# Mac Users lack Tivo togo support



## tonyf3

Unbelievable! Have the development team take a field trip to an Apple retail store and then tell me why the finest most powerful Media platform in the computer business is basically being ignored by Tivo. There's no time line or even a suggestion of a release date. Working hard doesn't cut it. 
AAC file support was supposedly being worked on hard for over a year now.

Look, the Cable companies are now offering set top boxes for $9.95. 
Tivo needs all the users it can get and they basically are abandoning the Mac community.

All this build up, and it's....sorry Apple. Windows Media 10? Have a nice day?
We're working hard on that...someday. What!!!!

Newsflash: Broadcast networks are using Quicktime as a media standard for delivery to multiple platforms. Hello!

You've got to come up with something better than market share BS. Try telling that to BMW & ipod owners.


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## SavMan

Agreed. Absolutely unacceptable. Mac users make up a sizable number of TiVo users, and for them to forsake us like this is simply abhorrent. I just bought a new TiVo for my family and convinced my friend's family to buy one for Christmas, there is a TiVo cling in my apartment window and on my car (along with an antenna ball). This sort of crap is making me rethink my loyalties. It may be a long while before I suggest a TiVo to someone again, rewards program be damned.


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## Duvs

Let me know how it works out with the cable company box when you try to:

a) Play music or view photos on it that are stored on your Mac

b) Get any kind of recorded content off of it

The simple reason is that the cable companies may never provide this kind of functionality. I don't know about you but I wouldn't even attempt to install anything on my PC developed by Comcast, even their cable modem "install" CD breaks more PC's than it helps and all it is doing is modifying some IE registry settings and installing their crap support utils.

I believe Tivo to be smart enough to be doing the only thing it can do without the CableCard 2.0 spec, and that is to add mobility and multimedia features that the CableCo's can't touch for a while. Then once CableCard 2 is done and I can do OnDemand and PPV and truly use my Tivo as a replacement for by Cable Box, that will be a marketable device.

I know it's been said a million times but Mac's are about 4% of the computing world, since TiVo is a multimedia company it's possible their user base is more like 10 maybe even 15% Mac. Just have a little patience, they have publicly commited on their announcements to providing a Mac version of TTG. I'm also sure once it is out it will be superior to our Windows version in every way possible just like the last release.

Duvs


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## Unix_Beard

Sure, cable companies can't provide the HMO functionality but Apple IS today with iTunes and the Airport Express. itunes and iPhoto are already completely shareable within a house LAN and its just a matter of time until things completely converge. 

One of the things that brought me to Tivo rather than ReplayTV was their apparent agnostic view on computer platforms. Once a company chooses one platform over another, I begin to question their loyalty to me as a customer.


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## SavMan

TiVo has committed NOTHING to the Mac release. They say they are working hard, but give absolutely no idea of how long we'll have to wait for it. Indeed, they make no promise at all of ever getting it to us.

Really, I don't know if it's worth even hoping, TiVo was stupid enough to go with WMA format. You think MSFT had something to do with this? Maybe their particular brand of business ethics helped out? And really, is that the sort of image TiVo, a corporation almost entirely spread through grassroots advertising by users, wants to align themselves with?

I'm thoroughly disgusted with this entire development. I heard the announcement on my 6am news broadcast as I was drifting off to sleep, so I literally *jumped* out of bed to get online. Only to find out that TiVo has shown they have no sense of loyalty to what I can only presume is its most dedicated group of customers. We Mac users are tenacious and used to proselytizing for our platform, and I've never heard stronger testaments to TiVo's usefulness than I have from Mac users. We'll see how that goes now that TiVo has turned its back on us.

P.S:


> Let me know how it works out with the cable company box when you try to:
> 
> a) Play music or view photos on it that are stored on your Mac


Photos are useless to me, I'm better off using my desktop or laptop anyways. For $100, I can get an AirPort Express, which will function as a full wireless router, bridge, adaptor, and also connect with AirTunes. This will give me better sound (direct to my stereo), AND play the AACs (DRM'd or otherwise) that TiVo's been dragging their feet on for so long. This is less than the cost of either of my TiVo boxes. Add $9.99 a month for any of the Cable or Satellite PVRs (all of which have Dual Tuners, mind you) and I have a much better value, don't I?

Of course, I wish I could just use my TiVo. As a Mac user, I'm used to paying a premium for superior ease-of-use and service, as well as to reward innovators rather than also-rans. But it seems I'm no longer considered worth TiVo's time.



> b) Get any kind of recorded content off of it


Well, I can't do that anyway, now can I? :down:


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## VinceA

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *Really, I don't know if it's worth even hoping, TiVo was stupid enough to go with WMA format. *


Ummm, TiVo doesn't support WMAs. The only way to play WMAs through TiVos is by using third-party software.


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## SavMan

Excuse me *VinceA*, I made a mistake there. TiVo chose to run TiVoToGo through Windows Media Player. However, the files themselves are MPEG2 not WMA. I was mislead by another poster to believe that the actual files were Windows Media. In any case, the point remains -- choosing a Media Key that only works through MSFT's proprietary system is most likely the reason for this delay, and that makes me a little peeved.


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## benvon

Hmm... yeah, I'm dissapointed too. I only have Macs at home and I would very much like to use this cool new feature.

On the other hand...

Tivo mentions that VLC works on Windows 2000 for playing the content. VLC has a very, very stable and good port to Mac OS X. Why can't VLC on Mac OS X play it when VLC can play it on Winders?


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## VinceA

From a quick look at the documentation, it looks like you use TiVo Desktop to choose a program to view on your computer, enter a password, "something happens" then a media player (WMP10, VLC, etc) shows the program. I think the delay for Macs is in the "something happens" section. Maybe there's some decoding/transcoding/etc process that appears to be outside of the media player's control. So, TiVo isn't tied to Windows Media Player but the decoding/transcoding/etc portion for Macs isn't ready yet.

Of course, I could be wrong (probably am)


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## SteveJ

Not including Mac support is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. TiVo just doesn't have its act together---to screw over a portion of its user base that likely constitutes some of its biggest proponents is baffling. Additionally, to require the purchase of special software to burn shows to viewable DVDs (which incidentally probably also will never get a Mac version even if TiVo someday releases an updated version of their own desktop) is also ridiculous.

Disrepect, no support for HDTV cable, and a higher price than what I can get from Comcast---that's it, cya TiVo.


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## IrishTiVo

After just buying my second TiVo, I'm a little pissed that there is no support for Macs. I've had a show or two waiting for DVD backup for over a year! Sigh...


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## briguymaine

please don't make me get a PC... I like what some folks are saying that MacWorld next week may reveal some cool Tivo integration, but I doubt it. But, I'm staying positive and things may happen!


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## rainwater

Does anyone read the actual details that Tivo posted? They said they are working on the Mac solution. They wouldn't say that if they weren't going to have one. It's not available now. I know that sucks if you have a Mac, but thats the facts.


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## nealm

As a Mac only household, we are used to this treatment from all software makers.

Interestingly, Microsoft is one of the best at supporting the Mac through great releases of the Office software. So I wouldn't be too quick to bash them.

Oh well, the wait continues....


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## Unix_Beard

> _Originally posted by briguymaine _
> *please don't make me get a PC... I like what some folks are saying that MacWorld next week may reveal some cool Tivo integration, but I doubt it. But, I'm staying positive and things may happen! *


I find it hard to believe that Jobs would say anything about Tivo at Macworld. Tivo is inconsequential to Apple - the only news worthy of Macworld would be Apple acquiring Tivo.

Now, I wouldn't bet against Apple assuming the market completely with a new gadget.


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## mac_media

I don't think (although hope springs eternal) that anything will be announced at MacWorld. I have been a Mac User for 17 years and have become used to waiting longer for releases than all my friends with Wintel boxes. I believe the software will come, and with the current iteration of Tivo Desktop as an example, I believe it will be robust. We do constitute a relative minority when it comes to the percentage of desktop users. However, I do not believe that this is a reason that some one who paid $X for a Tivo should get less use out of it just because a Macintosh better suits his or her needs. I do also acknowlegdge that Tivo has more competition from MediaCenter on the Windows side than anything comparable on the Macintosh side. I guess the point of this ramble is just that I, like many of you, feel slighted but I also do understand the business side of the equation. I have been very happy with Tivo and will continue to be, I'll just wait patiently until I'm able to share in my friends' enthuasiam over this new feature.


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## scheckeNYK

Here's my opinion in the Mac debacle. This is coming from a former employee at an Apple retail store. About 18 months ago the Apple stores were getting Tivos in stock and were ready to sell them. They were abruptly pulled from the inventory and sent back to warehouse with no rhyme or reason. The assumption was that Apple was considering developing it's own DVR. After many moons had passed without any sign of this, I basically wrote it off as a simple fickle decision by the merchandising team. It seems Apple is all gung0ho on iPod variations and is perhaps not ready to jump into the DVR market.

Now that I've seen this development, my mind has changed again. I think we will see something at MacWorld, but not Tivo compatibility related. I think Apple will debut their own settop DVR to be a physcial digital lifestyle hub. I think we can all agree that it was a major shock that there was ZERO support for T2G on Macs. Perhaps this wasn't at the behest of Tivo, but Apple instead? I think this could be really great, and I wouldn't hesitate to jump ship over to an Apple branded DVR. Their software is usually on point, and I bet it would have all the features we've asked for. They already have a very easy to use subscription format with the iTMS, so that's no hangup.

Imagine an all white settop DVR with built in airport card, able to stream iTunes, iPhoto, and all your programs back and forth from the unit to your Mac. Fully integrated with iMovie, FCP, iDVD, and/or DVDSP using the QuickTime Codec. Remote programming from any Mac and sharing across a network. One touch backup of programs via FireWire to external harddrives. What else could they cram into the next big thing? The only problem I see here is price point. If its a proprietary Apple unit, you know it will be up there. The iPods alone are between $300 and $600.


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## cwoody222

Apple stores almost selling TiVo's? I've never heard that rumor ANYWHERE. I don't believe it.

Apple w/ their own DVR? I've heard that rumor a million times and I still don't believe it. I'd LOVE it if it were true, but I just don't see it happening.

I sure hope I'm wrong, though. (and maybe, just maybe, the sub-$500 headless iMac is the answer)


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## tonyf3

I like scheckeNYK's thinking on this. How about ipod video player too. Has anyone noticed the horizontal shape of an ipod. Practically 16x9. Turn it on it's side add a flip up Color screen + an AV/file transfer dock to TiVo or Apple and presto. ipod Video toGo. I think this deserves a picture.

I sincerely hope MacWorld SF brings some relief on the Mac support issue. 
In the meantime Canopus ADVC-55 via Firewire to idvd is filling the void.


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## sa-gamer

For those of you that pre-paid for Tivo2Go I would ask for a refund! I did when I found out my Ti994A wouldn't be supported!


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## Unix_Beard

> _Originally posted by scheckeNYK _
> *Imagine an all white settop DVR with built in airport card, able to stream iTunes, iPhoto, and all your programs back and forth from the unit to your Mac. Fully integrated with iMovie, FCP, iDVD, and/or DVDSP using the QuickTime Codec. Remote programming from any Mac and sharing across a network. One touch backup of programs via FireWire to external harddrives. What else could they cram into the next big thing? The only problem I see here is price point. If its a proprietary Apple unit, you know it will be up there. The iPods alone are between $300 and $600. *


As long as it has an ethernet jack as well, you outline my wish completely. Would this device run Tivo software? If not, why would Tivo listen to Apple and not include HMO support? It seems to me they would be direct competitors.


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## scheckeNYK

> _Originally posted by cwoody _
> *Apple stores almost selling TiVo's? I've never heard that rumor ANYWHERE. I don't believe it.
> 
> Apple w/ their own DVR? I've heard that rumor a million times and I still don't believe it. I'd LOVE it if it were true, but I just don't see it happening.
> 
> I sure hope I'm wrong, though. (and maybe, just maybe, the sub-$500 headless iMac is the answer) *


I can 100% guarantee you that they were in the inventory to be sold. 40s and 80s, series 2. Then, like I said, yanked without notice before they hit shelves. Around the same time, Tivo offered Apple employees corporate discounts on S2 units, which is where mine came from. I have no definitive way to back this info up, other than the word of a still current employee, who won't comment due to her still working for Apple.

Point is, there has definitely been a relationship between the two that has soured on multiple occasions. Apple is VERY secretive and I wouldn't be surprised if they keep pulling out in favor of developing their own wares. And personally, like I said, I would prefer it. I love my Tivo, but I can't wait to see how Apple would revolutionize the DVR.


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## scheckeNYK

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *As long as it has an ethernet jack as well, you outline my wish completely. Would this device run Tivo software? If not, why would Tivo listen to Apple and not include HMO support? It seems to me they would be direct competitors. *


Yes, I imagine they'd also have an onboard ethernet jack. Could also have a built in iPod dock (a la the headless iMac), and a multi-format photo card reader slot. Would FireWire i/o be a good feature? for use as a DV bridge?

But I do see it going the route of direct competetors. Apple could win that war in my estimation, and if their software is really on point it would be another vehicle in converting more windows users. Which then leaves the Mac-less Tivo in the dust fighting for what's left of the PC market. Okay, okay, so that dream is a bit overdone, but Apple has been gathering a lot of steam these last few years, and its all been driven by personal indulgence items. I'm sure they are aware of that and want to become the leader in another arena.


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## zoinks

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *Unbelievable! Have the development team take a field trip to an Apple retail store and then tell me why the finest most powerful Media platform in the computer business is basically being ignored by Tivo. There's no time line or even a suggestion of a release date. Working hard doesn't cut it.
> AAC file support was supposedly being worked on hard for over a year now.
> *


Aren't you used to getting Mac software a few weeks or months after the PC version is released? It seems common among most applications I have run across (IF they are nice enough to offer Mac support)

I have only had my iMac for a few months but have already realized and accepted this.

I have both a PC and a MAC, and the MAC version of Tivo Home Media Server Application is MUCH better than the PC's. So I don't think Tivo has ignored Mac users at all.


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## timg

Sure, I'm used to getting software months after the PC version is released. That'd be fine if Tivo committed to that, but at the moment they have committed to nothing. "we are working on a Mac version" is not the same as "we plan to release the Mac version in Q2 of 2005".

If Tivo was really concerned with cross platform compatibility, why did they choose a proprietary Windows only format?


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## Unix_Beard

On Apple selling Tivo units:

_TiVo CEO: Select Apple Stores to sell TiVo systems
May 23, 2003 - 15:13 EDT__ TiVo CEO Michael Ramsay said Thursday in the company's first quarter financial conference call that select Apple Stores will soon be carrying TiVo Digital Video Recorders (DVR). After mentioning that TiVo's new Home Media Option runs on the Mac, Ramsay said, "In fact our growing relationship with Apple has been a really good thing for our company and we're now moving into distribution, with TiVo's being available at selected Apple retail stores."_

http://www.macminute.com/2003/05/23/tivo


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## SavMan

*rainwater:*


> Does anyone read the actual details that Tivo posted? They said they are working on the Mac solution. They wouldn't say that if they weren't going to have one. It's not available now. I know that sucks if you have a Mac, but thats the facts.


Bull****. No facts were given. "We are working on it," can just as likely mean, "we decided not to make a version for Mac, but we sure as hell don't want 20% of our user base jumping ship in protest, so we'll make them hold out for a year and see how many more people we can get to jump on and buy our box." Kind of like promising TiVoToGo as included with the package for the last few months, but in reality requiring the purchase of codecs and a burning program. They new damn well it would cost a lot of users money, but decided to fleece the anyway for their bottom line.

As an example of "we're working on it," meaning "never gonna happen," see Half-Life for Mac. I just hope TiVo realizes the numbers and vocalness of its Mac user contingent and wises up soon, or there will be some MAJOR losses for this corporation. As I've said before, Mac users are incredibly unified and stubborn. One of my friends today SENT HIS BOX BACK because of this. I'm not going that far, yet.

Has anyone found an official channel in which to notify TiVo of their huge mistake yet?


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## Unix_Beard

I was about to pay the lifetime fee for mine. I'm holding off now.


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## Morris Herman

I also am disappointed that Tivo has delayed the release of TTG for the Mac. Like many have said it here, the Mac community is a strong one and we are great proselytizers for a brand, but if we get crossed, our ire will be felt financially by Tivo.


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## bondgirl

> _Originally posted by scheckeNYK _
> *I can 100% guarantee you that they were in the inventory to be sold. 40s and 80s, series 2. Then, like I said, yanked without notice before they hit shelves. Around the same time, Tivo offered Apple employees corporate discounts on S2 units, which is where mine came from. I have no definitive way to back this info up, other than the word of a still current employee, who won't comment due to her still working for Apple.
> 
> Point is, there has definitely been a relationship between the two that has soured on multiple occasions. Apple is VERY secretive and I wouldn't be surprised if they keep pulling out in favor of developing their own wares. And personally, like I said, I would prefer it. I love my Tivo, but I can't wait to see how Apple would revolutionize the DVR. *


I can also verify, as an ex-apple employee, that there were Tivo units ready to be sold in the stockroom that never went on the shelves, and went back to the factory without seeing any action. I was made the same offer on a Tivo at an employee discount. However, our manager told employees that the reason apple decided we weren't going to be selling them is that they didn't want to train anyone on the features and benefits (time and money) and that apple decided it wanted retail stores to focus its energy on selling its own products. Airport Express was going to make HMO relatively moot, I think as well. Basically, she painted it as an inability between apple and tivo to reach an agreement about how the products would be marketed and sold in the stores. She or apple may have been blowing smoke however - I have no way to verify that what we were told is true, but that's the story we were sold at our store...

I am accustomed to waiting a little longer for Mac versions of things. I just got Tivo last week and am very happy with it so far. Plus the mac hacking community is usually strong enough to step up and fill the void if Tivo decides not to go forward with Tivo2Go for Macs. But I hope they will because I really am enjoying my Tivo so far and moving programs to my G5 so I could watch them while writing papers for grad school would just be heaven.  I'm going to be optimistic here...


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## tonyf3

Ok so, 
CES January 6-9 in Las Vegas. 
Expecting possible announcements of the Netflix download marriage,
more TiVo Togo etc.etc.

Macworld January 10-14 in San Francisco
Who knows....but there are almost always surprises.

So basically I think if we should have an answer from someone as to WHEN we'll see TiVo ToGo
for Mac and TiVo desktop 2.0 for Mac, by January 30th. Or something even better from Apple.

I think that's a reasonable expectation. If not, sharpen the pitch Forks


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## SullyND

> _Originally posted by Morris Herman _
> *I also am disappointed that Tivo has delayed the release of TTG for the Mac. Like many have said it here, the Mac community is a strong one and we are great proselytizers for a brand, but if we get crossed, our ire will be felt financially by Tivo. *


These kind of threads always amaze me. I'm sure somewhere there is someone who has studied this kind of product fanaticism.

Anyway, I just don't see why there is all the whining... Would people have preferred that TiVoToGo was delayed entirely for, say, 6 months so that Mac support would be available at the same time as PC? Think of it this way, we PC folks are going to be your Guinea Pigs...

Sully - who needs a PC to do his real work... but all things considered would prefer a Mac....


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## Unix_Beard

Sully - its statements like the last one that enflame these threads. Many of us do "real" work with Macs.


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## ralphpe

What I really want to know is whether the IT people are the ones who are working on bringing TTG to the Mac, or whether it's the lawyers. As every Mac user should be aware of, Macs are a minority, and when it comes to assigning the resources of a company, it makes sense to first focus on the larger market segment. Once things are going well in Windows land, I am sure they would be able to move people to work on the Mac project, and it will only be a matter of time.

But if the people working on the Mac solution are the lawyers or the marketeers, then I'd be a lot more skeptical. If DRM is closely tie to WMP, or if the Mac section of the market is considered inconsequential, than I am not sure what would happen


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## SullyND

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *Sully - its statements like the last one that enflame these threads. Many of us do "real" work with Macs. *


Never said no one could do "real work" on a Mac - only that I can't. One Word: AutoDesk

(Which is also why I said "all things considered _ would prefer a Mac....")_


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## jwedding

I work with a Dell at work for the same reason. I use an iMac at home because I like to. 


But you're just bear-baiting when you make a comment about real-work. Just don't poke the bear and you won't get the negative reactions. Unix was right, those are the comments that get people all riled up.

Welcome to the board!


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## SullyND

> _Originally posted by jwedding _
> *I work with a Dell at work for the same reason. I use an iMac at home because I like to.
> 
> But you're just bear-baiting when you make a comment about real-work. Just don't poke the bear and you won't get the negative reactions. Unix was right, those are the comments that get people all riled up.
> 
> Welcome to the board! *


Thanks for the Welcome - So to elaborate - My "real work" is what my employer pays me to do (I'm a "Graduate" [pre-license] architect)... My non "real work" are my side jobs, and though some of them are Mac friendly (Web development) the ones that pay best are not (Building Design Services) thus I need a PC at home...

The comment was "his [my] real work" not "any real work"


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## LeeG

Has anyone looked at the breakdown of mac vs pc tivo owners? Reading these boards, seems there is a large mac contingent (or they are more vocal).

I am also disappointed about the mac release, however, you never know if it wasn't apple's fault - things like this require tight DRM integration, and if Apple didn't want to help (I am sure microsoft was happy to help), either due to an Apple solution in the wings, or for whatever reason, that may be tivo's sticking point-

Lee
"You can have my mac when you pry it from my cold dead hands!"


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## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by SullyND _
> *These kind of threads always amaze me. I'm sure somewhere there is someone who has studied this kind of product fanaticism.
> 
> Anyway, I just don't see why there is all the whining... Would people have preferred that TiVoToGo was delayed entirely for, say, 6 months so that Mac support would be available at the same time as PC? Think of it this way, we PC folks are going to be your Guinea Pigs...
> 
> Sully - who needs a PC to do his real work... but all things considered would prefer a Mac.... *


Actually Sully, Yeah! I'd rather have them say upfront: Windows TTG in January and you can expect the Mac TTG version in June, and spare us all the unmitigated aggravation of flipping off the Creative Worlds favorite OS and it's rabidly loyal followers. If they had done that there would be no reason for this thread I started.

When your favorite child is messed with publicly the Parents usually are over protective and over react. So it's genetic with Mac users.


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## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by LeeG _
> *Has anyone looked at the breakdown of mac vs pc tivo owners? Reading these boards, seems there is a large mac contingent (or they are more vocal).
> 
> I am also disappointed about the mac release, however, you never know if it wasn't apple's fault - things like this require tight DRM integration, and if Apple didn't want to help (I am sure microsoft was happy to help), either due to an Apple solution in the wings, or for whatever reason, that may be tivo's sticking point-
> 
> Lee
> "You can have my mac when you pry it from my cold dead hands!" *


Lee,
If this is Apple's fault I will appologize whole heartedly to the TiVo development team for my ranting.
They could also say Apple wasn't interested in helping us out. I know there are probably all kinds of NDA's involved but there are ways to let the truth be known.


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## themacjedi

I'm going to wait for Apple at next weeks MacWorld to announce their own DVR or give full support to TiVo before becoming completely pissed.

I paid for HMO a while before it was free, I can live with that.
I found out that HMO can't play my AAC files, I can't live with that.

I would honestly rather wait than to have to deal with viruses and spyware just to be the first to have T2G. But as a Mac user I have become accustomed to waiting, unless of course it's from Apple.

I'm sure only a few people really know whos fault it is that we have to wait, it could be Apple for not giving support to TiVo or it could be TiVo for putting us on the back burner. We will never know.


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## porovaara

Hey it could be worse... we are primarily a Mac house @ home (1 pc laptop, 1 lunix for pbx/javahmo and 1 freebsd for firewall/4 macs) so we could only watch TTG on the pc. But oh wait, the sucker that I am, I bought the new, HEAVILY pushed, HUMAX DVDR... cuz you know Tivo kept saying it was the best thing since the original series 1. So not only do we have to wait for mac support but we get to wait until SPRING (and knowing how Tivo is now that means August) before our Tivo is even supported.


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## tonyf3

So, Jan 6th CES Las Vegas today, maybe some news. Like the Mac release schedule for TiVo togo.


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## Danimal4326

looks like getting the files off on a mac will not be a problem. Playing them back will be the issue.

in 7.x the tivo runs a web server, and its pretty trivial to pull the recording off

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215838


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## tonyf3

Thanks for the glimmer of hope Danimal. The Bill Gates news was making me ill.


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## tonyf3

I've seen some other posts on a new Headless Mac beig announced at Macworld next week. Also, one on Apple buying TiVo. One can only dream.


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## jpd

The embedded web server is neat, and it's a promising sign that TiVo has done what it needs to do to enable full cross-platform support. But the video files will still use the Microsoft DRM, won't they? That seems to be the real sticking point.

Does anyone know if TiVo is using a "version 1" DRM license? If so, Macintosh support is really a trivial issue of putting the pieces together, and people who want to do it themselves can probably do so easily. If not, we have to wait for Windows Media Player 10 for Mac OS X.

From the Microsoft web site: 


> Content providers can issue several different versions of DRM licenses; however, Windows Media Player 9 for Mac OS X only supports version 1 licenses. This means that you might be able to play some protected files, but not others.
> 
> We have informed our content partners about this issue so that they can decide whether to offer version 1 licenses to their customers who use Macintosh computers.


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## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by jpd _
> *The embedded web server is neat, and it's a promising sign that TiVo has done what it needs to do to enable full cross-platform support. But the video files will still use the Microsoft DRM, won't they? That seems to be the real sticking point.
> 
> Does anyone know if TiVo is using a "version 1" DRM license? If so, Macintosh support is really a trivial issue of putting the pieces together, and people who want to do it themselves can probably do so easily. If not, we have to wait for Windows Media Player 10 for Mac OS X.
> 
> From the Microsoft web site: *


Great. I think I have to wait for the 7.1 update to get pushed before I can try the embedded web server. Correct? I could use this to pull the files until TiVo Desktop 2.0 for OSX comes out.
Then it's a question of DRM. Does VLC support the DRM license?


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## Unix_Beard

Talking to a beta tester, it sounds like vlc on Windows supports the M$ DRM. And looking at the vlc features page, it appears (if I'm reading it correctly) that vlc on windows supports WMV 1,2, and 3 files whereas the Mac version only supports WMV versions 1 and 2. I presume Tivo is using WMV v3 and the Mac users are screwed. (http://videolan.org/vlc/features.html)

Its funny that M$ was able to get Tivo to use their codec. Here, Apple has pulled off the best implementation of DRM in the history of protected media (iTMS) and yet its not used for Tivo.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Wow. I think Mac users are f*cked. I thought this M$ DRM was a choice of convenience but it appears that Tivo is cozying up with Microsoft bigtime. From Tivo's website:



> "Now that millions of consumers are enjoying the TiVo service in their living rooms, we found that many of them had a desire to take that entertainment experience with them. By rallying other industry leaders around this opportunity, we can bring consumers that extended TiVo experience to a broad range of devices in a quick and powerful way," said Matt Wisk, chief marketing officer, TiVo.
> 
> Microsoft Chairman and Founder Bill Gates announced during his keynote address tonight at the Consumer Electronics Show that the two companies have embarked on a collaborative effort designed to allow consumers to take digital entertainment with them on portable devices.
> 
> Gates demonstrated how television programs stored on a TiVo® box can be transferred to a Windows XP PC for playback on Windows Mobile devices, including Portable Media Centers, and media-capable Pocket PCs and Smart phones.
> 
> "TiVoToGo is going to be an important element in our efforts to help consumers get content from the TiVo box to a growing number of Windows Mobile-based devices that make portable digital entertainment a reality," said Todd Warren, Corporate VP of Microsoft's Devices, Services and Experience Division.
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=233


So, its a partnership so they can get Tivo on M$ based handhelds? I guess Apple missed the boat. Now I'm seriously considering getting rid of my one and only Tivo. Apple and Microsoft are at war over the media market. I can't see M$ playing nice with Apple on this one.


----------



## MassNerder

Here ya go mac guys. Fire up virtual PC, download the shows you want via it. Use TMPEnc to covert it to standard MPEG, put file on mac, use as you want. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's just that simple.

It's a bit of a pain, but it works. And it'll hold you over until Tivo makes a mac client.

There is a thread on converting the .tivo file to MPEg with the Tsunami Encoder, but I dont have the link handy. do a search.


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by MassNerder _
> *Here ya go mac guys. Fire up virtual PC, download the shows you want via it. Use TMPEnc to covert it to standard MPEG, put file on mac, use as you want. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's just that simple.
> 
> It's a bit of a pain, but it works. And it'll hold you over until Tivo makes a mac client.
> 
> There is a thread on converting the .tivo file to MPEg with the Tsunami Encoder, but I dont have the link handy. do a search. *


Thanks,
I'll give that a try.


----------



## Morris Herman

> _Originally posted by MassNerder _
> *Here ya go mac guys. Fire up virtual PC, download the shows you want via it. Use TMPEnc to covert it to standard MPEG, put file on mac, use as you want. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's just that simple.
> 
> It's a bit of a pain, but it works. And it'll hold you over until Tivo makes a mac client.
> 
> There is a thread on converting the .tivo file to MPEg with the Tsunami Encoder, but I dont have the link handy. do a search. *


Have you tried this on a Mac or you are just pointing to a possible solution?


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

> _Originally posted by jpd _
> *But the video files will still use the Microsoft DRM, won't they? That seems to be the real sticking point.*


Others have posted that the new TiVo Desktop includes a DirectShow filter. It's probably that filter that's handling the DRM. In other words, although MS technology is involved (DirectShow) it's not actually MS DRM, it's TiVo DRM, assuming I'm interpreting the situation correctly. I'd also expect that if it were MS DRM, it'd be packaged as .wmv or one of the other MS formats, not a custom .tivo format.

That would mean that TiVo could implement this in QuickTime just as well (specifically writing a movie import component to parse the .tivo file format and a data handler to handle decryption.)

Remember, I'm speculating here -- haven't seen the code.


----------



## tonyf3

I can't imagine Apple missing the boat on this despite Steve's views on Video hand helds. I'll reserve
the big guns untill after Macworld.


----------



## zingboy

I think the timing of the T2G release and Macworld are suspiciously related (not forgetting about CES). It could easily be a marketing thing, releasing the Windows version first to get the attention of that community, then using the biggest mac conference to get all the Mac users on-board. 

Of course, we've seen this kind of thing dry up at previous Macworlds, but this looks to be a big one. 

My uninformed prediction is a Macworld where we see better Tivo/Mac integration released, probably having something to do with iLife 05 or Keynote(who knows, it could replace iDVD).


----------



## roaster

Has anyone tried Elgato's Eyetv 200. Just stumbled on it but was waiting for the other shoe to drop on T2GO. I'd be curious to find out if it could be networked wireless. Not inexpensive but may offer a workaround.


----------



## tonyf3

Macworld is this coming Monday Jan 10.


----------



## MassNerder

> _Originally posted by Morris Herman _
> *Have you tried this on a Mac or you are just pointing to a possible solution? *


No. My powerbook is in the shop right now. however, I couldnt possibly see why it wouldnt work. Give it a shot....whats the worst that could happen 

I'll give it a shot next week once I have to give this crappy loaner WinXP laptop back.


----------



## tonyf3

Hey did anyone read David Pogue's article in the NY Times today. Nice review, except he has forgotten
his Mac roots. His follow up piece should be on how TiVo hasn't been very forth coming about it's Mac development. Or lack of it so far. To be fair he has to appear neutral and write for the masses, but
comon' Dave. Takem' to task a little would ya. I listened to the web conference from the CEO.
Not much worth listening to.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Has anyone heard the word Tivo muttered at any Macworld keynote? I never have and don't expect to at this Macworld. the only thing that would cause Jobs to mutter Tivo is announcing the acquisition. Tivo has no impact on Mac sales. Tivo has no impact on iPod sales. Tivo is inconsequential to Apple.


----------



## Unix_Beard

> _Originally posted by MassNerder _
> *No. My powerbook is in the shop right now. however, I couldnt possibly see why it wouldnt work. Give it a shot....whats the worst that could happen
> 
> I'll give it a shot next week once I have to give this crappy loaner WinXP laptop back.  *


If the .tivo file is DRMed, why would a 3rd party package let you circumvent the DRM so easily?


----------



## blips

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *Has anyone heard the word Tivo muttered at any Macworld keynote? I never have and don't expect to at this Macworld. the only thing that would cause Jobs to mutter Tivo is announcing the acquisition. Tivo has no impact on Mac sales. Tivo has no impact on iPod sales. Tivo is inconsequential to Apple. *


That is the exact thought I had reading this thread and I don't think he will be announcing any acquisition.


----------



## tonyf3

Oh yeah, that's why they made the ipod Photo with a color screen. You don't think someone said to themselves at Apple. Music, Photos....uh Video. Come on! No Apple's not going to mutter TiVo at Macworld. However they can't afford to ignore what MS and TiVo announced today. Can you say SONY, as in they used to own the personal music player market with Walkman. I bet they have something comparable in the works. Not to would be foolish.


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *I find it hard to believe that Jobs would say anything about Tivo at Macworld. Tivo is inconsequential to Apple - the only news worthy of Macworld would be Apple acquiring Tivo.
> 
> Now, I wouldn't bet against Apple assuming the market completely with a new gadget. *


Hey,
What happened you've changed your tune on this. Inconsequential sounds like an Apple employee
with knowledge of something better but can't talk about it for fear of being fired.


----------



## idrivecode3

> _Originally posted by cwoody222 _
> *Apple stores almost selling TiVo's? I've never heard that rumor ANYWHERE. I don't believe it.
> 
> Apple w/ their own DVR? I've heard that rumor a million times and I still don't believe it. I'd LOVE it if it were true, but I just don't see it happening.
> 
> I sure hope I'm wrong, though. (and maybe, just maybe, the sub-$500 headless iMac is the answer) *


Former Apple retailer myself...we had them then were told not to sell them. "Headless iMac" maybe this is what we are waiting for!!!!


----------



## SJN

I downloaded a 30 minute program using the web access described in other threads in this forum (https://tivoipaddress), copied it into Virtual PC, then tried to open the file using TMPGEnc.exe. It told me I didn't have an MPEG-2 codec installed (which makes sense). All of the codecs recommended by TiVo are $15 apiece, with no trial period. I'm not wild about buying a codec until I know if it will work; anyone know of one that has a free trial that I can try?


----------



## Eoghann

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *Agreed. Absolutely unacceptable. Mac users make up a sizable number of TiVo users, and for them to forsake us like this is simply abhorrent. *


I do not think that word means what you think it means.


----------



## Morris Herman

> _Originally posted by MassNerder _
> *No. My powerbook is in the shop right now. however, I couldnt possibly see why it wouldnt work. Give it a shot....whats the worst that could happen
> 
> I'll give it a shot next week once I have to give this crappy loaner WinXP laptop back.  *


Well I gave a shot but missed the barn door. I started VPC and downloaded Desktop 2.0, installed it and entered the Media Access Key with the playback passwords.

When I start Tivo Desktop, it is running but it says that there are no TiVo recordings on Administrator's Now Playing list.

Remember, that the Mac that is running VPC has access to the Tivo. I tried to to STOP the Mac Desktop so that it would not interfere but no joy. I turn the Mac Tivo Desktop on and I see on the Tivo my pictures and music from iTunes and iPhoto.

I downloaded Windows Media 10 also successfully.

Any ideas?


----------



## SJN

> _Originally posted by Morris Herman _
> *Well I gave a shot but missed the barn door. I started VPC and downloaded Desktop 2.0, installed it and entered the Media Access Key with the playback passwords.
> 
> When I start Tivo Desktop, it is running but it says that there are no TiVo recordings on Administrator's Now Playing list.
> 
> Remember, that the Mac that is running VPC has access to the Tivo. I tried to to STOP the Mac Desktop so that it would not interfere but no joy. I turn the Mac Tivo Desktop on and I see on the Tivo my pictures and music from iTunes and iPhoto.
> 
> I downloaded Windows Media 10 also successfully.
> 
> Any ideas? *


 As near as I can tell, the Administrator's Now Playing list is a list of programs that you've already downloaded. There's a big button at the top that says "Pick Recordings to Transfer." If you have your network set up right, this should connect to your TiVo.


----------



## MassNerder

> _Originally posted by Morris Herman _
> *Well I gave a shot but missed the barn door. I started VPC and downloaded Desktop 2.0, installed it and entered the Media Access Key with the playback passwords.
> 
> When I start Tivo Desktop, it is running but it says that there are no TiVo recordings on Administrator's Now Playing list.
> 
> Remember, that the Mac that is running VPC has access to the Tivo. I tried to to STOP the Mac Desktop so that it would not interfere but no joy. I turn the Mac Tivo Desktop on and I see on the Tivo my pictures and music from iTunes and iPhoto.
> 
> I downloaded Windows Media 10 also successfully.
> 
> Any ideas? *


Does it see the tivo? Or does it act like it doesnt see it at all. I'm wondering if the VPC doesnt act as a DHCP server and assign a 'intranet' ip address to the virtual PC. Because the tivo app just looks on the local subnet for a tivo..... so it might not be seeing the tivo because it thinks it is on a different subnet......compare IP addresses in Windows versus your mac.

You should look into how virtual PC is configured and if you can make the networking work in 'network address translation mode' or some such thing. I'm now dying to play with this and see if i can get it to work.

Check this out and see if it helps: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/825372



> If the .tivo file is DRMed, why would a 3rd party package let you circumvent the DRM so easily?


Because that's the use of the software. It's function is to covert formats The fact that the media is DRMed doesnt really enter into it. To be legal this software is really just coverting formats. As long as it will ask you what your password for the DRMed material, the maker of the software is in the clear legally (i'd think), since it's reasonable to conclude that knowing the password to a drmed file is ownership. I mean, that not might always be the case, but it wouldnt surprise me that a company could legally make that asumption.



> That would mean that TiVo could implement this in QuickTime just as well (specifically writing a movie import component to parse the .tivo file format and a data handler to handle decryption.)


Sure, why not? I'd be willing to guess the encoding is taking place on the computer, so instead of the stream file on the tivo, just crank it out into Quicktime. There really wouldnt even be a need for Windows Media or the format on the mac. The file format on the tivo is not the same format you get on your OC.

I cant find the quote, but someone also asked about a codec for the encoder....VLC should be able to play Mpeg2 files, that would work. Or you could download a trial version of some software (the software will be unuseable after the trial period, but the codec will still work). Powerdvd used to come with a free trial and would do mpeg2...cant recall if they make a mac version....

-----------
*Actual accuracy of statements may vary.


----------



## Morris Herman

> _Originally posted by SJN _
> *As near as I can tell, the Administrator's Now Playing list is a list of programs that you've already downloaded. There's a big button at the top that says "Pick Recordings to Transfer." If you have your network set up right, this should connect to your TiVo. *


Thanks for your suggestion. When I select "Pick recordings to Transfer", it says there are no TiVo DVRs available on the network.

Now the big question is how do I set up the network?

Obviously, I have connectivity through my wireless network in order to be able to download TiVo Desktop and Windows media 10 successfully with the Windows XP running on VPC on my Mac.

Where is the missing link?


----------



## Unix_Beard

Morris Herman - I'm in the same boat. I have a Powerbook. I installed VirtualPC with XP. I downloaded Tivo Desktop and it gives me the same message as you - it can't see the Tivo. I dug a little deeper into XP and found that Virtual PC gives the Windows side an IP address in the form of 192.168.131.xxx. Since it assigns this particular range of addresses to the VPC side, it can't see anything on my internal network. It sees the Internet just fine. 

Apparently, VPC has two types of network setups - "Virtual Switch" and "Shared Network" or something. The "Shared is set by default, and thats what gives the 192.168.131.xxx number to the VPC side. The "Virtual Switch" is what you want, I believe. I used that it the XP side got a different IP than the Mac side and on the network. Now, it has the proper IP but the network doesn't work at all - inside or outside.

At this point, I said screw it.  Windows is bad enough but at crawling speed its infuriating...

I did copy some shows down via the web interface on a Mac and copied them into VPC/Tivo Desktop where I was able to view them. I'm really only interested in burning DVDs so I guess I'll just wait for those who are smarter than me figure this out.


----------



## Morris Herman

> _Originally posted by MassNerder _
> *Does it see the tivo? Or does it act like it doesnt see it at all. I'm wondering if the VPC doesnt act as a DHCP server and assign a 'intranet' ip address to the virtual PC. Because the tivo app just looks on the local subnet for a tivo..... so it might not be seeing the tivo because it thinks it is on a different subnet......compare IP addresses in Windows versus your mac.
> 
> You should look into how virtual PC is configured and if you can make the networking work in 'network address translation mode' or some such thing. I'm now dying to play with this and see if i can get it to work.
> 
> Check this out and see if it helps: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/825372*


I had Network Sharing selected in the VPC Network Settings but I changed it to Virtual Switch and in spite of the warning that it will not work with a wireless network, IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!

I see the Now Playing list from my Tivo. I started the transfer of one of my recordings and it says that it will take about 1 Hr 10 min.

Transfer now in progress!!!!

TiVo To Go is going!!!!!!


----------



## Morris Herman

The PLAY button is active, along with the Stop Transfer button so while the transfer is occurring I clicked it. It asked me for my playback password but then said that Windows Media 10 cannot play the file because it was missing the MPEG-2 video decoder. 

I clicked on Web Help and was routed to a web site called wmplugnns.com where the codec was available for $20. Before I buy this, is this what I need before I can play the tivo file?


----------



## Morris Herman

I proceeded to select the InterVideo codec which I bought for $14.95. I installed it but when I play a recording I downloaded from the Tivo, all I get is sound no video. 

Windows media 10 thinks it is an audio file with the corrrect title and date of of the recording. 

What now? Is the problem the VPC running on the Mac?


----------



## SavMan

> _Originally posted by Eoghann _
> re: abhorrent-
> *I do not think that word means what you think it means. *


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=abhorrent

How so, sir? 

(I do appreciate the Princess Bride reference, however) :up:


----------



## Morris Herman

OK I won't give up but I installed Desktop 2.0 on my Windows XP laptop from work. It is also networked and it picked up my Now Playing list from my Tivo. I then installed the same codec from InterVideo on that laptop, transfered a recording from the Tivo but when I went to play it with Windows media 8, the WiMP (sic) froze on me and I could not do anything to restart the machine. 

The joys of Windoze!!


----------



## Morris Herman

I finally got the machine to restart but it will not play the Tivo recording with the following message:

"You are not authorized to play this recording. It was transfered using a different media access key than the one in your Windows account.

For help see the application you used to transfer the TiVo recording from your Tivo DVR."

I even went back in the Tivo Desktop and set the Media Access Key and playback password same as before but no success.

Tried converting the Tivo file with TMPGEnc but encountered the same authorization problem.

I almost give up!


----------



## tonyf3

Morris,
How about VLC on the Mac side after download. Haven't tried it. Still waiting for 7.1


----------



## MassNerder

> _Originally posted by Morris Herman _
> *I proceeded to select the InterVideo codec which I bought for $14.95. I installed it but when I play a recording I downloaded from the Tivo, all I get is sound no video.
> 
> Windows media 10 thinks it is an audio file with the corrrect title and date of of the recording.
> 
> What now? Is the problem the VPC running on the Mac? *


You shouldnt have to *BUY* the codec. there should be free trials (powerdvd). Download the good old "VLC Viewer" and use that to play it. I havent see anything that program cant play.


----------



## Unix_Beard

> _Originally posted by Morris Herman _
> *OK I won't give up but I installed Desktop 2.0 on my Windows XP laptop from work. It is also networked and it picked up my Now Playing list from my Tivo. I then installed the same codec from InterVideo on that laptop, transfered a recording from the Tivo but when I went to play it with Windows media 8, the WiMP (sic) froze on me and I could not do anything to restart the machine.
> 
> The joys of Windoze!! *


 Now you know why I gave up. I'll just keep hoping for the iMovie/iDVD friendly version.


----------



## Unix_Beard

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *Morris,
> How about VLC on the Mac side after download. Haven't tried it. Still waiting for 7.1 *


vlc on MacOS X will NOT play the .tivo file. It has garbled sound and a solid green screen for me. vlc on Windows is able to snag that playback filter that T2G relies on. No such beast on the Mac.

As far as I can tell, there is no conceivable way to view these on a Mac without Virtual PC. Even then, its a challenge.


----------



## Bierboy

I just tried opening a TiVo transferred file with VLC (on my PC) and it's a blank screen. Am I doing something wrong? I just downloaded VLC, installed it and launched it. I navigated to a TiVo file, then opened it, but, while the little timer indicates something is playing, there's no video or audio.


----------



## 2324070933

I am having the same trouble, all i get is a grey screen and no audio, but something is playing...


----------



## Unix_Beard

If vlc didn't ask for the password, its not decrypted. Do you have the newest version of vlc? I don't know if it works or not. That product TMPGEnc did ask for the password and opened the file for me so I assumed vlc would work the same way on Windows.


----------



## 2324070933

Yes, I downloaded v.8.1 this morning for the XP. It did not ask for a password. I thought I saw that VLC was one of the preferred options on the tivo site to watch the .tivo files. Is this correct?


----------



## Unix_Beard

> _Originally posted by 2324070933 _
> *Yes, I downloaded v.8.1 this morning for the XP. It did not ask for a password. I thought I saw that VLC was one of the preferred options on the tivo site to watch the .tivo files. Is this correct? *


FWIW, I believe it said Windows 2000 users should use vlc.


----------



## 2324070933

Foiled!!!

I just tried to use the TMPgenc and when i select the .tivo file and hit start i get a prompt that say Can't load "P3Package.dll" Can you help with that?


----------



## Morris Herman

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *vlc on MacOS X will NOT play the .tivo file. It has garbled sound and a solid green screen for me. vlc on Windows is able to snag that playback filter that T2G relies on. No such beast on the Mac.
> 
> As far as I can tell, there is no conceivable way to view these on a Mac without Virtual PC. Even then, its a challenge. *


I just downloaded the Windows VLC on the Mac running VPC but when I tried to play the Tivo file, all I got was a black screen. VLC does not seem to be the solution.


----------



## Bierboy

> _Originally posted by Morris Herman _
> *I just downloaded the Windows VLC on the Mac running VPC but when I tried to play the Tivo file, all I got was a black screen. VLC does not seem to be the solution. *


 Amen....I have the latest version of VLC for the PC (haven't tried for Mac), and, as I posted above, it does not work.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

> _Originally posted by Morris Herman _
> *OK I won't give up but I installed Desktop 2.0 on my Windows XP laptop from work. It is also networked and it picked up my Now Playing list from my Tivo. I then installed the same codec from InterVideo on that laptop, transfered a recording from the Tivo but when I went to play it with Windows media 8, the WiMP (sic) froze on me and I could not do anything to restart the machine.
> 
> The joys of Windoze!! *


guess mac users never have to read instructions  
for windows XP - only Windows Media Player 10 will work. Media player 9 seems to work with .tivo files on Windows 2000. Windows media player 8 will not owrk with .tivo files at all.

there is DRM here people, not just an mpeg video. You need to have the right version to deal with the DRM adn filters it entails.


----------



## Eoghann

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=abhorrent
> 
> How so, sir?
> 
> (I do appreciate the Princess Bride reference, however) :up: *


Well in the context you're using it, it can't mean "strongly opposed" agreed?

That leaves disgusting, loathsome or repellent. Not of which make any logical sense when applied to a simple business decision. Picking your nose is disgusting. Killing people is loathesome, farting is repellent. Deciding to offer software to PC users prior to offering it to Mac users... thats just numbers.

You seem to be trying to imply that Tivo had some emotional motive in their decision making. That their decision is somehow a snub to Apple or to their users. In fact not just a snub but an outright backstab. Neither makes any logical sense.

Now if you'd used the words disapointing, unfortunate, regretable, annoying, irritating, any of those I could have agreed with. But abhorrent? No its either a deliberate missuse of the word or a failure to understand its meaning.


----------



## Stuckeyboss

Well, I am going to have to turn to some of you OS X gurus out there.

Using the web interface recently discovered on some of the other threads around here, I was able to pull the .tivo files off of the TiVo.

Using MPlayer for OSX - http://mplayerosx.sourceforge.net/

I can get the file to play in a really messed up fashion.

Then a coworker turned me onto TiVo-MPlayer - which is supposed to play the TiVo stream.

http://tivo-mplayer.sourceforge.net/

I am still in the process of grabbing fink, and some of the other tools described in OS X install procedure. I thought it might be beneficial to get others experimenting as well.

So - if anyone has any luck - please post to the thread.


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by Stuckeyboss _
> *Well, I am going to have to turn to some of you OS X gurus out there.
> 
> Using the web interface recently discovered on some of the other threads around here, I was able to pull the .tivo files off of the TiVo.
> 
> Using MPlayer for OSX - http://mplayerosx.sourceforge.net/
> 
> I can get the file to play in a really messed up fashion.
> 
> Then a coworker turned me onto TiVo-MPlayer - which is supposed to play the TiVo stream.
> 
> http://tivo-mplayer.sourceforge.net/
> 
> I am still in the process of grabbing fink, and some of the other tools described in OS X install procedure. I thought it might be beneficial to get others experimenting as well.
> 
> So - if anyone has any luck - please post to the thread. *


Thanks Stuckey,
This sounds promising. Fink and the other tools discribed in the OSX install for which app?
I'm still waiting for the 7.x download. Anyone know rough percentage of users who have received the update. Mine still says 4.0.1b.


----------



## SavMan

*Eoghann*
 
From the link I posted:


> abhorrent
> 
> adj : offensive to the mind; "an abhorrent deed"; "the obscene massacre at Wounded Knee"; "morally repugnant customs"; "repulsive behavior"; "the most repulsive character in recent novels" [syn: detestable, obscene, repugnant, repulsive.


I find it "offensive to the mind" and "repulsive" that TiVo would snub a large and vocal portion of their user base. It does not require emotion on the behalf of TiVo to forsake 15% of the user base -- just the arrogant assumption that we don't matter. I abhor such thinking, it's just bad business. You assert that my claim that I have been "back-stabbed" is laughable, yet I have, for two-and-a-half years, supported TiVo through paying my service fees, buying a second box, referring 3 friends, and being a general apologist and evangelist to a brand I thought really "got it." For a company I have believed in to indicate that every TiVo user would have TTG free, then release it well after schedule without support for a large contingent of their customers makes me upset. It repulses me. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of their customer base. IT IS ABHORRENT to me.

You may claim that I'm being overly dramatic -- and that's a fair cop, guv. But you are either plain ignorant or being deliberately obtuse if you are seriously trying to argue that I used the adjective "abhorrent" improperly.

*<On Topic>* Now let us return to the matter at hand: What hopes do we have of getting MSFT's proprietary DirectShow filter ported to the Mac? Since all reports point to this being the ONLY reason why we don't have TiVoToGo, and TiVo evidently couldn't get Microsoft to play fair, are we SOL here? Are we going to have to hope for some hacker to break the DMCA for us so we can simply share in the same services our Windows brethren enjoy?

I know TiVoBill is quite restricted in his abilities to give us information, but a simple "there _will_ be a version for Macintosh within x months, the programmers/lawyers/officers/Microsoft stooges assure us," would pacify most of us. I think the majority of we Mac users are most put off by the completely noncommittal nature of TiVo's response. TiVo is well known on these boards to fleece consumers in order to squeeze more money out of them (i.e. HUMAX boxes, HMO, etc.) so they've lost a lot of credibility that would allow us to take for granted that "working hard" doesn't mean "never gonna happen, but we don't want a mass exodus of customers, so we'll stretch the truth."

I'm not entirely sure that I trust TiVo to support my choice of platform, so it'd be nice to have some sort of disclosure. I paid a premium for TiVo over any of the other DVRs, but it's not worth it if I'm locked out of all the new features that make it cost more. I hope this is just a PR gaffe, and not a sign that TiVo has turned their back on Mac users for good.


----------



## Stuckeyboss

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *Thanks Stuckey,
> This sounds promising. Fink and the other tools discribed in the OSX install for which app?
> I'm still waiting for the 7.x download. Anyone know rough percentage of users who have received the update. Mine still says 4.0.1b. *


For Tivo-MPlayer - sorry about that, I should have been more clear.


----------



## Diamondh

Save yourself the headaches! Watch for "IHOME" at MACWORLD, sorry Tivo but you're about to be left in the dust!! Way to go Apple!!!
see website engadget.com/entry/1234000110026534/


----------



## Unix_Beard

Looks to be a fraud to me. "Centre?" And the box it comes in looks too amateurish to be an Apple job.


----------



## Unix_Beard

I tried the Tivo-mplayer. You need X11 and there a MacOS X binary on that referenced page. Its command line. The video opens nicely and the bottom half is scrambled and there is no sound. Here is the output:

[Basement:/sw] admin% mplayer ~/Desktop/Austin\ City\ Limits.TiVo
MPlayer 1.0pre6-3.3 (C) 2000-2004 MPlayer Team
AltiVec found
CPU: PowerPC
Creating config file: /Users/admin/.mplayer/config

Playing /Users/admin/Desktop/Austin City Limits.TiVo.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
(...and this line continues until you stop the process...)

Oh well.


----------



## SavMan

*Diamondh:*

Dude, seriously. Wise up. That's an obvious fake. The easiest way to tell that is that Apple holds no patent for such a name. Other ways to tell it's fakery: incorrect typeface selection, poor typography, amateurish packaging doesn't conform with Apple products, British spelling of "Media Center," optical drive slot way too large, inelegant 300-pt "iHome" screened on top of product, lack of any appropriate ports for a media center device, et cetera. You can read an in-depth debunking of the hoax... in that very link you posted! Scroll down and read the comments!


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by Diamondh _
> *Save yourself the headaches! Watch for "IHOME" at MACWORLD, sorry Tivo but you're about to be left in the dust!! Way to go Apple!!!
> see website engadget.com/entry/1234000110026534/ *


I hope it's not a fake. iHome software was slated for the Tiger release 10.4
I read something about TiVo now licenseing a lite version of it's OS to the Cable companies set top boxes to get exposure. Then upgradable to full for the $12.95. So, if Apple will let HP make ipod clones, and if the above is true then why wouldn't TiVo let Apple run the same on an Apple branded DVR that integrates with it's ihome software. Let Apple worry about satisfying our needs. TiVo delays
the Mac release so they won't steal any thunder from Jobs on Monday. Or we get our solution from Apple. That would make sense since they've said absolutley NOTHING! on WHY!, and WHEN!. They probably figured they could stay mum for a couple of days. Then when Steve does his show everyone will forget all about it.


----------



## SavMan

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *I hope it's not a fake. iHome software was slated for the Tiger release 10.4
> I read something about TiVo now licenseing a lite version of it's OS to the Cable companies set top boxes to get exposure. Then upgradable to full for the $12.95. So, if Apple will let HP make ipod clones, and if the above is true then why wouldn't TiVo let Apple run the same on an Apple branded DVR that integrates with it's ihome software. Let Apple worry about satisfying our needs. TiVo delays
> the Mac release so they won't steal any thunder from Jobs on Monday. Or we get our solution from Apple. That would make sense since they've said absolutley NOTHING! on WHY!, and WHEN!. They probably figured they could stay mum for a couple of days. Then when Steve does his show everyone will forget all about it. *


So many things wrong here, where to start...

"iHome Software" -- No such software has been announced or even hinted at by Apple, especially for Tiger. Also, that name is a registered trademark of iHome, LLC of Snoqualmie, WA.

"TiVo lite" -- I don't know where you got this information, the only TiVo lite I know of is with the DVD Recorder boxes made by Sony, Pioneer, and Humax. Seeing as every major cable or satellite company already has their own PVRs, I see no reason for them to switch all their existing users to a version of TiVo, at the risk of losing their own customers.

"HP iPods" -- These are not clones. They are manufactured by Apple and sold to HP. Apple merely laser-etches the HP logo on the back. Otherwise, straight-up Apple iPods.

"iHome box" -- an obvious fake! Maybe the headless iMac coming out is, in fact, a functional DVR. However, these are not photos of an Apple project, just a large hoax.


----------



## tonyf3

I also somehow got the impression that TiVo togo would lessen the hacking for video extraction.
If a Mac version isn't forthcoming then I bet it will continue with renewed zeal.


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *So many things wrong here, where to start...
> 
> "iHome Software" -- No such software has been announced or even hinted at by Apple, especially for Tiger. Also, that name is a registered trademark of iHome, LLC of Snoqualmie, WA.
> 
> "TiVo lite" -- I don't know where you got this information, the only TiVo lite I know of is with the DVD Recorder boxes made by Sony, Pioneer, and Humax. Seeing as every major cable or satellite company already has their own PVRs, I see no reason for them to switch all their existing users to a version of TiVo, at the risk of losing their own customers.
> 
> "HP iPods" -- These are not clones. They are manufactured by Apple and sold to HP. Apple merely laser-etches the HP logo on the back. Otherwise, straight-up Apple iPods.
> 
> "iHome box" -- an obvious fake! Maybe the headless iMac coming out is, in fact, a functional DVR. However, these are not photos of an Apple project, just a large hoax. *


Yeah,
Looks like a fake.
Yeah, digital home or "whatever" was supposed to be in 10.3 but wasn't ready.
Yeah, HP doesn't make clones. Sorry "throw back to the dark times" 
and Yeah most cable company interfaces Suck, so why re-invent the wheel. Be smart co-opt what works. Never heard anyone complain about an upgrade that wasn't better than what they were using before. Just the software not the box.

There,...happy now.


----------



## SavMan

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *
> Yeah, digital home or "whatever" was supposed to be in 10.3 but wasn't ready.
> Yeah, HP doesn't make clones. Sorry "throw back to the dark times"
> and Yeah most cable company interfaces Suck, so why re-invent the wheel. Be smart co-opt what works. Never heard anyone complain about an upgrade that wasn't better than what they were using before. Just the software not the box.
> 
> There,...happy now. *


I'm going to try to be less confrontational about this, sorry if I came off like a jackass:

"iHome/digital home/whatever" -- I think what you are referring to is the ability to sync your entire Home folder onto the HD in an iPod. The idea was, when you came home from work, etc, you'd plug in your iPod. It would sync everything in your Home folder, and you'd be able to use any mac as if it were your home computer. Also functions as a great backup. This is a great, GREAT idea, and if they ever follow through it will be a boon to sales. However, it has nothing to do with TiVo or DVRs. I could see the confusion, though.

"HP" -- The prototype they unveiled when they announced the partnership was blue, but it was so ugly, they decided against it. Cut costs, too. It's funny, the TiVo iPod (from TiVo Rewards) is basically the same thing as an HP iPod, but with a TiVo logo instead.

"Cable Companies" -- I agree that the existing PVRs suck, I cut my teeth on the Time Warner DVR from Scientific Atlanta (damned thing actually *crashed* once a day) but realize that there is no advantage for a cable company to pay TiVo to use their software. They've already "reinvented the wheel," the cable box is built and the software several versions revised. If they upgraded to a standalone, the cable company is out on the $10 a month you were paying them before. Meanwhile, TiVo has no desire to lose their only stream of revenue (subscriptions) by licensing their OS to cable companies. Finally, TiVos will eventually have CableCards, which will allow them to work on any digital cable system, completely replacing the Motorola or Scientific Atlanta box your cable company charges you $5 a month for (on top of the actual service. Check your bill sometime, they charge for rental of the box AND the remotes, at least in Minneapolis). This means the day of reckoning for inferior PVRs is coming... makes licensing deals seem pointless, really.


----------



## tonyf3

Points taken, thanks for focusing my post.
The TiVo eventually having CableCards sounds interesting.


----------



## SJN

I'm a dedicated Mac user, eagerly awaiting Mac support for TiVo to go. Having said that, I think it's premature to be getting too worked up about the current lack of such support. Although TiVo to go's been hinted at, and even promised, for the better part of a year, it was just formally announced this week. Most TiVo users don't even have the 7.1 upgrade yet, which makes a desktop client irrelevant. Let's at least wait until after next week's MacWorld, and until most, if not all, subscribers have the 7.1 upgrade before we start sharpening our pitchforks and lighting torches. Given Bill Gate's demonstrated enthusiasm for T2Go at CES, I'm sure there will be pressure at MacWorld for Apple to ante up.


----------



## SavMan

> _Originally posted by SJN _
> *I'm a dedicated Mac user, eagerly awaiting Mac support for TiVo to go. Having said that, I think it's premature to be getting too worked up about the current lack of such support. Although TiVo to go's been hinted at, and even promised, for the better part of a year, it was just formally announced this week. Most TiVo users don't even have the 7.1 upgrade yet, which makes a desktop client irrelevant. Let's at least wait until after next week's MacWorld, and until most, if not all, subscribers have the 7.1 upgrade before we start sharpening our pitchforks and lighting torches. Given Bill Gate's demonstrated enthusiasm for T2Go at CES, I'm sure there will be pressure at MacWorld for Apple to ante up. *


Problem is, Apple has *nothing* to do with the equation.

<This is all based on educated guesswork aggregated from dozens of people in this community>

All signs point to the problem being DirectShow. The file itself is nothing but a MPEG-2, so if it were raw, Quicktime or VLC for Mac would have no problem reading it. However, it is shrouded with this DirectShow, a proprietary *Microsoft* DRM scheme. Bill Gates has good reason to be enthusiastic, he has just managed to lock out all Mac users from using TivoToGo.

Knowing now that TiVo has committed itself to dealing with effing Microsoft to create DRM has left me with little-to-no hope of EVER getting TivoToGo, especially since TiVo has given no sign that we will ever get it (Sorry, "working hard" doesn't mean anything). Gates has stopped all development on Internet Explorer and Media Player for Mac, bought up the only viable PC emulator, and got Bungie to sell out and port a Mac-first game to Xbox and hold out on our version for two years. The only support from Microsoft we get is for Office, and that's because Mac users are quite a bit more profitable than Windows users for that program (per capita). What's to stop Gates from holding out for a year or two so he can tout that only Windows machines have the capabilities to interface with TiVoToGo? It's the guy's _modus operandi_.

Besides, if a Mac client was ready for distribution on Monday (MacWorld), that would mean it's already been beta-tested and has been ready for gold master since before CES. Even if we go to when most users get 7.1 (by all indications, 1-2 months from now) TiVo would still have a date for when the mac client would come out. They told us when Sonic's software is coming out, but they can't tell us when their own damned software is coming out! Not good. All indicators point to a complete lack of any development here.

So really, with the knowledge that TTG uses Microsoft's proprietary and Windows-exclusive DRM scheme, and devoid of any assurances from TiVo that a client is in store for us, what hope do we have of ever seeing TiVoToGo? I hope that I'm wrong, but TiVo has been quite noncommittal about this issue, and that doesn't bode well.


----------



## tonyf3

Damn Microsoft, (insert Charton Heston tirade from Planet of the Apes here)
Woz, feel like writing some code?


----------



## tonyf3

Nice article on As the Apple Turns site regarding this subject.
http://www.appleturns.com/scene/?id=5119


----------



## tonyf3

Apple insider article on Apple Home Appliance. Older article but timeline leads up to now. 
Macworld Starts tomorrow.
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=362


----------



## jmemmott

---------------------------------------------------------------------
All signs point to the problem being DirectShow. The file itself is nothing but a MPEG-2, so if it were raw, Quicktime or VLC for Mac would have no problem reading it. However, it is shrouded with this DirectShow, a proprietary Microsoft DRM scheme. Bill Gates has good reason to be enthusiastic, he has just managed to lock out all Mac users from using TivoToGo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

As has been pointed out in other threads in this forum, there is absolutely no reason to believe that any type of Microsoft DRM has been used with the .tivo files. Instead, the encryption involved appears to be a Tivo propriatary algorythm that they have used with ALL Series 2 Tivo boxes since they were first released. DirectShow filters are simply the accepted method of adding special processing to video and audio streams for Media Players such as WMP in a modular fashion in the Windows environment. Something similar needs to be provided on the Mac side but the burden is on Tivo to do so because they are the ONLY one that know the decryption algorythm.


----------



## tonyf3

Something similar needs to be provided on the Mac side but the burden is on Tivo to do so because they are the ONLY one that know the decryption algorythm.

A timeline, approximated guess, 1st quarter 2005, 2nd?, 3rd? 4th, Jan 2006?
I'm just amazed that TiVo has nothing to say except were working on it.


----------



## tonyf3

http://www.macworldexpo.com/live/20/

Jobs Keynote Tuesday 9am San Francisco


----------



## stevestarr

Apple makes some great products, BUT what you have to remember is that typically a company will provide for the masses first, and then work out the kinks for the smaller demographic. Apple is a great platform, but unfortunately, no matter who you are or what you say, there are way more PC's in this world then Mac's and thats the bottom line. I was an apple technician for 5 years, and they are great to work on, but the bottom bottom line is that any smart company is going to provide for their higher volume customer first, and all the Mac people also need to understand that maybe it wouldn't be Satanic to have a cheap PC lying around the house. Im sure downloading software would be way more fun!  Im sure im going to piss some people off with this post but thats ok, the Apple Cult will always be an Apple Cult, and I will donate my kidney to science if any Apple Computer ever arises better sales then the PC platform.


----------



## Unix_Beard

stevestarr - Your point has been made countless times in the thread. Everyone is aware of this. The issue is Tivo did release the original Tivo Desktop simultaneously with Windows.


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by stevestarr _
> *Apple makes some great products, BUT what you have to remember is that typically a company will provide for the masses first, and then work out the kinks for the smaller demographic. Apple is a great platform, but unfortunately, no matter who you are or what you say, there are way more PC's in this world then Mac's and thats the bottom line. I was an apple technician for 5 years, and they are great to work on, but the bottom bottom line is that any smart company is going to provide for their higher volume customer first, and all the Mac people also need to understand that maybe it wouldn't be Satanic to have a cheap PC lying around the house. Im sure downloading software would be way more fun!  Im sure im going to piss some people off with this post but thats ok, the Apple Cult will always be an Apple Cult, and I will donate my kidney to science if any Apple Computer ever arises better sales then the PC platform. *


No problem Steve,
I think most Mac users get it. I have a Dell, next to my G4 that's next to my SGI box at work. They each serve their purposes. My preference is Mac as a Graphic Designer of course. I've got 6 at home. I think TiVo's cult is similar to the Mac cult. I guess it more that the Mac was supported right off the bat with TiVo desktop. It was integrated tightly with OSX iphoto & itunes and it worked better than the PC version. Now...they're giving the Mac user a back seat. Mac users get it, they just don't like it. I guess we made the mistake of looking at TiVo they way we looked at Apple.


----------



## cwoody222

I've spent the better part of tonight waiting for WinXP to install on my Mac to no avail. I installed an old version of VirtualPC 5.0.4 I had laying around. I then tried to install WinXP. 5 HOURS later it was on 18% of "copying files to the installation directory". It had been on 18% for 2+ hours. Obviously something was wrong so I stopped the install. I feel better not having Windows on my Mac anyway.

I know my Mac is slow (500MHz iMac) but WinXP has been on it before. I initially had Win98 installed and upgraded to XP. I don't remember how long it took for 98 to install but it wasn't this long. And the upgrade to XP certainly wasn't this slow.

So... since I'm in no mood to try that again... what's the latest prognosis of at least GETTING the .tivo file onto my iMac (via the 'hidden' web browser) without any Windows software? That's all I am trying to do at this point (since TiVo doesn't think Mac users are good enough to deserve actual file viewing).


----------



## Unix_Beard

You can get the .tivo file on the Mac no problem using the web interface and clicking "Download" next to the program. I copied 2 shows so far in hopes I'll be able to do something with them later. At this point, they are just scrambed and of no use.


----------



## cwoody222

Fwew! Thanks! 

Now... if they'd only get to that "priority" list. It's only been 7 days and they've yet to touch it... but I digress...


----------



## SavMan

Not true, I got my update last night. I signed up for the list at 6am CST on the day of the announcement.


----------



## SavMan

Not that it does me any damned good. I've downloaded a show from the web server, but it's useless to me.


----------



## cwoody222

You may have been one of the small number of randomly chosen people to get it.

I signed up around 6-7am EST the day of the annoucement... and nothing yet.


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by cwoody222 _
> *You may have been one of the small number of randomly chosen people to get it.
> 
> I signed up around 6-7am EST the day of the annoucement... and nothing yet. *


I signed up same day, still nothing yet. Forced a connection twice. Hard restart once.
I'm cooling my heels until after Tuesday. If nothing satisfying comes out of Macworld, then I'm
unloading big time.


----------



## Peter000

> _Originally posted by stevestarr _
> *Apple makes some great products, BUT what you have to remember is that typically a company will provide for the masses first, and then work out the kinks for the smaller demographic. Apple is a great platform, but unfortunately, no matter who you are or what you say, there are way more PC's in this world then Mac's and thats the bottom line. I was an apple technician for 5 years, and they are great to work on, but the bottom bottom line is that any smart company is going to provide for their higher volume customer first, and all the Mac people also need to understand that maybe it wouldn't be Satanic to have a cheap PC lying around the house. Im sure downloading software would be way more fun!  Im sure im going to piss some people off with this post but thats ok, the Apple Cult will always be an Apple Cult, and I will donate my kidney to science if any Apple Computer ever arises better sales then the PC platform. *


 Y'know, you bring a whole new light to the great Mac/PC Controversy. I DID NOT KNOW there are more PC's than Macs in the world! AMAZING! And you say a PC is a good tool to have around the house too?? I'm running out to buy a PC TOMORROW! Oh, wait. Yeah, I have 5 of them already.

Geez.


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by Peter000 _
> *Y'know, you bring a whole new light to the great Mac/PC Controversy. I DID NOT KNOW there are more PC's than Macs in the world! AMAZING! And you say a PC is a good tool to have around the house too?? I'm running out to buy a PC TOMORROW! Oh, wait. Yeah, I have 5 of them already.
> 
> Geez. *


Well if they're all windoze, my condolences.
Swap out at least 2 for mac's and find out what all the fuss is about.


----------



## tonyf3

I wonder if they know which subscribers are Mac users. If so,are they not rolling out to us as quickly because they know there's not much we can do with TiVo togo at this point.


----------



## SavMan

> _Originally posted by cwoody222 _
> *You may have been one of the small number of randomly chosen people to get it.
> 
> I signed up around 6-7am EST the day of the annoucement... and nothing yet. *


I doubt it. I have two TiVos, and had I been a _customer_ randomly chosen, both of them should have received the update. So far, the TiVo whose service number I didn't enter is still at the old software.

Sounds like you signed up at nearly the same time I did, so I probably got on there slightly before you. Although, has TiVoBill ever told us if it's first-come/first-serve for this list? Maybe it's random off the list too, for sampling purposes. Either way, someone smarter than me, please figure out how to decode these files!


----------



## cwoody222

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *I doubt it. I have two TiVos, and had I been a customer randomly chosen, both of them should have received the update. *


Nope. They picked random service numbers, not names. It's very possible (likely, even) that if you were randomly selected only 1 of your TiVo's would get it.

I'm pretty sure by last week they hadn't even started the priority list yet and TiVoBill said that they weren't sending the new software to anyone over the weekend.

I really think you just got lucky.


----------



## SJN

> _Originally posted by cwoody222 _
> *Nope. They picked random service numbers, not names. It's very possible (likely, even) that if you were randomly selected only 1 of your TiVo's would get it.*


That's what happened to me; I got the update on my primary TiVo last week, but haven't seen it on the secondary unit. Which is fine with me; it's enough for me to fiddle with it, and see how it works.


----------



## nealm

I feel like I have to jump in here. I am an apple user for decades (going back to the Apple IIe that I took to college in 1987).

I LONG AGO accepted the delays inherent in being way in the minority compared to the universe of computer users. I think it's a little crazy to be so upset at tivo for catering to the 96% before tackling the 4% of mac users. (even granting some of the estimates I've seen thrown out here, at best it's 85/15).

I want TiVo to survive and, to do so, they made the right business decision to throw available resource at the vast majority of their users. If I am ever THAT upset at being snubbed as a mac user, I need to buy one of the numerous sub $500 PCs out there in order to have a lifeline to the windows world.

I am content for the time being to continue to think different and see how mac support shakes out. It doesn't change the fact that TiVo rules.


----------



## griff76

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *Something similar needs to be provided on the Mac side but the burden is on Tivo to do so because they are the ONLY one that know the decryption algorythm.
> 
> A timeline, approximated guess, 1st quarter 2005, 2nd?, 3rd? 4th, Jan 2006?
> I'm just amazed that TiVo has nothing to say except were working on it. *


 I disagree it's totally up to TiVo to get this working. Someone in the MacCommunity can get this working. Since VLC handles the .Tivo files fine on the windows end, and they have nothing to do with TiVo, then someone just has to modify (or make a codec?) to work on the Mac and one of it's programs.

Hopefully now that it's out there, some knowledge Mac developer will pop something out.


----------



## Morris Herman

> _Originally posted by ZeoTiVo _
> *guess mac users never have to read instructions
> for windows XP - only Windows Media Player 10 will work. Media player 9 seems to work with .tivo files on Windows 2000. Windows media player 8 will not owrk with .tivo files at all.
> 
> there is DRM here people, not just an mpeg video. You need to have the right version to deal with the DRM adn filters it entails. *


I thank you for your help although it would have been nicer had it not been delivered with an insult to the Mac users.

Do you PC people realize that you owe much to Apple and the Mac people in terms of pushing the envelope on creativity and innovation? If Microsoft was out there alone without Apple, you would not have many of the new OS features that you enjoy now. But this is not news to you, right?

I have just downloaded WMP 10 but I get the same unauthorized access message after I enter the password. I have decided to transfer the Tivo recording again with the Tivo Desktop and then to play it with WMP 10.

It works!!! ...well sort of.. the picture does skip occasionally and the lips are not in sync (WMP is not QuickTime) with the audio but this is way better than nothing.

Now back to the Mac to replicate the process.


----------



## mdscott

> _Originally posted by Morris Herman _
> *It works!!! ...well sort of.. the picture does skip occasionally and the lips are not in sync (WMP is not QuickTime) with the audio but this is way better than nothing.
> 
> Now back to the Mac to replicate the process. *


Does this mean you have found a WMP 10 that works natively on the Mac or is this under an emulator such as VPC?

mds


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

> _Originally posted by Morris Herman _
> *I thank you for your help although it would have been nicer had it not been delivered with an insult to the Mac users.*


To be fair, Zeo did include a smiley -- you could have ended his statement with "...because Mac software is easy enough to use without them."


----------



## Morris Herman

> _Originally posted by mdscott _
> *Does this mean you have found a WMP 10 that works natively on the Mac or is this under an emulator such as VPC?
> 
> mds *


I am sorry if I did not make it clear. I was able to play Tivo files on my PC laptop and verified that the Intervideo DVD Xpack codec will work with WMP 10.

Trying the same thing on the Mac running VPC, Windows XP and using WMP 10 with the same codec does not work. Only audio is heard; no video.

I have sent a message to Intervideo asking if their codec will work on a Mac running VPC, Windows XP and WMP 10.

I will relay the answer which most likely will be in the negative because that is not a standard software test configuration for PC software. But nothing ventured, nothing gained, right?

P.S. to Zeo: OK, I will take your Mac comment with a smile now.


----------



## Graymalkin

This answers a question in the back of my mind. I guess VPC isn't going to cut it. Ah, well.

BTW, I decided to pay a bit more for Intervideo's DVD Player 6 Platinum, since the XPack install wanted to uninstall the DVD Player 4's codec, and I didn't want to risk losing the ability to play DVDs on the laptop.


----------



## idrivecode3

> _Originally posted by cwoody222 _
> *what's the latest prognosis of at least GETTING the .tivo file onto my iMac (via the 'hidden' web browser) without any Windows software? *


Did I miss the thread about this? How do you get to the "Hidden" browser?


----------



## SJN

> _Originally posted by idrivecode3 _
> *Did I miss the thread about this? How do you get to the "Hidden" browser? *


It's in this thread.


----------



## tonyf3

Thanks Danimal4326

The tivo now runs a web server.
http://<your tivo ip> it will display a nice web page telling you that you've set up your TiVo on the network properly.

Tivo Web interface ( thanks Marc )

https://<tivo ip>/nowplaying/index.html

using user: tivo
pass: <MAK>


----------



## tonyf3

Anyone have any news out of Macworld yet?


----------



## cwoody222

Check out this cool article about extracting HD video from a Motorola cable box and then scheduling recordings via iCal!

http://macteens.com/more.php?id=410_0_1_0_C


----------



## tonyf3

Fyi: Jobs Keynote at Macworld is not being streamed.


----------



## nealm

Mac Mini! That is cool!

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050111/sftu074_1.html


----------



## Unix_Beard

Nothing Tivo related (as has been suggested) but some amazing new products.


----------



## jalex

Actually, I'd say there is some small TiVo-related news out of MacWorld. The newly announced iMovie HD (part of the new iLife '05 package) now supports MPEG-4 video in addition to DV and HDV. We still need to wait on TiVo or Microsoft to do something about the decryption filter for the Mac, but at least we know that iMovie should be able to pass TiVo's MPEG-4 video on to iDVD to burn it to disc.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

> _Originally posted by jalex _
> *...but at least we know that iMovie should be able to pass TiVo's MPEG-4 video on to iDVD to burn it to disc. *


Except that the TiVo's video is MPEG-2.

MPEG-2 decompression has been available for QuickTime in the form of a $19.95 codec download from the Apple Store for quite a while now.


----------



## tonyf3

Ok TiVo, no news from Macworld. It's all you. TIMELINE!


----------



## mattman

I think that many of us *wanted* TiVo news from MacWorld, but I know that I didn't feel it was likely to happen, especially since most of the rumors about the keynote were true. We *may* have to wait for iLife 05's release, or we may be waiting for Tiger, or we may just be waiting for TiVo to finish their own software. I'm willing to wait, but I would like a reasonable time period.

Matt


----------



## stevestarr

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *stevestarr - Your point has been made countless times in the thread. Everyone is aware of this. The issue is Tivo did release the original Tivo Desktop simultaneously with Windows. *


I understand that, what I am trying to communicate is to stop the whining


----------



## jpd

> _Originally posted by mattman _
> *or we may just be waiting for TiVo to finish their own software. I'm willing to wait, but I would like a reasonable time period. *


It just occurred to me that we may not have to wait as long as some of us fear. TiVo runs a version of linux on a PowerPC processor, correct? If so, creating a Mac version of the TiVo software should be pretty easy, they could conceivable just recompile the decryption software that actually runs on the TiVo unit for BSD/Darwin. Of course they would want to give us a nice, proper Mac interface, but that's not too difficult either. I'm beginning to wonder if the PC version came out first because they knew they would need to devote far more resources and man hours to get that accomplished while they could pop out a Mac version quickly with only a small delay.

It might even be worth trying to download the TiVo source code and see if has the decryption libraries and if they can be recompiled on one's own. If only I had the time, and the TiVo update.


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by mattman _
> *I think that many of us *wanted* TiVo news from MacWorld, but I know that I didn't feel it was likely to happen, especially since most of the rumors about the keynote were true. We *may* have to wait for iLife 05's release, or we may be waiting for Tiger, or we may just be waiting for TiVo to finish their own software. I'm willing to wait, but I would like a reasonable time period.
> 
> Matt *


Mattman,
You're right, all we really want to know is how long a wait. That's all.


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by jpd _
> *It just occurred to me that we may not have to wait as long as some of us fear. TiVo runs a version of linux on a PowerPC processor, correct? If so, creating a Mac version of the TiVo software should be pretty easy, they could conceivable just recompile the decryption software that actually runs on the TiVo unit for BSD/Darwin. Of course they would want to give us a nice, proper Mac interface, but that's not too difficult either. I'm beginning to wonder if the PC version came out first because they knew they would need to devote far more resources and man hours to get that accomplished while they could pop out a Mac version quickly with only a small delay.
> 
> It might even be worth trying to download the TiVo source code and see if has the decryption libraries and if they can be recompiled on one's own. If only I had the time, and the TiVo update. *


Sounds good to me. 
Shoulda stuck it out with those programing classes. (*Graphic Artist)
Then again, I don't know how far I would have gotten with Basic & Pascal on an Apple II


----------



## jalex

> _Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson _
> *Except that the TiVo's video is MPEG-2. *


You know, I looked back and forth several times at this before posting and just didn't pick it up. I think perhaps my brain just wanted to see "MPEG-2" in there. Oh well, guess we'll still have to run a conversion to do the editing.


----------



## Sethb

I agree, I was content to wait for a MacWorld announcement before commencing serious *****ing, but since we got nothing, I now feel free in griping. I'm going to upgrade one of my TiVos shortly, and knowing the timeline makes the difference between getting a 140 hour Series 2 or a Humax burner model. If Mac software is coming along in a couple of months, I'll get the 140. If "forthcoming" means "we're saying this so you don't burn down TiVo headquarters, but really we've got only one shoddy intern working on the project" then I'm just going to opt for the Humax burner and be done with it.

This is exactly the kind of info that a TiVo Community bulletin board is for, and exactly the kind of information loyal customers expect and deserve from a company they respect. I don't need a hard ship date, but something like "We've got a team developing software in house, shooting for a second quarter 2005 release" doesn't seem like much to ask, nor does being kept in the loop on development process until such time. There's no reason for TiVo to be abstract about this, it's not giving away a corporate secret, it's not giving their competitors an edge, it's treating their current customers with respect.

I've purchased FIVE TiVos, THREE lifetime subscriptions myself over the last four years. That's a couple thousand dollars I've put in their coffers, and have referred over a dozen TiVo purchases as well. I think they owe me this one.


----------



## SJN

I still have some hope in MacWorld; it runs all week, and even though Steve Jobs himself did not bring word down from the Mount, there's a lot going on. Perhaps some enterprising reporter will pry word from a developer, or embarrassing Apple into reconsidering development by asking what their plans are to counter Microsoft's demo at CES.


----------



## cwoody222

Keep dreamin'...


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by Sethb _
> *I agree, I was content to wait for a MacWorld announcement before commencing serious *****ing, but since we got nothing, I now feel free in griping. I'm going to upgrade one of my TiVos shortly, and knowing the timeline makes the difference between getting a 140 hour Series 2 or a Humax burner model. If Mac software is coming along in a couple of months, I'll get the 140. If "forthcoming" means "we're saying this so you don't burn down TiVo headquarters, but really we've got only one shoddy intern working on the project" then I'm just going to opt for the Humax burner and be done with it.
> 
> This is exactly the kind of info that a TiVo Community bulletin board is for, and exactly the kind of information loyal customers expect and deserve from a company they respect. I don't need a hard ship date, but something like "We've got a team developing software in house, shooting for a second quarter 2005 release" doesn't seem like much to ask, nor does being kept in the loop on development process until such time. There's no reason for TiVo to be abstract about this, it's not giving away a corporate secret, it's not giving their competitors an edge, it's treating their current customers with respect.
> 
> I've purchased FIVE TiVos, THREE lifetime subscriptions myself over the last four years. That's a couple thousand dollars I've put in their coffers, and have referred over a dozen TiVo purchases as well. I think they owe me this one. *


Seth,
My sentiments exactly


----------



## tonyf3

I'd like to see some Polls:

1. How long are you wiiling to wait on a Mac TiVo togo solution before exploring other options.
30 days, 60 days, 90 days, other

2. When do you think we'll actually see a Mac solution for TiVo togo.
30 days, 60 days, 90 days, other

3. How important is it that TiVo togo for Mac integrate with existing Mac applications such as idvd, imovie, quicktime. Instead of other third party apps.
Very important, Some what important, Not really, Don't care.


This would be nice to have with clickable radio Buttons, but I think only the moderators can make those. Anyway, they need to hear from the Mac community loud and clear.


----------



## cwoody222

Anyone can make a poll. Click "new thread" and then the final step asks you if you'd like to create a poll. You may have to do 3 seperate ones.


----------



## tonyf3

Thanks cwoody222. I'll set that thread up next. I still don't get the fact that Tivo has said basically nothing on the subject of Mac support, as to why and when.


----------



## mdscott

Why (just my own opinion): ration of Mac to Windows users in the TiVo installed base.

sighs and sadness

mds


----------



## amgqmp1

It's still beyond me that the TiVo Desktop 2.0 software isn't done in a cross-platform dev. environment (Java 2 anyone)...

...maybe the Mac mini will take off...but until then, Macs are only in a significant number of households for TiVo customers. They may only be 5% of the computing market but I'm sure they're 30% of the TiVo customer market.

Personally, I don't care...my newest Mac is a 6100/60


----------



## Unix_Beard

I should have bought a ReplayTV. I thought Tivo would be more conducive to developing for the Mac. I believe you can get video off of a ReplayTV fairly easily and then burn a DVD or whatever. Luckily I didn't get a lifetime subscription. 

If a Mac version was close, there would have been a less vague statement. I don't think a Mac version is imminent. I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## tonyf3

2 Poll threads on this are set up. Vote if you haven't.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217805

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217807&highlight=mac


----------



## tonyf3

Check this out as an alternative to TiVo togo.

http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC55/pm_advc55.asp

RCA to Firewire, into Final Cut or imovie. idvd to burn.

No Windows DRM.


----------



## dropd

> _Originally posted by Sethb _
> *it's not giving away a corporate secret, it's not giving their competitors an edge, it's treating their current customers with respect.
> *


Amen. This has been said by so many people on these boards (including myself) in the last 3 months, it's almost ridiculous.

It hurts watching TiVo inflict so much damage on itself right before our eyes. They're not simply losing market- and mind- share to their competitors. Rather, the company's recent behavior is actually unnecessarily _hastening_ those losses! It's confusing and depressing.


----------



## sad05

After 15 years of loyal Mac usage I shouldn't be surprised that *ONCE AGAIN* we've been given the programming shaft, but I am pretty disappointed.

When I found out about Tivo2Go, I ran right out and bought a USB adapter and crossover cable. I got home, pulled up the web page and there is was - Windows only.
You've got to be kidding!

I had been toying with the alternate method of getting stuff off the Tivo:
connect video camcorder and use as a bridge to the Mac, burn from Mac
But then I heard about the Tivo2Go and that sounded so much better!

How much longer will I wait for Tivo2Go? I don't know ... They don't give us any expected date ... Do they need beta testers? I'm right here! What do you need?!

I've got MST3K movies that need saving! 

No wonder the EyeTV booth was so packed at MacWorld. Seems like a pretty decent device ...


----------



## mattman

You know, I have recently looked at EyeTV as well, the main problem is that it doesn't do well with proprietary cable systems, which mine (GCI in Anchorage, AK) is. It doesn't have any kind of IR blaster, and serial control seems to be right out, so I'd be stuck with basic channels, and a great deal of my tv watching is the digital only channels. The other problem would be devoting a computer to this process, and I just don't have one available at this time. My only reasonable hope for this kind of stuff right now is TTG, because I've done the video camcoreder thing, and it's WAY too time consuming.

Matt


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by sad05 _
> *After 15 years of loyal Mac usage I shouldn't be surprised that *ONCE AGAIN* we've been given the programming shaft, but I am pretty disappointed.
> 
> When I found out about Tivo2Go, I ran right out and bought a USB adapter and crossover cable. I got home, pulled up the web page and there is was - Windows only.
> You've got to be kidding!
> 
> I had been toying with the alternate method of getting stuff off the Tivo:
> connect video camcorder and use as a bridge to the Mac, burn from Mac
> But then I heard about the Tivo2Go and that sounded so much better!
> 
> How much longer will I wait for Tivo2Go? I don't know ... They don't give us any expected date ... Do they need beta testers? I'm right here! What do you need?!
> 
> I've got MST3K movies that need saving!
> 
> No wonder the EyeTV booth was so packed at MacWorld. Seems like a pretty decent device ... *


I agree, and still we wait. Pretty sad indeed.


----------



## tonyf3

I keeping coming across a few posts here and there about " Hey aren't you used to waiting for Mac stuff" and "Don't you know what the Mac share of the market is, it's just business sense for them"

Yes, and Yes, I do. 
However, when a company is as vague as we're working on it, and the last time they said that was 18 months ago on AAC support. I believe they need to be tweaked, goaded, pushed, pulled or whatever into making good on what they promise to their PAYING SUBSCRIBERS!


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## tonyf3

Anytime now. Oh wait,.. I was dreaming.


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by mattman _
> *You know, I have recently looked at EyeTV as well, the main problem is that it doesn't do well with proprietary cable systems, which mine (GCI in Anchorage, AK) is. It doesn't have any kind of IR blaster, and serial control seems to be right out, so I'd be stuck with basic channels, and a great deal of my tv watching is the digital only channels. The other problem would be devoting a computer to this process, and I just don't have one available at this time. My only reasonable hope for this kind of stuff right now is TTG, because I've done the video camcoreder thing, and it's WAY too time consuming.
> 
> Matt *


Eye TV is an interesting option, I just prefer to watch on my TV 90% of the time. Copying to my 
Laptop, is 10%.


----------



## tonyf3

Yep, 2 weeks today Tivo togo was released. How's it comin' guys? The Mac Desktop 2.0 that is.
etc. etc.


----------



## bedelman

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *... and the last time they said that was 18 months ago on AAC support.*


 I believe the reference to AAC support only appeared in a very short mention on a Mac news web site. As far as I can recall, TiVo _never_ stated that they were working on AAC support where there is a direct statement from them.


----------



## themacjedi

> _Originally posted by bedelman _
> *I believe the reference to AAC support only appeared in a very short mention on a Mac news web site. As far as I can recall, TiVo never stated that they were working on AAC support where there is a direct statement from them. *


Just do a search on TiVo's website, it gives you the impression.

We are working on supporting the AAC music format, but do not have a current definitive timeline of when it will be available for our TiVo Series2 subscribers.

http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv1161.htm?


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## bedelman

OK -- I thought the reference might have been this one...

http://www.macminute.com/2003/05/28/tivo


> *TiVo working on AAC support for Home Media Option*
> May 28, 2003 - 13:42 EDT TiVo is working on a new version of the Mac OS X software for its Home Media Option that will let users stream AAC music files to their TiVo Digital Video Recorder (DVR), in addition to the already supported MP3 format. "We are working with Apple on a solution to support the AAC file format while also honoring the rights of copyright holders," a TiVo spokesperson told MacMinute. Last month, the company launched the Home Media Option, which lets users automatically stream music and photos from their Mac (via iTunes and iPhoto) to a TiVo Series2 DVR for listening/viewing on a TV. However, Apple has since released iTunes 4, which brought support for AAC files -- now the preferred music format for many users. As we previously reported, TiVos are also now being sold in Apple retail stores nationwide.


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## tonyf3

Thanks Bob! It seems they've chosen Microsofts DRM over Apples DRM


----------



## Tequila69

I know this is probably not the place to post this -- but since Im a MAC user and there doesnt seem to be many of us ( in TIVOland or elsewhere I'll try ... I'm having a rookie wireless setup issue, Im trying to use my Airport (snow) w/ a Netgear Ma111 - D-link cable router. I get though it all fine and it recognizes the network/ gives it an IP - but says it doesnt see DHCP server? What gives ? my powerbooks work just fine with the Airport/- Any Mac users please help -thanks


----------



## tonyf3

I have a similar setup. Do you have TiVo desktop 1.8 installed? Which device is serving up the DHCP
the Airport or the Netgear. It should be only one. I have the Airport doing the DHCP and it's turned off on my Linksys. You want to bridge the network, otherwise the Netgear is doing it's own thing and you
can't get back to the desktops.


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## tonyf3

http://www.divx.com/divx/

Anybody tried this to covert the files ?


----------



## tonyf3

Maybe we'll see something with with Tiger release in a couple of months. Jobs listed over 200 new features but was only able to go into a handful at the keynote in San Francisco.


----------



## SavMan

I hate to be the downer here, but this has nothing to do with Apple. Quicktime is about as open as it can be, so this is either some first-class lack of effort on TiVo's side, or the fact that TiVo partnered with Microsoft means we may never see this on our platform.

So far, all we know is that there is no Mac version, there is no date (even approximated) for us to hope for a Mac version, and the only version out there at all REQUIRES Windows' proprietary DirectShow filters to decrypt the .tivo file, and that Bill Gates himself has remarked on the great partnership he has made with TiVo to provide such DRMs. Doesn't look good, and I'm personally guaranteeing that no operating system upgrade is going to fix TiVo's foot-dragging on this.

It's going to be TiVo that has to fix this. On the other hand, don't you think that if TiVo was actually planning on releasing a Mac version, TiVoBill would be in here telling me I'm wrong? He's been on the lists for people *****ing about the Priority List every day, yet he's been pretty silent over on this side. I'm not going to say at this juncture that there will definitely never be a Mac version, but it sure looks like TiVo's trying to pull the wool over our eyes on this one.


----------



## timg

I agree completely. The lack of comment from TivoBill on the Mac issue should speak for itself. Also, the way that the FAQ is worded ("working on ways of enabling playback on the Mac") don't give me much hope.

If there truly was something in the works, they would have a tentative release date or timeframe, much like the "Fall 2004" they announced last year for TivoToGo. More likely, Tivo "sold out" to Microsoft's DRM and we will never see a Mac version ...


----------



## fishert

Is it possible the delay is due in part to the release of iLife 'O5? I am a devoted Macphile and also a TiVo zealot. I wouldn't trade either in for the world. Certainly I'm bummed about the wait, but from the sound of the windoze users complaints here TTG has not been such a grand feature. I'm more dissappointed on the AAC issue. I've finally given up and just bought a Monster mini to LR audio cable and will play my music through the aux audio ports on the front of my home theater from my iPod. I still love being able to view the photos using HMO over my wireless network and I use MRV to send shows between the bedroom and living room on a regular basis. I'm willing to wait on TTG, and expect something will happen within the coming months. Patience....Patience....


----------



## TiVoBill

> _Originally posted by timg _
> *I agree completely. The lack of comment from TivoBill on the Mac issue should speak for itself. Also, the way that the FAQ is worded ("working on ways of enabling playback on the Mac") don't give me much hope.
> 
> If there truly was something in the works, they would have a tentative release date or timeframe, much like the "Fall 2004" they announced last year for TivoToGo. More likely, Tivo "sold out" to Microsoft's DRM and we will never see a Mac version ... *


You are reading too much into the fact that I haven't said anything.  I havn't said anything because there is nothing new to say -- we ARE working on support for using the TiVoToGo feature on the Mac platform in the future. Because that development is ongoing, and a release date has not been scheduled at this time, I can't say any more.


----------



## timg

> _Originally posted by TiVoBill _
> *You are reading too much into the fact that I haven't said anything.  I havn't said anything because there is nothing new to say -- we ARE working on support for using the TiVoToGo feature on the Mac platform in the future. Because that development is ongoing, and a release date has not been scheduled at this time, I can't say any more. *


If you are "working on support ... on the Mac platform", why is there no schedule for release? Not even a tentative schedule. Are we going to see this release in 2005? 2006? 2007?

Until Tivo commits to a date (even if it's only tentative), TivoToGo for Mac is nothing but Vaporware. Tivo would not be the first company to say they are working a version of their product for the Mac and never deliver that product.

Bottom line for me is, if TivoToGo for Mac was a priority for Tivo, there would be a release schedule.


----------



## SJN

It seems like this forum is full of posts where TiVo is being flamed for announcing a new product before they were fully ready to commit to a firm roll-out date. At the same time, Mac users in this thread are flaming TiVo for not announcing a release date that is tenuous at best, and a wild guess at worst. As vocal as their user group has been about the way T2Go was delayed, can anyone really be surprised that TiVo learned their lesson? I would be surprised if we heard a peep from them until they were well into beta testing; for that matter, maybe not until they have 2.0 for Mac on the servers and ready to download.


----------



## cwoody222

Well over a year ago they announced they were "working on" bringing AAC support to HMO.

So, while I thank Bill for commenting here, "working on it... for the future" gives me little hope indeed. Add the Microsoft DRM stuff and my hope reaches zero.


----------



## futerfas

> _Originally posted by TiVoBill _
> *You are reading too much into the fact that I haven't said anything.  I havn't said anything because there is nothing new to say -- we ARE working on support for using the TiVoToGo feature on the Mac platform in the future. Because that development is ongoing, and a release date has not been scheduled at this time, I can't say any more. *





> _Originally posted by cwoody222 _
> *Well over a year ago they announced they were "working on" bringing AAC support to HMO.
> 
> So, while I thank Bill for commenting here, "working on it... for the future" gives me little hope indeed. Add the Microsoft DRM stuff and my hope reaches zero.  *


 They both bring up good points, I don't know what to think. Could they both be right??


----------



## timg

Of course they can both be right. I don't doubt that Tivo is working on Mac support for TivoToGo, and probably even still working on AAC support (who knows?). What I have concerns with is whether they will ever finish...


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by TiVoBill _
> *You are reading too much into the fact that I haven't said anything.  I havn't said anything because there is nothing new to say -- we ARE working on support for using the TiVoToGo feature on the Mac platform in the future. Because that development is ongoing, and a release date has not been scheduled at this time, I can't say any more. *


I'd like to thank TiVo Bill for commenting in this thread. 
A few things that could have helped Mac users leading up to the roll out of TiVo togo. 
TiVo announced T2GO last January. Huge anticipation followed. Some sort of addendum could have stated that the initial release would be for Windows only, and that the Mac version would follow in the first half of 2005. We'd have allot less to be disappointed about.
Fall, 2004 becomes Jan, 3 2005. and surprise in your Mac users stocking is a lump of coal. Why did I even bother paying attention to this release. Call me when it's done for Mac. It'll probably be better than the windows version just like before.


----------



## TiVoBill

Apple made the decision last year (after our notation that we were working with them) to not allow any application besides iTunes to play back music files purchased from the Apple Music Store. They have released several patch versions of the iTunes software this past year specifically to disable third-party applications and hardware devices that attempted to play protected music files. Any questions about that policy should be directed to Apple since they have applied that policy evenly toward everyone as far as I know. If you buy music from the Apple Music Store (as I do), you agree to play by their rules in how you listen to that music, which means only playing it using iTunes or on a iPod. It is certainly possible that we will support unencrypted AAC files at some point, but I don't know of any plans to do that at this time since the format is not all that popular outside of iTunes world. A third party person/company could also develop a plug-in for TiVo Desktop to play unencrypted AAC files (as they have done with WMA) but there doesn't seem to be much interest in that area.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

> _Originally posted by cwoody222 _
> *Add the Microsoft DRM stuff and my hope reaches zero.  *


What Microsoft DRM stuff? Everything that I've seen posted about this indicates that the Windows TiVo Desktop 2.0 installs a DirectShow filter, and from all appearances this filter is what decodes the DRM. That'd be unnecessary if TiVo were using Microsoft's DRM. You wouldn't do it as a DirectShow filter on the Mac side, obviously, but doing the same thing is possible under QuickTime. The actual encryption happens on the TiVo itself, which to me also implies that this isn't a Microsoft implementation. I'll admit I could be wrong, but based on what I've read here, I really don't think that the DRM is Microsoft's, it just happens to be implemented on Windows. I have no idea if anyone from TiVo could or would verify this.

I don't see this as being along the same lines as AAC. The biggest reason to handle AAC would be to handle purchases from the iTunes Music Store, which means decoding FairPlay, and which requires Apple to share, which, except for the announced-but-not-yet-available Motorola phone, it hasn't. Yes, yes, I know that you can rip unprotected AAC in iTunes (and that that is the default in new installs of iTunes,) but I personally don't see ripping things as MP3s as really being a very big compromise. Disclaimer: personally, I had most of my music collection ripped into iTunes as MP3 prior to support for AAC being added to begin with, so you can take that with however many grains of salt as you'd like. We know that as Mac users we're a smaller subset of TiVo users; I suspect that unencrypted-AAC-only Mac users are a yet smaller set.

In other words, "working on AAC" really means "waiting for Apple to allow us to decode FairPlay, and "working on TiVoToGo for Mac" really (most likely) means "we're working on it ourselves." That's a pretty significant difference, assuming I'm interpreting the situation correctly.

TiVo never claimed that this would be ready for the Mac on day one; in fact, they stated a number of times that they expected it wouldn't be. Any expectations people had here were likely due to TiVo saying similar things before the HMO release and still having day one Mac support, combined with the demo of a Mac version earlier. It wasn't ever promised, though.

_Edit: and that's what I get for writing a long post while watching a TiVo'd show -- TiVoBill beats me to the punch! Well, at least my suspicions about AAC were confirmed...  _


----------



## TiVoBill

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *I'd like to thank TiVo Bill for commenting in this thread.
> A few things that could have helped Mac users leading up to the roll out of TiVo togo.
> TiVo announced T2GO last January. Huge anticipation followed. Some sort of addendum could have stated that the initial release would be for Windows only, and that the Mac version would follow in the first half of 2005. We'd have allot less to be disappointed about.
> Fall, 2004 becomes Jan, 3 2005. and surprise in your Mac users stocking is a lump of coal. Why did I even bother paying attention to this release. Call me when it's done for Mac. It'll probably be better than the windows version just like before. *


I think there are a few misconceptions going on here. As far as I know, TiVo never announced that TiVoToGo would be available at launch for the Mac platform (or the Windows platform for that matter). Versions of TiVoToGo were developed for the Windows and Mac platforms in parallel. It just so happens that the TiVo Desktop for Windows was completed in time for launch and the Mac version was not. We continue to work on it. It wasn't known until the very end if there would be a Mac version at launch time or not so there wasn't any time for communication about something that we never announced in the first place. I understand your disappointment though -- I have a iBook that I would love to be able to use TiVoToGo on, but I have to be patient for now. All other discussion is just speculation and really is unnecessary at this point.


----------



## mattman

Thanks again for the update and letting us know what you can Bill. I would like for it to be released as soon as possible, but I understand how things work.

Here's hoping for TiVoToGo on the Mac soon!

Matt


----------



## timg

Bill,

If what you state is true, then why no release date? What's the hold up?

I am sure all of the Mac people here appreciate your updates and efforts, but it is really frustrating to be left hanging with just a "we're working on it" ...


----------



## TiVoBill

> _Originally posted by timg _
> *Bill,
> 
> If what you state is true, then why no release date? What's the hold up?
> *


I don't know.. I work in Customer Support, not Engineering.  All I know is, it's not ready, and won't be released until it is. If you would like to join the TiVo engineering staff, they always have openings (and far more to do than time to do it).


----------



## timg

Well, I am an engineer so maybe I will look into the openings. As an engineer though, I've never seen a project without a schedule ...


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by TiVoBill _
> *I think there are a few misconceptions going on here. As far as I know, TiVo never announced that TiVoToGo would be available at launch for the Mac platform (or the Windows platform for that matter). Versions of TiVoToGo were developed for the Windows and Mac platforms in parallel. It just so happens that the TiVo Desktop for Windows was completed in time for launch and the Mac version was not. We continue to work on it. It wasn't known until the very end if there would be a Mac version at launch time or not so there wasn't any time for communication about something that we never announced in the first place. I understand your disappointment though -- I have a iBook that I would love to be able to use TiVoToGo on, but I have to be patient for now. All other discussion is just speculation and really is unnecessary at this point. *


Points taken Bill, thank you.
I guess it was the that it's development was sounding more like the AAC thing.
Working on it's release at some point. Also if TiVo is working with Apple I imagine the are
several NDA's that were signed about releasing info about products in development. So, that would make sense on the lack of info.


----------



## cwoody222

> _Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson _
> *What Microsoft DRM stuff? Everything that I've seen posted about this indicates that the Windows TiVo Desktop 2.0 installs a DirectShow filter, and from all appearances this filter is what decodes the DRM. That'd be unnecessary if TiVo were using Microsoft's DRM. You wouldn't do it as a DirectShow filter on the Mac side, obviously, but doing the same thing is possible under QuickTime. [/i] *


I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said "Microsoft DRM" I should said "Windows DRM". It's a mistake I've made before too.

My point is - they used a DRM that works with Windows in a way that they cannot replicate on a Mac. Surely there was a cross-platform solution they could have done instead.

Why would they have chosen to force themselves to create two seperate methods?

That said... TiVoBill's comments here DO finally give me hope. This FINALLY makes it sound like a Mac version is being worked on and has been being worked on for some time (ie: they didn't just start once the Windows version was out the door).

Their timeframe is still a mystery and it took them FOREVER for the Windows version so I'm still not going to get too excited too soon but I have some hope now.

(although I reserve the right to take that all back once we start hitting the 6-8mo mark  )

The AAC stuff is a shame on Apple's side. It's also a shame this is the first time someone from TiVo has commented as such. I still think surely there'd be a way to stream this music somehow (didn't Real do it?). Plus, this really isn't a "Mac user" thing - this affects everyone - and it's the most popular digital music store out there.


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## dropd

> _Originally posted by TiVoBill _
> *I think there are a few misconceptions going on here. As far as I know, TiVo never announced that TiVoToGo would be available at launch for the Mac platform *


Correct, TiVo never did. But at CES 2004, when T2G was introduced, it was demoed to conference-goers on both windows and mac, with *wink wink* implications much posted about on this board that mac support was a done deal.

Something changed between then and now, obviously. We're all just disappointed with that change.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

> _Originally posted by cwoody222 _
> *My point is - they used a DRM that works with Windows in a way that they cannot replicate on a Mac. Surely there was a cross-platform solution they could have done instead.
> 
> Why would they have chosen to force themselves to create two seperate methods?*


I wouldn't go so far as to say the methods are completely separate. I'd guess that probably 80% of the logic would be cross-platform, and much of the DirectShow-specific stuff (or QuickTime-specific stuff on the Mac side) would simply be glue to make all the functions land in the right place and affect the right data.

They could have been completely cross-platform with a QuickTime implementation, or by writing their own player from the ground up, including codecs and the like. The former would have worked, but may or may not have played nicely with the DVD burning apps, and for a consumer-type application isn't really the way to do things (I like sticking with the tools that ship with the system as much as possible for consumer apps). The latter would also have worked, but would have been a much larger effort, incurred MPEG2 licensing fees, and still not have gotten them anywhere with the DVD apps unless they rolled their own there, too.



> *The AAC stuff is a shame on Apple's side. It's also a shame this is the first time someone from TiVo has commented as such. I still think surely there'd be a way to stream this music somehow (didn't Real do it?). Plus, this really isn't a "Mac user" thing - this affects everyone - and it's the most popular digital music store out there. *


Real did it, Apple broke it, and I don't know if Real has re-patched their stuff, if Apple has re-broken it, etc. (See Also Hymn.)

I agree, and I've submitted feedback to Apple as such. I can see not licensing to direct competitors to the iPod, at least understanding where Apple makes it's money, but why they wouldn't license to other folks like Roku and TiVo for specific applications like this doesn't make sense to me. You don't have to license to everyone the same way.

That said, I see a very, very faint glimmer of home in this so-called Motorola "iPhone", which will be, as far as I know, the only non-Apple product sanctioned by Apple to play ITMS content. But we'll see.


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## cwoody222

> _Originally posted by dropd _
> *Correct, TiVo never did. But at CES 2004, when T2G was introduced, it was demoed to conference-goers on both windows and mac, with *wink wink* implications much posted about on this board that mac support was a done deal.
> 
> Something changed between then and now, obviously. We're all just disappointed with that change. *


The dongle?

Could that be the reason? When they were going to use the dongle it was probably just a USB thing - easy to be cross platform.

But when they discarded that idea the need for a much more robust DRM was probably needed.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

> _Originally posted by cwoody222 _
> *The dongle?
> 
> Could that be the reason? When they were going to use the dongle it was probably just a USB thing - easy to be cross platform.*


I wouldn't think so.

USB things (certainly custom USB devices like copy protection devices) require drivers. USB drivers on Mac OS X and on WinXP/Win2K are different. Again, though, it's probably a matter of 70-80% cross-platform code with glue on the specific OSes, depending on how well engineered the solution is.

You'd still need to integrate things with QuickTime and/or DirectShow, there'd just be a piece of hardware to talk to.


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## fanimaniac

> _Originally posted by rainwater _
> *Does anyone read the actual details that Tivo posted? They said they are working on the Mac solution. They wouldn't say that if they weren't going to have one. It's not available now. I know that sucks if you have a Mac, but thats the facts. *


I read the details -- and what they said is "We are currently working on ways to enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers." -- notice that they only mention PLAYBACK, and don't mention RECORDING TO DVD. I don't think that wording was unintentional...


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## Unix_Beard

> _Originally posted by TiVoBill _
> *I don't know.. I work in Customer Support, not Engineering.  All I know is, it's not ready, and won't be released until it is. If you would like to join the TiVo engineering staff, they always have openings (and far more to do than time to do it). *


TivoBill, thanks for chiming in. Its nice to have an actual human from a company interact personally with their company's customers.

If the versions were being worked on in parallel and you state that it just wasn't ready for the "Launch," can't Tivo commit to some timeframe? Can Tivo commit to 2005? It must be close if what you say is true. Is the big hoopla over a Tivo-Microsoft partnership in some way hindering the Mac development?

I know you probably can't answer these questions but what the hell.

From a customer service standpoint, I'd just like to add that I bought into the whole Tivo thing last year specifically because it appeared as if you treated Mac users equally. That was refreshing. This series of events is disappointing and while it won't be enough to make me give up my Tivo, I doubt I'd buy another one or commit to the lifetime contract until this is sorted out. Some communication with your engineering department and a little PR wouldn't hurt. Thanks.


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## tonyf3

original post from bmgoodman:

I burned the first three hours of 24 last night and I had no problems with the transfer. However, the three episodes I recorded at "high" looked like crap once I played the DVD! I did use the "Fit-to-DVD" option, so maybe that was it.
There was a very noticeable increase in jpg-like "blockiness", but more than that, there were shifting horizontal lines, especially immediately after an action scene. It doesn't play this way on my PC, so it appears to be a transcoding issue.

Sheesh--after spending three hours of PC time to transcode it, I am SORELY DISAPPOINTED. If THIS is as good as it gets, I've got pretty close to nothing!
_____________________________________
I was thinking of adding more TiVo's to my network but after reading this users experience I think I'm going to wait a while to see how this all shakes out.
tonyf3


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## tonyf3

Oh, I forgot to mention. Day 16 since signing up on the priorty list and still have Software version:4.0.1b-02-2-140. Have a nice day.


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## TiVoBill

> _Originally posted by themacjedi _
> *I can honestly say that I would rather have a release date that you miss than to be given absolutely no info. Atleast then I believe it's being worked on. Your lack of information is what breeds all of the mad Mac user posts on forums like these. As devoted customers of your service and publicizers of the greatness of TiVo we truly deserve better than this. *


I don't know how much more clearly I can say "there is no release date scheduled." Do you want me to make a date up?


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## TiVoBill

I have told you absolutely all information available at this time. For that reason, I will not be posting further in this thread. Feel free to continue speculating if you would like.

Edited message to tone it down without altering its meaning.


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## Unix_Beard

TivoBill - That last post really turned me off. It was rude and didn't need to be worded that way. Will the Mac version EVER be ready? Why is Tivo acting so defensive and rude about this? Obviously there is no date scheduled or it would have been posted. I work on very large projects myself but an end point is never open-ended. I don't tell my clients "it will be ready when its ready." I tell them a time frame so they know what to expect.


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## Unix_Beard

> _Originally posted by TiVoBill _
> *I don't know how much more clearly I can say "there is no release date scheduled." Do you want me to make a date up?  *


Are the people working on this really that out of it that they can't commit to a year? Wow.


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## mdscott

On T2G it self TiVo announced Fall -- and was treated to 3 months of excoriation. As a company they have made the decision not to announce a Mac time frame. Could they -- sure. Does someone in the company have an idea of when it is likely to be -- probably. Are they obligated to tell us however much noise we make -- absolutely not. Will that make some people angry and vocal -- clearly yes. Is all this a Machiavellian plot on the part of TiVoBill -- I don't think so...

mds


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## corjulo

Maybe Tivo is waiting for Apple to release Quicktime 7?


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## Unix_Beard

> _Originally posted by mdscott _
> *On T2G it self TiVo announced Fall -- and was treated to 3 months of excoriation. As a company they have made the decision not to announce a Mac time frame. Could they -- sure. Does someone in the company have an idea of when it is likely to be -- probably. Are they obligated to tell us however much noise we make -- absolutely not. Will that make some people angry and vocal -- clearly yes. Is all this a Machiavellian plot on the part of TiVoBill -- I don't think so...
> mds *


Even Apple themselves can commit to a quarter for a major OS release.

I understand where you are coming from. Tivo didn't seem to have an issue with alienating the Windows people, why on earth should they care about us Mac people?

The twist here is that we are paying customers just like the Windows users. Why should we pay the same for less service without even a modicum of concern from Tivo's own Customer Service guy? We can deal with getting the high-hat on the Launch date but give us something. TivoBill gave nothing but vague comments as if he doesn't ever communicate with the engineering staff.


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## corjulo

I said it before and I'll say it again. Mac user need to turn up the pressure on Tivo. At this point the only thing tivo has going for itself is word of mouth. I say Mac users need to make it clear to Tivo that they will be actively discouraging people from buying Tivo until they start honoring their PROMISES to the Mac user base.

Just a reminder, if you have not complained to Tivo yet then call and do so now. Just keep saying "Live Agent" into their silly voice routing system. Number is 877-367-8486


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## Unix_Beard

> _Originally posted by corjulo _
> *I said it before and I'll say it again. Mac user need to turn up the pressure on Tivo. At this point the only thing tivo has going for itself is word of mouth. I say Mac users need to make it clear to Tivo that they will be actively discouraging people from buying Tivo until they start honoring their PROMISES to the Mac user base.
> 
> Just a reminder, if you have not complained to Tivo yet then call and do so now. Just keep saying "Live Agent" into their silly voice routing system. Number is 877-367-8486 *


I agree. If Tivo wants to play games by stating obvious lines like "There is no scheduled release date" then it only escalates the discontent. That line is insulting. Of course there isn't or you'd have it posted on your website! In fact, THIS THREAD is already on the 2nd page of results if you Google "Tivo Mac." Not good.


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## corjulo

Hey

Tivo Bill. As a stock holder I think your attitude kinda SUCKS. It's bad enough how much money I've lost last year because Tivo was being run by idiots. Now I've got to listen to you insult people. At the very least we want an engineer, familiar with the Apple software, to give us an update. Is that all that hard? No date, just the nuts and bolt of what is done and needs to be done.


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## timg

> _Originally posted by corjulo _
> *Hey
> 
> Tivo Bill. As a stock holder I think your attitude kinda SUCKS. It's bad enough how much money I've lost last year because Tivo was being run by idiots. Now I've got to listen to you insult people. At the very least we want an engineer, familiar with the Apple software, to give us an update. Is that all that hard? No date, just the nuts and bolt of what is done and needs to be done. *


Ok, I am as unhappy with the situation as the next Mac user, but I seriously doubt Tivo Bill has any control of the situation. I also don't remember him insulting anyone, although the reverse is not true.

As for an engineer commenting on the situation, you must be dreaming. There's a reason a company like Tivo has a customer support department. Your best hope is that the customer support department relays your concerns to the company management and take some action. Of course, insulting Tivo Bill is not the way to get that done.


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## cwoody222

To Bill's defense.... we've been beating him pretty bad here and in other threads.

Maybe he does know more or wants to say more but CANNOT.

Either way, he's in a hard position and he's human. He snapped... a very small bit. And then he edited his post.

I would'a snapped way sooner.

I still wish I had Mac support NOW but I certainly don't blame Bill for it or for other major TiVo missteps lately.


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## ZeoTiVo

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *Even Apple themselves can commit to a quarter for a major OS release.
> 
> I understand where you are coming from. Tivo didn't seem to have an issue with alienating the Windows people, why on earth should they care about us Mac people?
> 
> The twist here is that we are paying customers just like the Windows users. Why should we pay the same for less service without even a modicum of concern from Tivo's own Customer Service guy? We can deal with getting the high-hat on the Launch date but give us something. TivoBill gave nothing but vague comments as if he doesn't ever communicate with the engineering staff. *


seems like TiVo's own Customer Service Guy agve you way more than a modicum of concern. But like a vocal minority in many types of groups you just kept hammering the guy even though others in the thread were getting that he gave you the TiVo info tehre was to give. Yes you pay the same as me for TiVo but TiVo is a business and quite frankly Apple has not made an easy DRM available within its OS from what I read here. The problem has not been TiVo not wanting to support Macs, but apple being more trouble code wise to work with the published APIs of Windows.

The insistence of TiVo guessing the work left to be done when it is probably in Apples court anyway would be hard to keep reading and not snap. Thank God there are also a lot of level headed Apple Users in this thread as well.

PS - oh yah - calling Custoemr service to tell them the obvious is a good way to get better results as well. Much like hitting the <ENTER> key reepeatedly will get an app to run faster


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## Unix_Beard

> _Originally posted by ZeoTiVo _
> *seems like TiVo's own Customer Service Guy agve you way more than a modicum of concern. But like a vocal minority in many types of groups you just kept hammering the guy even though others in the thread were getting that he gave you the TiVo info tehre was to give. Yes you pay the same as me for TiVo but TiVo is a business and quite frankly Apple has not made an easy DRM available within its OS from what I read here. The problem has not been TiVo not wanting to support Macs, but apple being more trouble code wise to work with the published APIs of Windows.
> 
> The insistence of TiVo guessing the work left to be done when it is probably in Apples court anyway would be hard to keep reading and not snap. Thank God there are also a lot of level headed Apple Users in this thread as well.
> 
> PS - oh yah - calling Custoemr service to tell them the obvious is a good way to get better results as well. Much like hitting the <ENTER> key reepeatedly will get an app to run faster *


Great. So tell us its an Apple issue. Then we get on Apple's case.

Listen up. TivoBill is a CS guy for Tivo. His job is to satisfy customers. I'd gladly email Tivo and voice my concern _if Tivo had a published CS email address._ No one hammered anyone. When asked what the status was, TivoBill replied he was a CS guy not an engineering guy. A better response might have been "Let me touch base with engineering and get a clearer understanding of what's going on."

And you honestly believe that calling Customer Service of a company from whom you bought a product is not a legitimate way to voice your concerns? My god man, what else is left for the consumer? Quiet obedience?

And don't give me the Apple DRM. Apple has so far created the most successful and lenient DRM scheme on the planet with the iTMS.


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## TiVoBill

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *
> Listen up. TivoBill is a CS guy for Tivo. His job is to satisfy customers. *


Actually, my job is to manage the creation and updating of content for our internal and external support sites. My time spent here is on a volunteer basis and often outside of business hours. I come here and share what information I am authorized to as a service to the community, which I have enjoyed being part of for the last the 5 years. Lately, this has become less of a community, and more of a platform for a few disgruntled people to "vent". The latter holds a lot less interest to me so perhaps I should reconsider how I spend my free time.


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## Bierboy

Way to go, jacka**es. 

Bill, thank you for all the help you and the others (Liz, etc) have provided here. Should you part ways with this forum (I wouldn't blame you in the least), enjoy your free time.


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## CrispyCritter

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *Great. So tell us its an Apple issue. Then we get on Apple's case.
> ....
> And don't give me the Apple DRM. Apple has so far created the most successful and lenient DRM scheme on the planet with the iTMS. *


 Possibly. But knowingly screwed TiVo doing it.

TiVo and Apple had all kinds of plans about AAC and other things at the time of the HMO initial release. (Apple was about to start selling TiVo's in their store for instance, and had even taken delivery of the initial shipment of TiVo's). TiVo hinted that good things were coming. Apple then cancelled everything, and a couple months later came out with iTunes and no support for AAC in HMO.

TiVo is not about to publicize any future dates on the Mac release if it depends on Apple in any way. They've been burned once. I'm sure they're working with Apple about it, but publicizing dates seems very unlikely. It will come when it's ready.


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## corjulo

> _Originally posted by CrispyCritter _
> *Possibly. But knowingly screwed TiVo doing it.
> 
> TiVo and Apple had all kinds of plans about AAC and other things at the time of the HMO initial release. (Apple was about to start selling TiVo's in their store for instance, and had even taken delivery of the initial shipment of TiVo's). TiVo hinted that good things were coming. Apple then cancelled everything, and a couple months later came out with iTunes and no support for AAC in HMO.
> 
> TiVo is not about to publicize any future dates on the Mac release if it depends on Apple in any way. They've been burned once. I'm sure they're working with Apple about it, but publicizing dates seems very unlikely. It will come when it's ready. *


That's just nonsense. And, with what we know about Tivo and Comcast it's pretty clear killing relationships is something Tivo is good at. iTune pre-dated the HMO announcement by years. If you mean the Apple music store then any announcement about that prior to apple's release would have been business suicide on Tivo's part. AAC limits on music file is more likely something the artists are insisting on and not Apple. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TIVOTOGO.

I called tivo three times last fall and was assured a Mac release would be available the same time the PC version was. I purchased a second tivo and all the network crap based on that. NOW TIVO SAYS I WAS LIED TO AND TOUGH LUCK. I don't think so. Had someone, anyone, said the mac version will be delayed for several month then all of this would be a non-issue. But Tivo choose to lie.... three times.

Bill can stop coming here if he likes. But if he's volunteering on his own time then he might want to hide the fact that he works for tivo.


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## NinjaMonkey

What does Apple have to do with Tivo supporting AAC? AAC is .mp4 and has nothing to do with Apple. Now songs from the iTunes Music Store are protected AAC and is up to Apple to license the DRM.

My question is why can't Tivo just at least give us basic AAC support? Most of my music is encoded in AAC and I'm sure lots of other peoples is too. With iTunes being availible on Mac and Windows and AAC being the default ripping codec, you'd think Tivo would add support. TivoToGo support for the Mac is another thing but AAC isn't just a Mac issue anymore.


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## ZeoTiVo

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *Great. So tell us its an Apple issue. Then we get on Apple's case.
> 
> Listen up. TivoBill is a CS guy for Tivo. His job is to satisfy customers. I'd gladly email Tivo and voice my concern if Tivo had a published CS email address. No one hammered anyone. When asked what the status was, TivoBill replied he was a CS guy not an engineering guy. A better response might have been "Let me touch base with engineering and get a clearer understanding of what's going on."
> 
> And you honestly believe that calling Customer Service of a company from whom you bought a product is not a legitimate way to voice your concerns? My god man, what else is left for the consumer? Quiet obedience?
> 
> And don't give me the Apple DRM. Apple has so far created the most successful and lenient DRM scheme on the planet with the iTMS. *


and apple will not license the DRM scheme to anyone which is why TiVo does not want to support AAC format and deal with people not understanding why some work and some dont. it was also why Realnetworks tried to break it on their own and then Apple changed it to break the hack.

and why TiVo can not use that DRM because Apple will not license it to anyone.

so you all picked a great company who make great OSes on well engineered boxes but as a result have their way of doing things to protect that and 3rd party companies have to deal with that in order to get something out. Now you all will have to deal with having to wait the extra time it takes for TiVo to deal with that since they could not get it out at the same time as the windows platform like they planned.

and jamming the phone system or pushing away the one source of info from TiVo that actually knows a bit more than a CSR trying to make the customer happy by saying sure it will be out is the reason I avoided this thread until now . I will go back to reading the thread by Mac users trying to figure out how to make things work anyway. Seems like the kind of spirit I more equated with Mac.


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## Unix_Beard

TivoBill - In all due respect, your title contains the words "Customer Service." When Tivo makes questionable decisions, you'd have to expect what you get in here. I apologize if I came off harsh (which I don't think I did) and you should keep posting. You were here long before me and I've gotten my questions answered. Of course, the ill will could be avoided by communication - and I don't mean in this forum. A technology company that doesn't answer email? I absolutely loved Tivo and now unfortunately thats changing.


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## tonyf3

ZeoTiVo & TiVo Bill.
I thank you for and appreciate you taking the time to comment in this thread. The thread was intended to start a dialog I hadn't seen in other threads about Mac support. You are correct in the Spirit equated with the Mac, that it is a more positive with a make things work kind of energy. I was initially peeved in the first post. But then bits and pieces have seemed to outline a picture that basically shows a lack of collaboration on the Apple & TiVo side, and a lack a timely useful communtication between TiVo and it's customer base. TiVo togo is a great idea. Mac users are just kind of used to having the great cool stuff first.

I hope Apple & TiVo can work out their issues in a timely manner and the TiVo Mac user base can enjoy this great feature.


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## masteryoda305

Ya. That tivo-mplayer build doesn't work. I couldn't get it to compile correctly, and the binary linked too from the site doesn't work.


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## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by masteryoda305 _
> *Ya. That tivo-mplayer build doesn't work. I couldn't get it to compile correctly, and the binary linked too from the site doesn't work. *


Is this the TiVo mplayer build for OSX?


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## cwoody222

Isn't TiVo mPlayer a version of mPlayer used to play STREAMS of content on your TiVo... and it's only been tested on old TiVo software. It was made awhile ago, right, to deal w/ streams and shows pulled from hacked Series1 machines.

It's been around way before TiVo started allowing downloads and began encrypting them.

So this mPlayer isn't going to be able to handle the encryption at all.


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## tonyf3

Day 20, still waiting for 7.1. Signed Priorty list on 1/3.


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## tonyf3

I don't suppose if my network was down at the time of the 7.1 push that it would re-send it later.
I was on the priorty list the first day. I discovered that my wife had knocked the plug out for the router while vacuming. It was down for a few hours. Damn.


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## cwoody222

If you're on the list to get it you'll get it the next time you call in. Regardless of when that is.

There's not a 'window of opportunity' that if you miss it, you're out of luck until the general release.


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## tonyf3

Thanks cwoody, still waiting.


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## tonyf3

Wondering if any Apple folks would care to chime in unoffically & anonymously of course, about what's going on with the Mac TiVo togo release.


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## tonyf3

Reaching out to Apple here a little because TiVo seems to be mum on "they're working on it", and in some of the posts the finger is pointed squarly at Apple for some of the issues and delays. Just wondering if anybody in, at, or close to Apple has anything to say. Anonymously of course.


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## SavMan

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *Wondering if any Apple folks would care to chime in unoffically & anonymously of course, about what's going on with the Mac TiVo togo release. *


Tony, I don't know why you have assumed that Apple has anything to do with this program. You and I have been though seven forum pages on this topic (I was the first to respond to your thread), and the only real, official information was TiVoBill reacting rudely to an assertion that there should be an approximate release date for a program. Apple's FairPlay DRM for iTMS music and their lack of cooperation with TiVo on said DRM has *nothing* to do with this.

TiVo to Go worked on a Mac during its preview version at the 2004 CES. However, between there and today, TiVo decided to require a proprietary Windows program to decode its own DRM scheme. One or two people on this forum have chosen to argue with me that this is not a Microsoft DRM. Whether you want to split hairs or not, DirectShow (Microsoft tech) is required to decode your .tivo files, and Bill Gates has gloated publicly about his partnership with TiVo. Make your own decision about what that means.

But it's a bit infuriating that given no information from TiVo, you have pieced together the idea that Apple, a company that need have nothing to do with TiVo for TTG to work, is somehow conspiring in a back room to keep this project from coming out. Nowhere in the entire body of information on this site is there any evidence at all of Apple having anything to do with this delay. Quicktime is the industry standard for digital video, and is quite open. There's a reason that Quicktime was picked as the basis for MPEG-4. Likewise, OSX is nearly open-source and has quite an extensive library of developer tools. To claim that Apple is purposefully holding back *another company's* project, thereby allowing Windows to claim better functionality with the number-one DVR in the industry, comes across as naive. I mean really, when it came out for PC you told everyone to wait for MacWorld (a hope that was of course, unfounded). You laid down a deadline for TiVo to let us know what was going on by the 30th, then "sharpen the pitchforks." I agree with this. Now, however, you've decided to shift the blame to Apple, which is useless since they have nothing to do with TiVo's development team.

Let us not be led to stab futilely at the red cloth -- instead we should charge for the matador. TiVo is the one who is screwing us here. Until we get some real info, we have no reason to believe they will ever give us a version for our platform. If you want this program to ever exist for the Mac, you need to direct your ire toward the appropriate company - TiVo.

I'm not saying that building this is easy, but it's certainly not impossible. However, TiVo's slavish insistence to insult us with *no release date whatsoever* speaks more to a lack of development on TiVo's part than anything to do with an independent company such as Apple. If a version ever comes out, and we learn that Apple was keeping a new version, I will personally apologize to you and TiVoBill. However, nothing has come out that could even hint at that.


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## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *Tony, I don't know why you have assumed that Apple has anything to do with this program. You and I have been though seven forum pages on this topic (I was the first to respond to your thread), and the only real, official information was TiVoBill reacting rudely to an assertion that there should be an approximate release date for a program. Apple's FairPlay DRM for iTMS music and their lack of cooperation with TiVo on said DRM has nothing to do with this.
> 
> TiVo to Go worked on a Mac during its preview version at the 2004 CES. However, between there and today, TiVo decided to require a proprietary Windows program to decode its own DRM scheme. One or two people on this forum have chosen to argue with me that this is not a Microsoft DRM. Whether you want to split hairs or not, DirectShow (Microsoft tech) is required to decode your .tivo files, and Bill Gates has gloated publicly about his partnership with TiVo. Make your own decision about what that means.
> 
> But it's a bit infuriating that given no information from TiVo, you have pieced together the idea that Apple, a company that need have nothing to do with TiVo for TTG to work, is somehow conspiring in a back room to keep this project from coming out. Nowhere in the entire body of information on this site is there any evidence at all of Apple having anything to do with this delay. Quicktime is the industry standard for digital video, and is quite open. There's a reason that Quicktime was picked as the basis for MPEG-4. Likewise, OSX is nearly open-source and has quite an extensive library of developer tools. To claim that Apple is purposefully holding back another company's project, thereby allowing Windows to claim better functionality with the number-one DVR in the industry, comes across as naive. I mean really, when it came out for PC you told everyone to wait for MacWorld (a hope that was of course, unfounded). You laid down a deadline for TiVo to let us know what was going on by the 30th, then "sharpen the pitchforks." I agree with this. Now, however, you've decided to shift the blame to Apple, which is useless since they have nothing to do with TiVo's development team.
> 
> Let us not be led to stab futilely at the red cloth -- instead we should charge for the matador. TiVo is the one who is screwing us here. Until we get some real info, we have no reason to believe they will ever give us a version for our platform. If you want this program to ever exist for the Mac, you need to direct your ire toward the appropriate company - TiVo.
> 
> I'm not saying that building this is easy, but it's certainly not impossible. However, TiVo's slavish insistence to insult us with no release date whatsoever speaks more to a lack of development on TiVo's part than anything to do with an independent company such as Apple. If a version ever comes out, and we learn that Apple was keeping a new version, I will personally apologize to you and TiVoBill. However, nothing has come out that could even hint at that. *


SavMan,
I've greatly apppreciated your insightful posts. I wasn't implying that it was Apple's fault or problem. I was just interested to see if anyone from the Apple side had any info on this that they could share. I also feel a we need to keep this issue visible.

Tonyf3

See copyied post below:
Originally posted by corjulo 
Just talked to Tivo and a good friend at Apple. Tivo- to-go will indeed run on a Mac. This guy works in the Quicktime group so he would have first hand knowledge. Can't say for certain it will be working right away. He would not go into it anymore then that.

I then called Tivo and said I was thinking of adding a second machine. I made them check with a supervisor about the Mac questions. They also said yes.


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## tonyf3

Originally posted by jduksta 
All TiVo needs to do is release a codec for quicktime*. 

If they want to do their DRM thing, they can insert it into the processing stream for Quicktime, just as they have under windows. While they're at it, they should be sure to use the keychain for storing that damn viewing password. Damn, I hate that thing. They would surely want to include a nice Cocoa GUI for retrieving the files from TiVo, but I could live without that given that the web interface exists.

All primary work in the house has switched to Macs over the last year, but I've still got a Shuttle XPC that lives as the repository of all media. I've been playing with TTG for the last week and frankly, I'm unimpressed. It requires admin rights to run and seemingly to use the media. I can't get an unpriviledged account to run the software or play the .tivo files. This is bad for security and really annoying. I've also had trouble getting TD 2.0 to see and connect to TiVo to pull shows, both with and without the XP firewall running. It would be really handy if I could hardcode TiVo's IP address into TD 2.0, or they could just use Rendezvous.

In case I haven't laid out a clear enough development plan for TiVo, here it goes:

- Quicktime codec to do the DRM business.
- Plug current encryption algorithm functions into a Quicktime component. 
It shouldn't be hard. Data goes in one end encrypted and comes out the 
other in the clear.
- Use the keychain to store the playback password.
- Needs to work as an unpriviledged user.

- Cocoa GUI to retrieve the .tivo files.
- If rendezvous is still in the box (wasn't it used for the original HMO 
connection to Macs?) turn it back on and have TiVo annouce itself 
to the GUI.
- Failing that, give me a place to hard code an IP address for each Tivo I may have.
- Needs to run as an unpriviledged user.

If TiVo follows this simple plan, they would have iLife integration immediately. No third party burning applications would be required. I couldn't see this taking more than a month or two to develop and QA. However, the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that TiVo's partners** in TTG might prefer that there wasn't Mac support for this.

* developer.apple.com/documentation/QuickTime/RM/CompressDecompress/CodecComponents/rmCodecComp/chapter_1_section_1.html
** tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=233



Well said jduksta. I love detailed plans. Now they just have to follow them.


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## cwoody222

I don't believe that post by corjulo at all. Wasn't it made weeks ago? What proof does he have.

And calling TiVo and asking means nothing. TiVo HAS said they're developing Mac support. They just haven't said if it'll come in a few days, a few weeks, or months or years. Customer service (and any 'manager' around to ask) would have zero knowledge of detailed plans that they would share w/ callers.

As for Rendezvous... that technology is still present in 7.1. It was never removed. It works the same as it always does for easy TiVo connectivity to your network.


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## SavMan

Fair enough, *tonyf3*. As long as everyone is clear here that TiVo, not Apple, is the one who is keeping us from getting our TiVoToGo. I don't know how much stock I can put in *corjulo*'s anonymous, unsubstantiated, second-hand post, though.

<broad, possibly incorrect assumptions posted as if they were fact>
*Jduksta*'s post (quoted above) I think hammers home the reality I've been trying to show for the last three weeks -- TiVo has sold out to Microsoft for exclusive rights, either temporarily or permanently. Much like Bungie was bought by Microsoft simply to steal Halo from Mac users and provide the "killer app" for XBox, Microsoft and our favorite DVR company has a partnership here to keep Mac users from using a service that is supposed to be included with TiVo. We know that it *used* to work for Mac, we know that Gates has gloated about his partnership with TiVo, and we know that TiVo *refuses* to give us any idea to when we will be supported. We also know now, from someone whom I assume has enough background to know what he's talking about, that there's nothing extravagantly hard about making this work for the Mac. What are we supposed to think, TiVo? There's really no precedent for this sort of "whenever we get around to it" timeline, except for vaporware... and so far Mac TTG is following that pattern perfectly.
</broad, possibly incorrect assumptions posted as if they were fact>

For sure, though, Rendezvous is still present in 7.1, just like all builds since HMO was released.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *Originally posted by jduksta
> All TiVo needs to do is release a codec for quicktime*.
> 
> * developer.apple.com/documentation/QuickTime/RM/CompressDecompress/CodecComponents/rmCodecComp/chapter_1_section_1.html*


Speaking as someone who's written a few QuickTime components (codecs and the like) over the years, they most likely wouldn't want to write a codec component. They'd need to write a movie import component to parse the .tivo format and build a QuickTime movie, and then, most likely, they'd write a media handler to actually do the decrypt. They'd want to do what they do on the Windows side and reuse the Apple MPEG-2 codec to do the decompress (it's heavily optimized already, works, and, unlike on the Windows side, would for nearly all people be the only codec to use and not suffer the compatibility issues you run into with DirectShow.)

What they very well _might_ need support from Apple for would be blocking apps upstream from their components from doing things they don't want done (like easy transcoding to unprotected formats, for example -- the DRM stuff, a la FairPlay.) The support for this must be somewhere in QuickTime, since FairPlay uses it, but I don't know how public the APIs are (never had reason to play with them myself.) For most things like this, it'd just be a regular developer tech support incident. But with DRM involved, who knows?

I'd agree that it's not _likely_ that they need something from Apple that Apple isn't being forthcoming with, but it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility, either.


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## anazoal

> _Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson _
> *What they very well might need support from Apple for would be blocking apps upstream from their components from doing things they don't want done (like easy transcoding to unprotected formats, for example -- the DRM stuff, a la FairPlay.) The support for this must be somewhere in QuickTime, since FairPlay uses it, but I don't know how public the APIs are (never had reason to play with them myself.) For most things like this, it'd just be a regular developer tech support incident. But with DRM involved, who knows?
> *


I agree, but that is not what's happening now with TiVo's DRM implementation on Windows, since any application can manipulate the video stream once it's been decoded by the Tivo DirectShow filter. Why aim for perfection on the Mac version of TiVo Desktop, when the Windows DRM is flawed?


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## SavMan

> _Originally posted by anazoal _
> *I agree, but that is not what's happening now with TiVo's DRM implementation on Windows, since any application can manipulate the video stream once it's been decoded by the Tivo DirectShow filter. Why aim for perfection on the Mac version of TiVo Desktop, when the Windows DRM is flawed? *


Yes... why oh why could the MICROSOFT version be up and running, despite the fact that it is crippled, when the Mac version is literally NOWHERE to be found? Back room deals, perhaps? If TiVo had any plans to make this, they'd give us a timeline. Yes, I don't care... make up a date -- then stick to it. It's not hard, TiVo is the only company I've ever heard of who couldn't figure that out. This is getting ridiculous.


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## mattman

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *Yes... why oh why could the MICROSOFT version be up and running, despite the fact that it is crippled, when the Mac version is literally NOWHERE to be found? Back room deals, perhaps? If TiVo had any plans to make this, they'd give us a timeline. Yes, I don't care... make up a date -- then stick to it. It's not hard, TiVo is the only company I've ever heard of who couldn't figure that out. This is getting ridiculous. *


That's overly harsh. I'm disappointed and frustrated that TiVo has not announced any firm date, or even a WAG about when TTG for Mac will be out, but I understand that they are working on it and it will take time.

It doesn't take much to figure out why it was out for Windows first. Marketshare, it simply makes more sense to devote the resources to that project first, no need for conspiracy theorys. I only use Macs, so it's not a backhanded swipe at Macs, just a recognition of reality.

As far as having to wait, there are SO many examples of hardware delays, software delays, movie delays, book delays from promised dates, that in my mind TiVo doesn't really stand out, other than the amount of complaining I see about it, and in reality, that's mostly because I read these forums.

I appreciate your frustration, and share it, but I think that it's really not all that different from what we see every day.

Matt


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## Dennis Wilkinson

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *make up a date -- then stick to it. It's not hard... *


Er, what? Invent a date, then... what? Ship whatever you have?

Everyone is assuming that because they're unwilling to provide a date, that they don't have a target date. That's a pretty big assumption, and more than a little unrealistic. It may be simply that they're not announcing a date because _they don't want to_ (and with all the vitriol flying around this community lately I can't say I'd blame them.) More likely, they've got a third party requirement (possibly Apple, maybe someone else) and they're not willing to commit to a date publicly without being in control of the 3rd party's schedule. But I'd be very, very surprised if they didn't internally have at least a fairly narrow ballpark date when their own code would be ready.

I'm a Mac user, and have been for just about as long as there have been Macs to use. I want to see TTG support for my Mac soon myself. I was disappointed to see that it wasn't ready day one, like HMO support was. But I also understand that, even with Mac users representing a larger part of TiVo's user base than we make up in the computer market as a whole, we're still by far the minority platform, and _that_ is why the Windows version was TiVo's priority.


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## mattman

And, as usual, Dennis has said what I wanted to far more eloquently than I did.....


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## SavMan

> _Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson _
> *Er, what? Invent a date, then... what? Ship whatever you have? *


No, then stick to it. Everyone else in the world has to work on a deadline, so I don't see why TiVo can't. If you make a movie, you tell people a planned release date, at least giving a quarter and year prediction for when it comes out. Even if you miss that (like, say, Titanic), at least people have a ballpark estimate as to when they can see the movie. Windows software does the same thing, the release date for Longhorn keeps getting pushed further back, but at least we know it's not vaporware because they have a date for release.

*



Everyone is assuming that because they're unwilling to provide a date, that they don't have a target date. That's a pretty big assumption, and more than a little unrealistic. It may be simply that they're not announcing a date because they don't want to (and with all the vitriol flying around this community lately I can't say I'd blame them.)

Click to expand...

*Really, now. "They don't want to?" Is TiVo a petulant child? That would be your excuse to TiVo customers... "we could set a date if we wanted to, but we don't. So there. But seriously, we ARE working on it." If TiVo hasn't released a date for TTGMac becuase they just don't want to, then TiVo is in some SERIOUS trouble, management-wise.

*



More likely, they've got a third party requirement (possibly Apple, maybe someone else) and they're not willing to commit to a date publicly without being in control of the 3rd party's schedule. But I'd be very, very surprised if they didn't internally have at least a fairly narrow ballpark date when their own code would be ready.

Click to expand...

*It is possible that TiVo has some sort of restriction, however unlikely. But if they have a "fairly narrow ballpark date," then they should give it to us. You don't win customers by hiding information from them. I had no problem with TTG being late. They gave a date, they missed it. Regardless, for the simple fact that they tried to commit to a date told me they are in fact working on it. To me, and many other Mac users, TTG is just vaporware... simply because TiVo can't commit to a date, even if it is nebulous. If they can't commit to saying "2005," that tells me that they have no real plans to release it within the year. Once again, "working on it," is not an excuse.

You can apologize for TiVo all you want. I'm not an apologist, I'm a loyal consumer. But TiVo is seriously straining its relationship with its Mac user base, and I want some damn info. Is that so much for which to ask?


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## Dennis Wilkinson

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *No, then stick to it. Everyone else in the world has to work on a deadline, so I don't see why TiVo can't. If you make a movie, you tell people a planned release date, at least giving a quarter and year prediction for when it comes out. Even if you miss that (like, say, Titanic), at least people have a ballpark estimate as to when they can see the movie. Windows software does the same thing, the release date for Longhorn keeps getting pushed further back, but at least we know it's not vaporware because they have a date for release.*


So, you'd rather have a meaningless date? One that will change whenever the need arises? As I said, you need look no further than the ranting here about the TiVoToGo date being missed to see why TiVo may not think that's a great idea. You may not have had a problem with it, but it seems a lot of people did.

I develop software. If you "set a date, and stick to it" either your feature set suffers or your stability does.



> *
> Really, now. "They don't want to?" Is TiVo a petulant child? That would be your excuse to TiVo customers... "we could set a date if we wanted to, but we don't. So there. But seriously, we ARE working on it." If TiVo hasn't released a date for TTGMac becuase they just don't want to, then TiVo is in some SERIOUS trouble, management-wise.*


There are plenty of reasons that a business would choose not to announce a date publicly even when they have a very solid one internally. Thus: "we are working on it, but have no date to announce." Some companies even have policies against announcing specific dates, and in some cases (although probably not in this one) SEC regulations about forward looking statements apply. It's not an issue of petulance.



> *You can apologize for TiVo all you want. I'm not an apologist, I'm a loyal consumer. But TiVo is seriously straining its relationship with its Mac user base, and I want some damn info. Is that so much for which to ask? *


You've asked, they've answered. You didn't like the answer, and have every right to be disappointed. If you think I'm apologizing for them, fine (although I'm just trying to lend some insight as to why their answer is what it is -- I don't have to like an answer to understand it.) But at this point, the exercise is called "beating a dead horse."


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## cwoody222

I wish the Mac version had a date. But it doesn't.

I also don't see the situation being much better by picking a date and then pushing it back again and again.

Longhorn is just as much vaporware as Mac TiVoToGo since Longhorn surely has no date set in stone.

It took them a full darn year for the Windows version. That's crazy. Obviously they're not able to turn this stuff around quickly. If the Mac version was a few weeks away they probably could give us a ballpark.

But I think it's more likely as far away as the Windows version was in Jan 2004... a year. It's pretty pointless to give someone a date that far away so why bother.

Being told "it'll be ready in 2006" makes me feel very only marginally better than hearing "we're working on it, it'll be ready when it's ready".


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## SavMan

> _Originally posted by cwoody222 _
> *I wish the Mac version had a date. But it doesn't.
> 
> I also don't see the situation being much better by picking a date and then pushing it back again and again.
> 
> Longhorn is just as much vaporware as Mac TiVoToGo since Longhorn surely has no date set in stone.*


No, no one believes that Microsoft is, in fact, not working on an update at all. They release screenshots, give updates, reprise the release date. These are all steps that show progress... and also prove to us that there *is* a plan to release the software. We get no such picture from TiVo. We saw Windows and Mac versions in parity a year ago at CES... today we have absolutely nothing for Mac, and a full release for PC. The point isn't that I know my version is coming out next week, next year, third quarter 2005, whatever -- it's that I have proof that they are even considering releasing this software. Right now, all we have is a "good faith" statement, which considering TiVo's practices as of late, I can't particularly trust.
*



It took them a full darn year for the Windows version. That's crazy. Obviously they're not able to turn this stuff around quickly. If the Mac version was a few weeks away they probably could give us a ballpark.

Click to expand...

*If a Mac version was a few weeks away, they could give us an exact figure. The lack of info entirely points closer to "never." Besides, I'm quite sure that the delay was mostly due to the TiVo hardware and software needing work, not the Windows OS. Though we do know somewhere in that time period, the program stopped being dual-platform with USB dongles, and started being Windows-only with a Microsoft partnership. Once again, draw your own conclusions.
*



But I think it's more likely as far away as the Windows version was in Jan 2004... a year. It's pretty pointless to give someone a date that far away so why bother.

Click to expand...

*Maybe it's pointless to you, but not to most of us. We pay money every month (or in a huge chunk) to pay for service, research, development, and support. Right now, 20% of us are getting limited service and support. If you ask me, I think we're getting limited development, but that's just speculation. The facts are this: we pay the same for TiVo service as PC users, TiVo To Go was a selling point for the last several months online and in retail stores, and still we have nothing. I want to know NOW if I'm going to be considered a second-class citizen to this company. TiVo used to understand how to take care of all of its customers, but it seems like they're starting to shy away from that.

I pay a premium for TiVo service and equipment... for its interface and its integration into my home. TimeWarner, ComCast, and Dish all give away _free_ boxes for a lesser monthly fee than TiVo (and have dual tuners, and they upgrade your hardware, and they don't need IR blasters, and they don't convert D/A/D/A again...). I expect to be getting my money's worth with this service, and if this is a harbinger of things to come, I want to get off sooner than later. Like I said, I'm a loyal customer, but "fool me once," etc.
*



Being told "it'll be ready in 2006" makes me feel very only marginally better than hearing "we're working on it, it'll be ready when it's ready".

Click to expand...

*And for me and countless others, it makes us feel MUCH better. When TiVo announces a date, that means they have accountability. TiVo announces "AAC support is coming, someday..." it never comes, they tell us now they have no plans including it anymore. Small uproar among Mac users, but that's about it.

TiVo announces TiVoToGo, AND posts a date. When they are late with this one, the pressure gets put on. They are ACCOUNTABLE for what they promised. When a company like TiVo declines to post a date, that means they simply have no confidence they can deliver... and that doesn't bode well for TiVo if they are going to chicken out like this.


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## mdscott

Mac users should be very familiar with computer companies not posting dates related to unreleased products. In fact some companies go so far as to sue people who post that information regarding their products...

mds


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## SavMan

> _Originally posted by mdscott _
> *Mac users should be very familiar with computer companies not posting dates related to unreleased products. In fact some companies go so far as to sue people who post that information regarding their products...
> 
> mds  *


Cute. There's a world of difference between TiVo giving us a ballpark estimate of when they might someday release a Mac version of a program announced over a year ago and a website soliciting Apple employees to violate NDAs and disclose trade secrets. Furthermore, Apple is forced to sue, just as they are forced to sue anyone who uses their trademarks.

What sort of precedent are you thinking of, *mdscott*? I can't think of many products that fit the circumstances here.

Remember: 
 it was intimated that the release would be simultaneous, over a year ago.
 in the meantime, the company in question has partnered with a competing corporation with serious anti-trust violations and a tendency to try to crush the competition through backroom deals, intimidation, and illegal activities.
 when a release comes, it is for the competing corporation's operating system only, using proprietary technology.
 development for release for the other corp's platform is mentioned, but no date is set, no progress given, no questions answered, and no promise is given. Nothing.

I'd like to know if this is common, like you say. I haven't ever seen this before, except for vaporware. Even with Halo, they told us it would be several years before a PC/Mac version was released, and that came from Microsoft! TiVo needs to respond to a large portion of their users who don't enjoy paying the same amount of money for half the functionality. TiVo has always been responsible with their Mac users in the past... what happened? Is it so damn much to get a freaking quarter prediction of when this will be done? Or are they just going to string us along so they can max out the profit they get from us before we leave in frustration?


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## Dennis Wilkinson

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *What sort of precedent are you thinking of, mdscott? I can't think of many products that fit the circumstances here.*


The precedent is Apple, which doesn't announce dates until things are already being manufactured. In fact, it doesn't even tell you what it's working on in most cases, major OS releases excluded. I don't think he was trying to equate not providing a release date with threatening the rumormongering sites.



> * it was intimated that the release would be simultaneous, over a year ago.*


Not by anyone from TiVo, by any account I've seen. In fact, they were pretty clear to point out that they didn't expect Mac support to be available at release time. Some people here, myself included, took the fact that they said the same thing about HMO and the fact that they demoed a Mac build of TTG at a trade show and speculated that it just might be ready, and we were wrong. But I certainly don't recall anyone from TiVo intimating anything.



> * in the meantime, the company in question has partnered with a competing corporation with serious anti-trust violations and a tendency to try to crush the competition through backroom deals, intimidation, and illegal activities.*


Microsoft has lots of partners.



> * when a release comes, it is for the competing corporation's operating system only, using proprietary technology.*


Tell me how they would have released this without using proprietary technology. Really, this smacks of paranoia.



> * development for release for the other corp's platform is mentioned, but no date is set, no progress given, no questions answered, and no promise is given. Nothing.*


Lots of companies, including Apple, decline any and all comment on unreleased products.



> *TiVo has always been responsible with their Mac users in the past... what happened? Is it so damn much to get a freaking quarter prediction of when this will be done? Or are they just going to string us along so they can max out the profit they get from us before we leave in frustration? *


Your entire argument is based on the assumption, a *very* big assumption, that simply because they have provided no speculative release date that they are in fact never planning on providing TTG for the Mac. I'll grant that it's not impossible, but that's still a pretty big leap. They have said they were working on it, and don't choose to provide a date, for some reason known only to TiVo. One of the possibilities is that they are lying to us, but there are a lot of other possible explanations that have been discussed here that still see TTG for Mac being delivered to us.

The horse is dead. I'm done beating it.


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## timg

I think a lot of the frustration over this issue stems from the wording Tivo used...

To me, there is a giant difference between "we are working on ways to enable playback on Mac" and "we will be releasing a Mac version". So far, they have not made any comments that could be interpreted to mean that they *will* release a Mac version. They might be planning on a Mac version, and have every intention of delivering one, but they have stopped well short of any committment to one.


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## tonyf3

Big assumptions, dead horses, non-committments, major frustrations. Not good. No matter how you slice it. Not good for Tivo, not good for it's Mac users. 

Dennis, thanks for the in-depth analysis.


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## tonyf3

Oh...and it's Day 21. Still waiting for 7.1


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## tonyf3

Hey TiVo!, How's the "we're working on that" coming. The Mac Users are still waiting. No 7.1 either yet for me anyway.


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## tonyf3

Anyone see this TiVo like, Google TV thing.
http://www.forbes.com/2005/01/25/0125autofacescan02.html?partner=rss

Interesting. Maybe someday the Mac Mini might sprout RCA out ports or something suitable. Add a GUI and you use this to get your guide data. hmmm.


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## SavMan

> _Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson _
> *The precedent is Apple, which doesn't announce dates until things are already being manufactured. In fact, it doesn't even tell you what it's working on in most cases, major OS releases excluded. I don't think he was trying to equate not providing a release date with threatening the rumormongering sites.*



Ahh, no. First of all, you are talking about Apple's HARDWARE division. You are talking about them not telling people that they are releasing a faster iMac in three weeks, in order that people will still buy the models in channel. This has nothing to do with the software we are talking about. It's a misleading and inappropriate analogy.
*



Not by anyone from TiVo, by any account I've seen. In fact, they were pretty clear to point out that they didn't expect Mac support to be available at release time. Some people here, myself included, took the fact that they said the same thing about HMO and the fact that they demoed a Mac build of TTG at a trade show and speculated that it just might be ready, and we were wrong. But I certainly don't recall anyone from TiVo intimating anything.

Click to expand...

*Absolute crap, Dennis. The sheer fact that TTG was shown in complete parity across platforms an entire year ago is, by definition, intimating that there would be a Mac version. And NO ONE said that Mac support wouldn't be or wasn't expected to be available right away. TiVo told us nothing about it, just showed it to us on a Mac and a PC at the last CES, then promised it by year's end. If you are standing RIGHT IN FRONT OF A MAC running TiVoToGo, and you say TTG will be out by a certain date, you are intimating that the Mac version will be there too. Don't split hairs on this, it doesn't help your argument. 
*



Microsoft has lots of partners.

Click to expand...

*And so does North Korea. That doesn't really mean a damn thing, does it? If you're going to be flippant, at least have a logical point. No one can argue that Microsoft isn't one of the best companies at stifling competition and removing choice from the market. For Microsoft to sign a partnership half-way through the development of a technology that was shown to be working on a Mac previously, and then have the technology debut with only a Windows version and no Mac version in sight should give anyone pause. If you choose to be naive about it, that's your prerogative... you already have TiVo Desktop v.2.0.
*



Tell me how they would have released this without using proprietary technology. Really, this smacks of paranoia.

Click to expand...

*You are telling me the only way to decrypt a file is by using a Windows-only decryption scheme? Seriously, you are smarter than this. You may not like what I am saying, but your arguments are specious at best.

And here's why I'm not paranoid: Quicktime is the industry-standard for digital video. It's what most cameras record in, it's what more websites stream in, it's the basis for MPEG-4, for pete's sake! Why then, are the .tivo files only playable through WMP? Quicktime for Windows has been around for years, it would mean cross-platform coding, yet still it's only available through the Windows Media PLayer. It's a crappy media player by any standard, yet it's what TiVo chose. Partnerships usually mean that money has exchanged hands... I see no reason to believe that TiVo hasn't been bribed into keeping this off of the Mac for a couple months, maybe a year... or ever.
*



Lots of companies, including Apple, decline any and all comment on unreleased products.

Click to expand...

*See above. When it comes to software, Apple is very forthcoming. And besides, this is another inappropriate analogy. TiVo did not refuse to comment on an unreleased product, they told us they were working on making playback work... then when we asked for any sort of timeline (which Apple tells us all the time) we got rude responses. I mean, how dare we want to know if we'll be left behind after supporting this company!
*



Your entire argument is based on the assumption, a very big assumption, that simply because they have provided no speculative release date that they are in fact never planning on providing TTG for the Mac. I'll grant that it's not impossible, but that's still a pretty big leap. They have said they were working on it, and don't choose to provide a date, for some reason known only to TiVo. One of the possibilities is that they are lying to us, but there are a lot of other possible explanations that have been discussed here that still see TTG for Mac being delivered to us.

Click to expand...

*I know it's a big assumption... but Occam's Razor is in effect here. The most likely reason for TiVo having no Mac version now is that they will never have one (or they will have one a year from now, after the bribe from MS runs out). Moreover, there have been no good reasons given at all why this version doesn't exist. "There aren't as many Mac users," is nothing but an excuse, and one that is true will lead me to dump this company like yesterday's garbage. Excuses aren't reasons. If TiVo has a reason, let them tell us now. If they have proof, a show of good faith, that they are actually working on this probable vaporware, then let them show us. Otherwise, there has been not ONE good reason to believe TiVo's carefully worded statement.
*



The horse is dead. I'm done beating it.

Click to expand...

*Once again, easy for you to proclaim the horse dead -- you have to program already. But I guess I'm old-school (for a 21 year old, anyway). I just thought that corporations were still trying to please their investors and customers. And by locking out a large number of their core users, TiVo is showing the opposite.

So, if you are done, just frickin' leave, no one forced you to post here. But as long as TiVo is checking this board, (and they do, of course. The independence of this website from TiVo, inc is a well-known joke on this board.) I will continue to air and discuss our grievances. That's why this BBS exists. We Mac users expect a lot from our products, it comes from being spoiled by Apple for so many years. TiVo used to be a company like Apple that understood this. We are beginning to see the breakdown of that trait.


----------



## themacjedi

I agree with SavMan.

Does anyone here have any connections with someone like Kevin Rose (The Screen Savers) so he could use their show to put some pressure on TiVo for us Mac users. Companies hate bad publicity.

Kevin if you're listening we need somebody on TV to point out how disgruntled all of us Mac using TiVo owners are.

I was excited when I saw that I received a TiVo newsletter today because of what they say about Macs and TiVoToGo.
http://www.tivo.com/4.9.19.3.asp#4
I guess they didn't mean this newsletter.


----------



## LeberMac

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *I was about to pay the lifetime fee for mine. I'm holding off now. *


Not going to pay lifetime fee here, either.

I actually logged on today specifically TO pay my lifetime fee AND to download the "TiVo to Go" feature. I dont often check the TiVo site, being merely the casual TiVo user, using it a fair amount and enjoying the limited functionality of my "NON-AAC capable" Tivo Music & Photos service.

I was SHOCKED (Yes, SHOCKED I tell you!) to find that the TiVotoGo would not work on my Mac, and that there are apparently no plans from TiVo to make one. (Or at least no denial of their apparent lack of ambition TO make one.)

I can remember filling out the loooong questionaire from TiVo about a year ago, asking me about what features I would want in any "networkable, DVD-recordable" functionality. That questionaire apparently molded their thinking on this issue. I must not have been forceful enough in my "Make it work with iMovie and iDVD" suggestions.

Seriously, what can the hangup be? After perusing the lists on this messageboard, it is apparent that a bunch of amateurs/semipros can find a way to make this work while going through VirtualPC. Which means that AT LEAST TiVo COULD theoretically make a conduit that would allow functionality with iMovie and iDVD. I'm sure that Apple and TiVo could agree on a simple DRM codec that would work well enough, just like iTunes. I therefore posit that either
a) TiVo does not have the proper employees with programming knowledge/skills to accomplish this... or...
b) TiVo cannot find or will not hire programming consultants with the knowledge to accomplish this... or...
c) TiVo does not care about its Mac user base (Out of ignorance, spite, or budgetary necessity)

I know several UNIX folks who have begged me to let them hack my TiVo ever since I bought it 2 years ago. I have always refused, thinking that there was no functionality that they could provide me with that was worth the disabling of my Series 2 DVR. Now I think I will let them experiment. The first thing to go will be my $12.95 monthly fee. I hear that there are other "free" services that will accomplish the same thing.

Oh, and I think the real answer to my question is "c". I'm pissed!


----------



## LeberMac

Since this is merely my second post, does anyone know whether ANYONE from TiVo ever reads these posts? A couple of "experts" from TiVo would certainly help. Even though this is not the "official" TiVo chat board.


----------



## cwoody222

Yes, TiVo reads these posts.

They've already stated all they will / care to share about a Mac version here on these boards, though.


----------



## LeberMac

Well, cwoody2222, then I am even more convinced that they care little what I post here.
Now I'm sure my answer is "c".


----------



## cwoody222

They care (that's not to say I 100% a Mac version is around the corner... if ever). They just have no new details to share at this point.


----------



## LeberMac

> _Originally posted by corjulo _
> *Hey
> Tivo Bill. As a stock holder I think your attitude kinda SUCKS. It's bad enough how much money I've lost last year because Tivo was being run by idiots. Now I've got to listen to you insult people. At the very least we want an engineer, familiar with the Apple software, to give us an update. Is that all that hard? No date, just the nuts and bolt of what is done and needs to be done. *


Seems poor TiVo Bill has taken a beating in this thread. I agree, perhaps one of the engineers/programmers from TiVo would be welcome in this thread.

Or, judging from the pace of this project, *the* engineer/programmer?

<that was a joke, joking guys.. ha ha..>

Someone who can perhaps enlighten us to the source of the problem? I'm sure there are plenty of talented people reading this thread who would like to make a Mac version of TiVotoGo.
I'll help any way I can but I'm talking from the media side not the engineering side... 
-- 
LeberMac


----------



## LeberMac

> _Originally posted by cwoody222 _
> *Yes, TiVo reads these posts.
> They've already stated all they will / care to share about a Mac version here on these boards, though. *


I think all these people want is SOME kind of affirmation that "Yes, yes we know we are very late releasing it but we ARE working on a Mac version, we value our loyal Mac users, etc. etc."
Coming from someone of importance (Like the V.P. of Marketing/Public Relations or perhaps someone above him, like the janitorial staff) this short little missive would probably quell the unrest.
--
LeberMac
(BTW before you get all antsy, *I'm* in marketing/PR...and used to be a janitor...)


----------



## sayonaraML

I know that might sound overly harsh but after making my way through 16 some odd pages of posts, I think that the Mac folk ( me included) have a right to their anger here. And while Bill and some others probably posted with the best intentions in the world (as individuals), the corporate line here is painful. Yes we're working on a program, no we don't know for sure if it will ever see the light of day and if you think we're going to give you a timeline based on that house of hay, you've got to be crazy...
So how exactly happy and patient do you Tivo apologists want us to be? I got the system upgrade and it does me no good at all. I'm paying good money to a company (that's called support) that has all sorts of security concerns but instead releases a program that only works with a leaking sieve of a media player with a whole host of security issues of its own.
Let me address the whole paranoia thing while I'm at it...Is the direction away from Tivo by DirectTV of financial consequence to Tivo? Is the failed deal with Comcast in the same financial ballpark? What better way to tide oneself over financially then a deal with Uncle Bill? A bucket of bread with the only stipulation being no support for OSX (or Linux or Unix) seems to be a win/win deal for both Tivo and Microsoft and hey, you're only excluding a very small percentage of market share.
While its true that Mac market share is pretty small globally, I think it would have to be higher among Tivo users judging from the posts. To release an advance product such as TivoToGo and exclude a significant number of users AND give the mother of all lame responses to requests for more information invites and justifies all of the anger I've seen in this thread. And Cwoody and Bill who are probably great and helpful guys with the best intentions...well, see above, should be more understanding of the paying customer.
Peace.


----------



## rog

i almost hate to post some constructive material in this thread, jeez... calm down boys. 

but i will anyway. have you mac users not heard of JavaHMO? it's a java-based app that supports HMO, and very recently TTG. it is available for windows, linux, and *mac os x.* i haven't installed it on my iBook yet, but i've seen this running on a friend's linux machine and this software rocks! it's actually got one up on the real TiVo Desktop software for windows: it can display web pages, weather, stock quotes, and more on the TiVo in addition to the normal photos/music. plus the new beta version supports TTG.

http://javahmo.sourceforge.net/index.html

have fun! if you try it out, let me know how the mac TTG functionality works. i still don't have my 7.1 firmware, so i can't test it yet.

_[note: the software linked to above does not circumvent any of the DRM included in TTG, but rather it is based on the TiVo source code and preserves the MAK. this is my understanding, but if the mods disagree, i hope they will let me know.]_


----------



## SavMan

> _Originally posted by rog _
> *i almost hate to post some constructive material in this thread, jeez... calm down boys. *


If there was anything more constructive than what we have done here, it would already be posted.
*



but i will anyway. have you mac users not heard of JavaHMO? it's a java-based app that supports HMO, and very recently TTG. it is available for windows, linux, and mac os x. i haven't installed it on my iBook yet, but i've seen this running on a friend's linux machine and this software rocks! it's actually got one up on the real TiVo Desktop software for windows: it can display web pages, weather, stock quotes, and more on the TiVo in addition to the normal photos/music. plus the new beta version supports TTG.

Click to expand...

*Yes, we all know about JavaHMO. It is not new by any means. And yes, the beta version supports TTG.
*



have fun! if you try it out, let me know how the mac TTG functionality works. i still don't have my 7.1 firmware, so i can't test it yet.

Click to expand...

*Do you really think we'd have seven pages of posts on this board if it was simply solved by a buggy HMO program? The TTG "function" of JavaHMO just allows you to download the file off of the TiVo, something anyone could do with a web browser anyway. Only TiVo (through their deal with Microsoft) can release the software that can allow the .tivo file to be decoded for replay... which of course you would know if you could read your own words at the end of the post:
*



[note: the software linked to above does not circumvent any of the DRM included in TTG, but rather it is based on the TiVo source code and preserves the MAK. this is my understanding, but if the mods disagree, i hope they will let me know.]

Click to expand...

*I appreciate you stopping by, but if you're going to be smug about this, at least have SOME idea what you are talking about.


----------



## rog

wow. really, i was only trying to help, and i was definitely not trying to be "smug". 

i clearly said i had not tested the mac TTG functionality.



> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> The TTG "function" of JavaHMO just allows you to download the file off of the TiVo, something anyone could do with a web browser anyway. Only TiVo (through their deal with Microsoft) can release the software that can allow the .tivo file to be decoded for replay... which of course you would know if you could read your own words at the end of the post.


regarding my statements at the end of the post: i was assuming that JavaHMO worked off of the TTG source code, in order to actually extract and decode the .tivo files, while maintaining the MAK-based encryption. i figured it would ask for the MAK, and then decrypt the file. i was apparently way over-optimistic, and i stand corrected.


----------



## SavMan

> *i almost hate to post some constructive material in this thread, jeez... calm down boys.
> 
> but i will anyway. have you mac users not heard of JavaHMO?*


Can't get much more smug than that, buddy. You swooped in, assumed we were all idiots who had never heard of JavaHMO, then proceeded to claim it would fix all of our problems despite never having used it. Smug.


----------



## themacjedi

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *Can't get much more smug than that, buddy. You swooped in, assumed we were all idiots who had never heard of JavaHMO, then proceeded to claim it would fix all of our problems despite never having used it. Smug. *


[LOL], sorry rog but SavMan is right and funny at the same time. [/LOL]


----------



## rog

yeah, he's really hilarious... omg i can't stop laughing... he called someone smug... omg that's soo funny.

apparently the purpose of this thread is to whine and moan about the lack of mac support, and not to talk about anything that might be helpful. so i'm on my way. have fun.


----------



## themacjedi

> _Originally posted by rog _
> *yeah, he's really hilarious... omg i can't stop laughing... he called someone smug... omg that's soo funny.
> 
> apparently the purpose of this thread is to whine and moan about the lack of mac support, and not to talk about anything that might be helpful. so i'm on my way. have fun. *


No wait, rog, don't go away mad, just go away.

Seriously, we have talked about everything here and now this thread is just growing from pointless posts like your last one and this one. We want TiVo to step up and until they do there won't be anymore useful info to contribute, cause we've already heard it all.

If I remember correctly you're new here, so don't take this stuff personally, we are just tired of waiting.


----------



## futerfas

I'm not sure if this helps, but I did just notice that if you are using safari, in the bookmarks menu, click on Rendezvous and you can your DVR listed there.


----------



## themacjedi

> _Originally posted by futerfas _
> *I'm not sure if this helps, but I did just notice that if you are using safari, in the bookmarks menu, click on Rendezvous and you can your DVR listed there. *


I started a separate thread about that a week ago, it doesn't really help. But thanks anyway.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218305


----------



## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by rog _
> *i almost hate to post some constructive material in this thread, jeez... calm down boys.
> 
> but i will anyway. have you mac users not heard of JavaHMO? it's a java-based app that supports HMO, and very recently TTG. it is available for windows, linux, and mac os x. i haven't installed it on my iBook yet, but i've seen this running on a friend's linux machine and this software rocks! it's actually got one up on the real TiVo Desktop software for windows: it can display web pages, weather, stock quotes, and more on the TiVo in addition to the normal photos/music. plus the new beta version supports TTG.
> 
> http://javahmo.sourceforge.net/index.html
> 
> have fun! if you try it out, let me know how the mac TTG functionality works. i still don't have my 7.1 firmware, so i can't test it yet.
> 
> [note: the software linked to above does not circumvent any of the DRM included in TTG, but rather it is based on the TiVo source code and preserves the MAK. this is my understanding, but if the mods disagree, i hope they will let me know.] *


Downloaded it last week. Can't use it because I'm still waiting for 7.1. Also can't play files it if I did because of what SavMan lists above.


----------



## SavMan

So, we've heard a little bit about the process involved with decoding the .tivo file -- anyone here smarter than me (should be plenty) want to let us know the basics behind it? Perhaps someone could do TiVo's job for them and help figure out a filtering mechanism like DirectShow to decode .tivo?

Anyone?

Bueller?

(sorry, it was on Comedy Central this morning)


----------



## tonyf3

Finally! I got 7.1 today. Downloaded a 1/2hr show using the web /ip interface. I now have a .tivo file that needs decoding. Now the fum begins.


----------



## themacjedi

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *Finally! I got 7.1 today. Downloaded a 1/2hr show using the web /ip interface. I now have a .tivo file that needs decoding. Now the fum begins. *


Girls just want to have FUM.


----------



## tonyf3

Hey, sorry it was dark. The backlighting was off on my Aluminum 15" keyboard. and now the FUN!
Begins.

Try Not...Do......Or Do...Not. 
Adventure....heh....excitment...heh...a Jedi craves not these things.


----------



## Unix_Beard

OK. My hard drive is filling up with .tivo files while eagerly anticipating Mac support.


----------



## scheckeNYK

Got my 7.x update today, but I can't access the menu via browser as described. Using 10.3.7 with Safari. Airport Extreme wireless network set to allow 802.11b only. 128 WEP encyrption w/a valid (obviously - or I wouldn't get the update) HEX password. Have restarted both my Mac and Tivo. Tried directly typing the URL and using the Rendezvous bookmarks method but nothing seems to work. If it matters, the Airport Extreme issues IP addresses in the 10.0.1.x fashion. Advice? Thanks in advance.


----------



## themacjedi

> _Originally posted by scheckeNYK _
> *Got my 7.x update today, but I can't access the menu via browser as described. Using 10.3.7 with Safari. Airport Extreme wireless network set to allow 802.11b only. 128 WEP encyrption w/a valid (obviously - or I wouldn't get the update) HEX password. Have restarted both my Mac and Tivo. Tried directly typing the URL and using the Rendezvous bookmarks method but nothing seems to work. Advice? Thanks in advance. *


Your Mac's built-in firewall could be causing the problem, or personal web sharing.


----------



## cwoody222

You may also want to try javaHMO. the newest beta offers Max OS X support for downloading shows. I personally can't get it to work, but others can. I can get my Safari to access my TiVo should so javaHMO not working isn't a problem for me.


----------



## scheckeNYK

thanks for the help guys, i turned personal file sharing off to no avail, and the firewall wasn't on to begin with. no such luck. attemping to download javahmo, but i'm skeptical...


----------



## mikeorind

Has anyone been able to get GraphEdit to run in Virtual PC. I'm using vpc 6.1 and Windows xp. Whenever I try to start GE, it fails.


----------



## themacjedi

> _Originally posted by scheckeNYK _
> *thanks for the help guys, i turned personal file sharing off to no avail, and the firewall wasn't on to begin with. no such luck. attemping to download javahmo, but i'm skeptical... *


Just in case you you're mistaken, I said Personal Web Sharing (which uses port 80) not Personal File Sharing.

Restart your TiVo, see it shows up in Safari when clicking the Rendezvous bookmark.


----------



## scheckeNYK

I did miscorrectly read your message Jedi. Consquently, both were turned off. After rebooting both the mac and tivo, still no access. Is there anything that should be enabled in Sharing in Sys Prefs?


----------



## themacjedi

> _Originally posted by scheckeNYK _
> *I did miscorrectly read your message Jedi. Consquently, both were turned off. After rebooting both the mac and tivo, still no access. Is there anything that should be enabled in Sharing in Sys Prefs? *


Does it show up in Safari, click the link to understand what I mean.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218305

If it doesn't show up you might have a network problem not a Mac problem.


----------



## scheckeNYK

"No Rendezvous Websites Available" Perhaps there is a larger network problem, as I am having trouble networking with a Windows coomputer and both sides are configged correctly...as far as I can tell. thanks for trying and if you think of something else please let me know.


----------



## futerfas

Try downloading rendezvous browser here and see if tivo shows up.


----------



## cwoody222

I was confused by that link the other day.

You have to select "Show all Bookmarks" under the Bookmarks menu. That's where you should see the TiVo under Rendezvous.

Alternatively you can click the Bookmarks button that's on the very left of the Bookmarks bar (but not all people use the bar).


----------



## scheckeNYK

Right, that's the path I took which gave me the "No Rendezvous Websites Available" designation.


----------



## Unix_Beard

I just type in

https://MY_TIVO_IP/nowplaying

And you need to use httpS not http


----------



## futerfas

Check to see if your MAK is available, if not, force a call, then it should work.


----------



## scheckeNYK

MAK is unavailable through the Tivo even after forcing a call, but I can get it from the website. Now I'm really confused!


----------



## futerfas

If the MAK is univaliable on the TiVo, you wont be able to get into the website.


----------



## greg_burns

> _Originally posted by Unix_Beard _
> *I just type in
> 
> https://MY_TIVO_IP/nowplaying
> 
> And you need to use httpS not http *


Try adding the /index.html.

It does not seem to default to that file...

Greg


----------



## scheckeNYK

MAK finally showed up after about 3 forced connections. Thanks futerfas!


----------



## tonyf3

Just tried VPC 6.0. Downloaded TiVo desktop 2.0. Installed it but VPC can't find my LAN. It's made up it's own IP address. On TiVo install it mentioned something about codecs. I'll hav eto go back and re-read previous posts on this again now that I have 7.1. Just trying work arounds till 2.0 for Mac comes out.


----------



## thehand

after the tivo goes throught the tivo desktop is the resulting file still encrypted?


----------



## mattman

Tony-

I'm not a VPC expert, but you'll need to look at how the networking is set up on the PC there. I believe there is a feature called the Virtual Switch, that may either be hindering, or need to be turned on to help. I just can't remember myself, sorry, but I hope this helps your "pc" see the LAN.

Matt


----------



## cwoody222

> _Originally posted by thehand _
> *after the tivo goes throught the tivo desktop is the resulting file still encrypted? *


Huh?

What does "after the tivo goes through the tivo desktop" mean?

In any event - the .tivo file is always encrypted. The only official way to decrypt it is to burn it to DVD and then rip it back onto your PC.


----------



## cwoody222

> _Originally posted by mattman _
> *Tony-
> 
> I'm not a VPC expert, but you'll need to look at how the networking is set up on the PC there. I believe there is a feature called the Virtual Switch, that may either be hindering, or need to be turned on to help. I just can't remember myself, sorry, but I hope this helps your "pc" see the LAN.
> 
> Matt *


I believe when you set up VPC there's an option to let the PC use your Mac's Internet connection or it's own. I've always told it to use the Mac's and I've never had a problem.

But I'm pretty sure my Router will still then assign my WindowsOS a separate IP address.

I'd check myself but I uninstalled my copy of VPC.


----------



## tonyf3

Thanks guys, I'll have to check out the setting on the virtual switch in VPC.
By the way: Speaking purely from a Design aesthetic, The GUI on the Windows TiVo Desktop 2.0 is somewhat uninspired.
I mean, the same guys who did the GUI on the TiVo itself couldn't have done this.
It doesn't even relate to what they've done previously. The user experience is part of what
makes a TiVo, a TiVo. Not just a piece of hardware that says tivo. I'm somewhat underwhelmed, but then again this is the windows version. The Mac version will most likely be more inspired.


----------



## tonyf3

Wait, now that I think of it there were the little column record status icons in both the web & windows version.
I guess it's just that windows look thats feels unwelcoming. I think if it's technically possible the GUI should look as close to what's on your TV as possible.

(sorry for the design diatribe)...Graphic Designers eyes.


----------



## cwoody222

I agree. I use a Mac but I did borrow a Windows laptop to try out TiVo Desktop 2.0.

The UI did not scream with the usability that I expect from my TiVo


----------



## LeberMac

> _Originally posted by rog _
> *i almost hate to post some constructive material in this thread, jeez... calm down boys.
> but i will anyway.
> <snip constructive material>
> if you try it out, let me know how the mac TTG functionality works. i still don't have my 7.1 firmware, so i can't test it yet.*


* 
When I get my firmware code I will try it out. I was *NOT* aware of this JavaHMO, and I thank you, rog, for the suggestion.
Any solution will be acceptable whilst I wait and twiddle my thumbs for the Mac OS X release of TivoToGo.
-- 
LeberMac*


----------



## cwoody222

keep twiddl'ing......


----------



## SavMan

> _Originally posted by LeberMac _
> *When I get my firmware code I will try it out. I was *NOT* aware of this JavaHMO, and I thank you, rog, for the suggestion.
> Any solution will be acceptable whilst I wait and twiddle my thumbs for the Mac OS X release of TivoToGo.*


See, this is why I reacted the way I did. *Rog* comes in, having read none of the thread (or any threads on JavaHMO) and implies we are all stupid for not using this program. Another thread newbie comes in and assumes that it is the solution he's been waiting for.

JavaHMO's TTG "feature" is USELESS. Until TiVo can get off their ass and release a decoder, or someone cracks it (most likely our only recourse), there will be no "solution."


----------



## LeberMac

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *See, this is why I reacted the way I did. Rog comes in, having read none of the thread (or any threads on JavaHMO) and implies we are all stupid for not using this program. Another thread newbie comes in and assumes that it is the solution he's been waiting for.
> JavaHMO's TTG "feature" is USELESS. Until TiVo can get off their ass and release a decoder, or someone cracks it (most likely our only recourse), there will be no "solution." *


Indeed it appears that I shall be twiddling my thumbs for a while. 
I can't say whether or not the solution will work since I do not have any kind of registration code yet. Which means I can't lay the smack down on SavMan if I can make this work. Or conversely I can't grab my torch and pitchfork and join him in his angry crusade if it STILL doesn't work.

I will say that I *AM* tired of being on the short end of product releases simply because I own a Mac. I'll never switch to PC (NEVEEER! <shakes fist>) and I am resigned to wait until TiVo releases something.

However, whilst I am waiting, I am reading up on creating my OWN media center that is basically an open-source version of TiVo (and tallying the costs...) Better hurry, programmers - 15% of your market might not be here when you get back to us!


----------



## LeberMac

Don't worry, guys: Jon's working on it:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11/22/dvd_jon_unlocks_itunes_locked/

If he can find a way to crack Apple's DRM, not too far away from cracking TiVo's.


----------



## SavMan

Trust me. I have two tivos updated now, I've been running JavaHMO for over a year, and the updated version is useless. All it does is download, (and sometimes, it can't even do that) not decode. You'll notice that nowhere on the entire web has anyone been able to play a .tivo file on the web, especially with JavaHMO -- so don't plan on laying the smack down anytime soon.


----------



## LeberMac

> _Originally posted by SavMan _
> *Trust me. I have two tivos updated now, I've been running JavaHMO for over a year, and the updated version is useless. All it does is download, (and sometimes, it can't even do that) not decode. You'll notice that nowhere on the entire web has anyone been able to play a .tivo file on the web, especially with JavaHMO -- so don't plan on laying the smack down anytime soon.  *


Then I'm sharpening my pitchfork, lookin for my lighter, and gettin on the next flight to Alviso, CA!


----------



## tonyf3

ffmegx
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/15473

We might get some help here. They've done TiVo type 1 files previously.

Also, did anyone see the HME Developer challenge.
HME is the code name for TiVo's powerful, open platform. HME allows developers to build exciting, new applications for broadband-connected TiVo Series2 using the Java programming language. Starting today, TiVo invites the developer community to download the HME SDK and get started with their own creative development. And to celebrate, we're sponsoring a contest called the TiVo Developer Challenge. Winners will be announced at the 2005 JavaOne conference in San Francisco.

My answers for some of the Categories.
Best Music Application: itunes!
Best Photo Application: iphoto!!

I don't get these guys. Do they want a third party to do the Mac version of TiVo desktop 2.0 ?

Still waiting.


----------



## tonyf3

One month and counting. We better not still be waiting on this come July's Macworld.


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## SavMan

I wish they'd just tell us they aren't going to make it. At least then I wouldn't have to wait for it.


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## rworne

> _Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson _
> * They'd want to do what they do on the Windows side and reuse the Apple MPEG-2 codec to do the decompress (it's heavily optimized already, works, and, unlike on the Windows side, would for nearly all people be the only codec to use and not suffer the compatibility issues you run into with DirectShow.) *


Just so everyone knows, this MPEG-2 component for Quicktime is not included with Quicktime (or Quicktime Pro). It's an additional purchase for $19.99 or so or comes free with DVD Studio Pro.

It's also a playback-only codec. You need DVD Studio Pro to get the MPEG-2 encoder. Last I checked DVDSP was about $999.

Yes, there are free solutions to the MPEG-2 codec, and a way to get iDVD to encode MPEG-2 for you. I just posted the official "Apple" solutions.

Still, something has to be done about the .tivo file decryption. I would think that would not be so much of an issue for TiVo to solve.

What would be neat is TiVo->iDVD integration, with a new theme for TiVo recordings. The problem is that iDVD leaves unencrypted MPEG-2 files lying around if you know where to look for them.


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## tonyf3

> _Originally posted by rworne _
> *Just so everyone knows, this MPEG-2 component for Quicktime is not included with Quicktime (or Quicktime Pro). It's an additional purchase for $19.99 or so or comes free with DVD Studio Pro.
> 
> It's also a playback-only codec. You need DVD Studio Pro to get the MPEG-2 encoder. Last I checked DVDSP was about $999.
> 
> Yes, there are free solutions to the MPEG-2 codec, and a way to get iDVD to encode MPEG-2 for you. I just posted the official "Apple" solutions.
> 
> Still, something has to be done about the .tivo file decryption. I would think that would not be so much of an issue for TiVo to solve.
> 
> What would be neat is TiVo->iDVD integration, with a new theme for TiVo recordings. The problem is that iDVD leaves unencrypted MPEG-2 files lying around if you know where to look for them. *


No mention of the Directshow DRM problem.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

The fact that the MPEG-2 component isn't included by default isn't really any different than the Windows side, for what it's worth (Windows doesn't include a MPEG-2 codec, and you have to choose from multiple third-party codecs to make TTG work there, with people having varying levels of success with different codecs.) Based on what the Windows folk are seeing, having just the Apple codec to deal with sounds like it would dramatically simplify things.

There isn't really any need for an MPEG-2 encoder, as all of the DVD burning software (certainly all of the commercial stuff) for the Mac includes such encoders, and you only need to reencode those resolutions that aren't in DVD-compliant form.

I'm not sure what the "DirectShow DRM problem" is -- it's TiVo's DRM in a DirectShow wrapper, which shouldn't pose any issues, you'd just need a QuickTime wrapper for the same DRM (and enough support in QuickTime that it'd be as, ahem, "secure" as the Windows version, which _may_ require QT7.) It's not as if this is Microsoft's new Windows Media 10-specific DRM we're talking about, it borders on a "how do I package this code" issue.


----------



## thehand

> _Originally posted by tonyf3 _
> *Just tried VPC 6.0. Downloaded TiVo desktop 2.0. Installed it but VPC can't find my LAN. It's made up it's own IP address. On TiVo install it mentioned something about codecs. I'll hav eto go back and re-read previous posts on this again now that I have 7.1. Just trying work arounds till 2.0 for Mac comes out. *


after switching network radio button to virtual switch instead of shared networking, my virtual pc (compliments of Virtual PC 7.0) now sees my DVR and lists it on the access control tab of the server properties panel of the server menu item with the name of the DVR and its ip address which is the same address listed in Tivo's read new messages & setup/settings/phone & network/phone & network set up/IP address:192....

currently downloading the file at the same speed as that other machine I have that runs Windows XP natively. that's funny because I get the full bandwith of 100 mbps on that other machine's ethernet, but on the virtual pc it only gets a percentage of that at 10mbps.

question: after the the tranfer as opposed to download <because the DVR is in the same room and I hope I'm directly accessing the DVR's hard drive without the internet between them> and it goes through processing of the Tivo Desktop, will I be able to manipulate this file my video tools? in other words after the file goes through the Tivo Desktop is it decrypted?


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## cwoody222

No, TiVo Desktop will not decrypt it at all.

There is no way to decrypt the file that can be discussed on these forums. Any way to decrypt it or play it inside of Virtual PC would be horrendously slow anyway.

There is no way to do anything w/ the encrpypted file on your Mac (without Virtual PC).

Sorry


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## drjlb

I am having what seems to be a unique problem. I can get to the webserver/nowplaying list, no problem. When I click download, I get a download that is .tivo. Problem is, it's only 4 kb in size. Since I can't open the .tivo file, I have no idea what it is. This happens with any program I try to download. The blue bar in the download manager always goes to completion, so it's not as if the download is timing out. The download is going to completion, it's just a really small file. I'm just trying to get a bunch of programs off my TiVo to free hd space. I'll worry about unscrambling them later.

Edit: more details


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## tonyf3

I'm about ready to request that my monthly service fee be credited until the Mac TiVo Togo is released. I'm on a supported box TiVo series 2. They had Mac support previously. I'm paying for services that windows users get and I don't so....IF it's being worked on and it's on it's way, it should not be a problem. If it's not being worked on, this will be an issue for them.


----------



## Quevar

Tivo has a survey up on their website. Tell them you are irritated about a lack of information about when the Mac version of TTG will be available. When enough people say something, then maybe they'll tell us something about it.

Here is a link to the survey:
TiVo survey

I filled it out saying that the reason I came to look today was "Other" with a filled in response saying: "To find out about a Macintosh version of TTG."


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## SavMan

I did it, though I wish I'd know it would do anything.


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## tonyf3

Quevar said:


> Tivo has a survey up on their website. Tell them you are irritated about a lack of information about when the Mac version of TTG will be available. When enough people say something, then maybe they'll tell us something about it.
> 
> Here is a link to the survey:
> TiVo survey
> 
> I filled it out saying that the reason I came to look today was "Other" with a filled in response saying: "To find out about a Macintosh version of TTG."


Filled it out, voiced our issues strongly on Mac support.
Anbody know who the new CEO is I'll write him too!


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## tonyf3

Why bother releasing 1.9 when what everyone is waiting for is 2.0 for Mac. I don't think all incremental updates have to be released. Do they? Let's go already.
TiVo Desktop for Mac v1.9 (236kb) Updated February 09, 2005. This update contains: a revised preferences mechanism, support for photo album heirarchies, a new plug-in API, and minor bug fixes. Music & Photos only.

So we gained what here?


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

tonyf3 said:


> ...support for photo album heirarchies...
> 
> So we gained what here?


Sounds like support for the iPhoto in iLife '05.

_Edit: and apparently, something else, too._


----------



## tonyf3

Dennis,
Have you played with Java HMO. I tried it out but most of the functionality doesn't work.
I turned it off with it's control app. It's still showing up on the TiVo side with the expanded interface. Any idea of how remove it from the TiVo. I don't want it to step on any future updates to the TiVo desktop. (Hoping were close to 2.0 and the Mac DRM issues being resloved).


----------



## tonyf3

Interesting article about (Apple, TiVo & Sony). Scroll down past older patent info to the section: Speculation Option A.

http://www.macobserver.com/columns/devilsadvocate/2005/20050121.shtml


----------



## tonyf3

By the way. I'm just wondering. Software Development / Egineering guys. Looking at your project to do lists, and gant charts. It's been oh...1 1/2 months now. Any better idea of when you'll have Mac support? and thanks for 1.9 you've obviously been doing something.


----------



## tonyf3

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2503309#post2503309

Quote:

Originally posted by tefler 
The thing that would be interesting to know on the OS X side is whether Quicktime or other viewers support this filter chain mechanism. Can the quicktime plug-ins be chained or does it just look at a file type and send it to a plug-in which it expects to be able to handle the whole thing?

There are a number of ways to do this, but QuickTime isn't a filter planner in the same sense as DirectShow. Generally speaking, what you'd do to make this work in QuickTime using Apple's MPEG2 codec would most likely be to write a movie import component, which is a plug in that would take the .tivo file and, in memory, build a QuickTime movie that referred to the data and contained an MPEG2 muxed track, and set the media handler for the track to a custom handler. Then, you'd build a media handler component (which is what QuickTime would ask to actually get at samples) that would handle the decryption and hand those samples off to whatever codec they end up being fed to. At least, that's how I'd try to do it if I were writing the code.

I'm not 100% certain how you'd prevent the raw data from being just written out in this scenario, but the API does have some support for this to handle FairPlay-encoded audio. There are also "Media Keys" in the API. Most of the QuickTime code I've written is in support of authoring applications, and frankly, DRM of the media isn't something we've spent a lot of time on (which still surprises me, since most/many leaks of material actually happen in the post-production environment.)

__________________
Dennis

*


----------



## juanian

drjlb said:


> I am having what seems to be a unique problem. I can get to the webserver/nowplaying list, no problem. When I click download, I get a download that is .tivo. Problem is, it's only 4 kb in size. Since I can't open the .tivo file, I have no idea what it is. This happens with any program I try to download. The blue bar in the download manager always goes to completion, so it's not as if the download is timing out. The download is going to completion, it's just a really small file. I'm just trying to get a bunch of programs off my TiVo to free hd space. I'll worry about unscrambling them later.


In the Download manager, what file size is being shown (mega/gigabytes, or just a few bytes)?

If you look at the "4K" file in a text editor, it probably says something like:

*Bad Request*

recording id missing
I had that occur occasionally; try the download again later (maybe after adding or deleting some shows from Now Playing).

Also, if you are doing more than one transfer at once, you might get a file with:

*Server Busy*

download in progress

These messages don't display in the Safari window like one would expect, but . . .

Juan


----------



## tonyf3

juanian said:


> In the Download manager, what file size is being shown (mega/gigabytes, or just a few bytes)?
> 
> If you look at the "4K" file in a text editor, it probably says something like:
> 
> *Bad Request*
> 
> recording id missing
> I had that occur occasionally; try the download again later (maybe after adding or deleting some shows from Now Playing).
> 
> Also, if you are doing more than one transfer at once, you might get a file with:
> 
> *Server Busy*
> 
> download in progress
> 
> These messages don't display in the Safari window like one would expect, but . . .
> 
> Juan


Have you tried Firefox?


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## tonyf3

Still waiting TiVo Bill. Maybe Apple should buy TiVo and then stick it to the windows users. They could say we have absolutley no idea when we'll be rolling out support for a product update we announced a year ago. Sorry Bill Gates.


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## tonyf3

and yeah....we're not going quietly on this. Day 45!


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## juanian

tonyf3 said:


> Have you tried Firefox?


Nope, I haven't installed Firefox.

tonyf3:
Do you know if the error messages display properly using Firefox?

drjlb:
What browser are you using? Are you using Firefox?

Juan


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## jpd

If Safari is saving the error messages as a text file rather than displaying them, that's an indication of a possible misconfiguration of the web server in the TiVo (it's not sending the error messages as the "text/html" MIME type). Firefox is actually more likely than Safari to honor the MIME type and save the file instead of displaying it, but it's still worth a try. Since TTG via web browser is not supported, it's not surprising that they haven't yet paid proper attention to the configuration. 

Also try Internet Explorer. It's buggy enough to ignore the MIME type (or from another perspective, smart enough to realize that the "file" is really a web page).


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## drjlb

juanian said:


> In the Download manager, what file size is being shown (mega/gigabytes, or just a few bytes)?
> 
> If you look at the "4K" file in a text editor, it probably says something like:
> 
> *Bad Request*
> 
> recording id missing
> I had that occur occasionally; try the download again later (maybe after adding or deleting some shows from Now Playing).
> 
> Also, if you are doing more than one transfer at once, you might get a file with:
> 
> *Server Busy*
> 
> download in progress
> 
> These messages don't display in the Safari window like one would expect, but . . .
> 
> Juan


I haven't looked. I will. I've tried dowloading multiple times from 2 different TiVo's. I always get the same result.


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## drjlb

juanian said:


> Nope, I haven't installed Firefox.
> 
> tonyf3:
> Do you know if the error messages display properly using Firefox?
> 
> drjlb:
> What browser are you using? Are you using Firefox?
> 
> Juan


I am using Safari. I have firefox installed, but it never occurred to me that there would be a difference between browsers. I'll check.


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## SavMan

What's the T+ count for days since release now, *tonyf3*?

This thread seems to be slipping due to the several other threads concerning the same problem, unfortunately. Seeing as this is the oldest and longest thread, we should try to keep it alive if at all possible. There is a new thread, something to the effect of "I Just Cost Tivo a Customer" that has some interesting discussion. Either way, though, we should keep this alive, guys.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

SavMan said:


> This thread seems to be slipping due to the several other threads concerning the same problem, unfortunately. Seeing as this is the oldest and longest thread, we should try to keep it alive if at all possible. There is a new thread, something to the effect of "I Just Cost Tivo a Customer" that has some interesting discussion. Either way, though, we should keep this alive, guys.


Personally, I don't see the value, beyond hopefully having "newbies" who show up with this issue posting in this thread rather than starting (another) new one. In all seriousness, we know we want Mac support, TiVo knows we want Mac support, they claim to be working on it, and the current version of the Mac TiVo Desktop provides evidence that they have indeed been working on adding things to their Mac version.

The other thread you refer to is discussing more issues than just Mac support.

I don't know that simply ticking off the days/weeks/months elapsed really serves any purpose, unless there really is something new to add to the discussion.

IMHO, of course.


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## Unix_Beard

I appreciate bumping the threads. It reminds me that Tivo has still not satisfied my needs in this area. I try and not do business with companies that treat Macs as second class citizens. 

I'm personally giving them some time but I can't in good conscience keep giving Tivo my money if I'm getting short-shrifted. My cable company (not Comcast) just sent something to us about their new DVR service for both digital and HD service. So, if I'm not getting file access with Tivo, why bother anymore? And as someone pointed out, the Airport Express and Airtunes adequately fills my needs for audio.


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## SavMan

No avarice intended, *Dennis*, but since you just don't care that TiVo is cheating you, obviously you wouldn't care that the forum be bumped.

But my reasoning is such:

Newbies, yes. I want one, super-long thread that people immediately see when they log in. This shows everyone in the community, including people thinking about getting a TiVo, that this issue is not being dealt with. It also keeps us from having 25 small threads that say the same thing (re: Priority list, pixelation, codec problems, etc).

This thread IS important, too. We are a vital part of TiVo's user base, and most of us here aren't naive enough to trust an empty non-promise like "we are working hard on enabling playback...". This thread is about as vocal as we can get about the company short of performing a vigil on the TiVo campus' front lawn.

Also, I think that *TivoBill*'s statements are important. Him telling us that there are no new developments and that he won't tell us anything until it is released (if it is released) is important.

Plus, I, *tonyf3*, *Dennis Wilkinson*, *Unix_Beard*, and many others have made great, important, and LONG posts in this thread that we care not to make again in another.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

SavMan said:


> No avarice intended, *Dennis*, but since you just don't care that TiVo is cheating you, obviously you wouldn't care that the forum be bumped.


Nice of you to try and put your spin on my comments -- I don't feel that TiVo is "cheating" me out of anything. That implies intent ("let's go screw over those annoying Mac users"), and I just don't see it. They say they are working on it, and my past experience as a customer of the company and progress that I see on related fronts tells me to give them the benefit of the doubt.

My comment is strictly about whether or not it's _productive_ to continue to bump the thread without any new perspective on the issue -- I don't feel that it is. It's a little too "Dad, are we there yet? Dad, are we there yet?" to me, and I just can't see TiVoBill, TiVoPony, or anyone else popping up to respond every time the thread gets bumped, or a "is it ready this month?" thread is posted. I am certainly interested in the _outcome_, though, so I follow the threads, and I see the bumps as noise.

I'll concede that there is some small value is keeping the thread visible to deal with new posters, since so few of them tend to search for the answer before posting (some, unfortunately, not even long enough to scan a page or so of titles.)

All that said, I'm a big boy, and I can ignore noise with the best of them. If you feel the need to bump, have at it.


----------



## SavMan

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Nice of you to try and put your spin on my comments


I did nothing of the sort. *I* think we are being cheated. You don't care. Ergo, you don't care that you are being cheated, according to me. According to you, you don't care that TiVo feels it important to keep release dates secret.


> I don't feel that TiVo is "cheating" me out of anything. That implies intent ("let's go screw over those annoying Mac users"), and I just don't see it. They say they are working on it, and my past experience as a customer of the company and progress that I see on related fronts tells me to give them the benefit of the doubt.


And that's why you are being naive. The intent is not to piss us off, and if after two months of discussions, that's what you think we've been arguing, than you are more close-minded than I thought. I think you are a very intelligent person and that you have many technical skills that I lack completely, however, and that's why I respect your posting and discussing this... so let's not use strawman arguments like that from now on, okay?

The intent, as I see it, is to keep us paying as long as possible. The way I see it, there is no conceivable reason that TiVo would not give us a rough timetable for release unless one of the two following conditions are true:

*1. TivoToGo for Mac will never come out.*
TiVo partnered with Microsoft to make TiVoToGo. I don't care how many times you try and pretend that that doesn't make it MS DRM, it does. You say that its possible to use a Quicktime wrapper, but you know that's at best a misrepresentation. You yourself talked about how if they were to use the filter in a Quicktime wrapper, it would have to be in a as-of-now unreleased and unannounced version of Quicktime. This is assuming the development team adds the specific technology needed, releases it soon, and that TiVo will then get those SDKs and make a version for us, none of which we have any reason to believe is actually happening.

*2. TiVoToGo for Mac is so far off, most Mac customers would leave if they knew.*
This is the more likely scenario. MS is very good at making backroom deals to shut out Macintosh users. They did it with Sierra (Half-Life), they did it with Bungie (Halo), and they very well may have done it with TiVo. Over a year ago, there was already a version of TTG for Mac that was working well enough to show at CES. It was shown side-by-side with the Windows PC. Now, 14 months after that version was already in existence, we have a PC version that requires proprietary Microsoft system resources to run, and nothing in sight for Macintosh. If all that is required for this to work on QT is to shove it in a QT Wrapper, it would be done by now... unless Microsoft paid them not to. Bill Gates *stole* the "digital lifestyle" naming that Apple came up with after the iPod, and he is very serious about making Windows the center of your digital lifestyle. That's why we have Media Center PCs, and I believe it's the reason why we have TiVoToGo only available on PC. If they thought they would get it out next month, they would tell us. Their lack of explanation or time table speaks for itself. We will not see TTG on our platform for a long time... and I hope TiVo gets spanked for it.

TiVo of yesteryear and TiVo of today are very different. Take a look at the board, take a look at the company, you'll see. And what do you consider this wonderful progress we've been seeing? All we got was v1.9, which supports the three people who actually use the photo slideshow, paid for iLife '05, *and* figured out how to use hierarchical photo albums. You also found AAC support, but TiVo has told us they have no plans on supporting AAC for real.


> My comment is strictly about whether or not it's _productive_ to continue to bump the thread without any new perspective on the issue -- I don't feel that it is. It's a little too "Dad, are we there yet? Dad, are we there yet?" to me, and I just can't see TiVoBill, TiVoPony, or anyone else popping up to respond every time the thread gets bumped, or a "is it ready this month?" thread is posted. I am certainly interested in the _outcome_, though, so I follow the threads, and I see the bumps as noise.


This is our little way of protesting, Dennis. That's the point. TiVo thinks they can get away with keeping us in the dark so they can bleed as much money out of us as possible before we realize that there is no reason to wait anymore. If I had more time and patience, I'd call TiVo several times a day to demand a release timetable. I am, however, a full-time student with a job, so the most I can do is continue to keep this issue alive so that TiVo knows we aren't complacent, and that we won't be cheated. You can pretend that you aren't being cheated, Dennis, but it's true. You pay $13/month for half the service someone with a PC gets.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

SavMan said:


> I did nothing of the sort


I'd reread the first line of your post. The technique is occasionally called projection. Even if I did think I was being cheated, I'd still think that posting a "bump" message to a thread simply to keep it visible would be less than effective, but as I said, I can ignore "bump" messages.



> TiVo partnered with Microsoft to make TiVoToGo. I don't care how many times you try and pretend that that doesn't make it MS DRM, it does. You say that its possible to use a Quicktime wrapper, but you know that's at best a misrepresentation. You yourself talked about how if they were to use the filter in a Quicktime wrapper, it would have to be in a as-of-now unreleased and unannounced version of Quicktime. This is assuming the development team adds the specific technology needed, releases it soon, and that TiVo will then get those SDKs and make a version for us, none of which we have any reason to believe is actually happening.


The problem with that is that you're factually incorrect. TiVo did not partner with Microsoft to make TiVoToGo. TiVo partnered with Microsoft to deliver TiVoToGo support on handhelds supporting Windows Media. So says the press release, in any case.

You are misunderstanding the techincal issue. TiVo's DRM is a TiVo-implemented algorithm. The fact that it's delivered as a DirectShow filter on Windows is quite literally a matter of glue code. It is *not* Microsoft's DRM: Microsoft has their own DRM schemes, and TiVoToGo doesn't use them. The task on the Mac can be accomplished entirely without MS's support, using glue that speaks QuickTime, but the core of the DRM remains entirely TiVo's. They could possibly do this in today's QuickTime, and it is possible that they require support in the version to be delivered with Tiger's QuickTime. I'm not certain one way or the other, as much of the "might be needed" stuff is related to further protecting the information once it stops being protected by TiVo's DRM, which is not an area of QuickTime I'm familiar with.

You've misapplied Occam's Razor (which a lot of people do) to say that because there is a partnership with Microsoft that therefore the "simpler" explanation, requiring fewer hypotheses, is that they have a back-room arrangement to prevent release on the Mac. Shady back-room dealings are a pretty big hypothesis, regardless of any of past behavior of Microsoft. One of your examples of Microsoft's "past misdeeds," Bungie, in any case, is quite a bit different than a back-room dealing: Microsoft bought the company.

What we know we have is a company that has supported the Mac well before, that is still actively developing for the Mac (1.9 may not have many user-visible changes, but it is quite a bit different than what came before, including the AAC "un"support), and that says they are working on Mac support for TTG playback but decline to state when it will be available for reasons they choose not to disclose. They've had some executive shuffling to be sure, but the impact of that isn't likely to be felt for a least a little while, especially as no one new has yet been brought in.

Lots of companies, *Apple included*, keep their release dates secret, at least so far as the general public is concerned. Apple has announced that Tiger is coming, as they tend to do with OS updates, with a rough timeframe. They didn't announce iLife '05 until it was pretty much off to duplication. Same with Keynote, and Pages, and most hardware products (and hardware, if anything, has less flex in the schedule than software.) I've been developing (mostly Mac) commercial software for close to 15 years now, and there are far more reasons to not announce a release date to the public, or even a release time frame, than those you propose. And yes, that includes a simple policy against announcing release dates, as well as having been burned in the past by announcing a date.



> You can pretend that you aren't being cheated, Dennis, but it's true. You pay $13/month for half the service someone with a PC gets.


That, sir, is a load. I'm missing one feature, TiVoToGo, which represents very, very little of the functionality I desire from my TiVo. Besides, I paid for lifetime a very long time ago.

I'm a lot of things, but naive is not one of them. I realize that, at the end of the day, a my TiVo and my computers are tools. I bought them because they met my needs when I bought them. They still meet those needs now, and, happily, they now do other things I find useful. I _never_ buy products for things that they do not already do, or on the promise of future features -- with consumer electronics especially, where it's often cheaper to replace than repair, that is a surefire way to gut burned. That's the main reason I have a Comcast DVR as well as my TiVo: I wanted a tool to record HD, and Comcast's solution was adequate. Will I switch to a CableCARD TiVo when and if one becomes available? If the TiVo software is still clearly better than what Comcast provides, yes.

You can feel cheated if you want, you can even feel cheated on my behalf if you care to, but I don't feel cheated. It's a matter of personal perception. Will I feel "cheated" if TTG for the Mac never materializes? *No.* I'll be disappointed, and it may or may not affect a future purchase, but as I said, my tools still do what I bought them to do.

I've said what I have to say on this issue, and fully expect that you'll continue to disagree with me, and that's just fine. I'm going to go back to trying to provide what information I can, since, frankly, that's both more useful and more enjoyable. I've never found the Mac v. anybody religious arguments all that much fun, or all that productive.


----------



## Lon

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> You are misunderstanding the techincal issue. TiVo's DRM is a TiVo-implemented algorithm. The fact that it's delivered as a DirectShow filter on Windows is quite literally a matter of glue code. It is *not* Microsoft's DRM: Microsoft has their own DRM schemes, and TiVoToGo doesn't use them.


Dennis, I may be missing something here. I seem to recall that there are methods for playback of .TiVo files under Windows that do not require installation of the TD software. Please correct me if I am wrong here.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

Lon said:


> Dennis, I may be missing something here. I seem to recall that there are methods for playback of .TiVo files under Windows that do not require installation of the TD software. Please correct me if I am wrong here.


They require one component of TiVo's install, which is the DirectShow filter that decrypts the file and presents muxed MPEG to the rest of DirectShow, plus an entry in the registry containing the media key. The rest of the Desktop software is the server logic for serving up music & pictures, plus the logic to download .tivo files from the TiVo itself, none of which has anything to do with playback.

The first post in this thread describes how this works and provides an installer for the Windows types in the audience.


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## SavMan

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> I'd reread the first line of your post. The technique is occasionally called projection. Even if I did think I was being cheated, I'd still think that posting a "bump" message to a thread simply to keep it visible would be less than effective, but as I said, I can ignore "bump" messages.


If you can't or won't understand what I said, fine. I won't spend the rest of the day trying to explain a simple concept to you.


> The problem with that is that you're factually incorrect. TiVo did not partner with Microsoft to make TiVoToGo. TiVo partnered with Microsoft to deliver TiVoToGo support on handhelds supporting Windows Media. So says the press release, in any case.
> 
> You are misunderstanding the techincal issue. TiVo's DRM is a TiVo-implemented algorithm. The fact that it's delivered as a DirectShow filter on Windows is quite literally a matter of glue code. It is *not* Microsoft's DRM: Microsoft has their own DRM schemes, and TiVoToGo doesn't use them. The task on the Mac can be accomplished entirely without MS's support, using glue that speaks QuickTime, but the core of the DRM remains entirely TiVo's. They could possibly do this in today's QuickTime, and it is possible that they require support in the version to be delivered with Tiger's QuickTime. I'm not certain one way or the other, as much of the "might be needed" stuff is related to further protecting the information once it stops being protected by TiVo's DRM, which is not an area of QuickTime I'm familiar with.


This is what I'm talking about, Dennis. Don't be obtuse. TiVo used an entirely different DRM scheme until they had a partnership with MS. Last year it was a cross-platform program using a dongle. This year it's a MS-only product that uses an MS technology to decode using TiVo's DRM. They talk about how they partnered to make it possible to play TTG on a Windows PC AND MS Windows-based portables. They already had portables that only work through Windows Media Player at CES! I don't know how you can read that press release and REALLY think that it says TiVo didn't ever work with MS on TTG. Seriously, man.


> You've misapplied Occam's Razor (which a lot of people do) to say that because there is a partnership with Microsoft that therefore the "simpler" explanation, requiring fewer hypotheses, is that they have a back-room arrangement to prevent release on the Mac. Shady back-room dealings are a pretty big hypothesis, regardless of any of past behavior of Microsoft.


Please explain this to me. Microsoft has falsified COURT DOCUMENTS in federal cases, why wouldn't I believe that they paid TiVo to hold off on TTG for Mac? It's not illegal, it's just a crappy thing to do to its customers. 


> One of your examples of Microsoft's "past misdeeds," Bungie, in any case, is quite a bit different than a back-room dealing: Microsoft bought the company.


I may have misrelated this, true. I'm quite aware that Bungie sold out, but the fact was, MS used its vast stores of money to bribe a Mac-friendly company into holding off a Macintosh game for 2 years so it would run only on Microsoft's machine. The fact that they bought the company to do this is immaterial to the concept, but you are right, I didn't properly indicate that.


> What we know we have is a company that has supported the Mac well before, that is still actively developing for the Mac (1.9 may not have many user-visible changes, but it is quite a bit different than what came before, including the AAC "un"support), and that says they are working on Mac support for TTG playback but decline to state when it will be available for reasons they choose not to disclose. They've had some executive shuffling to be sure, but the impact of that isn't likely to be felt for a least a little while, especially as no one new has yet been brought in.


Unless you are indicating that no one is making decisions while the board has absent members, you should realize that this still shows a shift in the culture at TiVo. Regardless, v1.9 shows no progress toward TivoToGo, which is what we are talking about. You can try to redirect, but I'm not buying it. I don't care if tomorrow they announce that iTunes DRM'd songs will now play on HMO, we're still being held back from functionality we are paying for.


> Lots of companies, *Apple included*, keep their release dates secret, at least so far as the general public is concerned. Apple has announced that Tiger is coming, as they tend to do with OS updates, with a rough timeframe. They didn't announce iLife '05 until it was pretty much off to duplication.


They also didn't announce iLife '05 as a feature available until it was, in fact, AVAILABLE. If Apple had released iLife '05 for G5 only, then promised that they were working REAL HARD on getting a version for G4s, then you might have something. But I work for Apple, dude. When Apple announces an upcoming product they ALWAYS give a timeframe. Every OS upgrade, every bit of software. They either release it the day they announce it, or give a date (rough or not).


> Same with Keynote, and Pages, and most hardware products (and hardware, if anything, has less flex in the schedule than software.)


Unannounced, and unannounced. No one had any actual announcement that such a program existed until it did. You don't seem to get this: TiVo ANNOUNCED that they were working on this program, yet couldn't tell us it would even be out this decade, much less year, quarter, or month. Unlike any of your examples, it's only in TiVo's advantage to keep people waiting as long as possible, even if they don't plan on ever releasing a new version. That is why I'm suspicious. Hardware products are obvious, and we've covered that in a previous thread.



> I've been developing (mostly Mac) commercial software for close to 15 years now, and there are far more reasons to not announce a release date to the public, or even a release time frame, than those you propose. And yes, that includes a simple policy against announcing release dates, as well as having been burned in the past by announcing a date.


 You have YET to propose a situation that meshes with this, other than "getting burned." If you don't meet a date, you deal with it. But when you refuse to give even a rough timeframe, you show that you don't want any chance of accountability. TiVo promised us CableCard TiVos in first quarter 2006, they promised Sonic's software in the first two weeks of TTG, they promised TTG before the end of last year (missed by a week), and they promised us software v7.1 by a certain time. It's obviously not a TiVo policy to hold out on release dates on software they tell us they are working on.



> That, sir, is a load. I'm missing one feature, TiVoToGo, which represents very, very little of the functionality I desire from my TiVo. Besides, I paid for lifetime a very long time ago.


Okay, but just because you don't care doesn't mean you aren't being cheated. If I don't desire an undercarriage coating on a car, but the dealer charges me for it anyway and skips getting it applied, I have still been cheated. It doesn't matter that the coating is one small feature, or that the coating isn't something I find valuable. I was still cheated. What I paid for was not delivered to me. You paid for lifetime, good for you. I wish I'd done that, I'm coming up on that amount spent on my first TiVo soon. Either way, you paid for the development. If they went to Series 3, I wouldn't *****, but that is not the case.


> You can feel cheated if you want, you can even feel cheated on my behalf if you care to, but I don't feel cheated. It's a matter of personal perception. Will I feel "cheated" if TTG for the Mac never materializes? *No.* I'll be disappointed, and it may or may not affect a future purchase, but as I said, my tools still do what I bought them to do.


And that's great, more power to you. But you can't argue that I have no right to be angry. I HAVE been cheated. My money has been given to TiVo with the good faith agreement that it would partly pay for my service, and partly pay for development of new features. That's how this business works. It's not a hammer, it's a computer. 


> I've never found the Mac v. anybody religious arguments all that much fun, or all that productive.


I don't think this is a "religious" issue. I bought a product with the understanding, promoted by TiVo, that I would be supported. I am not being supported. I am giving TiVo a piece of my mind, and encouraging others to do the same. You are telling us we are stupid for being upset. I don't understand why it has to be your job to sit here and mock us for perfectly legitimate gripes.

So if you don't care, DON'T POST. I appreciate your posts that are instructional, you discovered the AAC functionality, and I will give you all the credit in the world for that. But it's incredibly annoying to be chided for airing grievances in a thread that was set up precisely for that reason.


----------



## SavMan

Damn that was long. I'm tired and cranky now. *Dennis*, I hope we are walking away from this exchange with respect for one another. Your passions do not lie along the same paths as mine, but I have always been a firm believer in good business practices. I feel TiVo is performing a disservice to a large part of their users, and I want to give them an opportunity to right their wrongs. You believe my anger to be foolhardy, and it might be true. I hope I'm wrong. But I truly think that this is the beginning of the end for TiVo and Mac support. Regardless of our disagreements, I still respect you for having the same studiousness I do for an argument with a stranger on an anonymous web board. Bravo, sir.


----------



## Lon

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> They require one component of TiVo's install, which is the DirectShow filter that decrypts the file and presents muxed MPEG to the rest of DirectShow, plus an entry in the registry containing the media key. The rest of the Desktop software is the server logic for serving up music & pictures, plus the logic to download .tivo files from the TiVo itself, none of which has anything to do with playback.
> 
> The first post in this thread describes how this works and provides an installer for the Windows types in the audience.


Thank you for the link. However, there have been other solutions (some not allowed to be discussed on this forum anymore - hence I am not able to link to them or where they've moved to) that do not utilize the TiVo dll.

While I am waiting for the official mac solution, I have been spending way too much time with Linux+wine+misc in attempts to find a non-MS solution. Perhaps I need a hobby


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Lon said:


> Thank you for the link. However, there have been other solutions (some not allowed to be discussed on this forum anymore - hence I am not able to link to them or where they've moved to) that do not utilize the TiVo dll.


None of the, er, evil solutions that I've heard of eliminate the TiVo DLL.



> While I am waiting for the official mac solution, I have been spending way too much time with Linux+wine+misc in attempts to find a non-MS solution. Perhaps I need a hobby


Sounds to me like you found one...


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

SavMan said:


> This is what I'm talking about, Dennis. Don't be obtuse. TiVo used an entirely different DRM scheme until they had a partnership with MS. Last year it was a cross-platform program using a dongle. This year it's a MS-only product that uses an MS technology to decode using TiVo's DRM. They talk about how they partnered to make it possible to play TTG on a Windows PC AND MS Windows-based portables. They already had portables that only work through Windows Media Player at CES! I don't know how you can read that press release and REALLY think that it says TiVo didn't ever work with MS on TTG. Seriously, man.


I'll respond to this point, since you're still not understanding the technology.

The work required to integrate DRM-on-a-dongle is identical, on both the Mac and the PC, to the DRM scheme they actually shipped. The only difference is that in the dongle case, the MAK would be stored on the dongle rather than on the host, along with some or all of the logic to decrypt (and I'd bet not much of that, given the bandwidth constraints of USB 1.1.) You'd still have to write the same "glue", meaning a DirectShow filter on the PC, and some set of QuickTime components on the Mac. You'd also have the additional burden of writing device drivers for the dongle.

As to demoing TTG on Windows Media-capable handhelds -- the media SDKs as I remember them are virtually identical between host and handheld. Prepping the demo was most likely a simple recompile for the handheld's CPU architecture and possibly some minor packaging work, and I'd be very surprised if it look longer than a few days to get to demo-able condition.

As to everything else, it's obvious neither of us finds the others argument convincing, so we agree to disagree.

Just out of curiosity, what do you do at Apple? I've known quite a few people over there over the years.


----------



## jpd

Actually I think TiVo Desktop 1.9 _does_ show significant progress towards supporting TTG. It's support of AAC demonstrates that the software can now communicate with other pieces of software installed on the Mac, an essential piece of how .tivo files get decrypted. 1.9 passes the AAC files to SoundConverter and LAME which converts them, they are passed back to 1.9 and then sent to the TiVo. 1.8 can't do that. .tivo files would be passed around in the opposite direction (from the media player to the TiVo Desktop decoding tool, back to the media player) but the concept is the same.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the end the media player turns out not be QuickTime at all. VLC is a possibility, would likely work using the same mechanism as LAME, and we already have an indication that it was meant to be supported on Windows 2000, but something wasn't quite right - maybe the same issue that is keeping 2.0 on the Mac from being released? This is just idle speculation. Quicktime would definitely be better from the user's standpoint, but it's not the only way to go.


----------



## SavMan

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> I'll respond to this point, since you're still not understanding the technology.
> 
> The work required to integrate DRM-on-a-dongle is identical, on both the Mac and the PC, to the DRM scheme they actually shipped. The only difference is that in the dongle case, the MAK would be stored on the dongle rather than on the host, along with some or all of the logic to decrypt (and I'd bet not much of that, given the bandwidth constraints of USB 1.1.) You'd still have to write the same "glue", meaning a DirectShow filter on the PC, and some set of QuickTime components on the Mac. You'd also have the additional burden of writing device drivers for the dongle.


You keep telling us this, but if that's true, then T2G for mac has been finished and operable for over a year. If it's the same, why are they supposedly working on "enabling playback" so hard? It doesn't make sense, Dennis. If TiVo doesn't have a version out now, the only reasonable explanation is that it is either impossible, or so hard that they can't figure it out yet. But you keep telling everybody that it's no problem, despite admitting you know nothing about the Quicktime internals. I just think you are taking for granted that they changed nothing in a year between CES shows... you don't know anything about the dongle, other than it existed, yet you are 100% sure it's nothing more than a .dll that ran through DirectShow. If you have more information, tell it to us, because all we have now is conjecture costumed as irrefutable fact.


> As to demoing TTG on Windows Media-capable handhelds -- the media SDKs as I remember them are virtually identical between host and handheld. Prepping the demo was most likely a simple recompile for the handheld's CPU architecture and possibly some minor packaging work, and I'd be very surprised if it look longer than a few days to get to demo-able condition.


And this is supposed to refute my point? They have a partnership. They didn't sign the partnership at CES, they announced it there. You take so many things for granted here to make your point, but pretend that they are obvious and true. All i'm saying is, one year ago it was running and working for thousands of people watching at CES. Then this CES, they announce it for WMP only with no Mac compatibility in sight (in fact, they admit they can't even get it to play back now) and announce that they've had a partnership with Microsoft to get it to MS "portables." You attest that this indicates no communication or planning or help between TiVo and MS, I say the opposite. Microsoft doesn't want T2G to work on Macs, that's unarguable. If BG can keep something from being cross-platform, he will... it's only good business sense. So I think that might have a lot to do with why TiVo doesn't even have the cojones to give us a quarter estimate of when it will be done.


> Just out of curiosity, what do you do at Apple? I've known quite a few people over there over the years.


FOR Apple, not at Apple. I'm an Apple Campus Representative. I work for Apple Education Sales with an Account Executive to arrange promotional events, provide a campus face for Apple, help with the campus MUG, etc. Great job.


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## mattman

SavMan said:


> Microsoft doesn't want T2G to work on Macs, that's unarguable. If BG can keep something from being cross-platform, he will... it's only good business sense.


SavMan-

There is no question that you and I disagree on this matter, and I'm certainly willing to accept that, as you seem to be as well, but I do have to question that it's "unargualbe" that MS doesn't want TTG to work on Macs. It may be likely, or even something we can infer from MS's past tactics, but in lack of firm evidence, such as a direct memo or e-mail between TiVo and MS, it's certainly not "unarguable". I do not believe TiVo would enter in to such an agreement, while you obviously do, that I can accept, but I wouldn't call it a slam dunk without actual proof, of which I have seen none.

Matt


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## Dennis Wilkinson

SavMan said:


> You keep telling us this, but if that's true, then T2G for mac has been finished and operable for over a year. If it's the same, why are they supposedly working on "enabling playback" so hard? It doesn't make sense, Dennis. If TiVo doesn't have a version out now, the only reasonable explanation is that it is either impossible, or so hard that they can't figure it out yet. But you keep telling everybody that it's no problem, despite admitting you know nothing about the Quicktime internals. I just think you are taking for granted that they changed nothing in a year between CES shows... you don't know anything about the dongle, other than it existed, yet you are 100% sure it's nothing more than a .dll that ran through DirectShow. If you have more information, tell it to us, because all we have now is conjecture costumed as irrefutable fact.


By your yardstick of demoable==ready, then all of TiVoToGo was ready at CES 2004 and should have been shipped. It wasn't. I know quite a lot about QuickTime internals, having been writing QuickTime components for the better part of the last eight years, and have had quite a bit of exposure to DirectShow in the course of that work as well, mostly from a competitive technical analysis standpoint. What I don't know intimately are things related to maintaining "priviledges" on data post-decryption in QuickTime, as I haven't had any call to use them.

There are only so many ways to implement these things without coding your own complete player from the ground up. Other people familiar with the technical issues would come to similar conclusions.

You're also making the assumption that what was demoed at CES actually included the copy protection scheme. They demoed playback, which could be a lot of things.

There was a lot of discussion about the dongle when it was announced. Have a look here (the thread, not just this post):

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/ti...postid=1665298&highlight=TiVoPony#post1665298

The crypto chip has also been discussed, if you go back far enough in the archive. This doesn't guarantee, but strongly implies, that the crypto chip was doing some or all of the decryption. It is also certain that it was not doing decompression of the MPEG, especially if it needed to be 1.1 compatible, because of bandwidth limits. This means you need to have something on the host to decompress, and what they implemented on Windows (a DirectShow filter) for decompress and play is the logical solution for that platform, just as the QuickTime implementation I described is a logical solution for Mac OS X.



> And this is supposed to refute my point?


No, it's a clarification. You were implying that because there were handhelds to demo TTG on at CES this year that that showed things had been in the works for a while. My point is that the effort in making this demo-able on a Windows Media-capable handheld is small, and really doesn't _require_ involvement from Microsoft. They could have easily come to the partnership agreement a week before CES and still shown it.


----------



## drjlb

juanian said:


> In the Download manager, what file size is being shown (mega/gigabytes, or just a few bytes)?
> 
> If you look at the "4K" file in a text editor, it probably says something like:
> 
> *Bad Request*
> 
> recording id missing
> I had that occur occasionally; try the download again later (maybe after adding or deleting some shows from Now Playing).
> 
> Also, if you are doing more than one transfer at once, you might get a file with:
> 
> *Server Busy*
> 
> download in progress
> 
> These messages don't display in the Safari window like one would expect, but . . .
> 
> Juan


In Safari, I get

*Bad Request*

session id missing

If I use Firefox, I get complete downloads (2.75G/1 hr). I guess I'll just use Firefox from here on out.


----------



## SavMan

mattman said:


> SavMan-
> 
> There is no question that you and I disagree on this matter, and I'm certainly willing to accept that, as you seem to be as well, but I do have to question that it's "unargualbe" that MS doesn't want TTG to work on Macs. It may be likely, or even something we can infer from MS's past tactics, but in lack of firm evidence, such as a direct memo or e-mail between TiVo and MS, it's certainly not "unarguable". I do not believe TiVo would enter in to such an agreement, while you obviously do, that I can accept, but I wouldn't call it a slam dunk without actual proof, of which I have seen none.


No. It is inarguable that MS doesn't *want* T2G to work on Mac. Absolutely inarguable. MS wants NO competition, that's the modus operandi of their corporation. Given their druthers, they would prefer that no other platform exist, much less be compatible with T2G.

What is quite easy to argue about, and what you mistakenly thought I asserted as fact, is whether or not part of the deal Bill Gates *actually made* with TiVo was that they held off on T2G for Mac. I have no evidence other than circumstances that that is true.

TiVo wouldn't have done such a deal in the past, but since they have been having financial problems, corporate shake-ups, etc and have let the "me-toos" from the Cable companies catch up with them, I find it quite probable that part of their "partnership" is a sole-distributorship deal with Microsoft. It's not illegal, and it's an extremely common practice, so there's no real reason other than not being a dick to their customers for TiVo to not accept it. So until TiVo actually tells us they are going to release T2G Mac someday instead of telling us they are working on it and not even promising a release or giving us a timetable, I see no reason to believe TiVo's PR department. There is no conceivable reason for TiVo to not give us a date if this port is anywhere on the horizon.


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## Unix_Beard

I believe Apple told us at last year's WWDC that Tiger would ship in the 2nd quarter of 05. They projected over a year in advance. And I bet they deliver too.

Tivo is not Apple. But then again TTG is now OS X either. My only conclusions are 1.) TTG for Mac will never materialize, 2.) TTG is waiting for Media Player 10 (which may never materialize), or 3.)Tivo needs Tiger to get whatever they need done. Although new versions of iDVD and iMovie as well as Quicktime have already shipped. (Did a new version of Quicktime come out recently or is that part of Tiger? I recall a demo of something at Macworld in Jan...)

My point is that it does not seem like a monumental task. However, I have no idea of the size of the staff Tivo employs to work on these things. When is enough enough? I can deal with a few months. Do you get concerned after 6 months? 1 year?


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## Dennis Wilkinson

Unix_Beard said:


> Did a new version of Quicktime come out recently or is that part of Tiger? I recall a demo of something at Macworld in Jan...


QuickTime 7.0 will supposedly ship with Tiger. No idea if it will also ship for Panther or Jaguar -- some Apple updates do, some don't, but QuickTime in the past has always been one of the more backwards-compatible items. Apple's site only discusses it in the context of Tiger.

I'd expect a Windows release sometime in the same time frame, based on past history.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/quicktime.html


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## tonyf3

SavMan said:


> No avarice intended, *Dennis*, but since you just don't care that TiVo is cheating you, obviously you wouldn't care that the forum be bumped.
> 
> But my reasoning is such:
> 
> Newbies, yes. I want one, super-long thread that people immediately see when they log in. This shows everyone in the community, including people thinking about getting a TiVo, that this issue is not being dealt with. It also keeps us from having 25 small threads that say the same thing (re: Priority list, pixelation, codec problems, etc).
> 
> This thread IS important, too. We are a vital part of TiVo's user base, and most of us here aren't naive enough to trust an empty non-promise like "we are working hard on enabling playback...". This thread is about as vocal as we can get about the company short of performing a vigil on the TiVo campus' front lawn.
> 
> Also, I think that *TivoBill*'s statements are important. Him telling us that there are no new developments and that he won't tell us anything until it is released (if it is released) is important.
> 
> Plus, I, *tonyf3*, *Dennis Wilkinson*, *Unix_Beard*, and many others have made great, important, and LONG posts in this thread that we care not to make again in another.


Thanks SavMan, well said. Yes indeed, I've been bumping Mac related threads to the top.
We need to stay visable, vocal, and frankly as in their face as we can get on these and other important Mac related issues. and yes the newbies and others will be drawn into this huge thread. Trying to keep TiVo honest and on their toes about what they've promised, and what we're paying for.


----------



## mattman

SavMan said:


> No. It is inarguable that MS doesn't *want* T2G to work on Mac. Absolutely inarguable. MS wants NO competition, that's the modus operandi of their corporation. Given their druthers, they would prefer that no other platform exist, much less be compatible with T2G.
> 
> What is quite easy to argue about, and what you mistakenly thought I asserted as fact, is whether or not part of the deal Bill Gates *actually made* with TiVo was that they held off on T2G for Mac. I have no evidence other than circumstances that that is true.
> 
> TiVo wouldn't have done such a deal in the past, but since they have been having financial problems, corporate shake-ups, etc and have let the "me-toos" from the Cable companies catch up with them, I find it quite probable that part of their "partnership" is a sole-distributorship deal with Microsoft. It's not illegal, and it's an extremely common practice, so there's no real reason other than not being a dick to their customers for TiVo to not accept it. So until TiVo actually tells us they are going to release T2G Mac someday instead of telling us they are working on it and not even promising a release or giving us a timetable, I see no reason to believe TiVo's PR department. There is no conceivable reason for TiVo to not give us a date if this port is anywhere on the horizon.


I'll give you that I was mistaken about your assertion, it certainly wouldn't be the first time I'd read something into someone else's words. 

I also won't argue for too long about what is an arguable point.  So I'll concede by saying that I agree that MS certainly is less than enthusiastic about Apple getting further foothold in the consumer electronics and home entertainment markets, as Apple has grown exponentially in at least mindshare in those areas in the past few years.

I just don't see any black helicopters in the lack of a release date, or even the lack of a formal commitment to release the product at all. I can understand your reasons for seeing the backroom deals, and I guess I'll leave it at that.

The bottom line for all of us is that we would like to have TiVoToGo usable on our Macs, and that is something I can get behind, it's just not as big a deal for me personally.

Matt


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## tonyf3

I'm wondering what kind of back room deals are going on between Apple & Sony. aka Steve Jobs & Nobuyuki Idei (Sony CEO). Nobuyuki Idei was on stage at Macworld with Jobs.


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## mattman

There is probably *some* cooperation, *but* Sony just had an announcement a few days ago about their next version of the "iPod Killer", so I would imagine that at least the music side of Sony is not eager to do much business with Apple. Too many rivalries.

Matt


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## jpd

drjlb said:


> In Safari, I get
> 
> *Bad Request*
> 
> session id missing


The session ID might be stored in a cookie, so the trouble transferring files could be related to disabling cookies.


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## jgpsound

..bump


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## juanian

Let's get real here and start yelling at the *real* villains -- entities like the MPAA that restrict how we can view and handle content. If it weren't for *them*, we (and companies like TiVo) wouldn't *have* to jump through hoops to deal with things like DRM (or worry about being sued or shut down).

No, wait, forget what I just said -- the *real* villains are the people who pirate video content and sell it illegally -- yea, these are the real villains. If these people didn't exist, then the studios wouldn't be as tight-*ssed about controlling their content. Yea, let's blame the pirates!

But wait -- if people didn't buy or steal content, then the pirates wouldn't *have* anybody to make a profit *from*, and the studios would still receive the $$$ they want, so yea, look around -- the *REAL villains* AREN'T TiVo, Microsoft, Apple, Sony, or Paramount! 

Me? Hey, I want to be able to view TiVo-recorded shows on my Mac while the TV is 'held hostage' playing (legally purchased) video games on a (legal, un-modded) PlayStation 2. *I* believe (and I probably have no authority on which to base that belief) that the big hold-up of TTG on a Mac *is* TiVo trying to kiss-up as much as possible to the 'content providers' to not be sued or shut down. Is TiVo waiting on Apple OS support (in the form of a future QuickTime release)? If it was, TiVo certainly wouldn't say so, because there would be a (small but feisty) band of people screaming at Apple to hurry up and get it released, which would p*ss off Apple, and sour any relationship Apple may have with TiVo. Is TiVo trying to write their own (having given up on trying to work within Apple's clearly proprietary encryption scheme)? I dunno!

Truth or fiction -- *you* decide!

Both dousing and prodding . . . 
Juan

Edit - Also, I'd be *happy* that I don't have to purchase a ~$25 dongle per computer that I want to view content on.


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## tonyf3

juanian said:


> Let's get real here and start yelling at the *real* villains -- entities like the MPAA that restrict how we can view and handle content. If it weren't for *them*, we (and companies like TiVo) wouldn't *have* to jump through hoops to deal with things like DRM (or worry about being sued or shut down).
> 
> No, wait, forget what I just said -- the *real* villains are the people who pirate video content and sell it illegally -- yea, these are the real villains. If these people didn't exist, then the studios wouldn't be as tight-*ssed about controlling their content. Yea, let's blame the pirates!
> 
> But wait -- if people didn't buy or steal content, then the pirates wouldn't *have* anybody to make a profit *from*, and the studios would still receive the $$$ they want, so yea, look around -- the *REAL villains* AREN'T TiVo, Microsoft, Apple, Sony, or Paramount!
> 
> Me? Hey, I want to be able to view TiVo-recorded shows on my Mac while the TV is 'held hostage' playing (legally purchased) video games on a (legal, un-modded) PlayStation 2. *I* believe (and I probably have no authority on which to base that belief) that the big hold-up of TTG on a Mac *is* TiVo trying to kiss-up as much as possible to the 'content providers' to not be sued or shut down. Is TiVo waiting on Apple OS support (in the form of a future QuickTime release)? If it was, TiVo certainly wouldn't say so, because there would be a (small but feisty) band of people screaming at Apple to hurry up and get it released, which would p*ss off Apple, and sour any relationship Apple may have with TiVo. Is TiVo trying to write their own (having given up on trying to work within Apple's clearly proprietary encryption scheme)? I dunno!
> 
> Truth or fiction -- *you* decide!
> 
> Both dousing and prodding . . .
> Juan
> 
> Edit - Also, I'd be *happy* that I don't have to purchase a ~$25 dongle per computer that I want to view content on.


Thanks Juan.
I'm going with Truth.


----------



## ig88

TiVo Desktop for Mac v1.9.1 (420kb) Updated February 18, 2005. This update contains: a revised preferences mechanism, support for photo album heirarchies, a new plug-in API, and minor bug fixes.
Music & Photos only

Still no T2G of course...


----------



## thehand

this version doesn't work for me. How do get the previous version?


----------



## thehand

what would happen if I connected the other usb of the DVR to my mac?


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

thehand said:


> what would happen if I connected the other usb of the DVR to my mac?


USB doesn't work that way. The TiVo and the Mac would both want to be "in charge."


----------



## tonyf3

http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/587/mike_ramsay_denies

Interesting article. and as an added bonus the upcoming speaking engagements of the TiVo movers & shakers.Wonder what they'll have to say at NAB in April.

http://www.tivo.com/5.3.6.asp


----------



## thehand

so how do I get the previous version (1.8) or is there something stupid a dumbass like me is doing to cause the tivo desktop making not my stuff in to the god damn DVR.

Why haven't you guys tried TyStudio?


----------



## rog

tonyf3 said:


> I'm wondering what kind of back room deals are going on between Apple & Sony. aka Steve Jobs & Nobuyuki Idei (Sony CEO). Nobuyuki Idei was on stage at Macworld with Jobs.


http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20050120.html


----------



## Lon

and this: "NEW YORK, Feb 23 (Reuters) - TiVo Inc. (TIVO.O: Quote, Profile, Research) shares jumped more than 17 percent on Wednesday, fueled by speculation that Apple Computer Inc. (AAPL.O: Quote, Profile, Research) might make a try to buy the digital video recorder maker, analysts said." http://reuters.com/financeQuoteComp...tfh60398_2005-02-23_20-25-41_n23627852_newsml


----------



## AnteL0pe

Lon said:


> and this: "NEW YORK, Feb 23 (Reuters) - TiVo Inc. (TIVO.O: Quote, Profile, Research) shares jumped more than 17 percent on Wednesday, fueled by speculation that Apple Computer Inc. (AAPL.O: Quote, Profile, Research) might make a try to buy the digital video recorder maker, analysts said." http://reuters.com/financeQuoteComp...tfh60398_2005-02-23_20-25-41_n23627852_newsml


  Doubt it will happen, but I like the possibility. Of course apple has been burned in the set top box arena before, and the Mac TV model wasnt a huge success either. Who knows.....


----------



## ZeoTiVo

SavMan said:


> You have YET to propose a situation that meshes with this, other than "getting burned." If you don't meet a date, you deal with it. But when you refuse to give even a rough timeframe, you show that you don't want any chance of accountability. TiVo promised us CableCard TiVos in first quarter 2006, they promised Sonic's software in the first two weeks of TTG, they promised TTG before the end of last year (missed by a week), and they promised us software v7.1 by a certain time. It's obviously not a TiVo policy to hold out on release dates on software they tell us they are working on.


 seems more like TiVo announces dates they are reasonably sure of. On other boards posters who were at CES , talked to some apple engineers who knew Apple was helping TiVo with TTG( the board is live journal - TiVo lovers , no idea of the post itself anymore) so you have COMPLETELY speculated that TiVo is not working on TTG for Mac with nothing to back it up but the fact that MicroSoft is involved with TTG. Does not sound like a concrete argument to me and has the tinge of bias to it. TiVo history and the release of version 1.9 seems a lot more concrete to me.



> And that's great, more power to you. But you can't argue that I have no right to be angry. I HAVE been cheated. My money has been given to TiVo with the good faith agreement that it would partly pay for my service, and partly pay for development of new features.


and Dennis nor anyone else never argued against your right to be angry. It was simply that bumping the thread to say that yet again only helps you and the occiasional newbie. As stated above, I think Tivo is actively spending your money and mine on Mac support adn until you have real proof to the contrary you are being angry based solely on speculation.


----------



## SavMan

ZeoTiVo said:


> seems more like TiVo announces dates they are reasonably sure of. On other boards posters who were at CES , talked to some apple engineers who knew Apple was helping TiVo with TTG( the board is live journal - TiVo lovers , no idea of the post itself anymore) so you have COMPLETELY speculated that TiVo is not working on TTG for Mac with nothing to back it up but the fact that MicroSoft is involved with TTG.


No, the fact that TiVo is not "reasonably sure" they can get this program out the door this year, next year, etc is evidence enough. And yes, MS being involved in a partnership makes is more likely than not that there is a hold being placed on the release of this program. MS probably stipulated this so they could get all their WMP-enabled devices out the door and on the market first.

And please PLEASE tell me again that here-say from an anonymous user on the internet is concrete evidence, it's simply hilarious. Really.


> Does not sound like a concrete argument to me and has the tinge of bias to it. TiVo history and the release of version 1.9 seems a lot more concrete to me.


Of what bias are you speaking, sir? Do you contest that I am in fact, a ReplayTV fan? That I've been paying money to TiVo for two years as a "sleeper," waiting for the right time to EXPLODE... on a message board?


> and Dennis nor anyone else never argued against your right to be angry. It was simply that bumping the thread to say that yet again only helps you and the occiasional newbie.


Can you READ!?!? Dennis has been telling us from the beginning that we have no right to be angry, along with several other posters! Zeo, you are smarter than this, I have appreciated your insightful posts in the past, but that's simply the stupidest post I've read in days, and I read Fark.

From day one we've been told we have no right to be angry because only 3% of people use Macs (patently false in several ways), because they told us they are working on it, because we didn't buy TiVo for the express purpose of using T2G, because "who cares," because T2G isn't that great anyway, because it's useless to everyone because it's not HD... the list goes on.


> As stated above, I think Tivo is actively spending your money and mine on Mac support adn until you have real proof to the contrary you are being angry based solely on speculation.


You are not angry based solely on speculation. So really, what sort of high ground does your opinion come from? Gee golly whiz, if I could have some sort of proof that TiVo has any plans of coming out with T2G in the next century, I would shut up... but that's the rub now, isn't it? TiVo won't even promise that there WILL be a Mac version. They made sure their carefully worded statement left that hole wide open. The day I get a release timetable is they day I stop speculating.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Morris Herman said:


> I thank you for your help although it would have been nicer had it not been delivered with an insult to the Mac users.
> 
> Do you PC people realize that you owe much to Apple and the Mac people in terms of pushing the envelope on creativity and innovation? If Microsoft was out there alone without Apple, you would not have many of the new OS features that you enjoy now. But this is not news to you, right?
> 
> I have just downloaded WMP 10 but I get the same unauthorized access message after I enter the password. I have decided to transfer the Tivo recording again with the Tivo Desktop and then to play it with WMP 10.
> 
> It works!!! ...well sort of.. the picture does skip occasionally and the lips are not in sync (WMP is not QuickTime) with the audio but this is way better than nothing.
> 
> Now back to the Mac to replicate the process.


sorry just got around to reading your reply - my statement "Guess you mac users never had t oread the instructions" was meant as a complimnet to the quality of mac software. In all my past years of support of Macs in a network environment I never had to use the manual as it was clear in the software how to make it do what was needed since I knew what was needed. Also the whole Microsoft productivity suite was first written for Apple and Apple remains a huge customer of Microsoft software. And yes thank God Microsoft has the competition from Apple - few companies have been able to do that and it is sorely needed.

again, I may be sarcastic but do not ever think Apple does not have my respect for what it has done in the industry - it does have my respect.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

SavMan said:


> No, the fact that TiVo is not "reasonably sure" they can get this program out the door this year, next year, etc is evidence enough. And yes, MS being involved in a partnership makes is more likely than not that there is a hold being placed on the release of this program. MS probably stipulated this so they could get all their WMP-enabled devices out the door and on the market first.


it is this persistent posting of some TiVo evil agreement with MS that pulled me in. You are angry that TTG did not come with Mac support. That is your right, but you need to take a step back and look at some of the accusations you are posting as fact when neither of us has any real proof on the matter.



> And please PLEASE tell me again that here-say from an anonymous user on the internet is concrete evidence, it's simply hilarious. Really.


 I can not go into names as I do not wish to drag someone else into this and I doubt he reads these threads anyway. There is more behind it, I think Apple is working with TiVo and that TiVo is beholden to Apple time frame. Typically when Tivo is beholden to a third party (Sonic and the DVD burning software for example) TiVo says very little about time frames. the pattern matches to the Mac TTG desktop. Sorry I can not give more to back these statements up.


> Of what bias are you speaking, sir? Do you contest that I am in fact, a ReplayTV fan? That I've been paying money to TiVo for two years as a "sleeper," waiting for the right time to EXPLODE... on a message board?


no nothing like a sleeper conspiracy - I do not know you well but your posts and invective in them are coming off as being very biased toward Mac as good and Microsoft as evil. I do not hold position on this so I am not saying this to try and argue either position - just noting that you are sounding like that and it effects your credibility


> Can you READ!?!? Dennis has been telling us from the beginning that we have no right to be angry, along with several other posters! Zeo, you are smarter than this, I have appreciated your insightful posts in the past, but that's simply the stupidest post I've read in days, and I read Fark.


 maybe so - I have not read every post. my point is only though that Dennis was more about you not posting the same angry stuff over and over to no avail - but I will not speak for Dennis any more on that. I think you have a right to be angry but only in lack of mac support - I think you are just trying to make it unbearable for TiVo here and make them say something by arguing any theory you can come up that they do not want to hear. It has little effect on TiVo but for peoiple reading it without a 2 year background in TiVo it will make them come to wrong conclusions - that is what I think dennis was trying to get you off doing.


> From day one we've been told we have no right to be angry because only 3% of people use Macs (patently false in several ways), because they told us they are working on it, because we didn't buy TiVo for the express purpose of using T2G, because "who cares," because T2G isn't that great anyway, because it's useless to everyone because it's not HD... the list goes on.


 yep those are all wrong headed notions except tha tTiVo is working on it and I think it is partly out of their hands and in Apples hands - what is TiVo to do about that ? Also I think 20% of users are Mac users may be wrong as well.



> You are not angry based solely on speculation. So really, what sort of high ground does your opinion come from? Gee golly whiz, if I could have some sort of proof that TiVo has any plans of coming out with T2G in the next century, I would shut up... but that's the rub now, isn't it? TiVo won't even promise that there WILL be a Mac version. They made sure their carefully worded statement left that hole wide open. The day I get a release timetable is they day I stop speculating.


no high ground and you can post your opinion all you want, just stop posting pure speculation and guesses as fact and stop posting evil conspiracies as even speculation unless you have something that backs it up more than just because they are saying nothing


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

SavMan said:


> Can you READ!?!? Dennis has been telling us from the beginning that we have no right to be angry, along with several other posters!


I suggest you go back and read yourself. *I* have not said that you have no right to be angry. I haven't even implied it. Of course you have that right. All I've said is that I disagree with your appraisal of the situation, that I don't think that simply bumping threads really helps get the issue addressed, and I've stated the reasons why I believe that to be the case in the hope of providing some balance to the discussion. That's it.

You obviously still disagree with me, and again, that's fine. But don't tell me that I'm somehow denying you have the right to feel however you feel.


----------



## tchwojko

I certainly hope that if and when we get Mac support, it's better than the Windows version. I have one Windows laptop running 2000. I gave TivoToGo a try there.

I installed Tivo Desktop, no problem, I could find everything fine.

I installed the recommended codecs for Windows 2000, installation seems to go fine.

Then I try to actually play something back, and I get an incomplete (47 minutes of the supposed hour in the first case, 19 minutes of 60 in the second) squashed (480x480) playback. Unofficial support on these boards talk about getting random third party tools to do some of the messing around with codecs and registry keys, though I don't have any desire to install even more possibly spyware-laden tools to do experiment to find exactly the right combination of things that'll work.

It's not worth my time to mess around with it.


----------



## Unix_Beard

tchwojko said:


> I certainly hope that if and when we get Mac support, it's better than the Windows version. I have one Windows laptop running 2000. I gave TivoToGo a try there.
> 
> I installed Tivo Desktop, no problem, I could find everything fine.
> 
> I installed the recommended codecs for Windows 2000, installation seems to go fine.
> 
> Then I try to actually play something back, and I get an incomplete (47 minutes of the supposed hour in the first case, 19 minutes of 60 in the second) squashed (480x480) playback. Unofficial support on these boards talk about getting random third party tools to do some of the messing around with codecs and registry keys, though I don't have any desire to install even more possibly spyware-laden tools to do experiment to find exactly the right combination of things that'll work.
> 
> It's not worth my time to mess around with it.


Amen. I don't have time to be bothered fooling with codecs.

Apparently, the Tivo Desktop for Windows wasn't up to the Mac version. For one, it didn't run as a daemon and it didn't support iTunes the way the Mac version does.

And thank you for mentioning the word "registry." It brings back all the memories of why I left Windows behind.


----------



## tonyf3

and still we wait....day 56. I wonder if Mr. Ramsey's Mac is being used much with TiVo togo. He's probably got beta software.


----------



## tonyf3

rog said:


> http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20050120.html


I buy it, makes sense to me.


----------



## cwoody222

tonyf3 said:


> and still we wait....day 56. I wonder if Mr. Ramsey's Mac is being used much with TiVo togo. He's probably got beta software.


This just makes me sad 

For years I've had a networked ReplayTV 5040 model. I've never been able to get Internet Video Sharing or streaming from my DVArchive to work. But I've never really tried since I never had a need to use them.

Today I spent no more than a half hour figuring it out. It was easy. I never just really put any thought into it before.

So today I used a great website (not one for you to POOP on, not even LIghtly) and I'm downloading an hour show to my TV. It's slow but not unbearable (about 10 hours for 1hour at standard).

I also downloaded a 30min show to my Mac. Took just a hair over 30 mins. It played instantly on my Mac on mPlayer.

I deleted that show from my ReplayTV and was still able to play streamed thru my Mac. And now that my Replay sees my Mac as another Replay (although it's really not) it prompts me with the option (which won't work, I know, since it's really just my Mac) to schedule recordings remotely.

I also never realized DVArchive has a built in webserver so I can manipulate my Replay from this PC or from any other on my network.

Sure, ReplayTV has plenty of shortcomings, it's company is in much worse shape. I'm not telling people to go out and buy Replay's instead of TiVo's. I still love my TiVo. A lot.

But it really makes me sad to use a free 3rd party software (DVArchive) and ReplayTV's software that hasn't had even minor updates in probably 2 years to be able to download shows from users on the Internet, play shows on my Mac, stream shows back to my Replay, and control my Replay from my computer if I choose.

Sadly the ONLY part of that TiVo can even remotely do now is playing shows on computers - and my computer (an iMac) has no support


----------



## tonyf3

cwoody222 said:


> This just makes me sad
> 
> For years I've had a networked ReplayTV 5040 model. I've never been able to get Internet Video Sharing or streaming from my DVArchive to work. But I've never really tried since I never had a need to use them.
> 
> Today I spent no more than a half hour figuring it out. It was easy. I never just really put any thought into it before.
> 
> So today I used a great website (not one for you to POOP on, not even LIghtly) and I'm downloading an hour show to my TV. It's slow but not unbearable (about 10 hours for 1hour at standard).
> 
> I also downloaded a 30min show to my Mac. Took just a hair over 30 mins. It played instantly on my Mac on mPlayer.
> 
> I deleted that show from my ReplayTV and was still able to play streamed thru my Mac. And now that my Replay sees my Mac as another Replay (although it's really not) it prompts me with the option (which won't work, I know, since it's really just my Mac) to schedule recordings remotely.
> 
> I also never realized DVArchive has a built in webserver so I can manipulate my Replay from this PC or from any other on my network.
> 
> Sure, ReplayTV has plenty of shortcomings, it's company is in much worse shape. I'm not telling people to go out and buy Replay's instead of TiVo's. I still love my TiVo. A lot.
> 
> But it really makes me sad to use a free 3rd party software (DVArchive) and ReplayTV's software that hasn't had even minor updates in probably 2 years to be able to download shows from users on the Internet, play shows on my Mac, stream shows back to my Replay, and control my Replay from my computer if I choose.
> 
> Sadly the ONLY part of that TiVo can even remotely do now is playing shows on computers - and my computer (an iMac) has no support


cwoody,
This makes me sad as well.That's the kind of functionality we're beging for..(and paying for) You're right, they could do it if they wanted to. I guess they don't.
Jobs should just buy them already.


----------



## cwoody222

And an FYI: my 1 hour IVS show took almost 12 hours exactly to download. Not bad for my first try and from a complete stranger. It was a 1600mb file.

I actually watched the file complete downloading. The instant it was done I could play it.

Very cool.

If I had a friend w/ a compatible Replay (just like I have a ton of friends with TiVo) I'd use this feature ALL THE TIME.

I really hope TiVo opens up ToGo for their 9-household sharing thing.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

cwoody222 said:


> This just makes me sad
> 
> For years I've had a networked ReplayTV 5040 model. I've never been able to get Internet Video Sharing or streaming from my DVArchive to work. But I've never really tried since I never had a need to use them.
> 
> Today I spent no more than a half hour figuring it out. It was easy. I never just really put any thought into it before.
> 
> snip
> 
> But it really makes me sad to use a free 3rd party software (DVArchive) and ReplayTV's software that hasn't had even minor updates in probably 2 years to be able to download shows from users on the Internet, play shows on my Mac, stream shows back to my Replay, and control my Replay from my computer if I choose.
> 
> Sadly the ONLY part of that TiVo can even remotely do now is playing shows on computers - and my computer (an iMac) has no support


but you said it yourself - DVArchive is a 3rd party app so Replay is immune from legal hassles and those developers can just code away and not deal with support or legal issues either. There are 3rd party apps for the TiVo to do some if not all of the same - I have no idea on the downlaod from the internet part so this does exist for the TiVo, just not as nicely packaged.

If TiVo ever put out an authorized way to pull shows from internet file sharing sites the lobby would be full to the ceiling with lawyers the next day. TiVoToGo has a lot more polish needed, needs a Mac desktop Now and so forth for sure, but I do not follow how you exepect TiVo to put out something like DVArchive and stay in business. It sucks and it takes a lot more resources to keep the ahole content providers off their backs but I wouldrather see TiVo still in business and at least working on productive things at this slow pace - then be fighting copyright battles and not getting anything done.


----------



## cwoody222

I'm not necessarily asking TiVo to put out an authorized way to pull shows from Internet file sharing sites. And - for the record - that's not what ReplayTV does. Replay lets you send and receive shows from other ReplayTV units in or outside of your LAN.

Actually TiVo has said they want to do this I think (this was the NFL's gripe) but they've said they plan to limit shows to being sent to 9 other users. And I'm sure they'll make it so you need to have a 'buddy list' of sorts. ReplayTV actually does that too, there's just sites that help you make 'buddies' with other people 

But there's no reason why I can't reasonably expect TiVo to let me do other things I can currently do with my ReplayTV. Like:

1) control my unit via a program or web interface from PCs or Macs within my LAN
2) store shows on my PC or Mac and stream them back to TiVo's on my LAN
3) play shows I download from TiVo on my Mac


----------



## AnteL0pe

tchwojko said:


> I certainly hope that if and when we get Mac support, it's better than the Windows version. I have one Windows laptop running 2000. I gave TivoToGo a try there.
> 
> I installed Tivo Desktop, no problem, I could find everything fine.
> 
> I installed the recommended codecs for Windows 2000, installation seems to go fine.
> 
> Then I try to actually play something back, and I get an incomplete (47 minutes of the supposed hour in the first case, 19 minutes of 60 in the second) squashed (480x480) playback. Unofficial support on these boards talk about getting random third party tools to do some of the messing around with codecs and registry keys, though I don't have any desire to install even more possibly spyware-laden tools to do experiment to find exactly the right combination of things that'll work.
> 
> It's not worth my time to mess around with it.


Exactly, while I have playback on a PC laptop, i'm no where near DVD production. Hell, even playback is messed up (480x480) and messing with codecs, etc. trying to get DVD production working messed up simple playback!

Honestly, I'm waiting for my elegant Mac solution. Import the file to my Mac, pop it open in iMovie, edit the thing and export to iDVD. If we get that, all will be forgiven.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

AnteL0pe said:


> Honestly, I'm waiting for my elegant Mac solution. Import the file to my Mac, pop it open in iMovie, edit the thing and export to iDVD. If we get that, all will be forgiven.


and it is this elegant solution that may be why it is taking so long to get Apple DRM glue code working as Apple would like it to.


----------



## iDriveX

Still no news on the horizon? We're moving into our third month here...


----------



## Lon

..to continue with the sub-thread of alternative Mac solutions... EvolutionTV (similar to Elgato's EyeTV) http://www.miglia.com/products/video/evolutiontv/index.html looks like it integrates nicely with iMovie.


----------



## SavMan

ZeoTiVo said:


> and it is this elegant solution that may be why it is taking so long to get Apple DRM glue code working as Apple would like it to.


In which case, they know when Apple's new software is coming out (Q2 this year) so they should be able to promise it to us by year's end, since they would have gotten the developer's copies long ago.


----------



## doobs

I am sooo bummed not to be able to use TiVo togo on my Mac. I've switched myself (and three other users( from PC to Mac, and damn it I'm not going back. 

I've always thought of TiVo as an advanced enough application of technology to really be on the higher technical level that I've found the Mac to be on. I'm not a software engineer, but just from a pure user perspective I've been able to do much more on my Mac than I could get done on the PC. Heck , it would "crash" and require a lengthy re-boot so often that I couldn't be productive. or desirous of doing more on that Windows PC thang. 
-- but that's just my emotional Windows sucks speel that I've developed since I've become a Mac fan.

I'm just really bummed because I excitedly started my TiVo togo prep in January, and just got the new required TiVo O/S release. I thought that was the last step after I had gotten my TiVo to be on my wireless network. Hell, I didn't need to spend that money, I could have just let the TiVo continue to dial up. 

I guess I feel really misled by TiVo. I've paid my TiVo memberships, bought the TiVo boxes, run phone lines (and now paid to make them wireless in anticipation of TiVo togo). This no TiVo to go on Mac is just a lousy business practice!! I've always felt that TiVo was there for its customers. Guess I'm naive.


----------



## kb7rjf

All I want is the ability to archive my shows from the Tivo onto a DVD, for viewing on a computer, dvd player, toaster, whatever. All I *DO NOT* want is to have to go out and buy a Windows machine to do this. Is Tivo gonna send me a cheque for a Windows box to let the tivo2go work? I think not. The irony of the whole DRM thing, as we all know is I can use the 'output to vcr' option, and feed a DVD recorder directly. 

WHY is a Linux client too much to ask?? Source would be nice, but I can live with a Tivo-Provided binary. Heck, a plug-in for Xine would be enough. I don't even *REALLY* need support (other than Mac-OSX of course) for my non-Intel boxes.

I guess I go buy a video capture card for the Powerbook.


----------



## kb7rjf

Of course, the truest irony is that the Tivo has a ppc inside. The SAME processor used in the Mac.
One would think that the Mac version should have been FIRST! :+)


----------



## amgqmp1

Not saying you should have to do this...and it's not cheap...but, how many Mac users don't/can't use Virtual PC? I've always thought Apple should bundle that on new systems...here's another prime example of why. 

Self-appointed elitism aside...don't ya'll just wanna get shows off yer TiVo? Aren't there quite a few other circumstances that come up where it would be great if there was just *one* program for the Mac OS that did what you want...when there's two dozen for Windows?


----------



## amgqmp1

kb7rjf said:


> Of course, the truest irony is that the Tivo has a ppc inside. The SAME processor used in the Mac.
> One would think that the Mac version should have been FIRST! :+)


The S2 DirecTiVos ditched PPC chips in favor of cheaper/faster MIPS chips. Aren't the stand-alone's the same?


----------



## kb7rjf

Probably right, they probably are using MIPS. Thus, I should be getting Tivo2Go for my MIPS R-10000 based SGI (irix) box first? :+) :+)

Virtual PC. UGH. All the cost, and none of the throughput. Better off sacrificing one of my Intel Linux boxes to the Devil, er M$. Somewhere above Unix_Beard observed the dismal performance of VPC, and others have noted that they get bad to non-existant playback on TTG/VPC. FWIW, I got a 800MB (30 min) show to tranfer to the powerbook. It took 16 hours. I use a 100MB ethernet. A video capture box would take 30 min, and cost about what VPC and a copy of XP would cost. 

Anyone try WINE?


----------



## AnteL0pe

kb7rjf said:


> Anyone try WINE?


I was thinking of giving that a go, on either a mac or linux box i have at home, sometime this weekend. Honestly though, I have a windows box, and it hasnt been easy to get that one to produce a usable disk. I finally got it down so that I can do SVCDs and I can, in theory, now produce an mpeg that i _should_ be able to use to create a DVD, but its all such a hassle. I'll just keep storing .tivo files on my mac until I can actually do something with them.....


----------



## tchwojko

amgqmp1 said:


> when there's two dozen for Windows...


I'll stick with my Mac with one program that works, rather than Windows' 24 that don't quite.

Except for the spyware, viruses and worms. Those all seem to run just fine.


----------



## amgqmp1

tchwojko said:


> I'll stick with my Mac with one program that works, rather than Windows' 24 that don't quite.
> 
> Except for the spyware, viruses and worms. Those all seem to run just fine.


I guess I have low standards?   

I think it would behove TiVo to make a formal announcement for their Mac version...unless the news is truly that bad...perhaps they haven't decided when/what it will be yet? Sounds crazy...but very probably true...I mean, what do they care if they tick off 0.6% of their customers?


----------



## Unix_Beard

amgqmp1 said:


> I guess I have low standards?
> 
> I think it would behove TiVo to make a formal announcement for their Mac version...unless the news is truly that bad...perhaps they haven't decided when/what it will be yet? Sounds crazy...but very probably true...I mean, what do they care if they tick off 0.6% of their customers?


First, there are very few if any programs/utilities that "don't exist" on the Mac while there are a dozen on Windows. If there is a need for a package, it exists for the most part.

Second, Mac users are an unusually high number of Tivo customers. Your .6% is really about 15% of all Tivo customers are Mac users. Hard to believe, eh? Its documented in some article floating around. I suppose the story is that Mac users are more apt to embrace new and advanced technology than the Windows users that bump into each other in the aisles of Best Buy.


----------



## SullyND

Unix_Beard said:


> First, there are very few if any programs/utilities that "don't exist" on the Mac while there are a dozen on Windows. If there is a need for a package, it exists for the most part.


AutoCAD.


----------



## kb7rjf

I would agree. The appeal of the MAC has always been superiority in the media and graphics areas. The PC has, until fairly recently been on top in the bang/buck race, but the new series of Mac, coupled with the release of OS-X eliminated that barrier. When I purchased my Powerbook, I had a set of platform independent requirements- size, weight, cd/dvd burner, and the like. After much shopping, the choice came down to the G4 Powerbook, and the Sony Vaio. There was a $1.00 difference in cost. By giving Apple the $1.00 extra, i got a DVD burner. I also got the most stable, easy to use machine I have seen in a long time. OS-X lets me use all my favorite applications, and It is usually pretty easy to move new ones as needed. My old laptop, was a pc, running Linux, and Windows when I really *HAD* to. Graphics tools for the Mac have always been superior to those for the PC/Windows. Mac processors have always been more powerful, the only issue has been cost.

My next big machine very well may be a Mac. (Or an IBM pSeries powerserver, but, that's just a Mac on steroids...)


----------



## kb7rjf

I'm *SURE* that there are non-PC cad programs that are as good as or better than AutoCAD out there. Downside is, they may be more expensive. I agree AutoCAD is a good package. It may be the only truly usefull Windows App out there. 

(I know, that's not fair. There are a *lot* of usefull windows things, but they appeal to a very small minority of Windows users. For every person running a datalogger or ICE development utility, there are 1000 folk playing games)


----------



## Unix_Beard

Trust me. You don't want to go the VPC route. Look at all the threads on faulty codecs and a myriad of other problems. Then imagine that on a machine that is unbearably slow. Add to that its a flawed program on a slow machine running Windows XP. 

And AFAIK, I haven't heard of anyone actually burning a DVD with VPC and T2G.


----------



## juanian

I have been working with trying to use VPC (XP Home) on a PB 15" 1.5GHz G4 with TivoToGo, and it has been a rough ride. Although I am using an older version of VPC (5), I don't know if the newest version runs better.

I can run TiVo Desktop fine, and I can download shows. (I don't recall if this was much slower than downloading using the TiVo web interface or not; I'm saddled with a '140, so I only have USB 1.1 speed.) Playback performance just isn't enough to view shows. The playback is just too slow and jerky. Maybe it is the codec I am using (dscaler5), but I've pretty much given up on playback using WMP 10 with VPC.

Also, something that is a part of the TiVo Desktop installation seems to also restrict where the file being played is located. I had downloaded the file using the Web interface on the mac, and I shared the folder that I had put the shows on (to avoid having to transfer the file to a VPC drive). When I try and play it, I get the message "The network resource type is not correct" (since VPC shares Mac folders by making them look like a network drive). Plus, sharing folders with VPC has *always* caused problems for me (since VPC 2) with odd errors reading and/or writing reliabily. (I regularly have XP crash and restart when copying large files *to* one of these shared folders from a Windows command prompt -- I must use the drag-and-drop method to move big files out of Windows.)

Maybe a better codec will help, maybe VPC 7 will help. I haven't seen any other tales of 'succcess' using VPC for viewing shows. As far as burning DVDs with VPC, I expect that you will have to wait *days* for the transcoding of the shows, and who knows if VPC can perform USB transfers fast enough to reliably burn a DVD to an external drive.

Disappointed that I don't have TiVoToGo? You bet -- when I go out of town and want to bring shows with me, I have to transfer them to my wife's PC so we can watch them (on a smaller-then-15" screen). 

Juan 
(not the 'other' Juan)


----------



## cwoody222

I wouldn't hold your breath for playback via VPC regardless of the version or the speed of your Mac. VPC just doesn't have the horsepower for that.


----------



## tchwojko

Are we there yet?


----------



## AnteL0pe

SullyND said:


> AutoCAD.


He did say "for the most part" and lets be honest, no one uses AutoCAD....



mahermusic said:


> Not one. Period.
> 
> Every program that I need is out in Mac OS X (with a better version, might i add), including my music notation software that I use constantly.


One area the Mac is really lacking in is full featured media burning. Toast is crap compared to Nero...


----------



## SullyND

AnteL0pe said:


> He did say "for the most part" and lets be honest, no one uses AutoCAD....


No one uses AutoCAD? What world are you living in? AutoDesk has more than 6 million users, the vast majority of them working on some form of AutoCAD based system (Architectural Desktop, Land Desktop, Mechanical, etc, etc.). Odds are that if you are in a building that was built/renovated within the last 10 years it was, at some point, drawn in AutoCAD. But I digress. My response was limited solely to the "if any" comment... Come on! That's just ludicrous.

"First, there are very few if any programs/utilities that "don't exist" on the Mac"


----------



## AnteL0pe

SullyND said:


> No one uses AutoCAD? What world are you living in? AutoDesk has more than 6 million users, the vast majority of them working on some form of AutoCAD based system (Architectural Desktop, Land Desktop, Mechanical, etc, etc.). Odds are that if you are in a building that was built/renovated within the last 10 years it was, at some point, drawn in AutoCAD.


Exactly my point, no one uses it......

P.S. I was joking


----------



## thehand

to play your graphedit .mpg files on your mac, djoPlayer http://tc.versiontracker.com/product/redir/lid/527749/djoPlayer.zip a GUI for mplayer works a lot better than VLC player


----------



## SullyND

AnteL0pe said:


> P.S. I was joking


Well you would probably have been right with no one _wants_ to use it. 

There are actually several superior products (Some of which started on the Mac) but AutoCAD is the Microsoft of the drafting world.

P.S. I like Macs... Now recommend Macs for home use... Just think there are some uses that are better handled by PCs.


----------



## TheSlyBear

> One area the Mac is really lacking in is full featured media burning.


Are you serious? Have you checked out DVD Studio Pro?


----------



## AnteL0pe

bootedbear said:


> Are you serious? Have you checked out DVD Studio Pro?


Yes i have, and i noticed its $500 price tag...


----------



## TheSlyBear

No one said anything about price... the discussion regarded availabilty. You think AutoCAD is free? And for the flexibility of DVDSP, $500 is a bargain.

For less features, but suitably powerful for most hobbyists, iDVD does a great job for a ridiculously small price; free in fact with a new machine.

The "there's no software available for the Mac" urban legend is worthy of a MythBusters episode.


----------



## jfunkk99

Virtual PC? Are you serious? You'd be lucky to _play_ a .tivo file let alone convert it to something else. Anyways, I think the reason for the no Mac support is that Winblows already had a DRM solution available. I mean cmon, this is Microsoft, of course they have a way of controlling content. Apple on the other hand is a little more hesitant to adopt those practices (yes I know, the music store) and hence we have to deal with the fact that we are no longer the valued customers in this business. The TV studios, RIAA, MPAA, etc are. Until we as consumers refuse to pay for content that forces us to jump through hoops to use it the way we want then we are forever doomed to this outcome.


----------



## AnteL0pe

bootedbear said:


> No one said anything about price... the discussion regarded availabilty.


Im talking about software comparable to Nero on the PC, theres nothing like that on the Mac, Toast is pathetic. $500 media burning software isnt what I was referring to.



> The "there's no software available for the Mac" urban legend is worthy of a MythBusters episode.


I never said there was no software for the Mac, Im just saying that there are still areas where Mac software is *really* lacking. The fact that PC users can get Nero for $100 (or much cheaper depending on rebates) and do far more than a Mac user with Toast (for the same exact price) is a problem.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Whats the problem with Toast? Works good for me. 

And for DVDs, why wouldn't I just use iDVD and iMovie? Why would I want my CD burning software to be a one-stop video shop?


----------



## AnteL0pe

Unix_Beard said:


> Whats the problem with Toast? Works good for me.


What it does it does reasonably well, but once you start using something like Nero you see where Toast should be. I'm just saying, for the same price Toast is *way* behind Nero



> And for DVDs, why wouldn't I just use iDVD and iMovie? Why would I want my CD burning software to be a one-stop video shop?


Those apps are great for the hobbyist, but when you want a little more control you will find that they (especially iDVD) arent that flexible. Theyre designed for the home user, I want just a little more than that, Nero has it and Toast doesnt.


----------



## tonyf3

tchwojko said:


> Are we there yet?


Unfortunately....No. Doesn't look like it.
It's been over 2 months now. They haven't got a clue.
Or rather,...I'm sure they do... they just won't tell us.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Well, I'm still holding out hope that Tiger is the holdup. If Tiger comes and goes without TTG for Mac, I'll be worried. 

It does bug me that Tivo says TTG support for Humax DVD units is "COMING SOON!!" but they can't say the same for Macs. I mean, why would that have priority. The machine (Humax) IS a DVD burner. Shouldn't the Mac users be given priority here? 

And I still don't understand why they can't give a brief description of what the challenge is. Perhaps if they let the community know the challenge/problem then suggestions can be made?


----------



## thehand

new versions of ffmpegx and MpegStreamclip are just out for the mac. they are very much improved! it seems they might be watching this forum.


----------



## Unix_Beard

thehand said:


> new versions of ffmpegx and MpegStreamclip are just out for the mac. they are very much improved! it seems they might be watching this forum.


What do they do for Mac users who lack TTG?


----------



## thehand

Unix_Beard said:


> What do they do for Mac users who lack TTG?


unfortunately I have to turn on the PC for that part but just for a couple minutes.


----------



## ComputerTech

Well that's how TiVo views Mac and personally I don't blame them. Why would TiVo spend R&D dollars to devlope compatibality with a platform which has almost no market share in the home consumor market. It doesn't make business sinse and that's why they haven't done it.

You Mac people just need to set your sights on bigger and better things, I am sure Dell has some good sales going on. Check them out, you will be happier.

I hope Mac people don't take this personally....


----------



## SafariKC

Actually it's NOT how TiVo views Mac users. 

Quite honestly you should Troll in another forum.


----------



## TheSlyBear

ComputerTech said:


> You Mac people just need to set your sights on bigger and better things, I am sure Dell has some good sales going on. Check them out, you will be happier.


Are you freakin' serious?


----------



## audioscience

ComputerTech said:


> You Mac people just need to set your sights on bigger and better things, I am sure Dell has some good sales going on. Check them out, you will be happier.
> 
> I hope Mac people don't take this personally....


That's the best thing I've read all month!

Honestly though, if you own a mac how can you expect to have software for it? Haven't you noticed yet how it takes 3 to 6 months for most software titles to come out on Mac after they have been released for Windows? You don't have a software title called "Virtual PC" because Mac's are rolling in the options.

I understand most reasons for owning a Mac, but software availability sure isn't one of them...


----------



## westside_guy

ComputerTech said:


> You Mac people just need to set your sights on bigger and better things, I am sure Dell has some good sales going on. Check them out, you will be happier.


Except for the fact that some of us Mac users fled the Windows world some time ago...

Funny you mention Dell. Before I bought this Powerbook (my first Mac), I had an Inspiron 3800. Keyboard failed three times - third time it was out of warranty, but fortunately Dell settled a class action lawsuit which allowed me to get it replaced at no cost. The main board failed once (fortunately in warranty). USB port failed (out of warranty). DVD combo drive stopped being recognized by the computer (out of warranty).

Basically my Dell was a piece of crap.

I was a DOS and then a Windows programmer from about 1988 until 2000. Finally gave up and tried desktop Linux. Lot of good there, some of it is really painful though. Decided to try OS X, and finally found a great OS. Basically it's like desktop Linux without the pain. 

Edit: fixed date typo


----------



## Unix_Beard

audioscience said:


> That's the best thing I've read all month!
> 
> Honestly though, if you own a mac how can you expect to have software for it? Haven't you noticed yet how it takes 3 to 6 months for most software titles to come out on Mac after they have been released for Windows? You don't have a software title called "Virtual PC" because Mac's are rolling in the options.
> 
> I understand most reasons for owning a Mac, but software availability sure isn't one of them...


Really? Funny stuff. You mean I need to wait 3-6 months for Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Filemaker, Word, Excel, and every other major app out there? You are wrong on all counts since there are many options and we don't have to wait 3-6 months for anything but games and Tivo software.


----------



## Unix_Beard

westside_guy said:


> Basically it's like desktop Linux without the pain.


Exactly. MacOS X allows me to do my work without a Windows box or Linux box. Thats a good thing.


----------



## thehand

what if the mac never was and we just had DOS


----------



## AnteL0pe

ComputerTech said:


> Well that's how TiVo views Mac and personally I don't blame them. Why would TiVo spend R&D dollars to devlope compatibality with a platform which has almost no market share in the home consumor market.


Actually Macs make up a substantial share of the market of desktop machines, and an even larger portion of TiVo owners.



> It doesn't make business sinse and that's why they haven't done it.


Up until now, TiVo has had simultaneous releases, it makes good "business sinse" [sic] to keep 15%-20% of your installed base happy, and thats what they should do.



> You Mac people just need to set your sights on bigger and better things,


Thats why we're mac users, we already have 



> I am sure Dell has some good sales going on. Check them out, you will be happier.


You can put bird droppings on sale too, i wont buy that either. Happier? Wahahahahahahahahha.....


----------



## Sethb

Frankly, I find all the anti-Mac arguments to be missing the point. Even if TiVo decides it's not worth their time/money to make a Mac client, that's a legitimate argument to have, but they won't even share that much. Even if you think that Mac users are stupid, you have to admit that TiVo isn't communicating well with its customers in this case.

TiVo won't even yield a Yes/No on whether or not a Mac version is under development. Period. Doesn't that seem like a reasonable question to answer, regardless of what the answer is?

I provide IT services for a living, if someone came to me at work, and asked me a question about when or if I had a service available, and I just stared at them blankly (which is what TiVo is doing to us on this issue) I'd be summarily fired, and with just cause.

*Even if the answer is No, we still deserve an answer.*

Had I know that TiVo wasn't going to make TTG support available to Macs, I'd have gotten a Humax DVD-R burner unit, rather than my 140 hour Series 2.


----------



## wtb

My opinion (for what it's worth) is that TiVo is having problems maintaining the security of the video on Macs and don't know yet how they are going to solve that problem.

My 2 cents.


----------



## cwoody222

Sethb said:


> TiVo won't even yield a Yes/No on whether or not a Mac version is under development. Period. Doesn't that seem like a reasonable question to answer, regardless of what the answer is?


Actually, supposedly, it's a "Yes". Whether we all believe that or not is another story. But they SAY they're working on it.

Is the TiVoToGo feature available for Apple Macintosh computer?

The TiVoToGo feature will initially be available for Windows PCs only. TiVo is working hard to make the TiVoToGo feature available on TiVo Desktop for Mac in the future but no release date is available at this time.


----------



## timg

cwoody222 said:


> Actually, supposedly, it's a "Yes". Whether we all believe that or not is another story. But they SAY they're working on it.
> 
> Is the TiVoToGo feature available for Apple Macintosh computer?
> 
> The TiVoToGo feature will initially be available for Windows PCs only. TiVo is working hard to make the TiVoToGo feature available on TiVo Desktop for Mac in the future but no release date is available at this time.


Unfortunately, that statement is still quite a bit short of an actual committment to deliver a Mac client for TivoToGo. It's been more than a year since Tivo demoed the TivoToGo service and over 2 months since they released the Windows client. If they still can't commit to a schedule for the Mac client, I have to wonder if they ever will.


----------



## donsullivan

Does anyone remember the delay between the release of HMO for Windows and HMO for Mac? I called tonight to cancel the service on my S2 box, with the reason being no TTG for Mac, and no committment to actually deliver it. 

One thing I was told as part of the effort to keep me active was that this same delay occurred when HMO was released. To be honest I didn't have a Series 2 SA box that could have used it then so I'm not clear on what that timeline was.


----------



## cwoody222

There was no delay. They came out simultaneously.

And most TiVo users agree that the Mac version is better.


----------



## thehand

what I want to know is: 

is TIVO better than Replay TV


----------



## cwoody222

I perfer the TiVo interface and TiVo's much more reliable to catch all your shows and to know what's going to record and when. And WishLists are awesome.

However, using ReplayTV with DVArchive (even on Macs) and if you can get an old model with Internet Video Sharing and Commercial Advance, well then, that's just icing on the cake.

It depends on what you want your DVR to do.


----------



## tonyf3

Sethb said:


> Frankly, I find all the anti-Mac arguments to be missing the point. Even if TiVo decides it's not worth their time/money to make a Mac client, that's a legitimate argument to have, but they won't even share that much. Even if you think that Mac users are stupid, you have to admit that TiVo isn't communicating well with its customers in this case.
> 
> TiVo won't even yield a Yes/No on whether or not a Mac version is under development. Period. Doesn't that seem like a reasonable question to answer, regardless of what the answer is?
> 
> I provide IT services for a living, if someone came to me at work, and asked me a question about when or if I had a service available, and I just stared at them blankly (which is what TiVo is doing to us on this issue) I'd be summarily fired, and with just cause.
> 
> *Even if the answer is No, we still deserve an answer.*
> 
> Had I know that TiVo wasn't going to make TTG support available to Macs, I'd have gotten a Humax DVD-R burner unit, rather than my 140 hour Series 2.


Well said Seth. 
As stated in some earlier posts, I hope the delay has something to do with the upcoming Tiger release. Or if not,.. that Apple has their own PVR up their sleeve. 
Or some type of licensing deal like the Comcast deal announced yesterday.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/15/tech/main680282.shtml


----------



## tonyf3

I think something like this, is what we're waiting for.

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000670031981/


----------



## tonyf3

Memo to Steve Jobs: Buy TiVo!

from Cnet

http://news.com.com/Commentary+Memo+to+Steve+Jobs--buy+TiVo/2030-1069_3-5594278.html


----------



## Unix_Beard

From an article on Business 2.0:

"...I think these companies are focusing too much on the numbers and missing the more promising opportunity. Why? Because rolling out a product for the Mac platform ensures a certain buzz and élan, which begets more buzz, which begets sales. Let me explain. According to Apple, there are about 12 million active Mac users. Not a lot, that's for sure. But among them are most of the influencers -- high-profile bloggers, most (if not all) technology journalists, and, of course, the hipsters.

Look at Delicious Monster (www.delicious-monster.com), which makes software that manages everything in your digital library -- as long as it's on a Mac. The software became a smash hit primarily because it is Mac only.

Being part of this so-called cult of Mac, I know I'll try out pretty much any Mac-related product or software. Precisely because of our small numbers, Mac users are willing early adopters. A Mac product, if done right, can easily attract half a million users within a few weeks without the developer spending any marketing dollars."

Wise words.


----------



## MacinTiVo

Hey, has anybody tried Mplayer? There is a pre-compiled version out on versiontracker. There is an open location option, and I'll bet you could paste the URL for a program from your TiVo web interface.

There is also a tivo-mplayer that shows a feature like the now playing list.

tivo-mplayer.sourceforge.net

I got it to compile. by following the Mac OS X instructions. I don't have a network interface for my TiVo yet though. Can any of you give this a shot, and report your findings? I just may have to go out and buy a USB wireless adapter for my TiVos


----------



## Lon

MacinTiVo said:


> Hey, has anybody tried Mplayer? There is a pre-compiled version out on versiontracker. There is an open location option, and I'll bet you could paste the URL for a program from your TiVo web interface.
> 
> There is also a tivo-mplayer that shows a feature like the now playing list.
> 
> tivo-mplayer.sourceforge.net
> 
> I got it to compile. by following the Mac OS X instructions. I don't have a network interface for my TiVo yet though. Can any of you give this a shot, and report your findings? I just may have to go out and buy a USB wireless adapter for my TiVos


I am afraid that there is nothing in that project will allow you to fetch/stream or watch TiVoToGo *.tivo* files (files downloaded with TiVo Desktop or with TiVo's web interface). It uses it's own streaming server (requiring a hacked TiVo) to get around the unmentionable encryption issues.


----------



## tonyf3

Mac software development schedule says ???????
How long till a Mac beta of TiVo togo 2.0 is released ??????
No idea?? Tiger got your tongue??
Pitiful.


----------



## thehand

now why don't they make a Mac hack for type .tivo files. the mplayer mentioned is intended for the older .ty files as is TyStudio. 

Tivo2Go files are .tivo files


----------



## falconbrad

tonyf3 said:


> Well said Seth.
> As stated in some earlier posts, I hope the delay has something to do with the upcoming Tiger release. Or if not,.. that Apple has their own PVR up their sleeve.
> Or some type of licensing deal like the Comcast deal announced yesterday.
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/15/tech/main680282.shtml


I worry that this means that they will devote all of their time to developing software for this new platform... If they have any intention of releasing Mac software, and I'm not sure they do, then it will probably be sidelined in favor of the Comcast stuff... I hope something better comes out... honestly. The thing that keeps me with a Tivo is the fact that it operates better than anything else that's out there. But make no mistake, if something better presents itself, I won't hesitate to drop Tivo and go with the better deal (as well as convince others to do the same).


----------



## ehlers

MPEG2 Works Advanced - 4.0.1 on versiontracker for mac osx

>>Export2QT [- MPEG1/MPEG2/VRO/ReplayTV/TiVo/VOB/Hitachi VOB and VRO files to ANY QuickTime codec You have installed] [NEW!]


----------



## Lon

ehlers said:


> MPEG2 Works Advanced - 4.0.1 on versiontracker for mac osx
> 
> >>Export2QT [- MPEG1/MPEG2/VRO/ReplayTV/TiVo/VOB/Hitachi VOB and VRO files to ANY QuickTime codec You have installed] [NEW!]


This does *not* work for TTG (or TiVo web access) *.tivo* files. _caveat emptor_


----------



## tonyf3

Unix_Beard said:


> From an article on Business 2.0:
> 
> "...I think these companies are focusing too much on the numbers and missing the more promising opportunity. Why? Because rolling out a product for the Mac platform ensures a certain buzz and élan, which begets more buzz, which begets sales. Let me explain. According to Apple, there are about 12 million active Mac users. Not a lot, that's for sure. But among them are most of the influencers -- high-profile bloggers, most (if not all) technology journalists, and, of course, the hipsters.
> 
> Look at Delicious Monster (www.delicious-monster.com), which makes software that manages everything in your digital library -- as long as it's on a Mac. The software became a smash hit primarily because it is Mac only.
> 
> Being part of this so-called cult of Mac, I know I'll try out pretty much any Mac-related product or software. Precisely because of our small numbers, Mac users are willing early adopters. A Mac product, if done right, can easily attract half a million users within a few weeks without the developer spending any marketing dollars."
> 
> Wise words.


Wise words indeed.
I wonder what Mike Ramsay thinks about this.


----------



## tonyf3

3 Months....and nothing. Amazing. TiVo togo on Mac is pipe dream,.. and it appears on windows a pain and not worth the effort. Thanks TiVo,.. what a letdown.


----------



## audioscience

tonyf3 said:


> and it appears on windows a pain and not worth the effort.


TivoToGo works just fine for me on Windows XP. I've really had no problems other than getting a good codec when I initially set it up. My transfer rates with a 540 series 2 are in the 6Mb range. No complaints here.

You Mac guys should just forget about TTG for now and come back in a month or two to see if it is around. Hopefully that will save you a lot of grief from checking up on it everyday. Just forget about it and do something else and it will probably be around sooner than later.


----------



## Unix_Beard

audioscience said:


> You Mac guys should just forget about TTG for now and come back in a month or two to see if it is around. Hopefully that will save you a lot of grief from checking up on it everyday. Just forget about it and do something else and it will probably be around sooner than later.


What do you think we've been doing for the last three months?


----------



## mahk

Amen.

Hopefully the imminent release of Tiger will bring some good news ... although I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Well, apparently the Creative Zen users get the nod over Mac users. Lame.


----------



## tonyf3

audioscience said:


> TivoToGo works just fine for me on Windows XP. I've really had no problems other than getting a good codec when I initially set it up. My transfer rates with a 540 series 2 are in the 6Mb range. No complaints here.
> 
> You Mac guys should just forget about TTG for now and come back in a month or two to see if it is around. Hopefully that will save you a lot of grief from checking up on it everyday. Just forget about it and do something else and it will probably be around sooner than later.


Ok, good for you. But,..how's the playback, viewing size, screen ratio, etc. Are you really happy with it? Or could it have been done better, and for everyone.


----------



## mahk

Tiger released.

Deafening silence from Tivo.

Big surprise.


----------



## AnteL0pe

mahk said:


> Tiger released.
> 
> Deafening silence from Tivo.
> 
> Big surprise.


Ummmm, not yet. Comes out the 29th according to apple.com


----------



## SavMan

AnteL0pe said:


> Ummmm, not yet. Comes out the 29th according to apple.com


Yes, and now Apple has no reason (not that they had any in the first place, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt for a moment) to keep TiVo from announcing that they really had T2G Mac ready all this time, but big ole' mean Apple said they couldn't talk about it because Quicktime 7 (advertised on Apple's site for months) was required and that would only come out with Tiger. The apologists have been claiming for the past three months that this is all Apple's fault, and that once Tiger was announced, TiVo would be off of the gag order and could announce T2G Mac.

Also, notice that Apple will have developed and released an entire new operating system in the same timespan it's taken for TiVo to NOT develop a way for us to transfer the MPEGs TiVo stores to our computers.

Pathetic.


----------



## scheckeNYK

Here's a thought. If we do get TTG w/Tiger, there's no way its not integrated to iDVD. iDVD comes free on equipped machines, meaning that Mac users wouldn't have to buy a $50 piece of software to achieve full functionality of TTG. But if they've delayed the announcement till Tiger debuts, then yes, we would have to buy additional software. Our purchase comes at $129 (or less for 10.4 upgrade) so the Windows folks can't turn around and yell bloody murder that we got TTG for free. Of course we get tons of other added functionality for out $129, but that's not the point. Also the presence of QT 7 is probably a major issue. I hope we have some answers at NAB!


----------



## AnteL0pe

scheckeNYK said:


> Here's a thought. If we do get TTG w/Tiger, there's no way its not integrated to iDVD. iDVD comes free on equipped machines, meaning that Mac users wouldn't have to buy a $50 piece of software to achieve full functionality of TTG.


That isnt necessarily true. I hope to see integration wit iApps, but the rumors say that all we have been waiting on is QT 7.



> But if they've delayed the announcement till Tiger debuts, then yes, we would have to buy additional software. Our purchase comes at $129 (or less for 10.4 upgrade) so the Windows folks can't turn around and yell bloody murder that we got TTG for free.


Ya... not really. You will get a hell of a lot more for your $129 than just TiVo2Go. I know I would be upgrading to Tiger even if TiVo2Go never came out. So from a pure economic decision, Tiger costs $129 and Tivo2Go gest $0 from that pie.



> Of course we get tons of other added functionality for out $129, but that's not the point.


Ya, it kinda is. Again, from my example above. Would you be upgrading to Tiger if TiVo2Go wasnt a factor (which it very well may not be)? If so, then the $129 price tag has nothing to do with TiVo2Go. Maybe some people werent planning on upgrading, and they will if it brings TiVo2Go functionality. Those people could attribute some of the cost to TiVo2Go at that point.

In the end though, I hope TiVo2Go does come as a result of Tiger coming out. I hope that TiVo2Go is fully integrated with iApps. And i hope it pisses off Win users. And i hope they do complain. I'll be sure to remind them that "they chose their OS, they got what they deserved." Or some other such worthless argument that has been pointed at Mac users.


----------



## SavMan

scheckeNYK said:


> Here's a thought. If we do get TTG w/Tiger, there's no way its not integrated to iDVD.


If we were getting T2G with Tiger, it'd be announced by now. There is no conceivable reason why TiVo would be sitting on the news if they had it.



> iDVD comes free on equipped machines, meaning that Mac users wouldn't have to buy a $50 piece of software to achieve full functionality of TTG.


No, they have to buy a $79 suite of software. iDVD 5 doesn't come preloaded, you buy it as part of iLife. That's on top of the $129 for the OS.



> But if they've delayed the announcement till Tiger debuts, then yes, we would have to buy additional software. Our purchase comes at $129 (or less for 10.4 upgrade) so the Windows folks can't turn around and yell bloody murder that we got TTG for free.


Still not gonna happen, but remember, they got T2G for FREE... to burn DVDs cost them $50. We'd have to pay $129 just to get the basic functionality, plus $79 to burn DVDs.

Either way, I just want an answer from TiVo when we will see T2G Mac.


----------



## gonzotek

SavMan said:


> Still not gonna happen, but remember, they got T2G for FREE... to burn DVDs cost them $50. We'd have to pay $129 just to get the basic functionality, plus $79 to burn DVDs.


Only win2000 and greater users got it for free, under that definition. Below 2000(ME,98,95), they would have had to upgrade or be in the same boat as mac users: able to transfer files via the web interface, but unable to do anything with them once transferred. Just mentioning a technical point of order. There are many pcs out there still running 98 (and at least a few still running 95 and *shudder* ME)


----------



## scheckeNYK

AnteL0pe said:


> That isnt necessarily true. I hope to see integration wit iApps, but the rumors say that all we have been waiting on is QT 7.


This is a classic which came first, chicken or the egg? We weren't getting QT 7 in a standalone upgrade. All we were have been waiting on on was QT 7, which was waiting on 10.4



AnteL0pe said:


> Ya... not really. You will get a hell of a lot more for your $129 than just TiVo2Go. I know I would be upgrading to Tiger even if TiVo2Go never came out. So from a pure economic decision, Tiger costs $129 and Tivo2Go gest $0 from that pie.


It's still an added cost to the end user. With 10.3 and below there is no TTG functionality, thus making it an antiquated OS for those wishing to use it in conjunction with Tivo's latest offering. If a Mac user wants to use TTG they must buy Tiger - for all its merits or just for TTG. Call it planned obscelesance if you will.



AnteL0pe said:


> Ya, it kinda is. Again, from my example above. Would you be upgrading to Tiger if TiVo2Go wasnt a factor (which it very well may not be)? If so, then the $129 price tag has nothing to do with TiVo2Go. Maybe some people werent planning on upgrading, and they will if it brings TiVo2Go functionality. Those people could attribute some of the cost to TiVo2Go at that point.


Personally, having worked for Apple previously I will be using my connections to get 10.4 for free so there's no cost either way. But if there's no TTG solution out of the box i'll wait till 10.4.1 (or later) before upgrading. I waited a good 4-6 months before upgrading to Panther. A feature as useful as TTG would help bridge the gap.



AnteL0pe said:


> In the end though, I hope TiVo2Go does come as a result of Tiger coming out. I hope that TiVo2Go is fully integrated with iApps. And i hope it pisses off Win users. And i hope they do complain. I'll be sure to remind them that "they chose their OS, they got what they deserved." Or some other such worthless argument that has been pointed at Mac users.


At least you see the bigger picture here. Despite its dependance on QT7, TTG's release will be dictated by the potential sales of Tiger boxes if anything. As for Windows users, I could care less. I've got far more productive work to do on my Mac than to have a pointless vendetta against folks who don't see the benefit of Apple.


----------



## scheckeNYK

SavMan said:


> No, they have to buy a $79 suite of software. iDVD 5 doesn't come preloaded, you buy it as part of iLife. That's on top of the $129 for the OS.


I recall having iDVD preloaded on my 17-inch PowerBook with 10.2 and still there after clean installing Panther. I suppose with the debut of the iLife suite they have yanked it from the out of the box line-up, but a current employee told me its pre-installed on machines with SuperDrives. What does anyone think about the rumored blu-ray drives coming on G5s now? Also, if they add iDVD functionality, do you think that will port to DVDSP4? I have no inention of touching iDVD since I use DVDSP exclusively.


----------



## Fofer

scheckeNYK said:


> All we were have been waiting on on was QT 7, which was waiting on 10.4...
> 
> With 10.3 and below there is no TTG functionality...
> 
> If a Mac user wants to use TTG they must buy Tiger...
> 
> At least you see the bigger picture here. Despite its dependance on QT...


Its worthwile to mention that all of this talk about TiVoToGo for Mac relying on Tiger and QuickTime 7 was/is sheer conjecture on the part of some members here. It has no basis in any real announcement, implied or otherwise, from TiVo or Apple. Furthering this assumption will only serve to set Mac customers up for inevitable disappointment.

Personally I'm betting that TiVo is actually going to rely on _Microsoft_ updating the Windows Media Player for Mac. It's DRM capabilities will need to be on par with it's PC counterpart in order for this to happen.

Sure, I'd love for TiVoToGo to be based on Apple/Fairtunes DRM and Quicktime, but I don't see it happening.


----------



## Rangers4me

Well folks you have been waiting for an answer, and I have it for you. David Courtney, TiVo CFO was a guest lecturer at my University today, and I asked him about Mac Tivo ToGo support. He said that it is very expensive to develop, and it is very doubtful that we will get Tivo ToGo for the mac anytime soon.

So its up to us, the users, to come up with either a way for the mac to read .Tivo files, or a way to convert them.


----------



## Fofer

Rangers4me said:


> Well folks you have been waiting for an answer, and I have it for you. David Courtney, TiVo CFO was a guest lecturer at my University today, and I asked him about Mac Tivo ToGo support. He said that it is very expensive to develop, and it is very doubtful that we will get Tivo ToGo for the mac anytime soon.
> 
> So its up to us, the users, to come up with either a way for the mac to read .Tivo files, or a way to convert them.


Great work, Rangers4me. Sort of sad that it takes a college student attending a guest lecture to get an answer that we've been clamoring for, for months.

That said, I wish he would have clarified and said it's the _DRM_ that's expensive to develop. Extracted files (extracted via other means we can't discuss here) play just fine on a Mac in QuickTime Player (with the MPEG-2 plugin) or mplayer.

TiVo, I hardly knew ye.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Someone in another thread speculated jokingly that Tivo might think the ADC membership and Developer's previews were too expensive. I didn't think it was humorous then because I've run across many companies that act accordingly. One company didn't want to even upgrade their single test Mac to Panther (this was 2 weeks ago) to test a javascript bug in the newest Safari. (This was a contractor for a HUGE nationwide charity organization.)

So, it seems as if the bean counters are holding this up. If this statement is true this seems to be a definitive no.


----------



## SavMan

Rangers4me said:


> ...it is very doubtful that we will get Tivo ToGo for the mac anytime soon.


Damn it, I had always hoped I was wrong. So much for TiVo... they're losing two subscriptions come July. I hope the deal with MS was worth it.


----------



## chessplayer

Rangers4me said:


> David Courtney, TiVo CFO was a guest lecturer at my University today, and I asked him about Mac Tivo ToGo support. He said that it is very expensive to develop, and it is very doubtful that we will get Tivo ToGo for the mac anytime soon.


 Thank you for asking him about that, and letting us know.

It's disappointing to hear that, but at the same time it's a breath of fresh air to get a straight answer for once instead of being strung along with "we're working on it"!

Which leads to the question of whether "we're working on it" is a flat-out lie. If money is the issue, why use any resources working on it?

It is better to know the truth, so we can look for other alternatives, than to be misled.


----------



## AnteL0pe

Fofer said:


> Personally I'm betting that TiVo is actually going to rely on _Microsoft_ updating the Windows Media Player for Mac. It's DRM capabilities will need to be on par with it's PC counterpart in order for this to happen.


There is no way we will see another version of WMP for the Mac.



Rangers4me said:


> Well folks you have been waiting for an answer, and I have it for you. David Courtney, TiVo CFO was a guest lecturer at my University today, and I asked him about Mac Tivo ToGo support. He said that it is very expensive to develop, and it is very doubtful that we will get Tivo ToGo for the mac anytime soon.


Damn it..... SavMan, you still have that link on how to pull video out of the firewire port on a Comcast DVR?



> So its up to us, the users, to come up with either a way for the mac to read .Tivo files, or a way to convert them.


Unless someone wants to port the DirectShow filter, which I imagine is imposible without some source or documentation, this isnt going to happen.


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## ZeoTiVo

Unix_Beard said:


> Someone in another thread speculated jokingly that Tivo might think the ADC membership and Developer's previews were too expensive. I didn't think it was humorous then because I've run across many companies that act accordingly. One company didn't want to even upgrade their single test Mac to Panther (this was 2 weeks ago) to test a javascript bug in the newest Safari. (This was a contractor for a HUGE nationwide charity organization.)
> 
> So, it seems as if the bean counters are holding this up. If this statement is true this seems to be a definitive no.


I doubt it is that. TiVo could hire a contractor that is already in the ADC. Heck, they could get 4 or 5 candidates out of this thread probably.
It seems to me the expensive part is writing the DRM code since none exists now that TiVo can make use of on the Mac platform. Microsoft had it and cut a deal with TiVo, probably smiling inwardly that MS knew TiVo could not make a similar deal with Apple.(I doubt TiVo would actually sign anything giving MS exclusivity of TTG) 
So I will now step out of the way and let you all rant and rave. Though starting up a petition or letetrs or phone calls into TiVo would make more of an impression. I wonder if Mac users canceling subscriptions would spur TiVo toward developing or if it would make them see less motivation to develop it since they had even fewer Mac users.

anyway if you all start a petition to drop DRM altogether from the product Let me know so I can sign it. Though I still worry if that would unleash the content providers on tiVo.


----------



## Unix_Beard

I don't understand the issue. What is the added cost? I assume Tivo employs programmers full-time. I also assume that they would hire programmers that understand the technology.


----------



## cwoody222

But TiVo took the 'easy way' and used an existing DRM scheme that only works with Windows.

They didn't develop their own (you know, 'cause they only had a year to do it and they ain't that quick).

They're not about to spend $$$ to develop a seperate solution JUST for Mac users.

So basically until their current provider (MS) makes their product Mac compatible (highly unlikely), we're S.O.L.

All because TiVo couldn't create their own method to protect files in 12 months. That's just sad.


----------



## gonzotek

cwoody222 said:


> But TiVo took the 'easy way' and used an existing DRM scheme that only works with Windows.
> 
> They didn't develop their own (you know, 'cause they only had a year to do it and they ain't that quick).
> 
> They're not about to spend $$$ to develop a seperate solution JUST for Mac users.
> 
> So basically until their current provider (MS) makes their product Mac compatible (highly unlikely), we're S.O.L.
> 
> All because TiVo couldn't create their own method to protect files in 12 months. That's just sad.


Why does everyone keep stating as fact that the DRM used by TiVo is a MicroSoft developed DRM? Is there some actual, technical evidence, or just the supposition that because it currently works on Windows only, it must have come from MS? Because the various DRM implementations that have come from MS so far have been examined by lots of people and look NOTHING like the .tivo way of doing things. There's also this, the resume of one Arthur Van Hoff, Principal Engineer of TiVo, which states that he (and I quote):


> "Designed TiVos DRM for in-home Media, DRM for Internet distributed content, content publishing, content encoding and encryption, and third party application strategy"


http://www.artfahrt.com/personal/resume-mar-2005.pdf

If there is some factual evidence somewhere that MS did in fact create the DRM used by TiVo for TTG, please please please point me to it.


----------



## Fofer

AnteL0pe said:


> There is no way we will see another version of WMP for the Mac.


Why not?


----------



## AnteL0pe

The issue is the DirectShow filter as I understand it.


----------



## dropd

gonzotek said:


> Why does everyone keep stating as fact that the DRM used by TiVo is a MicroSoft developed DRM? Is there some actual, technical evidence, or just the supposition that because it currently works on Windows only, it must have come from MS? Because the various DRM implementations that have come from MS so far have been examined by lots of people and look NOTHING like the .tivo way of doing things. There's also this, the resume of one Arthur Van Hoff, Principal Engineer of TiVo, which states that he (and I quote):http://www.artfahrt.com/personal/resume-mar-2005.pdf
> 
> If there is some factual evidence somewhere that MS did in fact create the DRM used by TiVo for TTG, please please please point me to it.


If you also look at that resume, you'll note that the resume basically states that van Hoff no longer works for TiVo.

So, Mr. Strangeberry being gone would again not be a good sign in terms of expecting any revelatory technology innovations from TiVo. This would include Mac TiVoToGo.


----------



## AnteL0pe

Fofer said:


> Why not?


Its not a priority for M$, they make $0 off of it and it costs them $$$. It wont happen.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

cwoody222 said:


> But TiVo took the 'easy way' and used an existing DRM scheme that only works with Windows.


and the existing scheme they chose was easily broken I might add, so it was not all that much better than what they could have writen that would work on both platforms and now they still have to write it anyway.

but it is not so much the cost of having a programmer on board or not already. It is the cost of the man hours to write the DRM.


----------



## Fofer

AnteL0pe said:


> Its not a priority for M$, they make $0 off of it and it costs them $$$. It wont happen.


The update from version 7 to version 9 was pretty significant, and it works reasonably well.

And the update I'm expecting (one day?) will be the one that brings Mac users access to Microsoft-DRM-encoded content. So we can play music from online stores OTHER than the iTunes Music Store, purchase legal movie downloads from the likes of CinemaNow, and even use "Plays for Sure" digital music devices.

So yes, Microsoft stands to make a lot of $$$ off if it. If only they'd build it.

Your assumption makes very little business sense. They also _lose $_ on every Xbox sold, but cranking them out is a huge priority for them. They make the money back on the game licensing. There's a bigger picture - an ecosystem - at play. And Microsoft understands that better than anyone!

Now, if they choose to bow out of a comparison simply because they can't compete and know their offering will pale by comparison (ie: Safari vs. MSIE) then that's a different story. And very sad. Not to mention disappointing to a customer hoping to benefit from the innovation bred by competition.


----------



## gonzotek

dropd said:


> If you also look at that resume, you'll note that the resume basically states that van Hoff no longer works for TiVo.
> 
> So, Mr. Strangeberry being gone would again not be a good sign in terms of expecting any revelatory technology innovations from TiVo. This would include Mac TiVoToGo.


Well, I don't know anything for sure, and I agree it does look like his employment stops at 2005, but his last message to the tivohme developers list is dated Mar. 26, and his latest Google Maps HME release is dated April 7. Regardless, TiVo developed things before he was involved, and Java has done alright for itself since he left its development team. TiVo still has a contest running for HME developers until May 1, we'll see what happens with HME after then(does it stagnate?, does development on the SDK continue?, does TiVo announce that they officially kill it off?, etc.)


AnteL0pe said:


> Its not a priority for M$, they make $0 off of it and it costs them $$$. It wont happen.


They could make money off their drm licensing. Opening up the Media Player music stores to Mac users would just allow that much more money to flow into their coffers.


----------



## dropd

gonzotek said:


> Well, I don't know anything for sure, and I agree it does look like his employment stops at 2005, but his last message to the tivohme developers list is dated Mar. 26, and his latest Google Maps HME release is dated April 7. Regardless, TiVo developed things before he was involved, and Java has done alright for itself since he left its development team. TiVo still has a contest running for HME developers until May 1, we'll see what happens with HME after then(does it stagnate?, does development on the SDK continue?, does TiVo announce that they officially kill it off?, etc.)
> They could make money off their drm licensing. Opening up the Media Player music stores to Mac users would just allow that much more money to flow into their coffers.


Yes, he released the Google Maps thing, but hasn't really been seen on the HME developer list since (and even when he was, his email address was a gmail address, not a tivo.com address. That could mean lots of different things though).

And the Tivo participation on the HME developer list has slowed to a trickle, with lots of interesting questions going completely ignored/unanswered. One gets the sense that the HME api is not a current priority for TiVo (that is, evidence is mounting that it's ALREADY stagnating).

It just seems that TiVo's sole focus is on money right now. Which is I guess what they feel they need to do financially. It's just that they way they're going about it is generating ill will unnecessarily.


----------



## AnteL0pe

Fofer said:


> So yes, Microsoft stands to make a lot of $$$ off if it. If only they'd build it.


This is doubtful. Remember, us Mac users are an incredibly small portion of the world



> Your assumption makes very little business sense. They also _lose $_ on every Xbox sold, but cranking them out is a huge priority for them. They make the money back on the game licensing. There's a bigger picture - an ecosystem - at play. And Microsoft understands that better than anyone!


I see the bigger picture, i see the market, i know the loyalty of Mac users, and I understand the way M$ is making money on the Xbox. The gamble you want M$ to take is that the investment in a Mac client now and down the road will be overshadowed by the money they may make off of the Mac market on DRM licensing and media. I dont think that revenue stream will amount to much. Mac users will buy iPods, they are far less likely to buy something else.

Mac user favor simplicity and useability, thats why they are Mac users. Mac users like the iTMS and will continue to use it. Not just because its from Apple, but because its easy and elegant. Show me one thing from M$ that has even been easy and elegant (besides mice and keyboards). I dont see the market that you think exists.

Mac users have almost no need for WMP at this point, and while your experience with it may have been ok, every Mac user I know hates the app because its total garbage. Updates come far after Windows releases and even the newest version wont play all the Windows Media formats. Whats the point? I think VLC does a better job at playing Windows Media on the Mac than WMP does.


----------



## gonzotek

dropd said:


> Yes, he released the Google Maps thing, but hasn't really been seen on the HME developer list since (and even when he was, his email address was a gmail address, not a tivo.com address. That could mean lots of different things though).
> 
> And the Tivo participation on the HME developer list has slowed to a trickle, with lots of interesting questions going completely ignored/unanswered. One gets the sense that the HME api is not a current priority for TiVo (that is, evidence is mounting that it's ALREADY stagnating).
> 
> It just seems that TiVo's sole focus is on money right now. Which is I guess what they feel they need to do financially. It's just that they way they're going about it is generating ill will unnecessarily.


No argument with that really. Looking through my archive of the developers list, he started using the gmail address as early as Feb. 10. Prior to that his email came from a tivo.com address, and had tivo-specific address information in his signature. but I agree, that doesn't really tell us anything useful about anything.


----------



## Fofer

dropd said:


> It just seems that TiVo's sole focus is on money right now. Which is I guess what they feel they need to do financially.


Heh. "Focus on money" usually has _something_ to do with financial priorities.

Just sayin'.


----------



## Fofer

AnteL0pe said:


> This is doubtful. Remember, us Mac users are an incredibly small portion of the world
> 
> I see the bigger picture, i see the market, i know the loyalty of Mac users, and I understand the way M$ is making money on the Xbox. The gamble you want M$ to take is that the investment in a Mac client now and down the road will be overshadowed by the money they may make off of the Mac market on DRM licensing and media. I dont think that revenue stream will amount to much. Mac users will buy iPods, they are far less likely to buy something else.
> 
> ...
> 
> Mac users have almost no need for WMP at this point, and while your experience with it may have been ok, every Mac user I know hates the app because its total garbage. Updates come far after Windows releases and even the newest version wont play all the Windows Media formats. Whats the point? I think VLC does a better job at playing Windows Media on the Mac than WMP does.


The Macintosh Business Unit is very successful and makes lots and lots of money off of the Office suite. Gates himself has defended it as a star performer. So what they should do is update WMP and (perhaps) include it with the purchase of Office.

That said, I hear your points. I'm just holding on to hope that Microsoft sees the business potential of giving Mac users more choice. WMP 9 isn't horrific (when compared to previous versions, or compared to having nothing at all) but it sure could use some improvement. Not to mention DRM compatibility, to potentially address some of the concerns suggested in this thread. I guess I'm hoping that the profit potential from the DRM is what would entice them to update it.

That said, yes, VLC works for some WMP-playable files, but there are some files where only WMP will play them. And it's those files that would benefit from an updated player.


----------



## cwoody222

gonzotek said:


> Why does everyone keep stating as fact that the DRM used by TiVo is a MicroSoft developed DRM? Is there some actual, technical evidence, or just the supposition that because it currently works on Windows only, it must have come from MS? Because the various DRM implementations that have come from MS so far have been examined by lots of people and look NOTHING like the .tivo way of doing things. There's also this, the resume of one Arthur Van Hoff, Principal Engineer of TiVo, which states that he (and I quote):http://www.artfahrt.com/personal/resume-mar-2005.pdf
> 
> If there is some factual evidence somewhere that MS did in fact create the DRM used by TiVo for TTG, please please please point me to it.


True. And this has been discussed before, just as I have mis-stated it before.

The DRM wasn't created by MS per se but I don't think it was fully created by TiVo either. I don't really understand the difference between the DRM and the "DirectShow Filter". In my less-technical mind anything that 'protects' the file is part of the DRM scheme.

Whether TiVo used something created by MS, used something created by another 3rd party that relied on a MS product (WMP), used something created by another 3rd party that TiVo knew didn't work with Macs, or created it themselves and left out Mac users on purpose is all the same to me.

TiVo could have supported Mac users if they wanted to. They choose not to.

It's pretty clear they didn't do it *solely* by themselves. Meaning their lack of Mac support is now tied to something out of their control. Which sucks.

At least if TiVo did it all themselves (again, they only had a full 12 months ) we'd have hope since it'd be in their hands.

But Mac TiVo ToGo's future now lies in the hands of someone else... that is, unless TiVo plans to spend money to make a Mac-exclusive solution (unlikely) or spend money to develop their own cross-platform solution (unlikely since the Windows version works 'fine' now).


----------



## Fofer

I've said this before but it bears repeating: the sucky part about all of this is that it comes down to DRM. 

Preexisting HACKS (ie prior to TiVoToGo) already prove that TiVo extractions play just fine on the Mac!


In time, Mac users will either (A) not care about extracting, (B) will hack a more lenient system to take their recordings "to go," or (C) will move on to the Next Great PVR.

AnteL0pe characterized Mac users as a more discerning bunch, favoring elegance and simplicity over raw feature-set. And for the most part that's true. As a die-hard Mac user though, I do see my future allegiance moving to another PVR. I don't like being closed out of anything due to miscellaneous "market forces" and will do what I have to do to enjoy all that the technology has to offer ME.


----------



## AnteL0pe

Fofer said:


> AnteL0pe characterized Mac users as a more discerning bunch, favoring elegance and simplicity over raw feature-set. And for the most part that's true. As a die-hard Mac user though, I do see my future allegiance moving to another PVR. I don't like being closed out of anything due to miscellaneous "market forces" and will do what I have to do to enjoy all that the technology has to offer ME.


Youre totally correct there. I am about to start investigating hacking my TiVo as it will offer me the ability to transfer shows off my TiVo, and to do it at far better transfer rates than TTG. Im also looking at the Comcast DVRs with their firewire port that can be used to pull unencrypted standard and HD content. Seems a bit more feature rich than TTG already.

Has TiVo jumped the shark?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Fofer said:


> I've said this before but it bears repeating: the sucky part about all of this is that it comes down to DRM.
> 
> Preexisting HACKS (ie prior to TiVoToGo) already prove that TiVo extractions play just fine on the Mac!
> 
> In time, Mac users will either (A) not care about extracting, (B) will hack a more lenient system to take their recordings "to go," or (C) will move on to the Next Great PVR.
> 
> AnteL0pe characterized Mac users as a more discerning bunch, favoring elegance and simplicity over raw feature-set. And for the most part that's true. As a die-hard Mac user though, I do see my future allegiance moving to another PVR. I don't like being closed out of anything due to miscellaneous "market forces" and will do what I have to do to enjoy all that the technology has to offer ME.





AnteL0pe said:


> Youre totally correct there. I am about to start investigating hacking my TiVo as it will offer me the ability to transfer shows off my TiVo, and to do it at far better transfer rates than TTG. Im also looking at the Comcast DVRs with their firewire port that can be used to pull unencrypted standard and HD content. Seems a bit more feature rich than TTG already.
> 
> Has TiVo jumped the shark?


I see both of these as reasonable options and reasonably stated without a bias I might add. 

as for Jumped the shark, Time will tell if susbcriptions start to fall off from this or not.


----------



## Fofer

AnteL0pe said:


> Has TiVo jumped the shark?


For me, TiVo jumped the shark when HMO/MRV was announced at CES more than 2 years ago, I asked about these new features coming to the DirecTiVo, and was met with blank stares. After 18 months of vague statements, I pretty much grokked what was going on... was happy to be able to hack my hardware. Yes, it works great for me -- best of all worlds, currently. But I have begun plotting my next "whole house" A/V config.

See, I'm one of those who appreciates the integration of the receiver/TiVo combo and can't even imagine going back to separate boxes.

That said, I understand my personal gripe is more with DTV than it is with TiVo. Then TiVo needs to get their cable card box out ASAP, or should've forged a better relationship with DTV.

If I'm going to "upgrade" to anything then I better not lose any "official" features in the process (ie: two tuners, speed, good picture, etc.)

(This, coming from a TiVo loyalist who the LA Times has said is keeping the company afloat during their darkest hour.)


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Fofer said:


> For me, TiVo jumped the shark when HMO/MRV was announced at CES more than 2 years ago, I asked about these new features coming to the DirecTiVo, and was met with blank stares. After 18 months of vague statements, I pretty much grokked what was going on...


I have the same misgivings about the Comcast deal. It will result in an integrated box with two tuners and HD (and cash flow for TiVo) so that is a good thing but Comcast will get to control what else the box can do. I grokked a bit as well from the press releases that mentioned the deal was specific about ad delivery but just kind of mentioned other features like HMO as an oh yah those too. I Know TiVo learned from the DirectTV deal but that does not mean they can force Comcast to take on other features.

and I realy was dismayed that it would take the cable card TiVo off the "Do or Die" status and sure enough just a few days later The FCC extended the deadline for Cable Companies to have to use Cable Cards without even the obligatory comment from TiVo.

So this saves TiVo by giving it the chance at easy cash flow but puts a big damper on things like an integrated two Tuner HD Stand Alone TiVo and TTG for Mac.


----------



## kb7rjf

I *STILL* think that the DRM is smoke in this case. I can play the recording into a vcr/dvd-r in real time, and not encounter the DRM issue. All of the material going INTO the tivo is stuff I could just as easily tape. All the tivo does for me is give me a really cool autoprogrammer, and save me buying tape/blank dvds. The fact that it took 14 hours to transfer a 30 minute show to my mac (and maybe in the next 100 years I'll be able to WATCH the thing) makes me wonder if it's even worth it?

Would the Betamax decision cover tivo as well? I see no reason why not.

I guess that I need to plug my vcr into my tivo for the stuff I want to keep, and /or get a video capture card for the computer. 
Is there a way to tell tivo to play the playlist from top to bottom? Then I could capture into the computer while I am at work.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

it is hard to trade VCRs(edit - oops meant VHS) over the internet. Video capture cards in PCs is on the list of stuff content providers want to see DRM added to. PC cards are supposed to respond to broadcasr flags on digital content sometime soon as well (it is the digital copies Content providers are worried about) I think TiVo built in DRM to the analog stuff just to have a consistent application as this moves on to HD content down the road.

there is no batch play. it is one at a time.
PS the 14 hours to move a 30 minute file is a network problem not a TiVoToGo problem.


----------



## Unix_Beard

What is this _VCR_ you speak of?


----------



## AnteL0pe

kb7rjf said:


> Would the Betamax decision cover tivo as well? I see no reason why not.


The DMCA has pretty much trumped most of what the Betamax decision gave to consumers. Untill the DMCA can be 100% struck down in court there is very little "fair use" anymore.


----------



## scheckeNYK

SavMan said:


> No, they have to buy a $79 suite of software. iDVD 5 doesn't come preloaded, you buy it as part of iLife. That's on top of the $129 for the OS.


http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0504macs.html



ThinkSecret said:


> As first reported over a month ago, the updated iMac G5, code-named Q45 C/D, will reach 2GHz, while video memory is doubled to 128MB and the card itself upgraded to ATI's Radeon 9600. All models will also feature Bluetooth 2.0 and will ship pre-installed with Tiger and iLife '05.


New Macs do ship with iLife. Of course now you're talking about the world's largest dongle for TTG, but there will be many people who are in this scenario who can benefit from it. I don't know what other people's systems are like, but I do know that my PowerBook did come complete w/iDVD. AFAIK Garage Band is the only thing not pre-loaded in those rare cases.


----------



## AnteL0pe

scheckeNYK said:


> AFAIK Garage Band is the only thing not pre-loaded in those rare cases.


GB and Keynote didnt come on older systems i believe. They are both part of iLife 05


----------



## Fofer

AnteL0pe said:


> GB and Keynote didnt come on older systems i believe. They are both part of iLife 05


Keynote isn't part of iLife. It was originally sold as just Keynote, and now version 2.0 comes with iWork (which includes Pages.)


----------



## AnteL0pe

Fofer said:


> Keynote isn't part of iLife. It was originally sold as just Keynote, and now version 2.0 comes with iWork (which includes Pages.)


Doh! Youre right! I bought iLife and iWorks together and got them confused.....


----------



## dylanemcgregor

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/425e17f82bf08

Article form the school paper where the CFO spoke. Here's how they are quoting him regarding Mac support.



> However, the overlap of users of Apple and TiVo has not been enough to strike any chemistry between the companies.
> 
> "We haven't committed to any plans [for integration] to it because of the cost," Courtney said.
> 
> He added that being able to watch media on Apple computers using TiVo seems unlikely "unless we find a way to record it under the current platform, and I don't think that will happen in the next few years."


Next few years??? If that is an accurate quote, ouch! Sorry Mac/TiVo users.  

-Dylan


----------



## Fofer

As far as Mac integration goes, I am happy with the current TiVo desktop for sharing iTunes and iPhoto libraries. It works well, has a small footprint, I can see all of my playlists (smart and otherwise) and I'm even playing AAC files (thanks to the installation of LAME.)

It's the "new" integration, that of viewing TiVo'ed files on my Mac, that the company's dropped the ball on. And thankfully I can hack right past them.

This "quote" does say much to me about TiVo's priorities though. And that's why I'm looking onto the horizon for my next PVR...


----------



## AnteL0pe

Years.... YEARS?! Well thats just fantastic. Now what is that other site where theres directions on hacking a TiVo? Jebus......


----------



## kb7rjf

unfortunatley, I am not allowed to ask you how you solved that particular problem, nor are you allowed to tell me; due to the restrictions of this forum. I wonder if you would be allowed to tell me where I might go to find this forbidden information without invoking the wrath of the moderators. 

I *DID* take the opportunity to purchase a couple of hdtv tuner cards, and I may end up hacking together my own pvr, but I *REALLY LIKE* the tivo programming service.


----------



## gonzotek

dylanemcgregor said:


> http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/425e17f82bf08
> 
> Article form the school paper where the CFO spoke. Here's how they are quoting him regarding Mac support.
> 
> 
> 
> However, the overlap of users of Apple and TiVo has not been enough to strike any chemistry between the companies.
> 
> "We haven't committed to any plans [for integration] to it because of the cost," Courtney said.
> 
> He added that being able to watch media on Apple computers using TiVo seems unlikely "unless we find a way to record it under the current platform, and I don't think that will happen in the next few years."
> 
> 
> 
> Next few years??? If that is an accurate quote, ouch! Sorry Mac/TiVo users.
> 
> -Dylan
Click to expand...

That quote is really confusingly ambiguous. Taken only in the context of the article, it could mean:
A tivo playing back media produced and/or stored on a Mac (e.g. a quicktime movie->TiVo playback)...
OR: Playing back tivo-recorded content on a Mac(.tivo->Mac playback)....

The comment about being 'able to record it under the current platform' makes me think he was alluding to moving files from the computer back to TiVo, not the other way around. But if we figure in the context of what the member who attended the talk, who posted about this earlier, it would seem to be the second. It would be excellent if TiVo would make a definitive, clear statement about it's intentions regarding Mac support.


----------



## kb7rjf

Agreed. Worst case, I'll use tivo for some shows, and the VCR for anything I may want to keep. 
Maybe someone will develop a linux solution for this problem, and we can compile it to run on os-x. THAT would, in my case, be best, because I could use any of my various machines. 


Windows-free and lovin' it!


----------



## Unix_Beard

unix_beard AT yahoo.com

If anyone wants to share any info on ways around our current limitation, I'd appreciate it.


----------



## e30mpower

OK, just got off the phone with TiVo... It had been a while since anyone had called, as I gather from the posts. At first I was put on hold while she tried to find out an exact date, but then was told that she doesn't have one but she "understood my frustration." And after apologizing profusely, which always softens me up, the call was over. At this point I can only assume that it's likely never to be released. I suppose I'll have to start looking for "alternatives," either to circumvent the lack of Mac support, or switch to a different DVR altogether. Too bad. Oh well, just thought I'd make that little snippet of TiVo's lack-of-progress.


----------



## Rangers4me

dylanemcgregor said:


> http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/425e17f82bf08
> 
> Article form the school paper where the CFO spoke. Here's how they are quoting him regarding Mac support.
> 
> Next few years??? If that is an accurate quote, ouch! Sorry Mac/TiVo users.
> 
> -Dylan


I am actually quoted in the article, right before the information about the Tivo 2 Go for the mac. I asked Mr. Courtney the question, and then the news-article writer interviewed me. I can tell you that I personally believe that what Mr. Courtney was saying was that there are no future plans for Tivo 2 Go on the mac, unless it becomes less cost prohibitive. He did go on to say that half the engineers at TiVo use macs to code for the system.


----------



## dylanemcgregor

Rangers4me said:


> I am actually quoted in the article, right before the information about the Tivo 2 Go for the mac. I asked Mr. Courtney the question, and then the news-article writer interviewed me. I can tell you that I personally believe that what Mr. Courtney was saying was that there are no future plans for Tivo 2 Go on the mac, unless it becomes less cost prohibitive. He did go on to say that half the engineers at TiVo use macs to code for the system.


So just to clarify. Did the reporter actually talk to Mr. Courtney, or is she quoting you, quoting him?

-Dylan


----------



## dropd

dylanemcgregor said:


> So just to clarify. Did the reporter actually talk to Mr. Courtney, or is she quoting you, quoting him?
> 
> -Dylan


I think it's obvious from reading the article that her direct quotes attributed to Courtney are quotes from the speech he gave to this group of UPenn students. It would be a MAJOR ethical violation for the reporter to attribute a "hearsay" quote directly to a person.


----------



## dylanemcgregor

dropd said:


> I think it's obvious from reading the article that her direct quotes attributed to Courtney are quotes from the speech he gave to this group of UPenn students. It would be a MAJOR ethical violation for the reporter to attribute a "hearsay" quote directly to a person.


I thought so too, but see Rangers4me quote from the other thread:



> I posted some more information in the other thread. I am actually quoted in the article, right before the information on the mac. The reporter interviewed me after I asked Mr. Courtney the question on Tivo2Go for the mac, so she is spewing the same exact information that I heard.


----------



## gonzotek

dropd said:


> It would be a MAJOR ethical violation for the reporter to attribute a "hearsay" quote directly to a person.


"Ethical" and "the Press" don't always go hand in hand these days, you know?  But I do agree.


----------



## Fofer

It seems the question was asked about TiVoToGo for Mac, and the question was asked (unfavorably.)

As far as viewing video content stored/created on a Mac onto a TiVo... the funny thing is, since DRM should be less of an issue, one would think TiVo would be all over this. (Not just for Mac, but for PC as well!) Why fuss with the content creators silly concerns (advertising, piracy, etc.) and instead leverage the consumers own content, and their ability to download content online.


But something tells me TiVo won't bother with this either.

In the meantime my modded Xbox (with XBMC) plays all of my Mac video (in addition to streaming lots of online video content) wonderfully.


----------



## MerlinMacuser

I got one of the new Comcast DCT6412 boxes for my main TV room and it is great. Different from Tivo for sure but mostly better in ways that really matter to me. The interface is not as simple but I'm smart enough to adapt. Watching Tivo in my study now is almost painful. I'm working on re-painting that room and when I'm done, I'm getting another DCT6412. Tivo's heading to the basement to live with my futon. lava lamp and Farrah Fawcett poster.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Merlin - does the Comcast box have a Firewire port? What makes it better than a Tivo?


----------



## AnteL0pe

Fofer said:


> As far as viewing video content stored/created on a Mac onto a TiVo... the funny thing is, since DRM should be less of an issue, one would think TiVo would be all over this. (Not just for Mac, but for PC as well!) Why fuss with the content creators silly concerns (advertising, piracy, etc.) and instead leverage the consumers own content, and their ability to download content online.


Ive yet to see a "Mac Only" set of steps for removing the DRM. I have done this using a Win PC, but it seems impossible on OS X or Linux because of a lack of DirectShow filters. If this isnt the case I would love to be enlightened.


----------



## cwoody222

Unix_Beard said:


> Merlin - does the Comcast box have a Firewire port? What makes it better than a Tivo?


Firewire, HD-recording, 2 tuners, price, etc. etc.


----------



## cwoody222

AnteL0pe said:


> Ive yet to see a "Mac Only" set of steps for removing the DRM. I have done this using a Win PC, but it seems impossible on OS X or Linux because of a lack of DirectShow filters. If this isnt the case I would love to be enlightened.


Ditto here. Using a WinPC is one thing, doing it solely on a Mac is nother. That's the holy grail right now, I think. If TiVo isn't doing anything to help us, someone WILL hack it eventually and Mac users will be able to enjoy non-DRM content.

And TiVo will have no one to blame but themselves.


----------



## Unix_Beard

cwoody222 said:


> Firewire, HD-recording, 2 tuners, price, etc. etc.


Yes, but he said "Watching Tivo in my study now is almost painful."

My cable company offers DVRs but not HD in my neighborhood. I have no use for two tuners. Firewire would be interesting.

Who makes these boxes for Comcast? I'd like to find out the model my cable company uses.


----------



## Fofer

AnteL0pe said:


> Ive yet to see a "Mac Only" set of steps for removing the DRM. I have done this using a Win PC, but it seems impossible on OS X or Linux because of a lack of DirectShow filters. If this isnt the case I would love to be enlightened.


I'm not using TiVoToGo to extract my shows. The methods that preceded TTG are much faster (but involve significant hackery.) Sadly, we must go elsewhere to discuss this.


----------



## Lon

Unix_Beard said:


> Who makes these boxes for Comcast? I'd like to find out the model my cable company uses.


I believe Motorola does (they make the DCT series boxes). I've 2 of the DCT 6208 (DVR, firewire and HD)


----------



## Unix_Beard

Have you tried yanking video out of the firewire port?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Unix_Beard said:


> Have you tried yanking video out of the firewire port?


SavMan had a link to a site that explained how to do it. It had multiple steps involved but looked straightforward enough. You can get non-DRMed HD and SD content with the method ready to use in most any Mac app. The weird irony here is that in 2006 some may be using a Comcast/TiVo to pull video out of the firewire onto the Mac as TTG won't work


----------



## Lon

Unix_Beard said:


> Have you tried yanking video out of the firewire port?


Yes, works fairly well. Using "iRecord" available from: http://macpvr.home.comcast.net/irecord.html (not anywhere near as functional as TiVo -- but great, usable)

You can play captured streams (.ts files) with VLC (I recommend latest build 0.8.1) http://videolan.org/vlc/

You can also watch live tv streams using an earlier version of VLC (0.7.2) and iRecord's author's vlc module (see http://macpvr.home.comcast.net/ )

HD broadcasts are tricky to watch live (don't always work well) but capture/playback fine -- and WOW what quality! (I have a 20in LCD  )


----------



## Rangers4me

dylanemcgregor said:


> So just to clarify. Did the reporter actually talk to Mr. Courtney, or is she quoting you, quoting him?
> 
> -Dylan


After the lecture, I went up to him and asked him a couple questions. One of them being, is there going to be Tivo 2 Go for the mac in the future? She is summarizing, his answer to my question, of which she overheard.


----------



## Quevar

I just sent store{at}tivo{dot}com an email asking them about TTG on the Mac and here is the reply I got from them:
"Thank you for your inquiry. TiVo is working hard to make the TiVoToGo(tm) feature available on TiVo Desktop for Mac. We are currently working on ways to enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers. This is absolutely one of our priorities at this time. We will let our customers know in our newsletter as soon as this feature is available. If you do not already subscribe to the newsletter, you can go here <I can't post links>**to do so. We apologize for any inconveniences this may have caused you. In the meantime, if you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us. Thank you for your time." (reply sent on April 15th at 3:30 PM)​They seem to be giving us very conflicting information. I'm hoping we'll see something come at the beginning of May (i.e. after Tiger is out). I'm only hopeful of this time frame cause it is the next one that I can be hopeful of.


----------



## timg

That's the same thing they've been saying since January.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Quevar said:


> I just sent store{at}tivo{dot}com an email asking them about TTG on the Mac and here is the reply I got from them:
> "Thank you for your inquiry. TiVo is working hard to make the TiVoToGo(tm) feature available on TiVo Desktop for Mac. We are currently working on ways to enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers. This is absolutely one of our priorities at this time. We will let our customers know in our newsletter as soon as this feature is available. If you do not already subscribe to the newsletter, you can go here <I can't post links>**to do so. We apologize for any inconveniences this may have caused you. In the meantime, if you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us. Thank you for your time." (reply sent on April 15th at 3:30 PM)​They seem to be giving us very conflicting information. I'm hoping we'll see something come at the beginning of May (i.e. after Tiger is out). I'm only hopeful of this time frame cause it is the next one that I can be hopeful of.


that is the same stuff as in the FAQ save for the "is absolutely one of our priorities at this time." which is not in the FAQ for some reason.


----------



## chessplayer

ZeoTiVo said:


> that is the same stuff as in the FAQ save for the "is absolutely one of our priorities at this time." which is not in the FAQ for some reason.


 Great weasel words. It's one of their "priorities" -- could be the very lowest of their priorities. And it's just "at this time" -- this doesn't sound very committed, now does it?


----------



## hawk4hire

Isnt that like giving a pre-pre-engagement ring? Maybe one day kind-of, sort-of we maybe, might can get married? And oh yes I fogot - You have to agree that I am also free to change the terms of our marriage at anytime I want to!  
Wonder which girl would accept that kind of proposal??? 

hawk


----------



## HDTiVo

hawk4hire said:


> Isnt that like giving a pre-pre-engagement ring? Maybe one day kind-of, sort-of we maybe, might can get married? And oh yes I fogot - You have to agree that I am also free to change the terms of our marriage at anytime I want to!
> Wonder which girl would accept that kind of proposal???
> 
> hawk


Works pretty well as long as you don't get 'em pregnant.


----------



## hawk4hire

lmao HD - that was too funny.... 

hawk


----------



## Jeffsters

DRM is a technology decision NOT a platform decision. You choose your DRM, either in house, OD, or third party, based upon your market requirements. PERIOD! TiVo choose a DRM that excluded a large percentage of their customers. Worse customers that have $$$$ to spend and are willing to spend it for cool technology, are media savvy, and have all the applications and hardware tools, to fully exploit what they're selling. I'm a product manager at a high tech cross-platform company and I have no problem saying this, in my view, was a VERY STUPID decision.


----------



## Jeffsters

Little correction here for TiVoBill. Apple's iTunes purchased music limitations are the result of the demands of the content owners so lets move past that now ok? Second, AAC is an open format that TiVo could support without question. I also find it amusing that TiVo would use Apple's enforcement of it's content providers as some sort of vindication for not doing something while at the same time using it's in bed strategy with Microsoft's DRM to justify the same when the show is on the other foot. In tother words, TiVo seems to be faulting Apple for using what they see as a hardware limited DRM scheme while at the same time quick to justify their use of a OS limited DRM when it suits them.


----------



## corjulo

I smell a class action suit coming. Tivo promised Mac support. As a stock holder I believe they mislead investor as to what the planned to deliver. I really hoped Tivo get's sued over this. As I have mentioned many times I called tivo three times prior to the release of Tivo to go and was assured mac support would be included. I purchased a new Tivo and Tivo stock, in part, based on that promise.

I believe I can file a complaint under Sarbane Oaxley with the FTC. I'll do some research and see if that possible.


----------



## Releaux

I'm disappointed in TiVo's recent announcement that they're not going to support TTG on Mac any time soon, but frankly I'm not all that surprised. They've been headed down the standard corporate path since they decided to start locking up the data streams with the Series 2. I understand the predicament they're in having to balance consumer and provider needs, but their market space is starting to get crowded.

For those of us who feel more strongly that our fair use rights not be hobbled by conglomerate pandering efforts, perhaps it's time to start talking about TiVo alternatives that are either mac-specific, mac-friendly, or at the very least, not mac-hostile.

I love my TiVo and its ease-of-use is great for casual show surfing, but if I want to dump the last five episodes of my favorite sit-com onto a DVD or hard drive for business trips (and I often "save up" episodes for consumption all at once), what am I supposed to do if TiVo doesn't care to support me?

I'll keep my 320 hour Series 2 with the lifetime subscription until it croaks, but I don't think I'll be getting another TiVo. Not just because of the Mac support thing, but that's certainly a pretty big part of it.


----------



## Unix_Beard

If someone could market a stackable addon to the MacMini that had the mpeg2 encoder hardware inside and could connect to the Mac via Firewire, that could be the answer. This company packages a remote and software and the problem is solved. This could even connect to a Mini over ethernet in another room. Maybe Apple has their eye on this. I have no idea of the feasibility but it sounds good to me. Perhaps Apple could make a modified mini? You could go right out the DVI port to a modern TV too.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

corjulo said:


> I smell a class action suit coming. Tivo promised Mac support. As a stock holder I believe they mislead investor as to what the planned to deliver. I really hoped Tivo get's sued over this. As I have mentioned many times I called tivo three times prior to the release of Tivo to go and was assured mac support would be included. I purchased a new Tivo and Tivo stock, in part, based on that promise.
> 
> I believe I can file a complaint under Sarbane Oaxley with the FTC. I'll do some research and see if that possible.


Problem is Tivo has never committed to actual TTG on Mac support nor has TiVo the company ever said it would not deliver TTG on Mac. Instead we have the stuff of the FAq saying things like "we are working on ways to implement it" it does not even say they are working on an actual implementation.

Then we have the CFO giving off the cuff remarks and he may even weasel out with he was not actually giving an interview and therefor it was not on the record.

so you are left with getting actual proof of the CSR calls and what they said and then having to go through discovery to actually find out what if any plans TiVo has for TTG on Mac.

The whole thing just sucks


----------



## corjulo

Unix_Beard said:


> If someone could market a stackable addon to the MacMini that had the mpeg2 encoder hardware inside and could connect to the Mac via Firewire, that could be the answer. This company packages a remote and software and the problem is solved. This could even connect to a Mini over ethernet in another room. Maybe Apple has their eye on this. I have no idea of the feasibility but it sounds good to me. Perhaps Apple could make a modified mini? You could go right out the DVI port to a modern TV too.


All of this is rumored to be ready for release from Apple in the Next few months


----------



## Fofer

corjulo said:


> All of this is rumored to be ready for release from Apple in the Next few months


Ha!

So is an Apple branded Segway with built-in wireless iPod.


----------



## amgqmp1

Unix_Beard said:


> If someone could market a stackable addon to the MacMini that had the mpeg2 encoder hardware inside and could connect to the Mac via Firewire, that could be the answer. This company packages a remote and software and the problem is solved. This could even connect to a Mini over ethernet in another room. Maybe Apple has their eye on this. I have no idea of the feasibility but it sounds good to me. Perhaps Apple could make a modified mini? You could go right out the DVI port to a modern TV too.


Am I missing something? Elgato already has this...

http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetv200


----------



## Unix_Beard

amgqmp1 said:


> Am I missing something? Elgato already has this...
> 
> http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetv200


Can you go out of this box to your TV? It just says "Watch TV on your Mac." I don't want to watch TV on my Mac. I want to watch it on my 50" Sony TV.

And besides, its not what I was talking about before. I personally don't want my home theater area cluttered with little boxes and power bricks. I was speaking of something that connected/stacked under the Mini perfectly so that it wasn't noticeable.


----------



## SavMan

amgqmp1 said:


> Am I missing something? Elgato already has this...
> 
> http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetv200


Yeah, they have a product... but it's not quite a DVR/HTPC killer yet. I think what Unix_Beard was talking about was something that would work like all other Apple products --- seamlessly. Nothing El Gato makes fits that bill.

I have my doubts as to the hardware capabilities of the mini being able to handle DVR operations, however. Slow, small drives and a system that's optimized to run as a personal computer does not usually make a good dedicated video recorder.

But we can all hope, can't we? TiVo's certainly not gonna help us any more.


----------



## tchwojko

Do you have any experience with EyeTV? I'm looking for more information about it, as I'm considering using it with a Mac Mini, a 250GB LaCie HD d2 (7200rpm, 10ms seek) and an LCD TV, as a second DVR that DOES let me take my recordings on my train commute.

I'm most curious about the UI for scheduling recordings, but any and all information would be helpful.


----------



## Unix_Beard

SavMan said:


> Yeah, they have a product... but it's not quite a DVR/HTPC killer yet. I think what Unix_Beard was talking about was something that would work like all other Apple products --- seamlessly. Nothing El Gato makes fits that bill.
> 
> I have my doubts as to the hardware capabilities of the mini being able to handle DVR operations, however. Slow, small drives and a system that's optimized to run as a personal computer does not usually make a good dedicated video recorder.
> 
> But we can all hope, can't we? TiVo's certainly not gonna help us any more.


I think an offloaded mpeg2 encoder would alleviate any concerns on the mini.

And you are right. I want to have something simple enough for my father-in-law to use when he comes over. I'm still not sure if EyeTV has video outputs for a TV. I suppose one could go out the DVI of the Mac, and have your TV be the Mini's monitor but I'd rather not have to futz with window or fullscreen mode, etc. If their software WAS REALLY GOOD then I would entertain the idea because then I could do internet type stuff on the TV.


----------



## Fofer

As long as you're discussing EyeTV, you should also keep in mind it's complementary product, EyeHome. (That's what SavMan was referring to.) It lets you watch your EyeTV recorded content on a TV, streamed over your network. Yeah it's cool in concept, but not nearly as polished as TiVo.


----------



## Unix_Beard

tchwojko said:


> Do you have any experience with EyeTV? I'm looking for more information about it, as I'm considering using it with a Mac Mini, a 250GB LaCie HD d2 (7200rpm, 10ms seek) and an LCD TV, as a second DVR that DOES let me take my recordings on my train commute.
> 
> I'm most curious about the UI for scheduling recordings, but any and all information would be helpful.


I'd like this info too. Maybe I ought to just buy one and do some testing and report back. I'll have to see the going rate on eBay in case I'm not satisfied.

At any rate, since Tivo doesn't care to comment on the matter further, I think its in our best interest as Mac users to come up with some alternatives.


----------



## tchwojko

The UI doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough. Regarding "futzing" with full-screen mode, a little AppleScript goes a long way...


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

tchwojko said:


> Do you have any experience with EyeTV? I'm looking for more information about it, as I'm considering using it with a Mac Mini, a 250GB LaCie HD d2 (7200rpm, 10ms seek) and an LCD TV, as a second DVR that DOES let me take my recordings on my train commute.
> 
> I'm most curious about the UI for scheduling recordings, but any and all information would be helpful.


I've got an EyeTV 200, but I don't use it as a PVR but rather as an MPEG2/MPEG4 encoder for some occasional web site work. It's actually a pretty good "live" encoder when you feed it a clean signal, and as the encoding is handled by the unit you don't need a particularly beefy CPU or drive if all you're doing is recording (watching while recording is another story, although the Mac mini should still be up for that. Mine is hooked up to a 1GHz G4 desktop, and it behaves fine in that regard.)

What little I've done with the PVR features doesn't terribly impress me -- it's essentially VCR style programming with some minor integration with TitanTV for guide data. I've only recorded a handful of shows using the PVR functionality (since that's not really why I bought it,) so there may very well be things I've missed, but it just didn't feel very full-featured or polished. I do use it to move shows from my TiVo to DVD once in a while -- I've got one output from the TiVo forwarded from my living room to the office and an IR path back using some off-the-shelf video distribution equipment, so I can do the "Save to VCR" thing on the TiVo and encode in real-time with the EyeTV, and I get pretty good results.

It may be that there's some 3rd party software that will work with the EyeTV to improve the PVR features, or there may not be, but I haven't gone looking.

For what it's worth, I bought the EyeTV to replace a Miglia AlchemyTV PCI card, which didn't work nearly half as well for the things I needed, as the card doesn't have an encoder on-board and the CPU has to handle all the compression. Not that that would work in a mini in any case, but it's not a product I'd recommend for PVR use, either.


----------



## ccooperev

amgqmp1 said:


> Am I missing something? Elgato already has this...
> 
> http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetv200


That thing cost almost as much as a Mac!


----------



## Fofer

Biggest problem with EyeTV as a potential TiVo replacement is that it doesn't do IR or serial control. So it can't change the channel on your cable bor or satellite receiver. It has a cable tuner built into it, so that might work for the folks with OTA TV or basic cable that requires no cable box. 

How many of us fall into that category, though?

For now I'm sticking with my DirecTiVo (hacked to comply to *my* wishes, thankyouverymuch.)


----------



## tchwojko

> How many of us fall into that category, though?


Me! I use analog cable. Tried digital cable, but it cost more, had more shows I didn't watch, and took longer to change channels.

It sounds like a little scripting, and it'll do what I want it to do. Thanks!


----------



## chessplayer

Has anyone here tried the eyeTV 500 for recording HDTV? I'm wondering whether to get the eyeTV 200 or eyeTV 500.


----------



## donsullivan

chessplayer said:


> Has anyone here tried the eyeTV 500 for recording HDTV? I'm wondering whether to get the eyeTV 200 or eyeTV 500.


I've got a 500. I've only tried it on the ATSC side vs cable and for the most part what I did record came out pretty well. It does seem to have a lot of trouble with synch drift when watching in real time. You need to periodically hit the jump to end button to get things resynched. If you're only listening you might not notice it but if you watch it will drive you crazy. I'm running it on a Dual 2GHz G5 with 4GB of RAM so it shouldn't have any trouble dealing with it.

When I've tried to export out to DVD I've had a whole lot of aspec ratio problems and it is not uncommon to end up with something that is cropped and letterboxed inside a 16x9 frame when you dump it out. I'm convinced that is partly a result of how the broadcaster sends the signal, especially when it's not a 16x9 formatted show. It got a little cleaner with the latest release of the software but it's still not something I would consider consistenly reliable just yet.


----------



## Justin Thyme

If we had Macs again I don't think my wife would tolerate the geeky approach of using stuff like ADS pyro pro to pipe highest resolution into a Mini. That would be my approach if I didn't want an intermediary box- though really the mini becomes a dedicated intermediary in this case. I'm surprized the other obvious alternative is not being discussed.

I'd probaby do a dual tuner HD unit from DTV and hack it for TivoWeb- and tivoweb doesn't care if a mac or a pc or a linux machine is at the other end of the wire. 

That would be $5 per month for 1-3 boxes, plus you have the ability to record HD quality resolutions. That blows away TTG capability and monthly cost, and will be so for the forseeable future. The DTV HD dual tuner 250gb boxes cost $600 to $800 on ebay, so that's a drag. 

PTVupgrade will do the hack for people who don't want to get their hands dirty.


----------



## tonyf3

Jeffsters said:


> DRM is a technology decision NOT a platform decision. You choose your DRM, either in house, OD, or third party, based upon your market requirements. PERIOD! TiVo choose a DRM that excluded a large percentage of their customers. Worse customers that have $$$$ to spend and are willing to spend it for cool technology, are media savvy, and have all the applications and hardware tools, to fully exploit what they're selling. I'm a product manager at a high tech cross-platform company and I have no problem saying this, in my view, was a VERY STUPID decision.


Exactly!
On another note just back from Vaco and...
I was recently in a Best Buy store and happened across the Microsoft Media Center.
After browsing it's literature and it's feature set I thought... There is no [email protected]#!* way
Steve Jobs is going to let Bill Gates even attempt to dominate this space. Apple will have something and it will be better. The year of HD right? Tiger 4/29.


----------



## Justin Thyme

tonyf3 said:


> ...There is no [email protected]#!* way Steve Jobs is going to let Bill Gates even attempt to dominate this space.


I couldn't agree with you more. That is the Steve Jobs I know. And the goon squads are out clamping down security.

I can't believe he won't put out at least an analog of a Lisa in the next two years. At the very least there must be a message that Apple has not conceded the living room to MS.

But Gates has done more than make an "attempt". He has a practical OS that scales down small enough for phones, and there are more than a few large vendors using his stuff on personal devices. It is hard to imagine how Apple will be able make offerings in each of those personal device spaces. The strategic position is the OS that controls access to the mondo storage. There will be only one of those boxes for each home, and there is still an even chance that Tiger with a suitable UI could carve out a significantly larger percentage of the market than Apple has achieved with PCs. Apple has an opportunity, but the I don't have a clear sense of what Jobs' view of the correct timing. The price point and the UI of the MC is laughable now, but that will evolve. Does Jobs let the market fiddle around as with MP3 and come in later with a mature end to end solution like IPod? Or is it time to put a Lisa like stake in the ground for videophiles so that everyone knows that there will be more than MS protocol devices to talk to.

I haven't a clue. But we have ringside seats. This battle of the seasonned titans should be very interesting.


----------



## tonyf3

I had missed the CFO comment thing. I was away on vacation. He's now saying he was misquoted of something. Nice spin on that one. If true they should be sued. (See other posts on suing tivo). If they're not going to offer the same level of service to Mac & Windows users, than the Mac users should get a discounted rate at the very least.


----------



## chessplayer

tonyf3 said:


> I had missed the CFO comment thing. I was away on vacation. He's now saying he was misquoted of something. Nice spin on that one.


 It's ludicrous.

First of all, he was clearly heard by both a poster here (Rangers4me) and the reporter, as saying it was very doubtful that there would be Mac support any time soon. To me, that seems like it would be hard to mis-understand.

Second, he says he was misquoted, but refuses to explain what he really said! Isn't it ridiculous to say one was misquoted without stating what one actually said?

Seriously, does anyone really believe that a satisfactory response to the article is to just say he was misquoted without explaining what he actually said?


----------



## Unix_Beard

It means Mac users should expect nothing.


----------



## Fofer

chessplayer said:


> It's ludicrous.
> 
> First of all, he was clearly heard by both a poster here (Rangers4me) and the reporter, as saying it was very doubtful that there would be Mac support any time soon. To me, that seems like it would be hard to mis-understand.


Not only that, _Rangers4me asked the question._ So I'm confident he was listening closely for the answer.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

chessplayer said:


> It's ludicrous.
> 
> First of all, he was clearly heard by both a poster here (Rangers4me) and the reporter, as saying it was very doubtful that there would be Mac support any time soon. To me, that seems like it would be hard to mis-understand.
> 
> Second, he says he was misquoted, but refuses to explain what he really said! Isn't it ridiculous to say one was misquoted without stating what one actually said?
> 
> Seriously, does anyone really believe that a satisfactory response to the article is to just say he was misquoted without explaining what he actually said?


TiVoPony never said the CFO said he was misquoted, it was something along the lines of his statements were not expressed in the interview with complete accuracy. So he clearly does not deny the quotes as reported but implies there was more to his statements and meaning then were expressed by the article.

So most likely he made some off the cuff, irratible comments then got surprised when they were repeated in the press. hehe.
Now TiVo is back to the "we have nothing to say other than we are working on it" and will not define what "working on it" is all about. That sucks for TiVo users who want a clearer picture of where TTG for Mac is. 
But the only way for teh CFO to clarify his comments would be to release details of what TiVo has in store for Mac platform. It is probably all drawing board design and/or negotiations or else they could announce a timeline at least. TiVo is between the rock and hard place of needing to now clarify what the CFO meant and the business practice of not revealing your strategic plans until you know you can execute them ahead of the info being useful to competitors. The whole thing just keeps sucking


----------



## davezatz

ZeoTiVo said:


> The whole thing just keeps sucking


And let's not forget Tivo Desktop 1.9.1 photos and music doesn't work under Mac OSX Tiger.


----------



## chessplayer

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVoPony never said the CFO said he was misquoted, it was something along the lines of his statements were not expressed in the interview with complete accuracy. So he clearly does not deny the quotes as reported but implies there was more to his statements and meaning then were expressed by the article.


 I don't want to spend too much time arguing the semantics of what it means to be misquoted, but TiVoPony said:



> His comments were not represented accurately at all in that article.


 That is a clear denial of the quotes as reported. There's a huge difference between saying his views were not expressed with complete accuracy and saying, as TiVoPony did, that the comments were _not at all accurate._ And I don't buy it, sounds like dishonest backpedaling to me.


----------



## Unix_Beard

So the Mac market is not big enough to invest dollars into but its too large to piss off and tell the truth? 

Tivo, this one is for you as we enter MONTH 4.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

chessplayer said:


> I don't want to spend too much time arguing the semantics of what it means to be misquoted, but TiVoPony said:
> 
> 
> TiVoPony said:
> 
> 
> 
> His comments were not represented accurately at all in that article.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a clear denial of the quotes as reported. There's a huge difference between saying his views were not expressed with complete accuracy and saying, as TiVoPony did, that the comments were _not at all accurate._ And I don't buy it, sounds like dishonest backpedaling to me.
Click to expand...

thanks for getting the exact wording. I still say it is specifically worded to mean the words in quotes were what he said but that somehow the complete meaning of what he was saying was not conveyed or possibly other clarifying statements were not recorded , etc.. That has happened to all of us, not in the public press maybe but we have been partially quoted and our full meaning lost.

anyhow denial of actual words said or not, the response still left nothing clarified and only the phrase "working on it" as the official word. TiVo is choosing to leave it as if the quotes never happened in the vein of the less said the better.


----------



## dropd

ZeoTiVo said:


> thanks for getting the exact wording. I still say it is specifically worded to mean the words in quotes were what he said but that somehow the complete meaning of what he was saying was not conveyed or possibly other clarifying statements were not recorded , etc.. That has happened to all of us, not in the public press maybe but we have been partially quoted and our full meaning lost.
> 
> anyhow denial of actual words said or not, the response still left nothing clarified and only the phrase "working on it" as the official word. TiVo is choosing to leave it as if the quotes never happened in the vein of the less said the better.


Yup.

The important and slightly weird part is that TiVoPony claims that the comments weren't represented properly, but then completely fails to represent the comments properly. Leaving the reader to draw the conclusion that the comments should and do stand on their own merits.


----------



## Fofer

davezatz said:


> And let's not forget Tivo Desktop 1.9.1 photos and music doesn't work under Mac OSX Tiger.


Is this confirmed, or just assumed? I'd hesitate to upgrade my media server if that's a sticking point.

I'd also be anxious to see if TiVo issues an update quickly or not.


----------



## rog

davezatz said:


> And let's not forget Tivo Desktop 1.9.1 photos and music doesn't work under Mac OSX Tiger.





Fofer said:


> Is this confirmed, or just assumed? I'd hesitate to upgrade my media server if that's a sticking point.
> 
> I'd also be anxious to see if TiVo issues an update quickly or not.


Start here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2798185&&#post2798185

and read down.

edit: Fofer, I just noticed you were in on the linked thread. I guess you already knew about that poster. That is the only account I've read/heard so far of TiVo Desktop being broken under Tiger. I have no reason not to believe those reports though. I guess we'll find out on Friday! <fingers crossed>


----------



## Patarker

And meanwhile, as a Mac owner, I got nothing out of the latest software update but screwed up channel changing and a bad taste in my mouth. Some reasonable acknowledgement of these issues is indeed long overdue. Whatever led to the problems with TTG for Mac and their lack of forthrightness about is water under the bridge, as far as I am concerned, as long as they come clean and make us aware of where things stand in what direction (and at what speed) things are moving. Hey, it's the Information Age! Make with the Information!


----------



## Unix_Beard

Fofer said:


> Is this confirmed, or just assumed? I'd hesitate to upgrade my media server if that's a sticking point.
> 
> I'd also be anxious to see if TiVo issues an update quickly or not.


How about you try it out and get back to us.


----------



## Fofer

rog said:


> Start here:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2798185&&#post2798185
> 
> and read down.
> 
> edit: Fofer, I just noticed you were in on the linked thread. I guess you already knew about that poster. That is the only account I've read/heard so far of TiVo Desktop being broken under Tiger. I have no reason not to believe those reports though. I guess we'll find out on Friday! <fingers crossed>


Heh. I added my silly post after you linked me into that thread.

When I get home tonight perhaps I'll test it out myself... I can install TiVo Desktop 1.9.1 on the Tiger PowerBook and see if it works. Although I'm pretty sure it won't work. I'll keep y'all posted.


----------



## Fofer

Unix_Beard said:


> If someone could market a stackable addon to the MacMini that had the mpeg2 encoder hardware inside and could connect to the Mac via Firewire, that could be the answer. This company packages a remote and software and the problem is solved. This could even connect to a Mini over ethernet in another room. Maybe Apple has their eye on this. I have no idea of the feasibility but it sounds good to me. Perhaps Apple could make a modified mini? You could go right out the DVI port to a modern TV too.


Something that looks like the minimate, maybe?


----------



## rog

Fofer said:


> Something that looks like the minimate, maybe?


looks cool... but where's the remote?


----------



## briguymaine

rog said:


> Fofer, I just noticed you were in on the linked thread. I guess you already knew about that poster. That is the only account I've read/heard so far of TiVo Desktop being broken under Tiger. I have no reason not to believe those reports though. I guess we'll find out on Friday! <fingers crossed>


Sad to say that it is true, at least for me. I installed Tiger this weekend and Tivo Desktop 1.9.1 crashes if you try to change a setting in the pref panel and does not show up under Tivo's Music & Photos. bummer...


----------



## tonyf3

I got yet another TiVo system update. 7.1b. on 4/26 I'm not sure what this one is about. Tiger is coming out 4/29. It would be nice if it addressed our issues, but it probably doesn't.


----------



## gonzotek

7.1b addresses pixelation for cable box users(unless your TiVo is a 540 or 590 model), as well as some other minor (and undisclosed) problems:


TiVoBill said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I wanted to give you all a heads up - there is a new version of software about to go out for Series2 standalone systems. Everyone with 7.1a will be getting it in the coming weeks.
> 
> The new code addresses a few minor bugs. For many of our Series2 products this will also take care of the pixilation issues some of you have reported when changing channels with a digital cable box. The only exceptions at this time are TiVo boxes starting with 540 and 590  for those boxes a separate, additional software release to address this issue is being worked on.
> 
> Thanks again to those that helped identify and isolate this issue for us -- it's appreciated.
> 
> Bill


New Software Update Rollout Starting


----------



## Fofer

Unix_Beard said:


> How about you try it out and get back to us.


I finally gave it a shot. For starters, the TiVo Desktop 1.9.1 installer fails when trying to install on Tiger. (The preference pane shows up though. And as previous posters have said, it doesn't actually work.)

Sigh.

Fingers crossed it gets fixed ASAP.


----------



## rog

Fofer said:


> I finally gave it a shot. For starters, the TiVo Desktop 1.9.1 installer fails when trying to install on Tiger. (The preference pane shows up though. And as previous posters have said, it doesn't actually work.)
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> Fingers crossed it gets fixed ASAP.


Let's hope it gets fixed tomorrow. There are no good excuses here!

How is everything else with Tiger? Did it break any other apps? I'll be trying it out tomorrow. My FedEx tracking number from Apple tells me the shipment is right on time...


----------



## sad05

The latest emailed Tivo newsletter is yet another slap in the face for Mac users. Not ONE mention of Mac support in the whole 'what's this Tivo-to-Go thing I've been hearing about' section.

It mentions Windows boxes only. No, Mac support is being worked on ... nothing.


Grrrrrrrrrr


----------



## ZeoTiVo

sad05 said:


> The latest emailed Tivo newsletter is yet another slap in the face for Mac users. Not ONE mention of Mac support in the whole 'what's this Tivo-to-Go thing I've been hearing about' section.
> 
> It mentions Windows boxes only. No, Mac support is being worked on ... nothing.
> 
> Grrrrrrrrrr


I read that and had the reaction that this might be the first time Windows was specifically pointed out as the OS for TiVoToGo. certainly no promises for TTG on Mac in there.


----------



## Unix_Beard

sad05 said:


> The latest emailed Tivo newsletter is yet another slap in the face for Mac users. Not ONE mention of Mac support in the whole 'what's this Tivo-to-Go thing I've been hearing about' section.
> 
> It mentions Windows boxes only. No, Mac support is being worked on ... nothing.
> 
> Grrrrrrrrrr


But it DOES note in the fine print that TivoToGo will be available "this summer" for Tivo DVD burner units.

C'mon Tivo. Can't you give US a ballpark too?


----------



## e30mpower

I am M A D. 

This TiVo **** is getting cancelled TOMORROW. If anyone wants four (yes, I've invested A LOT of money in TiVos over the years, and I'm still paying the monthly service fee for all) boxes then let me know. 

It was a *****SLAP to be LIED to about ToGo being "available soon," and now even worse that I can't even use the most basic HMO features, music and photos, in Tiger. 

I used to praise TiVo for being the most innovative company in a field it created, I was peeved when ToGo came out over a quarter of a year ago with no version for Mac, but am now damn IRATE that there is no Tiger compatibility with Desktop. How long have there been Developer copies of Tiger available? Probably on the borders of at least a year--long enough, especially with no major changes to the kernel, for TiVo to work the Desktop into it. This is nothing but laziness and half-ass customer support, and I have no sympathy for either. Furthermore, I certainly would not want to encourage this kind of lazy attitude by continuing to finance it with my monthly fees.

TiVo, screw yourselves. You are a fledgling company--that as you are now, barely holding your corporate head above water, and will be a distant memory in a few years, and you have brought it on yourself. I for one take comfort in that prediction.


----------



## cwoody222

Fofer said:


> I finally gave it a shot. For starters, the TiVo Desktop 1.9.1 installer fails when trying to install on Tiger. (The preference pane shows up though. And as previous posters have said, it doesn't actually work.)
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> Fingers crossed it gets fixed ASAP.


Does javaHMO work with Tiger?


----------



## Lon

Interesting note: Quicktime 7.0 showed up in Software Update this morning (free for Panther and Tiger).


----------



## timg

Also interesting to note: Tiger and Quicktime 7 are now released and we still don't have a schedule for TivoToGo for Mac.

Guess Tivo wasn't really waiting for 10.4 or quicktime 7 ... in fact, the only thing 10.4 did was break Tivo Desktop!


----------



## DannyBoy25

Here's an interesting note:

When I placed an order for a few of those 140 hour TiVo's, I asked my CSR, yes, just a CSR, about TTG for Macs and she told me that she had just gotten out of a meeting and learned that TTG for Macs are NOT a priority! Higher on the list is a HDTivo and a TiVo with a dual Tivo. Also, she mentioned that TiVo is more interested in working with other companies, rather than Mac. She said that she COULD NOT FORSEE TTG FOR MAC WITHING THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS! Why am I not surprised?

After this, and the previous comments from people at TiVo, I have ZERO faith that TiVo is working on anything for Mac users, even though they try and pacify us once in a while on this board. If they want us to believe that they are working on something, then give us a braod, vague timeline, at best.

Sad. 

-Danny!


----------



## ZeoTiVo

e30mpower said:


> even worse that I can't even use the most basic HMO features, music and photos, in Tiger.


so when are you leaving DirectTV for not enabling HMO on the DirectTiVos ?


----------



## sayonaraML

Now we know why TivoPony hasn't responded to the numerous requests for clarification on the CFOs comments. No misquotes or commets taken out of context, just a company that doesn't think they need to treat their customers with any respect.
One more reason to not call the CSRs...


----------



## SavMan

ZeoTiVo said:


> so when are you leaving DirectTV for not enabling HMO on the DirectTiVos ?


Oh, don't be facile. You know that there is a difference between never having the service in the first place, as with the DTiVos, and having that service discontinued because you upgraded to a new version of system software that has been seeded to developers for over a year. This is laziness on TiVo's part, plain and simple.

The proof just keeps pouring in: TiVo no longer cares about their customers, just their bottom line. It seems that the executives in Alviso think they can stop a sinking ship by selling off portions of the hull...


----------



## gonzotek

I don't know about 'laziness'. 'Prioritizing' maybe. I won't argue against the 'improving the bottom line' argument, as it's a blatant fact that their current short-term goal is profitability. There's also this:


> Apple has promised developers that there will be 'no API disruption for the foreseeable future.' Starting with Tiger, Apple will add new APIs to Mac OS X, but will not change any existing APIs in an incompatible way. This has not been the case during the first four years of Mac OS X's development, and Mac developers have often had to scramble to keep their applications running after each new major release," Siracusa writes.


http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars

Perhaps Tivo, being aware of the changing APIs, opted to hold their development until the update was available. Perhaps it has nothing to do with that, I am only speculating. But today is the first day that Tiger is generally available and the promise to developers that the APIs won't change is significant to companies like TiVo, whose development resources are obviously stretched pretty thin. If they(any company) are developing or considering developing Mac software, they now have a promise from Apple that a program they write today, on today's 10.4 kernel will still run on any updated versions, for the foreseeable future at least. That's a very important thing to consider, if you're a CFO looking to maximize your ROI. It might even be enough to change someone's decision. Or not. I'm still highly interested in the Mac platform, and TiVo won't really influence my decision to purchase a Mac in the near future one way or the other (my financial ability to do so is a much greater factor), but if they do fully support Mac OS as completely as they do Windows, I'd be all the more inclined to purchase more TiVo-branded products. I feel for all the TiVo users who are already solely invested in the Mac platform. As a stopgap workaround, I'd recommended JavaHMO as a temporary replacement for TiVoDesktop. You still won't have TTG, but at least you can browse your images and play your music(and more).


----------



## davezatz

gonzotek said:


> (my financial ability to do so is a much greater factor)


Much of the stuff I use requires Windows, but it's nice to have another (neat, fun) OS in the house to goof off with.

The Apple store usually has some pretty good deals on refurb eMacs... similar specs as a MacMini but with a builtin 17" CRT. I popped in a wireless card and hooked up a wireless/keyboard mouse so the thing has a pretty small footprint with only a power cable.

When the Tivo Desktop doesn't lose connectivity, it does a nice job of supporting iTunes playlists. Though I mainly use the Mac for the iLife apps, and Fiance uses it to surf the web. I haven't found a compelling reason to upgrade from 10.3 to 10.4 - the new features are overshadowed by the expense and additional system overhead in my book.


----------



## TheSlyBear

ZeoTiVo said:


> so when are you leaving DirectTV for not enabling HMO on the DirectTiVos ?


Sorry Zeo, not even close. I paid good money for HMO -- and wasn't one of those who cried foul when they started giving it away -- and I expect to be able to use what I paid for.


----------



## sad05

DannyBoy25 said:


> TTG for Macs are NOT a priority! Higher on the list is a HDTivo and a TiVo with a dual Tivo. Also, she mentioned that TiVo is more interested in working with other companies, rather than Mac. She said that she COULD NOT FORSEE TTG FOR MAC WITHING THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS! -Danny!


Does anyone know how the other DVR company, ReplayTV, is with Macs? Do they have anything like TTG? Am I stuck porting everything through a digital camcorder until I wise up and cancel Tivo?


----------



## davezatz

sad05 said:


> Does anyone know how the other DVR company, ReplayTV, is with Macs? Do they have anything like TTG? Am I stuck porting everything through a digital camcorder until I wise up and cancel Tivo?


ReplayTV has no DRM and a third-party app (FREE) called DVArchive lets you extract video at will. It also let's you remotely control your DVR and move video in both directions. I haven't used it in a year or so, but it's better than TTG anyway you slice it. Oh and it's a Java app which works on multiple platforms.

Tivo is still a better for traditional/typical DVR functions, but if transferring video is your priority there are better options which don't require hacking such as the ReplayTV or Windows MCE.


----------



## dropd

gonzotek said:


> I feel for all the TiVo users who are already solely invested in the Mac platform. As a stopgap workaround, I'd recommended JavaHMO as a temporary replacement for TiVoDesktop. You still won't have TTG, but at least you can browse your images and play your music(and more).


"stopgap" is right -- JavaHMO doesn't play with the iTunes and iPhoto libraries directly, which severely dilutes the TiVO HMO experience for us mac users...


----------



## tonyf3

DannyBoy25 said:


> Here's an interesting note:
> 
> When I placed an order for a few of those 140 hour TiVo's, I asked my CSR, yes, just a CSR, about TTG for Macs and she told me that she had just gotten out of a meeting and learned that TTG for Macs are NOT a priority! Higher on the list is a HDTivo and a TiVo with a dual Tivo. Also, she mentioned that TiVo is more interested in working with other companies, rather than Mac. She said that she COULD NOT FORSEE TTG FOR MAC WITHING THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS! Why am I not surprised?
> 
> After this, and the previous comments from people at TiVo, I have ZERO faith that TiVo is working on anything for Mac users, even though they try and pacify us once in a while on this board. If they want us to believe that they are working on something, then give us a braod, vague timeline, at best.
> 
> Sad.
> 
> -Danny!


Wow! Let me rewind to the first post in this thread. "UNBELIEVABLE!" 
How about this. Out of all the feature sets listed for TiVo users, lets put a % worth of the TiVo togo feature that our Windows brethren are enjoying right now. Then in- mass we demand a discount of that % on the monthly fee until Mac TTG is rolled out. 
A rebate back to Jan. might be in order as well. Yeah, maybe petty but it will make me feel better, and I won't be paying for touted features I don't receive.

PS. They can stuff their almost useless Newsletter that completely ignores Mac users issues.


----------



## tonyf3

Oh, and look at the time. We just began month FIVE! that they're working hard on this BS.


----------



## Bigg

Just use a PC, decrypt and then transfer over the network. Works great for me, you can even transcode to DiVX or MPEG4 if you have limited space. VPC apparently works, but real slow.


----------



## SavMan

Bigg said:


> Just use a PC, decrypt and then transfer over the network. Works great for me, you can even transcode to DiVX or MPEG4 if you have limited space. VPC apparently works, but real slow.


Yes, we shall all buy another computer, just so we can use the feature we've been paying for the last five months.


----------



## audioscience

SavMan said:


> Yes, we shall all buy another computer, just so we can use the feature we've been paying for the last five months.


You're paying more for TivoToGo? And this whole time I haven't paid a dime more than when I signed up last year. I must be getting a hell of a deal. They must charge Mac users extra so they don't get the support they demand.


----------



## SavMan

audioscience said:


> You're paying more for TivoToGo? And this whole time I haven't paid a dime more than when I signed up last year. I must be getting a hell of a deal. They must charge Mac users extra so they don't get the support they demand.


Oh look, one of the naysayers has returned! I don't suppose you'll be the first to admit you were wrong, though.

I'll only explain this to you once more. TANSTAAFL. We don't pay for the "cost" of the guide info, that costs TiVo nearly nothing. We pay for the feature set and because TiVo will break your box if you don't. I pay 12.95 + 6.95/month and don't get T2G, you pay the same (one way or another) and get T2G. I'm paying for the exact same service, but I don't get the same service... not because TiVo was fair and told us that ahead of time, but because TiVo has been and is lying to us and have told us to wait for a program they have no intention of bringing out anyways. I pay for T2G but I don't receive it, there's no way around it.

Now go back under your bridge, troll. No one here cares what you have to say.


----------



## UTA_MAVERICK

While we don't have support direct from TiVo for a working TiVo Desktop program, there is an alternative JavaHMO (with a ton of other options and plug-in options).

It's fixed my problems with visiability of the Series 2 boxes and streaming audio off the net, weather forecasts, movie times, etc.  

I've transfered some shows but have not been able to view them on the Macintosh, only on the PC. Here is what I have tried so far:

QuickTime Pro 6.5.2
Video Lan Client 0.8.2
Windows Media Player 9.0.0
Real Player 10.0.0
Real One Player 9.0.0

No success so far. Although VLC tried to view the file I get garbage on the screen when I open what was tranfered with JavaHMO since there is no Tivo2Go on Macintosh yet.

What player should I use?  

Does the record level make a difference? Is my problem a compression issue that these players just can't handle? I tried a PC laptop and had no problems with viewing with the Windows Media Player in XP.


----------



## Lon

UTA_MAVERICK said:


> What player should I use?
> 
> Does the record level make a difference? Is my problem a compression issue that these players just can't handle? I tried a PC laptop and had no problems with viewing with the Windows Media Player in XP.


It is not a player issue (or recording levels for that matter). Nor a compression issue. It is an encryption/decryption issue with the only workable solution on a Windows (2000 or XP) platform. I can truly say I know how frustrated you feel.

We await either a TiVo provided solution for Mac OS or a third party (DVD-Jon, hear our plea!) to provide a codec to unlock the TiVo file data.


----------



## Turtleboy

SavMan said:


> Oh look, one of the naysayers has returned! I don't suppose you'll be the first to admit you were wrong, though.
> 
> I'll only explain this to you once more. TANSTAAFL. We don't pay for the "cost" of the guide info, that costs TiVo nearly nothing. We pay for the feature set and because TiVo will break your box if you don't. I pay 12.95 + 6.95/month and don't get T2G, you pay the same (one way or another) and get T2G. I'm paying for the exact same service, but I don't get the same service... not because TiVo was fair and told us that ahead of time, but because TiVo has been and is lying to us and have told us to wait for a program they have no intention of bringing out anyways. I pay for T2G but I don't receive it, there's no way around it.
> 
> Now go back under your bridge, troll. No one here cares what you have to say.


What about Series 1 owners still paying a monthly fee?


----------



## Turtleboy

BTW, I posting this message on my Powerbook G4 with Tiger, but this notion that "mac users are paying the same amount as XP users and therefore aren't getting the same product" is the most asinine, ridiculous, think I've ever heard.

Are Windows ME users getting less? Are Linux users? Are people without computers? Are (as i said in my post right beforehand) Series I users?

Your Tivo -- my tivo, fellow mac users, does exactly what it did beforehand, and making stupid arguments doesn't move you any closer to getting T2g for the Mac.


----------



## davezatz

Turtleboy said:


> is the most asinine, ridiculous, think I've ever heard.
> 
> making stupid arguments doesn't move you any closer to getting T2g for the Mac.


What makes your perspective the right one? You may not buy the reasoning/logic in those arguments, but the fact is there are many disgruntled people who feel as if Tivo just made them second class citizens. And they are entitled to their perspective regardless of how you slam them.

Until January both Mac and PC users were provided basically the same functionality, that parity is gone. Personally, other than being bummed I naively upgraded iLife, I could care less - TTG is too slow and hobbled by protections which are only going to get worse. Converting files will be a thing of the past and networks such as HBO will start flagging shows to prevent copying anyhow. Mac HMO is already being surpassed by hobbyists developing for HME - perhaps that is why Tivo feels they can get by with less Mac staff/development.



> my tivo, fellow mac users, does exactly what it did beforehand


Well since you're running Tiger, your Tivo does NOT do the same things it did. HMO is gone... at least for the moment.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

I acree davezatz but if Tivo were to start charging a different monthly subscription based on use of Mac as main OS , then theyhave to start some sliding scale for all kinds of different users, does not seem like a very workable idea.

and the only _loss_ is HMO on a new OS - not the OS used at the time. If the next windows OS had desktop breaking then people would say do not go to the new OS yet.

the frustration though TurtleBoy is that TiVo does not seem to be putting in resources to keep the Mac side going as strong as the window side. Putting out Tiger support for current mac TiVo desktop supoort would be a very good sign of faith from TiVo


----------



## Turtleboy

Maybe b/c I'm on lifetime, and don't understand the monthly people.

I paid for my tivo a couple years ago, and haven't thought about it since. 

So this notion that "I'm paying and not getting" just doesn't hit me.


----------



## SavMan

Turtleboy said:


> Maybe b/c I'm on lifetime, and don't understand the monthly people.
> 
> I paid for my tivo a couple years ago, and haven't thought about it since.
> 
> So this notion that "I'm paying and not getting" just doesn't hit me.


Apparently not. Series 1 users were not lied to about the services they were not going to get. Either way, YES, Series 1 users are paying for something they don't get. I don't know what's so hard about this...

1. We pay the same as everyone else.
2. Some users are able to use a feature we can't, one that was marketed for years.
3. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

:.

We are paying for this feature we can't use.

... why are we the stupid people, but you are the all-knowing one who understands REALLY how paying for features not available to us is not a bum deal?


----------



## CrispyCritter

SavMan said:


> Apparently not. Series 1 users were not lied to about the services they were not going to get. Either way, YES, Series 1 users are paying for something they don't get. I don't know what's so hard about this...
> 
> 1. We pay the same as everyone else.
> 2. Some users are able to use a feature we can't, one that was marketed for years.
> 3. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.
> 
> :.
> 
> We are paying for this feature we can't use.


If you're going to make arguments that don't make any sense, you're going to get called on it. This is one of them. It doesn't mean that people don't support the idea that TiVo should make TTG available on the Mac; just some reasons are better than others. The idea you've been paying for it for the past 5 months is ridiculous.


----------



## tchwojko

For the moment, I'll say for the sake of argument:
1. Tivo did not _lie_ about the feature set on the Mac. (I'm trying to avoid using words that invoke emotions that may be irrelevant to the argument.)
2. The monthly fee for Tivo is acceptable with or without the Home Media Options. (I'm indifferent, since I paid for the lifetime service, but for the purposes of my argument, it just adds noise.)

I have a Tivo. I have a Mac. I don't have a Wintel box. I have a DVD system.
I want to easily record and play TV shows.
I want to archive certain shows (Good Eats!), and home movies, ideally with Apple's software.
I want to be able to play TV shows that I've recorded on any of my TVs, or any of my computers.
I want to be able to get some information and/or media from my computer and show them on my TV.
I do NOT want to twiddle codecs, media players, or reboot my computer 30 times with different options to find one that works.
I do NOT want to have to administer a home network any more than I already do.
I do NOT want to sacrifice usability for features I won't use.

I can't go back and change my mind about the money I've spent in the past, but I can choose where my future dollars go. They're going to go to companies that provide solutions that meet my needs.

Tivo is not meeting my needs, and does not show any signs of doing so, therefore Tivo will not get my future dollars. If Tivo changes its solutions, then I may reconsider.

Anyone who wants to spend their time ranting at Tivo, or defending Tivo, feel free. You may be completely correct in your reasoning.


----------



## hargreae

Turtleboy said:


> Your Tivo -- my tivo, fellow mac users, does exactly what it did beforehand.


Actually, mine doesn't anymore. Since the update to system version 7, the menus are slower to open, the button responsiveness is worsened, and there's audio dropouts and video freezing/pixellation when changing channels. Also, the guide has less and less information, thus shows that are repeats and shouldn't get recorded are being recorded as if they are new.

To make matters worse, I paid extra $$ for the Home Media Option and now TiVo doesn't even support Music and Photos on the new Mac OS X 10.4.

At the time I bought HMO, TiVo said they were working hard on enabling playback of AAC files, which said to me that it was going to happen. Years later, they basically say they stopped trying and aren't planning on working on it anymore.

So when they say they're working hard on TiVoToGo for Mac, this is how we all know it's a big lie. Why don't they want to be honest about how they aren't going to support Mac users? Because they want us to keep paying them $13 a month. Duh!

If only I could actually say, "Well, our TiVo still does exactly what it used to do." Unfortunately, it doesn't. It's much worse than it was 9 months ago.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

hargreae said:


> At the time I bought HMO, TiVo said they were working hard on enabling playback of AAC files, which said to me that it was going to happen. Years later, they basically say they stopped trying and aren't planning on working on it anymore.


why does no one get that "working hard on something" does not always mean you a have a coder(s) working hard at knocking out code.

AAC support is a great example of this. "working Hard" there most likely meant TiVo was tyring ahrd to get Apple to license the fairplay tech so TiVo could use it to play encrypted AAC files. TiVo stated they wanted a play any AAC file (DRMed or not) solution. sometimes working hard happens in the negotiation stage. TiVo can not tell us Apple's side of the story as then they could never negotiate in good faith after that. Apple has a profound history of never talking about anything until after negotiations as well.

none of us know what the working on it is about and none of us know where the roadblocks are. Thos Dennis Wilkinson seemed to have a good iadea why Desktop did not work on Tiger in the Tiger thread.

you may all go back to ranting about your speculations as if they are hard facts again. Have fun with that..

PS - it still sucks that there is no TTG or AAC for Mac. This post is not meant to imply otherwise.


----------



## dropd

ZeoTiVo said:


> -snip-
> 
> AAC support is a great example of this. "working Hard" there most likely meant TiVo was tyring ahrd to get Apple to license the fairplay tech so TiVo could use it to play encrypted AAC files. TiVo stated they wanted a play any AAC file (DRMed or not) solution. sometimes working hard happens in the negotiation stage. TiVo can not tell us Apple's side of the story as then they could never negotiate in good faith after that.
> 
> -snip-
> 
> you may all go back to ranting about your speculations as if they are hard facts again. Have fun with that..


this is (unintentionally) pretty funny...


----------



## bedelman

Actually, there is unofficial support for non-protected AAC files in TiVo Desktop 1.9.x

Installing LAME allows the non-protected AAC files to be streamed over to the DVR as MP3.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

dropd said:


> this is (unintentionally) pretty funny...


except that I was not ranting and and just pointing out the obvious about Apple never licensing fairplay to anyone and stopping anyone who tried to make their own way to play Fairplayed AAC files. 

and as Bob pointed out, TiVo did still slip in unofficial supoport for open AAC files since customers wanted it and it was a way for TiVo to add it without having to field umpteen calls on why fairplayed AAC files did not work from people who do not realize the distinction

my speculation stays as speculation "most likely" definitely shows it is my opinion and not a fact.


----------



## hammer32

We decided to drop our Series 2 TiVo sub today (TTG and HMO were on our minds). We'll sign it up again when TTG support arrives. I've been a TiVo supporter for a while and still reccomend it to friends, especially in comparison with what else is out there, but I only kept this unit for TTG when we on the road or deployed. For now we'll stick with our DirecTiVo's and hope we have a need for TiVo after MPEG4 comes to our town.


----------



## rog

SavMan said:


> 1. We pay the same as everyone else.
> 2. Some users are able to use a feature we can't, one that was marketed for years.
> 3. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.
> 
> :.
> 
> We are paying for this feature we can't use.


This is a rediculous argument! It is logically flawed.

As others have said, no one is paying extra for the TTG feature. It was added without an increase to the cost of service fees. It's an added value/benefit. Unfortunately it is not a benefit available to everyone (yet), but this does not mean you are paying more for it!

Furthermore, think about the other platforms that may be in use in people's homes (Linux, Mac OS 9, Windows 98/ME), and then think again about your argument...



SavMan said:


> Seriously, I think some people just come in here so they can be dicks.


Hmm... you've been just downright gracious and friendly to everyone here! You are always extra nice to people who may not share your views too, aren't you? 

-----

I'm typing this on my iBook. I agree that TiVo's handling of the Mac-support issue has been a fiasco, at best. I'm all for pushing for an update for Tiger too... but stop with the flimsy arguments and name calling. People can disagree with you without being labeled trolls, dicks, or my favorite cognomen -- "smug".


----------



## Bigg

SavMan said:


> Yes, we shall all buy another computer, just so we can use the feature we've been paying for the last five months.


 You don't have a PC? OK, not sure how you could survive without one, there is some stuff that just doesn't work with MAC. As much as I love my mac, I would never be without a PC or VPC.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Bigg said:


> You don't have a PC? OK, not sure how you could survive without one, there is some stuff that just doesn't work with MAC. As much as I love my mac, I would never be without a PC or VPC.


I'm thinking SavMan would get a physical rash if he touched anything tainted by Microsoft


----------



## Unix_Beard

Bigg said:


> You don't have a PC? OK, not sure how you could survive without one, there is some stuff that just doesn't work with MAC. As much as I love my mac, I would never be without a PC or VPC.


I support thousands of users via file/web services and administer an RDBMS. I've been working in the field for the last 15 years. All of our services are run either on MacOS X or Linux. (Even the Linux servers run on Macs.)

I have 5 machines at home. My house is wired in every room. I have no Windows machines nor did I ever find a need to own one.

I can't use TTG or play PC games. Only one of which I'm bothered by since I like my Gamecube. 

I could work on Windows but I prefer MacOS X. And by the way, there are lots of things you can't do on a PC as well. Install windows and then try rsyncing the machine through an ssh tunnel without downloading anything.


----------



## AnteL0pe

rog said:


> This is a rediculous argument! It is logically flawed.
> 
> As others have said, no one is paying extra for the TTG feature. It was added without an increase to the cost of service fees. It's an added value/benefit. Unfortunately it is not a benefit available to everyone (yet), but this does not mean you are paying more for it!


You have to be kidding, you dont see a problem with everyone paying the same amount, but only a portion of them getting better services?! Yes, us Mac users are paying for services we arent getting.



Bigg said:


> You don't have a PC? OK, not sure how you could survive without one, there is some stuff that just doesn't work with MAC. As much as I love my mac, I would never be without a PC or VPC.


I really cant think of a situation where I ever _need_ to use windows....


----------



## gonzotek

AnteL0pe said:


> You have to be kidding, you dont see a problem with everyone paying the same amount, but only a portion of them getting better services?! Yes, us Mac users are paying for services we arent getting.


But so are Windows 98 users, Windows ME users, Linux users, Mac OS 9 and below users, and so on. Mac users aren't being excluded because they're Mac users, they're being excluded because they're NOT windows 2k or xp users; this is the same situation as users of any system that isn't 2000 or xp, right now.


----------



## AnteL0pe

gonzotek said:


> But so are Windows 98 users, Windows ME users, Linux users, Mac OS 9 and below users, and so on. Mac users aren't being excluded because they're Mac users, they're being excluded because they're NOT windows 2k or xp users; this is the same situation as users of any system that isn't 2000 or xp, right now.


Ok, so they should be pissed too, it doesnt take away from the argument that SavMan is making just because there are others in the same boat.

And there is a slight difference here, we were promised support, we have been told that they are working on a solution. Neither of those appear to be true.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

AnteL0pe said:


> And there is a slight difference here, we were promised support, we have been told that they are working on a solution. Neither of those appear to be true.


again, when were you promised support ? that would imply TiVo stated a timeline when TTG for Mac would happen. TiVo has done no such thing as promise support. You all make such a big fuss over the precise legalese TiVo uses that says nothing and gives you no hope and then turn around and make it fit the argument that you were promised something. You can not have it both ways.

It sure looks to me like TiVo is having trouble getting TTG working on the Mac platform in a manner consistent with their business plans. They clearly are concerend with continued efforts to keep enforcing a rights managed solution on windows to keep content providers from suing them or getting the FCC to rule against them. Giving the replayTV fall and that TiVo is batting .500 at the FCC these seem like real fears they must factor in. The Mac platform is no different. Why can you not just accept that and deal with the conclusion that even TiVo has no idea if they can deliver TTG for Mac but are working on it anyway because they would much prefer to release a Mac version?


----------



## cwoody222

ZeoTiVo said:


> Why can you not just accept that and deal with the conclusion that even TiVo has no idea if they can deliver TTG for Mac ...


'Cause TiVo's never said that. I can only base thoughts on what the company tells me. 

What TiVo _has_ said is that they're "working on it".

Unless TiVo expects their customers to assume they'll fail at something they're working on, TiVo is implying support is forthcoming.


----------



## Unix_Beard

gonzotek said:


> But so are Windows 98 users, Windows ME users, Linux users, Mac OS 9 and below users, and so on. Mac users aren't being excluded because they're Mac users, they're being excluded because they're NOT windows 2k or xp users; this is the same situation as users of any system that isn't 2000 or xp, right now.


The difference is that Tivo Desktop was always available for MacOS X users. It never was available for MacOS 9 users. And the 98/ME argument doesn't really hold water since they are both archaic OS's. OS X is a modern OS as is XP/2000. Linux, as I've repeated over and over, is NOT a viable desktop OS. If it were, we'd see Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Word, Excel, Filemaker, etc for Linux. MacOS X is a viable commercial OS proven on sales to millions of people.

The fact that Tivo developed for OS X as an equal to windows sucked a lot of people like myself into the Tivo fold. If I were to have waited, I would have most definitely chosen ReplayTV. That being said, I've already cancelled service on one of my Tivos and am only keeping the lifetime unit around because its paid for. When that thing dies, I have a new outlook on Tivo the company to use in weighing my alternatives.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

cwoody222 said:


> 'Cause TiVo's never said that. I can only base thoughts on what the company tells me.
> 
> What TiVo _has_ said is that they're "working on it".
> 
> Unless TiVo expects their customers to assume they'll fail at something they're working on, TiVo is implying support is forthcoming.


fair enough - I was thinking a speculative conclusion from the lack of a timeline being available. But for someone saying they want TTG for mac now it would seem a better use of time to find and use an alternative, oh and call TiVo and let them know it hit their bottom line.

I do think the greater issue here is that TiVo has really screwed up somewhere along the line in regards to TTG on Mac. They are moving into new areas of product development and are not hitting the home runs like they did with early TiVos. That is the implicit part of my conclusion that TiVo does not know how to deliver TTG for Mac. It just goes to that old business adage of you can not be good at all things.


----------



## AnteL0pe

ZeoTiVo said:


> . Why can you not just accept that and deal with the conclusion that even TiVo has no idea if they can deliver TTG for Mac but are working on it anyway because they would much prefer to release a Mac version?


I have accepted that, because they have yet to be able to produce anything. The problem I have with that is that its 100% BS that it cant be done. Of course they could do it, they are making a decision *not* to do it. Again, even that would be OK if they would just come out and say that is what they are doing. They would rather keep taking my money and telling me they are working on it...... Nice f'ing PR, way to run a company TiVo....


----------



## Unix_Beard

ZeoTiVo said:


> It sure looks to me like TiVo is having trouble getting TTG working on the Mac platform in a manner consistent with their business plans. They clearly are concerend with continued efforts to keep enforcing a rights managed solution on windows to keep content providers from suing them or getting the FCC to rule against them. Giving the replayTV fall and that TiVo is batting .500 at the FCC these seem like real fears they must factor in. The Mac platform is no different. Why can you not just accept that and deal with the conclusion that even TiVo has no idea if they can deliver TTG for Mac but are working on it anyway because they would much prefer to release a Mac version?


You act like this a Herculean task. My god man. Oracle 10g runs on OS X. Maya runs on OS X. Every major app runs on OS X. (Of course there are exceptions like Autocad or ArcGIS). This is not rocket science.

You don't see me in the "Class Action" threads or any of that nonsense. My main concern is Tivo holding their end of the bargain. Its unfair to suck me in with the 1.x iteration of Tivo Desktop and then pull the rug out and say "Sucka!"


----------



## ZeoTiVo

AnteL0pe said:


> They would rather keep taking my money


if DVR files on the Mac were important to me I would not still be giving TiVo money.

And yes I think it is a business decision to need something with Tighter DRM than they can come up with on the Mac. But like I said with Replay TV being hurt badly by lawsuits and the FCC being an adversarial environment that is a real business decision TiVo can not take lightly.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Unix_Beard said:


> You act like this a Herculean task. My god man. Oracle 10g runs on OS X. Maya runs on OS X. Every major app runs on OS X. (Of course there are exceptions like Autocad or ArcGIS). This is not rocket science.
> 
> You don't see me in the "Class Action" threads or any of that nonsense. My main concern is Tivo holding their end of the bargain. Its unfair to suck me in with the 1.x iteration of Tivo Desktop and then pull the rug out and say "Sucka!"


I do not think it is a just a technical issue of playing .tivo files. I agree with you that the Mac could quite easily get the files, read the MAK, decrypt the files and play the resulting MPEG stream. It would work better than the piss poor multimedia that comes with Windows XP.

That leads me to think it is a business decision of not feeling that TiVo can secure everything like they want to. I do not buy into a backroom deal with Microsoft so I conclude that it must be hard to protect the mpeg stream adn keep other apps from getting at it. I base this in part on their efforts to shut down the same kind of thing on Windows with desktop 2.1 that just came out.

The Tiger thing was probably TiVo waiting for the gold release to fix things , now we see if Tivo can get the current Mac TiVo desktop running there soon. Conclusions can be drawn from that as well but I would not expect that TiVo had desktop working with next win OS the day it came out in stores. It would be nice but not expected, I would expect it to reelase a desktop soon after though.

I would also make sure things that were important to me worked with a new OS before I upgraded to it.


----------



## dropd

ZeoTiVo said:


> I would also make sure things that were important to me worked with a new OS before I upgraded to it.


That sounds exactly like what we are doing WRT TivoDesktop and Tiger. I'm not complaining that I upgraded and didn't know TD would break. I'm complaining that TiVo is (for now anyway) making me make that choice. I'm just making my voice heard.

Technically, I have already upgraded to Tiger, with full knowledge that TD was going to stop working (since I checked here and the TD homepage first). By posting about it, we (at least in a small way) raise our visibility. TiVo isn't going to support us if they think we don't care.

I've let TiVo know that if I have to choose between the tacos and the mail... I choose the mail.

But the tacos are delicious, probably the best tacos I've ever had, and I'd like to get more of them, preferably sooner than later.


----------



## Unix_Beard

ZeoTiVo said:


> I would also make sure things that were important to me worked with a new OS before I upgraded to it.


I haven't complained about Tiger. I've stayed out of the more inflammatory threads. My iTunes box is in the basement. I just won't upgrade that one to Tiger. What I'm looking for is whether I will -ever- be able to upgrade that machine. If not, then I'll have to come up with other solutions. I could easily just buy an Airport Express and stream my music through it but I was sold a bill of goods last year when I bought my first Tivo.


----------



## AnteL0pe

ZeoTiVo said:


> if DVR files on the Mac were important to me I would not still be giving TiVo money.
> 
> And yes I think it is a business decision to need something with Tighter DRM than they can come up with on the Mac. But like I said with Replay TV being hurt badly by lawsuits and the FCC being an adversarial environment that is a real business decision TiVo can not take lightly.


Fine then they need to come out and tell us this. Let us know that they arent working on a solution and that they have no plans to.

By stringing us along and not realy telling us anything they give us enough hope to keep paying while not producing anything. Its a horrible way to treat customers, and it isnt a way to run a business.


----------



## audioscience

Unix_Beard said:


> And by the way, there are lots of things you can't do on a PC as well. Install windows and then try rsyncing the machine through an ssh tunnel without downloading anything.


This is the one thing that I do all of the time and I hate about having a PC and makes me wish I had a Mac.

/Has no idea WTF the above means
/goes back to surfing pr0n on the Wintel machine


----------



## Unix_Beard

audioscience said:


> This is the one thing that I do all of the time and I hate about having a PC and makes me wish I had a Mac.
> 
> /Has no idea WTF the above means
> /goes back to surfing pr0n on the Wintel machine


Thanks for making my point. Everyone has their toolbox.


----------



## rog

Unix_Beard said:


> And by the way, there are lots of things you can't do on a PC as well. Install windows and then try rsyncing the machine through an ssh tunnel without downloading anything.





audioscience said:


> This is the one thing that I do all of the time and I hate about having a PC and makes me wish I had a Mac.
> 
> /Has no idea WTF the above means
> /goes back to surfing pr0n on the Wintel machine


HA!!! LOL. You guys are both cracking me up. 

Who in their right mind would *ever* want to rsync a Windows machine!?


----------



## hargreae

ZeoTiVo said:


> why does no one get that "working hard on something" does not always mean you a have a coder(s) working hard at knocking out code.
> 
> AAC support is a great example of this. "working Hard" there most likely meant TiVo was tyring ahrd to get Apple to license the fairplay tech so TiVo could use it to play encrypted AAC files. TiVo stated they wanted a play any AAC file (DRMed or not) solution. sometimes working hard happens in the negotiation stage. TiVo can not tell us Apple's side of the story as then they could never negotiate in good faith after that. Apple has a profound history of never talking about anything until after negotiations as well.


I don't recall that TiVo ever said they were working hard on playback of protected AAC files. And I completely understand that they need Apple's help to do that. But there (obviously) is no reason why they can't support unprotected AAC files. TiVo has said that they choose not to do this because the amount of users is so small. Yet days after a new version of iPhoto was released they updated TiVo Desktop to support it. Hmmm, how many people had paid the $50 for that versus the millions who have the free iTunes and have ripped their CDs in the default format?

Also, I understand that "working hard" is not a promise. The problem is that TiVo never tells you when it stops "working hard." Years after that notice, I find out on an unofficial forum that they gave up a long time ago and just never told us officially. Now the page just says AAC files are not supported. Like Tiger.


----------



## gonzotek

*"Now that Tiger is out of the bag, some Mac software makers say the new cat doesn't play well with others."*
http://news.com.com/Apples+Tiger+makes+some+companies+growl/2100-1016_3-5694048.html?tag=nefd.top
Some of the affected companies include Microsoft and Cisco. I don't find it surprising that TiVo Desktop for Mac was broken by Tiger, considering software from major players like Microsoft also got broken by the upgrade. And Apple obviously knew they were going to break a number of things, since they made the 'no api changes from now on' promise with this release. It reassures developers that if they fix their software for Tiger, they can count on it not being broken by the next update.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

hargreae said:


> I don't recall that TiVo ever said they were working hard on playback of protected AAC files. And I completely understand that they need Apple's help to do that. But there (obviously) is no reason why they can't support unprotected AAC files. TiVo has said that they choose not to do this because the amount of users is so small. Yet days after a new version of iPhoto was released they updated TiVo Desktop to support it. Hmmm, how many people had paid the $50 for that versus the millions who have the free iTunes and have ripped their CDs in the default format?
> 
> Also, I understand that "working hard" is not a promise. The problem is that TiVo never tells you when it stops "working hard." Years after that notice, I find out on an unofficial forum that they gave up a long time ago and just never told us officially. Now the page just says AAC files are not supported. Like Tiger.


in this forum TiVo spoke of working hard on support of all AAC files including protected ones. Then the real network thing happened and people asked TiVo for uppo=rotected AAC support - TiVo in this forum said it did not want to support just some AAC files and confuse customers (and result in more support calls to TiVo)

also look around this forum - if you install lame there is unofficial support for open AAC files in the desktop. TiVo gave you a back door. TiVo also knew they were working on HME that would allow 3 rd parties to do the protetcted AAC to MP3 work so the songs can stream to the TiVo. look for iSeeiTunes.

I covered why they do not say when they stop working in my post you responded to. If Tivo truly thought they could indeed deliver TTG for Mac in first part of 2006 they would have released a timeline. They have not, are they suppossed to say in december "oh BTW we stopped working on something that no one was expecting anyway"


----------



## mscottsimon

AnteL0pe said:


> I really cant think of a situation where I ever _need_ to use windows....


Hmm.... how about to use TTG?

Ironic that you wrote that in a Mac/TTG thread. rofl

.scott


----------



## Unix_Beard

mscottsimon said:


> Hmm.... how about to use TTG?
> 
> Ironic that you wrote that in a Mac/TTG thread. rofl
> 
> .scott


Someone didn't read the thread.


----------



## AnteL0pe

mscottsimon said:


> Hmm.... how about to use TTG?
> 
> Ironic that you wrote that in a Mac/TTG thread. rofl
> 
> .scott


Wahahahaha, well you got me there.....


----------



## sad05

The PSP has TTG support?! 
Ah! How many injustices do we have to suffer?


----------



## davezatz

sad05 said:


> The PSP has TTG support?!
> Ah! How many injustices do we have to suffer?


It has support the same way Mac has support. Convert the .tivo files on your PC to something useful then transfer it to a PSP or a Mac or whatever. And the support is unofficial, not provided by Tivo.


----------



## hargreae

ZeoTiVo said:


> in this forum TiVo spoke of working hard on support of all AAC files including protected ones. Then the real network thing happened and people asked TiVo for uppo=rotected AAC support - TiVo in this forum said it did not want to support just some AAC files and confuse customers (and result in more support calls to TiVo)


I didn't find this forum until this January. I've had TiVo since December 2003. So I'd been waiting for TiVo to finish its "hard work" of supporting unprotected AAC files and letting us know either via the newsletter or its web site (official sources of info). But apparently they just quietly let the news drop here that they stopped working on it. As soon as they decided to stop working on it, they should have let us know. The reason they didn't? They don't want Mac users to abandon TiVo.



ZeoTiVo said:


> also look around this forum - if you install lame there is unofficial support for open AAC files in the desktop. TiVo gave you a back door.


Which no longer works with 10.4



ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo also knew they were working on HME that would allow 3 rd parties to do the protetcted AAC to MP3 work so the songs can stream to the TiVo. look for iSeeiTunes.


iSeeiTunes does not convert protected AAC files to MP3, and it doesn't stream songs to the TiVo, so I don't think you know what you're talking about.



ZeoTiVo said:


> I covered why they do not say when they stop working in my post you responded to. If Tivo truly thought they could indeed deliver TTG for Mac in first part of 2006 they would have released a timeline. They have not, are they suppossed to say in december "oh BTW we stopped working on something that no one was expecting anyway"


If TiVo says they're "working hard," it should be true. If they stop, they need to be honest and say so. They shouldn't wait until 2006 and post some message in this forum that says 'oh, we worked hard on it for a while, but gave up about 9 months ago.'

The CEO admitted that at the rate they're working on it, it wouldn't be available for a couple of years. Well, that's going to cause some Mac folks to give up on TiVo. Since they don't want to lose customers, they lie and say his remarks weren't represented accurately. That's B.S.


----------



## bedelman

hargreae -- a few corrections if you don't mind...

First of all, as far as I know TiVo never said that they were working on AAC support. There was a brief blurb a long time ago in an online Mac site (I think it was MacNN), but it never appeared elsewhere although a few sites did reference the MacNN article.

Second, it was not the CEO of TiVo. It was the CFO -- which is a world of difference in regard to area of responsibility.


----------



## chessplayer

bedelman said:


> First of all, as far as I know TiVo never said that they were working on AAC support.


 I distinctly recall them saying they were working on AAC support. Of course, it is not TiVo's fault that Apple did not give them the ability to play protected AAC directly. I still think unprotected AAC should have gotten official support - it's even the default for iTunes importing.



> Second, it was not the CEO of TiVo. It was the CFO -- which is a world of difference in regard to area of responsibility.


 Yes, it was the CFO, who is still in a position to know. And note that the reason the CFO stated was that it was too EXPENSIVE to do the Mac development needed, so I think it's reasonable to take him at his word in that. I don't appreciate TiVo's backpedaling attempts regarding the CFO's statements.


----------



## Kripto

I'm awestruck at the lack of support from Tivo on this issue. In fact I just upgraded to Tiger to find that they haven't ported the app over yet! I mean c'mon! Smaller development houses with fewer resources are able to keep up with apple on their updates. Tiger Development releases have been out for over 6 months now! Tivo! Get off your butts!!!


----------



## bedelman

chessplayer said:


> I distinctly recall them saying they were working on AAC support. Of course, it is not TiVo's fault that Apple did not give them the ability to play protected AAC directly. I still think unprotected AAC should have gotten official support - it's even the default for iTunes importing.


I pushed for unprotected AAC support in a thread well over a year ago. At that time, TiVoBill indicated that they thought it would be too confusing as to why some AAC files would be able to be played and yet others would not. I disagreed, but I can see his side of it as well.


----------



## Fofer

bedelman said:



> I pushed for unprotected AAC support in a thread well over a year ago. At that time, TiVoBill indicated that they thought it would be too confusing as to why some AAC files would be able to be played and yet others would not. I disagreed, but I can see his side of it as well.


I can't.

How hard is it? "Songs purchased from the iTunes Music Store won't play."

Don't confuse matters by mentioning AAC at all.

Done.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

bedelman said:


> I pushed for unprotected AAC support in a thread well over a year ago. At that time, TiVoBill indicated that they thought it would be too confusing as to why some AAC files would be able to be played and yet others would not. I disagreed, but I can see his side of it as well.


yes it was those conversations and some others on here before that where one of the TiVo employees (I forget which one) said TiVo was working on protected AAC support. It seems that working on it seems to mean "in talks with the company holding license" . I distinctly remembered the many requests for unoprotected AAC file support and TiVoBIll saying it would be confusing to support a subset of a format and would generate too many support calls. He predicted someone would write a plugin for HMO that would suport them anyway.


----------



## davezatz

bedelman said:


> I disagreed, but I can see his side of it as well.


I can't... as I said then I think it discounts the intelligence of Tivo customers. I think you can easily explain the distinction in documentation or with a footnote, as other companies are doing since Apple is not licensing it's DRM. If a tiny company like Roku (SoundBridge) can collaborate with Apple and get an iTunes logo on the box and offer official AAC support (non DRM), it can't be that difficut or expensve.

I also felt, and still do, it was a shortsited from a business perspective for Tivo and TIvoBIll to take the stance since we can't provide it all, we'll provide none. There's many more iTunes users than Tivo owners at this point... why not tap into them? Then again this conversion happened prior to it becoming clear Mac was taking a back seat to Windows development within Tivo. The Mac market may be smaller, but they are the type of audience Tivo wants to attract and retain: vocal supporters, affluent and willing to pay a premium over competitors.


----------



## Fofer

You know, the fact that HMO still doesn't "officially" support playback of AAC files, the default format of iTunes, is quite telling. 

I'm willing to bet that TiVoToGo for Mac won't *ever* see the light of day. And if/when it does, it will be long after TiVo has lost relevance.


If we don't see a Tiger-compatible version of TiVo Desktop anytime soon, and instead need to rely on Dennis Wilkinson's patch to make it work? Well then that's just downright pathetic.


----------



## Fofer

davezatz said:


> I can't... as I said then I think it discounts the intelligence of Tivo customers. I think you can easily explain the distinction in documentation or with a footnote, as other companies are doing since Apple is not licensing it's DRM. If a tiny company like Roku (SoundBridge) can collaborate with Apple and get an iTunes logo on the box and offer official AAC support (non DRM), it can't be that difficut or expensve.


An even smaller company:
http://www.slimdevices.com/
supports AAC (non DRM) too.

I believe this is the software that powers Roku... it's even Open Source!


----------



## hargreae

bedelman said:


> First of all, as far as I know TiVo never said that they were working on AAC support. There was a brief blurb a long time ago in an online Mac site (I think it was MacNN), but it never appeared elsewhere although a few sites did reference the MacNN article.


They never said it? It never appeared elsewhere? Hmmm, how about TiVo's customer support web site?

"We are working on supporting the AAC music format."
http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv1161.htm


----------



## thehand

you guys are killing TIVO. keep it up


----------



## thehand

TIVO is for pussies


----------



## TheSlyBear

thehand said:


> you guys are killing TIVO. keep it up


Sad as it may be, it's TiVo that is killing TiVo.


----------



## Jeffsters

timg said:


> If you are "working on support ... on the Mac platform", why is there no schedule for release? Not even a tentative schedule. Are we going to see this release in 2005? 2006? 2007?
> 
> Until Tivo commits to a date (even if it's only tentative), TivoToGo for Mac is nothing but Vaporware. Tivo would not be the first company to say they are working a version of their product for the Mac and never deliver that product.
> 
> Bottom line for me is, if TivoToGo for Mac was a priority for Tivo, there would be a release schedule.


Agreed. You don't devote engineering resources to something without a spec and a damn schedule. Now you do let an engineer or two look into the possibility and draft a document outlining challenges and such without a schedule. I guess you can call that "working on it" but I think it's more "we're exploring...". IMHO!


----------



## Jeffsters

TiVoBill said:


> It is certainly possible that we will support unencrypted AAC files at some point, but I don't know of any plans to do that at this time since the format is not all that popular outside of iTunes world. A third party person/company could also develop a plug-in for TiVo Desktop to play unencrypted AAC files (as they have done with WMA) but there doesn't seem to be much interest in that area.


OMG! Ok..help me here. Can you imagine Tivo saying this if Microsoft had the #1 music store and jukebox software? You're looking for a 3rd party to add support for the #1 jukebox software program? Help me out here...I am really trying to understand. God I pray more each day Apple roles their own cross-platform PVR and does to you what they have done to REAL, hell I'd be happy if Microsoft did! At they're honest in their intentions! You guys are becoming the Quark of the PVR space. Go look what's happening to them and take a lesson before it's too late!


----------



## Jeffsters

timg said:


> Well, I am an engineer so maybe I will look into the openings. As an engineer though, I've never seen a project without a schedule ...


Ditto! I work at a top 5 (makes it less specific..hehehe) software company and I tooo have NEVER heard of a project without a schedule. Think for a minute! How is a project a "project" without milestones and dates? I give up! Hey...we have openings BTW! ;-)


----------



## Jeffsters

TiVoBill said:


> I have a iBook that I would love to be able to use TiVoToGo on, but I have to be patient for now.


Aww....yes! When all else fails use the old, "I have a Mac at home..." statement. That works! ;-)


----------



## schalliol

With 35 pages, I thought I'd just add my name to the list of Mac users that really want TiVoToGo. I've even gotten 7 referrals in the formal system with several before it started. I'm getting some "bad PR" with the Mac users of the bunch over this.


----------



## tonyf3

hargreae said:


> They never said it? It never appeared elsewhere? Hmmm, how about TiVo's customer support web site?
> 
> "We are working on supporting the AAC music format."
> http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv1161.htm


They're all stalling. Read the link.


----------



## tonyf3

schalliol said:


> With 35 pages, I thought I'd just add my name to the list of Mac users that really want TiVoToGo. I've even gotten 7 referrals in the formal system with several before it started. I'm getting some "bad PR" with the Mac users of the bunch over this.


Spoke with a Tech support rep Monday on an unrelated issue. He said he was a Mac user too and said he was waiting as well. He said they were working on it. For what it's worth.


----------



## tonyf3

Got a good look at Eye TV this week. Buddy of mine had a the box in his office. My next purchase for having my shows on my laptop for viewing and burning. Eye TV. I also have a Canopus ADC-55 box. My next order for basic DVR viewing will be my Cable company's setop box for $9.95. I'm not buying, or supporting another damn thing from this floundering company until ALL MAC SUPPORT ISSUES ARE RESOLVED! Have a nice day TiVo.


----------



## mattman

I think the EyeTV product has a lot to recommend it. My only problem is that I can't use them with my digital cable system because the stream is encrypted. Until that problem can be solved I guess they are off my radar.

Matt


----------



## tonyf3

Still waiting for TiVo togo for Mac: Month 5, Day 128. How's the hard work coming?? anyone,...anyone....Bueller...Bill.?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

tonyf3 said:


> Still waiting for TiVo togo for Mac: Month 5, Day 128. How's the hard work coming?? anyone,...anyone....Bueller...Bill.?


I bet the odds are greater for the CFO to get released before TTG for Mac is released


----------



## Fofer

Until Tivo Desktop HMO under Tiger gets officially fixed, I think we can safely say TTG ain't going anywhere either...


----------



## bedelman

Fofer said:


> Until Tivo Desktop HMO under Tiger gets officially fixed, I think we can safely say TTG ain't going anywhere either...


Not to mention the whole Rendezvous/Bonjour doesn't seem to work with USB 2.0 adapters thing...


----------



## sad05

mattman said:


> I think the EyeTV product has a lot to recommend it. My only problem is that I can't use them with my digital cable system because the stream is encrypted. Until that problem can be solved I guess they are off my radar.


Awww crap. Is that right? I was looking at EyeTV as a replacement too ... but I have digital cable. Are there specs on EyeTVs site detailing what it will and won't work with?


----------



## Quevar

I don't know how well they listen, but give them suggestions.

research{dot}tivo{dot}com/suggestions/ (sorry, can't post links yet)

I just told them that I want TTG on the Mac (at least a timeframe) and AAC support. The more of us that fill it out, the better the chance of them listening. I don't know how long this suggestion page has been up, but I just found it today.


----------



## rog

Quevar said:


> I don't know how well they listen, but give them suggestions.
> 
> research{dot}tivo{dot}com/suggestions/ (sorry, can't post links yet)


Good idea!

I think this page might be new?

I like the feature list at the end. I checked off iTunes/AAC support, and it made it point to ask (politely) for better Mac support in all three of the comment areas. I specifically mentioned the lack of even HMO support with Tiger.

Here's the link:

http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/


----------



## donsullivan

Has anybony seen any committment at all from TiVo that they are actually going to update TiVo Desktop to support Tiger? The web site acknowledges that it doesn't work, but I can't seem to find anything that even suggests that they are 'working on it' much less makes a committment as to when it might be available.

Every indication from TiVo is that we are at the end of Mac support. Everything has stopped working and ther is no committment that it is going to be fixed.


----------



## Poogie

> Has anybony seen any committment at all from TiVo that they are actually going to update TiVo Desktop to support Tiger?


I called TiVo Customer Support and was told they were working on it, but had no timeline. So the moral of the story is, don't hold your breath!


----------



## AnteL0pe

bedelman said:


> Not to mention the whole Rendezvous/Bonjour doesn't seem to work with USB 2.0 adapters thing...


My iBook, with Tiger on it, is communicating with my TiVo which is using a Linksys USB 2.0 adapter. I'll be upgrading my DP 1GHz G4 next week, we'll see if it continues to work....


----------



## bedelman

AnteL0pe said:


> My iBook, with Tiger on it, is communicating with my TiVo which is using a Linksys USB 2.0 adapter. I'll be upgrading my DP 1GHz G4 next week, we'll see if it continues to work....


Which model TiVo do you have? I've been able to reproduce this with TiVo Desktop 1.9.1 on three different DVR models (Pioneer - 275 series, Series 2 - 240 series, Series 2 - 540 series). If you enable the "Bonjour" menu in the bookmarks bar in Safari, are you able to see your TiVo on the pull-down list?

JavaHMO which doesn't use Bonjour/Rendezvous for discovery, works without a problem


----------



## Bigg

You people are driving me nuts. Most everyting in this thread is a non-issue. Mac users are so small a group (I have XP and OSX) that it is just not a big deal. You bought your TiVo as DVR NOT a network device. Next it sucks as a music player and if thats all you can do for a music player, iTunes converts to MP3 like the rest of the world, and fairplay allows burns that can be ripped. Oh, and you can decrypt TTG shows with a PC or use VPC, which any sane person needs anyways, as there are a lot of programs that plain don't run on Macs, oh and if you can't deal with the world standard operating system (yes it sucks deal with it), get a DVD burner, burn the stuff over analog and then rip the DMGs to your HDD, or if you have power, just stinking play it off of the disk.


----------



## Fofer

Ladies and gentlemen, "the world according to Bigg."


----------



## bedelman

Bigg said:


> You people are driving me nuts...


Sounds like an "expert" opinion to me. The kind of expert that already knows everything and is unwilling or sees no point in learning about anything new.

_Definition of "expert" -- pronounced as "Ex-Spurt"
An "ex" is something that had been -- example - ex-student is a former student
A "spurt" is a small drip

Thereby an "expert" is a former small drip_


----------



## sad05

Bigg said:


> You people are driving me nuts. Oh, and you can decrypt TTG shows with a PC or use VPC, which any sane person needs anyways, as there are a lot of programs that plain don't run on Macs, oh and if you can't deal with the world standard operating system (yes it sucks deal with it), get a DVD burner, burn the stuff over analog and then rip the DMGs to your HDD, or if you have power, just stinking play it off of the disk.


So your suggestions for Mac user who already own a system is spend more money to get the same functionality?

1) Buy a PC - $500+
2) Buy Virtual PC - $250
3) Buy a DVD burner - $300 +


----------



## arc6th

Bigg, you're just gonna have to suck on it and like it.

We Mac users must now re-evaluate TiVo's offerings just as we evaluate every other company that only manufactures items that can communicate Windoze OS computers. This is a process we do all the time with gadgets - music players, mobile phones, etc. "Yeah, they work with Windoze, but do they work with Macs easily? ...with extra work? ...at all?" Often we choose purchase an object to use simply as it's main purpose without ever being able to utilize the extra features Windoze-users have. 

We haven't had to do that with TiVo's Series 2 DVR, obviously, as everything had been released for the Mac, eventually. The CFO's comments and the subsequent, standard corporate non-retraction retraction leads us to believe it is very possible TiVo isn't working very hard at solutions for Apple's OS 10.4 and/or TTG, if at all (but I really don't want to think they're lying). That said, many of us would still select TiVo's box as our DVR. Many others, whose priorities are the music, photos or portability, will obviously be required to find other suppliers. 

Until TiVo, Inc. states definitively they will not be able to, or choose not to, support the Mac, though, we will continue to remind them we are here, not happy, but hopeful.

Until the situation is resolved one way or another, you might consider ignoring the Mac subjects.


----------



## dropd

Question for the board: am i allowed to call THIS guy a troll?

If you don't care about mac stuff, don't read the mac threads. it's not hard.



Bigg said:


> You people are driving me nuts. Most everyting in this thread is a non-issue. Mac users are so small a group (I have XP and OSX) that it is just not a big deal. You bought your TiVo as DVR NOT a network device. Next it sucks as a music player and if thats all you can do for a music player, iTunes converts to MP3 like the rest of the world, and fairplay allows burns that can be ripped. Oh, and you can decrypt TTG shows with a PC or use VPC, which any sane person needs anyways, as there are a lot of programs that plain don't run on Macs, oh and if you can't deal with the world standard operating system (yes it sucks deal with it), get a DVD burner, burn the stuff over analog and then rip the DMGs to your HDD, or if you have power, just stinking play it off of the disk.


----------



## Justin Thyme

No. If you think that a person or a group of people are making irrational notes, just ignore them or report them to a moderator.

I prefer the ignore route, except I sometimes break my own rules.

I happen to agree with Bigg that using a DVR- any dvr as a music player sucks. I also don't use it as a photo player.

It would be ironic if you went to all this bother and found you never really used the feature. I think most people will find themselves in that boat. But maybe BigG and I are in the minority.


----------



## AnteL0pe

Justin Thyme said:


> No. If you think that a person or a group of people are But maybe BigG and I are in the minority.


Could be. My wife and I use the TiVO to display images all the time, easily a couple times a month. I have an AirPort Express running into my stereo, and there are advantages to using the iTunes interface over the TiVo interface, but honestly it usually comes down to which ever i see first / can reach easiest, the TiVo remote or the closest laptop....

Oh, and i think calling that guy a troll is legit...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

dropd said:


> Question for the board: am i allowed to call THIS guy a troll?
> 
> If you don't care about mac stuff, don't read the mac threads. it's not hard.


well he is not a troll be definition becasue he did not point out any one user, merely stated his opinion and moved on. BUt while I jumped on posters who said TiVo promised TTG for MAc ans thus lied (which they did not) I found his solutions weird adn saw no one say that now they can not play music from their Mac or see photos etc all becasue TiVo has totally locked it down.

what I read was Mac users upset becasue they can not use the TiVo for these things coupled with their Mac only. His solutions did not address that problem very well.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Bigg said:


> You bought your TiVo as DVR NOT a network device.


I did? Could have fooled me. In fact, I explicitly had ethernet jacks installed in my new house in every location I planned on putting a TV.



Bigg said:


> a PC or use VPC, which any sane person needs anyways, as there are a lot of programs that plain don't run on Macs.


I've been working in IT for 15 years. I have no need for a PC. In fact, a PC would be useless to me in my type of work (unless I installed Linux on it.)



Bigg said:


> oh and if you can't deal with the world standard operating system (yes it sucks deal with it), get a DVD burner, burn the stuff over analog and then rip the DMGs to your HDD, or if you have power, just stinking play it off of the disk.


Wow. We never thought of those things!


----------



## Unix_Beard

Justin Thyme said:


> No. If you think that a person or a group of people are making irrational notes, just ignore them or report them to a moderator.
> 
> I prefer the ignore route, except I sometimes break my own rules.
> 
> I happen to agree with Bigg that using a DVR- any dvr as a music player sucks. I also don't use it as a photo player.
> 
> It would be ironic if you went to all this bother and found you never really used the feature. I think most people will find themselves in that boat. But maybe BigG and I are in the minority.


Actually, your use or impression of Tivo's utility has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with me. If you prefer to play CDs, then so be it. I find using a music server to be the only viable solution in my house. I have 9,000 songs on the server. I have ethernet in every room of the house. I control and listen to the server either by a Tivo or a computer. I don't want a computer in my living room or my bedroom. I don't want to cart CDs around the house. I don't expect YOU to live your life the way I live my own and I don't give a rat's ass about your opinion of a DVR as music appliance. (I would if thats what this thread is about. But as usual, you are just threadcrapping.)

And how the hell do you know if I will enjoy TTG? I KNOW I will because all I want to do with it is burn musical performances to DVD. Thats it. I want to be able to edit them together too.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Unix_Beard said:


> I have 9,000 songs on the server. I have ethernet in every room of the house. ...


Me too. (actually a few more than 9000). It used to be more but I went on a deleting mission one weekend to nuke the lame tracks I had.



Unix_Beard said:


> I don't want a computer in my living room or my bedroom. I don't want to cart CDs around the house. I don't expect YOU to live your life the way I live my own ...


Right. I have had an iPod with a 40GB drive for must be two years now and I prefer it on the altec lansing thing. It is more convenient than turning on the TV and looking for stuff in folders. I have a cradle in the bedroom too and just carry it with me. I don't have to have a TV set everywhere I may be working in the house. That might change if Homeplug AV or similar powerline network scheme would be supported by Tivo and CE vendors so I could play or view anything anywhere that had a power plug.

Besides, The Tivo UI sucks for finding music and pictures among tens of thousands of files, but that is my opinion. I know a lot of people like it though. Whatever floats your boat.

I agree TTG is important to want to have for other reasons. And if Tivo had unlimited resources, I would think it would be a nice idea to provide it to both Mac and Linux users.

But they don't and I agree with those who feel that Tivo has much much higher priority items to attend to than this.

Mac support would be nice.

Survival is nice too.

I'd give up TTG if it meant Tivo's survival. Could happen too- if Tivo lost a court case on it. And I wouldn't whine about it, I'd just hack my box and put tivowebplus on it.

End of story.


----------



## Unix_Beard

I agree that the Tivo interface for large libraries sucks. But I find it much more satisfying than carrying an iPod around with me. Some people don't like turning on the TV. It doesn't bother me. 

Anyway, the point is that streaming iTunes throughout my house was almost as important to me as the DVR functionality when I purchased my first one. (I don't use the Photo thing because you really need to make Albums in iPhoto for it to be useful - I'm too lazy.) If Tivo ends up not meeting my needs, I'll just plug another box into the ethernet jack. No big loss except that another formerly cool company fizzled. Here's hoping someone buys them except Microsoft.


----------



## AnteL0pe

I meticulously organize my photos and music. Have all the music in playlists by album as well as hundreds of other playlists, so it isnt an issues to find the music i want, though the interface could be a LOT better.


----------



## dropd

Justin Thyme said:


> No. If you think that a person or a group of people are making irrational notes, just ignore them or report them to a moderator.
> 
> I prefer the ignore route, except I sometimes break my own rules.
> 
> I happen to agree with Bigg that using a DVR- any dvr as a music player sucks. I also don't use it as a photo player.
> 
> It would be ironic if you went to all this bother and found you never really used the feature. I think most people will find themselves in that boat. But maybe BigG and I are in the minority.


For the record, I use(d) the TiVo HMO mp3 player almost every day until Tiger came out.

Now I only use my airport express.


----------



## rog

dropd said:


> For the record, I use(d) the TiVo HMO mp3 player almost every day until Tiger came out.
> 
> Now I only use my airport express.


Me too, except I _still_ use the TiVo HMO player! I am forced to use Dennis and iDriveX's hacks because the TiVo engineers can't seem to get their sh!t together.

Give me a break TiVo. If your users can fix this on their own, and you can't do the same after having access to the development builds for almost a year... it's just sad. I don't care what the "buy a PC" trolls think. This CAN BE FIXED. FIX IT.

:down: :down: :down:


----------



## TheSlyBear

Bigg said:


> a PC or use VPC, which any sane person needs anyways, as there are a lot of programs that plain don't run on Macs


I am quite sane and I have no need for a PC or VPC. Ever. I can think of no program that I need or want that doesn't run on OS X.

Small minds think in small ways.


----------



## Weaselboy

Bigg said:


> You people are driving me nuts. Most everyting in this thread is a non-issue. Mac users are so small a group (I have XP and OSX) that it is just not a big deal. You bought your TiVo as DVR NOT a network device. Next it sucks as a music player and if thats all you can do for a music player, iTunes converts to MP3 like the rest of the world, and fairplay allows burns that can be ripped. Oh, and you can decrypt TTG shows with a PC or use VPC, which any sane person needs anyways, as there are a lot of programs that plain don't run on Macs, oh and if you can't deal with the world standard operating system (yes it sucks deal with it), get a DVD burner, burn the stuff over analog and then rip the DMGs to your HDD, or if you have power, just stinking play it off of the disk.


Thank you Yoda.


----------



## davezatz

bootedbear said:


> I am quite sane and I have no need for a PC or VPC. Ever. I can think of no program that I need or want that doesn't run on OS X.


I wonder if you represent a majority or minority of Mac users. My household goes both ways... We have both Mac and PCs and we couldn't dump the PCs if we wanted (which we don't).

Regardless, the issue remains that Tivo used to support both the Mac and Windows environments equally and that no longer holds true. If all the Mac users migrated to ReplayTV they might change their stance on this lower priority of Mac development, but I think most of us will tolerate it. Tivo's got new sources of revenue anyhow with expanded advertising and cable deals (Comcast and those yet to come).


----------



## Unix_Beard

davezatz said:


> I wonder if you represent a majority or minority of Mac users. My household goes both ways... We have both Mac and PCs and we couldn't dump the PCs if we wanted (which we don't).
> 
> Regardless, the issue remains that Tivo used to support both the Mac and Windows environments equally and that no longer holds true. If all the Mac users migrated to ReplayTV they might change their stance on this lower priority of Mac development, but I think most of us will tolerate it. Tivo's got new sources of revenue anyhow with expanded advertising and cable deals (Comcast and those yet to come).


I'm with bootedbear. I have absolutely no need for a Windows machine. The only thing the Mac doesn't have is games. I'm a Nintendo guy anyhow.  My daughter has an iMac, my wife and I both have Powerbooks, and my iTunes server is an eMac. My exposure to Windows at work is enough! Blech.

The only way this effects me as a Tivo consumer is I won't buy another one. I have a lifetime unit and deactivated my monthly unit. I'll eventually go with an HD DVR from my cable company. The only reason I haven't already is because HD hasn't been rolled out to my area yet.


----------



## Justin Thyme

As a workaround, have any Mac users here looked into Monte'ing their Tivos and installing Tivowebplus and MFS_FTP or TyTools?

Or doing the same via PTVUpgrade if you have DirectTV?


----------



## rog

Justin Thyme said:


> As a workaround, have any Mac users here looked into Monte'ing their Tivos and installing Tivowebplus and MFS_FTP or TyTools?
> 
> Or doing the same via PTVUpgrade if you have DirectTV?


I'm not willing to socket the PROM on my relatively new 540 box -- at the risk of permanently damaging the motherboard -- just to obtain the full TiVoToGo functionality available for Windows machines. But that's just me...

I'm changing the subject a bit now. I just noticed that TiVoDesktop 1.9 (hacked through Dennis's intructions to work with Tiger) is using LAME to convert any WAV files in my iTunes library on the fly.

Perhaps this isn't news to anyone since Dennis pointed out you could do this with unprotected AAC files a while back. But I just thought I'd share -- LAME will convert WAV files for the TiVo HMO player.

I noticed my CPU was throttling when my playlist hit a WAV file. 'top' reported that lame and a process called "SoundConvert" were taking up around 60% of the CPU.


----------



## Justin Thyme

rog said:


> I'm not willing to socket the PROM on my relatively new 540 box -- at the risk of permanently damaging the motherboard -- .


I can understand that. But if you can pick up a Series 2.0 for $70 and sell the 540 for about the same, then you are only out the shipping charges. Then you wouldn't have to socket anything.

Just a thought on a different way to get from point A to point B. But certainly, it wouldn't deliver you TTG anyway. TTG comes with a DRM encryption scheme that makes editing the commercials out extremely slow. Oh, and you would miss the joys of Codec incompatibilities too.


----------



## TheSlyBear

davezatz said:


> I wonder if you represent a majority or minority of Mac users.


I really have no way of knowing regarding the Mac community in general, but in my own circle of other Mac users of my aquaintance, not a one has a PC in addition to their Macs.

Seriously, I can't see why anyone would insist that I need a PC. In addition to the usual e-mail and surfing, I use my Macs for video editing, Java development, desktop publishing, web development and web serving, word processing, slide presentations, database hosting, source control hosting, Quake3 and Unreal Tournament.

What's missing that I need to saddle myself with a PC? The whole reason I switched three years ago is I wanted to spend my time on my computer doing the things I want to do rather than futzing about with trying to keep it running.

TiVoToGo is hardly enough incentive to make me want to get into *that* boat again.


----------



## rog

bootedbear said:


> I really have no way of knowing regarding the Mac community in general, but in my own circle of other Mac users of my aquaintance, not a one has a PC in addition to their Macs.
> 
> Seriously, I can't see why anyone would insist that I need a PC. In addition to the usual e-mail and surfing, I use my Macs for video editing, Java development, desktop publishing, web development and web serving, word processing, slide presentations, database hosting, source control hosting, Quake3 and Unreal Tournament.
> 
> What's missing that I need to saddle myself with a PC? The whole reason I switched three years ago is I wanted to spend my time on my computer doing the things I want to do rather than futzing about with trying to keep it running.
> 
> TiVoToGo is hardly enough incentive to make me want to get into *that* boat again.


Have you ever had to deal with a hosted MS Access database? How do you deal with that on a Mac?

I'm nit-picking, but I'm trying to make a point.

You have to admit there are a few areas where PC's still have an advantage, and vice versa. The gap between Macs and PC's is narrowing every day, but it still exists. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. I still think that TiVo _must_ fix _at least_ the basic HMO functionality of TiVoDesktop for Tiger.

I'd beg for full TTG functionality, but I don't think we're going to get it.


----------



## Unix_Beard

rog said:


> Have you ever had to deal with a hosted MS Access database? How do you deal with that on a Mac?
> 
> I'm nit-picking, but I'm trying to make a point.
> 
> You have to admit there are a few areas where PC's still have an advantage, and vice versa. The gap between Macs and PC's is narrowing every day, but it still exists. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
> 
> I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. I still think that TiVo _must_ fix _at least_ the basic HMO functionality of TiVoDesktop for Tiger.
> 
> I'd beg for full TTG functionality, but I don't think we're going to get it.


Are you suggesting "Access" is an advantage? Access is a mess. As an organization, we choose Filemaker Pro as our desktop database. You can make a fully functional database in 1/5 of the time it would take in Access. If I were to get a Windows machine, I'd have to download and install just about every tool I use. openssh, rsync, apache, perl, python, ftp, etc. I install Tiger and I have it all. I still can't get over the fact you can't remotely login to a Windows box using ssh. I'm not the normal user, I know, but the statement that I need a Windows machine is completely erroneous!

The only reason we are having this conversation is because Windows is the predominant standard just as VHS was over Beta. Which is better is not part of the discussion. The masses prefer cheap ugly boxes riddled with security issues for one reason - COST. Even THAT isn't really an issue anymore. People have just drank the koolaid and listened to their neighbor's uninformed advice.


----------



## hammer32

Poogie said:


> I called TiVo Customer Support and was told they were working on it, but had no timeline. So the moral of the story is, don't hold your breath!


When we called to cancel service on our series 2 (last week) the guy was very understanding and said he had three other cancelations from Mac users that day.


----------



## sad05

bootedbear said:


> I really have no way of knowing regarding the Mac community in general, but in my own circle of other Mac users of my aquaintance, not a one has a PC in addition to their Macs.
> 
> TiVoToGo is hardly enough incentive to make me want to get into *that* boat again.


I'm with you.

I only own and work with Macs. There is no reason for me to own a Windows machine. And Tivo shutting us out is certainly not enough of a reason for me to go down that path.


----------



## TheSlyBear

rog said:


> Have you ever had to deal with a hosted MS Access database?


You're joking right? Why would I want to use a toy database like Access when I can use PostgreSQL or MySQL (and for FREE I might add) or any of the other industrial-strength databases that run on the Mac?

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that there is no genre of software in which I cannot get a program that does what I need for the Mac. Yes, there are certain titles, like Access, that are not available, but I don't need a specific title -- I need something that meets my requirements.

Your choice of Access to make your point was unfortunate since it such a joke compared to competing systems in its category.


----------



## TheSlyBear

sad05 said:


> I only own and work with Macs.


I envy you on the work front. I have to deal with XP at work.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Not to change the subject too radically, but about TTG for macs,

If no one has bothered to look into it in any depth, does anyone know of any sites or notes that discuss mac users employing TivoWebPlus or other mod's to get TTG functionality?

I have mac users asking me questions about it and I don't know. It seems odd that this thread would not have any substantive discussion of workarounds after 736 notes. Perhaps there is some constructive advice that can be offered on practical solutions.


----------



## Fofer

Justin Thyme said:


> Not to change the subject too radically, but about TTG for macs,
> 
> If no one has bothered to look into it in any depth, does anyone know of any sites or notes that discuss mac users employing TivoWebPlus or other mod's to get TTG functionality?


As long as you can extract the native .ty files, using the standard techniques we can't discuss here, then you can use mplayer to play them back.


----------



## rog

bootedbear: no, I wasn't joking. Perhaps I did miss your point though. But you missed mine:



rog said:


> You have to admit there are a few areas where PC's still have an advantage, *and vice versa*.


Notice my added emphasis -- it works both ways. Any sane person can understand that certain tools have advantages in certain situations.

You're changing the argument a bit by saying "there is no _genre_ of software" that isn't available on the Mac. If you're talking in vague generalities like that, then of course you're right.

All I'm saying is, there are certain situations where a Windows machine (or a Mac, or a Linux box) is the ideal tool for the job.

I picked Access because it is a common db platform for hosting web services -- particularly for companies on MS platforms that cannot afford (or choose not to purchase) MS SQL.

Personally, I'd go with MySQL any day. I feel silly arguing over this with you guys because in the end, I'm typing this on my iBook, wishing TiVo would support the Mac platform!

I got off on a tangential, pointless argument here, because that's what I like to do. My girlfriend doesn't put up with my constant role as devil's advocate as well as you all.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Fofer said:


> As long as you can extract the native .ty files, using the standard techniques we can't discuss here, then you can use mplayer to play them back.


Thanks, but we don't have to mention any forbidden stuff. Once you get TivoWebPlus the rest is all simple endgame.

The part I don't understand is getting the mod's onto the Tivo Drive if you don't have a mac. We all know that site where this is discussed. But most of these instructions as you know involve a PC rebooted as a linux box. I have heard you can run the commands using terminal for linux, but I would suspect that OSX might object to you mucking with a volume in the manner that the mod's require.

In any case I don't see a thread there or any site on the web for that matter that says, right- you want the TTG features, just do steps 1 through 33 and you are done. You could tell people yah here is a site with 10,000 uber geek notes- figure it out for yourself the answer is there, but it is as good as telling them nothing.


----------



## donsullivan

hammer32 said:


> When we called to cancel service on our series 2 (last week) the guy was very understanding and said he had three other cancelations from Mac users that day.


This is the part that I think troubles me most for the future of TiVo. Regardless of any allegiance or preference one might have to a platform, TiVo has just plain handled these two issues very, very badly. How many companies have learned over the years that if you are not honest with your customers, they will not be your customers for long.

I don't even have to like the answer, but if they have decided to abandon support for the Mac platform than just have the respect for your customers (especially those who bought into the concept from the beginning in 99) to be honest with them about it. It was bad enough when we were left dangling with no real committment on TTG but now that there is absolutely no committment to even continue support for OS X starting with Tiger, the least they could do is just come out and say it.

It is just horribly bad business practice to decide it is acceptable for customers to loose functionality and make no committment whether you even intend to fix it EVER. If they've decided they no longer want to make this investment to support OS X, than stop making any other representations to your customers, and just tell them that you are ending support for the platform. They would not be the first to make such a decision, but at least the rest had the business sense to just come out and say it.


----------



## Justin Thyme

I just don't get it. They say on their website "We are currently working on ways to enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers."

You don't like how long it is taking. You don't like that you don't have a date.

Well, I have a DVD writer Tivo, it is still sitting around without any TTG support. I have been told the same thing, that they are working on it. I also don't have a date. 

Maybe there were fewer people in my boat so I didn't get the support first. I don't feel like I'm being treated like a second class citizen or compare my situation to that of Jewish people in pre Hitler Europe and some have done. I don't think that there is any emotional favoritism of one platform over another. If there were, we have only to observe that Tivo's management chose linux and Tivo's engineers are all Linux guys yet Tivo has not said they are even working on TTG for Linux. 

So ok we see progress. Apparently my group is next because now they are at least are saying "summer". Maybe your group is third. Maybe my group is ahead of yours because it is a Tivo Branded Unit or there are more of us than mac users. Maybe it is because we don't complain so bitterly. Who knows. More likely the delay has something to do with the legal or technical issues of using a different DRM encoding mechanism, or using the one they have in 7.1 on a Mac platform. But who knows.

Apple and Microsoft give dates, but they never meet their schedules so I don't really know what a date gets you.


----------



## dropd

Justin Thyme said:


> Apple and Microsoft give dates, but they never meet their schedules so I don't really know what a date gets you.


half right.

when tiger was announced, the timeframe given was "first half of 2005". at the time, people widely assumed they'd ship on or around the last day of june.

turns out, they made it 2 months early. pretty nice.

longhorn, on the other hand...


----------



## Justin Thyme

No software company is immune. Nasa is not immune. It is a generic problem. The strategy of many organizations including Nasa and possibly Tivo is to not set fixed dates. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that Apple ever had an official release date for Tiger.

I think it is wise.


----------



## Lon

Justin Thyme said:


> No software company is immune. Nasa is not immune. It is a generic problem. The strategy of many organizations including Nasa and possibly Tivo is to not set fixed dates.
> 
> I think it is wise.


Absolutely amazing 

This is not a case of slipping shipping dates.

This is a case of no date set.

Since when has NASA ever (EVER) not set a date?

Wow!


----------



## Justin Thyme

Lon said:


> Absolutely amazing
> ...Since when has NASA ever (EVER) not set a date?
> 
> Wow!


Huh?

Maybe you have been asleep the last few years or you haven't been paying attention to the process for returning the Shuttle to space. Post Challenger, the Nasa mantra has been- "We will no longer be schedule driven. No fixed date. We will fly when we are ready."

Apple didn't set a date either. Up until a few weeks ago, Tivo DVD recorder folks didn't even have a timeframe like Apple's "1st Q 2005". Yet it is not a fixed date- only "sometime this summer" we will have TTG support.

Tivo has said they are working on the problem. Folks eager for the latest and greatest don't like the fact that Tivo refuses to get specific, and spend a lot of unproductive effort at reading some dark meanings into that.

Meanwhile, I have heard nothing about references to sites that give Mac users a simple to follow DIY guide on how to mod a Series 2 so you can get all the features of TTG. There are instructions if you own a PC, but not any that I know of for how to do it if you only own Macs.


----------



## rog

Justin Thyme said:


> Meanwhile, I have heard nothing about references to sites that give Mac users a simple to follow DIY guide on how to mod a Series 2 so you can get all the features of TTG. There are instructions if you own a PC, but not any that I know of for how to do it if you only own Macs.


People sophisticated enough to extract unencrypted video of their TiVo don't need a step by step reference guide... furthermore, that has nothing to do with this thread. Wrong audience.

We've already talked about why most of us Mac users with modern TiVo's are stuck (socketing the PROM, etc.). Your only alternative left was to "pick up an [older] Series 2 for $70 and sell the 540". That's a crappy solution and you know it.

The *only* other solution right now is to use a PC for the mid step of conversion to MPEG. And that is no good for people with no PC!

All we are asking for is for TiVo to step up and at least be honest about where they are with Mac support. There have been no consistent answers.


----------



## Justin Thyme

rog said:


> People sophisticated enough to extract unencrypted video of their TiVo don't need a step by step reference guide... furthermore, that has nothing to do with this thread. Wrong audience.


No, you don't get it.

I have Mac users asking me via PM how to do it because they can't get any answers from this web site. There are mac users who are simply interested in solving their problem about how to get TTG features.

The title of this thread is "Mac Users lack TivoToGo support. It seems to me that describing practical steps to deal with that situation are germaine to the discussion. Mac Users can get TTG features but you would rather that no one hear about that, suggesting it is off topic.

There are many sets of Mac users. Only until recently was it necessary to socket a tivo to perform these mods. That leaves a heck of a lot of Tivos that can get TTG features. And what about the 2/3 of TIvo users who have DTivo's? The people affected by your objection are in the extreme minority. What is troubling is that you know that and yet repeat this minor point as if it had any bearing on the vast majority of cases.

I understand your feeling that many people simply won't want to go to the trouble of modding their system. But it is unfair to write everyone off, and not even bother to throw them a line. I am not current on Macs anymore. You guys are. How about lending a hand? Your statement that anyone needing instructions would not be the kind of person who could carry them out begs the question. People have to start somewhere. If not at the beginning with recipes and instructions, then where?

If you don't know the answer, then fine, you need not respond. But it is mistaken to think that seeking the answer about workarounds is not a constructive use of one's time.


----------



## rog

Justin Thyme said:


> No, you don't get it.
> 
> I have Mac users asking me via PM how to do it because they can't get any answers from this web site. There are mac users who are simply interested in solving their problem about how to get TTG features.
> 
> The title of this thread is "Mac Users lack TivoToGo support. It seems to me that describing practical steps to deal with that situation are germaine to the discussion. Mac Users can get TTG features but you would rather that no one hear about that, suggesting it is off topic.
> 
> There are many sets of Mac users. Only until recently was it necessary to socket a tivo to perform these mods. That leaves a heck of a lot of Tivos that can get TTG features. And what about the 2/3 of TIvo users who have DTivo's? The people affected by your objection are in the extreme minority. What is troubling is that you know that and yet repeat this minor point as if it had any bearing on the vast majority of cases.
> 
> I understand your feeling that many people simply won't want to go to the trouble of modding their system. But it is unfair to write everyone off, and not even bother to throw them a line. I am not current on Macs anymore. You guys are. How about lending a hand? Your statement that anyone needing instructions would not be the kind of person who could carry them out begs the question. People have to start somewhere. If not at the beginning with recipes and instructions, then where?
> 
> If you don't know the answer, then fine, you need not respond. But it is mistaken to think that seeking the answer about workarounds is not a constructive use of one's time.


I hear what you are saying, and I felt the same way you do now when I made my first post in this thread long ago. But you aren't bringing anything new to the table, as you seem to think you are. The fact still remains, there are only two ways for a Mac user to get "TTG features":

1) Use a PC for the middle step of MPEG conversion. 
2) Hack the TiVo (if possible), extract unencrypted video, and transfer to Mac (if possible).

Number 1 doesn't work for those without a PC. Number 2 may or may not work for those without a PC, and in any case, it is only desirable for a relatively small audience.

I'll grant there is some benefit if you can help savvy Mac users with step 2. Go for it.

All I'm saying is, these aren't new solutions you're offering, they are CRAPPY work-arounds. What we really need, and what I think this thread is aimed at, is for TiVo to step up and give us an honest timeline for TRUE Mac/TiVoToGo integration.


----------



## tonyf3

Originally Posted by rog: What we really need, and what I think this thread is aimed at, is for TiVo to step up and give us an honest timeline for TRUE Mac/TiVoToGo integration. 


Exactly! thank you ROG. That's been the point since I started this thread. 

Somethings TiVo could have done better, then we would have no ax to grind. 
1. Better communication about Mac development. 
2. Announce before the Jan. 05 release, that Mac support would be coming in Q_? 
3. If they had no idea because of Legal, Financial, or Support from Apple. Then just say so, and everyone would shut up. 
4. Don't blow off your users issues or ignore them. It creates bad feelings about your company your products, incites rebellion, anarchy etc.


----------



## dropd

Justin Thyme said:


> Apple didn't set a date either.


Justin, you are simply wrong. When Tiger 10.4 was announced at the 2004 WWDC conference, Steve Jobs stood on stage and said it was coming in the first half of 2005. It was even up on a presentation slide. That's the timeframe they gave. Officially. And they delivered.

Please, stick to the facts.


----------



## davezatz

rog said:


> I'll grant there is some benefit if you can help savvy Mac users with step 2. Go for it.
> 
> All I'm saying is, these aren't new solutions you're offering, they are CRAPPY work-arounds.


One person's crap is another person's um facial mud? I don't know the steps/process either, but maybe it's time to compile them since Tivo hasn't stepped up to the plate and for the moment my site has got the bandwidth. 

I have a Mac. I have a Tivo. Someone want to point me to the specific postings on the site which we can't mention because the sky will fall to get me started...?


----------



## Justin Thyme

Certainly I agree that any time you have to bypass consumer software solutions, you are not talking about an elegant solution. Yet consumer software cannot go all the places consumers can go, so there will always be Neo's. Many folks don't want to go there. Fine. Do battle with corporations with letter writing campaigns or whatever. Maybe there is some way of getting some traction there- if so, more power to you, and best wishes. Other people simply want to get from point A to point B and don't care to talk endlessly about mcReligion or mcPolitics in order to make some progress against more immediate tasks at hand.

The scheme would not necessarily be a temporary hack. In the first place, Tivo's official announcement is does not necessarily commit them to delivering TTG- ever. Secondly, even if you had TTG on a Mac you might prefer to do this scheme because it will deliver superior video- even Hidef video- for the largest set of users (dTivo).

Yet I can't recommend anything because I can't confirm it. In the interest of serving such mac users, what I understand is this much:

If you can get TivoWebPlus onto your Tivo, then you are 99% of the way there. This part does not do file transfers, so as ccwf says, this much is ok to talk about it on this site. What is in TivoWebPlus is something called a Hack Manager, and from that interface you can load modules (which we can't talk about) from any other computer including macs and linux boxes. That is the 1% part. I gather that for the 1% part- one of the things currently works only marginally in Tiger but talks directly to the Tivo. A second thing may be tiger safe since it is is just vanilla FTP, and so there is a mechanism for those on linux boxes as well.

Now if you have a DTivo, PTVupgrade will do the TivoWeb part so complete novices or those that just don't have the time can simply pay to have the hard part done. I think that part will work, but I have heard of no one using a mac who has, nor do I know how gnarly the workflow of doing typical TTG like operations would be. Only a Mac user who actually has been doing this would know. I think there are others besides Fofer that could provide Dave with info on that part via PM.

For those who do not have a DTivo or don't want to fork over the cash, we come to the part of the investigation that is the hard part. How to mod a Tivo if you don't also own a PC. Maybe it is trivial and you can just boot a Mac to Linux and all the steps work just the same. I haven't seen any notes that say that, but maybe you can and I just haven't read enough. The answer might be on the other site, I just don't know- that has to be investigated by someone who knows the realities of current Macs.

If they can borrow a PC that they can crack the lid and replace drives temporarily, then it is similar to the process of doing a Hard drive upgrade, only there are more arcane command lines to type. But all they are doing on the PC is actually booting into Linux as you probably know. That part is well documented.


----------



## Qix

There has been a lot said here about TiVo and the Mac. As an AVID Mac user, and a jilted lover of my TiVo I'm a bit shocked by the way that the company that changed the way I watched TV would ignore a large percentage of their user base. Think about it, the average mac user is:
*Smarter
*makes more money
* is more technically savvy
* is more apt to USE the technology and PAY for it.

Why ignore us?

Recently I moved to a new apartment and in the process bought an HDTV. I thought long and hard about what to do, and finally ended up dumping my TiVo service for the following reasons:
* no HD support for non sat boxes.
* no T2G for Mac
* no better audio options than standard RCA out.

Three reasons that I ended up going ahead and dumping my service. Two were solved with the Comcrap DVR box. I'm not happy, but TiVo doesn't support me as a customer, and I pay the same $12.95 a month than everyone else does yet I can't use all of the systems features because of their lack of foresight?

Sorry TiVo, I'll take my business elsewhere.


----------



## tonyf3

"We haven't committed to any plans [for integration] to it because of the cost," Courtney said.

He added that being able to watch media on Apple computers using TiVo seems unlikely "unless we find a way to record it under the current platform, and I don't think that will happen in the next few years."

Did he say YEARS!
Hey! Do us all a favor "Quit your job now" and let people who care about these platforms develope the software and solutions the paying users want, and deserve.


----------



## davezatz

tonyf3 said:


> Hey! Do us all a favor "Quit your job now" and let people who care about these platforms develope the software and solutions the paying users want, and deserve.


That's not such a bad idea... His 2004 pay would have covered Mac development.

David Courtney, 45
Chief Financial Officer
$1.35M

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=TIVO


----------



## AnteL0pe

Justin Thyme said:


> If no one has bothered to look into it in any depth, does anyone know of any sites or notes that discuss mac users employing TivoWebPlus or other mod's to get TTG functionality?


www.mactivo.com used to be half decent. Looks like theyre gone now though.... They had instructions and disk images to get everything going. Kinda sucks that theyre gone as I didnt grab those disk images.



rog said:


> I picked Access because it is a common db platform for hosting web services


Common? I dont know about that, maybe it was 10 years ago, but i wouldnt trust any web developer who thought using Access was a good idea.



Justin Thyme said:


> I just don't get it. They say on their website "We are currently working on ways to enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers."
> 
> You don't like how long it is taking. You don't like that you don't have a date.


The fact that they havent set a date is a clear indication that they are not working on it. Or if they are, that the date is so far off (years?) that it really isnt worth waiting for. Oh, and you have the statements by the CFO that were a bit troubling.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

a certain tool is available for Mac OSX that completes the hacks on the Mac side. Really doing extraction from a TiVo with a Mac is not really any different than with a PC. Which does leave the problems of hacking newer series 2 as stated above by Rog, etc but if you have read the threqad to this point then you know it is not a perfect world anyway 

check out this page for more
http://www.hitormiss.org/2005/03/07/tivo-to-dvd-via-mac-osx/


----------



## davezatz

ZeoTiVo said:


> a certain tool is available for Mac OSX that completes the hacks on the Mac side. Really doing extraction from a TiVo with a Mac is not really any different than with a PC.


The extraction I understand, I'm trying to figure out how to mod/prepare the Tivo without PC intervention for the folks who are monogamous. It would be nice if we could come up with a guide to put out there, but there is little information and not well organized... not to mention the task may not be for the feint of heart.


----------



## Justin Thyme

AnteL0pe said:


> www.mactivo.com used to be half decent. Looks like theyre gone now though...


Thanks. At least I can look around for outbound links to that site and maybe turn something up.



AnteL0pe said:


> The fact that they havent set a date is a clear indication that they are not working on it...


Up until two weeks ago, there wasn't even a vague time period for releasing TTG support for dvd recorder Tivos.

Tivo's official statement is that they are working on it. I think that means they are working on it.

Even if that were not the case, I don't think there is any effective way of pressuring Tivo to deliver, so I don't see the point of wringing one's hands over it.

But that's just my opinion.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> The extraction I understand, I'm trying to figure out how to mod/prepare the Tivo without PC intervention for the folks who are monogamous. It would be nice if we could come up with a guide to put out there, but there is little information and not well organized... not to mention the task may not be for the feint of heart.


since there are iso images you can put on CDs now and boot from to do the Hard drive work I do not think it matters if the PC runs windows or Mac OS. I assume Macs use IDE drives and can boot from the CDROM drive. The instructions are the same from what I have read. I have not felt the need to go in and hack my TiVo though so this is from my reading.

Still I agree it is not for the feint of heart and not to be done lightly as it changes how you get updates and deal with other new features (which is why I have not hacked one of mine yet - I did not feel it worth the hassle of maintaining the TiVo, YMMV) but it seems clear that TTG for Mac is not likely for a while so it is worth noting that hacking and running it via a MAc is possible. I think Tiger support is getting better for that certain tool as well.


----------



## AnteL0pe

Justin Thyme said:


> Thanks. At least I can look around for outbound links to that site and maybe turn something up.


Good luck, im not having any luck finding anything that pointed to that site, that was pointed to from that site or even a working copy of it on archive.org


----------



## gonzotek

ZeoTiVo said:


> since there are iso images you can put on CDs now and boot from to do the Hard drive work I do not think it matters if the PC runs windows or Mac OS. I assume Macs use IDE drives and can boot from the CDROM drive. The instructions are the same from what I have read. I have not felt the need to go in and hack my TiVo though so this is from my reading.


Problem is macs are, well, macs  and won't run(or boot) code compiled for the x86 architecture(without heavy emulation anyway), so boot-cds would have to be compiled for the PowerPC architecture. If one already has been, then the rest would be as easy (or difficult) as doing it under an x86 linux build or whatever.


----------



## rog

AnteL0pe said:


> Common? I dont know about that, maybe it was 10 years ago, but i wouldnt trust any web developer who thought using Access was a good idea.


Whatever. I told you guys this was a silly tangential argument. If you want to keep hounding it, here's some sites that are using Access for hosted DB's:

http://www.pam.org
http://www.newtrade.co.uk
http://www.pinehouse.co.uk
(I could list on and on)

Using ODBC to connect to an Access DB *is* quite common. It has many advantages over MySQL or MS SQL (insert other DB here) that I won't get into.

Of course, MySQL and MS SQL (etc) have advantages over Access too.

Like I've said several times now, every tool has its use. Anyone who claims there is one DB to rule them all, or that one particular DB is not used for websites, has their head up their ass.

My point was a simple one. There are times when a PC is the ideal tool. There are times when a Mac is the ideal tool. There are times when a Linux/Unix box is the ideal tool.

I can't believe anyone is still arguing this point.


----------



## rog

gonzotek said:


> Problem is macs are, well, macs  and won't run(or boot) code compiled for the x86 architecture(without heavy emulation anyway), so boot-cds would have to be compiled for the PowerPC architecture. If one already has been, then the rest would be as easy (or difficult) as doing it under an x86 linux build or whatever.


Exactly. The weeknees ISO is compiled for x86. I assume others are as well. They will NOT boot on a modern PPC-based Mac.

However, couldn't one grab a PPC-enabled Linux boot disk (like Knoppix maybe?), and then download and compile mfstools for PPC? Is the source code available for mfstools?


----------



## gonzotek

rog said:


> Exactly. The weeknees ISO is compiled for x86. I assume others are as well. They will NOT boot on a modern PPC-based Mac.
> 
> However, couldn't one grab a PPC-enabled Linux boot disk (like Knoppix maybe?), and then download and compile mfstools for PPC? Is the source code available for mfstools?


It's beyond my skillset, but that's what it would take. MFStools are on sourceforge:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/mfstools/


----------



## rog

I just found this:

http://ask.pvrblog.com/2004/10/ppc_linux_boot_.html

Indeed, you should be able to use a fairly standard PPC-based Linux boot CD, then compile the mfstools from the source (which gonzotek just posted the link to).

There are several PPC-based Linux boot CD's:

Gentoo:
http://www.gentoo.org/

Knoppix PPC:
http://debian.tu-bs.de/knoppix/powerPC/


----------



## ZeoTiVo

just do a search on "PPC based TiVo hacks"

the CDs are out there, I just do not want to link to anything directly and assumed a PPC based. getting into touchy ground so being half vauge though TiVo has no options here and I do not feel so bad about discussing this on forum.


----------



## bedelman

rog said:


> Using ODBC to connect to an Access DB *is* quite common. It has many advantages over MySQL or MS SQL (insert other DB here) that I won't get into.


There are plenty of ODBC drivers that work under Mac OSX -- so if you're merely hooking to an MS-Access database using ODBC, I would imagine you could do so from a Macintosh (unless Microsoft is using a proprietary _flavor_ of ODBC for MS-Access.


----------



## gonzotek

ZeoTiVo said:


> just do a search on "PPC based TiVo hacks"
> 
> the CDs are out there, I just do not want to link to anything directly and assumed a PPC based. getting into touchy ground so being half vauge though TiVo has no options here and I do not feel so bad about discussing this on forum.


Did some digging and there is a ppc iso boot disc on sourceforge. Any interested user could try doing a "require all words search" for "tivo ppc" with the sourceforge search engine.


----------



## rog

gonzotek said:


> Did some digging and there is a ppc iso boot disc on sourceforge. Any interested user could try doing a "require all words search" for "tivo ppc" with the sourceforge search engine.


Indeed!

There you go Justin.


----------



## dropd

Justin Thyme said:


> Up until two weeks ago, there wasn't even a vague time period for releasing TTG support for dvd recorder Tivos.


Yes there was. From the moment TiVoToGo was announced, TiVo was claiming that support for the DVD-recorder TiVos would be "later this year" (meaning sometime in 2005).

That qualifies as a vague time period.

This is from the VERY FIRST POST of the sticky thread announcing TiVoToGo availability, and was posted by TiVoBill:



TiVoBill said:


> DVD Recorder with TiVo models from Humax, Toshiba, and Pioneer will not receive the TiVoToGo feature *until later this year*. Toshiba DVD Player models will receive the update during the scheduled rollout process. Please do not sign up at the priority list if you have a DVD Recorder with TiVo model.


Please stop spreading misinformation.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Yeah, but are they the correct builds of Linux that will run on whichever mac box the user has, and will that version run the required tools (eg. large hard drive support).

Getting it wrong without confirmation could wind up bricking someone's Tivo. Better that someone who has done it would have written it up and we could see multiple people confirm that the recipe was good.

But maybe the set of folks who want to maintain non PC purity who also have the interest to do this is actually very small.


----------



## rog

Justin Thyme said:


> Yeah, but are they the correct builds of Linux that will run on whichever mac box the user has, and will that version run the required tools (eg. large hard drive support).


See gonzotek's post above, #769, and follow the breadtrail. There is a PPC-based boot CD specifically for TiVo hacking.



Justin Thyme said:


> Getting it wrong without confirmation could wind up bricking someone's Tivo. Better that someone who has done it would have written it up and we could see multiple people confirm that the recipe was good.
> 
> But maybe the set of folks who want to maintain non PC purity who also have the interest to do this is actually very small.


This is what I've been trying to tell you! Hellloooooo?


----------



## bedelman

New options "to go"...

*EyeTV 1.8 adds H.264, iTunes and EyeTV 'to go' for PSP *
May 17 - 14:25 EDT Elgato Systems today announced the release of a comprehensive new version of the award-winning EyeTV Software. EyeTV 1.8 offers allows users to experience additional advanced enjoyment with EyeTV "to go,", a solution by Elgato that allows Mac owners to conveniently export EyeTV recordings to Sonys Playstation Portable (PSP) and other mobile devices. EyeTV 1.8 is fully compatible with the new Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger and includes support for the video codec H.264 in QuickTime 7. Newly added iTunes support provides users with even more options for increasing their personal libraries. Audio tracks can be exported from EyeTV recordings and effortlessly imported into an iTunes music library, creating direct access to television and film soundtracks.​


----------



## tonyf3

bedelman said:


> New options "to go"...
> 
> *EyeTV 1.8 adds H.264, iTunes and EyeTV 'to go' for PSP *
> May 17 - 14:25 EDT Elgato Systems today announced the release of a comprehensive new version of the award-winning EyeTV Software. EyeTV 1.8 offers allows users to experience additional advanced enjoyment with EyeTV "to go,", a solution by Elgato that allows Mac owners to conveniently export EyeTV recordings to Sonys Playstation Portable (PSP) and other mobile devices. EyeTV 1.8 is fully compatible with the new Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger and includes support for the video codec H.264 in QuickTime 7. Newly added iTunes support provides users with even more options for increasing their personal libraries. Audio tracks can be exported from EyeTV recordings and effortlessly imported into an iTunes music library, creating direct access to television and film soundtracks.​


Just reviewed their whole product line. I'll get this before I buy another TiVo. At least the Elgato Guys get it. Mac only! Take that! TiVo, Directshow DRM, Windows Media, etc. 
I'm done! unless TiVo pulls a rabbit out of their...... and if so it had better be soon. 
As in Yesterday! 
I'll need to upgrade to an Airport extreme base station from my 802.11b Snow. Hopefully my old G4 450 can act as the server for it. I was wondering what to do with it once I get a shiny new G5.

Thanks Bedelman!


----------



## bedelman

It doesn't look like it will do anything beyond analog cable though


----------



## rog

bedelman said:


> It doesn't look like it will do anything beyond analog cable though


I'm not so sure... check out this link:

http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetvmain2&countrytogo=33



> *EyeTV 500*
> The first high-definition television (HDTV) solution for the Mac!
> 
> Receive HDTV & SDTV on the Mac via free over-the-air (ATSC) and digital cable (Clear QAM) television.


Wow. The EyeTV thing is looking pretty cool.


----------



## Fofer

If a channel requires a cable box, or you use a satellite receiver, the EyeTV won't work. Once their unit has serial or infared control of these required external boxes (or cablecard becomes a reality and EyeTV supports it) then maybe it will be a viable alternative to TiVo for me. Until then it's just a cool accessory to keep an eye on.



EDIT: typos fixed


----------



## iDriveX

The second one of these boxes does IR control...I'm gettin myself a little mac mini and an eyeTV....I may be waiting a while though  First time in my life I'm considering a PC (for this and a couple of other business reasons)


----------



## Fofer

iDriveX said:


> The second one of these boxes does IR control...I'm gettin myself a little mac mini and an eyeTV....I may be waiting a while though  First time in my life I'm considering a PC (for this and a couple of other business reasons)


The IR control included with the EyeTV 500 (HDTV) controls the EyeTV itself. It does not control an external box (like a cable box or satellite receiver) for channel changes.

http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetv500_faq


----------



## bedelman

Readers of this thread might want to fill out the form at the TiVo Suggestion Box


----------



## sad05

How many times can we fill it out? I'm up to four ...

heh heh heh


----------



## davezatz

sad05 said:


> How many times can we fill it out?


Probably as many times as they can ignore it...


----------



## Rbenavides

TRust me, I've been wrestling with TTG on my PC, and with all the codec problems (even their "recommended" codecs don't always work) and hanging problems, transferring problems, etc, it's so damn poorly programmed/supported that it is no where near a program that could at this point be ported over to the mac. 

Don't wish for something that you haven't seen yet.


----------



## Fofer

Rbenavides said:


> TRust me, I've been wrestling with TTG on my PC, and with all the codec problems (even their "recommended" codecs don't always work) and hanging problems, transferring problems, etc, it's so damn poorly programmed/supported that it is no where near a program that could at this point be ported over to the mac.
> 
> Don't wish for something that you haven't seen yet.


Sorta ironic that the unofficial hack for extracting video (which has been out fro a coupla years now) works ten times better than the officially sanctioned mechanism from TiVo. 

MPEG-2 video plays perfectly on the Mac as well, in QuickTime Player with the MPEG-2 plug-in.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Fofer said:


> Sorta ironic that the unofficial hack for extracting video (which has been out fro a coupla years now) works ten times better than the officially sanctioned mechanism from TiVo.
> 
> MPEG-2 video plays perfectly on the Mac as well, in QuickTime Player with the MPEG-2 plug-in.


yep, if Tivo dropped all DRM then it would be all gravy from there.  except when the content providers came a suing 

PS - essentially the hack turns off any encryption of shows - even on the TiVo and then just FTPs the mpegs off. If TiVo could keep the contant owners at bay while making that the official way it would sell a lot of boxes, so many that the content providers would jump all over TiVo in a convulsive knee jerk of fear and loathing.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Just curious- Isn't Quicktime a pipelined architecture of modules kind of like Directshow? Because Directshow dynamically mixes and matches modules from disparate vendors, it creates bugs in just about any video app. Is it possible for example in Quicktime for a demuxer to get paired with an incompatible audio decoder and video decoder so that out of sync conditions occur?

DRM or not, TTG files on windows platforms would still have significant problems with codecs as long as their code allows Directshow's dynamic matching of object handlers to occur.


----------



## rog

Justin Thyme said:


> Just curious- Isn't Quicktime a pipelined architecture of modules kind of like Directshow? Because Directshow dynamically mixes and matches modules from disparate vendors, it creates bugs in just about any video app. Is it possible for example in Quicktime for a demuxer to get paired with an incompatible audio decoder and video decoder so that out of sync conditions occur?
> 
> DRM or not, TTG files on windows platforms would still have significant problems with codecs as long as their code allows Directshow's dynamic matching of object handlers to occur.


Justin, don't quote me as I don't know the details, but I don't think QuickTime on OS X is quite the same.

Unfortunately, I know exactly what you mean about the codecs getting screwed up with Directshow under Windows 2000/XP. The GraphEdit tool often has to be used before you can see which filters/codecs/modules are loaded in the chain, and actually fixing things requires even more effort.

I've never had any problems with QuickTime. I don't think the user can really screw up the way the QuickTime engine processes each file; in other words, I believe QuickTime will automatically follow its correct chain of modules (from a limited set of trusted chains) depending on the file-type being played.

And more to the point, once you break the encryption on the TiVo, you have vanilla MPEG. This will play under QuickTime without ever worrying about codecs or "modules".

Granted, I keep a very clean system on my Mac (running Tiger 10.4.1), but this is a non-issue as far as I can tell.


----------



## MacBrian

rog said:


> And more to the point, once you break the encryption on the TiVo, you have vanilla MPEG. This will play under QuickTime without ever worrying about codecs or "modules".


It's been my experience that a GraphEdit-ed MPG from a .tivo file has no audio when transferred to a Mac and played in Quicktime Pro (6.5.2) (with the $25 MEPG plugin). Is this fixed with Tiger and the QT 7.x upgrade? My Tiger upgrade is still in the box...haven't taken time yet to do the upgrade to my Mac.

Unlike others, however, I've had ZERO problems transferring files to my XP PC, and I purchased Sonic's MyDVD to make "quick" work of creating a DVD. MyDVD is pretty much worthless when it comes to trying to edit out commercials, or even set chapter points, partly because I'm running it on a 700 MHz Celeron (Dell) with only 192 Mb of RAM. But everything I've tried so far works like clockwork, even if it's a very s-l-o-w clock. All my "real" computing is done on the Mac, so I really don't mind that it takes my PC overnight to transcode and create a .ISO file of a DVD. 

--Brian


----------



## MacBrian

ZeoTiVo said:


> yep, if Tivo dropped all DRM then it would be all gravy from there.  except when the content providers came a suing
> 
> PS - essentially the hack turns off any encryption of shows - even on the TiVo and then just FTPs the mpegs off. If TiVo could keep the contant owners at bay while making that the official way it would sell a lot of boxes, so many that the content providers would jump all over TiVo in a convulsive knee jerk of fear and loathing.


The DRM stuff really puzzles me. Just how does having DRM on a TiVo unit differ from using "BeyondTV" or "MythTV" or anything that Happupage produces in the "WIN-TV" line of video cards??? Why are the content providers so obsessed with what TiVo does?? All these computer-based PVR solutions record video from your entertainment source and lets you burn a DVD, and all at a comparable price point (minus the computer cost) as a Humax DVD/Tivo. TiVo seems to be the only one that encumbers recorded programs with DRM. How come? Why isn't the "industry" just as concerned about BeyondTV, Windows Media Center, Replay, or others??

I guess it's because TiVo is the "big name" in PVRs, so TiVo will take the first shots. But TiVo won't be the big name for long, especially given their lack of response to the Mac Tiger issues and no TTG support for Macs. And, of course, the plethora of alternatives showing up.

I'm REALLY regretting purchasing my Lifetime TiVo Series 2.5. It's sluggish and balky compared to my old Series 1 unit, which is an example of simplicity and reliability. The HMO between my Series 2.5 and my Mac will break as soon as I install Tiger, and then it'll be a PC-only world for my TiVo experiences. Ugh.

But I have a PC so it's less of a problem. However I'm thinking that "BeyondTV" would have been a MUCH wiser use of my entertainment-tech dollars. I'd have spent about the same as I did for the TiVo (much LESS if you count the Lifetime subscription I bought). BeyondTV would make really great use of an older PC collecting dust, and would have no subscription fees. Add a DVD drive to the PC and then I've got a solution far less complicated than TTG or HMO. Hmmmm...

(Gosh it's painful to say that, but Apple's lack of vision in the PVR genre and TiVo's lack of response really is making Windows the home theatre choice if you want to do much of anything. EYE-TV can't control my satellite receiver (yet), I don't think...haven't checked for a while.)

--Brian


----------



## davezatz

TivoBrian said:


> It's been my experience that a GraphEdit-ed MPG from a .tivo file has no audio when transferred to a Mac and played in Quicktime Pro (6.5.2) (with the $25 MEPG plugin).


Save your $25, use the free VLC (http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14738) and get audio.


----------



## AnteL0pe

TivoBrian said:


> It's been my experience that a GraphEdit-ed MPG from a .tivo file has no audio when transferred to a Mac and played in Quicktime Pro (6.5.2) (with the $25 MEPG plugin).


With the exact same setup I did not have the lost audio problems.


----------



## Bigg

I'll second VLC. It works great with my iBook and TTG video (run through graphedit on a PC). I don't have Tiger yet thhough.


----------



## tonyf3

Bigg said:


> I'll second VLC. It works great with my iBook and TTG video (run through graphedit on a PC). I don't have Tiger yet thhough.


So what's the equivalent of graphedit on Mac? That works..


----------



## rog

tonyf3 said:


> So what's the equivalent of graphedit on Mac? That works..


There is no equivalent.

If there were, we'd have a way to convert .TiVo files to a native Mac-compatible format.

GraphEdit on WinXP is basically just a window into the DirectShow system and its chains of plugins/codecs/modules.

Things are different with Apple's Quicktime, and in my experience, there is no need (much less the ability) to view what is going on in the "video chain", if you will.


----------



## MacBrian

AnteL0pe said:


> With the exact same setup I did not have the lost audio problems.


Wow! Really!? Must've been the codec I was using. I got good video but no audio in either Quicktime or VLC. Must be something in how I'm using GraphEdit...but I guess probably I shouldn't say any more about that in this forum.

But "oh well". The MyDVD software works fine (but sluggish) to get .tivo shows to DVD.

I don't really get why Sonic is the only "authorized" partner in this endeavor. Why not open it up to other software vendors?

--Brian


----------



## rog

TivoBrian said:


> The MyDVD software works fine (but sluggish) to get .tivo shows to DVD.


Nero works too, with a little prompting.



TivoBrian said:


> I don't really get why Sonic is the only "authorized" partner in this endeavor. Why not open it up to other software vendors?


I don't know either. I did see recently that there are new products from Roxio that officially support burning of .TiVo files. Of course, Roxio and Sonic are now the same company (one company purchased the other but I don't remember which is which)...

Apparently the options for PC users are expanding while the options for those who only own Macs are vanishing. Tiger doesn't even have basic HMO support, much less the ability to work with TiVoToGo. 

I'm not afraid to say that I'd love to see an open-sourced tool for opening up the .TiVo files. As far as I know, I still have the legal right to time-shift/space-shift this video in my own home... It's a shame that the burden is on TiVo (the company) to provide the DRM, but that's what the situation appears to be.


----------



## davezatz

tonyf3 said:


> So what's the equivalent of graphedit on Mac? That works..


It doesn't matter if there is an equivalent or not... like other Windows programs (Sonic MyDVD, Dr. DivX, Nero, ZoomPlayer, etc), GraphEdit relies on the PC-only Tivo-installed .dll to open the MPEG. Once it's open you can do a variety of things with GraphEdit including troubleshooting audio/video problems or outputing an unprotected MPEG.


----------



## ep_cat

I've been reading through the threads and found some good info from the members about using TiVo desktop on the Mac - specifically Tiger 10.4. I know this thread has taken a different turn, so I apologize if this post now seems inappropriate. But I have two questions that I couldn't find answers to: (1) Has anyone tried installing OS 9 (which comes on the 10.4 install disks) to run TiVo Desktop? (2) Has anyone tried running TiVo Desktop in a Windows emulator like Virtual PC? Thanks for any input.


----------



## bedelman

ep_cat said:


> I've been reading through the threads and found some good info from the members about using TiVo desktop on the Mac - specifically Tiger 10.4. I know this thread has taken a different turn, so I apologize if this post now seems inappropriate. But I have two questions that I couldn't find answers to: (1) Has anyone tried installing OS 9 (which comes on the 10.4 install disks) to run TiVo Desktop? (2) Has anyone tried running TiVo Desktop in a Windows emulator like Virtual PC? Thanks for any input.


TiVo Desktop for Mac OSX will not run under OS9 at all. It is a Mac OSX only package.

I've run TiVo Desktop for Windows using Virtual PC with Windows XP. It can be made to work, but it's not a useable option (performance is extremely poor even with good hardware partly because of the Virtual PC networking and video card support)


----------



## Justin Thyme

Bob- You mean Tivo Desktop 2.1 runs in VPC? 

What do you mean by bad performance? TTG transfers are pretty slow even when it is running on a fully tuned XP system- can you estimate the transfer rate?


----------



## Fofer

bedelman said:


> I've run TiVo Desktop for Windows using Virtual PC with Windows XP. It can be made to work, but it's not a useable option (performance is extremely poor even with good hardware partly because of the Virtual PC networking and video card support)


Ugh... and then wouldn't you need to have your photos and pics in the Windows environment? (or at least mapped there?)

Sounds like an awful lot of overhead and workaround for something that should Just Work.


----------



## ep_cat

Thanks, Bob. Didn't realize TiVo Desktop was for OSX only. My mistake.



Fofer said:


> Ugh... and then wouldn't you need to have your photos and pics in the Windows environment? (or at least mapped there?)
> 
> Sounds like an awful lot of overhead and workaround for something that should Just Work.


Yeah, you're right. But all my stuff is on a PC now anyway. My Mac is new. Eventually I'll ditch the PC altogether.


----------



## bedelman

Justin Thyme said:


> Bob- You mean Tivo Desktop 2.1 runs in VPC?
> 
> What do you mean by bad performance? TTG transfers are pretty slow even when it is running on a fully tuned XP system- can you estimate the transfer rate?


I don't know about 2.1, but I did have 2.0 running for a while

In regard to performance, I don't think the transfer rate was all that much worse (but I ended up using the https technique to pull the files over instead using a Mac browser and then dropping the .tivo files into place in the Windows directory where it expects them)

The real bottleneck is if you try to play anything with WMP.

I stopped the experiment when I unintentionally managed to completely hose the codec situation within Windows


----------



## tonyf3

Happy Memorial Day! Still waiting on TiVo togo for Mac: DAY 147 We're about to enter June. I'm sick of those useless happy go lucky Newsletters touting how great TTG is. Idiots!
I'm buying Eye TV.


----------



## Rbenavides

I purchased AlchemyTV because I don't believe TTG is coming to mac in a serviceable form anytime soon


----------



## ZeoTiVo

TivoBrian said:


> The DRM stuff really puzzles me. Just how does having DRM on a TiVo unit differ from using "BeyondTV" or "MythTV" or anything that Happupage produces in the "WIN-TV" line of video cards??? Why are the content providers so obsessed with what TiVo does?? All these computer-based PVR solutions record video from your entertainment source and lets you burn a DVD, and all at a comparable price point (minus the computer cost) as a Humax DVD/Tivo. TiVo seems to be the only one that encumbers recorded programs with DRM. How come? Why isn't the "industry" just as concerned about BeyondTV, Windows Media Center, Replay, or others??
> 
> --Brian


I think the content providers had a two prongred attack lined up. First they caught replayTV in the internet sharing and Commercial Advance features and really hurt the company to the point it is on its last leg and know one knows if it will survive or not. TiVo watched this and are making sure they do not end up in the same losing battle.

as for the PC TV cards, they tend to eventually be owned by the big companies and it would be harder to take them directly to court over simply recording content as they always have. They have a legitimate use of working in a PC to record content. Teh fact that the files made can be moved around at will is somehwat out of the manaufacturer's hands. It would be a harder case for the content providers to win. The content providers had thus taken a different route of getting the FCC to impose a broadcast flag for all digital broadcast that would allow the provider to set use terms such as "no copies made" or "recording only lasts for two days" etc.. It looked to be locked in and the providers looked to be ready to just ignore the analog broadcasts and PC recording devices.

Recently a court ruled that the FCC did not have the authority to pas rules such as requiring the PC card manufacturers to include broadcast flag tech in their products. It would have to be the legislature passing bills to grant them the specific authority to compose and enforce such rules. I have not heard what the content providers response to that is and now await the next move by them after their initial strategy was struck down. I assume they are over in Congress lobbying away.


----------



## Unix_Beard

At this point, I'd just like a clear answer on whether Mac support has been end-of-lifed at Tivo or not. Can someone from Tivo please comment? Your customers are entitled to that information.


----------



## Fofer

Seriously. I mean, if Tiger isn't officially supported by HMO yet, that's not saying much.

It took one guy (a customer of yours) a few hours to come out with a workaround... you couldn't do it "officially" within a few weeks?

Sad.


----------



## gfinelogo

If they won't get it right for mac at least let it work through mac in virtual pc!!!!!! 
How hard can this be?????? 
My only laptop is a G4 and I would love to take my tivo recordings with me on trips. 
I agree that tivo has completely abandoned the mac community!


----------



## rog

gfinelogo said:


> If they won't get it right for mac at least let it work through mac in virtual pc!!!!!!
> How hard can this be??????
> My only laptop is a G4 and I would love to take my tivo recordings with me on trips.
> I agree that tivo has completely abandoned the mac community!


To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing preventing you from using TiVoDesktop on a Mac with VirtualPC+WinXP installed.

However, _technically possible_ and _actually usable_ are two different things! Have you ever actually tried to use VirtualPC on a Mac? It sucks. It's excruciatingly slow, to the point of being unusable.

Trying to view video on a VirtualPC instance is nearly impossible. This isn't TiVo's fault, it's just the nature of trying to run ported Wintel code on a Mac.

You don't want a VirtualPC solution. You want native TiVoToGo support for Macs. Trust me.

_edit: P.S. This has been discussed many times on this and the other TTG/Mac thread. Use the search function if you want to read more..._


----------



## Unix_Beard

I've never tried VPC on a tricked out G5. I wonder if it'd be any better?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Unix_Beard said:


> I've never tried VPC on a tricked out G5. I wonder if it'd be any better?


In windows there is a HAL (Hardware Access Layer) that goes straight to hardware and provides performance via good drivers.

in VPC that HAL is taken out and replaced by a layer that gets to the Mac hardware , but it is the rigged part of VPC and so much translation is needed by the tricked out layer between a Mac and Windows way that it will never be performent for anything requiring memory and video card data dumping on the scale of video.

short answer - An increase in hardware does not equal the same increase in VPC performance.


----------



## bedelman

VPC 7 was supposed to include direct to video adapter support but it was dropped very close to the release date. It's hoped that it will come back in an update.


----------



## mscottsimon

ZeoTiVo said:


> In windows there is a HAL (Hardware Access Layer) that goes straight to hardware and provides performance via good drivers.
> 
> in VPC that HAL is taken out and replaced by a layer that gets to the Mac hardware , but it is the rigged part of VPC and so much translation is needed by the tricked out layer between a Mac and Windows way that it will never be performent for anything requiring memory and video card data dumping on the scale of video.
> 
> short answer - An increase in hardware does not equal the same increase in VPC performance.


HAL != "Hardware Access Layer". That's pretty funny. HAL means "Hardware Abstraction Layer" and provides exactly the opposite of what you described. The HAL is meant to abstract the hardware from the application and deliver a more generic API so a more standard set of calls can be used to drive the underlying hardware. The HAL is not removable.

Real performance comes in when a company writes a driver that drives through the HAL and writes directly to the hardware. Systems management on servers is performed by drivers that create these holes allowing the underlying hardware to be controlled specifically.

In VPC the HAL is not taken out -- it simply calls the virtual hardware presented by the VPC host app. The reason performance is lower on a Mac is the Windows guest HAL is calling the VPC host HAL which in turn is driving the hardware.

.scott


----------



## ZeoTiVo

mscottsimon said:


> HAL != "Hardware Access Layer". That's pretty funny. HAL means "Hardware Abstraction Layer" and provides exactly the opposite of what you described. The HAL is meant to abstract the hardware from the application and deliver a more generic API so a more standard set of calls can be used to drive the underlying hardware. The HAL is not removable.
> 
> Real performance comes in when a company writes a driver that drives through the HAL and writes directly to the hardware. Systems management on servers is performed by drivers that create these holes allowing the underlying hardware to be controlled specifically.
> 
> In VPC the HAL is not taken out -- it simply calls the virtual hardware presented by the VPC host app. The reason performance is lower on a Mac is the Windows guest HAL is calling the VPC host HAL which in turn is driving the hardware.
> 
> .scott


OK - that is eaxctly what I meant (just forgot the word abstraction) and yes it does provide the API from the hardware drivers to the Windows OS. My point still stands that when you add in the layer VPC needs to translate from the HAL to the Mac hardware performance is bottlenecked.

Bedelman pointed out what VPC is trying to do to fix that problem for Video but that they could not quite get there yet.


----------



## martinmcfly

Fofer said:


> MPEG-2 video plays perfectly on the Mac as well, in QuickTime Player with the MPEG-2 plug-in.


  I have QT 7 and the MPEG-2 plug-in, but QT won't play the tivo file. Just get an error message "not a file QT understands"?
What am I missing? 
Mac-Martin


----------



## Fofer

martinmcfly said:


> I have QT 7 and the MPEG-2 plug-in, but QT won't play the tivo file. Just get an error message "not a file QT understands"?
> What am I missing?
> Mac-Martin


What you're missing is the MPEG-2 file. The "tivo" file you're using has DRM wrapped around it, courtesy of TiVo's TTG mechanism.

To get at the file I'm talking about (whether it's the raw .ty file or converted MPEG-2) file, you'd need to hack your box and extract it differently.


----------



## rog

Fofer said:


> What you're missing is the MPEG-2 file. The "tivo" file you're using has DRM wrapped around it, courtesy of TiVo's TTG mechanism.
> 
> To get at the file I'm talking about (whether it's the raw .ty file or converted MPEG-2) file, you'd need to hack your box and extract it differently.


Or you could convert the .TiVo file into a normal MPEG file. This would require a Windows machine as an intermediary. And we aren't allowed to discuss specifics on this forum.

If you want you can send me a PM. I won't give you any direct links, but I can tell you what to Google for.


----------



## martinmcfly

Ok - now I understand. I'm a newbie here. Thanks for the heads-up.
PS: I have a PC, but media player 10 crashes while playing most transferred files.


----------



## martinmcfly

rog said:


> Or you could convert the .TiVo file into a normal MPEG file. This would require a Windows machine as an intermediary. And we aren't allowed to discuss specifics on this forum.
> 
> If you want you can send me a PM. I won't give you any direct links, but I can tell you what to Google for.


  I would be interested since I have a PC in the closet.
How do I send you a PM? (sorry I'm sort of green here)
Martin


----------



## rog

Reading through the entire article below, it appears that we _may_ be getting closer to decrypting .TiVo files (theoretically on any platform):

http://www.alt.org/wiki/index.php/TiVoToGo

ZeoTiVo said something similar in another Mac thread, but when Apple moves over to Intel, it would conceivably be easier to handle the DRM issues. As seen by the recent announcement re: TiVo on Centrino laptops, it appears the two companies are already working together to streamline some of the issues surrounding TiVoToGo.


----------



## AnteL0pe

rog said:


> but when Apple moves over to Intel, it would conceivably be easier to handle the DRM issues.


"When?!" I dont think Apple is going to move, it would require a rewrite of a huge chunk of the OS and a large part of any software.


----------



## AnteL0pe

AnteL0pe said:


> "When?!" I dont think Apple is going to move, it would require a rewrite of a huge chunk of the OS and a large part of any software.


DOH! I just read confirmation that this is almost certainly going to happen. My bad, thanks for the link rog


----------



## rog

Steve Jobs' keynote speech at WWDC 2005 is happening right now. From the updates here:

http://www.macrumorslive.com/web/

it appears that the Intel rumors are true. I say that because of the reference to Transitive. Transitive provides global emulators that would be capable of running existing PPC code on a new x86 Mac platform...


----------



## Unix_Beard

AnteL0pe said:


> "When?!" I dont think Apple is going to move, it would require a rewrite of a huge chunk of the OS and a large part of any software.


Jobs says OS X already runs on Intel and has run on each of the last 4-5 versions.


----------



## cwoody222

martinmcfly said:


> I would be interested since I have a PC in the closet.
> How do I send you a PM? (sorry I'm sort of green here)
> Martin


Click on the poster's name over on the left, next to their picture (if they have one).

Click "send private message to..."


----------



## schalliol

So let me get this straight, TiVo is now offering TiVoToGo for Microsoft PDAs and Cell Phones, but we still don't have it for our Macs....

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=581&e=1&u=/nm/20050608/tc_nm/tivo_dc


----------



## jimmymac

schalliol said:


> So let me get this straight, TiVo is now offering TiVoToGo for Microsoft PDAs and Cell Phones, but we still don't have it for our Macs....
> 
> 
> 
> Because everybody wants to watch movies on a cell phone.
Click to expand...


----------



## cwoody222

*sigh* 

Is this even 'news'? Is this really new functionality or just a random press release to talk about something that's been out for awhile?

I see TiVo did a minor redesign of their homepage too - perhaps this is just a summer ad campaign, not really a 'new' feature.

But either way, it sucks that we STILL don't have Mac support or even any further comment since JANUARY!


----------



## Morris Herman

cwoody222 said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Is this even 'news'? Is this really new functionality or just a random press release to talk about something that's been out for awhile?
> 
> I see TiVo did a minor redesign of their homepage too - perhaps this is just a summer ad campaign, not really a 'new' feature.
> 
> But either way, it sucks that we STILL don't have Mac support or even any further comment since JANUARY!


I am really angry now. They have TTG for the PDAs and cellphones but not the Mac. What idiots.

They deserve to lose all of the Mac users' business. I will not buy any Tivo products and will bend over backward to get their competitors' products.

Unbelievable!!! No wonder this company is on the edge of viability. They make lousy business decisions.


----------



## hassanpr

oh i see now thats why they didn't come out with a mac version of Tivotogo its all clear now microsoft is behind it all. I kind of knew it all along.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Caution TinFoil hat area


TiVo on the edge of profitability not viability - rather a difference I think. And while I agree they should continue Mac support - I am sure they know how many Mac users they can lose and still keep their bottom line where they want it. I am not seeing the tens of thousands of mac users dropping TiVo that the tinfoil hat seems to permit clear vision on.

and of course the Microsoft conspiracy that started this thread off. How crazy would that be for Microsoft to make Mac users move away from TiVo and clamor for an Apple DVR solution. It would be in Microsofts interest to keep Mac users loyal to TiVo and buy Microsoft PDA's etc..


----------



## Fofer

The silliest part is TiVo Desktop support for Tiger. It took a user here a few hours to hack in support.

The fact that TiVo, Inc. can't offer an "official" update in a month... now that shows you the real story right there.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Fofer said:


> It took a user here a few hours to hack in support.


That would be me -- and the key word in that sentence is "hack." That's very different from "fix." Fixing the actual problems in the actual source, then testing them against something like 3 major OS releases, a few versions of iTunes, and 4 versions of iPhoto could take a bit longer than a few hours.

Just a pet peeve of mine -- I don't appreciate it when someone tells me how long something should take to fix/implement in my code when they've never seen it, know my organizations process requirements, et cetera, so I try to pay others the courtesy of not doing that myself.


----------



## cwoody222

TiVo could at least post instructions of how users can fix it themselves. Or post a notice saying they're aware of the problem, apologize, and give a rough timeline of when it will be fixed.

Better yet - TiVo should at least offer Tiger users a beta, no warranties implied. Then, a few months later, issue a full-fledged release.

The fact that they've spent Jan - Jun giving Windows users more and more and more and giving Mac users less and less (since Tiger actually made the situation worse) is - to say the least - not encouraging.


----------



## Fofer

I'm sorry, Dennis, I meant no disrespect to you nor the process. I hold you and your contributions to this forum in the highest regard! And I willfully admit that I don't know enough to make a sweeping generalization like that. For that, I apologize.


That said, as a Mac user, I'm just starting to feel that the lack of updates (publicity or software-wise) from TiVo are a sign of neglect. "Not compatible with Tiger" doesn't tell me enough. Are they working on it? Is there a timeline? All I'm asking for is communication, really.

See, I'm purposefully not updating my only G5 to Tiger as I wait for TiVo's official fix for TiVo Desktop. That precludes me from hosting a 3-way video iChat session with my family, which is why I bought Tiger in the first place. Now if 3 months pass and I still haven't updated, and TiVo hasn't released an update, well then I've wasted time. If they have no intention on updating TiVo Desktop, just let me know so I can plan accordingly. Right now I just feel like I'm waiting for something that might never arrive.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Don't get me wrong -- I'm frustrated by the whole issue as well. I can understand the lack of communication -- after all, I've worked for companies where for quite a long time it was policy to never, ever discuss or even admit the existence of upcoming releases, for a variety of reasons. That doesn't make it any more pleasant to be a customer of one, though.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Fofer said:


> That said, as a Mac user, I'm just starting to feel that the lack of updates (publicity or software-wise) from TiVo are a sign of neglect. "Not compatible with Tiger" doesn't tell me enough. Are they working on it? Is there a timeline? All I'm asking for is communication, really.


this however is the actual problem that TiVo could communicate on


----------



## Fofer

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Fixing the actual problems in the actual source, then testing them against something like 3 major OS releases, a few versions of iTunes, and 4 versions of iPhoto could take a bit longer than a few hours.


Indeed. I'm just forced to wonder, really, if TiVo was even interested enough to plan ahead?

Apple has a Developer's program for a reason, and TiVo could have had access to prereleases of Tiger for many, many months prior to April 29th.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Fofer said:


> Apple has a Developer's program for a reason, and TiVo could have had access to prereleases of Tiger for many, many months prior to April 29th.


True.

And when in the beta did they break? Had they tested with a late seed and worked, then had the rug pulled out from under them? That's happened to me.

It's all speculation, really. The only thing we have to go on is that when Tiger shipped, TiVoDesktop didn't work. I'm not going to play armchair engineer based on that alone.


----------



## dropd

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> True.
> 
> And when in the beta did they break? Had they tested with a late seed and worked, then had the rug pulled out from under them? That's happened to me.
> 
> It's all speculation, really. The only thing we have to go on is that when Tiger shipped, TiVoDesktop didn't work. I'm not going to play armchair engineer based on that alone.


What's really odd is that the last actual maintenance release of TiVo Desktop was in February 2005, just barely over 2 months before Tiger's release. So mac users had every reason to believe at that time that TiVo was at least going to continue to support the existing Desktop features, regardless of what was going to happen with T2G.


----------



## Fofer

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> True.
> 
> And when in the beta did they break? Had they tested with a late seed and worked, then had the rug pulled out from under them? That's happened to me.
> 
> It's all speculation, really. The only thing we have to go on is that when Tiger shipped, TiVoDesktop didn't work. I'm not going to play armchair engineer based on that alone.


I'd read in another thread that it worked with the earliest developer previews, and broke a couple of months later. IOW, there was plenty of lead time. At what point can we concede we're being neglected?

At this point I'm wondering if TiVo tested at all against *any* build of Tiger. Is it possible that they first learned of the incompatibility from a customer, on April 29th?


----------



## bedelman

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> And when in the beta did they break? Had they tested with a late seed and worked, then had the rug pulled out from under them? That's happened to me.


If I recall correctly, TiVo Desktop for Mac OSX stopped working somewhere around the Tiger beta release of September last year. TiVo Desktop did work with the earlier releases.


----------



## mdscott

bedelman said:


> If I recall correctly, TiVo Desktop for Mac OSX stopped working somewhere around the Tiger beta release of September last year. TiVo Desktop did work with the earlier releases.


And it could have been frustrating to someone under NDA to Apple having seen that and not being able to pass the information on to TiVo.

mds


----------



## dropd

Fofer said:


> At this point I'm wondering if TiVo tested at all against *any* build of Tiger. Is it possible that they first learned of the incompatibility from a customer, on April 29th?


I believe your supposition is actually correct, from what I have been told.


----------



## Fofer

dropd said:


> I believe your supposition is actually correct, from what I have been told.


Well if that's the case, I think we can safely extract that TiVo-to-Go Mac support ain't exactly around the corner.

No folks, we're being lied to.

Personally I don't think TiVo has any in-house (or contracted) Mac development going on right now *at all.*


----------



## gonzotek

Fofer said:


> Well if that's the case, I think we can safely extract that TiVo-to-Go Mac support ain't exactly around the corner.
> 
> No folks, we're being lied to.


I'm sorry, but where's the lie? TiVo's only statement towards Mac development is that they are working hard on Macintosh support, but that there is no timeline for a release. How any person could extract anything OTHER than that support is clearly not just around the corner is beyond my understanding. If it were, there'd be a timeline.



> Personally I don't think TiVo has any in-house (or contracted) Mac development going on right now *at all.*


On this, I'm inclined to agree with you.


----------



## cwoody222

Well, if they don't have any in-house or contracted Mac development going on right now then that really doesn't mean they're "working hard on Mac support" does it?

Sadly, I 100% agree with Fofer.

I don't think TiVo has a single solitary employee or contracted employee spending a single moment on Mac development. They're written us off complete and they're content with letter HME and 'hackers' like Dennis pick up their slack.

If not, they would have spoken up by now.

It's really, really sad that TiVo's turned around like this.


----------



## LeeG

Sorry I haven't read this whole massive thread, but has anyone noticed this? Go to:

http://www.tivo.com/5.6.asp

and and click on the PDF link under 'events'

or just goto:

http://a423.g.akamai.net/7/423/1788...om/pdfs/TiVo_Q2_06_Corporate Presentation.pdf

for the pdf.

Look at page 10 regarding tivo to go- THAT'S a POWERBOOK!!! I don't think this has anything at all to do with mac support - I am inclined to believe it will never happen. Just poor attention to detail for whoever made that talk-

Lee


----------



## Fofer

gonzotek said:


> I'm sorry, but where's the lie? TiVo's only statement towards Mac development is that they are working hard on Macintosh support, but that there is no timeline for a release. How any person could extract anything OTHER than that support is clearly not just around the corner is beyond my understanding. If it were, there'd be a timeline.


When I say "lie" I don't mean about Mac TTG support being around the corner. The fact that it's a long way off is obvious, and I haven't ever gleaned otherwise from TiVo's vague statements.

I'm meaning, about Mac support, at all. (IE: in general.) That TiVo values Mac customers nowadays and includes us on their list of priorities.

Fact is, they don't.


----------



## davezatz

cwoody222 said:


> Well, if they don't have any in-house or contracted Mac development going on right now then that really doesn't mean they're "working hard on Mac support" does it?


Maybe they're _thinking_ hard? Given how quick Dennis figured out what was going on and given how long dev copies of Tiger had been floating around and we still don't have updated desktop software or a target, I'm also doubting that Tivo has any dedicated Mac staff. And based on current job openings, Mac dev is a skill or subset rather than an emphasis. It's a bitter pill...

It reminds me of my buddy in NJ. Was dating this girl a year, she doesn't want to date anymore but she says she wants to be friends. So he sends her an chit-chatty email here or there and leaves a chit-chatty voice mail here or there over a period of a month or so (including hey can I get my crap back?)... with absolutely no response. She just doesn't have the cajones to say what she really means: I don't want to speak to you anymore. Either that, or by not committing to the finality of it all, she leaves herself an opening to change her mind later - assuming she hasn't alienatated him so badly.

Frankly, that's what it seems Tivo is doing. By saying nothing, there's still a glimmer of hope for customers and they can hedge their bets until they have the staff and/or desire to make something happen in the Mac world. Meanwhile, they're alienatating their Mac lovers (a minority percentage of the harem) but shareholders are OK because Tivo hasn't closed the door entirely and hasn't generated widespread bad press.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

cwoody222 said:


> Well, if they don't have any in-house or contracted Mac development going on right now then that really doesn't mean they're "working hard on Mac support" does it?


the last working hard on it I recall was from TiVoPony when relaying the CFO "clarification" and that was just a canned message specific to TTG. No one at TiVo has said they are working hard on Tiger support. The only other place I see the phrase "working hard" stated is in the faq that simply has not been updated and should be. The only part of the message TiVo is really sticking too is "there is no timeline" I have to concur with gonzotek that there is no deliberate lies from TiVo on this.



> Sadly, I 100% agree with Fofer.
> 
> I don't think TiVo has a single solitary employee or contracted employee spending a single moment on Mac development. They're written us off complete and they're content with letter HME and 'hackers' like Dennis pick up their slack.
> 
> If not, they would have spoken up by now.
> 
> It's really, really sad that TiVo's turned around like this.


I think the working hard on it part that TiVo was saying about TTG, taken along with the statement from the CFO "it is too expensive, do not look for it for a couple of years" was working with Intel on getting the tivo en/decryption out of the OS altogether. (my speculation of course) Most likely TiVo found that any MAc OS way to do the decryption resulted in TiVo writing a full player and DVD transcoder themselves which would indeed be too expensive. so they worked hard on alternatives and seem to be looking far forward to a better method altogether for any OS.

of course this means that I agree with the idea that TiVo has no in house mac developers, that it is not a primary skillset being sought by TiVo and that they got caught hard on the Tiger release and the money or resources to fix it is not getting far up the priority list at TiVo.

So I agree it seems a turning point at TiVo in regards to Mac support and the bottom line of expenses/investments/revenue/shareholders


----------



## rog

Zeo, you've given us a bunch of excuses. Maybe they are accurate, maybe they're not.

The point is, if they'd just step up and tell us that they're no longer working on Mac support, instead of giving us these vague canned responses and FAQ entries, then we could end this. Instead, they've left us hanging, with little or no accurate info on the matter. There is NO EXCUSE for that.


----------



## cwoody222

TiVoPony stated:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2777478&highlight=macintosh#post2777478
"We value Mac enthusiasts who own TiVo DVR's. And as we've previously stated, we're working towards support that would bring TiVoToGo to the Macintosh platform.

We have not yet announced a timeline as to when that service may be available though."

Their FAQ states:
http://www.tivo.com/4.9.19.3.asp#4
"Are TiVoToGo transfers available for Apple Macintosh computers?
At this time TiVoToGo transfers are not available for Apple Macintosh computers. TiVo is working hard to enable TiVoToGo features available on TiVo Desktop for Mac. We are currently working on ways to enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers. We will let our customers know in our newsletter as soon as this feature is available. If you do not already subscribe to the newsletter, you can go here to do so. "

If they do not - in fact - have people ACTIVELY WORKING on Mac support RIGHT NOW (which I believe they do not) then how is any of that NOT a flat-out, bold-faced lie?!


----------



## gonzotek

cwoody222 said:


> TiVoPony stated:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2777478&highlight=macintosh#post2777478
> "We value Mac enthusiasts who own TiVo DVR's. And as we've previously stated, we're working towards support that would bring TiVoToGo to the Macintosh platform.
> 
> We have not yet announced a timeline as to when that service may be available though."
> 
> Their FAQ states:
> http://www.tivo.com/4.9.19.3.asp#4
> "Are TiVoToGo transfers available for Apple Macintosh computers?
> At this time TiVoToGo transfers are not available for Apple Macintosh computers. TiVo is working hard to enable TiVoToGo features available on TiVo Desktop for Mac. We are currently working on ways to enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers. We will let our customers know in our newsletter as soon as this feature is available. If you do not already subscribe to the newsletter, you can go here to do so. "
> 
> If they do not - in fact - have people ACTIVELY WORKING on Mac support RIGHT NOW (which I believe they do not) then how is any of that NOT a flat-out, bold-faced lie?!


That's an easy one to answer: Personnel may be working hard to find the right engineer(s) for the job.

Point of fact that I think we can all agree upon is that TiVo needs to communicate *much better than it has so far* what their intentions towards Mac support are. I don't know about anyone else, but perhaps it's time to start some community-organized program to let TiVo know how many people feel strongly about it's current strategies. Something more than a poll or petition, but along those lines.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

> Originally Posted by CrispyCritter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect this is very close to what TiVo is doing. The files are currently coming off TiVo encrypted, and being decoded by the DirectShow filter supplied by TiVo on the Windows machine. Evidently there isn't a place in the current (or future) Apple OS for such a filter/low-level plug-in.
> 
> To be a true plug-in, TiVo would have to write a media player(s) themselves that could run under both Windows and MacOS. That's harder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TiVoPony said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very apt observation.
> 
> Pony
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

you need to think about the post immediately following the one about working hard on it. It clearly explained the trouble TiVo has with Mac OS and why some other path would have to be found. The Intel path makes a lot of sense and there would be a lot of hard work involved in that just not work by Mac developers until the tail end when the simple glue code to access whatever the intel chip provides. Does this suck for Mac users, most definitely as it is years out and requires new Mac hardware. Let us not forget that this is the path Apple is going down and has picked out all on its own.

These are not excuses for TiVo but just me giving a perspective from someone not upset directly about all of this since I do not use Macs. It is easy to forget the whole picture and simply say TiVo has lied and they need to tell us what is going on. AND Intel needs to tell us what chips they are putting out and when for the next two years so we can figure out what Apple will start using adn I can buy a PC at just the right time. Hmm but maybe that helps the competiton.
TiVo has a lot of competition out there.


----------



## tonyf3

LeeG said:


> Sorry I haven't read this whole massive thread, but has anyone noticed this? Go to:
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/5.6.asp
> 
> and and click on the PDF link under 'events'
> 
> or just goto:
> 
> http://a423.g.akamai.net/7/423/1788...om/pdfs/TiVo_Q2_06_Corporate Presentation.pdf
> 
> for the pdf.
> 
> Look at page 10 regarding tivo to go- THAT'S a POWERBOOK!!! I don't think this has anything at all to do with mac support - I am inclined to believe it will never happen. Just poor attention to detail for whoever made that talk-
> 
> Lee


The unmitigated Gall! To show an Apple Powerbook on the TiVo Togo page of David Courtney's presentation. The insensitivity of this shows me that they're just don't get it, and or they just don't care. Way togo on alienating your user base David!


----------



## bluebaron

I've given up and will be cancelling my subscription next week.

EyeTV seems to have everything I need including HD recording and streaming to my TV. Also Titan TV is free.


----------



## ghouse

I called TiVo today to ask about this - 1-877-GET-TiVo extension 3. I asked if TiVo togo works on the Mac, he said no. 
- Will it ever work on the Mac? "they're working hard on it" 
- Do you have any idea when it might be available? "About a year from now" 
- Haven't they already been working on it a year? "No, TiVo togo just came out in February. They have been working on it since then"
- Wow. "There was a press release several months ago announcing this."
- Really? Do you know where I can find it? "TiVo is a public company and is required to announce this sort of thing."

Well, huh. And I just spent 299 yesterday on a lifetime subscription for a friend. Well, that sucks.


----------



## davezatz

Just an FYI those $30 - $50 ElGato EyeTV rebates expire 6/30. The rebate PDFs are linked to the front of ElGato's web page. They apply regardless of vendor, and places like eCost have slightly better prices.


----------



## cwoody222

Rule #1: customer service reps don't know jack. Especially about the rules relating to publically held companies or features that are "about a year" away.

Rule #2: see rule #1


----------



## Fofer

Seriously. That CSR probably knows less about Mac TiVo to Go then I do.


----------



## bluebaron

Well Eyehome has arrived and works perfectly. I'm working in the US for a few years, but from the UK. Got an EyeTV 410 over there recording my Brit TV shows, encoding them to MP4 and then sending them to my mac over here.

All play back perfectly over my wireless network from my Imac G5. Will now order the Eye HD receiver to do the same with stuff I want to record in the US and then will cancel Tivo.

This thing is great.....shame Tivo couldn't manage it.


----------



## chessplayer

bluebaron said:


> Well Eyehome has arrived and works perfectly. I'm working in the US for a few years, but from the UK. Got an EyeTV 410 over there recording my Brit TV shows, encoding them to MP4 and then sending them to my mac over here.
> 
> All play back perfectly over my wireless network from my Imac G5. Will now order the Eye HD receiver to do the same with stuff I want to record in the US and then will cancel Tivo.
> 
> This thing is great.....shame Tivo couldn't manage it.


 EyeHome is the reverse of TiVoToGo though, right? Watching stuff that's on your Mac on your TV? How well does it work with various file formats? My only concern with getting one before was whether it was extremely picky about which avi files it will play etc.

Still, an Eyehome and EyeTV in tandem sounds like a great combination. At least el gato is genuinely supporting the Mac, instead of pretending that they care about Mac users like TiVo.

On another note, I can confirm that some TiVo CSRs are still claiming that TTG for the Mac is coming "very soon".  Shouldn't they be instructed not to say things like that, when it's becoming increasingly obvious that TiVo does not intend to release TTG for the Mac any time soon, if ever? How about being a little more forthright, instead of all the content-free, vague declarations?


----------



## tonyf3

Originally Posted by Chessplayer:
"At least el gato is genuinely supporting the Mac, instead of pretending that they care about Mac users like TiVo"

Well said Chessplayer. TiVo's credibility with me as a customer and Mac user is "0"
I'm waiting to see if Apple actually does their own PVR. If not, it's looking more like I'll be turning my old G4 tower into a media server for Elgato Eyehome. I think you can ebay old tivo's, right?


----------



## tonyf3

Month 7. Hope they're still working hard on TiVo togo for Mac......I doubt it. Happy 4th.


----------



## wupher

After reading this rather long thread, alright, skimming this rather long thread, The most obvious question that occurs to me is: are there any Tivo staff participating in this forum that can give us some real info about the progress of TivoToGo for the Mac?

I may be asking an idiotic question, so please pardon my inexperience, but in most other forums that are product related, usually particpants from the company that makes the product are present and usually quite active. Is that not the case here?

Thanks,

-wupher


----------



## SavMan

wupher said:


> After reading this rather long thread, alright, skimming this rather long thread, The most obvious question that occurs to me is: are there any Tivo staff participating in this forum that can give us some real info about the progress of TivoToGo for the Mac?
> 
> I may be asking an idiotic question, so please pardon my inexperience, but in most other forums that are product related, usually particpants from the company that makes the product are present and usually quite active. Is that not the case here?


The long and short of it is, they have no update. The TiVo employees here are either in the dark as to what is happening with Mac support, or they are towing the company line which is, "make no comment, stall a lot, and we'll see how much money we can squeeze out of the Mac users before they leave in disgust." TiVo's CFO has already noted that T2G for Mac is not being worked on because it's too expensive, a comment which TiVo has never been able to defend, other than TiVoPony claiming his DIRECT QUOTE was taken out of context.

Do yourself a favor and switch over to the cableco box. More space, extraordinarily cheaper, no repeated digital-to-analog conversions, no IR blasters, OnDemand, PPV, dual-tuners, fully unencrypted and DRM'd firewire interface for recording straight to your Mac, etc. I've got one more month on my lease in my apartment (with integrated cable) and then I'm moving someplace else and getting a Comcast box.

An added value: if Apple ever gets off their ass and makes a killer DVR, I don't have a hunk of useless hardware on my hand (remember that TiVo breaks your Series2 if you don't pay the subscription fee), I'll just tell the cableco to take it away.


----------



## southerndoc

I'm surprised Apple hasn't jumped on the DVR bandwagon. The Mac Mini would make the PERFECT home theatre Mac!

All the multimedia stuff is already on there (iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, etc.), with exception to a DVR.

I wonder if Steve is planning anything in Cupertino?


----------



## rog

geekmedic said:


> I'm surprised Apple hasn't jumped on the DVR bandwagon. The Mac Mini would make the PERFECT home theatre Mac!
> 
> All the multimedia stuff is already on there (iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, etc.), with exception to a DVR.
> 
> I wonder if Steve is planning anything in Cupertino?


He probably is... here's the old Cringely article:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20050120.html

In short, there's been no shortage of speculation on this topic. It makes sense for Apple to start thinking about digital movie distribution as the growth of iTunes/iPod continues to expand.


----------



## porovaara

Still no news? 

Good game TiVo.


----------



## rog

geekmedic said:


> I'm surprised Apple hasn't jumped on the DVR bandwagon. The Mac Mini would make the PERFECT home theatre Mac!
> 
> All the multimedia stuff is already on there (iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, etc.), with exception to a DVR.
> 
> I wonder if Steve is planning anything in Cupertino?


And here's another excellent article:

http://arstechnica.com/columns/mac/mac-20050710.ars

Perhaps there is a video iPod on the way before Christmas!


----------



## davezatz

rog said:


> Perhaps there is a video iPod on the way before Christmas!


Like the CableCard HiDef Tivo, I'll believe it when I see it...


----------



## tchwojko

> I'll believe it when I see it...


Yeah, I'm sure they're "working hard on it."


----------



## rog

Personally, I _hate_ iPods. When I see a 90 year old grandma pimpin' an iPod Shuffle, or a street kid asking me for money for a bite to eat with white earbuds coming out of his tattered clothes... I just cringe. We're living the iLife and it's driving me crazy.

The executive secretaries around here have gotten into the iPod craze now. That really makes me think these things are cool.


----------



## tchwojko

rog said:


> Personally, I _hate_ iPods. When I see a 90 year old grandma pimpin' an iPod Shuffle, or a street kid asking me for money for a bite to eat with white earbuds coming out of his tattered clothes... I just cringe. We're living the iLife and it's driving me crazy.
> 
> The executive secretaries around here have gotten into the iPod craze now. That really makes me think these things are cool.


That shows you hate the iPod *image*. What do you dislike about the device itself?


----------



## rog

tchwojko said:


> That shows you hate the iPod *image*. What do you dislike about the device itself?


Yep, you're right. I don't really dislike anything about the device itself... just the fad/image/craze.

Excuse my rant. Sometimes it's best to just ignore me.


----------



## davezatz

rog said:


> I don't really dislike anything about the device itself... just the fad/image/craze.


Isn't it ironic that Apple used to be counter-culture, a niche market really... but now they're so mainstream folks are rebelling. Think Different indeed.  Personally, I'm lusting after the iRiver H10 6GB model though I don't know what I need it for.


----------



## jasonsewell

I'm a Macintosh user. I gave up waiting for Tivo to introduce TivoToGo for the Mac, so I bought an old PC and put Windows XP on it. I installed TiVo Desktop 2.1 and purchased and installed Sonic Cinemaster Codec as per Tivo's recommendation.

I downloaded a few episodes of my favorite shows, and attempted to play them on the PC. They looked great except that they were UPSIDE-DOWN AND BACKWARDS!.

Tivo's tech support suggested that it's a codec or a OS problem and wasn't able to help, so I asked them to cancel my service. The phone rep offered me two free months, but I declined. I made sure to indicate I was canceling my subscription because of a lack of Macintosh support.

He put me on hold for a couple of minutes and came back with a pretty sweet counter-offer. He offered to reduce my monthly subscription fee from $12 per month to $6 per month in perpetuity. So I gave in. For a $72 per year savings, I'll put some more effort into solving the upside-down and backwards problem, and resign myself to using XP for TivoToGo.


----------



## Fofer

Wow.

That's just truly pathetic.

TiVo, we hardly knew ye.


----------



## Weaselboy

Update Tiger to 10.4.2 and Tivo Desktop 1.9.1 works.

See here.


----------



## tonyf3

Weaselboy said:


> Update Tiger to 10.4.2 and Tivo Desktop 1.9.1 works.
> 
> See here.


That's great. I haven't upgraded to Tiger because a vender we use (Pinnacle Systems) Hasn't updated there app to support Quicktime 7.0.1 for Windows yet. But it's nice to hear some functionality has been restored.

Some stuff I've come across on the web suggests that an iPod Video device is in the works. Either with an AV doc, or with H264 codec support 802.11g transfers. To what? I wonder. Maybe a modified Mac Mini PVR. Conjecture?...for sure. At this rate we're more likely to see something like this from Apple before we have full Mac support from TiVo. Just wishful thinking from a paying TiVo subscriber who's very tired of waiting.


----------



## MerlinMacuser

If you have Tiger (10.4.x), you have access to a whole bunch of cool little applications called widgets. There is one that lets you view your networked Tivo's Now Playing menu...no functionality, yet but it is very cool to see.


----------



## rog

MerlinMacuser said:


> If you have Tiger (10.4.x), you have access to a whole bunch of cool little applications called widgets. There is one that lets you view your networked Tivo's Now Playing menu...no functionality, yet but it is very cool to see.


I never could get that widget to work for me. Even though I coaxed TiVoDesktop 1.9 into working on the first versions of Tiger (10.4.0 and 10.4.1), not to mention Galleon, I never could get the freakin' widget to work.

I suspect it's because I have a huge (300 GB) drive in the TiVo and a large number of recorded shows. It may have a problem parsing all that data.


----------



## funkdaddy

rog said:


> I never could get that widget to work for me. Even though I coaxed TiVoDesktop 1.9 into working on the first versions of Tiger (10.4.0 and 10.4.1), not to mention Galleon, I never could get the freakin' widget to work.
> 
> I suspect it's because I have a huge (300 GB) drive in the TiVo and a large number of recorded shows. It may have a problem parsing all that data.


If you're talking about this the NowPlaying widget at DashboardDev, I'm the widget's developer, if you can send me the details of your problem I can take a look. I've been able to show 75 or so shows fine, how many do you have on the 300hr monster? And the screen can only show so many....


----------



## gonzotek

Morac has documented the general problem and method to safely retrieve large lists here:
A warning for programmers who retrieve the TiVo's XML file


----------



## funkdaddy

gonzotek said:


> Morac has documented the general problem and method to safely retrieve large lists here: A warning for programmers who retrieve the TiVo's XML file


Well currently my widget will overflow most screens with anything over 50, I really designed it to show the latest stuff on there, I even say in the prefs to not exceed 100 items, so I don't think that's it. My Tivo was flaky for acouple days until an update as the xml file and web interface was unavailable.


----------



## rog

funkdaddy said:


> If you're talking about this the NowPlaying widget at DashboardDev, I'm the widget's developer, if you can send me the details of your problem I can take a look. I've been able to show 75 or so shows fine, how many do you have on the 300hr monster? And the screen can only show so many....


Cool, thanks for popping in!

Here's a screenshot of my widget's error message:










Notice how freakin' hot it is in Portland today! 

I get this error after the widget displays "Retrieving your TiVo's XML File" for almost exactly 30 seconds.

To answer your question, I have 189 shows.

I do realize that there is an option in your widget for the number of shows to display at once. I have that on 25.

I've checked, double-checked and then checked again on my MAK. It's correct. I even used the "Get MAK from tivo.com" link in the widget's options -- it's the same MAK that my TiVo displays (and the same one Galleon uses), so I think the problem lies elsewhere.

Thanks again for the help.


----------



## funkdaddy

That's an old version... try downloading 1.1 from dashboarddev d o t com. I'd post a link, but for some reason I can't on this board yet. Try the newer version and let me know if it works. If not email me at jazzflute a t gmail d o t com and I'll help you through it.

Can you get to you TiVo's web pages or XML files?


----------



## rog

funkdaddy said:


> That's an old version... try downloading 1.1 from dashboarddev d o t com.


I will do so shortly. Ironically I'm on a PC now. Curses!



funkdaddy said:


> I'd post a link, but for some reason I can't on this board yet.


Only two more posts my friend. Welcome aboard, by the way. :up:



funkdaddy said:


> Try the newer version and let me know if it works. If not email me at jazzflute a t gmail d o t com and I'll help you through it.
> 
> Can you get to you TiVo's web pages or XML files?


When I *was* on the mac I tried the web interface via Safari (http://192.168.x.x), and also retrieved a copy of the XML data via the "Better Now Playing List" xhtml interface for Firefox... so I've covered those bases already. It all works fine.

I'll definitely try the latest version of the widget, and will email any other details.

Looks like a great widget, so I look forward to getting it working.


----------



## rog

Ok, first off: http://www.dashboardwidgets.com/ rocks. I had no idea about this site.

You can go straight here for the actual download section (I found the site a bit weird to navigate at first):

http://www.dashboardwidgets.com/showcase/

More to the point: the newer version (1.1) of the Now Playing widget works great! It is really, really slick. Seriously; this is one of the best 3rd party widgets I've seen in terms of polish.

Thanks!


----------



## funkdaddy

Nice. Glad it worked, I'm still working on some more features, like being able to roll up the panel to leave room for other widgets and version checking. Once my wrists stop hurting (rss), I'll be able to put some more time into it!


----------



## cinthia

Duvs said:


> Let me know how it works out with the cable company box when you try to:
> 
> a) Play music or view photos on it that are stored on your Mac
> 
> NONSENSE
> Eye TV has a simple product that does everything TIVO does, works with cable, sends music and photos, bla bla bla...
> 
> b) Get any kind of recorded content off of it
> WE CAN"T DO THAT NOW WITH TIVO!!!!
> 
> I know it's been said a million times but Mac's are about 4% of the computing world, since TiVo is a multimedia company it's possible their user base is more like 10 maybe even 15% Mac.


This is clearly something that could be taken care of easily.
PC users undoubtedly are the masses but fact is, more self employed & entrepreneurs use Mac. including 99% of the music, television and movie industry - writers, producers, editers... Tivo owes most of it's existence to the independently creative people who provide the content for their programs. They need to wake up and realize they are literally biting the hand that feeds them.

There was a time when Tivo was IT - but no more. There are so many devices that do the same thing now. The only hope they have is to rely on loyalty. And irritating or not, Mac users are LOYAL. Like the former poster, I also own 5 Tivo2s, have given no less than 10 as wedding & graduation gifts since they came out. No more. 
I'm tired of searching these posts to figure out how to access the content by IP. I'm sick of the PC laptop I purchased JUST so I could run Tivo2 - (and if any of you guys are thinking that would be a great solution - it isn't! WindowsXP is still a wannabe Mac system that sucks - not to mention the VIRUS problem)

For me, I'm done waiting. If Tivo had any intention of doing the right thing, they'd have done it by now. I yanked the Tivo out of my last movie to avoid giving them undeserved exposure and I'm yanking them out of everywhere else as soon as I figure out which of these MANY other devices are better. (Pioneer just came out with a really good one - check it out)


----------



## Justin Thyme

cinthia said:


> This is clearly something that could be taken care of easily.


If it is so clear, then perhaps you would put together the development plan, addressing the legal costs and the profit model.

If it is so clear, then you would sure to be awarded a significant remuneration from Tivo for showing them the way to profitability.

Or perhaps you thought that Tivo was a charity organization. Perhaps they should also not be neglecting the 58 million Windows 98 users, or the 18 to 50 million linux users. If not charity, then what- oh yeah loyalty. Say Tivo came out first with TTG on the Mac, and bent over backwards to support it. Tell me how long do you suppose mac users would stay with the Tivo when Jobs rolls out an Apple DVR? Be honest. Yeah right. So much for loyalty.

If TTG was some kind of wild success and that 1 in 3 people buying a Tivo were buying it because of TTG, then that's 33% of 4% of 1.3 million the current SA Tivo base. Let's see. 17,000 people.

Yeah. Real huge payoffs there. I get it. Very clear. Thanks for straightening us all out.


----------



## chessplayer

The support page still says "TiVo is working hard to make the TiVoToGo feature available on TiVo Desktop for Mac," as do the CSRs.

Does anyone really believe this is true any more?

If TiVo considers its Mac users insignificant as a business decision, they should simply say so, not string us along like this.

Meanwhile, I just bought a DVD Recorder at Costco for under $150, and will use that while I wait to decide whether to buy an eyeTV or wait for an Apple or other Mac-friendly PVR. The DVD Recorder is easy to use, works in conjunction with TiVo, VCRs, etc., and makes it easy to edit out commercials or put together favorite clips from different shows. So, that is working well so far.


----------



## Fofer

chessplayer said:


> Meanwhile, I just bought a DVD Recorder at Costco for under $150 ... makes it easy to edit out commercials or put together favorite clips from different shows. So, that is working well so far.


which one?


----------



## Justin Thyme

Either wait for Jobs or wait for Tivo.

Or don't wait  and either get a mini with EyeTv or a garage sale PC decorated with garlic.

Make up your mind, or get righteously indignant about corporations like apple or tivo being less than candid about exactly when they are going to be able to please you.

Life is rough.


----------



## TheSlyBear

> Or perhaps you thought that Tivo was a charity organization.


What you and apparently TiVo don't understand is that it's not really about the number of subscribers or even the present-day bottom line. It's all about *mind-share*. TiVo once had it in droves -- now they're rapidly losing it. And while it's not _just_ the Mac debacles, they're not an insignificant contributor.

Even it the Mac community is only 15% of their customer base (only? that's not a trivial percentage), it's a highly *influential* base. I think TiVo is making a rather large mistake by underestimating this portion of their customer base.


----------



## Justin Thyme

What few people in enthusiast circles realize is that most people could care less about any of these features which we spit blood about. 

They could care even less about mind share. If it is a DVR and does 75% what brand X does, and it is free then what the heck.

As far as most people are concerned, a DVR is a commodity that is oftentimes given free by a cable or satellite service. 

Mind share means squat to the general population.

Let's be honest. TTG is generating negligible additional subscriptions. So how would expanding the number of platforms change that fact?

In the face of DVR giveaways by the cablecos, CE companies are having a very tough time making any money on standalone dvrs regardless how much buzz there is about their product.

Current management is very much in a mode of accelerating efforts on projects which generate money, not those that spend money or scarce enginieering resources on projects that have symbolic but not financial significance.


----------



## chessplayer

Fofer said:


> which one?


 I got a 
Lite-On LVW-5005 for $129 (plus tax) at Costco. Reviews I found were mixed, but for the price I thought it was well worth a try. I've made two 6-hour DVDs so far (with shows that weren't recorded in great quality to begin with), and it's worked perfectly and is very easy to use. I'm also using it as a DVD player, and it's working well for that too.


----------



## TheSlyBear

> Mind share means squat to the general population.


Don't know much about marketing, eh? Mindshare *is* the general population.

Whenever I used to talk about TiVo to non-techies, I used to get reactions like "I've heard great things...". Now, I get "Aren't they kind of washed up?". The perception of TiVo in the general public is changing.

Which upsets me greatly because I still love my TiVos (I personally could give a rat's patootie about TiVoToGo).


----------



## Justin Thyme

I heard Comcast's DVRs were crap. I also heard they were free. Wrap your marketing mind around that.

Tivo's mindshare means squat to the general population. Most people could care less about what the buzz is about this or that product when they are confronted with this marketing concept so brutal and fundamental that you may not be familiar with it:

Free.

It's not real complicated. 

It has nothing to do with the faddish word of mouth of what's in and what is old hat. If Ore-Ida russet potatoes are old hat but the potatoes are free, I think you and I know there will be few in the crowd who are slaves to fashion.

You are misapplying the rules of the technology fashion statement world to a rougher world ruled by much more brutal marketing techniques.

The newly adopted advertising profit model requires access to the largest set of eyeballs. The focus is on Tivo insinuating itself into channels that will much more agressively distribute its platform. 

That means enticing the carriers with features concerning advertisements, not attempting to entice users. And how better to entice masses of users than porting last years feature that flopped to some obscure personal computer platform.


----------



## thehand

I assume you by obscure you mean "better" computer platform.


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## Justin Thyme

Of course it is better in most respects. That's not the issue. If people aren't using a feature that only works on the more common platform, then that is a pretty good indication that the market response will be the same on more obscure platforms.

Evaluated from the perspective of whether TTG drives sales, TTG failed. That may miss the long term value of TTG, but at this point the evaluation management is most interested in is "Where is the money?"


----------



## Austin Bike

You're absolutely right on the 4% number being BS, it's closer to 2.5-3% tops.

This is not to knock the macs, they're fine systems, but instead, it's simply the wakeup call for mac owners. When you choose you platform, any platform (including a PC), you make a decision about things. You decide what you will and, more importantly, will not have support for.

To say that Tivo is negligent for focusing on the 3% of the market is really not the issue. We're all glad you're happy with your mac and its great that there are things that you can rub our noses in (like viruses), but stop for a second and understand that the virus writers and tivo are identical:

THEY BOTH WRITE PROGRAMS FOR THE PC PLATFORM BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE THE USERS ARE.

A friend used to rave about linux because it was "immune" to viruses. But he got one recently - because more people are using linux virus writers are taking notice.

Be careful of what you wish for.

Be happy with your mac, you made a lifestyle choice and you chose the platform - every platform has warts.



cinthia said:


> This is clearly something that could be taken care of easily.
> PC users undoubtedly are the masses but fact is, more self employed & entrepreneurs use Mac. including 99% of the music, television and movie industry - writers, producers, editers... Tivo owes most of it's existence to the independently creative people who provide the content for their programs. They need to wake up and realize they are literally biting the hand that feeds them.
> 
> There was a time when Tivo was IT - but no more. There are so many devices that do the same thing now. The only hope they have is to rely on loyalty. And irritating or not, Mac users are LOYAL. Like the former poster, I also own 5 Tivo2s, have given no less than 10 as wedding & graduation gifts since they came out. No more.
> I'm tired of searching these posts to figure out how to access the content by IP. I'm sick of the PC laptop I purchased JUST so I could run Tivo2 - (and if any of you guys are thinking that would be a great solution - it isn't! WindowsXP is still a wannabe Mac system that sucks - not to mention the VIRUS problem)
> 
> For me, I'm done waiting. If Tivo had any intention of doing the right thing, they'd have done it by now. I yanked the Tivo out of my last movie to avoid giving them undeserved exposure and I'm yanking them out of everywhere else as soon as I figure out which of these MANY other devices are better. (Pioneer just came out with a really good one - check it out)


----------



## rog

Yes, yes, yes... blah, blah, blah. We've heard all this before, several times in this very thread in fact.

All a lot of us are asking for is for TiVo to step up and communicate their plans clearly.

Not supporting Macs is one thing. Lying about Mac support is another thing altogether.


----------



## foureyedave19

> Yes, yes, yes... blah, blah, blah. We've heard all this before, several times in this very thread in fact.
> 
> All a lot of us are asking for is for TiVo to step up and communicate their plans clearly.
> 
> Not supporting Macs is one thing. Lying about Mac support is another thing altogether.


EXACTLY, whilst I personally would be keen on having the ability to archive a favorite show of mine for later viewing (or possibly sharing with a select few) ... that isn't the reason I continually return to this thread. I come back to find out whether any date has been released, knowing this is a long shot, but mainly to see what others think about the lack of communication and the blatant lies TiVo has inflicted upon us, NOT to read Justin Thyme (cool name buddy) enter into a thread, where I am willing to assume he is not appreciated or wanted, and talk s**t. Why don't you go troll so other thread...


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## davezatz

foureyedave19 said:


> NOT to read Justin Thyme (cool name buddy) enter into a thread, where I am willing to assume he is not appreciated or wanted, and talk s**t.


I'm a Mac owner and I appreciate him. Now let's have a group hug and sing camp fire songs.


----------



## mattman

Kumbaya....


----------



## ZeoTiVo

rog said:


> Not supporting Macs is one thing. Lying about Mac support is another thing altogether.


man I hold off this thread for a while and come back and people are still claiming TiVo lied about Mac support. non communicative is what TiVo is.

anyone care to actually find a lie and quote it. Just one place where Tivo said they would deliver TTG for Mac along some timeframe. heck I will even take a season like summer or fall. Or actually where they said anything other than "working hard on it", which is a vauge subjective phrase that can neither be proved or disproved by anyone not working at TiVo and never a very hopeful phrase either.

Mac users are understandably upset that Mac support is slipping away at TiVo and thus gets you cranky and prone to type away but there was no lie from TiVo, they simply closed the door without saying a thing.

flame suit getting kind of tight, have to let it out a little


----------



## Fofer

C'mon. TiVo's not working on Mac anything. We all know it. They just haven't come out and said it. They're just stringing us along like a backup date for the prom.


----------



## rog

ZeoTiVo... this is what I call "turd polishing". Do it all you want; have fun with it.










Can't we just call a spade a spade?


----------



## cinthia

Justin "methinks thou doth protest too much". Black Folks are roughly 20% of the population. Asians even less. Would it make sense morally or financially to ignore huge sections of the population? Of course not. 

bootedbear is right. It's about mindshare. There was a time Tivo was the generic name for PVRs, like Kleenex and but no more. That's something no amount of money can buy.
Tivo need to widen their focus. They are sabotaging themselves - missing the big picture.


----------



## cinthia

ZeoTiVo said:


> man I hold off this thread for a while and come back and people are still claiming TiVo lied about Mac support. non communicative is what TiVo is.
> ...
> 
> Mac users are understandably upset that Mac support is slipping away at TiVo and thus gets you cranky and prone to type away but there was no lie from TiVo, they simply closed the door without saying a thing.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that passive aggressive stuff does make people crazy. Cowards!


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## chessplayer

rog said:


> ZeoTiVo... this is what I call "turd polishing". Do it all you want; have fun with it.


 I like that phrase, very apt (nice picture too). 

Does anyone here still believe that TiVo is working hard on TTG for the Mac support, as they claim on their website and as the CSRs routinely insist?

Yeah yeah, it depends on the definition of "working hard." And it depends on the definition of "is." 

Please, let's not debate such semantics....

The bottom line is that many of us here would just like some honest, straightforward communication from TiVo rather than the vague, evasive, and misleading statements we've gotten. If TiVo really respects their Mac customers, as they claim to, it's a small thing to ask.


----------



## Fofer

chessplayer said:


> The bottom line is that many of us here would just like some honest, straightforward communication from TiVo rather than the vague, evasive, and misleading statements we've gotten. If TiVo really respects their Mac customers, as they claim to, it's a small thing to ask.


Heh. Well, what do you expect them to say at this point?

"Okay, Mac users, you caught us. We have no clue where to even begin. Mac support for TTG is so off our radar at this point it's not even funny. We're struggling to stay afloat and can't even get a handle on your TiVo Desktop/HMO software anymore. We let our Mac contractors go about a year ago, after DTV dumped us and it looked like we were dead. So please, get off our backs. We have bigger things to worry about."

Of course I'm saying this in jest, but I refuse to believe they're "working hard" on Mac TTG when they haven't even made a definitive statement/update on TiVo Desktop/HMO compatibility for our current OS ("Tiger.")

I think in TiVo corporate speak, "working hard on Mac support," in actuality means "working hard to become a viable company with a future so we have the resources to look into to the possibility of supporting Mac one day."

I believe they've looked into the possibility of some QuickTime-based DRM, and perhaps spoken to Apple about it. But do I think they have programmers "working hard" on it? No.


----------



## Justin Thyme

cinthia said:


> Black Folks are roughly 20% of the population. Asians even less. Would it make sense morally or financially to ignore huge sections of the population? Of course not.


Your annoyance with not getting a feature is nothing similar to the death, torture and lifelong misery multiplied by the billions who have felt racism. How dare you make this comparison.

For cripes sake- it is just a computer. Does your self pity have no bounds? You chose a trendy computer that many companies cannot afford to support. Just because a person has a different color of skin does not mean they can't do the same job. If a computer has a different CPU and OS, it certainly cannot do the same job without a great deal of expense.

I saw no response to my argument to bootedbear. If mindshare matters then why are so many more people using Comcast DVRs?

TTG support is not changing the buying decisions of anything more than a handful of zealot/geeks.

A business is about taking in more money in than it spends. Spending money on expanding the support of TTG that did not bring in any money makes zero business sense.

Zero.

You would rather see Tivo die so you could have your feature for a few brief years. Then you would be left in a wasteland of Carrier supplied DVRs.

If you hate Tivo so much- get any of the PVR programs for the Mac.

Be an adult and stop whining. Do something. Or nail yourself on a cardboard cross and make a spectacle of yourself.

Pathetic what zealotry does to folks.


----------



## timg

Justin Thyme - why are you in this thread? Do you not have a life?

I have only Macs at home and my annoyance with Tivo as a company stems not from the lack of TivoToGo that works on my platform of choice, but instead in the lack of communication and straight answers on the subject.

I've gotten plenty of use out of my Tivo before TivoToGo existed and it still performs the same functions now, although these days the menus have been slowed down quite a bit with the new software version. All I want is for Tivo to respect me as a customer. If they are going to bring TivoToGo to the Mac platform, tell me and give me a time frame. If they are not, then tell me that. Their comments on the subject to date are nothing more than insulting.


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## Justin Thyme

timg said:


> Justin Thyme - why are you in this thread? Do you not have a life?


 I get it. This is the "everyone is supposed to agree" thread, and no one is supposed to make rational arguments thread, much less respond to dissenting arguments when they are presented, other than to use peer pressure, and parrot over and over and over and over and over the same phrases.

Case in point.


----------



## rog

Justin Thyme said:


> I get it. This is the "everyone is supposed to agree" thread, and no one is supposed to make rational arguments thread, much less respond to dissenting arguments when they are presented, other than to use peer pressure, and parrot over and over and over and over and over the same phrases.
> 
> Case in point.


I think you're getting it!


----------



## foureyedave19

If we say "go away" enough times... it actually works!


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## tonyf3

timg said:


> Justin Thyme - why are you in this thread? Do you not have a life?
> 
> I have only Macs at home and my annoyance with Tivo as a company stems not from the lack of TivoToGo that works on my platform of choice, but instead in the lack of communication and straight answers on the subject.
> 
> I've gotten plenty of use out of my Tivo before TivoToGo existed and it still performs the same functions now, although these days the menus have been slowed down quite a bit with the new software version. All I want is for Tivo to respect me as a customer. If they are going to bring TivoToGo to the Mac platform, tell me and give me a time frame. If they are not, then tell me that. Their comments on the subject to date are nothing more than insulting.


You've encapsulated my point from post #1 when I started this thread. Thank You!
As for everyone else....If you get it, great. If you don't...then have a nice day.


----------



## hargreae

ZeoTiVo said:


> anyone care to actually find a lie and quote it. Just one place where Tivo said they would deliver TTG for Mac along some timeframe. heck I will even take a season like summer or fall. Or actually where they said anything other than "working hard on it", which is a vauge subjective phrase that can neither be proved or disproved by anyone not working at TiVo and never a very hopeful phrase either.
> 
> Mac users are understandably upset that Mac support is slipping away at TiVo and thus gets you cranky and prone to type away but there was no lie from TiVo, they simply closed the door without saying a thing.


When you call TiVo up and ask 'Will the upcoming TiVoToGo functionality be compatible with Macs' and they say 'Yes,' then I think it's reasonable to assume it will be. When the feature arrives and it isn't compatible, was their former statement a lie? We will probably never know, since they may have intended to make it Mac-compatible when the question was asked. The point is that they told us we'd get it and we didn't. Then they said they were "working hard" on it. Six months later, we've had no update. They have everything to gain by pretending that it's coming. At the least, they're being "non-communicative," at the worst, they're being deceptive.

It doesn't help when they upgrade our software to 7.1 in order to provide TiVoToGo functionality and it actually makes the TiVo software slow and buggy.


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## Unix_Beard

Its not as if asking for Mac support (or expecting it based on the past) is going out on a limb. Look, there are *two* viable consumer desktops available - TWO. MacOS and Windows. One would hope a company like Tivo which built itself on technological excellence would have the wherewithal to support the two platforms like the multitude of other companies.

And to borrow a word that Justin Thyme apparently bookmarked in his thesaurus, Tivo would do well to bolster its technological credentials by leveraging the Mac _zealotry_. Zealotry for tech isn't a bad thing, you know. Zealotry means a product is good enough to swear by. You can find that in common with Apple and Tivo.


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## Fofer

Unix_Beard said:


> You can find that in common with Apple and Tivo.


Heh.

Not so much these days... at least not with TiVo! I've noticed that even the most ardent of supporters (myself included) seem especially open to the alternatives being hyped around the corner.

Hmm... I wonder if this is all related, and if it will add up to anything in the end.

"Things that make you go... hmmm....."


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## Justin Thyme

Unix_Beard said:


> Its not as if asking for Mac support (or expecting it based on the past) is going out on a limb.


Of course you are going way out on a limb. It makes so much sense to you why Tivo should do it, but if it were your money, and it was your business that had not made money for the last 8 years, I will wager you would not spend it on a feature that didn't deliver you any profit from windows users.

Zealotry is a particularly apt term when discussing certain jihadists and mac fanatics who magnify the injuries they imagine they have suffered, and react with actions far out of proportion to the injury suffered. My comments were confined to a minority of mac owners who have some dependency between their sense of their personal identity and their product choices- in particular their computer.

I think the vast majority of tivo and mac owners don't have this weakness of character.

But if it were true that Mac Zealotry was much more widespread as you suggest, then the obvious question is, what good is it to Tivo? Even if Tivo had done everything "right" to curry the favor of this group of individuals- how many of such zealots would not dump Tivo when Apple comes out with their DVR product?

So we return to the most important question that none of you want to address, even though it is so simple:

Where is the money?​
TTG for windows didn't deliver any measurable increase in subscriptions, so what reason is there to believe that the experiment would be any different for Mac?

The way to delivering features that do not produce revenue is to generate good profits that can support such projects. That is a hard task. And Tivo is working hard on it.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Nonsense. TTG is simply a value-add, just another reason to buy Tivo'd technology. How many Mac users have forgone the purchase of a Tivo during the past 6 months (and not because of TTG per se but Tivo's problems just keeping the normal HMO functionality)? I'm one individual that bought a Tivo explicitly for its home media functionality - if I were to buy on DVR technology alone way back when, I would have bought a ReplayTV. But I was hoodwinked, sucked in as a consumer who purchased -Mac support- with my Tivo. Within a year, it was gone.  And now its back in HMO at least. 

As for the cost of doing business, that is not my concern. As a consumer, I only have so much disposable income. I currently do business with Cingular, XM, my ISP, my cable company, eMusic.com, Netflix, HBO, Verizon, and other monthly subscriptions. If I had to worry about everyone's business model as it related to my satisfaction as a customer, I'd have no time to enjoy the services. If one of the companies I do business with drops the ball, I move on and spend my money elsewhere. As it stands now, I have two lifetime Tivo units. I will not buy another one until Tivo recommits itself to the platform. As I noted, there are only two platforms - spending extra on Apple support is made up on the Windows side. Its a balance. Please don't cry to me about business plans - I don't care.

Alienating a user base that is both tech savvy and not afraid to spend money is not a wise idea. Someone posted in this thread very early on that catering to the Mac crowd creates tech buzz. The Apple community creates buzz that can be heard above the continuous drone coming from Redmond.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Unix_Beard said:


> As for the cost of doing business, that is not my concern.


 That's exactly my point. It is Tivo Corp.'s concern.

This is not a charity. This is a business. TTG was an experiment that did not deliver revenues from a very large user base of Windows users.

You have provided no evidence that it would be any different on the Mac platform.


----------



## tonyf3

Unix_Beard said:


> Nonsense. TTG is simply a value-add, just another reason to buy Tivo'd technology. How many Mac users have forgone the purchase of a Tivo during the past 6 months (and not because of TTG per se but Tivo's problems just keeping the normal HMO functionality)? I'm one individual that bought a Tivo explicitly for its home media functionality - if I were to buy on DVR technology alone way back when, I would have bought a ReplayTV. But I was hoodwinked, sucked in as a consumer who purchased -Mac support- with my Tivo. Within a year, it was gone.  And now its back in HMO at least.
> 
> As for the cost of doing business, that is not my concern. As a consumer, I only have so much disposable income. I currently do business with Cingular, XM, my ISP, my cable company, eMusic.com, Netflix, HBO, Verizon, and other monthly subscriptions. If I had to worry about everyone's business model as it related to my satisfaction as a customer, I'd have no time to enjoy the services. If one of the companies I do business with drops the ball, I move on and spend my money elsewhere. As it stands now, I have two lifetime Tivo units. I will not buy another one until Tivo recommits itself to the platform. As I noted, there are only two platforms - spending extra on Apple support is made up on the Windows side. Its a balance. Please don't cry to me about business plans - I don't care.
> 
> Alienating a user base that is both tech savvy and not afraid to spend money is not a wise idea. Someone posted in this thread very early on that catering to the Mac crowd creates tech buzz. The Apple community creates buzz that can be heard above the continuous drone coming from Redmond.


So True. Then the tech savvy user base moves on. If Apple's PVR comes out tomorrow and it meets or exceeds Tivos functionality.....it's all over. I'm gone. Tivo's on ebay.


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## Unix_Beard

Justin Thyme said:


> That's exactly my point. It is Tivo Corp.'s concern.
> 
> This is not a charity. This is a business. TTG was an experiment that did not deliver revenues from a very large user base of Windows users.
> 
> You have provided no evidence that it would be any different on the Mac platform.


So I take it you would advise Tivo not to add any additional functionality that would not quantify into new accounts? For instance, should Tivo not bother developing intelligent scheduling between multiple household Tivos? Why not just threadcrap on the entire Tivo Suggestion forum?


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## foureyedave19

Precisely, While a business' sole purpose is gain of profit... they cannot give up on a user base, no matter the size. To do so could be corporate suicide in my eyes. TiVo has so forth done this exactly, leaving itself falling behind. You say "BUY A COMPUTER INTERFACED PVR!" but in the end, whom would this hurt... TiVo. As said before TiVo, being a "geekier" product than many other electronic / computer peripherals, probably has a higher precentage of Mac users. Most of whom would use TTG if available assume. Then, would the loss of income from the monthly subscription based "Mac jihadists" (no, but seriously.... you are kidding me right?) be more or less than the cost for some Mac support? I am no code writer of any sort, but I honestly doubt that with just a "hint" of effort, a team could handle that. And hell you know what? I'll pay their salary with the $13.00 a month that TiVo wouldn't lose and the $7.00 a piece for the second and third. I'm putting $24 a month into this company currently, and this is fine, but shouldn't I get the same features as any Windows user? STILL though, some say "why wait you know it isn't coming." Hmm... the one time I called they were "Working on it, Sir." STILL MORE... all I really need is a clear, decisive statement with an ANSWER. Six months (more), a year, never. At this point I don't care, I just want to know what to expect and when. 
Oh and Justin if you're going to be a jackass, do so sensibly. Re-read what you wrote, maybe have a friend read it, and then when you realize that your arguments are 90% bull**** and you don't know your left from your right. Stand up, walk away from your Windows box, and go outside... 6.5 posts a day... there is a whole REAL world right behind that door.


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## Justin Thyme

Yes Tivo is being left behind. Take a look at who is getting the huge increases in DVRs. They have one feature that Tivo has been just too stupid to think of:

Free.​
Can Tivo deliver profit during this period of DVR giveaways? I think so- but like it or not, it doesn't matter how much they differentiate themselves from generic DVRs. The rules of trendy consumer electronics marketing do not apply. Free is free.



Unix_Beard said:


> So I take it you would advise Tivo not to add any additional functionality that would not quantify into new accounts?


 You pointed out that it is important to add value to a product. That is correct. You value TTG, and I value TTG. But the public quite simply does not. I doubt that the percentage of buyers who are even aware of the capability gets into the double digits. Even many enthusiasts and contributors to this forum that once used TTG often, seldom if ever do now. I for one haven't burned a TTG video in over a month. DaveZatz also said he has given up on it.

If you think that is BS, then just ask around.

Value is what the public says it is. If the public doesn't value what you have added, then you have not added value. You may have delivered on a coolness factor but it matters little if people opt for the free product because it is... well... free.

If you continue a pattern of spending on features that people do not value, then you will be bankrupt. You wouldn't do that if it were your money you were spending on development. If you had lost money for 8 years, you wouldn't do it with your business, but you expect Tivo to.

And what are you guys threatening Tivo with? Walking? Take a look around. We enthusiast/ earlier adopters hardly represent the "User Base". Be honest. We are in the vast minority of Tivo users.

Is it insulting that among the 3 million Tivo users that the features that we really want Tivo to build in reality do not matter that much to other the users?

No. It is simply accurate.

All of you decline to make a business case for such a move and it is not surprising why.

I don't blame you for not caring about Tivo having a sane business plan. Everyone wants a free ride.

And the CableCo's are quite willing to accomodate. They would love to take everyone for a ride.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Justin - You are missing the point. Whether or not the technology value-adds are adopted by huge numbers is irrelevant. The way Tivo differentiates themselves from the genero-boxes is with precisely these kinds of features. And maybe if Tivo got their head out of their ass and came up with a better solution for TTG (DRM on cable TV? c'mon!) the functionality would be more embraced. I'd say if they DID deliver a kickass Mac product, it would be hyped to high heaven on every tech blog from here to Cupertino. Leave a back door open. They do it with the dreaded and not-talked-about 30-second skip. They back door it. Why does Tivo feel this overwhelming need to DRM Everybody Loves Raymond?


----------



## gonzotek

Unix_Beard said:


> And maybe if Tivo got their head out of their ass and came up with a better solution for TTG (DRM on cable TV? c'mon!) the functionality would be more embraced. I'd say if they DID deliver a kickass Mac product, it would be hyped to high heaven on every tech blog from here to Cupertino. Leave a back door open. They do it with the dreaded and not-talked-about 30-second skip. They back door it. Why does Tivo feel this overwhelming need to DRM Everybody Loves Raymond?


The same could be said for Apple and iTMS. The answer is that neither TiVo nor Apple own the content passing though their service, and the content owners demanded that the DRM 'feature' be a part of their product. Both companies worked with the content providers to bring the services to the public, if they hadn't they would quickly have been bogged down in piracy litigation, especially in light of the Grokster ruling. Yes, they are vastly different services and service models, but the fact that TiVo and Apple don't own the rights to the content means that the rights-holders get a say in what and how each will do. So complain to CBS and the producers of Raymond that the TiVo is encrypting the show and making it impossible for you to enjoy it the way you want, because I can guarantee than the programmers at TiVo would have loved to do something else (for instance, intelligent multi-unit scheduling) and not to have to implement the DRM code.


----------



## Unix_Beard

gonzotek said:


> The same could be said for Apple and iTMS. The answer is that neither TiVo nor Apple own the content passing though their service, and the content owners demanded that the DRM 'feature' be a part of their product. Both companies worked with the content providers to bring the services to the public, if they hadn't they would quickly have been bogged down in piracy litigation, especially in light of the Grokster ruling. Yes, they are vastly different services and service models, but the fact that TiVo and Apple don't own the rights to the content means that the rights-holders get a say in what and how each will do. So complain to CBS and the producers of Raymond that the TiVo is encrypting the show and making it impossible for you to enjoy it the way you want, because I can guarantee than the programmers at TiVo would have loved to do something else (for instance, intelligent multi-unit scheduling) and not to have to implement the DRM code.


Nonsense. Where is the DRM on every other PVR on the planet? Media Center? EyeTV? ReplayTV? VCRs? DVD-recorders? How can there be piracy on cable TV? Cable is ubiquitous. Time-shifting is not piracy.

Apple is SELLING content not providing a means of recording it. Your analogy is completely off point.


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## gonzotek

All good points, however this isn't an opinion, it's a documented fact that TiVo did this.


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## Justin Thyme

Unix_Beard said:


> The way Tivo differentiates themselves from the genero-boxes is with precisely these kinds of features.


I see that you understand how to use the word differentiate. You may recall it from the fourth sentence from my last note. 


Justin Thyme said:


> Yes Tivo is being left behind. Take a look at who is getting the huge increases in DVRs. They have one feature that Tivo has been just too stupid to think of:
> 
> Free.​
> Can Tivo deliver profit during this period of DVR giveaways? I think so- *but like it or not, it doesn't matter how much they differentiate themselves from generic DVRs *. The rules of trendy consumer electronics marketing do not apply. Free is free.


You were saying someone missed the point. Really. I can't agree with you more. Bugbear had no response to it, nor do you. Perhaps you would get your mind around the problem that Tivo as well as all other independent CE DVR manufacturers are facing:


Justin Thyme said:


> Most people could care less about what the buzz is about this or that product when they are confronted with this marketing concept so brutal and fundamental that you may not be familiar with it:
> 
> Free.
> 
> It's not real complicated.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the faddish word of mouth of what's in and what is old hat. If Ore-Ida russet potatoes are old hat but the potatoes are free, I think you and I know there will be few in the crowd who are slaves to fashion.
> 
> You are misapplying the rules of the technology fashion statement world to a rougher world ruled by much more brutal marketing techniques.


So don't trouble yourself with the words zealotry or differentiate. Start with that simple four letter word that starts with F.


----------



## rog

Justin Thyme said:


> Zealotry is a particularly apt term when discussing certain jihadists and mac fanatics who magnify the injuries they imagine they have suffered, and react with actions far out of proportion to the injury suffered.


Ever hear of Godwin's law?

_As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 (i.e. certainty)._

from: wikipedia.org

We should expand it to include comparisons between Mac users and "jihadists", thus automatically invalidating your entire point. 

You spew out some really ridiculous stuff...


----------



## Unix_Beard

Justin Thyme said:


> I see that you understand how to use the word differentiate. You may recall it from the fourth sentence from my last note.
> 
> You were saying someone missed the point. Really. I can't agree with you more. Bugbear had no response to it, nor do you. Perhaps you would get your mind around the problem that Tivo as well as all other independent CE DVR manufacturers are facing:
> 
> So don't trouble yourself with the words zealotry or differentiate. Start with that simple four letter word that starts with F.


I think you are missing the fact that millions of consumers are willing to pay a premium for a superior product. I certainly am. I could have a free DVR right now but there very fact that the Tivo makes it easy for me to stream a large collection of music in my house is a differentiating factor. I don't expect the masses to adopt the technology but Tivo should not be expecting it either. Play the niche. Play off the technology. Apple's doing quite well using the philosophy.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Unix_Beard said:


> I millions of consumers are willing to pay a premium for a superior product. I certainly am.


 Me too, and I hope that Tivo or perhaps some other DVR provider like Apple will prevail. Judging from the MCE 2005, I don't expect much from that direction though I will keep an open mind. This is a difficult period though because most people do not percieve the value of these differentiating features.

And it is especially difficult because "free" is not the only feature that the CableCos are competing with. The latest Open Cable software from Motorolla (available to Comast 6412's) have the HMO features of listening to music or viewing pictures off of the PC.

I say again it is wrong to misapply the rules of conventional CE marketing warfare. Apple did not have to compete with free. If the music distributors had given away free Rio's as part of an online subsciption business there never would have been an iPod.



rog said:


> ..thus automatically invalidating your entire point.
> 
> You spew out some really ridiculous stuff...


Exactly which point was invalidated?

Zealotry is not an admirable trait.
The vast majority of mac owners do not suffer from this character flaw. 
Zealots attempt to position themselves as representing the majority of people in their community, when in fact most in that community cannot relate to their fanaticism, and resent being lumped together with extremist views.
Zealots magnify the injuries they imagine they have suferred. They are unable to let go of the injuries precisely because it is an essential pillar of their self-identity. 
Their responses are way out of proportion to the real injury (if any) suffered.
What problem do you have with these statements? I'm not holding up a mirror if these statements have nothing to do with you, so don't take it personally. But if you feel injured by them, then it is cause for reflection.


----------



## rog

Justin Thyme said:


> Exactly which point was invalidated?
> 
> Zealotry is not an admirable trait.
> The vast majority of mac owners do not suffer from this character flaw.
> Zealots attempt to position themselves as representing the majority of people in their community, when in fact most in that community cannot relate to their fanaticism, and resent being lumped together with extremist views.
> Zealots magnify the injuries they imagine they have suferred. They are unable to let go of the injuries precisely because it is an essential pillar of their self-identity.
> Their responses are way out of proportion to the real injury (if any) suffered.


You _clearly_ didn't read the wikipedia article and are not familiar with Godwin's law, so you way missed my point. You made it worse when you quoted me because you left off the first half of my sentence. Don't do that.

Let me post a bit more from the article on Godwin's law:



> Godwin's law (also Godwin's rule of Nazi analogies) is an adage in Internet culture that was originated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states that:
> 
> As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 (i.e. certainty).
> 
> *There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.*


Godwin's law is a funny principle noted by long term users of Usenet (or what has become Google Groups, really) which notes that discussions will often deteriorate to the point of making ridiculous comparisons to Nazis or Hitler. I was wishing to extend that to your use of the term "jihadist" when talking about Mac users.

Jihadists and Zealots are two different things.

For the love of God, don't make me explain why it isn't ever appropriate to label a Mac Zealot as a Jihadist. Mac Zealots don't exactly promote violence, now do they?


----------



## Justin Thyme

I'm still waiting for some explanation of which of the points are invalid.

I did not equate mac zealots with jihadists. You did. I said zealotry is a word that applies to both.


----------



## rog

Justin Thyme said:


> I'm still waiting for some explanation of which of the points are invalid.
> 
> I did not equate mac zealots with jihadists. You did. I said zealotry is a word that applies to both.


You don't get it. Specifics aside, when you make ridiculous comparisons like that, your overall points get lost in the rhetoric. It's not me invalidating your point, it's the principle of Godwin's law. Again:



> There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.


After all, there is absolutely no justification for even using the term jihadist when talking about mac users/fans/zealots. None.


----------



## tchwojko

Justin Thyme said:


> Their responses are way out of proportion to the real injury (if any) suffered.


You are absolutely correct! It is completely out of line to complain both to the service provider and on this message board about a feature that doesn't satisfy them! How dare they speak up and make their discontent known!


----------



## tchwojko

32 pages.

Tivo: "We're making a new feature called 'TivoToGo', and it'll be available on Windows and Mac."
Customers: "Yay!"
Tivo: "Ok, it's ready for some boxes and Windows 2k/XP users. We're still working on the Mac version. Here ya go."
Windows customers: "Yay!"
Mac customers: Drums fingers...
...several months later...
Mac customers: "Well?"
Tivo: "We're working on it."
Mac customers: "Yeah, right."
Tivo Exec: "It's really expensive to develop it for the Mac..."
Angry Mac customers: "You lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "Well, you Mac people really shouldn't expect Tivo to afford it."
Mac customers: "We want TivoToGo, and we want to know if and when."
Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "Would you all stop complaining!"
Mac customers: "I don't think they're going to do it. That's upsetting!"
Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "It would be bad business to develop for a small market like Mac users."
Mac customers: "Any word? What the heck?"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Mac customers: "Didn't what?"
Justin Thyme: "Don't be a zealot! You're overreacting!"
Mac customers: "Go away!"
Justin Thyme: "See?!"


----------



## Fofer

tchwojko said:


> 32 pages.
> 
> Tivo: "We're making a new feature called 'TivoToGo', and it'll be available on Windows and Mac."
> Customers: "Yay!"
> Tivo: "Ok, it's ready for some boxes and Windows 2k/XP users. We're still working on the Mac version. Here ya go."
> Windows customers: "Yay!"
> Mac customers: Drums fingers...
> ...several months later...
> Mac customers: "Well?"
> Tivo: "We're working on it."
> Mac customers: "Yeah, right."
> Tivo Exec: "It's really expensive to develop it for the Mac..."
> Angry Mac customers: "You lied to us!"
> ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
> Justin Thyme: "Well, you Mac people really shouldn't expect Tivo to afford it."
> Mac customers: "We want TivoToGo, and we want to know if and when."
> Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
> ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
> Justin Thyme: "Would you all stop complaining!"
> Mac customers: "I don't think they're going to do it. That's upsetting!"
> Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
> ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
> Justin Thyme: "It would be bad business to develop for a small market like Mac users."
> Mac customers: "Any word? What the heck?"
> ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
> Mac customers: "Didn't what?"
> Justin Thyme: "Don't be a zealot! You're overreacting!"
> Mac customers: "Go away!"
> Justin Thyme: "See?!"


Fofer: "Thanks, tchwojko, for your brilliant (and accurate) summary!"

 :up:


----------



## dgh

Wash
Rinse
Repeat


----------



## rog

tchwojko said:


> 32 pages.
> 
> Tivo: "We're making a new feature called 'TivoToGo', and it'll be available on Windows and Mac."
> Customers: "Yay!"
> Tivo: "Ok, it's ready for some boxes and Windows 2k/XP users. We're still working on the Mac version. Here ya go."
> Windows customers: "Yay!"
> Mac customers: Drums fingers...
> ...several months later...
> Mac customers: "Well?"
> Tivo: "We're working on it."
> Mac customers: "Yeah, right."
> Tivo Exec: "It's really expensive to develop it for the Mac..."
> Angry Mac customers: "You lied to us!"
> ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
> Justin Thyme: "Well, you Mac people really shouldn't expect Tivo to afford it."
> Mac customers: "We want TivoToGo, and we want to know if and when."
> Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
> ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
> Justin Thyme: "Would you all stop complaining!"
> Mac customers: "I don't think they're going to do it. That's upsetting!"
> Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
> ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
> Justin Thyme: "It would be bad business to develop for a small market like Mac users."
> Mac customers: "Any word? What the heck?"
> ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
> Mac customers: "Didn't what?"
> Justin Thyme: "Don't be a zealot! You're overreacting!"
> Mac customers: "Go away!"
> Justin Thyme: "See?!"


LMAO. 

This is perfect. A nice timely injection of humor too; it was much needed.


----------



## rog

Moving along...

Some of you may have seen this, but there is a new app being developed for OS X (Tiger) called TivoTool.

An overview:

http://www.tuaw.com/2005/07/28/tivotool-for-mac-os-x-released/

The homepage:

http://tivotool.com/index.html

What's interesting is that this app claims to be able to "extract video - unencrypted - from your networked TiVo to your Mac", even on Series 2 machines.

I was under the impression that the methods used in this hack do NOT work with the newer 540 and other mainstream stand-alone units. The last time I researched this, on the 540 series you had to socket the prom to enable raw (unencrypted) video extraction -- a hardware hack and not an easy task for most folks, to say the least.

So, have the hackers found a way to use the killhdinitrc method on the 540? Or is this blogger spreading the gospel of TivoTool neglecting to look up all the facts?

Thoughts?


----------



## Justin Thyme

rog said:


> After all, there is absolutely no justification for even using the term jihadist when talking about mac users/fans/zealots.


Thank you for your instructions on which words I may and may not use. The term zealotry is an apt term when discussing jihadists and certain mac fanatics.

Mac zealots exhibit the features I described, and each of these features are strongly in evidence in this thread. Once again, which of any of these points are invalid?


Zealotry is not an admirable trait.
The vast majority of mac owners do not suffer from this character flaw.
Zealots attempt to position themselves as representing the majority of people in their community, when in fact most in that community cannot relate to their fanaticism, and resent being lumped together with extremist views.
Zealots magnify the injuries they imagine they have suferred. They are unable to let go of the injuries precisely because it is an essential pillar of their self-identity.
Their responses are way out of proportion to the real injury (if any) suffered.

Interestingly, the forces of silencing dissent are also strongly in evidence here. How ironic that those who presume to champion individualism use tools of repression of the expression of views contrary to those of the herd.

Go ahead, use mockery, use ad hominem attacks, use diversionsary statements.

Anything to avoid responding to the arguments presented to you. Because reason is not the tool of zealots. Resentment, bitterness, emotional appeals to group thinking- these are the tools of fanatics.

Like I said. I am just holding up a mirror. If you don't like what you see, then that provides cause for reflection of a different kind.


----------



## rog

Justin, I think you're taking this a little too personally.

I agree with many (but definitely not all) of your comments.

I started off joking with the Godwin's law comment. I'm sorry, but I still think it is just ridiculous to use jihadist in the context of a conversation about Mac users lacking TiVo support! When you clearly didn't get the reference to Godwin's law, I felt the need to explain myself.

I never claimed once that any of your itemized points on Mac Zealotry were invalid. Frankly, I don't care about them. I agreed to disagree with your view of the problem a long time ago.

I was just attempting to inject a little humor and common sense into the thread because the term jihadist is just ridiculously out of place here. That's the only point I was trying to make.


----------



## rog

P.S. What did you expect? You came into a thread filled with Mac users and started hurling insults around.


----------



## Justin Thyme

rog said:


> We should expand it to include comparisons between Mac users and "jihadists", thus automatically invalidating your entire point.
> 
> You spew out some really ridiculous stuff...


I don't know how I missed it before. "Spew." Funny.

If you withdraw your argument as a "joke", then fine.

My comments were directed towards zealots. How could you possibly feel insulted.


----------



## foureyedave19

Quick note:
Not sure where you are located but... Comcast's DVR is not free. The box it self costs to rent, as well as the remote. But, also there is a monthly subscription fee... 9.95 a month plus 5 for the box/ remote is in actuality more expenisve. Not to mention the requirment of Digital Cable. Do some research before you state lies. 
http://www.comcast.com/dvrmotorola/


----------



## Justin Thyme

For those who have a difficult time comprehending minutely ambiguous messages, consider the table:

...............................Price....EPG/DVR service fee
MCE off the shelf best prices..$999.....Free
Sony Cablecard DVR DHG-HDD250..$799.....Free
Pioneer DVR-531H...............$400.....Free
Tivo standard price 40 hours...$149....$12.95

Comcast 6412...................Free.....$9.99


John Q. Public understands this table quite well. That is why the runaway most popular DVRs are those provided by the carriers.

Sorry, at this point the public either doesn't know or care enough about the differentiating features to overcome the F word.


----------



## dropd

rog said:


> P.S. What did you expect? You came into a thread filled with Mac users and started hurling insults around.


Rog (and others),

Please do not feed the troll. I have made this mistake in the past.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Evasion of arguments tactic number 538:

Label the dissenter a non person. Only listen to the people who agree with you.


----------



## dropd

dropd said:


> Rog (and others),
> 
> Please do not feed the troll. I have made this mistake in the past.


(cue davezatz to come and post about how much he appreciates Mr. Thyme's "insights").


----------



## dropd

Justin Thyme said:


> Evasion of arguments tactic number 538:
> 
> Label the dissenter a non person. Only listen to the people who agree with you.


Breaking my own rules responding, but:

Trolling tactic number 734: The strawman argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman


----------



## foureyedave19

> For those who have a difficult time comprehending minutely ambiguous messages, consider the table:
> 
> ...............................Price....EPG/DVR service fee
> MCE off the shelf best prices..$999.....Free
> Sony Cablecard DVR DHG-HDD250..$799.....Free
> Pioneer DVR-531H...............$400.....Free
> Tivo standard price 40 hours...$149....$12.95
> 
> Comcast 6412...................Free.....$9.99
> 
> John Q. Public understands this table quite well. That is why the runaway most popular DVRs are those provided by the carriers.


You write that the comcast DVR itself is free in cost. You are actually very wrong. You are not purchasing anything, correct but there is and always has been a box rental fee. As I had said before, but you probably missed that due to your selective reading and your rush to type often times misconstruing the facts and force feeding your "ridiculous" comments down our throats ...

P.S. Loved the refference to the wikipedia article... good read  I know I shouldn't feed it... but isn't it just so much fun!


----------



## skanter

tonyf3 said:


> Unbelievable! Have the development team take a field trip to an Apple retail store and then tell me why the finest most powerful Media platform in the computer business is basically being ignored by Tivo. There's no time line or even a suggestion of a release date. .


STILL no Mac support? Jeeeeeeez!

Continual "Not available for Mac" and "Windows only" for software I wanted were the main reasons I jumped the Mac ship over to the Dark Side years ago. Too frustrating...


----------



## rog

skanter said:


> STILL no Mac support? Jeeeeeeez!
> 
> Continual "Not available for Mac" and "Windows only" for software I wanted were the main reasons I jumped the Mac ship over to the Dark Side years ago. Too frustrating...


Yep. Pretty lame huh?

I ride both horses myself.

Just out of curiosity, which apps pulled you away from the Mac? We've probably covered this at least once in this thread, but there aren't too many genres of software out there that aren't covered on both platforms. Most exceptions are in niche markets.


----------



## Fofer

rog said:


> Moving along...
> 
> Some of you may have seen this, but there is a new app being developed for OS X (Tiger) called TivoTool.
> 
> An overview:
> 
> http://www.tuaw.com/2005/07/28/tivotool-for-mac-os-x-released/
> 
> The homepage:
> 
> http://tivotool.com/index.html
> 
> What's interesting is that this app claims to be able to "extract video - unencrypted - from your networked TiVo to your Mac", even on Series 2 machines.


Wow, rog, thanks for bringing this to my attention... I hadn't heard of it. And it appears to work VERY, VERY well. Awesome! :up: I've been waiting for an app like this for a long time. One less thing I need my junky PC for!

Not only can I stream shows "live" off my DirecTivo to my PowerBook, but I can save directly (MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 or others...) It's way faster than TivoToGo (from what I hear) and there's no annoying DRM to worry about. Burning to DVD is built in, too.

This is a very nice development for Mac users who've hacked their TiVos.

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:


----------



## skanter

rog said:


> Yep. Pretty lame huh?
> 
> I ride both horses myself.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, which apps pulled you away from the Mac? We've probably covered this at least once in this thread, but there aren't too many genres of software out there that aren't covered on both platforms. Most exceptions are in niche markets.


It was quite a few years ago, but I remember there were some pretty big choice MIDI/music apps that were either not available for Mac or many versions behind; and Newtek, the company whose video editing software I used for professional work, switched to Windows NT when the Amiga died. I used Atari STs, Amigas, and Macs long before I switched to Windoze.

Now, a big app is Dragon Naturally Speaking which I use instead of typing most of the time. Even David Pogue (huge Mac guy) has a Windows PC just for this program!

Another big issue was compatability with clients and students -- 90% of whom owned PCs, and price as I usually needed 4 or five systems. While I still think Macs are somewhat cooler, I've never been sorry I switched and never looked back...


----------



## rog

Fair enough. With the exception of the compatibility issues you mentioned with students/clients, your reasons were indeed related to niche products.

I've heard Dragon Naturally Speaking is pretty good software, but admittedly have never tried it.

For professional audio/video editing these days, there is no longer any argument that Windows beats the Mac. I'm not claiming the Mac beats Windows in this area either, just that you can perform either task (professionally) on either platform. Apple's acquisition of products like Emagic's Logic (now Logic Pro 7) and its continued work on Soundtrack and Finalcut are some good examples of pro audio/video software for the Mac... just to name a few.

However, I grant that things were _very_ different on Macs 10 years ago. Audio and video production were not what they are now! I suppose the same could be said about "compatibility" between PC's and Macs.

But no more... IMHO, arguments about "compatibility" are mostly marketing diversions these days, unless you're in a really highly specialized profession, or in some other role that demands a platform-specific tool. With the full Microsoft Office suite available for Macs, and the ubiquity of other cross-platform file formats (pdf, txt, rtf, jpg, png, etc.), compatibility between Macs and PC's is a non-issue for almost all of the user base.

No regrets at all? What about when you see a shiny PowerBook running Tiger? Dashboard? Spotlight? If you had today's technology back when Amiga died, would you make the same decision?

Personally, I have to use multiple platforms all day long, and I always find myself on the iBook when I have a choice about the matter.

One word: Polish. That sums up how I feel about the iBook/Tiger combo.


----------



## Justin Thyme

dropd said:


> Breaking my own rules responding, but:
> 
> Trolling tactic number 734: The strawman argument.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman


The fallacy of an ad hominem attack is that even if it succeeds and the character of the the opposing person is shattered in the community, the character of the speaker has no relevance for assessing the validity of the argument presented.

Simply labelling and dismissing people and arguements with labels is no substitute for thinking or honest discussion. If anyone read the explanation of straw man argumentation, then one would know that some misrepresentation of DropD's position had to have occured. Where was the misrepresentation?

Not stated. Ahh yes- "straw man arguement". Ahhh.... Yes...

How does the herd maintain group think? By actively labeling heretics and ostracizing them. Rather than considering the merit of an argument, considering the label which may most effectively be associated with an idea so that it may be quickly disposed of.



foureyedave19 said:


> You write that the comcast DVR itself is free in cost. You are actually very wrong. You are not purchasing anything, correct but there is and always has been a box rental fee.


 You caught me sherlock. How could I have even thought that I could mislead people that cable companies charge monthly fees for equipment?

For the painfully literal minded, I should have said "Free plus $9.99".

Right. So why do you think people are jumping for that proposition rather than the $149 +12.99 proposition?

Think carefully.

It's not because Free + $9.99 has better support for Macintosh, or has comparable TTG-like connectivity, or name any other whizzy feature, or even a decent UI. Features like TTG connectivity are just pissing money into the wind.

Pardon me to return to the theme of this thread. I would not want to interrupt this flooding of OT remarks that belong in a happy hour thread.


----------



## rog

Justin Thyme said:


> The fallacy of an ad hominem attack is that even if it succeeds and the character of the the opposing person is shattered in the community, the character of the speaker has no relevance for assessing the validity of the argument presented.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> How does the herd maintain group think? By actively labeling heretics and ostracizing them. Rather than considering the merit of an argument, considering the label which may most effectively be associated with an idea so that it may be quickly disposed of.


<joke> Quit describing the tactics of the Republican party. </joke>

[rog ducks, prepares for lock]

Justin... the thing is, your above points are valid. We get what you're saying. We're all using ad hominem attacks against you because we don't like what you have to say about the facts.

You're right. We have been.

You're in a thread titled "Mac Users lack Tivo togo support". It's filled with Mac fanatics. Get over yourself.



Justin Thyme said:


> You caught me sherlock. How could I have even thought that I could mislead people that cable companies charge monthly fees for equipment?
> 
> For the painfully literal minded, I should have said "Free plus $9.99".


Oh, come on now... on this one I cut you NO slack. Your post was misleading at best.

P.S. dropd: I only feed it at night.


----------



## Lon

Justin Thyme said:


> It's not because Free + $9.99 has better support for Macintosh, or has comparable TTG-like connectivity, or name any other whizzy feature, or even a decent UI. Features like TTG connectivity are just pissing money into the wind.


It is exactly for these reasons (e.g., Firewire cable to my mac) that I choose to adopt an extra Moto 6208 box to sit next to my mac (no TV in the room). But that's just me, a mac user. (not that you, Justin, would use "ad hominem" yourself)


----------



## Unix_Beard

Justin Thyme said:


> How does the herd maintain group think? By actively labeling heretics and ostracizing them. Rather than considering the merit of an argument, considering the label which may most effectively be associated with an idea so that it may be quickly disposed of.


Wow Thyme. You certainly are full of yourself. Could this herd or groupthink mentality that is completely in your own perception of events be due to that fact that no one here agrees with you and your assessments? Your explanation is that we are all wrong and the only points that have merit are your own. I've tried discussing topics with you in a respectful manner yet you don't bother to give credence to anyone's points but your own.

I've argued your simple "free" theory. Others have pointed out how the very foundation of your argument is moot since the DVR is not free. Yet you still insist that everyone else here are the babbling idiots.


----------



## gonzotek

The following is not specifically aimed at any one person:
This thread is supposed to be about encouraging TiVo to support Mac users as thoroughly as Windows users are currently supported, or at the least getting TiVo to make a firm, clear statement as to their intentions and timelines for continued Mac support. In what way is quibbling over Comcast's DVR's price and Justin's choice of words and apparent failure to see another point of view than his own an encouragement to TiVo to support Macs? When I was young, I was taught to keep my eye on the ball; no offence intended to him, but Justin and his individual views will have zero impact on TiVo's choices of where to allocate their engineering resources, so why spend time and energy on him if you don't like what he's saying? If his posts are really a problem for someone, the ignore feature works well enough. And moderators are always available to appeal to if anyone feels that isn't enough. Little personal jabs are not a great way to win someone over to your way of thinking, and more importantly, are in violation of the spirit of this forum, if not the actual rules. It's been getting out of hand over the last page or two and it wouldn't be surprising at all to me if a moderator stepped in to rebuke a few people. Remember, eye on the ball.

More on topic, Unix_Beard, I was wondering if you had read the article from my last post regarding the DRM implementation. I do agree with your points about other devices not having it and it being silly for TiVo to have implemented it, so you know I'm not preparing to attack you over your next post or anything. But nevertheless, they have implemented it and they worked with the content providers to assure them the implementation was 'good enough'. I'm interested in your take on TiVo's working with the content providers in comparison to Apple's. I realize Apple sells, and TiVo merely records, but ignoring the technical and logistical details, an end user in both cases gets a file, locked to an account, which cannot be played or manipulated except in company-approved devices(software and hardware) or via (illicit)decryption.


----------



## Unix_Beard

gonzotek said:


> More on topic, Unix_Beard, I was wondering if you had read the article from my last post regarding the DRM implementation. I do agree with your points about other devices not having it and it being silly for TiVo to have implemented it, so you know I'm not preparing to attack you over your next post or anything. But nevertheless, they have implemented it and they worked with the content providers to assure them the implementation was 'good enough'. I'm interested in your take on TiVo's working with the content providers in comparison to Apple's. I realize Apple sells, and TiVo merely records, but ignoring the technical and logistical details, an end user in both cases gets a file, locked to an account, which cannot be played or manipulated except in company-approved devices(software and hardware) or via (illicit)decryption.


Again, I'm not really sure where the analogy is. The article you posted spoke of Tivo developing DRM to accommodate giving recordings away. Apple's DRM is designed specifically so a user does not give away the content. The content is different as well. Most TV shows (except for pay channels), the performers are compensated by commercial endorsement where in the iTunes world, the artist is paid by royalties resulting from sales. Its is this fundamental difference in how the artists get paid where I find the most trouble with both company's DRM schemes. I might add that Apple supports both major platforms with their scheme.


----------



## tchwojko

Another difference is that Apple is the distributor for the publishers (record labels) of the content.

Tivo is a re-distributor for the distributors (Cable companies) of the content.

Both Tivo and Apple are content managers for the consumer of the content. Though iTunes lets you manage ALL your audio while the Tivo only allows you to manage the cable company's content.

I don't want to start another argument, so I'm not going to even try to analyze what that all actually means. I also don't think I'd get it close to correct anyway.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Good points. Tivo is a VCR. To me, there should be no restrictions whatsoever. Tivo seems to have gotten itself into this situation by coming up with this cockamamy idea of allowing a Tivo subscriber to send content to 9 other people? Why? Why open up this can of worms? Just allow the consumer to use the product for what it was intended - as a VCR.


----------



## akp

gonzotek said:


> The following is not specifically aimed at any one person:
> This thread is supposed to be about encouraging TiVo to support Mac users as thoroughly as Windows users are currently supported, or at the least getting TiVo to make a firm, clear statement as to their intentions and timelines for continued Mac support.


Along those lines...

I think it would be really great if there was full Mac support for TiVoToGo, along with any other TiVo <-> PC features that might be forthcoming. If I thought it would help, I would vote, or sign a petition, or whatever. But TiVo is in a tough position now and making a statement that they simply don't have the resources to work on this would not be good for PR (perhaps worse than silence, or potentially getting caught in a marketing lie).

My guess is, we wont hear anything more about it, until it suddenly appears, if it ever does.


----------



## gonzotek

> I might add that Apple supports both major platforms with their scheme.


Apple did eventually support both platforms, but Apple only supported MacOS at first, and Windows came about 6 months later. Just another example of a company following their own priorities. However, I'll say this for them, versus TiVo, they promised at the Mac iTMS launch a Windows release by year-end, and then delivered on it.


----------



## skanter

rog said:


> Fair enough. With the exception of the compatibility issues you mentioned with students/clients, your reasons were indeed related to niche products.
> 
> I've heard Dragon Naturally Speaking is pretty good software, but admittedly have never tried it..


It wasn't great till v.8, when it really fulfilled it's promise. Train it to your voice for 15 minutes, then talk naturally -- words appear onscreen, just as you said them.
And, it improves it's (98%) accuracy as you correct the small number of mistakes.



> For professional audio/video editing these days, there is no longer any argument that Windows beats the Mac. I'm not claiming the Mac beats Windows in this area either, just that you can perform either task (professionally) on either platform. Apple's acquisition of products like Emagic's Logic (now Logic Pro 7) and its continued work on Soundtrack and Finalcut are some good examples of pro audio/video software for the Mac... just to name a few.


I was a Logic user since the Atari version (C-Lab Notator), and was very unhappy when Emagic sold out to Apple, abandoning a few hundred thousand users, including ME.  I was a Newtek user since the Amiga, and stuck with them as they switched to Windows -- no choice there. It made sense for them to go to Windows, obviously, and the hardware/software is far too complex to be ported to Mac.



> But no more... IMHO, arguments about "compatibility" are mostly marketing diversions these days, unless you're in a really highly specialized profession, or in some other role that demands a platform-specific tool. With the full Microsoft Office suite available for Macs, and the ubiquity of other cross-platform file formats (pdf, txt, rtf, jpg, png, etc.), compatibility between Macs and PC's is a non-issue for almost all of the user base.


Most of my clients and students have PCs, and it's far easier to email docs, video files, sound files etc. without Mac to PC hassles. It -is- less of a hassle than 10 years ago, but there still are compatability issues.



> No regrets at all? What about when you see a shiny PowerBook running Tiger? Dashboard? Spotlight? If you had today's technology back when Amiga died, would you make the same decision?


Well, as I said, Macs are a bit cooler, but I'm continually putting together parts of PC systems and choosing MBs, sound cards, video cards. Macs are just not as flexible, and cheap. This is also why they have less problems -- uniformity.



> One word: Polish. That sums up how I feel about the iBook/Tiger combo.


Macs definitely have more polish and pazazz, and are easier to use for novices.
My 11-year old son had his choice, but still chose a PC -- smart and practical kid!


----------



## rog

:up:


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Unix_Beard said:


> Good points. Tivo is a VCR. To me, there should be no restrictions whatsoever. Tivo seems to have gotten itself into this situation by coming up with this cockamamy idea of allowing a Tivo subscriber to send content to 9 other people? Why? Why open up this can of worms? Just allow the consumer to use the product for what it was intended - as a VCR.


well TiVo has kind of forced MAc users into using the TiVo as a VCR then, it records - you watch - then eventually "the tape" gets recorded over.

also I would say that TV shows do get resold into syndication and now DVD sales as well. Mnay of the main actors on a show get paid alright but the real bucks come when they hit the ratings and number of shows to allow a good syndication deal. DVD sales are part of it as well and add signicificantly to revenue for someone (no idea who gets that slice of pie) 
so a TiVo without DRM could easily cut into those revenue sources.


----------



## rog

ZeoTiVo said:


> so a TiVo without DRM could easily cut into those revenue sources.


Maybe. It hasn't been shown definitively that p2p-type file-sharing of content does cut into the revenue of the industry. Many argue that it has the opposite effect.

But like many here have said before (including you Zeo), TiVo had little choice with the DRM situation.


----------



## dropd

Justin Thyme said:


> The fallacy of an ad hominem attack is that even if it succeeds and the character of the the opposing person is shattered in the community, the character of the speaker has no relevance for assessing the validity of the argument presented.


So.. a 'troll' label is an ad hominem when it is used to accurately describe the behavior of polluting a thread with off-topic comments and insults... but a 'zealot' label is not an ad hominem? I'm legitimately confused.



> Simply labelling and dismissing people and arguements with labels is no substitute for thinking or honest discussion.


See above re: 'zealot', 'fanatic', etc.



> If anyone read the explanation of straw man argumentation, then one would know that some misrepresentation of DropD's position had to have occured. Where was the misrepresentation?


This borders on genius... use a straw man to refute the observation that your primary rhetorical technique is the straw man. My comments about your straw man arguments were not referring to MY post (how could they, since you did not directly respond to anything I wrote here recently), but in response to your banter with rog and others up-thread. But nice try trying to redirect - it takes chutzpah, for sure.



> Pardon me to return to the theme of this thread. I would not want to interrupt this flooding of OT remarks that belong in a happy hour thread.


Again, the irony is rich. First, steer the thread wildly off-topic. Then, when people complain that you steered the thread off-topic and ask you to refrain, respond with flames and then as a follow-up whine that it's your critics that went OT.


----------



## Justin Thyme

gonzotek said:


> This thread is supposed to be about encouraging TiVo to support Mac users as thoroughly as Windows users are currently supported, or at the least getting TiVo to make a firm, clear statement as to their intentions and timelines for continued Mac support.





timg said:


> If they are going to bring TivoToGo to the Mac platform, tell me and give me a time frame. If they are not, then tell me that.


I think these are fair representations of the topic of this thread, and I don't think there is anyone who doesn't think it is a reasonable position to take. If folks want to start a Mac thread discussing Dragon voice recognition, the Happy Hour forum is here for that. I think even they will admit their notes were completely off topic.

Grievances are important to raise, and as time passes with no apparent movement, the level of frustration rises and the language, and negative sentiments expressed naturally rises. Most of these shrill accusations and critiicisms of Tivo in this thread I feel are grossly unfair.

I feel for Tivo personnel who are not in a position to defend their honor. Comparisons to prewar german treatment of ethnic groups, racial intolerance, "turd" polishing, the habitual denigration of anyone who posts an alternate point of view- especially after nearly one thousand notes of the same content- these types of incivility go way over the top.

I called for a sense of proportionality. It was specifically in the context calling someone on such an extreme statement that I made a passing comment that it is a shame what zealotry does to people. Others have sought to mischaracterize my passing comment as applying to every mac owner, or the legitimacy of the grievance that is the topic of this thread. It was neither as I have repeatedly stated.

I stand by my statements concerning zealotry. It has no place in this forum or this thread. If it is the purpose of the thread is to encourage Tivo to take a particular action, then it is correct and germaine to point out that the tactics of zealots and fanatics do not help achieve that goal.


----------



## Fofer

Justin Thyme, you must be a real hit at parties.


----------



## Justin Thyme

In my former professional life, I always wondered why would start people partying during my presentations. I chalked it up to end of conference festivities. Everyone would just start fortifying themselves with massive intakes of depressants or pain killers.


----------



## rog

Hmm... let me see if I can sum up your point of view...

Justin Thyme: "Quit using ad hominem attacks and get back on topic, you Mac Zealots! I could apply the description of a jihadist to you guys just as well. Now quit attacking my person and get back on topic!"



----------

Also, does anyone really truly think anyone at TiVo actually gives a damn about this thread? As if staying on topic with our guided complaints is going to make a difference? If you'll look, you'll see this has been an off topic playground for about 10 posters for months.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Hey- I wasn't picking on you. DropD was saying my note wasn't on topic and on the contrary I showed that it was, while the other previos comments were not. I didn't mean to single you out- yours just happen to be the immediate OT remarks prior.

Regarding your gross misrepresentation what I just posted:


Justin Thyme said:


> My comments were directed towards zealots. How could you possibly feel insulted.


Perhaps your response is way out proportion.


----------



## tonyf3

Enough Already!!! Useful information only please. I come back to see if there is anything new, interesting, maybe useful, and all I see is this page after page of useless bickering. Give us all a break, OK, Next!.... have a nice day.

"So say we all!" BSG-75


----------



## tchwojko

Useful information? I thought this was the "picayune semantic differences, attempts to get the last word, and trying to display more knowledge than one really has" thread.

But I suppose 90% of discussion threads on the net fit that bill...

With a lifetime subscription, I'll keep my Tivo until the drive dies (and maybe even replace the drive then), but I won't be buying any more unless Tivo shows me something that can tie into my Mac.

I have two more spots waiting for a recording device. I'd rather have something more polished than Elgato's offerings, but if ElGato is the best that's out there when I buy, then that's what I'll get.

I'm also waiting to see what happens with HD recorders, though that's curiosity, not necessity.


----------



## tonyf3

tchwojko said:


> Useful information? I thought this was the "picayune semantic differences, attempts to get the last word, and trying to display more knowledge than one really has" thread.
> 
> But I suppose 90% of discussion threads on the net fit that bill...
> 
> With a lifetime subscription, I'll keep my Tivo until the drive dies (and maybe even replace the drive then), but I won't be buying any more unless Tivo shows me something that can tie into my Mac.
> 
> I have two more spots waiting for a recording device. I'd rather have something more polished than Elgato's offerings, but if ElGato is the best that's out there when I buy, then that's what I'll get.
> 
> I'm also waiting to see what happens with HD recorders, though that's curiosity, not necessity.


Maybe a few have turned it into that recently, but that's not the way it started off.
Dennis W. and others have contributed a decent amount of useful info.

But onto the choices that are left. I agree I'll keep the two I have till the they die. I have an Amazon gift certificate and was thinking about the Humax with the built in burner. But only because it's a gift. On Elgato,.. looks great but tieing up my network and a Mac just to play my shows seems a little cumbersome. I'll save it as a last resort. My cable company Charter Comm. is offering their PVR with 2 tuners, season pass etc. fro $9.99 a month. Hard to pass up. Wish list: Mac mini PVR, with burning, with an attached dock for ipod Video. Quicktime H264 as the base codec will stream over 802.11b. Anytime now Steve.


----------



## tonyf3

Mac users rejoice

Courtesy davezatz


----------



## rog

Ha, I was just about to post the same exact link. 

I said it there, but I'll say it again: this is a big step in the right direction for TiVo, and I welcome it as very good news. :up:


----------



## Lon

tonyf3 said:


> Mac users rejoice
> 
> Courtesy davezatz


clipped from the job ad:


> * Experience with DRM or encryption/decryption software.


Yes, good news, indeed!


----------



## Fofer

clipped from the job ad:



> Be prepared to work in solitary confinement, in the basement, for months on end. Your work will be denied, questioned and lampooned on Internet discussion forums. The fruits of your labor may never be released. Salary not negotiable.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Jeez you guys are fast. I just saw the news on tuaw and wanted to spread the word.

http://www.tuaw.com/2005/08/04/mac-developers-want-to-work-for-tivo/


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## Fofer

But... but... Justin... it doesn't make business sense for TiVo to think about Mac support!


----------



## rog

oh christ, here we go again...


----------



## rog

by the way, how's the tivotool working out for you? 

i still haven't gotten an answer as to whether or not it's any easier to hack a 540 these days... so i haven't even downloaded tivotool yet.


----------



## Fofer

TiVoTool is working *fabulously!*


----------



## Justin Thyme

No no Rog you misunderstand where I am coming from.


Fofer said:


> But... but... Justin... it doesn't make business sense for TiVo to think about Mac support!


 It doesn't make short term business sense.

It is very welcome evidence that they are not entirely focused on the near term advertisement cash flow.

My model of the Rogers changes will have to be revised.

It other words, looks like I was full of cr*p.


----------



## tonyf3

Fofer said:


> clipped from the job ad:Be prepared to work in solitary confinement, in the basement, for months on end. Your work will be denied, questioned and lampooned on Internet discussion forums. The fruits of your labor may never be released. Salary not negotiable


 I thought that was the job description for most Mac development streams.


----------



## Quevar

I'm bummed...I was looking into TiVoTool and getting ready to hack my TiVo, but then I read that TiVo Series 2.5 can't be hacked (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=252343). That was very disappointing to me. I'd thought TiVo was open to the idea of making the TiVo platform more open, but apparently this is not the case. I'm stuck running them through a Windows machine to be able to watch them on my Mac.


----------



## rog

Quevar said:


> I'm bummed...I was looking into TiVoTool and getting ready to hack my TiVo, but then I read that TiVo Series 2.5 can't be hacked.


Not quite true. It can be hacked, but it requires a hardware modification. You'd have to either:

1) unsolder your PROM, reprogram it with an IC programmer, then resolder it (not an easy task, and most people don't have an IC programmer lying around).

2) buy a pre-programmed PROM and solder it in place of your existing PROM.

From there you would be able to run the kernel hacks needed for TiVoTool, TiVoWeb, etc.


----------



## Quevar

Yeah, I guess there is that route, but that takes a lot more skill than the other models. I'm not that confident that I could do it. With the software hacks, you can always make a backup, but if you mess up the soldering, then you are pretty much out a TiVo - not worth the risk to me. Maybe if I'd just gotten it and didn't have a lifetime membership on the unit, I'd try it. I guess I'll just have to wait for Mac TTG.


----------



## rog

I hear you, I just wanted to make sure you knew about the hardware-hack options.

I made the same decision too. It's not worth the risk.


----------



## tonyf3

Today I ordered from my cable company (Charter Communications) their 2 tuner PVR. I pay $6.00 a month for the regular Digital cable box. This was $9.99 and replaces it. Net difference $3.99. I thought the functionality might be very basic, I was surprised to find out it wasn't as basic as I thought. For $3.99 how can I go wrong. The 2 TiVo's I have now run me $14.00.

http://charter.com/services/dvr/dvr.aspx

I've had it. No communication, No effort. Now...,they hire a Mac developer? Great. Too little too late. The next nail in the TiVo coffin will be Apple's PVR and ipod Video.


----------



## tonyf3

http://www.lowendmac.com/scope/010502.html


----------



## chessplayer

Mac vs. PC is a personal choice (and choosing both, the compatibilist position, is another option). And it is not the subject of this thread.

Those who choose Windows should be respectful of those who choose Mac and vice versa -- there's no need for all the insults and calling people bigots.

And in turn, TiVo should be more respectful towards their Mac customers by communicating their intentions in an honest and straightforward manner, rather than stringing people along with re-assuring but vague statements.


----------



## tonyf3

chessplayer said:


> Mac vs. PC is a personal choice (and choosing both, the compatibilist position, is another option). And it is not the subject of this thread.
> 
> Those who choose Windows should be respectful of those who choose Mac and vice versa -- there's no need for all the insults and calling people bigots.
> 
> And in turn, TiVo should be more respectful towards their Mac customers by communicating their intentions in an honest and straightforward manner, rather than stringing people along with re-assuring but vague statements.


I agree.


----------



## tonyf3

From the front page of the tivo web site. 

"It's about time. And Choice. 
Only TiVo gives you the freedom to watch your favorite shows any time, anywhere." 

They never cease to amaze me. It is!...about time and choice. 

My choice, Apple! Timely support? No!
Watch Anywhere? No again!
Coming soon? No *#@ idea!
Why? The time and money to develop TTG for Mac. (9 months since the windows release)

They're claims are only half true, and arrogant considering they know all to well where they've come up short. So they just ignore it and promote what they haven't really delivered on to their paying subscribers. Lets piss off the users who are already pissed off. They're a small market share and nobody will really notice anyway.


----------



## Fofer

Dude, just hack the box already. TiVo's not coming out with official support anytime soon. May as well get it going yourself.


----------



## tonyf3

Fofer said:


> Dude, just hack the box already. TiVo's not coming out with official support anytime soon. May as well get it going yourself.


Ok, anyone have detailed intrux with pics for the soldering part.
The last time I soldered anything was on a Radio Shack 8 Track in 1976.


----------



## schalliol

Well, I thought I'd add myself to the list of people with Series 2 DVRs (just bought one yesterday) and Macs praying day after day, lighting candles, and whispering sweet nothings into the TiVo logo with the hope that it will help get TiVoToGo out for Mac. I wouldn't have bought the TiVo if I didn't think that there would be a release of TiVoToGo, but of course I am way out of the TiVo development loop...so this is really just faith that the people that brought us this innovative device will release this product for us. With the attempted humor in the job posting, all I have to say is that they can end this by providing a release date. This is something professional developers should be able to obtain with relative certainty, though people often do screw it up by not doing a full evaluation of what needs to be done.

Oh, and I recently referred 9 Mac users to TiVo, all connected to networks waiting...


----------



## ionblue

schalliol said:


> Well, I thought I'd add myself to the list of people with Series 2 DVRs (just bought one yesterday) and Macs praying day after day, lighting candles, and whispering sweet nothings into the TiVo logo with the hope that it will help get TiVoToGo out for Mac. I wouldn't have bought the TiVo if I didn't think that there would be a release of TiVoToGo, but of course I am way out of the TiVo development loop...so this is really just faith that the people that brought us this innovative device will release this product for us. With the attempted humor in the job posting, all I have to say is that they can end this by providing a release date. This is something professional developers should be able to obtain with relative certainty, though people often do screw it up by not doing a full evaluation of what needs to be done.
> 
> Oh, and I recently referred 9 Mac users to TiVo, all connected to networks waiting...


Don't hold your breath. I seriously doubt it will ever come. Why? If they had wanted to have Mac compatibility from the beginning of TTG, they would have chosen a DRM that was cross platform compatible!!!

Makes me hate my Tivo.......


----------



## Unix_Beard

ionblue said:


> Don't hold your breath. I seriously doubt it will ever come. Why? If they had wanted to have Mac compatibility from the beginning of TTG, they would have chosen a DRM that was cross platform compatible!!!
> 
> Makes me hate my Tivo.......


I agree. The Tivo employees that post go out of their way to placate upset customers. The silence on this issue and the inexplicable disregard for our concern is disheartening. 56,000 page views don't lie.


----------



## cwoody222

I think I started the August thread... who wants to start the "TiVo... it's been 9+ months, are you still working hard? Gee, you must be tired" thread?


----------



## timg

cwoody222 said:


> I think I started the August thread... who wants to start the "TiVo... it's been 9+ months, are you still working hard? Gee, you must be tired" thread?


Not me, I already did my share of "It's been X months, where's the Mac version" posts.


----------



## Fofer

Do you think anyone employed at TiVo, Inc. is even monitoring this thread?


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## cwoody222

No, they're too busy working hard at bring support to us because they value all of us as loyal TiVo customers


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## tonyf3

Fofer said:


> Do you think anyone employed at TiVo, Inc. is even monitoring this thread?


I'd like to think so. We're not going away until they deliver what they've promised, and what we're paying for.


----------



## Ren

I just found a tivo desktop icon on my ibook g4 in the system prefs and when I clicked it, it asked me what playlists and photo albums i wanted to publish to my tivo. After i did so - my mac showed up on my tivo and my files. Is this normal? excited! Ren


----------



## rog

Ren said:


> I just found a tivo desktop icon on my ibook g4 in the system prefs and when I clicked it, it asked me what playlists and photo albums i wanted to publish to my tivo. After i did so - my mac showed up on my tivo and my files. Is this normal? excited! Ren


Of course. What did you think TiVoDesktop was for when you installed it?


----------



## ionblue

rog said:


> Of course. What did you think TiVoDesktop was for when you installed it?


HEH! That's pretty damn funny.....

Thanks for the chuckle!


----------



## Ren

i was excited by it because for some reason it wasn't working when I first tried using it. I read all the horror stories about how mac just isn't supported and I gave up for a while. then i was searching my computer for funsies and i found that icon, i hadn't noticed where it was located before. it all seemed new to me. then low and behold it worked. maybe my connection was down the first time i had tried it.

Ren.


----------



## jushen1

Ren,

Ran across your posts on two Mac threads. I must admit that you are a funny guy!


----------



## cautionespn

AS a VERY long time TiVo customer (owned a series 1 and now own 2 series 2 boxes). I'm frankly appalled at the continued lack of Mac OS X support for TiVoToGo.


----------



## MacBrian

cautionespn said:


> AS a VERY long time TiVo customer (owned a series 1 and now own 2 series 2 boxes). I'm frankly appalled at the continued lack of Mac OS X support for TiVoToGo.


You know what? I've come to the conclusion that TiVoToGo just ain't worth it. I had a Series 2 40-hour machine that I sold and replaced with a refurbed 80-hour Humax DVD/TiVo. It has been worth every penny! When I want to archive a TV program, a few clicks of the remote and within 10-15 minutes I've got a DVD ready to label. You can't beat it...especially if you've experienced the failure that is TiVoToGo.

True, you can't edit out commercials on the DVD TiVos, but if you REALLY want to exorcise them from your personal video archive you can easily find software for either MAC or WINDOWS that will let you edit and re-author a Tivo-burned DVD. And doing it that way is FAR less painful and time-consuming than using TiVoToGo.

The TiVoToGo service just recently appeared on my Humax DVD S2 unit with a recent software upgrade. I tried it again and remembered why I made the switch. The transfer time from TiVo > Computer is SO slow...it usually takes well over 1 hour for a 1-hour show to transfer on my wired network. And then when it's done transferring, you have to use Sonic's MyDVD to author the DVD. Editing out commercials is so slow as to be laughable. MyDVD works well with regular video files, but the DRM-burdened overhead in the .TIVO files makes trying to edit a joke. And so far, MyDVD is the ONLY "sanctioned" tool for working with .TIVO files. All the other solutions require freeing the .TIVO file from the DRM wrapper, then using an authoring program to edit and burn the DVD. All this adds up to a bunch of extra chair-time in front of the computer. What's a 43-minute TV episode worth to you? 4+ hours of your time?

The best time-saving solution to accomplish the task of archiving TiVo shows is to just use a stand-alone DVD recorder and use the "Save to VCR" function to make the transfer. Sure, it's another analog > digital conversion, but honestly, you're NOT losing enough quality to be bothersome to any but the most critical of eyes. And if you're that critical, you're using the wrong tools and should be capturing straight from your program source to a DVD recorder to begin with...without a TiVo in the middle of things.

The time to create a pristine, all-digital copy of a recorded TiVo show is WAY out of proportion to the benefit IMHO. I've elected to NOT hack my trusted Series I TiVo to get video files off of it. Instead, I just ran an S-Video and RCA audio from the back of the S1 TiVo to the front input jacks of my Humax DVD/TiVo and transfer programs to DVD that way. The results are perfectly acceptable to me, and it doesn't take hours and hours of chair-time in front of the computer to do it. (As a matter of fact, I swear some shows actually end up looking BETTER on my 43" TV once transferred to DVD in this fashion than they do from the original S1 TiVo!)

TiVo's unparalleled fast-forward function works so well that editing out commercials from personal archive material is a waste of time. DVDs are cheap enough...so what if you can only get two hour-long episodes (with commercials) on a DVD instead of four episodes (sans commercials)? If you value your time at all, LIFE is more important than saving a $1 DVD for every four that you burn.

Besides, in 20 years, those commercials will have a certain level of nostalgia and therefore have their own merit in being worth the space they occupy on the DVD. I certainly enjoy seeing old nostalgic commercials for toys I had in my childhood. (Anyone remember the dangling spiders and klitchy jingle for Mattel's Creepy Crawlers from the 1960s? I HATED that commercial when I was a kid because it played all the time. Nowadays it just makes me smile. What a hoot it is!)

I'm no longer feeling so irked with TiVo for not providing Mac tools. Because of the DRM overhead, the whole concept is a bust (IMHO) and I think TiVo realizes that the reality of TiVoToGo has turned out to be far less than hoped for. It's a great marketing feature, but it's just impractical since it rarely saves time over doing an analog copy to a DVD recorder. Unfortunately, the angry Mac masses haven't realized what a disappointing failure TiVoToGo really is because they haven't the tools to be able to experience the disappointment themselves. I have both Macs and PCs and therefore have seen just how ugly the whole concept turned out to be with regard to the amount of time it takes to use it.

Just some thoughts to consider...be careful what you ask for. It may not be as good as you think once you get it! I, for one, would far rather see TiVo concentrate on other things, like letting me stream downloaded video podcasts to my TV screen like I can do with audio podcasts. I far prefer my home theatre and comfy furniture when watching TWiT or Diggnation or CommandN than sitting at my computer!

--MacBrian


----------



## Fofer

Thanks for your comments, TiVoBrian... I appreciate where you're coming from.

Ironically enough, as a Mac user, I'm able to really appreciate my hacks. Being able to extract my digital recordings, sans DRM, in under 3 minutes feels very nice! 

And I see no reason to feel "bad" about it either, since TiVo hasn't really given me a choice.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Part of the reason I want TTG on the Mac is because of editing. The only thing I would bother archiving are musical performances on TV shows. I would rarely archive a whole show or movie.

I did buy an external DVD-recorder. Maybe my aversion to manuals is costing me. Say I want to archive an hour show. As far as I can tell, I have to stand there and manually stop the DVD at the end of the show. That's kind of lame. I guess I could play with timers and whatnot but to tell the truth, Tivo and computers have made timers irrelevant.


----------



## tonyf3

ipod video downloaded shows don't have commercials. nice


----------



## bedelman

tonyf3 said:


> ipod video downloaded shows don't have commercials. nice


But, unlike music, most folks will only watch a television show a relatively small number of times. I'd like to see an option to have the shows at a lower price point with commercials.


----------



## Lon

bedelman said:


> But, unlike music, most folks will only watch a television show a relatively small number of times.


I don't mean to be contrary, but if that were the logic then why are DVDs of TV shows boxed and marketed?


----------



## mdscott

Lon said:


> I don't mean to be contrary, but if that were the logic then why are DVDs of TV shows boxed and marketed?


My guess in this area is that people tend to overestimate how often they will watch boxed sets. I certainly do.

mds


----------



## bedelman

Lon said:


> I don't mean to be contrary, but if that were the logic then why are DVDs of TV shows boxed and marketed?


But there's a large difference in the quality of the video (DVD versus iTunes Video) -- not to mention the bonus material.


----------



## Gunnyman

I <heart Tivotool>


----------



## Lon

bedelman said:


> But there's a large difference in the quality of the video (DVD versus iTunes Video) -- not to mention the bonus material.


Without a doubt, you are correct. But the fact remains that there is a market audience for TV show purchase. And pricing seems to reflect quality offering (1 season of LOST on iTMS $ < DVD box list $ -- granted the price difference is minimal at discount retailers.)

I suspect that we will see Apple's downloads improve in quality as when the audience can support larger downloads (i.e., when a greater percentage of people have multi-megabit/s download capabilities).

iTMS is also providing an alternative to VCR/DVR in ala-carte viewing for shows that (at least in my neighborhood) are not available via cable On-Demand service.


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## cwoody222

There may be a glimmer of hope (if you can actually believe TiVo reps & engineers after all the misinformation about Mac support this year) on this page:

http://thousandrobots.com/blog/archives/2005/10/a_conversation.php

The reason given for no ToGo support seems fishy to me. They say it's because of incompatible MPEG2 or something... but if that were the case wouldn't even TiVo shows pulled from hacked machines not play on Macs? And neither would ones that people strip the DRM off of?


----------



## bedelman

cwoody222 said:


> They say it's because of incompatible MPEG2 or something... but if that were the case wouldn't even TiVo shows pulled from hacked machines not play on Macs? And neither would ones that people strip the DRM off of?


In order to play MPEG2 files with QuickTime, it's necessary to purchase an additional $20 package from Apple for handling MPEG2. Even with that, I've heard that the filtered TTG files won't play properly. However, VLC can handle them with no problem and, apparently, without the QuickTime MPEG2 plug-in.


----------



## Fofer

cwoody222 said:


> The reason given for no ToGo support seems fishy to me. They say it's because of incompatible MPEG2 or something... but if that were the case wouldn't even TiVo shows pulled from hacked machines not play on Macs? And neither would ones that people strip the DRM off of?


The files I pull off my TiVo (Thanks, TiVoTool) play back beautifully in QuickTime Player, with the MPEG-2 plug-in. So I'm not sure what that dude is talking about. Surely it's a DRM issue.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Here is what ADM at thousandrobots posted about the conversation: 


> Mac support for TivoToGo. They are working on it right now, and are hoping to ship something in the first quarter of 2006. He was reluctant to give me even that vague date, because the ship date could slip and he didn't want to be held to that prediction yet. Fair enough.
> 
> I asked him what the specific problem was that needed to be solved for Mac support. He said that Apple's implementation of MPEG2 in Quicktime is incompatible with Tivo's implementation of MPEG2. He's said he's put in a ton of calls to Apple in the last year asking them to "fix" it, but he was told they "don't have time" and so have never gotten around to it. He said that his engineers thought they knew how to fix the issue, but Apple wasn't interested in committing the resources to it. Apple also told him they are re-engineering Quicktime and are planning to release a new version next year, and that Tivo should just wait for that. He seemed genuinely frustrated by the whole thing. I don't know much about video codecs, but later I was wondering whether Tivo couldn't just offer some other MPEG2 codec with Tivo Desktop that would enable TivoToGo. Would that be possible? Sorry if that's a stupid question.
> 
> Despite the obstacle of the MPEG2 incompatibilities, he said I would be very happy with the Mac version of Tivo Desktop/TivoToGo that they are working on.
> 
> Tivo Desktop on Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger). Officially speaking, Tivo Desktop does not run on Tiger. The website clearly states this. But I told him the latest update to the Mac OS, 10.4.2, will work with Tivo Desktop and allow you to serve music and photos to your Tivo from your Mac. The Tivo Desktop installer will give you an error at the end of the installation process, but it will actually work. Apparently, this was not the case with 10.4 and 10.4.1, due to what he said was a problem with Rendezvous/Bonjour. He seemed dimly aware of the 10.4.2 situation, like I was reminding him of something he had learned in passing. I suggested to him that maybe Tivo's website could be updated to reflect that it works in 10.4.2. He emailed himself from his Treo(?) to remind him to get the website changed. It seems likely that the fact that the installer gives you an error despite a successful installation might ultimately dissuade him from doing this, but hopefully they will find a way to clearly communicate the reality of the situation to their users who (like me) kept checking the site to see whether they have released a Tiger-compatible version yet.


Matt at PVRBlog linked to him so maybe the information is for real, but I am confused about Tivo policy. If this information is being given to people at trade shows, why is it so hard to give it to the Tivo enthusiast sites- even if it is second hand through a third party so they have plausible deniability?


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

cwoody222 said:


> The reason given for no ToGo support seems fishy to me. They say it's because of incompatible MPEG2 or something... but if that were the case wouldn't even TiVo shows pulled from hacked machines not play on Macs? And neither would ones that people strip the DRM off of?


I've had the Apple MPEG-2 QuickTime components since they were released, and there is plenty of MPEG-2 out there that they simply don't play (sometimes they play incorrectly, sometimes not at all.) In every case, MPlayer or VLC have played them perfectly. In most cases, it seems to be the way the compressed data is packed into streams that causes the components to give up the ghost, which to me implies that either the import components or the media handler components are wonky (Apple's components make up more than just a codec.) There are a lot of tools out there that do things like mux MPEG2 that have "make QuickTime compatible" checkboxes in their UIs.

Having written far too much QuickTime code, I'd take a wild-but-educated guess that the stumbling block is in programmatically converting TiVo's MPEG, post-decryption, into something Apple's components can handle (Apple's MPEG-1 implementation is barely documented, and MPEG-2 not at all.) I can see pretty easily how that gets distilled to "incompatible MPEG" in marketing-speak.

If they want to be good Mac citizens and play in the iApps, they'd need to provide an MPEG2 codec that runs under QuickTime, if they want to bypass Apple's MPEG codecs. Ignoring the licensing fees that that implies, that's a much taller order technically than shoehorning their DRM implementation under an existing MPEG component. TiVo's never implemented an MPEG codec before, either, at least not one they've ever shipped - the hardware has always used off-the-shelf parts, and the Wintel side relies on a supported DirectShow MPEG codec being installed.


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## Justin Thyme

Dennis- Is there any target date when this new version of quicktime will be out? Are there any Alphas or beta releases out yet?

Will ISVs like Tivo be able to write out Fairplay protected files then if that is not possible now?


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Justin Thyme said:


> Dennis- Is there any target date when this new version of quicktime will be out? Are there any Alphas or beta releases out yet?
> 
> Will ISVs like Tivo be able to write out Fairplay protected files then if that is not possible now?


Not sure about a release date for a new QuickTime version -- I've changed jobs recently, and while I'm still an Apple developer with access to the standard suite of prerelease software, I'm no longer privy to QuickTime seeds (of course, I couldn't tell you about any extant seeds or potential release dates even if I were privy to them, what with NDAs and all.)

That said, I don't see Fairplay getting more open to 3rd party developers. I suppose one could take the existence of a non-Apple product that can play ITMS AAC music (the Motorola ROKR) as a good sign, but I don't see this as a real shift in Apple's strategy -- I think they see it as just another "port" of iTunes. That's not terribly important, though -- for TTG, TiVo doesn't need Fairplay, unless they have a desire to play ITMS videos on the TiVo itself. That has other issues, not the least of which being that the codec the ITMS videos are encoded in isn't supported on the TiVo itself. I certainly don't see a need for TiVo to encrypt with Fairplay.


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## Justin Thyme

Right. Windows DRM was unnecessary to do TTG or play .Tivo files on laptops or MCE's. Tivo's DRM worked just fine. 

But Fairplay is necessary if the .tivo file is going anywhere else legitimately- eg. to an iPod, or going the other direction- transcoding a fairplay video from iTunes store to GoBack to Tivo. For video fluidity, you need ISV access to the system supported DRM. 

Content owner demand for system supported DRM is why can't just write off iTunes/ Fairplay and standardizes on some cross platform DRM like RealNetworks' Harmony.

It's true protections are really a joke on Windows now, but the infrastructure is there to lock it down in Vista, or at least make a more serious semblence of trying to maintain security. If there is no system support for DRM, it will be pretty darn easy to crack the chain of trust between modules. That's why I think Apple will go there too with Fairplay. Which means Tivo is locked out of access to iTunes as well precluded from using a competitor DRM on the Mac platform if things keep going the direction they are going.


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## cwoody222

Well, Dennis obviously knows a LOT more about this than I do.

So, the theory is that it's not DRM that's the problem it's post-DRM QuickTimes files? (while pre-DRM files we know play just fine, as do un-DRM'ed files)


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## Dennis Wilkinson

Justin Thyme said:


> But Fairplay is necessary if the .tivo file is going anywhere else legitimately- eg. to an iPod, or going the other direction- transcoding a fairplay video from iTunes store to GoBack to Tivo. For video fluidity, you need ISV access to the system supported DRM.


Possibly. The "iTunes Store video to GoBack" case is the one I described -- no way around Fairplay there. But I don't see it absolutely blocking out the TTG->iPod path, which is certainly no worse for TiVo than the TTG->DVD path. Guess it depends on the mood of the attorneys that day. 



cwoody222 said:


> So, the theory is that it's not DRM that's the problem it's post-DRM QuickTimes files? (while pre-DRM files we know play just fine, as do un-DRM'ed files)


Not all pre-DRM MPEG2 files play fine, nor do all un-DRM'ed files. It wouldn't be about _files_, strictly, but programmatically feeding the data to Apple's MPEG2 components in such a way that everyone plays nicely together.


----------



## Gunnyman

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> I've had the Apple MPEG-2 QuickTime components since they were released, and there is plenty of MPEG-2 out there that they simply don't play (sometimes they play incorrectly, sometimes not at all.) In every case, MPlayer or VLC have played them perfectly. In most cases, it seems to be the way the compressed data is packed into streams that causes the components to give up the ghost, which to me implies that either the import components or the media handler components are wonky (Apple's components make up more than just a codec.) There are a lot of tools out there that do things like mux MPEG2 that have "make QuickTime compatible" checkboxes in their UIs.
> 
> Having written far too much QuickTime code, I'd take a wild-but-educated guess that the stumbling block is in programmatically converting TiVo's MPEG, post-decryption, into something Apple's components can handle (Apple's MPEG-1 implementation is barely documented, and MPEG-2 not at all.) I can see pretty easily how that gets distilled to "incompatible MPEG" in marketing-speak.
> 
> If they want to be good Mac citizens and play in the iApps, they'd need to provide an MPEG2 codec that runs under QuickTime, if they want to bypass Apple's MPEG codecs. Ignoring the licensing fees that that implies, that's a much taller order technically than shoehorning their DRM implementation under an existing MPEG component. TiVo's never implemented an MPEG codec before, either, at least not one they've ever shipped - the hardware has always used off-the-shelf parts, and the Wintel side relies on a supported DirectShow MPEG codec being installed.


Totally agree with Dennis here.
I use VLC to play back Tivo created MPEGS. QT is choppy most of the time.


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## Justin Thyme

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> But I don't see it absolutely blocking out the TTG->iPod path, which is certainly no worse for TiVo than the TTG->DVD path. Guess it depends on the mood of the attorneys that day.


Absolutely correct. This is totally up to the content owners what they contractually demand of content distributors, or request of platform vendors via the MPAA's army of lawyers.

What I am very curious about is whether the content dudes will accept a cross platform DRM like Real's Harmony. Because I don't think the trivial end runs around DRM (like writing out to media then ripping back) are going to be around that much longer. It's just too easy to watermark this stuff and force all drivers to choke on protected content. Once Vista gets that sort of scheme working, content owners are going to forcefully request that DVR vendors only export to formats that can guarantee a similar level of protection.

But DRM can become a platform weapon to lock in customers- Such games by Apple and Microsoft are anticompetitive and should be prohibited. Oh yeah, I can see Microsoft maybe would provide their DRM on Macs, but I am not filled with warm fuzzy feelings about their motives, so I hope will see something viable from Real or someone else.


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## krez

I understand the business side of things-- more pc users than mac users-- but cmon, TiVo should see a kindred spirit in Apple. They both provide superior products, and yet they get sidelined by inferior competitors who are willing to go for the bottom dollar. Imagine a TiVo/Apple buyout?!


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## EwanG

Justin Thyme said:


> Oh yeah, I can see Microsoft maybe would provide their DRM on Macs, but I am not filled with warm fuzzy feelings about their motives, so I hope will see something viable from Real or someone else.


You don't think this had anything to do with Microsoft's settlement with Real?

Just saying...


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## Justin Thyme

You can bet that Gates is doing whatever he can to see that there is no repeat in video what Apple did with Music. He doesn't have an analog of iTunes so that's why he has gone with Rhapsody. The rumors sites say MS's group tasked with competing with iTunes/Rhapsody has stopped signing up content folks. So it looks like everything will be focused on RealNetworks for Content, probably MS for the low level technology. (Real needs it- their encoder runs at least 2 times slower than either MS's or Divx's.)

Personally, I think Apple is going to cream him again, but I think we'll benefit from the battle because there will be some good deals and content we will likely be able to play on our Tivo's coming from Rhapsody.

If Apple continues its policy with FairPlay, I have no doubt there is going to be touching group hug between Rogers, Glaser and Gates on the CES stage.

Back to more terrestrial matters- I noticed WinAvi inputs .Tivos and writes out quicktime files. [Edit- This appears to be wrong. The WinAVI site states it does Quicktime conversion, and lists MOV as one of the supported formats, but apparently only as an input format. Never mind. Too bad- this might have been a one stop path from Tivo to video iPod. No dice.]]


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## tonyf3

bedelman said:


> But, unlike music, most folks will only watch a television show a relatively small number of times. I'd like to see an option to have the shows at a lower price point with commercials.


Good point Bed. How about .99 with commercials. I'd pay 2.99 without if I could download directly to my TiVo, and Transfer to the Video ipod. However, we need more content.
I'm hoping most Broadcast and cable Networks follow ABC and add not just their hit shows, but all of them. NBC is next I think. They're reportedly in talks. Offering previous seasons is great too.

Now you could say, hey we don't pay to play now. But I'll pay for it the next day with: No commercials, Higher Quality than 320x240, transfer seemlessly to my TiVo,laptop or video ipod, and limited DVD burn. Yeah, I'd pay for that. No subscription fees either it's ala cart. Just let me watch what I want, where I want, and when I want. That's what our friends at TiVo promise but don't quite deliver. But I'm still waiting, it's October of 2005 right. psssst. Mac mini pvr with Frontrow.


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## ChofuHS

That's why I dumped Mac. I love the machines, but about twelve years ago when Windows got at least reasonable, I just had to dump Mac. I couldn't do most of my banking, certain online games, poker online, etc.., with my Mac and the emulator (sp>) came out, it just didn't cut the cheese. I've heard their is an emulator now that allows Mac to be used on Windows programs. If I knew it really worked great, I'd switch back on my next computer purchase. Mac sucks when you can't do everything Windows does, even though Mac is THE best. Just another hurdle for Mac people to jump, which just is too annoying.


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## cwoody222

FYI: The ONLY thing I cannot do right now with my Mac is play files from my TiVo. No website I try to visit, no online service I try to use, no program I want, doesn't work on my Mac.

I'm a 'middle of the road' user. Not some super power use making tons of movies and playing online gaming 7 hours a day... but I do more than just exchange emails and IM's with my friends too.

The ONLY reason currently I'd even consider a Windows box is stupid TiVo's lack of Mac support. That's it. (and even that is no where near enough to get me to switch back to PC... not even close)


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## tonyf3

ChofuHS said:


> That's why I dumped Mac. I love the machines, but about twelve years ago when Windows got at least reasonable, I just had to dump Mac. I couldn't do most of my banking, certain online games, poker online, etc.., with my Mac and the emulator (sp>) came out, it just didn't cut the cheese. I've heard their is an emulator now that allows Mac to be used on Windows programs. If I knew it really worked great, I'd switch back on my next computer purchase. Mac sucks when you can't do everything Windows does, even though Mac is THE best. Just another hurdle for Mac people to jump, which just is too annoying.


In 1985 on a Mac 512K I started doing online Banking with Citibank. It was called Direct Access, it continues to this day. Later on, on my G4 I played online games like Unreal Tournament & Quake 3 Arena. A little more immersive than Poker. The emulator you mentioned is called Virtual PC and is now on version 7 and runs XP really well. You may be interested to know Office has been out on Mac for years and is actually better on Mac. Oh, and did I mention no VIRUSES!. Forgive me, but did you just come out of a bunker after 12 years? (there is nothing reasonable about owning a PC, they're just annoying boxes) There is ton of things a Mac does right out of the box that Windows just can't do, and it's killing Bill Gates. Visit an Apple Retail store and then tell us what you think.


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## Justin Thyme

Actually, in point of fact, both Excel and GUI Word first appeared on the Mac.

Tony, what did you think about the comments about non standard support of mpeg2 in quicktime? Why can't quicktime just play vanilla mpeg2 files? Why should companies have to reencode their mpeg2 streams so they are quicktime compatible?

System support for multimedia seems to come up a little short as far as generic multimedia data types are concerned.

Hopefully the rumored future release of quicktime will provide the necessary mpeg2 support and Tivo files will then play ok on the mac.

As far as playing iTunes Video on Tivo, I don't think Jobs is interested in driving hardware sales that don't have an Apple logo on them. It is highly doubtful he will license Fairplay because locks customers into the apple product line. It's a hardball tactic, but so long as it isn't illegal I guess you can't blame them. It's a hardball game. But at what point does it become an anti competitive tactic of a vertical monopolist?

I think the line is crossed when you use one unrelated product category to leverage another. Video sales are being used, via Fairplay DRM to lock users into buying hardware that has the same DRM.

Or am I mistaken? Can you download video from iTunes that will play on a non Apple device without breaking the DRM?


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## bostlaw

ChofuHS said:


> That's why I dumped Mac. I love the machines, but about twelve years ago when Windows got at least reasonable, I just had to dump Mac. I couldn't do most of my banking, certain online games, poker online, etc.., with my Mac and the emulator (sp>) came out, it just didn't cut the cheese. I've heard their is an emulator now that allows Mac to be used on Windows programs. If I knew it really worked great, I'd switch back on my next computer purchase. Mac sucks when you can't do everything Windows does, even though Mac is THE best. Just another hurdle for Mac people to jump, which just is too annoying.


After 20 some odd years using PCs, I switched to Mac...Because my law firm uses PCs exclusively (and I work a lot remotely from the house), I was nervous about the switch...and, I purchased Virtual PC to be able to run windows applications...Virtual PC runs just fine...but I find that I don't use it very often...Ain't nuthin' that I can't do on the Mac....and IMHO, I think the Microsoft Office suite is better on the Mac than it is on the PC... Can't watch me no TiVo on my iMac, but I ain't be switching back to the dark side anytime soon...


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## jwedding

I'm out. Called in and cancelled my service. 

The lack of HDTV and Mac support along with the improved TV Guide Software on the Comcast/Moto 6412 boxes just did it for me.

Thank you all for the great tips, support and laughs over the past couple of years.


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## Fofer

jwedding said:


> I'm out. Called in and cancelled my service.
> 
> The lack of HDTV and Mac support along with the improved TV Guide Software on the Comcast/Moto 6412 boxes just did it for me.
> 
> Thank you all for the great tips, support and laughs over the past couple of years.




At least stick around for your 100 post YAMM?

There's lots of fun to be had in the Happy Hour forum.

P.S. What kind of Mac support is on the Comcast/Moto 6412 box?


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## jwedding

There isn't any, but at least I'm not paying 12.95 for it. Even 6.95 seems silly for no real functionality. 

Oh, and now I've hit the century mark! Woohoo!


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## Dennis Wilkinson

Fofer said:


> P.S. What kind of Mac support is on the Comcast/Moto 6412 box?


Video from non-encrypted channels (basic+extended analog, and the HD channels available over-the-air, usually) can be transferred over the Firewire connection to a Macintosh. This goes for recorded shows as well, but they must be playing to be transferred, tying up the box for the duration. There are tools to do this, which at last look weren't very pretty or usable by non-techies, and Apple's MPEG components occasionally can't play them (although MPlayer and VLC can.)

Not really Mac specific, and the level of "support" one would get from Comcast or Motorola on this would be, oh, about zero , but it is there (and required to be there by the FCC.)

See this thread and/or this thread over at AVS Forum for more info, if you want it.


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## amgqmp1

OK, just to get up-to-speed on this...it's the end of October 2005 and TiVo is still yet to release support for Mac OS X?

If my inquisitive statement above is correct...I'm literally speechless. After that I think I'd have only profane things to say...and my newest Mac is a PowerMac 7100!


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## cwoody222

TiVo Desktop 1.9 (which was the pre-ToGo version) works with Tiger 10.2.x It didn't work with previous versions. But the installer fails - but it still works. But TiVo.com still hasn't updated with the new info.

TiVo has done absolutely nothing w/ ToGo for Mac since it came out for Windows in Jan/Feb.


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## Fofer

cwoody222 said:


> TiVo Desktop 1.9 (which was the pre-ToGo version) works with Tiger 10.2.x


I think you mean it works with Tiger 10.4.1, 10.4.2 (and later...?)


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## cwoody222

I meant Tiger 10.4.2. Oops.

But does it work with 10.4.1 too? I'm not sure, I'm still on 10.3.9.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

cwoody222 said:


> But does it work with 10.4.1 too? I'm not sure, I'm still on 10.3.9.


Not without help. It fails to register the service with Bonjour (Rendezvous), so your TiVo can't find it.


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## tonyf3

Justin Thyme said:


> Actually, in point of fact, both Excel and GUI Word first appeared on the Mac.
> 
> Tony, what did you think about the comments about non standard support of mpeg2 in quicktime? Why can't quicktime just play vanilla mpeg2 files? Why should companies have to reencode their mpeg2 streams so they are quicktime compatible?
> 
> System support for multimedia seems to come up a little short as far as generic multimedia data types are concerned.
> 
> Hopefully the rumored future release of quicktime will provide the necessary mpeg2 support and Tivo files will then play ok on the mac.
> 
> As far as playing iTunes Video on Tivo, I don't think Jobs is interested in driving hardware sales that don't have an Apple logo on them. It is highly doubtful he will license Fairplay because locks customers into the apple product line. It's a hardball tactic, but so long as it isn't illegal I guess you can't blame them. It's a hardball game. But at what point does it become an anti competitive tactic of a vertical monopolist?
> 
> I think the line is crossed when you use one unrelated product category to leverage another. Video sales are being used, via Fairplay DRM to lock users into buying hardware that has the same DRM.
> 
> Or am I mistaken? Can you download video from iTunes that will play on a non Apple device without breaking the DRM?


Justin,
Lots of insightful info over your last few posts, thanks. I do think that Quicktime should be able to play vanilla mpeg2. I was hoping a while back (during the Apple TiVo purchase rumors) that Jobs would just buy TiVo and fix all the areas that TiVo was lacking in related to Mac. But it seems he's had other ideas. The AAC DRM still prevents you from playing ITMS purchased music through the TiVo. I've been tempted to just get an Airport Express with the cable kit and plug it into my Home Theater and call it a day, DRM solved. I'm pretty sure downloaded itms videos won't play on non Apple devices. As far as locking users into hardware via DRM. I think it was a move Apple had to make in order to keep the ipod viable into the future. The ARCOS player already does video. But it's really about making the content providers happy so they provide content for your hardware plattform.


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## rworne

Quicktime does support MPEG-2 playback. You need to buy the additional codec from the Apple store - it works in QT 6.0 and 7.0. It's $20 IIRC. If not, MplayerOSX and VLC play MPEG-2 nicely and freely.


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## bedelman

rworne said:


> Quicktime does support MPEG-2 playback. You need to buy the additional codec from the Apple store - it works in QT 6.0 and 7.0. It's $20 IIRC.


Yes, that's right -- but attempting to play a MPEG-2 derived from a TiVoToGo file doesn't play properly with the MPEG-2 Quicktime kit. It does play correctly with VLC though.

Something is different with either the QuickTime MPEG-2 kit or the MPEG-2 that's derived from a TiVoToGo file.


----------



## Fofer

bedelman said:


> Yes, that's right -- but attempting to play a MPEG-2 derived from a TiVoToGo file doesn't play properly with the MPEG-2 Quicktime kit. It does play correctly with VLC though.


On a Mac? Or a PC? Or both?

I ask because I have no direct experience with TiVoToGo.

But the MPEG-2 files that I derive from my DirecTiVo using <ahem> "alternate means" play juuuusssttt fine in QuickTime Player on my PowerBook, using the MPEG-2 Quicktime kit.

Hey, TiVo: when the hacking community, in it's free time, is able to deliver a more seamless, customer-pleasing solution that your own engineers do, I think it's time to start reevaluating your resources.


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## Justin Thyme

Tony, I agree. It's a business and they have to do what's in their best interest.

Despite the MO I have acquired on this thread, I sincerely am rooting for Apple to come out with an affordable and innovative DVR and compete in the third party DVR space. And I think it would be mistake to expect a me-too DVR list of features. There is a huge amount of very cool stuff that can be done with these devices that has not made it to the mainstream. I'll buy an Apple if it is less than $1200, though in all likelihood Jobs will not put a hardware stake in the ground until he can get enough compelling IPTV content that is at least SD quality lined up for iTunes store. Going too early can trap him with hardware legacy issues. Jobs is good at hitting waves just in time, so I am willing to wait. 

I always thought the idea of Jobs buying Tivo was unlikely. Not his style and beside he doesn't need to buy Tivo because he can build share fast and has his own innovative engineering team- It's an advantage sure, but I don't see him paying a premium price against other bidders. The patent question is key but that could take years to resolve. It's much better for the industry if the court rules its patents must be respected, but does not rule that everyone building a DVR must pay Tivo a royalty. If that happens then very big guns will show up at the bidding table (Microsoft, Carriers, Content industry), and you can kiss Tivo as we know it goodbye. The competition will stagnate for years while the bidding winner squeezes consumers for as much as it can get using such patent leverage. Few people think that their patent portfolio are as overreaching as that, but the courts can always make surprizing rulings. 

In any case, I personally doubt I will prefer the Apple DVR over the Tivo, but I am willing to give it a shot if it ever does show up.


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## cwoody222

Fofer said:


> Hey, TiVo: when the hacking community, in it's free time, is able to deliver a more seamless, customer-pleasing solution that your own engineers do, I think it's time to start reevaluating your resources.


Um, they are reevaluating their resources!

Remember just a few months ago they posted a whole 'help wanted' ad for a Mac developer! One whole job! Over 6 months after Windows got TiVo ToGo. (and years after the hackers were able to do it)

Obviously they're right on top of things.


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## Justin Thyme

Fofer said:


> ...But the MPEG-2 files that I derive from my DirecTiVo using <ahem> "alternate means" play juuuusssttt fine in QuickTime Player on my PowerBook, using the MPEG-2 Quicktime kit.
> 
> Hey, TiVo: when the hacking community, in it's free time, is able to deliver a more seamless, customer-pleasing solution that your own engineers do, I think it's time to start reevaluating your resources.


 Let me see if I understand your proposal.

1) Tivo writes a program that produces an mpeg file.
2) User buys Mpeg2 quicktime kit.
3) User plays mpeg file in Quicktime.

Is that the suggestion you were describing?


----------



## Fofer

Justin Thyme said:


> Let me see if I understand your proposal.
> 
> 1) Tivo writes a program that produces an mpeg file.
> 2) User buys Mpeg2 quicktime kit.
> 3) User plays mpeg file in Quicktime.
> 
> Is that the suggestion you were describing?


No, not necessarily.

1) TiVo writes a program that produces an video file (mpeg? sure, I don't care.) Wrap in it crappy DRM for all I care.
2) TiVo writes a program that plays back said file.
3) User plays file with TiVo's player. (If VLC can do it without the Mpeg2 quicktime kit, then why can't TiVo's player?)


----------



## Justin Thyme

Not Necessarily? Is there even an infinitessimal possibility they could do that scenario of writing out a plain vanilla mpeg file?

So the only proposal you have put forth is that Tivo should write it's own player because Apple won't write a player that supports MPEG2 streams. Microsloth could do it, but Apple couldn't. It must be easy to do. 

Apple must have been working real hard on MPEG2 rendering for the last decade. 

Let's see. And how do we export to other devices? Since there are no system services supporting Mpeg2 and by extention our DRM'd .Tivo files, the next requirement would be that Tivo produce an export application to match the feature on Windows where you can export .tivo files to Media players like Creative Zen. It shouldn't be that hard to synchronize to phones, PDA's and Media players with widely differing resolutions and maximum bitrates. 

Am I getting the drift of your suggestion?


----------



## Fofer

Justin Thyme said:


> Am I getting the drift of your suggestion?


I guess I'm just not grokking why my hacked TiVo, along with TiVoTool, can give me MPEG-2 video that plays brilliantly on my PowerBook... but TiVo can't offer the same feature officially to their Mac customers.

I can play the video in the free, open-source VLC, or I can play it in QT Player if I add the MPEG-2 plugin.

I'm not a programmer. Please explain it to me like I'm a 10 year old.


----------



## Justin Thyme

I think you understand.

What you are playing in VLC or Quicktime is a standard Mpeg file.

If Tivo built an application that produced such an Mpeg file in your mac's folder, everything would work just as you say. People would be free to use VLC, or Quicktime with the Mpeg2 plugin or whatever. 

And Tivo would be immediately bankrupted by lawsuits from MPAA.

Hackers can do this strategy because MPAA isn't going after them (for now).


----------



## dropd

Justin Thyme said:


> And Tivo would be immediately bankrupted by lawsuits from MPAA.


Those lawsuits would verge on racketeering, I think.

Here's why: moving an mpeg from your tivo to your mac is not breaking the law. It's not a copyright violation. It's fair use. It's the equivalent of playing back a vhs cassette on a different vcr within your home. Copyright violation comes when you make copies of that mpeg (or vhs cassette, etc) and distribute them to others. Nobody on this board is talking about wanting to do that.

The problem is that the public has now conflated piracy with fair use, and consumers lose. The reason tivo doesn't just go ahead and do this isn't because they don't think they'd win on the merits, it's because the "content" industry has deeper pockets and is willing to intimidate technology companies into compliance.

Also, a minor quibble - they wouldn't be "immediately" bankrupted. It would take awhile. And maybe it takes a company like tivo to be willing to fight the battle and take it on the chin so the industry at large wins. Oh well. Replay sort of tried, but they did it stupidly. They also had features that specifically allowed random sharing between strangers over the internet. Oops. Tivo already restricts show-sharing to a subnet.


----------



## cwoody222

dropd said:


> Those lawsuits would verge on racketeering, I think.
> 
> Here's why: moving an mpeg from your tivo to your mac is not breaking the law. It's not a copyright violation. It's fair use. It's the equivalent of playing back a vhs cassette on a different vcr within your home. Copyright violation comes when you make copies of that mpeg (or vhs cassette, etc) and distribute them to others. Nobody on this board is talking about wanting to do that.


Eh... to play a file on your mac requires we make a digital (ie: exact) copy of it so it would exist on the mac and on the TiVo.

That's what the MPAA lawyers would have a problem with.


----------



## dropd

cwoody222 said:


> Eh... to play a file on your mac requires we make a digital (ie: exact) copy of it so it would exist on the mac and on the TiVo.
> 
> That's what the MPAA lawyers would have a problem with.


Explain how that's different from ripping a cd that you own to put on your ipod...


----------



## Justin Thyme

First off, the studios hide behind the faceless MPAA organization that does it's dirty work. Let's be clear about who these chaps with the jackboots are. Its Bugs Bunny (Warner) and Mickey Mouse (Disney), and all the other studios who make our beloved movies and can't-miss-a-single-episode serials.



dropd said:


> ...moving an mpeg from your tivo to your mac is not breaking the law. It's not a copyright violation. It's fair use. It's the equivalent of playing back a vhs cassette on a different vcr within your home. Copyright violation comes when you make copies of that mpeg (or vhs cassette, etc) and distribute them to others. Nobody on this board is talking about wanting to do that.


I am stunned the day has come, but I am in total agreement with you. I'll go further. Tivo and other companies are being made responsible for implementing security far in excess of what they require the distributors or other CE devices do. I can record to a dvd recorder and immediately rip that MPeg2 to hard drive. The content industry is not even requiring distributors to use CGMS flags on non broadcast content like discovery channel. Turning it on requires an $89 box, for cripesake. So if they aren't even bothering to put DRM on that, then why should Tivo be required to put thousands of man hours into DRM development?

I don't know if I would go to the "racketering" hyperbole, but the MPAA's activities are exceptionally unfair to technology innovators, and damage our nation's ability to compete effectively with CE devices in the world marketplace. Curbs must be placed on these excessive and futile tactics.

And ultimately they are ridiculous maneuvers. It is trivial for any hobbyist to work around the current schemes, and for more complicated schemes, there will always be heavyweights who don their masks and write up detailed step by step methods to bypass protection schemes that weekend hobbyists can take and use.

Fofer has benefitted from such an infrastructure of those who would dare modify the products they paid for. Technically, the hackers and disributors of the Mods that turn off scrambling in the Tivo are very likely in violation of the digital millenium act and could all be prosecuted. They are taking huge risks of their livelihood. What they get in exchange are often whining condescending complaints about this or that missing feature. Whatever.

It's a sucky way to do things on the Mac, but although no one is talking about sharing files on the net, there have been 50 million downloads of Bittorrent since 2003, and chances are quite a few of those users have Tivos and are reading this very thread. So like it or not, Tivo simply cannot drop an unprotected mpeg into a mac folder.

If they could write an DRM'd Mpeg format that Quicktime reads, that would be second best to having documented support for how one could write a .Tivo file format plug-in that provides an Mpeg2 compliant stream. Neither of those two options are available, Apple won't let third parties like Real Networks or anybody else use FairPlay. I expect that will have to change unless Apple intends to control all possible commercial video data sources on the Mac. On the other hand, I could be wrong and that is precisely Steve's intention. After all, content has made Apple buckets of cash. Why should Apple make it easily to steal away any of those revenue streams?


----------



## cwoody222

dropd said:


> Explain how that's different from ripping a cd that you own to put on your ipod...


A very good point.

I guess one difference could be that I paid for my CD so I 'own' the music (do I? where do my rights end?). But the broadcast airways are different.

(at least according to the lawyers)


----------



## rworne

Justin Thyme said:


> ... Neither of those two options are available, Apple won't let third parties like Real Networks or anybody else use FairPlay...


Well the "wildly successful" ROKR phone plays iTunes songs w/fairplay. Motorola is a 3rd party. So it IS possible.

My theory is TiVo just bought a prepackaged solution to save time, money and effort. Microsoft was there to offer one. Microsoft also has no intention of letting others play with their DRM - unless it is tied in some way with Windows. MS is aggressively giving it to anyone that asks. Even so, the Windows Media Player for the Mac won't deal with Microsoft's DRM and always craps out when presented with these files.


----------



## Justin Thyme

You left out HP. The HP iPod also can also use Fairplay. 

So sure, if you want to create a player with proprietary Apple technology only that is joined at the hip to iTunes, then no sweat, Apple will let you use their format.

Anyone else from music vendors like RealNetworks to Virgin Mega- forget it. Virgin even took Apple to court trying to get permission to create Fairplay files. I'm sure you remember that little dust up with Realnetworks with threats from Jobs that they would sue RealNetworks for making their songs compatible with Fairplay so that they would work on iPods.

Did you get that? Apple was going to sue an ISV for making their product compatible with an apple product.

Is life strange or what?

As for Microsoft's games with DRM- sure there are some pretty mind numbingly slimey moves they are doing to use their DRM to tie consumers to their platform. But this is not about who's wearing the white hat here. From where I stand, it looks like a dark shade of brown matter hanging off of both of the hats.


----------



## bedelman

Fofer said:


> On a Mac? Or a PC? Or both?


On a Mac, but I was using files derived from TiVoToGo files


----------



## Gunnyman

Fofer said:


> On a Mac? Or a PC? Or both?
> 
> I ask because I have no direct experience with TiVoToGo.
> 
> But the MPEG-2 files that I derive from my DirecTiVo using <ahem> "alternate means" play juuuusssttt fine in QuickTime Player on my PowerBook, using the MPEG-2 Quicktime kit.
> 
> Hey, TiVo: when the hacking community, in it's free time, is able to deliver a more seamless, customer-pleasing solution that your own engineers do, I think it's time to start reevaluating your resources.


Most profound statement I have read in this thread
/salute Fofer.


----------



## Gunnyman

cwoody222 said:


> A very good point.
> 
> I guess one difference could be that I paid for my CD so I 'own' the music (do I? where do my rights end?). But the broadcast airways are different.
> 
> (at least according to the lawyers)


The broadcast airwaves are public though, so there should be no difference.
And the digital copy argument that MPAA likes to use doesn't hold water with Standalone Tivos because the content gets converted at least TWICE from the point it was broadcasted to the point where it gets extracted. Even DTV tivo recordings aren't perfect. Seems to me the MPAA should have tired harder to keep dvd recorders and blank DVD's of the market rather than screw with DRM and broadcast flags and what not if they were really concerned about piracy.


----------



## gryhound

Duvs said:


> Let me know how it works out with the cable company box when you try to:
> 
> a) Play music or view photos on it that are stored on your Mac
> 
> b) Get any kind of recorded content off of it
> 
> Duvs


Roku labs has it all figured out. Plus they support High Def tvs. You can stream all the media from your mac plus it has cool screen savers and art packs. rokulabs photobridge


----------



## Fofer

gryhound said:


> Roku labs has it all figured out. Plus they support High Def tvs. You can stream all the media from your mac plus it has cool screen savers and art packs. rokulabs photobridge


Great, only it's not a PVR.

So now I'd need to hook up a tuner/PVR to the Mac (like El Gato's EyeTV or Alchemy's new one) to actually GET content. Only they work on basic cable only... what if I need a cable box or want satellite?

Grr. You get my point?


----------



## tonyf3

The One Year Anniversary of the release of TiVo togo for Windows is coming up in about six weeks. I wonder if they ever hired anyone for their Mac Developer job? If they didn't... "working hard on it" rings more hollow than ever. 11+ months later, do they have any idea of when they can offer something of value to the Mac community. In Feb. TiVo desktop 1.9 will be a year old as well. When we reach the 18mo. mark, entire new desktop systems will have been developed and released, but no new offerings for TiVo's Mac users.


----------



## cwoody222

Hell, in one year they haven't even been able to produce a STATEMENT to the Mac community and you're hoping for actual working software?

Keep dreamin'...


----------



## schalliol

Sad indeed. I hope they'll surprise us at MacWorld San Francisco or something like that.


----------



## magicalday

Simple inexcusable on TiVo's part to not at least come clean on the status of Mac support.


----------



## tonyf3

cwoody222 said:


> Hell, in one year they haven't even been able to produce a STATEMENT to the Mac community and you're hoping for actual working software?
> 
> Keep dreamin'...


Chris, 
True, but the comment was meant as a PSA reminder for the our friends at TiVo in case they forgot. One of our other options is TiVo Tool. Not for the faint of heart. 
So the non-support milestone tweaking is a little easier.


----------



## Quevar

Just saw a link about TTG coming to iPod V's: http://www.latimes.com/business/cus...589292.story?coll=la-tot-promo&track=morenews

I'm wondering what impact this will have on TiVo supporting OS X. Supposedly, if they can convert the video into something that Apple's iPod can decode, that same video should be viewable in iTunes on both Windows and OS X.

There are two quotes that make me a little dubious of that though: TTG software "...enables *some subscribers* to transfer shows to a laptop or PC via a home network..." and "TiVo subscribers will need to *purchase special software to tap the features*, said Jim Denney, TiVo's vice president of product marketing."

I'm hoping this software they speak of is not something that uses the Direct Show filters to convert it into the iPod format because that would not benefit Macs at all. I wonder if it will be using Apple's DRM scheme? Only time will tell....


----------



## schalliol

Can I trade in my 45,000 TiVo referral points toward a Mac programmer salary?


----------



## cwoody222

My guess is it's going to be PC-only. So their "support" for iPod is going to leave out iPod's own makers' computers. And TiVo, once again, is going to ignore Mac users. And they're gonna look pretty dumb with "iPod support... only for Windows".

Go ahead TiVo... prove me wrong. I won't hold my breath.


----------



## bostlaw

cwoody222 said:


> My guess is it's going to be PC-only. So their "support" for iPod is going to leave out iPod's own makers' computers. And TiVo, once again, is going to ignore Mac users. And they're gonna look pretty dumb with "iPod support... only for Windows".
> 
> Go ahead TiVo... prove me wrong. I won't hold my breath.


Let's hope that you are wrong...although I tend to doubt it seriously...


----------



## jalex

This really is insulting news -- does anybody know? Is this the first entry into the iPod add-on market that only works if you use your iPod with a PC? MacNN provides another story (sorry, can't link). It mentions that each transfer will have a watermark that helps track down the account the recording came from. I'll bet the TiVo doesn't do the watermarking itself. I'll bet that's a function of the software you have to buy, and in that case, I'm sure it only works on Microsoft platforms.

For a company that has "grown up" being good to its customers (being open about hacking, communicative, etc), it's amazing how poorly they've handled their Mac audience. Maybe they'd get more users using TiVoToGo if they allowed those with a multimedia-oriented platform to use it.

For now, even though the interface and features are still junk, the Motorola DVR provided by Comcast (from which I could transfer video to my Mac) looks better and better.

I suppose I'd be more upset if TiVo were getting some sort of recurring revenue from me -- if I hadn't bought the lifetime subscription long enough ago that it has paid for itself and then some.


----------



## jalex

Looks like I can link now. Here's the MacNN story: http://www.ipodnn.com/news/05/11/21/tivo.adds.ipod.support/


----------



## cwoody222

jalex said:


> This really is insulting news


That sums it up very well. They've moved beyond not-supporting and are not insulting us. "Oh, see that iPod made by Apple? We are making a brand new software update available exclusively with iPods... but only those who use Windows. You Apple freaks are left in the cold again. So, so sorry. But don't worry, we're working hard on it. No really. Super duper hard. We swear."

It's a joke.



jalex said:


> I suppose I'd be more upset if TiVo were getting some sort of recurring revenue from me -- if I hadn't bought the lifetime subscription long enough ago that it has paid for itself and then some.


That's how I feel too. If I didn't have lifetime, it'd be a whole 'nother story.


----------



## Jeffsters

Tivo? iPod? I don't care!

I am just waiting for the right Tivo replacement and I am soooooooooooooooo gone! I'm going to ship them my three units with a note to stick them....


----------



## Turtleboy

Why are Mac people jumping to the conclusion that it won't be available for Macs? Tivo hasn't said anything yet.

Just seems like pointless whining at this point. 

Wait till you have confirmatin before unleashing the full force of your virtriol


----------



## cwoody222

After a year of lies of omission, misleading statements, non-statements, and zero in the way of mac software development or support... I think we're fairly safe to assume nothing new will occur here.

As I said... prove me wrong TiVo...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

jalex said:


> This really is insulting news -- does anybody know? Is this the first entry into the iPod add-on market that only works if you use your iPod with a PC? MacNN provides another story (sorry, can't link). It mentions that each transfer will have a watermark that helps track down the account the recording came from. I'll bet the TiVo doesn't do the watermarking itself. I'll bet that's a function of the software you have to buy, and in that case, I'm sure it only works on Microsoft platforms.


The same specualtaion could be that they are going to the watermark and thus bypass the DRM they are using now and finally open up TTG for the Mac. I am sure they would add the watermark as the file leaves the TiVo as that means you still have to hack the TiVo itself instead of the easier job of simply not using the software supplied for the PC.

again this is just speculation, just like the speculation it will be a windows only solution. There really is no public information on what this new desktop will entail.

you may now proceed to point out the track record that TiVo has severly abandoned Mac users in a vacuum of no updates and no info


----------



## TheSlyBear

ZeoTiVo said:


> The same specualtaion could be that they are going to the watermark and thus bypass the DRM they are using now and finally open up TTG for the Mac.


Wouldn't that be lovely.

If the watermark is sufficient "protection" for the iPod-extracted video, why not for desktop video as well? Unless, they're making a distinction between full-size and iPod-sized video (which would be silly, if you ask me).

Though, if this were to be the case, why not annouce it at the same time as the iPod capabilities and cause Mac users everywhere to rejoice?


----------



## kongjie

> Last year, TiVo made available to all its Series2 subscribers the TiVoToGo feature. The TiVoToGo feature allows subscribers to transfer TV shows from their DVR to a laptop or PC over their home network. From the PC, subscribers can watch the shows, or transfer them to devices compatible with Microsoft Portable Media Center format. Today's announcement adds support for the Apple iPod and Sony PSP, as well as the ability to specify Season Pass recordings to conveniently transfer to the portable device via the PC overnight.


This is pretty hard to believe--they've completely left any mention of the Mac out of this announcement. And it's borderline deceptive: "all" Series2 subscribers don't have TiVoToGo--only PC-equipped subscribers have this benefit.

Does anyone else think this is BIZARRE?--that evidently Tivo is going to enable subscribers to view programs on their iPods..._as long as they don't use Macs_ ?????


----------



## iDriveX

Every single news publication I have read (MacWorld, CNN, etc) has stated that today's announcement with be without Macintosh Support. Just for clarification.


----------



## Turtleboy

iDriveX said:


> Every single news publication I have read (MacWorld, CNN, etc) has stated that today's announcement with be without Macintosh Support. Just for clarification.


Links?

Where did it specifically say that?


----------



## kongjie

The link at MacWorld isn't directly from them--it's from playlistmag.com: TiVo makes play for iPod, PSP, sans Mac


----------



## rog

Turtleboy said:


> Links?
> 
> Where did it specifically say that?


linked from MacWorld:

http://playlistmag.com/news/2005/11/21/tivo/index.php

"TiVo Inc.s TiVoToGo service will soon allow users to convert video formatted for the video-capable Apple iPod and Sonys PlayStation Portable... TiVoToGo is for Windows PCs only."

I think the operating assumption that this (and other articles) are making is that the new TiVo > iPod technology will be piggy-backed on the TiVoToGo/TiVoDesktop software... which we all know does not offer full Mac support.

-----

I think we can also assume that Mac support for this new functionality is not forthcoming, because TiVoPony has completely ignored requests for clarification in the main ToGo/iPod thread.

Also, why wouldn't they announce this within the larger announcement?


----------



## rog

Oh, this just in:



TiVoPony said:


> Regarding the Macintosh...
> 
> Yes, we intend to support it, but not in the February release. Macintosh support for the new features announced today is planned for mid-2006.
> 
> Pony
> 
> (edited for clarity)


A new time-estimate for Mac support; but note the specific wording "Macintosh support *for the new features announced today*." That statement clearly avoids the discussion of general TiVoDesktop/TiVoToGo Mac support.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

it will be an interesting year for TiVo desktop in 2006


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

rog said:


> A new time-estimate for Mac support; but note the specific wording "Macintosh support *for the new features announced today*." That statement clearly avoids the discussion of general TiVoDesktop/TiVoToGo Mac support.


Getting encrypted TiVo-encrypted video to iPod-compatible video is a much simpler problem, taken by itself, than getting TiVo-encrypted video to play back nicely in QuickTime applications (and, given QuickTime's rather slow H.264 encode times, it's probably better to leave it out of the loop in any case.)


----------



## hammer32

There was this in the MacCentral Article:



> "Both Mac and Windows versions of TiVo Desktop software are available, though Mac-using TiVo subscribers have noted that the Mac software has languished. In fact, the currently available version  TiVo Desktop for Mac v1.9.1  is not compatible with Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger.
> 
> The Macintosh development of the TiVoToGo product isnt being held up because of that issue, said Denney. In fact, he said that a fix for the TiVo Desktop for Mac software should be released imminently."


I like _imminently_. _imminently_ makes me want to go home from work early.


----------



## rog

Also, I just found this (same?) article, which contains excerpts from an interview with TiVo's Vice President of Product Marketing:

http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/11/21/tivointerview/index.php



> TiVoToGo enables users of some Microsoft Windows-equipped PCs and Windows-compatible portable media players to copy their shows onto their computers and portable devices. *The company has promised a Macintosh version, which Denney indicated theyre still working on.
> 
> We hope to have something in mid-2006,* he told MacCentral.
> 
> When pressed for more details, Denney added, I would prefer to underpromise and overdeliver in this case. We havent set a date but *were actively working on it.*


Ah... they've gone from "working hard on [it]" to "_actively_ working on it."


----------



## hammer32

Yup, that's the same article. The bit about _imminently_ is at the very bottom (it'll look familiar, that's where we've been on the priority list  ).


----------



## Aeolius

ZeoTiVo said:


> it will be an interesting year for TiVo desktop in 2006


 If anyone has the patience to wait that long. Elgato is also working on video iPod support.


----------



## cwoody222

rog said:


> Oh, this just in:
> 
> A new time-estimate for Mac support; but note the specific wording "Macintosh support *for the new features announced today*." That statement clearly avoids the discussion of general TiVoDesktop/TiVoToGo Mac support.


I read it the same way. Pony (which I appreciate his response, ANY response) seemed to go out of his way to avoid any sort of mention of CURRENT ToGo features coming to Mac.

Just like their past comments have been very specifically worded. More "look at what we're NOT saying, 'cause we don't have the stones to give it to you Mac users straight".

Don't get me wrong, at least this is SOMETHING but until I get ALL of the features that Windows users get, I won't be happy.


----------



## Bigg

hey announced iPod video support. Shouldn't this play on a mac? Then a PC could just be a networked transcoder essentially. TiVo is not a lot higher resolution than iPod video, and basic quality screws it up more than a good off-line video encode. Those xViDs they do online are amazing... 174MB 22 minutes semi-HDTV.

EDIT: Heck, you could "burn to a DVD" and select a virtual DVD drive, then write to an ISO and mount it on the MAC.


----------



## kongjie

rog said:


> Ah... they've gone from "working hard on [it]" to "_actively_ working on it."


If they continue at this pace, we might get something functional before those newfangled neural broadcast reception chips get implanted in our brains.


----------



## cwoody222

Whoa... TWO positive statements from Pony in one day!

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3487497&&#post3487497


----------



## Babasyzygy

Three years ago, I'm deciding whether to stay with TiVo. I'm in middle of converting my huge CD library (1700+ CDs) to digital on my Macs, and want to use (unprotected) AACes.

TiVo tells me that they're working hard on supporting AAC in the HMO (which I paid for, feeling like a fool when they made it free) and that support should be coming within a matter of months. So I start on the project, and stay with TiVo, eventually buying a couple of Pioneer DVD-R/RW TiVos. 

And nothing changes.

There is NO excuse for not supporting unprotected AACs on the HMO. The code is available for free on-line, and the TiVos certainly have enough processing power to play them. The only reason there can be for TiVo not supporting AACs is that they simply don't care to.

In the mean time, I converted some of my collection to MP3 and used TiVoDesktop. Which now, for some unknown reason, goes wild and eats all of the host Mac's CPU. Maybe a newer version would fix it, maybe not. TiVo doesn't care about keeping me as a customer.

I've even gone so far as to buy an ElGato EyeTV 500, but the integration with the (very poor) directory data is so poor as to be unusable. And that really underscores the only thing of value that TiVo has left to it, over homebrew solutions - the high quality directory guide (but not so high quality that it will support part-time channels, like cable channel 51 here that is CSPAN from 8am to 8pm and VH-1 the remaining hours). 

I'll believe Mac support when I see it, and then I won't believe that I won't be abandoned. I can only hope that Apple does come up with a DVR solution (you can bet it would have good directory data), instead of solely relying upon an iTunes Music Store pay-for-distribution model.


----------



## Fofer

Babasyzygy said:


> Three years ago, I'm deciding whether to stay with TiVo. I'm in middle of converting my huge CD library (1700+ CDs) to digital on my Macs, and want to use (unprotected) AACes.
> 
> TiVo tells me that they're working hard on supporting AAC in the HMO (which I paid for, feeling like a fool when they made it free) and that support should be coming within a matter of months.


Dude, I've had AAC (unprotected) working for a while now, thanks to this discovery by our own Dennis Wilkinson:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2608116&&#post2608116

Still works with Tiger, iTunes 6, etc. Check it out!


----------



## rog

Yeah, I play unprotected AAC files from my iTunes library (stored on my iBook) on my TiVo all the time, using the official TiVoDesktop software for Macs.

The functionality isn't published. Hell, the installer for TiVoDesktop even crashes during the install. But it all works anyway. All you need to do is ignore the crash, make sure the firewall on your Mac isn't blocking TiVoDesktop, and install LAME...

AAC's will play on the TiVo!


----------



## Unix_Beard

Doesn't the AAC get converted to something before playback? Kind of defeats the point. I just go with 256kbps MP3s.


----------



## gonzotek

Unix_Beard said:


> Doesn't the AAC get converted to something before playback? Kind of defeats the point. I just go with 256kbps MP3s.


It's converted on-the-fly to a high-quality mp3, via LAME. The original file on the hard drive will remain an unmodified AAC.


----------



## Unix_Beard

gonzotek said:


> It's converted on-the-fly to a high-quality mp3, via LAME. The original file on the hard drive will remain an unmodified AAC.


So the file undergos two lossy conversions? Once when ripped to AAC and another mp3 conversion. The marginal savings in disk space doesn't seem worth it to me.


----------



## rog

Unix_Beard said:


> So the file undergos two lossy conversions? Once when ripped to AAC and another mp3 conversion. The marginal savings in disk space doesn't seem worth it to me.


So just rip your tunes to mp3 in the first place... I'm not sure I understand your complaint.

The original poster for this mini-thread here wanted to be able to play his unprotected AAC files on his TiVo. He can, with no extra work involved on his part. You don't have to do the same.


----------



## megazone

Unix_Beard said:


> So the file undergos two lossy conversions? Once when ripped to AAC and another mp3 conversion. The marginal savings in disk space doesn't seem worth it to me.


Where marginal can be 50% - AAC is a much better codec than MP3, 128kbps AAC is usually quite enough for good quality, while you'd need 192-256kbps MP3 for the same reproduction. Since I have over 12,000 tracks, all 128kbps AAC (and all legal, most ripped from my CDs, the others via iTunes - and JHymn'd), it uses about 44GB. I can fit all my music on a 60GB iPod, I couldn't if I'd used MP3. The larger the collection, the more it matters.

Unfortunately, since I'm on Windows, the LAME trick isn't viable.


----------



## MediaDog

To TiVo beta manager,

I am a long time (read since TiVo year 1) faithful TiVo owner.

I currently have a TiVo Series 2 160HR (among others) and also have:

New iPod with Video (60GB)
New iMac G5 2Ghz (with 10.4 and a second drive with 10.3)
Fairly New Windows XP Pro system (2.7Ghz)
Broadband Cable service @ 3Mbs.
I use the current TiVo-to-go software

And I would love to be considered for your alpha/beta testing of TiVo-To-Go for iPod with video use.

I have been a TiVo beta tester in the past (many years ago), and would love to be one again.

I have kept my 'application' for beta status at the TiVo Website up to date, but it does not offer an option for me to tell you that I am also an iPod with Video owner. 

So... if your reading this =) please consider me, or at least have someone update the TiVo Beta form on the website so we can update it and be considered thru normal channels.

I can be contacted at: andrew 'at' merlinmedia 'dot' com

Thanks,

MediaDog

PS. This is a first post under this new ID, I have long since forgotten my original login to the TiVo community forums from back in the early years.


----------



## Unix_Beard

rog said:


> So just rip your tunes to mp3 in the first place... I'm not sure I understand your complaint.


I have no complaint. I already noted that I do indeed rip everything to 256kbps mp3. 

I was merely inquiring why you would rip your collection of CDs to AAC and then complain about Tivo not supporting the format. Recommendations were given for the LAME solution and I gave a practical opinion. If Tivo is your primary target device (or secondary even) then not only does the device not support it but the presented solution (LAME) further compresses an already compressed file.

Why not demand support of FLAC as well?

When I set upon the mission of ripping my CDs, I decided to use the most ubiquitous file format out there. Its one of those things you only do once or twice. The previous poster made a good point about AAC - his target device is his iPod so it makes sense to maximize the utility for that device.


----------



## rworne

MediaDog said:


> To TiVo beta manager,
> ..snippage...


Don't get your hopes up, and don't beg.  I got a beta invite a couple of months ago and after responding I got... Nada. Zip. Nan de mo nai.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Unix_Beard said:


> The previous poster made a good point about AAC - his target device is his iPod so it makes sense to maximize the utility for that device.


I think that's the crux of the discussion right there. You want to encode your music optimally for wherever you listen to it most, but you still want to be able to listen to it in other places as well. For me, even with my iPod being my primary listening device, 256kbps MP3 is the best option since storage isn't an issue (60GB iPod only half full with my entire collection on it at that rate.) For others, I can see how AAC makes sense, and why they'd still like to be able to use the same files with their TiVos.


----------



## Babasyzygy

Fofer said:


> Dude, I've had AAC (unprotected) working for a while now, thanks to this discovery by our own Dennis Wilkinson:
> 
> (URL removed because I'm still a new poster)
> 
> Still works with Tiger, iTunes 6, etc. Check it out!


That's cool and interesting for the hack value, but pretty useless as a sound source. Double lossy compression is *not* a step forward. On the other hand - I also store the AIFFs (thank god for external firewire drive towers), so perhaps something could be done with this that would only use one layer of lossy compression.

Plus, as I wrote, TiVoDesktop goes wild on my machines... maybe because of the size of my library (roughly 1600 CDs ripped to date). After about 6 hours it starts eating all of the CPU and almost freezes the machines up... I've tried this on multiple machines ( 2 minis and a G4 tower, with the same library) and it seems to be consistent. It works until that point, but it's useless if I have to manually start it every time I want to use it.

I've called TiVo, but they just shrug and blow me off when I say I'm using 10.4. Too bad there's no avenue of support for Mac users.


----------



## Babasyzygy

Unix_Beard said:


> Why not demand support of FLAC as well?


That would be very nice, but I'd settle for AIFF or WAV, those being much more standard lossless formats.

And also... TiVo *promised* AAC support when I talked to them, in a reasonable time frame (three years ago). I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for anything they haven't mentioned.

I'm a big-time TiVo user - I have three in my house, bought my mother one and my brother two. But the failure to integrate with Mac-based homes makes me want to jump ship as soon as I can - hell, they could just support external Mac developers to do the work for free! I know I'd gladly donate the coding time, and most of the developers I know are also TiVo fans...

The only reason I'm holding on now is that two of my TiVos are DVR-810Hs... but let me tell you, the fact that I can't burn DVDs of shows transferred from another of my TiVos (same model) really pisses me off.


----------



## Fofer

Babasyzygy said:


> But the failure to integrate with Mac-based homes makes me want to jump ship as soon as I can


Whaddya mean? What can PC users do that a Mac user (with an adequately hacked box) can't do?

Hell, at this point considering all the hassles on the PC side I think I'd prefer the Mac avenue. Faster download time, no DRM...


----------



## tonyf3

Back to the ipod Video announcement, and thoughts and Questions on how it might connect to TiVo.
1. Is it an update to TiVo desktop that uses itunes as the conduit for Videos?
aka itunes videos.
2. Do we connect the ipod directly to the USB port on the back of the TiVo?
3. Are they bypassing Quicktime for this?
4. What about their Directshow DRM and Windows Media 10?

This is just what comes to mind on the subject of connectivity.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

tonyf3 said:


> Back to the ipod Video announcement, and thoughts and Questions on how it might connect to TiVo.
> 1. Is it an update to TiVo desktop that uses itunes as the conduit for Videos?
> aka itunes videos.
> 2. Do we connect the ipod directly to the USB port on the back of the TiVo?
> 3. Are they bypassing Quicktime for this?
> 4. What about their Directshow DRM and Windows Media 10?
> 
> This is just what comes to mind on the subject of connectivity.


#1 is unclear, but seems like a reasonable guess.

#2 is almost certainly NOT the case. It would require the TiVo to do the transcode to H.264 or basic MPEG-4, which it's not suited for.

#3 is also not clear. Strictly for TiVo-to-iPod, Quicktime wouldn't necessarily be the best approach, but seeing as how Pony claims full TTG support is coming, I'd guess that they're only bypassing QuickTime if they had to.

#4 Their DRM may be implemented on Windows as a DirectShow filter, but it's not doing anything DirectShow specific (beyond "glue"-type stuff.) The same algorithm can be packaged any number of ways, so I don't think that DirectShow or WM10 will figure in at all in a Mac implementation. For example, MPEG2 decompression can be implemented as a DirectShow filter, but MPEG2 isn't algorithmically bound to DirectShow -- same idea.


----------



## tonyf3

Thanks Dennis for all the info and support you've given to this thread over the past year. 

On a separate note, I recently encountered a TiVo networking issue that I can't figure out. 
My original 3 year old 60 hr TiVo died (Hard Drive), and was replaced with an new 80hr, by TiVo no less. I went through all the guided setups, system updates etc. 

2 issues: 
1. the "https://xx.x.x.x/nowplaying/index.html" unsupported feature doesn't work on the new TiVo, I checked the IP. The weird part is I can hit my other 40hr this way with no problem. 
So I'm at a loss as to why. 
2.TiVo to TiVo transfers are now ridiculously slow. 

Software version 7.2.1 
TiVo desktop 1.9.1 
OSX 10.3.9


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

tonyf3 said:


> 2 issues:
> 1. the "https://xx.x.x.x/nowplaying/index.html" unsupported feature doesn't work on the new TiVo, I checked the IP. The weird part is I can hit my other 40hr this way with no problem.
> So I'm at a loss as to why.
> 2.TiVo to TiVo transfers are now ridiculously slow.


#1 is strange, since you say you're doing transfers (meaning you have transfers enabled for HMO.) If you turn on Bonjour in Safari, does that TiVo show up? If so, can you replace the http with https in the URL, and add in the nowplaying, and see if that works? The difference here is that the address you'd be using will be on a link-local subnet. Might make a difference, might not. Are you using the same adapter as on your old unit?

#2 might, unfortunately, be expected. I have both an "old" (240-type) Series 2 and a Toshiba DVD combo unit, and the network performance on the DVD unit (which has a lot in common with the new, 540-type Series 2 units) is noticeably worse.


----------



## rog

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> #2 might, unfortunately, be expected. I have both an "old" (240-type) Series 2 and a Toshiba DVD combo unit, and the network performance on the DVD unit (which has a lot in common with the new, 540-type Series 2 units) is noticeably worse.


Yes, TiVoBill among countless other posters has confirmed that the newest 540 series 2 units are exceptionally slow with TiVoToGo transfers... something about the cheaper hardware in the 540 (cheaper components were used to cut down on the cost of producing the series 2 boxes) causing a bottleneck...


----------



## tonyf3

rog said:


> Yes, TiVoBill among countless other posters has confirmed that the newest 540 series 2 units are exceptionally slow with TiVoToGo transfers... something about the cheaper hardware in the 540 (cheaper components were used to cut down on the cost of producing the series 2 boxes) causing a bottleneck...


Actually this was just a TiVo to TiVo transfer. Not a TiVo togo download.


----------



## rog

tonyf3 said:


> Actually this was just a TiVo to TiVo transfer. Not a TiVo togo download.


Oh, sorry, I missed that. Unfortunately, the same still applies. I could have more clearly said, "540 series 2 units are exceptionally slow with _network_ transfers."

The bottleneck is there either way.


----------



## Quevar

> (Confidential to my Mac buddies: I know, I know. But this announcement, while still PC-specific, bodes very well. Hang in therewe are targeting mid-2006 for Mac support for TivoToGo!)


I just read that in the TiVo newsletter. It is official - Mac support for TTG in mid-2006 (at least, that is the target). Not a very near target and it only took them 11 months to finally get this information to us, but we do have something official to look forward to. Right about when I had completely given up....


----------



## cwoody222

Argh, have I magically fallen off the TiVo newsletter subscription again?!?!

Still good news, though. But still horrible that it took them this long to make an official announcement.


----------



## tonyf3

Quevar said:


> I just read that in the TiVo newsletter. It is official - Mac support for TTG in mid-2006 (at least, that is the target). Not a very near target and it only took them 11 months to finally get this information to us, but we do have something official to look forward to. Right about when I had completely given up....


When I saw this yesterday, I thought Ahha!, They're actually mentioning the Mac Users in the Newsletter and where the support stands. Finally some concrete info and dates. I wonder if they've been scanning this thread? That was the point all along.


----------



## tonyf3

rog said:


> Oh, sorry, I missed that. Unfortunately, the same still applies. I could have more clearly said, "540 series 2 units are exceptionally slow with _network_ transfers."
> 
> The bottleneck is there either way.


Damn! 
Would this explain why the series 2 40hr I have can still be hit via the http://00.0.0.0/nowplaying/index.html and not the 80hr. Or do you think it's something else. The old 60hr was a 140 box and I could connect to it fine. Not that it does me any good since I still can't convert the .tivo file.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

tonyf3 said:


> Damn!
> Would this explain why the series 2 40hr I have can still be hit via the http://00.0.0.0/nowplaying/index.html and not the 80hr. Or do you think it's something else.


I think it's most likely something else. Slow is one thing; not working is something else.

I assume you've tried the standard "reboot both machines" troubleshooting? I vaguely recall there being an issue about the service being started up if the adapter wasn't connected at boot time.

If you include Bonjour in your Safari bookmarks menu/bar, does that see the TiVo?


----------



## Justin Thyme

tonyf3 said:


> Damn!
> Would this explain why the series 2 40hr I have can still be hit via the http://00.0.0.0/nowplaying/index.html and not the 80hr. Or do you think it's something else. The old 60hr was a 140 box and I could connect to it fine. Not that it does me any good since I still can't convert the .tivo file.


I think Rog was refering to the difference between a 240xxxxxx family versus the 540xxxxx family which is based on the Broadcom chips that experience the USB bottleneck. So if both of yours are in the same series, then this factor has nothing to do with it. Besides- the slowdown is not gigantic. I definately notice my 240 is swifter with TTG and MRVs but it can't be much more than 25%. Someone did some soap box derby trials a while back so there are some real numbers floating around.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Justin Thyme said:


> I think Rog was refering to the difference between a 240xxxxxx family versus the 540xxxxx family which is based on the Broadcom chips that experience the USB bottleneck. So if both of yours are in the same series, then this factor has nothing to do with it. Besides- the slowdown is not gigantic. I definately notice my 240 is swifter with TTG and MRVs but it can't be much more than 25%. Someone did some soap box derby trials a while back so there are some real numbers floating around.


That's the thing, though -- he went from two 240-series units to one 240 and one 540, 
which is when he noticed the slowdown. I don't expect that the "can't see Now Playing via https" issue he also sees is related.


----------



## tonyf3

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> That's the thing, though -- he went from two 240-series units to one 240 and one 540,
> which is when he noticed the slowdown. I don't expect that the "can't see Now Playing via https" issue he also sees is related.


I have a 4 port Linksys extending the wired portion of my network to the 240 tivo.
It my have a bad cable. However, if you're pulling from the 540 at the 240, transfer time is decent. But when you're pulling from the 240 at the 540 it's about 5min for every 1min of recording time to transfer. The nowplaying via IP not working to the 540 still has me at a loss since it does see itunes & iphoto lists.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

tonyf3 said:


> I have a 4 port Linksys extending the wired portion of my network to the 240 tivo.
> It my have a bad cable. However, if you're pulling from the 540 at the 240, transfer time is decent. But when you're pulling from the 240 at the 540 it's about 5min for every 1min of recording time to transfer. The nowplaying via IP not working to the 540 still has me at a loss since it does see itunes & iphoto lists.


That sounds unusual to me -- I've get a 240 and a 565 (same basic hardware as the 540, but it's a DVD recorder) and I don't think I've ever seen the transfers go that slowly between the two (although they are attached to the same wired switch.) I can still get just about real-time transfers of best-quality recordings. If you do suspect a bad cable, I'd swap it out and see if that helps, but those speeds sound way off.

I'd also pull down a copy of Bonjour Browser, and check that you see entries for each TiVo under ._tivo_videos._tcp and HTTP (._http._tcp). If either are missing (I'd guess one of the HTTP entries may be) I'd restart the appropriate TiVo.


----------



## tonyf3

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> That sounds unusual to me -- I've get a 240 and a 565 (same basic hardware as the 540, but it's a DVD recorder) and I don't think I've ever seen the transfers go that slowly between the two (although they are attached to the same wired switch.) I can still get just about real-time transfers of best-quality recordings. If you do suspect a bad cable, I'd swap it out and see if that helps, but those speeds sound way off.
> 
> I'd also pull down a copy of Bonjour Browser, and check that you see entries for each TiVo under ._tivo_videos._tcp and HTTP (._http._tcp). If either are missing (I'd guess one of the HTTP entries may be) I'd restart the appropriate TiVo.


Thanks Dennis. I downloaded Bonjour Browser, and they both show up. Except _tivo-videos._tcp. -2. Appears twice with the same info. The http as one.


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## tonyf3

Dennis, 
Bonjour Browser is also showing the 80hr as having the following software ver.
swversion=7.2.1-oth-01-2-140


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## Dennis Wilkinson

Tony,

I'm reasonably sure that the ._tivo-videos._tcp and _tivo_videos._tcp are just a backwards-compatibility thing (note the hypen v. the underscore). It's just two Bonjour registrations of the same service with different service names. When you say:



> The http as one.


do you mean that only one TiVo shows up under the HTTP entry, or that you see only one HTTP entry with both TiVos listed (as opposed to the _tivo_videos/_tivo-videos thing)?

Does that "7.2.1-oth-01-2-140" match the version in the System Information screen? I'm not sure, but I don't think that's the right version for a 540 unit (although I'd expect a LOT more issues with the wrong software installed.) It would be the right version for your 240 (the 40 hour, right?) since the last few digits as of version 7.something no longer correspond exactly (the 140 and 240 series units, at least, share a build now.)


----------



## tonyf3

Dennis,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I've been a little busy. As always I really appreciate the in-depth info. For now I'm going to wait till after the Mac World Keynote on Jan, 10th, to see what new offerings Apple has that will fill this void.

I'm thinking Mac Mini DVR with Frontrow 2.0, all appropriate Video I/O connections and an ipod Video dock. Maybe even wireless.

Tony

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0511macmini2.html
http://www.macworldexpo.com/live/20/events/20SFO06A/keynotes


----------



## tonyf3

Also,
In case I miss read earlier info on TiVo ToGo finally supporting Mac, I think we're talking June. Right?
If the Mac Mini DVR thing happens they'll be 6 months behind. Well, actually 2 1/2 years from the original announcement. But hey, who's counting.


----------



## Gunnyman

tonyf3 said:


> Dennis,
> Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I've been a little busy. As always I really appreciate the in-depth info. For now I'm going to wait till after the Mac World Keynote on Jan, 10th, to see what new offerings Apple has that will fill this void.
> 
> I'm thinking Mac Mini DVR with Frontrow 2.0, all appropriate Video I/O connections and an ipod Video dock. Maybe even wireless.
> 
> Tony
> 
> http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0511macmini2.html
> http://www.macworldexpo.com/live/20/events/20SFO06A/keynotes


If it has cable card I am SOOOOO there.


----------



## tonyf3

Gunnyman said:


> If it has cable card I am SOOOOO there.


Gunnyman,
In my mind I'm already gone.
(Cosmo Kramer)


----------



## tonyf3

Wide screen ipod video

http://guides.macrumors.com/Image:Videoipodfake_3.jpg


----------



## tonyf3

Well, MacWorld SF didn't have the rumored Mac Mini PVR. Damn!, I now here Sept. is more likely. So it looks like June for TiVo ToGo support for Mac. Happy New Year, let's hope TiVo gets it done, and done right.


----------



## cheezus

Well, you can add me to the list of pissed-off Mac users. What bothers me the most is that there's no TECHNOLOGICAL reason for a .tivo file decoder on OS X -- it's all political.


----------



## gonzotek

cheezus said:


> What bothers me the most is that there's no TECHNOLOGICAL reason for a .tivo file decoder on OS X -- it's all political.


What's your source for this? An experienced Mac OS quicktime developer on the forum has stated, as opinion, that Apple's MPEG2 decoder is poorly documented and not very robust, and that _might_ be a technological reason why there is still no Mac TTG.


----------



## cheezus

So why the need to use quicktime mpeg2? Plenty of people have reported playback through VLC on windows works just fine... it's the drm in the tivo/windowsmedia/directshow dll that tivo provides that makes the difference. How hard could it be for tivo to write an implimentation of their drm on another platform?


----------



## gonzotek

VLC isn't a commercial product. It would cost TiVo money to provide an mpeg2 decoder in their product. This is believed to be the same reason that the psp/ipod feature coming will need to be purchased:http://www.tivo.com/cms_static/press_66.html


> Subscribers will need to purchase certain low-cost software to facilitate the transfer of content from the PC to these portable devices. To discourage abuse or unlawful use of this feature, TiVo intends to employ "watermark" technologies on programs transferred to a portable device using the TiVo ToGo feature that would enable tracking of the account from which a transferred program originated.


Also, I'm 99% sure that VLC on Windows or any platform will only play tivo content after the file has been freed of drm, and is, for all intents and purposes, an mpeg2 file. VLC does not use the directshow filter system for file playback, although it can capture video from hardware(camera, tuner card, etc.) using that portion of DS.

To answer the question about how hard it would be to write the drm for another platform, I honestly couldn't say. They know how to encrypt it under a rather unique Linux platform, and how to decrypt it in a modern Windows environment, so I'm guessing they have a pretty good idea of what it takes to handle that part.

Don't get the idea I'm apologizing for TiVo, I think they've made more than one mistake with regards to Mac support. They didn't have simultaneous(or even close) releases, and then they stonewalled on the issue for too long. They could at least have been more forthcoming about the problem and/or its planned resolution.


----------



## smoothster

TivoTool works well for me if you have superpatch installed you just need to install the vserever. everything is located here

tivotool.com


----------



## cheezus

gonzotek said:


> VLC isn't a commercial product. It would cost TiVo money to provide an mpeg2 decoder in their product.


TiVo doesn't seem to have problems using Free software (linux kernel for example), so how about libmpeg2 http://libmpeg2.sourceforge.net/ -- it's GPL

Playing the mpeg2 file is no problem at all -- after all, there are plenty of reports in this thread of people using directshowdump on windows and moving un-drmed mpeg file over to the mac. And like you said, TiVo already implimented the drm on one unix-like platform, as well as windows. I don't see the technological hangup of bringing this to OS X.


----------



## cheezus

Looks like I have the Series 2.5 tivo (model TCD540....) which is unhackable. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=254550&highlight=540

so... looks like I'm just SOL. I guess I should have done better research before buying. I was just so impressed by the Series1 I used to have that I figured I should go for it. Now I wish I just had my series1 box back...


----------



## gonzotek

cheezus said:


> TiVo doesn't seem to have problems using Free software (linux kernel for example), so how about libmpeg2 http://libmpeg2.sourceforge.net/ -- it's GPL
> 
> Playing the mpeg2 file is no problem at all -- after all, there are plenty of reports in this thread of people using directshowdump on windows and moving un-drmed mpeg file over to the mac. And like you said, TiVo already implimented the drm on one unix-like platform, as well as windows. I don't see the technological hangup of bringing this to OS X.


2 words: Patents and Licensing
http://www.mpegla.com/m2/m2-agreement.cfm

If TiVo could just hook into the mpeg2 decoder provided by Apple, they could avoid the fee (but that would still require the seperate purchase of the Apple decoder by the user AND that the Apple decoder could actually do the job). This is what happens on Windows now, if you don't have an mpeg2 decoder that supports the specific flavor of mpeg2 in .tivo files, you have to purchase one or find a 'free' one(just because you can obtain it from a reputable download site, even if it's open source doesn't make it 100% legal). If TiVo, Inc. has to provide one as part of their distributed package, it would require both additional development time and, I would imagine dealing with the licensing issue may be a hold up as well.


----------



## cheezus

gonzotek said:


> 2 words: Patents and Licensing


Ah, interesting. Then again, the royalty is only $2.50 -- I'd pay that.


----------



## rog

cheezus said:


> Looks like I have the Series 2.5 tivo (model TCD540....) which is unhackable.


It's not "unhackable".

The TCD540*'s can be modified to allow for the extraction of video, but it requires a hardware hack, not just a software modification. Specifically, you have to "socket the PROM" -- replace the PROM chip on the motherboard with a modified version.

It's harder than modifying a Series I, no doubt, but hardly "unhackable".


----------



## tonyf3

Gunnyman said:


> If it has cable card I am SOOOOO there.


Speaking of cable card ports...
I'm assuming everyone has seen the Series 3 pics. If not, here are the links to the front and back from CES. Courtesy Megazone.

http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/Series3-front-1.JPG

http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/Series3-back-1.JPG

http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/


----------



## megazone

And more: http://www.tivolovers.com/252572.html


----------



## rog

Guess what kids?

TiVoDesktop for Mac OS X (10.4 Tiger) is finally out:

http://www.tivo.com/4.9.4.1.asp

TiVoDesktop version 1.9.2 adds official support for Tiger and apparently includes some stability enhancements. It does *not* offer TiVoToGo functionality at this time, but it's a start.

A bit overdue, I'd say, but still great news!


----------



## Aeolius

rog said:


> A bit overdue, I'd say, but still great news!


 Unless you have an Intel iMac or a MacBook Pro...as the new TiVo Desktop apparently does not work on Intel Macs. My new house will be finished in July. I hope either the Series 3 with full Mac support, or the Apple-branded equivalent DVR, is out by then. My TiVos are collecting dust in a closet, as we speak.

I don't ask for much; just a TiVo that works as well as my SA 8300, or a SA 8300 that has TiVo's interface, with full support for current and Intel Macs, of course. 

Granted, Disney is dusting off their MovieBeam offering; and now Apple's CEO is on the board at Disney...hrmmm


----------



## cheezus

Yep. For some reason TiVo Desktop is implemented as a pref pane, which can't run in Rosetta (the PowerPC->Intel translator). Not confirmed, but Galleon should still work.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

cheezus said:


> Yep. For some reason TiVo Desktop is implemented as a pref pane, which can't run in Rosetta (the PowerPC->Intel translator). Not confirmed, but Galleon should still work.


TiVo Desktop _has_ a preference pane, but the piece that does the heavy lifting is not (if it were a preference pane, you could run it under Rosetta by forcing the System Preferences application to run under Rosetta, selectable under the Get Info window for the application.)

The real problem is that the TiVo Desktop server (look in /Library/Application Support/TiVo) is a Java application that relies on JNI (Java Native Interface) files. Java cannot be run under emulation, so any JNI files need to be available for the flavor of processor you actually have.) Those files need to be rebuilt as universal.

Regardless, TiVoPony stated in another thread earlier today that the Intel build is expected in 6-8 weeks. Speaking as a Mac developer, I know that TiVo wasn't the only company that hadn't got things moved over to Mac OS X Intel when Apple pulled their "6 months ahead of schedule" bit at Macworld this year...


----------



## tonyf3

Was expecting a little more out of the Mac mini announcement. Like a Mac Mini DVR with TiVo like software. Oh well. Guess I'll just wait till June for TTG 2.0 for Mac.
(June would be mid 2006)

http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/28/live-from-the-steve-jobs-keynote-fun-new-products/


----------



## jshaffernc

Mac? What's a Mac?


----------



## tonyf3

jshaffernc said:


> Mac? What's a Mac?


That doesn't even warrant a real response.
"Welcome to the party Pal" ignorance is bliss I guess


----------



## tonyf3

MacWorld article on Mac support subject. Says mid 2006. 
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/11/21/tivointerview/index.php

Megazone Pics of TiVo ToGo / TiVo Desktop for Mac from CES. Internal release ver 2.0a3.

http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/TTG-Mac-5.JPG 
http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/TTG-Mac-1.JPG 
http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/TTG-Mac-2.JPG 
http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/TTG-Mac-6.JPG

So I guess you could say they've done something, it's only taken them over a year. 
But who's counting, I'm just glad it actually exists.


----------



## tonyf3

While we're all waiting for the TiVo ToGo Mac saga to continue.....
Does anyone know what happened to the Netflix download your movies to TiVo deal, announced last year. I heard it was dead, but not why. Alot of companies are talking about offering this model now.

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news.php?newsId=2890


----------



## jshaffernc

I don't quite get it. Tivo is the definition of open architecture. Witness this forum. Thousands have "hacked" into the box and made it better. Still, the Tivo software itself adds value.

By contrast, Mac is the ultimate in proprietary, closed architecture. You must conform to strict, relatively high-level APIs to play with Mac, and so there is little software for the Mac. It has a niche in publishing and graphic arts thanks to its unique and easy-to-use user interface. Just remember, that unique and easy-to-use *closed* user interface is the reason you're not seeing the software you're waiting for.

Can't have it both ways.

Jim


----------



## mportuesi

jshaffernc said:


> By contrast, Mac is the ultimate in proprietary, closed architecture. You must conform to strict, relatively high-level APIs to play with Mac, and so there is little software for the Mac. It has a niche in publishing and graphic arts thanks to its unique and easy-to-use user interface. Just remember, that unique and easy-to-use *closed* user interface is the reason you're not seeing the software you're waiting for.


The Windows platform and APIs are *every bit as closed* as Apple, yet TiVoToGo has been available on Windows for quite some time.

In fact, it is the closed nature of the Windows platform (the DirectShow DRM technology) which explains the lack of TTG on the Mac in the first place.

No, this is simply TiVo treating Mac owners as second-class citizens.


----------



## Dan203

Man you Mac guys are a sensative bunch. I can guarantee you that if TiVo could have had a Mac version of TTG available at launch they would have. Unfortunately Windows developers out number Mac developers by about 1000 to 1, so it's a lot harder to find a team of Mac developers capable of making TTG work on OSX then it is to find a team to make it work on Windows. In fact TiVo has had a job posting on their website for Mac developers for a couple of years now, which proves that their Mac development team is under staffed.

Dan


----------



## TydalForce

mportuesi said:


> The Windows platform and APIs are *every bit as closed* as Apple, yet TiVoToGo has been available on Windows for quite some time.
> 
> In fact, it is the closed nature of the Windows platform (the DirectShow DRM technology) which explains the lack of TTG on the Mac in the first place.
> 
> No, this is simply TiVo treating Mac owners as second-class citizens.


When every copy of Windows includes a world-class development environment like Apple's Xcode and runs on an open-source Unix foundation, I may begin to accept your argument.


----------



## tonyf3

Dan203 said:


> Man you Mac guys are a sensative bunch. I can guarantee you that if TiVo could have had a Mac version of TTG available at launch they would have. Unfortunately Windows developers out number Mac developers by about 1000 to 1, so it's a lot harder to find a team of Mac developers capable of making TTG work on OSX then it is to find a team to make it work on Windows. In fact TiVo has had a job posting on their website for Mac developers for a couple of years now, which proves that their Mac development team is under staffed.
> 
> Dan


"Mac developers by about 1000 to 1?"

Not for long.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/xcode/
http://www.osopinion.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4759


----------



## pmnick

I've been having problems with streaming music from my 933 mhz G4. The playback stutters throughout just about any song I try, regardless of length, file size, etc. My wireless signal strength is steady at 70-75%, so I don't think that's the problem. I've tried two different USB wireless adapters (Linksys and Belkin) and that doesn't seem to help. I'm using TiVo Desktop 1.9.2 and am running OS X 10.4.6 with 1 gig RAM. Am I missing some setting that I need to tweak?


----------



## tonyf3

pmnick said:


> I've been having problems with streaming music from my 933 mhz G4. The playback stutters throughout just about any song I try, regardless of length, file size, etc. My wireless signal strength is steady at 70-75%, so I don't think that's the problem. I've tried two different USB wireless adapters (Linksys and Belkin) and that doesn't seem to help. I'm using TiVo Desktop 1.9.2 and am running OS X 10.4.6 with 1 gig RAM. Am I missing some setting that I need to tweak?


Pmnick,
There aren't any additional settings that I'm aware of. But I can tell you that I've had stuttering as well from time to time. I think has to do with the speed of your wireless connection. The stream can get interupted if your G4 is trying to do other things as well. I'm running from a G4 1.25 Powerbook Alum wireless, 512 ram 10.3.9. Aiport Snow 802.11b as the base station, to a linksys 4 port router/hub wired to a Siemans USB adapter. Runs well 99% of the time. Stutters only ocassionaly.


----------



## pmnick

tonyf3 said:


> Pmnick,
> There aren't any additional settings that I'm aware of. But I can tell you that I've had stuttering as well from time to time. I think has to do with the speed of your wireless connection. The stream can get interupted if your G4 is trying to do other things as well. I'm running from a G4 1.25 Powerbook Alum wireless, 512 ram 10.3.9. Aiport Snow 802.11b as the base station, to a linksys 4 port router/hub wired to a Siemans USB adapter. Runs well 99% of the time. Stutters only ocassionaly.


Thanks, guess I'll keep tinkering. I didn't have any problems with earlier releases of TiVo Desktop that worked with Tiger, but this latest version just doesn't cut it. Only two computers share the router at any one time, though I'm my router is an older "b" style, not "g" if that matters.


----------



## maggard

Dan203 said:


> Man you Mac guys are a sensative [sic] bunch. I can guarantee you that if TiVo could have had a Mac version of TTG available at launch they would have. Unfortunately Windows developers out number Mac developers by about 1000 to 1, so it's a lot harder to find a team of Mac developers capable of making TTG work on OSX then it is to find a team to make it work on Windows. In fact TiVo has had a job posting on their website for Mac developers for a couple of years now, which proves that their Mac development team is under staffed.


Now *that's* spin!

It has taken TiVo *years* to find a Mac developer, in spite of their being under 9 miles from Apple HQ.

Nooo, no Mac developers to be found, just those poor Windows developers on every corner holding up signs, "_Will Code for TiVo Lifetime Subscriptions!_". Can't be internal problems at TiVo, can't be something wrong with their recruiting or salary, must be there just aren't any Mac developers out there!

Hey, can I get a recruiting fee if I forward the contact info for a half dozen good Mac programmers in the San Jose area?

Because we can all tell fixing TiVo desktop for the Mac is clearly a huuuuuge top-priority project! I mean, it's not like lots of other 3rd parties haven't been able to do things like this. Indeed fixes were posted here for months after Tiger shipped. Or is the problem one of getting a QuickTime-native TiVo-decoding filter put together, a project that would take under $10K & a week's time by any competent contract programmer familiar with Apple's QT toolchain?

No, I'll just stick with the theory there is something very wrong inside TiVo, that they're simply unable to hire or contract a Mac programmer due to some serious internal dysfunction, and the powers-that-be in TiVo's executive suite really don't care they've alienated an influential part of their user community.

It fits what we've seen so far a lot better, and is a lot more realistic then "_Windows developers out number Mac developers by about 1000 to 1_".


----------



## Jerry®

Duvs said:


> Let me know how it works out with the cable company box when you try to:
> 
> a) Play music or view photos on it that are stored on your Mac
> 
> b) Get any kind of recorded content off of it
> 
> The simple reason is that the cable companies may never provide this kind of functionality. I don't know about you but I wouldn't even attempt to install anything on my PC developed by Comcast, even their cable modem "install" CD breaks more PC's than it helps and all it is doing is modifying some IE registry settings and installing their crap support utils.
> 
> I believe Tivo to be smart enough to be doing the only thing it can do without the CableCard 2.0 spec, and that is to add mobility and multimedia features that the CableCo's can't touch for a while. Then once CableCard 2 is done and I can do OnDemand and PPV and truly use my Tivo as a replacement for by Cable Box, that will be a marketable device.
> 
> I know it's been said a million times but Mac's are about 4% of the computing world, since TiVo is a multimedia company it's possible their user base is more like 10 maybe even 15% Mac. Just have a little patience, they have publicly commited on their announcements to providing a Mac version of TTG. I'm also sure once it is out it will be superior to our Windows version in every way possible just like the last release.
> 
> Duvs


I'm really sick of the "Apple is only 4% of the market share...." excuse. That's no reason to exclude us. Come up with a better excuse.


----------



## tonyf3

So, tomorrow is May 1st 2006. Still wondering about the "Mid 2006" party line from TiVo.

Quote from MacWorld interview (11/21/05) with Jim Denney TiVo Vice President of Product Marketing:

The company has promised a Macintosh version, which Denney indicated theyre still working on.

We hope to have something in mid-2006, he told MacCentral.
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/11/21/tivointerview/index.php

When pressed for more details, Denney added, I would prefer to underpromise and overdeliver in this case. We havent set a date but were actively working on it.

So how's going Jimmy?
We saw it at CES in January, TiVo wasn't at NAB in April.
http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/TTG-Mac-5.JPG

It's 6 Months later, what's the story?
TiVo doesn't seem to have any trouble with the underpromise part. 
You need set a release date,..meet it, and overdeliver.
Then everyone will shutup, including myself.


----------



## unixb0y

I'll be trying this tonight.


----------



## megazone

Jerry® said:


> I'm really sick of the "Apple is only 4% of the market share...." excuse. That's no reason to exclude us. Come up with a better excuse.


Actually, yes, from a business standpoint that IS a reason to exclude Mac. My employer does the same thing - Windows-only software. I'd personally like to see Linux, but the business answer is simple - the return on investment for the additional development investment isn't large enough. There is a lot of Windows business to go after that doesn't require any new investment.

That's just how it is, development resources are finite. A lot of vendors simply ignore the Mac market completely because it is too small to justify the investment. And most of the vendors who do both Mac and Windows will do Windows first because they'll get more return from those resources.

That's just the reality of the business. The tiny marketshare is a very good reason for vendors to ignore the Mac, plain and simple. Same for Linux, FreeBSD, and other tiny minority share OSes.

Anyone who decides to use an OS that has a tiny market share has to accept that they will not enjoy the level of vendor support a dominant OS like Windows receives. And I say that as someone who has long run and used 'alternate' OSes like OS/2 Warp, Linux, and FreeBSD. My servers run Linux, my desktop runs XP - and mainly just for TiVo and iTunes, otherwise it'd be Linux too. (Probably not MacOS since the HW is too pricey, and I buy AMD not Intel. If they sold the OS for me to install on my Hw, I would consider it.)


----------



## Unix_Beard

You are not actually comparing the installed based of MacOS X users to Linux desktop users, are you? You are talking about a platform with widespread major developer support. Linux is a fine server OS but it's severely lacking as a consumer desktop operating system. Bringing Linux into the discussion is completely off-base. Major-developer support just does not exist for Linux. As a developer of consumer software products, there are simply two platforms to consider.


----------



## tommy3rd

megazone said:


> Actually, yes, from a business standpoint that IS a reason to exclude Mac. My employer does the same thing - Windows-only software. I'd personally like to see Linux, but the business answer is simple - the return on investment for the additional development investment isn't large enough. There is a lot of Windows business to go after that doesn't require any new investment.


What i don't understand is why programmers don't just use industry standards to make it cross platform...like mpg and aac instead of wmv and wma.
it's the same damn thing with websites. with proper coding, any browser should render webpages fine, but they code for IE instead and some things just don't work right using other browsers.


----------



## Quevar

tommy3rd said:


> it's the same damn thing with websites. with proper coding, any browser should render webpages fine, but they code for IE instead and some things just don't work right using other browsers.


It drives me nuts because IE is holding the web back from what it could be. There have been absolutely no additional features since it came out *5 years ago*.

I was building a website the other day and wanted to use CSS to make a shadow effect behind a picture. So, I looked around online and got something that rendered correctly on Safari. Then I thought I should try it with some other browsers, so I tried Firefox - looked the same as Safari, then tried OmniWeb 4 (not even the most recent version) - looked the same as the previous two browswers, then tried *IE 5.5* on the Mac - surprisingly, it looked the same as the three previous browsers, then I went to IE on a Windows machine - it didn't look anywhere close to what it should look like and couldn't even render the shadows.

Here is a link to the example:
http://homepage.mac.com/reedkb/shadow/index.html

It rendered correctly on:
Safari
Firefox
OmniWeb
IE 5.5 on Mac

It did not render correctly on:
IE 6 on Windows



megazone said:


> Actually, yes, from a business standpoint that IS a reason to exclude Mac.


But, back on the track of this thread, the 4% number is based on all sales of computers. Among home users, Macs are much more common, so it makes much more sense for them to support them. Especially if you go with the thought that Macs cost more (not necessarily true, but that is a whole other argument) and will probably entice a group of people that likes fancier gadgets, which TiVo falls into. There are probably a lot more Macs users that use TiVo than in the general population of computers that include cash registers and all the big organization computers that sit at work and not at home. But, we've seen how they treat the Mac users and because of that, I have seen several people decide not to get a TiVo.


----------



## megazone

Quevar said:


> It drives me nuts because IE is holding the web back from what it could be. There have been absolutely no additional features since it came out *5 years ago*.


AMEN! I HATE IE6 for this even more than the swiss-cheese security. At least for the latter I can just not use it, but as a web master I have to deal with it and all its hideous bugs and deficencies.

However, this helps: http://dean.edwards.name/ie7/

It is a JavaScript library for IE5-6 that inplements a number of XHTML/CSS features in JS as a 'patch'. It works fairly well too - it allows you to do a lot of standards compliant XHTML/CSS and have it work in IE.


----------



## tonyf3

Gee, it's almost "Mid 2006" and not peep. Still working hard I guess?


----------



## TydalForce

tonyf3 said:


> Gee, it's almost "Mid 2006" and not peep. Still working hard I guess?


The latest TiVo Desktop added the "GoBack" functionality, so I take that as a sign of progress. My take is, as they get things working for TTG, they're rolling some of those features into TiVo Desktop.


----------



## tonyf3

TydalForce said:


> The latest TiVo Desktop added the "GoBack" functionality, so I take that as a sign of progress. My take is, as they get things working for TTG, they're rolling some of those features into TiVo Desktop.


I hope so, it's June already. 
I'd expect "Mid 2006" to be within the next 6 weeks for TTG release on Mac.


----------



## tonyf3

Fyi:
Dennis was quoted on engadget.com
http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/04/mac-universal-tivo-desktop-released-hackable/


----------



## ZeoTiVo

tonyf3 said:


> Fyi:
> Dennis was quoted on engadget.com
> http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/04/mac-universal-tivo-desktop-released-hackable/


yah and the quote came round about from Dave Zatz site. Engadget sure does get its info from good places


----------



## tonyf3

ZeoTiVo said:


> yah and the quote came round about from Dave Zatz site. Engadget sure does get its info from good places


You know I really hadn't taken a good look at Dave's site before. He's got alot of great content. Thanks for the correction.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/ttg.htm


----------



## davezatz

Thanks for the positive feedback! 

(Like everyone else I'm anxiously awaiting Mac TTG. While I'm a Windows professional, I'd like to move more of my personal life onto the Mac platform. 6 weeks would be nice, but I'm afraid to even guess. I don't think the early switch to Intel has helped small companies like TiVo and Slingbox any. As it is I'm wondering where the iPod/PSP support for the PC desktop is - it's been beta tested for MONTHS now. Unless TiVo is waiting to simultaniously release an updated TiVo Desktop for both platforms.)


----------



## tonyf3

You're Welocome Dave.

On another note, my job gave me a 60 day demo unit of the 17" Intel Mac Book Pro.
I installed "Parallells" on it http://www.parallels.com/ the windows virtual machine app
and a copy of Windows XP. The performance is impressive. It's not at all like running Virtual PC.
When I tried VPC on my 15" PPC it worked ok, but it was slow and it couldn't connect to my TiVo. I intalled TiVo desktop 2.3, + TTG and "voila" I can pull down shows. I install Windows Media 10 Player and then I discover that I need a codec, but which one? I tried the NVidia 30 day trial, but the end result was audio only no picture.

Interesting so far, will have to try the other codecs. I hope this is easier an more elegant in OSX native TTG. (That's coming any day now?)


----------



## davezatz

tonyf3 said:


> I install Windows Media 10 Player and then I discover that I need a codec, but which one? I tried the NVidia 30 day trial, but the end result was audio only no picture.


Probably the quickest and easiest way to get TTG shows playing in a VM like that without codec fiddling is to get the Windows version of VLC. It is both a player and has a codec built right in.

Speaking of, I just pre-ordered Parallel's though I don't have an _Intel_ Mac yet.


----------



## Fofer

tonyf3 said:


> I installed "Parallells" on it http://www.parallels.com/ the windows virtual machine app and a copy of Windows XP. The performance is impressive. It's not at all like running Virtual PC.


That's because it's not emulating (like VirtualPC.) It's virtualization. Big difference, and that's why it's fast. You're running WinXP on Intel hardware. It just so happens to be running inside a Mac OS X window. 

Just don't gloat too loudly to TiVo about this, it might give them some ideas about our anxiously awaited Mac-native version of TTG.


----------



## tonyf3

Fofer said:


> Just don't gloat too loudly to TiVo about this, it might give them some ideas about our anxiously awaited Mac-native version of TTG.


Absolutley!, 
I have 7 Mac's & 2 TiVo's at home. Half are relativley new spanning from
OSX 10.3.9 to 10.4.6. So I'm not going to be in a position to take advantage of the new intel hardware for awhile.

So, I'd rather run the anxiously awaited Mac-native version of TTG!
Which will hopefully be better than the Windows version of TTG.
Did I mention I never got it to play video even after installing codecs and WM10.
It was audio only?

Anytime now guys!


----------



## davezatz

tonyf3 said:


> Did I mention I never got it to play video even after installing codecs and WM10. It was audio only?


See above, and download VLC for PC. 

Yes, I'm also in favor of a native Mac solution. At the moment I'm running 10.3 on non-Intel hardware. Speaking of VLC, Mac TTG file associations pointed to VLC based on the pictures megazone took at CES. Makes sense since QT has problems with MPEG2, even with the plugin. Wonder if the DVD software can handle it. Anyway, I'm probably getting ahead of myself... what will be released cannot probably be determined from a few screenshots.


----------



## tonyf3

davezatz said:


> See above, and download VLC for PC.
> 
> Yes, I'm also in favor of a native Mac solution. At the moment I'm running 10.3 on non-Intel hardware. Speaking of VLC, Mac TTG file associations pointed to VLC based on the pictures megazone took at CES. Makes sense since QT has problems with MPEG2, even with the plugin. Wonder if the DVD software can handle it. Anyway, I'm probably getting ahead of myself... what will be released cannot probably be determined from a few screenshots.


Thanks Dave. 
This is too funny, I was just looking at the screen shots from megazone again and noticed that the preferred playback app was VLC.

I also noticed that some mpegs that I couldn't play on other my other Macs did play on my G5 that had Final Cut 5 HD on it.


----------



## tonyf3

davezatz said:


> See above, and download VLC for PC.
> 
> Yes, I'm also in favor of a native Mac solution. At the moment I'm running 10.3 on non-Intel hardware. Speaking of VLC, Mac TTG file associations pointed to VLC based on the pictures megazone took at CES. Makes sense since QT has problems with MPEG2, even with the plugin. Wonder if the DVD software can handle it. Anyway, I'm probably getting ahead of myself... what will be released cannot probably be determined from a few screenshots.


Gotta try this before I have to send the 17" demo unit back, thanks Dave.


----------



## cwoody222

TiVo just released v2.3 which includes - for $25 - automatic conversion for TiVo files on iPods, Treo's, PSPs, etc.

Of course it's Windows-only.

Thanks again, TiVo - for a big, fat, nothing!


----------



## tonyf3

cwoody222 said:


> TiVo just released v2.3 which includes - for $25 - automatic conversion for TiVo files on iPods, Treo's, PSPs, etc.
> 
> Of course it's Windows-only.
> 
> Thanks again, TiVo - for a big, fat, nothing!


Son of a B____! 
They're probably preparing new excuses or blaming Apple why this isn't out yet.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

I don't get the panic. The Mac Desktop is a completely different product, with a completely different code base (heck, the Mac and Windows desktops aren't even coded in the same _language_ for the most part.) I wouldn't expect them to hold up a release on one platform to wait for the other, with the two being as different as they are.

The Mac product has been moving forward in the meantime, albeit in ways that are not terribly visible to the average end-user.



tonyf3 said:


> They're probably preparing new excuses or blaming Apple why this isn't out yet.


Excuses for what, exactly? As I read it, they haven't missed the timeframe Pony mentioned for release.

This is mostly an aside, but, having worked with, but never for, Apple for well over a decade -- they don't always make the most cooperative partner to work with.

TiVo's Windows Desktop team got a feature out the door. Congrats to the Windows Desktop team!

I just hope the Mac Desktop team will meet with similar success with regard to their release.


----------



## cwoody222

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> I don't get the panic. The Mac Desktop is a completely different product, with a completely different code base (heck, the Mac and Windows desktops aren't even coded in the same _language_ for the most part.) I wouldn't expect them to hold up a release on one platform to wait for the other, with the two being as different as they are.


I don't expect one to articifically "hold up" the other either.

But this is - yet again - the case of the Windows version blazing well past the Mac version in terms of features.

We were ALMOST caught up... meaning if and when the Mac ToGo version was ever released we'd finally - a year and a half later - be equal in features.

Now the Windows version has added MORE features. Making the chasm that much wider.

Will the Mac ToGo version - vaporware that it is right now - offer the iPod conversion stuff too? Or will it only bring it up to date with Jan 2005 features of the Windows version?

Sadly, my assumption is the latter.

Prove me wrong, TiVo. Have this magical Mac version contain the EXACT SAME feature set as whatever the current Windows version does. Otherwise, don't bother.

I don't want to play catch-up AGAIN...


----------



## Fofer

A first version of TiVo To Go for Mac isn't even out yet.

It was announced in January 2004. That's two and a half years ago.


----------



## bedelman

cwoody222 said:


> Prove me wrong, TiVo. Have this magical Mac version contain the EXACT SAME feature set as whatever the current Windows version does.


Or better yet -- provide direct integration with iTunes, iPhoto (oh - TiVo Desktop for Mac already does those, doesn't it  ), and iMovie


----------



## TydalForce

bedelman said:


> Or better yet -- provide direct integration with iTunes, iPhoto (oh - TiVo Desktop for Mac already does those, doesn't it  ), and iMovie


Maybe throw in one or two more bonus features for us Mac people to make up for it...

FrontRow integration? Send-To-iDVD button? Instant Popcorn button that makes buttery salty delights come out the CD-ROM slot?

OK that last one might be a violation of the DMCA or something, but its nice to dream ;-)


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

bedelman said:


> Or better yet -- provide direct integration with iTunes, iPhoto (oh - TiVo Desktop for Mac already does those, doesn't it  ), and iMovie


Unfortunately, iMovie (and iDVD) support would have to come from Apple. iMovie uses QuickTime to play/import video, but TiVo video (at least as it exists when used on Windows) is muxed MPEG-2, and MPEG-1 and 2 are special beasts in QuickTime. From the current iMovie HD's online help:



iMovie HD 6.0.2 Help said:


> *iMovie does not work with muxed MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 clips*
> 
> When using any version of iMovie, please note that you cannot import muxed (multiplexed) MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 video clips into projects. If you try, one or more of the following things can happen:
> 
> <...snipped symptoms and technique to check for muxed MPEG...>
> 
> Note: If you have the QuickTime MPEG-2 playback component installed, it may not change the issues described above. Editing muxed MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 files is not supported in iMovie, even with this component installed.


----------



## TydalForce

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Unfortunately, iMovie (and iDVD) support would have to come from Apple. iMovie uses QuickTime to play/import video, but TiVo video (at least as it exists when used on Windows) is muxed MPEG-2, and MPEG-1 and 2 are special beasts in QuickTime. From the current iMovie HD's online help:


Yeah, true. But, if TiVo built a TiVo codec for QuickTime.... and maybe that's exactly what they're doing (and why its taking so long?) ... then TiVo videos could play in QuickTime Player (no need for yet another download like VLC or MPlayer) and could go right into iDVD

Its nice to dream, isn't it? (c:


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

TydalForce said:


> Yeah, true. But, if TiVo built a TiVo codec for QuickTime.... and maybe that's exactly what they're doing (and why its taking so long?) ... then TiVo videos could play in QuickTime Player (no need for yet another download like VLC or MPlayer) and could go right into iDVD


Doing that for MPEG-2 involves writing quite a bit more than a codec (import component, media handler components, possibly both video and audio codec components.) The key for iDVD is making the muxed track look like two different tracks, one audio, one video (that's what Apple's component fails to do that results in the iMovie and iDVD incompatibility -- they see an "MPEG track" with audio and video "characteristics" instead.) That's challenging, to say the least (I doubt Apple would have implemented MPEG the way they did if it weren't.)

They could also try implementing things such that they demuxed the data during transfer, and wrote out a two-track QuickTime movie instead of something that was truly MPEG-in-an-MPEG-wrapper. That might reduce the problem to only a decompressor component for the video, but they could potentially run into trouble with audio and video sync.

But it is nice to dream.


----------



## tonyf3

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> I don't get the panic. The Mac Desktop is a completely different product, with a completely different code base (heck, the Mac and Windows desktops aren't even coded in the same _language_ for the most part.) I wouldn't expect them to hold up a release on one platform to wait for the other, with the two being as different as they are.
> 
> The Mac product has been moving forward in the meantime, albeit in ways that are not terribly visible to the average end-user.
> 
> Excuses for what, exactly? As I read it, they haven't missed the timeframe Pony mentioned for release.
> 
> This is mostly an aside, but, having worked with, but never for, Apple for well over a decade -- they don't always make the most cooperative partner to work with.
> 
> TiVo's Windows Desktop team got a feature out the door. Congrats to the Windows Desktop team!
> 
> I just hope the Mac Desktop team will meet with similar success with regard to their release.


This may be a bad analogy but here it goes anyway.

Let's look at it this way. Most people have cable tv, and the average cost is $60 a month for expanded basic cable as an example. But, you have a Panasonic TV and your cable company only supports SONY. So, you don't get all the channels. You get maybe 3/4 of them. Would you still want to pay the $60 for 3/4 of the channels? Or would you expect to be paying $45. When you complain about the inequality, they tell you we're working hard on Panasonic support for 1 1/2 yrs. Or go buy a SONY TV.

I think I'd rather pay the $45 bucks, or have the support. Not pay more, for less than everone else is getting.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

tonyf3 said:


> This may be a bad analogy but here it goes anyway.
> 
> Let's look at it this way. Most people have cable tv, and the average cost is $60 a month for expanded basic cable as an example. But, you have a Panasonic TV and your cable company only supports SONY. So, you don't get all the channels. You get maybe 3/4 of them. Would you still want to pay the $60 for 3/4 of the channels? Or would you expect to be paying $45. When you complain about the inequality, they tell you we're working hard on Panasonic support for 1 1/2 yrs. Or go buy a SONY TV.
> 
> I think I'd rather pay the $45 bucks, or have the support. Not pay more, for less than everone else is getting.


I understand your analogy, Tony -- but that's addressing the larger Macintosh support issue, not the current panic (I have some doubts about the validity of the analogy's logic, since Linux users and, to some extent, people who don't have computers at all fit the argument equally well.)

What I don't get is the reaction to a the 2.3 Windows release. Pony said mid-2006 for Mac TTG. Mid-2006 isn't over yet. He never said there wouldn't be other releases of other products in the interim -- in fact, quite the opposite is true. He certainly never said "no new Windows releases until we have a Mac version ready." Yet, everyone is reacting as if this is some grand surprise that requires additional angst, when it seems to me it's exactly what we should have been expecting given TiVo's press and Pony's comments here.

If we get to early/mid-September (i.e. past the promised period plus a small amount to allow for slippage -- it is software, after all) without a new release or new information, then I can easily see the kind of reaction we're seeing now.


----------



## Fofer

Two. And a Half. YEARS.


----------



## mattman

tonyf3 said:


> This may be a bad analogy but here it goes anyway.
> 
> Let's look at it this way. Most people have cable tv, and the average cost is $60 a month for expanded basic cable as an example. But, you have a Panasonic TV and your cable company only supports SONY. So, you don't get all the channels. You get maybe 3/4 of them. Would you still want to pay the $60 for 3/4 of the channels? Or would you expect to be paying $45. When you complain about the inequality, they tell you we're working hard on Panasonic support for 1 1/2 yrs. Or go buy a SONY TV.
> 
> I think I'd rather pay the $45 bucks, or have the support. Not pay more, for less than everone else is getting.


I get the analogy as well, and I am upset that I am unable to enjoy the benefits of TiVoToGo without some kludge (such as using my work Dell laptop to get the shows and convert them to a usable format), but my thought is that both of my TiVos still do the thing that I bought them for, which is to record TV without a hitch (most of the time). I prefer to watch TV from the comfort of my bedroom or living room, and would only use TTG occasionally, but I agree that I would likely use it more if it was easier to use for me, as a Mac user.

As for paying less, I am paying the same amount for the service as when I started using it, actually less if you count the discount on the second unit. So while I can complain about the lack of TTG for my chosen platform, and do. I don't see that I owe any less money for the service, which is the same as when I got the unit originally, and improved in many ways.

Just my 2 cents again, without diminishing the frustration I feel at still not having the benefits of TiVoToGo.

Matt


----------



## Puppy76

Well, we got the new Tivo Desktop for Windows...and no Mac. I was really hoping they'd come out at the same time.

I'm toying with getting a Macbook or Pro, so this is getting increasingly important. I'd have to either give up on a Mac, or give up on Tivo (assuming some other DVR can do Mac-compatible formats)


----------



## megazone

Puppy76 said:


> I'm toying with getting a Macbook or Pro, so this is getting increasingly important. I'd have to either give up on a Mac, or give up on Tivo (assuming some other DVR can do Mac-compatible formats)


There is no other DVR on the market today that I'm aware of that supports transfers to a PC *or* Mac. You could get something like the Elgato EyeTV and use a software DVR on your Mac, that's about it.

Maybe an old ReplayTV and 3rd party software like DVArchive, I *think* that runs on Mac.

Basically, TiVo is it.


----------



## superdlux

It's the lack of information. Most companies, when releasing software on both platforms say something to the effect of:

We are proud to release the Windows XP version today the Mac version will follow in a few months, etc. etc. But nothing more than, well  nothing.


----------



## braunfamily

A TiVo newbie here: So, Here we are at 6-25-2006 and although the TiVoDesktop loads, where'd it go? Incompatible or funky download? Tried several times on this, between Version Tracker and the TiVo site, bit nothin'! Any MAC help appreciated!

Otherwise, love this thing!


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

braunfamily said:


> A TiVo newbie here: So, Here we are at 6-25-2006 and although the TiVoDesktop loads, where'd it go? Incompatible or funky download? Tried several times on this, between Version Tracker and the TiVo site, bit nothin'! Any MAC help appreciated!


When you say "it loads, but where'd it go?" -- are you asking about where it was installed? If so, it's a pane in System Preferences.

If not, is it not starting? Something else?


----------



## cwoody222

megazone said:


> Maybe an old ReplayTV and 3rd party software like DVArchive, I *think* that runs on Mac.


Yes it does.

I have DVArchive installed on my Mac and can transfer shows in either direction (to or from the Mac) and can play ReplayTV files on my Mac also.


----------



## tonyf3

So I guess the answer for June TTG support is, uh... no.
Since it's now July.

Is this really that hard guys?

So, they've got roughly 2 more months on the whole "MID 2006" thing
before I start in on them about that.

Hey! but wait, I got the KID Zone service update last night. Whoo, Whoo.
Even though I have 3 kids of varying ages I really don't care.
Amazing, this enhanced service feature got done and added but, Mac TTG...well you know the story. Don't get me started.


----------



## Puppy76

*Whistles to himself*

*Stares longinly at Macbook*


----------



## cwoody222

Oh, but wait. It's still not officially the end of "mid" 2006. So I guess we're not officially allowed to complain.

I guess the Windows folks won't let us complain until the Fall Equinox or something...


----------



## Puppy76

LOL! Hmm... mid 2006. I guess May, June, July, August could ligitimately be termed "mid 2006". So they've got another two months...

They need to get this out though so I can plan for the fall season. I need something with dual tuners, but I literally need to either give up Mac, or give up Tivo if they don't get this out...


----------



## megazone

Just write it off and expect it will never be released. Then if it is, it is a nice surprise.


----------



## tonyf3

At least you've seen it.

This is more about their lack of communication, and taking 1 1/2 years to deal with it.
As far as writing it off, I'd rather they would say it's not going to happen. 
Then I'd get out my screwdriver and just hack the box and call it a day.
But, really don't want to do that if I don't have to.

So in the mean time they keep blowin sunshine about all their other neat new features while 
wait and stew for this one.

Now they have .wma in beta.


----------



## gonzotek

tonyf3 said:


> Now they have .wma in beta.


Tony, the wma plugin is a third-party plugin released 3 years ago by a community member, not TiVo. I see you've posted in that thread, but you may have missed that the OP's date is 07-30-2003. Dan203 recently released a universal audio plugin for TD for Windows that uses any available DirectShow audio filter to playback various filetypes besides mp3. On the mac side, Dennis Wilkinson has found that the lame transcoder provides similar features for TD and aac files. All of these were possible because of TiVo intentionally putting in software hooks to allow third parties to expand TiVo Desktop's capabilities.


----------



## bedelman

This is not a solution to the current situation that there's no TiVoToGo for Mac OSX yet -- but we just got a new MacBook Pro for my wife who uses a Windows only based pattern making program named PatternMaster (from Wild Ginger). She had been using Virtual PC along with Windows 98SE but as the pattern making program had features added -- it just got slower. And she had other machine embroidery software that required Windows XP (which is almost unusable under Virtual PC)

I installed Parallels along with Windows XP Pro and had her pattern making program working very nicely -- and I used the Windows XP license from Virtual PC (there's documentation at http://www.nu2.nu/bootcd/wxp and http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20060527175405403 on how to make the Windows XP CD included with Virtual PC to be bootable)

I installed TiVo Desktop 2.3 last night on it -- and it looks to be working well. Video playback with the Windows Media Player also worked without a hitch.


----------



## ccooperev

bedelman said:


> This is not a solution to the current situation that there's no TiVoToGo for Mac OSX yet -- but we just got a new MacBook Pro for my wife who uses a Windows only based pattern making program named PatternMaster (from Wild Ginger). She had been using Virtual PC along with Windows 98SE but as the pattern making program had features added -- it just got slower. And she had other machine embroidery software that required Windows XP (which is almost unusable under Virtual PC)
> 
> I installed Parallels along with Windows XP Pro and had her pattern making program working very nicely -- and I used the Windows XP license from Virtual PC (there's documentation at http://www.nu2.nu/bootcd/wxp and http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20060527175405403 on how to make the Windows XP CD included with Virtual PC to be bootable)
> 
> I installed TiVo Desktop 2.3 last night on it -- and it looks to be working well. Video playback with the Windows Media Player also worked without a hitch.


And this solution would leave millions of G4 Mac users in the dark...


----------



## mikegrb

ccooperev said:


> And this solution would leave millions of G4 Mac users in the dark...


And G5!


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

ccooperev said:


> And this solution would leave millions of G4 Mac users in the dark...


Thus Bob's very first line: "This is not a solution to the current situation that there's no TiVoToGo for Mac OSX yet..."


----------



## bedelman

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Thus Bob's very first line: "This is not a solution to the current situation that there's no TiVoToGo for Mac OSX yet..."


Thanks Dennis

Those who are familiar with my posts (here and elsewhere) know that I'm very much a big Macintosh fan/user. Only my wife's new laptop is an Intel MacBook Pro. All the other Macintoshes in the house (all eight of them) are not.

I just thought others might be interested in what I found to be the case with using Parallels Desktop.


----------



## homertime

It's just a shame that we've waited patiently, seen other seemingly more ridiculous updates, and we still lack mac support.

It pisses me off that they offer this "paid" service to send to iPod PSP, etc, before they release a TivoToGo for mac. This just makes it clear that they're looking to make money, and aren't dedicated to ALL of their customers.


After my 12 month gift subscription ceases, I'm terminating Tivo - I'm not going to pay for a service that gives features to only SOME of its customers.

There are a lot of good DVRs out there through cable providers that have much more seamless program guide integration and NO channel change/information lag.

I was impressed with Tivo the first month I had it, and have now learned that it's merely an expensive service with mediocre support. For $13 monthly Tivo should be a whole lot better then it is and SHOULD have mac support.


----------



## derekcbart

Here's another problem to add to the Mac TTG mix. I have Virtual PC and have been using it and the "direct show dump" application to convert the files to burn in Roxio's Toast Titanium. Toast was just updated to version 7.1 and it appears to have killed the ability to burn these converted files. All other video files burn to DVD correctly, but any TTG-DSD-MPG files crash Toast. I also cannot find a link to the 7.0.2 updater so that I can reinstall Toast and only update it to 7.0.2. I have a support ticket opened with Roxio, but I have not heard back from them yet. If anyone knows where I can find the 7.0.2 updater I would be very appreciative.


----------



## Puppy76

What the heck is going on? Is this a DRM issue? My understanding is Tivo uses some Microsoft DRM right now, and Microsoft dosen't bother supporting it on the Mac, so that's why this dosen't work? 

If so, they need to change it, or at least admit that nothing's going to happen, it'll never be compatible, so that Mac users can avoid Tivo if they need Tivo2Go, and not just keep waiting.

The Mac SHOULD be such a great fit with Tivo


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Puppy76 said:


> What the heck is going on? Is this a DRM issue? My understanding is Tivo uses some Microsoft DRM right now, and Microsoft dosen't bother supporting it on the Mac, so that's why this dosen't work?


According to TiVoPony, they're working on it, and he gave a rough timeframe of mid-2006. If you split the year into thirds (early/mid/late) that means "mid" ends August 30th.

TiVo doesn't use Microsoft DRM (after all, they're encrypting on Linux). It's their own DRM algorithm, but on Windows they implemented the decryption as a DirectShow filter (which makes perfect sense on Windows.) On the Mac, the ideal thing would be to mimic what they did on Windows, but writing a QuickTime component (or components) instead. Unfortunately, Apple's MPEG-2 components for QuickTime are notoriously difficult to work with and more than a little limited, so that throws another wrench into the works. The last public showing of a Mac TTG build (which megazone had posted pictures of over at TiVoLovers (http://community.livejournal.com/tivolovers/) was using VLC for playback. To further complicate things, it appears (although this is unconfirmed) that they lost their internal Mac developer, needed to replace him, and spent a fairly long time doing so (and yes, this should be a project that can be managed by a single coder with some QA backup.)


----------



## ccoulson

I once worked for a software company that defined "mid-YYYY" as anything other than Jan 1 and Dec 31


----------



## cwoody222

Which all translates to "wah wah, TiVo... cry me a river".

THEY selected a method they knew wouldn't work on Macs. THEY'VE chosen to be purposely vague and treat Mac users as second-class citizens. THEY took forever to find a Mac developer right around the block from Apple's HQ.

This is their disaster from start to finish. They get absolutely no sympathy from me whatsoever.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

cwoody222 said:


> They get absolutely no sympathy from me whatsoever.


We know. 

The only arguments you'll get from me on the "of their own making" issue are Apple's MPEG implementation (which isn't good, and isn't TiVo's fault) and the ease or difficulty of finding a Mac developer -- _even_ around the corner from Apple (they need someone who understands building QuickTime components, assuming they're going the QuickTime route, and that's a narrow field within a narrow field.)

All that said, we asked for a timeframe, and were eventually _given_ a timeframe. That timeframe hasn't passed yet. No real point in stressing over it until it does.


----------



## Puppy76

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> All that said, we asked for a timeframe, and were eventually _given_ a timeframe. That timeframe hasn't passed yet. No real point in stressing over it until it does.


Grrr. Alright, that's true 

Still, geez, it's been forever. Hopefully if they release it it won't just break with Apple's next OS or something like that.


----------



## TydalForce

Puppy76 said:


> Grrr. Alright, that's true
> 
> Still, geez, it's been forever. Hopefully if they release it it won't just break with Apple's next OS or something like that.


Actually, I'd expect it to be more likely to break with an update to QuickTime than an update to OS X - assuming, of course, they use the QuickTime engine.

Part of me wouldn't be surprised to see them grab some open-source engine (VLC? Mplayer?) and wedge it into TTGforOSX to handle the mpeg-2 stuff. In that case, QT won't have anything to do with it...

another ramble, nothing to see here... lol


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

TydalForce said:


> Actually, I'd expect it to be more likely to break with an update to QuickTime than an update to OS X...


Same here.



TydalForce said:


> Part of me wouldn't be surprised to see them grab some open-source engine (VLC? Mplayer?) and wedge it into TTGforOSX to handle the mpeg-2 stuff. In that case, QT won't have anything to do with it...


I've been wondering about that myself. The only thing I don't know is if using one of the open source equivalents would get them into the position of having to release their own source, which may or may not be a good thing from their POV, DRM-wise. Thinking about various open source licenses in conjunction with commercial software usually just makes my head hurt.


----------



## gonzotek

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Thinking about various open source licenses in conjunction with commercial software usually just makes my head hurt.


Mine too, but at least that's an area where TiVo has a fair degree of experience.


----------



## Dan203

TydalForce said:


> Part of me wouldn't be surprised to see them grab some open-source engine (VLC? Mplayer?) and wedge it into TTGforOSX to handle the mpeg-2 stuff. In that case, QT won't have anything to do with it...


The demo they showed at CES was using VLC. However I believe the UI had a selection box which allowed it to use either VLC or Quicktime.

Dan


----------



## gonzotek

Dan203 said:


> The demo they showed at CES was using VLC. However I believe the UI had a selection box which allowed it to use either VLC or Quicktime.
> 
> Dan


If we're thinking of the same picure, I think that was the standard mac file info dialog. The selection box just tells the OS what program to pass a filetype to, same thing is available in Windows(and most modern OS's these days I'd imagine). Doesn't mean the program can handle the data it's passed(e.g. imagine passing Paint an mp3).


----------



## Bob Williams

gonzotek said:


> Doesn't mean the program can handle the data it's passed(e.g. imagine passing Paint an mp3).


Actually, it does. OS X, like previous Mac OS versions, includes a mechanism for apps to tell the OS what file types they can handle. The OS then uses this information to build the Open With list. As a result, you won't get an option to open an MP3 file in a paint program unless the paint program can handle an MP3 file (and in this age of QuickTime integration, you may be surprised what programs can handle - for instance, the BBEdit plain-text editor has no qualms about opening images, even though you can't do much with them once open).

That said, although the program is technically guaranteed to open the file, it may not do what you expect. This is especially the case for something so basic as a text file. For instance, many programs use text files to store configuration data, and will thus offer to open *any* text file even though they only know what to do with *one* text file. As you get to even slightly more proprietary/purpose-specific file types, however, this problem basically vanishes.

I'm not really familiar with the equivalent mechanisms in other OSes, but I would assume they operate similarly. If not, then those OSes' developers came up short.


----------



## TydalForce

you can actually override this "i can open that!" check... on occasion, its missing something I know it can open... or, maybe you just want to see what happens...

if you control-click on a file, select Open With, and at the bottom there's an option "Other".... 
select that, and then when the browse window appears, one of the selectors at the top says "Recommended Applications" - if you change this to "All Applications", you can have anything try to open anything.

Granted, that's usually not necessary. But if you're feeling silly, try to have Address Book open an mp3 or something :b


----------



## gonzotek

Bob Williams said:


> Actually, it does. OS X, like previous Mac OS versions, includes a mechanism for apps to tell the OS what file types they can handle. The OS then uses this information to build the Open With list. As a result, you won't get an option to open an MP3 file in a paint program unless the paint program can handle an MP3 file (and in this age of QuickTime integration, you may be surprised what programs can handle - for instance, the BBEdit plain-text editor has no qualms about opening images, even though you can't do much with them once open).
> 
> That said, although the program is technically guaranteed to open the file, it may not do what you expect. This is especially the case for something so basic as a text file. For instance, many programs use text files to store configuration data, and will thus offer to open *any* text file even though they only know what to do with *one* text file. As you get to even slightly more proprietary/purpose-specific file types, however, this problem basically vanishes.
> 
> I'm not really familiar with the equivalent mechanisms in other OSes, but I would assume they operate similarly. If not, then those OSes' developers came up short.


No disrespect intended, but I think you've missed my point. I've owned pre-OSX Macs and worked with newer ones in the recent past, and I am familiar with the equivalent mechanisms on Mac OS and Windows systems(and they work very similarly indeed). TydalForce has it right, the selection box doesn't do anything other than manipulate associations, whether automatically based on registered filetypes or manually overridden. In any event, I was just pointing out to Dan that the UI he was referring to wasn't a part of TiVo Desktop, nor did it give us any indication what TiVo had done, other than use VLC, to get playback working on OSX. 
http://community.livejournal.com/tivolovers/253645.html


----------



## tonyf3

Hmmm, June,....July.....August? August will make it 8 months since the demo at CES. 
I wonder what's holding them back.


----------



## cwoody222

Their own ineptitude? PR-friendly features like KidZone that barely anyone cares about? The fact that they don't care?


----------



## bedelman

cwoody222 said:


> Their own ineptitude? PR-friendly features like KidZone that barely anyone cares about? The fact that they don't care?


More likely the legal department that requires that some form of DRM is being used (and that must match what's being used already) -- and implementing a DRM on the Macintosh side is taking a lot more effort than expected.


----------



## cwoody222

So then... poor planning? Not putting enough resources to the task to meet the goal in a reasonable timeframe?

This is THEIR program with THEIR DRM. This has been their decision... and their holdup... since day one.

They can't blame anyone but themselves.

And since iPod and PSP videos from the new TiVo Desktop can be played with nothing but a watermark, if they wanted to do the same thing for Mac users who have been waiting almost a year and a half they could do so... and they could do so at any day.

They choose not to. Their delay. Their decisions. Their fault.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

cwoody222 said:


> And since iPod and PSP videos from the new TiVo Desktop can be played with nothing but a watermark, if they wanted to do the same thing for Mac users who have been waiting almost a year and a half they could do so... and they could do so at any day.


Er, no.

What, exactly, would apply that watermark? The TiVo itself doesn't have the horsepower, which means you'd still need to decompress and recompress the video on the Mac (meaning you'd still need to decode the DRM on the Mac, and then you'd need an encoder license as well.) Watermarking, in this case, solves nothing -- in fact, it _adds_ work.

You're right that TiVo is the one making the decisions, and that "the buck stops there"; that doesn't mean that trying to go the QuickTime route didn't slow them down unexpectedly, as Bob infers.


----------



## cwoody222

Who wants to bet what comes out first - TiVo ToGo for Mac or Windows Vista?


----------



## Puppy76

Vista :down:


----------



## tonyf3

I do hope that when and if TTG finally comes out for Mac I'm not seriously underwhelmed.
That would just be the icing on the cake. I'll just be sitting there going,.."I waited 2 years for this?"


----------



## AnteL0pe

tonyf3 said:


> I do hope that when and if TTG finally comes out for Mac I'm not seriously underwhelmed.
> That would just be the icing on the cake. I'll just be sitting there going,.."I waited 2 years for this?"


Would you expect anything else? If it isnt tightly integrated with iTunes/iMovie/iDVD it will be underwhelming. Im sure there wont be the issues that existed on Windows when it first came out (burning issues, requirements to purchase certain software, CODEC issues), but it wont be what Mac users are used to.


----------



## cat rancher

Wow, still nothing... What can I say? does my G5 even really need tivo to go now? I keep thinking about all I could do with it, but at this point I wonder if I even care anymore. 

Also, my "TIVO RECOMENDED" netgear wireless adapter (WG111NA - the one with the cute tivo guy sticker on it) is still only getting 30% signal after the last update that fracked it up A YEAR AGO!!!! (ok it was 8-25-05 according to my post at the time) Tivo to go would be useless to me anyway since they are not going to attempt to fix what went wrong with THE ONE TRULY recomended adapter sold on the planet. (At least until they came out with their own brand) I HAVE WAITED A YEAR!!! So it's not just Mac's they have a problem with...

Why do I even let it stress me out? I bought my wife a GPS system for her car but I have to go to my brother in laws house to load maps onto it since it isn't supported for Macs and we both have macs. (Garmin has announced that they would be adding Mac support by the end of this year though)

I'm not a gamer, but I do play one game on my Mac: Halo (halo 1 of course, there are no plans to realease 2 or 3 to mac. Nice of microsoft to buy out the only company to make good games for Macs and then stop them from making more.) My G5 has a craptacular ATI Radeon 9600 for a video card so I can't turn any of the video settings in Halo up and keep it playable. It's only $400 for the ATI pro mac x800 card, but I can't justify spending that to play one game - I might as well buy an x-box 360 and all three versions of Halo. The same card is about $150 for a PC. All the while I have to listen to my brother in law and his wife rib me because they have no problems playing games on their lame Dell xps. Just the other day I mentioned the problem with the graphics card and my sister in law asked if I had seen the most recent Apple commercial and then snickered.

I don't know why I still love my Mac, but I do. Anytime I have to use a PC I get the same sick feeling I would if I were to find out I was getting audited by the IRS. It just feels like shopping at K-mart or something.


----------



## Dr_Zoidberg

cwoody222 said:


> Who wants to bet what comes out first - TiVo ToGo for Mac or Windows Vista?


Duke Nukem Forever


----------



## StStephen

Anytime I need a good chuckle I read a few pages of mac whining. Thanks for keeping it up!


----------



## briguymaine

@ cat rancher


Holy cow, buy a PC already (or an iMac with Intel and Boot Camp). You pay a bit more for a mac because you are getting a better machine when you buy it, a stock mac will outlive a stock PC anyday. Obviously down the road there will be better components that you can upgrade to. It will cost more to upgrade because 3% of the population will even remotely find the parts useful and maybe 25% of those folks will actually buy those parts. 

I feel your pain but come on, you decided on a mac and I'm sure you knew the limitations going into it.


----------



## Puppy76

Dr_Zoidberg said:


> Duke Nukem Forever


In all seriousness...there's a good chance of that 

Hey, PREY came out, and that was announced when, '95? Even weirder, it turned out to be a really great game!


----------



## Ripcord2

Yeah, I've just about gotten to the point where I've completely lost patience. No HD and no Mac support has pretty much eroded all my good will and after 3 years I'm looking at other options.

I'm very tempted to at least TRY the Comcast DVR box, despite no (real) Mac support. I've had an HDTV for a while, and just bought a nice 42" plasma that just feels like it's going to waste. I'd like to put some HDTV on it!

Does anyone have recommendations on a decent alternative?


----------



## rmclaugh

A lot of people have been waiting a long time for this support.
My main complaint about this whole fiasco is that, while I paid the same price as someone else did for their TiVo, and I pay the same monthly fee (or one time fee) as someone else, I get LESS out of my TiVo.
When I bought my two TiVo's (over a year and a half ago) TiVo was PROMISING mac support. Now, almost two years AFTER T2G came out, nada, zilch and someone has the nerve to post about "You knew what you were getting into?"
Apparently TiVo didn't, so how could I?

At the very least, TiVo, admit you aren't going to do it and cut the price for the Mac users. You can disable the T2G links on the TiVo's remotely. 

This is like me and a friend buying the same car, same price, same specs, but his goes 50% faster than mine.... If no replacement were available, I'd expect a discount, wouldn't you?


----------



## Budget_HT

This is more like your friend's car able to go 100 mph on roads available to him and yours can only go 50 mph on roads available to you. Both cars have exactly the same capabilities, but yours is limited by where you drive it.

All TiVo's come with the same TTG capability, but since you drive a Mac instead of a PC, your combination has limitations.

That said, we all look forward to Mac TTG from TiVo. And they did say a long time ago that we should have seen it by now.


----------



## tonyf3

StStephen said:


> Anytime I need a good chuckle I read a few pages of mac whining. Thanks for keeping it up!


People in this thread have been able to avoid this kind of petty OS bashing for almost 2 year now. If you've read through you'd know that, and there is no place for it here.

However, a poke in the eye deserves a poke right back.
Anytime there's a new windows virus I chuckle for weeks, I watch as entire IT departments and windows users scurry like rats on a sinking ship. 
Mac users relax, sip cocktails and enjoy the chaos from afar.

Have a nice day.


----------



## rworne

I wonder if Microsoft canning development of WMP for the Mac had anything to do with this.

They are using an MS DRM method aren't they?

Oh, and you all are misinformed, TiVo2Go does run on a Mac, and has since April 5, 2006. 
.
.
.
.
.
Provided you are running Bootcamp
(sorry)


----------



## gonzotek

rworne said:


> They are using an MS DRM method aren't they?


No, Microsoft offers a variety of drm solutions, but TiVo's encryption technology was developed in-house by Arthur Van Hoff, a former TiVo engineer. That the decryption currently only takes place in the Windows DirectShow system is incidental to the chosen encryption format.


----------



## Rosincrans

The Tivo Desktop Get Started Link is down. Is this Tivo 2 Go for Mac coming? Or just another Windows update? Or Website Error? Time will tell.


----------



## gonzotek

Rosincrans said:


> The Tivo Desktop Get Started Link is down. Is this Tivo 2 Go for Mac coming? Or just another Windows update? Or Website Error? Time will tell.


It's probably this...


TiVoPony said:


> Just a heads up for everyone, there is an updated version of Desktop coming that should take care of the crashes some of you have seen.
> 
> It'll be Version 2.3a, and it will be out very soon (days, not weeks...and maybe even hours, not days).
> 
> Thanks for the detailed reports here, this kind of information is useful.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4261297


----------



## cwoody222

FYI: still down

http://www.tivo.com/4.9.4.1-2.asp

Although I bet it's just a mistake.


----------



## TheSlyBear

Rosincrans said:


> The Tivo Desktop Get Started Link is down. Is this Tivo 2 Go for Mac coming? Or just another Windows update? Or Website Error? Time will tell.


LOL! You can definitely tell you're one of us Mac enthusiasts who, every time the Apple store goes down, speculates on what new and wonferful things will appear!


----------



## cwoody222

And it's back up. Nothing new yet. They're still "working hard". Wow, they must be ready to drop dead from exhaustion...

http://www.tivo.com/4.9.19.3.asp#4


----------



## rkester

A little FYI for yall relating to this thread...

If you havent already checked it out, VisualHub 1.1 was just released recently and has a new app included called TivoGoBack, which turns on a Movies tab in the TivoDesktop software. You can at least for now share video *back to the Tivo from your Mac* this way. And VH is rocking good video conversion utility with tons of formats. If you convert video at all, this is a great way to do it. BTW, TivoGoBack does support .Tivo files you've pulled off a unit via a PC as well. (It allows the Tivo unit to see the .tivo files, VisualHub does not convert these obviously.)

VisualHub at Techspansion:
http://www.techspansion.com/visualhub/

My thread on it here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=309877

TivoGoBack is not supported or endorsed by Tivo.


----------



## cwoody222

I currently use ffmpegX to convert files to .tivo format then use Galleon to transfer to TiVo for playback.

Transfer is easy. Galleon's always running on my Mac so I just dump the files to a folder and within a few seconds TiVo "sees" them and transfers them just about at real time.


There's a show coming up that I'm recording that I KNOW I'm going to want to take screenshots of. Since my .tivo files won't play on my Mac I was forced to use my ReplayTV to record this show. (sidenote: my ReplayTV will allow me to take a screenshot right from my couch OR play the file on my Mac and do a capture there)


----------



## rkester

I believe Tyler is using some of ffmpeg's stuff in the background to help with conversion. Then agian, who isnt? lol.

I used Galleon for a while but it kept crashing my Mac and my tivo so I stopped.

Honestly, VisualHub's util is so easy I wont go back to Galleon.
I burn dvds of my shows off th tivo itself and rip/convert them with VH and then I am good.

I am honestly suprized that VLC hasnt added .tivo file support. Wonder why not, seems like the perfect place to utilitize it.


----------



## tonyf3

Since TiVo Pony was kind enough to give us the bread crumb of a general time frame that's about to expire. I'm wondering if he'd care to give us a vague update on the generalized time frame.

Otherwise I'm thinking there will be new elected officials in goverment before we see this thing rolled out.


----------



## Puppy76

Elected officials?


----------



## bedelman

Puppy76 said:


> Elected officials?


As in November (at least)


----------



## cwoody222

I could care less about having TiVoPony grace us with a comment. Just give us the damn software already!


----------



## homertime

This is getting beyond ridiculous.

Anyone could argue that there are many things holding it up, like the fact that all of Apple has officially switched over to Intel.

Keeping that in mind, the new intels were out in January, giving more then adequate time to create something for mac.

I was also disappointed that we didn't find anything out from WWDC - I was hoping something would pop up there hinting to some support for us in the near future.



I'm going to assume until proven otherwise that this TTG for Mac idea is trashed, and I will do the same to Tivo come the end of my subscription.

They can't even give me a freeking "unused space" estimator, how can we expect TTG for mac?

They'll continue to give us stupid kid friendly features, and stupid games, and built in advertisements and continue to neglect such useful options.

I'm done with Tivo, I can't wait for my subscription to be over. This is just ridiculous, and too much neglect for too long for useful features.


----------



## rkester

Any chance the Windows version will work in Virtual PC?

or on the intel macs under parallels/vmware style environment at least?


----------



## derekcbart

rkester said:


> Any chance the Windows version will work in Virtual PC?
> 
> or on the intel macs under parallels/vmware style environment at least?


Yes, TiVo Desktop 2.2 works in Virtual PC. This is what I do. The file is not watchable in either Windows or Mac due to skipped frames and dropped audio, but there is a way to convert the file in a manner that will make it burnable to DVD using Toast 7.0.2 (Toast 7.1 does not work, btw). If you are interested in what you need to do to make this work just PM me.

I do not have an Intel Mac, but my understanding is that TiVo Desktop works the same using Boot Camp or Parallels as it does on any Windows XP only machine.


----------



## JetPilot

derekcbart said:


> there is a way to convert the file in a manner that will make it burnable to DVD using Toast 7.0.2


Is this something that can't be posted here? Is so, how about a link to somewhere that describes the process. I have saved many files to the mac to free up TiVo hard disk space and would love to burn a DVD that I can play.


----------



## errandwolfe

I have found a very interesting way to utilize TivoToGo....

Using Parallels I have a copy of Windows 2000 loaded and running full time. I loaded both the TivoToGo softwares on the Mac and Windows side. On the Mac side I use it for sharing my iTunes. On the Windows side I use the video transfer feature. If it is video I dont just want to archive but actually watch on my Mac then I just reencode it on the Windows side.

Believe or not it actually runs very quickly. I also have a 2.4 GHz P4 windows box, and to encode 30 min of video takes me about 10 min on the native Windows box. The same video only takes about 14 minutes on the copy of Windows I have running in Parallels.

One more tip, keep your Tivo video library in a shared folder on your mac, this prevents the VM file from getting huge.

It really stinks that we have to go through all this, and it is not even an option for those on PPC (less you have a super high end G5), but at least there is an option.


----------



## tonyf3

errandwolfe said:


> I have found a very interesting way to utilize TivoToGo....
> 
> Using Parallels I have a copy of Windows 2000 loaded and running full time. I loaded both the TivoToGo softwares on the Mac and Windows side. On the Mac side I use it for sharing my iTunes. On the Windows side I use the video transfer feature. If it is video I dont just want to archive but actually watch on my Mac then I just reencode it on the Windows side.
> 
> Believe or not it actually runs very quickly. I also have a 2.4 GHz P4 windows box, and to encode 30 min of video takes me about 10 min on the native Windows box. The same video only takes about 14 minutes on the copy of Windows I have running in Parallels.
> 
> One more tip, keep your Tivo video library in a shared folder on your mac, this prevents the VM file from getting huge.
> 
> It really stinks that we have to go through all this, and it is not even an option for those on PPC (less you have a super high end G5), but at least there is an option.


I've tried Parallells and it works great. However all my machines are PPC and half are relativley new. So, I won't be going Intel for a while. I'm waiting for Adobe to release their stuff in Universal Binary as well.

I think what the smart thing for TiVo to do is release TTG for Mac as a Universal Binary now that the entire line of Macs have been transitioned to Intel. At CES in January they showed working Alpha version that was probably for the Power PC using VLC for playback. It's been 8 months. So, I can only conclude that the Universal Binary version has backed up the release. Which is fine, they just need to communicate that to their users. Apple communicates well, but does comment on new software. TiVo does neither, and is not Apple.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

tonyf3 said:


> I've tried Parallells and it works great. However all my machines are PPC and half are relativley new. So, I won't be going Intel for a while. I'm waiting for Adobe to release their stuff in Universal Binary as well.


I've been seriously eyeing the Mac Pro, and was concerned about Adobe CS2 performance myself (most of what I do at home that isn't just "working from home" is web development, but I'm finding myself spending a lot more time in InDesign these days for some of the volunteer stuff I do.) Of course, I think running emulated for me might not make much difference, as I'm still using a G4 at home, and most of the early benchmarks that have tested the CS apps are showing performance that'll best my machine.

Unfortunately, the geek budget is a bit thin at the moment, so it's kind a a moot point. But they are nice looking boxes. We'll probably have a few come in to the office sometime soon, so at least I'll get to play there.


----------



## derekcbart

JetPilot said:


> Is this something that can't be posted here? Is so, how about a link to somewhere that describes the process. I have saved many files to the mac to free up TiVo hard disk space and would love to burn a DVD that I can play.


I don't know if it cannot be posted here or not. If not, I imagine that the moderators will delete this post and I'm sorry. I'm pretty sure that I read how to do this on another thread here.

In Virtual PC you need to download an application called "Direct Show Dump Utility". You can find it through Google pretty easily. This application converts the ".tivo" file to a ".mpg" and this ".mpg" file can be burned to DVD using Toast 7.0.2 (Toast 7.1 will NOT work).


----------



## cwoody222

Yea, I just need an app called TiVo F'in ToGo for F'in Mac... no other software needed.


Pony just needs to pony up...

or shut up...


----------



## DannyBoy25

> Pony just needs to pony up...
> 
> or shut up...


As much as I think TiVo's obvious disregard for their Mac users is awful, and as eagerly as I'm awaiting a feature that my other TiVo pals have had for what seems like forever now, TivoPony is just *one dude* who works for a *company*. I'm sure the guy is saying what he can say. Do you want him to tell us more, break a confidentiality agreement, and get fired? It is lame that we don't know more? Hell yeah! Are we all pissed off? Totally. TiVo's disgusting handling of us Mac users, plus various attacks on this board from people who feed us with such b.s. lines like, "Just get a PC" are so entirely frustrating. But come on, man. Pony's been helpful when he can. I'm sure he's not sitting in his office twirling his mustache over this.

All that said, it's still *lame as hell* that we've had to wait this long.


----------



## cwoody222

When I say "Pony" I mean "TiVo's public mouthpiece".

'Cause that's what he is... at least here.

Obviously I don't blame him personally. I blame TiVo. Always have. Always will. (that is, until hell freezes over and we actually get the software we deserve and have been paying for like PC users have)


----------



## juanian

cwoody222 said:


> When I say "Pony" I mean "TiVo's public mouthpiece".
> 
> 'Cause that's what he is... at least here.
> 
> Obviously I don't blame him personally. I blame TiVo. Always have. Always will. (that is, until hell freezes over and we actually get the software we deserve and have been paying for like PC users have)


Maybe you should blame the always-makes-it-EASY-for-developers-to-do-things company Apple?!?


----------



## cwoody222

Even if it IS hard, is it really "20 months (the amount of time PC users have had the functionality) hard"?


----------



## MacBrian

cwoody222 said:


> Even if it IS hard, is it really "20 months (the amount of time PC users have had the functionality) hard"?


TiVo Desktop 1.9.3 (008), the latest incarnation of the Mac TiVo software, is a problematic piece of programming at best. I have to STOP and then reSTART the TiVo server software at least every 3 days. After a couple of days it gradually bloats and starts hogging upwards of 25% of my CPU cycles. (I leave my Mac turned on all the time....usually only rebooting for System or other updates.) I use the TiVo Desktop to share my iTunes and iPhoto library with my home theatre via a wired network. The iTunes part works great for me. The iPhoto part is not so hot...during slide shows at least 30% of all the pictures display a broken icon. Going "back" to the broken picture displays the photo correctly (meaning there's nothing wrong with the photo), but then 6-7 pictures later the TiVo displays a broken picture icon again.

I've uninstalled and reinstalled and still notice my system responsiveness bogs down after a couple days of TiVo Desktop's server being activated. The Activity Monitor software utility shows me how much TiVo Desktop is taking from my CPU, and inevitably after a couple of days it's up past 25%. Stopping and restarting it takes it back down to 5-6%.

So in our zeal to see parity with the Windows TiVo Desktop, maybe we should just clamor for a bug-fix update to make this software behave the way it should.

I'd be interested to see what others notice on Macs that remain on 24/7. Do you also find that TiVo Desktop gradually becomes a resource hog??


----------



## jhwpbm

TivoBrian said:


> TiVo Desktop 1.9.3 (008), the latest incarnation of the Mac TiVo software, is a problematic piece of programming at best. I have to STOP and then reSTART the TiVo server software at least every 3 days. After a couple of days it gradually bloats and starts hogging upwards of 25% of my CPU cycles. (I leave my Mac turned on all the time....usually only rebooting for System or other updates.) I use the TiVo Desktop to share my iTunes and iPhoto library with my home theatre via a wired network. The iTunes part works great for me. The iPhoto part is not so hot...during slide shows at least 30% of all the pictures display a broken icon. Going "back" to the broken picture displays the photo correctly (meaning there's nothing wrong with the photo), but then 6-7 pictures later the TiVo displays a broken picture icon again.
> 
> I've uninstalled and reinstalled and still notice my system responsiveness bogs down after a couple days of TiVo Desktop's server being activated. The Activity Monitor software utility shows me how much TiVo Desktop is taking from my CPU, and inevitably after a couple of days it's up past 25%. Stopping and restarting it takes it back down to 5-6%.
> 
> So in our zeal to see parity with the Windows TiVo Desktop, maybe we should just clamor for a bug-fix update to make this software behave the way it should.
> 
> I'd be interested to see what others notice on Macs that remain on 24/7. Do you also find that TiVo Desktop gradually becomes a resource hog??


I don't see this problem. I run the TiVo server 24x7 and am seeing (right now) 0% CPU utilization on my MacPro 15" 2GHz, 2GB RAM.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

TivoBrian said:


> I'd be interested to see what others notice on Macs that remain on 24/7. Do you also find that TiVo Desktop gradually becomes a resource hog??


This has come up before. I don't usually see TiVo Desktop hog quite that much, although it does start to consume more resources as time goes by. For the few people who have tried it, simply accessing the server from a TiVo seems to 'reset' it back to whatever it was consuming at initial start.

I solved the problem on my machine by having the Mac itself query the server periodically (twice a day). I set up a cron job to run hourly that then used curl, a command-line executable, to request something from the server (TiVo Desktop, at least for Music & Photos, is nothing more than a specialized web server.)

I don't have time to write up instructions at the moment, but you might try seeing if connecting to TiVo Desktop from your TiVo and, say, browsing your music causes the resource usage to drop.


----------



## animalism2

I know most of the regular posters probably already know this. But for other newbie Tivo/Mac users who find this thread my searching for "Mac" and "Tivotogo" here are some tips. I posted the same thing on a different thread earlier:

Before they release the Mac version, there still are some useful related activities you can do that involve your Mac, short of watching the transferred video on your computer or an iPod etc. The following two functions are explained in other threads if you search the forum:

1) you can transfer shows to your Mac simply for archiving purposes, in case your Tivo box has a full drive. I do this all the time and then transfer them back when I want to watch them (see item 2 below for how to do this). To move them from your Tivo, you need to use the web interface for your Tivo. Find the IP address of your Tivo, which is listed in the settings area of your Tivo menu, and then point Safari to h-t-t-p-s://<IP address>/nowplaying". Use "tivo" as the username and your media access key as the password. (sorry... the forum is restricting adding URLs, so remove the hyphens in that address).

2) You can use the reverse function which people call "GoToTivo" with the latest TivoDesktop 1.9.3 for Mac release. This means you can keep MPEG-2 formatted files on your hard drive, for instance ripped from a DVD (if 4:3 aspect ratio) or transferred from your Tivo as above, and then move them to your Tivo to watch. The catch is that it's a hidden function in Tivo Desktop. In the System Prefs, hold down the Apple key while selecting Tivo desktop. A hidden tab will appear for "Movies". You may have to restart after selecting the folder which you want the Tivo to see. After that, your computer will appear in the "Now Playing" screen after the "deleted items" folder.


----------



## derekcbart

I recently noticed a folder created in my user directory called "TiVoShows". I think that the 1.9.3 release created this. I certainly didn't create it. Is this folder meant to be used for the process you describe in #2? If not, does anyone know what this folder is for since Mac currently does not have TiVo-To-Go capabilities (without going through all of the workarounds previously mentioned)?


----------



## derekcbart

I just answered my own question. I did the process for your step #2 and the videos tab came up and the default location was for the TiVoShows folder I mentioned.


----------



## rkester

The tab for Movies can also be enabled with VisualHub 1.1's TivoGoBack Enabler. Either way you slice it, its a good start towards the Windows equiv function.

And FYI, my Humax requires you to goto this address for the Now Playing list:
https://###.###.###.###/nowplaying/

Nice for backing files up off the tivo for sure from the Mac.

And not to sound like a broken record but for video conversion, please check out VisualHub! It does Tivo compatible mpg files and many other kinds.  (It also now includes an enabler for the Video menu mentioned above.)


----------



## animalism2

Thanks for the correction about the ##.##.##.##/nowplaying. You're right - I edited my post to reflect that correction. 

I don't actually need the conversion capabilities for most things. I just recently ripped a DVD to a VOB file then used MPEGStreamClip to convert it to "MPEG2 with MP2 audio" (no loss of quality or re-encoding involved) and it works straight away on the Tivo. That same conversion is necessary for Quicktime with the MPEG-2 decoder installed as well as Front Row to play a VOB file as well so it's part of my ripping routine.

My only problems occur when I try to watch 16:9 aspect ratio movies on the Tivo. Does VisualHub add the letterboxing to those files and make them 4:3?


----------



## Bob Williams

animalism2 said:


> My only problems occur when I try to watch 16:9 aspect ratio movies on the Tivo. Does VisualHub add the letterboxing to those files and make them 4:3?


I've only tried converting a single video as an experiment and it wasn't a widescreen one, so forgive me if this is a stupid question. But with the widescreen option added into the TiVo interface a while back, I assumed it was to enable it to handle widescreen video appropriately based on the aspect ratio of the connected TV. If not, then just what *is* it for?


----------



## rkester

The 16:9 preference on all tivos except the ones that have a dvd player/recorder in them does nothing. In the dvd units, it is for dvd playback.

animalism - let me try sending something widescreen to the unit now and i can tell you if it plays ok. im pretty sure it does. Yes. confirmed. im running the humax unit into a 4:3 tv and it appropriately letterboxed the content.


----------



## Rosincrans

animalism2 said:


> Thanks for the correction about the ##.##.##.##/nowplaying.
> My only problems occur when I try to watch 16:9 aspect ratio movies on the Tivo. Does VisualHub add the letterboxing to those files and make them 4:3?


I usually use Tivoizer, a cool little app that converts most files to Tivo format and will add black bars on the bottom and top so that a 16:9 will show up as a letterboxed 4:3. It was created by Half Italian who posted it on here under a different thread.


----------



## animalism2

I tried the VisualHub demo and loved it! I will likely buy the $23 license and be able to get rid of some of the other Video utilities that aren't nearly as comprehensive as VH. Tivoizer, on the other hand, wouldn't work. I hit "Tivoize" and nothing happened.


----------



## Rosincrans

animalism2 said:


> I tried the VisualHub demo and loved it! I will likely buy the $23 license and be able to get rid of some of the other Video utilities that aren't nearly as comprehensive as VH. Tivoizer, on the other hand, wouldn't work. I hit "Tivoize" and nothing happened.


I had that happen with a couple of files, but not often. Guess you get what you pay for.


----------



## tonyf3

June, July, August, September? 
I'm really fed up with these guys. 
No info, no updates, no discount for a lesser feature set than windows users, nothing. 
If it ever comes out it probably suck anyway. 
Keep your "Mid Whatever BS" If I really want a show on my Powerbook I'll go Elgato's Eye TV,or itunes!

1 Year 8 months and counting since the windows release. Pitiful.


----------



## Puppy76

8 more days. They have 8 more days.

Between no Macintosh support, and no dual tuner unit for over the air, I'm leaning heavily towards basically "switching" to a Netflix subscription. Probably cheaper actually.

Or...Tony, have you actually used an Eye TV? I had the crazy idea yesterday of buying a Mac Mini, two EyeTV Hybrids (their new HD product), and a giant external drive to store content on-instant HD recorder!

But...I wonder if EyeTV's software is remotely as good as Tivo's? 

Also wonder if their supposed "game mode" actually works-claims to have zero latency so you can hook a game console through it (which would be awesome on a laptop...) Don't know if it really works though-Windows products don't, they introduce latency. I thought it was just a USB issue, but maybe it's a Windows thing...


----------



## cwoody222

Puppy76 said:


> 8 more days. They have 8 more days.


How much does anyone wanna bet I'm gonna have to change my signature... again...


----------



## Puppy76

They don't get to claim something else now. :down:


----------



## donsullivan

Puppy76 said:


> ...
> 
> Or...Tony, have you actually used an Eye TV? I had the crazy idea yesterday of buying a Mac Mini, two EyeTV Hybrids (their new HD product), and a giant external drive to store content on-instant HD recorder!
> 
> But...I wonder if EyeTV's software is remotely as good as Tivo's?


I've got one of the Elgato EyeTV 500's (ATSC Tuner) that was connected to my G5 and is now on my MacBook Pro. The basic capabilities and recording quality are great. I've got it plugged into the same OTA antenna as my HDTiVo's and it picks up far more stations off the antenna than the HDTiVo does. When functioning on the computer the controls work well and the programming guide and scheduling have been pretty reliable. Unfortunately, that interface doesn't lend itself to a media PC perspective.

I have an Intel based Mini that I purchased to use as a media PC and a couple weeks ago connected the EyeTV up to it. The latest release of their software integrates with FrontRow so you can control it from across the room with the Apple Remote. It worked pretty well but I didn't spend a whole lot of time with it. The feature set is nothing like a Tivo but it does give you the ability to schedule a recording and play back recorded content as well as change channels with the Mac remote in a Front Row like interface. All-in-all not bad but a subset of TiVo functionality.

Using the normal UI (non Front Row) it does a really good job of exporting a recorded show into iPod format or prepping it for direct transfer to a DVD or other common export formats. It even has some limited editing functionality so you can remove commercials before you export for your iPod or other purposes. Bottom line if I have something available OTA that I want to keep for the future or dump to the iPod to watch later, I use this and have been very happy with it for the 1-1/2 years I've had it. I'm just limited to only having that functionality on the local stations I get OTA.


----------



## rkester

I've got a 1.42 1st gen mini here and have been looking at the new Eye TV unit (hybrid?). I was wondering if it would handle the HD video playback and recording but their specs say it requires a intel duo core to do HD.

:/

would love to cap HD locals to make DVDs from to watch (and watch in HD on the mac).

until I can get an HD Tivo.

just dont know if i wanna spend $500+ on a new mini just for that.


----------



## Puppy76

So it sounds like the EyeTV software DOSEN'T have "Season Pass" type functionality?

Well, thanks for the info!


----------



## donsullivan

Puppy76 said:


> So it sounds like the EyeTV software DOSEN'T have "Season Pass" type functionality?
> 
> Well, thanks for the info!


I have not seen anything like that in it's feature set.


----------



## cwoody222

Instead of putting resources to Mac customers, they're putting it towards this...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/ptech/08/25/tivo.religion.ap/


----------



## Puppy76

Six days left.

We've heard more rumblings about the S3 coming out. And yes, Duke Nukem Forever


----------



## megazone

cwoody222 said:


> Instead of putting resources to Mac customers, they're putting it towards this...
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/ptech/08/25/tivo.religion.ap/


Oh, c'mon, now you're just being silly. Yeah, I'm sure this really sucked a lot of resources away from working on a Mac desktop.


----------



## cwoody222

Well, no. Of course I know that _resources_ weren't taken away from the (possibly non-existent) Mac development for this.

But it does go to show you where their priorities and goals lie...

And it is certainly far, far from satisfying Mac customers.


----------



## Unix_Beard

98,377 views of this thread and sadly no TTG for Mac. Wasn't it around the time of the start of this thread when Apple announced the switch to Intel? I have a Macbook Pro in hand.


----------



## megazone

cwoody222 said:


> But it does go to show you where their priorities and goals lie...


You could say that about *anything* they do that isn't releasing the Mac Desktop. If they ship the S3 you can claim that their priorities and goals are on that and not the Mac Desktop. If they do another software update to 7.3.2 then you can claim that is the focus. It is a meaningless complaint, companies do more than one thing at a time and doing X doesn't necessarily imply anything about Y.

I really think TiVo should've announced they were dropping Mac support. Then there would've been an outcry, and it would've blown over. Then they could 'bring back' Mac support when 2.x was ready and people would be thankful and happy. ;-)


----------



## donsullivan

megazone said:


> You could say that about *anything* they do that isn't releasing the Mac Desktop. If they ship the S3 you can claim that their priorities and goals are on that and not the Mac Desktop. If they do another software update to 7.3.2 then you can claim that is the focus. It is a meaningless complaint, companies do more than one thing at a time and doing X doesn't necessarily imply anything about Y.
> 
> I really think TiVo should've announced they were dropping Mac support. Then there would've been an outcry, and it would've blown over. Then they could 'bring back' Mac support when 2.x was ready and people would be thankful and happy. ;-)


In my opinion, this long ago stopped being about anything more than how baldy TiVo as a company has handled all of this. This isn't about technology anymore, it's about a horribly botched customer relations issue that they just seem to be continuously making worse.

Whether consciously or otherwise, TiVo has decided that the impact to their business of not supporting this feature on the Mac is not significant enough to do anything about it. In 2 years (assuming the Windows version was in development well before it was released) they could have found a way to do it if they wanted to. If they believed it was hitting the bottom line we'd have seen the solution by now.

We are now 4 business days from their missing another vague suggestion that they might deliver. Once we hit September on Friday nobody can legitimately suggest that we are still in mid-2006 any longer. My fear is that we'll hear absolutely nothing because they don't have a delivery and won't ever commit anything every again so that they don't miss a date.

I too think it's time for them to just stand up and say "we're just not going to do this" and we can all move on looking for alternatives to achieve this objective for ourselves. Bottom line, get someone in the group who understands how to properly communicate with customers.


----------



## tonyf3

megazone said:


> You could say that about *anything* they do that isn't releasing the Mac Desktop. If they ship the S3 you can claim that their priorities and goals are on that and not the Mac Desktop. If they do another software update to 7.3.2 then you can claim that is the focus. It is a meaningless complaint, companies do more than one thing at a time and doing X doesn't necessarily imply anything about Y.
> 
> I really think TiVo should've announced they were dropping Mac support. Then there would've been an outcry, and it would've blown over. Then they could 'bring back' Mac support when 2.x was ready and people would be thankful and happy. ;-)


Megazone,
I believe you actually saw it in person and took pictures. Or did you just post them?

Anyway,
I think if they announced they were dropping Mac support there would be an outcry and it would NOT blow over. They would end up with a serious black eye. Why?..Market share of Mac is climbing quickly since the release of intel based Macs. The Laptop share alone has doubled in just 8 months. They just released the Intel Pro Tower. A screaming machine, runs Mac & Windows at the same time, $1,000 less than Dell. IT guys in my company are all of sudden walking around with brand new Mac Book Pro's. I thought I'd never see the day.

What all this amounts to is their communication skills are horrible and they don't think we matter. Guess what,.. they're only going to get away with this for so long until a Journalist or Tech website rips them a new one on this.

Are you listening? 
Ryan Block of Engadget,
http://features.engadget.com/2006/08/25/fairuse4wm-strips-windows-media-drm/

Stephen Wildstrom from Business Week,
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jun2006/tc20060614_650605.htm?sub=techmaven

David Pogue of the NY Times, 
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/

The gloves are off TiVo, the warm fuzzy feeling is long gone.
Step up, and make good on what you promised 2 years ago.
TiVo to Go for Mac.


----------



## megazone

tonyf3 said:


> Megazone,
> I believe you actually saw it in person and took pictures. Or did you just post them?


I saw it, poked around in it, and took those photos. I also talked to people from TiVo who told me they were using the alpha version themselves. So it exists, or existed.



> I think if they announced they were dropping Mac support there would be an outcry and it would NOT blow over. They would end up with a serious black eye.


Plenty of things don't support Mac. And, growing or not, Mac's market share is still small. If they just said "This won't come to Mac" 2 years ago it would've blown over by now. Then if 2.x came out later this year, even next year, it would be a 'relaunch' for Mac and people would be happy about it.

I do think the way this is right now is worse than if they had done that. It has been too long now, really, to be promising that it is coming. Some delay compared to Windows isn't unusual, but this is just crazy. If they really wanted too they could't hired someone to write a media player from scratch by now. There hasn't been any good explanation for the delay at this point.


----------



## tonyf3

megazone said:


> I saw it, poked around in it, and took those photos. I also talked to people from TiVo who told me they were using the alpha version themselves. So it exists, or existed.
> 
> It has been too long now, really, to be promising that it is coming. Some delay compared to Windows isn't unusual, but this is just crazy. If they really wanted too they could't hired someone to write a media player from scratch by now. There hasn't been any good explanation for the delay at this point.


True. 
A little honest communication would go a long way for pacifying the masses.
Answering the following would help.

Issues for the delay in development?
Technical challenges ?
Staffing?
Projected release date.


----------



## juanian

tonyf3 said:


> True.
> A little honest communication would go a long way for pacifying the masses.
> Answering the following would help.
> 
> Issues for the delay in development?
> Technical challenges ?
> Staffing?
> Projected release date.


What, *another* projected release date, so they can get more griping if it isn't met for some reason that might be outside of their control? Plus, airing their issues publicly might make things worse (if the issues are due to support from companies outside of their control). And would these things stop the griping? NO -- it would just give the gripers more ammo to bellyache more.

Yes, I too have been waiting for TivoToGo to finally come to the Mac. At least Mac users can now download and upload programs (I still use Galleon, and I haven't even bothered to install the more recent TiVo Desktop on my Mac yet). Yes, I would like to be able to view downloaded shows on my Mac through the 'standard' interface (like Quicktime Player instead of VLC), wouldn't you (not specifically you tonyf3, but the generic 'you')? And I'd like to be able to use 'standard' software like iDVD to handle the shows. But snapping your fingers doesn't just make this happen.

But maybe you haven't considered that there are things TiVo has no control over (am I getting repetitive?), and that they might not be *allowed* to discuss the subjects publicly. Maybe you need to redirect your anger to where it belongs. I just hope that the OS support won't require me to upgrade to OS X 10.5. (Oh, fun time is over -- now I have to go to work  .)


----------



## Puppy76

Four days.


----------



## chiefted

Puppy76 said:


> 8 more days. They have 8 more days.
> 
> Or...Tony, have you actually used an Eye TV? I had the crazy idea yesterday of buying a Mac Mini, two EyeTV Hybrids (their new HD product), and a giant external drive to store content on-instant HD recorder!


Don't have the EyeTV Hybrid, have the EyeTV EZ. Hook up was a snap with my DirecTV reciever. There were a couple of other pieces to this puzzle to get EyeTV to function much like my Tivo.

First piece was some software called iEye Captain. That does provide the "Season Pass" functionality that someone else mentioned. Even that was a snap to set up.

The second piece was a software hardware combo to switch the channels on my satellite box since the Mac doesn't have a plug in port for a IR Blaster. I got the iTrans/iRed combo. iRed is the software that will take what you have programed into iEye Captain converts it so it shows up in iCal (really nice feature that a Tivo won't do). The iTrans portion is the USB "IR Blaster". The iTrans set up was plug the thing into an empty USB port. The iRed software set up was easy, had to do a bit of tweaking to it to get the right timing down for the channel change.

All together the hardware and software probably cost me as much as buying a new Tivo box. I already had Toast IT for burning programs right to the DVD.

If you go the EyeTV route you get downloading for free from the TitanTV website. I just go to the website, pick the program I want to record. It downloads a small file (probably a couple kb in size), puts it in the EyeTV "to do" list and also puts a copy into iEye Captain. I have to make one change manually so that the iTrans will "fire" the IR signal properly.

It function just like my Tivo, cept I don't have a thumbs up/down function (why would I need one since I am setting recordings up myself) and well it won't record other things I might like.

I have been seriously toying with the idea of picking up a couple of Mac Minis and doing the same thing with the living room and bedroom TVs and dumping Tivo all together if they don't release TivoToGo in 4 days.

Then I can say I "Tivo'd them"


----------



## chessplayer

Don't worry, they are still "working hard" on Mac TiVoToGo! I know that hard work will pay off. Right, TiVo?

Meanwhile, the EyeTV hybrid looks great and is only $150; I only wish it had QAM support.


----------



## tonyf3

Thought this was interesting from another thread.



kido said:


> I attended the WWDC last week and got into a conversation with a guy from TiVo while waiting for a session on Quicktime. I asked him about playing protected AAC songs from iTunes and he smiled and said "Can you wait a few weeks?". Excited, I asked if they had licensed the codecs from Apple, and he said they had an agreement with them. Apparently, music is just scratching the surface. He said the HME team at TiVo had a late beta of an iTunes client, which allows for searching, browsing, downloading, and playback of music, videos, tv shows, and, get this, movies! Apparently, they are mostly waiting on Apple to finish the negotiations with the studios and they are going to announce the whole thing when that is done. TiVo gets lots of new downloadable content and Apple gets a few million new iTunes customers. A match made in heaven.


Original link.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4284749&&#post4284749

I'll keep my fingers crossed.


----------



## cwoody222

A guy with 2 posts writes about bumping into a TiVo employee who just happened to know all about a rather large Apple & TiVo deal?

Nah, I don't buy it. For a second.

The only word I believe is from TiVo itself. Last time we heard anything, Pony promised "mid-2006". That gives them, oh, about 14 more hours...


----------



## chiefted

> had a late beta of an iTunes client, which allows for searching, browsing, downloading, and playback of music, videos, tv shows, and, get this, movies! Apparently, they are mostly waiting on Apple to finish the negotiations with the studios and they are going to announce the whole thing when that is done.





cwoody222 said:


> A guy with 2 posts writes about bumping into a TiVo employee who just happened to know all about a rather large Apple & TiVo deal?
> 
> Nah, I don't buy it. For a second.
> 
> The only word I believe is from TiVo itself. Last time we heard anything, Pony promised "mid-2006". That gives them, oh, about 14 more hours...


Don't know about the Tivo & Apple deal. I can confirm that there will be a new version of iTunes coming out, they are or just got done with negotiations for movie stuff. There is a launch coming up mid Sept.

but ya only 15 hours (on the West Coast here up the highway from Tivo)


----------



## Puppy76

12 hours, 48 minutes (going by Pacific time) and counting.


----------



## Quevar

iTunes interaction would be awesome. Have TiVo show up as another shared video client on the network that can download and convert to iPod. Also allowing movies to be downloaded from Apple and uploaded to TiVo would be great. Playing encrypted aac files would be a nice added bonus.

If all this were available, presumably Quicktime would be the base player, so TiVo shows would be editable in iMovie and then burnable to iDVD.

Somehow, I think I am dreaming about all of this though and would be content with a way to play TiVo files on my Mac without the need of a Windows box or proof that it exists and is coming soon.


----------



## cwoody222

Apple has little incentive to enable / allow that to happen. They'd rather people hook up their Mac mini to their TV. That's why they have Front Row.


----------



## rkester

Wasnt there speculation at one point that the reason this has never been fullfilled is because Apple has their own tivo like device coming? I wonder if that is why, I dunno.


----------



## Puppy76

I've heard that, and years ago I thought Apple was perfectly positioned to do it...except now with all these cable boxes, I'm not sure it's a market they'd enter...but then there are still rumblings about an iPhone, so who knows. Actually there are tons of niche markets that are so poorly done someone like Apple could come in, take them over, and make them mainstream.

After all, I honestly thought the iPod was too little, too late. Thought they were entering the space YEARS too late.


----------



## rkester

The EyeTV Hybrid is a seperate product from the Miglia TVMini HD.

The Hybrid only does OTA HDTV and analog cable. No QAM that i can tell.


----------



## Thataboy

I was an early TiVo adopter many years ago, but abandoned it for cable-DVRs because of lack of landline phone. But now I am returning to the fold with the 180-hour 1-year prepay Wireless Dongle deal  Anyway, I get the unit next week, but in the meantime...

Has anyone tried using the brand spanking new Crossover Mac beta? I would love to know of the Tivo2Go Windows software will work with this program (I'd rather use Crossover than pay $300 bucks for Parallels/Windows).

I can't post the URL because I am too new, but it is at the Codeweavers webpage.

It is the first beta, and not many apps are officially supported -- I doubt Tivo2Go would work... but if anyone would like to give it a go, I'd be happy to know! Might be a good solution until Tivo releases Mac software in 2014.


----------



## rkester

Never heard of the Xover Mac product, interesting tho. I had discussed this kind of silent operation with friends before (simialr to how Classic worked) and had wondered why it wasnt in the OS in the first place.

http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/


----------



## jblake

It doesn't work out of the box with crossover, just tried it.. Maybe with some work. If I get it to work, I'll post back here.


----------



## Puppy76

ElGato has their own HD compatible part coming out.


----------



## Thataboy

jblake said:


> It doesn't work out of the box with crossover, just tried it.. Maybe with some work. If I get it to work, I'll post back here.


You da man! Or woman. Whatever the case may be 

I didn't expect Crossover to work with media/DRM type stuff, but if you can jiggle it, you will be a hero among men.


----------



## chessplayer

Congratulations on passing 100,000 views for this thread, tonyf3! Of course we would have all been happier if the thread had died years ago with TiVo delivering as promised.

Does anyone know how many months TiVo has been "working hard" on this? Let's hope that hard work pays off soon, and we get good news soon, rather than when this thread reaches 200,000 views.


----------



## tonyf3

chessplayer said:


> Congratulations on passing 100,000 views for this thread, tonyf3! Of course we would have all been happier if the thread had died years ago with TiVo delivering as promised.
> 
> Does anyone know how many months TiVo has been "working hard" on this? Let's hope that hard work pays off soon, and we get good news soon, rather than when this thread reaches 200,000 views.


Thanks Chessplayer!
Yeah, I'd have been much happier if the thread had died at 2 views with the subsequent release of TiVo ToGo for Mac. Not almost 2years and counting. 
It's a testament to the Mac community at large, and all programmers that have offered their time and expertise for work-arounds. We won't let this issue go.

I was just so incensed at the time that I had waited a year for the software, and TiVo decided to publicly ignore and dismiss the Mac Users and it's paying TiVo subscribers.

The Mac and TiVo are both great pieces of design and software. That they can't play well together and take advantge of all each platform has to offer frankly is a sin.

Hopefully well see something this month.


----------



## cwoody222

tonyf3 said:


> Hopefully well see something this month.


The eternal optimist, huh?

I have ZERO faith we'll EVER see TiVoToGo for Mac. Or even that they'll EVER officially confirm it isn't coming.

TiVo lies. TiVo has no communication skills whatsoever. Their PR and media relations has always been horrible. They have no desire to quiet Mac users. They don't care.

We won't see a product. Ever.

They've been working on it for over 600 days. They haven't said a word about it in 10 months. They're liars. It's not coming.

Signature updated, rant over.


----------



## Puppy76

Yep. Tivo lied. They've passed their own deadline without even acknowledgement or a hint as to if or when its coming. There's really no more point to this thread (aside from venting  ) as Tivo has made it clear they don't care about their Mac customers. (I do find it especially ironic they added that update to their Windows product that specifically works with iPods...)

We should have a sticky thread on the top of this and the main board that Tivo is NOT Macintosh compatible, and they have no intention of becoming so.

Since theyre not, Ive been leaning more and more heavily towards going with a Netflix subscription, and just using my current S2 until it breaks.


----------



## jpd

Here's the compatibility page for Crossover with Tivo Desktop - it's officially "untested".
http://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/browse/cat/?app_id=1707

Note that this means compatibility with Crossover in general, including the Linux version which has been around much longer. So this is a good indication that it's not going to work on the Mac. If you look at the video category in general, the only thing known to work is Quicktime (and quicktime-based tools). We don't need that, we've already got it.

This tie-in to the iTunes movie rumors sounds like a good sign of movement, but it doesn't necessarily mean TivoToGo - it could just mean sending movies and music from the iTunes Store to your TiVo. On the other hand it could explain the delay. If TivoDesktop will have both new features, and releasing it would have revealed Apple's plans to sell movies prematurely, it would make sense to delay it. And the Apple movie rumors were previously targeting a July/August announcement, which fits in with the TiVo timeline.


----------



## homertime

chiefted said:


> Don't know about the Tivo & Apple deal. I can confirm that there will be a new version of iTunes coming out, they are or just got done with negotiations for movie stuff. There is a launch coming up mid Sept.
> 
> but ya only 15 hours (on the West Coast here up the highway from Tivo)


The new itunes is probably due to new ipods coming out in mid to late september... the rumored touchscreen ipods


----------



## tonyf3

jpd said:


> This tie-in to the iTunes movie rumors sounds like a good sign of movement, but it doesn't necessarily mean TivoToGo - it could just mean sending movies and music from the iTunes Store to your TiVo. On the other hand it could explain the delay. If TivoDesktop will have both new features, and releasing it would have revealed Apple's plans to sell movies prematurely, it would make sense to delay it. And the Apple movie rumors were previously targeting a July/August announcement, which fits in with the TiVo timeline.


I'll buy that. 
I'm a, "the glass is half full" kinda guy.


----------



## backspaces

My wife just got a video iPod. We're a Mac family and have a Toshiba DVD TiVo system. We also run the TiVo on our house wireless network just fine, and using TiVo Desktop on my powerbook, export our Mac iTunes and iPhotos to the TiVo .. nice!

But from what I can tell, there is no easy way to convert TiVo shows to the iPod video. I think the best I can do is record the show to a re-writable DVD, and then use HandBreak or similar to create an iPod video.

What do Mac folks do to get TiVo shows onto their video iPods?

Thanks.

Owen http://backspaces.net/


----------



## rkester

backspaces... 2 words for you... handbrake to rip to full size... visualhub to convert to ipod (and other formats.

thats what I use/do.


----------



## backspaces

Thanks rkester .. and a result of a recent test: I used Instant HandBrake last evening to rip a 30 minute show from DVD. It worked fine. I'll do a couple of more tests over the next few days. 

But it looks like just burning a DVD on the Toshiba, generally of 4 half hour shows, then using Instant HB (which really is "instant": simply load the DVD then Click .. the result ends up in your Movies folder) works fine with minimal hassle.

Owen


----------



## donsullivan

Not sure how many of you may have seen this one. It was buried in a thread about iPod, PSP support.



TiVoPony said:


> We have commented on this more recently, I recall an interview with Jim Denney that circulated here not long ago. He said that we're continuing to work on it, and we are.
> 
> I don't have a revised date to give you. What I said last November was truthful, however supporting the Macintosh is significantly more difficult than it should be.
> 
> It is well understood within TiVo that we do not yet offer TTG support for Macintosh, it has not been set aside or forgotten. I do not though have a revised date to share. I'll pass along new information as soon as I am able to.
> 
> I understand if some folks continue to express skepticism. I'm sorry if you feel that way, but I don't believe anything that we tell you will change your views, short of putting the software in your hands. And that's what we're working towards.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4330573&&#post4330573

I suspect this will be the absolute last word we're going to hear from TiVo until (or if) TTG for Mac is ever released. They missed their published milestone and I anticipate at this point they'll just clam up, take the heat and say absolutely nothing from now forward. If we hear anything else from them it will be an announcement but I'm certainly not holding my breath.


----------



## sayonaraML

Thanks for posting that nugget from TivoPony and it certainly says it all...
My problem with Pony and with TivoBill before that was the semi-official quality of their posts. I mean where did that mid-2006 date come from? Why offer anthing at all if you aren't able to stand behind what you are putting up? Does putting up an artificial date make anyone happy?

I'm like you (donsullivan) at this point and am not holding my breath for anything from Tivo. Of course I do have a Macbook with XP installed on it and am able to get to TTG that way but would still preer that Mac route...


----------



## Puppy76

That's why a couple of us were doing the countdown. They missed it, though because of that and the expense of running a TV, I'm thinking more and more of just doing Netflix.


----------



## southerndoc

I still find it hard to believe that there has been no official announcement from TiVo as to why there is a delay in releasing TiVo-to-Go for Mac.

I am holding off buying a Series 3 unit until TTG is offered for Mac OS X.


----------



## macmonkey

I have wanted to buy a Tivo for awhile now, but being first an Apple fan, and now an Apple employee, I refuse to support a company that doesn't support mine. 

This talk of it being difficult to support the Mac is bologna. If Tivo can't get their unit talking to a Mac perfectly then it's because they're either incompetent or not making the attempt. 

So, Tivo, it's not just people that have already subscribed that you're angering with your terrible Mac support, it's dollars that you COULD have gotten but won't.


----------



## tonyf3

macmonkey said:


> I have wanted to buy a Tivo for awhile now, but being first an Apple fan, and now an Apple employee, I refuse to support a company that doesn't support mine.
> 
> This talk of it being difficult to support the Mac is bologna. If Tivo can't get their unit talking to a Mac perfectly then it's because they're either incompetent or not making the attempt.
> 
> So, Tivo, it's not just people that have already subscribed that you're angering with your terrible Mac support, it's dollars that you COULD have gotten but won't.


As an Apple employee I know that you couldn't talk about any of this even if you did have any info. However, You are correct on all points.


----------



## tonyf3

Special Apple Media Event Sept. 12th.
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/port...planned-for-september-12-new-ipods-198149.php


----------



## Bierboy

geekmedic said:


> I still find it hard to believe that there has been no official announcement from TiVo as to why there is a delay in releasing TiVo-to-Go for Mac.
> 
> I am holding off buying a Series 3 unit until TTG is offered for Mac OS X.


Maybe not "official", but darn close...here.


----------



## cwoody222

Hardly. If they were merely going to miss their self-imposed "deadline" by 12 days (depending on how you define "mid 2006") ... and only to wait for an Apple media show to announce the news at, do you really think Pony would have said:

"supporting the Macintosh is significantly more difficult than it should be"

I don't.

If they were just waiting until the 12th it would have been "hold on, almost there, just a few wrinkles".

His statements make me think "oh sh!t, we really have no hope of getting this done anytime soon, we really screwed up by saying mid-2006... just be vague, promise nothing, 'cause we're way off track".


----------



## cwoody222

And wait a minute... first time I've really looked at his comments so close. I never noticed he said "more difficult than it should be" and not "more difficult than we thought".

Is he actually blaming Apple?!

As I said before, they CAN support us (it can be done - easily - with hacked units)... just that they don't want to do it unless they can do it their DRM-ed way which is a corner they backed themselves into. I seriously doubt Apple is throwing any major suprises that affects playback of an MPEG.

That's just lame. Take your own responsibility, TiVo.


----------



## backspaces

cwoody222 said:


> Hardly. If they were merely going to miss their self-imposed "deadline" by 12 days (depending on how you define "mid 2006") ... and only to wait for an Apple media show to announce the news at, do you really think Pony would have said:
> 
> "supporting the Macintosh is significantly more difficult than it should be"
> 
> I don't.
> 
> If they were just waiting until the 12th it would have been "hold on, almost there, just a few wrinkles".
> 
> His statements make me think "oh sh!t, we really have no hope of getting this done anytime soon, we really screwed up by saying mid-2006... just be vague, promise nothing, 'cause we're way off track".


I probably should have posted this: 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4334867&highlight=backspaces#post4334867 
.. in this forum. Basically there's a near-trivial solution requiring the TiVo to support a simple HTTP server.

But this points out a wider issue than simply Mac vs Windows vs Linux vs Treo vs etc. TiVo and many other tech product folks are surprisingly ignorant of the computing field as a whole. They know their tiny niche. Much like a "power user" who really can crank Excel but doesn't know UDP from TCP.

So rather than assume TiVo is evil, I presume they are "civilians", ignorant of the potential of simple, elegant, platform independent solutions.

Owen http://backspaces.net/


----------



## megazone

backspaces said:


> I probably should have posted this:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4334867&highlight=backspaces#post4334867
> .. in this forum. Basically there's a near-trivial solution requiring the TiVo to support a simple HTTP server.


And this is why that will never happen: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4341216&&#post4341216



> But this points out a wider issue than simply Mac vs Windows vs Linux vs Treo vs etc. TiVo and many other tech product folks are surprisingly ignorant of the computing field as a whole. They know their tiny niche. Much like a "power user" who really can crank Excel but doesn't know UDP from TCP.


This is a mighty condescending viewpoint. I've talked to MANY people at TiVo, including developers, over the years. They are not ignorant of the other systems out there at all. They're simply operating under the current realities of the business and legal environment. An open solution is NOT viable, period. TiVo cannot withstand the lawsuits, which they'd almost certainly loose under the current laws. TiVo folks have, themselves, said they wish it were as simple as just making the files openly available from the TiVo. That's a lot less work than what they've had to do to make TTG work. If they didn't have to do any DRM, performance would be better. It'd work on any platform, etc. But they had to do DRM to get TTG approved in the first place. And they need to keep doing it to avoid lawsuits which would likely cripple them as it did ReplayTV.

They're neither evil nor ignorant. They're just operating within a system of constraints.


----------



## cwoody222

megazone said:


> They're neither evil nor ignorant. They're just operating within a system of constraints.


Who's constraining TiVo to not offer an official way to download .tivo files to Macs? (they could offer FAQs / instructions stating that a windows PC is required to view them or convert them to iPod formats)

Who's constraining them to offer an official way to utilize GoBack on Macs?

Who's constraining them to offering follow up details here except for when I ask Pony to follow up on comments he made months ago?

Who's constraining them to making official updates in their TiVo newsletter or in their FAQs online?

Who constrained them to take so long to fix issues with Tiger? Or at least to update their FAQ which incorrectly stated it wasn't incompatible when it was for months.

Who constrained them to take so long to come out with a Universal version of TiVo Desktop?

EDIT: Who also constrained TiVo to not utilize their hardware dongle solution that would have worked for all platforms and who constrained them to use a proprietary system that was only known to work on Windows platforms using WMP?

Yea, it's Apple that's so difficult to support...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

cwoody222 said:


> Who's constraining them to offering follow up details here except for when I ask Pony to follow up on comments he made months ago?
> 
> EDIT: Who also constrained TiVo to not utilize their hardware dongle solution that would have worked for all platforms and who constrained them to use a proprietary system that was only known to work on Windows platforms using WMP?
> 
> Yea, it's Apple that's so difficult to support...


Massive backlash in this forum and other places made them back off using the dongle. You know that as well as anyone.

TiVoPony said all he could publicly at your specific request yet you just keep dragging him down.

You refuse to accept or even acknowledge DRM restraints placed on TiVo by the legal/business environment they operate in.

You refuse to even discuss that Apple could possibly be operating in new territory here themselves and also may not have a quick solution to what TiVo would need. Apple may not be playing fair (their business right) or Apple may be in longer term talks with TiVo as Steve Jobs is pretty savvy about long term thinking.

so keep on refusing, it reflects a lot more poorly on those refusing to than does TiVo incs' inability to.


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## cwoody222

Sure there was backlash. But if they would have said "Hey guys, this is the only reasonable solution we have to be able to support everyone fairly" that may have changed things. They caved to PC users complaints about buying $25 hardware and Mac users suffer for 2 years + because of it. (and also TiVo suffers by all the spending they've done on Mac development and bad PR)

My point about them not commenting is to again reinforce this is not just about them not delivering software. It's about a continued and systematic lack of communication from TiVo. Would Pony (or anyone) given us an update if I hadn't asked or this thread didn't exist?

If they weren't going to meet a deadline by Sept 1st surely they knew in Aug... and probably July. And maybe even June. Unless they're *really close* which Pony's statements certainly don't seem to indicate. So why wait until the very last second... and wait until they're specifically asked... to give us details.

TiVo should have stepped up in mid-July and said "Look guys, we were wrong, sorry..."

I refuse to discuss anything about Apple purposely hindering TiVo's progress and/or, OTOH, Apple and TiVo working together because there's absolutely nothing to make us think that except as an easy "excuse" for TiVo (the former) or a fanboy dream (the latter).

EDIT: and if it is the former, that Apple is somehow hindering TiVo's progress than you'd think TiVo would want to say so. But they haven't.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

cwoody222 said:


> EDIT: Who also constrained TiVo to not utilize their hardware dongle solution that would have worked for all platforms and who constrained them to use a proprietary system that was only known to work on Windows platforms using WMP?


What the h&$l makes you think the dongle solution was workable? Technically, it has to solve every single issue that the system they shipped does, *and* it has to talk to a hardware device besides! Practically, it was just as "shipped" as the version of TTG for Mac that megazone reported on at CES: a trade show demo.

You've proposed a lot of solutions for TTG (DRM-free downloads, watermarking, etc), none of which are feasible for either technical or business reasons. It looks like TiVo was without a Mac person for a while, and they had to do some catching up.

The fact is, working with QuickTime, particularly the MPEG implementation, is hard. I can't say that I'm surprised they're finding it difficult. This doesn't mean that Apple is hindering TiVo, it just means that those particular APIs are tough to work with. There's an enormous difference.

Hiring qualified people isn't all that easy, either, even for Microsoft, even in the heart of Apple-land. Just look at this blog entry from someone in the Mac BU:



> Weve been working very hard to hire a bunch of developers, but it has turned out to be quite difficult to fill our existing open headcount positions. As an example, Ive had an open position on my own team for 9 of the last 12 months (it took 8 months to fill the slot when one developer moved from my team to another one in MacBU, and only last week did we hire someone to fill the slot vacated recently when another developer moved to a different team at Microsoft.)


Yes, TiVo's communication to its customers on the subject has been very poor, and you're right to complain about that. Yes, there are things that they could be "officially" supporting (like TivoToComeBack, or whatever we're supposed to call it) where only unofficial support exists. But to say they're just lying, in an attempt to avoid some imagined exodus of Mac users? I doubt it.


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## ZeoTiVo

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> The fact is, working with QuickTime, particularly the MPEG implementation, is hard. I can't say that I'm surprised they're finding it difficult. This doesn't mean that Apple is hindering TiVo, it just means that those particular APIs are tough to work with. There's an enormous difference.


yes, for the record I do not see some evil Apple plot to deliberately hinder, but I can also see TiVo trying to negotiate some way to get TTG on Mac done given the mepg situation and Apple not exactly leaping to help. If TiVo had found a way to do DRM on Apple then they would most likely be close enough to say something better then still backed up. So it would make sense they approached Apple about coming up with something. In both cases TiVo is still the one responsible for delivering TTG on the Mac but if they can not get around the DRM roadblock what can they do ?

also TiVoPony's post does not nake i t sound like there is some imminent TiVo/Apple alliance on anything unless he is playing very mum on the subject. I agree that does not bode well for an iTunes/TiVo setup but you live in your denial and I will live in mine


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## Rosincrans

Here's what I don't understand about the DRM situation: Isn't there already an easy solution for PCs to convert video to many unprotected formats? What exactly is the point? Don't they just need something that makes it appear that they are trying? Is the fear the possible sharing of files with a .tivo extension instead of an anonymous converted file?


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## jblake

Apple came up with a DRM solution that works on both Windows and Mac, why can't Tivo? There are several individuals that build very great elegant video software for the Mac (Handbrake, VisualHub), so it can't be so impossible for what is primarily a software company to hire a few Mac developers (even on a contract basis) and build a solution. I don't know the technical details behind .tivo file encryption, but is it not just the mpeg file wrapped in tivo's custom wrapper? Could they not just write a decryption module from scratch instead of trying to do some kind of plug-in like they did for WMV?

A more interesting question would be could Tivo re-write their DRM for BOTH windows and mac so that it's more cross-platform compatable? Or, possibly have a different version of the Tivo box's software that has a better wrapper for the file that is Mac compatable and allow customers to choose windows or mac support for their box (although that's a less than ideal solution)


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## cwoody222

Rosincrans said:


> Here's what I don't understand about the DRM situation: Isn't there already an easy solution for PCs to convert video to many unprotected formats?


Yea, and it's supplied BY TiVo... to convert to iPod and PSP formats.

Yup - TiVo's worried about Mac users having access to unencrypted files and yet they give PC users a way to remove the encryption.

Maddening, isn't it?


----------



## bedelman

cwoody222 said:


> Yup - TiVo's worried about Mac users having access to unencrypted files and yet they give PC users a way to remove the encryption.


It "watermarks" the video, so any converted file could potentially be traced back to the offender.

"Watermarking" is too processor intensive to do it on a processor constrained box like a TiVo -- which is why the conversion takes place on a computer.


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## megazone

bedelman said:


> It "watermarks" the video, so any converted file could potentially be traced back to the offender.


Note that their official solution also doesn't just strip DRM and leave the full resolution file. It only produces lower-resolution files, nothing better than 320x240 IIRC. (I'm not home right now to check.) So you can get lower resolution, watermarked files without DRM, basically in variations of MPEG-4. TiVo does not provide access to the full resolution MPEG-2 contents, with or without a watermark.


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## cwoody222

It's still better than nothing.


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## errandwolfe

jblake said:


> I don't know the technical details behind .tivo file encryption, but is it not just the mpeg file wrapped in tivo's custom wrapper?


Yes it is just an MPEG2 file in a custom wrapper which is VERY easily removed on a PC using a very common freeware program which I will not mention here. But the point is for 30 minutes of video downloaded from a tivo it takes under a minute to remove the wrapper.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

errandwolfe said:


> Yes it is just an MPEG2 file in a custom wrapper which is VERY easily removed on a PC using a very common freeware program which I will not mention here. But the point is for 30 minutes of video downloaded from a tivo it takes under a minute to remove the wrapper.


The process you refer to isn't just "removing a wrapper", it's decrypting encrypted portions of the MPEG2 file, and using TiVo-provided software to do it.

No TiVo software => no decryption. No decryption => no playback.


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## Puppy76

Which is why Tivo needs to hurry up and write a decryption program for the Mac...they're what, at least a year and a half late already?


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## cwoody222

Puppy76 said:


> Which is why Tivo needs to hurry up...


Don't hold your breath.


----------



## jblake

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> The process you refer to isn't just "removing a wrapper", it's decrypting encrypted portions of the MPEG2 file, and using TiVo-provided software to do it.
> 
> No TiVo software => no decryption. No decryption => no playback.


But if it's TiVo's encryption, then why is it so hard to write a decryption module for Mac OS? It's not like they contracted with Microsoft and wrapped everything in a WMV file that THEN would be very difficult to deal with on Mac OS. Another point is that they can encrypt it very easily in linux on a fairly slow platform, porting an decryption module over to OS X which is based on BSD and is very linux-like should be simple..heck, it should be just as easy or easier than writing a Windows decryption scheme. The whole problem seems to be that Tivo just doesn't care about their customers who also have a Mac, forcing them to use convoluted setups with a PC (or now, parallels) and unapproved software to strip the DRM out themselves and have a fully functional non DRMed full rez file.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

jblake said:


> But if it's TiVo's encryption, then why is it so hard to write a decryption module for Mac OS? It's not like they contracted with Microsoft and wrapped everything in a WMV file that THEN would be very difficult to deal with on Mac OS. Another point is that they can encrypt it very easily in linux on a fairly slow platform, porting an decryption module over to OS X which is based on BSD and is very linux-like should be simple..heck, it should be just as easy or easier than writing a Windows decryption scheme. The whole problem seems to be that Tivo just doesn't care about their customers who also have a Mac, forcing them to use convoluted setups with a PC (or now, parallels) and unapproved software to strip the DRM out themselves and have a fully functional non DRMed full rez file.


It's not writing a decryption "module" that's hard. In fact, writing a drag-and-drop "strip the encryption and spit out an MPEG2 file" application would be pretty simple -- but that has the potential to make the content providers and copyright holders very annoyed, and TiVo has shown repeatedly that they intend to keep the copyright holders reasonably happy. Note that this hypothetical drag-and-drop app _isn't_ a watermarking application, since that would require re-compression to integrate the watermark (not to mention compressor licensing fees.)

The hard part is writing something that is a good Mac "platform citizen" -- i.e. iDVD/DVD Studio Pro/Toast can burn the files to disc, any well-behaved QuickTime application can open them, iMovie could potentially edit them. This is where Apple's MPEG implementation gets in the way. The iApps simply don't do well with QuickTime's MPEG, since the way it represents "tracks" is unique (muxed MPEG appears as a single track with both audio and video characteristics, not as separate audio and video tracks like every other format does.) Add that to Apple's MPEG2 implementation for QuickTime being, frankly, not very good (several legitimate flavors handled poorly or not at all, generally buggy, etc.) and poorly documented, and it all translates into being something that would be very hard to just write a decrypting filter for (which is all they really do on the Windows side.) I know what I'm talking about here -- I've spent a lot of time writing QuickTime code, and a fair amount of time working with the MPEG 1 and 2 implementations (and pulling out hair over it.)

So, the "easy" road (the one most like the Windows implementation) is out. The next thing would be to build their own MPEG2 implemenation that plays well with QuickTime, and looks like other non-Apple-MPEG2 formats to the iApps. This is doable, but is a *lot* more work (Apple's MPEG2 implementation, poor as it is, took several years to deliver, although you could trim some time off of that by licensing some or all of the MPEG logic, which, IIRC, Apple didn't do, and wrapping that as QuickTime components.)

The last option would be to write a ground-up proprietary player for Mac OS, no QuickTime involved. Simpler than rolling their own QuickTime MPEG components, but doesn't get them access to the iApps, and gets you playback in that player only. It would mean writing their own DVD burning app (or working with a 3rd party to make that possible) if they wanted to support that, and probably wouldn't really sit all that well with Mac customers (who really want things that feel like a part of the platform.)

Delivering TTG on the Mac that is functionally identical to TTG on Windows _should_ require the same level and type of work, but because this is MPEG2, and Apple does poorly with MPEG2, it's more work on the Mac. As I said, I have experience with this, and have no problem buying TiVoPony's comment about it being harder than it should be.

Whether Apple as a company is helping, hurting, or otherwise I have no idea. I don't see a reason why Apple's developer technical support folks wouldn't help the TiVo developers out as much as any other developer, maybe even more, if it's something that requires Apple to make big changes to QuickTime or QuickTime's MPEG2 component they probably aren't bending over backwards, either.


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## tonyf3

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> It's not writing a decryption "module" that's hard. In fact, writing a drag-and-drop "strip the encryption and spit out an MPEG2 file" application would be pretty simple -- but that has the potential to make the content providers and copyright holders very annoyed, and TiVo has shown repeatedly that they intend to keep the copyright holders reasonably happy. Note that this hypothetical drag-and-drop app _isn't_ a watermarking application, since that would require re-compression to integrate the watermark (not to mention compressor licensing fees.)
> 
> The hard part is writing something that is a good Mac "platform citizen" -- i.e. iDVD/DVD Studio Pro/Toast can burn the files to disc, any well-behaved QuickTime application can open them, iMovie could potentially edit them. This is where Apple's MPEG implementation gets in the way. The iApps simply don't do well with QuickTime's MPEG, since the way it represents "tracks" is unique (muxed MPEG appears as a single track with both audio and video characteristics, not as separate audio and video tracks like every other format does.) Add that to Apple's MPEG2 implementation for QuickTime being, frankly, not very good (several legitimate flavors handled poorly or not at all, generally buggy, etc.) and poorly documented, and it all translates into being something that would be very hard to just write a decrypting filter for (which is all they really do on the Windows side.) I know what I'm talking about here -- I've spent a lot of time writing QuickTime code, and a fair amount of time working with the MPEG 1 and 2 implementations (and pulling out hair over it.)
> 
> So, the "easy" road (the one most like the Windows implementation) is out. The next thing would be to build their own MPEG2 implemenation that plays well with QuickTime, and looks like other non-Apple-MPEG2 formats to the iApps. This is doable, but is a *lot* more work (Apple's MPEG2 implementation, poor as it is, took several years to deliver, although you could trim some time off of that by licensing some or all of the MPEG logic, which, IIRC, Apple didn't do, and wrapping that as QuickTime components.)
> 
> The last option would be to write a ground-up proprietary player for Mac OS, no QuickTime involved. Simpler than rolling their own QuickTime MPEG components, but doesn't get them access to the iApps, and gets you playback in that player only. It would mean writing their own DVD burning app (or working with a 3rd party to make that possible) if they wanted to support that, and probably wouldn't really sit all that well with Mac customers (who really want things that feel like a part of the platform.)
> 
> Delivering TTG on the Mac that is functionally identical to TTG on Windows _should_ require the same level and type of work, but because this is MPEG2, and Apple does poorly with MPEG2, it's more work on the Mac. As I said, I have experience with this, and have no problem buying TiVoPony's comment about it being harder than it should be.
> 
> Whether Apple as a company is helping, hurting, or otherwise I have no idea. I don't see a reason why Apple's developer technical support folks wouldn't help the TiVo developers out as much as any other developer, maybe even more, if it's something that requires Apple to make big changes to QuickTime or QuickTime's MPEG2 component they probably aren't bending over backwards, either.


Wow, Thanks for explaining this Dennis.


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## cwoody222

So, whah whah, it's hard. They've had over a year! Going on two!

And - and I've said before - this is more than just them not delivering software and missing their own deadlines... it's about a history and continued poor communication (bordering on lying or lying by omission) and a general slap in the face to Mac users.

OK, I get it, it's hard. TELL US. ASK US! Maybe we'll "settle" for the solution that doesn't "play well" with iApps. Hell, I don't even have a DVD Burner in my mac so I could care less about iMovie and iDVD. Just let me watch the damn shows on my Mac just like Windows users do!!!


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## Puppy76

Yeah, seems like that's a good first step at least, and could be based on open source software probably (at least the player part of it).

But can't Quicktime play regular MPEG2 content? Dosen't Apple's DVD player use Quicktime? If so...what's the problem? Write some program that decodes the Tivo file and passes it to the DVD player, or Quicktime, or the iApps or whatever. If nothing else, obviously the DVD player uses MPEG2...but don't the rest of those apps too?

When all this started I was under the impression that Tivo used Microsoft encryption, and that was the holdup. Now that we know that's not true, this is ludicrous.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Puppy76 said:


> But can't Quicktime play regular MPEG2 content? Dosen't Apple's DVD player use Quicktime? If so...what's the problem? Write some program that decodes the Tivo file and passes it to the DVD player, or Quicktime, or the iApps or whatever. If nothing else, obviously the DVD player uses MPEG2...but don't the rest of those apps too?
> 
> When all this started I was under the impression that Tivo used Microsoft encryption, and that was the holdup. Now that we know that's not true, this is ludicrous.


Re-read my post. QuickTime supports MPEG2 (with an optional, for-pay, download), but does it poorly. The iApps _don't_ fully support MPEG2 (many flavors can't be edited in iMovie, can't be source footage in iDVD, etc.) mostly because MPEG2 looks different in QuickTime than, well, everything else does. Check the support docs for the iApps sometime (I know I've posted links in the past.)

DVD Player, interestingly, doesn't use QuickTime to handle MPEG2 -- remember that QuickTime MPEG2 is optional software, and DVD Player is part of the standard installation.


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## Puppy76

Okay, so just write an app that decodes for the DVD player. Worry about the rest later. Just being able to play your own shows will be enough for a lot of people. If the rest of the apps don't handle some MPEG2 streams, couldn't they write a converter that would put it in a format it DOES handle after being transfered from the Tivo, and then run THAT stream through the decoder before passing it to the iApps?


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## Dennis Wilkinson

Puppy76 said:


> Okay, so just write an app that decodes for the DVD player. Worry about the rest later. Just being able to play your own shows will be enough for a lot of people. If the rest of the apps don't handle some MPEG2 streams, couldn't they write a converter that would put it in a format it DOES handle after being transfered from the Tivo, and then run THAT stream through the decoder before passing it to the iApps?


That's not how it works. Any external app that generated something the DVD Player could play back would be generating an unprotected file, which isn't something their business rules allow. There's no documented way to "plug in" a module into the DVD Player, either. You could try to fake it out with virtual file systems and the like, but that's way outside the normal "way to do things" for this type of thing, and still results in easy-to-access un-DRMed media.

To decode for the iApps, you have to write QuickTime components. The QuickTime components they would have to write encompass all of what Apple's QuickTime components do, plus decryption, plus presenting the decompressed stuff to the iApps as regular audio and video tracks without losing playback sync ('lip-sync'). It took Apple well over a year to implement their MPEG2 solution for QuickTime. If TiVo is going that route, then I'm not at all surprised that it's taking them at least that long.

They _might_ be able to string things together such that they only have to take over _most_ of the processing from Apple's MPEG solution and only rely on Apple's actual decompressor components (there are dozens of component types involved in QuickTime playback), but that would be pretty tricky, and sync would remain a hard problem for long shows (although new APIs in QuickTime 7 might help there.)

They could deliver a stand-alone player with a lot less effort (and some licensing of decompressors from any number of companies), but that's all they'd get, a player. That's still not feature parity with Windows, and while it might make some Mac users happy, I suspect that'd be a minority.


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## Fofer

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Re-read my post. QuickTime supports MPEG2 (with an optional, for-pay, download), but does it poorly.


The fact is, I'm able to extract video files off my (hacked) TiVo's, and play those files perfectly on my Mac with QuickTime Player (and the MPEG-2 plugin.) That's all many Mac customers want to do anyway. At least, they'd rather be able to do that (and not edit/burn) ... than be unable to do anything at all!


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## Dennis Wilkinson

Fofer said:


> The fact is, I'm able to extract video files off my (hacked) TiVo's, and play those files perfectly on my Mac with QuickTime Player (and the MPEG-2 plugin.)


Good for you, but that's not the technical problem TiVo is trying to solve. If all they moved around was, effectively, unencrypted MPEG2, there'd be nothing for them to solve but network transport, and they'd have been done a long time ago. They have business rules that say "no moving the raw file off the TiVo unencrypted directly to a computer", which means they have to either write something that lives under QuickTime MPEG or replaces it, to play in the QuickTime/iApps space.


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## Fofer

Understood.

Well, the best advice I can give to interested Mac users at this point, is to quit waiting and whining, and hack their TiVo's to get the results they're looking for. 

After 2 years of this nonsense I don't have much faith that TiVo's actually going to deliver something better.


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## Puppy76

I probably just don't understand this, but can't they just decrypt and pass a stream to the DVD or Quicktime player? I mean can't one or the other accept inputs of some sort?

And even if not, they could have built a player around an open source player by now.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

Puppy76 said:


> I probably just don't understand this, but can't they just decrypt and pass a stream to the DVD or Quicktime player? I mean can't one or the other accept inputs of some sort?


To the DVD Player, not easily, since it doesn't support plug-ins (or, if it does, no one has discovered the private API nor is it a published API.) You could potentially do something tricky (and when I say tricky, I mean both "very difficult to do" and "inadvisable") like writing a virtual file system that treats the .tivo file so that it looks like a mounted DVD. Then you're back to a DRM-less file again (unless you can somehow make it appear to be CSS-encrypted.

QuickTime Player uses, well, QuickTime. You plug new things into it by writing new QuickTime components, which gets us back into the ugliness previously described.

A standalone player, based on open-source or not, would be the simplest thing to code, but then you have the whole feature parity thing to deal with. But because it's not the "right" way to do this on a Mac, it probably wouldn't have been the first path followed. If they end up going down that road, it may be because they spent a lot of time on the "right" way, found it impossible, and were forced to discard their previous work and start over.

FWIW, I don't claim that doing it (what I think is) the "right" way, using QuickTime and supporting the iApps, is impossible -- it's just a tough nut to crack. For something as old as it is (I remember using betas back in 1990, watching postage-stamp sized videos by The Residents on a 68K machine) QuickTime is a pretty robust architecture, and lots of things have been adapted into it.


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## gonzotek

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> FWIW, I don't claim that doing it (what I think is) the "right" way, using QuickTime and supporting the iApps, is impossible -- it's just a tough nut to crack. For something as old as it is (I remember using betas back in 1990, watching postage-stamp sized videos by The Residents on a 68K machine) QuickTime is a pretty robust architecture, and lots of things have been adapted into it.


I remember The Residents multimedia disc. I had a similar disc called "Isaac Asimov's The Ultimate Robot" that had all of his robot stories, as well as factual material about robots in the movies and real life, with lots of quicktime clips of the movie bots and whatnot. I used to 'borrow' the clips for my hypercard stacks. I remember being amazed at the sheer amount of content you could fit on a cd(I think I had a whopping 100MB hd at the time).

Sorry for the off-topic-ness, but by mentioning the residents, you just took me back almost 15 years!


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## Puppy76

Hey, cool! Nothing to add, but I love Issac Asimov. I'm reading Inferno right now that's sort of a "licensed" Robot book by a different author.


----------



## macrob

I just got my MacWorld (Oct 2006) and was browsing through it when I came across something that suprised me !

On page 93-94 in the Help Desk section a user was asking about getting his TV shows to his iPod. The author, Christopher Breen immediately suggests Tivo, and waiting for TiVo to Go for mac.

The suprising part was this one line:
"_While TiVoToGo implementation on a Windows PC was underwhelming, taking way too long to transfer and burn programs with poor results, the Mac implementation *I've seen* looks far more promising._"

He then goes on to talk about Dish TV DVR. But the fact that he's *seen* something, means TiVo *has* something, and I think that is pretty good news. Hopefully we"ll be the ones to* see* something soon!


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## cwoody222

yea f'in right

this time.. next year.. we'll still be hopin'.. and wishin'.. TiVo has abandoned us, they don't care, they're not trying. it's done. over. there will be no support for Mac for TiVo ToGo on Mac. ever.


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## 2farrell

I was wondering if TiVo might announce something on Sept. 12th around the same time Apple is "supposed" to announce the Movie deals.
Then I wonder if there is life out there? Pigs can fly? I've ever seen the Dark Side of the Moon?


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## Fofer

macrob said:


> But the fact that he's *seen* something, means TiVo *has* something, and I think that is pretty good news. Hopefully we"ll be the ones to* see* something soon!


He's probably talking about what was shown at this year's CES. TiVoToGo for Mac, in working pre-release form:

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-01/tivotogo-for-mac-lives/


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## Lon

MacWorld article mentioned is also available online:

http://www.macworld.com/2006/09/secrets/octobermac911/index.php

really doesn't say much applicable to this thread


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## Puppy76

There should be a sticky on these forums, and Tivo should admit on their site too that they don't support Mac OS.

I think it's hilarous these people waiting for some connection between Apple's thing on the 12th and Tivo! Geez.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

Puppy76 said:


> ... and Tivo should admit on their site too that they don't support Mac OS.


You mean like this?



> TiVo Desktop is available for the Macintosh OS X, v10.3 and later. This includes Digital Music & Photos only - *not TiVoToGo*


(http://www.tivo.com/desktop)

Emphasis is TiVo's.


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## Puppy76

Yeah, that's actually better than I'd have expected.


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## streborekim

tivo better get their act together for mac users... from today's press conference:

"Apple is releasing its long-rumored set-top box in Q1 2007. It will be Wireless... 1/2 size of Mac Mini, built-in power supply, USB, Ethernet, 802.11 "wireless component video", optical audio and HDMI ports, plus old RCA stereo audio ports. Works with Apple Remote"


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## chiefted

streborekim said:


> tivo better get their act together for mac users... from today's press conference:
> 
> "Apple is releasing its long-rumored set-top box in Q1 2007. It will be Wireless... 1/2 size of Mac Mini, built-in power supply, USB, Ethernet, 802.11 "wireless component video", optical audio and HDMI ports, plus old RCA stereo audio ports. Works with Apple Remote"


Hmmmmm unless Tivo pushes TTG for Mac out soon (like in a few days) and actually delivers on their promise for Tivo To Go for Mac. I think I will be a "switcher" on this front too.

"Hello I am a Mac....and I am a Tivo"


----------



## Puppy76

I am so excited about those new iPods. I mean I was still pretty happy with the ones we've had for the past year (still market leading!) The Zune really didn't compete well with LAST years iPods 

That 'iTV' (not it's final name) looks interesting, though my understanding is it only works with content in iTunes, so unless you're rich enough to buy all your shows through the iTunes store instead of recording them, it's not a direct competitor to Tivo.


----------



## Lon

"works with iTunes on PC or Mac" -- seems to me it will allow streaming from the computer to the TV at HDTV quality (based on commentators at the Showtime event)


----------



## chiefted

Lon said:


> "works with iTunes on PC or Mac" -- seems to me it will allow streaming from the computer to the TV at HDTV quality (based on commentators at the Showtime event)


Even if they don't pull of the DVR section of this (and they are trying to do that), with a Mac Mini and EyeTV I could dump my Tivo come January.

Figuring that Q1 2007 is around the time of Macworld and this is where lots of the HUGE announcements are made (Last years it was the Intel iMac and MacBook Pro).


----------



## errandwolfe

Just three words...

GOOD BYE TIVO

Time to get something that actually is NOT vaporware.


----------



## blips

Tivo must not be worried that Apple will cut into their sales. There probably are not enough "Mac" people here for them to care, otherwise they would have TivoToGo for the Mac out already.


----------



## blips

errandwolfe said:


> Just three words...
> 
> GOOD BYE TIVO
> 
> Time to get something that actually is NOT vaporware.


But isn't iTV vaporware at this point? I don't think anyone can buy it right now.


----------



## Puppy76

Well, it may not be out yet, but it's about as sure of a thing as you can get. It's not like Tivo's Mac OS support.


----------



## megazone

iTV is just Apple Media Center Extender.


----------



## TydalForce

Its basically a video version of the Airport Express - take content you have in iTunes and stream it across your network to your TV

Its pretty cool, but the big question will be what formats does it support. It looks like the video will have to be in iTunes - no big deal, you can put all kinds of video into your iTunes library

It does not have to be purchased

But then, what codecs does it support? I think it'll be H.264 (is that what its called? I'm too lazy to verify), but will it work with "anything QuickTime can play"? Like, DivX, or MPEG4 etc?

If not, I suspect there will be an easy way to convert video... and if Apple doesn't do that, there *will* be 3rd party utilities to do so (there already are for converting video to the iPod). 

Combined with some good video recording software on your computer, you could cobble yourself together TiVo functionality... interesting, but until Apple makes "The whole widget", TiVo will have the DVR edge I think.


----------



## homertime

chiefted said:


> Even if they don't pull of the DVR section of this (and they are trying to do that), with a Mac Mini and EyeTV I could dump my Tivo come January.
> 
> Figuring that Q1 2007 is around the time of Macworld and this is where lots of the HUGE announcements are made (Last years it was the Intel iMac and MacBook Pro).


I think this is the most important statement so far.

The fact that the HD series 3 is $800, and there won't be Tivo To Go Support before 2007 (I think it's safer to assume that then assume it's near complete), it actually makes it more affordable to purchase:
1. A mac Mini
2. Eye TV
3. An External HD

Tivo just made it unpleasant to make recordable HDTV. I guess they didn't get the newsflash how companies like DishNetwork offer their DVR in HD for only $299 with a $6 per month service fee.

Tivo has now proven to be a waste of time. You can easily outperform Tivo with the above configuration, and for less money especially if it's going to be in HD. I'll gladly hook up that configuration to my 40"LCD, and it will double as a computer.

I'll be a proudly canceling service at the end of my gift membership. I'm sick of the lack of support, the stupid useless features they add (how about a freeking free space meter already!), their advertisements within the Tivo box, slow menus, amongst all of its problems.

It's a damn shame that this has over 1,000 posts, 100,000 views, and we're still neglected.


----------



## donsullivan

My 12 month committment was scheduled to wrap up at the end of this month. Based on the lack of TTG for Mac, and the success I've had with a combination of the EyeTV500, a Mac Mini and a new media interface software I've found for the mac (http://www.equinux.com/us/products/mediacentral/index.html) I just got off the phone from cancelling the service subscription on my Series 2.

It just didn't make any sense to keep the subscription active on a box that offered me no more value than I can get with the D* TiVo boxes. I can record anything I want OTA with the EyeTV and easily convert it to dump on the MacBook, the iPod or burn it to DVD with a single click. If I want to pull the commercials out I can, but that's not really that big an issue for me. I just want to be able to easily move shows to the mobile devices I have available to me so I can watch them on the road.

Their reaction was to tell me how I could buy a Series 3 and when pressed on the TTG for Mac support, the agent went away and came back with the scripted response that they had never committed to making this functionality available. Besides, TTG is not available on the S3 for any plaftorm. Time to just accept it for what it is and move on.

I guess I'll now wait for D* to start preparing me to swap out my D* TiVo hardware for their new DVR over the next year and end up abandoning TiVo totally. It's really sad to me since I was one of the very earliest adopters with my first SA box purchased in 1999 and have been an avid promoter recommending and purchasing countless other TiVo boxes over the years for others.


----------



## Puppy76

My understanding is the EyeTV software dosen't handle scheduling/season passes very well? You have to just manually schedule stuff?

And does it allow you to use TWO tuners at once, and is it smart enough to handle that with scheduling?

*IF* it has the equivalent of season passes and dual tuners, then yeah, a Mac Mini would be all around better (and no monthly charges). Plus that iTV product coming next year opens up even more possibilities (plus it's close tie to the iPod is fantastic, etc.)


----------



## tackaberry

I will buy the iTv, or whatever it is called the day it comes out....by comparison, I don't plan on buying a Series3 until the price comes down significantly (even though I would love to lose my cablebox). The $199 lifetime transfer is sure tempting, but $800 isn't.

Ideally, I am still hopeful that TiVo will (some year) support TiVoToGo for Mac and will allow me to move shows recorded on my TiVo to my Mac, which can then be used as my digital library/storage, which can then be played on the iTv via its Front Row interface.

I'm really not into the idea of buying videos from the iTunes store - I much rather would prefer to have the option to rent movies either ala carte or via subscription (like netflix), and the option to purchase movies I wish to watch over and over again.

I'm glad to see that iTv supports both wired ethernet as well, as I already have a hub in my av cabinet for my TiVo & XBox


----------



## Dr_Zoidberg

tackaberry said:


> I will buy the iTv, or whatever it is called the day it comes out....by comparison, I don't plan on buying a Series3 until the price comes down significantly (even though I would love to lose my cablebox). The $199 lifetime transfer is sure tempting, but $800 isn't.
> 
> Ideally, I am still hopeful that TiVo will (some year) support TiVoToGo for Mac and will allow me to move shows recorded on my TiVo to my Mac, which can then be used as my digital library/storage, which can then be played on the iTv via its Front Row interface.


Lifetime transfer? I don't see that on TiVo's site. Do you have a link?

I bought lifetime service for my series 2, so I'm "stuck" with transferring to a PC (or PC in a window). I also paid for the TTG+, so I will stay with TiVo until it breaks or is supplanted by something a lot better. Maybe that's iTV, maybe not.


----------



## cwoody222

Dr_Zoidberg said:


> Lifetime transfer? I don't see that on TiVo's site. Do you have a link?


Where have you been? 

www.tivo.com/vip


----------



## chiefted

Puppy76 said:


> My understanding is the EyeTV software dosen't handle scheduling/season passes very well? You have to just manually schedule stuff?
> 
> And does it allow you to use TWO tuners at once, and is it smart enough to handle that with scheduling?
> 
> *IF* it has the equivalent of season passes and dual tuners, then yeah, a Mac Mini would be all around better (and no monthly charges). Plus that iTV product coming next year opens up even more possibilities (plus it's close tie to the iPod is fantastic, etc.)


EyeTV doesn't handle this stuff however there is iEye Captain.

iEye Captain allows:

TWO EyeTV receivers to be hooked up at once
Will do "Season Pass". Though in iEyeCaptain its called just called Repeat.

With iEye Captain I can click on a program in the EPG, it downloads a small file, iEye Captain grabs it and puts in the queue for recording.

Since I am using directv I have to do one small edit but its not a big deal overall.

The program (iEye Captain) is inexpensive and the customer support has been great. They even have a deal worked out with a couple of IR blaster folks.


----------



## Dr_Zoidberg

cwoody222 said:


> Where have you been?
> 
> www.tivo.com/vip


Thanks, I've only been following this thread here, not paying attention to every new thing TiVo does 

so, I drop $1000 and get lifetime on a Series 3....knothksbye


----------



## TydalForce

I too am tempted by the Series 3 - I've got a nice digital LCD TV that could use some higher-definition input. But, my Humax is doing fine... I'm nearsighted, so from where I sit I can't really tell the difference in quality much anyway

So, I'll likely stick with my Humax and not replace it unless
- It explodes
or
- TiVo gets up to speed with Mac support. 

Remember, we're not looking for anything special, or anything extra - just to be treated equally and fairly.

Here's hoping my surge protector does its job!


----------



## scheckeNYK

what's anyone think of the iTV gadget that was announced yesterday? Seems like they should have made the full leap and crammed that thing inside the MacMini.


----------



## derekcbart

Basically it is going to be the Airport Video Express.

Here is an article that does a nice examination of the product:
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Home/21133BEF-61B4-40C1-A976-5C1360E60694.html


----------



## TydalForce

I rather like it, and might get it if my other plans on computer-to-TV don't work out as I hope

I don't think it'll replace my TiVo though (yet) but it *is* the first thing I've seen that has a worthy UI


----------



## Quevar

> Puppy76 wrote: "...so unless you're rich enough to buy all your shows through the iTunes store instead of recording them, it's not a direct competitor to Tivo."


Oddly enough, in many cases, it is cheaper to buy all of your shows from iTunes than to buy cable and and pay for the TiVo monthly fee*. Over the course of a year, TiVo will cost $224 (for one year prepaid). Cable is going to cost roughly $40 a month, so about $480 per year, depending on what channels you actually want. So, that is $700 a year for the TiVo solution. For $700, you can buy 351 TV shows. Most TV shows have somewhere between 15 and 24 episodes per year, so let's say an average of 20.
*- You can watch 17.5 entire seasons of television for the same price as paying for cable and a TiVo for one year.* How many do you watch?
- And, when you buy them from iTunes, there are no ads, so it takes even less time than it does to watch than watching on TiVo.
- And, it works on the Mac.
- And, you get DVD quality (or very close) as opposed to cable quality.

Once large numbers of people start to figure this out, TiVo and the cable companies are going to notice the impact of this. I think this is great competition to both and I'm glad to see it.

* If you have the lifetime membership, it isn't as worthwhile, but they don't sell that anymore, so I won't consider that an option.


----------



## Fofer

Quevar said:


> Oddly enough, in many cases, it is cheaper to buy all of your shows from iTunes than to buy cable and and pay for the TiVo monthly fee*.


+1 Insightful

Great post, Quevar.


----------



## megazone

Quevar said:


> Oddly enough, in many cases, it is cheaper to buy all of your shows from iTunes than to buy cable and and pay for the TiVo monthly fee*.


Of course, this only works if the shows are on iTunes in the first place. MOST of what I watch are NOT available on iTunes.

On top of that, they don't offer HD content (yet, I'm sure).

And many times a year I hear about some program I would normally not watch and record it, so I'd basically need a service that offers me all the content of cable, just in case.

It just doesn't come close for me.


----------



## Puppy76

For me the pricing would be different, as even if I got cable it would be $30 a month (and I'd never pay that). Interesting post though.

I'd love if Apple had a subscription service. I'd go for it if it were cheap enough/month (or per show, or whatever).


----------



## tonyf3

iTV is just the code name, the real name should be TiVo Killer. It's just a matter of time. They should have taken all the ranting seriously.


----------



## derekcbart

tonyf3 said:


> iTV is just the code name, the real name should be TiVo Killer. It's just a matter of time. They should have taken all the ranting seriously.


Umm...

Why are you calling the iTV a "TiVo Killer"? It doesn't have any tuner capabilities. It doesn't have any television control capabilities. It doesn't allow you to record cable, satellite, or OTA programming.

What it really should be called is the "Airport Video Express". It's primary function is to be a way to view downloaded video files from your computer onto your TV. It doesn't have any of the functions we have come to expect from TiVo or any generic DVR. It is not going to be something to replace the DVR by any stretch of the imagination.

Here is a really good article that breaks down the function and future of the iTV:
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Home/21133BEF-61B4-40C1-A976-5C1360E60694.html

Now, don't get me wrong. I think it is going to be a very cool device and I will probably be one of the first ones to buy it, but it is not going to be a "TiVo Killer". It just isn't going to be designed to do any of the things that the TiVo does.


----------



## cwoody222

I think "broadcast TV killer" is a better name.

Although I still think we're a long way from that.


----------



## tonyf3

derekcbart said:


> Umm...
> 
> Why are you calling the iTV a "TiVo Killer"? It doesn't have any tuner capabilities. It doesn't have any television control capabilities. It doesn't allow you to record cable, satellite, or OTA programming.
> 
> What it really should be called is the "Airport Video Express". It's primary function is to be a way to view downloaded video files from your computer onto your TV. It doesn't have any of the functions we have come to expect from TiVo or any generic DVR. It is not going to be something to replace the DVR by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> Here is a really good article that breaks down the function and future of the iTV:
> http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Home/21133BEF-61B4-40C1-A976-5C1360E60694.html
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong. I think it is going to be a very cool device and I will probably be one of the first ones to buy it, but it is not going to be a "TiVo Killer". It just isn't going to be designed to do any of the things that the TiVo does.


Ok,
But if it's hit , how long do you think it'll be before it does do TiVo type stuff and do it the Apple way.


----------



## tonyf3

cwoody222 said:


> I think "broadcast TV killer" is a better name.
> 
> Although I still think we're a long way from that.


Careful buddy, some of us actually work in Broadcast TV.

...and yes we're a ways from that, but when iTV launches in Q1'07.
Flash forward the 2 years that TiVo has wasted screwing around, and tell me
where you think the functions of this box will be at by Jan. '09.

oh..and we'll probably still be waiting for TTG for Mac. So,.. Go iTV or whatever.


----------



## derekcbart

tonyf3 said:


> Ok,
> But if it's hit , how long do you think it'll be before it does do TiVo type stuff and do it the Apple way.


Here's another great article. This one is by Robert Cringely.
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20060914.html

This is a follow-up to his prediction of the iTV from a year ago. It also addresses why it isn't going to be a DVR to begin with and how it will become one over time.


----------



## chiefted

derekcbart said:


> Umm...
> 
> Why are you calling the iTV a "TiVo Killer"? It doesn't have any tuner capabilities. It doesn't have any television control capabilities. It doesn't allow you to record cable, satellite, or OTA programming.
> 
> What it really should be called is the "Airport Video Express". It's primary function is to be a way to view downloaded video files from your computer onto your TV. It doesn't have any of the functions we have come to expect from TiVo or any generic DVR. It is not going to be something to replace the DVR by any stretch of the imagination.


How about calling it "Tivo Killer accomplice"? Again with what you are saying is that it is away to get content from your computer to your TV.

If you throw in EyeTV (and one extra program for using a set top cable/satellite box) you have what is basically an Apple Tivo. I know everyone wants to call this Apple Video Express or Apple Media Extender but stop and think that the early adopters of this are going to have the hard drive portion of the DVR, again with iTV thats the "tube" to get it to the TV. With a tuner card you have your DVR

Most of the recording I am doing right now is using my iMac and EyeTV and that extra program with anIR blaster to change the channels. It works just like my Tivo _except_ unlike my Tivo I can get stuff off to put on my iPod or burn a DVD. All I use the Tivo for now is as a back up.

Since it is the "getting stuff off" thing...hey sounds like the vaporware called Tivo To Go for Mac...that bothers most people, I can see Tivo taking a hit.

Oh one more thing, what Steve Jobs showed was what the have now, all be it a pre-production model. What happens if you expand the size of that box to the size of a MacMini, throw a TV card in it and some software (or software upgrade to Front Row)......

Instant Apple version of Tivo. :up:


----------



## Fofer

Would be nice if they threw in a Wi-Fi antenna too, allow the thing to act as a whole home router/Airport.


----------



## tonyf3

derekcbart said:


> Here's another great article. This one is by Robert Cringely.
> http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20060914.html
> 
> This is a follow-up to his prediction of the iTV from a year ago. It also addresses why it isn't going to be a DVR to begin with and how it will become one over time.


You're right! Great article. I think he's right on the money.


----------



## porieux

I will be canceling my $20 a month TiVo service.

Sorry TiVo, you can't just piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

There are other options for Mac users.

http://www.elgato.com/

and the new iTV.

Sorry TiVo, you blew it. :down:


----------



## homertime

porieux said:


> I will be canceling my $20 a month TiVo service.
> 
> Sorry TiVo, you can't just piss down my back and tell me it's raining.
> 
> There are other options for Mac users.
> 
> http://www.elgato.com/
> 
> and the new iTV.
> 
> Sorry TiVo, you blew it. :down:


I'm right there with you. I'm tired of the lack of support, and continuously slowing speed of the menus, TV Guide, and other features. Not to mention the obnoxious pricing of the HD box. I'd rather buy a new mac mini, or iMac, or used car, or 6 year supply of toilet paper... all things more useful then the price of Tivo.

I'm sending my last email to them, and canceling.

Edit: Did I say email? Just found out they don't accept emails anymore... probably because I kept on *****ing to them.

Then they'll get their last phone call, and I'm canceling.


----------



## 2farrell

homertime said:


> I'm right there with you. I'm tired of the lack of support, and continuously slowing speed of the menus, TV Guide, and other features. Not to mention the obnoxious pricing of the HD box. I'd rather buy a new mac mini, or iMac, or used car, or 6 year supply of toilet paper... all things more useful then the price of Tivo.
> 
> I'm sending my last email to them, and canceling.
> 
> Edit: Did I say email? Just found out they don't accept emails anymore... probably because I kept on *****ing to them.
> 
> Then they'll get their last phone call, and I'm canceling.


And don't forget the now the Series 3 doesn't have TTG right now.
That probably means in the unlikely event they do release TTG for the Mac it'll be another 2 or 3 years before it'll download shows from the S3.
I hope that Elgato release a HD box with CableCard support. That day, I'll ditch TiVo.


----------



## timg

I'm sure they will release TivoToGo for the Series 3 before they release TivoToGo for Mac.


----------



## cwoody222

timg said:


> I'm sure they will release TivoToGo for the Series 3 before they release TivoToGo for Mac.


I'd take that bet but I don't want to lose money!


----------



## porieux

The irony is that there is so little on TV that I watch anyway, I could probably get by with buying a few things from the iTunes store (now that they are high enough res) and finding the odd thing here or there.


----------



## schalliol

Bringing the thread back on track: Tomorrow it will be Fall 2006. While I haven't read all 50 pages of this thread, last I heard TiVo said that TTG for Mac would be available this Summer. TiVo, what gives? Did I missunderstand statments made by TiVo folks, or do we have an updated timeline?


----------



## cwoody222

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4330573&&#post4330573


----------



## homertime

schalliol said:


> Bringing the thread back on track: Tomorrow it will be Fall 2006. While I haven't read all 50 pages of this thread, last I heard TiVo said that TTG for Mac would be available this Summer. TiVo, what gives? Did I missunderstand statments made by TiVo folks, or do we have an updated timeline?


You don't have to read any of the 50 pages... Just go out and buy something else, Tivo doesn't want our dirty Apple money.

What gives? They can't meet deadlines, and can't be honest about it, meaning they suck at life.

The updated timeline equals sometime in the future if at all ever. I'll pay for a service for less money for fewer features so that I'm not paying for a feature that only some customers can appreciate.


----------



## Rosincrans

Tivo would at least be smart to have a supported Go Back feature before iTV comes out. If I hadn't already been using the Go Back feature thanks to this forum, I'd be a lot more tempted by iTV. And if iTV ever becomes a DVR I probably will jump ship.


----------



## homertime

I guess we're giving up.

Maybe instead of *****ing we should be doing something, like bombarding their fax machine with letters of discontent demanding answers.

Or maybe submit one of those "suggestions" requests daily, each of us... all with the same thing


Our 1500 posts and 100,000 views are clearly getting us nowhere, and my contract's not done until march... so why don't we do something?

I'll even draft a letter for you guys, so we can mass send it... all I need to know is that there's interest in doing something like that, and that people actually will.

Thoughts?


----------



## southerndoc

homertime said:


> I guess we're giving up.
> 
> Maybe instead of *****ing we should be doing something, like bombarding their fax machine with letters of discontent demanding answers.
> 
> Or maybe submit one of those "suggestions" requests daily, each of us... all with the same thing
> 
> Our 1500 posts and 100,000 views are clearly getting us nowhere, and my contract's not done until march... so why don't we do something?
> 
> I'll even draft a letter for you guys, so we can mass send it... all I need to know is that there's interest in doing something like that, and that people actually will.
> 
> Thoughts?


 Or just keep writing letters to Tom Rogers, TiVo's CEO.


----------



## Fofer

homertime said:


> Our 1500 posts and 100,000 views are clearly getting us nowhere, and my contract's not done until march...


What contract?


----------



## southerndoc

I think we'll eventually get TiVo-to-Go for Mac. Perhaps TiVo was waiting on the Series 3 to be released, for CableLabs to allow transfers from Series 3 to computers, and to release it in Universal code.

I'm sure TiVo has a reason for the delay. They said they were working on a Mac version, so I'm sure they are.


----------



## donsullivan

homertime said:


> I guess we're giving up.
> 
> Maybe instead of *****ing we should be doing something, like bombarding their fax machine with letters of discontent demanding answers.
> 
> Or maybe submit one of those "suggestions" requests daily, each of us... all with the same thing
> 
> Our 1500 posts and 100,000 views are clearly getting us nowhere, and my contract's not done until march... so why don't we do something?
> 
> I'll even draft a letter for you guys, so we can mass send it... all I need to know is that there's interest in doing something like that, and that people actually will.
> 
> Thoughts?


I gave up. After over 18 months of TiVo's complete disrespect for this segment of their customer base I cancelled the service on my Series 2 and put it back in the box. It will likely hit eBay in the next week or so. As D* begins finalizing the feature set of their replacement HD DVR (need OTA tuner) I'll start replacing my DTiVo's (4) with D* hardware and be done with TiVo completely.

After 7 years as a TiVo customer (purchased 15 boxes for personal use or gifts over the years) and supporter I just can no longer bring myselft to support a company that treats their customers in this way. All indications suggest that this feature is not coming for the Mac, it was never coming and TiVo will continue with vagueries around it to string people along but not deliver.

This is not a technology problem any more, it's solely about a poorly managed company that seems fundamentally unable to be honest with their customers and/or themselves. They have clearly decided that not investing in making this feature available on the Mac does not impact their business and find themselves unable to make a statement to that effect. Their actions have made it for them.

I'll likely continue following the topic, if only as an academic exercise but have no confidence that anything is going to change very soon.


----------



## Dr_Zoidberg

I am not. TiVo is stll a valid service for me, because I bought the lifetime subscription, which has paid for itself since I got the unit.

I would have lept at the new series 3 model if it were $499 or less. I have Windows at home so the compatability's not a major issue.


----------



## cwoody222

Fofer said:


> What contract?


Probably his TiVo Service Agreement which now has minimum service terms, just like cell phones.


----------



## homertime

Fofer said:


> What contract?


I'm sorry I misspoke... I meant subscription. Paid for 1 full year.


----------



## derekcbart

I just got this rather cryptic email from TiVo CEO Tom Rogers:

Thanks for the feedback. We are working on the mac issues hard. More to come.​
I had emailed him about the Series 3 Shipping Fiasco/Lack of Communication and mentioned that I was used to a lack of communication from TiVo because I was a Mac user.


----------



## tonyf3

This is a joke right? 
They don't take email anymore but you got Tom Rodgers to respond to you?
You should have sent him the link to this thread. 
Post his email address so we can all give him a piece of our minds. 
Although I think Cwoody will just go off on him just for the hell of it.

So instead of "TiVo is working hard on supporting TTG for Mac" 
It's now: "We are working on the Mac issues hard." Almost 3 years from the announcement, and 2 years from initial release.
Way to stay on message Tom! OMG!!!!


----------



## derekcbart

All corporate TiVo email addresses are [email protected], so Tom Rogers is [email protected]. I wrote to everyone listed on the TiVo Executive Management Team page using that format and only one email was returned.

Tom Rogers has been responding to every email regarding the Series 3 VIP Shipping Fiasco. The initial email response is a form letter, but if you reply to the form letter then he answers you personally (if a little cryptic).


----------



## cwoody222

F'in' joke. Seriously.


----------



## icurnvs

What I don't understand is why the NowPlaying dashboard widget has no problems downloading Tivo shows off my Tivo and it's so hard to get Tivo (the company) to get TivoToGo support to us. Is it the playback of the .tivo files that's so hard? <shrug>


----------



## cwoody222

icurnvs said:


> Is it the playback of the .tivo files that's so hard? <shrug>


Yes.


----------



## tonyf3

derekcbart said:


> All corporate TiVo email addresses are [email protected], so Tom Rogers is [email protected]. I wrote to everyone listed on the TiVo Executive Management Team page using that format and only one email was returned.
> 
> Tom Rogers has been responding to every email regarding the Series 3 VIP Shipping Fiasco. The initial email response is a form letter, but if you reply to the form letter then he answers you personally (if a little cryptic).


Thanks!
I will show restraint in articulating how disenfranchised we feel.


----------



## donsullivan

derekcbart said:


> All corporate TiVo email addresses are [email protected], so Tom Rogers is [email protected]. I wrote to everyone listed on the TiVo Executive Management Team page using that format and only one email was returned.
> 
> Tom Rogers has been responding to every email regarding the Series 3 VIP Shipping Fiasco. The initial email response is a form letter, but if you reply to the form letter then he answers you personally (if a little cryptic).


While I can't directly dispute that you indeed heard from Tom Rogers directly in the email, I do have to wonder if it was actually him or a PR resources. In companies I've worked for in the past, the CEO's common format email address was actually routed to the Customer Relations group who responded to nearly 95% of the contacts received. We created a separate non-standard addressing format address that the CEO used for his own correspondence. He then had the choice of who he provided that email address to and only reviewed messages to that address.

It's actually a very common technique used by many senior executives of companies so they don't get flooded with emails directly from customers that they couldn't possibly have time or appropriate data to respond to accurately. It ensures that the customer gets a consistent response and keeps the executive out of the weeds a little.

In these cases, the CR folks would route the messages around the company for answers and then reply back as if it was him responding with the party line response, or specific details as appropriate. If the message should go to the CEO they could forward it to the private mailbox.


----------



## cwoody222

I'd hope that that poorly worded 3 sentence reply came from a 'busy CEO' himself rather than an underling who's job is to represent the CEO.

If I was a CEO and someone sent an email on my behalf with the phrase "working on the mac issues hard" I'd fire them.


----------



## Bighouse

I can see any technology developer making decisions on where to pour their R&D dollars (and support dollars) in terms of market share and all of that, so I won't belabor that issue.

But, what I don't get is if all of the recent "PC bashing" Apple ads I see on TV touting the ability of apples to do anything a PC can do, only faster, better, more hip, cooler, etc (right out of the box)....AND, all of the sales persons tell me (as do so many of my Apple friends) that they can emulate a PC and run any kind of software on it they want to, why this is such an issue for you guys with Macs?

I thought you could emulate and run Windows on your Macs? Educate me please. Why can't you simply run your Intel/Windows based Tivo software in emulation mode?


----------



## cwoody222

Bighouse said:


> I thought you could emulate and run Windows on your Macs? Educate me please. Why can't you simply run your Intel/Windows based Tivo software in emulation mode?


'Cause I have a PowerPC Mac.

'Cause I don't want to reboot. 'Cause I don't want to reboot into my secondary OS to do a basic function.

'Cause I own an Intel Mac but not a software license for Windows.

'Cause emulation programs can be slow.

'Cause I don't want to have to reboot into Windows just to run a decrypting program (that is not authorized by TiVo) and then have to get the file back to my preferred OS for playback.

'Cause TiVo promised us and owes us the same functionality Windows users enjoy.

'Cause I said so


----------



## Fofer

cwoody222, tonyf3, just curious as you both seem to be amongst the most persistent in this thread... why have you not just hacked your TiVo's already? TiVoTool works like a charm, and offers a lot that TiVoDesktop does not.

Yeah, I know that this "petition" to get TiVo to deliver as promised is much about the principle of it all, but in the meantime, you'd could enjoy all of the same benefits, with none of this silly aggravation and corporate double-speak. Life's too short to wait/complain/wait/be disappointed/wait/complain all the time.


----------



## Bighouse

cwoody222 said:


> 'Cause I have a PowerPC Mac.
> 
> 'Cause I don't want to reboot. 'Cause I don't want to reboot into my secondary OS to do a basic function.
> 
> 'Cause I own an Intel Mac but not a software license for Windows.
> 
> 'Cause emulation programs can be slow.
> 
> 'Cause I don't want to have to reboot into Windows just to run a decrypting program (that is not authorized by TiVo) and then have to get the file back to my preferred OS for playback.
> 
> 'Cause TiVo promised us and owes us the same functionality Windows users enjoy.
> 
> 'Cause I said so


Sounds complicated. I thought Macs were easy and elegant?


----------



## Fofer

Bighouse said:


> I thought Macs were easy and elegant?


Did you really? Or are you just baiting?


----------



## Bighouse

Fofer said:


> Did you really? Or are you just baiting?


A little bit of both! I actually wish I could run a Mac- but not because I think they're better- I do think they're more beautiful by far than any PC could ever be. I'd love to work with a machine on a daily basis and at home that had such a clean line and attention to design and detailing that the Mac does.
But, I have to choose my box based on the software I need to run for my job and occupation, not the other way around. No computer manufacturing company owns my soul...but I'd much rather have a pretty box than an ugly one if all other things were equal!

So, as someone interested in good/elegant design (I'm an architect with modernistic leanings) I've always enjoyed the products Apple has put out, but only from a distance. I'm intrigued by them and EVERY time I go to CompUSA and study their clean lines while there for some other purchase. The salesmen always come up to me and say (after I tell them the software packages I MUST be able to run) "Oh, you can run that on a Mac in emulation mode, it's easy and it works great"...and I know from others, like yourself, that it's not always rosy and easy and elegant.

So, I'm always slightly confused by the product, in part because of its followers. I'm also slightly amused that the greatest designed box out in the world, has the least support and software available for it...and yet its acolytes typically fall lockstep in stride, failing to see that perhaps its greatest strength is its true weakness. I'm reminded of the 1984 great commercial apple made, tossing the hammer of apple into the IBM dictator- and somehow feel that the cultish followers of the 1984 figure might actually be Apple advocates themselves.


----------



## Fofer

Bighouse said:


> I'm also slightly amused that the greatest designed box out in the world, has the least support and software available for it...


This part just isn't true. There are a few frustrating standouts (ie: witness this thread) but there's lots and lots of support and lots and lots of software in the Mac ecosystem. I like to think about it this way: There may be 100,000 apps for Windows, but only 1,000 are any good... the rest suck! There may be 10,000 apps for Mac, but 3,000 of them are excellent.

And I only need 100 of them, anyway.


----------



## southerndoc

I also received a cryptic email from Tom Rogers about TTG for Mac: "stay tuned."

I think they are developing software for the Mac. Perhaps it got delayed with the switch to Intel chips (and they wanted to make it Universal), perhaps it had features in it that waited on the release of the Series 3 and CableLabs approval, or perhaps they have features in it that can't be released right now.

Imagine if the holdup for TTG for Mac was due to compatibility with Apple's recently previewed iTV device. If you could use TTG for Mac to move things from your TiVo to the iTV, or if TiVo software was written for the iTV, then it would justify holding TTG for Mac until the iTV was released.

I think TiVo is up to something that can justify the delay.


----------



## Bighouse

Fofer said:


> And I only need 100 of them, anyway.


We're actually in the same boat in an odd way. I'm in it because I have to choose my box based on my software needs while you have to choose your software based on your box's needs.

I do await for a day, in the near future I think, when Apple comes out with an entirely WINDOWS based box. I'll buy that one for sure...and I think the begrudgingly/smearing/flaming advertisement campaign currently underway for their Intel based boxes portend a trend that will one day (I hope) lead to an all Windows based Apple of some sort.

I love some programs that were originally written for the Apple. I use Adobe Photoshop a lot, and Premiere as well. Do you run any applications originally targeted exclusively for a Windows box like Outlook, MS Office, Excel, Word, IE or any others?

Again, I'm not baiting- I really am engaged by Apples products and hope one day I can legitimize owning one.


----------



## Fofer

geekmedic said:


> Imagine if the holdup for TTG for Mac was due to compatibility with Apple's recently previewed iTV device. If you could use TTG for Mac to move things from your TiVo to the iTV, or if TiVo software was written for the iTV, then it would justify holding TTG for Mac until the iTV was released.


Oh my. You are a much bigger optimist than I. (And I'm a pretty big optimist.)

No. When/if TTG for Mac comes out, I predict it will be elegant and stable, but with a subset of the features that the Windows counterpart has. And it certainly wouldn't interface with the iTV. It'll have some proprietary DRM wrapper that restricts it, or something.

It would be cool if TiVo somehow worked out using Apple "Fairplay" DRM... but I just can't see it. The track record (of both companies) tells me otherwise.


----------



## Fofer

Bighouse said:


> I do await for a day, in the near future I think, when Apple comes out with an entirely WINDOWS based box. I'll buy that one for sure...and I think the begrudgingly/smearing/flaming advertisement campaign currently underway for their Intel based boxes portend a trend that will one day (I hope) lead to an all Windows based Apple of some sort.


I don't think you'll see something like that. What you will see, more likely, is an update to OS X that'll include the ability to run Windows apps more seamlessly. Think the next generation of BootCamp (Windows partition, rebooting necessary); Parallels (Windows virtualization, run apps in a window); CrossOver (run Windows apps within the Mac environment) leading the way to ... one OS that rules them all and can run any and all apps. I have to say, CrossOver is pretty sleek and paves the way for that sort of notion.

http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/



Bighouse said:


> Do you run any applications originally targeted exclusively for a Windows box like Outlook, MS Office, Excel, Word, IE or any others?


Sure, I use Word and Excel.

Keynote is better than Powerpoint, and Safari is better than IE.

I recently switched from Entourage (Microsoft's version of Outlook for Mac) to Gmail, but Apple's Mail program is a worthy contender too.


----------



## cwoody222

Fofer said:


> cwoody222, tonyf3, just curious as you both seem to be amongst the most persistent in this thread... why have you not just hacked your TiVo's already? TiVoTool works like a charm, and offers a lot that TiVoDesktop does not.


I've read the instructions. I'm not that savvy enough nor do I have access things like a linux HD to hook up to my TiVo or taking out the TiVo HD and plugging it into a PC or any of the other stuff I've used.

My home equipment consists of an old CRT iMac and the TiVo and a Wireless network... not quite enough to do the hacking myself.

And I haven't had the desire to send it out somewhere and pay for it to be hacked.


----------



## cwoody222

geekmedic said:


> I also received a cryptic email from Tom Rogers about TTG for Mac: "stay tuned."
> 
> I think they are developing software for the Mac. Perhaps it got delayed with the switch to Intel chips (and they wanted to make it Universal), perhaps it had features in it that waited on the release of the Series 3 and CableLabs approval, or perhaps they have features in it that can't be released right now.
> 
> Imagine if the holdup for TTG for Mac was due to compatibility with Apple's recently previewed iTV device. If you could use TTG for Mac to move things from your TiVo to the iTV, or if TiVo software was written for the iTV, then it would justify holding TTG for Mac until the iTV was released.
> 
> I think TiVo is up to something that can justify the delay.


Justify the 2 year delay?

Nah, don't think so.

They just haven't been able to figure it out yet. "Wah wah, it's too hard", they say. "Give us more time, we're trying really hard, we swear!" they say.

I stopped believing anything they said long ago.

The ONLY time I will believe any progress is/had being made is the day they offer the final Mac software for public download.


----------



## timg

Bighouse said:


> Do you run any applications originally targeted exclusively for a Windows box like Outlook, MS Office, Excel, Word, IE or any others?


Excel was actually released for Mac before it was released on Windows (actually before there was a real "Windows" OS - I don't count Windows 1.0 as a real OS).


----------



## EwanG

But Tivo IS listening! The Series 3 has come out, and doesn't support TTG or GoBack. So now Windows and Mac users have the same user experience...


----------



## Unix_Beard

Bighouse said:


> We're actually in the same boat in an odd way. I'm in it because I have to choose my box based on my software needs while you have to choose your software based on your box's needs.
> 
> I do await for a day, in the near future I think, when Apple comes out with an entirely WINDOWS based box. I'll buy that one for sure...and I think the begrudgingly/smearing/flaming advertisement campaign currently underway for their Intel based boxes portend a trend that will one day (I hope) lead to an all Windows based Apple of some sort.
> 
> I love some programs that were originally written for the Apple. I use Adobe Photoshop a lot, and Premiere as well. Do you run any applications originally targeted exclusively for a Windows box like Outlook, MS Office, Excel, Word, IE or any others?
> 
> Again, I'm not baiting- I really am engaged by Apples products and hope one day I can legitimize owning one.


If you honestly believe Steve Jobs would come out with a Windows box, you haven't been following along. It will be a cold day in hell when Jobs puts an inferior operating system on his machines.

I just got one those nifty new Intel iMacs. I set it up to dual boot Windows and I still haven't come up with anything to use the Windows partition for. Even when I have to administer a Windows box for work, I still end up using the RDC client for Macintosh.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Bighouse said:


> A little bit of both! I actually wish I could run a Mac- but not because I think they're better- I do think they're more beautiful by far than any PC could ever be. I'd love to work with a machine on a daily basis and at home that had such a clean line and attention to design and detailing that the Mac does.
> But, I have to choose my box based on the software I need to run for my job and occupation, not the other way around. No computer manufacturing company owns my soul...but I'd much rather have a pretty box than an ugly one if all other things were equal!
> 
> So, as someone interested in good/elegant design (I'm an architect with modernistic leanings) I've always enjoyed the products Apple has put out, but only from a distance. I'm intrigued by them and EVERY time I go to CompUSA and study their clean lines while there for some other purchase. The salesmen always come up to me and say (after I tell them the software packages I MUST be able to run) "Oh, you can run that on a Mac in emulation mode, it's easy and it works great"...and I know from others, like yourself, that it's not always rosy and easy and elegant.
> 
> So, I'm always slightly confused by the product, in part because of its followers. I'm also slightly amused that the greatest designed box out in the world, has the least support and software available for it...and yet its acolytes typically fall lockstep in stride, failing to see that perhaps its greatest strength is its true weakness. I'm reminded of the 1984 great commercial apple made, tossing the hammer of apple into the IBM dictator- and somehow feel that the cultish followers of the 1984 figure might actually be Apple advocates themselves.


The short answer to your question above is that most Mac users have PowerPC based Macs and not Intel Macs. Intel macs can run Windows XP natively and dual boot. Even people that own Intel Macs would rather not shell out $199 for a Windows XP license.

I'm curious. What software do you use that shackles you to a PC?

Are you old enough to be aware of the context of the 1984 commercial?


----------



## SullyND

Unix_Beard said:


> If you honestly believe Steve Jobs would come out with a Windows box, you haven't been following along. It will be a cold day in hell when Jobs puts an inferior operating system on his machines.


Really? I doubt Windows would ever be the default OS, but installing Windows as an application (as a means to a seemless bootcamp/parallels type experience) I can certainly see.



Unix_Beard said:


> I'm curious. What software do you use that shackles you to a PC?


My guess is, as an architect, he is tied to AutoCAD as am I.


----------



## Puppy76

Bighouse, there's no emulation needed at all on any current (Intel based) Macs. You just run Windows directly (or side by side with OS X with virtualization software, or run programs through Wine, etc.).

You could buy a Mac now and only run Windows on it, if you really wanted to.

Anyway, Tivo's lack of OS X support is pretty uncommon, and is Tivo's fault. They just need software that decrypts their DRM and passes it to a video player (or to iDVD, whatever.). It's especially weird as it's THEIR DRM, and on top of that there are plenty of open source players they could modify if for some reason Quicktime or the DVD player aren't suitable as players.


----------



## Bighouse

SullyND said:


> My guess is, as an architect, he is tied to AutoCAD as am I.


Correct. AutoCAD hasn't been coded for a Mac platform since release 12, and that was like...oh, centuries ago. And I doubt very much that it would run perfectly on even an Intel based Mac box...it often doesn't run well enough even for the platform it's written for!!!

And yes, Unix_Beard, I'm certainly old enough to remember the content of the 1984 commercial- I'm probably older than you! I was born in the 50's...does that quality me as having been around long enough???

Cheers,

Robert


----------



## Bighouse

Unix_Beard said:


> If you honestly believe Steve Jobs would come out with a Windows box, you haven't been following along. It will be a cold day in hell when Jobs puts an inferior operating system on his machines.


Please, I've never called the Apple inferior- don't go getting yourself worked up with hystrionics. I do admire the machines...just can't use one. We get what we deserve- and if you choose a system that has a very small market share, then you get the software that developers can legitimately affort to market for it.

I think that the "it will be a cold day in hell" line was probably said long ago by many other Apple users too. Only they probably said something like "It will be a cold day in hell when Jobs puts the ability to run Windows on one of his machines or jumps into the sack with Intel."

Hell could freeze over. Anything's possible. Actually, if Apple really wanted to rock the world, they'd do just that. Imagine the power and might and cache Jobs would have if suddenly his computers were the standard used in the business and consumer industry? Imagine if Apple had a 90% share of computers worldwide and not 4-10%.


----------



## Puppy76

But you can buy one to use exclusivly for Windows now, and it would be somewhat pointless if they started just selling Windows PCs. I'm sure as a last ditch thing they might, but probably their market share's only going to grow with their current hardware.


----------



## TheSlyBear

Yes, as puppy76 pointed out, since you can run either or both of Windows and OS X on the Intel boxes I don't see that there's any market need for one that would _only_ run Windows.


----------



## macrob

Bighouse said:


> Hell could freeze over. Anything's possible. Actually, if Apple really wanted to rock...


Hell has already froze over, the day Apple released iTunes for windows... anyone remember apples website from that day ?


----------



## TydalForce

Apple won't ship Macs with Windows.

Likewise, I don't believe we'll see "Built-In Emulation" to natively run Windows applications.

Why? Because even if they did do that, even with Apple's talent and genius, they'd still be Windows applications. And a Windows application wouldn't "fit right" within the Mac OS.

And it would be too good of an excuse for the developers to not write Mac OS native software. Why write better-coded, better-fit Mac software when they can say "Oh, we wrote it for Windows. You can run that. Live with it"

Boot Camp will get better. Parallels will get better. Development will get better and easier. Everything will improve.

But Apple won't "give you" Windows compatibility at the application level like that.


----------



## Fofer

TydalForce said:


> Boot Camp will get better. Parallels will get better.


Don't forget CrossOver! So far, I'm impressed. The compatibility list will grow. But it's serving my (admittedly minimal) needs very well right now. I just "installed" Internet Explorer 6.0 on my Mac.


----------



## ccooperev

There are now rumours out there that Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) will have DVR capabilities (akin to Windows Media Center) with the ability to stream that to iTV. This would be an interesting scenario. This might of course create a viable alternative to TIVO.


----------



## Bighouse

Puppy76 said:


> But you can buy one to use exclusivly for Windows now, and it would be somewhat pointless if they started just selling Windows PCs. I'm sure as a last ditch thing they might, but probably their market share's only going to grow with their current hardware.


Yeah, that ipod thing is amazing!


----------



## Bighouse

Well, I hope that Tivo gets the software ported and released for Macs soon...and one day maybe, if fortune smiles on me and Steve Jobs ever decides he wants to see Apple conquer the computing world, there will be a Macdows for me!


----------



## Fofer

ccooperev said:


> There are now rumours out there that Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) will have DVR capabilities (akin to Windows Media Center)


With Apple-supplied hardware for the video tuning/channel changing?


----------



## Bighouse

bootedbear said:


> Yes, as puppy76 pointed out, since you can run either or both of Windows and OS X on the Intel boxes I don't see that there's any market need for one that would _only_ run Windows.


BB,

I can see a HUGE market need/share for an Apple that only ran Windows. See, I must run the Windows OS for the appliations I have to use and train/teach on. AutoCAD isn't written for a Mac platform any longer. I've always loved the look and style to the machines AND the interface for a Mac. I even just like the industrial design/fit and finish on them too. They're very, very, very sexy machines.

PC's are, for the most part, butt ugly boxes. A machine that you plunk down a lot of cash for should do what it should do, and it might as well look 'darned purdy' while doing it too.

So, if Apple made a truly Windows based system I'd buy one...me and lots and lots and lots of other people who're in the same boat.

Cheers,

Robert


----------



## TheSlyBear

Bighouse said:


> I can see a HUGE market need/share for an Apple that only ran Windows. See, I must run the Windows OS for the appliations I have to use and train/teach on. AutoCAD isn't written for a Mac platform any longer.


You can do that now, today, on any of the Intel-based Macs.

Why sell one that can't also run OS X?


----------



## southerndoc

I recently ran across these two articles. Although the first is concerning, the second gives us Mac users a slight bit of hope:

http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2005/04/tivo_cfo_no_tiv.html

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-01/tivotogo-for-mac-lives/


----------



## cwoody222

Those articles are from April 2005 and this past Jan, respectively.


----------



## southerndoc

cwoody222 said:


> Those articles are from April 2005 and this past Jan, respectively.


 Yes, what's your point? I know it's been a little late to get the Mac software out.


----------



## cwoody222

Point was that a) it's old news that we've all seen before and b) it's hardly "hope".


----------



## Fofer

Well, I do have to say, while it's old and all, seeing the Mac (alpha? beta?) at CES actually working on a Mac gave me the _only_ glimmer of hope that we'll see this functionality on our Macs... one day.


----------



## southerndoc

Fofer said:


> Well, I do have to say, while it's old and all, seeing the Mac (alpha? beta?) at CES actually working on a Mac gave me the _only_ glimmer of hope that we'll see this functionality on our Macs... one day.


 Agreed. That's why I posted it. Nevertheless, there will always be naysayers. We'll all be happy when TiVo-to-Go for Mac is released.


----------



## cwoody222

All that demo really shows is a TiVo interface for gettings files from the Mac.

The DRM is the problem on the Mac and there's nothing in those demos that shows that those files were protected and that TiVo had made any progress whatsoever enabling Macs to deal w/ the copyright protection.

While the demo showed me that they were working on SOMETHING, the fact that it was 10 months ago and we still don't have anything tells me that it's pretty hopeless.


----------



## southerndoc

cwoody222 said:


> All that demo really shows is a TiVo interface for gettings files from the Mac.
> 
> The DRM is the problem on the Mac and there's nothing in those demos that shows that those files were protected and that TiVo had made any progress whatsoever enabling Macs to deal w/ the copyright protection.
> 
> While the demo showed me that they were working on SOMETHING, the fact that it was 10 months ago and we still don't have anything tells me that it's pretty hopeless.


 I wonder what percentage of TiVo customers have Macs? I've seen a LOT of Mac users on these boards... devoted fans likely to take advantage of TiVo-to-Go.


----------



## TydalForce

i think the correlation between having a Mac and having a TiVo is relatively high... There have been a lot of comparisons between TiVo and Apple, in terms of brand loyalty and "premium" products, etc. 

So the kind of person who would own a TiVo is the kind of person who would own a Mac (and vice versa) 

So, if you want me to pull a number from my posterior, I'd say about 10-15% of TiVo users have Macs. Please note, that number is based on nothing more than speculation and making things up :b


----------



## TheSlyBear

TydalForce said:


> So, if you want me to pull a number from my posterior, I'd say about 10-15% of TiVo users have Macs.


MacWorld puts the estimate at 15%.


----------



## tonyf3

TiVo should release TTG for Mac as Universal binary no later than Q1 07 or it's pretty much all over for them as far as the 10-15% of their Mac users. Apple iTV will quickly overtake, increase feature set, out develope natively on Mac hardware and software. Apple's boxes will in less time than this thread has existed make the whole Mac TTG thing moot.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/hands-on-with-the-apple-itv-prototype/


----------



## dropd

ccooperev said:


> There are now rumours out there that Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) will have DVR capabilities (akin to Windows Media Center) with the ability to stream that to iTV. This would be an interesting scenario. This might of course create a viable alternative to TIVO.


Imagine the following scenario:

* A mac mini and/or an iMac with a multistream cablecard slot built into it and/or an option to tune OTA digital TV signals via a usb dongle (like the ElGato EyeTV Hybrid device you can get for only about $150 or so).

* DVR/"media management" software built into iLife that can record/store at HD res, but that will also auto-convert shows of your choice to iPod friendly resolutions and file sizes.

* iTV devices on any tv in your house that can't be hooked up to your mac directly.

a 24" iMac with a cablecard slot would be a pretty impressive little all-purpose box for a bedroom, for example.

If something like that ever came to fruition, I would absolutely dump tivo in a heartbeat.


----------



## Lon

Recently, I wrote to Elgato asking about future cablecard compatible products. This was the reply I received:



> The use of CableCards on computers depends on the cable industry. In general, they are against it - they fear copying/sharing of content.
> 
> 2007 might see limited solutions on Windows, from a few manufacturers like ATI. But, that means the whole computer has to be certified - you can't just go out and buy a CableCard "box".
> 
> A few years after that might see such limited access on the Mac. It depends on many things.
> 
> So, CableCard use on computers is uncertain. If it does happen in the next few years, there will be lots of limitations and DRM.


Not great news.


----------



## dropd

Lon said:


> Recently, I wrote to Elgato asking about future cablecard compatible products. This was the reply I received:
> 
> Not great news.


Yeah, not great news. Though I will make the small point that Apple certainly has way more leverage than El Gato towards that end.

As we've seen with TiVo though, getting certified by CableLabs seems pretty hellish.


----------



## Lon

I will say this: that my question about cablecard support was answered the same day by a representative of Elgato Systems! Imagine, a company that considers communication with its customers important!


----------



## CardiacKid32

Since tivo is trying to get cable card corp approval for tivo2go and the eSATA port, I don't think you will see any new tivo desktop released except for maybe a minor bug fix update. I've been thru security audits and one of the first things that always happens is the reduction of scope (the amount of software which has to be audited). This is done to streamline and hopeful speed up the approval process. I believe that tivo already has a mac version of the tivo desktop with tivo2go enabled ready to go and you will see it after tivo2go for the series 3 is approved.


----------



## Lon

Let me get this straight: you say that just because of the approval process, TiVo has been holding back on releasing an already finished mac product? Isn't that a bit dishonest (not just to mac users but) with the CableCard group? It seems to me that the certification process deals with the box (series 3) and *its* software -- not necessarily other computers' software, especially if all the DRM coding to satisfy the CC group is done onboard the series 3. But then I know nothing of how this is done in reality.


----------



## Budget_HT

There may still be some technical hurdles to resolve. But, then again, there may only be political/business interest hurdles left. 

We all know that perfectly good technical solutions can be hampered or held back by political or business interest issues.


----------



## 2farrell

tonyf3 said:


> TiVo should release TTG for Mac as Universal binary no later than Q1 07 or it's pretty much all over for them as far as the 10-15% of their Mac users. Apple iTV will quickly overtake, increase feature set, out develope natively on Mac hardware and software. Apple's boxes will in less time than this thread has existed make the whole Mac TTG thing moot.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/hands-on-with-the-apple-itv-prototype/


And then TiVo's problems will be over.
They can do what they've done for the last two years but no longer pretend they care about Mac Users.
If iTV (or whatever it will be called) come out before TTG for Mac, I will either sell my TiVo boxes on eBay or junk them if it ends up being too much trouble.


----------



## homertime

tonyf3 said:


> TiVo should release TTG for Mac as Universal binary no later than Q1 07 or it's pretty much all over for them as far as the 10-15% of their Mac users. Apple iTV will quickly overtake, increase feature set, out develope natively on Mac hardware and software. Apple's boxes will in less time than this thread has existed make the whole Mac TTG thing moot.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/hands-on-with-the-apple-itv-prototype/


AHH someone finally said it... I wanted to...

This is so true. Amongst all the other things we COULD do right now - eye TV, external DVD burners, etc, this will be what brings Mac Tivo users away from Tivo...


----------



## Fofer

Budget_HT said:


> We all know that perfectly good technical solutions can be hampered or held back by political or business interest issues.


Of course. In this case, it's DRM. The "alpha" demo at CES was working on Macs (playing via VLC.) I grab files off my (hacked) TiVo's and play them just fine on my Mac using QuickTime Player (and the MPEG-2) plug-in. TiVoTool for Mac formats it nicely for the iPod/PSP too.

The thing holding up the Mac support is the DRM, a business interest issue.


----------



## robreams

So at this point, what's the best method for getting content from digital cable onto a Mac?


----------



## macrob

Fofer said:


> I grab files off my (hacked) TiVo's and play them just fine on my Mac using QuickTime Player (and the MPEG-2) plug-in.


What Kind of Tivo do you have? I looked into hacking mine, but found info stating that most of the series 2 Tivos are unhackable without replacing a specific chip on the board.

I would like to hack mine, but my soldering skills are not that good, so a software solution would be my prefferred option.


----------



## Fofer

macrob said:


> What Kind of Tivo do you have?


A pair of HDVR2's, which are Series 2 DirecTiVo's.


----------



## EwanG

robreams said:


> So at this point, what's the best method for getting content from digital cable onto a Mac?


If you're not worried about viewing it on the Mac, just backing it up to show on the Tivo again later, then you can use Galleon - which works on Windows, Linux, and the Mac.

If you want to view it on the Mac, your best bet is to play back the show, hook a cable to one of the other Tivo outputs, and do a capture to the Mac using a DV or USB capture device.

FWIW,
Ewan


----------



## schalliol

Wow, what a terrible method. Yes, I guess it's better than nothing, but boy is TiVo really frustrating its customers to make us go to such levels. I'm not sure why TiVo needs to keep plans secret.


----------



## Fofer

EwanG said:


> If you're not worried about viewing it on the Mac, just backing it up to show on the Tivo again later, then you can use Galleon - which works on Windows, Linux, and the Mac.
> 
> If you want to view it on the Mac, your best bet is to play back the show, hook a cable to one of the other Tivo outputs, and do a capture to the Mac using a DV or USB capture device.


Or hack the TiVo (if you can) and use TiVoWeb/TiVoTool to stream/download shows.


----------



## ccoulson

I can't believe it! NOBODY updated this thread in the past day? Oh, wait, I just did... 

C'mon Tivo, give us our TivoToGo for Mac! And give us TivoToGo for Series3! Oh, and give us multi-room viewing for the Series3!


----------



## homertime

Fofer said:


> Or hack the TiVo (if you can) and use TiVoWeb/TiVoTool to stream/download shows.


why would anyone want to waste their time & money by doing that when the company we are paying should provide support to all of its users?


----------



## Fofer

homertime said:


> why would anyone want to waste their time & money by doing that when the company we are paying should provide support to all of its users?


 

Perhaps the company "should," but as of now, they're not. And so rather than ***** and moan about it for two years (with nothing to show for it) I guess I'm just happy that there's an option that allows me to take matters into my own hands.

So I've got the best computer OS on the planet, the best PVR, and can transfer shows whenever I want. I hardly see that as a waste of time. Sure, in a perfect world, TiVo would offer this "officially." But they don't. And I hardly think that me hacking my TiVo will change that in any way. So I was just throwing it out as a suggestion, to other folks who might agree... life's too short.


----------



## trip1eX

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4414408&highlight=visualhub#post4414408


----------



## Fofer

trip1eX said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4414408&highlight=visualhub#post4414408


Thanks for this link; it tells us about an easy way to enable TiVo-GoBack from a Mac. But it has nothing to do with TiVo To Go. So I'm not entirely sure why you've posted it in this thread.


----------



## trip1eX

Fofer said:


> Thanks for this link; it tells us about an easy way to enable TiVo-GoBack from a Mac. But it has nothing to do with TiVo To Go. So I'm not entirely sure why you've posted it in this thread.


Well thanks for your concern.

Obviously this 52 page thread has been totally on topic with every post dripping with info about Tivo to Go with never a mention of VisualHub or related Tivo features and I have cluttered it up with a totally off-topic post. Sorry.

For those that are waiting for tivo to go and want another good use for their tivo then check out visualhub. You can turn your tivo into a poor man's iTV.


----------



## Fofer

http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/movie_tv/nowplayingtivowidget.html


----------



## derekcbart

New version:
http://www.dashboardwidgets.com/showcase/details.php?wid=281


----------



## ccoulson

Called Tivo support today and asked the latest status on TTG for Mac. I loved the reponse so much I just had to share it with rest... Her response was "we have been working very hard on Tivo To Go for Mac for over two years now, but Apple is making it very difficult for us becuase they keep updating Mac OS X every few months."

No folks, that is not a joke and that is the actual repsonse I got from a second level support tech...

Note to Apple: Please cease all development on Mac OS X and shut down Software Update - we don't want any more bug fixes, security updates, or other enhancements so that Tivo can finish their product. This *must* be why Windows XP has not been updated in so many years - look at the happy XP users that have had TTG for over 2 years now!


----------



## Lon

> "we have been working very hard on Tivo To Go for Mac for over two years now, but Apple is making it very difficult for us becuase they keep updating Mac OS X every few months."


I am speechless!


----------



## Ybot

Lon said:


> I am speechless!


Ugh, I am losing hope that there is a light at the end of the tunnel!!!


----------



## Fofer

ccoulson said:


> "we have been working very hard on Tivo To Go for Mac for over two years now, but Apple is making it very difficult for us becuase they keep updating Mac OS X every few months."


That's absolutely precious.

I'm sure it was working just _fine_ on OS X 10.4.7. And then Apple had to screw everything up by coming out with 10.4.8!  :down:


----------



## southerndoc

Fofer said:


> That's absolutely precious.
> 
> I'm sure it was working just _fine_ on OS X 10.4.7. And then Apple had to screw everything up by coming out with 10.4.8!  :down:


 10.5 is right around the corner.


----------



## Fofer

geekmedic said:


> 10.5 is right around the corner.


Yikes! That darn Apple, Inc. Always a moving target. Oh well, TiVo, just kick back and wait for them to stop innovating. Maybe that'll finally give you a breather to come out with compatible software already.


----------



## tonyf3

Fofer said:


> http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/movie_tv/nowplayingtivowidget.html


I love this widget, been using it for quite a while. You can even download. You just can't play them. Damn you TiVo!


----------



## tonyf3

ccoulson said:


> Called Tivo support today and asked the latest status on TTG for Mac. I loved the reponse so much I just had to share it with rest... Her response was "we have been working very hard on Tivo To Go for Mac for over two years now, but Apple is making it very difficult for us becuase they keep updating Mac OS X every few months."
> 
> No folks, that is not a joke and that is the actual repsonse I got from a second level support tech...
> 
> Note to Apple: Please cease all development on Mac OS X and shut down Software Update - we don't want any more bug fixes, security updates, or other enhancements so that Tivo can finish their product. This *must* be why Windows XP has not been updated in so many years - look at the happy XP users that have had TTG for over 2 years now!


The only thing they've been working hard at is avoiding communicating to us properly!


----------



## timg

tonyf3 said:


> The only thing they've been working hard at is avoiding communicating to us properly!


Actually, they've done a wonderful job avoiding communicating with us AT ALL!

I have a Series 2 with lifetime subscription, so I will continue to use it until it dies. But for anything new, it will not be a Tivo.


----------



## Puppy76

Yup. Tivo's just not making what I need, unfortunatly. A Series 3 with no Tivo 2 Go at all really kills it for me. I'm kind of resigned to trying Netflix once I run out of stuff to watch.


----------



## double_d

TTG doesn't work on a Mac, yet I have to run a Mac to get all the functionality I want with Tivo... read on

http://trialsoftheswitch.com/index.php/2006/09/23/tivo/

DD


----------



## icurnvs

Here's an email I sent Tom Rogers:
Tom,

I think it would be in your best interests to take a gander at the following thread:
(*Inserted URL to this thread, but these forums won't let me post links til 5 posts*)

There are 50+ pages of comments by people discussing the lack of Mac Tivo2Go support. If you'll notice, there are well over 100,000 views on this thread alone. It is easily one of the top viewed threads on the whole tivocommunity site. You've no doubt heard from other frustrated members of the TivoCommunity site. I'm a mostly happy Tivo customer. I'm lucky enough to have both a Mac and PC. I'd like to chuck the PC out the window, but there's one lingering app that I don't have on my Mac. Yep, you guessed it; Tivo Desktop with Tivo2Go support. You have a lot of angry users over there at that site, as well as many more happy ones I'm sure. The people who are looking for Mac support only want information other than the vague "We're hard at work on it! More to come!" To them, that's just a slap in the face. Are the technological hurdles you're facing that big that you can't let TivoPony (or yourself) give the Mac community a little information as to when the software will be released? As you no doubt know, you're going to lose customers to the "iTV". There are several in that thread that have already said that they will be ditching Tivo for the iTV when it's released. I'm not one of them. I, for one, will have both. The iTV and Tivo do two very different (and useful!) things so I will be nabbing both of them. Back to the point. You'll sure make a lot of folks happy if you can give them more information as to the status of this software. I just hope this email doesn't fall on deaf ears.


Here was Tom's response:
Your comments have fully registered. Thanks, Tom


----------



## cwoody222

Wow, he must have worked hard on that response... as hard as they're working on the Mac ToGo software.

Another slap in the face. Another friggin' joke.

I don't know why you even bothered... if TiVo had any desire to give Mac users the ToGo softwar, we'd have it by now. It's not coming. Ever. They're incapable of making it happen.


----------



## murrays

Here's a question:

I'm thinking of getting a Series 3 for our HD set downstairs and transferring our lifetime subscription from our Series 2. One concern is that we do most of our TV watching on the SD set upstairs and Id miss having two DVRs after the year of support for the old box.

Would it be possible to use a Mac to transfer SD .tivo files from a Series 3 (assuming future Series 3 support for TiVotogo) to a Series 2? What happens to a Series 2 when the subscription runs out? Will it still play files stored on the HD?

Basically, Im wondering if I can use the Series 2 without a subscription to view shows recorded on the Series 3.

Thanks
-murray


----------



## cwoody222

I am 99% sure a Series2 can't do ANYTHING without a subscription. Not even trick play with live TV and certainly not 'advanced' features like be networked to your mac.

I think there's even issues with the MPEG formats between the two Series'.

I don't expect MRV or file compatibility between S2 and S3 units for a long time, if ever, sorry.


Anyone else correct me if they disagree or I'm just flat-out wrong


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

murrays said:


> Basically, Im wondering if I can use the Series 2 without a subscription to view shows recorded on the Series 3.


Even if TiVo gets permission to turn on multi-room viewing from the OpenCable folks, _and_ SD MPEG recorded on a Series 3 is compatible with the Series 2, a Series 2 can do nothing at all except trick-play live TV without a subscription.

So, regardless of how the two big "ifs" above work out, the answer is no.

If all you really want to do is watch the S3 in one of the two rooms, or watch the same programming in two rooms simultaneously, you could use a video sender of some sort (A/V baluns, or something like Terk's Leapfrog) to ship the SD video around.


----------



## Fofer

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> If all you really want to do is watch the S3 in one of the two rooms, or watch the same programming in two rooms simultaneously, you could use a video sender of some sort (A/V baluns, or something like Terk's Leapfrog) to ship the SD video around.


Using a modulator would work too... that's actually how I distribute TiVo to TV sets around the house.

For a better picture I've got my bedroom TV wired to my living room TiVo via really long s-video and audio (composite) cables.

I find this preferable to having to "wait" while a TiVo MRV's a show. Also nice that my bedroom doesn't have the "whirrrrr" of a TiVo keeping me up at night (I'm a light sleeper.)

But most importantly, since S3 doesn't do MRV (yet? ever?) it's a system that, as of today, will Just Work.


----------



## murrays

Hmm, ok, I was afraid of that. Perhaps by next year there will be a way to use a Series 3 with an iTV (yeah, right!)

-murray


----------



## gonzotek

cwoody222 said:


> I am 99% sure a Series2 can't do ANYTHING without a subscription. Not even trick play with live TV and certainly not 'advanced' features like be networked to your mac.


From the TiVo Support site(emphasis added by me):


> A TiVo Digital Video Recorder (DVR) is intended for use only with a paid subscription to the TiVo service. Without the TiVo service:
> 
> # A TiVo DVR *has* extremely limited functionality, *e.g., pause, fast-forward, rewind, and slow-mo live TV*.
> 
> # No smart, automatic-recording service functionality is represented or should be expected.
> 
> Note: Series1 DVRs manufactured before October of 2001 are able to make manual time-based recordings without TiVo service if they shipped with software version 1.3 or earlier.





cwoody222 said:


> I think there's even issues with the MPEG formats between the two Series'.


Do you have a reference for this? I'm not aware of any discussions/investigations on the technical qualities of S3 recordings. If such exist, I'm interested in learning about the topic.


----------



## cwoody222

I thought the Series3 used MPEG-4. I see I'm wrong. It CAN do both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 but currently records in 2. So I guess the formats could be compatible.


----------



## cwoody222

If TiVo really wanted to a) put out a good Mac product and b) actually communicate with Mac users they'd take a lesson from the good folks at Slingbox

http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/10/17/slingplayer-mac-public-beta-by-november/


----------



## rworne

Well, I was fairly quiet waiting news for TiVo2go for the Mac.

About 2 weeks ago I disconnected the TiVo and set up a MythTV box. I found the MythTV box is much more Mac-friendly than TiVo could ever hope to be, as well as supplying my videos in MPEG-2 or any other format I desire. Unlike my Series-2, I also get all my OTA stuff via a digital ATSC tuner as well as HD content too.

Now, I'm more disappointed at TiVo than angry, but the lack of new features for Mac owners was a real disappointment. The slowness of the box, which gets worse with every update is horrible (3-5 sec delays on the menus).

My only gripe now is that since I paid for lifetime, TiVo isn't losing a subscriber. Though if I ebay the box, it will prevent them from getting a new one, which is just as good.

Now MythTV has it's quirks and bugs - as well as being a chore to set up - but it certainly performs well as a DVR (and other things). The cost was roughly the same as a new Series-3, and does all the 3 can do and much more.


----------



## donsullivan

cwoody222 said:


> If TiVo really wanted to a) put out a good Mac product and b) actually communicate with Mac users they'd take a lesson from the good folks at Slingbox
> 
> http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/10/17/slingplayer-mac-public-beta-by-november/


I'm not sure I'd use Slingbox as an example of communicating well with their potential Mac customers. They are going through a majorly botched product rollout as it relates to Mac support. The new products they announced in September were advertised on the web site, in their press releases and on the boxes as supporting OS X. It turns out they don't and they can't tell you for sure when they will because there is no software. I made the mistake of trusting all of that information and got the box home only to find out I couldn't use it and had to return it. I've since learned that they've been promising this software since Macworld in January and have missed at least 2 other committments to ship a Mac client.

They've ended up having to pull nearly all the references to supporting OS X off of their web site because of misrepresentation issues. At this point they've become so shell shocked by the error they made they've essentially gone silent on the topic. In September the mac client was going to ship in week 3, then is was in october, then tech support said no sooner than Mid-November. Bottom line while we're told there is a private beta, NDA's (I'm assuming) would prevent any actual confirmation that it does indeed exist.

While clearly not as arrogant as TiVo's approach not nearly an example of a vendor effectively communicting with their customer base.


----------



## cwoody222

I didn't know all that!

That said, I still get the feeling that Slingbox is TRYING whereas I have fully believed for months that TiVo has no intention whatsoever of ever releasing a Mac product (regardless of what they imply here).


----------



## Larshart

ccoulson said:


> Called Tivo support today and asked the latest status on TTG for Mac. I loved the reponse so much I just had to share it with rest... Her response was "we have been working very hard on Tivo To Go for Mac for over two years now, but Apple is making it very difficult for us becuase they keep updating Mac OS X every few months."


There is no way that all of Apple's incremental bug fix updates could be causing their programmers grief.

I've seen some screenshots of it being demoed at some shows. I wish they would just give it to us NOW and call it a beta! I could deal some crashes and bugs. 

Better yet, why don't they Open Source it. Give it to the community and let all the programmers out in the wild help out.

What was that sound? Did you hear it? I think someone at the MPAA just dropped dead of a heart attack.


----------



## icurnvs

cwoody222 said:


> I didn't know all that!
> 
> That said, I still get the feeling that Slingbox is TRYING whereas I have fully believed for months that TiVo has no intention whatsoever of ever releasing a Mac product (regardless of what they imply here).


If you're so convinced and positive that Tivo is never going to support Macs, then why do you post in this thread almost daily?  Wouldn't that be like beating a dead horse? 
Admit it...there's still some hope left in ya.


----------



## rworne

icurnvs said:


> If you're so convinced and positive that Tivo is never going to support Macs, then why do you post in this thread almost daily?  Wouldn't that be like beating a dead horse?
> Admit it...there's still some hope left in ya.


Actually, it can be explained by this true story:

In Japan, there was a dog named Hachiko who waited for his master to return from work every day at the train station.

One day, his master died. Yet every day after that, the dog waited on the platform for his master to appear - and did so for the next eleven years.

That pretty much sums up TiVo's Mac support and the Mac faithful.


----------



## cwoody222

I want them to prove me wrong. But I don't think they will.

I bought a S3 and am selling my S2 now anyway so TiVoToGo for me is a moot point. Although I still think they should support Macs for all the other users out there.


----------



## Fofer

cwoody222 said:


> I bought a S3 and am selling my S2 now anyway so TiVoToGo for me is a moot point. Although I still think they should support Macs for all the other users out there.


It may be a moot point now... but I suspect you'll be hopping mad (again) when they eventually enable TTG for the Series 3... for Windows users only.


----------



## cwoody222

Nah.

I honestly have no hope for S3 ToGo support due to CableCARD / digital rights issues. I don't blame TiVo for that one, though.


----------



## chessplayer

rworne said:


> Actually, it can be explained by this true story:
> 
> In Japan, there was a dog named Hachiko who waited for his master to return from work every day at the train station.


 Nice analogy. There was a very sad episode of Futurama based on this story. Actually, I feel betrayed by TiVo's deception on this issue, whereas I don't believe that the dog felt betrayed.

How vile it is of TiVo to continue to pretend to be working hard on Mac support, even after the CFO said years ago not to expect Mac support in the forseeable future. It took a lot of nerve for TiVo to deny the CFO's statement, and keep stringing Mac users along.


----------



## davezatz

donsullivan said:


> Bottom line while we're told there is a private beta, NDA's (I'm assuming) would prevent any actual confirmation that it does indeed exist.


Sling gave me a demo on several Macs in their offices a few weeks ago, and I bumped into the crew at DigitalLife last week and they let me play around with the software on a MacBook. It exists, and the public beta will be available very soon - based on everything I've heard direct from Sling execs (not tech support rumors), I'd guess within 2 weeks we'll be able to download it.

Here's a pic I took at the Javits Center last Thursday:









Last but not least... I also chatted with the TiVo booth babe, who happens to be my press contact, at DL and was informed Mac TTG development continues. I couldn't get her to reveal a time frame, but she mentioned there could be an announcement sometime in the near future. Is the near future weeks or months? I'm afraid to speculate...

I'm glad to see cwoody won't be blaming TiVo for no S3 TTG.


----------



## cwoody222

Lemme correct my statement 

IF TiVo has ANY TiVoToGo for S3 and even Windows, I'll be suprised. And won't blame TiVo if it doesn't happen.

But if TiVo has anything for Windows and then doesn't offer equal support for Macs, then the blame WILL lie squarely with TiVo.


----------



## patdaddy

why is it that you can download tivo to go recordings to an IPOD but only via a PC? 
Now that is just wrong. Still waiting....2.5 years and counting.

patdaddy


----------



## Fofer

patdaddy said:


> why is it that you can download tivo to go recordings to an IPOD but only via a PC?


The irony astounds, doesn't it?

And this raises an interesting question. If the hold-up is due to DRM issues and playback on the Mac (and we know it is) then what would the response be if TiVo ultimately announced:

"We've got TTG support for Mac now, but it *only* syncs to a connected iPod. Playback directly on the Mac is not implied/available/supported/etc."

Interesting compromise, and I wonder what the public's response would be. It's better than nothing, no?


----------



## rworne

Fofer said:


> The irony astounds, doesn't it?
> 
> And this raises an interesting question. If the hold-up is due to DRM issues and playback on the Mac (and we know it is) then what would the response be if TiVo ultimately announced:
> 
> "We've got TTG support for Mac now, but it *only* syncs to a connected iPod. Playback directly on the Mac is not implied/available/supported/etc."
> 
> Interesting compromise, and I wonder what the public's response would be. It's better than nothing, no?


Since the TiVo itself cannot transcode *and* neither can the iPod, that leaves the Mac as the transcoding solution.

The big catch point is the intermediate files. They *could* transcode directly from the encrypted tivo video to an iPod format using their own program and skip Quicktime/iTunes - true. Then the only thing you could play on the Mac is the iPod video - with the watermarking and all that crap. TiVo would have control over the whole process from TiVo download to the final iPod video.

All that would be left is people *****ing over the downgrade from what was demoed more than two years ago - and having to pay for it.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> Last but not least... I also chatted with the TiVo booth babe, who happens to be my press contact, at DL and was informed Mac TTG development continues. I couldn't get her to reveal a time frame, but she mentioned there could be an announcement sometime in the near future. Is the near future weeks or months? I'm afraid to speculate...


wow, still the tantalizing but vague info from TiVo. Wonder if the Mac developer at TiVo has any hair left


----------



## ccoulson

Fofer said:


> The irony astounds, doesn't it?
> 
> And this raises an interesting question. If the hold-up is due to DRM issues and playback on the Mac (and we know it is) then what would the response be if TiVo ultimately announced:
> 
> "We've got TTG support for Mac now, but it *only* syncs to a connected iPod. Playback directly on the Mac is not implied/available/supported/etc."
> 
> Interesting compromise, and I wonder what the public's response would be. It's better than nothing, no?


Doesn't help me - I want to watch TTG on a Mac laptop...


----------



## Fofer

ccoulson said:


> Doesn't help me - I want to watch TTG on a Mac laptop...


And I want a pony.

The point is, TiVo's dropped the ball for Mac users. And yet, I'd go so far as to say, being able to easily watch my TiVo content on an iPod would be better than nothing.


----------



## pdxkevin

I wrote an angry email the other night, and I actually received a response from the VP of Product Marketing for TiVo's retail products. I'm actually very surprised. I'll share what he had to say:

*Dear Mr. ,

My name is Jim Denney, I am in Vice President of Product Marketing for TiVo's retail products. Tom Rogers forwarded your message to me. I wanted to thank you for your email and apologize for the delay in TiVoToGo for the Mac. I am sorry that you feel we have not paid attention to the Mac community. That is certainly not our intention. We are aware of our subscriber's desire to get TiVoToGo on the Mac. Believe it or not, we are actively working on the project and have been for the past year in various forms. Unfortunately, developing on the Mac platform has been a little more difficult because of its closed nature. We are working through the issues we have encountered. They are not simple to solve given the needs that we balance in TiVoToGo. We don't have a release date for the feature yet.

We have gotten ourselves in trouble in the past when we estimated it would be out by mid year this year, we obviously missed that date. In the interest of setting the right expectations this time we want to wait until the feature is actually ready. We are not ready to make that announcement yet. That is why our customer care representatives have been instructed to give the answer they gave you.

We can let you know when the feature is ready for launch. We are listening to you. Until it is ready, we appreciate your patience.

Jim

Jim Denney *

I responded by suggesting that TiVo needs to work on communication; they need to do much better job of keeping us updated regardless of the news.


----------



## chessplayer

At least he replied, but how is it different than what we're used to:

TiVo: We're working hard.
Months pass...
Mac users: Any update?
TiVo: We're happy to say it will be available around...
Months and deadlines pass...
Mac users: Any update?
TiVo: It's hard work, but have no fear: we're still working hard.
Months pass...

Longwinded reassurances that they're working hard have very little credibility at this point.

By the way, does "have been for the past year" mean even TiVo admits they weren't seriously working on it in early '05?


----------



## rworne

chessplayer said:


> By the way, does "have been for the past year" mean even TiVo admits they weren't seriously working on it in early '05?


Naw, I'm pretty sure he meant since TivoPony's announcement.


----------



## errandwolfe

I wouldn't be all that impressed. Two things of note in this e-mail that are a big deal...



pdxkevin said:


> Believe it or not, we are actively working on the project and have been for the past year _in various forms_. Unfortunately, developing on the Mac platform has been a little more difficult because of its closed nature.


1. "In various forms". Seems to me you are either working on it or you are not. My interpretation on it is sometimes they have 20 highly skilled programmers working on it and sometimes (most of the time) they have 1 retarded monkey with torrets syndrome locked in a basement with a copy of TTG for Mac and a Beige G3 tower doing all the work.

2. Developing on a Mac is hard because it is a closed system? Give me a freakin break, it is a MUCH more open system then Windows. Anyone ever hear of Darwin? You can get most of the non-GUI code of the OS for free, it is open source!


----------



## davezatz

While it's too bad Mac TTG isn't here, I do appreciate Mr. Denney's frank reply. Sling Media isn't a direct competitor, but their public beta of the Mac Slingplayer should be available in the next few days. They're late too, but they've done it quicker than TiVo including apparently building a Mac WMV decoder.

I think the lesson for both these companies is don't announce release dates for new platforms as there's bound to be issues you didn't anticipate. Also I think they've learned they need to take the Mac community a bit more seriously, it may be small but it's a vocal group with money to spend on technology.


----------



## cwoody222

pdxkevin said:


> I wrote an angry email the other night, and I actually received a response from the VP of Product Marketing for TiVo's retail products. I'm actually very surprised. I'll share what he had to say:
> 
> *Dear Mr. ,
> 
> My name is Jim Denney, I am in Vice President of Product Marketing for TiVo's retail products. Tom Rogers forwarded your message to me. I wanted to thank you for your email and apologize for the delay in TiVoToGo for the Mac. I am sorry that you feel we have not paid attention to the Mac community. That is certainly not our intention. We are aware of our subscriber's desire to get TiVoToGo on the Mac. Believe it or not, we are actively working on the project and have been for the past year in various forms. Unfortunately, developing on the Mac platform has been a little more difficult because of its closed nature. We are working through the issues we have encountered. They are not simple to solve given the needs that we balance in TiVoToGo. We don't have a release date for the feature yet.
> 
> We have gotten ourselves in trouble in the past when we estimated it would be out by mid year this year, we obviously missed that date. In the interest of setting the right expectations this time we want to wait until the feature is actually ready. We are not ready to make that announcement yet. That is why our customer care representatives have been instructed to give the answer they gave you.
> 
> We can let you know when the feature is ready for launch. We are listening to you. Until it is ready, we appreciate your patience.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Jim Denney *
> 
> I responded by suggesting that TiVo needs to work on communication; they need to do much better job of keeping us updated regardless of the news.


So basically nothing has changed.

In essense:

1) We're working on it - really! Believe us! We have been for awhile. We swear.

2) Building software for a Mac is hard. Wah! We didn't realize it would be this hard. 

3) We thought it would be easier so we made a date. We missed it. By a lot. And over and over again. So now so you don't get your hopes up we're not going to give any timeframe, not even a vague one.

4) We do love the Mac community. Really! Please don't hate on us!


----------



## Puppy76

Hey, Mac support for Tivo 2 Go on a Series 3 and I'll still bite. 

Not that I'm holding my breath for either.


----------



## wdave

Fofer said:


> http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/movie_tv/nowplayingtivowidget.html


Anyone know if this widget works with the S3?


----------



## cwoody222

Nope


----------



## wdave

Nope you don't know, or nope it doesn't work?


----------



## derekcbart

No, it doesn't work. You need the Media Access Key from the TiVo and the S3 doesn't have one yet.


----------



## murrays

Puppy76 said:


> Hey, Mac support for Tivo 2 Go on a Series 3 and I'll still bite.
> 
> Not that I'm holding my breath for either.


If they have Mac Tivo 2 Go before the "free" year of subscription runs out on my S2, I'll be happy.

-murray


----------



## Fofer

murrays said:


> If they have Mac Tivo 2 Go before the "free" year of subscription runs out on my S2, I'll be happy.
> 
> -murray


When does that year expire? Jus' curious.


----------



## murrays

Fofer said:


> When does that year expire? Jus' curious.


Well, since I haven't purchased the S3 yet, the clock hasn't started yet 

A bit more prodding with my wife and I'll probably get the S3 next month :up:

-murray


----------



## ZeoTiVo

errandwolfe said:


> I wouldn't be all that impressed. Two things of note in this e-mail that are a big deal...
> 
> 1. "In various forms". Seems to me you are either working on it or you are not. My interpretation on it is sometimes they have 20 highly skilled programmers working on it and sometimes (most of the time) they have 1 retarded monkey with torrets syndrome locked in a basement with a copy of TTG for Mac and a Beige G3 tower doing all the work.


 I think it means they have tried to approach the problem of providing enough copy protection on the Mac TTG side from various approaches. Basically on the Windows version you have to explicitly break the DMCA by doing something outside of the normal software. I speculate the holdup on Mac TTG is getting to the same result of making sure it is a specific DMCA violation if you get rid of TTG encryption. heck they might have had 3 lawyers trying to write a TOS that would cover it as one of the approaches.


> 2. Developing on a Mac is hard because it is a closed system? Give me a freakin break, it is a MUCH more open system then Windows. Anyone ever hear of Darwin? You can get most of the non-GUI code of the OS for free, it is open source!


 they did not mean open source or not. I think they meant how to make sure things can not happen such as simply copying the mpeg stream without touching the encryption during playback. Most likely hard to keep things like that from happening on a Mac that is not designed around such a concept.


----------



## gonzotek

cwoody222 said:


> 4) We do love the Mac community. Really! Please don't hate on us!


/nitpick: The Denney email didn't say anything about loving the Mac community.


----------



## cwoody222

I was referring to:

"I am sorry that you feel we have not paid attention to the Mac community. That is certainly not our intention."


----------



## TydalForce

A friend of mine just bought his first TiVo. He's a Mac user too. 

The world of Mac users is expanding. Bigger market every day. And we do love our TiVos. Lets hope they surprise us soon


----------



## Puppy76

They seem like such complimentary products too. Especially ironic since 1) They support the iPod. 2) They use Apple technology for their networking stuff, and 3) They're using a Unix-like OS.


----------



## 2farrell

Well here we are in what could be termed late 2006 and still no signs of TTG for Macs. 
They blame Apple and everyone else for the hold ups but themselves. 
We haven't seen any proof (pointers to filings, documentation or otherwise) so how are we to now believe TiVo is telling us the truth. 
Track record shows they just dangle the Carrot, but we can no longer see the Carrot. 
Until someone comes on this forum and shows any Beta pictures on a Mac or someone from TiVo comes on this Forum with a release date (and sorry, early, mid, late some year or other don't cut it anymore), I'll just believe TTG on the Mac is dead and TiVo are liers to try and convince us otherwise.


----------



## Fofer

2farrell said:


> Until someone comes on this forum and shows any Beta pictures on a Mac


http://community.livejournal.com/tivolovers/253645.html


----------



## cwoody222

How 'bout some RECENT pictures!

I've looked at those a ton of times and I just realized... isn't it weird that NONE of them show playback?


----------



## gonzotek

cwoody222 said:


> How 'bout some RECENT pictures!
> 
> I've looked at those a ton of times and I just realized... isn't it weird that NONE of them show playback?


There's a window showing a "Playhouse Disney" logo in the background of some of them, also a program info "Little_Einsteins_Farmer_Annie_DISNP_..." that appears to be the active playlist item in one. They also show the files as plain mpegs, not .tivo files(ergo they had mpeg2 playback working months ago). In any event, static photographs of playing video are boring. I would have preferred seeing the program directory, config panes, and/or preference files, vs. seeing a picture of a disney show.


----------



## davezatz

I imagine the shipping version will playback differently than the one shown at CES. I assume they had unencrypted MPEG-2 files on the drive to be played back via the shown VLC (since QT is notoriously bad with MPEG2). 

When Denney said "We are working through the issues we have encountered. They are not simple to solve given the needs that we balance in TiVoToGo." I assume the needs he is referring to are keeping the file encrypted while on the Mac (as it is on the PC) to protect the content owners (and/or to protect themselves from the content owners). They probably want to build an engine that decrypts the file on the fly (leaving the file itself locked down) during playback as they do on Windows. Then it'll be up to us to figure out how to bypass it...


----------



## tonyf3

davezatz said:


> I imagine the shipping version will playback differently than the one shown at CES. I assume they had unencrypted MPEG-2 files on the drive to be played back via the shown VLC (since QT is notoriously bad with MPEG2).
> 
> When Denney said "We are working through the issues we have encountered. They are not simple to solve given the needs that we balance in TiVoToGo." I assume the needs he is referring to are keeping the file encrypted while on the Mac (as it is on the PC) to protect the content owners (and/or to protect themselves from the content owners). They probably want to build an engine that decrypts the file on the fly (leaving the file itself locked down) during playback as they do on Windows. Then it'll be up to us to figure out how to bypass it...


There is something about using the words "Shipping Version" and "TiVo ToGo Mac" after 2 years that just feels like a bad tease.


----------



## Quevar

> ZeoTiVo wrote: "I think they meant how to make sure things can not happen such as simply copying the mpeg stream without touching the encryption during playback. Most likely hard to keep things like that from happening on a Mac that is not designed around such a concept.


You mean like you can on a Windows machine with the Direct Show filters. There are methods posted all over the internet about how to strip the DRM off the .tivo files. The only caveat is that you have to be on a Windows machine to do it, presumably because the Tivo software actually does the decrypting and then the file is saved with no DRM left.


----------



## Fofer

davezatz said:


> I imagine the shipping version will playback differently than the one shown at CES. I assume they had unencrypted MPEG-2 files on the drive to be played back via the shown VLC* (since QT is notoriously bad with MPEG2).*


How so? The files I grab off my hacked DTiVo's play perfectly fine in Quicktime Player with the MPEG2 plugin. No glitches whatsoever.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Quevar said:


> You mean like you can on a Windows machine with the Direct Show filters. There are methods posted all over the internet about how to strip the DRM off the .tivo files. The only caveat is that you have to be on a Windows machine to do it, presumably because the Tivo software actually does the decrypting and then the file is saved with no DRM left.


ah - but all of that is specifically doing something extra to bypass the encryption. The simple programs out there for .tivo files on wondows actually subclass a directshow filter class to pull the mpeg through vs the typical push the mpeg to a player the filter does normally. The other method essentially uses commercial software to do the same thing but it is a multistep process that is not the normal use.

This keeps TiVo or Microsoft off the hook and anyone who starts to do damage by sharing out too much stuff or whatever can be forced to stop under DMCA provisions so the copyright holder has a simple method for enforcement.

My understanding is that a Mac was designed to be easy to work with first, so it is possible that by doing standard things you can save the .TiVo file to an unencrypted mpeg file. TiVo has to find a way around that to feel safe from copyright holders.


----------



## davezatz

Fofer said:


> How so? The files I grab off my hacked DTiVo's play perfectly fine in Quicktime Player with the MPEG2 plugin. No glitches whatsoever.


Aside fromt he extra cost, it doesn't handle all MPEG-2. It's been talked about here on the forum and the web at large...

From Apple's FAQ:
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/mpeg2/faq.html

Can transport streams be played?
The MPEG-2 specification defines two forms of data streams, program streams and transport streams. Each is optimized for a different set of applications and environments. The QuickTime MPEG-2 Playback Component will play program streams, which combine audio and video streams that share a common timeline and are suited for applications with software processing. Playback of transport streams, which combine audio and video with independent time bases, is not supported.

Can the QuickTime MPEG-2 Playback Component play back AC3 audio?
No, MPEG-2 files containing AC3 audio cannot be played back with the QuickTime MPEG-2 Playback Component.

Can I use the MPEG-2 Playback Component to de-multiplex (i.e., de-mux) multiplexed streams?
While multiplexed streams can be played back with the QuickTime MPEG-2 Playback Component, de-multiplexing of these streams is not supported.


----------



## Puppy76

Apple needs to seriously update that. It's bad enough they charge for it. Seems like it could just use the same license as the DVD player is using (seems like it should be the same software too...)


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Fofer said:


> How so? The files I grab off my hacked DTiVo's play perfectly fine in Quicktime Player with the MPEG2 plugin. No glitches whatsoever.


It's a PITA to code for, because its different than everything else in QuickTime (when there's documentation for it at all, that is.)

Apple's own applications (the iLife suite, anyway) have very poor support for MPEG2, at least in part because of this.


----------



## ccoulson

Dual Tuner Mac DVR solution from Miglia:

http://www.macnn.com/articles/06/10/26/miglia.debuts.tvduo/


----------



## gonzotek

ccoulson said:


> Dual Tuner Mac DVR solution from Miglia:
> 
> http://www.macnn.com/articles/06/10/26/miglia.debuts.tvduo/


From the linked article:


> TVDuo is compatible with the DVT-T standard, and works in most European and Asian countries, according to Miglia.


It won't work in the US.


----------



## davezatz

gonzotek said:


> From the linked article:It won't work in the US.


details, details


----------



## 2farrell

Fofer said:


> http://community.livejournal.com/tivolovers/253645.html


That's the Pre-Alpha Version shown at CES earlier this year when we was told mid-2006 (if you read this link).
If it's in Beta now shouldn't someone from TiVo who frequent this forum (or not so frequent lately apparently) speak up and give us hope not all is lost?
It has to be at Beta 3 by now?


----------



## cwoody222

Who said it's in Beta now?


----------



## Puppy76

I think the next made up release date is entering alpha right now. The beta for the next made up release date could be in as little as 6 months!


----------



## 2farrell

cwoody222 said:


> Who said it's in Beta now?


It was more of a question than an actual statement.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Any other company writing Software (barring Microsoft  ) would have a pre-Alpha at least to the first Beta by now.....wouldn't they?
I would have thought TiVo could at least give us a rough road map.
At least then we would have something to go on as their silence is pretty much admitting nothing is happening.


----------



## bitchysix

I'm kinda floored that there is no alternatives for us Mac users. I mean, I pay the same as a PC Tivo subscriber, yet do not receive the same service. That blows.


----------



## davezatz

*****ysix said:


> I'm kinda floored that there is no alternatives for us Mac users. I mean, I pay the same as a PC Tivo subscriber, yet do not receive the same service. That blows.


And what about TiVoToGo on my Ubuntu desktop? It's just not right!  Seriously, it's too bad TiVo didn't make this a priority and missed a publicly announced target. When all's said and done, I bet it will be over 2 years from the initial TTG launch (1/05) before we see Mac support.


----------



## SullyND

davezatz said:


> And what about TiVoToGo on my Ubuntu desktop? It's just not right!


I want a DOS version for my 8086.


----------



## cwoody222

Slingbox now supports Mac

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-10/mac-slingplayer-is-here/

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/soft...cially-released-start-your-slingin-211244.php

TiVo? Still doesn't. But - they're working hard!!!


----------



## rworne

davezatz said:


> And what about TiVoToGo on my Ubuntu desktop? It's just not right!  Seriously, it's too bad TiVo didn't make this a priority and missed a publicly announced target. When all's said and done, I bet it will be over 2 years from the initial TTG launch (1/05) before we see Mac support.


No, the really sad part is that TTG came (1/2005) and went (Tivo Series 3) and Mac users never got support for it!


----------



## schalliol

It should come to S3, but I've still got S2 and I would be very happy to have a relase for it!


----------



## southerndoc

Maybe we can get the attention of the TiVo staff if everyone on here sends the CEO a letter and/or email every weekday until TiVo-to-Go for Mac is released.

I'm sure that will give them incentive to push the project ahead. I think I'm going to start writing a letter and sending it every weekday. Emails are too easy to delete.


----------



## 2farrell

geekmedic said:


> Maybe we can get the attention of the TiVo staff if everyone on here sends the CEO a letter and/or email every weekday until TiVo-to-Go for Mac is released.
> 
> I'm sure that will give them incentive to push the project ahead. I think I'm going to start writing a letter and sending it every weekday. Emails are too easy to delete.


And letters are too easy to put in the shredder.
I'd rather see some sort of petition or mass signed letter about how disgruntled TiVo owning Mac Users are with the Company.
The fact that this thread is longer (in time and length) than pretty much any other in the Forum has to mean we want this. It's time for TiVo to wake up and smell the flowers.


----------



## cwoody222

Nothing we do will matter. They know how disgruntled we are. They know how many of us there are.

They. Simply. Don't. Care.


----------



## 2farrell

cwoody222 said:


> Nothing we do will matter. They know how disgruntled we are. They know how many of us there are.
> 
> They. Simply. Don't. Care.


Very Sad


----------



## Fofer

2farrell said:


> And letters are too easy to put in the shredder.
> I'd rather see some sort of petition or mass signed letter about how disgruntled TiVo owning Mac Users are with the Company.


A "petition?" A "mass signed letter?"

Surely you jest.


----------



## shelbel

Individual messages actually carry more of a punch IMO than petitions, 'cause it takes more effort and motivation for each person to generate the message (paper, e-mail or otherwise). It indicates more conviction than a person seeing that someone has created a petition and saying "yeah, I could sign that."

That said, I think it's all moot. A lot of us have written/phoned TiVo to voice our frustration (some of us many, many times), and this thread has soldiered along. They know we're ticked off, and they know how many of us there are. That means that they know we're a small group, relative to the whole (sad, but true), and that most of us have kept the TiVo service despite our grumblings. Short of persuading the rest of TiVo subscriberdom to switch to Macs and _then_ mobilizing them all to threaten to abandon TiVo unless TiVo provides a workable TTG, there's not much we can do, really.


----------



## Quevar

TiVo isn't going to get any more money from me until they do release TTG on the Mac. I have a lifetime. If I had a subscription, I'd drop as soon as the commitment was over. I bought mine before any of this was ever released, so it didn't affect my decision.

Now, I don't even talk to people about TiVo anymore. If people ask, I tell them it's not worth it and that they can get most of the same features from their cable companies DVR for cheaper or get a MythTV box. Or I just tell them to buy their shows from iTunes and it turns out that it's cheaper than buying cable and a TiVo (see my past post). It's going to be more of a problem when the iTV comes out. TiVo is loosing a loyal fan base and the word of mouth spreading is going to hurt them....


----------



## 2farrell

Fofer said:


> A "petition?" A "mass signed letter?"
> 
> Surely you jest.


No, just peeved like everyone else here so never mind.
I wonder if this thread will make it to 2000 postings before TTG for Mac is released?


----------



## southerndoc

2farrell said:


> I wonder if this thread will make it to 2000 postings before TTG for Mac is released?


I'm sure it will.


----------



## FreedMegabyte

Scuttlebutt to follow-
The Mac mini was proposed to be Apples answer to its users interface to cable and broad cast TV. Preprograming recording, scheduling, internet access, lan and remote transfers and downloads. Everything TiVo has promised us. Has anyone else heard of this?


----------



## donsullivan

FreedMegabyte said:


> Scuttlebutt to follow-
> The Mac mini was proposed to be Apples answer to its users interface to cable and broad cast TV. Preprograming recording, scheduling, internet access, lan and remote transfers and downloads. Everything TiVo has promised us. Has anyone else heard of this?


I'm not sure that Apple ever suggested that's what it was for, but many speculated it had good potential for that. I've actually got one that I'm using as a media PC myself with a couple of other software packages added to get close to TiVo and add a few other features it doesn't.

It has an Elgato EyeTV500 which gives me OTA HD content to display on the HD display it's connected to. The latest version of that software includes a Front Row style interface that allows you to schedule a recording, play it back later and watch in real-time using the Apple Remote. It doesn't have features like Season Pass and the like but it's a start.

I now use a product called Media Center from Equinux in partnership with Front Row for nearly everything else. It can do most all of what FR can do except iTunes store content plus a little more. It has an interesting option for DVD's that allows you to copy the entire content of the DVD into a folder on the HD and then nagivate to it and get full function including menus and all of the DVD. I've copied a half dozen or so up there and it's a great way to just navigate to a movie and watch the full DVD experience. It also does IP stream from sites like YouTube and GoogleMovies in addition to access Flickr photo libraries.

Now if you add FR for access to protected content I can watch all of the shows and movies I've purchased from the iTunes store as well as listen to my music and look at the photos in my library on the TV.

I can easy dump the TV content from the EyeTV out to put it on a DVD, store it on my laptop to carry it with me when I travel, or dump it to iTunes to synch with my iPod.

Bottom line, it's not a complete TiVo experience but it's actually quite good and adds many functions this Mac user couldn't get from his TiVo (don't have my Series 2 any more). Certainly not a solution for everyone since it uses 3 different tools that you have to switch around between, but it gives me nearly all I'm looking for and most of it via the Apple Remote when I'm laying in the bed.


----------



## tonyf3

shelbel said:


> "Short of persuading the rest of TiVo subscriberdom to switch to Macs and _then_ mobilizing them all to threaten to abandon TiVo unless TiVo provides a workable TTG"


I like this idea!
However, it's looking more likely that Apple Software and Hardware will eventually eclipse TiVo. It may take awhile, maybe 2 years. Oh, wait..how long have we been waiting for this? January should be interesting for TiVo and Apple. 
That's Early 2007! for the Mid 2006 folks at TiVo headquarters.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Hey, its November.


----------



## FreedMegabyte

donsullivan said:


> I'm not sure that Apple ever suggested that's what it was for, but many speculated it had good potential for that. I've actually got one that I'm using as a media PC myself with a couple of other software packages added to get close to TiVo and add a few other features it doesn't.


Thanks donsullivan! Kewl! Price wise, it sure is in the Humax ballpark. I saw this in a pod cast last year, Jobs was pictured standing next to a Mini and the castor was proclaiming he, (Jobs), was considering this. It will be interesting to see if that Apple ripens.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

shelbel said:


> A lot of us have written/phoned TiVo to voice our frustration (some of us many, many times), and this thread has soldiered along. They know we're ticked off, and they know how many of us there are. That means that they know we're a small group, relative to the whole (sad, but true), and that most of us have kept the TiVo service despite our grumblings.


I think TiVo does indeed know the demand for TTG on Mac and are doing what they can to get around whatever problems they encountered. Does anyone think TiVo does NOT want to give you TTG on Mac? I doubt a petition would tell them anything new.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Quevar said:


> Now, I don't even talk to people about TiVo anymore. If people ask, I tell them it's not worth it and that they can get most of the same features from their cable companies DVR for cheaper or get a MythTV box.


 so if they have Windows then a cable company DVR is going to let them transfer shows or play their music or photos from any PC? sounds like bad advice to me. MythTv would certainly give them lots of flexibility as long as they are comfortable dealing with supporting it, if not again they do not have the whole picture



> Or I just tell them to buy their shows from iTunes and it turns out that it's cheaper than buying cable and a TiVo (see my past post). It's going to be more of a problem when the iTV comes out. TiVo is loosing a loyal fan base and the word of mouth spreading is going to hurt them....


Apple is certainly making huge forays into download content and some major TV shows are on it. also the networks are starting to get hip to offering free downloads the next day. I do not think Apple will ever be much into offering a DVR though - why should they worry about the hardware and such when they have such a huge start on video download that does not need hardware to record it?


----------



## chessplayer

I got an eyeTV Hybrid a few days ago but the picture quality was terrible. Possibly the unit I had was defective, but I returned it and got a Miglia TVMax instead, and I'm extremely happy with it.

I also got a 500 GB NewerTech miniStack, so now I have a very pleasing combination of devices to go with my Mac Mini, matching in form and making a beautiful little tower.

It's been great being able to choose shows, organized in playlists, using my bluetooth mouse. Being able to edit out commercials or just extract clips. Being able to easily convert shows into various formats, free of DRM. Being able to share shows easily, archive them, and have complete integration with my Mac. Using the mouse to control playback, such as being able to click to immediately skip to any part of a show. And no monthly fee!

On the downside, some nice TiVo features like season passes and wishlists are not there, the TVMax can't control a cable box (I have analog cable though), and no HDTV support.

I cancelled service on 2 of my 3 TiVos in protest of the TiVoToGo deceptions, and am glad to finally have a viable alternative which, though not perfect, has many advantages of its own.


----------



## southerndoc

http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/2web519.htm

They now have an option for TiVo-to-Go for Mac. I listed it as my #1, #2, and #3 options I want to see!


----------



## shelbel

> They now have an option for TiVo-to-Go for Mac.


...which is so incredibly depressing. If they've _just added_ it to the list of options we'd like to see in the future, that means that it's not anywhere near release stage.


----------



## SullyND

shelbel said:


> ...which is so incredibly depressing. If they've _just added_ it to the list of options we'd like to see in the future, that means that it's not anywhere near release stage.


Or they got tired of hearing it, and clicking that option automagically sends it to the bit-bucket


----------



## southerndoc

Tivo "have" an option for TiVo-to-Go for Mac? Good grief. To think I actually have a doctorate!


----------



## ljcaswell

Yesterday, I bought my first HDTV.

Today, I visited my local Time Warner cable store and picked up my FREE upgrade to an HD compatible cable box, with DVR service (HD DVR no less), and will pay $6.99/month for the priviledge of using it.

Tomorrow, I am cancelling my Tivo service.

Sure, I won't get all those nice Tivo services like Suggestions (it never suggested anything I was interested in), or those "awesome" home media features (used them once to see what they were all about, then never used them again), but now I can record in high def...and hey presto, I can actually watch one channel and record another!!

Not for one second was I tempted to drop $800 (wow) on a Series 3, and pay $13/month for a TV Guide...let alone their new and improved rates. (My decision was made before they announced the rate increase.)

And, the icing on the cake...I've been waiting, patiently, for the ability to move shows from my DVR to my Mac...and been stiffed for over a year. I'll work something out with an EyeTV, or iTV, or whatever else comes along in the next few years. Tivo won't see one more $$ out of me.

How can Tivo treat their customers with such disdain and expect to retain them?

Tivo...you've simply got it wrong. You remind me of the Transit system in Toronto that kept seeing ridership decrease, so they increased their fares to increase revenue, only to wonder why ridership decreased even more, so they increased their fares again...etc...etc.

Goodbye.

PS - if anyone wants a gently used Series 2...I'm listing it on E-Bay cheap.


----------



## southerndoc

ljcaswell said:


> Yesterday, I bought my first HDTV.
> 
> Today, I visited my local Time Warner cable store and picked up my FREE upgrade to an HD compatible cable box, with DVR service (HD DVR no less), and will pay $6.99/month for the priviledge of using it.
> 
> Tomorrow, I am cancelling my Tivo service.
> 
> Sure, I won't get all those nice Tivo services like Suggestions (it never suggested anything I was interested in), or those "awesome" home media features (used them once to see what they were all about, then never used them again), but now I can record in high def...and hey presto, I can actually watch one channel and record another!!
> 
> Not for one second was I tempted to drop $800 (wow) on a Series 3, and pay $13/month for a TV Guide...let alone their new and improved rates. (My decision was made before they announced the rate increase.)
> 
> And, the icing on the cake...I've been waiting, patiently, for the ability to move shows from my DVR to my Mac...and been stiffed for over a year. I'll work something out with an EyeTV, or iTV, or whatever else comes along in the next few years. Tivo won't see one more $$ out of me.
> 
> How can Tivo treat their customers with such disdain and expect to retain them?
> 
> Tivo...you've simply got it wrong. You remind me of the Transit system in Toronto that kept seeing ridership decrease, so they increased their fares to increase revenue, only to wonder why ridership decreased even more, so they increased their fares again...etc...etc.
> 
> Goodbye.
> 
> PS - if anyone wants a gently used Series 2...I'm listing it on E-Bay cheap.


 You should voice your opinions to Tom Rogers, TiVo's CEO.


----------



## cwoody222

While not having Mac TiVo To Go is bad and their new pricing is expensive, don't for a second think that your TW DVR will be as good as a Series3. I have one with Lifetime and it's awesome. I don't know what DVR you get from your cable company but ours is the SA8300 and it's a pure POS!


----------



## ccoulson

...Not for one second was I tempted to drop $800 (wow) on a Series 3, and pay $13/month for a TV Guide...let alone their new and improved rates. (My decision was made before they announced the rate increase.)...​
Geekmedic- You're also saving an additional $7.80 a month... Didn't you just recently say you were going to write a letter to Tivo every workday until they made some progress on TTG?


----------



## southerndoc

ccoulson said:


> Geekmedic- You're also saving an additional $7.80 a month... Didn't you just recently say you were going to write a letter to Tivo every workday until they made some progress on TTG?


Yea, haven't started it yet. I work too much.


----------



## macrob

5 Days without a post...

Mac users must be jumping ship.

While not devistating to Tivo, it's still gotta sting.


----------



## cwoody222

They. Don't. Care.


----------



## 2farrell

macrob said:


> 5 Days without a post...
> 
> Mac users must be jumping ship.
> 
> While not devastating to Tivo, it's still gotta sting.


What's the point? It's like talking to a brick wall now.
Nothing will ever happen.
Tivo have got better things to do, like put larger ads in our faces


----------



## Fofer

2farrell said:


> Tivo have got better things to do, like put larger ads in our faces


And charge $800 for a Series 3. And raise the monthly subscription fee.


----------



## timg

Don't forget, they are hard at work making my Series 2 even slower to respond...


----------



## EwanG

It's not just the Mac users. I bought a Series 2 80 hour unit (my second) this spring with a lifetime, and fully intended to buy another Tivo each year for the next several years until we had a Tivo at every TV. Then Tivo stopped offering lifetime. Then they announced the price for the Series 3. Then it turned out the Series 3 doesn't support TTG and GoBack which are the main reasons I wanted some more Tivos in the first place.

So, I will not be buying another Tivo when I get a tax return this year. At the moment I'm trying to decide between a MythTV setup, an XBOX 360 Media Center setup, or an iTV.

Of course, I'm sure I'm not the audience that Tivo wants to sell to anyway. But I have to wonder what that audience is if I look at all these policies. Seems like they only want to sell high end units with a decent markup to folks who want a premium experience and are willing to pay for it. That may be the right audience considering the competition at the middle and low ends of the market now. But I doubt that's enough volume to justify a company the size of Tivo.

Oh well, FWIW and all that...


----------



## animalism2

Here's a theory that cuts Tivo a little slack. The fact that this is taking so long AND there are some tantalizing statements form Tivo to hang in there makes me think that they're planning something jointly with Apple - and the timing is going to coincide with the release of Apple's iTV. Even if they're not planning anything major together, I still think the timing of TTG or mac will coincide with the iTV because of some programming/DRM related issues that Apple is lording over Tivo. That's the theory I'm sticking with for now.


----------



## Puppy76

I don't believe that for a second. People keep saying "they're delaying it for Apple announcement X!!!" and it's just not true. It would be cool, but it's not happening.

Tivo dosen't have it out because they don't care about their customers. They don't have tivo2go on S3 because they don't care about their customers. With these price hikes and removing of features, stand alone Tivos are dead anyway. There's no way they can compete with Microsoft OR the cable companies.


----------



## southerndoc

Puppy76 said:


> Tivo dosen't have it out because they don't care about their customers. They don't have tivo2go on S3 because they don't care about their customers. With these price hikes and removing of features, stand alone Tivos are dead anyway. There's no way they can compete with Microsoft OR the cable companies.


That's not true. I'm sure TiVo does care about us Macintosh users. In case you haven't noticed, TiVo isn't a profitable company yet. It costs a tremendous amount of money to develop software for a completely different platform. Ideally, TiVo would have Windows, OS X, and Linux versions of TiVo-to-Go. It's just not feasible when you have a limited budget and limited programming staff.

I'm sure in due time we will have a Mac version of TiVo-to-Go. Like you, I am rather impatient awaiting it. Hopefully, it will come in due time, and I truly believe it will.


----------



## blips

animalism2 said:


> Here's a theory that cuts Tivo a little slack. The fact that this is taking so long AND there are some tantalizing statements form Tivo to hang in there makes me think that they're planning something jointly with Apple - and the timing is going to coincide with the release of Apple's iTV. Even if they're not planning anything major together, I still think the timing of TTG or mac will coincide with the iTV because of some programming/DRM related issues that Apple is lording over Tivo. That's the theory I'm sticking with for now.


I don't buy this theory. Apple has absolutely no incentive to work with Tivo. Look at the iPod. It is a closed platform that Apple will not let anyone in and they control the market. I believe they want to control the living room themselves and they don't need Tivo to do it. How many iTV's (or whatever Apple is going to call it) do you think Apple will sell the first year? Then by year two. Compare that to how many SA Tivo users there are. My theory is Apple's iTV user base will be at least the size of Tivo's SA user base in two years and continue to grow at a rate after that, that Tivo will not be able to touch. Apple has no use for Tivo, unless they want to buy them out.


----------



## animalism2

To clarify - I was envisioning a significant change in the DRM and Quicktime technology that Tivo must wait for. From Apple's end, those changes aren't going to be released until the iTV is released because that's the reason that Apple is making those changes. So Tivo's hands are tied until Apple allows this. Put another way, TTG for Mac and iTV would both be dependent on the same underlying programming and therefore must be released within close proximity to one another.


----------



## Fofer

Soooo very doubtful. Apple isn't working with TiVo on the iTV. No way, no how. They're doing their own thing, as elegantly and unencumbered by others as possible. As always.


----------



## animalism2

OK - I'm not making myself clear here - i apologize. I didn't say they're working together on the iTV. I'm saying that the iTV release will require some significant updates to Quicktime and DRM. Meanwhile, TTG for Mac is also dependent on that programming so they have to wait until Apple will release those quicktime updates. Don't let my "planning something jointly with Apple" line confuse you. I just meant they're planning the release of their respective products jointly because TTG is dependent on Quicktime updates.


----------



## Fofer

Now, now. TTG has been horrifically delayed, for almost 2 years already. Long, long before the iTV was even "teased" to the world at the last SteveNote! There's just no fathomable way the "iTV" can be used as the excuse here.

Sure, it may prompt TiVo to get off their ass and make something happen -- or it may cause them to just throw in the towel and admit their ineptitude in making something happen for Mac users -- but they are not silently strategizing with Apple for some joint iTV/TiVo project where TiVoToGo downloads suddenly start working on our desktops and our iPods.


----------



## sobenski

Ugh... This was exactly my worst fear when I saw today's announcement. Hellllooo??? One of the main reason people buy Macs is so they can easily edit their home movies! Duh! 

I've been waiting for TTG for Mac for *years* now, and I think this has to be a sign that they Tivo is not serious about developing it. Even Microsoft's xBox 360 now has better Macintosh support! (Music photos, etc. are easier and faster to view, look better and are less buggy)


----------



## animalism2

aah - but the timing doesn't have to coincide with an iTV teaser, it just has to be dependent on Apple letting them in on the DRM, which keeps changing every iTunes release, of course. JHymn can't track it down anymore. So irrespective of any public announcement of iTV, Apple could still have been controlling the DRM required for a Mac/Quicktime TTG. The REASON they were controlling it so tightly earlier was an impending iTunes video store, and now it's iTV. Of course that makes it sound likely that Apple will NEVER let Tivo use Quicktime for TTG. But, the fact that Tivo says "hang in there" makes me believe it's just a matter of timing/alignment. And this theory is consistent with those observations.

We shall see in early 2007, which is my drop-dead date for "hanging in there". You have valid doubts, but I still like the theory.


----------



## Lon

animalism2, the trouble I have with your arguments is that there is absolutely no requirement that TiVo use Apple's DRM on Macs. Windows users can move videos to their iPods -- no Apple DRM. Saying that Apple's changing DRM is the likely culprit is a straw-man argument.


----------



## Fofer

animalism2 said:


> Of course that makes it sound likely that Apple will NEVER let Tivo use Quicktime for TTG.


It's not about letting TiVo "use Quicktime for TTG." What I think you meant, animalism2, is that Apple won't let anyone else use their Fairplay DRM. But so what? They have to piggyback off of Apple's work? They can't use another?

In other words, what Lon said.


----------



## animalism2

Yes - now we're on the same page and also using the correct terms. And I do see what you guys are saying. So going with Lon's good point, given that they probably feel that they have to use some kind of DRM - possibly due to cable-labs regulations or something, what DRM might they use instead? And is it possible that despite the delays, they still feel that using Apple's DRM offers certain advantages that are important to them? Don't ask my why, but I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm pretty patient. TTG for Mac seems like a bonus to me, not a right. I chose a Mac knowing that that meant certain software limitations but knowing that it also brought certain software advantages from Apple.


----------



## Puppy76

geekmedic said:


> I'm sure in due time we will have a Mac version of TiVo-to-Go. Like you, I am rather impatient awaiting it. Hopefully, it will come in due time, and I truly believe it will.


In due time? It's been nearly two years!


----------



## tonyf3

blips said:


> I don't buy this theory. Apple has absolutely no incentive to work with Tivo. Look at the iPod. It is a closed platform that Apple will not let anyone in and they control the market. I believe they want to control the living room themselves and they don't need Tivo to do it. How many iTV's (or whatever Apple is going to call it) do you think Apple will sell the first year? Then by year two. Compare that to how many SA Tivo users there are. My theory is Apple's iTV user base will be at least the size of Tivo's SA user base in two years and continue to grow at a rate after that, that Tivo will not be able to touch. Apple has no use for Tivo, unless they want to buy them out.


I think you'll see an iTV demo in its final form and moniker at January's Macworld in SF.
At that time, TiVo will either have something to release for us or not. If not, I'll go with the above theory of Apple dominance in the living room within 2 years.


----------



## pdxkevin

FYI:

http://www.tuaw.com/2006/10/25/no-release-date-in-sight-for-tivotogo-for-mac/


----------



## pdxkevin

I wanted to share with you all what Dan Moren, a writer for Macworld's Gadgetbox, says about TiVo, and the company's recent press releases:

"Sometimes watching TiVo, the company, is like watching someone play pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey. They keep getting so close, and then missing completely, oftentimes colliding with a brick wall."

http://gadgets.macworld.com/video/tivo_broadband_video_deals_sti.php

My thoughts exactly, especially this past week.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Does anyone from Tivo come to this forum anymore? What is so wrong about at least addressing the issue? Its been so damn long many of us wouldn't be surprised if Tivo said it was dropping any further development on Mac TTG. At least we'd all know where we stand and could move on. 

I never bought the claim that Tivo was stringing us along to keep our business but it seems more and more true given the silence of Tivo's PR people.

C'mon Tivo. Macs and Tivo were made for each other.


----------



## cwoody222

hahahahaha.

They. Don't. Care.





Supporting Mac's is beyond Tivo's abilities..

and they could care less


----------



## pdxkevin

The Better Business Bureau:

www.bbb.com

It's time to take some action.


----------



## southerndoc

pdxkevin said:


> The Better Business Bureau:
> 
> www.bbb.com
> 
> It's time to take some action.


 You can't complain to the BBB for them not delivering software to the Mac. Many companies develop software for Windows and not the Mac.

The BBB will do nothing with your complaint, so save your time (and theirs). All you will get is a letter stating that there is nothing for them to do and suggesting that you contact TiVo directly.


----------



## pdxkevin

OK, Karnac.


----------



## errandwolfe

geekmedic said:


> You can't complain to the BBB for them not delivering software to the Mac. Many companies develop software for Windows and not the Mac.


Actually I wonder if they would get involved. I say that for two reasons. 1.) When I bought my Tivo I was told TTG would work on the Macintosh and there is nothing on the box that specifically says TTG will not work on the Mac. 2.) We are paying the same price per month as Windows users, but not getting the same features. In essence Mac users pay the same per month but do not get feature parity.


----------



## SullyND

errandwolfe said:


> Actually I wonder if they would get involved. I say that for two reasons. 1.) When I bought my Tivo I was told TTG would work on the Macintosh and there is nothing on the box that specifically says TTG will not work on the Mac. 2.) We are paying the same price per month as Windows users, but not getting the same features. In essence Mac users pay the same per month but do not get feature parity.


It doesn't say on the box that it doesn't work with Linux either. Linux users are paying the same price per month as Windows users, but not getting the same features. I'm still waiting for the DOS version to run on my 8086 in the garage.


----------



## animalism2

I had to chuckle a little at that line about as a "Mac user" being discriminated against for not being granted all the features as "Windows users." This is all in your perspective. You have to step out of your Mac-ness for a moment. Being a Mac User isn't a state of being like being a woman or being left-handed. Everyone out there who owns Tivo has the same functionality from Tivo Corp., including built-in free Tivotogo, compatible with Windows. As a "Mac user" there's nothing stopping you from using TTG except your own refusal to meet their hardware/software requirements.

And I say this as an exclusive Mac user (except at work) since 1985.


----------



## chessplayer

animalism2 said:


> Being a Mac User isn't a state of being like being a woman or being left-handed.


 It is a state of being, just as being a TiVo user is a state of being. Not innate, but a choice. That has no bearing on whether TiVo has behaved abominably and dishonestly on this issue. The issue is with stringing people along with misleading statements more than it is with the business decision of whether to support Mac users.


----------



## Fofer

Yeah, at this point, anyone holding out for TTG native support for Mac is deluding themselves, and setting themselves up for disappointment. 

Sorry to say it, but it's past the point of being ridiculous.


----------



## tonyf3

It's just a matter of time before a better Mac native application presents itself. Then they can have their windows users and suffer with them. They have forgotten their core beginnings with power pc and they will pay for it.


----------



## Turtleboy

I'm in favor of the Mac Tivo2Go as much as anyone, but I hate the stupid arguments. The BBB? We're paying the same amount and not getting the same features?

Are you people for real?

(Posted from my G4 powerbook).


----------



## SullyND

tonyf3 said:


> They have forgotten their core beginnings with power pc and they will pay for it.


I got a chuckle out of that.


----------



## tonyf3

Turtleboy said:


> I'm in favor of the Mac Tivo2Go as much as anyone, but I hate the stupid arguments. The BBB? We're paying the same amount and not getting the same features?
> 
> Are you people for real?
> 
> (Posted from my G4 powerbook).


Yeah, We are!
It's real simple. Discount my monthly rate for what they said they would provide their paying subscribers and didn't 2 years ago, and everyone will shut up. Or release the feature and have parity. If they do, increase the rate back to what it was. Nobody likes being BS'ed for 2 years actually 3.


----------



## Fofer

tonyf3 said:


> It's just a matter of time before a better Mac native application presents itself.


I'd say that TiVoTool is already that (provided you have a hacked TiVo, that is.)

It's a shame that I had to break open my box and hack the TiVo to bits simply to be able to add functionality TiVo should have delivered on their own long, long ago.

That said, if I wasn't able to hack my TiVo I probably would have abandoned it years ago, anyway!


----------



## southerndoc

tonf, you're with a news station. Do a news report on it. I'm sure if Tom Rogers has a camera thrown in his face asking tons of questions about it, it might persuade him to put some pressure on developing TTG for Mac. I've heard he lives in the Fairfield area.


----------



## animalism2

A news story? The BBB was one thing, but this clinches how out of touch with reality you people are. I've never heard such whining from spolied techno geeks in my life. I'm moving on to another thread...


----------



## Fofer

Thanks, animalism2.... it's probably for the best this way. I'm sure you put a lot of thought into your 10 other posts and all, but the truth is ... we "just weren't that into you" either.


----------



## Puppy76

Fofer said:


> Thanks, animalism2.... it's probably for the best this way. I'm sure you put a lot of thought into your 10 other posts and all, but the truth is ... we "just weren't that into you" either.


LOL! Yeah, I really have to wonder about someone like that. Thank goodness you posted, as I wasn't coming up with anything witty.


----------



## tonyf3

Fofer said:


> I'd say that TiVoTool is already that (provided you have a hacked TiVo, that is.)
> 
> It's a shame that I had to break open my box and hack the TiVo to bits simply to be able to add functionality TiVo should have delivered on their own long, long ago.
> 
> That said, if I wasn't able to hack my TiVo I probably would have abandoned it years ago, anyway![/QUOTE
> 
> I've been a little wary of cracking open my working TiVo's and Hacking them. Some hacks require unfettered access to a windows pc to complete the task. I think I reviewed your process a while back. I've since come into possesion of a dead TiVo (Hard Drive I think) might give that a crack since I'd have nothing to lose if I screw it up.
> 
> You thoughts Hobson.


----------



## tonyf3

animalism2 said:


> I had to chuckle a little at that line about as a "Mac user" being discriminated against for not being granted all the features as "Windows users." This is all in your perspective. You have to step out of your Mac-ness for a moment. Being a Mac User isn't a state of being like being a woman or being left-handed. Everyone out there who owns Tivo has the same functionality from Tivo Corp., including built-in free Tivotogo, compatible with Windows. As a "Mac user" there's nothing stopping you from using TTG except your own refusal to meet their hardware/software requirements.
> 
> And I say this as an exclusive Mac user (except at work) since 1985.


I want you to remember your quote: 
"Everyone out there who owns Tivo has the same functionality from Tivo Corp., including built-in free Tivotogo, compatible with Windows. As a "Mac user" there's nothing stopping you from using TTG except your own refusal to meet their hardware/software requirements."

Down the road your cable company is going to say sorry your TV does not meet the requirements of HD and you need to buy this digital receiver, or you wont be able to see TV at all. Let's see what you have to say then. 
It's not free, it's not built in, it's a stand alone app developed exclusively for windows.

As a Mac user since '84 let me tell you what being a Mac user is about. Since you seem to have forgotten.

It's about Principles: Great Industrial Design, Great Intergrated Software and Hardware, Ease of use and support, A device that does more than the average PC out of the box. It's about Cool tools that enhance your personal and professional life if you choose.

Most poeple don't know any better. It's big brother at work pushing the brain washed Windoze world. But thats starting to change, even at big companies.

So give us all a break with the attitude. We're not as pissed about not having the feature as TiVo the company refusing to tell us what really going on, and why.

So we rant, rave, vent, and make our voices heard. They're listening, they're just not talking back to us. That's why this sucks.


----------



## Fofer

tonyf3 said:


> I've been a little wary of cracking open my working TiVo's and Hacking them. Some hacks require unfettered access to a windows pc to complete the task. I think I reviewed your process a while back. I've since come into possesion of a dead TiVo (Hard Drive I think) might give that a crack since I'd have nothing to lose if I screw it up.
> 
> You thoughts Hobson.


Just do it. It's worth it. Life's too short to wallow in complaints. I used a cheapie PC I had laying around, it took about an hour, and my TiVo is better for it. TiVoWeb, bigger HD, TiVoTool... it's all very good.


----------



## pdxkevin

geekmedic said:


> You can't complain to the BBB for them not delivering software to the Mac. Many companies develop software for Windows and not the Mac.
> 
> The BBB will do nothing with your complaint, so save your time (and theirs). All you will get is a letter stating that there is nothing for them to do and suggesting that you contact TiVo directly.


You are actually very incorrect. It's all about the fact that TiVo has said they are working on TTG for OSX, which has been 2-3 years now. * It's in writing that TiVo was to have that functionality available during the middle of this year.* In the mean time, people are still paying their subscription fees to TiVo, based on this promise that hasn't amounted to a hill of smashed TiVo boxes.

If TiVo would have said from the start that they were not going to have TTG for Mac OS X; that's a different story.

Bottom line: TiVo has not honored it's contract regarding TTG for Mac OSX.

So for all of you that got a good laugh out of some of the above posts, stick all of your belittling and self-rightous remarks in your PCs and chuckle all you want.

By the way, thank for supporting us. I'm so glad you were able to help. With all of your hot air, you could work for TiVo.


----------



## davezatz

pdxkevin said:


> TiVo has not honored it's contract regarding TTG for Mac OSX.


Where can I find that contract?


----------



## southerndoc

pdxkevin said:


> You are actually very incorrect. It's all about the fact that TiVo has said they are working on TTG for OSX, which has been 2-3 years now. * It's in writing that TiVo was to have that functionality available during the middle of this year.* In the mean time, people are still paying their subscription fees to TiVo, based on this promise that hasn't amounted to a hill of smashed TiVo boxes.
> 
> If TiVo would have said from the start that they were not going to have TTG for Mac OS X; that's a different story.
> 
> Bottom line: TiVo has not honored it's contract regarding TTG for Mac OSX.
> 
> So for all of you that got a good laugh out of some of the above posts, stick all of your belittling and self-rightous remarks in your PCs and chuckle all you want.
> 
> By the way, thank for supporting us. I'm so glad you were able to help. With all of your hot air, you could work for TiVo.


 I tell you what... you go ahead and write the BBB. Be sure to post their response (or lack thereof) when you get one.


----------



## Fofer

Write the Better Business Bureau?

Yeah, *that'll* get TiVo off their duff, and get them to release TTG for Mac!

Pffffffffffft.


----------



## TydalForce

in all seriousness, I wonder if the BBB could actually do something....

TiVo promised TTG for Mac users when it released it for Windows. They kept saying "coming soon" over and over again, until they finally set a date of Mid-2006. Then, they missed it, and are back to "coming soon"

Charging the same price, and making a promise that they have yet to deliver. 

This might not be *that* crazy of an idea -- i'd say, give it a shot and let us know how it goes.

No use fighting about it; we're all on the same side here!


----------



## southerndoc

TydalForce said:


> TiVo promised TTG for Mac users when it released it for Windows. They kept saying "coming soon" over and over again, until they finally set a date of Mid-2006. Then, they missed it, and are back to "coming soon"


Promised is different from stating. Promise is by contract, which I've yet to see. Stating is mentioning that you are working on it.

Do you think Microsoft has been held liable for the numerous delays its had with its many operating system releases? Do you think the Better Business Bureau does anything to them for it?

TiVo has not promised TTG:mac. Mac owners still get what TiVo has promised them: DVR recording on their TV.

I want TTG:mac just as much as you guys, but I think it's foolish to write the BBB. It's a waste of your time and a waste of BBB's time. Write TiVo's CEO and threaten to cancel your subscription. If people write Tom Rogers and threaten to cancel their TiVo service, then it will get his attention.

Personally I think TiVo's attention to lack of TTG:mac has already been made. The fact that they've posted it in their TiVo suggestions feedback form means they are working on it.


----------



## Turtleboy

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the class action law suite (sic) in a while.


----------



## Welshdog

The BBB is run by businesses for businesses so they are not exactly consumer friendly. The best way to get something going is to call the consumer fraud division of your state attorney general's office. Might not get you any traction, but it's worth a try. Tivo will definitely sit up and notice when they get that phone call. You would of course have to have some sort of proof of the alleged fraud. That would most likely be screen grabs of Tivo's website showing where and when they made these "promises". Seems like I have seen some posted on TCF before.

You've got to know where to put the fulcrum in order to get the most leverage.


----------



## chessplayer

TydalForce said:


> No use fighting about it; we're all on the same side here!


 Except for certain zealots who want TiVo to NOT support the Mac, to spite the people here who are venting their frustration with TiVo's atrocious behavior. One might think that people who don't care about this issue would just not read the thread, but some people seem to be enjoying the fact that TiVo keeps disappointing their Mac users.

I agree that complaining to the BBB is unlikely to help. It's best to voice your feelings directly to TiVo, and to consider the alternatives such as eyeTV. Goodwill and good communication on both sides is called for here, but at this point I see neither forthcoming from TiVo.


----------



## errandwolfe

Welshdog said:


> The best way to get something going is to call the consumer fraud division of your state attorney general's office.


Surely out of all these people there must be at least one attorney who can give his opinion. I know if someone had the resources to start a class action I would definitely opt in.

The fact is Tivo has made numerous broken promises when it comes to TTG for Mac users. I see absolutely no reason why I should pay the same price per month when I do not get the same services as a Windows user. If Tivo is going to continue not releasing a new client then TTG should be an OPTIONAL service that can be taken off and drop my monthly fee say $1 per month.

Now as for Linux users, the bottom line is when they bought their Tivo's there never were any promises made to them for TTG functionality so that whole argument of well Linux users don't have it either just doesn't fly!


----------



## SullyND

errandwolfe said:


> I see absolutely no reason why I should pay the same price per month when I do not get the same services as a Windows user.


I must have missed the gun TiVo is holding to your head. Not happy with the price? Drop your service. I'm contemplating doing just that because of the new pricing. TiVo will notice you dropping your service moreso than a BBB complaint. Either TiVo without T2go is worth it for you, or it's not. I don't buy the whole "i'm paying the same price" argument, unless you're lifetime. No one is making you continue your TiVo service.


----------



## southerndoc

SullyND said:


> No one is making you continue your TiVo service.


Words worth repeating, in a bigger font.

No one is making you continue your TiVo service.


----------



## davezatz

errandwolfe said:


> The fact is Tivo has made numerous broken promises when it comes to TTG for Mac users. I see absolutely no reason why I should pay the same price per month when I do not get the same services as a Windows user. If Tivo is going to continue not releasing a new client then TTG should be an OPTIONAL service that can be taken off and drop my monthly fee say $1 per month.


I used to be bitter when TiVo raised monthly rates from $10 to $13 since I was only using OTA channels at the time. Surely those with digital cable were getting much more guide data than I was and even using an IR blaster, so they should be the ones paying more! Then I remembered we're all voluntary customers here. If we're not happy, we can leave (or write Tom Rogers as some suggested). Those locked into a year commitment might have an argument to be released based on missed targets, though Mac TTG service wasn't contractually promised.

I bought iLife a couple of weeks prior to the original TTG release assuming my Mac would be supported. Yeah, I'd like that $75 back. I made an assumption and TiVo didn't deliver. Crap happens and I moved on.

In the last six weeks I've spoken with two of my TiVo contacts regarding this topic and they've convinced me that they have people working on this and that development continues (and megazone snapped pics of a alpha version last January) - so there's no doubt in my mind it's something they plan on offering. As to when, who knows... My attitude is: I'll be pleasantly surprised when it finally gets here. (Though if they dilly dally much longer I may have traded my last S2 for another S3 by the time it's available.)


----------



## cwoody222

davezatz said:


> In the last six weeks I've spoken with two of my TiVo contacts regarding this topic and they've convinced me that they have people working on this and that development continues (and megazone snapped pics of a alpha version last January)


No offense, Dave, but what are these - the SLOWEST developers EVER?!?!?!

Bottom line: TiVo. Doesn't. Care. About. Mac. Users.

Get used to it.

That said - a BB letter and/or class action lawsuit are stupid pursuits that have zero merit.


----------



## davezatz

cwoody222 said:


> No offense, Dave, but what are these - the SLOWEST developers EVER?!?!?!
> 
> Bottom line: TiVo. Doesn't. Care. About. Mac. Users.
> 
> Get used to it.
> 
> That said - a BB letter and/or class action lawsuit are stupid pursuits that have zero merit.


Doesn't offend me whatsoever.  To paraphrase Bill Parcels... you are what your record says you are. (_You _being TiVo, not you cwoody.) TiVo hasn't communicated in the forum on this issue in some time, so I did want to share what little I know for those looking for a glimmer of hope.


----------



## Tivortex

tonyf3 said:


> As a Mac user since '84 let me tell you what being a Mac user is about. Since you seem to have forgotten.
> 
> It's about Principles: Great Industrial Design, Great Intergrated Software and Hardware, Ease of use and support, A device that does more than the average PC out of the box. It's about Cool tools that enhance your personal and professional life if you choose.


Dude! You forgot the part about drinking the Kool-Aid. 

I've got a Mac and TTG would be nice but I'm not losing any sleep over it.


----------



## donsullivan

davezatz said:


> ....TiVo hasn't communicated in the forum on this issue in some time, so I did want to share what little I know for those looking for a glimmer of hope.


I pretty much concluded after this post from TiVoPony back in September:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4330573&&#post4330573

that after getting burned by the mid-2006 committment (albeit an informal one) they missed, I anticipate they will not comment again on this topic until or if they deliver. They've botched this whole thing so badly it's hard to comprehend. I would not be surprised if that post is the last we'll ever hear from them on the topic.

I gave up and cancelled the service on my S2 TiVo back in September but continue to follow this dialog as an academic exercise. The clear reality is that outside of this forum, this feature, for this portion of the TiVo customer base is clearly not important to them.

There obviously isn't that much negative impact to TiVo outside of this forum for not doing this. It's not like we see the Mac community in an uproar about this feature not being available. Apple doesn't seem to be be bothered that this service is not available on their platform. All sorts of other new features are being added and we still don't see TTG for Mac.

It's pretty obvious that it's not coming. I'm just waiting for TiVo to admit it.


----------



## tonyf3

Tivortex said:


> Dude! You forgot the part about drinking the Kool-Aid.
> 
> I've got a Mac and TTG would be nice but I'm not losing any sleep over it.


Hey, I'm not losing any sleep over it.
They just piss me off. Today I saw an AT&T commericial offering what appeared to be the same functionality as Apples' forthcoming iTV, and it's not even out yet. What does that tell you? As far as the Kool Aid, I always thought of it the other way around. Masses of people, Blindly following Windows & Bill Gates sucked in with a bunch of empty promises and slight of hand.


----------



## opie408

Instead of all the belly-aching, *****ing and moaning, let us do something about it! Why pose the question of why does tivo come up short on their promise for a MAC version of tivo2go, and form a collective of MAC users to assist tivo in development of a tivo2go MAC edition. Stop being the victim and take a proactive approach, the victim thing is not working 58 thread pages later?


----------



## errandwolfe

opie408 said:


> Instead of all the belly-aching, *****ing and moaning, let us do something about it! Why pose the question of why does tivo come up short on their promise for a MAC version of tivo2go, and form a collective of MAC users to assist tivo in development of a tivo2go MAC edition. Stop being the victim and take a proactive approach, the victim thing is not working 58 thread pages later?


I think that is a brilliant idea! It only has a single flaw....the simple fact that Tivo will not communicate with us and tell us WHY there is such a huge delay. The fact is it is most likely not a programming issue at all but something to deal with DRM. Tivo has been EXTREMELY tight lipped about TTG for Mac. Every 6 months or so we simply get an "It's coming soon." They won't even say if they currently have a working beta. The last VERIFIABLE statement from Tivo was when an Alpha version of TTG was seen in January....almost a full year ago now.

Trust me half the people on this forum would jump up in joy just to get there hands on even a bug ridden beta! Tivo could have all the help they wanted, the problem is they don't want it.


----------



## cwoody222

Because. They. Don't. Care.


----------



## TydalForce

TiVo has a page somewhere where you can volunteer to beta test stuff for them... basically, you fill out a "survey" saying what kind of equipment you have so they know if you'd be useful in testing something new

They surveyed me once for a new feature that was going to come out (WPA), and I took the survey, but they didn't select me for the program. Oh well

Point is, most of us Mac users have probably signed up for that Beta program, and would be more than happy to play with TTG Mac. But as far as I know, none of us have been contacted.

http://www.tivo.com/beta to anyone who wants to sign up


----------



## nightstrm

TydalForce said:


> TiVo has a page somewhere where you can volunteer to beta test stuff for them... basically, you fill out a "survey" saying what kind of equipment you have so they know if you'd be useful in testing something new
> 
> They surveyed me once for a new feature that was going to come out (WPA), and I took the survey, but they didn't select me for the program. Oh well
> 
> Point is, most of us Mac users have probably signed up for that Beta program, and would be more than happy to play with TTG Mac. But as far as I know, none of us have been contacted.
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/beta to anyone who wants to sign up


Good idea; I just signed up in hopes of seeing some progress on this front. While I have never been able to use the TTG functionality (first TiVo was a series 1), I think it would be a useful feature in the future.


----------



## TydalForce

I like playing with new stuff, so TTG-Mac or not, I wanted to volunteer

I figured also, the more people who say "I have a Mac" on the beta signup screen, the better -- a "show of force" if you will, or "strength in numbers" -- whatever you want to call it, it shows there's more of us (c:


----------



## gonzotek

TydalForce said:


> But as far as I know, none of us have been contacted.


TiVos beta programs are conducted under NDAs. If you are selected to participate in one, you are supposed to keep that information to yourself, so the general forum populace here at TCF wouldn't be aware of an ongoing Mac beta test, were such a program in existence.


----------



## TydalForce

First rule of TiVo Beta Program

Don't Talk About TiVo Beta Program

SHH!


----------



## gonzotek

TydalForce said:


> First rule of TiVo Beta Program
> 
> Don't Talk About TiVo Beta Program
> 
> SHH!


----------



## Daisey31

I installed Tivo Desktop on my powerbook in Oct. I just noticed a folder that is empty, but is titled TivoShows. It is in my user file. I didn't put it there...Anybody else have this happen?


----------



## TydalForce

TiVo Desktop has a "hidden" Feature where you can send video *from* your Mac *To* the TiVo

It has to be encoded in a very specific format, but can be done

Hold the Command key when you click on the TiVo Desktop icon in System Preferences (I think?) to enable the Video tab

There's more information floating around the forum about it, and one of our enterprising members wrote a spiffy little program to automagically convert video to TiVo friendly format:

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/21613


----------



## opie408

I think now that we have the wheels started in the right direction now. Let's keep it going, sign up for the beta tests, list in your profile that you are a Mac user. The power is in numbers and not in tear drops and belly aches. Instead of saying we are being neglected, lets be able to post a statement saying we were neglected!!!! MAC USERS UNITE!


----------



## Fofer

"Over? Did you say 'over'? Nothing is over until _we decide it is!_ Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"


----------



## joelhilgy

Daisey31 said:


> I installed Tivo Desktop on my powerbook in Oct. I just noticed a folder that is empty, but is titled TivoShows. It is in my user file. I didn't put it there...Anybody else have this happen?


Same here , I was going to post asking the same.

Throw the switch TiVo!!!


----------



## errandwolfe

TydalForce said:


> TiVo Desktop has a "hidden" Feature where you can send video *from* your Mac *To* the TiVo
> 
> It has to be encoded in a very specific format, but can be done
> 
> Hold the Command key when you click on the TiVo Desktop icon in System Preferences (I think?) to enable the Video tab
> 
> There's more information floating around the forum about it, and one of our enterprising members wrote a spiffy little program to automagically convert video to TiVo friendly format:
> 
> http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/21613


Why why why would Tivo hide this feature?! To me the ability to upload video to my Tivo is one of the main reasons I wanted a new version of TTG. I do a lot of video editing, and the ability to preview it on my TV without wasting a DVD to burn a work in progress to. I have been having to first copy the video to a Windows PC first.

Tydal, thank you so much for offering up this little tid bit!


----------



## TydalForce

I think it is hidden because
- its the first release and maybe they're not done with it yet
or
- converting to the very specific format it has to be in isn't necessarily easy, and they didn't want to confuse people who just dumped videos into that folder

I tried it, but I got tired of waiting for the 1GB file transfer over my network :b~ Those mpeg2 videos are huuuuuge


----------



## westside_guy

Apple's upcoming iTV is recently rumored to handle "more than just streaming media from your computer". I know, I know - rumors... but still. I'm only paying Tivo month-to-month anymore. Apple knows how to do interfaces. If the iTV does do what Tivo does (or even just most of it), I'm gone. Tivo's had time to add another "feature" - the upcoming "would you like a commercial with that delete request?". Nice to know their efforts are going toward improving my experience as a customer...


----------



## TydalForce

I guess that partly depends on how invasive this commercial at the end really is

I wouldn't mind a snapshot of the product, and an extra menu option "learn more about this product" as long as 

- its 100% optional
- it doesn't default to "learn more"

If it can bring in more revenue for TiVo Inc without getting in our way, then I'm all for it.


----------



## blips

westside_guy said:


> Apple's upcoming iTV is recently rumored to handle "more than just streaming media from your computer". I know, I know - rumors... but still. I'm only paying Tivo month-to-month anymore. Apple knows how to do interfaces. If the iTV does do what Tivo does (or even just most of it), I'm gone. Tivo's had time to add another "feature" - the upcoming "would you like a commercial with that delete request?". Nice to know their efforts are going toward improving my experience as a customer...


As far as I understand iTV is it will be like the iTunes and the Apple airport express. It is just an interface from your computer to a TV. So you can see on TV what is stored on your computer. I don't get the impression that it will have a TV tuner or a Hard Drive. If you want it to replace your Tivo you will have to get a TV tuner for you Apple computer and have that act as your DVR storage unit. Then you can watch it on your TV through iTV. That is what I gather it will be, I can be completely wrong. To me iTV will not replace your Tivo, yet (depending on future enhancements).


----------



## ljcaswell

I can't post the URL, but check out thinksecret

Apple Computer's forthcoming iTV set-top box may include features beyond streaming content and could have an impact on video similar to what the iPod has done for music, Bear Stearns analyst Andy Neff told clients in a research note Wednesday.

Neff said he recently emerged from a meeting with Apple Chief Financial Officer Peter Oppenheimer and Vice President of iPod Product Marketing Greg Joswiak feeling "optimistic about the company's "continued innovation and twin drivers," referring to the company's competitively priced Intel Macs and compelling new iPods.

"Ultimately, Apple's goal is to create a product that customers would want (as opposed to creating new technology merely for the sake of technology), while focusing on areas where it can differentiate," he wrote. "Apple noted that it has a number of products currently in development that are likely to be introduced over several years."

Although Apple would not disclose additional specifications of iTV, Neff said the company highlighted that the device fits within its vision of simplifying consumers' use of content.

"Though details remain sketchy, Apple emphasized [the] focus of iTV [is] to improve user experience by leveraging its software expertise and implied that there may be features beyond the mere streaming of video content," the analyst wrote.

Apple has already acknowledged that the device will also be capable of streaming photos, music and podcasts. But during the meeting it also hinted at additional features such as an "internal hard disk drive for storage" and "advanced user interface software."


----------



## Fofer

blips said:


> I don't get the impression that it will have a TV tuner or a Hard Drive. If you want it to replace your Tivo you will have to get a TV tuner for you Apple computer and have that act as your DVR storage unit. Then you can watch it on your TV through iTV.


And what if you could use it to directly purchase, download and/or stream shows from the iTunes Store? Even if that content is "saved" on your computer, if the UI allows for full control in front of the TV, I'd still say it's treading close to TiVo territory.

Apple's Front Row software (and iTunes software itself) streams movie trailers beautifully. The experience is much better than what the Xbox 360 offers, for example. What if they did the same for longer shows?

Let's not forget, too, that the shows downloaded have *no commercials.* One day, if all my favorite shows were available for download from the iTunes Store, it might even be cheaper to "subscribe" to all of them, than paying for DirecTV or Cable for a package of channels I'm not watching.

Oh and for the record, we've been told the iTV will work with Macs *and* PC's.


----------



## blips

Fofer said:


> And what if you could use it to directly purchase, download and/or stream shows from the iTunes Store? Even if that content is "saved" on your computer, if the UI allows for full control in front of the TV, I'd still say it's treading close to TiVo territory.
> 
> Let's not forget, too, that the shows downloaded have *no commercials.* One day, if all my favorite shows were available for download from the iTunes Store, it might even be cheaper to "subscribe" to all of them, than paying for DirecTV or Cable for a package of channels I'm not watching.
> 
> Oh and for the record, we've been told the iTV will work with Macs *and* PC's.


Sounds promising. :up: :up: :up:

But downloading show from iTunes is a little too pricey for my budget. Maybe as you allude to some sort of way to subscribe it would bring the price down.

I use DirecTV not only for shows but I watch a lot of sports. So I doubt that iTV would be able to replace DirecTV for me any time in the near future. So I'm paying for DirecTV anyway and record my shows on my DirecTivo. But it would be nice if they had all my sports programming. That is when I could consider cutting out DTV.


----------



## cwoody222

TiVo. Doesn't. Care.


----------



## Doc.

Tivo Obviously is stuck in the stone age and doesn't realize that Apple is the computer that is going to be in everyones homes in the near future.

I guess that seperates a progressive company like Apple and Tivo.


----------



## errandwolfe

TydalForce said:


> I think it is hidden because
> - its the first release and maybe they're not done with it yet
> or
> - converting to the very specific format it has to be in isn't necessarily easy, and they didn't want to confuse people who just dumped videos into that folder
> 
> I tried it, but I got tired of waiting for the 1GB file transfer over my network :b~ Those mpeg2 videos are huuuuuge


Well if the video needs to be in the same format as when you transfer from Windows to Tivo then converting it is a snap. I use VisualHub to do the conversion and it works great.


----------



## TydalForce

There's a couple utilities that can transcode the video -- ffmpegx comes to mind -- and those work fine, its just a matter of knowing you have to do it, and knowing *exactly* which settings to choose so the video works when it reaches the TiVo...

The TiVo Desktop preference pane doesn't say this. It just has an option to publish the videos, point it to the appropriate folder on the hard drive, and go. Many users would probably just dump some video files into that folder, turn it on, and wonder why the videos didn't work...

I suspect that's why they hid it. Put it there for us geeks to play with, and expand on its functionality for a future release


----------



## javabird

Thanks for posting this, but I'm having trouble getting it to work. I enabled the Video tab just fine, and my TiVoShows folder shows up on the Tivo Now pLaying list. But I put some .Tivo files in there that I had previously downloaded from Tivo to my Mac over the network, and the the files don't show up. Do the .tivo files need to be given a different file extension or converted before they will appear?



TydalForce said:


> TiVo Desktop has a "hidden" Feature where you can send video *from* your Mac *To* the TiVo
> 
> It has to be encoded in a very specific format, but can be done
> 
> Hold the Command key when you click on the TiVo Desktop icon in System Preferences (I think?) to enable the Video tab
> 
> There's more information floating around the forum about it, and one of our enterprising members wrote a spiffy little program to automagically convert video to TiVo friendly format:


----------



## TydalForce

Is your TiVo seeing the computer but not finding the files? Or are the shows showing up in the TiVo but not transferring? Any error messages?

I do seem to recall that... if you put new files in that folder, you have to go Stop and then Start the TiVo Desktop server (through the preference pane). I believe it takes an inventory of that folder on startup, and won't recognize changes on the fly.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

TydalForce said:


> I do seem to recall that... if you put new files in that folder, you have to go Stop and then Start the TiVo Desktop server (through the preference pane). I believe it takes an inventory of that folder on startup, and won't recognize changes on the fly.


It will pick up changes, but only about once every 15 minutes, looking at the logs. Starting and stopping the server when you've added something is the fastest way to get them recognized.

While it doesn't appear to be necessary with MPEGs you transcode yourself, you may need to have the correct MAK entered in the video panel for .tivo files to work.


----------



## Welshdog

I have noticed in the Tivo Shows folder that when I convert a file using ffmpegx or Tivoizer that files called "filename.properties" appear along with the converted file. I assume this helps your Tivo find non .tivo files?



> There's a couple utilities that can transcode the video -- ffmpegx comes to mind -- and those work fine, its just a matter of knowing you have to do it, and knowing *exactly* which settings to choose so the video works when it reaches the TiVo...


I also have had some trouble converting files (bittorented avi mostly). Tivoizer works sometimes, but lately has failed a lot. I used ffmpegx the other night and it worked perfectly. This helped me get the settings right:

Tivo file transfer specs


----------



## FreedMegabyte

pdxkevin said:


> You are actually very incorrect. It's all about the fact that TiVo has said they are working on TTG for OSX, which has been 2-3 years now. * It's in writing that TiVo was to have that functionality available during the middle of this year.* In the mean time, people are still paying their subscription fees to TiVo, based on this promise that hasn't amounted to a hill of smashed TiVo boxes.
> 
> If TiVo would have said from the start that they were not going to have TTG for Mac OS X; that's a different story.
> 
> Bottom line: TiVo has not honored it's contract regarding TTG for Mac OSX.
> 
> So for all of you that got a good laugh out of some of the above posts, stick all of your belittling and self-rightous remarks in your PCs and chuckle all you want.
> 
> By the way, thank for supporting us. I'm so glad you were able to help. With all of your hot air, you could work for TiVo.


I would not have purchased TiVo if they had not of had it in writing that they were committed to supporting TTG Mac OSX. I'm still waiting, but no longer patiently.


----------



## javabird

TydalForce said:


> Is your TiVo seeing the computer but not finding the files? Or are the shows showing up in the TiVo but not transferring? Any error messages?
> 
> I do seem to recall that... if you put new files in that folder, you have to go Stop and then Start the TiVo Desktop server (through the preference pane). I believe it takes an inventory of that folder on startup, and won't recognize changes on the fly.


Thanks! I got it working and now I'm a happy camper! It needed my MAC address before the videos would show up.


----------



## Quevar

FreedMegabyte said:


> I would not have purchased TiVo if they had not of had it in writing that they were committed to supporting TTG Mac OSX. I'm still waiting, but no longer patiently.


I would have still got my TiVo, but I would not have the ill will toward the company that I now have. They never made a contract, but up until the point that TTG came out, they had supported the Mac equally and made no mention of the fact that it wasn't coming out for the Mac. I got my TiVo at Christmas two years ago, just before the lack of Mac support.

Fact is - I liked my TiVo better two years ago more than I like it now and I don't think I would buy one now. They keep adding a lot of features, but I care about very few of them. Each release slows down my TiVo to the point that it now takes several seconds to draw all menus when I interact with it. I have repeatedly told them, via their online feedback, about the features that I want and they keep coming out with other features that I do not want and slowing down my TiVo. My irritation with them continues to grow with each day of silence toward their Mac users and with each new release that slows down my system. Unless this trend reverses, I don't foresee TiVo getting any money from me (I have a lifetime and won't buy a new one unless they shape up) or my friends (cause I tell them about my irritations with TiVo). As a business that continues to lose tens of millions of dollars a quarter, they may want to start thinking about the business model and try to appease people that will soon be looking toward different options.


----------



## macrob

O.K. I'm done waiting

I'm ready to hack my tivo.
I've been doing a lot of research the past 2 days (I'm on vacation from work) and it seems that the series 2 are now hackable. The best hack for Mac users seems to be TivoTool (Thanks Fofer), and the more I read about it, the more I want it. My prob is that I'm a newbie when it comes to linux, and I'm not sure which tools I need to use.

Does anyone know of a step by step guide to do this?

I've found several, but they have directions like "copy vserver to your tivo" but I don't know *how* to copy to tivo.

If I can't find the answers I'll give it a go an my own, and If I hose my tivos then I guess I'll have to go by a replaytv instead.


----------



## Fofer

Save yourself the hassle. Buy a pre-hacked, larger hard drive instead:
http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/stores/1/category.cfm?SID=1&Category_ID=3&learnmore=1


----------



## macrob

Thanks, but they don't offer anything for stand alone series 2 units. Their download software is what I planed to use though to hack. Thats why I need some linux giudance.


----------



## javabird

javabird said:


> Thanks! I got it working and now I'm a happy camper! It needed my MAC address before the videos would show up.


I meant to say it needs the MAK.

One problem I've noticed is that it keeps "forgetting" the video setting... I need to reset the videos option periodically as the Videos tab disappears after a time. This seems weird, since other preference settings are not forgotten.

Anyone else had this problem or found a workaround?


----------



## davezatz

Looks like TTG encryption has been cracked. I assume someone needs to compile this on OS X and we're set. A front-end would be nice as well.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=329879
http://tivodecode.sourceforge.net/


----------



## TydalForce

I tried "that application of which we're not allowed to speak" this morning real quick before leaving for work. I had no audio. I presume because I have a DRT-800, and the DVD based models use a different audio codec than the non-DVD units. Either that or I screwed up.


----------



## Lon

WOOT! works for me!


----------



## Lon

some comments:

if you have the XCode and/or Gnu compilers installed -- simply type make in the source directory.

for converted files:

VLC (I am currently using 0.8.6-test2a) works great

mplayer works fine

Quicktime Player doesn't work for me (even though I have Apple's MPEG2 codec installed) video stalls, but audio is fine

Quality is what you would expect from an analog-to-digital original file.


----------



## davezatz

Lon said:


> (even though I have Apple's MPEG2 codec installed)


There are various flavors of MPEG-2 and Apple doesn't support them all...

I'll have to muck around when I get home tonight.


----------



## unixb0y

Lon said:


> some comments:
> 
> if you have the XCode and/or Gnu compilers installed -- simply type make in the source directory.
> 
> for converted files:
> 
> VLC (I am currently using 0.8.6-test2a) works great
> 
> mplayer works fine
> 
> Quicktime Player doesn't work for me (even though I have Apple's MPEG2 codec installed) video stalls, but audio is fine
> 
> Quality is what you would expect from an analog-to-digital original file.


How long does it take to "convert" a show?


----------



## TydalForce

Define "convert"

If you mean to shove it through this new utility, its really fast -- I did a 500meg (15minute) program in like 2 minutes. 

If you mean "run through some application to make it another video format",... longer. lol


----------



## davezatz

Lon said:


> if you have the XCode and/or Gnu compilers installed -- simply type make in the source directory.


I'm a part time Mac user (don't hate me)... where would I find suitable free compiler for 10.3.9?


----------



## Lon

davezatz said:


> I'm a part time Mac user (don't hate me)... where would I find suitable free compiler for 10.3.9?


If you cannot find your XCode disk that came with 10.3 you can find binaries for gcc at a number of sites

http://www.google.com/search?q=gcc+binaries+mac+os+x

Or if you already have fink installed - that would likely be the easiest path.


----------



## TheSlyBear

davezatz said:


> I'm a part time Mac user (don't hate me)... where would I find suitable free compiler for 10.3.9?


Everything needed is installed as part of the Apple Dev Tools. It should be on your Panther installation DVD.


----------



## Unix_Beard

Fantastic.



unixb0y said:


> How long does it take to "convert" a show?


I did a 30 minute show in seconds (like 30-40). I was using a 2.16GHz Core Duo iMac.


----------



## davezatz

Awesome - thanks!! I actually have two install/restore DVDs and it's on neither, but I have an Installation folder on the HD which had it waiting for me. I'll be back shortly with questions on how to *use* it.


----------



## Lon

no timing stats to offer -- but I converted 9 hours (almost 23 GB of data) then used iSquint to make mp4 files (latter step took quite awhile, but was only a few clicks in effort)


----------



## davezatz

Did the iSquint MP4 work on an iPod? My video iPod is no more, I only have a red Nano these days. 

Xcode install and 'make' were too easy. Going to covert in a second. Assume it all works, I'll put together a little guide for folks - if a part-time Mac guy like me can do it this easily, everyone should be ale to handle it.


----------



## davezatz

OK dumb question... once I make tivocode, where does it live? If I'm in Terminal viewing the Desktop dir, what path might I use? Thanks and sorry for being so thick.


----------



## Lon

davezatz said:


> Did the iSquint MP4 work on an iPod? My video iPod is no more, I only have a red Nano these days.


yes -- works fine on my 5th Gen iPod 



> Xcode install and 'make' were too easy. Going to covert in a second. Assume it all works, I'll put together a little guide for folks - if a part-time Mac guy like me can do it this easily, everyone should be ale to handle it.


( must refrain from making windows v mac comment...  )


----------



## Lon

davezatz said:


> OK dumb question... once I make tivocode, where does it live? If I'm in Terminal viewing the Desktop dir, what path might I use? Thanks and sorry for being so thick.


in terminal type "echo $path"

you can put it in one of the listed directories -- preferably /usr/local/bin if you have it in your path


----------



## gonzotek

Lon said:


> in terminal type "echo $path"
> 
> you can put it in one of the listed directories -- preferably /usr/local/bin if you have it in your path


I think he meant "Where does the compiler put the binary?"


----------



## davezatz

It puts it in the folder with the source - duh! 

So yeah I found it... but I'm doing something wrong, user error I'm sure:
tivodecode-0.1.2/objects.dir/tivodecode -m XXXXXXXXXX distraction.tivo -o distraction.mpg

This brings up the list of tivodecode flags/options... what did I goof?


----------



## Lon

gonzotek said:


> I think he meant "Where does the compiler put the binary?"


my bad

the README file (in tivodecode directory) tells you the binary is in objects.dir -- and gives examples of its use


----------



## Lon

davezatz said:


> It puts it in the folder with the source - duh!
> 
> So yeah I found it... but I'm doing something wrong, user error I'm sure:
> tivodecode-0.1.2/objects.dir/tivodecode -m XXXXXXXXXX distraction.tivo -o distraction.mpg
> 
> This brings up the list of tivodecode flags/options... what did I goof?


looks like your options are out of order -- the program is strict in its order: file to be converted should be the last thing on the line


----------



## davezatz

Lon said:


> looks like your options are out of order -- the program is strict in its order: file to be converted should be the last thing on the line


Sweet - that did it!

No audio for me via VLC or mplayer. File came from a Humax DVD burning TiVo and like I mentioned I'm running 10.3.9. Who else has no audio and what TiVo and Mac software do you have?


----------



## TydalForce

davezatz said:


> Sweet - that did it!
> 
> No audio for me via VLC or mplayer. File came from a Humax DVD burning TiVo and like I mentioned I'm running 10.3.9. Who else has no audio and what TiVo and Mac software do you have?


Dave I think you confirmed my suspicion

I have a Humax DVD model and had the same thing; no audio
Mac OS X 10.4.8
Tried VLC and MplayerX


----------



## gonzotek

Have/Can either of you take an output file to the Windows GSpot program?


----------



## davezatz

I'm working with the developer now and testing a patch. He says the audio is handled differently as Tydal suspected. Stay tuned!

EDIT: Patch works! I assume he'll bundle this or add it as an optional download shortly. Kick ass!

EDIT 2: Version 0.1.3 is out now and corrects the missing audio prob related to DVD units.


----------



## TydalForce

sweet -- nice job! 

Now that i've given my Series2 to my parents and switched to a Series3 which has no web server...


----------



## Unix_Beard

My first Tivo to iPod conversion (on the Mac) and it was pretty painless. :up:


----------



## SnakeEyes

Someone want to give an idiots guide? I've never compiled sourcecode before.


----------



## nightstrm

TydalForce said:


> sweet -- nice job!
> 
> Now that i've given my Series2 to my parents and switched to a Series3 which has no web server...


Yeah, is there any way to get this to work with a Series3 unit?


----------



## FrooBrar

I'm glad everyone is liking my program so much. I wrote the thing 'cause I wanted to convert TiVo files on my Linux box without a windows vm. I made it portable because I like portable software, little did I know that it would have a nice, large audience among Mac fans 

Has anyone tried it on >4GB files on the Mac yet? I am not sure if I got large file support correct for the Mac, as I don't own one.


----------



## Lon

FrooBrar said:


> I'm glad everyone is liking my program so much. I wrote the thing 'cause I wanted to convert TiVo files on my Linux box without a windows vm. I made it portable because I like portable software, little did I know that it would have a nice, large audience among Mac fans
> 
> Has anyone tried it on >4GB files on the Mac yet? I am not sure if I got large file support correct for the Mac, as I don't own one.


Thank you!! We are very grateful!

as to the file size -- no problem. I just tested your latest version on a 7.65 GB file (done in under 4 minutes on a dual G5 (2GHz)


----------



## SnakeEyes

Anyone want to offer a compiled binary?


----------



## FrooBrar

SnakeEyes said:


> Anyone want to offer a compiled binary?


The SourceForge compile farm offers a "[PPC - G5] MacOS X 10.2 SERVER Edition" box. I know next to nothing about Macs and portability of binaries, but I could compile it there and stuff the binary, README, and COPYING into a .tar.gz or .zip or something like I did the Windows binary. Does anyone know if I built it on the above mentioned box, if that would be a good binary for general Mac users?


----------



## icurnvs

You'll probably want to find something for Intel Macs too. The PPC-G5 refers to older Macs using IBM PowerPC G5 chips. Apple has moved over to Intel processors in the last year. I may be wrong in this suggestion, so anyone can feel free to correct me.


----------



## Lon

FrooBrar said:


> The SourceForge compile farm offers a "[PPC - G5] MacOS X 10.2 SERVER Edition" box. I know next to nothing about Macs and portability of binaries, but I could compile it there and stuff the binary, README, and COPYING into a .tar.gz or .zip or something like I did the Windows binary. Does anyone know if I built it on the above mentioned box, if that would be a good binary for general Mac users?


That should work for PPC users -- Ideal would be an option for universal binaries


----------



## FrooBrar

I added the PPC binary to the project download page. I know nothing about Ideal, but I did not find anything on the box with 'locate ideal' so I'm guessing that's not there.


----------



## Lon

FrooBrar said:


> I added the PPC binary to the project download page. I know nothing about Ideal, but I did not find anything on the box with 'locate ideal' so I'm guessing that's not there.


not blaming you!

I just now finished looking over the compile farm docs -- I am surprised that they don't have an intel mac yet.

edit: if they had 10.4.x tools, you should be able to configure for universal binary -- but doesn't look like they do


----------



## Stewie

Wow, finally... nice find and of course karma to the developers. It compiled fine on my 10.3 PB G4 and on our 10.4 G5 iMac. Conversion was also snappy... currently watching an archived Mythbusters, woot!


----------



## rworne

davezatz said:


> Looks like TTG encryption has been cracked.


Yup. Could not have happened to a nicer company.

I tried this supposed XXXX to XXXX XXXX from my TiVo to my XXXX and it worked great.

Did TiVo do something to the USB drivers in this latest release? I'm getting shockingly good transfer rates compared to a few months ago.

Quicktime hates the XXXX, but Mplayer likes it. Things are going to get hopping again for Mac users.


----------



## SnakeEyes

Any other Mac users having their videos opened up in VLC in the wrong aspect ratio? I get a vertically stretched image.


----------



## Lon

SnakeEyes said:


> Any other Mac users having their videos opened up in VLC in the wrong aspect ratio? I get a vertically stretched image.


You can change the viewing aspect ratio in VLC -- look under the Video menu.


----------



## davezatz

v1 of my tutorial/faq is up:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-12/tivotogo-on-your-mac/

Let me know what I got wrong or what might be useful to the world. (Keeping in mind someone will package this nicely in the next few days.)


----------



## EwanG

Actually there is ONE worry. I happen to own a PSP (long story), and Sony is famous for releasing firmware updates that newer games require, and that also break any of the homebrew applications released to that date.

How hard do we think it really is for Tivo to send out a service update that changes the encryption scheme for any new captures?

On the other hand, my personal belief (worth exactly as much as you paid for it), is that now that CableLabs has refused Microsoft's request to have Vista support what is essentially the TivoToGo functionality (you can't play it except to an XBox 360), that you can expect CableLabs to be equally "fair" to Tivo.

If that's the case, then I suspect that TTG support is going to become a minimal priority in future releases, and will probably stop working at some future date that isn't that far off.

FWIW...


----------



## davezatz

EwanG said:


> How hard do we think it really is for Tivo to send out a service update that changes the encryption scheme for any new captures?


I think most of the brains behind TiVoToGo and HME security was Arthur Van Hoff who is no longer with the company. Surely they have contingency plans and surely there are other folks capable of changing the mechanism, but in reality I wonder how big a deal this will be and if TiVo will bother. As far as time frame, remember it took several months before the slowdown issues were resolved so I think we've got some time to enjoy this either way and if they do eventually lock it down, maybe they'll have an official Mac TiVoToGo solution ready at that time.


----------



## TydalForce

I hope this doesn't kill any TTG for Series3 

If TiVo does finally eventually come out with TTG:mac on their own, I'd probably use that over this new trick -- unless, of course, it kept crashing my computer and other unpleasentries


----------



## shelbel

> maybe they'll have an official Mac TiVoToGo solution ready at that time


That gives us 3-4 years 

Many thanks to everyone who's worked on the solution.


----------



## Fofer

davezatz said:


> Looks like TTG encryption has been cracked.


Serves TiVo right. 

Looking forward to seeing even more polished (GUI?) apps come out soon.


----------



## TheSlyBear

FrooBrar, seriously, do you have a PayPal account to accept donations? I'd like to reward your efforts on our behalf.


----------



## TheSlyBear

To those more conversant on the video formats: 

If we use something like VisualHub or ffmpegX to convert the MPEG2 file to DV (so that the video can be imported into iLife programs), what's the chance of quality drop? Would another output format be more suitable?


----------



## TydalForce

There's always a quality drop when you convert from one format to another. I'm not sure what would be a good choice though


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

TydalForce said:



> There's always a quality drop when you convert from one format to another. I'm not sure what would be a good choice though


When iMovie HD works with HDV, it uses the Apple Intermediate Codec. A QuickTime movie encoded with that codec type might be a good first thing to try.


----------



## javabird

davezatz said:


> v1 of my tutorial/faq is up:
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-12/tivotogo-on-your-mac/
> 
> Let me know what I got wrong or what might be useful to the world. (Keeping in mind someone will package this nicely in the next few days.)


Can you add instructions for burning to DVD?


----------



## Savafan1

This works great, it's much better to just download the video files from my network, instead of using the slingplayer when I'm traveling. I just need to work on converting to a smaller file, since my upload speed sucks.


----------



## SnakeEyes

Lon said:


> You can change the viewing aspect ratio in VLC -- look under the Video menu.


Yeah I see that now. I've used VLC for a long time now and never noticed those where there. But it isn't just me right? The videos do open up in odd ARs?


----------



## Savafan1

SnakeEyes said:


> Yeah I see that now. I've used VLC for a long time now and never noticed those where there. But it isn't just me right? The videos do open up in odd ARs?


I had the same thing happen. The screen was stretched vertically. I was just happy that it would play.


----------



## davezatz

javabird said:


> Can you add instructions for burning to DVD?


You can't burn to DVD using Apple's tool until you convert away from MPEG-2. I put some converter suggestions in there, but I'm more of a Windows guy. Does anyone have any other recommendations? Alternately, you could use a third-party tool (which I don't know of) to make DVDs from the MPEG-2. Does anyone know if Popcorn/Toast can handle these files?


----------



## foureyedave19

Wow, what a breakthrough! I was quite excited to put this to the test, but after downloading a show to test, setting up the program and running it through successfully, I found the output file to only be 20 minutes of the 2 hour file! I tried again with the same result, again after redownloding and "make"ing, again today with a different file this time 5 minutes of the 20 minute file, again with the PPC Binaries! I've tried VLC and MPlayer and I can't figure it out. What am I missing? Am I the only one? Help please!


----------



## Fofer

davezatz said:


> You can't burn to DVD using Apple's tool until you convert away from MPEG-2. I put some converter suggestions in there, but I'm more of a Windows guy. Does anyone have any other recommendations? Alternately, you could use a third-party tool (which I don't know of) to make DVDs from the MPEG-2. Does anyone know if Popcorn/Toast can handle these files?


Sizzle used to be able to do so (or at least promised it would)
http://mac.softpedia.com/get/Video/Sizzle-b.shtml

But I think development has stopped; haven't seen an update in forever and the website is 404.


----------



## FrooBrar

foureyedave19 said:


> Wow, what a breakthrough! I was quite excited to put this to the test, but after downloading a show to test, setting up the program and running it through successfully, I found the output file to only be 20 minutes of the 2 hour file! I tried again with the same result, again after redownloding and "make"ing, again today with a different file this time 5 minutes of the 20 minute file, again with the PPC Binaries! I've tried VLC and MPlayer and I can't figure it out. What am I missing? Am I the only one? Help please!


What do the relative sizes of the .TiVo file to the .mpg file look like? The .TiVo file should be just slightly larger than the .mpg (by about a couple KB). If the .TiVo file is significantly larger, something funny is going on. If the size is around 4G, you may be running into large file issues. But 20 minutes sounds like way less than 4G, so...


----------



## foureyedave19

FrooBrar said:


> What do the relative sizes of the .TiVo file to the .mpg file look like? The .TiVo file should be just slightly larger than the .mpg (by about a couple KB). If the .TiVo file is significantly larger, something funny is going on. If the size is around 4G, you may be running into large file issues. But 20 minutes sounds like way less than 4G, so...


They are the relatively the same, for the 2 hour show (actually it may have been 1,5 hours not that that matters) the size was a little over 2gb and the output was the same, give or take a few kb, like you said. So I don't think it is a large file issue. Any other ideas FrooBar? I really appreciate the effort you put into this thing, I want to full enjoy it.


----------



## FrooBrar

foureyedave19 said:


> They are the relatively the same, for the 2 hour show (actually it may have been 1,5 hours not that that matters) the size was a little over 2gb and the output was the same, give or take a few kb, like you said. So I don't think it is a large file issue. Any other ideas FrooBar? I really appreciate the effort you put into this thing, I want to full enjoy it.


I don't really have any other ideas. If the files are about the same size, then all the content should have been written to the MPEG. What program did you use to play it? I know with mplayer at least, if there are bad MPEG packets it will complain to stderr, so maybe try playing it from a terminal and look at the output for complaints.


----------



## pdxkevin

davezatz said:


> v1 of my tutorial/faq is up:
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-12/tivotogo-on-your-mac/
> 
> Let me know what I got wrong or what might be useful to the world. (Keeping in mind someone will package this nicely in the next few days.)


I'd like to shake your hand. A thousand *Thank you*s!

This is very much appreciated.


----------



## TheSlyBear

davezatz said:


> Does anyone know if Popcorn/Toast can handle these files?


Yes. Toast Titanium handles the files without a hitch.


----------



## mpauley

I have a Mactel version to post if its ok with FrooBrar


----------



## Fofer

mpauley said:


> I have a Mactel version to post if its ok with FrooBrar


Yay! Please. And thanks.


----------



## davezatz

bootedbear said:


> Yes. Toast Titanium handles the files without a hitch.


Awesome, I'll put this up somewhere tomorrow.


----------



## Lon

For those looking for non-toast ways to make a dvd: you can use ffmpegX to prepare files that can be used to author a dvd with Apple's Disk Utility app.

tutorial is here: http://www.ffmpegx.com/dvd_sub.html

It includes a discussion of subtitles but you can skip those parts.


----------



## Fofer

bootedbear said:


> Yes. Toast Titanium handles the files without a hitch.


When you say "without a hitch," please clarify. Does it need to re-encode the files before burning, or does it accept the MPEG-2 format as-is, and burn it to a playable DVD?

I guess you could tell by the time it takes to burn...


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Fofer said:


> When you say "without a hitch," please clarify. Does it need to re-encode the files before burning, or does it accept the MPEG-2 format as-is, and burn it to a playable DVD?
> 
> I guess you could tell by the time it takes to burn...


That might depend on the file. TiVo MPEG from a non-DVD TiVo _could_ be in the wrong format to burn to a "proper" DVD, either because it has the wrong resolution or because of GOP length issues.


----------



## FrooBrar

mpauley said:


> I have a Mactel version to post if its ok with FrooBrar


It's fine with me, but you don't need my permission, it is a BSD open source license, you can pretty much do what you want with it.

I put in a request with the sourceforge people to install a version of development tools on their PPC Mac compile farm host that support cross-compiling and universal binaries. I will see how that goes.


----------



## FrooBrar

I have seen that someone has put together an "Automator workflow" and intel binary to ease using the software. Sorry for my lack of Mac know-how and inability to test this or even really understand what this means. Is it some sort of GUI, or what?

http://www.geocities.com/kyoutekia/


----------



## TydalForce

Automator is essentially an easy to work with "macro" system
Basically, if you repeat the same several steps over and over again, Automator helps automate that process
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/automator/ if you're curious


----------



## mojoe2013

I am sorry everyone. I have honestly ready all the posts, read the "how to guide" over on Zatz, but still can't figure out how to compile the Tivo Decode files. 

I installed XCode, but need a dummy how-to on how to compile the files once in XCode. 

I know I need to do it through Terminal, but is that through XCode?

I hope I am not the only one having this problem and hopefully someone will be really nice and throw something together for the rest of us. 

Thank you!!!!!!!


----------



## TydalForce

open Terminal
navigate to the folder you've expanded to
type: 
make

A folder called objects.dir will be created. navigate to that folder
run the tivodecode commands as dedscribed elsewhere

note: to change directories, use the cd command
cd /Users/yourusername/Desktop/tivodecode-0.1.3/

or something like that; depending on where you extract things.


----------



## mojoe2013

so i open terminal, then drag the "tivodecode-0.1.3" folder into the window to create the path.

then i hit "return" and get the message that it is a directory.

then i type "make" (with no quotes)

i get the message "*** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop."

what am i doing wrong? again, i am sorry everyone, but really appreciate the help! i can't wait to play with this!


----------



## TydalForce

is there a file called "makefile" in your tivodecode-0.1.3 folder?

It might be worth... . trash that folder, and re-extract it from the tar.gz file you downloaded

I wonder if there's a particular component of XCode Tools that you need to make sure you've installed. 

Hey, what version of OS X? And are you on PPC or Intel?


----------



## TheSlyBear

Fofer said:


> When you say "without a hitch," please clarify. Does it need to re-encode the files before burning, or does it accept the MPEG-2 format as-is, and burn it to a playable DVD?
> 
> I guess you could tell by the time it takes to burn...


It accepts the files dropped onto it with no problem. I think it may have done some re-encoding when writing the disk image or burning.

But I only tried it on a small file as a proof of concept. Tomorrow, I may have a chance to try a larger test.


----------



## Unix_Beard

mojoe2013 said:


> I am sorry everyone. I have honestly ready all the posts, read the "how to guide" over on Zatz, but still can't figure out how to compile the Tivo Decode files.
> 
> I installed XCode, but need a dummy how-to on how to compile the files once in XCode.
> 
> I know I need to do it through Terminal, but is that through XCode?
> 
> I hope I am not the only one having this problem and hopefully someone will be really nice and throw something together for the rest of us.
> 
> Thank you!!!!!!!


Where is the 'tivodecode-0.1.3' folder? If its on the Desktop, do this in Terminal (don't drag anything. just type):

1. Open Terminal. It should say something similar to:



Code:


Last login: Sat Nov 25 18:24:41 on ttyp1
Welcome to Darwin!
mojoe2013:~ mojoe2013 $

2. Change to the tivo-decoder directory of source code. Type:



Code:


cd Desktop/tivodecode-0.1.3

3. For kicks, type:



Code:


pwd

It should say /Users/mojoe2013/Desktop/tivodecode-0.1.3 where 'mojoe2013' is the name of your username on your Mac. If it says that, then go to step 4

4. Type:



Code:


make

It should do a bunch of stuff and finally stop, returning to the prompt. If it doesn't, then xcode probably isn't installed.

5. After the successful make, you can run it. A new folder will be inside the tivodecode-0.1.3 folder called objects.dir. You only need to know this because thats where the newly created file called 'tivodecode' is and thats why you run it by typing:



Code:


./objects.dir/tivodecode --verbose --mak 99999999 --out /Users/mojoe2013/Desktop/JonStewart.mpg  /Users/mojoe2013/Desktop/JonStewart.tivo

Where 99999999 is your MAK. The above command will take the JonStewart.tivo file on the Desktop and make the DRM-free JonStewart.mpg and place it on the Desktop.


----------



## foureyedave19

mojoe2013 said:


> so i open terminal, then drag the "tivodecode-0.1.3" folder into the window to create the path.
> 
> then i hit "return" and get the message that it is a directory.
> 
> then i type "make" (with no quotes)
> 
> i get the message "*** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop."
> 
> what am i doing wrong? again, i am sorry everyone, but really appreciate the help! i can't wait to play with this!


It sounds like you are missing the "cd " before the directory drag



Code:


cd /Users/User_Name_Here/Desktop/tivodecode-0.1.3/


----------



## Unix_Beard

mojoe2013 said:


> so i open terminal, then drag the "tivodecode-0.1.3" folder into the window to create the path.
> 
> then i hit "return" and get the message that it is a directory.
> 
> then i type "make" (with no quotes)
> 
> i get the message "*** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop."
> 
> what am i doing wrong? again, i am sorry everyone, but really appreciate the help! i can't wait to play with this!


Dragging the folder just inserts the path of the folder. Its not telling Terminal to do anything. Hitting enter and getting the "just a directory" message is Terminal saying "yeah, so....its just a directory." What you want to do is type "cd " (no quotes) and then drag in the folder and hit enter. Terminal will then "change into" that tivo directory. Then you can do the make and blah blah...


----------



## Lon

mojoe2013 said:


> so i open terminal, then drag the "tivodecode-0.1.3" folder into the window to create the path.


type "cd " (that is a space following the cd) before you drag the folder to the terminal window


----------



## mojoe2013

well, i made some progress. see below:

aurora:~ My_User_Name$ cd Desktop/tivodecode-0.1.3
aurora:~/Desktop/tivodecode-0.1.3 hallaux$ make
mkdir -p objects.dir
gcc -Wall -O3 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -c -o objects.dir/hexlib.o hexlib.c
gcc -Wall -O3 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -c -o objects.dir/TuringFast.o TuringFast.c
gcc -Wall -O3 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -c -o objects.dir/sha1.o sha1.c
gcc -Wall -O3 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -c -o objects.dir/tivo-parse.o tivo-parse.c
gcc -Wall -O3 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -c -o objects.dir/happyfile.o happyfile.c
gcc -Wall -O3 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -c -o objects.dir/turing_stream.o turing_stream.c
gcc -Wall -O3 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -c -o objects.dir/tivodecode.o tivodecode.c
gcc -Wall -O3 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -c -o objects.dir/getopt.o getopt.c
gcc -Wall -O3 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -c -o objects.dir/getopt_long.o getopt_long.c
gcc -o objects.dir/tivodecode objects.dir/hexlib.o objects.dir/TuringFast.o objects.dir/sha1.o objects.dir/tivo-parse.o objects.dir/happyfile.o objects.dir/turing_stream.o objects.dir/tivodecode.o objects.dir/getopt.o objects.dir/getopt_long.o
ld: can't locate file for: -lcrt1.o
make: *** [objects.dir/tivodecode] Error 1
aurora:~/Desktop/tivodecode-0.1.3 My_User_Name$

my concern is with the second to last line that says "Error 1"

i then tried: ./objects.dir/tivodecode --verbose --mak 99999999 --out /Users/MY_USER_NAME/Desktop/JonStewart.mpg /Users/MY_USER_NAME/Desktop/JonStewart.tivo

and get the error: No such file or directory

i went into the actual object.dir folder and the file that is supposed to read "tivodecode" ends in ".o" along with the rest of the files in that folder.

am i the only one having these problems?

i tried trashing everything and starting over from the very begining. had the same results listed above.

i tried erasing the ".o" at the end of all the files in the object.dir folder and get "Permission Denied"

thoughts?


----------



## FrooBrar

mojoe2013 said:


> well, i made some progress. see below:
> ld: can't locate file for: -lcrt1.o


This is an interesting error. It looks like the development tools are not completely installed, or not correctly installed. As I have said before, I am not a Mac user, so I don't know why this would happen or what to do to fix it, but this is a linker error trying to link against the startup stubs for libc. AFAIK, this should not happen. Any Mac guru out there know how gcc can end up installed on a box and not know where to find a critical libc development file?



mojoe2013 said:


> i tried erasing the ".o" at the end of all the files in the object.dir folder and get "Permission Denied"


That's not going to work, the program needs to be linked.

If you are using PPC, there is a binary on the sourceforge site now. If you are using Intel, someone on this forum has said that they have a binary, or you could try grabbing the one from here (http://www.geocities.com/kyoutekia/) if you don't mind it being 0.1.2, which does not support dvd-burning TiVos.


----------



## cwoody222

This is all very cool. Serves TiVo right.

Too bad (well, not really) I have a Series3 now.


----------



## chiefted

FrooBar,

Even though I am using a PPC iMac (G4, 2g ram, 250 hd, 10.4.8), I downloaded the uncompiled version.

Installed the Xcode tools.

Made the file.

Downloaded using the tivo built in web server/site, downloaded (which was the longest part), ran tivodecode using the instruction posted at zatsnotfunny site.

TOUCHDOWN!  

Video ran perfectly in VLC. I did try to open it in democracy but I think with democracy it runs into the same problem as Quicktime where the audio and video aren't on the same time line so all you get is audio but no video (just what appears to be a screen shot). I haven't tried burning it to a DVD using either Toast or Disco yet, will try that tonight. 

Oh couple side notes, what I did since I am using the program Path Finder on my mac is that I can open a Terminal window that will path (cd) right to the appropriate directory. I can then cut and paste the command right to terminal, including the MAK, type in the file name I want with the .mpg tag, and then drag drop the Tivo file. Also since this is a command, I found that it doesn't like spaces in the name of the file. I had to rename the original file to get it to work right.


----------



## chiefted

mojoe2013



mojoe2013 said:


> well, i made some progress. see below:
> 
> aurora:~ My_User_Name$ cd Desktop/tivodecode-0.1.3
> aurora:~/Desktop/tivodecode-0.1.3 hallaux$ make
> mkdir -p objects.dir


I compiled the program myself but I didn't have to make the directory objects.dir

When I compiled I am pretty sure it did that on its own or...the more I think about that, the objects.dir directory was already there before running make.

Did you have to create the directory or am I just suffering from lack of coffee this morning.


----------



## [email protected]

Can somebody give idot-proof how-to-install galleon (if that's the best option for pulling off of a Tivo Series2 box onto a Mac). I am totally lost here... on step one.


----------



## mrsimon

I too am having troubles installing Galleon for Mac OS X. Is there a thread that discusses the Mac and Galleon in detail?

Thanks,
mr.simon


----------



## Quevar

Download the file here:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/galleon/galleon-unix-2.3.0.zip?download

Instructions are here:
http://galleon.tv/content/view/92/51/

Basically, unzip the file and go into the directory galleon/bin and type "chmod a+x *.sh", then "./run.sh" to run the server and "./gui.sh" to setup the server. I just set it up, but I'm not at home, so I don't know if it can actually connect and do anything yet. Make sure to check your firewall and make sure the ports are open.


----------



## cwoody222

Isn't there still a Mac Bundle for the current version of Galleon? That greatly eased the install and start-up of Galleon each time on the Mac.

It basically, after a one-time setup, gave you a Galleon dock icon to click to start Galleon every time.

Search for "galleon mac bundle" either here or google.

I know there were issues every time Galleon updated, though... not sure if the bundles kept up.


----------



## timg

This is what I've been using with Galleon (although I haven't updated to 2.3.0).
Works great and makes it double-clickable.

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/19643


----------



## cwoody222

timg said:


> This is what I've been using with Galleon (although I haven't updated to 2.3.0).
> Works great and makes it double-clickable.
> 
> http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/19643


Yep, that's what I was thinking of.

I think there was a way to change something rather easily to get it to work with updated versions of Galleon. I think I did that back in the 1.6 / 1.8 days instead of waiting for an downloading the bundle all over.


----------



## Quevar

Just ran across this and thought people might find this useful:
http://www.macgeekery.com/hacks/software/video/how_to_view_tivo_recordings_on_your_mac_or_ipod

This is a pretty cool automated way to get video off a TiVo and onto your iPod or into iTunes.


----------



## Rosincrans

For those who would rather use a widget to download the Tivo files.

http://www.dashboardwidgets.com/showcase/details.php?wid=281


----------



## july1962

I followed these directions, but when I type "make" I get this:

"-bash: make: command not found"

What am I doing wrong? 



Unix_Beard said:


> Where is the 'tivodecode-0.1.3' folder? If its on the Desktop, do this in Terminal (don't drag anything. just type):
> 
> 1. Open Terminal. It should say something similar to:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Last login: Sat Nov 25 18:24:41 on ttyp1
> Welcome to Darwin!
> mojoe2013:~ mojoe2013 $
> 
> 2. Change to the tivo-decoder directory of source code. Type:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> cd Desktop/tivodecode-0.1.3
> 
> 3. For kicks, type:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> pwd
> 
> It should say /Users/mojoe2013/Desktop/tivodecode-0.1.3 where 'mojoe2013' is the name of your username on your Mac. If it says that, then go to step 4
> 
> 4. Type:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> make
> 
> It should do a bunch of stuff and finally stop, returning to the prompt. If it doesn't, then xcode probably isn't installed.
> 
> 5. After the successful make, you can run it. A new folder will be inside the tivodecode-0.1.3 folder called objects.dir. You only need to know this because thats where the newly created file called 'tivodecode' is and thats why you run it by typing:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> ./objects.dir/tivodecode --verbose --mak 99999999 --out /Users/mojoe2013/Desktop/JonStewart.mpg  /Users/mojoe2013/Desktop/JonStewart.tivo
> 
> Where 99999999 is your MAK. The above command will take the JonStewart.tivo file on the Desktop and make the DRM-free JonStewart.mpg and place it on the Desktop.


----------



## timg

More than likely you don't have the Developer Tools installed.


----------



## foureyedave19

FrooBrar said:


> I don't really have any other ideas. If the files are about the same size, then all the content should have been written to the MPEG. What program did you use to play it? I know with mplayer at least, if there are bad MPEG packets it will complain to stderr, so maybe try playing it from a terminal and look at the output for complaints.


 Wow, Apperantly I had a bad install of mplayer, becasue upon a fresh install the file worked fine. Something is just up with my copy of VLC, it cuts out major chunks of the show. It isn't the first 5 minutes, it is serval cutscenes of the 30 minute show that timed out to about 5 minutes.


----------



## mrsimon

Thanks for all the help guys! Galleon is now working *mostly* like a charm, and since this has started there's now an AppleScript available at versiontracker to do the .tivo conversion for you!

-mr.simon


----------



## davezatz

mrsimon said:


> there's now an AppleScript available at versiontracker to do the .tivo conversion for you


Has anyone tried it? I haven't yet. One of my readers said it crapped out on him.


----------



## mrsimon

Just tried it. Fast and friendly. 

I think you have to "run" it once to enter your MAK. From there it's a droplet, just drag-and-drop your .tivo files onto the script. no need to launch anything.

mr.simon


----------



## abobrow

This whole development is so awesome, and it makes me wonder: Doesn't this basically mean that Tivo could have their own version of TTG Mac up and running in a matter of days? I mean, it's open source. What's left for Tivo to do other than wrap it up in a nice preference pane? For that matter, why didn't they do this? I'm not saying it was easy, but Tivo gave us the impression that it was impossible.


----------



## cwoody222

Because they don't care.


----------



## davezatz

abobrow said:


> Doesn't this basically mean that Tivo could have their own version of TTG Mac up and running in a matter of days? I mean, it's open source. What's left for Tivo to do other than wrap it up in a nice preference pane? For that matter, why didn't they do this? I'm not saying it was easy, but Tivo gave us the impression that it was impossible.


It's very easy. They knew the encryption and decryption pieces and if it can be encrypted on Linux (TiVo) it can be decrypted on *nix (Mac). The delay is that TiVo wants to keep the files encrypted when not in use, so they have to build some sort of blackbox to keep it locked down. Also they've probably had many debates on what to use as a player and/or to convert the files since standard Apple software will not handle these MPEG-2s. I'm not as pessimistic as Woody, but I do think this functionality is lower priority than some other initiatives (like selling ads).


----------



## Fofer

abobrow said:


> This whole development is so awesome, and it makes me wonder: Doesn't this basically mean that Tivo could have their own version of TTG Mac up and running in a matter of days? I mean, it's open source. What's left for Tivo to do other than wrap it up in a nice preference pane? For that matter, why didn't they do this? I'm not saying it was easy, but Tivo gave us the impression that it was impossible.


No, no, no. TiVo (technically) could have "developed" this a long time ago; after all they hold the "keys" to the decryption in the first place. I'm sure one of the big things holding Mac development up, IMHO, was the intricacies of creating the "DRM wrapper" to keep the content and copyright protected. That proved more difficult that TiVo had hoped (the Windows app uses Microsoft DRM, not available on the Mac platform.)

It wasn't about the tech aspects of extraction, or playback... it was about encryption and DRM responsibility.

That said, TiVo had other priorities (to quote cwoody222, "They don't care.") And as always, the chips fell where they may, and users took matters into their own hands.

Good for us.


----------



## Fofer

davezatz said:


> since standard Apple software will not handle these MPEG-2s.


I know I've asked this before and I still don't understand the answer. When you say "standard Apple software" are you referring to the fact that the QuickTime MPEG-2 plug in is an add-on? Again, the only reason I ask is, when I extract video (from a hacked DirecTiVo and TiVoTool, natch), I can play the video back perfectly (and I mean, _perfectly_, no glitches, no A/V sync issues at all,) all in QuickTime Player. Of course I have Apple MPEG-2 plug-in installed. Still, that's a small price to pay ($20?) for the functionality.

Sorry to belabor this question, but I still don't grok it completely. Please, if you will, break it down for me like I'm a 5-year-old.


----------



## Puppy76

They don't care.

This is proof of what I said before, that they could have created their own app (out of open source pieces mostly even) that decrypted the stream and fed it to an integrated player. It wouldn't have given full functionality, but it would have let you watch shows on your Mac, which would be good enough for lots of people, and certainly better than nothing.

But yeah, they don't care. It's too hard


----------



## cwoody222

Puppy76 said:


> They don't care.


Hey - that's my line


----------



## Fofer

Puppy76 said:


> This is proof of what I said before, that they could have created their own app (out of open source pieces mostly even) that decrypted the stream and fed it to an integrated player. It wouldn't have given full functionality, but it would have let you watch shows on your Mac, which would be good enough for lots of people, and certainly better than nothing.


What about the DRM, restricting the playback to customers' authorized computers? Remember, Windows TTG uses DRM from Microsoft in the PC media player (which isn't available on the Mac platform.) This doesn't "prove" that TiVo could have created their own app; it simply shows that users got frustrated with the delay enough to work out a way around the encryption. We have no responsibility to add DRM, we just want to watch the video on our Macs, after all.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Fofer said:


> I know I've asked this before and I still don't understand the answer. When you say "standard Apple software" are you referring to the fact that the QuickTime MPEG-2 plug in is an add-on? Again, the only reason I ask is, when I extract video (from a hacked DirecTiVo and TiVoTool, natch), I can play the video back perfectly (and I mean, _perfectly_, no glitches, no A/V sync issues at all,) all in QuickTime Player. Of course I have Apple MPEG-2 plug-in installed. Still, that's a small price to pay ($20?) for the functionality.
> 
> Sorry to belabor this question, but I still don't grok it completely. Please, if you will, break it down for me like I'm a 5-year-old.


While you're right that this was "about encryption and DRM responsibility" what they have on Windows isn't Windows _DRM_ (as tivodecode itself demonstrates). It's that they packaged it as a DirectShow filter (the equivalent on the Mac would actually be one or more QuickTime components.) Windows Media DRM doesn't enter into it.

As far as "why does TiVoTool work?" - Apple's MPEG-2 components support some MPEG stream types but not others. Since TiVoTool has to convert the tystreams into something, it just converts into one of the stream types the components support, presumably (I've never peeked at the output of TiVoTool.) Even the stream types that Apple supports have some issues, although a lot of people who make MPEG tools for the Mac understand them and can avoid them.

People haven't been able to play MPEG-2 decrypted using tivodecode using Apple's MPEG-2 plug ins (because the encrypted stream type isn't supported by Apple's components), but even that isn't the root of the issue. Because TiVo wanted to write a QuickTime component that just did the decryption, they'd need to get themselves injected between things being read from disk and Apple's MPEG-2 codecs, which aren't documented as part of the QuickTime API.

Apple's MPEG-2 components include a movie importer component (which takes the file on disk, says "hey, this is MPEG", and builds a QuickTime movie in memory using their MPEG-2 codecs (which handle decompression of the data) and, IIRC, a media handler component specific to MPEG-2 (this is the thing closest to the "getting stuff off disk" part, although it's likely a shim around the real component accessing the disk.). All Apple-provided, but undocumented, components, with explicit knowledge of one another. Combine that with the stream type that's been encrypted apparently being a type that Apple's components don't grok, and they'd certainly need some help from Apple to get things done in a supportable manner.

They might be able to do it without Apple by writing their own importer component and their own media handler components (or, by skipping Apple's MPEG-2 components entirely and writing their own, which I'd note took Apple themselves quite a long time.) Not an insignificant amount of work, and it's certainly not something that very many Mac developers would have experience doing (most Mac developers who work with QuickTime don't do it from "underneath" like this, unless they write codecs or support video grabbing/video output hardware.)

OK, so maybe you'll grok that if you're a _really_ technical five year old.


----------



## davezatz

Wow I was going to respond to the Windows non-DRM and the MPEG-2 thing, but Dennis did it much better than I could of. Thanks!


----------



## abobrow

Fofer said:


> TiVo (technically) could have "developed" this a long time ago; after all they hold the "keys" to the decryption in the first place. I'm sure one of the big things holding Mac development up, IMHO, was the intricacies of creating the "DRM wrapper" to keep the content and copyright protected. That proved more difficult that TiVo had hoped (the Windows app uses Microsoft DRM, not available on the Mac platform.)


Yes, good point.

Although, just thinking out loud. The Windows DRM wasn't strong, just annoying enough to thwart grandma. It was a matter of weeks before they figured out the DirecShow Dump solution. So isn't there some similar weak DRM already available for Quicktime? Heck, now Fairplay has been reverse engineered, so they could use that.

Ah, just read the big post about MPEG2, so I see what they're saying. Tivo would have to bundle VLC, which I suppose they don't want to do.


----------



## Fofer

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> OK, so maybe you'll grok that if you're a _really_ technical five year old.


  Thanks, that'll do just fine. :up:


----------



## mojoe2013

i finally got it! thank you everyone! 

what i did was went in and uninstalled XCode. i was had actually installed an older version of XCode from a couple of OS's ago. this time i used the one that came with tiger (duh!)

but everything works now!

please note that i am watching The Simpsons on my mac in the back of our companies shuttle as we drive by the Tivo headquarters. it is very satisfying.


----------



## peternelson

I've got TivoDecode working on OSX (PPC) - and I'm able to play the MPEG files in VLC (although VLC thinks the files are much shorter than they really are, which causes crashes if I 'scrub' through the file). I've also testing burning them to a DVD with Toast7 (which seems to work well).

Any suggestions on how to edit the MPEG files from TioDecode? I see MPEG editors available that require the QuickTime MPEG playback component - so I'm guessing that won't work with these MPEG files?


----------



## Rosincrans

peternelson said:


> I've got TivoDecode working on OSX (PPC) - and I'm able to play the MPEG files in VLC (although VLC thinks the files are much shorter than they really are, which causes crashes if I 'scrub' through the file). I've also testing burning them to a DVD with Toast7 (which seems to work well).
> 
> Any suggestions on how to edit the MPEG files from TioDecode? I see MPEG editors available that require the QuickTime MPEG playback component - so I'm guessing that won't work with these MPEG files?


You can use ffmpegx to convert the file to a more managable format. I don't think there's any noticeable quality loss.


----------



## e30mpower

peternelson said:


> I've got TivoDecode working on OSX (PPC) - and I'm able to play the MPEG files in VLC (although VLC thinks the files are much shorter than they really are, which causes crashes if I 'scrub' through the file). I've also testing burning them to a DVD with Toast7 (which seems to work well).
> 
> Any suggestions on how to edit the MPEG files from TioDecode? I see MPEG editors available that require the QuickTime MPEG playback component - so I'm guessing that won't work with these MPEG files?


 Back in the old days when I had to use Virtual PC and DirectShow Dump to get an MPEG file from TiVo, I couldn't edit it in QuickTime even though I had QuickTime Pro and the MPEG2 Extension. It just wouldn't read it. I even broke out an old Power Mac G3 and Final Cut Pro (version 1) to try to edit out commercials but couldn't get it to work. So if you find a relatively simple way to edit (by simple I mean "Mac simple," i.e., drag and drop a selection to the trash), let me know.


----------



## swingline

peternelson said:


> ... I've also testing burning them to a DVD with Toast7 (which seems to work well).


I've tried burning with Toast 6 and I'm getting audio sync issue (about 1 sec out, consistently from beg. to end.) The mpeg that came out of tivodecoder plays fine, in sync. Anyone seeing this with Toast?

Also it took Toast almost 15 hours to encode the mpeg. I'm on a 17" PB 1.67 w/ 2GB Ram. Is that a normal amount of time?


----------



## Fofer

e30mpower said:


> Back in the old days when I had to use Virtual PC and DirectShow Dump to get an MPEG file from TiVo, I couldn't edit it in QuickTime even though I had QuickTime Pro and the MPEG2 Extension. It just wouldn't read it. I even broke out an old Power Mac G3 and Final Cut Pro (version 1) to try to edit out commercials but couldn't get it to work. So if you find a relatively simple way to edit (by simple I mean "Mac simple," i.e., drag and drop a selection to the trash), let me know.


Edit MPEG files using QuickTime Player Pro: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20040213203637547

MPEG Streamclip: http://www.squared5.com/


----------



## Fofer

swingline said:


> Also it took Toast almost 15 hours to encode the mpeg.


 

I was afraid of that.


----------



## johnnylundy

I can confirm all the above.

- the .mpeg-2 files produced by the tivodecode binary won't play in QT Player, EVEN if you purchase the Apple MPEG-2 component.

- the MPEG-2 output of tivodecode WILL play in VLC, and you can use VLC's command-line to convert them to .mp4.

- you can pass the MPEG-2 file through iSquint (which is really an ffmpeg front-end) to make .mp4 files which WILL play on QT Player.

- I whipped up a GUI in Cocoa (AppleScript Studio) which will use tivodecode to process the .tivo files if anybody wants it.

- now I need to find out why my new USB 2.0 wireless adapter for my Series 2 (540) TiVo is giving me less than a third of the transfer speed of the USB 1.1 adapter I replaced (USB 2=150 KB/sec; USB 1.1= 360 KB/sec).

Cheers and Happy Holidays to all

Johnny


----------



## davezatz

swingline said:


> Also it took Toast almost 15 hours to encode the mpeg. I'm on a 17" PB 1.67 w/ 2GB Ram. Is that a normal amount of time?


I haven't tried it yet, but these times are often dependent on what your incoming and outgoing quality and resolutions are. I would imagine it could be done MUCH faster. Can anyone confirm?


----------



## Fofer

johnnylundy said:


> I whipped up a GUI in Cocoa (AppleScript Studio) which will use tivodecode to process the .tivo files if anybody wants it.


Yes please.


----------



## TheSlyBear

davezatz said:


> I haven't tried it yet, but these times are often dependent on what your incoming and outgoing quality and resolutions are. I would imagine it could be done MUCH faster. Can anyone confirm?


Hmm, I used Toast Titanium 7 on a 2GHZ MacBook Pro (with 2G ram) to create a DVD-R of a 20-minute decoded clip and it took less than an hour. I haven't had time to play with it since but will try to set aside some time this evening.


----------



## chiefted

Fofer said:


> Edit MPEG files using QuickTime Player Pro: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20040213203637547
> 
> MPEG Streamclip: http://www.squared5.com/


Tried this last night and for some reason MPEG Streamclip won't let me edit them.

I get the static video (like a screen shot) but I do get audio.

Do I have to convert it first?


----------



## Fofer

I don't know, to tell you the truth, I haven't tried this workflow yet. But I was aware of the program's "promise" and figured I'd suggest it to the collective discussion.


----------



## johnnylundy

Fofer said:


> Yes please.


http://homepage.mac.com/johnnylundy/

It's at the bottom of the list titled "TiVo File Decoder".

Enter your MAK and hit Tab to make it accept it.

Then click the "Open TiVo File" button and navigate to where the .tivo file is and select it.

Then click "Convert To MPEG-2".

It will name the output file the same as the input, with ".mpeg" added to the end.

Cancelling will delete the (incomplete) output file.

LET ME KNOW OF ANY BUGS. I tested it but it has not had a lot of workout.

This does not install any files except one Preference file containing the MAK so you do not have to keep re-entering it. That file is

~/Library/Preferences/com.jlsoftware.tivoFileDecoder.plist

and can be deleted at any time.

To "uninstall", just drag the application to the Trash.


----------



## HIHZia

Don't know if anyone's seen this yet.

http://thebenesch.com/tdm/

It's suppposed to be an all in one transfer decode gui.

I'm going to try it at home tonight but if anyone gets to it sooner I'd like to hear about it.


----------



## Fofer

johnnylundy said:


> http://homepage.mac.com/johnnylundy/
> 
> It's at the bottom of the list titled "TiVo File Decoder".


Thanks for sharing this, johnnylundy!


----------



## peternelson

swingline said:


> I've tried burning with Toast 6 and I'm getting audio sync issue (about 1 sec out, consistently from beg. to end.) The mpeg that came out of tivodecoder plays fine, in sync. Anyone seeing this with Toast?
> 
> Also it took Toast almost 15 hours to encode the mpeg. I'm on a 17" PB 1.67 w/ 2GB Ram. Is that a normal amount of time?


I've made two DVDs so far with Toast7 on a 1GHz eMac G4 with 768 meg RAM. Nothing took close to 15 hours. The first DVD contained about an hour (2 half-hour shows recorded at medium quality - each file about 600meg), and I had Toast7 set to encode at it's highest quality. The MPEG files were re-encoded, but it didn't take too long - although I walked away from the computer for a while, so I don't know exactly how long it took. An hour, maybe? I realized my mistake when I ended up with a DVD that was just under 2.5 gig, which is about twice the size of the source files!. That disc played fine in my home DVD player.

I made a second DVD last night with Toast7 set to "never encode". I had about 3 hours of shows (6 half-hour shows recorded at medium quality - each file about 600meg). The process was much faster. It went right to multiplexing, and it took well under an hour to make a disc image. (maybe 30 minutes? I wasn't timing it...) I haven't burned that disc image to a DVD to see if it plays in my DVD player yet - but I was able to mount the disc image in my eMac and play it with the "DVD Player" application.


----------



## superdlux

HIHZia said:


> Don't know if anyone's seen this yet.
> 
> http://thebenesch.com/tdm/
> 
> It's suppposed to be an all in one transfer decode gui.
> 
> I'm going to try it at home tonight but if anyone gets to it sooner I'd like to hear about it.


I'm trying it now it looks great!


----------



## jdbastin

HIHZia said:


> Don't know if anyone's seen this yet.
> 
> It's suppposed to be an all in one transfer decode gui.
> 
> I'm going to try it at home tonight but if anyone gets to it sooner I'd like to hear about it.


It works perfectly on my Intel Mac. Very well done.

BTW, to any Linux users out there, I was able to stream video off of the Tivo perfectly using the mplayer pipe command that was posted previously. I am running Fedora 5 on that machine.


----------



## HIHZia

superdlux said:


> I'm trying it now it looks great!


What machine are you using?

I'm on a 1.2 Ghz G4 10.3.9


----------



## superdlux

G4 933 10.4.7, 1.5g Ram


----------



## HIHZia

Not having any luck. I'm getting this Applescript error. Can anyone translate?

curl: option --digest is unknown
curl: try 'curl --help' for more information (2


----------



## timg

That message means that your version of curl doesn't support that command line option. You need to update curl to a newer version.

Are you running 10.3.9?


----------



## jblake

johnnylundy said:


> http://homepage.mac.com/johnnylundy/
> 
> It's at the bottom of the list titled "TiVo File Decoder".
> 
> Enter your MAK and hit Tab to make it accept it.
> 
> Then click the "Open TiVo File" button and navigate to where the .tivo file is and select it.
> 
> Then click "Convert To MPEG-2".
> 
> It will name the output file the same as the input, with ".mpeg" added to the end.
> 
> Cancelling will delete the (incomplete) output file.
> 
> LET ME KNOW OF ANY BUGS. I tested it but it has not had a lot of workout.
> 
> This does not install any files except one Preference file containing the MAK so you do not have to keep re-entering it. That file is
> 
> ~/Library/Preferences/com.jlsoftware.tivoFileDecoder.plist
> 
> and can be deleted at any time.
> 
> To "uninstall", just drag the application to the Trash.


That's awesome. Any chance that you will release the source?


----------



## HIHZia

timg said:


> That message means that your version of curl doesn't support that command line option. You need to update curl to a newer version.
> 
> Are you running 10.3.9?


Yes. How do I update curl? What is curl?


----------



## timg

curl is the program that actually downloads the video from your Tivo.

I know the curl version in 10.4.8 works, so you could upgrade to 10.4 ...

If you didn't want to do that, you could try this:

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/13445


----------



## Rangers4me

I'm trying to use Tivo Decode Manager on 10.4.8, but I get the following errors:

line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching '
line 4: syntax error: unexpected end of file (2)

This occurs both when I manually put in the IP of the TiVo or choose My TiVo from the drop downlist.


----------



## westside_guy

Be sure to upgrade to the latest version 1.1.2 of TivoDecode Manager - it was just posted this afternoon.

This is GREAT!!


----------



## javabird

I've been trying this and so far it works great (Powerbook G4 with 10.4.8). Thanks!
I noticed I have to manually quit after each file is converted. It would be nice to either have it quit automatically, or have the option to decode another file (the choice is grayed out after decoding 1 file).



johnnylundy said:


> http://homepage.mac.com/johnnylundy/
> 
> It's at the bottom of the list titled "TiVo File Decoder".
> 
> Enter your MAK and hit Tab to make it accept it.
> 
> Then click the "Open TiVo File" button and navigate to where the .tivo file is and select it.
> 
> Then click "Convert To MPEG-2".
> 
> It will name the output file the same as the input, with ".mpeg" added to the end.
> 
> Cancelling will delete the (incomplete) output file.
> 
> LET ME KNOW OF ANY BUGS. I tested it but it has not had a lot of workout.
> 
> This does not install any files except one Preference file containing the MAK so you do not have to keep re-entering it. That file is
> 
> ~/Library/Preferences/com.jlsoftware.tivoFileDecoder.plist
> 
> and can be deleted at any time.
> 
> To "uninstall", just drag the application to the Trash.


----------



## schalliol

TiVo Decode Manager seems to work great. Does anyone know if there's an easy way to take the MPEG files generated by the program and send them straight to DVD w/o having to recode them?


----------



## Fofer

schalliol said:


> TiVo Decode Manager seems to work great. Does anyone know if there's an easy way to take the MPEG files generated by the program and send them straight to DVD w/o having to recode them?


peternelson posted above about using Toast 7 to burn, and having set the option to "never encode:"



> I made a second DVD last night with Toast7 set to "never encode". I had about 3 hours of shows (6 half-hour shows recorded at medium quality - each file about 600meg). The process was much faster. It went right to multiplexing, and it took well under an hour to make a disc image. (maybe 30 minutes? I wasn't timing it...) I haven't burned that disc image to a DVD to see if it plays in my DVD player yet - but I was able to mount the disc image in my eMac and play it with the "DVD Player" application.


So I'm curious to hear how a burned disk that way works in a standalone DVD player.

However, I'm pretty sure these extracted files have a different resolution, from the standard DVD spec. So the re-encoding process actually brings them within compatibility for more DVD Players. I guess the point I am trying to make is, not all DVD Players would be happy with a disk created by MPEG's not completely compatible. What works on one player might not work on another.

I think the re-encoding mitigates that risk?


----------



## schalliol

DVD Players play MPEG-2, so I wouldn't think there should be a problem. However, I do have difficulties playing some MPEG-2 files (like these) through QuickTime.


----------



## Fofer

schalliol said:


> DVD Players play MPEG-2, so I wouldn't think there should be a problem.


All MPEG-2 files are not created equal, though. TiVo Series 2 records in a 480 x 480 resolution. Many DVD players choke on that, preferring the more standard 720×480, I believe.

Some DVD creator apps simply won't accept the files. And those that do, and burn without re-encoding, will create disks that may not play in all players.

More discussion here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3707076&&#post3707076
And lots more available by Googling.

I even saw a link to a hack tip that shows how to change the resolution that TiVo records with, for better compliance:
http://www.tuhs.org/twiki/bin/view/Videoextract/DVDArchivingwithLinux2

I guess my point is, simply burning without re-encoding might not produce the desired effect for you. It may be speedier, but at what cost?

If all you want is compatibility with your own player, then maybe it's not a big deal. Check first, and if it works, burn away!

But I'd personally hate to create a bunch of archived DVD's filled with recordings and find out later on that they didn't work in other DVD Players down the road.


----------



## peternelson

Fofer said:


> peternelson posted above about using Toast 7 to burn, and having set the option to "never encode:"
> 
> So I'm curious to hear how a burned disk that way works in a standalone DVD player.
> 
> However, I'm pretty sure these extracted files have a different resolution, from the standard DVD spec. So the re-encoding process actually brings them within compatibility for more DVD Players. I guess the point I am trying to make is, not all DVD Players would be happy with a disk created by MPEG's not completely compatible. What works on one player might not work on another.
> 
> I think the re-encoding mitigates that risk?


I finally burned that Toast7 disc image of non-re-encoded MPEGs to a DVD and tried it in my Sony DVD player. It plays, but I noticed that the audio is slightly out of sync right from the beginning of each show. I think the audio is about 1/2 second earlier than the video. Looking back at the DVD I made earlier with re-encoding, I noticed that it's also slightly out of sync by about the same amount. These files were converted to MPEGs with TivoDecoder v0.1.2 - and I've got a Series 2 TiVo (540 series). I noticed that v0.1.4 is out now - mabye I'll try re-decoding these files?

All the files I decoded/burned are medium TiVo quality, which have a resolution of 352x480. Both DVDs I burned (re-encoded and non-re-encoded) ended up with the same 352x480 resolution on the DVD. (in other words, re-encoding with Toast7 apparently didn't change the resolution). From reading posts on this forum, that resolution is known as "half D1" (half DVD resolution) and is supported by some DVD players. High/best quality TiVo recordings have 480x480 resolution, and that is not supported by many DVD players.

So it looks like Toast7 isn't the answer! What's next?


----------



## westside_guy

schalliol said:


> DVD Players play MPEG-2, so I wouldn't think there should be a problem. However, I do have difficulties playing some MPEG-2 files (like these) through QuickTime.


Quicktime doesn't handle the MPEG2 muxed format, even if you've purchased the extra MPEG2 codec from Apple; so you either have to play the files with VLC or MPlayer, or else use something like ffmpegX to split the audio and video tracks.

*Edit:* I noticed after the fact that someone else already mentioned using ffmpegX. It's not the most user-friendly app in the world, but it works. I've found I have to manually set it to use 480x360 resolution for the video, otherwise when it auto-detects it messes up the aspect ratio in the target .mov (or whatever format you choose).


----------



## nightstrm

I've seen rumors around that we may be seeing something "official" at Macworld in January. I'm not holding my breath (especially since I have a S3 Tivo), but here's hoping.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

schalliol said:


> DVD Players play MPEG-2, so I wouldn't think there should be a problem.


The DVD spec doesn't call for players to support arbitrary MPEG-2 formats, though. In fact, there are pretty strict numbers for resolution, bit rate, maximum length of a group of pictures, and so on (the Wikipedia entry covers this pretty well). The formats that TiVos record in are not all formats covered by the DVD spec.

_Some_ DVD players will handle more formats than are covered by the spec, but none are required to, so you're taking your chances if you don't reencode and don't know what the real specs of the MPEG-2 you're working with are.


----------



## Fofer

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> The DVD spec doesn't call for players to support arbitrary MPEG-2 formats, though. In fact, there are pretty strict numbers for resolution, bit rate, maximum length of a group of pictures, and so on (the Wikipedia entry covers this pretty well). The formats that TiVos record in are not all formats covered by the DVD spec.
> 
> _Some_ DVD players will handle more formats than are covered by the spec, but none are required to, so you're taking your chances if you don't reencode and don't know what the real specs of the MPEG-2 you're working with are.


Yeah, Dennis stated it better (and more succinctly) than I could above.

I also have read that certain TiVo's (like, the ones that have DVD Recorders built in, or the ones called DirecTiVos) record in different resolutions better suited for that particular purpose and platform.

IE: the ones with integrated DVD Recorders, would of course, record with the appropriate "DVD spec" resolution, so the disks it outputs are compatible with most DVD players.


----------



## swingline

peternelson said:


> I finally burned that Toast7 disc image of non-re-encoded MPEGs to a DVD and tried it in my Sony DVD player. It plays, but I noticed that the audio is slightly out of sync right from the beginning of each show. I think the audio is about 1/2 second earlier than the video. Looking back at the DVD I made earlier with re-encoding, I noticed that it's also slightly out of sync by about the same amount. These files were converted to MPEGs with TivoDecoder v0.1.2 - and I've got a Series 2 TiVo (540 series). I noticed that v0.1.4 is out now - mabye I'll try re-decoding these files?
> 
> All the files I decoded/burned are medium TiVo quality, which have a resolution of 352x480. Both DVDs I burned (re-encoded and non-re-encoded) ended up with the same 352x480 resolution on the DVD. (in other words, re-encoding with Toast7 apparently didn't change the resolution). From reading posts on this forum, that resolution is known as "half D1" (half DVD resolution) and is supported by some DVD players. High/best quality TiVo recordings have 480x480 resolution, and that is not supported by many DVD players.
> 
> So it looks like Toast7 isn't the answer! What's next?


I think TivoDecoder 0.1.4 solved my sync issues. The file looks and sounds great when I play it in VLC. I've also been doing some burning experiments. I have 2 DVD decks; one's a samsung burner that's very finicky and likes its discs to be very vanilla and the other's a stock VCR combo thing that has literally played everything I have ever put in it. When I burn with Toast 7, whether I re-encode or not, I can play it on the combo deck and it looks and sounds great, no sync issues. The finicky deck looks great but has no sound at all, whether I re-encode or not.

However when I go the ffmpegx route, choosing DVD as the output, I get a disc that plays, with audio in both machines. I've not yet done this with a file downloaded under 0.1.4, but this looks like the safest approach for now, which is a drag because Toasts 1-step encoding-burning is pretty neat.


----------



## SnakeEyes

I'm not the only one that has to choose the aspect ratio in VLC for videos pulled from my TiVo right?


----------



## schalliol

Maybe someone has covered this and I missed it, but some of the programs I download do in fact cut off (at least when played from VLC) about 8-10 minutes into them. The files do show a similar size to the files on the TiVo, so I don't think that it's missing. Does anyone know how to fix this?


----------



## Lon

schalliol said:


> Maybe someone has covered this and I missed it, but some of the programs I download do in fact cut off (at least when played from VLC) about 8-10 minutes into them. The files do show a similar size to the files on the TiVo, so I don't think that it's missing. Does anyone know how to fix this?


What version of VLC are you running? 0.8.6 was just released the other day and works fine for me.


----------



## peternelson

Lon said:


> What version of VLC are you running? 0.8.6 was just released the other day and works fine for me.


I can confirm that the latest version of VLC for OSX (0.8.6, released sometime this weekend) fixed the problem I had where the total time of the MPEG was reported incorrectly. I had problems with the previous version of VLC (0.8.5) where it couldn't figure out the correct length of the video (it though a 30 minute video was about 4 minutes long) and would crash if I scrubbed the playhead to the end of the file.


----------



## javabird

johnnylundy said:


> http://homepage.mac.com/johnnylundy/
> 
> It's at the bottom of the list titled "TiVo File Decoder".
> 
> .


johnnylundy, is there any chance you could update this to include the newer version of Tivo File Decoder (0.1.4)?

(this script has been working consistently better for me than some of the others floating around. much thanks!)


----------



## Farshooter

Am I the only one still stuck just trying to get my files off my Tivo and on my Mac so I can try to decode them? Via Safari/Bonjour or NowPlaying 2.0 widget the downloading starts but stalls well before the whole file gets downloaded. Ideas? If this is the wrong place to ask please send me to the correct thread! Thanks.


----------



## derekcbart

Farshooter said:


> Am I the only one still stuck just trying to get my files off my Tivo and on my Mac so I can try to decode them? Via Safari/Bonjour or NowPlaying 2.0 widget the downloading starts but stalls well before the whole file gets downloaded. Ideas? If this is the wrong place to ask please send me to the correct thread! Thanks.


When TiVo Decoder was released last week I used the NowPlaying widget to download the file and it worked fine. I've only done it the one time to test out the decoder because I am only using the Series 3 now.


----------



## douglb1

well i guess when my contract is up next month i am leaving tivo behind as well... i had no idea that leaving mac users out in the cold has been going on as long as it has. bhuy bhuy tivo.


----------



## TheSlyBear

douglb1 said:


> well i guess when my contract is up next month i am leaving tivo behind as well... i had no idea that leaving mac users out in the cold has been going on as long as it has. bhuy bhuy tivo.


Seems pretty silly to throw the baby out with the bathwater now that the DRM has been cracked. But your choice...


----------



## javabird

Farshooter said:


> Am I the only one still stuck just trying to get my files off my Tivo and on my Mac so I can try to decode them? Via Safari/Bonjour or NowPlaying 2.0 widget the downloading starts but stalls well before the whole file gets downloaded. Ideas? If this is the wrong place to ask please send me to the correct thread! Thanks.


I've had good results using both (OSX 10.4.8). But you might want to try out the latest version of Tivo Decode Manager, which will download and decode in one step:

http://thebenesch.com/tdm/


----------



## javabird

SnakeEyes said:


> I'm not the only one that has to choose the aspect ratio in VLC for videos pulled from my TiVo right?


Same here. I prefer MPlayer which just works.


----------



## buzzdata

All,

I'm working on an alternative to tivo decode manager, a universal binary all-in-one solution for the mac. Development is progressing well in my spare time. Application has the following features:

- Support multiple tivo dvrs
- download, decode, and convert multiple files in single step
- optionally scale and convert for ipod
- automatically add to iTunes

Planning to release this as open source eventually - hope is to get it far enough along to make it useful before submitting it. I'm looking for a handful of beta testers for feedback. Send me a PM if interested.


----------



## tonyf3

javabird said:


> I've had good results using both (OSX 10.4.8). But you might want to try out the latest version of Tivo Decode Manager, which will download and decode in one step:
> 
> http://thebenesch.com/tdm/


The latest version (1.5) won't connect to my TiVo.
The previous version worked fine until I cleaned up my desktop.
Now it processes the Shows but leaves me with a Zero K file.

Upgraded to 1.5 from 1.1.6. Tried going back to 1.1.6 but it won't connect now either.

By the way, great work Dave. Thanks for all the effort. Hoping for a patch or update soon.


----------



## tonyf3

Update: At Home TDM 1.5, appears to have my 2 TiVo's in it's drop down list and rememeberd the IP & MAK code. But nothing shows up in the Now Playing window. I was switching between TiVo's at work and at home. Same issue there. 

It worked well for a day anyway. Kinda like dropping an ice cream cone on the ground just as someone hands it to you.


----------



## homeinvader

Farshooter said:


> Am I the only one still stuck just trying to get my files off my Tivo and on my Mac so I can try to decode them? Via Safari/Bonjour or NowPlaying 2.0 widget the downloading starts but stalls well before the whole file gets downloaded. Ideas? If this is the wrong place to ask please send me to the correct thread! Thanks.


I'm pretty sure it's your wireless adapter, not the software.

I had the same trouble. it would start the download, then stall after a little bit. I was using a D-Link wireless adapter and read somewhere here that some wireless adapters do not have a stable enough connection for downloading large files. While being able to connect to Tivo service just fine, they cannot download large files reliably. I swapped it out for actual Tivo Wireless G adapter and it solved the trouble. All files download completely with no trouble whatsoever.


----------



## Farshooter

Seems you have it right. If I do a wired connection all is well. I'd been using my wireless connection and never had trouble until started asking it to do the big jobs! Guess I'll stay wired for the moment cuz I dont' want to send MacRude Tivo any more of my money at this point for a connector that will work.

Thanks!!! --Doug


----------



## Fofer

Farshooter said:


> MacRude Tivo


LOL

 :up:


----------



## tonyf3

So, TiVo Decode Manager 1.5 is now working. May have been a MAK Key issue. It seems to remember the Cue, IP, and MAK of the last TiVo connected to. I appear to have had the MAK from my Work TiVo with the IP for my Home TiVo. Trying my first download with 1.5 and decoding directly to Quicktime. It's a little slower, but cooking right along.


----------



## briguymaine

Does anyone else think it's funny that PCs have been stumbling around for a year with a flawed (granted you only hear about the problems in this forum) yet legit TTG, and now we mac users seem to have a fantastic (yet not so legit) solution that seems to have dropped in our laps. 

I know about TivoTools but it's not a solution for me!


----------



## TheSlyBear

Well, yes, it's great! And I publicly applaud the author.

But I'm not sure I'd put it into the "fantastic" column until an easy, quick and loss-avoiding means to bring the video into the iApps is concocted.

I'm currently converting the MPEG to DV using ffmpegX, but I'd hardly call that easy or quick.


----------



## TydalForce

the only way we're gonna get loss-avoiding is to build a good mpeg2 codec into quicktime.....

I'm as big an Apple fan as anyone, but I'm a bit surprised they charge $20 (?) for a not-so-great mpeg2 codec as it is...


----------



## davezatz

briguymaine said:


> Does anyone else think it's funny that PCs have been stumbling around for a year with a flawed (granted you only hear about the problems in this forum) yet legit TTG, and now we mac users seem to have a fantastic (yet not so legit) solution that seems to have dropped in our laps.


In case it's not clear, TiVo Decode works on Windows and Linux too. I've got it on my Mac *and* my PC. Not to mention the code is open source...


----------



## hargreae

swingline said:


> I think TivoDecoder 0.1.4 solved my sync issues. The file looks and sounds great when I play it in VLC. I've also been doing some burning experiments.


Using Toast 7, I burned a DVD of a one-hour program that had been decoded using 0.1.2 and when the resulting DVD was played back, the audio was about 1-2 seconds ahead of the video, making it largely useless. I recently transferred off a different one-hour program, decoded using 0.1.4 and again burned using Toast 7. The result was better, but audio was still off by half-a-second or so.

I was pretty excited by tivodecode at first, so that I could finally burn my recorded programs to DVD (even without ad-cutting capabilities) but now it seems pointless. Any suggestions?


----------



## javabird

hargreae said:


> Using Toast 7, I burned a DVD of a one-hour program that had been decoded using 0.1.2 and when the resulting DVD was played back, the audio was about 1-2 seconds ahead of the video, making it largely useless. I recently transferred off a different one-hour program, decoded using 0.1.4 and again burned using Toast 7. The result was better, but audio was still off by half-a-second or so.
> 
> I was pretty excited by tivodecode at first, so that I could finally burn my recorded programs to DVD (even without ad-cutting capabilities) but now it seems pointless. Any suggestions?


I've been experimenting with version 1.5 of Tivo Decode Manager, which seems to be giving good results. I'm encoding with Toast 7.1.2 and creating an image file to test it (uisng Apple's DVD player), then use use Toast to burn the image file to DVD. I haven't noticed any sync issues. It does take a long time, so it's best to let it encode overnight.

(It would be way less work to just use a DVD recorder from the Tivo, but I can't afford one and I already have a superdrive on my laptop.)


----------



## macuser25

I be that there will be an official Mac TiVo Togo option coming this year at the MacWorld event they have in San Francisco.


----------



## davezatz

macuser25 said:


> I be that there will be an official Mac TiVo Togo option coming this year at the MacWorld event they have in San Francisco.


MacWorld and CES are the same time this year. TiVo is most definitely attending CES, but they're not on the public MacWorld roster at this time...

Though I do believe there will be an 'official' Mac TiVoToGo in 2007. Not that we'll need it - I assume these other apps will continue to be polished. Unless TiVo licenses a codec on the Mac (as they did on the PC) for conversions to use video in iLife/QuickTime.


----------



## nightstrm

It would be one less hurdle for those of us with Series 3 boxes and a Mac... while I don't think they will announce anything at CES in reference to enabling TTG on the S3, at least we'd have an official Mac client.


----------



## dwdavedw

I tried out version 1.5 of Tivo Decode Manager, can't get it to see the TIVO. I typed in the TIVO's ip address and can get to now playing in safari, and have downloaded a file from the tivo that way, but can't convert it.
Also, bonjour doesn't see the TIVO either - can that be part of the problem? How to solve that? Bonjour browser sees the Tivo, but doesn't show up in Safari. MAC 10.4.8 and brand new 
Tivo Dual Tuner.


----------



## Scott Atkinson

I am most impressed by Tivo Decode Mgr: installed it today and it immediately saw both Tivos in my office.

I was able to transfer files off both. Downloads went fast, and played back flawlessly on my eMac.

A question: as the developer notes, QT chokes on the MPEG 2 files TDM generates. In order to be able to edit a file, I did the following: converted it to a .mov file using ffmpegX, and then edited the result. (I used SimplemovieX for this test.)

It works, but it's a bit awkward. Anyone else got thoughts on a way to cut directly from the MPEG 2 file?

Scott A.


----------



## jblake

You can use VLC to play the files directly (most of the time you have to select the aspect ratio, though) or you can use VisualHub to convert them to a more friendly format. I bought vishub just for this purpose, along with converting videos back to Tivo format (it has a built in Tivo profile) so I can put my existing videos back using TTG


----------



## Scott Atkinson

jblake said:


> You can use VLC to play the files directly (most of the time you have to select the aspect ratio, though) or you can use VisualHub to convert them to a more friendly format. I bought vishub just for this purpose, along with converting videos back to Tivo format (it has a built in Tivo profile) so I can put my existing videos back using TTG


What I was hoping for was an editor that would let me cut up the MPEG 2 files TDM produces, without having to convert to another format first.

I tried several small editors this afternoon, none of which worked.

Never heard of VH until you referenced it. Looks like a much cleaner interface than ffmpegX.

Questions:

Does the flash part let you adjust contrast and level?

Is there batch processing?

Best,

Scott A.

btw - I've been a vlc guy for about a year, but tried mplayer this afternoon and it "just worked" for viewing TDM files.


----------



## jblake

VH does let you add files in batch, not sure on the flash part. Another really awesome feature if you are doing batches is that VH is XGrid enabled, meaning if you have other macs on your network (or a multi-core or multi-processor mac) it will split up the jobs and farm them out to any available processor on the network.

VH isn't much more than a front-end for already existing command line tools, but its so easy to use and you can do stuff in batch, stich files together, etc.. its really worth it to not have to learn how to do everything by command line.


----------



## dwdavedw

I got tivo decode manager working - repaired permissions, and realized you shouldn't use the ach tee tee Pee ess : // in the ip field. 
(spam manager wouldn't let me write this correctly)
Still can't get bonjour to see the tivo though, in safari, only get _ech tee tee pee in the bonjour bookmark (again with the spam blocker)
Tivo decode manager worked great, downloaded and converted a 1/2 hour show and opened it in mplayer - no problems. Is there a decent "tivo for mac" faq out there that describes all this stuff in detail? It took me about 2 solid days to track down all the info on how to download, upload, convert each way, etc. etc.


----------



## hargreae

TiVoToGo for Mac made Wired News' Vaporware '06 Awards:
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,72350-2.html?tw=wn_story_page_next2

And it earned Lame List nomination of the year on The Lame Show podcast:
http://podcast.hawktaildesign.com/


----------



## davezatz

hargreae said:


> TiVoToGo for Mac made Wired News' Vaporware '06 Awards:
> http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,72350-2.html?tw=wn_story_page_next2


#2? Must have been a slow year for vapor. 

Negative publicity beats no publicity, and Wired is educating folks that TTG currently exists for Windows (you'd be surprised how many people have no idea) and that a Mac application is in the works.

By the way, Duke Nuken at #1 is getting old. Does anyone really care?


----------



## patatrox

davezatz said:


> By the way, Duke Nuken at #1 is getting old. Does anyone really care?


Yes.

I check the official site at least once every few months in hopes that maybe, just maybe....


----------



## loudgazelle

hargreae said:


> TiVoToGo for Mac made Wired News' Vaporware '06 Awards:
> http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,72350-2.html?tw=wn_story_page_next2
> 
> And it earned Lame List nomination of the year on The Lame Show podcast:
> http://podcast.hawktaildesign.com/


It'd be way nicer if they hadn't even promised anything... then i wouldn't be anticipating it only to keep on getting disappointed.

stupid tivo


----------



## eschasi

Harrumph. You know, I'd actually forgotten that tivotogo was supposed to be out in mid-06. That it wasn't isn't a major sin; that's life in the software biz. What was a major sin is not keeping your users informed. Yeah, nobody likes to stand up and admit they're late. But keeping your users is the dark is the A#1 way to make the problems worse.

At this point, Tivo is in a race between how long my series 2 lasts (it's getting a bit flakey) and delivering on their Mac code. Given their new pricing structures and repeated inability to do deliver on capabilities that the free software community seems to be handling well, I see no reason to buy another. At the moment the fees are reasonable, but damned if I'll be shelling out for a new box without the software promised two years ago.


----------



## dgdickerson

I just got Tivodecode Manager and trying to set up. It asks for "Media Access Key" The Tivo settings shows a "MAC ID:" which I thought was it but it does not work. Network tests out. Anyone with ideas?


----------



## cwoody222

Your MAK (Media Access Key) can be found on your TiVo's System Info screens (or somewhere in there in Settings). I think it's 10 digits.


----------



## Scott Atkinson

Everybody knows TDM 2.0 is now out, right?

s.


----------



## javabird

Scott Atkinson said:


> Everybody knows TDM 2.0 is now out, right?
> 
> s.


What is TDM?


----------



## derekcbart

javabird said:


> What is TDM?


TiVo Decode Manager

It is basically the unofficial TTG for Mac.


----------



## davezatz

Scott Atkinson said:


> Everybody knows TDM 2.0 is now out, right?


Looks slick. I'll need to kick the fiancee off her Mac this week to try the revised version. Sometime after MacWorld I should be getting my own portable... waiting to see if they're any updates or new models (12"? tablet?) and see if I can get work to foot the bill.


----------



## javabird

thanks. I'll give the new version a try.


----------



## paulyras

Ahhh... 2.0 is very nice. I like the auto formatting for iPod etc... (I hadn't played with this since before 1.5, so that might not be that new). I like the cleaned up interface too. Thanks very much. 

Not to be greedy, but is there any possibility of DL'ing simultaneously from two different tivos in the house? It's pretty clear that the Tivo itself is the limiting factor on speed, so it would be nice to be able to hit up both at the same time. I really doubt it would choke my home network.

Thanks, and again, great work.

P


----------



## Scott Atkinson

I just started to play with 2.0, and I may be severely wrong, but at first blush I couldn't get QT to properly play the .mov file it generated, running on a modest 1 gig eMac.

s.


----------



## TydalForce

If you don't transcode the video, and just download it, quicktime won't be able to play it -- it has no MPEG2 codec

Try VLC - http://www.videolan.org/ It's free and it's spiffy cool and will be able to play the files you yoink from your TiVo


----------



## virtual_bliss

Just to clarify, I assume if I want to burn a recording to DVD I would use the mpeg2 version and not mpeg4? Will iDVD do the trick?


----------



## TheSlyBear

TydalForce said:


> quicktime won't be able to play it -- it has no MPEG2 codec


Even if you get the MPEG2 codec for Quicktime, the TiVo MPEG2 is not compatible with it.


----------



## TheSlyBear

virtual_bliss said:


> Just to clarify, I assume if I want to burn a recording to DVD I would use the mpeg2 version and not mpeg4? Will iDVD do the trick?


iDVD will not accept mpeg2. The mpeg2 file needs to be converted to something Quicktime compatible. And because the decoded mpeg2 is not Quicktime-compatible, you can't use Quicktime itself to perform the conversion.

You could use ffmpegX, but I've had better luck with ViaualHub (not free).

As far as what to convert the mpeg2 file into.... well, as we speak I'm playing around with that and will report my findings when I have some results.

Toast Titanium (not free) will create a DVD from the mpeg2, but its DVD authoring is far less capable than iDVD.


----------



## virtual_bliss

Thanks for the info bootedbear. What format would I need to convert the mpeg2 in to in order for iDVD to work, .mov? MPEG4 won't work?


----------



## TheSlyBear

P.S. The same goes for any Quicktime-based application such as iMovie or Final Cut.

I have yet to find an OS X application that can edit the mpeg2 file. All I need to do is to elide the commercials, but I've had to convert to DV or mpeg4 to do that, so I can bring the video into Final Cut or Quicktime Pro.


----------



## Figaro

Well this TiVoDecode guy is my new hero. To actually be able to pull stuff off the TiVo to my laptop is just awesome. Now being able to convert to usable QuickTime is even awesomer. I don't have good luck with VLC so I like to avoid it. If only there was a way to improve the speed of getting it through the ghetto USB connection. Damn lack of ethernet.


----------



## TheSlyBear

virtual_bliss said:


> Thanks for the info bootedbear. What format would I need to convert the mpeg2 in to in order for iDVD to work, .mov? MPEG4 won't work?


I've tried DV (very long conversion, very large files) and am now trying mpeg4.

iDVD is busily encoding a disk image of 4 one-half hour episodes as we speak. I'll report back with any quality issues once the DVD is burned and popped into my player.


----------



## Scott Atkinson

TydalForce said:


> If you don't transcode the video, and just download it, quicktime won't be able to play it -- it has no MPEG2 codec
> 
> Try VLC - http://www.videolan.org/ It's free and it's spiffy cool and will be able to play the files you yoink from your TiVo


Of course, but it appears TDM 2.0 is transcoding automatically. One of the mods to version 2.0 - unless I'm misreading or misunderstanding - is autoconversion to QT compatible mp4 files.

s.


----------



## TheSlyBear

OK, the mpeg4 files (converted from mpeg2 via VisualHub) encoded fine in iDVD. The video was slightly grainy, but subjectively no more so than when I converted to DV. And the original signal wasn't all that stellar to begin with.



Scott Atkinson said:


> Of course, but it appears TDM 2.0 is transcoding automatically. One of the mods to version 2.0 - unless I'm misreading or misunderstanding - is autoconversion to QT compatible mp4 files.


Interesting. If the conversion is of high enough quality, that'll remove one conversion step. Good stuff.

Unfortunately, I can't try it because after downloading TDM 2.0.1 the interface is mostly non-responsive. The list works, but none of the buttons respond to a click. Weird.


----------



## TheSlyBear

Update: a re-install of TDM 2.0.1 seemed to clear things up (weird).

I'm downloading an episode in mpeg4 as I type. Will run it through the paces and report tomorrow.


----------



## virtual_bliss

I tried iDVD with an mpeg4 version of The Office. It worked fine, however the audio in the mpeg4 file was not in sync with the video so the dialogue was off by a few seconds. This wasn't a result of iDVD because it was in file itself. I used the custom mpeg4 download (but didn't change any settings), not the mpeg4 for ipod.


----------



## FrooBrar

virtual_bliss said:


> I tried iDVD with an mpeg4 version of The Office. It worked fine, however the audio in the mpeg4 file was not in sync with the video so the dialogue was off by a few seconds. This wasn't a result of iDVD because it was in file itself. I used the custom mpeg4 download (but didn't change any settings), not the mpeg4 for ipod.


This happens to me a lot also, on Linux and on Windows with various software. I have also heard it from several people. If anyone has a good tip for ffmpeg or some other open-source transcoder on how to convert it to something that does not have audio-sync issues, I would love to hear it...


----------



## gonzotek

FrooBrar said:


> This happens to me a lot also, on Linux and on Windows with various software. I have also heard it from several people. If anyone has a good tip for ffmpeg or some other open-source transcoder on how to convert it to something that does not have audio-sync issues, I would love to hear it...


I've also occasionally had audio sync issues on windows with ffmpeg. Have you tried the -async 1 flag? I've successfully used it to convert a downloaded mpeg4/mp3 avi to a tivo-friendly mpeg2. Here's the what the docs have to say about async (they don't provide much insight, but anyway...):
http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/ffmpeg-doc.html


> '-async samples_per_second'
> Audio sync method. "Stretches/squeezes" the audio stream to match the timestamps, the parameter is the maximum samples per second by which the audio is changed. -async 1 is a special case where only the start of the audio stream is corrected without any later correction.


----------



## TheSlyBear

virtual_bliss said:


> It worked fine, however the audio in the mpeg4 file was not in sync with the video so the dialogue was off by a few seconds.


Hmm. I downloaded two episodes of some shows last night using TDM 2.0.1 with the mp4 custom setting (video: 1800 kpbs, audio: 128 kbps) and there is no sync issue in either of the mp4 files.

FWIW, hardware is a MacBook Pro 2GHz Duo w/2G ram, OS X 10.4.8.


----------



## javabird

virtual_bliss said:


> I tried iDVD with an mpeg4 version of The Office. It worked fine, however the audio in the mpeg4 file was not in sync with the video so the dialogue was off by a few seconds. This wasn't a result of iDVD because it was in file itself. I used the custom mpeg4 download (but didn't change any settings), not the mpeg4 for ipod.


I had the same problem with an mpeg4 file I tested and imported into iMovie. Audio noticeably out of sync.


----------



## virtual_bliss

bootedbear said:


> Hmm. I downloaded two episodes of some shows last night using TDM 2.0.1 with the mp4 custom setting (video: 1800 kpbs, audio: 128 kbps) and there is no sync issue in either of the mp4 files.
> 
> FWIW, hardware is a MacBook Pro 2GHz Duo w/2G ram, OS X 10.4.8.


I downloaded a different show with TDM 2.0.1 (previous issue was with 2.0) and used same settings as you. This time, no audio out of sync issues. Maybe it was a problem with 2.0?


----------



## Lon

Just a quick link to an AppleInsider posting:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2357

for those too lazy to click through ... 


> Saturday, January 6, 2007
> Macworld: Roxio issues Mac TiVo teaser; OWC ModBook
> 
> By Prince McLean
> Published: 09:00 PM EST
> Roxio, Axiotron and Other World Computer are among a handful of players in the Mac market that have released new product teasers ahead of next week's Macworld Expo in San Francisco, Calif.
> 
> Mac Ta-ta-ta-TeeVo?
> 
> Roxio, a division of Sonic Solutions popular for its Toast and Popcorn optical disc authoring software packages, is expected to deliver one of the most sought-after Mac software solutions during the conference.
> 
> The Novato, Calif.-based company this week distributed to affiliates a digital invitation to its booth at Macworld, promising a special gift. "We've got a special present for you," it said. "Come to booth #314 at Macworld Expo and see what we've got under wraps."
> 
> Roxio in the invitation also promises "show special prices, free gifts and raffle prizes. So what's in the software developer's secret sauce? What was that earlier? Did we say TiVo?


----------



## Figaro

Lon said:


> Just a quick link to an AppleInsider posting:
> 
> http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2357
> 
> for those too lazy to click through ...


So if this is true, we will have to buy Toast in order to get something that the PC folks have for free?


----------



## Fofer

And, even if so, I say to TiVo: "Too little, too late."

(Thank you, TiVoDecodeManager.)


----------



## Figaro

Fofer said:


> And, even if so, I say to TiVo: "Too little, too late."
> 
> (Thank you, TiVoDecodeManager.)


I say that it is probably the last straw for me. Between their new prices and and now this? I might as well go with my cable companie's DVR and and ditch my single tuner series two. TiVo obviously does not want my business.


----------



## nightstrm

TiVo announcing Series 3 TTG functionality at CES *AND* a native Mac client at Macworld would be the perfect week for me.

Oh, and if Jobs releases the iPhone and iTV to the world.


----------



## derekcbart

TTG and MRV will not be in the initial release of 8.1 for the S3.

Here is another thread talking about this:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4747806#post4747806


----------



## Figaro

nightstrm said:


> TiVo announcing Series 3 TTG functionality at CES *AND* a native Mac client at Macworld would be the perfect week for me.
> 
> Oh, and if Jobs releases the iPhone and iTV to the world.


What if its a native Mac version that you have to pay for?


----------



## Fofer

Figaro said:


> What if its a native Mac version that you have to pay for?


What if that includes the DVD burning (which I assume it would, if the hints/rumors are true and that's what we're talking about.) Don't PC folks have to pay extra to be able to burn, too?

All of this is moot though, since Mac users got fed up waiting long ago. I suspect TiVoDecode Manager would be better than whatever TiVo/Roxio/whoever took 2.5 years to come out with, anyway.


----------



## nightstrm

Figaro said:


> What if its a native Mac version that you have to pay for?


That's a tough one... if the currently available options worked with the S3, I'd probably use it since I would not be concerned with burning capabilities (if that was the defining feature of the pay-for one).


----------



## macuser25

Figaro said:


> So if this is true, we will have to buy Toast in order to get something that the PC folks have for free?


PC users don't get it for free... all they get for free is the transfer to the PC... if they want to convert shows for iPod, they have to pay TiVo $30 for the Plus version of the TiVo Desktop... if they want burning they have to pay Roxio $70 for MyDVD.

Transfer is basically worthless by itself... the conversion and burning is what you want, and PC users have to pay for that too.

Plus, if it really is part of Toast... well... that's not too bad anyway... ask just about any Mac user and they'll tell you that Toast is one of the must-have apps you need.

If you get TiVo TOGO as part of Toast, and all the other Toast stuff... it's worth it IMO.


----------



## Figaro

macuser25 said:


> PC users don't get it for free... all they get for free is the transfer to the PC... if they want to convert shows for iPod, they have to pay TiVo $30 for the Plus version of the TiVo Desktop... if they want burning they have to pay Roxio $70 for MyDVD.
> 
> Transfer is basically worthless by itself... the conversion and burning is what you want, and PC users have to pay for that too.
> 
> Plus, if it really is part of Toast... well... that's not too bad anyway... ask just about any Mac user and they'll tell you that Toast is one of the must-have apps you need.
> 
> If you get TiVo TOGO as part of Toast, and all the other Toast stuff... it's worth it IMO.


I only cared about the transfer ability. Burning has never been a big deal. I have been a Mac user and have been paid to use Macs for the past 10 years. During that time Toast has never been a must have. Granted that is just my experience, but I don't think I should have to pay someone else for something TiVo promised years ago.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Figaro said:


> What if its a native Mac version that you have to pay for?


I've been expecting to have to pay somebody something for the Mac version from the get-go, since there are no licensed, usable MPEG-2 codecs installed on a Mac by default (the one supplied with the DVD Player app is usable only by that app and isn't a general QuickTime codec.) Either you'd pay Apple for the MPEG-2 QuickTime components or you'd pay TiVo to cover the cost of their licensing fee.

Technically, the same is true on the PC, but there your odds are a bit better, since all the DVD player apps over there use DirectShow MPEG 2 decoders available to all DirectShow apps, and most machines have DVD drives these days that bundle said player software. Of course, not all of the MPEG-2 decoders on the PC side will work correctly with TiVo Desktop/TTG, but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.


----------



## ryanozawa

Gizmodo reported today, "*It's Official: TiVo to Go for Mac Right Now*." Except the link to Tivo.com goes nowhere. Maybe someone, somewhere, briefly jumped the gun on something that was supposed to be unveiled at Macworld? Hey, a guy can dream.


----------



## Fofer

Text says:



> TiVo to Go is out for the Mac, but support comes by way of Roxio's Toast version 8. Yes, the DVD/CD burning software. So now you can burn your shows to DVD, convert shows to iPod/PSP format, and watch em on your Mac. First 5,000 customers to pick up a copy get a free remote.


----------



## davezatz

If you'd like more info and a few pics, you might want to stop by my site. I had a pretty good talk with both Roxio and TiVo last week and overall I think it's a nice solution.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2007-01/mac-tivotogo-is-here-by-roxio/

Software goes on sale TODAY.


----------



## Fofer

Eh. I'll wait until it works with Series 3. (It probably never will.)

Again: Too little, too late, TiVo.


----------



## shelbel

Well, it's certainly nice to have other options, particularly for those of you who have been having trouble burning dvds with the workarounds. But I just wanted to be able to watch shows in other rooms of the house that didn't have tv but did have a computer, and converting them to iPod format for my daughter to play on car trips just makes my day. I don't have any particular need to buy Toast; the apps I've got meet my needs right now.

Thank you again to everyone involved with developing the workaround apps! It can't be said enough.


----------



## cwoody222

Fofer said:


> Eh. I'll wait until it works with Series 3. (It probably never will.)
> 
> Again: Too little, too late, TiVo.


Ditto.

Nice try TiVo, but no go.


----------



## Figaro

Wow, they just don't have a clue how to maintain a good relationship with their customers.

"TiVo to Go is coming for the Mac. Yes it's still coming. It's here, you just have to buy a hundred dollar set of software to get it!"


----------



## chiefted

Well since I have a better, and FREE (as in speech and beer) will continue to use that. I may have to upgrade to Toast 8 at some point but its not a rush. Even if/when I do upgrade will continue to use TivoDecode manager that Dave Benesch has released. No DRM and easy to use. 

Ya Tivo...to little to late :down: (I know someone will say that Mac users are never happy even though this is out). My own feelings are that this wouldn't have been announced now if it weren't for everyone that put in some much time and effort to what we have been using for a few months now and with the other reason (the project known as iTV) about to hit the streets they had to do something.


----------



## thezippy

More than too little too late, its an insult.

To have to pay $100 for this "feature" is ridiculous.

I've been a TIVO customer for a number of years now and have even had an article written about me, in the LA Times, and my love for TIVO.

But I'm done. It may seen, at a glance, like an over-reaction, but really this is the final straw in a product that's failing to keep up with the competition, has a bizarre and constantly changing price-structure, and has offered zero support to MAC users.

I'm not ready to go TIVO-free, but I'll be calling today and cancelling 1 of my 2 boxes... I can tivo on the bigger box and transfer files to the 2nd over my home network.

Cya, Tivo.


----------



## Lon

if you look at the screen shots:

http://blog.wired.com/wiredphotos13/2007/01/playing_a_stand.html

you will notice the "Elgato" player controller -- other screens look similar to Elgato's EyeTV app, too.


----------



## SullyND

thezippy said:


> I'm not ready to go TIVO-free, but I'll be calling today and cancelling 1 of my 2 boxes... I can tivo on the bigger box and transfer files to the 2nd over my home network.


Assuming both are Series 2 devices, good luck with that.


----------



## TheSlyBear

Hmmm, not to be negative, but I didn't see anything that would allow for removing commercials prior to burning.


----------



## derekcbart

Well, one of the main applications that I use on an almost daily basis is Toast, so I will be purchasing version 8 at some point anyways. The main thing I want TTG for is to burn/archive episodes to DVD so this will be easier, but with TiVoDecode Manager it really isn't necessary since that works perfectly fine with the current version of Toast.


----------



## Puppy76

I have very little interest in burning shows to DVD (I've only wanted to once, and couldn't get it to work on my PC). So the $100 Toast thing is lame...but on the other hand, the software looks really nice, and it looks like it's actually a much better solution than what you get on Windows.


----------



## johnkzin

chiefted said:


> My own feelings are that this wouldn't have been announced now if it weren't for [...] and with the other reason (the project known as iTV) about to hit the streets they had to do something.


I am not sure it's an effort to compete with iTV, as much as it's an effort to be compatible with iTV.

1) Toast 8 is going to let you automatically transfer shows from your Tivo to your Mac, and automatically add them to your iTunes library.

2) iTV plays video content out of your iTunes library.

Poof. Instant compatibility between Tivo and iTV. Though, yeah, it costs you $100.

I wonder if I can use this even if I don't have DVD burner... and if it'll work with a DirecTivo (series 2). If the answer to those is yes, then it's worth the $100. If the answer is "yes on lack of DVD burner, but you'll need a different Tivo" ... then maybe not as interesting.

I also wonder if it'll work with multiple Tivo units.

(and, I'm brand new to this community, so I have _no_ idea what the other work arounds give you ... )


----------



## Robyn California

thezippy said:


> More than too little too late, its an insult.


Too true, but you know about David's TiVoDecode Manager, right?

I find it an irony that we Mac users have to go "old school" and build the apps ourselves. You know, if Steve baby makes Leopard compatible with _everything_ then maybe that will finally change the support tune.

You know what our reported US market share is? Apple was expected to sell _1.8 Million Macs_ over the holiday, past.


----------



## Dr_Zoidberg

Puppy76 said:


> I have very little interest in burning shows to DVD (I've only wanted to once, and couldn't get it to work on my PC). So the $100 Toast thing is lame...but on the other hand, the software looks really nice, and it looks like it's actually a much better solution than what you get on Windows.


I'm with you, I don't want DVD burning, and I have no need for yet another remote (My Harmony 880 is all I need, TYVM).

wow. Way to go, TiVo :down:


----------



## derekcbart

There are actually many other deals than the remote. Here is the Roxio MacWorld page:
http://www.roxio.com/enu/promotions/landing/macworld/default.html

I chose a non-TiVo bundle because some of the other software/accessories were more interesting to me.

And yes, I just said a few moments ago that I would be waiting, but when I saw the other deals I decided to order it today. I just have no will power, I guess.


----------



## HIHZia

Either way using Toast 8 or TDM 2.1 it looks like I'm out of luck until I upgrade OS X. Toast requires 10.4.8 and TDM requires at least 10.4. I'm pretty sure my old G4 won't handle 10.5 when it comes out so it may end up requiring a whole new system. That could be good or bad.


----------



## chiefted

johnkzin said:


> I am not sure it's an effort to compete with iTV, as much as it's an effort to be compatible with iTV.
> 
> 1) Toast 8 is going to let you automatically transfer shows from your Tivo to your Mac, and automatically add them to your iTunes library.
> 
> 2) iTV plays video content out of your iTunes library.
> 
> Poof. Instant compatibility between Tivo and iTV. Though, yeah, it costs you $100.


With Elgato's EyeTV software I wind up recording most of my stuff directly onto my Mac.

When I do use my Tivo unit (which is becoming less and less of late with the whole EyeTV thing) using Dave Benesch's I can download the show, and have it automatically placed in my iTunes library.

With both of those things and what ever iTV will finally be called, I have the instant compatibility between Tivo and iTV. Again with Dave Benesh's wonderful software it was free, or rather I won't have to shell out the 100 or what ever dollars for Toast. I did donate to Dave Benesch for the wonderful work he did on TDM.

For me the missing link is the iTV so that if I record it on my Mac I can watch it on a TV without burning a DVD of it. I could pretty much chuck my Tivo at that point.

Don't know if the Toast solution would work without the DVD burner but seriously try TDM (and of course now I don't have the link but its in this over 2000 reply thread somewhere). I think you will be pretty pleased with it.


----------



## chessplayer

Does anyone else find it ironic that playback uses the eyeTV interface?


----------



## nightstrm

No, in the press release it mentions that the software was built in cooperation with ElGato.


----------



## cwoody222

I wonder how much of the 2 year delay was just because TiVo, Inc. refused to accept defeat and bring in some people who actually knew what they were doing?

My guess - about a year and a half. They finally went to Roxio when they missed their mid-2006 deadline. Then Roxio got the job done in less than 6 months.


----------



## johnkzin

chiefted said:


> With Elgato's EyeTV software I wind up recording most of my stuff directly onto my Mac.


I've looked at EyeTV before. But I've had a few reservations about it.

1) No support for DirecTV (their only sat support doesn't work with DSS systems that need a special card)

2) Doesn't have an IR blaster type device to control an external tuner (so I could use it with a DirecTV set-top box)

3) Last time I asked them, EyeTV's software wont schedule across multiple tuners ... so you can't get the "record two planned shows that air at the same time" capability that you have with a dual tuner Tivo.

4) Do you know if it works with iTunes? Last I checked, it didn't, but the last time I looked at EyeTV, iTunes was no yet doing video. If EyeTV was able to feed its content to iTunes, that'd seem like a pretty good integration with iTV. That would only leave out "how do you watch live TV".

If EyeTV has tackled these issues, I'd _love_ to know.


----------



## gonzotek

cwoody222 said:


> I wonder how much of the 2 year delay was just because TiVo, Inc. refused to accept defeat and bring in some people who actually knew what they were doing?
> 
> My guess - about a year and a half. They finally went to Roxio when they missed their mid-2006 deadline. Then Roxio got the job done in less than 6 months.


According to zatz, it was last spring that they turned to Roxio for help:


> After spinning their wheels with content security issues for awhile, they turned to partner Sonic for technical assistance last spring and here we are!


http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2007-01/mac-tivotogo-is-here-by-roxio/#more-1225


----------



## timg

johnkzin said:


> I've looked at EyeTV before. But I've had a few reservations about it.
> 
> 1) No support for DirecTV (their only sat support doesn't work with DSS systems that need a special card)
> 
> 2) Doesn't have an IR blaster type device to control an external tuner (so I could use it with a DirecTV set-top box)
> 
> 3) Last time I asked them, EyeTV's software wont schedule across multiple tuners ... so you can't get the "record two planned shows that air at the same time" capability that you have with a dual tuner Tivo.
> 
> 4) Do you know if it works with iTunes? Last I checked, it didn't, but the last time I looked at EyeTV, iTunes was no yet doing video. If EyeTV was able to feed its content to iTunes, that'd seem like a pretty good integration with iTV. That would only leave out "how do you watch live TV".
> 
> If EyeTV has tackled these issues, I'd _love_ to know.


I have no experience with DirecTV, so can't comment on that.

For the IR blaster, I have heard that there are compatible devices available, but again, no experience.

For recording multiple shows at once, this does work. The only issue is, you need to have 2 or more of the same hardware (eyeTV itself works with el gato hardware and third party hardware)

It also has export to iPod. 1 click will transcode to iPod compatible and add to your iTunes library.

Watching live TV seems to only be possible on the computer. It's also a wonky when you are trying to watch a show that is currently being recorded on a compatible media player (I have an eyeHome also). On the computer, it's no problem.


----------



## johnkzin

timg said:


> For the IR blaster, I have heard that there are compatible devices available, but again, no experience.
> It also has export to iPod. 1 click will transcode to iPod compatible and add to your iTunes library.


re: IR blaster: do you know the names of any of the ones that are compatible with EyeTV?

re: iTunes: 1 click is too many. That means I have to manually make it happen. It should be doable programatically (preferably: as soon as the recording is finished).


----------



## timg

johnkzin said:


> re: IR blaster: do you know the names of any of the ones that are compatible with EyeTV?
> 
> re: iTunes: 1 click is too many. That means I have to manually make it happen. It should be doable programatically (preferably: as soon as the recording is finished).


IR Blaster: Check this page. http://www.vidcan.com/Software/iEyeCaptain.html

iTunes: Maybe you can set it to automatically export, I never looked into it.


----------



## chessplayer

nightstrm said:


> No, in the press release it mentions that the software was built in cooperation with ElGato.


Obviously it was in cooperation with Elgato, I wasn't saying TiVo decided to steal the eyeTV software. I was saying it's funny that playback of TiVo shows is with the eyeTV interface, considering that the eyeTV hardware is the main alternative to TiVo for Mac users.


----------



## Fofer

thezippy said:


> I'm not ready to go TIVO-free, but I'll be calling today and cancelling 1 of my 2 boxes... I can tivo on the bigger box and transfer files to the 2nd over my home network.





SullyND said:


> Assuming both are Series 2 devices, good luck with that.


Why would "good luck" be needed? Does MRV not work between a pair of unhacked boxes if one of them doesn't have service (or doesn't dial in?)

Maybe I'm spoiled with hacked boxes, but MRV works fine for me. Been enjoying a better version of "TiVoToGo" on my Mac for a couple of years now, too.

I don't like companies that make me wait, and lie about their commitment.


----------



## Turtleboy

I don't think MRV works with an unsubbed box.


----------



## SnakeEyes

Last I heard nothing worked with an unsubbed box if it were series 2 or newer.


----------



## sayonaraML

I've always kept Toast up to date so upgrading to 8 was going to happen one way or the other and with an inclination already to get a new remote, the 'glow' remote package was reasonable enough so that I jumped on it. So for 90.00, I get TivoToGo on both my desktop and laptop, no need to worry about codecs as the viewer works nicely, decent speed on Tivo transfer and surprisingly quick burning. I hate to say it (well maybe not hate) but the solution works well enough for me that the only resentment I have is what took them (Tivo) so long.


----------



## bioshazard

Puppy76 said:


> I have very little interest in burning shows to DVD (I've only wanted to once, and couldn't get it to work on my PC). So the $100 Toast thing is lame...but on the other hand, the software looks really nice, and it looks like it's actually a much better solution than what you get on Windows.


Yeah, it's probably better, (mostly because it's not on Windows), but the simple fact is that, after being strung along for years, and being PROMISED that TiVo To Go was coming, we get told, "Hey, guys, look at this big favor that we did for you! We finally got it working! Now give us a hundred bucks so you can do what Windows users have been able to do for free since forever ago!

Bastards. I'm cancelling one of my boxes tomorrow, and putting it up on eBay.


----------



## sobenski

SnakeEyes said:


> Last I heard nothing worked with an unsubbed box if it were series 2 or newer.


Is this true?  Considering how much the boxes cost, that would be pretty disappointing. I thought if you didn't subscribe they just limit you to only 3 days of program info, and cut off a few features, something like that?


----------



## sobenski

Fofer said:


> Eh. I'll wait until it works with Series 3. (It probably never will.)
> QUOTE]
> 
> It would be pretty sweet to be able to burn S3 Tivo recordings to a blu-ray disc. But first things first, I am just dying to be able to watch my S3 from my Mac in the other room. I hope Tivo can enable TTG on the S3 soon.... and if it doesn't work on the Mac, I am going to scream....


----------



## cwoody222

sobenski said:


> Is this true?  Considering how much the boxes cost, that would be pretty disappointing. I thought if you didn't subscribe they just limit you to only 3 days of program info, and cut off a few features, something like that?


Only older Series1 units and DVD units with "TiVo Basic" included. Series2 and beyond do nothing without subscriptions.


----------



## MacBrian

bioshazard said:


> Now give us a hundred bucks so you can do what Windows users have been able to do for free since forever ago!
> 
> Bastards. I'm cancelling one of my boxes tomorrow, and putting it up on eBay.


Wow, what a bunch of negative nellies some of you have been after this announcement!  I, for one, am thrilled with the announcement and jumped right on the Toast bundle that includes the glowing Tivo remote. :up:

I'm primarily a Mac guy and have been since the "FatMac 512k", but have five PeeCees under my roof and one souped-up G4 Mac. (Most of the PeeCees were garage-sale bargains.) I bought Sonic's MyDVD ($50, as I recall!) AND a codec for MPG playback specifically so I could burn DVDs from a Series II Tivo. What a MISERABLE experience it was. MyDVD was sluggish even on a fast machine, and trying to do something as simple as edit out commercials made for hours and hours of frustration. Even just setting chapter points at the end of commercial breaks was frustrating.

Ultimately I sold my Series II and got a Lifetime 80-hour Humax unit so I could burn DVDs painlessly. I've hacked my S1 box with a 350 Gb hard drive and all the necessary utilities, so no problem transferring shows from it.

With this announcement, and ALL the other GREAT improvements to the Toast bundle of apps, this makes me feel like it's Christmas morning all over again! 

And c'mon, one hundred dollars?? DealMac shows today that if you're upgrading, the total price is $37.99 after rebates. If you're buying new, the total price is $57.99 after rebate. What a deal!!

So I just don't get why all the whining? This deal works out to be CHEAPER than what you claim "Windows users have been able to do for free". (MyDVD + codec = $70.) And with the Toast suite of applications, the experience on a Mac is FAR happier and certainly more productive than anything I've done with Windows ("officially" or otherwise with 3rd party apps).

So...stop the whining. Place your Toast order while the Expo deals are still good, and let the sun shine in in the age of Mac+Tivo!


----------



## FreedMegabyte

Woo Whoo! What a fluke, I purchased Toast 8 just to upgrade from 5, 01/09/06, in the AM from MMall. Then I got the TiVo email announcing it was in cahoots with them, sweet! Yes "TivoBrian" Santa came twice! I can't wait to try it out today.


----------



## Figaro

TivoBrian said:


> Wow, what a bunch of negative nellies some of you have been after this announcement!  I, for one, am thrilled with the announcement and jumped right on the Toast bundle that includes the glowing Tivo remote. :up:
> 
> I'm primarily a Mac guy and have been since the "FatMac 512k", but have five PeeCees under my roof and one souped-up G4 Mac. (Most of the PeeCees were garage-sale bargains.) I bought Sonic's MyDVD ($50, as I recall!) AND a codec for MPG playback specifically so I could burn DVDs from a Series II Tivo. What a MISERABLE experience it was. MyDVD was sluggish even on a fast machine, and trying to do something as simple as edit out commercials made for hours and hours of frustration. Even just setting chapter points at the end of commercial breaks was frustrating.
> 
> Ultimately I sold my Series II and got a Lifetime 80-hour Humax unit so I could burn DVDs painlessly. I've hacked my S1 box with a 350 Gb hard drive and all the necessary utilities, so no problem transferring shows from it.
> 
> With this announcement, and ALL the other GREAT improvements to the Toast bundle of apps, this makes me feel like it's Christmas morning all over again!
> 
> And c'mon, one hundred dollars?? DealMac shows today that if you're upgrading, the total price is $37.99 after rebates. If you're buying new, the total price is $57.99 after rebate. What a deal!!
> 
> So I just don't get why all the whining? This deal works out to be CHEAPER than what you claim "Windows users have been able to do for free". (MyDVD + codec = $70.) And with the Toast suite of applications, the experience on a Mac is FAR happier and certainly more productive than anything I've done with Windows ("officially" or otherwise with 3rd party apps).
> 
> So...stop the whining. Place your Toast order while the Expo deals are still good, and let the sun shine in in the age of Mac+Tivo!


Perhaps the whining is because TiVo promised to deliver this functionality themselves for free. Now without a word from TiVo we find out we have to buy it for a 100$. What if you don't want to burn stuff and just want the transfer capability? Why the hell should we have to buy the entire toast bundle? I don't need toast to burn anything, so why should I have to buy it? I have better things to spend my money on be it $50, $70, or $100.

I think you need to put the Kool Aid down and rethink this from that perspective.


----------



## Dr_Zoidberg

TivoBrian said:


> So...stop the whining. Place your Toast order while the Expo deals are still good, and let the sun shine in in the age of Mac+Tivo!


It may be shiny for you, but not for me.

The functionality I want out of TTG costs Windows Users $24.95, and I went that route. There is NO incentive to spend an additional $100 or so (discounts/rebates aside) just to have the functionality I need on a Mac, especially when there's freeware already available. I would have purchased the functionality if it were the same price as the Windows version. I don't care about burning the shows to DVD.

TiVo's series 3 is too expensive, and TTG doesn't even work on it on Windows or OS x. There's no incentive to upgrade r buy anything else. Since I have lifetime service (I knew better), I'm not spending another dime on anything TiVo related.

I say they're pricing themselves out of the market on too many fronts!


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

One of the various geek blogs I looked at this morning (although I'm at a loss to find the link at the moment) mentioned that Roxio is open to the idea of shipping _just_ the transfer and playback features as a separate product independent of Toast, if there was enough interest.

Perhaps you should express interest, assuming you are interested, of course.


----------



## TheSlyBear

TivoBrian said:


> DealMac shows today that if you're upgrading, the total price is $37.99 after rebates. If you're buying new, the total price is $57.99 after rebate. What a deal!


Please post the details on getting the $37.99 upgrade price. I was unable to finagle this.


----------



## gonzotek

Figaro said:


> Perhaps the whining is because TiVo promised to deliver this functionality themselves for free.


What? When did they ever promise it would be free?


> Now without a word from TiVo we find out we have to buy it for a 100$.


The third party windows mpeg2 codecs that were offered for sale with the first version of TTG, the TD Plus paid upgrade and the Sonic MyDVD burning software for windows didn't suggest to you that there was a remote possibility mac users might have to pay something for the feature set?


> What if you don't want to burn stuff and just want the transfer capability?


You can transfer to and from a mac without paying a dime, using safari and/or TiVoDecodeManager to download and TiVo Desktop (with video sharing enabled) to upload.


> Why the hell should we have to buy the entire toast bundle? I don't need toast to burn anything, so why should I have to buy it? I have better things to spend my money on be it $50, $70, or $100.


If you don't need it, just don't buy it. For someone who just wants everything to work, and in a Mac-like way, Toast is a good choice. But there are other (free) options, and TiVo (to the best of my knowledge) never promised a 'free' solution.


----------



## Figaro

gonzotek said:


> What? When did they ever promise it would be free?The third party windows mpeg2 codecs that were offered for sale with the first version of TTG, the TD Plus paid upgrade and the Sonic MyDVD burning software for windows didn't suggest to you that there was a remote possibility mac users might have to pay something for the feature set?You can transfer to and from a mac without paying a dime, using safari and/or TiVoDecodeManager to download and TiVo Desktop (with video sharing enabled) to upload.If you don't need it, just don't buy it. For someone who just wants everything to work, and in a Mac-like way, Toast is a good choice. But there are other (free) options, and TiVo (to the best of my knowledge) never promised a 'free' solution.


I was always under the impression that TTG on the PC was free for the basic functionality. If I am wrong in this regard please excuse me.

TivoDecodeManager is cool for a hack but the sound gets borked up pretty good in it. I would prefer a solid solution from Tivo.

I don't care about burning so I don't care that PC people had to pay for burning stuff.

Basically what I wanted from TiVo was some Mac support since they seem to have none. I could accept that if they weren't always claiming to care about mac users.


----------



## Puppy76

Is this ANY version of Toast 8 that includes this, or just some "special" Tivoed version?



Figaro said:


> I was always under the impression that TTG on the PC was free for the basic functionality. If I am wrong in this regard please excuse me.


Yep, Tivo Desktop is free so you'd just officially have to buy the burning and iPod converting products.



> TivoDecodeManager is cool for a hack but the sound gets borked up pretty good in it. I would prefer a solid solution from Tivo.


I've had that problem on PC with lots of conversion methods. Tivo audio is weird 

Honestly Toast 8 seems great to me at least from the screenshots. It stinks you have to pay for the basic transfer functionality, but other than that it looks WAY better than the equivalent Windows methods (including Tivo Desktop). I wonder if it has junk running in the background? That's another thing I dislike about Tivo Desktop-it's always running stuff in the background on Windows. That might be another advantage of Toast.

Though I sure wish it didn't cost $100! (Looks like Amazon will probably have it for $ 70 when they have it, but still, that's really expensive...hope it's not one of those programs that breaks when Apple update the OS).


----------



## ccoulson

bootedbear said:


> Please post the details on getting the $37.99 upgrade price. I was unable to finagle this.


Here: http://dealmac.com/deals/Roxio-Toas...ped-after-rebate-38-for-upgraders/149051.html


----------



## gonzotek

Figaro said:


> I was always under the impression that TTG on the PC was free for the basic functionality. If I am wrong in this regard please excuse me.
> 
> TivoDecodeManager is cool for a hack but the sound gets borked up pretty good in it. I would prefer a solid solution from Tivo.
> 
> I don't care about burning so I don't care that PC people had to pay for burning stuff.
> 
> Basically what I wanted from TiVo was some Mac support since they seem to have none. I could accept that if they weren't always claiming to care about mac users.


To playback mpeg2 content on a mac or a pc requires having a functional mpeg2 codec. Many pcs already have an mpeg2 codec due to having a dvd drive and software. Legally, no one can offer an mpeg2 codec without paying licensing fees, per unit, to MPEG-LA, so even if your pc already had a codec, you've technically already paid for it in the price of the computer, dvd drive and/or software. If you didn't have one, TiVo originally offered links to several third-party codecs for sale that supposedly would work with .tivo files(although many people had various problems with these). With TiVo Desktop Plus, they included a built-in mpeg2 codec that would be guaranteed to work with .tivo files, but you had to pay to enable it. Buying TiVo Desktop Plus also enabled conversion to other formats not natively supported by Windows. Windows XP with Windows Media Player 10 or greater provides free (to developers and users) hooks to convert video to wmv, so this functionality was enabled without purchasing TD+. On a Mac, Apple is willing to sell you a mpeg2 quicktime component, but it has several crippling limitations (by Apple's own admission), and in any event is incapable of playing back a .tivo file (we're ignoring the .tivo file encryption for the purpose of the this part of the discussion...the apple mpeg2 quicktime component simply won't work on a decrypted tivo file, as well as other varieties of perfectly valid mpeg2 data). So, at the absolute minimum, for TiVo to legally offer any kind of mac playback means they would have to license and pay for an mpeg2 decoder for each user that is using the feature. Economically, TiVo simply can't absorb that cost, and must pass it on to the users. Or they could contract with a third party to develop the feature-set and allow them to charge for their product, and consequently pay the licensing fees as applicable, which is what they've done.


----------



## Figaro

gonzotek said:


> To playback mpeg2 content on a mac or a pc requires having a functional mpeg2 codec. Many pcs already have an mpeg2 codec due to having a dvd drive and software. Legally, no one can offer an mpeg2 codec without paying licensing fees, per unit, to MPEG-LA, so even if your pc already had a codec, you've technically already paid for it in the price of the computer, dvd drive and/or software. If you didn't have one, TiVo originally offered links to several third-party codecs for sale that supposedly would work with .tivo files(although many people had various problems with these). With TiVo Desktop Plus, they included a built-in mpeg2 codec that would be guaranteed to work with .tivo files, but you had to pay to enable it. Buying TiVo Desktop Plus also enabled conversion to other formats not natively supported by Windows. Windows XP with Windows Media Player 10 or greater provides free (to developers and users) hooks to convert video to wmv, so this functionality was enabled without purchasing TD+. On a Mac, Apple is willing to sell you a mpeg2 quicktime component, but it has several crippling limitations (by Apple's own admission), and in any event is incapable of playing back a .tivo file (we're ignoring the .tivo file encryption for the purpose of the this part of the discussion...the apple mpeg2 quicktime component simply won't work on a decrypted tivo file, as well as other varieties of perfectly valid mpeg2 data). So, at the absolute minimum, for TiVo to legally offer any kind of mac playback means they would have to license and pay for an mpeg2 decoder for each user that is using the feature. Economically, TiVo simply can't absorb that cost, and must pass it on to the users. Or they could contract with a third party to develop the feature-set and allow them to charge for their product, and consequently pay the licensing fees as applicable, which is what they've done.


Sooooo why do I have to pay a hundred bucks for it?


----------



## gonzotek

Figaro said:


> Sooooo why do I have to pay a hundred bucks for it?


Because that's what Roxio thinks the entire Toast suite is worth, and that is how they've elected to package the TiVo features. Dennis Wilkinson mentioned, a couple of posts back, that they might be considering breaking out the playback and transfer components and offering them seperately, he advises using their contact form to request that option.


----------



## Figaro

gonzotek said:


> Because that's what Roxio thinks the entire Toast suite is worth, and that is how they've elected to package the TiVo features. Dennis Wilkinson mentioned, a couple of posts back, that they might be considering breaking out the playback and transfer components and offering them seperately, he advises using their contact form to request that option.


Sooooo if the hackers have been able to make this work on their own why does TiVo have to outsource to Roxio?


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Figaro said:


> Sooooo if the hackers have been able to make this work on their own why does TiVo have to outsource to Roxio?


What does one have to do with the other? The two (hackers and TiVo) have two different, incompatible goals.


----------



## Figaro

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> What does one have to do with the other? The two (hackers and TiVo) have two different, incompatible goals.


Because people are saying that TiVo had to get outside help to do this, that it would have been impossible for them to do it on the Mac. I think that is bs. They could have done this even if they had to sell it for $20 because of a codec. Instead they chose to pass it off to Roxio.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Figaro said:


> Because people are saying that TiVo had to get outside help to do this, that it would have been impossible for them to do it on the Mac. I think that is bs. They could have done this even if they had to sell it for $20 because of a codec. Instead they chose to pass it off to Roxio.


Again, what does "the hackers being able to do it" have to do with TiVo going to Roxio for the Mac implementation? All the hackers did was provide decryption. No mean feat, to be sure, but that's hardly the tough part from TiVo's standpoint, since they already know how things were encrypted.

It's been gone over in the past (in this thread, even) why delivering something feature-comparable with the Windows version would be challenging, if not impossible, with QuickTime and the iApps. Note that that is quite different from saying it was "impossible on the Mac", which I don't believe a single informed person has claimed. It sounds as if TiVo tried, and failed, to go that route. It happens. TiVo wanted to deliver something that offered the same features as the Windows version (basically: transfer, playback, transcode, and DVD burning) it doesn't seem unreasonable that, if they're going to go to an outside company for help, that they'd go to Roxio, who could deliver both the DVD burning part of the equation as well as the playback portion (through Roxio's preexisting relationship with Elgato.)

Could TiVo have rolled all of this in-house? Probably, given (even more) time and a lot more money. Outsourcing to a competent third party is hardly an evil thing to do. They've done it on the Windows side as well, bundling several third party codecs in the TiVo Desktop Plus version (the one that actually includes the needed MPEG2 codecs and iPod transcoding codecs, and, surprise!, is not free.)


----------



## Figaro

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Again, what does "the hackers being able to do it" have to do with TiVo going to Roxio for the Mac implementation? All the hackers did was provide decryption. No mean feat, to be sure, but that's hardly the tough part from TiVo's standpoint, since they already know how things were encrypted.
> 
> It's been gone over in the past (in this thread, even) why delivering something feature-comparable with the Windows version would be challenging, if not impossible, with QuickTime and the iApps. Note that that is quite different from saying it was "impossible on the Mac", which I don't believe a single informed person has claimed. It sounds as if TiVo tried, and failed, to go that route. It happens. TiVo wanted to deliver something that offered the same features as the Windows version (basically: transfer, playback, transcode, and DVD burning) it doesn't seem unreasonable that, if they're going to go to an outside company for help, that they'd go to Roxio, who could deliver both the DVD burning part of the equation as well as the playback portion (through Roxio's preexisting relationship with Elgato.)
> 
> Could TiVo have rolled all of this in-house? Probably, given (even more) time and a lot more money. Outsourcing to a competent third party is hardly an evil thing to do. They've done it on the Windows side as well, bundling several third party codecs in the TiVo Desktop Plus version (the one that actually includes the needed MPEG2 codecs and iPod transcoding codecs, and, surprise!, is not free.)


So why not bundle a codec on the mac side instead of handing it off to someone who wants a hundred bucks for it?


----------



## cwoody222

TiVo couldn't (or wouldn't put the resources towards) pull it off themselves. They don't have the (Mac programming) talent in-house.

They should. They don't.

So they ended up running to Roxio for help.

And us - the consumer - suffer - because both Roxio and TiVo need to make $$$ off us now.

TiVo got in over their head and Roxio bailed them out. That's the story. If you believe otherwise, you're giving TiVo way too much credit.


----------



## Figaro

cwoody222 said:


> TiVo couldn't (or wouldn't put the resources towards) pull it off themselves. They don't have the (Mac programming) talent in-house.
> 
> They should. They don't.
> 
> So they ended up running to Roxio for help.
> 
> And us - the consumer - suffer - because both Roxio and TiVo need to make $$$ off us now.
> 
> TiVo got in over their head and Roxio bailed them out. That's the story. If you believe otherwise, you're giving TiVo way too much credit.


Oh I don't believe otherwise. I just wish that they would admit that they screwed the pooch on this instead of acting like nothing happened.


----------



## cwoody222

Well, it's not like "nothing" happened. Remember all that time when they were "working hard"?

hahahaha

(trying to look up Roxio's number in the yellow pages, most likely)


----------



## homertime

I just wanted to mention it was passed off to Roxio and Elgato.


EyeTV software actually plays the Tivo Files. The Roxio Program is what downloads it and converts it to DVD, iPod, or PSP format.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Figaro said:


> Oh I don't believe otherwise. I just wish that they would admit that they screwed the pooch on this instead of acting like nothing happened.


You mean like telling bloggers like Dave Zatz that they couldn't make it work themselves (or, at least not in anything resembling a timely manner)?



ZatzNotFunny said:


> Product Directors Amir Gharaat (TiVo) and Adam Fingerman (Roxio) got me up to speed last week during a conference call.
> 
> As we know, Mac TiVoToGo is looooong overdue so my first question was: What happened? If you recall, we saw an alpha version at CES last year which looks nothing like what theyve just devliered. As I suspected, the main sticking point was TiVos inability to keep the media locked down (as they do using Microsoft DirectShow on Windows). After spinning their wheels with content security issues for awhile, they turned to partner Sonic for technical assistance last spring and here we are!


----------



## Figaro

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> You mean like telling bloggers like Dave Zatz that they couldn't make it work themselves (or, at least not in anything resembling a timely manner)?


I don't consider bloggers a news source. Perhaps they could have mentioned something in the spam email that they sent me bragging about TTG for the Mac being available?

Why are you being such an apologist for TiVo?


----------



## shelbel

> Why are you being such an apologist for TiVo?


I don't think he's being an apologist, I think he's reacting to some of the hostility that's cropping up on this thread. I know we've seen at least one interview w/ TiVo High-ups admitting that they should have been able to provide a solution sooner. Are they gonna tack on an apology with the announcement of the Roxio solution? Of course not. That's not the way _any_ business would announce a new feature. Period.

Let's face it, TiVo's walking a tightrope here. They're trying to expand their features and services in order to compete w/the TiFaux products, but they've also got to reassure the content providers that their interests will be protected, and all the while try to make a profit for the investors. And if everyone acquires a DVR and timeshifts without commercials, then the industry will have to shift to a new structure (iTunes, anyone?) which will deliver programs directly to the user and TiVo's at risk of being a dinosaur. So while it was unfortunate that we all had to wait longer--and yes, I was one of the very angry ones at having to wait--it's understandable that that TiVo found it a good business decision to offer a significant feature to the majority of its consumers, and it's not that hard to imagine that the DRM etc. proved to be more difficult than they could handle.

So let's all be happy for a moment. At least for now, those of us who want no-frills TTG have the workarounds, and they cost, let's see... nothing, unless you choose to donate for the hard work put into them. And for those of us who want more features, _features that PC users had to pay for as well_, there's Toast for not that much $$$$, really, particularly if you have a need/use for any of the special deals they're offering this week. Enough people have passed through this thread calling Mac users whiners; let's not justify that by continuing to complain now that we've got what we want.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson

Figaro said:


> Why are you being such an apologist for TiVo?


You asked why they would have gone to Roxio. I answered with one possible reason, based on the evidence at hand. I've also tried to fill in some of the blanks technically, since I spent a long time writing code in the video market and have done a lot of QuickTime and codec work.

You asked why they haven't admitted that they weren't able to do it themselves. I noted that they have (whether you accept bloggers as "reporting" or not is rather beside the point -- this type of admission isn't exactly something that companies trumpet from the ramparts.)

That's not being an apologist; that's contributing to the discussion. I'm simply not filled with righteous anger over the issue, that's all (and that's mostly because I don't find TTG a terribly compelling feature for my own use more than anything else.)

Full disclosure: I did go out an buy Toast 8 (at nowhere near the full retail) -- but that's because I use Toast fairly regularly.


----------



## Figaro

shelbel said:


> I don't think he's being an apologist, I think he's reacting to some of the hostility that's cropping up on this thread. I know we've seen at least one interview w/ TiVo High-ups admitting that they should have been able to provide a solution sooner. Are they gonna tack on an apology with the announcement of the Roxio solution? Of course not. That's not the way _any_ business would announce a new feature. Period.
> 
> Let's face it, TiVo's walking a tightrope here. They're trying to expand their features and services in order to compete w/the TiFaux products, but they've also got to reassure the content providers that their interests will be protected, and all the while try to make a profit for the investors. And if everyone acquires a DVR and timeshifts without commercials, then the industry will have to shift to a new structure (iTunes, anyone?) which will deliver programs directly to the user and TiVo's at risk of being a dinosaur. So while it was unfortunate that we all had to wait longer--and yes, I was one of the very angry ones at having to wait--it's understandable that that TiVo found it a good business decision to offer a significant feature to the majority of its consumers, and it's not that hard to imagine that the DRM etc. proved to be more difficult than they could handle.
> 
> So let's all be happy for a moment. At least for now, those of us who want no-frills TTG have the workarounds, and they cost, let's see... nothing, unless you choose to donate for the hard work put into them. And for those of us who want more features, _features that PC users had to pay for as well_, there's Toast for not that much $$$$, really, particularly if you have a need/use for any of the special deals they're offering this week. Enough people have passed through this thread calling Mac users whiners; let's not justify that by continuing to complain now that we've got what we want.


Not a whining Mac user. Just a TiVo user who has had enough of their business practices. This was the final nail. I will never buy another TiVo product again.


----------



## MacBrian

shelbel said:


> So let's all be happy for a moment. At least for now, those of us who want no-frills TTG have the workarounds, and they cost, let's see... nothing, unless you choose to donate for the hard work put into them. And for those of us who want more features, _features that PC users had to pay for as well_, there's Toast for not that much $$$$, really, particularly if you have a need/use for any of the special deals they're offering this week. Enough people have passed through this thread calling Mac users whiners; let's not justify that by continuing to complain now that we've got what we want.


 :up: AMEN, brother! Well said!

My Toast 8 and glowing remote arrived at my door today, and that was with "standard" shipping after ordering on Tuesday morning immediately after the announcement! Whoo-hoo!!!!! A great weekend project to keep me indoors while Mother Nature pounds Kansas with the next winter blast.


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## juanian

Why did TiVo have to outsource to Roxio? TiVo went to the (best?) DVD writer for Macs - Toast. And Toast (which is now owned by Roxio) is also now owned by Sonic, which did the TiVo-sanctioned PC flavor of DVD writing (let's not talk about the possibly better DVD software from Nero).

But let's look at the bottom line: Why couldn't TiVo use QuickTime for decoding? I guess you need to look at the big A for that one. Certainly, TiVo would have liked to be compatible with QuickTime, which would have allowed programs to be edited and viewed uwing QuickTime and be compatible with the iLife suite to be able to edit/manipulate and burn DVDs. But, since Apple can't (?won't?) support the wider flavors of MPEG-2 used by TiVo (or other folks), TiVo was left with only VLC to allow .TiVo files to be viewable. (Now, when will VLC support the TiVo decoding so it can play .TiVo files 'directly' (well, after entering the MAK).) Maybe TiVo has been patiently waiting for Apple to 'open up'. Foolish little TiVo.

(Sorry I'm rambling in odd directions -- I'm a bit stir-crazy sitting in this hotel room for a few days waiting for the roads to open in the west half of Texas so I can get home.)


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## MacNAround

shelbel said:


> let's not justify that by continuing to complain now that we've got what we want.


I unfortunately ran into a problem AFTER buying Toast 8 to use TiVoToGo. It does not support DirecTV DVRs with TiVo. Nothing is mentioned on tivo's or roxio's website about this. You only are made aware of this after you buy the software and are running the installer.

Here is where I started a thread about it in the DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs forum:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=336858

Maybe I will start a new thread in this forum so that others won't make the mistake I did.


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## Puppy76

MacNAround said:


> I unfortunately ran into a problem AFTER buying Toast 8 to use TiVoToGo. It does not support DirecTV DVRs with TiVo. Nothing is mentioned on tivo's or roxio's website about this. You only are made aware of this after you buy the software and are running the installer.
> 
> Here is where I started a thread about it in the DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs forum:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=336858
> 
> Maybe I will start a new thread in this forum so that others won't make the mistake I did.


DirectTVs haven't been updated in forever, and have never supported Tivo 2 Go (or tons of other features). DirectTV has been killing them off in favor of their homegrown inferior DVR.


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## shelbel

> I unfortunately ran into a problem AFTER buying Toast 8 to use TiVoToGo. It does not support DirecTV DVRs with TiVo. Nothing is mentioned on tivo's or roxio's website about this. You only are made aware of this after you buy the software and are running the installer.


I'm sorry this happened to you, MacNAround. I think they ought to have a disclaimer in bold print somewhere near the "buy" button when there's a major incompatibility with something. If you wouldn't otherwise have bought/used Toast, it would be worth contacting the source you purchased it from to try for a refund. I know, opened software is opened software, but if they didn't tell you upfront it wouldn't be compatibile, then you have to open the box to find out you can't use it.


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## gonzotek

MacNAround said:


> I unfortunately ran into a problem AFTER buying Toast 8 to use TiVoToGo. It does not support DirecTV DVRs with TiVo. Nothing is mentioned on tivo's or roxio's website about this. You only are made aware of this after you buy the software and are running the installer.
> 
> Here is where I started a thread about it in the DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs forum:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=336858
> 
> Maybe I will start a new thread in this forum so that others won't make the mistake I did.


If you use the main Roxio site to navigate to their Toast page, a System Requirements tab does indicate that Directv dvrs with TiVo service will not work with it. But if you use the link TiVo provides from their TiVo Desktop page, you will not encounter that text. Neither will you find that requirement mentioned on Amazon or Buy.com ( well, buy.com does link to a pdf file that mentions it, but the link to the file doesn't suggest that you will find system requirements buried in it).

TiVo should have this information marked clearly on their Mac TTG page, as well as inform Roxio that their page is missing the information as well( and the distributors' pages too!).


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## Fofer

sobenski said:


> I am just dying to be able to watch my S3 from my Mac in the other room.


Add a Slingbox?


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## MacNAround

gonzotek said:


> If you use the main Roxio site to navigate to their Toast page, a System Requirements tab does indicate that Directv dvrs with TiVo service will not work with it. But if you use the link TiVo provides from their TiVo Desktop page, you will not encounter that text. Neither will you find that requirement mentioned on Amazon or Buy.com ( well, buy.com does link to a pdf file that mentions it, but the link to the file doesn't suggest that you will find system requirements buried in it).
> 
> TiVo should have this information marked clearly on their Mac TTG page, as well as inform Roxio that their page is missing the information as well( and the distributors' pages too!).


roxio is willing to work with me given this situation. I did go back after getting the message during installation and that message was not under system requirements when I looked...I specifically looked there. They must have updated the site (thanks for updating the site roxio)

In fact, Pat @ roxio said that he will get the Mac user target page (for TiVoToGo in Toast) updated with the same information about no go for DirecTiVos. You can see his response over here in this same forum (if you'd like) in this thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=337033

I don't like keeping this thread alive that you are reading now because there IS now TiVoToGo support for Macs.
Thanks roxio and TiVo for making software for the Mac to work with many TiVos.


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## patatrox

MacNAround said:


> In fact, Pat @ roxio said that he will get the Mac user target page (for TiVoToGo in Toast) updated with the same information about no go for DirecTiVos.


That went live yesterday and is part of the requirements on that landing page.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention!


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## sobenski

Fofer said:


> Add a Slingbox?


Yeah, I've been eyeing a Slingbox for a long time. But it seems like overkill to spend $300 on it for a feature that Tivo will hopefully be adding soon. Maybe if I start to travel more for work I would get it for Internet streaming features.

Also, even though the Slingbox Pro is supposedly HD Tivo compatible, the quality that it can transmit depends upon your home network and internet connection speed. (Tivo to Go wouldn't have this limitation assuming it lets you actually copy the files to your hard drive before playnig) I read somewhere that the Slingbox Prio couldn't even do HD video across a 100Mbps home network.... Anyone know if that's true, or where to get more detailed Slingbox data on network requirements? (I'm not even close to that; I can't run wiring acorss my apartment, and I can't use a powerline adapter since the living room and bed rooms are on different circuits... so, I'm stuck with wireless and would need to upgrade everything to 802.11n to get the speeds necessary for HD, and of course that's an added expense even if the n spec hardware were stable...)


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## Budget_HT

sobenski said:


> Yeah, I've been eyeing a Slingbox for a long time. But it seems like overkill to spend $300 on it for a feature that Tivo will hopefully be adding soon. Maybe if I start to travel more for work I would get it for Internet streaming features.
> 
> Also, even though the Slingbox Pro is supposedly HD Tivo compatible, the quality that it can transmit depends upon your home network and internet connection speed. (Tivo to Go wouldn't have this limitation assuming it lets you actually copy the files to your hard drive before playnig) I read somewhere that the Slingbox Prio couldn't even do HD video across a 100Mbps home network.... Anyone know if that's true, or where to get more detailed Slingbox data on network requirements? (I'm not even close to that; I can't run wiring acorss my apartment, and I can't use a powerline adapter since the living room and bed rooms are on different circuits... so, I'm stuck with wireless and would need to upgrade everything to 802.11n to get the speeds necessary for HD, and of course that's an added expense even if the n spec hardware were stable...)


According to this article ...
http://www.slingcommunity.com/article/15265/The-Slingbox-PRO-Review/
... and other reviews I have read, it looks like the maximum video resolution within a LAN is 640x480. Across the internet the resolution is limited to 320x240.

Compatible with HD (1080i and 720p) means that you can use those input resolutions with the dongle and the Slingbox Pro will downconvert them to 640x480--widescreen where appropriate.

So, an HD input signal, streamed over a LAN with sufficient bandwidth, will yield near-DVD quality on the PC or Mac viewer.

That is how I understand it. Anyone with real experience or more knowledge could correct me if needed. I am only repeating what I have read. I am, however, considering purchase of a Slingbox Pro.


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## donsullivan

Budget_HT said:


> According to this article ...
> http://www.slingcommunity.com/article/15265/The-Slingbox-PRO-Review/
> ... and other reviews I have read, it looks like the maximum video resolution within a LAN is 640x480. Across the internet the resolution is limited to 320x240.
> 
> Compatible with HD (1080i and 720p) means that you can use those input resolutions with the dongle and the Slingbox Pro will downconvert them to 640x480--widescreen where appropriate.
> 
> So, an HD input signal, streamed over a LAN with sufficient bandwidth, will yield near-DVD quality on the PC or Mac viewer.
> 
> That is how I understand it. Anyone with real experience or more knowledge could correct me if needed. I am only repeating what I have read. I am, however, considering purchase of a Slingbox Pro.


The facts you've got are essentially correct. I do a whole lot of travel and have come to find the SlingBox indispensible. I've got an AV connected to a DTiVo which gives me the best of all worlds. I can record what I want, watch it when I want and where I want.

The latest hardware and software configurations actually do a really good job of optimizing on the fly to give you the best possible quality based on the performance of the network connection you have to the box. If I use it at home the video quality is the same as on the TV at about 4,000k bandwidth utilization. If I use it on the road it constrains to ~400k which is limited by the upstream bandwidth on my cable model.

I've done things like watched GMA at 5AM on the west coast or when I get back to the room, pick up a movie that I've recorded and watch it on the laptop. It is even usable with the wireless broadband card in my laptop so I can watch pretty much anywhere I want.

The Mac client is still in a Public Beta mode but it's absolutely stable enough for regular use without any major issues that I've seen.


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## atsang

i have a slingbox pro with hd dongle and a Tivo S3, and I'd say that the quality on my Mac Slingplayer is like watching a divx version of the original broadcast.

I'm getting a 5000kbps stream over an airport express wireless connection. So yes, HD streams quite well.


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## PoohLuvsTIVO

We have had TIVOs since they were introduced. We switched to cable DVR for a while because they had Hi-Def. As soon as TIVO came out with it we bout the HDTV TIVO and switched back.  We are on our sixth TIVO and have talked many many people into purchasing TIVO as well as giving them as gifts to our friends and family. 

But..... For TIVO to ignore Macs is just plain stupid. :mad  Lets see..... If we are talking about music who has the lions share of the music market? I-Pod!  Now lets see... Who makes I-Pod? Mac! TIVOs lackof support for Macs is just plain stupid! They need to realize they are no longer the only game in town and cater to ALL TIVO users not just the ones who have not discovered that Macs are 100 times better and more stable than Microsoft products.


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## Fofer

Well, PoohLuvsTIVO, this thread title (and much of it's content) is now outdated. Mac users no longer "lack TiVo togo support" (at least with the standard definition Series 2 TiVos.) We got it this month, from Roxio and Toast 8.


The HD TiVos are an entirely new beast, and they lack TiVoToGo on both platforms, Mac and PC.


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## djdickmutt

When is TiVoToGo going to be supported for Series3 HD TiVos? I spent all this money on a new TiVo, and I have a Mac, and they finally release TiVoToGo for Macs, and NOW IT'S NOT AVAILABLE ON MY BRIGHT AND SHINY NEW TIVO?!?? Someone will pay for this.


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## Puppy76

djdickmutt said:


> When is TiVoToGo going to be supported for Series3 HD TiVos? I spent all this money on a new TiVo, and I have a Mac, and they finally release TiVoToGo for Macs, and NOW IT'S NOT AVAILABLE ON MY BRIGHT AND SHINY NEW TIVO?!?? Someone will pay for this.


That's why I didn't buy a Series 3. I would have when they let you transfer your lifetime from your S2 to the S3, but I would never buy a DVR that doesn't let you watch your recordings somewhere else.

It's probably related to the cablecard thing. Since I will never use cable, I'd prefer it if they released an S3 without cablecards but with Tivo2Go.

I'd actually buy that...if it had lifetime or cheap monthly service.

As it is now, I doubt I'll replace my Tivo if it dies.


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## schalliol

Easy there, killer.


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## cwoody222

djdickmutt said:


> When is TiVoToGo going to be supported for Series3 HD TiVos? I spent all this money on a new TiVo, and I have a Mac, and they finally release TiVoToGo for Macs, and NOW IT'S NOT AVAILABLE ON MY BRIGHT AND SHINY NEW TIVO?!?? Someone will pay for this.


Um yea, YOU will.

TiVo never stated that Series3 would support ToGo now or even in the future.

If you didn't know that - your fault.


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## TydalForce

TiVoToGo on the Series3 is being held up by the fine folks at Cable Labs. Since the Series 3 uses CableCARDs, anything that brings video into the S3, takes video off the S3 (TiVo To Go), or even stores externally (the eSATA port) requires certification by Cable Labs.

So TiVo got the S3 out on the market, into our hands, but with some features disabled pending Cable Labs approval. With luck, they'll be able to activate these spiffy features. If not, well... Cable Labs blows :b~

The point is, it's not TiVo's fault. They could either release a CableCARD compatible product when they did with some features disabled, or wait until Cable Labs approved EVERYTHING... which apparently would have delayed the release by a year!


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## azflackman

I have to say, as a big complainer about Tivotogo ignoring us, that I am a happy camper now. Everything works! As I Tivo a program it automatically transfers to my iMac and I can burn a DVD using Roxio Toast 8. Slick! And, I can show iPhotos or play iTunes through the home network on my TV. No hiccups either. Now all I want is to be able to do the same thing with my Series 3. Hey, maybe they are working on that too!


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## 3rdCoast

Hi Y'all . . . Can anyone tell me if it possible to download free tools to enable transferring files from tivo series 2 to a Mac running 10.3.9 without requiring use of the Terminal? All the freeware I could locate on Version Tracker requires Tiger. Elsewhere I came across Galleon, but I don't "do" the Terminal. (Not knowledgeable enough to feel confident in there.) 

Thanks in advance. Any suggestion appreciated. I was referred here from tivo website since this is apparently considered a "hack." I apologize if such talk is also off-limits here. Obviously I should have investigated these issues before getting tivo last year, but I naively assumed transferring files would be as easy as most everything else on the Mac.

Or is there no way to transfer recorded programs to my Mac without either violating the tivo rules or paying for additional software?


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## Dennis Wilkinson

I'm not aware of anything that meets all those criteria (free, no use of the command line, runs on 10.3.x). I think the real limiter is using 10.3.x, though -- even some of the not-free options require some flavor of 10.4.


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## cwoody222

You can get some Galleon launcher tools that work with 10.3 I believe and allow you to use Galleon without using Terminal.

Why lookie...

http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=264966


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## leon999

TydalForce said:


> TiVoToGo on the Series3 is being held up by the fine folks at Cable Labs.
> 
> So is the solution to start bugging them, not Tivo? Or would it be counter-productive?
> 
> Cable Television Laboratories, Inc.
> 858 Coal Creek Circle
> Louisville, CO 80027-9750
> 
> Phone:	303.661.9100
> Fax:	303.661.9199


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## CuriousMark

3rdCoast said:


> Thanks in advance. Any suggestion appreciated. I was referred here from tivo website since this is apparently considered a "hack." I apologize if such talk is also off-limits here. Obviously I should have investigated these issues before getting tivo last year, but I naively assumed transferring files would be as easy as most everything else on the Mac.


My fault, hack was too strong a word. We aren't supposed to discuss non-tivo tools there, except to suggest or refer people to where they can get them, or at least find out where they can get them.

TiVo Decode manager, may fall into the hack category, I am not sure. It isn't the official solution at any rate.

Galleon should work, it has a gui configuration program that should work for you.

Good luck


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## TydalForce

You might want to upgrade to 10.4 (or hang on for 10.5) and get TiVo Decode Manager... works really well


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## 3rdCoast

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> I think the real limiter is using 10.3.x, though -- even some of the not-free options require some flavor of 10.4.


I suspected this might be the case. Unfortunately I don't have the cash to upgrade my hardware to something Tiger-worthy.



cwoody222 said:


> You can get some Galleon launcher tools that work with 10.3 I believe and allow you to use Galleon without using Terminal.
> 
> Why lookie...


Thanks man!!! I will attempt this thing soon as I get a chance.


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## kalantan

I can get Safari to see my Series 3 HD over my wired LAN, but TivoDecodeManager. When I plug the IP address of the TiVo into Safari, I get the page saying I've successfully connected, etc. I plug the same IP address into TivoDecodeManager along with my MAK and no dice. Got a warning saying check IP and MAK. I'm running the latest of OS X and TivoDecodeManager saw my Series 2 just fine. Any advice that might trickle in for this dilemma is appreciated....


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## Fofer

kalantan said:


> I can get Safari to see my Series 3 HD over my wired LAN, but TivoDecodeManager. When I plug the IP address of the TiVo into Safari, I get the page saying I've successfully connected, etc. I plug the same IP address into TivoDecodeManager along with my MAK and no dice. Got a warning saying check IP and MAK. I'm running the latest of OS X and TivoDecodeManager saw my Series 2 just fine. Any advice that might trickle in for this dilemma is appreciated....


The Series 3 has no TiVoToGo (or Multi-Room Viewing) functionality at this point in time. These won't work until TiVo gets CableLab Certification and enables it on the Series 3 platform for us.

Until then (barring some kind of end-user hack or something) TiVoDecodeManager and the Toast TTG software and any other networking/extraction of this nature will *not* work.


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## Dennis Wilkinson

The Series 3 doesn't support TiVoToGo. You wouldn't even be able to connect to it with the official TiVo Desktop. The page you're seeing when you connect with Safari is still accessible, but if you try to browse recordings (using the https:// flavor of the address) you'll find you can't get to them.

The claim is that this is because the CableLabs folks haven't signed off on the feature yet. The same is true for MRV and TiVoToComeBack.

_Edit: and that's what I get for queuing up threads to read..._


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## kalantan

Well, thanks for the informed answers. I'm a bit new to networking TiVos and all and I appreciate it. The Series 3 is a heck of a machine, but I guess I'll put the Series 2 back into service along side it until a connectivity solution presents itself - or some such corporate-speak....


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## xnevergiveinx

tivo desktop doesn't do anything on my macbook, it installs and i cen see it under system prefs, but it doesn't allow me to start

i still can't play .tivo files on my macbook, unless i download them with tivodecode and then play under vlc


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## derekcbart

xnevergiveinx said:


> tivo desktop doesn't do anything on my macbook, it installs and i cen see it under system prefs, but it doesn't allow me to start
> 
> i still can't play .tivo files on my macbook, unless i download them with tivodecode and then play under vlc


You need to install Toast 8 in order to playback .tivo files without using TiVoDecode and VLC. I don't own a MacBook so I don't know why it won't start. The TiVo Desktop software hasn't been updated in a while. Is it a Universal application?


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## Dennis Wilkinson

xnevergiveinx said:


> tivo desktop doesn't do anything on my macbook, it installs and i cen see it under system prefs, but it doesn't allow me to start
> 
> i still can't play .tivo files on my macbook, unless i download them with tivodecode and then play under vlc


The "doesn't allow me to start" problem sounds like the same problem discussed in this thread, which also has some possible solutions. The latest TiVo Desktop for Mac (1.9.3) is a universal app and should behave fine on a MacBook.

As derekcbart mentions, you will need Toast (or continue using TiVoDecode Manager) to get video playback, but TiVo Desktop handles the rest.


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## tonyf3

Hey Dennis,
It's been a while. 
So the Hard drive finally went in my Series 2 80hr after 4 years. Wanted to know what you thought of sites like this one that offer preformatted replacement drives. http://www.dvrupgrade.com

It seems like I can get a 2 Tuner 80 hr with on-board ethernet for $99.00 from Tivo. Or buy a preformated replacement drive for $99.00 and up and install myself. Your thoughts? Thanks.


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## greg_burns

You can get a TivoHD with a plan for $199

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=388706

Probably better would to be one for $250 at Amazon w/o service and then just transfer your S2 service to it via the website. That way you avoid a commitment and keep your current rate.

Replacing the drive yourself is normally very simple using InstantCake. But w/o a PC, that could be a problem.


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## greg_burns

There are also free S2s with service...

http://dynamic.tivo.com/0.11.LP_kz.asp?a=las

more deals....
http://www.tivo.com/promo/nea_specialoffers.html


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## msmart

greg_burns said:


> There are also free S2s with service...
> 
> http://dynamic.tivo.com/0.11.LP_kz.asp?a=las


WOW!! That's almost too good to be true!! I regretted not getting a dual tuner TiVo when I bought my first Tivo single tuner a while back. This looks like a perfect way to "upgrade".

I imagine they're refirb units, no? Or are they just looking to off-load inventory as HD units take off?

Better hurry, the offer expires April 5.!!

*ADDED:* Forget upgrading, I may just get one as a second unit. Thanks for the link.


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## Puppy76

Wow! Those are all some neat deals (at least if you're sure you don't want HD anytime soon and will have analog cable).

What's that about transferring service from an S2? Can you do that again?

I'd consider it, except it sounds like Tivo2Go has problems on the S3 platform, plus I hate how teeny tiny the hard drive is, and hate having to use a (possibly flaky) external drive.


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## greg_burns

Puppy76 said:


> Wow! Those are all some neat deals (at least if you're sure you don't want HD anytime soon and will have analog cable).


TivoHD is good for those as well. Also it can pick up Digital OTA. :up:



Puppy76 said:


> What's that about transferring service from an S2? Can you do that again?


You can't transfer lifetime service, but you have always been able to move your subscription to a new (unsubbed box).

https://www3.tivo.com/tivo-mma/dvrchange.do



Puppy76 said:


> I'd consider it, except it sounds like Tivo2Go has problems on the S3 platform, plus I hate how teeny tiny the hard drive is, and hate having to use a (possibly flaky) external drive.


Not to dismiss the transfer issues others are having, but I've had no failures at all with my S3.

Replace the internal drive with a 1TB. Easy as pie with WinMFS (and a Windows PC).


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## donsig

Just noticed this at the Roxio software updates page this morning:

Toast 8 Titanium v8.0.4:
Resolves issue where EyeTV recordings were not visible in Media Browser
Resolves a number of TiVo related audio/video sync issues​
Downloading it now.

Jeff

Oops I meant to post this in this thread. Sorry. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=369019


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## msmart

> ADDED: Forget upgrading, I may just get one as a second unit. Thanks for the link.


RATS!! I can't use a DT with my digital cable's (Qwest ChoiceTV) residential gateway box. Since my single tuner S2 is 80GB, I'm not going to gain anything. Oh well.


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