# FCC Cablecard Rule Changes



## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

Interesting comments by Tom Rogers in his earnings release today:



> Additionally on the TiVo-Owned front, we are also encouraged by a recent Federal Communications Commission action updating its rules to, among other things, ensure that retail CableCARD devices have access to all linear cable channels delivered using switched digital video techniques, providing discounts on cable bundles to subscribers who bring their own retail box, and providing a CableCARD self-installation option so that retail customers do not need to wait around for a cable installer. The FCC expressed its intention to strictly enforce its CableCARD rules and we believe these updates will help make our TiVo-Owned products more attractive to consumers. We also believe that this will make it easier for our CableCARD customers to deal with issues at the point of sale.


Discounts on cable bundles with TiVo and self-install of cablecards.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Any link to read all the details of the earning call?

This is just repeating the new rules.

Unfortunately the cable companies were given 9 months to allow self-installs if they already allow self-install of equipments. They were given 12 months if they don't allow any form of self-install.

Also with regards to the discounts this is more to do with cable companies who made it cheaper to keep their DVR/STB due to how it was bundled. Some people paid more even if they only had a CableCARD. The new rule is supposed to do away with it, but people are now arguing over what formula the companies will be required to use for the discount.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

NVM found the link.

http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-calendar


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Comcast allows self-installs in some areas but not others so are they bound by the 9 month rule in areas that they don't currently offer self-installs?

Scott


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

I didnt think FiOS allows self installs of cable cards either..would be nice if they did!


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

HerronScott said:


> Comcast allows self-installs in some areas but not others so are they bound by the 9 month rule in areas that they don't currently offer self-installs?
> 
> Scott


As I recall, they're bound by the shorter timeframe if they allow self-installs of equipment in any area.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

In my area Comcast recently stopped charging for CableCARDs (well they still charge for a 2nd card in a device like the original S3). My guess is that this was a result of the FCC stating that CableCARDs had to be a separate item on the bill even for cable provided cable boxes.

I doubt Comcast will ever allow self-installs, regardless of what the FCC says.


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

morac said:


> I doubt Comcast will ever allow self-installs, regardless of what the FCC says.


I don't think they're going to have a choice. A small cable company could probably get away with it, but the nation's largest cable provider would have a hard time blatantly disregarding an FCC mandate.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

generaltso said:


> I don't think they're going to have a choice. A small cable company could probably get away with it, but the nation's largest cable provider would have a hard time blatantly disregarding an FCC mandate.


Particularly the nation's largest cable provider trying to complete what is probably the largest entertainment merger in history, and therefore one in the spotlight and one wanting to make the government happy.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

generaltso said:


> I don't think they're going to have a choice. A small cable company could probably get away with it, but the nation's largest cable provider would have a hard time blatantly disregarding an FCC mandate.


Oh they'll say they do and then they still won't be able to pair it on the phone requiring a truck roll. Unless they set up a system where you can type in the pairing info on a web site this is doomed to failure. That in itself would be dangerous because I can see mistyping a number a depairing someone else's cards.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

morac said:


> I doubt Comcast will ever allow self-installs, regardless of what the FCC says.


I did a self-install with Comcast three days ago.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

cherry ghost said:


> I did a self-install with Comcast three days ago.


I did also but it was three years ago, now they won't let me but they did give me a free truck roll because I asked to do it myself. So they may get around the self install mandate by not charging for the install of cable cards.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

I have been involved in about 10 cablecard installs with Comcast over the past five years. Originally they were tedious and always with problems. I think I have trained a dozen of their techs on how to do it. My last one about 3 months ago was unbelievable. The Tech put the card in the box, called his office and told them to authorize it and it was finished in 5 minutes, without a problem. He said that their system now sent the cablecard-id, host and data numbers automatically back to the headend, eliminating the need to read and communicate them over the phone (or internet).

There is really no need to have a truck roll here and I have been trying to convince them of that.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

My Comcast CableCARD install this week was a $16 truck roll, where the one earlier this year was an outrageous $79. I didn't ask for a self-install for reasons below. The last time the tech used his handheld to text the numbers in. This time he called and it only took one call with one trip through the numbers, "It should be working now" - and it was.

For my $16 the tech did a complete health check to look for the weak signal I've been getting so he was here for over an hour. It took over an hour for us for figure out how the cables were routed because I forgot that my main output is wired weird and not on the home run from my wiring close the other outlets are on..


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

My last install didn't go so well. The installer (contractor) couldn't reach any one on the Comcast dispatch number and sat on hold for 40 minutes before hanging up. He ended up calling his office, who could add the cards to my account and activate them, but not pair them. He said that was good enough and left. I tried calling support, but you have a better chance of winning the lottery than getting a phone tech who knows how to pair cards. I had to go the Twitter route to get them paired. I can't see self installs having any chance of working with the current support system setup. 

Comcast can't even provision modems correctly (my upload speeds are provisioned wrong) and they've been out over 10 years.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

cherry ghost said:


> I did a self-install with Comcast three days ago.


Love your avatar...

On topic...I've had several CableCARD installs with Mediacom and only been charged for one, as I recall....


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## LarryKay (Nov 20, 2002)

Joe01880 said:


> I didnt think FiOS allows self installs of cable cards either..would be nice if they did!


This week, FIOS made me wait 3 weeks for an installer to come to my home with the cable card. He had no clue as to what to do. I opened the case for the card and plugged into my new 2nd Tivo. I turned on the Tivo. The installer went to the TV and read the info to someone on his cellphone to activate it. what a waste of the installers time ( 2hours) plus my waiting fro 5 hours for him to arrive_ "anywhere from 8am TO 5pm"_.


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## brshoemak (Nov 27, 2010)

I recently got a Tivo Premiere and called Comcast for a Cablecard install. I was expecting the worst after all the horror stories on this site, but I'm glad it didn't go that way.

The techician (who I actually knew) stuck the card in the back of the Tivo, it was detected, there was a 5 minute call to the headend and that was that. Dual-tuner digital goodness. Smooth as silk install for me.

Soooo much better than my ghetto rigging of a Series2 analog + digital through external Comcast tuner - that was a nightmare of cables and recording limitations.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

morac said:


> Oh they'll say they do and then they still won't be able to pair it on the phone requiring a truck roll. Unless they set up a system where you can type in the pairing info on a web site this is doomed to failure. That in itself would be dangerous because I can see mistyping a number a depairing someone else's cards.


Agreed. This will allow the cable company to point the finger at you or Tivo, saying it's your fault it's not working, and they won't to do anything to fix it. I'm sure they'll suggest you use their DVR instead.

I think the FIOS model is good. The FCC can make the truck roll free. If it wastes the installer's time, and that time isn't getting paid for anymore, the cable co. will naturally want to improve self-installation. (Or hide the charge in the cable card fees).


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## Gene S (Feb 11, 2003)

Wait, what does this mean?



> ensure that retail CableCARD devices have access to all linear cable channels delivered using switched digital video techniques


Tivo can already access linear cable channels using only a cable card. It's asking to receive all channels via SDV?


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## Judremy (Jun 28, 2004)

Gene S said:


> Tivo can already access linear cable channels using only a cable card. It's asking to receive all channels via SDV?


It SHOULD mean that the retail boxes should be allowed to talk up the line to request the channel or via the internet. The cable companies will interpret it as "sell tuning adapters".


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

jrm01 said:


> Interesting comments by Tom Rogers in his earnings release today:
> 
> Discounts on cable bundles with TiVo and self-install of cablecards.


We initially discussed this here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=457425&highlight=cablecard+rules

But that's the long and short of it, plus a few other things like mandatory support of SDV. TiVo's IP backchannel proposal in lieu of tuning adapters was shot down. THat would have been awesome for those afflicted with SDV if approved.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

Gene S said:


> Wait, what does this mean?
> 
> Tivo can already access linear cable channels using only a cable card. It's asking to receive all channels via SDV?


It means that there has to be some means for CableCARD devices to access SDV on systems that have it. The FCC did not mandate any method to do so, nor did it mandate SDV.

Previously SDV support for CableCARD was not mandatory but I believe it was widely supported by cable companies on a voluntary basis, thanks to TiVo's efforts.


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## Judremy (Jun 28, 2004)

Raj said:


> It means that there has to be some means for CableCARD devices to access SDV on systems that have it. The FCC did not mandate any method to do so, nor did it mandate SDV.
> 
> Previously SDV support for CableCARD was not mandatory but I believe it was widely supported by cable companies on a voluntary basis, thanks to TiVo's efforts.


So is it basically the tuning adapter "solution" that we are currently stuck with?


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

morac said:


> I doubt Comcast will ever allow self-installs, regardless of what the FCC says.


I did a self-install in Houston. They charged me $10 for the privilege, which was very annoying, but they did allow it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Judremy said:


> So is it basically the tuning adapter "solution" that we are currently stuck with?


likely in the real world for most.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Judremy said:


> So is it basically the tuning adapter "solution" that we are currently stuck with?


Yes, if that's what the cable company chooses to deploy. The difference is that it's required to work. The FCC has provided a place to complain and warned that they will strictly enforce these new rules.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

nrc said:


> ... The difference is that it's required to work. The FCC has provided a place to complain and warned that they will strictly enforce these new rules.


should i laugh now or wait a year?

the FCC so far has been the poster child for ineffective regulatory enforcement when it comes to third party device support for um, I dont know, 14 years? Why should this year be different then the previous 14?

Hopefully I'm completely wrong and all of a sudden they become relevant but I just dont believe it. Especially since they rolled over on any quick meaningfull changes. 9-12 months to allow self installs? No IP backchannel? home gateway devices- when we get to it? what's different?

it's like the spoiled kid whose mom says "this time I really mean it"


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Judremy said:


> The cable companies will interpret it as "sell tuning adapters".


But aren't tuning adapters actually typically free (unlike cable cards)?



MichaelK said:


> should i laugh now or wait a year?
> 
> the FCC so far has been the poster child for ineffective regulatory enforcement when it comes to third party device support for um, I dont know, 14 years? Why should this year be different then the previous 14?


Have _you_ complained to the FCC? We wouldn't even HAVE cable cards if it were not for the FCC, thus no (reasonable(*)) Tivo use currently.

(*) No, I don't consider an IR blaster controlling an external box to be reasonable, which is why I never had a cable box for premium channels. (Long long ago, I could get/pay for HBO on analog with no box.) I still wish I had Clear QAM support, but cable cards work pretty darn well.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

MichaelK said:


> should i laugh now or wait a year?
> 
> the FCC so far has been the poster child for ineffective regulatory enforcement when it comes to third party device support for um, I dont know, 14 years? Why should this year be different then the previous 14?


Only time will tell. At least now consumers will have a channel for complaint and (hopefully) some kind of leverage when a cable company rep says that they don't have multi-stream cards or tuning adapters.

I don't expect a big change, but I do think that we'll see incremental improvement along the lines of what we've seen with CableCARD installs. For whatever that's worth.

On the subject of charging for tuning adapters, I think the new rules will prevent that. The requirement for pricing parity should dictate that if a cable company box doesn't require any extra charge hardware to tune SDV channels neither should a third party box.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm being charged a $7.95 "digital outlet" fee now with my extra cable card. It used to be I got one free and the other one was $1.50. Such BS. I was told that it was $7.95 for the second card now.


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

b_scott said:


> I'm being charged a $7.95 "digital outlet" fee now with my extra cable card. It used to be I got one free and the other one was $1.50. Such BS. I was told that it was $7.95 for the second card now.


Not if they're used in the same device on the same cable outlet. You have to pay $7.95 for the First cable card on the Second outlet.

If both cable cards are in the same TiVo on the same outlet, they're billing you wrong.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

generaltso said:


> Not if they're used in the same device on the same cable outlet. You have to pay $7.95 for the First cable card on the Second outlet.
> 
> If both cable cards are in the same TiVo on the same outlet, they're billing you wrong.


no, it's two M-Cards, two Tivos. But it used to only be $1.50.


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

b_scott said:


> no, it's two M-Cards, two Tivos. But it used to only be $1.50.


Then they were billing you wrong before and now they've fixed it.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

generaltso said:


> Then they were billing you wrong before and now they've fixed it.


I hope you incorrect as i am being charges $1.50/cable card (and have been for over 3 years now) and i have 4 cards, that would mean going from $6.60 inc tax etc to about $35/month or about $28/month more, I would not be a happy camper. I do have a one year contract now so i hope they can't change prices on me in the middle of such a contract. Oh I have Comcast.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

lessd said:


> I hope you incorrect as i am being charges $1.50/cable card (and have been for over 3 years now) and i have 4 cards, that would mean going from $6.60 inc tax etc to about $35/month or about $28/month more, I would not be a happy camper. I do have a one year contract now so i hope they can't change prices on me in the middle of such a contract. Oh I have Comcast.


I know it differs everywhere, even in different regions of the same provider, but the policy for Comcast in the San Fransisco Bay area has always been to include the first cable card in lieu of the set top box, and $1.50 for the second card in the same box. There is a specific item in the printed price sheet for this second cable card, and it is clearly distinct from the $7.95 charge for another outlet.


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

CharlesH said:


> I know it differs everywhere, even in different regions of the same provider, but the policy for Comcast in the San Fransisco Bay area has always been to include the first cable card in lieu of the set top box, and $1.50 for the second card in the same box. There is a specific item in the printed price sheet for this second cable card, and it is clearly distinct from the $7.95 charge for another outlet.


Same here. The first cable card on the first outlet is free. The second cable card in that same device is $1.50. Technically, the first cable card on a second outlet is free, but they charge you a fee of $7.95 as an "additional digital outlet" fee. The second cable card on that second outlet is $1.50. It seems like most Comcast regions are moving to this pricing model if they haven't already.

This may have to change when they finally allow self installs, because Comcast won't necessarily be able to tell if two cable cards are in the same device or in two separate devices on two separate outlets. That's probably part of the reason they require the truck roll for installation.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

Same pricing model is used here. However, two months ago I broke down and got a cablecard installed in a second THD. They are charging the $1.50 for the card but "forgot" to add the charge for the Additional Digital Outlet.

I haven't had the time to call and tell them of their error.


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## Papageno (Jan 30, 2005)

I have Comcast in Portland OR, and will soon be getting a TiVo Premiere and one multistream cable card. Since I won't be using the company's cable box anymore, can they charge me an "HD Technology Fee"? Doesn't the CableCard + TiVo Premiere automatically give me access to the HD channels for which I have SD versions in my particular lineup?

(I have Digital Economy, BTW--basically a good bit of what's in Digital Starter, minus FX, TNT, TBS--the hardest to give up--and the ESPN stuff, and VH1 and MTV and CMT, none of which I give two sh*ts about.)


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Comcast recently replaced it's per-box HD charge with a single "HD Technology Fee" per household. From what I've read elsewhere, in some areas this fee applies as long as you get HD channels, regardless if you have a box or not. So there's no set answer to your question. You'll need to call and ask.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Comcast around here allows self installs, I've done several recently. You can also get a tech on the phone who knows how to pair a card, I've been sucessful with that about 4 out of 5 times.

I'm also being charged $1.50 per card, but not being charged extra outlet fees. I should get the first card for no charge (included in my package), but I don't want to stir things up and get a $6-95 extra outlet fee instead of 2x$1.50 second cable card fees. The bill lists 2xsecond cable card fees, but no first cable cards.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

btwyx said:


> I'm also being charged $1.50 per card, but not being charged extra outlet fees. I should get the first card for no charge (included in my package), but I don't want to stir things up and get a $6-95 extra outlet fee instead of 2x$1.50 second cable card fees. The bill lists 2xsecond cable card fees, but no first cable cards.


I just received a price list with my current Comcast bill, and it lists "Cable Card (first card in device) - $0.00" and "Cable Card (additional card in same device) - $1.50"


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

FIOS rapes you with the $4/card forever charge.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Once the new rules come into full effect I expect that we'll see a lot of companies pick up the "one card per device is free" model. That will be the only way to avoid adding a charge for their own devices that contain cable cards.


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## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

nrc said:


> Once the new rules come into full effect I expect that we'll see a lot of companies pick up the "one card per device is free" model. That will be the only way to avoid adding a charge for their own devices that contain cable cards.


Naah. They'll slash the rates for the box itself, and add the fee, for a net change of zero.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

LoadStar said:


> Naah. They'll slash the rates for the box itself, and add the fee, for a net change of zero.


Some will, but they can't set their lease fees too low relative to cable card fees because they've been arguing that cable card boxes are expensive. I'm sure that some will also just throw a cable card fee on for existing customers and blame the rate hike on the FCC.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I don't think any of that will happen since those things didn't pass. They are only required to list it on their yearly pricing sheet from what I remember. They aren't required to include it itemized on the bill. 

The only rule that did pass was the discount if the bundle included a STB to address those that were paying more for turning down a STB. They are still arguing over what formula to use to figure out what discount CC users get on top if they elect not to get the STB.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

innocentfreak said:


> I don't think any of that will happen since those things didn't pass. They are only required to list it on their yearly pricing sheet from what I remember. They aren't required to include it itemized on the bill.
> 
> The only rule that did pass was the discount if the bundle included a STB to address those that were paying more for turning down a STB. They are still arguing over what formula to use to figure out what discount CC users get on top if they elect not to get the STB.


They don't have to itemize it on the bill, but they are required to charge the same for cable cards whether they are in a leased set top box or a third party box. Not sure what the cable companies won with that distinction. Just the option of making the first cable card free and not having to add a billing item, I think.

From the report and order document:


> Therefore, we adopt a requirement that cable operators prominently list the fee for their CableCARDs as a line item on their websites (readily accessible to all members ofthe public) and annual rate cards separate from their host devices, and provide such information orally or in writing at a subscriber's request. *These CabieCARD lease fees must be uniform across a cable system regardless of whether the CabieCARD is used in a leased set-top box or a navigation device purchased at retail.*


http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=7020921638
(Paragraph 19 on page 10)

And the actual rule:


> (C) CableCARD rental fees shall be priced uniformly throughout a cable system by such provider without regard to the intended use in operator-supplied or consumer owned equipment. No service fee shall be imposed on a subscriber for support of a subscriber-provided device that is not assessed on subscriber use of an operator provided device.


http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=7020921639
(Paragraph C on page 46)


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Right but does any company charge less for the STB than they do CableCARD? I have never heard of one. This is why I don't see it changing anything.

For example even the SD STB is $6.99 I believe from FiOS while the CableCARD is $3.99. I don't see any changes as a result of the ruling, but hopefully I am wrong and prices go down.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Frack! Verizon was supposed to have a tech here at my home this a.m., between 8am and noon. NO SHOW. Called at 12:15 to find out what was going on, was told by automated system that tech would be paged to call me and I should hear from them within an hour. If I didn't call back within an hour, their automated system would call me back. Sure enough, no call from the tech. 1:15, their automated system called back to find out if I had heard from the tech, uh, NO.

Talking to customer service on the phone, they have to jump through hoops to get a hold of the tech that was supposed to be here. Tech claims they were here this a.m. (I bet my nosey neighbors would dispute that, as would I since I was up this a.m. well before they were scheduled to get here, never heard a doorbell, no phone call on home phone or cell, etc.) and further claimed they tried to contact me by phone. B.S. No phone calls (and Verizon's own caller ID on my phone would confirm that, as well as my iPhone and AT&T wireless showing no inbound calls on my iPhone), no doorbell ringing, no knocks on the door, nothing.

I suggested they tell the tech that they have a GPS on the truck and they know he/she is a lieing sack of feces. I have no clue where the tech was, but no way they came to my neighborhood or my home this a.m.

I'm incredibly frustrated with Verizon over this, and about to get through to their billing department now where I can read them the riot act. I have no idea if they'll offer anything for the missed appointment, but I really wish the FCC had some customer rights rules that made them pay customers a healthy charge for missing appointments during the time we have to wait for self installs to actually happen. I could install the card in about 2 minutes, sit on the phone for 40 minutes waiting for a tech and still have come out many hours of frustration ahead. Please, please, please bring on the self installs sooner rather than later.

Meanwhile, whomever the tech is... as a friend suggested -- I hope they lose power and get to wait for a window between 8am and 5pm only to be found that no one was home, the lights were all off, the doorbells didn't work, no one answered the phones, etc., so they too can wait another 10 days or so until their service is restored. Bastage.


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