# Sons of Anarchy 12/2/2014 (S07E12) "Red Rose"



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I was saddened that Jax killed Unser, moreso than just about anyone he's killed so far. That feels close to an unforgivable betrayal.

Gemma can rot in the garden. That one's been a long time coming.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought there was no way in the universe Jax would be able to kill his mother. Boy, was I wrong.

Aw, man. Jax killed Unser.

I've hated Gemma for years but Katey Sagal was superb in this episode and in the show overall.

Juice should have been dead three or four seasons ago.

I loved the Make It Rain song by Ed Sheeran.

I wonder who tended Gemma's father's garden. 

What's up with Jax's limp?

Anarchy Afterword was interesting.


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## Big Deficit (Jul 8, 2003)

It's not just that he was killed, but how after killing him he was just left there as an afterthought. Very cold indeed! I guess in a way, Jax was doing him a favor considering the cancer and that Gemma was all he had and was going away shortly. It's funny how in TV, shoulder/upper chest wounds can be instantly fatal or have no impact whatsoever? Now there's just Jax to to deal with. Once he's "Mayhem'd", only his two sons remain of the Teller family. I wonder if they're going to make it through the blood bath?


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Great episode. I didn't think Jax would go through with it. I thought the after show was pretty good as well. Katey Sagal looks good at 60. 

Great to see Michael Chiklis.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

How does Jax think he can get away with just outright shooting his mom and Unser? Or does he even care?

He's gotta be the prime suspect in his mom's death. He's got blood all over is shoes and probably left foot and fingerprints all over the place. 

Also there's been dozens and dozens of gang members killed in massacres all over the place. You'd think we'd actually see some investigation into that.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

With impending Mayhem he doesn't care. No reason to hide/bury Gemma or Unser.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Three major cast member murders and umpteen of Lin's men killed. Gemma's lie is the gift that keeps on giving.

I did not expect to see Charisma Carpenter on this show.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Gemma and her dad. That was touching. I love it when a show can make me hate a character and yet empathize with them at the same time. GoT is good at this also.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

OMG I'm such a dolt, I forgot I didn't finish watching this last night and came in and spoiled myself.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

SeanC said:


> OMG I'm such a dolt, I forgot I didn't finish watching this last night and came in and spoiled myself.


Should we have spoiler tagged the ending?


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

Great episode. But I'm not sure I really care anymore what happens in the last episode. Hopefully I'll be surprised.


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## GoPackGo (Dec 29, 2012)

midas said:


> Great episode. But I'm not sure I really care anymore what happens in the last episode. Hopefully I'll be surprised.


This. I felt like the series _could have_ ended with this episode and I would have been moderately satisfied.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Jax assured the other Prez's that his crew would "vote the right way". But it may be the "unwritten bylaw" that Packer and the rest agreed to throw out that may ultimately save Jax from Mayhem.


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## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

VegasVic said:


> Jax assured the other Prez's that his crew would "vote the right way". But it may be the "unwritten bylaw" that Packer and the rest agreed to throw out that may ultimately save Jax from Mayhem.


The "unwritten bylaw" may allow Jax to take himself out. I can think of a likely spot.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

dswallow said:


> I was saddened that Jax killed Unser, moreso than just about anyone he's killed so far. That feels close to an unforgivable betrayal.


Seemed unnecessary since he was capable of disarming Unser without killing him.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Yes he could have. But he knew Unser would never keep quiet.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Glad Cindy Brady Tattletale Unser got whacked by jax. He has been nothing more than a tired banal plot device for quite some time now


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

VegasVic said:


> Jax assured the other Prez's that his crew would "vote the right way". But it may be the "unwritten bylaw" that Packer and the rest agreed to throw out that may ultimately save Jax from Mayhem.


I thought maybe it was about being able to patch over the Grim Bastards

Also, I don't think Mayhem vote absolutely has to end with his death - it could be ex-communication. He would have to obliterate all of his MC ink. He may consider that to be a fate worse than death....


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Juice should have been dead three or four seasons ago.


Mostly agree but he has been great in the past few episodes - his scene with Jax and the one with Unser and Jarry two weeks ago were awesome stuff.

"Gemma knows the truth. Gemma knows every truth behind every lie inside every secret. She's the gatekeeper"


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

So if I understood correctly Jax assured a unanimous vote which would assure his death?


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## desulliv (Aug 22, 2003)

danielhart said:


> I thought maybe it was about being able to patch over the Grim Bastards
> 
> Also, I don't think Mayhem vote absolutely has to end with his death - it could be ex-communication. He would have to obliterate all of his MC ink. He may consider that to be a fate worse than death....


Give him a desk job that he'll quit and then drive truck...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

VegasVic said:


> Great to see Michael Chiklis.


I've got to admit, I didn't even pay attention to the character the first time I watched it. After reading this I went back and watched again. I have no idea why it didn't register the first time since it's really obvious it's him.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Kamakzie said:


> So if I understood correctly Jax assured a unanimous vote which would assure his death?


No, in exchange for whatever it is that he's asking for from the other Presidents (we don't know yet), he will get his charter to unanimously agree to the deal they made (which, again, we don't know what it is yet).

We can assume that his death is part of the deal, but we don't know that yet.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

desulliv said:


> Give him a desk job that he'll quit and then drive truck...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. He'll go work as a logger up north. With Dexter.


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Kamakzie said:


> So if I understood correctly Jax assured a unanimous vote which would assure his death?


That seems to be the idea except if it was that simple there would be no point to keeping it a mystery.


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## EscapeGoat (Oct 12, 2008)

danielhart said:


> I thought maybe it was about being able to patch over the Grim Bastards
> 
> Also, I don't think Mayhem vote absolutely has to end with his death - it could be ex-communication. He would have to obliterate all of his MC ink. He may consider that to be a fate worse than death....


When Clay was thrown out of the club and had his tattoos blacked out it was not a mayhem vote. The mayhem vote came later, before he was killed. Mayhem = death.

In most shows with an anti-hero as the lead character I'm pulling for the bad guy. I liked Tony Soprano until the lights went out. I was on Walter White's side until the very end. But Jax Teller has really turned into an irredeemable scumbag, and I'll be happy to see him die.


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## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

I just finished watching. My thoughts:

The scene with Gemma and her dad was just heartbreaking. That was when I knew she would die. But even when Jax actually shot her, I was shocked. Her final speech made me cry. There was a lot of bad in Gemma, but there was good too. She tried to be a good mother and I do believe she loved her son, in spite of all her mistakes. One of the best things about the characters on this show is all of the shades of gray they portray - like real people.

The Unser thing was really the only way that could have gone. No way would he have kept quiet.

Juice and the pie. OMG. The pie. And I don't even LIKE pie.

The whole thing is ending in a very Shakespearean style (as it started), so I don't believe Jax CAN survive. I think he is fully prepared for Mayhem. I wonder if the unwritten bylaw has something to do with his sons and the club. He did ask Gemma about JT's manuscript. It would be the ultimate in hubris if he believed the next generation of Tellers could "fix" the club somehow. 

I don't want it to end - but I can't wait to see how it does!


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

The first think that came to mind for me for the bylaw was something about black members and patching in the grim bastards


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

VegasVic said:


> Great to see Michael Chiklis.


:up:


cheesesteak said:


> I did not expect to see Charisma Carpenter on this show.


:up:

There have been some terrific guest stars on this show. But the regular cast has been just awesome. None of the cast has won an emmy for this show, nor even been nominated have they? Katey won a Golden Globe but that's it for major awards. Unbelievable.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

VegasVic said:


> Great to see Michael Chiklis.


The circle of life is complete, all the main cast of The Shield have had a role in SOA.



cheesesteak said:


> I did not expect to see Charisma Carpenter on this show.


I only did because she's tweeted how much of a fan she is, then let it slip a couple months ago that she got cast for a bit part.
Of course it would be the last half of the season, but wasn't sure what episode it would be.

Of course, would much rather had seen here cast as a Diosa or Red Woody employee , not a earthtone wearing no makeup receptionist.

phox


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Man that felt like it was seven seasons in the making, lol. I'm usually not a fan of shows dragging stories out but Jax found out in the previous episode and I think it would have been more impactful to see him _really _struggle with what to do. It seemed kind of rushed with all the other stuff going on in both episodes, and we're talking about someone killing their own _mother_. I was surprised that it went down in this episode.

The only other thing I wish they had done was have Gemma reiterate all the s*** she has done to Jax over the years - helping to kill his father, baiting him into killing and replacing his step father, poisoning his relationships with Wendy and Tara - the list goes on... I would have some quick acknowledgement of all that stuff just to remind him that it's not just the latest thing, it's years of manipulation.

I think Jax has been written so well over the show that while he's done a lot of messed up stuff, there are always circumstances of confusion, manipulation, false sense of duty, and often times necessity... All the stuff he's done this season which has resulted in countless deaths can be attributed to "the lie" and so I was back on his side last week when he found out the truth - the sense of betrayal would have to be crushing, to know you did all this evil *** because your mom lied to you. But the whole Unser thing turned me off. It's not that he killed him, it's that he did it and then had a conversation next to his body like it never happened. This is someone he's known his entire life who has done a LOT to protect the family and club, and neither of them even talked about it, lol.

I'm definitely curious to see what happens next week but I think there's still stuff close up. I think since they did this "event" in this episode that we can expect a lot of closure next week - full closure and not BS Dexter closure. I think Jax has more of a conscience than most people on the show and whatever he's spinning in motion will involve penance for him. As for everyone else, they all pretty much deserve to die.

Nero and Wendy are the only two people on the entire show who should be alive at the end.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I had completely forgotten that Hal Holbrook played Gemma's father.


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

EscapeGoat said:


> When Clay was thrown out of the club and had his tattoos blacked out it was not a mayhem vote. The mayhem vote came later, before he was killed. Mayhem = death.
> 
> In most shows with an anti-hero as the lead character I'm pulling for the bad guy. I liked Tony Soprano until the lights went out. I was on Walter White's side until the very end. But Jax Teller has really turned into an irredeemable scumbag, and I'll be happy to see him die.


This is the problem I have. It's been a few seasons since I said, "Jesus, it's getting really hard to pull for Jax anymore." I think it was when he drugged Wendy that he was irredeemable.

I kept watching the scene in the garden wondering when Nero was going to show up. I still don't quite understand why he didn't. One minute he said he was going up there to save Jax, then he never shows up and just goes back to the house.


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## Mikeyis4dcats (Oct 2, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Man that felt like it was seven seasons in the making, lol. I'm usually not a fan of shows dragging stories out but Jax found out in the previous episode and I think it would have been more impactful to see him _really _struggle with what to do. It seemed kind of rushed with all the other stuff going on in both episodes, and we're talking about someone killing their own _mother_. I was surprised that it went down in this episode.
> 
> The only other thing I wish they had done was have Gemma reiterate all the s*** she has done to Jax over the years - helping to kill his father, baiting him into killing and replacing his step father, poisoning his relationships with Wendy and Tara - the list goes on... I would have some quick acknowledgement of all that stuff just to remind him that it's not just the latest thing, it's years of manipulation.
> 
> ...


you want the kids dead too?? I mean, Abel sucks as an actor but....


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Kamakzie said:


> So if I understood correctly Jax assured a unanimous vote which would assure his death?





nyny523 said:


> I think he is fully prepared for Mayhem. I wonder if the unwritten bylaw has something to do with his sons and the club.


This. I think Jax is accepting (even embracing) his death. He broke a rule that means death. Juice accepted his fate. Gemma accepted her fate. Jax is accepting his. When he told the MC everything would be OK, he meant for the club. He promised to get them to go along with the death vote.

And I do think the "unwritten bylaw" they were talking about striking was about his kids. He doesn't want them to be "legacies". He's getting them out.

He's going to find time to kill Barofsky. The only thing I can't figure is how the Irish Kings issue will wrap up.


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## zuko3984 (May 4, 2002)

Sparty99 said:


> I kept watching the scene in the garden wondering when Nero was going to show up. I still don't quite understand why he didn't. One minute he said he was going up there to save Jax, then he never shows up and just goes back to the house.


Nero was never going to go. He sent Unser because he knew what would happen if he went and tried to stop Jax. He said if he went it would end bad. Either him or Jax or both of them would end up dead. I really think Nero thought there was no way Jax would kill Unser so it was safe to send Unser to stop Jax.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

danielhart said:


> Glad Cindy Brady Tattletale Unser got whacked by jax. He has been nothing more than a tired banal plot device for quite some time now


Sup, man.


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

zuko3984 said:


> Nero was never going to go. He sent Unser because he knew what would happen if he went and tried to stop Jax. He said if he went it would end bad. Either him or Jax or both of them would end up dead. I really think Nero thought there was no way Jax would kill Unser so it was safe to send Unser to stop Jax.


OK, thanks, I totally missed that.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

phox_mulder said:


> The circle of life is complete, all the main cast of The Shield have had a role in SOA.


What about the other member of the Strike Team (the one with the beard)? I can't even remember his name but he became more prominent in the later seasons. Was he ever on SOA?


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

zordude said:


> The first think that came to mind for me for the bylaw was something about black members and patching in the grim bastards


That was what I was thinking too.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

VegasVic said:


> That was what I was thinking too.


Me three.

My guess is that Jax wanted JT's manuscript to pass along to Abel along with whatever addendum he adds before his death. I can't see Jax wanting his sons in SAMCRO. The club destroyed his family and closest friends. I'm guessing Wendy and the kids move to Nero's farm and never visit Charming again.


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## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

zuko3984 said:


> Nero was never going to go. He sent Unser because he knew what would happen if he went and tried to stop Jax. He said if he went it would end bad. Either him or Jax or both of them would end up dead. I really think Nero thought there was no way Jax would kill Unser so it was safe to send Unser to stop Jax.


Nero figured either he would kill Jax or Jax would kill both of them. not a good spot for him either way.. especially since he was done with Gemma.


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## leeherman (Nov 5, 2007)

mrdazzo7 said:


> The only other thing I wish they had done was have Gemma reiterate all the s*** she has done to Jax over the years - helping to kill his father, baiting him into killing and replacing his step father, poisoning his relationships with Wendy and Tara - the list goes on... I would have some quick acknowledgement of all that stuff just to remind him that it's not just the latest thing, it's years of manipulation.


Just like Vic Mackey in "The Shield" listing all of his dirty deeds!

LH


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## leeherman (Nov 5, 2007)

goblue97 said:


> What about the other member of the Strike Team (the one with the beard)? I can't even remember his name but he became more prominent in the later seasons. Was he ever on SOA?


David Rees Snells I think was his name, Ronnie Gardocki in "The Shield".

Snells appeared two or three seasons ago, if I recall, as part of the FBI investigation into the group headed up by that oddball agent.

LH


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Sutter had said he could never have Goggins or Chiklis on SOA because they are too closely identified with The Shield Then he created Venus and the trucker. It will be interesting to see who shows up in the Bastard Executioner (Katey Sagal is in it for sure).


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

I'm a few eps behind, so I skipped all of this thread. Bobby was the best of all of them. I got a little emotional.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

VegasVic said:


> Sutter had said he could never have Goggins or Chiklis on SOA because they are too closely identified with The Shield


That's just foolish.


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## GoPackGo (Dec 29, 2012)

I think the unwritten bylaw is that the club takes care of the kids of fallen members. Jax doesn't want his kids to follow down his path.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

scandia101 said:


> That's just foolish.


Not really...it can really yank you out of a scene when somebody who's extremely well-known for another role shows up out of the blue.

They pulled it off with Goggins because boobs, and they pulled it off with Chiklis because, I think, enough time has passed (both in our memory and on his face) that he's not automatically Vic Mackey any more. But Sons went on the air the same year Shield ended, and it could have been a pretty serious distraction if they'd tried it early on, when Sons was still trying to build its own identity and Shield was still fresh in the public consciousness.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not really...it can really yank you out of a scene when somebody who's extremely well-known for another role shows up out of the blue.


foolish


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

scandia101 said:


> foolish


What an insightful argument! Why, you almost have me convinced...

Or, maybe not.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I didn't even notice the trucker was Chiklis until the credits.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

leeherman said:


> David Rees Snells I think was his name, Ronnie Gardocki in "The Shield".
> 
> Snells appeared two or three seasons ago, if I recall, as part of the FBI investigation into the group headed up by that oddball agent.
> 
> LH


Ah, I missed that. He must have blended into the background like he did most of the time on the Shield.


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## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I didn't even notice the trucker was Chiklis until the credits.


When he showed up in the first scene (telling her to move the car), I was like "jeez, that guy looks like Michael Chilis...nah..."

Then when he showed up again in the second scene, I was like "It IS Michael Chilis!!!"

And then when Charisma Carpenter showed up, I was thinking a lot of actors really wanted to be on this show!!!


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

It is interesting (disappointing?) that a fair amount of attractive actresses - Charisma Carpenter, Lea Michelle, Courtney Love if that's your sort of thing - played roles this year and none of them played Diosa (sp?) girls.


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## jacobp (Oct 8, 2001)

Two observations.

First, the homeless lady with the baby stroller showed up again. How many times have we seen her over the years? Will there be any explanation or resolution?

Second, when Wendy and Nero are having their little discussion about going to the farm they exchange some friendly banter about Wendy seeing Nero in front of a Home Depot and Nero replying "don't make me put you in the trunk of my car" or something like that. Wendy then replied "I've been there before," or something like that. Was that a nod to her days on the Sopranos when she was transported to what was supposed to be her murder in the trunk of a car (or am i misremembering that).

Anyway, great episode.


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

jacobp said:


> Two observations.
> 
> First, the homeless lady with the baby stroller showed up again. How many times have we seen her over the years? Will there be any explanation or resolution?
> 
> ...


She wasn't transported to her murder in Sporanos in her trunk. She was driven in the front seat.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What an insightful argument! Why, you almost have me convinced...
> 
> Or, maybe not.


The point is that I have my opinion and you have yours. I have no need to explain mine. Why you'd think my statement was an argument to convince you is, well, it's foolish.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Or perhaps you have no ability to explain yours, because it's foolish?


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## jacobp (Oct 8, 2001)

scandia101 said:


> That's just foolish.


There actually is something to it. Remember that they cut George Reeves completely out of Gone with the Wind because the test audience that viewed the film associated him with being Superman. The producers saw this and cut his role out completely.


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## jacobp (Oct 8, 2001)

Sparty99 said:


> She wasn't transported to her murder in Sporanos in her trunk. She was driven in the front seat.


OK. Fair enough. But what about the homeless lady and the baby stroller?


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

jacobp said:


> OK. Fair enough. But what about the homeless lady and the baby stroller?


http://www.technologytell.com/enter...anarchy-finally-explains-that-homeless-woman/


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

jacobp said:


> There actually is something to it. Remember that they cut George Reeves completely out of Gone with the Wind because the test audience that viewed the film associated him with being Superman. The producers saw this and cut his role out completely.


Not true. Reeves didn't start playing Superman until 1951, 12 years after he was in GWTW.


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## jacobp (Oct 8, 2001)

Sparty99 said:


> Not true. Reeves didn't start playing Superman until 1951, 12 years after he was in GWTW.


That's what i get for relying on the movie Hollywoodland for facts.


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## jacobp (Oct 8, 2001)

Sparty99 said:


> http://www.technologytell.com/enter...anarchy-finally-explains-that-homeless-woman/


Thanks.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

The show got a bit long and I faded off. Can someone please explain the "bylaw" thing?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> The show got a bit long and I faded off. Can someone please explain the "bylaw" thing?


No.

That is, they haven't explained it yet. Jax is setting up some kind of exemption to some unnamed unspoken rule they have. That's all we know so far, as far as I can tell.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

uncdrew said:


> The show got a bit long and I faded off. Can someone please explain the "bylaw" thing?


There was a mention of an "unwritten bylaw" when Juice was confessing to Chibs about the Sheriff finding out his father was black getting him to rat on the club.

The bylaw being about allowing black members.

I'm thinking it is going to have something to do with patching in the Grim Bastards to sway the mayhem vote.

But, I've been wrong before.

phox


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Supposedly there is a Sons of Anarchy book that was supposed to come out next week, after the finale had aired, that contains spoilers about the finale.

I think it was Amazon that shipped it a week early, pissing off a lot of people.

If you care about being spoilered, avoid internet posts regarding the book.

https://deadline.com/2014/12/sons-o...spoilers-book-kurt-sutter-apology-1201311122/
(link doesn't contain the spoilers, just the backlash, and as to be expected, some profanity from Kurt Sutter)

phox


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## markymark_ctown (Oct 11, 2004)

Word is the finale is going to be a 90 minute musical interlude...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Doesn't surprise me. It always seemed to me that Kurt Sutter's primary motivation is a deep, abiding jealousy of Joss Whedon.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

EscapeGoat said:


> Jax Teller has really turned into an irredeemable scumbag, and I'll be happy to see him die.


Me too.

Someone else mentioned it but - Jax having trouble getting up off the couch. That wasn't for nothing. I dunno what it means but it means something.


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## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

Cainebj said:


> Me too.
> 
> Someone else mentioned it but - Jax having trouble getting up off the couch. That wasn't for nothing. I dunno what it means but it means something.


Yeah - something with his foot, or his leg. He was limping all episode.

Definitely means something...


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

nyny523 said:


> Yeah - something with his foot, or his leg. He was limping all episode.
> 
> Definitely means something...


Funny, it could totally mean something on this show, but it could also be that Charlie H hurt his foot and had to limp, simple as that. They kind of acknowledged it at the beginning of the ep. But with this show, no one knows, lol.

That whole situation with Sutter's book is a mess! I haven't read any articles about it (spoilerphobe) but it freaks me out because once something is "out there" it finds it's way around. I go on a lot of TV sites plus am on Facebook so I'm on a freeze now because you never know where someone's gonna just put it all out there.

It's already bad enough that the finale airs my first day on vacation and I probably won't be seeing it until I get back that weekend. You try avoiding spoilers for that long!!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Jax has zoomed past irredeemable but I can't find myself rooting for his death unlike the way I wanted Clay, Tara, Gemma and Juice to kick the bucket.


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## Big Deficit (Jul 8, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Doesn't surprise me. It always seemed to me that Kurt Sutter's primary motivation is a deep, abiding jealousy of Joss Whedon.


Steven Bochco?


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## GoPackGo (Dec 29, 2012)

It's funny to me how I rooted for Tony Soprano and Walter White all through their shows, but Jax Teller, and Vic Mackey before him, I want to die.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

cheesesteak said:


> Jax has zoomed past irredeemable but I can't find myself rooting for his death unlike the way I wanted Clay, Tara, Gemma and Juice to kick the bucket.


I was rooting for the others you mention to be killed, too. I was on the fence about Jax until he killed Unser. I'm not a huge Unser fan, but Jax had no reason to kill him IMO. That pushed me over the edge to rooting for Jax's death.

I hope Wendy and Nero take the kids to the farm and get them away from the club forever.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

hummingbird_206 said:


> I was rooting for the others you mention to be killed, too. I was on the fence about Jax until he killed Unser. I'm not a huge Unser fan, but Jax had no reason to kill him IMO. That pushed me over the edge to rooting for Jax's death.
> 
> I hope Wendy and Nero take the kids to the farm and get them away from the club forever.


All of this.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

jacobp said:


> There actually is something to it. Remember that they cut George Reeves completely out of Gone with the Wind because the test audience that viewed the film associated him with being Superman. The producers saw this and cut his role out completely.


???
Reeves didn't even become Superman until 1951, a dozen years after GWTW


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or perhaps you have no ability to explain yours, because it's foolish?


I don't understand why you are so hung up on my opinion? Does it mean that much to you?

Do you really think Walt Goggins showing up on screen as an average guy in jeans and a t-shirt would have been more "take you out of the scene jarring" than Walt Goggins showing up with huge breasts and dressed as a dominatrix?
Seriously?


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## Linnemir (Apr 7, 2009)

It's not so much the 'what' as the 'how' for me now. I used to think that I wanted Jax to live with ~nothing~ left to live for - tossed out of his club, Gemma and Tara dead, and the kids taken from him, but no, with Unser's death, he's become a waste of breathable air.


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

Crap. I thought this was about last week's episode. I didn't know Unser bit the dust.


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Jax has zoomed past irredeemable but I can't find myself rooting for his death unlike the way I wanted Clay, Tara, Gemma and Juice to kick the bucket.





hummingbird_206 said:


> I was rooting for the others you mention to be killed, too. I was on the fence about Jax until he killed Unser. I'm not a huge Unser fan, but Jax had no reason to kill him IMO. That pushed me over the edge to rooting for Jax's death.
> 
> I hope Wendy and Nero take the kids to the farm and get them away from the club forever.


Why the hatred for Tara?


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

I knew Unser was going to die as soon as he said "It's all I got left" or words to that effect.

I'm sure there's something in the fact that we saw Jax putting on his nice white sneakers early in the episode and then they focused on the blood-stained right shoe at the end. Maybe he won't die out in the open, but as an inmate after being finally arrested for murder? ...or spend the rest of his life being the new Otto?


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Sparty99 said:


> Why the hatred for Tara?


Good point. My comment should be "all of this except for Tara". I've wanted to slap her in several episodes but I didn't want her to die. I wanted her to take BOTH kids out of the state or even the country. Canada?


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Beryl said:


> Good point. My comment should be "all of this except for Tara". I've wanted to slap her in several episodes but I didn't want her to die. I wanted her to take BOTH kids out of the state or even the country. Canada?


Not me. I've always hated the character and don't really care for the actress. I was happy to see Tara dead.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

hummingbird_206 said:


> Not me. I've always hated the character and don't really care for the actress. I was happy to see Tara dead.


:up:


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

hummingbird_206 said:


> Not me. I've always hated the character and don't really care for the actress. I was happy to see Tara dead.





VegasVic said:


> :up:


But again, why? Hate the character, fine. But what did she do to deserve to die? She tried to get her family out of the life, and by club standards that may mean she needs to die, but it's not like the club was the most sympathetic group.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Being a doctor, Tara was supposed to protect life. She knowingly chose to immerse herself in a gang culture that killed people at will. She knew Jax was a vicious killer and chose to ignore it. Plus, I saw way more of Jax's naked butt than I saw of hers. She has to pay for that.


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## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Being a doctor, Tara was supposed to protect life. She knowingly chose to immerse herself in a gang culture that killed people at will. She knew Jax was a vicious killer and chose to ignore it. *Plus, I saw way more of Jax's naked butt than I saw of hers.* She has to pay for that.


This was a BIG plus, from my POV.

Just sayin'...


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Being a doctor, Tara was supposed to protect life. She knowingly chose to immerse herself in a gang culture that killed people at will. She knew Jax was a vicious killer and chose to ignore it. Plus, I saw way more of Jax's naked butt than I saw of hers. She has to pay for that.


Choosing to ignore the actions of the man she loves doesn't necessarily mean she deserves to die, doctor or not. I will grant you the piece about Jax's ass though.

On a somewhat related note, I'm floored by the split between what can be shown when it comes to sex and violence in the show. The show has shown some truly vile violent acts - Tig's daughter being burned alive, drowning a guy in a vat of piss, showing a guy's eye literally hanging out of his head - and yet when it comes to sex it still toes the sponsor line. This struck me in the episode where the club massacred Marks's crew. Not long after Jax gouged Cartwright's eye out there was a sex scene between Chibs and Jarry where they were very careful not to show any of Jarry's naughty bits. It just struck me as an amazing contradiction. I know this is how it goes in this country, but it seems we should be more consistent.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Sparty99 said:


> On a somewhat related note, I'm floored by the split between what can be shown when it comes to sex and violence in the show. The show has shown some truly vile violent acts - Tig's daughter being burned alive, drowning a guy in a vat of piss, showing a guy's eye literally hanging out of his head - and yet when it comes to sex it still toes the sponsor line. This struck me in the episode where the club massacred Marks's crew. Not long after Jax gouged Cartwright's eye out there was a sex scene between Chibs and Jarry where they were very careful not to show any of Jarry's naughty bits. It just struck me as an amazing contradiction. I know this is how it goes in this country, but it seems we should be more consistent.


Possibly more a case of the actress being unwilling to show her "naughty bits."


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

dswallow said:


> Possibly more a case of the actress being unwilling to show her "naughty bits."


No chance. Considering all the sex and nudity on the show, not one of them has chosen to show her naughty bits. Not buying it.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Sparty99 said:


> No chance. Considering all the sex and nudity on the show, not one of them has chosen to show her naughty bits. Not buying it.


I didn't think it was allowed to show naughty bits on basic cable. Or, was that your point?


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> I didn't think it was allowed to show naughty bits on basic cable. Or, was that your point?


That's exactly my point. For the record, I believe they can show the naughty bits on basic cable (the FCC has no authority because it's pay TV), but they choose not to because of sponsor pressure. My issue is that considering the vile stuff we've seen on the show (i.e., a guy's eyeball literally hanging out of its socket), it's ridiculous that we continue to be so puritanical when it comes to sex.

But perhaps that's a discussion for another thread.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Sparty99 said:


> But again, why? Hate the character, fine. But what did she do to deserve to die? She tried to get her family out of the life, and by club standards that may mean she needs to die, but it's not like the club was the most sympathetic group.


Wanting her dead and saying that she deserved to die are two different things and nobody said she deserved to die.

What's wrong with simply wanting an actor/character you dislike to die? 
Why do you think she has to deserve to die for the character to get killed? It's a show where a lot of people die and not all of them deserve it.


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## JLucPicard (Jul 8, 2004)

Sparty99 said:


> That's exactly my point. For the record, I believe they can show the naughty bits on basic cable (the FCC has no authority because it's pay TV), but they choose not to because of sponsor pressure. My issue is that considering the vile stuff we've seen on the show (i.e., a guy's eyeball literally hanging out of its socket), it's ridiculous that we continue to be so puritanical when it comes to sex.
> 
> But perhaps that's a discussion for another thread.


I'm going to spolierize this because this discussion took place on Anarchy AfterWord. It gives nothing away about the show, but it addresses your discussion point.



Spoiler



The director of this episode was asked about the hardest scene to film. After pondering it, he explained that it was the love scene between Jax and Wendy because they were constantly walking the line between showing what they wanted to to make the scene work, and what was acceptable to Drea in terms of what was shown.



I understand your point, but I don't believe it is always something done just to appease sponsors.


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

JLucPicard said:


> I'm going to spolierize this because this discussion took place on Anarchy AfterWord. It gives nothing away about the show, but it addresses your discussion point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, I'm sure that's a factor some of the time. I don't really expect Katey Sagal or Maggie Siff or Drea De Matteo to be topless during their sex scenes. After all, Drea was on Sopranos, where there was plenty of nudity, but none of it by her.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm just happy that I won't have to watch another Gemma/Nero sex scene.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

Speaking of sex scenes, I wonder which will get the better ratings tonight, SOA or The Victoria's Secret Fashion Show.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

midas said:


> Speaking of sex scenes, I wonder which will get the better ratings tonight, SOA or The Victoria's Secret Fashion Show.


I don't need to decide. I've got a spare TiVo tuner.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> I don't need to decide. I've got a spare TiVo tuner.


I do too. But we know that's not how ratings work. It will be interesting to see if a 'cable' show can knock off a juggernaut.


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## GoPackGo (Dec 29, 2012)

midas said:


> I do too. But we know that's not how ratings work. It will be interesting to see if a 'cable' show can knock off a juggernaut.


No way. Last week's episode got just a 2.6 share. True the finale will get a lot of lookeeloos, but this show hasn't reached the pinnacle of the cultural zeitgeist like Sopranos, Friends, Cheers or MASH.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

midas said:


> I do too. But we know that's not how ratings work. It will be interesting to see if a 'cable' show can knock off a juggernauts.


FYP


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

nyny523 said:


> Yeah - something with his foot, or his leg. He was limping all episode.
> 
> Definitely means something...


He's got the gout.

Silent killer.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Jax has zoomed past irredeemable but I can't find myself rooting for his death unlike the way I wanted Clay, Tara, Gemma and Juice to kick the bucket.


I'm hoping he and Wendy get back together and live an nice, long, happy life. I like the guy.


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## Sparty99 (Dec 4, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> I'm hoping he and Wendy get back together and live an nice, long, happy life. I like the guy.


I don't quite go to this extent, but I know where you're coming from. I think Jax's intentions were always good - he wanted to follow in his father's footsteps and transition the club into the sh*t that others had gotten the club into. But there were a few acts - drugging Wendy and killing Unser, to name a few - that were just a bit too far for me.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not really...it can really yank you out of a scene when somebody who's extremely well-known for another role shows up out of the blue.
> 
> They pulled it off with Goggins because boobs, and they pulled it off with Chiklis because, I think, enough time has passed (both in our memory and on his face) that he's not automatically Vic Mackey any more. But Sons went on the air the same year Shield ended, and it could have been a pretty serious distraction if they'd tried it early on, when Sons was still trying to build its own identity and Shield was still fresh in the public consciousness.


Add to that that Goggins is now Boyd Crowder on Justified. I was surprised when they introduced Venus, it's not often you see an actor with a main part on a second show, even if it was originally intended as a "one off".

Chicklis had been tied up with ABC until this year, when he got the part for AHS.

It seems FX has no problem sharing actors across shows.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Sparty99 said:


> But there were a few acts - drugging Wendy and killing Unser, to name a few - that were just a bit too far for me.


The thing that pushed me totally over the edge with Jax was the cold blooded murder of Jury's son and friend. There had to have been a better way to handle that.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Sparty99 said:


> That's exactly my point. For the record, I believe they can show the naughty bits on basic cable (the FCC has no authority because it's pay TV), but they choose not to because of sponsor pressure. My issue is that considering the vile stuff we've seen on the show (i.e., a guy's eyeball literally hanging out of its socket), it's ridiculous that we continue to be so puritanical when it comes to sex.
> 
> But perhaps that's a discussion for another thread.


Dodge is ok with violence and blood. Dodge is ok with the male buttock.

Dodge doesn't like boobies.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Sparty99 said:


> I don't quite go to this extent, but I know where you're coming from. I think Jax's intentions were always good - he wanted to follow in his father's footsteps and transition the club into the sh*t that others had gotten the club into. But there were a few acts - drugging Wendy and killing Unser, to name a few - that were just a bit too far for me.


Unser was crooked as can be, had terminal cancer, had nothing left to live for. His words. So killing him was probably a favor.

Drugging Wendy was pretty horrendous, but it (eventually) led to her getting to live with her kid and have sexy time with her son's father. So we're good there too.


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