# Best long range antenna out there? Antenna experts chime in please.



## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

We have been OTA only for over 3 years.

After yet another frustration with TWC, I am considering not even hooking up cable TV at all.

However, our current rooftop antenna does not work as well as we would like.

We have gone to AntennaWeb and TVFool, but they have only limited info as we live on the other side of a hill, so there is a hill obstruction. We also have 90+ trees surrounding our property.

We live roughly 25 miles from the broadcasting stations, but with obstructions, we are having problems getting all the signals in well.

This is the antenna we have:

http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Maste...297462&sr=8-5&keywords=channel+master+antenna

We also have an amplifier hooked up to it.

This is the one I am considering getting:

https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB8e-Ultra-Long-Range-Outdoor-DTV-Antenna.html

Any thoughts? Any better ones out there I should look at?

Thank you,

Dawn


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

If you have obstructions between your location and the broadcast towers then the best antenna available isn't going to cure the problem. If the signal is being blocked then there's nothing for the antenna to receive. At the very least you'll probably have all sorts of multipath interference since whatever signal is out there is likely being bounced all over the place. Your best bet would be to mount your antenna on the highest mast allowable to raise it above the obstructions. An amplifier could actually make the situation worse if the signal is weak as it will also amplify the noise. Otherwise, you could subscribe to basic cable with just locals or see what DirecTV or Dish can offer you.

Check the AVS Forums in the HDTV section. There's a sub forum titled "Local HDTV Info and Reception." See if there's a thread that discusses reception for your location. Perhaps there's someone in a similar situation that has come up with a workable solution.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

get a db4e or db8e what TiVo are you using?


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank you.

The antenna we have is already mounted as high as it can go. We have tried to put it in the path of the least amount of trees.

We DO get several channels perfectly, but some are still very glitchy and I do wonder if part of it is that it is aimed in one direction only and we should have a more multi-directional antenna.



mr.unnatural said:


> If you have obstructions between your location and the broadcast towers then the best antenna available isn't going to cure the problem. If the signal is being blocked then there's nothing for the antenna to receive. At the very least you'll probably have all sorts of multipath interference since whatever signal is out there is likely being bounced all over the place. Your best bet would be to mount your antenna on the highest mast allowable to raise it above the obstructions. An amplifier could actually make the situation worse if the signal is weak as it will also amplify the noise. Otherwise, you could subscribe to basic cable with just locals or see what DirecTV or Dish can offer you.
> 
> Check the AVS Forums in the HDTV section. There's a sub forum titled "Local HDTV Info and Reception." See if there's a thread that discusses reception for your location. Perhaps there's someone in a similar situation that has come up with a workable solution.


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## StevesWeb (Dec 26, 2008)

The antenna you have chosen, a four bay bowtie, is the style I used to recommend to customers when I repaired TVs for a living 40 years ago.

It is a directional antenna and you most likely want that because it will reduce pickup of reflected signals (multipath).

If your coax run is over 75 feet you might consider a mast mounted preamp.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

the Channel Master CM2016. its a line of sight antenna.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

Are the trees evergreens, and if not, do you get better reception in the winter time when there are less leaves in the way? 

If I remember my electronics correctly, I don't think that TV broadcast frequencies will reflect off the atmosphere,like AM waves will. But will reflect off of buildings. So maybe the antennas need to pointed in a different direction than where the antennas are. The antenna could be pointed using the TiVo signal strength meter built into newer TiVos.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Something to try when setting up/experimenting with OTA antenna, pointing it somewhere other than where the transmitters are, in case blocked signal is bouncing in from being reflected off of something big, like building, "out there somewhere".


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## phone man (Nov 4, 2011)

Would you copy and paste your tvfool report here please or let me know what you user name is over there so I can find it. 

Thanks


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## dcline414 (May 1, 2014)

You could also try just moving it around some... Lower, left, right... Once you aren't line of sight, different frequencies will wrap around obstructions differently. We actually picked up more channels with the antenna about 2' lower and rotated a few degrees away from the direction of the closest towers.

There is a lot of science, but there is still a fair amount of trial and error and getting lucky.

One thing that really helped us was to get separate VHF and UHF antennas with a preamp that combined and amplified the inputs separately. Having the preamp as close as possible to the antenna (on the mast) and using RG6 quad shield cable between the balun(s) and amplifier(s) also makes a big difference. Anything that reduces noise (quality baluns, wire, connectors, preamp) significantly improves the reliability of your reception on weak signals.

Also, many will advise against this, but our signal is weak enough that it runs through a distribution amp 10' from the preamp with no overloading issues.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

I am posting this and hoping this works without giving out my exact address:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=2c15c3239a64ae



phone man said:


> Would you copy and paste your tvfool report here please or let me know what you user name is over there so I can find it.
> 
> Thanks


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Somewhat better reception, but the channels we had issues with int eh summer, we also have trouble with in the winter, although probably not AS bad.



replaytv said:


> Are the trees evergreens, and if not, do you get better reception in the winter time when there are less leaves in the way?
> 
> If I remember my electronics correctly, I don't think that TV broadcast frequencies will reflect off the atmosphere,like AM waves will. But will reflect off of buildings. So maybe the antennas need to pointed in a different direction than where the antennas are. The antenna could be pointed using the TiVo signal strength meter built into newer TiVos.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Thanks.

We have an amplifier on our current antenna and I would guess it would be helpful on any antenna. Our coax is def. over 75 feet.



StevesWeb said:


> The antenna you have chosen, a four bay bowtie, is the style I used to recommend to customers when I repaired TVs for a living 40 years ago.
> 
> It is a directional antenna and you most likely want that because it will reduce pickup of reflected signals (multipath).
> 
> If your coax run is over 75 feet you might consider a mast mounted preamp.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

We actually went through all of that when we put it up on the roof. I think this is the best we can get.



dcline414 said:


> You could also try just moving it around some... Lower, left, right... Once you aren't line of sight, different frequencies will wrap around obstructions differently. We actually picked up more channels with the antenna about 2' lower and rotated a few degrees away from the direction of the closest towers.
> 
> There is a lot of science, but there is still a fair amount of trial and error and getting lucky.
> 
> ...


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank you. I had forgotten about that forum but I do have a membership and went there when we were first looking at dropping TV service.



mr.unnatural said:


> If you have obstructions between your location and the broadcast towers then the best antenna available isn't going to cure the problem. If the signal is being blocked then there's nothing for the antenna to receive. At the very least you'll probably have all sorts of multipath interference since whatever signal is out there is likely being bounced all over the place. Your best bet would be to mount your antenna on the highest mast allowable to raise it above the obstructions. An amplifier could actually make the situation worse if the signal is weak as it will also amplify the noise. Otherwise, you could subscribe to basic cable with just locals or see what DirecTV or Dish can offer you.
> 
> Check the AVS Forums in the HDTV section. There's a sub forum titled "Local HDTV Info and Reception." See if there's a thread that discusses reception for your location. Perhaps there's someone in a similar situation that has come up with a workable solution.


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## phone man (Nov 4, 2011)

DawnW said:


> I am posting this and hoping this works without giving out my exact address:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=2c15c3239a64ae


Thanks Dawn that helps a lot. When you say the broadcast towers are 20 miles away I assume you're aiming the antenna NNE? What results do you get if it's aimed to the NW or are you receiving signals from both directions now?

If you're getting decent reception on strong stations with the small antenna you have now, an antenna with more gain should perform even better. The general rule is larger antennas like an eight bay (bowtie) antenna, like the one you're considering, will have more gain but the forward beam will be narrower. A four bay antenna will have slightly less gain but the beam is wider and able to take in signals from various directions though I think the 50 degree spread is asking a bit much when you add a hill and tall foliage.

An eight bay antenna will give you about 4 more db to work with assuming the narrow beam isn't a problem with aiming. Looking NNE all those stations are within a few degrees of each other so it should work. I don't like the moveable side panel design of the Antennas Direct model you mentioned. If you get that one keep the panels even with each other. Turning them different directions introduces new problems. I would suggest the Channel Master 4228HD. I've installed two of these for neighbors who got interested in free TV after we cut the cord three years ago. The 4228 HD is very good with high VHF like your PBS affiliate on real ch11. This is the antenna I'm using. We're 40 miles from the broadcast towers and have very reliable reception. Our antenna is 30' off the ground and we have a clear view for 350' then there's a tall line of trees.

A couple questions... What amplifier are you using? How close are the tall trees you mentioned? How close is the hill? One of the neighbors I worked with had a large maple tree 150' away and we had to aim right at it even with the antenna 35' off the ground. Moving the antenna up and down on the mast a few inches at a time we found a sweet spot that allowed reception of a problem channel. Just something to consider when you're aiming an antenna.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Using two S3s at the moment, but I have just ordered a Roamio that will arrive Wed.

Dawn



tootal2 said:


> get a db4e or db8e what TiVo are you using?


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank you.

I will go look at the amplifier later today. It is behind things in the garage so I will need to move stuff around to get to it, not a huge issue, but it is raining at the moment, so I will wait to get in there until I can move things out without them getting rained on.

The trees are probably only 50-70 feet away from the antenna. The hill is directly across the street. It isn't huge and it may not even be high enough to worry about, it may only be the trees that are the issue.

Someone recommended a Clearstream 4v. This is similar to what you are recommending isn't it? Opinions?

Dawn



phone man said:


> Thanks Dawn that helps a lot. When you say the broadcast towers are 20 miles away I assume you're aiming the antenna NNE? What results do you get if it's aimed to the NW or are you receiving signals from both directions now?
> 
> If you're getting decent reception on strong stations with the small antenna you have now, an antenna with more gain should perform even better. The general rule is larger antennas like an eight bay (bowtie) antenna, like the one you're considering, will have more gain but the forward beam will be narrower. A four bay antenna will have slightly less gain but the beam is wider and able to take in signals from various directions though I think the 50 degree spread is asking a bit much when you add a hill and tall foliage.
> 
> ...


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

db4e is better then the Clear stream 4
Clear stream 4v Range: up to 65 miles Gain of 12.2 dBi
db4e Range: Up to 65+ miles Peak gain: 14.5 dBi

Im getting a db4e Monday to replace my Clear stream 2 on my TiVo hd.



DawnW said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I will go look at the amplifier later today. It is behind things in the garage so I will need to move stuff around to get to it, not a huge issue, but it is raining at the moment, so I will wait to get in there until I can move things out without them getting rained on.
> 
> ...


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank you.



tootal2 said:


> db4e is better then the Clear stream 4
> Clear stream 4v Range: up to 65 miles Gain of 12.2 dBi
> db4e Range: Up to 65+ miles Peak gain: 14.5 dBi
> 
> Im getting a db4e Monday to replace my Clear stream 2 on my TiVo hd.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Ok, the amplifier is a Channel Master 10747


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## phone man (Nov 4, 2011)

Not sure but I think that's the number for the power inserter for the Channel Master 7777 pre amp which is 30 db gain. That's a very powerful pre amp. If your coax run is 100' or more in length and you have a splitter or two it should be OK. I only ask because I've seen people use Radio Shack pre amps which are notoriously bad. Still, be aware that too much amplification will cause poor reception. 
Ideally a pre amp should be just strong enough to make up for signal loss due to long coax runs and loss from splitters. 


So the trees are 50-70 ft away and the antenna is pointing directly at them. That's a tough one. Any chance trimming a limb or two to open things up? I would still bet you'll see improvement with an antenna that can gather more signal. A four or eight bay UHF antenna should be fine. I don't know where you're shopping but I hope they have a good return policy in case it doesn't work out.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

I think I need to take a picture, we have a forest......so that trimming would be a LOT of trees and we are talking about trimming the tops off trees over 90 feet tall!



phone man said:


> Not sure but I think that's the number for the power inserter for the Channel Master 7777 pre amp which is 30 db gain. That's a very powerful pre amp. If your coax run is 100' or more in length and you have a splitter or two it should be OK. I only ask because I've seen people use Radio Shack pre amps which are notoriously bad. Still, be aware that too much amplification will cause poor reception.
> Ideally a pre amp should be just strong enough to make up for signal loss due to long coax runs and loss from splitters.
> 
> So the trees are 50-70 ft away and the antenna is pointing directly at them. That's a tough one. Any chance trimming a limb or two to open things up? I would still bet you'll see improvement with an antenna that can gather more signal. A four or eight bay UHF antenna should be fine. I don't know where you're shopping but I hope they have a good return policy in case it doesn't work out.


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## phone man (Nov 4, 2011)

DawnW said:


> I think I need to take a picture, we have a forest......so that trimming would be a LOT of trees and we are talking about trimming the tops off trees over 90 feet tall!


A tall forest. That paints a clearer picture. I was thinking of a single row of trees. Thick dense foliage is a real problem for UHF. Someone mentioned experimenting with moving the antenna slightly left and right as well as up and down. Who knows, there may be a place where the signal is stronger. Check this link. It demonstrates why moving an antenna slightly can make a big difference. 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank you.

We did this when we put it up in the first place so I am not sure it will help, but it may be worth a shot.



phone man said:


> A tall forest. That paints a clearer picture. I was thinking of a single row of trees. Thick dense foliage is a real problem for UHF. Someone mentioned experimenting with moving the antenna slightly left and right as well as up and down. Who knows, there may be a place where the signal is stronger. Check this link. It demonstrates why moving an antenna slightly can make a big difference.
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

A little further blathering about trees which I learned back in the old analog broadcast days.

The higher the frequency, the more directional it is, and the more vulnerable to being blocked by something in its path.

Even though it's sound waves and not electro-magnetic ones, a home stereo system illustrates this. The low frequencies output by the sub-woofer tend to "wrap around" most anything in the way and join back up on the other side, whereas the high frequencies from the tweeters tend to get more easily blocked and dispersed by stuff in the way.

So it is with EM.

The lower frequencies of a VHF TV signal can sometimes wrap around a pine tree or 3 which will stop a higher frequency UHF signal dead in it's tracks.

And the change to digital has meant a lot of television stations moving the actual broadcast frequency of their transmitters from a VHF allocation to a UHF one, regardless of by which number they continue to advertise themselves.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

DawnW said:


> I am posting this and hoping this works without giving out my exact address:


You may just have to live with limitations. I would love to have your report. We got a FOX digital translator last week, but we still don't get NBC, ABC, CBS a d we wouldn't get them with a 100' antenna.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=2c154325157161


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

That stinks.

When we moved here I didn't care about OTA. We had Directv and no plans to leave them.



Pacomartin said:


> You may just have to live with limitations. I would love to have your report. We got a FOX digital translator last week, but we still don't get NBC, ABC, CBS a d we wouldn't get them with a 100' antenna.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=2c154325157161


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I got my db4e hooked up and I all the channels in good but 1. also I have the new antenna pointed at the towers instead of having to use the reflection by pointing it away from the towers. like I had to do with clear stream 2. 

Im going to try this out for a month with my TiVo hd and then get a roamio.

having a 3 foot antenna on the wall of my condo looks bad. but I don't mind


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

DawnW said:


> That stinks.


Using your tvfool list of stations can you tell us which of the stations labelled GREEN (9 stations) you don't get? It will give us an idea if you are having problems with VHF or UHF ? Then answer the same question for YELLOW (5 stations). Is it just CBS out of the GREEN stations that you don't get?

It is possible to borrow a friend's signal from somewhere else (and pump it over the internet). Because we only get 1 out of 4 major networks, I figured if the cable bill keeps exploding I can steal my brothers signal from Atlanta. He has 15 stations within 6 miles of him, and he lives in a high rise, so he has perfect reception.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Pacomartin said:


> Using your tvfool list of stations can you tell us which of the stations labelled GREEN (9 stations) you don't get? It will give us an idea if you are having problems with VHF or UHF ? Then answer the same question for YELLOW (5 stations). Is it just CBS out of the GREEN stations that you don't get?
> 
> It is possible to borrow a friend's signal from somewhere else (and pump it over the internet). Because we only get 1 out of 4 major networks, I figured if the cable bill keeps exploding I can steal my brothers signal from Atlanta. He has 15 stations within 6 miles of him, and he lives in a high rise, so he has perfect reception.


Yes, I can tell you, although after printing that out and going to my TV, I see that several stations I do get (but are glitchy) aren't even listed on TVFool. How can I find out about them?

As for the green channels, the ones that don't come in at all are 50 and 31. The yellow channels I do not get 25 or 16.

3-1 and 42.1 can also pixelate. Both are in the green zone.

The channels not listed in the TVFool report that I watch are channels 30-3 (MeTV) and 18.2 (Antenna TV) Both have issues fairly often with going in and out/pixelating.

Thank you,

Dawn


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

DawnW said:


> As for the green channels, the ones that don't come in at all are 50 and 31.


The following two stations use same broadcast tower in Reedy Creek Park
real channel 34 WSOC-TV, ABC uses a 1000 kW (omnidirection) antenna
real channel 50 WAXN-TV Independent is a 150 kW (directional) antenna 
So channel 50 signal is directed at downtown Charlotte, and is a lot less power than 34 (ABC). The programming is aimed at a more urban audience. Probably nothing you do with your trees is going to matter much.

Channel #31 on the tvfool seems strange, as I can't figure out what it is. WCCB is not associated with channel 31. I am not sure how accurate tvfool is here.

WCCB, is virtual channel 18 (UHF digital channel 27), but subchannels 18.2 is Antenna TV, and 18.3 is Me-TV (20 miles away). So I am sure those are your mystery channels. WCCB's relationship with Fox formally ended after 27 years on June 30, 2014 and is now a CW affiliate. You can see below that the Fcc database is not updated.

The FCC says you should get the following 10
Strong signals

ABC	WSOC 9-1	UHF
CBS	WBTV 3-1	UHF
FOX	WCCB 18-1	UHF
NBC	WCNC 36-1	UHF
PBS	WNSC 30-1	UHF
CW	WJZY	46-1	UHF
IND	WAXN 64-1	UHF
PBS	WUNG 58-1	UHF
MYTV	WMYT 55-1	UHF
PBS	WTVI	42-1	Hi-V

As we discussed earlier it seems that the Fcc is wrong on WAXN, as it is a directional signal of much less power.

You may be trying to knock yourself out to catch moderate or weak signals. It seems like you have all the major networks.

Also ME-TV has moved from station to station a lot. They changed stations this year in Philadelphia.It is still listed as Charlotte - WCCB (Over the air) so I am not sure why you have it on channel 30.3 .


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Pacomartin said:


> The following two stations use same broadcast tower in Reedy Creek Park
> real channel 34 WSOC-TV, ABC uses a 1000 kW (omnidirection) antenna
> real channel 50 WAXN-TV Independent is a 150 kW (directional) antenna
> So channel 50 signal is directed at downtown Charlotte, and is a lot less power than 34 (ABC). The programming is aimed at a more urban audience. Probably nothing you do with your trees is going to matter much.
> ...


Yeah, I don't know why my channels seem to be a bit different, but they are.

Anyway, thank you for responding.

We were going back and forth between getting a better antenna and getting cable for now.

After watching another hour of glitchy TV, I am more inclined to look at cable now.

Dawn


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

DawnW said:


> After watching another hour of glitchy TV, I am more inclined to look at cable now.


Many cable companies are more willing to work deals they wouldn't have done two years ago. Like Over the Air stations and HBO and Cinemax (if you don't want to pay for TNT, TBS. USA, SYFY, and the lot).

Many times they don't advertise these choices, but they will sell them to you.

If they don't offer them today, they may do it in 90 days. The pressure is too much on cable, so they will make deals.

My cable company would not even consider so called "lifeline" cable two years ago. "Lifeline" is a popular term for just the Over the Air stations in your DMA. Now they give you "lifeline" for just the equipment rental and fees if you buy internet.

Charlotte DMA is 1% of the nation 

WSOC ABC	Cox Media Group
WBTV CBS	Raycom Media Incorporated
WCNC NBC	Gannett Company Inc
WJZY FOX	Fox Television Stations Incorporated

WCCB CW	Bahakel Communications Limited
WLNN IND	Carolina Rays LLC
WNSC PBS	South Carolina Educational Television Commission
WTVI PBS	Central Piedmont Community College
WUNG PBS	University of North Carolina

WMYT MyNetwork Fox Television Stations Incorporated
WUNE UNC-TV University of North Carolina


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I took the amplifier off my antenna and now I get all channels. I think my TiVo hd with 2 tuners and ota records more shows them my windows media center with 6 tuners because of TiVo suggestions.


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## drkmstr (Nov 23, 2013)

tootal2 said:


> get a db4e or db8e what TiVo are you using?


I have a DB8E mounted in my attic and it works great. I like the fact that I can rotate the brackets.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Pacomartin said:


> Many cable companies are more willing to work deals they wouldn't have done two years ago. Like Over the Air stations and HBO and Cinemax (if you don't want to pay for TNT, TBS. USA, SYFY, and the lot).
> 
> Many times they don't advertise these choices, but they will sell them to you.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

I bought one of these for my local channels, http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Digital_HDTV_Outdoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-3020.htm
And I can get channels 75 miles away on a 25ft boom and a rotator for different locals.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I bought one of these for my local channels, http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Digital_HDTV_Outdoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-3020.htm
> And I can get channels 75 miles away on a 25ft boom and a rotator for different locals.


Thanks. I am hoping that I won't have to rotate, but maybe that is expecting far too much.

How do you make sure it is pointing to the place you need while recording each show?


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

Directv gives me national feeds of the channels that are over 60 miles away. which comes in handy for recording, but I still need the antenna for my local radar and channels D* doesn't carry. I just have to watch those live.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I thought 70 miles was the limit because of the curvature of the earth?



DawnW said:


> Thanks. I am hoping that I won't have to rotate, but maybe that is expecting far too much.
> 
> How do you make sure it is pointing to the place you need while recording each show?


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## rbakley (May 28, 2008)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> Directv gives me national feeds of the channels that are over 60 miles away. which comes in handy for recording, but I still need the antenna for my local radar and channels D* doesn't carry. I just have to watch those live.


BTW, You can add the AM-21 Tuner to most of the DirecTV boxes. This allows you to record two OTA channels at a time via an external antenna. You can order it from DirecTV's site, or a retailer such as solidsignal.com. This way you can record the channels that DirecTV doesn't provide via their satellite.

-bob


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

tootal2 said:


> I thought 70 miles was the limit because of the curvature of the earth?


Don't forget the customer could be at elevation as well. We don't live on the ocean.

Mahanoy City, PA lies at an elevation of 1240 ft. above sea level; Broad Mountain (1795 ft), a ridge extending through Schuylkill County, overlooks it on the southeast.

At 1795' even with an antenna that clears the trees, you are higher than the broadcast towers in Philadelphia (*76 miles away*). At this physical location John Walston in 1948 built the first cable TV system during the first full season when all TV networks began broadcasting.

But at sea against a 1000' tower your line of sight would be closer to 45 statute miles.

If you are on the beach you need a 100' tower to easily see a low flat ship on a clear day 12 nautical miles from shore. Hence the mid 20th century informal law that a country's territory extends at least 12 nautical miles from the shore. The 12 nm was formalized in 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. In prior time periods beginning in roughly the early 1700's the limit had been 3 nautical miles (distance of a cannon shot).


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Pacomartin said:


> Don't forget the customer could be at elevation as well. We don't live on the ocean.
> 
> Mahanoy City, PA lies at an elevation of 1240 ft. above sea level; Broad Mountain (1795 ft), a ridge extending through Schuylkill County, overlooks it on the southeast.
> 
> ...


I am not at the beach, but I am only 700 or so feet above sea level. So, not all that high for sure, but not the beach.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank you all for your help.

I will keep this thread for reference.

We have decided with the 12 month promo, we will just get cable TV for now. 

Once the price jumps in 12 months, we may be re-looking at going to OTA.

We also are planning to move in a year, so being closer to the signals may allow us to get better antenna reception.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Please Stop back after the first bill. I am curious how much a month it actually really costs.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

jth tv said:


> Please Stop back after the first bill. I am curious how much a month it actually really costs.


They gave me the breakdown. It should be $89 plus $5 for cable cards, minus $6 for me having my own modem, plus about $15 in taxes and fees, for a total of about $105.

They say this "saves $900 over the course of a year" so I assume that means that it will go up by an additional $75/mo. plus additional taxes. We will not pay $200/mo, so we will either need another deal or will cancel at that time.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

DawnW said:


> They gave me the breakdown. It should be $89 plus $5 for cable cards, minus $6 for me having my own modem, plus about $15 in taxes and fees, for a total of about $105.


And I assume that is for cable and internet. What speed? If it just for commercial television it's kind of high.



DawnW said:


> They say this "saves $900 over the course of a year" so I assume that means that it will go up by an additional $75/mo. plus additional taxes. We will not pay $200/mo, so we will either need another deal or will cancel at that time.


No, that is what they are saving you over some mythical "retail pricing". Typically, what they do is give you another "special offer" which will save you some magical amount, but be higher than what you paid the first year. No cable company would charge $200 for cable and internet. You could get satellite service for far less.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Pacomartin said:


> And I assume that is for cable and internet. What speed? If it just for commercial television it's kind of high.
> 
> No, that is what they are saving you over some mythical "retail pricing". Typically, what they do is give you another "special offer" which will save you some magical amount, but be higher than what you paid the first year. No cable company would charge $200 for cable and internet. You could get satellite service for far less.


It is 30mbps, phone service, and cable TV, premium package. We were paying $65 for just internet at 20mbps. We wanted to up it to 30mbps and were told it would be $70 or so with tax for just internet.

They used to bargain and deal with me on internet alone, now they aren't as likely to do that if you are only getting internet. I have tried and tried and they occasionally take off $10/mo for 6 months but that is about it.

I am well aware of how retail marketing works and that I am not actually saving any money, I was just trying to figure out the regular price and saying that I will not be paying that when the time comes.

The package I got was the $89 bundle plus taxes and fees.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

DawnW said:


> They gave me the breakdown. It should be $89 plus $5 for cable cards, *minus $6 for me having my own modem,* plus about $15 in taxes and fees, for a total of about $105. They say this "saves $900 over the course of a year" so I assume that means that it will go up by an additional $75/mo. plus additional taxes. We will not pay $200/mo, so we will either need another deal or will cancel at that time.


Are you saying they're going to give you a $6/month credit for having your own modem? I have this package and they never mentioned that. This is Time Warner Cable, right?


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

DawnW said:


> I am well aware of how retail marketing works and that I am not actually saving any money, I was just trying to figure out the regular price and saying that I will not be paying that when the time comes.
> 
> The package I got was the $89 bundle plus taxes and fees.


It won't really help you figure out the price increase. They will probably raise it $10-$15/month and then tell you that you are still $700 below retail.

If you want to drop telephone service and replace it with VOIP from Walmart to save money, they start freaking out on the phone. "If you make a change in the package you must start paying retail and your monthly payment will actually go up!".


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Pacomartin said:


> It won't really help you figure out the price increase. They will probably raise it $10-$15/month and then tell you that you are still $700 below retail.
> 
> If you want to drop telephone service and replace it with VOIP from Walmart to save money, they start freaking out on the phone. "If you make a change in the package you must start paying retail and your monthly payment will actually go up!".


They did quote that not getting the phone service would be $89 and getting the package with phone service would be $89, so we got it. We actually have Ooma and are fine with that, and we rarely use the home phone anyway.

This is for the initial 12 months of the package only.

I called 3 times before actually pulling the trigger......and the answer was always the same.

We have NO choice for internet......it is TWC or TWC. They used to bargain with me and give me deals on internet only, but they stopped that about 2 years ago. I was calling and calling and would get nothing.

Dawn


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

HarperVision said:


> Are you saying they're going to give you a $6/month credit for having your own modem? I have this package and they never mentioned that. This is Time Warner Cable, right?


That is what they told me on the phone. However, I often get erroneous info from customer service folks, so I guess I will find out.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

DawnW said:


> They did quote that not getting the phone service would be $89 and getting the package with phone service would be $89, so we got it. We actually have Ooma and are fine with that, and we rarely use the home phone anyway.


This scam is relatively new. The service is "free" except for taxes, fees, and surcharges. Unless it actually say the word TAX, it is not a tax, but just revenue under a different name. The *Federal Subscriber Line Charge* is a joke. It's all deceptive advertising.

My cable company is now giving "free" TV with internet (just broadcast channels only). It's "free" except for the "surcharges". 
Broadcast TV Surcharge $5.98
Sports Programming Surcharge	$3.97
Entertainment Networks Surcharge	$2.00
Then there are equipment "fees" to descramble the signal. CableCARD at $2 per card per month are the cheapest equipment fees, but most people just go ahead and rent something more expensive.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Pacomartin said:


> This scam is relatively new. The service is "free" except for taxes, fees, and surcharges. Unless it actually say the word TAX, it is not a tax, but just revenue under a different name. The *Federal Subscriber Line Charge* is a joke. It's all deceptive advertising.
> 
> My cable company is now giving "free" TV with internet (just broadcast channels only). It's "free" except for the "surcharges".
> Broadcast TV Surcharge $5.98
> ...


Ya this is one area where the Government/FCC should step in and step on these A** Holes. There is only one reason for the way cable/satellite/telephone companies bill like they do - to make it impossible to know if they are being billed what you should be/where quoted when you signed up.

Frankly I wish all pricing was like gasoline - an all in price including all taxes - nothing else to be added period.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

DawnW said:


> They did quote that not getting the phone service would be $89 and getting the package with phone service would be $89, so we got it. We actually have Ooma and are fine with that, and we rarely use the home phone anyway. This is for the initial 12 months of the package only. I called 3 times before actually pulling the trigger......and the answer was always the same. We have NO choice for internet......it is TWC or TWC. They used to bargain with me and give me deals on internet only, but they stopped that about 2 years ago. I was calling and calling and would get nothing. Dawn


I got this same package initially and didn't need phone, then I saw a similar pkg without phone for $79/mth so I called back and switched it to that.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

HarperVision said:


> I got this same package initially and didn't need phone, then I saw a similar pkg without phone for $79/mth so I called back and switched it to that.


I am not seeing a $79 package.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

DawnW said:


> I am not seeing a $79 package.


I saw an ad for it somewhere and called in. She dug into her promos and found it.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

HarperVision said:


> I saw an ad for it somewhere and called in. She dug into her promos and found it.


I will keep an eye out for it. So far, I can't find it in searching on google.


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## dcline414 (May 1, 2014)

Pacomartin said:


> Many cable companies are more willing to work deals they wouldn't have done two years ago. Like Over the Air stations and HBO and Cinemax (if you don't want to pay for TNT, TBS. USA, SYFY, and the lot).
> 
> Many times they don't advertise these choices, but they will sell them to you.
> 
> If they don't offer them today, they may do it in 90 days. The pressure is too much on cable, so they will make deals.


Funny, I always got the best cable and satellite deals from pushy salespeople at kiosks in Costco, Sams, or the mall.

However I've discovered that if you answer OTA antenna when they start out asking who your current provider is, they completely give up instantly. I guess no one has any teaser deals to attract people away from free TV right now.

We were considering going cable shopping now that we have a kid after 3 years of OTA, but there were no deals so we just doubled down with a Roamio OTA.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

dcline414 said:


> However I've discovered that if you answer OTA antenna when they start out asking who your current provider is, they completely give up instantly.


In the context of this thread the OP was saying that she couldn't get an adequate signal because of intervening hills and trees. I only get FOX of the major networks, and I get none of the minor networks like CW, MYN, and ION.

My brother lives in a tall building in Atlanta with 15 stations broadcasting within 5 miles. They like the movies on Netflix or in the local art house theater. He has cable TV included in the rent, but he uses the antenna since he likes the signal better.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

dcline414 said:


> Funny, I always got the best cable and satellite deals from pushy salespeople at kiosks in Costco, Sams, or the mall.
> 
> However I've discovered that if you answer OTA antenna when they start out asking who your current provider is, they completely give up instantly. I guess no one has any teaser deals to attract people away from free TV right now.
> 
> We were considering going cable shopping now that we have a kid after 3 years of OTA, but there were no deals so we just doubled down with a Roamio OTA.


They don't seem to give up on me when I say antenna. In fact, they seem a bit confused. Then they launch into their latest deals. I usually interrupt them and say I am not interested and start walking away.


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