# Watch out TiVo: Others are innovating!



## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Xfinity has not yet come to my area so I have not paid much attention to it. But this caught my attention:






While the proof of concept interface seems a little drab, this is way cool!

TiVo could have given us so much more than ads and ordering pizza over the last few years; control over TiVo from networked computers and appliances like the iPhone, cooperative scheduling, DNLA support, etc. But it seems they don't feel they have to as the CableCo boxes have always offered less than the TiVo experience. Looks like those days might soon be over so I hope TiVo has plans to innovate again it has been a long, long time.


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

That is the most stupid ideal that Comcast has come out with. I have a remote that can do the same thing . It a waste of money which Tivo does not have. They got enough problem with the premiere to worry about beside a ipad appl.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

caddyroger said:


> That is the most stupid ideal that Comcast has come out with. I have a remote that can do the same thing . It a waste of money which Tivo does not have. They got enough problem with the premiere to worry about beside a ipad appl.


You have a remote that allows you to see all the shows currently playing _on the remote_ itself and let's you search and set up a recording with a few "touches"?

Or invite a friend to watch a channel and have the channel change on their TV when they accept?

I don't think you do. It is very innovative. More innovative than a Bluetooth remote.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

caddyroger said:


> That is the most stupid ideal that Comcast has come out with. I have a remote that can do the same thing


No you don't. And if you think you do you are out of touch. In case you do not understand the concept, this appliance gives you control over the cable box/dvr interface, without having to tie up your tv's screen to do it.

This means you can watch whatever it is that you're watching, and still surf/search the channel guide and schedule recordings (not to mention being able to send a heads up on a show to another user, without having to come here to do it).


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

morac said:


> You have a remote that allows you to see all the shows currently playing _on the remote_ itself and let's you search and set up a recording with a few "touches"?
> 
> Or invite a friend to watch a channel and have the channel change on their TV when they accept?
> 
> I don't think you do. It is very innovative. More innovative than a Bluetooth remote.


I can see that on my tv screen just as good as a ipad screen.
You have be very lazy if you can not press a few extra buttons to search for programs. 
I can use what most people call a telephone the have a friend watch the same show.
Like i said that the dumbest thing that Comcast wants to do.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

That is hilarious. A $500+ remote + a DVR fee, all for dumb people. Oh, but you can suggest to friends shows to watch. Yeah, like that is what I need. Oh, and if I do want to recommend shows, I can just use an old invention called the phone to call them. Alot quicker, cheaper and I can hear him say, WTF, when they turn to the channel. 

Sure it is innovative, but so is a solar powered electric beenie hat. Personally, I prefer something useful. Everyone is trying to come up with the must use feature.. but so far.. it's all useless crap. I just wish they'd concentrate on playing MP3's from network shares, etc.. better.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Sorry some of you don't get it. Think of the days you had a printed TV Guide in your hand. You didn't have to turn off the show you're watching in order to browse for what you wanted to watch next.

And you don't have to run upstairs and turn on your TV to schedule a show to record.

Many times I see a promo for a show I might like to try. Now I have to stop what I am watching, drop into the TiVo interface, and find it to record. Seems kind of 20th century to me.

You may be happy with the modal interface that is TiVo, but that kind of thing went out of style 10 years ago. Can you say "multitasking"?


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

solutionsetc said:


> Sorry some of you don't get it. Think of the days you had a printed TV Guide in your hand. You didn't have to turn off the show you're watching in order to browse for what you wanted to watch next.
> 
> And you don't have to run upstairs and turn on your TV to schedule a show to record.
> 
> ...


Who going to pay for this useless ideal?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Seems like a subset of Slingbox type functionality. I've had this capability and a lot more for a long time now using Slingbox.


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## heidismiles (Aug 12, 2007)

bschuler2007 said:


> That is hilarious. *A $500+ remote + a DVR fee, all for dumb people*....


Uh... what are you talking about? It's a (free?) _APP_ on the iPad.

That's like hearing about a cool new piece of computer software and saying "...*scoff* Hilarious ... who'd pay $1000+ for a computer just to have THAT software?"


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> You may be happy with the modal interface that is TiVo, but that kind of thing went out of style 10 years ago. Can you say "multitasking"?


now instead I would have to stop the game I was playing on my iPad cause my wife was watching some lifetime movie and saw some other lifetime movie she wants to record.

Or else I still have to go to the web sites I use to find new shows with some more detail on what it is about and make the list of possibilities and then go out of the browser app and into this app to set them up. Also do I have ability to do season passes or boolean operator wishlists from that scheduling app or can I just record the show I see and then bug friends about it.

Can Apple say multi-tasking? I for one am not swayed by a 500$ toy as a must have - My laptop can do all that they showed at the same time save for making the show instantly appear on my friends TV - fortunately I have friends smart enough to be able to find the show and change the channel.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

heidismiles said:


> Uh... what are you talking about? It's a (free?) _APP_ on the iPad.
> 
> That's like hearing about a cool new piece of computer software and saying "...*scoff* Hilarious ... who'd pay $1000+ for a computer just to have THAT software?"


Sounds cool and all, but how many of us already own an iPad or plan on getting one? That's where the extra $500 is coming from and not the cost of the app. Is this feature really worth $500?

I'm perfectly happy using my tv to schedule programs or finding out whats on. I already have the tv on anyways when I am doing this. If your fumbling around with an iPad looking at your guide your looking at that screen and not the tv screen. To me that is the same as look at the guide over the channel, but in this case you can still somewhat see the video in the background in case you miss something.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

LoREvanescence said:


> Sounds cool and all, but how many of us already own an iPad or plan on getting one?


 Apple has sold 1 million iPads to date


> If your fumbling around with an iPad looking at your guide your looking at that screen and not the tv screen.


 to be fair the iPad has an incredibly easy interface to use - you do not fumble around with an iPad. Apple leads in new interfaces and making them easier to use. You do however pay for that 'simplicity' in the form of no multi-tasking and other features that do enter the realm of 'fumbling around'.

If I already had an iPad and Comcast DVRs I would get this app without hesitation and likely have fun using it for about a week. After that its strength at setting up season passes and wishlists is the only thing that would keep me using it.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

No sold.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

-1

Sounds like someone combined:

WMcBrine's "TiVo Remote 0.22" + 
Zap2it.com/TiVo.com + 
an IM client 

into one application. I currently have all that on my laptop already. Not combined into one app, but it would take much to do so.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'm at work so it's bad enough I'm posting- can't watch a utube video for sure- Lol.

But if it's just 
1) a way to browse the guide on an ipad- then you can browse tivo's site on a tablet too- and set your box to record. You couldn't change channels in real time- but I think it's been beat to death here that tivo isn't "meant" to be watching live tv. For better of for worse. And if you want to watch the tv and look at the guide- tivo added PIP to the premiere. If one really wants a tablet to do it than they can wait a few months and get an android running knock off of the Ipad for like a third of the cost and browse tivo.com to do it.
2) a way to suggest shows to friends. - Tivo press shots of the premiere showed such an app. Tivo could easily do that if people want it (and tivo thinks it will sell more boxes I'm sure they will do it) 
3) IM client- tivo's beat there. But maybe they get an IM client for the premiere to go with the keyboard in the bluetooth remote. Or again one could take the knockoff Ipad running android and use google talk on that while browsing the tivo website for the guide. 

it's neat that comcast made a single app for that. But it's not earth shattering. Hopefully now that android is outselling iphones in the US comcast will start releasing android versions of these apps. I'd love the visual voicemail app on my android phone that the iphone folks have for their comcast voicemail.


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## TerpBE (Jan 23, 2003)

I think the most useful thing about this is the keyboard functionality to search. There's no good reason Tivo hasn't released their own version of the "Tivo Remote" software that doesn't have to use "enter-right-right-right-down-down-down-down-enter-left-up-up-enter-left-down-down-enter-right-right-up-enter" to input a couple of letters. Actually the only "good" reason is that they want to force Tivo customers to shell out another $50-$100 for the new remote.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

TerpBE said:


> I think the most useful thing about this is the keyboard functionality to search. There's no good reason Tivo hasn't released their own version of the "Tivo Remote" software that doesn't have to use "enter-right-right-right-down-down-down-down-enter-left-up-up-enter-left-down-down-enter-right-right-up-enter" to input a couple of letters. Actually the only "good" reason is that they want to force Tivo customers to shell out another $50-$100 for the new remote.


Except for the channel tuning thing from the guide, I can do this now using my iPod Touch. However, there is a delay from the time you request a show to record until it is actually scheduled. This device appears to be real time, but like others I think the 500.00 premium for the iPad is a bit much.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

The point here is that this is a step forward for an entity not normally known for steps forward. And what's funny is that TiVo has already had the hard part of this in the can for quite some time&#8230; the network based R/C protocols, but like so much that is TiVo, it is only half finished (and only Crestron and a couple of indie iPhone developers have taken advantage of it).

But regardless of whether or not *you* think this is cool, if and when this rolls out there will be 100 million iPhone, iPod, iPad users (of which the overwhelming majority are prime prospects for TiVo like products and services) that will see this advertised on every channel where Comcast has market presence and think "cool, I want my DVR to do that!" After all, this is Sling's total existence. But in this case, it is a single box with no cash outlay, and is delivered and set up with a single phone call.

As TiVo users, the fact that you don't see this as being huge is&#8230; well&#8230; stunning! I guess it is a chicken and the egg type of thing. What came first, TiVo's complacency or yours?

The YouTube post was just a first look, and Comcast could muck it up or actually hit a home run here. But TiVo's inability to introduce any 'wow factor' technology in recent years has hurt them big time, and others seem to be stepping up to the plate.

Enough said&#8230; I don't want to continue to argue the nuts and bolts of this. I just found it surprising that this came out of Comcast. And while I have always considered them a necessary evil in my neck of the woods, I welcome their effort here. We need a lot more of this, especially from major players that have been seemingly ok with providing purely vanilla solutions in the past.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> The point here is that this is a step forward for an entity not normally known for steps forward. And what's funny is that TiVo has already had the hard part of this in the can for quite some time the network based R/C protocols, but like so much that is TiVo, it is only half finished (and only Crestron and a couple of indie iPhone developers have taken advantage of it).
> 
> But regardless of whether or not *you* think this is cool, if and when this rolls out there will be 100 million iPhone, iPod, iPad users (of which the overwhelming majority are prime prospects for TiVo like products and services) that will see this advertised on every channel where Comcast has market presence and think "cool, I want my DVR to do that!" After all, this is Sling's total existence. But in this case, it is a single box with no cash outlay, and is delivered and set up with a single phone call.
> 
> ...


I agree that innovation is good and junk, but TiVo has some serious repairs to make with regard to features that no longer work due to DRM issues, while these other companies are ignoring these issues by offering features that would not be affected by them. So while TiVo backtracks to restore functionality (I hope) it may appear that other companies are innovating. As for this comcrap thing, I'd like to see it work with a PC, or netbook.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Stormspace said:


> TiVo has some serious repairs to make with regard to features that no longer work due to DRM issues


Good point, but IMO, TiVo could have addressed this long ago if they wanted to. A simple solution would be to offer a move option on CCI flagged shows where the original is set for no playback during the copy and deleted afterwards.

An MD5 checksum could easily be used to verify the integrity of the destination file before the source is deleted.

Not as perfect as streaming, but certainly doable if the hardware is not up to the task.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

solutionsetc said:


> The point here is that this is a step forward for an entity not normally known for steps forward. And what's funny is that TiVo has already had the hard part of this in the can for quite some time the network based R/C protocols, but like so much that is TiVo, it is only half finished (and only Crestron and a couple of indie iPhone developers have taken advantage of it).
> 
> But regardless of whether or not *you* think this is cool, if and when this rolls out there will be 100 million iPhone, iPod, iPad users (of which the overwhelming majority are prime prospects for TiVo like products and services) that will see this advertised on every channel where Comcast has market presence and think "cool, I want my DVR to do that!" After all, this is Sling's total existence. But in this case, it is a single box with no cash outlay, and is delivered and set up with a single phone call.
> 
> ...


actually I've had comcast for several years now and I'm pretty impressed with them- my price is relatively stable (if i call to get a new deal whenever my old one is up)- but they add new channels and increase my speed all the time. The DVR they hand out around by me doesn't seem to make people want to throw it out the window. It's no tivo but not pathetic like the earlier ones. And they continually upgrade their web offerings (although I personally hate their websites- i see they work to improve them) , and lately they have made ipod apps that i would like to get ported to android- didn't seem trivial to me that they have visual voicemail on the ipods. So i'm not shocked that they are working on innovating things.

On the flip side, i too think tivo's innovation is crazy weak. The premiere is embarrassing as released. They should have rolled it out silently like they did with the S2 originally and THEN when they had real progress on it (say a share with friends app, an IM app, a streaming app, etc)- they could have made a big media stink. Tivo is almost hard pressed at this point to say their products are consistantly evolutionary- never mind revolutionary.

the specifics of this particular comcast toy just dont impress me. When I first got tivo it was really so far ahead of anything. It was like that for a few years. But now they just kind of are hohum. I could see why people pick the cable company offerings.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

solutionsetc said:


> Good point, but IMO, TiVo could have addressed this long ago if they wanted to. A simple solution would be to offer a move option on CCI flagged shows where the original is set for no playback during the copy and deleted afterwards.
> 
> An MD5 checksum could easily be used to verify the integrity of the destination file before the source is deleted.
> 
> Not as perfect as streaming, but certainly doable if the hardware is not up to the task.


EXACTLY- and they could have implemented it years ago. it's shameful.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> As TiVo users, the fact that you don't see this as being huge is&#8230; well&#8230; stunning! I guess it is a chicken and the egg type of thing. What came first, TiVo's complacency or yours?


Huge? 100 million users? man you woke up on the dramatic side today, huh?



solutionsetc said:


> Not as perfect as streaming, but certainly doable if the hardware is not up to the task.





MichaelK said:


> EXACTLY- and they could have implemented it years ago. it's shameful.


except that currently TiVo would have to get cablelabs to approve how they do it and frankly that lab has had way too much say already. I like the approach currently underway of getting the FCC to knock cable labs down some and say they are a hardware certifier and have no say in software


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Huge? 100 million users? man you woke up on the dramatic side today, huh?


Was wondering when you'd join this party. Yeah I think doing something to attract 100 million users of these things is huge, or maybe a better word is smart. These are the kinds of folks that appreciate gadgets that work a little better, and are willing to pay a premium for it.

Sound like the kind of customer you're familiar with?

I'll tell you something else that would be huge. If TiVo got off their butts and put together a one stop, supported solution to integrate these devices instead of the cobbled together solution of their currently buggy software and relying on indie developers who work for free to make the stuff that actually works.

Ala you wake up in the morning and while your doin' breakfast, last night's Daily Show and this morning's news is automatically re-encoded and downloaded to your iPad ready for the morning commute. Yes there is a way to do this now, but it is not a TiVo supplied solution, nor is it marketed that way. Now, you have to become a fan, scrub the net, and put the puzzle together yourself. What a waste of time and opportunity.

Now compare this kind of announcement to what was offered up in the 'reinvention' event. It would have taken a fraction of the resources to put this together and would have packed a bunch more wow to the general public-at-large than the ho-hum news they actually offered up.

I'm sure you can offer up another excuse (like in your post above) as to why TiVo just can't seem to do things right in recent years, but the bottom line is their implementations are just sloppy, half baked, and inconvenient.


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## rage777 (Aug 19, 2006)

I think I would hate it if people kept sending me advice on what I should watch. It would probably also show stuff for my wife and me on the same TV. We watch completely different shows, she likes the mainstream Lost, Dancing, and Idol, while I like Discovery, HGTV, etc. Those notices would just start to get irritating after a while. Does it filter out multiple requests? Like if one friend suggests Lost and another does the same thing, do I get 2 notices or just one?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> Was wondering when you'd join this party. Yeah I think doing something to attract 100 million users of these things is huge, or maybe a better word is smart. These are the kinds of folks that appreciate gadgets that work a little better, and are willing to pay a premium for it.


 well that sounds like the Comcast DVR alright. 

and yes I agree - Comcast will attract millions of new users casue they can use their big old iPad as a Guide and remote control. I thought I was the one posting silly stuff


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I thought I was the one posting silly stuff


Don't count yourself out just yet.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

scandia101 said:


> Don't count yourself out just yet.


yeah, well you post with a lot of moxi yourself


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> -1
> 
> Sounds like someone combined:
> 
> ...


Actually it looks almost exactly like nControl for Windows Media Center minus the Comcast OnDemand features.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ...
> 
> except that currently TiVo would have to get cablelabs to approve how they do it and frankly that lab has had way too much say already. I like the approach currently underway of getting the FCC to knock cable labs down some and say they are a hardware certifier and have no say in software


the dfast licenses specifically says they can do that. It's right there since the first day that tivo has been building S3's. Cablelabs spelled out exactly how they want it done. Tivo got them to approve MRV copy so they could have gotten MRV Move done. You are right it may have taken cable to approve and might have even taken months or a year. but at least in the end there would be a work around.

Maybe the end game is to get cablelabs out of the way- but there's no reason that YEARS ago tivo didn't implement an interim work around.

At this point with the premiere it might be a dumb approach but they should have launched the premiere with streaming like others already do. It's like they only starting working on the premiere code last Christmas.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> Maybe the end game is to get cablelabs out of the way- but there's no reason that YEARS ago tivo didn't implement an interim work around.


I agree that cablelabs is the evil that restricts our Tivo use. I hope they become a non-factor with the recent FCC stuff going on.
The only point I disagree with is the "YEARS" part.
Granted, the copy protection/MRV issue has existed for years, but it was a non-factor until the digital transition reared its ugly head.
TiVoCasts, as they used to be called, were never allowed MRV and yet no one complained (at least not loud enough).


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

steve614 said:


> I agree that cablelabs is the evil that restricts our Tivo use. I hope they become a non-factor with the recent FCC stuff going on.
> The only point I disagree with is the "YEARS" part.
> Granted, the copy protection/MRV issue has existed for years, but it was a non-factor until the digital transition reared its ugly head.
> TiVoCasts, as they used to be called, were never allowed MRV and yet no one complained (at least not loud enough).


i dont know about you- but my HBO HD (and the rest of the premium movie channels) was restricted from the day I installed my first S3 the week after they came out. So tivo has known for years that the flagging nonsense was an issue. It is less of a factor when its only the movie channels but it's still darn annoying. In fact the only channels I've had that have been flagged this whole time where the premium movies (there was a time when there were more but comcast backed off here). So it's not major to me but it annoys me that they have known for years and done nothing- zero- zilch- nada to change things for the current users. Cable is the evil cause but tivo does nothing to fix it.

Personally I'm much more likely to want to transfer a 2 hour movie then a 30 minute sitcom from a broadcast network for a variety of reasons. So it's not a non-factor - maybe a small factor but there's always been some negative bit to it and while some of us saw it 'day 1' its shown itself to the masses since they turned on MRV - also some time ago.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

While TiVo is in desperate need of (re-)invention, that "Xfinity" app isn't it.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

This feels like Washington at times, it seems there is a contingent of members that will always say that anything done by non-Tivo companies is a waste of time.

In most of other forums I visit whether it be car forums or technology forums I see passionate people but they at least will rationally discuss the competitors as well as the community focus products and even say sometimes that somebody made a better choice going elsewhere.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> Ala you wake up in the morning and while your doin' breakfast, last night's Daily Show and this morning's news is automatically re-encoded and downloaded to your iPad ready for the morning commute. Yes there is a way to do this now, but it is not a TiVo supplied solution, nor is it marketed that way. Now, you have to become a fan, scrub the net, and put the puzzle together yourself. What a waste of time and opportunity.


TiVo Desktop Plus 2.8 can already automatically download and re-encode video from the TiVo to iPhone/Touch format and import it into iTunes (which then transfers it to iPhone/Touch). It can't do it for the iPad, but that's not surprising since the iPad came out after TDP 2.8.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

morac said:


> TiVo Desktop Plus 2.8 can already automatically download and re-encode video from the TiVo to iPhone/Touch format and import it into iTunes (which then transfers it to iPhone/Touch). It can't do it for the iPad, but that's not surprising since the iPad came out after TDP 2.8.


Great! I did not know this as I am only a lowly Apple user and there is nothing supplied by TiVo to do this. If TDP can indeed do this, I think it would be worth it for TiVo to make some noise about this oh but wait a large number of the users of these devices use Macs and TiVo seems incapable of authoring Mac software that works. Oh well.


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## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

This looks great. Would I use it? Probably not, but its cool additional functionality that Comcast is NOT charging for. Go Innovation! And btw, I have a number of iPad wielding friends who I think would be more tempted by Tivo if their iPad could double as a super remote.
-Shaown


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

shaown said:


> This looks great. Would I use it? Probably not, but its cool additional functionality that Comcast is NOT charging for. Go Innovation! And btw, I have a number of iPad wielding friends who I think would be more tempted by Tivo if their iPad could double as a super remote.
> -Shaown


I have an iPod app that works as a TiVo remote and I find it limiting since there is no tactile feedback. By the time you light the screen, open the app, locate the button on the screen and press it, I could have grabbed the IR remote and pressed the button without looking at it, picked up my drink, adjusted in my seat, wiped my nose, mouth, and face or if I was especially quick, walked down the hall to the rest room and returned. 

A remote like that isn't going to have any value for typical functions, even looking at guide data, but for scheduling the interface available is much better and faster than the on screen interface.

I see this move by comcast as a catch up move to TiVo, not anything that makes it better than TIVo.


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## Robbdoe1 (Dec 29, 2008)

zalusky said:


> This feels like Washington at times, it seems there is a contingent of members that will always say that anything done by non-Tivo companies is a waste of time.


+1:up:

Innovation, no matter who does it, is in everyone's best interest.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

zalusky said:


> This feels like Washington at times, it seems there is a contingent of members that will always say that anything done by non-Tivo companies is a waste of time.


Certainly I can see the usefulness of an interactive remote. 'Just one example: the husband can be going through the TV schedule selecting programs to record while the wife is watching a recording of her favorite soap. When I bought a wireless music device, I went with the Creative Labs unit in part because it had an interactive wireless remote. Unfortunately, their firmware and software was horrendous, and in the mean time my TiVos have taken over the fucntion of streaming music to my entertainment centers. A friend of mine also specifically did not want to buy an audio server which required the TV to be on in order to select music for listening, so he passed on any wireless music systems that required the TV to be on.

That said, I'm certainly not blown away by the feature, and it is certainly not "innovative" by any definition I would use. The idea has been around for decades. Most manufacturers eschew it in favor of lower cost remotes.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Robbdoe1 said:


> Innovation, no matter who does it, is in everyone's best interest.


Innovation implies coming up with something new. Implementing an idea that has been in the mainstream for more than 20 years is hardly "innovative". Not only that, but while I am almost always for adding new features to a platform, this one strikes me as very middle of the pack. Certainly it would be nice if TiVo offered an interactive remote, but I defnitiely would not choose one DVR over another based merely on this one feature.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

If all you look at is the simple example of iPad controlling this Tivo your limiting your vision. It could be on all sorts of devices not just iPad. The idea of wifi control with some web interfaces has been done but they are all clunky. I could see a nice integrated view of all your Tivos and your schedules easily dealing with conflicts and padding issues. Basically by remote programming this could totally be a competitor to the Tivo guide and search. Competition is good because some companies are much faster at innovating. Apple is somewhat closed but they do allow developers to submit apps and effectively the developers compete with each other.

This really does not happen with Tivo now. If Tivo opened up to the App model or at least the remote app model (security aside) to this level of API control we could see a lot of innovation and with little cost on their side.


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## True Colors (Oct 19, 2006)

Some of these arguments strike me as being similar to back when cel phones were introduced. Some people said that a cel phone was really not much different from a cordless phone except that you could take it outside. But look at how things have evolved. Now we have text messaging and all sorts of other goodies.

What you saw on that video was simply the original platform. Now that it is in place there is something to build on. You can be sure that the creative minds at apple aren't going to simply launch a product and let it sit there. They will add on to what you just watched in that video. 

I could see this new technology opening up several new possibilities.....

First, can this app be used remotely or does your ipad have to be connected to your home network? If it can be used remotely then that is a clear cut advantage over the old cable remote. That one thing right there would be a huge leap forward for comcast.

Second...... one clear advantage for the iPad which jumps out at me is that you do not even have to have the television turned on in order to schedule your program recordings. For instance, if you are laying in bed at night surfing the iPad and you remember that you want to set a recording for the next day you do not have to get out of bed, turn on the TV, flip through the menus, etc. to set a recording. 

Also, I could see this sort of thing being appealing to the younger crowd who is more oriented towards phones and apps and cool toys. 

TC


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## huey009 (Nov 30, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> The point here is that this is a step forward for an entity not normally known for steps forward. And what's funny is that TiVo has already had the hard part of this in the can for quite some time the network based R/C protocols, but like so much that is TiVo, it is only half finished (and only Crestron and a couple of indie iPhone developers have taken advantage of it).
> 
> But regardless of whether or not *you* think this is cool, if and when this rolls out there will be 100 million iPhone, iPod, iPad users (of which the overwhelming majority are prime prospects for TiVo like products and services) that will see this advertised on every channel where Comcast has market presence and think "cool, I want my DVR to do that!" After all, this is Sling's total existence. But in this case, it is a single box with no cash outlay, and is delivered and set up with a single phone call.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. This is just the beginning of how consumers will digest and interact with media. I find TiVo's lack of innovation highly disappointing. It's almost as if the company just doesn't "get it". I doubt that is true, but it certainly seems that way. I guess that's what happens when you stop innovating and start sueing. I just can't see them surviving for very much longer in this market.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

zalusky said:


> This feels like Washington at times, it seems there is a contingent of members that will always say that anything done by non-Tivo companies is a waste of time.


 I was just pointing out to the honorable gentleman that million of new users was perhaps a bit dramatic bordering on hyperbole.


> In most of other forums I visit whether it be car forums or technology forums I see passionate people but they at least will rationally discuss the competitors as well as the community focus products and even say sometimes that somebody made a better choice going elsewhere.


 people do that as well in here. My moxi nonsense posts aside I have likely done that a few times a month for quite some time. There are indeed people for whom moxi is the perfect fit and people post very reasonable reasons for going with HTPC which get agreed with and so forth. the dramatics and hyperbole does create a higher signal to noise here but if you can cut through that the rational does exists as well.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Certainly I can see the usefulness of an interactive remote. 'Just one example: the husband can be going through the TV schedule selecting programs to record while the wife is watching a recording of her favorite soap.


you can do this now with TiVo mobile and an iPod.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

huey009 said:


> I completely agree. This is just the beginning of how consumers will digest and interact with media. I find TiVo's lack of innovation highly disappointing. It's almost as if the company just doesn't "get it". I doubt that is true, but it certainly seems that way. I guess that's what happens when you stop innovating and start sueing. I just can't see them surviving for very much longer in this market.


what a load. With TiVo tools I was able to load video onto my smartphone 3 or 4 years ago. I can schedule recordings from my smartphone now. I can stream netflix directly to my TiVo with no PC involved.
Others have pointed out that with TiVo desktop you can automatically take shows directly to itunes by some simple one time configuration of desktop. Comcast will not let a show off their DVR for any reason
There was the IP based remote for TiVo on the iPhone for at least a year enabled by TiVo API and simple 3rd party app developement. That works just as well on iPad.

The only thing missing is the public APIs to send our own schedule requests into TiVo and not rely solely on TiVo website. TiVo has its missing parts just like everyone else but to say TiVo has not innovated in the face of all the new features added is just a load.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

True Colors said:


> Some of these arguments strike me as being similar to back when cel phones were introduced. Some people said that a cel phone was really not much different from a cordless phone except that you could take it outside. But look at how things have evolved. Now we have text messaging and all sorts of other goodies.


Classifying text messaging as a "goodie" is roughly like calling the bubonic plague "fun". I was among the first people to get a cellular phone, before handheld cellular phones were even available. I thought it was a great idea, and I still do. When hand-held cellular phones became available, my boss and I waged a successful campaign to have our company foot the bill for cell phones for the two of us. With the exception of Blue Tooth capability and larger, more readable dispplays, very little of the additional "features" of contemporary phones are of any value to me. Many are just the opposite, most notably size. One can no longer obtain a reasonably sized cell phone.



True Colors said:


> Also, I could see this sort of thing being appealing to the younger crowd who is more oriented towards phones and apps and cool toys.


Far more often than not, the term "cool" is simply a synonym for the term "stupid", especially when used by teenagers. It was true when I was a teenager, and it seems even moreso today.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> you can do this now with TiVo mobile and an iPod.


That, too. How producing something - no matter how desirable - that already exists can be called "innovative" is entirely beyond me.

Buy a clue, folks: reproducing features already widely available in the marketplace is not innovation. Applying the label to such a feature in order to bolster the appeal is just hype. We have enough hype. Call it what it is and honestly appraise it as such. It's bells and whistles - a fairly nice one to be sure, but bells and whistles nonetheless - and it is anything but new.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> what a load.


Yeah. A big one. Smelly, too. Then again, I've heard people talk about innovation, the internet / networking, and Microsoft in one breath, too. Windows was the very last OS to implement internet capabilities.



ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo has its missing parts just like everyone else but to say TiVo has not innovated in the face of all the new features added is just a load.


There's also a difference between what marketing types insist on calling "new" features and features that are really useful. In fairness, as I have already admitted, this is a modestly (not overwhelmingly) useful feature for many users, but it is not new and it is not Earth-shattering. It's nothing even close to the leap from VCRs to DVRs. _That_ was innovation.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I was just pointing out to the honorable gentleman that million of new users was perhaps a bit dramatic bordering on hyperbole.


Well then you simply aren't aware of the numbers. Currently over 86 million iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPads have been sold. These users have come to rely on these devices for practically everything and always keep them nearby. In fact, they have installed over 3 BILLION applications to them, spending almost 5 BILLION dollars to do so. And these numbers are predicted to increase another 50% by the end of this year.

At present the average iThingie user has installed 33 apps to their device; it seems pretty clear to me that these users are looking to assign the management of practically any task or activity to these devices, and that other devices that integrate _*well*_ with them will be bumped to the top of their shopping list over products that don't.


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

I own an iPhone, and might one day get an iPad, but there is no frikkin way I will use this stupid Comcast Xfinity crap. Everyone complains about the problems with TiVo, but I've tried the Comcast solution and it leaves quite a bit to be desired. This "innovation" was nothing more than trying to polish a turd, the turd being the Comcast DVR. 

The average user is not going to drop $500 on a iPad to use this feature, contrary to what the resident Apple Kool-Aid drinker thinks.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> Well then you simply aren't aware of the numbers. Currently over 86 million iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPads have been sold.


Which simply exemplifies the fact there are more than 214 million of us (in the U.S.) that are not underburdened with intelligence and overbutrdened with time and money. You're padding your position by including iPods in the mix. I am also compelled to wonder what percentage of iPad owners have at least one of all three devices, and how many of those purchased are now collecting dust or are in a landfill.



solutionsetc said:


> These users have come to rely on these devices for practically everything


I rest my case. Although the iPad display is at least readable, it is far too small to actually get any significant amount of work done and vastly too small to make it worthwhile for viewing videos, even if it were not for the fact at least one hand is made useless by the need to hold the device. Until human beings grow a third useable arm, handheld devices will always have very limited capabilities. (And no, I'm not forgetting about voice activation.)



solutionsetc said:


> and always keep them nearby. In fact, they have installed over 3 BILLION applications to them, spending almost 5 BILLION dollars to do so. And these numbers are predicted to increase another 50% by the end of this year.


After adjusting for inflation and the inherently greater cost of producing the devices, those numbers align fairly well with the sales of pet rocks.



solutionsetc said:


> At present the average iThingie user has installed 33 apps to their device; it seems pretty clear to me that these users are looking to assign the management of practically any task or activity to these devices


Since over 30% of those apps are games, and a large chunk of the rest are applets of very limited scope, this conclusion is highlyu suspect, if you ask me.



solutionsetc said:


> and that other devices that integrate _*well*_ with them will be bumped to the top of their shopping list over products that don't.


I'm sure that may be true of many of these users. The longevity of that position is an entirely different issue. A more important question, however, is actual useability. The average computer owner makes very little significant use of their PC. Many do little more than e-mail and web searching. That's fine. It's their money and their PC. Allowing their (lack of) needs to impact those of us who actually do make heavy use of our computers is another matter. The same holds for DVRs. Producing applications that allow all sorts of additional gee-whiz sorts of capabilities is all to the good, but claiming a product is superior merely based upon the presence of a single (or small number of) available apps is rubbish. I love the DVD plug-in for pyTivo, for example. It's one of the neatest little fourth party gizwidgets I have seen in a long time. It definitely adds value to my TiVo. Judging the TiVo to be superior to another platform solely on the presence or absence of a DVD publishing app would be absurd, however.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> Buy a clue, folks: reproducing features already widely available in the marketplace is not innovation.


So you see no innovation in a graphical user interface on a computing platform? My recollection is that you are already on-record somewhere here that you don't.

Innovation is not always about accomplishing something new. It is often about refining the process one goes through to get the same things done. Otherwise we would still be crunching numbers on an abacus.

Yes TiVo has a website here, and a mobile portal of it there, there is a third party app that is a dumb remote over wi-fi, there are other third party apps (I believe you are also on record here as preferring over TiVo's offerings) to get other things done; TTGO,BTT. But it is messy at best. They can't print how to clearly accomplish it all on the box. They can't get the message across to you in a 30 second spot. The guy selling TiVo's at best buy can't explain. All because it just doesn't _simply_ work.

Apple has become one of the richest companies in the world by sweating the details on computers, music players, and cell phones. They didn't invent them, they just made them a joy to use (ever try and browse the web with a Motorola RAZR?).

TiVo used to be about this back with the design of their original interface but they have lost their way with a hodgepodge of stuck on new features that look and feel like the generic seat covers you can pick up at the local Pep Boys.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> You're padding your position by including iPods in the mix.


And you come to that assessment how? The iPod Touch runs the same OS and is capable of running the same apps.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

JTYoung1 said:


> I own an iPhone, and might one day get an iPad, but there is no frikkin way I will use this stupid Comcast Xfinity crap. Everyone complains about the problems with TiVo, but I've tried the Comcast solution and it leaves quite a bit to be desired. This "innovation" was nothing more than trying to polish a turd, the turd being the Comcast DVR.


Interesting. So not only is it not new, not essential, and not innovative, it isn't even particularly interesting. Lord, what a snooze.



JTYoung1 said:


> The average user is not going to drop $500 on a iPad to use this feature, contrary to what the resident Apple Kool-Aid drinker thinks.


Well, in fairness, I think the point was that those who already have iPads and iPhones would prefer a DVR with the feature over one without it. It sounds like you have shot down that position, as well. Certainly I am not going to buy an iPad*, and the availability of such a feature - even if it were well implemented - woud not tend to make me want to buy one.

* - Not at $500. If the price comes down below $150, I might consider it as an alternative to a Kindle 2. I would consider buying a Kindle 2 if it were under $150, and the iPad certainly would compete more than well with the Kindle 2. OTOH, if the iPad drops below $150, then surely the Kindle 2 would drop even lower. Give the eventuality, I would then still not buy an iPad in favor of a less expensive Kindle 2.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

JTYoung1 said:


> The average user is not going to drop $500 on a iPad to use this feature, contrary to what the resident Apple Kool-Aid drinker thinks.


I think you missed the entire point. DVR users won't be buying iPads because it integrates well with them, iPad users will be buying DVR's that integrate well with them.

As an iPhone user, how would you feel about a DVR that allowed you to see and control every aspect of it in the same manner that you could while parked in front of the TV?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> And you come to that assessment how? The iPod Touch runs the same OS and is capable of running the same apps.


1. I doubt there are very many iPhone or iPad owners who don't have an iPod Touch. Off the very top, owners of two or all three should only be counted once, not two or three times.

2. I expect a very large number of people have purchased multiple iPod Touches. Loss, theft, and device failure will have taken a significant toll, by now. Also, I seem to recall there being ore than one model, right? Many people have no doubt upgraded at least once, if so.

3. An iPod is a personal device, while a DVR is a family device. It's unlikely a DVR would be purchased or leased by anyone but a bread-winner, while I imagine a large fraction - perhaps even a majority - of iPods have been purhcased by or for non-bread-winners. In perhaps a significant number of cases, the bread-winner does not own any of the three items, despite having at least supplied the money to purchase one or perhaps even several. Even if the bread-winner does own one or more of the devices, the entire household only counts as a single potential owner of perhaps a bit more than 1 DVR.


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

solutionsetc said:


> I think you missed the entire point. DVR users won't be buying iPads because it integrates well with them, iPad users will be buying DVR's that integrate well with them.
> 
> As an iPhone user, how would you feel about a DVR that allowed you to see and control every aspect of it in the same manner that you could while parked in front of the TV?


If they didn't have a need or desire to have a DVR before they purchased an iPad, you will find that very few people will actually get one after they purchase an iPad because Comcast has app for it that allows you to control it. An app for the iPad is not going to drive huge numbers of people to get a DVR

I can control my TiVo's just fine from the TiVo website or even my iPhone because I added m.tivo.com to my homescreen. In fact I set it to record a program on the History Channel yesterday when I was 600 miles away from home.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> It's nothing even close to the leap from VCRs to DVRs. _That_ was innovation.


Correct - that would be the definition of innovation I grew up with. However now that is classified as game changing and streaming Movies is innovative. Lots of terms with imprecise definitions and use in this thread as you also point out.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> As an iPhone user, how would you feel about a DVR that allowed you to see and control every aspect of it in the same manner that you could while parked in front of the TV?


wake me up when I can see the shows on my iToy


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> I doubt there are very many iPhone  owners who don't have an iPod Touch.


Clearly you're unfamiliar with the devices you choose to pontificate upon. An iPod Touch is an identical device in form and functionality to an iPhone, sans the cell phone functionality. Owning both is akin to one individual owning two of exact same make and model of vehicle; one with a hands free cell phone and the other without.



> 2. I expect a very large number of people have purchased multiple iPod Touches. Loss, theft, and device failure will have taken a significant toll


Two of the three scenarios you cite have these devices still in service. You're reaching a bit here.



> 3. An iPod is a personal device, while a DVR is a family device. It's unlikely a DVR would be purchased or leased by anyone but a bread-winner, while I imagine a large fraction - perhaps even a majority - of iPods have been purhcased by or for non-bread-winners. In perhaps a significant number of cases, the bread-winner does not own any of the three items, despite having at least supplied the money to purchase one or perhaps even several. Even if the bread-winner does own one or more of the devices, the entire household only counts as a single potential owner of perhaps a bit more than 1 DVR.


Oh boy "perhaps", "imagine", "unlikely". What concrete arguments you have there. As for family and bread-winners, suffice it to say that I am betting you are way outside the 18-25 demographic whose market TiVo and iThings strive hardest to penetrate, and as such, out of touch with that market you are attempting to assess.

Of course you can continue to assign the term 'meaningless' to innovation based on how much more "work" you think you get done on your computer as opposed to others or any other non-sensical criteria you wish to factor, but innovation is driven by the markets that inventors and manufacturers primarily wish to address and, thankfully, I don't see you to be a part of any of them.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

JTYoung1 said:


> I can control my TiVo's just fine from the TiVo website or even my iPhone because I added m.tivo.com to my homescreen. In fact I set it to record a program on the History Channel yesterday when I was 600 miles away from home.


Yes, TiVo does some of this. But you didn't really answer my question.

So what if you want to watch that program while you are 600 miles away from home?

Or what if you wish to choose which program to delete to make room for that program on the History Channel?

Or create a wish list for something you saw/heard was upcoming that you had to have, but is not yet in the guide data?


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> wake me up when I can see the shows on my iToy


No kidding. While you can now do this via Slingbox, I'd love to see a transcoding server built in to the DVR, with dynamic DNS added to the service.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

Saying anything negative about Tivo just gets you lambasted here. The blind Tivo nutthuggery here is out of control.

Just remember, kids... Tivo can do no wrong and even tho they havent introduced any kind of feature in years that wasnt a way for them to be profitable, they're still innovating FOR YOU!!!


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

solutionsetc said:


> Yes, TiVo does some of this. But you didn't really answer my question.
> 
> So what if you want to watch that program while you are 600 miles away from home?
> 
> ...


I have a Slingbox to watch that program 600 miles away from home, which I can watch on my iPhone or my Laptop. Or I can simply wait until I get home and watch it on my HDTV in the Lay-Z-Boy

I have 1TB drives in all 3 of my TiVo's and I move the programs I want to keep over to my Windows Home Server box via TiVo Desktop. I don't think I need to worry about deleting shows to make room for a new show. I can see how it might be necessary with Comcast since their drives are rather small.

Can Comcast's Xfinity service create a Wish List for a program that does not exist yet? Right now all I need to do is remember to set the DVR sometime starting 2 weeks before the show airs, not a very difficult thing to do. Right now I don't think anyone in the general public knows what this Xfinity TV app can do outside of what the demo showed.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

JTYoung1 said:


> Right now I don't think anyone in the general public knows what this Xfinity TV app can do outside of what the demo showed.


It was just a demo and who knows whether it will be worth a damn. But its a start. Hell I didn't even know about the existing iPhone app providing access to voicemail until someone brought it up in this thread.

With Sling and lots of storage you have the ideal setup. But I would like to see it all integrated to a single device/interface. All of the parts have been in place for some time.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> I think you missed the entire point. DVR users won't be buying iPads because it integrates well with them, iPad users will be buying DVR's that integrate well with them.


Some no doubt will. Some buy alarm clocks or AVRs with iPod docking stations. Many, probably most, iPod owners do not, however. I expect the same will be true of DVR purchases. After all, there are a huge number of available utilities and applications available for use with the PC and a TiVo, yet most TiVo owners do not use their PCs in conjunction with their TiVos, even though most of those apps are free.



solutionsetc said:


> As an iPhone user, how would you feel about a DVR that allowed you to see and control every aspect of it in the same manner that you could while parked in front of the TV?


The questions are, "How much *different* would he feel about a DVR with the feature versus one without the feature, after taking all the other feature differences into account? Is it enough to sway the vote in favor of an otherwise inferior DVR?" I expect for most iThingie owners, the answer to the second question would be, "No". Remember, just because you are excited about integrating your DVR with your iThingie, doesn't mean the average iThingie user is, any more than the average computer user is overwhelmingly interested in integrating a DVR with their PC. If they were, no one would be leasing a CATV owned DVR, and PCs are far morte ubiquitous and more widely integrated into the average person's life than an iThingie.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> After all, there are a huge number of available utilities and applications available for use with the PC and a TiVo, yet most TiVo owners do not use their PCs in conjunction with their TiVos, even though most of those apps are free.


We finally agree on something.  But I bet that 'why you think this is' is far different than 'why I think this is'. I think it is because it is too obscure. A page in a half in a hundred and thirty some-odd page manual that offers up almost nothing but 'go to our web site for more info' with one of the links broken.

But where does it say 'automatically download shows to your iPhone'? Nowhere. In fact, the one paragraph about TiVo Desktop does even mention TTG.

Folks have to become fans of TiVo to discover this. Most folks don't become fans of video recorders. Finding and installing undocumented and unsupported software, MAK numbers and signing up and discovering all of this in the first place when you don't know it exists it is just a MESS!

AFAIAC, TTGO is one of, if not the most distinguishing feature of TiVo, and it is also the most obscure and poorly supported. I actually believe TiVo doesn't want this in the hands of the 'average' user. It is a support nightmare as currently (half) implemented.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

KungFuCow said:


> Saying anything negative about Tivo just gets you lambasted here.


Nonsense! Along with many others, I have repeatedly admitted the following:

1. TiVo's technical support line leaves much to be desired.

2. TiVo's conflict resolution mechanism needs a great deal of work. It's far too tedious to resolve a simple scheduling conflict.

3. While the automated channel lineup change mechanism is nice, managing the "Channels I Receive" list is far more difficult and time consuming for the user than it should be.

4. The native networking is far more inefficient than it could be.

5. Drive expansion has a number of flaws which should be addressed.

No one has ever contradicted me, far less flamed me, for any of these statements. In addition, I have made other comments and recommendations which have met with an argument, but for far more fundamental reasons - right or wrong - than the other person feeling threatened by my comment or criticism.



KungFuCow said:


> The blind Tivo nutthuggery here is out of control.


Also nonsense. Without question there are a few perhaps overly zealous posts in response to perceived slights on the TiVo's design and features, but more often than not it is simply a response to an utterly moronic idea. WRT this specific thread, the fundamental idea is not moronic - it would make a nice little app - but the notion the presence of lack thereof of this functionality in a DVR would entice a large majority of DVR shoppers to flock toward or away from a particular DVR is close to being ludicrous. Most people - even iThingie owners - just would not care to that extent.



KungFuCow said:


> Just remember, kids... Tivo can do no wrong and even tho they havent introduced any kind of feature in years that wasnt a way for them to be profitable, they're still innovating FOR YOU!!!


No company of any sort with any even remotely competent staff - from the design engineers on up to the senior management - would ever even consider producing something unprofitable. Do you think Apple produced even a single one of its products out of altruism?

*GET A GRIP ON REALITY!!!*​
Hopefully having done so, raise your figurative head up and look around the DVR marketplace. If TiVo hasn't done anything innovative in years, virtually no one else in the market sector has done anything innovative since TiVo first rolled out in 1999. Most of them are inferior to the very first Series I.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> We finally agree on something.  But I bet that 'why you think this is' is far different than 'why I think this is'.


I don't know whether it is or not. I think it is because most people are technical illiterates who shouldn't be allowed to touch anyhing more sophisticated than a roll of toilet paper. Why do you think it is?



solutionsetc said:


> I think it is because it is too obscure.


I would argue that it is almost not obscure enough, in the sense you mean. Anyone too lazy to RTFM deserves the poorest performance imaginable. Certainly speaking in general, I don't want things to be easy. I want them to be powerful. Since making something powerful usually conflicts with what most people call "easy" (but actually isn't), more often than not, I want them not to be "easy". That said, networking the TiVo is not terribly difficult.



solutionsetc said:


> A page in a half in a hundred and thirty some-odd page manual that offers up almost nothing but 'go to our web site for more info' with one of the links broken.


I don't have the manual in front of me, so I really can't comment much. It's certainly not dificult to find the info, for anyone who is interested. Google is the information seeker's best friend.



solutionsetc said:


> But where does it say 'automatically download shows to your iPhone'?


Rght here, actually.



solutionsetc said:


> Nowhere. In fact, the one paragraph about TiVo Desktop does even mention TTG.


Perhaps not in the TiVo paper manual, I don't know, but entering the text, "automatically download shows to your iphone from your tivo" into Google Search and pressing <Enter> yields 70,000 articles related to the search. Presumably a fair number are topical.



solutionsetc said:


> Folks have to become fans of TiVo to discover this.


More nonsense. The number of people who don't know they can turn to an internet search engine for infomation is vanishingly small. Anyone too dim to realize two networked items might be interoperable is also probably too dim to be using a DVR.



solutionsetc said:


> Most folks don't become fans of video recorders.


Most people do not become fans of phones. I am a fan of neither. It doesn't prevent me from knowing about them.



solutionsetc said:


> Finding and installing undocumented and unsupported software, MAK numbers and signing up and discovering all of this in the first place when you don't know it exists&#8230; it is just a MESS!


Oh, brother. If that is the closest thing to a technical mess in your life, then I want your life. I deal with vastly larger technical messes than that literally before my eyes are fully open in the morning.



solutionsetc said:


> AFAIAC, TTGO is one of, if not the most distinguishing feature of TiVo


I would agree it is important to many users. I rarely use it at all, myself, but then I have much, much more sophisticated tools at my disposal (tools which would not be at my disposal with most other DVRs, BTW). Even if I were using it instead of the tools I do use, I still would not place it above Wishlists, filtered searches, and TiVo Suggestions in importance, or as distinguishing features. Indeed, TTG and its alternatives would be vastly less useful without them.



solutionsetc said:


> and it is also the most obscure and poorly supported.


'Not by a very, very long shot. The backdoor codes are much more obscure and not supported at all. So is unofficial drive expansion. Hacking the TiVo is even more obscure still, and isn't even acknowledged, let alone supported. I rate the ability to hack the TiVo as absolutely the most important feature outside of the core capabilities of the box. Oh, and I also rate TiVo to Come Back as more important and sometimes as distinguishing as TTG, and it is better supported.



solutionsetc said:


> I actually believe TiVo doesn't want this in the hands of the 'average' user.


That's an overstatement. They perhaps are not as enthusiastic about it as other features, but if so, it's probably because they don't want to yank the chain of the MPAA and the CATV companies too much.



solutionsetc said:


> It is a support nightmare as currently (half) implemented.


Oh, nonsense. It isn't half the bad dream that support for any compuer platform, including Apple, Microsoft, and Linux, is, and they don't mostly qualify as nightmares. You want a support nightmare, try Cricket Wireless (especially Broadband) for a few months.


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## Mike Lang (Nov 17, 1999)

Keep it civil guys...


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> I don't know whether it is or not. I think it is because most people are technical illiterates who shouldn't be allowed to touch anyhing more sophisticated than a roll of toilet paper...
> 
> The number of people who don't know they can turn to an internet search engine for infomation is vanishingly small. Anyone too dim to realize two networked items might be interoperable is also probably too dim to be using a DVR...
> 
> ...


You certainly seem to contradict yourself. I don't know what you do, but for the last ten years I have developed software for a living; specfically, development tools. For the better part of twenty years before that I assumed roles in many other development and support related areas. I have managed support for products from small startups to big behemoths such as Aldus and Adobe. I have dealt with the "average user", as well as the highly educated; from university professors to rocket scientists. The single most common denominator here are individuals so focused on the problem that they can not concentrate on the solution, regardless of how simple it may be.

I find many of your comments to be condescending, dismissive, and somewhat arrogant, despite not having all of the facts at hand. To me, this means you would never succeed in my position. You seem to feel that people need to pay their dues in order to use technology whereas I feel that the true test of properly implemented technology should preclude that exercise. I am guessing that you design very little and engineer a lot. Customers that pay their hard earned cash for your products deserve better than to have to search the net for what it will do and just how to accomplish it&#8230; assuming, of course, it is a well designed product.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> I rest my case. Although the iPad display is at least readable, it is far too small to actually get any significant amount of work done and vastly too small to make it worthwhile for viewing videos, even if it were not for the fact at least one hand is made useless by the need to hold the device. Until human beings grow a third useable arm, handheld devices will always have very limited capabilities. (And no, I'm not forgetting about voice activation.)


Maybe you need glasses? I browse the web a lot on my iPhone.. and wish that the netflix streaming app were available on the iPhone (not just the iPad).


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

Well, the Comca...err, XFinity app shown in the video is OK. Innovative? Not so much. There are a variety of apps for the iPhone that do the same thing. The application i.TV comes to mind, for example. This one has integration with the Xfinity DVR, which is handy if you own one, to be sure. But it's only real feature that can't be had elsewhere is the ability to schedule a recording right from the app interface.

That I happen to think that the Xfinity interface for their DVR is hideous does not make it terribly attractive to me. The iPad version is much more attractive than the actual DVR interface, but that's because of the screen real estate issue. Being able to invite a friend to watch a show is again nice...but I've had this feature on the Xbox360 with Netflix for almost a year and IME the opportunity to watch a show in a party has happened once...and the Xfinity box doesn't offer the benefit of real-time audio chat.

As for the popularity of the app: yes, there are quite a few iPod Touch, iPhone and iPad users out there. It is a bit disingenuous to suggest that many iPhone owners have not upgraded their models at least once (as every iPhone and iTouch user I know HAS). That's part of Apple's business model. I expect you'll see the cycle continue this summer. It's also ridiculous to point out the number of apps in the App Store without mentioning that more than two-thrids of them are games. There are some excellent apps to be found there...but let's be honest...the majority are games, joke apps and interfaces to already functioning websites/services. There may be many 'free' applications to connect directly to TiVo...but most people have no desire to spend hours trying to get 'Stream, Baby, Stream!' to run on their PC, useful as it may be. Most consumers are not Linux command-line hackers, editing INI files to point to folder structures and changing MTU values.

TiVo has fallen behind on innovation, IMHO. But to claim they haven't innovated at all is just silly. I think TiVo Desktop is an epic pile of FAIL (or at least was as of release 2.6), but it does work as advertised. Tivo's remote scheduling is no longer innovative, but it's still highly functional. Netflix on the TiVO is not the best implementation, but again...solid. The TiVo Premiere may have tons of backdoor improvements by moving to Flash...but most consumers don't care....it doesn't affect them in the slightest. They just see a dog-slow interface.

Finallly, the real problem I see here is that the proposed competition is Xfinity/Comcast. I've had Comcast. They're headquartered in the area, after all....and the service ranges from decent to horrible all over the place. I really don't expect much from them. Whoever it was upthread who said that he'd never seen anyone want to chuck a Comcast DVR? His experience certainly runs counter to my anecdotal evidence: family, friends and acquiantences I know from all over jumped at the chance to move to FIOS. Many jumped at TiVo or still don't know how to use the Xfinity boxes beyond changing channels. It's just too much trouble to learn their archaic system (remember: pause DOESN'T pause...you need to push down on the directional pad for that!...and so on).

The only reason that the Xfinity box gets put and stays out there is because people want the access to OnDemand, don't want to pay for another alternative, don't want to bother setting something else up or don't know they CAN choose other equipment.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

WizarDru said:


> Finallly, the real problem I see here is that the proposed competition is Xfinity/Comcast. I've had Comcast. They're headquartered in the area, after all....and the service ranges from decent to horrible all over the place. I really don't expect much from them. Whoever it was upthread who said that he'd never seen anyone want to chuck a Comcast DVR? His experience certainly runs counter to my anecdotal evidence: family, friends and acquiantences I know from all over jumped at the chance to move to FIOS. Many jumped at TiVo or still don't know how to use the Xfinity boxes beyond changing channels. It's just too much trouble to learn their archaic system (remember: pause DOESN'T pause...you need to push down on the directional pad for that!...and so on).
> 
> The only reason that the Xfinity box gets put and stays out there is because people want the access to OnDemand, don't want to pay for another alternative, don't want to bother setting something else up or don't know they CAN choose other equipment.


Not sure what year you last used a Comcast DVR, but there is a pause button and it does pause. Hell I even programmed 30 second skip on my Comcast remote.

Very usable system.


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Not sure what year you last used a Comcast DVR, but there is a pause button and it does pause. Hell I even programmed 30 second skip on my Comcast remote.
> 
> Very usable system.


Yeah, I programmed it on mine, but it only worked half of the time. Which was true of the two boxes that comcast gave me for everything. They locked up a lot. I switched to FIOS two years ago.

When I turned in my box and remote, I understood why when they literally threw the box into a big canvas mail cart like the post office uses, which a heap of motorola boxes tossed in a pile (not stacked). I have seen a friend's current and a relatives current motorola box and they appear to function exactly the same. If they actually changed the software so that the pause button actually pauses...well, welcome to 1982, Motorola and Comcast. Luckily it only took them six months to unlock the HDMI port on my box, too. 

Clearly, either we were using very different boxes or you and I have a very different idea of what 'very usable' means.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

WizarDru said:


> Clearly, either we were using very different boxes or you and I have a very different idea of what 'very usable' means.


The 6400 series motorola I had initially was underpowered, and it seemed as they rolled out more and more features it got more and more unresponsive. I requested newer HDMI equipped 3400 series units and they were quite usable.


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## kathpdx (May 27, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> I agree that innovation is good and junk, but TiVo has some serious repairs to make with regard to features that no longer work due to DRM issues,... So while TiVo backtracks to restore functionality *(I hope)*....


Hope springs eternal.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> It's nothing even close to the leap from VCRs to DVRs. _That_ was innovation.


I'm one of the (apparently) few who disagrees with that, even though I am a huge Tivo fan/supporter. One of the big things most people mention when getting any DVR is "I can now fast forward through the commercials". But I was doing that with VCRs for more than a decade before I had a Tivo. Yes, you had to manually set up recordings, but even I think that a manual recorder is sufficient *for some people* (and I use it to *augment tivos*).

I think having things all streamable at any time is far more of a leap than "recording then watching back later". Sure, with DVRs, you can watch the thing currently being recorded, and you can't do that with standard videotape-based devices, but watching the currently recorded programming is *relatively* rare, or at least is a minor inconvenience to not be able to do it.

(and yes, I did mean multiple VCRs, since obviously you need one to be able to play back while one is recording.)


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