# Comcast CableCard Billing ?/Insanity



## cmaasfamily (Jan 26, 2006)

Comcast Atlanta.

Here's my setup: 
Digital Basic service
TV #1: Moto STB to Tivo to TV
TV #2: Cablecard
TV #3 & 4: Coax to Tivo to TV

Comcast does not charge for CableCard, but charges me for Digital Service -Additional Outlet.

I call and they take the $5.99 A/O off and then a month or two later the bill will say "our records indicate that you have more equipment assigned to your account than is reflected on your bill...." and the $5.99 comes back again.

This started because the the cablecard stopped working several times (after four months of service) and I had to call to get them to enable it again. Then $5.99 appeared for the first time. The people I've talked to say there is no CableCard charge and no A/O charge with a CableCard. 

What is your experience? Digital A/O for CableCard doesn't necessarily seem wrong, but Comcast customer service tells me I shouldn't see it, but some backoffice person or system adds it back. 

Is it just me?


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

As I've always understood Comcast charges, there's a fee for the rental of the STB and then there's a fee for each additional digitial outlet after the first one. So 2 x STB would be 2x STB rental + 1 AO. STB and CableCard is 1xSTB rental + 1 AO. No charge for the cablecard, but a charge for having more than one digital device. This is no different to Sattelite charging a mirroring fee for each additional reciever.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

So I wonder how it's going to work when you get a Series 3 and order two CableCARDs? I mean they're both going into the same device, so it should on be considered one additional outlet. However there system might be setup to assume that every CableCARD = an additional outlet.

Dan


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

It is about how many control devices (cablecards or boxes) they have on your account.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Wow so they're going to charge people for two AO fees to get two CableCARDs? That sucks! My cable company charges $1.50 per month per CableCARD regardless of how many you have.

Dan


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> My cable company charges $1.50 per month per CableCARD _regardless of how many you have_.





Dan203 said:


> My cable company charges $1.50 per month per CableCARD....


$1.50 each



Dan203 said:


> My cable company charges $1.50 per month ...... regardless of how many you have.


Total $1.50

So two cablecards are $1.50 each or $1.50 total?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Sorry it's $1.50 per CableCARD, but that's it. No extra "additional outlet" fee(s)

Dan


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

The bit I haven't yet explored properly is is it an outlet charge as they describe or is it a device charge. If I have one outlet with an S3 and an HDTV that is one outlet and three cablecards. I thought with Comcast you only got charged one outlet fee for that.


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## cmaasfamily (Jan 26, 2006)

Thanks.

The meta-point is, I think, that Comcast people/systems don't really know what to make of a CableCard (inconsistent messages/behaviors locally anyway). 

I don't think the A/O charge is unfair, but, as others have pointed out, the potential complications when S3 comes along are disturbing.

Depending on your POV, either a reason to be cautious with investing in an S3 or evidence of a conspircy to lock people into the cable co.'s DVR.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

We've got a Comcast (digital) cable box and a Comcast dual tuner hi-def DVR on the account. I expected to be charged $15 for a second digital outlet and the DVR (we also have two additional analog outlets which don't require a box), but was only charged $10 for the DVR with no additional outlet fee. 

I called and specifically asked about their policy. The rep had to check with a supervisor, but when she returned to the line I was told that I am being charged according to their policy. I got the impression that a different rep might have made a different assessment, but that's what happened and that's what we've been charged consistently for a year now.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

It's a real mess and I'm sure when the S3 is out ordering 2 CableCards for 1 device is just going to complicate things even more - hope the system even allows tying 2 CableCards to 1 device. My plan initially for the S3 will be to feed it OTA + cable for unencrypted QAM and keep the cable co. DVR at least initially until the initial bugs are worked out of the S3 software (hopefully no hardware bugs).

I sure hope that if using unencrypted QAM there will be a way to manually map channels found in the scan to those in a channel lineup or it will be worthless - most of my unencrypted channels have no PSIP information which means they won't have a station name that Tivo can map automatically to a guide listing. Someone mentioned before Tivo may handle this by creating custom lineups - but that seems like way too much effort for Tivo to have to handle since it's different in every headend and subject to change at any time.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

moyekj said:


> It's a real mess and I'm sure when the S3 is out ordering 2 CableCards for 1 device is just going to complicate things even more - hope the system even allows tying 2 CableCards to 1 device. My plan initially for the S3 will be to feed it OTA + cable for unencrypted QAM and keep the cable co. DVR at least initially until the initial bugs are worked out of the S3 software (hopefully no hardware bugs).
> 
> I sure hope that if using unencrypted QAM there will be a way to manually map channels found in the scan to those in a channel lineup or it will be worthless - most of my unencrypted channels have no PSIP information which means they won't have a station name that Tivo can map automatically to a guide listing. Someone mentioned before Tivo may handle this by creating custom lineups - but that seems like way too much effort for Tivo to have to handle since it's different in every headend and subject to change at any time.


My LG LST-3510A HDTV receiver with QAM tuner receives all digital channels on the Comcast line-up which aren't encrypted but manually mapping them would be a real bear. I'd almost rather QSL on SW.

*Here*'s info on Comcast's Cable Card policies. Apparently there's no charge for Cable Cards but additional outlet charges "may" (??) apply. And Comcast "may" (??) apparently charge for a mandatory installer housecall as well. (Although not listed in the Cable Card FAQ's, the installation charge "may" (heh-heh) not be too huge, as I was quoted $21 for a tech to install an additional (analog) coax outlet when I asked.)

When additional outlet charges are assesed the charge is based on the number of programs which can be watched simultaneously on different TV's. IOW, Comcast's DVR can record two programs at the same time but only has a single output to a TV; TiVo's Series 3 will be similiar (as is the current dual-tuner Series 2).


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

moyekj said:


> I sure hope that if using unencrypted QAM there will be a way to manually map channels found in the scan to those in a channel lineup or it will be worthless - most of my unencrypted channels have no PSIP information which means they won't have a station name that Tivo can map automatically to a guide listing.


I agree 100%. The Sony DHG product has a way to edit the channel assignments; I hope the Series 3 has something similar, perhaps as an advanced setting. If not, the Series 3 won't be terribly useful for cable users that don't use cable card.

(For Comcast users, don't forget that Comcast has told the FCC they allow self-installs, so don't let them hookwink you into a truck roll).


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

It is a charge to have the device in their authorisation system, atached to your account. Your provider apparently has no fee for physical possesion of their card.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> I agree 100%. The Sony DHG product has a way to edit the channel assignments; I hope the Series 3 has something similar, perhaps as an advanced setting. If not, the Series 3 won't be terribly useful for cable users that don't use cable card.
> 
> (For Comcast users, don't forget that Comcast has told the FCC they allow self-installs, so don't let them hookwink you into a truck roll).


Comcast's website, which I linked to above, says *no*. Do you have a source to print out for reference?

FYI, a bill insert from Comcast lists the following charges (among others):

Move an Outlet $18.99
Additional Connection Requiring a Separate Trip $21.99
Upgrade of Optional Services (Separate Trip) $15.99
Service Call $19.99


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## Maxnl (Jan 7, 2006)

See if instead of removing the addition outlet charge if they can change the charge to $0.00. That is how it appears on our bill, and then the system wouldn't see a missing charge.
Just a thought anyway.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> Comcast's website, which I linked to above, says *no*. Do you have a source to print out for reference?


Can't find it at the moment - someone posted it here in another thread.

When I find it, I'll post here.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> Comcast's website, which I linked to above, says *no*. Do you have a source to print out for reference?


NCTA quarterly report to FCC (including Comcast's report):
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518372521


> *Comcast CableCARD Data (Quarterly Report)
> March, April, May 2006*​Current Number of CableCARD Subscribers: 70,989
> Number of CableCARD in Inventory: 21,740
> How are CableCARDs deployed (Truck Roll / Self Install / Both): Both
> ...


Note, however, that while "Comcast" allows self-installs, that doesn't mean every individual Comcast cable plant will allow self-installs. So while you should be allowed to self-install at (some) Comcast plants, you may (and probably won't) be able to at others. As / If the average number of truck rolls per install decreases, you should see self-install more widely available.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

dt_dc said:


> NCTA quarterly report to FCC (including Comcast's report):
> http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518372521


That was the one - thanks for posting it again.

When we get nearer to Series 3 rollout, I'm going to use that report to get my local Comcast office to allow me to self install. Or at least use it to complain to my local franchise authority if they say no.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

dt_dc said:


> NCTA quarterly report to FCC (including Comcast's report):
> http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518372521
> Note, however, that while "Comcast" allows self-installs, that doesn't mean every individual Comcast cable plant will allow self-installs. So while you should be allowed to self-install at (some) Comcast plants, you may (and probably won't) be able to at others. As / If the average number of truck rolls per install decreases, you should see self-install more widely available.


After reading through that *report on Cable Card deployment* I can see why cable companies want a tech on hand. Apparently many installations have run into problems which needed some kind of tech assistance.

I can't complain too much about Comcast's policies. Their installers have generally been knowledgable and helpful and their service charges aren't exorbitant. Actually, I've been pleasantly surprised!


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> I can see why cable companies want a tech on hand. Apparently many installations have run into problems which needed some kind of tech assistance.


It's not for everyone, but there is NOTHING a tech will do that most users, especially tech types that have installed a PC card in a computer before, can't easily do.

The tech will have to install the card, go to a diagnostics menu, get some serial number and other info off the card (and from the device it's in) and call it into someone to enter into a computer. Much like DirecTV does with access cards.

And I will pretty much guarantee you that I will know more about the process (especially the combination of my TV and the Tivo Series 3) than any tech they send will.

It's not rocket science.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> It's not for everyone, but there is NOTHING a tech will do that most users, especially tech types that have installed a PC card in a computer before, can't easily do.
> 
> The tech will have to install the card, go to a diagnostics menu, get some serial number and other info off the card (and from the device it's in) and call it into someone to enter into a computer. Much like DirecTV does with access cards.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt you. But that's you. I'm sure that if your cable company's policy mandates a "truck roll" the tech will just stand by and let you do your thing.

I might be able to do it myself just as easily. But I know enough to realize that sometimes it's the stupidest li'l glitch that'll getcha', and there's a lot of 'em out there just waiting!


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> After reading through that *report on Cable Card deployment* I can see why cable companies want a tech on hand. Apparently many installations have run into problems which needed some kind of tech assistance.


Don't read too much into the problems / issues section of the report. It's just an opportunity for The NCTA and the CEA (in _their_ reports to the FCC) take turns sniping at each other.

Basically ...



> (NCTA or CEA) CableCard report to FCC:
> Lots of problems. We wouldn't be having these problems if things had been done the way _we_ (NCTA or CEA) wanted to in the first place. These problems are caused by _them_ (NCTA or CEA) and doing things the way _they_ (NCTA or CEA) wanted to. Therefor, moving forward, things should be done the way _we_ want (NCTA or CEA).


That about covers it.

Although yes, there are problems and untill there are less of them cable companies will be hesitant to allow self-instals.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> I'm sure that if your cable company's policy mandates a "truck roll" the tech will just stand by and let you do your thing.


I don't care if they want to send a truck roll, as long as I don't have to pay for it. 
If Comcast corporate tells the FCC that they allow self-installs, I will not pay for the privilege of having a tech watch me put the card(s) in my brand new Series 3.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> I don't care if they want to send a truck roll, as long as I don't have to pay for it.
> If Comcast corporate tells the FCC that they allow self-installs, I will not pay for the privilege of having a tech watch me put the card(s) in my brand new Series 3.


I don't have a problem with paying the standard $20 fee for a Cable Card installation. It's certainly low enough and insures that there will be no unforseen problems.

Apparently some Comcast locations have different local policies than others. Why does paying $20 cause you such grief?

When the time comes post about how your installation was handled. Good luck!

I'll probably use Series 3 without a Cable Card, but not because of the installation fee. HBO is the only premium service which we receive that requires a Cable Card for access. Since I want VOD anyway, and like Comcast's MS EPG it pays to keep Comcast's hi-def dual tuner DVR and let it handle HBO.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

Interesting... I used to work for cable companies (At&T & Cox) and we were always told it was not legal for the companies to charge a monthly fee for an A/O because you own the wiring once it's installed in your home. There was always a 1 time charge for installation, but no monthly fee no matter how many analog sets you had hooked up in your home. 

Now, renting a box/card is a seperate issue, but it sure sounds like they're charging you for the outlet, not the card.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> I don't have a problem with paying the standard $20 fee for a Cable Card installation. It's certainly low enough and insures that there will be no unforseen problems.
> 
> Apparently some Comcast locations have different local policies than others. Why does paying $20 cause you such grief?


It's the principle of the thing. I'm going to do all the "work" anyway - why should I pay someone else to watch me? The CableCard rental fees in my area are already obscene (cost of an additional digital set top box rental) - I have no desire to pay any more than I have to.

It's also wrong that I can't BUY my own cable card and assume the related risk, but that's another problem.

I'll post my experience when the time comes - I'm very confident that even if I end up paying for a truck roll, I'll get a corresponding credit on my bill.

Right now, my primary concern is getting a Series 3 to put the card(s) in to ...


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

jfh3 said:


> It's also wrong that I can't BUY my own cable card and assume the related risk, but that's another problem.


 I'm not sure "risk" is the issue with OWNING a cablecard, it's how your rights would change which would be of very legitimate concern to the MSOs. While there are other safeguards in the chain if you were to, privately, mess with your physically owned card, I would imagine it is much easier from a legal perspective to lease it to you and have ownership rights remain with the MSO.

I'm not sure how "right" or "wrong" play into it. The MSOs have a legitimate right to attempt to control pirated access to their systems. A leased card also gives the MSO the right to exchange it if the need were to occur. It also ensures that the MSO can get the cards back if it needs to. Beyond cost, to you the consumer, does it matter between lease and own?



jfh3 said:


> Right now, my primary concern is getting a Series 3 to put the card(s) in to ...


 You and a few other people...


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> I don't have a problem with paying the standard $20 fee for a Cable Card installation. It's certainly low enough and insures that there will be no unforseen problems.


Cablevision charges $49.95 for CC installation. Still seem reasonable? Not to me either.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> It's the principle of the thing. I'm going to do all the "work" anyway - why should I pay someone else to watch me?


I'd rather not, but if that's the way the rates are, that's the way the rates are. It's "like it" versus "not like it", not "fair" versus "unfair". (And "liking it" isn't really a "principle".)


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

TiVo Troll said:


> After reading through that *report on Cable Card deployment* I can see why cable companies want a tech on hand. Apparently many installations have run into problems which needed some kind of tech assistance.
> 
> I can't complain too much about Comcast's policies. Their installers have generally been knowledgable and helpful and their service charges aren't exorbitant. Actually, I've been pleasantly surprised!


I'm glad this worked out well for you. I had six attempts at getting a cable card installed. While the 6th installer was a complete idiot, he did at least leave the car here. I told him not to play with the cables behind the TV. Sure enough, he swaps the OTA antenna and cable TV inputs, and then can't get the car working. Finally he left. I switched the coax back and called Comcast and told them my TV was displaying a "call to authorize cable card message." Read them the host and other ID info. They sent the signal, and the card worked. Perhaps they are not all idiots, but I can pretty much tell you that over two weeks, there were 100% idiots at bat here for Comcast.


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