# Stupid Question ...



## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Not sure if this is the correct place to pose this question as I know we're all supposed to be whiter than white and holyer than thou, but....

Since we all seem to have this fear of Sky (or whoever) pulling the plug on the TiVo EPG has anyone done any analysis on the the data that gets pulled from the mothership every day? Surely it can't be *that* difficult to pull data from 'another provider' and convert it into TiVo format... then, if Sky/TiVo pull the plug... who gives a s**t ??


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Not sure if this is the correct place to pose this question as I know we're all supposed to be whiter than white and holyer than thou, but....
> 
> Since we all seem to have this fear of Sky (or whoever) pulling the plug on the TiVo EPG has anyone done any analysis on the the data that gets pulled from the mothership every day? Surely it can't be *that* difficult to pull data from 'another provider' and convert it into TiVo format... then, if Sky/TiVo pull the plug... who gives a s**t ??


I thought you would have been well aware that TCM and variou others worked all this out long ago but have no plans to ever action it unless Tivo (not Sky who merely run the Customer Service Centre on their behalf but who do not provide the EPG) actually axe the UK Tivo service.

As things stand there seem to be no indication Tivo is planning to withdraw the UK service for the S1 boxes any time soon (indeed recent pronouncements from a senior Tivo executive visiting the UK suggest they will do no such thing) and by the time they ever do can the UK service the facilities available on Sky+, V+, Windows MCE, Freeview Playback and the new BBC/ITV HD/PVR box etc will have evolved to such an extent that most of us will probably be content to pension off our Tivos at that stage.

And if Tivo don't plan to ever relaunch in the UK themselves (as they have now stated to be the case) surely at some point they are going to sell the UK distribution rights for Wishlists, Suggestions and Thumbs etc to Sky, Virgin, the BBC or whoever else is offering them the most money?

So yes it was a stupid question but no more than I would expect from someone wearing a vest as their main atire rather than discretely under say a smart business shirt.


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> ... So yes it was a stupid question but no more than I would expect from someone wearing a vest as their main atire rather than discretely under say a smart business shirt.


See you've not lost your touch Pete ! Perhaps you should try for a job in the Diplomatic Corp.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

lol... I like the vest, and the tough look.. 

The guys in Australia make the guide data as they have no tivo service, just a question of making the data up and ftping it to the tivo, not sure if they can change the IP on the dial up (don't see why not) and get it to talk to someone's server. You never know Pete, Paul (vest wearing guy) may set his server up and you may be come a client of his.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> And if Tivo don't plan to ever relaunch in the UK themselves


Which is up to manufacturers to take the risk, and pay a fee to tivo.
Tivo licence the software and give a hardware schematic - they don't make boxes.

If tivo wanted to be proactive in this, they could approach virginmedia, as they have tivo software for V+ box in downloadable form.

Virginmedia could upgrade all V+ boxes to tivo software simply by an overnight upgrade.

Unfortunately virginmedia seem to be on a cost-cutting drive (recent speed throttling, and loss of channels), so aren't about to spend on a tivo licence.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Which is up to manufacturers to take the risk, and pay a fee to tivo.
> Tivo licence the software and give a hardware schematic - they don't make boxes.


Yes they do! They just didn't in the UK. But most TiVo boxes in the US are TiVo own brand.


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> I thought you would have been well aware that TCM and variou others worked all this out long ago but have no plans to ever action it unless Tivo (not Sky who merely run the Customer Service Centre on their behalf but who do not provide the EPG) actually axe the UK Tivo service.
> 
> So yes it was a stupid question but no more than I would expect from someone wearing a vest as their main atire rather than discretely under say a smart business shirt.


Right... so... isnt it better to a) pre-empt a switch off and (b) save yourself £120 a year. No point in waiting for the point at which they switch and moaning for 6 months while the new guide database is set up...

For your information Pete, the vest is my business attire. When I arrive at work I change into my work clothes that are provided by my employer, so not point in wearing a shirt and tie to work.. Have you seen the new Honda ad on the TV (I dont understand it either) well those nice white coats and jackets are what we wear at the factory!
Infact, we need to employ another 350 people so if you fancy working for a living.. come on down


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

TCM2007 said:


> Yes they do! They just didn't in the UK. But most TiVo boxes in the US are TiVo own brand.


Erm, Sony, Philips, and Hughes make tivo's in the US.
Aren't they paying tivo, or is tivo paying them?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Erm, Sony, Philips, and Hughes make tivo's in the US.
> Aren't they paying tivo, or is tivo paying them?


Well you can try telling TCM but he won't listen because the thing is that he's always right about absolutely everything.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Right... so... isnt it better to a) pre-empt a switch off and (b) save yourself £120 a year. No point in waiting for the point at which they switch and moaning for 6 months while the new guide database is set up...


You forget that most of us with greater numeracy skills and so who could multiply by 12 and then by a number of years tended to go for the Lifetime Subscription option. So all us Lifetime Subbers want the Tivo/Tribune EPG data to carry on as long as possible so as to derive the greatest possible value for money from our subscriptions. Especially as much though people criticise Tribune for their data any third party data source would probably be inferior in Metadata content and probably involve breaching that EPG provider's copyright.

You also breach the terms and conditions of using your Tivo by obtaining your EPG data from another source without their permission. So if they felt like it they could then enter into litigation against UK Tivo users who had stopped subscribing but who they suspected were still using their Tivo boxes.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Well you can try telling TCM but he won't listen because the thing is that he's always right about absolutely everything.


Well, I'm right about this! Sony etc. made Series 1 boxes like ours donkeys years ago, but the standalone series 2 and series 3 TiVos are made by TiVo themselves.

http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_attrib.php/page_id=157/form_keyword=tivo/rd=1


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Which is up to manufacturers to take the risk, and pay a fee to tivo.
> 
> Tivo licence the software and give a hardware schematic - they don't make boxes..


Yes but Tivo also set up a permanent UK marketing office with several full time staff and paid for advertising for the product.

Now I don't know the precise commercial arrangements as they have not been revealed but I suspect Thomson built 30,000 boxes to Tivo's order and Tivo underwrote most of the risk if they wouldn't sell either at all or at the expected price (i.e. £399 per box).

If there was no central Tivo UK customer service or marketing office there would be no Tivo product so to claim its just a question of manufacturers deciding to make boxes and sign a contract with Tivo is not entirely accurate.

Instead Tivo have to decice they want to sell Tivos in the UK and then set up offices and at the same time they look for a manufacturing partner or partners to turn out the boxes. The manufacturers can't do it all on their own the way the way the original UK marketing model was set up.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Well, I'm right about this! Sony etc. made Series 1 boxes like ours donkeys years ago, but the standalone series 2 and series 3 TiVos are made by TiVo themselves.
> 
> http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_attrib.php/page_id=157/form_keyword=tivo/rd=1


I think you will find you are wrong.

The latest Series 2 and 3 models only carry Tivo badging but are clearly made by a consumer goods manufacturer or manufacturers to Tivo's specification but are not made by Tivo itself as Tivo don't have a Tivo assembling plant anywhere do they?


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

I hear the sound of hairs being split.... or is that "torn out"?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> I hear the sound of hairs being split.... or is that "torn out"?


But TCM's comments demand the splitting of these hairs when he is always so keen to split them with everyone else.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> I think you will find you are wrong.
> 
> The latest Series 2 and 3 models only carry Tivo badging but are clearly made by a consumer goods manufacturer or manufacturers to Tivo's specification but are not made by Tivo itself as Tivo don't have a Tivo assembling plant anywhere do they?


I have to say that's the most bollocks answer you have managed for some time.

The UK TiVo is a Thomson, in the past in the US there have been Sony, Philips and other brand named TiVos. Those were machines branded and sold by Sony, who paid a fee to TiVo for the software.

The machines now sold in the US are branded TiVo and sold by TiVo. No license fee is payable to anyone.

The excuse of "no one will license a UK TiVo" is just that - an excuse. In the US TiVo long ago gave up with that approach.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

TCM2007 said:


> The UK TiVo is a Thomson, in the past in the US there have been Sony, Philips and other brand named TiVos. Those were machines branded and sold by Sony, who paid a fee to TiVo for the software.


Yes, and I thought that was still the case, but it isn't anymore as you say.
-its a few years since I was stateside.

Now lets have less squabbling, and lobby VirginMedia to put Tivo software on their V+ box


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> The machines now sold in the US are branded TiVo and sold by TiVo. No license fee is payable to anyone.


But Tivo don't actually make them do they. They get Mr Taiwan or Mr China to do that I imagine at the current low prices charged. But Tivo agree to pay the manufacturers to produce the boxes and take all the risk of selling and distributing them.

Clearly the generic box manufacturers are much keener on getting a contract to build x thousand set top boxes for a known price as that is how they usually like to work.


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

So, getting back to my stupid vest wearing question....
Anyone fancy kicking off an 'open source' project ???


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> So, getting back to my stupid vest wearing question....
> Anyone fancy kicking off an 'open source' project ???


I think you will find the answer is no since as long as Tivo and Tribune are still providing an EPG service that some people (like you) are still paying them for then we would be damaging them commercially and hastening their potential exit from the UK. It is against the rules of this forum to try to obtain Tivo service in a territory where they provide it without paying for it.

Also I think you kid yourself if you think the replacement EPG service that could be rustled up would be as good as the one we have now, albeit that it might work after a fashion with quite a few glitches and headaches on some channels from time to time.

Also don't forget that service would only work for the tiny number of Tivo users getting their data via a network card and web access. Unless perhaps we could tell other users dialling up how to install a new phone number in the prefix code so that would be dialled instead of the 0800 number. But running lots of modem emulation racks and phone lines to support them brings substantial costs, unless perhaps an 0870 or 0871 number was used to generate a revenue source to offset those running costs.


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> I think you will find the answer is no since as long as Tivo and Tribune providing an EPG service that some people (like you) are still paying them for then we would be damaging them commercially and hastening their potential exit from the UK. It is against the rules of this forum to try to obtain Tivo service in a territory where they provide it without paying for it.


Firstly, I'm on a lifetime sub.  Secondly, how would TiVo know I was getting my data elsewhere? Would my box contact TiVo and dob me in, I rather fancy it wouldnt... 

Before you start banging on about how daft I am wanting to get data from somewhere else even though I'd already paid for it.. I just don't care, as long as I'm getting the data... the £200 is pissed against the wall the minute you let 'em have it.. its gone, bye bye, never to be seen again.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Before you start banging on about how daft I am wanting to get data from somewhere else even though I'd already paid for it.. I just don't care, as long as I'm getting the data... the £200 is pissed against the wall the minute you let 'em have it.. its gone, bye bye, never to be seen again.


But what makes you think we could do it any better than Tivo/Tribune?

As we have already paid for the service and they are still providing it why go to all the trouble of running an alternative service unless it becomes necessary. By doing so you would only hasten the withdrawal of the official service.

And the TCM's, Ljay's and Gary Sargent's of this forum long ago worked out how we would do this if it became necessary but the loyalty of Tivo's founder to the UK and the potential damage to its reputation of cutting the service compared to the small costs of keeping it going (or they may even still make a tiny profit) mean that they will not consider it until they see only very tiny numbers of Tivos still in daily use in the UK.


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> But what makes you think we could do it any better than Tivo/Tribune?
> 
> 
> > Put your mind to it and you can always do better than what has been done before. Its the 'can do' attitude. "In order to succeed you must not be afraid to fail" Mr Honda taught us that.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Its the 'can do' attitude. "In order to succeed you must not be afraid to fail" Mr Honda taught us that.


Do they still make you sing the company song every morning?  

And are all your senior bosses still little men from the Far East?


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Do they still make you sing the company song every morning?
> 
> And are all your senior bosses still little men from the Far East?


Sing the company song... no we don't, never have done. However they do play 'By The Rivers Of Babylon' at the start of each shift, strange really considering that the song is all about slavery?! Ironic!!

The some of the top brass are Japanese, but are really great guys. Never too busy to make conversation or to get stuck in and help out. We are a 'single status' company.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> The some of the top brass are Japanese, but are really great guys. Never too busy to make conversation or to get stuck in and help out. We are a 'single status' company.


So they speak English pretty fluently then and are tuned in to our strange UK ways and traditions? Doesn't sound like the early days at Toyota in Sunderland.

As to being "single status" how does that work if you still have bosses?


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## Prat77 (Apr 14, 2007)

Pete77 said:


> And are all your senior bosses still little men from the Far East?


 :down: :down: :down:


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> So they speak English pretty fluently then and are tuned in to our strange UK ways and traditions? Doesn't sound like the early days at Toyota in Sunderland.
> 
> As to being "single status" how does that work if you still have bosses?


Yeah, their English is damn good compared to our Japanese! I have been to Suzuka in Japan and I can tell you, their country is almost like stepping onto another planet !

Depends how you define a boss, we are all team players, every member of the team is valued and can express their feelings and opinions at any time. That is how we improve continuously. The guys that know the solutions to the issues are the guys who are experiencing the issues i.e. the guys on the ground, their opinions are valued the most.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Depends how you define a boss, we are all team players, every member of the team is valued and can express their feelings and opinions at any time. That is how we improve continuously. The guys that know the solutions to the issues are the guys who are experiencing the issues i.e. the guys on the ground, their opinions are valued the most.


Well that does all sound good if it really works.

Have you also worked at traditional old style British firm with a "the boss always knows best and don't argue with the boss" style of management culture?


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Well that does all sound good if it really works.
> 
> Have you also worked at traditional old style British firm with a "the boss always knows best and don't argue with the boss" style of management culture?


I have worked in many UK companies like that... they suck!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Prat77 said:


> :down: :down: :down:


Well they are mainly far smaller than the average Brit and do come from the Far East.

Can I take it that political correctness is another of the many chips on your shoulder.


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## Andy Leitch (Apr 30, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> Well they are mainly far smaller than the average Brit and do come from the Far East.
> 
> Can I take it that political correctness is another of the many chips on your shoulder.


Pete77 does have a point.

http://world.honda.com/Geneva2006/image/top/top_01.jpg


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Andy Leitch said:


> Pete77 does have a point.
> 
> http://world.honda.com/Geneva2006/image/top/top_01.jpg


Andy,

I never thought I would find myself laughing at one of your jokes. But that is an extremely amusing and relevant choice of photograph.  :up:

Perhaps its time for us to bury the hatchet and all that kind of stuff.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> But Tivo don't actually make them do they. They get Mr Taiwan or Mr China to do that I imagine at the current low prices charged. But Tivo agree to pay the manufacturers to produce the boxes and take all the risk of selling and distributing them.
> 
> Clearly the generic box manufacturers are much keener on getting a contract to build x thousand set top boxes for a known price as that is how they usually like to work.


Now you're displaying a total lack of understanding of business. Can you really not tell the difference between licensing technology to allow a manufacturer to make its own product, and subcontracting the manufacture of your own product?

Apple's laptops are manufactured by 3rd parties in the Far East; does that make them any less of an Apple product?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Firstly, I'm on a lifetime sub.  Secondly, how would TiVo know I was getting my data elsewhere? Would my box contact TiVo and dob me in, I rather fancy it wouldnt...
> 
> Before you start banging on about how daft I am wanting to get data from somewhere else even though I'd already paid for it.. I just don't care, as long as I'm getting the data... the £200 is pissed against the wall the minute you let 'em have it.. its gone, bye bye, never to be seen again.


Careful guys, roll-your-own UK guide data is considered service theft on TCF, and is a banned topic.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Unless perhaps we could tell other users dialling up how to install a new phone number in the prefix code so that would be dialled instead of the 0800 number. But running lots of modem emulation racks and phone lines to support them brings substantial costs, unless perhaps an 0870 or 0871 number was used to generate a revenue source to offset those running costs.


TiVo doesn't have lots of "modem emulation racks and phone lines", so I'm sure any other solution wouldn't either. But anyway, no more on this.


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Andy,
> 
> I never thought I would find myself laughing at one of your jokes. But that is an extremely amusing and relevant choice of photograph.  :up:


The 'little guy' is the top dog in Honda and I mean globally, he is 'Mr Honda'.
The 'big guy' is Jenson Button, a complete pratt who is about 5' 10. Both he and Takuma Sato turned up at our works 'Summer Event' last year. The little Sato fella was very polite and chatty, Mr Button on the other hand was your typical F1 primadonna.

But yes, like us some are small, others are tall...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Careful guys, roll-your-own UK guide data is considered service theft on TCF, and is a banned topic.


As I tried to make clear to Senor Wilkins at the time but which he refuses to accept.

And aside from being a banned subject it would only hasten Tivo withdrawal of the official Tivo EPG service, which many of us have already paid for during the "Lifetime" of our Tivo machines.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> TiVo doesn't have lots of "modem emulation racks and phone lines", so I'm sure any other solution wouldn't either. But anyway, no more on this.


OK so we would acquire our 0870 number with a telecoms provider that has the capacity to emulate modem tone and route the calls to our new TivoCommunity servers.

But either way telecoms providers charge for such a service so we could not afford to go on supporting it with an 0800 number or even an 01 or 02 number.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Apple's laptops are manufactured by 3rd parties in the Far East; does that make them any less of an Apple product?


In my eyes yes it very much does.

For instance my HP Pavilion DV1139EA came in an HP badged (printed on the cardboard) box 2 years ago but bearing a white sticker showing it had been made in China and shipped directly to Comet by Techfront a few weeks earlier. So now I know this is merely badge engineering and that Techfront could for instance be making Fujitsu PCs the next week.

To me a manufacturer made product worthy of a manufacturer badge is a BMW made at the BMW plant or a Renault made at the Renault plant or a Mars bar made at the Mars plant and only made by direct employees of those companies. To me other forms of manufacturing represent a badging con where the reputation of one brand is used to disguise the real creators of the product you are using.

Of course real manufacturers like Ford or Mars etc do buy in their components or ingredients from third parties but they totally control how they are used and assembled in the final item supplied to the customer.

Whereas my Techfront HP notebook proves a manufacturer like HP or Philips cannot be trusted as they do not have their products made to a consistent quality that you can rely on but instead to any old quality that looks cosmetically acceptable and that will sell well in that particular market sector in that month.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> The 'little guy' is the top dog in Honda and I mean globally, he is 'Mr Honda'.
> The 'big guy' is Jenson Button, a complete pratt who is about 5' 10. Both he and Takuma Sato turned up at our works 'Summer Event' last year. The little Sato fella was very polite and chatty, Mr Button on the other hand was your typical F1 primadonna...


Whereas I would get on great with Jenson Button and have little to say to the shy and taciturn Mr Sato.

Is either personality type wholly right or wrong (as you imply). No in my view they are just different personality types who do the same job in their own different way.

What I find annoying is the members in this forum who imply that there is a right way to post in it and that no other way favoured by different personality types should be allowed.


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> To me a manufacturer made product worthy of a manufacturer badge is a BMW made at the BMW plant or a Renault made at the Renault plant or a Mars bar made at the Mars plant and only made by direct employees of those companies. To me other forms of manufacturing represent a badging con where the reputation of one brand is used to disguise the real creators of the product you are using.
> 
> Of course real manufacturers like Ford or Mars etc do buy in their components or ingredients from third parties but they totally control how they are used and assembled in the final item supplied to the customer.


Well allow me to educate you Pete. If you think the Ford or BMW manufacture every single part in their products you would be very much mistaken. Motor manufacturers buy their components from all over the place, yes they get some tin pot supplier in hungary or china to provide seats, instrument panels.. the whole gambit. The guys at the factory merely bolt it together. So your German BMW is probably 75% far-east assembled!!

Anyway, I do take your point re:the guide. However, I think the reasoning behind TiVos arsey position is a crock of pooh ! Probably wouldnt stand up in court anyway


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Well allow me to educate you Pete. If you think the Ford or BMW manufacture every single part in their products you would be very much mistaken. Motor manufacturers buy their components from all over the place, yes they get some tin pot supplier in hungary or china to provide seats, instrument panels.. the whole gambit. The guys at the factory merely bolt it together. So your German BMW is probably 75% far-east assembled!!


See paragraph 2 of the quote you used in your post which covered the very points you have now repeated.

Yes they use third party made bits but they all go past employees of the company assembling the product and are tested by employees of the company assembling the product before they go out of the front door.

This is quite different from my HP badged computer being made at Techfront in China (which I doubt HP even own any shares in) and an HP employee never seeing it during the whole assembly, testing and distribution process. :down:


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> See paragraph 2 of the quote you used in your post which covered the very points you have now repeated.


My apologies


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> OK so we would acquire our 0870 number with a telecoms provider that has the capacity to emulate modem tone and route the calls to our new TivoCommunity servers.
> 
> But either way telecoms providers charge for such a service so we could not afford to go on supporting it with an 0800 number or even an 01 or 02 number.


TiVo's phone number is just a PoP for an ISP, WorldCom if memory serves.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Indeed. That is how some overseas users get their data; by dialling the local (to them) UUNET access number.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> In my eyes yes it very much does.
> 
> For instance my HP Pavilion DV1139EA came in an HP badged (printed on the cardboard) box 2 years ago but bearing a white sticker showing it had been made in China and shipped directly to Comet by Techfront a few weeks earlier. So now I know this is merely badge engineering and that Techfront could for instance be making Fujitsu PCs the next week.
> 
> ...


You are fundamentally confusing two entirely different things:


Badging an existing product with your brand. This is often called "white labelling".
Outsourcing of the production of your product to a 3rd party factor

In the first case, the Far Eastern company has done all the design, you just add your logo and make some stylistic tweaks.

In the second, you have done the design and have commissioned a specialist factory to build it to your specifications.

Your criticisms apply to the first, but that if fairly rare among reputable brands.

The second is what TiVo (and pretty much any consumer electronics big name you can think of for at east part of their product range) do.

I publish magazines; by your logic they are actually published by St Ives Printers!

Your view of what parts of a business need to be under its direct control are quaintly 1970s.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> TiVo's phone number is just a PoP for an ISP, WorldCom if memory serves.


Yes indeed but Worldcom do not provide their service to Tivo Inc free of charge do they.  

Therefore in a situation where there was no Tivo service any more we would have to pick up the Worldcom bill or replace Worldcom with another solution that routed the calls directly to our own servers more cheaply. I believe this could be done without software modification if dialup users inserted the other new number in the Prefix code.

Howrver Since both Worldcom charge for their services and 0800 numbers cost the recipient money each time a call is made to them it is likely we would have to deploy a cheaper solution if we still wanted to support the 0800 dialup Tivo customers calling in via dialup.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Yes indeed but Worldcom do not provide their service to Tivo Inc free of charge do they.
> 
> Therefore in a situation where there was no Tivo service any more we would have to pick up the Worldcom bill or replace Worldcom with another solution that routed the calls directly to our own servers more cheaply. I believe this could be done without software modification if dialup users inserted the other new number in the Prefix code.
> 
> Howrver Since both Worldcom charge for their services and 0800 numbers cost the recipient money each time a call is made to them it is likely we would have to deploy a cheaper solution if we still wanted to support the 0800 dialup Tivo customers calling in via dialup.


Any replacement would I'm sure be on a premium rate line to pay for it. Producing workable guide data is not free. At the very least the 0800 number would have to go.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> At the very least the 0800 number would have to go.


At last we agree on something.  

However the way things look to me now by the time Tivo ever think of scrapping the UK EPG service there will be an awful lot less Tivos still in use by the forum's greatest enthusiasts and thus the whole imperative and incentive to provide our own replacement service will by then be very much less.

It seems most likely to me that in the end most people will simply fade away to an alternative form of PVR, be it Windows MCE, Sky+, V+ or Freeview Playback, all of which will by then be very considerably enhanced and improved from their current state of development but will still probably sadly lack Thumbs and Suggestions (although it does seem Sky is working on their own interpretation of the latter).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> My apologies


Imagines mental picture of an honourable bow by PaulWilkinsUK and then him immediately falling on his Honda provided corporate sword.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> The 'little guy' is the top dog in Honda and I mean globally, he is 'Mr Honda'.
> 
> The 'big guy' is Jenson Button, a complete pratt who is about 5' 10. Both he and Takuma Sato turned up at our works 'Summer Event' last year. The little Sato fella was very polite and chatty, Mr Button on the other hand was your typical F1 primadonna...


How do you square your apparent approval of Mr Sato's humble and low key approach versus Mr Button's OTT and noisy approach with your own vest wearing and your use of the terms "Oh, Yeahhh" and "Quite Frankly Darling, I Don't Give A Damn" in your forum signatures.

Both these characteristics seem to suggest to me an approach to life which is in fact closer to that of the aforesaid Mr Button.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Your criticisms apply to the first, but that if fairly rare among reputable brands.


Well one of those very reputable brands called Sony endorsed that approach entirely for one of their recent Freeview PVR models which is absolutely identical to and as poor as the other model from which it is cloned.

The complete reverse of the situation was OnDigital where every manufacturer produced their own unique box and then had to have it packaged in an absolutely identical looking OnDigital box for sale in retail outlets.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

That Sony box is the exception which proves the rule.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> That Sony box is the exception which proves the rule.


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Imagines mental picture of an honourable bow by PaulWilkinsUK and then him immediately falling on his Honda provided corporate sword.


Lap it up Pete.  At least I know when I have made a mistake and not too proud to admit it !!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Lap it up Pete.  At least I know when I have made a mistake and not too proud to admit it !!


I freely admit that I can be opinionated, self-righteous and egotistical but I still find it rather pathetic that life's quieter and more restrained types would seek to have me banned from the forum.

Freedom of Speech for all is what I say so long as you don't try to libel or slander others.


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> How do you square your apparent approval of Mr Sato's humble and low key approach versus Mr Button's OTT and noisy approach with your own vest wearing and your use of the terms "Oh, Yeahhh" and "Quite Frankly Darling, I Don't Give A Damn" in your forum signatures.
> 
> Both these characteristics seem to suggest to me an approach to life which is in fact closer to that of the aforesaid Mr Button.


Does Mr Button wear vests? 
Pete if you were ever to meet me in person you would find that I do take an interest in other people and I am quite a polite person with high moral standards. However, I do have very little tolerance for ********ters, time wasters and the politically correct.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Pete if you were ever to meet me in person you would find that I do take an interest in other people and I am quite a polite person with high moral standards. However, I do have very little tolerance for ********ters & time wasters and the political correct.


Does your asterisked work begin with m then? There is a shorter version of the word beginning with w that I would have though was closer to your own form of vocabulary?


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Does your asterisked work begin with m then? There is a shorter version of the word beginning with w that I would have though was closer to your own form of vocabulary?


Male form of bovine that produces excrement ...


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

speedyrite said:


> Oh dear, I was 50 yesterday  - time to spend more time watching TiVo then...


Hoooray... happy birthday Smiffy old Son !!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Probably because the 20somethings are having sex with their partners, the 30somethings are having sex with their partners and the 50 somethings are down the pub thinking about the sex they used to have with their partners... however us 40somethings can do neither a) coz we're too old and b) coz we aint got no money as we spend it all on toys.


The married over 30s are all having sleepless nights caused by their under 5 kids and/or preoccupied with their over 5s secondary school prospects in my experience. And the wife has usually gone off sex because she is bored with her hubby and the kids are more important to her.

Having said that only one of the people I knew well at university who have had kids has so far got divorced and the rest are all stil not that unhappily l married.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

P.S. We are probably the last generation for whom television was really important with enough understanding of technology to understand what a Tivo was really all about.

As we know that those younger than us only watch DVDs or content they they have downloaded by broadband (that is when they are not at clubbing and taking ecstacy and having sex) and those older than us would find the concept of a PVR technologically incomprehensible.


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## speedyrite (May 18, 2002)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> Hoooray... happy birthday Smiffy old Son !!


cheers matey!!!


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## speedyrite (May 18, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> (snip)
> 
> As we know that those younger than us only watch DVDs or content they they have downloaded by broadband (that is when they are not at clubbing and taking ecstacy and having sex) and those older than us would find the concept of a PVR technologically incomprehensible.


Maybe, but TiVo comes 1st with my kids (15 & 17)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

speedyrite said:


> Maybe, but TiVo comes 1st with my kids (15 & 17)


True but I think the explanation is that Tivo in the UK is a product that was bought and not sold (because the sales efforts were truly pathetic and totally incompetent) and that only those over 40 had the budget and the free time in the evenings and the technical knowledge to realise what an excellent product Tivo was and seek it out.

The absence of almost any regular female member of this forum is testament to the abnormal anorakey and geeky nature of most of us who bought Tivos.

Come on guys you know its true. Face up to it!


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## speedyrite (May 18, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> (snip)
> 
> The absence of almost any regular female member of this forum is testament to the abnormal anorakey and geeky nature of most of us who bought Tivos.
> 
> Come on guys you know its true. Face up to it!


It's true that Mrs. S. leaves the forum monitoring to me, but she was indeed the nimble handed lass who has performed open heart surgery on both our TiVos (thanks to the fine fellow of Malmesbury who supplied our kit!) without batting an eyelid. I, on the other hand, was "extremely nervous" during the ops...


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> the sales efforts were truly pathetic and totally incompetent


A trifle harsh as ever Pete. They certainly weren't that effective, but they did spend a great deal of money on an advertising campaign, and I'm not sure how much better it could have been done.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

speedyrite said:


> It's true that Mrs. S. leaves the forum monitoring to me, but she was indeed the nimble handed lass who has performed open heart surgery on both our TiVos (thanks to the fine fellow of Malmesbury who supplied our kit!) without batting an eyelid. I, on the other hand, was "extremely nervous" during the ops...


And women are supposed to be the ones who are better at chatting too. 

Is there an element of role reversal in your household. Or is it just that your wife watches more telly so was more desperate to up the Tivo recording capacity?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> A trifle harsh as ever Pete.


I really hate to agree with Pete, but I suppose everything has to happend once 



> They certainly weren't that effective, but they did spend a great deal of money on an advertising campaign, and I'm not sure how much better it could have been done.


Their UK marketing was pathetic!

Compare and contrast:
US Ad (One of many!)
UK Ad (One of, well, one!)

I know which one would have made me go out and buy a Tivo and it wasn't the UK one 

One suggestion, made on here after the fact, was to give a months sub away for free with the box. Even something _that_ simple would, I think, have worked very well.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> A trifle harsh as ever Pete. They certainly weren't that effective, but they did spend a great deal of money on an advertising campaign, and I'm not sure how much better it could have been done.


I can fault them though for the following particularly enormous mistakes given the undeniable obstacles they were clearly up against as PVR pioneers in the UK marketplace and especially due to Sky Digital secretly working against them behind their backs all along. These major mistakes were:-

1. Not allowing those interested to buy the product to do so on the basis of a guaranteed no questions asked 28 day money back refund, given that people didn't know what they were actually buying until they got it home and it cost a pretty high £399.

2. Failing to place the emphasis on being able to watch all your most favourite programs at any time of day you wanted and never missing your favourite series again, instead of mainly on being able to pause Live Tv.

3. Putting all the marketing emphasis on compatibility with Sky Digital and not explaining properly (including to Currys own salesmen) that the product worked just as well with OnDigital and NTL/Telewest. Especially when the limited channel lineup on OnDigital made a product like Tivo far more beneficial than on the channel rich Sky Digital platform.

Can I presume part of their success in the USA was probably due to their linkage with DirectTV, who actively supported and sold the product instead of working against Tivo night and day secretly as Sky did?

Also I should add that when I first decided not to buy Tivo in late 2000 (because I still didn't understand what it really was when I saw it at Currys) that I was on a £40k plus per annum salary so although the high cost put me off it wouldn't have dissuaded me if I had understood the product properly. Also I saw it in Currys and then I virtually never saw any tv advertising night and day to reinforce it. I did see something that made me ring up for the useles vhs video which made me think the product was crap.

Had there been heavy tv marketing on the right themes and including OnDigital and Cable compatibility and could I have rung an 0800 number to get one delivered there and then by a courier with 28 day money back guarantee then I would have got a Tivo in Autumn 2000 and not Dec 2002. Also had they replaced the Lifetime Sub £199 requirement with a suggestion that the Tivo sub would simply be free after paying £10 per month for 2 years again it would have taken away the idea in my mind that this was a £600 investment you could not get back if the product turned out to be rubbish.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> One suggestion, made on here after the fact, was to give a months sub away for free with the box. Even something _that_ simple would, I think, have worked very well.


Well my variation is there should have been a 28 day no questions asked money back refund if not totally happy.

Instead of which the product was sold initially only through outlets of DSG Retail Ltd, a notoriously difficult organisation to ever a get refund from. Especially if the product was no longer as new in its sealed box.

I wonder who recommended the advertising agency they used. Was it perhaps BSkyB?  

Was Sky's cynical policy to enter a marketing relationship with Tivo so that they could then market it badly to stop Tivo succeeding and then quietly develop their own crap but more profitable rival as fast as possible.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> I really hate to agree with Pete, but I suppose everything has to happend once .


Don't worry you have done it before. Its just that you have forgotten. But I know that its very fashionable to bash me on here at the moment.  :down:

The person I was genuinely shocked to find agree with me on something was Andy Leitch when he came up with his excellent and highly amusing pic of Jenson Button alongside the MD of Honda in response to my quip about the short men from the Far East. It seems I may have misjudged Andy for which I do apologise.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Don't worry you have done it before. Its just that you have forgotten.


I did't forget, I just blocked it out


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> 1. Not allowing those interested to buy the product to do so on the basis of a guaranteed no questions asked 28 day money back refund, given that people didn't know what they were actually buying until they got it home and it cost a pretty high £399.


IMHO even a 14-day trial period would be enough to convince most people :up:



Pete77 said:


> 2. Failing to place the emphasis on being able to watch all your most favourite programs at any time of day you wanted and never missing your favourite series again, instead of mainly on being able to pause Live Tv.


I totally agree. I vaguely remember seeing an avert for TiVo around that time which said "pause Live TV" and I thought it was a pointless gimmick. A while (maybe a year) later I was thinking about TV recorders and distinctly remember wishing that there was a computerised system which could know what programmes were being broadcast and let you search through to find the shows you wanted to record, or even - brainwave! - automatically record them for you.... 

Needless to say, I never acted on my bright idea, and a year or so after that I stumbled across an in-depth article about TiVo somewhere, realised to my horror that it was the same thing I had dismissed as a gimmick a couple of years earlier and went out and bought one from Currys that same lunchtime  



Pete77 said:


> 3. Putting all the marketing emphasis on compatibility with Sky Digital and not explaining properly (including to Currys own salesmen) that the product worked just as well with OnDigital and NTL/Telewest.


And not forgetting plain old analoge via the internal tuner, which still accounts for a fair proportion of users if my upgrade customers are anything to go by.



Pete77 said:


> Also had they replaced the Lifetime Sub £199 requirement with a suggestion that the Tivo sub would simply be free after paying £10 per month for 2 years again it would have taken away the idea in my mind that this was a £600 investment you could not get back if the product turned out to be rubbish.


I don't know about that - the built-in 10 day 'grace period' was more than enough to convince me and I purchased a lifetime sub within the first week :up:

However, giving a discount on additional subs for machines in the same household would definitely have persuaded me to buy my 2nd TiVo sooner than I did...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

If only Tivo had partnered with NTL/Telewest or OnDigital as their primary marketeers then history could have been so different.

In fact had OnDigital been Tivo's primary marketing partner and had there been a DTT/Freeview tuner and a Smartcard reading slot integrated directly in to a Tivo then I'm prepared to go so far as to say that OnDigital might never have done the suicidal football league deal that sunk them and that OnDigital would instead have been a runaway marketing success due to the public's love of the brilliant Tivo PVR product that it now came integrated with.

History is fully of so many What Ifs with the great benefit of hindsight.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> IMHO even a 14-day trial period would be enough to convince most people :up:


14 days might be enough to hook you but probably not for everybody who might even have say a busy spell at work. And I would note that I as a doubting Thomas did pay a monthly sub for a month and a half before paying for a Lifetime Sub.

In fact I think a 3 month Money Back guarantee would have been optimal as by then both the kids and even the most technically illiterate wife would have fully mastered Tivo and there would have been potential threats of divorce or kids upping sticks and running away if anyone had dared suggest their Tivo be taken away at that stage when they were well and truly hooked.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> 14 days might be enough to hook you but probably not for everybody


I guess - because, of course, I did actually _invent _TiVo myself without realising that somebody else had beaten me to it


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> I guess - because, of course, I did actually _invent _TiVo myself without realising that somebody else had beaten me to it


Why didn't you try selling your invention to NTL and Telewest before it was too late?


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## Ashley (Apr 20, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> those older than us would find the concept of a PVR technologically incomprehensible.


As a 60+ I don't find a PVR incomprehensible 

I wonder who is our oldest member? It's beginning to sound like me.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Ashley said:


> As a 60+ I don't find a PVR incomprehensible
> 
> I wonder who is our oldest member? It's beginning to sound like me.


I think we have another UK member who talked about his grey matter not being as good at retaining things as it used to be and implied that he was probably in his 70s.

I forget who that was though.

Logically retired people have loads of time for watching telly and I have at times considered buying a second hand one for my mum (who is widowed and now aged 72) as a birthday or Christmas present.

Perhaps you need to start a thread entitled "Oldest UK Owner of a Tivo" and/or Oldest UK User of a Tivo" to find the answer. I bet they have someone well into their 90s in the USA.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

My parents both around 65 and think it's great. They don't watch much TV, but they like being able to watch it when they want (or have time) to.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> My parents are 66 and 64 and they both love Tivo.


But perhaps we are really after an older Tivo owner who went out and got a Tivo on their own initiative, rather than after being aggressively sold the concept and/or being given free access to test driving it by their children.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)




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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Similarly to blindlemon, I saw it advertised as "pause live tv", dismissed it as too expensive
- which is surprising given my spend on pointless gadgets  . 

It was only a year or so later on a trip to the USA that a friend had a tivo, and put it through its paces did I "see the light" and immediately bought one on my return.

Even now there are people who are not aware DVRs can do anything more than one off recordings i.e. series links, and I'm talking 35 year olds here.


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

I remember TiVo being launched and I knew about the cool stuff that it did, but at £600 it was way out of my reach. I also remember seeing the "Pause Live TV" ads in the cinema and wondering why they weren't focussing on it's other features. In 2001 I was working for a bloke who had one and who sung it's praises all the time, but still £600 was money that I felt could be better spent elsewhere.
In Autumn 2002 my video died and I'd almost forgotten about TiVo; I asked a coworker (I was working elsewhere by this time) what video he'd go for and he mentioned TiVo (although didn't have one himself). I decided to look them up again thinking I could probably justify the cost now only to discover they were now selling them off much cheaper. So for £299 (inc lifetime sub) I finally had the object of my desires


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

verses said:


> I decided to look them up again thinking I could probably justify the cost now only to discover they were now selling them off much cheaper. So for £299 (inc lifetime sub) I finally had the object of my desires


I delayed purchasing in part because the large £600 up front cost put me off and also due to Tivo's ability to work successfully with OnDigital/DTT not being clear to me.

I still wish I had purchased in 2000 though as although my Tivo and Lifetime Sub only cost me £328 in total I would have got back the extra £271 from a further 27 months or so of value from my Lifetime Sub and all the extra pleasure the Tivo would have given me before one day it sadly finally becomes obsolete.


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## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

> originally posted by Pete77
> Why do so many of us regulars here seem to be of a certain age that starts with a 4 and then has another number?


Not quite true my age starts with a 6 and then another number.

However SWMBO does fit your age profile     :up: :up:

And its been 30 years of happy marriage today.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> One suggestion, made on here after the fact, was to give a months sub away for free with the box. Even something _that_ simple would, I think, have worked very well.


I doubt you would have shelled out £400 for the box without having pretty much committed taking out a sub.

It was before its time. If it had launched a year later or Freeview been created a year earlier so there was an all-in one- dual tuner box it might have been a different story. I doubt anything less would have made any difference.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Also had they replaced the Lifetime Sub £199 requirement with a suggestion that the Tivo sub would simply be free after paying £10 per month for 2 years again it would have taken away the idea in my mind that this was a £600 investment you could not get back if the product turned out to be rubbish.


That was the key thing - it was £600. Realistically they were on a hiding to nothing there.

I'm sure a 28-day no risk policy would have been good - but it would have been impossibly expensive to actually do in practice. I can't think of an example of a similar product taking that approach?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> I totally agree. I vaguely remember seeing an avert for TiVo around that time which said "pause Live TV" and I thought it was a pointless gimmick. A while (maybe a year) later I was thinking about TV recorders and distinctly remember wishing that there was a computerised system which could know what programmes were being broadcast and let you search through to find the shows you wanted to record, or even - brainwave! - automatically record them for you....
> .


I agree, but how do you get that accoss in a 30 second ad? It's even possible the they broadcasters wouldn't have allowed an ad which was aimed so directly at them.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I agree, but how do you get that accoss in a 30 second ad? It's even possible the they broadcasters wouldn't have allowed an ad which was aimed so directly at them.


The way Tivo did in the USA.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I'm sure a 28-day no risk policy would have been good - but it would have been impossibly expensive to actually do in practice. I can't think of an example of a similar product taking that approach?


If you buy anything at any BAA airport shop (even the ones not run by BAA) with a BAA Worldcard Visa card you can return it for up to one year no questions asked provided it is in reasonably good condition and you have the receipt.

I have used this successfully a couple of times with Notebook PCs and a video camera.

Yes a year is too long and leads to abuse I agree but then the BAA (or rather Ferrovia) is a very profitable organisation. Perhaps even 28 days might have been too long. 14 days would probably have been about right as a no questions asked returns policy.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> The way Tivo did in the USA.





TCM2007 said:


> I agree, but how do you get that accoss in a 30 second ad? It's even possible the they broadcasters wouldn't have allowed an ad which was aimed so directly at them.


Yep. See the US ads in the link in my sig. Specificaly the first, TV Execs, one and tell me that doesn't get the message accross!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> If you buy anything at any BAA airport shop (even the ones not run by BAA) with a BAA Worldcard Visa card you can return it for up to one year no questions asked provided it is in reasonably good condition and you have the receipt.
> 
> I have used this successfully a couple of times with Notebook PCs and a video camera.
> 
> Yes a year is too long and leads to abuse I agree but then the BAA (or rather Ferrovia) is a very profitable organisation. Perhaps even 28 days might have been too long. 14 days would probably have been about right as a no questions asked returns policy.


Well exactly, it only makes sense to them because they need people to be prepared to make an impulse purchase in an airports, and they own the shops and the method of payment (and they also reckon you're unlikely to trail back to an airport to change some goods).

Marks and Spencers do too - they own the shops.

It's a totally different matter for the maker of a product to do it.

Think it through for a minute. Dixons sells you a TiVo. You don't like it and return it. Dixons has to give you your money back, and process the return. You, as TiVo, are going to have to really make that worth Dixons while (and having had some experience of dealing with DSG, that's not a negotiation I'd like to handle). By "worth their while" I would think they would have to be paid the amount of profit they would have made on the sale plus a fee for returning the stock and handling the cash.

That's a fairly normal arrangement - I do it with some of my products, but they sell for under £10 and the cost is not that great to me as a business. To do it with a £400 product would be sheer madness, and risk a Hoover flights style disaster.

Even a very small return rate would wipe you out.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Yep. See the US ads in the link in my sig. Specificaly the first, TV Execs, one and tell me that doesn't get the message accross!


Not sure I agree that they get the point over clearly, although they are funny.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Well exactly, it only makes sense to them because they need people to be prepared to make an impulse purchase in an airports, and they own the shops and the method of payment (and they also reckon you're unlikely to trail back to an airport to change some goods).
> 
> Marks and Spencers do too - they own the shops.


You can send the stuff in to BAA's returns agents in Hayes by insured special delivery and they refund the cost. Or can drop the item at the airport with their landside pickup desk that is mainly there for pickup of large items bought by customers travelling in the EU (who get the product tax paid at the same tax free price and then may not want to take a large laptop computer box etc with them and don't need to as the item is merely discounted and not truly duty free). Also their marketing profile for the card is such that most customers are quite affluent and only a small band of renegades like me go to the trouble of making returns. I hadn't used the card for a while and they tried to cancel it on me without notice surprisingly but when I called in I was able to get a new card issued.

Also with regards to your earlier comments about me having a 1970s concept of product badging etc I know that things have changed but I don't much like it and I feel it is dishonest when a product bears the badge of a company when it has never been handled or assembled by a single employee of that company. Call me old fashioned but that's how I feel about it.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> You can send the stuff in to BAA's returns agents in Hayes by insured special delivery and they refund the cost. .


I can only assume that the number of people who take them up on that is vanishingly small, although as I said, as they own the whole chain at least they don't have to compensate anyone else, just take the hit of the direct costs. TiVo would have had to have compensated everyone in the chain for the loss.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Also with regards to your earlier comments about me having a 1970s concept of product badging etc I know that things have changed but I don't much like it and I feel it is dishonest when a product bears the badge of a company when it has never been handled or assembled by a single employee of that company. Call me old fashioned but that's how I feel about it.


Depends if you feel the vital part of the process associated with the brand is assembling a product from boxes of bits, or having the idea, designing and marketing it.

None of my products has ever been touched by the hand of someone who works for my company - they go direct into distribution from the physical manufacturer, but i doubt that would worry even you if were you to buy one.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> None of my products has ever been touched by the hand of someone who works for my company - they go direct into distribution from the physical manufacturer, but i doubt that would worry even you if were you to buy one.


Yes but as I understand your products the essential component the customer is buying and relying on is the information contained on the pages which has been produced by you and your colleagues. Were the product to carry the name of your publishing house but the copy had been written by a load of English speaking journalists out in China I would then feel that this was a fake badging exercise.

Also on the subject of magazines I have to say that with the availability of broadband and online alternatives I am amazed they still sell so well at the £3 to £5 cover prices charged for most of these specialist publications.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Yes but as I understand your products the essential component the customer is buying and relying on is the information contained on the pages which has been produced by you and your colleagues. Were the product to carry the name of your publishing house but the copy had been written by a load of English speaking journalists out in China I would then feel that this was a fake badging exercise.
> .


I would argue that the essential element you are buying with a branded laptop or other electronic device is the design of it. So long as the manufacturing is done to a high standard (and often the SLAs applicable to a 3rd party are stricter than any on-house standards) it's not an issue.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I can only assume that the number of people who take them up on that is vanishingly small, although as I said, as they own the whole chain at least they don't have to compensate anyone else, just take the hit of the direct costs. TiVo would have had to have compensated everyone in the chain for the loss.


Other returns were definitely happening judging from the returns firm having a number of different employees when I dealt with them and had to chase a refund up and also from comments by the BAA person manning the airport returns desk. But you have to think of the pure number of items being sold at airport shops each day and the remarkable levels of turnover per sq ft with 18 hour per day of trading.

Also don't forget that products sold at say Dixons airport shop are covered by the returns offer but as the return goes to the BAA I imagine they take most of the commercial hit on the loss. Having said that I expect the BAA has got special terns out of DSG Retail Ltd in return for having a large and usually monopoly outlet for fast moving consumer electrical goods in each of their airport terminals.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I would argue that the essential element you are buying with a branded laptop or other electronic device is the design of it. So long as the manufacturing is done to a high standard (and often the SLAs applicable to a 3rd party are stricter than any on-house standards) it's not an issue.


Something seems to have gone wrong with the HP Pavilion DV1000 series quality control and/or design then judging by the large number of unhappy customers in various online forums.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

TCM2007 said:


> I'm sure a 28-day no risk policy would have been good - but it would have been impossibly expensive to actually do in practice. I can't think of an example of a similar product taking that approach?


ALDI had a one-year no-quibble guarantee, and you could just take it back to their shop. Unfortunately, they got burned when they sold Technosonic and Tevion-branded £99 DVRs, with a large proportion of them being returned as unreliable within the year. This was exacerbated by them releasing a 160GB version at the same cost as the 80GB version that they released less than a year before. Not only a free upgrade, but another year's warranty. 

Since then, ALDI have modified their one-year no-quibble guarantee to exclude electrical goods.


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