# Does anyone think the THR22 is worse than the R10?



## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

I actually just switched back to the R10, still have a standard television in that particular room and while I was going to switch to high def, after using the THR22 for a day I will wait longer as I found it to be a step lower in quality from the R10.

There is an annoying screen saver that kicks in if you have any live television paused for a few minutes and there is no way to shut it off. When you hit the fast forward button there is a delay and awkward stammer start to it, the R10 fast forwards in a completely smooth fashion.

Instead of hitting the down button on the remote you have to hit a live tv button to switch tuners, minor issue I know but the new remote is not better than the R10 one. 

Unless there is an option for this that I missed you can't just hit record in a one touch like fashion from the R10, the THR22 takes you to a separate screen with other options and you must highlight record and press enter.

There were a couple of other issues that I can't remember but overall I felt this update was clearly designed on the cheap and it is depressing as I'm not sure how long Directv will support the R10 and I do prefer Directv over other options but I love Tivo.

Maybe Tivo will one day allow you to use their own brand receivers with Directv or perhaps design a better Directv/Tivo combination receiver?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The fast-forward issue is MPEG4 vs MPEG2. I have a THR22 and have had DTiVos back to the DSR6000 (but not the R10). I find the THR22 to be an adequate substitute for the HR10. The UI is pretty much the same as the older DTiVos with the same recording features, and the remote is almost identical. I haven't seen the tuner switch issue you describe.

I will agree that the THR22 is not all it could be, but I'd never consider going back to an R10. I do like the non-TiVo HR44 a lot.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

stevel said:


> The fast-forward issue is MPEG4 vs MPEG2. I have a THR22 and have had DTiVos back to the DSR6000 (but not the R10). I find the THR22 to be an adequate substitute for the HR10. The UI is pretty much the same as the older DTiVos with the same recording features, and the remote is almost identical. I haven't seen the tuner switch issue you describe.
> 
> I will agree that the THR22 is not all it could be, but I'd never consider going back to an R10. I do like the non-TiVo HR44 a lot.


But where is Tivo going in relation to Directv, I thought I might have read a rumor about a new combo device, if not will Tivo ever sell a product that can be used on Directv but totally independent, meaning a Roamio that can hook up to any Directv receiver?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I very much doubt we will ever see another DirecTV compatible TiVo.


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## NGeorge (Feb 27, 2004)

stevel said:


> I very much doubt we will ever see another DirecTV compatible TiVo.


I tend to agree... Although depending on the agreement they come up with around 2018 when the current one expires--if they don't decide to just drop service on SD DirecTivos and the THR-22 and move everyone to a D* box--we may see a Series 4/Premiere DirecTV device show up sometime around 2020.

I say that mainly in jest - - except that is how the THR-22 happened... DirecTV wanted to ensure that service to SD Tivos didn't get dropped - - and that Tivo wouldn't sue them over their DVR patents - - I also think there was some sort of a discount involved for service fees of D* commuted a certain amount of marketing and commercials (which they did for a couple years)--as part of the deal, D* had to release a new box and market it, thus the THR-22...

So I think a future D* box depends on if D* wants to keep having a 'bastard stepchild' box available to keep their Tivo subscribers happy, and to keep Tivo from charging higher license fees/from suing them for patents... So who knows. Back when the Tivo lawsuits were going, they also targeted Dish and won -- but Dish just ponied up for licensing fees vs. releasing the box -- but they also didn't have an existing subscriber base to maintain.

I've often wondered if it was technically possible to release a Roamio with a smartcard slot and satellite tuner rather than a cablecard - - FTA satellite receivers often include a smartcard slot to decode Conditional Access for various subscriptions services using various types of encryption, so as long as the box could receive the signals in the bands that D* and E* use, it would just be a matter of getting the correct access card and having it authorized - - of course the bigger issue is if the satellite companies would actually go for this... I think E* would be easier than D* since they use NagraVision and broadcast a DVB compliant signal, but IIRC the latest version of NSS VideoGuard that D* uses is now DVB compatible as well - - so I think technically it could be done if they would actually activate them...


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

The only reason the THR-22 exists is because TiVo contractually agreed NOT to sue DirecTV as they did just about everyone else. That ship has sailed and we will never see another TiVo for DirecTV because TiVo requires its "partners" to pay for almost everything from development to marketing. Mike White was always dismissive of the THR-22 in conference calls. It was as if he found new subtle phrases to put the THR-22 down and pointing out what the Genie could do that the THR-22 could not. He has no interest in giving TiVo any more money and would prefer his subscribers to get his Genie product.

Keep in mind the THR-22 lacks several of the great features that are on the retail TiVo models such as networking/transferring, OTT streaming services, and more. Now, if the THR-22 had been based on the S4 instead of S3, it might have been a little bit more compelling.

2018 is going to be a very interesting year for TiVo and all of us.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The THR22 was based on the HR22, not the S3, though hardware-wise, the two are comparable. From the TiVo perspective, it's a Series 2 DTiVo.

I'd happily give up my THR22 and stick with the HR44, but my wife is happy with the narrow TiVo feature set of the THR22.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

Not that it would ever happen, and heaven forbid D* wanting to make all of the TiVo owners rejoice, But if only D* would just enable networking feature of the THR22. 
If they did that, I would add an HR44 to the stable of DVR's I have and network them all together. That sure would be nice....


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

BOBCAT said:


> Not that it would ever happen, and heaven forbid D* wanting to make all of the TiVo owners rejoice, But if only D* would just enable networking feature of the THR22.
> If they did that, I would add an HR44 to the stable of DVR's I have and network them all together. That sure would be nice....


But that would enhance the THR-22 and devalue the GENIE DirecTV would prefer you to have . No enhancements ever coming to the THR-22. I saw in another thread that when the customer canceled, DirecTV did NOT want the THR-22 back, just the access card. I think that tells us the future of the THR-22 in DirecTV's mind: it will be replaced by a DirecTV product as soon as this current agreement with TiVo expires. I would feel very sad for those THR-22 users who love their TiVo experience on DirecTV, but there are costs to partnering with TiVo, and that was the big sticking point on why almost every other MVPD just chose NOT to partner with TiVo. Yes, DirecTV did in the early years because DirecTV loved to spend money (under GM/Hughes ownership) and TiVo was the tops DVR and it made sense to have TiVo do the honors since DirecTV didn't do harely anything in-house in those years, and DirecTV was all about the premium experience in those days, so TiVo fit in perfectly. Now, the only parthers are small MSO's who can't provide decent DVR's, and the Comcast romance was about leading TiVo on just so Comcast would not get sued. At the time, Tom Rogers did say that anyone who would not "talk" to them about a TiVo partnership would be *SUED!* So, Comcast talked, and DirecTV had TiVo contractually agree NEVER to sue them in reference to TiVo patents in exchange for what would be the very, very late well past original availability date (by years?) THR-22 when S4's had already been out a while, and everybody else got sued. Of course, Dish got the dubious honor of being sued first because Dish had the most DVR's out in the field at that time and TiVo wanted Dish to serve as an example to the rest of the MVPD's and STB makers who would, in fact, be sued. FWIW Tom Rogers and Charlie Ergen never lost their freindship during the entire patent fight nor did either take the patent "disagreement" (as Ergen referred to it) personally. It was all business. In fact, when the settlement was reached and the first wire transfer completed, Egen said he expected Tom to buy him lunch the next time they get together. .


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

stevel said:


> The THR22 was based on the HR22, not the S3, though hardware-wise, the two are comparable. From the TiVo perspective, it's a Series 2 DTiVo.
> 
> I'd happily give up my THR22 and stick with the HR44, but my wife is happy with the narrow TiVo feature set of the THR22.


Umm, yes, I understand that, but my point was that the TiVo experience on the THR-22 was a Series 3 experience/UI, or am I wrong on that, too. Please correct me, I will not be insulted. I prefer to learn from those who know . The Series 3 really was an enhanced S2 in many respects, I agree. Even the UI was a strectched out S2 UI with better fonts and more refinement of the menus, I agree, but it was sufficiently different to deserve its own Seires because of its HD recording capability and the superior design and build of the orginal S3 648 OLED box.

Please see my post above about DirecTV not wanting the THR-22 back from a customer who canceled service. My, that is NOT good news.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The UI experience on the THR22 is strictly Series 2-level. It's HR10-250 with a couple of added features.

DirecTV often says not to bother returning boxes that aren't current models. They have more than enough stock of THR22 to meet forseeable needs. What I am uncertain of is the claim that if DirecTV says not to return the box then it is automatically "owned". I don't think that's the case.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

stevel said:


> The UI experience on the THR22 is strictly Series 2-level. It's HR10-250 with a couple of added features. DirecTV often says not to bother returning boxes that aren't current models. They have more than enough stock of THR22 to meet forseeable needs. What I am uncertain of is the claim that if DirecTV says not to return the box then it is automatically "owned". I don't think that's the case.


You're correct, it still isn't "owned". The original lessee has to pay $135 to officially own it, and then and only then can it be transferred to another account. I just got off the phone with them again and this was reconfirmed.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

Well, If D* ever kills off the THR22's to force everyone to go to one of their DVR's it will be the day I drop D* and go to Astound, now Wave. 
They just ran fiber down our street and now going door to door trying to sell the service.
Not a bad deal, $30 a month for the 1st year and then it goes up to 40. That includes internet. They use TiVo's also.
May do it anyway if att makes any changes to the service or if there is a price increase.

Some time ago, there was talk about D* having a duel GUI DVR that you could select their GUI or the TiVo GUI when initially configuring a new unit. 
Guess it wasn't true.
It's too bad that D* treats the THR22 as an unwanted child.
Perhaps att will have a better attitude about the THR22. 

Also....
A friend of mine had a HR34 that failed and D* replaced it with a HR44. That unit sure is small.
Does anyone know if it is using a solid state drive? or on board non volatile memory for program storage?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Regular hard disk in the HR44. But the firmware is in NVRAM.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

Thanks Steve.


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## Chuck_IV (Jan 1, 2002)

It would be nice if Tivo programmers gave a seminar to Directv programmers on how to write EFFICIENT code.

I have had Directv for the last 16 years and just switched back to Charter(huge cost savings). I never realized how painfully slow the Directv DVRs had become(actually I have at times) until I used not only a Roamio but even Charter's own DVR.

Between how slow opening my HR34's guide had become to changing to the wrong channel probably THOUSANDS of times (type 265, box reacts....2...........6 times up off to channel 26......5 now off to channel 5) it is refreshing to have a responsive DVR again.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

I'm still using the Directv R10 Tivo but soon I will have to use the THR-22 Directv Tivo, I'm hoping the fast forward situation is more smooth than how it was on that first day.

However I was thinking about using the Genie and Genie wireless in order to remove any wiring on the second floor. If I was to leave Tivo entirely, what would I be missing? Part of the reason I kept using Tivo was that I use both tuners often and I need the ability to pause between both live tuners and from what I read none of the Directv DVR's were able to do this or it was not done in a smooth way, is this still true?

Do the Diretcv DVR's have 30 second skip, is the fast forward better now and not jumpy, any other major things that I would lose?

Does the wireless Genie mini run effectively or is there problems with it? If you hook the main receiver up and the bridge, is that all you need? Thanks for your help.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The DirecTV DVRs allow you to choose between "skip" and "slip". I would very much recommend the Genie over the THR22 (I have both).


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

stevel said:


> The DirecTV DVRs allow you to choose between "skip" and "slip". I would very much recommend the Genie over the THR22 (I have both).


Thanks but what about the ability to cross between 2 live tuners easily, pause 1 or pause both etc. etc.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Thanks but what about the ability to cross between 2 live tuners easily, pause 1 or pause both etc. etc.


The DTV DVRs have what is called "Double Play". You hit the down arrow twice to activate and that gives you the dual buffers, which you switch between also using the down arrow. It automatically turns off after 2 hours of inactivity. The Genie also has PiP/PoP using this technology which I love during football especially, being able to put my main game on the big side and NFL Red Zone on the smaller one.



stevel said:


> The DirecTV DVRs allow you to choose between "skip" and "slip". I would very much recommend the Genie over the THR22 (I have both).


I agree, genie is better than DirecTV's TiVo offering. I also have both.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> The DTV DVRs have what is called "Double Play". You hit the down arrow twice to activate and that gives you the dual buffers, which you switch between also using the down arrow. It automatically turns off after 2 hours of inactivity. The Genie also has PiP/PoP using this technology which I love during football especially, being able to put my main game on the big side and NFL Red Zone on the smaller one.
> 
> I agree, genie is better than DirecTV's TiVo offering. I also have both.


OK, let's say it has turned off and you hit the down arrow twice to reactivate it, does it immediately give you at least 30 minutes of past history on the other tuner or does it start to build up once you hit it? Or is there no other tuner when you reactivate it for it to refer to its history? Sorry but this is important and I need to know exactly how it works.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Gordon Gekko said:


> OK, let's say it has turned off and you hit the down arrow twice to reactivate it, does it immediately give you at least 30 minutes of past history on the other tuner or does it start to build up once you hit it? Or is there no other tuner when you reactivate it for it to refer to its history? Sorry but this is important and I need to know exactly how it works.


I've never tested that but I believe it starts the buffer from the point that you activate it. Maybe stevel would know. He seems to be the resident expert here. Or search over on one of the satellite forums or AVS.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> I've never tested that but I believe it starts the buffer from the point that you activate it. Maybe stevel would know. He seems to be the resident expert here. Or search over on one of the satellite forums or AVS.


From researching other threads it seems to start the buffer once you activate it which makes sense but I thought because some of the Directv receivers offer you 72 hour history on any channel they had a way to go back in time on any channel for 90 minutes once you activated it.

I will stay with the R-10/THR-22 for now as I utilize the 2 tuner live buffers often and I don't want it to end 2 hours after activation.

Perhaps with the Diretcv/AT&T merger they will finally allow a TIVO Bolt to work with Directv but that is probably wishful thinking.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Gordon Gekko said:


> ......... Perhaps with the Diretcv/AT&T merger they will finally allow a TIVO Bolt to work with Directv but that is probably wishful thinking.


Only if TiVo implements the IP capability like that used for U-Verse and then DirecTV offers its programming through their U-Verse systems.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I never use the dual buffer feature and almost never watch live TV, so I can't help with that one. I do know that the HRxx buffer is 90 minutes, not 30, but as with TiVo, if the show really matters to you, press Record, as otherwise the other tuner may be taken from you. Of course, with the Genies there are five tuners, not two.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

stevel said:


> I very much doubt we will ever see another DirecTV compatible TiVo.


It will only happen if the replacement for CableCard includes satellite.



Series3Sub said:


> I would feel very sad for those THR-22 users who love their TiVo experience on DirecTV, but there are costs to partnering with TiVo, and that was the big sticking point on why almost every other MVPD just chose NOT to partner with TiVo.


That was a stupid decision on the large MSO's parts. Comcast spent a fortune developing X1, and it's still not nearly as good as an off-the-shelf TiVo. I think part of the problem is that Comcast fundamentally doesn't want to sell a DVR-centric experience. They want to put XoD, Live TV, and DVR on an equal footing, which is what X1 does, even though that's not the best TV experience.



HarperVision said:


> Only if TiVo implements the IP capability like that used for U-Verse and then DirecTV offers its programming through their U-Verse systems.


U-Verse is still a totally different system. Even if they synchronized the contracts and thus channel lineup, U-Verse's picture quality will still be in the crapper with DirecTV leading the market.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

On a side note has anybody had any experience with the R10 stuttering and having small picture drop outs even with high 90's signal on all transponders, would an unplug reset possibly solve this? If you unplug it and take out the card will you lose your recorded programs?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

You won't lose your programs. But I doubt a reboot will help.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

stevel said:


> You won't lose your programs. But I doubt a reboot will help.


Well so far the channels that were pixelating are all clear now so hopefully it will continue.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

Now I am back to the same problem and I am trying to post on the Directv forums but for some reason it is not going through, here is a copy of what I am trying to post to see if somebody here can help.

I have the Directv/Tivo R10 and I would like to keep it working as long as possible. In the past Directv software issues has caused the receiver to reboot at :28 minutes and :58 minutes past every hour. This happened twice, the most recent one was this past year and when I called Directv every representative insisted this was a receiver issue but one google search proved many R10 users were having this problem and Directv finally fixed this software glitch. Also there was a strange issue recently where Bloomberg channel 353 was the only channel causing a receiver reboot as well.

Now the problem is severe pixelation and picture cut outs on specific channels. The repeated problems seem to be occuring on the New York locals with 2 being the worst followed by channel 4 and channel 7. And yesterday I started to have a problem on 351 and now Fox News 360. However the west version of CBS 391 has no such issues. I called into Directv's technical department and they escalated it to an engineering/local channels team but I wanted to see if any other R10 users are having this problem and/or if anybody has a possible solution that can be tried on my end. I already tried rebooting the receiver and having Directv send a reauthorization to the receiver.

When the pixelation occurs it sometimes flashes a searching for satellite signal message. In the summer I replaced an older dish with a slimline 3 lnb (non swim) and recently had a tech out here to recalibrate the dish because it had to be temporarily removed for roof work. All transponders on 101 have signals above 95 with the exception of 3 and 5 which is around 83. The 4 wire combo that arrives from the dish is new, multiswitch is new but the 2 wires going to the 2 tuners on the R10 are old.

Thanks for your help.


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## cypherstream (Oct 27, 2007)

Maybe the answer for AT&T/D* to not canabalize Genie sales, is to work with Tivo to port a Mini client, that uses an existing, installed HR44/54 genie for recordings and tuning. The Tivo "mini" set top box would just wrap its own Tivo UI and supplimental features around the live or recorded audio/video content.

In theory it would be a neat system to mix and match 4k genie mini and tivo mini clients off an HR44/54.

Though with the AT&T merger I don't know what the future holds. They seem to indicate unifying the experience between Sat and IP, TV, tablet and mobile. I suspect new software is already in the works, and also new hardware that can in some situations support a U-Verse IPTV signal for those in U-Verse wired areas that do not have clear southern sky exposure for a dish.

I think the THR22 is a failure. Genie is so much better in many ways. They should have ported a 6 tuner Roamio to DirecTV, but then when Mike White was in charge god forbid you cannibalize genie sales with his PepsiCo mentality. A 6-tuner roamio with tivo mini support on a DirecTV system would have been extremely popular. NFL Sunday Ticket is already a huge force for DirecTV, now bring all the Tivo lovers to the table? I think it could have been a win-win and Mike could not see through that. Maybe Randall Stephenson / John Stankey will see some value as AT&T Wireless has an open standard network. You can buy any variety of iPhones, Android devices, Windows phones, etc... and it still works on the network. Maybe give that same kind of variety to the TV space and let users choose different models (Genies, Tivo's, Moxi's, whatever anyone would build). It works extremely well for AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile, Sprint and others. People pay upfront for the experience they want, or lock in contracts to subsidize the hardware and AT&T can keep seeing those monthly checks coming in $$$$.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

cypherstream said:


> Maybe the answer for AT&T/D* to not canabalize Genie sales, is to work with Tivo to port a Mini client, that uses an existing, installed HR44/54 genie for recordings and tuning. The Tivo "mini" set top box would just wrap its own Tivo UI and supplimental features around the live or recorded audio/video content.
> 
> In theory it would be a neat system to mix and match 4k genie mini and tivo mini clients off an HR44/54.
> 
> ...


What if the FCC rules that consumers should have freedom when it comes to the Set Top Box, I believe they are voting on that soon, would that not pave the way for Tivo to have the ability to develop their own product that would work with Directv?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

cypherstream said:


> Maybe the answer for AT&T/D* to not canabalize Genie sales, is to work with Tivo to port a Mini client, that uses an existing, installed HR44/54 genie for recordings and tuning. The Tivo "mini" set top box would just wrap its own Tivo UI and supplimental features around the live or recorded audio/video content.
> 
> In theory it would be a neat system to mix and match 4k genie mini and tivo mini clients off an HR44/54.


That's an interesting idea, but TiVo uses a different scheduling system, among other things, so it wouldn't really be a TiVo, although I guess you could argue that the DirecTV WHDVR is just as good, if not better than TiVo on the back end, and all you'd want is the GUI from TiVo slapped on top of DirecTV's back end. I don't see why DirecTV needs to protect the Genie from cannibalization if they still control the hardware, and still sell the service to go with it. I don't see why they couldn't let TiVo make a THR54 and corresponding clients.

I wonder if it is theoretically possible to allow the THR22 to interface with the HR20/21/22/23/24/34/44/54 WHDVR, or if the software is different enough that the files are actually incompatible? They obviously couldn't share scheduling or anything else, just streaming shows from one box to the other. That, and an update to the Roamio-style Haxe UI would be great, but it's probably become a chicken-and-egg problem at this point.

However, none of that is going to happen, and TiVo users are going to have to wait until the CableCard replacement come around, which, if it includes DBS, will solve the problem once and for all.

Until then, it's DirecTV or TiVo. You can't have your cake and eat it too, unfortunately.



> Though with the AT&T merger I don't know what the future holds. They seem to indicate unifying the experience between Sat and IP, TV, tablet and mobile. I suspect new software is already in the works, and also new hardware that can in some situations support a U-Verse IPTV signal for those in U-Verse wired areas that do not have clear southern sky exposure for a dish.


I think they want to use the same software on both, but I doubt that they are going to start rolling out boxes with DBS tuners and SWiM to people using IPTV, which requires very little in terms of hardware. Plus, HPNA and DECA aren't compatible with each other. It's possible that if you're in a U-Verse area, your DirecTV box could get PEG channels, subchannels and other stuff not available on DBS via IPTV, while getting everything else through the high bandwidth satellites.



> I think the THR22 is a failure. Genie is so much better in many ways. They should have ported a 6 tuner Roamio to DirecTV, but then when Mike White was in charge god forbid you cannibalize genie sales with his PepsiCo mentality. A 6-tuner roamio with tivo mini support on a DirecTV system would have been extremely popular. NFL Sunday Ticket is already a huge force for DirecTV, now bring all the Tivo lovers to the table? I think it could have been a win-win and Mike could not see through that. Maybe Randall Stephenson / John Stankey will see some value as AT&T Wireless has an open standard network. You can buy any variety of iPhones, Android devices, Windows phones, etc... and it still works on the network. Maybe give that same kind of variety to the TV space and let users choose different models (Genies, Tivo's, Moxi's, whatever anyone would build). It works extremely well for AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile, Sprint and others. People pay upfront for the experience they want, or lock in contracts to subsidize the hardware and AT&T can keep seeing those monthly checks coming in $$$$.


That's nice in theory, and true, but AT&T is going the opposite direction. They aren't activating VoLTE or Wifi calling on unbranded phones, and a lot of unbranded phones don't have all the LTE bands AT&T is rolling out (where there is an AT&T banded version, it seems AT&T purposely messed up the unbranded versions, where there isn't, it's on the manufacturer to support them all).


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

stevel said:


> The fast-forward issue is MPEG4 vs MPEG2. I have a THR22 and have had DTiVos back to the DSR6000 (but not the R10). I find the THR22 to be an adequate substitute for the HR10. The UI is pretty much the same as the older DTiVos with the same recording features, and the remote is almost identical. I haven't seen the tuner switch issue you describe.
> 
> I will agree that the THR22 is not all it could be, but I'd never consider going back to an R10. I do like the non-TiVo HR44 a lot.


Due to some installation issues I have decided to go with the SWM13 LNB for the one wire entry and greater flexibility for the future. While I can still use the THR22 with this setup I am considering switching to an HR44. If it has a constant 90 minute live tuner on 1 tuner I can live with that and then activate the 2nd tuner live when needed. How is the fast forward with the HR44? In reading some reviews about the Genie, some have been critical of it and have written about many bugs, is the HR44 highly reviewed? How is the SWM LNB in general, any issues or is there no qualitative difference?

Also right now I am paying $10 HD fee, $5 Tivo fee, and it says DVR fee of $0 because it is included in base package. I never had to pay Tivo or DVR fee because I had a lifetime Tivo for free with the R10, I wonder did this carry over and that is why they are not charging for the DVR fee or is this because of some credits I received? Some people have claimed that the Tivo for life waiver carries over to the THR22, others have said it does not or it depends on the rep, I'm almost hesitant to call and have something get messed up.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

cypherstream said:


> They should have ported a 6 tuner Roamio to DirecTV


Had Tivo even hinted at something like that, DirecTV would have run from the room screaming in terror.

What DirecTV wanted was a DirecTivo HR10-250, significantly degraded, not integrated in any way with DirecTV's program portability and not with any of the DirecTivo HR10-250s open platform capabilites. That's what they got.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

That's not how I would put it. (And I would disagree with the notion that the THR22 is in any way "degraded" from the HR10-250.) Rather, TiVo was contracted to port their then-current DVR software to the then-current DirecTV hardware. Keep in mind that this was still in the "Series 2" timeframe. For whatever reason, it took far longer to deliver than expected and when the THR22 did finally arrive, it was stuck back in the HR10 world as far as functionality went. As for "open platform HR10" - I haven't a clue what you're referring to.

The THR22 has some features the HR10 never did - including networking support and remote programming, but only one of the features the Series 3 got (Swivel Search), and some other added features (VOD) never worked.

If you were happy with the HR10, then the THR22 is fine.

As for the HR44, it is very well thought of. (I have both the HR44 and THR22). As for SWM13, not a lot of people have that, but the other SWM models have been without issue.

There never was a "TiVo fee" before the THR22. If you had lifetime service on the R10 you should be exempt from the TiVo fee as well - contact DirecTV about that.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

The THR22 is a complete joke. By the time it was available, it was completely irrelevant. True, it's everything that the HR10-250 was but with MPEG-4 support, but by the time the THR22 came around a standalone 2-tuner DVR was an irrelevant piece of history.

It's too bad that TiVo and DirecTV couldn't get together and design DVRs, but for whatever reason, they didn't, so now people have to choose whether to keep TiVo or get DirecTV with Genie.

And SWiM 13 is pretty sick. An HR54 and 3 HR24s all on a single wire. That's impressive. No 119 support, but I believe 119 is all international stuff now, and english language packages are available on the 99c/101/103c arc, which smooths things out a lot for places like Hartford-New Haven, where 110 and 119 are getting pretty low in the sky, and we have a ton of trees everywhere.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

Bigg said:


> The THR22 is a complete joke. By the time it was available, it was completely irrelevant. True, it's everything that the HR10-250 was but with MPEG-4 support, but by the time the THR22 came around a standalone 2-tuner DVR was an irrelevant piece of history.
> 
> It's too bad that TiVo and DirecTV couldn't get together and design DVRs, but for whatever reason, they didn't, so now people have to choose whether to keep TiVo or get DirecTV with Genie.
> 
> And SWiM 13 is pretty sick. An HR54 and 3 HR24s all on a single wire. That's impressive. No 119 support, but I believe 119 is all international stuff now, and english language packages are available on the 99c/101/103c arc, which smooths things out a lot for places like Hartford-New Haven, where 110 and 119 are getting pretty low in the sky, and we have a ton of trees everywhere.


Yes I have finally come to the realization that the Genie HR44 is the superior product based on everything I have read here and elsewhere, although there are some minor things missing on the Genie like a list guide, having to press pause before fast forwarding, limitations on how many season passes you can have, no constant dual live tuners, no ability to retrieve deleted recordings.

But the 90 minute Genie one tuner live buffer vs. the 30 minute Tivo is vastly superior and the 5 tuner deal eliminates any worry if you record more than two things especially during primetime and the overall recording capacity is a big deal.

I have read conflicting things about the Directv Nomad, can someone transfer their recordings to an Ipod Classic/Touch/Phone/Tablet, if so that is a pretty cool advantage as well especially if you want to catch up on shows while traveling.

Clearly Directv has stacked the deck to destroy any chance Tivo could gain a significant number of new subscribers through their service.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Yes I have finally come to the realization that the Genie HR44 is the superior product based on everything I have read here and elsewhere, although there are some minor things missing on the Genie like a list guide, having to press pause before fast forwarding, limitations on how many season passes you can have, no constant dual live tuners, no ability to retrieve deleted recordings. But the 90 minute Genie one tuner live buffer vs. the 30 minute Tivo is vastly superior and the 5 tuner deal eliminates any worry if you record more than two things especially during primetime and the overall recording capacity is a big deal. I have read conflicting things about the Directv Nomad, can someone transfer their recordings to an Ipod Classic/Touch/Phone/Tablet, if so that is a pretty cool advantage as well especially if you want to catch up on shows while traveling. Clearly Directv has stacked the deck to destroy any chance Tivo could gain a significant number of new subscribers through their service.


Don't know what and where you're hearing this, but the Genie of course has a recordings list, a guide and you certainly don't have to hit pause in order to fast forward, unless of course you're watching live TV and have to pause for awhile before you can then FF back to live, etc.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> Don't know what and where you're hearing this, but the Genie of course has a recordings list, a guide and you certainly don't have to hit pause in order to fast forward, unless of course you're watching live TV and have to pause for awhile before you can then FF back to live, etc.


The pause thing was written in the user manual, if you are watching live television and you pause for 30 minutes, press play and then commercials come on, can you just press fast forward or do you have to hit pause before you hit fast forward?

From the user manual: You cannot fast forward during live tv until you pause or rewind a program.

Now if they mean that literally, that it is completely live of course you can't fast forward but if it means that while watching a live buffer you always have to hit pause first as in my above example, that would be annoying but it seems like this manual is just stating the obvious, that if it is 3:55 pm and you are watching live television, you can't fast forward to 4:00 pm, why they felt the need to write that is beyond me.

￼￼￼I never wrote anything about a recordings list and I never wrote that the Genie has no guide, I wrote that the Genie does not have a list guide, it only has a grid guide which goes from left to right, the list guide option on the Directv Tivo is a much faster way of looking into the future for a particular channel, unless the Genie has added this option recently.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I have the Nomad (now called GenieGo). It works fine, though it takes a while to do the transcoding and transfer.

The Genies have a 100 "season pass" limit, and indeed having five tuners means rarely having an issue with conflicts. Note also that you can hook up a 2TB (maybe larger?) external drive and get a LOT more storage capacity.

Haven't noticed any issues with fast-forwarding.

The bit about pause is just like TiVos - you can't fast forward live TV - you have to be in a recording or somewhere back in the buffer. Once you have some buffer, there's no problem just pressing fast-forward.

One big advantage the Genie has over the THR22 is that On Demand works.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Gordon Gekko said:


> The pause thing was written in the user manual, if you are watching live television and you pause for 30 minutes, press play and then commercials come on, can you just press fast forward or do you have to hit pause before you hit fast forward? From the user manual: You cannot fast forward during live tv until you pause or rewind a program. Now if they mean that literally, that it is completely live of course you can't fast forward but if it means that while watching a live buffer you always have to hit pause first as in my above example, that would be annoying but it seems like this manual is just stating the obvious, that if it is 3:55 pm and you are watching live television, you can't fast forward to 4:00 pm, why they felt the need to write that is beyond me. I never wrote anything about a recordings list and I never wrote that the Genie has no guide, I wrote that the Genie does not have a list guide, it only has a grid guide which goes from left to right, the list guide option on the Directv Tivo is a much faster way of looking into the future for a particular channel, unless the Genie has added this option recently.


Yes, of course you can't fast forward what hasn't even happened yet. As Steve said, that's how any DVR works, but it seems you already know that, so not sure why it was even a question?

Thanks for clearing up the guide question you were asking. Yes, I didn't understand what you were asking.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I suspect the FF question was either a misunderstanding of what was in the manual, or the manual was poorly worded.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Gordon Gekko said:


> The pause thing was written in the user manual, if you are watching live television and you pause for 30 minutes, press play and then commercials come on, can you just press fast forward or do you have to hit pause before you hit fast forward?
> 
> From the user manual: You cannot fast forward during live tv until you pause or rewind a program.
> 
> Now if they mean that literally, that it is completely live of course you can't fast forward but if it means that while watching a live buffer you always have to hit pause first as in my above example, that would be annoying but it seems like this manual is just stating the obvious, that if it is 3:55 pm and you are watching live television, you can't fast forward to 4:00 pm, why they felt the need to write that is beyond me.


I think that's in there literally for idiots who think that a DVR is a time machine. The problem is, the casing is too small for the jigawatt flux capacitor, and I think it would interfere with the channel alignment of SWiM when it reaches full power.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Bigg said:


> the casing is too small for the jigawatt flux capacitor


Nonsense. The jigawatt version would be overkill. Your point about channel alignment, however, is spot on.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

Bigg said:


> I think that's in there literally for idiots who think that a DVR is a time machine. The problem is, the casing is too small for the jigawatt flux capacitor, and I think it would interfere with the channel alignment of SWiM when it reaches full power.


The sole reason I asked about this was that I could not understand why a writer felt the need to include the obvious in a user manual and it was highlighted more than once as this was something noteworthy to be aware of.

And yes sadly no gambling fortunes will be reaped from the Directv Genie.


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## cypherstream (Oct 27, 2007)

Yeah I think the HR44/54 Genie is better in every way. If you are looking for a list view of whats on a particular channel, in the guide arrow left to the channel and press ok. It shows from top down everything on that channel.

The on demand is nice and you can even start programs over from the beginning on certain channels (dependent on a speedy internet connection). I believe the rumor is that AT&T will eventually add a feature that if there is signal disruption due to rain fade, bad lnb, cut coax, etc... and it has a fast enough internet connection, it will tap into the u-verse IPTV stream to get you past the outage. Start over feature and VOD already uses the internet conneciton, so really what's the difference, you know? Also the DirecTV smartphone, tablet and website allows streaming live TV, so TV channels (at least a good portion of them) are already encoded in a live style format and made available in an IP transport. It's just getting this to the box and the appropriate logic to switch back and forth on signal disruption.

I don't think you'll see an updated Tivo anymore on DirecTV. AT&T keeps touting this "unified next generation platform for both U-Verse and DirecTV moving forward later in 2016". Seems all their focus is going to be an evolution of the DirecTV platform and folding it into U-Verse or brand new CPE that works on both services. 

It's too bad for Tivo because there's quite a following for DirecTV users, and also the exclusive NFL Sunday Ticket. Tivo looses out to quite a large group of potential subscribers. Now maybe if AT&T creates a gateway box that presents all the signals in a standard IP format that Tivo could write software to speak to, maybe someday... but I don't see an incentive anymore (unless government mandated by AllVid or something like it).


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

cypherstream said:


> I believe the rumor is that AT&T will eventually add a feature that if there is signal disruption due to rain fade, bad lnb, cut coax, etc... and it has a fast enough internet connection, it will tap into the u-verse IPTV stream to get you past the outage.


Do you really think it will be enabled on the public internet? I thought it would just be on the U-Verse network?



> I don't think you'll see an updated Tivo anymore on DirecTV. AT&T keeps touting this "unified next generation platform for both U-Verse and DirecTV moving forward later in 2016". Seems all their focus is going to be an evolution of the DirecTV platform and folding it into U-Verse or brand new CPE that works on both services.


Sounds to me like they want to use the same software (i.e. Genie) on U-Verse IPTV. I can't imagine using the same hardware, as the SWiM tuners must cost a pretty penny compared to not having tuners on U-Verse, and U-Verse uses HPNA, whereas DirecTV uses DECA for networking.



> It's too bad for Tivo because there's quite a following for DirecTV users, and also the exclusive NFL Sunday Ticket. Tivo looses out to quite a large group of potential subscribers. Now maybe if AT&T creates a gateway box that presents all the signals in a standard IP format that Tivo could write software to speak to, maybe someday... but I don't see an incentive anymore (unless government mandated by AllVid or something like it).


That's the thing. AT&T is not particularly friendly to outside devices. They will only do it if the government mandates it. It's unfortunate for TiVo fans for more than just Sunday Ticket. DirecTV has the best channel lineup in the industry, and the HD channel lineup will soon be expanding to be on par with FIOS and U-Verse as well. Cable is pathetic. Some markets have some channels in HD, others don't. Forget about HD out of market sports of any types, not going to happen. And a bunch of them don't even carry Al Jazeera America or the BBC World News feed, which are the best news channels available here. And DirecTV's picture quality is way better than anything except (arguably) FIOS.


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## Gordon Gekko (Apr 3, 2005)

stevel said:


> I suspect the FF question was either a misunderstanding of what was in the manual, or the manual was poorly worded.


Just a couple of more THR22 questions as I am just trying it out now but I can see already I'll be graduating to the Genie. I know you have written that On Demand does not work for everybody, is there a process, maybe a reboot that will get it going, it says "temporarily unavailable".

The 2nd tuner keeps leaving my live content to try to record an enhanced content channel, any way to turn this off or maybe because I am turning this receiver on for the first time it is happening.

The delay upon changing a channel is annoying, is the HR44 faster in this regard?

The fast forward is OK but not as smooth as the R10.

The hard drive is fairly loud but I read somewhere else that could die down after a few days but overall this machine is underwhelming.

Does the Genie allow you to watch SD channels in their native letterbox format as this might seem crazy to some people but I prefer to watch certain channels especially the cable news channels in SD, either that or I will have to buy a smaller TV as I find those programs to be too large in HD. On the THR22 it has a setting for Full, Letterbox, and Zoom, hopefully the Genie has these options as well, basically you can set it up to have the SD channels appear as they would on an R10 with a 720p LCD HD television.

I only have a 27 or 28 inch LCD but I find it too large in full HD, DVD movies that have the bars on top and bottom look great, I wish all of television HD was in that aspect ratio, will probably scale down to a 24 inch. And of course the inevitable death of SD in general as it probably has about 5 years of life left.

With the new satellite setup I probably will have to change, I will only be able to bring one wire into the house, a SWM LNB, right now I have the 4 wires so I can use the R10, I guess the only way I can continue to use the R10 is through a legacy port on a SWM multiswitch, are there any methods to still use the R10 with a SWM LNB?

And another Genie question, will it always keep the one tuner live with 90 minutes of buffer, if you have 4 recordings going on will it always use the unused tuners to record and not mess with your live buffer?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I am not aware of a way to make On Demand work on the THR22. Sometimes it seems as if it's working, but it never does.

You can't use the R10 with SWM - it will need a legacy port which means a separate SWM module and not the integrated SWM-dish.

The Genie does have the ability to show in the native format.

The hard drive issue is not a factor of the box - it seems to be hit or miss as to what drive you get. I can't hear the drive in my THR22 unless I get up close.


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