# I'm going to send my TiVo back



## scgf

I've just about had it with the dire SD picture quality on my new TiVo. I have decided I am going to ask VM to replace it with a Samsung V+ box. The TiVo was installed a week ago, on the 26th Feb - I assume I am within my rights to cancel at this stage?

Anyone else feeling the same?


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## Steve5424

No problems here SD looks perfectly fine for me.

I think some people are expecting too much from an SD broadcast or the settings on their TVs need adjusted.


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## jonphil

I can't compare with the V+ box, but the SD picture looks better than my previous SkyHD box SD picture quality?


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## Digital Fanatic

scgf said:


> I've just about had it with the dire SD picture quality on my new TiVo. I have decided I am going to ask VM to replace it with a Samsung V+ box. The TiVo was installed a week ago, on the 26th Feb - I assume I am within my rights to cancel at this stage?
> 
> Anyone else feeling the same?


you've got a tech booked to look at this haven't you?


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## mikerr

Odd - haven't noticed any difference in PQ between my original V+ HD (Scientific Altlanta, still says TVDrive on the box) and TiVo...

I'd check what the Tivo is outputting - some TVs actually look better on 720p than 1080i !


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## cwaring

scgf said:


> I assume I am within my rights to cancel at this stage?


Yes. I believe you have 28 days in which you can cancel without penalty.


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## scgf

mikerr said:


> Odd - haven't noticed any difference in PQ between my original V+ HD (Scientific Altlanta, still says TVDrive on the box) and TiVo...
> 
> I'd check what the Tivo is outputting - some TVs actually look better on 720p than 1080i !


I wonder why some people are saying they can see no difference between previous VM boxes and the TiVo yet others are saying they see a big difference? Perhaps some TVs are good enough to show the differences and others aren't?

What I am seeing now is SD pictures which look exactly like what my old Sky HD box produced so I am fairly confident what I am seeing is quite normal, it's just that the Samsung V+ box made SD look so much better.


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## qwiki

scgf said:


> I wonder why some people are saying they can see no difference between previous VM boxes and the TiVo yet others are saying they see a big difference?


Maybe their previous STB was using a different input on the TV and that input had been modified, while the new input has not?

For me, coming from an S1 on scart to using the new Tivo on HDMI, I had to make considerable changes to the TV settings for the new input before it looked right. Most TV's from new, default to a 'vivid' mode which is too bright and colourful in my opinion.


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## jonphil

qwiki said:


> Maybe their previous STB was using a different input on the TV and that input had been modified, while the new input has not?
> 
> For me, coming from an S1 on scart to using the new Tivo on HDMI, I had to make considerable changes to the TV settings for the new input before it looked right. Most TV's from new, default to a 'vivid' mode which is too bright and colourful in my opinion.


I would agree with that, my Samsung TV used to store the settings per connection and I had to dig around for guides on the Internet for hints on how to tweek the settings to get a good picture as out of the box Samsung's tend to have the worse settings and horrible pictures.

The Sharp I have now has hardly been changed from the default settings and the picture has been spot on from day one.

If you have bad SD pictures I would suggest looking on the net for any hints on changing some of the many settings in the TV. It's not as simple as just the brightness and contrast anymore


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## ColinYounger

scgf - I think mikerr might have the solution there for you, assuming you have an HD set. 

If I get my TiVo to output something lower than 1080i, it looks markedly worse. Make sure you're getting it to output 720 or 1080. Also make sure you're using HDMI not SCART - again, the quality is different. (YMMV due to TV differences).


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## scgf

Thanks for your help, guys. I am an old hand at setting up AV equipment. As I have said elsewhere, I always turn off as much digital processing as possible and ensure there is no over-sharpening. I set up the TV using a DVD called DVD Video Essentials so I know it is calibrated correctly. I have set the output of my TiVo to 1080i. I have three other HD sources - BluRay, Apple TV and a French satellite receiver for watching French HD channels. All these devices give me a nice picture whether showing SD or HD material, as did the Samsung V+ box.

I use a very high quality Octavo HDMI switch box to route all sources through to my plasma panel's single HDMI input so am not about to add all manner of digital processing to try and make the TiVo picture look good at the expense of my other three sources. To make any changes to my setup this is all I can do - add digital processing because currently there is none.

My plasma panel is a few years old now and is very discerning - I have seen a great many newer sets which display SD material very poorly. On these sets SD material has a plasticity which often masks detail. I doubt whether these sets could show the difference between good and not so good SD pictures.

No amount of academic argument is going to change what I see with my own eyes: Samsung V+ = very nice SD images, even on the lower bandwidth channels, TiVo = dire SD images on all SD channels, low bandwidth channels even worse.

I can't justify £150 + £3 a month for this.


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## ColinYounger

I didn't know you were an AV pro - apologies for the egg sucking advice.

Call VM and get an engineer out. The beauty of 'renting' is that they will fix stuff.


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## Tony Hoyle

It does sound broken then.. Remember the Tivo is upscaling anyway so no set is showing SD currently.

My set is DVE calibrated (plus I have a meter somewhere so I could get the black levels right but haven't done that in a while).. so whilst not professionally calibrated I doubt the picture could be considered 'poor' by normal standards and I don't find anything wrong with the Tivo SD at all.


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## Karnak

Quite a different setup entirely for me compared to before. Bought my first shiny flat/HD TV especially for new TiVo. The new combination looks so much better that my old S1/CRT, even the SD channels.

I of course have no idea what I'm talking about in determining whether it's really good or not


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## °Keir°

Again SD is fine here,

Maybe take some photos to share with us if it's that bad.


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## Tavis75

I thought the picture quality on the TiVo was actually a slight step up from my old V+HD, though it can be hard to make a fair comparison due to not having the boxes side by side and of course the vast differences in the quality from different channels.

I have the TiVo set to output 520p,720p and 1080i (if I remember correctly), with 520i and 1080p turned off (1080p is disabled anyway). My amp then upscales everything to 1080p and passes it to my projector, which is native 1080 panel.

Only thing that I've seen a problem with quality wise has been fast moving SD stuff on the on demand service (specifically "Lets Dance for Comic Relief" on catchup).


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## scgf

A VM technician is visiting this evening and if he says, as expected, that all is as it should be, I have an appointment booked for a swap - and I'll have a Samsung V+ box back again.

There are too many people complaining about the quality of SD for it to be an isolated case. We are human and have analog senses so I would expect there to be a range of views on this. For me the picture quality on SD is a step down from my previous box, and no amount of discussion is going to change that.


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## Digital Fanatic

scgf said:


> A VM technician is visiting this evening and if he says, as expected, that all is as it should be, I have an appointment booked for a swap - and I'll have a Samsung V+ box back again.
> 
> There are too many people complaining about the quality of SD for it to be an isolated case. We are human and have analog senses so I would expect there to be a range of views on this. For me the picture quality on SD is a step down from my previous box, and no amount of discussion is going to change that.


Let us know how you get on.


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## tdenson

It's strange how people's perception of PQ varies. I am probably the other end of the scale to scgf. I have a good 42" HD set (Sharp) and yet I very rarely ever watch anything in HD. I just forget the option is there. I don't think I've watched one program in HD in the 3 weeks I've had my new Tivo. As far as I am concerned the picture is fine and just from habit I tend to watch and record the SD channels. What however was far more important to me in wanting the new Tivo was the UI. Personally, I think the OP is mad - but each to his own


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## TCM2007

I'm sure paying for an HD TV and an HD TV service then watching in SD would be considered "mad" by some!


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## scgf

tdenson said:


> Personally, I think the OP is mad - but each to his own


Lol! That's me .

I had a 1st generation TiVo and loved it because it was the best PVR out there. At the time, season passes/series links weren't available on other devices.

Now I have a TiVo and I am somewhat underwhelmed. IMHO the UI is a mess - I hate it! The only extra things it can do that I am interested in is record suggestions and do wishlists. I am so used to using Digiguide to search for programmes and check what is coming up that I now prefer to do it this way.

Searching for actors, genres etc. is not something I am too bothered about - I use Apple TV for films anyway so actor searches are more relevant on this platform.

IMO PVRs like the V+ have almost caught up with TiVo.

I would still prefer TiVo, but with a poorer picture quality I really don't feel happy with my choice.


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## tdenson

TCM2007 said:


> I'm sure paying for an HD TV and an HD TV service then watching in SD would be considered "mad" by some!


Absolutely. But I bought an HD TV years ago just because by nature I am an early adopter. And as I say the only reason I have Tivo is the UI and nothing to do with either the PQ or availability of content (Our viewing is 95% channels 1-5). 
It may just be that my vision is not 20/20 (I occasionally use reading glasses) but in my opinion the whole HD thing is overplayed by the industry. The difference in enjoyment between watching, say, a drama or comedy, is minuscule between SD and HD - if I was trying to be quantitative I might suggest it adds 1% enjoyment factor (for me). But the ability to navigate recordings efficiently and have nice logical menus adds perhaps 50%.
I was in the States last week and myself and my wife were watching Corrie on my 13" laptop (ITV catchup via PureVPN). Now we could have waited until we got home and watched it in HD on 42" but that would have added very little to the experience (now I know there are plenty of you out there that would say nothing could make Corrie enjoyable, but then as I say each to his own ...).


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## Tavis75

Out of interest, in what way do you find the picture quality bad? Noise, blockiness, smearing or other compression related artifacts? Or is it more colour balance, brightness etc? Or something else?

Also, you mention that you've set the output of your TiVo to 1080i, have you tried turning on the other formats as well, so that your TV does the upscaling of standard definition channels rather than the TiVo. Currently I would guess that you'll have the TiVo upscaling SD to 1080i, then your TV possible re-scaling it again. Even if it's not currently getting scaled twice, you may well find that the TV does a better job of the upscaling anyway.

As I mentioned, on my TiVo I set it to output all the resolutions that are currently broadcast (576i, 720p and 1080i), which I assume means it will output all video in its native format. Then the amp (or in your case, TV) handles the upscaling.


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## scgf

Digital Fanatic said:


> Let us know how you get on.


The VM Technician has just called. He checked the signal and found it spot on. There was nothing he could do to improve the picture. Just as I thought, lol!

I now have another appointment booked for two weeks time when I will have the TiVo replaced with a Samsung V+ box.

Maybe at some point in the future when the hardware is improved I will try TiVo again.


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## daz100

The picture is worse on mine as I have stated before. ITV2 is dire I have noticed but the HD is good.


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## scgf

I've just spoken to VM Customer Relations and they have brought forward my Samsung V+ swap to this Saturday. Can't wait to get a decent picture again!


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## Andy C

Get the engineer to view an SD channel with the Tivo and then again after the V+ is fitted and ask his opinion. 

I'm the same in that I can calibrate AV equipment and I am a bit of a picture quality snob and the first thing I noticed when the Tivo was booted for the first time was how much softer SD was. And this is on a flagship Panny 42" plasma.

Whether I force the TiVo to output only 576p or 720p the picture stays the same, including the SD menus, 1080i makes it slightly softer still (and the text on SD menus), and a bit false looking.

I guess it also depends on peoples screen size, anything 32" or less you'll not notice


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## Brangdon

tdenson said:


> The difference in enjoyment between watching, say, a drama or comedy, is minuscule between SD and HD - if I was trying to be quantitative I might suggest it adds 1% enjoyment factor (for me).


For me it's one of the two major advantages of VM over s1.

Obviously HD quality varies from programme to programme. Human Planet is very good, as you'd expect. What I hadn't expected is the difference it makes being able to see subtle differences in focus. For example, watching a show like 10 O'Clock Live, I can now see that the presenters are pin-sharp while the audience are slightly out of focus in the background. It gives a greater sense of depth. With SD, it's all equally blurred. So I am finding that comedy programmes are improved too.

SD seems better to me, but that's comparing it with s1. The s1 signal had been digitised by VM, compressed, sent to the set-top box, decompressed, converted to analogue, sent to the old TiVo, digitised, compressed again, decompressed, converted to analogue again, sent to the TV, digitised and upscaled. So I'm not surprised the new TiVo does better, being digital end-to-end, with no lossy compression other than what VM do at the source. However, I had been surprised at how much better my plasma HD TV was able to make it look, compared to my old CRT, when I upgraded to it a year ago.


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## Tavis75

Andy C said:


> I guess it also depends on peoples screen size, anything 32" or less you'll not notice


My screen is 92" (Panasonic PT-AE4000 Projector with a Denon 4311 Receiver doing the upscaling) and I still believe the SD picture looks better from the TiVo than my old V+HD box, though as I said, I'm not able to do a side-by-side comparison.

Maybe some of the V+ boxes were better than others, as I believe there are a few different versions available from different manufacturers.

This thread has reminded me that I haven't actually got round to calibrating the screen using Video Essentials yet, must do that this weekend!


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## Digital Fanatic

scgf said:


> The VM Technician has just called. He checked the signal and found it spot on. There was nothing he could do to improve the picture. Just as I thought, lol!
> 
> I now have another appointment booked for two weeks time when I will have the TiVo replaced with a Samsung V+ box.
> 
> Maybe at some point in the future when the hardware is improved I will try TiVo again.


thanks for updating. Sorry it didn't work out for you.


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## Digital Fanatic

Tavis75 said:


> My screen is 92" (Panasonic PT-AE4000 Projector with a Denon 4311 Receiver doing the upscaling) and I still believe the SD picture looks better from the TiVo than my old V+HD box, though as I said, I'm not able to do a side-by-side comparison.
> 
> Maybe some of the V+ boxes were better than others, as I believe there are a few different versions available from different manufacturers.
> 
> This thread has reminded me that I haven't actually got round to calibrating the screen using Video Essentials yet, must do that this weekend!


Mine TiVo SD is the same as my SA V+HD, which I have relocated to the bedroom tv on a HD tv.

The TiVo box is a Cisco made box, who own SA.


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## ptruman

I've not got any issues with the new TiVo SD quality.

In fact, it's way better that I had, as my S1 TiVo was on the composite SCART socket on the V+ box, so all my whites were botched (I know I could use RGB, but I didn't want TiVo S1 to see the V+ menus when I used them).


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## cyril

TCM2007 said:


> I'm sure paying for an HD TV and an HD TV service then watching in SD would be considered "mad" by some!


This annoys me for some reason.

Especially when the screen is an expensive one.

It's like driving a Ferrari at a max speed of 1 mph, using an original Picasso as a tablecloth, ordering only beans on toast from a Michelin starred restaurant, getting a 3000quid MacBookPro just to play solitaire or buying an iphone 4 and only using it to make phone calls!


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## cwaring

And if a channel you watch isn't in HD yet?


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## cyril

cwaring said:


> And if a channel you watch isn't in HD yet?


If it is not a one-off I wait for it to be shown in HD, assuming it was filmed or recorded in HD.

I think I have only watched one Non-news SD programme on my VM TiVo so far.
Now 95% of my viewing Excluding news is proper HD.


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## mikerr

Content and convenience beats quality for me most of the time;
I'd rather watch iplayer than wait a week for the HD showing.

A bit like having skyHD and a TiVo S1, then using the TiVo


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## tdenson

mikerr said:


> Content and convenience beats quality for me most of the time;
> I'd rather watch iplayer than wait a week for the HD showing.
> 
> A bit like having skyHD and a TiVo S1, then using the TiVo


Exactly


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## Brangdon

Tavis75 said:


> As I mentioned, on my TiVo I set it to output all the resolutions that are currently broadcast (576i, 720p and 1080i), which I assume means it will output all video in its native format.


Not in my experience. I have enabled 576p and 1080i, and when I watch SD live or SD recordings TiVo still usually outputs 1080i. I investigated further and this is what I found:

If I watch an SD recording, I can force it to 576p by pressing *Up*, and I think that looks better. The *Up* key doesn't work on live TV, though, and if I watch HD content the format reverts to 1080i and doesn't change back even if I go back to SD content. (I only just discovered the *Up* key's function, so I've added it to the Hints and Tips thread.)

So the only ways to reliably get 576p are:

Disable 1080i and everything else, thus ruining HD content.
Check that 576p is active whenever you switch to an SD channel:
For SD recordings, you can use *Up* directly (wait for the initial info banner to clear first or it doesn't work).
For live SD, first watch an SD recording and adjust the output as above, then switch to the live channel, being careful not to hit any HD content on the way.

So it's a pain to get 576p, as it requires continual vigilance rather than set-and-forget, to the point where I suspect many people are getting 1080i without wanting or realising it. I wouldn't be surprised if some installers/engineers don't understand the convoluted nuances either.

I'm going on about 576p because for me that gives the best results on SD content. 720p is noticeably worse (presumably it gets upscaled twice, once by TiVo and once by the TV). My TV is slightly better at upscaling 576p than TiVo is.

I think it's likely that this rigmarole to get 576p is not by design, and may be sorted out in the next update. After which it will work as you expect: if you enable just 576p and 1080i, that SD content will automatically use 576p and HS content will automatically use 1080i. And all will be right with the world.



scgf said:


> The VM Technician has just called. He checked the signal and found it spot on. There was nothing he could do to improve the picture. Just as I thought, lol!
> 
> I now have another appointment booked for two weeks time when I will have the TiVo replaced with a Samsung V+ box.


Is anything I wrote above, new to you? Is it possible that the V+ box was outputting SD content in its native format and your TV was doing the upscaling? Have you been able to force TiVo to output in 576p, and verified on the TV that the TV is truly receiving that format? If so, did the quality improve to what you are used to?

If so, then maybe you should wait for the next update (probably this month) before rejecting TiVo, as it is possible your problem will be sorted then.

(If the above doesn't help, then it'd mean your TV was no better at upscaling than TiVo, and getting pass-though to work won't help. It's still possible that a future update will improve TiVo's upscaling, but I think it's less likely.)


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## scgf

Brangdon said:


> Is anything I wrote above, new to you? Is it possible that the V+ box was outputting SD content in its native format and your TV was doing the upscaling? Have you been able to force TiVo to output in 576p, and verified on the TV that the TV is truly receiving that format? If so, did the quality improve to what you are used to?


Hi, thanks for your comments.

I have tried setting different resolutions and saw very little difference between, say, 576p and 1080i. I was aware of the 'up arrow' way of setting the output res of recorded programmes. I believe my plasma panel will simply display whatever is sent to it at the resolution it is sent - I have no way of forcing the TV to display at 1080i, for example. It is all down to the connected box to upscale. It was clear that TiVo was doing a poor job.

I have a Samsung V+ box now and am very pleased. The SD picture is better and even HD looks sharper to me. The UI is nice and simple.

I may revisit TiVo at a later stage when I have confirmation that the SD ouput quality is better.

Enjoy your TiVos guys!


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## cwaring

scgf said:


> I may revisit TiVo at a later stage when I have confirmation that the SD ouput quality is better.


Then I don't suppose you'll ever get one a plenty of people on here have told you that the SD output _is_ better.

Of course it's subjective but I don't see how it could be improved any unless... what... they substantially up the broadcast bitrate or something? I don't know.

My point being, that if this is "as good as it gets" and a lot of people seem to be happy with it, I don't hold out much hope for it 'improving' anytime soon


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## passingbat

cwaring said:


> Then I don't suppose you'll ever get one a plenty of people on here have told you that the SD output _is_ better.
> 
> Of course it's subjective but I don't see how it could be improved any unless... what... they substantially up the broadcast bitrate or something? I don't know.
> 
> My point being, that if this is "as good as it gets" and a lot of people seem to be happy with it, I don't hold out much hope for it 'improving' anytime soon


Presumably it was the chip in the V+ that made it so good at upcaling SD?

If this is absent from tivo, or they use a different one, then that may account for the difference.

As Digital Fanatic says in an earlier post, that the tivo box is made by the parent company of the SA box, is it possible that they will incorporate the SA chip in future tivo production boes, and thus improove SD PQ?


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## TCM2007

Carl - sorry, that's nonsense. A possible cause of the problem has been identified above. 

Most people who have said SD is an improvement have upgraded from analogue devices and don't have a comparison point. 

BTW, if you being purist dont you want 576i not 576p?


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## cwaring

passingbat said:


> Presumably it was the chip in the V+ that made it so good at upcaling SD?
> 
> If this is absent from tivo, or they use a different one, then that may account for the difference.
> 
> As Digital Fanatic says in an earlier post, that the tivo box is made by the parent company of the SA box, is it possible that they will incorporate the SA chip in future tivo production boes, and thus improove SD PQ?


All fair points.



TCM2007 said:


> Carl - sorry, that's nonsense.


That's not usualy for me, really is it? 



> Most people who have said SD is an improvement have upgraded from analogue devices and don't have a comparison point.


I was thinking that as I typed 



> BTW, if you being purist dont you want 576i not 576p?


I don't honestly know.

My post wasn't meant as a dig at the OP. Merely speculation.


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## scgf

It does depend a lot on where you're coming from. You see I find most SD channels unacceptable in terms of picture quality, but the V+ box seemed to make them more acceptable. What I was seeing on the TiVo was no different to what I see from Sky HD boxes. I am sure it isn't a fault as such, but the TiVo really isn't doing such a good job at upscaling the picture.

As an ex-TiVo evangelist, who registered on this forum at least a year before you, Carl, I was just bitterly disappointed when I had my VM TiVo installed. I had been so excited about getting it but was so bitterly disappointed with the messy interface and the poor picture quality. I had spent £150 + £3 a month for the privilege too!

I can imagine how differently I might have felt had I upgraded from a S1 TiVo to the VM version without experiencing other PVRs along the way.

Personally I don't feel that TiVo is offering *that* much over and above other PVRs now - and I think Sky's response that most people don't need these extra feature is about right.

A V+ box and Apple TV, now that *is* a rather nice combination!


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## scgf

Just to confirm that I have my good SD picture quality back again. I am so happy! It was a dark couple of weeks with TiVo. I am so pleased to be able to enjoy TV again. The V+ menus are so fast too!


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## TCM2007

It's amazing the difference in upscaling makes. Trouble is, there's no way to tell in advance which combination of chipsets give the best results, especially as "best" can be subjective.

I always found that Sky+HD was poor, and the same SD channels upscaled on the PC's graphics chip were much better. The SD channels out put natively and upscaled by the TV were in between. Before I moved to PC, I was on the verge of investing in a separate upsacaliong unit to try to improve the Sky box.


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## scgf

Indeed. I always believed in 'rubbish in = rubbish out' but the V+ box does perform some magic that TiVo doesn't. I am currently watching ITV1+1 (for my sins) and the picture is actually most acceptable. This certainly wans't the case with the TiVo. The TiVo picture was fuzzy, had poor colours and lacked detail.


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## mikerr

scgf said:


> Personally I don't feel that TiVo is offering that much over and above other PVRs now


I wasn't aware there were many other PVRs with wishlists ? 
(wishlists are a core TiVo feature for me)

Yes, other PVRs all now have livetv buffering and series links, but that's all - most don't even have an EPG search. 
Most people are happy with basic recording because thats all they know 

Without wishlists, IMO you fall back to watching SPs and liveTV (yeugh!) - wishlists bring a targeted variety of perceived shows.



scgf said:


> Just to confirm that I have my good SD picture quality back again. I am so happy! It was a dark couple of weeks with TiVo. I am so pleased to be able to enjoy TV again. The V+ menus are so fast too!


I still have a SA V+ I'd NEVER describe the V+ as fast,
often 3 second delays on key presses - maybe I should get a samsung?

The TiVo while not being as snappy as the s1 (which I find amazing 10 years on), doesn't leave you waiting like the v+ often does.
Plus the V+ is unusable at midnight.



TCM2007 said:


> I always found that Sky+HD was poor, and the same SD channels upscaled on the PC's graphics chip were much better.


Not exactly the same source;The same channels are different resolution on terrestrial freeview than sky...
E.g. On Freeview ITV1 uses 704x576 resolution on SKY it uses 544x576

My TV (panasonic 37" LCD) probably softens the picture somewhat, as I couldn't tell the difference just now when I put v+ and TiVo both on it ( was rearranging av stuff)


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## kmusgrave

scgf said:


> It does depend a lot on where you're coming from. You see I find most SD channels unacceptable in terms of picture quality, but the V+ box seemed to make them more acceptable. What I was seeing on the TiVo was no different to what I see from Sky HD boxes. I am sure it isn't a fault as such, but the TiVo really isn't doing such a good job at upscaling the picture.
> 
> As an ex-TiVo evangelist, who registered on this forum at least a year before you, Carl, I was just bitterly disappointed when I had my VM TiVo installed. I had been so excited about getting it but was so bitterly disappointed with the messy interface and the poor picture quality. I had spent £150 + £3 a month for the privilege too!
> 
> I can imagine how differently I might have felt had I upgraded from a S1 TiVo to the VM version without experiencing other PVRs along the way.
> 
> Personally I don't feel that TiVo is offering *that* much over and above other PVRs now - and I think Sky's response that most people don't need these extra feature is about right.


I have to agree 100% with this. The picture quality of SD on the V+ was far better. I still have the V+ so I can compare.

I, too was (and still am) extremely disappointed with the new Tivo. It is nowhere near as good as the the old S1 (of which I had 3, daisychained together in the past). I dug out my old S1 a few weeks ago, in anticipation of getting my new Tivo. I have plugged into the AV2 socket on my TV and have it fed from the new Tivo (the installer did it without prompting), although I don't use it to actually record new stuff, just to watch the stuff I already have recorded on it. But I also use it to compare the guide data between it and the new Tivo. The data is so much better on the S1! The wishlists work correctly and pick up all the programmes they should whereas the new on has lots missing. How can this be? Why is the data different? That is totally inexcusable. The whole point of Tivo is that it needs excellent-quality guide data.

Also I've had to reboot it several times as it either gets stuck showing the red doughnut or showing no picture at all. I've had to reboot it twice today already, and once yesterday.

I really do hope the next software update fixes many of these problems, as it certainly isn't a premium quality product at the moment.


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## scgf

Thanks, kmusgrave. It is good to hear other people who are seeing what I am seeing. The evangelist brigade just won't have anything said against the TiVo!

mikerr - I have the Samsung V+ and most menus are pretty instant, apart from catchup which goes as fast as the VM network allows.

Since parting company with my S1 TiVo I have become used to using the web version of Digiguide to search for programmes. Each week I also go through the Digiguide and BBC recommended programmes and this, along with my personal favourites provides me with enough programming for the week. I prefer doing it this way - sitting in front of the TV with my laptop. I must admit it would be nice to do what we could do with the S1 and set recordings directly from Digiguide - but the new TiVo is not quite the same beast and if it gives me a poorer picture then I don't care what else it does!

I have EyeTV connected to my Mac which does wishlists (EyeTV calls them 'Smart Guides) and if I am on the lookout for something I use that - it makes it very easy to edit the recording and burn it to DVD or add it to Apple TV.

For me, I have instinctively moved to diversify my viewing sources. I don't necessarily feel the one box solution is as attractive as it once was.


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## cwaring

scgf said:


> Thanks, kmusgrave. It is good to hear other people who are seeing what I am seeing.


And some people aren't.



> The evangelist brigade just won't have anything said against the TiVo!


Load of rubbish, but some things - like PQ - are, of course, subjective.


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## scgf

cwaring said:


> And some people aren't.
> Load of rubbish, but some things - like PQ - are, of course, subjective.


Lol! Evangelists will corner a dissenter and make him/her feel that there is no issue and that he/she is simply wrong. I am encouraged by hearing of others who have come to similar conclusions. If several people see what I see then there is enough of a problem for it to be real.

Carl, I have read what you have written over the past few years and it has always been a great pleasure. I have had the utmost respect for what you have to say. Recently, however, something odd is happening - as if someone has hijacked your identity . . .

There are evangelists in most forums - and I frequent a great number - who try to trample on dissenters while adjusting their blinkers. It is not a good thing to see. You cannot legitimately say 'load of rubbish' to what I feel.


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## VirginMediaPhil

I'm being put off getting TiVo more and more every day now. This seems like a major downgrade. No reminders, crap SD PQ, bugs left right and centre, 8 reboots and more per day - the list goes on.


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## cwaring

scgf said:


> Lol! Evangelists will corner a dissenter and make him/her feel that there is no issue and that he/she is simply wrong.


There are things wrong with Tivo. Look at the "bugs" thread. So to say that "The evangelist brigade just won't have anything said against the TiVo!" is demonstratably incorrect.

Also, if you (subjectively) find that the PQ is not as good as you would like it, who can say that you're wrong?

Therefore the accusation doesn't make _any_ sense.



> I am encouraged by hearing of others who have come to similar conclusions.


Wow! Some share your opinion and some don't. Hardly 'breaking news', is it?!



> If several people see what I see then there is enough of a problem for it to be real.


Where did anyone say it wasn't "real"? 



> Carl, I have read what you have written over the past few years and it has always been a great pleasure. I have had the utmost respect for what you have to say.


Thank you for that.



> Recently, however, something odd is happening - as if someone has hijacked your identity . . .


I can confirm that I am still me 



> You cannot legitimately say 'load of rubbish' to what I feel.


And I don't think I ever have.



VirginMediaPhil said:


> No reminders...


Not required. Rule #1: Record Everything.



> crap SD PQ


Subjective.



> bugs left right and centre


Wow! Bugs in what is basically a computer. Stop the presses!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but they are being worked on and a release is imminent 



> 8 reboots and more per day...


Only had the one so far here.


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## scgf

cwaring said:


> Wow! Some share your opinion and some don't. Hardly 'breaking news', is it?!


Carl, you really are an arrogant ar*e!


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## cwaring

Sorry. Was meant more as sarcasm than arrogance


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## Brangdon

VirginMediaPhil said:


> No reminders,


That's at most a "nice to have". Just record everything and set an alarm on your watch or mobile phone to remind you to watch it.



> crap SD PQ,


"Crap" is a bit harsh. Scgf says that his Samsung V+ was better, but he also says (in #44) that his TiVo is as good as Sky HD boxes he's seen. Some people with other brands of V+ box seem to be saying TiVO is about the same. I think my TV up-scales slightly better, but the difference is minor enough that I might be imagining it. (I also find I watch relatively little SD nowadays; the major channels all do HD.)

It sounds to me as though TiVo SD quality is at industry norms, not the best available, but not crap or especially bad either.



> bugs left right and centre,


Agreed.



> 8 reboots and more per day


Most of us aren't getting that. I am getting a few reboots per week. Some people seem to have pathological machines or network problems. It's bad for them, but they aren't typical.

Of course, any reboots is too many, and more than we are used to. VM should have been more up-front about the quality they were giving us. We're expecting an update "mid-March", hopefully very soon now, and that's what will really tell the tale. (Especially as we may not get another update until September.)


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## cwaring

Brangdon said:


> "Crap" is a bit harsh. Scgf says that his Samsung V+ was better, but he also says (in #44) that his TiVo is as good as Sky HD boxes he's seen. Some people with other brands of V+ box seem to be saying TiVO is about the same. I think my TV up-scales slightly better, but the difference is minor enough that I might be imagining it. (I also find I watch relatively little SD nowadays; the major channels all do HD.)
> 
> It sounds to me as though TiVo SD quality is at industry norms, not the best available, but not crap or especially bad either.


Careful. You're coming dangerously close to "Tivo evangelism" there, according to certain posters


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## tdenson

It's funny how we all see this radically differently. I don't think I have actually watched a program yet in HD the month I have had Tivo. That is simply because I am so used to watching on the standard channels and old habits die hard. I only ever watch TV from Season Passes and just happen to have set them all up when I got it on SD channels. Just haven't been that motivated subsequently to work out how I should really set it up since I find SD quality good enough, a better PQ would not significantly enhance my enjoyment.
However, talk about the little skip back after a fast forward and I get excited. That one little feature for me makes Tivo worth every penny - and it's not even mentioned anywhere in VM literature.


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## VirginMediaPhil

Erm, I was only quoting other people's experiences... I don't have one yet. I was saying that it was putting me off getting TiVo.


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## TCM2007

mikerr said:


> Without wishlists, IMO you fall back to watching SPs and liveTV (yeugh!) - wishlists bring a targeted variety of perceived
> 
> Not exactly the same source;The same channels are different resolution on terrestrial freeview than sky...
> E.g. On Freeview ITV1 uses 704x576 resolution on SKY it uses 544x576


Different strokes; I don't have any wish lists set up, never found them useful.

EPG search on the other hand is essential.

Some sat resolutions are different, some are the same.


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## TCM2007

cwaring said:


> Sorry. Was meant more as sarcasm than arrogance


It's possible to be sarcastic AND arrogant!


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## cwaring

Well I certainly aren't, and don't know anyone that is; the latter I mean. I can certainly be sarcastic, but only for the humour


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## TCM2007

I think the judgement of whether you are or are not arrogant isn't yours to make. It would be somewhat arrogant to do so.


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## cwaring

Well I know for a fact that I am superior to no-one and therefore cannot, be definition, be arrogant


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## kmusgrave

cwaring said:


> And some people aren't.
> 
> Load of rubbish, but some things - like PQ - are, of course, subjective.


Of course they are subjective. But When the PQ of the Tivo is worse than the V+ (which, as many have said does very good upscaling) that is a backward step. By your own admission you are watching on an small old CRT, so maybe that's why you don't notice the difference?


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## cwaring

kmusgrave said:


> But When the PQ of the Tivo* is worse than *the V+ ....


But you've just agreed that it's subjective, therefore so is your comment that...


> ...that is a backward step.





> By your own admission you are watching on an small old CRT...


Well a 32" 2003 model 



> ...so maybe that's why you don't notice the difference?


I would have thought that was more than a little obvious, myself


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## Digital Fanatic

kmusgrave said:


> Of course they are subjective. But When the PQ of the Tivo is worse than the V+ (which, as many have said does very good upscaling) that is a backward step. By your own admission you are watching on an small old CRT, so maybe that's why you don't notice the difference?


Mine is on a 42" Sony Bravia and the pic is fine


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## cwaring

Apparently, you're wrong.


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## TCM2007

If picture quality is subjective, than the £000s of TV picture testing equipment they've got downstairs must be a figment of my imagination.

Whether it bothers you is subjective; in many cases people simply cannot see differences which are very visible to others and measurable with equipment.


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## tdenson

TCM2007 said:


> If picture quality is subjective,
> 
> in many cases people simply cannot see differences which are very visible to others and measurable with equipment.


Surely the fact that "many people cannot see differences" means it is subjective


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## MrHoggie

well read most of the posts on here and the only trouble i had with picture quality, was the auto contrast on my philips tv. LG also had the same problem but lG and Philips are the same company so switching off a few auto levelling controls cured most. turning sharpness down helped. TIVO v V+ tivo wins hands down every time on picture quality.
The new Iplayer picture quality is 100% better, when using the app on tivo.
Well happy so far, but until the updates its not worth moaning. as most knew it wasn't ready yet.


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## Digital Fanatic

cwaring said:


> Apparently, you're wrong.




I'm really fussy about picture quality, so I'm right  I've also still got my SA V+HD upstairs and the pic is the same.


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## TCM2007

tdenson said:


> Surely the fact that "many people cannot see differences" means it is subjective


Their perceptions are subjective; the performance of the TV and STB is not. You can measure all kinds of characteristics.

If a car whizzes past you at 76mph, then another one at 80mph, it is not "subjective" that one is faster than the other, even if you couldn't tell the difference.


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## tdenson

TCM2007 said:


> Their perceptions are subjective; the performance of the TV and STB is not. You can measure all kinds of characteristics.
> 
> If a car whizzes past you at 76mph, then another one at 80mph, it is not "subjective" that one is faster than the other, even if you couldn't tell the difference.


You're getting very semantic but at the end of the day it is perception that matters. The fact that I can't distinguish between a Tivo picture and a V+ picture is all that matters to me.


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## TCM2007

True. I get annoyed when people say that they can't tell the difference therefore no difference exists(not that you were). There are folks in here who record stuff in Basic and watch it on an ancient telly, then hold forth on why HD is a waste of time!


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## simbeav

Well, having had my new Tivo for a few days now, I'm coming to the conclusion that either there are some faulty Tivos out there or interaction between the Tivo and some TVs isn't too good. 
I've still got my V+ attached to the same Philips as the Tivo and switching between the two shows no difference. I'm not blind to differences as my Azbox is better than both (although that may be due to better quality broadcasts from some foreign broadcasters).

On the weekend C4 changed the time of Time Team which resulted in Series 1 Tivo, V+ and Virgin Tivo all missing the first 25 minutes or so ! For some strange reason the HD version is no longer on catchup so I had to watch the SD version on the Virgin Tivo and was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the picture. In the past I have found SD catchup not that good. May be that Virgin / C4 have improved the quality, though, as I haven't checked the same broadcast on the V+


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## TCM2007

Ah, I wondered why I'd lost the first 5 mins of Time Team.


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