# Adjusting the Tivo clock manually



## tgmct

Back in 2013 there was a thread with the same title. Unfortunately the thread went terribly off topic and it really got confusing trying to identify the possible fixes.

First, let's review the problem... Everybody involved with delivering TV content uses the same time standards using NTP that is traceable all the way back to the atomic clocks at the Naval Observatory. Everybody's equipment is within a couple of milliseconds of the standard. This includes the TiVo time adjustment pushed out to your DVR, the television networks, and the cable companies. BUT there is a delay in the time that actual programming gets from the TV network, through the cable company, all the way out to you. There are a number of valid technical reasons why this takes place but this is really out of scope for this discussion. The fact is that it happens with virtually all cable carriers and typically causes the TiVo DVR's to startup some number of SECONDS BEFORE the TV signal is available for the programming desired. 

OK, you may say that skipping through a few seconds of content from the previous show may be a nuisance, but it's something that most of us can deal with. The real problem is at the other end of the recording. The TiVo not only starts up early but it also stops early. So you certainly can't view content that isn't recorded. In the old days this wasn't much of a problem where most of the content at the end of a show was advertising. But the networks have gotten smart and are now avoiding ads at the end of their programs with the hope that you will not switch when you get a taste of the next program that is starting. 

Now this delay is pretty much repeatable on all channels and I have yet to experience any drift over many years on a few different TiVos. But not every cable system has the same delay, so it really needs to be adjustable at the end user location. As of today, there is still no configurable way of compensating for this delay in the TiVo settings that I'm aware of. So what are the alternatives?...

1. Add and extra minute or so to the stop time of all your recordings and OnePasses. This sort of works OK for a while until you run out of tuners on your TiVo. I have an Elite with four (4) tuners and I must say that I end up with a fair amount of recordings that end up being clipped due to not enough tuners being available. The bottom line is that this would almost never happen if the need to add extra time to every recording was not necessary. The bottom line is that this is a poor solution that fails often and one we shouldn't really be required to deal with.

2. Get our good friends at TiVo to add a new configuration setting to allow adjustment of the local TiVo time. Well, I've certainly suggested this to TiVo support but so far they are reluctant to even admit there is an issue. When you are lucky enough to get somebody that understands the issue (and is probably familiar with it anyway); they point you to item #1 to 'solve' your problem. It seems to me that the good folks at TiVo are probably well aware with this issue and have been reluctant to provide any 'fix' for this other than what we have already because of the support issues it could potentially generate. Some users would not necessarily understand the configurable and would call support to ask questions regarding what it for. BUT... I suspect TiVo management would be much more inclined to do something about it if enough people contacted them and complained. So what is the threshold of 'enough'?... Good question. I suspect that this could be bandied about pretty good in this thread.

3. Come up with a reliable hack to fix it for ourselves. This obviously requires varying levels of expertise but it seems doable. But there are a variety of issues that come up surrounding this. Any hardware modifications should be avoided so that warranties don't get impacted and to generally reduce the need of acquiring parts and/or costly hardware modification equipment. But if a software fix is in order, then it needs to be as easy and semi-permanent as possible. What I mean by this is that it would be best if we we could get by with some sort of key combination on the remote, but I suspect that this is unavailable currently. I've read about old hacks involving removing the drive and booting it up on a linux based pc. Not necessarily a bad way to go, but difficult for most users who don't know what linux is let alone any knowledge of it, and most don't have a clue how to remove a hard drive and connect it let alone configure it to be accessed on another machine. Not an out of the question modification for some of us though BUT, BUT, BUT... we certainly don't want to do this every time that TiVo sends out a service update!

I can't think of any other potential fixes but I certainly don't know everything. Lets see what the masses here think...


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## lew

tgmct said:


> Back in 2013 there was a thread with the same title. Unfortunately the thread went terribly off topic and it really got confusing trying to identify the possible fixes.
> 
> First, let's review the problem... Everybody involved with delivering TV content uses the same time standards using NTP that is traceable all the way back to the atomic clocks at the Naval Observatory. Everybody's equipment is within a couple of milliseconds of the standard. This includes the TiVo time adjustment pushed out to your DVR, the television networks, and the cable companies. BUT there is a delay in the time that actual programming gets from the TV network, through the cable company, all the way out to you. There are a number of valid technical reasons why this takes place but this is really out of scope for this discussion. The fact is that it happens with virtually all cable carriers and typically causes the TiVo DVR's to startup some number of SECONDS BEFORE the TV signal is available for the programming desired.
> 
> OK, you may say that skipping through a few seconds of content from the previous show may be a nuisance, but it's something that most of us can deal with. The real problem is at the other end of the recording. The TiVo not only starts up early but it also stops early. So you certainly can't view content that isn't recorded. In the old days this wasn't much of a problem where most of the content at the end of a show was advertising. But the networks have gotten smart and are now avoiding ads at the end of their programs with the hope that you will not switch when you get a taste of the next program that is starting.
> 
> Now this delay is pretty much repeatable on all channels and I have yet to experience any drift over many years on a few different TiVos. But not every cable system has the same delay, so it really needs to be adjustable at the end user location. As of today, there is still no configurable way of compensating for this delay in the TiVo settings that I'm aware of. So what are the alternatives?...
> 
> 1. Add and extra minute or so to the stop time of all your recordings and OnePasses. This sort of works OK for a while until you run out of tuners on your TiVo. I have an Elite with four (4) tuners and I must say that I end up with a fair amount of recordings that end up being clipped due to not enough tuners being available. The bottom line is that this would almost never happen if the need to add extra time to every recording was not necessary. The bottom line is that this is a poor solution that fails often and one we shouldn't really be required to deal with.
> 
> 2. Get our good friends at TiVo to add a new configuration setting to allow adjustment of the local TiVo time. Well, I've certainly suggested this to TiVo support but so far they are reluctant to even admit there is an issue. When you are lucky enough to get somebody that understands the issue (and is probably familiar with it anyway); they point you to item #1 to 'solve' your problem. It seems to me that the good folks at TiVo are probably well aware with this issue and have been reluctant to provide any 'fix' for this other than what we have already because of the support issues it could potentially generate. Some users would not necessarily understand the configurable and would call support to ask questions regarding what it for. BUT... I suspect TiVo management would be much more inclined to do something about it if enough people contacted them and complained. So what is the threshold of 'enough'?... Good question. I suspect that this could be bandied about pretty good in this thread.
> 
> 3. Come up with a reliable hack to fix it for ourselves. This obviously requires varying levels of expertise but it seems doable. But there are a variety of issues that come up surrounding this. Any hardware modifications should be avoided so that warranties don't get impacted and to generally reduce the need of acquiring parts and/or costly hardware modification equipment. But if a software fix is in order, then it needs to be as easy and semi-permanent as possible. What I mean by this is that it would be best if we we could get by with some sort of key combination on the remote, but I suspect that this is unavailable currently. I've read about old hacks involving removing the drive and booting it up on a linux based pc. Not necessarily a bad way to go, but difficult for most users who don't know what linux is let alone any knowledge of it, and most don't have a clue how to remove a hard drive and connect it let alone configure it to be accessed on another machine. Not an out of the question modification for some of us though BUT, BUT, BUT... we certainly don't want to do this every time that TiVo sends out a service update!
> 
> I can't think of any other potential fixes but I certainly don't know everything. Lets see what the masses here think...


I don't agree with your premise. I have Fios. Network shows start and stop recording correctly. I understand our cable company gets the signal via fiber optic cable directly from the station and not via satellite. I do experience the delay you mention on some cable channels. I don't know, nor care, if the difference is due to satellite delay or if is an intentional run on between shows aired in a block.

Tivo listened to customers. Tivo implemented a solution. They added "soft padding". Fudging the clock is going to cause as many problems as it solves.

In my case the only shows that have the issue are with cable shows,which air multiple times. If necessary I'll record a later showing so as to avoid conflicts.

I understand you'd prefer a different solution but I doubt you'll be seeing one.


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## bikegeek

An adjustment factor from Tivo would be great. That way I don't have to see the last 30 seconds of the previous show every time I watch a recorded show.


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## NorthAlabama

i very rarely see any issues, and when they happen they can generally be traced back to a specific channel/program (using comcast).

is this happening daily to your recordings, across all channels?


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## tgmct

lew said:


> Tivo listened to customers. Tivo implemented a solution. They added "soft padding". Fudging the clock is going to cause as many problems as it solves.


Are you sure about this? If they added soft padding I've yet to see any effect. I've had TiVos since early S2 and no changes with the recording timing issues I mentioned in the first post. Now, I've only had Comcast as a provider although in several locations with different head ends.



> In my case the only shows that have the issue are with cable shows, which air multiple times. If necessary I'll record a later showing so as to avoid conflicts.


In some cases this will work but it requires manual intervention. TiVo will automatically record a later showing of the same episode but only if the entire broadcast is impacted by OnePass priorities. If only clipping is involved, it will just clip it and NOT select a later time.

This is also true if you have multiple shows record from the same channel but run out of tuners for some reason. For example, I add an hour of padding to the CBS's Sunday night lineup shows where there is a pretty good chance that sports programming will run overtime. If you have enough tuners you will duplicate, which is OK; but if not, TiVo will simply clip the hour off, so you have to be very careful to watch things in order and keep the previous program until you watch the combination recorded. As it is, I already have these shows at the top of the OnePass priority list where they won't be repeated for months. But clipping functionality is not always a priority. BTW... this rationale does not work if one of the episodes gets clipped and one of them is a repeat and will not record because you've already seen it. A new show episode is useless with the first half missing. Not an everyday issue, but usually occurs once or twice a year.


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## Diana Collins

lew said:


> I don't agree with your premise. I have Fios. Network shows start and stop recording correctly. I understand our cable company gets the signal via fiber optic cable directly from the station and not via satellite. I do experience the delay you mention on some cable channels. I don't know, nor care, if the difference is due to satellite delay or if is an intentional run on between shows aired in a block.
> 
> Tivo listened to customers. Tivo implemented a solution. They added "soft padding". Fudging the clock is going to cause as many problems as it solves.
> 
> In my case the only shows that have the issue are with cable shows,which air multiple times. If necessary I'll record a later showing so as to avoid conflicts.
> 
> I understand you'd prefer a different solution but I doubt you'll be seeing one.


We too have Verizon FiOS and see this issue quite regularly. I don't believe that programs scheduled for a certain time, say 9PM, actually start at 9:00:00 PM. Comedy Central, in particular, ALWAYS seems to both start and end late. We have resorted to the "fix" of making "Stop 1 minute later" the default setting on our TiVos. Since we have 2 Roamio Pros we don't often have a tuner shortage problem (except on Sunday nights during certain times of the year), but it does make trying to calculate tuner availability a bit more complicated.

TiVo does NOT do any sort of "soft" (i.e. automatically managed) padding. DirecTV DVRs do and it was the biggest difference we had to adjust to when we switched to FiOS and TiVos. For the first few weeks we missed the last 30 seconds or so of nearly EVERY recording.

Personally, I don't think we need to change the clock - just add a "Start 1 minute late" option to the 'start early' options.


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## MHunter1

One simple fix TiVo could implement is adding options to pad recordings with 15 or 30 seconds instead of one minute. I dont want a systemwide clock adjustment because the problem is only severe enough to notice on certain channels. I'd rather miss a few seconds of a lower priority conflicting show than a full minute.

I've submitted this idea as a feature request numerous times and I'm confused why TiVo can't simply add a couple more entries to the existing padding options.

--------------------------------------------------

Feature request form:
http://advisors.tivo.com/wix5/p2272893819.aspx

I wish my TiVo could do this:
Add 15 or 30 seconds of padding to scheduled recordings.

Here is the reason why:
Programs on certain channels, such as Discovery and History, are consistently cut off at the last 10 seconds as final narration is still in progress. I want to pad programs on these problematic channels with just a few extra seconds rather than a full minute.


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## tgmct

MHunter1 said:


> One simple fix TiVo could implement is adding options to pad recordings with 15 or 30 seconds instead of one minute. I dont want a systemwide clock adjustment because the problem is only severe enough to notice on certain channels. I'd rather miss a few seconds of a lower priority conflicting show than a full minute.


This is actually a good solution but lets take it a step further... How about a pad setting of "Custom" and then allow the user to set it to anything in say the range of 0 seconds all the way up to 999 minutes - 59 seconds. There are some standard programming libraries out there that have this functionality and the screen graphics too.



> I've submitted this idea as a feature request numerous times and I'm confused why TiVo can't simply add a couple more entries to the existing padding options.


I really don't understand why TiVo doesn't act on a lot more feature requests. There are a lot of DVRs available out there for less money. So it makes sense for TiVo to do it better instead of playing catch up. As a minimum they need to market a DVR that has all of the features of DVR's available from TV providers plus some. It's not just the amount of tuners and storage space.


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## astrohip

lew said:


> Tivo listened to customers. Tivo implemented a solution. They added "soft padding". Fudging the clock is going to cause as many problems as it solves.


No, what TiVo has is hard padding. The ability to manually add minutes before or after a recording. That's hard padding.

Soft padding is where the DVR attempts to automatically add a minute before & after a recording if there is no tuner conflict. DirecTV does this. (And I love it! Wish my TiVos had it)


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## telemark

It's possible to modify the Tivo system clock by rewriting the network / NTP traffic.

(this requires a router that can do redirects)


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## ej42137

MHunter1 said:


> One simple fix TiVo could implement is adding options to pad recordings with 15 or 30 seconds instead of one minute. I don't want a systemwide clock adjustment because the problem is only severe enough to notice on certain channels. I'd rather miss a few seconds of a lower priority conflicting show than a full minute.
> 
> I've submitted this idea as a feature request numerous times and I'm confused why TiVo can't simply add a couple more entries to the existing padding options.


What would be the benefit of padding only 15 or 30 seconds instead of a full minute? Padding of *any* amount will cause a tuner conflict, so it wouldn't help you make any more recording; the only benefit would be to 45 seconds less recording space per recording at the cost of a more complicated user interface. I don't see that you've made a business case for such an enhancement.


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## Worf

Actually, stations generally do start on time. However, cable stations when they do their digital channel encoding, the encoder adds 5-10 seconds lag to the feed. If it comes from a satellite rather than fiber optic, it could add another 5 seconds to the delay. If it travels over the public IP network like the Internet, that could be another 2-3 seconds of buffering.

Or if you use satellite, another 5 seconds delay.

You can easily tell this during a major sporting event - Olympics, Super Bowl, etc. Go out on the street, and listen to the cheers. You'll usually catch at least two distinct waves of cheering depending on how they get their TV - first the OTA crowd cheers, then the cable, then the phone companies and satellite folks. 

The real problem is that stations are doing anti-DVR things - like eliminating the block of ads between the end of the program and the start of the next program, instead butting them up. Some even intentionally delay the start and end of a show by a minute or lie about their starting and ending times. E.g., if it says it runs 9:00-10:00, they'll actually start at 8:59 and end at 10:01 and not actually announce it.


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## lew

astrohip said:


> No, what TiVo has is hard padding. The ability to manually add minutes before or after a recording. That's hard padding.
> 
> Soft padding is where the DVR attempts to automatically add a minute before & after a recording if there is no tuner conflict. DirecTV does this. (And I love it! Wish my TiVos had it)


Tivo implemented soft padding differently then DirecTV. Tivo will let you clip the lower priority show if there is a conflict.


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## astrohip

lew said:


> Tivo implemented soft padding differently then DirecTV. Tivo will let you clip the lower priority show if there is a conflict.


Ok semantics. I don't think anyone here would call that soft padding.

But you are correct, TiVo does have clipping available, and the option to turn it on or off.


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## Diana Collins

lew said:


> Tivo implemented soft padding differently then DirecTV. Tivo will let you clip the lower priority show if there is a conflict.


"Clipping" is the opposite of "padding." In padding you ADD time, in clipping you CUT it off.

TiVos do NOT do soft padding.


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## lew

Diana Collins said:


> "Clipping" is the opposite of "padding." In padding you ADD time, in clipping you CUT it off.
> 
> TiVos do NOT do soft padding.


astrohip understands my point. Astohip doesn't think tivo's implementation of padding and clipping is a form of soft padding. There isn't a definitive definition of soft padding. We can disagree.

Your statement is wrong.

Assume I have 2 tuners. I'm recording 2 shows at 9p. I'm recording a lower priority show at 8p. I've added 2 minutes to the 8p show.

Old system. Hard padding. There are 3 shows scheduled to record between 9 and 9:02. Tivo won't record the lowest priority show.

Astrohip's definition of soft padding. My 8p show consists of 60 minutes of show and 2 minutes soft padding. The 2 minute padding will be skipped. My recording will be 60 minutes.

Tivo's current system. My recording is scheduled to be 62 minutes. 60 minutes via the program data plus 2 minutes padding. Clipping means the last 2 minutes won't be recorded. My recording will be the same 60 minutes.

The result is the same, not opposite.

Worf identified the real issue. The delay varies depending on program source. Some stations have satellite delay. Some programs intentionally go over. The only reliable solution is to purchase more tuners. There isn't an automatic solution which works. Some shows blend into the next time slot. Many don't. Some shows begin with "previously....". Some shows end with coming attraction and even commercials.

My point is tivo offered a solution which has valid reasons.

I wish tivo offered an "advanced settings" menu. Let people customize padding options. Give us the option to have negative padding. Start a show late or end early. No doubt we could come up with a dozen features which make sense to some users.


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## bradleys

The main broadcast - let me call them first tier channels rarely offset programming. The lower tier channels like Comedy Central do it on purpose. Spoofing the clock might work on one channel, but not others. 

You would need the ability to create a default offset by channel...


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## astrohip

lew said:


> astrohip understands my point. Astohip doesn't think tivo's implementation of padding and clipping is a form of soft padding. There isn't a definitive definition of soft padding. We can disagree.
> <snip>
> Astrohip's definition of soft padding. My 8p show consists of 60 minutes of show and 2 minutes soft padding. The 2 minute padding will be skipped. My recording will be 60 minutes.


No, that's not at all what I said. I said "semantics", because you're using the phrase differently than how all the rest of us use it (and I do mean ALL the rest of us). It was a polite way of saying it ain't soft padding, but if you want to think it is, ok.

But it's clipping, not padding.

TiVos don't do soft padding. If you hard pad a show, and clipping cuts it, then clipping cut it. It's not a backdoor soft padding. And that's not semantics.


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## Diana Collins

lew said:


> astrohip understands my point. Astohip doesn't think tivo's implementation of padding and clipping is a form of soft padding. There isn't a definitive definition of soft padding. We can disagree.
> 
> Your statement is wrong.


As used by Myth, DirecTV, Dish Network and Arris, "soft padding" is a feature that adds time to the start and/or end of a recording *automatically*, if possible (i.e. there are no other demands for the tuner in use).

TiVo does not do soft padding, they do hard padding (you, the user decides how much time to add) and hard clipping (the TiVo ignores your time extension) if there is another request for that tuner, and assuming you don't select "No, cancel the lower priority program" under Overlap Protection.

The result is not the same...with soft padding I don't have to do anything to get my recordings padded. The DVR manages it intelligently.


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## unitron

Diana Collins said:


> As used by Myth, DirecTV, Dish Network and Arris, "soft padding" is a feature that adds time to the start and/or end of a recording *automatically*, if possible (i.e. there are no other demands for the tuner in use).
> 
> TiVo does not do soft padding, they do hard padding (you, the user decides how much time to add) and hard clipping (the TiVo ignores your time extension) if there is another request for that tuner, and assuming you don't select "No, cancel the lower priority program" under Overlap Protection.
> 
> The result is not the same...with soft padding I don't have to do anything to get my recordings padded. The DVR manages it intelligently.


Thank you for that clear and straightforward explanation. :up:


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## myklbear

I am on Optimum.
EVERY digital non Basic program ( that should start at hour/half) starts 12 seconds late. EVERY!
I can be on Basic watch program start and go to digital and wait seconds for start.
This is simply an electronics factor of time required to recode channel into multi channel digital stream, distribute and then time to decode back to single channel. It, at this time, seems pretty constant at 12 sec on OOL. Go check. Even longer delta from OTA.
To offer a delay pad that would affect all programs in seconds up to X should not be a significant task. ( Time + X from clock (that is not visible....LOL)
EVERY show I watch starts late 12 secs. and to pad I have to add 1 minute because Tivo has never listened to this constant complaint.
Yes i know with six tuners it should not be a problem with all that storage but it is a significant annoyance that is long overdue to be fixed.
As a reality example... I do NOT want to see Sharpton at beginning of Matthews, and i don't want to go to Hayes to see end of Matthews editorial. (Note not prejudice, just abhor Sharpton) (also note I record Hayes also and Maddow) BUT it is an aggrevation and inconvenience to have to pieces program back together on what should be a state of art product trying to gain larger foothold in market.
Tho I am new to Tivo I used Replay for years and remember some featzures still not available on Tivo like auto delay start of registered program, and of course commercial skip without many many button presses.
I also compare to many years of SA DVR. I also have experience with analog and digital HDHOMRUN with CableCards. Of course Tivo has many contemporary and great features but does not seem forward thinking enough to warrant their pricing for the masses without listening and developing quicker.


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## myklbear

Sorry, I went back and reread the thread and found that what Diana says about soft and hard padding is what I am talking about to some degree. 
Soft padding will start and stop from cues provided by broadcast. Like my TVReplay would do on Sunday nights on CBS.
Hard padding is strictly time based and starts/ends programs strictly (and outside reality).
If Tivo cannot program soft padding, they need to provide an Advanced user a way to start modifying hard padding to meet the realities of technologies.


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## bittmann

On my old Series1, I used the "endpad" app with a "negative 10 second" begin- and end-adjustment to handle this very thing - was tired of the last 5-8 seconds of every other show being cut off. Both the start and stop of the recording was set back by 10 seconds, no recordings were clipped, everything "just worked", and most importantly -- The Wife was happy. 

That is on Cable, however, where multiple re-encoding of video streams during transmission can legitimately introduce several seconds of delay. Haven't needed to do it when recording Over The Air with my new Roamio -- and it's a good thing, since tweaking the Roamio isn't easy (to put things mildly).

So I can add my voice to this as well - I would *love* to see a setting that was a simple time offset for the recording clock. Not soft-padding, hard-padding, or any such thing - just a setting that says e.g. "clock may be locked to x, but start/stop the recordings based on the offset of x+y". That way, you could tweak the system to delay start by 5-10 seconds, and always catch the final punchline...all without breaking anything else that the box does.

By my way of thinking - I'd much rather lose the first 3 seconds of a show as opposed to the last 10. And I'd much rather just "slide" the show instead of padding in order to avoid tuner conflicts and loss of ability to record the following programs.

BittMann


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## myklbear

Is this not something that interests more people?


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## philhu

Yes it does, I started the original thread years ago. I gave up on this getting implemented.


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## videobruce

> I really don't understand why TiVo doesn't act on a lot more feature requests. There are a lot of DVRs available out there for less money. So it makes sense for TiVo to do it better instead of playing catch up. As a minimum they need to market a DVR that has all of the features of DVR's available from TV providers plus some. It's not just the amount of tuners and storage space.


Simple; because they don't have to since 'by hook or by crook' they acquired most all the patents related to DVR's and have stifled the competition. What little there is, is hand tied.


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## HerronScott

videobruce said:


> Simple; because they don't have to since 'by hook or by crook' they acquired most all the patents related to DVR's and have stifled the competition. What little there is, is hand tied.


By "hook or crook"? How did TiVo manage to do that illegally as you are implying and how are they stifling competition? They did have court cases for compensation for their patents where competitors were infringing but that does not stifle competition.

And they certainly don't have all the patents related to DVR's as you are stating.

Scott


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## videobruce

The term was "most", not "all". 
It stifles competitors causing them to be afraid to bring products out or to try to enhance what they already, fearing lawsuits for some 'twist' in some fine print somewhere from one of the patents TiVo 'acquired' one way or the other.

The dismal selection of DVR's available, or should I say not available is graphic proof this market is at a standstill and has been.


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## jrtroo

Acquired is different than initiated or created. Also, do you have evidence that Tivo refused to license their patents at a reasonable fee? Its not like AT&T with their transistor patent, they were never in that kind of profitable, market dominant position.


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## HerronScott

videobruce said:


> The term was "most", not "all".
> It stifles competitors causing them to be afraid to bring products out or to try to enhance what they already, fearing lawsuits for some 'twist' in some fine print somewhere from one of the patents TiVo 'acquired' one way or the other.
> 
> The dismal selection of DVR's available, or should I say not available is graphic proof this market is at a standstill and has been.


The phrase you used was "most all" which would point to almost all of them which isn't even close to being valid. Also TiVo didn't "acquire" the patents by buying other companies. Their patents are from their own inventions just as other companies have patents on new ideas and products that they create.

The current state of the retail DVR market has nothing to do with TiVo's DVR patents. Several companies including Replay, Microsoft and Moxi have had retail DVR's and eventually decided the market was not big or profitable enough to keep producing products. Their decisions to exit the market had anything to do with TiVo's patents.

Scott


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## timon0x31

Please lets stay on topic and not start talking about patents. It's the way it is and there is nothing we can do about it.

I've read those that say you can fix this with padding. For those please reread what the issue is and understand it. This problem has NOTHING TO DO WITH PADDING. It's not a padding issue. It's a technical issue caused when cable or satellite companies transcode the broadcasts from the providers.

I'm going to go through two different scenarios, broadcast and Satellite content providers. Note the Satellite content provider is not to be confused with Dish or Direct. It's the actual provider such as CNN, TNT or HBO.

Over the Air (OTA) Providers, i.e., local stations.
The original broadcast provider transmits the program contend and it's in sync with the the time standard.

If you're TiVo pickings up the OTA broadcast and since your TiVo and the station are in sync everything records correctly.

Satellite Providers.
The original provider transmits it's programming via satellite. Since the satellites are in orbit it takes 0.28 seconds for the round trip. From there is could be broadcast to your TiVo over the air. Examples of this is ION which in many areas is broadcast OTA.​In both cases the delay time is so small that you never notice that TiVo is actually recording early. For normal OTA it's only a few milliseconds, for satellite it's only an additional 0.28 seconds. So far it's a non issue.

Now lets toss in what happen back when we had simple analog cable.

You cable provider would take the signal from the receiver and send it down an analog channel. This only takes a fraction of a second so again you never noticed it.

Now move to present time. There are now so many channels that cable and satellite companies started running out of room for all of the content they want to provide. So what did they do? The started compressing. Since we're talking digital compressing requires Transcoding. What it Transcoding? Here is the Wikipedia definition.



> *Transcoding* is the direct analog-to-analog or digital-to-digital conversion of one encoding to another, such as for movie data files (e.g., PAL, SECAM, NTSC), audio files (e.g., MP3, WAV), or character encoding (e.g., UTF-8, ISO/IEC 8859).


The problem with transcoding is that it take time, lots of time in in the order of seconds. If you ever transcoded video files you know how ling that can take. In this case they are doing it in realtime so any transcoding till delay the content by several seconds.

What was this not a problem with the original content provider? Because they don't transcode in real time, it's all done before they transmit or at least accounted for.

So back to our TiVo problem. When your TiVo gets the content from say Comcast or TimeWarner it's been delayed by several seconds after the original provider sent it. True some of that time was because it came from the original provider via satellite but that delay was only 0.28 seconds. The major delay was due to transcoding.

Padding on TiVo only makes the issue worse. The ONLY way that you can fix the issue is for the TiVo to think that delay never happen. The only way it can do that is to delay the TiVo clock by the same amount that the transcoding takes.

The simple way to do this is for TiVo to modify the NTP Damon so it delays time for the whole TiVo OS. This should work well enough for us to not notice the error.

There is another way but this one is tricky and needs a Firewall. One could intercepts TiVo's NTP traffic and delay it. Not something most people know how to do.

Note I said the simple way. It's entirely possible that some channels take longer to transcode than others. If that's the case you'll still see some delay but by a much smaller amount. If you want to correct this then you'll need to just for every channel but I don't think it's worth it.

Here's a question, why doesn't TW or Comcast have this issue with their DVR? I bet they either run their own NTP servers or they delay it inside the DVR.

So TiVo engineers, we know that many of you are on this board and I'll assume that you understand this issue by now. How about coming up with a fix? We all know that the simple one is to just modify the NTP Damon to add delay when updating the OS clock. This however could have undesired negative effects on other OS processes. The better place would be in the scheduling module so the rest of the OS is unaffected.


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## timon0x31

After posting my last post I reread the first post and something bothered me.

Does the TiVo use NTP internally using the standard NTP Damon or does it only get time corrections when it does it's daily connection?

If it only does it daily then TiVo has totally screwed up BIG TIME and needs to fix that by using the NTP Damon.

I'm having a time sync issue but I'll post that in another thread.


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## telemark

In my approximation model, there's 3 channel paths, so variation in sources and amount of delay.

The transcoding you mentioned, is there for statistical multiplexing, so I refer to it as that.

Satellite to Head end = compression, uplink, downlink, multiplex.
Locals to Head end = multiplex.
Locals to DVR = none / minimal.

I haven't measured how much but I do think they're noticeably offset.

One fix for the variance is to keep OTA on one DVR and satellite uplinked cable on another DVR.


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## telemark

timon0x31 said:


> After posting my last post I reread the first post and something bothered me.
> 
> Does the TiVo use NTP internally using the standard NTP Damon or does it only get time corrections when it does it's daily connection?


I don't see a copy of ntpd on the Roamio's, but there is ntpdate. So it's most likely it runs ntpdate during the daily calls.

Version: ntpdate 3-5.93
Usage: ntpdate [-bBdqsv] [-a key#] [-e delay] [-k file] [-p samples] [-o version#] [-r rate] [-t timeo] server ...


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## timon0x31

That's interesting you found ntpdate and not ntpd. NTPDATE is old and was being discontinued.



> FreeBSD statement about ntpdate.
> 
> DESCRIPTION
> Note: The functionality of this program is now available in the ntpd(8) program. See the -q command line option in the ntpd(8)
> page. After a suitable period of mourning, the ntpdate utility is to be retired from this distribution.
> 
> The ntpdate utility sets the local date and time by polling the Network Time Protocol (NTP) server(s) given as the server argu-
> ments to determine the correct time. It must be run as root on the local host. A number of samples are obtained from each of
> the servers specified and a subset of the NTP clock filter and selection algorithms are applied to select the best of these.
> Note that the accuracy and reliability of ntpdate depends on the number of servers, the number of polls each time it is run and
> the interval between runs.


If TiVo isn't using ntpd on Internet connected TiVo's then their engineers are stupider that I would want believe. Hopefully this is not the case.

The whole point about NTP is that everyone remains in sync and corrections to the clock are made without any large step changes. If the clock is off by say 3 seconds NTP will correct that over several minutes. In the case of calling home daily clock changes are corrected with large jumps. NTP also accounts for a systems drift and adjust for them.

For something that been around since the Internet was created and is such a fundamental part of it I cannot understand why TiVo would not be using it.


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## timon0x31

telemark said:


> In my approximation model, there's 3 channel paths, so variation in sources and amount of delay.
> 
> The transcoding you mentioned, is there for statistical multiplexing, so I refer to it as that.
> 
> Satellite to Head end = compression, uplink, downlink, multiplex.
> Locals to Head end = multiplex.
> Locals to DVR = none / minimal.
> 
> I haven't measured how much but I do think they're noticeably offset.
> 
> One fix for the variance is to keep OTA on one DVR and satellite uplinked cable on another DVR.


Basically I ignore the satellite transmission time since it a fixed 0.28 seconds. It's something that can't be changed unless you can change the laws of physics.

The transcoding is by far the largest part of the delay that has to be accounted for and it what TiVo is ignoring. For such smart people I can not understand why they don't understand this.


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## Jakk

> Posted by timon0x31
> Here's a question, why doesn't TW or Comcast have this issue with their DVR? I bet they either run their own NTP servers or they delay it inside the DVR.


Comcast's own DVR has the exact same problem. Most recordings start and end earlier than they should and the last seconds of the show aren't recorded.


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## timon0x31

Had to call TiVo about another issue and while I was at it I ask about this again! The Tech said she never heard about this, big lie, then said TiVo wouldn't do amnything about it.

What do we have to do to get TiVo to acknowledge this is a problem that can't be fixed any other way except TiVo fixing it.

Personally I'm tired of shows getting the last few seconds cut off so get off you collective asses TiVo and fix this!


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## timon0x31

I has a conversation with TimeWarner about the delay in the cable channels. They told me that the delay is typically 15 seconds but it not currently fixed. It can run as low as 10 seconds to as high as 20 seconds. They also said that they are working to make the time more fixed so they can more easily compensate on their own DVRs.

Armed with this information I don't see how TiVo can keep ignoring the problem especially now that everyone knows there is a real problem.


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## lew

timon0x31 said:


> I've read those that say you can fix this with padding. For those please reread what the issue is and understand it. This problem has NOTHING TO DO WITH PADDING. It's not a padding issue. It's a technical issue caused when cable or satellite companies transcode the broadcasts from the providers.





timon0x31 said:


> Basically I ignore the satellite transmission time since it a fixed 0.28 seconds. It's something that can't be changed unless you can change the laws of physics.
> 
> The transcoding is by far the largest part of the delay that has to be accounted for and it what TiVo is ignoring. For such smart people I can not understand why they don't understand this.





timon0x31 said:


> I has a conversation with TimeWarner about the delay in the cable channels. They told me that the delay is typically 15 seconds but it not currently fixed. It can run as low as 10 seconds to as high as 20 seconds. They also said that they are working to make the time more fixed so they can more easily compensate on their own DVRs.
> 
> Armed with this information I don't see how TiVo can keep ignoring the problem especially now that everyone knows there is a real problem.


Take the time to read the OP. He wants to ave the ability to manually adjust the clock, i.e. add a fixed 15 second delay. This would affect all channels. This assumes a clock only issue. Your analysis suggests that's not generally the issue.

You've identified several different scenarios.

An OTA channel transmitted by cable without transcoding or satellite delays. Starts on time. Some cable systems get the OTA networks via a fiber optic cable. I think some use an antenna.

A satellite transmitted channel not being transcoded. Satellite only delay. Amount isn't significant.

A channel which is transcoded by the cable operator. Delay will vary.

I'll add channels like TNT which runs the shows together, without caring if it's a minute or so off. I'm not including the 5 minute after the hour scheduling which is picked up by tivo.

JMO but padding is the current solution. It allows the customer to add a minute to those channels which require it. My network shows start and end on time. Shows on HBO and SHO generally start with "previously on" and end with previews. Frequently the first few minutes are previews for other shows. No reason to pad.

A global clock adjustment isn't the answer.

Tivo has recently made a change which adds padding to the variables which can by set by default for future one passes. The biggest culprits seem to be cable channles. Shows on cable networks are aired multiple times. Record them when you don't have conflicts.

When tivo added "clipping" some posters called it it "soft padding". I don't care what you call it. You have the ability to pad shows. Conflicts can be resolved by either clipping the lower priority show or only recording the higher priority show. JMO but either is preferable to the "soft padding" posters who want to always drop the padding if there is a conflict.

Perfect solution would be something in data stream (closed caption) which could identify the beginning and end of a show. This would solve the timing issue and issues with live programming (sports) running over.

An alternate solution. Have the programmers offer the feeds already transcoded. That won't work with cable systems which want to really compress.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

timon0x31 said:


> After posting my last post I reread the first post and something bothered me.
> 
> Does the TiVo use NTP internally using the standard NTP Damon or does it only get time corrections when it does it's daily connection?
> 
> If it only does it daily then TiVo has totally screwed up BIG TIME and needs to fix that by using the NTP Damon.
> 
> I'm having a time sync issue but I'll post that in another thread.


I Realize I am answering a 6 month old question, but for reference sake, after the screwup where people's TiVos were 2 minutes off for several weeks at the end of 2015, the problem was with a TiVo Server, proving that time is set from the Tivo Servers during updates - not from a NTP Damon.


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