# Program Guide vs OTA digital channel mappings on Feb 17



## markens (Apr 12, 2007)

This is mostly a "heads-up" post. I called TiVo support about the following issue, and the person I talked with confirmed this information. But I'm not confident he actually knew what he was talking about, and wonder if anyone here has authoritative info:

Issue: Program guide info for OTA digital channels (and the underlying RF channel mappings) effective midnight Feb 17.

We all know that OTA analog signals will cease at midnight Feb 17. At that time, the digital OTA signals of many stations will change from their current (pre-transition) RF channel to a different post-transition RF channel. This will most often be their current analog channel, but that detail is not important here.

TiVos know where the OTA digital channels are via mappings in the Tribune Media program guide info, right? For example, channel 5.1 is located on RF channel 15, and the program guide provides that mapping. That's why we don't have to scan for published OTA channels. The TiVo rep confirmed this.

So it follows that at midnight Feb 17, these mappings will need to change to the post-transition values (RF channel 5 for my example case of 5.1) in order for the TiVo to continue to tune correctly, and apply "To Do" and "Season Pass" tasks correctly. This will have to happen at precisely the same time as the broadcasters change their transmitters in order to not have a lapse in functionality.

So the issue, in my mind, is this: Will the TiVo program guide really be updated in this limited window so that nothing breaks? And will recordings and season passes currently in effect continue to work after the new mappings take effect?

The TiVo rep assured me that all of this is true. While I certainly hope it is, I'm not holding my breath.

Anyone have confirmation about this? Am I concerned about nothing? Thanks much!


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

markens said:


> So the issue, in my mind, is this: Will the TiVo program guide really be updated in this limited window so that nothing breaks? And will recordings and season passes currently in effect continue to work after the new mappings take effect?


It's doubtful it will happen at exactly midnight unless TiVo creates a new way to change channel mappings remotely at a specific time. More likely, it will get the new mappings when it does its daily connection. Of course no one knows for sure since how Tribune handles these mass changes is anyone's guess. I would expect there to be issues for a few days at least.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

markens said:


> So the issue, in my mind, is this: Will the TiVo program guide really be updated in this limited window so that nothing breaks? And will recordings and season passes currently in effect continue to work after the new mappings take effect?


The EPG has 14 days worth of data on it ahead of time. There is no reason to update millions of TiVos exactally at midnight on Feb 17th. Your guide data from that time on can (will) have the new channel/frequency mappings.

I'm sure there will be some guide error... but the guide will be in place well before Feb 17th.

BOb


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## markens (Apr 12, 2007)

pilotbob said:


> The EPG has 14 days worth of data on it ahead of time. There is no reason to update millions of TiVos exactally at midnight on Feb 17th. Your guide data from that time on can (will) have the new channel/frequency mappings.


Do you know this for sure, or are you speculating? This seems to mean the guide format has the capability to store time-based mapping information (which would certainly make this a non-issue).

Or are you saying that *both* mappings will be present? If this is the case, then existing recordings and season passes will likely break after the transition since the TiVo will see them as separate channels. Much like the current situation of program guide listings for an OTA analog channel and its associated DTV channel. Identical program listings, but season passes for one won't pick up shows on the other.

I hate to cry wolf, but I'm still not convinced there won't be a problem. Hmmm, just like Y2K? (I hope!)

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Edit: Good point about guide data 14 days in advance. That should give us a good idea of what will happen on Feb 17.]


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Ostensibly, certain channels (the analog OTAs) are going away. There technically shouldn't be any guide data for them after February 17. After that, you would need to select the digital OTA channel for your recordings. The "mapping" between the digital OTA channel and the physical frequency it is being transmitted on is not something passed along with the program guide data. Rather, it is (or at least should be) obtained from PSIP, which presumably will be changing (at the moment) when digital OTA channels are switched to their old analog OTA physical frequency.

I do wonder how long it will take the TiVo to detect a change in the PSIP data. It should be a matter of minutes, but I don't know.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

markens said:


> Do you know this for sure, or are you speculating? This seems to mean the guide format has the capability to store time-based mapping information (which would certainly make this a non-issue).


I am somewhat speculating. But, your guide certainly knows what time shows are on and what channel. Of course it does. How else would it work..

Your guide knows that CSI is on a certain channel at a certain time on a certain day. I am sure that if that channel changes for the show that is on after Feb 17th it can already be preset for that in the guide.

Although, the question in my mind is what maps the channels to the frequencies. It it is the guide then you should be ok. If it is the channel line up then yes that will need to be updated. But, TiVo may have anticipated this and built in some time based mapping info.

The bottom line is, why worry about it? It is either going to work or not. I would say on the 18th check your SPs and stuff and see if it is ok. Do you record alot between Midnight and 8PM that you are worry about missing?

This is [one ereason] why I am waiting until after Feb 17th to switch from FiOS TV to OTA. (The fact that some freqs are changing so I will need a slightly different antenna set up, not because I am worried about TiVo missing a few shows.)

BOb


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

pilotbob said:


> I am somewhat speculating. But, your guide certainly knows what time shows are on and what channel. Of course it does. How else would it work..
> 
> Your guide knows that CSI is on a certain channel at a certain time on a certain day. I am sure that if that channel changes for the show that is on after Feb 17th it can already be preset for that in the guide.
> 
> ...


As I understand it, what cross references the virtual channel to the physical channel frequency is the PSIP data discovered during a 'channel scan'. As the tuner scans the physical channels, he finds out what virtual channels are on that physical channel and can map those to guide data. Now whether this is what TiVo does... I dont know. It is what TV's do.

On Feb 18, the guide data really doesnt have to change... the virtual channel is still the same. Its the OTA physical channel that changes.

I expect that first thing Wed morning, we will all have to do a channel scan on TiVo to update the virtual to physical channel mapping. I dont believe that info is in the guide data.


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## markens (Apr 12, 2007)

bicker said:


> The "mapping" between the digital OTA channel and the physical frequency it is being transmitted on is not something passed along with the program guide data. Rather, it is (or at least should be) obtained from PSIP, which presumably will be changing (at the moment) when digital OTA channels are switched to their old analog OTA physical frequency.


But the TiVo must know which frequency (RF channel) to tune in order to get the PSIP in the first place, and the evidence points to this mapping being in the OTA lineup provided by the EPG. There is a definite difference in how a "scanned" channel is handled by the TiVo (see the channel list and program guide), vs one that is in the EPG. This is the core issue I'm curious about.



pilotbob said:


> Although, the question in my mind is what maps the channels to the frequencies. It it is the guide then you should be ok. If it is the channel line up then yes that will need to be updated. But, TiVo may have anticipated this and built in some time based mapping info.


Yup, this is my question, too.



pilotbob said:


> The bottom line is, why worry about it? It is either going to work or not. I would say on the 18th check your SPs and stuff and see if it is ok. Do you record alot between Midnight and 8PM that you are worry about missing?


No, I'm not that worried about the actual programs. It's much more of the tech geek in me curious about HOW this all works. So ultimately the advice to just check it out on the 18th is the most practical.



pilotbob said:


> This is [one ereason] why I am waiting until after Feb 17th to switch from FiOS TV to OTA. (The fact that some freqs are changing so I will need a slightly different antenna set up, not because I am worried about TiVo missing a few shows.)


Indeed. I think I'll probably have to do some antenna adjustments myself after the freqs change.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

markens said:


> But the TiVo must know which frequency (RF channel) to tune in order to get the PSIP in the first place, and the evidence points to this mapping being in the OTA lineup provided by the EPG.


What "evidence" are you referring to?


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## markens (Apr 12, 2007)

SCSIRAID said:


> I expect that first thing Wed morning, we will all have to do a channel scan on TiVo to update the virtual to physical channel mapping. I dont believe that info is in the guide data.


From what I've seen, channels found by channel scan are not in the program guide. So this may or may not help.


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## markens (Apr 12, 2007)

bicker said:


> What "evidence" are you referring to?


Well, to start with this is what the TiVo CS rep told me. But I take that with a grain of salt at the moment.

Actually, now that I think about it some more, there are actually two components here: The (OTA) channel lineup obtained by the TiVo during guided setup. And the ongoing EPG data. I've been merging the two in my mind.

So perhaps the question is really related to the lineup data.

From my own observations of behavior:

Tivo will only tune digital channels that it knows about. With respect to OTA channels, it handles all channels listed in the program guide just fine _without a channel scan_ (assuming the signal is received ok, of course). Program guide data is associated with these channels as expected.

But, of course, there will be some correlation between the channel lineup and the EPG.

My channel list shows many channels I do not physically receive, along with their assigned RF channel. Since there is no way I could be getting PSIP for those channels, then the RF freq must be obtained some other way. I had been claiming it comes from the EPG through some sort of mapping. But now I think it is probably from separate lineup data.

If this is the case, the it's the _lineup_ data which must be updated, not the EPG.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

markens said:


> Tivo will only tune digital channels that it knows about. With respect to OTA channels, it handles all channels listed in the program guide just fine _without a channel scan_ (assuming the signal is received ok, of course).


I understand it may appear that way, but I suspect there is a channel scan that is part of this guided setup process, when you indicate that you're using an antenna.



markens said:


> Program guide data is associated with these channels as expected.


Until we have reason to believe otherwise, I think it safest to believe that the program guide data traffics in the virtual channel numbers, not the physical RF assignments. I believe on major objective of PSIP is that virtual channel numbers don't change even if a channel moves to a new frequency.



markens said:


> My channel list shows many channels I do not physically receive, along with their assigned RF channel.


Huh? My channel list shows channels I do not physically receive, but only shows their *virtual *channel numbers, not their (physical) RF assignment. Heck, my channel list doesn't show *any* (physical) RF assignments, even for the channels I do receive. That mapping is completely hidden from our view, as far as I can tell. What am I missing?



markens said:


> Since there is no way I could be getting PSIP for those channels, then the RF freq must be obtained some other way.


The virtual channel is coming from the Tribune program guide. I believe the fact that the channel scan didn't find PSIP matching that virtual channel is why you cannot receive them.


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## markens (Apr 12, 2007)

bicker said:


> I understand it may appear that way, but I suspect there is a channel scan that is part of this guided setup process, when you indicate that you're using an antenna.


I disagree. The channels in question do not display an asterisk ("scanned channel") in my channel list (whether I receive the signal or not), nor can they be deleted from that list like scanned channels can. But we're both speculating, so I don't think we can come to a firm conclusion based on our information alone.



bicker said:


> Until we have reason to believe otherwise, I think it safest to believe that the program guide data traffics in the virtual channel numbers, not the physical RF assignments. I believe on major objective of PSIP is that virtual channel numbers don't change even if a channel moves to a new frequency.


I agree with you here about program guide and PSIP. But the underlying issue remains: how does the TiVo find the correct, current RF frequency so that it can be tuned in the first place? Program guide mapping to virtual channel is the next step.



bicker said:


> Huh? My channel list shows channels I do not physically receive, but only shows their *virtual *channel numbers, not their (physical) RF assignment. Heck, my channel list doesn't show *any* (physical) RF assignments, even for the channels I do receive. That mapping is completely hidden from our view, as far as I can tell. What am I missing


Dunno what you're missing. But my channel list (in Settings->Channels->Channel List) definitely shows the RF channel for all OTA digital channels, whether I actually receive the signal or not. Here's an example verbatim from my list:

2-1 - KOTIDT; digital frequency 13
NBC Affiliate​
I agree with you that RF frequencies for QAM channels on _cable_ do not show up in the channel list.



bicker said:


> The virtual channel is coming from the Tribune program guide. I believe the fact that the channel scan didn't find PSIP matching that virtual channel is why you cannot receive them.


No, the reason I cannot receive them is because their transmitters are on the other side of tall mountains from me.  There are about 12 such channels listed in my lineup, in addition to many that I can receive.

BTW, a channel scan DOES find some additional OTA digital signals, including a nearby low power translator that has already been converted to digital. There is an asterisk next to it in the channel listing indicating it was found by scanning.

Further data point in support of a separate channel lineup: I occasionally get a message saying that my lineup has changed, and inviting me to confirm reception in the channel list setup. Obviously not a result of a channel scan.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

markens said:


> But the underlying issue remains: how does the TiVo find the correct, current RF frequency so that it can be tuned in the first place?


How does a television do it?


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## markens (Apr 12, 2007)

bicker said:


> How does a television do it?


The only data point I have about TVs is how my Samsung does it, and it is by scanning. But we're talking about TiVos. Sure, a TiVo can also find channels by scanning. But the presence of details in my channel list for channels which I cannot physically receive points to some other method the TiVo has available to it. The answer to this mystery is what I seek.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

bicker said:


> How does a television do it?


A TV doesn't need to tie the channel to an EPG. The TV just knows that channel to display on the screen and the RF channel from which to receive it.

BOb


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

pilotbob said:


> A TV doesn't need to tie the channel to an EPG. The TV just knows that channel to display on the screen and the RF channel from which to receive it.


However, a television needs to tie the virtual channel number to the physical RF. (The EPG uses the virtual channel number, eh?)


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

bicker said:


> However, a television needs to tie the virtual channel number to the physical RF. (The EPG uses the virtual channel number, eh?)


I'm pretty sure that info is in the digital signal sent by the broadcaster.

BOb


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Me too.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

bicker said:


> Me too.


So, then maybe it is a moot point. The TiVo knows what the virtual channel number is... that info is in the guide. When the TiVo can scan the RF freq and match any channel it finds with the guide using the VCN in the carrier.

The channel list from TiVo may include this info but I am expecting that a channel scan will override this mapping info.

BOb


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## OHSam2008 (Nov 5, 2008)

I don't know if this will help the situation here or not, but from what I've heard, once the transition happens, you will need to perform a new channel scan. This would hold true for tv's, digital converter boxes and TiVo units where OTA signals are received.

For what it's worth, I plan on getting up early that day and rescanning both of my digital converter boxes and both of my TiVo's...just to be on the safe side.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

OHSam2008 said:


> For what it's worth, I plan on getting up early that day and rescanning both of my digital converter boxes and both of my TiVo's...just to be on the safe side.


Sounds like a plan. Also, redoing guided setup might also be a good idea.

Of course, all this is only an issue if you have a channel in your area that is changing its RF frequency on Feb 18th. If you don't then everything will just keep humming along.

BOb

(I think we have 1 channel that is doing that in my area)


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

pilotbob said:


> (I think we have 1 channel that is doing that in my area)


Of the 8 OTA digital channels in Raleigh, only 3 are going back to their analog frequencies on Feb 18. 2 are staying where they currently are and the other 3 are going to new frequencies.

Ill be doing a rescan on Wed morning.....


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## markens (Apr 12, 2007)

pilotbob said:


> The channel list from TiVo may include this info but I am expecting that a channel scan will override this mapping info.


My experience with this exact issue is that a channel scan does NOT override info the TiVo already has about the lineup. Specifically, my local 10.1 "full power" transmitter is on channel 35. I cannot receive that signal, although my TiVo has full program guide info for it and even knows it is on RF channel 35.

When I do a channel scan, I find a translator for 10.1 which is broadcast from another location on RF channel 47. My TiVo does not do any mapping of this to the 10.1 that it does know about. Therefore, no program guide info for me for 10.1 in any useful fashion. It appears that, to the TiVo, these are two separate channels. This was confirmed to me by TiVo tech support. [They suggested a fix for this issue, not applicable to the discussion in this thread.]

I'm using this information to extrapolate what I think will happen when the main RF frequencies change on Feb 17, absent any updates to "out of band" data TiVo uses. Sure, I'm going to rescan too after the transition. Hopefully it will work!

BTW, several people are saying that the transition happens Weds morning Feb 18. An engineer of a local station told me specifically that the transition will happen "at midnight Feb 17 (Monday night/Tuesday morning)." At least for that station. So you might need to rescan a day earlier than you thought...


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

markens said:


> BTW, several people are saying that the transition happens Weds morning Feb 18. An engineer of a local station told me specifically that the transition will happen "at midnight Feb 17 (Monday night/Tuesday morning)." At least for that station. So you might need to rescan a day earlier than you thought...


Ah... ok. I have never been sure if Feb 17th was the LAST day of analog or the FIRST day of digital. I guess it is the later?

BOb


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## hagios (Mar 12, 2008)

Unfortunately, I think that this will be a problem.

Down here in New Orleans, the FOX affiliate made the transition early (I think it was Dec 22). They switched from digital frequency 29 to digital frequency 8 when they turned off the analog signal. Since they were making the transition early, they went way out of the way to make sure everyone was aware of the transition. TiVo SHOULD have been on the ball and should have been prepared to switch the guide data over to the new channel on the day of the transition.

They still haven't switched the guide data over. So right now my TiVo has two 8-1s listed. The first is the old channel (frequency 29) that has guide data but obviously no signal. The second is the new one (frequency 8) with no guide data. Right now, if I want to TiVo anything on FOX, I have to look up the show, see what time is starts and ends and manually record. I called TiVo tech support about two weeks ago. They said they would put in for the change and it would take 5-7 days to process. Still waiting...

So, if I were you, I would get on www.antennaweb.com, plug in your home address and see which of your channels will be moving to a new frequency. Call TiVo customer support and have them put in a request now. And be prepared to manually record shows on those channels...


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

hagios said:


> ...if I were you, I would get on www.antennaweb.com, plug in your home address and see which of your channels will be moving to a new frequency. Call TiVo customer support and have them put in a request now. And be prepared to manually record shows on those channels...


That's www.antennaweb.org, actually.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

hagios said:


> Unfortunately, I think that this will be a problem.
> 
> Down here in New Orleans, the FOX affiliate made the transition early (I think it was Dec 22). They switched from digital frequency 29 to digital frequency 8 when they turned off the analog signal. Since they were making the transition early, they went way out of the way to make sure everyone was aware of the transition. TiVo SHOULD have been on the ball and should have been prepared to switch the guide data over to the new channel on the day of the transition.
> 
> ...


Have you tried a channel scan? I would bet that if you run a channel scan, that second copy of 8-1 would go away. If it doesnt, Id reboot and see if it does.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

markens said:


> BTW, several people are saying that the transition happens Weds morning Feb 18. An engineer of a local station told me specifically that the transition will happen "at midnight Feb 17 (Monday night/Tuesday morning)." At least for that station. So you might need to rescan a day earlier than you thought...


Check this site....

http://www.dtvtransition.org/

If you take the calander and add the offset you will find that it is pointing to the transition happening as Tuesday night turns into Wednesday morning.

Here is a clip...

_On February 18, 2009, broadcast television stations will stop analog broadcasting and complete the transition to digital broadcasting. If you don't subscribe to cable or satellite services, you'll need either a television set capable of receiving DTV programming, or a digital-to-analog converter box. _


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## puffdaddy (Mar 1, 2006)

OHSam2008 said:


> ... once the transition happens, you will need to perform a new channel scan. This would hold true for tv's, digital converter boxes and TiVo units where OTA signals are received.


This makes sense for tvs and digital converter boxes which get their channel information from PSIP, but is not necessary for Series 3 tivos.

All tivo units receive their "EPG" in the form of two distinct types of slices, a Program Guide (PG*) slice and a Program Channel (PC*) slice. The former provides show information tied to specific channels. The latter contains a listing of all channels in a given area (the "Headend").

When running guided setup for a Series 3 unit receiving OTA, no channel scan is done. Rather the appropriate PC* slice is downloaded and it contains the virtual channel numbers, frequency assignment, callsign, etc. for each channel in that viewer's zipcode (OTA slices are arranged by zipcode, but DBS is different). Then a PG* slice is loaded to provide the initial 24 hours of programming, with a larger PG* slice, downloaded thereafter, to provide the ~14 days of programming.

Once the system has reached full programming, then a PG* slice is downloaded during the daily call (and the slice contains approximately one day's worth of show info unless calls have been missed), during the daily call a PC* slice may also be downloaded. The PC* slice is only needed when there has been a change to the lineup (new channel added, change in callsign, reassigned channel number), though this happens far less frequently with OTA Headends than with a DBS or Cable Headend.

While the Program Guidedata is arranged by Unix Time, I'm fairly sure that the Program Channels are not. Rather, tivos database simply contains the most current version of a Headend's Program Channels, and rubbishes the old ones. Thus, come transition time, I would expect that a new PC* slice would be downloaded during the daily call, and it would contain any updated frequency assignments. So, there might be some missed recordings during any period of incorrect frequencies (dependent upon the unit's daily call, when the broadcasters actually affect the change, etc).

All this being the case, there's no need to repeat Guided Setup or the channel scan (notwithstanding the uncommon case where you have scanned channels which are changing frequency). The previous poster who commented that scanned channels are handled separately is correct. Channel scanning resulting in an additional signal source, a "Discovered" one that is not tied to any Headend. The Tivo also avoids duplicates by checking to ensure that discovered channels don't already exist in the OTA (or Cable) Headend.

All of this is nothing new (well, the "dynamic" lineups to accommodate channel updates was added in software version 1.3 and converted from *tcl to c++/tivoapp in version 2.x, but that probably doesn't count as new ), though it was much more readily accessible when the tivo boxes were much more open (whereas now they are a black box for most).

I'll comment that the most significant point of all of this is that those with Series 2 units using digital converter boxes will need to rerun a channel scan *on the converter box* after the transition. I'm guessing that tivo will send some sort of special message to alert such users to this (perhaps they are even savvy enough to selectively send this message based upon whether or not there were frequency changes in the Headend?).


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## markens (Apr 12, 2007)

puffdaddy said:


> All tivo units receive their "EPG" in the form of two distinct types of slices, a Program Guide (PG*) slice and a Program Channel (PC*) slice. The former provides show information tied to specific channels. The latter contains a listing of all channels in a given area (the "Headend")


Thanks for the very informative post. This is exactly the information I was looking for! I'm now pretty confident that things will work relatively smoothly for my S3 through the transition, since receiving a PC* slice seems pretty easy for all TiVos to do in a timely manner.


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## hagios (Mar 12, 2008)

SCSIRAID said:


> Have you tried a channel scan? I would bet that if you run a channel scan, that second copy of 8-1 would go away. If it doesnt, Id reboot and see if it does.


The problem isn't the second (old) 8-1. The problem is that the correct (new) 8-1 doesn't have any guide data. I leave the old one in my channel list because it has guide data attached. That way I can easily see what I want to TiVo so that I can manual record on the correct 8-1.

I have tried channel scan, rerunning the guided setup and rebooting. It won't matter until TiVo moves the guide data over to the correct frequency. Once TiVo corrects the issue on their end, it should just correct itself with a daily update and I'll just get a message that says that a new channel was added to my lineup.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

hagios said:


> The problem isn't the second (old) 8-1. The problem is that the correct (new) 8-1 doesn't have any guide data. I leave the old one in my channel list because it has guide data attached. That way I can easily see what I want to TiVo so that I can manual record on the correct 8-1.
> 
> I have tried channel scan, rerunning the guided setup and rebooting. It won't matter until TiVo moves the guide data over to the correct frequency. Once TiVo corrects the issue on their end, it should just correct itself with a daily update and I'll just get a message that says that a new channel was added to my lineup.


That pretty much confirms what puffdaddy said.... Im somewhat surprised that channel scan isnt the method used to get the virtual to physical mapping..... but I cant argue with the facts 

It would seem that TiVo/Tribune have their work cut out for them getting ready for this transition and they have already missed your 8-1 transition. I would imagine a LOT of people will be forcing connections in the wee hours Wednesday morning.


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## MJRChico (Jan 9, 2009)

I live in an area that already converted, Chico/Redding CA. For both 30.1 and 24.1 the TIVO downloaded program info does not fill in the program guide on the frequency that receives the signal. If I go to antenna strength and select 24.1, freq 24, I get the feed at 100%. but from the program guide, tivo can't find the signal, I think it's because its trying to find the signal at 24.1 freq 36 where there is no feed. Why do they have two frequencies? or is it just the tivo database filling in the wrong frequency?

From my experience, Do NOT count on any OTA recordings working after the transition for a while. 

Any Advice?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Even if there was something TiVo did do/could do to address the transition date, how are they supposed to account for Congress thinking about messing with the date? Put a button on Pelosi's desk?


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

bicker said:


> Even if there was something TiVo did do/could do to address the transition date, how are they supposed to account for Congress thinking about messing with the date? Put a button on Pelosi's desk?


Its a bit late for Congress to be even considering delaying the transition. Many stations are already on half power doing transmitter updates on half the transmitter and/or on auxilliary antennas while changing out their main antennas. Contracts are already in place to update the 'other' half of transmitters as auxilliarys. What a mess a delay would be....


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

bicker said:


> Even if there was something TiVo did do/could do to address the transition date, how are they supposed to account for Congress thinking about messing with the date? Put a button on Pelosi's desk?


Maybe she has an 'easy' button....


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

SCSIRAID said:


> Its a bit late for Congress to be even considering delaying the transition. Many stations are already on half power doing transmitter updates on half the transmitter and/or on auxilliary antennas while changing out their main antennas. Contracts are already in place to update the 'other' half of transmitters as auxilliarys. What a mess a delay would be....


Agreed... extending the date would be monumentally stupid first move that Obama could make. Also, my assumption is many channels would just make the switch over anyway. I am very disappointing to hear that they are recommending this to congress.

BOb


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

pilotbob said:


> Agreed... extending the date would be monumentally stupid first move that Obama could make. Also, my assumption is many channels would just make the switch over anyway. I am very disappointing to hear that they are recommending this to congress.
> 
> BOb


They cant necessarily just 'make the switch' anyway since their post transition digital channel may already be occupied or present an interference situation to an existing analog channel that a mandated delay wouldnt allow to go off the air.... If congress orders a delay to the transition, the FCC would likely have to pull the post transition licenses.... It would be a major league mess if the transition is delayed.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Perhaps a federal judge can be convinced to set-aside the delay, if it actually passes Congress, as it would constitute the government effectively acting in bad faith.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bicker said:


> Perhaps a federal judge can be convinced to set-aside the delay, if it actually passes Congress, as it would constitute the government effectively acting in bad faith.


The government converter voucher program is out of money. I'll speculate at least some of the voucher recipients didn't really need them but got them so they could sell an almost free box on ebay.

The proposed delay is only long enough to solve the voucher funding problem. My guess the case won't be strong enough for a court set aside the delay prior to the expiration of said delay.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

However, the problems with the coupon program has nothing to do with the government effectively acting in bad faith with respect to its agreements and representations to the companies that won the spectrum auctions. So why do you feel the case against the government, for acting in bad faith, "won't be strong enough".


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bicker said:


> However, the problems with the coupon program has nothing to do with the government effectively acting in bad faith with respect to its agreements and representations to the companies that won the spectrum auctions. So why do you feel the case against the government, for acting in bad faith, "won't be strong enough".


I don't think the arguments will be strong enough to get an injunction blocking any delay. I don't think they'll be time for a "regular" trial prior to the end of the delay. A court has to decide if the legislature has the legal authority to change the rules.

Given the economic situation, and the status of the voucher program, some people may not be setup in time. A change in conditions that requires a change in policy isn't necessarily bad faith.

I agree the companies that won the auctions might have a case, might get some money back "damages". BUT I don't the case is strong enough to get a TRO.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

The argument against the delay needs only be stronger than the argument for the delay, which is remarkably weak. Until politics prevails, there should be no problem presenting a stronger argument against the delay than for it.

The economic situation has no bearing on anything. The coupon program has been operating for a while now. There is no excuse for waiting for the last minute, so no justification for using the coupon situation as a rationale for the delay.

This change in conditions does not warrant interfering with fulfillment of the government's obligations regarding the reallocation of spectrum.

I don't see the need for a TRO; I would expect a federal judge simply to put aside the delay, categorically.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Of course politics would be the reason for any delay I don't think there is any reason to believe the courts would initiate any delay.

The economy has changed dramatically in the last few months. Some voters with older sets may have been planning in buying a new TV set but can no longer afford to do so. Some voters may be dropping cable in favor of OTA. Congress may not be interested in hearing from voters who are no longer able to view TV broadcast over the public air.

I don't think the courts would interfere if Congress (and the President) says it's in the public interest for an additional delay.

I think the courts will let Congress decide if the current economic (and voucher) situation is sufficient justification for a delay. I understand you don't think there is sufficient justification but our opinion means very little.

How much compensation, if any, the companies are entitled to receive due to the delay is a different question.

A federal court wouldn't be categorically putting aside an FCC delay. The court would be declaring a new law unconstitutional. I don't see that happening overnight.



bicker said:


> The argument against the delay needs only be stronger than the argument for the delay, which is remarkably weak. * Until politics prevails*, there should be no problem presenting a stronger argument against the delay than for it.
> 
> The economic situation has no bearing on anything. The coupon program has been operating for a while now. There is no excuse for waiting for the last minute, so no justification for using the coupon situation as a rationale for the delay.
> 
> ...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

It isn't a matter of the courts initiating the delay, but rather politics playing a role in what judges decide with regard to putting the delay aside, because it constitutes bad faith on the part of the nation.

The economy still has nothing to do with this. It is 40 days from the transition. The economy has been bad for a lot long, and indeed has been worse than it is today.

The whole purpose of the courts *is* to intervene when the Congress and the President do something that constitutes bad faith on the part of the nation.

The courts routinely put new laws aside the day after they are signed into law. That's not remarkable.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

It takes more then "bad faith" to declare a federal law unconstitutional. 

I don't have the facts to know if a delay is warranted. I don't know how many OTA customers don't have the proper equipment. I don't know the reason(s) they don't.. I don't know what a delay would accomplish. Government gets to decide how to balance the issues. Time will tell how Congress will evaluate the competing interests and if the courts will back the right of congress.

You have "issues" when posters disagree with corporate decisions. You have "issues" when posters think "their facts" are more accurate then research done by a company. In this case the government gets to make the decision.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

No one has talked about anything being unconstitutional. There are other bases on which the federal judiciary sets aside laws.

Even radical Rep. Markey (D-MA) is saying, now, not to delay the transition (but rather address his concerns some other way).

I have "issues" with you missing the point of my perspective. Beyond that, you've inadvertently stumbled over the critical difference, and perhaps didn't realize you were doing so: The government doesn't get to unilaterally make a decision to change the terms of a written agreement it has signed with a set of companies. It has to live up to its side of the agreement, as much as it expected the companies to live up to their side of the agreement. You have seen me say many times that companies should be expected to only deliver *what they explicitly promise* -- well the government *explicitly promised -- in writing!!! -- *that these companies would be granted use of specific portions of RF spectrum by a certain date. That's exactly what I *always* say... explicit promises *must be complied with*. And that's why the government should not be allowed to weasel its way out of the February 17 date.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Contracts can be modified for a variety of reasons. Bankruptcy courts can void many contracts. Real Estate closing dates can be extended, in some cases unilaterally. In much of the country it takes months to evict a non-paying tenant.

I suspect a short delay (at least 30 days, maybe up to 6 months), per a law, wouldn't be reversed by the courts.

I don't know how many people are affected. How much $$$ would be required to provide enough vouchers. I'd hope congress wouldn't pass any legislation, unless a delay is the best way to solve the issues.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> Contracts can be modified for a variety of reasons.


So if you sign a contract for two years of Comcast service for $99 per month for the Triple Play, should Comcast be allowed to modify the contract, because their costs have gone up, to say, $139 per month?

Your position on this is indefensible.



lew said:


> Bankruptcy courts can void many contracts.


There is no bankruptcy here.



lew said:


> Real Estate closing dates can be extended, in some cases unilaterally.


As per the tenets of the agreement, not contrary to them.



lew said:


> How much $$$ would be required to provide enough vouchers.


There is almost surely enough money. Rather, there is a law in place that prevents issuing new coupons associated with that money until the old coupons that money is associated with expires.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

Why doesn't Congress just appropriate the additional $$million required to fund the converters vouchers? It would seem like nothing compared to the $$billion in the proposed economic recovery program.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

I am hopeful but not confident that Tivo will have the data ready in time. They seem very stubborn on supporting OTA users and so far for me have refused to fix OTA listings with incorrect digital frequencies.


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## aus1ander (Sep 17, 2004)

I'm surprised we haven't heard from TiVoPony or TiVoStephen regarding this issue, as I can imagine this being a big problem come mid-February if its true that the THD/S3 does not use PSIP for channel mapping. I have two stations changing frequencies on 2/18, ABC and NBC, so I hope we hear from someone at TiVo soon.


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## MJRChico (Jan 9, 2009)

Can we please get back to the Frequency/ Channel OTA Program guide issue, This post was not about congress. I just spent a while on the Phone with TIVO, They said they would look into my issue with the guide, They said I was the first person in my area to complain about it, it would go on their todo list.

It did seem not to be in their knowledge base of quick answers, which is troublesome, considering what they are about to face.

Thanks.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

You may find that restricting the subject of the thread may result in very few if any posts. 

I think you hit on why that is the case, and you're right, it is troublesome, considering what they are about to face. Perhaps they're the ones prompting Podesta to delay the transition. LOL!


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## visionary (May 31, 2006)

Does anyone know, will guide data for my S1 just stop on Feb 17? If so looks like Tivo would be notifying everyone by now??? I know cable and sat will continue, but its still a big deal. Does the S1 accept the OTA converter boxes? I don't want to run guided setup till I know. All I read about is S2.

I am ready to rescan on my S3, but what is talked about here never occurred to me before, that the guide will go to the wrong channel. Tivo does need to make a statement, for sure.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

visionary said:


> Does anyone know, will guide data for my S1 just stop on Feb 17? If so looks like Tivo would be notifying everyone by now??? I know cable and sat will continue, but its still a big deal. Does the S1 accept the OTA converter boxes?


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=394679

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=407369

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=415772


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

lew said:


> The proposed delay is only long enough to solve the voucher funding problem. My guess the case won't be strong enough for a court set aside the delay prior to the expiration of said delay.


It seems to me that the problem is more easily solved by automatically extending all the expire dates on currently issued vouchers. Many people ordered vouchers early and they expired before they could be used, boxes weren't available yet.

The rules also say you can't order again if you didn't use them. So, they should also change this rule and allow people that didn't use their issued vouchers to re-request them in case they discarded or lost the ones they were originally issued.

Of course, no matter what they do, there are going to be people that won't do anything until the magic box isn't working. Seriously, people talk about the loss of a TV signal or a channel or two as if these people wouldn't have food, water or shelter. It's just TV people. Perhaps Barnes and Nobel should have a Digital TV Transition sale. Get 50% off any one book if you bring your expired DTV voucher in. This will give you something to do when you can watch your soap.

BOb


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## sgndave (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm sure that this little tidbit won't surprise anyone on this forum, but Tivo's website (support section) is telling S3/HD owners that they don't need to do anything as a result of the transition, and that their boxes will continue to work. Just to add to the confusion when it happens...

http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/technicalsupport/compatibilityhelp/Digital_antenna_support.html



> TiVo Series 3 HD DVR and TiVo HD DVR Customers: You are not affected by this transition!


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Don't delay the conversion. It has been advertised heavily for at least six months, so there is no excuse for not being ready. And no one ever died because their TV watching was interrupted.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

pilotbob said:


> It seems to me that the problem is more easily solved by automatically extending all the expire dates on currently issued vouchers. Many people ordered vouchers early and they expired before they could be used, boxes weren't available yet.


New vouchers are no longer being issued, the program is out of money. Vouchers will be issued to people on the "waiting list" as vouchers expire without being used. Should we be more concerned with people who forgot the voucher expired or people who waited to order the voucher? At least some of the people who waited may have originally planned to purchase a new TV set or who recently dropped cable, economic reasons.


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## Roderigo (Mar 12, 2002)

sgndave said:


> I'm sure that this little tidbit won't surprise anyone on this forum, but Tivo's website (support section) is telling S3/HD owners that they don't need to do anything as a result of the transition, and that their boxes will continue to work. Just to add to the confusion when it happens...
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/technicalsupport/compatibilityhelp/Digital_antenna_support.html
> 
> ...


You missed the next part of their description:


> You are not affected by this transition! Your DVR is already capable of tuning to digital antenna channels.


In the context of this page, it's a true statement. You do not need any additional equipment, and there's nothing you can do in advance of the transition. Tivo may not get it right, but it's out of your control.

But, Series2 & Series1 customers *MUST* get additional equipment, or they will not be prepared for the transition.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

Roderigo said:


> You missed the next part of their description:
> 
> In the context of this page, it's a true statement. You do not need any additional equipment, and there's nothing you can do in advance of the transition. Tivo may not get it right, but it's out of your control.
> 
> But, Series2 & Series1 customers *MUST* get additional equipment, or they will not be prepared for the transition.


I think his point was that many folks would stop reading there or not realize that the statement was only about not needing a DTV external tuner and not about any issues with where the logical to physical mapping data comes from (which was the subject of this thread).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Anyone who stops reading in the middle of a paragraph, when the very next sentence provides the clarification they'd need to avoid confusion, gets what they deserve.


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## sgndave (Jan 16, 2002)

> I think his point was that many folks would ... not realize the statement was only about not needing a DTV external tuner and not about any issues with where the logical to physical mapping data comes from (which was the subject of this thread).


Yes, that's exactly the impression that most people would get from the way it is worded. Thank you.



> Anyone who stops reading in the middle of a paragraph, when the very next sentence provides the clarification they'd need to avoid confusion, gets what they deserve.


Well, yes and no. Yes to the concept, but no to this particular case. The next sentence does *not* provide the clarification needed to avoid confusion. It provides additional information, but it does so in a way that propogates the confusion by implying that there are no other possible ways of being affected, which certainly isn't true.

The statement that "You are not affected by this transition" is very specific and distinct, and blatently false. No implied modification by any further statements can possibly make it accurate or truthful. The fact that the box will receive the new digital broadcasts (the second statement) does not magically transform the first statement into something truthful. Those are two separate and distinct statements. The first is blatently false, and the second is true. Putting them together in the same paragraph does not change that fact.

If the first statement had said that you didn't need to do or buy anything additional to receive OTA channels after the transition, then it would be a true statement. But there is no way a reasonable person can logically argue that people with S3/HD boxes who lose guide information, automatic recording functionality or reception for one or more channels (even temporarily) as a result of the transition will "not be affected". They will most definitely be affected. If they weren't going to be affected, this entire thread would be meaningless - we'd be talking about something that would never happen.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

You're entitled to your opinion, but it seems to me that you're splitting hairs that do not warrant being split.


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## Alcatraz (Nov 22, 2000)

markens said:


> So the issue, in my mind, is this: Will the TiVo program guide really be updated in this limited window so that nothing breaks? And will recordings and season passes currently in effect continue to work after the new mappings take effect?
> 
> The TiVo rep assured me that all of this is true. While I certainly hope it is, I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> Anyone have confirmation about this? Am I concerned about nothing? Thanks much!


I believe Season Passes are mapped to a specific network name. Since there's no guarantee that the guide data will go away immediately, it is unlikely that your SP would automatically jump to a hi-def antenna channel. I suspect everyone will need to redo SP's.



hagios said:


> Down here in New Orleans, the FOX affiliate made the transition early (I think it was Dec 22). They switched from digital frequency 29 to digital frequency 8 when they turned off the analog signal. Since they were making the transition early, they went way out of the way to make sure everyone was aware of the transition. TiVo SHOULD have been on the ball and should have been prepared to switch the guide data over to the new channel on the day of the transition.
> 
> They still haven't switched the guide data over. So right now my TiVo has two 8-1s listed. The first is the old channel (frequency 29) that has guide data but obviously no signal. The second is the new one (frequency 8) with no guide data.


Try deleting all scanned channels before rerunning the scan.



visionary said:


> Does anyone know, will guide data for my S1 just stop on Feb 17? If so looks like Tivo would be notifying everyone by now??? I know cable and sat will continue, but its still a big deal. Does the S1 accept the OTA converter boxes? I don't want to run guided setup till I know. All I read about is S2.


If you go to the support section of their website, there is currently a Digital Antenna Transition link in the Announcement section. The page it goes to states:
_*Digital antenna support is not available for Series1 DVRs. If you are currently using a Series1 DVR with antenna, please visit the Digital Transition 2009 page to see if you are eligible for an upgrade.*_


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## hagios (Mar 12, 2008)

Alcatraz said:


> Try deleting all scanned channels before rerunning the scan.[/B][/I]


obviously, I tried that. *The point is you can rescan channels and rerun guided setup and everything and nothing will change until TiVo remaps the guide data.* They finally did make the change about 4-5 days ago. That means that I had no guide data for our local FOX affiliate for close to a month. Everything is fine now.

Let's hope that TiVo does a better job than this on Feb 17.


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## markens (Apr 12, 2007)

Alcatraz said:


> I believe Season Passes are mapped to a specific network name. Since there's no guarantee that the guide data will go away immediately, it is unlikely that your SP would automatically jump to a hi-def antenna channel. I suspect everyone will need to redo SP's.


Just to clarify the situation I originally raised: The question concerns people (like me) who are already receiving OTA digital signals. For example, SP for a show on channel 5.1 currently causes my TiVo to tune to RF channel 15 to record that program. Guide data shows up as channel 5.1, and the channel list in settings shows the proper current RF frequency as 15.

After the transition, this station's digital signal will move to RF channel 5. The program guide will still list channel 5.1, but now my TiVo will need to know to tune to RF channel 5 in order to receive the signal.

Season Passes definitely know which of several channels to record on when the same show is on multiple channels. But this is not a case of the "visible" logical channel (5.1) changing; it is the underlying RF frequency. Question is whether the TiVo will see this as a lineup change, or magically map the SP to the new RF frequency transparently.

I just got off the phone with TiVo tech support, and chatted with a rep who seemed much more knowledgeable and helpful than the previous one I talked with. She confirmed that the OTA digital channel lineups (including RF frequencies) are indeed being updated for the transition, and should be downloaded during a normal daily connect upon the transition. I asked if a forced connect would update as well, and she said yes. She also said that there will likely be some changes that are missed, and that anybody with such cases should call TiVo to report the exceptions so they can address them.



hagios said:


> Let's hope that TiVo does a better job than this on Feb 17.


Indeed!

With respect to season passes, the rep said that they "should" work, but that it's really hard to tell about specific situations until after it happens. I found this an honest answer, and I am prepared to simply redo my SPs after the transition. At least I have control over this, unlike the channel lineup frequency mapping!


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