# Doctor Who: The Snowmen 12/25/12



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Loved it . Not many detailed thoughts, clearly the story was not about the Snowmen. "Greater Intelligence" is a baddie from the early days of Doctor Who. Strax was entertaining  Got a nice shiver when the one word was "Pond"

Interesting trivia, Clara Oswin Oswald, born Nov 23rd. Doctor Who 50th anniversary 23rd Nov 2013


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JohnB1000 said:


> Interesting trivia, Clara Oswin Oswald, born Nov 23rd. Doctor Who 50th anniversary 23rd Nov 2013


Other interesting trivia, it was supposed to debut on the 22nd, but it got bumped for some political story.

(Even more trivial, that was the day I turned three. So I guess if it weren't for Lee Harvey Oswald, Clara and I would have the same birthday.)

I've been wondering how they were going to reconcile Clara and Oswin. Guess I'll have to wonder some more!


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Moffat is officially back.  

This was the best episode of Doctor Who I've seen in a long while, certainly one of the best Christmas specials, and for the first time probably since Matt Smith took over, I'm really excited to see what happens. And my word, Jenna-Louise and Matt absolutely ooze chemistry. 

I just hope I'm not let down, because this show has a way of doing that to me.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I just started watching, but isn't this the first time since the re-launch in 2005 that they've shown the Doctor's face in the intro? I just about fell off my seat! Now all we need is no cold open. 

Greg


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Easily shocked?


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

gchance said:


> ...but isn't this the first time since the re-launch in 2005 that they've shown the Doctor's face in the intro? ...
> 
> Greg


Yes. Good to see the disembodied face back in the intro. In fact, with the intro overall - I kind of sensed they were paying an homage to the various opening styles and "art" we've seen over the near fifty year history of the show.

I didn't quite get how Strax was brought back. Who was the Doctor's friend that did so? Almost sort of "Bad Wolfish" - but I don't think that's realistic. I was only thinking that since I had seen the name of the pub be shown as "The Rose and Crown".

What was the comment the Doctor made when Clara said "...just getting to know me..."? His reply of "Those were the days..." didn't quite make sense to me.


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

also...

...smaller on the outside.


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Other interesting trivia, it was supposed to debut on the 22nd, but it got bumped for some political story.


Not true, Doctor Who was always set to debut on the 23rd. The debut on the 23rd was delayed a short time that day by news coverage.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Kennedy_assassination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Doctor_Who#The_1960s


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

My wild guess is Clara turns out to be a "hidden" Time Lord, like The Master. Maybe she's Romana, or even The Rani.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

That was a blast.

Wow, I likes me some Clara/Oswin.

Ok, crappy memory time. What episode were this particular Silurian woman and her wife from? Seems like everybody's getting on the gay marriage bandwagon. Also, what episode was Strax and his grenades from?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

sonnik said:


> Not true, Doctor Who was always set to debut on the 23rd. The debut on the 23rd was delayed a short time that day by news coverage.
> 
> http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Kennedy_assassination
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Doctor_Who#The_1960s


That's interesting...I remember back in the days of the old show, that story was always presented as simple fact.

I guess it's true what we historians say...the past isn't what it used to be!


----------



## paracelsus (Jun 23, 2002)

Is this a stand alone episode? I still haven't watched the last five episodes from last fall - wondering if I need to catch up before watching the Christmas episode...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

paracelsus said:


> Is this a stand alone episode? I still haven't watched the last five episodes from last fall - wondering if I need to catch up before watching the Christmas episode...


Absolutely wait. The central mystery of this episode means nothing if you haven't seen the season premiere.

Plus, the Doctor's state of mind has been rather...altered by recent events.


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Ok, crappy memory time. What episode were this particular Silurian woman and her wife from? Seems like everybody's getting on the gay marriage bandwagon. Also, what episode was Strax and his grenades from?


All three are from "A Good Man Goes to War". Season 6 (2011) Episode 7.


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's interesting...I remember back in the days of the old show, that story was always presented as simple fact.
> 
> I guess it's true what we historians say...the past isn't what it used to be!


I had always thought that it was delayed a day myself for a number of years. In fact, I had to double check myself again before I made my post.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

sonnik said:


> Not true, Doctor Who was always set to debut on the 23rd. The debut on the 23rd was delayed a short time that day by news coverage.
> 
> http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Kennedy_assassination
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Doctor_Who#The_1960s


You learn something new every day.


----------



## KenDC (Jun 18, 2001)

She had me at souffle.

Great eposide. Worth the wait.

BTW, when does next season begin?


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's interesting...I remember back in the days of the old show, that story was always presented as simple fact.
> 
> I guess it's true what we historians say...the past isn't what it used to be!


Well that was some history.


----------



## TravisKU (Nov 26, 2001)

Loved it!


----------



## jboehm (Aug 30, 2002)

Is the Doctor currently married? The tention was a little strong with no protests if he is married. I know they were going backwards in time thru their relationship. Did we already see the time were they they never meet again?


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I was thinking that Riversong has a rival.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

"Winter is coming" Where have I heard that before? And here in Ohio it really is. 
I haven't spotted any walking snowmen or zombies yet.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> "Winter is coming"


I forgot about that line even though it made a big impression on me as soon as I heard it.


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Imagine the snowmen melted? Oh, really?

After hearing the phrase "Winter is Coming" there can be only one response to walking snowmen and ice women.

(Spoiler for those who haven't read George R. R. Martin's _A Song of Ice and Fire_ books or seen _Game of Thrones_ on HBO.)



Spoiler



Fire. For cryin' out loud, BURN something.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

I love the mystery behind Clara. It far exceeds my expectations. It looks to be deep, dark and full of twisty turny wibbly wobbly timey wimey potential.

Nor did I think I would warm up to the next companion as quickly or emphatically as I have. plus the banter is ratcheted up a notch now that the companion is giving as good as she gets. The Doctor now has to deal with a companion who is as clever or more so than he.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

murgatroyd said:


> After hearing the phrase "Winter is Coming" there can be only one response to walking snowmen and ice women.


"You know nothing, Jon Snow"?


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> "You know nothing, Jon Snow"?


And that wolf thing, you know -- Davies already did it.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

I am blown away at how good I think this episode was. The actual plot, the snowmen thing, was merely OK, but that wasn't the point at all. That was the B-plot actually. The Doctor and Clara especially, plus Madame Vastra, Jenny, and Strax were the real selling point to this episode.

I've actually rewatched this episode a couple of times now, the first episode rewatch since well before Matt Smith took over.


----------



## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

They didn't explain how Vastra and Strax happened to be in the 19th century on Earth, did they?

And I'm glad Clara turned out to be a mystery, because she was acting way out of character for a 19th-century woman, even be who is supposed to be feisty and modern and whatnot.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Mars Rocket said:


> They didn't explain how Vastra and Strax happened to be in the 19th century on Earth, did they?


That was Vastra's current 'home', when the Doctor picked her up from in "A Good Man Goes to War". And where River returned her too after the episode's end. Out of show (but presumably canonacal) stories say Strax went with them, though it's not clear when he ceased to be dead.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Mars Rocket said:


> They didn't explain how Vastra and Strax happened to be in the 19th century on Earth, did they?
> .


Apparently there were a number of web episodes that explained this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who_(series_7)#Supplemental_episodes


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

So is Oswin going to be like Kenny from southpark, is she going to die in every episode she's in?


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

gchance said:


> I just started watching, but isn't this the first time since the re-launch in 2005 that they've shown the Doctor's face in the intro? I just about fell off my seat! Now all we need is no cold open.
> 
> Greg


The intro music also had the heavier bass line that I associate with the earlier years.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> So is Oswin going to be like Kenny from southpark, is she going to die in every episode she's in?


I can't see the Doctor yelling "Those bastards!"...


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Interesting note: during the scene when the Doctor dresses up like Sherlock Holmes, pay attention to the score. It momentarily switches over to the score from BBC's "Sherlock," which also happens to be produced by Doctor Who's Stephen Moffat.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

We didn't get to see much detail but I'm very happy that we have a new TARDIS interior design. I did NOT like the previous silly design.

Clara/Oswin seems like a companion that will be fun to watch. Amy became a chore even before last season.

The words "Doctor Who" were said a number of times in this episode. Usually, it's just once if at all.

Did Strax mention laser monkeys?


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Did Strax mention laser monkeys?


Yes, yes he did.


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

LoadStar said:


> Moffat is officially back.


That's funny - all I could think was dear God please someone fire Moffat now. He's ruined the show and this was a pretty good example.


----------



## MarkofT (Jul 27, 2001)

sonnik said:


> What was the comment the Doctor made when Clara said "...just getting to know me..."? His reply of "Those were the days..." didn't quite make sense to me.


Their meeting was a classic Doctor Who companion pickup scene. He departed without collecting a companion and when Clara remarked on it, he wistfully recalled the days when he would have drug her along with him.


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I've been considering Doctor Who something of a Doctor Who-lite for over a year now; seems to keep going off in that direction, too.

While it is nice to see some changes in storylines -- I'm so sick of Daleks -- it seems they just continue pulling from the past over and over again.


----------



## KenDC (Jun 18, 2001)

Is there a date or idea of when this season starts?


----------



## moot (Apr 8, 2006)

Cainebj said:


> That's funny - all I could think was dear God please someone fire Moffat now. He's ruined the show and this was a pretty good example.


To a certain degree, I actually agree with you. I don't necessarily think Moffat deserves to be fired, because he _has_ written some of the best single episodes of the new revived series, but he is definitely better suited to the occasional standalone episode, rather than season arcs.

I feel like every new season he tries to "out-clever" himself and whatever he did before, resulting in more and more tangled, wibbly wobbly, convoluted, damn-near-impossible-to-comprehend story lines. Even though each arc ends with a "wow, that was epic!" feel to it, as I go back and try to work through what actually happened it just ends up confusing me even more. Doctor Who has always been about being along for the ride, but at least in the Davies years, I felt like I could stop to enjoy the scenery. Moffat is going 120 mph all the time and if you look away for a moment, you lose the entire plot thread.

Any show (especially one that has been on as long as DW) needs to evolve, obviously. I don't begrudge him for pushing the boundaries of the universe in which the show exists. I just wish he'd take some time to explore the new areas he carves out instead of just pushing on in another direction the following season. It does tend to leave me with a feeling of: yes, anything is possible, but it doesn't really matter all that much.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

KenDC said:


> Is there a date or idea of when this season starts?


We're in mid-season. I believe Season 7 resumes in March, but I don't think it's been formally announced yet.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

At first I thought the Snowman voice was Patrick Stewart, I looked it up and it's Sir Ian McKellen that voiced the part.

Moffat runs the BBC Sherlock show, which Martin Freeman plays Watson. Martin Freeman also plays Bilbo Baggins in the new Hobbit movie(s) with Sir Ian McKellen. 

I liked it, I also wonder if Clara/Oswin is going to die in each episode for a bit. Sounds like she's an anomaly or something in time, maybe she's like a Neo or something.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

I was mildly amused that the tavern where Clara worked was the "Rose and Crown", which is the same name as the tavern in the England section of the Epcot World Showcase at Disney World. 

I wonder if there's any significance.


----------



## kmccbf (Mar 9, 2002)

I loved this show and I loved Clara. The chemistry was great. Though I'm not sure how I feel yet about a brooding doctor. However - Does anyone else thing that Clara looks a lot like Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Please spoilarize as you see fit: are we going to get a new actor playing the doctor?


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

When Clara was submitting to the "one word" interrogation by Vastra, Vastra explained how the Doctor once was kind and a hero but he took losses and has withdrawn as a result. She then asked Clara for one word to indicate her understanding of what she was just told and Clara responded with "man".

Vastra and her wife appeared to be impressed with the response. I didn't get it.

Anyone?


----------



## moot (Apr 8, 2006)

busyba said:


> When Clara was submitting to the "one word" interrogation by Vastra, Vastra explained how the Doctor once was kind and a hero but he took losses and has withdrawn as a result. She then asked Clara for one word to indicate her understanding of what she was just told and Clara responded with "man".
> 
> Vastra and her wife appeared to be impressed with the response. I didn't get it.


I just interpreted it as he had done what any normal person would do when faced with those kind of situations. "Man", aka: he's only human (only she didn't know that wasn't true).

What my own wife and I didn't get was the choice of the word "Pond". Sure, it's a clever choice that appeals to both us as the viewers and the Doctor, but given one single word to express how important it was for the Doctor to come help, why would Clara choose that? I thought for sure she'd say "Children".


----------



## pteronaut (Dec 26, 2009)

Perhaps the Dalek Oswin was before Governess Oswin.


----------



## lambertman (Dec 21, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Please spoilarize as you see fit: are we going to get a new actor playing the doctor?


Someday.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

moot said:


> I just interpreted it as he had done what any normal person would do when faced with those kind of situations. "Man", aka: he's only human (only she didn't know that wasn't true).
> 
> What my own wife and I didn't get was the choice of the word "Pond". Sure, it's a clever choice that appeals to both us as the viewers and the Doctor, but given one single word to express how important it was for the Doctor to come help, why would Clara choose that? I thought for sure she'd say "Children".


She said Pond because she's somehow hooked in to things that have and/or will happen.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

kmccbf said:


> I loved this show and I loved Clara. The chemistry was great. Though I'm not sure how I feel yet about a brooding doctor. However - Does anyone else thing that Clara looks a lot like Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island?


The Doctor having a "Screw the ungrateful bastids" attitude is certainly different from the first 30 years of Doctor Who that I watched. I don't like it. Then again, I don't particularly like the Doctor falling in love or expressing rage either but the reboot has made the Doctor more "human" which probably makes for more relatable stories.

Now that you've mentioned it, Clara does look like Mary Ann. I would mind seeing her in white shorts.


----------



## GAViewer (Oct 18, 2007)

moot said:


> What my own wife and I didn't get was the choice of the word "Pond". Sure, it's a clever choice that appeals to both us as the viewers and the Doctor, but given one single word to express how important it was for the Doctor to come help, why would Clara choose that? I thought for sure she'd say "Children".


While I felt that it was somewhat forced, I thought the reasoning behind it was because she knew the frozen pond in front of the house was important.


----------



## MarkofT (Jul 27, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> The Doctor having a "Screw the ungrateful bastids" attitude is certainly different from the first 30 years of Doctor Who that I watched. I don't like it. Then again, I don't particularly like the Doctor falling in love or expressing rage either but the reboot has made the Doctor more "human" which probably makes for more relatable stories.


It wasn't a "Screw the ungrateful bastids" attitude. It was a "Every time I get involved, someone dies" attitude.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

GAViewer said:


> While I felt that it was somewhat forced, I thought the reasoning behind it was because she knew the frozen pond in front of the house was important.


But why would that get the Doctor to take up her case? She would (should) have no way of knowing the resonance that word would have for him.

Unless something else is going on...


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But why would that get the Doctor to take up her case? She would (should) have no way of knowing the resonance that word would have for him.
> 
> Unless something else is going on...


Let's eliminate the possibilities.

#1: she knows part of his backstory, in which case, the choice is obvious, or

#2: she doesn't know. If she doesn't know the backstory, maybe she suspects that any message will eventually niggle at his curiosity (not necessarily compassion) until he finally decides to investigate. If that's the case, then the word itself is not the lure. The fact that a puzzle exists is the lure. (Which is borne out later in the episode by the Sherlock Holmes disguise.)

Now, what if she assumes that everything bad will happen before he decides to come, and she wants to leave him a clue as to what went wrong, so he'll know where to focus his investigation? He might be able to trace her to where she was working as a governess, so he'll find the estate, but where will he need to focus his attention once he gets there?

The pond.


----------



## lambertman (Dec 21, 2002)

Does anybody else get the feeling that Moffat is going to have the Doctor decide he officially wants to be known as "Doctor Who" soon?


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But why would that get the Doctor to take up her case? She would (should) have no way of knowing the resonance that word would have for him.
> 
> Unless something else is going on...


I think it was just coincidence. "Pond" was, in fact, the one word that best described the danger... it just happened that "Pond" was also the one word that got the Doctor's attention (and Vastra and Jenny both knew that).

Of course, the Doctor probably thinks at this point that there is very few instances of pure coincidence, particularly where he is involved.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

busyba said:


> Vastra and her wife appeared to be impressed with the response. I didn't get it.
> 
> Anyone?


When Vastra and Jenny went looking for a life partner neither of them chose a male.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

busyba said:


> I was mildly amused that the tavern where Clara worked was the "Rose and Crown", which is the same name as the tavern in the England section of the Epcot World Showcase at Disney World.
> 
> I wonder if there's any significance.


Rose is also the name of the first episode of the new era and one of the Doctor's favorite companions.

And there is such a thing as noble crowns (Donna Noble).


----------



## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

moot said:


> What my own wife and I didn't get was the choice of the word "Pond". Sure, it's a clever choice that appeals to both us as the viewers and the Doctor, but given one single word to express how important it was for the Doctor to come help, why would Clara choose that? I thought for sure she'd say "Children".


Clara could have chosen 'children', but that seems like an obvious choice and since the Doctor is anything but normal it maybe wouldn't have been the best choice. The pond out front of the house was obviously important too, and I suspect she has a sort of sixth-sense/instinct that made her want to say 'pond' instead. She probably didn't know the significance to the Doctor.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Now that you've mentioned it, Clara does look like Mary Ann. I would mind seeing her in white shorts.


I wouldn't mind seeing her out of white shorts.


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> The Doctor having a "Screw the ungrateful bastids" attitude is certainly different from the first 30 years of Doctor Who that I watched. I don't like it.





MarkofT said:


> It wasn't a "Screw the ungrateful bastids" attitude. It was a "Every time I get involved, someone dies" attitude.


I like seeing the darker Doctor. To be honest, I'm still holding on canon of the Classic series - in "Trial of a Time Lord" (1986) - it was hinted the Doctor would grow darker. (The Valeyard was actually a "distillation" of the Doctor's "evil side" from his 12th regeneration).

After seeing the Doctor at the end of the "Waters of Mars" - I think it plays a nice narrative tone.

Bad Thing Happens -> Doctor checks out/burned out/gets angry -> finds a new companion -> Things are better for a while -> Repeat.

Meanwhile - the Doctor rotates from a personality of modesty/helping from shadows to extreme arrogance/all powerful.

You can't have the highs without the lows. At some point he's going to win big, and at some point he's going to need to redeem himself. Either way, I think it's a formula that works.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But why would that get the Doctor to take up her case? She would (should) have no way of knowing the resonance that word would have for him.
> 
> Unless something else is going on...


I probably would have gone with the word "mystery."

I liked this episode a lot. So glad to see the Silurian and the sontaran again - both are great characters. I took an instant liking to Clara.

The comedy bit with the memory worm was ridiculous - I loved it.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

danterner said:


> I probably would have gone with the word "mystery."
> 
> I liked this episode a lot. So glad to see the Silurian and the sontaran again - both are great characters. I took an instant liking to Clara.
> 
> The comedy bit with the memory worm was ridiculous - I loved it.


"Oi! Don't try to run away! Stay where you are!" "Why would I run? I know what's going to happen next, and it's funny."

Another good bit was once they got up onto the roof. "You're going to have to take those clothes off." <gasp> "I didn't mean..."


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

danterner said:


> I probably would have gone with the word "mystery."


The problem is, "realistically" (and yes, I know we're talking Doctor Who here), any word she would have come up with wouldn't have gotten to him. That is, any word that somebody who didn't know the Doctor would have come up with in that situation.

Unless there's something going on here that we don't know about yet. And yes, I know we're talking Doctor Who here.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

MarkofT said:


> It wasn't a "Screw the ungrateful bastids" attitude. It was a "Every time I get involved, someone dies" attitude.


Didn't Vastra say that the Doctor feels unappreciated for saving the world(s) so many times or something to that effect?


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Does Rob have me on ignore?

Or is my hypothesis not 'realistic'?


----------



## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

murgatroyd said:


> Does Rob have me on ignore?
> 
> Or is my hypothesis not 'realistic'?


I think you're #2 idea is more on target, but I also think it's more than that - I think her choice of word was "guided" in a sense, much like "bad wolf". I don't think she knows all about the Doctor, but I do think she's cosmically fated to meet up with him.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

murgatroyd said:


> Does Rob have me on ignore?
> 
> Or is my hypothesis not 'realistic'?


I go with "not realistic."

You make nice excuses for the writer, but I really don't think "pond" would be the end result of any off-the-cuff thought process designed to intrigue a detective.

I think the only reason she said "pond" was because the writer thought it would be a good word to intrigue the Doctor, not that there was any, ahem, realistic chance that that's what she'd say.

Unless there's something else going on (have I mentioned that possibility before?)...

[edit] One thing your explanation does kind of point out, however, is the flat-out silliness of the "one-word" game, which again seems to be a writer's trick to get her to say "pond."


----------



## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

Clara is one cute woman. I like her and she will be a good companion.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Kamakzie said:


> Clara is one cute woman. I like her and she will be a good companion.


Yes, and I also hope I haven't given the impression I don't like this episode. I thought it was great...my concerns with the one-word game and its outcome are more of a nitpick, which I am guessing will be retroactively resolved when we find out what was really going on in that scene somewhere down the road.


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> [edit] One thing your explanation does kind of point out, however, is the flat-out silliness of the "one-word" game, which again seems to be a writer's trick to get her to say "pond."


I found the one-word game intriguing.

On the other hand, my favorite part of _The Red Green Show_ is the word game.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I liked the one word game too--very challenging. Also the memory worm was cute. I'm not into Dr. Who enough to always recognize characters from previous episodes, but it was a good show anyway even with missing some of the nuances. While I never got tired of Amy Pond, I think I'll like the new girl even better. :up:


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)




----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

gchance said:


>


People think she looks like Mary Ann? I get more of a Winnie Cooper vibe.


----------



## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

Philosofy said:


> People think she looks like Mary Ann? I get more of a Winnie Cooper vibe.


She looks like all sorts of hot to me!


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Please spoilarize as you see fit: are we going to get a new actor playing the doctor?


Short answer, no. Longer answer - yes....eventually!


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> People think she looks like Mary Ann? I get more of a Winnie Cooper vibe.


I was thinking the same thing.

This was the first Matt Smith episode I liked. I think he's a horrible actor and a lousy doctor. I haven't rewatched a single one of his episodes, and I love this show. I hope this bodes well for the new season.

The whole 'Doctor Who' thing, though, is going to get /really old/ really fast.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

OK, here's my Timey Wimey prediction for Clara: she's a time traveler that travels by reincarnation. She's from the far future, and her goal in life is to become one of the Doctor's companions.


----------



## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> OK, here's my Timey Wimey prediction for Clara: she's a time traveler that travels by reincarnation. She's from the far future, and her goal in life is to become one of the Doctor's companions.


That would send a really weird message. "Don't like your life? Kill yourself and be reborn..."

Besides, I don't think she knew who the Doctor was before meeting him.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> OK, here's my Timey Wimey prediction for Clara: she's a time traveler that travels by reincarnation. She's from the far future, and her goal in life is to become one of the Doctor's companions.


Oookay.

Somehow, given her birth date, I'm expecting a relationship with the doctors granddaughter.

I'd say Tardis but they've already done that.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Mars Rocket said:


> That would send a really weird message. "Don't like your life? Kill yourself and be reborn..."
> 
> Besides, I don't think she knew who the Doctor was before meeting him.


I agree with the last. Even though she met him "before" or maybe "after" when she didn't recognize him either.

Her stumbling onto the tardis says she had no prior knowledge.


----------



## MarkofT (Jul 27, 2001)

Did she ever see the Tardis in her previous appearance? I don't recall any 2 way video where the Doctor or Oswin saw each other. But that's relying on my memory of the once viewed episode.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

MarkofT said:


> Did she ever see the Tardis in her previous appearance? I don't recall any 2 way video where the Doctor or Oswin saw each other. But that's relying on my memory of the once viewed episode.


No. The Doctor, Rory, and Amy were tossed down onto the Asylum by the Daleks. The Tardis was kept back on the Dalek ship.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

MarkofT said:


> Did she ever see the Tardis in her previous appearance? I don't recall any 2 way video where the Doctor or Oswin saw each other. But that's relying on my memory of the once viewed episode.


She didn't see the Tardis but she saw the Doctor. If Asylum happened first for her and she has any memory, she would know the Doctor.


----------



## moot (Apr 8, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> She didn't see the Tardis but she saw the Doctor. If Asylum happened first for her and she has any memory, she would know the Doctor.


Ah-ha! But didn't the end of that episode result in her erasing knowledge of the Doctor from the memories of all Daleks, which, at the time, could possibly have included herself?

Not that I think that's the answer, but it's interesting nonetheless.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

moot said:


> Ah-ha! But didn't the end of that episode result in her erasing knowledge of the Doctor from the memories of all Daleks, which, at the time, could possibly have included herself?
> 
> Not that I think that's the answer, but it's interesting nonetheless.


You are assuming the order for her to be Dalek first then Snowmen. Could be the other way. And she showed no knowledge of the Doctor either time.

Besides, she made them forget him before they talked face to face and she found she was a Dalek. She "met" the Doctor after the wipe which she did before she opened to door to her chamber.


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

JoBeth66 said:


> The whole 'Doctor Who' thing, though, is going to get /really old/ really fast.


I like the "Doctor Who?" thing. Mostly for the fact that there's something *cool* about a show being able to start to incorporate the show title into the storyline a few years after the debut of the show. Albeit, a few means nearly fifty in this case. In my opinion, the longevity of the show has given it the right to have this kind of fun.


----------



## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

Jenna Louise Coleman could read the entire Obamacare bill on C-Span and I'd tune in.


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Please spoilarize as you see fit: are we going to get a new actor playing the doctor?


In a somewhat recent Entertainment Weekly (August):



Spoiler



While Smith seemed to suggest in a 2011 interview that he might also be departing the tardis someday soon, today he says he has "no firm intentions to leave as yet" and is looking forward to playing the doctor during the Time Lord's 50th-anniversary celebrations next year.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

sushikitten said:


> In a somewhat recent Entertainment Weekly (August):


Speculation about Matt Smith started when in some interview he said something like, "Everything ends eventually". Everyone ran with it and took this to assume that his departure would be imminent. It was silly, of course he would eventually leave the part, just like eventually Doctor Who will end. That doesn't mean it's happening anytime soon.

Greg


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Watched Captain America the other day and, sure enough, there was Jenna Louise Coleman...in 3D!!!

(She's one of the girls at the future-fair that Steve Rogers visits).


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)




----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

gchance said:


> It was silly, of course he would eventually leave the part, just like eventually Doctor Who will end.


It will? Bet folks thought that 20 years ago, too.


----------



## Idearat (Nov 26, 2000)

sonnik said:


> I like the "Doctor Who?" thing. Mostly for the fact that there's something *cool* about a show being able to start to incorporate the show title into the storyline a few years after the debut of the show. Albeit, a few means nearly fifty in this case. In my opinion, the longevity of the show has given it the right to have this kind of fun.


They did it with the cold open of every _That Girl_ episode.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> It will? Bet folks thought that 20 years ago, too.


Of course, 20 years ago it HAD ended!


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, 20 years ago it HAD ended!


Only for a decade or so....

That is not ending.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Only for a decade or so....
> 
> That is not ending.


It was only _mostly_ dead...


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> It was only mostly dead...


Brought back by true love.


----------



## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

jboehm said:


> Is the Doctor currently married? The tention was a little strong with no protests if he is married. I know they were going backwards in time thru their relationship. Did we already see the time were they they never meet again?


There's the hard part, "currently"?

That and The Doctor has always played ineptly hard to get. Perhaps better to appeal those in the audience likewise afflicted.

While I liked the episode, it smacked of planning on out of sync time schemes a la the whole River Song story arc. A certain bit of that is clever, but I'd hate to see it repeated again. It's just not that much fun layering THAT much meta on top of the programming.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

wkearney99 said:


> There's the hard part, "currently"?
> 
> That and The Doctor has always played ineptly hard to get. Perhaps better to appeal those in the audience likewise afflicted.
> 
> While I liked the episode, it smacked of planning on out of sync time schemes a la the whole River Song story arc. A certain bit of that is clever, but I'd hate to see it repeated again. It's just not that much fun layering THAT much meta on top of the programming.


I didn't get the River time feel. Nothing says that Oswin is out of sync with the Doctor a la River. Nothing says she is in sync. Nothing says she is anything more or less out of sync than you or me.

Besides, how can you complain about time synching on a show about time travel?


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Does anyone know if Alex Kingston is due to appear this season? Or ever again?


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> Does anyone know if Alex Kingston is due to appear this season? Or ever again?


She has appeared on _Private Practice_


Spoiler



which has been cancelled, so not much chance of seeing that character again before the show winds up


 and _NCIS_


Spoiler



but there's no indication she'll show up again, although I hope they bring her character back


 -- at least she's getting some work over here.

So I expect we will see Alex Kingston again. Whether that will be as Doctor River Song, or someone else, only the casting directors know for sure.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> Does anyone know if Alex Kingston is due to appear this season? Or ever again?


Complete conjecture, but I'd bet we will see a lot of characters on or around the 50th anniversary.


----------



## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

Philosofy said:


> Does anyone know if Alex Kingston is due to appear this season? Or ever again?


Hopefully no. Most annoying actress ever.


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Flop said:


> Hopefully no. Most annoying actress ever.


Blasphemer!


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Flop said:


> Hopefully no. Most annoying actress ever.


Not really, sweetie.


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Just watched it tonight and definitely need to rewatch. But in the meantime...did I hear someone refer to Clara as a bomb maker at one point? When they (maybe the Doctor) were talking about how she wasn't really a governess or something? Anyone have a clue what I'm talking about? 

I cannot wait to see how Clara/Oswin gets resolved. And I can't believe how much I like her already since I really liked the Ponds.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

sushikitten said:


> Just watched it tonight and definitely need to rewatch. But in the meantime...did I hear someone refer to Clara as a bomb maker at one point? When they (maybe the Doctor) were talking about how she wasn't really a governess or something? Anyone have a clue what I'm talking about?


"Bar maid" is what he said.


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Not really, sweetie.


Oh, well played.


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

LoadStar said:


> "Bar maid" is what he said.


Heh. That would make MUCH more sense. Thanks!


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

In Asylum of the Daleks, did Oswin say she was vice president in charge of entertainment on the Alaska?


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> In Asylum of the Daleks, did Oswin say she was vice president in charge of entertainment on the Alaska?


"Oswin Oswald, junior entertainment manager, Starship Alaska."


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

On a related note: We've solved our mystery. Let me start by saying I'm the only Dr. Who fan in my family (well, my brother is, but he lives 1,000 miles away.) Before Christmas, we found two angel statues on either side of my wife's garage. I thought she put them there, she thought I did. But then we found out we didn't. So we asked her brother, who got us a gazing ball for my birthday one year. Nope. We asked my father-in-law. Nope. We couldn't figure out who left those statues there, and we thought we asked everybody. So it was a mystery until today. My wife's best friend's mom just went into assisted living, and those statues were at the house she just left. Completely innocent, but for a couple weeks every time I came home I was thinking about the weeping angels.


----------



## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> I didn't get the River time feel. Nothing says that Oswin is out of sync with the Doctor a la River. Nothing says she is in sync. Nothing says she is anything more or less out of sync than you or me.
> 
> Besides, how can you complain about time synching on a show about time travel?


It's one thing to have the whole show jumping around, that's to be expected. And some degree of overlap on the characters adds interest (Rory the robot, Capt. Jack, etc). But the whole River thing just pushed it into an area that required too much and detracted from the plots being presented in the shows themselves. And while "spoilers" was cute the first few times, it got old, fast.


----------



## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

Love the angel story. Creepy.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

murgatroyd said:


> So I expect we will see Alex Kingston again. Whether that will be as Doctor River Song, or someone else, only the casting directors know for sure.


Alex Kingston burned a lot of bridges here in the US over her release from ER, I would imagine we won't see her in a full time capacity on any show for quite a while. I could be wrong though.

This from 2004, Too old at 41, Kingston falls foul of Hollywood's youth policy. We haven't seen her in much stateside since she went on the Ageism Tour. 

Greg


----------



## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

gchance said:


> We haven't seen her in much stateside since she went on the Ageism Tour.


I didn't hear her complaining about how much better Hollywood treats young women than it does young men.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

wkearney99 said:


> It's one thing to have the whole show jumping around, that's to be expected. And some degree of overlap on the characters adds interest (Rory the robot, Capt. Jack, etc). But the whole River thing just pushed it into an area that required too much and detracted from the plots being presented in the shows themselves. And while "spoilers" was cute the first few times, it got old, fast.


I totally disagree. I loved it. Loved "Hello, Sweetie" and "Spoilers" and all the other stuff ("I really hate you" "No you don't"). It was fun.

But there was no need to try to unravel all the timey-wimey stuff. Just go along for the ride. Why did it "require" much of anything other than acceptance of the story?

Still, how is what we have seen of Oswin anything like the River story?


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> ...
> 
> Still, how is what we have seen of Oswin anything like the River story?


It's similar in that the same person shows up in different times for the Doctor. And Oswin seems to have romantic goals with the Doctor. Which could be some interesting story points if Riversong comes back. Will Oswin be Riversong's rival? Or will they hit it off so well we will get some IBIMB moments?


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

I haven't seen the SAME person showing up - just incarnations of that person who happen to have the same name. There is not (as yet) any suggestion that Oswin is time travelling, but it looks like we're seeing descendants of the earlier incarnation as opposed to the same person whereas River Song IS time travelling!

...and is it not fair to say that just about ALL companions have romantic interests with The Doctor? Even Amy 'settles' for Rory after she accepts that The Doctor is probably unobtainable.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Maybe she's a 'ganger.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

TonyTheTiger said:


> I haven't seen the SAME person showing up - just incarnations of that person who happen to have the same name. There is not (as yet) any suggestion that Oswin is time travelling, but it looks like we're seeing descendants of the earlier incarnation as opposed to the same person whereas River Song IS time travelling!


This.

Or as the Doctor would say, imagine it is the same person travelling in time differently than me, but it is not, unless it helps you understand, but that it is not at all.

So, everyone who the Doctor encounters at different times is like River? That would include Amy and Rory as there are large gaps between visits from the Doctor for them but they are not big for him and vice versa.

IT IS A SHOW ABOUT TIME TRAVEL! All relationships are going to be like that. Oswin is not like River, River is like anyone that is not currently travelling with the Doctor uninterrupted.



TonyTheTiger said:


> ...and is it not fair to say that just about ALL companions have romantic interests with The Doctor? Even Amy 'settles' for Rory after she accepts that The Doctor is probably unobtainable.


Amy didn't settle for Rory and his stupid face. The attempted fling with the Doctor was the result of cold feet and a final fling, not wanting the Doctor over Rory. Geez, several storylines have hammered home that Rory is her hero and her love.


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Rory certainly became that, but the earlier timeline suggests she had more of a thing for The Doctor after their first meeting. She was drawing pictures and making 'Raggedy Doctors' way before she met Rory!


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Rory certainly became that, but the earlier timeline suggests she had more of a thing for The Doctor after their first meeting. She was drawing pictures and making 'Raggedy Doctors' way before she met Rory!


It was her IMAGINARY FRIEND that she started drawing at 12 years old!

Jeez. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

And, Rory was in her life all the time. They grew up together. He knew all about the "Raggedy Doctor."


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Whatever you believe.

You win the internets.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

TonyTheTiger said:


> I haven't seen the SAME person showing up - just incarnations of that person who happen to have the same name. There is not (as yet) any suggestion that Oswin is time travelling, but it looks like we're seeing descendants of the earlier incarnation as opposed to the same person whereas River Song IS time travelling!


Though there was no indication that barmaid Clara had a child.


----------



## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Whatever you believe.
> 
> You win the internets.


Have you seen the end of Angels take Manhattan? How would you explain that if Amy really preferred the Doctor to Rory? It would seem to give her an obvious exit to the relationship if she wasn't really into him.


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

At that time, she didn't. She grew to love Rory and realize she had more of a future with him after the Doctor had moved on. At the time of Angels, Rory was firmly established as the love of her life. I never claimed that Amy would take The Doctor over Rory, just that he was her first love/crush.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyTheTiger said:


> At that time, she didn't. She grew to love Rory and realize she had more of a future with him after the Doctor had moved on. At the time of Angels, Rory was firmly established as the love of her life. I never claimed that Amy would take The Doctor over Rory, just that he was her first love/crush.


Yes, I always felt that she had a girlhood crush on The Doctor; settled for Rory; and then (after The Doctor came back into her life) realized she had "settled" for Mr. Right (well, Mr. Pond Williams, but you know what I mean).

Rory stood much more of a chance against The Doctor than he did against Amy's fantasy of The Doctor.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

TonyTheTiger said:


> At that time, she didn't. She grew to love Rory and realize she had more of a future with him after the Doctor had moved on. At the time of Angels, Rory was firmly established as the love of her life. I never claimed that Amy would take The Doctor over Rory, just that he was her first love/crush.


Then the show runners/writers didn't get through to you. The flirtation with the Doctor was a red herring so the audience would wonder just as Rory did. They Leo reiterating her choice of Rory including why they broke up and why she chose to go back in time with him.

Go back and watch again. Watch the Silence episodes. Hear what Amy says when they can only hear her. It is a raw confession of consistent love.

I have no desire to "win the internets" but am discussing a point of fiction.


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

A point of fiction as YOU see it! I still see nothing to back up your claims apart from what you got out of it and I still disagree, so unless you have evidence of how "the show runners/writers didn't get through to me", this conversation is over.

We should agree to disagree and move on. After all, you are "discussing a point of fiction", not fact.


----------



## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

TonyTheTiger said:


> We should agree to disagree and move on.


Agreed, he's right and you're wrong.


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

wkearney99 said:


> Agreed, he's right and you're wrong.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Maybe Oswin IS River.


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> Maybe Oswin IS River.


She has some connection to the beginnings of the Doctor. Her birthdate of 11/23 is a clue.

Plus we are heading into the 50th anniversary.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> She has some connection to the beginnings of the Doctor. Her birthdate of 11/23 is a clue.
> 
> Plus we are heading into the 50th anniversary.


Presumably in an earlier episode we saw River (or a child that might have been River) regenerate in an Alley. Could River have met the Doctor in another incarnation and pursued the relationship afterwards? Probably.

My suggestion was more of a joke than anything else as I think they've run the River mystery long enough that it's not fresh any more. It's likely Qswin is the result of some "Chroniton Explosion" that sent her to different periods and places across time and space. Didn't the Dalek Planet explode?


----------

