# Software Update 3.5-01-1-011



## TDiGuy (Sep 25, 2003)

My Sony SAT-T60 DirecTiVo just downloaded and installed a new software update ver. 3.5-01-1-011. What does this update include? What does it fix etc.?

The only bummer is that I have to reinstall my CacheCard Software.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=297060

Below is a high-level summary of the changes in 3.5.0:

 The menu tree has changed. "My Preferences" has been removed; most of the options are now under "Settings"
 Faster Guide and quicker searches (optimal search performance occurs after 24 hours of Power On)
 After receiving the new software some settings will revert to factory default, including:
o Favorites Channels  settings will be deleted (list will be empty)
o Channel You Receive  list will reset and all channels will be checked
o Channel Banner  time out will be set to "Display banner normally"
o Spending Limit  settings will be set to $10

The fast guide and searches (and the favorites and channel you receive) most likely means they switch to the 6.x database format.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

TDiGuy said:


> What does this update include?


You're the one with the update, why don't you tell us!


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## TDiGuy (Sep 25, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> You're the one with the update, why don't you tell us!


LOL, The guide seems to update much quicker now. The menu's are reorganized. Aside from faster operation, I don't see any difference. Was hoping that someone on here with knowledge would let us know what is going on under the hood.

PS. The guide updates as fast now with the new software as it did with the old software and the CacheCard running. Right now I do not have the CacheCard running because I need to reinstall the software.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

TDiGuy said:


> PS. The guide updates as fast now with the new software as it did with the old software and the CacheCard running. Right now I do not have the CacheCard running because I need to reinstall the software.


I'm not sure if the cache card is going to work with the new software since they have changed the database layout. You may want to check on http://www.silicondust.com/forum to make sure it will work.


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

The skip button now jumps to the bottom of the Now Playing list, and then to the top at the next press of the button. Just like on the hr10-250.


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

Also, on one of my dsr6000r boxes, the NPL had gotten _very_ slow to appear, it's 12 pages long. With this update, it now appears _very_ quickly. A very big improvement, for me, in that particular area. Thanks, D*.


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

Time to get my PPP connection ready.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Does it do folders?


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

Nope, no folders.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Too bad! A faster guide will make it worth it anyway. As long as other bugs don't creep in.


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## grecorj (Feb 6, 2002)

Well, let's just keep in mind that a reboot will make a DTivo respond faster -- and anyone who's gotten the software has had a recent reboot; IMHO, it remains to be seen if this "upgrade" really speeds up things over time. The most promising thing is that they pushed out an upgrade at all, regardless of the purpose.


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## gpg (Oct 3, 2000)

Both of my series ones (a Phillips and a Hughes) got the update. They didn't even bother to update the logos for Starz channels.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

I asked this on the other thread. Does anyone know if the kernel in this update supports LBA48.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

So does this mean that the Series 1 DirecTivos will have folders now?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

BrettStah said:


> So does this mean that the Series 1 DirecTivos will have folders now?


Nope, allready answered in post 9 and 10.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> Nope, allready answered in post 9 and 10.


Doh! That was stupid...


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## marrone (Oct 11, 2001)

I wondered if the reboot last night had anything to do with it. My wife was complaining this morning that the whole list was jumbled up (had to re-do the S-0-R-T).

Makes me wonder why they didn't bother to stick in the folders, if they redid the database.

-Mike


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

marrone said:


> Makes me wonder why they didn't bother to stick in the folders, if they redid the database.


Probably won't until they are ready to do the HR10-250's too - the outcry would be quite large.


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

rminsk said:


> I asked this on the other thread. Does anyone know if the kernel in this update supports LBA48.


I don't think so. Both my Tivo's have drives larger than 137 Gb and my wife is now pissed that one of our Tivo's won't boot. It gets to the "Almost there" screen and hangs. Now I have to learn how to upgrade the kernel since I cheated and used the PTV Upgrade CD.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

Blackfoot said:


> I don't think so. Both my Tivo's have drives larger than 137 Gb


The DirecTiVo will not automatically expand to use the new space. You would have to add new partitons and expand the space. To do that you have to remove the drive from the TiVo...

Has anyone looked at the kernel yet to see if it support LBA48?


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

rminsk said:


> ...
> 
> Has anyone looked at the kernel yet to see if it support LBA48?


Watch this thread in the Tivo Upgrade Center Forum ....
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=297372


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## rhuntington3 (May 1, 2001)

I think my DirecTivo has already download 3.5 but since I upgrade my hard drive to a 160Gb drive back in Feb, I'm going to unhook my phone line for the time being. I'd like to keep my system booting normally.


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

rminsk said:


> The DirecTiVo will not automatically expand to use the new space. You would have to add new partitons and expand the space. To do that you have to remove the drive from the TiVo...
> 
> Has anyone looked at the kernel yet to see if it support LBA48?


I'm a little confused now. Without knowing if the LBA48 support is supported, my 300 Gb drive won't work right. But you mention that I need to expand my space. Can you explain this a bit more and how would I go about doing this?


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

rhuntington3 said:


> I think my DirecTivo has already download 3.5 but since I upgrade my hard drive to a 160Gb drive back in Feb, I'm going to unhook my phone line for the time being. I'd like to keep my system booting normally.


Why do you not want the upgrade? Having 160GB drive in it should not matter.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

BrettStah said:


> So does this mean that the Series 1 DirecTivos will have folders now?


You may in the future if they keep moving up the line. And IMHO if the series 1 are broughtr up to 6.2 that makes me hopeful they might go past 6.2 (IF ONLY)  
:up: :down: :up:     : I am going through all the range of emotions!


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## rhuntington3 (May 1, 2001)

rminsk said:


> Why do you not want the upgrade? Having 160GB drive in it should not matter.


If the kernel doesn't support drives over 127Gb, my DirecTivo will not successfully reboot when it reboots following the activation of the new SW and thus I will not be able to watch any of my recorded shows or record new ones.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

rhuntington3 said:


> If the kernel doesn't support drives over 127Gb, my DirecTivo will not successfully reboot when it reboots following the activation of the new SW and thus I will not be able to watch any of my recorded shows or record new ones.


I guess by the smiley that you are running a hacked kernel that has LBA48 support.


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## rhuntington3 (May 1, 2001)

rminsk said:


> I guess by the smiley that you are running a hacked kernel that has LBA48 support.


Since I have a 160Gb drive in it, yup. My original drive had been whining very loudly for over a year and I finally decided it was time to replace it before it died.


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

rhuntington3 said:


> If the kernel doesn't support drives over 127Gb, my DirecTivo will not successfully reboot when it reboots following the activation of the new SW and thus I will not be able to watch any of my recorded shows or record new ones.


Exactly what I thought, but here is the kicker. I have 2 SAT T-60's. One with a 300 Gb drive and the other with a 200 Gb drive.

My 300 Gb drive boots up, displays the Powering up message for about 15 - 20 seconds and then goes to the Almost there message. At this point is where the cache card drivers should load, but obviously don't because of the upgrade. I can hear the drive crunching away for a while and then silence. Still stuck at the almost there screen.

So I ran upstairs to check on my Tivo with the 200 Gb drive. It was at Live TV. I hit the Tivo button to check if the unit was pending a restart and I see the Tivo dude start swinging around. Long story short this unit is running the 3.5 software. So now I don't know what my problem is. Could it be because my upstairs tivo is pretty empty I won't see any issues until I get more than 137 Gb of data on the drive? (I recently upgraded it from a 40 Gb to a 200 Gb within the last 3 weeks.) My downstairs Tivo is nearly 50% full which would put it over the 137 Gb limit. Or could it be that it is trying to load the cache card drivers and they are set to read only? Maybe while I was upgrading the drivers at some time I upgraded the files in both boot partitions?

I know there are more questions than answers so I wanted to get this out there in case anyone had an idea on why one works and the other does not.


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## rhuntington3 (May 1, 2001)

The kernel in the new SW doesn't know how to handle large drives so thus it cannot read anything reliable off large drives. You "upstairs" Tivo may have the same reboot issue as the other one.


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## altan (Jan 5, 2003)

No sugarcoating it... my T60 says 

"Updating Database. This will take a long time."



... Altan


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

rhuntington3 said:


> The kernel in the new SW doesn't know how to handle large drives so thus it cannot read anything reliable off large drives. You "upstairs" Tivo may have the same reboot issue as the other one.


I believe it has already rebooted. The menu tree has changed and the software shows 3.5. I'm hesitant to reboot it again since it is the only working tivo at the moment.


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

I forced a restart of my upstairs unit and it came up just great. I can play all of the previously recorded shows (non CSO encryption) plus anything that was recorded today. I am not sure if the TivoApp has been modified, nor the kernel. What gets me is that my downstairs unit will still not boot. I think it sees the drive otherwise it wouldn't get to the part of the sysinit file that calls the splash screen up. Is there anything else I can look at? I have removed my cache card. Cleaned the connectors on the small ribbon cable for the front LED and IR receiver. I even tried changing the jumper from master to cable select. I'm at a loss here and am wondering if I should call into DTV for support. Any ideas?


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## jsharper (Jan 28, 2002)

If you were using an lba48 kernel with a drive or drives bigger than 137, then I don't think it should be any surprise that you are having problems running 3.5 with its stock non-lba48 kernel...


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

jsharper said:


> If you were using an lba48 kernel with a drive or drives bigger than 137, then I don't think it should be any surprise that you are having problems running 3.5 with its stock non-lba48 kernel...


I agree, but my drive is 200 Gb and it is working fine. It is the 300 Gb one that is not. It has been confirmed that the LBA48 support is not in the 3.5 software. So now I'm really interested in how my 200 Gb drive unit is working.


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## rhuntington3 (May 1, 2001)

Maybe your 200Gb drive is actually partioned less than the 137Gb limit and thus it works.


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

rhuntington3 said:


> Maybe your 200Gb drive is actually partioned less than the 137Gb limit and thus it works.


Thought of that but I used the same InstantCake CD to build both drives. Is there an easy way to check this?


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## ESPalmer (Jan 16, 2002)

One One SAT-60 and one DSR 6000 I never saw the updating DB message. On my son's I did. The two which did not get the update are slowwwww. An example is when you hit guide to be announced is visible for a second, then changes to the program title. The Now playing list stutters as it fills in, had the update for one day now, hoping this improves as it majorly sucks in its current form.

Later,


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## dgstivo (Apr 17, 2001)

Blackfoot said:


> Thought of that but I used the same InstantCake CD to build both drives. Is there an easy way to check this?


On the System Information screen of your 200 GB unit, how many hours of recording time does it show? 1 GB is a little less than an hour (my 120 GB unit shows up to 108 hours). This will give you a rough idea of the hard drive size that the unit "sees".


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

dgstivo said:


> On the System Information screen of your 200 GB unit, how many hours of recording time does it show? 1 GB is a little less than an hour (my 120 GB unit shows up to 108 hours). This will give you a rough idea of the hard drive size that the unit "sees".


185 hours. I thought of that this morning and realized that it must be seeing the entire drive otherwise I should have closer to 120 hours.


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## jsharper (Jan 28, 2002)

My guess is that your 200gig unit is still messed up, even though it happens to boot ok. Is your drive full? Can you view ALL of your shows? I wouldn't trust it the way it is now. It thinks it can still access all 200gig, but it won't run into errors unless/until it actually tries accessing a part of the drive above 137. So if all of your shows happen to be sitting under 137 right now, they may be fine.


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

jsharper said:


> My guess is that your 200gig unit is still messed up, even though it happens to boot ok. Is your drive full? Can you view ALL of your shows? I wouldn't trust it the way it is now. It thinks it can still access all 200gig, but it won't run into errors unless/until it actually tries accessing a part of the drive above 137. So if all of your shows happen to be sitting under 137 right now, they may be fine.


Exactly what I was thinking but I hadn't seen/heard anything regarding this yet. The shows that I did test with I was able to view. Hopefully a new kernel will be out soon otherwise as I record/delete shows the space will get used up and I'll definitely be in the dog house with two non-functioning tivo's.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

My unmodified DSR6000 received the 3.5 upgrade last night. The guide does seem to be quicker. But, then that unit was always fairly quick since it has the original 40G drive.

Now waiting for the T60 to get 3.5. It has an added 120GB drive.


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## Francesco (Oct 4, 1999)

Ack. 

We noticed the upgrade when TiVo (DSR6000R with a 200 GB drive, CacheCard and an LBA48 kernel) kept rebooting at the same point in a recorded show. I figured there had been a minor update but it didn't occur to me that it was a wholesale change including the kernel.

Crap.


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## Lateshowrob (Jan 16, 2002)

Grrrr....this darn software update apparently fried my stock, non-upgraded Philips DTivo. Is that even possible? The software seemingly installed and updated, but now I'm an endless 'Welcome Powering Up' loop. Why would that happen?


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

Lateshowrob said:


> Grrrr....this darn software update apparently fried my stock, non-upgraded Philips DTivo. Is that even possible? The software seemingly installed and updated, but now I'm an endless 'Welcome Powering Up' loop. Why would that happen?


Yes, a software update can cause this. Here's why ....

Tivos use two different partions for their software image. One is where the current version resides and is essentially the "active" partition. If your Tivo reboots that's the partition it boots from. The second software partition holds the previous software version, and it's where new versions are downloaded. When your Tivo detects that a new version has downloaded to that partition it schedules a reboot (usually ~2am), and loads the new software from the previously unused partition, which now becomes the new "active" partition. So, if anything is wrong with that previously unused partition, your Tivo will have the symptoms you're experiencing.

Check out the resources in the Tivo Upgrade Center Forum here if you want to replace/upgrade that defective hard drive.


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## Lateshowrob (Jan 16, 2002)

Thanks LD911. Guess I'll have to bite the bullet and attempt a HD replacement.


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## slapshot (Feb 12, 2002)

I have an old series 1 Hughes Directivo that I have laying around that I don't use anymore (but may later)and was wondering if I should let this unit get upgraded? Would I need to activate it from Directv,or can i just power it up,run a sat line to it (and the phone line) and leave it alone for a few days/week? Or not even bother?


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## Dirac (Oct 18, 2002)

Hey T60 people, did they kill the TiVo guy animation (TiVo+0)?


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## schampio (May 1, 2002)

Lateshowrob said:


> Thanks LD911. Guess I'll have to bite the bullet and attempt a HD replacement.


Maybe you should try to tpip the lba48 aware kernel from the instantcake cd onto your new active partition before you go that far. Since the updated kernel can't write past 137gb what was out there before should be intact and the write error hopefully caused the reboot before it updated all its tables in the <137gb areas of the disk. Or the re-tpip'ed kernel might be able to recover them when it fsck's on the boot. Maybe you'll get lucky and it can't hurt.
Still it seems crazy to me that they wouldn't have pushed the newer LBA48 aware kernels out with this patch. Failing to do that is going to encourage more and more folks to leave the phone lines disconnected..... unless DTV is hoping to kill off the lingering tivo's out there so folks will ask for replacement boxes and get an NDS shipped in to replace it. Its DTV's choice about what they send you on unit failure.


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## Lateshowrob (Jan 16, 2002)

Schampio, my drive was a stock 40 GB drive so I'm not sure what you're saying.


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## Lateshowrob (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm dying here without my Tivo...does anyone know if it will work if I replace my dead drive with a 160 GB drive using the 'Instantcake' method? Should I just do that and unhook my phone line thus preventing the new software download? This 'lba-48' tech stuff is a little bit over my head.

Thanks.


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## PaleGreen1 (Aug 6, 2002)

Dirac said:


> Hey T60 people, did they kill the TiVo guy animation (TiVo+0)?


Nope. He was up to his usual zany hijinks for me when I pressed the TiVo button this morning.

However, my Favorite Channels list was KIA -- again. Sigh...


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## bsnelson (Oct 30, 1999)

schampio said:


> Maybe you should try to tpip the lba48 aware kernel from the instantcake cd onto your new active partition before you go that far.


This has been confirmed to NOT work. At the least, 3.5 expects a symbol to be exported from the kernel that the existing lba48 kernels do not export. Fixing that issue specifically is a fairly simple matter, but there may be other issues.

Brad


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

Dirac said:


> Hey T60 people, did they kill the TiVo guy animation (TiVo+0)?


Nope. Still there. Why does everyone ask this? The only person that I know that likes watching him is my 2 year old.


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

Lateshowrob said:


> I'm dying here without my Tivo...does anyone know if it will work if I replace my dead drive with a 160 GB drive using the 'Instantcake' method? Should I just do that and unhook my phone line thus preventing the new software download? This 'lba-48' tech stuff is a little bit over my head.
> 
> Thanks.


That is what I did. Shelved my 300 Gb drive and tossed in a 120 Gb built from the Instantcake CD. Except I prevented my Tivo from upgrading by modifying the rc.sysinit file. I need to have network access for other stuff.


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

Riddle me this...

I have two DSR6000 DirecTiVo units. (Lucky me.  )

One has up to 67 hours of recording time and the other has up to 148 hours.

So one needs LBA48 and the other doesn't?

What's weird is that the unit with the under 127gb drive has the new 3.5.0 software version while the unit with the greater than 127gb drive still has the old software version...

I will be anxiously dreading to see if the large drive unit will update even. I have unplugged that phone line for now... Hope I did it in time.

I honestly don't notice any change with the unit running 3.5.0 software, but that's probably because I am dumb. 

How long would people "GUESS" it will be before a patch is available that permits (LBA48) a large drive unit to run the 3.5.0 s/w? Days? Weeks? Months? Eons?


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## bsnelson (Oct 30, 1999)

baatz said:


> How long would people "GUESS" it will be before a patch is available that permits (LBA48) a large drive unit to run the 3.5.0 s/w? Days? Weeks? Months? Eons?


Based on what I've read elsewhere, days. Could be as easy as a simple config change and kernel rebuild.

Brad


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## Francesco (Oct 4, 1999)

Just got home to find mine in a reboot loop, never getting past "Welcome - Powering up." 

The drive is a two-month old Seagate 200 GB. Crap.


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## Talon (Dec 5, 2001)

Not liking the update. I use the TIVO guide, and now when I press the guide button, the display pops up and for a half second it says "To Be Announced" on most of the channels listed, then fills it in with the correct data right after that. Some channels also take a second to even show up in the left pane. It was better before the update, at least to me.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I can't understand why any user, and by extension any guide or script, would use a LBA48 kernel without taking the necessary steps to prevent tivo from installing updated software.

A disaster waiting to happen. People with non-standard systems should be updating the software *when the tools necessary to do it right * are available and not when DTivo send the command to update.


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## marrone (Oct 11, 2001)

Definitely faster. Though the menu is a bit jumpy.

-Mike


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

lew said:


> I can't understand why any user, and by extension any guide or script, would use a LBA48 kernel without taking the necessary steps to prevent tivo from installing updated software.
> 
> A disaster waiting to happen. People with non-standard systems should be updating the software *when the tools necessary to do it right * are available and not when DTivo send the command to update.


This was a rather unexpected software update. Most of us had long assumed that the old Series 1 DirecTivos would no longer get any updated software.


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

baatz said:


> How long would people "GUESS" it will be before a patch is available that permits (LBA48) a large drive unit to run the 3.5.0 s/w? Days? Weeks? Months? Eons?


It depends entirely on how long it takes TiVo to release the source code for 3.5. Until that happens, nothing can happen with lba48 support.


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## Deven (Feb 6, 2001)

Wow, I'm glad that I disabled the software upgrade in the init scripts! This is the first upgrade in almost 2 years; I thought we'd never see another one at this point, yet here we are... (My TiVo downloaded 3.1.0c2 on 7/29/04 and 3.5 on 4/25/06.)

I'm disappointed that the upgrade didn't come with a stock kernel with LBA48 support. Would that really have been so hard to include?

I'm not ready to allow the upgrade to proceed until I understand the software differences better, and have an opportunity to make a new backup. Meanwhile, both my SAT-T60 and DSR6000 are rebooting every night in an attempt to upgrade the software. Very annoying.

Is there a way to suppress the "Pending Restart" without actually performing the upgrade yet, or do I have to suffer daily reboots indefinitely until I'm ready to allow the upgrade?


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## jgerry (Aug 29, 2001)

The unexpected update has annoyed me. I now need to pull my drive and fix all my hacks.

beyond that -- my season passes are really screwed up. 2/3 of them are now not recording... If I look at my recording history, the missing shows are there, but they all say they won't record because someone in my household modified the SP... I didn't modify anything! I've had to manually add back a bunch of shows for the next week.

Very, VERY annoying! The slightly speedier / jumpier Now Playing screen isn't worth the upgrade. :down:


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## Dale Sorel (Dec 27, 2001)

jgerry said:


> The unexpected update has annoyed me. I now need to pull my drive and fix all my hacks.


Can you really expect DirecTV/whoever is responsible for this software update to work around any/all of your hacks 



> Very, VERY annoying! The slightly speedier / jumpier Now Playing screen isn't worth the upgrade. :down:


Sorry guy, but many of us (including myself) disagree


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## Chris Fisher (Sep 2, 2003)

Hello. I have an SAT T-60 with a 160 gb drive upgrade. No hacks. It shows 120 hours variable record time, so I assume it is only working to the 137 gb limit. Working on that assumption, should I be okay to accept the upgrade? As of 5/3 AM I am still running 3.1. Thanks for your advice.


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## JohnTivo (Dec 2, 2002)

Chris Fisher said:


> Hello. I have an SAT T-60 with a 160 gb drive upgrade. No hacks. It shows 120 hours variable record time, so I assume it is only working to the 137 gb limit. Working on that assumption, should I be okay to accept the upgrade? As of 5/3 AM I am still running 3.1. Thanks for your advice.


As long as the partition the new update is located on is okay, then your update should go smoothly.


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## tmembrino (May 29, 2002)

As I'm patiently waiting for an LBA48 kernel release for this new S1 Dtivo version is it okay to continue using my slightly disabled 200GB unit? The unit is running but a portion of the NP list doesn't play properly since the kernel under 3.5 is obviously not LBA48 "aware". I'm wondering if I'm risking database corruption or recording damage/loss if I continue using the tivo in this mode.

Any thoughts/advice?

Tx,

Tim


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## youngdr (Jan 10, 2002)

I have 2 T60's that are currently not activated. Do these receivers need to be activated in order to receive the update, or can I plug them into the multiswitch and phone line and get them updated?


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

Dale Sorel said:


> Can you really expect DirecTV/whoever is responsible for this software update to work around any/all of your hacks
> 
> Sorry guy, but many of us (including myself) disagree


"Sorry guy" but I for one do not appreciate an update (any update) being forced upon me. It is my equipment and I would appreciate the option of either upgrading its software or NOT upgrading it. That isn't expecting too much? Other software providers provide an option for automatic updates but also *ask* before their updates are performed.

Perhaps it is just my out-of-control-paranoia --- but it seems very suspicious that D* just sprung this update on its DirecTiVo customers... The simple fact is, many people now have receivers that no longer function at all or units that no longer function as well as they did BEFORE this surprise upgrade...

I am very happy for you if your units are working and even working better... That's great. But this "upgrade" is not an improvement to many of us. D*'s actions are indefensible from my perspective.

Maybe the point is to persuade DirecTiVo users (who've been adversely affected) to simply quit using their old receivers and instead switch to D*'s non-TiVo DVRs? If so, that's a lousy --- but most effective way to get the "job" done?

I'm luckier than some people. I disconnected my phone line before my units were unceremoniously hit, I mean, upgraded. But many other people were not so lucky and I feel badly for them. 

DISHnetwork is looking more and more like a viable alternative to D*... Not an alternative that I would relish but one I might choose if it is forced on me. My DirecTiVo receivers are the main reason why I don't want to change satelite companies. D*'s main and only really positive factor is their lock on the SundayTicket programming --- and I don't get or desire to subscribe to the Ticket anyway.

D* might not miss the $125 (plus) that I have been paying them for the last 12 or so years? But, I'll bet that DISH would love for me to change over. Anyone interested in buying my two DirecTiVos with 300-gig hard drives? Have to be someone who doesn't mind dealing with nag screens?  I'd need to buy new standalone TiVos, I guess?

I wonder if I could even sell/transfer them. Anyone know if D* allows their customers to transfer DirecTiVo service?


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## Dale Sorel (Dec 27, 2001)

baatz said:


> "Sorry guy" but I for one do not appreciate an update (any update) being forced upon me. It is my equipment and I would appreciate the option of either upgrading its software or NOT upgrading it.


"Sorry guy," but I remember seeing somewhere in the TiVo/DirecTV legalese that even if you own the machine TiVo/DirecTV still has the right to update the software whenever they want.

Sorry your machine isn't working right, but please don't assume that most of the TiVos out there are hacked like yours and therefore not working properly after the update.

My machine has an extra HD from Weaknees yet still performs perfectly.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

baatz said:


> I'd need to buy new standalone TiVos, I guess?


So I guess when TiVo updates the software on the standalone without your explicit permission you will be selling the standalones also.


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

rminsk said:


> So I guess when TiVo updates the software on the standalone without your explicit permission you will be selling the standalones also.


rMinsk,

TiVo didn't upgrade the software... DirecTV did... I've have many TiVos and have had some of them for many years and thus far the friendly folks at TiVo have yet to force a software upgrade down my unwilling gullet. But if they ever do, I'll go ballistic and throw all of my TiVos off a high cliff. Nevermind that there are no high cliffs in Florida! 

Nor am I jumping ship on DirecTV either. I am, in fact, just voicing my honest opinion that the upgrade was rude and obviously "uncalled" for. Uncalled by me, anyways. 

If you like the software upgrade, goody for you! I'm thrilled for you. (Okay that might be a slight exaggeration.) Me, I don't like it. And, why do you ask? Did I step on your toes? Were *YOU* the devious culprit that foisted the upgrade on all of us?  Just spoofing you! 

All I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt D* to ASK before the upgrade is executed... Like the software that automatically updates on my computer for example? It simply asks me if I want to update now, or later, or not at all.

Cool beans, huh?


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

youngdr said:


> I have 2 T60's that are currently not activated. Do these receivers need to be activated in order to receive the update, or can I plug them into the multiswitch and phone line and get them updated?


They need to be active receivers.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Directv just renewed their contract with tivo. We're now getting software that speeds up some of the menus and makes the menus similar to other units to ease support. MAKES SENSE TO ME.

The only units that have a problem with the new software are either units with failing HD's or units that weren't properly "hacked".

Anyone hacking a machine, particularly a hack that requires a non-standard kernel, should have taken the necessary steps to prevent an automatic upgrade.

Don't blame tivo or DTV because some users didn't do what they should have. Tivo/DTV always has automatic upgrades.

Your complaint is indefensible. DTV and tivo are under no obligation to support, or even make life easier, for people who hack their machines.



baatz said:


> "Sorry guy" but I for one do not appreciate an update (any update) being forced upon me. It is my equipment and I would appreciate the option of either upgrading its software or NOT upgrading it. That isn't expecting too much? Other software providers provide an option for automatic updates but also *ask* before their updates are performed.
> 
> Perhaps it is just my out-of-control-paranoia --- but it seems very suspicious that D* just sprung this update on its DirecTiVo customers... The simple fact is, many people now have receivers that no longer function at all or units that no longer function as well as they did BEFORE this surprise upgrade...
> 
> ...


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## Talon (Dec 5, 2001)

I just want to say my TIVO, Sat-T60, is not hacked, and I'm not really liking what the upgrade has done to the TIVO guide on that machine. See my earlier post above.


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

lew said:


> Directv just renewed their contract with tivo. We're now getting software that speeds up some of the menus and makes the menus similar to other units to ease support. MAKES SENSE TO ME. The only units that have a problem with the new software are either units with failing HD's or units that weren't properly "hacked". Anyone hacking a machine, particularly a hack that requires a non-standard kernel, should have taken the necessary steps to prevent an automatic upgrade. Don't blame tivo or DTV because some users didn't do what they should have. Tivo/DTV always has automatic upgrades. Your complaint is indefensible. DTV and tivo are under no obligation to support, or even make life easier, for people who hack their machines.


Lew, you have a very interesting opinion... Do I have it right: I shouldn't complain because I shouldn't have replaced my DirecTiVo's defective hard drive with a drive larger than 127gb? Seems rather harsh, but shame on me! And, shame on InstantCake too? 

Okay, now that you've explained everything to me so succinctly, I understand that I deserve to be punished for my inexcuseable act of irresponsibly (and improperly) "hacking" my receiver. And evidently for SOME reason it's *way* TOO much to want D* to simply ask before they execute software upgrades on my receivers? That attitude seems most curious. But, at any rate, I'm happy that many other companies do not do that with automatic software upgrades of their software. I still wonder why D* does? Oh yes, I almost forgot... I deserve to be punished.  I wonder how many other people installed larger drives like I did and didn't take "the necessary steps to prevent an automatic upgrade"?

By the way, what steps would that have been? Help me out here... Maybe it's not too late for me! 

I might even agree with you if I knew of *any* reason that it's unreasonable to want such a simple "Do you want to upgrade now?" message before my DirecTiVo is upgraded. Maybe you could explain why it is so unreasonable to desire to have a choice? Maybe it would cost D* too much or be way too much trouble to do things that way? I especially loved the part where you explained that D* or TiVo isn't *obligated* to make life easier... Wow... Okay. 

Evidently I'm just too darned stupid to understand these complicated concepts. Please excuse me for still being unhappy --- even after you "explained" everything so well. 

Watch out there Talon... Don't be critical or express your opinions or Lew might spank you too.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I'm sure part of the terms and conditions of using your DTivo is you accept software upgrades, I'm not going to take the time to do a search. You don't even have the ability to opt out of the occasional software upgrades to the non-DVR receivers.

You really should be complaining to wherever you got your upgrade instructions from. It was known that a tivo upgrade would crash the system of anyone who used an LBA48 hacked kernel. I can't understand why the instructions didn't suggest not connecting a phone line or doing one of the other ways to prevent a software upgrade.

PEOPLE WHO HACK THEIR TIVO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. I'm sorry you're having a problem but the problem was foreseeable and preventable.

No I'm not "spanking you" but I'm not letting people get away with blamming DTV for their mistakes. Once you decide to make your unit "non-stock" you're responsible for support.
edited to add I see the following warning


> Also note that should TiVo update the software on your unit, you will need to go through the kernel replacement procedure again. If new software is downloaded, your unit will reboot and you may either not have access to all of your programming or your TiVo may not boot at all.


I think anyone who used, particularly if they paid for a CD image, instructions for using a LBA48 kernel have grounds to complain to the person/company that supplied the instructions *if the instructions didn't provide clear instructions on how to block a software upgrade.*



baatz said:


> Lew, you have a very interesting opinion... Do I have it right: I shouldn't complain because I shouldn't have replaced my DirecTiVo's defective hard drive with a drive larger than 127gb? Seems rather harsh, but shame on me! And, shame on InstantCake too?
> 
> Okay, now that you've explained everything to me so succinctly, I understand that I deserve to be punished for my inexcuseable act of irresponsibly (and improperly) "hacking" my receiver. And evidently for SOME reason it's *way* TOO much to want D* to simply ask before they execute software upgrades on my receivers? That attitude seems most curious. But, at any rate, I'm happy that many other companies do not do that with automatic software upgrades of their software. I still wonder why D* does? Oh yes, I almost forgot... I deserve to be punished.  I wonder how many other people installed larger drives like I did and didn't take "the necessary steps to prevent an automatic upgrade"?
> 
> ...


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

baatz said:


> I've have many TiVos and have had some of them for many years and thus far the friendly folks at TiVo have yet to force a software upgrade down my unwilling gullet.


So you've had a for many years TiVo and never had a software update. So are your standalone TiVo still running the 4.x software?


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

baatz said:


> Lew, you have a very interesting opinion... Do I have it right: I shouldn't complain because I shouldn't have replaced my DirecTiVo's defective hard drive with a drive larger than 127gb?


and voided any warranty also... DirecTV is not responsible for any damage caused by a user modifing the unit...


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

baatz said:


> By the way, what steps would that have been? Help me out here... Maybe it's not too late for me!


The easiest way is to unplug the phone line and don't setup your unit to make phone calls via broadband. Order your PPVs via the Directv website. So far all upgrades have required a phone to start the installation.

You can also add a bootpage parameter or edit one of the files on the tivo to comment out the install section.

Again it was know that a tivo upgrade would be a MAJOR PROBLEM to LBA48 users, any instructions on using the new kernel should have included instructions on how to block new upgrades. Could have been as simple as telling users to leave their phone lines unplugged or could have included a script to make the boot paramenter or script change on the tivo itself.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I need a clarification. I have a T60 with an added 120GB drive. From what I've read here, I should have no problem with this upgrade, re: LBA48 support. My unmodded DSR6000 upgraded just fine, obviously. The "to be announced" in the guide only shows for a very short time on the DSR.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

JimSpence said:


> I need a clarification. I have a T60 with an added 120GB drive. From what I've read here, I should have no problem with this upgrade, re: LBA48 support. My unmodded DSR6000 upgraded just fine, obviously. The "to be announced" in the guide only shows for a very short time on the DSR.


You will be fine Jim. The people that are having issues are people who have replaced there kernel with a kernel that support LBA48 and have a video data partition greater the 127GB.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

JimSpence said:


> I need a clarification. I have a T60 with an added 120GB drive. From what I've read here, I should have no problem with this upgrade, re: LBA48 support. My unmodded DSR6000 upgraded just fine, obviously. The "to be announced" in the guide only shows for a very short time on the DSR.


Not to worry, Jim. My T60 with an upgraded 120GB took the upgrade just fine. And the "Now Playing List" and Guide Data displays seem much faster.


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

The fact is that I did stop the update from adversely affecting my DirecTiVo... Read my earlier postings and you will see that. In fact, I have two DirecTiVos. One that uses LBA48 support. One that doesn't... Both are working fine right now. I HAVR ALREADY UNPLUGGED THE PHONE LINES. So please spare me the repetetive advice that I should have "known" better.

Another fact is that I was simply lucky that the update wasn't performed on my receiver with the 160gb drive... Pure luck or dumb luck I guess? My complaint with the "automatic" software updates is that I have no CHOICE. I don't care if ToVo and D* can legally do it. My point is that they don't need to be heavy-handed. What is the point? If I don't upgrade my software on my receivers I will be the one who deals with it, not them. By the way, we are talking about receivers that are nearly antiques in the grand scheme of consumer electronics... They are NOT covered by any warranties.

FWIW, I bought InstantCake when my hard drive crapped out on one of my two DirecTiVo receivers a couple of years ago. The hard drive I installed then was a 160gb Maxtor, if I remember correctly. It has worked great... My other DirecTiVo does not have a large (>127gb) drive.

I am complaining about the non-optional aspect of the upgrades and have been told so far that any and all potential problems which I have now or might experience in the future are:

a.) my fault because DirecTV and TiVo have the "legal" right to perform updates without asking me if I want them

b.) my fault because I hacked my receiver

c.) my fault because I didn't pre-empt (prevent) the automatic update

d.) my fault because I voided the warranty on my 7-year old receiver by replacing the hard drive (I didn't even know that my 7-year-old receiver was covered by a warranty).

Is that about it?

I think I am finally getting the picture. I shouldn't have complained here in the forum about anything that D* and TiVo might ever do? I didn't realize that I was making such a huge mistake by posting a message on this forum asking WHY TiVo & D* doesn't just ask before executing software updates. I screwed up? Never post a message criticizing or complaining about the way TiVo or D* business is conducted? Is that in the forum rules and guidelines or just in the TiVo EULA?

In case someone in the forum still doesn't "get it" --- I am talking about handling TiVo updates the same way that Microsoft, Mozilla, McAfee or many other major software companies handle their automatic updates. Any number of times I have booted a computer and seen a message/notice that there's an update pending for my _________ (fill-in the blank) software. Automatic Updates are a great feature... I am then presented with a choice. Install it now, install it later or cancel... GET IT???

Probably not... But the mighty defenders of all things TiVo can relax... You can call off the dogs. I was wrong... TiVo can do anything they want and they have no obligation to be reasonable or easy to get along with. Good customer relations? What's that?


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## winter (Jan 28, 2002)

lew said:


> The easiest way is to unplug the phone line and don't setup your unit to make phone calls via broadband. Order your PPVs via the Directv website. So far all upgrades have required a phone to start the installation.
> 
> You can also add a bootpage parameter or edit one of the files on the tivo to comment out the install section.
> 
> Again it was know that a tivo upgrade would be a MAJOR PROBLEM to LBA48 users, any instructions on using the new kernel should have included instructions on how to block new upgrades. Could have been as simple as telling users to leave their phone lines unplugged or could have included a script to make the boot paramenter or script change on the tivo itself.


My phone line has never been connected to my T60 and I received the update (and the unit rebooted itself) this morning at 2:47am. Its now running 3.5-01. I had previously replaced a failing hard drive with a 160GB using InstantCake (with LBA48 support). The unit boots fine and reports 150 hours of space but I cannot watch any programs recorded prior to today. Anything recorded since then is ok.

Just passing along another data point.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

winter said:


> My phone line has never been connected to my T60 and I received the update (and the unit rebooted itself) this morning at 2:47am. Its now running 3.5-01. I had previously replaced a failing hard drive with a 160GB using InstantCake (with LBA48 support). The unit boots fine and reports 150 hours of space but I cannot watch any programs recorded prior to today. Anything recorded since then is ok.
> 
> Just passing along another data point.


Do you have your unit set to make phone call via the internet? What dialing prefix do you have set up.


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## winter (Jan 28, 2002)

lew said:


> Do you have your unit set to make phone call via the internet? What dialing prefix do you have set up.


Its a Series1/T60 so I assume that it doesnt know how to reach the internet (although I have added a network card). I did not change the dialing prefix myself, it is currently set to ",#401". Thanks


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## catbert00 (Sep 10, 2003)

winter said:


> Its a Series1/T60 so I assume that it doesnt know how to reach the internet (although I have added a network card). I did not change the dialing prefix myself, it is currently set to ",#401". Thanks


The dialing prefix you have listed there is the one that tells the TiVo to use the internet to make it's calls! And since you have a network card, I'm assuming that it does exactly that!


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## winter (Jan 28, 2002)

catbert00 said:


> The dialing prefix you have listed there is the one that tells the TiVo to use the internet to make it's calls! And since you have a network card, I'm assuming that it does exactly that!


Thank you for that information. I was unaware that a T60 (which doesnt come with any networking capability stock) had the software to make internet calls. I will keep that in mind for the future.


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## bsnelson (Oct 30, 1999)

tmembrino said:


> As I'm patiently waiting for an LBA48 kernel release for this new S1 Dtivo version is it okay to continue using my slightly disabled 200GB unit? The unit is running but a portion of the NP list doesn't play properly since the kernel under 3.5 is obviously not LBA48 "aware". I'm wondering if I'm risking database corruption or recording damage/loss if I continue using the tivo in this mode.
> 
> Any thoughts/advice?
> 
> ...


The bad news is: It's already toast. It's just a matter of time until you start getting some GSODs and other fun stuff. Getting an LBA48 kernel won't "fix" it at this point; it's going to have to be rebuilt from scratch.

Sorry.

Brad


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

winter said:


> Its a Series1/T60 so I assume that it doesnt know how to reach the internet (although I have added a network card). I did not change the dialing prefix myself, it is currently set to ",#401". Thanks


One of the options when you use at least some versions of the install software for the turbocard is to make your phone calls via the internet. If you answer Y it changes the prefix to #401 and makes whatever other changes that are necessary.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Still waiting for the update for my T60.


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## winter (Jan 28, 2002)

JimSpence said:


> Still waiting for the update for my T60.


LOL, you can have mine


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

JimSpence said:


> Still waiting for the update for my T60.


Jim, when was the last time it "phoned home"? Mine updated the evening of its most recent "Daily Call" (which are actually more "weekly" on the T60). You can probably Force a "Daily Call" and trigger the update. Or perhaps they're gradually downloading the software by service number or areas of the country or something like that.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I took the necisary steps last night to make sure I don't even get the "update call", removed my prefix and installed fakecall.tcl. I'm going to wait until things get smoothed out, since I don't really see any advantages to this update.


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## murphy9945 (Jan 23, 2003)

Well, I wondered what the heck happened to my Favorite channels today and then I hit the forum to see what was up...

I never new that an update wiped out some stuff. That now known, it seems to me that I must of gotten another update not more than 6 mos ago cause I lost the FAVS around that time also.

Guess I should get off my butt and install my CachCard (in the box for 7mos), get my DSR6000 networked, start enjoying some REAL hacks, and pull the phone line SOON to avoid unecessary updates.

Its time consuming [and aggravating] to re-program stuff [like FAVS] for an upgrade that has, so far, not yielded ANY benefits to me. That said, whats the best version to install for the most feature benefits. I want to really enjoy the rewards of networking the TIVO and be able to use ALL the SPC & EEC codes.

Thanks.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> I'm going to wait until things get smoothed out, since I don't really see any advantages to this update.


Much faster guide and now playing are the some of the advantages.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

murphy9945 said:


> That said, whats the best version to install for the most feature benefits. I want to really enjoy the rewards of networking the TIVO and be able to use ALL the SPC & EEC codes


Unless you want to use a LBA48 kernel then 3.5 has the most benefits in my opinion.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

rminsk said:


> Much faster guide and now playing are the some of the advantages.


I guess after almost 7 years of slow guide data and a few seconds to load now playing, I don't really care that much about this.

I'd rather have TiVoweb, and other hacks work right now.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

litzdog911 said:


> Jim, when was the last time it "phoned home"? Mine updated the evening of its most recent "Daily Call" (which are actually more "weekly" on the T60). You can probably Force a "Daily Call" and trigger the update. Or perhaps they're gradually downloading the software by service number or areas of the country or something like that.


April 27 was the last phone call. The next is scheduled for May 12. However, the system info page doesn't have the "pending restart" that is usually there to trigger the update. I will do a phone call to see what happens. I'm not too concerned, but it is weird that my DSR6000 got the update within a couple of days.

Edit: I forgot that the "pending restart" isn't shown until after the phone call. I forced the phone call and then did a restart. It is now doing its thing. Currently showing Updating Database This will take a long time. Thankfully I have other TiVos to use. 

The system has completed its update. All is well. Now to reenter the SPS codes.


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## tmembrino (May 29, 2002)

bsnelson said:


> The bad news is: It's already toast. It's just a matter of time until you start getting some GSODs and other fun stuff. Getting an LBA48 kernel won't "fix" it at this point; it's going to have to be rebuilt from scratch.
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> Brad


Thanks for replying Brad - as it turns out reality struck yesterday and the Tivo started a reboot loop. We'd already pretty much given up on the content. Good news is this gave me the kick in the pants I needed to get around to a solid night of Tivo hacking. I've since got the S1 unit back up with a restored 3.10c2 image and blocked the upgrade (also finally got around to upgrading/hacking my S2 unit so it was a productive night).

Still hoping the LBA48 kernel gets released at some point for 3.5 on S1 - the little I played with it the system seemed much more responsive - great loading times on a long NP list.

Tim


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## Dale Sorel (Dec 27, 2001)

baatz said:


> In case someone in the forum still doesn't "get it" --- I am talking about handling TiVo updates the same way that Microsoft, Mozilla, McAfee or many other major software companies handle their automatic updates. Any number of times I have booted a computer and seen a message/notice that there's an update pending for my _________ (fill-in the blank) software.


Uh, did your TiVo come with a keyboard... I didn't think so.

Whatever your mind set is, your TiVo is not a PeeCee... get it


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## DrSpalding (Oct 4, 2002)

Before I dive in and redo my hacks, does anyone know if the tivoweb software will work properly with the database change? I would like to know if it is worth re-installing it or not.

[Update 15:40PDT]
Yup. Just like I thought--the tivoweb doesn't work for nowshowing (at least). The logs work, the info page works, todo works, but the nowshowing page doesn't at all. Anyone have an update for it?

Thanks!
Dan


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

baatz said:


> "Sorry guy" but I for one do not appreciate an update (any update) being forced upon me. It is my equipment and I would appreciate the option of either upgrading its software or NOT upgrading it. That isn't expecting too much? Other software providers provide an option for automatic updates but also *ask* before their updates are performed.
> 
> Perhaps it is just my out-of-control-paranoia --- but it seems very suspicious that D* just sprung this update on its DirecTiVo customers... The simple fact is, many people now have receivers that no longer function at all or units that no longer function as well as they did BEFORE this surprise upgrade...
> 
> ...


Other 'software providers' have nothing to do with it. This isn't software, it's a DVR.

Other DVR providers DO update your software without your permission. Sometimes to enable you to coninue using "YOUR" equipment. (IE New sat locations, new access cards, new whatever...)

SO leave DirecTV, but Dish Network, Cable Companies, and TiVo will ALL update your DVR software completely without your permission. (And, you won't have to worry because you can't hack the cable or Dish DVR's...)


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Exactly, one of the reasons other DVR's are less "hack friendly" than DTivo is to avoid the support issues that people like the poster you quoted create.

Tivo doesn't have any supported way for users to load custom software. No CDROM drive, no floppy drive, no working USB port and no bash prompt.

Users who are have hacked such a machine really shouldn't expect ANY help.



Adam1115 said:


> Other 'software providers' have nothing to do with it. This isn't software, it's a DVR.
> 
> Other DVR providers DO update your software without your permission. Sometimes to enable you to coninue using "YOUR" equipment. (IE New sat locations, new access cards, new whatever...)
> 
> SO leave DirecTV, but Dish Network, Cable Companies, and TiVo will ALL update your DVR software completely without your permission. (And, you won't have to worry because you can't hack the cable or Dish DVR's...)


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## Blackfoot (Jul 12, 2002)

DrSpalding said:


> Before I dive in and redo my hacks, does anyone know if the tivoweb software will work properly with the database change? I would like to know if it is worth re-installing it or not.
> 
> [Update 15:40PDT]
> Yup. Just like I thought--the tivoweb doesn't work for nowshowing (at least). The logs work, the info page works, todo works, but the nowshowing page doesn't at all. Anyone have an update for it?
> ...


Modify the modules/index.itcl file and change the V2 to a V3.

```
} elseif {$::version >= 3} {
   set guideindexdir "/GuideIndexV2"
```


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## KEC (Sep 21, 2002)

Series 1 guided setup works without disconnecting satellite inputs with version 3.5.


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## youngdr (Jan 10, 2002)

litzdog911 said:


> They need to be active receivers.


Actually they both ended up getting the update without being active!


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## tivo-com_guy (Mar 8, 2006)

lew said:


> I can't understand why any user, and by extension any guide or script, would use a LBA48 kernel without taking the necessary steps to prevent tivo from installing updated software.
> 
> A disaster waiting to happen. People with non-standard systems should be updating the software *when the tools necessary to do it right * are available and not when DTivo send the command to update.


Lew,

Could you please share info on how to update proof your DTivo?

So far I have: 
1. never plugged in the phone connection (didn't help)
2. not plugged in the ethernet connection (didn't help)
3. tried AlphaWolf's "nosdd.tcl" (didn't help)
4. used "#" to eliminate these lines from my rc.sysinit:
if [ "$swupgrade" = true ]; then
/tvlib/tcl/updateSoftware.tcl
(didn't help) now the DTivo will not start (I chomod 755 the file after the change)

Do you know other techniques that will actually work?

Please advise...


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> Other 'software providers' have nothing to do with it. This isn't software, it's a DVR. Other DVR providers DO update your software without your permission. Sometimes to enable you to coninue using "YOUR" equipment. (IE New sat locations, new access cards, new whatever...) SO leave DirecTV, but Dish Network, Cable Companies, and TiVo will ALL update your DVR software completely without your permission. (And, you won't have to worry because you can't hack the cable or Dish DVR's...)





lew said:


> Exactly, one of the reasons other DVR's are less "hack friendly" than DTivo is to avoid the support issues that people like the poster you quoted create. Tivo doesn't have any supported way for users to load custom software. No CDROM drive, no floppy drive, no working USB port and no bash prompt. Users who are have hacked such a machine really shouldn't expect ANY help.





Dale Sorel said:


> Uh, did your TiVo come with a keyboard... I didn't think so.
> Whatever your mind set is, your TiVo is not a PeeCee... get it


You are clueless:

Not software? Strange that TiVo calls it *SOFTWARE*. Not software? You must know more than the TiVo engineers? Probably more than anyone in the world? I bow to your superior knowledge.  Sheesh... Do you know anything at all about "hacking" a DirecTiVo? It sounds like you think that when I replaced the failed hard drive in my TiVo (hacked it) --- that I forfeited all rights to even use it? How absurd...

Again, you failed to attempt explaining why it would be asking too much of TiVo to make upgrading my _*software*_ optional, instead of performing unwanted (destructive and unneeded) updates on MY equipment. And please don't use that silly argument that TiVo has the "right" to do it... I'll stipulate to that. 

Let me see now... I've had my two DSR6000s for about eight years or so? I've never called DirecTV or TiVo for any support... So, I fail to see how my hacked unit is any potential burden on DirecTV or TiVo tech support.

Leave DirecTV? What an amazingly ridiculous suggestion. I think I'll just leave the DSR6000 phoneline unplugged until a "fix" is available for the "improved" software. If --- that is, it's all right with you?

By the way, it would not require a keyboard for me to CHOOSE whether or not to upgrade... Nor, am I asking for "custom software or any "help" from TiVo. Unless my wanting to have an option to upgrade would be considered HELP?

At the risk of incurring the wrath of any number of clueless idiots, I would like to ask how it would HURT anyone if TiVo simply sent a message indicating that if you want to upgrade your software --- hit Thumbs Up three times? If not, no upgrade is performed?????????

I would hazard a guess that there are many, many "hacked" DSR6000 DirecTiVo units --- none of which are hurting a thing.

It might even make a little difference if the upgrade was really necessary or actually useful in any substantive manner. Fact is my DirecTiVo units were working fine before the upgrade and the one that wasn't "hacked" received the upgrade and isn't noticeably better in any way that matters. Faster display of _Now Playing_ items? Not that I can tell...

No keyboard? Not a PC? Gee, that never occurred to me before...  But, what does that have to do with anything? 

IT seems most curious to me why anyone would OBJECT to having the OPTION to upgrade software as compared to having upgrades performed without providing TiVoManiacs any choice. Must be something to do with being anally retentive? 

Got my first nag screen tonight on my "hacked" receiver. No big deal, I assure you. Life is good...


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

baatz said:


> my _*software*_


You did not buy the software. You do not own the software. When you purchased the DVR you purchased a license to use the software provided by TiVo.

From the DirecTV section 7 of the DVR service agreement


> b) *Restrictions.* You may not copy, modify, transfer, disseminate or publish the Software, or any copy thereof, in whole or in part. You may not reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or translate the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive the source code of the Software, except to the extent allowed under any applicable law. Any attempt to transfer any of the rights, duties or obligations of this license agreement is void. You may not rent, lease, load, resell for profit or distribute the Software, or any part thereof.
> 
> c) *Ownership.* The Software is licensed, not sold, to you solely for your use under the terms of this license agreement, and DIRECTV and its suppliers reserve all rights not expressly granted to you. You shall own the media, if any, on which Software or End User Documentation is recorded, but DIRECTV and its suppliers retain ownership of all copies of the Software itself.


From the TiVo Service Agreement


> *6. Changes to Your TiVo Service.* TiVo may at its discretion and from time to time change, add, or remove features and functionality of the TiVo service or the TiVo DVR without notice. If you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo service, you may immediately cancel your use of the TiVo service as provided in Section 14 ("Termination of Service"). TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or all of the features of the TiVo service you receive at any time at its discretion. TiVo may at its discretion discontinue the provision of software updates to certain TiVo DVRs. This means that while other TiVo DVRs may receive continued software updates and functionality; TiVo is not required to provide such updates to your TiVo DVR. Additionally, the level of service TiVo provides may not be the same on each TiVo DVR; a given TiVo DVR may support different features and functionality, and TiVo is under no obligation to provide all features and functionality to your TiVo DVR.


So if you are unhappy about the changes exercise your right from section 14 of the agreement.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

AFAIK you're the only person who go an upgrade with 1 and 2. Is it possible a phone jack or the ethernet was plugged in by someone in your family? My guess is an ethernet cable was plugged in long enough for your unit to make a connection.

My memory is there are two sections of rc.sysinit that have to be commented out.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3989065&&#post3989065

You can set
upgradesoftware=false
as a bootpage paramater.

BUT the LBA48 kernel is how out, there really isn't any reason not to upgrade and re-hack.



tivo-com_guy said:


> Lew,
> 
> Could you please share info on how to update proof your DTivo?
> 
> ...


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

rminsk said:


> You did not buy the software. You do not own the software. When you purchased the DVR you purchased a license to use the software provided by TiVo.


Blah, blah, blah...

There's no reason why they shouldn't give us the option to upgrade or NOT to upgrade... Yes, they do have the legal RIGHT not to do so --- but it wouldn't *hurt* them to make upgrades optional?

But, if you want to needlessly defend their RIGHT to do so, have a ball.

Since the "fix" for LBA48 support with the v3.5 upgrade is now available, hopefully there won't be any additional DirecTiVo upgrades for the Phillips DSR6000s in the future.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

baatz said:


> Blah, blah, blah...
> 
> There's no reason why they shouldn't give us the option to upgrade or NOT to upgrade... Yes, they do have the legal RIGHT not to do so --- but it wouldn't *hurt* them to make upgrades optional?


I'll play devil's advocate here. Yes, it _can_ hurt them to make upgrades optional. Here are some reasons:

1) Current software doesn't have any way of opting in or out of upgrades, so development time would be needed to add this.

2) Changes outside of Tivo's control (such as guide data format, or something else that's controlled by DirecTV or others) could make old versions not function properly.

3) The more software versions that are out there, the more complex it is for a company to support.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

baatz said:


> Blah, blah, blah...
> 
> There's no reason why they shouldn't give us the option to upgrade or NOT to upgrade... Yes, they do have the legal RIGHT not to do so --- but it wouldn't *hurt* them to make upgrades optional?
> 
> ...


I don't understand why this whole upgrade issue bothers you. Comment out the upgrade sections in rc.sysinit, set upgrade sofware being false in the boot page or leave your phone line unplugged and don't allow the internet to connect to your unit. *You have the option to say no to upgrades. Setting that up is part of the hacking process.*

You can't "Mix and match". You either run stock and let tivo handle your software or assume 100% of the responisbility yourself.

I certainly wouldn't want all the phone calls from customers that say no and then call to ask what the new software gives and if they should have said no. I can understand how much easier support is when everyone is running the same software with the same menu choices.


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

BrettStah said:


> I'll play devil's advocate here. Yes, it _can_ hurt them to make upgrades optional. Here are some reasons:
> 
> 1) Current software doesn't have any way of opting in or out of upgrades, so development time would be needed to add this.
> 
> ...


Thanks, "Devil" BrettStah,

Finally someone has offered possible reasons for why TiVo doesn't make its upgrades optional...

Your number 1 comment is likely the main reason... and understandably so too. Why should TiVo expend resources to make updates optional. And, how MUCH money would it cost them? Or, for that matter, is it even technically feasible? And, why should they even bother?

I'd say that maybe they should "bother" because it would be an improvement over the way they currently handle upgrades? If it's not cost prohibitive for them, maybe they could even provide this feature in a future non-optional upgrade? 

But, if it is cost prohibitive for them to do it, that would be a reasonable answer to my question of why they don't make upgrades optional.

Reason #2 doesn't hit the mark on the v3.5 upgrade to the old (aging) series1 DirecTiVos --- my Phillips DSR6000 is working fine with the v3.1 software. In fact, I don't see any perceptible differences between my two DSR6000s, one running v3.1 and the other running v3.5. Not to say that a future upgrade couldn't be of a critical nature... It well could be? Doubtful, but possible...

Reason #3? On units as old as these series1 DirecTiVos, I seriously doubt that very many people even call TiVo for support. Not even for "stock" units. And, the first question TiVoSupport could ask is whether the receiver in question has had any alterations. If the answer is yes, they could simply say that they do not provide support for "hacked" units. When I replaced the hard drive that failed in my six-year-old TiVo it was FAR out of warranty. Which is why I went with InstantCake to salvage my dead reciever. I did NOT (and do not) expect TiVo to provide any tech support. To be perfectly honest, after having these units for over eight years now, I can't imagine TiVo's tech support offering me any help. I have pretty much figured out how they work. 

But, _Mr. Devil's Advocate_, I do greatly appreciate your sensible comments... Leastwise your replies make a LOT more sense than what others have had to offer...

Thanks again.


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

lew said:


> I don't understand why this whole upgrade issue bothers you. Comment out the upgrade sections in rc.sysinit, set upgrade sofware being false in the boot page or leave your phone line unplugged and don't allow the internet to connect to your unit. *You have the option to say no to upgrades. Setting that up is part of the hacking process.*


I agree, apparently you just don't understand.

My "hacked" DirecTiVo involves simply replacing the original (failed) hard drive with a new hard drive. The new drive is larger than 137gb (it's a 160gb drive). I used a product called InstantCake. I don't know what YOU are talking about regarding rc.sysinit. I did get lucky this time and unplugged the DirecTiVo with the large drive BEFORE the automatic upgrade occurred... Lucky, because apparently TiVo gave very little warning that an upgrade was imminent. (I know! TiVo has no LEGAL obligation to give any warnings whatsoever...) And, lucky that the upgrade wasn't performed and cause my receiver to self-destruct, rebooting endlessly.

InstantCake has now released a "free" fix which will allow LBA48 support when running the new v3.5 TiVo software. Once I use that fix, I will no longer be bothered with the occassional nag screen reminding me to plug my phoneline in.

And, if I may ask, why does my desire to have optional upgrades bother you? It's not like I am attacking TiVo. I'm not... In fact, I am a fanatical TiVo owner... What *I* don't understand is why some posters on this forum have gotten so incensed when I merely suggested/questioned that making future TiVo upgrades optional would be a good thing? 

Oh well...


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Another post that makes no sense. You have it backward. If tivo wanted software upgrades to be optional that feature would have been designed into the software from the very beginning. The point does make it clear why it's unlikely they'll change their approach but does nothing to answer the question why optional software upgrades wasn't implemented in the first place.

Optional installation would *increase * support calls when users say no to new software then call to try to decide if they need it. We don't think there are any bug corrections in the new software but many of us found we needed to upprade from 2.X to 3.X in order to keep our locals. It's possible, but I'll agree not likely, that some of the new software upgrade may be required for future changes to DTV such as new access cards. Some of the previous upgrades were for security issues and DTV didn't want to allow customers to remain on older software versions.

Support is a lot easier if different users with different units all have the same menu structure.



baatz said:


> Thanks, "Devil" BrettStah,
> 
> Finally someone has offered possible reasons for why TiVo doesn't make its upgrades optional...
> 
> ...


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I think you have a legitimate complaint with the InstantCake people. They should not have sold a product that leaves a unit with a non-stock kernel in a position to be automatically upgraded. Particularly since data corruption of the drive would be a probable result of such an upgrade.

Tivo has "looked the other way" and allowed us to hack the units. They allow PTVUpgrade to even sell images and scripts. The only thing they ask is that we don't bother them for support, directly or indirectly, for our hacked units. Asking them to do *anything different * to support hacked units is more likely to cause them to try block hacking than anything else. Even one extra phone from one user who asks if he should accept the software download.

I'd agree with you 100% if your posts were directed to the person or organization who helped you hack, there isn't any reason I can think of for allowing automatic upgrades to LBA48 hacked series 1 units. I just think you're blaming the wrong company.

Tivo is not a user upgraded product, so users who upgrade it have to take responsibility.



baatz said:


> I agree, apparently you just don't understand.
> 
> My "hacked" DirecTiVo involves simply replacing the original (failed) hard drive with a new hard drive. The new drive is larger than 137gb (it's a 160gb drive). I used a product called InstantCake. I don't know what YOU are talking about regarding rc.sysinit. I did get lucky this time and unplugged the DirecTiVo with the large drive BEFORE the automatic upgrade occurred... Lucky, because apparently TiVo gave very little warning that an upgrade was imminent. (I know! TiVo has no LEGAL obligation to give any warnings whatsoever...) And, lucky that the upgrade wasn't performed and cause my receiver to self-destruct, rebooting endlessly.
> 
> ...


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

baatz said:


> I agree, apparently you just don't understand.
> 
> My "hacked" DirecTiVo involves simply replacing the original (failed) hard drive with a new hard drive. The new drive is larger than 137gb (it's a 160gb drive). I used a product called InstantCake. I don't know what YOU are talking about regarding rc.sysinit.


Apparently you just don't understand. So how is this TiVo/DirecTV fault at all for upgrading the software? If you have modified the software on your machine they have no responsibility for it to work. If you have anyone to blame it would be the people who make InstantCake for not taking the appropriate measures to protect it from upgrading.


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

lew said:


> I think you have a legitimate complaint with the InstantCake people.





rminsk said:


> If you have anyone to blame it would be the people who make InstantCake for not taking the appropriate measures to protect it from upgrading.


It's clear now that neither of you actually know what you're talking about... Point-of-Fact: InstantCake is a product of PTVupgrade. If that name sounds familiar to you (?) it might be because they are a forum sponsor? Look up in the top right of this webpage and you might even find their ad. Evidently, you "experts" didn't know who made InstantCake or anything about it either? I'd suggest that before you make statements that display your lack of knowledge, it MIGHT behoove you to do a small amount of research before making said faulty statements of fact. Not that you will listen to me, but InstantCake does come with all of the standard disclaimers and warnings about using an altered kernel. The advice that I neglected to follow was to leave the receiver's phoneline disconnected to prevent future software upgrades. Undoubtedly you will blame ME for not following instructions. I'm SURE you will. But, don't blame PTVupgrade. They make great products and offer very good service.

By failing to disconnect my phoneline for the last couple of years, I wasn't bothered with pesky nag screens telling me to plug my phoneline in. FWIW, as soon as I "fix" the kernel I will plug my receiver in and take my chances again. Those nag screens that TiVo has the LEGAL IMPERATIVE to include in the software is a royal pain in the keister... Yeah, yeah. I know, you believe that anyone who hacks their beloved TiVo deserves to be nagged... 

Discussing this issue with you much like yodeling in a cave... all that I get back from you are garbled echoes. I fully respect your right to your opinions, but your continual insistence that upgrades should not be optional and refusal to comprehend or even consider the possibility that TiVo's making upgrades optional would not be harmful is simply ridiculous. Fact is, the ONLY point you guys keep harping endlessly about is that TiVo is not OBLIGATED to do anything differently. Come on, give me a freaking break with that stuff... I have repeatedly acknowledged that TiVo is NOT obligated to make upgrades optional. What I DID say was that it would be *nice* if the upgrades were optional. So, sue me. 

We disagree... No big deal there because I do not value your comments and suspect that you still just don't "get it" and likely never will. It's a moot point for now because PTVupgrade has released a "fix" that will provide LBA48 support with receivers running v3.5 software. And, maybe, if we're lucky, TiVo won't release additional upgrades for the DSR6000 receiver. Especially upgrades that are not needed --- like this latest v3.5 upgrade. Do you even have a series1 DirecTiVo receiver?

I'm sure you two also believe that it is totally unreasonable to even desire a heads-up from TiVo if another upgrade is released? Advanced warning so that people who DO NOT want to use the upgrade can unplug their receiver's phoneline...

Okay now. How about one more posting from you about how TiVo can legally upgrade without advance notice? Or, maybe you can explain again how this latest upgrade corrected serious problems --- or --- how people who hack their TiVos deserve to have their receivers made inoperable... Or how TiVo would be swamped with tech support requests for this old receiver if the upgrade had been optional... Come on now, one more time? Have the last word... :down: :down: :down:


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

baatz said:


> It's clear now that neither of you actually know what you're talking about... Point-of-Fact: InstantCake is a product of PTVupgrade. If that name sounds familiar to you (?) it might be because they are a forum sponsor? Look up in the top right of this webpage and you might even find their ad. Evidently, you "experts" didn't know who made InstantCake or anything about it either? I'd suggest that before you make statements that display your lack of knowledge, it MIGHT behoove you to do a small amount of research before making said faulty statements of fact.


I did not mention the company because they are a sponsor of this forum. Please point out one faulty statement of fact I have made on this issue. You just can not take responsibility for the mistake you made. If you are going to modify the machine you are resposible for any problems. Not TiVo, not DirecTV, but you.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

Dale Sorel said:


> Uh, did your TiVo come with a keyboard... I didn't think so.
> 
> Whatever your mind set is, your TiVo is not a PeeCee... get it


 Not only that. Being asked if you want an upgrade doesnt always stop disaster. Any one else remember the Emachines Service pack 2 fiasco. They politely asked me if I wanted the upgrade. Since it was from windows update I figure i was safe. Wrong! Lets face it folks pcs and devices that run software are fragile like ming vases. If you want to live in the wonderfull age of computers and hard drive related devices you have to expect pit fall. AND LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT!! right now i have nearly 400 hours on my tivo and since I Know FOR A FACT that it will die someday Sooner or later Hopefully later I wont blame D*, tivo, or anyone else. Thats the way the cookie crumbles. When this one dies I will start over with a new one.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I know exactly who PTVupgrade is and of course I know they're forum sponsors. I don't consider them to be experts. AFAIK 100% of the hacks and tools they distribute came from people who post here and in other forums and AFAIK none of the hacks are the original work of the company. PTVUpgrade is a marketing company that managed to get permission from tivo to distribute images. The LBA48 kernel is the work of Todd Miller http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=83342
who allows PTVUpgrade to distribute his work.

rminsk know far more about tivo than does PTVUpgrade.

The fact that they are forum sponsors is the reason I was mild with my criticism.

There isn't any good reason for accepting tivo upgrades when you're using a LBA48 kernel. Either PTVupgrade was entirely unprofessional with their warnings and failure to block software upgrades you were were extremely stupid in not following their warnings. Other PTVUpgrade customers got upgraded because they didn't realize their system was setup for internet phone calls.

The fact that some of their customers had data corruption due to the software upgrade tells me all I need to know.

Blame yourself or blame PTVUpgrade. Tivo has never offered optional software upgrades and we agree it's extremely unlikely they'll be taking the time to change their code to make future upgrades optional.

I agree you're unit *requires optional upgrades* BUT *it's your responsibility* not tivo or DTV to make that change to your unit.



baatz said:


> It's clear now that neither of you actually know what you're talking about... Point-of-Fact: InstantCake is a product of PTVupgrade. If that name sounds familiar to you (?) it might be because they are a forum sponsor? Look up in the top right of this webpage and you might even find their ad. Evidently, you "experts" didn't know who made InstantCake or anything about it either? I'd suggest that before you make statements that display your lack of knowledge, it MIGHT behoove you to do a small amount of research before making said faulty statements of fact. Not that you will listen to me, but InstantCake does come with all of the standard disclaimers and warnings about using an altered kernel. The advice that I neglected to follow was to leave the receiver's phoneline disconnected to prevent future software upgrades. Undoubtedly you will blame ME for not following instructions. I'm SURE you will. But, don't blame PTVupgrade. They make great products and offer very good service.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

rminsk said:


> I did not mention the company because they are a sponsor of this forum. Please point out one faulty statement of fact I have made on this issue you. You just can not take responsibility for the mistake you made. If you are going to modify the machine you are resposible for any problems. Not TiVo, not DirecTV, but you.


This whole issue kind of makes me wonder if the upgrades were OPTIONAL how many would still take it and complain that D* also did not put out a warning that the upgrade was not compatible with hacked tivos  The first time I heard about hacking the tivos I thought down the line it would be trouble. My machine is hacked for a larger set of drives, and I except any problems that might come along in the future Since I upgraded It myself. Now If I sent the machine in to D* because they had an upgrade service and they sent out software that messed it Up I would be peeved! Pc's are designed for user friendly upgrades. Tivos are not so IMHO you take your chances that someday down the line Something will mess up a hacked tivo!


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

lew said:


> I know exactly who PTVupgrade is and of course I know they're forum sponsors. I don't consider them to be experts. AFAIK 100% of the hacks and tools they distribute came from people who post here and in other forums and AFAIK none of the hacks are the original work of the company. PTVUpgrade is a marketing company that managed to get permission from tivo to distribute images. The LBA48 kernel is the work of Todd Miller http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=83342
> who allows PTVUpgrade to distribute his work.
> 
> rminsk know far more about tivo than does PTVUpgrade.
> ...


You seem to have a particularly black and white view of our world.

I think we do a good job of informing our customers, up front, about the risks associated with upgrades and what can happen when an upgrade takes place.

I'll have to disagree with you when it comes to our expertise. None of you have managed as large a number of people through an upgrade like this as we have.

As for your 100% comment, you are wrong there, as well.

I certainly respect your opinion regarding 'best practices' and would ask you to consider that there are other points of view, as well. It is not as black and white as you might like to think.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

On a related note, I don't consider this to be an issue where blame needs to be laid at anyone's doorstep.

As provider of a product and service, we try to inform folks of the risks they take, however we do accept a certain amount of responsibility for ensuring that our customers have options when there are situations like this one. I consider that to be a sign of integrity.

Similarly, TiVo has an obligation, as well. Given that they have allowed aftermarket upgrades to thrive in the past 5+ years, and given that the modifications are derivatives of GPL code, they absolutely have an obligation to release modifications to the kernel under the GPL. They haven't done so, and we've gone through some unnatural acts, and with the help of Todd Miller, were able to provide an LBA48 fix, in spite of TiVo falling short. And will all that said, we are not pointing any fingers. The TiVo folks are busy; its our problem, not theirs, and we work through it -- happily, because I have a passion for this.

I am an absolute fan of personal accountability and would expect that ANYONE who is willing to take the cover off their TiVo should understand the risks associated with every aspect of upgrading a unit. I am also willing to apply that same metric to my own actions, and have acted in the most responsible possible to 'do the right thing' within the context of running a business, managing expectations, and coming to terms with the fact that you cannot be everything to everyone.

That's more than I can say for the countless others who've taken much of we've done and simply replicated it, sold it for less money on ebay, and vanished into the night.

'nuff said.


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## Dale Sorel (Dec 27, 2001)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> Pc's are designed for user friendly upgrades. Tivos are not so IMHO you take your chances that someday down the line Something will mess up a hacked tivo!


And this upgrade didn't screw with either my Weaknees upgraded HD or all the SPS codes I use.

I can't believe some of the folks here (baatz, are you listening) are still crying about a rather terrific upgrade to our machines. Get over it already


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

rminsk said:


> I did not mention the company because they are a sponsor of this forum. Please point out one faulty statement I have made on this issue you have. You just can not take responsibility for the mistake you made. If you are going to modify the machine you are resposible for any problems. Not TiVo, not DirecTV, but you.


You seem to forget that hundreds or thousands of people have done the same repair that I did. It's NOT illegal. Ask PTVupgrade.

One faulty statement? Sure, that's an easy one. To quote you exactly: 


rminsk said:


> "If you have anyone to blame it would be the people who make InstantCake for not taking the appropriate measures to protect it from upgrading."


That, is a faulty statement...

I would offer that your reasoning process regarding my "ASKING" why TiVo upgrades aren't optional is likewise faulty. You can argue 'til the TiVo fills but your position makes no sense.

Your silly arguments are boring me... Have a nice day.


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

Dale Sorel said:


> And this upgrade didn't screw with either my Weaknees upgraded HD or all the SPS codes I use.
> 
> I can't believe some of the folks here (baatz, are you listening) are still crying about a rather terrific upgrade to our machines. Get over it already


What a great endorsement... A "rather terrific upgrade"? Not that it's pertinent but, I beg to differ. The upgrade doesn't seem to provide anything "terrific" on my stock Phillips DSR6000 DirecTiVo. Nada... Zip...

The fact of the matter is that I didn't complain about the upgrade's QUALITY. My original point was to ask a simple question... "Why doesn't TiVo make upgrades an option?" Nothing more, nothing less.

Go ahead and try your best to obfuscate the point and twist/distort my question all you like. That's what most people would do in your position, because your arguments make absolutely no sense and are quite illogical.

You doth protest too much...


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

tivoupgrade said:


> On a related note, I don't consider this to be an issue where blame needs to be laid at anyone's doorstep.


I agree...

And, I'm very sorry that you got drug into this stupid argument.

As a satisfied and happy customer of yours, I believe your company is the best at what you do... I have referred several TiVo owners to your products and will continue to do so.

I take full responsibility for choosing to disregard the CLEAR warning that you included with the InstantCake --- a warning to the effect that the phoneline should be unplugged to prevent unwanted software upgrades. It was my CHOICE to do so. Not a fault of yours in any way...

I am a big fan of having choices... I chose to upgrade to a 160gb drive when one of my DirecTiVo receivers died from a hard drive failure. My choice... It's my responsibility if doing so causes me problems. Not your fault nor TiVo's fault.

I sincerely apologize to you for sicking the "dogs" on you... I'm very surprised that they attacked a "Special Forum Sponsor". All I can say is that I look forward to doing business with you in the future. You have a great company! :up:


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

baatz said:


> You seem to forget that hundreds or thousands of people have done the same repair that I did. It's NOT illegal. Ask PTVupgrade.
> 
> One faulty statement? Sure, that's an easy one. To quote you exactly:
> 
> ...


It is still illegal no matter how many people have done it. DirecTV/TiVo have not tried to enforce it but that does not make it legal. With the R10 they did make it much harder as you must modify the hardware.

The statement is not faulty in the least. If InstantCake had prevented upgrades this would have not been an issue for you.

As for "ASKING" I quoted you exactly the service agreement. How is that faulty? Why does my position not make sense?


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

rminsk said:


> It is still illegal no matter how many people have done it. DirecTV/TiVo have not tried to enforce it but that does not make it legal. With the R10 they did make it much harder as you must modify the hardware. The statement is not faulty in the least. If InstantCake had prevented upgrades this would have not been an issue for you. As for "ASKING" I quoted you exactly the service agreement. How is that faulty? Why does my position not make sense?


Stick to squirrel hunting... 

Your arrogance is impressive. Your knowledge not so much so. You should try hard not to make statements about things you really don't know about. It just makes you look bad...

Modifying a TiVo voids the warranty. Read the FINE print... In my case the TiVo in question was about six years old, so voiding the warranty was NOT an issue or concern to me.

Hey rminsk... Thanks for trying to help me understand why upgrades can't be optional, but you've failed miserably to be of any help... Your jibber-jabber isn't helpful at all.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

baatz said:


> Your arrogance is impressive. Your knowledge not so much so. You should try hard not to make statements about things you really don't know about. It just makes you look bad...


So in other words you have no argument so you just throw out personal insults... How am I being arrogant? Where have I been unknowledgable? How are my statements misleading?


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

baatz said:


> I agree...
> 
> And, I'm very sorry that you got drug into this stupid argument.
> 
> ...


No worries; I appreciate your words of encouragement, and by no means did I feel attacked or drug in.

Interestingly, the transition has been going relatively smoothly and the folks who've been put most on the spot (drive upgrade customers who have less technical knowledge and simply want their TiVo's to work) have been very happy to get fast responses to their inquiries and a viable service to keep them whole, longer term. I still sleep at night (although I have been going to bed later these days).

Thanks again,
Lou

PS We have always grappled with the issue of whether to overtly "prevent" upgrades or not. With the newest release of the Series1 software, those who purchase our networking kits will find some additional scripts present -- a simple telnet into the unit, and the typing of "upgrade_on" or "upgrade_off" and a variety of things will happen to either snub an upgrade in waiting (no nag messages either) or allow one to pass through and do its thing. so, its still in the hands of the consumer...


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

tivoupgrade said:


> PS We have always grappled with the issue of whether to overtly "prevent" upgrades or not. With the newest release of the Series1 software, those who purchase our networking kits will find some additional scripts present -- a simple telnet into the unit, and the typing of "upgrade_on" or "upgrade_off" and a variety of things will happen to either snub an upgrade in waiting (no nag messages either) or allow one to pass through and do its thing. *so, its still in the hands of the consumer...*


*

I added the bolding in the quote.

That's where I disagree. Different customers have different reasons for purchasing your upgrade scripts. Some don't want to take the time to learn and some might not even have the basic knowledge necessary. You have to assume many of those customers are looking for an automated solution. Those same customers don't really understand the potential consequences of running a standard kernel with a LBA48 hacked drive. Years ago I had a hard drive trashed because the partitioning software I used wasn't compatible with some utilities so I understand what can happen. The partitioning software was the OEM version of OnTrack that was bundled with my hard drive. The utility software was Mace utilites, a highly rated utility program. I called technical support, they were aware of the incompatibility but didn't see the need to document it even with a read me file. I have very little patience for people who don't warn customers about such risks.

When the consequences of accepting any upgrade is data corruption the only acceptable answer is turn the automatic upgrade off.
You're right--it's not black and white. I think you should be blocking the upgrade in your software--I respect the fact that you think the warning to leave the phone line unplugged is sufficient.

I think the penalty for not following your suggestion, data corruption, is rather severe but ultimately your products are tools and some users are kidding themselves into thinking they don't have to know anything about what's going on.

I'm done with this thread--People have to live with the consequences of the upgrade. I've never used your upgrade scripts so I don't really know if the problem was with your documentation or with users not following your directions and warning.*


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

rminsk said:


> So in other words you have no argument so you just throw out personal insults... How am I being arrogant? Where have I been unknowledgable? How are my statements misleading?


Well several posts up, you indicated that upgrading your TIVO was illegal.

Illegal - according to the American Heritage Dictionary is:

adj. Prohibited by law.

Please tell me which law indicates you cannot upgrade a TIVO. There is warning that opening the case voids the warranty. But what law on the books in what state prohibits upgrading your TIVO?

To say it's illegal is unknowledgeable AND misleading.

There was a clear warning from PTV - don't hook the unit up to a phone line, because you could get software upgrades that may not work with your expanded hard drive. People made a choice to ignore that warning.

A poster mention units making internet calls. Whose fault is that? The owner configures the unit. Fault lies with the person who configured it to make those calls.

Finally - TIVO needs the units of a particular type to be running a particular standardized version of software. If they are not, then the process of managing the codebase is impossible.

Plus, they may introduce new features into the daily downloads of guide data that your old software version can't handle... thus crashing your TIVO.

That's why upgrades aren't optional.

J


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## Solver (Feb 17, 2005)

Hey people, lighten up!
This is just one of the reasons why we have $600/hour lawyers.

And who really pays for these guys?


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

lew said:


> I have very little patience for people who don't warn customers about such risks.


Which is exactly why we ask folks who are about to purchase something from us to review the terms of our warranty before they make the purchase. Here is an excerpt:

_Your TiVo will always download the latest version of the available software provided you are properly connected and maintain your subscription with TiVo. Installation of our kits will not adversely affect your subscription status with TiVo or DirecTV; even if you have a lifetime service. If TiVo or DirecTV update their software, tools installed by PTVupgrade may be overwritten and require reinstallation or reconfiguration._



> I'm done with this thread--People have to live with the consequences of the upgrade. I've never used your upgrade scripts so I don't really know if the problem was with your documentation or with users not following your directions and warning.


Good, because you've already made a mountain out of a molehill here; we haven't had a single complaint (other than yours) and if even if there are some folks annoyed by the upgrade (plenty of untouched systems end up breaking, too), I don't really consider it to be a problem.

The fact is, most of our customers do take responsibility; we do more to scare away folks who might not be aware of the risks than most consumer products sold. I doubt you are a customer, and I doubt you've read the scary disclaimers we have people read when checking out, so its not clear from what position you truly can be arguing.

To me, this whole argument of yours sounds reminiscent of the "you don't deserve it unless you can do it yourself argument." That's fine for some, however I beleive in making things accessible to more people, rather than less.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

lajohn27 said:


> Well several posts up, you indicated that upgrading your TIVO was illegal.
> 
> Illegal - according to the American Heritage Dictionary is:
> 
> ...


I'm sorry I was not clear on that. Upgrading the drive is not illegal but selling the TiVo application is. Some of the 3rd party products contain an image of the TiVo software and it is illegal to sell this software without explicit permission. Also some of the modifications that have been made to the TiVo software may be considered illegal under the DMCA. It is not clear if reverse engineering the software is illegal.


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## Dale Sorel (Dec 27, 2001)

baatz said:


> The fact of the matter is that I didn't complain about the upgrade's QUALITY. My original point was to ask a simple question... "Why doesn't TiVo make upgrades an option?" Nothing more, nothing less.


You want a simple answer... because you own the box, not the software in the box. That software belongs to DirecTV, to do with as they please, whenever they want, regardless of what you've done to it.

My goodness, some people can be terribly dense


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

baatz said:


> Not that you will listen to me, but InstantCake does come with all of the standard disclaimers and warnings about using an altered kernel. The advice that I neglected to follow was to leave the receiver's phoneline disconnected to prevent future software upgrades.


Huh...


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

Dale Sorel said:


> You want a simple answer... because you own the box, not the software in the box. That software belongs to DirecTV, to do with as they please, whenever they want, regardless of what you've done to it.
> 
> My goodness, some people can be terribly dense


Dale:

Quite frankly, I'm tired of discussing this. I do agree *completely* with you on one thing though. SOME people can be terribly dense. I just don't think we agree on who is the dense one here.  I'll put my money on you. BTW, what was your "simple" answer to my "simple" question?

_"That software belongs to DirecTV, to do with as they please, whenever they want, regardless of what you've done to it."_ is NOT a satisfactory answer to my question... Nor have you been helpful at all. Which, I believe, is the idea for using these forums???

If you can, please try _really_ hard to understand me. It's really a very simple question...

*My question was and still is:* Why doesn't TiVo make their upgrades optional?

I didn't ask who the software belongs to... I also do not contest that TiVo can do with it as they PLEASE and when they PLEASE... Rephrasing my question just for you: I am simply asking why doesn't it PLEASE them to make the upgrades optional. *DUH.*

Maybe my simple question is just too difficult for you to comprehend? Hey, don't feel bad, that's okay. Even though you failed miserably, you sure gave it a whale of a try... 

How about we get to another subject??? I really don't even care much about why upgrades aren't optional. I'm sick of the entire subject. 

My next question is: Why aren't watching presidential announcements optional?


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## baatz (Dec 26, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> Huh...


How eloquent... Huh to you too.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

baatz said:


> How eloquent... Huh to you too.


I deleted my other replies but I did have to re read the statement adam went huh to over and over and over and over untill i got your point. Normaly this does not happen to me in the 20000 posts i have read over the last 3 years so I understand adams confusion.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

Most of this thread reminds me of a song from "Mary Poppins" with Weird Al Yankovic flair. Sung to the tune "Feed the Birds" " Feed the Trolls Tuppence the Trolls Tuppence, Tuppence, Tuppence the Trolls"     No names mentioned in particular  Cmon you know who u r


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## Dale Sorel (Dec 27, 2001)

baatz said:


> *My question was and still is:* Why doesn't TiVo make their upgrades optional?


I hope this answer is simple enough for you:

'Cause they don't have to.

I'm done with this conservation


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## jradosh (Jul 31, 2001)

I've read much of this thread and I think I know the answer, but I want to confirm.

I have a modified Sony T-60 (106 hours recording) that was working fine until two days ago. Now I'm stuck with "Updating Database. This may take a long time."

Am I 100% screwed? Is it now an expensive doorstop?


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

jradosh said:


> I've read much of this thread and I think I know the answer, but I want to confirm.
> 
> I have a modified Sony T-60 (106 hours recording) that was working fine until two days ago. Now I'm stuck with "Updating Database. This may take a long time."
> 
> Am I 100% screwed? Is it now an expensive doorstop?


That would be ~120 GB drive, so you shouldn't have a problem with the version 3.5 non-LBA48 kernel. You probably have a bad hard drive...


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## jradosh (Jul 31, 2001)

sbourgeo said:


> That would be ~120 GB drive, so you shouldn't have a problem with the version 3.5 non-LBA48 kernel. You probably have a bad hard drive...


If it was bad, then this software update exposed something. It was 100% fine until I got the update.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

jradosh said:


> If it was bad, then this software update exposed something. It was 100% fine until I got the update.


You could have some bad sectors on the dormant partition that the 3.5 OS was loaded onto...


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

Finally I see a pending restart on my Sony SAT-T60 series 1 unit (100% stock BTW).


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

I just got my brothers HDVR2 up and running. Has 3.1 on it. Is this like a slow rollout thing or is there a way to make it update? I'm not familiar with DirecTV units, this is the first one I have played with. My next task is to get rid of the nag screen from having no land line hooked to it.


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## grecorj (Feb 6, 2002)

SnakeEyes: You can simply force a daily call; after the call check the System Info page and see if you see a "pending restart" message; if so, restart and it will update.

One note: if you force a call and don't get the update, don't bother trying again for 24 hours as you'll just be wasting your time.


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

No land line, guess i will have to run it over to another's house.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

Budget_HT said:


> Finally I see a pending restart on my Sony SAT-T60 series 1 unit (100% stock BTW).


Other than having to reset my favorite channels, everything came up fine on the 3.5 software.


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