# New tivo will not tune channel being broadcast only 1.4 miles away!



## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

I live only 1.4 miles from my local Great Falls, MT tv stations (can see their towers in my backyard!) and pick up KFBB (5-1, real channel 8), KRTV (3-1, real channel 7), and KUGF (21-1, real channel 21) signals just fine using an attic antenna that feeds all the TV's in my house. (80-95% signal strength) 

However, I recently purchased a TIVO and for some reason when the signal is fed through it, I only get 10-20% signal strength for channel 5-1 (KFBB), while KRTV and KUGF are about the same as they were before. 

I can disconnect the coax from the TIVO, hook it directly to my set, and get good reception with 5-1. I even went as far as running a direct line of coax (with no splitters, etc..) to the peak of my roof to a set of rabbit ears. No orientation gave better than 30% signal strength when hooked to the TIVO.

Can't post my info from TV Fool because the forum won't let me if I've had less than 5 posts! :down:: Here is the info from their table: 
KFBB-DT 8 (5.1) ABC 77.2 -13.7 LOS 1.4 98 deg
KRTV-DT 7 (3.1) CBS 72.2 -18.6 LOS 1.4 98 deg
KUGF 21 (21.1) PBS 66.9 -24.0 LOS 1.4 98 deg

Called customer support and was very disappointed. They were more interested in assuring me that they could not guarantee ota reception and that from the description of the problem that they were sure that the TIVO is not faulty. 

It seems that there has to be a logical explanation somewhere for this. If the TIVO is not faulty, is there anything else that could explain? 

Note: KFBB and KRTV are at exactly the same azimuth and distance, and have very similar frequencies. I am using a directional antenna in my attic, and one comes in at 90% while the other is at 10-15% with the TIVO, while both come in around 90% without the TIVO. 

Any thoughts here would be greatly appreciated. I still have about a half of a month of my 30-day guarantee left and if I don't resolve this issue I'm afraid that I'm going to have to return this TIVO box that I otherwise love!


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## 9300170 (Feb 21, 2003)

Probably you're getting to strong of a signal. Try an attenuator.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestion! But before I purchase one - see if my reasoning is correct with this evidence:
- The TIVO is located in my basement
- When it is connected to a set of indoor "rabbit ears," 3-1 and 21-1 come in (with lower signal strength than my attic antenna), but it is the same story with 5-1.

So doesn't this rule out the possibility of too strong of a signal?


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

tvoe said:


> Thanks for the suggestion! But before I purchase one - see if my reasoning is correct with this evidence:
> - The TIVO is located in my basement
> - When it is connected to a set of indoor "rabbit ears," 3-1 and 21-1 come in (with lower signal strength than my attic antenna), but it is the same story with 5-1.
> 
> So doesn't this rule out the possibility of too strong of a signal?


Where was your TiVo purchased? If local I'd explain the situation and do an exchange. You mention your 30 day period so I'll guess it was a TiVo direct purchase. Even if that's true I'd make a last call to TiVo support and make sure your situation is documented and ask for an exchange from them.

You might want to make your first call to the TV station and ask to speak to the engineer regarding a reception issue. They're often very helpfull.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

Yes - it was a direct purchase online. It seems obvious to me as well that switching it out and trying a different one is the obvious route to go, but dealing with shipping/returning will be a pain in the neck. Wish they were sold locally, but they are not... 

If the Tivo was not at fault, I suppose I would get stuck with shipping return costs for both units if I decide to back out using the 30-day guarantee.

I have emailed the engineering departments at both the station that does not work and the one that does - but haven't heard back from them as of yet. Just wondering if there is some fundamental difference in their signals other than frequency. As my TV Fool data shows, they are very similar in the stats provided there.


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

Just to be sure -- you're hooking the antenna up to the correct coax input on the Tivo, right? One is for cable, and the other is for antenna.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

NotVeryWitty said:


> Just to be sure -- you're hooking the antenna up to the correct coax input on the Tivo, right? One is for cable, and the other is for antenna.


Yep - just went and made sure. I am on the correct input.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

9300170 said:


> Probably you're getting to strong of a signal. Try an attenuator.


OK - think I can rule this out without actually buying an attenuator. The TV is in the basement, and I hooked up some rabbit ears folded completely down. That brought the 3-1 (KRTV) signal down from 90 to 55-60. But the problem channel is still not able to lock in, staying at signal strength 10-20.

It seems no matter what I do, that the signal strength is 10-20% for this channel, although when I disconnect the antenna completely it does at least drop to zero.


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## worachj (Oct 14, 2006)

Is it possible that TiVo is using a channel frequency of a nearby town and not that of the nearby towers? Have you verified that TiVo is mapping the correct frequency to the problematic channel? Did you do a channel scan?


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

worachj said:


> Is it possible that TiVo is using a channel frequency of a nearby town and not that of the nearby towers? Have you verified that TiVo is mapping the correct frequency to the problematic channel? Did you do a channel scan?


I have done multiple channel scans with different antennas attached.

This channel does transmit in other cities in Montana (such as Helena).

Quote from their facebook page: "KFBB-TV also operates a semi-satellite for the Helena area, KHBB-LD channel 21 (UHF). Both stations offer Fox via their digital subchannels (until 2009, only KHBB did so, as Fox programming in Great Falls was seen on KLMN) KFBB-TV is also repeated on several translators."

How do I check the frequency on the tivo? All it shows is the virtual frequency (5-1) on the screens that I see. Haven't seen the "real" channel listed anywhere...


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## worachj (Oct 14, 2006)

tvoe said:


> I have done multiple channel scans with different antennas attached.
> 
> This channel does transmit in other cities in Montana (such as Helena).
> 
> ...


You can see the frequency in the settings/channels/channel list. You may have multiple channel 5-1's and need to select the correct one for your location.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

worachj said:


> You can see the frequency in the settings/channels/channel list. You may have multiple channel 5-1's and need to select the correct one for your location.


Thanks - but been there, done that. Only one channel 5-1 is listed.


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## worachj (Oct 14, 2006)

tvoe said:


> Thanks - but been there, done that. Only one channel 5-1 is listed.


Is it using the correct frequency? If its not then there's a problem with TiVo's channel line-up.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

worachj said:


> Is it using the correct frequency? If its not then there's a problem with TiVo's channel line-up.


Just checked - it is correct: digital frequency 8


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

WARNING: Any of you who are lucky enough to enjoy Tivo with free over-the-air signals - my experiences clearly show that the company wants out of this segment of their business. 

First you will note that their newest and best tivos don't even support over-the-air. Second, my customer service experiences have shown an unwillingness to provide any real help. When I initially called customer service, the representative was trained more to distance tivo from any responsibility in this issue than providing any real help. When I emailed customer service, the repeated response was "The issue you are experiencing is not a TiVo issue, so replacing the TiVo unit will not fix that. If you are unable to improve the signal strength of the antenna channels my adjusting the antenna, then you may want to cancel the service." 

So I have one last idea - someone correct me in my thinking before I try this please: What if I use one of those converter boxes that the government issued coupons for when stations went digital, tune it to the problematic channel, and then use a combiner with my other antenna before going to the tivo box. On a channel scan, wouldn't the tivo likely find this channel on 3 or 4 since the converter box picks up the signal? But the signal would be analog, so would I have no guide information or ability to schedule recordings ahead of time?


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

> WARNING: Any of you who are lucky enough to enjoy Tivo with free over-the-air signals - my experiences clearly show that the company wants out of this segment of their business.
> 
> First you will note that their newest and best tivos don't even support over-the-air.


BOGUS> You don't know what you are talking about. But I will not go into the legitimate technology reasons why the XL4 does what it does (and what it doesn't do), as that is not relevant to your problem.

You could also try their twitter feeds or asking for a replacement box (things do happen). But, this does seem to indicate a non-tivo problem. I would go a few more steps before asking for a replacement box.

While this board is NOT Tivo, these folks continue to help support you.

Two things I would try:
Move the Tivo to a different location(s) and tell us what happens. Perhaps you have an issue with the wiring to the basement that impacts only certain frequencies that the Tivo is sensitive to.
I would also try your rabbit ears experiment up high to see what you find.

You clearly have an signal issue, external to the tivo, and it just needs to be nailed down. While a little painful at first, this is only the third day that ideas have been flowing here.


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## poppagene (Dec 29, 2001)

tvoe said:


> Just checked - it is correct: digital frequency 8


Try using the rabbit ears. The fact that your TV set gets the channel without an attenuator doesn't mean that the signal is nopt too strong for your tivo.

Before you go through another round of channel scans, try simply entering the channel 8-1 to see if your tivo can tune to digital channel eight. Try this with the attic antenna and the rabbit ears. Good luck.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

tvoe said:


> WARNING: Any of you who are lucky enough to enjoy Tivo with free over-the-air signals - my experiences clearly show that the company wants out of this segment of their business.
> 
> First you will note that their newest and best tivos don't even support over-the-air. Second, my customer service experiences have shown an unwillingness to provide any real help. When I initially called customer service, the representative was trained more to distance tivo from any responsibility in this issue than providing any real help. When I emailed customer service, the repeated response was "The issue you are experiencing is not a TiVo issue, so replacing the TiVo unit will not fix that. If you are unable to improve the signal strength of the antenna channels my adjusting the antenna, then you may want to cancel the service."
> 
> So I have one last idea - someone correct me in my thinking before I try this please: What if I use one of those converter boxes that the government issued coupons for when stations went digital, tune it to the problematic channel, and then use a combiner with my other antenna before going to the tivo box. On a channel scan, wouldn't the tivo likely find this channel on 3 or 4 since the converter box picks up the signal? But the signal would be analog, so would I have no guide information or ability to schedule recordings ahead of time?


I wouldn't take customer service not being able to help you personally. It is very unlikely they can do much for you.

From my personal experience the Premiere has issues dealing with multi-pathing interference and overload issues(check the link out for a sight that helps trouble shoot OTA issues). I have an original Series 3, a TiVo HD, & a Premiere all used for OTA only and there are times when the Premiere can not tune channels that the other 2 units can.

If you end up returning the Premiere you might want to consider a used Series 3 (original or TiVo HD). If you know someone with an Original Series 3 or TiVo HD I would see if they would bring it over to test it's reception. Actually if you know someone with a Premiere you could do the same to verify if your issues where specific to your Premiere or generic to all Premieres.

Good Luck,


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

tvoe said:


> First you will note that their newest and best tivos don't even support over-the-air.


Nitpick, there's only ONE model that doesn't support OTA. The XL4, previously called the Elite. (The 4 tuner model.)

I'm not claiming that they won't release other models that don't support OTA, they probably will.. but you make it sound like there are bunches of them that don't support OTA.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

atmuscarella said:


> From my personal experience the Premiere has issues dealing with multi-pathing interference and overload issues(check the link out for a sight that helps trouble shoot OTA issues). I have an original Series 3, a TiVo HD, & a Premiere all used for OTA only and there are times when the Premiere can not tune channels that the other 2 units can.


Thanks for the very useful information. The link you have had some very good things to consider. As complicated as things can get with OTA, I can see a little bit why tivo support washes their hands of the issue... But at the same time, if it does turn out being their hardware issue, it turns out to be a very difficult situation for the customer.

So my experimenting goes on.... Unfortunately, I don't know anyone in my area to bring over their tivo to try. That would be ideal. (Anybody in Great Falls, MT reading this??  )

But here is what I have done: 
- I turned off the breakers to everything in the house except for the circuit that runs the tivo and tv. (with no other electronic devices connected to this circut). Result: No change. Conclusion: not affected by electronics or wiring within the house. 
- I used a smaller TV that was easy to move and a set of rabbit ears, and set up the Tivo in various locations within the upper level of my house. Use three different corners of the house (NW, NE, SE). Result: Other networks did come in stronger on the eastern corners facing the towers, but the problematic channel did not improve.
- I used a 50' extension cord and set the tivo and tv up on my front lawn, within view of the towers (see pics below). Result: Same as above. Very strong signal from other networks, problematic channel did not improve. Still have a signal strength that fluctuates wildly between 5 and 20%.



















(Sorry if the pics don't show for you - I tried. Try this web address if you want to see one: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2KXbWioaSRsN1hMQ0JBMnh6Snc)
Note you can see the TV towers in the background. Talk about frustrating...

Overall results and conclusion from above: Interference not likely the issue? Is my reasoning correct here?

My suspicion now lies the most with overload issues. Is an overload consistent with the fact that even folded down rabbit ears in the basement result in no change? If I do seek an attenuator, how much attenuation would anyone suggest I start with?

BTW: Thanks a ton to everybody who has given me some input thus far. And I apologize to those of you I offended when I ranted and raved after my dissatisfaction with customer service. Tivo is a pretty cool device - and obviously has some loyal followers. Just hoping I can get mine tweeked to my satisfaction.


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## rvsj (Dec 20, 2007)

Can you receive anything with nothing connected to either input jack on the TiVo?
You may be close enough that you may be encountering severe front end overload forcing the front end amplifier to go to minimum gain.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

rvsj said:


> Can you receive anything with nothing connected to either input jack on the TiVo?
> You may be close enough that you may be encountering severe front end overload forcing the front end amplifier to go to minimum gain.


No - signal strength drops to zero and don't get anything with nothing connected.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Antennas are only 1.4 miles away? Try putting a paper clip in the antenna input connection. 

Only half kidding.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

steve614 said:


> Antennas are only 1.4 miles away? Try putting a paper clip in the antenna input connection.
> 
> Only half kidding.


 Since you were only half kidding - I actually tried it. I actually was able to pick up the two good networks with a paperclip! Signal strength dropped from 90 to 80 and 85 to 40 on those. Still couldn't get the problematic station, although the strength did seem to be up maybe just a little bit, and it didn't fluctuate as crazily. So again, in my mind this continues to support the idea of an overload and that I should be looking at attenuators?

Anybody have any idea where one could look locally for these (I know radio shack doesn't carry them), and if not and I'm stuck with internet ordering, what combination or set would anyone recommend I purchase to continue with my experimentation?


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

I am surprised radio shack doesnt sell them.....


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

What do you get on 8.3 and 8.4!


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

tvoe said:


> Since you were only half kidding - I actually tried it. I actually was able to pick up the two good networks with a paperclip! Signal strength dropped from 90 to 80 and 85 to 40 on those. Still couldn't get the problematic station, although the strength did seem to be up maybe just a little bit, and it didn't fluctuate as crazily. So again, in my mind this continues to support the idea of an overload and that I should be looking at attenuators?
> 
> Anybody have any idea where one could look locally for these (I know radio shack doesn't carry them), and if not and I'm stuck with internet ordering, what combination or set would anyone recommend I purchase to continue with my experimentation?


I recently purchased attenuators through an Amazon partner. I purchased two sets of three attenuators for my two Tivos. I bought 3db, 6db, and 12 db. I ended up using about 9db total on each Tivo. They brought my signal levels down from over 100 to about 70-80 on my CATV feed.

I was not having the same problem you are and felt reducing my signal might help a completely different problem. Unfortunately, it didn't.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

steve614 said:


> Antennas are only 1.4 miles away? Try putting a paper clip in the antenna input connection.
> 
> Only half kidding.


You beat me to it.

When I saw that he was only 1.4 miles from the transmitter my first thought was that his problem should be how not to get the station on everything in the house, including the blender and the electric toothbrush.

If what he calls real channel 7 and real channel 8 are the same frequencies as those numbers were when they were VHF-high analog channels, and they're broadcasting from the same location, and the TV at the end of the same piece of co-ax gets both fine, then there's no way in H-E-double transmitter towers that the problem is not the TiVo.

It's unpossible.

It may be hardware, it maybe data, but something is keeping the local oscillator in the TiVo's tuner from running at the correct frequency to heterodyne the signal down to the Intermediate Frequency where it gets further amplified.

They're lying to him. They may not realize that they are, but they are.

He should demand that TiVo get one of their RF engineers to take a look at his problem.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

unitron said:


> They're lying to him. They may not realize that they are, but they are.
> 
> He should demand that TiVo get one of their RF engineers to take a look at his problem.


I'm running out of time on my 30-day guarantee, and have put a lot of hours into trying to correct this problem. Anyone else agree with unitron on this?

And if so, what are your suggestions to most effectively "demand" that they look at the problem? It seems that they are more than happy just to lose me as a new customer than to help me out. It amazes me that two different contacts with customer service (on the phone and on-line) both have resulted in no cooperation regarding trying another tivo.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

before i demand anything, i would get an attenuator and try it


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Call them now, and make sure to ask them to log your issue in their system. Then try an attenuator as a last ditch effort.

I would also document what you have done- this will help in working with TiVo and in the event a replacement unit has a similar issue.


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## bshrock (Jan 6, 2012)

Contact the station they may have a cut channel attenuator available for just this reason.


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

You say you don't know anyone near you that can bring another Tivo over to try. Is there any chance you could do the opposite -- take your Tivo somewhere else not so close to the transmitters? That would hopefully let you know if the problem was a too-strong signal or not.

I hope you figure this out -- problems like this surely can be frustrating, but if you can get it solved, you'll probably quickly forget all about the problems and just enjoy the Tivo.

[FWIW, I think the reason the Tivo XL4 (Elite) doesn't do OTA is because the box was targeted for MSOs, who would have no use for OTA.]


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## StarkNaked (Feb 23, 2008)

compnurd said:


> I am surprised radio shack doesnt sell them.....


They did sell them, but it doesn't show in the current catalog anymore.

Part number 150-0578

I did find the Radio Shack part still for sale on Ebay.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

NotVeryWitty said:


> You say you don't know anyone near you that can bring another Tivo over to try. Is there any chance you could do the opposite -- take your Tivo somewhere else not so close to the transmitters? That would hopefully let you know if the problem was a too-strong signal or not.]


Tried your suggestion - at least I gave it my first attempt. Went to my parent's house which is on the opposite side of the city and down in the valley, and got the exact same results with rabbit ears. They probably live 4 miles or so from the tv stations. Also with a paperclip, I actually received my good channels at 92-93% from their house (actually a little better than here on top of the hill near the transmitters), but the problematic channel again jumped between 5 and 20%.

Traveling 34 miles away tomorrow for work and thought I would tote my smaller TV and tivo with me to see what happens there. Problem is I know that many people who live in that small town have trouble getting any reception with just rabbit ears, so I might be looking at too weak of a signal instead. If by some miracle the channel did tune in from there, then I would be convinced that I need to be ordering some attenuators online.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

OK - part 2 of my testing is over: 

34 miles away was too far, as I suspected. Could not pull in a signal from any station with just rabbit ears. Most people here use roof-top antennas for OTA. In a building on the second floor, I was able to get about 23% signal strength on the reliable stations, and the problem channel fluctuated between 0 and 20%. It does not "lock in" and stay at a particular strength no matter where I try this thing...

So I was hoping that tests out at this distance would confirm a need for attenuation, but no such luck. Now that I have tested with multiple antennae, in multiple parts of my house (including outside), in different parts of the city, and now out of town, and channel 5-1 still wigs out all over the place, I have to admit that I am quite skeptical that an attenuator is going to solve this. Anybody else agree with me? My gut just tells me that this Tivo's tuner is faulty somehow, but without getting my hands on another machine I will never be able to confirm that or convince the bull-headed engineers at Tivo of this. What do you all think?


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

tvoe said:


> Now that I have tested with multiple antennae, in multiple parts of my house (including outside), in different parts of the city, and now out of town, and channel 5-1 still wigs out all over the place, I have to admit that I am quite skeptical that an attenuator is going to solve this. Anybody else agree with me? My gut just tells me that this Tivo's tuner is faulty somehow, but without getting my hands on another machine I will never be able to confirm that or convince the bull-headed engineers at Tivo of this. What do you all think?


Considering everything you've tried, I'm also skeptical that an attenuator will help, but it's a cheap thing to try if you can find one. The problem sounds like some kind of destructive interference caused by a reflection of the channel 5-1 signal from a nearby hill or building or something, but it seems unlikely that you would see the same problem at another location across town. You could call the station engineer to see if the two stations that share a tower have the same radiation pattern. IOW, do they have about the same effective radiated power in your direction.

The most damning evidence against the TiVo is that a TV connected to the same feed has no trouble receiving the problem channel. Because of that, it would be very interesting to try a different TiVo to see if it acts the same, although it's hard to imagine any mechanism that would make the TiVo's tuner act up on only one frequency.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

tvoe said:


> OK - part 2 of my testing is over:
> 
> 34 miles away was too far, as I suspected. Could not pull in a signal from any station with just rabbit ears. Most people here use roof-top antennas for OTA. In a building on the second floor, I was able to get about 23% signal strength on the reliable stations, and the problem channel fluctuated between 0 and 20%. It does not "lock in" and stay at a particular strength no matter where I try this thing...
> 
> So I was hoping that tests out at this distance would confirm a need for attenuation, but no such luck. Now that I have tested with multiple antennae, in multiple parts of my house (including outside), in different parts of the city, and now out of town, and channel 5-1 still wigs out all over the place, I have to admit that I am quite skeptical that an attenuator is going to solve this. Anybody else agree with me? My gut just tells me that this Tivo's tuner is faulty somehow, but without getting my hands on another machine I will never be able to confirm that or convince the bull-headed engineers at Tivo of this. What do you all think?


I think you've confirmed the need for a new TiVo.

Something's keeping it from properly tuning and de-modulating that one channel, and that something almost absolutely has to be something internal to the TiVo.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

unitron said:


> I think you've confirmed the need for a new TiVo.
> 
> Something's keeping it from properly tuning and de-modulating that one channel, and that something almost absolutely has to be something internal to the TiVo.


I hope you're right. I finally convinced them of an exchange. Will arrive in the next few days and will report back.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

tvoe said:


> I hope you're right. I finally convinced them of an exchange. Will arrive in the next few days and will report back.


OK - have to admit when I'm wrong. Received a new premier and I'm running into the same exact problem... I thought for sure it was the Tivo. So I'm back to troubleshooting. I'm convinced that I'm going to get this thing figured out.

Recall if you've only skimmed the thread - I am receiving one network (channels 3-1 and 3-2) just fine, but the other network (channels 5-1 and 5-2) which is broadcast at exactly the same distance and direction will not come in through the Tivo (although it does tune with other devices in the house). These channels are broadcast through true digital channels 7 and 8.

Here have been my latest tries: took my monoprice indoor/outdoor antenna and placed it in multiple locations/orientations in my attic. The troublesome channel will not sustain a signal strength above 25% - although interestingly enough every once in a while it will pop up to a 100 for a brief moment (just to irritate me?). Just disconnected my dish network today, so I tried attaching the monoprice antenna to the mast of the removed satellite dish. Pointed the directional antenna directly at the TV towers (which the top 1/4 or so is visible above my roofline from this location). Still no luck.

So back to a suggestion earlier in this thread? Do I try ordering some attenuators? I personally think the answer is no for a couple of reasons: when I turn the directional antenna 40 degrees or more away from the towers, even my good channels (which are broadcast right next to the other tower) drop in signal strength to the 40-60% range. Also the last Tivo technical support person I talked to said that if I were getting too much signal strength that it would give me reception problems while showing 100 on signal strength.

So anyone still think attenuators are something I should try? And why? If not, what are some of my other alternatives? Experimenting with actual antennas could be costly trial/error. What about inline interference filters? Amplifiers? (tried one already - didn't seem compatible with the monoprice antenna that already has its own amplifier)

Really could use some help here. Any suggestions or discussion is greatly appreciated.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

tvoe said:


> OK - have to admit when I'm wrong. Received a new premier and I'm running into the same exact problem... I thought for sure it was the Tivo. So I'm back to troubleshooting. I'm convinced that I'm going to get this thing figured out.
> 
> Recall if you've only skimmed the thread - I am receiving one network (channels 3-1 and 3-2) just fine, but the other network (channels 5-1 and 5-2) which is broadcast at exactly the same distance and direction will not come in through the Tivo (although it does tune with other devices in the house). These channels are broadcast through true digital channels 7 and 8.
> 
> ...


It's a royal pain, but try that direction antenna 45 degrees off of straight at the towers. Then try 90 degrees. Then keep going in increments of 45 degrees until you've come full circle.

That's mostly to eliminate the unlikely.

Then redo Guided Setup and give it a different zip code for an area where the problem channel is still available OTA, although the farther away the better perhaps, or maybe better yet, a zip code for an area of the country where an entirely different station is available on that same frequency.

If the good channel and the bad channel are only separated in frequency by the same amount that the old analog channels 8 and 9 were (6 MHz), there's almost no way it's a hardware problem, especially one that's also present in the replacement box.

So I'm thinking "software that runs the hardware" problem, and since this isn't happening to TiVo owners all over the country, I suspect the problem is in the software specific to your location.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

The attached graphic (if it posts correctly) shows the TV transmitter at the balloon and my house at the black hand-drawn asterisk. Note that the coverage is considered "very strong" by the color coding. This is why I'm hesitant in thinking that buying a better rooftop antenna is going to solve this problem...


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

Now that I've figured out how to get graphics posted I thought I would also include the full data on the stations for people to scrutinize. KRTV and KUGF come through fine of the tivo, KFBB is the problematic channel. (Note, if I'm interpreting the power column correctly, that it is the strongest.)


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Only the TiVo has the problem.

Even in a different location the TiVo still has the problem.

Replacing the TiVo does not fix the problem.

So it's something common to both TiVos.

Something is keeping the TiVo from tuning the tuner to the right frequency I suspect.

Which is why I suggested the Zip Code lie as a troubleshooting technique.

If people all over the country couldn't get real channel 8 on their TiVos, we'd have heard about it by now, and TiVo would definitely have heard about it by now.


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

unitron said:


> Something is keeping the TiVo from tuning the tuner to the right frequency I suspect.
> 
> Which is why I suggested the Zip Code lie as a troubleshooting technique.


To test if it's the zip code data that's preventing the station from being tuned, a full manual channel scan could be done. I have done this in the past on my Series 3 Tivos when physical or virtual channel assignments or lineups have changed but Tribune has not yet provided updated data. The Tivo always found and displayed the new channels, but there was obviously no guide data. I don't know if the process is the same on a Premiere, but on a Series 3 you go to messages and settings->Settings->channels->Channel scan.

Unfortunately the scan takes a really long time because it also scans for cable channels, but if it hasn't been tried before this could force the Tivo to locate the channel on a different frequency or with different PSIP data.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

unitron said:


> Then redo Guided Setup and give it a different zip code for an area where the problem channel is still available OTA, although the farther away the better p


Tried a zipcode for a town 30 miles away - got the same results.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

unitron said:


> or maybe better yet, a zip code for an area of the country where an entirely different station is available on that same frequency.
> 
> If the good channel and the bad channel are only separated in frequency by the same amount that the old analog channels 8 and 9 were (6 MHz), there's almost no way it's a hardware problem, especially one that's also present in the replacement box.
> 
> So I'm thinking "software that runs the hardware" problem, and since this isn't happening to TiVo owners all over the country, I suspect the problem is in the software specific to your location.


OK - tried a zip code in a different part of the country that broadcasts ABC on channel 8. During the guided setup, the Tivo is now STUCK on "Beginning antenna channel scan. Please wait" How do I get it off of this screen?


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## S3-2501 (Jun 2, 2007)

tvoe said:


> During the guided setup, the Tivo is now STUCK on "Beginning antenna channel scan. Please wait" How do I get it off of this screen?


 If it's really stuck I guess you may have to pull the plug and start over. During guided setup, the Tivo isn't really scanning for channels, it's just going through the zip code's lineup data and checking to see if you get the channels included in that data. It's possible the the combination of frequency and PSIP data in the "fake" zip code data didn't mix well with the actual received signal and froze the software and/or tuner.

Just doing a manual channel scan will find and add any new or moved OTA channels that aren't (or weren't) present in Tribune's lineup data regardless of the zip code used during gudied setup.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

S3-2501 said:


> If it's really stuck I guess you may have to pull the plug and start over. During guided setup, the Tivo isn't really scanning for channels, it's just going through the zip code's lineup data and checking to see if you get the channels included in that data. It's possible the the combination of frequency and PSIP data in the "fake" zip code data didn't mix well with the actual received signal and froze the software and/or tuner.
> 
> Just doing a manual channel scan will find and add any new or moved OTA channels that aren't (or weren't) present in Tribune's lineup data regardless of the zip code used during gudied setup.


Thanks for jumping in with actual digital channel hunting experience.

I'm still pretty sure/almost absolutely certain I'm right about what's wrong, the trick is proving it.

(the alternative is that both his location has a problem and the first TiVo that he tried in a different location as well with the same results also had its own problem that caused the same strange symptoms.)


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

OK - bogus zipcode finally went through on setup. Problem was I thought that this zipcode had a true digital frequency of 8 in the area, but it turns out that was the NTSC channel and that it really was frequency 7 (which happens to be my "good" channel here).

Experimenting with this set-up, I get a strong signal strength on this bogus channel 8 (true digital freq 7) but no picture at all (must be due to the conflict of the downloaded info versus the OTA info). After a channel scan, I get channels 3-1 and 3-2 fine as before (these are digital freq 7), and the signal strength is an exact match for the bogus channels on frequency 7. 

Channel scan returns a "hit" for the troublesome channel at 8-3 and 8-4, with same signal strength issues as before. (These have never shown up and 8-3 and 8-4 before, but I assume the bogus zip's channels 8-1 and 8-2 bumped them down to 3 and 4?)

Retrying another bogus zipcode that actually has digital frequency 8 now. Will report back.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

Used a colorado zip code that had channel 8 for pbs. When on this channel, get a "problem with the signal" message on 8-1 and 8-2 - although it did show a pixelated abc broadcast for a moment or two.

The Tivo is not liking these shananigans. When I go to setup and channels, I get a "please wait" message that will not go away!! So I cannot access the signal strength, do a channel scan, or enable any other channels. Kind of stuck again....


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

tvoe said:


> Used a colorado zip code that had channel 8 for pbs. When on this channel, get a "problem with the signal" message on 8-1 and 8-2 - although it did show a pixelated abc broadcast for a moment or two.
> 
> The Tivo is not liking these shananigans. When I go to setup and channels, I get a "please wait" message that will not go away!! So I cannot access the signal strength, do a channel scan, or enable any other channels. Kind of stuck again....


Try it again with the paper clip as a poor man's attenuator.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

unitron said:


> Try it again with the paper clip as a poor man's attenuator.


The entire guided setup or just a channel scan with a paper clip?

Thanks for your patience...

Update from earlier: after putting the box into standby and unplugging for a few minutes, I was able to finally access the channel settings. 8-1, 8-2, 8-3, and 8-4 all have the bogus Colorado call letters and give a signal strength between 10 and 20, which was the strength I was getting with a legit zip code for 5-1 and 5-2 on digital frequency 8 before.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

unitron said:


> Try it again with the paper clip as a poor man's attenuator.


I went ahead and tried it with guided setup. Locked in all my channels with the paperclip:
3-1 and 3-2 strength 65-70 (normally 85-95)
21-1 to 21-4 strength 40-45 (normally 75-85)
5-1 and 5-2 strength 10-20 SAME AS IT ALWAYS IS!!! 

Tried hooking up the "real" antenna after the setup and 5-1 and 5-2 still aren't coming in.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

tvoe said:


> I went ahead and tried it with guided setup. Locked in all my channels with the paperclip:
> 3-1 and 3-2 strength 65-70 (normally 85-95)
> 21-1 to 21-4 strength 40-45 (normally 75-85)
> 5-1 and 5-2 strength 10-20 SAME AS IT ALWAYS IS!!!
> ...


If the exact same cable from the antenna plugged directly into the TV gives you that channel, and this is the second TiVo that won't with that same antenna feed connected, and the first wouldn't do it in a different location either, then one way or the other it has to be TiVo's fault.

Maybe the adjacent channel rejection figures on the tuners are terrible compared to your TV, and that's causing some problem, but your TV proves it can be done, so TiVo owes you an explanation of why they can't.


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

I am baffled by your problem. Have you contacted the station engineer to see if he has any ideas?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Does that attic antenna have a built-in amplifier?


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

unitron said:


> Does that attic antenna have a built-in amplifier?


Yes, it has an an in-line ac-powered amplifier that came with it. I've attached it both at the distribution for the whole house and right before the tivo box with a dedicated line from the tivo to the antenna. I've also tried without the amplifier plugged in or attached at all.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

tvoe said:


> Yes, it has an an in-line ac-powered amplifier that came with it. I've attached it both at the distribution for the whole house and right before the tivo box with a dedicated line from the tivo to the antenna. I've also tried without the amplifier plugged in or attached at all.


The second post here:

http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=217405.0

made me think I might have been on to something.

But if you bypassed it...


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## worachj (Oct 14, 2006)

*References:*
http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KFBB
http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KRTV
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_indoor_digital_TV_antennas_directional

I know its frustrating because you get good reception on other devices and its just the TiVo that's problematic. So here I am pissing in the wind with some thoughts......

Looks like KFBB and KRTV are on different towers but at the same site. Your direct line of site may be slightly different for the two channels.

KFBB broadcasts uses a non-directional antenna(make: SCA), KRTV broadcast on a directional antenna(make: DIE).

You're in a mountain area and most likely have multi-path issues with signals bouncing off hills/mountains.

The Premier TiVo is the weak link in your setup, and I heard rumors that the Premier TiVo doesn't do as well with multi-path issues.

Rabbit ear antennas are not particularly directional and can pick up shadow signals bouncing off of trees/hill/mountains.

Is your attic antenna directional?

The Tivo is your problem, so because of location/Premier TiVo/antenna/multi-path issues you may need a directional antenna pointed directly at the towers for your new TiVo to work.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

worachj said:


> *References:*
> http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KFBB
> http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KRTV
> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_indoor_digital_TV_antennas_directional
> ...


Yes, my monoprice antenna is directional. But maybe there's a MORE highly directional antenna out there that I should try?

Other than trying different antennas, is there anything else that can be done if the issue is multi-path as suggested?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

worachj said:


> *References:*
> http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KFBB
> http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KRTV
> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_indoor_digital_TV_antennas_directional
> ...


Rabbit ears tend to be front and back directional, and not so good on the sides.

So if they're freestanding and not built into something, you can slowly rotate the base and see from which direction a station comes in best.


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## worachj (Oct 14, 2006)

If its a multi-path issue then antenna type, antenna aim and antenna location/placement seem to be the best solutions. I know you tried moving the TiVo to different locations and you were still unsuccessful. You may just be in the twilight zone of signal reception for your Premier to work (Strong signal and multi-path).

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/fixes.html

http://www.dtvusaforum.com/dtv-hdtv-reception-antenna-discussion/4338-multipath-causes-cures.html


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## worachj (Oct 14, 2006)

You could try using a signal splitter in reverse fashion and combine your attic antenna and rabbit ears. Maybe the combine signal of the two antennas will give your TiVo something to lock in on for that one problematic station.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Did you ever get the engineering department of that station involved?


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## bshrock (Jan 6, 2012)

unitron said:


> Did you ever get the engineering department of that station involved?


 Please, contact the station.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

bshrock said:


> Please, contact the station.


I have tried, via email, twice so far. First email was to the engineering department only. Second one was also addressed to the station manager.

Still have not had a reply....  Hate to apply too much pressure - they really don't HAVE to help me afterall.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

tvoe said:


> I have tried, via email, twice so far. First email was to the engineering department only. Second one was also addressed to the station manager.
> 
> Still have not had a reply....  Hate to apply too much pressure - they really don't HAVE to help me afterall.


What, they don't have a telephone?

They don't have to help you, but one would think that they'd want as many viewers as possible


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

unitron said:


> What, they don't have a telephone?
> 
> They don't have to help you, but one would think that they'd want as many viewers as possible


The 28th of "last month" it was suggested the first call should likely be the "station engineer"! I'd guess you could have had the situation under control maybe weeks ago!


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## mblloyd (Feb 11, 2007)

The TV station in question might help you out of the kindness of their heart but since you get good reception on this channel without the TiVo they will not likely take any responsibility.
Multipath might be a good place to lay the blame but it wont likely lead to a solution. This station doesnt broadcast a circularly polarized signal so a circularly polarized receiving antenna (very scarce) will not eliminate multi-path problems.
From this point, I am describing what came from personal experience with, not multi-path, but multi-signal. This was done at the direction of a knowledgeable Comcast chief engineer who came to the rescue.
The problem (multipath or multisignal) is solely with the TiVo; two units show identical symptoms. Does this indicate a design problem? It doesnt seem likely but what else can you go on. How about going after potential grounding or screening problems. With the transmitter tower only about a mile away this can lead to multiple signals getting into the TiVo from several sources the antenna lead ground shield, RCA audio cables(especially with broken ground connections), failing F-connectors, or bad TiVo cabinet grounding.
Antenna lead: The connection to the TiVo is via coax. At the antenna connect immediately to the best shielded coax you can find. RG-58/59 are OUT; quad shield is in. Run a single coax (no connectors) from the antenna to the TiVo or else replace all of the F-type connectors in this run. They go bad, noticeable especially at the lower frequency channels. When they go bad your coax shield can pick up its own signal in competition to that on the center conductor. At the TiVo add a ground block to the coax and make a good electrical connection to the TiVo cabinet from the block. Ideally this block would go to a system dedicated ground rod (in the ground!).
TiVo ground: The TiVo line cord has no ground wire and you may want to add a ground wire from the coax grounding block to a dedicated (or house) ground, as well as to the TiVo cabinet. At this point you have accomplished something effectively close to the paperclip antenna, only more directional.
Disconnect all RCA audio cables for the TiVo at both ends of the cables. RCA cables can open at the shield connection and then they make a good antenna
Disconnect all other cables from the TV set except what is needed to operate with a TiVo video input signal.
Have you looked inside the TiVo box? If so, you may have reassembled the cover and lost a good connection on the shielding. Try again.
Have a go at the KFBB-TV signal strength. If all of this did not help, build a cage of copper window screening around the TiVo cabinet and ground it with the coax and TiVo.
Well, maybe.
Rabbit ear results aside, your antenna amp could be a big question mark. It can be overdriven and, if powered from a power supply at the TiVo, poorly grounded. The shield, outer conductor, can be picking up the KFBB signal. This is the "multi" in multi-signal. 
Is your attic antenna grounded. A must at your short distance to the tower.


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## tvoe (Jul 28, 2012)

mblloyd said:


> The TV station in question might help you out of the kindness of their heart but since you get good reception on this channel without the TiVo they will not likely take any responsibility.


AGREED! It's the reason I've went to this forum as many of you good people have actually _wanted_ to help me.

Thanks a ton for all the hints mblloyd- I will give them a try over the next few weeks. Would like to try the box at a friend's house that is 30 miles away first though. He uses a traditional outdoor antenna and receives these channels OK through his TV.

I very well might be wrong, but I suspect (only a hypothesis here!) that I will still not receive the troublesome station. I think there is something inherently wrong with the tivo trying to tune these particular adjacent vhf frequencies at comparable strengths. I sought input on a separate thread to see if anyone is receiving frequencies 7 and 8 under similar circumstances, and have not a positive reply yet. I think that this may be a very unique situation limited to the Great Falls, MT market and that my case has maybe brought a defect in the Tivo to light. I could very well be the first person trying to use a Tivo to receive these channels OTA in this market. They are not sold locally, and satellite/cable is quite prevalent here.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

tvoe said:


> I very well might be wrong, but I suspect (only a hypothesis here!) that I will still not receive the troublesome station. I think there is something inherently wrong with the tivo trying to tune these particular adjacent vhf frequencies at comparable strengths. I sought input on a separate thread to see if anyone is receiving frequencies 7 and 8 under similar circumstances, and have not a positive reply yet. I think that this may be a very unique situation limited to the Great Falls, MT market and that my case has maybe brought a defect in the Tivo to light. I could very well be the first person trying to use a Tivo to receive these channels OTA in this market. They are not sold locally, and satellite/cable is quite prevalent here.


In the old days, the FCC tried to avoid assigning adjacent channels in the same market because it was difficult to design steep enough filters to eliminate reception of the adjacent channel without distorting the waveform of the desired channel. I don't know whether that's still a problem with modern digital tuners, and I don't know what kind of spec the TiVo has for adjacent channel rejection. It would be interesting to know whether the TiVo can receive channel 7 in a market without channel 8 and vice versa.


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