# Top Shot Season 2



## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

Debuts February 8. History Channel has been showing promo videos for it last weekend, in-between Ax Men and Top Gear.

http://www.history.com/shows/top-shot with info on this season's participants. Not surprisingly, there are a couple of cops, several ex-military, and even a cowboy shooter a la Denny Chapman.

Even though Season 2 has yet to air, the producers are already taking preliminary applications for Season 3.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Oh F-yeah, 3 seasons!!!!

LOVE shooting stuff


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

More hot girls with guns please.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I enjoyed the first season, but I couldn't help but think most of the contestants really weren't very good. Certainly not experts, IMO. Hopefully this season will have some more impressive shooting since they had the first season as a promo of sorts.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

I'll just use this thread

This season so far has been great! The people aren't too annoying, but the competitions are great!

Loved the speed shooting one last ep, and that they brought back JJ and Blake (Think that are their names) for the experts.


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## Big Deficit (Jul 8, 2003)

The gun they used was designed by and named after JJ. I'm guessing it looks much better in person, because it looked like a cheap movie prop to me. Seems like things are getting more personal now, or at least the producers are making it seem so.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

He produced that?? 

I thought they said there were only a few dozen in the world and one of the ones used WAS JJ's, not that he designed it.


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## MarkofT (Jul 27, 2001)

One of the little popup facts they flashed on the screen stated that the gun was named after JJ. I don't know how much input he had into the design of the gun.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

From the Limcat Website:
*The Razorcat was designed for Limcat team shooter JJ Razor Racaza, based on his preferences for an Open gun.* The result is a short, fast cycling gun that includes the new long threaded V-6 Razorcomp and L-Cut slide. The Razorcat can be chambered for 9mm Major or .38 Super (or super comp) and is also designed for Open Division USPSA and IPSC competition.​


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

MikeMar said:


> This season so far has been great! The people aren't too annoying, but the competitions are great!


I finally got to watch this season's shows, so far the first two. For some reason my U-verse DVR never bothered to record them  Good thing for iTunes.

I love the competitions so far. The one with them shooting at targets while being shot at with paintballs by the opposing team has been my favorite so far.

Is it me or is Coby really overdoing the play-by-play narration this season? I don't recall him being this bad last year.



Ment said:


> More hot girls with guns please.


Especially the one that has more than a passing resemblance to Angelina Jolie :up:

The Asian chick...meh


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Loved the last episode, especially the blowgun elimination. That was cool!


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

Just finished episodes 3 and 4. Jermaine, dude, WTF??? Two identical brain farts in a row?

I'm disappointed in Daryl, the police lieutenant on the blue team. Rather than ***** and moan about Jay's "leadership style" to anybody who would listen including members of red team, as an experienced commanding officer himself (both in law enforcement and the military) he should have taken the opportunity to mentor Jay and foster what leadership potential Jay may have had in him. There are no "ranks" in Top Shot so it's not like Daryl was going to be written up for insubordination.

Instead, Daryl waits until Jay fought his way back onto the team and Daryl was forced to give that lame-azz apology for breaking ranks and shooting Jay's target instead of letting Jermaine decide as previously agreed. That lack of cohesiveness I think is what cost them in the compound bow competition, since NOBODY offered to tell Maggie what she was doing wrong. Even red team felt sorry for her.

I'll miss Maggie. Yeah she sucked at compound bow but I think she was the best hope for blue team to become more focused as a team.


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## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

I missed the entire thing and I had enjoyed the first season. I was gone when it started and must have decided that my Tivo was too full. (why didn't I record it on my series II.) Oh well, will watch the third season.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

RonDawg said:


> Just finished episodes 3 and 4. Jermaine, dude, WTF??? Two identical brain farts in a row?
> 
> I'm disappointed in Daryl, the police lieutenant on the blue team. Rather than ***** and moan about Jay's "leadership style" to anybody who would listen including members of red team, as an experienced commanding officer himself (both in law enforcement and the military) he should have taken the opportunity to mentor Jay and foster what leadership potential Jay may have had in him. There are no "ranks" in Top Shot so it's not like Daryl was going to be written up for insubordination.
> 
> ...


I don't think Jay cares to be mentored. He hasn't taken the simplest advice given to him, forget trying to critique his "leadership."


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

sieglinde said:


> I missed the entire thing and I had enjoyed the first season. I was gone when it started and must have decided that my Tivo was too full. (why didn't I record it on my series II.) Oh well, will watch the third season.


It repeats a lot, I'm sure the whole season will repeat many time before next season. Its not like History Channel has a lot of other stuff


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

sieglinde said:


> I missed the entire thing and I had enjoyed the first season. I was gone when it started and must have decided that my Tivo was too full. (why didn't I record it on my series II.) Oh well, will watch the third season.


It's far from over, I think there has only been 6 or 7 episodes of season 2


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

snowjay said:


> I don't think Jay cares to be mentored. He hasn't taken the simplest advice given to him, forget trying to critique his "leadership."


Perhaps not. But, except for instructors, nobody tried to mentor him at all. Except for perhaps Maggie, all of the other blue team members share the blame for the team dynamic.

But because he is a police lieutenant (albeit with a mere 5 years' experience per his History Channel bio) and a former Marine Corps officer, I hold Daryl most accountable for failing to address the underlying issues that negatively impacted team cohesiveness. Would he tolerate that kind of back talk and backstabbing within his own squad at his job? My own "Ell-Tee" certainly wouldn't.

Instead, Daryl simply focused his efforts into back talk and overall negativity. The very opposite of leadership.

I'm not letting Jay off the hook either. He ultimately is responsible for his own behavior. But, I do believe he was totally unaware, or totally clueless, about him rubbing everybody else the wrong way. You saw that during Daryl's too little, too late, totally lame "sort of" apology. Jay looked genuinely surprised when Daryl finally confronted him about his behavior.

Jay has had only a year's firearms' experience, so the fact that he can not only make it onto the show, but also out-shot far more experienced peers and rivals, perhaps sparked quite a bit of jealousy. Daryl mentioned that he's used to being in charge, so I do think that Daryl felt threatened when someone else was in charge.

I checked out the Top Shot forums at History.com and opinions over there about Daryl are even harsher, with some questioning his integrity and a few even accusing him of being a racist.



Spoiler



Supposedly only Jay gets more hate mail than Daryl. Daryl claims to be buds with Jay now so obviously race is not the issue.


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## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

I'll start watching it when episode 201 shows up.  Thanks


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

Just finished episodes 5 and 6 so now I'm all caught up.

Blue team seems to have quite literally "buried the hatchet" with Jay. I do have to give Jay credit for resisting getting his revenge on Daryl and jumping on the "let's send Daryl to elimination for screwing up the tomahawk throw" bandwagon that his teammates did. Instead he backed Daryl's decision to send Chris T. as his competitor, and was the only one to do so.

Red team does appear to be stronger than blue at this point, but I think George's outright dismissal of Jay and Kyle's abilities might turn against them. Even Chris R. has expressed concern that Jay may not be as weak as his teammates believe. 

For Jay to only begin firearms training a year earlier and yet has managed to hang on this far is pretty amazing. Some folks may not care for his refusal to accept instruction on occasion, but so far it's worked for him, and he did very well with the 1911 in episode 5 despite his insistence on the "cup and saucer" hold on the firearm.

Speaking of George, he's a curious one. He's gotten to trash-talking Jamie, and yet when Jamie was successful with the tomahawk exercises George was the one cheering him on the most. But George was also the one who did convince the others to send Jamie to elimination, but they ended up losing Eric instead. 

George seems to hinge his behavior (which comes across even WORSE with his posts on the Top Shot forums on History.com) on his perception about Jamie being secretive with his Navy career. To his credit, Jamie has posted exactly what he has done in the Navy over at the Top Shot forums, and IMHO his resume is a lot more impressive than George's.

I do hope Jamie gets Top Shot. He's one to simply let his skills do the talking. He may not have the experience or competition wins of some of the others, but frankly the so-called "favorites" haven't necessarily lived up to their reputations either.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

RonDawg said:


> For Jay to only begin firearms training a year earlier and yet has managed to hang on this far is pretty amazing. Some folks may not care for his refusal to accept instruction on occasion, but so far it's worked for him, and he did very well with the 1911 in episode 5 despite his insistence on the "cup and saucer" hold on the firearm.


The issue I have with him not taking instruction is that in his interviews he basically mocks their efforts and keeps saying he just wants them "to show me how to shoot faster."

Well pal, you ain't gonna do it holding the firearm like that.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

While I respect his whole "don't change the fundamentals", he could at least try to hold it the way they recommend. He mind find that he likes it better...


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> While I respect his whole "don't change the fundamentals", he could at least try to hold it the way they recommend. He mind find that he likes it better...


He posts on Calguns. He does the Weaver now.

Edit: "swingcoach" on calguns.

--Carlos V.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I wonder if he can shoot faster now


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## Steve_Martin (Jul 18, 2004)

Unbeliever said:


> He posts on Calguns. He does the Weaver now.
> 
> Edit: "swingcoach" on calguns.
> 
> --Carlos V.


His original reasoning was "I don't want to change things now".

Wow, calguns is big! (I post there too occasionally)


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

With this last episode, I don't understand why individual members of blue team chose the various challenges that they did. For example, if Daryl is supposedly the best trick-shooter of the team, he should have done the final challenge (plates spread far apart) since I thought that was the hardest and you get the most points from it. Kyle, the weakest shooter of the four, should have done the corn cob shoot.



Steve_Martin said:


> His original reasoning was "I don't want to change things now".


And I can see that reasoning. They don't have a lot of official practice time before each competition, aren't allowed to leave the ranch to go to a local gun range, and for safety reasons aren't allowed to their own practicing with firearms the way they did with the blowgun and tomahawk competitions.


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## Steve_Martin (Jul 18, 2004)

RonDawg said:


> And I can see that reasoning. They don't have a lot of official practice time before each competition, aren't allowed to leave the ranch to go to a local gun range, and for safety reasons aren't allowed to their own practicing with firearms the way they did with the blowgun and tomahawk competitions.


I agree with his reasoning too. The pros should just help him fine tune his techniques with the limited time available. He seems to have earned back the respect of most of his team (what's left of it).


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Just found out that my cow-orker was in the Marine Corp with Joe (he was the corncob shooter for the red team).


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

O. M. G.

I did NOT expect Jay to beat Daryl in the elimination challenge for the "Catch .22" episode. And neither did the rest of the contestants (except of course Jay).

Jay deserved to go to elimination challenge again. I thought his stubbornness and refusal to accept instruction was going to cost him this time, and his S-L-O-W-N-E-S-S during the team competition definitely cost them the win. With only 5 points separating them, by simply picking up the pace, Jay could have easily helped blue team win this time.

But as Daryl said, Jay has this remarkable ability to pull magic tricks out of his azz just as you think he's going to fall flat on his face.

(As an aside, I'm not sure why Daryl didn't start off with the more difficult but greater gain moving targets? The team knows Jay is a slowpoke, and Daryl could have made up for that by concentrating on the moving targets first, since he's the best shot of the 3.)

I'm looking forward to the next episode, just to see everybody's reaction back at the house. 



Spoiler



Either my TV needs re-calibrating, or when the teams are dissolved next episode and everybody wears the same color, the producers chose a hideous shade of green for their fleece sweaters. Last year's shade of green was a lot nicer.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Jay lucked out on the challenge. The sight picture didn't move. It just got smaller. 

--Carlos V.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

I don't understand why Daryl didn't go first either, he would of been up to the bench twice.

That bullseye shooting stance is weak, and I'll say it again it wouldn't be a big deal for him to move that support hand, even less of an issue than on a hand gun. 

Daryl losing the challenge was disappointing. He had the lead and blew it, he was still trying to go fast. Jay gets lucky again.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

I think sorta covered up in the editing for the gallery sequence is the time taken on reloading those 10/22 rotary mags. The quick shooters were probably going through a 10 round mag in less than 10-15 seconds (except for Jay).  

I've got a 10/22. They're a bit fiddly, especially when it comes to putting the mag in. The standard rotary is flush with the stock when loaded, hard to orient, easy to put in backwards, and that combined with how close the magwell is to the trigger guard doesn't make it conducive for a single motion insert-and-tap. You saw a bit of fiddling with the mag during quick edits during the team practices, and of course Daryl's mag drop in the elimination. Though I think Daryl was just flustered in general.

I wonder why they didn't box style mags and stayed with the stock 10/22 mags. The carbines weren't unmodified. They usually don't come with sling swivels like the ones used on the show.

I also installed peep-sight/ghost ring style sights from Tech-Sights. I've found that the notch style sights obscure too much of the target for tiny targets or to shoot beyond your zero and you have to add elevation.

--Carlos V.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

snowjay said:


> I don't understand why Daryl didn't go first either, he would of been up to the bench twice.
> 
> That bullseye shooting stance is weak, and I'll say it again it wouldn't be a big deal for him to move that support hand, even less of an issue than on a hand gun.
> 
> Daryl losing the challenge was disappointing. He had the lead and blew it, he was still trying to go fast. Jay gets lucky again.


Isn't it beyond time for Jay and luck to be spoken together? He is unconventional to be sure, but he has a talent for incorporating new shooting situations into his existing style. Isn't Jay's forte archery? Yet he is still kicking ass in eliminations. Bet you could have a rock throwing contest and he'd still figure out a way to beat you throwing underhand..


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

In this case, I do think this time around luck still had a big factor, and I want to still ding him in the team competition for not sticking with the team. The team competition needed lots of fast mostly-hit shots, and not few, well-aimed shots.

Yes, there is skill in Jay, but the team competition was quick shots, different points of aim. 

The offhand match shooting stance is really stable for long shots where you want a stable platform integrated with your breathing. Your weak elbow is resting on your ribcage for structural support, so you have to time your shots with your breathing. You really can't move your aim without moving your entire torso. In fact, with the so-called "Natural Point of Aim" stances, if your aim is off, you don't move the rifle, you move your body. You want your body to aim, and your bones to hold the rifle steady. Not conducive to fast shooting. I don't think NPOA stances are good for the gallery.

For the challenge, the aim point didn't change. It just got smaller. In that case, the match stance was well suited for it.

I do fun CMP-style matches, and shoot off-hand with a variant of Jay's stance. Facing 90ish degrees off, weak elbow on my chest, and hand close to the trigger, although my elbow is twisted so my weak hand (left) fingers go left instead of right.

Daryl didn't help his case by getting all flustered.

--Carlos V.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

I was very disappointed about the way tonight's episode went. Eliminations, thanks to George, were clearly for personality-conflict reasons. Joe had by far the worst performance and even agreed he should be eliminated. Ashley seemed quick at first but ended up having the second-worst performance of the group. Judging by performance alone, those two should have been sent, not Jay and Jamie.

I know he ticked off a lot of people at the beginning, but I am sad to see Jay go. He fought off over half of the competition, pretty damn good considering his lack of experience. He certainly gave the far-more-experienced ex-military competitors a good fight.

George has emerged as the Season 2 d-bag. I'm not sure what his issue with Jamie is, since unlike George, Jamie doesn't play into the politics. At least Jamie has $6 grand worth of Bass Pro Shop gift cards even if he doesn't end up to be Top Shot, and Jay went home with $4 grand worth. I hope George eventually gets sent home empty-handed.

As far as the competition is concerned, I think the sniper shot should have been tallied a bit differently. Time of course should be a factor, but so should number of rounds. I was never in the military or SWAT so bear with me if I'm wrong here, but I thought the whole purpose of a sniper was to take out the enemy/threat without your presence even being known by them. If you start throwing multiple rounds their way, it seems to defeat the purpose of all that stealth and now you have to deal with a moving target from an incredible distance as well as your enemy now trying to take you out as well.

I think they should have added 5 seconds to the total elapsed time for every missed shot. As much as I cannot stand him, I do believe George should have been declared the winner. He did a one-shot kill only 5 seconds slower than Brian, who needed 3 shots to do so. Even Jay, who had never fired such a weapon before practice, managed to beat the more experienced Ashley by "walking" his aim, and that was despite the fact Jay took forever to fire off his first round.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

RonDawg said:


> As far as the competition is concerned, I think the sniper shot should have been tallied a bit differently. Time of course should be a factor, but so should number of rounds. I was never in the military or SWAT so bear with me if I'm wrong here, but I thought the whole purpose of a sniper was to take out the enemy/threat without your presence even being known by them.


If it was .308 in a Remington 700, I would agree with you, but even though Barrett/M82 with .50BMG is a sniper rifle, it is not an anti-personnel rifle, but an anti-materiel rifle. You're shooting vehicles/buildings, not people.

On top of that, you're never going to be stealthy once you pull the trigger on 50BMG. You want to put as many holes in the target as you can.

As soon as the elimination course was described, I knew Jay was going to fall. He's just not that quick. I'm also surprised the instructor didn't teach him how to properly quickly load the Garand. Jay's going to get a Garand thumb if he keeps loading the way he was. He was lucky that the M1 they used needed to be lubed and the op-rod needed a tap forward to close the bolt. The clip can be loaded into the magazine quickly and properly with 1 hand, but I saw both competitors using both hands.






Oh, and George was swinging his 3rd leg around with the 1-shot 1-kill routine. He knew the rule was quickest hit, but had to show off.

Impressive shot, though.

Edit: It looks like everybody had help on the initial scope settings. They pretty much all had the right elevation, but only George knew how to read the wind and adjust the windage setting. (I would hope so, since he is a sniper instructor)

--Carlos V.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

Unbeliever said:


> If it was .308 in a Remington 700, I would agree with you, but even though Barrett/M82 with .50BMG is a sniper rifle, it is not an anti-personnel rifle, but an anti-materiel rifle. You're shooting vehicles/buildings, not people.


OK that explains it then. I thought .50 was a bit large to just kill someone, but hey what do I know?


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

BTW the Top Shot forum at History.com is absolutely buzzing over tonight's episode. A whole thread was created just so people can say that the reason they finally got a login was to comment on George:

http://community.history.com/topic/36104/t/So-who-just-joined-cause-they-were-so-pissed.html


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

I'm sad to see Jay to go as well, he just has a ton of natural undeveloped talent. If there were ever a competition where the weapon had sights and adjustments removed he'd be top dog. Jamie isn't going to last much longer, even though he's par with the others as shooters, going up to more eliminations is going to get you gone.


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## Big Deficit (Jul 8, 2003)

RonDawg said:


> BTW the Top Shot forum at History.com is absolutely buzzing over tonight's episode. A whole thread was created just so people can say that the reason they finally got a login was to comment on George:
> 
> http://community.history.com/topic/36104/t/So-who-just-joined-cause-they-were-so-pissed.html


Love the post from one of George's friends trying to stick up for him while admitting that he's a ******. Good hearted people don't "run over" old people without a thought. I also love the "I'm never watching again" folks. I call BS! Not only are most of them going to watch, they're going to get friends and acquaintances to watch too.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

First, I'm jealous they got to shoot a M82.

I'm with RonDawg, I can't stand George and he is a total d-bag. Honestly I don't think he's doing the Marines proud by being that way. That was one awesome shot he did though, but I'm sure he's done it dozens of times being an instructor.

It was a little melancholy to see Jay go. I would of actually loved to see him beat George in an elimination.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

snowjay said:


> I'm with RonDawg, I can't stand George and he is a total d-bag. Honestly I don't think he's doing the Marines proud by being that way.


Air-Force, actually.

And according to the History channel thread guys, there doesn't seem to be such a thing as an Air Force sniper.

--Carlos V.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

Oh, my bad. I thought they were all Marines now except Jamie (they mentioned him being the odd man out). I guess I need to pay more attention to the blurbs on the screen.

He's not doing any military branch proud with that attitude.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Unbeliever said:


> And according to the History channel thread guys, there doesn't seem to be such a thing as an Air Force sniper.


Researching more into it, it is sorta true. There are no no "reach out and touch you" offensive snipers in the Air Force, more like defensive snipers. More like counter-snipers, and it's not their day job.

They're basically security forces, and can pick up a sniper rifle as the situation dictates.

--Carlos V.


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## JLucPicard (Jul 8, 2004)

Gunny mentioned that his service and security job prepared him for competing with the M82 - what the heck kind of security job would he have that prepares him for something like that?


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

JLucPicard said:


> Gunny mentioned that his service and security job prepared him for competing with the M82 - what the heck kind of security job would he have that prepares him for something like that?


He was a rifle instructor in the Marines so has wide familiarity with weapons. Not sure who he works for in the security job but his website has him hunting pirates...the Somalian kind. Don't agree with his politics..he's Glenn Beck Right, but he seems like a good guy on the show.


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## JLucPicard (Jul 8, 2004)

Ment said:


> Not sure who he works for in the security job but his website has him hunting pirates...the Somalian kind.


OK, that does make sense, then.

I live near the Mall of America, but I never saw gun turrets there with .50 caliber guns!


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

snowjay said:


> I'm with RonDawg, I can't stand George and he is a total d-bag. Honestly I don't think he's doing the Marines proud by being that way.


One of the sentiments that is often echoed on the Top Shot forums by current and former military is that George's behavior is making other military service members look bad.

There is one guy on there, a fellow USAF Security Services person, who said that George simply reinforced a notion that many within the USAF had of their police force, that they are buffoons who do that job because they didn't score high enough on the ASVAB to do anything else. I was not previously aware of this perception.

Even worse, George is also making the *USMC* look bad by association, since many (including yourself) mistakenly assume he's a Marine like most of his bunkmates. An easy mistake to make given how the Marines follow his every lead. I know of a couple former Marines at work who would like to kick George's azz for that reason.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

Unbeliever said:


> And according to the History channel thread guys, there doesn't seem to be such a thing as an Air Force sniper.


There apparently are some doubts about George's "combat creds." Some of the posters, including current and former military, think George is inflating his resume to match his ego.

Unlike Jamie, who posted everything he has done in his career after the episode where George and Ashley assumed he was an assassin, George refuses to say exactly what he has done beyond a few snippets here and there. His reason is that it is none of our business. Funny hearing that from a man whose beef with Jamie seems to stem from his perception of Jamie not being forthcoming enough about his military career.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

I hated the elimination challenge rules. The whole first part of the competition was pointless, since all it did was make Brian 'safe'. They could've just shot a .22 at a regular target and whoever got closest was safe, the .50 cal was fun to watch, but it didn't make a difference where you ended up if you weren't 'first', you had just as much chance of going top elimination.

I liked it MUCH better when the worst 2 performers went to elimination, rather than everyone voting on who to send. That took it from being about ability to being all about personality. WTF.


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## jeepair (Apr 22, 2004)

Nobody should have been present during the 50bmg competition. Watching the rounds hit left gave follow up shooters advantages. Especially with Colby saying way left, left, left, hit etc. 

George was the only one to watch where the first rounds hit and correctly adjust and hold his point of aim the same distance to the right of the target. Kudos for that. 

Lots of leftys shooting the M82. The few times I shot it felt like a punch on the nose since my nose is a few inches behind the ejection port. I like my lefty AR50 better. lol.

Jay, letting the last target fall without squeezing off a shot. Arrrg.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

jeepair said:


> Nobody should have been present during the 50bmg competition. Watching the rounds hit left gave follow up shooters advantages. Especially with Colby saying way left, left, left, hit etc.
> 
> George was the only one to watch where the first rounds hit and correctly adjust and hold his point of aim the same distance to the right of the target. Kudos for that.
> 
> ...


I thought the same thing. Every single one of them except George put their first shot on the same spot. That should have told the later shooters something.


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## JLucPicard (Jul 8, 2004)

So Colby was calling the shots, but was he seeing them, or was he getting info from the spotter (behind the shooters).

I thought down range might have been too far away to pick up the shots with the naked eye, but that could just be camera angles and such that made it look that way to me. If the other guys could actually see all of that, then the others should have been able to pick up some 'pointers' from the other's results.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

JLucPicard said:


> So Colby was calling the shots, but was he seeing them, or was he getting info from the spotter (behind the shooters).
> 
> I thought down range might have been too far away to pick up the shots with the naked eye, but that could just be camera angles and such that made it look that way to me. If the other guys could actually see all of that, then the others should have been able to pick up some 'pointers' from the other's results.


My guess is the spotter was letting the contestant(s) know where they shot. Not sure if it was loud enough for those on the bench to hear or not. Colby's part was probably edited in later to make it look like he was calling it right after the shots were taken.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

But that contradicts what george said when he went to shoot. He specifically said he used the doping info from the prevous shooters and that they were shooting to the left. 

He knew this somehow.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

vertigo235 said:


> But that contradicts what george said when he went to shoot. He specifically said he used the doping info from the prevous shooters and that they were shooting to the left.
> 
> He knew this somehow.


Then the ones on the bench overheard the spotter, which wouldn't surprise me at all, but Colby was probably either edited in or repeating the spotter, just my guess.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

I got this from the History.com forums. Caleb from Season 1 interviews Jay Lim:

http://blogtalk.vo.llnwd.net/o23/show/1/692/show_1692507.mp3

Jay gives some interesting insight into the show's production. He said that besides Brian, and obviously Joe, nobody knew how they actually scored in the .50 cal shoot. I bet that George was surprised that his arch-enemy actually beat him by a second. Unfortunately Jay doesn't shed any more light into the George and Jamie show beyond what many have already guesses.

As far as that is concerned, Jamie himself posted that he had "words" with another contestant at the house and that is what is fueling all the hate towards him. It wasn't George but certainly one of George's bunk buddies...I'm guessing Ashley.

A funny note: Jay's interview was interrupted because he saw a cop checking out his NSX parked out front. Jay was phoning in the interview from home. Jay left the phone off-hook and carried it outside with him, and you can hear the cop tell Jay that one of his neighbors called to complain about the car. The cop can be heard saying "72 hours" which is the limit for parking a car on a public roadway in CA.


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## Steve_Martin (Jul 18, 2004)

Einselen said:


> My guess is the spotter was letting the contestant(s) know where they shot. Not sure if it was loud enough for those on the bench to hear or not. Colby's part was probably edited in later to make it look like he was calling it right after the shots were taken.


I htought I saw the camera cut to Colby on-range announcing the hit location during the contest.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

I don't think I've cheered for any episode as hard as I did this one. I loved the look of the faces of the others (particularly George) when Jaime outshot everybody else, and thus spoiled their plans to get rid of him :up:

While George is the blowhard of Season 2, it appears that Ashley is the one with the real personality beef with Jaime. I'm glad he got eliminated. His refusal to even acknowledge Jaime after he lost just shows a total lack of class.

I'm also glad that Chris R. finally recognized that Ashley as being a troublemaker and helped to send him to elimination. I'm just curious how George is going to act the remainder of the season now that his biggest cheerleaders/enablers are now gone.

George needs to knock it off with saying the eliminations are "performance based." The only person who will believe that after last week's episode is himself.

Did Brian (Gunny) always share a room with Jaime, or did he move in with him for some more elbow room (and to get out of that toxic environment)?


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Too bad Ashley had it in for Jamie. As the last member of the red team, he could have partnered with Jamie and Joe to make the elimination selections fair this round.

Have to agree with George on the F.A.L vs AR-15. For the purposes of the challenge, the recoil really made it harder along with the small platform.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

Why even bother with the competition, since they had already decided who was going to go to elimination before they even GOT to the competition portion? So sad that Jaimie screwed it up for them by winning.

If they do the damn personality crap for elimination next year, I'm done. The two worst performers should be in the elimination challenge. Not the ones that the 'cool kids' don't like.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Yeah, the popularity contest part is BEYOND stupid!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I agree, bad decision to go that route this year.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

No love loss seing Ashley go. He was a complete a-hole to Jamie in the kitchen and karma bit him in the ass.


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## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

snowjay said:


> No love loss seing Ashley go. He was a complete a-hole to Jamie in the kitchen and karma bit him in the ass.


Guy's was a boner bag.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

JoBeth66 said:


> Why even bother with the competition, since they had already decided who was going to go to elimination before they even GOT to the competition portion? So sad that Jaimie screwed it up for them by winning.
> 
> If they do the damn personality crap for elimination next year, I'm done. The two worst performers should be in the elimination challenge. Not the ones that the 'cool kids' don't like.


The person who wins each competition has "immunity" from being voted into elimination.

I too hate this modified format.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

I have only been watching the practices and elimination challenges this year. Don't care for the reality show stuff. That being said, based on the comments here I decided to watch a few snippets of the reality part the last couple of weeks. Holy cow, what a bunch of dirtbags. George and Ashley in particular.

Perhaps Jamie is a really bad guy and I simply don't know it because I haven't watched, but if not, George and Ashley should be ashamed of themselves. What an embarrassment to themselves and their military brothers/sisters.

Also, the popularity contest angle is retarded on the part of the producers. This Top Shot, not most popular shot. The worst performers should be up for elimination. Anything else is just ridiculous.

Finally, the 1,000 yard shot challenge... What a great way to ruin an awesome challenge. It should have been least shots. George may be a tool but that was a phenomenal shot. That's the sign of a true marksman to me. He did a great job of gathering all the information he could from the guys ahead of him then made the final calculations when it came time for him to shoot. 1 shot 1 kill in 30 seconds is a hell of a lot more impressive than 3 shots 1 kill in 26 or 30 seconds.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Yeah if they were shooting at a real target, the target would have been gone after the first shot.


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## jeepair (Apr 22, 2004)

Lots of our questions are answered in this interview Caleb (season 1) gave to Jay (season 2)

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/gunnuts/2011/04/08/gun-nuts-radio-jay-lim-from-top-shot-reloaded

Thought I'd throw this out there as some of you might be interested.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> Yeah if they were shooting at a real target, the target would have been gone after the first shot.


Someone else in this thread pointed out that the 50-cal they were shooting would be used on materiel targets as opposed to people, so the target would be unlikely to run off.

But I agree that there should have been some kind of per-shot penalty.


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## zuko3984 (May 4, 2002)

ClutchBrake said:


> Finally, the 1,000 yard shot challenge... What a great way to ruin an awesome challenge. It should have been least shots. George may be a tool but that was a phenomenal shot. That's the sign of a true marksman to me. He did a great job of gathering all the information he could from the guys ahead of him then made the final calculations when it came time for him to shoot. 1 shot 1 kill in 30 seconds is a hell of a lot more impressive than 3 shots 1 kill in 26 or 30 seconds.


They should have made it a combo of the time and the amount of shots. Maybe add 5 seconds for each missed shot or something like that. They also should have not had all the contestants watching each other shoot. The way they did that challenge the first person to go was at a major disadvantage over the ones who shot later.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

zuko3984 said:


> They also should have not had all the contestants watching each other shoot.


I agree with that. They should do it like the challenges at the end. If you haven't competed yet you are sequestered. Would be fairer to everyone.


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## MarkofT (Jul 27, 2001)

I don't recall there being any rule changes from last season to this season. In the team challenges, they really couldn't objectively judge the worst since it was a side by side challenge.

After watching a couple of the guys run the first challenge this week it was kind of obvious to me that Jamie would win it. He's a Navy Rescue Swimmer. He is usually either shooting from a boat or a helicopter. Neither are all that stable.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

MarkofT said:


> I don't recall there being any rule changes from last season to this season. In the team challenges, they really couldn't objectively judge the worst since it was a side by side challenge.


IIRC, in the first season, once they went from teams to all the shooters competing as individuals, they no longer had voting for the elimination round. All eliminations from that point forward were determined by the challenges.

You weren't shooting to win immunity, you were shooting not to get eliminated.


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## Steve_Martin (Jul 18, 2004)

Hmm what about they vote for one guy to go to elimination and the other guy is determined by performance? Probably wouldn't eliminate the personality drama of this season.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Steve_Martin said:


> Hmm what about they vote for one guy to go to elimination and the other guy is determined by performance? Probably wouldn't eliminate the personality drama of this season.


I think an email to the producers are in order. Great idea!


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

ClutchBrake said:


> Perhaps Jamie is a really bad guy and I simply don't know it because I haven't watched, but if not, George and Ashley should be ashamed of themselves. What an embarrassment to themselves and their military brothers/sisters.


No you aren't misinterpreting anything. Jaime is to Season 2 what Kelly was to Season 1: the one everybody wants to pick on, for the most lame reasons. Kelly was due to perceived "immaturity" (never mind his detractors were acting even more childish) and Jaime because some feel he's being secretive and misleading about his Navy career.

Yet George is the one whom many current and ex-military feel is the one who is pumping up his resume. Those same folks are also quite embarrassed about the behavior of all the military-experienced members of Season 2, but in particular George.

George and Ashley and their fanboys/girls of course try to make excuses that "creative editing" is to blame. Creative editing does not create what does not exist. Creative editing does not make George say "F___ You" when asked about Jaime winning against Jay, and does not make Ashley totally blow off Jaime when saying his goodbyes to the remaining competitors.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

Steve_Martin said:


> Hmm what about they vote for one guy to go to elimination and the other guy is determined by performance? Probably wouldn't eliminate the personality drama of this season.


Once they go to equal footing competition (no more teams) than elimination should be based solely on performance in the competition. Worst 2 performers go to the elimination challenge.

It's /supposed/ to be free-for-all at that point, so why have the vote for elimination? All it does is introduce personality drama that is much better left on the cutting room floor.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

BTW if you do not want your viewing spoiled, DO NOT visit the Top Shot entry on Wikipedia:



Spoiler



There are only two episodes left, and we still have to put up with one more episode of possible George Reinas d-baggery. Only on the 12th and final episode will the final 4 contestants be eliminated solely on performance.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

Well I'm disappointed that Jamie didn't survive his fourth elimination challenge. But with his only-average performance on the suspended-shooting challenge, I can't say that him being voted in was totally unfair. 

George's anxiety over the challenge was picked up by Colby, and Jaime was looking forward to the challenge. Yet it was George who kicked Jaime's (and everybody else's) butt. So I do have to congratulate George for a job well done, but I still think he's a d-bag.

Unlike Season 1, I'm not rooting for anybody in the Final Four in particular. If anything I'm hoping it's "anybody but George."

I just hope that the producers go back to the old way and make elimination purely performance-based once they go to green shirts (and pick a different vendor for the green fleece sweaters...BLECH!). And that they pick people based upon how they shoot, and now necessarily how they interact, good, bad, or indifferent.

Supposedly ratings dropped a bit after the episode where Jay and Jamie were both sent to elimination "because they didn't fit in" so hopefully the producers will take note that d-bag-manship is something not wanted with Top Shot's target audience (pun intended).


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

George still annoys me especially his whining about the rickety contraption. Obviously it didn't bother him too much since he won.


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## luvmyhd (Feb 23, 2006)

George and Ashley make me almost ashamed to be ex-Air Force. Glad Ashley's gone. Wish George was too but I think he's the best shooter there.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

No offense to any Air Force people, because it I were to join the forces that's probably where I would go. 

But... As I understand it they really pamper the Air Force people so in guessing why those two are the biggest whiny brats on the show.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

#2 son is currently ADAF, hubby spent 12 years ADAF. 

They're both disgusted with George. He's a first class ******. I seriously don't know if I'll watch the rest of the competition, because of his attitude.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Obviously a horrible sample, and I probably shouldn't have even made that comment. I'm just trying to think of some reasoning to it. Ive always been impressed with he restraint of most military at are allowed on TV at least, but those guys are like spoiled babies.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

Someone posted on the History forums that while despicable, those sort of attitudes do come with "warrior mindsets" and it is leadership that suppresses the unwanted aspect while promoting the part you want.

To which I call BS.

1. I know several people who do some "intense" (for a lack of a better term) work in the military, and none behave like these two idiots;

2. They're both NCO's themselves, and they should not only be "suppressing" this sort of behavior but also showing subordinates the proper way to behave.

Ashley has proven that just because you are a war hero (Bronze Star) doesn't mean you're a good person on the inside.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Enjoyed the finale. George goes noble, and a good guy wins.


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## jeepair (Apr 22, 2004)

I was pulling for Joe but Chris is the next best thing.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

Was it just be or did anyone else find the whole finale lackluster. It was the same with season 1 and I figured for season 2 they'd step it up but I think it was even worse.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

how in the world did Gunny miss with the 22 rifle like he did? i thought the final was pretty lame, with George missing on purpose? wtf. so lame.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

What was with George's grip on the AR-15. Was he channeling Jay? 
Glad Chris won, he was a good guy on the show, reaching out to Jay on how his actions were being perceived by his teammates.


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## Tyrannosullyrex (Oct 6, 2004)

Ment said:


> What was with George's grip on the AR-15. Was he channeling Jay?
> Glad Chris won, he was a good guy on the show, reaching out to Jay on how his actions were being perceived by his teammates.


It's a "reverse" hold, it applies a bit of torque to the rifle which gets you a better cheek weld. R. Lee Ermey does it the same way.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Ment said:


> What was with George's grip on the AR-15. Was he channeling Jay?


That's one of the proper off-hand stances. (along with an untwisted wrist) I also shoot that way for off hand. Note that he's was also wearing a basic shooting glove. Though he goofed and was holding a bit too close. The shell bounced off his glove and stovepiped.

I chose the twisted wrist because if I relax my arm and wrist muscles, my arm "untwisting" will lock the hand to the rifle with no muscle effort at all, leaving only my skeletal structure to support the rifle.

--Carlos V.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Tyrannosullyrex said:


> It's a "reverse" hold, it applies a bit of torque to the rifle which gets you a better cheek weld. R. Lee Ermey does it the same way.





Unbeliever said:


> That's one of the proper off-hand stances. (along with an untwisted wrist) I also shoot that way for off hand. Note that he's was also wearing a basic shooting glove. Though he goofed and was holding a bit too close. The shell bounced off his glove and stovepiped.
> 
> I chose the twisted wrist because if I relax my arm and wrist muscles, my arm "untwisting" will lock the hand to the rifle with no muscle effort at all, leaving only my skeletal structure to support the rifle.
> 
> --Carlos V.


Ah ok, it looked wierd when he did opposite of Chris and Gunny. Wouldn't think George would need extra torque give the size of his arms.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Ment said:


> Ah ok, it looked wierd when he did opposite of Chris and Gunny. Wouldn't think George would need extra torque give the size of his arms.


For match shooting, you're not supposed to use your muscles at all. You're supposed to use a "natural point of aim" (NPOA) position/stance for prone, kneeling, sitting, and off-hand (standing).

Basically, get in the proper position, and get in a relaxed and supported position. If your sights are not on the target, move your body, not your arms.

Even if you're in good shape, your muscles get tired and wobbly very quickly holding up a gun. NPOA takes your muscles out of the picture.

Even Ermy does it:










--Carlos V.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

Awesome, awesome finale. I would've been happy with either of them winning, as long as George lost.

I'll disagree that he went 'noble' - I think he was an arrogant pr*** and it backfired on him.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

JoBeth66 said:


> Awesome, awesome finale. I would've been happy with either of them winning, as long as George lost.
> 
> I'll disagree that he went 'noble' - I think he was an arrogant pr*** and it backfired on him.


I think he was being half noble by making it Chris' called shot to tie/lose it but I think he missed the plate (not on purpose) and changed his tune to making it tied before going into Chris' shot.


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## jeepair (Apr 22, 2004)

The followup 1 hour show, George just comes out and admits he blew the shot on purpose. Not only the 1st one but the sharps shot as well. Or at least he says, you decide. I recall the shot not even registering on the paper/board the target was on. I think I saw it hit the dirt a few feet up and to the left. Hmm.

Chris' grip on the AR appeared that he was blocking the ejection port with his closed fist. Weird.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

jeepair said:


> The followup 1 hour show, George just comes out and admits he blew the shot on purpose. Not only the 1st one but the sharps shot as well. Or at least he says, you decide. I recall the shot not even registering on the paper/board the target was on. I think I saw it hit the dirt a few feet up and to the left. Hmm.


there is no way he missed that accidentally, that shot was super easy. and on a competition show like this, it is very lame to throw the game, imo. made me, as a viewer, turned off to the program / competition.


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## Big Deficit (Jul 8, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> Enjoyed the finale. George goes noble, and a good guy wins.


Noble would have been not letting anyone know you had missed the shot. What he did was insure that he couldn't really loose. He made it clear that he "magnanimously" allowed Chris to "win". Now he can claim to all his friends that he gave his less competent friend Chris the money and feel that he's not the dbag that he really is.


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

George is so full of it.

Either he accidentally missed the plate, or he was going to make it into a tie at the next round. But something went wrong and he lost. So instead of manning up, he tries to say he threw the competition.

I call BS.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

I think he missed the pistol shot on purpose. I do NOT think he missed the Sharps shot.

My guess is he was hoping after a tie with the Sharps they would get to shoot with a weapon they were both competent with. Then they would be on "equal" footing.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

ClutchBrake said:


> I think he missed the pistol shot on purpose. I do NOT think he missed the Sharps shot.


This. Look at his immediate reaction after each of those misses. Totally different.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

Intentional or not, his spin was just to boost his ego.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

busyba said:


> This. Look at his immediate reaction after each of those misses. Totally different.


I suppose you can call it karma for his behavior up to that point.

I feel a tiny bit bad for him. He could have taken the easy route and knocked Chris out.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

ClutchBrake said:


> He could have taken the easy route and knocked Chris out.


Even if he hit the plate, after the sharps they would have only been tied, so the plate shot would not have necessarily been a knockout punch.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

busyba said:


> Even if he hit the plate, after the sharps they would have only been tied, so the plate shot would not have necessarily been a knockout punch.


Gotcha. I FF'ed through most of the episode and didn't realize that.


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## jeepair (Apr 22, 2004)

busyba said:


> Even if he hit the plate, after the sharps they would have only been tied, so the plate shot would not have necessarily been a knockout punch.


Negative on that. George had 1 and Chris had 0 before they were shooting the pistols. If George hit the plate, it was over. He missed. Chris hit and it was 1-1.

Sharps: Chris hit and George missed. Chris 2 George 1. Game Over.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

jeepair said:


> Negative on that. George had 1 and Chris had 0 before they were shooting the pistols. If George hit the plate, it was over. He missed. Chris hit and it was 1-1.
> 
> Sharps: Chris hit and George missed. Chris 2 George 1. Game Over.


Exactly this, he was doing the smart thing.

By going for a simple shot (and should have made it) he was mathmatically locking himself in for the win. They even showed him saying that basically BEFORE he shot.

Seemed pretty straight forward and obvious that he was doing that, AND they showed it!


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

jeepair said:


> Negative on that. George had 1 and Chris had 0 before they were shooting the pistols. If George hit the plate, it was over. He missed. Chris hit and it was 1-1.
> 
> Sharps: Chris hit and George missed. Chris 2 George 1. Game Over.


1-0, yeah, but Chris hadn't shot at the plate yet when George missed. If George hits the plate, it's 2-0, then when Chris hits the plate (because there's almost no way he misses that shot) it's 2-1 going into the sharps.

At that point, George would be only a lock to at worst tie. He would not be a lock to win.

Granted, it puts a lot more pressure on Chris to make the sharps shot, and that can't be discounted. But George hitting the plate with the pistol was not going to 100% lock up the win.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

If you're up by 2, with 2 to go, _then_ calling a no-brainer shot is a winning strategy, because you then figure to end up still up 2 but with 1 to go, which would be a lock.

But he was only up 1 with 2 to go.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

ClutchBrake said:


> I suppose you can call it karma for his behavior up to that point.
> 
> *I feel a tiny bit bad for him.* He could have taken the easy route and knocked Chris out.


I don't feel bad for George at all. I'm glad he was sent home empty-handed.

At least Jaime got some Bass Pro gift cards as a consolation prize for having to put up with George's BS.


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