# any DVRs that don't require service?



## Tom Farr (Apr 9, 2009)

Hello, 
I don't mean to be 'sacrilegious', but is there any DVR out there that will allow me to do time/channel recording without a service contract? I currently have Charter analog cable. From other threads I understand that TiVo boxes will not work at all without a contract. All I want is to replace my old VCR with something that does the same thing for longer, without tape. And I'm cheap. 
Thanks for any advice. 
Tom Farr


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## reubanks (Feb 19, 2006)

MythTV?


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

There are sereral possibilities. Some possibilities include TiVo, such as some of the original Series 1 TiVos which you might be able to find (used, of course).

Are you opposed to the service or just opposed to paying a monthly subscription fee? 

If it's just the monthly fee, you could get a TiVo with a paid lifetime subscription or a Moxi. They are expensive but that way, you'd have no monthly fee.

You could get a TV card for a PC.


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## techmonkey (Jan 13, 2009)

Do a search a frys.com I don't have a Fry's near me but I think they may have some stand alone DVR's


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## darksurtur (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom Farr said:


> Hello,
> I don't mean to be 'sacrilegious', but is there any DVR out there that will allow me to do time/channel recording without a service contract? I currently have Charter analog cable. From other threads I understand that TiVo boxes will not work at all without a contract. All I want is to replace my old VCR with something that does the same thing for longer, without tape. And I'm cheap.
> Thanks for any advice.
> Tom Farr


Do you need a guide? If not, you might want to consider a Philips 3575/3576 or Magnavox 2080/2160, "dumb" HDD/DVD recorders with digital tuners. They only record SD (but I think they pass HD), and digital closed captions are an issue. I am not sure how much they cost. One advantage they have over TiVos and other DVRs like it is that they allow in-unit editing of recordings, something I miss when I moved from my similar Accurian unit (analog tuner only).


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## johnny99 (Nov 10, 2008)

1. Windows Media Center
2. DTVPal


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Tom Farr said:


> Hello,
> I don't mean to be 'sacrilegious', but is there any DVR out there that will allow me to do time/channel recording without a service contract? I currently have Charter analog cable. From other threads I understand that TiVo boxes will not work at all without a contract. All I want is to replace my old VCR with something that does the same thing for longer, without tape. And I'm cheap.
> Thanks for any advice.
> Tom Farr


For analog cable you could look at a used Series 1 or 2 TiVo that has lifetime on it. You should be able to find one on ebay fairly reasonable. There are also used Series 2 Toshiba and Panasonic TiVos with built in DVD recorders that came with a lifetime basic subscription that do what you want and work with analog cable.

Good Luck,


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

johnny99 said:


> 1. Windows Media Center
> 2. DTVPal


DTVPal is only for OTA not cable.


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## Chips N Guac (Apr 9, 2009)

I have series 1 TiVo with built in DVD player I'm selling if you are interested. I can post pictures if you want.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I personally would suggest *AGAINST* using a series 1 without subscription for manual recording. I'd suggest getting either a lifetime subscription (which is tied to the box), or a different non-Tivo recorder. Without a subscription, all Tivo recordings will show up as "Manual Recording" and it will be difficult to find the one you want. Other recorders either use the free TV Guide On Screen data (not as good as Tivo, not available for all channels always, and apparently getting harder to find on analog in some areas), or VCR-like programming.. However, even with VCR-like programming, you can usually name the various recordings. I have named some of the manual recordings on my recorder for example, so they come up with a name.

While you have analog cable now, your cable company may get rid of analog cable within a few years at most.. So if you get an analog-only recorder now, you may be stuck in a few years.

I have a Toshiba XS32 which I use every day, along with my Tivos. (Actually, I think I only record 2 things regularly natively on it now, but I dub a lot of stuff from my Tivos -- even things that I don't intend to keep.. since I can watch at 1.5x with sound on it... so I dub unattended, then watch on the XS32.)


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## Noahbody (Sep 13, 2004)

Tom Farr said:


> Hello,
> I don't mean to be 'sacrilegious', but is there any DVR out there that will allow me to do time/channel recording without a service contract? I currently have Charter analog cable. From other threads I understand that TiVo boxes will not work at all without a contract. All I want is to replace my old VCR with something that does the same thing for longer, without tape. And I'm cheap.
> Thanks for any advice.
> Tom Farr


Your statement that "...TiVo boxes will not work at all without a contract." is not entirely true. Mine has been working just fine for two years now without a subscription.
If you're truly the frugal type you can accomplish this rather easily as well as cheaply. Acquire a series 2 unit (they can be had for less than $50 these days). You WILL have to activate it at least once. After the unit is activated simply unplug it from the phone line or ethernet connection. When you close an account TiVo sends a deactivate command to the box so unplugging it prevents this. After the guide data runs out it will only allow you to record by time/date which is what you want. It will continue to nag you that it hasn't connected in over 30 days but that is all.

You can accomplish the initial guided setup in several ways.

1. Sign up for the TiVo service and you can cancel without any charges within 30 days. Be sure and read the terms on this.

2. Activate the service using a gift card and then cancel after using the 3 months service. $50 minimum g/c.

3. The really cheap way is to have a friend with TiVo service hook it up and download the guide data then disconnect it. (This is like changing one TiVo box for another under his subscription.)

Unless Tivo Inc. has changed their software in the last year I know this works. My unit has v8.x software and I think they're up to v9.x now so that would be the only caveat.

P.S. You'll have to buy your unit from somewhere other than Tivo themselves as they require the DVR to be returned. 
P.P.S. If you buy a used TiVo S2 check it's status and you may get lucky and find that the seller unplugged it before he cancelled his service so it will already be good to go!


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

I wouldn't recommend a person go into getting Series 2 TiVo with the intent of pulling the subscription switcharoo as Noah stated. It might not work. I'd sooner recommend one get a Philips Series 1.

Depending on the intent, an HDD based DVD recorder might do.

If you do occasional time shifting, a Series 1 or other time based recorder will probably be fine, as the time/date/channel will likely be enough to identify a recording.

If you will watch a lot of TV through the DVR (as in time shifting), you may want a TiVo with subscription.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

The Sony DHG series will do HD without subscription, and only needs a cableCARD for cable HD.

They are however quite discontinued.

Diane


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## Noahbody (Sep 13, 2004)

"All I want is to replace my old VCR with something that does the same thing for longer, without tape. And I'm cheap."

I don't think making suggestions contrary to what he's requested is much help. 

Why buy a DVD burner unit which he doesn't want and just adds to the cost?

Why tell him to want a subscription just because you think it's valuable to have guide data and/or TiVo functions?

Why suggest options that cost hundreds of dollars when he tells you he's cheap?

They don't know what "cheap' is do they Tom?  

Good luck from a fellow frugal.

Let us know what you chose.


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

I purchased a Phillips DVR a few years ago that had a large built-in hard drive, a built-in DVD recorder/player, and it uses the free "TV GUIDE" program grid. Obviously, it was manufactured for analog service, not digital. If you desire to use such a device with rabbit ears and an HD converter, you might find one of these products used on E-Bay or Craigslist. Mine is not being marketed.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Noahbody said:


> Why buy a DVD burner unit which he doesn't want and just adds to the cost?
> 
> Why tell him to want a subscription just because you think it's valuable to have guide data and/or TiVo functions?
> 
> Why suggest options that cost hundreds of dollars when he tells you he's cheap?


The adage ''you get what you pay for'' comes to mind.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

Tom Farr said:


> Hello,
> I don't mean to be 'sacrilegious', but is there any DVR out there that will allow me to do time/channel recording without a service contract?


SD-H400 Toshiba branded Series 2 TiVo will program 3 days in advance where you can see show titles. You cannot program by show name only time/channel as you seem to want. It's quite a few years old, still selling on eBay.


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## Tom Farr (Apr 9, 2009)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> SD-H400 Toshiba branded Series 2 TiVo will program 3 days in advance where you can see show titles. You cannot program by show name only time/channel as you seem to want. It's quite a few years old, still selling on eBay.


Well finally, this is what I ended up with. Found on Amazon for $170. While I didn't initially think the 3 day program info from Tivo basic would be that useful, it makes making and finding recordings much easier. And it's *free*! Plus the newspapers no longer carry a TV guide. The unit has a built-in DVD which I didn't need as I already had one, but now I can get rid of it and the old VCR and only have one unit besides the TV. It took a while to set up as the phone connection dropped occasionally, but finally all is running.

Now a question: The unit seems to run all the time, even in Standby. I can hear the fan and a clicking noise which sounds like disk seeks. It never stops. I searched through the manual and the on-screen info and only found one possible: something called VCM connection, which said it wasn't successful and was trying every few minutes. Is there a way to stop the machine from working? The noise isn't so bad, but I feel badly about wasting electricity and if the disk is working full time, that may shorten its life...

Thanks for any suggestions, 
Tom Farr


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## LBCABob (Apr 21, 2001)

Yours is a standard new-to-TiVo question. Yes, the unit is running 24/7. The hard drive is always spinning. It is always recording whatever channel it happens to be on and storing same in the 30-minute buffer. Every so often (daily?) it makes a call to the TiVo Mothership to get updated guide information.

In theory, you could unplug the unit when not in use (e.g. when on vacation) to save on electric bill. If you unplugged every day and re-connected just when you are in the mood to watch TV, I guess you would save on power but would shorten the life of the drive (if you believe repeated powering up and down is more strain on drive than always leaving on). Not to mention the wait for the unit to complete the boot-up process. And if you had put something in the To Be Recorded queue, it of course would NOT record it if you have powered it off.

I have my Toshiba HD-400 in a guest room and only power it up when expecting visitors (do a day ahead so it can get updated guide data). BTW, do not know if your unit was brand new or used but from the messages on the TiVo's w/built-in DVD's forum, the drives on these units seem to be very consistent about failing at the (IIRC) 5-year mark. I replaced mine at the first sign of trouble.

Hope you enjoy your TiVo for many years to come!


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

As alluded to above, constantly unplugging the unit will reduce the unit life far more so than letting it run 24/7.

Leaving the TiVo on 24/7 will add about $2.50/mo to your electricity bill, or about the same $ as running your computer for 4-6 hours a day.


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## Tom Farr (Apr 9, 2009)

Thanks a lot for the very complete answers! I can see the reason behind keeping the disk spinning all the time, though it's too bad it can't 'sleep' for the 80% of the time I don't need it for watching or recording... I was also concerned about the apparent head movements which seemed to go on for hours. However that finally stopped, so I suppose it was doing something, even though the device was 'off' (standby). And I presume it's not doing the 30-minute recording thing unless it's on and I'm watching live-TV... 

I appreciate the heads-up on the disk life; I did buy it used and I don't know how old it is. From various threads, it doesn't seem too impossible to change out the disk. And then maybe I can get a quieter one! 

Thanks again, 
Tom Farr


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## LBCABob (Apr 21, 2001)

TiVo does not know if you have the TV on and are watching or not - it is always recording the last active channel (which, oddly enough, comes in handy more often than you might think as you can turn on TV and go back 30 mins should the current program be something of interest).

Disk activity jumps up after every call for updated program guide data as it has to make entries into the program database. The fewer "Channels I Receive" you have checked, the fewer the records to to added to/deleted from the file(s).

Replacing the disk drive is very easy - you can get one already pre-loaded with the software (the unique TiVo # is stored on the motherboard, not the drive) or copy the software (and any recorded programs) from the old drive to a new (bigger, quieter) one if you have a desktop PC and are comfortable connecting cables and such. You can even "hack" the software and add features (e.g. TiVoWeb for network access to your unit from your LAN or even the WWW). Refer to the Upgrade & Underground forums of this board.

IIRC, one drawback to the free "Basic" TiVo subscription mode is that it will not allow certain source combinations (e.g. Cable + DirecTV, I think). Easy to get around in the old days (just subscribe for a month), not so much now (1 year contract required). 

BTW, there is a way to transfer from a DVD to the Now Playing list (and even rename the program so it shows up correctly identified instead of the generic "Manual: XX/XX/XX" if you have the TiVoWeb hack installed). Copyright violation notwithstanding.


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## Mike_TV (Jan 10, 2002)

+1 for Vista Media Center or Windows 7 Media Center


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## Tom Farr (Apr 9, 2009)

LBCABob said:


> TiVo does not know if you have the TV on and are watching or not - it is always recording the last active channel (which, oddly enough, comes in handy more often than you might think as you can turn on TV and go back 30 mins should the current program be something of interest).
> 
> Disk activity jumps up after every call for updated program guide data as it has to make entries into the program database. The fewer "Channels I Receive" you have checked, the fewer the records to to added to/deleted from the file(s).
> 
> ...


It's *always* recording?! Who engineered that- the hard-drive vendors? I checked and indeed it's always merrily recording stuff I'll never watch- wow. Thanks for the info- at least that answers the question of what it's doing all the time.

Now for a related question, which I'll post elsewhere on the forum: Has anyone considered replacing their hard drive with a solid-state drive? Would solve the noise and much of the wasted electricity problems. Not being a techie, I have no idea how hard it would be...

Thanks, 
Tom Farr


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Do they even make solid state drives 1 tb in size?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

daveak said:


> Do they even make solid state drives 1 tb in size?


The largest I found via google is 512 GB for an estimated $1,652.00.
Neither my price nor size range.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10125861-64.html


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## westside_guy (Mar 13, 2005)

Mike_TV said:


> +1 for Vista Media Center or Windows 7 Media Center


If he wanted to spend that much, he might as well buy a Tivo with lifetime. He did mention *cheap*, more than once.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Tom Farr said:


> It's *always* recording?! Who engineered that- the hard-drive vendors? I checked and indeed it's always merrily recording stuff I'll never watch- wow. Thanks for the info- at least that answers the question of what it's doing all the time.
> 
> Now for a related question, which I'll post elsewhere on the forum: Has anyone considered replacing their hard drive with a solid-state drive? Would solve the noise and much of the wasted electricity problems.


See earlier posts about the reasons the drives are left running. Besides that, it's so that it can record suggestions and so that YOU don't have to wait for things to spin up when you turn on your TV.

Hard drives are dirt cheap. The 30 gig Quantum lct15 drive in the Sony Series 1 TiVo I bought at end of Feb 01 is still running, as far as I know (unit is loaned out). Switching to solid state wouldn't solve "much of the wasted electricity problems". SSDs are too expensive and non-server class drives don't draw a lot of power. Per http://www.dll.com.mx/biblioteca/HDD/Quantum/Fireball LCT15.pdf, the above drive draws 7.2 watts while operating.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The 1000, 2000, and 3000 series ReplayTVs and Panasonic Showstopper DVRs all came with lifetime service and required no monthly service contracts. You may still be able to find them for sale on ebay.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Tom Farr said:


> It's *always* recording?! Who engineered that- the hard-drive vendors? I checked and indeed it's always merrily recording stuff I'll never watch- wow. Thanks for the info- at least that answers the question of what it's doing all the time.


Actual studies by large users of hard drives like Google show that heavy use or sporadic use of a hard drive does not significantly change the overall Mean Time between failures. It is the quality of the drive that makes a difference. 
The TiVo is always recording so that no matter when you turn on the TV there will be a 30 minute buffer in place. Standby does not turn off the 30 minute buffer. If you want to keep the unit from recording during the day then turn suggestions off and then after your last scheduled show for the night setup a 5 minute recording for a channle you get no signal on like 0. Do the same for like 8 am as well as TiVo does record some of the things it needs in the middle of the night called teleworld.
Once tuned to a channel with no signal the TiVo stops recording a buffer as there is nothing to record.

PS - got a kick out of you being cheap and then innocently mentioning a solid state drive that would cost you a couple of thousand dollars.


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## Mike_TV (Jan 10, 2002)

westside_guy said:


> If he wanted to spend that much, he might as well buy a Tivo with lifetime. He did mention *cheap*, more than once.


What's cheaper than using the PC and you already have? Vista Home Prem. or Ultimate will do everything he is looking for.

In fact, it'll wake up, record the program, and go back to sleep saving power over an "always on DVR".

Since he mentioned basic cable, assuming he uses an existing Vista PC, all he needs to add is a tuner. Something like an HDHR for under $200.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Mike_TV said:


> In fact, it'll wake up, record the program, and go back to sleep saving power over an "always on DVR".


a 200watt PC power supply versus 38 watts I have seen mentioned for a TiVo DVR. not likely to be much power savings unless the PC is really geared toward being super energy efficient.

The OP found a good fit in the SD H400 - I have one of those myself in the bonus room where the kids watch TV. I have an OTA adapter for it and plan on letting one of the kids have it for a free TV setup when they first move out.


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## EL VIEJITO (May 13, 2009)

Tom Farr said:


> Hello,
> I don't mean to be 'sacrilegious', but is there any DVR out there that will allow me to do time/channel recording without a service contract? I currently have Charter analog cable. From other threads I understand that TiVo boxes will not work at all without a contract. All I want is to replace my old VCR with something that does the same thing for longer, without tape. And I'm cheap.
> Thanks for any advice.
> Tom Farr


Good question Im in the same boat and will apreciate answers as well


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## EL VIEJITO (May 13, 2009)

Im looking to also learn new things about recording programs since I miss all the good stuff because since I retired I have less tv time when I want it
,also suffer fron isomnia
thanks


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## EL VIEJITO (May 13, 2009)

Thanks


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## EL VIEJITO (May 13, 2009)

surpluscomputers.com has a cheap tivo unit($14.99) they say can do this but im too new to this and don't know if the units they sell are fault free


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## Tom Farr (Apr 9, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Actual studies by large users of hard drives like Google show that heavy use or sporadic use of a hard drive does not significantly change the overall Mean Time between failures. It is the quality of the drive that makes a difference.
> The TiVo is always recording so that no matter when you turn on the TV there will be a 30 minute buffer in place. Standby does not turn off the 30 minute buffer. If you want to keep the unit from recording during the day then turn suggestions off and then after your last scheduled show for the night setup a 5 minute recording for a channle you get no signal on like 0. Do the same for like 8 am as well as TiVo does record some of the things it needs in the middle of the night called teleworld.
> Once tuned to a channel with no signal the TiVo stops recording a buffer as there is nothing to record.
> 
> PS - got a kick out of you being cheap and then innocently mentioning a solid state drive that would cost you a couple of thousand dollars.


Heh heh . Well I am cheap and I don't need 1 TB of space. I only use the unit for a few shows and news. The original 80 GB drive is way more than I need so I looked and found 32 and 64 GB SSD for ~$150. Still a bit high, but if my HDD dies, I'd consider it.

I posed the question to the folks at DVRupgrade and they said it was "likely to not perform well because your DVR needs to be writing all the time - not what SSD devices are designed to do well." I don't understand that and they haven't clarified yet.

Thanks for the info about MTBF. Still seems like if the head is always moving around that the mechanical wear would be more than if it were parked. As I mentioned previously I can see no benefit to having 30 minutes of useless programming. I don't have the suggestions thing running either- don't know if it even comes with Tivo basic. Thanks for the suggestion about recording a blank channel- I will give that a try.


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## Tom Farr (Apr 9, 2009)

Mike_TV said:


> What's cheaper than using the PC and you already have? Vista Home Prem. or Ultimate will do everything he is looking for.
> 
> In fact, it'll wake up, record the program, and go back to sleep saving power over an "always on DVR".
> 
> Since he mentioned basic cable, assuming he uses an existing Vista PC, all he needs to add is a tuner. Something like an HDHR for under $200.


I did consider an EyeTV unit to go with my Mac laptop (the only computer I have at home), but it was more expensive and would require my laptop to be always at home, so I couldn't take it travelling with me.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

EL VIEJITO said:


> surpluscomputers.com has a cheap tivo unit($14.99) they say can do this but im too new to this and don't know if the units they sell are fault free


http://www.surpluscomputers.com/348578/philips-tivo-hdr-series-diy.html

Might be worth a shot checking that out, if it can be used without a sub and hi-def isn't a consideration. Along with an inexpensive hard drive it wouldn't have to be more than maybe $80 total (since the OP says he doesn't need much storage space).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Tom Farr said:


> I posed the question to the folks at DVRupgrade and they said it was "likely to not perform well because your DVR needs to be writing all the time - not what SSD devices are designed to do well." I don't understand that and they haven't clarified yet.


Yeah = current Hard Drives are simply engineered to have a lot of movement of the read/write head. Now part of the design in a TiVo is that the file system is like a database and as it records a show it is not having to move all over the place to do so. Google has tons of servers with lots of cheap hard drive arrays that move a lot of data. They studied the failure patterns to see if they could improve on it - the results showed that drives with low use and drives with heavy use still had pretty much the same failure rate.

SSD are just a different type of hardware altogether - think of using it in a DVR recorder like having some AA rechargeable batteries that you drain every day and charge every night - you will get to its MTBF pretty quickly that way with the current less expensive brands.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Tom Farr said:


> I posed the question to the folks at DVRupgrade and they said it was "likely to not perform well because your DVR needs to be writing all the time - not what SSD devices are designed to do well." I don't understand that and they haven't clarified yet.
> 
> Thanks for the info about MTBF. Still seems like if the head is always moving around that the mechanical wear would be more than if it were parked. As I mentioned previously I can see no benefit to having 30 minutes of useless programming.


Flash memory can only tolerate a finite # of erase cycles per block. This is not an issue w/hard drives.

Also, when you write to flash, it must erase the block before writing to it, which is slow. AFAIK, SSD should have some wear leveling mechanism to even out the wear but eventually, I suspect it'll start developing bad blocks as they wear out.

Since TiVo was designed w/mechanical hard drives in mind and NEVER SSD, you might run into funky problems. An example I could forsee due to TiVo's continual writing might be similar to what people hit w/Outlook on Windows w/crappy SSDs. See http://support.microsoft.com/kb/940226 starting with "If you are running Outlook 2007 on a computer that has a first generation solid state drive (SSD) or a slow rotational hard disk drive (HDD), you may experience frequent pauses when you perform typical operations in Outlook..." There's much other chatter about certain SSDs which I haven't cared to pay attention to.

I think it's dumb to spent $150 on a 64 gig SSD in exchange for a multitude of possible problems when 1/3 of the $ will buy you a WAY larger hard drive.

The 30 minutes isn't useless. There are many times that I've turned on my TV/come home to find that TiVo was tuned to something I didn't know about that I DID want. So, if I press Record, it'll then record that show and include the buffered portion in the recoding. If it isn't 30 minutes into the show yet, I've gotten the whole show.


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