# TiVo Gets a Major Upgrade, But Can It Beat Google TV?



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2026338,00.html#ixzz12nZ8sSTF

Good macro analysis on the current state of TiVo versus Input 2 devices like Apple TV, Roku, and Google TV.

Flawed in that it doesn't even mention the recent deals with the MSOs and the recent rulings from the FCC that might make cable card's and tuning adapters a little less painful.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

A well rounded article that actually points out the strength of TiVo along with the flaws.

My only gripe would be the concept that TiVo could compete on its interface only with Roku and others in a non-DVR box. Umm any other Netlfix interface I have seen blows TiVo out of the water.
TiVo got the unified search down really well - but forgot to keep going and make the specific features interfaces as good.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

From the article:

_All of this leaves me pining for two TiVos that don't yet exist. One would be a more thoroughly modern, affordable DVR designed to be an irresistible upgrade from an Internet-only box. Another would do away with the DVR feature altogether, reducing the cost and bulk and putting TiVo's user interface and Internet features head-to-head with Apple TV, Google TV and other whippersnappers. The company has announced that it's working with Best Buy to build an Internet-ready TV that sports TiVo's user interface. Beyond that, it's not talking about any plans to take on Apple TV, Google TV and company more directly. (See the top 10 Internet blunders.)

I suspect that TiVo is just being coy and that both types of next-generation models are in the works. I sure hope so: it would be pretty cool if the company that revolutionized TV a decade ago were a major force in the revolution that's under way right now.
_

I appreciate his confidence that Tivo has something in the works, but if they're not willing to fix all the obvious flaws in the Premiere, does it really matter? Tivo in the last couple of years has been stagnant, feature-wise, and not willing to do what it takes to finish the job on what they have.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> From the article:
> 
> I appreciate his confidence that Tivo has something in the works, but if they're not willing to fix all the obvious flaws in the Premiere, does it really matter? Tivo in the last couple of years has been stagnant, feature-wise, and not willing to do what it takes to finish the job on what they have.


Premiere is a great piece of hardware with some "Version 1.0" software issues. I have confidence that TiVo is on the right track to getting the software issues resolved.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

sbiller said:


> Premiere is a great piece of hardware with some "Version 1.0" software issues. I have confidence that TiVo is on the right track to getting the software issues resolved.


My confidence is not what it once was.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

sbiller said:


> Premiere is a great piece of hardware with some "Version 1.0" software issues. I have confidence that TiVo is on the right track to getting the software issues resolved.


That's nice, segmental even, and shows you have good and kind heart.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Ok not to be too picky but isn't the *"Major Upgrade"* that this article is talking about actually the Tivo Premier? Seems like old news to me.

Has something else changed (been Upgraded) recently that I missed?

Thanks,


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I love how my TiVo does things it did not do when I bought it and I think the value it provides me keeps increasing

however;
'incremental' is the new 'major' at TiVo inc.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

The reviewer only used one Tivo, so he missed the CCI byte fiasco that blindsided Tivo and allowed some cable companies to cripple MRV functionality. As more and more content becomes available on the internet, there will be a point that people won't choose Tivo because of the much higher cost. Tivo now has 2 competitors, the cable companies and google TV, instead of one.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I love how my TiVo does things it did not do when I bought it and I think the value it provides me keeps increasing
> 
> however;
> 'incremental' is the new 'major' at TiVo inc.


I would definitely agree. I assume he is probably referring to the UI, but I don't believe he touched on the fact that it wasn't 100% yet.

I use Pandora more than I thought I would, but beyond that most of the new stuff I haven't been using it as much. I haven't even dug down in the menus yet, and instead do what I can on TiVo.com instead.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

atmuscarella said:


> Ok not to be too picky but isn't the *"Major Upgrade"* that this article is talking about actually the Tivo Premier? Seems like old news to me.


Yeah, old news.. That was my reaction too.

I would say it was a decent article, but it totally seems to me like a lot of people say Tivo works the best, but they for some reason keep wanting it to change. I'm not saying I don't want Tivos to do more.. I'm just saying if the others can't even catch up to do the _same_ things that Tivos do as well as they do, why do they want the *existing* Tivo functionality to change?

Even here, lots of people complain about Tivo's UI "looking 10 years old" or somesuch. Except for the HD-ness of it(*), if it works, why change it?

(*) I have S3 & TivoHD, but am not actually using them with HD sets yet.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

mattack said:


> Yeah, old news.. That was my reaction too.


You'll are missing the point of the article. While it is old news to the TiVo community it is not old news to the general audience that read Time Magazine. The article is a *meta *analysis of the news that has transpired since the release of the Premiere bringing in very recent and relevant information like Google and Apple TV.

The recent FCC ruling maintaining the tuning adapter and CC requirements along with the USPTO affirmation that TiVo's patents are still valid are huge news which portends that virtually every DVR on the market is infringing on TiVo's patents.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> My confidence is not what it once was.


Same here


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## treat2day (Mar 27, 2010)

TiVo mutiple patents will keep them moving upwards by making deals with others and forcing cable companies to play nice.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yeah, just what we need, another patent-trolling company instead of one willing to innovate (or at least stay even) against the competition. I'll repeat what I said - Tivo has to keep their product stable and reliable first and foremost, but also add features that the competition is providing. The obvious problems with the Premiere, six months after release, are troubling, as is their continued ignoring of common requests like streaming and single-DVR view/management (both of which others are providing or working on).

Keep the DVR better than all the rest, then add all the internet fluff. IMO of course.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

sbiller said:


> You'll are missing the point of the article. While it is old news to the TiVo community it is not old news to the general audience that read Time Magazine. The article is a *meta *analysis of the news that has transpired since the release of the Premiere bringing in very recent and relevant information like Google and Apple TV.
> 
> The recent FCC ruling maintaining the tuning adapter and CC requirements along with the USPTO affirmation that TiVo's patents are still valid are huge news which portends that virtually every DVR on the market is infringing on TiVo's patents.


Sorry don't buy the above. The Premier was released 6 months ago. This article's headline is:

*TiVo Gets a Major Upgrade, but Can It Beat Google TV?*

They have it 100% backwards. GoogleTV is new and wasn't even available to the general public when the article was written. So the question should be does GoogleTV beat or even compete with TiVo. Sure the article is a nice endorsement of TiVo and appears to have the facts mostly correct but the head line is still misleading at best.

I understand many peoples desire to move to an on demand video world but frankly in today's world GoogleTV does not compete with TiVo in any meaningful way. If people don't believe that's true then they just need to ask how many people who bought a TiVo and are not using it as a DVR - my guess is basically no one.

If someone builds a DVR on top of GoogleTV then that device will certainly compete with TiVo and maybe (and this is a big maybe) someday if it becomes practical for the masses to download/watch live all their video from the Internet (no fixed schedule cable or OTA channels) then at that point a non-DVR GoogleTV device would compete with a TiVo DVR - but we are years (decades?) from that being the reality for the masses.

Thanks,


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> They have it 100% backwards. GoogleTV is new and wasn't even available to the general public when the article was written. So the question should be does GoogleTV beat or even compete with TiVo. Sure the article is a nice endorsement of TiVo and appears to have the facts mostly correct but the head line is still misleading at best.


Agree with you that the headline is misleading. In fact, the first time I re-read the article I had the same reaction. In reality, TiVo competes with other input 1 devices. Essentially the MSO's and satellite provider's generic DVR offerings.

On the other hand, TiVo does offer some of the same services as Google TV, Apple TV, etc and in this manner competes with these input 2 devices. Unsophisticated consumers probably can't contemplate that TiVo integrates linear and non-linear TV through a unified search mechanism. In fact, one of my favorite features of my TiVo S3 is the high definition search app. The ability to browse episodes is awesome.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Yeah that article made little sense. 

Apples to oranges. 

And Tivo's local streaming, Netflix, Amazon on Demand etc aka Tivo's extra features don't compare to the same stuff on the ATV, for example.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> but also add features that the competition is providing.


what competition and what features? Please be more detailed


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Streaming and single view DVR - Direct TV and Moxi have both (if you count the Mates). Nobody has full management with conflict resolution, though.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Streaming and single view DVR - Direct TV and Moxi have both (if you count the Mates). Nobody has full management with conflict resolution, though.


Moxi has single view simply becasue the mates record nothing. They were working on being able to schedule from the mates.

DirectTV has had a burst of innovation on streaming and single view.

Neither of these have exactly jumped up their market share and I for one would not want single view (way too long a list in our house) as I can easily just go to the other TiVo DVR and see what is on there all from now playing already. So these are features you legitimately want but not necessarily the innovative market share increases you say they could be for TiVo as a whole.

Also TiVo is not a patent troll - that would be a company that bought IP simply to make money from it. TiVo INVENTED the IP it is PROTECTING via lawsuits.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Neither of these have exactly jumped up their market share and I for one would not want single view (way too long a list in our house) as I can easily just go to the other TiVo DVR and see what is on there all from now playing already. So these are features you legitimately want but not necessarily the innovative market share increases you say they could be for TiVo as a whole.


I like to give my ideas away for free since TiVo won't use them anyway. This is why you need user profiles like they teased with the Premiere launch.

You would be able to select which shows displayed under your My Shows list. This way the list would only be as long as you wanted if you even opted the TiVo in.

This could then be extended to things like remote deletion where you could give profiles permission specific to shows whether you could also delete from other TiVos. You could block the kids while giving the spouse permission to delete their shows but not yours.

I just think little things like this add up and more options improve the user experience since you can always not use them. Just like I know some people don't want Netflix shows listed in their My Shows list, but I would love it. I would love to be able to view TV shows mixed among My Shows since sometimes I forget I have a show in my queue especially if it is about to expire from instant streaming. They would just have the red Netflix symbol beside them so you knew.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> I like to give my ideas away for free since TiVo won't use them anyway. This is why you need user profiles like they teased with the Premiere launch.


oh yeah, good point on user profiles - that would be something useful to a wider range of folks. Likely they are all here in the forum though  I wonder where we could get some stats on how many folks actually upgrade the hard drive size and thus likely have a long list of shows across multiple TiVo DVRs.

I will readily agree that TiVo has a LONG list of suggestions given to it on tweaks and make overs that would make the TiVo experience much better.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> oh yeah, good point on user profiles - that would be something useful to a wider range of folks. Likely they are all here in the forum though  I wonder where we could get some stats on how many folks actually upgrade the hard drive size and thus likely have a long list of shows across multiple TiVo DVRs.
> 
> I will readily agree that TiVo has a LONG list of suggestions given to it on tweaks and make overs that would make the TiVo experience much better.


I think part of this goes back to TiVo just holding the cards too close to its chest. TiVo knows how many people have upgraded and what size drives I would imagine. Why not release info like that? Steam does it every so often when they release their survey reuslts of what the average user has hardware wise.

They used to release some info like that in the newsletters, but I can't remember the last one I saw. They could release so much of this info monthly or quarterly, but they are probably trying to sell it. I just think they are too quiet on everything especially insignifant data like this where they could be releasing it just to give people things to talk about.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> I just think they are too quiet on everything especially insignifant data like this where they could be releasing it just to give people things to talk about.


stop derailing this argument with good points


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

sbiller said:


> with the USPTO affirmation that TiVo's patents are still valid are huge news which portends that virtually every DVR on the market is infringing on TiVo's patents.


But will the DVR even be relevant with the proliferation of goggle and apple TV and other internet appliances? Plenty of other devices are bringing the internet to the television with as good or better interface than Tivo and at a much lower cost. If I have the option of watching the same programming through Netflix streaming or record it with Tivo to watch, then I would watch it on Netflix.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> oh yeah, good point on user profiles - that would be something useful to a wider range of folks. Likely they are all here in the forum though  I wonder where we could get some stats on how many folks actually upgrade the hard drive size and thus likely have a long list of shows across multiple TiVo DVRs.
> 
> I will readily agree that TiVo has a LONG list of suggestions given to it on tweaks and make overs that would make the TiVo experience much better.


you dont think people who buy the XL boxes off the shelf have long lists right out of the box? (well a few weeks after out of the box- but you know what i mean- lol)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> Yeah that article made little sense.
> 
> Apples to oranges.
> 
> And Tivo's local streaming, Netflix, Amazon on Demand etc aka Tivo's extra features don't compare to the same stuff on the ATV, for example.


my own 2 cents is that google is potentially about to shift the whole paradigm, much like apple did by making "apps" on a cellphone that became such a huge part of that whole industry and like apple is starting to do with the ipads and creating tablets. If google succeeds and most everything people watch is downloaded then who needs a dvr? If that were to come to be then Tivo has to be able to do much of what google does so that the parts they are missing can be overcome with the dvr abilities to give them a net win over the new paradigm.

The single biggest factor why I have cable tv is to be able to watch my baseball team on the local RSN. But MLB.TV and the rsn's are working on selling just the local games over the internet (and Roku already gets MLB.tv) . If google had an APP that got me my local baseball games, hulu plus is integrated, and then they come up with apps for CBS, a few kids channels for my kids, and the discovery and natgeo groups for me and the wife then just maybe I move my netflix straaming to the google box and never need a dvr again. Google just streams everything to me anytime i want- i dont even need to know in advance to schedule the recording. The only think that could stop me would be comcast's download caps.

Not sure it ever gets that far, but it seems it just might in the next few years.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

To answer the title, Google TV would have to be a HUGE failure (by Google Standards) in order to lose to Tivo. In during Tivo's best days, they never had anything close to Google success.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> To answer the title, Google TV would have to be a HUGE failure (by Google Standards) in order to lose to Tivo. In during Tivo's best days, they never had anything close to Google success.


I think Google has a much better chance of success with tv than tivo. that said google doesn't always hit home runs- some times they do strike out.

Off the top of my head there's Wave, buzz, selling ads for other mediums like print or tv, orkut- I might be off on one or two- but all of these aren't exactly spectacular successes.

Apple seems to hit plenty of home runs too- but they also have strike outs and they also have yet to figure out tv.

So who knows... I think Google COULD kick everyone's butt here, but they also very well could be an epic failure.


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## dturturro (Feb 1, 2002)

Maybe I'm naive or just lucky. I've had the Premiere XL for a while now. Besides the tuning adapter I can't complain abot the box. What are all the MAJOR flaws that everyone is referring to?


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

dturturro said:


> Maybe I'm naive or just lucky. I've had the Premiere XL for a while now. Besides the tuning adapter I can't complain abot the box. What are all the MAJOR flaws that everyone is referring to?


Just look around at the threads in the Premiere forum. There are lots.

The HD menus are unfinished. (not all menus in HD, can't use parental controls with HD menus, etc.)

Many of us have experienced freezes/reboots when using the HD menus, forcing us to switch back to SD menus.

The HD menus are sluggish.

There is an "out of memory" issues that causes Pandora/Netflix/Amazon/etc. to not work.

There are others as well. These are just the ones that have affected me. The worst part is that Tivo is completely unresponsive to the issues. The Premiere is more than 6 months old. Instead of working on these bugs they are introducing new features such as a Season Pass Manager Web Interface and Hulu integration.

Edited to add: You can bet that if Google TV is buggy, the issues will be fixed PRONTO!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> ...
> 
> Edited to add: You can bet that if Google TV is buggy, the issues will be fixed PRONTO!


I'm a big android fan- BUT-

in general I agree that google is way more on the ball then tivo, but "PRONTO" isn't exactly par for the course with android either. 3rd party APP's get fixed really fast but sometimes there are bugs in the OS or bundled apps that languish. Also when you toss in the 3rd party manufacturers and they can really slow down fixes. One prime example of complete tivo-esque screwup is the update from android OS 2.1 to 2.2 for the original Droid. It's bug riddled with exchange issues, lags, freezes, and reboots that would make tivo looks like a pro. all you get when you check the official moto forums and faq is 'yes we are aware and we're working with google and verizon to fix it in a future release.' the update was pushed in august and they just acknowledged the bugs the middle of October with no firm date of when the fix might come.

For me, my work phone that picks up my work email is way more mission critical than tivo so it's a bit more problematic there.

The first 3 OS updates kicked butt but this last one is a mess.

Also sometimes google really isn't that responsive to missing "features"- for example android has been supporting exchange natively for a year plus but yet you still can't move an email from your inbox to another folder with the native app. That's pretty much mobile email client 101 for the past 5 years or so yet they haven't implemented it yet. Maybe in Gingerbread coming out in the next few weeks, but it will still be months till that gets pushed to any devices.

So android rocks but it's not perfect.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I'm a big android fan- BUT-
> 
> in general I agree that google is way more on the ball then tivo, but "PRONTO" isn't exactly par for the course with android either. 3rd party APP's get fixed really fast but sometimes there are bugs in the OS or bundled apps that languish. Also when you toss in the 3rd party manufacturers and they can really slow down fixes. One prime example of complete tivo-esque screwup is the update from android OS 2.1 to 2.2 for the original Droid. It's bug riddled with exchange issues, lags, freezes, and reboots that would make tivo looks like a pro. all you get when you check the official moto forums and faq is 'yes we are aware and we're working with google and verizon to fix it in a future release.' the update was pushed in august and they just acknowledged the bugs the middle of October with no firm date of when the fix might come.
> 
> ...


I thought it was just me with my android phone. I've got a 2.1 image that I was thinking about reverting to, but haven't done so yet.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

aadam101 said:


> The worst part is that Tivo is completely unresponsive to the issues. The Premiere is more than 6 months old.


yes, because TiVo has only introduced a few OS updates since the release specifically to address issues


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes, because TiVo has only introduced a few OS updates since the release specifically to address issues


No doubt that TiVo needs more agility when it comes to releasing software patches and updates. The question comes down to a risk versus reward for TiVo. The potential consequences of releasing a software update that impacts the recording of user's shows is a lot riskier for TiVo than an update to Google TV or Roku that might only temporarily impact the ability for an end-user to stream some web content.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes, because TiVo has only introduced a few OS updates since the release specifically to address issues


Many of which are still unresolved for at least some users, as adam pointed out.


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## dturturro (Feb 1, 2002)

Maybe it's because I'm using the SD menus, but I've found the box to be very stable. The only issues I've had is with Netflix. Even that has only been 1 or 2 freezes. Judging on the usage I have, I can't complain.


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

dturturro said:


> *Maybe it's because I'm using the SD menus*, but I've found the box to be very stable. The only issues I've had is with Netflix. Even that has only been 1 or 2 freezes. Judging on the usage I have, I can't complain.


That would explain it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

aadam101 said:


> The worst part is that Tivo is completely unresponsive to the issues. The Premiere is more than 6 months old. Instead of working on these bugs they are introducing new features such as a Season Pass Manager Web Interface and Hulu integration.





slowbiscuit said:


> Many of which are still unresolved for at least some users, as adam pointed out.


Nope - Adam "pointed out" that TiVo was 'completely unresponsive' which is just a blatant overstatement just as your rebuttal was a blatant understatement*. I came along with the factual statement.

* just to help folks get it - the understatement was the "some people have problems as Adam pointed out" versus the fact Adam said "TiVo was completely unresponsive"


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> The reviewer only used one Tivo, so he missed the CCI byte fiasco that blindsided Tivo and allowed some cable companies to cripple MRV functionality. As more and more content becomes available on the internet, there will be a point that people won't choose Tivo because of the much higher cost. Tivo now has 2 competitors, the cable companies and google TV, instead of one.


 Google TV is a major miscalculation. Web content that is free is going to dry up or go behind pay walls. Tivo records google tv doesn't. Google Tv is an underpowered version of Windows Media Center (without the windows of course). Tivo's biggest enemy as always are the cable company DVR's that people rent, which is why some don't buy Tivo's in the first place.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

tenthplanet said:


> Google TV is a major miscalculation. Web content that is free is going to dry up or go behind pay walls. Tivo records google tv doesn't. Google Tv is an underpowered version of Windows Media Center (without the windows of course). Tivo's biggest enemy as always are the cable company DVR's that people rent, which is why some don't buy Tivo's in the first place.


google is just trying to get their toes wet. It's really not about the free nonsense.

What makes you think that they wont have pay apps like netflix, amazaon, hulu+ and the like on the google tv platform? I'm SURE they will have that when google tv starts getting apps. Netflix and Hulu already have said they are working on android versions- you think they are just going to be for 3 inch cell phones with android and ignore peoples living room tv's with android?

Who knows- but I suspect the end game here is that there's a bunch or a la carte "apps" on various platforms in the future. Just like netflix makes an "app" for so many things today. Saw an article that made sense about the big picture of the whole media ecosystem and the point was the said Google TV, MS (via xbox actually- not the media center), and Apple so far are seem to be the front runners because they have cellphone, tablet, and tv platforms- HP might be able to catch up with webos and figure out a tv play with it since MS lags the others with a phone OS. Blackberry seems to be dead since they can't keep up.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yes, and the point was made elsewhere that the networks may work on their own apps instead of relying on Hulu as an aggregator. This may be why they are blocking GoogleTV, at least temporarily.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yes, and the point was made elsewhere that the networks may work on their own apps instead of relying on Hulu as an aggregator. This may be why they are blocking GoogleTV, at least temporarily.


I always figured that FOX , ABC, and NBC calculated that it was cheaper to have one set of infrastructure that they would share the overhead on and that's why they did Hulu. I didn't understand why CBS bucked the trend.

But maybe they want more control then all playing nicely allows.

Thinking about it besides an app for the network (like CBS' current TV.Com app for anroid)- they might end up with an option as an "app" for each show (like CBS' android app just for survivor) Right now both are free but who knows what they cost in a year or if they have ads or if there's premium options to reduce comericals or who even knows....


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> I think Google has a much better chance of success with tv than tivo. that said google doesn't always hit home runs- some times they do strike out.
> 
> Off the top of my head there's Wave, buzz, selling ads for other mediums like print or tv, orkut- I might be off on one or two- but all of these aren't exactly spectacular successes.
> 
> ...


I agree. If google had created Tivo i think they would consider it a failure as the company stands today. They are not exactly a money maker....


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