# Lost 3/23 "Ab Aeterno"



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I just lost my freaking mind. That is all.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

jking said:


> I just lost my freaking mind. That is all.


This.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

What a great hour of television. Was I the only one who got a tear in my eye when Richard was talking to his wife at the end?


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Wow. Jaw meet floor.

I'm still processing but I have to say i'm thoroughly impressed by Nestor Carbonell's performance. Amazing. Definitely had a few tears during the scene with his wife.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jking said:


> I just lost my freaking mind. That is all.


I found it -- buried next to Isabella's necklace.

What a powerful episode. I really liked Hugo's role at the end. That was a great scene with Ricardo and Isabella. And I think they answered the question as to which is the good guy and which is the bad guy.

That ship flying into the statue (I assume on a gigantic wave) and landing in the forest still seemed odd. If the slaves (property of Magnus Hanso) could see El Diablo through the planks of the wooden ship during the nighttime storm, I would really have expected it to sustain significantly more damage.

I thought I also caught the name Widfield as one of the commanding officers of the ship before they identified Hanso. Could Widmore be a descendant of Widfield? I think that is part of the reason why Widmore was buying up Black Rock stuff at auction way back in Season 1 or 2 or 3.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Amazing!


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

This episode may infuriate the "nothing is happening!" crowd, but (a) boy would they be wrong about this one; and (b) I wouldn't trade it for anything. What a magnificent hour of TV. And so incredibly played by Nestor Carbonell. 

Just fantastic.


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

jking said:


> I just lost my freaking mind. That is all.


+1


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Are my eyes shot or after ever cut was everything out of focus for half a second?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Are my eyes shot or after ever cut was everything out of focus for half a second?


I suppose when you are trying to look through tears ...


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Are my eyes shot or after ever cut was everything out of focus for half a second?


Nope, I noticed this a handful of time too.

But wow, that was awesome. I'm assuming Nestor Carbonell is Richard--what an incredible actor. He seemed so consumed in that "new" character. Good stuff.


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

one thing i'm wondering, last year they showed jacob and man in black during a sunny day with what i thought was the blackrock off shore, then in this episode it was night and storming.. another ship perhaps? and when ben killed jacob did anyone notice the handle? seemed like a regular knife, but i could be wrong, it looks like a very specific knife has to be used.. and, how could ben have killed jacob if jacob had already spoken a couple words to him, seems like they're very specific about how it has to be done.. 

not trying to nitpick, i love this show, and thought it was a great episode


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Everyone just assumed it was the Black Rock. It could easily have been another ship that arrived before or after the Black Rock.


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

robbhimself said:


> one thing i'm wondering, last year they showed jacob and man in black during a sunny day with what i thought was the blackrock off shore, then in this episode it was night and storming.. another ship perhaps? and when ben killed jacob did anyone notice the handle? seemed like a regular knife, but i could be wrong, it looks like a very specific knife has to be used.. and, how could ben have killed jacob if jacob had already spoken a couple words to him, seems like they're very specific about how it has to be done..
> 
> not trying to nitpick, i love this show, and thought it was a great episode


I think the don't let him speak to you thing isn't literally if he speaks you can't kill him. Instead it's, if he starts talking he's going to talk you out of doing this.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Odd that Jacob would fight against Richard, but was willing to let Ben kill him.

Awesome episode though... wonder if we will see an episode where smokey got the body he was in during this episode?


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

yeah, could have been another ship, i was just throwing it out there

also, i agree about the speaking first talking someone out of it, but if that were the case, why couldn't sayid kill locke.. because he was infected?


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

robbhimself said:


> one thing i'm wondering, last year they showed jacob and man in black during a sunny day with what i thought was the blackrock off shore, then in this episode it was night and storming.. another ship perhaps? and when ben killed jacob did anyone notice the handle? seemed like a regular knife, but i could be wrong, it looks like a very specific knife has to be used.. and, how could ben have killed jacob if jacob had already spoken a couple words to him, seems like they're very specific about how it has to be done..
> 
> not trying to nitpick, i love this show, and thought it was a great episode


I thought that was the crazy French ladies ship? I think it was the same knife Ben used.


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

robbhimself said:


> yeah, could have been another ship, i was just throwing it out there
> 
> also, i agree about the speaking first talking someone out of it, but if that were the case, why couldn't sayid kill locke.. because he was infected?


It had already been shown that Smokey/Locke can't be physically hurt when he was shot by Illana's people in the statue.

Also, I bet Richard kept the knife that MIB gave him to kill Jacob and eventually told Dogan that the way to kill MIB was the same that MIB told him to kill Jacob, not knowing if it would actually work or not.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

People come up with weird stuff.

It was clearly the Black Rock that they saw in the distance.

Clearly.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> People come up with weird stuff.
> 
> It was clearly the Black Rock that they saw in the distance.
> 
> Clearly.


Got a screencap of that scene to settle the question?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Here's the Black Rock from the Jacob/MIB beach scene from last season:


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

There goes our theory that both Jacob and MiB need a replacement...

With a beard, Nestor looks a little like Adrian Paul, another actor who played a character that could live forever.

Hurly is stepping up in importance, and in wisdom.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

GDG76 said:


> Odd that Jacob would fight against Richard, but was willing to let Ben kill him.


I think he's up to something now, that he wasn't back then.

I'm intellectually disappointed that Richard is so young, and that the explanation for how the Black Rock ended up so far inland was so silly. But it was such an emotionally powerful episode, I can live with it.

I have a hunch we've heard all we're going to hear about the basic underpinnings of the island and the conflict between MiB and Jacob. I think the rest of the story is the damage that has been done to reality (I still think by the bomb), how they're going to fix it, and what Jacob is up to.


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## Mike Wells (Mar 9, 2000)

Wow. Just... Wow. What a great episode. I sure am going to miss this show.



GDG76 said:


> Odd that Jacob would fight against Richard, but was willing to let Ben kill him.


It's almost as if it was part of the plan...


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

An hour and 6 minutes of television (minus commercials) went by way too fast. An excellent storyline and great acting by Nestor Carbonell.

Loved this exchange:
Jacob: "What did he(MIB) tell you?"
Richard:"He said you are the Devil."
Jacob: Pause...Eyes shift..."And?"

Definitely a different Jacob than the one we've been shown before. It looks like back in 1867, Jacob was caught off guard by MIB's treachery. He's much calmer in more recent years.

So, can we now safely assume:
- MIB is some type of "malevolence, evil, darkness?"
- Jacob is the "guy" (or whatever) tasked with keeping him on the Island?

So, if MIB is the "darkness," and the Island is the cork on the bottle, then what is the bottle? Shouldn't the Island be the *bottle*, and Jacob be the cork?

And it appears that for some reason Jacob needs to prove MIB wrong about all people being corruptible. He continues to bring people to the Island in hopes that these people will know right from wrong without having to be told what is right and what is wrong. So what happens when somebody finally does?

So it appears that either one of the candidates will have to replace Jacob, or else they (the people on the Island) will have to kill MIB (if that is even possible).

In the opening scene with Jacob and Ilana, Ilana's face is bruised and covered in bandages. Yet in a later scene when she asks Jacob what to do after she's brought the 6 to the Temple, her face is uncovered and unmarked. Either the 2nd scene was quite a few days later, or Ilana has remarkable healing powers. Or the 2nd scene was a *flash-sideways*?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Wild random thought: I wonder if the split universe isn't part of Jacob's plan. He lets MiB kill him (by proxy), knowing that he will still exist in another universe; MiB drops his guard, thinking he's won, and alterno-Ricardo can defeat him once and for all.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I thought I was confused before, but this pales in comparison. That was a pretty incredible performance, but I can't wrap my arms around the story.

I can't really figure out which one, Jacob or MIB, is being honest here. MIB tries to get someone else to kill Jacob exactly the same way, with the same weapon, as we saw Dogen (Jacob's representative?) try to get Sayid to kill the MIB. So here we have 2 forces, one light, one dark, each trying to manipulate other people into killing the other. But what is the reason they can't directly kill each other? It's almost like two spoiled kids...brothers...fighting.

Did I hear correctly in the MIB asked Jacob to "just let him leave"? So that means it was Jacob holding MIB on the island. But why?

Numerous references to this being "hell". Richard tells Jack et. al. that they are all dead, and in hell (because that's what MIB told Richard). I'm recalling the Darlton had said a long time ago this won't be a heaven/hell story, or God/Devil. At least I think I read that they said that. So this was either a red herring tonight, or the two opposing forces using the "hell" thing to manipulate people on their respective side(s) - actually, more MIB, than Jacob. Jacob was vague at best about the "hell" concept.

And what of the bottle of wine...think of the wine as "hell", and the cork being what's holding "hell" in the bottle.

Lastly, how was Hurley suddenly so fluent in a foreign language? Have we heard him speak anything other than English before?

Speaking of Hurley, why did he tell Ricardus that his wife said he had to kill "the Man in Black" (who still doesn't have a proper name) or they would be in hell? If I recall, his wife never said that. So, Hurley was lying?

I'm SO confused.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I also think I need to go back and rewatch the "Dave" episode with Hurley.

Hurley ain't nuts, he's gifted


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## TheDewAddict (Aug 21, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> Lastly, how was Hurley suddenly so fluent in a foreign language? Have we heard him speak anything other than English before?


Hurley has spoken Spanish before. IIRC, his mother speaks Spanish, and his last name is "Reyes", a hispanic name.


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

I wonder where Jacob and MIB come into play in regards to the flash-sideways time line, seeing as how the island is underwater and all.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> Numerous references to this being "hell". Richard tells Jack et. al. that they are all dead, and in hell (because that's what MIB told Richard).


I think MIB just went with it when Richard asked him if he was in Hell. It's easier to talk somebody into killing the Devil than into killing some unknown stranger for no reason. One thing that bothered/bothers me is that Richard did *promise *MIB that he'd do "_anything I ask_" (in exchange for being freed from the chains). That might come back to bite Richard in the ass at some point.



TiVotion said:


> ..."the Man in Black" (who still doesn't have a proper name)...


I think "Man in Black" is a bit of an homage to Stephen King's "The Stand's" Randall Flagg ("The Dark Man," "The Walking Dude," "The Man in Black"). "Randall" just isn't as scary as "*The Man in Black*."


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## MusicMama (Mar 6, 2005)

After all, his real name is 'Reyes' and his (uncle? dad? I forget) is Cheech Marin. What more could anybody want? 

Haven't felt the compulsion to post in awhile, but this was quite an amazing episode. I almost can't wait until next week's captions to pick up what I missed, and I will definitely be rewatching before then.

I was not surprised to see Hurley speaking to Isabella, after all we know he "sees dead people" and has done since the first season. And Nestor Carbonell, awesome job, this has to be his Emmy shot. 

In the absolute top tier of Lost episodes ever.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

In the scene with hurley richard and Isabella, how do we really know that was Hurley? Just sayin.....

That was the best hour of TV I have ever seen, with Emerson in Dr linus right behind.....


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## jhowell (Sep 19, 2006)

So it appears that the Black Rock came to the island at least twice, once in calm weather and the final time during the storm. I wonder if Captain Hanso made the trip multiple times, bring people (slaves? candidates?) to the island for Jacob.

Edit: Another thought. It seems that in Lost they go out of their way to show people speaking with proper languages and accents, using subtitles when needed. But even in the past Jacob and MIB both were speaking modern English with American accents. Is this meaningless or a clue?


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

Wikipedia says "Ab Aeterno" means "Literally, "from the everlasting" or "from eternity". Thus, "from time immemorial", "since the beginning of time" or "from an infinitely remote time in the past". In theology, often indicates something, such as the universe, that was created outside of time." 

But I like the definition I saw on another site: "Perfect Abs Forever"


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## eMarkM (Apr 28, 2003)

Amazing episode that brings a lot of things into focus and finally gave some definitive answers. We're setting up to see if MiB can get off the island to spread his evil to the world before a candidate comes forth to replace Jacob to keep him contained.

It was the Black Rock that was offshore during the day and then a Jacob-induced storm hit at night and brought the ship inland. We're in the final hours here folks, there weren't two ships that need to be explained or multiple trips by the Black Rock. I mean, c'mon.

This episode _clearly_ defines who's on whose side. Jacob is white and MiB is, well, the Man in Black. There can be no more ambiguity about who's telling the truth. There isn't going to be some twist about this. Jacob is the keeper of the "malevolence" and now that he's dead, one of the candidates has to replace him to keep MiB in his place. This is going to drive the plot to the finale.

MiB is being truthful when he says all he wants is to get off the island. Now we know it's so he can wreak some sort of havoc on the rest of the world if he can free himself and "uncork" the island.

That part of the story is very clear now. What remains is what the heck is this flash-sideways world about and what did the bomb actually trigger. I have a feeling we're somehow going to get Desmond to answer this question in the end.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

That was 1 great hour of TV. That will easily go down in my top 5 episodes in the series of lost. I was glued the entire hour. Richards back story was so compelling and the end was so well done with Hurley,Richard and Isabella. The nice reveal why the MiB wants off the island and why Jacob stops him. Fantastic!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

That was great, I missed the first few mins, watched it to the end (I'm in a hotel), then downloaded the show and watched the entire thing again from start to finish!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

TiVotion said:


> I can't really figure out which one, Jacob or MIB, is being honest here. MIB tries to get someone else to kill Jacob exactly the same way, with the same weapon, as we saw Dogen (Jacob's representative?) try to get Sayid to kill the MIB. So here we have 2 forces, one light, one dark, each trying to manipulate other people into killing the other. But what is the reason they can't directly kill each other? It's almost like two spoiled kids...brothers...fighting.
> 
> Did I hear correctly in the MIB asked Jacob to "just let him leave"? So that means it was Jacob holding MIB on the island. But why?


I am still out on who is good and who is evil.

The final scene with MIB and Jacob talking - MIB was asking to just leave...and he sounded a lot like Sawyer. Oh, and Jack at the beginning and many others. That just want to get off the island.

Smokey showing up on the Black Rock gave me chills.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Definitely ranks up there with the best of the series. A great hour of TV.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

betts4 said:


> Smokey showing up on the Black Rock gave me chills.


And he gave Richard the same once over he gave Eko, and Ben too I think.

Richard and Ben got a pass, Eko did not. The only difference I can see is that Richard and Ben were both sorry for what they had done when smokey was "judging" them, but Eko [from Lostpedia] "encountered the Man in Black, as Yemi, who asked Eko to confess his past sins. Eko proclaimed that he was not sorry for anything he had done, nor did he seek forgiveness from Yemi."


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

I don't understand the argument about whether or not it was the Black Rock from last years finale--what does it matter either way. Either it was and "Jacob" magically created a giant ass tsunami later that day, or it was simply another ship that Jacob brough there, what's the difference? It's been made clear that he has repeatedly brought people to the island for many, many years. So what is the difference? 

Nestor Carbonell ruled in the flashbacks, man. He not only proved he could act, but he created a completely different and fully immerseive version of the same character, flawlessly. It was good. I was surprised that the episode focused solely on that time period, I thought I had read a while back that it would span a long time and fill in a ton of gaps for stuff we'd seen previously. Doesn't matter to me either way, I thought it was good. I like that we saw what brings down the statue, and that we (presumably) now have a clear idea of who's good and evil.

I also found it interesting that Jacob is all about free will--so maybe he's not influencing events as much as it seemed previously.


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## dagojr (Jan 9, 2004)

They made a pretty big point about MIB touching Richard first.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

jlb said:


> In the scene with hurley richard and Isabella, how do we really know that was Hurley? Just sayin.....


I don't believe that the smoke monster has ever taken the shape of someone who is alive (Jack's dad, Eko's brother, Locke, Richard's wife, etc).

Also, according to Ilana, he is now "Locked" into his current form (he can turn into smoke, but not take anyone else's form).


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

MiB was telling the truth when he said Isabella was on the island (HOW was she there? Like Locke's dad - the box? Was Smokey taking her form?).

Jacob claimed he knew nothing about her IIRC. Was MiB lying when he said Jacob had her, or was Jacob lying? I'm gonna assume MiB was lying, but I didn't think it was all that clear who the good and the bad one is, unless we take Jacob's word for it.

At this point though, I guess there is enough circumstantial evidence to conclude that MiB is the bad one...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I wonder if there will be any explanation for why the statue was there in the first place. And why it has 4 toes.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

getbak said:


> I don't believe that the smoke monster has ever taken the shape of someone who is alive (Jack's dad, Eko's brother, Locke, Richard's wife, etc).
> 
> Also, according to Ilana, he is now "Locked" into his current form (he can turn into smoke, but not take anyone else's form).


This is ture. Another clue that it was definitely Hurly is we saw him speaking Spanish to "someone" earlier on, witnessed by Jack. Hurly tells him it doesn't concern him.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

TiVotion said:


> Speaking of Hurley, why did he tell Ricardus that his wife said he had to kill "the Man in Black" (who still doesn't have a proper name) or they would be in hell? If I recall, his wife never said that. So, Hurley was lying?


Hurley had started talking to Isabella on the beach, and we came in on the end of the conversation. So, we have to assume that Hurley is telling the truth, and relating the part of the conversation we didn't hear.



jlb said:


> In the scene with hurley richard and Isabella, how do we really know that was Hurley? Just sayin.....


Who else can it be? MiB is 'locked' into Locke now, so it couldn't have been him. Plus, we saw Locke at the end of the episode, looking over at Richard and Hurley.



mrdazzo7 said:


> Nestor Carbonell ruled in the flashbacks, man. He not only proved he could act, but he created a completely different and fully immerseive version of the same character, flawlessly. It was good. I was surprised that the episode focused solely on that time period, I thought I had read a while back that it would span a long time and fill in a ton of gaps for stuff we'd seen previously. Doesn't matter to me either way, I thought it was good. I like that we saw what brings down the statue, and that we (presumably) now have a clear idea of who's good and evil.


Like you said, it doesn't matter either way. But, personally, I don't think it needed to fill in anything else. Richard got there in 1867, and got the gift of never dying. And Jacob was going to continue bringing people to the island. There isn't anything more to add. We know that everyone else that was on the island previously was dead. So, we know about the Others know - they were just other people that had been brought to the island by Jacob. (Yes, I'd like to know more about Widmore and other 'Others', but, at the very least, we have know a little bit more about their origin, too).

Excellent episode!


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

Maybe it's because I watched late tonight and not fully alert but I'm not as wowed as many here seem to be. There is only a handfull of episodes left and while there were some questions answered, with each episode I'm becoming more convinced that most questions won't be answered.

So now we now know that the Blackrock destroyed the statue but that leads to more questions. How does a wooden ship destroy a stone statue? What caused the waves that brought the ship so much inland? Richard mentioned that he was older than can you would believe or something like that in a previous episode. Please tell me his is older than 200 years. Why is he referred to as "Ricardus" by Alanna? There must be more to his story than this episode revealed. I figured he was originally from ancient Eygpt.

Consider this dialog between Jacob and Richard:

J: If I don't want to step in, maybe you can do it for me.
You can be my representative...

R: What do I get in return?
J: You tell me.
R: I want my wife back.
J:Can't do that.
R:Can you absolve me of my sins so that I don't go to Hell?
J:Can't do that either.
R:Then I never want to die, and I want to live forever.
J:Now that. I can do.

My interpretation of that is you can either die and go to Hell or live forever being my errand boy. Jacob not looking like such a good guy to me. OK, he sinned although the "murder" looked more like a accident against a jerk who wouldn't help his dieing wife. I'm confused as I guess we are supposed to be about who is good and evil here. 

The cork holding in the evil in the bottle made me think of the whole drilling into the energy pocket incident and also the hatch.. Hmm.

Why is it important that Richard speak English and have strong hands to be considered as the property of Magnus Hanso?

So it seems that Hurley really can talk to dead people.. I'll have to rewatch some episodes like a previous poster said.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

cmontyburns said:


> This episode may infuriate the "nothing is happening!" crowd, but (a) boy would they be wrong about this one; and (b) I wouldn't trade it for anything. What a magnificent hour of TV. And so incredibly played by Nestor Carbonell.
> 
> Just fantastic.


Agreed, I can't believe no one's complained yet.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think he's up to something now, that he wasn't back then.
> 
> I'm intellectually disappointed that Richard is so young, and that the explanation for how the Black Rock ended up so far inland was so silly. But it was such an emotionally powerful episode, I can live with it.


From the way they talked about Richard, they made it sound like he was hundreds, if not thousands of years old.
It is a little disappointing to find out that he's only 170 or so.



jlb said:


> In the scene with hurley richard and Isabella, how do we really know that was Hurley? Just sayin.....


Well, the fact that Jack caught Hurley talking to someone he couldn't see in Spanish kind of rules that out.



jhowell said:


> So it appears that the Black Rock came to the island at least twice, once in calm weather and the final time during the storm. I wonder if Captain Hanso made the trip multiple times, bring people (slaves? candidates?) to the island for Jacob.


Or the distortions around the Island played havoc with things.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Have we seen an explanation yet as to why MIB suddenly looks like Locke?

I assume some of it is for the practical reason of keeping Terry O'Quinn on the show as an actor. And it also helps to manipulate the other Losties, when they see someone who looks familiar to them. We're not really seeing Locke revived and possessed by MIB though, are we? It's merely MIB taking Locke's appearance.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jschuur said:


> Have we seen an explanation yet as to why MIB suddenly looks like Locke?
> 
> I assume some of it is for the practical reason of keeping Terry O'Quinn on the show as an actor. And it also helps to manipulate the other Losties, when they see someone who looks familiar to them. We're not really seeing Locke revived and possessed by MIB though, are we? It's merely MIB taking Locke's appearance.


Ilana stated that he was locked into Locke's form.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

eMarkM said:


> It was the Black Rock that was offshore during the day and then a Jacob-induced storm hit at night and brought the ship inland.


That reminded me of "Prospero's Books" and "The Tempest" -- that Prospero created a storm that caused ships to wreck on his island in order to manipulate the survivors.



hefe said:


> And he gave Richard the same once over he gave Eko, and Ben too I think.


Smokey did that to Ben? I don't recall that one. But he definitely stared down Locke in Season One.

Ultimately, though, Smokey needed Ben to act as his tool (yes, I said it -- Ben is a tool) in order to bring down Jacob.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Wild random thought: I wonder if the split universe isn't part of *Jacob's* plan. He lets MiB kill him (by proxy), knowing that he will still exist in another universe; MiB drops his guard, thinking he's won, and alterno-Ricardo can defeat him once and for all.


FYP.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

T-Wolves said:


> So, if MIB is the "darkness," and the Island is the cork on the bottle, then what is the bottle?


Dunno. The Earth? That particular timeline? I'm not fond of either of those guesses, but there you go...


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

TiVotion said:


> Speaking of Hurley, why did he tell Ricardus that his wife said he had to kill "the Man in Black" (who still doesn't have a proper name) or they would be in hell? If I recall, his wife never said that. So, Hurley was lying?


She said it, we just didn't hear that part from Hurley's perspective. On a related note, it wasn't a perfectly smooth transition when they condensed the part where Hurley relayed Isabella's words to Richard (oddly he translated them into English) by omitting her part--it took me a moment to convince myself that was actually what they were doing.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Oh, and this episode: awesome. It was a little strange watching a flashback straight through without it being sliced and shuffled between "present day" action. It gave it a sense of breathless acceleration since I was waiting for a break in the action, but it never came.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

And what was that boar doing in that man's crotch?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

MusicMama said:


> And Nestor Carbonell, awesome job, this has to be his Emmy shot.


Agreed. I had no idea he had that kind of acting in him to be honest. I was 100% enthralled the entire hour.



eMarkM said:


> It was the Black Rock that was offshore during the day and then a Jacob-induced storm hit at night and brought the ship inland. We're in the final hours here folks, there weren't two ships that need to be explained or multiple trips by the Black Rock.


This was my assumption as I watched it. Especially that Jacob insists he brought the black rock to the island multiple times.



getbak said:


> Consider this dialog between Jacob and Richard:
> 
> J: If I don't want to step in, maybe you can do it for me.
> You can be my representative...
> ...


My interpretation of that conversation was that Jacob did not have the ability to bring back his wife or give him absolution of sins, not that he chose not to do so. I don't believe Jacob is God, even though that does beg the question to me now, how he's able to make someone live forever if he cannot bring back someone from the dead.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Nestor Carbonell gave a great performance.

Was Ricardo originally from Spain? Was there white slavery in the 1860s or was this some form of indentured servitude?

If the Black Rock originated in Europe, what was it doing in the Pacific or has the island moved?

I must have missed the scene where the Black Rock crashed into the "El Diablo" statue.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Awesome episode. I have just two points to make (for now)...

1. Those who think it may have been another ship: Don't you think the words "Black Rock, Portsmouth" clearly shown on the back of the ship were a bit of a giveaway?

2. As the ship approached the island and the prisoners saw the statue, they said they could see an island. How did they KNOW it was an island? It was land for sure, but it was impossible to know if it was a large land mass or anything else.

This is the closest I've observed to a mistake in writing in six seasons!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

getreal said:


> FYP.


Oops, thanks...I just fixed the original. That's what I get for one last post before bedtime!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I think the only real inconsistency with regards to the Black Rock, which I bet they never explain, is how the First Mate's ledger got off the island.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> And what was that boar doing in that man's crotch?


Getting even with all the people who have ever eaten rocky mountain oysters?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Awesome episode. I have just two points to make (for now)...
> 
> 1. Those who think it may have been another ship: Don't you think the words "Black Rock, Portsmouth" clearly shown on the back of the ship were a bit of a giveaway?


Way cool. The Black Rock is from right here in Portsmouth, NH!


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I think the only real inconsistency with regards to the Black Rock, which I bet they never explain, is how the First Mate's ledger got off the island.


Maybe on the Dharma submarine as a souvenir?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

MickeS said:


> I wonder if there will be any explanation for why the statue was there in the first place. And why it has 4 toes.


Diabetes.


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## mikieminnow (Mar 16, 2004)

jking said:


> I just lost my freaking mind. That is all.


:up:


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

On a critical note, I think the writers missed an opportunity with Richard to explore deep time. Were he from BCE and a native Latin speaker, a link could be made to the possibly even earlier time Egyptian? statue. Making him 'only' 200 years old seems almost trite in a LOST universe. And I thought the big wave carrying the Black Rock inland and smashing the statue was hokey realtive to their excellent track record of creativity.

That said, I thought the acting and storylinew were superb as always. Gonna hate it when it's over.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Awesome epsisode, and it brings a lot into focus. How I see the island "game" being played out is that Jacob believes that there is somewhere a Good man who is incurruptable, so he keeps bringing people to the island to find that person (people?). This was kind of laid out in the last episode of last season. But everytime he does this, either the lust for power or the corruption of them by MIB leads to them all dying, either by their own hand or by Smokie. In Richard he found a man of faith, who he felt he could trust, so he made him his "angel" His guidence counselor if you will. Richard is supposed to guide the islanders that Jacob brings over and help him determine who this righteous person might be. Jacob meanwhile scours the earth looking for possibilities and then brings them to the island for various reasons. Richard advises them, and at the same time, helps keep MIB at bay. One question, has Jacob (alive Jacob) ever made direct contact with anyone ON the island? He's obviously done that with people OFF the island. If he hasn't it's one reason why Jacob never talked to Ben, or even Locke when they wanted to. In the end, I think (bold prediction) that Jack will wind up being the new Jacob, and Hurley will be the new Richard. Sawyer and Kate will leave the island alone.

I'm still not sure what the Flash sideways are all about, maybe it's just as I thought, it's a what if. What if they never met Jacob and everything never happened? I'm also thinking that a lot of what happened on the island are just man made events that "free will" created by the islanders was used to figure out ways to get them off the island. The one explanation I don't have yet, is how/why there is time travel. Is it meant to just show the current islanders the mistakes that past islanders have had and lead them on a better path?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> I think the only real inconsistency with regards to the Black Rock, which I bet they never explain, is how the First Mate's ledger got off the island.


Could be part of Jacob's plan. Or, maybe someone like Whidmore (or even Richard) took it off the island when they left.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

markz said:


> Getting even with all the people who have ever eaten rocky mountain oysters?


I always thought RMO were from a bull, not a hog.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> On a critical note, I think the writers missed an opportunity with Richard to explore deep time. Were he from BCE and a native Latin speaker, a link could be made to the possibly even earlier time Egyptian? statue. Making him 'only' 200 years old seems almost trite in a LOST universe. And I thought the big wave carrying the Black Rock inland and smashing the statue was hokey realtive to their excellent track record of creativity.
> 
> That said, I thought the acting and storylinew were superb as always. Gonna hate it when it's over.


Maybe that was never the writers intent? To have him be 3000 years old. Maybe we only assumed that because he was called Ricardus (which is or sounds latin) But perhaps there will be an episode that explains the islands origins, and how Jacob and MIB come to be on the island.


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> What a great hour of television. *Was I the only one who got a tear in my eye when Richard was talking to his wife at the end?*


Yes.....



That was indeed a great episode...so much wild stuff crammed into 1 hr and 6 minutes!


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

BTW...Real Men don't cry, except while watching Lost


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> On a critical note, I think the writers missed an opportunity with Richard to explore deep time. Were he from BCE and a native Latin speaker, a link could be made to the possibly even earlier time Egyptian? statue. Making him 'only' 200 years old seems almost trite in a LOST universe. And I thought the big wave carrying the Black Rock inland and smashing the statue was hokey realtive to their excellent track record of creativity.
> 
> That said, I thought the acting and storylinew were superb as always. Gonna hate it when it's over.


I, too, found it interesting that they decided to make Richard "only" about 200 years old.

Clearly, the writers have provided clues that the island has been around, keeping the "evil" entity, that we see as the Smoke Monster, the MIB, and Flocke, "bottled up" for thousands of years.

I think the statue is intended to telegraph to us that ancient Egyptians were once on the island, which means it was around, and probably keeping the "Evil" bottled up for at least that long. (That would have been ~3000 years ago.)

I assume that the "Jacob" we know is not the first "Jacob". Some hundreds (maybe thousands) of years ago, he was a "candidate" for the role of keeper of the island, just as Hurley, Jack, Kate, etc. are "candidates" now.

MIB may have had "replacements" over the centuries too. He currently resembles Locke, we've seen his previous human form, etc.

Finally, the title of the episode is a huge clue. It's meaning, "from time everlasting" implies that the island has been fulfilling its function "forever". Since the earth existed, or at least, since humanity existed.

Finally, those who are still confused over who is "good" and who is "evil": You're overthinking. It's now been telegraphed to us: Smokey is "evil incarnate". The island's purpose is to keep "evil incarnate" from enveloping the entire world.

If they fail to find a replacement for Jacob in the candidates. What happens? I think "Armageddon", in the biblical sense, is what happens.

Oh, and BTW. *Best. Episode. Of. Lost. To. Date.* :up: :up: :up:


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I always thought RMO were from a bull, not a hog.


According to wiki, you are correct. However, here in the midwest where there are lots of hog farms, people do eat hog testicles and usually refer to them as RMO.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I was listening to Geronimo Jack's Beard this morning. Jorge and Beth had Nestor Carbonel on. The main podcast portion was recorded right after Ab Aeterno was recorded.

In it, NC alludes to still not knowing if Mib is Satan/the devil/evil.....

It got me thinking and researching. Surely it as all probably coincidental, but Devil has been portrayed in White in the past.

I found info in Wikipedia about The White Devil. It's a revenge tragedy from 1612.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Devil



> The title of The White Devil refers to a popular contemporary proverb which held that "the white devil is worse than the black.". The play itself explores the differences between the reality of people and the way they depict themselves as good, "white", or pure.


I found that very interesting. I also found it interesting that one of the characters in the play was named Isabella....

I also found a very interesting narrative about Satan here:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Satan

Lots of biblical and literary references that tie into things we have seen on the show.....


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## jasrub (May 9, 2008)

Another thing I don't think they've answered yet is.. Remember in the first couple of season's, when something 'odd' was about to happen or did happen, and it rained? That hasn't happened recently nor has it been addressed.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

The Jesus parallels are becoming a bit more intense.

Jacob, as the Island Protecter knew he was going to die (after all, he was picking candidates). So he chose to die because that is the only way that he could become reborn (or a new Island Protecter could be reborn), and save the world from evil.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Someonje else mentioned this I think, but why did Iliana call Ricardo/Richard "Ricardus"?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> The Jesus parallels are becoming a bit more intense.
> 
> Jacob, as the Island Protecter knew he was going to die (after all, he was picking candidates). So he chose to die because that is the only way that he could become reborn (or a new Island Protecter could be reborn), and save the world from evil.


Man In Black: Your powers are weak, old man. 
Jacob: You can't win, Man In Black. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.


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## mikieminnow (Mar 16, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> And what was that boar doing in that man's crotch?


Eating his flesh. Evidently pigs like human flesh. Whether true or not, I have no idea, but this device has been used for human disposal in other TV, specifically 'Deadwood'.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm intellectually disappointed that Richard is so young, and that the explanation for how the Black Rock ended up so far inland was so silly. But it was such an emotionally powerful episode, I can live with it.


I feel the same. With the heiroglyphics in the temple, the statue, the use of latin by the Others, etc, the show has definitely telegraphed that this has been going on _ab aeterno_, so I was hoping that Richard's story would be the one to take us farther back than we've previously seen. Going back to the 1800's was good, but I was anticipating something more far-reaching.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I have a hunch we've heard all we're going to hear about the basic underpinnings of the island and the conflict between MiB and Jacob. I think the rest of the story is the damage that has been done to reality (I still think by the bomb), how they're going to fix it, and what Jacob is up to.


I certainly hope not. While we now know more about the conflict/contest between Jacob and MIB, we still don't know who or what they are or how the island came to be. I don't think that can be left unresolved and I hope it is not just left open to debate.



TheDewAddict said:


> Hurley has spoken Spanish before. IIRC, his mother speaks Spanish, and his last name is "Reyes", a hispanic name.


The comic was in Spanish, as well, wasn't it? Actually there were two - the one at the beginning with the polar bear, and then later we saw Hurley reading "Y The Last Man" in Spanish, right? I certainly had no issue with Hurley speaking Spanish. I always assumed he was fluent.



eMarkM said:


> It was the Black Rock that was offshore during the day and then a Jacob-induced storm hit at night and brought the ship inland. We're in the final hours here folks, there weren't two ships that need to be explained or multiple trips by the Black Rock. I mean, c'mon.


Yes, this is exactly how I interpreted it.

I'm with the majority in that I too thought this was an amazing episode. I was captivated from start to finish. I thought Nestor Carbonel gave an amazing performance. I really liked that we got to see him being courted by MIB and Jacob, with him first siding with one and then the other, and then potentially back again, which parallels what we've seen recently with Ben. And, stylistically, I loved that for many scenes in this episode Richard's face was shown as being half in shadows, half in light. I'm sure that was intentional.

It was interesting that the episode broke from form a bit. Just like Jacob and MIB seem to be playing by some set of rules, Damon and Carlton have set up some rules they generally follow for LOST. This is "supposed" to be flash-sideways season, by the rules they've set for themselves, but they threw a bit of a curveball by going back and giving us an old-school flashback episode, instead. The bit of storytelling with Jacob's visit to Ilana, at the beginning, also was a bit unusual for LOST as it occurred separate from the Island-present storyline and was not a part of Richard's flashback story, either. Rather, it was Ilana recounting to her new crew (Jack, Hurley, Ben, etc) her recollection of what had happened. It was like we got a mini Ilana flashback at the beginning of Richard's episode. Nothing wrong with that, just not usual for the show to do that.

I wasn't sure about Isabella's presence on the island (not as a ghost with Hurley, but during Richard's flashback). Was Richard seeing her ghost? Was Richard just hallucinating having seen her? Was she a manifestation of Smokey/MIB? I assume it was the latter, right?


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

danterner said:


> I wasn't sure about Isabella's presence on the island (not as a ghost with Hurley, but during Richard's flashback). Was Richard seeing her ghost? Was Richard just hallucinating having seen her? Was she a manifestation of Smokey/MIB? I assume it was the latter, right?


She was a manifestation of Smokey/MIB, as a means to manipulate Richard.

It's becoming clear that when "dead people" are seen on the island _*with the important exception of when Hurley sees them, he really CAN see dead people*_, it's Smokey trying to manipulate somebody.

Jack's dad being the most obvious example.

Smokey also might sometimes manifest people who are not dead, but simply not on the island. e. g. Walt.

(Sorry, I didn't type that name right: *WWWWAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLTT!!!*)



danterner said:


> The comic was in Spanish, as well, wasn't it? Actually there were two - the one at the beginning with the polar bear, and then later we saw Hurley reading "Y The Last Man" in Spanish, right? I certainly had no issue with Hurley speaking Spanish. I always assumed he was fluent.


You are correct, of course.

I find it amusing that anyone is actually confused about this.

The character's name is "Hugo Reyes", rather obviously Hispanic. The character is portrayed by a Latino actor, we've seen him reading Spanish, his mother is portrayed by a Latina actress, we've seen him speak Spanish to his mother, his father is portrayed by Cheech Marin.

It's been obvious that Hurley is fluent in Spanish since mid-way through season one.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

I don't think anybody's mentioned it yet but, I would not want that guy as my priest! "Please forgive me father for I have sinned." "No!"


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

KellyR66 said:


> Maybe it's because I watched late tonight and not fully alert but I'm not as wowed as many here seem to be. There is only a handfull of episodes left and while there were some questions answered, with each episode I'm becoming more convinced that most questions won't be answered.


I'll repeat what I said last thread. If by "most questions" you mean every minor detailed question that wasn't answered to someone's satisfaction, then there's no doubt you're right and you should prepare yourself for disappointment. There's basically no way to even do that unless they just had the characters stand around and explain things to each other, and hence to us, for the rest of the season in exposition-heavy episodes. That would suck, and we all know Darlton won't do that.

If what you're looking for is answers to the bigger mysteries and enough structure that we can guess, with at least a moderate amount of certainty, the answers to many of the smaller ones, then (I believe) you'll be satisfied.



KellyR66 said:


> So now we now know that the Blackrock destroyed the statue but that leads to more questions. How does a wooden ship destroy a stone statue? What caused the waves that brought the ship so much inland? Richard mentioned that he was older than can you would believe or something like that in a previous episode. Please tell me his is older than 200 years. Why is he referred to as "Ricardus" by Alanna? There must be more to his story than this episode revealed. I figured he was originally from ancient Eygpt.
> 
> Why is it important that Richard speak English and have strong hands to be considered as the property of Magnus Hanso?


Every single one of these questions I would put in the category of "minor detailed question". Basically, who cares?

Hanso wanted someone who would work (hence the hands) and spoke English (presumably because he prefers English-speakers in America). In any event, that's what he wanted and he had his reasons--just because they weren't explained to us doesn't matter: it's not relevant to the show.

Similarly with "Ricardus"; that's what they called him. What does it matter? Maybe Jacob (who is MUCH older than 200 years I think we can agree) calls him that as a nickname or to give him a bit more mystery to the people on the island.

As for 200 years (no more than 170 really: that would make Richard 30 when he arrived on the island--he was likely younger than that since he had no kids); sure, that doesn't seem like a long time to us, when we have an idea of how long Jacob and MiB have been there, but it's a long time for a person to live... especially for Richard; the average life expectancy in the 1860's must have been about 50 or so.

Maybe a hurricane caused the waves--they do do that. Maybe it was the combination of the enormous wave and the ship that broke the statue. The statue was very old and maybe it was already cracked or damaged. It was tall and probably not that strong against forces in some directions; why wouldn't a huge 50 foot wave with a ship hitting the very top have toppled it?

I will say this: I actually _didn't_ like the fact that the ship toppled the statue. It felt like the writers were just trying to shove an extra explanation to a mystery in, to make the viewers happy: "we'll kill two birds with one Black Rock!" (see what I did there? ) I'd prefer it if it wasn't explained (we would assume it just went down due to normal wear-and-tear), if there wasn't a good reason for it. But this is a tiny quibble: overall I loved this episode and I'm very satisfied with the rate at which the main plotlines are becoming clearer. We still do have lots of LOST left, don't forget.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

It was obvious to me that the wave crushed the statue, and the ship happened to be riding that wave.

Why did everyone expect Richard to be Egyptian anyway? Because of the "eyeliner"?  The actor is of Spanish descent, so I don't see why people would make that jump.

As shown in this episode, he's quite religious, so between attending mass and reading the bible, his knowledge of Latin is not surprising, either.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

getreal said:


> I thought I also caught the name Widfield as one of the commanding officers of the ship before they identified Hanso. Could Widmore be a descendant of Widfield? I think that is part of the reason why Widmore was buying up Black Rock stuff at auction way back in Season 1 or 2 or 3.


The closed captioning called him "Whitfield." I guess that's still close enough to have morphed into Widmore over the last 140 years.


nrrhgreg said:


> I think the don't let him speak to you thing isn't literally if he speaks you can't kill him. Instead it's, if he starts talking he's going to talk you out of doing this.


This.


Fool Me Twice said:


> Oh, and this episode: awesome. It was a little strange watching a flashback straight through without it being sliced and shuffled between "present day" action. It gave it a sense of breathless acceleration since I was waiting for a break in the action, but it never came.


I didn't even notice we hadn't been going back and forth until we went back to the Island at the end of the episode, and then I realized they'd just given us almost an entire episode of flashback. That was very well done.


Fish Man said:


> Finally, those who are still confused over who is "good" and who is "evil": You're overthinking. It's now been telegraphed to us: Smokey is "evil incarnate". The island's purpose is to keep "evil incarnate" from enveloping the entire world.


I thought it was pretty obvious that they tried to throw us a curveball, when MiB gave Richard the knife and wanted him to kill Jacob, we were supposed to think, "Hey, I guess Jacob's been the bad guy all along." But then Jacob explained what was really happening to Richard and now we know why MiB was lying to Richard.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> I don't think anybody's mentioned it yet but, I would not want that guy as my priest! "Please forgive me father for I have sinned." "No!"


Indeed! What an ******! The shock value of that response was well played, I thought.

Although, since it was the priest that conspired to sell Richard into slavery, he was clearly a corrupt, evil, jerkwad all the way around.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

hefe said:


> Richard and Ben got a pass, Eko did not. The only difference I can see is that Richard and Ben were both sorry for what they had done when smokey was "judging" them, but Eko [from Lostpedia] "encountered the Man in Black, as Yemi, who asked Eko to confess his past sins. Eko proclaimed that he was not sorry for anything he had done, nor did he seek forgiveness from Yemi."


Right - and this now ties in nicely with the rules Jacob and MIB are playing by. Jacob is looking for someone that knows right from wrong and will decide to to the right thing of their own free will. He brings people to the island, making repeated attempts to find that person. MIB, on the other hand, is looking to corrupt the people Jacob brings, in order to prove Jacob wrong. If MIB encounters someone that has killed yet is not penitent, then obviously they do not fit Jacob's requirement and MIB can kill them. If MIB encounters someone that has sinned yet is penitent, on the other hand, then he must let them pass because they are still in play - they may yet turn out to be a person that meets Jacob's requirements. Eko was unrepentant, and so MIB was able to take him out of play. The scene with Richard in prison was significant because we got to see him seeking absolution - not pro forma, but because he really wanted to atone. That's what wound up protecting him from smokey's gaze in the hold of the Black Rock, post crash.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> It was obvious to me that the wave crushed the statue, and the ship happened to be riding that wave.
> 
> Why did everyone expect Richard to be Egyptian anyway? Because of the "eyeliner"?  The actor is of Spanish descent, so I don't see why people would make that jump.
> 
> As shown in this episode, he's quite religious, so between attending mass and reading the bible, his knowledge of Latin is not surprising, either.


Indeed.

Ancient Egyptians did not speak Latin.

However, devout Catholics in the 19th century *DID!*

So, I think that the others speak Latin as a "secret language" among themselves may well have been explained. The origin of the Latin may well be Richard.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

nrrhgreg said:


> I think the don't let him speak to you thing isn't literally if he speaks you can't kill him. Instead it's, if he starts talking he's going to talk you out of doing this.


Except UnLocke didn't get injured when Sayid stabbed him in the jungle. Sayid didn't hesitate, and he wasn't talked out of trying, yet he wasn't successful. The knife just didn't "work" on UnLocke. UnLocke did speak first there.

Despite that, I prefer your take on it.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

betts4 said:


> I am still out on who is good and who is evil.
> 
> The final scene with MIB and Jacob talking - MIB was asking to just leave...and he sounded a lot like Sawyer. Oh, and Jack at the beginning and many others. That just want to get off the island.
> 
> Smokey showing up on the Black Rock gave me chills.


Sounded like Sawyer?

I thought he sounded / acted EXACTLY like Locke. His facial mannerisms (is that a term?) were totally like Terry O'Quinn.


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## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

For those complaining about how "young" Richard is, when we take into consideration the time dilation on the island, shouldn't we assume that while "only" 140 years has passed _off _the island that much, much more time has passed _on _it. So Richard might have been living on the island considerably longer than we're giving him credit for. So he'd actually be much older that just 170 years.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

danterner said:


> Except UnLocke didn't get injured when Sayid stabbed him in the jungle. Sayid didn't hesitate, and he wasn't talked out of trying, yet he wasn't successful. The knife just didn't "work" on UnLocke. UnLocke did speak first there.
> 
> Despite that, I prefer your take on it.


I don't think that had anything to do with UnLocke speaking first, and everything to do with the fact that Smokey simply can't be killed, at least not by traditional means.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> Sounded like Sawyer?
> 
> I thought he sounded / acted EXACTLY like Locke. His facial mannerisms (is that a term?) were totally like Terry O'Quinn.


Well, Locke too, in fact I think I noticed a scar on his eye. I have to go back and check, maybe it was just a wrinkle....but yes, Locke also.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> Sounded like Sawyer?
> 
> I thought he sounded / acted EXACTLY like Locke. His facial mannerisms (is that a term?) were totally like Terry O'Quinn.


Especially when he said, "It's good to see you out of those chains, Richard."


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Fish Man said:


> Finally, those who are still confused over who is "good" and who is "evil": You're overthinking. It's now been telegraphed to us: Smokey is "evil incarnate". The island's purpose is to keep "evil incarnate" from enveloping the entire world.
> 
> If they fail to find a replacement for Jacob in the candidates. What happens? I think "Armageddon", in the biblical sense, is what happens.





eMarkM said:


> This episode _clearly_ defines who's on whose side. Jacob is white and MiB is, well, the Man in Black. There can be no more ambiguity about who's telling the truth. There isn't going to be some twist about this. Jacob is the keeper of the "malevolence" and now that he's dead, one of the candidates has to replace him to keep MiB in his place. This is going to drive the plot to the finale.


I'm still on the fence about who is good and evil. As far as the writers tipping their hand and making it "obvious", consider the following tale:



> In 1986, Peter Davies was on holiday in Kenya after graduating from Northwestern University. On a hike through the bush, he came across a young bull elephant standing with one leg raised in the air. The elephant seemed distressed, so Peter approached it very carefully. He got down on one knee, inspected the elephants foot, and found a large piece of wood deeply embedded in it. As carefully and as gently as he could, Peter worked the wood out with his knife, after which the elephant gingerly put down its foot.
> 
> The elephant turned to face the man, and with a rather curious look on its face, stared at him for several tense moments. Peter stood frozen, thinking of nothing else but being trampled. Eventually the elephant trumpeted loudly, turned, and walked away.
> 
> ...


This tale is taken a certain direction, and ends differently than the reader (probably) expects.

I'm more akin with these folks:


betts4 said:


> I am still out on who is good and who is evil.
> 
> The final scene with MIB and Jacob talking - MIB was asking to just leave...and he sounded a lot like Sawyer. Oh, and Jack at the beginning and many others. That just want to get off the island.





KellyR66 said:


> Consider this dialog between Jacob and Richard:
> 
> J: If I don't want to step in, maybe you can do it for me.
> You can be my representative...
> ...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Jagman_sl said:


> For those complaining about how "young" Richard is, when we take into consideration the time dilation on the island, shouldn't we assume that while "only" 140 years has passed _off _the island that much, much more time has passed _on _it. So Richard might have been living on the island considerably longer than we're giving him credit for. So he'd actually be much older that just 170 years.


But that doesn't really help. People were expecting Richard to be several thousand years old to explain the apparent Ancient Egyptian influence on the Island. Whether Richard has been there for 140 years or 2,000 years, we've now seen that he came from Spain and had nothing to do with the Egyptian influence (the statue, the hieroglyphics, etc.).


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

A wooden ship from the 1800s destroys what appears to be 1000year++ old statue and ends up inland mostly intact? That entire part was stupid. The actor that played Richard did a wonderful job and the episode was very entertaining. I'm not sure I like where they are going with this storyline, and haven't since last year, but with 7 left, we will see where they end up


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I think both Jacob and MIB are in their way, a-holes. I don't see either one as a really white or black character. 

Bottom line, they both screw with people, using them to play their crazy game. A game of egos, not good vs. evil.


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## dagojr (Jan 9, 2004)

cwoody222 said:


> Sounded like Sawyer?
> 
> I thought he sounded / acted EXACTLY like Locke. His facial mannerisms (is that a term?) were totally like Terry O'Quinn.


even the tone in his voice sounded like locke.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Was Ricardo originally from Spain? Was there white slavery in the 1860s or was this some form of indentured servitude?


The subtitles indicated the Canary Islands, which were certainly a Spanish possession in 1867. I don't know about slavery in the context of the Canary Islands, but, completely coincidentally, in researching the name of a building at the camp I attended as a kid I found that it had been named in honor of the donor's father, who had been "shanghaied" from the Canary Islands as a child and forced to work on whaling vessels (eventually becoming a free man and an officer on other boats). (No, it's not the Alpert building  .)


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> A wooden ship from the 1800s destroys what appears to be 1000year++ old statue and ends up inland mostly intact? That entire part was stupid.


A 50(?)-ft wave would do that.


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## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

DancnDude said:


> I don't think anybody's mentioned it yet but, I would not want that guy as my priest! "Please forgive me father for I have sinned." "No!"


I was consumed with thoughts of how devastating such an edict would be for a religious man of that time. The worst was "There is no time to do penance. You're being hung tomorrow." Worst priest ever!


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

mikieminnow said:


> Eating his flesh. Evidently pigs like human flesh. Whether true or not, I have no idea, but this device has been used for human disposal in other TV, specifically 'Deadwood'.


From Snatch:


> Brick Top: You're always gonna have problems lifting a body in one piece. Apparently the best thing to do is cut up a corpse into six pieces and pile it all together.
> Sol: Would someone mind telling me, who are you?
> Brick Top: And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of them, because it's no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead. You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies' digestion. You could do this afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sievin' through pig ****, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence the expression, "as greedy as a pig".


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> A 50(?)-ft wave would do that.


Exactly, the Black Rock rode in on the gigantic wave, which, as it crashed through the vegetation and terrain of the island, was gradually sapped of energy (just like a wave of any size coming ashore is) and eventually set the Black Rock down fairly gently.

Meanwhile, as that wave crashed ashore (still having maximum energy, at the shore of the island) it destroyed the statue.

Flaws in the show's special effects notwithstanding.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

SocratesJohnson said:


> I wonder where Jacob and MIB come into play in regards to the flash-sideways time line, seeing as how the island is underwater and all.


Maybe the flash-sideways timeline is where MIB is trying to get. He isn't just trying to leave the island; he's trying to leave the universe.



hefe said:


> And he gave Richard the same once over he gave Eko, and Ben too I think.
> 
> Richard and Ben got a pass, Eko did not. The only difference I can see is that Richard and Ben were both sorry for what they had done when smokey was "judging" them, but Eko [from Lostpedia] "encountered the Man in Black, as Yemi, who asked Eko to confess his past sins. Eko proclaimed that he was not sorry for anything he had done, nor did he seek forgiveness from Yemi."


I wonder if it isn't that Smokey is following some arbitrary rules about who can or cannot be killed, but rather that he literally can't kill certain people in certain circumstances. Perhaps he only has power over the people whose corruption he can feed off of, and that might be why he couldn't kill Jacob. It would also explain why Jacob needs to find a specific replacement with a particular mindset or at least the potential to achieve a particular mindset.

One thing that is still unclear is whether replacements are part of the typical cycle, or this is something different. Although Jacob had been bringing people to the island for a while, he was surprised to find out that Smokey was trying to kill him. So that could mean that Jacob has a limited lifespan, however long it might be compared to everyone else, and he eventually needed to find a replacement anyway, but Smokey sped up the process. Or it could mean that he really was just bringing people to the island to prove a point, and his search for a replacement didn't start until after Richard's attack.

However, if the latter is true, then I wonder if this maybe really is the first time the role that Jacob served has needed a replacement.



JYoung said:


> Or the distortions around the Island played havoc with things.


That was my understanding of what was going on. Either the space-time distortions caused the storm itself or the difference between what the ship experienced and what Jacob and MIB saw was due to the difference in time between the outside world and the island. When Ajira Flight 316 went to the island, it too experienced a jump in time.


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## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> But that doesn't really help. People were expecting Richard to be several thousand years old to explain the apparent Ancient Egyptian influence on the Island. Whether Richard has been there for 140 years or 2,000 years, we've now seen that he came from Spain and had nothing to do with the Egyptian influence (the statue, the hieroglyphics, etc.).


That really has nothing to do with his age, though. Heck, he could be 2000 years old and still not have come from Egypt. Or he could be 20 years old and brought knowledge of 2000 years of Egyptian history to the island with him.

The best thing about this show, at least in my opinion, is that it never seems to do exactly what I expect it to. And when it does confound me it still manages to be internally consistent. Yes, Richard wasn't from Egypt like we all thought, but at no point have they explicitly said he was. Love this show!


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

pjenkins said:


> A wooden ship from the 1800s destroys what appears to be 1000year++ old statue and ends up inland mostly intact? That entire part was stupid.





DUDE_NJX said:


> A 50(?)-ft wave would do that.





Fish Man said:


> Exactly, the Black Rock rode in on the gigantic wave, which, as it crashed through the vegetation and terrain of the island, was gradually sapped of energy (just like a wave of any size coming ashore is) and eventually set the Black Rock down fairly gently.
> 
> Meanwhile, as that wave crashed ashore (still having maximum energy, at the shore of the island) it destroyed the statue.
> 
> Flaws in the show's special effects notwithstanding.


Not to mention that the Black Rock didn't just crash on the island accidentally - it was brought in by Jacob, just as Flight 815 was. This discussion of whether the Black Rock could crash mostly intact, taking out a stone statute on the way, is reminiscent of Season One discussions about "how could anyone survive that type type of plane crash." The candidates/survivors of 815 survived the plane's breakup the same way, and for the same reason, that Richard survived the Black Rock's crash-landing: because Jacob orchestrated it to happen that way.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

danterner said:


> Not to mention that the Black Rock didn't just crash on the island accidentally - it was brought in by Jacob, just as Flight 815 was. This discussion of whether the Black Rock could crash mostly intact, taking out a stone statute on the way, is reminiscent of Season One discussions about "how could anyone survive that type type of plane crash." The candidates/survivors of 815 survived the plane's breakup the same way, and for the same reason, that Richard survived the Black Rock's crash-landing: because Jacob orchestrated it to happen that way.


so Jacob orchestrated for his statue/home to get destroyed? don't buy that at all. again, i have a problem with the storyline they are going down, so that probably taints the view I have toward anything Jacob/Other Guy they don't want to name for some reason. Again the acting by Richard/Ricardo was very good


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## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

Jacob's reaction to Richard's coming to kill him was surprising to me at least. He was a much more aggressive, hold-someone-under-water, kind of Jacob whereas the one we know in 2004/7 to be cool as a cucumber. I can't help but wonder if Jacob was new on the job. If he had recently replaced someone else, it's safe to assume that he might not know all the "rules" just yet and thus he was surprised the MiB tried to kill him.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I can't imagine what the Black Rock was up to. By then the historical slave trade had pretty much died out, right? Where could they possibly have been going that would have required delivering a dozen or so slaves (European no less - had to speak english) and crates and crates of dynamite?


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## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> Way cool. The Black Rock is from right here in Portsmouth, NH!


Really? I assumed it was Portsmouth, England.

I liked the episode, but I think the scene with Richard being stuck in the ship could've been shorter.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

pjenkins said:


> so Jacob orchestrated for his statue/home to get destroyed? don't buy that at all.


Jacob is concerned with bringing candidates to the island. That's what he works toward. That's what we've seen him focus on. Yes, he lives in the foot of the statue, but that home was not destroyed by the Black Rock's crash and we've seen nothing to suggest that the statue itself was particularly meaningful to him. Maybe he prioritized, and decided that getting Richard inland safely was worth the destruction of the statue. Or, maybe he wanted the statue to be destroyed as part of his plan for whatever reason, and used the Black Rock to further that goal.

Granted, I'm not sure I buy that. But I do think that Jacob intentionally brought the Black Rock in (he said as much, in the S5 finale, didn't he?), and I do think that it landed intact and inland because that's how he wanted it.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

if he can bring the Black Rock in, without killing the people he wants not to kill, I'd imagine he'd be able to control it wrecking his house. look, it's a nit issue, i know, not really important to the overall story, but it struck me as stupid. of course, my view of the current story line is that it's pretty stupid, so again, i'm probably biased, we will see how it all plays out over the coming weeks...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> But that doesn't really help. People were expecting Richard to be several thousand years old to explain the apparent Ancient Egyptian influence on the Island. Whether Richard has been there for 140 years or 2,000 years, we've now seen that he came from Spain and had nothing to do with the Egyptian influence (the statue, the hieroglyphics, etc.).


I never understood why people were expecting Richard to have anything to do with the statue. Certainly nothing on the show has indicated this.

I WAS however expecting Richard to be older than 140+ years, only because the "wow" factor would be bigger. But storywise, there hasn't been any indication of this either.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Scubee said:


> Jacob's reaction to Richard's coming to kill him was surprising to me at least. He was a much more aggressive, hold-someone-under-water, kind of Jacob whereas the one we know in 2004/7 to be cool as a cucumber. I can't help but wonder if Jacob was new on the job. If he had recently replaced someone else, it's safe to assume that he might not know all the "rules" just yet and thus he was surprised the MiB tried to kill him.


I picked up on this as well. Jacob was blindsided by this tactic on the part of MIB. It appeared to be the first time he'd experienced treachery like this.

It was a wake up call for Jacob.

It's also a further tidbit of evidence of who the "evil" one is. MIB/Smokey/UnLocke is clearly far more treacherous and manipulative than Jacob. Jacob is more direct, even if he is occasionally violent.


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

I read through all the posts since my comments last night..

I think others are right that waves destroyed the statue and the Blackrock did not hit it. I'm still hoping for a better explanation of how the Blackrock could still be intact with survivors after riding a wave that high. Jacob and MIB or something else must have the ability to protect people. I have a similar question about how anyone could survive a plane breaking up 1000 feet in the air from season 1 ep 1. I'll be really disappointed if this is not answered.

Here is my theory of what happened in this episode:
Jacob somehow communicated with Captain Hanso to bring the Blackrock to the Island. Captain Hanso did not plan on sailing to America but instead go to the Island. Perhaps Capt Hanso was given specific directions to bring English speaking people sentenced to death.

MIB caused the storm and waves that brought the Blackrock to the middle of the Island. He knew he could not stop them from arriving on the island but by creating the wave he could bring the the Blackrock directly to him so that he could have the first chance of influencing them. The reason I think this is that Jacob seemed very cranky when he saw Ricardo for the first time on the beach and didn't know who he was. I think Jacob was upset that he was now going to have to file an insurance claim on his home (the statue). It hasn't been explained why but Smokey seems to stick to the Jungle and tunnels. I don't recall him ever attacking anyone on the beach. Maybe Jacob thought they would dingy ashore and he'd get to them first but the storm stopped that plan.

I guess I was disappointed because I was hoping the Richard episode would answer questions about the origin of the Island. I agree with others that the clues we've been given about Richard lead us to thinking he was older than 170 years and had more of a clue of what was happening on the Island.

The is the first episode that didn't follow the normal pattern of going back and forth between the island and a flash. Almost the entire episode was apparently a flashback. Hmmm maybe it's a flash sideways but since I don't understand a flash sideways is, I don't recognize it as one?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> if he can bring the Black Rock in, without killing the people he wants not to kill, I'd imagine he'd be able to control it wrecking his house. look, it's a nit issue, i know, not really important to the overall story, but it struck me as stupid.


Yeah, with you on that. I guess they were trying to economize ("kill two birds with one Black Rock"), but given how far inland the ship is, and how surrounded by undisturbed forest, having it a consequence of the island moving would have been far, far more satisfying.


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## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> Indeed! What an ******! The shock value of that response was well played, I thought.
> 
> Although, since it was the priest that conspired to sell Richard into slavery, he was clearly a corrupt, evil, jerkwad all the way around.


Although you could argue the padre saved his life. Yes, a likely (slavery) poor life and even now, an unusual life where he wants to die anyway but had he not been sold, he would have been a goner that day with the hanging.

KD


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I started thinking recently about the significance from earlier seasons about which eye they showed a particular character opening at the start of an episode, but this episode really brought it back to the forefront. Does anyone remember and, if so, did it turn out to be a precursor for which side those characters seem to be lining up on now? IIRC, they showed right eye openings for both Richard and Illana in last nights episode. I'm 100&#37; certain on Illana, but only 90% or so on Richard. I'm also pretty sure that they showed Jack's right eye in the pilot episode, but again, it's not something I paid much attention to when originally watching. So, is anyone able to elaborate? 

Also, count me as one of the few who doesn't care that Richard is "only" 170 years old. Like someone else said earlier, I don't think they've ever given any indication that Richard was as old as the island and, when he told Jack that he wouldn't believe how old he was, it was at the same time that he made pretty clear that he arrived on the Black Rock, so I never really read much more into the statement than "hey, I've got a good sixty or so years on the oldest living person you've ever heard of and I'm still only thirty or so years old." I would be disappointed, however, if MIB and Jacob had only been waging their battle for 200 years, but that's clearly not the case.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

kdelande said:


> Although you could argue the padre saved his life. Yes, a likely (slavery) poor life and even now, an unusual life where he wants to die anyway but had he not been sold, he would have been a goner that day with the hanging.
> 
> KD


True. You could also argue, though, that no way was he going to be a goner that day because Jacob/The Island had other plans for him. The rope would have broken, a fire would have started, or _something_ would have happened to keep him alive and eventually result in his arrival at the Island.

I guess, in writing that and thinking along these lines, I've been assuming Richard to be one of Jacob's candidates - a candidate from a prior generation of attempts by Jacob. But we don't necessarily know that to be the case, do we?


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## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

I'd say the chances of someone surviving a ship crashing into the jungle off a 50 foot wave are equal to the chances of large numbers of people surviving when seperate sections of a shattered plane crash into a deserted island w/o control at high speed.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

KellyR66 said:


> I think others are right that waves destroyed the statue and the Blackrock did not hit it. I'm still hoping for a better explanation of how the Blackrock could still be intact with survivors after riding a wave that high. Jacob and MIB or something else must have the ability to protect people. I have a similar question about how anyone could survive a plane breaking up 1000 feet in the air from season 1 ep 1. I'll be really disappointed if this is not answered.


I guarantee that it will not be answered anymore than it has.


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I guarantee that it will not be answered anymore than it has.


Agreed. I'm not sure how much more of an answer we need. It's been acknowledged by the characters that they should not have survived the plane crash, and it's been revealed that Jacob "brought" them to the island. Case closed.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

A few thoughts:

* People looking for more detailed answers, or unhappy with certain events (eg, ship/wave breaking the statue) are probably going to be dissatisfied. We don't *need* to know those things, so in LOST fashion, we probably won't.

* Several people have commented on Richard being brought to the island, like the Oceanic survivors. I'm not sure of that. I think Jacob was just grabbing people for his "experiment" (?), and a nearby ship worked for him. I'm not sure he "knew" Richard, or was doing all that he did (the storm...) just to get him. I think Richard ended up on the island 'luck of the draw'.

* I'm not sure WHY Jacob is doing what he does. It appears his goal is to keep MIB bottled up on the island. It also appears MIB can't kill him directly. So why is Jacob bringing these people to the island? While he says he is "looking for an honest man" (my words, not his), at the same time he is providing cannon fodder for MIB to throw at him--potential assassins, as it were. Why doesn't Jacob just sit quietly on the beach forever, bored to death but safely imprisoning MIB?

Absolutely loved last night. This episode ranks with the top two or three ever.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Didn't Hurley see Christian? 

Smoke appeared as Isabella in a physical manner, then she appeared as a ghost to Hurley.

Maybe the time Hurley saw Christian was the real ghost and the other times he's to other people it's been the MiB.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

danterner said:


> True. You could also argue, though, that no way was he going to be a goner that day because Jacob/The Island had other plans for him. The rope would have broken, a fire would have started, or _something_ would have happened to keep him alive and eventually result in his arrival at the Island.
> 
> I guess, in writing that and thinking along these lines, I've been assuming Richard to be one of Jacob's candidates - a candidate from a prior generation of attempts by Jacob. But we don't necessarily know that to be the case, do we?


While Jacob brought the Black Rock to the island, I (surprisingly) didn't get the feeling that he specifically was trying to bring Richard to the island. I think we found out last night that Richard is definitely NOT a candidate.

I did like the scene on the beach where Jacob was dunking Richard. That scene screamed "babtism."


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

astrohip said:


> * I'm not sure WHY Jacob is doing what he does. It appears his goal is to keep MIB bottled up on the island. It also appears MIB can't kill him directly. So why is Jacob bringing these people to the island? While he says he is "looking for an honest man" (my words, not his), at the same time he is providing cannon fodder for MIB to throw at him--potential assassins, as it were. Why doesn't Jacob just sit quietly on the beach forever, bored to death but safely imprisoning MIB?


For whatever reason, Jacob needs a successor.
Maybe he can only serve x amount of years.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

KellyR66 said:


> MIB caused the storm and waves that brought the Blackrock to the middle of the Island. He knew he could not stop them from arriving on the island but by creating the wave he could bring the the Blackrock directly to him so that he could have the first chance of influencing them.


This is interesting. Since Jacob had made it clear he was bring the BR to the island, why did he allow the storm to move it so far inland? And if Jacob is looking for people to play with, why would he let MIB kill all but one of the survivors?

Does seem to be a loose thread in this tightly woven story. Which almost always means we are not seeing the entire picture.


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

pjenkins said:


> A wooden ship from the 1800s destroys what appears to be 1000year++ old statue and ends up inland mostly intact? That entire part was stupid. The actor that played Richard did a wonderful job and the episode was very entertaining. I'm not sure I like where they are going with this storyline, and haven't since last year, but with 7 left, we will see where they end up


This is the same island where a plane broke in half in the air and the pieces landed in such a way as to leave survivors in both parts. Come on! This is LOST!!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

danterner said:


> Jacob is concerned with bringing candidates to the island. That's what he works toward. That's what we've seen him focus on. Yes, he lives in the foot of the statue, but that home was not destroyed by the Black Rock's crash and we've seen nothing to suggest that the statue itself was particularly meaningful to him. Maybe he prioritized, and decided that getting Richard inland safely was worth the destruction of the statue. Or, maybe he wanted the statue to be destroyed as part of his plan for whatever reason, and used the Black Rock to further that goal.
> 
> Granted, I'm not sure I buy that. But I do think that Jacob intentionally brought the Black Rock in (he said as much, in the S5 finale, didn't he?), and I do think that it landed intact and inland because that's how he wanted it.


If Jacob is concerned with bringing candidates to the Island (which I believe is correct), it did not appear that there were any candidates on the Black Rock. We also know that Jacob has a means of watching his candidates from afar. Richard is not, nor was he ever, a candidate. So are we to believe that Jacob summoned the Black Rock and essentially sacrificed everyone on board, just so he could entice Richard to be his gopher?


MickeS said:


> I never understood why people were expecting Richard to have anything to do with the statue. Certainly nothing on the show has indicated this.
> 
> I WAS however expecting Richard to be older than 140+ years, only because the "wow" factor would be bigger. But storywise, there hasn't been any indication of this either.


I think the reason people (not me) were expecting this was because there had been indications that the culture on the Island was thousands of years old (statue, temple, hieroglyphics, Latin, etc.) and there had also been indications that Richard was immortal and had been on the Island for a very, very long time. It was never something the show outright indicated, but it was a very logical assumption based on the puzzle pieces we were given.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

As others have commented, it now appears (I know, dangerous word to use when discussing this show) that we are seeing a showdown between Jacob and MIB, with the islanders/survivors being pawns in the game. Albeit, pawns with free will, integral to the outcome of the game.

So what's with all the time travel? Why did we need a season and a half of it? How does it tie in to this eternal struggle between good & evil? Or is it just another aspect to this story, giving it more depth, but clearly as an aside, not directly related to Jacob vs MIB?

_ETA: I'm not complaining, just asking._


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I guarantee that it will not be answered anymore than it has.


If the explanation is that Jacob has the power to teleport people off an airplane and put them safely on the ground then great, I can accept that explanation. I would just like a little more evidence that what happened. I'm just asking for more of explanation of who Jacob and MIB are and what powers they have, what rules they are playing by, etc.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> A wooden ship from the 1800s destroys what appears to be 1000year++ old statue and ends up inland mostly intact? That entire part was stupid.


A plane breaks up over the Pacific and most of the passengers survive the fall to an uninhabited island? Ludicrous!



Edit...yeah, I responded before reading all the similar responses...


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

philw1776 said:


> Way cool. The Black Rock is from right here in Portsmouth, NH!


Not sure if you're joking or not, but in Spain in 1867 and sailing to the "New World", I think it's FAR more likely that the Portsmouth referred to is the naval town on the south coast of England rather than the one in NH!!

I have a theory about the whole Lost situation but I'll keep it to myself for now.


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## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

I may have missed it from another thread, but is there an estimated date for when Jacob visited Ilana? Was it before 2004 or in 2007 after the O6 returned? If it's 2007, does the six that she is/was to protect include Aaron?


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

astrohip said:


> As others have commented, it now appears (I know, dangerous word to use when discussing this show) that we are seeing a showdown between Jacob and MIB, with the islanders/survivors being pawns in the game. Albeit, pawns with free will, integral to the outcome of the game.
> 
> So what's with all the time travel? Why did we need a season and a half of it? How does it tie in to this eternal struggle between good & evil? Or is it just another aspect to this story, giving it more depth, but clearly as an aside, not directly related to Jacob vs MIB?
> 
> _ETA: I'm not complaining, just asking._


100% :up: on that there will be a showdown and the survivors are pawns.

I'm still hoping that all the infection, magnetic island properties, Jacob, Smokey, others, temple, statue, manually keying in numbers on a PC, donkey wheel, whispering, ash circles, flash sideways, tunisia, & time travel all tie together nicely at the end of the last episode.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

hefe said:


> And he gave Richard the same once over he gave Eko, and Ben too I think.
> 
> Richard and Ben got a pass, Eko did not. The only difference I can see is that Richard and Ben were both sorry for what they had done when smokey was "judging" them, but Eko [from Lostpedia] "encountered the Man in Black, as Yemi, who asked Eko to confess his past sins. Eko proclaimed that he was not sorry for anything he had done, nor did he seek forgiveness from Yemi."





getreal said:


> Smokey did that to Ben? I don't recall that one. But he definitely stared down Locke in Season One.


Season 5, episode 12, "Dead is Dead."

DeadLocke takes Ben to be judged.



> Once underground, Locke and Ben light torches. Ben tells Locke that he believes that Locke's reasoning was right, and that he is seeking penance for Alex's death. Soon afterward, the ground underneath Ben gives way and he falls into another level of the Temple. Locke tells Ben that he will go get something to help Ben back up, and leaves, ignoring Ben's commands not to.
> 
> Ben is confronted by an apparition of his daughter.
> Ben then journeys on, looking at columns covered in hieroglyphs, pausing to observe a stone panel covered in Egyptian-style carvings, which depicts the Monster and a jackal-headed figure (possibly the Egyptian deity Anubis) facing each other. Below the carving is a stone grate angled upwards. Ben hears the trademark noises of the Monster, and witnesses it rise out of the grate in front of him. The Monster surrounds Ben, swirling about him. He is faced with memories of Alex and Widmore, including Alex's death at the hands of Martin Keamy. After showing these visions to Ben, the Monster abates, followed by the appearance moments later of an apparition in the form of Alex. Ben apologizes to Alex, admitting fault in everything, which she acknowledges. She then pins him up against a nearby column, informing Ben that she is aware of his plan to kill Locke again, and demanding his firm dedication to follow Locke's leadership, or she will "destroy" him. Ben promises, and Alex disappears. Locke calls Ben back to the hole and lowers a vine in order to pull Ben up. Ben reveals that the Monster has let him live.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I really liked this episode. I would like there to not be anymore flash sidewayses for a bit so we can focus on island history.


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## rdlaub (Apr 19, 2005)

So does anyone have any thoughts on how Eloise Hawking fits into any of this? She helped the Oceanic 6 get back to the island.


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## catcard (Mar 2, 2001)

This was a very good episode - we got to see a whole background story instead of being incorporated into the flashsideways or current story line.

My only question - how does the Dharma initiative impact the whole story? It seems now that Jacob and the MIB have been doing the manipulating of the people brought to the island. I think someone also mentioned that Jacob was the one who brought down Flight 815 - so it wasn't because of the what happened in the hatch?? What about the wheel that can move the island? Did Jacob create that? It just seems there are so many things in past seasons that don't seem to matter anymore.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Are we to believe that Jacob summoned the Black Rock and essentially sacrificed everyone on board, just so he could entice Richard to be his gopher?


Maybe Richard has some role that is yet to be fulfilled, then? I guess I just have a hard time accepting that the Black Rock happened upon the island by chance and that Jacob seized the opportunity to bring it in not knowing/caring about any of the people on it. I want to believe that there's more of a direct parallel between Oceanic 815 and the Black Rock, and that Richard was brought to the island for some purpose just as the survivors of 815 were. I am prepared to accept that that may not be the case.

Question: What interaction, if any, did Richard have with MIB in the period of time between his 1800's encounter and deal with Jacob (where, after siding with Jacob and then returning to MIB, MIB told Richard that if he ever changes his mind "the offer still stands") and his encounter with UnLocke on the beach ("good to see you out of those chains, Richard")? It seemed like the beach meeting was the first meeting between MIB and Richard since they parted back in the 1800's, that Richard was shocked to see MIB again, and that MIB was mightily pissed at Richard. Yet when they parted in the 1800's, it was on relatively good terms with an offer from MIB that Richard could come back at any time.


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

So the island is the Hellmouth. 

Was Desmond really pushing a button and saving the world then?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Not sure if you're joking or not, but in Spain in 1867 and sailing to the "New World", I think it's FAR more likely that the Portsmouth referred to is the naval town on the south coast of England rather than the one in NH!!


Ya think? I need to use smileys.


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## mike_k (Sep 20, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> If Jacob is concerned with bringing candidates to the Island (which I believe is correct), it did not appear that there were any candidates on the Black Rock. We also know that Jacob has a means of watching his candidates from afar. Richard is not, nor was he ever, a candidate. So are we to believe that Jacob summoned the Black Rock and essentially sacrificed everyone on board, just so he could entice Richard to be his gopher?


I don't think that Jacob summoned the Black Rock because of Richard -Richard was spared by MIB because MIB thought he could get Richard to kill Jacob. I think Jacob was surprised to see Richard at the beach - he didn't really seem to be expecting him. Then after they talked Jacob got the idea of having Richard work for him. So it seems like Jacob was just randomly fishing for candidates when he took the Black Rock.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

MickeS said:


> I never understood why people were expecting Richard to have anything to do with the statue. Certainly nothing on the show has indicated this.


cuz he was called ricardus.

we now know the 'inside joke' flocke was referring to, btw...


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

I can't help but think there was something important about Jacob saying that nobody could go into his statue cave unless they were invited. Maybe to take over Jacob's position as "chosen one", one of the candidates needs to go into the statue? We haven't seen any candidates enter there yet have we?


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## Supfreak26 (Dec 12, 2003)

KellyR66 said:


> I read through all the posts since my comments last night..
> 
> I think others are right that waves destroyed the statue and the Blackrock did not hit it. I'm still hoping for a better explanation of how the Blackrock could still be intact with survivors after riding a wave that high. Jacob and MIB or something else must have the ability to protect people. I have a similar question about how anyone could survive a plane breaking up 1000 feet in the air from season 1 ep 1. I'll be really disappointed if this is not answered.


Prepare to be dissapointed. I think there will be a lot of questions left unanswered or fully explained as well as a lot of half-assed explanations thrown in for good measure. (See the statue this ep.)

I think we are to assume that Jacob somehow has the power to bring these people to the island unharmed. That's really all we need to know.



catcard said:


> This was a very good episode - we got to see a whole background story instead of being incorporated into the flashsideways or current story line.
> 
> My only question - how does the Dharma initiative impact the whole story? It seems now that Jacob and the MIB have been doing the manipulating of the people brought to the island. I think someone also mentioned that Jacob was the one who brought down Flight 815 - so it wasn't because of the what happened in the hatch?? What about the wheel that can move the island? Did Jacob create that? It just seems there are so many things in past seasons that don't seem to matter anymore.


I think about that stuff all the time. What about this? What about that? They are doing a good job of answering some of the big questions and I'll reserve judgement until the very end but I do hope they explain the time-traveling business or that entire 1+ season was a waste.


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## Supfreak26 (Dec 12, 2003)

Forgot to add....

Best Lost ep in a LOOOONGGGGG time. I was shocked when it was over because it flew by so quickly. Loved it!


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

KellyR66 said:


> I think others are right that waves destroyed the statue and the Blackrock did not hit it. I'm still hoping for a better explanation of how the Blackrock could still be intact with survivors after riding a wave that high.


It looks like ship hit the statue to me. screen shot



KellyR66 said:


> MIB caused the storm and waves that brought the Blackrock to the middle of the Island. He knew he could not stop them from arriving on the island but by creating the wave he could bring the the Blackrock directly to him so that he could have the first chance of influencing them. The reason I think this is that Jacob seemed very cranky when he saw Ricardo for the first time on the beach and didn't know who he was. I think Jacob was upset that he was now going to have to file an insurance claim on his home (the statue). It hasn't been explained why but Smokey seems to stick to the Jungle and tunnels. I don't recall him ever attacking anyone on the beach. Maybe Jacob thought they would dingy ashore and he'd get to them first but the storm stopped that plan.


I like this.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

betts4 said:


> I can't imagine what the Black Rock was up to. By then the historical slave trade had pretty much died out, right? Where could they possibly have been going that would have required delivering a dozen or so slaves (European no less - had to speak english) and crates and crates of dynamite?


I don't think Richard was a slave as much as he was a prisoner serving his time rather than being hung. Yeah, it's splitting hairs, but he did have the choice to die or serve the ship (or did I miss something). Or perhaps Hanso works for Jacob / MIB and this was his way of "rescuing" Richard from death?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

verdugan said:


> Really? I assumed it was Portsmouth, England.
> 
> I liked the episode, but I think the scene with Richard being stuck in the ship could've been shorter.


I thought the same thing...maybe, since the episode ran a bit longer than usual, they extended the scene for filler. I kept thinking of the Tom Hanks movie where he was stranded on the island (for some reason the name escapes me).


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

> Originally posted by *Catcard*
> My only question - how does the Dharma initiative impact the whole story? It seems now that Jacob and the MIB have been doing the manipulating of the people brought to the island. I think someone also mentioned that Jacob was the one who brought down Flight 815 - so it wasn't because of the what happened in the hatch?? What about the wheel that can move the island? Did Jacob create that? It just seems there are so many things in past seasons that don't seem to matter anymore.


This is what I wonder about too. I think I would have been a lot happier if there had been no Jacob and MIB. I was rolling with the Dharma/Widmore stuff. There was a lot more places to go with that. The hatch and Desmond all seem forgotten. Sigh. Anyway, I don't think all the questions will be answered but it would be nice to have a show where maybe the top 100 questions are talked about....or even the top 25.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Dharma was simply a secretive past attempt to exploit the scientific secrets of the island. It provided a nice backdrop for the '1977' season story telling. A well crafted mystery has lots of seemingly significant at the time twists and turns that later turn out to be diversions from what lies beneath. An even better crafted tale has nuggets of info revealed in those seemingly dead ends.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Here's a problem I have with Jacob representing "Good."

So Jacob is Good, and his prophet, intermediary, go-between, whatever, is Richard, and his people are The Others, The Hostiles, whatever.

Jacob's people have been shown to be a bunch of murdering, kidnapping, a-holes. They gassed the Dharma people, they kidnapped the survivors, and did a lot of other bad stuff.

How can they be good?


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Here's a problem I have with Jacob representing "Good."
> 
> So Jacob is Good, and his prophet, intermediary, go-between, whatever, is Richard, and his people are The Others, The Hostiles, whatever.
> 
> ...


People do bad things in the name of their deity. It is not the deity's fault.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Look. Let's see the facts. We have a scene with Jacob and MiB sitting on a beach watching a ship, completely unidentified coming to shore during calm, sunny weather. We have another ship, that is blatently labeled as Black Rock, caught in a storm that later crashes it on the island. We then have Jacob tell Richard after the Black Rock crash that he has been bringing people to the island for a long time. There was no mention of his method to do this, certainly no mention that it had to be the Black Rock bringing people. 

The simplest explanation is that everyone assumed it was the Black Rock in the scene between Jacob and MiB and it wasn't. It was an inconsequential ship of some other origin coming to the island for the Jacob and MiB to do whatever it is they do. The Black Rock arrived at a different time and in much different weather. 

Also, just because the ship looked like the Black Rock does not mean it was.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

My big question is how scary is the "evil" if it can be trapped by sonic fences or stopped by some ash  ?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

astrohip said:


> As others have commented, it now appears (I know, dangerous word to use when discussing this show) that we are seeing a showdown between Jacob and MIB, with the islanders/survivors being pawns in the game. Albeit, pawns with free will, integral to the outcome of the game.
> 
> So what's with all the time travel? Why did we need a season and a half of it? How does it tie in to this eternal struggle between good & evil? Or is it just another aspect to this story, giving it more depth, but clearly as an aside, not directly related to Jacob vs MIB?
> 
> _ETA: I'm not complaining, just asking._


I also wonder a lot about why there was this NEED to come back to the island? Why Ben, Locke and Widmore were so adament they go back. What the connection is with Faraday and his mother.

Another way this could end is with both Jacob and MIB being bad, and the people on the island rebelling, proving free will wins out. I'm still not sure I like this whole thing being this giant game between these two sides because it seems to trivalize a lot of what happened. But I am understanding how some of the pieces might fit. The Time-Travel is still the biggest nut to crack.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> My big question is how scary is the "evil" if it can be trapped by sonic fences or stopped by some ash  ?


or a cork!


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I think it would be a cool swerve ending if Hurley ends up taking Jacob's place. I kind of got a feeling that it could be possible when Hurley put Jack in his place on the beach.

Hurley seems more special than Jack (his whole communicating with the dead and all). Perhaps Jack is just the decoy.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Here's a problem I have with Jacob representing "Good."
> 
> So Jacob is Good, and his prophet, intermediary, go-between, whatever, is Richard, and his people are The Others, The Hostiles, whatever.
> 
> ...


Have you read the Old Testament lately?


Shaunnick said:


> Look. Let's see the facts. We have a scene with Jacob and MiB sitting on a beach watching a ship, completely unidentified coming to shore during calm, sunny weather. We have another ship, that is blatently labeled as Black Rock, caught in a storm that later crashes it on the island. We then have Jacob tell Richard after the Black Rock crash that he has been bringing people to the island for a long time. There was no mention of his method to do this, certainly no mention that it had to be the Black Rock bringing people.
> 
> The simplest explanation is that everyone assumed it was the Black Rock in the scene between Jacob and MiB and it wasn't. It was an inconsequential ship of some other origin coming to the island for the Jacob and MiB to do whatever it is they do. The Black Rock arrived at a different time and in much different weather.
> 
> Also, just because the ship looked like the Black Rock does not mean it was.


Why does it matter? We know that Jacob has been bringing people to the Island for centuries. We know he brought the Black Rock to the Island. After that, does it really matter what ship we saw in the S5 finale?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Here's a problem I have with Jacob representing "Good."
> 
> So Jacob is Good, and his prophet, intermediary, go-between, whatever, is Richard, and his people are The Others, The Hostiles, whatever.
> 
> ...


My take on it is, once they get on the island, Jacob cannot interfere with their lives directly. He even says something to that effect to Richard when he asks him to be his intermediary. Some of the folks he brings to the island are either corrupted by the island, the MIB or just plain corrupt. Perhaps that's what the flash sideways are showing. Someone like Ben, devious on the island is not necessarily that way if he never got there. The circumstances play out, and he becomes the way he did.

On the other hand, when Richard takes young, dying Ben to the temple, he tells Kate (I think) that he'll never be the same if he lets him save him. I wonder if Ben becomes bad BECAUSE of Jacob.

Now my head hurts!!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Why does it matter? We know that Jacob has been bringing people to the Island for centuries. We know he brought the Black Rock to the Island. After that, does it really matter what ship we saw in the S5 finale?


I like to argue.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> if he can bring the Black Rock in, without killing the people he wants not to kill, I'd imagine he'd be able to control it wrecking his house.


Most everybody survived the initial crash landing of the Black Rock. But after Smokey was through with them, Ricardus was the sole survivor.



DancnDude said:


> I can't help but think there was something important about Jacob saying that nobody could go into his statue cave unless they were invited.


He needs some time to clean up ... vacuum, hide the porn ...


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> The Time-Travel is still the biggest nut to crack.


What's so hard about that one.
Fake Locke needed it so that he could plant the idea of Locke being the Future leader of the Others.
Then after assuming Locke's identity, he can order Richard to take him to Jacob.
It also fuels Ben's insecurities.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

JYoung said:


> What's so hard about that one.
> Fake Locke needed it so that he could plant the idea of Locke being the Future leader of the Others.
> Then after assuming Locke's identity, he can order Richard to take him to Jacob.
> It also fuels Ben's insecurities.


That's all pretty good in context to our main characters. But why does it exist in the first place? And how? Has it been used with other candidates?


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

JYoung said:


> What's so hard about that one.
> Fake Locke needed it so that he could plant the idea of Locke being the Future leader of the Others.
> Then after assuming Locke's identity, he can order Richard to take him to Jacob.
> It also fuels Ben's insecurities.


Except that Smokey had nothing to do with Locke becoming leader, or even suggesting it. It was a chicken/egg paradox thing, where Locke himself, after becoming the Other's leader went back in time and told Ben that he, Locke, was leader of the Others in the future, and that Ben had visited him (Locke) as a kid and gave him the compass. Or whatever. And that prompted Ben to visit Locke, and the cycle began.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Has the MIB or Jacob ever lied to anyone that we know of? I wonder if that's part of the conditions of their "struggle."


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I just remembered a big reveal, I don't think it's been mentioned yet. Sun is the Kwon candidate, not Jin. 

Mentioned as a possibility by many here, confirmed in this episode.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I don't think Richard was a slave as much as he was a prisoner serving his time rather than being hung.


Hanso purchased Ricardus (through Whitfield, his agent) as a laborer in the New World. Sounds like a "slave" to me.



Steveknj said:


> I kept thinking of the Tom Hanks movie where he was stranded on the island (for some reason the name escapes me).


Pick one of the following:
a) Robinson Crusoe
b) Castaway
c) Gilligan's Island
d) Lost in Space



GDG76 said:


> My big question is how scary is the "evil" if it can be trapped by sonic fences or stopped by some ash  ?





markz said:


> or a cork!


Stole my thunder, markz! 
It's almost like a Genie in a bottle, or Pandora's box. Or, for that matter, trying to put toothpaste back into the tube.



Steveknj said:


> On the other hand, when Richard takes young, dying Ben to the temple, he tells Kate (I think) that he'll never be the same if he lets him save him. I wonder if Ben becomes bad BECAUSE of Jacob.


Maybe Ben gets corrupted because he was "interfered with". You know how it is at Temples!


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

I've got a take on the Egyptian thing. We know that Jacob has been bringing people to the island for a very long time. Why couldn't some of those people have been Egyptian traders sailing waaay off course? Or even a military ship. If there were enough of them, or they survived for a long time and reproduced, they could have done a bit of redecorating, just like Dharma did.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Here's a problem I have with Jacob representing "Good."
> 
> So Jacob is Good, and his prophet, intermediary, go-between, whatever, is Richard, and his people are The Others, The Hostiles, whatever.
> 
> ...


That's a good question, and perhaps one that is posed for us to decide rather than have it decided for us...what is "good?" Depends on your perspective, doesn't it? I guess we like to have things neatly defined in "black and white" categories, but it's rarely that simple.



DevdogAZ said:


> Have you read the Old Testament lately?


Goooood point. 



astrohip said:


> I just remembered a big reveal, I don't think it's been mentioned yet. Sun is the Kwon candidate, not Jin.
> 
> Mentioned as a possibility by many here, confirmed in this episode.


How did I miss that? Really?


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Peter000 said:


> Has the MIB or Jacob ever lied to anyone that we know of? I wonder if that's part of the conditions of their "struggle."


Pretty sure that MiB lied to Richard about Jacob being the devil. And he's deceived people by "being" someone else (e.g. dead Alex and dead Locke).


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

hefe said:


> That's a good question, and perhaps one that is posed for us to decide rather than have it decided for us...what is "good?" Depends on your perspective, doesn't it? I guess we like to have things neatly defined in "black and white" categories, but it's rarely that simple.
> 
> Goooood point.
> 
> How did I miss that? Really?


They're gathered around the campfire talking about candidates and Sun says "I'm one".


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

hapdrastic said:


> They're gathered around the campfire talking about candidates and Sun says "I'm one".


But does she know that? Or is she assuming? Illana told her the name Kwon was listed, but didn't know if it meant her, Jin, or both. Sun doesn't have any other information. (that I'm aware of)


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Found this comment at Tv Squad: http://www.tvsquad.com/2010/03/24/lost-ab-aeterno-recap/#c26515735


> Re. Biblical connections:
> In Genesis, Jacob and Esau (think MIB) are twins who fight while in the womb. The mom asks God what is going on and God answers that the twins are destined to be leaders of opposing nations, and that the older will be under control of the younger. Esau is born first, with Jacob hanging onto his heel. The mom loves Jacob best. Remember, fake Locke (think Esau) tells Kate that his mom was crazy? Jacob and Esau's dad wants to give Esau a blessing before he dies, but the mom overhears, and tells Jacob to pretend he is Esau so that he can get the good blessing. He wears sheep's wool so that the dad thinks that Jacob is the hairy son Esau, and he wears Esau's clothes so that he smells like him to the blind dad. The trick works, and the dad blesses Jacob, saying that he will have many descendents and basically be the father of Israel. This is the biblical root of the conflict in the Middle East, where Jacob gets everything, but the blessing was intended for Esau. Esau finds out the trick and asks the dad for a blessing too, but the dad says that Esau is destined to wander the earth with no home and always be under the yoke of Jacob as long as Jacob lives. And MIB is always trying to kill Jacob so he can be free, remember? The mom tells Jacob to leave so that Esau doesn't kill him. Their lives turn out the way the dad said. Many years later they meet up and although Jacob expects a war, Esau embraces him and they weep. Possibly this will be how LOST ends, with a reconciliation.
> I read further ahead in Genesis to the Birth of Benjamin (think Ben from LOST). Benjamin's mom is a cousin of Jacob and Esau. Benjamin's mom dies in childbirth while travelling. So does Ben's mom, remember?


Can anyone verify it? Another commenter claimed that the stuff about the Middle East conflict was wrong.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Peter000 said:


> Except that Smokey had nothing to do with Locke becoming leader, or even suggesting it. It was a chicken/egg paradox thing, where Locke himself, after becoming the Other's leader went back in time and told Ben that he, Locke, was leader of the Others in the future, and that Ben had visited him (Locke) as a kid and gave him the compass. Or whatever. And that prompted Ben to visit Locke, and the cycle began.


Except for the fact that after Fake Locke and Ben hook back up with Richard and the Others, Fake Locke takes Ben and Richard into the jungle where the not dead yet real Locke appears due to the time jumps.

Fake Locke gives Richard the compass and tells him what to say to Real Locke as well as giving him the compass and tends to his wounds.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> Pretty sure that MiB lied to Richard about Jacob being the devil. And he's deceived people by "being" someone else (e.g. dead Alex and dead Locke).


In addition, every time he manipulates someone into helping him, he promises to give them whatever they want most (Claire: Aaron back, Sawyer: passage off the island, Jin: Reuniting him with Sun, etc.) It seems unlikely he'd be able to deliver on _all_ these promises. Looks to me like he "tells people what they want to hear", and sometimes/often, that's a lie.

I think we have yet to catch Jacob in a deliberate lie.

Ergo: I really think it's definite at this point, Smokey/MIB/Flocke is "evil". Jacob, if not purely "good" himself, is endeavoring to serve the side of "good".

I see Smokey as truly evil incarnate. (The Devil.) But Jacob is *not* "good incarnate" (God), he's more like an imperfect apostle. Jacob is something like St. Peter (e. g. Denied Christ 3 times, etc. but still attempted to always be on the side of good.) Or, if you like, he's like any number of the Old Testament prophets, doing his best to do "good", but occasionally screwing up.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Found this comment at Tv Squad: http://www.tvsquad.com/2010/03/24/lost-ab-aeterno-recap/#c26515735
> 
> Can anyone verify it? Another commenter claimed that the stuff about the Middle East conflict was wrong.


I think so.
Abraham had a son by his wife's maid Hagar, who was called Ishmael who some believe was an ancestor of Muhammad .


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

hapdrastic said:


> They're gathered around the campfire talking about candidates and Sun says "I'm one".


I think it was Ilana who was talking about "candidates", and she looked at Sun and said "you're one". It was NOT Sun herself who said anything.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

In last season's finale, MIB and Jacob had the conversation on the beach with a ship sailing by. Jacob was cooking fish, MIB told Jacob that he knew that Jacob had brought the ship there, and later asked him "do you know how bad I want to kill you?" to which Jacob said "yes," and then "well, if you figure out a loophole, I'll be waiting for you right here." Assuming the ship that was passing by was the Black Rock (and despite a few posts suggesting otherwise, I really think it was), then there's no way that Jacob should have been surprised the very next day when Richard tried to kill him, unless the loophole was that MIB couldn't kill him directly, but he could get someone else to do it of their own free will, and this was the first time that MIB had hit upon that idea.

Perhaps before that happened, Jacob had never seen any urgency to getting a replacement for himself, but once he knew that MIB had figured out the loophole, he figured he better not just randomly look for a replacement by drawing in random passers-by, but actively look for a good "candidate." He could have then built the lighthouse with the mirror and giant dial to "look" for candidates throughout time, and then travel to touch them at appropriate times to destine them to travel to the island.

(As far as the Black Rock daylight/night storm dichotomy, it seems entirely possible that the Black Rock sailed *past* the islands, and then soon after (that night probably) either Jacob or MIB caused the storm that drew it back to the island and caused it to crash there. I kind of like the idea of MIB causing it, in order to (a) knock down Jacob's statue in a pique of fit, and (b) deliver the Black Rock to a place where he could eliminate these potential candidates and recruit one of them to try to kill Jacob (i.e., he hit upon the idea to have someone else kill Jacob soon after their conversation on the beach) - when that ended up failing, he figured he better come up with a more elaborate scheme to get someone to off Jacob.)

A couple of other notes:

The dunking of Ricardo by Jacob reminded me of the dunking of Sayid in the healing pool in the temple.

It seems especially odd to me that Richard turns out only to be about 170, not because of any Egyptian hieroglyphics and whatnot or because of his comment about how the person that asked (Jack?) wouldn't believe him if he told him, but because that comment was made under circumstances where it's well-known to everyone on the island that Richard hasn't aged one iota since the 1970s and supernatural phenomena are all but the norm on the island. I don't think Jack would have blinked an eye if Richard told him he was 170 years old.


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

betts4 said:


> This is what I wonder about too. I think I would have been a lot happier if there had been no Jacob and MIB. I was rolling with the Dharma/Widmore stuff. There was a lot more places to go with that. The hatch and Desmond all seem forgotten. Sigh. Anyway, I don't think all the questions will be answered but it would be nice to have a show where maybe the top 100 questions are talked about....or even the top 25.


I know how you feel in that we're still getting introduced to knew mysteries but the old mysteries were never really wrapped up. I'm still hoping that it will all come together in the end. If not, how about a DVD box set with an audio track where they tell us exactly what was going on. For example in season one, there is an episode where Boone gets critically injured while checking out the drug plane. On the way to the plane, Locke can barely walk as if his paralysis is coming back. Why? Just one of about a billion questions..


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

astrohip said:


> I think it was Ilana who was talking about "candidates", and she looked at Sun and said "you're one". It was NOT Sun herself who said anything.


Sun said Ilana says that she is one of them, and so is Jack, and so is Hurley. We don't actually hear Ilana say it though.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

orangeboy said:


> Sun said Ilana says she is one of them, and so is Jack, and so is Hurley.


Ilana said she didn't know if it was Jin or Sun, though.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Maybe Jacob only recently started bring specific people(Oceanic 815) instead of random people(Black Rock) to the island. Maybe he only started doing so after taking on an assistant to watch over things while he was away.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

hefe said:


> Ilana said she didn't know if it was Jin or Sun, though.


I'm just replying to astroship - I'm rewatching now, and the line is early on in the episode. To really determine what Ilana said, we'd have to revisit a previous episode. Sun thinks she is one of the candidates.


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

Bananfish said:


> It seems especially odd to me that Richard turns out only to be about 170, not because of any Egyptian hieroglyphics and whatnot or because of his comment about how the person that asked (Jack?) wouldn't believe him if he told him, but because that comment was made under circumstances where it's well-known to everyone on the island that Richard hasn't aged one iota since the 1970s and supernatural phenomena are all but the norm on the island. I don't think Jack would have blinked an eye if Richard told him he was 170 years old.


Well said and my thoughts exactly. Too bad I couldn't phrase it as well as you.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

astrohip said:


> I just remembered a big reveal, I don't think it's been mentioned yet. Sun is the Kwon candidate, not Jin.
> 
> Mentioned as a possibility by many here, confirmed in this episode.


Was it REALLY confirmed though? She said that she was apparently a candidate but last I heard, Ilana told her she wasn't sure if it was her or Jin.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

When Locke appears and tells Richard that he will be leader in the future, why wouldn't Richard just go and ask Jacob if he has access to him?

Was Jacob or Smokey ever held captive in the cabin? Who did Locke and Hurley see there?

It doesn't seem like "evil incarnate" has been released on the world in the sideways line, so Smokey must either be still held captive or somehow killed.

At some point Jacob says there are good people in the world and MiB says there aren't. Not sure how they define "good" but the bible says "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Human nature is what it is--not inherently good. So I'd have to agree with MiB on this one. 

Richard and Ben basically react the same way--they have been told they're special and important, and they rebel when it looks like they aren't. Maybe Jacob is testing for humility. Hurley could pass that test.


Any idea who was Christian back in LA in Jack's hospital? Are we assuming the dead people Hurley saw were somehow "real" ghosts and that's his gift from Jacob? (Bet he wishes he'd had his choice like Richard did) What about Ben seeing his mother? Now that we've seen Richard's wife appear, it seems the same as that. Except Hurley wasn't there.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> (As far as the Black Rock daylight/night storm dichotomy, it seems entirely possible that the Black Rock sailed *past* the islands, and then soon after (that night probably) either Jacob or MIB caused the storm that drew it back to the island and caused it to crash there. I kind of like the idea of MIB causing it, in order to (a) knock down Jacob's statue in a pique of fit, and (b) deliver the Black Rock to a place where he could eliminate these potential candidates and recruit one of them to try to kill Jacob (i.e., he hit upon the idea to have someone else kill Jacob soon after their conversation on the beach) - when that ended up failing, he figured he better come up with a more elaborate scheme to get someone to off Jacob.)


Does almost no one remember the fact that there are distortions around the Island?

We saw this when Lapidus flew Desmond and Sayid back to the freighter.
They're in a storm and then BAM! clear weather and there's the Freighter.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> Maybe Jacob only recently started bring specific people(Oceanic 815) instead of random people(Black Rock) to the island. Maybe he only started doing so after taking on an assistant to watch over things while he was away.


I posited something similar in my post 3 before yours, though it's admittedly buried in a lot of stuff - I tend to be wordy 

My basic premise was that until MIB tried to kill Jacob by using Ricardo, a third person, Jacob never saw the need for any urgency in finding a replacement because the "rule" is that MIB can't kill him directly. Once Jacob knew MIB had figured out the "third person killer" loophole, there was a new urgency to identifying good "candidates" to be a replacement for him.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Does almost no one remember the fact that there are distortions around the Island?
> 
> We saw this when Lapidus flew Desmond and Sayid back to the freighter.
> They're in a storm and then BAM! clear weather and there's the Freighter.


Certainly, but then that begs the question "why are there distortions?" Are they caused somehow by Jacob or MIB or Widmore or some other phenomenon?

Also, I believe the Jacob/MIB conversation occurred in the morning - IIRC, MIB had just woken up and Jacob was cooking fish for breakfast. The storm that blew the Black Rock through the statue onto the middle of the island clearly occurred at night to my eyes. Did Desmond/Sayid's storm have a night storm to day transformation? Or was it simply a day storm to day transformation?


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

What is the nature of the bet between MiB and Jacob? Is MiB trying to prove he can corrupt anyone, or that he can find someone who can be completely corrupted? I just don't understand the nature of the bet.

The age of Jacob and MiB is getting to me as well. If these guys have been here a long, long time (ie, since the Egyptians were the dominant culture on the planet), and MiB can't kill Jacob directly, then using someone else as a pawn would have occurred to me pretty quickly. And if Jacob is just another in a long line of jailkeepers for MiB, then he would have experience in killing his jailer. And we know that Jacob doesn't keep MiB on the island, because Jacob's dead now. And if Jacob was around 1,000 years old, then the Others should have been around a long, long time as well.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Philosofy said:


> What is the nature of the bet between MiB and Jacob? Is MiB trying to prove he can corrupt anyone, or that he can find someone who can be completely corrupted? I just don't understand the nature of the bet.
> 
> The age of Jacob and MiB is getting to me as well. If these guys have been here a long, long time (ie, since the Egyptians were the dominant culture on the planet), and MiB can't kill Jacob directly, then using someone else as a pawn would have occurred to me pretty quickly. And if Jacob is just another in a long line of jailkeepers for MiB, then he would have experience in killing his jailer. And we know that Jacob doesn't keep MiB on the island, because Jacob's dead now. And if Jacob was around 1,000 years old, then the Others should have been around a long, long time as well.


welcome to all the holes in this ridiculous (to me right now) storyline.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> welcome to all the holes in this ridiculous (to me right now) storyline.


I hope you're wrong, because to go through all this spectacular setup for a story with holes in it would be a let down. Kind of like that movie from a couple years ago with Meg Ryan and Hugh Jackman, Kate and Leopold. IIRC, they had the movie done, when someone pointed out that the time travel romance ended up with an incestuous relationship. They tried to do something to work around it that ended up being pretty bad.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

A sailing ship is seen off-shore during the day but arrives in a storm at night. So what. A ship's doctor washes up on shore, and later in the day they talk to him on the radio. Did we all forget that little aspect of the Island?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Sometimes I wonder if I'm watching the same show as other people.

(1) They did not reveal whether the candidate is Sun or Jin. No one knows. Jacob didn't know, or he knew, he didn't tell Ilana. Ilana didn't know. Sun thinks she is, because she and/or Jin are. There's no way she could have known that it's her instead of Jin. She doesn't, and neither do we.

(2) The ship out at sea was clearly the Black Rock. It doesn't matter, really, but it was. The weather could have changed, it went from day to night when they got there, etc. But to say it's a different ship is just silly.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I'm beginning to think that the loophole was that someone who had repented could kill Jacob. Maybe that's why Smokey killed Eko -- he was of no use to him because he was not repentant.


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

philw1776 said:


> Way cool. The Black Rock is from right here in Portsmouth, NH!


Or it could be from Portsmouth, England.

EDIT: Smeeked. Oh well, these threads are more involved than the show when they get to be this long.


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## fliptheflop (Sep 20, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Sometimes I wonder if I'm watching the same show as other people.
> 
> (1) They did not reveal whether the candidate is Sun or Jin. No one knows. Jacob didn't know, or he knew, he didn't tell Ilana. Ilana didn't know. Sun thinks she is, because she and/or Jin are. There's no way she could have known that it's her instead of Jin. She doesn't, and neither do we.
> 
> (2) The ship out at sea was clearly the Black Rock. It doesn't matter, really, but it was. The weather could have changed, it went from day to night when they got there, etc. But to say it's a different ship is just silly.


+1


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Once again, I'm foiled by the endless thread. I attempted three times today to respond and got pulled away before finishing my post, only to find that many of the things I said hadn't been addressed.

This one has not: why was the cross that Richard buried twelve inches under the topsoil 150 years ago still twelve inches under the topsoil?

Greg


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Here's the latest blog post allegedly from a guy _who never watched LOST untill this last season _ Hilarious.

http://neverseenlost.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/episode-9-of-the-final-season-of-lost/#comment-1066

This clever satire is obviously written by a guy with intimate insight into LOST


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

The dunking of Richard made me think of Sayid at the temple.


----------



## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I'm surprised they started Richard's story at 1867. Aside from my disappointment that he's barely 200 years old, what I find even more odd is that in the Canary Islands, Richard refers to the "New World." In 1867, the New World was post-Civil War America, I doubt it was even called the New World.

that coupled with the style of the ships (Black Rock), which I don't think are from the 1867 time period in design (they definitely seem to come from a time period earlier than 1867, makes me wonder what the writes are doing. I think they are in error if they really mean 1867.

Maybe it's just me, but that date seems wrong. Thoughts?


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

philw1776 said:


> Here's the latest blog post allegedly from a guy _who never watched LOST untill this last season _ Hilarious.
> 
> http://neverseenlost.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/episode-9-of-the-final-season-of-lost/#comment-1066
> 
> This clever satire is obviously written by a guy with intimate insight into LOST


Oh mah gawd is that hilarious!


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Or, if you like, he's like any number of the Old Testament *prophets*, doing his best to do "good", but occasionally screwing up.


FYP. 



Bananfish said:


> ... it's well-known to everyone on the island that Richard hasn't aged one iota since the 1970s and supernatural phenomena are all but the norm on the island. I don't think Jack would have blinked an eye if Richard told him he was 170 years old.


Nobody seemed to have ever blinked when they were told that unLocke was Old Smokey.



JYoung said:


> Does almost no one remember the fact that there are distortions around the Island?
> 
> We saw this when Lapidus flew Desmond and Sayid back to the freighter.
> They're in a storm and then BAM! clear weather and there's the Freighter.


Right! Good catch!



gchance said:


> This one has not: why was the cross that Richard buried twelve inches under the topsoil 150 years ago still twelve inches under the topsoil?


YES! I had wanted to mention that one since I saw it. Kept forgetting. The stump of the tree should be MUCH wider a century and a half later. And there should be more vegetation, and the soil shouldn't be so loose.

Oh well ... they couldn't ruin Ricardus' manicure.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Another inconsistency that I've not seen anyone brought up. The Canary Island and Portsmouth are both in the Atlantic Ocean, while the Oceanic flight crashed into the Pacific. So does this mean the island was moved once before?


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

KellyR66 said:


> I know how you feel in that we're still getting introduced to knew mysteries but the old mysteries were never really wrapped up. I'm still hoping that it will all come together in the end. If not, how about a DVD box set with an audio track where they tell us exactly what was going on. For example in season one, there is an episode where Boone gets critically injured while checking out the drug plane. On the way to the plane, Locke can barely walk as if his paralysis is coming back. Why? Just one of about a billion questions..


I can answer that question for you. Locke was a candidate and had work to do. The Island did not want him to climb up into the beach craft and then die. Instead, the Island temporarily paralyzed him so that Boone became the sacrifice the Island demanded. It's another example of people that are useful to the Island not being allowed to die (eg Jack, Michael).


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Just a quick post from page 1 of the thread.. I finally got to watch the show tonight (after being on 4 flights in the past two days). Glad I made it back!!

Ok, time to read the entire thread and rewatch that excellent excellent episode.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

gchance said:


> Once again, I'm foiled by the endless thread. I attempted three times today to respond and got pulled away before finishing my post, only to find that many of the things I said hadn't been addressed.
> 
> This one has not: why was the cross that Richard buried twelve inches under the topsoil 150 years ago still twelve inches under the topsoil?
> 
> Greg


I noticed that too. I think everyone realizes it's just a convenience for the plot so there wasn't anything really to say about it.



dtle said:


> Another inconsistency that I've not seen anyone brought up. The Canary Island and Portsmouth are both in the Atlantic Ocean, while the Oceanic flight crashed into the Pacific. So does this mean the island was moved once before?


I had almost posted "I wonder where the island was when the Black Rock arrived" before...


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

dtle said:


> Another inconsistency that I've not seen anyone brought up. The Canary Island and Portsmouth are both in the Atlantic Ocean, while the Oceanic flight crashed into the Pacific. So does this mean the island was moved once before?


Boats crossed from the Atlantic into the Pacific all the time in the 1860's. They had to go around Cape Horn or through the Strait of Magellan to do it, sure, but it wasn't uncommon. It was kind of a big deal for whalers. Did they actually say where the Black Rock was headed in the episode?


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

Well, after reading (most of) this thread, it's obvious that I'm very much in the minority, but I didn't care much for this episode. And TB put his finger exactly on why:



Turtleboy said:


> The Jesus parallels are becoming a bit more intense.
> 
> Jacob, as the Island Protecter knew he was going to die (after all, he was picking candidates). So he chose to die because that is the only way that he could become reborn (or a new Island Protecter could be reborn), and save the world from evil.


I think this is a great show. But I'll be disappointed to have it turn out to be a statement of belief in the tenets of Christianity, just redressed in an island mystery. And after that episode I feel like that's the statement they are making. This whole episode felt kind of like TV bible study or something to me. I've been thinking of this as such a creative, innovative show -- but now I feel like maybe it's just been a convoluted way to try to make me learn more about Jesus. I feel sort of like I invested a lot of time in making what I thought was a great new friend, and then it turned out she was only being nice to me because she wanted to tell me about her church.

I know, you're dying to flame me now. Have at it if you like.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

It does seem to have that flavor right now, Ruth, but I really doubt that's what they're going for in the end ... keep watching and have faith that the show will take yet another turn!


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

To those complaining about Richard finding the cross right where he left it 140 years ago, what makes you so sure he doesn't go and dig that thing up every so often (maybe once a year on her birthday) to feel close to her?


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Interesting thought from EW:



> Wine = Spirits = Souls?


Taking that approach, you could argue that Jacob is the "bad" being for keeping the souls trapped on the Island.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Boats crossed from the Atlantic into the Pacific all the time in the 1860's. They had to go around Cape Horn or through the Strait of Magellan to do it, sure, but it wasn't uncommon. It was kind of a big deal for whalers. Did they actually say where the Black Rock was headed in the episode?


America. So, probably the Atlantic.

That would have been a good time for the island to bail out of the Atlantic, with all the traffic. There went the neighborhood, when those dang Americans started up with all their back and forth! 


Ruth said:


> I know, you're dying to flame me now. Have at it if you like.


If I thought the same thing, I'd be with you all the way. But I think the religious imagery in this episode was solely the result of Richard's religiosity. MiB used Christian themes to manipulate Richard, not to reveal literal truth to him. And what Jacob said really has no Christian flavor to it...I certainly don't remember the part in the Bible where Satan was locked up on an island with a bunch of time travelers and he was trying to escape by crashing ships and airplanes!


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

getreal said:


> FYP.


Thanks.

Now I've fixed it too.


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## KellyR66 (Sep 11, 2004)

brermike said:


> I can answer that question for you. Locke was a candidate and had work to do. The Island did not want him to climb up into the beach craft and then die. Instead, the Island temporarily paralyzed him so that Boone became the sacrifice the Island demanded. It's another example of people that are useful to the Island not being allowed to die (eg Jack, Michael).


That makes sense provided that we learn by the end of the series how "the island" is able to do these things and what it's motivation is. Maybe it was MIB or Jacob that was paralyzing him. Thanks for the answer.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

T-Wolves said:


> In the opening scene with Jacob and Ilana, Ilana's face is bruised and covered in bandages. Yet in a later scene when she asks Jacob what to do after she's brought the 6 to the Temple, her face is uncovered and unmarked. Either the 2nd scene was quite a few days later, or Ilana has remarkable healing powers. Or the 2nd scene was a *flash-sideways*?


I see no reason not to think that it wasn't _years_ later. Jacob touched people's lives often far in advance.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

they keep claiming Jacob is dead right? why is the other guy not able to leave?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

pjenkins said:


> they keep claiming Jacob is dead right? why is the other guy not able to leave?


And you have nailed what I have been wondering for the last couple of days. Jacob said the island was the cork, not himself. And MiB has referred to Jacob as the protector of the island. I think MiB is still stuck on the island because the island itself needs to be destroyed. The only thing keeping MiB from destroying the island was Jacob. Now that Jacob is gone, all MiB has left to do is destroy all candidates (or neutralize them) so that he can destroy the island and leave.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

During the never-ending scene on the ship with Ricardo trying to free himself: it bothered me that he would not use his legs, which were not chained to anything, to help him reach stuff (water, the nail, etc.)


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I think MiB can't leave until all the candidates are dead. Everything he is doing is to try to manipulate the remaining candidates into killing each other, since he can't do it himself.

It doesn't seem like anyone but Sayid is onboard with his plan though


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Ruth said:


> Well, after reading (most of) this thread, it's obvious that I'm very much in the minority, but I didn't care much for this episode. And TB put his finger exactly on why:
> 
> I think this is a great show. But I'll be disappointed to have it turn out to be a statement of belief in the tenets of Christianity, just redressed in an island mystery. And after that episode I feel like that's the statement they are making. This whole episode felt kind of like TV bible study or something to me. I've been thinking of this as such a creative, innovative show -- but now I feel like maybe it's just been a convoluted way to try to make me learn more about Jesus. I feel sort of like I invested a lot of time in making what I thought was a great new friend, and then it turned out she was only being nice to me because she wanted to tell me about her church.
> 
> I know, you're dying to flame me now. Have at it if you like.


Aren't Damon Lindelof and JJ Abrams Jewish? Although there might be some biblical parallels, I'd be very surprised if by the end the show seems like one long sermon on Christianity.



jlb said:


> Interesting thought from EW:
> 
> Taking that approach, you could argue that Jacob is the "bad" being for keeping the souls trapped on the Island.


Make sure to send this tidbit to jkeegan in a private message. He loves Jeff Jensen articles.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> During the never-ending scene on the ship with Ricardo trying to free himself: it bothered me that he would not use his legs, which were not chained to anything, to help him reach stuff (water, the nail, etc.)


THANK YOU!

...and I didn't necessarily enjoy the flashback as a full episode, but that was some seriously great acting.

and it answered another burning question...yes, richard has always worn eyeliner.

seems pretty clear now who is good/bad. Doubt they would complicate it further at this point.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Fish Man said:


> I see Smokey as truly evil incarnate. (The Devil.) But Jacob is *not* "good incarnate" (God), he's more like an imperfect apostle. Jacob is something like St. Peter (e. g. Denied Christ 3 times, etc. but still attempted to always be on the side of good.) Or, if you like, he's like any number of the Old Testament prophets, doing his best to do "good", but occasionally screwing up.


Interesting comparison of Jacob to St. Peter, there. Isn't it St. Peter that stands at the gates of Heaven, admitting worthy souls? cf. to Lost, where we have Jacob in what may be a similar gatekeeping role.

With all the talk in this last episode of the island being Hell (I don't think it is), it's also interesting to note that earlier in the series the writing on the Swan Station wall (the blacklight diagram) made several references to "Cerberus". Given the context at the time, many people theorized that "Cerberus" was referring to Smokey. Cerberus, in Greek mythology, was the three-headed dog that stood guard at the gates of Hades/the Underworld.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

DUDE_NJX said:


> During the never-ending scene on the ship with Ricardo trying to free himself: it bothered me that he would not use his legs, which were not chained to anything, to help him reach stuff (water, the nail, etc.)





MonsterJoe said:


> THANK YOU!
> 
> ...and I didn't necessarily enjoy the flashback as a full episode, but that was some seriously great acting.


I thought the same thing, but then I swear I saw a brief shot with his ankles chained. And when MiB came to unlock him, it was out of frame but he seemed to be doing his feet as well.

ETA: Link to pic of Ricardo's neighbor in leg chains which means he likely was, as well.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

His ankles were chained together with about 2 ft of chain. Not attached to the ship at all.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

3D said:


> Aren't Damon Lindelof and JJ Abrams Jewish? Although there might be some biblical parallels, I'd be very surprised if by the end the show seems like one long sermon on Christianity.


The way I see it is that they are building up a "good vs. evil" motif. As such, they're using familiar Judeao-Christian references and concepts to illustrate and represent the "good" and the "evil". These concepts are sufficiently ingrained in our society that it's hard to avoid them when broaching such a topic.

I don't see the show turning into any kind of "sermon" however (be it Jewish, Christian, or anything else), just a battle between good vs. evil forces. It's all entertainment.

Similar references are commonly cited when analyzing the Star Wars saga, for similar reasons. Yet no-one accuses those movies of being a "sermon".


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I'm confused. If Jacob kept MiB on the Island, when Jacob died, MiB could leave. So its not Jacob. But if its the Island keeping him there, then he could have left when the bomb went off (unless he was killed by the bomb.) But he's still there. And if sinking the Island (like in the flash sideways) could keep him there forever, why wasn't the Island sunk in the first place. And if he's free in the flash sideways, then why isn't the world suffering for it?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

We have seen no evidence that Jacob is at all based on Jesus. Sacrificing oneself is not unique to Jesus, and Jacob wouldn't be looking for a replacement if he was planning on coming back to life. And even if Jacob did come back to life, plenty of other characters not based on Jesus have done that too.

If Lost is ultimately supposed to be a secret lesson about Christianity, what are we supposed to learn from Jacob living under a statue of Taweret? Maybe Lost is actually trying to promote ancient Egyptian religion, and is using the secret Christian lesson to cover up the even more secret Egyptian religion lesson, and while everyone is focused on filtering out the secret Christian lesson, the even more secret Egyptian religion lesson can sneak in. That would be very Lost.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

For Richard, the island probably IS Hell - think about it: you've been granted eternal life, and you're stuck on an island. Lot's of baggage go along with eternal life, the biggest would probably be watching friends and loved ones die. I think Richard just snapped, and the island is not Hell.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

orangeboy said:


> For Richard, the island probably IS Hell - think about it: you've been granted eternal life, and you're stuck on an island. Lot's of baggage go along with eternal life, the biggest would probably be watching friends and loved ones die. I think Richard just snapped, and the island is not Hell.


He's travelled off the island a lot, though.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

orangeboy said:


> For Richard, the island probably IS Hell - think about it: you've been granted eternal life, and you're stuck on an island. Lot's of baggage go along with eternal life, the biggest would probably be watching friends and loved ones die. I think Richard just snapped, and the island is not Hell.


Right...all the religious verbage came from Richard (and from MiB when he was trying to manipulate Richard). If he were something other than Catholic, then we would have had something other than Catholic concepts used to try to describe what Richard was experiencing.

Again, it's not the show being Christian, it's Richard being Christian. And Richard's attempts to place his experience into a Christian context is not a good fit.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> I see no reason not to think that it wasn't _years_ later. Jacob touched people's lives often far in advance.


But the location was the same; the machines in the background were exactly the same as the first scene. And Jacob was wearing the same color jacket, and I think he still had his beard (not near my TV to check).

In the first scene, Jacob tells a bandaged and bruised Ilana that he is going to give her a list of 6 names of people she needs to protect. In the 2nd scene, Ilana's face is unbandaged and unmarked, and Ilana is asking Jacob what she should do with the 6 after she gets them to the temple.

I couldn't really think of any logical reason why the writers would decide to film that "conversation" in 2 separate scenes; one with Ilana bandaged and banged up, and the other with her fully recovered. Either it is a very sneaky clue, or they probably just filmed some other scenes/dialog between the 2 that never made it on the air, and there was a reason why Jacob came back after Ilana had healed.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

getreal said:


> YES! I had wanted to mention that one since I saw it. Kept forgetting. The stump of the tree should be MUCH wider a century and a half later. And there should be more vegetation, and the soil shouldn't be so loose.


I agree the tree should have been much bigger, but the rest could have been much the same. There appeared to be a bench there so what is to say people didn't use that area during the next 170 years and keep it cleaned. And it isn't as if the necklace was going to "migrate" anywhere through the dirt. People have found relatively undisturbed ruins much older with only the vegetation issue to contend with. Didn't bother me that much....


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

T-Wolves said:


> But the location was the same; the machines in the background were exactly the same as the first scene. And Jacob was wearing the same color jacket, and I think he still had his beard (not near my TV to check).
> 
> In the first scene, Jacob tells a bandaged and bruised Ilana that he is going to give her a list of 6 names of people she needs to protect. In the 2nd scene, Ilana's face is unbandaged and unmarked, and Ilana is asking Jacob what she should do with the 6 after she gets them to the temple.
> 
> I couldn't really think of any logical reason why the writers would decide to film that "conversation" in 2 separate scenes; one with Ilana bandaged and banged up, and the other with her fully recovered. Either it is a very sneaky clue, or they probably just filmed some other scenes/dialog between the 2 that never made it on the air, and there was a reason why Jacob came back after Ilana had healed.


I just assume jacob healed her so she could go.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

astrohip said:


> ...So what's with all the time travel? Why did we need a season and a half of it? How does it tie in to this eternal struggle between good & evil? Or is it just another aspect to this story, giving it more depth, but clearly as an aside, not directly related to Jacob vs MIB?





KellyR66 said:


> ....I'm still hoping that all the infection, magnetic island properties, Jacob, Smokey, others, temple, statue, manually keying in numbers on a PC, donkey wheel, whispering, ash circles, flash sideways, tunisia, & time travel all tie together nicely at the end of the last episode.





catcard said:


> ...My only question - how does the Dharma initiative impact the whole story? It seems now that Jacob and the MIB have been doing the manipulating of the people brought to the island. I think someone also mentioned that Jacob was the one who brought down Flight 815 - so it wasn't because of the what happened in the hatch?? What about the wheel that can move the island? Did Jacob create that? It just seems there are so many things in past seasons that don't seem to matter anymore.


Here's my perspective: The Island is a construct of some sort. A machine, or even a "ship," with unique properties. It contains a unique, perhaps even extraterrestrial magnetic energy. It can be very difficult (next to impossible) to find or locate. It can move through time. It may or may not originate from our world/universe/timeline.

When you plop something like that down in the Pacific, over time some people will discover it, mainly by accident. Word of mouth will gradually bring more people. Scientists like the Dharma Initiative. Countries like the US, hoping to find remote places to test nuclear weapons. Private capitalists (Hanso) looking for ways to use the Island to make money.

My guess is that Jacob did not bring any of those people here, so he feels no particular need to protect them or interact with them at all. As long as they do not damage his Island or attempt to free the MIB, he just leaves them alone. And Smokey probably looks for people he can corrupt, use to cause mayhem, and use to escape.

So while they may not figure much into the endgame, I do see how organizations like Dharma, the US government, and Alvar Hanso could come to be involved with the Island. And the time travel stuff is just a side effect of messing with a construct that has the ability to move through time.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Turtleboy said:


> Sometimes I wonder if I'm watching the same show as other people.
> 
> (1) They did not reveal whether the candidate is Sun or Jin. No one knows. Jacob didn't know, or he knew, he didn't tell Ilana. Ilana didn't know. Sun thinks she is, because she and/or Jin are. There's no way she could have known that it's her instead of Jin. She doesn't, and neither do we.
> 
> (2) The ship out at sea was clearly the Black Rock. It doesn't matter, really, but it was. The weather could have changed, it went from day to night when they got there, etc. But to say it's a different ship is just silly.


On #1 I did think it was confusing how Sun stated it. She did seem to stated definitively that she was a candidate (my wife turned to me to ask this at that moment) although Illana had clearly said in the previous episode that she had to protect both Jin and Sun because she didn't know which Kwan it was. I think Sun just poorly paraphrased what Illana told her. So I don't think there was a reveal either.

On #2, I don't think there is anything to say it CLEARLY was the Black Rock. However it very well could have been. I don't think it is fair to say it is just silly to think it could be another ship. It probably is but could easily not be as well. But either way it doesn't much matter.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

philw1776 said:


> Dharma was simply a secretive past attempt to exploit the scientific secrets of the island. It provided a nice backdrop for the '1977' season story telling. A well crafted mystery has lots of seemingly significant at the time twists and turns that later turn out to be diversions from what lies beneath. An even better crafted tale has nuggets of info revealed in those seemingly dead ends.


I've had a worry that the DI stuff was pretty pointless for a little while, too, but I think this episode actually helped explain some of it. We were just told the basic premise of the show: "Keep MiB on the island and find a replacement for Jacob."

Look at the different things the DI was doing at the different hatches: Building a hatch that somehow holds a huge amount of energy, pushing Buttons to keep this energy in place, watching and taking notes of people pushing buttons, random other experiments that I can't recall... Were these experiments and creations attempts to a) evaluate candidates and/or b) find a way to physically keep MiB on the island once Jacob is gone?

This episode helped me regain some confidence that there really was/is still a purpose to the whole DI/Others/Widmore storylines of the 1st few seasons. Maybe only a few people knew why DI was doing what they were doing, but I think we'll find that DI did have a purpose in the whole Jacob v MiB thing, (even if they weren't successful.)



Steveknj said:


> I also wonder a lot about why there was this NEED to come back to the island? Why Ben, Locke and Widmore were so adament they go back. What the connection is with Faraday and his mother.
> 
> Another way this could end is with both Jacob and MIB being bad, and the people on the island rebelling, proving free will wins out. I'm still not sure I like this whole thing being this giant game between these two sides because it seems to trivalize a lot of what happened. But I am understanding how some of the pieces might fit. The Time-Travel is still the biggest nut to crack.


Agreed. I understand it's relevance to the story, but I want some sort of explanation of HOW the time travel happens.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Lostpedia made me aware of this:

The Black Rock is swept inland by a large wave, just as Arzt suggested when the Flight 815 survivors first visited the Black Rock in 2004. ("Exodus, Part 3")

:up: for consistency. It's stuff like this that makes me itch for the end so I can take my unopened Christmas gift LOST Blu-rays and start watching the show from the beginning again.

Two things that interested me (among many in this excellent episode) were:
- The re-appearance of the name Hanso. This leads me to believe we might hear more about this fellow and how he ties in with Widmore.

- Jacob admitting that he cannot forgive sins. This means that Jacob isn't God because God and Jesus, because He was God in human form, were able to since they have the authority to. So, if Jacob isn't God, I do not believe the MIB is the devil either - since evil already exists off-island.

9 hours left!


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

JYoung said:


> 9 hours left!


10 actually, 8 episodes "before the series finale", with a 2-hour finale.I really hate when networks are confusing this way.

Greg


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

brianp6621 said:


> On #1 I did think it was confusing how Sun stated it. She did seem to stated definitively that she was a candidate (my wife turned to me to ask this at that moment) although Illana had clearly said in the previous episode that she had to protect both Jin and Sun because she didn't know which Kwan it was. I think Sun just poorly paraphrased what Illana told her. So I don't think there was a reveal either.


Well, technically she's a candidate for being a candidate for being Jacob's replacement. So in a way, she is a candidate.

If it turns out she wasn't the Kwon being referred to, then she's in no different a position right now than everyone else who has the potential to be Jacob's replacement, but ends up not being it.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jradford said:


> I've had a worry that the DI stuff was pretty pointless for a little while, too, but I think this episode actually helped explain some of it. We were just told the basic premise of the show: "Keep MiB on the island and find a replacement for Jacob."
> 
> Look at the different things the DI was doing at the different hatches: Building a hatch that somehow holds a huge amount of energy, pushing Buttons to keep this energy in place, watching and taking notes of people pushing buttons, random other experiments that I can't recall... Were these experiments and creations attempts to a) evaluate candidates and/or b) find a way to physically keep MiB on the island once Jacob is gone?
> 
> This episode helped me regain some confidence that there really was/is still a purpose to the whole DI/Others/Widmore storylines of the 1st few seasons. Maybe only a few people knew why DI was doing what they were doing, but I think we'll find that DI did have a purpose in the whole Jacob v MiB thing, (even if they weren't successful.)


I agree that the DI puzzle is beginning to take shape, but actually reached the opposite conclusion from you. I can't quite see it from your point of view because it doesn't jibe with the Others, for whom Richard was Jacob's intermediary, being at war, so to speak, with Dharma. I think that Dharma scientists discovered the island and its properties (whether we get an explanation of how remains to be seen), and naturally wanted to conduct experiments. For whatever reason, Jacob allowed Dharama to exist on the island, although the others needed to make sure that they couldn't do any sort of damage that might release Smokey into the world. Put another way, Jacob was content so long as Dharma did not do anything to uncork the bottle. I would speculate that at some point, whatever Dharma was doing got too dangerous for Jacob's liking, which is why Ben was permitted to execute his gassing of the village.

Someone earlier mentioned, and I agree, that although Jacob's overall intentions are probably good, he takes an ends justifies the means approach to things, so not everything he does is necessarily good. I believe that Richard not only acted as an intermediary between Jacob and whatever candidates he brought to the island, but eventually began acting in much the same role between Jacob and those who could perform necessary evil type tasks for Jacob (sometimes you've just got to fight fire with fire). Those people, such as Ben, might not even know that they were being used by Jacob in this way.

This is actually the ultimate irony of Jacob's existence: he's trying to stand back and make sure people make the right choices, but he doesn't always do so himself. Maybe the candidate who replaces him will do a better job. Thus, even in the bigger picture, it's always the same, but there's improvement each time.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

T-Wolves said:


> ...
> 
> *My guess is that Jacob did not bring any of those people here, so he feels no particular need to protect them or interact with them at all. As long as they do not damage his Island or attempt to free the MIB, he just leaves them alone.* And Smokey probably looks for people he can corrupt, use to cause mayhem, and use to escape.
> 
> So while they may not figure much into the endgame, I do see how organizations like Dharma, the US government, and Alvar Hanso could come to be involved with the Island. And the time travel stuff is just a side effect of messing with a construct that has the ability to move through time.


Thank you! you put my thoughts on this into something far more succinct then I could, I've had the same thing on my mind for a while.

Diane


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> America.


The "New World" is what they said from that time in history. 



DUDE_NJX said:


> During the never-ending scene on the ship with Ricardo trying to free himself: it bothered me that he would not use his legs, which were not chained to anything, to help him reach stuff (water, the nail, etc.)


Water? How could his feet have reached the dripping rainwater to help satisfy his thirst? LOL!



stevieleej said:


> I've been confused by the actions of MIB.
> <snip>
> He's needing people to help him, why kill so many without first trying to sway them to his side.


When MiB is killing, he's made of smoke --- his brain is foggy (literally!). 



Philosofy said:


> I'm confused ... if its the Island keeping him there, then he could have left when the bomb went off (unless he was killed by the bomb.)


Borrowing from my response in another recent thread:
I think the "bomb" didn't actually "go off".

Sayid had removed the reactor (fission) core. The rest of the 6 - 8 tons of (fusion) fuel was left in the bomb casing far away from the excavation site.

So the white light was the result of the fission reactor being set off in proximity to the pocket of electromagnetic energy. We can only speculate what that would actually do, but the reaction apparently emitted a white light and thrust Juliet and the rest of the time-travelers forward in time to 2007. There was not necessarily an "explosion" per se.

NOTE: I am not a rocket scientist, but a quick Google search will explain that the H-bomb is a fission-fusion device.


> The basics of the Teller-Ulam design for a hydrogen bomb: a fission bomb uses radiation to compress and heat a separate section of fusion fuel.





brianp6621 said:


> I agree the tree should have been much bigger, but the rest could have been much the same. There appeared to be a bench there so what is to say people didn't use that area during the next 170 years and keep it cleaned. And it isn't as if the necklace was going to "migrate" anywhere through the dirt. People have found relatively undisturbed ruins much older with only the vegetation issue to contend with. Didn't bother me that much....


Although it's not really that big of a deal to me either, remember our speculation about Kate appearing up in a tree after Juliet caused the final 30 year jump forward in time in the first episode of this Season? Some of us posited that Kate was standing over a sapling in 1977 when the jump happened, and the sapling grew into the tree with Kate waking up on a branch high up in the air.

Also, I grew up on an old property where the house and yard were 100 years old. My brothers and I used to dig up stuff in the garden from 100 years ago. And everything metallic had corroded to some extent. I don't know how much a gold necklace might corrode after being buried for 140 years, but I'm prepared to accept it and continue enjoying the story as it unfolds without getting hung up on that detail.


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## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

Don't *think* this has been touched on here .. but I have an "out" for the issue about Richard being only ~170yrs old. They are on an island that has the ability to send people through time. Perhaps Richard leaps back 2000 years and lives out his life from that point forth. He could have been referred to as Ricardus easily enough during that time frame. 

Just a thought ..


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

BitbyBlit said:


> Well, technically she's a candidate for being a candidate for being Jacob's replacement. So in a way, she is a candidate.
> 
> If it turns out she wasn't the Kwon being referred to, then she's in no different a position right now than everyone else who has the potential to be Jacob's replacement, but ends up not being it.


Technically yes, but also technically, there is a very specific list of whom the candidates really are, and she either is or isn't on that list. The fact that they(illana, the others, the losties) and the viewers don't know if she is truly on the "real" list, doesn't change the fact that she is either a "true" candidate or has never been one.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

getreal said:


> Water? How could his feet have reached the dripping rainwater to help satisfy his thirst? LOL!


Simple. Let your pants soak up rain, and twist them out with your hands.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

MirclMax said:


> Don't *think* this has been touched on here .. but I have an "out" for the issue about Richard being only ~170yrs old. They are on an island that has the ability to send people through time. Perhaps Richard leaps back 2000 years and lives out his life from that point forth. He could have been referred to as Ricardus easily enough during that time frame.


They've given no reason whatsoever for him being called Ricardus, so there must be some derivation to that name - yours makes as much sense as any we could speculate about at this time.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I imagine the others called him that when they'd speak their "secret" (Latin) language.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

MirclMax said:


> Don't *think* this has been touched on here .. but I have an "out" for the issue about Richard being only ~170yrs old. They are on an island that has the ability to send people through time. Perhaps Richard leaps back 2000 years and lives out his life from that point forth. He could have been referred to as Ricardus easily enough during that time frame.
> 
> Just a thought ..


I don't think it's that complicated. I think the story is that Jacob, not Richard, is ancient. "Ricardo," which is what Richard was called in his original life on the Canary Islands, became "Ricardus" because Jacob started calling him that.


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## pj1016 (Apr 3, 2009)

Great episode. Went by very fast.

Well, now we know that Richard is just "an errand by, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill". 

pj


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

BrandonRe said:


> I don't think it's that complicated. I think the story is that Jacob, not Richard, is ancient. "Ricardo," which is what Richard was called in his original life on the Canary Islands, became "Ricardus" because Jacob started calling him that.


That's what I'm thinking. When I was a kid, I went by Gregory, but my friend's dad down the street refused to call me that. He said, I'm Mexican, I speak Spanish, and in Spanish your name is Gregorio. That's just what he called me.

Greg


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Any chance Whidmore and MiB are actually on the _same _side? We're thinking there's gonna be this war between them, but is that only because Sawyer assumes they are on opposite sides and he's trying to play them against one another? They both seem bad and perhaps they are on the same side.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Tsiehta said:


> that coupled with the style of the ships (Black Rock), which I don't think are from the 1867 time period in design (they definitely seem to come from a time period earlier than 1867, makes me wonder what the writes are doing. I think they are in error if they really mean 1867.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but that date seems wrong. Thoughts?


I'm agree. I'm glad that there is someone else here that cares about the 'facts.' 

Lostpedia points out


> The subtitle at the beginning of Richard's flashback places the events in 1867, yet the Black Rock was thought to be lost at sea following its departure from Portsmouth, England, March 22, 1845 ("The Constant") and the ledger was discovered in 1852. Richard is sold into slavery to a British ship, but Great Bitain outlawed slavery in 1833.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

KellyR66 said:


> For example in season one, there is an episode where Boone gets critically injured while checking out the drug plane. On the way to the plane, Locke can barely walk as if his paralysis is coming back. Why? Just one of about a billion questions..


It's just a theory, but I thought it was because they were foreshadowing when Locke gets shot by Ethan near the plane, when he's jumping through time (season 5, ep 1). Or the writers did it for the hell of it in season 1 and decided to touch back on it in season 5. 
But I agree it's one of many that won't be answered.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> I'm agree. I'm glad that there is someone else here that cares about the 'facts.'
> 
> Lostpedia points out


It can't be earlier than 1867 because Nobel hadn't patented dynamite until then.

And just because slavery was illegal in Great Britain doesn't mean that this was a legal operation.
In fact, it seemed to me that it totally wasn't when the priest "sold" Ricardo.

I suspect that the slaves were going to be used as labor in some type of illegal mining operation.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

JYoung said:


> It can't be earlier than 1867 because Nobel hadn't patented dynamite until then.
> 
> And just because slavery was illegal in Great Britain doesn't mean that this was a legal operation.
> In fact, it seemed to me that it totally wasn't when the priest "sold" Ricardo.
> ...


I posted in another episode thread about the dynamite... which makes me think the writer's goofed because it was the writers who used the date March 22, 1845.

How can it be lost at sea around 1852 and then port in Spain in 1867?

ETA- found the transcript:


> AUCTIONEER: The Black Rock set sail from Portsmouth, England on March 22, 1845 on a trading mission to the kingdom of Siam, when she was tragically lost at sea. The only known artifact of this journey is the journal of the ship's first mate, which was discovered among the artifacts of pirates on the Ile Sante-Marie off the coast of Madagascar seven years later. The contents of this journal have never been made public, or known to anyone outside the family of the seller, Tovard Hanso.


----------



## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

jradford said:


> While Jacob brought the Black Rock to the island, I (surprisingly) didn't get the feeling that he specifically was trying to bring Richard to the island. I think we found out last night that Richard is definitely NOT a candidate.


If he trusts Richard so much and MIB can't kill Richard, why isn't Richard a candidate?



gchance said:


> This one has not: why was the cross that Richard buried twelve inches under the topsoil 150 years ago still twelve inches under the topsoil?


Who cares. Maybe he tends the site regularly.



MonsterJoe said:


> and it answered another burning question...yes, richard has always worn eyeliner.


lol


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

tewcewl said:


> - The re-appearance of the name Hanso. This leads me to believe we might hear more about this fellow and how he ties in with Widmore.


Magnus Hanso was revealed as the captain of the Black Rock two seasons ago when we saw Charles Widmore purchasing the ledger from the ship at an antique auction.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

3D said:


> I agree that the DI puzzle is beginning to take shape, but actually reached the opposite conclusion from you. I can't quite see it from your point of view because it doesn't jibe with the Others, for whom Richard was Jacob's intermediary, being at war, so to speak, with Dharma. I think that Dharma scientists discovered the island and its properties (whether we get an explanation of how remains to be seen), and naturally wanted to conduct experiments. For whatever reason, Jacob allowed Dharama to exist on the island, although the others needed to make sure that they couldn't do any sort of damage that might release Smokey into the world. Put another way, Jacob was content so long as Dharma did not do anything to uncork the bottle. I would speculate that at some point, whatever Dharma was doing got too dangerous for Jacob's liking, which is why Ben was permitted to execute his gassing of the village.
> 
> Someone earlier mentioned, and I agree, that although Jacob's overall intentions are probably good, he takes an ends justifies the means approach to things, so not everything he does is necessarily good. I believe that Richard not only acted as an intermediary between Jacob and whatever candidates he brought to the island, but eventually began acting in much the same role between Jacob and those who could perform necessary evil type tasks for Jacob (sometimes you've just got to fight fire with fire). Those people, such as Ben, might not even know that they were being used by Jacob in this way.
> 
> This is actually the ultimate irony of Jacob's existence: he's trying to stand back and make sure people make the right choices, but he doesn't always do so himself. Maybe the candidate who replaces him will do a better job. Thus, even in the bigger picture, it's always the same, but there's improvement each time.


You're right, your line of thinking fits in a little better with the DI vs. Others struggle for co-existence back in the day. I can still see it working that DI was knowingly or, more likely unknowingly, working on things to possibly contribute to Jacob's ultimate goal against the MiB and whatever it is he's supposed to be.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> How can it be lost at sea around 1852 and then port in Spain in 1867?


Maybe it's just "off the grid." Thought to be lost, but engaged in illegal activity.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

MonsterJoe said:


> I just assume jacob healed her so she could go.


A perfectly logical explanation, and I have no idea why I didn't think of it. Too busy looking for hidden meanings, I guess. :up:


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## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> keep watching and have faith that the show will take yet another turn!


I just find it funny that one has to have fait that the show won't be about Christianity  I'm not dissing the comment. It just struck me as funny. I do have faith that it won't be about Christianity. Maybe not faith, but def. hope.



DUDE_NJX said:


> During the never-ending scene on the ship with Ricardo trying to free himself: it bothered me that he would not use his legs, which were not chained to anything, to help him reach stuff (water, the nail, etc.)


I thought of that too. Maybe that wouldn't have been useful when it was raining, but he could've reached the nail after the boar knocked it out of his hands.


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## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

DancnDude said:


> Any chance Whidmore and MiB are actually on the _same _side? ...


They certainly could be. He may be there to help MIB finish off whatever else needs to be done to allow MIB to escape the Island.

Does the Island need to be destroyed(*sunk?* - is the flash-sideways the world where MIB is loose in the world??!!). Does all life on the Island need to be extinguished? Does MIB need to travel on a sub or a plane just like the rest of us (No black "Smoke on the Water" for MIB?)?. Widmore could be there to help kill everybody, destroy the Island, and/or help Smokey leave.

Speaking of escaping the Island, it certainly appears that *somebody* will be leaving in the Ajira Airways plane before the series is over. Because I don't see any other reason for the Frank Lapidus character to still be in the cast at this point. The guy gets like one line per episode.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> I posted in another episode thread about the dynamite... which makes me think the writer's goofed because it was the writers who used the date March 22, 1845.
> 
> How can it be lost at sea around 1852 and then port in Spain in 1867?
> 
> ETA- found the transcript:





hefe said:


> Maybe it's just "off the grid." Thought to be lost, but engaged in illegal activity.


That's what I would say if I was one of the writers.
It does give the owner of the Black Rock "plausible deniability".


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> During the never-ending scene on the ship with Ricardo trying to free himself: it bothered me that he would not use his legs, which were not chained to anything, to help him reach stuff (water, the nail, etc.)


More evidence that the feet WERE shackled. Scroll down for photos of Hurley in shackles!!


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

getreal said:


> More evidence that the feet WERE shackled. Scroll down for photos of Hurley in shackles!!


Yes, I mentioned earlier that they're shackled, but not chained to the ship - still allowing for a bigger reach.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

A PS3 playing friend just linked to this bit about the new game "Just Cause 2":

http://www.ps3attitude.com/new/2010/03/lost-island-hidden-2/

Kinda cool. 

EDIT:


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Simple. Let your pants soak up rain, and twist them out with your hands.


That's what Bear Grylls would do!









(that's elephant poo, btw)


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> That's what Bear Grylls would do!


No he wouldn't. He'd pee on his scarf and wrap it around his head, then lick the drippings as they run down his face.

Greg


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Maybe the DI was allowed to stay since some of them might be candidates. Like maybe Ben and Ethan. 

The DI used the pylons to keep out Smokey. I wonder how they discovered that. And how were the Others in the jungle protected from him? Just because they were Jacob's people? It also was suggested at first that the Others all lived a long time and never got sick. But what would be the purpose of leaving them around if they had already determined they weren't candidates? 

Did Ben know about candidates? He would be jealous of them, and probably not help with that if he knew it. Maybe Jacob made him need a spinal surgeon to make sure he didn't let Jack go. Which he eventually did.

And Widmore's job may have been to take all the candidates off the island. Was Sawyer the only candidate who wasn't in the Oceanic 6? And Jin, if he's one. Maybe Widmore thinks he can "harness" Smokey for his own purposes since Jacob is gone.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

MickeS said:


> A PS3 playing friend just linked to this bit about the new game "Just Cause 2":
> 
> http://www.ps3attitude.com/new/2010/03/lost-island-hidden-2/
> 
> Kinda cool.


That's awesome! There's a LOST easter egg in X-Men Origins: Wolverine, too. It's not nearly on the same level as the Just Cause 2 one, but you can come across the hatch while in the jungle. There's even an achievement associated with it. The achievement name is "Found!"


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

pressed for time, so here are my unedited notes:

Lost questions

 Did we ever see Libby and Smokey in the same scene? Could she have died after giving Desmond the sail boat, Hurley saw her in the background at Santa Rosa because she was dead, and he saw her on the island the whole time? Did others that we *know* are alive see Libby? I think so, but..

 What's with Isabella being in the Black Rock while we still hear the tika tika tika sound outside??

 Wondered about Hurley actually being Hurley until I saw Locke watching from afar, but what about previous bullet? Can smokey "split" into two? I hope not! What's up with this???

 Why is anyone worried about dying in hell? (that's what Isa thought, and Richard and her were very afraid when they heard smokey)

 Did Dojan/Geddy drown Sayid to make him truly want to live?

 Black Rock scene makes sense to me -we see it arriving in daylight while Jacob/MiB chat, RealLocke turns the wheel right after that chat, the island and boat move, now it's night (a gimmick they often use to show us that we've time jumped - that the island moved).

 Maybe we misread smokey's judging of Mr Eko. Maybe he realized Eko was proof that Jacob was right - some people (Eko) weren't corruptable. Ben was sorry so he could be conned via making him feel that tasks requested of him would redeem him, when they were just manipulation.

 Flocke now knows that Jacob still has influence after his death, because Richard called him to change his mind, but he changed his mind again while talking to Hurley.

You strike me down now, and I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

 Now even cooler scene: Richard asking young Ben in the jungle if he saw someone who was dead.

 post 53 wrong, NOT definite

 maybe the ash is supposed to be sand.. Smokey can't go over any sand-beach-ashcircles. It's be better if there weren't any cliffs and the whole island was surrounded by beach, keeping smokey on.

(go to Lostpedia and if it doesn't exist, add recurring theme "pretending not to understand a language")

When did Hurley see Richard to know he doesn't age? (2 weeks ago)

 I think we saw the first time the whole candidates idea was conceived. Before he brought people to the island just to prove smokey wrong about human corruptability. Then smokey tried killing Jacob for the first time with Richard. After that Jacob brought people both to prove him wrong AND to look for a replacement in case smokey was right and he'd kill Jacob.*

Hmm. Why was he surprised (you tried to kill me??) if that scene was after the season 5 finale? If not, actually two boats??


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> pressed for time, so here are my unedited notes:
> 
> Lost questions
> 
> ...


I went back today and watched some prior scenes, back as far as "The Incident."

At the beginning of "The Incident" when MiB and Jacob are on the beach, right after MiB asks Jacob if he knows how bad he wants to kill him, and Jacob says he does, MiB says he'll just have to find a loophole. But Jacob then says something like "but someone else will just take my place," and MiB says "then I'll kill them too."

So (1) Jacob can't honestly be surprised by a murder attempt by MiB via proxy, and (2) it seems the idea of a Jacob replacement was there before Richard's attempt, and you'll have to convince me that "candidates" and "replacements" are disinguishable in some way.

Also, when Ilana brings FLocke to the foot statue (in "LA X," I think), FLocke seems genuinely confused as to why Ilana brought him there, as if he never saw it before, saying "well, great, that's a great foot, but why did you bring me here?" Yet in the beginning scene of The Incident, Jacob says to MiB, "if you figure out that loophole, you'll know where I'll be ... right here" or something to that effect. That doesn't seem consistent at all.

One other thing I found interesting: when Ilana arrives at the foot statue with her henchmen, she calls out "which one of you is Ricardus?", with Richard standing right in front of her - she clearly didn't know who he was. Richard steps forward and says "it's Richard, actually," and she calls him Richard from there on. Is it possible that Ilana just had the name Ricardus wrong? That he was never *really* called Ricardus? And whatever her relation is with Jacob, it did not involve being somewhere with Richard.

Edit: the "you tried to kill me" scene had to happen after the season 5 finale - season 5 finale had a complete statute, and "you tried to kill me" had just the foot. Of course, it didn't have to happen right after, just sometime later. (And I'll add that the first scene in "The Incident" was in the morning - Jacob says "good morning" to MiB when he walks up on the beach.)


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

You know Jeff, after reading your post I had a thought.

Many of the questions we have that we're thinking won't be answered are tied to Smokey/MiB. Who's to say that after we've had enough revealed, like in one of the two or three episodes, that we won't see an extended Smokey flashback similar to what we saw with Richard?

Come to think of it, we'll likely see an origin episode of both Jacob & MiB. As it progresses, it would be easy for them to show us many of the instances where MiB appeared to be someone ELSE (Christian, Yemi, Kate's horse).

Greg


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> Also, when Ilana brings FLocke to the foot statue (in "LA X," I think), FLocke seems genuinely confused as to why Ilana brought him there, as if he never saw it before, saying "well, great, that's a great foot, but why did you bring me here?" Yet in the beginning scene of The Incident, Jacob says to MiB, "if you figure out that loophole, you'll know where I'll be ... right here" or something to that effect. That doesn't seem consistent at all.


This was before he was outed, so to speak. She didn't know he was MiB at that point, and he was keeping up pretenses.



> One other thing I found interesting: when Ilana arrives at the foot statue with her henchmen, she calls out "which one of you is Ricardus?", with Richard standing right in front of her - she clearly didn't know who he was. Richard steps forward and says "it's Richard, actually," and she calls him Richard from there on. Is it possible that Ilana just had the name Ricardus wrong? That he was never *really* called Ricardus? And whatever her relation is with Jacob, it did not involve being somewhere with Richard.


That one's easy, in this episode, Jacob told Ilana his name was Ricardus. 

Greg


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

gchance said:


> No he wouldn't. He'd pee on his scarf and wrap it around his head, then lick the drippings as they run down his face.
> 
> Greg


i got nuthin. you're so right.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

gchance said:


> This was before he was outed, so to speak. She didn't know he was MiB at that point, and he was keeping up pretenses.


Well, sure, I thought of that, but I'm not sure Terry O or the director knew that, because he definitely looked like he had no idea what the statue was or why they were there and they added a closeup scene on his face where he just looks completely confused.



gchance said:


> That one's easy, in this episode, Jacob told Ilana his name was Ricardus.
> 
> Greg


*nods* I assume you mean when he was instructing her what to do after she got her bandages off. Still, I'd had this theory that Ilana and Richard might have known each other from their prior dealings with Jacob, but that scene pretty much blew that out of the water (unless, again, she and he were both just playing stupid *really* well).


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

A correction...


Bananfish said:


> Also, when *Ilana* brings FLocke to the foot statue (in "LA X," I think), FLocke seems genuinely confused as to why *Ilana* brought him there, as if he never saw it before, saying "well, great, that's a great foot, but why did you bring me here?" Yet in the beginning scene of The Incident, Jacob says to MiB, "if you figure out that loophole, you'll know where I'll be ... right here" or something to that effect. That doesn't seem consistent at all.


Ilana does not take UnLocke to the statue. It's Alpert that takes him. She comes later, draging the case with RealLocke's body in it. By the time she gets to the foot statue with her henchmen, Jacob is already dead. Or, at the very least, UnLocke is already in the bas of the statue with Ben.

In answer to the question, he is still playing Locke for the group. He does not want to let on that he knows too much.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> pressed for time, so here are my unedited notes:
> 
> Lost questions
> 
> ...


We saw Michael whom we knew to be alive shoot Libby.

The Isabella/Smokey juxtaposition confused me too.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

One thing really is bugging me. *Who* was in the cabin? Ben and the Other thought it was Jacob, but that really wasn't true, was it? Jacob walks around, goes off Island all the time -- he wasn't the one imprisoned. Also, the ash ring around the cabin would indicate that it had to be MIB. Except the Smoke Monster was around quite a bit.

Aaaah, now that I think of it, Smokey was around early on, but did he not disappear for a couple of seasons? Maybe he *did* get locked up in that cabin, somehow. 

Bu, then, the Others clearly knew about the ring of ash, and they though Jacob lived in the cabin. So, then, the ash had to be there to keep Smokey away from Jacob. But Smokey could not kill Jacob, not that easily. So there was no reason to protect Jacob from Smokey.

So who, really, was in that cabin? Was the ash meant to keep someone in? Or out? And whom were they trying to keep out? Who knows, maybe it's not even Smokey.

You think the mysteries of the cabin will be answered in the next 9 hours?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Of course. That does beg the question of whether smokey could impersonate her on island (if smokey didn't need a corpse on island to impersonate people, which last night's episode showed (if Isa was smokey)). That's why I wonder if we've seen smokey and Libby together now..


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## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gchance 
Once again, I'm foiled by the endless thread. I attempted three times today to respond and got pulled away before finishing my post, only to find that many of the things I said hadn't been addressed.

This one has not: why was the cross that Richard buried twelve inches under the topsoil 150 years ago still twelve inches under the topsoil?

Greg

I noticed that too. I think everyone realizes it's just a convenience for the plot so there wasn't anything really to say about it.

New thought:

I wondered if now the cross was going to be some sort of protection for Richard, much as in the mythology that a cross protects someone from a vampire or, in a more religious vein, from the devil. Richard put it around his neck, rather than just putting it in his pocket.

Just a thought.

Barbeedoll


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Of course. That does beg the question of whether smokey could impersonate her on island (if smokey didn't need a corpse on island to impersonate people, which last night's episode showed (if Isa was smokey)). That's why I wonder if we've seen smokey and Libby together now..


I think the writers did all they could to indicate that it was Isabella's spirit and not something else. Hurley being the only one who could see and communicate with her, mainly. Smokey can't be invisible. In fact when in smoke form is FAR from invisible. Loud and dark. When in person form, can be seen by anyone.

If anyone was "impersonating" Isabella, it was Jacob, but we've seen no indication, that we know of, that Jacob can assume other forms.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

hefe said:


> Season 5, episode 12, "Dead is Dead."
> 
> DeadLocke takes Ben to be judged.


Okay, so as of episode 5:12, MIB was "locked in Locke," wasn't he?
So, that would mean "Alex" was not Smokey/MIB, as most of us thought at the time. Right?


jkeegan said:


> Of course. That does beg the question of whether smokey could impersonate her on island (if smokey didn't need a corpse on island to impersonate people, which last night's episode showed (if Isa was smokey)). That's why I wonder if we've seen smokey and Libby together now..


Do you mean on the Black Rock? Smokey was on the deck, and Isabella ran away from him. If someoen was impersonating Isabella, it wasn't Smokey. (Could it be the same person that impersonated Alex with Ben?)



Peter000 said:


> I think the writers did all they could to indicate that it was Isabella's spirit and not something else. Hurley being the only one who could see and communicate with her, mainly. Smokey can't be invisible. In fact when in smoke form is FAR from invisible. Loud and dark. When in person form, can be seen by anyone.
> 
> If anyone was "impersonating" Isabella, it was Jacob, but we've seen no indication, that we know of, that Jacob can assume other forms.


I think you're right about the end, but doesn't necessarily answer about the scene with her on the Black Rock.

I'm confused.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> Okay, so as of episode 5:12, MIB was "locked in Locke," wasn't he?
> So, that would mean "Alex" was not Smokey/MIB, as most of us thought at the time. Right?


I'm not getting that. If he could become Smokey, why couldn't he appear as another person? Maybe being trapped in Locke is like a home base he needs to return to. Alex was totally serving Dead Locke's purpose, so I'm thinking it was him...but who knows...


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> Do you mean on the Black Rock? Smokey was on the deck, and Isabella ran away from him. If someoen was impersonating Isabella, it wasn't Smokey. (Could it be the same person that impersonated Alex with Ben?)
> 
> I think you're right about the end, but doesn't necessarily answer about the scene with her on the Black Rock.
> 
> I'm confused.


I forgot about that part. I kind of was assuming that was a show put on for Richard by the MIB. But I'm not sure.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

hefe said:


> I'm not getting that. If he could become Smokey, why couldn't he appear as another person? Maybe being trapped in Locke is like a home base he needs to return to. Alex was totally serving Dead Locke's purpose, so I'm thinking it was him...but who knows...


When people were referring to him being trapped in Locke, I took that to mean he couldn't take on any other human form from that point. But maybe it is a home base thing.

Still confused. Probably will be for a while. But I'm learning to enjoy it.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> Edit: the "you tried to kill me" scene had to happen after the season 5 finale - season 5 finale had a complete statue, and "you tried to kill me" had just the foot. Of course, it didn't have to happen right after, just sometime later.


The statue was intact when the ship was off in the distance and Jacob and MiB were talking in the morning.

The statue was broken after the ship had crashed into the head of the statue while riding that huge wave which took it inland, and from which Richard emerged to attempt to kill Jacob as a promise to the MiB.



philw1776 said:


> The Isabella/Smokey juxtaposition confused me too.





barbeedoll said:


> I wondered if now the cross was going to be some sort of protection for Richard, much as in the mythology that a cross protects someone from a vampire or, in a more religious vein, from the devil. Richard put it around his neck, rather than just putting it in his pocket.


I think the cross and necklace represented Isabella's spirit.

While Ricardo was still shackled within the Black Rock, her visitation was merely his imagination. Remember that he was delirious and broken at the time, and had already witnessed the smoke monster kill everybody around him and do that analyzing thing with the flashing lights while he kept his eyes closed. When he opened them, Smokey was gone, but it probably now knew his thoughts and history.

When Ricardo buried the necklace 140 years ago, he was symbolically burying HER.

After the scene (in the present time) with Hurley and Isabella's ghost/spirit, Richard dug up the necklace to reconnect with her and to symbolically carry her spirit with him.



mqpickles said:


> Okay, so as of episode 5:12, MIB was "locked in Locke," wasn't he?
> So, that would mean "Alex" was not Smokey/MIB, as most of us thought at the time. Right?





hefe said:


> I'm not getting that. If he could become Smokey, why couldn't he appear as another person? Maybe being trapped in Locke is like a home base he needs to return to. Alex was totally serving Dead Locke's purpose, so I'm thinking it was him...but who knows...


*unLocke was not LOCKED into Locke until AFTER Jacob had been killed.* He was still able to take the form of Alex because they had not gotten to Jacob yet.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Richard had a couple of significant scenes where he was asked to close his eyes by Isabella. 

First, as she lay on her deathbed, just before Ricardo left to get medicine for her and she wanted to reassure him.

He also kept his eyes closed while Smokey was checking him out.

And when Isabella was trying to communicate through Hurley, she asked Richard to close his eyes so that he could "hear" her. A very powerful scene indeed!

I still want to know about Ilana's history and connection with Jacob. Where did she come from? What has she been through? They've apparently known each other for a long time.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

getreal said:


> And when Isabella was trying to communicate through Hurley, she asked Richard to close his eyes so that he could "hear" her. A very powerful scene indeed!


I thought they were going to pull out some clay and a potter's wheel and go to it!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

If Jacob and MIB are ancient creatures isolated on the Island, how come they both speak English with a modern American accent?

Even when Ricardo first came to the island, his Spanish is certainly much better than his English. Why did they need to speak to him in English and not in Spanish?

Probably for the same reason that all of the aliens on Star Trek speak English.


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## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> If Jacob and MIB are ancient creatures isolated on the Island, how come they both speak English with a modern American accent?
> 
> Even when Ricardo first came to the island, his Spanish is certainly much better than his English. Why did they need to speak to him in English and not in Spanish?
> 
> Probably for the same reason that all of the aliens on Star Trek speak English.


Hah, good question.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

So the ship crashed into the statue and all that is left is one foot. Wouldn't we see some pieces of the head, body, arms, other leg and foot? Some of it would go into the ocean, but some would have ended up on land I would think.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

betts4 said:


> So the ship crashed into the statue and all that is left is one foot. Wouldn't we see some pieces of the head, body, arms, other leg and foot? Some of it would go into the ocean, but some would have ended up on land I would think.


In a couple of scenes in this episode that took place shortly after the Black Rock shipwrecked on the island, you _can_ see chunks of the statue scattered around the beach.

By "present day", I suppose 100+ years worth of waves and tides would have eroded them away and/or dragged them out further into the sea.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

ct1 said:


> I thought they were going to pull out some clay and a potter's wheel and go to it!


I take it you don't watch "Community"?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Roadblock said:


> Hah, *good *question.


Umm, not really. If the show was produced on some alien world where Jacob is from (if that were the case) then you could say it was a good question why they spoke English. I mean, do you really want them to spend the time and money creating a language no-body can understand, and then spoil the scenery by plastering subtitles all over the screen?


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Haven't read the entire thread so could be repeating this, but I guess we now know the cave is the MiB's. The white stone that he threw into the water was the stone that Jacob had Richard give to him.

I guess the list of names on the cave was his "kill list".

The Others still seem strange to me. They seem so far from what Jacob was wanting them to be. I guess he didn't provide them any guidance and left that to Richard.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Just listened to Lindelcuse on their most recent podcast....some interesting info....spoilerized just in case....

Name of the finale:


Spoiler



The End



We will see more of:


Spoiler



Desmond and Libby



We will get some backstory info on:


Spoiler



how jacob and mib got to the island



As with Jacob's explaining ths Island to richard a la the wine, there will be much more of characters that know things answering the questions of other characters.

And it may be total misdirection, but in answering viewer mail, they indicate that


Spoiler



"it is possible that MiB and Jacob could be one and the same."


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

jlb said:


> Just listened to Lindelcuse on their most recent podcast....some interesting info....spoilerized just in case....
> 
> Name of the finale:
> 
> ...


That last point really should be spoilerized. I spoilered it in my quote.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Of all things not really necessary to spoilerize, really, the title for the last episode gives nothing away...it's kind of what you might expect, actually.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Fish Man said:


> In a couple of scenes in this episode that took place shortly after the Black Rock shipwrecked on the island, you _can_ see chunks of the statue scattered around the beach.


thanks, I need to go back and rewatch it. I was going to do that anyway!


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I think for Lost a good finale title would be



Spoiler



Tolip



Greg


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

I wasn't really a fan of the Ghost Whisperer ending (would have been a bigger fan if it were Jennifer Love Hewitt rather than Jorge Garcia), but the rest of the episode was awesome.

I think the MIB made it so women on the island couldn't have children, since children are the most likely able to prove Jacob right.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

gchance said:


> I think for Lost a good finale title would be
> 
> Greg


Or maybe 'Ha Ha"


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> If Jacob and MIB are ancient creatures isolated on the Island, how come they both speak English with a modern American accent?
> 
> Even when Ricardo first came to the island, his Spanish is certainly much better than his English. Why did they need to speak to him in English and not in Spanish?
> 
> Probably for the same reason that all of the aliens on Star Trek speak English.


Or they're speaking Latin because Latin is Jacob's native tongue.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I think a good title for the last episode would be "Found"


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

dtle said:


> Another inconsistency that I've not seen anyone brought up. The Canary Island and Portsmouth are both in the Atlantic Ocean, while the Oceanic flight crashed into the Pacific. So does this mean the island was moved once before?


I kind of figured that the ship Ricardo/us was on was a prison ship to Australia. It fits from a timeline (the last prison ships sailed in the late 1860s) and location (somewhere in the South Pacific) perspective. The ship representative in the prison did say something about Richard wanting to go the New World and this being his chance, but that could have been sarcasm.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

It wasn't the bomb that sank the Island, it was global warming!
http://www.weather.com/outlook/weather-news/news/articles/indian-island-submerged_2010-03-25


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I kind of figured that the ship Ricardo/us was on was a prison ship to Australia. It fits from a timeline (the last prison ships sailed in the late 1860s) and location (somewhere in the South Pacific) perspective. The ship representative in the prison did say something about Richard wanting to go the New World and this being his chance, but that could have been sarcasm.


That's how I saw it, as a prison ship, not a slave ship (semantics maybe). I think it was common practice for prisoners to be sold into work details in that era...wasn't Australia founded that way? And I would imagine that businesses paid for the privilage. Since Ricardo had a death sentence, perhaps he had a "life" sentence with whoever bought his services. A slave is a slave based on nothing he did, but a prisoner is an indentured servent, because his 'free will" caused it to be so.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> The ship representative in the prison did say something about Richard wanting to go the New World and this being his chance, but that could have been sarcasm.


Would Australia have been considered part of the "New World" to a 19th Century European, or would that term have been reserved solely for the Americas?


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Philosofy said:


> I think a good title for the last episode would be "Found"


How about "We apologise for the inconvenience".


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> I'm confused. If Jacob kept MiB on the Island, when Jacob died, MiB could leave. So its not Jacob. But if its the Island keeping him there, then he could have left when the bomb went off (unless he was killed by the bomb.) But he's still there. And if sinking the Island (like in the flash sideways) could keep him there forever, why wasn't the Island sunk in the first place. And if he's free in the flash sideways, then why isn't the world suffering for it?





T-Wolves said:


> Does the Island need to be destroyed(*sunk?* - is the flash-sideways the world where MIB is loose in the world??!!).


so this is interesting. IF the island sinking means the cork is removed and MIB can leave, and the flash sideways is life w/ MIB released, wellll.... is anybody's life worse off in the sideways? i believe they all had better lives, except maybe Kate. So in this scenario, IS MiB pure evil? Or the opposite? This could be an indication that perhaps he's not evil, he's just pissed that Jacob has been keeping him on here for all eternity.


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## kemajor (Jan 2, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> I think a good title for the last episode would be "Found"


I like "It Only Ends Once".

- K


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

wprager said:


> One thing really is bugging me. *Who* was in the cabin? Ben and the Other thought it was Jacob, but that really wasn't true, was it? Jacob walks around, goes off Island all the time -- he wasn't the one imprisoned. Also, the ash ring around the cabin would indicate that it had to be MIB. Except the Smoke Monster was around quite a bit.
> 
> Aaaah, now that I think of it, Smokey was around early on, but did he not disappear for a couple of seasons? Maybe he *did* get locked up in that cabin, somehow.
> 
> ...


I do. This is the one of the biggest, nagging questions yet left to answer, including why the cabin seemed to move.


kemajor said:


> I like "It Only Ends Once".


Good one. I do like their title, though, because it denotes finality. They're definitely going to wrap up the story done and done.

jlb, do they explain the discrepancy of the years that the Black Rock was said to leave vs. the actual date in their podcast?


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> jlb, do they explain the discrepancy of the years that the Black Rock was said to leave vs. the actual date in their podcast?


No. But they discussed something else about the Black Rock that we've discussed in here.

Not really spoilery at all:


Spoiler



The ship in the beginning of last season's finale is the Black Rock.



Slightly more spoilery but not really:


Spoiler



The fact that it started storming is significant



Before Jacob died, the only person he ever spoke to on the island was Richard. Now, the only person he speaks to is Hurley.

Ben and Richard know that "Locke" is the smoke monster. (Maybe Ilana knows, too). So, why aren't they telling Hurley, Jack and Sun? All they say is, it's "not really Locke."


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

I thought the same thing about the flash-sideways world needing a touch more evilness if MIB is supposed to be loose. I figured the last scene would be a cut to a maniacally-laughting President Sarah Palin.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

milo99 said:


> so this is interesting. IF the island sinking means the cork is removed and MIB can leave, and the flash sideways is life w/ MIB released, wellll.... is anybody's life worse off in the sideways? i believe they all had better lives, except maybe Kate. So in this scenario, IS MiB pure evil? Or the opposite? This could be an indication that perhaps he's not evil, he's just pissed that Jacob has been keeping him on here for all eternity.


Or maybe the "progress" Jacob has been looking for has been achieved and the rest of the world is ready for whatever MiB is supposed to be. Eh, kind of weak. Hmmm...


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

aindik said:


> Ben and Richard know that "Locke" is the smoke monster. (Maybe Ilana knows, too). *So, why aren't they telling Hurley, Jack and Sun?* All they say is, it's "not really Locke."


Hi,
This must be your first season watching LOST.  For years it has frustrated LOST viewers that unlike real people, the LOSTies never compare notes or exchange information, no matter how significant or unusual an event occurs.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

aindik said:


> Ben and Richard know that "Locke" is the smoke monster. (Maybe Ilana knows, too). *So, why aren't they telling Hurley, Jack and Sun?* All they say is, it's "not really Locke."


Hi,
This must be your first season watching LOST.  For years it has frustrated LOST viewers that unlike real people, the LOSTies never compare notes or exchange information, no matter how significant or unusual an event occurs.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Not really anything significant to this discussion, but just wanted to say the way the scene with Jacob and Richard fighting on the beach was shot for some reason reminded me of the old Star Trek episode "Arena", with Kirk vs the Gorn.


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## Supfreak26 (Dec 12, 2003)

I'm starting to think that MIB caused the storm and pushed the ship inland so he could get to them first. He knew that Jacob was going to bring them anyways so why not get to them first and see if someone is qualified to kill Jacob for him. Tearing down the statue was a nice little bonus for him.

He found the weakness in Richard and used that to his advantage.

I'm a little confused about the end where Jacob confronts MIB about trying to kill him. He acted suprised as if it were the first time. Yet in the other episode where they are looking at the ship in the distance, MIB tells him he's going to kill him. So why be so suprised?


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Supfreak26 said:


> I'm a little confused about the end where Jacob confronts MIB about trying to kill him. He acted suprised as if it were the first time. Yet in the other episode where they are looking at the ship in the distance, MIB tells him he's going to kill him. So why be so suprised?


Well, he said he wanted to kill, not that he was going to kill him (I know, but subtle difference). And didn't Jacob say he'd have to figure out a loophole?

So, figuring that, maybe Jacob was surprised that MiB had figured out the loophole so quickly. Or, that he had finally figured out the loophole. Maybe Jacob had been resting on his laurels and now, suddenly, he's got to be on guard. He wasn't expecting it.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Alpinemaps said:


> Maybe Jacob had been resting on his laurels and now, suddenly, he's got to be on guard. He wasn't expecting it.


Well, Jacob really had the jump on Ricardo before he actually found Jacob (although he was getting very close).

Poor Richard ... he really doesn't put up much of a fight, does he?


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

philw1776 said:


> Hi,
> This must be your first season watching LOST.  For years it has frustrated LOST viewers that unlike real people, the LOSTies never compare notes or exchange information, no matter how significant or unusual an event occurs.


This!!!!!!!


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

getreal said:


> *unLocke was not LOCKED into Locke until AFTER Jacob had been killed.* He was still able to take the form of Alex because they had not gotten to Jacob yet.


Ah. Got it. Thanks.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

If MiB is locked into Locke now, who was the guy he appeared as before?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> If MiB is locked into Locke now, who was the guy he appeared as before?


Christian (Jack's dad)


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I mean the guy who was there with Jacob when the Black Rock came into view.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Philosofy said:


> I mean the guy who was there with Jacob when the Black Rock came into view.


They very specifically (and, likely, quite purposefully) did not give us his name. But as far as I remember, he told Ricardo that one of the things Jacob did to him was take his body away, or something to that effect. He also told Kate (?) that he used to be a regular person/man. So it's very likely that MIB is not his original shape, unless he was lying (which he does *a lot*).


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

What would you do if you were Smokey and had the ability to take the form of any of the former castaways who had passed away on this little tropical paradise?

I'd become Shannon and find a nice waterfall and frolic in it for hours.  
I think Locke or Arzt would be one of the last bodies I would pick.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I listened to Hurley's blog today, with Nester on it. Pretty good, but way long. They mentioned a couple things I hadn't heard before. Why didn't Locke have to give Ben the ceremonial dagger to kill Jacob? At least I don't think he did. Also among the Christ references, Richard hung between 2 men who died like the thieves on the cross.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

When Richard goes back to MiB and tells him he's with Jacob, MiB seems to understand. Could be lying, but he says "he can be very convincing." He seems sad and I wondered if maybe Jacob made some kind of deal with him in the beginning when MiB came there in which he promised to stay forever in exchange for something.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Nice that we have a similar theme already with Juliete wanting to leave but Ben not allowing it.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

This may well be my all time favorite LOST episode. Nestor Carbonell deserves an Emmy.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Cainebj said:


> This may well be my all time favorite LOST episode. Nestor Carbonell deserves an Emmy.


May be my second favorite. The Constant was my favorite.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Cainebj said:


> This may well be my all time favorite LOST episode. Nestor Carbonell deserves an Emmy.


Interesting Official Lost Podcast video with Nestor Carbonell is up, talking in general about his role as Richard.


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## dba62 (Sep 2, 2005)

betts4 said:


> This!!!!!!!


What does it mean when someone posts "This." as a reply to a previous post? Is it an acronym or just indicative of agreement - similar to "+1".


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dba62 said:


> What does it mean when someone posts "This." as a reply to a previous post? Is it an acronym or *just indicative of agreement - similar to "+1".*


This.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

I find it fascinating that so many have posted that this was their all-time favorite episode, or at least among their favorite episodes, because to me this is really one of the least "Lost-like" episodes of all time.

A Lost episode is typically characterized by jumping around -- often confusingly -- between times and places, disorienting the viewer and creating the opportunity for surprises, as well as the creation of mysteries where there were none before.

This episode featured linear storytelling for the vast majority of the episode, simply following Ricardo's tale from the 1800s from beginning to end, sandwiched in between brief scenes of modern-day Richard. The viewer could easily follow along without any disorientation or deep thought about "now did this happen before or after X?" And the episode largely only answered questions or confirmed answers to questions (Where did Richard come from? Why doesn't he age? What was his role with Jacob?), without creating any major new mysteries. Really, this episode was almost more characteristic of a typical TV series like Ghost Whisperer than Lost.

It's almost like people prefer Lost not to be so ... well, Losty.

(It kind of reminds me of the "That's My Dog" episode of Six Feet Under, in which David is taken for a ride by a hitchhiker, which is probably the least characteristic episode of that series, but is the favorite of many viewers.)


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Bananfish said:


> I find it fascinating that so many have posted that this was their all-time favorite episode, or at least among their favorite episodes, because to me this is really one of the least "Lost-like" episodes of all time.
> 
> A Lost episode is typically characterized by jumping around -- often confusingly -- between times and places, disorienting the viewer and creating the opportunity for surprises, as well as the creation of mysteries where there were none before.
> 
> ...


I think that it is precisely because of the complex nature of a typical LOST episode that the relative simplicity of Ab Aeterno felt so refreshing. Overall, though, I still prefer the regular more convoluted episodes.

By the way, that's an awesome episode of Six Feet Under. One of my favorites. If only David were Dexter, things could have played out very differently....


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I don't know, I think the reason Lost is so great is exactly because it doesn't have to fit a specific formula. They've managed to create such an interesting world that I don't personally even look for any type of formula for the show to have to be what I consider "Losty." The universe itself is what makes it "Losty." Seinfeld had to be "about nothing", X-Files had to have that "vibe", heck even Bill Cosby had to wear the crazy sweaters to make it The Cosby Show... but Lost, IMHO has managed to transcend having to stick to those types of formulas to keep its personality. Or maybe I've just gotten older and that kind of stuff doesn't matter as much to me anymore.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> (It kind of reminds me of the "That's My Dog" episode of Six Feet Under, in which David is taken for a ride by a hitchhiker, which is probably the least characteristic episode of that series, but is the favorite of many viewers.)





danterner said:


> ... that's an awesome episode of Six Feet Under. One of my favorites. If only David were Dexter, things could have played out very differently....


The finale of Six Feet Under was, IMHO, the least characteristic episode of the series in the way they explained every major character's ultimate story.

I hope it does not play out quite this way for LOST, although I look forward to the explanation of the flash-sideways and how each major character's story plays out.

I'm sure there will be many dissatisfied fans and lots of complaints (a la The Sopranos), but I am preparing myself to accept the vision of the show's writers/creators/visionaries.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> It's almost like people prefer Lost not to be so ... well, Losty.


I strongly disagree. My favorite Lost episodes are the ones that engage me, whether intellectually, emotionally, or otherwise. Heavy mythology episodes get me, but so do the ones where they stab me at the end. Walkabout? Yes, please. Lockedown? Yes, please. INTO THE LOOKING GLASS? Absolutely. Eternal Abs? Bring it on.

There is a lot that I like about Lost, and science fiction is just one of those. Drama is another.

Greg


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> A Lost episode is typically characterized by jumping around -- often confusingly -- between times and places, disorienting the viewer and creating the opportunity for surprises, as well as the creation of mysteries where there were none before.


I take pretty strong issue with this characterization of Lost. The jumping around has almost never confused or disoriented me; there have only been a couple of times, when they've launched a new type of "flash," when it hasn't been clear where they're jumping. As for the mysteries, while it's true that in the early years they piled them on, more recently they've been answering a lot more questions than they've raised. And Ab Aeterno is very much in that mold.

This is exactly what many of us has assumed will happen as we get very close to the end...the mysteries are being revealed. Long-time Losties like Ab Aeterno because it is exactly what we have been expecting all along...answers to many longstanding questions.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> It's almost like people prefer Lost not to be so ... well, Losty.


Not at all. It doesn't need to fit any particular formula, it just needs to be a great episode. I think my favorite ep is still Walkabout, and it followed the initial pattern. This ranks right up there with it, but it was done differently. I like that they just do what works best for the story at the time rather than force fit it into a template if it doesn't work better that way.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

For me not only did the episode detail a major recurring character's backstory and answer some Losty questions, but it also packed an emotional wallop, with stellar writing and acting. 

I was very satisfied and considering my TiVo froze last week when I was out of town and I ended up watching the episode on my iPhone... doubly riveting.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I take pretty strong issue with this characterization of Lost. The jumping around has almost never confused or disoriented me; there have only been a couple of times, when they've launched a new type of "flash," when it hasn't been clear where they're jumping.


Well, Rob, I'm not sure you (and many in this thread) are the ordinary case - you're like a television watching savant!

My wife, who has watched every episode, was in the top 3% of her class at a very good law school, and absolutely LOVED the show through the second season, is pretty much completely disoriented and confused right now - she has absolutely no idea what's going on and I'm sure wouldn't still be watching if the series wasn't ending soon. She is fatigued with trying to piece things together, to the point that she's basically given up. (And I'm sure there are plenty of others in the same boat.)

This episode offered her a bit of a respite, and she enjoyed it more than she has in a long time.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> As for the mysteries, while it's true that in the early years they piled them on, more recently they've been answering a lot more questions than they've raised. And Ab Aeterno is very much in that mold.
> 
> This is exactly what many of us has assumed will happen as we get very close to the end...the mysteries are being revealed. Long-time Losties like Ab Aeterno because it is exactly what we have been expecting all along...answers to many longstanding questions.


I don't really disagree with you.

But it seems to me that the aspect of this episode that seemed to resonate with viewers -- the Richard and Isabella love story -- was essentially superfluous to revealing answers to mysteries or advancing the storyline.

Good for the Lost crew that they know how to weave in those kinds of elements to spin a compelling yarn in the bigger scheme of where they're going, in a way that is satisfying to the long-term fan base. If there's one thing it proves, it's that the Lost folks know better than the rest of the industry how to provide compelling television ... like we didn't know that already.

(For the record, I'm not complaining - I fully enjoyed the episode.)


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

getreal said:


> The finale of Six Feet Under was, IMHO, the least characteristic episode of the series in the way they explained every major character's ultimate story.


Well, that's a series finale, and all the rules kind of go out the window for a series finale. And really, they didn't do that until the last 5 or 10 minutes in the montage at the end.



getreal said:


> I hope it does not play out quite this way for LOST, although I look forward to the explanation of the flash-sideways and how each major character's story plays out.


I have this hunch that they're going to tie most things up, and then the very last scene of the series will somehow convolute everything, just kind of to say "just because we explained almost all the mysteries, doesn't mean that this ain't Lost, brotha!"


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> Interesting Official Lost Podcast video with Nestor Carbonell is up, talking in general about his role as Richard.


Ya know, at the moment when MiB says the word "convincing", he looks AMAZINGLY like Frank Lapidus..


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I've been working on this theory the past couple of days, basically that MiB and Jacob were once brothers, perhaps twins, and that MiB murdered their parents on the island. How they got there I don't know, but perhaps MiB did it because he was one of the first victims of the sickness that is now controlling Claire and Sayid, which is basically just a way of being taken over by the darkness that Jacob described in this episode. Jacob was so upset by this that he managed to trap his brother somehow on the island and is holding him on the island for eternity as punishment.

The other version of this theory is basically the same, except that Jacob is an only child, became infected, killed his parents (hence the blood on the blond boy's hands, whom I believe to be Jacob), and somehow figured out a way to separate the darkness from himself (stole MiB's body?).

In both theories the parents are Adam and Eve in the caves.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Problem with your second theory is that Jacob can leave the island. If he can, why couldn't his "evil twin"?

And as for your first theory, I don't think Jacob's nemesis is *infected* with the sickness---I think he *is* the sickness...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

kemajor said:


> I like "It Only Ends Once".
> 
> - K


I'd call it "What will you watch on Tuesday nights now?"


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, I have two totally different theories about MiB's statement to Richard about Jacob.. Here's the transcript, then see below..



> RICHARD: How, how can I kill him with this, he's...black smoke.
> 
> MAN IN BLACK: No. I am.
> 
> ...


At first, without access to the transcript, I was thinking how cool it would be if MiB's original body, which he no longer had, was the shape of Taweret.








(I also now see that that's a she, a Goddess, so that idea seems less interesting than I thought when I started typing this).

The second theory is that maybe, just maybe, Man in Black's original body/shape was this:










and that when MiB says Jacob took his body, he really means he took his body..

..and if that were the case, would it be possible that Smokey was the one outside the island touching people?

Ok, I'm tired, and after having typed all that, I don't believe either of those. But I'll post it to make people laugh.

(reasons that's garbage: smokey's been trapped longer than he can remember, it'd be horribly confusing for the audience and be a cheap writing trick, etc).

But I'm still intrigued by the idea that Jacob took his body, and we don't know what that body looked like (it clearly wasn't the one we see when they're talking on the beach.. that body is complaining that his real body is gone). Just like we don't know his name.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

I'm assuming that you think the "man in black" was lying when he said that Jacob took Isabella, right?

Why then do you believe his claim that Jacob stole his body?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> I'm assuming that you think the "man in black" was lying when he said that Jacob took Isabella, right?
> 
> Why then do you believe his claim that Jacob stole his body?


Because he's an unconnected floating pile of smoke.. 

I'm not sure about Isabella, especially in the Black Rock with the sound of smokey outside.. Hallucination doesn't sit too well with me - not in the presence of all of the stuff we see on Lost.. The only thing that makes me believe hallucination is the lack of food/water.. but that's a pretty vivid hallucination, and perfectly timed (since smokey comes by exactly then, right after his hallucination predicted smokey would). I'm still confused that we saw her and heard smokey outside at the same time.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Amnesia said:


> And as for your first theory, I don't think Jacob's nemesis is *infected* with the sickness---I think he *is* the sickness...


Yeah I typed that all out on my iPod. I guess I forgot to add that both theories also can be amended to include that he/they are the source of the darkness and haven't been infected by it.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

jking said:


> I've been working on this theory the past couple of days, basically that MiB and Jacob were once brothers, perhaps twins, and that MiB murdered their parents on the island. How they got there I don't know, but perhaps MiB did it because he was one of the first victims of the sickness that is now controlling Claire and Sayid, which is basically just a way of being taken over by the darkness that Jacob described in this episode. Jacob was so upset by this that he managed to trap his brother somehow on the island and is holding him on the island for eternity as punishment.
> 
> The other version of this theory is basically the same, except that Jacob is an only child, became infected, killed his parents (hence the blood on the blond boy's hands, whom I believe to be Jacob), and somehow figured out a way to separate the darkness from himself (stole MiB's body?).
> 
> In both theories the parents are Adam and Eve in the caves.


When did we see a blonde boy with blood on his hands?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Locke saw him after meeting up with Sawyer (on the way to the cave?)


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Amnesia said:


> Locke saw him after meeting up with Sawyer (on the way to the cave?)


Actually when he had the blood on his hands was when Locke was talking to Alpert (before he had gone to get Sawyer), but yeah it was in that episode, The Substitute. He did see the boy again when he was taking Sawyer to the cave, and chased him down, but he didn't have the blood on his hands that time (I don't think...).


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Bananfish said:


> But it seems to me that the aspect of this episode that seemed to resonate with viewers -- the Richard and Isabella love story -- was essentially superfluous to revealing answers to mysteries or advancing the storyline.


For me the story itself, as good as it was, did not stand out that much from the rest. What stood out for me was the incredible job that Nestor did in playing Ricardo. Playing Richard never really gave Nestor a chance to let his acting ability shine. And in a way that was good because it allowed an even greater contrast to Ricardo and a shock, at least to me, about who Richard once was.

I think the biggest revelation for me was not any particular event in the episode, but rather the insight into who Richard was, and perhaps still is, at least in part. And learning about who characters are is a big part of Lost.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Amnesia said:


> I'm assuming that you think the "man in black" was lying when he said that Jacob took Isabella, right?


That does raise an interesting question. What if he was telling the truth about that, and Jacob took what we would consider to be Isabella's soul?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Congrats to all you creative LOST "theorists"; you're very imaginative. What I enjoy about LOST is that you can pretty much spin up a whole slew of hypothethes to explain what's happened. Sure, most are falsified by other posters here pointing out inconsistencies but each episode offers fertile ground for renewed speculation. 

I believe that the clever writers deliberately insert symbols, obscure references and misleading statements (fair, because they're usually from characters with a history of lying). Part of the 'game' is to see how far down multiple dead ends they can lead the viewing public before they take a new twist killing those scenarios. Some folks take offense at misleading references and symbols, thinking that the show will suddenly become a paen to Christianity or somesuch. But that's not what's happening. 

As to answers to the major LOST mysteries, I haven't a clue. I'm just along for the great E ticket ride. So far I have yet to be dissapointed by substantive plot discontinuity or character behavioural disconnects. May it always be so for LOST.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Hear hear!


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> ... The only thing that makes me believe hallucination is the lack of food/water.. but that's a pretty vivid hallucination, and perfectly timed (since smokey comes by exactly then, right after his hallucination predicted smokey would). I'm still confused that we saw her and heard smokey outside at the same time.


Starvation & dehydration can lead to hallucinations. And seeing Isabella on the Black Rock came AFTER Smokey killed everybody else (who hadn't otherwise been slain by Whitfield) in front of Ricardo's terrified & confused eyes. Smokey also analyzed Ricardo's thoughts/memories before he opened his eyes to find himself alone. Smokey picked up on the importance of Isabella to Ricardo and tried to use this to influence Ricardo to follow Smokey's orders.

I say that Isabella's appearance on the Black Rock was a Smokey-influenced hallucination. And if not a hallucination, then it was still an act put on by Smokey, just as he had done by taking the form of Alex in order to influence Ben to follow unLocke's commands.



jking said:


> Yeah I typed that all out on my iPod. I guess I forgot to add that both theories also can be amended to include that he/they are the source of the darkness and haven't been infected by it.


Smokey is the darkness which is the infection: Second-hand smokey! :up:


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> This.


+1 


Bananfish said:


> Well, Rob, I'm not sure you (and many in this thread) are the ordinary case - you're like a television watching savant!
> 
> My wife, who has watched every episode, was in the top 3% of her class at a very good law school, and absolutely LOVED the show through the second season, is pretty much completely disoriented and confused right now - she has absolutely no idea what's going on and I'm sure wouldn't still be watching if the series wasn't ending soon. She is fatigued with trying to piece things together, to the point that she's basically given up. (And I'm sure there are plenty of others in the same boat.)
> 
> This episode offered her a bit of a respite, and she enjoyed it more than she has in a long time.


I'm actually confused by those who say they're confused. 

I've thought for a long time that the show has done a very good job in lining up questions with the answers. What I think has been going on especially recently is some people don't deal with time travel very well, especially those not well-versed in science fiction. My wife and I didn't have a problem following the time-traveling rabbit down the hole, but that's probably because we're already familiar with it. I thought the show did a very good job with Faraday by using him as a cipher to explain how their time traveling works. But despite that, some people were still very confused. I remember some people in this forum were confused on how they could exist in 1977 as adults even though some of them were children in 1977. This is probably where it lost a lot of people.

Additionally, there might be such a thing as LOST fatigue. I have another friend who's been a die-hard fan from day one and right now she's just going through the motions, watching each episode because she knows it's ending. The show lost her last season for reasons I'm not entirely clear on, but from our conversations she just is tired of the plot and isn't sure on how everything works together. I've tried explaining to her, but I'm hoping the series finale will tie everything in and help the lost viewers understand what has really been going on.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

getreal said:


> I say that Isabella's appearance on the Black Rock was a Smokey-influenced hallucination. And if not a hallucination, then it was still an act put on by Smokey, just as he had done by taking the form of Alex in order to influence Ben to follow unLocke's commands.


Yeah but right there is a huge difference.. To me it's pretty clear that Alex WAS smokey, just as fakelocke IS smokey.. smokey took on her shape. She left, suddenly fakelocke is finally there with some rope. She was smokey.

But with Isabella, we saw Richard talking to her, and then right after she told Richard that smokey was coming, we hear smokey OUTSIDE, approaching......

Unless smokey can be in two places at once (split himself into two parts - one to be her and one to fly around making noise), we have a mystery. And while a potential solution for that mystery is that she might have been a hallucination, my point is that she seemed pretty vivid for a hallucination, and possessed information that Richard didn't (basically that smokey was coming and was about to be there _right then_).


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Yeah but right there is a huge difference.. To me it's pretty clear that Alex WAS smokey, just as fakelocke IS smokey.. smokey took on her shape. She left, suddenly fakelocke is finally there with some rope. She was smokey.
> 
> But with Isabella, we saw Richard talking to her, and then right after she told Richard that smokey was coming, we hear smokey OUTSIDE, approaching......
> 
> Unless smokey can be in two places at once (split himself into two parts - one to be her and one to fly around making noise), we have a mystery. And while a potential solution for that mystery is that she might have been a hallucination, my point is that she seemed pretty vivid for a hallucination, and possessed information that Richard didn't (basically that smokey was coming and was about to be there _right then_).


Or maybe MIB is a talented ventriloquist.
He's probably had a lot of time to practice.....


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## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

I think the young Jacob with the blood on his hands is an important clue as to who is good or bad and why they interact the way they do now. 

I just can't figure out why...


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

My theory: The young boy with blood on his hands was Jacob. Jacob and MIB are brothers. Jacob killed MIB when they were younger, effectively "stealing" MIB's body, and turning him into a ghost. MIB has been trying ever since to kill Jacob, but couldn't for some reason. Adam and Eve are their parents, and the big reveal will be when we find out their true names. They'll be people we either know from history or the show.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

I just wanted to share an intriguing comment I saw over at the New Yorker by a commenter named LGH.


> What has been so successful this season is how we, the viewer's, have been brought into the framework of the show. Carlton and Damon, the executive producers, are our Jacob and Smoke Monster and just like on the show, we are being forced to declare our alliances without completely understanding their motivations and the endgame's significance. Like Richard, many are angry and confused at the plot twist and concerned that it was all for nothing. Many, like Hurley, only need to be told to get in the taxi and have faith that it will work out. The question is moot, it is not whether the show works or does not work because it already has by creating the questions and choices in our own real lives that it does in the sideway television work of the show.


I think he nails it on the head perfectly and sums up most of the anxiety over this season. Myself? I'm Hurley. I'm going to wait til the end of the season to see everything.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> +1
> 
> I'm actually confused by those who say they're confused.
> 
> ...


Your friend is in the exact same boat as my wife.

The main thing is she's not at all a science fiction fan. Most science fiction, including Lost, takes a certain amount of mental effort to follow and understand. You have to be interested in mentally juggling the various pieces of the story. My wife's plenty smart, but television for her is a passive experience - she doesn't want to do that mental juggling.

The first few seasons weren't terribly science-fictiony, and my wife could enjoy the characters through flashbacks and their interaction on the island, and get mild thrills from the mysterious elements (why are there polar bears there? who are those people on the island? what the heck is that mysterious sound thingy?). And with only a few seasons of shows, she still had a handle on the complete story.

Since then, we've seen time travel, flash-forwards, parallel stories/universes, all kinds of superhuman powers (e.g., communicating with dead people, shape-shifting, resurrection from the dead, ghosts, etc). That's full blown science fiction, something my wife just doesn't care for.

Coupled with all the new characters (most recently, Ilana, Dogen, Jacob, MiB, etc.), character changes (Claire and Sayid now kind of crazy, Ben now passive, Richard now unconfident, etc.), various sets of people on the island to keep track of and understand (let's see, we have the Hostiles, the Others, the Dharma Initiative, the Widmore group on the other island, the FLocke group, the Jack group, etc.), it's just a tremendous mental toll to keep track of all the characters and the plot, especially when it's really now in a genre she's not interested in.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> Most science fiction, including Lost, takes a certain amount of mental effort to follow and understand.


And beyond that, it often takes a certain amount of training (i.e., by a lifetime of reading science fiction). Like the other guy said, a lot of people who aren't familiar with the concepts get very confused by time travel, even though to those of us who are familiar with science fiction and have dealt with time travel stories before, the presentation on Lost seems really basic and straight-forward. There are some extremely intelligent people whose minds break at even "easy" time travel stories, simply because they haven't learned the basics through prior experience.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

TheMerk said:


> My theory: The young boy with blood on his hands was Jacob. Jacob and MIB are brothers. Jacob killed MIB when they were younger, effectively "stealing" MIB's body, and turning him into a ghost. MIB has been trying ever since to kill Jacob, but couldn't for some reason. Adam and Eve are their parents, and the big reveal will be when we find out their true names. They'll be people we either know from history or the show.


I think any Jacob/MIB origin theory has to account for MIB's mother being crazy. The writers didn't have MIB tell Kate that for no reason - consequently, it pretty much has to be true, and I think it will be a key part of the ultimate Jacob/MIB story line.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And beyond that, it often takes a certain amount of training (i.e., by a lifetime of reading science fiction). Like the other guy said, a lot of people who aren't familiar with the concepts get very confused by time travel, even though to those of us who are familiar with science fiction and have dealt with time travel stories before, the presentation on Lost seems really basic and straight-forward. There are some extremely intelligent people whose minds break at even "easy" time travel stories, simply because they haven't learned the basics through prior experience.


Yes, I agree.

Though I'm not sure I'd completely agree that the time travel presentation on Lost is "basic and straight-forward." Sure, the time travel story thread itself was basic and straight-forward if you look at it in a vacuum. But there were so many other plot elements and mysteries weaved throughout the plot of the overall show during the time travel story that I wouldn't say the "presentation" of the time travel story was basic and straight-forward - the show keeps your mind so engaged in all the mysteries that even the easy pickens ain't always so easy.

E.g., there's still a debate in this forum as to when exactly time split for the current season, whether at the time of Juliette's nuclear blast or some earlier time, and we don't really know yet the purpose of the flash-sideways storylines (will the characters travel back in time from the flash-sideways one more time to do something?). To me, those things are still loose pieces of the time travel storyline that haven't been resolved yet.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> E.g., there's still a debate in this forum as to when exactly time split for the current season, whether at the time of Juliette's nuclear blast or some earlier time, and we don't really know yet the purpose of the flash-sideways storylines (will the characters travel back in time from the flash-sideways one more time to do something?). To me, those things are still loose pieces of the time travel storyline that haven't been resolved yet.


I don't think time was "split" at all. I think the sideways will end up being a result of something that hasn't happened yet.


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## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

or possibly, young Jacob's hands are bloody from killing his mother?


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think time was "split" at all. I think the sideways will end up being a result of something that hasn't happened yet.


I said it inarticulately - even wrongly - but I intended to capture your theory when I said "will the characters travel back in time from the flash-sideways one more time to do something?"

If I understand correctly, your theory is a "both timelines we're seeing this season occur, just not simultaneously" theory - your specific theory is that something will happen in the "current" island timeline (where Jacob and MIB are prominently featured) to cause the "sideways" storyline to occur, perhaps via time travel or a manipulation of past events. This links the two timelines we're seeing this season by having the "current" timeline cause/precede the "sideways" timeline.

It strikes me that the converse could also be true, with the "sideways" timeline causing/preceding the "current" timeline (or really, preceding the Season 1 timeline), once again perhaps via time travel or a manipulation of past events, and that's the "both timelines occur, just not simultaneously" theory reflected in my quote.

(It's apparent that under either theory, the characters would have to forget (or never have known) the things that happened in the other timeline, since in both timelines they are blissfully unaware of the other timeline.)


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> I said it inarticulately - even wrongly - but I intended to capture your theory when I said "will the characters travel back in time from the flash-sideways one more time to do something?"
> 
> If I understand correctly, your theory is a "both timelines we're seeing this season occur, just not simultaneously" theory - your specific theory is that something will happen in the "current" island timeline (where Jacob and MIB are prominently featured) to cause the "sideways" storyline to occur, perhaps via time travel or a manipulation of past events. This links the two timelines we're seeing this season by having the "current" timeline cause/precede the "sideways" timeline.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think it's going to be confirmed that the reason Flight 815 crashed on the Island was because Jacob had been manipulating the lives of several people to bring them there. Whatever is going to happen later this season on the Island will nullify the manipulative effects of Jacob and reset each of those characters lives to where they would have been without the involvement of Jacob. This results in Sawyer becoming a cop, not a con-man. It results in Jack having his appendix out when he was 7 and having a teenage son. It results in Nadia being married to Sayid's brother and Sayid continuing to pine for her. It results in Locke and Helen being happy together, and Locke apparently having a healthy relationship with his father. Etc., etc. etc.


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

Taweret is portrayed as a hippopotamus. A hippopotamus only has 4 toes. Woo Hoo - one mystery solved!

Richardus - Latin became the language of science primarily because it was one language that almost all educated people knew (at least in Europe) no matter which country they came from. It makes sense (to me) that an emissary for Jacob would take a nationally neutral name.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, I think it's going to be confirmed that the reason Flight 815 crashed on the Island was because Jacob had been manipulating the lives of several people to bring them there. Whatever is going to happen later this season on the Island will nullify the manipulative effects of Jacob and reset each of those characters lives to where they would have been without the involvement of Jacob. This results in Sawyer becoming a cop, not a con-man. It results in Jack having his appendix out when he was 7 and having a teenage son. It results in Nadia being married to Sayid's brother and Sayid continuing to pine for her. It results in Locke and Helen being happy together, and Locke apparently having a healthy relationship with his father. Etc., etc. etc.


And under my alternate theory, something like this would happen:

After having their lives run their course without the effects of Jacob (as in the sideways timeline), Jacob (or perhaps MIB) seeks them out (individually or perhaps he gathers them together) and tells them that if they agree, he can go back and touch them at an earlier part of their lives, causing their lives to diverge from where they did, and further causing them to crash on an island which keeps evil bottled up thus preventing it from destroying the world, but which has been sunk to the bottom of the ocean and is therefore not protecting the world now - if they make it through the hardships they encounter, they will have an opportunity to keep the island from sinking and save humanity (perhaps by taking over for him as the island guard over evil). They agree, and the course of history is changed with the "sideways" timeline coming to a halt, causing the events that result in the entire Lost timeline, starting with Season 1 through the "current" timeline.

The final scene: They are back at the culmination of the "current" timeline, and have to make one more decision, to side with Jacob or MIB. If they side with the right one, all is well, but if they side with the wrong one, evil reigns over the world. They make their decision ... and .... CUT.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> The final scene: They have to make one more decision, to side with Jacob or MIB. If they side with the right one, all is well, but if they side with the wrong one, evil reigns over the world. They make their decision ... and .... CUT.


Best onion rings in the state.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I think the producers have said that they are going to end it with definitive answers that won't leave people questioning You may or may not like the answers, but you'll know them.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> I think the producers have said that they are going to end it with definitive answers that won't leave people questioning You may or may not like the answers, but you'll know them.


I don't think my scenario is in conflict with that .... you would get definitive answers to all the Lost mysteries .... just not what the ultimate outcome is. But fine, so add a scene right before CUT with:

(1) fire and brimstone enveloping the world, or

(2) Kate and Jack kissing, Sawyer and (surprise!) Juliet kissing, Sayid and the woman he loves kissing, Jin and Sun kissing, Claire and (surprise again!) Charlie kissing, Desmond and Penny kissing, Miles and Arzt kissing, and Hurley and well ... Hurley just standing there chomping into a supersized Big Mac, while doves and porpoises frolic under an idyllic beach sunset.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

dtle said:


> Another inconsistency that I've not seen anyone brought up. The Canary Island and Portsmouth are both in the Atlantic Ocean, while the Oceanic flight crashed into the Pacific. So does this mean the island was moved once before?


Believe it or not, it was faster for ships to follow the clipper route down south than it was to travel across the Atlantic then trek across land. It was generally faster to go around Africa, especially if Australia was on the agenda, and it would be easy to get to the West Coast of America. I didn't see it as inconsistent at all, makes perfect sense given the times, and we already know that the Black Rock plied its trade in Siam and the Far East.



stevieleej said:


> I've been confused by the actions of MIB.
> 
> For example, how does he determine who to evaluate (Locke, Ben, Eko, & Richard) verses who to quickly kill without any evaluation (815 pilot, Black Rock crew,etc)? Is it his job to give certain people the once over, determine if their repentant, then let them live or kill them? As seen, by letting someone live, there is no guarantee that person will work for him in the future.
> 
> He's needing people to help him, why kill so many without first trying to sway them to his side.


If the flashing means evaluation, remember that the flashing happened to Juliet and Kate once too. Right after their epic mudfight, if memory serves. What it means, I still have no idea though we've seen lots of good theories.



milo99 said:


> so this is interesting. IF the island sinking means the cork is removed and MIB can leave, and the flash sideways is life w/ MIB released, wellll.... is anybody's life worse off in the sideways? i believe they all had better lives, except maybe Kate. So in this scenario, IS MiB pure evil? Or the opposite? This could be an indication that perhaps he's not evil, he's just pissed that Jacob has been keeping him on here for all eternity.


I wonder if we'll see everyone die in a huge cataclysm, caused by MIB, rendering moot who had a better life and who didn't in the sideways.



kemajor said:


> I like "It Only Ends Once".


Then the penultimate episode should be called "Just Progress".


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> ..


Wrong thread.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

aindik said:


> Wrong thread.


Yeah, as soon as I realized it, I deleted it. Oops. I thought I had entered that message yesterday. I had, but not in this thread.

My allergies are killing me, and the antihistamines make me a little slow.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> Additionally, there might be such a thing as LOST fatigue. I have another friend who's been a die-hard fan from day one and right now she's just going through the motions, watching each episode because she knows it's ending. The show lost her last season for reasons I'm not entirely clear on, but from our conversations she just is tired of the plot and isn't sure on how everything works together. I've tried explaining to her, but I'm hoping the series finale will tie everything in and help the lost viewers understand what has really been going on.





Bananfish said:


> Your friend is in the exact same boat as my wife.
> 
> The main thing is she's not at all a science fiction fan. Most science fiction, including Lost, takes a certain amount of mental effort to follow and understand. You have to be interested in mentally juggling the various pieces of the story. My wife's plenty smart, but television for her is a passive experience - she doesn't want to do that mental juggling.
> 
> ...


I think some combination of these ideas has probably set in far more than people (esp us LOST fanatics) realize. I have 6 very close friends who watch LOST; four of them fall into this category, including my wife. Having invested so many years, and knowing the end is nigh, they have no problem sticking it out. If this was an ongoing series, I fear they would have bailed. I know my wife would have.

Point in case: My dad watches LOST. We used to talk every week about the show, going over that week's episode, pointing out little tidbits to each other. Now he pretty much says the same thing every week, "I have no idea what's going on, I just watch the show."

The smartest thing they ever did was pick an end date.



jlb said:


> Just listened to Lindelcuse on their most recent podcast....some interesting info....spoilerized just in case....
> 
> Name of the finale:
> 
> ...


Then the penultimate episode should be called


Spoiler



The Beginning


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

astrohip said:


> Then the penultimate episode should be called
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Or the other way around!


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or the other way around!


I'm pretty sure it only ends once.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tewcewl said:


> I'm pretty sure it only ends once.


But why on Earth does the end of _this _show of all shows have to happen after the beginning?!?


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> The second theory is that maybe, just maybe, Man in Black's original body/shape was ... [Jacob's, as we've only known him] ... and that when MiB says Jacob took his body, he really means he took his body..
> 
> ... and if that were the case, would it be possible that Smokey was the one outside the island touching people?


If that were the case, then Jacob has had MiB's original form for at least 140 years. The earliest he was known to be touching the current gang of Oceanic survivors was when Kate and Sawyer were children, so about 20 years ago. Everybody else (Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Sun, Jin, Locke) was touched much more recently as adults, and Jacob looked the same as he did at least 140 years ago when he touched Ricardus. Therefore it would NOT have been Smokey (who only wants OFF of the island at all costs) who was off-island touching people, only to return to the island to try to use the same people to help him get off of the island.



Bananfish said:


> And under my alternate theory, something like this would happen:
> _
> [yadda-yadda-yadda] _... and .... CUT.


Uhhh ... how do I put this gently? Don't quit your day job.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Uh, why was this repeated tonight? Why no new _Lost_? I thought they were playing the rest of the series back-to-back.


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## Mike Lang (Nov 17, 1999)

http://www.tvsquad.com/2010/04/26/ask-tv-squad-whats-up-with-the-lost-rerun/


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Two things about the re-airing tonight.

Is it my imagination, or was this episode shortened tonight? I would swear that the scene where Richard confronts the doctor previously included more dialog. Specifically, I thought Richard and the doctor discussed how far away Richard had traveled, and/or how long it took him to get there. Also, it seems like at the beginning of the episode, Hurley has a conversation with an imaginary person in Spanish (Isabella), which I missed tonight.

Another thing I am wondering after re-watching this. Most of us have assumed that only the MiB can turn into the smoke monster. But tonight, the pop up version clearly stated that it wasn't Isabella who visited Richard on the crashed ship, but it was the MiB assuming her form. We then see Richard and Isabella hear the smoke monster "sound", and Richard urges "Isabella" to run. Before Isabella can climb up the stairs and out of the ship, we more clearly hear the smoke monster sound, presumably something gets her, and she yells. So how could Isabella be the smoke monster, with Richard in the ship, and we are led to believe that the smoke monster was outside making the noise at the same time? Is it possible that both Jacob and MiB can morph into smoke? Another factor leading me to that idea: Season 4, when Ben summons the monster to attack Keamy and the gang who are surrounding the Otherton housing (I'm currently re-watching the series and I'm up to that point). Is it possible that Ben summoned "Jacob smokey" to attack Keamy, and NOT "MiB smokey"?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> Is it possible that both Jacob and MiB can morph into smoke? Another factor leading me to that idea: Season 4, when Ben summons the monster to attack Keamy and the gang who are surrounding the Otherton housing (I'm currently re-watching the series and I'm up to that point). Is it possible that Ben summoned "Jacob smokey" to attack Keamy, and NOT "MiB smokey"?


I really really REALLY doubt it. I just see no reason why there would be two Smokeys, and it would trash everything they've been developing about the MiB/Jacob relationship.

I don't think Ben "summoned" Smokey so much as just stopped keeping it out.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Uh, why was this repeated tonight? Why no new _Lost_? I thought they were playing the rest of the series back-to-back.


Yeah I'd like to know that too. If I'm not mistaken they made a big deal of running them back-to-back to justify making us wait until friggin February for the season to start.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Grr. Didn't know it was a rerun tonight... bummer.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> Two things about the re-airing tonight.
> 
> Is it my imagination, or was this episode shortened tonight? I would swear that the scene where Richard confronts the doctor previously included more dialog. Specifically, I thought Richard and the doctor discussed how far away Richard had traveled, and/or how long it took him to get there. Also, it seems like at the beginning of the episode, Hurley has a conversation with an imaginary person in Spanish (Isabella), which I missed tonight.


IIRC, the original episode ran four or five minutes longer than normal.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

appleye1 said:


> Yeah I'd like to know that too. If I'm not mistaken they made a big deal of running them back-to-back to justify making us wait until friggin February for the season to start.


I'm guessing that after the season premiere was scheduled to begin on Groundhog Day, ABC made the decision to have the finale on a Sunday, which messed up the airing schedule. Instead of ending the series on Thursday, May 20, which would be the final Thursday of the TV season, ABC decided to air the finale on Sunday, May 23, which inserted an extra date into the schedule. The only ways to fix this would have been to (1) add an extra episode to the order; (2) split the finale up onto two different nights of one hour each, rather than a two-hour finale; or (3) insert a rerun week into the schedule. Seems to me that option 3 is by far the easiest and cheapest way to deal with the problem.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm guessing that after the season premiere was scheduled to begin on Groundhog Day, ABC made the decision to have the finale on a Sunday, which messed up the airing schedule. Instead of ending the series on Thursday, May 20, which would be the final Thursday of the TV season, ABC decided to air the finale on Sunday, May 23, which inserted an extra date into the schedule. The only ways to fix this would have been to (1) add an extra episode to the order; (2) split the finale up onto two different nights of one hour each, rather than a two-hour finale; or (3) insert a rerun week into the schedule. Seems to me that option 3 is by far the easiest and cheapest way to deal with the problem.


LOST is on Tuesday, not Thursday.

I think they wanted to have as many hours of LOST-related stuff as they could during the May Sweeps (4/29 - 5/26). Sunday gives them four hours of prime time in which to do that, rather than 3.

Also, if they were going to air the finale on Tuesday 5/25 instead of Sunday 5/23, it would conflict with the American Idol finale.

But they didn't need to do a rerun. They could have just started the season a week later, on 2/9. The 2/2 premiere wasn't even during the February Sweeps. They didn't start until 2/4.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I'm confused - was there a new episode of Lost last night? I went to watch it at around 9:55 (eastern) and expected to see it at the top of my list since it should have still been recording. That's when I found out that there was a repeat of Ab Aeterno. Actually, I knew that already, but I assumed that it would be at 8:00, and the new episode at 9:00 as usual. So at that point I figured that there was no new episode this week.

So why is there a thread for 'Lost - "Unrequited" - 4/27/2010'?. I don't want to open the thread if it was for a new episode last night that I somehow missed. Was it on at a different time?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> I'm confused - was there a new episode of Lost last night? I went to watch it at around 9:55 (eastern) and expected to see it at the top of my list since it should have still been recording. That's when I found out that there was a repeat of Ab Aeterno. Actually, I knew that already, but I assumed that it would be at 8:00, and the new episode at 9:00 as usual. So at that point I figured that there was no new episode this week.
> 
> So why is there a thread for 'Lost - "Unrequited" - 4/27/2010'?. I don't want to open the thread if it was for a new episode last night that I somehow missed. *Was it on at a different time?*


No. Same time, different universe. It's explained (tongue-in-cheek) in the first post.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Thanks. I guess if I had known for sure that there wasn't a new episode, I would have gone ahead and opened it. Still enjoyed it even knowing ahead of time what was going on. Thanks


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> LOST is on Tuesday, not Thursday.
> 
> I think they wanted to have as many hours of LOST-related stuff as they could during the May Sweeps (4/29 - 5/26). Sunday gives them four hours of prime time in which to do that, rather than 3.
> 
> ...


Ah, you're right with the Tuesday vs. Thursday thing. Brainfart. But many shows air their finales before the final week of sweeps, and I'm sure the AI finale being on the 25th meant that ABC always intended to air the finale before that. Add in the additional hour of primetime on Sunday and it makes sense that they'd shift it there.

As for the 2/2 premiere, I still think the wanted some kind of Groundhog Day tie in with the alternate universes that were introduced that day. Remember what a big deal it was going to be when the State of the Union was potentially going to pre-empt the LOST season premiere?


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## z28freak86 (Apr 25, 2010)

all i can say is, bout time they did someone on Richard.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

TiVotion said:


> Two things about the re-airing tonight.
> 
> Is it my imagination, or was this episode shortened tonight? I would swear that the scene where Richard confronts the doctor previously included more dialog. Specifically, I thought Richard and the doctor discussed how far away Richard had traveled, and/or how long it took him to get there. Also, it seems like at the beginning of the episode, Hurley has a conversation with an imaginary person in Spanish (Isabella), which I missed tonight.





JYoung said:


> IIRC, the original episode ran four or five minutes longer than normal.


I agree. I also thought a missing scene was right after Smokey killed the ship's crew, it returned to analyze Ricardus' thoughts (complete with flashes of light) before suddenly disappearing just before Ricardus opened his eyes again. That was where it was able to pick up Isabella's necklace and capture her spirit when materializing as her later. But that scene didn't air last night.

But it was also confusing about the idea that Smokey WAS Isabella on the ship AND also outside making noises. Unless MiB is also a ventriloquist, and preoccupies his idle time on the island by making coconuts appear to talk to the pineapples.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

getreal said:


> I agree. I also thought a missing scene was right after Smokey killed the ship's crew, it returned to analyze Ricardus' thoughts (complete with flashes of light) before suddenly disappearing just before Ricardus opened his eyes again. That was where it was able to pick up Isabella's necklace and capture her spirit when materializing as her later. But that scene didn't air last night.
> 
> But it was also confusing about the idea that Smokey WAS Isabella on the ship AND also outside making noises. Unless MiB is also a ventriloquist, and preoccupies his idle time on the island by making coconuts appear to talk to the pineapples.


It was like watching a syndicated Lost, with parts taken out for commercials. Especially annoying if you didn't see the original, like me, cause my Tivo had a malfunction. (And reading these forums so I know I'm missing something.) But I actually didn't mind a rerun since it was the one episode that I missed ... like it was planned or something.

Although a MiB backstory involving coconuts would be amusing, I wonder if he has some type of astral projection capability. Or, he just knows how to throw that tugboat/train warning voice from hell of his like you said.


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

After seeing the discussion here about edits to this episode's rerun, I briefly went back and reviewed the two on my Tivo. I may have missed it, but it seemed to me that they edited out the part near the beginning where Hurley is talking to Richard's wife in Spanish and Jack approaches mistakenly asking what Jacob is saying to him. In the "enhanced" rerun, it omits this scene and jumps right from Richard storming off after telling them they're in hell to the flashback beginning the telling of Richard's history.

Unless I just missed it and it's still there, that's kind of a big edit, since it makes Hurley's sudden appearance at the end make sense.


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