# I got screwed



## seaannn (Dec 3, 2007)

Well, I got screwed with DIRECTV today. I don't know if there anything I can do but bend over but at least I'm warning people now. 

Here's what happened. I had a series2 Directv branded tivo and upgraded to HD with the DVR. So I used it for less than 10 minutes and found out it was not TIVO. So I called them to take it back. Directv said once it's activated then they cannot take it back. I guess I should have read the details of the DVR but if I was using a Tivo before so I guess I assume it is as well.

Anyway, I went and sign up with Verizon FIOS and bought my own TIVO from circuitycity. I called today to canceled my Directv and they told me that I had to send their equipment back and pay the cancellation fee. 

So there's my final bill. 

Cancellation fee: $440.00
Directv DVR and others : $398.00
Total bill: $838.00

At least I done dealing with Directv.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

I have mixed emotions in responding to your post. It is never very pleasing to find your expectations have not been met. However, you must remember a couple of points...

Information regarding the DVRs now supplied by DirecTV has been widely available for well over a year. A minimum amount of pre-purchase research would have alerted you to the abilities of the non-TiVo unit.

I have both TiVo and non-TiVo based DirecTV DVRs. I honestly don't rate one better or worse that the other...just different. Each has strengths and weaknesses. That's the way with technology.

I find it interesting that you can make a final decision based on ten minutes experience with the new DVR. Did you really give it a fair trial?

Finally, you can use both receivers. I consistently record HD on the HR20 and SD on my three older receivers. Maybe this would work for you.

- Jon


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

Jon J said:


> I have mixed emotions in responding to your post. It is never very pleasing to find your expectations have not been met. However, you must remember a couple of points...
> 
> Information regarding the DVRs now supplied by DirecTV has been widely available for well over a year. A minimum amount of pre-purchase research would have alerted you to the abilities of the non-TiVo unit.
> 
> ...


I did give the HR20 a fair shake and it literally stinks. Big time. I haven't seen such sloppy programming in my life. The TiVo was great when it started initially when it started and it got better and better. The HR20 series never improved. Just fixed the kinks in whatever was there already. Never changed the format or anything pertaining to the DVR side.


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

If you paid with credit card, file a dispute and ask for a charge back. Cable has a big advantage when it comes to changing your mind or not getting what you thought you were getting. Should be a law about canceling without penalty within 10 days. This is why I always pay with AmExp CC since there are laws giving the consumer some rights.


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## yaddayaddayadda (Apr 8, 2003)

You paid almost a grand just because the software brand of DVR you use to watch TV isn't the one you prefer? Really?

Wow.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

Scott D said:


> I did give the HR20 a fair shake and it literally stinks. Big time. I haven't seen such sloppy programming in my life. The TiVo was great when it started initially when it started and it got better and better. The HR20 series never improved. Just fixed the kinks in whatever was there already. Never changed the format or anything pertaining to the DVR side.


Your post proves you've really not been keeping up with the dramatic improvements in the HR20. It's not perfect. Neither is the TiVo based unit. The HR20 undergoes continual upgrading and improvement. The TiVo based DirecTV units are frozen in time.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

seaannn said:


> Well, I got screwed with DIRECTV today. I don't know if there anything I can do but bend over but at least I'm warning people now.
> 
> Here's what happened. I had a series2 Directv branded tivo and upgraded to HD with the DVR. So I used it for less than 10 minutes and found out it was not TIVO. So I called them to take it back. Directv said once it's activated then they cannot take it back. I guess I should have read the details of the DVR but if I was using a Tivo before so I guess I assume it is as well.
> 
> ...


Yup, that's the new DirecTV:down: They used to be a decent company - not anymore - too bad


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

They did the same thing to me and it is hard to imagine that this would ever pass the "reasonable" test. As a result, I use the Tivo HR10 and the HR20. Sure would like to know what happens if you don't pay the cancellation fee, please post again.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

Seems like an unconscionable contract -- inform your State's Attorney Generals Office and perhaps a letter to the Federal Trade Commission detailing your experience. Be sure to copy DirecTV everything you mail. A complaint to the BBB wouldn't hurt either. If you don't pay the bill, if might eventually go to collections. If/When you get your first collection letter, be sure to respond with a letter of your own disputing the validity of the debt requesting all documentation detailing the alleged debt. You are at an advantage if you didn't explicitly sign anything. Good luck and keep the forum posted on your progress.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

I thought that you had 72 hours to cancel the commitment. I know that isnt much time at all but if you truly made the decision 10 minutes after you got going with it then there should not have been a problem.


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## madbeachcat (Jan 31, 2002)

parzec said:


> Seems like an unconscionable contract -- inform your State's Attorney Generals Office and perhaps a letter to the Federal Trade Commission detailing your experience. Be sure to copy DirecTV everything you mail. A complaint to the BBB wouldn't hurt either. If you don't pay the bill, if might eventually go to collections. If/When you get your first collection letter, be sure to respond with a letter of your own disputing the validity of the debt requesting all documentation detailing the alleged debt. You are at an advantage if you didn't explicitly sign anything. Good luck and keep the forum posted on your progress.


I'm relatively certain he signed a contrct with the terms of service. I don't understand how you can call it that. Plus, when the installer brought it, anyone can see that it's not a Tivo. Why not just refuse the install.

It seems to that a minimal amount of research before hand would gone a long way towards avoiding this problem. At least part of the blame has to fall on the OP.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

coachO said:


> They did the same thing to me and it is hard to imagine that this would ever pass the "reasonable" test. As a result, I use the Tivo HR10 and the HR20. Sure would like to know what happens if you don't pay the cancellation fee, please post again.


Ronald alone has probably mention the 24 month contract at least a hundred times in the past year.

The contract is on their website.

commitment

Agreement

We have links to it in a lot of threads that you participate in.

Why did you sign the contract?

- Craig


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

milominderbinder said:


> Ronald alone has probably mention the 24 month contract at least a hundred times in the past year.
> 
> The contract is on their website.
> 
> ...


It looks like the OP is new to the forum, so perhaps he didn't read the information. I'm guessing that he figured there would be a money back guarantee - after all, all cable companies do it.

We certainly don't know all of the details of what went on, but it would seem to me that DirecTV would want to make sure someone signing up for this new equipment would be made aware of the restrictions at the time of the order. As much as I have changed my mind about a company that I used to admire, I can't imagine that they are so sneaky as to not be sure to tell the buyer at the time of order that there is absolutely no return policy, without paying us 40 bizillion dollars. If they don't tell people at time of purchase, then they are becoming even worse then I thought.


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

It would be nice to know what the differences are between a DirecTV DVR and a TiVo machine? (Aside from the fact that a TiVo product can learn one's viewing choices and automatically record some programs believed to be desired).


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## boneskrw (Jan 28, 2006)

seaannn,
There's something not right about your posting. It's almost as though you work for TIVO or a cable company. Direct TV is and has always been very customer oriented. However, if you call and request equipment, have it installed, and decide for no reason other than a trade name (they don't claim the HR20 to be aTIVO)
that you don't like it or want it, what is their recourse? If you complain loud enough and long enough to the right people, I think they will let you off the hook. Still---something is not right about your story.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

SpiritualPoet said:


> It would be nice to know what the differences are between a DirecTV DVR and a TiVo machine? (Aside from the fact that a TiVo product can learn one's viewing choices and automatically record some programs believed to be desired).


I think if you search this forum area the differences are discussed. Most of it comes down to ease of use, functionality, and what you expect from a DVR.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

boneskrw said:


> seaannn,
> There's something not right about your posting. It's almost as though you work for TIVO or a cable company. Direct TV is and has always been very customer oriented. However, if you call and request equipment, have it installed, and decide for no reason other than a trade name (they don't claim the HR20 to be aTIVO)
> that you don't like it or want it, what is their recourse? If you complain loud enough and long enough to the right people, I think they will let you off the hook. Still---something is not right about your story.


You've got to be kidding right? Customer oriented??? 2-year commitment, no trial period, $800 buyout, CSR roulette, 2nd rated dvr - you call that customer oriented???

He's not the first one reporting this problem. There was another report a few weeks ago from someone else!!


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## boneskrw (Jan 28, 2006)

How does Direct TV win the J.D. Powers list of well-run companies? Have any of you ever dealt with Dish or cable companies? Of the handful of people I know that have HR20/21 DVR's, not one of them even is aware it's not a TIVO. It does what they bought it for--provides a receiver for Direct TV, records programs, has great picture quality, is easy to use. If Direct TV was so difficult to deal with, they would not be far and above the leader in satellite TV. I wonder how many of the thousands of Direct TV customers other than the TIVO diehards on this site care at all whether their DVR is TIVO or not. 

My friends and relatives have told me how they like their HR20/21's. I will join their ranks tomorrow when my HR10 goes to a second room and the HR20 becomes my main DVR. You'll hear from me if the diehard TIVO fans are right about any of their issues.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

RS4 said:


> You've got to be kidding right? Customer oriented??? 2-year commitment, no trial period, $800 buyout, CSR roulette, 2nd rated dvr - you call that customer oriented???
> 
> He's not the first one reporting this problem. There was another report a few weeks ago from someone else!!


I don't think he's kidding... In my experience with DirecTV (10 years), they've always been, and continue to be, customer oriented. The majority of problems that people have with them relate to wanting free equipment and not getting it. Shame on DirecTV for not giving everything away for free...

And, again, I will continue to argue against your 'second rated' DVR comments. The HR20 is far superior to my HR10's. I'm talking significant improvements. And I'll point out again that, unless something has changed, you've still never even used the HR20. So how can you comment on it???


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## slydog75 (Jul 8, 2004)

I don't buy it. I think the OP is a fake account created by a frequent poster trying to stir the pot. WHo would seriously take a $800 hit after only trying the HR20 for 5 minutes? Sure, the HR20 is no Tivo, but it works. And really, the content is king, not what I use to record it with.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

slydog75 said:


> ... And really, the content is king, not what I use to record it with.


I agree... And I think this statement is true for most people - especially regular Joe Customers that don't waste time on boards like this one like we do!


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

I have a Tivo Series 3 and an HR20. I've had the Tivo Series 3 for a year. I bought it after having multiple Tivos on Directv including the HR10-250. I like Tivo a lot. That said, content is king and once Directv came out with 70+ HD channels I got an HR20. Now that I've used them both for a couple of months, I like the HR20 slightly better. 

I love having caller ID on the screen. Now when someone calls for the kids I know not to answer the phone. I also like picture in guide and picture in menu. During boring parts of a show I can check the guide or review and make changes to the To Do list while watching and listening to the show. Now that the HR20 has a true 30 second skip which works faster than the Tivo Series 3, the HR20 has more features that I prefer compared to the Tivo. 

I've added a 1 terabyte drive to the HR20 and a 750 gig Seagate Free Agent pro to the Tivo. Both work very well. It's hard to believe that someone would toss $800 because they didn't like the user interface after trying it for 5 minutes.


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## boneskrw (Jan 28, 2006)

Finally!!! I knew reason would eventually prevail. As I said, there's something not right about the OP.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

boneskrw said:


> Direct TV is and has always been very customer oriented.


Good stuff there. If you got more material where that came from, let me know when you get your show on comedy central, and I'll tivo it.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

boneskrw said:


> How does Direct TV win the J.D. Powers list of well-run companies? Have any of you ever dealt with Dish or cable companies?


Yes. In fact my cable company, WOW, has won the JD power customer satisfaction award in their region over DTV for three years in a row.



As I've said here before, DTV's customer focus is long gone. They're focused on customer retention, not customer satisfaction. So what if you're dissatisfied? If they can buy you off with a few months of free HBO and lock you in for another year or two in the process they've come out ahead. That's not customer satisfaction, that's customer pacification.

As for the original poster, we all know that DTV doesn't go out of their way to make sure the customer understands that they're _not_ getting a TiVo. He probably called in and asked for a TiVo and the CSR didn't make it clear that wasn't what he was getting. So when he made that commitment he did it believing he was committing to a TiVo. There's no telling how many non-tech savy subscribers fall into this trap and simply can't justify the high cost of getting out of their commitment.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

They offer a 3 day "change of mind cancellation" only on the initial install.

The fact that it is written on their website or discussed on a forum does not make it "legal and binding" but try fighting them on it. They will drag you through collections faster then you can reboot your HR20. Eventually you will prevail but not after having to deal with removing the ding from your credit. 

As for "signing," other then when I first signed up about 4 years ago I have never signed any piece of paper nor verbally agreed to any commitment. When they installed my 5LNB & HR20 I never signed anything except the install ticket of which I made a copy which had absolutely nothing other then "was the job completed satisfactorily." The rep never informed me of any agreement (I taped the call) or even suggested it yet when I called to inquire they said I had an agreement. If you want to fight them I'm sure you could win but they are too big to fight unless you have the time and the money.


That being said I believe the OP is a troll post from an existing member.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

yaddayaddayadda said:


> You paid almost a grand just because the software brand of DVR you use to watch TV isn't the one you prefer? Really?


No, he paid $440 in order to get the features he desired. The brand is not relevant. The features are.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Jon J said:


> Finally, you can use both receivers. I consistently record HD on the HR20 and SD on my three older receivers. Maybe this would work for you.


Why would anyone watch SD material if they have HD equipment? I can barely even stand to look at most SD material any longer. I certainly don't record any - other than the weather and the news.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

lrhorer said:


> No, he paid $440 in order to get the features he desired. The brand is not relevant. The features are.


One of the features he desired was TiVo software, so clearly he didn't get what he paid for.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Scott D said:


> The TiVo was great when it started initially when it started and it got better and better.


What TiVo? Not the HR10-250!!! It started out being the best thing TV wise I ever did. Update and update up to the final 6.3d(?) update things got worse and worse and worse. It would lock-up, miss recording, freeze shows, reset and just plain sicked!! I was pssed and took a chance on the HR20. yes, it's not Tivo and some hate it.

But I learned to like the GUI better. I miss some Tivo features, but I ganied some besides the newer HD channels. To be Honest, mine has NEVER had an issue. Oh, I am sorry, the Optical port died within the first month. But it's never missed a recording, freeze up or anything. I also never did any CE either.

Others will say their HR20 has issues and their HR10 was perfect. It could go either way.

But to say Tivo (HR) got better was the funniest pile of crap I have heard here yet!! TiVo's HR10 WAS a great machine. A little kiddie in the UI, but it worked and it *was* the best DVR.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

RS4 said:


> 2nd rated dvr


In your opinion and other die hard Tivo fans. Fpr others the HR20 is much, much better.

Now I agree, D* service and overall experience SUCKS. But it's still better than Comcrap around here.

This whole HD Extra pack crap they are pulling is the worst thing yet IMO.

I wish I TRULY had a choice. No FIOS here ( I hear it also sicks and has issues.), Comcast sucks as well as their DVRs. I won't pay $800 for a S3.

I also don't care for the Tivo GUI anymore. I could be happy with the S3 for $250

So I am stuck with D* for now. But the overall CSR is becoming some of the worse I have ever seen.


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## slydog75 (Jul 8, 2004)

SpiritualPoet said:


> I searched but could not find a suitable thread that explains the difference(s) between a DirecTV DVR and a TiVo machine.
> 
> There may have been various DVRs used in the past by DirecTV, I have no idea. I don't have time to digest a bunch of old posts - I simply want to know what the difference(s) is/are from what is given a new customer by DirecTV in the form of a DVR versus a TiVo owner. I'm thinking of getting DirecTV service otherwise I wouldn't be asking. Someone be nice enough to just give me a simplified but direct answer without steering me into the recesses of this Website.


If you've never used a Tivo you will be perfectly happy with the current DirecTV offerings. Tivo has spoiled the rest of us. It's like being fed grada A kolby beef hamburgers for years and then having your favorite restaurant switch to run of the mill ground beef. Sure it's good, but it's not kolby.


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## tfederov (Jul 6, 2003)

SpiritualPoet said:


> I searched but could not find a suitable thread that explains the difference(s) between a DirecTV DVR and a TiVo machine.
> 
> There may have been various DVRs used in the past by DirecTV, I have no idea. I don't have time to digest a bunch of old posts - I simply want to know what the difference(s) is/are from what is given a new customer by DirecTV in the form of a DVR versus a TiVo owner. I'm thinking of getting DirecTV service otherwise I wouldn't be asking. Someone be nice enough to just give me a simplified but direct answer without steering me into the recesses of this Website.


Check my sig.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Runch Machine said:


> I have a Tivo Series 3 and an HR20. I've had the Tivo Series 3 for a year. I bought it after having multiple Tivos on Directv including the HR10-250. I like Tivo a lot. That said, content is king and once Directv came out with 70+ HD channels I got an HR20.


1. True, but the King isn't the only royal entity in the palace. More on that in a moment. In the mean time, the biggest advantage of t he TiVo is its ability to deliver vastly superior content, "superior" being defined by the user at hand. With Wishlists and hyperfine target filters, missing a choice piece of programming is completely unnecessary, and entirely the fault of the user, not the DVR. Does the DirecTV DVR have wishlists and hyperfine source filters? Hmm...

Of course it can get Amazon Unbox videos and Internet podcasts like Cranky Geeks, CNet.com, DL.TV, The New York Times, and dozens of others, right? Hmm...

It has updated weather and traffic reports with maps and forecasts, right? Hmm...

It works with the user's Rhapsody Music subscription, right? Hmm...

Oh, and it has a suggestions feature, so that it records features it thinks you may like based upon historical viewing habits and user voting, right? Hmm...

Does the DirecTV DVR allow the user to play his own videos (HD or SD), music, and photos on the DVR? (I don't recall, it may do this.)

Well, well. Content is king, and that's the biggest reason of all why the other offerings I've seen don't hold a candle to TiVo. They don't allow the user to record or show all the materials they like, and some which are available are much more difficult and time consuming to get.

2. OK, so much for the King, now what about the Queen? If content is King, then features are Queen, and TiVo's Queen has many features, indeed:

Multi-Room Viewing
TiVo to Go and Come Back
Internet based record scheduling
Burning recorded shows to DVD
Thumbs-Up scheduling
online special announcements
Expandability
Swivel Search
Play games
TiVo KidZone
Fandango ticket listings and purchasing
Online lyrics lookup for music (Galleon)
Online album cover lookup for music (Galleon)
Live views of the PC server desktop (Galleon)
View incoming e-mail (Galleon)
View Internet webcams and other live images (Galleon)
View RSS feeds (Galleon)
Jabber Messenger Service (Galleon)
Local theater listings (Galleon)
Shoutcast (Galleon)
Share home videos (One True Media)
Watch music videos (Music Choice)

We've seen how the HR20 King stacks up, how does the HR20 Queen fare?



Runch Machine said:


> Now that I've used them both for a couple of months, I like the HR20 slightly better.


Better than the TiVo, or better than when you first purchased the HR20?



Runch Machine said:


> I love having caller ID on the screen.


If this were a hard coded feature, I would pay a moderate amount of money to have it removed. Why anyone woudl want this feature is quite far beyond me. That said, it isn't very difficult to add this feature to a TiVo. It requires hacking the TiVo, but then I can barely imagine anyone buying a DVR without hacking it (or having someone else hack it). The hack for Caller ID is not difficult.



Runch Machine said:


> Now when someone calls for the kids I know not to answer the phone.


Around here, if someone calls, it's for the kids. I have a much simpler solution than in-picture Caller ID. I don't answer the phone. Ever. If it's a friend or relative, they can leave a voicemail. If it's urgent, they can call my cell phone. If it's a creditor or a telemarketer, they can kiss my @$$. I could of course put this feature on my TiVo's, but I'd rather soul-kiss a warthog.



Runch Machine said:


> I also like picture in guide and picture in menu.


'Yet another "feature" I would pay to have disabled. A lot of people have requested TiVo to add this feature. A significant number of people have asked TiVo *NOT* to add the feature. I vote, "Not only no, but HELLL NO!!"



Runch Machine said:


> During boring parts of a show I can check the guide or review and make changes to the To Do list while watching and listening to the show.


Why anyone would even consider watching a show which had any boring parts whatsoever is beyond me. If I watch a show I have never seen before, at the first sign of any significantly boring segments, the show gets dumped immediately.



Runch Machine said:


> Now that the HR20 has a true 30 second skip which works faster than the Tivo Series 3, the HR20 has more features that I prefer compared to the Tivo.


I've read that about the HR20. 'Score one for the HR20.



Runch Machine said:


> I've added a 1 terabyte drive to the HR20 and a 750 gig Seagate Free Agent pro to the Tivo. Both work very well. It's hard to believe that someone would toss $800 because they didn't like the user interface after trying it for 5 minutes.


He didn't. He (may have) tossed $440.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Jon J said:


> Your post proves you've really not been keeping up with the dramatic improvements in the HR20. It's not perfect. Neither is the TiVo based unit. The HR20 undergoes continual upgrading and improvement. The TiVo based DirecTV units are frozen in time.


This thread is not about DirecTiVo units. This thread is about the comparison between the HR20 and the TiVo offerings with FIOS or CATV based subscriptions. The OP said he went with TiVo and FIOS. He didn't say whetehr it was a Series II or Series III.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

gio1269 said:


> But to say Tivo (HR) got better was the funniest pile of crap I have heard here yet!! TiVo's HR10 WAS  a great machine. A little kiddie in the UI, but it worked and it *was* the best DVR.


No one said that. The comparison is between the HR20 and Stand Alone TiVos.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

See in line responses:


lrhorer said:


> Multi-Room Viewing Not available on the HR20 at this time, but has been stated as a future enhancement
> TiVo to Go and Come Back Not available
> Internet based record scheduling Available
> Burning recorded shows to DVD Available via a DVD Recorder, and no need to change resolution
> ...


And now some additional ones:

-) Group Play (play an entire folder)
-) Group Delete (Delete an entire folder)
-) Mark and Delete (bulk select items to delete)
-) Caller-ID (regardless if you would never use it yourself... it is a feature that some will use)
-) Space Usage Guide
-) Simultaneous outputs (all outputs active in proper format resolutions at the same time)
-) DirecTV On-Demand, with no need to subscribe to another service (like NetFlix)
-) Boolean Search options for Search (Including Inclusive AND, OR, and NOT)
-) Skip or Slip, your choice for 30s motion
-) Native RF support (for OEM remote)
-) Same Channel / Same Tuner / Overlap recording (aka you can pad recordings on the same channel to overlap, without using the other tuner)
-) 90 Minute Single Buffer (vs Dual Live Buffers, on a dual enabled system on TiVo)


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

nrc said:


> One of the features he desired was TiVo software, so clearly he didn't get what he paid for.


Well, yeah. My point is the TiVo software implies certain features. If Joe Bob's Bait Shop manages to create a DVR with essentially all the features of the TiVo and just a different brand name, then the decision becomes more one of cost, availability, or support than the UI.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

yaddayaddayadda said:


> You paid almost a grand just because the software brand of DVR you use to watch TV isn't the one you prefer? Really?


No, he risked losing $440 because he wants a DVR with a full set of features, including the ability to automatically record all the shows he wants to watch.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

lrhorer said:


> Well, yeah. My point is the TiVo software implies certain features. If Joe Bob's Bait Shop manages to create a DVR with essentially all the features of the TiVo and just a different brand name, then the decision becomes more one of cost, availability, or support than the UI.


That's nonsense and I don't believe for an instant you actually operate that way when you're shopping for electronics. If you do you've got a shelf full of COBY components and an Insignia TV. I suppose an HR20 must fit in nicely.


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## scottjf8 (Nov 11, 2001)

slydog75 said:


> I don't buy it. I think the OP is a fake account created by a frequent poster trying to stir the pot. WHo would seriously take a $800 hit after only trying the HR20 for 5 minutes? Sure, the HR20 is no Tivo, but it works. And really, the content is king, not what I use to record it with.


Gee, registered this month and this person's first post? 

Spend a great deal of time with the HR2x boxes after using TiVo, and you will really love it.. heck, I do, and I'm a Tivo fanatic. Ask Federov


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

nrc said:


> That's nonsense and I don't believe for an instant you actually operate that way when you're shopping for electronics. If you do you've got a shelf full of COBY components and an Insignia TV. I suppose an HR20 must fit in nicely.


Hilarious Post and so true!  I can't believe the people saying brands don't matter if the products do the same thing.

ME: I paid for a Rolex but got a Seiko 
DTV DRONES: What are you complaining about? They both keep time and look nice, and besides the Seiko even keeps better time. 
Me: HA HA HA...

I also love the DTV knee-jerk response of "the contract is online" "the details are online" so you should have known. Well, I have a website putting all online retailers on notice, that says term contracts and cancelation fees are void for any online retailer that contracts with me for services. So perhaps DirecTV should research my website before doing business with me.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Multi-Room Viewing Not available on the HR20 at this time, but has been stated as a future enhancement
*So that would be a "Not available".*

TiVo to Go and Come Back *Not available*

Internet based record scheduling Available
*OK, that's two for the HR20*

Burning recorded shows to DVD Available via a DVD Recorder, and no need to change resolution
*You lost me, there. Are you talking about a set-top DVD recorder? That's an extra box, and I don't know of any HD DVD Recorders*

Thumbs-Up scheduling I beleive you are referring to the commercials with the "setup the recording now... no *not available*

online special announcements Available
*Score Three*

Expandability Available
*Score four*

Swivel Search *Not available*, I really need to read up on what the big deal with Swivel Search is as it was never on the DTiVos so never used it

It's sort of like the Kevin Bacon game. One can swivel from one movie in a genre to another movie in the genre to movies with with one actor in the second movie to a different actor in one of the movies with the first actor to the second actor in a different movie to the director of that movie to other movies with the director...

Play games Available
*Score Five*

TiVo KidZone Basically Parental controls... so yes, it is available

No, it's much more functional than just parental controls. The TiVo has parental controls, as well. I think every receiver manufactured these days does. The correct answer is, "*Not available*"

Fandango ticket listings and purchasing *Not available*
Share home videos (One True Media) Available, kinda... depends on exact definition of what is done there... but is possible to access video files on a PC
Watch music videos (Music Choice) Available via DoD, and other programming

No, once again, this is different. One True Media allows one to share home videos, photographs, and slide shows (with sound) with anyone you authorize around the world who also has a TiVo. Any friend, relative, or colleague can get your content. The correct answer is, "*Not available*"

These that you listed
Online lyrics lookup for music (Galleon)
Online album cover lookup for music (Galleon)
Live views of the PC server desktop (Galleon)
View incoming e-mail (Galleon)
View Internet webcams and other live images (Galleon)
View RSS feeds (Galleon)
Jabber Messenger Service (Galleon)
Local theater listings (Galleon)
Shoutcast (Galleon)

These appear to be features of a third party media server...
Some of those features are available via Twonky media server for the HR20.

1. Yes, Galleon is a 3rd party server. There are also others, such as pyTiVo, TiVo Desktop, and TiVo.Net, but none of them contain all the features of Galleon, which is why I listed it.

2. Twonky Media is not free.

3. Which ones are supported by Twonky Media?

And now some additional ones:

-) Group Play (play an entire folder)


For video? Why would anyone want that? Group play for Music is available on the TiVo, with or without random ordering. That, and one can create custom playlists for the TiVo. I never use this, so I forgot to mention the feature.

-)Group Delete (Delete an entire folder)
-) Mark and Delete (bulk select items to delete)

'Pretty dangerous, and I don't think I would ever use it very much, if at all, but no, the Tivo doesn't support this directly. TiVoweb plus does, though.

-) Caller-ID (regardless if you would never use it yourself... it is a feature that some will use)

As I said, it's an easy hack. If the user is uncomfortable with hacking their TiVo, they can always have someone do it for them.

-) Space Usage Guide

That's easy. On the TiVo it's always 0. The TiVo is always full, unless it's brand new or the user has suggestions shut off. Why anyone would shut off suggestions is beyond me.

-) Simultaneous outputs (all outputs active in proper format resolutions at the same time)

OK, so? I'm not sure why this would be a feature of concern. I'm also not sure the Series III doesn't.

-) DirecTV On-Demand, with no need to subscribe to another service (like NetFlix)

I'm constantly puzzled why anyone with a DVR would be concerned about On-Demand services. Other than when my duties required (I used to work for a CATV company), I have never requested an On-Demand video, and I never intend so to do. All the programs in which I might be interested on the On Demand channels are already on my TiVo, so why would I care about On Demand? Of course no one with non-satellite services has access specifically to DirecTV On-Demand, but that's a moot point.

-) Boolean Search options for Search (Including Inclusive AND, OR, and NOT)

Look again. TiVo has it, for title, director, actor, genre, or keyword, plus the ability to limit to HD only searches.

-) Skip or Slip, your choice for 30s motion

Yeah, I've read this. Score a bonus point for the HR-20

-) Native RF support (for OEM remote)

Now that's cool. On the other hand, Weaknees sells a little doohickey which makes any (and every) remote into an RF remote. It's $49 plus $29 for each additional remote conversion. That way, every remote (including universals) for every device can be used in any room within 100' of the doohickey. I don't know how well it works, but if it works as advertised, then every IR device can be converted to RF.

-) Same Channel / Same Tuner / Overlap recording (aka you can pad recordings on the same channel to overlap, without using the other tuner)
That's also cool, andI wish TiVo had it. Indeed, sicne it's merely a software utility,and a fairly simple one at that, I'm hoping they will implement it. In tyhe mean time, I have multiple TiVo's so I can work around the odd triple-channel conflict, even if two of the channels are in actuality the same channel.

-) 90 Minute Single Buffer (vs Dual Live Buffers, on a dual enabled system on TiVo)

I haven't watched live TV in 7 years, and I really don't know why anyone with a TiVo ever would. With some other DVRs, I can understand watching live TV, but with a TiVo, it's just silly. In my estimation, the size of the live buffer is nearly irrelevant.

OK, so looking back, the HR-20 so far scores 7 "Not available" marks, plus however many of the 3rd party features are misssing, plus some number of "Available only with the purchase of extra software" marks. It does get 5 "Available" marks, and a bonus for the 30 second skip. That's not so hot.

The TiVo, on the other hand, has 24 "Available" marks, 3 "Available with a hack", 1 "Available with the purchase of a 3rd party device", and 5 "Not Available" marks, three of which I personally consider unimportant. The jury is still out on the Group Play (if you mean play a group of programs, rather than music) and the Multiple Active Outputs, although once again I don't see how these are important, or even particularly desirable.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

nrc said:


> That's nonsense and I don't believe for an instant you actually operate that way when you're shopping for electronics. If you do you've got a shelf full of COBY components and an Insignia TV. I suppose an HR20 must fit in nicely.


No, I've got NEC, Mitsubishi, and Optoma video devices (only 1 - the Mitsubishi - is a "TV", per se). I bought each because they offered the best set of features for the cost. If the features are equivalent, then the total cost of ownership (which includes warranty / service considerations, media costs, reliability, etc.) are next in line. If both those are basically equal, then the purchase cost is next in line. I don't usually buy Coby or Insignia because they don't usually have an acceptable level of quality, which impacts both the features and total cost of ownership line.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

To those of you complaining the OP's not take more than 10 minutes to try out the HR-20 before dumping it, let me say this:

I am all for thoroughly testing and trying a device before coming to a decision about it's overall merits and flaws. Indeed, I gave the Scientific Atlanta a good five days before finalizing my decision to rank it as the 3rd worst piece of crap I had ever used in the way of high tech electronics. (If anyone is interested, I can post the two worst, but neither of them are DVRs or even video equipment).

All that said, however, one needn't drive a Yugo for a month to be able to tell it isn't a Bentley or a Ferrari. It also wouldn't take me very long to decide not to purchase the Yugo if it came with the same price tag as a brand new Ferrari. Even if it were a Porsche at which I was looking and it was bargain basement priced, it wouldn't take me five minutes to reject it - inexpensive and Porsche or not - if it required a fuel I could not obtain here in the United States. I've never used the HR-20, but from what I have been told of its features, it would not take me long to decide not to go with it, because it is lacking several absolutely critical features. If I'm wrong in the assessment of the lack of features, someone please correct me, but *BE SPECIFIC*. Don't just come back and say, "You're wrong". Tell me what critical features of the HR-10 I've overlooked.

As to whether the OP is a troll or not, I don't know and I really don't care. He'sparked an interesting conversation, and that's all that really matters.


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## robnalex (Sep 8, 2002)

You know....you girls really have way too much time on your hands.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

parzec said:


> Hilarious Post and so true!  I can't believe the people saying brands don't matter if the products do the same thing.


If you mean me, I never said that. I'm the one to whom the previous poster replied. It's true that certain manufacturers tend to produce fine products while others produce products of more inferior quality, but the brand in and of itself is meaningless. A crappy Sony is both still crappy and still a Sony. Just because it's a Ferrari doesn't mean it isn't a lemon. That said, both Sony and Ferrari make many fine products, including some at least which are the very best of their type. Yet an item's being the best one can buy does not necessarily imply it is the best value. There are many items out there for which one pays a great deal for nothing more than the name. This proves nothing except that being rich does not prevent one from being an idiot.



parzec said:


> ME: I paid for a Rolex but got a Seiko


That's a good example. Rolex makes crappy watches. They're poor at keeping time (why buy a watch at any price if it isn't going to keep time? why buy a DVR at any price if it doesn't do all the things a DVR should do?), they're frail, and if you ask me, they're ugly. Heuer makes a much finer watch for much less money, and some of the Heuer watches are actually attractive. The Seiko at it's normal price is always a better value than the Rolex. Of course if it is true only an an idiot would buy a Rolex, then only a truly great idiot would pay a Rolex price for the Seiko, but in reality the Rolex purchaser is an even bigger idiot in a way. At least the overpriced Seiko purchaser is getting a good watch. Oh, by the way, the best value in a watch is generally a Casio, with some exceptions. For most purposes, one can get a better, more rugged Casio for a price well below any Seiko, far below most Heuers, and far, far below what even a broken and battered beyond repair Rolex costs.



parzec said:


> DTV DRONES: What are you complaining about? They both keep time and look nice, and besides the Seiko even keeps better time.


Apparently you hadn't noticed, I'm not a DTV drone. I'm on the side of the TiVo. If the HR-20 had the features of the TiVo, then there would be no cause to prefer the Series III TiVo to the HR-20 (DirecTV's sales antics aside). The fact is, however, the HR-20 doesn't have the features of the TiVo, including at least three absolutely critical ones.



parzec said:


> I also love the DTV knee-jerk response of "the contract is online" "the details are online" so you should have known.


That's not a knee-jerk response. It's just good common sense to explore all the important aspects of a purchase. Caveat emptor always applies, and they are right. The details of the DTV service are readily available. It's the buyer's fault for not reading the fine print.



parzec said:


> Well, I have a website putting all online retailers on notice, that says term contracts and cancelation fees are void for any online retailer that contracts with me for services. So perhaps DirecTV should research my website before doing business with me.


If they were purchasing goods and services from you, then yeah, they should, as well as any other reasonable and prudent research given the amount of money they will be handing over to you. The reverse is not only not true, it's just plain silly. The only thing any seller must beware is hot checks and counterfeit cash. It's caveat emptor, not caveat venditor.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

robnalex said:


> You know....you girls really have way too much time on your hands.


I am not female, but I am on a well deserved vacation, so I'll spend my time relaxing any way I like, thank you.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> As to whether the OP is a troll or not, I don't know and I really don't care. He'sparked an interesting conversation, and that's all that really matters.


Yes he did!! And I can attest to that. I tried to return mine (HR20) 6 days after I got it and they said no. Go figure.


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## tfederov (Jul 6, 2003)

scottjf8 said:


> Gee, registered this month and this person's first post?
> 
> Spend a great deal of time with the HR2x boxes after using TiVo, and you will really love it.. heck, I do, and I'm a Tivo fanatic. Ask Federov


It's true. He drank the kool aid.


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## yaddayaddayadda (Apr 8, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> No, he risked losing $440 because he wants a DVR with a full set of features, including the ability to automatically record all the shows he wants to watch.


Um. Hate to break it to you, but just about all DVR's "automatically record all the shows you want to watch".

Ok, it's almost half a grand. Over TV. Just thrown down the toilet. Seems extremely wasteful.


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## Indiana627 (Jan 24, 2003)

Scott D said:


> I did give the HR20 a fair shake and it literally stinks. Big time. I haven't seen such sloppy programming in my life. The TiVo was great when it started initially when it started and it got better and better. The HR20 series never improved. Just fixed the kinks in whatever was there already. Never changed the format or anything pertaining to the DVR side.


As a Directivo user for 3+ years including the HR10, I can honestly say that to me, the HR20 is just as good if not better than the HR10. Never misses a recording, never reboots, much faster menus, plus it can records all the new HD channels.



SpiritualPoet said:


> It would be nice to know what the differences are between a DirecTV DVR and a TiVo machine? (Aside from the fact that a TiVo product can learn one's viewing choices and automatically record some programs believed to be desired).


Bias from Tivo lovers is the main difference. I've used both interfaces (and still have an SD Directivo in use) and find the HR20 actually easier to use.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

lrhorer said:


> This thread is not about DirecTiVo units.


Which part of this quote from the OP do you not understand?

"I had a series2 Directv branded tivo and upgraded to HD with the DVR."


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> It looks like the OP is new to the forum, *so perhaps he didn't read the information.* I'm guessing that he figured there would be a money back guarantee - after all, all cable companies do it.
> 
> We certainly don't know all of the details of what went on, but it would seem to me that DirecTV would want to make sure someone signing up for this new equipment would be made aware of the restrictions at the time of the order. As much as I have changed my mind about a company that I used to admire, I can't imagine that they are so sneaky as to not be sure to tell the buyer at the time of order that there is absolutely no return policy, without paying us 40 bizillion dollars. If they don't tell people at time of purchase, then they are becoming even worse then I thought.


The highlighted is the key statement here, as the courts state - ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you enter into a contract without reading the terms of service before you aggree to it and it turns out to have specific early terminate clause that the signer did not read, the only one ot blame is yourself and no one else.

Not sure what cable company you deal with, but the one here has no "money back garuntee" here at all, you sign up, if they come out and do the install you are stuck for the entire length of service for the contract or you pay the etf. Bottom line RTFC


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

Wow. I'm out of breath just reading this. 

I can't believe you'd take so much time to argue back and forth this way.

Oh well. From what I have heard from others the HR20 is growing on them. A lot of folks like it better. I just wish I could skip from one tick to the next easier. Other than that I think it's a fine machine. :up:



lrhorer said:


> Multi-Room Viewing Not available on the HR20 at this time, but has been stated as a future enhancement
> *So that would be a "Not available".*
> 
> TiVo to Go and Come Back *Not available*
> ...


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Jon J said:


> The TiVo based DirecTV units are frozen in time.


they are waiting for the HR20 to catch up, thats why  I still prefer accuracy over the speed of the hr20 when it comes to managing newly entered recordings but others dont and have gotten used to it. But as i only use hr20 for the new HD channels, it's not to much an issue to me


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

SpiritualPoet said:


> I searched but could not find a suitable thread that explains the difference(s) between a DirecTV DVR and a TiVo machine.
> 
> There may have been various DVRs used in the past by DirecTV, I have no idea. I don't have time to digest a bunch of old posts - I simply want to know what the difference(s) is/are from what is given a new customer by DirecTV in the form of a DVR versus a TiVo owner. I'm thinking of getting DirecTV service otherwise I wouldn't be asking. Someone be nice enough to just give me a simplified but direct answer without steering me into the recesses of this Website.


The Tivo has a peanut shaped remote, the HR20 doesn't. That's the biggest difference I've noticed.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

nrc said:


> One of the features he desired was TiVo software, so clearly he didn't get what he paid for.


He got exactly what he paid for, since nothing was done or said to him to indicate that he would be getting TiVo software (and, as someone else pointed out here, it wouldn't take much looking around on this forum to know that you do not).

He just decided that he didn't want what was advertised and what he paid for. Unfortunately for him, he did it after the three day period. (The standard period, by the way, and the law in some states, including New Jersey).

If Directv ends up giving him his money back, you and I are paying for it. I, for one, would prefer not to.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> That's not a knee-jerk response. It's just good common sense to explore all the important aspects of a purchase. Caveat emptor always applies, and they are right. The details of the DTV service are readily available. It's the buyer's fault for not reading the fine print.
> 
> If they were purchasing goods and services from you, then yeah, they should, as well as any other reasonable and prudent research given the amount of money they will be handing over to you. The reverse is not only not true, it's just plain silly. The only thing any seller must beware is hot checks and counterfeit cash. It's caveat emptor, not caveat venditor.


I admit my example was made somewhat in jest, but it was intended to cause people to ask themselves why they agree to the role of corporate push-over? The whole idea of incorporation is to legally treat the company like a person, not a diety. You give too much power to the corporation, and sell yourself short as a consumer. In effect, DirecTV and the consumer are two people sitting down to make a contract for services and money. What will DirecTV give me for my money and what will I give DirecTV for their services. (This happens to a certain extent in retention deals) But if DirecTV relies on the ever changing and modified terms of service located online, then why can't the consumer do the same with a website specifying his terms of payment? If my acceptance of service ratifies their online contract terms, then perhaps their acceptance of my money ratifies my online contract terms. I am just offering a consumer oriented perspective in a world where corporate superiority is too often conceded.


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

RS4 said:


> You've got to be kidding right? Customer oriented??? 2-year commitment, no trial period, $800 buyout, CSR roulette, 2nd rated dvr - you call that customer oriented???
> 
> He's not the first one reporting this problem. There was another report a few weeks ago from someone else!!


Are you still under a commitment? It sounds like you would like to leave D* but can't for some reason. I'm just trying to figure out why someone who despises s company the way you do continues to do business with them.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

We can continue to go back and forth on what the HR20 vs TiVo has in feature sets.

What is "added-on" by third party....
(Note: Twonky was the incorrect media server, TVersity is the one that is more commonly used... specifically because it is free, and has more features available)

Hacks/Tweeks ect... All are good things for TiVo, but they are still hacks/tweeks that the average customer is not going to access.

As for the features you discredit because you don't use them...
I am not discrediting Swivile search, or some of the ones on TiVo that I would never use... am I?

If we are going to rank features based on what we use.... most of those listed on the TiVo systems now, would have ZERO impact on my usage... as I wouldn't use them.

Doesn't make them bad features, or not features of the box... just something that I wouldn't use.

And that is EXACTLY what a consumer has to decide for themselves... what features do they want, and what do they have to do to use them.... and then decide which platform they want to go with.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

My theory is that the original poster is just one of the forum troublemakers under a new name 

Why are we comparing stand alone TIVO's to DirecTV recorders ? They are quite different. The DirecTivo never did 80% of those things.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Either the OP (who somehow didn't know he was not getting a tivo but knew EXACTLY where to come to ***** about it on his first post) is a fool or a fake.

Look at the stupidity. He bought a Tivo and signed up for Fios before finding out what the cancellation was on DirecTV. He assumed there was no issue. Why he didn't cancel when he was complaining at them?

A fool and his money....


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

Indiana627 said:


> As a Directivo user for 3+ years including the HR10, I can honestly say that to me, the HR20 is just as good if not better than the HR10. Never misses a recording, never reboots, much faster menus, plus it can records all the new HD channels.
> 
> Bias from Tivo lovers is the main difference. I've used both interfaces (and still have an SD Directivo in use) and find the HR20 actually easier to use.


And......

Where are the comparisons? Dual tuner and search features? What about that stuff? Have you checked out the recording history lately?

You got me on the new HD channels but what about the other stuff. Have you ever heard of comparing apples to oranges? It's like comparing cars to motorcycles. Totally unfair comparison. You're telling me a feature an HR20 can do that in which there is no way a TiVo can do. Two totally different functions.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Scott D, why do you want to argue his opinion ? I can honestly say that none of the things you mention get close to the value of the HD channels to me. I find myself missing nothing from the DirecTivo except the Grid Style Guide. It's just my opinion, hence it cannot be wrong


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

joed32 said:


> I'm just trying to figure out why someone who despises s company the way you do continues to do business with them.


To obtain their product, of course. DirecTV burned me for $200 on a billing error. For several months and many, many phone calls of trying to get it fixed (basic runaround, call this extension, talk to this number, over and over and over again), I gave in, and paid them. That's just one of the problems I have had with DTV customer service.

Where I live, my 2 tv choices are DirecTV or Dish. I like the service provided. The picture quality, the channel selection, my army of networked, hard-drive-expanded tivo dvrs. I can't get all those things from dish, so I have really only one choice.

So, I despise the customer service I've received, but I tolerate it, in order to have continuing service. The fact that I've chosen to continue service with them does not mean I forfeit my right to be dissatisfied with their poor customer service, and if/when the day comes I can get the same things I'm getting from my DTV service elsewhere, I will "drop DRV like it's hot."

(point of clarification: I'm not the person joed32's reply was addressing, but I felt my situation is similar, and thought my reply is relevant)


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I wonder if we can get the OP to respond? 

Let's all say "TROLL" at the same time!


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

JimSpence said:


> I wonder if we can get the OP to respond?
> 
> Let's all say "TROLL" at the same time!


I would venture that there has been a response under his "other" name.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

jimb726 said:


> I would venture that there has been a response under his "other" name.


At least its made some interesting and lively discussion!!


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

jimb726 said:


> I would venture that there has been a response under his "other" name.


Maybe under one of his "other" names.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Indiana627 said:


> Bias from Tivo lovers is the main difference. I've used both interfaces (and still have an SD Directivo in use) and find the HR20 actually easier to use.


Or perhaps the difference is bias from DirecTV lovers. Some folks will take what they're given and call it good because they're unwilling or unable to switch to a different programming provider.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

JohnB1000 said:


> My theory is that the original poster is just one of the forum troublemakers under a new name


It doesn't really make sense that a DirecTV subscriber with no real reason to be on a TiVo forum would make such a post.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

nrc said:


> Or perhaps the difference is bias from DirecTV lovers. Some folks will take what they're given and call it good because they're unwilling or unable to switch to a different programming provider.


Or maybe what they're given just works better. I have three HR10's and three HR20's. I just deactivated the HR10's because the HR20's are superior in pretty much every way. The only thing I preferred about the HR10's was the dual live buffers. But I've even gotten over that.

Maybe it was just luck, but my HR20's have been much more reliable than the HR10's ever were - even the old HR10 software, which was far more reliable than the current version.

Believe me - I was a TiVo fan and was quite disappointed when DirecTV initially announced the transition to their own platform. I was further troubled when I got my R15 and saw how bad that product was (at least initially - it seems that it may have improved greatly). But when I finally got my HR20's about 6 months ago I found that they were an all around better platform. The UI is more useful and less cartoonish. The speed is GREATLY improved. And, most importantly, recording reliability is significantly improved. Improved to the point that I trust the HR20's to record as planned - Something I couldn't do with the HR10's.

So I wouldn't call it a bias... I had both and gave both a fair shot. By any objective measure, the worst anyone can say about the HR20 is that it's as good as the HR10. I would argue, however, that it's much, much better.


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## boneskrw (Jan 28, 2006)

Ditto, Badmonkey,

My HR10 was replaced by a HR20 today. So far, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out all the fuss on this board about non-Tivo DVR's. I'll certainly post if I find something about the HR20 that's not as good as the HR10.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

badmonkey said:


> So I wouldn't call it a bias... I had both and gave both a fair shot. By any objective measure, the worst anyone can say about the HR20 is that it's as good as the HR10. I would argue, however, that it's much, much better.


You're accepting what you've been allowed to have. Can't blame you for making the most of it, but you don't really have any choice if you're keeping DirecTV.

If you like your satellite company DVR, why come here to a TiVo forum? Why not go hang out on the boring satellite company DVR forum and discuss your boring satellite company DVR? Everyone here who isn't willing to drop DirecTV will sooner or later end up with a non-TiVo DVR. So who are you trying to convince besides yourselves?


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

RS4 said:


> At least its made some interesting and lively discussion!!


That it has!!


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

nrc said:


> It doesn't really make sense that a DirecTV subscriber with no real reason to be on a TiVo forum would make such a post.


I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not. I think there are people here who would make such a post, under a fake login, to stir up an argument.



nrc said:


> You're accepting what you've been allowed to have. Can't blame you for making the most of it, but you don't really have any choice if you're keeping DirecTV.
> 
> If you like your satellite company DVR, why come here to a TiVo forum? Why not go hang out on the boring satellite company DVR forum and discuss your boring satellite company DVR? Everyone here who isn't willing to drop DirecTV will sooner or later end up with a non-TiVo DVR. So who are you trying to convince besides yourselves?


Once again I can't tell what your post is saying. Many people like the HR20/21 more, some the same, some less but are willing to put up with it to get the channels. In the end the benefits far outweigh the negatives for me and many others.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

JohnB1000 said:


> I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not. I think there are people here who would make such a post, under a fake login, to stir up an argument.


I'm pointing out that it's ironic that people who simply prefer TiVo software would be characterized as "troublemakers" on a TiVo forum.



> Once again I can't tell what your post is saying. Many people like the HR20/21 more, some the same, some less but are willing to put up with it to get the channels. In the end the benefits far outweigh the negatives for me and many others.


That's a good thing since they're all committed to it for two years. But did they commit to it for two years because they like it, or do they like it because they're committed to it for two years? Given that they didn't have an opportunity to find out that they like it before they committed the answer is obvious, isn't it?


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

JohnB1000 said:


> Scott D, why do you want to argue his opinion ? I can honestly say that none of the things you mention get close to the value of the HD channels to me. I find myself missing nothing from the DirecTivo except the Grid Style Guide. It's just my opinion, hence it cannot be wrong


There is no argument here. I get to same story about how wonderful the HR20 is without any comparison between the two. I have done a comparison between the two of them. A meticulous comparison. I'm not demanding that the HR20 become a TiVo, just quite the opposite. I expect the HR20 to be more smartly programmed of which they have failed to do. If you are happy with sub par programming, it doesn't bother me a bit. If you're going to say the machine is great, put some evidence into it. Prove it to me.

I am only stating what I have seen so far and the only difference between my observations verses some others is that I am comparing same features that both come with stock. Caller ID is not stock on a TiVo so that will not be mentioned. Wishlists vs Search, Category Sort vs Search by Title or Recording History are features that are alike and it is those that I compare.

Most of those features are not very good or need to be fixed or removed. I don't like the HR20 series very much and I am hoping these things will be fixed. Three years is long enough. It didn't take TiVo that long to get it right.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

I just wish somebody could of given me this much information I have learned about the HR20 without having to buy one to do it. Now I am stuck on a 2 year commitment. Well, its the risks you take I guess!


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

NRC, it's the first post, no return to the thread, troll like nature of the post, not the content.

The 2 year commitment is, usually, clearly explained. It's a choice you make and I had no problem making it.

Scott D, I own 4 DirecTivo's and HR10 and 2 HR20's As I've said I have come to prefer the interface/usability of the HR20. There are aspects of the TIVO units which are clearly better but the real question is whether the HR20 good enough given the great new channels and for me the answer is definitely yes. Too many people seem to act as if there is some kind of other choice for the DTV HD channels. IF you accept that there is not then you have to decide if the HR20 is acceptable.

The revisionist history is rather common. TIVO had terrible problems in it's early years, for considerably more than 3 years, I think those times are forgotten. Even today the HR10 is having issues. This is not to bash the TIVO stuff which I love also, it's just to point out that it's the nature of the beast. I'd also rather have the system now with a few problems than wait another 12 months for a failed attempt at perfection.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

JohnB1000 said:


> NRC, it's the first post, no return to the thread, troll like nature of the post, not the content.
> 
> The 2 year commitment is, usually, clearly explained. It's a choice you make and I had no problem making it.
> 
> ...


Well, I respect your opinion. I also agree pertaining to the HR10 series TiVo that it has gone downhill simply because DirecTV had the intentions of ditching the TiVo. VOD seems to be the answer as to why they cut ties. I have said it before and I'll say it again. I am, by no means, demanding that the HR2x series be a TiVo. By no means am I even considering that. Let's look at it this way. You buy a car with a built in GPS system. In most cases, are you expecting to get the top of the line most sophisticated piece of electronics in a GPS at that time or would you find that in a portable GPS instead?

All I'm saying is this. DirecTV put together a DVR with lacking BASIC DVR functions. Hell, I can't even do a worthwhile category sort on that thing. Called them up and asked if the format had other styles. No. Right now, I'm stuck with it. If DirecTV is going to put a feature into it, make it useful, not stupid. Absolutely no planning of any sort went into the basic DVR features. The guide grid, for example, is ancient technology. Why are we still using it?

All I want is an all around, well designed DVR with the basic DVR functions well thought out. After that, they can add whatever they want but first they STILL need to fix the basics.

Oh, just a reminder. The software program works correctly so there really isn't any flaws in the program. It does exactly what it's programmed to do. The problem is, bad programming. Not much thought went into the design of the software.


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## Indiana627 (Jan 24, 2003)

Scott D said:


> And......
> 
> Where are the comparisons? Dual tuner and search features? What about that stuff? Have you checked out the recording history lately?
> 
> You got me on the new HD channels but what about the other stuff. Have you ever heard of comparing apples to oranges? It's like comparing cars to motorcycles. Totally unfair comparison. You're telling me a feature an HR20 can do that in which there is no way a TiVo can do. Two totally different functions.


The HR20 has dual tuners. It can record 2 things at once just like the HR10. Why do I need to look at recording history as my HR20 has never missed a show? If there are upcoming conflicts, they are listed plain as day in the To Do List. As far as your apples to oranges remark, isn't the function of any DVR to record TV shows for you? So how aren't the 2 machines both apples (or oranges)?



nrc said:


> Or perhaps the difference is bias from DirecTV lovers. Some folks will take what they're given and call it good because they're unwilling or unable to switch to a different programming provider.


I'd totally switch if the HR20 wasn't good. I'm a TV junkie and would not settle for anything that did do what I wanted it to do. I love all the HR20 bashers who have never even used one. I was hesitant when I got mine, but after a day or two, all those fears went away.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Indiana627 said:


> I'd totally switch if the HR20 wasn't good. I'm a TV junkie and would not settle for anything that did do what I wanted it to do. I love all the HR20 bashers who have never even used one. I was hesitant when I got mine, but after a day or two, all those fears went away.


I'm not bashing the HR20 anymore than the person who claimed that some users' bias was because they were TiVo lovers was bashing TiVo. It's the DirecTV lovers that can't accept that it's possible to have a legitimate preference for the features and functionality of TiVo. Why come into a TiVo forum an bash TiVo owners for preferring TiVo? Are these people so insecure in their chioces that they can't just go off and enjoy their DVR and leave others to theirs?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Indiana627 said:


> ...
> 
> I'd totally switch if the HR20 wasn't good. I'm a TV junkie and would not settle for anything that did do what I wanted it to do. I love all the HR20 bashers who have never even used one. I was hesitant when I got mine, but after a day or two, all those fears went away.


I always get a kick out of people like you remarking that we can't make an intelligent decision without trying the darn thing - and then I wonder how much of a kick-back you guys get from DirecTV because you know it can't be tried at home for even a few days - lol.

Actually, it's the HR20 owners where I got a lot of my information and made my decision, plus looking at demos, polls, and other information on the internet.

I've been involved in software development for years and it's quite clear to me that DTV rushed this product to market while doing very little market research of what was currently available and what consumers wanted in a dvr. Its quite clear they knew they would have a captive audience - i.e. no competition, so they could just create a product that 'gets by'.

A couple of examples - the Picture in Guide. There are of course people who love this feature and others who just hate it - I know I don't like it at all. The point is though that a feature of this magnitude should have an option for turning it off if the user doesn't want it. If they had done any kind of research, they would have come to the conclusion that people would either love it or hate it, so create a simple option that allows the user to decide, not the developer.

A second example - and there are lots and lots - is the 50 limit on the the Season Pass list. This again points out to me that DTV did very little research and/or set an artificial limit without realizing the ramifications. I'm sure programming wise and/or performance wise, they decided they had to do it - let's hope they just didn't pick a number out of the air. I've seen people argue for the limitation, but here again we find a new system being developed without thought to the long-term ramifications. Sometimes, you can't let programmers make the decision - after all, they are not the market for the box.

So, reading dbstalk daily for several weeks was enough for me to make an intelligent decision. (Now I'm biding my time to see what happens when the new owners take over.)

One day a couple of months ago, I bisected a thread on dbstalk. The OP stated that he was considering getting an HR20, but loved his Tivo and was wondering if the HR20 had settled down and how it compared to the Tivo. I believe the thread was around 4 pages by that time, so there were arround 80 entries or so. The interesting thing was when I counted up the responses, they mimicked several of the polls and said essentially what I had been reading for 3 or 4 months by that time - 
1. A few people actually thought it to be better then Tivo
2. About 1/3 thought it was worse
3. A large group said it was ok
4. The last group said it was the only game in town, so there was no choice

So the conclusion for me was easy at the time - I didn't feel the need to rush to the new hd channels - for 2 reasons - DirecTV did not offer some of the stations I was watching in HD, and many of the new hd channels were ones that I did not watch or was willing to watch in SD.

The conclusion I came to is that DirecTV created a second-tier dvr - not enough to lose business, but also not much to brag about. They chose instead to let the hd channels do the selling. And after all, content is the most important thing for many people, so they are willing to settle for second best (or don't know the difference).

The thing I have learned over the last few months is that there are a few people who believe the HR20 is better then Tivo, but that is a small number. The majority are in the categories of 'it's the only game in town' or 'I'll learn to live with it' while there is still around 40% feeling that it is inferior.

So, while the HR20 army can yell and shout, and chastise those of us who are not moving to the HR20, you are really in the minority of those thinking the HR20 is as good as or better then the Tivo. I've come to the conclusion that many folks are afraid they've made a bad decision and are now stuck with it for 2 years. My guess is that their hoping the quality of the HR20 will improve to a higher level by then - only time will tell.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

ScottD, you make some good points but I think, to use a bad analogy, that you are doing the equivalent of looking at a Mercedes and complaining that the Hyundai doesn't have all the same features, but both still get you from A/B. I've not heard anyone claim that HR2x is supposed to do those things and I really don't consider them to be lacking ANY basic DVR functions, just the bells and whistles. I continue to make no claims that HR2x is better than the TIVO units just that it's good enough to do the job and the only way to receive all those great new channels.

RS4, you gotta stop quoting that ridiculous and totally flawed poll stuff. I know a dozen or people with HR20's locally. Most of them did not have a DVR before, all are happy and none voted in that poll. TIVO lovers will not like HR2x in general, just like MErcedes owners don't like Hyndai's but for people like me who are only interested in getting from A-B I'm happy with the cheaper car and hence the available system.


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## boneskrw (Jan 28, 2006)

RS4 and others have mentioned they don't like the limit of 50 Season Passes on the HR20 vs. no limit on the Tivo. Am I missing something? Why would you need 50 Season Passes on a DVR that can store 30 hours of HD programming? Some of you must watch TV full-time.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

boneskrw said:


> RS4 and others have mentioned they don't like the limit of 50 Season Passes on the HR20 vs. no limit on the Tivo. Am I missing something? Why would you need 50 Season Passes on a DVR that can store 30 hours of HD programming? Some of you must watch TV full-time.


It can record 50 hours of MPEG4

50+ season passes doesn't mean they are all recording at the same time. For example my Closer season pass recently picked up the Christmas episode that I didn't know was even on. Having all the passes is kind of the point.

50 passes is a limit that doesn't bother me and I'm OK with managing them but it is clearly a problem for some.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

boneskrw said:


> RS4 and others have mentioned they don't like the limit of 50 Season Passes on the HR20 vs. no limit on the Tivo. Am I missing something? Why would you need 50 Season Passes on a DVR that can store 30 hours of HD programming? Some of you must watch TV full-time.


some disabled people dont have much more in their lives. Sure would be nice if they did but we all dont have that luxury

and i have approaching 200 sp over 3 machines so yes, you can easily have stuff from previous seasons that wont show up until next year.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

JohnB1000 said:


> ...
> 
> RS4, you gotta stop quoting that ridiculous and totally flawed poll stuff. I know a dozen or people with HR20's locally. Most of them did not have a DVR before, all are happy and none voted in that poll. TIVO lovers will not like HR2x in general, just like MErcedes owners don't like Hyndai's but for people like me who are only interested in getting from A-B I'm happy with the cheaper car and hence the available system.


Hey John, I got news for ya - this is not the dbstalk forum, even though others treat it that way - this is a Tivo forum and I was writing about Tivo users.

If those people have never owned, tried, or seen a Tivo, then they don't know what they are missing - they're getting second best by default.

You had the best, now you're making excuses for why a company can offer you second best and you jump at the chance to defend them - but most of the others who had the best know they are being cheated and don't like it - look at how many of them say they would jump to an mep4 Tivo if DirecTV offered one!! Yes, you may like the HR20 better, but the majority of Tivo owners don't.


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## boneskrw (Jan 28, 2006)

OK, so for some, 50 is not enough season passes. Wonder what they did when they had VCR's?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Scott D said:


> I don't like the HR20 series very much and I am hoping these things will be fixed. Three years is long enough. It didn't take TiVo that long to get it right.


So how long did it take Tivo? Didn't they first start shipping in the mid to late 90's?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Scott D said:


> Most of those features are not very good or need to be fixed or removed. I don't like the HR20 series very much and I am hoping these things will be fixed. Three years is long enough. It didn't take TiVo that long to get it right.


Umm... the HR20 has only be available for about 18 months..
The R15, is just a hair over 2 years.

So neither has been available for three years yet.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

boneskrw said:


> RS4 and others have mentioned they don't like the limit of 50 Season Passes on the HR20 vs. no limit on the Tivo. Am I missing something? Why would you need 50 Season Passes on a DVR that can store 30 hours of HD programming? Some of you must watch TV full-time.


It sounds to me like you barely use the dvr. I on the other hand watch very little live tv - even sports (why waste your time during half times, injury time outs, and commercials?). So, I may go through the movies and set up 8 or 10 at a time, or I'll add some of the suggestions the Tivo finds, or I just pick a channel and set SP's for some new shows, and then preview them when I get time.

In case you aren't aware, your HR20 can have hard drives added so that you can have bizillons of shows out there to look at when you want.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Umm... the HR20 has only be available for about 18 months..
> The R15, is just a hair over 2 years.
> 
> So neither has been available for three years yet.


But of course dvrs have been out for several years and it's quite clear that DirecTV hasn't bothered to find out how they are used, or they wouldn't have made some of the stupid mistakes they did. After all, DirecTV is not in the dvr business, they only have the thing as an after thought.


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## dlowings (Jan 23, 2004)

Ok I have to say, I have been a tivo fan for years and have recommended tivo to a ton of people. However after what I was faced with yesterday I have to say, tivo has turned down a dark path. I have two S2 tivos and have had them for 5 plus years. I picked up a non working S2 tivo at a junk sale a week or so back and brought it home and fixed it up. Then came the part that truly pushed me over the edge. I logged into my tivo web site to activate it and found that I could not activate it under my ORIGINAL tivo agreement. when I signed up 5 years ago the first tivo sub was like 12 dollars a month and then any additional sub added to THAT account was 6 dollars per tivo. so im thinking hey I'll add one more tivo to my kids room and 24 dollars a month for three tivos isn't that bad. WRONG, the people in marketing have turned on long time subscribers. The want to charge me 10 bucks for adding a USED tivo to my network and LOCK me into a 1 year contract. I'm sick of these contracts, and I think the rest of us are sick of them as well!! I will NEVER activate or recommend Tivo service to another friend again. I understand locking a person into a 1 year commitment on NEW equipment, I understand that new equipment is sold at below COST, I GET THAT PART.... However that is the FIRST TIME buyers responsibility to pay that cost. If this is the best that the marketing department can come up with then FINE. like I said I will never activate another tivo or recommend the service until I see TIVO changes, that includes getting rid of current marketing directors.

Now let me tell you THE real reason companies use the business model of locking people into contracts.... It has little to do with EQUIPMENT !!! It has to do with ACCOUNTING and share holders.... See if a company can show they have X amount of subs for Y amount of time the the share price goes up... What does that do for me the SUB holder , NOTHING. All it does is take away my right to shop around for a better service.... Think about it... all these new business models of bundling and X year commitment contracts take away your right to make the market more competitive. Tivo was a small grass roots company that was doing fine, the sub base was growing. I'm saddened to see that big business has stepped in to ruin a once outstanding product!:down:


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## dlowings (Jan 23, 2004)

Ok I have to say, I have been a tivo fan for years and have recommended tivo to a ton of people. However after what I was faced with yesterday I have to say, tivo has turned down a dark path. I have two S2 tivos and have had them for 5 plus years. I picked up a non working S2 tivo at a junk sale a week or so back and brought it home and fixed it up. Then came the part that truly pushed me over the edge. I logged into my tivo web site to activate it and found that I could not activate it under my ORIGINAL tivo agreement. when I signed up 5 years ago the first tivo sub was like 12 dollars a month and then any additional sub added to THAT account was 6 dollars per tivo. so im thinking hey I'll add one more tivo to my kids room and 24 dollars a month for three tivos isn't that bad. WRONG, the people in marketing have turned on long time subscribers. The want to charge me 10 bucks for adding a USED tivo to my network and LOCK me into a 1 year contract. I'm sick of these contracts, and I think the rest of us are sick of them as well!! I will NEVER activate or recommend Tivo service to another friend again. I understand locking a person into a 1 year commitment on NEW equipment, I understand that new equipment is sold at below COST, I GET THAT PART.... However that is the FIRST TIME buyers responsibility to pay that cost. If this is the best that the marketing department can come up with then FINE. like I said I will never activate another tivo or recommend the service until I see TIVO changes, that includes getting rid of current marketing directors.

Now let me tell you THE real reason companies use the business model of locking people into contracts.... It has little to do with EQUIPMENT !!! It has to do with ACCOUNTING and share holders.... See if a company can show they have X amount of subs for Y amount of time the the share price goes up... What does that do for me the SUB holder , NOTHING. All it does is take away my right to shop around for a better service.... Think about it... all these new business models of bundling and X year commitment contracts take away your right to make the market more competitive. Tivo was a small grass roots company that was doing fine, the sub base was growing. I'm saddened to see that big business has stepped in to ruin a once outstanding product!:down:


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> But of course dvrs have been out for several years and it's quite clear that DirecTV hasn't bothered to find out how they are used, or they wouldn't have made some of the stupid mistakes they did. After all, DirecTV is not in the dvr business, they only have the thing as an after thought.


And AT&T is just a phone company...
Companies grown, and add to their portfollio.


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## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

Several other features of TiVo (S3) that nobody has mentioned:

You can set it to add extra time to live sporting events that you record. 

You can set it to resolve a conflict when a show overlaps another by 5 minutes or less. It will automatically truncate the lower priority show. This feature is user selectable.

Yes you can make a DVD with a DVD recorder but you tie up your machine while you do it. Much better to transfer the show to your computer in the background and burn a DVD in a few minutes. There is software to delete commercials. You can transfer to a portable player. 

And don't forget OTA (read the threads on DBStalk to see the bruhaha that removing it from the HR21 has caused.)


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> And AT&T is just a phone company...
> Companies grown, and add to their portfollio.


maybe that's why Directv bought Replay. They wanted some engineers that were in the dvr business...


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

HazelW said:


> Several other features of TiVo (S3) that nobody has mentioned:
> You can set it to add extra time to live sporting events that you record.


I'm pretty sure the HR20 can do this too.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> And AT&T is just a phone company...
> Companies grown, and add to their portfollio.


I'm not quite sure what AT&T has to do with this. DirecTV has been in the video business for several years now. They have sold or allowed dvrs to be attached to their systems for several years now. A few years ago, they apparently decided to make the dvrs themselves and get rid of the 'competition'.

You would think that a company that is taking over a segment of the market place would try to understand what the current products are in that market place and how they are being used. However, in this case, it is obvious that DirecTV did not bother to do that. Instead we find features the competitors have missing, not working, or with other limitations. Again, the motive of DirecTV is obvious - do as little as possible to grab another hunk of business without losing a swarm of customers and lock the current customers in so that you've got a few years to figure out how little you really need to do to keep the majority of customers from abandoning ship.

And people call this vendor customer oriented? We now have a company that used to be highly thought of, but now doing as little as possible to get by in the market place, and you guys making all kinds of excuses for the poor quality and the lack of a clearly planned out box with all sorts of limitations.:down:

It's one thing to take over a market segment and keep up with the competition. In this case, we see a company developing a product that is a good-enough excuse to lock in their customers and not lose a whole lot of existing customers. Keep making the excuses all you want. It won't cover up the fact that DirecTV did a lousy job of getting a new box to market. My guess is that the 2-year commitment has kept a lot of customers for them. We all know a lot of people would have returned that product immediately - even now - if they had an alternative product to use.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

I love how you continue to use the 2 year commitment thing to try and prove your points. When that 2 year commitment was there before either the R15 or the HR20 was even available yet...

It has ZERO to do with the quality of the products...

As with the 2 year commitment there is an out...you can buy your self out of yoru commitment... which is cheaper then keeping it for the two years... for something you are not happy with.

Oh... and by the way... that 2 year commitment is starting to end for the R15 subscribers... so let's see the numbers in January and Q2, to see if there is a mass exidous...

And then in Q3 and Q4 2008, and see if there is a mass exidous on HR20 side of things.

I am glad that you have DirecTV all figured out, so you as a consumer can make your choice on which way you wan to go.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I'm not quite sure what AT&T has to do with this.


Maybe a new product called Uverse? Fiber internet access, fiber televsion and dvr's. AT&T's version of FIOS - they are a player now.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

boneskrw said:


> OK, so for some, 50 is not enough season passes. Wonder what they did when they had VCR's?


Gosh, I don't know, forced to sit through stuff they didn't want to see? Course, I haven't done that for years now. Have you heard about air-conditioning? It keeps your house cool. You seem to be a little behind on the technology so I thought I would help you out


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

boy i still feel bad for seannn getting screwed. isnt that what this thread is all about anyway?


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

JohnB1000 said:


> ScottD, you make some good points but I think, to use a bad analogy, that you are doing the equivalent of looking at a Mercedes and complaining that the Hyundai doesn't have all the same features, but both still get you from A/B. I've not heard anyone claim that HR2x is supposed to do those things and I really don't consider them to be lacking ANY basic DVR functions, just the bells and whistles. I continue to make no claims that HR2x is better than the TIVO units just that it's good enough to do the job and the only way to receive all those great new channels.
> 
> RS4, you gotta stop quoting that ridiculous and totally flawed poll stuff. I know a dozen or people with HR20's locally. Most of them did not have a DVR before, all are happy and none voted in that poll. TIVO lovers will not like HR2x in general, just like MErcedes owners don't like Hyndai's but for people like me who are only interested in getting from A-B I'm happy with the cheaper car and hence the available system.


Really! Tell you what. I wouldn't dream of building A DVR like the way DirecTV did even if I never heard of a DVR before or owned a TiVo or heard the name TiVo. The HR20 is nothing more than stupid, not thought out, hurry up and sell it DVR and let's put a 2 year contract on it because it's a bad design. Maybe I should send you my analysis. I compared exact same features point by point and concluded that the HR20 was thrown together.

If you like the HR20, that's fine. If it suits your needs, they made a good machine. To me, the HR20 needs a lot of work......still.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

RS4 said:


> I'm not quite sure what AT&T has to do with this. DirecTV has been in the video business for several years now. They have sold or allowed dvrs to be attached to their systems for several years now. A few years ago, they apparently decided to make the dvrs themselves and get rid of the 'competition'.
> 
> You would think that a company that is taking over a segment of the market place would try to understand what the current products are in that market place and how they are being used. However, in this case, it is obvious that DirecTV did not bother to do that. Instead we find features the competitors have missing, not working, or with other limitations. Again, the motive of DirecTV is obvious - do as little as possible to grab another hunk of business without losing a swarm of customers and lock the current customers in so that you've got a few years to figure out how little you really need to do to keep the majority of customers from abandoning ship.
> 
> ...


I understand your thoughts but I'm not sure Directv had the same goals you seem to think they should have had. They were not trying to "take over a market segment" as you said. Nor were they trying to release a Dvr that would beat every other dvr out there. Nor (I doubt) was there ever any goal to offer every feature that was previously offered.

All they needed to do was produce a dvr that would satisfy most customers and get it to market as soon as possible. I believe they did that. Now that they have a dvr that can record mpeg4 and see the new satellites they can upgrade it as fast or as slow as they see a need to do so. Let's be clear here, the number of customers that will sign up with a provider based on their dvr offering is so small as to be irrelevent today.

Tivo is in the business of selling dvr's, Directv is not. Tivo has to add feature after feature to their dvr's to generate sales. Directv does not. Directv appears to have done exactly what they needed to do with the HR20. The majority of Directv's customers are satisfied with it. Even some of the previous Tivo users. Directv is not paying Tivo a monthly fee so they are happy. Everyone seems to be happy except a few Tivo lovers that would not have been happy with anything Directv produced that wasn't a Tivo no matter how good it was. You being a perfect example.

When you own the company and have to explain delays to shareholders you can hold up a product release until you are 100% sure it is bug free and beats all the competition at everything it does. I doubt you will own the company for long though if that is how you run it.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Scott D said:


> Really! Tell you what. I wouldn't dream of building A DVR like the way DirecTV did even if I never heard of a DVR before or owned a TiVo or heard the name TiVo. The HR20 is nothing more than stupid, not thought out, hurry up and sell it DVR and let's put a 2 year contract on it because it's a bad design. Maybe I should send you my analysis. I compared exact same features point by point and concluded that the HR20 was thrown together.


I would love to see that analysis of how you would build your first DVR...
From the ground up, without infringing on existing patents... and meet the goals of your company for the future options.

And in the same time... getting it done in the time frame it had to be done in... at a cost level that it would make it a practial option.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> I love how you continue to use the 2 year commitment thing to try and prove your points. When that 2 year commitment was there before either the R15 or the HR20 was even available yet...
> 
> It has ZERO to do with the quality of the products...
> 
> ...


How many people do you think would have kept (or would keep today) the HR20 if they had a DTivo to use? Less then half is my guess. Now if you want to call that innovation and market leader - go ahead. I call it a greedy company doing as little as possible to buy another segment of the market.

You guys are always making excuses for a second-rate box when you know that most people would abandon ship if they could.

I've been reading for months now about a new single wire connection for the new boxes. How is that coming? I haven't seen it released to the market yet. In fact, I saw a remark on another site that DTV was having the thing tested by you guys and his speculation was that this again was slowing down getting the product to market. Sounds to me that DTV is yet again trying to do something on the cheap instead of doing it right.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Umm... the HR20 has only be available for about 18 months..
> The R15, is just a hair over 2 years.
> 
> So neither has been available for three years yet.


Still, how come they still do the same thing? Not interested in the bells and whistles just yet. How come the basic DVR features has not been changed? I know they have to start somewhere. The only thing I heard them fixing is what they put in the DVR already. That way their features DirecTV wants won't lock up or something.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

RS4 said:


> You guys are always making excuses for a second-rate box when you know that most people would abandon ship if they could.


I don't think "most" would abandon it if they could. It is certainly no worse than the generic box offered by cable companies and yet very few have abandoned them for real Tivo's. So why would you assume that most Directv users would abandon it if they could?

The simple truth it that most people have lower dvr expectations than you do. There is nothing wrong with a company catering to the masses instead of the few if they can make more money that way. It doesn't make them a bad company or a greedy company, just a profitable one.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Scott D said:


> Still, how come they still do the same thing? Not interested in the bells and whistles just yet. How come the basic DVR features has not been changed? I know they have to start somewhere. The only thing I heard them fixing is what they put in the DVR already. That way their features DirecTV wants won't lock up or something.


I am not sure what you are talking about.

Have you even been paying attention to what has been added to the HR20 DVR this year?

The HR20 that was there on 12/19/2006 is a shadown of what the HR20 is today. Just from a new feature set of things added... let alone enhancements to existing feature.... and correcting the things that had issues.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> How many people do you think would have kept (or would keep today) the HR20 if they had a DTivo to use? Less then half is my guess. Now if you want to call that innovation and market leader - go ahead. I call it a greedy company doing as little as possible to buy another segment of the market.
> 
> You guys are always making excuses for a second-rate box when you know that most people would abandon ship if they could.
> 
> I've been reading for months now about a new single wire connection for the new boxes. How is that coming? I haven't seen it released to the market yet. In fact, I saw a remark on another site that DTV was having the thing tested by you guys and his speculation was that this again was slowing down getting the product to market. Sounds to me that DTV is yet again trying to do something on the cheap instead of doing it right.


How many would have kept the DVR+: The far vast majority of them. IMHO, but we will never know. You keep claiming that if you have used a TiVo... you will know.

I have used TiVo and bet I know it better then even you do.... I know EXACTLY what the DTiVo platform can and can't do.... As do a LOT of other users that still use the HR20 because they want to.

The 2year commitment is to programming, and has ZERO to do with the equipment you use.... you can shut off every non-TiVo box... and shut your programming down to family package... and still complete your commitment...

With TiVo prices beeing sub $100 (even for the HR10-250)... that is a viable option, and cheaper too then buying out your contract... for anyone that didn't want to deal with the as-you put it.... substandard DVR+ platform.

----------
As for SWM, it is actually working extremely well.

4 test markets have it wide spread distribution... MDU's are slated to start receiving their MFH upgrades in the next month.

Working pretty good actually.

The testing that was being done by the field trial users at DBSTalk, have had significant impact in the SWM distribution... but not in a negative fashion.
So not sure what site you saw that our testing has impacted the SWM process negatively, because it is anything but the truth.

At the long term testing that has been done on the product... is anything short of being "cheap"... and it is doing it right. Changing the fundemental method of getting the signal from the Dish to the Box is not a trival exercise.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

RS4 said:


> How many people do you think would have kept (or would keep today) the HR20 if they had a DTivo to use? Less then half is my guess. Now if you want to call that innovation and market leader - go ahead. I call it a greedy company doing as little as possible to buy another segment of the market.
> 
> You guys are always making excuses for a second-rate box when you know that most people would abandon ship if they could.
> 
> I've been reading for months now about a new single wire connection for the new boxes. How is that coming? I haven't seen it released to the market yet. In fact, I saw a remark on another site that DTV was having the thing tested by you guys and his speculation was that this again was slowing down getting the product to market. Sounds to me that DTV is yet again trying to do something on the cheap instead of doing it right.


Your guess is likely wrong. I'm going to say it again so everyone can see what you are really all about... You've never even touched the HR20. Your opinion is worthless. You spout on and on about how it's second rate. According to who? Not me.

In my educated opinion (yes, unlike you, I've used both extensively), the HR20 is better - significantly better - than TiVo. The UI is cleaner and more useful, it's much faster, it's far more reliable and it does everything a DVR should do. As was noted above, you seem to love to reference a useless poll for all of your information.

You and others wonder why us HR20 users come and comment here so I'll tell you why... At least for me, I get tired of seeing people like RS4 commenting on something they have never touched, and spreading disinformation to folks looking for something objective. That's why I come here. It's fine if you prefer the TiVo interface. That's an opinion and everyone is entitled to one. However, you make comments like 'second rated DVR' as though they're fact. They're not facts. They are your opinion - and an uneducated one at that.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> How many people do you think would have kept (or would keep today) the HR20 if they had a DTivo to use? Less then half is my guess. Now if you want to call that innovation and market leader - go ahead. I call it a greedy company doing as little as possible to buy another segment of the market.
> 
> You guys are always making excuses for a second-rate box when you know that most people would abandon ship if they could.
> 
> I've been reading for months now about a new single wire connection for the new boxes. How is that coming? I haven't seen it released to the market yet. In fact, I saw a remark on another site that DTV was having the thing tested by you guys and his speculation was that this again was slowing down getting the product to market. Sounds to me that DTV is yet again trying to do something on the cheap instead of doing it right.


depends - those that want new content would be the hr20, those that like windows 3.0 style gui and no new content would be the hr10.As far as SWM goes - never did any design or testing of a complex electronic device have you?

Again second rate is a opinion that is normally drawn from knowledge of the devices that are in the equation - my opinion is the hr20 is not second rate - and I have both the HR10 AND the HR20.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

That's funny RS4. One moment you complain that released the HR20 too early and untested and no you're complaning they are taking too long to test the single wire solution. Once gain your good point - if a TIVO system was available I would probably choose it - is destroyed by your dumb hyperbole.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> I don't think "most" would abandon it if they could. It is certainly no worse than the generic box offered by cable companies and yet very few have abandoned them for real Tivo's. So why would you assume that most Directv users would abandon it if they could?
> 
> The simple truth it that most people have lower dvr expectations than you do. There is nothing wrong with a company catering to the masses instead of the few if they can make more money that way. It doesn't make them a bad company or a greedy company, just a profitable one.


For once, I actually agree with a lot of what you said. I was referring to "most" Tivo users when I made my remark. And, if you read my earlier comments then you would know that I said the normal customer doesn't know any better because they don't know or haven't seen a Tivo.

You tell me what it is if it isn't greed? Why wouldn't they come out with their own box, but still leave an avenue for Tivo is they really had the customer in mind? They could always package an agreement with Tivo where both companies benefit. Then the customer could have a real choice. Tivo has their own HD box, all they need is the license to get the signal from DireCTV. Then those of us wishing to stay with Tivo could do that and the masses could go with the generic dvr.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

JohnB1000 said:


> That's funny RS4. One moment you complain that released the HR20 too early and untested and no you're complaning they are taking too long to test the single wire solution. Once gain your good point - if a TIVO system was available I would probably choose it - is destroyed by your dumb hyperbole.


I'm merely pointing out that DirecTV takes the cheap way out, John. According to what I read, they have not hired a professional company with the testing and development of the single wire solution. Read cheap in that, John. Read a company that doesn't really care about the customer, John. Read greed into that, John. That's where the message is going.

As far as I can tell, the only thing DirecTV is doing is trying to lead the video industry into the 2-yr product scam by employing those stupid commitments.
There model is to charge you hundreds up front, unless you twist and turn and suck your thumb the right way, then they'll only charge you $480 if you don't like the second-rate box. Oh yeah - that is really a customer-centered company all right


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## narrod (Nov 23, 2002)

RS4 said:


> I'm merely pointing out that DirecTV takes the cheap way out, John. According to what I read, they have not hired a professional company with the testing and development of the single wire solution. Read cheap in that, John. Read a company that doesn't really care about the customer, John. Read greed into that, John. That's where the message is going.
> 
> As far as I can tell, the only thing DirecTV is doing is trying to lead the video industry into the 2-yr product scam by employing those stupid commitments.
> There model is to charge you hundreds up front, unless you twist and turn and suck your thumb the right way, then they'll only charge you $480 if you don't like the second-rate box. Oh yeah - that is really a customer-centered company all right


A reasonable person would not do business with a company they hold in such contempt. May we assume you have switched to cable, FIOS or u-serve? DirecTv has lots of failings but I don't see a better solution than DirecTv and the HR-20.


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## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

badmonkey said:


> You and others wonder why us HR20 users come and comment here so I'll tell you why... At least for me, I get tired of seeing people like RS4 commenting on something they have never touched, and spreading disinformation to folks looking for something objective. That's why I come here. It's fine if you prefer the TiVo interface. That's an opinion and everyone is entitled to one. However, you make comments like 'second rated DVR' as though they're fact. They're not facts. They are your opinion - and an uneducated one at that.


Anyone can easily go to the DBSforums and read plenty of negative comments on the HR20/21. There are a handful of people that rave about how great it is (Directv evangilists?), but for the most part the comments range from mild disappointment from people that have no other choice to outright disgust.

Also, don't compare the Direct TiVo to the HR20/21. Compare the Series 3. D* has inhibited the growth of the TiVo platform for satellite.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

HazelW said:


> Anyone can easily go to the DBSforums and read plenty of negative comments on the HR20/21. There are a handful of people that rave about how great it is (Directv evangilists?), but for the most part the comments range from mild disappointment from people that have no other choice to outright disgust.
> 
> Also, don't compare the Direct TiVo to the HR20/21. Compare the Series 3. D* has inhibited the growth of the TiVo platform for satellite.


That is untrue... If you really look at the pulse of things at dbstalk.com, you'll find that the vast majority are perfectly happy with their HR20s. There is still some angst with the HR21s, but that will diminish as the code base for that model comes up to current. Also keep in mind that most people only post in forums like these when they are having a problem and are looking for a solution. You don't often find someone 'stopping by' to say all is well.

I'm not evangelizing for the 'Plus' DVRs. I'm merely pointing out that most people are happy with them and many have come to prefer them. Change is always hard. I wasn't happy about having to change at first, but I'm glad I did.

And to your point about comparing the HR series to the TiVo S3's... that's not a realistic comparison since the S3 was never designed to work with satellite. Besides, unless things have changed dramatically, the S3 is nothing to jump up and down about. There was quite a significant number of disappointed S3 owners...


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## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

badmonkey said:


> And to your point about comparing the HR series to the TiVo S3's... that's not a realistic comparison since the S3 was never designed to work with satellite. Besides, unless things have changed dramatically, the S3 is nothing to jump up and down about. There was quite a significant number of disappointed S3 owners...


My point was that the HR-10 is practically dead. Many of us have the choice between Directv with the HR20/21 or Cable/FIOS with the TiVo series 3/HD. I think that is what the comparison should be. If you are stuck with directv then you have no choice but to go to the HR20/21. And I know lots of people who have switched and have not found one disappointed S3 owner. Where did you get that idea? OTA, DLB, superior guide, reliability, intuitive, TiVo to go, etc. etc.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

HazelW that's just not a valid comparison at all. In this DirecTV forum we're comparing one DirecTV system to another. TIVO can do everything they want with a standalone system but try having it record HDTV from DirecTV  The reason most people go with the HR2x is to get all those DirecTV HD channels.


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## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

JohnB, I agree. If you want a HD Directv DVR, the HR20/21 is your only choice. I struggeld for 6 months on whether to get one to replace my HR10-250 and finally decided to leave Directv altogether. For years they lagged behing everyone else in HD content, but now have jumped ahead. I don't think their competitors are going to lie still and let them win. And their recent decision to stop providing OTA was a major mistake on their part.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

HazelW said:


> My point was that the HR-10 is practically dead. Many of us have the choice between Directv with the HR20/21 or Cable/FIOS with the TiVo series 3/HD. I think that is what the comparison should be. If you are stuck with directv then you have no choice but to go to the HR20/21. And I know lots of people who have switched and have not found one disappointed S3 owner. Where did you get that idea? OTA, DLB, superior guide, reliability, intuitive, TiVo to go, etc. etc.


Admittedly, most of the basis for the disappointed users comment was from several months back, but a quick glance through the S3 forum here still shows more than a handful of problems with the unit.

And your last sentence really isn't a good argument. Here's why...

OTA - HR20 has internally, HR21 lacks, but DirecTV claims there is s solution forthcoming. Let's reserve judgement on the topic until we see what happens with the HR21.

DLB - You got me there... That's the one feature (stress feature) that I wish the HR20/21 had. I've gotten over it, though, with the record workaround.

Superior guide - Your opinion. I never used the TiVo style guide on any of my TiVo's and definitely prefer the grid style guide of the HR20. Just my opinion on a very subjective item.

Reliability - Can't give you that one. My HR10 was WAY less reliable than my, to date perfect, HR20's. I used to have to babysit my HR10s to make sure they were doing what they were supposed to. No such thing with my HR20's.

Intuitive - Again, your opinion. I actually prefer the UI of the HR20 and find that it makes more sense and is easier and quicker to navigate. Again, just my opinion on a very subjective item.

TiVo To Go - Another win for TiVo but a feature I couldn't care less about. But, like DLB, it would always be nice to have it as an option.

But there are several things that the HR20 does that the TiVo's can't. None of them make for a good, objective argument, though. They are all quite subjective features that some will like and some will not.

Again, I'm just saying that if we use objective comparisons, 'Plus' DVR's are, at the very least, on par with TiVo. In my subjective opinion, they are superior.


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## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

badmonkey, your points are certainly valid. I have never used an HR20 so I can't comment personally. But I did do a LOT of reading and research from the time it first came out. The negative rants have certainly decreased in that time, but there are still people who hate it. You have to read between the lines. for example, many comment that the HT20 is faster than the TiVo. but when you read more you find out that is not really true. I guess the basic GUI is faster in that you never get the "please wait", but I just read on another post that it takes 5 seconds or so to bring up the miniguide. Now that is slow. Also, things are done in the background and your requests may not make it to the to do list before the show starts. Lots of complaints about slow motion, fast forward, skip to tick, etc. Maybe they have been fixed by now. You can't edit the channels you receive. If you lose power and the box reboots you lose the guide and your to do list until it reloads. These are somne of the reasons I chose not to go the HR20 route. 

But I think you make an excellent point that it really amount to your personal preferences. I have always hated a grid style guide and you love it. To each his own. If you have only one provider, you have to accept what they provide. I am fortunate to have 4 choices--and it was not an easy choice either since I have been with Directv since 1994.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Originally customers could "get out" of the penalties for breaking a 2 year commitment by simply returning any recently obtained equipment.

A somewhat recent change in the agreement allows DTV to get the equipment back and charge a penalty.

It's not "industry standard" to charge customers a fee for equipment and demand the return of equipment and a penalty when the customers cancel.

I'll agree with your other points, I don't think very many customers cancel because the new unit isn't a tivo *BUT* the generic DVR DTV is selling doesn't give a customer any reason to use DTV vs FiOS or digital cable.



ebonovic said:


> I love how you continue to use the 2 year commitment thing to try and prove your points. When that 2 year commitment was there before either the R15 or the HR20 was even available yet...
> 
> It has ZERO to do with the quality of the products...
> 
> ...


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

JohnB1000 said:


> HazelW that's just not a valid comparison at all. In this DirecTV forum we're comparing one DirecTV system to another. TIVO can do everything they want with a standalone system but try having it record HDTV from DirecTV  The reason most people go with the HR2x is to get all those DirecTV HD channels.


This isn't a DirecTV forum, it's a TiVo forum. For anyone who has a cable option the TiVO HD or S3 are a valid comparison.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

lew said:


> I'll agree with your other points, I don't think very many customers cancel because the new unit isn't a tivo *BUT* the generic DVR DTV is selling doesn't give a customer any reason to use DTV vs FiOS or digital cable.


IMHO... that is EXACTLY how it should be.
The primary focus on your choice of carrier should be CONTENT...

Then followed by the technology to receive that CONTENT

Follwed by the extras

All are part of the equation... but what means the most to a customer, is different for everyone.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

nrc said:


> This isn't a DirecTV forum, it's a TiVo forum. For anyone who has a cable option the TiVO HD or S3 are a valid comparison.


Interesting that the title of the forum would include the words "*DirecTV* HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs" and of course you know that the rules allow discussion of other DirecTV. The good arguments you and others make are always undone by these silly kind of reactions.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

RS4 said:


> Why wouldn't they come out with their own box, but still leave an avenue for Tivo is they really had the customer in mind?


What company do you know of that sits around trying to figure out ways to be nice to the customer? That isn't their goal. Maximizing profit is their goal.

Many people have asked why they don't allow Tivo to make an mpeg4 dvr. What makes you think Tivo wants to make an mpeg4 DVR? How many would Tivo sell against Directv offering HR20 upgrades for free? Tivo would have to handle the entire development burden only to sell a handful. Tivo would lose money on the deal. And how is Tivo suppose to recoup their money on the deal? Charge you $10 extra on top of what Directv charges each month? There go another 10,000 subscribers that might have bought it.


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## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

ebonovic said:


> IMHO... that is EXACTLY how it should be.
> The primary focus on your choice of carrier should be CONTENT...
> 
> Then followed by the technology to receive that CONTENT
> ...


But not everyone uses the same criteria. And where do you put "quality" of the signal. That was number one reason for choosing directv over cable 12 years ago. But my current FIOS has much superior quality to Directv's overly compressed picture. It is especially noticable on some of the SD channels.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

With the exception of the NFL digital cable, FiOS, DTV and Dish all have similar program offerings. Locals, RSN, HBO are about the same. Content is similar. A few years ago DTV was the only one offering a DVR. Now everyone is offering a DVR and DTV went from having a tvio to a unit that isn't any different then the offerings of others.

I suspect phone/internet/video bundles will be more responsible for lost business then tivo BUT I wonder if DTV lost an opportunity to differentiate itself from the others.

For many of us FiOS and digital cable offer similar content, better picture quality, similar DVRs (for free) with the ability to pay for tivo *and better pricing.* I don't think tivo is the main reason very many people leave DTV.

*I see you chose not to respond to the rest of my post. The 2 year commitment is new. Previously a customer could just return the units and not pay a penalty.*



ebonovic said:


> IMHO... that is EXACTLY how it should be.
> The primary focus on your choice of carrier should be CONTENT...
> 
> Then followed by the technology to receive that CONTENT
> ...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

HazelW said:


> But not everyone uses the same criteria. And where do you put "quality" of the signal. That was number one reason for choosing directv over cable 12 years ago. But my current FIOS has much superior quality to Directv's overly compressed picture. It is especially noticable on some of the SD channels.


Umm... "quality" of the signal would go right in there with the CONTENT.
Since FIOS isn't an option for me... it's not in my equation.

Every individual has their own "rankings" of what is important to them, to help them choose their carrier.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

lew said:


> With the exception of the NFL digital cable, FiOS, DTV and Dish all have similar program offerings. Locals, RSN, HBO are about the same. Content is similar. A few years ago DTV was the only one offering a DVR. Now everyone is offering a DVR and DTV went from having a tvio to a unit that isn't any different then the offerings of others.
> 
> I suspect phone/internet/video bundles will be more responsible for lost business then tivo BUT I wonder if DTV lost an opportunity to differentiate itself from the others.
> 
> ...


IIRC: The returning of the equipment, coincided with the units becoming LEASED instead of owned.
So it isn't "new" as of late.

So the time is near that COMCAST will have TiVo... lets see if TiVo attracks the numbers... and if the "TiVo" factor, is really a factor at all.

Define "many" of us for the FIOS argument. Fios is only in a fraction of the markets out there... It probably won't be here in Chicago let alone the burbs of Chicago any time in the near future.

Digital Cable Here... I would easily say it's quality is no better then DirecTV's, and in some cases even worse.

And for my suburb. As close as I can get the packages to match... COMCAST would cost me more... But that is one of the biggest problems with comparing the two... each city... even cities only 15 miles apart, can have diffrent pricing an options with the Cable-Co's.

As for the COST of a TiVo unit for FiOS and Cable-Co... there are monthly services costs that go into that as well... so unless you are pre-paying for three years (Which within itself is a "commitment")... you are spending a good amount for that service fee as well.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Leased vs owned is nothing more then a change in bookeeping. The upfront cost to the customer remained the same and the monthly fee also remained the same. DTV just changed what they called the fees. Instead of a mirror fee customers are charged a lease fee. The cancellation fee wasn't applicable during the time period you claimed it was.

I basically agree with the rest of your post. I don't think that many customers will pay a significant premium for tivo nor do I think the primary reason customers are leaving DTV is tivo.

I'm gone in a week. FiOS is less per month, assuming I go with Verizon's DVR or about the same as DTV if I purchase a tivo. Actually I'm comparing apples and oranges, I don't have HD with tivo so I'm saving even more.



ebonovic said:


> IIRC: The returning of the equipment, coincided with the units becoming LEASED instead of owned.
> So it isn't "new" as of late.
> 
> So the time is near that COMCAST will have TiVo... lets see if TiVo attracks the numbers... and if the "TiVo" factor, is really a factor at all.
> ...


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> What company do you know of that sits around trying to figure out ways to be nice to the customer? That isn't their goal. Maximizing profit is their goal.
> 
> Many people have asked why they don't allow Tivo to make an mpeg4 dvr. What makes you think Tivo wants to make an mpeg4 DVR? How many would Tivo sell against Directv offering HR20 upgrades for free? Tivo would have to handle the entire development burden only to sell a handful. Tivo would lose money on the deal. And how is Tivo suppose to recoup their money on the deal? Charge you $10 extra on top of what Directv charges each month? There go another 10,000 subscribers that might have bought it.


Umm..let me see - oh yeah, I think Tivo is doing this with about a million other customers, so tell me again why they couldn't do it with DirecTV?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> Umm..let me see - oh yeah, I think Tivo is doing this with about a million other customers, so tell me again why they couldn't do it with DirecTV?


$$$

COMCAST TiVo is going to be a great measure stick to a lot of these claims.
Let see the numbers of people willing to spend MORE for the TiVo product

TiVo's penetration in the DirecTV had a TREMENDOUS amount to do with the cost of the hardware $99 (the SD version), and the low DVR Service fee of $4.99 that allowed you to record two things at once.

For several years... the SA-TiVo product couldn't even do that, and you were spending more for it... both for the hardware and the service fees.

I for one... know for a fact there would have been no way in the world, I would have had 6 active DTiVos if I had to pay $200 for each one... and any where from $15-$10 for each unit's service.

For almost the last 10 years... TiVo's would work on just about every single cable-co out there....
When the analog signal was very common.... and even then when Digital Box were required... TiVo made sure that they would work.

But yet... you take the DirecTV subscriber numbers out of it... TiVo has what 2mil subscribers?
In 10 years?

---------

As for why it isn't done now.
Because TiVo, Inc and DirecTV Group, could not agree on terms that were beneficial to both companies to continue the relationship into a new generation of DVRs.

As to the details on WHY they couldn't agree to terms... unless some of those executives that were at the tables for those discussions start talking... is nothing more then speculation... we only know the results... not the reasons.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

JohnB1000 said:


> Interesting that the title of the forum would include the words "*DirecTV* HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs" and of course you know that the rules allow discussion of other DirecTV. The good arguments you and others make are always undone by these silly kind of reactions.


You're ignoring the point. You claimed that comparing DirecTV DVRs to the state of the art TiVo units wasn't a valid comparison. This is a TiVo forum. The fact that there are topics within the forum that focus on particular versions of the TiVo platform doesn't make it a DirecTV forum any more than the existance of a Comcast topic makes it a Comcast forum.

Nothing I said implied that people can't make "comparisons and contrasts to non-TiVo products" or that "questions about other DirecTV products (such as the HR20) as they relate to TiVo products" aren't permitted.

The point, which you've so completely missed, is that these discussions are permitted for the benefit of DirecTV with TiVo users who are deciding whether to stick with their HR10, stick with DirecTV and move to an HR20, or perhaps leave DirecTV and switch to cable with and S3 TiVo (among other options).

The fact that you don't consider a TiVo a valid comparison among TiVo users in a TiVo forum reflects how little consideration you given to any option besides DirecTV and speaks to that the bias of your opinion on the HR20.


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## lonestarjacket (Mar 15, 2003)

I don't know if the success of Comcast TiVo is a good measuring stick. Comcast is effectively chasing away many customers who would have paid extra for TiVo (me, for one.) Those customers aren't likely to put up with over-priced bad service just to get a TiVo.

I chose cable over satellite originally because it was more cost-effective and had not contract. Comcast's moves over the past year have priced them out of my range.

I would consider satellite again except for the contract, so I went for Uverse with no contract. I like a company that is willing to do business "at will" since they have a better incentive to keep me happy.

Several of my friends loved their crappy cable DVR. Why? Because it was better than nothing and they had no point of comparison. So, I only count the opinions of people who have direct experience with both products.

My Uverse DVR is WORLDS better than the Comcast DVR, but still short of the TiVo interface and features at this point.

I WOULD pay a slight TiVo Tax to get my features and TiVo interface directly on my Uverse DVR, but I don't see that happening.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> I would love to see that analysis of how you would build your first DVR...
> From the ground up, without infringing on existing patents... and meet the goals of your company for the future options.
> 
> And in the same time... getting it done in the time frame it had to be done in... at a cost level that it would make it a practial option.


If I sounded mean, that was not intended.

Since I am not a programmer, I can't program things but I can create a flowchart of ideas to build a system that would be useful.

One area I would start with is the category area. Looking up things that deal specifically with history, Science Fiction, Westerns, Mystery and the such. What I would NOT do is lay it out using the guide grid design. I would gather all the shows pertaining to the hit I'm asking for by show type. The way DirecTV designed it is really bad and I like to use that feature a lot but I can't. Too much trouble and poorly laid out.

It's that kind of design I won't build because it's useless. I called DirecTV and they said that's all you get. Tried the other site and got the same answer.

Honestly, the HR20 really isn't that good of a machine.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

nrc said:


> The fact that you don't consider a TiVo a valid comparison among TiVo users in a TiVo forum reflects how little consideration you given to any option besides DirecTV and speaks to that the bias of your opinion on the HR20.


Once again you show ignorance. Go back and read my posts. I have numerous Tivo's and would rather that DirecTV had a TIVO system, clearly stated numerous times. My main point is that it's not worth harping on about because if you want the new channels the HR20 is a good enough option.

Following your logic this is a TIVO and DirecTV forum hence it makes no sense to compare to a product that can't receive DirecTV. Discussing it is one thing but comparing two product with totally different missions is pointless


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Scott D said:


> Honestly, the HR20 really isn't that good of a machine.


It records DirecTV shows, what more do you want ??

I would say that the vast majority of everyday DVR users don't care about the stuff you mention. I have had some form of Tivo for 8 years and have never once used a category search. Sure if that's important to you then it's a drawback, but simply one you have to compare to the advantage of receiving the HD channels. You seem to suggest that DTV would be better having no HD DVR than one without category searches - that makes no sense at all.


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## jeremy3721 (Feb 16, 2002)

No matter what all the smuggers here say about this, any kind of service contract such as cable, cell phone, internet etc. should have a reasonable amount of time to pull out. (10 days sounds about right to me) It's not resonable to expect every consumer to know everything they are getting into when a company uses fine print and legal mumbo jumbo to purposely make their service options as vague as possible. Expecting Tivo service sounds perfectly resonable to me for someone not educated on the matter. The game should be to provide a service that the customer will be interested in enough to try and satisfied with enough to keep longer than 10 days. Instead it's "let's make things as confusing as possible, keep our mouths shut and just get the potential clients pen to the paper to sign, then all bets are off because we've won and their money is ours so screw em" It's not like you drove a new car off the lot or something and devalued their product, Direct TV should only charge you the shipping costs to return the equipment if you are not satisfied within such a short amount of time.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

JohnB1000 said:


> It records DirecTV shows, what more do you want ??
> 
> I would say that the vast majority of everyday DVR users don't care about the stuff you mention. I have had some form of Tivo for 8 years and have never once used a category search. Sure if that's important to you then it's a drawback, but simply one you have to compare to the advantage of receiving the HD channels. You seem to suggest that DTV would be better having no HD DVR than one without category searches - that makes no sense at all.


See your PM.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Jeremy, There's nothing factually wrong about anything you say, but, in the end, that's just not the way it is in this case. Most people know the rules when they signup/reup with DTV and people such as myself accept the terms in exchange for what we consider the benefits. Sure I'd probably like somethings to be different but I made a balanced choice and at this point I'm satisfied. If you don't like the way it is then make a different choice.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

HazelW said:


> My point was that the HR-10 is practically dead. .


my 4 tuners of hdtivo are far from dead. Of course i'm lucky i get ota here  It will be useful forever as far as i'm concerned


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

lew said:


> With the exception of the NFL digital cable, FiOS, DTV and Dish all have similar program offerings. Locals, RSN, HBO are about the same. Content is similar. A few years ago DTV was the only one offering a DVR. Now everyone is offering a DVR and DTV went from having a tvio to a unit that isn't any different then the offerings of others.
> 
> I suspect phone/internet/video bundles will be more responsible for lost business then tivo BUT I wonder if DTV lost an opportunity to differentiate itself from the others.
> 
> ...


Sorry the 2 year commitment is NOT new, I had to agree to one when I had my last HR10-250 installed - which is now up, and I still do not havre ne since the oh so realible HR10 where replaced by the HR20 under the protection plan. The last HR10 is sitting in the garage hooked up for when I work out there, the other one had a date with Mr Remington


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## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

The two year commitment is not new, but the price was recently doubled. It costs you $480 to change your mind if you don't like it, and on top of that you don't get a refund for the money you paid for the box.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

sjberra said:


> Sorry the 2 year commitment is NOT new, I had to agree to one when I had my last HR10-250 installed - which is now up, and I still do not havre ne since the oh so realible HR10 where replaced by the HR20 under the protection plan. The last HR10 is sitting in the garage hooked up for when I work out there, the other one had a date with Mr Remington


If you have an HR10-250 with a comittment that just ended then (as lew said) you had the option of returning your equipment to get out of the commitment. It's only within the last two years that that option was dropped. When I committed there was also a buy-out option which was not unreasonable. Now if you want out of a commitment you have to return the equipment _and_ pay an exorbitant termination fee.

I haven't seen anyone argue that the original poster's numbers are not correct - commiting to the HR20 could be an $800 mistake if you don't like it. Two years ago he could have simply returned his HR10 and walked away.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

HazelW said:


> The two year commitment is not new, but the price was recently doubled. It costs you $480 to change your mind if you don't like it, and on top of that you don't get a refund for the money you paid for the box.


It wasn't doubled.

It went from a $12.50 a month rate... to $20 a month. ($300 to $480 for the entire term of 24 months).


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

nrc said:


> If you have an HR10-250 with a comittment that just ended then (as lew said) you had the option of returning your equipment to get out of the commitment. It's only within the last two years that that option was dropped. When I committed there was also a buy-out option which was not unreasonable. Now if you want out of a commitment you have to return the equipment _and_ pay an exorbitant termination fee.
> 
> I haven't seen anyone argue that the original poster's numbers are not correct - commiting to the HR20 could be an $800 mistake if you don't like it. Two years ago he could have simply returned his HR10 and walked away.


My commitment is over with, DirectV did not want either of them back, one was replaced via the protection plan with a HR20-100 - no commitment there, when they installed the 5 LNB dish they moved the last HR10 to the garage - again no commitment. BTW your logic can apply exactly to the HR10 also previously - you commitent to a HR10-250 for the same period, with the same early buy out.


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## Texceo (Mar 11, 2003)

seaannn said:


> Well, I got screwed with DIRECTV today. I don't know if there anything I can do but bend over but at least I'm warning people now.
> 
> Here's what happened. I had a series2 Directv branded tivo and upgraded to HD with the DVR. So I used it for less than 10 minutes and found out it was not TIVO. So I called them to take it back. Directv said once it's activated then they cannot take it back. I guess I should have read the details of the DVR but if I was using a Tivo before so I guess I assume it is as well.
> 
> ...


Is it just me or does this post seem fishy. This guy has been a Tivo user but just now joins the forum to complain about Directv. Yeah Right. Too many wholes in your story. Cmon you didnt ask them if it was Tivo before you bought it. Not too mention but he has been with Directv for years and using the series 2 and just now does and upgrade to HD and doesnt know a thing about the HDDVR's.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

Texceo said:


> Is it just me or does this post seem fishy. This guy has been a Tivo user but just now joins the forum to complain about Directv. Yeah Right. Too many wholes in your story. Cmon you didnt ask them if it was Tivo before you bought it. Not too mention but he has been with Directv for years and using the series 2 and just now does and upgrade to HD and doesnt know a thing about the HDDVR's.


I think its been well established that he isnt real. His first post is something like that and then neve comes back to post again? I agree with whoever it was saying that it is just an alias for someone else you just wanted to have some fun.


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

CrashHD said:


> Good stuff there. If you got more material where that came from, let me know when you get your show on comedy central, and I'll tivo it.


+1

That was the most ridiculous statement I have ever read on this forum... Whether you prefer the TiVo or the HR20/21, I don't know anyone who credibly suggest that DirecTV is a good customer service organization.

They give a new definition to terrible CSR's. Truly bad.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

What I don't like is the way they use the service committment like some sort of boobytrap. I've had service for 6 years. I started out with 2 SD non-DVRs. I got my first tivo from Circuit City, 3 yrs ago. Since then I've added 3 used tivos. I've had trouble with them changing my owned boxes to leased. I call they change them back, 1 bill comes in correct, the next shows leased again. When I activated the 5th box, I found out my service committment was renewed during the activation of the 4th box, about 4-5 months prior. Why couldn't they tell me that during the phone call which I initiated the action that triggered the committment renewal?

If they're going to do something to your account to renew a service committment, shouldn't they be obligated to tell you this, on the phone? I mean, if DTV wants to hold you to a committment, shouldn't you have to agree to it in the beginning? A simple statement by a CSR," Sir, I can (add receiver/change programming/etc) for you, but to do that, I'm going to need you to agree to a new service committment." 

DTV is my only viable choice where I live. I do not see myself dropping service in the forseeable future, so I'm just going to ride out my committment, but you better believe that once my committment is up, if I decide to have continuing DTV service, any changes made to my service will be on a phone call which I will record, and I will specifically ask the CSR what effect any such change has on my commitment. If it renews it, then I will be able to choose whether I want to recommit or stick with what I've got.

I think if they want to require committments in order to recoup subsidized costs of equipment and installation, that is fine, and it is their right, provided the customer is made aware of the committment. But renewing customers committments, without telling them it is being renewed, is downright dishonest. Maybe not technically illegal, but it's certainly an underhanded way to do business. Especially for renewing a committment when a customer activates a used reciever, which has been privately obtained, without DTV subsidy, and has been installed at the customer's own time/expense.


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

Wow, 6 pages for a troll post. Some posters bring up valid arguments, but it's almost like some people either worship or voted for their dvr of choice.  It's only TV people!


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Da Goon said:


> Wow, 6 pages for a troll post. Some posters bring up valid arguments, but it's almost like some people either worship or voted for their dvr of choice.  It's only TV people!


I guess some folks don't like reading bad things about a company they're doing business with. It might cause them to think


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I guess some folks don't like reading bad things about a company they're doing business with. It might cause them to think


Have to admit, for one of the first times I actually agree with you. Welcome ot the dark side.

Although it is interesting that the shill creates a new account in dec 07, makes a single solitary post that proves they have little or no creidt savy knowledge (read the fine contract before you agree to it), then slinks off into the night, never to seen or heard from again. Smells of shill just to add false information to the flames.


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