# Sky HD Now In The EPG



## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

However don't waste your call to the number...
It just says register on the website http://www.sky.com/hd

CHN 311 & 312 BTW

Automan.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

TiVo have the channels listed - but will not be carrying listings at present as you need an HD box and subscription to view them. Neither are available yet.

It would also seem that only Sky receivers with the very latest software will have these channels in the EPG - currently some Sky+ boxes only.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds28621.html

From 30 January
Ch 311 - Sky Movies 9 HD
Ch 312 - Sky Movies 10 HD

From 7 February
Ch 405 - Sky Sports HD
Ch 756 - Sky Box Office HD 1
Ch 593 - National Geographic HD (changing to 543 on 28 February)

From 14 February
Ch 291 - Sky One HD (changing to 197 on 28 February)
Ch 757 - Sky Box Office HD 2
Ch 158 - Artsworld HD (changing to 268 on 28 February)
Ch 557 - Discovery HD (changing to 525 on 28 February)

Sky HD customers will be able to view listings for HD channels only via a special red-button feature on the Sky EPG.

Seems hard work if you have to press the red button for the HD EPG listing...

Automan.


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## cleudo (Apr 7, 2002)

Bit of a joke having a Sky Box office HD when they can't even provide a provide a Dolby 5.1 service on the ones they've already got..


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## Benedict (Jun 8, 2002)

Automan said:


> Sky HD customers will be able to view listings for HD channels only via a special red-button feature on the Sky EPG.
> 
> Seems hard work if you have to press the red button for the HD EPG listing..


HD listings will be visible in the Sky EPG alongside listings for SD channels. Pressing the red button simply filters out all SD channels so that only HD channels are displayed.


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## randap (Jan 21, 2003)

It would be nice for Sky to even hint at how much HD is going to cost.....


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

Just out of curiosity if nothing else. Why do TiVo even bother listing the HD channels when Sky have already stated that their HD recievers won't downconvert the HD pictures to standard resolution (something incidentaly that all European HD boxes I've seen so far to)?

I can understand the logic of Sky putting them in the EPG to tempt standard def viewers into getting HD but it seems daft for TiVo to list the schedules of a channel it doesn't have any hope of being able to record!


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

TiVo doesn't list the schedules - it just provides a place holder.


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## Pugwash (May 23, 2003)

I saw the HD channels appear, and was slightly amused. I've been 'obtaining' some programmes from US broadcasts on HDTV with 5.1 and have to wonder why we're so far behind?


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

aerialplug said:


> Just out of curiosity if nothing else. Why do TiVo even bother listing the HD channels when Sky have already stated that their HD recievers won't downconvert the HD pictures to standard resolution (something incidentaly that all European HD boxes I've seen so far to)?
> 
> I can understand the logic of Sky putting them in the EPG to tempt standard def viewers into getting HD but it seems daft for TiVo to list the schedules of a channel it doesn't have any hope of being able to record!


When did Sky formally announce that their boxes won't downconvert? I haven't read it reported anywhere I would trust yet.

They're going to annoy a lot of DVD Recorder owners if you can't record an HD show and archive it to DVD... (You'll have to record both the HD and SD showings if you want to do this - for say BBC One shows?)


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Which of course you can do with dual tuners.

I was told some time ago by Sky that they would not downconvert HD to SD. But that was a long time ago now, things may have changed.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

aerialplug said:


> Just out of curiosity if nothing else. Why do TiVo even bother listing the HD channels when Sky have already stated that their HD recievers won't downconvert the HD pictures to standard resolution (something incidentaly that all European HD boxes I've seen so far to)?


What would be the point of downconverting anyway? The instant you do that it becomes non-HD and the channel is then pointless.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

DeadKenny said:


> What would be the point of downconverting anyway? The instant you do that it becomes non-HD and the channel is then pointless.


Not true as the picture would look much less compressed due to the higher bandwidth.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Indeed, you may have noticed how the highlights on Match of the Day look much sharper and more vibrant this season, beacuse they are downconverted form HD masters.


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

That presumes Sky HD won't be heavily compressed  

There's a world of difference between downconverting from an HD master and downconverting from a Sky HD source. Also on-the-fly downconverting isn't necessarily as good as the kind of downconversion that goes on when mastering a DVD from an HD source.

Still, personally I wouldn't want to fork out for an HD sub just so I could record in SD quality on my TiVo, and given you're not just looking at downconversion but digital to analogue conversion to get to TiVo as well, it's going to be only a marginal improvement over the regular SD channel, and then you might be upconverting to an HD set also to play it back! (anlogue to digital also)


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## Milhouse (Sep 15, 2001)

But by preventing down conversion Sky effectively begin to lock out non-Sky PVRs (and even standard VCRs) and few will want to use a TiVo/VCR when they can't record from the HD channels so they'll buy Sky+ HD instead.

Surely it will become impossible for this government of ours to allow Sky to get away with this level of protectionism for much longer - Sky should be forced to licence the CAM.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

There is no reason why someone couldn't make a PVR or DVD recorder that has a HDMI input is there? That would be more flexible than a Sky CAM.


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## Craig B (Aug 11, 2001)

GarySargent said:


> There is no reason why someone couldn't make a PVR or DVD recorder that has a HDMI input is there? That would be more flexible than a Sky CAM.


Isn't the point of HDCP that the protection decoding is done in the display? By allowing the protection decoding in a recording device you are doing exactly what they don't want you to do, ie. record the digital stream.

Feel free to tell me I'm missing the point.


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

There is absolutely no reason why a HDMI input recorder could not be made, digital in to digital on disk and digital out.

However you you would need access to HDCP keys and technology and thats where it gets difficult.

I could easily envisage a recorder that would record protected HDMI content but only allow it to be played back to the display connected to the recorder at time of recording.....


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

You can make a HDMI input recorder no problem, so long as it implements HDCP and the recorders output is also HDMI and also impliments HDCP.

So long as the video satys encrypted there is no issue.

HDCP does allow a "no copy" or 2copy once" flag to be set which could limit recording.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

I don't know why they bother. Every other DVD player on the market is region free these days - in the end it is the public who buy these things and they have to work in a sensible way not a silly restrictive one.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

You wait until next year and your PC will refuse to play high def disks unless everything in your system, from graphics card to monitor to disk drive, ahas been certified and made DRM compliant.

Right royal pain its going to be.


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## Richardr (Oct 20, 2000)

Milhouse said:


> But by preventing down conversion Sky effectively begin to lock out non-Sky PVRs (and even standard VCRs) and few will want to use a TiVo/VCR when they can't record from the HD channels so they'll buy Sky+ HD instead.


But isn't Sky+ HD the only box that will get Sky's HD service anyway?

In addition, is there likely to be much content that isn't on a standard channel anyway, so those who want to record the SD programme can do that anyway? I would imagine for a long time, most content will continue to be SD anyway - at least until the likes of ITV and C4 move to HD.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Sky HD Boxes £499.00
Subscription = Exisiting + £10.00 Per Month
First public install Of Sky HD Boxes at the May

Automan.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

Are they still insisting on you must attach the box to a working telephone line? I seem to remember something about that earlier.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

£499 and £10 per month extra sounds a bit excessive if it is correct. Plus if you paid that you'd feel done in 6 months when they half the price.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

I think £499 is now non-subscribers - and £199 for those commiting to 12 months.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

ozsat said:


> I think £499 is now non-subscribers - and £199 for those commiting to 12 months.


That's more reasonable, where do I sign up?!


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

How does the Sky HD stb link up to a 'HD Ready' tv?

I presumed via a HDMI or DVI connection - but most 'HD Ready' tv's say NO next to HDMI connection. (may just be listing errors).

I can see some which have no HDMI or DVI - have them then listed as features elsewhere.

Anybody got any view which is best HDMI or DVI ?


Any views on what 'HD Ready' tv's not to use?


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## paulpenny (Oct 7, 2001)

The first batch of SkyHD boxes will have a component and an HDMI output. But if a program is broadcast with an HDCP flag (copy protection) then the component output will be disabled.

DVI and HDMI are the same as far as video signals are concerned, but HDMI will also carry digital audio. The main thing you need to know is whether the DVI or HDMI input on your screen is HDCP capable.

My understanding of the HD ready logo is that it guarantees that the screen meets these requirements.

SkyHD will broadcast using 720p and 1080i so any HD ready labelled screen should be able to handle this.

As for which screen is best...I guess that will always be subjective and also depends on what you are looking for.

I have the Pioneer 506XDE plasma and am very happy with it. no doubt others will have their own views.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

paulpenny said:


> The first batch of SkyHD boxes will have a component and an HDMI output. But if a program is broadcast with an HDCP flag (copy protection) then the component output will be disabled.


'HDCP enabled' - what is the drawback on getting an HD Ready TV that says 'No!"


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

paulpenny said:


> The first batch of SkyHD boxes will have a component and an HDMI output. But if a program is broadcast with an HDCP flag (copy protection) then the component output will be disabled.


I don't think that's true; I think HDCP and the enabling or otherwise of component are entirely separate. I have seen otheres say whay you're saying, but i can find no evidence for it?



ozsat said:


> 'HDCP enabled' - what is the drawback on getting an HD Ready TV that says 'No!"


Ain't no such animal. HDCP over HDMI or DVI is an absolute requirement of "HD Ready" certification.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

I'll second the Pioneer, I have the smaller 436XDE and it is superb. Works fine with TiVo on V2.5.5 too (no need to move to V2.5.5a).


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## paulpenny (Oct 7, 2001)

sanderton said:


> I don't think that's true; I think HDCP and the enabling or otherwise of component are entirely separate. I have seen otheres say whay you're saying, but i can find no evidence for it?


My understanding is that HDCP is a copy protection technology which works over HDMI/DVI. So if a program is broadcast with HDCP enabled then you will only be able to watch it via HDMI/DVI connections and using HDCP compatible equipment. If you try to watch it over an anologue component connection it will be compromised - How this is done is presumably dealt with in the receiver - either downscaled to SD or just scrambled.

I may be wrong, but I don't think it is possible to implement HDCP over a component connection otherwise it wouldn't be an issue.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Oddly a HDMI 'distribution' box is already available which, due to an oversight, accepts the HDCP signal but does not pass it on. Relatively inexpensive too I understand.


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## The Obo (Feb 22, 2005)

paulpenny said:


> SkyHD will broadcast using 720p and 1080i so any HD ready labelled screen should be able to handle this.


I just got told by a salesman and Richer Sounds that _it now looks like SKY will broadcast in 480p because they "can't afford" to use the higher quality (and higher bandwidth) 720p and 1080i....._

In that case all those of us with "Non-HD Ready" Plasmas (at 852 x 480) will be laughing!..... unless HDCP causes problems.....


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Said salesman is talking out of his arse.

Paul; HDCP protects the digital signal and has nothing whatever to do with the analogue component output. My guess is that HDCP will be enabled for all Sky programming - certainly I cannot imagine that they would be activating an unencrypted digital output of the movie channels - that would make life easy for pirates! Sky have said that component will be enabled on all their channels with no downconverting. 

You may be thinking of AACS, the system for BluRay and HD-DVD discs, which does allow the disk manufacturer to disable or downres any component output on the disk player.


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## paulpenny (Oct 7, 2001)

I'm almost certainly out of my depth here Stuart!

How will Sky copy protect the component output from the 1st generation boxes? or will it not be protected?

I am sure I have read in more than one place that when a program is broadcast with HDCP that it will not be output on the component jacks. Which implies that not all content will be HDCP protected.

You never know, we might get to see it in action some time before Xmas


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

I would imagine it would have the usual Macrovison protection. But because it is analogue, protection is much less of an issue; it's full digital copies which the movie industry cares about. (There's also no sensible way of recording analogue HD right now!)

It may well be that some broadcasters chose to protect with HDCP and simultaneously disable analogue to stop copying that way. Sky have said they won't do that - but I would not read that to mean they won't use HDCP on the digital output.


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## Benedict (Jun 8, 2002)

GarySargent said:


> I'll second the Pioneer, I have the smaller 436XDE and it is superb. Works fine with TiVo on V2.5.5 too (no need to move to V2.5.5a).


I'll third it! - 436XDE here too!


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## paxton (Mar 5, 2002)

> I'll third it! - 436XDE here too!


A slightly older 434HDE here, but still splendid! :up:


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

It seems that Sky may use HDCP for at least their Box Office channels - but some tv's are listed as not having this - so really are they not 'HD Ready' ?

Perhaps Sky's thoughts about not using this is because manufacturers have left it out?

Comments?


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## paulpenny (Oct 7, 2001)

If the TV isn't HDCP compatible then it should NOT have the HD ready label.

This is the detail of what is required to carry the HD ready logo. It is from the EICTA website. http://www.eicta.org/press.asp?level2=42&level1=6&level0=1&year=2005&docid=237

Requirements for the label HD ready

A display device has to cover the following requirements to be awarded the label HD ready:

1. Display, display engine 
 The minimum native resolution of the display (e.g. LCD, PDP) or display 
engine (e.g. DLP) is 720 physical lines in wide aspect ratio.

2. Video Interfaces 
 The display device accepts HD input via: 
o Analogue YPbPr1, and 
o DVI or HDMI

 HD capable inputs accept the following HD video formats: 
o 1280x720 @ 50 and 60Hz progressive (720p), and 
o 1920x1080 @ 50 and 60Hz interlaced (1080i)

 The DVI or HDMI input supports content protection (HDCP)

Hope that helps.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

It seems that some tv's with the 'HD Ready' logo do not work though.

HD-Ready TVs may not all work with BSkyB HD decoders  09/02/06


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

I suspect that the HDMI output from the Sky box will be running in permanent HDCP mode - not on a per-broadcast basis. That way either a display will work or not work, and you won't also have nasty pauses and blank screens on transitions between HDCP and non-HDCP encoded material.

HOWEVER - I suspect there WILL be a flag that enforces analogue component down-scaling or inhibits the component outputs for specific broadcasts and/or channels.

I would be surprised if the HDMI output was compatible with non-HDCP displays some of the time - though am happy to be surprised.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

ozsat said:


> It seems that Sky may use HDCP for at least their Box Office channels - but some tv's are listed as not having this - so really are they not 'HD Ready' ?
> 
> Perhaps Sky's thoughts about not using this is because manufacturers have left it out?
> 
> Comments?


There were reports that no Sky branded channel would inhibit the analogue HD outputs on 1st gen boxes (though other, non-Sky branded, channels would be free to)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if all HDMI output was HDCP encrypted.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

The Obo said:


> I just got told by a salesman and Richer Sounds that _it now looks like SKY will broadcast in 480p because they "can't afford" to use the higher quality (and higher bandwidth) 720p and 1080i....._
> 
> In that case all those of us with "Non-HD Ready" Plasmas (at 852 x 480) will be laughing!..... unless HDCP causes problems.....


Total rubbish. I'd be very careful buying anything from such an ill-informed sales person...

480p is a 60Hz format - and Sky are never likely to broadcast in it. They've just spent millions on Sony HDCam SR VTRs and Sony HDC1500 cameras - that are 1080p, 1080i and 720p compatible at 50Hz.

IF they didn't have bandwith for 720/50p or 1080/50i - which they do and are expected to broadcast in - and they had to use a lower resolution - it would be 576/50p or 576/50i - not a chance of 480/60p or 480/60i (Wrong frame rate...)

HOWEVER - they WILL be using either 720/50p or 1080/50i - you can bet on it...


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

ozsat said:


> It seems that some tv's with the 'HD Ready' logo do not work though.
> 
> HD-Ready TVs may not all work with BSkyB HD decoders  09/02/06


Can't access that page, but I've no reason to think a genuinely HD Ready TV woul dn't work with SkyHD.


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## ivann (Apr 18, 2003)

Here's a link for the converter box that can strip out the HDCP signal

http://www.keene.co.uk/cgi-bin/codesearch.pl?DVIFIX

Note how it says fully HDCP compliant in the specifications.

Any news on whether Tivo are likely to make a return to the UK market with an HD version? That would be nice - I don't want to lose my tivo, mainly because of tivoweb, but I think once SkyHD comes out and if it has full sky+ features the tivo will finally become obsolete - funny how it's taken sky 6 years to catch up!


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

It doesn't strip HDCP; it's output is analogue not digital.


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

This one will though! Quote: "For those unaware  Spatz-Techs DVIMAGIC, while sold and marketed as a DVI amplifier, is attracting attention among the consumer crowd as an HDCP stripper. The device is placed between your playback device (e.g. computer, cable box, HD-DVD player, etc) and your display device. The DVIMAGIC then pretends to be a secure device. Once the DVIMAGIC convinces the playback device to send the signal, it receives the signal, decrypts the signal, and sends a bit-perfect copy of the signal out the other end to your monitor. The result is a pristine restriction-free copy of your content."


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

sanderton said:


> Can't access that page, but I've no reason to think a genuinely HD Ready TV woul dn't work with SkyHD.


Checked with some manufacturers who are all saying 'HD Ready' means HDCP enabled.

I would guess that those tv's which didn't work were either faulty or had false labels - although it did say just a few.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Sky have also updated their HD website today http://www.sky.com/hd

A few goodies and short clips (40megs typical) to download.

Automan.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Odd. This updated site isn't working for me, in either Firefox or IE.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

Been working fine here since they updsted it on Friday. It does use Flash though - do you have that installed?


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## paulpenny (Oct 7, 2001)

well that's an awful lot of effort to tell you nothing!!! :down:

(well, nothing we didn't already know anyway  )


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

There is some extra info in there, tucked away. We'd not seen the back of the box, for example.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

sanderton said:


> Been working fine here since they updsted it on Friday. It does use Flash though - do you have that installed?


Thanks Stuart. It turns out that I'd allowed Flash on *hd.sky.com* (in Outpost Firewall), but was blocking it on *sky.com*; the change of url did me in.

I can now see the page - pretty!



sanderton said:


> There is some extra info ...We'd not seen the back of the box


Why does it have SCARTs? HD content can only be viewed via HDMI, and why would you get this box if you only had an SD TV?

I've also noticed it has an aerial input!


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## Richardr (Oct 20, 2000)

People will still want the option of archiving (at SD quality), e.g. to a DVD recorder.


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> Why does it have SCARTs? HD content can only be viewed via HDMI, and why would you get this box if you only had an SD TV?
> 
> I've also noticed it has an aerial input!


You can view HD over component too.

It has all the same inputs and outputs as Sky+, for 100% compatibility.


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## paulpenny (Oct 7, 2001)

sanderton said:


> There is some extra info in there, tucked away. We'd not seen the back of the box, for example.


tucked away alright!

I note only two lnb inputs. I had read that there would be two HD tuners and two SD tuners so how does that work? wouldn't they need 4 feeds?


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

paulpenny said:


> tucked away alright!
> 
> I note only two lnb inputs. I had read that there would be two HD tuners and two SD tuners so how does that work? wouldn't they need 4 feeds?


Only 2 can be used at any one time.

Similar to TiVo series 3, which has 6 tuners, but only 2 can ever be used at any one time.


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## paulpenny (Oct 7, 2001)

cyril said:


> Only 2 can be used at any one time.
> 
> Similar to TiVo series 3, which has 6 tuners, but only 2 can ever be used at any one time.


and the point of that is?


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

paulpenny said:


> and the point of that is?


Just to give you choice. So you don't have to buy a new unit if you switch from DTT to satellite or cable for TiVo, and for SD and HD for Sky+HD.
Basically so you can record from SD and HD channels in the same box.

A bit of a Swiss Army knife solution.

I guess it might help cut down confusion/marketing/support costs as there is just one model which is capable of being used in lots of ways.

Similar to the fact that your UK TiVo can record from:

a)Analogue tuner
b)DTT freeview
c)Sky satellite
d)NTL or Telewest cable
e)Homechoice VOD

Obviously it would be nicer to have 4 independent tuners in Sky+HD, and six independent ones in a TiVo series 3. 

I am guesing both Sky and TiVo think we only really need 2 independent tuners


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

I think it's more that they get nervous about the hardware doing more tha two writes and a read simultaneously,


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Looks like all their movie channels can now handle Dolby Digital Movies 

I assume they must have replaced all their ageing video playing suite equipment ready for the HD revolution.

Also see AlanJ article at the DigitalSpy http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds29403.html

Automan.


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