# No Download for Android?



## jpwbikes

TiVo updated their site to add "Coming Soon" for Android streaming. But the chart shows that downloading won't be available! We wait this long and don't get all the features? :down:

http://www.tivo.com/discover/service#watch-anywhere-container


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## Dan203

Could be a security issue. Android is a much less secure platform from a hacking perspective. Android does get LTE streaming which is not available on iOS.


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## Gadfly

What the hell?:down::down::down::down::down::down::down:


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## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> Could be a security issue. Android is a much less secure platform from a hacking perspective. Android does get LTE streaming which is not available on iOS.


Probably a CableLabs limitation...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/columnist/2014/09/07/tivo-ipad-app/15197005/


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## NotNowChief

After 2 years, did you REALLY expect a "fully-functioning" deployment? 

Yes there are security issues with Android. BUT, this is TiVo we're talking about. 

Did you REALLY expect it to be 100%?

You can't even get mad at it anymore, it's just pure comedy.


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## slowbiscuit

If this is true, major fail. There's plenty of times where d/l'ing a show on iOS works much better than streaming OOH. It's utter BS that you can use a third-party app like kmttg to do this (and immediately transfer to the Android device of your choice) but Tivo can't. For copy-freely shows, why in the world would they care? They're already freely transferable however you want, except in this case.

Ugh. Tivo has no balls.


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## bradleys

Oh, the Android users are going to loose their minds now! 

Look at it this way, at least you aren't a Windows Phone user!


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## Chris Gerhard

slowbiscuit said:


> For copy-freely shows, why in the world would they care? They're already freely transferable however you want, except in this case.
> 
> Ugh. Tivo has no balls.


Show me the law that indicates copyright protected programming is freely transferable however you want. I would like to read this law. It isn't included in the famous Betamax case, I have read that court ruling. We have the right to copy and watch at our convenience using whatever means we want, but transferring to others, go ahead and show me that.


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## sbiller

Chris Gerhard said:


> Show me the law that indicates copyright protected programming is freely transferable however you want. I would like to read this law. It isn't included in the famous Betamax case, I have read that court ruling. We have the right to copy and watch at our convenience using whatever means we want, but transferring to others, go ahead and show me that.


Read the USA Today article... this is related to TiVo's request to CableLabs for approval. They probably went the low risk route and didn't ask for permission to download.


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## Dan203

My guess as to the issue... TiVo uses an encrypted streaming protocol called HLS on iOS. Downloaded programs use the same protocol but store the encrypted stream locally for later playback. Normally with a live stream the client (iOS app) requests the decryption key from the server (Stream) via HTTPS and only uses it during playback, so it's completely secure against man in the middle attacks. For downloaded streams they have to store the key locally. iOS has facilities for encrypting data, protecting memory, and other things that make doing that pretty secure. Android is much more open and susceptible to hacking, so storing the key locally in an Android app is much less secure. CableLabs may not have allowed them to do downloading in Android because of this. This could actually be what took so long. Perhaps they originally applied for the right to do all the same features as iOS and got denied, so they had to reapply and wait. (CableLabs is slow with responses)

The other possibility is they have simply changed their mind about downloading since the original iOS app and the only reason iOS still has it is because it,s grandfathered in.


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## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> My guess as to the issue... TiVo uses an encrypted streaming protocol called HLS on iOS. Downloaded programs use the same protocol but store the encrypted stream locally for later playback. Normally with a live stream the client (iOS app) requests the decryption key from the server (Stream) via HTTPS and only uses it during playback, so it's completely secure against man in the middle attacks. For downloaded streams they have to store the key locally. iOS has facilities for encrypting data, protecting memory, and other things that make doing that pretty secure. Android is much more open and susceptible to hacking, so storing the key locally in an Android app is much less secure. CableLabs may not have allowed them to do downloading in Android because of this. This could actually be what took so long. Perhaps they originally applied for the right to do all the same features as iOS and got denied, so they had to reapply and wait. (CableLabs is slow with responses)
> 
> The other possibility is they have simply changed their mind about downloading since the original iOS app and the only reason iOS still has it is because it,s grandfathered in.


Dan, I think your analysis is probably correct. I heard some rumors last year that streaming on Android wasn't a technical issue.


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## Grakthis

jpwbikes said:


> TiVo updated their site to add "Coming Soon" for Android streaming. But the chart shows that downloading won't be available! We wait this long and don't get all the features? :down:
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/discover/service#watch-anywhere-container


Amazon just did this to us too. Finally get prime, with no downloading.


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## tivohaydon

Dan203 said:


> The other possibility is they have simply changed their mind about downloading since the original iOS app and the only reason iOS still has it is because it,s grandfathered in.


I'm going with this.

Android can store keys just as securely as IOS on many devices. Not like IOS can't be exploited / hacked / rooted.

I think they probably started the app about four months ago and decided they weren't going to do local storage. Or, they started it three years ago and local playback is coming soon. You know, like three years from today.

Doesn't really help me watch a show on plane flight.

Ridiculous.


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## ilovedvrs

WTF.... no downloads??

why did I buy this stupid device a 2nd time...

why couldn't they told us a few weeks ago that it would be CRIPPLED....

idiots...


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## bradleys

Slingbox doesn't let you download, DirectTV doesn't let you download - Once LTE streaming is opened up, they very well may pull download from IOS.

Real world, I don't really use the download functionality - The only real use case is since IOS does not stream over LTE, I will start a download to watch, but it gets deleted right away. It is just too large and eats up a lot of space very quickly.

There is a pretty good work around if you are interested. A combination of PyTiVo and Plex will allow you to watch over LTE and download any content. Not as easy, but it works....

Now, if we could just initiate a PyTiVo transfer over LTE...


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## kdmorse

Dan203 said:


> My guess as to the issue... TiVo uses an encrypted streaming protocol called HLS on iOS. Downloaded programs use the same protocol but store the encrypted stream locally for later playback. Normally with a live stream the client (iOS app) requests the decryption key from the server (Stream) via HTTPS and only uses it during playback, so it's completely secure against man in the middle attacks. For downloaded streams they have to store the key locally. iOS has facilities for encrypting data, protecting memory, and other things that make doing that pretty secure. Android is much more open and susceptible to hacking, so storing the key locally in an Android app is much less secure. CableLabs may not have allowed them to do downloading in Android because of this. This could actually be what took so long. Perhaps they originally applied for the right to do all the same features as iOS and got denied, so they had to reapply and wait. (CableLabs is slow with responses)


While you are probably completely correct - my problem with this argument is (and always has been) - who cares?

Everyone acts as if this is somehow going to open a gigantic hole leading to mass piracy of shows. Once the show is downloaded to a insecure device, it could be extracted, and uploaded to the internet.

But...... *they're already on the internet*.... Nobody's going to use a Android Phone connected to a Tivo Stream as their primary path for capturing True Blood off of HBO and uploading it to the internet. There are far easier, faster, and less convoluted ways. By the time you bounced it through your stream, to an android device, it'd already be there.

Attempting to prevent piracy by blocking downloads from streams to android devices is like attempting to prevent global warning by banning the sale of candles...


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## moyekj

IMO with no downloads Stream would be pretty useless for me. OOH streaming is already heavily crippled because of the Proxy server throttling and Stream doesn't deliver good picture with low bandwidth compared to Slingbox. It was nice to just be able to use Stream to easily transfer a bunch of shows to iPad before going on a trip. If that goes away then it's back to the old TTG model which works but is a lot more cumbersome.
Even for in home use I tend to use downloads more as trick play is faster on downloads and you don't get the stupid "pause bug" for downloads as you do for streaming.


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## JWhites

Dan203 said:


> My guess as to the issue... TiVo uses an encrypted streaming protocol called HLS on iOS. Downloaded programs use the same protocol but store the encrypted stream locally for later playback. Normally with a live stream the client (iOS app) requests the decryption key from the server (Stream) via HTTPS and only uses it during playback, so it's completely secure against man in the middle attacks. For downloaded streams they have to store the key locally. iOS has facilities for encrypting data, protecting memory, and other things that make doing that pretty secure. Android is much more open and susceptible to hacking, so storing the key locally in an Android app is much less secure. CableLabs may not have allowed them to do downloading in Android because of this. This could actually be what took so long. Perhaps they originally applied for the right to do all the same features as iOS and got denied, so they had to reapply and wait. (CableLabs is slow with responses)
> 
> The other possibility is they have simply changed their mind about downloading since the original iOS app and the only reason iOS still has it is because it,s grandfathered in.


I agree as well, one of the tech agents I spoke to the other day mentioned that Android just recently became compatible with TiVo this year.


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## Chris Gerhard

sbiller said:


> Read the USA Today article... this is related to TiVo's request to CableLabs for approval. They probably went the low risk route and didn't ask for permission to download.


I was responding to the claim, as if it is a legal right, that content flagged as copy freely can be transferred to anybody. I am sure there is no such law and I believe there can be no reasonable conclusion that fair use includes that right.

TiVo's reasons for not allowing downloading with Android is not clear to me, I think it would be a legal feature and not challenged in court but that has nothing to do with the broad claim made which is all I responded to.

Does anybody know if Vudu allows downloading to Android?


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## slowbiscuit

Chris Gerhard said:


> Show me the law that indicates copyright protected programming is freely transferable however you want. I would like to read this law. It isn't included in the famous Betamax case, I have read that court ruling. We have the right to copy and watch at our convenience using whatever means we want, but transferring to others, go ahead and show me that.


 Most reasonable folks would have interpreted my comment to mean 'for personal use', obviously you did not.


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## slowbiscuit

bradleys said:


> There is a pretty good work around if you are interested. A combination of PyTiVo and Plex will allow you to watch over LTE and download any content. Not as easy, but it works....


That was exactly my point - these shows are not encrypted and can be freely transferred however you want (for personal use, Chris) via plenty of other means, so why is it that Tivo can't work this out with CableLabs?

Like kdmorse said, the cat was well and truly out of the bag years ago so I don't understand why these Neanderthals think that making life harder for folks that pay for the content is a good business model.


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## ilovedvrs

Yes, VUDO allows download to Android...

I think the feature is missing because the engineering team are idiots. They all got fired last year.

We still have NON-HD setting pages!! loading youtube is non-HD.. both make my projector have to resize, its very disturbing....

Tivo has made me really upset, we give them so much time and they stagnate.


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## slowbiscuit

It's really more that they have terrible lawyers and/or enjoy bowing down at the feet of their cable overlords, usually because they're in bed with them for other revenue.

Us consumers are the end of the chain, money-wise.


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## jrtroo

ilovedvrs said:


> We still have NON-HD setting pages!! loading youtube is non-HD.. both make my projector have to resize, its very disturbing....
> 
> Tivo has made me really upset, we give them so much time and they stagnate.


Tivo owner problems are not like other people's problems.

Tivo does take their time, no doubt. I think many are optimistic that the change to Haxe will speed things up, it must have been slowing other enhancements as it was being implemented. There is clearly more on the near-term horizon of promises and leaks/rumors than I can remember.


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## Dan203

bradleys said:


> Slingbox doesn't let you download, DirectTV doesn't let you download - Once LTE streaming is opened up, they very well may pull download from IOS.


The "they" I was referring to in my post was Cable Labs, not TiVo. TiVo is likely grandfathered into being allowed to support downloads on iOS, so I doubt that will go away.


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## Chris Gerhard

ilovedvrs said:


> Yes, VUDO allows download to Android...
> 
> I think the feature is missing because the engineering team are idiots. They all got fired last year.
> 
> We still have NON-HD setting pages!! loading youtube is non-HD.. both make my projector have to resize, its very disturbing....
> 
> Tivo has made me really upset, we give them so much time and they stagnate.


If Vudu thinks downloads with Android are OK, I would think it should be alright for TiVo as well. There must be a reason other than DRM concerns. Vudu has been pretty strict in my experience but has sure become more consumer friendly lately.


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## Dan203

Vudu = WalMart, which is the largest retailer in the world. They wield an extraordinary amount of power when it comes to negotiations like this. Plus they are only dealing with the MPAA or individual studios, not Cable Labs.


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## Nak

Wow. Major disappointment. I travel for a living to places with poor or no internet. I know I can download shows now--and I do--but it is a convoluted process. I have other things to do the night before I leave on a no-notice trip. It would have been nice to flag a few shows for download and then left the tablet to do it's thing.  At least I was suspicious enough not to waste my time running out to buy a stream!


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## PCurry57

Nak said:


> Wow. Major disappointment. I travel for a living to places with poor or no internet. I know I can download shows now--and I do--but it is a convoluted process. I have other things to do the night before I leave on a no-notice trip. It would have been nice to flag a few shows for download and then left the tablet to do it's thing.  At least I was suspicious enough not to waste my time running out to buy a stream!


Setup your PC to auto download favorite shows keeping only a few, auto convert them then when you need them their ready just transfer them over.


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## PCurry57

Chris Gerhard said:


> If Vudu thinks downloads with Android are OK, I would think it should be alright for TiVo as well. There must be a reason other than DRM concerns. Vudu has been pretty strict in my experience but has sure become more consumer friendly lately.


Are the downloads your getting via vudo actually UltraViolet digital copies because CinemaNow (Best Buy) also provides mobile access to UltraViolet.


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## Austin Bike

That is unacceptable to delay that long and then have a neutered product. I am guessing the issue was legal/rights all along, not necessarily technical.


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## Dan203

I'm betting you're right.


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## Grakthis

bradleys said:


> Slingbox doesn't let you download, DirectTV doesn't let you download - Once LTE streaming is opened up, they very well may pull download from IOS.
> 
> Real world, I don't really use the download functionality - The only real use case is since IOS does not stream over LTE, I will start a download to watch, but it gets deleted right away. It is just too large and eats up a lot of space very quickly.
> 
> There is a pretty good work around if you are interested. A combination of PyTiVo and Plex will allow you to watch over LTE and download any content. Not as easy, but it works....
> 
> Now, if we could just initiate a PyTiVo transfer over LTE...


The download functionality is a big deal for me. I own a Kindle Fire almost exclusively because I can buy Disney movies on release and get the free digital copy, which I then register on Amazon, and can then download to the kindle fire. And now my 3 year old daughter can watch her movies on the tablet in the car or on an airplane.

Having this ability with our Nexus 7 tablet and shows on the TiVo would have been a big deal.


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## Grakthis

PCurry57 said:


> Setup your PC to auto download favorite shows keeping only a few, auto convert them then when you need them their ready just transfer them over.


Yeah, this never works as well as you'd like. It takes like 45 minutes to rip and encode, and it always seems to fail at least once or twice. And then another 15 minutes to copying everything over, and I have to go plug in the tablet and copy the files over to it. And the files are stuck in the video folder on google's video app under "My collection."

It's cumbersome and is something I have to think of with an hour+ to spare. This is wildly different from just clicking a button on the TiVo app and and then walking away.


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## greenpad

I agree things occasionally go wrong, but I've auto-downloaded and recompressed everything my tivo records for several years. I have noticed that I have more trouble with the handbrake presets, so I use the others, but I've probably done this with 2-3000 shows over the years with few fails. I even have pretty good luck cutting commercials. 

Don't get me wrong, I wish the stream did this so I didn't have to, but the current kmttg setup works very well for me.


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## JWhites

From what I heard today, it was a copyright issue making sure all was ok before they could move forward.


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## Dan203

I wonder why it would effect "copy freely" content? The whole point of the CC spec having flags is so they could limit features on a content by content basis. I wonder why they even have to ask for permission for this?

I wish I knew exactly how this whole process worked. What does and does not require permission, etc...


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## tivohaydon

Dan203 said:


> I wonder why it would effect "copy freely" content?


It doesn't affect Copy Freely content... If you don't use a CableCard.

When I last did a ton of reading on this (real documents, not internet chatter) I believe if you use a CableCard you're subject to whatever CableLabs desires.

It's either that or a more mundane decision not to confuse customers and generate support calls about "why can I download ABC show X but not my HBO movie"?


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## lpwcomp

jpwbikes said:


> TiVo updated their site to add "Coming Soon" for Android streaming. But the chart shows that downloading won't be available! We wait this long and don't get all the features? :down:
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/discover/service#watch-anywhere-container


The Web page has conflicting information. The table indicates that downloading isn't available on Android but the footnotes at the top indicate that streaming requires IOS and downloading will be available on Android soon. Or am I misreading it? Entirely possible since I am reading it on my Galaxy S4.


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## Austin Bike

Dan203 said:


> I wonder why it would effect "copy freely" content? The whole point of the CC spec having flags is so they could limit features on a content by content basis. I wonder why they even have to ask for permission for this?
> 
> I wish I knew exactly how this whole process worked. What does and does not require permission, etc...


Having spent most of my life in marketing and dealing with lawyers, I would bet that while it may be obvious to all of us, there was probably someone saying "yeah, but, what if...."

Believe it or not, I once had a lawyer question me when we said that a 2.4GHz processor was faster than a 2.2GHz processor. They wanted substantiation. They finally backed down when I lost my cool and yelled out "it's f*&^%$# math guys...." Sometimes people get so worried about the stupidest lawsuits that they make everything drag out and become more complicated than it should be.


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## slowbiscuit

tivohaydon said:


> It doesn't affect Copy Freely content... If you don't use a CableCard.
> 
> When I last did a ton of reading on this (real documents, not internet chatter) I believe if you use a CableCard you're subject to whatever CableLabs desires.
> 
> It's either that or a more mundane decision not to confuse customers and generate support calls about "why can I download ABC show X but not my HBO movie"?


That issue already exists today for iOS, there's no new support problem here. There's no logical reason why Tivo can't do whatever they want with copy freely shows EXCEPT for the fact that CableLabs has them by the balls. Tivo doesn't want to fight them because they depend on cable for other revenue, so we get the shaft because they won't stand up for what's right (and what's already way out of the barn anyway).

I swear this company is two steps forward, one back, in almost everything they do.


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## Dan203

tivohaydon said:


> It's either that or a more mundane decision not to confuse customers and generate support calls about "why can I download ABC show X but not my HBO movie"?


They already do this in the iOS app. If you select a protected show the Download button is grayed out. If you click it anyway then you get a pop up saying "download is prevent by copyright holder". It makes perfect sense and I can't imagine is causes any user confusion.


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## LI-SVT

bradleys said:


> Slingbox doesn't let you download, DirectTV doesn't let you download - Once LTE streaming is opened up, they very well may pull download from IOS.
> 
> Real world, I don't really use the download functionality - The only real use case is since IOS does not stream over LTE, I will start a download to watch, but it gets deleted right away. It is just too large and eats up a lot of space very quickly.
> 
> There is a pretty good work around if you are interested. A combination of PyTiVo and Plex will allow you to watch over LTE and download any content. Not as easy, but it works....
> 
> Now, if we could just initiate a PyTiVo transfer over LTE...


I can download DirecTv content to my Android 2.3 phone and my Windows 7 laptop.


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## Diana Collins

bradleys said:


> Slingbox doesn't let you download, *DirectTV doesn't let you download* - Once LTE streaming is opened up, they very well may pull download from IOS....


Yes they do.


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## Dan203

DirecTV is a little different as they are the MSO and have deals directly with the content providers. TiVo is once removed and has to do whatever Cable Labs tells them to do. This is likely also the reason why OOH streaming is prevented on protected channels.


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## Grakthis

Didn't Direct TV get sued over this? Or am I thinking of Dish?


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## Dan203

Dish is currently being sued by Fox over their Slingbox functionality and an auto commercial skip feature. I remember reading that a few of DirecTVs content providers were not happy about their functionality either, but I'm not sure if any actually took them to court.


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## mr_smits

moyekj said:


> IMO with no downloads Stream would be pretty useless for me. OOH streaming is already heavily crippled because of the Proxy server throttling and Stream doesn't deliver good picture with low bandwidth compared to Slingbox. It was nice to just be able to use Stream to easily transfer a bunch of shows to iPad before going on a trip. If that goes away then it's back to the old TTG model which works but is a lot more cumbersome.
> Even for in home use I tend to use downloads more as trick play is faster on downloads and you don't get the stupid "pause bug" for downloads as you do for streaming.


I recently used Stream to iPad on a trip, and boy -- the quality of the picture was much worse than SD. I know much was the poor connection, but it was unwatchable. We powered through about a quarter of the show, paused and then set it to download the remaining show overnight. Crisp HD.


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## tivohaydon

Dan203 said:


> They already do this in the iOS app. If you select a protected show the Download button is grayed out. If you click it anyway then you get a pop up saying "download is prevent by copyright holder". It makes perfect sense and I can't imagine is causes any user confusion.


True. I believe that they've simply gotten more restrictive over time. Can't have a wild west out there when there are ways of charging you more for accessing content you already paid for. Sigh.


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## tatergator1

For those on Time Warner, it's not as big an issue because there's not much you can download anyway. Only the locals are marked Copy Freely on TWC, so that's all you can download for digital cable.

One of the main reasons I keep my Premiere 2-tuner is to run it off the analog channels TWC still provides so I can then download shows for my kids to the iPad thanks to the Analog Hole.


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## Dan203

tivohaydon said:


> True. I believe that they've simply gotten more restrictive over time. Can't have a wild west out there when there are ways of charging you more for accessing content you already paid for. Sigh.


That may be what the content providers want but I'm sure TiVo would love to support download if they could. They'd probably also like to support streaming of protected content OOH. Unfortunately because of how the system is designed they are at the mercy of Cable Labs, and they're likely the ones pulling on the reins.


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## Diana Collins

One big difference between IOS and Android is that no IOS device supports removable storage while most (nearly all) Android devices do, and most apps can store data on the removable storage. That makes it possible to unlawfully distribute copies of protected content with no (or, even if TiVo were to encrypt the recordings on the device, little) hacking required, and absolutely no hacking of the device itself. If you could get a recording onto a PC, it would take about a week (I'm being conservative) before someone had a program that would decrypt the recording and convert it to a playable MPEG file.

Sure, you can access the file system on an IOS device, but you have to jailbreak the device first, which greatly reduces the number of people that will have the ability to distribute content.


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## JWhites

mr_smits said:


> I recently used Stream to iPad on a trip, and boy -- the quality of the picture was much worse than SD. I know much was the poor connection, but it was unwatchable. We powered through about a quarter of the show, paused and then set it to download the remaining show overnight. Crisp HD.


Gotta say, I was on my own trip for over a month and even when using TravelCenters of America wifi, the picture quality was pretty damn good. I think it was really the connection that was causing you problems dude.


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## Dan203

When I was in Yellowstone the wifi at the hotel sucked, so I set my phone to hotspot mode and used it to stream instead. Worked pretty good. I did download some shows overnight using hotel wifi though to save data. (Only have 10GB plan)


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## slowbiscuit

Diana Collins said:


> One big difference between IOS and Android is that no IOS device supports removable storage while most (nearly all) Android devices do, and most apps can store data on the removable storage. That makes it possible to unlawfully distribute copies of protected content with no (or, even if TiVo were to encrypt the recordings on the device, little) hacking required, and absolutely no hacking of the device itself. If you could get a recording onto a PC, it would take about a week (I'm being conservative) before someone had a program that would decrypt the recording and convert it to a playable MPEG file.


Um yeah, but we're all talking about UNPROTECTED content here. Why is it that I can freely download a show to a PC and then to a mobile device (any device), but can't do it directly from a Tivo? Or just freely download it directly to a Windows tablet? And all it would take is someone writing an Android app to emulate pyTivo, kmttg etc. functionality to do the same?

But Tivo can't do it themselves? Seriously?


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## Dan203

I agree. In fact I was thinking about writing such an app myself. Something that had a companion app running on a PC that would do the downloading and conversion, then send it directly to an app on the Android device. The only issue with doing something like that is there would be a lag. Last time I checked the TiVo decoder filter included with TiVo desktop (needed for legal decryption) was not progressive. Meaning it did not dynamically update the video length as it was being downloaded. So you'd have to wait for the full video to download before you could decrypt and recode.


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## mr_smits

Diana Collins said:


> One big difference between IOS and Android is that no IOS device supports removable storage while most (nearly all) Android devices do, and most apps can store data on the removable storage. That makes it possible to unlawfully distribute copies of protected content with no (or, even if TiVo were to encrypt the recordings on the device, little) hacking required, and absolutely no hacking of the device itself. If you could get a recording onto a PC, it would take about a week (I'm being conservative) before someone had a program that would decrypt the recording and convert it to a playable MPEG file.
> 
> Sure, you can access the file system on an IOS device, but you have to jailbreak the device first, which greatly reduces the number of people that will have the ability to distribute content.


We all know iOS is big on treating its users like children, but I find it a bit hard to believe that downloaded shows using Tivo app are not protected in some basic way. Does anyone have a jailbroken iPhone that can verify this?


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## Grakthis

Diana Collins said:


> One big difference between IOS and Android is that no IOS device supports removable storage while most (nearly all) Android devices do, and most apps can store data on the removable storage. That makes it possible to unlawfully distribute copies of protected content with no (or, even if TiVo were to encrypt the recordings on the device, little) hacking required, and absolutely no hacking of the device itself. If you could get a recording onto a PC, it would take about a week (I'm being conservative) before someone had a program that would decrypt the recording and convert it to a playable MPEG file.
> 
> Sure, you can access the file system on an IOS device, but you have to jailbreak the device first, which greatly reduces the number of people that will have the ability to distribute content.


Yeah, this isn't really a valid point. You can copy files off of an iPhone a number of ways without jail breaking it, and just because "many" TiVo apps let you put data on removable media doesn't inherently mean that the TiVo app would or that TiVo couldn't prevent it.

There may be a good security based reason why downloads aren't allowed... it might be the same reason Amazon doesn't allow them. But if there is, it's not "because iPhones don't have removable media."


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## crxssi

Diana Collins said:


> One big difference between IOS and Android is that no IOS device supports removable storage while most (nearly all) Android devices do, .


This is not a reason. In fact, most of the high end Android devices now do NOT support removable storage (SD cards). Nexus 5/7/10? No. HTC One? No. LG G? No. Moto X? No. ZTE Max? No. A few do. And many support USB storage or internal transfer (but it can be restricted by apps).


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## DebiLee

I'm tired of everyone speculating on reasons they are not privy to. TiVo is finally letting Android users stream shows. That's a big deal and should be appreciated and celebrated. It's perfectly acceptable to say that Android is less secure, easier to hack, and untrustworthy when it comes to allowing less then savory characters access to content they shouldn't and it's understandable and justifiable that either TiVo, the content owners, or CableLabs simply don't want this to happen. Depending on how it's looked at, it's kinda Android's fault for being open source and cultivating this culture.


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## lpwcomp

DebiLee said:


> I'm tired of everyone speculating on reasons they are not privy to. TiVo is finally letting Android users stream shows. That's a big deal and should be appreciated and celebrated. It's perfectly acceptable to say that Android is less secure, easier to hack, and untrustworthy when it comes to allowing less then savory characters access to content they shouldn't and it's understandable and justifiable that either TiVo, the content owners, or CableLabs simply don't want this to happen. Depending on how it's looked at, it's kinda Android's fault for being open source and cultivating this culture.


It's actually pretty stupid since unprotected content can be freely transferred to a computer. It *is* encrypted and, although the encryption is easily removed, maybe it is enough to legally cover TiVos fundament.


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## Dan203

mr_smits said:


> We all know iOS is big on treating its users like children, but I find it a bit hard to believe that downloaded shows using Tivo app are not protected in some basic way. Does anyone have a jailbroken iPhone that can verify this?


The data is stored in the app and prevented from being backed up from the device even when doing a protected backup, so the only way to get at it is to jailbreak. And even then the data is stored as encrypted HLS segments. I assume the key is stored using the built in encrypted data storage API provided by iOS so that only the app can access

That being said all of that seems completely unnecessary. You're only allowed to download content marked as "copy freely" to any device you want. In Windows Media Center "copy freely" content is stored completely unencrypted and can easily be moved to another PC as-is, or read and used by 3rd party software like VideoReDo. It is not required to be encrypted in any way. TiVo never really explained why they encrypted TiVoToGo stuff, but I assume they did it just to cover their butts after ReplayTV got sued out of existence due to their show sharing feature. However they later added a feature to TiVo Dekstop Plus that generates a completely unprotected MP4 file, so I'm not sure why they feel the need to protect stuff so heavily when dealing with the Stream as the encoder instead of the PC.

One guess... I think they might be planning to skirt the "copy once" flag by allowing you to "move" a show from your TiVo to your iPad. Technically they're allowed to move a "copy once" recording to another device as long as it's never accessible on both devices simultaneously. However to do that they would need to protect the path, meaning the whole process would have to use encryption that Cable Labs approved of. The current protection could just be in place so that when/if that feature comes along they can protect the path without a major update.


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## PCurry57

Per documentation TiVo Stream download doesn't work on jail-broken devices. Android devices rooting them is perhaps more common and apps exist to hide the root su binary. I don't know if such an app exist for iOS, I'm thinking not because Apple keeps a tight reign on iOS and devices


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## JWhites

Speaking of the one of TiVo's webpages seems to be all "Access Denied" for no reason. https://www.tivo.com/content/tivo-app-smartphones-and-tablets
This popped up when I clicked on "Find out which TiVo app features are available with your TiVo DVR" on this webpage. https://www.tivo.com/my-account/how-to/how-use-tivo-app-ipad

It's really weird.


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## JWhites

Check this out http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/76.1904 I think this might be of interest.


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## Austin Bike

DebiLee said:


> I'm tired of everyone speculating on reasons they are not privy to. TiVo is finally letting Android users stream shows. That's a big deal and should be appreciated and celebrated. It's perfectly acceptable to say that Android is less secure, easier to hack, and untrustworthy when it comes to allowing less then savory characters access to content they shouldn't and it's understandable and justifiable that either TiVo, the content owners, or CableLabs simply don't want this to happen. Depending on how it's looked at, it's kinda Android's fault for being open source and cultivating this culture.


Early on there were people saying "just get the app out there and we'll be happy." My contention was that if they just put an app out that you would see 2 sets of complaints, one being "not enough features" and the other being "its not supported by my device. My contention was that it would be harder to keep the andriod crowd happy because of the variance.

The longer they waited the worse this became. If the android app was out at the same time but lacked features (for whatever legal/technical issue) it would have been easier to swallow. But their inability to get the product to market made it worse.

But I do believe I called it right to all those that said just get something out - it seems like an easy call but it is hard to make people happy, even if you give them exactly what they are asking for.

And it is not "android's fault", that is just their business model. If it is a legal issue, it is the content owners' fault.


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## slowbiscuit

DebiLee said:


> I'm tired of everyone speculating on reasons they are not privy to. TiVo is finally letting Android users stream shows. That's a big deal and should be appreciated and celebrated. It's perfectly acceptable to say that Android is less secure, easier to hack, and untrustworthy when it comes to allowing less then savory characters access to content they shouldn't and it's understandable and justifiable that either TiVo, the content owners, or CableLabs simply don't want this to happen. Depending on how it's looked at, it's kinda Android's fault for being open source and cultivating this culture.


Yeah, it's Android's fault that these shows can all be found on torrents immediately after airing too.  In fact it's all Android's fault that I can easily transfer shows to it indirectly from a Tivo, but Tivo can't do it themselves.

Yep, I think Android is the problem here. Not CableLabs or the content industry that refuses to face facts of course.


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## DebiLee

And slowbiscuit just proved my point. This mindset and behavior is exactly why it's been spolied for the rest of the Android community. Content owners will see this behavior and start restricting things even more, maybe to the point where it affects iOS users too. If it wasn't for people putting stuff on torrants there would not be this problem.


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## murgatroyd

mr_smits said:


> We all know iOS is big on treating its users like children


Apple has good reasons for the design decisions it makes. 
You may not like they way they do things, but that's no reason to be ageist about it.


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## slowbiscuit

DebiLee said:


> And slowbiscuit just proved my point. This mindset and behavior is exactly why it's been spolied for the rest of the Android community. Content owners will see this behavior and start restricting things even more, maybe to the point where it affects iOS users too. If it wasn't for people putting stuff on torrants there would not be this problem.


You really have no idea what you're talking about. Android has nothing to do with paranoid content owners treating their customers like dirt with all these arbitrary restrictions that can easily be worked around, same as the music industry used to do.


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## mr_smits

murgatroyd said:


> Apple has good reasons for the design decisions it makes.
> You may not like they way they do things, but that's no reason to be ageist about it.


Are you sure about that?

Back when I was a cord cutter, I wanted to watch MLB playoffs but I didn't have access to TBS/TNT. Instead, I used a VPN overseas, subscribed to the MLB streaming package for internationals, and used it to watch the games. I wanted to watch on the iPad, but Apple has GPS tattling with apps enabled -- there is no option to disable it. I was able to connect my laptop and watch the games, but the level of freakish control Apple built into iOS to require geolocating without permission is like that of a parent and a young child.


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## Aero 1

mr_smits said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> Back when I was a cord cutter, I wanted to watch MLB playoffs but I didn't have access to TBS/TNT. Instead, I used a VPN overseas, subscribed to the MLB streaming package for internationals, and used it to watch the games. I wanted to watch on the iPad, but Apple has GPS tattling with apps enabled -- there is no option to disable it. I was able to connect my laptop and watch the games, but the level of freakish control Apple built into iOS to require geolocating without permission is like that of a parent and a young child.


that's the most ridiculous example ever. the MLB app is using the GPS on the phone to make sure you don't break their blackout and licensing restrictions that are negotiated. this also happens on an android phone with GPS. Apple is not treating you like a child because it doesn't help you break MLB licensing rules.


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## mr_smits

Aero 1 said:


> that's the most ridiculous example ever. the MLB app is using the GPS on the phone to make sure you don't break their blackout and licensing restrictions that are negotiated. this also happens on an android phone with GPS. Apple is not treating you like a child because it doesn't help you break MLB licensing rules.


I was using an iPad, not a phone. When I tried it on my Android phone, I was able to connect to VPN and use the app, but I wanted to watch on a larger screen. That's why I went to the next largest screen: laptop.

Without a cable subscription, I was unable to watch any playoff games.

Thanks to capitalism and the fact that VPNs are absolutely legal, I paid for international access to MLB games and jumped through all the hoops until iOS stopped me in my completely legal tracks.


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## JWhites

Wifi only iPads and iPods use AGPS via wifi on the network to find its approximate location instead of GPS through the cellular connection like iPhones and cellular enabled iPads.


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## Austin Bike

mr_smits said:


> I was using an iPad, not a phone. When I tried it on my Android phone, I was able to connect to VPN and use the app, but I wanted to watch on a larger screen. That's why I went to the next largest screen: laptop.
> 
> Without a cable subscription, I was unable to watch any playoff games.
> 
> Thanks to capitalism and the fact that VPNs are absolutely legal, I paid for international access to MLB games and jumped through all the hoops until iOS stopped me in my completely legal tracks.


Completely legal tracks? At some point I am pretty sure that the international version of the MLB is not intended for US audiences and I am guessing that the "licensing" of the show you watched was not legal for a US resident.

This is not an apple issue, this is an MLB issue. I am sure that if you dig through the terms of use somewhere you'll see that international shows are intended for international audiences only.

Just because you found a way around it doesn't mean it was "completely legal".


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## slowbiscuit

Might be a ToS violation but IMO not illegal.


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## SQUIDWARD360

If You Circumvent, Or Attempt To Circumvent, Any Blackout Restriction Or Other Use Restriction: Your Subscription Will Be Subject To Immediate Termination And A Charge Of One Hundred Dollars ($100.00) For Early Termination; You May Be Subject To Legal Action; And Mlbam Reserves The Right To Report Such Misconduct To Appropriate Law Enforcement Authorities.


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## JWhites

slowbiscuit said:


> Might be a ToS violation but IMO not illegal.


Don't forget the moral implications.


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