6 months I covered what both Roamios cost and have only spent $30 on a WeaKnees fan since.

Don't stream and don't want to. As long as my Roamios are working I'm saving a fortune and I like that.


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## tim1724 (Jul 3, 2007)

I wouldn't particularly expect support people to know about something that TiVo isn't selling yet. They'll be trained to talk about it if/when TiVo makes a product that uses it. It's not actually a thing yet. (There have been test broadcasts in what, two or three markets?)


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## JLGomez2667 (Apr 16, 2018)

tim1724 said:


> I wouldn't particularly expect support people to know about something that TiVo isn't selling yet. They'll be trained to talk about it if/when TiVo makes a product that uses it. It's not actually a thing yet. (There have been test broadcasts in what, two or three markets?)


U r incorrect ATSC 3.0 is live in markets in the US and also around the world.. try a RESENT google search on this for more info.. And also because this is already out and will be in 60 major cities in the next few months Tivo agents should be at least trained as to what it MEANS at least.. Especially supervisors..


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Bigg said:


> I'd be interested to see hours per week of content viewed, and I'd bet that it plummets once someone cuts the cord. Most OTA viewers just aren't watching much OTA. I know a number of people who got antennas and barely ever use them. It may be different for spanish-speaking households in markets with a number of OTA spanish-language channels, given the data in the the southwest and correlation with Hispanic population.


White anglo-saxon male with a six figure salary here. I have two antennas in my attic and watch OTA television about five hours a day. Some of it via an Echo Show on my counter via an Amazon Recast and some via TiVo devices. I'd watch more, but that six figure salary comes with expectations. I live in New Hampshire. I do not think any people in my town are Spanish first. My market has 47 english language channels. My in-laws have a VERY six figure income in retirement. They watch OTA about ten hours a day -- days they are not on their son's sailboat in Marblehead Massachusetts.

I don't know why you always go to race and income first. It's very condescending and unsubstantiated by data. The fact is NO ONE CAN MEASURE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE CAPTURING AN RF SIGNAL. Never mind their race or income.


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## steelersruleman (Aug 29, 2014)

tenthplanet said:


> Or as I like to say, if OTA is booming why aren't dvr sales up, where is the surge. Ok people could be watching live?, maybe. OTA is a boomer thing, millennials are not that invested in it. ATSC 3.0 will not save OTA, is 20 years we won't even be having this conversation.


FREE entertainment will ALWAYS WIN. TIVO, or someone, will release a DVR for OTA ATSC 3.0 when it becomes profitable to do so.

For now, totally uneccessary. 3.0 won't be available to the masses(and I mean 90% of the USA) for at least 7 years(just a guess of course). There is no federal mandate FORCING networks to make the switch.

And, let's be honest, ATSC 3.0 is not a miraculous change to what you are watching now.

Yes, 4K definitely looks better. Not too mention the sound improvements. But it is not STRIKINGLY BETTER, like going from Analog OTA to Digital HD OTA. Or Black and White to Color TV 55-60 years ago.

There is no WOW factor with this change. So making a 3.0 ATSC TIVO is unimportant right now.

Kind of like making a 5G phone. Pointless right now...


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## JLGomez2667 (Apr 16, 2018)

wizwor said:


> White anglo-saxon male with a six figure salary here. I have two antennas in my attic and watch OTA television about five hours a day. Some of it via an Echo Show on my counter via an Amazon Recast and some via TiVo devices. I'd watch more, but that six figure salary comes with expectations. I live in New Hampshire. I do not think any people in my town are Spanish first. My market has 47 english language channels. My in-laws have a VERY six figure income in retirement. They watch OTA about ten hours a day -- days they are not on their son's sailboat in Marblehead Massachusetts.
> 
> I don't know why you always go to race and income first. It's very condescending and unsubstantiated by data. The fact is NO ONE CAN MEASURE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE CAPTURING AN RF SIGNAL. Never mind their race or income.


AGREE 100% as they say some people just talk out there butts.. Im cuban living in Miami and watch zero spanish TV thats 0.. I have a Tivo bolt connected to a 65 LG Oled in my room and in the living room another LG 65 Oled last years model connected to a tivo mini and another in the house with another tv with another Tivo mini all receive OTA from a big ass antenna over my house.. I have a stand alone 50 inch Toshiba Fire in my moms connected directly to OTA antenna alos.. An my Tivo Bolt is now an OTA version with allin package I had previously one that was both OTA and Cable but that one I did not have the allin package.. I decided to stop paying for cable not because of the price but because there was no need for me to watch cable since 95% of what I watch is local Channels.. And the other 5% I can stream..

So in the end the moral of the story is people will continue to speak out their BUTTS


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## JLGomez2667 (Apr 16, 2018)

steelersruleman said:


> FREE entertainment will ALWAYS WIN. TIVO, or someone, will release a DVR for OTA ATSC 3.0 when it becomes profitable to do so.
> 
> For now, totally uneccessary. 3.0 won't be available to the masses(and I mean 90% of the USA) for at least 7 years(just a guess of course). There is no federal mandate FORCING networks to make the switch.
> 
> ...


U sir r also incorrect ATSC 3.0 is not a hell if u want to do it trend.. At this point just like the change from ATSC 1.0 to 2.0.. Transmitters have 5 years to adapt to ATSC 3.0 which at that time ATSC 2.0 like the DODO Bird will be a thing of the past..


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

tenthplanet said:


> Or as I like to say, if OTA is booming why aren't dvr sales up, where is the surge. Ok people could be watching live?, maybe. OTA is a boomer thing, millennials are not that invested in it. ATSC 3.0 will not save OTA, is 20 years we won't even be having this conversation.


A few years back, I did a lot of work on my 30 year old home -- windows, siding, roof, driveway, boiler. I had a LOT of contractors in and out of my home and an antenna on my roof. A lot of the contractors engaged me in conversation about antenna reception. Most had an antenna.Not one had a DVR. After seeing first hand the wonder of a grid style EPG, trick play, and a library of recorded programming, NOT ONE decided to get a DVR. Some people just watch television.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

JLGomez2667 said:


> U sir r also incorrect ATSC 3.0 is not a hell if u want to do it trend.. At this point just like the change from ATSC 1.0 to 2.0.. Transmitters have 5 years to adapt to ATSC 3.0 which at that time ATSC 2.0 like the DODO Bird will be a thing of the past..


Incorrect. There is no federal mandate to move to ATSC 3.0 (NextGen Tv) from current ATSC 1.0 (Digital TV). It is all voluntarily. Tv stations are being required to keep their DTV signal on air for 5 yrs once they make the voluntary decision to begin NextGen broadcasts.

ATSC 2.0 doesn't exist. It was abandoned before it could be launched as it was already outdated with the planning for ATSC3.0

Tower crews are tied up with current FCC OTA repack work, so don't expect as many 3.0 stations hitting the airwaves as the news is trying to make everyone believe.


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## JLGomez2667 (Apr 16, 2018)

wizwor said:


> A few years back, I did a lot of work on my 30 year old home -- windows, siding, roof, driveway, boiler. I had a LOT of contractors in and out of my home and an antenna on my roof. A lot of the contractors engaged me in conversation about antenna reception. Most had an antenna.Not one had a DVR. After seeing first hand the wonder of a grid style EPG, trick play, and a library of recorded programming, NOT ONE decided to get a DVR. Some people just watch television.


Im sorry maybe im just plain stupid.. But I have no idea ur point or what this means.. please elaborate.. 
"After seeing first hand the wonder of a grid style EPG, trick play, and a library of recorded programming, NOT ONE decided to get a DVR"


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## JLGomez2667 (Apr 16, 2018)

osu1991 said:


> Incorrect. There is no federal mandate to move to ATSC 3.0 (NextGen Tv) from current ATSC 1.0 (Digital TV). It is all voluntarily. Tv stations are being required to keep their DTV signal on air for 5 yrs once they make the voluntary decision to begin NextGen broadcasts.
> 
> ATSC 2.0 doesn't exist. It was abandoned before it could be launched as it was already outdated with the planning for ATSC3.0
> 
> Tower crews are tied up with current FCC OTA repack work, so don't expect as many 3.0 stations hitting the airwaves as the news is trying to make everyone believe.


U go ahead and call me in 5 years and let me know how ur 480P signal is looking..

The good news is _no_, but you may need a new box. The FCC requires TV stations that move to 3.0 OTA to offer the current OTA standard for five years _after_ the move. That means if a station moves to 3.0 OTA TV next year, the day they turn on 3.0 OTA the clock starts for five years to still offer the current standard.

Next Gen OTA TV Is Coming to 61 Markets & Cord Cutters Should Be Excited - Cord Cutters News


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

JLGomez2667 said:


> Im sorry maybe im just plain stupid.. But I have no idea ur point or what this means.. please elaborate..
> "After seeing first hand the wonder of a grid style EPG, trick play, and a library of recorded programming, NOT ONE decided to get a DVR"


Most people I know -- almost all of them -- who choose to buy an antenna, do not choose to buy a DVR. TiVo fanboys (and I have five Roamios and two Minis) cannot imagine others watching what is on, not skipping commercials, or other such things, but most people are just fine with that. My in laws have a DVR+ on their set, but mostly use it for the EPG. My PHD sister has one at her camp and never records programming. TCL makes a 55" 4K Roku TV that costs half what a TiVo costs that includes a terrific PSIP sourced grid guide and Trick Play.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

JLGomez2667 said:


> U go ahead and call me in 5 years and let me know how ur 480P signal is looking..
> 
> The good news is _no_, but you may need a new box. The FCC requires TV stations that move to 3.0 OTA to offer the current OTA standard for five years _after_ the move. That means if a station moves to 3.0 OTA TV next year, the day they turn on 3.0 OTA the clock starts for five years to still offer the current standard.
> 
> Next Gen OTA TV Is Coming to 61 Markets & Cord Cutters Should Be Excited - Cord Cutters News


I am almost as excited about 4k OTA as I was about 3D TV. Most of the broadcast programming is SD. I'm not excited about scaled 480i and I can't see me watching crappy programming even if it looks great (which, btw, 720p does).

That said, the 'box' people buy will be a router that streams to devices attached to HDMI ports. It will likely be subsidized by 'for fee' programming -- a la Tablo TV.


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## JLGomez2667 (Apr 16, 2018)

wizwor said:


> Most people I know -- almost all of them -- who choose to buy an antenna, do not choose to buy a DVR. TiVo fanboys (and I have five Roamios and two Minis) cannot imagine others watching what is on, not skipping commercials, or other such things, but most people are just fine with that. My in laws have a DVR+ on their set, but mostly use it for the EPG. My PHD sister has one at her camp and never records programming. TCL makes a 55" 4K Roku TV that costs half what a TiVo costs that includes a terrific PSIP sourced grid guide and Trick Play.


I honestly could never watch TV without a DVR for 3 reasons.. First the skipping of commercials theres just no way for me to watch a 45 minute show but have to sit trough 15 or so minutes of commercials.. Life is to short for that.. Second.. is pausing.. god bless what do u do when u want a soda or after u drink the soda and have to go to the bathroom do u have to wait for a commercial hell im 50+ and when I need to go I have to go and go often.. Third.. 98% of my shows r broadcast at 8 to 130 am.. Many times as many as 3 at the same time slot.. how do u watch 3 shows at the same time.. I do not think its possible..

I honestly have no idea what I did before DVR's probably had a life..


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## JLGomez2667 (Apr 16, 2018)

wizwor said:


> I am almost as excited about 4k OTA as I was about 3D TV. Most of the broadcast programming is SD. I'm not excited about scaled 480i and I can't see me watching crappy programming even if it looks great (which, btw, 720p does).
> 
> That said, the 'box' people buy will be a router that streams to devices attached to HDMI ports. It will likely be subsidized by 'for fee' programming -- a la Tablo TV.


 Disagree again .. In 5 years we will all put on glasses like these in ur picture but there will be no TV at all.. The glasses will be ur TV


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

I totally get that. Especially #2. Check this out...

Is the Best OTA DVR a TV?



JLGomez2667 said:


> I honestly could never watch TV without a DVR for 3 reasons.. First the skipping of commercials theres just no way for me to watch a 45 minute show but have to sit trough 15 or so minutes of commercials.. Life is to short for that.. Second.. is pausing.. god bless what do u do when u want a soda or after u drink the soda and have to go to the bathroom do u have to wait for a commercial hell im 50+ and when I need to go I have to go and go often.. Third.. 98% of my shows r broadcast at 8 to 130 am.. Many times as many as 3 at the same time slot.. how do u watch 3 shows at the same time.. I do not think its possible..
> 
> I honestly have no idea what I did before DVR's probably had a life..


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

wizwor said:


> I totally get that. Especially #2. Check this out...
> 
> Is the Best OTA DVR a TV?


If it doesn't record it's a bookend, people who work need recorders. And these days some people are working a lot aka "The Side Hustle".


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

JLGomez2667 said:


> U go ahead and call me in 5 years and let me know how ur 480P signal is looking..
> 
> The good news is _no_, but you may need a new box. The FCC requires TV stations that move to 3.0 OTA to offer the current OTA standard for five years _after_ the move. That means if a station moves to 3.0 OTA TV next year, the day they turn on 3.0 OTA the clock starts for five years to still offer the current standard.
> 
> Next Gen OTA TV Is Coming to 61 Markets & Cord Cutters Should Be Excited - Cord Cutters News


I see your reading comprehension is about as good as your spreading of misinformation. Another idiot for the ignore list.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

tenthplanet said:


> If it doesn't record it's a bookend, people who work need recorders. And these days some people are working a lot aka "The Side Hustle".


Thanks for contributing to the discussion :tonguewink:


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

JLGomez2667 said:


> Disagree again .. In 5 years we will all put on glasses like these in ur picture but there will be no TV at all.. The glasses will be ur TV


It's an interesting world you seem to live in, between making insults about 480p signals instead of actual ATSC broadcasting that's being discussed and this weird comment on glasses, is there a roadmap to the neighborhood?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

wizwor said:


> White anglo-saxon male with a six figure salary here.


You're on TCF. You're not normal. Nor am I.



> I don't know why you always go to race and income first. It's very condescending and unsubstantiated by data. The fact is NO ONE CAN MEASURE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE CAPTURING AN RF SIGNAL. Never mind their race or income.


It's not condescending to look at what various groups of people do, and how they consume media. It's quite interesting to look at how media consumption, or anything else for that matter, changes across different language and demographic groups.



wizwor said:


> Most people I know -- almost all of them -- who choose to buy an antenna, do not choose to buy a DVR. TiVo fanboys (and I have five Roamios and two Minis) cannot imagine others watching what is on, not skipping commercials, or other such things, but most people are just fine with that. My in laws have a DVR+ on their set, but mostly use it for the EPG. My PHD sister has one at her camp and never records programming. TCL makes a 55" 4K Roku TV that costs half what a TiVo costs that includes a terrific PSIP sourced grid guide and Trick Play.


Most don't have DVRs, and I'd bet their engagement with OTA TV is very low. Maybe occasional news or sports, but they likely get almost all their content via streaming. This is what isn't showing up in the numbers. Most people who pay top dollar for cable actually watch it, many who pay nothing for OTA don't watch it much and it's still a great value for the $50 they paid for an antenna once.



wizwor said:


> I totally get that. Especially #2. Check this out...
> 
> Is the Best OTA DVR a TV?


All it would take is a software update for those TVs to actually record like a DVR. Plug in a 256GB flash drive and you've got a very basic DVR for night to night timeshifting.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Bigg said:


> You're on TCF. You're not normal. Nor am I.


No kidding! (I have nine televisions and 10 DVRs -- including two whole house DVRs.)



Bigg said:


> It's not condescending to look at what various groups of people do, and how they consume media. It's quite interesting to look at how media consumption, or anything else for that matter, changes across different language and demographic groups.


It's not condescending to state the statistics, but it's a bit condescending to characterize races and income stratas. To say I do not know a single welfare recipient who does not cable is statement of fact. To say that poor people have antennas is not absent specific data.



Bigg said:


> Most don't have DVRs, and I'd bet their engagement with OTA TV is very low. Maybe occasional news or sports, but they likely get almost all their content via streaming. This is what isn't showing up in the numbers. Most people who pay top dollar for cable actually watch it, many who pay nothing for OTA don't watch it much and it's still a great value for the $50 they paid for an antenna once.


Simply not true. I can tell you that, if I had no television equipment in my house right now, I would not buy a DVR. I'd put one of those TCL Roku TVs in each room and be done with it. I I'm watching According to Jim right now. When I get up, NYPD Blue will be on. I leave after Cheyenne. All of this programming is on diginets not offered by Comcast in my market.



Bigg said:


> All it would take is a software update for those TVs to actually record like a DVR. Plug in a 256GB flash drive and you've got a very basic DVR for night to night timeshifting.


It would be awesome if they added that feature. Not sure why they stopped at Trick Play, but still a really awesome television.

You nailed it in the first sentence. No one who posts hers is a typical tv viewer. There are only, probably, a few million TiVo owners. My commute is 50 miles each way. In my travels, I see a lot of antennas. If I see someone outside a home with an antenna, I'll stop and inquire about the antenna. No advice. Just questions. A lot of people have an antenna for a bedroom tv. I was curious about a neighbor who had a yagi pointed to the east. He liked to watch the news when getting ready for work and before bed. He pointed a vhf-high antenna towards WMUR. He had a Comcast box in the living room. Most people have a UHF antenna pointed to Boston. In my travels, I have yet to meet a person who owned an OTA DVR. Everyone I know who owns a TiVo bought it after talking to me.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

wizwor said:


> if I had no television equipment in my house right now, I would not buy a DVR.


This is not true. Waking up this morning on the first day that the New Hampshire primaries are in full focus, I have to admit that I am watching previously recorded programming exclusively. :sob:


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

wizwor said:


> This is not true. Waking up this morning on the first day that the New Hampshire primaries are in full focus, I have to admit that I am watching previously recorded programming exclusively. :sob:


I watch The Weather Channel.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

JoeKustra said:


> I watch The Weather Channel.


I look out the window.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Sparky1234 said:


> I look out the window.





JoeKustra said:


> I watch The Weather Channel.


OK. I CAN live without a DVR. It turns out campaigns do not waste money on the diginets. H&I and LAFF from now until November!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

wizwor said:


> It's not condescending to state the statistics, but it's a bit condescending to characterize races and income stratas. To say I do not know a single welfare recipient who does not cable is statement of fact. To say that poor people have antennas is not absent specific data.


It's not condescending to look at how different ethnic or racial groups use TV, as it's quite relevant to regional differences in TV consumption.



> Simply not true. I can tell you that, if I had no television equipment in my house right now, I would not buy a DVR. I'd put one of those TCL Roku TVs in each room and be done with it. I I'm watching According to Jim right now. When I get up, NYPD Blue will be on. I leave after Cheyenne. All of this programming is on diginets not offered by Comcast in my market.


That's not a typical use case. Most people who have OTA without a DVR aren't using it much, or only use it for some sportsball games.



> You nailed it in the first sentence. No one who posts hers is a typical tv viewer. There are only, probably, a few million TiVo owners. My commute is 50 miles each way. In my travels, I see a lot of antennas. If I see someone outside a home with an antenna, I'll stop and inquire about the antenna. No advice. Just questions. A lot of people have an antenna for a bedroom tv. I was curious about a neighbor who had a yagi pointed to the east. He liked to watch the news when getting ready for work and before bed. He pointed a vhf-high antenna towards WMUR. He had a Comcast box in the living room. Most people have a UHF antenna pointed to Boston. In my travels, I have yet to meet a person who owned an OTA DVR. Everyone I know who owns a TiVo bought it after talking to me.


It's interesting you're finding people with antennas for secondary TVs. They are probably more at-risk for cord cutting since they're already familiar with an antenna. They're also probably not using those secondary TVs very much.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Bigg said:


> It's not condescending to look at how different ethnic or racial groups use TV, as it's quite relevant to regional differences in TV consumption.


Without supporting data, it is. Show us data to support your assertions.



Bigg said:


> That's not a typical use case. Most people who have OTA without a DVR aren't using it much, or only use it for some sportsball games.


Again, show us your data.



Bigg said:


> It's interesting you're finding people with antennas for secondary TVs. They are probably more at-risk for cord cutting since they're already familiar with an antenna. They're also probably not using those secondary TVs very much.


Interesting to me as well. I have to say that I have entertained the idea of having a satellite fed home theater while using OTA at my other sets, but I have an unusually large number of televisions which are mostly not watched. I think these people are very likely to figure out how to get the antenna feed to the sets that have a premium service attached. For me, the loss of the diginets are a deal breaker in any return to paid television. My neighbor used his twice each day. Most of my televisions are powered off 300+ days a year. I just want to have background noise where I work -- which is everywhere. I own eight Echo Shows and bought a Recast so I could watch television everywhere. As you said, we are not typical viewers.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

wizwor said:


> Without supporting data, it is. Show us data to support your assertions.


It's not condescending. Next.



> Again, show us your data.


Nothing will make you happy.



> Interesting to me as well. I have to say that I have entertained the idea of having a satellite fed home theater while using OTA at my other sets, but I have an unusually large number of televisions which are mostly not watched. I think these people are very likely to figure out how to get the antenna feed to the sets that have a premium service attached. For me, the loss of the diginets are a deal breaker in any return to paid television. My neighbor used his twice each day. Most of my televisions are powered off 300+ days a year. I just want to have background noise where I work -- which is everywhere. I own eight Echo Shows and bought a Recast so I could watch television everywhere. As you said, we are not typical viewers.


Yeah, you're pretty much the definition of atypical. TVs powered off 300+ days a year, watching diginets that few care about, etc.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Sure. Lots of possible scenarios as 3.0 grows and 1.0 shrinks. A few years down the road, a given market may only have a couple 1.0 towers left, as you envision, before then going to just a single 1.0 stick (with everything in SD), and finally none at all.
> 
> But I do think it's an open question whether 3.0 will succeed enough to ever get to that point in the late 2020s or early 2030s. Because I think the more fundamental question of the long-term future of the national network/local affiliate distribution model is uncertain. Imagine what would happen if Disney outbids CBS and Fox for Sunday afternoon NFL and puts most of those games on ESPN. Meanwhile, ESPN is also said to want to steal SEC football from CBS when that contract ends. And then you have Amazon and Google in the mix too.


That would only happen if the NFL let's it happen. So far the NFL has only done games on specific days that way. Not the entire conference schedule.

Sent from my Galaxy S10


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wizwor said:


> I am almost as excited about 4k OTA as I was about 3D TV. Most of the broadcast programming is SD. I'm not excited about scaled 480i and I can't see me watching crappy programming even if it looks great (which, btw, 720p does).
> 
> That said, the 'box' people buy will be a router that streams to devices attached to HDMI ports. It will likely be subsidized by 'for fee' programming -- a la Tablo TV.


unfortunately broadcasters plan to target 1080P HDR instead of 2160P with ATSC 3.0

Sent from my Galaxy S10


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

JLGomez2667 said:


> I honestly could never watch TV without a DVR for 3 reasons.. First the skipping of commercials theres just no way for me to watch a 45 minute show but have to sit trough 15 or so minutes of commercials.. Life is to short for that.. Second.. is pausing.. god bless what do u do when u want a soda or after u drink the soda and have to go to the bathroom do u have to wait for a commercial hell im 50+ and when I need to go I have to go and go often.. Third.. 98% of my shows r broadcast at 8 to 130 am.. Many times as many as 3 at the same time slot.. how do u watch 3 shows at the same time.. I do not think its possible..
> 
> I honestly have no idea what I did before DVR's probably had a life..


I used VCRs before DVRs. Between 1984 and 2001 I used multiple VCRs to avoid commercials. In the 90s I used six VCRs to time shift everything. Then one I started using DVRs in 2001, I had no desire to use VCRs any more.

Sent from my Galaxy S10


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

JLGomez2667 said:


> Disagree again .. In 5 years we will all put on glasses like these in ur picture but there will be no TV at all.. The glasses will be ur TV


It better look a heck of a lot better than it looks like now. Because now that method looks like ass with its low resolution

Sent from my Galaxy S10


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wizwor said:


> No kidding! (I have nine televisions and 10 DVRs -- including two whole house DVRs.)
> 
> It's not condescending to state the statistics, but it's a bit condescending to characterize races and income stratas. To say I do not know a single welfare recipient who does not cable is statement of fact. To say that poor people have antennas is not absent specific data.
> 
> ...


The TCL t vs have that capability to insert a flash drive for buffering .

Sent from my Galaxy S10


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

aaronwt said:


> That would only happen if the NFL let's it happen. So far the NFL has only done games on specific days that way. Not the entire conference schedule.


Well, obviously both parties in a contract must sent to the terms. But just because the NFL has insisted on having a lot of their games available on free OTA TV in the past doesn't mean that will always be the case. (And if they want certain games to be free, that can still be done via streaming.)


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## jbragg1989 (May 24, 2020)

2:30
"...we would really just be using the outboard ATSC 3.0 tuner with a processing engine so if we were to productize this we would take the technology that's in the tuner and a little bit of processing power and turn it into basically a network tuner that would then be able to be used with a Bolt or a Mini Vox..."

What do you all think about the possibility of TiVo making a networked tuner similar to the HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0? As ATSC 3.0 begins to launch in earnest in the latter half of this year I think it makes sense for TiVo as it doesn't require them to develop a whole new set top box. There are a large number of Bolts in the wild. I just bought a 1TB Bolt OTA with lifetime service for $250 to supplement my 500GB Roamio OTA. As someone who has followed ATSC 3.0 very closely, I know I would jump at the chance for a TiVo networked ATSC 3.0 tuner add-on device with 2 tuners. I'd pay $200 to be an early adopter. That'd certainly be more attractive that the $250 being asked for the single tuner, non-DVR compatible Zapperbox...

I think one thing that would need to be done at the ATSC 3.0 network tuner is the decode of Dolby AC-4 and conversion into a format that current devices can actually decode. I reached out to Silicon Dust via their Kickstarter to see how their device would handle AC-4 prior to network distribution and didn't hear back.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

jbragg1989 said:


> 2:30
> "...we would really just be using the outboard ATSC 3.0 tuner with a processing engine so if we were to productize this we would take the technology that's in the tuner and a little bit of processing power and turn it into basically a network tuner that would then be able to be used with a Bolt or a Mini Vox..."
> 
> What do you all think about the possibility of TiVo making a networked tuner similar to the HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0? As ATSC 3.0 begins to launch in earnest in the latter half of this year I think it makes sense for TiVo as it doesn't require them to develop a whole new set top box. There are a large number of Bolts in the wild. I just bought a 1TB Bolt OTA with lifetime service for $250 to supplement my 500GB Roamio OTA. As someone who has followed ATSC 3.0 very closely, I know I would jump at the chance for a TiVo networked ATSC 3.0 tuner add-on device with 2 tuners. I'd pay $200 to be an early adopter. That'd certainly be more attractive that the $250 being asked for the single tuner, non-DVR compatible Zapperbox...
> ...


I wouldn't hold my breath. That experiment happened under the previous ownership. For those not following the HD HomeRun ATSC 3.0 thread, see my extended reply there: https://www.tivocommunity.com/co...post-12057076


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## JLGomez2667 (Apr 16, 2018)

jbragg1989 said:


> 2:30
> "...we would really just be using the outboard ATSC 3.0 tuner with a processing engine so if we were to productize this we would take the technology that's in the tuner and a little bit of processing power and turn it into basically a network tuner that would then be able to be used with a Bolt or a Mini Vox..."
> 
> What do you all think about the possibility of TiVo making a networked tuner similar to the HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0? As ATSC 3.0 begins to launch in earnest in the latter half of this year I think it makes sense for TiVo as it doesn't require them to develop a whole new set top box. There are a large number of Bolts in the wild. I just bought a 1TB Bolt OTA with lifetime service for $250 to supplement my 500GB Roamio OTA. As someone who has followed ATSC 3.0 very closely, I know I would jump at the chance for a TiVo networked ATSC 3.0 tuner add-on device with 2 tuners. I'd pay $200 to be an early adopter. That'd certainly be more attractive that the $250 being asked for the single tuner, non-DVR compatible Zapperbox...
> ...


I would wait and c what Amazon next fire recast specs r.


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## RyanL (Apr 28, 2019)

Any developments on this or is it officially dead? What alternatives do we have at this point in time for a atsc 3.0 DVR? I see that they're starting to roll out with stations now in my area. I'm sure that the bolt will chug along fine for the next few years until atsc 2 goes away, but on the other hand I have a couple of TVs now with 4k & HDR and would like to have the best viewing experience possible.


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## jhhyde (Dec 31, 2001)

RyanL said:


> Any developments on this or is it officially dead? What alternatives do we have at this point in time for a atsc 3.0 DVR? I see that they're starting to roll out with stations now in my area. I'm sure that the bolt will chug along fine for the next few years until atsc 2 goes away, but on the other hand I have a couple of TVs now with 4k & HDR and would like to have the best viewing experience possible.


I'm thinking of looking into this when I get back to Seattle this summer. The local stations that are now transmitting with ATSC 3.0 include KOMO-TV (ABC), KIRO-TV (CBS), KCPQ (Fox), KING-TV (NBC), KONG (Ind.), KZJO (MyNet) and KUNS-TV (Univision). The list includes all of Seattle's major broadcasters.

HDHomeRun CONNECT 4K HDHR5-4K - SiliconDust SHOP


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

RyanL said:


> What alternatives do we have at this point in time for a atsc 3.0 DVR?


The HD HomeRun Connect 4K tuner with Channels DVR. There are also HD HomeRun DVR products, not as highly recommended as Channels DVR, but regardless in any configuration you'll need the Connect 4K tuner. I know of no other reasonably priced ATSC 3.0 tuner.


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## RyanL (Apr 28, 2019)

Didn't the HD Homerun have issues though? Believe I researched this a year or so back and a lot of people were talking about AC4 or something.


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## jbragg1989 (May 24, 2020)

I'm optimistic about the long term future of ATSC 3.0, but so far there doesn't seem to be any advantages to upgrading at this point. Those in the Silicon Dust forums have stated that the picture quality of 3.0 is largely comparable to it's 1.0 equivalent at this time and in some cases actually worse. One benefit being that the HEVC (3.0) will take up much less space on your HDD than the same MPEG-2 (1.0) recording. If you market has already launched I'd recommend reading the threads associated with your area to see how things are going.

I'm trying out the Channels DVR setup it an authenticated cable login to watch/record TVE (TV Everywhere) on my Windows desktop right now. This is they type of setup you need to record 3.0 broadcasts at this point (networked Silicon Dust tuner). The commercial skip feature is much quite good on Channels, it cuts directly back to the action rather than viewing a bit of the trims of commercial like TiVo. Not to mention it works on live events like sports. But, I really don't like having to manage my PCs sleep/wake state in order to ensure things are getting recorded and that the server is running to distribute the recordings/live feeds to the client devices (like my Apple TV). I much prefer the simplicity of the TiVos I have (Bolt & Roamio) in their simplicity, dependability, great remote, and no recurring payments (bought my units refurbished with lifetime for $200 and $250)

The only other option for a non-TV ATSC 3.0 tuner is the Zapperbox which costs $329, has a direct HDMI output, but won't be able to record at launch. I think the best you could expect would be a very crude DVR experience if they ever deliver on DVR at all. Their customer support already told me via email that the Zapperbox won't be able to decode the Technicolor SL-HDR1 that Sinclair is planning on using to deliver HDR in a way that is backwards compatible with SDR.

I really thought that the devices would come a bit quicker to market given the fact that South Korea has been up an running with 3.0 for years. I understand that the AC-4 audio of the US vs the MPEG H of South Korea has been more of a hurdle than initially expected.

_"We have been taking orders for the ZapperBox M1 @ $249 each. Unfortunately, the chip vendor that we were working with cannot deliver Dolby AC4 approved chips. This has caused us to completely redesign our hardware with a new chip and lose the hardware pricing that we had locked in with our contract manufacturer. As a result, we must raise the price of the ZapperBox M1 to $329."
_
I think a lot of work needs to be done in the next year by the stations having to upgrade to 3.0, Networks improving the signal quality they send to the stations (hopefully quality 1080p with HDR), and the device manufacturers putting TVs and set top boxes in consumer homes. They have been talking about dongle style tuners for years to make existing TVs compatible but nothing has ever materialized.

Ultimately I think TiVo will release a product that does ATSC 3.0, but they are likely just playing it conservatively by biding their time. They will probably be better off to wait on advancements in chips that can support AC-4 as well as any HDR format that the broadcasters throw their way. Broadcasters see 3.0 as a great revenue opportunity but in order to get consumers moved over they'll have to provide them with some benefits that will make it worth their while.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

RyanL said:


> Didn't the HD Homerun have issues though? Believe I researched this a year or so back and a lot of people were talking about AC4 or something.


There are "teething pains" on all sides of ATSC 3.0, including at the broadcasters, on the tuner side, and in any software client including Channels DVR and HD HomeRun DVR. Sometimes it seems ATSC 3.0 stuff changes on a daily basis somewhere in the country in one market or another.

This is not specifically an HD HomeRun issue, just the price of being on the bleeding edge of things, and if you have patience for that sort of thing then see @jbragg1989's post above.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

jbragg1989 said:


> Ultimately I think TiVo will release a product that does ATSC 3.0, but they are likely just playing it conservatively by biding their time. They will probably be better off to wait on advancements in chips that can support AC-4 as well as any HDR format that the broadcasters throw their way. Broadcasters see 3.0 as a great revenue opportunity but in order to get consumers moved over they'll have to provide them with some benefits that will make it worth their while.


We'll see. As you say, broadcasters will have to make it worth consumers' while to buy 3.0 tuners or new TVs that feature them. And so far, only a few very high-end TVs feature those tuners because there's no mandate from the FCC to include them and it increases the cost of the TVs to have them. So it's the old chicken-and-egg conundrum. I increasingly think that 3.0, if it succeeds, will do so mainly as a way for broadcasters to sell datacasting services, mainly to auto makers. I'm not sure if we'll ever get to the point where enough consumers have upgraded from 1.0 to 3.0 tuners so that broadcasters feel like they can shut down their 1.0 signals.

As for a TiVo 3.0 DVR, there's even greater uncertainty there because TiVo could exit the consumer retail products business at any time. By the time that 3.0 has matured enough, there's a good chance that they won't even be making DVRs any more. I'd say a 3.0 DVR from Tablo is more likely than one from TiVo. But as I say, we'll see...


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> By the time that 3.0 has matured enough, there's a good chance that they won't even be making DVRs any more.


We're already there on the OTA front, right? Last I checked, TiVo's EDGE for Antenna page directs the user to Channel Master for purchase.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

I live in a valley and get zero OTA reception. Will 3.0 change this? I understand that broadband is involved in 3.0. Will it provide stations for me or is that still antenna dependant?? I wish LOcast would do something in southern CT.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

krkaufman said:


> We're already there on the OTA front, right? Last I checked, TiVo's EDGE for Antenna page directs the user to Channel Master for purchase.


That's an odd situation. I mean, TiVo is still operating their own online retail operation to sell the Edge for Cable, the Mini Lux and the Stream 4K. So why outsource sales of the Edge for Antenna to Channel Master? Maybe they figure they get more total sales by having it listed there, with TiVo.com funneling its traffic over to Channel Master, combined with potential buyers shopping on Channel Master's website who weren't already considering a TiVo.

Looks like you can also buy the Edge for Antenna from BestBuy but it doesn't come with lifetime service. Channel Master sells them both with and without lifetime service for about $200 and $350, respectively. Those are the only two places that sell them. Can you later add lifetime service to the box if you buy the $200 version without it?

There was originally a model of the Edge for Antenna that had 4 tuners and a 2 TB hard drive but now the only model sold has 2 tuners and 500 GB. Meanwhile, Tablo has a range of OTA DVRs with either 4 or 2 tuners, either headless network-connected devices or HDMI-equipped boxes that connect directly to the TV.

Between the competition from Tablo, HDHomeRun/Channels/Plex, and Amazon Fire TV Recast, it increasingly feels like TiVo is an afterthought in the OTA DVR market. I'm sure there's a certain kind of consumer for whom the Edge for Antenna would be the best choice but I'm not sure that there's enough of them for TiVo to remain in the game much longer...


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mattyro7878 said:


> I live in a valley and get zero OTA reception. Will 3.0 change this? I understand that broadband is involved in 3.0. Will it provide stations for me or is that still antenna dependant?? I wish LOcast would do something in southern CT.


ATSC 3.0 *might* help your situation but you probably shouldn't get your hopes up. There's nothing, to my knowledge, about 3.0 that makes it any better than 1.0 in terms of the airwaves filling in valleys. (I think VHF signals are better than UHF signals for that, but that's nothing to do with 1.0 vs. 3.0.)

However, 3.0 does allow for single-frequency networks (SFNs), where a broadcaster doesn't just beam out their signal from one tower but from multiple towers scattered around the viewing area, all on the same frequency. That's not possible with 1.0 -- different towers can't use the same frequency in the same viewing area because it would produce massive multipath inteference (which can be a problem with 1.0 signals even just coming from a single tower). But for 3.0, multipath isn't a problem -- getting the same signal from more than one direction (i.e. tower) actually strengthens it.

So, who knows, it's *possible* at some point in the next few years that whichever broadcast market you're in (NYC?) decides to build an SFN, with one of the smaller towers placed in your valley. That would certainly increase your chances of reliable OTA reception. But aside from that, I'm doubtful that you'd have much, if any, better reception from the existing broadcast towers (at the current location, at their current transmitting power) if they switch from 1.0 to 3.0.

Here's a recent article on SFNs in case you're interested:
Broadcast TV's Future May Lie in Single Frequency Networks | TV Tech


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> So why outsource sales of the Edge for Antenna to Channel Master?


To also offload the support for both the box and OTA antenna complexities?



NashGuy said:


> Looks like you can also buy the Edge for Antenna from BestBuy ... Those are the only two places that sell them. ... There was originally a model of the Edge for Antenna that had 4 tuners and a 2 TB hard drive but now the only model sold has 2 tuners and 500 GB.


Last I heard the 4-tuner could still be had through Amazon. (edit: ... but no longer appears to be the case)


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## RyanL (Apr 28, 2019)

NashGuy said:


> Looks like you can also buy the Edge for Antenna from BestBuy but it doesn't come with lifetime service. Channel Master sells them both with and without lifetime service for about $200 and $350, respectively. Those are the only two places that sell them. Can you later add lifetime service to the box if you buy the $200 version without it?
> 
> There was originally a model of the Edge for Antenna that had 4 tuners and a 2 TB hard drive but now the only model sold has 2 tuners and 500 GB. Meanwhile, Tablo has a range of OTA DVRs with either 4 or 2 tuners, either headless network-connected devices or HDMI-equipped boxes that connect directly to the TV.


Yeah, I thought that was kind of strange too that they would ditch the better unit for the 2 tuner one (2 tuners is practically useless IMO). Or maybe they're phasing them all out and only the 2 tuner one that nobody wants is all that's left. Doesn't look good. Not sure if you can add or transfer lifetime to it either. Believe that you could in the past but don't think I've seen any of those "deals" come around in a while now.


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## Salacious Crumb (Jan 1, 2019)

NashGuy said:


> Imagine what would happen if Disney outbids CBS and Fox for Sunday afternoon NFL and puts most of those games on ESPN. Meanwhile, ESPN is also said to want to steal SEC football from CBS when that contract ends.


Well disney didnt outbid cbs/fox - it stayed the same.
& it was already announced last december that espn got the deal for sec it starts 2024.
So thats that.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

krkaufman said:


> To also offload the support for both the box and OTA antenna complexities?


I don't think ChannelMaster has anything to do with after-sale support for the TiVo Edge. If someone is having problems with OTA reception, yes, they could suggest a different antenna. But as for the TiVo box/service itself, surely that's still going to be handled by TiVo.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

RyanL said:


> Yeah, I thought that was kind of strange too that they would ditch the better unit for the 2 tuner one (2 tuners is practically useless IMO). Or maybe they're phasing them all out and only the 2 tuner one that nobody wants is all that's left. Doesn't look good.


This 2-tuner model was originally brought to market as a Canada-only product in late 2019.

TiVo EDGE now available in Canada... but listed as only a 2 tuner?

It was the first OTA DVR that TiVo sold there in several years. They had a dedicated webpage for the Canadian market at www.tivo.com/ca. But that page no longer exists and I don't think they sell it there any more (although I guess Canadians can import one from a US retailer). I think it was a pretty short-lived retail experiment.

Not sure if they began selling the 2-tuner model in the US before or after they ceased sales in Canada. At any rate, I'm pretty sure that when they began selling it in the US, it was done only through Channel Master and Best Buy, and that was around the same time that TiVo ceased selling the original 4-tuner Edge for Antenna on their own website.

My guess is that they simply did two production runs of the Edge for Antenna, the first run being the higher-end model and the second run being the lower-end one. And once the first batch sold out here in the US, they shifted all sales of the second batch to the US because they weren't selling well in Canada. Maybe they struck a wholesale deal with Channel Master to buy most of them just to get them off their hands.

At any rate, my guess is that there will be no more Edge for Antenna units manufactured, and once the existing stock sells through, that will be that.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> At any rate, my guess is that there will be no more Edge for Antenna units manufactured, and once the existing stock sells through, that will be that.


That's unfortunate. OTA is where the retail future is, so it seems like they just keep caring less and less about retail.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> That's unfortunate. OTA is where the retail future is, so it seems like they just keep caring less and less about retail.


Yeah. Well, OTA is where the retail future of *DVRs* lies but that's not really saying much. Everything is shifting to streaming and the cloud, and away from linear channels and local storage, which of course is why TiVo rolled out the Stream 4K last year. (I wonder if it's selling well enough to justify a future for that product line?)

I think we've agreed before that OTA DVRs will probably always remain fairly niche. Had TiVo played their cards right, maybe they could have owned that niche. But instead, they allowed small upstarts to come in with headless solutions made to interface with the popular streaming devices that cord-cutters were already using. So the small OTA DVR market is fractured and TiVo has only a slice of it now. And frankly, for a company the size of Xperi, you have to wonder if the OTA DVR market is even big enough in total to continue bothering with. For tiny private companies like Nuvyyo (Tablo), HDHomeRun, Plex, and Channels, sure, it can be a worthwhile pursuit. But for a publicly traded corporation with a $2.3 billion market cap? Seems like a product line that could be easily cast aside.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. Well, OTA is where the retail future of *DVRs* lies but that's not really saying much. Everything is shifting to streaming and the cloud, and away from linear channels and local storage, which of course is why TiVo rolled out the Stream 4K last year. (I wonder if it's selling well enough to justify a future for that product line?)


True, but the DVR market, or what's left of it will be OTA.



> I think we've agreed before that OTA DVRs will probably always remain fairly niche. Had TiVo played their cards right, maybe they could have owned that niche. But instead, they allowed small upstarts to come in with headless solutions made to interface with the popular streaming devices that cord-cutters were already using.


True, most people who cut the cord just give up the linear OTA content, which seems bizarre to me, but that's what I see out there in the field. Or they have an antenna hooked up to their TV that they use a few times a year for live events.



> And frankly, for a company the size of Xperi, you have to wonder if the OTA DVR market is even big enough in total to continue bothering with. For tiny private companies like Nuvyyo (Tablo), HDHomeRun, Plex, and Channels, sure, it can be a worthwhile pursuit. But for a publicly traded corporation with a $2.3 billion market cap? Seems like a product line that could be easily cast aside.


I still think that's a growing or potentially growing market. Even if only 10% of cord cutters get an OTA DVR, that's still a lot of potential DVRs to be sold that are replacing units currently owned by cable companies from when people had pay TV service.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> I still think that's a growing or potentially growing market. Even if only 10% of cord cutters get an OTA DVR, that's still a lot of potential DVRs to be sold that are replacing units currently owned by cable companies from when people had pay TV service.


True, although to get even 10% of cord-cutters to buy and use an OTA DVR would require a fair amount of advertising and education, which I don't see any of these companies doing. I certainly see there being enough of a market there to keep Tablo, HDHomeRun, Plex and Channels busy serving it. Whether it's big enough to keep Amazon (Fire TV Recast) or Xperi (TiVo) engaged, I don't know.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> True, although to get even 10% of cord-cutters to buy and use an OTA DVR would require a fair amount of advertising and education, which I don't see any of these companies doing. I certainly see there being enough of a market there to keep Tablo, HDHomeRun, Plex and Channels busy serving it. Whether it's big enough to keep Amazon (Fire TV Recast) or Xperi (TiVo) engaged, I don't know.


I don't really know how big that market is. I'm shocked that people have no DVR and no live TV, but that seems to be what most people are doing. Amazon's business model is all about stickiness and lock-in to their ecosystem, so it doesn't have to be profitable, and that's huge. Tablo, HDHomeRun, TiVo, etc, have to make money on the DVR or the service for that DVR. Amazon seemed to want to do just enough with Fire TV Recast for casual users who didn't want to cut the cord because of local channels, but not to directly compete with TiVo or even Tablo.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> Amazon seemed to want to do just enough with Fire TV Recast for casual users who didn't want to cut the cord because of local channels, but not to directly compete with TiVo or even Tablo.


Fire TV Recast seems to me to be a direct competitor to Tablo. Similar product, except the Recast (naturally) only works with Amazon's own Fire TV streamers, while Tablo also works with Roku, Android TV and Apple TV. And, of course, Amazon always includes lifetime service and a hard drive in the price of the Recast, making it the cheapest overall OTA DVR solution.

I doubt Amazon is losing any money on the Recast but you're right that it doesn't actually need to be profitable, as long as they think it's keeping people enmeshed in the Amazon ecosystem. But even to be judged a success in that regard, there would have to be enough people buying and using the product for Amazon to feel justified in continuing to manufacture, sell and support it. Obviously, I don't know what that threshold is. I'm just saying that it wouldn't surprise me if they eventually decide that it's not popular enough to keep selling the product. Or maybe they decide it's enough to keep manufacturing the existing models but not enough to update and improve the product. (It has been 2.5 years since they launched the Recast with no update since.) Who knows.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Fire TV Recast seems to me to be a direct competitor to Tablo. Similar product, except the Recast (naturally) only works with Amazon's own Fire TV streamers, while Tablo also works with Roku, Android TV and Apple TV. And, of course, Amazon always includes lifetime service and a hard drive in the price of the Recast, making it the cheapest overall OTA DVR solution.


Fire TV Recast really can't compete directly with Tablo, but it is a competitor and threat in the sense that it's good enough to lure some customers away, especially as a lot of people may be at a point where they don't want to give up OTA entirely, but the relatively basic functionality offered by Fire TV recast is enough for them.



> I doubt Amazon is losing any money on the Recast but you're right that it doesn't actually need to be profitable, as long as they think it's keeping people enmeshed in the Amazon ecosystem. But even to be judged a success in that regard, there would have to be enough people buying and using the product for Amazon to feel justified in continuing to manufacture, sell and support it. Obviously, I don't know what that threshold is. I'm just saying that it wouldn't surprise me if they eventually decide that it's not popular enough to keep selling the product. Or maybe they decide it's enough to keep manufacturing the existing models but not enough to update and improve the product. (It has been 2.5 years since they launched the Recast with no update since.) Who knows.


It's hard to tell because Amazon's MO is to flood the whole home with various Amazon devices that do this, that, and everything, and they want the FireTV and Alexa ecosystems to tie into TV, phone, and everything else. I doubt that they're losing money on it, but when you look at the R&D and giving it space on their site, there's no way that selling the Recast is purely a selling the Recast play, it's almost entirely an ecosystem play. They may view it more defensive as filling a perceived hole in the FireTV content lineup or more offensive in terms of offering something that people want, getting them to turn their TVs over to the Amazon ecosystem.


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