# Roamio features that will (apparently) make their way to Premieres



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Going through the FAQs here, I see:



















(highlighting added by me.)

"Functionality is exactly the same," eh? So does this mean a 2-Tuner Premiere, along with a TiVo Stream (both of which I have,) will eventually allow me to do streaming away from home as well? Fingers crossed.

I also note this, and the curious wording:










That the note specifically mentions both TiVo Premiere as well as Premiere 4 Tuner makes me think that perhaps, now with dynamic tuner allocation, that a 2-Tuner Premiere might be able to connect to a TiVo Mini. Yes, I realize that they may be talking about one Premiere doing Multi-Room Streaming with another Premiere. But that this FAQ doesn't specifically note that a 4-Tuner Premiere is required to work with a Mini, makes me wonder, hopefully, if that is no longer a valid requirement.

Oh TiVo, please, don't screw this up for us. We've been disappointed for too long and I'm not going to buy a whole new TiVo (and deal with failing at transferring over my library of recordings) just to get features we should have had from the start.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Yes, the Stream uses the exact same transcoding chip that is used in the Roamio Plus and Pro models. The Tivo Stream will continue being a viable platform and will maintain feature parity with the integrated streaming chips in the newer Roamio.

In fact, the reviewers who tested the out of home streaming used the TiVo Stream with a special update that enabled it.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

That's good to hear. I have no plans to upgrade to a Roamio but if its release means my 2-Tuner Premiere with 2TB drive + TiVo Stream gets new features (outside streaming, and perhaps, compatibility with a TiVo Mini) then I'm a happy camper!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I wouldn't count on the compatibility with the Mini. The Mini was advertised heavily as requiring a 4 tuner TiVo, it was even printed on the box. So even with dynamic tuner allocation they may decide to hold the line on that one to entice people to upgrade.

Although I hope I'm wrong. I have a 4 tuner TiVo, but my wife is the one who uses the Mini most often and she has her own 2 tuner Premiere. It would be nicer for her if I could pair the Mini with her 2 tuner instead of it having to be paired to mine and then her having to go an extra menu deep to watch her shows.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

It's likely that the Mini will still require a 4 Tuner TiVo DVR to pair to. The relaxing of the language is probably due to the fact that TiVo no longer offers any DVRs that have less than 4 tuners, so they don't need to specify that anymore.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I wonder if the Premieres will get the DIAL (ie: Chromecast) ability that the Roamio has, too.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Highly unlikely, that requires the Opera Browser HTML5 framework and I can almost guarantee you that will not get within 100 yards of the Premiere.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Philmatic said:


> Highly unlikely, that requires the Opera Browser HTML5 framework and I can almost guarantee you that will not get within 100 yards of the Premiere.


Why?


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

Johncv said:


> Why?


Because the Premiere is a 3 year old device running an incredibly slow processor that can't possibly be tasked with running a browser. It couldn't even run the Flash UI well and that was designed and released with the Premiere.

HTML 5 has some significant CPU requirements, and the Roamio line satisfies those requirements, the Premiere does not.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I agree. We wont see any of the HTML5 based stuff back ported to the Premiere.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I guess the question really being asked then is, why does DIAL (essentially, the slinging of a URL for MP4-based video streaming from the receiver device) require an HTML5 framework?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I wonder what "Coming Soon" means in terms of real-world time intervals. This is TiVo we're talking about, remember.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I would think they would want to port the HTML5 apps to the Premier line. Is there a technical reason to prohibit that?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> I guess the question really being asked then is, why does DIAL (essentially, the slinging of a URL for MP4-based video streaming from the receiver device) require an HTML5 framework?


It doesn't require it. But the current AdobeAir based apps would all need to be updated to support it individually. TiVo hasn't really had the best luck with keeping those apps up to date which is why they are switching to HTML5 in the first place. With HTML5 the developers can reuse the same app for multiple platforms so it's much more likely to get updated.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> I would think they would want to port the HTML5 apps to the Premier line. Is there a technical reason to prohibit that?


The CPU in the Premiere doesn't have enough horsepower to run the browser needed to run HTML5 apps. The only reason it can even run the Flash apps is because there is a special part of the CPU designed specifically to run Flash, and even that is terrible.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Nice thread. I think it is time to put lifetime on my unused HD and sell it with my lifetime HDLX. The S3 technology needs to be replaced.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> It doesn't require it. But the current AdobeAir based apps would all need to be updated to support it individually. TiVo hasn't really had the best luck with keeping those apps up to date which is why they are switching to HTML5 in the first place. With HTML5 the developers can reuse the same app for multiple platforms so it's much more likely to get updated.


Right, I get that, but DIAL (the protocol behind Chromecast) isn't a front-facing app _per se_, it is a service running in the background. It merely needs to be running invisibly (like a daemon,) advertising its availability to the Chrome instances (and iOS/Android apps) on the network, so they can cast to it.

That being said, this is TiVo, and all bets are off when it comes to "what new features from Roamio make their way to the old Premiere line?" It's entirely feasible (and likely) that we'll get NOTHING.

Me, I'd be happy if all I got was the ability to use my Premiere and Stream outside the house.

If I could use a Mini with my 2-tuner Premiere, I'd be over the moon, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Philmatic said:


> In fact, the reviewers who tested the out of home streaming used the TiVo Stream with a special update that enabled it.


So one thing I'm not 100% sure on yet. Is it really only out-of-home *streaming* or is it streaming OR downloading?

Even within my house, I *usually* download a show, so I have faster skip around ability (but I then often watch the show WHILE it's downloading too). I do streaming sometimes.

I don't have a citation at the moment, but it seemed like I remember earlier reading different reviews disagreeing with each other about whether you could download outside the home or not.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> The CPU in the Premiere doesn't have enough horsepower to run the browser needed to run HTML5 apps. The only reason it can even run the Flash apps is because there is a special part of the CPU designed specifically to run Flash, and even that is terrible.


I suppose that surprises me - I know flash is a resource hog so I expected that it would handle the HTML apps better then the flash apps...

I know the processor performance is just below the iPhone 3GS.

When trying to open an App Store (or any individual app), the number of units deployed is a huge driver.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

mattack said:


> So one thing I'm not 100% sure on yet. Is it really only out-of-home *streaming* or is it streaming OR downloading?
> 
> Even within my house, I *usually* download a show, so I have faster skip around ability (but I then often watch the show WHILE it's downloading too). I do streaming sometimes.
> 
> I don't have a citation at the moment, but it seemed like I remember earlier reading different reviews disagreeing with each other about whether you could download outside the home or not.


I think the downloading would be dependent on whether or not the copyright bit is set, no different the the current limitations within the home. So it is both.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> Right, I get that, but DIAL (the protocol behind Chromecast) isn't a front-facing app _per se_, it is a service running in the background. It merely needs to be running invisibly (like a daemon,) advertising its availability to the Chrome instances (and iOS/Android apps) on the network, so they can cast to it.
> 
> That being said, this is TiVo, and all bets are off when it comes to "what new features from Roamio make their way to the old Premiere line?" It's entirely feasible (and likely) that we'll get NOTHING.


I don't think we'll get any of the special app features. I think we'll see the additional HD screens, DTA for Minis and maybe the slight aesthetic changes they made to the UI. But other then that expect all new features to be exclusive to the Roamio. TiVo is all about the upsell, that's what keeps them in business. (well and patent lawsuits )


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> I suppose that surprises me - I know flash is a resource hog so I expected that it would handle the HTML apps better then the flash apps...
> 
> I know the processor performance is just below the iPhone 3GS.
> 
> When trying to open an App Store (or any individual app), the number of units deployed is a huge driver.


You have to remember that on an iPhone there is no multi-tasking. Basically 100% of the resources are dedicated to whatever app is running in the foreground. A TiVo is the exact opposite. The vital background tasks for recording and streaming take priority over all else. The amount of resources dedicated to apps is miniscule.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> I don't think we'll get any of the special app features. I think we'll see the additional HD screens, DTA for Minis and maybe the slight aesthetic changes they made to the UI. But other then that expect all new features to be exclusive to the Roamio. TiVo is all about the upsell, that's what keeps them in business. (well and patent lawsuits )


Really? I don't see any sign that it's about the upsell. They lose substantial money on most of their hardware sales, and that money is never recouped for those folks (about half) that go monthly - they would be paying the same in any case. They do get some extra money from the likes of tivocommunity folks who go lifetime, but we're not their average customers.

I agree with your overall assessment of what's going to happen, but I think it's much more expense avoidance, and keeping focused on how things are changing than it is trying to sell replacement units units.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

dswallow said:


> I wonder what "Coming Soon" means in terms of real-world time intervals. This is TiVo we're talking about, remember.


If you consider Tivo's "coming soon" on the geologic time scale, you will *never* be disappointed!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

CrispyCritter said:


> Really? I don't see any sign that it's about the upsell. They lose substantial money on most of their hardware sales, and that money is never recouped for those folks (about half) that go monthly - they would be paying the same in any case. They do get some extra money from the likes of tivocommunity folks who go lifetime, but we're not their average customers.


Most people who buy a new TiVo pass their old one on to another customer, so TiVo ends up with two customers where they previously had one. Plus for lifetime units the revenue is written off after 4 years, so if they can get those customers to buy a new TiVo every 4 years then they get some new revenue on the books. In the long run it may not be a huge boon for them, but in the short term it's probably a big influx of cash.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Most people who buy a new TiVo pass their old one on to another customer, so TiVo ends up with two customers where they previously had one. Plus for lifetime units the revenue is written off after 4 years, so if they can get those customers to buy a new TiVo every 4 years then they get some new revenue on the books. In the long run it may not be a huge boon for them, but in the short term it's probably a big influx of cash.


66 months.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Hmmm... Has it always been that high? Or did they extend it when they raised the price of lifetime?


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Hmmm... Has it always been that high? Or did they extend it when they raised the price of lifetime?


Effective November 1, 2011, we have extended the period we use to recognize product lifetime subscription revenues from 60 months to 66 months for product lifetime subscriptions.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

sbiller said:


> Effective November 1, 2011, we have extended the period we use to recognize product lifetime subscription revenues from 60 months to 66 months for product lifetime subscriptions.


Yes, and it was 48 months for a long time before the 60 months and I think I remember 3 years when they first started.

I've never known whether this was a change demanded by the accountants, or whether it was TiVo wanting to lessen the number of non-paying subscriptions they report to the analysts every quarter. The shorter time periods were an advantage during the period where they had to show some capability of breaking even (ie, before any court settlements).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

OK I remember it being 4 years somewhere along the lines. I don't pay that close of attention to it, so I didn't realize it had gone up (twice) since then.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

From TiVo's most recent 10K,



> We perform a quarterly quantitative and qualitative analysis of the expected life of a product lifetime subscription which incorporates historical and future churn rates.





> We offer a product lifetime subscription option to the TiVo service that commits us to provide the TiVo service for as long as the DVR is in service. We receive product lifetime subscription fees for the TiVo service in advance and amortize these fees as subscription revenue over 66 months for product lifetime subscriptions which is our current estimate of the service life of the DVR. If these product lifetime subscriptions use the DVR for longer than anticipated, we will incur costs such as telecommunications and customer support costs without a corresponding subscription revenue stream and therefore will be required to fund ongoing costs of service from other sources, such as advertising revenue. Additionally, if these product lifetime subscriptions use the DVR for longer than the period in which we recognize revenue, our average revenue per subscription ("ARPU") for our TiVo-Owned subscriptions will be negatively impacted as we continue to count these customers as subscriptions without corresponding subscription revenue thus lowering our average revenues across our TiVo-Owned subscription base. As of January 31, 2013, we had approximately 194,000 product lifetime subscriptions that had exceeded the 66 month period we use to recognize product lifetime subscription revenues and had made contact with the TiVo service within the prior six-month period. We will continue to monitor the useful life of a TiVo-enabled DVR and the impact of higher churn, increased competition, and compatibility of our existing TiVo units with high-definition programming. Future results will allow us to determine if our useful life is shorter or longer than currently estimated, in which case we may revise the estimated life and we would recognize revenues from this source over a shorter or longer period.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Nice comparison chart at weaknees, seems to be more thorough (and accurate!) than even TiVo's own comparison spec chart.

https://www.weaknees.com/tivo-roamio-comparison.php

Looking at the base TiVo Roamio, that doesn't have the built-in Streaming capability, the "Mobile Streaming" section says "In Home: Requires optional TiVo Stream." It doesn't list "Out of home" at all (while the Plus and Pro models say "Capable, coming soon.")










So does this mean the base Roamio w/Stream won't be able to do out of home streaming?
If not then that means the Premieres w/Stream would have no hope for it either.

So what's the deal with out of home streaming? Which models will actually get that feature, once it is out?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Tivo said all Streams will get out of home streaming. The early reviewers got a special Stream update to test it, in fact, since the built-in streaming wasn't ready.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Excellent, I've seen similar reports, and am happy/relieved once again.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

I'm doubtful but I'd sure be happy if the Premieres got the DIAL/Chromecast functionality. That can't be too computationally intensive, all it is doing is receiving a video's URL to stream... right?

TiVo's Chief Design Officer, Margret Schmidt tweeted today that a Fall update is coming to the Premiere:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/377883000697933824
I'm curious to know what that update will bring.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Fofer said:


> I'm curious to know what that update will bring.


I'm somehow pretty sure it won't bring and end to SD menus.


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## mdscott (Jun 26, 2002)

dswallow said:


> I'm somehow pretty sure it won't bring and end to SD menus.


I would be happy if there one or two fewer of them...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Fofer said:


> I'm curious to know what that update will bring.


My guess... DTA for the Mini. HD Wish Lists. What To Watch Now. Bug fixes.

We "might" get the new Netflix app, since it's apparently still Flash. I don't think we'll get any HTML5 stuff though, so no new YouTube. DIAL is also a maybe. They may hold that back just because it's an exclusive feature of the Roamio, not because there is any technical limitation preventing it. In fact the same might be true of the new Netflix app too.

However I'd love to be proven wrong and for the Premiere to get more features.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Dan203 said:


> DIAL is also a maybe. They may hold that back just because it's an exclusive feature of the Roamio, not because there is any technical limitation preventing it.


I'd be thrilled if this were so. Bye-bye Chromecast.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Beryl said:


> I'd be thrilled if this were so. Bye-bye Chromecast.


Me too. One less TV input change. I'd leave it on TiVo's by default all the time. Casting is best when the TV's always ready for it.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

Chromecast will be offered by Google to TV OEMs for free or so cheap they can't refuse.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Or those TV OEMs will just implement DIAL:
http://www.dial-multiscreen.org/

(Some TV manufacturers already have, and they work with YouTube and Netflix already...)

That's what Chromecast is. A DIAL dongle. I suspect I'll get rid of mine when my other set top boxes (TiVo? Roku?) integrate DIAL.


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