# Lost 4/29/09 "The Variable"



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, I'm guessing the Losties' attempts to change the past are what will cause it to happen...

If the ancient Greek poets had science fiction, then Daniel's life could have been an ancient Greek tragedy.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Daniel was right the first time. Whatever happened happened. 

Daniel is Widmore's son? Cool.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

*
BEST
SHOW
ON
TELEVISION
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

"We disappeared off of a plane in mid-air and ended up in 1977. I'm getting pretty used to insane."


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I thought it was going to be Kate who shot him, and not Eliose. Kate would have realized that she was on that plane being taken back to face murder charges. Why would she want that?

What Daniel really wanted was to save Charlotte's life. That's all


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Chekov's H-Bomb?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Called Daniel being Widmore's son like forever ago.

(quick one from last week or before: did everyone catch that Desmond named his boat after the Dickens book he was always carrying around to read before he dies?)

Good to see a nice wrap-up of why Daniel was sad when he saw the TV (but wasn't sure about it).. He was sad from just a few minutes ago but already forgot.. Nice that they showed us him extremely "gone" and indicated that the island would heal him. The card test with Charlotte wasn't him seeing if he was getting worse, it was seeing how much the island had healed him yet.

Again with another misplaced tension scene.. "No.. My son is.. ..Daniel Faraday.."

(although upon rewatch it is a bit better the second time around, what with the ending of the episode and all)

Phil, Jack. Jack, Phil.

At one point above the Orchid station (0:09) I thought I heard the smoke monster but instead it turned out to be a jackhammer.. What if the sound the smoke monster makes is like an echo of something it heard before.. like if it was around when the Swan station is being built, a jackhammer digs too low and causes the incident, and the sound echoes in it forever..

How did Faraday have such detail about exactly when the hatch site would explode, etc? Had Widmore briefed him before the boat ride? He wouldn't remember that.. is all of that written in his journal? How would Widmore know? I know that the orientation film mentioned bits etc, and that WE know, but how did Faraday learn about it in the 70s? (in Ann Arbor)

For a minute or so during the first watching I thought they were going to screw up with his uniform down in the Orchid dig, since his jumpsuit had no station name on it, and I thought it was supposed to be an Orchid logo.. Turns out they did it perfectly and I misremembered.. it's just his hardhat that has the Orchid logo on it.. his jumpsuit says Dharma (just rewatched the scene from the season opener).


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I thought it was going to be Kate who shot him, and not Eliose. Kate would have realized that she was on that plane being taken back to face murder charges. Why would she want that?
> 
> What Daniel really wanted was to save Charlotte's life. That's all


Agreed on what he wanted. Also agreed that Kate has no desire for any of Daniel's plan to happen.. she wouldn't meet Jack OR Sawyer, and probably more importantly in her head right now, she'd never meet Aaron. (And, oh, yeah, she'd be in jail)


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> Chekov's H-Bomb?


Looks like it was a dud.. Nice having a reason why it mattered that didn't relate to its actually going off (yet, anyway). It was in the story so he'd have a reason to sneak off to see the Hostiles.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I like how when Daniel first said "My mother is the only one on the island that can get us back where we're supposed to be", that it felt uneasy.. like "oh great.. that'll suck.. she has magic knowledge of how to get them somewhere? ********".. But it turns out it was great - all she knew is where they buried the bomb (because he told her to bury it). He wanted the bomb to set it off so he could keep the energy at the Swan site from being released and requiring that the button-pushing version of the hatch station be built, so that 815 wouldn't go down, so he'd never be asked by Widmore to go to the island.


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

Very sad to see Faraday go. Expected (considering it was a Faraday flashback episode) but still a total downer.

"Your son is Benjamin Linus?!?"
"Good Lord, no."


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## Dad (Oct 27, 2001)

hanumang said:


> Very sad to see Faraday go. Expected (considering it was a Faraday flashback episode) but still a total downer.
> 
> "Your son is Benjamin Linus?!?"
> "Good Lord, no."


Buy why did Eloise send Faraday back if she knew she was going to shoot him. She certainly indicated in her conversation with Widmore that she knew (obvious after the fact). I suppose it was to cure him. But... how did Daniel get back to 1977? And why not tell him how to approach the others?

I found this to be a let down but I'll wait to see how this episode plays out in big picture.

Oh, and all hell is breaking loose back at Dharmaville.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

When Daniel tells Pierre that Miles is his son, and says to Miles "I'm just making sure that your father does what he's supposed to do", I think he means that Pierre is supposed to send all of the families off of the island (including young Miles and his mom, and Charlotte and his mom).

Interesting, by the way, that by Daniel wavering in his belief that you can't change things, a tragedy occurred. Same thing happened when Locke lost faith in the purpose behind the button, he smashed the monitor, and Desmond had to turn the failsafe key.

By the way, I'd still like some answer as to why instead of building the hatch and the whole button system, they didn't just set up a remote timer to do whatever turning that key did, and do that (blow up the dam). Was the world any different after that happening (shy of an occasional picture frame changing?  )

His mother was pretty damned rude to Theresa..


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Danny Boy got back to 77 the same way Sawyer et. al. did.

I haven't a theory why Eloise sent him back except for her belief in "Destiny"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> By the way, I'd still like some answer as to why instead of building the hatch and the whole button system, they didn't just set up a remote timer to do whatever turning that key did, and do that (blow up the dam). Was the world any different after that happening (shy of an occasional picture frame changing?  )


I'm guessing they'll have plenty more to say on the matter...


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Dad said:


> Buy why did Eloise send Faraday back if she knew she was going to shoot him. She certainly indicated in her conversation with Widmore that she knew (obvious after the fact). I suppose it was to cure him. But... how did Daniel get back to 1977.


When his mom sent him back, he got to the island in our present time via Whidmore's boat that brought him, Charlotte, Naomi, etc. He got back to '77 the same way that Sawyer, Miles, etc. did when Locke turned the wheel that stopped the island from jumping around in time and left them in '77.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Juliette didn't seem too pleased with Sawyer talking to "Freckles". Seemingly she & Sawyer are in deep trouble, but being held by Dharma is probably the least of their problems. Ol' 1977 jest ain't what it used to be no more.

I'll miss H.G. Wells.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Oh mah gosh. This is an awesome show.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> At one point above the Orchid station (0:09) I thought I heard the smoke monster but instead it turned out to be a jackhammer.. What if the sound the smoke monster makes is like an echo of something it heard before.. like if it was around when the Swan station is being built, a jackhammer digs too low and causes the incident, and the sound echoes in it forever..


You need to stop getting high while watching this show, man... I can picture this bit of dialogue being the result of some good times. I'm reading it in the voice of the stoner from "Dazed and Confused". It is funny.

Anyway, like the rest of this season, I viewed this episode with "meh" attitude. Loved that the Dharma storyline finally moved, with some good shoot outs, Sawyer and Juliet being found out, Radzinsky getting shot (seriously wanna kick that dude's ass...). I also liked the Hawking stuff.

My question is this... Hawking knows that in 1977 she killed a guy who said he was her son... When she eventually has a son and he grows up to be that same guy, she knows it's true. And yet in 2004 she still sends him back to the island, knowing that he'll time travel and the she will kill him. I know how Hawking rolls, she's all about destiny and you "have" to do this or things will course-correct anyway. But what's up with her not even *trying* to change things to save her son. Even though Desmond knew Charlie was gonna die no matter what he did, he still did everything he could to stop it, while Hawking actually *pushed* him to go.

I understand that for those who traveled BACK, "whatever happened, happened". We are watching stuff that has already *led* to the events of prior seasons. By why does that apply to someone like Hawking, who potentially had the power to change things _in the present_ by stopping Farady from ever getting on that boat. But she chose not to. That b***h is messed up.

What I don't get is why would Jack and Kate even WANT to change their future? I would think their main priority at this point would be to get back to the right time, PERIOD. Forget about changing stuff or staying in the past--it drives me nuts that their primary motivation isn't to just get back to 2007. I think Kate wants to prevent the crash because she knows that Claire will safely deliver Aaron and they'd be together (does Kate know Claire was giving him up?).

My question is, if they did stop the crash, what happens to this version of them? Do they simply co-exist with the other versions (the ones that land safely in LA?) Im guessing they do. If they live to 2004 there would be two copies of them, just as there are two now (adults who time traveled, plus their child-selves).

My head hurts.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jeeters said:


> When his mom sent him back, he got to the island in our present time via Whidmore's boat that brought him, Charlotte, Naomi, etc. He got back to '77 the same way that Sawyer, Miles, etc. did when Locke turned the wheel that stopped the island from jumping around in time and left them in '77.


Right, but she knew the ultimate consequence.

She just had more faith than he did not only that what happened, happened, but that what happened MUST happen. And although she was right about the happened (and, I'm guessing, the must), I'd say his wavering faith and his willingness to do the wrong thing is what makes him a better person than she is. Although if she were a better person, the world might well no longer exist!


mrdazzo7 said:


> My question is this... Hawking knows that in 1977 she killed a guy who said he was her son... When she eventually has a son and he grows up to be that same guy, she knows it's true. And yet in 2004 she still sends him back to the island, knowing that he'll time travel and the she will kill him.


Maybe she just knows that the alternative would be worse, and she's enough of a cold-hearted bastard to do the right thing.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

"You guys were in 1954? Like.. Fonzie times?"


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

mrdazzo7 said:


> My question is this... Hawking knows that in 1977 she killed a guy who said he was her son... When she eventually has a son and he grows up to be that same guy, she knows it's true. And yet in 2004 she still sends him back to the island, knowing that he'll time travel and the she will kill him. I know how Hawking rolls, she's all about destiny and you "have" to do this or things will course-correct anyway. But what's up with her not even *trying* to change things to save her son. Even though Desmond knew Charlie was gonna die no matter what he did, he still did everything he could to stop it, while Hawking actually *pushed* him to go.
> 
> I understand that for those who traveled BACK, "whatever happened, happened". We are watching stuff that has already *led* to the events of prior seasons. By why does that apply to someone like Hawking, who potentially had the power to change things _in the present_ by stopping Farady from ever getting on that boat. But she chose not to. That b***h is messed up. ...
> My question is, if they did stop the crash, what happens to this version of them? Do they simply co-exist with the other versions (the ones that land safely in LA?) Im guessing they do. If they live to 2004 there would be two copies of them, just as there are two now (adults who time traveled, plus their child-selves).
> ...


First she apparently believes that awful things will happen if the past is attempted to be altered. Remember seasons ago when she was adamant with Desmond that he not alter his mission lest there be terrible consequences? Remember tonite's conversation with Widmore regarding 'losing' an offspring? She believes she sacrificed her son to save the universe.

That leads to your last question. Some, Eloise Hawking is one, believe that what happens is not some simple co-existance. Maybe the universe flashes out of existance in a burst of tachyons causing a space time singularity and a Big Bang creation of a new universe.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I understand that for those who traveled BACK, "whatever happened, happened". We are watching stuff that has already *led* to the events of prior seasons. By why does that apply to someone like Hawking, who potentially had the power to change things _in the present_ by stopping Farady from ever getting on that boat. But she chose not to. That b***h is messed up.


She knows it ultimately doesn't matter. Judging by her previous conversations with Desmond about course correction, Daniel will die no matter what she does. In her mind she is making a sacrifice for the greater good of the universe by not trying to change anything.



mrdazzo7 said:


> What I don't get is why would Jack and Kate even WANT to change their future? I would think their main priority at this point would be to get back to the right time, PERIOD. Forget about changing stuff or staying in the past--it drives me nuts that their primary motivation isn't to just get back to 2007. I think Kate wants to prevent the crash because she knows that Claire will safely deliver Aaron and they'd be together (does Kate know Claire was giving him up?).


I don't think they want to change their future. In this episode at least, their goal was only to get back to 2007/2008. I don't think they believed Daniel when he was talking about the variable.


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

Anyone else pick this up... Going to commercial break, before I could find my remote and hit fast forward, the screen goes black and a small picture of what looks like kids leaving school shows and goes away, then the text "what did you see?" was displayed with abc logo in the corner the whole time.

On iPhone, sorry for bad grammer and misspelling if any


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

In the scene where Eloise was telling Daniel to go with Widmore's expedition, the first time through I thought that maybe Daniel in 1970 had told her to tell him to go with Widmore, since he knew he'd probably do the opposite and not go, or something like that. Much better that she's in pain telling him to go. It'll be interesting to see who came up with the idea of doing that sacrifice, and why..


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

Test said:


> Anyone else pick this up... Going to commercial break, before I could find my remote and hit fast forward, the screen goes black and a small picture of what looks like kids leaving school shows and goes away, then the text "what did you see?" was displayed with abc logo in the corner the whole time.
> 
> On iPhone, sorry for bad grammer and misspelling if any


This explains it.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

I'm a lot less stressed now that I get the time travel for the most part, but there is still one aspect that bothers me, and will probably always bother me since it will never make sense. 

I totally understand the concept that the things that are occuring the in 70's HAVE to occur otherwise the cosmic order of events will be thrown into chaos. So Hawking sends Dan to the island, he time travels, then causes a chain of events that will likely lead to "the incident", and if this "incident" were to NOT happen, there would be MUCH graver catastrophe. Cool, I get it. What happened happened, and has to happen or things go boom.

What I don't get is the fact that every thing seems to be on a causal loop. Locke for instance. Locke crashes on the island, time travels to 1954, tells Richard about himself, then Richard facilitates his landing on the island. So Richard can't know who Locke is send him to the island, but Locke can't meet Richard without coming to the island. This in my mind is a catch-22, and basically collapses on itself. You can't have two events that CAUSE each other, it doesn't make sense. 

I've seen people make the argument that it would only be a paradox if one of those events DIDN"T happen, and that makes no sense to me. Two events that cause each other simply "exist" in the ether--no starting point. That's illogical to me on all levels. Everything starts somewhere. This is the same thing that's annoyed me with Terminator forever. Connor sends Reese back to protect his mother, but he wouldn't exist without sending Reese back, so how does he exist in the future in the first place? It will never make sense


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## toddvj (Apr 22, 2004)

Whatever happened, happened!


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## jhowell (Sep 19, 2006)

I speculate that instead of immediately using the H-bomb to cap the energy source, it will instead be put in place with a failsafe key to activate it as a last resort. It will eventually be set off by Desmond, but only after the events we have already seen have unfolded.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jhowell said:


> I speculate that instead of immediately using the H-bomb to cap the energy source, it will instead be put in place with a failsafe key to activate it as a last resort. It will eventually be set off by Desmond, but only after the events we have already seen have unfolded.


That's a good idea, except for the idea of Desmond and Locke living through an H-Bomb explosion.. Then again, the island does heal, and we have seen a later version of Locke actually rise from the dead. Ok, scratch my exception.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

I think it's still possible that there is an exception to "what happened, happened." And that Eloise knows that her son is the one person who can set into motion a course of events that does change things in some critically meaningful way. That would be a reason why she is not only willing to send her only son to be "sacrificed" (another Christian allusion, by the way), but that she is actively pushing for it. It would also be a reason that she tells him if he goes back, "I will be proud of you." The implication may be that he will be able to accomplish something to be proud of.

Even if Eloise sent Daniel back to the island simply because it was his destiny and that cannot be changed, I still loved it when Daniel said "We have free will. We can change our destiny." Even if the whole point of the show is that Daniel was wrong there, I sill liked hearing it. 

All in all, this show is getting better by the week! I am more confident than ever that where the writers are taking us will be a really rewarding destination (as well as giving us the rewarding journey).


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

OK, I do believe that we've *probably* seen the last of Dr. Faraday, but he is with the Hostiles presently... and they do still have the Temple... so who knows exactly what will happen next week.

Darn, Ellie's a cold-hearted woman.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> I thought it was going to be Kate who shot him, and not Eliose. Kate would have realized that she was on that plane being taken back to face murder charges. Why would she want that?


She wouldn't kill Daniel to prevent it though, not after what she's been through. Plus she's doubtful Daniel could succeed.



Queue said:


> Oh mah gosh. This is an awesome show.


Yes. Yes it is.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> I think it's still possible that there is an exception to "what happened, happened." And that Eloise knows that her son is the one person who can set into motion a course of events that does change things in some critically meaningful way. That would be a reason why she is not only willing to send her only son to be "sacrificed" (another Christian allusion, by the way), but that she is actively pushing for it. It would also be a reason that she tells him if he goes back, "I will be proud of you." The implication may be that he will be able to accomplish something to be proud of.


No, even the first time that I watched that scene, I told myself "Her face is practically cringing as she's saying this.. she's not proud of him for going at all, and she doesn't want to tell him to go, but she's got some reason she thinks she has to".


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

PKurmas said:


> OK, I do believe that we've *probably* seen the last of Dr. Faraday, but he is with the Hostiles presently... and they do still have the Temple... so who knows exactly what will happen next week.
> 
> Darn, Ellie's a cold-hearted woman.


I don't think he's done yet.


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## Dad (Oct 27, 2001)

philw1776 said:


> Danny Boy got back to 77 the same way Sawyer et. al. did.
> 
> I haven't a theory why Eloise sent him back except for her belief in "Destiny"


Right, DUH! So he really did leave the island when Sawyer said he did, and now he's back, with new theories.

As mentioned before, even with their current, crappy situation, some of them (like Kate), might not want to prevent the crash.

And, there can be no doubt any longer that Widmore staged the fake flight 815 crash.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> No, even the first time that I watched that scene, I told myself "Her face is practically cringing as she's saying this.. she's not proud of him for going at all, and she doesn't want to tell him to go, but she's got some reason she thinks she has to".


I noticed the cringe too. But the fact that telling him to go was so painful for her (and that she thinks she has to) doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't also make her proud by going.

During that scene itself, the cringe did seem to be a sign that Eloise was lying about being proud of Daniel if he would go. But given what happens at the end of the show, and her telling Widmore "Don't talk to me about sacrifice!" it could be that the cringe was simply signalling the pain of knowing that she was sacrificing her son. Perhaps Daniel would make her proud, but certainly not in the way he intends


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I didn't want Farady to die.  And I had no idea he would.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I thought that the way Eloise was going to convince Daniel to go to the Island was by telling him that he might be able to find a cure for Theresa.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

philw1776 said:


> First she apparently believes that awful things will happen if the past is attempted to be altered. Remember seasons ago when she was adamant with Desmond that he not alter his mission lest there be terrible consequences?


 This has always bothered me - if she knows what happened; and whatever happened, happened; why the urgency to convince Desmond?

Hawking's character never makes any sense - she spends a good part of her life making sure her life is tragic because she knows it will happen..?  I would find it more 'believable' if she spent her entire life resisting fate and found it impossible.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

MickeS said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
> 
> I didn't want Farady to die.  And I had no idea he would.


Posts like this make me giggle.

This is LOST, people! Even if he DOES die, Faraday could come back like Christian, Claire or wet Walt.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

What a bummer!! Poor Faraday....


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Sawyer: He still crazy?

Miles: He's on a whole new level, man.

Sawyer: Great.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Dad said:


> And, there can be no doubt any longer that Widmore staged the fake flight 815 crash.


What are you talking about? Do you believe that Sun slept with Jae as well?


Holy crap!
Fantastic episode as usual.
Poor, poor, Faraday.
Always fated to die at his own mother's hand.

Although when Daniel said "She was wrong"
I went "Whoops!"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> I think it's still possible that there is an exception to "what happened, happened."


Well, that's what I've been saying for some time now. That the universe is fundamentally broken, that things will only get worse, and that one major symptom of this is that what is happening isn't what happened (although I confess my initial guess--Linus dies as a child--obviously isn't the what's happening that didn't happen).

And I still suspect that the Lost crew in the present (i.e., 2007, Locke & Co), or rather the present they're in, is part of the problem. I'm just dying for them to explore the cosmology of what's going on on the island in 2007, and the fact that they keep ducking the issue makes me even more suspicious!


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## mikieminnow (Mar 16, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> *
> BEST
> SHOW
> ON
> ...


:up::up::up:


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## Frash (Jan 15, 2005)

What the heck did Faraday expect to happen if he goes wandering into a camp where just about everyone has a weapon, shoots the place up, then turns his back on the camp while pointing a gun at Richard?

It made the ending of a great episode sorta "meh".


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Great episode. I'm really intrigued by Faraday's newfound certanity that maybe the future CAN be changed - even though that certainty got him killed. It would be very much like the writers if Jack somehow made the plan work in the season finale, apparently changing what happened, then we fade out for the season...

Particularly if Rob is right, and the future's already been changed in Locke & Co.'s time.

Just as interestingly was Eloise Hawking's comment, when Penny asked her if Desmond would be okay. "For the first time in a long time, I don't know what's going to happen."


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Big_Daddy said:


> Just as interestingly was Eloise Hawking's comment, when Penny asked her if Desmond would be okay. "For the first time in a long time, I don't know what's going to happen."


Not really...she was just finally beyond the point where there were any information sources from the future.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Frash said:


> What the heck did Faraday expect to happen if he goes wandering into a camp where just about everyone has a weapon, shoots the place up, then turns his back on the camp while pointing a gun at Richard?
> 
> It made the ending of a great episode sorta "meh".


Yeah, I didn't understand why they brought guns anyway. It was the one problem I had with this episode and I wish the writers had come up with a different reason for Faraday to get shot by his mother. But, I was far from "meh". I loved this episode. I'll just have to rewrite that whole gun business in my mind.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> You need to stop getting high while watching this show, man... I can picture this bit of dialogue being the result of some good times. I'm reading it in the voice of the stoner from "Dazed and Confused". It is funny.
> 
> Anyway, like the rest of this season, I viewed this episode with "meh" attitude. Loved that the Dharma storyline finally moved, with some good shoot outs, Sawyer and Juliet being found out, Radzinsky getting shot (seriously wanna kick that dude's ass...). I also liked the Hawking stuff.
> 
> ...


This is presicely why I hate time travel shows. But I am heavily invested in Lost and I like the characters and the way the stories are told, and I'm much more interested in the battle between Dharma and The Others. Like you said, all this Time Travel stuff makes my head hurt. And actually, it all kind of made sense until last night when they said they COULD change what happened. I mean, what happens if they DO change things? Do the Losties just disappear like in Back To The Future, because the events that "proceded" the events in 2004 couldn't have happened? I actually think that with Mom killing Daniel (is he really dead or will he be brought back the way that Ben was) she was guaranteeing that things remain the way they happened, and that question won't have to be answered.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

The part that really sent a chill through me--and I don't know why it did--was when Faraday pointed the gun at Richard and started counting: Richard's face showed fear! Unless I misread the scene, it wasn't fear for the safety of the others in the camp, but an immediate, personal fear of death. The man (if he is a man) can die!


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> This has always bothered me - if she knows what happened; and whatever happened, happened; why the urgency to convince Desmond?


Because Desmond is an exception.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Frash said:


> What the heck did Faraday expect to happen if he goes wandering into a camp where just about everyone has a weapon, shoots the place up, then turns his back on the camp while pointing a gun at Richard?
> 
> It made the ending of a great episode sorta "meh".


Perhaps he KNEW what was going to happen to him, and this just provoked it. Perhaps what Faraday did was just his way of getting Kate and Jack, et al to take Faraday to the Others so that mommy would shoot him.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I have a fear that at the end of the series the whole show will be explained by the insane, nonsensical thoughts of a mentally handicapped person (like Faraday seemed to be in his crying state).


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


> The part that really sent a chill through me--and I don't know why it did--was when Faraday pointed the gun at Richard and started counting: Richard's face showed fear! Unless I misread the scene, it wasn't fear for the safety of the others in the camp, but an immediate, personal fear of death. The man (if he is a man) can die!


I think he was probably more concerned for Daniel's safety, since he knows he is a time traveller. He wanted as much info from him as he could, but he knew in that state, the "hostiles" were going to shoot him.

I'm more and more convinced every episode that Richard is the John Locke/Christian Shepherd of the Black Rock...


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## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> Perhaps he KNEW what was going to happen to him, and this just provoked it. Perhaps what Faraday did was just his way of getting Kate and Jack, et al to take Faraday to the Others so that mommy would shoot him.


This sounds right, especially in light of what he did with Dr. Chang to make sure he would do whatever it is that he is supposed to do.


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## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> The part that really sent a chill through me--and I don't know why it did--was when Faraday pointed the gun at Richard and started counting: Richard's face showed fear! Unless I misread the scene, it wasn't fear for the safety of the others in the camp, but an immediate, personal fear of death. The man (if he is a man) can die!


That's the way I read it too. Richard is such a wildcard in the show. I can't wait for his backstory next season! You KNOW it's coming.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Scubee said:


> That's the way I read it too. Richard is such a wildcard in the show. I can't wait for his backstory next season! You KNOW it's coming.


Interesting perception in that greenvine (which is linked off the MSNBC website, talks about how Richard didn't show any fear.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Interesting perception in that greenvine (which is linked off the MSNBC website, talks about how Richard didn't show any fear.


I wasn't sure what he was showing...seemed more like anxiety to me, but it was ambiguous.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Because Desmond is an exception.


So it would seem; but then her actions make even less sense. If an exception exists than everything isn't predestined and she could potentially change things (by influencing Desmond). Why would she encourage Desmond to follow through on a time-line that she knows will result in her killing her own son? And anyway; how could she possibly know what the consequences would be if Desmond didn't go?


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

I read it as that Aha! moment when Richard was able to place Daniel as the dude who told them to bury Jughead in Fonzie times. After all, Richard _knew_ Daniel was familiar, he just couldn't place him right away.

I didn't think it was fear. <shrug>


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Big_Daddy said:


> Great episode. I'm really intrigued by Faraday's newfound certanity that maybe the future CAN be changed - even though that certainty got him killed. It would be very much like the writers if Jack somehow made the plan work in the season finale, apparently changing what happened, then we fade out for the season...
> 
> Particularly if Rob is right, and the future's already been changed in Locke & Co.'s time.
> 
> Just as interestingly was Eloise Hawking's comment, when Penny asked her if Desmond would be okay. "For the first time in a long time, I don't know what's going to happen."


Well here's abit of a theory. Maybe Eloise *has* tried on many occasions *not* send Daniel to the Island only to be killed by her hand. And every time she tried something just as bad happened (like Desmond trying to prevent Charlie from being killed). Because she's been trying to undo the past, she's been living in some kind of time loop, which explains how she knows everything that's going to happen (kind of like Groundhog Day). At last, she had decided to let Daniel go (just like Demond let Charlie go). And now, for the first time in a long time, she doesn't know what will happen, because she's broken the Groundhog Day Loop.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I think we need at least one more Farraday episode, even if it's through someone else's flashback. I would still like to know more about his "illness", we know he was experimenting on himself and his girlfriend. What did they learn by doing that? Is that how Daniel created his journal? Where did all his journal info come from? What about Desmond being his 'constant'; did that ever come into play? And when did he make that video from Comic-Con with Dr Chang?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> So it would seem; but then her actions make even less sense. If an exception exists than everything isn't predestined and she could potentially change things (by influencing Desmond).


She did influence Desmond. She needed him to follow the particular path he did before he became the exception. We don't know why yet.



> Why would she encourage Desmond to follow through on a time-line that she knows will result in her killing her own son? And anyway; how could she possibly know what the consequences would be if Desmond didn't go?


I think those are both questions that season six will answer.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Time to write about my Lost theory that's been percolating in my brain most of this season (not specifically related to this episode, but to the last season or so of Lost, in general).

A popular theme in Sci-Fi is that the ancient Egyptians had access to some extremely advanced technology (far more advanced than ours). Some Sci-Fi (as well as some actual "way out there" theories in the real world) contend that this advanced technology was given to the ancient Egyptians by extraterrestrials.

Anyway... They have let us know in several ways that ancient Egyptians once lived on the island. There is the giant statue of an Egyptian god that once stood on the shoreline, and the interior of the "temple" is covered in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics.

So, my theory is that the ancient Egyptians built an underground machine on the island, that has the ability to manipulate time and space.

The "donkey wheel" is a human interface to the machine.

The immense well of "power" under the Swan Station is the machine's power supply. My guess it's artificial (but extremely long-lived), built and put there by the ancient Egyptians to power the time/space manipulating machine.

I'm thinking of the "Krell Machine" from _Forbidden Planet_. An underground machine, with an unimaginable immense source of power, with incredible capabilities. (I'll not expand on _that_ machine any further in case someone reading this hasn't seen _Forbidden Planet_ and doesn't want a spoiler.) The ancient Egyptian machine I'm proposing bears some similarity to that.

In building the Swan station, Dharma accidentally ruptured the machine's power supply, releasing tremendous energy. But, they found some way, by "pushing the button", to keep the energy in check.

I'll bet the fail safe device, somehow utilized the H-bomb to neutralize the power supply. The power supply "absorbed" the blast from the H-bomb. This is why the island was not simply destroyed by the bomb when Desmond turned the key.

Perhaps this is exactly what Daniel Faraday was trying to do. Perhaps Dharma's scientists figure it out independently.

However, perhaps they're *not sure* that the H-Bomb won't simply totally blow up the island, so they make it a last-resort measure: the failsafe key. Or, perhaps they want the power source intact, despite the need to "push the button", so they can study it.

Finally, for this theory to work, the time/space manipulating machine must have a *backup* power source. Because we know the donkey wheel still functions after the Swan station was destroyed. Ben successfully "moved" the island and de-stabilized the machine, and then Locke successfully re-stabilized it.

*Finally, a comment about this episode:*

What the hell was Daniel thinking walking into the others' camp brandishing a gun and pointing it at people?! Wouldn't it have been better for him to go in unarmed, arms open, and calmly ask for Eloise?

Best lines of the episode:

*Sawyer:* Is he still crazy?
*Miles:* Oh, it's at a whole new level!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wasn't sure what he was showing...seemed more like anxiety to me, but it was ambiguous.


maybe with a touch of curiosity too, like "wow - no one has ever tried threatening to kill me before", as if it couldn't be done.

Richard at that point DOES know that someday he'll give John a compass, that I don't think he'd given him yet in 1977 (can't remember if we know when that flash for Locke was). So maybe that's why he seemed confused at the idea? I need to rewatch that scene.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jhowell said:


> I speculate that instead of immediately using the H-bomb to cap the energy source, it will instead be put in place with a failsafe key to activate it as a last resort. It will eventually be set off by Desmond, but only after the events we have already seen have unfolded.





jkeegan said:


> That's a good idea, except for the idea of Desmond and Locke living through an H-Bomb explosion.. Then again, the island does heal, and we have seen a later version of Locke actually rise from the dead. Ok, scratch my exception.


I like that theory. I can see there being some explanation where the island energy might contain or absorb the energy from the bomb...something that makes it different from a regular detonation.



wprager said:


> Well here's abit of a theory. Maybe Eloise *has* tried on many occasions *not* send Daniel to the Island only to be killed by her hand. And every time she tried something just as bad happened (like Desmond trying to prevent Charlie from being killed). Because she's been trying to undo the past, she's been living in some kind of time loop, which explains how she knows everything that's going to happen (kind of like Groundhog Day). At last, she had decided to let Daniel go (just like Demond let Charlie go). And now, for the first time in a long time, she doesn't know what will happen, because she's broken the Groundhog Day Loop.


It seemed to me that they were making a point of showing that she was guiding Daniel toward his fate for his whole life. Making him stop practicing piano so he could concentrate on his career...at that age? She was making sure that he would go back to the island. Unless...she was trying to make him some sort of supergenius that would be able to work out something to change his destiny once he got there...


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> She did influence Desmond. She needed him to follow the particular path he did before he became the exception. We don't know why yet.


 If he's not an exception; then there's no need to convince him because his personal choice doesn't matter (yet), he is destined to push the button. 


> I think those are both questions that season six will answer.


I would hope so, but so far she has made no sense...


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> If he's not an exception; then there's no need to convince him because his personal choice doesn't matter (yet), he is destined to push the button.


Ah, but it wasn't 1996 Desmond that needed correction, it was 2004 consciousness-time-traveling Desmond controlling 1996 Desmond that needed to prevented from altering the past--something that should be impossible, but thanks to the failsafe event, isn't.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

How many episodes are left in the season?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> A popular theme in Sci-Fi is that the ancient Egyptians had access to some extremely advanced technology (far more advanced than ours). Some Sci-Fi (as well as some actual "way out there" theories in the real world) contend that this advanced technology was given to the ancient Egyptians by extraterrestrials.


So you're saying that Richard is Go'uld?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> How many episodes are left in the season?


1 regular ep, then the 2 hour finale.

3 hours, two weeks.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Hmm.. I just had a picture in my head of a nice 4-D painting of everything that happens, with all of the decisions being branch points, and for some reason I imagined it as a stream of blood vessles, with blood circulating through the picture but always in the same reinforcing way, every blood cell always making the same turn at each fork in the blood vessles, etc. Then a bullet gets shot from some 5-D location at this 4-D universe, rupturing some piece, and causing even one blood cell to travel in a different direction than it always did at that point, resulting in the whole system bleeding out through that hole (not necessarily creating some new self-reinforcing picture, but rather breaking the whole system). Maybe like you say Eloise had to patch up 5-D change attempts by Desmond, with his deciding not to leave Penny as that first blood cell trying to go another way, out of the 4-D picture.

Queue up the "Jeff is stoned!" comments.  For the record, though I enjoy beer quite regularly, I've never tried weed (or any other drugs for that matter) - my mind does that enough on its own, and with my addictive personality the last thing I need is something else to convince me not to do stuff.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Some things I'd like to see eventually settled (I believe they will be, but I'm realizing that so far we don't have answers to this.. this isn't the usual "Why haven't they answered this??!" whine from the less faithful, it's a "here's a list of things we're gonna see answered that they haven't answered yet" comment.  )

1) What's the deal with the Secondary Protocol that Keamy looked up in a 3-ring binder? I think it had a Dharma logo on it (not sure). Why would they have a protocol that if the island was going to be attacked, to go to the Orchid? To use the time travel device they made? (unlike what Ben did - blow past that to the real thing, the donkey wheel). That could use more flushing out..

2) The medicine in the Swan hatch, with 4 8 15 16 23 42 on it.. I'd like an in-show explanation of this (not trusting the Lost Experience thing).

So damned cool watching this all unfold.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Perhaps he KNEW what was going to happen to him, and this just provoked it. Perhaps what Faraday did was just his way of getting Kate and Jack, et al to take Faraday to the Others so that mommy would shoot him.


Eh, I dunno.. He looked pretty surprised when he saw that his mother was the one that shot him.. He seemed to just make the realization "You always knew! You sent me here knowing you'd do that to me!" when he said it.


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> What the hell was Daniel thinking walking into the others' camp brandishing a gun and pointing it at people?! Wouldn't it have been better for him to go in unarmed, arms open, and calmly ask for Eloise?


Yep, this is what bothered me too. I'm guessing he was off his rocker a bit because that didn't make sense.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

whitson77 said:


> Yep, this is what bothered me too. I'm guessing he was off his rocker a bit because that didn't make sense.


Maybe he wanted to test his theory and see if he would get killed. He SAID they could, but maybe he didn't really believe it and wanted to try the theory out himself.

I agree that it was weird otherwise.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

JYoung said:


> So you're saying that Richard is Go'uld?


More like Richard _may be_ an ancient Egyptian. Somehow made "immortal" (or given an enormous life span) by their technology.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

wprager said:


> Well here's abit of a theory. Maybe Eloise *has* tried on many occasions *not* send Daniel to the Island only to be killed by her hand. And every time she tried something just as bad happened (like Desmond trying to prevent Charlie from being killed). Because she's been trying to undo the past, she's been living in some kind of time loop, which explains how she knows everything that's going to happen (kind of like Groundhog Day). At last, she had decided to let Daniel go (just like Demond let Charlie go). And now, for the first time in a long time, she doesn't know what will happen, because she's broken the Groundhog Day Loop.


I like this theory. It makes sense because even if the Losties told Eloise about the future, she couldn't have been told everything, and thus would have still known what it was like to not know what was going to happen. On the other hand, if preventing Daniel from dying caused her mind to jump back to her earlier self, she would have experienced many of the same events over and over again. Maybe what started it was that she used Daniel's machine on herself, hoping to jump back to when she was on the island and stop herself from shooting him.

I also wonder if Desmond had anything to do with the changes she was trying to make. Perhaps she wasn't just being apologetic about what happened during this iteration of events, and Desmond and his family had suffered (even more) during some of her attempts to save Daniel.

Then again, she could have just meant that as, "For the first time, I don't know anything that's going to happen." But it would also explain why she pushed Daniel to go, and why she believed so strongly that certain things needed to happen. And unless Daniel lives somehow or he wrote down the information in his journal, it would also explain how she knew what would happen to everyone who Daniel fell in love with.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Because Desmond is an exception *a groper*.


*FYP*


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Test said:


> Anyone else pick this up... Going to commercial break, before I could find my remote and hit fast forward, the screen goes black and a small picture of what looks like kids leaving school shows and goes away, then the text "what did you see?" was displayed with abc logo in the corner the whole time.
> 
> On iPhone, sorry for bad grammer and misspelling if any


My hubby saw a quick flash of a wedding.

I saw a quick flash of a funeral where people were carrying away a coffin.

I also saw the one with the kids in the school yard.

I don't know if there were any others.

Looking back on the episode, I see how obvious it was that Daniel was going to die. Him saying, "Any one of us can die." The fact that we were finally getting a dedicated Faraday flashback. I should've seen it coming...but I didn't. I was still shocked and sad that he was shot (killed?).


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Ah, but it wasn't 1996 Desmond that needed correction, it was 2004 consciousness-time-traveling Desmond controlling 1996 Desmond that needed to prevented from altering the past--something that should be impossible, but thanks to the failsafe event, isn't.


But she failed in her persuasion - he wasn't 'supposed' to buy the ring - and yet he did and nothing changed...


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> By the way, I'd still like some answer as to why instead of building the hatch and the whole button system, they didn't just set up a remote timer to do whatever turning that key did, and do that (blow up the dam). Was the world any different after that happening (shy of an occasional picture frame changing?  )


That's the question, isn't it? I'm with Rob in wondering what exactly is happening back in 2007. Didn't Faraday say that his mother was wrong in sending them back to the island? True, life went on after the hatch exploded, but do we know that it did after they flashed off the plane and went back to 1977? Is it possible that the deserted island in 2007 is just part of the rest of the deserted world? And the Others and the people on the plane are the only ones still here for whatever reason? 
(no, I didn't smoke anything either )


mrdazzo7 said:


> My question is this... Hawking knows that in 1977 she killed a guy who said he was her son...
> 
> What I don't get is why would Jack and Kate even WANT to change their future?


There are larger issues at work here than Kate and Jack picking which version of their life they prefer. They just watched someone sacrifice himself to save the world.

So does this answer our question about whether Desmond remembered (or had in his head) all along that he talked to Faraday at the door of the hatch? Eloise always knew she killed Daniel--it didn't just occur to her when it happened in his time frame. 

When Eloise cringed at Daniel's asking if she's proud of him, I took that to be her sadness that he is still at this point trying to please her and thinking he's failing. That she hasn't convinced her son that she loves him and is proud of him. And this is her last chance.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

So nobody has speculated as to whether they just telegraphed the ending of the series to us. I think that what Faraday was planning to do is exactly what will happen. Jack, Kate, et al. will detonate Jughead and then Oceanic 815 will sail smoothly past the Island and land safely in L.A. My only question is whether this is the series finale, or whether this is the Season 5 finale, and then Season 6 has the characters trying to figure out what happened (maybe they still have their memories of the Island).


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Here's something that occured to me. Remember all the speculation about 2007 and the way Dharmaville looked abandoned? This also could explain why during the second plane crash the Losties were split in time frames. Consider that Jack, Kate, et al had to go back to 1977 to make what happened in 2007 happen. But in 2007, Dharmaville is different than what we expected it to look like based on 2004. So, what the Losties did in 1977 had a direct effect on what happened in 2007. And because 1977 events were different than what had originally happened in 1977 (i.e. they stopped the incident), any number of things that were considered mystical things on the island now are changed. For instance...

Because things were different in 1977, perhaps the events leading to Locke being paralyzed never happened, thus, when he comes to the Island in 2004, he could walk, and when he comes to the island in 2007 he's not dead. 

Events changed in 1977 changed the path of Christian Sheapard's life, and now he's alive on the Island (for reasons we dont' know yet). It might even be that Kate never kills her father, Claire has or doesn't have the baby, and any number of possibilities.

What do you all think?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I like that!


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

We've had multiple character flashbacks in episodes before... but this is a Daniel flashback episode and the character is always present in the scenes. So what justifies the scenes at the hospital with Desmond and Ellie? Because it's his mother? 

But it also made me think that the connection between Desmond and Faraday is a little more than being each others constant.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Here's something that occured to me. Remember all the speculation about 2007 and the way Dharmaville looked abandoned? This also could explain why during the second plane crash the Losties were split in time frames. Consider that Jack, Kate, et al had to go back to 1977 to make what happened in 2007 happen. But in 2007, Dharmaville is different than what we expected it to look like based on 2004. So, what the Losties did in 1977 had a direct effect on what happened in 2007. And because 1977 events were different than what had originally happened in 1977 (i.e. they stopped the incident), any number of things that were considered mystical things on the island now are changed. For instance...
> 
> Because things were different in 1977, perhaps the events leading to Locke being paralyzed never happened, thus, when he comes to the Island in 2004, he could walk, and when he comes to the island in 2007 he's not dead.
> 
> ...


Interesting
Whatever happened has not happened...yet!

They're on a mission to fix the universe...and right their lives as well.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> So nobody has speculated as to whether they just telegraphed the ending of the series to us. I think that what Faraday was planning to do is exactly what will happen. Jack, Kate, et al. will detonate Jughead and then Oceanic 815 will sail smoothly past the Island and land safely in L.A. My only question is whether this is the series finale, or whether this is the Season 5 finale, and then Season 6 has the characters trying to figure out what happened (maybe they still have their memories of the Island).


There would be a lot of grace in that. And if that does occur, my question is if they will have the memories......If you can actually change the past, would you be able to retain the memories of one version of the past?

BTW, anyone else think that _What lies in the shadow of the statue_ is _Jughead_. Hopefully that idea is not a smeek.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> We've had multiple character flashbacks in episodes before... but this is a Daniel flashback episode and the character is always present in the scenes. So what justifies the scenes at the hospital with Desmond and Ellie? Because it's his mother?


Only because it's part of the story they want to tell. It's just that simple. There are no rules for how a flashback episode does or doesn't work.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

Dad said:


> Buy why did Eloise send Faraday back if she knew she was going to shoot him.


why is everyone saying she sent him BACK?? this is how i understood the timeline before and up to this episode.

the first time faraday heard of the island was this episode. he was at oxford, then did his time jumping experiments, then he had brain damage. then widmore told him about the island. then eloise tells him to go to the island. then he goes, he gets better, then he time travels, then he's in 1974, leaves the island working for dharma, comes back to the island in 1977 and gets shot.

that is his string. he never heard of the island before 2004. his record skipped to 1974. years later is when the O6 came back, 1977, right? then he was in

wait a minute... he ended up in 1974, right? 3 years later was when the O6 came back, 1977. then daniel was in 1977. but widmore told him about the island in 2004, right? when he was crying. then the thing cut back to 30 years earlier, which should have been 1974, but was 1977? that's off, right?

anyways... when daniel got shot, he was in his present, so he had never been to the island before his first 1977... but eloise knew she shoots someone (does she know it's her son yet?) but presumably knows it's her son at some point. so that was HER past, but not daniel's past, rather his present.

this is how i understand the time travel thing so far. which is to say, not all too well.

someone needs to explain to me like a 5 year old how this new info is integrated into the old info. the variables, and the changing the future... and even the constants... how does the constants mesh with the whole time travel theory? how does the consciousness jumping mesh with the time jumping?



jkeegan said:


> 2) The medicine in the Swan hatch, with 4 8 15 16 23 42 on it.. I'd like an in-show explanation of this (not trusting the Lost Experience thing).


the numbers would be correlated with the hatch numbers.. a serial number... what the medicine is for??? don't know.



jkeegan said:


> Eh, I dunno.. He looked pretty surprised when he saw that his mother was the one that shot him.. He seemed to just make the realization "You always knew! You sent me here knowing you'd do that to me!" when he said it.


i was confused by eloise's face more... it had a look, like when she saw it was daniel, she knew something. but i couldn't decide whether the look was knowing (as in i knew i was going to shoot my son), menacing (no idea who daniel is, just shot an intruder), puzzled (i met you before, haven't i?)... must be the last one, now that i'm typing out loud...

anyways, explain....


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

toddvj said:


> Whatever happened, happened!


So Doris Day was right all along when she sang "Que sera, sera ... whatever will be, will be ... the future's not ours to see ... que sera, sera."


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

It's interesting how Eloise doesn't think much of Ben, while she's possibly even more evil and calculated than him.


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## jhowell (Sep 19, 2006)

It is my opinion that once Eloise learns in 1977 that a global disaster was only narrowly averted by the unlikely chain of events that we have seen in the series so far, she will then devote herself to doing what she can to make sure that events play out as she learns they must from the journal and the Losties. Her motivation is not wanting to risk having the time line change into a different and unknown (to her) path that may lead to a catastrophic release of the energy.

Here is my current theory. When Dharma taps into the energy, as Daniel predicted, it will help to convince Chang to take the precaution of installing the H-bomb failsafe, but the risks in detonating it make it a last resort. They cap the energy, but pressure builds up and must be released periodically to prevent an explosion. This energy has the power to alter reality when directed by human thought (Bens magic box, Fish Mans Krell device). The protocol is to release controlled amounts of the energy at moments when the nearby people are focused on the numbers. This is Dharmas attempt to put the energy to use for their own purpose.

More speculation: The energy may vent naturally at other points on the island. It could be the smoke. Perhaps it isnt one smoke monster moving around, but different releases of the energy each time we see it. What is does is controlled by the thoughts of those around it. For example, Ekos guilt over his brother and Bens anger towards the mercenaries.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm interested in finding out how Daniel knew that The Incident was going to happen on that specific day? Had he known about it since before he boarded the freighter? Did Widmore fill him in on all the Island specifics before he ever got to the Island, even though he had brain damage at the time? Did he simply figure all this stuff out in the time between arriving on the Island in 2004 and then skipping around and ultimately in three years (1974-77) in Ann Arbor? 

The reason I'm interested in knowing when Daniel knew is because it seems rather reckless of him to show up by sub less than 24 hours before the event he wants to prevent if he had known about it for a while. For all he knows, it will take days just to dig up Jughead, and maybe even longer to transport it to the correct location. Why did he think he was going to be able to accomplish all of that in just a few hours? Why not come back weeks before and spend the time building up his credibility with Dr. Chang so Dr. Chang would help him prevent The Incident.

But at the beginning of the episode, Daniel says to Miles that he came back because he saw a copy of the picture of the new recruits, which included Jack, Kate and Hurley. So it doesn't seem that he came back specifically to stop The Incident, but yet once he was back, there seemed to be an incredible urgency to prevent The Incident. Maybe I'm just not remembering. Was there something that he saw when he went down in the Orchid that made him realize that The Incident was going to happen that day?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> But she failed in her persuasion - he wasn't 'supposed' to buy the ring - and yet he did and nothing changed...


The small act of buying the ring was not ultimately important; going to the island and pushing the button were important. When he didn't buy the ring, it alarmed her, because he was altering his path. She corrected him. So, she succeeded in her persuasion.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> It's interesting how Eloise doesn't think much of Ben, while she's possibly even more evil and calculated than him.


Neither is evil, they just have goals that you may not agree with.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

bruinfan said:


> the numbers would be correlated with the hatch numbers.. a serial number... what the medicine is for??? don't know.


That reminds me of the whole thing of women on the island not being able to carry babies to term. And the medicine Ethan gave Claire and later Charlie gave her baby. And if pressing that button was saving the world, why did they leave Desmond, who they didn't even know, down there alone to do it? Surely even after the purge there were Dharma scientists in Ann Arbor who knew the danger.

I wonder if the Others and Dharma will work together to prevent the incident? You would expect the Others to know that what Dharma is doing is dangerous and purge them a little sooner. Then after the Incident, evidently Dharma just went on their way for 10 years or so, moving their bunnies around in time.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Magister said:


> Neither is evil, they just have goals that you may not agree with.


I think their goals are probably just fine. Saving the world and stuff.

It's their methods that some might find objectionable...


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## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

hefe said:


> Only because it's part of the story they want to tell. It's just that simple. There are no rules for how a flashback episode does or doesn't work.


This scene was not necessarily a flashback. It was the present or near present for those characters.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Rinkdog said:


> This scene was not necessarily a flashback. It was the present or near present for those characters.


Well, every scene is the present for the characters in them.

The point is, there's nothing to justify, as there are no rules about who gets to be in scenes, regardless of whether it's a flash back or forward. Whatever they want to show to tell the story, they will.


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## HDTivoDesire (Apr 6, 2003)

Charles Widmore can't be Daniel Farraday's father... they don't have the same last name!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm interested in finding out how Daniel knew that The Incident was going to happen on that specific day? Had he known about it since before he boarded the freighter? Did Widmore fill him in on all the Island specifics before he ever got to the Island, even though he had brain damage at the time? Did he simply figure all this stuff out in the time between arriving on the Island in 2004 and then skipping around and ultimately in three years (1974-77) in Ann Arbor?
> 
> The reason I'm interested in knowing when Daniel knew is because it seems rather reckless of him to show up by sub less than 24 hours before the event he wants to prevent if he had known about it for a while. For all he knows, it will take days just to dig up Jughead, and maybe even longer to transport it to the correct location. Why did he think he was going to be able to accomplish all of that in just a few hours? Why not come back weeks before and spend the time building up his credibility with Dr. Chang so Dr. Chang would help him prevent The Incident.
> 
> But at the beginning of the episode, Daniel says to Miles that he came back because he saw a copy of the picture of the new recruits, which included Jack, Kate and Hurley. So it doesn't seem that he came back specifically to stop The Incident, but yet once he was back, there seemed to be an incredible urgency to prevent The Incident. Maybe I'm just not remembering. Was there something that he saw when he went down in the Orchid that made him realize that The Incident was going to happen that day?


I interpret it as that the presence of Jack et al causes the Incident, plus Daniel used his fancy math to figure out when it was going to happen, with Jack et al being the varaibles. Or something.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> I interpret it as that the presence of Jack et al causes the Incident, plus Daniel used his fancy math to figure out when it was going to happen, with Jack et al being the varaibles. Or something.


Could be. I just hope it's explained at some point, regardless of what the explanation is.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I hadn't thought (until now) about the fact that there are 6 numbers (4 8 15 16 23 42) and the Oceanic Six left the island.

Maybe those are the six variables in the equation..


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> The small act of buying the ring was not ultimately important; going to the island and pushing the button were important. When he didn't buy the ring, it alarmed her, because he was altering his path. She corrected him. So, she succeeded in her persuasion.


 If the act of buying the ring is not important, why try to talk him out of it? And why would she be alarmed either way? She did not succeed in persuading Desmond to not buy the ring. How did she "correct" him?

And by her own words she should not need to be there anyway:


> DESMOND: Oh, my God. You knew that was going to happen, didn't you? [she nods] Then why didn't you stop it? Why didn't you do anything?
> 
> MS. HAWKING: Because it wouldn't matter. Had I warned him about the scaffolding tomorrow he'd be hit by a taxi. If I warned him about the taxi, he'd fall in the shower and break his neck. The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting. That man was supposed to die. That was his path just as it's your path to go to the island. You don't do it because you choose to, Desmond. You do it because you're supposed to.


And whether Desmond buys the ring or not he will end up on the Island, right? So why bother with the conversation in the first place?

My favorite blogger at DarkUFO, Vozzek69, touched on this topic today; this guy is consistently in my head. The parts of the post I think most relevant to this conversation are below; I agree with most of what he says, except for his explanation; I hope it's better than that!


> Destiny isn't something you can argue or bargain with - it's the fixed and unchangeable path down which you're meant to travel. Yet here's a young Ms. Hawking, once again trying to convince someone that they're destined to do something. She even tells us it's her 'job' to guide people along the right paths. Doesn't this contradict the very definition of a pre-determined future? If it's already Daniel's destiny to do the things he's supposed to do, why can't she let him play the piano for a while? Maybe even make him a sandwich?
> 
> Whatever Happened Happened...
> 
> ...


link


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> So nobody has speculated as to whether they just telegraphed the ending of the series to us. I think that what Faraday was planning to do is exactly what will happen.


It seems to be going that way. Would they make it so obvious?

I'll be glad to give this show a break for a while. Trying to make sense of their ever changing time travel rules just makes my head go in circles. Whatever happened, happened, except let's talk about changing everything so that plane crash that happened never happened.  

I'm even more baffled now by the button. Why wasn't that system automated again?


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

I get where Vozz is coming from. I can get on board with the idea of Destiny, and everyone has a purpose to fill, but that notion makes storylines like Hawking's totally pointless... If Dan had a destiny to end up on the island, then he would end up on the island, period. Having this all-knowing group of manipulating Destiny-pushers doesn't really make any sense, but whatever. These days I'm trying to focus on what I like about the show instead of getting bogged down in the stuff I find annoying (like that!).

As for them "changing" the events that lead to the plane crash, I honestly don't think that's where they're going with it, unless the season finale will be another game changer involving the plane landing safely at L.A.X, but then something else brings everyone to the island. I don't think they'll change what happened though. 

To be honest, my hope is that this season will end with everyone back in the right time, and next season will be a no-holds-barred battle for control over the island between Widmore, Ben, Hawking, "shadow of the statue" group, the survivors, and Christian. No more time travel, no more "You have a destiny...but you can't fulfill it unless I make you." BS. I want to get back to mystery (plausible myster), action, and SOLID character development.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> As for them "changing" the events that lead to the plane crash, I honestly don't think that's where they're going with it, unless the season finale will be another game changer involving the plane landing safely at L.A.X, but then something else brings everyone to the island. I don't think they'll change what happened though.


I know it probably won't happen, and it could be kind of a cop out on the show's part. All the events we've seen never happened, etc...

But what an emotional finale it would be if the Losties who have become friends and more have to chose to never meet each other by doing something to change the events leading to the plane crash.

Bringing up the possibility of it, like they did, leads me to believe that something will happen in this area, maybe this season's finale, but not next year's.

Should be great.

And yah, I agree with the people who said the very ending was puzzling. Puzzling that he'd bring the gun in the first place, and shoot up the camp. Richard has always seemed to listen to the crazy rantings of strangers that visit his camp without any persuasion.

-smak-


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> More like Richard _may be_ an ancient Egyptian. Somehow made "immortal" (or given an enormous life span) by their technology.


So there's a sarcophagus and a Stargate hidden behind the Donkey Wheel?


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

mrdazzo7 said:


> .......As for them "changing" the events that lead to the plane crash, I honestly don't think that's where they're going with it, unless the season finale will be another game changer involving the plane landing safely at L.A.X, but then something else brings everyone to the island. I don't think they'll change what happened though.
> ......


Way back when......didn't we have some evidence somewhere, that there was a (old?) Dharma station at or near LAX? If so, they could end the season with them landing safely at LAX, not knowing/remembering each other. Then, something happens at that station and whisks them away..........

Oh wait....now I remember.......didn't we see LAX pics on the Ajira Airways website. Maybe I am just remembering the "Lamp Post" station run by Eloise. Did this turn out to be where we see them Losties going to get help from Eloise to get back to the Island???


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## kcarl75 (Oct 23, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> I hadn't thought (until now) about the fact that there are 6 numbers (4 8 15 16 23 42) and the Oceanic Six left the island.
> 
> Maybe those are the six variables in the equation..


I think you might be on to something with this.


----------



## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

ElJay said:


> It seems to be going that way. Would they make it so obvious?
> 
> I'll be glad to give this show a break for a while. Trying to make sense of their ever changing time travel rules just makes my head go in circles. Whatever happened, happened, except let's talk about changing everything so that plane crash that happened never happened.
> 
> I'm even more baffled now by the button. Why wasn't that system automated again?


I think that Dharma figured as long as someone was pressing the button, then they still had someone on the island. If something happened to that person, ala the others, then the island goes bye-bye. Thats probably why there were still food drops going on there also.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

JYoung said:


> So there's a sarcophagus and a Stargate hidden behind the Donkey Wheel?


I don't even watch Stargate. So, I only have a vague 3rd hand understanding of what you're talking about.

Actually, as I mentioned in my first post on the subject, "Forbidden Planet" was more along the lines of another Sci-Fi story I was drawing similarities to.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

You've got to admit, Richard the Maybelline Man looks a lot like an egyptian with his makeup.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> You've got to admit, Richard the Maybelline Man looks a lot like an egyptian with his makeup.


"maybe he's born with it" 

Faraday pissed me off by getting himself killed without explaining his mother's motives for convincing the 6 to go back to the island. He clearly knew what those were, but of course, they never have time to talk about stuff that matters.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, that's what I've been saying for some time now. That the universe is fundamentally broken, that things will only get worse, and that one major symptom of this is that what is happening isn't what happened (although I confess my initial guess--Linus dies as a child--obviously isn't the what's happening that didn't happen).
> 
> And I still suspect that the Lost crew in the present (i.e., 2007, Locke & Co), or rather the present they're in, is part of the problem. I'm just dying for them to explore the cosmology of what's going on on the island in 2007, and the fact that they keep ducking the issue makes me even more suspicious!


Despite the fact that the producers told us what happened, happened and every time a character tries to change the past, they end up causing what happened to happen, you still hold on to this belief that the opposite of what we are seeing is true.

Also, it doesn't like in any flashback Ellie is married (you see Daniel at age 8, age 18-21ish), so where did the name Faraday come from?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> Despite the fact that the producers told us what happened, happened and every time a character tries to change the past, they end up causing what happened to happen, you still hold on to this belief that the opposite of what we are seeing is true.


No, I don't, but I'm not going to rehash the hundreds of posts I've made on the topic.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

The problem with the whole "Destiny should work without Hawking interfering" theory is that perhaps THAT is Hawking's destiny as well. The guy at DarkUFO seems to have overlooked that. It doesn't make her storyline and actions useless at all. Destiny involves human interactions as well.

Fairly ironic that Daniel was wrong in the beginning of the episode, and as Rob said, he really wound up more a Greek tragedy. Not only could he not change it, he winds up being a catalyst. Best foreshadowing line: "Do you need a gun to talk to your mother?" "You don't know my mother."


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Delta13 said:


> The problem with the whole "Destiny should work without Hawking interfering" theory is that perhaps THAT is Hawking's destiny as well. The guy at DarkUFO seems to have overlooked that. It doesn't make her storyline and actions useless at all. Destiny involves human interactions as well.


No one is overlooking that it's her destiny. It happened to her; so obviously that is her destiny, right?

What doesn't make any sense is that destiny would need to be consciously guided - or that it could be. "Making sure that destiny happens" is inherently contradictory.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> No one is overlooking that it's her destiny. It happened to her; so obviously that is her destiny, right?
> 
> What doesn't make any sense is that destiny would need to be consciously guided - or that it could be. "Making sure that destiny happens" is inherently contradictory.


Unless, of course, there is a forked road with two destinies, and she chose one branch Kwisatz Haderach style, which she was inevitably destined to do. And now she can't see the future anymore as a result. Hey... did this show rip off Dune?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I was disappointed that young piano playing Faraday didn't have a scraggly beard too.

Little girl Charlotte must have been thinking "Who is this creepy old dude? I'm going to start yelling if he gets any closer."

I surprised that none of the "bad" Dharma people chased Kate, Jack and Faraday after the fire fight.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I was disappointed that young piano playing Faraday didn't have a scraggly beard too.
> 
> Little girl Charlotte must have been thinking "Who is this creepy old dude? I'm going to start yelling if he gets any closer."
> 
> I surprised that none of the "bad" Dharma people chased Kate, Jack and Faraday after the fire fight.


He wasn't that good with the piano... I guess Eloise was right.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

bruinfan said:


> someone needs to explain to me like a 5 year old how this new info is integrated into the old info. the variables, and the changing the future... and even the constants... how does the constants mesh with the whole time travel theory? how does the consciousness jumping mesh with the time jumping?


so enough with speculating on what might be... freaking explain to me what is... what is faraday saying. since no one will explain it to me, cuz apparently either no one knows or everyone but me knows, i looked at the transcript...


> But... we can change that. I studied relativistic physics my entire life. One thing emerged over and over--can't change the past. Can't do it. Whatever happened, happened. All right? But then I finally realized... I had been spending so much time focused on the constants, I forgot about the variables. Do you know what the variables in these equations are, Jack?
> 
> JACK: [Chuckles] No.
> 
> ...


still confused.

a: how does the constants factor into time travel? by constants, i'm assuming he using the term as before, to stabilize the consciousness jumping.

b: how does the consciousness jumping mesh with the time travel

c: how does the 'variables' change anything. this whole time there have been variables. the way i see it, the variables have always been making free will and it always fell back to whatever happened happened. what changed?

the incident happened, so somehow, whatever faraday does or chooses shouldn't matter.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Faraday was wrong (now.. he was right earlier).

In this episode we saw a Faraday who had been away from the island for a while, who didn't have reminders in front of him that he already knows what happens.. After enough time, he'd naturally think "well hell, at least I should try!", which would lead to "hey, maybe I can save Charlotte!!! I miss her so much!!!"..

He tried changing what's going to happen at the Swan site, and it looks like he will fail. The last bit of proof we see that he actually realizes this (and that he realizes that what he'd known all along was actually true - that what happened happened) was when he sees his mother's face. He puts two and two together and realizes that she always knew that she'd killed her son when she was younger.. his expedition to go out and try to change things wasn't a "new" expedition - he had always tried making it right then.. and it always resulted in him being shot by his mother then.

What happened, happened.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Faraday was wrong (now.. he was right earlier).
> 
> In this episode we saw a Faraday who had been away from the island for a while, who didn't have reminders in front of him that he already knows what happens.. After enough time, he'd naturally think "well hell, at least I should try!", which would lead to "hey, maybe I can save Charlotte!!! I miss her so much!!!"..
> 
> ...


hmmm... i was under the assumption that daniel was the one that explained the rules... so whatever he says is canon. but what you're saying is that's not necessarily the case.

so is the whole variable thing a nonfactor? something he invented to make his new theory fit?

did daniel actually die?

and the big hole i keep seeing is that in 2004, eloise knew she shot her son in 1977, but daniel has never been on the island before 2004. so i'm waiting for that to be explained.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

bruinfan said:


> and the big hole i keep seeing is that in 2004, eloise knew she shot her son in 1977, but daniel has never been on the island before 2004. so i'm waiting for that to be explained.


What?? Eloise knew she shot her son starting in 1977 when she actually shot him. It's part of her history. It doesn't matter that in 2004, Daniel hasn't yet travelled to the Island. He ultimately will, and ultimately be sent back to 1977 where she shoots him. She already experienced that. He has yet to experience that in 2004.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

bruinfan said:


> still confused.
> 
> a: how does the constants factor into time travel? by constants, i'm assuming he using the term as before, to stabilize the consciousness jumping.
> 
> ...


I don't think he was referring to constants in the same way as needing a constant for consciousness time traveling. He was talking more mathematically. Prior to him going to Ann Arbor, he believe that whatever happened, happened. That any decision or action that they took in the past, had already happened. There was nothing variable about it. In his mind, it didn't matter what they did, they would do what history recording them doing. In this scenario they are constants. After spending time in Ann Arbor and researching and doing whatever, he has changed his position. He realizes that their decisions can be variable, thus they are the variables. Now, the real questions are why did he change his mind, and is he correct? Judging by the end of the episode, his new stance is incorrect and in fact whatever happened, happened. Though, I'm guessing Jack and Co. will try to change things like Faraday theorized but ultimately they won't change anything. By trying to prevent this incident, they will in fact cause the incident that history recorded. However, I could be completely wrong


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

bruinfan said:


> hmmm... i was under the assumption that daniel was the one that explained the rules... so whatever he says is canon. but what you're saying is that's not necessarily the case.


He said it, but I've thought right from the start that it was his own speculation, and that doesn't make it canon. Characters can be wrong. Or partly wrong.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

brermike said:


> What?? Eloise knew she shot her son starting in 1977 when she actually shot him. It's part of her history. It doesn't matter that in 2004, Daniel hasn't yet travelled to the Island. He ultimately will, and ultimately be sent back to 1977 where she shoots him. She already experienced that. He has yet to experience that in 2004.


which is where it gets messed up...SHE experienced it, but HE never has.

she shot him... however, how could she shoot someone that had NEVER been there before. this is what i was trying to get at earlier....

Daniel's string, or record, or timeline, tells us that the first he's heard of the island is in 2004. he had never been on the island until 2004, and the only reason he was on the island in 1977 is cuz he jumped there.

he was born, raised in england, went to oxford, studied time travel, got brain damage and forgets things, saw the plane crash footage and was crying (still not sure why), met widmore and first heard of the island, went to the island, then jumped around until 1974.

he's never been to the island to get shot the first time when eloise remembers it. so who did she shoot? unless they reveal daniel has been on the island before... that's the hole i keep falling into.



hefe said:


> He said it, but I've thought right from the start that it was his own speculation, and that doesn't make it canon. Characters can be wrong. Or partly wrong.


yeah, that would make more sense... it's just that ever since he'd been introduced, he was the time travel authority.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

bruinfan said:


> which is where it gets messed up...SHE experienced it, but HE never has.
> 
> she shot him... however, how could she shoot someone that had NEVER been there before. this is what i was trying to get at earlier....
> 
> ...


I don't think you are understanding the time travel on Lost correctly. There is no first time. There is only one time. This might help. Think of the events from Eloise's point of view. This is the sequence of events:

1954: Elle and Widmore capture adult Faraday and friends. They tell them to bury Jughead in concrete and then vanish.

1970 or so: Ellie gives birth to baby Faraday. Not sure the details here, but it should be around this time.

1977: Adult Faraday comes running into the Others camp and is shot by Eloise. She then finds out this is her son all grown up.

1978 or so: Eloise is off island with tween Faraday and makes him stop playing the piano.

2004: Eloise convinces adult Faraday to go to the Island.

2007: Eloise helps Jack and Co. get on Ajira 316.

There is no first time. From Eloise's point of view she shot her son when he was flashing back to 1977. 1977 was his present. Throughout his life, she knew he would end up there and be killed.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

i'm starting to get it.... just one question...

so since it's faraday's present, he couldn't have NOT been there to get shot? 

i see how it's eloise's past, so it happened, ... ugh... this is what happens when i try to analyze time travel... so it goes back to destiny? since it happened, once eloise gives birth to daniel, she knows his fate? so for daniel, it's also whatever happened, happened, cuz no matter what, he gets shot.

another question, (or maybe the same question asked a different way, i don't know anymore)

if it happened for eloise, what is driving daniel's present to converge with eloise's past? fate? destiny? so everyone's life has been predetermined by fate, by the actions of those in the past?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

bruinfan said:


> if it happened for eloise, what is driving daniel's present to converge with eloise's past? fate? destiny? so everyone's life has been predetermined by fate, by the actions of those in the past?


I think we have to use an Eastern conception of time as circular with no beginning or end rather than Western which is linear. One could view the Eastern conception of fatalism as being trapped in a wheel, and the Western conception as being predetermined by initial conditions. At least, this is basically how I've been thinking of it when they introduced "what happened happened".


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I'll be very disappointed in the show if they stray from "what happened happened" and move into alternate timelines or "fixing the broken universe." That plot device has been done to death in Star Trek, Back to the Future, Quantum Leap, Voyagers, etc. I have no evidence that Rob is wrong or right, but if he is right, I'll be very disappointed with the show reverting to a well worn sci-fi trope.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

See the rabbit in the glass? Click for a larger view.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

In the beginning Daniel says to Jack,"she was wrong, you don't belong here at all." So all this "we have to go backkkk" stuff is just a mistake? And Eloise really doesn't know what's going to happen or what to make people do? Or is Daniel wrong? The whole variable thing seems stupid to me. There's nothing about free will that he or every other scientist didn't think of before. You do have free will if there's no time travel, which there usually isn't. 

At the time when Daniel sees the plane on TV, he hasn't experienced any connection to it except meeting Desmond, who wasn't even on the plane. Why all the tears?

Theresa was out of body traveling like Desmond did. If Daniel was exposed to the same thing, did he do that? He's never mentioned having any knowledge of the future he isn't supposed to have. But maybe he just didn't remember.

Was I supposed to recognize the shapes engraved on the notebook his mother gave Daniel? That's the notebook he carries all the time?

Daniel seemed to do a double-take when he saw Richard. Is that because he didn't age since the 50's? 

When the hatch blew they called it an implosion. That fits in with the theory of the H bomb "sucking up" the energy... sort of.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

the electomagnetic release, aka the incident, is the reason women can't have babies...

like chernobyl... 

has this been said before?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


> See the rabbit in the glass? Click for a larger view.


Is that the same rabbit from the bus by the airport in season 1?


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> In the beginning Daniel says to Jack,"she was wrong, you don't belong here at all." So all this "we have to go backkkk" stuff is just a mistake?


I don't either was wrong. Daniel was right in saying "you don't belong here" because people just aren't supposed to skip willy-nilly through time, etc. But Eloise was more right because in 2004 Eloise knows that in 1977 she saw Jack & Kate with the man she shot in the back who she then found out was her son. So given the opportunity to help Jack get back to the island, of course she's going to... even if she doesn't know how they'll time travel to get to 1977, she knows they were back on the island & *chooses* to support that.

And anyway, I still don't think Daniel's going to be dead. Maybe they need to visit Miracle Max at the Temple, but Daniel's the son of two natives & was likely born on the island. He may even have been raised there but doesn't remember because his brain is full of holes. Just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't happen. We could even a 6-7 year old Daniel next Wednesday.


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## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

PKurmas said:


> Maybe they need to visit Miracle Max at the Temple, ...


Go away or I'll call the Brute Squad! We're Closed!

-MirclMax


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## bettyoops (Apr 22, 2007)

When Farraday said "THIS is our present" to Jack, it seemed clear to me that was the answer to their time travel. Since whatever time they are currently IN is considered their PRESENT, then they can change anything from that point on (just cannot change anything before that time.... unless they flash back to before it happened). Does that make sense? 

I have no idea how that would affect the future and I don't really care about any of it enough to debate it at length...I'm just enjoying the show immensely and based on what I've seen these past few years, I'm convinced that the producers can continue to entertain me the same way in the future!!

I agree that it's quite possible that Daniel will be healed in some way!!


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> No one is overlooking that it's her destiny. It happened to her; so obviously that is her destiny, right?
> 
> What doesn't make any sense is that destiny would need to be consciously guided - or that it could be. "Making sure that destiny happens" is inherently contradictory.


Why not be guided? Who knows how destiny works? I can't say that I do, but I'm fairly certain it isn't just everyone sitting around waiting for Destiny to make up it's mind about something. I think you're probably hung up on the "consciously" part. It really doesn't matter if Hawking was trying real hard or not - whatever happened, happened. She's just trying to help things along. Contrast and compare to Desmond saving Charlie over and over again.



TAsunder said:


> Unless, of course, there is a forked road with two destinies, and she chose one branch Kwisatz Haderach style, which she was inevitably destined to do. And now she can't see the future anymore as a result. Hey... did this show rip off Dune?


Whoa, interesting thought. Nah, they better not get all-blue eyes. But ... you could only get to Dune via special instructions from weird creatures (the Guild) who could bend space and time. Spooky. 



bruinfan said:


> so is the whole variable thing a nonfactor? something he invented to make his new theory fit?


The variable thing was a reach on Daniel's part to try and explain his new position. That's how I see it. Variables don't have to change. I think it raised the dramatic tension and made Daniel's attitude seem a lot less fatalistic by him adopting the "Yes We Can" mantra. So when mommy shoots him at the end and he knows the full truth, we feel the force of it as well. If he had died saying, "What happened, happened" it might have felt robotic.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Delta13 said:


> Why not be guided? Who knows how destiny works? I can't say that I do, but I'm fairly certain it isn't just everyone sitting around waiting for Destiny to make up it's mind about something. I think you're probably hung up on the "consciously" part. It really doesn't matter if Hawking was trying real hard or not - whatever happened, happened. She's just trying to help things along. Contrast and compare to Desmond saving Charlie over and over again.


I think you're hung up on what you think I'm hung up on. Suffice to say I don't see things the way you do. Can you handle that?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> In the beginning Daniel says to Jack,"she was wrong, you don't belong here at all." So all this "we have to go backkkk" stuff is just a mistake? And Eloise really doesn't know what's going to happen or what to make people do? Or is Daniel wrong? The whole variable thing seems stupid to me. There's nothing about free will that he or every other scientist didn't think of before. You do have free will if there's no time travel, which there usually isn't.


I think Daniel thinks it's a mistake for Jack to be in 1977, but since Eloise sent them back knowing they would go back to 1977, it's not a mistake.

Unless, of course, she has nefarious motives.

Daniel didn't know that Eloise knows that Jack & Co came back to 1977.

-smak-


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

There's a pretty interesting article on time-travel in the August 2003 issue of Wired that Daniel Faraday had lying around. I particularly like the part about "Thorne plates", here's a snippet:



> Unlike some other time machines, this Thorne-inspired design allows round trips. However, it can't take you back to a time before the machine was built. Here's how it works:
> Obtain four large conductive plates at least a few miles in diameter. Arrange them in parallel, very close together. The space between each plate will teem with negative energy - a proven phenomenon known as the Casimir effect - creating slices of identical space-time.
> Separate the plates into two pairs. A wormhole will connect the pairs like an umbilical cord.
> Place one pair in a rocket ship and accelerate to almost the speed of light, preferably in a circular path so the rocket doesn't stray too far. Time will nearly freeze for that set while the other, still on the ground, ages at the usual rate. With each passing moment, the space-borne plates will go farther back in time relative to the others.
> When a sufficient amount of time has passed - preferably decades - step between the earthbound plates. You'll immediately be transported back in time and across space to the other pair.


full article here: link


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Chang mentioned the Casmir effect in the Orchid Orientation video. He must read Wired too.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

Dad said:


> Buy why did Eloise send Faraday back if she knew she was going to shoot him.


Maybe some course of events he somehow set in motion by going back (whether he's dead or not, which we don't actually know) saved Eloise from dying.



Peter000 said:


> This is LOST, people! Even if he DOES die, Faraday could come back like Christian, Claire or wet Walt.


Not to mention Locke...



Fish Man said:


> More like Richard _may be_ an ancient Egyptian. Somehow made "immortal" (or given an enormous life span) by their technology.





Philosofy said:


> You've got to admit, Richard the Maybelline Man looks a lot like an egyptian with his makeup.


That was my first thought too - his eye makeup does look a bit like what you see in ancient egyptian art. I like this theory. :up:


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Chang mentioned the Casmir effect in the Orchid Orientation video. He must read Wired too.


Must suck waiting for the next issues to arrive by submarine though.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

bruinfan said:


> the electomagnetic release, aka the incident, is the reason women can't have babies...
> 
> like chernobyl...
> 
> has this been said before?


Why is it such a big deal if they got pregnant on the island or not, then? If Sun was 2 weeks pregnant when she got there and was exposed, she should be in as much trouble as if she got pregnant there 2 weeks later, but Juliet didn't think she would be.


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## JolDC (Dec 21, 2001)

bdlucas said:


> That was my first thought too - his eye makeup does look a bit like what you see in ancient egyptian art. I like this theory. :up:


Except that isn't makeup.

That doesn't mean he wasn't hired for that effect.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

JolDC said:


> Except that isn't makeup.
> 
> That doesn't mean he wasn't hired for that effect.


Sawyer called him the guy with the eyeliner, didn't he?


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

JolDC said:


> Except that isn't makeup.
> 
> That doesn't mean he wasn't hired for that effect.


You think they hired Nestor Carbonell because he looks like he wears eyeliner? Interesting. Bit of a stretch though, lol. I never got the obsession with whether or not he wears eyeliner on the show. I'm hardpressed to think of something that could possibly matter less.

With all the mysteries and unanswered questions on this show, the status of Richard's eye make-up would have to be at the very bottom of the list.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

This is almost a complete non-sequitur, but the Free Comic Book Day issue of Atomic Robo features a dinosaur and a robot arguing about whether time travel is logical while having a gun-fight. A dinosaur. And a robot. Arguing about whether something is logical.

I thought of our Lost threads while reading that...


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

aindik said:


> Sawyer called him the guy with the eyeliner, didn't he?


yes


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> This is almost a complete non-sequitur, but the Free Comic Book Day issue of Atomic Robo features a dinosaur and a robot arguing about whether time travel is logical while having a gun-fight. A dinosaur. And a robot. Arguing about whether something is logical.
> 
> I thought of our Lost threads while reading that...


 That's hilarious!


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## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

What dosen't make sence to me is how Faraday came to the Island on the sub. When he was the only person on the sub from the future.
And lets not count him out as dead yet.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> What dosen't make sence to me is how Faraday came to the Island on the sub. When he was the only person on the sub from the future.
> And lets not count him out as dead yet.


He came back in time with Sawyer, Miles, and Juliette. Then he left the island for Ann Arbor, and came back three years later just after Jack and company arrived.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

52.5 hours left!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> 52.5 hours left!


3 more hours


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## JolDC (Dec 21, 2001)

mrdazzo7 said:


> You think they hired Nestor Carbonell because he looks like he wears eyeliner? Interesting. Bit of a stretch though, lol. I never got the obsession with whether or not he wears eyeliner on the show. I'm hardpressed to think of something that could possibly matter less.
> 
> With all the mysteries and unanswered questions on this show, the status of Richard's eye make-up would have to be at the very bottom of the list.


No, I don't believe he was hired for that. Just pointed out that the eyes are natural so it wasn't added as part of the show's mystique.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> What dosen't make sence to me is how Faraday came to the Island on the sub. When he was the only person on the sub from the future.
> And lets not count him out as dead yet.


He's dead, Jim.

And he was not coming from the future. He was with Sawyer et. al. had left the island presumably on the sub 3 years ago in '74 and after a 3 year hiatus came back on the sub in '77.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> This is almost a complete non-sequitur, but the Free Comic Book Day issue of Atomic Robo features a dinosaur and a robot arguing about whether time travel is logical while having a gun-fight. A dinosaur. And a robot. Arguing about whether something is logical.
> 
> I thought of our Lost threads while reading that...


How utterly ridiculous. Everyone knows dinosaurs can't aim a gun worth a damn. 

Nice one, Rob.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

14 minutes to the new thread?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

wprager said:


> 14 minutes to the new thread?


See you in the next life, bruthah..


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

No no no! You're supposed to wait until Sunday!

Guess I know where *I *stand!


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> By the way, I'd still like some answer as to why instead of building the hatch and the whole button system, they didn't just set up a remote timer to do whatever turning that key did,


For the longest time I was convinced we would never get an answer to that and we were just supposed to not look too closely. Now I wonder if it might not have some answer, but I'll be damned if I can think of what it can be.



mrdazzo7 said:


> You can't have two events that CAUSE each other, it doesn't make sense.


Time travel to the past already doesn't make sense. But this version, that whatever happened, happened, doesn't make sense in far less dangerous ways than the alternatives (like the Back to the Future version). You can't criticize that without comparing it to the alternatives.

It's not that what happened has to happen to prevent some terrible imbalance. It's that what happened *already happened* so it's too late to change it. Going back in time _chooses the order in which you personally experience it_ but it doesn't actually change it.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, that's what I've been saying for some time now. That the universe is fundamentally broken, that things will only get worse, and that one major symptom of this is that what is happening isn't what happened (although I confess my initial guess--Linus dies as a child--obviously isn't the what's happening that didn't happen).


You had me convinced that this was a real possibility for a while, but I'm coming back to thinking this isn't the case, that even during and after The Incident, whatever happened, happened. I'm still not ruling it out entirely, but I am doubting it more, after this and the next episode.



Frash said:


> What the heck did Faraday expect to happen if he goes wandering into a camp where just about everyone has a weapon, shoots the place up, then turns his back on the camp while pointing a gun at Richard?


The whole gun thing is kind of new to Faraday and the story is going a direction he didn't expect. He was out of his depth.



DevdogAZ said:


> So nobody has speculated as to whether they just telegraphed the ending of the series to us. I think that what Faraday was planning to do is exactly what will happen. Jack, Kate, et al. will detonate Jughead and then Oceanic 815 will sail smoothly past the Island and land safely in L.A.


Oh, I really doubt that.



jkeegan said:


> I hadn't thought (until now) about the fact that there are 6 numbers (4 8 15 16 23 42) and the Oceanic Six left the island.
> 
> Maybe those are the six variables in the equation..


An interesting idea. It brings the Valenzetti thing full circle with Faraday's speech (which I thought was otherwise a bit specious).



latrobe7 said:


> What doesn't make any sense is that destiny would need to be consciously guided - or that it could be. "Making sure that destiny happens" is inherently contradictory.


If "whatever happened, happened", plus, people find this out, then it is inevitable that some people will get it in their heads that it can be changed, even if it can't. And it's also inevitable that some people will get it in their head to prove to the others that they can't or shouldn't change things. This thread is proof of that. Ultimately, time didn't _need_ Hawking to restore or preserve destiny. _That's just what happened._ And whatever happened, happened. If she and her cohorts hadn't gone around telling people what to do, something different would have happened... _and would always have happened_; there wouldn't be some other branch (the one we saw) that got changed or displaced, it would never have happened in the first place.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Exactly!


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Hunter Green said:


> If "whatever happened, happened", plus, people find this out, then it is inevitable that some people will get it in their heads that it can be changed, even if it can't. And it's also inevitable that some people will get it in their head to prove to the others that they can't or shouldn't change things. This thread is proof of that. Ultimately, time didn't _need_ Hawking to restore or preserve destiny. _That's just what happened._ And whatever happened, happened. If she and her cohorts hadn't gone around telling people what to do, something different would have happened... _and would always have happened_; there wouldn't be some other branch (the one we saw) that got changed or displaced, it would never have happened in the first place.


Yes, yes; the mechanics of it have never been in question (for me). But that does not change the fact that Hawkings actions are not consistent with someone who believes that whatever happened, happened, even though she is the character who first begins to explain these rules.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I'd say Hawking has her doubts. It's hard enough for us to accept it watching a TV show. If you were living it, it might be harder still. That's a slightly specious answer, though. I think it's something we have to accept only because, if everyone acted precisely as the world's rules required, the audience would never get an explanation of things they could follow.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I suppose. I just don't accept that she behaves in a way that any real person would. It's my problem, I know. 

I have similar issues with Danielle Rousseau and how she spends her 16 years on the island.


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